# Training with a tennis ball as reward?



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Someone told me today you can train with a favorite toy as a reward instead of a treat. Eko is getting increasingly DA and I've been walking him with a muzzle lately, kind of wondering how to take it from here. I use a prong collar on walks so he doesn't drag me towards other dogs, also. 

I've mentioned before he is not food motivated, at all, he spits out any kind of treats I give him and the second he sees a dog he won't take it anyway. The prong lets me have barely enough control over him to hold him in place and stay on my feet, and I have mixed feelings about an e collar. I would really like to use a reward kind of training to get him to ignore other dogs, like the treat training where we stay far away and I use treats to distract him and work our way closer over time. 

So would a ball work for this? If so, how would I do it? Throw it? Kind of tease him with it so he stays focused on me? What command would I need to use for this, if any?


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I found this picture on another recent topic, I want to post it here if that's okay because it is almost exactly how Eko looks at other dogs and small animals. Except he doesn't show his teeth or growl until the dog gets close, and his tail is usually wagging a lot straight up like that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would be working with an experienced trainer on the aggression if you are not already doing so. If the aggression is increasing, help is in order. I would rely more on their read of the actual dog than the chart.

I can't comment on using a ball as a distraction aid, though I do use one as a reward and play a short bout of tug with it (ball on string). 

Elite Working Balls with T-tug Handle-Elite K-9


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree Nancy. I wrote up a long counter conditioning post and deleted it. 

I think you need some professional help with this dog Sarah.

David Winners


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The first step in getting control is intense, on-going, rock solid obedience training and focus, then proofing with major distractions at close quarters. 

This isn't going to happen with treats, a tennis ball, or overnight, though high-value rewards can be part of the foundation training. Best thing to do, as suggested by others, is to find an experienced trainer (NOT petsmart), have a long-term plan, and work, work work! It can be done, many of us have been there, but it does take consistency and commitment.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Check the Tyler Muto vids to see how to use leash pressure to control your dog when on walks. 
Tyler Muto - YouTube

It would be my guess that the dog won't walk well for you even in an enclosed car park or what ever with no distractions. I see male dogs being walked and they smell everything and pee where they want. When you want to control a dog on leash you start to stop them sniffing randomly and only let them pee when you stop and allow them.

You change the routine of the dog getting excited when you pick up the leash or your coat. Basically good dog behavior starts at home and then you try to carry the good behavior as you go. If the dog is pulling you out the drive way, you are in for a dragging match which the dog excells at and you get frustrated and demoralized with.



> Someone told me today you can train with a favorite toy as a reward instead of a treat.


Ball drive/Prey drive. If a dog wants to get a ball so much you can then get him focused on that rather than on a distraction. You need to develop up this drive over time if you want it to be powerful enough to refocus a dog from an other dog or cat. It is possible. But you should be aiming for obedience first in return for the ball play and build this up and then try working with distractions.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm with the others in finding outside help. I did want to point out though too, if your dog already highly values tennis balls or a specific toy, it could make the situation worse. Eko could have even more incentive to keep another dog away for fear that it is after his favorite toy now too.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My problem with tennis ball as a reward is that its generally fetching and the dog isn't interacting with the handler. The problem with your dog is that he's aggressive so you'd actually have no idea if he would not go for the tennis ball and just go for the dog. My boy is very into tennis balls, we sometimes call them his pacifier because if he has one in his mouth he's very calm (he's energetic, but not aggressive in anyway). If we go to the beach, and I have a tennis ball in his chuck-it, he will ignore everything going on around him (including dogs) and just focus on the tennis ball. He's actually almost bumped into children while walking because he's staring at the ball and not what's in front of him. But like I said, I have no aggression issues in the first place.

So...if you can get one on a string, or just a regular tug, and start giving it to him as a reward for looking at you and ignoring the other dogs, that's fine. But I'm not sure how throwing a tennis ball is really going to help you in this situation.

If he's so ball motivated that if its out and he ignores everything...use that on walks for now, but know that its not a guaranteed method of training this behavior out of him.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Kahrg4 said:


> I'm with the others in finding outside help. I did want to point out though too, if your dog already highly values tennis balls or a specific toy, it could make the situation worse. Eko could have even more incentive to keep another dog away for fear that it is after his favorite toy now too.


One thing I know for sure after raising 4 dogs....

Is that if a few weeks go past with a training issue and not only is it not improving but getting WORSE..

Then clearly I don't know what I'm doing and I need more help. Real help. Timely help. And one on one help for ME.

Cause the truth of the matter is, I can't blame the dog for not improving when it's ME, as the teacher, who is failing the dog in getting across what I need to. And just blaming the dog and upping the PUNISHMENT isn't actually helping me teach.

Leash collar -> choke collar -> prong collar -> e-collar -> hit with a 2 by 4 over the head until they listen......................

There are MANY in between steps that can be used and missed just cause we don't know what we don't know. PLUS there is a good chance we are making things WAY worse because of what we don't know and aren't doing.

Please, stop trying to fix this by yourself. There is no way people trying to help on this forum can replace the eye and timely help/recommendations of a professional trainer right there beside you.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Take a look at some of the articles in Whole Dog Journal that address this. They work with the dog well below threshold and gradually build up as the dog's comfort increases so does his threshold. I think Pat Miller is the one that authors the articles I am thinking of. To me this is what you want rather than a prong/shock/choke collar. Very different approach although the distractions are part of it.
I would look for a trainer that uses the methods Miller advocates.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I also think you should get a good trainer, who knows GSDs well, to help you with this. If you're using a prong and Eko is still able to almost pull you off your feet, it's time to fix it, asap. Good luck


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

If he is not food orientated then rewarding with treats won't work for you. Anything can be used as a reward, you need to find his 'prized possession' whether it be a kong, or ball or squeaky toy. I know people that train using a rubber ball on the end of a robe as the reward - the dogs responds really well.

With tennis balls, there is evidence that the glue and/or material (can't remember which now) can contribute towards breaking off the tips of their canine teeth, so maybe a firm rubber ball might be better.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

MadLab said:


> Check the Tyler Muto vids to see how to use leash pressure to control your dog when on walks.
> Tyler Muto - YouTube
> 
> It would be my guess that the dog won't walk well for you even in an enclosed car park or what ever with no distractions. I see male dogs being walked and they smell everything and pee where they want. When you want to control a dog on leash you start to stop them sniffing randomly and only let them pee when you stop and allow them.
> ...


He will walk on the leash at my side and not pull if it's just us on the street, if there are people he will pull and if there is a dog or a cat he will pull. He still on occasion will try to pull when a car goes by, but I just have to correct him a little bit and he will stop. 

Our humane society has a class for reactive/aggressive dogs, a friend told me about it I'm not sure it's a good idea because he would have to be muzzled because other dogs are there, he would still try to attack them and I'm afraid they would attack him back and he wouldn't be able to defend himself. Is that an option or does it need to be one on one training?

I like the ball on a string I was linked to, that looks like something he would really like!

That also makes sense what someone said about he would be worried someone was after his ball, he is also very aggressive around toys and bones, used to be aggressive around food and water.

I do know a trainer who I have had come to my house before, if you guys think the humane society class is a bad idea I will give him a call, and I am ordering one of those balls on a string I think that would really help me out as far as a reward for training.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

If your dog has a good prey drive, nothing can compare with a tennis ball for a reward. I have always started out with high value treats to teach the basics of "whatever" with a game of fetch at the end of each training session.

After a little while all of my dogs would spit the treats out with the anticipation of playing ball. Most of my lessons last around 15 minutes or so with some going to a half hour or so, you have to be able to read your dog to tell when enough is enough. With the half hour lessons I break it up with a game of fetch in the middle. I see so many people here and at other sites who have the same problem you have with your dog heeling. Teaching a dog to heel and to heel off the lead is one of the easiest things in the world to do if done properly from the get go. And yes it does involve a prong collar, the Lew Burke method is the best and shortest route I know of, success with this method is humane and the fast results will amaze you. Any qualms you have about the ecollar are unfounded, it is one of the most amazing tools in your training arsenal if used with common sense. With this tool you can tweak all known task to perfection and stop any unwanted behavior.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Deno said:


> If your dog has a good prey drive, nothing can compare with a tennis ball for a reward. I have always started out with high value treats to teach the basics of "whatever" with a game of fetch at the end of each training session.
> 
> After a little while all of my dogs would spit the treats out with the anticipation of playing ball. Most of my lessons last around 15 minutes or so with some going to a half hour or so, you have to be able to read your dog to tell when enough is enough. With the half hour lessons I break it up with a game of fetch in the middle. I see so many people here and at other sites who have the same problem you have with your dog heeling. Teaching a dog to heel and to heel off the lead is one of the easiest things in the world to do if done properly from the get go. And yes it does involve a prong collar, the Lew Burke method is the best and shortest route I know of, success with this method is humane and the fast results will amaze you. Any qualms you have about the ecollar are unfounded, it is one of the most amazing tools in your training arsenal if used with common sense. With this tool you can tweak all known task to perfection and stop any unwanted behavior.


I just don't think I'll use the e collar right and I'll end up hurting him. I don't think it's bad I just don't trust myself to do it right.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Training with a toy is great. My bigges concern would be using an object that INCREASES excitement in a situation in which the dog is overly stimulated. Could end up a recipe for disaster. You lose a bit of control once the reward is given. Even a ball on a string. You don't give it and then get it back in an instant. There will be moments, in the beginning minutes, where training stops so you can get the ball back. Those moments are crucial. 

If it's used to condition a response first, away from distractions, then introduced with distractions at a huge distance, maybe. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> Someone told me today you can train with a favorite toy as a reward instead of a treat. Eko is getting increasingly DA and I've been walking him with a muzzle lately, kind of wondering how to take it from here. I use a prong collar on walks so he doesn't drag me towards other dogs, also.
> 
> I've mentioned before he is not food motivated, at all, he spits out any kind of treats I give him and the second he sees a dog he won't take it anyway. The prong lets me have barely enough control over him to hold him in place and stay on my feet, and I have mixed feelings about an e collar. I would really like to use a reward kind of training to get him to ignore other dogs, like the treat training where we stay far away and I use treats to distract him and work our way closer over time.
> 
> So would a ball work for this? If so, how would I do it? Throw it? Kind of tease him with it so he stays focused on me? What command would I need to use for this, if any?


You are on the right track with using a toy for reward, key is to know when to reward and when not to as it builds more drive towards it. In your situation I would focus on 2 things,

1. Increase your value exponentially to the dog so he engages in any distraction and stays engaged (you reward after longer periods of 100% engagement)
2. Now use obedience to control


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Try this for building engagement. Walk around show toy to dog and as he comes to get it push him away and walk away making him follow you. Then release and reward. Repeat for a month 2-3 times a day. Do not let him focus on anything other than you. If he does you walk away, when he engages with you, release/reward. Stretch the engagement period from 2-3 seconds to 2-3 minutes in 20-30 sessions, then go back to rewarding at 5 seconds of engagement. Next go for 5 minutes and give a command like "sit", release/reward. Now you set the routine where you tease him tease him walk away, push him off, walk away, tease him then "sit" release/reward. Use this routine for 20-30 sessions.

Add distractions, your friends clap and make noise, dog runs towards them they freeze. Dog gets nothing, he finally looks at you, you run away exciting voice, he comes towards you, you release/reward. And so forth, till he understands, you are his universe.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Packen said:


> Try this for building engagement. Walk around show toy to dog and as he comes to get it push him away and walk away making him follow you. Then release and reward. Repeat for a month 2-3 times a day. Do not let him focus on anything other than you. If he does you walk away, when he engages with you, release/reward. Stretch the engagement period from 2-3 seconds to 2-3 minutes in 20-30 sessions, then go back to rewarding at 5 seconds of engagement. Next go for 5 minutes and give a command like "sit", release/reward. Now you set the routine where you tease him tease him walk away, push him off, walk away, tease him then "sit" release/reward. Use this routine for 20-30 sessions.
> 
> Add distractions, your friends clap and make noise, dog runs towards them they freeze. Dog gets nothing, he finally looks at you, you run away exciting voice, he comes towards you, you release/reward. And so forth, till he understands, you are his universe.


Thank you, that's very helpful in getting me started on the basics! Seems very simple, we sort of play games like that anyway and he loves it


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

Just want to comment on the reactive/aggressive dog class. In classes i have been they wont let dogs just run around off leash and only introduce other dog in very save way for all involve. Ask about that class it may be good for you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> I agree Nancy. I wrote up a long counter conditioning post and deleted it.
> 
> I think you need some professional help with this dog Sarah.
> 
> David Winners


Yes!!! and Yes!!!! A professional trainer can give you more valuable input in 5 minutes than anyone on the web that's never seen the dog.

As far as a reward, you do not want a reward you throw that sends the dog away from you. You either want food or something to tug. You may have to build the value for the food and reward. A trainer can help you with that as well.


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