# Faking a SD



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

So someone I know made a comment about getting a vest for a friend's dog off the internet so the dog could be taken places.

I of course told them this was a huge issue with me but I wasn't sure what the actual legal ramifications (sp) are if a person is caught.

Can someone point me in the direction of some easy to understand legalalities that I can send on?


Thanks a million!!


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Here barb I found this. 
https://www.certifymydog.com/Home_Page.html

If my breathing trouble continues after my surgery then I am thinking of seeing about getting Hella my GSD Certified as a SD.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think that is not a real organization. Just a money making web site where people like the person Barb was talking to coulg get official looking stuff to abuse the system.

Anyone can get stuff for any dog. You don't have to prove anything, your dog does not have to meet any criteria (you only click on a button that sais that your dog meets "most" of the criteria) - and after that, you pay for your kit. 

I think there is a bit more to that to getting a service dog certified . . .


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

The person who is considering passing their pet dog off as a Service Dog needs to understand that the dog has NO special access rights, only the DISABLED PERSON whom the dog is helping does. 

In other words, if she is NOT disabled in a way where she would require the dog to do normal, everyday things, she could not take the dog anywhere even IF the dog were an actual, certified Service Dog.

As far as the legalities go, I am not sure whether there is a federal statute that would cover this, but in California (for example), passing a dog off as a Service Dog is a misdemeanor and can be punished by at least 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine. 

See - http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070901-9999-1n1dogs.html


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Certify My Dog
https://www.certifymydog.com/

Service Animal Registry of America
http://www.affluent.net/sara/

Those two organizations, as well as any other organization that offers registration or certification of Service Dogs over the Internet, without ever having personally seen or tested the dog, are not reputable registries and do NOT offer anything other than worthless pieces of paper and/or fake Service Dog ID tags. It's the same as printing the stuff up on your home computer.


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I was really hoping this would be a federal offense of some sort so I'd have some real ammo to perhaps get this person to stop. 
I don't think me just saying it's wrong is going to do it.


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

What state is your friend in?


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

TJ - Here in Oregon

And in case anyone is thinking this is about me and Dante (got some PMs) it's not.

Though I am not disabled this is a HUGE button for me and I would NEVER lead people to believe that Dante is a service dog!


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Doing a quick look at your state laws I can't find anything on fakers. You can always contact your State's Attorney General and ask them. 

State Attorney General
Oregon Department of Justice
1162 Court Street NE
Salem, OR 97301-4096
General phone number: (503) 378-4400
General email address: [email protected]


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

As always, thank you TJ!!


----------



## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

I seen something like this the other day here in Michigan. I was getting gas and there was a young girl maby 19 in a new BMW with a tiny very mean dog that was attacking people. When the person told her to leave she said it was a service dog and she did not have too because of such. She when asked said she was blind. The person running the store backed off because was saying she would have her daddy sue then into the ground if they gave her trouble. However after the secound time the dog tryed to bite me sense it was a 20' leash I told the girl to take it out now or I would call the cops and the store owner was really happy I helped out. They need to pass a federal law that cracks down on this kind of crap.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

You know, this is kind of a funny topic, because when we read in the newspaper that a business denied access to a service dog, we always get upset. 

But much of the time, I wonder, whether the dog in question was a legitimate service dog at all. 

I've been in stores where pet dogs aren't allowed, turned the corner and come face-to-face with people with SDs. Most of them are wearing harnesses or vests. Some of them are mild mannered, glance at my SD (as he does them) and we walk away. But others grumble, glare, bark, and growl.

Now, I belong to a service dog club, and as far as I can tell, all of the members have legitimate disabilities and fully tasked trained dogs. But some members aren't very good about keeping up their training, so some SDs do get grumbly, do pull on lead, etc. 

But dogs that growl and lunge? I can't imagine any trained SD ever doing that upon meeting neutral dog.

What I'm saying is that there are a lot of frauds out there. But who is going to turn them in if there were a federal law? Businesses that simply question their customers get a bad reputation (you can google all the nasty comments yourself). Businesses that ask poorly behaved dogs to leave (which is within their right) are blasted in the news. 

Will you turn someone in? I have an old dear family friend whose husband is a "faker." He has a slight hearing loss (that I never knew about until they told me their dog is an SD) and a very poorly socialized fear aggressive toy breed dog that he takes everywhere. (But the dog can't be set on the floor with kids or other dogs). He says the dog barks when other dogs or people approach, thus "warning" him.










I'm not going to turn them in. It annoys me, and they know how precarious my medical situation is and how much effort and time it took to train Camper and now Celo. They were amazed at how well trained 3 month old Celo was when we visited, that he simply lay under the table at my feet in a peaceful "settle" while kids, adults, and other dogs created complete chaos around us. 

All of these people may think they're getting away with something, but they know the truth. I know someone who needs and uses an SD, when he meets a faker, simply asks: do you really want to fake being disabled? Because I assure you, it's no fun. 

So having a law on the books might be helpful once in a great while, maybe possibly as a deterrent. But folks like this have no shame. They think they're clever and getting away with something cute. I don't see that a law would change it. 

Maybe I'm just too cynical.


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

It's wrong but as I understand it, there's no registration board and stores can't ask to for the dog's ID. There should be.

I've seen all kinds of fakers too who just want to take their dog in the store.

Yeah, I'd like to take Morgan to walmart becuase she does perform a service as the head child herder. She know where they all are when I take her to the playgound and it's quite helpful. Still, it's wrong so I don't. Somedays the kids need a leash, not the dog!


----------



## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

if you see a guy walking into a store holding onto a seeing eye dog its not hard to tell its a real service dog. when you see a spoiled rich woman walking into a store with a little fashion accessory. kick the little [REMOVED] our the door. if it bites, threaten to have to dog euthenized....


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote: if you see a guy walking into a store holding onto a seeing eye dog its not hard to tell its a real service dog. when you see a spoiled rich woman walking into a store with a little fashion accessory. kick the little [REMOVED] our the door. if it bites, threaten to have to dog euthenized....


It is not up to you to decide if the dog being carried is in truth a SD or not. If you are the owner or worker at a place of business then you may ask if the person is disabled, if the dog is a pet/SD, and if the dog has been trained tasks to mitigate the person's disabilities. If the dog is allowed then to enter as a SD then the owner can then only be told to take the dog out if it does not act in a proper SD manner.

Also you may want to check the board rules on the Censored words Announcement --> LINK


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:
> Also you may want to check the board rules on the Censored words Announcement --> LINK


And mention grabbing a dictionary at the same time....


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

What I don't understand is why there is no registry or ID required for a service animal. 

The govt. went through the trouble of saying a snake cooling some guy's neck is not a service animal. 

Why can't there just be a little test that TDI (or some other national organization) administers for $5 or $10 then you get a badge in the mail for your dog. 

You get the badge, put it on a chain around your dogs neck, people stop faking it and nobody has to explain when a shopkeeper who's caught in the middle asks why do you need a service dog. 

Or is that just too bloody simple for the federal government to handle?


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

For the same reason that there is no national test for police service dogs. You do NOT want the government mandating standards for anyone. They cannot run the post office and the VA...............

Very difficult to set standards and have competent folks administer a cert. The ADA does have guidlelines for service dogs.


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'm not saying they should run it at all! They'd mess it up and I'd end up paying for it.

Just pass a law that the dog has to take the same test as they administer for a therapy dog - which is basically a CGC where they throw food on the floor and walk by the dog with a cart full of food. Or it was when Luther took it.

Then they issue the dog a number and an ID. TDI is already in that realm so it wouldn't be a jump.

Instead there's just people running around passing their little nippers off as service dogs and people who really need a SD pay the price in emotional strain.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The problem with the test is that almost any dog can still pass. Kenya has passed two different organizations tests (West Michigan Therapy Dogs and TDI) and she is not a good candidate for being a therapy dog. Training-wise she is perfect, but she is aloof towards others and intolerant of children, which I find ironic since our therapy training instructor suggested she join the Ruff Reader program where kids read allowed to the dogs. I thought she might be good for it too b/c she is well trained and patient but more recent events have shown me she has no interest in befriending children so for her sake, therapy will not be one of our activities. Coke on the other hand cannot pass the test consistently yet he already comes to work with me to meet DH's "Kids" (he works for a program for teens with mental and physical handicaps). Coke loves this "job" and all the kids love him.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: The problem with the test is that almost any dog can still pass. Kenya has passed two different organizations tests (West Michigan Therapy Dogs and TDI) and she is not a good candidate for being a therapy dog. Training-wise she is perfect, but she is aloof towards others and intolerant of children, which I find ironic since our



You are correct. The CGC is the same. No proper evaluation of the stability of a dog.


----------



## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

There is a test for service dogs called the public access test. It takes 2 to 2 and a half hours to go through and is usually administered by a panel of judges. It has some of the same elements in it that a cgc or tdi test have, but these elements must be accomplished in a busy mall or somewhere where there are lots of people and kids and strollers and other dogs, loudspeakers and other distracting sounds. When Tyr took his test his recall and stay were done in the middle of a busy mall next to a food court. Another section of his test was done in the china department of Pennys. His test also included a sit down meal in a nice restaurant with a lot of people around and other dogs crammed under the table with him and these dogs weren't dogs he knew. Also, dogs don't, in most cases, get to take the test once and then rest on their laurels. Many, if not most certifying agencies (if you are lucky enough to find one) have you retake the test either every year or every other year to make sure you have kept your dog's skills well polished. 

Many agencies, like CCI have a great many dogs who can pass the cgc but not the public access test and they place them as 'companion' dogs to be used in the home. Many of these dogs perform more than a dozen tasks for their disabled companions--but they cannot pass the public access test. Those of us who have trained our dogs through the public access test level so that we can have our dogs out in public and justify the laws giving us access get very upset about the fakirs who take advantage of all oiur work to pass their dogs off as service dogs when they are not, haven't had the training and couldn't pass the public access test even if they had the training. I always remember that one bad apple can spoil the barrel for all of us. 

Just as an example, the search and rescue dogs going to New Orleans after Katrina were forced to make the trip by buss because Southwest airline refused to fly them. Why? Well, because some idiot foisting a pot bellied pig off on the airlines as a 'service animal' just before the catastrophe had the pig go berserk on the plane and savage a cabin full of passengers. With that fresh in the airline officials' minds, they refused to transport the dogs and the result was that people died because they weren't found in time. So faking that your dog is a service dog is no small, trivial thing. People need to remember that every service dog is an ambassador for all of us and the dogs--and people--need to remember that. khawk


----------



## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote: Well, because some idiot foisting a pot bellied pig off on the airlines as a 'service animal' just before the catastrophe had the pig go berserk on the plane and savage a cabin full of passengers.


There was also a moron who tried to claim his snake was a service animal because "He has neck problems and the snake cooled his muscles." Now, you all know how much I love snakes but I'm sorry, you can't even compare them to a dog as far as logic and training goes. Claiming that this animal knowingly served doing tasks for it's owner that he couldn't do himself is a joke. And on top of all that, snakes are supposed to be WARM not cool!!! If they feel cool, they need to warm up. So if the snake is cool all the time, the guy is actually abusing it!

People like him and the lady with the pig give all SD teams a bad name, and it's really sad that their BS stories will pass with most people because they trust that the crap they're making up is true.

-Jackie


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Just a refresher for those who forgot and as a quick FYI who may not know about Charlotte ...

Charlotte the 300-pound Vietnamese potbellied pig flew on US Airways on Oct. 17, 2000. The owner claimed the pig was a "therapeutic companion pet" that kept her stress level down and was needed because of a heart condition.

The pig became disruptive during landing and refused to leave the gallery after trying to enter the cockpit. 

LINK 


_The airline, embarrassed, filed an incident report with the FAA based on passenger complaints. As the Boeing 757 landed with 200 passengers, the pig awoke, tried to barge into the cockpit and stormed into the galley, refusing to leave until a passenger tossed food at her, according to an airline report. _

Another link showing the pig was not potty trained and was not a suitable traveling companion but did not physically harm any of the passengers. 

Passenger was a Pig 

As is often the case, many in the news media do not do any research beyond the basic info to throw together a story. One person writes a story and sends it out over the news wires as a Press Release and others grab the story, add a couple of lines and pass on the story as their own. Here again they mix the terms service animal with therapy animal. They did it in 2000 and they continue to do it now in 2009.


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

And here is another man with a "service snake" ...

Quote:
_Greene, who lives outside Shelton, suffers from epilepsy, a neurological disorder characterized by unprovoked and reoccurring seizures. He said the snake, its reddish-brown body draped around him like a necktie when he’s out in public, senses when a seizure is imminent and gives him a light squeeze. The warning gives him enough time to take medication to head off the attack, alert someone it’s coming or move to an area where the thrashing is not disruptive._

And parts of another quote from the same article:

_Darryl Heard, a University of Florida researcher who studies snakes, ... Snakes have sensitivity to vibration and could pick up warnings in the body before a seizure, similar to how tremors precede a volcanic eruption, he said. ... “You might get subtle muscle vibrations or there may be changes in blood flow that the snake is detecting,” said Heard, the associate professor of zoological medicine at the university’s College of Veterinary Medicine. ... Heard said there are risks in using a snake in this manner. A boa constrictor could mistake Greene in the midst of a seizure for struggling prey and apply a life-threatening choke hold, he said. 

“I certainly wouldn’t have a boa constrictor around my neck,” Heard said._

Article published Sept. 24, 2009
LINK


----------



## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

I maintain that this is BS. A snake MAY be able to sense these warning signals before a seizure, but there is NO WAY that boa constrictors have the mental capacity to respond reliably and in a trained way. Gives him a light squeeze?! How in the







is this guy claiming the "seizure squeeze" is any different from a normal squeeze response just to hold on??? <u>ALL</u> of my snakes give a light squeeze when on a neck or shoulder or arm! 

That whole article just makes me









And as for the so-called "expert," who says "I certainly wouldn't have a boa constrictor around my neck," I would think a snake researcher of all people would know enough to know that a calm, docile adult is just fine around your neck if you know how to handle them. I have NEVER been injured or hurt in any way and I've had countless numbers of times where I had a snake around my neck.

-Jackie


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I assume he meant he wouldn't want a snake around his neck if a seizure was imminent. I base that on the fact that he said that a constrictor could confuse the convulsions as "stuggling prey" and go into a choke hold


----------



## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote:I assume he meant he wouldn't want a snake around his neck if a seizure was imminent. I base that on the fact that he said that a constrictor could confuse the convulsions as "stuggling prey" and go into a choke hold


Ahhhh...I stand corrected...I bet you are right. I was quite surprised that an expert would say that the way I originally interpreted it...Thanks for clearing it up!

For the record, the other guy who owns the snake is still an idiot.









-Jackie


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

hmm maybe that is what he is mistaking as a "warning" from the snake? it's sensing weakness in the first vibrations of an impending seizure? maybe it's just getting a better hold for the death struggle?


----------



## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

LOL! Never thought of it that way, but it certainly could be true! There's just no way any snake would have the intelligence if you will, to remember, recall, and consistently carry out ANY task, let alone seizure response! They're just not trainable animals, as much as I wish they were!

-Jackie


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I see no reason to make this a federal issue. I see it more as a state issue.

Those of you that live in a city where you can take a bus or a train or a taxi cab anywhere and the liklihood of finding a test in your area is good, may not realize that when you live away from the city finding a test like this that I have never even heard of might place a burden on the owner of the service dog. 

I think that there should be some type of social worker for diabled persons and that there should be someone trained to determine the validity and necessity of a service dog and whether the dog is suitable to accompany the person anywhere. When you are disabled and need a dog's services, then you fill out a lengthy application. This is application will be sorted and reviewed by a licensed social worker (who faces having his/her license pulled) and documents about the disability signed by a doctor (who faces having his/her licensed pulled) and if all is in order, a government employee trained in examining the animal in question should be dispatched to provide a training/temerament test. This person would not have to be trained to measure the dogs ability for helping the person, just the suitability of the dog to be allowed where dogs are normally not allowed. If the dog passes that, then the state issues a service dog license. The service dog license would be required to be carried like a gun permit. 

Once a service dog is licensed, all expenses incurred by the dog should be tax deductable. 

There is only one thing missing: something that validates that the dog provides the service. 

The disability is validated by the doctor.
The dog's behavior/temperament is validated by the testor.
The need for the dog is validated by the doctor. 

Whether the dog can really sense siezures or a oncoming heart problem or whether the dog's presence enables an individual to carry on with life when otherwise they would not be able to is largely up the individual.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: PhazewolfI seen something like this the other day here in Michigan. I was getting gas and there was a young girl maby 19 in a new BMW with a tiny very mean dog that was attacking people. When the person told her to leave she said it was a service dog and she did not have too because of such. She when asked said she was blind. The person running the store backed off because was saying she would have her daddy sue then into the ground if they gave her trouble. However after the secound time the dog tryed to bite me sense it was a 20' leash I told the girl to take it out now or I would call the cops and the store owner was really happy I helped out. They need to pass a federal law that cracks down on this kind of crap.



There already is a federal law. If a service dog is threatening others, a business owner can ask them to leave. Just because the dog si a service dog does not mean they are allowed to threaten or attack other people. 

Info from the ADA website:


> Quote:
> (from http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm)
> 
> 10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?
> ...


----------



## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

The issue was she did not have a service dog at all. She said she was blind and that the dog acted like a guide dog but she was driving a brand new car which last time I knew was not legal if you are blind. Plus how can the dog be a guiding someone when it's on a 20+ foot flex lead?


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think what Chicagocanine was saying is that even IF the dog were a REAL SD with a REAL disabled person, store owners can STILL ask them to leave IF the dog behaves inappropriately - like growling or barking at other customers.

There is NO reason the store owner couldn't ask this person to leave, especially since they obviously were NOT blind and did NOT have a real, trained SD.


----------

