# New to the site, question about breeding.



## leah* (Mar 15, 2012)

Hello!  My name is Leah and my family and I own a male German Shepherd, his name is King. I am not even really sure what to say to ask this question so I will just jump right in with the background info...

Two years ago King wandered onto the property where my mom was selling hot dogs and he was friendly from the start, he became her sidekick quickly and became protective of her. We took King to the vet and they checked him out, they believed he was 8 years old and he was in good health- he only needed to put on some weight and we were told that because of old age his hips were not as strong (he drags his back legs). A tattoo was also found in his ear, but it was too faded to read.

Weeks went by and no one seemed to be calling the local shelters for him so he became ours, he worked with my mom everyday. One day a van pulled up and a man and his wife got out and said that King was their dog. They pulled out his papers and even his passport from when he was a puppy (he came with them from Poland). They were very cold and King looked terrifed, they said that they just figured he went in the woods to die and that is why they did not look for him. They left without him and took his papers. King's age was also confirmed by his papers and the vet was right, he was 8 years old.

Now King is going on 10 years old. He is an amazing dog and my family would love one of HIS puppies. So here is my question...can King still produce sperm at his age to get a female pregnant? And would anyone at all allow him to since he has no papers? (not asking anyone one here, just asking if anyone would do it in general). Or would you recommend hunting down his papers? The people who owned him said they worked in a warehouse near the property where King was found, but that was 2 years ago, so who knows if they are still their or if they even kept his papers.

We are not interested in money or breeding show dogs- we would only want a puppy that came from King. I am just looking for opinions, I am not one of those crazy people who breeds dogs mindlessly for the money or just to do it 

I am look forward to hearing some responses, thanks in advance!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Before I start, brace yourself. You're very likely going to get answers that you don't want to hear. 

You could find a lot of people that would be more than willing to breed their poorly bred GSDs to your male. Without his papers, any health clearances, or any titles to speak of, no reputable breeder would want him near their females. 

Please don't breed him. You said he drags his back legs. Do you know exactly why, or are you assuming it's hip displaysia? 
You don't have his papers, so therefore, you know nothing of his background. The dog in front of you is only half of the equation (or less, actually). If he has dogs in his pedigree that have a tendency to produce aggressive dogs, nervous dogs, or have health problems such as epilepsy, they could be passed onto his puppies.

Unless you want to go the scientific route and find someone who's willing to donate one of their female's eggs, fertilize it with his sperm in a petri dish, then have a surrogate parent to carry the single puppy, then by all means, go for it. But if you only want ONE puppy that's his, do not breed him.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> Before I start, brace yourself. You're very likely going to get answers that you don't want to hear.
> 
> You could find a lot of people that would be more than willing to breed their poorly bred GSDs to your male. Without his papers, any health clearances, or any titles to speak of, no reputable breeder would want him near their females.
> 
> ...


To clarify what Konotashi is saying about hip displaysia, it's genetic, meaning your dog could pass that on to his pup. Do you REALLY want to have another dog with that, and possibly have it worse than his is?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'll just add that I'm glad King found your mom and your family and you were able to give him a good home. There are many, many more german shepherd dogs out there like King and lots of them are available for adoption.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I know you'd like another king... we'd all want our favorite dog back if we could, but what about the other 7 puppies in the litter? What happens to them? There are plenty of very good breeders breeding some very good dogs. It's not easy, but there are other very good options out there when King eventually passes.

Plus no one with a halfway decent female would breed with your dog. Nothing against your dog... he just doesn't have health testing, a pedigree to look at and analyze, titles, etc.

Here's a good chart for anyone interested in breeding their pet:


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## leah* (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks for the responses! And I completely understand what you are saying and it all makes sense. I kind of expected those answers, but I needed to see them anyway and have them explained with helpful/intelligent insight (which you have given me).


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Good for you for having an open mind. Most people who ask this question get responses they don't like and just storm off. This is a rare occasion we have here... someone actually willing to listen to advice.

Stick around. You'll get plenty of good info here.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I just want to say thank you for saving King and keeping him away from his 'previous' owners. I agree with other in that you should not look to having King breed. There are reputable breeders and many puppies in shelters that need saving. Please consider this before making your decision. I wish you and King all the best!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Good for you for having an open mind. Most people who ask this question get responses they don't like and just storm off. This is a rare occasion we have here... someone actually willing to listen to advice.
> 
> *Stick around*. You'll get plenty of good info here.


:thumbup:


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Sounds like King found his final home with you. Like everyone else said with out a back ground and not knowing do not breed him. Just love him everyday and build up them memories. All dogs have their differnt places in their owners hearts. King is lucky to have found your family


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Did you get a good look at his papers? Even if this dog was viable and ticked off all the check boxes as far as a good stud dog, he's only half the equation. It would probably take more time and work to find a female and setup a pedigree that would result in something you are confident will be like King than just get a puppy from his lines or from his breeder.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You said the man from Poland had King's papers. . . . if you want a dog like King, a good bet would be to see if you could track down the papers again. If you could give us some of the names in the papers we might be able to help you track down someone who is breeding relatives of his.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something else; even if you knew King's background, his genetics, and found a fantastic female, the likelihood of getting another King is very remote. Dogs do not produce carbon copies of themselves. Very often what you get is more a reflection of the grandparents.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Beside all the awesome info you have been giving breeding is not risk free....by any means. The male or female in question can be severely injured, and even die during the breeding process. I just went through this with my male a little over a week ago and let me tell you it was traumatic and expensive. He was pulled from the female tearing his actual penis from top to bottom and all the way around the shaft. He lost a lot of blood, had to have emergency surgery which was almost $1,500.00 when it was all said and done, and could still get an infection that would most likely kill him at his age. He's 9 and spry on a side note if King drags his back leg at 10 I would look into DM or hip dysplasia which both can be genetic


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Someone posted something like this months ago, and the best response (or reason not to do this) is that if you do get a puppy from King, the chances of it being like him are very small, and you're going to always be comparing the new dog to King. All of his "faults" will seem much bigger to you, so its just better to start fresh, with the same lines, or maybe even different ones so that you don't expect a clone of King.

Also lets face it, you got yourself a pretty mature dog at 8 years of age, you have no idea what he did/how he was trained in the first 8 years of his life. You got to witness the calm, relaxed temperament of a senior dog, you'd have no idea what he was like as a puppy of adolescent. If you want the same kind of dog, adopt another senior, that way you'll know exactly what you're getting.


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## leah* (Mar 15, 2012)

Emoore said:


> You said the man from Poland had King's papers. . . . if you want a dog like King, a good bet would be to see if you could track down the papers again. If you could give us some of the names in the papers we might be able to help you track down someone who is breeding relatives of his.


 
I would love to find his papers, I am going to ask my mom to see if we can try and hunt them down. It would be so cool to have them. I wonder if we did find the people if they would even give the papers up? They were very rude, but then again they did not seem to care for King at all so it shouldn't be a big deal. I will keep you updated.


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## leah* (Mar 15, 2012)

Zoeys mom said:


> Beside all the awesome info you have been giving breeding is not risk free....by any means. The male or female in question can be severely injured, and even die during the breeding process. I just went through this with my male a little over a week ago and let me tell you it was traumatic and expensive. He was pulled from the female tearing his actual penis from top to bottom and all the way around the shaft. He lost a lot of blood, had to have emergency surgery which was almost $1,500.00 when it was all said and done, and could still get an infection that would most likely kill him at his age. He's 9 and spry on a side note if King drags his back leg at 10 I would look into DM or hip dysplasia which both can be genetic


 
Oh wow, I am so sorry that happened to your dog  I wish him a speedy recovery! Thank you for your insight, everyone has been great with responses. We definitely won't be breeding King, I would never want to cause harm to him or his puppies.


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## drosado (Aug 9, 2011)

I was in your shoes once. Rudi also claimed us. He showed up at our house one day in 2000. He was an amazing dog. Vet said he was purebred and he looked and acted like it in every respect. He had also been neglected by his previous owners. We wanted a pup from him so bad, but because we didn't have papers and other considerations mention here, we decided against it. He died of lung cancer in July 2010. I was devastated and had many moments of regret at not breeding him. One month later, we contacted a reputable breeder and pick out our R.D. I wouldn't change anything. We were meant to have Rudi and we were meant to have R.D.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the dog is dragging a back leg at 8 years old, if it is an injury well that is not the end of the world, but if it is a genetic weakness (yes, imported dogs have the same problems as dogs due stateside), then you would not want to perpetuate that. 

Let's think about breeding the un-papered dog. He is imported from Poland, so if you breed to a dog of like type without having any near ancestors imported from Poland, you can probably avoid near-in breeding. If the dogs are similar in build and type, you can possibly get puppies out of them that share some of the similarities. But understand that this would have to be a total out-cross (since you really do not know what dogs your dog is related to so you have to avoid any dogs from that area and hope that is enough). With an out cross it is unlikely to have a uniform litter. 

Let's talk about temperament. The dog seemed terrified of his previous owners, and it seems protective of your mother. These are statements that as a breeder makes me cringe a little. The previous owners are not ogres. They let your mom keep the dog. I doubt they did anything to the dog that should make him cringe or fearful two years later. Dogs live in the present. What you have to remember about temperament is that you can get temperament similar to your dog or similar to the dam, or any negatives in temperament can be exaggerated in the puppies. So this is something to be cautious about.

You love this dog and want a puppy out of him, but it is possible for him to provide 14 puppies. Where will the rest of these puppies go? You know the dog is pure-bred, but the people who might buy the puppy cannot and really should not take your word for it. So the people willing to give the puppies a home, will be limited. There are a lot of dogs out there without papers needing homes. Some dogs who do have papers are dumped, but the chances of a puppy with papers getting a home are just better. So deliberately producing a litter of puppies that will not be able to be registered, is really not acceptable, unless you are willing and able to choose one for you, and one for the bitch owner, and cull the rest. I know that is extreme, and I couldn't do that. But when you think of the millions of dogs out there, if everyone wanted to produce just one litter to be able to have a pup out of their dog, you can multiply the current dog-population by seven and you can see that there are just not enough potential owners. So in that respect, breeding the dog is unwise.

Ok, now let's look at the fact that the dog is ten years old, and has probably not been used before for breeding. (If you breed your dog to a bitch without papers, there is always the possibility that you are breeding to one of his daughters.) In the past two years he has not been used to the best of your knowledge. There is a chance that his sperm production and quality has gone down in that time, so that he cannot sire a litter. I would not count on it, but it is possible. 

If the dog has never been used for breeding before, there is also the possibility that after he is used for breeding his temperament can change. It may not be as easy for your mother to handle the dog, especially if there is a female anywhere within a couple of miles that goes into heat. He might start marking on everything, inside and outside. That is just a possibility. 

German Shepherds are awesome dogs. The idea of cloning dogs makes me scratch my head. I love that our dogs have different personalities, and each is an individual. Your dog's puppies may be nothing like their sire in temperament or in looks. And you may get lucky in one or the other, but your best bet is to love the dog you have, and learn everything you can about him. And when he goes, get another dog from similar lines as your dog.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

leah* said:


> Oh wow, I am so sorry that happened to your dog  I wish him a speedy recovery! Thank you for your insight, everyone has been great with responses. We definitely won't be breeding King, I would never want to cause harm to him or his puppies.





selzer said:


> If the dog is dragging a back leg at 8 years old, if it is an injury well that is not the end of the world, but if it is a genetic weakness (yes, imported dogs have the same problems as dogs due stateside), then you would not want to perpetuate that.
> 
> Let's think about breeding the un-papered dog. He is imported from Poland, so if you breed to a dog of like type without having any near ancestors imported from Poland, you can probably avoid near-in breeding. If the dogs are similar in build and type, you can possibly get puppies out of them that share some of the similarities. But understand that this would have to be a total out-cross (since you really do not know what dogs your dog is related to so you have to avoid any dogs from that area and hope that is enough). With an out cross it is unlikely to have a uniform litter.
> 
> ...


I think you spent time typing all that out when she already said she wasn't going to breed King. Sorry..lol 

I do agree that cloning a dog is outright creepy. Why would you want to do that??? I doubt that they can clone experiences in the dog's life so it may be a mirror image physically, but not temperment wise or personality wise. I wonder if this becomes a commpn occurence, that people will only want to do it because they will believe that they don't have to train their dog?


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## leah* (Mar 15, 2012)

Thank you for the great responses, everyone! You were all very helpful. We will not breed King and will just enjoy him for the rest of his years. We would never do anything to hurt or change King in anyway. 

And I just want to be clear...I completely understand that a puppy from King would not be his clone or even like him at all necessarily, my family just thought it would be nice to have a puppy who was related to him. Cloning animals makes no sense at all to me.

Thanks again


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chance&Reno said:


> I think you spent time typing all that out when she already said she wasn't going to breed King. Sorry..lol
> 
> I do agree that cloning a dog is outright creepy. Why would you want to do that??? I doubt that they can clone experiences in the dog's life so it may be a mirror image physically, but not temperment wise or personality wise. I wonder if this becomes a commpn occurence, that people will only want to do it because they will believe that they don't have to train their dog?



Nah, it just took me forever to type it. Had to stop, check my e-bay, bid on a few things, pay for a few things, let Cujo in, etc, etc, etc, and by the time I finished it, she had posted again. I read the post where she said that she was going to ask mom to hunt down the papers, so I actually had this open for hours. 

After typing all that, it just seemed wrong to go back and delete it. :crazy:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think cloning a dog would be a sweet experiment. You can raise the second one "correctly" and not make any mistakes you made the first time around. It would kind of be the ultimate test of nature/nurture. Keeping most things equal it would be a true indication of how much more nature effects a dog's temperament than the experiences they go through. It would be the ultimate test of strong nerves.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

selzer said:


> nah, it just took me forever to type it. Had to stop, check my e-bay, bid on a few things, pay for a few things, let cujo in, etc, etc, etc, and by the time i finished it, she had posted again. I read the post where she said that she was going to ask mom to hunt down the papers, so i actually had this open for hours.
> 
> After typing all that, it just seemed wrong to go back and delete it. :crazy:


lmao


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