# Personality change when on leash



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I haven't posted for awhile here, just been reading.... 

But I'm curious on how to deal with this behavior, as his trainer has not given me much for ideas. Its all we have in this area, rural area that it is, so just finding another trainer isn't as easy as it sounds. 

When at training, Knuckles barks at the other dogs like he wants to kill them (so nobody will let their dog close to him), but a strange dog walks into our house and he wants to be best buds with them? On walks he's the same way usually... is it the leash? (he's leashed in class) He met a little dog on Saturday in our home that he could have swallowed in two bites, the dog was growling & barking at him and Knuckles just wanted to play. 

In class he's gone from a laying down/loose leash position to a barking lunge with no reason & no movement/change from me or the dog he's going after. It's very random. As far as dominance... I don't think he has a dominant bone in his body. He's submissive (sometimes severely) to every dog he's been around off leash. 

But last night in class he did his normal barking/lunging but then at one point one of the little dogs (a ****zu) had to run to his owner (we were playing a "My Dog Can Do That" game) and he had to run right by Knuckles... he was in a down/stay and he just watched the dog run by with no reaction at all. As I said, it's random.

The other day we were over at my dads, he was off leash, little dog & owner walked through the alley and Knuckles trotted up to the little dog... hackles came up, but no growling/barking, just trying to smell the dog as the owner was trying to get the dog away from Knuckles. He looked a little upset that the dog wouldn't stand still. It's gotta be the leash, it has to be. He does the same with people - if he's on leash he's barking and growling, but he's ran out to strange people when off leash like he's the friendliest dog in the world. (Which we are working on not running out of the yard to people & dogs!)

And I have not had the opportunity to have him greet a dog while on leash. Nobody in class is comfortable enough with it to let him close to their dog while he's lunging at them and I get the same response while we are walking. I don't blame anyone, I probably wouldn't let my dog be a test either. I think they think I'm lying about how he is off leash at home... and they were surprised to find out last night that he lives with 4 cats and doesn't eat them!

So how does a person get the same gentle, non aggressive behavior that he has off leash when he's leashed? I've been doing the sit/watch me while there is another dog present on walks, but he's so focused on the dog that he makes it almost impossible and by the time I get him almost calmed down the dog is usually brought into the house because the owner doesn't want their dog barking. (we pass a lot of dogs in their yard on walks)


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I find that many dogs are more reactive on leash than off. When on leash, I think they feel a bit more bravado as they know you are right there to back them up. When off leash, they are no longer connected to you, so they are on their best behavior. 

Another possible scenario is that when faced with a fight-or-flight situation, they feel they don't have "flight" as an option when on leash, so they automatically default to "fight".

What do you do when he acts reactive?

What kind of collar do you use for him? I've noticed that dogs on a pinch or headcollar seem less reactive than those on a flat collar or choke.

I don't know what the answer is, just that it's a common issue with dogs. I see way more dog-aggression and general reactivity with leashed dogs than with unleashed dogs. It's kind of ironic that leash laws, meant to prevent prevent problems, sometimes seem to make things worse.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I don't know what the answer is, just that it's a common issue with dogs. I see way more dog-aggression and general reactivity with leashed dogs than with unleashed dogs. It's kind of ironic that leash laws, meant to prevent prevent problems, sometimes seem to make things worse.


This, and fences.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Freestep said:


> What do you do when he acts reactive?
> 
> What kind of collar do you use for him? I've noticed that dogs on a pinch or headcollar seem less reactive than those on a flat collar or choke.


We use a gentle leader, which helps control him. If I have him on a flat or choker I can't hold him back, but the gentle leader I can. 

In class I have him sit back down and try to get his attention back to me, on walks I try to keep walking by usually with the command "just walk away"... I know it's a dumb command, but it's what I started saying. As soon as he stops jumping/lunging/barking, I praise him, no matter how far away from the dog we are. In class I praise the heck out of him when I get no reaction from him when a dog does something... like last night where the Shizu had to run past him. 

There is a golden retriever down the block that barks at everything that moves when he's outside and it really sets Knuckles off... with him I've been putting Knuckles in a sit and trying to get his attention back. The owner knows what I'm doing because we walk by him at least twice a day and I've talked to him about what I'm trying to accomplish (this guy is actually jealous of how I can get my golden to walk off leash without even caring about his barking dog as we walk by - he has little control over his dog).


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Could there be a difference if the dog is male or female? Knuckles is recently fixed (about a month ago) and I just had something interesting happen... we were walking and we passed a female black lab in her kennel (its my parent's neighbor so I know it's a female) and she was barking like crazy and Knuckles just whined a bit, but that was it - he just kept walking. (I of course praised him like a mad woman!) Would he know from a distance the sex of the dog? 
Thinking back to the class, the 2 dogs that he seems to really go off on are males - the little female poodle he never really has. And the dog that came to our house this past weekend was also female.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Any other ideas for me to try? There are over 100 views to this thread... someone gotta have something for me!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

If he is showing tendencies of being more reactive than aggressive, I would be switching to an actual training collar and correcting him for this behavior. If he knows any look or watch commands, I would be using that. When he begins reacting, correct him with the prong and tell him to look, then reward. He has to learn that the behavior is unacceptable. He doesn't need to take control of that situation because *you *have it under control. When you are at class or out on a walk and he begins to bark or lunge or react in any way, he needs to be corrected. 

If it were my dog, I'd have the prong on him and the second we see another stranger or dog, put him in a sit and give him a look command. He needs to stay there and maintain his focus on you until that person and dog either pass or he is no longer showing them any attention. You can keep his focus by just having him perform simple obedience commands as well. Personally, I don't care whatsoever if my dog is acting friendly towards a stranger or dog at all, but he is not allowed to react and is definitely not allowed to bark and lunge at them. If I were you, I wouldn't be worrying about having him greet any other dogs yet at all until he can show a little bit of self control first.

That's just what I'd do.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would start working on a good "leave it", before you even get a reaction or if you think he might have a reaction, just a 'leave it', then praise when he does.

Masi hates golden retrievers (long story bad experience with a couple) Anyhow, if I'm out walking and I happen to see a golden coming along, she is tends to go on high alert, so before she reacts I just tell her to 'leave it', continue on and no reaction gets high praise/reward.

At this point in Masi's life, whenever I say "leave it',,no matter the reason, she just tends to relax, and does just that , leaves it. Like she knows that is the signal for "I'm taking it out of your hands to react just forgettaboutit" ))

Gator and I posted at the same time, but I do agree, when I started this, I would 'correct' for doing it, prong collar works well, tho some will say, the correction may equal pain dog associates pain with whatever (say another dog) ..but worked for me.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Could there be a difference if the dog is male or female?


Yes, that could be a factor. GSDs are more likely to be reactive/aggressive toward same-sex dogs. The neutering should help this, but it does take about 6 weeks for all the testosterone to leave his system. After that, you should see improvement in his behavior if it's a same-sex aggression issue. Dogs know the gender of other dogs, and they can tell this at a distance.

As for what to try for the leash behavior, I'd try a prong collar. At first, I'd walk him where there are no distractions so he gets used to the feeling of it and he can learn to self-correct. It should stop the lunging if it's fitted properly.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

If the gentle leader you mentioned using is a head halter, that could be part of the problem, like the other posts suggested try a collar. Or you could also try a harness. Stand right in front of your dog so you are blocking the view of the other dog - have him sit/stay - even use a treat or ball or toy whatever he likes - hold it in front of him. Use a command - look at me now! - then have him go on the down/stay - the idea is to keep him busy and focused on you rather than the other dog.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> If the gentle leader you mentioned using is a head halter, that could be part of the problem, like the other posts suggested try a collar. Or you could also try a harness. Stand right in front of your dog so you are blocking the view of the other dog - have him sit/stay - even use a treat or ball or toy whatever he likes - hold it in front of him. Use a command - look at me now! - then have him go on the down/stay - the idea is to keep him busy and focused on you rather than the other dog.


The reason our trainer suggested the gentle leader was because of him lunging. He can't lunge like he wants now and doesn't at all on walks if another dog isn't around. He walks beautifully, actually :wub: I'm honestly in love with the gentle leader, it has made walks so much more enjoyable & my 77 year old dad can now hold Knuckles for me if I need him to. 

Here is the collar/halter. It's the only pictures I have with it on him. Both a side & front view. (My stepmom hates dogs, but Knuckles has decided that she must love dogs... and its working)















I normally take it off when we are not walking, but we were just getting ready to leave my parents house (thats them) so I had put it back on him... then he decides he doesn't want to leave grandpa & grandma! 


I'll look into getting a prong, I'm not a big fan of them but I gotta keep trying. It's the only thing that has been suggested that we haven't done.
Has anyone used a prong for a situation like mine and then not had to use it later on down the line? I really want to correct the behavior, not just manage it.


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am by no means an expert in this area but have been trying to deal with dog reactivity for a few months now. I have been working with LAT which seems to be helping. I also discovered that if I have Stella on a long line and we see another dog, rather than try to reel her in and keep her on a short leash, I let her walk loosely up to the other dog. (so far we have been fortunate in that all the other dogs so far have been stable and calm) There is very little reaction and then it is Stella just wanting to play. The LAT is working well when we are in a class and dogs are not allowed to interact. This is still a work in progress. I guess a lot depends on why the dog is reacting....seems in Stella's case it is frustration. But who knows....


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

katdog5911 said:


> I guess a lot depends on why the dog is reacting....seems in Stella's case it is frustration. But who knows....


I sometimes think thats the case with us, too. He knows he can't get to the other dog, so maybe he's barking at ME and not the other dog. Sometimes I think it's more protesting than anything else, but I haven't had the luxury to test it out 
I know a lot of people on here don't see the need for dogs to meet each other and interact and honestly I don't care either way, but it would be nice to know what the outcome would be if they would meet... and to make the barking/lunging stop.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> We use a gentle leader, which helps control him. If I have him on a flat or choker I can't hold him back, but the gentle leader I can.
> 
> In class I have him sit back down and try to get his attention back to me, on walks I try to keep walking by usually with the command "just walk away"... I know it's a dumb command, but it's what I started saying. As soon as he stops jumping/lunging/barking, I praise him, no matter how far away from the dog we are. In class I praise the heck out of him when I get no reaction from him when a dog does something... like last night where the Shizu had to run past him.
> 
> There is a golden retriever down the block that barks at everything that moves when he's outside and it really sets Knuckles off... with him I've been putting Knuckles in a sit and trying to get his attention back. The owner knows what I'm doing because we walk by him at least twice a day and I've talked to him about what I'm trying to accomplish (this guy is actually jealous of how I can get my golden to walk off leash without even caring about his barking dog as we walk by - he has little control over his dog).


Hi Berleen

Actually I think you're doing well, all you really need to do is keep a long distance from other dogs and people, until Knuckles understands that he is only allowed near them when he shows some self control. 

I understand the problems you're having with Knuckles, as our last dog Sammy was exactly the same. Random and unpredictable. 

We were asked to leave 3 different training schools because he was so unpredictable, disruptive, and vocal. The trainers and a behaviourist had no ideas how to help . Just like your dog - he would be calmly lying down - then wham - arm practically out of my socket - no warning whatsoever. He was known as the 'nutty shepherd' - Bless him. 

Any dog or person could come into the house - no problems whatsover - but outside he was h*ll on legs. 

He was funny though - he loved cats, indoors or out, he'd be all waggly tailed -strange dog. :wub:

We spent years trying to figure him out - and trying just about every method we found out about - nothing helped. 

Eventually we did got there though, and it was so simple. Basically like everything else - it's easy when you know how - I wish we'd figured out how years sooner than we did. Sammy and us would have had a much better life. 

Admitted our dog was older than yours - we got him as a wild child when he was a year old. We found out that corrections and even redirection were a complete waste of time with him. I recall one incident in particular. We were on holiday with both of our dogs, the children and grandchildren. We found a large desserted beach and the dogs and kids were totally engrossed in playing together and running in the sea - or so we thought - until Sammy suddenly took off at full speed - he had spotted a man far off in the distance. Nothing diverted his attention from other people and dogs - he was obsessed - mainly with dogs - basically he saw a person and assumed they'd have a dog. 

I would strongly advise against the prong collar - they do work with some dogs - but corrections didn't work with mine, infact I honestly believe they made him worse. Mild corrections were ignored and severe ones just made him worse, he started reacting more aggressively. Eventually we found the head collar and a harness a great combination, used with a double ended leash - no danger of damaging his neck when he lunged and pulled.

As the others have said you need to concentrate first of all on teaching Knuckles self control and a solid 'leave it'. I don't know how good his general obedience is, but these videos are really good for teaching both. Also teach him to play tug and release on command. I would also get a flirt pole, to instill the leave it command. Can he walk on a really loose leash, because that really helps too. 





 




 
The biggest problem with leash reactive dogs is the owner. It's so easy to unconsciously tighten the leash in preparation for their reaction - that's why it's so much better to keep as much distance as possible between your dog and other dogs - you learn to relax because he's too far away to get into any real problems. I'd start about 400 yards away from other dogs, if possible.

Just observe at first to try and find his safe distance or threshold. Just walk him on a loose leash and let him sniff and wonder around. Do some obedience such as sits, downs, waits. stays etc. If dogs come into view and he doesn't react you know you can afford to go a bit closer. But don't push too close too soon - it will just make it harder. 

There's no harm in trying your very best to keep his attention onto you. So on walks carry a bag of really smelly treats, reserved especially for walks, if Knuckles responds to them - mine didn't unfortunately. Also carry a tug toy - a furry squirrel with a squeak is really good for getting attention and easy to carry - again reserved for walks only. 

As soon as you see a dog, make sure you don't tighten the leash, offer him a treat, or squeak the tugger and get him to tug - or start running - whatever it takes to get his attention onto you and away from the dog. 

If you can't get his attention and he does react - don't worry - just leave him to it - just stand still and hold his leash - wait until he calms down - move your arm forward to slacken the leash - if he goes to pull again - just stand still and let him - only praise him when you slacken the leash and he makes no attempt to pull. Then start walking towards the other dog praising him when he's calm and walking nicely on the loose leash - go forward about ten to twenty feet, depending how far you are away from the other dog, praising gently as long as he's calm and then veer to the side so that you're parallel to the other dog and walk Knuckles like that for a while. As you're walking keep stopping and get him to sit before moving on again. If at any time he starts to react again - leave him to it - wait for total calm, praise him and continue walking - but this time don't go closer to the dog veer him away back to his safe zone.

Just keep repeating the above, slowly closing the distance until over a period of weeks, possibly even months, he'll be able to walk next to another dogs calmly. Then you can move on to correctly approaching other dogs and using the leave command. 

You're better off avoiding training school until he's working better outdoors - unless you can keep your distance from the other dogs. Or you could use it as a training exercise - Wait outside at a safe distance from the other dogs and either put Knuckles in a sit and treat him for remaining calm, or walk him past the other dogs at a safe distance. 

Try this interesting test with Knuckles. I did this and was surprised at the result. With the lab that lives down the block, just walk Knuckles past him - and no doubt both dogs will go crackers - but immediately after passing do a u-turn and go back and see how they react. I found they both just shut up and looked at each other. We let them for a few seconds and carried on walking past. In the end we could walk past calmly, and they would even sniff each other if we let them. 

Do you have any type of herding or trieball training reasonably near to you. We realise now that Sammy needed the correct outlet for his natural instincts. 

No doubt I've forgotten to mention things, but I hope that's of some help 

Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Wow.. thanks Sue!! I love the "let him do it until he calms" idea, that I haven't tried before! I'll try that one and see what happens  I'd rather try that than the prong collar being I just don't like them, but I will if I have to. I'm going to try it today already  

He only has 2 weeks left of this 8 week training course. We haven't been kicked out yet  The trainer invited us to see how he would do in the CGC class she wants to start in September and said if he doesn't do good the first day that we wouldn't have to pay, we could just stop. She's willing to try with him! In the hour, he does his thing 4 or 5 times? Of course, when we get there he has to tell everyone he's there with his barking. 

Interestingly enough, the last class we played this "My dog can do that" game and one of the things Knuckles had to do was be surrounded by all the people (not the dogs) and everyone had to call him, but he was supposed only come to either me or my daughter. He failed miserably, he went to one of the other women LOL But he did even freak out being surrounded, he was loving the attention!


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm just adding this it my earlier post - I knew I'd forget something. 

We found that sitting on park bench or hanging around outside a shop very useful for teaching calm behaviour around people. Use a muzzle if you're in the least bit concerned Knuckles may bite. The 'leave it' command comes in very useful. Have plenty of treats with you and reward for calm behaviour. 

If you meet other dogs in the street, either cross the road or turn around and walk the other way. Always give approaching dogs a wide berth if possible. Dogs don't naturally approach each other head on, they give each other a wide berth and approach from the side or rear. 

Pay special care when going around corners. Tell Knuckles to wait, hold his leash short and look around the corner yourself first. Be prepared to turn and go the other way if necessary to avoid problems, or just hang back a while. 

If you're forced into a situation you can't avoid push into Knuckles to turn him around, so that he has his back to the other dog (that's a calming signal and lets the other dog know that Knuckles isn't a threat) and allow the other dog to pass, keep Knuckles leash short but loose, and make sure you are between Knuckles and the other dog. Tell him to 'leave it' and give him a treat or If he reacts just hold onto him and praise and treat him when he calms down. 
___________
Sue


----------



## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I have a leash reactive dog (Duke). He can be reactive off leash too, but it's 95% all on the leash. Most of what he does on leash... wouldn't be done if he was free roam.

I use a sprenger prong. He's not allowed to stare at another dog, no barking, not lunging. The second he goes into his stare down (Which is ALWAYS followed up by a lunge), he gets corrected with the prong and told "NO! Platz!" (or whatever command he was in before the lunge..). Then when he's going nicely and not looking at them... "Good Boy!!" and be happy. This way he knows if he doesn't do that, it's a much happier place. Every time he reacts... we correct. With Duke, he stares the dogs down, starts puffing himself up... hackles and all... the lunges. Now that I know his "timeline" and can read them well, I can cut it off from the beginning. The second I see him lock eyes on a dog... correction! His attention should be on me anyways.

We used to have a lot of problems in training with this... he was getting set off constantly. Now, I can sit around other dogs with him, I can walk him by other dogs, other dogs can walk by him.... No issues. Occasionally, he has a moment... but with a quick correction, it's over. Much much much better!!! Other dogs have actually come up to him and sniffed him (ones he previously lunged at)..... he just sits there... He knows if he's good, I'll be happy.

We've been doing this method with him for almost 7 weeks now. He's a million times better already.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> *If he is showing tendencies of being more reactive than aggressive,* I would be switching to an actual training collar and correcting him for this behavior. If he knows any look or watch commands, I would be using that. When he begins reacting, correct him with the prong and tell him to look, then reward. He has to learn that the behavior is unacceptable. He doesn't need to take control of that situation because *you *have it under control. When you are at class or out on a walk and he begins to bark or lunge or react in any way, he needs to be corrected.
> 
> If it were my dog, I'd have the prong on him and the second we see another stranger or dog, put him in a sit and give him a look command. He needs to stay there and maintain his focus on you until that person and dog either pass or he is no longer showing them any attention. You can keep his focus by just having him perform simple obedience commands as well. Personally, I don't care whatsoever if my dog is acting friendly towards a stranger or dog at all, but he is not allowed to react and is definitely not allowed to bark and lunge at them. If I were you, I wouldn't be worrying about having him greet any other dogs yet at all until he can show a little bit of self control first.
> 
> That's just what I'd do.


How would one distinguish between reactivity and aggression? Do the training methods differ?


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I have 2 dogs...STella 11 month GSD and Ruben 9 yr newfie/lab mix. Both are reactive on the leash. Ruben is aggressive. Stella is frustrated. Both bark and lunge and hackles go up. Difference.....if other dog continues to approach Ruben will get very stiff....then go to bite. Stella will sniff, lick face and play bow to play.... But initial reaction on leash looks very similar in both. Ruben cannot be off leash around other dogs. Stella can. I have been letting her walk the length of her 30 ft long leash even when I see another dog. She walks ahead but not the full length of the leash, stops, walks some more, etc until she is with other dog. Before letting her do that, I would shorten up her leash and not allow contact. That did not work for her at all. So now I have to teach her that there are times when she CANNOT say hello to other dogs. And that it is not appropriate to act crazy.....


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

"The reason our trainer suggested the gentle leader was because of him lunging. He can't lunge like he wants now and doesn't at all on walks if another dog isn't around. He walks beautifully, actually :wub: I'm honestly in love with the gentle leader, it has made walks so much more enjoyable & my 77 year old dad can now hold Knuckles for me if I need him to. " 
That is very understandable, but the head halter prevents a dog from using his head to give signals to other dogs. For a leash reactive dog, the head halter can be very frustrating and so the frustration builds up and he suddenly overreacts when he sees another dog. The Norwegian trainer Turid Rugaas explains this in her book "On Talking Terms with .Dogs: Calming Signals" and also explains how to teach loose leash walking in "My Dog Pulls: What Do I do?".


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> How would one distinguish between reactivity and aggression? Do the training methods differ?


Just watching the body language of the dog allows me to determine if that dog is actually aggressive or not. Training methods would differ in the sense that aggression can sometimes be escalated by the use of the prong collar. I am all for them (usually) but will admit that they don't work for everyone, and it seems to not work as well for dog aggressive dogs.

I have a reactive Pit bull at home. If anyone knows what sounds a Pit will make when they react, its pretty drastically different from a Shepherd. I refused to allow her to carry on like that and make a scene flailing at the end of a head collar. A 60lb reactive Pit bull in a head collar is comparable to a wild animal on the end of that leash. She needed to be corrected for her behavior. Should I have yanked her neck in the completely opposite direction with the head collar and twisted her muscles around until she responded? You cannot and should not give quick leash corrections when using a gentle leader. You can cause damage to the neck and spine. If people really think that doing that would be less dangerous than using a prong, then I really just don't know what to say.

OP, is there a specific reason you don't like the prong collar? Do you think you are hurting your dog? I strongly suggest you get the opinion of professional trainer that is familiar with our breed. Standing at the end of your leash and waiting for your dog to react so that you can continue to ignore him will get you nowhere. And as you said, no one will want to approach you or your dog.

A prong collar is a training collar. If you think that your head collar taught Knuckles anything, you are wrong. How does he walk when the collar is not on? How does he react to other dogs? No collars will *fix* your problem with Knuckles' reactivity. You need to teach him how to control himself. Does he know a command for heel? That would be the first step. Once the dog learns the command and learns how to control himself around other dogs, you wouldn't need any collar. But that it completely and totally dependent on you teaching him how to behave - not what collar you decide to use.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> OP, is there a specific reason you don't like the prong collar? Do you think you are hurting your dog?


I've read too many places that using it inncorrectly does more harm than good and yes, I don't like the hurting aspect of it. 



> I strongly suggest you get the opinion of professional trainer that is familiar with our breed.


I'm lucky there was any type of training class in my area, much less a trainer familiar with any sort of breed! Bad thing about living where I'm at. The only other option for me is PetSmart/Petco. 



> If you think that your head collar taught Knuckles anything, you are wrong. How does he walk when the collar is not on?


I don't think I'm wrong. His walking on leash has improved so much... even without it on. He does still pull a bit with just his flat collar, but not as much as he used to. Everyday he's getting better. 



> How does he react to other dogs? No collars will *fix* your problem with Knuckles' reactivity. You need to teach him how to control himself. Does he know a command for heel? That would be the first step. Once the dog learns the command and learns how to control himself around other dogs, you wouldn't need any collar. But that it completely and totally dependent on you teaching him how to behave - not what collar you decide to use.


I completely understand that, which is why I asked. I would rather focus on commands/body language/corrections than trying a different collar right now. He's almost automatic right now with when I stop, he sits, no matter where or what were are doing... except when there is another dog around. 
I wish he would pick up on our Golden's signals more, but when she is with he is so worried about where she is and what she is doing that walking is a nightmare. The only way he doesn't pay attention to her is when there is another dog, but if he would watch her & do his monkey see monkey do routine, we'd have this in the bag. The Golden walks off leash all the time (don't want a debate about that) and even if a dog is 5 feet away from her barking (a lot of people have invisible fencing around here), she just keeps walking like the dog isn't there.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I've read too many places that using it inncorrectly does more harm than good and yes, I don't like the hurting aspect of it.


Why are people so paranoid about "hurting" their dogs? Dogs don't care if they hurt *you*.  Use a prong collar correctly, and any "pain" will be fleeting and minimal. If the dog is getting one good correction and learning to control the reactive behavior, is that somehow worse than constant, ineffective nagging that allows the behavior to continue and only teaches the dog that he can ignore you?

Fitted properly, a dog will learn to correct and control himself on a prong collar. This usually means far fewer corrections in the long run, and far less pain for both of you, since you will be able to relax and enjoy your walks. I honestly don't understand why people are so averse to this. To me, it seems like common sense. 

Life is full of little pains and corrections...for humans and for dogs... they can be teachable moments. For example, you can nag a 2-year old child not to touch the stove all day long and he's not going to understand. He's only going to understand that YOU don't want him to touch the stove and he doesn't understand why. He may even become more curious and more determined to touch it *because* you told him not to. The only way he's going to have an "aha" moment is if he touches the stove and discovers it is painfully hot; then and only then will he gain a true understanding of why not to do it. Furthermore, he will remember that you told him not to, and realize that you are to be trusted and listened to.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

> The reason our trainer suggested the gentle leader was because of him lunging. He can't lunge like he wants now and doesn't at all on walks if another dog isn't around. He walks beautifully, actually :wub: I'm honestly in love with the gentle leader, it has made walks so much more enjoyable & my 77 year old dad can now hold Knuckles for me if I need him to. "


 


Mary Beth said:


> "That is very understandable, but the head halter prevents a dog from using his head to give signals to other dogs. For a leash reactive dog, the head halter can be very frustrating and so the frustration builds up and he suddenly overreacts when he sees another dog. The Norwegian trainer Turid Rugaas explains this in her book "On Talking Terms with .Dogs: Calming Signals" and also explains how to teach loose leash walking in "My Dog Pulls: What Do I do?".


I read that as well, and I agree if the dog is being restrained and his head pulled around, then another dog wouldn't be able to tell his body language. But if they walk on a loose leash, the body language is not affected. Others dogs can still see their eyes, ears and mouth, and they can still turn their heads and sniff etc. 

The OP said her dog does walk on a loose leash.

A head collar on a reactive, potentially aggressive dog is brilliant, especially very close up to other dogs - I personally would couple it with a harness to remove any risk of neck injury though. But Imo a neck injury is possible with any collar if a dog lunges or pulls quickly to the end of a leash.
__________
Sue


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Another possible scenario is that when faced with a fight-or-flight situation, they feel they don't have "flight" as an option when on leash, so they automatically default to "fight".


IME with Jax, this is the cause. If she is off leash, then she can easily keep her distance and is less reactive unless she just decides to charge from an acre away to let the dog walking by have a piece of her mind and scare little children. 

When on leash, she is restricted in her movements and is more reactive. However, she is also more reactive in strange places and that is where she is most likely to be on leash.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> IME with Jax, this is the cause. If she is off leash, then she can easily keep her distance and is less reactive unless she just decides to charge from an acre away to let the dog walking by have a piece of her mind and scare little children.
> 
> When on leash, she is restricted in her movements and is more reactive. However, she is also more reactive in strange places and that is where she is most likely to be on leash.


This is daisy. Lucky on leash has no real reactivity. Off leash his prey drive w/ small animals happens and his dog aggressiveness.I had a trainer tell me that certain dogs do react to being on the leash b/c of there not being in their view a way to have flight as an option.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> OP, is there a specific reason you don't like the prong collar? Do you think you are hurting your dog? I strongly suggest you get the opinion of professional trainer that is familiar with our breed. *Standing at the end of your leash and waiting for your dog to react so that you can continue to ignore him will get you nowhere.* And as you said, no one will want to approach you or your dog.


You don't wait for him to react - he's already reacting - you wait for him to calm down, and then praise him. The dog learns that's his choice - if he wants to go near another dog he must be calm, and behave properly. He learns that reacting and performing get him nowhere. You are in control - not him. You decide if he is allowed to closer or not. 

Corrections work with some dogs in some situations - not all dogs in all situations. 

Using corrections on a fear aggressive dog, will just make him more fearful, and more likely to bite. You keep your distance so the dog starts to feel better about other dogs and starts to trust you to take care of things. 

A truly reactive dog - once in the zone, doesn't listen to commands or respond to corrections. And you cannot correct a dog before he reacts when they are always on full alert, have better eyesight than you, and have reacted before you've either seen or had chance to give a correction. Trainers and behaviourists have the same problems with dogs like this. 

The trainers and behaviourist we consulted all thought it was me - until they witnessed my dog first hand. They didn't have a clue how to handle him. Nothing, nothing at all, kept his attention when on walks - no matter what he was doing he was still on alert for other dogs or people. I was very lucky if I managed to spot a dog before he did. On the odd occasion I did see the dog first, a severe correction had no effect - apart from making him behave more aggressively.
_________
Sue


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Most any training tool when used incorrectly can cause harm. That's why you do your research and learn from the help of others with knowledge of the experience. He learned to walk on a loose lead with the head collar on and if thats somehow crossing over into your walking on a regular flat, then thats great. But as I said before, you can't and shouldn't give corrections with a gentle leader. When he sees another dog and starts reacting the way you described, he should be corrected. If you can't give a proper correction on the head collar, then you should move on to a more effective training tool. The head collar may help with his lunging but not with the way he reacts to other dogs. Correcting him is in no way the same thing as harming him. He could easily be hurt just by throwing his body weight into the force of the head collar causing him to sprain a muscle in his neck as it is twisted in the opposite direction. A prong collar applies even pressure around the dog's neck. The ends are blunt and do not "stab" the dog as so many people seem to think. It is a self correcting tool. How often does Knuckles rub his face into something or paw at the head collar to try and get it off? When my dogs see their prong collars, they run around with excitement because they know that it means we are going somewhere. There is no avoidance or fighting the collar or trying to get it off. 

I am in no way against using a head collar. I use one for my Beagle for the sake of curbing her leash pulling. A large breed dog with reactive tendencies needs a stronger method of control.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> You don't wait for him to react - he's already reacting - you wait for him to calm down, and then praise him. The dog learns that's his choice - if he wants to go near another dog he must be calm, and behave properly. He learns that reacting and performing get him nowhere. You are in control - not him. You decide if he is allowed to closer or not.
> 
> Corrections work with some dogs in some situations - not all dogs in all situations.
> 
> ...


I'm glad that worked for you. But in my house, my dogs are not allowed to react that way. My dogs are also not dog or fear aggressive. As I stated above - AGGRESSIVE DOGS MAY NOT RESPOND WELL TO A PRONG COLLAR. This does not sound like aggression to me. OP said her dog is great with other dogs off leash. It just sounds like a young dog who is trying to get away with doing whatever he wants because he has yet to see any repercussions from his behavior. He is either barking out of frustration from being restrained or is insecure on leash, as Jax and Daisy and Lucky's mom stated with the fight or flight responses. 

My dogs know a "look" command. When another dog is walking by, the command is given either from a sit or in motion. If the dog directs his attention back to the other dog, a correction is given and the command is repeated. The dog is then praised for obeying the command, not for "chosing to make the right choice" on his own. I make all choices for my dog so that they never feel the need to make a decision that may result in an out of control reaction. I know quite a few dog aggressive dogs that were trained with a prong collar. While I know not every training method works for every dog, that is not to say that OP can't try it. She already said that she has tried the "waiting until he stops and then praise" method and it clearly isn't working.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

You do have to be careful with a prong collar when a dog is already ramped up. Some dogs will "load" on corrections, getting them ramped up even more. For this type of dog, you have to be very careful and your timing for corrections has to be spot-on; basically you have to apply a correction *before* the dog has a chance to get excited or aggressive. Otherwise it can exacerbate the problem if the dog is one of those that "loads" on corrections.


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

GatorDog and others are correct, training collars are probably the best solution for you and your dog. If it is the "look" of the prong that makes you think it is so hurtful, then check out the herm springier neck-tech. It will give you all of the benefits of the traditional prong but has the look of a flat collar. one added benefit is that you don't get all the dirty looks and snooty comments from clueless people in public that goes along with a traditional prong. Also keep in mind that everything goes down the leash, if you are worried and uncomfortable, your dog will be too and that could compound the issue that you are having.
Question to Gator, do you think its anxiety going down the leash combined with no way to give correction? I am asking since I have no experience with a head collar, but I know my gsds would pull until passing out it it wasn't for the pinch.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Kovacik76 said:


> Question to Gator, do you think its anxiety going down the leash combined with no way to give correction? I am asking since I have no experience with a head collar, but I know my gsds would pull until passing out it it wasn't for the pinch.


Absolutely! Some dogs are much more sensitive than others, and this sounds like it could be the case. I've been following Kittilicious' journey with Knuckles from when he was just a little guy. Sensitive dogs can be very in tune with the handler (as so many are). I also train in Schutzhund with my very sensitive dog. The more confident that I am, the more confident that he is. If Knuckles feels inconfident because OP is nervous about confronting another dog, then Knuckles will react.

OP, I have also seen the use of plastic prong-type training collars made by Premier (I think). They seem to work very well for dogs that are young and just starting out with a training collar. Plus, they looks much less "brutal" than the metal prongs and you wouldn't have to worry about anyone criticizing you for that. But Knuckles is a very big boy and you really need to keep your safety, as well as his and the other dogs that he is reacting to in mind. G** forbid one day he lunges into that gentle leader and you can't hold him back. Say he runs up to the other dog. Even though you know that he isn't dog aggressive and won't attack them, the other dog might not feel the same way and he could get very hurt and you, or someone else, could get hurt in the process.


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

Gator, I have seen the plastic but never thought about putting it on a GSD, but the Neck-Tech is stainless steel and once it is sized I will close the links a little with pliers but have never had it to come apart as I have had with a traditional prong. I have seen good dogs get killed because of prongs coming off, especially since it is so easy to miss a link that has gotten tweaked just enough to slip out.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I have little to no anxiety with walking him... we never come to a point where he has to pass another dog, except in class. All the dogs we pass on walks are in their yards. If I feel anything it's embarrassment that he acts like he does. (Some dogs he whines like a baby/cries like I'm hurting him... others he just barks/half growls/yelps at) I wish he could come in contact with the other dogs in class, but the other owners won't do it. Thats what really sucks is that I can't find anyone that will let Knuckles just come up to their dog. The few dogs he has been able to meet, he's been fine with. 

Actually, now that I think about this a bit, he does the same barking/lunging at Bella, the Great Dane across the street and he's doing it all the way across the street until we get to her and then he's in heaven playing with her. We don't go over often, but next time I'm going to make sure that he's sitting and not "reacting" before I let him go to her. I did this, didn't I? I screwed this all up. 

So yeah, I'm thinking aggressiveness isn't even a thought here... 



> I have seen good dogs get killed because of prongs coming off, especially since it is so easy to miss a link that has gotten tweaked just enough to slip out.


Wait.. what? Dogs killed? And if I wasn't scared of using a prong collar before?


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I believe Kovacik means gotten killed as in slipped out of the collar if a link isn't hooked correctly and had some sort of fatal accident. 

Also, I just saw a link for a Gentle Leader recall due to a defective mechanism in the collar causing it to release unexpectedly....Just an FYI.

Announcement about Gentle Leaders - Premier Pet


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I believe Kovacik means gotten killed as in slipped out of the collar if a link isn't hooked correctly and had some sort of fatal accident.


Ok, as long as they weren't killed from the collar itself. That could have been read either way. 



> Also, I just saw a link for a Gentle Leader recall due to a defective mechanism in the collar causing it to release unexpectedly....Just an FYI.
> 
> Announcement about Gentle Leaders - Premier Pet


Thanks! Ours was purchased during that time, but we just inspected it according to the images and ours is fine. :happyboogie:


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

gator is correct, the officer had it hooked correctly but one of the links on his off brand prong was pinched in just a little which allowed the collar to come off under high agitation between lunges when the collar became slack, that and the whole public perception of prongs is why I personally love the neck-tech by HS. I was going to post a pic but can't seem to upload one off of my mac. Thanks Gator for clarifying that for me and I'm sure you know of the cheaper collars that I am speaking of how the links lose their......um tension?
Sorry for the scare, but it was something I saw happen with a PSD, its like any other product you get what you pay for and the extra couple of dollars on a better quality product that the dog wore everyday would have saved it. But I would like to add and I think Gator will agree, stay away from quick release models.


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

Also I had no intention of you thinking the collar did it, sorry for that. Training collars are not cruel unless the handler is. Just as with any tool or training device. Just like e-collars, they are a wonderful thing.... unless the someone decides to not use it properly.


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

Kittilicious I am wondering if your trainer doesn't like pinch collars.
Because in my area unless you are training police dogs options a very very limited here. One of my wires friends was having problems with her two shepherds, about 2.5 years old and litter mates. And the only collars this "trainer" would allow, which I can't stand, was a choke chain. Her dogs would pull until passing out not to mention drag her across the training room. Long story short after wasting $400 on OB classes that she stopped going to after three sessions, she was ready to give away two beautiful imports. She was scared to death of prongs after the drilling of how evil they were by that trainer she tried, but her husband helped me talk her into trying the collars and I would come out and show her what to do. So a cook out was setup and I put all my collars, leashes and harnesses in a bag and went to meet their boys. They had started trying to use a normal pinch and a quick release that shed had bought from tractor supply, but the boys still wouldn't mind. When I met them the first thing was to remove links to make them fit properly and show them how the quick release could be released by catching the leash snap and then found the link in the other collar had already lost its spring from being taken on and off every day and how it could possibly come loose on its own without being squeezed together. So I showed her a 10 year old Sprenger pinch that has trained several K9's and has been put on and off probably 2,000 times and still hasn't lost its tension. Long story short, they threw their collars away and I let them use mine for a few weeks until their new ones came in. But they have been trying their best to do 15 minutes a day with them at least every other day and after three weeks their 55lb daughter can walk both 80#+ shepherds at the same time with no lunges or pulling even with other dogs charging at fences or cats running across the road. I truly feel that if you listen to Gator or several other wonderful posters on here you will be very pleased with the results. I am really sorry for giving you are scare earlier. For the record as with a lot of the posters here, if there is anything that I can do to help and it's too much to type just PM me and I will be happy to try and explain it over the phone.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't know if she likes or dislikes them, but she said just a flat collar in class although then she brought me the gentle leader. Actually the first class she let me hook him into his choker (which honestly is just for looks, it's usually never hooked to a leash... I found a choker w/a black rope looking thing within the links and I just thought it looked sweet on him) and then the next week he had the gentle leader on and has since. 

I'm sort of afraid to buy one because I don't know how to fit it... and I really don't trust the employees at Petco or Petsmart. Nobody seems to know anything at the ones that are nearby (20+ miles away). The downfall of living in rural Minnesota... there are professional nothings around here and thats about it.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I'm sort of afraid to buy one because I don't know how to fit it... and I really don't trust the employees at Petco or Petsmart. Nobody seems to know anything at the ones that are nearby (20+ miles away). The downfall of living in rural Minnesota... there are professional nothings around here and thats about it.


You are right on about not trusting Petsmart. They don't seem to know a thing about them. If you were to buy one, I'd suggest buying a Herm Sprenger brand collar. Most of the stores in my area only sell the scissor clip quick release collars which I don't like (can come unclipped easily), so you might have to order one online anyways. The larger the link size, the more mild the correction is. So a 4.0 mm collar would probably be a good start. Leerburg explains the proper way to fit the collars and does a great job with explaining their use as well. A back up collar is always a good idea. Leerburg suggests a nylon type dominant dog collar just in case the collar pops loose. I've personally never had it happen with the regular prong without the scissor clips. 

Here's the link if you're interested! 
Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar

Again, it's a great training tool. You use it to teach the dog how to properly control his reactions and eventually you may not need the collar at all. When out for a walk in my neighborhood, I only use my fur saver collar. I use the prong at training and when I know I will be in a high traffic area such as a pet store or any events. It isn't always a collar with a "life sentance"  But it can keep you, your dog, and everyone around you a little more safe.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok so whats the difference between the Leerburg & the Herm Sprenger besides the price? They look very similar?? 

And I have no idea what size to buy? Chrome? Stainless Steel?


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Leerburg sells the HermSprenger collars. HermSprenger is the brand to get. You can get either chrome, stainless steel, or curogan. I personally like the looks of the curogan on my dog but its all just personal preference. Some dogs can react to certain metals and curogan supposedly does not cause those reactions. (I just think it's pretty too). But I also have a stainelss steel collar as well that works great. You'd want to get a 3.2 (sometimes listed as a 3.3) or 4.0 mm collar. I think the 3.3mm ones are just easier to take off and put on. On Leerburg they are listed as large and xlarge, but if you scroll down it will show you what the actual measurements are. I did not need to buy any extra links for Aiden and he is 90 lbs, so I wouldn't worry about that just yet.

Leerburg can be a bit expensive too so if you just search HermSprenger prong collar on Google you may be able to find a site that sells them a bit cheaper. That was the only site that I could find the 3.3mm curogan collar though.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I think this site seems to be pretty much the cheapest. I can't even find a used one on Ebay cheaper. I'll go with the chrome one for now (the cheaper one) just to see how we do with it and if it's a hit, then I'll dish out the money for the stainless steel. 

Yes, I'm probably going to buy it. Are you going to come help me put it on the Knucklehead when it arrives?


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Order has been placed.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Falkosmom said:


> How would one distinguish between reactivity and aggression? Do the training methods differ?


There are a lot of replies on this thread and I skimmed them but didn't have time to read each one in detail, so please excuse me if I'm simply repeating something that someone else already said. 

Quite simply, an aggressive dog, given the opportunity, will aggress. They tend to be confident. These are the "fight" dogs that Freestep mentioned. 

A reactive dog may LOOK aggressive, but often it's simply excitement or bluster - a lot of sound and fury with nothing behind it, designed to scare the other dog away. It looks and sounds fearsome, but that same dog if not on leash, would probably run away rather than engage - a "flight" dog.

If you don't know your dog very well and/or aren't that skilled in reading dog body language you may not be able to tell the difference, which makes it hard to know what to do about it. That's where a trainer with knowledge and experience, who can observe your dog's behavior objectively, can be very helpful. 

Some dogs aren't afraid of other dogs, but get frustrated when on leash because normal greeting behaviors are inhibited. That would be Keefer. Off leash he's a social butterfly - he likes to sniff everybody and lick muzzles. But he's excitable in general, with high prey drive and low impulse control, and is easily distracted by sudden environmental changes (SECs), as well as having a low tolerance for frustration. He likes other dogs, and being confined by a leash, where the choice to greet them or not is taken away from him, often causes him to bark at them in frustration. He's much better off leash, and he tends to be fine if he gets the opportunity to meet the other dog vs just seeing it at a distance. He's also fine surrounded by other dogs when he's on leash vs just one dog over there somewhere. 

Keefer will be 7 years old at the end of August and it took me a long time to work out the source of his leash reactivity. Cassidy was extremely leash reactive, (WAY worse than him), but she was also fine with most other dogs off leash. For those that she wasn't, we could immediately break her focus off them by saying "Cassidy, ball", and then throwing it for her. She was our first experience with reactivity. Cassidy had weak nerves and was not a confident dog, so it was easy to figure her out. 

Keefer was such a completely different dog than she was, and yet we were having a similar problem with him, which confused us at first. It actually took awhile to figure out that with him there was no fear, it was the excitement/frustration/SEC combo, probably further compounded by his prey drive and impulse control issues, that was the source of his reactivity, which made it much easier to deal with. If he's being a butthead I can simply give him a correction with a prong collar - basically telling him to knock it off and behave. With a fearful dog I'd always be concerned about creating a negative association with the presence of other dogs, so I'd be hesitant to use aversives. With Keefer there's been zero fallout - he doesn't take it personally or hold it against me or the other dog if I correct him.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Berleen

From your earlier posts I understood your dog to be much worse than he is - sorry if I misunderstood. 

If the only problems you have are dogs behind gates and at Training School, I agree with the others, all that's needed is a firm correction. But I'm surprised your trainer hadn't advised you of that. Don't you weave in and out of other dogs in class and teach him 'leave it'?

You don't necessarily need a correction collar though - a firm 'leave it' as you walk your dog past on the gentle leader should be sufficient, as long as you are consistant, and he understands what 'leave it' means. Try walking past quickly - he has less chance to react if you're walking fast - or squeak a ball to get his attention. I'd keep his leash short but loose, and praise and treat if he behaves. 
_________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi Berleen
> 
> From your earlier posts I understood your dog to be much worse than he is - sorry if I misunderstood.
> 
> If the only problems you have are dogs behind gates and at Training School, I agree with the others, all that's needed is a firm correction. But I'm surprised your trainer hadn't advised you of that. Don't you weave in and out of other dogs in class and teach him 'leave it'?


Its not just in class, it's on walks, too. 

He's not a horrible dog, but still a handfull in certain situations. He's not aggressive, he just tries to be a tough big dog, but we all know better  It's easy to think the worst when I explain him... even the trainer was expecting this out of control GSD after I talked to her on the phone. 
No, in class we don't weave between the dogs - honestly the class is kind of stupid, IMO. Knuckles hasn't gotten a thing out of I don't think. He mostly just sits in the corner away from the other dogs... the class is in a vets office. And when I say that I mean it's in the lobby/waiting area of a vets office. It's probably worse than a Petsmart setup, but it's all I have around here! I sometimes think that his reactivity at class is because he feels closed in with nowhere to run. We've gone outside once as a group and he did fairly well ....that day we were working on walking and he did great with walking by other dogs, but it was hot & he was tired  I think he was showing off and the trainer & other owners were impressed at how well he walked on leash & heeled. 
He's the most trained dog in this class.... when the other owners give their dogs a command, Knuckles will do it. It's funny but it makes me proud, he IS a show off. But thats been ME training him, not this class. The other week was "sit stay" day  - we had to have our dog sit & stay for at least a minute. My daughter & I looked at each other and laughed - we put Knucklehead in a sit, told him to stay and before a minute was up he laid down and took a nap. The day that we were teaching hand signals for sit & lay down... after 5 minutes Knuckles had it down (never taught before), but we had to keep doing it for the next 1/2 hour. He got bored and stopped responding to the commands - he'd look at me like "I got this, can you teach me something new?". 
If I can get him past this hump of barking at other dogs we will have a really good dog


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

And Sue, I am going to try the "let him calm down" idea... it doesn't hurt. Maybe the prong collar will be a waste of money.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm sure he'll be fine, whatever you decide to do.

As a matter of interest did you try walking past the gate where the Lab is, and immediately going back - I'd love to know how he reacted. Was our dog just odd - or did yours behave the same? 

Something else. Until you've got him to the stage where you can walk him past dogs calmly - I'd leave your Labrador at home if possible. Sammy our dog behaved much better if our female Dalmation wasn't with us. 

It may be a good idea to walk behind other dogs ( provided the other dog isn't worried by it) or walk in parallel at a distance and close the distance steadily. Perhaps some of the others out of the training class will help as long as you don't actually want your dog to meet and greet - just get close. :laugh: You never now - if he stops barking - they may even let him meet and greet. 

Do you have a park nearby - they're good places to practice, as the other dogs are normally on leash. 

Good Luck 
________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

We walk by the Golden that Knuckles really goes crazy over (Sam is barking like mad, too) at least twice a day. Some days are better than others, but the reaction is usually the same. 
We are down one dog at training now because one graduated last week. So now we only have Knuckles, a Shiztu and a German Shorthair in class (big class, huh?). I'll see if we can take some time at tomorrows class to walk by them. I'm not sure what she has planned because it's the Shiztu's last week. 
We have a park, but few dogs are walked there. We have a walking/bicycle trail that is used more often. Never fails though - we walk down it and it's deserted. Now that we are more into summer there will be a lot more people out and it's going to be major training mode. My oldest daughter is really into training Knuckles and she'll be out of school for the summer in 2 weeks, so that will help too. Problem is, when we do see people they usually make it a point to turn a corner or go down a different street, even if Knuckles isn't reacting. It's very frustrating. Makes it difficult to get him used to things when the things run away from him! Even barking dogs in yards, 95% of the time the owners will bring their dogs into the house before I get a chance to take advantage of the situation. 

We had a bad hail storm here May 1st and everyone in town has to have their roofs/siding redone. I was surprised at how well Knuckles is doing with all of the commotion in the neighborhood. There are 3 houses right now that are getting work done already and he's been super walking past


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> Problem is, when we do see people they usually make it a point to turn a corner or go down a different street, even if Knuckles isn't reacting. It's very frustrating. Makes it difficult to get him used to things when the things run away from him! Even barking dogs in yards, 95% of the time the owners will bring their dogs into the house before I get a chance to take advantage of the situation.


That's so true - useful for getting him used to ignoring them though- he's got no choice when they avoid him. 

You'll soon be swamped with dogs as the warm weather arrives. I swear there must be so many dogs who rarely step outside for walks in the winter.
_____________
Sue


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I was so happy to read Jake's mum Sue's reply and I can see from your replies you are to. Her advice is great. Knuckles is only 10 months - think teenager times! Of course, he is excited to see other dogs. My Sting went through the same loud stage. To shush him, you can put your hand on top of his muzzle - at least you'll get his attention - then turn him - and go in another direction. As Sue suggested when he is quiet, turn back try again. It takes time and patience - but he'll learn that if he starts to bark, you are going to turn and start going in another direction. So he is bigger and stronger - I know - he might even get away (been there too) - just go after him and grab that leash. Bluntly tell him what you think of him - grab that leash and march away - then after he is walking contritely - have him sit - then praise and reward for finally being good. Ball playing and tug will help him to burn off some of that young energy and off leash walks (if you have a safe area) so he can chase that squirrel. For helping him to focus - you may want to try a walking harness - I have started Sting on the Walk in Sync . The purchase includes accesss to training videos and you can email the trainer. It is amazing.


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

Kittilicious, I am so glad you had several great people reply and it gives you so many different things to try and correct the issue with. I hope you got the pic on FB that I sent of hat other style sprenger collar. I am sorry i had to send it there but after an hour of failing to get it to go on here I was about to pull out my hair. When my boys go to their swimming hole, they are both at heel on 24" traffic leads until we hit the abandoned county road since they are faced with multiple cats and a pack of loose running untrained mutts that even tried to attack us once. (story for another post one day)
But my boys are very protective of me and have VERY high prey drive. They didn't lunge because they felt or heard the chain in the collar start to slip and immediately went to a sit. And please don't think they are scared of the collar from being yanked on, because they have only had very few and very light corrections, but if in a flat collar or harness they would and still will pull like draft horses. My 50lb, 6yo daughter can walk them both under any distraction we have came across and not get pulled. All we use are two 24" traffic leads, Sprenger neck-Tech pinch collars, and a Dogtra Edge e-collar. After we get past the house with the dogs they are off leash to chase the deer, squirrels, and whatever. When they get too far away they will get a "leave it" command and a recall with the Dogtra. And the recall isn't verbal it is the vibrate buzz on the collar. Have to give credit to forum member "Uncle Lou" on here for that one. Why yell a command at 100yds to recall when I can vibrate page them and have them charge back to me at full speed? Sorry for rambling but i have one last question Kitti, when you say he goes crazy at the neighbors dog, what kind of bark is he using? Is it his puppy wanting to play bark or his protective big boy bark? Because my 16month Demon won't lunge with the pinch, but he will still get wound up and use his "I wanna play" bark when in the company of certain other dogs.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> And Sue, I am going to try the "let him calm down" idea... it doesn't hurt. Maybe the prong collar will be a waste of money.


It won't be a waste of money--either it works, or it doesn't; either way, you've learned something.

My dogs always get excited when they see the prong collar come out, because it means we're going to do something FUN--training, or going for a walk, or whatever. So even the dogs see the prong collar as a good thing!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Freestep said:


> My dogs always get excited when they see the prong collar come out, because it means we're going to do something FUN--training, or going for a walk, or whatever. So even the dogs see the prong collar as a good thing!


Same here! :thumbup:


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

Same here, mine can barely contain the excitement to sit and wait on the pinch an e-collars to go on. I keep my 2' leashes attached to their pinch collars and they have went as far as going in the other room, grabbing their leashes and dropping them on me. Guess I wasn't getting the hint.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Kovacik76 said:


> when you say he goes crazy at the neighbors dog, what kind of bark is he using? Is it his puppy wanting to play bark or his protective big boy bark? Because my 16month Demon won't lunge with the pinch, but he will still get wound up and use his "I wanna play" bark when in the company of certain other dogs.


Its hard to tell honestly. Sometimes I can tell if it's a play/whiny bark, but sometimes I'm just not sure... it's more of a deep bark, but not a quick, vicious bark if you get what I mean. When I think of "attack" I think of quick snaps/barks. He never does the play/whiny bark with Sam, the Golden though - I just think they don't like each other (Sam doesn't seem to like anyone!). I'll maybe try to get a video with my phone tomorrow if we pass while he's out. Not sure how thats going to work, but I'll try. 

And thanks for telling me you sent the pic... Facebook hides messages from non-friends in an "other" folder and you get no notification for it.


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

Berleen, I sent you a pic of the other side of that collar. I am getting so annoyed that I can't get them to show up on here. Maybe its a Mac thing. But I wanted to tell you that I love the timeline pics of Knuckles, he has changed so much.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

aww thanks


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I didn't get a chance to take a video today... too much running around in the vehicle, we didn't even get a walk in today! At least we had to mow the lake lot my parents have so they got an hour of running & play out there. 
Anyway, class tonight so I'm going to make sure we videotape his reaction to the dogs at class.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Kovacik76 said:


> But they have been trying their best to do 15 minutes a day with them at least every other day and after three weeks *their 55lb daughter can walk both 80#+ shepherds at the same time with no lunges or pulling even with other dogs charging at fences or cats running across the road.*





> Kovacik76 said:
> 
> 
> > *My 50lb, 6yo daughter can walk them both under any distraction we have came across and not get pulled.* *All we use are two 24" traffic leads, Sprenger neck-Tech pinch collars, and a Dogtra Edge e-collar*. QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

what consequences, if they can't be walked by her then I have not done my job in training them and I am three or four steps behind with the dogtra transmitter in my hand.


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Just another 2 cents from me... I have had reactivity issues whith 11 month old Stella for several months now. Worked with 2 different trainers in private sessions. Did not feel comfortable with either one. Started with a new trainer yesterday. Love her. She agreed that Stella's reactivity is mainly from frustration. Maybe a touch of uncertainty too. Basically, Stella is having a temper tantrum because she wants to go to the other dog or whatever and can't. I think it is important to know why a dog is reacting. I would imagine it makes a difference in how to correct the behavior. I tried a choke collar and no treats (recommended by trainer #2) and I although it seemed to work during the training session, in real life it was awful. Trainer #1 was very "rough" with hands on and no treats allowed. Just made Stella crazy. Trainer #3 (who I really like) is more into the positive reinforcement for Stella at this point. Treats allowed, toy reward allowed and lots and lots of engagement and encouragement. Corrections would be a time out corner for bad behavior, "leaving" Stella if she starts looking like she is going to react, and voice disapproval. I also learned a few things that I was doing incorrectly that I wasn't even aware of. I am not against prongs or e collars or whatever. I was just about ready to try a prong and who knows, if things start going south again....I may have to. But right now LAT, and engagement seems to be helping. You have to use what works for you and your dog.


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Something else. Until you've got him to the stage where you can walk him past dogs calmly - I'd leave your Labrador at home if possible. Sammy our dog behaved much better if our female Dalmation wasn't with us.
> Sue


Good advice. I can no longer walk both my dogs together. My 9 yr old can be reactive too (not frustrated, aggressive). Hard to handle 2 big dogs. And I can definitely work on Stella better without my other dog. So it is solo walks now.


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

a prong can fall off you can get a leather leash that will hold your prong and another collar in case your prong falls off it is always better to be safe


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

katdog, I'm glad you had other trainers around and that you got away from the "rough" trainer. Personally I can't stand a choke chain, I like a prong or a pinch of quality manufacture. (Herm Sprenger) For what its worth I have had excellent luck with using lots of treats and or high value toys as rewards when in the learning phase of a behavior with no corrections but after the lesson is learned I will introduce collar and verbal corrections if the command isn't followed but will still reward heavily for doing the proper action. Eventually I will cut the treats out of the equation and replace the treats with praise since that is a lot more handy an convenient on walks or other places we may go. I hope trainer three is still as well liked in a month or two. Please keep everyone posted on how it goes.

And yes pets4life you are 1000% dead on that prongs can come off at bad times, especially the cheaper ones and any type that has a quick release on them. That is why I avoid the generic ones and the quick release. And I also went to a reinforced synthetic leather since I have had leather leashes break. A.S.A.T. and RamTech have held up better than I ever expected and no more saddle soap and oil treatments. (guess I'm getting lazy)
But I will not let my boys out of the house on or off leash without their prongs an e-collars on. They are too important to risk going anywhere without those two items.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *Kovacik76*
> _But they have been trying their best to do 15 minutes a day with them at least every other day and after three weeks *their 55lb daughter can walk both 80#+ shepherds at the same time with no lunges or pulling even with other dogs charging at fences or cats running across the road.*_
> 
> 
> ...





jakes mom said:


> > I don't care how well trained a dog is, there is no way on this earth I would allow a six year old child to have control of one, nevermind two German Shepherds. Did it ever occur to you what the consequences of such actions may be?
> >
> > _________
> > Sue
> ...


----------



## Kovacik76 (Jun 15, 2010)

First of all, she has the leash so she is in control. I am just there to supervise. Second of all it isn't very responsible to not have a way to correct your dog at all times. It doesn't matter if it is a leash with a pinch collar and or an e-collar because their are too many stupid people out there that let untrained dogs run loose and have no control over them and no idea of how to even begin to control a dog. As far as recall is concerned, I can bring both of my k9's immediately back just by hitting the vibrate on their collar, it doesn't matter if it is a call off from a bite or running the neighbors cat from our yard. There is no yelling of commands and hoping that they stop, its just like a cell phone on vibrate and I get an immediate stop and full on run until they are sitting in front of me. Does that meet your definition of a solid recall, they don't even need to be told to leave it. And since you feel that having a pinch collar or e-collar on means that a dog isn't trained then I have to assume that you think all police K9's are untrained since lots of departments are making e-collars mandatory duty gear. Just for the record, my shepherds are moderate to high drive dogs and with that in mind I make sure that they will be under one form of control or another at ALL TIMES. All that I wanted to do was to explain to Berleen what could possibly help her with her issue and to make sure that if she was wanting to try this collar that I would help and advise in any possible way and to guide her into getting a good quality collar and not waste her money on junk. But since you have chosen to IMHO bad mouth me and my K9's I will inform you that IMO, until you personally have gotten certified as a Master Trainer AND have a Police Dog Handler certification, and have trained and placed good dogs with various police departments to keep your opinions to yourself. Especially when they do not pertain to helping with what this thread was originally about. This site has lost several good and very knowledgeable posters on here because of uneducated people such as yourself. Also just to be as clear as possible, this is directed at you(Jakes Mom).


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Kovacik76 said:


> First of all, she has the leash so she is in control. I am just there to supervise.
> You posted as though prong collars are so effective that even a six year old can control two GSD's even in a high distraction area with loads of cats and loose running untrained dogs. You did not originally say that that you were behind her with a shock collar.
> 
> I felt that I had to point out that this was not a wise or safe thing to do - I wouldn't want other people reading this forum to think it is.
> ...


 
I offered some advice to OP, which others disagreed with, fair enough we all have different opinions BUT my post was not read correctly. Just to reitereate my dog was like the OP's - far too wild and enthusiatic to get at other dogs, and unable to focus on anything else. I found that corrections increased his frustation and made him start to react aggressively - he was not aggressive originally. 

As I said earlier, I mistakenly thought the OP dogs was worse than he actually is, and I changed my advice accordingly. 

I apologise for the fact that this thread has been sidelined. 
__________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Just to add this in... even though the tread got a bit off track, I still thank both of you (and everyone) for their input. I'm honestly going to try both suggestions (let him calm down on his own & the prong)... this week I haven't been able to do anything because of rain & just being busy (and our training class being cancelled Tuesday). We've been on walks, but the rain keeps all other dogs in the house so there has been no reaction  

Not to mention, I haven't gotten the prong yet either.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Berleen 

I was just wondering if you've been working on the 'leave it' and getting Knuckles to release a tug on command. 

Get those strong and it'll make it so much easier - especially in situations you know Knuckles will react. Get that 'leave it' command in before he gets a chance to react. 
___________
Sue


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

jakes mom said:


> I offered some advice to OP, which others disagreed with, fair enough we all have different opinions BUT my post was not read correctly. Just to reitereate my dog was like the OP's - far too wild and enthusiatic to get at other dogs, and unable to focus on anything else. I found that corrections increased his frustation and made him start to react aggressively - he was not aggressive originally.
> 
> As I said earlier, I mistakenly thought the OP dogs was worse than he actually is, and I changed my advice accordingly.
> 
> ...


This thread has been the most educational & helpful of all that I have participated and read on this forum due in large part to the posts of Jakes's Mom Sue. I do not feel that she has anything to apologise for. She took time to study and think about her posts and others. Several of the posts recommended the use of the prong collar. She questioned carefully these posts and by doing so showed that the claims (a child can walk 2 GSDs that have prong collars on) were not valid. She explained how corrections in this situation can make the dog aggressive and offered alternative training options. Even this last comment she just made with the further explanation of the leave it command is very helpful to those of us who are not familiar with it and how the command can be used in this situation. It is easy to forget that this is an open forum and even though the OP and members on a thread may disagree with certain posts, the posts are open to all and can be found on internet searches.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> This thread has been the most educational & helpful of all that I have participated and read on this forum due in large part to the posts of Jakes's Mom Sue. I do not feel that she has anything to apologise for. *She took time to study and think about her posts and others.* Several of the posts recommended the use of the prong collar. She questioned carefully these posts and by doing so showed that the claims (a child can walk 2 GSDs that have prong collars on) were not valid. She explained how corrections in this situation can make the dog aggressive and offered alternative training options. Even this last comment she just made with the further explanation of the leave it command is very helpful to those of us who are not familiar with it and how the command can be used in this situation. It is easy to forget that this is an open forum and even though the OP and members on a thread may disagree with certain posts, the posts are open to all and can be found on internet searches.


Last I checked, no one said that she had anything to apologize for. I find the bolded part of your post somewhat interesting. Are you suggesting that others did not think about their posts? Many of us who suggested the use of a prong collar have loads of experience with that among many other training methods and tools - good and bad. I specifically said that the use of a prong collar on an aggressive dog can instigate a more aggressive response. I actually believe that I said that on more than one occasion. OP hasn't even gotten her collar yet, so who is to say that this dog will react aggressively? OP even said that the dog is not actually showing aggressive tendencies, just an out of control reaction. Case and point to what I've said now (at least 4 times) - an AGGRESSIVE dog can react AGGRESSIVELY to a correction, yet this is not a case involving an aggressive dog as we know.Yes, this is an open forum. No one on this thread has to be ashamed for suggesting the use of a prong collar or not. And frankly, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the comment about being able to search it on the internet.. We have the ability and right to disagree with each other.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi Berleen
> 
> I was just wondering if you've been working on the 'leave it' and getting Knuckles to release a tug on command.
> 
> ...


I haven't had the chance yet. I've used the crappy weather & non-busy times to work on his "Stay" which he seemed to somehow erase from his memory over the past few weeks. Yep, welcome to the teenage phase! Yaaa me. 

And GatorDog is right (and those who else said it), I am 95% sure it's not aggression he is showing, so I'm hoping that the prong or Sue's "leave it" idea works. 

Speaking of leave it... he has that down pat. At least with objects & with our Golden. If I say leave it, whatever he has is automatically dropped and if it's our Golden or one of the cats he backs off immediately, so I'm thinking that it MIGHT work with the barking/lunging at dogs (why I didn't think of this before I don't k now).


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi GatorDog

Although your post wasn't aimed at me directly I hope you don't mind me replying - in order for us all to move on. I know it was me who distracted from the original post - but I felt very strongly about the references to the children having control of the dogs and couldn't ignore it. 



GatorDog said:


> Last I checked, no one said that she had anything to apologize for.
> I think that was in response to the following comment by made Kovacik76
> 
> 
> ...


__________
Sue


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> And frankly, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the comment about being able to search it on the internet...


Here's an example: on the internet, just enter "German Shepherds prong collar use" and up will come many links that are from this forum. Not yet this particular thread - but it will happen. With an open forum, the items that are discussed are acccessible to all which means even if the OP or other posts on a particular thread do not agree with one's post or views that doesn't mean that it will not be helpful to someone whose dog has the same problem as the OP's dog.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally I would not recommend a prong collar for a reactive dog.



Mary Beth said:


> If the gentle leader you mentioned using is a head halter, that could be part of the problem, like the other posts suggested try a collar.


 Actually, I've found a head halter to be very helpful with my dog's leash reactivity. I believe the prong collar her previous owner used made her reactivity worse, although it may have temporarily suppressed the behavior while the prong was on. When I got her she was at the point where even just a leash attached to a regular buckle collar (any pressure on her neck) would greatly increase her reactivity, make it worse to the point where it put her on a hair trigger- let alone a prong collar; and a harness provided no control. 
If a dog is already reacting, a collar correction can be associated with the other dog and result in the dog becoming more reactive because they are learning other dog=correction. IMO, you want a positive association and to reward calm behavior around other dogs.
I originally tried using a front attach harness once I realized I needed to avoid neck pressure-- but still had a lack of control with that, if she decided to bark and lunge at another dog it was pretty much all I could do to hold on. Then we took a class specifically aimed at reactive dogs and the trainer recommended head collars, so we tried the Halti, and it made a huge difference. It helped to re-direct her attention away from other dogs so I could work on teaching her how to react appropriately, provided more control and also just wearing the Halti made her less likely to react to other dogs versus not having it on.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

After a lot of work and money with behaviorists, head collars, abandonment training with a fear reactive dog........5 minutes with a police officer helped me solve my problem using the prong. Beau wears a prong and I do not see it as a cruel tool at all. It mainly gets the dogs attention (hey, you, look at me)

No it was not sharply correcting the behavior when the dog was already ramped up but correction for failing to follow a command and not at that level. It is the perfect use for the heel command. Get the dog looking at you and correct for breaking attention. 

I also used fenced dogs as a training tool. Slowly decreasing my distance from them to where we could walk past with attention. Not doing it all at once.

Jakes mom has some good ideas but I would try to set that up with known reliable dogs. No and greet them until you can drill into his head that meeting other dogs is not dangerous? I would consider a basket muzzle to to defuse some of the tension. He is young and maybe you can get him past this........I don't know......

I know I am no fan of meet and greets but there is always some idiot with a loose dog or a flexi who assumes that you want your dog to meet and greet every dog out there......haha........try YOU doing that with a stranger (run up and hung a total stranger) and see what might happen. So you have to be prepared.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> abandonment training with a fear reactive dog


Can I ask what this is?



> I know I am no fan of meet and greets but there is always some idiot with a loose dog or a flexi who assumes that you want your dog to meet and greet every dog out there......haha........try YOU doing that with a stranger (run up and hung a total stranger) and see what might happen. So you have to be prepared.


I'm hoping to find someone to test this with.... I know I've mentioned that we have a biking/walking trail that we use. They aren't wide and it's woods/steep ditch on each side so it's hard to avoid anything on that trail. That is the perfect area that I NEED him not to react to other dogs. 

There is actually a guy that has 2 GSD's in town that I'd like to catch. He sometimes walks them in my neighborhood, but I'm not sure where he lives. I've watched him with them and they look like very good confident dogs. I just have to get the opportunity to talk to him without running out of my house like a wild woman screaming "hey you! GSD owner!" LMAO


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Best to let the experts explain. My leash reactive dog was a demo dog at a Trish King seminar.

http://www.positivelytrained.com/edu_resources/Abandonment_Training.pdf

Like I said, I ultimately resorted to corrections for failing to give me attention and heeling but your dog is young...may be more malleable.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Best to let the experts explain. My leash reactive dog was a demo dog at a Trish King seminar.
> 
> http://www.positivelytrained.com/edu_resources/Abandonment_Training.pdf
> 
> Like I said, I ultimately resorted to corrections for failing to give me attention and heeling but your dog is young...may be more malleable.


That is actually very surprising to me... I would never think that anyone would use abandonment as a training tool. What are you supposed to do if your dog keeps going for the other dog after you throw the leash at him?

I actually kind of did this the other day with Knuckles. A couple weeks ago he decided that he didn't like riding in the van anymore so instead of fighting with him, I left the side door open and said "fine, I'm going without you" and started the van and started to back out of the driveway. I got the same look that I got from my daughter when she was 3 years old and in a tantrum and I did the same thing LOL 
He got in the van when I stopped


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is done with a behaviorist who has a 2nd lead on the dog. I mentioned that we tried it.......directly with Trish King and a behaviorist who went with me to the seminar on dog agression...I would not try it on my own but it was just one of sevreal things we tried. Trish King is a pretty respected behaviorist, I believe. And at that seminar SHE said dogs don't need to play/meet/greet strange dogs in close proximiity.

Actually I think telling your dog "I expect you to look at me and heel" when we see another dog takes the decision to be scared away from the dog. You are now in change. It worked for me and I never saw that it "made it worse". I never ramped up a dog who was going off by correcting them. The correction was done at a distance for failure to comply and the gap was slowly closed over time.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> That is done with a behaviorist who has a 2nd lead on the dog. I mentioned that we tried it.......directly with Trish King and a behaviorist who went with me to the seminar on dog agression...I would not try it on my own but it was just one of sevreal things we tried.


Ok that makes much more sense! I just couldn't figure out why someone would just let their go.... it sort of contradicts everything else.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> After a lot of work and money with behaviorists, head collars, abandonment training with a fear reactive dog


Jocoyn

Berleen's dog is not fear reactive. He is over enthusiastic to meet and greet. 

As a matter of interest I agree that small corrections to get the dog's attention and a firm 'leave it' will work - it all depends on how reactive the dog is. A prong collar isn't a necessity though, a short sharp pull and release done correctly will break the focus for a firm 'leave it' no matter what training tool is used, even a harness. 

A seriously reactive dog, however, will ignore even severe corrections. Originally I was under the impression that Berleen's dog was much worse than he actually is. 

Personally I would never correct a fear aggressive dog. Our current dog Jake was fear aggressive and we slowly desensitized him to other dogs by treating him and reducing the distance, at a pace he was comfortable with. He's fine now - and will meet and greet - if allowed.

BTW I really like the idea of the abondonment training, and I see no reason why it would't work on a fearful dog. I'd be interesting in trying it out. BUT I don't think I fancy having another reactive dog just to try it out. :laugh: 

I'll go back to having a puppy next time. Severely reactive dogs are hard work and exhausting. 
_________
Sue


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

jakes mom said:


> As a matter of interest I agree that small corrections to get the dog's attention and a firm 'leave it' will work - it all depends on how reactive the dog is. A prong collar isn't a necessity though, a short sharp pull and release done correctly will break the focus for a firm 'leave it' no matter what training tool is used, even a harness.


Can you explain the process here? I'm just curious, because the way I am picturing it, If I had given my dog a leash correction when she was focusing on another dog (back when she was more reactive) it would have sent her into an instant lunging/barking reactivity fit, especially if a prong collar was involved.


I would recommend the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, or also you can try looking up LAT or "Look At That" as a method to work on reactivity. The book isn't solely focused on reactivity but a lot of the exercises can be helpful for reactive dogs, especially LAT... I haven't read it myself but I've also heard good things about the book Focus Not Fear: Training Insights from a Reactive Dog Class by Ali Brown.

One thing we did in the reactive dog class I took that I mentioned was to make a list of everything our dogs did before they had a full-blown barking/lunging reaction, and the order they did it. This was helpful as it made me more aware of all the little signs that indicate my dog is focusing on another dog or might be gearing up toward reacting badly. If you can recognize those early warning signs you can often prevent them from actually getting to the full-blown bark/lunge fit. For example if you are working on training if you see them showing these signs you can put some distance between them and the other dog so that you are able to keep at a distance where your dog's brain is still working, so to speak.


As far as abandonment training, I didn't read through the link provided but if it's what I think it is I agree that it can be useful however I think it probably is something that needs to be done under a trainer's supervision?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I want to clarify as several others had mentioned the prong and how I tried to represent its use.

You are NOT correcting agression, you are correcting a failure to comply with a command. With that goes graudal decreasing of the comfort zone. 

If the dog goes off you back the dog out............ You need to set the dog up for success and in this case the prong is "HEY, REMEMBER ME? LOOK AT ME!" 

The dog has to be at place where he is clear in the head for any use of the prong....at least that is how we use it. I would set it up so I knew where the dog was before my dog did and gave obedience commands with correction for non compliance. Never pushing the dog beyond its comfort zone. And with the correction for failure goes reward for compliance. 

If it is not reactivity what we did early one with Beau and a neighbor "bud" (they don't play but meet and greet) is that there is no meeting and greeting without some obedience and a sit first.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Berleen's dog is not fear reactive. He is over enthusiastic to meet and greet.


In my unprofessional opinion, but as his owner, I think he's both. Only because thats how he started out - when I picked him up from the BYB he screamed as I pulled him out of the doghouse and he's cautious of most everything. 

He does the bark, back up, sneak forward, bark again at some people (mostly men) for a few minutes until he gets the guts to go up and smell them. There has *NEVER EVER* been a lunge or a snap at a person though, but I make **** sure nobody tries to go towards him when he's like this - I make sure they know just to give him his couple minutes.


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

i've tried a gentle leader and had little success. my dogs do MUCH better off leash than on as well. i don't know how to fix the problem other than to redirect or distract. 

i prefer a harness to a collar. for some reason i have better control. i've also heard that some dogs don't do well on collars and get more reactive because once they start pulling they feel like they are choking on a collar. this results in more stress and more aggressive behavior. i may be completely wrong about this though but it made sense to me. see if a harness works better for you?


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Wow .....This thread is starting to get very confused.

The problem with reactive dogs is the fact that there are so many different reasons why they are reactive. And the degree of their reactivity - some dogs will just pull towards others dogs, others will lunge, others will lunge aggressively, and others will take your arm out of your socket or drag you down the road as they try and get to another dog. While others will hide behind their owners and shake, or pull like crazy to get away.

Each dog is different and they need different handling.

The problem is, humans force dogs into situations they can't cope with because they are restrained by a leash. If dogs are off leash they understand each others body language and behave accordingly. They are free to run away from a dominant or aggressive dog. They can completely ignore other dogs or they can engage and be as social as they wish. Dogs understand each other one h*ll of a lot better than humans do. 

They would not approach each other head on for instance. They eye each other up and decide the best course of action. They give off signals to each other to let each other know how they feel. Apparently dogs the world over all give off the same body language signals. They say things to other dogs by their body language, such as "I am not a threat to you" or "I'm in charge here, you'd better clear off " or "I really want to play" for example 

Some dogs are afraid of other dogs and people - but it can come over as though they are aggressive when on leash or trapped. 

All animals have basic instincts when faced with a perceived threat. They can assess a situation and decide whether the safest option is to run away, fight their corner, or freeze or hide and hope they are not noticed. It's known as the fight or flight option (someone mentioned it earlier I think). 

Dogs on a leash lose the option of running away (flight) and often resort to the only option left and that's trying to scare the perceived threat away (fight). Very few dogs actually want to fight, as it's a pretty risky business - they could end up seriously injured or dead. So although they may sound and look very aggressive it's mainly posturing - in order to drive the other dog away - because they are actually scared, but humans have taken away their option of running away by restraining them on a leash.

That's just scratching the surface of why dogs react. It's sometimes difficult for humans to actually judge if dogs are fearful, aggressive, over enthusiastic or just don't know to 'read' other dogs or how to behave towards them. 

Probably the best way to judge is to study how the dogs behave when they are off leash - or on a very loose leash and allowed the freedom to make their own decisions from a long distance away. Do they want to engage with other dogs to play, run away from them, try and drive them away or fight them. 

Imo without the chance to really study them off leash and be sure how they react - it's wiser to assume they're fearful - that way you're less likely to mess things up. 

Geez I hope that makes sense. 



Kittilicious said:


> In my unprofessional opinion, but as his owner, I think he's both. Only because thats how he started out - when I picked him up from the BYB he screamed as I pulled him out of the doghouse and he's cautious of most everything.
> 
> He does the bark, back up, sneak forward, bark again at some people (mostly men) for a few minutes until he gets the guts to go up and smell them. There has *NEVER EVER* been a lunge or a snap at a person though, but I make **** sure nobody tries to go towards him when he's like this - I make sure they know just to give him his couple minutes.


From what you've just said it seems like Knuckles is slightly afraid of people. 

From your earlier post I got the impression that Knuckles is happy with dogs though. 

Just in case we've got it wrong Berleen perhaps you can clarify what you actually think, as you're the only one who really knows Knuckles. 

Is he ok with dogs but not too sure about people ? or........
__________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Wow .....This thread is starting to get very confused.
> 
> From what you've just said it seems like Knuckles is slightly afraid of people.
> 
> ...


Threads usually do when they get this long. People forget what people say, think someone else said it, etc.

He's not necessarily afraid of people, unsure is a better word, but he voices it when he is, but not in a vicious way. Just a "hey I don't know you" bark. But it doesn't take long for him to warm up. There are very few girls/women that he has ever barked yet. Men, almost always. He loves kids, absolutley adores them as long as they are not riding anything with wheels :wild: He HATES tricycles! 
The whole reason I started this thread is because when he is at training and/or on leash he lunges/barks at dogs. The dogs at class he does act like he wants to kill them, but there is no "snapping" - does that make sense? The lunging/barking is worse than if we are walking down the road... and it's random. One minute he's fine, then BAM! He lunges & barks in class. But I really believe it's because we are in a vet's office waiting room - it's small and confined. (Not to mention that we are kind of seperated from the other dogs, off in a corner by ourselves) 

On leash he barks/pulls at dogs when we are walking, especially the Golden, Sam, that lives a few houses down (Sam also barks at Knuckles). He is the one where his owner leaves Sam out because he knows I'm working with Knuckles. But he doesn't bark at the same level like he does in class. 

Now... off leash. There has been a few incidents since class started that confused me, which is why I started this thread. 

1. We had a small dog come to our house, never been here before. Knuckles was fine. Wanted to smell & follow him around, even though this dog was barking at him & trying to run from him. 
2. About 2 weeks ago Knuckles was off leash at my parents house. A man & his small dog walked past and Knuckles saw them before we did - he trotted out to meet them. The man was afraid and trying to get his dog from Knuckles, but Knuckles was circling him trying to get a sniff of the dog. K's hackles were up but there was no barking, growling, nothing. 
3. Another time K was off leash at my parents and their neighbor dog was let out of the kennel (neighbors didn't know K was over). Joker (black lab) ran towards K barking... K barked like mad, hackles up but ran the other direction, but at the same time I was yelling his name and Come! (We don't have recall down 100% so I think it was more "oh crap, he's gonna get me" than "Mom said to come") 
4. Walking past another neighbor of my parents, their black lab (Penny, a female) was in her kennel and was barking at K. K started whining as we were walking by. No barking, hackles, just whining. (which is why I asked in an earlier post if it matter if the dog was male or female... Sam & Joker are males) 

And to add one more number for today - 
5. Got the prong collar today and decided to try it. Walked by Sam (the Golden), barked like normal. I said "leave it" with a small snap of the collar and he just kept walking. Yep, I got excited and he got a bunch of "good boy"'s! Then a few blocks down there is a yellow lab that HATES dogs, but we rarely walk this way, but we did. Lab was barking like crazy and jumping on the kennels walls towards Knuckles. Looking at Knuckles you would swear there was no Lab barking at him.  He just kept walking and oh boy you bet did I do a lot of GOOD BOY!
But then on the way back we passed a little dog in a yard that was tied out. K was whining/barking a bit and then settled (after a leave it & snap of the collar). I put him in a sit but wouldn't you know, the dogs owner came out and brought the dog in *sigh* 

Does that help try to bring all this back together at what I was getting at from the title post of this thread until now?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It sounds like the prong was helpful for you? I am assuming these were small corrections and LOTs of praise? Am I missing something? (It is late)

I would work towards having a command for him to follow as you walked back so it was not so much "leave it" but "look at me". It is such a good way to use heeling on a walk.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

In my dog's case, she was great with other dogs off leash. Interestingly, she didn't even have a problem being approached by off-leash dogs if she was on leash, the issue was her on leash seeing other dogs on leash.

I guess I just don't understand how 'snapping' a prong collar when the dog is barking at another dog is supposed to help improve a dog's attitude towards or confidence around other dogs? I'd think that it is important to get to the heart of the issue rather than just to suppress/halt the behavior?

I'd also be concerned that the dog may associate the corrections with the presence of the other dogs and thus cause them to become more reactive towards other dogs in the future. I think this is what happened with my dog due to her previous owners' methods of dealing with her reacting towards other dogs (which I think is also why any neck pressure greatly lowered her reactivity threshold.)


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> In my dog's case, she was great with other dogs off leash. Interestingly, she didn't even have a problem being approached by off-leash dogs if she was on leash, the issue was her on leash seeing other dogs on leash.
> 
> *I guess I just don't understand how 'snapping' a prong collar when the dog is barking at another dog is supposed to help improve a dog's attitude towards or confidence around other dogs? I'd think that it is important to get to the heart of the issue rather than just to suppress/halt the behavior?*
> 
> I'd also be concerned that the dog may associate the corrections with the presence of the other dogs and thus cause them to become more reactive towards other dogs in the future. I think this is what happened with my dog due to her previous owners' methods of dealing with her reacting towards other dogs (which I think is also why any neck pressure greatly lowered her reactivity threshold.)


As you walk by a strange dog you would give the command "leave it" or "watch me" or something along those lines. If the dog does not comply and obey the command, he is corrected for_ that_. They will be more comfortable knowing that you are in charge of it and nothing bad will happen as long as long as focus is on the handler and not another dog/person. It teaches them that you are in control of the situation and they don't need to take it into their own hands. 

As stated before, no method works the same way for every dog. This is just my experience with the prong as well as other members of my Schutzhund club with reactive dogs.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, what Alexis said. 

It is NOT the same as correcting the lunging dog who will probably need a significant correction which will ramp them up and be counterproductive. It is a light correction for non compliance.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> It sounds like the prong was helpful for you? I am assuming these were small corrections and LOTs of praise? Am I missing something? (It is late)
> 
> I would work towards having a command for him to follow as you walked back so it was not so much "leave it" but "look at me". It is such a good way to use heeling on a walk.


Yep, I gave him so much praise I probably looked like I'd lost my mind LOL I was pretty impressed with him yesterday. 
And yes, the snap correction (which really wasn't much) was after I said "leave it" and he didn't respond to that, so I said it again at the same time I gave a small pull on the leash. 
"Leave it" works well for us. We use it in the house when he needs to leave our Golden or our cats alone. I sort of let him pick the command because when I give the command it's like automatic ignore. If he's carrying something and I say "leave it", he drops it and walks away from it. If I say it when I need him to back off of Saki, he'll actually turn his head away from her and walk away. So it's working for us  He seemed to associate the command with just ignoring whatever it is. 



> In my dog's case, she was great with other dogs off leash. Interestingly, she didn't even have a problem being approached by off-leash dogs if she was on leash, the issue was her on leash seeing other dogs on leash.


I am curious how Knuckles would react in this situation, but we really haven't come across it. We've gone up to off leash dogs that he already knows on leash and he was fine, but not a new dog. Although he does have the same reaction (the barking) to dogs in their yards that are behind invisible fencing. Not sure if that counts as the same thing or not.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

HI Berleen

When I read your post below, I thought "wow- we've got it wrong, Knuckles isn't ok with other dogs - he's fearful or at the very least wary and unsure and really doesn't know how to behave" 

I wondered how much he had been socialized, so I decided to read your earlier posts - something I normally do anyway before I reply to such threads - but if I'm honest when I saw how many posts you'd made in the past I decided it would take too long and I didn't bother - that's taught me a lesson.

I now know that you had Knuckles when he was only five weeks old - and his only real socialization has been with dogs he knows well. He's had some not so good experiences where he's been somewhat swamped by a group of boys and groups of dogs. 

Because of all these things you really need to tread carefully with Knuckles, otherwise you could end up with a fear aggressive dog, made so much worse by inappropriate corrections.

For the benefit of everyone who's contributing to, or reading this thread I've copied a couple of your earlier posts as well. 



Kittilicious said:


> Threads usually do when they get this long. People forget what people say, think someone else said it, etc.
> 
> He's not necessarily afraid of people, unsure is a better word, but he voices it when he is, but not in a vicious way. Just a "hey I don't know you" bark. But it doesn't take long for him to warm up. There are very few girls/women that he has ever barked yet. Men, almost always. He loves kids, absolutley adores them as long as they are not riding anything with wheels :wild: He HATES tricycles!
> The whole reason I started this thread is because when he is at training and/or on leash he lunges/barks at dogs. The dogs at class he does act like he wants to kill them, but there is no "snapping" - does that make sense? The lunging/barking is worse than if we are walking down the road... and it's random. One minute he's fine, then BAM! He lunges & barks in class. But I really believe it's because we are in a vet's office waiting room - it's small and confined. (Not to mention that we are kind of seperated from the other dogs, off in a corner by ourselves)
> ...





> An Obedience Puppy class finally started in my area. I missed the class in my town by one day, so I called the trainer only to find out that nobody signed up for the class anyway.  But she is holding a class in a neighboring town once a week and Knuckles can still get into that one. There are only 4 other dogs in the class - 2 large, 2 small.
> 
> I gave her a brief rundown of Knuckles' issues (separation anxiety, fear of other large dogs, hyperness around small dogs, fear of men, etc.). I told her of his background too... backyard breeder, breeder wanting him gone because he looked like a mutt, getting him at 5 weeks. I also told her that he potty trained real easy and his basic tricks he already knows (sit, laydown, stay, turn, bang, sit pretty, high five, shake, speak, howl, go in your puppybed). She said he sounds like an interesting case - not sure to take that as a good thing or not.
> 
> I haven't met her yet, only phone conversations but so far I like her. She also does private training, too, if need be.





> Knuckles is a fearful, non-confident dog. We are working on this and making progress, but I know he will never be a fearless, confident dog. He's getting to the age where I can have him neutered, but I just don't know what to do. Eventually I do want him fixed only because even though I have no intentions on giving him an opportunity to go have some big boy fun (by accident or not), things happen and I don't want to be responsible for one more oops litter in the world. So my question is - do you think waiting until he's older will make a difference? Giving him his full "manhood", for lack of a better word (not enough coffee yet), will help with his confidence/fearfulness during his development or does it even play a part in it?


 
As jocoyn says below, if any corrections are given (which I personally never would do) they are given at a distance, not close up to other dogs. 



> Actually I think telling your dog "I expect you to look at me and heel" when we see another dog takes the decision to be scared away from the dog. You are now in change. It worked for me and I never saw that it "made it worse". I never ramped up a dog who was going off by correcting them. *The correction was done at a distance for failure to comply and the gap was slowly closed over time. *


This quote from Chicagocanie pretty much sums up my worries.



Chicagocanine said:


> I guess I just don't understand how 'snapping' a prong collar when the dog is barking at another dog is supposed to help improve a dog's attitude towards or confidence around other dogs? I'd think that it is important to get to the heart of the issue rather than just to suppress/halt the behavior?
> 
> I'd also be concerned that the dog may associate the corrections with the presence of the other dogs and thus cause them to become more reactive towards other dogs in the future. I think this is what happened with my dog due to her previous owners' methods of dealing with her reacting towards other dogs (which I think is also why any neck pressure greatly lowered her reactivity threshold.)


In my opinion you need to build up K's confidence around strange dogs, but at a distance. He has to feel good - it's not something you can force.

I'll find out the post that I did regarding how we handled our current dog Jake - he's fear aggressive, and I'll post it here later - you'll then have options to consider. 

Perhaps you could have a on to one trianing session with your trainer. She could then witness Knuckle's behaviour first hand in his environment and on walks.
__________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> I now know that you had Knuckles when he was only five weeks old - and his only real socialization has been with dogs he knows well. He's had some not so good experiences where he's been somewhat swamped by a group of boys and groups of dogs.


Where did I say he was swamped by a group of dogs?



> Perhaps you could have a on to one trianing session with your trainer. She could then witness Knuckle's behaviour first hand in his environment and on walks.


Yeah, probably not. After 6 weeks with this class I'm not impressed with her. I honestly believe that I know more about dog behavior than she does. But we have 2 weeks left, so we are just going to finish it up and let it be in the past. I wish there were other training options for me in my area, but there isn't.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

After thinking about it, I think I know what you are talking about. When he was younger and we would go to my husband's sisters house where she has 3 GSD's (including Knuckles' father & littermate) and he would cower and pee? Thats over and done with now - now when we go out there he can't get out of the van fast enough to go play with them. There is no fear whatsoever with them now. He's crying & whining a mile down the road before we even get to their house - he knows who is waiting for him at the end of the road!


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I have to say, I really do not like the gentle leader. I have seen dogs do damage to their necks because of lunging behaviour. The gentle leader snaps the head around because it's attached beneath the muzzle. Try a halter that connects to the back of the head, the Canny Collar is a good example of this.

I would be enforcing solid obedience and enforcing a strong "leave it". A prong collar may be a good tool to keep other dogs and people safe in this situation. Just make sure you learn how to use it properly.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> After thinking about it, I think I know what you are talking about. When he was younger and we would go to my husband's sisters house where she has 3 GSD's (including Knuckles' father & littermate) and he would cower and pee? Thats over and done with now - now when we go out there he can't get out of the van fast enough to go play with them. There is no fear whatsoever with them now. He's crying & whining a mile down the road before we even get to their house - he knows who is waiting for him at the end of the road!


That's really good - it's show how k can be more confident and overcome his fears.

If you have read of this thread you'll see how we handled Jake and how other posters are turning their dogs around.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/183239-fear-manifestation.html 

A great deal of my original post about Sammy still applies, especially how to handle Knuckles when you're forced into close contact with other dogs. 



> If you meet other dogs in the street, either cross the road or turn around and walk the other way. Always give approaching dogs a wide berth if possible. Dogs don't naturally approach each other head on, they give each other a wide berth and approach from the side or rear.
> 
> Pay special care when going around corners. Tell Knuckles to wait, hold his leash short and look around the corner yourself first. Be prepared to turn and go the other way if necessary to avoid problems, or just hang back a while.
> 
> ...


If I were you I would avoid the track that you can walk down and stick to the park if possible just to build up k's confidence around strange dogs.

If you have to pass other dogs behind gates or fences keep as much distance as possible. Don't stop outside the gates with dogs barking - that will just stress him. 

Arm yourself with some tasty treats and a squeaky toy (or whatever he likes best to play with - so he gets to associate dogs with nice, fun things. 

If he's not too bothered about treats, take him for a walk when he's likely to be feeling hungry, or even cut his food down at home - he's more likely to accept them. 

Be aware that a dog who likes treats but refuses to take them may well be stressed - increase the distance and try him again. 

This is useful info from Chigocanines post



> I would recommend the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, or also you can try looking up LAT or "Look At That" as a method to work on reactivity. The book isn't solely focused on reactivity but a lot of the exercises can be helpful for reactive dogs, especially LAT... I haven't read it myself but I've also heard good things about the book Focus Not Fear: Training Insights from a Reactive Dog Class by Ali Brown.
> 
> One thing we did in the reactive dog class I took that I mentioned was to make a list of everything our dogs did before they had a full-blown barking/lunging reaction, and the order they did it. This was helpful as it made me more aware of all the little signs that indicate my dog is focusing on another dog or might be gearing up toward reacting badly. If you can recognize those early warning signs you can often prevent them from actually getting to the full-blown bark/lunge fit. For example if you are working on training if you see them showing these signs you can put some distance between them and the other dog so that you are able to keep at a distance where your dog's brain is still working, so to speak.
> 
> ...


________
Sue


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Kittilicious said:


> The whole reason I started this thread is because when he is at training and/or on leash he lunges/barks at dogs. The dogs at class he does act like he wants to kill them, but there is no "snapping" - does that make sense? ..
> On leash he barks/pulls at dogs when we are walking, especially the Golden, Sam, that lives a few houses down "
> 
> Now... off leash. There has been a few incidents since class started that confused me, which is why I started this thread.
> ...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> Best to let the experts explain. My leash reactive dog was a demo dog at a Trish King seminar.
> 
> http://www.positivelytrained.com/edu_resources/Abandonment_Training.pdf
> 
> Like I said, I ultimately resorted to corrections for failing to give me attention and heeling but your dog is young...may be more malleable.


Oh wow, I just saw this - I'm about an hour from the Marin Humane Society, where Trish King was the Director of Behavior and Training (she just retired a couple of months ago), and we took the Difficult Dog class for reactive dogs there in 2001 with Cassidy. Trish was the instructor for the class, and in order to register we had to have a consult with her first. Actually, the first time we met, Trish decided that Cassidy wasn't ready for the class yet and suggested we take her out of classes for a few months and just let her calm down and mature a bit more. We brought her back for a second consult and got the approval to take the class. By then she was about a year old.

In the second consult we did Abandonment Training using Trish's Terv Ariel as the other dog, who was handled by someone else. Trish had a long line on Cassidy, and we had a 6 foot leash. Cassidy was highly leash reactive, and she was definitely a "flight" dog, not a confident one. It was like magic with her, when she realized that we were leaving and she was on her own there was a brief "oh crap!" moment and then she bailed and ran to us, where we threw a big party with a jackpot of treats. 

We did this maybe 5 or 6 times over a period of 20 minutes or so, and at first she'd react to the other dog from across the agility field, as soon as the helper walked Ariel around the corner and was within our sight. By the end we were walking the dogs towards and past each other with only about 3 feet between them and no reaction whatsoever. We also did it in the class with all the other dogs. 

It can be extremely affective, but like anything else, needs to be generalized to a variety of other places and with other dogs. Once you have the technique down it's possible to practice on your own, holding both leashes, but it's much easier to do in a controlled situation with a helper. Because Trish had a better view of Cassidy's face and was more skilled at reading dog behavior she was watching for signs of increased tension and was able to cue us right before Cassidy exploded into barking and lunging. Timing is very important.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GatorDog said:


> As you walk by a strange dog you would give the command "leave it" or "watch me" or something along those lines. If the dog does not comply and obey the command, he is corrected for_ that_.


I understand the dog is being corrected for ignoring the command, but that doesn't mean the dog knows that. Just because the correction was for something else does not mean the dog won't associate it with the other dog. Dogs make associations other than the ones we want them to all the time. If the reason the dog ignored the command was because he was distracted by the other dog, why would he not connect the correction with the other dog? If he's looking at or paying attention to the other dog when the correction is given (which is why he did not respond to the command) it is not unlikely that the correction would be associated with the other dog.
If he was so distracted by or focused on the other dog that he did not hear the command and respond to it, he might not realize what the correction was actually for, which may make him even more likely to connect it to the other dog. 
IMO if he did not respond to the "watch me" or "leave it" command most likely this means either you are too close to the other dog and are over your dog's threshold/he is too focused on the other dog; or it means he has not fully learned the "watch me" or "leave it" training yet and that is why he isn't responding in this distracting situation. In either case it sounds like he needs to work more on learning the command, and IMO would be better served by having more practice in a less distracting situation instead, or by working at a distance where he is still able to focus on you.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Berleen 

Did you read the link to the other thread that I posted (below)
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...festation.html 

Do have more idea how to handle things now, or are you going to continue with the prong collar and 'leave it'? 

If you are it's up to you, but please be aware of the problems you may encounter later on. At the very least - keep your distance from other dogs, as Chicagocanine explained. 
________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Honestly, I haven't tried much of anything yet, there just hasn't been a chance. I have tried the prong twice so far on short walks though and both times I was pretty impressed. The other day we walked up to our driveway after a walk and the neighbors Great Dane (a friend) was out side with her friend that we had never seen before (a yellow lab). Knuckles whined a bit and I said "no, leave it" (and also said "Bella has a friend over you can't go play with her right now" LOL) and he whined a bit then just stood and watched. My husband & I just stared at each other. He should have been protesting, jumping, barking, lunging screaming "I WANNA GO BY BELLA!", especially since there was another dog he didn't know there, but he wasn't. We were 10 yards away maybe? 

Is it the prong? I don't know. I am having him wear it to class tonight even though the trainer doesn't want any type of training collars.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> IMO if he did not respond to the "watch me" or "leave it" command most likely this means either you are too close to the other dog and are over your dog's threshold/he is too focused on the other dog; or it means he has not fully learned the "watch me" or "leave it" training yet and that is why he isn't responding in this distracting situation. In either case it sounds like he needs to work more on learning the command, and IMO would be better served by having more practice in a less distracting situation instead, or by working at a distance where he is still able to focus on you.


I didn't get to edit fast enough, sorry for the double post. 

He has a good "leave it" already. Works great on squirrels & rabbits and even those irresistible leaves that run by! 
The dogs that we pass, we pass across the street. I know where each dog lives so I know which side of the road to walk on. Some dogs he reacts to, some he doesn't. 
He does hear the commands, I know that because he does look at me when I say it, but then he goes back to the reacting to the dog. 
I still need to get a video of his reaction, but if this prong is working right (or if I'm using it right, I should say, which I am pretty sure I am) then I won't get the opportunity to get a video of his reaction.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't know if this advice was given, but since I feel it is detrimental to the dog to take advice about a potentially reactive dog from people who have never seen him in person....what is your trainer saying about this?


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> I understand the dog is being corrected for ignoring the command, but that doesn't mean the dog knows that. Just because the correction was for something else does not mean the dog won't associate it with the other dog. Dogs make associations other than the ones we want them to all the time. If the reason the dog ignored the command was because he was distracted by the other dog, why would he not connect the correction with the other dog? If he's looking at or paying attention to the other dog when the correction is given (which is why he did not respond to the command) it is not unlikely that the correction would be associated with the other dog.
> If he was so distracted by or focused on the other dog that he did not hear the command and respond to it, he might not realize what the correction was actually for, which may make him even more likely to connect it to the other dog.
> IMO if he did not respond to the "watch me" or "leave it" command most likely this means either you are too close to the other dog and are over your dog's threshold/he is too focused on the other dog; or it means he has not fully learned the "watch me" or "leave it" training yet and that is why he isn't responding in this distracting situation. In either case it sounds like he needs to work more on learning the command, and IMO would be better served by having more practice in a less distracting situation instead, or by working at a distance where he is still able to focus on you.



It is absolutely a fantastic idea to work on the command without distractions at first, but it is unrealistic to have to keep your dog from going on walks because their command isn't bomb-proof. It goes the same way for most obedience commands that a dog learns. That does not mean that you shouldn't practice outside around those distractions. I have been using a prong collar in my Schutzhund obedience for years now. My dog doesn't want to go out for a trial and act aggressive towards anyone and anything on the field because he has been corrected there before. And it would probably be better with a dog that is already showing signs of aggression towards other dogs to keep a distance or not use a prong at all, but once again (for the fourth time now, I think), THIS DOG DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE AGGRESSIVE. Not every dog that uses a prong collar associated the correction with another dog and suddenly becomes dog aggressive.


It sounds like Knuckles is doing well. Keep us posted!


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I don't know if this advice was given, but since I feel it is detrimental to the dog to take advice about a potentially reactive dog from people who have never seen him in person....what is your trainer saying about this?


I think I said it a few pages ago, maybe it was in another thread. I don't have much faith in my trainer anymore. I think I know more about dogs behavior than she does. 
You really want to know what she said about why Knuckles reacts like this on leash? "I just don't know why that would be". (or something along those lines) That is why I came here... because the trainer couldn't help me. 
She is very impressed at how well trained he is in commands & such, but that has been all me, nothing that the class has taught him. 



> THIS DOG DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE AGGRESSIVE. Not every dog that uses a prong collar associated the correction with another dog and suddenly becomes dog aggressive.


Gator is right. I'm so sure he doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. Fearful & unsure and a playful pup, you bet. Even with some people (mostly men) that he barks at - most people would see "mean attack dog", but I can tell he's just scared & not so sure about the person. And I watch him like a hawk in those situations because of fear biting, but Knuckles has NEVER done a snap of any kind towards a person/dog. Heck the only way you can see is teeth is if you can catch them in a bark (so he's not snarling). 

And no, I'm not dumb enough to think a fear bite still would never happen.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would definitely find a different trainer. I wouldn't have any faith in your trainer after that statement either. I found a really good one by looking up the local Schutzhund club and found their trainer. Has anyone been able to suggest a trainer in your area for you? Have you searched for a different one?

My personal experience with the prong collar and Jax was that it made her more reactive.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I would definitely find a different trainer. I wouldn't have any faith in your trainer after that statement either. I found a really good one by looking up the local Schutzhund club and found their trainer. Has anyone been able to suggest a trainer in your area for you? Have you searched for a different one?
> 
> My personal experience with the prong collar and Jax was that it made her more reactive.


Unless they are unsearchable, the only other trainers are the classes at Petco/Petsmart 20+ miles away. I know there must be some in the Minneapolis/St Paul area, but thats a good 2 hour drive for me and although it's not completely out of the question if I can't do this on my own, right now it doesn't seem to make it worth the gas to do it.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GatorDog said:


> It is absolutely a fantastic idea to work on the command without distractions at first, but it is unrealistic to have to keep your dog from going on walks because their command isn't bomb-proof. It goes the same way for most obedience commands that a dog learns. That does not mean that you shouldn't practice outside around those distractions.


Of course not, but if you are dealing with a dog with reactivity, it is very hard to work with them when they are over threshold. They are not going to be able to learn much of anything in that state of mind, so it is best to work under the dog's threshold or right near the threshold when you are asking them to do something like "leave it" or "watch me". This usually means working at a distance away from the distraction, or slowly adding distractions as the dog's focus improves, you don't just stick them in the middle of the distraction and then expect them to listen perfectly and punish them for not doing so, do you? Just like you wouldn't stick a dog who is just starting to learn to sit or to heel in the middle of a parade and expect them to perform flawlessly. When out with the dog obviously you can't always control the situation when other dogs are present, but you can control your distances to them and if you learn how to read your dog you can often predict when you are getting close to your dog's threshold and should back off a bit, or when it's ok to approach.



GatorDog said:


> I have been using a prong collar in my Schutzhund obedience for years now. My dog doesn't want to go out for a trial and act aggressive towards anyone and anything on the field because he has been corrected there before. And it would probably be better with a dog that is already showing signs of aggression towards other dogs to keep a distance or not use a prong at all, but once again (for the fourth time now, I think), THIS DOG DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE AGGRESSIVE. Not every dog that uses a prong collar associated the correction with another dog and suddenly becomes dog aggressive.


I don't think I said anywhere that the dog was aggressive or that this would cause aggression. Reactivity does not equal aggression. My reactive dog was definitely NOT aggressive and I was not implying their dog was either.

I was also not saying that any dog that uses a prong is going to become dog aggressive, but rather that when there is _already _a reactivity issue present that using corrections can be risky. Correcting a dog when they are reacting to a trigger-- in this case the trigger being other dogs-- can cause the dog to associate the correction with the trigger. A reactive dog already has some type of issue with this trigger whether it is due to fear, anxiety, frustration, over-excitement, aggression or other. Giving negative reinforcement in the presence of the trigger can make this worse. That's all I meant.
If it works for their dog though, that's great, however it is a potential issue and since I had to work so hard to rebuild my own dog's confidence after her history with prong collar and reactivity issues and it's been such a long road to deal with her reactivity, I felt it was important to discuss.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

GatorDog

If you go back and read post #97 you will see that after reading earlier threads from the OP that it's apparent that Knuckles is a fearful dog, who left his mom and litter at 5 weeks and is undersocialized with strange dogs. He is fearful or wary around strange dogs, men, and tricycles . 

IMO you do not correct a fearful dog, as the corrections may well be associated with the other dog and there is a danger it will lead to fear aggression. You cannot correct out fear - you need to teach the dog how to cope with it, by desensitization. 

If he gets an opportunity off leash - he could attack another dog if he cannot run away or drive him away. I'm not saying he will - but he could.



GatorDog said:


> It is absolutely a fantastic idea to work on the command without distractions at first, but it is unrealistic to have to keep your dog from going on walks because their command isn't bomb-proof. It goes the same way for most obedience commands that a dog learns. That does not mean that you shouldn't practice outside around those distractions.


No-one as suggested that Knuckles doesn't go on walks - just that Berleen ensures she keeps him at safe distance from other dogs as much as possible, until he feels better about other dogs. He needs desensitizing to other dogs, so that he learns to trust his owner not to put him into situaltions that he isn't comfortable with - or he trusts his owner to cope with them on his behalf. Once he obeys commands at a safe distance from other dogs - the distance can be decreased. 

How will corrections make him feel good about other dogs? They may well make him stop reacting - but they will not stop him feeling afraid, in fact they will probably make him feel more afraid, because not only does he have a dog infront of him he's unsure of, but he also gets a pain in the neck for showing he's afraid. If that happens he's likely to react more, in a fruitless attempt to drive the other dog away, and the corrections will get harsher. 

*Treating a reactive dog as though he is fearful will do no harm - using correction and forcing him too close to other dogs might. Why risk making the situation worse?*



GatorDog said:


> And it would probably be better with a dog that is already showing signs of aggression towards other dogs to keep a distance or not use a prong at all, but once again (for the fourth time now, I think), THIS DOG DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE AGGRESSIVE. Not every dog that uses a prong collar associated the correction with another dog and suddenly becomes dog aggressive.


No, of course every dog who receives a correction will not become aggressive. But the OP's dog is already reactive - he does bark and lunge - it could so easily turn into real aggression. 

IMO a harness like the one that Mary Beth suggested (or similar) and keeping at a safe distance from other dogs is the way to go. Or the abandoment method that Jocoyn and Cassidy' Mom described - but they both recommend a trainer needs to be involved initially at least.
_________
Sue


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kittilicious said:


> Unless they are unsearchable, the only other trainers are the classes at Petco/Petsmart 20+ miles away. I know there must be some in the Minneapolis/St Paul area, but thats a good 2 hour drive for me and although it's not completely out of the question if I can't do this on my own, right now it doesn't seem to make it worth the gas to do it.


Driving a long distance once every 3-4 weeks is absolutely worth it. My trainer is an hour from me. I go every 3 weeks due to my time, money and distance. That 3 weeks gives me plenty of time to work on what she's taught me.

I think ppl get stuck on going weekly and are intimidated into thinking they can't drive a distance. Look outside your area. You really need to work on this while he's young so you aren't fighting it his entire life.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

"I also feel if I make a mistake with PR-based training, it can usually be pretty easily fixed, but if I make a mistake with compulsion-based training, the new adopter may have a hard time reversing it .... our club members use e-collars, but these are OUR dogs, if we make a mistake, we live with the consequences..." 

This is an excerpt from San's post #94 on the Forum: Training Theory: shelters/rescues against correction. For this thread just think prong collar for e-collar. I have quoted it here because it is very pertinent to this thread. If compulsion training is used on Knuckles (the prong collar) and a mistake is make, then as Jakes Mom and Chicagocanine have pointed out - it is going to take a lot of energy, time, and work (and I may add expense in trainer's fees and travel ) to reverse the damage that was done. Before it's too late, try the harness - 30 day money back guarantee if it doesn't work.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Mary Beth said:


> "*I also feel if I make a mistake with PR-based training, it can usually be pretty easily fixed, but if I make a mistake with compulsion-based training, the new adopter may have a hard time reversing it .... our club members use e-collars, but these are OUR dogs, if we make a mistake, we live with the consequences..." *
> 
> This is an excerpt from San's post #94 on the Forum: Training Theory: shelters/rescues against correction. For this thread just think prong collar for e-collar. I have quoted it here because it is very pertinent to this thread. If compulsion training is used on Knuckles (the prong collar) and a mistake is make, then as Jakes Mom and Chicagocanine have pointed out - it is going to take a lot of energy, time, and work (and I may add expense in trainer's fees and travel ) to reverse the damage that was done. Before it's too late, try the harness - 30 day money back guarantee if it doesn't work.


Mary Beth - good post 

Be aware though that the harness itself won't be enough - Berleen also needs to ensure she keeps her distance (please see post #97). It appears that the OP's dog is fearful. Fear needs to be handled differently to over enthusiasm. 

This is what we did with Jake, our current dog who we had from the rescue last year. 

Jake was fear agressive. On leash he would try and attack at about twenty feet, and given the choice he would go out his way to avoid other dogs 200-300 yards away. 

When we first had him at age 5yrs. he didn't walk well on a leash, so the first thing I did was to teach him how to walk on a loose leash. Once he could walk well on a loose leash we took him to our local common. We had clear views, and plenty of dogs around. I started off about 400-500 yards away from any other dog. 

I kept his leash loose, and followed as he walked wherever he wanted to. It was obvious that he wasn't comfortable with other dogs, because he would look for them, but then go out of his way to avoid them. He would sometimes approach within a certain distance and then turn away from them. If ever one got close he would lunge aggressively. 

I started giving Jake treats each time he saw another dog - we did that until we reached the stage that whenever he saw a dog he started to look at me for a treat. 

I then stopped giving him treats simply for looking at another dog, and started tossing a treat on the ground away from him, when he went to get it he had to stop looking at the other dog, and the second he did I'd tell him how good he was. 

I then started only giving him a treat and praising him once he had stopped looking at other dogs on his own accord, and did something else instead, such as turning away from them or sniffing the ground. 

More or less we left it to him to decide how close he wanted to go. 
He slowly started getting closer and closer. First of all he started to follow other dogs. Then he'd walk parallel in the same direction, then he progressed to walking towards a dog in a wide arc provided the other dog was sitting or standing still, and finally he let them approach reasonably close from the side (10-15 feet). 

We also had bad days when we couldn't avoid dogs - he would then lunge aggressively, and we had to wait until he calmed down before we praised him. But these occasions got less and less. 

Once we got the distance down to where he was comfortable and didn't react to other dogs, except when fairly close up, that final step was difficult. The first time he approached another dog - a labrador who was sitting calmly side on to him - he approached confidently and then last second panicked and lunged at him. I suppose if I'm honest I probably panicked as well and tightened the leash. In fact it was probably my fault - it's hard when you're a chicken like me. 

The same if he was walking behind another dog. He would close the gap and sniff their butt, but the second they turned their head slighty - he lunged aggressively - or I tightened the leash - not sure which.

It was at this stage we took him to a trainer for a one to one lesson. The trainer brought his calm non- reactive dog with him, and we walked around a field in parallel, slowly getting closer. Jake pulled towards his dog a few times but nothing major. 

The trainer then tied his dog to a tree, and took charge of Jake. He held him on a very loose 6 foot leash about 30 to 40 feet from his own dog. He approached with Jake and watched him carefully - the second he noticed any sign of stress he turned Jake away from his dog and walked back to where he started from. He kept repeating this for about 10-15 minutes, and each time Jake remained calm for longer, until eventually he was next to his dog, and his dog lifted his paw up to Jake. I was amazed. 

I then look charge of Jake and I admit I was nervous and tightened his leash (I was quite rightly told off for that). So I managed to keep calm and do the same. By the time the hour was up Jake and the trainer's dog were playing. I could have cried. It was lovely. 

At first the trainer wanted us to put a muzzle on Jake, for his own dog's safety, but we didn't have one with us, and as Jake was wearing his halter, he decided to give it a reasonable go anyway. The trainer was really good, not once did he correct Jake, he just kept turning him away from his own dog, until he could tell Jake was comfortable. I was really impressed. 

After that we went on social walks, arranged by the trainer. We just lagged behind the other dogs to start with, but over the next few weeks slowly closed the gap until Jake walked happily with them. 

Jake now walks happily on a very loose leash, doesn't react to dogs and would play if we let him. If loose friendly dogs approach he's fine with them. Luckily in the UK loose aggressive dogs are very rare.

I appreciate I've made that sound very simple - but we are lucky in having a good place to work, and plenty of learnt lessons from our previous dog Sammy. 

Don't get me wrong we still always observe the body language of approaching dogs, and we make sure we move him away, by walking in a wide arc or crossing the road or turning round and walking in the opposite direction, if we are in the least bit unsure. 
__________
Sue


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I appreciate Jake's Mom clear explanation of the training and time it takes when the dog is fearful. And how all their hard work and patience it took to turn Jake from a fearful dog into a confident well socialized GSD. Jake is one lucky dog. Oh how well I know the harness isn't enough which is why I chose one that came with the training videos that can be downloaded to a computer. But what I find it does do is to take the pressure off of me to give corrections (did I do it right - did I over correct or not enough, and so on) and instead concentrate on curving -turning - rewarding - keeping my dog's focus who thanks be is not fearful.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't need to argue the same point again. What worked for your dog may work for OP and what worked for my dog may work for OP. In the end, you need to do whatever works.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Mary Beth said:


> Oh how well I know the harness isn't enough which is why I chose one that came with the training videos that can be downloaded to a computer. But what I find it does do is to take the pressure off of me to give corrections (did I do it right - did I over correct or not enough, and so on) and instead concentrate on curving -turning - rewarding - keeping my dog's focus who thanks be is not fearful.


Those videos sound interesting. I did look at the one - but unfortunately I don't have any sound on my computer - so I had no idea what she was on about.

Berleen

Good Luck with whatever you do. Let us know how you get on. 
________
Sue


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> And it would probably be better with a dog that is *already showing signs of aggression* *towards other dogs* to keep a distance or *not use a prong* at all, ...


What collar would be best for a dog that is already showing signs of aggression toward other dogs?


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I don't need to argue the same point again. What worked for your dog may work for OP and what worked for my dog may work for OP. In the end, you need to do whatever works.


Thank you. 

Right now I'm working with the prong & stressing more on the "leave it". We haven't had much practice with it, but with what we've had - WOW! The only thing I don't like is that Knuckles is able to pull my dad on it. My dad doesn't have as much control over him as he does with the gentle leader. But we can keep working on that, too. It's not like my dad has to be in control of him, but we visit him daily so it would be nice. 

I do appreciate everyone's comments, suggestions & help - especially since the trainer I have is pretty much worthless. I have also come to the conclusion that my Knucklehead isn't as bad as I thought he was and he's not nearly as bad as he's been drawn up in this thread  I have a good boy who has some issues with certain dogs and we'll get those worked through. Ok.. and the wheels. Lets get over that obsession with wheels. 

If the prong doesn't get him to where I want him to be, which honestly isn't far, then I'll chalk that off my list and try the next training tool. Heck maybe once he gets out of his teenage stage (he's 9 months after all) maybe he'll fix all his behaviors himself. :wild:


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Jake's Mom Sue- The trainer Alicia Evans talks about a 3 step process: begin walking then Step. 1: Stop (she mentions standing " like a tree"- not moving) Step 2: allow the dog to back up Step 3: when the dog backs up - praise and reward. For example, today when out walking my dog, suddenly a dog dashed out of his yard coming straight at me and my dog. I stopped- my dog stopped - the second he backed up - I turned saying the lets get out of here now command - he followed - I praised and rewarded. The dog's owner came out and called the dog.

Kittlicious - Berleen. Have you thought about having Knuckles wear the head halter when you visit your father so Knuckles can't pull him.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> What collar would be best for a dog that is already showing signs of aggression toward other dogs?


I'd think I'd go with the harness and videos that Mary Beth is talking about - a 30 day money back trial - got to worth a try.
_________
Sue


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> Kittlicious - Berleen. Have you thought about having Knuckles wear the head halter when you visit your father so Knuckles can't pull him.


Of course


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Just an update - yesterday we walked by Sam, the Golden that Knuckles REALLY goes off on, and we barely had any reaction at all. Each day was getting a bit less and less and yesterday he didn't even pull, just whined a bit. All I had on him was the prong. 
His attitude even seems to have changed... he doesn't seem to watch for things much anymore... like watching Sam's house, he just keeps walking with his head high. I think he's paying more attention to birds and squirrels  He's got a bit of cockiness now, kind of like "ha! I'm on a walk and you aren't" type strut. 

Oh, and speaking of. We had a baby robin in our yard the other day that hopped out of my flower bed in front of us. Knuckles was off leash. The bird hopped over to my other flower bed that is next to the tree and Knuckles went for it. I said a stern, not even yelling, "leave it" and he turned around like it wasn't even there. Then he sat down and watched it's couple attempts at flying back up into the tree.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I was wondering how you and Knuckles were getting along. I sure wish all OPs were like you. It was great to receive your update. I am happy all is going well. It seems to be "practice makes perfect". I give you credit for persisting with the training by walking where the other dogs are and am happy you are seeing the results of your hard work.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> I was wondering how you and Knuckles were getting along. I sure wish all OPs were like you. It was great to receive your update. I am happy all is going well. It seems to be "practice makes perfect". I give you credit for persisting with the training by walking where the other dogs are and am happy you are seeing the results of your hard work.


It's kind of hard not to... it's on the path to my dad's house who I visit daily. I only live a block away from him so it's silly to drive there


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Nice to hear things are going well for you and Knuckles. I still think it's sad you just didn't try the 'leave it' with the head collar before using the prong - but if you're getting on ok - great. 

I couldn't help but notice on your latest photos of Knuckles that he was wearing some sort of shock collar - what do you use that for ?
_________
Sue


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Nice to hear things are going well for you and Knuckles.* I still think it's sad you just didn't try the 'leave it' with the head collar before using the prong* - but if you're getting on ok - great.
> 
> Sue


She did try it and it didn't work. There's no need to take a below the belt shot at her for using a prong collar. There is absolutely nothing to feel ashamed of by using it.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Nice to hear things are going well for you and Knuckles. I still think it's sad you just didn't try the 'leave it' with the head collar before using the prong - but if you're getting on ok - great.
> 
> I couldn't help but notice on your latest photos of Knuckles that he was wearing some sort of shock collar - what do you use that for ?
> _________
> Sue


Hand held invisible fencing while we are at the lake until he learns the boundries. I only use the tone function though, I don't have to use the shock.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> She did try it and it didn't work. There's no need to take a below the belt shot at her for using a prong collar. There is absolutely nothing to feel ashamed of by using it.


I have not commented in this thread but agree. With training it's not a one size fits all. There are tools that I use that my neighbor w/ her lab would not use and vise versa, no biggie.

Kittilicious, I'm happy to hear Knuckles is doing better with your training adjustments


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> She did try it and it didn't work. There's no need to take a below the belt shot at her for using a prong collar. There is absolutely nothing to feel ashamed of by using it.


Thank you, GatorDog


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Courtney said:


> I have not commented in this thread but agree. With training it's not a one size fits all. There are tools that I use that my neighbor w/ her lab would not use and vise versa, no biggie.
> 
> Kittilicious, I'm happy to hear Knuckles is doing better with your training adjustments


It is trial & error for sure. It's a lot of what Knuckles is comfortable with, thats how I'm looking at it. Yes, he did great on the head collar as far as walking, but after it was mentioned in this thread about neck injury, I noticed more how he would twist his neck with it on. He reluctantly put it on each time, but with the prong he comes right to me and stands there while I put it on. He doesn't scratch at it or nothing like he did the halter. It's just another collar to him that he realized quickly what he can do to make it comfortable. He is also reacting to "leave it" much better on the prong vs the halter.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> Nice to hear things are going well for you and Knuckles. I still think it's sad you just didn't try the 'leave it' with the head collar before using the prong - but if you're getting on ok - great.
> 
> _________
> Sue





GatorDog said:


> She did try it and it didn't work. *There's no need to take a below the belt shot at her for using a prong collar. There is absolutely nothing to feel ashamed of by using it.*





Kittilicious said:


> Thank you, GatorDog


 
*Pardon!!!!!*

It was not a below the belt shot. It was Kittilicious who was in love with the Gentle Leader Head Collar.

I merely made an observation based on Kittilicous's posts, that she never got around to trying the 'leave it' with the head collar . (See Below) 

And I repeat - I'm glad things are working our for you Berleen. 




Kittilicious said:


> The reason our trainer suggested the gentle leader was because of him lunging. He can't lunge like he wants now and doesn't at all on walks if another dog isn't around. He walks beautifully, actually :wub: *I'm honestly in love with the gentle leader*, it has made walks so much more enjoyable & my 77 year old dad can now hold Knuckles for me if I need him to.
> 
> *I'll look into getting a prong, I'm not a big fan of them* but I gotta keep trying. It's the only thing that has been suggested that we haven't done.
> Has anyone used a prong for a situation like mine and then not had to use it later on down the line? I really want to correct the behavior, not just manage it.





Kittilicious said:


> *I've read too many places that using it inncorrectly does more harm than good and yes, I don't like the hurting aspect of it. *





Kittilicious said:


> *Wait.. what? Dogs killed? And if I wasn't scared of using a prong collar* before?


*Posted 05/24/12 *


jakes mom said:


> Hi Berleen
> 
> I was just wondering if you've been working on the 'leave it' and getting Knuckles to release a tug on command.
> 
> ...


*Posted 5/25/12 *


Kittilicious said:


> I haven't had the chance yet. I've used the crappy weather & non-busy times to work on his "Stay" which he seemed to somehow erase from his memory over the past few weeks. Yep, welcome to the teenage phase! Yaaa me.
> 
> And GatorDog is right (and those who else said it), I am 95% sure it's not aggression he is showing, so I'm hoping that the prong or Sue's "leave it" idea works.


*Posted 5/26/12*


Kittilicious said:


> 5. *Got the prong collar today and decided to try it.* Walked by Sam (the Golden), barked like normal. I said "leave it" with a small snap of the collar and he just kept walking. Yep, I got excited and he got a bunch of "good boy"'s! Then a few blocks down there is a yellow lab that HATES dogs, but we rarely walk this way, but we did. Lab was barking like crazy and jumping on the kennels walls towards Knuckles. Looking at Knuckles you would swear there was no Lab barking at him.  He just kept walking and oh boy you bet did I do a lot of GOOD BOY!
> But then on the way back we passed a little dog in a yard that was tied out. K was whining/barking a bit and then settled (after a leave it & snap of the collar). I put him in a sit but wouldn't you know, the dogs owner came out and brought the dog in *sigh*





jakes mom said:


> Berleen
> 
> Good Luck with whatever you do. Let us know how you get on.
> ________
> Sue


___________
Sue


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Well excuse me Sue, but I didn't realize that you were the end all, be all of recommendations to training collars.

You can quote as many posts as you'd like, but just because OP was turned off by prong collars before she actually tried one does not mean that she needs to feel sorry for choosing to use one after she learned the proper training methods associated with it. 

And once again, nothing to feel sorry about. It worked for her dog and many others, and it doesn't work for some. That's why there are so many training tools available. Not ever gentle leader is going to work for every dog.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

To be honest, I have to admit I was disappointed too. I get the same results by using the harness that she is getting with the prong collar and I don't have to worry about mistiming a correction and risk having my dog associate the correction with the other dog. I am lucky that my dog is not fear aggressive and I want to keep him that way. But if he had been and I had gone through the year of difficult retraining that both ChicagoCanine and Jake's Mom Sue did with their dogs, my posts on this thread would not have been nearly as tactful as theirs. That being said, I thought it was interesting about Knuckles reaction to the head halter, shaking his head, not wanting it on. I had only tried the head halter with my Dobe, who simply turned her head but kept pulling and she didn't mind it being put on. Knuckles reaction, where he acts upset with it, and was barking and acting up when he saw other dogs, is what I had been reading about where it can make leash reactivity worse because the dog can't use his head to give signals to other dogs. I wonder if part of Knuckles good behavior is not the prong collar but no head halter and if the same result (with teaching the leave it command as she is doing) could have been achieved with a different type of collar or the harness.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

It maybe could have, we will never know I guess. My goal is to eventually go back to just a flat collar - that is my ultimate goal. Laugh at me if you want, but I think I can get him there. 

We had a step back last night, but yet we didn't. As we were walking up the street to our house and he was doing GREAT with ignoring dogs, he spotted a strange dog *in our yard* who stopped to pee on the telephone pole in our yard. Even saying "leave it" wasn't really working, he was vocally upset, so I just kept walking, got into our yard (he could still see the dog walking down the street away from our yard) and I put him in a sit and we worked on his stay. Took him a bit to get the other dog out of his mind, but we finally did. I'm sure I did things wrong, but I sort of gave Knuckles an out on this one because the dog was in HIS yard and he wasn't there yet.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Now that is very understandable. Everyone (dogs included) has their limits. He didn't bolt after the dog and he did respond to your commands. Working on the sit/stay and down/stay was great. If you were able to reward with treats and get his focus that way it helps. When Sting is fixated on another dog (like Knuckles was in this situtation) I put him on the sit/stay - stand right in front of him - hold the treat - say focus - when he looks/sniffs that's when I turn him and give him the treat. The head-on encounters are the most challenging. Turn a corner and there's a dog or one comes charging out to defend his territory (the ambush approach). That's what I like about the harness - because with the walking method - basically Sting is by my side - when I stop -and he forges ahead -it puts pressure on his chest - so he stops and turns toward me -I can quickly turn the second he does and walk away from the other dog - praising Sting and rewarding him. If you didn't do so, it also helps to let Knuckles sniff the other dog's "calling card" as my grandma used to say and even leave his to mark his territory. Also - when you spot a dog ahead that is loose or even being walked on a leash - turn right away and go in a different direction because you don't know what the other dog will do. Knuckles would be behaving like a gentleman and the other dog could lunge at him.


----------

