# i don't know what more i can do



## bethk1002 (Jan 25, 2009)

hi- sorry this is kinda long.......

i've been reading this website for months- and finally got the courage up to post.
i have an 18 month old gsd. i've had her since she was 8 weeks old, her litter was born at the local gsd rescue. she's not my first dog, i think my 5th. she is my first purebred and thus my first gsd.
i have one older dog a german shepard mix who is 10. and 1 cat.
she loves people, and i've been told the most playful gsd people have ever seen. i started socializing her right away, and we went to puppy classes, as well as intermediate. i think part of her problem stems from the fact that she is so playful. on hikes she would try and play with everydog. sadly, she was attacked quite a few times, by dogs who either had no patience for a pup or weren't friendly. she then became aggressive on leash- lunging,snapping and barking at every dog that walked by. so...i hired a dog trainer that specialized in aggression. it worked for awhile, but her method of just ripping her head off with a choke chain didn't build up her confidence.
then i began to notice that more and more she is on edge when we're on a walk. always looking, never enjoys the walk. her behaviour also seemed more intense at home. always parolling the house, and barking at anything that moves. she's very protective, of me, my older dog, the house the car..you name it. 
so...that brings me to now.. i found a licensed and published animal behaviourist that we've been working with. slowly but surely i've been reconditioning her with food to ignore other dogs on walks. it seems to be working, no lunging/barking etc. she's still hyper alert. the dr. suggested putting her on medication to 'take the edge off' 
she gets about 3 hours of exercise a day..walks and plays at the park(off leash) with other dogs. but when i take her on hikes off leash, she will charge other dogs with hackles up and barking??????
she's very well trained, and i continue to work with her daily. 
i just want her to RELAX! am i missing something? HELP PLEASE


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Welcome to the board, and thank you for rescuing! It sounds like you are doing everything right EXCEPT for letting your dog off leash in an area where she can encounter other dogs. Please do not let her off leash in an uncontrolled environment! If you want to let her have some more freedom, get a 15' long line. She'll have more room to explore and you'll have a means to control her. Every time she's allowed to rush other dogs makes it that much more difficult to resolve her issues. I would also stop taking her to dog parks. If she gets attacked by another dog, all your efforts will be fruitless and you may never rehab her. Your behaviorist may be able to assist you with planning controlled playtime with other dogs of sound temperament but you should not leave this to chance.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

It sounds like your dog started off with enthusiasm but poor social skills and through bad experiences has developed a conditioned fear response to other dogs - first by dogs attacking her and then by getting punished by the trainer. I don't think she needs meds - her response of hyper vigilance is entirely understandable given her experiences. That's not a neurological problem, it's a problem of conditioning. You're on the right track now with the re-conditioning but you need to protect your dog from situations where she could be hurt or scared. No offleash parks and definitely no hiking off leash. Right now the world is a really scary place for her but if you continue with your de-conditioning work and carefully control her environment, in time she'll learn that she can relax because you will protect her. 

Welcome to the board!


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Don't let her off lead, Don't drug her, that could make it worse and you said very well trained, that is relative. can you call her back when she is charging? 

My Erika is dog aggressive, we trained to that by working on obedience and redirection and with the help of other people and their dogs. the other dog who is calm is a ways off and I would work Erika in obedience and tasks and eventualy we would get closer and closer together. takes time and repeatition. still, Erika really isn't interested in socializing with other dogs and give the attitude she gets


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## bethk1002 (Jan 25, 2009)

thank you all! i guess i was expecting too much too soon. and you're all right, she needs to be on leash in a controlled enviorment.

ugh..it's such a slow road!

thanks again


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: keeleys momso...i hired a dog trainer that specialized in aggression. it worked for awhile, but her method of just ripping her head off with a choke chain didn't build up her confidence.


 Ugh, that is exactly the wrong approach. I'm sorry, but you ended up with a very bad trainer - not your fault, you didn't know, but your trainer almost certainly made the situation worse. It sounds like you're on the right track now, but it can take a long time, so keep it up and be patient. 

Charging other dogs with her hackles up and barking is fear reactivity - she's learned that the best defense is a good offense so she's putting on a good show to scare away any other dog that might be considering attacking her.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: keeleys momugh..it's such a slow road!


I hear ya. It does take a long time. I've been working with my fear reactive dog for over a year. I've had the best luck recently giving her treats when we see other dogs. We've only been doing the treat thing for 2-3 months but I've already seen amazing improvement. 

I'm sure you'll find a lot of people on this board who've been in your shoes and will be willing to help you out. Best of luck to you and welcome to the board.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-Elperroguapo
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: keeleys momugh..it's such a slow road!
> ...


and is an excellent reason to avoid dog parks or at least dog parks where anybody can put their little Napoleon or rank monster in the mix and wreck months of training


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Did the trainer you hired use a choke chain or a pronged collar. I am curious because most trainers no longer advocate the use of a choke collar. Simply stated there have been studies that show a choke collar can do permanenent damage to a dog.

A pronged collar might help, but never while using it jerk on it to make the dog yelp. Simply fix it high and tight while walking your dog. If the dog goes after someone or another pet, let the dog hurt itself.

Eventually your dog will figure out this is not a good thing. Ditto for commands like sit and down, when others approach. 

Just a thought and perhaps a bit off base. However, I do rescue and it has worked well with the so-cllaed hard to control dogs.

As for dog parks, avoid, avoid and avoid.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Aversive training tools don't work well with fearful dogs. Trust me. I wish I weren't speaking from experience here. . .but I am. It just makes it worse. Your dog is already afraid of other dogs. By adding punishment to the mix, you're just increasing that fear.

If you're worried about control, I have found the Easy-Walk harness to be a great tool in rehabilitating my fearful dog. I have control over her body mass with it and I don't have to worry about her hurting herself if she lunges with it on.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Aversive training tools don't work well with fearful dogs. Trust me. I wish I weren't speaking from experience here. . .but I am. It just makes it worse. Your dog is already afraid of other dogs. By adding punishment to the mix, you're just increasing that fear.


Yup. In their minds, they think, "Oh great, every time I see another dog I get jerked- YIPE- see, just like that! Man, I really hate other dogs and I wish they would go away! I have to scare them off or else I'll keep getting punished!"


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## bethk1002 (Jan 25, 2009)

the aggression specialist used a choke chain. the behaviourist we are currently using has me using two leashes- one attached to a gentle leader and the second to a prong collar. I also always am armed with training/distraction treats. 
plus also along for the ride is my very calm 10yr shepard mix. it's amazing i haven't waivered in my determination to raise a happy well adjusted dog! she's gonna relax on leash and have fun if it kills me! 
she does have her puppy friends that she loves, and she loves my older dog and people. she'll make out with anyone.
it feels like a full time job. sometimes i wish i was one of those people who could bury their head in the sand and act like her behaviour was completly acceptable as it is. 
i'll never be that person. good bad or indiffrent.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Has anyone mentioned Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt? I think it would be a great reference for you! Here is the link to her site:

http://www.controlunleashed.net/book.html

Here is another link that has a ton of good books dogwise.com:

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB943


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You know what? The FIRST issue is diagnosis. This may be a fearful dog, a dog-aggressive dog, or simply an overexuberant dog throwing a tantrum due to barrier frustration when on-lead, and having horrific overexcited party manners when offlead with other dogs.
The REASON for the behavior would then determine what route to take.

Example: My own dog hackled, barked, and lunged at other dogs on-lead all the time. Fearful? Not at all. Aggressive? Not! He would rip the lead from my hands, race over and play-bow franticly, barking to demand the other dog play with him. The hackles were from anticipation/tension-- some males even do this before mating, and my own dog hackles with a totally relaxed body when we greet each morning after waking.

A very firm correction can be the answer for dogs who do this simply out of overexcited impatience-- never for fearful dogs.

Toy/tuggy play for looking at the handler can work wonders-- but be careful, some dogs get ramped up further by a game of tuggy... my dog relaxes happily with this.

Food can help change the focus back to the handler. But again, careful here too-- fearful dogs may work well with food, but very dominant dogs can get pushier, irritates, demanding with the use of food reward, and defend their 2-legged foodbowl against other dogs on walks.

The route you and the behaviorist will take, I hope will be wonderfully successful for your dog. I hope the behaviorist has an accurate diagnosis. Things will take time, but the results will be improvement.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfYou know what? The FIRST issue is diagnosis. This may be a fearful dog, a dog-aggressive dog, or simply an overexuberant dog throwing a tantrum due to barrier frustration when on-lead, and having horrific overexcited party manners when offlead with other dogs.
> The REASON for the behavior would then determine what route to take.
> 
> Example: My own dog hackled, barked, and lunged at other dogs on-lead all the time. Fearful? Not at all. Aggressive? Not! He would rip the lead from my hands, race over and play-bow franticly, barking to demand the other dog play with him. The hackles were from anticipation/tension-- some males even do this before mating, and my own dog hackles with a totally relaxed body when we greet each morning after waking.
> ...


Good point Patty. Arousal can be interpreted many different ways, and unfortunately incorrectly. For the OP I think it would be worth getting multiple recommendations from different sources. Maybe try a trainer in addition to the behaviorist, possibly one who specializes in aggression. Sometimes even professionals get it wrong, that's why people get second opinions from doctors as well!

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with getting a solid diagnosis but in this dog whispering day and age, everyone seems to believe that dogs are making bids for dominance - and few people seem to understand a proactive fear response, so one should be careful about the "experts" selected. 

Based on the OPs first post - that the dog used to love socializing with other dogs, but after being attacked several times she has become reactive, my money's on fear aggression. Like Cassidy'sMom said - she now thinks the best defense is a good offense. This is a common reaction in dogs. I also agree with those that have said further negative conditioning is not the way to go here. You're just reinforcing in your dog's mine that other dogs mean bad times. A better approach is to determine her comfort distance (the closest you can be to another dog before she goes into her reactive mode) and then work with her doing fun obedience with lots of praise and rewards right in that zone. Gradually decrease the distance you can be from other dogs before she reacts. Another technique I like, if you can find a helper, is "parallel walks", where you walk her and they walk another (non-reactive) dog in parallel, usually across the street. You both walk briskly along and you refocus your dog on you, on the things going on on your walk, so that she knows the other dog is there but it's not paying any attention to her, not posing any threat at all, and her tension will diminish as you move along.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Scary:

A photo of a growling, snarling dog at the end of a lead was shown to a group of people who read a dog magazine. The subscribers had to weigh in on what the problem was. The only info "She barks when she sees other dogs."

A percentage were certain this was fearful: "This dog needed more dog socialization, she's scared! Use positive methods only-- and food rewards/clicker!"

Another percentage were sure this dog was defending/aggressive: "This is a dog who's defending you like a resource.. be firm! Don't allow that! Good hard corrections, and NILIF at home!"

Diagnosis is important... and getting more than one behaviorist's imput is critical.

My mistake: I kept my own counsel, assuming my dog was "aggressive" because he was a GSD (talk about being prejudiced!) and because I myself was frightened when he fired up at other dogs. (my vulnerability made me assume he was aggressive). It took THREE evals by THREE different professionals to point out to me, that I have a dog-friendly dog.. who is simply horribly impatient to get to the other dog to initiate play, so the barrier frustration issue comes into play.

No wonder fear-reactivity techniques didn't work.

No wonder other dogs weren't afraid of him.

No wonder the few times he ripped the lead away, nobody got hurt, just play-bowing and barking.

Still.. it took me hearing from three professionals before I would understand what was happening to build a training/management gameplan. Intensity doesn't always mean aggression, hackles don't always mean fear. Get as many evals as you can!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I would HIGHLY recommend reading the following books. They have helped me immensely in working with my reactive dog. 

<u>Scaredy Dog</u> by Ali Brown
<u>Focus, Not Fear</u> by Ali Brown
<u>Cautious Canine</u> by Patricia McConnell
<u>Feisty Fido</u> by Patricia McConnell
<u>Control Unleashed</u> by Leslie McDevitt
<u>FIGHT!</u> by Jean Donaldson

I just read <u>FIGHT!</u> this weekend and it goes over the different types of reactivity. From dogs who are just too excited to meet other dogs (like Grimm) to dogs who are afraid of other dogs (like Risa). <u>Scaredy Dog</u> was my 'lightbulb' book when I really realized what I had to deal with and what I needed to do. <u>Focus, Not Fear</u> chronicles a reactive dog class and gives good insight on how to work with fearful dogs. And I can't say enough good things about <u>Control Unleashed</u> either.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

GREAT reccomendations, Jamie!! The Control Unleashed is phenomenal. Her methods make so much sense, relax the dog, but they actually do mainly need to be done in a controlled, class environment more than just on walks. It doesn't even need to be an official "Control Unleashes class"-- it can be a training class where the instructor has good, sane, sensible control over all the applicants.

Feisty Fido is EXCELLENT-- even people with overexcited dogs can use these techniques!

"Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons is another good one. She wrote the book due to having a fear aggressive Golden.

Jamie, I can just see Grimm and Risa meeting.
Grimm: "Ohmigod Ohmigod, a cool new dog!! I gotsta PLAY wiff her!! RIGHT NOW!!!!" 
vs. 
Risa: "Ohhhmigod Mom, Ohhhmigod Mom-- The Tazmanian Devil is winding this way!!"








Actually, this is eerie: Grimm actively ignores dogs that anxiously slink, worriedly crouch, look upward anxiously, hide behind owners, seem scared/overwhelmed by other dogs. If they move, he won't even run with them, until they look at him to meet.


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## nysirk (Apr 15, 2008)

ME too!!! Barrier frustration...... to the OP you have been given great advice I highly agree, Best of all your NOT ALONE,
Love all the book recommendations Ive read/reading all of those books too expect for Ail Brown I saw them before on amazon, but had never heard of her so never read them so def going to check those out, thanks for the rec.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jamie, is FIGHT! by Jean Donaldson applicable to overexcited Grimm-types, or just aggressive and fearful types? Should I check that out for Grimm and I?


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Patti, the whole first section in <u>Fight!</u> is about Grimm dogs.







I read the first part when she was talking about the different types of dogs and I thought to myself "1. Grimm. 2. Risa. 3. Risa. . ."

So yes, I think it would be a good book for you and Herr Grimmeister.


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