# Is temperament genetic ?



## Palmist (Nov 24, 2011)

I am looking for my ideal dog and have been reading things about both mum and dad of good temperament etc. Is behaviour something genetic ?

I always thought how a pup/baby is brought up is of more significance than what Mom and Dad used to do. 

Let's say Sire is an aggressive guard dog, Dame is may be a rescue dog. Can Breeders predict the temperament of pups ? Surely this should be down to how the pups are brought up.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

To a large extent, yes temperament is genetic. Whether a dog is fearful, aggressive, reactive, high-energy or low-energy comes down in large part to genetics. Training and raising can help you manage what you've got, but the basic blueprint comes from mom and dad. 

If you have a fearful, shy dog your dog will always be shy and fearful to an extent. You can socialize him and get him used to certain things, but in new situations his first reaction will always be fearful and shy.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

The way I like to look at it is that genetics is the foundation upon which any training will be built. You can build the nicest mansion in the world, but if you build it on swampy ground, it is going to crumble when the wind blows hard enough or when the earth shifts beneath it...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

br870, exactly.


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## Palmist (Nov 24, 2011)

BR870 said:


> The way I like to look at it is that genetics is the foundation upon which any training will be built. You can build the nicest mansion in the world, but if you build it on swampy ground, it is going to crumble when the wind blows hard enough or when the earth shifts beneath it...


Interesting analogy. However in the case of building a mansion most of the factors can be measured and controllable. Whereas when in comes to temperament, its not something we can measure [?] I would imagine a dam or sire with serious psychological/mental issues could transfer the same to its litter and it would be irresponsible to breed in first place. But just because a Dame or Sire has been used in police work or somewhere else where they had to be aggressive, shouldn't mean the next generation will be the same, should it ?

I am no expert in breeding at all, just bouncing back some thoughts.

cheers


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## Palmist (Nov 24, 2011)

May be I am getting confused between behaviour and temperament.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Palmist said:


> But just because a Dame or Sire has been used in police work or somewhere else where they had to be aggressive, shouldn't mean the next generation will be the same, should it ?


Possibly. Each dog has their own natural level of aggression (how aggressive they will get if proved) as well as their own threshold (how much provoking it takes to make them act aggressively). This is innate and genetic. What they _do_ with their aggression comes down to training.

Often dogs used in police or personal protection work (not the same thing as sport) have higher natural levels of aggression and lower trigger thresholds. That kind of work is a good "outlet" for their natural tendencies and dogs like that are a great fit for that type of work. However, the same dog in a family home could be a disaster. 

A dog with low levels of aggression and higher thresholds could be a disaster as a protection or police dog, but great for a family with lots of visitors and kids running in and out.


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## Palmist (Nov 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Possibly. Each dog has their own natural level of aggression (how aggressive they will get if proved) as well as their own threshold (how much provoking it takes to make them act aggressively). This is innate and genetic. What they _do_ with their aggression comes down to training.


Very informative. I might be expecting too much from my dog but please bare with me and suggest what sort of background I should look for, more importantly what to AVOID.

I live alone with the possibility of GF moving in.
No Kids
Neighbours have cats and smaller dogs.
Very few visitors
Don't want dog to be aggressive or intimidating but wouldn't want it to wag its tail while I am being mugged either. I live in a fairly decent locality. 

Let me add, given the choice between family dog and protection dog, I would go for family dog.

My Golden Retriever was the gentlest dog ever but he would always come to my rescue every time we staged an attack [we were only young]. Now whether he just wanted to be part of the fun or he really thought I was in danger, I don't know.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Temperament is THE genetic part of how a dog behaves.

The whole dog is the addition of genetics + environment, in this case temperament + raising, training and experiences.

If you want to learn more, and specially if you are about to get a new pup, I highly recommend this article:

Elem. of Temperament


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Have you read this sticky yet:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

BR870 said:


> The way I like to look at it is that genetics is the foundation upon which any training will be built. You can build the nicest mansion in the world, but if you build it on swampy ground, it is going to crumble when the wind blows hard enough or when the earth shifts beneath it...


I just wanted to point out here that there is a certain irony in a person from Louisiana (me) lecturing to anyone about not building on swampy ground... :laugh:


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## Palmist (Nov 24, 2011)

Catu said:


> Temperament is THE genetic part of how a dog behaves.
> 
> The whole dog is the addition of genetics + environment, in this case temperament + raising, training and experiences.
> 
> ...


"It's all in how they're raised!" . . . No, it's not. It's all in how their DNA came together.

Thanks, I have got some good material to read now during my lunch break tomorrow.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go to a breeder that is ethical and has a track record for producing what you are looking for. There are many on this forum that can offer you a stable healthy dog for years of happy memories , whether it comes from working lines , show- american or german -- .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> go to a breeder that is ethical and has a track record for producing what you are looking for. There are many on this forum that can offer you a stable healthy dog for years of happy memories , whether it comes from working lines , show- american or german -- .


Carmen, do you know of any breeders fitting that description in England?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes , there was Dave Wooles who used to be in Sussex. There is another person that I can think of top of my head but would have to suss out her contact information.

There is always the German Shepherd League of Great Britain that could point the person in the right direction. I was a member for years , previously the Alsation League. Their year books were very good. 

let me do the research.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nyrvana German Shepherd Dogs

Magaret Nyrvana-Jones who some people may remember from (gsd-euro). That champdogs.co.uk site has a full list of breeders .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

find a reputable breeder and trainer. train,
socialize and you probably won't have
any problems and you'll have the type of 
you want.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can have the best breeder, the best pups, the best food,
the best area to live in with a pup, the best knowledge,
the best of best with all things dog but if you don't
do your part you're going to have the best of nothing.



Palmist said:


> "It's all in how they're raised!" . . . No, it's not. It's all in how their DNA came together.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

true, but even the best tailor can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
If you don't have the "good" basics it can be a tearful unrewarding difficult experience. A "best" breeder is there with genuine interest and support . The "best" food can allow the dog to develop to his best potential , possibly adding years of healthy life and reducing vet bills to minimal expense . 
Select well .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you missed where i said reputable breeder and trainer.



carmspack said:


> true, but even the best tailor can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
> If you don't have the "good" basics it can be a tearful unrewarding difficult experience. A "best" breeder is there with genuine interest and support . The "best" food can allow the dog to develop to his best potential , possibly adding years of healthy life and reducing vet bills to minimal expense .
> Select well .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I think it's pretty complex and it's a difficult thing to peg down.

On one hand genetics may allow for a certain "range" of drive, fearfulness, aggression, etc, so on and so forth (where the dog falls in those ranges depends on the owner and how the dog is trained).

But, I also think that there's perhaps a certain level of codified instinctual response vs trained response/obedience - in other words, a certain genetic "degree" to which a dog's obedience/training can overrule a more "natural" response in one of those ranges mentioned earlier, if that makes any sense.

For instance some dogs may be hardwired to be incredibly fearful. But, the level of obedience which can override that hardwired response is pretty high, so the dog can be trained to act in a way that most people might never even realize the dog was fearful, or that the dog wouldn't act that way in most situations, perhaps.

In general I'd say genetics set a certain "range" that the dog will fall into (nature) but the training (nurture) will set where the dog specifically falls. And there is, perhaps, another component that might make all of that a wash (instinctual response vs training). I've seen dogs which I would have sworn up and down were horribly fearful by genetics, and would always have that trait carried with them to some degree, turn into a dog that is just fine in public and crowds and meeting strangers, etc. You'd have never known that said dog had terrible fear aggression.


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