# Would it be stupid to not get my GSD titled



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Hey guys....I've been thinking....My male GSD is only 13 weeks old. My goal is personal protection trained and family member. My sons are 1 1/2 and 4 1/2 years old. I know it's a long process to train one for personal protection....Would it be stupid to put all this dedication and work in for a personal protection dog and not get him titled in something also? His pedigree is great, wouldn't I want to carry that great pedigree on? He might end up being a great protection dog, but nothing on paper will show it. 

What do you think about this? (I'm new to training, but I'm determined to carry it out.) It greatly interests me and I want my GSD to be a well mannered, obiendent and protective family member.....With children in the house, I have to stay on top of it... 

I've never raised a Male GSD....When they reach certain ages, will they try to test me more, try showing dominance. What are common ages for a male to start expressing these things? I want to make sure I know what to expect and look for.....

All opinions welcomed


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

It doesn't really matter. If you want to do it, then do it. You don't have to do anything if you don't want to. It is not stupid to focus on only what you're looking to achieve, provided you never neglect your dog. If your dog is a fine example of the breed, he will prove it in his work.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

to me having a PPD that was trained professionally is a title. i
don't think it's stupid if you don't go for a title. only you know
if you want to continue his pedigree. your dog's pedrigree is great
but you don't know how his progeny will turn out. if your dog turns
out to be a great PPD the fact that he is a great PPD shows it/speaks 
for itself.



Jmoore728 said:


> Hey guys....I've been thinking....My male GSD is only 13 weeks old. My goal is personal protection trained and family member. My sons are 1 1/2 and 4 1/2 years old. I know it's a long process to train one for personal protection....
> 
> >>>>> Would it be stupid to put all this dedication and work in for a personal protection dog and not get him titled in something also? <<<<<
> His pedigree is great, wouldn't I want to carry that great pedigree on? He might end up being a great protection dog, but nothing on paper will show it. <<<<<
> ...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well you asked for all opinions so...

I always question what someone's definition of a PPD is. Some people are willing to pump thousands of dollars into getting the dog trained for protection because they feel like they need that protection for whatever reason. I can't even grasp those reasons because I've never had any type of danger or threat in my life that would require me to have a PPD type dog. I know 100% that just having my GSD around (plus with the temperament that I know he has), my house is more than safe enough without the added expense and liability (huge liability to have a bite trained dog).

I think titling and dog sport is much more fun. There is a set goal, there is a reason to do it (in my mind that is). I know exactly what I need to do and I will get exactly what I want. It gives you the gratification and satisfaction of achieving what you set out to do. A PPD dog...well at the end of the day you're really hoping that the dog never gets tested.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Well you asked for all opinions so...
> 
> I always question what someone's definition of a PPD is. Some people are willing to pump thousands of dollars into getting the dog trained for protection because they feel like they need that protection for whatever reason. I can't even grasp those reasons because I've never had any type of danger or threat in my life that would require me to have a PPD type dog. I know 100% that just having my GSD around (plus with the temperament that I know he has), my house is more than safe enough without the added expense and liability (huge liability to have a bite trained dog).
> 
> I think titling and dog sport is much more fun. There is a set goal, there is a reason to do it (in my mind that is). I know exactly what I need to do and I will get exactly what I want. It gives you the gratification and satisfaction of achieving what you set out to do. A PPD dog...well at the end of the day you're really hoping that the dog never gets tested.


agreed. unless your're police, military, or doing bodyguarding work, im not sure why you would need a dog that wants to take down people and do as much damage as possible.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

IMO, the training is far more important than the titles. In the end, what does a title mean? It is affirmation of your training. If you're not breeding, or competing isn't your cup of tea, there not really a point. 

Train, don't worry about titles. Obedience first, get an excellent foundation, then the right reputable/experienced trainer or club can help you get quality training as a protection dog. 

Also, do you want to do Schutzhund/IPO or actual protection training? They are different things... IPO teaches obedience, tracking and sport-like bitework.. personal protection is much more serious, and the training is more complex.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Might want to ask in the PPD forum or ask people who do this. As much as the breed is capable, I don't know many people that are truly training for PPD. A well-bred GSD will be naturally protective anyway.  You're going to find infinitely more people who are doing Schutzhund or other sports like PSA and SDA. I don't know if I know anyone that has a "PPD", other than maybe a SchH titled dog that is protective of the handler and thus referred to as a PPD.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Might want to ask in the PPD forum or ask people who do this. As much as the breed is capable, I don't know many people that are truly training for PPD. A well-bred GSD will be naturally protective anyway. You're going to find infinitely more people who are doing Schutzhund or other sports like PSA and SDA. I don't know if I know anyone that has a "PPD", other than maybe a SchH titled dog that is protective of the handler and thus referred to as a PPD.


This. Actual training for personal protection is totally different in every aspect from any sort of sport based bitework. Titling is basically an outside, third party opinion to affirm your training. There are plenty of people who don't breed who train for competition just for fun. It's a personal choice whether to participate or not


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Well you asked for all opinions so...
> 
> I always question what someone's definition of a PPD is. Some people are willing to pump thousands of dollars into getting the dog trained for protection because they feel like they need that protection for whatever reason. I can't even grasp those reasons because I've never had any type of danger or threat in my life that would require me to have a PPD type dog. I know 100% that just having my GSD around (plus with the temperament that I know he has), my house is more than safe enough without the added expense and liability (huge liability to have a bite trained dog).
> 
> I think titling and dog sport is much more fun. There is a set goal, there is a reason to do it (in my mind that is). I know exactly what I need to do and I will get exactly what I want. It gives you the gratification and satisfaction of achieving what you set out to do. A PPD dog...well at the end of the day you're really hoping that the dog never gets tested.


I agree...I guess at my point in life (I'm only 31) I'm afraid of failing,,..I'm new to training, but I've been reading SO much, watched 8week to 16 months by Michael Ellis....I really want to learn dog training. I want to be able to read a dog and know what to do....If that makes sense. 

My pup seems to be doing good...He will be 14weeks on the 19th. I'm not using any sort of compulsion training....Maininly focusing on marker training and socializing. It makes it a little tough because I have a 4 year that wants to do everything daddy does....It def makes it more stressful and slower paced. .Bane has a great food drive so I'm mainly using this form of training until teething is over. ..We have played a few sessions of tug, but over the past week, he hasn't been very engaged like previous ways....Proably my fault for allowing 24/7 access to all the toys....I stopped this today....After teething, Proably around 6 months, I will start the tugging/bite work back up....He def likes using his mouth. All audible sounds to date doesn't bother him....One thing we have been working on, is when outside at night and dogs start barking, he gets a little nervous....But tonight at my dad's house he acted confident, full of hisself, did great on some basic obedience.....Progress I hope. He loves using his mouth, so hopefully it will continue through this life. 

One bad thing about my area, no training clubs for SchH or other protection type training....I know I will reach a point where I will have to find a professional to work decoy, etc. If you know anyone in Oklahoma, please help me out 

I totally understand what you are saying. I would love to do SchH, and I'll see how my training goes. See how many mistakes I make during it, I don't want to end up with a $1,500 pet....I want to bring the best of him out....

Around my house, there is so many burglaries and Meth is out of control in my county and basically the entire state of Oklahoma. It's scary bad....I work shift work so I'm working 12 hours hoots 5pm-5am)while my wife and 2 boys are home alone...Just this year we have had several disturbances.. Thank God I didn't have to resort to deadly force. We live in a nice neighborhood but tons of outsiders go block by block checking to see if car doors are locked. They keeping looking until they find one unlocked. Same thing with houses....Me and my wife were home and doorbell rang at 1pm....I was in the bedroom my 1 year old.....I rewound the camera system, and this punk rode his bike up to my front door....Knocked. Then grabbed my wife's cigs off the table. He is acting all jittery, look I'm fought shape....My wife always answers the door with her handgun behind her back.....Sorry for the length of the email, ,I was trying to provided as much info for Pomca City current events


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

My intentions isn't to have some ravaged beast. I want a well rounded, disciplined dog that is effluent in PP....not military type. My goal is to have do trained in PP....Not the where I send him out 50 yards to make a hit.....I'm talking about me and my family are out for a walk and some punks start trouble, asking for money, threaten us....I want my dog to respomd to danger....Whether a bark, or possible bite if they get close. The dog will do nothing without the handler telling him to do so


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

not to be an ass but if you have to hold a gun behind your back to answer the door then you should move. if you can afford a 1500 dog you should be able to afford to move (unless theres a really good reason why you cant). if someone has intentions to do harm to you then your dog isnt going to save you; he'll likely end up hurt too. now if some punk kid is just messing with you then a regular german shepherd should be plenty to scare them away. 

there is a schutzhund club that trains in downtown okc. if you want to do ppd then i'd look up k9 university. they're the only ones i've seen that actually ask the right questions and arent trying to sell you something. they will evaluate the dog and straight up tell you no if they think its too nervy or not cut out for the training. they seem to know theres a big difference between ppd and schutzhund. with that said, pp dogs are born not made. unless there are dogs in your pups pedigree that has been trained in personal protection then i highly doubt your dogs will have the right traits for it. most breeders dont breed with high defense in mind. they want the happy go lucky dog extremely social dog.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> not to be an ass but if you have to hold a gun behind your back to answer the door then you should move. if you can afford a 1500 dog you should be able to afford to move (unless theres a really good reason why you cant). if someone has intentions to do harm to you then your dog isnt going to save you; he'll likely end up hurt too. now if some punk kid is just messing with you then a regular german shepherd should be plenty to scare them away.
> 
> there is a schutzhund club that trains in downtown okc. if you want to do ppd then i'd look up k9 university. they're the only ones i've seen that actually ask the right questions and arent trying to sell you something. they will evaluate the dog and straight up tell you no if they think its too nervy or not cut out for the training. they seem to know theres a big difference between ppd and schutzhund. with that said, pp dogs are born not made. unless there are dogs in your pups pedigree that has been trained in personal protection then i highly doubt your dogs will have the right traits for it. most breeders dont breed with high defense in mind. they want the happy go lucky dog extremely social dog.


Way off.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jmoore728 said:


> My intentions isn't to have some ravaged beast. I want a well rounded, disciplined dog that is effluent in PP....not military type. My goal is to have do trained in PP....Not the where I send him out 50 yards to make a hit.....I'm talking about me and my family are out for a walk and some punks start trouble, asking for money, threaten us....I want my dog to respomd to danger....Whether a bark, or possible bite if they get close. The dog will do nothing without the handler telling him to do so


What is "military type?" Why wouldn't a military working dog be fluent in personal protection?

Side note: effluent is liquid waste, like sewage 



Training an aggressive bark is pretty easy and can be done by yourself with the assistance of a novice helper. Training the dog to assess threats, bite when appropriate and out will take the help of an experienced trainer. If you don't have the appropriate type of club close enough to you to train at regularly, you won't be able to train the dog to be a PPD.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> This. Actual training for personal protection is totally different in every aspect from any sort of sport based bitework. Titling is basically an outside, third party opinion to affirm your training. There are plenty of people who don't breed who train for competition just for fun. It's a personal choice whether to participate or not


I wouldn't call PSA and PPD totally different. I also train IPO as though it were for PPD (because mine fill the role of PPD first).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

You'd be better served making the long drive to the right person for a weekend of training one a month than training weekly with folks who don't know what they are doing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

As a 30 year GSD owner (and my last three have been very solid working lines, ) and as the parent of kids and grandkids be cautious with your path. I have never felt the need to train a PPD but think you need to be very careful with overestimating the discernment capability of a dog, any dog. In the right hands he can be a tool. In the wrong, a liability. And you best be checking your homeowners insurance if you plan to do this training.

Children fight, wrestle, play with friends, scream, etc. and it is asking a lot of the dog to discern...they are all dogs...my own preference is to stop at the deterrent level. I believe boomer is right as well, A $1500 working line dog may or may not be a suitable PP candidate. 

Can't tell you what to expect with YOUR dog. Some may have insights based on pedigree since he is a puppy but even in the same litter they can be all different.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Excuse my lack of terminology, military as in plane jumping, etc..Many dogs sports include PP. I understand that a SchH dog and true PPD are different. Once my dogs matures, I will know if he has the "fight drive" for PP...Impossible to judge a dogs fight/defensive drive at such a young age.. From everything I've been told, watched, and read. this doesn't start coming out until the dog reaches maturity. Everyone has been great, Boomers comment offended me somewhat... 

As for having a PP dog, My intentions aren't what Boomer describes...I'm not training my dog to eat everyone he encounters I live in a great neighborhood, I have my Federal Firearms License, my job consists of shift work and my wife and kids are alone at night often, our previous German Shepherd had to be put down about 6 months ago due to cancer, we live in an evil world...99% of the criminals will flee if they hear dogs barking or see a large dog...The other 1%, it doesn't matter if I had a tank in my front yard, they will continue until stopped....Might be a gun or a dog....Doesn't matter where you live. You think if I bought a $500,000 house it's going to matter? Not one bit...They don't follow the laws...Why do people have PP dogs? They have them to protect, allow early warning, to create a barrier between the threat and handler.... I will also do the same for my dog. 

The pedigree is there for my dog to succeed. My breeder has 20-25 years of experience and she has her own personal protection dogs. I had to go by her kennel today so my pup could get tattooed. I've met all her dogs and I've been around all of them several times. She has a great deal of passion for the GSD. Her kennel has produced many police K9's, SAR, etc....She has titled her own dogs. She knows what she is doing, so I trust her completely. My pups father just started PP training and he is excelling very well. No dog is guaranteed to succeed. My breeder evaluates all her pups so she knows how each pup "ranks". It's not foolproof though. 

If he doesn't exceed as a PP dog I'm not going to shoot him. I will find something else...In case you missed it, I've been wanting to learn dog training for awhile now. Everyone is a newbie at one point. It's a personal goal I have. PP, SchH, IPO, etc, I find all of them very interesting and I'm wanting to learn the training techniques involved. My breeders kennel has many non formal training sessions for the owners of her dogs. She doesn't charge me to bring my pup over and work him.. She provide seminars from different trainers/decoys.....So I will have the support I need for this process. 
My post was everywhere and if I took your post the wrong way (Boomer) I apologize. It sounds like you know everything about me, my dog, my job, my house, breeders kennel, crime stats, etc.....It was a pointless comment in my opinion....It provided me with no information....Except that I should move, have my wife answer the door without worry every time, etc. Please tell me you're not a Liberal?!? Sounds very convincing,,,lol..


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> As a 30 year GSD owner (and my last three have been very solid working lines, ) and as the parent of kids and grandkids be cautious with your path. I have never felt the need to train a PPD but think you need to be very careful with overestimating the discernment capability of a dog, any dog. In the right hands he can be a tool. In the wrong, a liability. And you best be checking your homeowners insurance if you plan to do this training.
> 
> Children fight, wrestle, play with friends, scream, etc. and it is asking a lot of the dog to discern...they are all dogs...my own preference is to stop at the deterrent level. I believe boomer is right as well, A $1500 working line dog may or may not be a suitable PP candidate.
> 
> Can't tell you what to expect with YOUR dog. Some may have insights based on pedigree since he is a puppy but even in the same litter they can be all different.


I totally agree....I understand I need to be very careful and my the kids safety is #1... I appreciate that reminder...I'm taking this very serious. My breeder knows I'm green to this and she knows what my goals are...She wouldn't hand over something she thought I couldn't handle....At $1500 dollars, he might not have what it takes for PP work and that's fine if it turns out this way. It will be a great learning block for me....Should be a good dog for me start out with....Then hopefully in a few years, I can get a "little more dog" if needed or wanted, Thr breeder weighed in on my pup selection....I spent time with each pup. She let me decide ultimately but one of the pups she strongly advised me that she wouldn't feel comfortable with me picking that pup for my kids sake....So we scratched that one off....It was a great pup, but not for my situation.... My pup is very good with the kids, he learned right off that the kids are off limits....He basically ignores them now....Well, my 4 1/2 year old thinks it's so cool when he starts running and Bane chases him...I'm still working on my 4 1/2 old son...I keep telling him this will cause a bad habit later on...He is getting better....Bane is very gentle with our 1 1/2 year old...Of course we are always supervising when he is around the kids. 

I appreciate all the feedback and no pun intended. You guys have been a tremendous help and I'm sure this forum will benefit me greatly....


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Jmoore728 said:


> I've been wanting to learn dog training for awhile now. Everyone is a newbie at one point. It's a personal goal I have. PP, SchH, IPO, etc, I find all of them very interesting and I'm wanting to learn the training techniques involved.


Well then, it sounds like you already know your answer. 

My advice, echoing a couple of people on the first page, is to go out there and train, if that's something that interests you. Don't get too fixated on titles. If you enjoy it and the dog enjoys it and the competition bug bites, then the titles will come in time. But it really is more about the journey than the destination, and I think a lot of people make themselves unhappy by losing sight of that.

Just find something you like, do it for a while, and see where it takes you.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

lol well i did start out by saying "not to be an ass" but i guess i was. my point is if you live in an environment where you are paranoid enough to hold a gun behind your back to answer the door then thats not a normal or good environment. i dont live in ponca city but i do live in okc. i too have had stuff stolen out of my car. i even had an arrow shot through the back window of my suv. i use to live in downtown okc and got my door kicked down in broad day light and my house robbed. to me if you live in a dangerous place its better to move then to fortify your house. 

my second point is if a tank in your lawn isnt going to stop the 1% then what makes you think a dog will? that 1% will kill your protection trained dog in a heart beat. so basically you made my point for me. a well bred german shepherd will deter 99% of threats just by barking but for that 1%, a dog isnt going to save you. in the 1% cases, its you thats saving the dog. i also disagree and where you live is important. crime rates differ from county to county for a reason. but now we're just talking about non sense and not dogs.

what kennel did you get your pup from again? i too live in oklahoma and would love to visit the kennel. from what you describe it sounds like a great one.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

I don't think I've explained my goals very well..I was rereading the posts and I think I gave you guys the wrong impression. .When I say PPD, what I'm meaning is I want to work him on the sleeve, and suit eventually...Mostly Prey drive and minimal fight/defensive drive as he matures. I don't plan to teach him to bite on command. I'm way to green for a true PPD. I have much to learn....When he matures, I do plan on having his fight/defensive drive tested by someone with a lot of experience to see how his nerves are. I want to know....His father and grandfather is very confident with great nerves...Both great on the protection side with great temperament .As is his mother. I won't do anything that I can't handle or the dog can't handle. If something doesn't seem right, I will bail out completely...Sorry for making it sound like I was wanting a "CEO" type PPD.....My goal is to have a confident male that is a great family dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jmoore, I am going to offer a little unsolicited advice and you can take it or leave it, but I ask that you at least read it and consider it. 

If you are a novice at dog training, possibly a novice at owning a dog, my advice to you is to go the IPO route first. You seem to have PP first on your list. And there was some mention of professional training, which I am not wholly against (I am talking about sending your dog away for training), I wouldn't do this, but I understand that it makes sense for some people. 

But, working dogs are, well, working dogs. In order to be suitable for even IPO, they have to have a temperament that isn't going to be a shrinking violet. Which means, they can be a challenge for people who haven't owned a working dog yet. Some are very biddible, others require a very confident leader who will give the dog plenty of exercise and mentally tire the dog out, while not allowing the dog to be overly pushy. They require training that is fair, and flexible, that builds the bond of trust and leadership between you and the dog. 

This is enough to be going on with on a first-time GSD. Get your BH, and then go for IPO. If you finish that, and you are charged about the dog and want to go farther, then PP training will not disappear in the next two years. I think that it would be better to start out with a great dog and do the IPO, it will train you how to train, and what to look for in your next dog. And maybe you will see that a well-trained dog is all the deterrant that you need. But if not. You will be ready then to move on to the next step in dog trainining. 

I just think personal protection dog training for a newbie can be a recipe for disaster.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jmoore728 said:


> I don't think I've explained my goals very well..I was rereading the posts and I think I gave you guys the wrong impression. .When I say PPD, what I'm meaning is I want to work him on the sleeve, and suit eventually...Mostly Prey drive and minimal fight/defensive drive as he matures. I don't plan to teach him to bite on command. I'm way to green for a true PPD. I have much to learn....When he matures, I do plan on having his fight/defensive drive tested by someone with a lot of experience to see how his nerves are. I want to know....His father and grandfather is very confident with great nerves...Both great on the protection side with great temperament .As is his mother. I won't do anything that I can't handle or the dog can't handle. If something doesn't seem right, I will bail out completely...Sorry for making it sound like I was wanting a "CEO" type PPD.....My goal is to have a confident male that is a great family dog.


IPO, will train the dog in obedience, tracking, and protection -- bite work, the dog goes for the sleeve, and learns to bark and hold, and learns to out. That is just a part of it though. 

The BH, is a test that you do with the dog, after training the dog in obedience. In the test you move through a crowd, heel on and off lead, do some agility, and there is some temperament stuff as well, including a gun shot. I think that originally, passing the BH was the step prior to schutzhund/IPO training in the three phases. It is a good goal to start with. And then you can move on with the dog and learn together.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

if you want to work him on the suit with mostly prey and no defense then thats schutzhund. thats basically on your way to getting your dog titled. now if you want a TRUE personal protection dog then working your dog on a sleeve through prey is discouraged. if your dog thinks a sleeve is prey and its all a game then the dog will always see it that way. with pp dogs you dont want them to think its a game. 

i found your kennel and looked through the website and in no way are they breeding dogs meant for true personal protection work. the website even states their goal is to breed good family pets. they are mixing and matching show and working lines. they have an ipo section on their website and i'm sure your dog could do schutzhund but i highly doubt it could handle pp work.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I found the website and did not bounce much around because my Kaspersky virus program gave me a Trojan warning. Just an FYI for anyone else, not a judgement call. 

But I did see mainly showline dogs. I had assumed working line from the post but, once again, each dog an individual.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

selzer said:


> Jmoore, I am going to offer a little unsolicited advice and you can take it or leave it, but I ask that you at least read it and consider it.
> 
> If you are a novice at dog training, possibly a novice at owning a dog, my advice to you is to go the IPO route first. You seem to have PP first on your list. And there was some mention of professional training, which I am not wholly against (I am talking about sending your dog away for training), I wouldn't do this, but I understand that it makes sense for some people.
> 
> ...


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

She does have "showline" bloodlines but she also has pure working bloodlines....Most of her dogs have both....But more on the showline I think.....She took a break from running her kennel full time for a few years to take a rescue job full time. Took a little break from breeding, but still maintained her dogs. As far as their working ability, they don't lack...I been around her dogs quite a bit and I've talked to quite a few people that own her puppies....I'm not experienced enough to debate the showline vs working line.....I'm sure there is a difference, but I would also think it varied greatly by which bloodline you were looking at....Probably a lot of bad showline GSD bloodlines out there....I don't doubt that. But I've only heard great things about her dogs over the past few years.... We didn't a training session with one of the Stillwater K9 officers a few years back and he talked very highly of her dogs also.....If that means anything. It wouldn't be good for me to own a true working line yet in my opinion. Hopefully I will be able to purchase a true working line dog in a few years....Watching them compete on video is jaw dropping. Truly amazes me....At this point, I would probably have problems starting with a 100% working line GSD,,,, Not the dogs fault, but I wouldn't want the dog to suffer due to me now knowing what to do with my hands...lol

As far as my pup, I'm completely happy with him as my family is too (to date) I could care less if he is a true working line or showline as long as he is confident, structurally stable, good temperament and good nerves... 

I've read more than I can handle over the past 6 months....my interest started with Schutzhund about 5 years ago when I purchased my first GSD... I've read "Schutzhund Theory and Training Methods by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hilliard several times, watched most of the Leerburg Michael Ellis videos, and Spent countless hours on this forum reading...I'm aware of possible problems in training, what to watch for, do this, do that....etc....I lack handler experience..I had to cut my females training short when learning of her joint problems....Her X-rays at 12 months old were very bad....I didn't want to push her, so we stick with the ball and swimming from then on,,,, But the research has helped me a ton in seeing things out... I'm learning and picking up things as I go....


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> if you want to work him on the suit with mostly prey and no defense then thats schutzhund. thats basically on your way to getting your dog titled. now if you want a TRUE personal protection dog then working your dog on a sleeve through prey is discouraged. if your dog thinks a sleeve is prey and its all a game then the dog will always see it that way. with pp dogs you dont want them to think its a game.
> 
> i found your kennel and looked through the website and in no way are they breeding dogs meant for true personal protection work. the website even states their goal is to breed good family pets. they are mixing and matching show and working lines. they have an ipo section on their website and i'm sure your dog could do schutzhund but i highly doubt it could handle pp work.


You might be 100% correct. I do know for sure her kennel has produced some active K9's SAR, etc....But a true PPD, you are probably correct. As far as true PPD, I will have to ask her about it..Banes father who is now 3 years old is excelling well at his bitework/PP work. She just started the PP/bitework with him a few months ago....Banes grandfather had pretty good protection scores in his SchH scores...95,96, and 94 I think..But this is very different than a true PPD from what I've read.....


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Jmoore728 said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> > If I wanted to work Bane on the sleeve or suit in the future, is this something that I should approach with caution also? Would this be considered prey drive work?
> ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

boomer11 said:


> you can start your pup on bite work now. start with a rag on a flirt pole to build drive. then you can move to a bite pillow for targeting and grip work. then you can move to a sleeve. its all fun for the pup and most good working dogs love it. *schuzthund bite work is just a game so you can even wear the sleeve yourself if you know what your doing*. and yes the high 90 scores are from the schuzthund protection phase. this means the dog has nice grip and nice drive and is good at the game. if your breeder is actually working or trailing her dogs then she should be your main source for schutzhund/bite work info. she'll be motivated to help you because she is motivated to help pups from her kennel succeed.
> 
> btw i like the name bane. i think im going to name my next pup vader.


I don't agree with this....if you are serious about training and possibly titling your dog, don't go about it without some help(help meaning an experienced IPO helper/trainer) Remember the saying 'no training is better than bad training' and young dogs if they "have it" will have it when they are a yr old. Let the pup get thru teething and in the meantime, decide where/what you want to do, go to a club or few and observe, learn. I wouldn't just fly by the seat of your pants....it'll bite you in the butt, especially if the dog has SL's in the pedigree.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't agree with this....if you are serious about training and possibly titling your dog, don't go about it without some help(help meaning an experienced IPO helper/trainer) Remember the saying 'no training is better than bad training' and young dogs if they "have it" will have it when they are a yr old. Let the pup get thru teething and in the meantime, decide where/what you want to do, go to a club or few and observe, learn. I wouldn't just fly by the seat of your pants....it'll bite you in the butt, especially if the dog has SL's in the pedigree.


Good information. I'm doing very little with him right now. Just letting him be a puppy and keeping everything positive. Just doing normal obedience stuff (sit, down, that's about it). Playing a little tug with him at times. I will discontinue all mouth games at 16 weeks and wait until after he is finished teething before doing any more. Trying to take him to as many places as possible.. 

I'm trying to avoid bad habits created by me or the family. I know I will make mistakes along the way, hopefully I can get them to a minimum. The kennel has all the necessary tools for when I start doing bite work type of stuff. I will probably invest in a sleeve at some point. 

Equipment bias I'm sorta struggling with right now (toys)... I bought a few tugs of different sizes. Already have a good collection of toys, but I've been buying more along the way. Still trying to find that favorite one. The two tugs I bought are made from fire hose....He isn't crazy about it....It's a lot firmer. He isn't getting a very good grip on it....I'm not doing any formal training though...Just playing with him daily...I'm sure I'm creating some bad habits...As in laying down during tug play time....My fault for allowing him to. Not laying down in a lazy way, we tug around and when I eventually let him win....He will sometimes lay down and romp on his toy.... 

My main concern is bad trianing.. That's one reason I'm doing very little training with him until after he teeths. I will def, without question, seek help with someone that has experience with SchH, IPO, bitework, etc when that time comes. I keep in touch with the breeder and will be working Bane a lot at her kennel. 

I made a flirt pole a few weeks ago.....I use it on occasion. He got to the point where he was biting the lead instead...lol....I also made a bamboo chatter stick...There is a field close to my house that has a lot of bamboo....I swiped a few...My first one worked okay, but it's durability isn't the best. I'll buy one here soon,... 

I'll keep you updated on progress and my goof ups.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> Jmoore728 said:
> 
> 
> > you can start your pup on bite work now. start with a rag on a flirt pole to build drive. then you can move to a bite pillow for targeting and grip work. then you can move to a sleeve. its all fun for the pup and most good working dogs love it. schuzthund bite work is just a game so you can even wear the sleeve yourself if you know what your doing. and yes the high 90 scores are from the schuzthund protection phase. this means the dog has nice grip and nice drive and is good at the game. if your breeder is actually working or trailing her dogs then she should be your main source for schutzhund/bite work info. she'll be motivated to help you because she is motivated to help pups from her kennel succeed.
> ...


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