# Question: Whip or Spanking



## Ba_reefer (Jan 17, 2014)

Hi I have a 5 year old shepherd name Cody. He as aggression towards New dogs but not all and will bark try to attack other dogs. I have been had 2 different trainers try to fix it with different collars and "nicer" methods other than whip or spanking. Well it didnt work so i went to a specialist in shepherds and protection training. He is actually my friend's recommendation whos a local law enforcement officer. I have a lot of respect and trust in this trainer as well but i want to ask if the corrections he is tell me common and ok to do in public. He says yes and there will be people with their opinions. I have to say it did work. and i have never seen Cody behave so well with another large dog. He has trained and sold dogs to the local law enforcement and upon the first day of training he had me take my dog around his dogs and see how i handled and basically said i was doing everything wrong and was treating him like a baby by having to command him to stop to many times like 20 times when i should only have to do it once. He said the correction that needed to happen was a whip on the rib area. He had me practice on a rice bag sack and then explained and told me when to use it to correct Cody which i have to say worked very well.

Background: ive tried positive re-enforcement, halti, choke chain, pinch collar, e-collar, etc.

Question: Do you guys whip the dog with the end of the leash?
Do you guys do it in public?
If so what do you say when people criticize you? 

Thanks in advance for any input, im new at training and i have taken 2 courses and i am hoping to learn more about behavior and training. thanks again


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I would not take this advice. Whipping him with the end of the leash? Unless I'm missing something... It sounds like you have not been around an effective trainer who uses either positive reinforcement or prong (or a good mix).

I can't say anything about how you handle your dog because I haven't seen it. The trainer could be correct about handling your dog inappropriately. But I would not be smacking him with the leash. If anything, it sounds like he is just getting you to mentally shut down your dog. Your dog isn't learning anything, he isn't figuring out what the acceptable behavior is or being redirected, he is learning that he needs to shut down or he faces severe physical punishment.

Not only does this not teach him anything, I don't imagine it does much to build you and your dog's working relationship. It sounds like trainers who didn't work out before probably didn't know what they were doing with an aggression issue. I run into that quite often. Plenty of trainers that can fix basic bad manners, but don't know what to do about actual aggression. 

Find a well-reviewed trainer who uses an actual training method, talk to them and get a feel for how they train, possibly observe a class of theirs, try a training session. But I would not stay around this "specialist" trainer. I understand that many dogs need different training methods, but there is a difference between a trainer who just doesn't work out, and a trainer who is not skilled enough to break down their training into successful steps.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I'd find a different trainer and use a muzzle for the time being.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm guessing the end of the leash was used because you've kinda ruined/misused (sorry no offense meant), the prong/pinch, ecollar, choke, positive only, etc...(your own admittance "I've tried everything....").

I've seen the leash used like this as punishment. A fast, quick, wrist flick, of a smack with the end of leash. The key to your story is "I have to say it did work. and i have never seen Cody behave so well with another large dog." If what your saying is true "he's trained and placed *many* dogs in local law enforcement agencies"...this dude has more experience than some strangers on an internet forum. 

You've exhausted all your options..you found something that's working...your dog isn't walking away ruined or hurt or abused...actually, he's walking away better than he's ever been (your words) and yet you go to the internet to see what strangers say. I just don't get people...I really don't.

I hope Bailiff comments (as he deals with pets/owners all the time of similar situation). You can use ANYTHING as punishment...hand, stick, ecollar, etc. It's the fair punishment, paired with the other reinforcers of the proper behavior, that get's you improvement. A lot around here don't like punishment, and don't like to talk about it or consider it as an option (or that pretty much any object can be used). No matter how much it's been proven (as long as it's fair and paired with the reinforcing behaviors/rewards) to work.

Good luck, OP.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Nobody on this forum is going to promote whipping or spanking a dog unless they are here to start trouble.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

When you used the e collar what kind of e collar did you use and what level did you use?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh and I've been "criticized" for putting my dog in a "down" too much when I should be "letting him be free and sniff things." People are stupid, I now apparently carry myself with an air of, "don't touch my dog and don't let your dog touch my dog" because it rarely ever happens. Don't worry about what the "public" thinks. The "public" has proven itself to be pretty unreliable and stupid, imo lol. Personally I think an ecollar would be easier, more effective (perfect timing), and if properly fit (and a quality collar), would be preferable. The leash is long, lanky, hard to maneuver quickly, timing would be hard, and just doesn't seem as efficient to me considering all the other tools available. fwiw


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right. Nobody even seasoned trainers with hard dogs want to get caught cranking on a dog because people that don't understand can really cause a stink.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Eta: nevermind, pm'd you bailiff.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Did you ask your dog in a nice soft voice if he would behave? It works wonders for me 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ba_reefer (Jan 17, 2014)

Baillif said:


> When you used the e collar what kind of e collar did you use and what level did you use?


i used a dogtra at levels up to 60.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What was the procedure you used?


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## Ba_reefer (Jan 17, 2014)

no offense taken, thanks for the reply, Just to be clear everything i have used was recommended by a trainer and the trainers taught me how they should be used. They all work temperately and Cody seems ignore the corrections. The reason im asking is because havent heard about this kind of correction and want to learn about whats other methods people use. I am obviously being fair and the trainer explained all the steps in helping cody understand its not a punishment but more of understanding whats wrong and right. 



DaniFani said:


> I'm guessing the end of the leash was used because you've kinda ruined/misused (sorry no offense meant), the prong/pinch, ecollar, choke, positive only, etc...(your own admittance "I've tried everything....").
> 
> I've seen the leash used like this as punishment. A fast, quick, wrist flick, of a smack with the end of leash. The key to your story is "I have to say it did work. and i have never seen Cody behave so well with another large dog." If what your saying is true "he's trained and placed *many* dogs in local law enforcement agencies"...this dude has more experience than some strangers on an internet forum.
> 
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You went up to 60 and said the dog wasn't responding but the iq has 100 levels and the NCPs have 127 so...yeah.


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## Ba_reefer (Jan 17, 2014)

i started at buy using the warning button first which sends a vibration. if it looks like he is going to engage in something bad. if he does with the warning i send a nick at the lowest setting i never use the contn. function. then increase the setting as needed. but i always use the warning first 



Baillif said:


> What was the procedure you used?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Your trainer doesn't know what he is doing. Send me a pm and I'll tell you how to fix it.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Yes, yes and yes.*



Ba_reefer;5543857Question: Do you guys whip the dog with the end of the leash?
Do you guys do it in public?
If so what do you say when people criticize you?[/QUOTE said:


> It's not an everyday thing, but once in a long while the dog does something aggressive towards man or dog that is extreme and deserves immediate employment of the leash across his shoulders.
> 
> That stops every bad behavior and re-establishes my position as his superior.
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you have to beat the dog, to get it to obey, than its the wrong match.

I think in your post it does say it all. You told the dog to do something repeatedly. Your first trainer should have nipped that in the bud. Repeating commands TEACHES the dog to ignore you. Don't do that. Tell the dog once, and then help him if he does not comply. 

You can beat your dog or whip your dog, but if you do not improve your own leadership, your consistency and your timing, then, all you are going to do is increase the level of force needed to manage your dog. Striking the dog alone is not going to give you a well-trained dog.

If your k9-training dog trainer teaches you some basic rules in how to train. Like don't repeat commands. Don't give commands you cannot enforce immediately. Start and end training on an upbeat positive not. Praise your dog when he is doing what you want. And so forth.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

simba405 said:


> Did you ask your dog in a nice soft voice if he would behave? It works wonders for me
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:rofl:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Longfisher said:


> It's not an everyday thing, but once in a long while the dog does something aggressive towards man or dog that is extreme and deserves immediate employment of the leash across his shoulders.
> 
> That stops every bad behavior and re-establishes my position as his superior.
> 
> ...


It re-establishes your position that you have no idea what it means to train a dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> If you have to beat the dog, to get it to obey, than its the wrong match.
> 
> I think in your post it does say it all. You told the dog to do something repeatedly. Your first trainer should have nipped that in the bud. Repeating commands TEACHES the dog to ignore you. Don't do that. Tell the dog once, and then help him if he does not comply.
> 
> ...


Oops, didn't finish my thought at the end -- well, if he teaches you some basic rules in how to train, then you may find you do not need to whip your dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

First lose this trainer. Anyone who tells you to whip a dog has not kept up with training in the last 25 years. 

Second, using an Ecollar at the levels that you describe to punish this behavior, can easily backfire and make the problem worse. 

Third, look at this protocol. Game Chasing (Crittering) It has failed me only once, and that was when the owner refused to do his homework.


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