# Wesson's Last Litter



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Wesson is almost 5 weeks in whelp with her last litter <3 <3 <3









I'm extremely nervous and excited about it. It's a complete outcross, so, it could be epic, mediocre, or a complete mess. Nothing to do but wait and cross my fingers, but I'm pleased with the dog I selected

V CH Ptd Waiko von der Zenteiche IPO1 KKL "a" normal


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

This type of cross was just being discussed in another thread....I believe.

It'll be interesting to see what you end up with.....

Your Wesson sure is purdy.........


SuperG


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I do love your beautiful Wesson. We are going to require many puppy photos.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

they seem very similar in type.
good luck !


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> I do love your beautiful Wesson. We are going to require many puppy photos.


I agree, pictures will be needed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

She is beautiful! I love her color.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What are you trying to get out of the puppies, Jackie? Why did you choose to breed to a WG?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on why you decided to do this cross and how you made the selection. I am very curious about line crossing because it seems to me if people don't start doing it more we are on our way to 3 different breeds


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Looking forward to maybe seeing some pups this summer at Canfield. Wesson is beautiful and the cross should produce some beautiful pups. Two beautiful dogs have to have gorgeous puppies.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> What are you trying to get out of the puppies, Jackie? Why did you choose to breed to a WG?


Short version: Need more drive, a more socially open dog (which this dog has and is).

I am looking to maintain type while increasing drives, taking a bit of edge off my bitch. They should be quite sound, plushy, typey, black and tan otter bears. Sire and dam both have good off switches (Waiko came to stay for me awhile, I also got to work him myself). 

He is a very confident dog, more handler sensitive than I care for, but not bad to introduce to my bitch. Biddable, hard working. Adjusts well to all environments, no sound sensitivities. I wish he were more expressive. He's flat in that area. Pasterns could be better.

His grips are full and hard, full commitment. He had no problem obeying me while working protection, even though I'd never handled him in that capacity before.

Waiko was enjoyable to have around the house, and he was even safe with my cat (and he'd never ever seen a cat before).

As for why I decided to cross? It was always in the cards. I tried breeding her to a WGSL her last litter, and the whole thing was a mess (not the fault of the stud owner, was the semen bank). She missed.

There isn't a lot I like in AmLines right now. I'm extremely picky, and I'd rather take my chances on an outcross than linebreed on the animals that are out there right now.

Consistency in aesthetic type is not what I am after. It is solid minds with good structure that you can do anything with. I don't want land weasels, coyotes, or hyenas, and I don't want lazy or psychotic.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on why you decided to do this cross and how you made the selection. I am very curious about line crossing because it seems to me if people don't start doing it more we are on our way to 3 different breeds


I actually found Waiko while cruising through the PDB classifieds. I'd been looking for a WGSL that was similar in phenotype to what I already had, as I didn't want to lose the angles I had, but wanted to improve on temperament and type.

This boy caught my eye, I saw videos, liked what I saw, things progressed rather quickly from there. I am super lucky that Waiko got to come up and stay with me for awhile.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok how do I get the long version lol. I find this fascinating. I have also never seen a WGSL in recent memory that I can recall that like the look of as much as Waiko.

I think what you're doing is awesome....it sounds like you are trying to crate the exact type of dog I would like to have in my house. Sure wish I was in the market for a puppy!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I have also never seen a WGSL in recent memory that I can recall that like the look of as much as Waiko.


I stack the dog differently than the do in the SV ring.

I hate the way most of them are stacked. I'm picky about how dogs are set up though, and lifting a dog up by it's chest and dropping it is not an acceptable form of set up -_- How boorish.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Xeph said:


> I stack the dog differently than the do in the SV ring.
> 
> I hate the way most of them are stacked. I'm picky about how dogs are set up though, and lifting a dog up by it's chest and dropping it is not an acceptable form of set up -_- How boorish.


Oh so that side view pic of him is you handling him?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Yup, that's me setting him up. He's also freshly groomed. Nails done, teeth clean, bathed and blown out so he doesn't have cow licks.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Xeph said:


> Consistency in aesthetic type is not what I am after. It is solid minds with good structure that you can do anything with. I don't want land weasels, coyotes, or hyenas, and I don't want lazy or psychotic.


I have one of those psychotic coyotes. She epitomizes why people steer clear of ASL. Nice to see someone has a plan.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I really like your Wesson!!! Both dogs are gorgeous! Sounds like a good plan and cant to see how those pups turn out. I do like how you stacked the wgsl I'm not a fan how they are usually stacked either. Best wishes and congrats!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Thanks for posting this. I'm always interested in how/why breeders make the decisions that they do. You've got gorgeous parents going in, the litter should be exciting to see. I third (fourth?) the request for litter photos.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Week 5!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can't wait to hear how they turn out.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Short version: Need more drive, a more socially open dog (which this dog has and is).
> 
> I am looking to maintain type while increasing drives, taking a bit of edge off my bitch. They should be quite sound, plushy, typey, black and tan otter bears. Sire and dam both have good off switches (Waiko came to stay for me awhile, I also got to work him myself).
> 
> ...


I'm curious about this too. Piggybacking off this: Have you studied the pairings and results of other ASL/WGSL crosses? What initially made you decide to try this?

Are you thinking that this litter will net you an immediate step toward your goals, or are you thinking two or three generations down the road? My experience is limited and I'm really new to the breed, but I haven't seen many half ASL/half WGSL crosses be really successful in the AKC show ring - in my observation it is the next generation down that has done well. I know you've said you are more interested in bringing in working drives versus show ring conformation, though. I'm assuming that differing goal has informed your choice of which WGSL stud to bring in.

Pardon my nosiness. I have an American/German show line cross myself (3/4 ASL), and I am really happy with her, so I'll be interested to learn more!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Have you studied the pairings and results of other ASL/WGSL crosses? What initially made you decide to try this?


I have. That said, the pairings others have chosen were not pairings I necessarily would have made (they chose stud dogs I really did not care for, for various reasons). That said, the WD and RWD from last year's GSDCA national were half WGSL (Mailo Kuckucksland sons).

I have always wanted to do this cross. From the time I really started in this breed, it was always on the table.



> Are you thinking that this litter will net you an immediate step toward your goals, or are you thinking two or three generations down the road?


I always look at my long term goals. Short term is relatively immaterial beyond seeing what I actually have in front of me. I have planned breedings for the next 2-3 generations. And those breedings include incorporating *GASP* working lines!

There have been quite a few AmLine/WGSL crosses that have done fairly well in the show ring. They finish, they just aren't specialed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Awesome. I have bookmarked your Web page. I am really excited to see what you do with your breeding program


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Hopefully the answer is "Not muck it up"


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Oh boy she is getting big a few more weeks. Much puppy madness on the way the best kind of madness! I'm excited about the working lines you will be bringing in. Do you have ideas on who you are thinking of using?


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Sounds like an exciting litter! Looking forward to updates!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Xeph said:


> Hopefully the answer is "Not muck it up"


I guess you have to be willing to take a risk to do it...surely there were successes and failures in many breeding programs, I hope for a great outcome and learning experience!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Week 6!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Wesson at week 8 (as of Tuesday), plus pictures of her in her box, and today's x ray


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Wow she's gotten huge! Can't wait to see what you get. 
She's soooo pretty.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

She looks great!!!! Puppies!!!!!


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## jhfla (Jan 12, 2017)

Beautiful - looking forward to seeing the pups!


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## Spetzio (Oct 8, 2015)

Can I guess 7? Because I think I see 7 little heads/spines in there.  I could be way off though because I don't actually know anything about that! 

Congrats! That's so exciting, I'll definitely be checking back in on this thread to see how things progress!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

She had seven, but we unfortunately lost one at a day old. I spent all day today working to save another, and I will tentatively say I was successful. I had to learn to tube feed, which was nerve wracking.

Sub Q fluids and some tubed meals seems to have set her right.

This has been a frustrating start, but all the remaining puppies seem overall healthy.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Xeph said:


> She had seven, but we unfortunately lost one at a day old. I spent all day today working to save another, and I will tentatively say I was successful. I had to learn to tube feed, which was nerve wracking.
> 
> Sub Q fluids and some tubed meals seems to have set her right.
> 
> This has been a frustrating start, but all the remaining puppies seem overall healthy.


I'm sorry to hear you lost one. I hope the others go from strength to strength!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing pictures. I'm so sorry about the loss, never easy. I did see you on the big screen ..?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sorry you lost a pup. Congrats on your litter how exciting - puppies! When life is good it is good! Can't wait for photos!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Congratulations Jackie on the puppies . Looking forward to seeing them. Sorry about your loss of one little one. Hope you have smooth sailing from here on .
Maggi


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

So glad they're here, Jackie, and sorry about the one that was lost. And yes, we want photos, even though they all look like furry black guinea pigs at this age!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Littles


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Congratulations and sorry for the one you lost. 

I have stayed up 24 hrs straight tube feeding goat kids or feeding them colostrum from a syringe...it is a great victory when they turn the corner and you think they will live!

Look forward tk hearing more about these pups


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Great photos!!! Even though they are so little they look like a great looking bunch of pups!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Puppies are two weeks old today

Here's a link to the litter album if people would like to follow it 
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10158096103885607.1073741930.707190606&type=1&l=5a23099a87


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Of course we want to follow! How adorable.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They experienced their first betrayal today.

I wormed them.

There was much anger.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What did you use, mine usually don't mind strongid at all. 

What are your long-term breeding plans. Are you going to select one and breed back to your American lines or your WG Show lines?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Used Safeguard.

Plan on keeping a bitch back, will probably be bred to Strauss, and will see what's available out there beyond that. Not super crazy about anything American or Euro right now


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Wow what cuties.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Beautiful litter!


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Lovely pups! Can't wait to see them as they grow!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Two weeks and we start stacking


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The babies learned about solids today 
https://www.facebook.com/marcatoshepherds/videos/10158373183040607/?l=7284292104769752574

Pinako (purple) and Maes 
https://www.facebook.com/marcatoshepherds/videos/10158373182895607/?l=565791470664810162


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Oh no! I can't see. Bummer!

Never mind, just went back a page to the puppy album link. Now I'm happy. lol! Adorbs.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I would like to know when a breeding female usually retires.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I would like to know when a breeding female usually retires.


Depends on the health of the dog.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

@Stevenzachsmom

Try checking the videos out again 

@Julian_G

Depends entirely on the bitch. Wesson will be 5.5 next month. If I wanted one more litter out of her, it'd need to be her next season, and I don't think I want to do that. She's in great health, but this last litter was a little harder for her to whelp. We had one loss, but that could have been for any number of reasons.

She's had three litters and been a good mother for me, so I've no problem retiring her.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Xeph said:


> @*Stevenzachsmom*
> 
> Try checking the videos out again
> 
> ...


Because I know a breeder who breeds some of his females until 8 years old (and maybe past). They are supposedly very good producers of a "certain" kind of dog.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Oh my, they are too cute!!!!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

How exciting to watch them grow.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

They are adorable and hungry.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Julian G said:


> Because I know a breeder who breeds some of his females until 8 years old (and maybe past). They are supposedly very good producers of a "certain" kind of dog.


It depends on the bitch. Babs was retired at 5 years. Jenna had a litter at 8.5 years, 7 puppies, she raised them and was housed with the last 2 females until a few weeks ago, they will be 3 next month. She is an awesome mother, and does best when housed with a puppy or two. 

Jenna got a little depressed when I rehomed Nina. (Nikki was first.) That was hard. But I told her I would get her a puppy. And I did. (No, I did not buy a dog for my dog, but I did house the new pup with her. ) They are doing great, and her aspect changed immediately. She loves the little guy. When I take him somewhere, I just have to tell Jenna that I will bring him back. 

Of the two, Babs and Jenna, Jenna looks more healthy than Babsy. At 11.5 years you expect some signs of aging, and I can see them. But Babsy's are more pronounced. 

Jenna had 5 litters to Babs' 3, 39 pups to Babs 11. Babs had her first litter at almost 3 years, Jenna at almost 4 years.

I can't say that having litters and puppies later into life made her healthier, kept her younger, but it certainly did not hurt her at all. 

I knew a lady that bred a 10 year old bitch. She had 10 puppies and raised them all, no problem. It depends on your bitch. At some point, you worry whether the girl will be able to go through the whelping process without becoming too tired to continue whelping. If that were to happen, then she would probably need a C-section, and I think that with age we do not bounce back as quickly.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Puppies!!! They are such cuties -love that sound!


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

Such adorable pups! :wub:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

We have our very first coatie


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

This is my life right now, and you should be jealous.

Maes (left) and Pinako


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

It's working, I'm jealous. So adorable and all that puppy breath!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

You can have the puppy breath. I hate it lol


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Awww, Jackie, puppy breath is magical, lol


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I love puppy breath!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It is one of the worst smells on the planet to me, and I like the smell of skunk LOL


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Puppies will be 4 weeks on Monday, and I will be doing official headshots and stacks on the grooming table, which I'll post here. For now, here are the six otterbears of the Ray Charles litter 

Sheska









Pinako









Olivier









Winry









Maes









Hughes


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

They look so relaxed. I would love to cuddle those fuzzy butts.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Are these guys all spoken for? 

I'm keeping your breeding program on my short list for a future dog...I can't manage another one right now but down the road if you want a puppy buyer to get a dog out competing in obedience or tracking I'm your gal! I know a guy an hour north who gives herding lessons too but I have already bit off more than I can chew with my boy doing tracking, dock diving and rally


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## Spetzio (Oct 8, 2015)

I may or may not be partial to Hughes, that being my last name and all.  But gahh, they're all so cute! :wub: Congrats on the incredibly adorable and healthy litter!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Stacks. Four weeks old, not cooperative LOL

Winry









Maes









Olivier









Pinako









Sheska









Hughes


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

They are growing so fast!! Such cute pups! Do you have an idea who you may want to keep?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

So .. no bicolors? Unless maybe Sheska, can't see well enough to tell. They're all so cute ... I'd like a Pinako to go, please.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I'll take Maes, please and thank you. <3 <3 <3

Beauties!


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I can't believe they have grown so much already! They are beautiful! Thanks for posting pics!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Galathiel said:


> So .. no bicolors? Unless maybe Sheska, can't see well enough to tell. They're all so cute ... I'd like a Pinako to go, please.


No bi colors. Just dark Black and Tans. Sheska's a coatie it seems


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

They are all so cute and cuddly. I thought they stacked really well. Well thanks I got my puppy fix.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Puppies turned six weeks old yesterday. They are extremely bitey and busy. I have the wounds to prove it


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

It's time for more pictures, Jackie. I'll wait. lol!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

From the puppy party this past weekend
































































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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)




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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

The floofies!

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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)




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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

They are so cute! Now I want another puppy.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Okay, so which one are you in love with?!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Thank you, Jackie! Awesome pictures.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Adorable! Which one are you leaning towards? Beautiful litter!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Looking at keeping two to grow out. Olivier and Sheska.

I am not thrilled with the structure in this litter, but I was breeding more for drive anyway.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I really like Sheska. What is it about their structure that you don't like?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They're all built like typical WGSL. Toplines are poor. Sheska's is actually the worst


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I had to go back and look at the six week pictures you posted. I don't know enough about what to look at in a GSD puppy for show so I missed what you're seeing. Goes to show a knowledgeable eye sees more. I'd love to learn more, understand better. What should the topline have looked like? More level at that age?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Your puppies are awfully cute! Do you expect much structural change as they grow?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Top lines should always be straight. These puppies all have some curvature, most notable in Sheska (pink). 

I expect them to change a lot. Hopefully it will be for the better.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Are they all spoken for? (Just curious, not looking. Already have a pup on the way.)

What kind of homes are they going to? Any sport or IPO?

Such darlings!

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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Show/performance homes. Don't have anybody interested in IPO. I have two I'd like to test but honestly, I don't enjoy the sport and don't have the time or desire to dedicate myself to it. I'd rather herd.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Xeph said:


> They're all built like typical WGSL. Toplines are poor. Sheska's is actually the worst


Well, an outcross between the two lines was probably not going to net you anything show-worthy, usually. Maybe in the all-breed show ring. But usually, you are breeding for 2-3 generations down the line when you outcross, might be even longer mixing the lines. 

Arwen was 5/16 WGSL, and 11/16 ASL. I bred her to a WGSL dog, and got Jenna, Babs, and Heidi in two litters. Not terrible, pretty uniform litter, which I think you have there. But it is early to tell. Heidi got BOB in a puppy match, but there was no way we would take anything in a real show. Still they are good solid dogs. 

I bred Babs to a half WGSL, half WL/ASL dog and it was a disaster. I still have two of them, but it was all over the place, and I held nothing back for breeding and sold the dog. 

I bred Jenna to a WGSL dog, and got Bear, and Karma, and breeding them back to another WGSL, we did get one we showed in the all-breed ring. 

I am breeding away from the roach back, but occasionally I do get some curved/roaches. Not the end of the world. I love the large ears I was able to get from Arwen and Jenna. Some of the features and some of the temperament of the ASL is really nice. But I am in love with the WGSL dogs. 

Depending on what you hoped to accomplish by the cross, I think you might be pleasantly surprised when you breed back into whichever line you are going with. Don't lose hope. It's like planting olive trees. I think you plant olive trees for your grand children. What's ten years or so, when you put that in perspective?


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I find this facinating and love seeing what other people are doing with WGSL and WL outcrosses.

I think there's great potential there as someone who spent a long while researching WGSL breeders for a pup with higher drives. I found what I wanted but it took some time. 

I'd love to see a solid cross of the two lines.

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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I expected some WGSL type, but was hoping Wesson would override the toplines at least. Overall I'm getting what I wanted in terms of brains. I'm not surprised by structure right now, even if I am disappointed in it.

I knew going in that ending up with puppies good for show was lower. I have a couple I could sprobably, how in all breeds, which is fine. I hate specialties.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I'll be interested in what you get in the next generation or two when bred back in if you do that. I hope as the pups grow you get pictures to share, love to see how they all look at six months, a year, etc.. 


I still like Sheska, Olivier and Hughes. Ah heck, I think they're all adorable! One needs to play Lassie and head south to find his real home. *G*


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Puppies turned 7 weeks old yesterday. Got pictures today

Marcato's This Little Girl of Mine "Winry"


















Marcato's Let the Good Times Roll "Maes"


















Marcato's What'd I Say "Olivier"


















Marcato's Mess Around "Pinako"


















Marcato's Unchain My Heart "Riza" (formerly Sheska)


















Marcato's Lonely Avenue "Hughes"


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Beautiful puppies! They could give all of us puppy fever.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

They are getting so big! Beautiful pup! Like the names.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Beautiful pups!


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

They are gorgeous! And Riza and Maes have nice heads! They all do, really, but I'd love to see what those two looks like as adults. Great pups!

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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Oh Jackie, these pictures just make me smile. Thank you! They are gorgeous.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Lovely, lovely puppies! I don't know nearly enough to make an informed assessment, they ALL look beautiful to me.  Can't wait to see how they grow/develop --- please keep posting updates.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Took 8 week pics on Tuesday. They're ugly this week, but what can ya do?

Winry


















Maes


















Olivier


















Pinako


















Riza


















Hughes


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Mikasa and the littles
https://www.facebook.com/MarcatoGer...585864292764/1793578600960157/?type=3&theater


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

So cute they look like little Mikasa's! Spring is here!


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

SO cute! I think they are beautiful!! I can't believe they're 8 weeks already!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

So cute! They look so much like Mikasa!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Deb said:


> So cute! They look so much like Mikasa!


Well, they're half siblings 

Did make me excited for breeding Meepers next year, though. She's better with the littles (at this age) than her mother xD


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Puppies learned about gunfire yesterday
https://www.facebook.com/MarcatoGermanShepherds/videos/1795275637457120/


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