# Obedience Trial/Bitch In Heat Question



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Question to you more experienced OB folks.

I know under the rules, bitches in heat cannot participate in a trial.

Here is my dilemma.... There is a UKC obedience trial coming up at the end of March and I was planning to enter Raven for a UCD. The weekend is scheduled in such a way that there are enough trials and judges to earn the full title in one day, provided things go well. I planned to enter in all 4 trials, allowing for the 3 legs needed and 1 extra insurance leg.

Problem is, Raven is due in heat any time now. Which means if she doesn't get a move on and get it over with soon, she would be in heat during the trial and thus not allowed to participate. But the trial has a pre-entry deadline in 2 weeks, after which no entries will be accepted. And, I contacted the club hosting the trial to inquire about this, and was told that if I sent in entries to beat the deadline, and then she came into heat afterwards and couldn't trial, they would NOT refund my entry fees.

Is that normal for a club to not refund entry fees if the dog becomes ineligible due to a heat cycle? 

I'd really like to trial her that weekend as this is the only UKC obedience trial currently scheduled somewhere near me in 2010. But I'm not exactly thrilled with the idea of coughing up $100 in entry fees knowing there is a good possibility she may come into heat and I'll be out of luck.

They did tell me that if Raven came into heat I could substitute a different dog for her if I wanted to, but I'm not too keen on taking one of Tim's dogs into a venue that is new to both of us and trialing it, and he will be out of state that weekend so he couldn't take my place.

What would you do in this case?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have no advice as I have no intact females, but I do know people who have intact females and have never received refunds for females going into heat. I got a UKC refund once because I changed my mind about a show but this was before the pre-entry deadline and the secretary from the host club agreed to give me a refund, less the CC processing fee, and it was also a show that allowed DOS entries (no deadline, just a pre-entry discounted price). So, the only question I can answer is that yes, it is unfortunately typical that they don't offer refunds for bitches in heat, especially after the entry deadline.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not very helpful, but in AKC, the club in question can offer a refund for bitches in heat or not. I have often seen that they will offer a partial refund, but you need a vet confirmation I think. That costs as much as the entry fee anyway, or pretty much. 

So, I am not sure what to tell you. 

I have NEVER heard of subbing one dog for another on an AKC show. I mean you dog's name and numbers are there, to sub another they would have to make a change. I just have never heard of them doing that. 

I feel your pain though. Entries close on March 2 or 3 for a show at the end of March. I am working with Babsy, who has pulled a muscle, and may not be ready. She went into heat in November, so if her leg is ok, then she can show -- probably. Heidi who was due to whelp in the beginning of January but missed. She SHOULD go into heat in April, unless she is early. And the baby, Joy who is not ready yet, but is six months old NOW. in the end of March she MAY be having her first heat. 

I have two weeks to decide who to enter.

I really do love having bitches, BUT.... 

In August I showed Milla and Ninja days before their first birthday. My friends dog was going for his UD at the evening show (first day of a three day show). He was so interested in Milla. He went into the ring and saw her and just blew his owner off completely. 

I looked at Milla and thought NO WAY. There had been no blood. She had qualified that morning, and that evening, and I brought her the next day and got her title. The next day she went into heat. 

I heard that applying a bit of vanilla can mask the attractiveness....
Would that be considered cheating???


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Thanks for the feedback, ladies!
I just looked it up in the rulebook, and according to the official rules they have to give at least a 50% refund if I provide a vet certificate saying she came into heat after the entry deadline. So maybe the club representative who answers their emails isn't aware of that rule? :thinking:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They're probably aware of it, but people generally just take the loss of entries, because as Lies said, getting the certificate can cost just as much.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Don't ya just *LOVE* the "girls"??!!...and of course, *IF* you had a "breeding" possibly in the planned stage......she would be on a "slow boat to china"...no rush......ALL the time in the world!! YEP!....LOVE THE GIRLS!
Best of wishes.....hope you get the chance to trial!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yeah, girls are a trip. And Robin you are so right about how their evil little brains work. Can pretty much be guaranteed they'll come into heat at the most inconvenient time, whether it be early or late, especially if a breeding is planned!

Nice that in the other 2 venues we participate in, SchH and SDA, bitches in heat aren't an issue. You'll sometimes get dirty looks and a cold shoulder with a bitch in heat, but you get to trial. The no bitches in heat at rally and OB is sort of a pain in the butt.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Xeph said:


> They're probably aware of it, but people generally just take the loss of entries, because as Lies said, getting the certificate can cost just as much.


Well, I emailed the club a cut/paste copy of the language in the rules and will see what they say. Our vet probably wouldn't charge anything for the certificate. He'd just peek at her behind, say "yep, she's in heat, where to I sign?" and we'd be in and out in 5 minutes. If he did it would be a whopping $14 office call. So would definitely be worth it since that's a lot less than the entry fees.


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## sleachy (Aug 10, 2001)

From 
*XVIII. Rules applying to licensed obedience classes *
*I*
*1. Females in season.* No female in season may participate in an obedience trial. The host club has the option of refunding the entire entry fee or retaining up to 50% of the fee as a processing fee of any obedience trial competitor who provides a veterinarian’s certificate verifying that the female came into season after the closing date for entries. The certificate may be mailed, provided the postmark is no later than the date prior to the day of the trial, or delivered by hand to the Event Secretary before the published start time of the trial.


The host club "has the option" so no, they don't have to refund anything. Personally, I don't enter if I know my girl is coming in because I end up griping about the money I lost!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

They way I read it, they have the option to refund the *entire* entry fee OR retain up to 50% as a processing fee, implying they would then refund the rest. Am I interpreting that wrong? Sounds to me like they must refund at least 50%.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The article actually states that the club has the "option" to refund the *ENTIRE* entry fee, OR ...retaining UP TO 50% of the fee............
The club is *REQUIRED* to refund something........
That is what I am getting from the above posted paragraph.....


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Chris Wild said:


> Well, I emailed the club a cut/paste copy of the language in the rules and will see what they say. Our vet probably wouldn't charge anything for the certificate. He'd just peek at her behind, say "yep, she's in heat, where to I sign?" and we'd be in and out in 5 minutes. If he did it would be a whopping $14 office call. So would definitely be worth it since that's a lot less than the entry fees.


Chris 
I asked our Vet, & they said that they would not charge for a certificate.

But this does not help if they go into Heat in the middle of a Trial, like Little Ray did


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It does narrow your chances of losing it all though.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Thanks for the feedback guys, though it looks like Raven has made the decision for me. There's some vulva swelling today so she'll be in full blown heat very soon. Since even if she is technically out of heat by trial time she'd still be close enough to probably qualify as distracting, we'd better pass.  But at least I got a better understanding of the rules and how clubs interpret them for next time!


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## sleachy (Aug 10, 2001)

Chris Wild said:


> They way I read it, they have the option to refund the *entire* entry fee OR retain up to 50% as a processing fee, implying they would then refund the rest. Am I interpreting that wrong? Sounds to me like they must refund at least 50%.


I interpret it as if to say they have the option to refund (partial of full amount) or none at all...but I could be wrong!
I was also under the impression that if it said "no refunds for bitches in heat" in the premium, that was that.
Either way, did the club ever get back to you?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I read it the same way you do Chris. They have the option to refund the entire fee or may keep 50%. You either get it all back or half of it back but you get something back.

The UKC allows day of show entries but the club has the option to do pre-entry only.

No advice on what to do except say your prayers and do a rain dance and hope she gets it over with. But being a woman, she will stall because she can.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have an intact female haven't bred her...just started doing AKC again...if I entered a trial and the fees went to the club whats the big deal you are supporting a club...also while it may be more acceptable to take a female in heat to schutzhund training that is not always the case (we used to do schutzhund)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Holland, when you have multiple dogs, those 25-30$ entry fees add up. Usually you do not enter one class, usually the show is two or three days with 2 to 4 opportunities for title legs. 

Some of us do not have the faith of Job and we enter four times to ensure we get our three qualifying scores. This is 100 - 120 dollars, for one dog for one title. It adds up really quickly when you are titling more than one dog in more than one venue.

So trying to ensure that you are not losing your entry fees makes sense. 

It is always nice to support your local club with entries. But some of us would enter a different dog or not at all if the dog cannot compete.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have multiple dogs one is spayed...don't always receive a qualifying score either and haven't bred my dog either ...if you are breeding think you should be able to at least absorb the cost of a missed entry fee ...guess thats a little harsh on my part but oh well


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It's not a matter of not being able to afford to kiss off the entry fee. If someone can't afford the entry fee, they shouldn't be entering in the first place. It's not like there's a cash prize for getting a title. It's money gone either way.

It's a matter of not wanting to waste money and I don't see how it has anything to do with being a breeder. A breeder should be more willing to just throw away money because they're a breeder? :thinking:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Holland, it always amazes me how much people who do not breed think that breeders ought to pay for things. 

In good times, a missed entry fee is no big deal. I crappy times, I would rather see a breeder cutting corners on such things than on quality food, health screenings, etc. 

Just because you are breeding doesn't mean you should be throwing money down the drain. 

I boggles the mind....


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Back to the wording

"The host club has the option of refunding the entire entry fee or retaining up to 50% of the fee"

Sure is ambiguous - "has the option" doesn't say they must - & it doesn't say "either" "or" -- which would make it much more clear.

Might be a point to ask AKC for clarification.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

HEY! THIS breeder would love to have you throw some money away!!...feel free to throw as much as ya want Chris....to me!..hahahahaha!
I'm not too proud to beg!! ....joking guys!...just joking!
Have a great eve!
Robin


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the question is to the UKC, rather than the AKC?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have lost a few entry fees to AKC for in-heat dogs...and seen dogs just in or out of heat in the ob ring as well when peolple are not willing to lose the fee! My male - and every other male in the class- got a cheap thrill when a sheltie urinated in the ring at a BIG (6000 entry - 3 day show) AKC indoor convention center show....he was a bit out of control for a half a minute! Judge cut me a break and penalized him some points but did NOT DQ him! Ended up with 3rd and a leg - but let me tell you, I was really annoyed with the shelties owner! 

It is not just your entry bucks at stake when you have girls, but the other competitors too! I totally agree that it is the responsible thing to do to not enter if you think heat will be an issue - sheesh - reminds me, I need to get another leg on Csabre and finish that AKC CD!

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Now if only the same rule applied to conformation, lol! Nikon's last UKC show weekend he was in the ring (very small ring) directly behind a bitch in heat. First bitch in heat for a 15 month old dog :crazy:. Luckily the owner warned me and didn't bring her dog out until we were going into the ring, but still....


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