# My Breeder I Will Be Going To In 2 Years



## RileyMay (Aug 6, 2011)

I think I have chosen an awesome breeder! She breeds West German Showlines. I asked her questions, we're friends on FaceBook, and we're always talking! This is her website http://www.vomhaushuro.com/index.html

I'm completely in love with her dogs'!! She also has there hips, elbows, back, eyes, heart, and checked for DM too!! She answered everything, and my puppy will be coming from her for sure!!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I'm jealous that your breeder is on facebook. I'm actively trying to recruit my breeder onto facebook.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I think thats a great choice. But I may be a little Biased


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

It's very cool that you're researching this far out, but don't be surprised if you change your mind a couple of times between then and now.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah so you did decide to go with west german showlines! I enjoyed looking at the website.

Best wishes as you wait (for two whole years!) 




RileyMay said:


> I think I have chosen an awesome breeder! She breeds West German Showlines. I asked her questions, we're friends on FaceBook, and we're always talking! This is her website http://www.vomhaushuro.com/index.html
> 
> I'm completely in love with her dogs'!! She also has there hips, elbows, back, eyes, heart, and checked for DM too!! She answered everything, and my puppy will be coming from her for sure!!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I simply ADORE that particular breeders dogs. I have her on a short list of ONE breeder for whenever I'm ready for a puppy (not for a LONG LONG time, but it's fun to dream).


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

If I were getting a WGSL, Jen would be in my top 3 to purchase a dog from!


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## RileyMay (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep, I am glad that I have found her. She's a very nice person, and her dogs' are amazing!! She's also a very good breeder!! I am so excited that I found her! My friend David told me about her, and how she's an amazing dog trainer, so I added her. We then began to talk! She's amazingly smart about the breed, she titled her dogs' herself!! I can't wait to get my puppy, and 2 years is a very long wait!! It might even be a year!! I highly reccomend her!!


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

You are of course free to choose her but I personally would not stop looking at others.


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## RileyMay (Aug 6, 2011)

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> You are of course free to choose her but I personally would not stop looking at others.


 

I'm going to look at others, but I personally like her a lot.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Beautiful dogs!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think she has great looking dogs! And I am a working line guy!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Beautiful dogs! I love WGSLs!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

robk said:


> I think she has great looking dogs! And I am a working line guy!


The REALLY cool thing is: her dogs don't just look pretty, they also can WORK, right Maris?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> The REALLY cool thing is: her dogs don't just look pretty, they also can WORK, right Maris?


That they can! I wouldn't have the dogs I have if they didn't work. I've seen her stud male earn his SchH1 and will be soon seeing his SchH2. 
Even though she is a small kennel I am so proud to be a part of it. She works and trains all of her dogs herself so she knows exactly what every dog is bringing to the table. her stud is HOT. And now she has a dog out of her own breeding, actually a litter-mate to my male that she is doing BHOT with. He got his BH about a month ago. 



































and thats not all. Her stud has sired two litters for Leader Dogs for the blind, an organization that breeds Seeing eye dogs and trains them. Havocs litter-mate brother is a seizure alert dog for Seizure Alert Dogs For Life, Inc. Mayhems sister is currently in foundation training and will also become a seizure alert dog. 
Not to mention the self trained Service Dogs from clients. Havoc has also shown great potential for herding. These are fantastic dogs that have a really open temperament for many different venues of work. To me they are a perfect example of what the breed should be. They have the structure and the working ability combined.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Gorgeous dogs! I too am more the working line fan, but if I was looking at showlines, I think she would have to be on my list from this!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I met her once at a dog show in Ohio - very nice looking dogs! And she was a very nice and friendly person who knew alot about her dogs. From having met her in person I think you have selected well!


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

I suggest anyone wishing to buy a pup, do an internet research first. Even a search on this breeder, on this forum, will provide all the information you need.

I personally would not buy. It is not rumored information, but court fact. If you buy a puppy, you are tied to that breeder for the life of the dog no matter what in this breed. You want to select as careful as you can about the person the breeder is as much as the dogs they have available. Even if someone is shopping a pup from a breeder that is not this one. You really need to background google them. I am not talking about listening to rumors by jealous or hurtful people but do use court, police, and animal control information.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think some advice is excessive and I also don't think a breeder has to be associated with an owner for life....rubbish! There are perspective owners out there I wouldn't sell a dog to because they are too demanding and usually clueless. Furthermore, I can't account for what someone does after they acquire the dog. Sorry folks just reality!!


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

Here in the states most are sold with a contract. If you have a business contract for the dog, yes you have a connection to the breeder for the dogs life.

***Post edited by Admin. This is starting to cross the line of what is not allowed on this forum and needs to be discussed privately.***


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Here in the states most are sold with a contract. If you have a business contract for the dog, yes you have a connection to the breeder for the dogs life.


Cliffson lives in the United States...


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

On German Shepherd forums one never knows, Thank you. Most of the world does not sell German shepherds with contracts so I wanted to clarify why you are dealing with breeder here for the life of the dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Personally I don't think internet research is really research-nor do I feel the need to contact the FBI for a clearance before I buy a dog. Think it is really easy to just trash people on the internet. I would go visit and trust my gut and if I make a mistake its a learning process-oh and I would decide for myself what is important to me-


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Here in the states most are sold with a contract.


Actually here in the states most dogs are sold on Craigslist, on the side of the road, or out of the newspaper for a low "no questions asked" price and the breeder and the buyer never see nor speak to each other again. Tell somebody you bought a dog with an agreement or contract and that you paid more than a couple hundred dollars and they'll look at you like you're crazy.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

I'd be honored to have one of her dogs. I can say with absolute certainty that if I ever get another GSD, it will be from this kennel. 
Anyone researching this breeder only needs to look at the history of these wonderful dogs along with their accomplishments. In the end, that's all that matters.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

Each is allowed their opinion. ** removed by Admin**


I do not know about you but I research things before I buy even my new stove. Do you never read up on a car before deciding to buy? I only research creditable resources as well. 

** removed by Admin**


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

** Quote removed by Admin**

Gosh, and I'm certain the press has NEVER gotten anything wrong. They ALWAYS tell the WHOLE STORY and never embellish, publish heresay, or sway a story a certain way to make it more interesting. Not OUR press. NEVER. 

*pauses a moment to stop laughing*

And I'm sure our legal system hasn't ever gotten anything wrong, either. Nobody's ever been sent to jail for a crime they didn't commit, nobody's ever been accused of something they didn't do. Oh, and everybody's perfect, and nobody makes mistakes.

'nuff said about that, I think!

Seriously, though, there are a lot of factors I take into consideration when looking at a breeder. I am very pro-rescue and all of my dogs thus far have been from shelter/rescue. When I talk about buying a purebred pup, it's serious business, and A LOT of thought goes into it for me. Moral character is high on my list of things to consider in a breeder. I know all the facts, I know all the rumors, I've seen all the stories. Jen is at the TOP of my list of breeders. PERIOD.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Gosh, and I'm certain the press has NEVER gotten anything wrong. They ALWAYS tell the WHOLE STORY and never embellish, publish heresay, or sway a story a certain way to make it more interesting. Not OUR press. NEVER.
> 
> *pauses a moment to stop laughing*
> 
> ...


Well said! :thumbup:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I'd buy from her in a heartbeat, and I've no personal ties to her at all. And yes, I've read what you're speaking about. Crap happens. It's terrible what happened, but my opinion of her and her dogs hasn't changed.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I fully admit to "knowing" Linda, Maris, and Jen from another board and from Facebook. Do I consider them friends? Absolutely.

I do not know any of the other posters on this thread, unless I simply do not recognize their usernames here. 

I did my own research, used my own judgment, and made up my own mind. No "smoke screening" or following the leader... just standing up for what *I* believe. Better than carrying a personal vendetta for years and years, wouldn't you say?

Posting or not posting the links doesn't matter. As has been said, the stories are out there for all to find. As has also been said, the internet and the media do not always hold absolute truth (and, frankly, I would go so far as to say they RARELY hold absolute truth).


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Humans make mistakes, even the best of us. I agree with Cliffson that hiring a private investigator to do research on a breeder is excessive. But even those interested in doing so would easily find no charges against this breeder for something like animal abuse. 

When considering a breeder, in my personal opinion I agree with Rott-N-GSDS: Moral character is of utmost importance to me. 
Second comes the contract, the support, and the knowledge. Without those things, even if you get a great dog, where are you then? Next comes the health of the animals involved. Are the animals health tested? What is the history and what have previously related dogs from this kennel been diagnosed with, or died from?

For an average pet owner, knowing the health of your animals ancesters is of great importance. Making sure my dog lives past the age of three without terrible digestive issues, cancer, hip dysplasia, Degenerative Myelopathy etc. is very important. 

Next comes the importance of working ability. I take great pride in not only knowing, but witnessing my dogs ancestors acheive their titles through respectable and truthful means. There are quite a few people in this world who simply title their dogs to breed. They will even take it to extremes and paper title their animals. Meaning those pretty little letters next to their dogs names are paid for and undeserving. 
Someone so willing to lie and fake information on their animal is ruining the breed. So I personally take it very seriously when I purchase a dog, in looking for real titles.

So in a nutshell for those interested in this breeder, coming from an extremely picky person about her dogs. Know this: These dogs are being titled by one person. She is taking the time to train her animals HOT. She is even training and titling a dog of her own breeding now. Which says something about the dogs she is producing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> I think some advice is excessive and I also don't think a breeder has to be associated with an owner for life....rubbish! There are perspective owners out there I wouldn't sell a dog to because they are too demanding and usually clueless. Furthermore, I can't account for what someone does after they acquire the dog. Sorry folks just reality!!


Amen! I've had to skip over some breeders with some really nice (IMO) dogs because the terms were just too...clingy (for lack of a better word). I won't buy a dog that comes with all these obligations to jump through hoops. Just sell me a dog that is healthy at the time of the sale and comes with full registration and that is all I want, I don't need all these "warranties" and "guarantees" and "if....then" statements. What's yours is yours and what's mine is mine.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

lol I refuse to buy dogs with contracts personally. I use the puppies are a crap shoot philosophy. I import most of my dogs and do not buy into the guarantee sales gimick. If I want a dog that will turn out a certain way I buy them grown or at least old enough that I see the dog is maturing that way or you take a chance on a puppy. America is America and they like safety net be it a real one or that shark netting va beach tells tourists exists lmao


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions regarding the looks they apreciate and enjoy in a dog. If people like her dogs, then she must be doing something right. Just because a kennel is young and up-coming doesn't mean their lack of titles or show ratings should be a mark against them. All of the puppies in show and working homes are all actively working towards such and are acheiving those things as time, money, and age permit such. 


** comments removed by Admin**


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Let me tell you what a wonderful person I think Jen is. She isn't my breeder, and I have never met her in person. But when I need advice she has always stepped up to the plate and given it. And it's always been spot on.

She has a wealth of knowledge about this breed that is invaluable despite whatever happened in her past. She bends over backwards to help anyone because of her love of the breed. 
I'm not banding together with anyone to defend her. I speak for myself. I am merely stating the relationship I have with her. 
The old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" applies here!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

don't know her at all, but looked at her website, and looks like 1. beautiful dogs, 2. producing dogs that are out there doing something 3. SHE is doing something with her dogs 
and 4th, I see more "positive" stuff from posters who 'know' her than I see negative

So with that to the OP, glad you found someone you like and I say go for it


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## Dylan (May 13, 2011)

Ironic that those who critisize other breeders and dog owners the most are those who have never trained or titled a GSD in their entire lifetime.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

I have titled, trained, and trained others how to train and title their dogs. You?


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

The moral of the story is, the OP has picked a breeder and is just sharing the joy of a future puppy. She isn't asking for advice or opinions. If somewhere were doing a breeder search, they could find all of the relevant information with a quick google or forum search. If they are so lazy as to stop in one thread and form an opinion, then the fault is theirs. 

As a fellow future GSD owner, I can understand the anticipation and the need to share. It's GREAT that the OP has something to share. And it's even better because its in line with what the forum generally preaches. At a glance, this is a breeder who does something, a long thorough research process, etc. So let's not rain on the OP's parade.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

No rain on the op parade. I have been in touch with her privately before anything else was posted here publicly. She has no issues with me, nor me her. I am glad she is doing homework and excited and planning out responsible gsd ownership.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> No rain on the op parade. I have been in touch with her privately before anything else was posted here publicly. She has no issues with me, nor me her. I am glad she is doing homework and excited and planning out responsible gsd ownership.


I didn't mean to point out you specifically either. Thank you for taking it so well. 

It's just a lot of times I come into joyous threads not really asking for advice, and see pages upon pages of unsolicited negativity. 

So, glad this is going back to joyous sharing post.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

Congratulations in doing your research and knowing what you are looking for in your GSD and your breeder! Not too many people can be so fortunate. Jen has probably already given you some of my info if you wanted to talk, so I figured I would come here and introduce myself as well. I'm Gabrielle, and I own Discoe vom haus Huro.





































This little girl has been everything I dream of in a GSD. Everything I've wanted, ever since the German Shepherd bug bit me when I was around 8 years old. Ready and willing, she's up for anything and everything, anytime. And not to mention one of the most hilarious dogs I've ever had the pleasure of spending time with. From the show ring to the obedience ring to Schutzhund practice to back home to say hello to the neighborhood children, she's at home wherever we are together. We've trained together and worked hard alongside Jen as well as on our own to obtain her BH and AD at 18 months of age, and continue to work hard today, next aiming to finish the final leg of her AKC CD. One couldn't ask for a more well-adjusted, healthy and model dog and I look forward to a great many more years and adventures with my best and most entertaining (not to mention interesting) copilot. 

Vom haus Huro isn't just a kennel. We're a community. We keep in touch with one another, and those of us who are close enough get together to train at least one or two days a week. We share our knowledge and help one another, will swap photos anytime of day, be it 12 noon or 12 midnight. We plan together, support one another, travel to shows and trials together (whether they're across the state or across the country!), compete alongside and against one another, and celebrate good times with each other and our dogs with good food, much loudness and furiously entertaining photo ops. I guess it's an understatement to say that we have a good time while taking care of business.


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## Dylan (May 13, 2011)

Kudos to Jen for testing for DM too. There is no excuse for any GSD breeder to not use this test.


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## Elana55 (Jun 27, 2009)

I looked at the site and find the dogs lacking in titles (for WGSL). One Female is a SchH1 and one male is a SchH 1. I see the current litter advertised is by a titled male (not theirs) and I looked at the information on the female Int ch.... International All Breed Canine Association? Most of the titles given are low end titles.. Novice A and B (AKC?) and a lot of CGC's a couple of BH's.. TDI's and so forth.. SG (cannot get a V rating.. or German championship rating under the German system without an HGH or SchH1 title). Can only title up to SG (very good)... I dunno.. looks like nice folks and all but a bit shy on titles. 

I probably would not go to this kennel until the had some SV Breed Surveyed dogs in their breeding line up and some V ratings. 

One of the weaknesses in the WGSL dog is the lack of work ethic and nerve. Not saying these dogs lack either.. just saying the titles don't support them having it. 

Of course, they may be on the right path going outside to stud dogs... but their females need to be stronger I think. 

Breeding dogs is very difficult. Lots and Lots of very very well bred dogs out there for sale.. lots and lots of very good dogs out there for sale (well bred and good do not always go hand in hand).


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think that the dog pictured above is a nice looking dog-the statement that WGSL lack work ethic is a generalization I have definitely seen nice show lines that did not lack a work ethic-would definitely buy an SG dog-but thats just me-and whatever title is on a dog someone spent the time doing it -think it is unfortunate that people refer to titles as low end titles


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Hard to garner all those titles when you're only one person, don't keep tons of dogs, and have limited funds.

I'd say the kennel owner is doing well, considering her dogs are (B)HOT and she's got pups she's sold in training for SAR or service dog work.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

holland said:


> I think that the dog pictured above is a nice looking dog-the statement that WGSL lack work ethic is a generalization I have definitely seen nice show lines that did not lack a work ethic-would definitely buy an SG dog-but thats just me-and whatever title is on a dog someone spent the time doing it -think it is unfortunate that people refer to titles as low end titles


I agree I think its very unfortunate for someone to dumb down the work someone spent on their dog calling it a low end title. 

Some of the females listed on that site are still young (some even too young to even earn a title) and being trained towards their titles. they are coming by their titles honestly and that takes time. Just because they haven't earned a few things yet does not mean they aren't being worked towards. 

I also agree that WGSL lacking in work is a generalization. Just because you run into a few lines who are poor examples doesn't mean the whole lot of them are terrible. Even then, a very nice dog could end up in a home who takes part in very poor training which can make any dog from any lines look terrible in work.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I probably would not go to this kennel until the had some SV Breed Surveyed dogs in their breeding line up and some V ratings.


How do new kennels get off the ground if people won't buy, JUST because the dogs haven't had the opportunity to be titled higher yet (partially because of age)?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yet there are many that manage to do this. They just waited. Too many like to put the cart before the horse. It definitely would be a whole lot easier.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

BTW, I am responding to Jackie's post and not making any comments about this breeder. I don't know them or their dogs.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> BTW, I am responding to Jackie's post and not making any comments about this breeder. I don't know them or their dogs.


I know my name is in my signature, but I was so confused at first, lol. So used to being Xeph 



> Yet there are many that manage to do this. They just waited.


Or they rushed their dogs through the titling process :-/

I've finally hit the point where I do question the titles at times, after seeing dogs on video and wondering how they got "x".

And yes, that does include my own dogs.

Mirada got her last RN leg on a technicality, and I really don't feel like we earned it, honestly.


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## Elana55 (Jun 27, 2009)

Xeph said:


> How do new kennels get off the ground if people won't buy, JUST because the dogs haven't had the opportunity to be titled higher yet (partially because of age)?


By waiting until they do get titles and so forth. By not breeding until those titles have been achieved. By breeding always with improvment in mind in all areas that this breed is supposed to represent (structure, temperament, nerve, courage, biddability, stamina and so forth). IMO if you care about the breed you wait.... 

There are a lot of very very nice dogs out of very well titled parents for sale. The person lacking titles and breeding dogs is competing for the buyer's dollar.. and if the buyer can buy a dog for a little more from titled parents then they probably will (the economic principal of substitution).

IOW's there is no need to go to a kennel and buy a dog out of untitled parents because there are so many good dogs out there from titled parents. 

It does not mean the dogs are not good... it is just the competition for the buyer's dollar is very stiff. A CGC is NOT a big title to get (I like that they are getting it). Neither is a CD or a BH (I prefer a BH because it is about temperament and obedience unlike the CD). An SG is nice. A V says MUCH MORE because it means the dog has titled... and even then you want to peel that back and look at the dog's work. Yes.. there IS a lot to this but it is worth it to do!

Yes. There are certainly SL GSD's with work ethic. If you are going to those lines it is even more important to not only have titles but see the dogs work (even if in video). 

If the dogs are too young to have their titles then they are too young to be producing puppies. JMO.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> By waiting until they do get titles and so forth. By not breeding until those titles have been achieved. By breeding always with improvment in mind in all areas that this breed is supposed to represent (structure, temperament, nerve, courage, biddability, stamina and so forth). IMO if you care about the breed you wait....
> 
> There are a lot of very very nice dogs out of very well titled parents for sale. The person lacking titles and breeding dogs is competing for the buyer's dollar.. and if the buyer can buy a dog for a little more from titled parents then they probably will (the economic principal of substitution).
> 
> IOW's there is no need to go to a kennel and buy a dog out of untitled parents because there are so many good dogs out there from titled parents.


Well here is where I am a little confused. Since you have a lovely female who placed SG13 in the 12-18 month females class at NASS, I will use her as an example. 
Your female, while coming from a popular well known male, comes from an untitled female with only an SG rating. You were able to discern that despite the lack of a V rating, a title higher than a BH, and a breed survey, you still felt the mother was of good enough potential to purchase a dog out of. 
So since you have the ability to decipher a dogs worth despite its lack of documented work, then why can't anyone else do the same?

You speak about this "competing for buyers dollar" if one doesn't have titles on a dog, and how its unnecessary to buy from untitled stock. But my question is what changed for you when you bought your dog? I'm curious why you felt it was important to point out these things in the breeder with the information provided on the website, while you have done the very thing you are advising others not to do. 
I am genuinely curious what the difference is between your purchase choice, compared to a choice of someone going to this kennel for a dog. 




Elana55 said:


> It does not mean the dogs are not good... it is just the competition for the buyer's dollar is very stiff. A CGC is NOT a big title to get (I like that they are getting it). Neither is a CD or a BH (I prefer a BH because it is about temperament and obedience unlike the CD).


See to me, I think a CD is just as valuable as a BH. Why? Because in order to get a CD you have to trial under 3 different judges. After three times theres no mistake the dog barely passed, under three different judges, three different times your dog passed because it actually can do it. 



Elana55 said:


> An SG is nice. A V says MUCH MORE because it means the dog has titled... and even then you want to peel that back and look at the dog's work. Yes.. there IS a lot to this but it is worth it to do!


You are right, a V does say much more about a dog. Two of the three breeding stock at this kennel have a title and have a V rating. The third is on its way to earning both, while the other two are still continuing their training towards more titles. 




Elana55 said:


> Yes. There are certainly SL GSD's with work ethic. If you are going to those lines it is even more important to not only have titles but see the dogs work (even if in video).
> 
> If the dogs are too young to have their titles then they are too young to be producing puppies. JMO.


Agreed, if a dog is too young to have a title its too young to breed. Thankfully this breeder has no history of breeding a dog under aged. Just because she is proud of dogs she has bred and is considering towards a breeding program so she added them onto her website, doesn't mean she is actively breeding those animals.


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## Elana55 (Jun 27, 2009)

Believe me when I say this.. I question every day the fact that my own dog came from a female w/o a title. I bought her because I was considering breeding and her breeder is <gasp>L honest and has a track record and will mentor me. 

I am now working on a title on my own dog. She needs that title and I have outlined why. 

I am NOT saying that all titled dogs are good.. I know about midnight trials and so forth.. but IF you want to do this and play by the "rules" you title you females and your males b4 breeding. 

IOW's it is about the breed. My dog has not been bred. She may not BE bred (pending health tests and titles). I love her to death.. she believes I make the sun come up in the morning (hey.. no one else does! LOL). I would love a puppy from her for that reason and no other.. but it is not enough of a reason to breed her. 

I bred horses for a few years.. and you could do this because a horse has an 11 month gestation to produce ONE foal.. and you can decide to keep the foal or sell.. or let the foal grow up some train and sell.. or simply keep, train and use or show or trial the foal. You get ONE offspring. 

Dogs, OTOH, produce 4 puppies.. 6 puppies.. 10 puppies.. and so on. You want one for YOU but what do you do with the others????? Titled parents help to offset the costs (higher puppy prices and more buyers) and titled parents mean you cared enough about the breed to TRY to bring forward the traits that make the GSD what it is supposed to be.. Von Stephanitz and so forth. 

Do not think for an instant I do not think of this. And thinking of this I have a pretty darn high standard. 

Does not mean you don't. Just stating what my opinion is. No one need agree.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Titled parents help to offset the costs (higher puppy prices and more buyers) and titled parents mean you cared enough about the breed to TRY to bring forward the traits that make the GSD what it is supposed to be.. Von Stephanitz and so forth. "

I agree with this to an extent. I just do not believe that only titled dogs: a) posses the traits that make a GSD what it should be and b) that only titled dogs can pass on their traits to puppies. A female has the same eggs and a male has the same sperm regardless of what letters precede or follow their names. I am not advocating completely untitled breedings, I am merely pointing out that the magical reproduction fairy doesn't transport down after every title and upgrade your dogs reproductive capabilities.

What I don't understand is the following, hypothetical scenario:

Female A is owned by a large kennel, is sent to Germany at the age of 22 months after placing well at a Sieger Show and returns 3 months later SchH2, kkl1, V rated. The following year the dog fails the bitework at the Sieger show. She falls off of the sleeve at the first stick hit, does not stay and guard and is captured by someone at the edge of the field as she attempts to vacate it sans handler. Did the owner know the dog would do this? Hopefully not, because I always feel embarrassed for them, but they didn't spend the time training the dog so how would they know how it is going to react?

Female B is owned by a small kennel, is acquired at the age of 2 years and time is spent repairing former bad training while building toward new training. The female is health tested and SG1 rated in both youth and adult, untitled classes. This female is brought to a club before a show and worked on a new field, by new helpers in a simulated breed survey. Her grips are full and calm, she outs cleanly and guards convincingly. Did the dogs owner know she would work well? Probably, because they spent a lot of time with the dog and invested time in its training.

Now, two extremes, I know. Especially since there are situations where the traits the two dogs exhibit could easily be switched. Ideally you could find Female B with Female A's credentials. But, to me, since I have seen these both in person, you will not convince me that Female A will pass on the traits that I want and that Female B will not, simply because of a title or a lack of one. I look at the dog in front of me, not at what surrounds that dogs name. Because the letters that precede the dog onto the field and follow it off, are not always what they appear to be. I prefer to see the dogs in person, see them worked on a strange field by strange helpers and make my own evaluations and opinion based on wht I see myself. This goes for both titled and untitled dogs.

I think we have reached a point where we agree to disagree, because everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is obvious that we can keep restating ours over and over again and this could go on for eternity. lol. Since we both have dogs to title, we could use this time on the training field instead of behind the keyboard 

"make the GSD what it is supposed to be.. Von Stephanitz and so forth."

I am SO glad you brought this up because I have been doing a lot of looking back on dogs of years past and I have been wanting to make a topic about this for SO long and was just waiting for anyone to show any interest in a similar discussion. I'll be posting a new topic called "Von Stephanitz GSD", once I get a few more details. Please join me there, I would love to have your input and see what you think about what I have been working on.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

You know, I have had my differences with Jen. My opinion differs on some things that she has done in the past breeding wise, but that's all it is, MY opinion. 

I feel that she has nice dogs that can work as has been shown by the amount of progeny she has working in some sort of venue. I know she does a good amount of health testing and also works her own dogs. 

Too many breeders out there are buying titled stock, VERY few comparitively are BHOT or even HOT dogs. IMHO it is a whole different ballgame having a HOT or BHOT dog. That in itself to me is a big accomplishment. 

Everyone has something they don't like about a certain breeder, it's the nature of the game. That said, those people that can look at the breeders objectively and evaluate them have a much better chance at finding EXACTLY the right breeder for them. All breeders have good and bad points they just differ person to person. You can't please everyone. 

This coming from someone who has gotten into it with Jen online and who previously bad mouthed her and her dogs. I'm not a WGSL fan at all, but I like the way most of her dogs look and work. I've never met her in person and have no vested interest in this as I don't have a dog from her nor do I ever plan to even own a WGSL. I just think it's sad that some people can't look past the BS and see that there is more to breeders than what people see. Just saying.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Marshies......I really respect the post you made....*kudos*.
SEE....this is why....1 month, 3months..etc months......I would say "yes" to you.


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## Dylan (May 13, 2011)

Interesting discussion, not sure there is a firm right or wrong as far as the value of titles. I myself am more impressed with dogs that are HOT/BHOT titled rather than those who get their titles professionally handled. However, many dogs that are sent off for titling are very good dogs.There are many breeders who don't have the time or the talent to train their own dog. I certainly wouldn't reject dogs like Quenn or Zamp only because they were titled in Germany.

For me it comes down to what I'd want the dog for. If I'm looking for a dog to breed, then I would be insisting on a dog from titled parents, preferably Sch3's/HGH. I'd want the parents to also have minimum health clearances - hip, elbows, DM, thyroid. 

If I were looking for a companion dog, health clearances and temperament would trump all else and titles would be less important.

Like begets like.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> You know, I have had my differences with Jen. My opinion differs on some things that she has done in the past breeding wise, but that's all it is, MY opinion.
> 
> I feel that she has nice dogs that can work as has been shown by the amount of progeny she has working in some sort of venue. I know she does a good amount of health testing and also works her own dogs.
> 
> ...


Courtney that definitely means a lot coming from you! Thank you for that great respectable post! 



robinhuerta said:


> Marshies......I really respect the post you made....*kudos*.
> SEE....this is why....1 month, 3months..etc months......I would say "yes" to you.


Just curious, who is Marshies? LOL is that a nick name?


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

VonKromeHaus said:


> You know, I have had my differences with Jen. My opinion differs on some things that she has done in the past breeding wise, but that's all it is, MY opinion.
> 
> I feel that she has nice dogs that can work as has been shown by the amount of progeny she has working in some sort of venue. I know she does a good amount of health testing and also works her own dogs.
> 
> ...





4TheDawgies said:


> Courtney that definitely means a lot coming from you! Thank you for that great respectable post!


Was going to say the same thing, I remember reading the posts from a few years ago... a really great statement from Courtney, devoid of the pettiness of internet drama. :thumbup:


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Marshies is a member on this forum...it's her "forum name".
She made a good post a page ago......I have spoken to her a couple of times, and I like the type of person that she is!
She is someone that I would consider a great home for one of my pups...that's all.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks guys. Sometimes people grow and learn things from past mistakes and transgressions against people. When it comes down to it, in my eyes, a good breeder is a good breeder no matter who the person is or the past I've had with them!


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Marshies is a member on this forum...it's her "forum name".
> She made a good post a page ago......I have spoken to her a couple of times, and I like the type of person that she is!
> She is someone that I would consider a great home for one of my pups...that's all.


ohhhh ok I went back and looked my apologies LOL


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