# Establishing dominance, really?



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

_Ok, I know that GSDs are herders, not a livestock guardian breed like a Great Pyrenees. That the dog is bred to work alone, without humans, and to live with the flock 24/7.
That said, is this REALLY the recommended training method?

I'm trying to picture what would happen if you took a working line GSD, even a pup, alpha rolled him and put your face into his and growled. Does your basic health insurance cover cosmetic surgery?

__LGD SEMINAR
----------------
If you don’t own at least one goat or sheep that will teach the pup manners, buy one; it’s worth it if you can find one. If you’re not able to do that, guess who wins big in the motherly discipline department. The time to learn about disciplining a pup is before it arrives. Prepare yourself to spend some time with the pup and teach yourself about a puppy’s concept of discipline. If you can manage to visit a newly whelped litter of about four weeks or older, watch what happens when a pup runs afoul of its mother. The pup screams and cries like death itself is about to visit. *Momma growls, snarls, and puts her pup on its back and her mouth on its throat. It doesn’t last long but it is a very effective method to teach pups not to do certain behaviors. You really don’t need to act like you’re going to rip the pup’s throat out with your teeth but the growling and snarling is good. Putting the pup on its back affirms that you’re the boss and putting your hand lightly on its throat will serve that same purpose as teeth. Make sure this only lasts a few seconds, until the pup acknowledges the correction. Please understand we’re talking about young pups only. * Most pups will submit easily but any dog, even a young pup, has the potential to contest a claim of the alpha position. If you claim it with an older dog, you’d better be prepared to prove it in no uncertain terms or you may very well have an uncontrollable dog that will need to find an alpha human if it is to lead a productive life around humans._


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

To be fair, it does work sorta... Well atleast it did when I had to. The husky in my signature was a rescue. And he was a real problem. 

We rescued him from a neglectful and abusive home. He did not like people, he did not listen, he was a resource guarder... You name it.

One morning I woke up and came out to say good morning, and he decided I was too close to one of his toys and he lashed out and bit my face. I still have a scar on my nose from it.

While he was attached to my face, I had to put him in a choke hold and proceeded to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with him. Believe me, after that, pack order was clearly defined. 

He turned into a great dog. He just needed to know that someone bigger and meaner than him was in charge, and he settled down... 

...Then I went to the hospital and got stitches

Anyway, point being is that some rare dogs do need a good ass kicking to settle in and behave. I've never had to do it again, and I certainly did not start the confrontation. But I did finish it, and sometimes that is what it takes to give a dog a chance to learn to be good...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well that is an "emergency situation" where you have to react.

The article in question is saying to take a perfectly calm puppy and growl and snarl in its face.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the people writing this article know more about Guardian dogs than I do, so I would feel out of place commenting on the techniques they use.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Some of the guardian breeds get very serious about their jobs.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well, the person who referred me to the article (not the writer, but a person who attended the seminar) advocates this for all dogs.

This isn't a popular thing among all trainers of LGDs either, with several people telling her that it was basically a stupid thing to do and a good way to get seriously injured. From what I've been told, LGDs aren't "aggressive" but are bred to be defensive and react to danger.
So why would you take a dog that is bred to defend with its life and put it into what it feels might be a life threatening situation?
From what I was told, the idea was that you instill this massive fear into the young pups so that they will be respectful of the person who did it for their entire life.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I think the people writing this article know more about Guardian dogs than I do, so I would feel out of place commenting on the techniques they use.


:thumbup: I had to use this method when my dog was a puppy. He was extremely dominant and aggressive. It was very effective. Not every dog needs this but most people have never dealt with such a dog that exhibits these behaviors so they have no idea what it takes to correct and redirect this behavior.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Again, I don't know enough about the breed to question someone that is in the breed.(breed meaning LGD) If its like anything else in dog training, there are many ways to achieve the same results; just depends on your expertise and the right dog. Its like traini9ng with compulsion, some abhor it and others maintain it....either way will work with right person and right dog.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I believe these methods can work for some dogs, while turning others into a wreck. I know if I tried this with Ozzy, it'd break his heart and he'd probably be depressed all the time. Positive reinforcement works just fine with him.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

"Alpha" rolling any dog is recipe for you getting bitten in the face. It simply makes you look like an unstable bully to your dog. There is no scientific proof that this is effective, other than it will terrify your dog. It is very sad that this old school stuff is still being passed around. :-/


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I've met a few dogs that would seriously hurt somebody if they didn't have someone handling them that knew how to seriously establish dominance over their dog. Almost all dogs don't NEED or deserve that type of handling, but the select few that do would otherwise need to be euthanized, in my opinion.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

Shaina said:


> I've met a few dogs that would seriously hurt somebody if they didn't have someone handling them that knew how to seriously establish dominance over their dog. Almost all dogs don't NEED or deserve that type of handling, but the select few that do would otherwise need to be euthanized, in my opinion.


Using force to "handle" those dogs that are deemed dangerous and/or unruly does not make them anymore safe to the public. It makes the dog even more unpredictable because it has learned that humans=pain. Dogs don't think in dominance terms like we have thought in the past. 

This is a good article on alpha rolling and the dominance myth:

Alpha Dog Theory - Debunking the dominance theory, alpha dog myth, pack leader


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I wasn't referring to a dog that would be brought out to a public place to meet people. I'm talking about a dog that is already on the serious side of aggression that needs to be MANAGED in order to live a normal life (normal being with a trainer who knows what he is doing and is not dumb enough to believe that a dog with such high aggression can ever be "cured" of such). Also, I was not supporting alpha rolls - just tough physical corrections. If a dog is truly genetically aggressive it must be managed safely for both the handler and the dog. I don't believe many people are capable of doing such.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have NEVER seen a dam treat her pups at four weeks old the way that is suggested here. I have never seen them snarl, put them on their back, growl at them at all. My dams are incredibly tolerant with puppies and are very easy going with them. Maybe different breeds are different, but my dogs generally have a puppy license until they are closer to five months old. And at that point, the dam may grumble, but never puts the pup on its back. 

Usually if a youngster because obnoxious, the bitch will leap over a small fence and leave the whelps alone for a while.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

lar07 said:


> "Alpha" rolling any dog is recipe for you getting bitten in the face. It simply makes you look like an unstable bully to your dog. There is no scientific proof that this is effective, other than it will terrify your dog. It is very sad that this old school stuff is still being passed around. :-/


True about the scientific evidence - there is no true "scientific" evidence about the great majority of THeory about dog learning and behavior!

BTW, that is what makes it so interesting! Sort of like child raising!

I.E. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" and such.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

lar07 said:


> Using force to "handle" those dogs that are deemed dangerous and/or unruly does not make them anymore safe to the public. *It makes the dog even more unpredictable because it has learned that humans=pain.* Dogs don't think in dominance terms like we have thought in the past.
> 
> This is a good article on alpha rolling and the dominance myth:
> 
> Alpha Dog Theory - Debunking the dominance theory, alpha dog myth, pack leader


 
*Maybe it actually learned that it better not bite humans?*

*Or if the human didn't react except to go away or maybe give the dog a treat or a toy, it learned that if it growls and/or bites then good things will happen to it?*


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

codmaster said:


> True about the scientific evidence - there is no true "scientific" evidence about the great majority of THeory about dog learning and behavior!
> 
> BTW, that is what makes it so interesting! Sort of like child raising!
> 
> I.E. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" and such.


again, though, the method isn't saying to do this to punish a mis-deed. The idea is that you do this a couple times a day "just in case".

Saying "oh, my kid is just sitting there watching TV right now. I'm going to go spank him so he doesn't decide to misbehave 3 years from now" would be a better analogy.

I know that sometimes an alpha roll will work. I've done it myself before - more of a flying tackle the dog to the ground, but the same idea. But to take a dog that isn't doing anything and put them on the ground and growl and bark in their face just doesn't make sense.
If it was even in response to a misbehavior, I can see the idea behind the theory. But, what do you accomplish by making it a part of everyday training from the time a pup is a few weeks old?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You have to determine the root cause of the dog being too aggressive to decide what approach to use to "fix" the issue. The reasons can range from genetic, health, to environment(people allowing the dog to assume the alpha role). Any one method of approach to these issues doesn't work effectively in all the scenarios. I am called in many times to deal with aggressive dogs, my approach varies as much as my training techniques depending on the dog and the reason for the dog's aggression. There are sometimes a need for all positive, and sometimes a need for setting the pecking order in place. Dogs don't agree to reversing pecking orders by positive. That is asinine. Sometimes submission must be brought around in similar fashion as to maintaining pack order. Each case is different and requires a different approach, those that have limited tools in their training chest will have limited success.JMO


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

The alpha roll doesn't cause the dog any pain whatsoever. I used it for my GS and it was very effective. He would have been PTS by now because he didn't hesitate to bite before we were trained in using this technique with him. After this training he doesn't bite us anymore, and I believe he will never have to be put to sleep for aggression. My lab on the other hand, has never needed to be trained in this manner. I would probably think like many of you do if my lab was the only dog I had dealt with. But when you have a dog who is aggressive, that bites you, and can't be controlled and you foresee your dog being put down for his behavior in the future and then you have a trainer teach you how to establish control and respect by using the alpha roll, and NILIF, then you may be more accepting of the fact that different dogs require different training techniques.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have used physicality with dogs. At times it appeared to be effective. I have no doubt of this occurence. That does not mean it was the best approach, the most effective or the least likely to possibly produce unwanted repercussions or fallout. It is not always so simple as saying an outcome proves the method.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

codmaster said:


> *Maybe it actually learned that it better not bite humans?*
> 
> *Or if the human didn't react except to go away or maybe give the dog a treat or a toy, it learned that if it growls and/or bites then good things will happen to it?*


I am not against corrections by any means, but the myth that you must "dominate" your dog by alpha rolling it when it shows any type of behavior you don't like or aggression is simply bad information. If done on the wrong dog this is recipe for getting bitten.

I think we've all done it in the past because it was what was taught (and unfortunately is still taught by some). Thankfully people are getting out of the stone ages and learning more about dogs and how they truly act. People have thought that that is how other dogs would discipline another dog and it is simply not true. 

I liked the example of a mother dog with her pups. She isn't a bully to them like that. And also, let's be honest, our dogs KNOW that we aren't dogs. We aren't weird looking dogs to them, they understand we are people. People to dogs should mean respect, leadership and everything good that happens to me. That's my opinion.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

codmaster said:


> True about the scientific evidence - there is no true "scientific" evidence about the great majority of THeory about dog learning and behavior!
> 
> BTW, that is what makes it so interesting! Sort of like child raising!
> 
> I.E. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" and such.



There's plenty of scientific research out there that proves what things like alpha rolls and shock collars do to dogs. People don't really care about that though, as long as the dog is "behaving." 

Here's a study to show you as an example:
Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The alpha roll doesn't cause the dog any pain whatsoever. I used it for my GS and it was very effective. He would have been PTS by now because he didn't hesitate to bite before we were trained in using this technique with him. After this training he doesn't bite us anymore, and I believe he will never have to be put to sleep for aggression. My lab on the other hand, has never needed to be trained in this manner. I would probably think like many of you do if my lab was the only dog I had dealt with. But when you have a dog who is aggressive, that bites you, and can't be controlled and you foresee your dog being put down for his behavior in the future and then you have a trainer teach you how to establish control and respect by using the alpha roll, and NILIF, then you may be more accepting of the fact that different dogs require different training techniques.


There are other ways to get your dog to not bite you other than physically grabbing it, forcing it to the ground, and rolling it over on its back. Do you think you are teaching your dog a lesson? When it didn't look at you directly does that mean the dogs knows better now? When it growled back at you because it was threatened, did you just physically hit it more? :wild: 

And everyone should practice NILF with all of their dogs. Fair, consistent leadership is not the problem here. That's all I'm going to say about this post.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I would not roll a puppy, even an LGD puppy, unless there was a reason to do so (like chasing chickens). LGD mothers will correct their puppies for chasing stock, and for that matter, so will a good dominant doe. If you don't have either one of those, you have to fufill the role. 

I didn't read the article, but if it's saying you should just roll a pup and get in his face for no reason, that's pretty assinine.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

selzer said:


> I have NEVER seen a dam treat her pups at four weeks old the way that is suggested here. I have never seen them snarl, put them on their back, growl at them at all. My dams are incredibly tolerant with puppies and are very easy going with them. Maybe different breeds are different, but my dogs generally have a puppy license until they are closer to five months old. And at that point, the dam may grumble, but never puts the pup on its back.
> 
> Usually if a youngster because obnoxious, the bitch will leap over a small fence and leave the whelps alone for a while.


Thanks for sharing this.  And no, different breeds are not different about this.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

lar07 said:


> There's plenty of scientific research out there that proves what things like alpha rolls and shock collars do to dogs. People don't really care about that though, as long as the dog is "behaving."
> 
> Here's a study to show you as an example:
> Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


 
That study has been totally discredited by a number of folks who have great experience with the use of e-collars in the effective use of them in training dogs. Just from the title one could guess the conclusions of the authors of the "study". They had no clue how to use the e-collar effectivly and used them very inappropriately in their work and, not very surprisingly were able to prove their preset conclusions.

Have you ever seen a dog that had been trained properly with an e-collar by someone who knew how to use such a training device?

BTW, just exactly does an alpha roll do to a dog?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

lar07 said:


> There are other ways to get your dog to not bite you other than physically grabbing it, forcing it to the ground, and rolling it over on its back. Do you think you are teaching your dog a lesson? When it didn't look at you directly does that mean the dogs knows better now? When it growled back at you because it was threatened, did you just physically hit it more? :wild:
> 
> And everyone should practice NILF with all of their dogs. Fair, consistent leadership is not the problem here. That's all I'm going to say about this post.


 
Just to make sure that we all understand what you mean, could you explain what "Fair, consistent leadership" is?

Would it include letting a dog keep a bone when he growls at you when you try to take it away? Esp. if he doesn't like the "higher value" treat/toy that you try to negotiate a trade with him?


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

codmaster said:


> That study has been totally discredited by a number of folks who have great experience with the use of e-collars in the effective use of them in training dogs. Just from the title one could guess the conclusions of the authors of the "study". They had no clue how to use the e-collar effectivly and used them very inappropriately in their work and, not very surprisingly were able to prove their preset conclusions.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog that had been trained properly with an e-collar by someone who knew how to use such a training device?
> 
> BTW, just exactly does an alpha roll do to a dog?


So I assume you didn't even read the results, or the article at all? I've seen dogs that have been trained with e-collars. Of course they are behaving. Wouldn't you? I'd like you to wear one and tell me that it doesn't hurt. They walk around just waiting for it because they have it in their mind that,"Oh *****, I'm going to get shocked if I do anything." I've seen the dogs that it has broken. I also have seen the burn marks on the necks of dogs that have had e-collars on. I've seen "trainers" who have beaten client dogs and shocked them so much that they have secretly gone to vets for treatment, only to be turned down because the vet would not hide this abuse. 

So, define, "properly." And your last question does not make sense, so please re-type. I already can tell right now, that you are the type that yanks em and cranks em, shocks, and uses force, so I realize that this is wasting my time to even type this to you.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Just to make sure that we all understand what you mean, could you explain what "Fair, consistent leadership" is?
> 
> Would it include letting a dog keep a bone when he growls at you when you try to take it away? Esp. if he doesn't like the "higher value" treat/toy that you try to negotiate a trade with him?


Fair, consistent leadership is establishing a routine for the dog that involves obedience, exercise (both mental and physical) and a proper diet. Fair and consistent leadership means you don't abuse your dog when it doesn't understand your request. Fair and consistent leadership means that you withhold or take away things that the dog likes if he is misbehaving. 

As far as possessiveness of toys/value items, no, I wouldn't let him keep a bone if he was acting that way, but why am I even taking it away from him after I've given it to him in this example? I can take high value items away from my dogs, but I don't see what this is proving? Is this more "dominance" talk from you?


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I use an e-collar on both of my dogs, and I assure you they don't simply wait around thinking that they are about to get shocked. A dog with stable temperament will work through the electric and understand pretty quickly what it did wrong without losing sleep over it. Electric isn't for every dog, nor is purely positive training. This is the problem with studies and getting stuck in one idea based on them - no two dogs are identical in training needs.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

lar07 said:


> So I assume you didn't even read the results, or the article at all? I've seen dogs that have been trained with e-collars. Of course they are behaving. Wouldn't you? I'd like you to wear one and tell me that it doesn't hurt. They walk around just waiting for it because they have it in their mind that,"Oh Sh*t, I'm going to get shocked if I do anything." I've seen the dogs that it has broken. I also have seen the burn marks on the necks of *dogs that have had e-collars on. I've seen "trainers" who have beaten client dogs and shocked them so much that they have secretly gone to vets for treatment*, only to be turned down because the vet would not hide this abuse.
> 
> So, define, "properly." And your last question does not make sense, so please re-type. *I already can tell right now, that you are the type that yanks em and cranks em, shocks, and uses force, so I realize that this is wasting my time to even type this to you*.


lar - you know what can happen when you assume, don't you? So better not to assume you know something when you don't.

So you have seen dogs that were trained with ecollars, have you? Good for you!

BTW, how did a dog "*secretly gone to vets for treatment"? *
Those dogs must be really smart to be able to do that by themselves.

At least you do know enough to not try to answer reasonable questions that you do not know how to answer.

And it is obvious that you are wasting your time, so for you to stop typing is probably a good thing.

Just to assist you in understanding the "PROPER" use of an ecollar, (just like any dog training tool/technique) in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, an ecollar is a VERY effective tool to train some behaviors in dogs. 

Very low stim levels (ones that you could use on your own wrist or neck w/o any pain whatsoever) are used when used properly. Kind of a good reminder to a dog that they MUST do something, i.e. "come", that they have already learned how to do BEFORE they are corrected for not doing it.

lar, just for the heck of it, could you explain how you enforce a "Recall" - and what you do if the dog blows you off because he sees another dog or maybe found something really good to sniff? 

This is off lead of course (not that you would ever use a leash to "Yank em and crank em")? 

Maybe offer them a "Higher value" treat to please come? What would you do?


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

Shaina said:


> I use an e-collar on both of my dogs, and I assure you they don't simply wait around thinking that they are about to get shocked. A dog with stable temperament will work through the electric and understand pretty quickly what it did wrong without losing sleep over it. Electric isn't for every dog, nor is purely positive training. This is the problem with studies and getting stuck in one idea based on them - no two dogs are identical in training needs.


Why do you think your dog needs a shock collar? Would your dog listen without the shock collar on? 

Also, could you please define purely positive training?


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

codmaster said:


> lar - you know what can happen when you assume, don't you? So better not to assume you know something when you don't.
> 
> So you have seen dogs that were trained with ecollars, have you? Good for you!
> 
> ...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

People have stone age mentality about a lot of things. Some of the views on the remote collars are very outdated...both pro and con. I remember 40 years ago when I was training, we used the pinch collar to train. 95% of the people in the AKC world thought this was an abomnation. It was cruel and inhumane...especially in AKC obedience. Fast forward to today, you go to any obedience or breed club of the working breeds during training sessions and you will see pinch collars used very effectively....same collar, same kind of dogs, but a totally different mentality towards it as people became EDUCATED on its use and stopped listening to the anything with a pinch is cruel. You show me an inflexible mindset, I'll show you a trainer with limitations. I have seen countless dogs trained with remotes that are working happily with tail wagging and upbeat. Not under stress, if people have not seen this also, they are either disingenuous, or very limted in what they have seen and know and shouldn't be giving advice on this subject. I have seen remotes used inappropriately also. But to give one side without the other is the source of uneducated opinions.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I love it how people will take something to the extremes to "try" to make their point. I repeatedly see people saying that "sometimes" certain methods are needed...this get received and returned as "you have to use force to train dogs"....nobody said using force was absolute or the only way. If you can't read messages correctly, you probably can't read dogs correctly.JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

lar07 said:


> codmaster said:
> 
> 
> > lar - you know what can happen when you assume, don't you? So better not to assume you know something when you don't.
> ...


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

lar07 said:


> Why do you think your dog needs a shock collar? Would your dog listen without the shock collar on?
> 
> Also, could you please define purely positive training?


Would my lab with high prey drive lab 100% positively come back to me if he saw a rabbit running without having used different methods (using a long line AND using electric in set up situations, ie going through areas where I have seen many rabbits?) Probably not. No matter how well you train your dog, sometimes prey drive can take over and it can leave you in a bad situation. I'm not saying I take my dogs off leash everywhere, but in a situation such as a large natural dog park (we have one over many, many acres that lead to forest in the back) I keep an ecollar on him to reassure that he will not run off. I don't use electric as my number one source of training, but it does help. Recalls are my #1 training time for me to use electric - it DOES make a solid recall. The thing with using compulsion, and this goes with a pinch collar or an electric collar, is the handler HAS to know how to take the pressure off immediately and keep the dogs drive high. If you simply blast a dog for doing something wrong you are being unfair and that falls on the handler, not the training tool. 

When I said purely positive I was referring to zero compulsion, like what Petsmart trainers tend to teach (using a flat collar, guiding with treats only, etc). Some dogs this WILL work for. Leash corrections could fall into this category as well I suppose, but when I think of purely positive I think zero compulsion. 

I also like electric when my dogs are in a pack of dogs, whether it be a dog park or at the daycare that I work at - I'd like to know that if a fight breaks out with other dogs, or my own although that has never happened, I can be certain that I can get my dogs out of the situation immediately from a distance.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I spend most of my days with packs of dogs ranging in numbers to 25--40 (with a couple other humans around).
I see pack behavior and dog language eight hours or more a day and let me tell you how interesting it is.
No, I didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn, but I do work for a behaviorist who is very knowlegeable about dogs.

I have never seen a dog on dog correction that was a roll. I HAVE seen an older dog start with ignoring a young un (eight months old) or more submissive dog, go with a small vocalization "gruff..." , and escalate to more vocalization....then finally if the young un keeps up being a pest or challenging the older dog; the older dog will actually knock the youngster to the ground and show full canines. Showing the full canines in this instance is dominance and a warning, "Leave me alone"....if the youngster still doesn't take this and continues a challenge....the older dog will pin it down. 99% of the time it won't get past the "gruff" warning or the lip curl. Usually the bully types have a difficult time understanding what "NO" means.
I have seen this behavior at my job, and at dog parks....so the de-bunking of Alpha Dominance is a bizarre concept in my opinion. Leave even two dogs together for any length of time and they will set up a heirocracy (sp?), or pack order. Doesn't matter if it's malti-poos or Anatolian Shepherds.

Note: The dog receiving the correction NEVER gets rolled on it's back. That's something the receipiant does to ward off further aggression and to appease the elder or more dominant dog.
Scruffing a dog though, and growling in it's face is not wise because you can develop some instant extra piercings that you may not want. I do not have a problem with pinning a dog. However I do feel it's an extreme consequence for an extreme action. If it's not done correctly, or it's done on a frequent basis...(not correct IMO) you only make the dog more confident as it becomes a game of wrestle. Establishing NILF (which is a human in a dominant position) and living that way; usually is enough for most companion dogs and is a more effective way. Pinning a dog if it has to be done, when done correctly usually only needs to be done once in that dog's life. And, no you don't become a feared leader if you have to do that and it's done correctly.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Let's please attempt to keep this civil. You may disagree without becoming rude or nasty to the person with an opposing view. 

This is a general warning to KNOCK IT OFF. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Any method can be misused....positive training, e-stim, what have you.

I have an e collar and, yes, I will wear it at the levels my dog's generally train with when it is used. There are well made collars. 

Well respected behaviorists instruct in the use of e-stim appropriately even. It is not what many think it is when applied well.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

One of my very good Virginia friends, Laura, has several livestock guardian dogs (Great Pyrenees) on her farm. She gets them as pups and has always gotten them from the same breeder. Her last pup came in this spring, after he eldest Pyrenees passed away last fall. I have never (ever) seen her dogs be any more or less dominant than any other breed of dog she owns or any breed of dog I've ever owned. Certainly they were in no more need of alpha rolling to establish dominance than any other dog I've ever met.

I think this is stupid advice to give a new puppy owner, that they need to roll puppy in order to "establish dominance". You can establish the pack order in your home without grabbing, rolling, and growling. I've never had any issues establishing pack order or helping my dogs understand that they're not the boss and certain behaviors won't be tolerated. And I've done it without grabbing, rolling, hitting, whatever.

Even the Monks of New Skete no longer recommend the alpha roll. For one, because dogs do NOT roll one another - the rolling over is a behavior offered by the submissive dog, not physically forced by the dominant one. And for two, because it's a really great way to get bitten in the face, as has been pointed out.

As far as techniques go, I think it goes into the same drawer as hitting the dog with a rolled-up newspaper or sticking its nose into its pee or poop. In my humble opinion.

I have NO issues with physical corrections that are issued as they become necessary, but that's not what the original post talks about. The original post talks about taking a young puppy and rolling it to "establish dominance". Not to correct bad or unwanted behavior. I'm not entirely sure that a hard physical correction would have a place or be needed with a young pup, as talked about in the original post, either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CarrieJ said:


> I spend most of my days with packs of dogs ranging in numbers to 25--40 (with a couple other humans around).
> I see pack behavior and dog language eight hours or more a day and let me tell you how interesting it is.
> No, I didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn, but I do work for a behaviorist who is very knowlegeable about dogs.
> 
> ...



I am really glad you posted this because I was seriously starting to worry that I have weird dogs. If a dam or another dog in my group showed any of that kind of behavior to a four week old puppy it would never be allowed access to young puppies again, because I find it very odd. To limit stress on the dam, I rarely allow any of my other dogs around the puppies. When I had, I have never seen that kind of response.

I believe that dogs do create a hierarchy amongst themselves. I think this is very different than what is found in the wild. Comparing wild canids to domestic ones makes very little sense to me at all. A wild dog/wolf is a lean running machine. Everything is about survival. Pups play, adults do not. Fights are avoided for the most part because a fight will often mean death to the loser, either right then and there, or slower as he is no longer within the pack, and injured or even alone, survival chances would be very low.

So the behavior of domestic dogs, has to be studied outside of the behavior of their wild cousins. The hierarchy can be clear and concrete, or it can be barely perceptible. It can be so weak that there is constant stress and fighting, or it can be so solid that the it is completely unnoticeable. I notice who is who among my dogs, but do alter my behavior to them because of it. I do not feed the most dominant bitch first. I do not refrain from giving pets to another dog. I certainly do not vie with them for the alpha dog position, nor do I support it, nor do I try to alter it. I do prevent fighting, and if I have two that dislike each other, I generally kennel them in such a manner that they are not right next to each other.

The reason I dislike the whole alpha-dominance type training, is that it is, in my opinion, based on an erroneous perception of canine behavior, which in my opinion is doubly wrong. Wrong first because of the whole alpha roll, dominant dog garbage, and wrong because we are humans, they are dogs, and they are smart enough to know the difference even if we aren't. 

Can physically dominating a canine create in them the desired effect? Probably. Dogs are pretty adaptable. They can generally figure out what we want however we go about trying to get it through their heads. I think it can also create problems in some dogs.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

lar07 said:


> There are other ways to get your dog to not bite you other than physically grabbing it, forcing it to the ground, and rolling it over on its back. Do you think you are teaching your dog a lesson? When it didn't look at you directly does that mean the dogs knows better now? When it growled back at you because it was threatened, did you just physically hit it more? :wild:
> 
> And everyone should practice NILF with all of their dogs. Fair, consistent leadership is not the problem here. That's all I'm going to say about this post.


Did I hit my dog more? Who the heck said anything about hitting a dog? You are obviously very ignorant and like to twist words and make false accusations. Conversation over.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> For one, because dogs do NOT roll one another - the rolling over is a behavior offered by the submissive dog, not physically forced by the dominant one.


FWIW, I have seen a dog roll and pin another dog on his back. The other dog did not "offer" this behavior--he was posturing in a wannabe-dominant manner. The dominant dog put him in his place and did not let him up until he stopped struggling and licked his face. Then all was jolly well good and the two got along swimmingly.

I keep hearing people say "dogs don't alpha roll each other", and I don't know where they get this information. 

I do agree, however, that just because dogs alpha roll each other, it doesn't necessarily follow that humans ought to alpha roll dogs. Dogs sniff each other's butts, too--does that mean we should?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Dogs sniff each other's butts, too--does that mean we should?


You go first


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> FWIW, I have seen a dog roll and pin another dog on his back. The other dog did not "offer" this behavior--he was posturing in a wannabe-dominant manner. The dominant dog put him in his place and did not let him up until he stopped struggling and licked his face. Then all was jolly well good and the two got along swimmingly.
> 
> I keep hearing people say "dogs don't alpha roll each other", and I don't know where they get this information.
> 
> I do agree, however, that just because dogs alpha roll each other, it doesn't necessarily follow that humans ought to alpha roll dogs. Dogs sniff each other's butts, too--does that mean we should?


I have never seen it with adult dogs, but I have heard that wolves in captivity will. I certainly have seen puppies wrestle and pin each other, and sometimes it is the same one doing the pinning, and sometimes the one pinned yesterday is pinning today. They are playing. What i have NEVER seen is a dam treat 4 week old puppies like that. She might not want them to nurse anymore if the toenails have not been kept after, or she is weaning them, but usually my bitches are pretty good about allowing nursing too, beyond four weeks. I find he behavior puzzling for a dam toward pups, and I do not see the need for people to dominate a puppy like that, to prove they are bigger and stronger.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've never heard of someone coupling an "alpha roll" with getting in the dog's face and growling/snarling. If you DO have an aggressive dog, doesn't that mean it would be dangerous?

Just seemed to be a very unusual approach. Again, though, the weirdest part to me was that this wasn't a "punishment" but a form of training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like they are trying to get it through the dog's head early that they are the king of the mountain so that the dog will not even consider thinking anything different. I do not like the idea.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Yeah, I know you're right Sue. But, I think it more likely to convince the dog that you are insane. Even in bitches do with with their pups or dogs all over the world are doing it, I've never seen a dog just walk up to another and get in their face unless they are looking to start afight.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> It sounds like they are trying to get it through the dog's head early that they are the king of the mountain so that the dog will not even consider thinking anything different. I do not like the idea.


It sounds like something an insecure wannabe-alpha dog would do.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

If you are speaking/typing about 12-16 week old puppies...that would be ludicrous to even assume these types of corrections.
I mean jeez, let the babies be babies or "kids be kids" usually the "puppy pass" note: I said "usually" ends around 7 months. Sometimes sooner and sometimes later....depends on the dog. A couple of weeks ago, I noticed a puppy (four and half months old), Lab/Mastiff literally lift his leg to pee and he's started to drop....ungodly young in my book but apparently it happens.
Oh, I love the people that will scruff a dog, get in their face and yell "NO" what in God's Green Planet is that about?.....Who teaches that. I'm not sunshine and cookies for everything, but jeez louize.

Not being an expert, but using such extreme measures on "infants" could possibly result in having a dog with good nerves become a nervous wreck or fearful of humans....not the results that I'd be looking for. The trainers/behaviorists here could tell you more about that.

But, apparently my dog Alice must have been "alpha rolled" by either an ironing board or a broom because to this day....she dislikes both.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> FWIW, I have seen a dog roll and pin another dog on his back. The other dog did not "offer" this behavior--he was posturing in a wannabe-dominant manner. The dominant dog put him in his place and did not let him up until he stopped struggling and licked his face. Then all was jolly well good and the two got along swimmingly.


I have never seen an adult dog roll and pin another dog. I've seen them pin each other both in play and in fight, but not purposely roll / pin each other. Not any of my dogs or any dogs I've observed over the years.


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