# Schutzhund Judging



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is a question. Those of you who have trialed your dogs in SchH. When the judge critiqued your dog in each phase, did what the judge say about your dog surprise you or did you agree with just about everything the judge said? I am basically asking about the comments made concerning temperament shown during each exercise. Some judges will say things like : " I would like to see more temperament during the long down". 

What has been your experience?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Just curious but how much temperment can you show in a long dog?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I meant down


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> .....When the judge critiqued your dog in each phase, did what the judge say about your dog surprise you or did you agree with just about everything the judge said? I am basically asking about the comments made concerning temperament shown during each exercise. .......


I have been surprised by scores a few times (both positive and negative), but for the most part I have agreed with what the judge has seen. Usually when I am surprised it is because I got a better score than I was expecting. Only in one trial did I not like what the judge said about my dog's temperament, but when thinking about it later, on that day, he was correct. 

I remember at a regional event a Mal got 95 in protection with a basically perfect performance. The judge said the dog lacked aggression and power in the blind (which he did) and could not "V" the dog because of that. The owner did NOT agree.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I figured out the answer to my question


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

lhczth said:


> The owner did NOT agree.



LOL most don't, I really wonder how they make it to that level without gathering the knowledge to see it.

Vandal, for the most part I have agreed, the kind you smile and nod your head. I was out there, I know what my dog did.

I sometimes disagree in protection, depends on the judge and their verdict. Sometimes you go back and watch the video in slow motion and say "needs a fuller grip?? huh??" but not often. In general, I figure I paid my money for one judge's opinion and I got it. It would be rude to dispute it anywhere but in my head.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

SchHGSD said:


> LOL most don't, I really wonder how they make it to that level without gathering the knowledge to see it.



Because everybody has a different perspective. 

Lets say you breed to the highest standard possible and you only take the best of the best and everything else that can't keep up with your standard has to leave. 

What is a bad apple for you might actually be the best of the best for another person. You say "Eh, the dog just doesn't have it!" while the new owner is like "Holy crap... look at that, he's got EVERYTHING!" 

For him it's the best dog ever because they've never had a dog like that. So to them it has the potential, it has the aggression and is very powerful. Heck, it might even be the best dog in the club but once the judge says "Not enough aggression..." they don't understand because it is the best dog in the area and therefor should get the highest scores. 

It's all about perspective...plus every judge judges differently. What is powerful and aggressive for one judge is lame for the other... 

Same in tracking. One Judge wants to see the dog race through the track while the other one prefers a slower dog...


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have only been on front of a schutzhund judge twice, And neither time was I surprised by the comments. I was however surprised by my dogs during the routines!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

gagsd said:


> i have only been on front of a schutzhund judge twice, and neither time was i surprised by the comments. I was however surprised by my dogs during the routines!


 
lol.


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## Pitts (May 1, 2010)

Most of the times, I agree, or am surprised at the score in a good way. the fact is the judge is there to do just that, JUDGE, they will also try to help you get better as they have alot of experience in the field and can see things you may not see or give you ways to improve on conditions you know exist.
I truly appreciate all critiques as this only helps me improve and get better.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We did an affiliation trial today and I was pleasantly surprised with my critique. It was a BH and I've spent all week focusing on article indication and putting together the retrieve, neither of which helped much for preparing for the BH so I wasn't really sure what to expect.

When I did the FO and OB1 with Kenya (not SchH but very similar) I was happy that the judge said we looked very connected and bonded as a team and our bond was evident in our work. That made up for all the little half point/one point mistakes (most of which were handler errors).

Now the show critiques are all over the place! Last summer I showed Nikon a few weeks apart and both judges said opposite things about his head but he got the same placement and rating at both shows.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Nikon did his BH today?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

An affiliation trial is a mock-trial that new clubs must put on before being granted full club status and be allowed to hold official trials.(Well, that's how it works in Canada, I'm assuming it is the same in the States).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ That. He did a BH but not with the SV judge so it doesn't count. Good practice though, and we still tracked and did protection too so the trip out wasn't wasted. The real BH I will probably do whenever I feel like it, I don't like to "just get things done" so I will wait until it looks how I want it (probably the same time he's ready for SchH1).


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

I have to agree with all but one score and critique with all three of my dogs
My Jett should have gotten a 96 instead of a 95 tracking at our regional last year it may have been the way I set him up but there was no mention of it in the critique no biggie next time the rest that day were mark on.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Just a weird thought about "temperament during the long down" 
Darn it, the flag looks like a tracking flag and my dog starts to sniff at the flag before I down him - I was thinking he thought this was a scent pad. Took a few moments before he just knocked it off and remained in place.
I have trialed once. He got "suffient" I didn't know why. Judge explained it to me. That was Mr. Hamilton. I got it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

It doesn't look like too many understood the question. So, I will do a better job of explaining what I mean since I was not talking about agreeing with the points.

First, I guess it matters who you trial under. Some judges will talk about the exercises and what they perceive your dog's temperament to be based on how the dog performs. I was recently told that the judges are supposed to be doing this now but based on the answers here, I get the impression they are not. The comment about "more temperament on the long down" for example. When asked to explain what that means, a judge made comments like this: You want to see the dog go down quickly and watch the handler as she/he walks away. They should appear alert to the handler , maybe watching the other dog on occassion vs a dog who lays there with the ears sideways in a sort of lazy fashion. Not really observing the handler etc. The later showing less temperament than the former.

There are judges who will comment on dogs who show some pressure during heeling and say this is an indication of temperament or that a dog should show more temperament in how he gets up on the recall for example. 

So, maybe there are two questions here. Have you ever shown under a judge who critiques this way? 
Did you agree, based on your training experiences with your dog, with the assessment of your dog's temperament?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I haven't trialed enough (2x) to really have an answer based on alot of personal experience, but I think this is interesting and am going to try and respond anyway. I have watched alot of critques of dogs that I knew from my training group. I have not really heard a judge yet use "more temperament" as part of a critique, but I have heard other phrases.

Something that I see popping up critiques is "drive and enthusiasm". For example "The dog showed a lot of drive and enthusiasm in the heeling pattern" (usually followed by the more specific technical critique that the dog was slightly forging or crabbing) OR "The dog lacks drive and enthusiasm" (usually followed by a critique that the dog was lagging or flat). I have also seen the words "power" and "intensity" thrown around. 

I have seen dogs get hammered in the points on the long down for any dog that was sniffing or looking anywhere but where the handler was supposed to be. The dog never broke the down, never wiggled more than an inch, and still lost half the points. I now take more care in how I train my long down as a consequence. 

I've seen more judges comment more throughly in protection lately as well, for ex. making more specific comments about the grip on the reattack as opposed to the escape and what that means in terms of the dog's reaction to pressure from the helper.

I think that in general, as a spectator and when they are dogs that I know from training, the accuracy of comments on drive, power, and intensity and their implications on the dog's temperament are hit or miss. Some judges I've seen have really hit it right on pointing out fundamental weaknesses in the dog, others have been WAY off. I remember watching a trial with a dog that almost pulled the helper over on the reattack. The judge commented about what great fight the dog showed...Having watched the dog the previous week almost leave the field I'm reasonably sure that's not what was going on there...

I think a lot of it depends on the personal preference of the judge. Some judges like an older style tough dog, some like 'em flashy. The judges that like a prancy, flashy obedience dog will mark down a less flashy dog. We had a dog like this in our group. Tough dog, stoic, and very intense but not given to flashy performace and he received a comment that he didn't show enough "drive and enthusiasm" or "power". The handler definitely disagreed. But it was obvious that the judge had a different kind of picture in mind.


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