# Protection/Schutzhund training advice / book recommendations



## Misster Dog (Jan 27, 2012)

I plan on enrolling my German Shepherd to dog protection class. However I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement training. I don't agree with prong collars or harsh leash corrections. For those of you who have had your dog trained in protection/Schtzhund, how did you find your trainer and make sure their methods were what you were comfortable with? 

Are their any good books about dog protection/ schutzhund training that are positive?( For further research of course, I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough to try that sort of training by myself).

Any advice or shared wisdom will be appreciated.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Do you plan on doing Schutzhund for fun or for competition? 

Every club I've been to has used prongs and e-collars on some dogs. It's your call on what you want to do with your dog, but most Schutzhund trainers will use harder correction tools on some dogs because not all dogs can be managed with the same training technique. However, that doesn't mean the trainer will force you to use one or that you have to use one. A good trainer will respect your decision and work with you on that. 

I found my trainer from a recommendation by my breeder. I visited a few other clubs and liked my trainer because I felt comfortable with him. I do use a prong with some of my dogs and don't see an issue with using different correction methods depending on the dog so I didn't have the same reservations that you do when picking a club. Visit the club, watch a couple of training days and see what you think. If you feel comfortable with them, continue going. Just a heads up that other people at the club might use harder correction methods. In fact, most of the serious people at my club use a prong or e-collar to fine-tune their routines (especially for obedience and refining protection).


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## Misster Dog (Jan 27, 2012)

More for personal protection, which I guess the more appropriate terminology would be protection training lol. However I'd be interested in considering trying Schutzund as a sport.



qbchottu said:


> Do you plan on doing Schutzhund for fun or for competition?
> 
> Every club I've been to has used prongs and e-collars on some dogs. It's your call on what you want to do with your dog, but most Schutzhund trainers will use harder correction tools on some dogs because not all dogs can be managed with the same training technique. However, that doesn't mean the trainer will force you to use one or that you have to use one. A good trainer will respect your decision and work with you on that.
> 
> I found my trainer from a recommendation by my breeder. I visited a few other clubs and liked my trainer because I felt comfortable with him. I do use a prong with some of my dogs and don't see an issue with using different correction methods depending on the dog so I didn't have the same reservations that you do when picking a club. Visit the club, watch a couple of training days and see what you think. If you feel comfortable with them, continue going. Just a heads up that other people at the club might use harder correction methods. In fact, most of the serious people at my club use a prong or e-collar to fine-tune their routines (especially for obedience and refining protection).


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

There is a difference between Schutzhund training and personal protection imo. Sure there is overlap, but they should be approached differently. We have a couple guys that have dogs for personal protection and my trainer approaches them differently then the sport dogs. What kind of lines is your GSD from? Show or work?


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## Misster Dog (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah I admit I was coining them together without paying attention to the differences. 

The german Shepherd puppy I'll be getting(later this year) has a line of schutzhund dogs. Both the breeding females and studs participate as a competitive sport.




qbchottu said:


> There is a difference between Schutzhund training and personal protection imo. Sure there is overlap, but they should be approached differently. We have a couple guys that have dogs for personal protection and my trainer approaches them differently then the sport dogs. What kind of lines is your GSD from? Show or work?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think all dogs make good personal protection dogs. You need special qualities to have a dog that has the drive and temperament to become a personal protection dog. Once you get the pup, have her evaluated with a trainer when she gets a little older and see if she has the potential for that line of work. Real life is different than doing sport on the Schutzhund field. Not all dogs have the aptitude to do work in a real life environment. A personal protection dog is like a loaded gun. There needs to be a lot of work and effort put into training a protection dog. Also, it takes a special dog to do "real life" work like police work, SAR or personal protection. For example, many dogs can bite a sleeve. That same dog will have trouble in a real life scenario with no bite suit or whip. Just keep that in mind to manage expectations. There is definitely a difference between a dog that can do sports vs. a dog that can work a K9 patrol. There are some members on here that do SAR/K9 work so I hope they will chime in and help you as well.


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## Misster Dog (Jan 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I don't think all dogs make good personal protection dogs. You need special qualities to have a dog that has the drive and temperament to become a personal protection dog. Once you get the pup, have her evaluated with a trainer when she gets a little older and see if she has the potential for that line of work. Real life is different than doing sport on the Schutzhund field. Not all dogs have the aptitude to do work in a real life environment. A personal protection dog is like a loaded gun. There needs to be a lot of work and effort put into training a protection dog. Also, it takes a special dog to do "real life" work like police work, SAR or personal protection. For example, many dogs can bite a sleeve. That same dog will have trouble in a real life scenario with no bite suit or whip. Just keep that in mind to manage expectations. There is definitely a difference between a dog that can do sports vs. a dog that can work a K9 patrol. There are some members on here that do SAR/K9 work so I hope they will chime in and help you as well.


That is a very fine and important distinction to make, thank you. I was actually just reading and doing more research just now and began to realize this. I admit having a dog that could protect me is a nice concept but ultimately, I want a family pet. You're right, not all dogs have it in them and it's not an easy expectation to make. I'll have to put more careful thinking about this. Thankfully I still have roughly 6-7 months until I get my puppy. Thank you for your insight!


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

There are distinct differences in a sport dog and a personal protection dog, so it is important to think about your goals prior to committing to your training, with the appropriate path in mind.

Regardless, training for either takes time, commitment, and resources to help you with training, so I commend you for doing early research!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Just as another opinion here, no one in our club uses an ecollar or prongs. I think a few people have prong collars in their gear bag but I don't recall the last time one was used. I'm not saying they never get used just that it's not the norm.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

There are a lot of tools that one can use, as long as used correctly. Since in Schutzhund, I have seen people abuse prongs, e-collars and their hands in training. So, no matter what the tool ( man made or man), it can be used well or abused.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Smithie86 said:


> There are a lot of tools that one can use, as long as used correctly. Since in Schutzhund, I have seen people abuse prongs, e-collars and their hands in training. So, no matter what the tool ( man made or man), it can be used well or abused.



+1 on what Sue said. Many tools like the prong or e collar get a bad rap because they are used improperly, and not judiciously like they should be.


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

I had been wondering if a dog trained in personal protection would be "_like a loaded gun._" 

My husband and I want a pet/companion dog (would like a GSD in the future) but that would protect us and our home if the need should arise. This is one of the reasons we are looking at GSDs. If the dog is not trained specifically in personal protection, would they still guard? How does this work?


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

A lot of questions need consideration here:

Do you have someone *knowledgeable, capable, and experienced* to help you train the dog, and maintain it's level of training and control?

Do you have the desire and time commitment necessary to maintain the training?

When you say "guard", to you want a dog that will just be protective of the home, and alert you, or perhaps just alert on command?

A *properly* trained dog, from good genetics should be a perfectly stable animal, capable of being an everyday companion as well....the caveat being that it takes a great commitment to the animal and it's training.

A dog is only one layer of security. Mindset, preparation and awareness are the number one piece in the puzzle. For physical security: alarms, good locks, and an alert dog that barks is all *most* people will ever need. 

For people needing or thinking they need a protection dog, firearms, or fighting ability...we are now talking a higher level. Probably a new thread, if anyone wants to discuss that stuff.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Most dogs, not just GSDs, are "protective" of their home and family - just in the last few days, a member posted about her GSD protecting her and her baby from an aggressive Great Dane.

Any puppy you get should receive training. PERIOD. If you want to do man work, you must make a huge commitment to training and maintenance of same training.

In so far as the OPs query - there is a vast range of drive levels and intensity and BIDDABILITY in different bloodlines....I have an extremely intense, strong, well balanced female who has never seen an e-collar...a prong yes, but that is a safety issue for control. I don't NEED to train her with a prong....other dogs I have/have had, were trained with an e-collar due to their combinations of drive, biddability and clarity...it comes down much more to the genetics of the dog what you will need at the end of the day. There is NOTHING wrong with positive training - but even the "gurus" of this in the sport still proof with e-collars and prongs. The majority of dogs in this country concentrate on the same lines through a few branches, and commonly they show the same types of drives and personality - and the prong and e-collar are usually appropriate tools for these dogs if used with common sense and not abused. As Sue stated, a handler can abuse a dog with anything - choke collars are some of the worst collars for abusing a dog - much more than a prong!

Lee


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

*Answer to these questions...*



Tim Connell said:


> A lot of questions need consideration here:
> 
> Do you have someone *knowledgeable, capable, and experienced* to help you train the dog, and maintain it's level of training and control?
> 
> ...


Wow, this line of questioning is good. I don't think I have all of the answers yet. I also need to discuss this with my husband and make sure we are on the same page with all of this. We have to be. Thank you.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I may be alone in this, but I believe a dog trained to BITE a human being also needs an owner that understands that there may be a possibility of using different training methods. Teaching a dog to bark and bite somebody is not very hard, but teaching a dog to out and stay calm and directed towards you can be very difficult. Some dogs, it is easy, others not so much.. Hopefully I don't get nailed for this comment, but I do think that anyone wanting to train their dog in personal protection should keep this in mind. 

I am training my girl for schutzhund with a club out here, for what it is worth. Maybe if you get out and visit the sport a bit more, you'll get a chance to see the different methods and see how corrections can be used properly without harming the dog, its drive, or your relationship


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