# Questions about Sables and/or DDR/working lines



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

A few things I have been wondering:

Do most sables have the light colored rings around the eyes and the black "penciled" toes just because those are standard markings of a sable?

Are all sables from working lines/DDR or are some from show lines?

Are there any differences in health problems or strengths in the sables (or working lines) versus the saddle backs (or show lines)? I may be getting confused here with the markings and/or bloodlines, but what I want to know is, is one of the "types" of GSDs more prone to certain health problems or more resilient?


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## Sheppy (Nov 13, 2004)

Some interesting observations on Sables by an SV conformation judge, 
http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html 

Best bet on health prospects is to get know know the dogs and what that breeding has typically produced.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you look back in this forum(starting at page 27!) there are threads about these lines.
The sable coloring varies according to the different lines, and some do/don't have penciling or pigment around the eyes. The darker the sable, the more the eye highlights would stand out.
Showlines do have sables, I don't think they are as strongly pigmented, more of a washed out or patterned look.

As far as health, my personal opinion is that the showlines have more health issues, but they can pop up in any line. 

I asked this question(about health in working lines, only) when I was looking into a DDR pup last year. Here is the thread, you can wade your way thru, maybe some of your questions will be answered here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=921456&page=16#Post921456


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

32 pages in this forum~ sorry, too late to edit!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Patti's Grimm is one dog comes to mind as a sable without pencil toes (maybe he does but they're too light to see in pics) or eye markings.










he's of czech lineage. Very similar markings to the sable GSD I had as a little girl.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Kaper does not have pencilled toes, Hary does. Both are sable, I believe both are Czech lines (Hary is for sure, I can't read Kaper's papers). Both pedigrees linked under the names in my sig.
(you can just see Kape's back paw)


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Very interesting links, Sheppy and Jane. I read them all. Lots of information there, I appreciate it!


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Love the pictures! Gosh, I need to win the lottery so I can get a nice sable pup and stay home working with him all day


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Chimo and Rayne have no pencil toes or "glasses". Keyzah has both and my angel KC had both.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Sables happen in all lines, although I believe them to be most common in the working lines. 

They do occur in North American showlines and can be quite dark...I actually think this is a nice looking bitch (although I don't really know anything about these kind of GSDs)









Most German Showline Sables that I have seen are pretty patterned as a rule.

In working lines sables run the gamut. 
This is a West German dark sable male. He doesn't have the really defined eye rings, but he also does not have the toe penciling. The black banding on his hair is just very dark. 









These are all my dogs. West German working lines. They are all sable but range quite a bit in color. Laying down the back is Argos and he is the darkest, also no visible eye rings. Cade, the puppy in the foreground is my most patterned sable. 









DDR dogs tend to be the darker sables with the toe penciling and eye rings. Also heavier build.

Have to say as far as health problems go...Any type of GSD can have problems. No one type is necessarily healthier than the other. They all pop up with issues. I think heavily linebred dogs can have a tendency to make health weaknesses show up more than an outcrossed dog which you can seem sometimes more in a showline dogs...but not always. In the end, I think it comes down to individuals. I like to look at pedigrees where the dogs are long lived. Chances are that if you have dogs consistently living long lives, their offspring have a better chance of being long lived as well...and then of course it's all about how you take care of your dog.

I've always found that my smaller dogs are more agile and less prone to have symptoms of joint issues.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well~ here is a West German and Czech mix, my boy at 9 months toe penciling and no eye highlights, we'll see how dark he gets. His sibs are redder and vary in pigment:
























After all my research, I am so fortunate and blessed to have Karlo in my life. He is everything I wanted in my next companion, and even though color was a preference, the temperament exceeded all. He changes with the pictures( I have a crappy camera, some are dark some are lighter, these are all light). 
I still absolutely love Puck v Grafental, and think he is stunning!







http://www.spartanville.com


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jenn, thank you for bringing up my Grimm! Actually, he does have heavy toe penciling. Maybe not all his pics show it, though.

Here's Grimm, and this shot shows off his toe penciling.








Note: Headwrinkles are mainly specific to "The Doofinator" line.








Grimm is a Czech line dog, pictured here at year ago at age 2 on his birthday in Bavaria, Germany.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Patti, do you see a resembelence of Grimm and Karlo? 
Grimm is one of the reasons I wanted a Czech pup!!!


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## valkyriegsd (Apr 20, 2000)

I had read somewhere that sables that carry black recessive have the toe penciling, not sure if that's true in ALL cases. But the two sables I've had either had a black parent or parents that had produced blacks. And both had the penciling.

Here is my current DDR pup, and his goes _beyond_ penciling, I think!!







Maybe a bi-color pattern on a sable? You'll see sables that have the saddleback pattern all the way to what Dax shows.









And one from the side, so you can see the coverage of the dark guard hairs...









And this is Merlin, from American showlines, his mother was black... You can't see his feet, but he did have penciling.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Gosh, all such BEAUTIFUL dogs!! I can hardly stand to wait!!


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Here are some pics of "The Judge" growing up and his color changing....ETA-I hated his color when I got him! lol lol It's OK now, though! 

12 weeks




































6 Months









8 Months









1 Year









18 Months









2 years old



























Just for Cassadee- A picture of his brother.....









As far as health goes, it depends on the breeder and the individual dogs. Judge has a great breeder and is healthy, his brother has OFA Excellent hips(blk/Tan), He has OFA Good and his sister has OFA good. 

Courtney


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Wow Courtney, he REALLY changed from his puppy color!! Are you sure he didn't get switched somewhere along the line? LOL!

Beautiful, I love his grown up color. I am started to "get" that I am probably not going to be able to pick a pup based on my color preferences because all the pups change so much. Blankets turning into saddles, light sables turning dark. Can't wait to meet the Judge in person


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I've often wondered if he was switched, BUT I'm fairly sure he wasn't! lol lol He's definetely the same dog mentally. lol lol 

Courtney


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

wow, he really DID change,,he's absolutey gorgeous,,and he was a cute puppy, but I do gravitate towards those dark dawgs))

Masi was kinda silvery black when she was young, now she looks like your boy, only the girly version)


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## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

Sables vary according to what their pattern genetics are, as a rule.
A very dark sable with black extensions down its legs & the black toe tracings, usually carries the solid black recessive gene.

A sable that carries the gene for the saddle two-tone (saddle black and tan/red/cream/or silver) pattern may show the saddle pattern so strongly that it can be difficult to tell whether the dog is a sable or a faded saddle black and tan, and it may be necessary to see a puppy picture of the dog to be certain. As young pups, sables are obviously different from black and tans.

A dog that is pure for sable (sable is dominant over two tone and the solid black) can produce only sables regardless of what color that dog is bred to. A dog that is pure for sable may be difficult to distinguish from a sable that carries a gene for the blanket black and tan pattern or the bicolor pattern. 

The "spectacles" around the eyes seem to be most common in dark sables, and are more common in some bloodlines than in others. Some of the German working lines seem to tend to produce sables with the "spectacles."

Sables also change somewhat in appearance according to how much undercoat they have. A sable in the winter will not look as dark as he or she will when summer comes and you strip out all that dead undercoat!


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Here's my guy, Koda. I have no idea what his lineage is, though it was just suggested to me he may be a mix of East and West lines. He doesn't have the pencil markings on his toes, but he has some markings down the front of his legs. The light rings around his eyes are more pronounced as well due to the fact that his sable coloring is pretty dark.



















You can see his toes in the last one, and around his eyes.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

All sables are healthy, beautiful, intelligent and good looking (is that the same as beautiful).

That's what Glory and Bretta told me to say... (they told me to say they were 'practically perfect' but I thought that may be too much).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a lighter, patterned sable with no toe penciling. Both her parents were sables. She looks like her mother, but has her father's expression and I believe he was a bit darker (red sable, mostly west German working lines).


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

I don't believe health is connected to the coat color, lol. 
Akbar is a black sable and has the stripe down his arms, his brother Hondo does not and is a light sable. Akbar also has the typical ring around his eyes.


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