# Vaccinations/Heartgard



## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

What are the vaccinations that you give your dogs? How often?

Is the Leptospirosis vaccination necessary in CA?

How do you feel about monthly Heartgard?

Thank you!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I follow Dr. Dodds vaccine protocol.

I have opted not to give Lepto...not sure about your exposure rate in CA?

Heartworm meds...I don't mess around with this one. The thought of heartworms really scares me. My boy was on Interceptor until my supply ran out...this is his 3rd month on Heartgard..luckily no issues to report. I give it all year long.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My holistic vet is looking into CAV-2 which is not in Dodds but Dodds is also reassessing that one after a new resurgence of CAV-1 virus. You cannot get a separate CAV-2 vaccine but can get it with bordatella and give separate from the distemper and parvo if you want to follow her protocol.

Same here on heartworms. I am in a lepto endemic area and, even with exposure, have decided not to give. Hard decision with a lot of factors. Did a thread on it. Going to do nosodes.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Interesting on the hepatitis. I know the WDJ did a recent article about it. I havn't read the article at home yet.

An Old Infectious Disease Is New Again - Whole Dog Journal Article

Lepto nosodes...I will have to find your thread and read up. The instance rate in my area is not high but my vet always encourages me to give it because he knows we hike alot with Rusty. As of right now I just can't give that vaccine...alot of concerns.

RoxyGirl, I forgot to mention my plan is to titer test moving forward.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lepto is a tough one 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...3-vaccinate-not-leptospirosis-bordetella.html

After a lot of research I personally decided not to give it because I am not sure it actually works and may just push an infection to a subclinical state. If I did give it, I would demand the Merial Recombintek because it has no adjuvants and has testing to back it up (for the servovars it covers) and unlike the others shows no shedding of live spirochetes. But the vet I used only had the Pfizer. Any other lepto vaccine is apparently not worth using.

I also know that a variant, bratislava is being identified in dogs coming in from the Czech republic and that is in no vaccine. We really don't know how prevalent the disease is because most tests won't work on an immunized dogs. Many dogs who are immunized seem to get lepto (and some speculation the vaccine may be the problem)..and testing is rarely done on any dog..they are just treated so it could be other things "standing" as lepto when the diagnosis is given.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I do most of the recommended ones...my theory is that I'd rather pay $20 for a vaccine than $2000 to cure from lepto or lyme. I also hike a lot, my boy swims in streams/ponds/Lake Michigan so it just makes sense to not risk it. We've also never had a negative reaction so I'm going to keep doing it...probably every 2 years at this point.

Bordetella is another one that's a hot button issue...I don't do that one unless I plan on boarding. And I don't plan on boarding so I don't do it.

Heartguard, wouldn't mess with that. I slow down a bit in the winter months, but still give a dose every 1.5 to 2 months. During the summer I'm hardcore about every month. Again...for a $10 pill a month its not worth the risk and the expensive treatment for heartworms.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It has nothing to do with the cost of the vaccine for me. Mainly concerns about over immunizing.


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## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

Thank you all for the wonderful feedback! I have contacted my vet and for the puppy vaccination schedule, they do:

8 weekst: DHPP
12 weekst: DHLPP (w/Lepto)
16 weeks: DHLPP (w/Lepto), Rabies

In 1 year they booster DHLPP and Rabies, then again every 3 years. Although, they do say to booster the Lepto vaccination EVERY year. I think I may pass on an annual Lepto vaccination and just go with the 3 year plan.

I have given my previous dogs Heartgard, so I will probably stick with that starting at 12 weeks.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I do rabies every three years and 2 adult distempers for each dog(they are 3 year distempers), then they are done with distemper. I give heartworm every month and if I move to a wooded area, I will give the lyme. I have never nor will I ever give lepto.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you are going to give Lepto you need to booster it every year. It is shown to be ineffective after about 15 months (the Merial vaccine but the Merial is not in the combo I don't know any data on the DHLPP)

That is a "standard" approach. There are different viewpoints on this as even the AAHA says most vaccines are good for 7 years or more.


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## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

Yes, the Lepto needs to be boostered every year. Although, I would rather not give a vaccine every year. Maybe after I booster after the first year I will not get the lepto anymore in the combo vaccine?

I asked my vet if it is required in the city and she said that they are seeing cases in Chihuahuas that never leave their homes much. Weird...


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

My guys get Rabies (as late as I can give it - prefer not until 1 yr of age) and that's it.

We've had Parvo here. Treated the pups (at home) and they all made it through with no problems.

I don't do any other vaccines nor do I do heartworm chemicals. I used to check my dogs yearly for heartworms but after 5 years with no positives I stopped doing it.

My dogs go to dog parks, dog shows, dog expos. We have hundreds of dogs come on our property (lure coursing) and DH & I go to many dog events each year. I do not worry about bringing something home.

I feel my dogs are stronger and can fight just about anything due to their natural diet and the lack of chemicals in their bodies.

My pack just went through a round of what I called Dog Flu. Loss of appetite, loose stools, lethargy. Only one ran a fever and I used plain aspirin to bring it down. Other than supportive care - making sure they got plenty of fluids and bland foods when they would take some - they all recovered with no problem.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Can I make a suggestion?? Do NOT give a rabies shot along with your booster, space them out atleast a month.

When I bring a dog in, they get the initial puppy booster, and lastly a rabies . At one year, I do one booster and another rabies (not on the same day), since rabies is required by law, after that my dogs get rabies vac every 3 years, and I titer every couple of years.

My aussies being seniors , and some of my previous gsd's, were always re vac'd each year until I got a little wiser and decided to stop..The aussies haven't had a vac (other than rabies) in probably 6+ years.

I do (monthly) Ivermectin on the aussies, Heartguard on the gsd(s), from April 1 thru Dec 1. 

I have indoor cats that had their initial vac's and none since. One is 21 years old and still doing pretty well, the others are much younger but I think absence of vacs have given me some long lived animals..


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## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

What are the negatives of giving the booster and the rabies shot at the same time? I am definitely open to all suggestions, thank you! )


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

first I don't like putting all that stuff in their system to begin with, doubling up like that, can just be to much at once and you never know what type of reaction, if any they could get from them.

My vet will not double up like that, and spaces vac's out atleast a month apart.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I, too don't like asking my dogs immune system to fight a whole different things at the same time and spacing out the vaccines makes sense to me.

There is an official "party line" on vaccines that doctors follow and there are alternative viewpoints some from no vaccines at all to some selecting and spacing vaccines and others giving all they can at every opportunity. People with opposing viewpoints span all education levels, so if your vet dismisses them as uneducated lunatics that is his problem because plenty of educated people are expressing their concerns (I was around in the 70s when a fellow I was studying under in my biochemistry major was rallying against trans fatty acids...the SEVENTIES...and nobody listened until a few years ago...)

Just realize the vet is working for you and tell him/herhow you want to proceed based on your own knowledge. You can get some good info here. How many of us remembered annual rabies, annual combo shots until people had enough and the AAHA decided to change their guidelines?

This is a mainline document AAHA 2011 vaccine guidelines which should give you things to think about.
http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf

Dr Schulz who has spearheaded a reduction in vaccines with the AAHA and is a professor at University of Wisconsin
New guidelines address over-vaccination issue - chicagotribune.com

Now vets will shake their head if you want to space things out and think you are silly but it is no hardship on them but your vet likely will NOT have individual parvo and distemper vaccines so the DHPP at one time, the Lepto at another and the rabies at yet another will still provide the same protection but not put such a burden on the pups immune system all at once same time. Individual vaccines are available for distemper, parvo and lepto but many vets do not stock them.

Just to be clear - if you give 2 lepto shots NOW, after a year your dog is NOT protected and if you go out two more years it would take 2 lepto shots again to reimmunize. You can read the lepto protocol. Puppies and small dogs are more likely to have a reaction to lepto. A 5 lbs dog get the same shot as a 150lb behemoth. It also discusses 4 servovar vaccines vs. 2 servovar vaccines and some DHLPP still have only 2 servovars.

Lepto has improved but it and rabies are both shots more likely to cause extreme reactions and it just makes sense not to give them at the same time....


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## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

Thank you all for such great information! 

What constitutes "over vaccinating?" Is it getting a bunch of different types of vaccines, getting too many vaccines at once, or both?

I am teeter tottering on the Leptospirosis vaccine. Is getting a Lepto shot EVERY year over-vaccinating? I have a 2 year old son and just worry because it is transmissible to humans. If it was just me I probably would not be as concerned. My vet says that dogs can get it in the city and not just dogs in wooded, wildlife areas. They say rats and such can be infected and puddles in your backyard are susceptible. I am so torn on this one. :help:

Also, is it necessary to do a booster of the DHPP every 3 years or just rabies?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RoxyGirl2012 said:


> Thank you all for such great information!
> 
> What constitutes "over vaccinating?" Is it getting a bunch of different types of vaccines, getting too many vaccines at once, or both?


I think it's a combination of both. Space the shots out to give their bodies times to adjust like stated above.



RoxyGirl2012 said:


> Also, is it necessary to do a booster of the DHPP every 3 years or just rabies?


Rabies is required by law. You will have to abide by the laws of your state. Some states will accept a titer in place of a shot, however, I think if your dog bites someone or is bitten, you will be required to quarantine.

DHPP - There are so many arguments out there on this. Jax had her puppy shots, her 1 yr booster. At 4 1/2 yrs, I titered and her titers show she will probably never need another vaccination. Read Dr. Dodds protocol, and the AAHA guidelines written by Dr. Schultz. IMO, they don't need the DHPP every 3 years and I'm comfortable with that decision. I will not vaccinate our senior Boxer and refused the rabies vaccine for her as well. We are illegal but I'm confident her immunity to it is fine and at 13 years old, I'm not putting any other toxins in her body. Others are not comfortable with those decisions and still want to vaccinate every 3 years. Do the research and do what you feel is right for your dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The lepto vaccines do NOT prevent the dogs from shedding spirochetes. They can still pick up lepto and have a milder infection. Only the Merial Recombitek is demonstrated to prevent shedding and only for the specified strains. 

You will have to decide what to do about DHPP. Your vet will suggest every three years. You can see immunity up to 7 or more years, probably lifetime reported in the AAHA document. Not a fringe group. A mainline group of veterinarians. 

Ask your vet which species are causing the lepto infections in your area. Bet he does not know because they just assume lepto if a dog has the symptoms. Here is an artilcle on bratislava.

Leptospirosis

Thing is - if your child goes anyplace where there is lepto, he does not need a dog to pick it up! The CDC, however, has quit having people report human cases so what does that tell us? Your son is not likely to drink water out of puddles visited by rats but I bet he will have scratches on his skin and will get wet outside playing. The lepto vaccine cuts, but does not eliminate your risk because bratislava, hardjo, and grippo are coming up in testing and not impacted by the vaccine. 

I don't think any of us can tell you if once a year lepto is overvaccinating. Just realize its effectiveness is limited.

To me it is overvaccinating to give a cocktail of vaccines all at one time, or vaccinating for things that are really not that serious, but they probably did that to your son as an infant! Lepto really is a scary disease.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This disease is constantly on my radar so some new info-this is an article not just an abstract

2010 ACVIM Small Animal Consensus Statement on Leptospirosis: Diagnosis, Epidemiology, Treatment, and Prevention

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/3/05-0809_article.htm


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Now this one is interesting. Several puppies actually died during the study before being exposed to the bacteria but after immunization but it was not attributed TO the immunizaiton. The one tested her has no adjuvants which are the primary source of vaccine reactions.

A novel tetravalent Leptospira bacterin protects against infection and shedding following challenge in dogs -- Klaasen et al. -- Veterinary Record

Do note the pups were challenged a mere three weeks after immunization.


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## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

Jocoyn, thank you for taking the time to post these informational Web sites about Leptospirosis. That is very much appreciated, as it is great to gain information from those that have done research on this.

Gosh, it is such a tough call...I don't know how I am going to decide this one. I do not like the idea of giving a vaccine every year...

What is the approximate cost for titer testing?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I was quoted $115.00 per titer by my vet. As of right now I will only titer for distemper and parvo. The cost varies by region.

Here's a past link:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/191156-titers-test-costs-2.html


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The lepto is and will continue to be a challenge for me as my dogs work in the areas (swamps, urban areas, etc.) where lepto is likely to occur, rats and other vermin exist (human remains - dog is cadaver dog on SAR team), and the climate is condusive (warm muggy South Carolina).

It is a real struggle about what to do, and I do keep a close eye on my dogs and would not hesitate to test and flood them with antibiotics if they developed symptoms. I am cautiously using a homeopathic approach using nosodes (another thread) but there are stories of their effectiveness in Cuba and Haiti for humans........but I just don't know......but you can't advise someone else on what to do there!

It would be nice if it was all black and white. We are facing a whole lot of emerging diseases and we can't immunize our way out of it, I think. (Start reading about ticks!)


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## RoxyGirl2012 (Dec 21, 2012)

I have decided I would like to follow Dr. Dodd's Vaccination Protocol. I think I will then be leaving out the Leptospirosis vaccination...


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

My vet will NOT give the lepto injection unless the dog is going to visit an area that has the disease and even then she's hesitant to do so.

My guys get vaccinated every three years with the rabies and other vaccinations being separated by a year to 18 months. My seniors only get rabies.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I actually have a bottle of lepto nosodes (homeopathic) that I am going to start this month. It has been a tough decision for me but I feel that way I won't mask the infection and CAN get a test result if my dog is infected but it means judicious monitoring. You can run regular tick panes for the dogs but not for lepto

The human lepto prevention protocol is 200mg of doxycycline once a week and not a vaccine......no known doxy resistant strains..... Makes you wonder. 
CDC quit tracking lepto as well this is an old report though and I have heard those NOT in the canine 4 way vaccine are more frequent now. 
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/3/pdfs/05-0809.pdf

Good article on tick borne diseases - lots of nasty stuff out there to protect from no immunizations against tick disease. Some protocols call for single dose doxy for humans after a tick bite regardless. 

Tick-Borne Disease FAQ


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