# Fake Euro Titles



## Blitzkrieg1

Since people where asking..


When I hear "breeder is sending dog to Germany for titles" I think fake title.


Why?
1. There are plenty of trainers here that title dogs
2. The cost of simply shipping the dog to and from Germany is practically the same as what some trainers here charge for the titling
3. Midnight trials and interpretive judging/helper work are a well known Euro pass time in the SL world
4. The above is not so readily found in North America...hence why you have to ship your ****ter to Germany for that title


Case in point ... apparently these all had titles! Must have been an off day.










Don't get your panties in a bunch kids many of the dogs in the video could be titled with training and a ton of prep work. Whether they should be breeding is another topic all together. 


The important thing is everyone had fun out there....:grin2:


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## Sabis mom

That was sad.
That one dog cowering and then slinking to it's handler. That was painful to watch. 
If your dog is that devastated you have either chosen the wrong dog or you seriously screwed up training. 
Aside from the obviously lack of training a couple of those dogs were seriously frightened. And the one dog looked like it tried to go for the helpers face.
In your opinion could any of those dogs be successful?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sabis mom said:


> That was sad.
> That one dog cowering and then slinking to it's handler. That was painful to watch.
> If your dog is that devastated you have either chosen the wrong dog or you seriously screwed up training.
> Aside from the obviously lack of training a couple of those dogs were seriously frightened. And the one dog looked like it tried to go for the helpers face.
> In your opinion could any of those dogs be successful?



Depends on what you define as successful. Could they have looked more presentable? Yes.


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## Sabis mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Depends on what you define as successful. Could they have looked more presentable? Yes.


No i mean actually successful. Do any of them appear suited for this from what you see?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sabis mom said:


> No i mean actually successful. Do any of them appear suited for this from what you see?



There are a few in there that you could probably do ok with in IPO (not competitive) but most of them wouldn't be worth the amount of work it would require.. 
None would make Police dogs.


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## Sabis mom

THats what I thought. Thanks.

If this is what is being titled what impact will this have on the kennels there and importing in general?


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## melissajancie

I think one also has to be flexible. In other words you might like a particular dog sport but your dog is just not cut out for that. Well that is the chance you take when you buy a puppy. So if your dog isn't enjoying that sport - you should be flexible to switch to another sport that your dog enjoys. You can't force a dog to enjoy a sport and you won't be successful by insisting.


I learned this with horses. I bought a basically untrained horse - she was off the track and then used as a brood mare before I purchased her. I wanted to do hunters but she really hated it. I switched over to Dressage - something I wasn't particularly interested in and she absolutely loved it! Then I bred her years later and the filly totally enjoyed dressage but I was willing to switch to another discipline if needed. You always hear happy wife - happy life - well the same applies to horses - keep them happy and you are less apt to end up with a sour horse with a negative attitude towards work


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## wolfstraum

To many in showlines, the IPO requirement is a nuisance and the only activity that "matters" is show placements. All they need is an IPO1 to be bred - in Germany you can koer as long as you get a 70-70-80, here you can breed without a koer so 70-70-70 will put the female into the whelping box. And with many clubs and judges, that 70-70-70 is not so hard to come by....problem is that people see what they want to see and justify and excuse what should be unacceptable behaviors.


I disagree that there are "many places" here to send a dog for training/titles....not so.....many showline females go to Germany, are shown a few times, rushed through a title, koer classed, bred to a big name male and brought home to a live of breeding. The opportunities for this in Germany are numerous....most serious show people here have a relationship with a breeder in Germany who does or oversees this process for them...a male might be campaigned over there and shown at the Sieger show to come home with credentials making him more attractive for stud or with exposure beneficial for his show career here under SV judges. The value of and the demand for the offspring of a showline dog increases significantly with a good show record in Germany.


Lee


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## SuperG

Interesting video.....I assumed there would be some fails...

I have a stupid question.......it seemed most every dog when running in for the bite....would raise its ears...from a lowered position..... as it neared the decoy ........is this a telltale of the dog becoming indecisive?


SuperG


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## Baillif

Welp. That was fun to watch.


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## mycobraracr

I've seen a trial here that wasn't much better under an SV judge. The helper baited the dogs into the blind, called them in on the escape and so on. Tracking was done standing basically on top of the dog. Even the competitors came off the field saying "well we didn't pass today". Then they ALL received "V" rated scores. Yes this is a true story that I witnessed first hand.


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## Caroline5

The wife of a well respected gsd judge told me the following just last week. 
No. The buying of wins and money to judges, is unique to the German Sieger show. It is the most widely know, least talked about scandal in the world. It is also widely known that the German Sieger and Siegerin are pre ordained, no surprises. Our Nationals at least is still widely based on judging. Not that there isn't a lot of politics, b/c there is. But that is with any show, any venue. It doesn't matter if you show dogs, cats, birds or even cars. Politics happen.


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## islanddog

My completely inexpert opinion (I don't do ipo), but that looked like a bunch of scared dogs (actually running away) with problems controlling their hind-quarters (wiping out on turns, etc.).
Other thing I noticed, more disturbing to me, because, hey, if someone wants a show dog fine, so they don't like doing protection work, fine, BUT did these dogs not also look scared of their handlers? 
I've always enjoyed watching dogs do protection work, police trials, schutz, a few times in person, or on video. The dogs always looked 'in' to it. And when they were with their handlers, they look like magic is falling from the sky above the handlers head, and they look excited to do their thing, very much a joy to watch--this was not.


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## zetti

islanddog said:


> My completely inexpert opinion (I don't do ipo), but that looked like a bunch of scared dogs (actually running away) with problems controlling their hind-quarters (wiping out on turns, etc.).
> Other thing I noticed, more disturbing to me, because, hey, if someone wants a show dog fine, so they don't like doing protection work, fine, BUT did these dogs not also look scared of their handlers?
> I've always enjoyed watching dogs do protection work, police trials, schutz, a few times in person, or on video. The dogs always looked 'in' to it. And when they were with their handlers, they look like magic is falling from the sky above the handlers head, and they look excited to do their thing, very much a joy to watch--this was not.


'Joy in the work', that's how they're supposed to look. IPO should be all about the bond between dog and handler as much as a test of the dog's skills in tracking, obedience and protection. The judge is supposed to be looking for courage, hardness and fighting instinct. That's how we preserve the character of the breed.


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## Nigel

Lol at handler 1246's dog.


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## islanddog

zetti said:


> 'Joy in the work', that's how they're supposed to look. IPO should be all about the bond between dog and handler as much as a test of the dog's skills in tracking, obedience and protection. The judge is supposed to be looking for courage, hardness and fighting instinct. That's how we preserve the character of the breed.


So then my inexpert opinion is bang on, or is there some 'joy in work' in that video that I'm missing. I just didn't see it there. Just wondering what your opinion of the dogs in the video is.

Yes, I love the protection sports because of the 'joy in work' on display.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I have seen obedience routines where the dog forges, checks himself back flinching in anticipation of a leash correction. Pretty sure that was wgsl dogs too. 

Its interesting because my female loves getting hit when you are playing with her. You should see the way she plays with my husband, mid tug he is slapping her around and she just eats it up, bites harder. I swear she enjoys a game of tug better if he slaps her around a little. He is not abusing her lol, I don't know if I am describing it properly but I can guarantee if some guy raised a rubber stick over his head she would be like "come on, i dare you to HIT me!!!" But this is the same dog that I knocked senseless with that frozen toy by accident when she was a year old and that didnt even deter her from wanting to play right then even though I really thought I must have knocked all her teeth out, she even looked dazed, but was still begging me to throw it.


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## lhczth

Caroline5 said:


> It is also widely known that the German Sieger and Siegerin are pre ordained, no surprises.



Actually it has always been that way. The dogs are heavily campaigned, their offspring heavily scrutinized and choices made on what changes the SV is wanting to make in the breed. It is far more than just a dog show as seen in the AKC world. 

I don't condone what the Sieger show has become. These dogs were supposed to be the best of the best, but politics has always influenced the winners.


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## SuperG

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have seen obedience routines where the dog forges, checks himself back flinching in anticipation of a leash correction. Pretty sure that was wgsl dogs too.
> 
> Its interesting because my female loves getting hit when you are playing with her. You should see the way she plays with my husband, mid tug he is slapping her around and she just eats it up, bites harder. I swear she enjoys a game of tug better if he slaps her around a little. He is not abusing her lol, I don't know if I am describing it properly but I can guarantee if some guy raised a rubber stick over his head she would be like "come on, i dare you to HIT me!!!" But this is the same dog that I knocked senseless with that frozen toy by accident when she was a year old and that didnt even deter her from wanting to play right then even though I really thought I must have knocked all her teeth out, she even looked dazed, but was still begging me to throw it.


Your post makes me laugh and feel better about drilling my dog with the tennis ball.....I give it a ride with a golf club....1 wood...she's about 30 feet from me when I drive the tennis ball.....on occasion there's an errant shot that comes to close to her ...but she's charging at it...making a play on it like a goalie.....BOOM....she gets drilled....and as you say...she comes back instantly begging for more.

SuperG


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## John C.

Thanks for sharing these videos, even if they were painful to watch, particularly as someone who owns and loves the look of WGSL dogs. I'm sure some of these dogs (and their offspring) make good pets, but they simply don't belong on the schutzhund field. Honestly, just watching them heel with their owners and it was obvious that they were mediocre sports dogs. Zero focus. Zero drive. They basically looked like Golden Retrievers who had been stuck in a GSD suite.


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## Nigel

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have seen obedience routines where the dog forges, checks himself back flinching in anticipation of a leash correction. Pretty sure that was wgsl dogs too.
> 
> Its interesting because my female loves getting hit when you are playing with her. You should see the way she plays with my husband, mid tug he is slapping her around and she just eats it up, bites harder. I swear she enjoys a game of tug better if he slaps her around a little. He is not abusing her lol, I don't know if I am describing it properly but I can guarantee if some guy raised a rubber stick over his head she would be like "come on, i dare you to HIT me!!!" But this is the same dog that I knocked senseless with that frozen toy by accident when she was a year old and that didnt even deter her from wanting to play right then even though I really thought I must have knocked all her teeth out, she even looked dazed, but was still begging me to throw it.




Our mix of lines girl had her lower left canine shattered during a collision with our WL male. I was picking up the flirt pole and both came in running for it, stupid of me to not see the potential for injury. It was an audible "pop" and I'm near deaf, but still heard it clearly. It didn't stop her from battling with our male for possession. Once she's after something she won't quit and once she has a hold of something she won't out, she's like a badger, lol She will perform other commands while latched on, just not out.


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## Baillif

Meh, most of those dogs are happy in the work, they're just afraid of the stick. They aren't prancy but it has a lot to do with the conformation. It's bad training in any dog that bites but won't let go or pecks and nerve issue in any that comes off or fears the stick. 

Even many of the ones that are afraid of stick pressure are intrigued enough to stick around. Reminds me of when a dog finds a snake and isn't sure how to deal with it so they Circle around


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## Caroline5

lhczth said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also widely known that the German Sieger and Siegerin are pre ordained, no surprises.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it has always been that way. The dogs are heavily campaigned, their offspring heavily scrutinized and choices made on what changes the SV is wanting to make in the breed. It is far more than just a dog show as seen in the AKC world.
> 
> I don't condone what the Sieger show has become. These dogs were supposed to be the best of the best, but politics has always influenced the winners.
Click to expand...

Money helps too.


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## selzer

I would be interested in knowing how many dogs were tested that day, if they were all on the same day, maybe that weekend. Whatever. Because, yes, you probably will have some bloopers, but that wasn't all the dogs, just all the dogs that failed miserably. Was that a dozen out of 100 or a dozen out of a thousand. From my German friend, it isn't abnormal to have classes of 600 dogs, where here we are lucky to have 6 dogs in a class.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Can someone tell me in that one exercise where the guy pops out of the blind and the dog runs in to bite: are they supposed to hang on until outed or retrieved by the handler or are they supposed to out when he stops moving?

I couldnt hear commands anyway because I watched it with no sound since my dog gets all riled up when he hears dogs barking on video and he was sleeping after tracking and I didn't want to wake him.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Nigel said:


> Our mix of lines girl had her lower left canine shattered during a collision with our WL male. I was picking up the flirt pole and both came in running for it, stupid of me to not see the potential for injury. It was an audible "pop" and I'm near deaf, but still heard it clearly. It didn't stop her from battling with our male for possession. Once she's after something she won't quit and once she has a hold of something she won't out, she's like a badger, lol She will perform other commands while latched on, just not out.


Like a badger, yep, thats exactly how I would describe mine. Another day she came merrily prancing back with her ball and blood coming out of her mouth. She shattered her own tooth, no idea how, and didn't even feel it


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## carmspack

so , if a dog , in the routine , leaves the ring and ends up in the midst of the crowd -- (not fear, not aggressive) -- what should happen ?

the judge would ? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx .what?

like mycobraracr -- several consecutive trials recently each one having --- performances that everyone said NQ and should have been . One had a do a dog that was like the same ends of a magnet - invisible force which kept him from getting close to the decoy . When he finally did he was stretched out , just the frontal teeth and chewy, like social grooming --- and the dog got pronounced ,.


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## carmspack

here is what you were looking at in the video

2014 SV BSZS Nürnberg ------ those were the show line dogs in the working phase for the SV show for Sieger


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## cdwoodcox

Sending a dog away to get titled, reminds me of the guys who stop on the side of the road and cut the head/ rack off a roadkill deer and have it mounted. Want the trophy / bragging but no work put in. The handler and dogs had none of the bond needed to keep the dog engaged. The dogs had no desire to work for them.


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## selzer

cdwoodcox said:


> Sending a dog away to get titled, reminds me of the guys who stop on the side of the road and cut the head/ rack off a roadkill deer and have it mounted. Want the trophy / bragging but no work put in. The handler and dogs had none of the bond needed to keep the dog engaged. The dogs had no desire to work for them.


A good friend of mine and a breeder told me once, what you can do with your dogs is not so important as what others can do with your dogs. Sure the dogs know and trust me, of course they will let me put meds into a painful ear, dress a wound, give a pill, saw away at their ear mats. Of course I can take them to class and they will be fine. But how does a pet person do with them. 

Show people rarely show their own dogs in the conformation ring. It is a competition and professional handlers know how to work the ring to their advantage. They take the dog for a number of months and show the dog. That's why that woman in Florida had all those dogs in her vehicle that died. She was a professional handler, she got in late, left the dogs in the van and went to sleep. By the time she woke up, the dogs were dead. Evenso, often times show people go to the show to see their dog be shown, but the dog lives with the handler. And sometimes, the owner brings the dog to the show and the handler works the dog in the ring. But an owner, even if they want to show themselves, only has so many years to do so. At some point, they won't be able to run around the ring and show the dog to the level of the dog. They will detract from the dog and it will cost them points. 

Sending a dog to a training facility to be trained is something we generally preach against. But it makes sense for some people. I had a pup with an 80 year old guy. He paid for training and the dog was trained to be a service dog for him, by then he was wheel chair bound. People will send a dog to be trained. It isn't uncommon. They will go on vacation, the dog to the trainers. The dog is boarded and trained -- win-win. 

There may be some contempt for the necessity of IPO titles for breeding, by people of showline dogs. Our dogs are capable, but that is not what we are aiming for. So, send the dog off to be titled. If someone other than the owner can train the dog to the level of being titled within a couple of months and get her titled, and sent back, then it says something about her character. You do not need to be familiar with IPO to own a titled dog. It doesn't mean the title was fake, it just means that you were not the one that trained and titled the dog. You are busy with other dogs.


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## cdwoodcox

selzer said:


> A good friend of mine and a breeder told me once, what you can do with your dogs is not so important as what others can do with your dogs. Sure the dogs know and trust me, of course they will let me put meds into a painful ear, dress a wound, give a pill, saw away at their ear mats. Of course I can take them to class and they will be fine. But how does a pet person do with them.
> 
> Show people rarely show their own dogs in the conformation ring. It is a competition and professional handlers know how to work the ring to their advantage. They take the dog for a number of months and show the dog. That's why that woman in Florida had all those dogs in her vehicle that died. She was a professional handler, she got in late, left the dogs in the van and went to sleep. By the time she woke up, the dogs were dead. Evenso, often times show people go to the show to see their dog be shown, but the dog lives with the handler. And sometimes, the owner brings the dog to the show and the handler works the dog in the ring. But an owner, even if they want to show themselves, only has so many years to do so. At some point, they won't be able to run around the ring and show the dog to the level of the dog. They will detract from the dog and it will cost them points.
> 
> Sending a dog to a training facility to be trained is something we generally preach against. But it makes sense for some people. I had a pup with an 80 year old guy. He paid for training and the dog was trained to be a service dog for him, by then he was wheel chair bound. People will send a dog to be trained. It isn't uncommon. They will go on vacation, the dog to the trainers. The dog is boarded and trained -- win-win.
> 
> There may be some contempt for the necessity of IPO titles for breeding, by people of showline dogs. Our dogs are capable, but that is not what we are aiming for. So, send the dog off to be titled. If someone other than the owner can train the dog to the level of being titled within a couple of months and get her titled, and sent back, then it says something about her character. You do not need to be familiar with IPO to own a titled dog. It doesn't mean the title was fake, it just means that you were not the one that trained and titled the dog. You are busy with other dogs.


I suppose it can be relevant to personal situations and goals. I myself could never send a dog off to get trained. But, I don't do the dog shows, makes sense that a dog for show wouldn't necessarily need to do IPO. Just like an IPO dog wouldn't need to be good in the show ring. 
So if show dogs don't necessarily need to do IPO or protection isn't a goal of show. why don't the show people prove their dogs in another fashion. It almost seems like sport dogs and show dogs could almost be two separate breeds. Just makes sense to prove show dogs in another fashion.


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## mycobraracr

Well, as for sending dogs off to get titled. I don't know how much I believe those. A friend of mine couldn't work her own dogs at one point so sent one to Germany to get titled. It came back three months later with an IPO3. Possible? Maybe, but highly unlikely even though it's a nice dog. She didn't believe it either and ended up putting an IPO3 on it herself. In fairness of accuracy, I did not get this info directly from her, but her best friend who I'm also really good friends with.


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## onyx'girl

selzer said:


> There may be some contempt for the necessity of IPO titles for breeding, by people of showline dogs. Our dogs are capable,* but that is not what we are aiming for.* So, send the dog off to be titled. If someone other than the owner can train the dog to the level of being titled within a couple of months and get her titled, and sent back, then it says something about her character. You do not need to be familiar with IPO to own a titled dog. It doesn't mean the title was fake, it just means that you were not the one that trained and titled the dog. You are busy with other dogs.


What are you aiming for, then? A two month send away to get a title is not fair to the dog, IMO. 
IF you do not title your own dogs that you are breeding, you don't see the strengths and weaknesses when the dog is placed under pressure. The breeders that actually work their dogs know these things and can make better breeding decisions based on the way the dog works(not just trial scores determine the dogs heart). 

I don't look at a breeder that buys up titled dogs to breed the same way I look at one that puts the time, sweat and tears into trialing and titling themselves. 

Anyone can buy a dog with titles, but not just anyone/dog can legitimately pass a trial...and even then, other trainers, seeing the dog in training will know if that dog is strong or weak. Not to mention if the handler is not the best trainer. There are always excuses, but those that are on the field at least put that effort in. Not all dogs with a title should be bred, regardless. Titles are no longer a breeding test.


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> What are you aiming for, then? A two month send away to get a title is not fair to the dog, IMO.
> IF you do not title your own dogs that you are breeding, you don't see the strengths and weaknesses when the dog is placed under pressure. The breeders that actually work their dogs know these things and can make better breeding decisions based on the way the dog works(not just trial scores determine the dogs heart).
> 
> I don't look at a breeder that buys up titled dogs to breed the same way I look at one that puts the time, sweat and tears into trialing and titling themselves.
> 
> Anyone can buy a dog with titles, but not just anyone/dog can legitimately pass a trial...and even then, other trainers, seeing the dog in training will know if that dog is strong or weak. Not to mention if the handler is not the best trainer. There are always excuses, but those that are on the field at least put that effort in. Not all dogs with a title should be bred, regardless. *Titles are no longer a breeding test*.


Good. 

I bought a dog because she became available. She was titled. That wasn't exactly what we were talking about. We were talking about sending your dogs across the pond to be titled. You are right, you will not gain the information first hand. But, with a working relationship with your handler, you should be able to listen to what he or she tells you about your dog, and add that to the opinion you drafted of the dog, understanding the variables involved. 

I have trained my titled dog, whoo hooo, I deserve a cookie. That bitch is the same dog I opened the crate and put a line on the day she entered this country. When I took her to classes she was no easier and no harder to train than any of my other dogs. But this is so off topic. 

2 months is not fair to the dog? In what way? I think show line people will send a dog off for maybe six months, maybe longer. These dogs are adaptable. We make it hard on them with our long faces and sad aspect, and often it is harder on us than it is for them. We think they will crumble up and die if they don't have us. When, in reality, they look for us for a few days, but then they adapt to their new situation. And when they see us again, even 4 years later, they remember us, are excited, and curl up on the couch with us, with their big pregnant belly, sleep with us all night, and let us deliver her puppies the next day. 

But these dogs can't go off for 2 months to be trained/titled?


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## onyx'girl

> But these dogs can't go off for 2 months to be trained/titled


It is a journey....not a sprint. But sure, it is doable. Shaky foundation doesn't hold up in the long run, though.


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> It is a journey....not a sprint. But sure, it is doable. Shaky foundation doesn't hold up in the long run, though.


Everyone is different. I don't understand why people have to rush to prong collars and e-collars. It's a journey, but everyone is in such a hurry. Everyone is different. You want to be there every step of that title, another person may want a well-trained dog, and is ok with skipping portions of it. They have the money, do it. At the end of the day, the dog is a dog. The dog will be fine, if the temperament is good.


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## Nigel

Baillif said:


> Meh, most of those dogs are happy in the work, they're just afraid of the stick. They aren't prancy but it has a lot to do with the conformation. *It's bad training* in any dog that bites but won't let go or pecks and nerve issue in any that comes off or fears the stick.
> 
> Even many of the ones that are afraid of stick pressure are intrigued enough to stick around. Reminds me of when a dog finds a snake and isn't sure how to deal with it so they Circle around


most likely the bolded in our case or at least something I should have dealt with differently from the get go. No problems with my other 3, just her.


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## onyx'girl

selzer said:


> Everyone is different. I don't understand why people have to rush to prong collars and e-collars. It's a journey, but everyone is in such a hurry. Everyone is different. You want to be there every step of that title, another person may want a well-trained dog, and is ok with skipping portions of it. They have the money, do it. At the end of the day, the dog is a dog. The dog will be fine, if the temperament is good.


The dogs in the videos were well trained then? Skipping portions of what? When you actually go through the process, I think your opinion would be of more value. The money to do what, buy a title?


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## lhczth

cdwoodcox said:


> So if show dogs don't necessarily need to do IPO or protection isn't a goal of show. why don't the show people prove their dogs in another fashion. It almost seems like sport dogs and show dogs could almost be two separate breeds. Just makes sense to prove show dogs in another fashion.



This is the German Sieger show. These dogs are supposed to be the best of the best. These are titled dogs and yet even the tops dogs barely pass this "test" that puts no pressure on the dogs at all. The Sieger show is not supposed to be just another beauty contest like the AKC conformation ring. This show was and is used to influence the direction of the breed. The fact that it has become such a farce is why there is such a huge divide in the GSD world. 

A sound stable GSD with at least some working drives should be able to pass the IPO1. It is now a pretty weak test yet it still shows a dog's ability to work independently (tracking), is willing to work with their handler, is structurally sound enough to jump 1 meter and climb a 6' A frame, is willing to retrieve an object all with a happy upbeat attitude, then go into a phase where they must work independently, where they must be able to confront a man (even if most look at him as a play object), be able to easily transition from biting to guarding, to handle some pressure from the helper yet still be able to "hear" their handler. The problem is that many dogs CAN'T pass this simple weak test and so their owners never try or poo poo it because they know their dogs lack even some basic working drives or enough strength of character to do so. 

BTW, go hunt down the Sieger show work from last year. There are a few not bad dogs, but none of the dogs are pressured during the "performance" test. Everything is kept in prey and there is not one stick hit during the whole test. Just some guy barely waving a stick around (prey) and moving sideways (prey) so the dogs hopefully will bite. 

Just an FYI. in the European world of dogs shows (like the Sieger show) the dogs are not shipped off to spend months with their handlers. This is not the AKC. Professional handlers are used, but the dogs I was around lived with their owners. The dogs are trained extensively so the dogs know the routine, the owners know what is needed for their double handling, and the handlers know how best to present the dog.


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## zetti

lhczth said:


> This is the German Sieger show. These dogs are supposed to be the best of the best. These are titled dogs and yet even the tops dogs barely pass this "test" that puts no pressure on the dogs at all. The Sieger show is not supposed to be just another beauty contest like the AKC conformation ring. This show was and is used to influence the direction of the breed. The fact that it has become such a farce is why there is such a huge divide in the GSD world.
> 
> A sound stable GSD with at least some working drives should be able to pass the IPO1. It is now a pretty weak test yet it still shows a dog's ability to work independently (tracking), is willing to work with their handler, is structurally sound enough to jump 1 meter and climb a 6' A frame, is willing to retrieve an object all with a happy upbeat attitude, then go into a phase where they must work independently, where they must be able to confront a man (even if most look at him as a play object), be able to easily transition from biting to guarding, to handle some pressure from the helper yet still be able to "hear" their handler. The problem is that many dogs CAN'T pass this simple weak test and so their owners never try or poo poo it because they know their dogs lack even some basic working drives or enough strength of character to do so.
> 
> BTW, go hunt down the Sieger show work from last year. There are a few not bad dogs, but none of the dogs are pressured during the "performance" test. Everything is kept in prey and there is not one stick hit during the whole test. Just some guy barely waving a stick around (prey) and moving sideways (prey) so the dogs hopefully will bite.
> 
> Just an FYI. in the European world of dogs shows (like the Sieger show) the dogs are not shipped off to spend months with their handlers. This is not the AKC. Professional handlers are used, but the dogs I was around lived with their owners. The dogs are trained extensively so the dogs know the routine, the owners know what is needed for their double handling, and the handlers know how best to present the dog.


Well said, Lisa.

Speaking of the Sieger Show, is anyone going to the US one this year? It's close enough to home for us (Atlanta), but we're going to skip it. The motel arrangements are nutty this year.


----------



## lhczth

These are the top dogs. Some are OK and at least look like they want to be there.


----------



## lhczth

zetti said:


> Speaking of the Sieger Show, is anyone going to the US one this year? It's close enough to home for us (Atlanta), but we're going to skip it. The motel arrangements are nutty this year.


I was going to go. I was encouraged by the judge doing the females to show Elena, but after adding up the costs I just can't justify the expense. The hotel costs alone are crazy even though, as regional breed warden, I would get at least some of my expenses covered for working the show too. Just too costly for me.


----------



## Muskeg

The structure on the back end of those dogs is what struck me the most. There is nothing like that in nature, very un-natural and inefficient. But I think I understand what is meant by "titles" now, in Europe, a bit better.


----------



## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> The dogs in the videos were well trained then? Skipping portions of what? When you actually go through the process, I think your opinion would be of more value. The money to do what, buy a title?


Portions of the training. The dog doesn't skip it, it is taken on by someone else. There are icons in the breed, what, do they stop having GSDs when they can no longer physically keep up with the dog? What a flipping waste that would be. The moment people actually have enough knowledge and experience to really make a difference they should retire from breeding because they cannot run behind their own dogs on the field. 

People send dogs away for training and titling, that's the subject. No one is saying to you that you can't buy only from breeders who do it themselves. That is your choice in a free country. But knocking everyone else, well, whatever. That's one of those things that says more about the speaker than what is actually spoken.


----------



## Rallhaus

HATE, HATE, HATE fake titles!
I've seen them in both Show and Working Line dogs.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

HATE, HATE, HATE fake hip/elbow certifications too.


----------



## onyx'girl

> I have trained my titled dog, whoo hooo, I deserve a cookie.





selzer said:


> Portions of the training. The dog doesn't skip it, it is taken on by someone else. There are icons in the breed, what, do they stop having GSDs when they can no longer physically keep up with the dog? What a flipping waste that would be. The moment people actually have enough knowledge and experience to really make a difference they should retire from breeding because they cannot run behind their own dogs on the field.
> 
> People send dogs away for training and titling, that's the subject. No one is saying to you that you can't buy only from breeders who do it themselves. That is your choice in a free country. But knocking everyone else, well, whatever. That's one of those things that says more about the speaker than what is actually spoken.


Knocking no one, but knowing what it takes to put a title on a dog was the reason I quoted and responded to your posts. When you actually do the work, you may have a different perspective of what goes into legit titles and ones that are rushed for the sake of breeding. No one I know of will send away a dog for a title without the goal of using the dog for breeding.


----------



## G-burg

It's all about the money! 

I've seen several dogs that have been sent over seas for titles and the dogs know jack! Theirs names maybe?!


----------



## zetti

lhczth said:


> I was going to go. I was encouraged by the judge doing the females to show Elena, but after adding up the costs I just can't justify the expense. The hotel costs alone are crazy even though, as regional breed warden, I would get at least some of my expenses covered for working the show too. Just too costly for me.


I was a bit horrified by the motel situation. The host motel is fifteen miles from the venue and has a two dog limit. The other motels I got from USCA had strict No Dogs Allowed policies. Though all of the motels permitted guests to have dogs 'on the premises', just not in the rooms or face a $200 fine per dog if you get caught.

Given the values of the dogs competing, I can't imagine that leaving them in cars in the motel lot is going to be acceptable to many people.

We certainly won't do it with ours

I did go when it was in Bakersfield, it was fun, though disturbing.


----------



## carmspack

lhczth said:


> This is the German Sieger show. These dogs are supposed to be the best of the best. These are titled dogs and yet even the tops dogs barely pass this "test" that puts no pressure on the dogs at all. The Sieger show is not supposed to be just another beauty contest like the AKC conformation ring. This show was and is used to influence the direction of the breed. The fact that it has become such a farce is why there is such a huge divide in the GSD world.
> 
> A sound stable GSD with at least some working drives should be able to pass the IPO1. It is now a pretty weak test yet it still shows a dog's ability to work independently (tracking), is willing to work with their handler, is structurally sound enough to jump 1 meter and climb a 6' A frame, is willing to retrieve an object all with a happy upbeat attitude, then go into a phase where they must work independently, where they must be able to confront a man (even if most look at him as a play object), be able to easily transition from biting to guarding, to handle some pressure from the helper yet still be able to "hear" their handler. The problem is that many dogs CAN'T pass this simple weak test and so their owners never try or poo poo it because they know their dogs lack even some basic working drives or enough strength of character to do so.
> 
> BTW, go hunt down the Sieger show work from last year. There are a few not bad dogs, but none of the dogs are pressured during the "performance" test. Everything is kept in prey and there is not one stick hit during the whole test. Just some guy barely waving a stick around (prey) and moving sideways (prey) so the dogs hopefully will bite.
> 
> Just an FYI. in the European world of dogs shows (like the Sieger show) the dogs are not shipped off to spend months with their handlers. This is not the AKC. Professional handlers are used, but the dogs I was around lived with their owners. The dogs are trained extensively so the dogs know the routine, the owners know what is needed for their double handling, and the handlers know how best to present the dog.


that is precisely why I said "here is what you were looking at in the video

2014 SV BSZS Nürnberg ------ those were the show line dogs in the working phase for the SV show for Sieger"

that's not the training . That is the nature of the dog. 

very sorry state of affairs .


----------



## cdwoodcox

It's in Atlanta right. A person can rent a cabin 45 minutes north of Atlanta that will allow dogs. Then drive down for the day then return back to the cabin afterwards. Unfortunately we have already made our the plans to go down to GA the last week of June or I would have loved to go watch it, if only for a day.


----------



## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> It's in Atlanta right. A person can rent a cabin 45 minutes north of Atlanta that will allow dogs. Then drive down for the day then return back to the cabin afterwards. Unfortunately we have already made our the plans to go down to GA the last week of June or I would have loved to go watch it, if only for a day.


The venue is in Macon, GA. I'm not sure how far that is from Atlanta.


Event Details ? USCA Sieger Show


----------



## cdwoodcox

zetti said:


> The venue is in Macon, GA. I'm not sure how far that is from Atlanta.
> 
> 
> Event Details ? USCA Sieger Show


My bad. I thought I read it was in Atlanta. Mason is an hour and a half south of Atlanta. So that would have been 3 hours from the cabin were staying in.


----------



## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> My bad. I thought I read it was in Atlanta. Mason is an hour and a half south of Atlanta. So that would have been 3 hours from the cabin were staying in.


It's being promoted as if it were in Atlanta. I got tripped up, too. Not your bad.


----------



## cdwoodcox

zetti said:


> The venue is in Macon, GA. I'm not sure how far that is from Atlanta.
> 
> 
> Event Details ? USCA Sieger Show





lhczth said:


> https://youtu.be/PLcVxYNbITA
> 
> These are the top dogs. Some are OK and at least look like they want to be there.


 I was trying to watch this at lunch today and everyone was giving me a hard time for watching a dog show during lunch break. Until I said it's all dogs biting sleeves. Then I had everyone trying to hover over to watch my phone. 
My computer is down right now so I am watching this on my phone, but is he even hitting the dogs.! It looks like he's just waving it above them. I have always beaten my dogs while playing tug even as real young pups. Slapping them or using the leash to slap them a little they love it. Fires them up. Before you know it they're growling and trying to kill the tug. Anyway I would think if they were treated that way it would be better for the bite work. 
And on this video the dogs who done the best also seemed to have the more obedience in general. The one chick didn't even need to leash her dog to leave the decoy. Just heeled away, compared to the one guy who tapped his dog on the back to make sure dog knew he was there so he didn't get bitten leashing the dog.


----------



## lhczth

I have friends with show lines. They work/title some of their own dogs and then send some others away after doing their foundation (for real titles). I know they want to maintain working ability in their dogs, but, IMO, they are fighting a losing battle. Finding dogs with good working genetics is getting to be extremely difficult because the pedigrees are all the same. She has talked about crossing out to a working line dog.


----------



## lhczth

I was shocked at how many working line breeders are now shipping their dogs off for fast titles (though, so far the dogs I know are getting legitimate titles). We have made such a big deal about titles that now we will have to start questioning what we see in the WL dogs too.


----------



## SuperG

So.......what I'm hearing is.....for a few $$$$....I can get some titles on my dog that others would recognize as legit.....instead of making them up?

Nope....for me......I''d rather keep making 'em up........

SuperG


----------



## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> I was shocked at how many working line breeders are now shipping their dogs off for fast titles (though,* so far the dogs I know are getting legitimate titles*). We have made such a big deal about titles that now we will have to start questioning what we see in the WL dogs too.


What is the time frame for the send away to title?

and how are they making proper breeding decisions if they aren't seeing their dogs work during the training? Titles are or should be important, but it has become now about health testing for many breeders and not the dogs ability to think and work. Hunt drive is getting lost, a thinking dog is not important. Robotic flash is the new norm.


----------



## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> Knocking no one, but knowing what it takes to put a title on a dog was the reason I quoted and responded to your posts. When you actually do the work, you may have a different perspective of what goes into legit titles and ones that are rushed for the sake of breeding. No one I know of will send away a dog for a title without the goal of using the dog for breeding.


 
The only reason I own a dog with a Schutzhund title is because she had it when I purchased her. It had no positive bearing on the decision to purchase her. I purchased her from her pedigree and the source was someone a person I trusted knew very well. I agreed to the purchase before seeing a picture of her, or knowing anything about her save her pedigree. No regrets. I was a little nervous about her being trained in protection and not really knowing anything about that particular sport. But she is stable and sweet, no complaints. 

I'm 48 years old. There are no IPO clubs near here for me to get into, if I had the money, and if I was independently wealthy so I didn't have to work all the time. Tough enough to take a 50 minute class on the weekend, because I never know when I will have to work on Saturdays and Sundays as well. 

I think it is safe to say that I will never title a dog in IPO. I've titled many in Rally and some in Obedience. That works for me. I hear about my dogs doing schutzhund or protection sports, or even police work, and that's all well and good. They are not sold with any guaranties in that respect, in fact I steer people away, or tell them flat out, I don't think this one is a candidate for Schutzhund. Sometimes they surprise you though. I have been present when people have worked my dogs on the sleeve and the trainers are impressed with them. Neat stuff. I am not interested in doing it myself. I would rather chase sheep up and down hills, and while I've put Babs on sheep, I don't have the time or resources to do that either. 

If I won the lottery (which I do not play), there are many things I would do, but IPO is not on the list. Herding is. IPO is not right for all people. I expect it is one of those things that you should be committed to when you do it. Doing it half-assed is probably a recipe for disaster. Better not to bother with it. I am not knocking other people who do it. I am not knocking the sport. I really don't care if people knock me for not doing it. I don't really care what strangers on the internet think. "Won't lose a minute of sleeping, worrying about the way things might have been."


----------



## ksotto333

SuperG said:


> So.......what I'm hearing is.....for a few $$$$....I can get some titles on my dog that others would recognize as legit.....instead of making them up?
> 
> Nope....for me......I''d rather keep making 'em up........
> 
> SuperG


Just for you.


----------



## cdwoodcox

selzer said:


> If I won the lottery (which I do not play), there are many things I would do, but IPO is not on the list. Herding is. I don't really care what strangers on the internet think.


Well like the TV commercial says you gotta play to win. 
And strangers on the Internet. I thought everyone on this forum was all friends.


----------



## selzer

cdwoodcox said:


> Well like the TV commercial says you gotta play to win.
> And strangers on the Internet. I thought everyone on this forum was all friends.


When my friends walk down the street, I know them and I say "hi." I wouldn't know a one of ya'all. Ok, I may have met one of the people that isn't on here anymore. 

Yes, there are people that I might consider cyber friends on this site. People whose ideas I can perceive through what they write to be similar to mine, or not totally in opposition to mine; or their respect of people, I respect, and would be willing to be friends with, I still am not going to lose my marbles if they turn on me. I'll just change the channel if need be. I know that sounds cold. But I guess I am too old, and do not look to internet friendships to be a substitute to knowing people and maintaining relationships with friends and family that aren't virtual.

People here are only a portion of the dog-friends I have. Non-dog friends cannot take dog conversations constantly. This site does play a roll in keeping other relationships solid, LOL!


----------



## SuperG

ksotto333 said:


> Just for you.



Boom!........another one on her illustrious list.....


SuperG


----------



## cdwoodcox

selzer said:


> When my friends walk down the street, I know them and I say "hi." I wouldn't know a one of ya'all. Ok, I may have met one of the people that isn't on here anymore.
> 
> Yes, there are people that I might consider cyber friends on this site. People whose ideas I can perceive through what they write to be similar to mine, or not totally in opposition to mine; or their respect of people, I respect, and would be willing to be friends with, I still am not going to lose my marbles if they turn on me. I'll just change the channel if need be. I know that sounds cold. But I guess I am too old, and do not look to internet friendships to be a substitute to knowing people and maintaining relationships with friends and family that aren't virtual.
> 
> People here are only a portion of the dog-friends I have. Non-dog friends cannot take dog conversations constantly. This site does play a roll in keeping other relationships solid, LOL!


 LOL. Probably have a better chance of walking down a street and recognizing someone's dog. 
But yeah I get it. I was just making fun with it.


----------



## ksotto333

selzer said:


> When my friends walk down the street, I know them and I say "hi." I wouldn't know a one of ya'all. Ok, I may have met one of the people that isn't on here anymore.
> 
> Yes, there are people that I might consider cyber friends on this site. People whose ideas I can perceive through what they write to be similar to mine, or not totally in opposition to mine; or their respect of people, I respect, and would be willing to be friends with, I still am not going to lose my marbles if they turn on me. I'll just change the channel if need be. I know that sounds cold. But I guess I am too old, and do not look to internet friendships to be a substitute to knowing people and maintaining relationships with friends and family that aren't virtual.
> 
> People here are only a portion of the dog-friends I have. Non-dog friends cannot take dog conversations constantly. This site does play a roll in keeping other relationships solid, LOL!


I'll chat Indians and Browns with you all day long, and dogs too on the side..:wink2:


----------



## Jack's Dad

ksotto333 said:


> I'll chat Indians and Browns with you all day long, and dogs too on the side..:wink2:


Better you talk dogs then because the Indians and Browns weeelllllllllllll.


----------



## ksotto333

Jack's Dad said:


> Better you talk dogs then because the Indians and Browns weeelllllllllllll.


:smile2:I know, I know but the Indians went to extra innings in the final game of the World Series. Not a basketball fan. The Browns, well once a fan always a fan. There's always next year for us.


----------



## lhczth

@jane, I agree with you. Just saying it is becoming common. It seems to take as long as is needed. Even a breeder that sends their dogs out has to be willing to listen to what the trainer tells them about the dogs. Many are not. They just want the titles. No different than the show people. Very sad state of affairs.


----------



## mycobraracr

lhczth said:


> @jane, I agree with you. Just saying it is becoming common. It seems to take as long as is needed. Even a breeder that sends their dogs out has to be willing to listen to what the trainer tells them about the dogs. Many are not. They just want the titles. No different than the show people. Very sad state of affairs.



Very sad indeed! I had a nice long rant typed out but chose to delete.


----------



## Jack's Dad

@ Onyx'girl.

I know you are a big proponent of HOT breeders but It takes a long time to develop what they are after and their not all after the same kind of GSD. Theprocess can be speeded up by having a good trainer. 

This video showed some pathetic performances and even us amateurs could see that. 
Now if you are at a trial and you see a great performance do you really care who trained the dog? The dog had to have "it" in him or her to begin with.

The whole point is can the breeder consistently produce what they are claiming to produce not who trained or even handled their dogs.

I also want to barf whenever I hear "to better the breed". There are so many versions of whats better for the breed and they mostly involve what each individual or group likes.


----------



## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Better you talk dogs then because the Indians and Browns weeelllllllllllll.


Them's fightin' words, Andy!!!

The Indians are going places. They are awesome! 

The Browns, well, it just isn't nice to kick people when they are down, is it? Unless it is Bill Belichick (sp?). And, yes, once a Browns' fan, always a Browns' fan, and most of us were born that way!


----------



## lhczth

We have probably damaged the breed beyond repair all in the name of "bettering the breed". 

I have no issues with people sending their dogs to be titled as long as the breeder and the trainer are honest with themselves about the dog. 

Breeders who breed titled dogs, have at least worked and titled dogs over the years and then the even rarer HOT breeders can never produce enough puppies for the market in this country. Easier in Europe because it is expected. Here people want dogs and they often are unwilling to wait for a puppy. Our market makes it very easy for puppy producers to take their pretty pet dogs, throw some play titles on them, if at all, and then breed the heck out of them. There are always buyers.


----------



## Jax08

zetti said:


> The venue is in Macon, GA. I'm not sure how far that is from Atlanta.
> 
> 
> Event Details ? USCA Sieger Show


They are driving me nuts on their info. Front page says Atlanta. Venue says Macon. Trainer, who was going to take her WL there, says she thought it was Atlanta but then found out Macon so may not. Pick a city already!


----------



## Jack's Dad

ksotto333 said:


> :smile2:I know, I know but the Indians went to extra innings in the final game of the World Series. Not a basketball fan. The Browns, well once a fan always a fan. There's always next year for us.





selzer said:


> Them's fightin' words, Andy!!!
> 
> The Indians are going places. They are awesome!
> 
> The Browns, well, it just isn't nice to kick people when they are down, is it? Unless it is Bill Belichick (sp?). And, yes, once a Browns' fan, always a Browns' fan, and most of us were born that way!


Oh yeah, forgot about the Indians this year. I guess their just so easy to forget. :grin2:


----------



## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh yeah, forgot about the Indians this year. I guess their just so easy to forget. :grin2:


DARN IT!!!! WHERE'S the UNLIKE button!?!
:grin2:


----------



## Jack's Dad

Too bad I'm an old guy. I was thinking how great to selectively breed the undercoat out. Much time left from brushing and cleaning to do other things. No undercoat, no titling, no special training. This neche would be beating a path to my door.


----------



## mycobraracr

I'm sure some of you saw my rant on FB the other day. My point has been what are we doing to test and truly know our breeding stock? IMO, some sports test the trainer more than the dog, and others test the dog more than training. That's my two cents. At the least in both versions, the owner/breeder is learning about their dog. What motivates it? What makes it work? If all we do is send it out to someone else to train, then no matter how well our communication is, something will get lost in translation. Then we are even further removed from reality. Further removed from how to properly pair a dog and improve on it. No dog is perfect and if we don't push our breeding stock hard enough to understand their weaknesses, then we will never understand how to pair them. But hey what do I know? I'm newer at all this and now days refuse to renew my IPO memberships.


----------



## zetti

Jax08 said:


> They are driving me nuts on their info. Front page says Atlanta. Venue says Macon. Trainer, who was going to take her WL there, says she thought it was Atlanta but then found out Macon so may not. Pick a city already!


It looks like the host club is in Macon. You can always email Pam for clarification.


----------



## zetti

Jack's Dad said:


> @ Onyx'girl.
> 
> I know you are a big proponent of HOT breeders but It takes a long time to develop what they are after and their not all after the same kind of GSD. Theprocess can be speeded up by having a good trainer.
> 
> This video showed some pathetic performances and even us amateurs could see that.
> Now if you are at a trial and you see a great performance do you really care who trained the dog? The dog had to have "it" in him or her to begin with.
> 
> The whole point is can the breeder consistently produce what they are claiming to produce not who trained or even handled their dogs.
> 
> I also want to barf whenever I hear "to better the breed". There are so many versions of whats better for the breed and they mostly involve what each individual or group likes.


Personally, yes, I do care if the dog is HOT.


----------



## zetti

selzer said:


> The only reason I own a dog with a Schutzhund title is because she had it when I purchased her. It had no positive bearing on the decision to purchase her. I purchased her from her pedigree and the source was someone a person I trusted knew very well. I agreed to the purchase before seeing a picture of her, or knowing anything about her save her pedigree. No regrets. I was a little nervous about her being trained in protection and not really knowing anything about that particular sport. But she is stable and sweet, no complaints.
> 
> I'm 48 years old. There are no IPO clubs near here for me to get into, if I had the money, and if I was independently wealthy so I didn't have to work all the time. Tough enough to take a 50 minute class on the weekend, because I never know when I will have to work on Saturdays and Sundays as well.
> 
> I think it is safe to say that I will never title a dog in IPO. I've titled many in Rally and some in Obedience. That works for me. I hear about my dogs doing schutzhund or protection sports, or even police work, and that's all well and good. They are not sold with any guaranties in that respect, in fact I steer people away, or tell them flat out, I don't think this one is a candidate for Schutzhund. Sometimes they surprise you though. I have been present when people have worked my dogs on the sleeve and the trainers are impressed with them. Neat stuff. I am not interested in doing it myself. I would rather chase sheep up and down hills, and while I've put Babs on sheep, I don't have the time or resources to do that either.
> 
> If I won the lottery (which I do not play), there are many things I would do, but IPO is not on the list. Herding is. IPO is not right for all people. I expect it is one of those things that you should be committed to when you do it. Doing it half-assed is probably a recipe for disaster. Better not to bother with it. I am not knocking other people who do it. I am not knocking the sport. I really don't care if people knock me for not doing it. I don't really care what strangers on the internet think. "Won't lose a minute of sleeping, worrying about the way things might have been."


Herding is an acceptable test of breed suitably in lieu of IPO.


----------



## cdwoodcox

Yet, I can't seem to get past why are show people trying to conform to things that they have no desire or need for. If show dogs don't need protection work and I was a show dog breeder I wouldn't bother with an IPO title. Focus on show and looks. 
Show people will buy the good show dogs a lot of the pet people will buy Show dogs. It may be a better deal for both if the dogs don't have aggression. 
Working dogs won't be affected by show dogs not training IPO. 
My Milwaukee drill doesn't have the hammer feature that my Milwaukee hammer drill does . Yet They're both Milwaukee drills. Different purposes. It would be a waste of resources to add the hammer feature to every drill. Unless I am drilling into concrete I don't need the hammer feature. 
I get the breed worthy thing. But some of those dogs look worse by trying it. Even though they may be great show dogs.


----------



## cliffson1

My rant from this thread is the unscrupulous breeders that breed dogs that they KNOW is weak in health or temperament. If I had a nickel for every time I have seen a weak or shy dog that was abused justifying the shyness. I mean the dog woke up as a puppy and hit its head and now it's afraid of everything above it...pleeeeeese! Or the dog was called a name at the dog park and now if it sees another dog it shakes.&#55357;&#56873; The dogs on those videos should never be bred, dogs unsure of themselves in new environments or possessing that worried look when off your home turf should NOT be bred. Breeding these dogs because of color, gait, or even cause I personally like them is a disservice to the breed which is more important than our egotistical likes. This is why there are so many normal people that have abnormal issues with the breed today. This breed used to be one of the most adaptable dogs on the planet that could adjust to about anything....now because we breed so many dogs that would NOT pass the original criteria for breedworthiness, we have these sad state of affairs. It's not about OUR likes or prefaces, but it's about the breed and keeping it true to itself!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I think this 'fake title' thing happens in any breed, in the conformation ring having a handler is the 'norm' especially with gsd's. they tend to 'show' better for someone else. Personally, I wouldn't send my dogs off to be trained. It's so much more satisfying showing your own dog and accomplishing whatever it is you set out to do. 

I think anyone 'breeding' dogs, should also be showing / titling their dogs in whatever venue it is they are suited for. If they aren't, well it doesn't tell me much about what your producing. Of course if your producing alot of titled dogs, well that's defintely a plus. Just mho


----------



## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> Yet, I can't seem to get past why are show people trying to conform to things that they have no desire or need for. If show dogs don't need protection work and I was a show dog breeder I wouldn't bother with an IPO title. Focus on show and looks.
> Show people will buy the good show dogs a lot of the pet people will buy Show dogs. It may be a better deal for both if the dogs don't have aggression.
> Working dogs won't be affected by show dogs not training IPO.
> My Milwaukee drill doesn't have the hammer feature that my Milwaukee hammer drill does . Yet They're both Milwaukee drills. Different purposes. It would be a waste of resources to add the hammer feature to every drill. Unless I am drilling into concrete I don't need the hammer feature.
> I get the breed worthy thing. But some of those dogs look worse by trying it. Even though they may be great show dogs.


That's exactly how we lose GSD character.


----------



## lhczth

zetti said:


> It looks like the host club is in Macon. You can always email Pam for clarification.


You could also contact Wallace Payne on FB since it is his club hosting it. 

Show location: 7979 NE Industrial Blvd, Macon, GA 31218 which appears to be south of Macon. The host hotel is in Macon. There are others that are closer in some town named Warner Robins, GA.


----------



## lhczth

zetti said:


> Herding is an acceptable test of breed suitably in lieu of IPO.


HGH herding, only.


----------



## WIBackpacker

lhczth said:


> We have probably damaged the breed beyond repair all in the name of "bettering the breed".


Are there any additional thoughts you wouldn't mind sharing, on this specific point? I'm asking sincerely, it interests me.


----------



## cdwoodcox

zetti said:


> That's exactly how we lose GSD character.


 Looks like two different breeds anyway. Keeping character by half assed protection training isn't helping keep character. It just makes things look bad. If show focused on show and work focused on work then those that wanted a good working dog that keeps the character of the breed could get them. And show could focus on what they want.


----------



## Jenny720

I like all the different lines they have much to offer. If all you had were working lines I'm sure it would bring a surplus of backyard breeders. When I think of working lines I always thought more in the of police dogs but now I can see there is a split within working lines themselves with sport and all. Where there are any kind of titles there is money to be made. Where there is money things always get slanted. Way back when German shepherds had many real jobs. Much is all titles and sport. It brings along good and bad things. If I wanted to train my dog in protection training I would get him trained in real protection work. Having an ipo dog trained in protection does not guarantee he will protect you. In my opinion you can train gsd to do anything it will range from poor to great. Are their other countries that do not train for temperament testing.


----------



## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> Looks like two different breeds anyway. Keeping character by half assed protection training isn't helping keep character. It just makes things look bad. If show focused on show and work focused on work then those that wanted a good working dog that keeps the character of the breed could get them. And show could focus on what they want.


If you want to create a whole new breed, then don't make the show dogs work.

I have criticism of the WL people, too. There are those who refuse to even consider structure. That's wrong headed as well. Form follows function and the standard was written for a reason. For us, it's not a beauty pageant. But, if we ignore structure too much, we risk affecting functionality and losing our breed's unique appearance. I was thrilled beyond measure when my WGWL male got himself an SG. I don't expect Vs on my WLs.

Nobody is arguing in favor of watered down IPO trials or purchased titles. That does just as much damage, if not more, as breeding dogs with no proven ability to do the work for which the breed was developed.

Ultimately, you end up with Golden Retrievers in German Shepherd uniforms. JQP may love that. But, if you're breeding to sell puppies, you're going to damage the breed.


----------



## zetti

lhczth said:


> HGH herding, only.



Yes, the HGH.

Whenever I see HGH these days, I think of Human Growth Hormone rather than herding. I need to spend more time with GSD people.


----------



## carmspack

cdwoodcox "Looks like two different breeds anyway."

carmspack --actually , make that THREE different breeds , and in more than the "looks" department.

cdwoodcox "If show focused on show"

carmspack -- and they do . Meanwhile the rest of the world is watching , bringing some very strong reactions inspiring hot topic debate and I believe excluding the BREED from their venue 
German Shepherd with a sloped back wins Crufts' 2016 best of breed award | Daily Mail Online 

Closer to home --- the SV is taken to task in this video 



Now that we have forum member schweinestall - maybe she can translate . 

cdwoodcox "work focused on work then those that wanted a good working dog that keeps the character of the breed could get them"

carmspack --- well I hope they do . Real attention has to be paid to not creating bottlenecks . Real attention has to be paid to diversity in function , which relies on genetic balance - understanding the breed character .

Linda Shaw's great little book attempts to draw attention to faults in functional conformation . Drop in the bathtub never mind bucket . "They" have no desire and no will to change things . Won't even acknowledge the abysmal state of temperament . That evident in the end of a legend video.

Thank you Cliff ! "This breed used to be one of the most adaptable dogs on the planet that could adjust to about anything"




"


----------



## carmspack

Jenny " If I wanted to train my dog in protection training I would get him trained in real protection work. Having an ipo dog trained in protection does not guarantee he will protect you."

It is not the TRAINING . It is what the dog brings to the table . Those qualities must be tested for (genotype) and present in order to be passed on. 
An individual dog may be a good candidate , but the BREED -- which is no longer one breed , but 3 , should have it par for the course .


----------



## Dotbat215

carmspack said:


> Real attention has to be paid to not creating bottlenecks . Real attention has to be paid to diversity in function , which relies on genetic balance - understanding the breed character .


Would doing away with certain colors being faults (liver, blue, etc) help avoid bottlenecks? I know folks usually say that no reputable breeder would intentionally breed for them but I can't imagine that there are no good blue, liver, etc dogs that could add some diversity into the breed...

I'm a total noob with pedigrees and genetics and all the issues and politics surrounding them, so take that into account haha....


----------



## carmspack

dotbat -- I am afraid it wouldn't . Uran Wildsteiger Land , as an example , and a pillar of the modern WGSL's produced blue pups .


----------



## zetti

carmspack said:


> Jenny " If I wanted to train my dog in protection training I would get him trained in real protection work. Having an ipo dog trained in protection does not guarantee he will protect you."
> 
> It is not the TRAINING . It is what the dog brings to the table . Those qualities must be tested for (genotype) and present in order to be passed on.
> An individual dog may be a good candidate , but the BREED -- which is no longer one breed , but 3 , should have it par for the course .


Perfectly said. It is about the dog and the dog's genetic makeup. In fact, your dog's genes will determine whether he *can* be trained for personal protection or IPO. You need the right combination of drives and nerve along with a requisite amount of genetic hardness, best explained as resilience or the dog simply will not do the work.

When we start breeding dogs without knowing if they carry those traits, we risk losing true German Shepherd character.


----------



## Dotbat215

carmspack said:


> dotbat -- I am afraid it wouldn't . Uran Wildsteiger Land , as an example , and a pillar of the modern WGSL's produced blue pups .



Ok...maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing the connection between what I said and this...

Are you saying that livers, blues, pibald, etc are not genetically "far enough away" (if that makes sense) to add real diversity to GSD genetics?


----------



## gsdluvr

@carmspack I had this translated. If anyone wants, I will send the "document"


----------



## Jax08

carmspack said:


> dotbat -- I am afraid it wouldn't . Uran Wildsteiger Land , as an example , and a pillar of the modern WGSL's produced blue pups .





Dotbat215 said:


> Ok...maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing the connection between what I said and this...
> 
> Are you saying that livers, blues, pibald, etc are not genetically "far enough away" (if that makes sense) to add real diversity to GSD genetics?


If I'm understanding the lines correctly, I think what Carmen is saying is that those lines that produced the blues are already in the gene pool. For instance, breeding on Pike, in MANY WL pedigrees, produces livers. So the people purposely producing livers are line breeding on Pike. The gene pool for the "rare" colors is even more narrow than the accepted colors.


----------



## Dotbat215

Jax08 said:


> If I'm understanding the lines correctly, I think what Carmen is saying is that those lines that produced the blues are already in the gene pool. For instance, breeding on Pike, in MANY WL pedigrees, produces livers. So the people purposely producing livers are line breeding on Pike. The gene pool for the "rare" colors is even more narrow than the accepted colors.



I see now. Oh well!


----------



## cdwoodcox

zetti said:


> If you want to create a whole new breed, then don't make the show dogs work.
> 
> I have criticism of the WL people, too. There are those who refuse to even consider structure. That's wrong headed as well. Form follows function and the standard was written for a reason. For us, it's not a beauty pageant. But, if we ignore structure too much, we risk affecting functionality and losing our breed's unique appearance. I was thrilled beyond measure when my WGWL male got himself an SG. I don't expect Vs on my WLs.
> 
> Nobody is arguing in favor of watered down IPO trials or purchased titles. That does just as much damage, if not more, as breeding dogs with no proven ability to do the work for which the breed was developed.
> 
> Ultimately, you end up with Golden Retrievers in German Shepherd uniforms. JQP may love that. But, if you're breeding to sell puppies, you're going to damage the breed.


 I totally understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to argue or reinvent the breed or set the standards for different aspects of the breed. I am just trying to wrap my head around it all. Shoot a couple years ago I had no idea what WGWL, WGSL, ASL meant. I wouldn't have known if you had actually said American show line. I would have said "you mean a German Shepherd"?. 
But can someone clarify if I am right about one thing. There is some really good dogs in show that do or would suck in IPO. And the flip side. Some really good working dogs who excel in IPO or K9, etc... That would suck at show. 
So then should none of these dogs be bred if they couldn't cross over to all aspects of today's German Shepherds. Or do we hold all dogs to the original standard and regardless of if they excel in one aspect and do horrible in another not breed. Does people consider breeding for specific jobs hurting the breed.


----------



## Nigel

lhczth said:


> HGH herding, only.


Is there still protection work involved in the hgh or has this changed?


----------



## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> I totally understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to argue or reinvent the breed or set the standards for different aspects of the breed. I am just trying to wrap my head around it all. Shoot a couple years ago I had no idea what WGWL, WGSL, ASL meant. I wouldn't have known if you had actually said American show line. I would have said "you mean a German Shepherd"?.
> But can someone clarify if I am right about one thing. There is some really good dogs in show that do or would suck in IPO. And the flip side. Some really good working dogs who excel in IPO or K9, etc... That would suck at show.
> So then should none of these dogs be bred if they couldn't cross over to all aspects of today's German Shepherds. Or do we hold all dogs to the original standard and regardless of if they excel in one aspect and do horrible in another not breed. Does people consider breeding for specific jobs hurting the breed.


s

Well, if the dog can't work doing the breed suitably test, weakened though it may be, or has poor structure, why would you want to breed that dog?


----------



## cdwoodcox

zetti said:


> s
> 
> Well, if the dog can't work doing the breed suitably test, weakened though it may be, or has poor structure, why would you want to breed that dog?


Well, for show dogs. Structure wise they already fail the breed standard as I understand it. Or at least how it used to be in the breeds beginning. So I suppose my point is why bother trying to title a dog in IPO if show dogs don't meet the standards physically. 
Everyone in show just accept that the dogs aren't what was originally bred but are what show dogs have been morphed into. Working or sport dogs try and keep it as close as possible to breed standards.


----------



## carmspack

Dotbat215 said:


> Ok...maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing the connection between what I said and this...
> 
> Are you saying that livers, blues, pibald, etc are not genetically "far enough away" (if that makes sense) to add real diversity to GSD genetics?


I understand the confusion.
Livers and blue are undesirable colours set out by the standard.
They are dilution factors , recessives . Not some obscure lines that can be reintroduced .
I used Uran Wildsteiger Land because he was such a sought after stud .
There was great effort made by Wienerau and Arminius to perfect a uniformity and boy did they achieve it ! 
Too uniform . "cookie cutter" . Pedigrees too similiar - the bottleneck - . 

one thing I have got to say - it's not easy , and it's not getting any easier.

one thing I highly recommend is reading the book Bred for Perfection -because these issues pretty well cover all livestock .


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Have the working line people considered breaking off and becoming their own breed? Just curious


----------



## Jax08

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Have the working line people considered breaking off and becoming their own breed? Just curious


We already are  

I'm sure the rationale on that would be that the breed is a working breed so why would the working line become another breed because the show lines don't work?

The SV president is a show line breeder. His vision of the GSD does not include the working line and he stated that. It will be interesting to see what happens in Germany over the next few years.


----------



## cdwoodcox

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Have the working line people considered breaking off and becoming their own breed? Just curious


Maybe I should have just asked this question. Could have saved about 5 posts. This sums up my sentiments. Only I agree that show should be the ones that change breeds.


----------



## zetti

Jax08 said:


> We already are
> 
> I'm sure the rationale on that would be that the breeyd is a working breed so why would the working line become another breed because the show lines don't work?
> 
> The SV president is a show line breeder. His vision of the GSD does not include the working line and he stated that. It will be interesting to see what happens in Germany over the next few years.


Yup. That's it.

Actually, AKC doesn't list the GSD as a working breed, it's classed as herding. Just in case anyone follows the ins and outs of AKC.

The SV split started with the two dueling brothers. There's nothing inherently wrong with having two different types of GSDs, just as long as the dogs prove they have the proper courage, hardness and fighting instinct on the field as well as correct structure.

Why do breeders act as if this is such an undue burden? Working ability and structure. Is that too much to ask for our beloved dogs?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Well, the reason I asked if working line ppl wanted to break off is because obviously the show line ppl are happy with what they are doing and are not being contested by the SV...maybe that is the wrong wording...but they have no reason I can see to want to break off.

So is this like under way...has someone actually done something, or just a desire? (to make WLs their own breed)


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

So I have an honest question. Does no one really cross other lines with working lines because the outcome is so poor or are the working lines resistant to cross because they want to be their own thing and not be polluted by these "inferior" dogs?


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## astrovan2487

I think it would be pretty sad if they decided to split the working/show lines into separate breeds. Honestly it seems a little selfish to me, the German Shepherd as a breed is something bigger than our own personal standards or preferences, there are standards that were made when the breed was founded. If you do not like them than make another breed like they did with Shiloh Shepherds. We should have our own personal preferences in breeding but they need to be within the original standards for it to still be a GSD. I am not a breeder but feel that if I were the goal would be to produce the best GSD overall according to standard, a dog that looks good and works good, I do not understand why this is so hard to follow.


----------



## carmspack

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Have the working line people considered breaking off and becoming their own breed? Just curious


the working line people have been squeezed out when the SV separated the Zuchtshau for Sieger and the BSP . Different dates. Different arenas . 
Sieger show becomes a big tourist attraction. 

Working line people were squeezed out when Helmut Raiser , a legitimately voted in President of the SV was unceremoniously dumped and replaced by someone who would promote the interests of the show (cartel). 
That made it clear to what was going on.

Up until that event there was an ongoing systematic marginalization of the working group.

three breed name suggestions 
black and red show lines starting with Canto - the Martin Dogs (two brothers)
working line dogs Stephanitz Dogs (although So Eiselen was breeding prior to , better, and with better results - )
american bred lines -- the Moses dog - recognizing the contribution to the American show lines .


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## carmspack

sorry incomplete thought "american bred lines -- the Moses dog - recognizing the contribution to the American show lines "

that should have been -- the Moses dog -- recognizing the contributions of Jimmy Moses , etc etc


----------



## Dotbat215

carmspack said:


> I understand the confusion.
> Livers and blue are undesirable colours set out by the standard.
> They are dilution factors , recessives . Not some obscure lines that can be reintroduced .
> I used Uran Wildsteiger Land because he was such a sought after stud .
> There was great effort made by Wienerau and Arminius to perfect a uniformity and boy did they achieve it !
> Too uniform . "cookie cutter" . Pedigrees too similiar - the bottleneck - .
> 
> one thing I have got to say - it's not easy , and it's not getting any easier.
> 
> one thing I highly recommend is reading the book Bred for Perfection -because these issues pretty well cover all livestock .


Thanks for writing all that.... Super interesting. I guess I figured, since livers blues etc have been faults for quite some time, that might create a situation where gsds with "fresher" genetics could be introduced. Ah well. 

Personally, I like the faulty gsd colors but they seem to attract gimmicky bybs.


----------



## Dotbat215

carmspack said:


> .
> 
> three breed name suggestions
> black and red show lines starting with Canto - the Martin Dogs (two brothers)
> working line dogs Stephanitz Dogs (although So Eiselen was breeding prior to , better, and with better results - )
> american bred lines -- the Moses dog - recognizing the contribution to the American show lines .


That could put an end to the bickering between the different lines...Moses German Shepherds, Stephanitz German Shepherds, Martin German Shepherds. Recognizes the differences while acknowledging a shared origin...

People would probably still find something to bicker over though. Haha...


----------



## zetti

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So I have an honest question. Does no one really cross other lines with working lines because the outcome is so poor or are the working lines resistant to cross because they want to be their own thing and not be polluted by these "inferior" dogs?


The compatibility of various bloodlines is a complex subject that requires a lot of expertise. It's not just a matter of taking a SL and a WL and putting them together. Without a good understanding of the dogs behind them and what they produce, you can end up with a real mess--pups with poor structure who can't work.

From what I understand (I have no personal experience with this) the show/working line crosses have not generally turned out well. Not surprising.


----------



## zetti

Dotbat215 said:


> That could put an end to the bickering between the different lines...Moses German Shepherds, Stephanitz German Shepherds, Martin German Shepherds. Recognizes the differences while acknowledging a shared origin...
> 
> People would probably still find something to bicker over though. Haha...


I'd squawk about calling them *German Shepherds*. They would need to be identified as completely different breeds like the Shiloh Shepherd.

The Stephanitz German Shepherd, if it remains a working dog and is bred to standard would actually be a German Shepherd.

Of course, it's all moot until there is new and better leadership at the SV.


----------



## lhczth

zetti said:


> I have criticism of the WL people, too. There are those who refuse to even consider structure. That's wrong headed as well. Form follows function and the standard was written for a reason. For us, it's not a beauty pageant. But, if we ignore structure too much, we risk affecting functionality and losing our breed's unique appearance. I was thrilled beyond measure when my WGWL male got himself an SG. I don't expect Vs on my WLs.


Yes. but functional working structure is very different from the fads of the show ring. A high percentage of the dogs in the show ring would not hold up to real work. They lack agility, the ability to not just trot all day, but to turn quickly, sprint, jump and then go back into their gait. 

I agree working people should also pay attention to structure. Bad feet, flat withers, lack of balance in angulation, long backs, short upper arms, etc all take away from efficiency and can shorten the dog's working life, though some issues more than others. We should also maintain type both in structure and in temperament/character. We should be breeding GSD and not Mals.


----------



## lhczth

Nigel said:


> Is there still protection work involved in the hgh or has this changed?


I have not paid attention to HGH, except for watching a few videos, in many years so I can not answer that. I think they do still have a "protection" requirement AND if the dog is breed surveyed they will have had to do the same protection work that all the dogs do in the survey. Interestingly, at least in the USA, the HGH dogs are mostly working lines or working with maybe some old show. Even in that world, the show lines have lost their way.


----------



## lhczth

Just a correction, Carmen, Raiser was not SV president. He was the National Breed Warden. 

It will never change because the show line dogs bring far far too much money. When they can sell pretty plushy black/brown high V and VA dogs to China for 6 figures, why would they change? 

BTW, there has always been a split in the breed between show and working. The powers that be in the SV just did a much better job of maintaining type/structure with character/temperament/working ability before the Martin brothers. 

We were sitting around and chatting at club today and one of our members commented that she loves her young GSD male because he is like a Mal. I am a GSD person through and through. I do IPO because I enjoy it and it is the most readily available. I don't always care for the judging and the Mali style that is too often rewarded and I don't always care for the types of dogs I see so often now. I want a GSD. If I wanted a freaking Mal, I would buy one. Her comment made me sad.


----------



## carmspack

an excellent interview - curious concern about the "corporate image" of the GSD.
I don't know of any other breed with this view point

Recognition of the split acknowledged 
some interesting views (especially page 11) were this was taken from

"After 30 years, I don’t believe it
makes sense to get back to this idea.
The fact is, however, that within our
association, we have two genetically
almost isolated populations, though
we have an identical breed standard.
They could almost be called breeds."

https://www.schaeferhunde.de/fileadmin/SV/Documents/Interview_Praesident_SV-Ztg_11-15_E.pdf


----------



## Jenny720

I can see both sides of the coin and have understood why the working line people are pissed off. This always reminded me of religious wars in a kind of way. People like their showlines and people like their working lines and some people like all the lines. With all the bickering and bashing of lines deepens the divide and not many people learn anything this way from either side. 

Regarding show lines- I like cowboy's girl question regarding the mixing of show lines with working. As I always thought this to be common sense. I'm no breeder or expert but I would think the very experienced and educated breeders can carefully pull this off. This has been done in the past with success and fails. If a showline breeder wanted to add working line blood to their lines or vice versa why is their an uproar. I remember at sheep herding there was a show line Australian Shepherd breeder standing next to me her dog was being worked with sheep. Her dog had no interest in sheep at all. The Australian shepherd breeder turned to me and said well its time to do a breeding with a working line aussie. The first thing I thought was if there as much strife and drama in the working line and show line between different breeds as the german shepherd. It seems that when a show line American or german showline want to breed to a working line or vice versa there are many nay sayers. It as if they only want to change the showline german shepherds name or bash them in my opinion.


----------



## carmspack

the American breeders are far more open to going to and taking what they need from the SV seletion.

there already is acceptance in variety or diversity in physical type and colour .

wgsl's would never ever look to the amsl . 
wgsl's , to my knowledge and experience reviewing pedigrees , did not even capitalize
on the DDR dogs when they became available.

working line breeders did - to great benefit , american show line breeders did .

rue the day that a wgsl should be SABLE . 

already intensely line/ in / bred with no new genetics coming in - zealously guarding "the colour" 
which is selling very well -- there is no place to go .


----------



## Jenny720

I can see where an open minded breeder can only be beneficial. I would love to see a dark sable west german show line.


----------



## Dotbat215

Jenny720 said:


> I remember at sheep herding there was a show line Australian Shepherd breeder standing next to me her dog was being worked with sheep. Her dog had no interest in sheep at all. The Australian shepherd breeder turned to me and said well its time to do a breeding with a working line aussie.



That's really interesting. Makes you wonder if folks in the GSD world would be willing to put aside their issues and do something to save the breed if something catastrophic happened. 

Wasn't it the Dutchies who needed "new blood" after WWII and Belgian Shepherds were brought in?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

zetti said:


> The compatibility of various bloodlines is a complex subject that requires a lot of expertise. It's not just a matter of taking a SL and a WL and putting them together. Without a good understanding of the dogs behind them and what they produce, you can end up with a real mess--pups with poor structure who can't work.
> 
> From what I understand (I have no personal experience with this) the show/working line crosses have not generally turned out well. Not surprising.


I would love input from someone who has owned or bred a show/working cross. I would like to know if they did not turn out well, in what way? Didn't show well? Didn't work well? Didn't make good pets? I would really like to hear something more specific than "from what I hear", and I don't mean this as a knock to anybody or to be antagonistic, I am just scientific enough in my mind that second hand information that is too general to categorize as one thing or another doesn't cut it.

Now that I think of it, my female *might*be a working line crossed with wgsl. I tried to find her extended pedigree the other day and couldnt....I might have to pay for another one from akc. I am going to have to investigate this further because if she is, I might have my own piece of evidence ....


----------



## Jenny720

dotbat215- I'm not familiar with the dutchies would like to know more but yes I believe "new blood" is needed to continue to move forward.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

If dogs in the pedigree look like wgsls but it is back in the 70s is that before all this happened and it wasn't such a thing?


----------



## Jenny720

Is the dog Lexus on you tube a working line showline cross does anyone know? I think he may but can be wrong I know he did a breeding with a wgsl. I really love that dog. Curious about his lines.


----------



## Galathiel

I guess you can following Xeph's female to see a potential cross and how it works out. She's been bred to a WGSL.


----------



## carmspack

Jenny720 said:


> I can see where an open minded breeder can only be beneficial. I would love to see a dark sable west german show line.


I need to scrub that image out of my mind .

the issues aren't focused on cosmetics. Two portions of the breed don't put much value on performance . Keep my dog a working dog. Remember?


----------



## carmspack

Just a correction, Carmen, Raiser was not SV president. He was the National Breed Warden. 

okay Lisa . I was trying to recall Raiser's trying to form a new version of a registry with emphasis on working. I think that was around 2000. This was a topic kicked around on Brisson site. I think some members were keen to join - but have no idea on any developments. Probably sand like a lead weight. There is no budging in Germany. 
Far too much economy , corporate image , really, tied up with the black and red international commodity.

Yet they love to capitalize on "the legend" of GSD showing bravery - service to mankind , in the working world.

Many times I have said that the non-SV organizations, in the Scandinavian countries, in the former Eastern block will be valuable assets to keeping the essence of the breed.


----------



## carmspack

Dotbat215 said:


> That's really interesting. Makes you wonder if folks in the GSD world would be willing to put aside their issues and do something to save the breed if something catastrophic happened.
> 
> Wasn't it the Dutchies who needed "new blood" after WWII and Belgian Shepherds were brought in?


do you mean catastrophic within the breed?

then it is beyond repair . Genetics will have been lost.

"Breed" is such a recent concept . Experimental . Who knows if it will last without imploding.

Traits are what need to be maintained. This has been the basis of breeding from time immemorial . The type was coincidental , form and function, not deliberate based on cosmetics.

there has to be a sensible approach to excluding breeding partners when the issues are easily managed .
the gene pool will be needlessly reduced , and possibly through selection in trying to eliminate one thing you will have severly concentrated something else deleterious which isn't even on the radar . 

breeding will change -- undesirable genes can be snipped at the chromosomal level . Know of "stuff" going on right now.

Hip dysplasia will not be in this possibility because there is no one location . It is multi-factorial - with outside chemical influences (food and the body's chemistry) environment , hormones etc etc .


----------



## WIBackpacker

Those who feel strongly about splitting the GSD into 2 or 3 separate breeds should take a good long look at the current border collie state affairs.

Among other things, the working registry will *permanently revoke* the dog's registration if it is shown in conformation to a CH, regardless of how well the dog may work. Its offspring cannot be registered either, ever. On the other hand, any dog of any lineage (known or unknown, brown or spotted, short or tall) that demonstrates truly exceptional working ability can be granted admittance to the working registry, and its progeny bred and registered as such. This type of black & white divide doesn't make sense for a German Shepherd, because the breed is intended to be suitable for a diversity of purposes - in contrast, the only test of working ability acceptable by the BC's working registry is stock work. Lots of BC people passionately argue that creating this black & white divide has allowed them to preserve the world's premier sheepdog. On the other hand, the people with a working registry dog who want to compete in AKC obedience or AKC agility either need to spay/neuter dog to be eligible for a PAL number, or dual register.

I could go on for pages, but it's vaguely off-topic.... Anyone interested can search for "ABCA vs AKC" and read for hours. May give insight into the realities of dividing one breed.


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## Thecowboysgirl

sometimes I don't think people are as smart as we give ourselves credit for.


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## carmspack

public registries have been a ruin to many a breed !

read Bred for Perfection. 

no one is forcing a separation. It HAS happened. 40 years ago. Naturally. Just some of the public needs to realize this.


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## WIBackpacker

carmspack said:


> public registries have been a ruin to many a breed !
> 
> read Bred for Perfection.
> 
> no one is forcing a separation. It HAS happened. 40 years ago. Naturally. Just some of the public needs to realize this.


I have, actually. That book caught my eye several years ago when I was actively breeding and selling animals (not dogs). Savvy buyers would ask for the pedigree information and remark "Oh, your male goes back to Elizabeth's old lines, that's nice," etc. If I offered for sale the same animal without paper pedigree, I would've had to reduce the price by 50%. Maybe more.

I'm not anti-registry when it comes to animals. I like clarity, facts, learning, asking questions.

I brought up the border collie situation because it's a real, modern example of what can happen when two groups decide to draw a line in the sand, make the divide permanent, and put it all in writing.


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## Honeybee1999

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. So far I still don't understand why splitting GSDs into show and working would be so bad, other than some people feel all GSDs must have working ability. GSDs are the third most popular dog breed in the US. The majority are family pets. Do they all need to have working ability and aggression? It would probably help public perception if the aggression is bred out of the show lines and is preserved only in working lines. People often choose pets based on looks. People who like the look of Golden Retrievers buy Golden Retrievers. People who like the look of GSDs buy GSDs. And often then run into problems because their GSD has more energy and drive than they were expecting in a "loyal family companion". Not everyone wants to do IPO or herding. In fact, I think a minority of GSD owners do. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can see where an open minded breeder can only be beneficial. I would love to see a dark sable west german show line.
> 
> 
> 
> I need to scrub that image out of my mind .
> 
> the issues aren't focused on cosmetics. Two portions of the breed don't put much value on performance . Keep my dog a working dog. Remember?
Click to expand...


I do know the issues are not focused soley on cosmetics Carmen.


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## Dotbat215

@carmspack

Catastrophic in the sense of a natural disaster or global conflict that reduces the number of GSDs and those who currently breed them.

But yes, the idea of "breeds" is a recent development (historically speaking).


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## zetti

Honeybee1999 said:


> I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. So far I still don't understand why splitting GSDs into show and working would be so bad, other than some people feel all GSDs must have working ability. GSDs are the third most popular dog breed in the US. The majority are family pets. Do they all need to have working ability and aggression? It would probably help public perception if the aggression is bred out of the show lines and is preserved only in working lines. People often choose pets based on looks. People who like the look of Golden Retrievers buy Golden Retrievers. People who like the look of GSDs buy GSDs. And often then run into problems because their GSD has more energy and drive than they were expecting in a "loyal family companion". Not everyone wants to do IPO or herding. In fact, I think a minority of GSD owners do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I don't think you really understand the GSD character yet. If we split the breed and don't require showlines to work, the showline dogs won't be German Shepherds anymore.

You might want to read some of Max von Stephanitz's writings about the GSD. First and foremost, it was to remain a working dog.

Buying a dog based on looks is foolhardy at best. That's like buying a car based on its looks with no inquiry as to reliability, safety, mileage or any of a dozen more important features that matter over the long haul.

If a buyer likes the temperament of a Golden Retriever, by all means, have a Golden Retriever. But, do not try to convert our beloved German Shepherd into a Golden.

I'm not sure you're clear on the kind of *aggression* a GSD should have. It's a very complex thing and doesn't involve lunging and snarling at strangers. I invite you to takethe time to visit a local IPO club--get a feel for what the dogs are like.

I think one of the reasons there is so much confusion about GSD temperament and aggression is because there are so many badly bred GSDs out there showing all kinds of crazy fear aggression.

All of my dogs love people. I had one dog years ago who was a wonderful well socialized companion, spectacular obedience and tracking dog and very sweet. He also had defense drive off the charts, he was a very civil dog and needed careful handling. He loved women, did not trust men. Once you won him over, he was your bud for life.

My adopted WGSL shows some actual correctness-- she is suspicious of new people, but as soon as they commit, she is very friendly.

I've owned two former police K9s, both were quite social with people. 

Of my current dogs, my husband's adult male WGWL likes people and my Czech puppy is only 11 weeks, he's quite confident and at this age, loves everyone. 

I've had GSDs since 1991 without a single accidental bite, other than getting nipped a couple of times myself.

The GSD is not the right breed for everyone. They demand a lot from their owners in terms of the nature of the relationship. A typical dog-owner bond does not cut it with them. They need a lot of physical exercise and constant, ongoing training. They need jobs. Should you fail to provide one, they'll create their own. You may not like it.

I honestly have to say the GSD is not the right breed for most people. When people ask, I usually refer them to a good Lab breeder for a family pet. GSDs need more time and effort than most busy families can provide.


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## lhczth

Honeybee1999 said:


> I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. So far I still don't understand why splitting GSDs into show and working would be so bad, other than some people feel all GSDs must have working ability. GSDs are the third most popular dog breed in the US. The majority are family pets. Do they all need to have working ability and aggression? It would probably help public perception if the aggression is bred out of the show lines and is preserved only in working lines. People often choose pets based on looks. People who like the look of Golden Retrievers buy Golden Retrievers. People who like the look of GSDs buy GSDs. And often then run into problems because their GSD has more energy and drive than they were expecting in a "loyal family companion". Not everyone wants to do IPO or herding. In fact, I think a minority of GSD owners do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


By breeding out what people perceive as aggression from the Dobe they have created a breed that has few dogs that can work. The same has happened with most of the working breeds. We have few left. The GSD, the Mal and the Dutchie. Some Rotts here and there. People need to stop their selfish "I want what I want" and destroying the working breeds so they can have their soft mushy submissive couch potatoes


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## lhczth

Zetti actually said it better than I did. 
@carmspack, Carmen, Raiser started the RSV2000 which does exist. It just doesn't have the following, yet, of the other GSD organizations in the world.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Well what about dogs working in other venues than police? Do they not count as working dogs? My white is a service dog hopeful who is coming along well, and I have seen quite a decent amount of whites, wgsl and even pet bred gsd find work that way.


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## Honeybee1999

zetti said:


> I don't think you really understand the GSD character yet. If we split the breed and don't require showlines to work, the showline dogs won't be German Shepherds anymore.
> 
> You might want to read some of Max von Stephanitz's writings about the GSD. First and foremost, it was to remain a working dog.
> 
> Buying a dog based on looks is foolhardy at best. That's like buying a car based on its looks with no inquiry as to reliability, safety, mileage or any of a dozen more important features that matter over the long haul.
> 
> If a buyer likes the temperament of a Golden Retriever, by all means, have a Golden Retriever. But, do not try to convert our beloved German Shepherd into a Golden.
> 
> I'm not sure you're clear on the kind of *aggression* a GSD should have. It's a very complex thing and doesn't involve lunging and snarling at strangers. I invite you to takethe time to visit a local IPO club--get a feel for what the dogs are like.
> 
> I think one of the reasons there is so much confusion about GSD temperament and aggression is because there are so many badly bred GSDs out there showing all kinds of crazy fear aggression.
> 
> All of my dogs love people. I had one dog years ago who was a wonderful well socialized companion, spectacular obedience and tracking dog and very sweet. He also had defense drive off the charts, he was a very civil dog and needed careful handling. He loved women, did not trust men. Once you won him over, he was your bud for life.
> 
> My adopted WGSL shows some actual correctness-- she is suspicious of new people, but as soon as they commit, she is very friendly.
> 
> I've owned two former police K9s, both were quite social with people.
> 
> Of my current dogs, my husband's adult male WGWL likes people and my Czech puppy is only 11 weeks, he's quite confident and at this age, loves everyone.
> 
> I've had GSDs since 1991 without a single accidental bite, other than getting nipped a couple of times myself.
> 
> The GSD is not the right breed for everyone. They demand a lot from their owners in terms of the nature of the relationship. A typical dog-owner bond does not cut it with them. They need a lot of physical exercise and constant, ongoing training. They need jobs. Should you fail to provide one, they'll create their own. You may not like it.
> 
> I honestly have to say the GSD is not the right breed for most people. When people ask, I usually refer them to a good Lab breeder for a family pet. GSDs need more time and effort than most busy families can provide.


So I do understand that the type of "aggression" in a well bred and socialized GSD is not snarling at strangers. I was referring to the natural aggression present for a dog to want to take down a threat, such as in IPO. But you're right, I don't do IPO. I had some interest in it, but the closest club is too far away and I know I don't have enough interest to make that committment. 

I hear frequently here that a GSD should be versatile. So why, then, must every breeding quality GSD title in IPO? That is only one small subset of what a GSD can do, right?

How many dog breeds today have *only* dogs that do what they were originally bred for? Why is it bad for a breed to evolve beyond its original purpose? I'm not saying no GSDs should work. I'm asking why can't some of them just be good family dogs (show lines) and leave the working lines to those who are dedicated to working and sport? Isn't there a similar split in labs with field bred and show lines? Maybe I'm just dense but I don't see why that's such a problem? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## SuperG

Honeybee1999 said:


> I was referring to the natural aggression present for a dog to want to take down a threat, such as in IPO.


And I always thought most were just having fun........


SuperG


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## Honeybee1999

SuperG said:


> And I always thought most were just having fun........
> 
> 
> SuperG


Well if I'm wrong and there is not any kind of aggression present in protection work in IPO then I completely misunderstood the nature of what the protection phase is about.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## zetti

Honeybee1999 said:


> So I do understand that the type of "aggression" in a well bred and socialized GSD is not snarling at strangers. I was referring to the natural aggression present for a dog to want to take down a threat, such as in IPO. But you're right, I don't do IPO. I had some interest in it, but the closest club is too far away and I know I don't have enough interest to make that committment.
> 
> I hear frequently here that a GSD should be versatile. So why, then, must every breeding quality GSD title in IPO? That is only one small subset of what a GSD can do, right?
> 
> How many dog breeds today have *only* dogs that do what they were originally bred for? Why is it bad for a breed to evolve beyond its original purpose? I'm not saying no GSDs should work. I'm asking why can't some of them just be good family dogs (show lines) and leave the working lines to those who are dedicated to working and sport? Isn't there a similar split in labs with field bred and show lines? Maybe I'm just dense but I don't see why that's such a problem?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


It's not a matter of breeding dogs who can 'do' IPO. It's about using IPO to expose weaknesses in the GSD character.

IPO is the test we use to determine whether a given dog has the correct temperament to justify breeding that dog. It should weed out soft, weak dogs and dogs who lack proper drives we expect to see in a GSD.

Whether or not today's version of IPO is sufficient is a separate discussion. For now, it's what we have.

It's an *enormous* mistake to believe that pets don't need all of that nerve, courage and hardness stuff. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Have you ever met a toddler? Weak nerves, big dog with erratically behaving, screaming child=complete disaster. That's how fear biting happens.

Soft, weak GSDs can be extremely dangerous animals. 

Great family pets come out of well bred litters. In any given litter, there will be pups with less drive who will go to pet homes. Those are the prizes for pet buyers. They will have solid nerve strength, clear headedness and resilience you need.

Breeding dogs who were untested for soundness of temperament and good nerves too often produce unstable spook dogs. And the dogs should come from tested relatives.

Genetics counts for a whole lot with dogs.

So you see, you've actually been framing the question in reverse. The ultimate goal is not to breed dogs to do IPO. The point is to use IPO to determine which dogs are breed worthy.


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## Thecowboysgirl

www.hoofprint.ws/servicedogs.him


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## SuperG

Honeybee1999 said:


> Well if I'm wrong and there is not any kind of aggression present in protection work in IPO then I completely misunderstood the nature of what the protection phase is about.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I guess when I hear "natural aggression"....I think of fight drive.......my bitch's lineage is chock full of VA blood.....they've all done the protection work in IPO or otherwise.....I'm fairly certain mine would accomplish the same with proper training. Yet....I don't see this "natural aggression"....just a dog that has the ability to accomplish three disciplines. I'm sure some of these dogs in that sport have some "natural aggression"......but IMHO....most of them look like they are having fun executing what their handlers have trained them to do.


SuperG


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## cdwoodcox

Which if I am not mistaken is where the divide in sport comes into play. Don't the personal protection crowd look at IPO protection with disdain. Or like most of those dogs could never do real protection work.


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## cdwoodcox

Maybe not most but a lot.


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## Honeybee1999

SuperG said:


> I guess when I hear "natural aggression"....I think of fight drive.......my bitch's lineage is chock full of VA blood.....they've all done the protection work in IPO or otherwise.....I'm fairly certain mine would accomplish the same with proper training. Yet....I don't see this "natural aggression"....just a dog that has the ability to accomplish three disciplines. I'm sure some of these dogs in that sport have some "natural aggression"......but IMHO....most of them look like they are having fun executing what their handlers have trained them to do.
> 
> 
> SuperG


I don't know dogs nearly as well as I know horses, so maybe I apply horse psychology to dogs when I shouldn't. But I competed in three day eventing with my horse, which is a three-phase sport like IPO. It also becomes more demanding as you progress up the levels. You can train a horse to do all three phases, and maybe even have some success at the lower levels. But a horse that does not have the natural bravery to tackle some of the "scarier" questions on course will not make it as an eventer. My horse washed out after novice level because she was not a brave jumper. She just didn't have that quality. She made a wonderful dressage horse, though.

So I assumed IPO dogs must have that quality or drive to engage that might also be described as aggression, or they are not successful. It can't be all fun and games otherwise when the going gets tough, the dog or horse won't have the grit to continue on.

And maybe because of my background in horses I think of things backwards and see the sport as the goal, instead of the sport testing the goal. So instead of IPO being like eventing, IPO is like the 100 day stallion test for warmbloods. Those who don't pass get gelded.

Unless they decide to pass their licensing requirements through achievement in sport. There are multiple avenues for stallions to become licensed, not just the 100 day test. 

Interestingly enough, it is the same government (Germany) that developed the warmblood approval system that our dear GSDs also came from. Germany knows how to produce quality animals. Or they did, anyway.

And since I sense myself starting to ramble I think I will go get some sleep and read more in the morning. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## cliffson1

Open minded breeders.....
Breeding what people want or like.....
Eliminate the aggression in IPO.....
Split the breed into.......

These motivations albeit well intentioned, are the demise of the breed. 
We don't need open minded breeders, but knowledgeable breeders that have experience and dedication to maintaining ALL qualities of the breed.
We should not let the likes or prefaces of consumers decide breeding goals, decisions, or dogs used for breeding.
The natural aggression needed to herd or protect cannot be eliminated and the dog be true to its origin.
Splitting the breed is not necessary or well advised...rather integrity, knowledge and experience in maintaining the breed as it should be.
For some of you, there was a time when the winning show dogs in Germany routinely produced excellent herding and police dogs. In other words, both type of dogs came from same stock....so it's not a breed problem.....it's a human problem of breeders breeding for the things above.


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## zetti

cliffson1 said:


> Open minded breeders.....
> Breeding what people want or like.....
> Eliminate the aggression in IPO.....
> Split the breed into.......
> 
> These motivations albeit well intentioned, are the demise of the breed.
> We don't need open minded breeders, but knowledgeable breeders that have experience and dedication to maintaining ALL qualities of the breed.
> We should not let the likes or prefaces of consumers decide breeding goals, decisions, or dogs used for breeding.
> The natural aggression needed to herd or protect cannot be eliminated and the dog be true to its origin.
> Splitting the breed is not necessary or well advised...rather integrity, knowledge and experience in maintaining the breed as it should be.
> For some of you, there was a time when the winning show dogs in Germany routinely produced excellent herding and police dogs. In other words, both type of dogs came from same stock....so it's not a breed problem.....it's a human problem of breeders breeding for the things above.


Very well said. Dog breeding should never become market driven.


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## zetti

Honeybee1999 said:


> I don't know dogs nearly as well as I know horses, so maybe I apply horse psychology to dogs when I shouldn't. But I competed in three day eventing with my horse, which is a three-phase sport like IPO. It also becomes more demanding as you progress up the levels. You can train a horse to do all three phases, and maybe even have some success at the lower levels. But a horse that does not have the natural bravery to tackle some of the "scarier" questions on course will not make it as an eventer. My horse washed out after novice level because she was not a brave jumper. She just didn't have that quality. She made a wonderful dressage horse, though.
> 
> So I assumed IPO dogs must have that quality or drive to engage that might also be described as aggression, or they are not successful. It can't be all fun and games otherwise when the going gets tough, the dog or horse won't have the grit to continue on.
> 
> And maybe because of my background in horses I think of things backwards and see the sport as the goal, instead of the sport testing the goal. So instead of IPO being like eventing, IPO is like the 100 day stallion test for warmbloods. Those who don't pass get gelded.
> 
> Unless they decide to pass their licensing requirements through achievement in sport. There are multiple avenues for stallions to become licensed, not just the 100 day test.
> 
> Interestingly enough, it is the same government (Germany) that developed the warmblood approval system that our dear GSDs also came from. Germany knows how to produce quality animals. Or they did, anyway.
> 
> And since I sense myself starting to ramble I think I will go get some sleep and read more in the morning.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Right. You do have it reversed. The sport is not the goal in breeding. IPO is the test for which dogs should be allowed to reproduce.

IPO has also become a sport/hobby that many people do for fun and to enhance their bonds with their dogs. I suspect that's where the confusion comes in. Though many IPO participants are also breeders. Those breeders who do IPO, handling and training their own dogs are the ones I choose to do business with. They often have fine pet puppies available out of any given litter.

No, IPO dogs are not trained in personal protection. That is a different discipline. It's not used as the breed suitably test because it doesn't include tracking and has not been adopted by the SV or international body.

Think of IPO sort of like the SAT test for students--it needs to be standardized and quantified. The IPO provides three scores, tracking, obedience and protection. 

We must never let JQP determine what the GSD should be. No breeder should breed to appease buyers. Breeders should only red breed when they have buyers, however.

It's a funny thing. Breeders who breed without a thought to the standard, don't title their dogs and produce what they think are good pets end up having to sell on Craigslist.

The excellent breeders I know who handle their own dogs, title their dogs, OFA or a stamp their dogs, study bloodlines for years, test for DM and have clear, articulable breeding goals end up with litters sold weeks before the females even come into heat.

Something to think about.


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## SuperG

Much of this utopian rhetoric misses the reality of evolution.......starting in the human and then applied to the further alteration and departure of the breed's previous "standard" and practically applied purpose.

JQP.... in many ways does determine what a breed becomes.




SuperG


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## mycobraracr

Schutzhund was designed to test and demonstrate all aspects of the Gsd. Yes it's versitility. Courage, the ability to take on an adversary, bond to handler, CORRECT aggression, retrieval(service dog?), tracking, hunt drive, stable temperament(BH), and so on. It had the components to show the dogs natural abilities. People want pets. Fine, they are still produced out of well bred litters. No need to ruin it for everyone else.


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## SuperG

mycobraracr said:


> People want pets. Fine, they are still produced out of well bred litters. No need to ruin it for everyone else.


Is it not a good thing that there is this dumping ground where the washouts from breeding experiments can go, so the experiment/quest can continue.......

SuperG


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## Honeybee1999

So the dogs from working litters who can't make it in IPO because of poor temperament, weak nerves, etc. Where do they end up? Pet homes?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## mycobraracr

Honeybee1999 said:


> So the dogs from working litters who can't make it in IPO because of poor temperament, weak nerves, etc. Where do they end up? Pet homes?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk




In a perfect world, they wouldn't make it past the whelping box. Gasp!


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## SuperG

mycobraracr said:


> In a perfect world, they wouldn't make it past the whelping box. Gasp!


I was going to suggest as such in my last post as a possible alternative to the dumping grounds........

SuperG


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## Muskeg

Uh, yup...it's true. But a real "bad" dog that is nervy and not fit for anything, is pretty rare in a good breeding program. Many litters actually produce pretty uniform pups, some outstanding, some less so, but no real stinkers.


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## mycobraracr

Muskeg said:


> Uh, yup...it's true. But a real "bad" dog that is nervy and not fit for anything, is pretty rare in a good breeding program. Many litters actually produce pretty uniform pups, some outstanding, some less so, but no real stinkers.




Yup! Breeders I respect many on this forum told me years ago, that you breed dogs who are alike. So my current litter that's what I did. Kimber is a very solid work dog. I trust her with my life and people who know my background, know that I don't say that lightly. Ace is very similar to her in temperament and such. I didn't KKL Kimber for my own reasons. I did however take her to a judge and had her evaluated in the conformation department. I was told her "faults" and what to look for in a male. I was told she'd go SG. So I found a male with a very strong work ethic who's temperament was like hers, with the proper health clearances who is V rated to help where she was lacking. This litter in turn is very uniform. Some subtle differences between them, but all nice puppies. As a matter of fact I have a huge training weekend this weekend and decoys and people are coming in from all over. Some of them are staying with me. They have been very impressed with this litter and can understand why I haven't even picked the one I want yet. Now that being said, I have one in the litter who I think would be best suited for service or pet home. Super solid nerve, decent drive, but she's way more laid back than the others. Lower energy. This was produced out of solid working dogs. So....


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## gsdluvr

@mycobraracr How old are/were the pups when you made that assessment?


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## mycobraracr

gsdluvr said:


> @mycobraracr How old are/were the pups when you made that assessment?




Which assessment? The one I think more suited for service/pet home? She's been consistent from day one. They turned 7 weeks on Wednesday, and it's still holding true.


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## mycobraracr

I should add, yes there can be surprises. I know of one dog who was similar in behavior, was sold as a service dog then at about 11 months woke up and turned into a monster and sold. I did a lot of his foundational bite work and he's currently a working LE K9


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## gsdluvr

mycobraracr said:


> Which assessment? The one I think more suited for service/pet home? She's been consistent from day one. They turned 7 weeks on Wednesday, and it's still holding true.


Right, that was my question. Some have told me they felt their dogs didn't end up with the drive they "appeared" to have as young pups. But maybe they misread the puppies or there was a training error or?


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## Jack's Dad

Well Jeremy, I agree with you,Cliff, Lisa and others in principle but it concerns me you only consider 1 of 6 puppies suitable for a pet home. 
I saw on the AKC site that the GSD has been in the top ten most popular dogs for 55 years in a row and number 3 in popularity the last 10 years in a row.
Most people I know don't know or haven't even heard of IPO, the SV, breed surveys etc...

There are very few people who have the time, finances,property to breed dogs the ways that are suggested.
Hobby breeders can't support them selves just breeding dogs.

I think Lisa addressed the problem. People are going to buy GSDs. Most of them are pets.
Where are they going to get them? Who is going to produce them? Hobby breeders are a drop in the bucket to fulfill the market.


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## mycobraracr

Jack's Dad said:


> Well Jeremy, I agree with you,Cliff, Lisa and others in principle but it concerns me you only consider 1 of 6 puppies suitable for a pet home.
> I saw on the AKC site that the GSD has been in the top ten most popular dogs for 55 years in a row and number 3 in popularity the last 10 years in a row.
> Most people I know don't know or haven't even heard of IPO, the SV, breed surveys etc...
> 
> There are very few people who have the time, finances,property to breed dogs the ways that are suggested.
> Hobby breeders can't support them selves just breeding dogs.
> 
> I think Lisa addressed the problem. People are going to buy GSDs. Most of them are pets.
> Where are they going to get them? Who is going to produce them? Hobby breeders are a drop in the bucket to fulfill the market.



I wasn't trying to imply that only one puppy in the litter could be successful in a pet home. Just that there is a distinct difference in her level of energy. She's one I wouldn't market as a "top" working prospect. Even thought she has done drive and is very confident. She'd rather snuggle around and just be with her people. Most the others could succeed in an active pet home. Traits are there to be nice working prospects, but they can also be squashed. I say the same thing g about Kimber. She could have been fine in an active pet home. Most of her siblings are. Instead I developed the drives the genetics gave me.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I am sure a lot of people will hate me for this but whatever. I have a working line dog who was a service dog and even in her heyday when she was in harness most days of the week, she required even more than that to be happy in our apartment home. Her job was not enough for her. I was able to take her hiking and do hobby games with her to fulfill her but someone more disabled or differently disabled would not have been able to. 

She is one in a million. Beyond an incredible dog. Everywhere she has lived in her life she has had a fan club and people just flock to her, she is charismatic too. Anyway, I have tons of respect for wl dogs and wl breeders and the desire to preserve that solid dog that can and will do anything.

But I think everybody is going to extremes here. including the wl people. The very obvious scorn toward certain breeders, towards certain types of dogs owned by certain types of people is divisive. Ithe doesn't make me want to talk to you more or learn more about your dogs or your breeding program, and that is not promoting the breed I don't think. I think it is just unnecessary.

I wish I were hearing from everyone what the attributes are of each type of dog, rather than scoring them for their shortcomings. 

My one in a million dog has shortcomings too, and as best as I can understand they are a result of what she is genetically. Might she have been different if she had not had a pure positive, correction free first 3 years, or if I had simply been a stronger or better leader to her period, maybe, but my skills and her activity level and level of training was still more than the average pet home.

German Shepherds are beloved by many americans...and I think there is room for a somewhat wider spectrum than some people seem to want.

Most especially, I think the attitude of one group toward another is unfortunate, and perpetuates the divide rather than making room for meeting in the middle.

rant over.


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## Honeybee1999

I am still seeing a problem with breeding only GSDs with working ability. If you are breeding like to like, yes you will produce all similar pups. If they are fairly uniform in drives, temperament, aggression, what have you, then how will they be suitable for a pet home? What defines an "active pet home"? 

I still don't see why the lines shouldn't remain separate. Working lines can preserve the working ability for those who want it. Show lines can produce beautiful GSDs and those who aren't the best conformed examples can go to pet homes that maybe want a GSD that doesn't need copious amounts of exercise and training to be pleasant to live with.

I do rather like my sweet boy's temperament and lower energy. He is content with playing fetch in the backyard and going for walks on a daily basis around our work schedules, and playing off leash somewhere on the weekends. It sounds like if all GSDs were bred according to the "breed standard" with working ability, then he wouldn't exist. My female who was a WGSL probably wouldn't have existed, either, according to some in this thread. As someone who loves GSDs in all forms, that makes me sad. 

I am learning a lot about different breeders' motivations from this discussion, though. Everyone wants to produce GSDs according to the breed standard. Everyone differs in their opinions of what that means. I am glad we have choices. 

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## mycobraracr

I strongly encourage everyone to read "The German Shepherd Dog" -Capt. Max Stephanitz. I also strongly suggest everyone spend time with dogs of all venues both while excersizing that venue and during "off" time. Balance is a beautiful thing. I'm getting the feeling some are not understanding what balance truly is.


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## Thecowboysgirl

You know, maybe I don't understand...I definitely don't know as much about the German shepherd Dog as plenty of people on here. But I know I have just heard that I shouldn't have gotten a German Shepherd, I should have gotten a labrador, and my couch potato submissive dog is a POS

Guess what, he is not a POS....he is not a couch potato, he just goes with the flow. He can bum around and just be a pet sometimes, and he has never backed down from anything I have asked him to do, in fact he has basically exceeded my expectations over and over. He has shortcomings too, there are some things I would change about him if I had a magic wand.

My girl has an awesome off switch and she always has, even when she was young and way crazier than she is now. When it came to puppy shopping, I chose not to get a other wl dog. Maybe by the time my boy is old I will say I don't want another white, who knows.

I know I don't want to go hang out with people or their dogs who think my dog sucks and I ought to have a labrador instead. Whatever


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## mycobraracr

Thecowboysgirl said:


> You know, maybe I don't understand...I definitely don't know as much about the German shepherd Dog as plenty of people on here. But I know I have just heard that I shouldn't have gotten a German Shepherd, I should have gotten a labrador, and my couch potato submissive dog is a POS
> 
> Guess what, he is not a POS....he is not a couch potato, he just goes with the flow. He can bum around and just be a pet sometimes, and he has never backed down from anything I have asked him to do, in fact he has basically exceeded my expectations over and over. He has shortcomings too, there are some things I would change about him if I had a magic wand.
> 
> My girl has an awesome off switch and she always has, even when she was young and way crazier than she is now. When it came to puppy shopping, I chose not to get a other wl dog. Maybe by the time my boy is old I will say I don't want another white, who knows.
> 
> I know I don't want to go hang out with people or their dogs who think my dog sucks and I ought to have a labrador instead. Whatever




This will be my last post on this thread. 

No one was talking about your dog or you.


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## Jack's Dad

mycobraracr said:


> I wasn't trying to imply that only one puppy in the litter could be successful in a pet home. Just that there is a distinct difference in her level of energy. She's one I wouldn't market as a "top" working prospect. Even thought she has done drive and is very confident. She'd rather snuggle around and just be with her people. Most the others could succeed in an active pet home. Traits are there to be nice working prospects, but they can also be squashed. I say the same thing g about Kimber. She could have been fine in an active pet home. Most of her siblings are. Instead I developed the drives the genetics gave me.


I apologize. I interpreted it wrong.

I believe the GSD does not need to be extreme. They can be bred within the 
standard and still be good pets. 
I have two working lin GSDs who are laying at my feet right now watching the rain. Anyone interested, one is from Adlerstein and my female from True Haus. 
I have never done extreme amounts of exercise but a reasonable amount and mentl stimulation.

If breeders would focus on strong nerves, stable temperament, and health the breed would be fine. Too many breeders go for extremes to suit their own preferences and along with BYBs produce nervy, reactive psycho, unhealthy dogs.


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## onyx'girl

A GSD is not for everyone. If you want something different from what the breed standard describes, look at other breeds. I don't like the fact that this breed is so popular and is often placed in homes that are not the right fit. I am on a local GSD page and the amount of BYB dogs that people are breeding is sad.
Everyone wants a cheap puppy and there are plenty of them around. NOT one of these breeders have a clue of lines, or even a breed standard, no health testing, no training, titles? ha. Then they over vaccinate or sell pups at 6 weeks. 
Then they come on for advice for health issues or reactivity, separation anxiety, etc. 
Fake titles aren't the worst thing I guess. ugh


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## Honeybee1999

I wonder how breeders of other kinds of dogs manage to produce dogs with stable temperaments without the use of IPO to expose their weaknesses?

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## GypsyGhost

Honeybee1999 said:


> I wonder how breeders of other kinds of dogs manage to produce dogs with stable temperaments without the use of IPO to expose their weaknesses?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Breeders of other breeds have appropriate tests for their breeding stock, too. This is not a GSD thing.


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## lhczth

The goal should always be breeding for balance in our working dogs. Not extremes (though extreme dogs can be used). It is breeding towards extremes, breeding for a specific market that causes issues. Our dogs should not be soft like a Golden, crazy and thin nerved like a Mal or Dutchie, have ton of prey/toy/play drive yet lack aggression like a lab, etc. 

In 2013 I placed a titled (IPO1 TR2 AD) 4.5 year old male GSD as an SD for a veteran with PTSD and diabetes. He had the drive to do IPO (more than enough), strong hunt drive for detection work (I was actually working him for detection) which came in handy for the diabetic alert part of his SD work, but is also a very sound and balanced dog in temperament, drive with tremendous character. I have a 4 month old male right now that, if I don't sell, I may train up also for SD work. Very good drives for work, but also very balanced, super easy to live with, very strong nerves and the result of what most clueless people would call "sport lines".


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## lhczth

It is interesting that in countries that, for the most part, work and title their breeding stock, they have no problem meeting the demands of the pet market. Only here, where people can do as they please do we complain about actually having to put effort into testing our breeding stock (not saying the only way to test is IPO, but, darn, we should be doing something, and I don't mean a CGC, HIT or a RN).


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## Honeybee1999

lhczth said:


> It is interesting that in countries that, for the most part, work and title their breeding stock, they have no problem meeting the demands of the pet market. Only here, where people can do as they please do we complain about actually having to put effort into testing our breeding stock (not saying the only way to test is IPO, but, darn, we should be doing something, and I don't mean a CGC, HIT or a RN).


Well I guess I don't disagree that breeding stock should be tested in some way. I get it. I feel horses shouldn't be bred either unless they are very good at something and will produce a marketable foal. I think my main objection is the IPO or nothing line of thought.

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## wolfstraum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honeybee1999 View Post
So the dogs from working litters who can't make it in IPO because of poor temperament, weak nerves, etc. Where do they end up? Pet homes?

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In a perfect world, they wouldn't make it past the whelping box. Gasp!



Unfortunately - even in so called "good" working litters these are not uncommon   Too many ignorant or just plain kennel blind breeders who just breed titles without understanding or even caring about genetics. 

I talk to a few people quite often who are not internet or forum people.....some very very knowledgeable breeders...we discuss - sometimes very heatedly - characteristics that are commonly produced in litters with Dog A, Dog V or Dog Q ... many breeders do not care if they produce these if they get a rockstar working prospect in the litter....some well known breeders just dump them in pet homes, some actually cull them, ...there are kennels in Europe who knowingly breed litters who will have 2-3 great working prospects...the rest of the pups are disposed of - or shipped off to foreigners who think that magic name will insure success in the sport automatically....and so many in the sport droll over a pup with those kennel names. And sometimes, they show up here with puzzled bitter disappointment at what came out of the crate at the airport....poor dogs.


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## Honeybee1999

wolfstraum said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Honeybee1999 View Post
> So the dogs from working litters who can't make it in IPO because of poor temperament, weak nerves, etc. Where do they end up? Pet homes?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> In a perfect world, they wouldn't make it past the whelping box. Gasp!
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately - even in so called "good" working litters these are not uncommon   Too many ignorant or just plain kennel blind breeders who just breed titles without understanding or even caring about genetics.
> 
> I talk to a few people quite often who are not internet or forum people.....some very very knowledgeable breeders...we discuss - sometimes very heatedly - characteristics that are commonly produced in litters with Dog A, Dog V or Dog Q ... many breeders do not care if they produce these if they get a rockstar working prospect in the litter....some well known breeders just dump them in pet homes, some actually cull them, ...there are kennels in Europe who knowingly breed litters who will have 2-3 great working prospects...the rest of the pups are disposed of - or shipped off to foreigners who think that magic name will insure success in the sport automatically....and so many in the sport droll over a pup with those kennel names. And sometimes, they show up here with puzzled bitter disappointment at what came out of the crate at the airport....poor dogs.


Awful. To me that is no better than intentionally breeding dogs with severe health issues. The poor dogs suffer, and the unsuspecting owners face heartbreak. Irresponsible breeders can come in many forms, it seems.

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## zetti

Honeybee1999 said:


> Well I guess I don't disagree that breeding stock should be tested in some way. I get it. I feel horses shouldn't be bred either unless they are very good at something and will produce a marketable foal. I think my main objection is the IPO or nothing line of thought.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Ok. If not IPO, then what? How would you propose to test your breeding stock? What methods would you use to test soundness of nerve, strength and balance of drives? Courage? Hardness? Fighting instinct? Athletic ability? Stamina? How about the ability to work under distractions? Be safe in a group of strangers? Be neutral toward other dogs and go about their business? Hunt drive? Scenting ability?

That's just right off the top of my head.

Your goal as a breeder is to be honest with yourself about the weaknesses in your breeding stock. You need a way to find those weaknesses. 

IPO is far from a perfect test, no one would argue otherwise.


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## zetti

lhczth said:


> The goal should always be breeding for balance in our working dogs. Not extremes (though extreme dogs can be used). It is breeding towards extremes, breeding for a specific market that causes issues. Our dogs should not be soft like a Golden, crazy and thin nerved like a Mal or Dutchie, have ton of prey/toy/play drive yet lack aggression like a lab, etc.
> 
> In 2013 I placed a titled (IPO1 TR2 AD) 4.5 year old male GSD as an SD for a veteran with PTSD and diabetes. He had the drive to do IPO (more than enough), strong hunt drive for detection work (I was actually working him for detection) which came in handy for the diabetic alert part of his SD work, but is also a very sound and balanced dog in temperament, drive with tremendous character. I have a 4 month old male right now that, if I don't sell, I may train up also for SD work. Very good drives for work, but also very balanced, super easy to live with, very strong nerves and the result of what most clueless people would call "sport lines".


Great examples of what good breeding can produce. You're not churning out IPO puppies. You're using IPO to guide you in making breeding decisions.

What needed to be explained, and you did so well is that the same traits that make a dog excel in sport are transferable to other useful situations, as in your service dog examples.

As long as we stay true to what the GSD should be, there will be fine pets available as well as dogs for all kinds of service.


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## Honeybee1999

zetti said:


> Ok. If not IPO, then what? How would you propose to test your breeding stock? What methods would you use to test soundness of nerve, strength and balance of drives? Courage? Hardness? Fighting instinct? Athletic ability? Stamina? How about the ability to work under distractions? Be safe in a group of strangers? Be neutral toward other dogs and go about their business? Hunt drive? Scenting ability?
> 
> That's just right off the top of my head.
> 
> Your goal as a breeder is to be honest with yourself about the weaknesses in your breeding stock. You need a way to find those weaknesses.
> 
> IPO is far from a perfect test, no one would argue otherwise.


Well, again, I'm approaching it from a perspective of having a goal in mind, not just breeding to a "standard". I would test my breeding stock based on what I or my buyers intend to do with the pups. Service dogs? Obedience competitions? Barn hunt? AKC herding? Fly ball? Dock diving? 

Forgive me, I'm stuck in the sport horse world where we produce animals for the Olympic sports and have to produce foals that people will buy. Horses are too expensive to breed to some historic ideal that may have been what the founder wanted, but not what the majority of buyers today want. 

It's very hard for me to wrap my head around breeding animals that aren't saleable to JQP. Amateur owners are the biggest participants in horse sports. Isn't that also true for dog sports? If we had an entire breed of horses that were only rideable by professionals, that breed wouldn't last very long. I worry the same could happen to GSDs. They were originally bred as military dogs, correct? Has their use evolved past their original purpose? Or should they still only be military/police dogs?

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## alexg

Honeybee1999 said:


> ...
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


That can be turned off, unless you're intentionally advertising the app. :smile2:


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## WateryTart

Honeybee1999 said:


> I am still seeing a problem with breeding only GSDs with working ability. If you are breeding like to like, yes you will produce all similar pups. If they are fairly uniform in drives, temperament, aggression, what have you, then how will they be suitable for a pet home?


It's worth remembering measures of center and that we are talking about averages. On average, the pups will be similar to one another and similar to a "target" (assuming said target is the breed standard for temperament). That still allows for individual differences. Yes, one might strive for consistency and strive for something in particular, but that doesn't net you a mathematical equation into which you plug X sire and Y dam and get a batch of puppies who are all exactly Z. You try for Z and some puppies will hit that, some will exceed, and some will fall short. Overall, if you did your research and things turn out as expected, the litter as a whole is probably pretty close to Z.


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## GypsyGhost

WateryTart said:


> It's worth remembering measures of center and that we are talking about averages. On average, the pups will be similar to one another and similar to a "target" (assuming said target is the breed standard for temperament). That still allows for individual differences. Yes, one might strive for consistency and strive for something in particular, but that doesn't net you a mathematical equation into which you plug X sire and Y dam and get a batch of puppies who are all exactly Z. You try for Z and some puppies will hit that, some will exceed, and some will fall short. Overall, if you did your research and things turn out as expected, the litter as a whole is probably pretty close to Z.


THIS. Math saves the day!


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## Mesonoxian

One of the hardest things about comparing the equine world to the canine world (and I have this problem frequently), is that there are a lot of fundamental differences in overall thinking. I think this question is particularly difficult, because I would argue (especially in the USA), that the majority of horse owners either currently, or have in the past, participated in some level of performance with their horse. On the other hand, the majority of dog owners have them as companions only and the performance end of things is the minority of dog owners.



Honeybee1999 said:


> Amateur owners are the biggest participants in horse sports. Isn't that also true for dog sports?


I would agree (from what I know) that about amateurs in both horse and dog performance sports are a huge chunk of entries. That being said, JQP is likely not going to be buying a $60,000 trained-up-the-wazoo warmblood for 4H, or local open shows - but there is still a market for them. Not to mention, that those $60k warmbloods could likely do wonderfully in those local shows - *IF* the average horse owner/amateur rider were also capable of that level of performance. 



Honeybee1999 said:


> Horses are too expensive to breed to some historic ideal that may have been what the founder wanted, but not what the majority of buyers today want.


That, I think, is essentially the crux of the matter. 

In the horse world, "Form follows function" is the rule more than breed - unless you're big into showing on a breed circuit. If a horse's temperament and conformation make him suitable for Dressage, Cutting, Therapy work, or Eventing, it doesn't matter what breed he is, he'll do well. That being said, there are some breeds that _generally_ lend themselves well to one performance venue more than another. That doesn't mean there will be any (maybe even many) "exceptions" to the general rule, but patterns do emerge in both breeds and certain bloodlines. Looking at differences between "show" and "performance" horses is also interesting - as there are greater divides in some breeds and essentially no divide in others. 



Two quotes that really sum up how I (as someone who loves the GSD but has comparatively little experience) feel about our favorite breed:



lhczth said:


> *The goal should always be breeding for balance in our working dogs.*


 (Emphasis is mine)



zetti said:


> What needed to be explained, and you did so well is that the same traits that make a dog excel in sport are transferable to other useful situations, as in your service dog examples.
> 
> As long as we stay true to what the GSD should be, there will be fine pets available as well as dogs for all kinds of service.


IMHO, the true beauty of the GSD is their versatility. Just because they may be genetically suited to something, doesn't mean that they _have_ to do that. A dog who is of moderate and functional structure, and has a solid temperament can likely be successful in any or all of the performance venues you listed. And I think there is where the majority of any divisiveness in the breed lies. People have differing ideas of what "proper" or "moderate" structure looks like. To some, a "solid temperament" means the happy-go-lucky side of social, and less civility. To others, they want the moderate sociability with strangers, clear-headedness, and that natural defense drive. Is there a right answer? Possibly. Is there an easy, quick solution? Almost certainly not.


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## cliffson1

Sometimes it's difficult to tell if folks are dense or obtuse....lol, ( not meant at anyone specifically but if your behavior fits....wellll)
It has been said more than once by respected breeders that the adaptability of this breed is uncanny...when well bred. I mentioned that in times past that the winning show dogs in Germany also produced the police/herding dogs.....DUH....the show dogs are equivalent to the PETS as I read some of your posts. Sooooo, it would stand to reason that in these well bred litters you could get show dogs, herding dogs, police dogs, and PETS. The problem is MAN made show about color, or extreme gait, or schutzhund about sport and points. The creation of working and show lines has been disastrous to the breed. As has popularity!
I have always bred for the type dog in the past...yes some of my dogs became LE dogs, but the vast majority of my dogs went into normal HOMES...FACT!
They did great! I bred my first litter in 1975, and last litter in 2008 and have only ever had 2 pups returned of well over 100 pups over the years. I didn't breed every year, but my point is these dogs made fabulous pets! If you had a less active life, they adapted, if you want to be active, they thrived, if you were threatened, they would protect, if you said Okay, they would tolerate or like folks outside their pack depending on the familiarity of the person to the dog.
This has been reported back to me time and time again over the years as people have kept in touch or referred others. The dog in my avatar is the " greeter" in a large pet store in NJ, who greets everyone who enters the store in confidence and joy....his father was a preeminent police dog in NJ....I bred both of them! 
The problem today is breeders have no integrity and are seduced by fads and JQP.
I grew up on Eastern shore of MD, the Chesapeake Bay retriever has remained true to its standard over the years. Unlike the Dobe, Chesapeake breeders are vigilant about retaining true traits of the breed and discriminating about who they sell their pups to. Worked pretty good for them!
The breed doesn't need to be purdied up or dummied down to be a pet.....ignorance leads to this thinking, the same litters that used to produce police dogs used to also produce seeing eye dogs....couldn't THOSE dogs be pets????


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## cliffson1

One last thing, my rant above is geared toward breeders who I think have altered the breed and shown little integrity, folks that are not breeders, though sometimes having the most strident opinions, lol, are NOT responsible for the direction of the breed, though they may think they do. So there is no reason for them to be offended, as for breeders....if I stepped on your toes, please show me where my thinking is detrimental to the breed.


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## astrovan2487

There seems to be an impression that working line dogs cannot be suitable to be great pets in a pet home. There is this myth that they are incapable of living in a home that does not do IPO or some kind of protection, a myth that they are kennel only dogs. I had this same impression before buying my first puppy, went and looked at all kinds of different dogs, pet, show, working lines, and finally decided on a working line because I liked their adaptability and the working line breeders knew their dogs much better than the show lines I saw. My dog (and many other working lines I see on a weekly basis) are a joy to live with, are social, and very adaptable. The myth is just that, a myth, a well bred, balanced working line will adapt to just about any situation. I think a good breeder breeds for that balance that makes the dogs suitable for most owners. Others will breed for extremes, either in conformation or over the top working drives.


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## cdwoodcox

But, there are some WL dogs that would be unsuitable for an average pet owner. So not all WL dogs are created equal. As mentioned above some will have extreme drives etc... Even though the other 5-6 pups will be able to adapt to any environment. So the responsibility falls back on responsible breeders to know and understand which dogs will likely be what by reading the puppies. This of course goes against the average Americans desire to choose a dog based on looks. Plus most people want to spend 300-500 max on a pet. Hard to find a good breeder that sells dogs for that price. So they turn to byb or mills who pump out pups every heat cycle and let first come first pay have pick of the litter. So no matter how hard anyone tries to reign in random breeding it probably isn't gonna happen. So instead of wasting energy fighting a losing battle. Use that energy amongst responsible breeders and build off of the foundation already in place.


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## Honeybee1999

Well I get the impression often from this board that if all you want is a pet, even if you are an "active" home, many or most working lines breeders will not place a puppy with you. Maybe that's a misperception, but I've seen many people come here looking for breeder recommendations that have said it has happened to them.

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## Honeybee1999

And forgive me if my questions seem obtuse or obstinate. I am really trying to dig down and find the real reasons of Why It Must Be So, other than Just Because We Say So.

I am learning a lot, even if it doesn't sound like I am. I absorb and process over time. I don't like to take people's opinions as gospel, until I really understand what they mean and can agree. 

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## Honeybee1999

alexg said:


> That can be turned off, unless you're intentionally advertising the app. :smile2:


Just found that, thanks!


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## Jax08

Honeybee1999 said:


> Well I get the impression often from this board that if all you want is a pet, even if you are an "active" home, many or most working lines breeders will not place a puppy with you. Maybe that's a misperception, but I've seen many people come here looking for breeder recommendations that have said it has happened to them.


That's a misperception. It's been said over and over that not all puppies from WL litters are suitable for sports and work. WL breeders have been recommended time and again to people looking for pets.

I have seen certain breeders not recommended to pet homes because of the amount of drive they are known for producing. But never, as a general rule, have I see people told to not get a working line.


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## Honeybee1999

Well I just browsed the puppy place forum and this thread seemed to raise some of the concerns I had with fitting a working line dog into a family home. Just wondering if the advice to "carefully research if you want a show vs. working line" and that "a working line dog is a big responsibility" is off base? 

The reason I am pursuing this so much now is because we are thinking of adding another dog this year, so I'm really trying to understand the ins and outs of different lines.

Here's the thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=608218


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## Jax08

All dogs are a big responsibility. People have this misconception that all working line are prey monsters that can't settle in the house and want to eat the cat. Or they are all aggression and you can't take them in public. 

Decide what you want. Go find a breeder that produces it. My breeder has dogs in pet homes, SAR, national level IPO dogs. I know several other breeders who place puppies from litters in pet, sar, ipo homes. 

Either line will make a great active pet. Anyone that tells you differently is biased and uneducated.


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## GypsyGhost

Honeybee1999 said:


> Well I just browsed the puppy place forum and this thread seemed to raise some of the concerns I had with fitting a working line dog into a family home. Just wondering if the advice to "carefully research if you want a show vs. working line" and that "a working line dog is a big responsibility" is off base?
> 
> The reason I am pursuing this so much now is because we are thinking of adding another dog this year, so I'm really trying to understand the ins and outs of different lines.
> 
> Here's the thread: Breeder in IL, Chicagoland - German Shepherd Dog Forums


Here's the thing, Honeybee... you have to know who is raising these concerns, who is recommending certain breeders or lines, their preferences in dogs, etc, etc. it's hard to do that based on an internet forum. 

When I was looking for my first GSD, along with a breeder recommendation from an AKC trainer I was working with, I came here. I had decided I wanted a WL dog, a male, and ended up just taking the word of a few posters here that the breeder was awesome. I did not go look at other dogs. I did not visit clubs. I did not question if these people actually did anything with their dogs. The breeder seemed legit, the dogs seemed nice, I was sold. My trainer told me to go to this breeder specifically because she did not do IPO. Because you don't want one of "those" dogs.

My male is a disaster. He is nervy and inappropriately aggressive toward friendly strangers. If I had not looked for a different trainer who actually REALLY knew working dogs, I would have been in serious trouble. If my male had been my only experience with WL dogs, I would have never gotten another WL, and I certainly wouldn't recommend them to anyone else. 

When I started meeting with this new trainer, my eyes were opened. I met her dogs and saw how wonderful WL GSD could (and should!) be. She titles her dogs. She works them herself. She knows their strengths and weaknesses and how to choose breeding partners because of those things. Her program is completely different than my male's breeder.

I now have a female from my trainer's program, and she is wonderful. We do IPO, and she has drive for days, but she is a dream in the house. She has the appropriate temperament for a GSD. She easily could have been just a pet for someone, and she wouldn't really need that much to be happy. A good WL dog should be able to adapt to family life.

So if you really want to learn why it's important that dogs are worked (for breeding), I would recommend you observe at an IPO club. It's the best way to learn! I couldn't really grasp why IPO was so important to the breed until I already had a mess on my hands.


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## GypsyGhost

Oh, and just a little note on my female's littermates and their versatility... there are a few that went to IPO homes, one is in a pet home (and doing very well!), one does herding, and a couple do AKC obedience. So, there is versatility, even though the dam and sire are trained in IPO.


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## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> But, there are some WL dogs that would be unsuitable for an average pet owner. So not all WL dogs are created equal. As mentioned above some will have extreme drives etc... Even though the other 5-6 pups will be able to adapt to any environment. So the responsibility falls back on responsible breeders to know and understand which dogs will likely be what by reading the puppies. This of course goes against the average Americans desire to choose a dog based on looks. Plus most people want to spend 300-500 max on a pet. Hard to find a good breeder that sells dogs for that price. So they turn to byb or mills who pump out pups every heat cycle and let first come first pay have pick of the litter. So no matter how hard anyone tries to reign in random breeding it probably isn't gonna happen. So instead of wasting energy fighting a losing battle. Use that energy amongst responsible breeders and build off of the foundation already in place.


Good points all.

It's astonishing how many people will buy a dog because of coat color. The best breeders I know are now adamant--they will choose puppies for their buyers. If the breeder is experienced in training, she'll know how to evaluate the pups.

As for the bybs, all we can do there is strive to educate the public. Every well bred, sound, properly trained GSD is a good will ambassador for quality breeding and for the breed itself.


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## cdwoodcox

zetti said:


> Good points all.
> 
> It's astonishing how many people will buy a dog because of coat color. The best breeders I know are now adamant--they will choose puppies for their buyers. If the breeder is experienced in training, she'll know how to evaluate the pups.
> 
> As for the bybs, all we can do there is strive to educate the public. Every well bred, sound, properly trained GSD is a good will ambassador for quality breeding and for the breed itself.


The problem with byb and the such is that everyone thinks their gsd is awesome. Or a top rep of the breed. I am on a Facebook GSD site. It's amazing how many people want to breed their German simply because he can carry a big branch across the yard. Or he is smart enough to not run off our 8 acre lot. Try and convince them otherwise and you will get attacked from hundreds of posters who will scream bloody murder that breeding is an owners choice and doesn't hurt anything. Except the big breeders purse. People don't want to hear that their dog is mediocre. Even myself. I was kind of nervous going to IPO club for the first time last week. I thought Athena was a solid dog but these people have titled dogs. How is Athena gonna compare. Well everyone there assured me that Athena would do great in IPO. Had they said she doesn't have it. That would have been rough. Tomorrow I take Athena and Apollo so I'm kind of nervous what they'll say about Apollo. He's still really immature so if he's acceptable we'll start preparing OB for BH with Athena and continue shaping and molding for when he's mature enough to move on.


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## Jax08

@cdwoodcox - don't stress. Have fun. These are your learner dogs. You go as far as you can and you learn for the next one.


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## cdwoodcox

Jax08 said:


> @cdwoodcox - don't stress. Have fun. These are your learner dogs. You go as far as you can and you learn for the next one.


 Yeah, it was fun last week. A lot different than I thought. The nervous is more about others who KNOW GSD's judging your dog. I think Apollo will be fine also but you never know. It is nice knowing that you'll be getting unbiased experienced critiques/opinions. I don't wanna waste my time trying to title a dog that doesn't have it. We could be doing something else with him. But yeah, fun was stressed a lot.


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## zetti

cdwoodcox said:


> The problem with byb and the such is that everyone thinks their gsd is awesome. Or a top rep of the breed. I am on a Facebook GSD site. It's amazing how many people want to breed their German simply because he can carry a big branch across the yard. Or he is smart enough to not run off our 8 acre lot. Try and convince them otherwise and you will get attacked from hundreds of posters who will scream bloody murder that breeding is an owners choice and doesn't hurt anything. Except the big breeders purse. People don't want to hear that their dog is mediocre. Even myself. I was kind of nervous going to IPO club for the first time last week. I thoughxt Athena was a solid dog but these people have titled dogs. How is Athena gonna compare. Well everyone there assured me that Athena would do great in IPO. Had they said she doesn't have it. That would have been rough. Tomorrow I take Athena and Apollo so I'm kind of nervous what they'll say about Apollo. He's still really immature so if he's acceptable we'll start preparing OB for BH with Athena and continue shaping and molding for when he's mature enough to move on.


Don't worry about Apollo's immaturity for IPO. A skilled breeder can start sorting out the good prospects even when they're very young. They'll be able to evaluate his drives and nerves even if he's still a goofball.

That's great about Athena making the cut! Have fun with it and enjoy the enhanced bond with your dogs. Keep us posted about Apollo. We need training pics, too. Usually, your club mates will be happy to oblige.


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## zetti

Jax08 said:


> @cdwoodcox - don't stress. Have fun. These are your learner dogs. You go as far as you can and you learn for the next one.


It really depends on the nature of the club. Ours is a serious working club. They evaluate your dog, if the dog doesn't have it, you're gone. Other clubs will let you join and come back to infinity. All of the clubs I've joined were of the latter type. This is my first experience with a serious working club. It's a super friendly and helpful group, they just won't invest time and effort into a dog who isn't likely to title.

We washed out my husband's WGWL male, but, fortunately, my new puppy is a rock star.


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## onyx'girl

zetti said:


> It really depends on the nature of the club. Ours is a serious working club. They evaluate your dog, if the dog doesn't have it, you're gone. Other clubs will let you join and come back to infinity. All of the clubs I've joined were of the latter type. This is my first experience with a serious working club. It's a super friendly and helpful group, they just won't invest time and effort into a dog who isn't likely to title.
> 
> We washed out my husband's WGWL male, but, fortunately, my new puppy is a rock star.


I think cdwoodcox is in a great club... the training director is very experienced and supportive of newbies. They are also a SAR organization so serious training is very important to them. Of course not all members are in SAR.
To be honest, some trainers want to rush a pup, and not see it for what it genetically is. Not all puppies come out of the box rocking and rolling and if there is something 'there' it will be there as the puppy matures and grows.
I have a higher threshold dog that is nothing like my previous one as far as obedience and protection goes. I had to let him grow more mentally in the protection phase, and thank goodness my own club knows how to work a dog that is not a prey monster. To wash a puppy that may not fit a trainers program, may be wasting that puppy's potential.


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## cdwoodcox

I would definitely want to know if one of my dogs weren't cut out, more than likely or plain out wouldn't title. I would rather not keep another dog who could title off the field, while I wasted myself and everyone else's time. There are plenty of other stuff I could be doing with the dog. Even if it's throwing it a Frisbee or a chuck it.


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## carmspack

"But, there are some WL dogs that would be unsuitable for an average pet owner"

sure . And I have seen lots and lots of "doodles" and "poos" unsuitable for the average pet owner.
Saw so much conflict between pup/dog and owner of every breed , pure bred or not , and of every disposition while either attending or assisting at basic level CD (companion dog) classes.
Do you know how many times that "average pet owner" was the problem. 

GSD are not for everyone. 

HoneyBee "And forgive me if my questions seem obtuse or obstinate. I am really trying to dig down and find the real reasons of Why It Must Be So, other than Just Because We Say So"

Because It Must Be So. There is an expectation . When you have a tap handle that says COLD you do not want to scald your hand because it comes out HOT. 
When you seek out an optometrist you don't want him looking for dental cavities.

When you select a GSD you want certain features. The breed began with a purpose .
You need to look into history . The COUNTRY and the BREED were pretty much born to the same time period.

Time period - 1870's . The new Germany wanted to show the world , with pride, what it could produce , in the era of intra national competititions and livestock , dogs , being one of the arenas in which to exhibit .

The GSD was the national dog . Even at the beginning there was the search for the "beauty" dog. Even at the beginning there were problems because in the search for this beauty compromises were made , and von Stephanitz would have to make great theatre and scare and scatter a ringful of dogs to make it clear . Time for overhaul.


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## carmspack

further to the above , here is a very early version GSD at one of those competitions 

this particular dog belonged to the Prince of Wales (he of Wallis Simpson fame) - 1931

good taste in dogs . Claus of Seale

love the feet and expression .


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## zetti

carmspack said:


> further to the above , here is a very early version GSD at one of those competitions
> 
> this particular dog belonged to the Prince of Wales (he of Wallis Simpson fame) - 1931
> 
> good taste in dogs . Claus of Seale
> 
> love the feet and expression .


 Not so very different from some of today's WLs in type, is he? Thank you for posting.


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## zetti

onyx'girl said:


> I think cdwoodcox is in a great club... the training director is very experienced and supportive of newbies. They are also a SAR organization so serious training is very important to them. Of course not all members are in SAR.
> To be honest, some trainers want to rush a pup, and not see it for what it genetically is. Not all puppies come out of the box rocking and rolling and if there is something 'there' it will be there as the puppy matures and grows.
> I have a higher threshold dog that is nothing like my previous one as far as obedience and protection goes. I had to let him grow more mentally in the protection phase, and thank goodness my own club knows how to work a dog that is not a prey monster. To wash a puppy that may not fit a trainers program, may be wasting that puppy's potential.


Absolutely, there are late bloomers. Our club is just one of those that is risk averse when it comes to investing time and effort. Our dedicated helper drives five hours each way for us. I really respect the value of his time. If he evaluates a pup and can't get anything out of him, he just can't sink a lot of time into that pup in hopes he'll be a late bloomer. 

And our helper has the skill to bring out the best in each dog.

Fortunately, there are other clubs with different training philosophies. And private trainers as well. That may be a good option, too. Some extra work with a private trainer can make a difference.


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## cliffson1

I consult for major animal hospital for pet folks having problems with their dogs. High percent are GS because hospital knows I know a little bit about them.
Do you know how many times I run into situation of normal GS and owner having not a clue about raising a dog????Whew
I mean doing stuff they were told by neighbors. Or better yet what they read on Internet from folks who became experts on the internet. Really!
That's why I get so irritated when I hear someone making statements about things they have little experience with, or worse yet experience with one dog, it was negative and they constantly warn anyone that will listen this will happen to them.
In high percent of cases, after changing owners thinking and actions, their dog fits right in especially if it's a puppy. The only thing I can't fix is when dogs are extremes like genetic shyness, or hyperactivity....these things the owners have to learn to manage the dog or else they end up in shelters. 
My point is a good working or GSL dog should have little problem adjusting to intelligent rearing.
So, to my way of thinking, we shouldn't ever get away from breeding dogs that can't be titled or need fake titles to be titled. Because the reason," that JQP can't handle a proper tempered GS " is promulgated mostly by folks that really don't understand the breed and it's needs. 
Owning a GS by everyone is NOT an inalienable right....some folks are not cut out for this breed and we ought to be honest about it rather than change the breed.


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## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> further to the above , here is a very early version GSD at one of those competitions
> 
> this particular dog belonged to the Prince of Wales (he of Wallis Simpson fame) - 1931
> 
> good taste in dogs . Claus of Seale
> 
> love the feet and expression .



This dog could walk onto most training fields today and not look out of place!!!!!!


Lee


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## carmspack

just love that dog . Look at the bone density , the padded feet meant to travel miles, the ligaments, the well muscled back , the overall muscular tone , the perfect weight and condition . 

This is the conformation that could do this http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n-shepherd-1930s-era-video-awesome-jumps.html

Look at the intelligent expression, the aura of commanding composure, the security and kindness in his eyes.
Here is your good natured , but aloof dog. Here there is no anxiety , no menace. Bold and confident.

and for ease of viewing here is that dog being discussed Claus of Seale


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## carmspack

wolfstraum said:


> This dog could walk onto most training fields today and not look out of place!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Lee


and you know what?

the show line people would hold their guts laughing - because the dog has no angulation.

see how much the breed has improved ? Facetious question.


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## Honeybee1999

I prefer the look of that dog. He looks like he can work out in the field for days without getting tired. He looks like he could work for years without his joints breaking down. He looks like he could be a good family pet that wouldn't cost thousands in vet bills.


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## carmspack

""But, there are some WL dogs that would be unsuitable for an average pet owner"
I responded --
sure . And I have seen lots and lots of "doodles" and "poos" unsuitable for the average pet owner.
Saw so much conflict between pup/dog and owner of every breed , pure bred or not , and of every disposition while either attending or assisting at basic level CD (companion dog) classes.
Do you know how many times that "average pet owner" was the problem

now to expand on that idea.

An entire highly profitable industry rose around the difficulties of the average pet owner . Gurus and followers of The Dog Whisperer and the spawn of that show.

I don't recall a surfeit of GSD , if any at all

The dogs that were dealt with were every kind imaginable including some labs , and mixed breeds . 
.
Repeatedly the solution was handler training . We've sort of lost our common sense knowledge of being with dogs as dogs.

some movies don't help


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## carmspack

lol -- witnessed the average pet owner in a PetsMart this afternoon. 

people do love their dogs. It is a credit to the dogs that so many of them turn out half - normal.

It was a zoo.


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