# I have a question.



## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Killian is 5 months old and we are not going to neuter him, we plan to stud him once he gets old enough and get everything in order. I am wondering, when do we expect him to get "randy"?? Unfortunately we have this dog aggressive shar pei next door who is a "breeding female" by their words(I highly doubt since she hasn't ever been bred nor can she even come near another dog without trying to bite their face off). But since she isn't spayed and they don't have a fenced in back yard and they let their female run free in the yard to go potty. When should we expect Killian to start getting interested in a female in heat? We have a double pane privacy fence, six foot high, so there is no escape for him.... I'm just curious because we've never had a male dog that hasn't been fixed before. Any ideas on when males become interested??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What makes your dog breedworthy to use as a stud? I see he is gorgeous, are you planning on working him in any venues? 
If he wants to get to the in heat female next door, he'll find a way...keep him in your vision at all times. Hopefully she won't be able to escape either!
My 21 month old shows no signs of "randyness" but there are not any females in heat around him. 
Next week at training there will be one who is in heat, he usually doesn't act crazy when there are ones at club in heat, he'll smell where they've been and thats about it. Now that he is maturing, I'll see how he acts when he scents her(we'll be training inside vs outside)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I live in an apartment building and there are two (that I know of anyways) females who are not spayed. 

He is 20 months old and will usually whine, pace and ask to go outside a lot. He will also try to lick where they pottied or try to keep going back to the spot where they had been.

Please keep your boy under your constant supervision. 

If you plan to breed, make sure you get your dog x-ray'd for hips/elbows, work him in some venue to prove sound nerve and temperament and ensure that you are doing so to better to the breed.

What does your dog have that no one else has that can bring something positive to the breed itself? Not looking for an answer, just giving you some things to think about.

Stark has an excellent temperament, sound nerve, is being worked, has his prelims done (too young for officals yet) and is one amazing boy... BUT... he is definitely NOT breed worthy which is why even though he will remain intact for health reasons, he will NOT be bred. If I couldn't ensure that then he would be neutered. JMO.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks for your input, we've given everything you've said lots of thought already before we even brought Killian into our family. Were not backyard breeders and won't be. Killian has a great pedigree and if he is deemed fit to be a stud, we will use the breeder that we got him from and go that route. I am just wanting to make sure we don't have any "oops" puppies. He is never out of our sight, we even go out with him when they go potty. Thanks again!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'll be following this thread with interest. Not planning on breeding, but I don't plan to neuter my Future Puppy until he's 2.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Depends on the dog. Some seem to have more tolerance for a female in heat than others. We have our girl in heat in the house with the 4 intact boys. We make all of them work/obey through her being in heat (I will put my males into a long down and make them hold it while she heels and works around them)- but no one goes off their food, whines incessantly, breaks out of their crates, or any of the other horror stories, although I imagine they must be true for some people. My dogs usually start showing increased interest in the smell of the female's urine around 12 months. And they are usually the ones who'll let us know when she's getting ready to go into heat. They'll start going around and licking her pee spots...we usually need to have her go out last because otherwise all they do it smell pee...but it's really nothing extreme. I've never had a dog lose his mind just because a female was in heat in the neighborhood. 

If she's loose, in heat, and over by your fence you should notice an increased interest on that section of the fence. If you know what your dog's normal behavior looks like, you will notice when it changes and adjust accordingly. You should Never leave him unattended because a determined athletic GSD can clear a 6ft fence. I really think you won't have any problem. 

Did you see this thread? Some good info on recognizing if your dog becomes too interested...
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/147547-unaltered-10-month-old-ok-play.html


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh wow, thank you so much!! That was exactly what I was looking for!! I will be sure to keep an eye out in the near future!!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Thanks for your input, we've given everything you've said lots of thought already before we even brought Killian into our family. Were not backyard breeders and won't be. Killian has a great pedigree and if he is deemed fit to be a stud, we will use the breeder that we got him from and go that route. I am just wanting to make sure we don't have any "oops" puppies. He is never out of our sight, we even go out with him when they go potty. Thanks again!


Regardless of his pedigree and what breeder you "use", you do realize you need to do a bunch of health tests and showing in some venue, right?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

My male lab is 8 and showed interest in females in heat around 10 months. He is the dog that will go off feed, clear a fence, bust out of a crate, and whine day and night for about 2 weeks so beware it is no fun when that time comes,lol. We don't neuter males for health reasons, but he hasn't and never will be bred. Our female Zoe is 13 months and has had one heat....she will be spayed after the New Year so we can all sleep. Maybe you could explain your situation to your neighbor and try to work something out so their female does not make her way into your yard- believe it or not even the meanest female becomes receptive that second week of heat so she may want his attention as much as he will want her's


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with JK (and others) some are more determined than others. I kept an intact male until he was almost 3. At dog shows and such, if he was around any females that were in heat, or coming into heat, he'd be drooling, teeth chattering, he was kinda pathetic) and yes whiney, and definately wanting to get to 'whomever'.

I must say, even tho you've got a good fenced yard, this won't stop a determined male. And that female shar pei just may come looking for it.

I find it easier (less messy) to keep an intact male than an intact female, tho obviously both can be done. 

And males & females can breed EARLY, don't think cause they or he, is around 5-6 months old he can't reproduce, they can


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Regardless of his pedigree and what breeder you "use", you do realize you need to do a bunch of health tests and showing in some venue, right?


Yes, we are very aware of what tests he needs and scores he needs to qualify to stud. Thanks. Were keeping our options open and hoping he grows up to benefit the breed and if he can't. He will not procreate. Plain and simple.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Yes, we are very aware of what tests he needs and scores he needs to qualify to stud. Thanks. Were keeping our options open and hoping he grows up to benefit the breed and if he can't. He will not procreate. Plain and simple.


Cool. Good to hear. 

Uh, just because you didn't elaborate... I don't mean to play 20 questions with you, but you know that he needs more than just health clearances, correct? You need to show and title him as well.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Yes, were very excited to title him. He is actually going to compete in schutzhund if it works out. We have high hopes for this guy and want to give him every opportunity possible!! No problem with 20q's! I can answer what I know and if I don't know the answer, it will give me more stuff to learn!


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Cool. Good to hear.
> 
> Uh, just because you didn't elaborate... I don't mean to play 20 questions with you, but you know that he needs more than just health clearances, correct? You need to show and title him as well.


Why do you feel so strongly about that? It doesn't make any difference to the vast majority of dog owners.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Yes, were very excited to title him. He is actually going to compete in schutzhund if it works out. We have high hopes for this guy and want to give him every opportunity possible!! No problem with 20q's! I can answer what I know and if I don't know the answer, it will give me more stuff to learn!


Awesome! Just wanted to make sure you weren't being led astray by a breeder or anything since I don't know you or the knowledge you posess very well yet. 

Can't wait to hear how he does in Schutzhund. I'd love to show a GSD in it, I'm sure it will be very exciting!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

When Hondo was around 13 months old, he would teeth chatter, drool and mark the game trail in the back of our pasture. We put out our game cam which took a picture of the coyote below. He only showed interest when he was on the trail and showed no difference in behavior otherwise.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *WarrantsWifey*  
_Yes, were very excited to title him. He is actually going to compete in schutzhund if it works out. We have high hopes for this guy and want to give him every opportunity possible!! No problem with 20q's! I can answer what I know and if I don't know the answer, it will give me more stuff to learn!_



> Awesome! Just wanted to make sure you weren't being led astray by a breeder or anything since I don't know you or the knowledge you posess very well yet.
> 
> Can't wait to hear how he does in Schutzhund. I'd love to show a GSD in it, I'm sure it will be very exciting!


You don't "show" in Schutzhund, you trial the dog, big difference...


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

What an awesome photo! Its great to hear all the different types of behavior we CAN experience with him. Since we've kept all our other pets fixed there are a few things I'm not TOO knowledgeable on that has to do with unfixed pets. Thanks everybody for your experiences with your boys!!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I dont' really have anything to add to this conversation, but I just want to say that your dog is GORGEOUS!!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WarrantsWifey*
> _Yes, were very excited to title him. He is actually going to compete in schutzhund if it works out. We have high hopes for this guy and want to give him every opportunity possible!! No problem with 20q's! I can answer what I know and if I don't know the answer, it will give me more stuff to learn!_
> 
> ...


I "show" my dogs in obedience and rally. They are Rally and Obedience trials. No big difference at all. You can say either. 

When we go to the restaurant afterwards I always ask the waiter/waitress to put me near the window where my car is parked because I have "show dogs" in it. 

I get what you are doing, but it isn't what was asked. 

Sounds like the OP is just asking a simple question about keeping his dog safely away from the bitch next door. 

I would not let him in the back yard alone. He might dig out or climb over a fence if she is in heat. But if you go out with him, you will know in plenty of time to ensure nothing happens.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

DJEtzel said:


> Awesome! Just wanted to make sure you weren't being led astray by a breeder or anything since I don't know you or the knowledge you posess very well yet.
> 
> Can't wait to hear how he does in Schutzhund. I'd love to show a GSD in it, I'm sure it will be very exciting!


Good questions to ask, but her breeders do work dogs and title themselves as well. Both have seen Quasi work prior to breeding and we talked a lot prior to the breeding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> I "show" my dogs in obedience and rally. They are Rally and Obedience trials. No big difference at all. You can say either.
> 
> When we go to the restaurant afterwards I always ask the waiter/waitress to put me near the window where my car is parked because I have "show dogs" in it.


Selzer, when you are trialing in SchH, it is to put pressure on the dog in 3 phases to see if they are breedworthy...obedience and rally are not comparable. And it is not a "show" in the conformation sense. 
That was my point, conformation is showing a dog, SchH is a trial of what the dog is made of heart and soul and you are not just showing a body.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No. My dogs are show dogs. I take them to shows. I enter them. They are show dogs. Trials, shows, it is semantics. This guy asked a question about when his pup is likely to show behavior due to being intact around bitches in heat. He did not ask whether or not his dog was breedworthy, should he breed his dog, etc, etc. 

So this is under the heading of unsolicited advice. The guy bought the dog with breeding in mind. He is working with the dog's breeder. He says he understands there are requirements and health tests. People are not going to be happy on here until they rip him a new one and drive him off. 

He is discussing training the dog in schutzhund. Be happy. He said show and not trial, big hairy deal. 

I have been around the block a couple of times and I do know the different phases of schutzhund and the purpose.

They call obedience, and obedience trial. They call Rally a rally trial. They call schutzhund a trial as well. You can say you trial the dog or you show the dog in whatever. My point was not to compare obedience or rally to Schutzhund. 

It was funny though. Last year, there was a schutzhund titled dog in the Rally trial. He kept the dog far away from any other dogs. He would not let anyone hold the dog for him while he did the walk though because he had protection training. I know. I offered. To me that does not indicate good protection training. My friend had a fully protection trained dog, trained in Germany, and it could be held safely by a stranger. It could walk by other dogs to get into the ring. 

Just because a dog gets a schutzhund title, does not mean they have proper temperament, and are not dog aggressive/reactive.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was replying to a question(why do you think its a guy, when _wifey_ is the user name?), you are taking the thread to another level~ going off topic...whatever


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Everybody has a valid point in this thread. Everybody has their own opinion. There are a lot of butting personalities are all merged in one place. I've taken nothing personally and yes the thread did sway from the original topic, and yes, some I was taken aback from. But you can only take whats said and learn and move forward. I value everybody's opinions and thank everybody for answering my questions.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Why do you feel so strongly about that? It doesn't make any difference to the vast majority of dog owners.


It should. Showing a dog proves that it is doing what the breed was meant to do or looks how the breed is meant to. Being healthy is great, but if your GSD looks like a dalmation and has a terrible temperment, it shouldn't be bred. 



onyx'girl said:


> You don't "show" in Schutzhund, you trial the dog, big difference...


Well, Selzer got to it before I did, but they're the same thing. I got to a dog show and trial in agility. They're all used interchangably and I've heard plenty of people that do "trial" in Schutzhund call it a show. No big deal.

I would like to know what you feel the difference is though?

eta; ^ Whoops, posted this much later than I thought and numerous posts had occured since. Your difference means nothing to me, so I will disregard.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> It should. Showing a dog proves that it is doing what the breed was meant to do or looks how the breed is meant to. Being healthy is great, but if your GSD looks like a dalmation and has a terrible temperment, it shouldn't be bred.


Titles don't prove anything to the average potential owner, who probably has things they would rather do with their time than spend it researching the ins and outs of various titles. Obviously dogs with bad temperaments and dogs who "look like dalmations" shouldn't be bred, but just because a dog doesn't have a title, it doesn't mean it wouldn't meet the breed standard or have a bad temperament. I guess I just don't get it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Titles have their place. And people who care about the titles on dogs, will hold out for dogs with titles, titles that meet their standard. For the working dog people that will be Schutzhund or working dog parents, herding dogs, etc. For performance people it will be different. Show people will want champions.

It makes sense if people want to train their dog for similar things. It makes sense if people want dogs from breeders who are involved in training, dog shows, dog clubs, etc.

But there was just a thread about this.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> Titles have their place. And people who care about the titles on dogs, will hold out for dogs with titles, titles that meet their standard. For the working dog people that will be Schutzhund or working dog parents, herding dogs, etc. For performance people it will be different. Show people will want champions.
> 
> It makes sense if people want to train their dog for similar things. It makes sense if people want dogs from breeders who are involved in training, dog shows, dog clubs, etc.
> 
> But there was just a thread about this.


I missed it. I'm just trying to understand why some people think that _only_ titled dogs should be bred. It's hurting my brain so I guess I will go back to work. Otherwise, they balk at paying me.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Titles don't prove anything to the average potential owner, who probably has things they would rather do with their time than spend it researching the ins and outs of various titles. Obviously dogs with bad temperaments and dogs who "look like dalmations" shouldn't be bred, but just because a dog doesn't have a title, it doesn't mean it wouldn't meet the breed standard or have a bad temperament. I guess I just don't get it.


It's about supporting a reputable breeder. They don't do these things, they aren't reputable, you're buying from a backyard breeder and supporting bad examples being bred. 

There's no way to say that it would be giving anything to the breed if it isn't shown. There's no reason to breed a dog if it's not furthering the breed in some way. It's pointless.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The German show standard requires titles, hip and elbow ratings, an endurance test, breed survey, etc.

People have a criteria of what they want to prove that the dog is not just healthy or properly proportioned, good color, they want to prove trainability, temperament, courage, etc. They want to prove the total dog. Titles do not make the dog. They dog not make the sperms smarter. But when you have the titles and the health screenings, and the breed survey, etc., then you have a all around excellent specimen to go forward with.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> It's about supporting a reputable breeder. They don't do these things, they aren't reputable, you're buying from a backyard breeder and supporting bad examples being bred.
> 
> There's no way to say that it would be giving anything to the breed if it isn't shown. There's no reason to breed a dog if it's not furthering the breed in some way. It's pointless.


How does not showing your dog make you a backyard breeder?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Titles don't prove anything to the average potential owner, who probably has things they would rather do with their time than spend it researching the ins and outs of various titles. Obviously dogs with bad temperaments and dogs who "look like dalmations" shouldn't be bred, but just because a dog doesn't have a title, it doesn't mean it wouldn't meet the breed standard or have a bad temperament. I guess I just don't get it.


If you buy a pup and never title it that doesn't mean your dog doesn't meet the breed standard or has a bad temperament. It just means you weren't interested in dog sports, shows, trials etc.

On the other hand, knowing that the sire and dam have titles, (or that there are some titled dogs in the line) helps some people make a more informed decision when they're looking for a puppy, depending on what they want to do with it as it grows. If a breeder says their dogs have great drive as an example, but there's nothing in the line to indicate it, all you have is their word for it.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If you buy a pup and never title it that doesn't mean your dog doesn't meet the breed standard or has a bad temperament. It just means you weren't interested in dog sports, shows, trials etc.
> 
> On the other hand, knowing that the sire and dam have titles, (or that there are some titled dogs in the line) helps some people make a more informed decision when they're looking for a puppy, depending on what they want to do with it as it grows. If a breeder says their dogs have great drive as an example, but there's nothing in the line to indicate it, all you have is their word for it.


Yes, I agree with that. I am wondering about the mindset that says that only titled dogs should be bred.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Yes, I agree with that. I am wondering about the mindset that says that only titled dogs should be bred.


Just like you said, it's a mindset. Some people agree, some don't. 

You seem to feel strongly that the titles shouldn't matter, or matter as much as they do for some people. (or I'm misunderstanding you) 

So if you take away the titles, in your opinion, what criteria should a breeder use when choosing a sire and dam?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Just like you said, it's a mindset. Some people agree, some don't.
> 
> You seem to feel strongly that the titles shouldn't matter, or matter as much as they do for some people. (or I'm misunderstanding you)
> 
> So if you take away the titles, in your opinion, what criteria should a breeder use when choosing a sire and dam?


No, I don't feel strongly that they shouldn't matter, I'm just trying to understand why some people feel it's so important. And no idea; I'm not an expert on GSDs or dogs in general. But I assume knowledgeable breeders would know and choose based on their experience.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

To us, the training, handling and competing/titling with your dog yourself really gives one (as a breeder) a strong understanding of how the dog really is. In addition, test the dog in different fields, helpers (objective, not paid helpers) and test/trial on a different field (not home) is a good barameter of how the dog is.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> No, I don't feel strongly that they shouldn't matter, I'm just trying to understand why some people feel it's so important. And no idea; I'm not an expert on GSDs or dogs in general. But I assume knowledgeable breeders would know and choose based on their experience.


Like I tried saying, these shows (whether it be the breed ring or schutzhund) prove that the dog DESERVES to be bred. There is NO use breeding a dog that has faults or bad nerves, etc. These shows prove that the dog is of suitable looks, has the proper drive and is stable, so that when it is bred, it gives these positive traits to it's progeny and we are not blindly breeding dogs that are not what the breed calls for. 

If you don't show, you have no idea if there are minor faults in your dog's structure that shouldn't be bred, or if your dog really has bad nerves that you'll be passing on. I'm using these examples from the GSD breed of course with the ring and schutzhund, but almost every breed has venues of the sort. With Australian Shepherds there is the breed ring and the stock field. And just like with GSDs, these often split into two different lines; working vs. show.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Like I tried saying, these shows (whether it be the breed ring or schutzhund) prove that the dog DESERVES to be bred. There is NO use breeding a dog that has faults or bad nerves, etc. These shows prove that the dog is of suitable looks, has the proper drive and is stable, so that when it is bred, it gives these positive traits to it's progeny and we are not blindly breeding dogs that are not what the breed calls for.
> 
> If you don't show, you have no idea if there are minor faults in your dog's structure that shouldn't be bred, or if your dog really has bad nerves that you'll be passing on. I'm using these examples from the GSD breed of course with the ring and schutzhund, but almost every breed has venues of the sort. With Australian Shepherds there is the breed ring and the stock field. And just like with GSDs, these often split into two different lines; working vs. show.


Well I agree that I wouldn't know those things but I guess I'm assuming that someone with a lot of breed experience would.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Paula,
The topic of breeding titled vs untitled is as old as time itself.
The SV standard requires that all GSD dogs be titled and breed surveyed (KKL) to be considered "breed worthy" and receive a pedigree of (pink papers).
The USA only requires that both parents be of "pure breeding" to receive our AKC registration papers. Nothing more, nothing less.
Trust me, there are many acceptable "breed worthy" dogs, that should not be bred.
Just as there are many dogs being bred (simply because they can), because there is no "prerequisite" required by the AKC, that also should never be bred....period.
The main problem is_...."every breeder believes that their dogs are breed worthy"._
So...you ask...."shouldn't a person with a lot of breed experience know such things?"....the truthful answer is...*many do not.*
Remember the old saying?......"Do as I say...not as I do"?
Titles are the "icing on the cake"...just be sure that the actual "cake" is good.
JMO...nothing more.
Robin


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Paula,
> The topic of breeding titled vs untitled is as old as time itself.
> The SV standard requires that all GSD dogs be titled and breed surveyed (KKL) to be considered "breed worthy" and receive a pedigree of (pink papers).
> The USA only requires that both parents be of "pure breeding" to receive our AKC registration papers. Nothing more, nothing less.
> ...


Robin, thanks for the info. What is SV?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

SV= Verein fur Deutsche Scaferhund.
It's the German Shepherd Dog registry for Germany.


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## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

I'll chime in here . . . I've just gotten my 4th GSD. The first 2 were from BYBs and while they were great pets, they both had issues - medical and to a certain degree temperament. We got lucky with hips and elbows but I think between the two we had every other German Shepherd/big dog ailment under the sun. We loved these dogs and wouldn't have traded them for the world but . . . when the time came to get the 3rd and 4th GSDs we were more careful and looked for breeders that knew how to select breeding males and females for good health (hips, elbows etc) and temperament. 

I spent hours reading about the different lines (show vs. working) and decided that I really prefer the working line GSDs. Also, though I will probably not work my dog in Schutzhund or SDA I finally realized that finding a dog whose parents were titled gave me a pretty good indication that my puppy would be capable of doing those things. I do want to do basic and advanced obedience and I want a dog who is a well mannered companion that will hopefully be healthy for the majority of his life. The pedigree and titles are not a guarantee that I'll get this but they show the potential (versus a dog coming from parents with no pedigree and no shown potential other than fertility).

I realize much of this has already been said but I think my perspective might be a little different. When I told my husband what I was going to pay for my puppy and for training he was a little skeptical and I wanted to let him know that I wasn't paying for bragging rights but for promise and potential with this pup. 

Now I have him and he has an excellent pedigree and wonderful titled parents (his breeder and father went to the WDA World Championships as an alternate this fall) and I've been thinking about whether to leave him intact or possibly breed him. I'm not ready to make a decision but I do know that if I want to breed him, I will also want to get him titled in something first! (Will CGC count??)


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sandra.....you researched and found exactly what you desired, that is how important finding the _right_ breeder is.
My simple point to Paula is...not all breeders are equal, just as not all dogs are...titled or otherwise.
Robin


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sandra, A CGC is a jumping off point. It does not say the dog is suitable for breeding, but it IS a good test for all dogs and I would encourage you to go for it. 

As for titles, If someone has titled many, many dogs, and has a ton of experience, and is well known and trusted, than I would go with their assessment. 

Anyone else begs why they did not bother. Hearing someone who has nothing on their dogs or just a CGC, or even a CD on a dog say that he is certain the dog is capable of it, but he hasn't [fill in the blank excuse] to get the dog titled, well, I am sorry, but that really is not good enough. I have to take his word, his assessment that the dog has what it takes, and he does not have enough experience or the reputation for that. Also, he may not have because he KNOWS the dog has deficiencies that would make trialing the dog a long, hard, costly adventure.

When you ask about hips and elbows, if a person tells you they had the dog x-rayed and the vet said they were fine, do you accept that assessment or do you hold out for ofa, penn hip, or an SV a-stamp? Most of us want to see that the dogs x-rays have been certified by some registry. Titles are the same deal.

I can TELL you how wonderful my dogs are, but without that extra step, I am only giving my own impression, and while that is just fine for me, and how the dog lives my lifestyle, that may not be indicative of a good solid dog.


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## GSDOWNED (Mar 16, 2010)

I do know someone who breeds rotties. They are all health tested, have great bloodlines, and their CGC. Some are therapy dogs. These dogs are gorgeous and have great temperments but are not titled per say. The breeder stands by her dogs, offers a two year hip/elbow guarantee, a 1 year genetic health guarantee, and if for some reason an owner of one of her pups can no longer keep them, she will gladly take them back. Even though her dogs are not titled, they represent the breed very well and I would never consider her a byb. She only has one litter on the ground at a time. She's doing something right because she always has a waiting list even though her dogs are not titled. Some of her dogs go to show homes but the majority go to companion homes. I think most companion homes aren't looking for titles but great pets and this breeder has great dogs. 

For me, I would not buy a dog without hip/elbow guarantee or did not come from well tempered parents. Titles are icing on the cake. Now, if I'm planning on competing my dogs, I would like to see the sire and dam have some kind of title within the same line I plan on competing. Hence, why we have chosen titled parents for our next GSD. We plan on putting obedience and rally titles on him. Schutzhund is not an option for us as we do not have a club that's within a couple of hours of us. Would be fun to trial in Shutzhund though.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

smdaigle said:


> , I will also want to get him titled in something first! (Will CGC count??)


Personally I don't think a CGC is sufficient for breeding. My Rocky is as nervy as they come and earned a CGC. I'm not saying every breeding dog has to be SchH titled; I'm saying that a CGC is not a sufficient test to say a dog is breedworthy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A CGC isn't a title, just a certificate saying the dog has passed a "good citizen" test. Onyx passed it twice, but I would never have her around small children. 
I would never purchase a pup whose parents weren't titled(for me this is SchH), and I would want those titles earned by the breeder, not sent off for titleing. To each his own as far as who's program to support.
Rottie breeders have a different criteria than GSD breeders.


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## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

selzer said:


> Sandra, A CGC is a jumping off point. It does not say the dog is suitable for breeding, but it IS a good test for all dogs and I would encourage you to go for it.


Ooops . . . I should have added a smiley face. I wouldn't think CGC would be enough either! Until I have more free time it's doubtful that I'll be able to do much more so it's most likely that I won't breed this dog. Then again, when we start training in January I might get hooked on it. Our options are open right now!



selzer said:


> As for titles, If someone has titled many, many dogs, and has a ton of experience, and is well known and trusted, than I would go with their assessment.


I couldn't agree more! I started researching breeders 3 years ago when we got our female and have learned alot about who and what to trust since then. My days of buying from BYBs are in the past!

...




selzer said:


> When you ask about hips and elbows, if a person tells you they had the dog x-rayed and the vet said they were fine, do you accept that assessment or do you hold out for ofa, penn hip, or an SV a-stamp? Most of us want to see that the dogs x-rays have been certified by some registry. Titles are the same deal.
> 
> I can TELL you how wonderful my dogs are, but without that extra step, I am only giving my own impression, and while that is just fine for me, and how the dog lives my lifestyle, that may not be indicative of a good solid dog.


Again, I agree and yes I checked for actual results. Several of the breeders I contacted show the OFA reports on their websites. All good advice!


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## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

I promise to never ever forget a smiley face again. 

I was joking about CGC being enough for breeding!! But this raises the obvious question . . . what is enough? I know there are different types of trials so just give your opinion on whatever type you're most familar with!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

smdaigle said:


> I wouldn't think CGC would be enough either!


I'd like to see the CGC done when the dog is over the age of 1.5-2. I think it would carry more weight.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thats the age Onyx was when she was tested, if I had done it before then she never would have passed because of her fear aggression(it was peaking at 1yr old)
I still have to muzzle her at the vet, too...


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

smdaigle said:


> I promise to never ever forget a smiley face again.
> 
> I was joking about CGC being enough for breeding!! But this raises the obvious question . . . what is enough? I know there are different types of trials so just give your opinion on whatever type you're most familar with!


If you go down to the Breeding-General section and go back a few pages, there are a couple of threads on this very topic. Some of them are quite heated. :help:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It really depends who you are. 

Showline people will want a championship on the dog. Then maybe a TT, or a CGC, or a CD. 

People not showing in conformation, might be more interested in training and titling the dog in a variety or different venues. Rally, Herding, Obedience, Agility, etc.

Working line people would want a dog that is working in the field, or schutzhund titles. 

It is all contraversial and very dependent on the lines and mindset of the owner/breeders. I think a CGC can be done in a training class where a dog is in its comfort zone or should be. I think that dogs should at least go to shows and be trialed where things are a bit more crazy. And it says that the breeders have that much dedication.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> So...you ask...."shouldn't a person with a lot of breed experience know such things?"....the truthful answer is...*many do not.*


Then doesn't this raise the question of whether those people should be breeding dogs at all, titles notwithstanding?

And for the record, I'm mainly thinking of non-backyard breeders here, as I think we mostly all agree they shouldn't be breeding.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Rottie breeders have a different criteria than GSD breeders.


 
What are the differences?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Then doesn't this raise the question of whether those people should be breeding dogs at all, titles notwithstanding?
> 
> And for the record, I'm mainly thinking of non-backyard breeders here, as I think we mostly all agree they shouldn't be breeding.


If I'm understanding what you are asking....I'll use Hondo as an example. Both his parents are titled. He has a long string of titles in his background, but due to an injury as a puppy, he limps. He can never be titled. He can be OFA'd etc. Therefore, if I had all the x-rays etc. completed and he passed all with flying colors. Would still be considered non-breedworthy because he isn't titled? 

This is just an example - Hondo (although I think he is cooler than cool) wouldn't benefit the gene pool.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The titles are the end result of seeing what is in the heart of the dog. If you can't get a title on your dog, then it shows there is something not worth passing along(or handler error). 
Not saying all titled dogs are breedworthy, it is just part of the big picture. 
Who would you rather support as a breeder, one who works their dogs to see what they really have, or one who buys dogs with titles and sits back on the laurels of the titles/pedigree without really, really seeing for themself what the dog is made of? I know which one I would support.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lilie said:


> If I'm understanding what you are asking....I'll use Hondo as an example. Both his parents are titled. He has a long string of titles in his background, but due to an injury as a puppy, he limps. He can never be titled. He can be OFA'd etc. Therefore, if I had all the x-rays etc. completed and he passed all with flying colors. Would still be considered non-breedworthy because he isn't titled?
> 
> This is just an example - Hondo (although I think he is cooler than cool) wouldn't benefit the gene pool.


Forgetting his injury - which should have no impact on the decision to breed him. What would make him (the individual dog) worthy of breeding?

Titles and parent titles and health (i.e. OFA) are really just prerequisites - the real criteria is the dog itself - is he/she a great representative of the breed? Will they likely add something to the breed through their puppies? The other stuff should only serve to strenghten the case for the individual dog/bitch as being worthy of being bred.

And if it is proven thru the first couple of litters from the dog that they do not pas on whatever great qualities they themselves have (structure and/or mind) then they should NOT be bred any more.


Just a thought (or two).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

codmaster said:


> What are the differences?


Rottie:
DKV Rottweilers Breed Test Levels
This for a GSD:
Per Robins post:
The topic of breeding titled vs untitled is as old as time itself.
The SV standard requires that all GSD dogs be titled and breed surveyed (KKL) to be considered "breed worthy" and receive a pedigree of (pink papers).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Forgetting his injury - which should have no impact on the decision to breed him. What would make him (the individual dog) worthy of breeding?


I think she said he isn't. She said he "wouldn't benefit the gene pool."


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Rottie:
> DKV Rottweilers Breed Test Levels
> This for a GSD:
> Per Robins post:
> ...


Thanks! So these are for Rotties in Germany, right?

Has the Rottie club of America adopted these criteria? Or do they have their own?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I think she said he isn't. She said he "wouldn't benefit the gene pool."


My point was not so much that individual dog - just that every individual dog contemplated for breeding should be an outstanding individual in and of itself and titles of any type are only a "requirement", not a reason, to breed!

Sort of like having a college degree is a requirement to get a job in many organizations, but it certainly doesn't act as a 
guarantee that one will be an outstanding employee, does it?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

On the other side of the coin, as a puppy buyer....I wouldn't pay 1/4 the price for a pup that doesn't have titled parents. 

I really don't know what I'd look for if I were just looking for a pet type dog. But I know I'd have to have x-rays etc.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I'd like to see the CGC done when the dog is over the age of 1.5-2. I think it would carry more weight.


 The issue with CGC isn't so much the age but that some evaluators don't appear to have ever even read the evaluator's handbook. I have given a lot of CGC tests and while I would love for everyone to do well, I would say on average I have to fail 5-20% at any given test. Of course, this varies. Some tests I have done everyone has deserved to pass and did. But at one test, I had at least two dogs growl at me right off the bat and I had a higher than normal fail rate that night. Some evaluators seem to never fail any dogs. I have seen evaluators allow dogs to pass who won't sit or lie down on cue, jumped up to greet them, were fearful when examined, were afraid of the distractions, barked during the supervised separation and other things which clearly should fail a dog. I have seen CGC classes pick and choose evaluators because a dog in the class can't be examined by a man or by someone tall or... 

While I'm sure those evaluators are well meaning, it really devalues the program to pass dogs which don't meet the criteria. And it gives the owner's a false sense of accomplishment to get a certificate that their dog didn't really earn. CGC testing is sort of done on the honor system. Once you are certified (fairly easy to accomplish), you are expected to read the evaluator's guide and give tests accordingly. AKC doesn't require reps to be at testing or any special evaluator's education. I'm not sure there is really any other logical way to do it, that would still allow the testing to be done as widely as it is now. It would be nice if all the evaluators respected the system though. And if you just feel too bad failing someone, don't give tests or participate by assisting an evaluator who will be honest.


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## GSDOWNED (Mar 16, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Rottie:
> DKV Rottweilers Breed Test Levels
> This for a GSD:
> Per Robins post:
> ...


I do understand what you're saying but...there are a lot of breeders who don't have sv (pink papers) for their dogs even though the sire and dam of that dog are sv, a stamped, titled, and kkl rated. Some people as myself will be AKC registering our puppy, health certifying with the OFA, and getting him titled in obedience and rally. This is what is readily available in our area. If and when we decided to breed him, all of his health certifications and titles will be in order. Will it mean that he won't be breed worthy if we don't go by SV standards even though we've accomplished titles and health certifications per AKC and OFA?

I can't say from personal experience, but I've heard of some dogs who can't get an OFA certification but can get A stamp normal or fast normal. Does that mean OFA is more critical of hips and elbows than the SV? I'm not trying to down the SV just thinking every registry has it's problems. I think the AKC should require any breed with HD/ED histories to be OFA certified before breeding. If you don't do it, you can't register your litter. However, AKC only requires registration papers as we all know which helps the byb.

I'm one of those people who believes everyone has the right to their own opinion. I respect others opinions and welcome what I may learn.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

GSDOWNED...
If a breeder is following the SV guidelines for breeding, it usually means that they are participating in German style venues here in the USA, follow either the WDA/USA GSD Club venues or are participating in SV venues in Germany...(we do both). 
The AKC registry governs the USA...there are no prerequisites for registry other than being of pure bred (registered) parents. 
I am not chastising the AKC...I am only stating a fact.
As for OFA vs SV A-Stamp.....everyone has an opinion, including myself. I believe in both and have done both...but primarily we do the SV A-stamp...because our dogs often have them done either right before they leave to Germany, or while they are there....also the SV does not recognize the OFA certification for elbows yet. (easier to have things done the same way continuously)
ALL registries have their problems & complications....not one is perfect. 
Robin


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Maybe we should open a new thread about this, this one has been kinda highjacked...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

AKC is an all breed registry.
SV is a German Shepherd Registry. 

It is comparing apples to oranges. I do not want to see the AKC set the standards for what GSDs are breedworthy. For one thing, they would not recognize schutzhund titles at all. 

Which orthopaedic registry is best? I don't know. I do know that some Fast normal dogs have sired OFA good dogs. It is not even, a-normal does not equal ofa excellent and so forth down the line. But fast normal can come out ofa good or ofa fair. And NZ is still passing, and can get a passing rating from ofa as well.

If a litter was bred in Germany, the AKC should not register the puppies if the sire and dam are not ofa'd??? That will go over real big. 

As for getting a dog already titled as opposed of putting titles on yourself. I think that if a breeder has titled dogs and knows what it entails, and then purchases a dog with titles, I do not see the problem.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yes, but some titles can be bought...and if you aren't doing the training yourself (HOT) it is a bit harder to see the strengths and weaknesses to properly do breeding matches. 
Many breeders buy already titled stock or send a dog away for titles, because they don't want to put the time and effort into training/trialing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Yes, but some titles can be bought...and if you aren't doing the training yourself (HOT) it is a bit harder to see the strengths and weaknesses to properly do breeding matches.
> *Many breeders buy already titled stock or send a dog away for titles, because they don't want to put the time and effort into training/trialing*.


I guess I am sure that some trainers do. 

But, some trainers buy an adult bitch, already titled, hip and elbow certified, breed surveyed, etc., because puppies are a crap shoot. 

If you want a foundation bitch, something to really make a difference in what you are producing, want to up the quality of what you are producing, then getting an adult dog makes sense.

Now do you just buy an adult dog that has sat in a kennel for two years, and has good hips and elbows? Doesn't it make more sense to buy a dog that has been worked with and trained. 

I really do not see any problem with this approach. 

If EVERY dog you purchased is already titled or if you send out for the dogs to be titled, well, at least the dog is capable of being trained and titled. 

I guess I would rather see someone pay for their dogs to be titled, or buy them titled, than to simply say "most people do not care about titles" and not bother with them at all. 

Do you know more about your dog after you have trained the dog to reach a level of competance in a sport? Yes. An experienced breeder should be able to get pretty close to the same assessment though without going through the process with every single dog. 

Does it make a difference if the bitch was trained and titled within a specific time frame, three months? six months? 

Would it matter if the bitch had that title prior to being two years old? 

I think that making a blanket statement about people buying titled stock or sending breeding animals out for training and titling, is because they are too lazy to work the dog themselves is a bit out there in my opinion.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did I use the word "lazy"? I did not. 
It was not a blanket statement, I said *many* not *all*...and if you look at several kennel websites, you'll see that many breeders do not train/title their own, though many(thankfully) do.
Usually it it the working line breeders who do so-though there are WL breeders who don't of course.
I think a rushed time frame for titles is not very smart either. I know females have only so many years to produce, so many breeders will ship them to Germany and have them titled/ bred sent back for whelping. And I know one reason for that is the fact that shipping semen is prohibited in Germany. So easier for the breeder to send the female over for the full treatment.
Selzer you sure do take my posts personally. Not sure what the reason for that is...


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

selzer said:


> Do you know more about your dog after you have trained the dog to reach a level of competance in a sport? Yes. An experienced breeder should be able to get pretty close to the same assessment though without going through the process with every single dog.


If the breeder has never done any training/titling, how would they do this? It is usually based on who sold them the dog, paid trainers and/or helpers.

And experienced trainers that do title dogs will not automatically assume assessments on dogs. They will work them.

You are lucky. You have a great schutzhund club close to you - something most people do not have that do schutzhund.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

:thumbup: Smithie86!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Smithie86 said:


> If the breeder has never done any training/titling, how would they do this? It is usually based on who sold them the dog, paid trainers and/or helpers.
> 
> And experienced trainers that do title dogs will not automatically assume assessments on dogs. They will work them.
> 
> You are lucky. You have a great schutzhund club close to you - something most people do not have that do schutzhund.


I do? Where is it? We were just discussing this the other day, it must be a pretty well kept secret. Could you tell me what great Schutzhund club is near me.

Edit, they will work them, not necessarily title them again.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Did I use the word "lazy"? I did not.
> It was not a blanket statement, I said *many* not *all*...and if you look at several kennel websites, you'll see that many breeders do not train/title their own, though many(thankfully) do.
> Usually it it the working line breeders who do so-though there are WL breeders who don't of course.
> I think a rushed time frame for titles is not very smart either. I know females have only so many years to produce, so many breeders will ship them to Germany and have them titled/ bred sent back for whelping. And I know one reason for that is the fact that shipping semen is prohibited in Germany. So easier for the breeder to send the female over for the full treatment.
> Selzer you sure do take my posts personally. Not sure what the reason for that is...


"Won't put the time and effort into training and trialing does sound like a judgement about whether someone is lazy."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I do? Where is it? We were just discussing this the other day, it must be a pretty well kept secret. Could you tell me what great Schutzhund club is near me.


If I lived closer I'd love to train with this group...in fact a friend of mine drives several hours to train with them!
About Us


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, they are in Columbus. That is three and a half hours each way. It really is too far for me to manage. 

As I said, we were just talking about whether or not anyone was doing Schutzhund around here.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I thought Denmark is just about an hour north from Columbus, just up 71? And Cory Dewberry is there as well.

Not well kept secret. The clubs are listed on the org web-sites. When I moved, not only did I check the web-sites, but I called a few K9 departments and asked them. That way, you find out about the clubs as well as some of the training groups.

"Edit, they will work them, not necessarily title them again."

If an experienced trainer buys a titled dog, it is usually to compete with. If a breeder buys a titled dog (and is not a trainer) it is usually to breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Selzer the Columbus club members rotate to different cities for training, as many of them live a few hours away from each other. They may be more local to you with the rotation schedule. Worth contacting if you are interested.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> I guess I am sure that some trainers do.
> 
> But, some trainers buy an adult bitch, already titled, hip and elbow certified, breed surveyed, etc., because puppies are a crap shoot.
> 
> ...


Urm, that is actually common procedure. And usually the one training and titling the bitch is promised a litter or the first choice out of the first litter or simply being paid as compensation. 

I don't see anything wrong with sending a dog away, however it can also go horribly wrong. Yukon is the prime examply of why you shouldn't send a dog away. But then again, dozens of other dogs never went through the experience Yukon did. They all got titled and came back as great dogs...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Smithie86 said:


> *I thought Denmark is just about an hour north from Columbus, just up 71? And Cory Dewberry is there as well*.
> 
> Not well kept secret. The clubs are listed on the org web-sites. When I moved, not only did I check the web-sites, but I called a few K9 departments and asked them. That way, you find out about the clubs as well as some of the training groups.
> 
> ...


No, Denmark Ohio, (at least the Denmark, Ohio, I live in) is a crossroads in Ashtabula County. Ashtabula County is the largest county in the North East corner of the state. We are bordered by PA, and Lake Erie. 

My address is Jefferson, Ohio because Denmark is too small for a post office. My light bill comes to Denmark, my phone is a Dorset exchange, and the school district is Jefferson, not Buckeye like the other half of Denmark township. 

We are an hour East of Cleveland, and almost an hour west of Erie, PA; we are an hour north of Youngstown, and about 12 minutes from the lake. 

Years ago, I would probably not hesitate to use a Saturday, driving three and a half hours for a class, work one or two dogs, and then drive the same back. But now I find that drives of little more than an hour put me to sleep. It would be dangerous for me to do this on a regular basis. Dangerous to do it at all really. I live in a remote area. I have driven to classes about 45 minutes each way. And shows about 1.5 hours away, max.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Selzer,

I was going off of your location listed above. Based on the map, it was showing 60 miles.

But on your corrected location, you are still within multiple clubs. OG buckeye is 1.5 hours , OG penn is 40 minutes.

A few hours to a club is normal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A few hours to a club may be normal for normal people. I am no longer able to drive long distances safely. But I will check out OG penn. OG buckeye is too far.

Oh, and 40 minutes in May through September may be much longer in those other months here.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

You people confuse me. Since this thing went wacky anyway, let me add that it is too bad human beings don't have to be examined in this same way for a blessing to pro-create.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Wel this thread sure went WAAAAAAY off of a simple question.

Ok with Grim, I never saw crazed. I did see the drooling, teeth chattering eyes glaze over upon encountering the odor of a female in heat. I got him at two so I don't know "when" he started showing interst. A little restless. But that was about it. 

More erections than typical. Some young dogs will get themselves in trouble and get so aroused the bulb of the penis will prevent it from retracting and then you can get in real trouble (paraphimosis)...sometimes hair gets wrapped around the shaft and prevents retraction so I would watch out for that. It is a very serious condition if it happens. Saw it all the time in kennel dogs when I worked at a vet school.


I would talk with the neighbor and ask them two let you know because of the possibilty. Some dogs will go to great lenghts to access a female in heat. He should be concerned about the size difference if nothing else.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread is old, it was bumped from highartics _very_ odd post... I think(hope) WarrantsWifey has it figured out by now!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> No, Denmark Ohio, (at least the Denmark, Ohio, I live in) is a crossroads in Ashtabula County. Ashtabula County is the largest county in the North East corner of the state. We are bordered by PA, and Lake Erie.
> 
> My address is Jefferson, Ohio because Denmark is too small for a post office. My light bill comes to Denmark, my phone is a Dorset exchange, and the school district is Jefferson, not Buckeye like the other half of Denmark township.
> 
> ...



Denmark, to me, is a country, a ten hour drive away from where I used to live in Germany.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

High Arctic-- raw T-bone steaks are fine, but I'm not sure about sausages. What kind of spices or herbs are in the sausage?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

High Arctic said:


> I have no idea where you are. I just have to state that I am very computer illiterate. I don't know where you are from - ignorance is bliss (sometimes). I'm just trying to post my questions!
> 
> My question is this - I live in the high arctic and summer is really short - not to mention spring! Anyway, I like to bbq in the spring and summer.
> 
> ...


Hi High Arctic (hey, that was fun to say!), welcome to the forum. We have winters similar to yours (where are you?). My dogs have been doing fine no issues. More than 'bulking' them up for winter, dealing with the very dry air is the real challenge. I give them lots of sardines, and add Salmon oil and beef fat to their food. I feed raw, so that helps a lot in keeping their skin and coat in good condition. 

Nothing wrong with giving them some leftover stead or sausage as a treat, especially if your dog tolerates it well. But don't give any cooked bones - remove the bone if feeding T-bones, for example. Cooked bones are hard and can splinter and cause problems. Raw bones will get chewed up easier and will get digested. 

Days are getting shorter fast here too - it is getting depressing.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I tried to read through all ten pages, I really did... but I failed  

Anyway, just wanted to add... I have talked to quite a few people who purchased a dog from a good breeder -- a breeder they say did all the appropriate health testing and titling (etc etc etc) and now, since they have this diamond in the rough puppy they think it's pedigree alone is good enough to make it a breeding dog.

To those people I say, most litters DO NOT produce dogs worthy to breed. Most litters of puppies are 'pet quality' ... the few puppies that have potential are either with held by the breeder or very specifically placed with other breeders to enhance their lines. 

I really do think BYB are started by people who get a great dog, and then (in their eyes) find another 'great' dog and put the two together... 

I don't think breeding should ever be the goal. If you love your dog, and you love the breed -- the goal should be to prove JUST how worthy your dog is to pass on his genetics. People are blind when it comes to their own dogs, they think their dog is perfect... and for that reason I find showing or working and getting proof from a second/third/fourth (and so one) source so very important! I want to be able to talk to other people who claim you have a great dog worthy of being bred!


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Hahaha, I just spent all that time reading through a rather old post  oh well. 

Maybe, just maybe I should have finished reading the last two pages


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Dont feel bad, I read all 10 pages for a super old topic as well, LOL.


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