# Smack the dog?



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

I hope this doesn't get too heated in controversy. i don't abuse any animals but i'll give a light butt smack along with a loud NO if something serious happens like knocking over the trash can to get to chicken bones. anybody else give smacks or anybody want me arrested?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I have to swat my dog on occasion. She's too dense and stubborn on occasion if she really gets it into her head. She also likes rough housing and harder pats though. The new pup I have though wouldn't be able to handle it. As far as I can tell she was abused pretty bad in her previous home. She can barely handle noise corrections. I was trying to grab her collar because she ran out the door and wasn't coming back to me and she yipped like I hit her when I never even touched her. Also had to pick up a toy sword from the ground and she ran whimpering into the kitchen peeing all over. She's getting a lot better now though, starting to learn I'm not going to hit her. 
Basically it depends on the person and the dog, there's a huge difference between a corrective action and hitting/beating your dog but some people don't see that line. They think they have to use physical force on their dog because dogs are animals and that's all they understand.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... well if you were "expecting "universal" condemnation??? Sorry to disappoint?? As a general rule ... I tend to advise people to use a "Drag Leash" so that you don't have to be laying hands on a dog and stuff! And for the vast majority of "Dog Owners" that's good advise. 

I pretty much wound up being the "puppy Bonker" for awhile back. A towel wrapped bound with rubber bands and if a dog is engaging in a behaviour that is unacceptable or could get them killed!! Counter surfing for instance you throw the "Bonker" at the dog and hit them in the head with it! 

The "Bonker" was brought to my attention by Jeff Gellman and it was pioneered by "Gary Wilkes!" A "click and treat trainer" as a matter of fact ... I found that interesting. 

but you know as to "actually "laying hands on the dog??" Apparently you missed the thread?? And it's funny that you are in "NC??" Because as it happens ... Baillif did a thread on this very subject here or maybe he just chimed in another thread??? And as I understand he is in "NC???"

As I understand ... he will train,clients in the "g" for those who are interested?? If he does not happen to see this thread?? Then just PM him .. tell him Chip sent you. 

Oh and perhaps I should drop a line to Gary and Jeff ... a "towel bound with rubber bands" was to much work for me?? I found a pair of bowled up heavy socks ... does the same thing and is much more accurate at a distance! 


So sorry ... no "universal condemnation" as I am want to say ... there is always that guy.!


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

chip, you talk like an android.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The only time I have smacked mine is breaking up a fight amongst them and it's done to distract them or throw them off because it doesn't ever happen otherwise.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm not one to really hit a dog unless it is truly in self defense. I have however used the knuckle bonk to the snout to stop chewing on my blankets a time or two. Just enough to get attention when the verbal NO isn't doing it. 

Extenuating circumstances- I did recently hit a friends Great Dane pretty hard in the anus with the clip end of a leash while trying to get it to stop attacking a deer trapped in a fence. Was hoping the sting would distract him enough to stop the attack. It was a pretty ugly scene. Oh and the leash whack to the butt didn't faze the Dane in the least.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Never would I hit my dogs. Not even Murph. That's typically done in anger, to punish, not correct.

There are better ways to break up a dogfight. Hitting can just push up the fight drive, if he feels it at all, with so much adrenaline pumping.

Get one of the dog's front feet off the ground with a collar grab. It's disorienting to the dog. 

If you're having behavior problems severe enough to cause you to hit your dog, learn to use an e collar.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I beat my dogs multiple times daily. Half the time I'll use my hands the other half I have this piece of 1/2 pvc waterline about 4 1/2 foot long. I'll use to smack them with. Now the pvc does have a rope that runs through it with a toy tied to the one end. Once they get to chasing and biting the toy I take the pvc and smack them around with it. Or if we're just playing tug I'll smack them around with my hands pretty hard. They seem to enjoy it. I found that you can smack the heck out of them either with hands or pvc and they don't care. They seem to get more fired up. So I figure if they can handle the amount and firmness of blows they get during play a tap to the snout with a no attached probably isn't gonna traumatize a dog. 
Obviously as someone above pointed out. It can be taken to extreme where the dog cowers in fear. In which case I see nothing wrong with smacking the abuser/owner.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I don't want to hit my dogs because I don't want them to flinch from a raised hand, but I did smack my boy the other day when he went to nip my vacuum cleaner. I tell him to Sit, and he does until furniture blocks his view. I could lock him out of the room, too. Honestly, I don't mind his excitement for the vacuum. Lets face it, it is in the classic play pose and smells like all of the house smooshed up together. Nipping at the vacuum is dangerous, though.


----------



## Crunch Hardtack (Dec 22, 2016)

I smacked my second boy Amos a few times out of frustration when he was younger and I was _*A LOT*_ younger. Never felt right.

There were times when Amos as an adult was with his litter mate or other larger dogs and just horsing around as dogs do, and I wanted him to come. He would give me that cocky, defiant and rebellious GSD look, prance in front of me, and then proceed to fool around with his buds. I figured if he wasn't going to listen to me as a human, then he must listen to me as his pack leader.

In such cases when he just wouldn't obey (Which were few and far between: most wonderful, loving and obedient dog.), I would grab and lift him off his paws, body slam him to the ground (did I mention I was much younger then?), and then give him a good firm correction bite on the middle of his muzzle; just enough to pique his attention. In dog terms, he knew I meant business. The look on his face was priceless! Needless to say, I only had to resort to muzzle biting 3-4 times, when he learned that when I gave a command I meant it. Been faithful and responsive since.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I give light butt smacks to Charlie but its mostly in fun when were playing.


----------



## deldridge72 (Oct 25, 2011)

My father gave some great advise years ago that I use still-spank them, then love them, they will never cower-whereas he was speaking of child rearing-I've used it with many species and have happy obedient companions.


----------



## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

I have, but only when he would not stop jumping on my daughter and biting her hands. She's only 2 and has no way to defend herself from him.


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I have smacked Newlie on the butt occasionally when he has done something that he KNOWS is against the rules. For example, I worked and worked with Newlie not to grab things like balls or cookies out of my hands. He proceeded to do it once too often and I smacked him. Guess what, he doesn't do it anymore. Keep in mind, this is very rare, only with an open hand and not very hard. I think somehow he just knows whenever I do that that I have had enough.

Newlie never flinches from my hands because 99.9% of the time, my hands are used to express affection.

I am interested in the reason why there are some people who feel a leash correction, even a harsh one, is OK, but not this kind of correction. I am not being sarcastic, I would really like to understand.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Are you taking about a smack as in hurting the dog or as a tap to get their attention? I can't even get into a hitting thread. Why would anyone hit their dog for fun? I hope some of the posts here were said in sarcasm. Smacking a dog with a pipe?


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Are you taking about a smack as in hurting the dog or as a tap to get their attention? I can't even get into a hitting thread. Why would anyone hit their dog for fun? I hope some of the posts here were said in sarcasm. *Smacking a dog with a pipe?*


sarcasm- cdwoodcox made a flirt pole and was playing with his dog :grin2:


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Springbrz said:


> sarcasm- cdwoodcox made a flirt pool and was playing with his dog :grin2:


Thank you. I couldn't tell. Then no, I don't hit my dogs. I have tapped to divert attention, but not more than a touch.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

scarfish said:


> chip, you talk like an android.


Sorry Chip, but I have stopped reading your posts because of all the fluff, the punctuations, capitols etc. Some don't make sense to me and I don't understand what you are actually are trying to say. Try to get to the point. Or am I missing something? :|


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zetti said:


> Never would I hit my dogs. Not even Murph. That's typically done in anger, to punish, not correct.


"typically" ????? are you thinking about yourself or others?? I like newlie's question.." I am interested in the reason why there are some people who feel a leash correction, even a harsh one, is OK, but not this kind of correction. I am not being sarcastic, I would really like to understand. "

Can a smack be administered without anger?...... Is a prong and e-collar always used without any anger? 

And......what exactly is the difference between "punish" and "correct" ? Is P+ not a correction?

I ask many questions........

SuperG


----------



## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Lol mine steals stuff.....towels, shoes, phones...never chews it up, just steals it and hides it, always when I'm home too...like I'll go to the kitchen and the dish towel is suddenly gone....anyhow nothing worked, so one day when I caught him sneaking around with my winter boot I smacked him with a rolled up newspaper, probably wasn't too painful but made a whole bunch of noise and guess what...the kitchen towel and the boots now stay put .. not proud of it and some stuff still go missing (socks) but now when he barks for no reason or jumps on anyone I just have to pick up a newspaper and show it to him and suddenly he's well behaved again  Hey I'm old and old fashioned...I spanked my kids a few times during their lifetime (believe me they deserved it at that time) and they turned out all right.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Nothing wrong with physically punishing a dog as long as it is done correctly.

Bart Bellon used to say you can call yourself a good trainer if you can take a stick and punish the dog with the stick, guide the dog with the stick, play a game of fetch with the stick, and pet the dog with the stick and at the end of the day still have the dog emotionally neutral to the stick.

Correction is a catch all term for either negative reinforcement or positive punishment or something that falls somewhere between those two quadrants.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Sorry Chip, but I have stopped reading your posts because of all the fluff, the punctuations, capitols etc. Some don't make sense to me and I don't understand what you are actually are trying to say. Try to get to the point. Or am I missing something? :|


Maybe there's some inside joke that makes this make sense. but, how does punctuation make something not understandable.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

SuperG said:


> "typically" ????? are you thinking about yourself or others?? I like newlie's question.." I am interested in the reason why there are some people who feel a leash correction, even a harsh one, is OK, but not this kind of correction. I am not being sarcastic, I would really like to understand. "
> 
> Can a smack be administered without anger?...... Is a prong and e-collar always used without any anger?
> 
> ...


Has he received any acceptance letters yet?


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

cdwoodcox said:


> Maybe there's some inside joke that makes this make sense. but, how does punctuation make something not understandable.


it's not just the punctuation, it's almost like he's speaking in some special code where i can't pull out the point. after a 13 different sentence post with all sorts of ...!!! and emojis i'm left confused on if he's agreeing or disagreeing with something. i'm a bad reader, never read a book in my life so maybe it's just me.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

scarfish said:


> it's not just the punctuation, it's almost like he's speaking in some special code where i can't pull out the point. after a 13 different sentence post with all sorts of ...!!! and emojis i'm left confused on if he's agreeing or disagreeing with something. i'm a bad reader, never read a book in my life so maybe it's just me.


LMAO!! 
How have you never read a book. No Stephen king, Charlottes web, Tom sawyer and Huck Finn. Nothing?
And in chips defense his posts aren't that bad. You ought to see my kids type. It looks like Chinese. emojis, abbreviations. If they use 5 actual words in a small paragraph its amazing.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Sometimes a light smack is the only way to "snap them out of it". But only on very rare and troublesome occasions, maybe once a year or once every couple years. I really try to not ever do it and only remember one time in the last 5 or so years I have actually done it.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> Maybe there's some inside joke that makes this make sense. but, how does punctuation make something not understandable.


I read fast. Weird punctuation slows me down, so I skip posts like that.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Has he received any acceptance letters yet?


Great.....now I have to change them again......you figured out those "titles" quickly enough........


SuperG


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Sorry Chip, but I have stopped reading your posts because of all the fluff, the punctuations, capitols etc. Some don't make sense to me and I don't understand what you are actually are trying to say. Try to get to the point. Or am I missing something? :|


I thought it was just me that got confused.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I'll give a swat on the butt sometimes. Definitely not pain involved, and it's always when they are doing something they know they shouldn't be doing. (head in the trash can, grabbing a kids toy,on a chair) They look at me with an Oh Crap look, caught again.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

No, maybe a nudge because she likes to stand there and or lays in the walk way, but can't bring myself to do that to my dog.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

scarfish said:


> it's not just the punctuation, it's almost like he's speaking in some special code where i can't pull out the point. after a 13 different sentence post with all sorts of ...!!! and emojis i'm left confused on if he's agreeing or disagreeing with something. i'm a bad reader, never read a book in my life so maybe it's just me.


 Just hit "Ignore" and call it a day. I don't appeal to the "masses" learned that one early on. I'm good with that.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Sometimes a light smack is the only way to "snap them out of it". But only on very rare and troublesome occasions, maybe once a year or once every couple years. I really try to not ever do it and only remember one time in the last 5 or so years I have actually done it.


A "Bonker" serves a "similar purpose" but no "owner association" ... but it can also work at a distance to stop a behaviour! Think "Cat Chasing or Counter Surfing" or "Pack fights" (which ... is where it came from!) Act of "God Correction" ie where did that come from???


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip don't get carried away.Stop a serious fight by throwing a rolled up sock?Maybe between a pack of hamsters


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> A "Bonker" serves a "similar purpose" but no "owner association" ... but it can also work at a distance to stop a behaviour! Think "Cat Chasing or Counter Surfing" or "Pack fights" (which ... is where it came from!) Act of "God Correction" ie where did that come from???


Please elaborate, is it like an e-collar? Lol @ act of God correction.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Chip don't get carried away.Stop a serious fight by throwing a rolled up sock?Maybe between a pack of hamsters


Nope ... don't shoot the messenger! I am not the originator of the (Bonker) technique (although to be "accurate" ... I do say use a rolled up pair of socks instead of going to the trouble to roll up a towel and bind it with rubber bands.  )

But no, the originator of the "Bonker" is "Gary Wilkes!" And whether or not he knows it ... it is also simply a "variation" on the "KMODT" ... throw chain technique!

"Act of God" correction" ... ie, where did that come from??? When Gary Wilkes, actually stumbled onto it ... he used a "Throw Pillow" to stop to "Herder dogs" that were about to throw down! It was all he at hand at the time ... worked out fine, the dogs bolted "away from each other!!"

If you actually have question ... "ask him!" He is on Facebook here.:

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Gary+Wilkes&init=public

But be respectful, if you chose to ask questions "there" as he does not bear "Fools" well! He makes me look like a ***** cat, ... just saying. 

Aside from "baillif" here and "Bte" on "boxerforurm" (Pro's that do pets) don't do "Open Forum" cause you know ... everybody is a freaking "expert??"


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Bonker, salad bowl, toothbrush, e-collar, box of chocolates etc....doesn't much matter ......when a dog learns you can reach out and "touch" them......behaviors change.

Always figured the first time I took my dog to a beach.....the poor fool wearing sandals might have a bad day.....never happened.


SuperG


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

I have swatted on the nose Jack a time or two. Usually for doing things like refusing to leave food on the table alone after being told to leave it, refusing to stop mouthing us too hard even though we told him to stop, or continually molesting the cats after being told to stop.

It doesn't phase him emotionally. That dog could take a 2x4 to the head and think it was a game (not that I would actually do that). It does, however, carry the message across and he tries his best to reign himself in. For example, he might still be trying to maul my arm, but it'll be far more gently, carefully, and with as little tooth contact as he can manage.

His attempts at self-control are commendable at this stage of puppydom, but they are still off the mark. At least he's trying.


Now the family Westie growing up? Never needed any level of correction, really. She's a soft dog and has always been quiet and well-behaved. A firm "NO" was all that was ever needed, and even then only sparingly.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> Please elaborate, is it like an e-collar? Lol @ act of God correction.


An E collar is not an "act of God correction" and neither is a "bonker." Please, don't ever think that an E collar correction should be a "surprise" to the dog. A surprise in that the dog does not know the correction came from the handler.

Hands should be for praising and petting only. I never use my hands for hitting, alpha rolling, or using my fingers like a "claw" to grab a dog's neck. I've never felt the need to do that and I handle some pretty strong, tough dogs.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Crunch Hardtack said:


> I smacked my second boy Amos a few times out of frustration when he was younger and I was _*A LOT*_ younger. Never felt right.
> 
> There were times when Amos as an adult was with his litter mate or other larger dogs and just horsing around as dogs do, and I wanted him to come. He would give me that cocky, defiant and rebellious GSD look, prance in front of me, and then proceed to fool around with his buds. I figured if he wasn't going to listen to me as a human, then he must listen to me as his pack leader.
> 
> In such cases when he just wouldn't obey (Which were few and far between: most wonderful, loving and obedient dog.), I would grab and lift him off his paws, body slam him to the ground (did I mention I was much younger then?), and then give him a good firm correction bite on the middle of his muzzle; just enough to pique his attention. In dog terms, he knew I meant business. The look on his face was priceless! Needless to say, I only had to resort to muzzle biting 3-4 times, when he learned that when I gave a command I meant it. Been faithful and responsive since.


I sincerely hope you never do this again to your dog. No, serious experienced trainer that I know does alpha rolls or bites their dog on the muzzle. Alpha rolls went the way of the DODO about 20 years ago. For any novice reading this, please realize that this is a really bad thing to do. Done with the wrong dog this will get you bitten in the face, potentially severely. If you have a wonderful, loving dog then this is absolutely the wrong thing to do. If you have a strong dog you will be in a world of hurt. 

You are not a dog and your dog is not a person. In "dog terms" your dog had no idea what you were doing............... You are not a litter mate, nor are you a dog so please don't act like one. 

Crunch, I realize that you said you were younger when you did this. I hope your dog training has improved and matured as you have aged?

I've only read a handful of posts on this thread, but there is some really bad advice about correcting dogs. Please take some of the posts with a grain of salt...."Booker" more like "_Bonkers_"


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> An E collar is not an "act of God correction" and neither is a "bonker." Please, don't ever think that an E collar correction should be a "surprise" to the dog. A surprise in that the dog does not know the correction came from the handler.
> 
> Hands should be for praising and petting only. I never use my hands for hitting, alpha rolling, or using my fingers like a "claw" to grab a dog's neck. I've never felt the need to do that and I handle some pretty strong, tough dogs.


 Naw ... I know this game and ... I'm not Lou.  

I don't use a E-Collar, but I do understand "an act of God Correction!" I documented it on "here" ... yeah that was fun. 

If a dog is doing a behaviour that is "unacceptable to an owner ..." or that can get them "killed"... you need to stop it, "NOW and COLD!" End of story, a high level "E Collar" correction or a "Bonker" can do that. Act of God Correction ... is not an "E-Collar" at "Working level."

A "Bonker" is no different in principle or concept than a "Throw Chain" for "delivering an aversive" but unlike an "E-Collar" a "Bonker" ... cost nothing. 

Back to basics "KMODT" (Throw Chain ... Act of God ie where did that come from???) anyone that cares ... can talk to "Gary Wilkes" themselves or go to his "Click and Treat" site, it's not my job to defend "Experts" they can do that for themselves. 

He's on FB, but you know as I said be respectful ... he does not bear fools well.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> A "Bonker" serves a "similar purpose" but no "owner association" ... but it can also work at a distance to stop a behaviour! Think "Cat Chasing or Counter Surfing" or "Pack fights" (which ... is where it came from!) Act of "God Correction" ie where did that come from???


The only bonker I know about is Gellman's rolled towel, which would be useless for any of the things you mentioned. A dog knows who is throwing things at them. It's about as useful as a shake can.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Please elaborate, is it like an e-collar? Lol @ act of God correction.


Aww ... I'm done, but you know ... do a search chip18,geramnshepardforum and Bonker and you'll find the links or you know just "PM" me.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Chip, I don't need to go to FB to ask dog training questions. I'm not a big fan of the KMODT, some of it is good, a lot of it is antiquated, IMHO. You give a lot of advice based on what you have read on the internet or watched on youtube. The "bonker" doesn't work with all dogs. I know plenty of dogs that will simply shred the towel and wait for the next one to be tossed. 

You are a lot like "Lou." Lou said a lot of stuff that also made no sense to me or other people that actually work dogs on a daily basis. Unlike "Lou" I can teach a dog to sit with out an E collar or a leash correction. I also understand the value of praise and reward and the role it plays in dog training. Many people miss that point and just don't get it. When you start to really understand how to work and train many different dogs in a variety of settings you will see the issues I have with his methods; and I use an E collar. He's not here to defend himself so it is a little unfair to bring him up. 

"Jeff Gellman", ehhhh he's ok I guess, rolled towels are not dog training.

I don't think long posts or a lot of posts make one member more knowledgeable than others. Just like in dog training, it's quality over quantity.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Nope ... don't shoot the messenger! I am not the originator of the (Bonker) technique (although to be "accurate" ... I do say use a rolled up pair of socks instead of going to the trouble to roll up a towel and bind it with rubber bands.  )
> 
> But no, the originator of the "Bonker" is "Gary Wilkes!" And whether or not he knows it ... it is also simply a "variation" on the "KMODT" ... throw chain technique!
> 
> ...


No I don't have a question for Mr.Wilkes.Most of the guys you recommend IMO are ridiculous for promoting themselves as "Freaking Experts".My concern is the same as Slamdunk's.New owners stumbling upon some very bad and potentially dangerous advice.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Chip, I don't need to go to FB to ask dog training questions. I'm not a big fan of the KMODT, some of it is good, a lot of it is antiquated, IMHO. You give a lot of advice based on what you have read on the internet or watched on youtube. The "bonker" doesn't work with all dogs. I know plenty of dogs that will simply shred the towel and wait for the next one to be tossed.
> 
> You are a lot like "Lou." Lou said a lot of stuff that also made no sense to me or other people that actually work dogs on a daily basis. Unlike "Lou" I can teach a dog to sit with out an E collar or a leash correction. I also understand the value of praise and reward and the role it plays in dog training. Many people miss that point and just don't get it. When you start to really understand how to work and train many different dogs in a variety of settings you will see the issues I have with his methods; and I use an E collar. He's not here to defend himself so it is a little unfair to bring him up.
> 
> ...


Aww well thanks ... I'll take that as a complement.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> No I don't have a question for Mr.Wilkes.Most of the guys you recommend IMO are ridiculous for promoting themselves as "Freaking Experts".My concern is the same as Slamdunk's.New owners stumbling upon some very bad and potentially dangerous advice.


No issue ... I'm good with low numbers.


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i'm so lost don't know what bonkers or rolled towels means. can i get a link to something?


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Well I would more than likely miss the dog more than I hit the dog. 
This does remind me of when my two oldest boys were in pee wee football. I would sit out there and shoot the breeze with the rest of the dads during practice. My daughter would be with my wife across the way doing the pee wee cheerleader practices. My youngest son would have been about 4 at the time. Well one evening my wife texts me and tells me she's sending the 4 yr old over to me because he was being ridiculous. I said OK no big deal. We normally would throw the football back and forth while I was talking. So I see him coming across the grass between the two schools. Probably 175 yards. I walk to the truck grab the football and someone says something so I turn to answer them. Now the boy has to cross a road/drive that commutes between middle and high school. I look back and he seen me with football and starts running instead of stopping to wait for cars. So he is running towards me about 20 feet from the road cars are coming I yell stop! He keeps coming so I draw back and toss the football. Perfect throw hits him dead in the face knocks him to the ground. Car drives by I head over, he gets up and instantly starts to book it back to momma to tell on me for hitting him in the face with a football. I was the mean guy at the cheerleader practice with the mommas. I was Joe Montana over at the football practice with all the guys. Either way the boy didn't get ran over.


----------



## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Well, Chip, FWIW I once used a bonker-like technique. I am assuming the bonker would best be used as a "behavior interrupter"? Not likely to break up a serious dog fight or anything of that nature, but one day I pull in the driveway in my truck. Hans is in the backseat and I see him staring at something. I hadn't seen the cat come running up and Hans is NOT allowed to look at cats. 
Looking at cats leads to STARING at cats, which leads to whining, moaning (yes, moaning  ) and shaking, which can progress to lunging when outside the truck. I can't reach him to correct him, but I grab a half empty bottle of water (or half full if you're an optimist) and I fling it at him pretty hard. It didn't actually hit him, but it hit in front of his chest, bounced off the seat and...broke the spell.  
He turned totally around and laid down. Mission accomplished.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Well I would more than likely miss the dog more than I hit the dog.
> This does remind me of when my two oldest boys were in pee wee football. I would sit out there and shoot the breeze with the rest of the dads during practice. My daughter would be with my wife across the way doing the pee wee cheerleader practices. My youngest son would have been about 4 at the time. Well one evening my wife texts me and tells me she's sending the 4 yr old over to me because he was being ridiculous. I said OK no big deal. We normally would throw the football back and forth while I was talking. So I see him coming across the grass between the two schools. Probably 175 yards. I walk to the truck grab the football and someone says something so I turn to answer them. Now the boy has to cross a road/drive that commutes between middle and high school. I look back and he seen me with football and starts running instead of stopping to wait for cars. So he is running towards me about 20 feet from the road cars are coming I yell stop! He keeps coming so I draw back and toss the football. Perfect throw hits him dead in the face knocks him to the ground. Car drives by I head over, he gets up and instantly starts to book it back to momma to tell on me for hitting him in the face with a football. I was the mean guy at the cheerleader practice with the mommas. I was Joe Montana over at the football practice with all the guys. Either way the boy didn't get ran over.


LOL ... "Bonker!"


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MyHans-someBoy said:


> Well, Chip, FWIW I once used a bonker-like technique. I am assuming the bonker would best be used as a "behavior interrupter"? Not likely to break up a serious dog fight or anything of that nature, but one day I pull in the driveway in my truck. Hans is in the backseat and I see him staring at something. I hadn't seen the cat come running up and Hans is NOT allowed to look at cats.
> Looking at cats leads to STARING at cats, which leads to whining, moaning (yes, moaning  ) and shaking, which can progress to lunging when outside the truck. I can't reach him to correct him, but I grab a half empty bottle of water (or half full if you're an optimist) and I fling it at him pretty hard. It didn't actually hit him, but it hit in front of his chest, bounced off the seat and...broke the spell.
> He turned totally around and laid down. Mission accomplished.


LOL ... I'll simply say ... yes!!! Tool at hand it's the "Concept!"

Now perhaps if you had done laundry and happened to have a pair of rolled up socks at hand ... you'd have used that.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

scarfish said:


> i'm so lost don't know what bonkers or rolled towels means. can i get a link to something?


You really don't want to know. But if you insist, Google Jeff Gellman and bonkers.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> You really don't want to know. But if you insist, Google Jeff Gellman and bonkers.


Nope "Jeff" is a second hand source ... I guess I'm third??? "Gary Wilkes" is the originator (well if you don't count William Kohler) and the source for stopping "fighting" pack members with a "Bonker" it is in the "book" he posted online. 

I read it, so others don't have to but for those with time to kill ... now you know.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

I prefer telling my dog what I want them to do instead of telling them what I don't want them to do as one option is motivational and rewarding and the other does not define anything and can cause a myriad of reactions depending on the personality, often negative. "No" is not in my vocabulary when training dogs. People can do what works for them and their situation. I respect differences of opinions, views, and methods and as long as people are happy with the results that's all I care about.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I prefer telling my dog what I want them to do instead of telling them what I don't want them to do as one option is motivational and rewarding and the other does not define anything and can cause a myriad of reactions depending on the personality, often negative. "No" is not in my vocabulary when training dogs. People can do what works for them and their situation. I respect differences of opinions, views, and methods and as long as people are happy with the results that's all I care about.


LOL most likely in my pre "Boxer" days I'd have agreed with you! 

But ... "Boxers" you know ... "No" once properly taught ... is an actual command! And it means "Stop doing what you are doing and don't do it again!"

I got lots of practice with "Struddell." She was always doing something new different and stupid! She heard "NO" so often ... that I feared at one point, she was going to think it was her name??? But it paid off in the long run.

Off leash in the "Desert" at distance ... I taught her to chase "Rabbits" to the North (Mountains) and not (South) Hwy ... with the use of the word "NO!" 

If the rabbit broke South ... it was "NO" if the rabbit broke "North" it was "OK." Worked out fine ... no "E-Collar" needed. 

Open desert here and I watched her like a hawk! So whatever she saw ... I saw and she would "alert" and "wait" for the all clear to proceed and then ... it was "game on!"


----------



## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Chip18 said:


> LOL most likely in my pre "Boxer" days I'd have agreed with you!
> 
> But ... "Boxers" you know ... "No" once properly taught ... is an actual command! And it means "Stop doing what you are doing and don't do it again!"
> 
> ...


You have to have a sense of humor period with a Boxer, lol. I train a lot of them and still never use the word "no", I like to keep things as simple as possible for my clients as they are already dealing with enough stress and frustration at the point they come to see me, so I maximize learning and achieving goals with as little of commands as possible for pet owners. When someone asks me how to get a dog off a piece of furniture then I tell them directionals like over and back and redirect to what you want them to do, as that goes back to being motivational and rewarding instead of getting frustrated and saying no 50 times a day every day. Glad you found a system that worked for you and Struddell (great name, lol).


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Do you seriously think Lou can't teach a dog without an e collar? If he wasn't banned he'd rip you a new one line by line in pink text. 

He uses the e collar because it is a very useful tool and someone would have to be uninformed or have force free ideological reasons to not use it.

The bonker is stupid. I know about it and I don't use it because it's not going to accomplish anything you can't do with hands a leash or e collar and markers. I've seen Gary train. He knows theory well but from a practical standpoint he is very weak.

The reason I get away with the hand corrections is proper use of markers and other techniques to teach a dog how to view and act when being corrected. It avoids the hand shyness any issues with running away etc. Clients here have to go through a 2 hour lecture and then days of handler sessions to learn how to do it correctly and ethically before we release the board and train dogs to them. It is taken very seriously.

Chances are many of you that correct your dogs physically are doing it in a way I would consider wrong, unclear, or unethical.

People always want to brag about handling strong dogs. Strong dogs are easy. The ones to brag about are the weak ones. Appying what you do to dogs afraid of their own shadows for no reason and in the end you build them up.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Throw chains have been around longer than Gary Wilkes has been training dogs. The original throw chains used were "rocks" and this predates Kohler and Wilkes by quite some time.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Bailiff, regarding Lou:

_*Do you seriously think Lou can't teach a dog without an e collar? If he wasn't banned he'd rip you a new one line by line in pink text. 

He uses the e collar because it is a very useful tool and someone would have to be uninformed or have force free ideological reasons to not use it.*_

I have no idea what he can actually do. I heard a lot of talking from him, I read his website and was generally not impressed. I'm honestly not sure how well he can train a dog at all. His methods are outdated and antiquated. He actually states on his website to teach a dog to sit you yank up on the collar and stim, and give no praise. He advises novices NOT to praise when the dog is correct. That is all I needed to see to know all that I needed to know about how effective his training is. I've spoken to long term LA K-9 guys and got all the info I needed to confirm what I thought. 

Any one can hammer a dog into submission, that doesn't take much skill or technique. Any one can use force to train behaviors with an average dog and E collar stim is force. That doesn't make one a good or skilled trainer. I prefer to get a highly trained happy, motivated working dog. A dog that learns faster and is more reliable. As far as Lou ripping me a new one in pink text, I could care less. I have no desire to argue with a relentless individual that would dissect every line of a post, often changing it's context and meaning. He had nothing to offer me and responding was a complete waste of my time. One thing I have learned is that you can never win an internet argument. 

I use an E collar every day and I have for years. I understand how to use it and I am against how some folks advocate novices to use E collars. I use it primarily as a finesse tool and not to teach behaviors. 

Strong dogs are not easy for most pet owners, neither are weak nervy dogs. However, some of the advice given here will get someone hurt with a strong dog. I train pet dogs as well as working dogs and different methods are used for different dogs. I've rehabilitated plenty of weak, fearful and nervy dogs and "Bonkers" was not a tool I ever used. Building up a weak dog is very rewarding, and not that hard either with the right thoughtful approach, patience and finding what works for the dog.


----------



## Crunch Hardtack (Dec 22, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> I sincerely hope you never do this again to your dog. No, serious experienced trainer that I know does alpha rolls or bites their dog on the muzzle. Alpha rolls went the way of the DODO about 20 years ago. For any novice reading this, please realize that this is a really bad thing to do. Done with the wrong dog this will get you bitten in the face, potentially severely. If you have a wonderful, loving dog then this is absolutely the wrong thing to do. If you have a strong dog you will be in a world of hurt.
> 
> You are not a dog and your dog is not a person. In "dog terms" your dog had no idea what you were doing............... You are not a litter mate, nor are you a dog so please don't act like one.
> 
> ...


No, it's something I wouldn't do now as a 65 year man that is hopefully imbued with better sense. I was in my mid 20s at the time and full of piss and vinegar; I knew my dog with his character and temperament, and that was what worked for me at that time. Yes, pack dominance 40 years ago was an up and coming thing and was a form of discipline that did have a modicum of success and therefor some merit at the time or it wouldn't have been so popular. Not to make excuses for it; it was something that was utilized as a tool along with other tools at the time.

Heck, even if I wanted to resort to this type of correction today I couldn't pick up a 70-85 lb. dog anymore! A visit to my chiro and some PT would be one of the consequences.

I do appreciate the advice and corrections this forum dispenses; that is why I come here.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Crunch Hardtack said:


> No, it's something I wouldn't do now as a 65 year man that is hopefully imbued with better sense. I was in my mid 20s at the time and full of piss and vinegar; I knew my dog with his character and temperament, and that was what worked for me at that time. Yes, pack dominance 40 years ago was an up and coming thing and was a form of discipline that did have a modicum of success and therefor some merit at the time or it wouldn't have been so popular. Not to make excuses for it; it was something that was utilized as a tool along with other tools at the time.
> 
> Heck, even if I wanted to resort to this type of correction today I couldn't pick up a 70-85 lb. dog anymore! A visit to my chiro and some PT would be one of the consequences.
> 
> I do appreciate the advice and corrections this forum dispenses; that is why I come here.



I'm with you, I did stuff with dogs like alpha rolls back in the late 80's and 90's. We all learn and change when better techniques come along. I know that I do things a lot differently than I did even 10 years ago.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> Bailiff, regarding Lou:
> 
> _*Do you seriously think Lou can't teach a dog without an e collar? If he wasn't banned he'd rip you a new one line by line in pink text.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't trust another dog trainer to talk to me about how another dog trainer trains unless it was someone I respected a lot. Dog trainers eat each other.

I don't agree with emotionally neutral either but it can be done that way if tactful enough "usually." It is one of my bigger criticisms of KMODT. I will say this though, with certain dogs who are "just not on board with you" and also not toy or food motivated enough it can be useful to not praise after successes because you can actually condition praise to be demotivational. Usually given a little bit of time when they warm up and start to appreciate the relationship more you can start lavishing the praise on then without risking damaging the value of it. This is generally an exception rather than the rule. 

I appreciate not giving advice over internet on dog training for the same reasons you do. Generally when I comment it's science based or in defense of a method but not on how to do it right. That kind of thing requires in person coaching usually.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Bailiff,

Knowing when to praise and how much to praise is critically important to dog training. Just as if not more important as knowing when to use compulsion and how much to use. As you know timing is critical in both correcting and praising. Not speaking to you, because I know you know. I find more people worry about correcting a dog's behavior than training and rewarding the proper behavior in the first place. Which is so much easier. 

*I wouldn't trust another dog trainer to talk to me about how another dog trainer trains unless it was someone I respected a lot. Dog trainers eat each othe*r. 

Actually, it came from an active trainer that works high level dogs every day. He is one of the most respected trainers that I know. His methods and techniques work in the real world. I've seen the dogs and handlers he has trained, I've seen him select dogs, work dogs, decoy and he is among the best. He is a straight forward, honest, no BS guy that has been training and working dogs for a long time. I trust his information and he is on the level, he is one of my "go to" guys when I have questions or need dog advice.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why would I use my hands when my voice is so effective -- much more effective than smacking a dog. Because, dogs can take pain. You'd have to abuse a dog to get them to avoid a behavior by physical punishment. If you just need to communicate that what he did was not ok, you can do that with a deep, stern, tone of voice: "Eh! My Garbage. Go lay down." The dog knows you are not happy, and exactly why you aren't happy. 

Again, the more experience you have with dogs, the less necessity you have for any punishment. Usually those things we punish for, are things we should have managed better in the first place. My dogs know the difference between MINE, and YOURS. If they are going after something, I tell them, even before they touch it most times, "that's mine." And that is usually enough.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

selzer said:


> I tell them, even before they touch it most times, "that's mine." And that is usually enough.


I'm curious.........tone varies...highs and lows in pitch...difference in volume...etc..... a pup might connect the dots based on previous experiences.....but words are just words. How do you teach a pup " that's mine" has significance just by saying the words?

SuperG


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

A while back I added marker training to my dogs program. Within just a couple sessions they all three know that when I say "yes" that they done correct and that gets them reward. I also added no to my training. If I say sit and the dog just stands there I say "no" and repeat the command. This tells the dog that they haven't done what I have asked or that I don't approve what they are doing. It also breaks up commands so the dog doesn't start to think that "sit - sit- siiit is the actual command instead of just" sit". So initially I say sit dog stands I say "no" dog says OK this must not be what he wanted I say sit dog sits "yes" treat. Worked out great. But they have associated "no" to a degree that no matter what they're doing if I say "no" they stop. No questions just stop. Dogs can learn words through clear consistent use of single words.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

cdwoodcox said:


> Dogs can learn words through clear consistent use of single words.


Conditioned via your clicker and reward ...giving meaning to the word yes.....

Verbal markers are great and no doubt aid in other trained behaviors making them easier to accomplish......but....unless the dog has been conditioned to understand what "that's mine" means...absent of any direction by the human.....they are just words.....that is why I am curious how the words gained significance in the situation cited earlier.

If I used a " NO!....that's mine" in a leave it situation.....chances are...as you said ...the "no" will stop them......if I continue to use the same " no...that's mine"...eventually "that's mine " will get the message across....or just "mine" ..or a simple 'eh".

SuperG


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> You have to have a sense of humor period with a Boxer, lol. I train a lot of them and still never use the word "no"


LOL indeed ... clearly you understand "Boxers!" No problem ... still I trained "Struddell" off leash in the desert at distance to chase "Rabbit's" to the "North instead of South" with the use of the word "NO!" So you know no tools required ... for me "No,No,No,No sigh No,No,No and bare in mind it was always something new different and stupid! But ...it paid off in the long run ... Good enough for me. 

I doubt others could do likewise?? But you know ... there is always that guy.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Right. 
I never use "no" in a different tone or yelling. Just a calm "no" does the trick. If it's something that needs an "oh crap" moment (cat chasing etc...) then a loud "eh" usually works.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SuperG said:


> I'm curious.........tone varies...highs and lows in pitch...difference in volume...etc..... a pup might connect the dots based on previous experiences.....but words are just words. How do you teach a pup " that's mine" has significance just by saying the words?
> 
> SuperG


When you first bring your dog home, and he starts playing with a toy, you say, "Good boy, that is yours." When he starts to take something he should not have, you say, "Eh-eh, That's Mine." Then you give him the toy and say, "Yours." 

Dogs are incredibly smart. 

They thrive on consistency. Giving them a smack will not kill him. But it can make the relationship tougher. For one thing, smacking the dog portrays you as a weak leader in dog-think. A confident leader walks around like his poopie doesn't stink and everyone just accepts him as the leader. He controls others with his eyeballs. Weaker leaders vocalize, growl, snap, snarl, etc. And the weakest leaders physically fight for leadership. 

A strong leader doesn't need to fight with a dog. In fact, that is the ONLY reason I am not dead set against prongs and e-collars. If a person is going to otherwise fight with the dog, then the correction collars are better, because fighting with the dog is a recipe for disaster. Posturing, little slaps that don't hurt the dog at all -- that is just showing you lack leadership. Yes, a dog with decent nerve will be fine with that leadership, but a strong dog might just call your bluff, and a weak dog might feel even more nervous with you because she cannot trust your leadership. 

You would be better off ignoring the dog, and walking around like your poop did not stink. But I prefer to tell a dog, Eh, Mine. And then show the dog what they can have. It works for me. But don't reward the dog for doing it. Always say, That's MINE, Eh! And then say, "go get your toy, this is yours." emphasis on Mine, and Yours. They learn quick.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Crunch Hardtack said:


> No, it's something I wouldn't do now as a 65 year man that is hopefully imbued with better sense. I was in my mid 20s at the time and full of piss and vinegar; I knew my dog with his character and temperament, and that was what worked for me at that time. Yes, pack dominance 40 years ago was an up and coming thing and was a form of discipline that did have a modicum of success and therefor some merit at the time or it wouldn't have been so popular. Not to make excuses for it; it was something that was utilized as a tool along with other tools at the time.
> 
> Heck, even if I wanted to resort to this type of correction today I couldn't pick up a 70-85 lb. dog anymore! A visit to my chiro and some PT would be one of the consequences.
> 
> I do appreciate the advice and corrections this forum dispenses; that is why I come here.


LOL well I never did you do describe but I still carry baggage from when I was young and invincible! These days ... I'm much older and I still "aggressively defend my dogs!! Most likely I should follow some of my own advise and at least carry "Bear Spray or a Walking Stick" to defend my dogs?? Sooner or later ... I'm gonna get hurt but you know ...whatever. 

65 lbs is an easily scoopable weight for the most part for just about everyone??? 70 to 85 lbs get's difficult to lift as GSD are "long dogs??" As it happens "Rocky" is a "Wobbler dog" and 1112 lbs so he wears a full mobility harness with a front and back harness/handles that you can grab! 

When that stupid Lapso came after him I grabbed both handles and spun him out of the way so fast ... that even I was stunned! 

That Lapso was left facing me in an instant and yeah that was not the plan?? Aww well we learn as we grow older.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Right.
> I never use "no" in a different tone or yelling. Just a calm "no" does the trick. If it's something that needs an "oh crap" moment (cat chasing etc...) then a loud "eh" usually works.


LOL per my most recent "Pit" off the street "Rescue" ... "Good Luck with that!"


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The bonker is stupid. I know about it and I don't use it because it's not going to accomplish anything you can't do with hands a leash or e collar and markers. I've seen Gary train. He knows theory well but from a practical standpoint he is very weak.


LOL well ... I'm not going to disagree with you!! Still ... as you know the only thing three dog trainers will agree on ... is that one of them is wrong.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL per my most recent "Pit" off the street "Rescue" ... "Good Luck with that!"


Dont get me wrong. No and eh aren't my only form of corrections. I am prepared to use whatever necessary to discipline a dog. But for OB on dogs that I have raised from pups that is all I need at present time. The two oldest are trained in e-collar recall, all three respond well to leash pressure or leash corrections. I try and not be too one dimensional. Different degrees of behaviors call for different degrees of correction.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> When you first bring your dog home, and he starts playing with a toy, you say, "Good boy, that is yours." When he starts to take something he should not have, you say, "Eh-eh, That's Mine." Then you give him the toy and say, "Yours."
> 
> Dogs are incredibly smart.
> 
> ...


I fully agree with you that "fighting with the dog is ... not the way to go.

I don't necessarily agree that an "E-Collar" or a "Prong Collar" are the source of all evil?? I have no issues with those tools but the "why" do "some" owners feel the need to use them is the more important question?? 

The "Magic Bullet" concept as a "solution" to all my problems?? That is the issue ... if I use this particular "tool" all my problems will be solved! That ... is just not where it's at! You helped me better understand the "issues" I was having with my "SLL" thread. 

It seemed ... simple enough to me ... but you know ... people just weren't getting it?? So I switched it to "concept" of "walking your dog" use a proper tool of choice and go with that.
That


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Dont get me wrong. No and eh aren't my only form of corrections. I am prepared to use whatever necessary to discipline a dog. But for OB on dogs that I have raised from pups that is all I need at present time. The two oldest are trained in e-collar recall, all three respond well to leash pressure or leash corrections. I try and not be too one dimensional. Different degrees of behaviors call for different degrees of correction.


Oh I fully agree with you and with dogs you've raised from puppies ... no big deal!

But you know ... what happens when you bring in a "dog off the street??" What I did before with my other dogs ... did not mean "Crap" to her! 

If your "flexible" you adapt, if your not ... put that dog in a bedroom and call "Animal Control" problem solved! That's not how I roll ... the one most important lesson I learned from my first experiance with my first OS WL GSD is *"adjust your thinking and your approach"* or you will get seriously "messed up!!" It took five pack fights and stitches for me to get that but you know ... finally ... as they say "Message Received!"* Work with the dog in front of you! *

That's what I learned from "Rocky!" And I so wanted to "keep" that dog! Even with her "former" Cat issues, which for me ...were no big big deal and I head on here ... that I could not do what I did. 

But you know for me ... No big deal ... but ... all the "crap" I thought would work ... I had no time for, I had a serious issue "serious prey drive" and ... that came first! But we got it done and it worked out fine. 

But hey if people aren't willing to go outside of there comfort zone to help a dog in need ... espically if it happens to be a "Pit" don't worry about it ... call A/C and call it a day.


----------



## MT523 (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm no expert but pretty surprised at the comments in here and don't really know where to start. I know this is a Cane Corso breeder but they say "never hit your dog" somewhere in here CastleGuard Cane Corso - Breeder with Puppies in CO. Maybe it's cause I've seen a couple acquaintances hit their dogs(and felt so bad for them) but I'm just so against it. I've even had 2 coworkers tell me I need to hit my dog when she was 5 months old. I know at that age I accidentally bumped her nose and she bit me pretty hard.

If I'm correcting for chewing on something I walk over, snap my finger and say "ehh" or "no" and 95% of the time she will walk away to grab a toy. If she doesn't I will guide her away from it with her collar, no yanking but literally guiding her a few inches away and she will leave it alone. 

If she is biting I tell her to grab a toy. If that doesn't "Your German Shepherd Puppy" book says to look straight in their eye and give a firm "no". If that doesn't work I will grab a toy and run through a bunch of commands/tricks (that always works). If by some chance that doesn't work the book also says to stand up/make yourself look big, look in her eyes, and don't say anything...this has also worked... 

Other than a dog fight I really can't think of an instances to consider hitting my dog. If anything, I will guide her to her crate and leave her alone for awhile if something is that bad... Sorry for any typos.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MT523 said:


> I'm no expert but pretty surprised at the comments in here and don't really know where to start. I know this is a Cane Corso breeder but they say "never hit your dog" somewhere in here CastleGuard Cane Corso - Breeder with Puppies in CO. Maybe it's cause I've seen a couple acquaintances hit their dogs(and felt so bad for them) but I'm just so against it. I've even had 2 coworkers tell me I need to hit my dog when she was 5 months old. I know at that age I accidentally bumped her nose and she bit me pretty hard.
> 
> If I'm correcting for chewing on something I walk over, snap my finger and say "ehh" or "no" and 95% of the time she will walk away to grab a toy. If she doesn't I will guide her away from it with her collar, no yanking but literally guiding her a few inches away and she will leave it alone.
> 
> ...


What does your German Shepherd Puppy book tell you about teaching loose leash? Or heel?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The bonker is stupid. I know about it and I don't use it because it's not going to accomplish anything you can't do with hands a leash or e collar and markers. I've seen Gary train. He knows theory well but from a practical standpoint he is very weak.


Well of course most likely you would thing a "Bonker is Stupid??" But on the other hand "you don't have the issues that JQP does??

What what "you do if you had a "Counter Surfing Dog??" A "Bonker" is simple direct and to the point.

If I had a counter surfing dog issue?? I would lay a trap ... sit in my "easy chair" with a bundle of socks aka "Bonkers" and wait for the dog to go for it! And if they did ... I'd nail them with a pair of socks in the head! And I'd repeat as necessary! I'm not a pro but I think ... after a few applications ... they'd figure it out ... going up on that counter ... is not a good choice???

But you know ... I don't know??? Hopefully ... I can wrangle up another "Bully Stray" and maybe test it out???


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Well of course most likely you would thing a "Bonker is Stupid??" But on the other hand "you don't have the issues that JQP does??
> 
> What what "you do if you had a "Counter Surfing Dog??" A "Bonker" is simple direct and to the point.
> 
> ...


It does not work. I have a counter surfer. I can't even imagine throwing something at her. It sounds abusive. Throwing things at your dogs might work for you but it's not a recommended method of training.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It does not work. I have a counter surfer. I can't even imagine throwing something at her. It sounds abusive. Throwing things at your dogs might work for you but it's not a recommended method of training.


I wonder what it teaches a dog to have things thrown at it? What will it do if the paperboy comes and goes to throw a paper onto the porch? What if children were throwing toys on the lawn next door? Just what would the dog do?


----------



## MT523 (Jun 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What does your German Shepherd Puppy book tell you about teaching loose leash? Or heel?


Not necessary, this is about "smacking" a dog vs walking on a loose leash with a prong. Have you ever seen David Harris' videos? They use prong collars all the time...sometimes they don't. Again before I even took my puppy to puppy classes the trainer suggested to everyone that a prong at 6 months of age can be a good thing. I waited till after 8 months. But the book basically uses "watch me", take a step forward, treat and repeat.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Throw chains have been around longer than Gary Wilkes has been training dogs. The original throw chains used were "rocks" and this predates Kohler and Wilkes by quite some time.


No doubt ... but you know ... I don't care and neither do owners with problem dogs. "I" break it down to it's essence! And the function is "if I throw an "object" at my dog" he will stop "that" behaviour! 

Tin can full of rocks, a Throw Chain a "Bonker" or a "bundled pair of socks" for the record ... "that one is me" all the same thing to a dog?? Where did that come from??? If I don't do that "behaviour" "Act of God" correction ... does not happen??

Good enough for me ... dogs don't care about "history" AFAIK??? Or you know people can spend $300 bucks on an "E Collar" and accomplish the same thing I can do with a pair of socks.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MT523 said:


> Not necessary, this is about "smacking" a dog vs walking on a loose leash with a prong. Have you ever seen David Harris' videos? They use prong collars all the time...sometimes they don't. Again before I even took my puppy to puppy classes the trainer suggested to everyone that a prong at 6 months of age can be a good thing. I waited till after 8 months. But the book basically uses "watch me", take a step forward, treat and repeat.


Trainers almost always suggest prongs because they only have so much time to get results. But anyhow, you were the one that brought up your GSD Puppy book so I thought I would ask. Seems like they advise similar to the advice on the other thread.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I kinda wanna make a bonker to toss at Mako just to see what happens. LMAO

I mean a guy once punched him in the head a few times and that didn't deter him. And then a few weeks ago some cardboard boxes fell on him and he ended up going all crazy paper shredder on the offender. 

Soooo... yeah.


----------



## MT523 (Jun 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Trainers almost always suggest prongs because they only have so much time to get results. But anyhow, you were the one that brought up your GSD Puppy book so I thought I would ask. Seems like they advise similar to the advice on the other thread.


But the trainer suggested it when she was 11 weeks old before I even took her to the class at the orientation, not close to 6 months old. Even though I brought the book up, you have to ask about it in a thread about "smacking" dogs? I mean you could've sent me a pm, replied to the other thread..? The last reply I had in that thread was how much the prong has help in a weeks time.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> No doubt ... but you know ... I don't care and neither do owners with problem dogs. "I" break it down to it's essence! And the function is "if I throw an "object" at my dog" he will stop "that" behaviour!
> 
> Tin can full of rocks, a Throw Chain a "Bonker" or a "bundled pair of socks" for the record ... "that one is me" all the same thing to a dog?? Where did that come from??? If I don't do that "behaviour" "Act of God" correction ... does not happen??
> 
> Good enough for me ... dogs don't care about "history" AFAIK??? Or you know people can spend $300 bucks on an "E Collar" and accomplish the same thing I can do with a pair of socks.


D'jango would eat my socks. Then I'd run out of socks. I'd end up spending about $300 on pairs of socks. Or I can let them pass but will the wash really clean them? 
I can't see a dog in drive benefiting from a bonker or a smack. If anything it amps a dog up.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MT523 said:


> But the trainer suggested it when she was 11 weeks old before I even took her to the class at the orientation, not close to 6 months old. Even though I brought the book up, you have to ask about it in a thread about "smacking" dogs? I mean you could've sent me a pm, replied to the other thread..? The last reply I had in that thread was how much the prong has help in a weeks time.


You didn't bring up your German Shepherd Puppy book in the other thread. I did not know it existed.

You brought the book up in this thread. I don't know why you are making such a big deal out of a simple question. 

Why should I send a PM? I am not asking you for you social security number. I simply asked you what did your book say.


----------



## MT523 (Jun 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You didn't bring up your German Shepherd Puppy book in the other thread. I did not know it existed.
> 
> You brought the book up in this thread. I don't know why you are making such a big deal out of a simple question.
> 
> Why should I send a PM? I am not asking you for you social security number. I simply asked you what did your book say.


Well it's the internet, so hard to interpret things. However, after I post what I thought to be a fairly good reply on why you shouldn't hit your dog... What you replied sounded like you knew about the book and just wanted to call me out on the prong to be honest. But yeah it's a great book 300+ pages (no pictures) month by month up to 12 months on GSD puppies and what to expect. Even then, you still run into specific things that they don't touch on in the book.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MT523 said:


> Well it's the internet, so hard to interpret things. However, after I post what I thought to be a fairly good reply on why you shouldn't hit your dog... What you replied sounded like you knew about the book and just wanted to call me out on the prong to be honest. But yeah it's a great book 300+ pages (no pictures) month by month up to 12 months on GSD puppies and what to expect. Even then, you still run into specific things that they don't touch on in the book.


No, I never heard of that book.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> It does not work. I have a counter surfer. I can't even imagine throwing something at her. It sounds abusive. Throwing things at your dogs might work for you but it's not a recommended method of training.


Aww well you know ... subject to interpretation! 

Baillif deemed it stupid, and I know of a "Boxer" owner that just flat got it wrong! The dog thought it was a game??? > 

To quote "Gary Wilkes" ... "intolerable" if your dog thinks it's no big deal then you've screwed up! Just becasue I'd never done something does not mean it's of no value, cause you know ... maybe it's me??? 

So you know feel free to let your dog "counter surf" at will just understand that if she/he sucks up something "bad" it's about a $3500 to $4000 surgery too get whatever out! 

So yeah, I would/will smack a dog in the freaking head with a "sock" in a split sec to stop that from happening!! But hey that's just me ... and yeah most likely a few thousands others??

But I don't know ... cause "they" aren't here.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> D'jango would eat my socks. Then I'd run out of socks. I'd end up spending about $300 on pairs of socks. Or I can let them pass but will the wash really clean them?
> I can't see a dog in drive benefiting from a bunker or a smack. If anything it amps a dog up.


Aww well "Gary Wilkes" did much better than I when he first stumbled onto the "Bonker thing!" 

He was faced with two herder dogs getting ready to throw down and he had nothing to stop them???

He happen to see "throw pillows" on the couch and said screw it I'll use that! He hit one of the dogs and the dogs scattered away from each other ie ...."where the heck that did come from???" The rest is history. 

I on the other hand, when I saw my OS WL GSD 116 lbs challenging my 85 lbs (I don't freaking care) American Band Dawg! I chose the *"I freaking Dare You To try approach!!!"* That ... did not work out too well ... "Rocky took that Dare" I'm fast but he was faster!!!

In retrospect yeah I had no shortage of "throw pillows" available perhaps had I had chose that option ... I'd have not had "Five Fights" and landed up in the "ER" before getting my act together???

So yeah "Pros" notwithstanding I will "smack" the crap out of a dog with a freaking "Bonker" to stop a behaviour I find unacceptable. In a slipt freaking second!! If you get to that point ... you've already screwed up! 

I got "Schooled" by my first "WL GSD" but it won't happen again! As "Miss Sally" formerly cat chasing "Pit off the street" found out in 24 hours! Chasing my freaking cats ... is not a good option!!

I missed out on my chance to get a "free" American Band Dawg" but the year is young?? Maybe some "tool" in "Dayton" has a "Dogo Argentino" that they can't control??? 

If it shows up in my front yard that dog is mine!! I'll tell "Marilyn" to put the freaking phone down!!! If a dog can't handle getting hit with a freaking sock?? He's a "candy ass" I'll be happy to pass him on!


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I wonder what it teaches a dog to have things thrown at it?


It lets the dog know it can be corrected from a distance, in a much less accurate way to an ecollar. I call a stone to the rump an Irish e collar. Throwing a shaker or noisy object is to startle the dog. Dogs don't like things thrown at them and so may stop what ever they are doing you don't want them to do. 

Dogs also don't like to be smacked with intent and so why it can be used as punishment. 

Back on the subject of slapping, i feel it is very handy to keep the peace and let dogs know some things are totally forbidden and will lead to physical confrontation with me. 

Whats worse for a dog than to be threatened and beat by it's master. It will work to avoid that situation. It;s important for a dog to know, You are the boss and ignoring boss in serious situations is dangerous.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The stupid part is more in the fact that he has a dedicated rolled up towel when there's a million other at hand things you can do.

I can use hands on dogs because I know how to do it and avoid all the potential pitfalls. It isn't done willy nilly. It isn't as simple as you did this and this is my response. Clients that go home know the rules and the procedure that goes with it and more importantly the dog was trained how to view and act during those events.

There are a lot of potential things that can go bad for you if you don't know what you're doing.

You could damage your relationship with the dog.

You could accidentally teach the dog to run from you.

You could create a handshy dog

You might get your butt handed to you by your dog and once your dog learns violence against you works to relieve pressure, that is a whole can of worms to deal with.

So when someone says you should never hit your dog it's maybe because they tried didn't know what they were doing and one of the above started to occur.

You can correct this way if you know what you are doing. Hit all the right notes and you can take a dog anywhere no collars no leashes nothing and your relationship will be stronger than ever. Do it wrong and bad things happen.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> It lets the dog know it can be corrected from a distance, in a much less accurate way to an ecollar. I call a stone to the rump an Irish e collar. Throwing a shaker or noisy object is to startle the dog. Dogs don't like things thrown at them and so may stop what ever they are doing you don't want them to do.
> 
> Dogs also don't like to be smacked with intent and so why it can be used as punishment.
> 
> ...


My point was more stranger directed such as a paperboy throwing a newspaper in the dog's direction, a child raising his arm to throw a football seemingly in a dog's direction, etc. 

What does this teach a dog about a raised arm and how does the dog apply this to strangers?


----------



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

The only time I've ever absolutely needed hands instead of voice was when Cafall was going through his bratty teenage phase and got focused on a rabbit that had darted away. Had to physically haul his fuzzy butt down the street till he let the idea go. Efa is too soft and would never react well to 'smack the dog.'

That's not to say I don't use touch. If I need a dog to move or want to see some (paws, teeth, etc.) I do communicate with touch and vocal commands.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I wonder what it teaches a dog to have things thrown at it? What will it do if the paperboy comes and goes to throw a paper onto the porch? What if children were throwing toys on the lawn next door? Just what would the dog do?


It's old and outdated.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well you know ... subject to interpretation!
> 
> Baillif deemed it stupid, and I know of a "Boxer" owner that just flat got it wrong! The dog thought it was a game??? >
> 
> ...


Chip, I don't even know what to say in reponse because I see you aren't interested. You are writing off some of the best trainers you will ever meet right here. If you want to throw socks, then you will. Most of us choose to try things that work.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> some of the best trainers you will ever meet right here.


This is why I like this forum. Sure there are multiple personality and style of trainers on here. But there is some really fricken good information on here. I have taken ideas from all styles of trainers and came up with what I feel is a pretty good base for whatever my dogs and myself want to do. It is nice to have someone that can watch you live or in person to critique your timing, etc... But this forum has almost all the info a person needs to get a really good OB foundation, drive building, problem shooting. You just have to be able to take criticism sometimes. And weed through the sometimes bad advice.


----------



## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

I think MAWL brings up a good point about what a raised arm could teach a dog... I think if one constantly used throwing objects at the dog to correct behavior that it *could* cause the dog to think a raised arm should make him/her cringe or duck, expecting to get hit. I think it depends on the dog to an extent. 
I think I should clarify something from my previous post from when I used throwing a water bottle towards my dog to snap him out of the cat staring trance. I have had Hans for 4 years. In those 4 years, I can only think of that one time that I threw an object towards him to interrupt a behavior. I really think if I used that kind of thing frequently that he would totally ignore it. It worked that time because it was something new. I can't say my first inclination is to pick something up and throw it at or towards him to correct him. I have accidentally popped him hard in the snout during a rowdy game of tug and he never even paused or blinked, so I can't imagine throwing something hard at him expecting it to correct a behavior actually working for very long at all.
Back to what I think Scarfish intended as the subject of the thread-smacking a dog. The first trainer I took Hans to when I first adopted him, taught something that I had never even considered in training a dog and that was the hard open handed smack under the chin. I remember posting about it way back when I first got him because it ran counter to everything I had been taught in life about hitting another living being-human or canine.
I also remember members on this forum warning me that using my hands as a means of correction with a strange (new to me) dog could get me bitten or worse-and they were giving good advice. I went through a period of time with Hans where, looking back, I was rougher than I needed to be.While I think the first trainer got me started on a bad path of using my hands to correct, I take responsibility for not really looking beyond that mind set and thinking things through a little better. Is it still a possible tool in the training tool box? It could be depending on the dog and the circumstances, but it is not my immediate or regular method of correction now. It took some more good advice by certain forum members as well as some self-analyzing to realize I could get my point across to Hans using a variety of means of correction-as long as it was consistent, clear and well timed.
Ironically, the only kind of correction that about got me bitten was a prong collar correction. I only avoided it because I had seen him go up the leash with two different trainers after prong corrections and got out of the way-barely. 
FWIW, I don't think a light smack on the butt is necessarily a bad thing and while I don't want to turn this into a child spanking thread, I think most of us have observed kids who are spanked for every little thing until, eventually they just laugh and go on with whatever they are doing. I think used too often, a butt smack to a dog can get like that.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My point was more stranger directed such as a paperboy throwing a newspaper in the dog's direction, a child raising his arm to throw a football seemingly in a dog's direction, etc.
> 
> What does this teach a dog about a raised arm and how does the dog apply this to strangers?


If the dog does not see the act of the object being thrown, can it still get this negative association? Assuming the dog in the bonker example was oblivious before being hit with the object, would it be able to create a picture of what just took place? or Does it depend on the dog, the context and its previous experiences?

My dogs know objects being thrown most often means "fun or game on" whether they see it coming or not. I threw a couple snowballs down from my roof the other night, they didn't see me do this, but instantly thought who hoo fun!!! and came running into view looking for more. Had I accidently hit one of them there would have been no difference in their reaction as this has happened on occasion, they still viewed it as fun. 

That said, the bonker method probably wouldn't work for us, but perhaps other dogs with different experiences it might be possible.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Oh I fully agree with you and with dogs you've raised from puppies ... no big deal!
> 
> But you know ... what happens when you bring in a "dog off the street??" What I did before with my other dogs ... did not mean "Crap" to her!


I have gotten pups back, some as old as 18 months, and I have gotten in a dog at over 3 years. I took off the prong collars and handled these dogs the same as I handle pups I raise. 

Personally, I think it would be all the more important NOT to strike a dog that you have recently brought into your home as a rescue or rehome. Being more mature and possibly less forgiving than a puppy, these dogs take a little longer to warm up, and patient, consistent leadership will produce the results you want. Dogs do not need to be clobbered, even if that was the main mode of communicating the dog did the wrong thing in the past. Think of a dog as a clean sheet. They aren't completely, but a dog is more willing to treat you as a different human, than we are to treat dogs as different dogs. We had to do thus to dog A, so dog B, C, and D will also be treated thus. We have to work with the dog that is in front of us. Dogs generally do that, unless we give them a reason to believe we are like someone who abused them. So, smacking a dog of unknown background to communicate to the dog, might be the last thing you want to do. 

Generally it is unnecessary and counter-productive.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Chip18 said:


> No doubt ... but you know ... I don't care and neither do owners with problem dogs. "I" break it down to it's essence! And the function is "if I throw an "object" at my dog" he will stop "that" behaviour!
> 
> Tin can full of rocks, a Throw Chain a "Bonker" or a "bundled pair of socks" for the record ... "that one is me" all the same thing to a dog?? Where did that come from??? If I don't do that "behaviour" "Act of God" correction ... does not happen??
> 
> *Good enough for me ... dogs don't care about "history" AFAIK??? Or you know people can spend $300 bucks on an "E Collar" and accomplish the same thing I can do with a pair of socks. *




Let's be very clear about this, you can NOT accomplish the same things with a pair of socks or rolled up towel that you can with an E collar.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> [/I][/B]
> 
> Let's be very clear about this, you can NOT accomplish the same things with a pair of socks or rolled up towel that you can with an E collar.


You can't?!? :surprise:


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> [/I][/B]
> 
> Let's be very clear about this, you can NOT accomplish the same things with a pair of socks or rolled up towel that you can with an E collar.


The particular issues I was addressing was "Counter Surfing." And the "specific parallel" was that an "E-Collars" works at a distance and so does a pair of socks.  

As to if anyone other than "Gary" can stop a (Pack Fight) with a "Throw Pillow???" I missed my window of opportunity for "Proof of Concept" ... I had no "E-Collar" or "Socks" handy at the time ... those many years ago. But we did have lots of "Throw Pillows."


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well I guess ... "silly season" is in full effect??? The topic as I understood it, was about "hitting" the dog to stop a "Behaviour" not "hitting a dog to "Train" them. 

If a dog is engaging in a "behaviour" that can get them killed?? Then you need to stop it right freaking now or you won't have a dog to "Train." Apparently that "appears" to be a subtle distinction that some don't get but whatever. 

If one actually wants to know how to train a dog by "laying hands on them" then work with "Baillif." 

My advise to people struggling with a dog with issues is "Use a Drag Leash (indoors) so that you don't have to be laying hands on the dog!"
Anyone is free to do a search on that one. 

Yet again ... had I followed my own advise ... those many years ago ... most likely, I Would not have gotten them stitches! Live and learn.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Oh well I guess ... "silly season" is in full effect??? The topic as I understood it, was about "hitting" the dog to stop a "Behaviour" not "hitting a dog to "Train" them.
> 
> If a dog is engaging in a "behaviour" that can get them killed?? Then you need to stop it right freaking now or you won't have a dog to "Train." Apparently that "appears" to be a subtle distinction that some don't get but whatever.
> 
> ...


 
See, here's the problem with that. If you can lay hands on them to beat them, then you can get them out of harms way and train a good recall. Beating a dog makes it almost certain that if tension is high and danger is imminent, the dog is not going to go to you for protection. My dogs will.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> See, here's the problem with that. If you can lay hands on them to beat them, then you can get them out of harms way and train a good recall. Beating a dog makes it almost certain that if tension is high and danger is imminent, the dog is not going to go to you for protection. My dogs will.


And now we are ... beating dogs and hitting rescues??


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nigel said:


> If the dog does not see the act of the object being thrown, can it still get this negative association? Assuming the dog in the bonker example was oblivious before being hit with the object, would it be able to create a picture of what just took place? or Does it depend on the dog, the context and its previous experiences?


Yes ... in fact that is exactly how it works! Dog and context at anyrate. I did this thing that I ought not to be doing and "something" bad happened ... where did that come from??? 

It's aimed at the top of the head or neck region ... "intolerable' is the term "Gary" uses it delivers, a "consequence" that the dog finds "unacceptable" and the associates that "consequence" happening with his behaviour. 

It's simply a "tool" and like any "tool" it needs to be understood to be used and deployed successfully. And no ... unless you have one of those rare eye's in the back of there head "Doodles???" A "Bonker" Disciplined dog is not going to be going after "people that raise there arms??? If used "correctly" how is a dog going to make the association with a "Raised Arm???" Most likely ... a lack of imagination on my part??? 

A "Bonker" seemed pretty simple to me?? But ... people do stuff and it's mostly been a "fail" on "BoxerForum??"

Either the dogs are to fast or the "owners" are too slow ... or despite my links. People fail to understand??? I'm guessing the fails, do something to "telegraph" there intent and lose the moment?? The dogs see them and think it's a game?? Daddy was throwing that "object" to me and his aim sucks ... "Game On!"  

Moving on an argument could be made as to whether one should issue a "verbal correction" or let the dog "self correct" if a "Bonker is being used?? I don't know?? 

But the argument as to self- correction can be made here.:
Dog Training and Obedience Articles | Self Correction - Carpentersville, Illinois

If you don't need to use one that's great! But you asked a question instead of "inventing scenarios" to "diss" a tool or technique you don't like or understand. I can work with that.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> And now we are ... beating dogs and hitting rescues??


Maybe we're just not understanding one another Chip. 

I don't know what you mean by behavior that can get them killed that has to stop right freaking now. Is it kind of like when I saw a mother talking to a fellow uptown, and her two-year old wandered between two parked cars, it happened so fast, I couldn't scream. Cars were going by, and the mother managed to snag the child and drag it literally from the jaws of death. She proceeded to beat the child. It was a reaction to having almost lost her baby. And we can judge her from now 'til forever, but I don't think she was a bad mother. I think that she realized in a split second that her baby almost died and lost it. We can be there. And that is what I thought you were talking about -- extreme situations where the dog is in serious danger. If someone beat the dog in that circumstance, I can be understanding for the feeling, but I don't think it would be helpful at all to a dog, or the dog/human bond.

Furthermore, situations where the dog is in serious danger are totally on us. I don't like punishing a dog for something that is my fault.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Yes ... in fact that is exactly how it works! Dog and context at anyrate. I did this thing that I ought not to be doing and "something" bad happened ... where did that come from???
> 
> It's aimed at the top of the head or neck region ... "intolerable' is the term "Gary" uses it delivers, a "consequence" that the dog finds "unacceptable" and the associates that "consequence" happening with his behaviour.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I get this picture of Eddie Murphy in Raw I think, talking about his mother, and how she would grab her shoe and Thwappp!!! Boomerang action. LOL! Sorry. I think there is a better argument for using the approach with kids than there is with dogs. My younger brother, Mark.....


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

This is what the OP posted to start this thread:

*I hope this doesn't get too heated in controversy. i don't abuse any animals but i'll give a light butt smack along with a loud NO if something serious happens like knocking over the trash can to get to chicken bones. anybody else give smacks or anybody want me arrested?*

It is very different than this:

*Oh well I guess ... "silly season" is in full effect??? The topic as I understood it, was about "hitting" the dog to stop a "Behaviour" not "hitting a dog to "Train" them. 

If a dog is engaging in a "behaviour" that can get them killed?? Then you need to stop it right freaking now or you won't have a dog to "Train." Apparently that "appears" to be a subtle distinction that some don't get but whatever. *

If a dog is engaging in behavior that can get them killed, then I doubt throwing a rolled towel or pair of socks is really going to be that effective. I do agree that if a dog is doing something so serious that it is likely to be killed then you do need to stop it instantly. Throwing objects at dogs is not obedience training, it will work a few times depending on the dog and the situation. But, it tells me that the dog is not properly trained to begin with. A lot of basic obedience needs to be done and dogs with less than reliable recalls and poor obedience should not be put in a position where they can run loose or "get killed." 

JMO


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Maybe we're just not understanding one another Chip.


 LOL .. outstanding! You just did what it took me about 10 years and the "wrong dog to understand" ... " you can't win a dog over by "fighting with them!" To "prove" that is so ... I shall put down my "metaphorical flame thrower" and 
explain. 

I did all he normal "well behaved" dog "stuff." Walk well on leash, don't bolt out doorways, Sit/Stay/Down don't bark in the backyard at nothing, fence fighting is not allowed etc etc and all I used was a leash and verbal markers.

Worked out fine .. until it didn't! What I failed to understand was that my "other" dogs functioned just fine without "structure" but "Rocky" not so much! And he "sucked me in by showing "no signs of trouble ... that I saw??" And then it was on! Months of battles ensued and yeah, I've told that story.

But it was the loss of my "Band Dawg" and "Marilyn's" saying this "crap" has to stop or "Rocky is gone!" That finally put a stop to the madness! 

I "stopped" doing and started "thinking??" And that is when things "changed!" And "Rocky was a "Bubble Dog" for a while ... a dog that needs to "Muzzled" to be safe in public. I no longer cared what he thought ... this is how it is, and he got that. And nope no "Bonker" or Coercion needed. And I settled in for life with "Rocky" round three. 

And I was good with that ... "in Big Deal" But when I started doing "Doggy Boards" I saw that what I'd done was kinda sorta of a big deal?? I became curious, as to why what I did worked and how people can get it wrong??? 

I worked backwards to better understand how I got it right. 



selzer said:


> I don't know what you mean by behavior that can get them killed that has to stop right freaking now.


 Is it kind of like when I saw a mother talking to a fellow uptown, and her two-year old wandered between two parked cars, it happened so fast, I couldn't scream. Cars were going by, and the mother managed to snag the child and drag it literally from the jaws of death. She proceeded to beat the child. It was a reaction to having almost lost her baby. And we can judge her from now 'til forever, but I don't think she was a bad mother. I think that she realized in a split second that her baby almost died and lost it. We can be there. And that is what I thought you were talking about -- extreme situations where the dog is in serious danger. If someone beat the dog in that circumstance, I can be understanding for the feeling, but I don't think it would be helpful at all to a dog, or the dog/human bond.[/QUOTE] Yes and out here a "Door Bolting Dog" is a behaviour that"needs to be stopped right freaking now! And if they show in my yard??? They are about 4 homes away from HWY 50. 

I saved one and I used a SLL fashioned from a Jump Rope to walk her home to her owner. The owner was surprised as she never walks her ... "Back Yard" dog. They never walk them good luck getting her to "Threshold Train" her dog. That would be a "Bonker" person and maybe if they could quickly stop that behaviour ... they could do more??? And one need not "imagine" how a Bunker can stop a "Door Bolting" dog the internet is your friend. 



selzer said:


> Furthermore, situations where the dog is in serious danger are totally on us. I don't like punishing a dog for something that is my fault.


 I never said it was not our fault?? But apparently I'm the only one surrounded by those who won't make any effort to train there dog??? If you won't bother to train your dog at least punish, them for doing something that could get them killed. But you know "PO" is the thing, and if that does not work, they live with the behaviour. Next time Miss Cattle Dog/GSD bolts out the front door ... I might not be home??? Understanding "that" mindset is where I come from with the "Bonker" thing. 

Hence my bothering to read "Gary's Book." I was quite surprised to learn that he is also a "Click and Treat" guy and uses a "Gentle Leader?? "Click and Treat" I don't do, but whatever. The GL thing however yeah ... not a fan! Still, Gary has no shortage of attendees at his seminars?? So apparently the this needs to "Stop" now, thing has it's appeal???

But I don't agree with everything "trainers" I follow do either. Just "me" I guess??? And for the record I have and do label the"Bonker" as *"Behaviour Modification" not "Training!"* But you know people only see what they chose to see??? 

I "explained/showed" that last one also ... yesss that was fun ... not. Oh and I was "questioned" by a "Pro" on "BoxerForum" as to why I bother ... with all "this" effort and at the time I said if I can reach 5 people ... then it's worth my effort!


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> I never said it was not our fault?? But apparently I'm the only one surrounded by those who won't make any effort to train there dog???


Nope. My neighbors have three pit mixes well one may be a Husky mix. Anyway 3 mongrels. They are constantly escaping from their deck and running town. One has already been hit by a car. It cost them a couple thousand dollars to get the dogs leg fixed. I first explained that for the cost of fixing another dogs leg I could fix their deck and gates so the dogs couldn't escape. They declined. Didn't have the cash. So I told them that if they bought e collars I would show them how to use them. For recall so if they did escape or just to try and do some boundary training. I don't think they're really disciplined enough for boundary training. Anyway they are content driving and running all over town chasing these dogs. And if the dogs see them they bolt the opposite way. It's ridiculous.


----------



## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

My friend uses a thin leather whip when his sled dogs get into a fight, I used to think it was mean then he smacked me on the leg to show me. Left a welt for a few minutes, no bruise after but OMG did it ever sting!!! He said e-collars don't work on a fighting husky but the whip prevents injuries caused by dogs attacking each other......I think its a huge difference between discipline and abuse


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I hope everyone knows that I make no pretense of being a trainer or having years of experience. I have had two dogs in my adult life and Newlie is my only German Shepherd. When this thread was started, the OP asked a question and I answered it honestly, but my answer was not intended to be advice for anyone else. I would not dream of it because many, maybe even most of you, do not have a dog like Newlie.

Newlie is a soft dog who likes people. His two flaws are that he cannot be trusted around other dogs and his poor impulse control. You can practise the same thing over and over again, but if he gets excited, all that goes out the window. You can praise him for good behavior till the cows come home, it doesn't make any difference once he gets excited. This is where the occasional swat came in, and I prefer to use the word "swat" rather than "smack." I am sure the first time I did it, it was just a reaction. He grabbed the ball out of my hands after I thought we were over that, it hurt my hand, and I swatted him. He hasn't done it for a long time now. And no, that isn't because he has been cowed or beaten down, it is because I think he finally realized that when I said "no," I meant "no." And when Newlie occasionally gets a swat, he doesn't wear the expression of fear or "she must be crazy" or "I can't trust her anymore," but "Huh, she REALLY does not like that, I must remember not to do it again." It is rare, so it makes a big impact on him.

Newlie and I are devoted and trust each other. Part of that bond is knowing that we will never really hurt one another. When his leg was being manipulated before and after the ACL tear, I held his head because I knew I was in no danger of being bitten. If something is really painful, he will hide his head between my legs. If it's a medical procedure that is uncomfortable or that he he just doesn't like, he will maintain eye contact with me as if he wants to make sure that I am OK with whatever is happening. He sleeps in my bed at night and since he flops around, often his face, and therefore his teeth, or within inches of my face. I do not think anything about it. That is the bond we have.

Also, I asked this question before, but it may have gotten lost in all the other posts. Why do some people feel that a leash correction, even a harsh one, is OK, but are horrified at the idea of a swat? I wish someone would explain that to me because I don't understand.


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

MishkasMom said:


> My friend uses a thin leather whip when his sled dogs get into a fight, I used to think it was mean then he smacked me on the leg to show me. Left a welt for a few minutes, no bruise after but OMG did it ever sting!!! He said e-collars don't work on a fighting husky but the whip prevents injuries caused by dogs attacking each other......I think its a huge difference between discipline and abuse


There is a huge difference, but it seems that difference isn't as clear to some people?

I just look at it this way: I got spanked as a child for not doing what my parents explicitly told me to do (and what I KNEW I was supposed to do) when it came to behaving in public and around other people. I see the "smack the dog" discussion along the same vein. Should we rephrase the topic to "Spank the dog?"

And before anyone says, "Dogs are not people", then why are we always saying they're like toddlers and have the intelligence of a small child? Does one not also discipline a toddler for behaving poorly?

Anyway. I don't think anyone here is advocating outright hitting or beating their dog. And I hardly think anyone in this thread has problems with their dogs fearing their hands.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kyrielle said:


> And before anyone says, "Dogs are not people", then why are we always saying they're like toddlers and have the intelligence of a small child? Does one not also discipline a toddler for behaving poorly?
> .


Because people feel the need to humanize them and define their intelligence to a human standard. 

Dogs are not People. They don't act like people. They don't think like people. They don't interact like people. Dogs are not Furbabies. Dogs are not People. 

Dogs are Dogs. They don't need to be anything more than they already are.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

newlie said:


> I hope everyone knows that I make no pretense of being a trainer or having years of experience. I have had two dogs in my adult life and Newlie is my only German Shepherd. When this thread was started, the OP asked a question and I answered it honestly, but my answer was not intended to be advice for anyone else. I would not dream of it because many, maybe even most of you, do not have a dog like Newlie.
> 
> Newlie is a soft dog who likes people. His two flaws are that he cannot be trusted around other dogs and his poor impulse control. You can practise the same thing over and over again, but if he gets excited, all that goes out the window. You can praise him for good behavior till the cows come home, it doesn't make any difference once he gets excited. This is where the occasional swat came in, and I prefer to use the word "swat" rather than "smack." I am sure the first time I did it, it was just a reaction. He grabbed the ball out of my hands after I thought we were over that, it hurt my hand, and I swatted him. He hasn't done it for a long time now. And no, that isn't because he has been cowed or beaten down, it is because I think he finally realized that when I said "no," I meant "no." And when Newlie occasionally gets a swat, he doesn't wear the expression of fear or "she must be crazy" or "I can't trust her anymore," but "Huh, she REALLY does not like that, I must remember not to do it again." It is rare, so it makes a big impact on him.
> 
> ...


I think some people see using your hands for correction as being more personal than a using a leash/collar and it may possibly damage your relationship because of this. 

They're smart, don't they know the leash pressure is coming from you? maybe the leash buys you a sliver of seperation compared to using hands?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Nope. My neighbors have three pit mixes well one may be a Husky mix. Anyway 3 mongrels. They are constantly escaping from their deck and running town. One has already been hit by a car. It cost them a couple thousand dollars to get the dogs leg fixed. I first explained that for the cost of fixing another dog's leg I could fix their deck and gates so the dogs couldn't escape. They declined. Didn't have the cash. So I told them that if they bought e collars I would show them how to use them. For recall so if they did escape or just to try and do some boundary training. I don't think they're really disciplined enough for boundary training. Anyway they are content driving and running all over town chasing these dogs. And if the dogs see them they bolt the opposite way. It's ridiculous.


OK, so it's not just me that has dog owning neighbors with uh ... Poor, Training, Skills. 

The main problem with your offer to help is that it would cost "something??" Of course one would "think" that after having to spend thousand of dollars to fix a dogs leg ... they would better understand that "they" have a problem ... but you know "apparently"such is not the case??? Not really sure how people that already have one badly behaved dog ... decide to add more??? Understanding that is beyond my scope??? It goes without saying (one would think) that the gate needs to be repaired?? But whatever, right "now are "no or minor" consequences for the dogs escaping the yard although one think being hit by a car ... would be a consequence but "apparently not??"

They get out and generally have a great time the owners retrieve tham and bring them back. For the most part ... for them (the dogs) it was a great day. They do as they've been "trained."

If there were real "consequences" for leaving the yard, they'ed not be so eager to do that. It can be taught and the only "cost" associated are "time and the willingness" to take action to stop a behaviour that could get them killed. I actually "stumbled" onto that "concept" many decades ago ... maybe even before "Gary???" I stopped a behaviour cold ... that would have gotten "Chip"( first dog "Basenji) killed or rehomed if he kept it up! But instead of a "Bonker" I used a bucket of water!:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7813953-post3.html

I never thought anything more about "it." That problem was solved by delivering an "intolerable" consequence for making a "Poor Choice." Chip never did that again! All it took was a "willingness" to take direct action. Same thing "should" work for these dogs??? Most likely one of them is the leader and the others simply follow?? Don't known but the leader should be easy to identify?? One would set him up and lay in wait! When he sticks his head out the gate ... he gets nailed in the face with a "Bonker" or "Water Balloon" (more range) or you know a "Bucket of Water!" 

And yeah it would best to have a long tie back on one of the dogs just in case??? So it could be solved with zero dollars spent. But ... a lot of time and effort required to be sure ... there are always trade offs. And granted it's not your problem but you know ... if your curious ... there you go.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MishkasMom said:


> My friend uses a thin leather whip when his sled dogs get into a fight, I used to think it was mean then he smacked me on the leg to show me. Left a welt for a few minutes, no bruise after but OMG did it ever sting!!! He said e-collars don't work on a fighting husky but the whip prevents injuries caused by dogs attacking each other......* I think it's a huge difference between discipline and abuse*


LOL Huskies and other Sled dogs ... too much "work for me!" 

I watched an episode of "Wild Alaska" or something like that?? His sled dogs got into it! The guy waded in there and applied his "foot" to the dogs! Not hard enough to injure them of course but with enough force to get there attention! They stopped fighting! "I can't have the injuring each other by fighting!" Made sense but yeah I'd think a "Dressage Whip" would have been a better option??

And the part in bold ... yes there is! And that difference is most important and least understood by the "dog owners" with some of the worst behaved dogs ... what are you gonna do???


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

newlie said:


> I hope everyone knows that I make no pretense of being a trainer or having years of experience. I have had two dogs in my adult life and Newlie is my only German Shepherd. When this thread was started, the OP asked a question and I answered it honestly, but my answer was not intended to be advice for anyone else. I would not dream of it because many, maybe even most of you, do not have a dog like Newlie.


Aww ..."Newlie" don't sweat it. We are all here to learn and share experiences. And your dog maynot be like mine but he may be like someone else's??? No one knows but how you explain and your experiences can help others. Don't sweat the small stuff.  





newlie said:


> Newlie is a soft dog who likes people. His two flaws are that he cannot be trusted around other dogs and his poor impulse control. You can practise the same thing over and over again, but if he gets excited, all that goes out the window. You can praise him for good behavior till the cows come home, it doesn't make any difference once he gets excited.


Yeah the "excitement thing" I kinda sorta lost that battle with my "Boxer!!" She luv'd people and that butt would just wiggle! The good news is she stopped jumping on people. I used "Down and Stay" to control her but those were like an "OFF and ON" switch?? Nothing in between in public she was a "Please Do if people asked to pet her. I might have overdone that everybody was a yes??

And at home ... yeah she was kinda sorta "embarrassing" the antics would start with company, I'd say go to bed and she would ... but she'd plead with her eyes and (at home especially) she would wiggle in a down. And just stare at company and it was always men ... who would say aww, she's fine let her up. And I would and giggles laughs and crazy Boxer antics would ensue! It was what I most enjoyed about her but yeah she was a bit much.

Long way of saying ... there was a "gap" in what I was doing "no impulse control??" No need for it (to her) as she fully understood that she would not be in a "Stay" for more than 'five" minutes at the most??? Had I know of "Place and Sit on the Dog" at the time?? I think those things would have filled the "gap" I had??? She could carry off the crazy from a "Down" or "Bed" but I'm pretty sure she could not have kept it up for twenty minutes to an hour???? 

The other dog thing ... yeah I fully understand that one. My Band Dawg was clearly a scary dog (threat to other dogs) and no dog I donot touches my Boxer. So training them to ignore other dogs ... worked out just fine for me for years! Only circumstances forced me to let them engage with "three strays!" Rounded them up on the front yard and no choice but to bring them in to keep them safe! 

The, three Shiba Inu, Jack Russell and a Shizu were all a blanced pack as were "unbeknownst" to me at the time mine also??? Ultimately I think a part of that was becasue they had never had a bad experiance with other dogs so why should they care?? Everybody had a great time! I was sorry to see them go but we found there home so back they went. 

If you have the opportunity to do "Pack Walks" I would take advantage of it. All dogs on leashes, so owners that "care" for the most part would be plentiful. Pack walks were nothing I was aware of at the time??? The little things add up to make a whole, sounds like your doing just fine. 





newlie said:


> This is where the occasional swat came in, and I prefer to use the word "swat" rather than "smack." I am sure the first time I did it, it was just a reaction. He grabbed the ball out of my hands after I thought we were over that, it hurt my hand, and I swatted him. He hasn't done it for a long time now. And no, that isn't because he has been cowed or beaten down, it is because I think he finally realized that when I said "no," I meant "no." *And when Newlie occasionally gets a swat, he doesn't wear the expression of fear or "she must be crazy" or "I can't trust her anymore," but "Huh, she REALLY does not like that, I must remember not to do it again." It is rare, so it makes a big impact on him.*


 The part in bold ... understood .. I got nothing to add. Sounds good. 






newlie said:


> Newlie and I are devoted and trust each other. Part of that bond is knowing that we will never really hurt one another. When his leg was being manipulated before and after the ACL tear, I held his head because I knew I was in no danger of being bitten. If something is really painful, he will hide his head between my legs. If it's a medical procedure that is uncomfortable or that he he just doesn't like, he will maintain eye contact with me as if he wants to make sure that I am OK with whatever is happening. He sleeps in my bed at night and since he flops around, often his face, and therefore his teeth, or within inches of my face. I do not think anything about it. That is the bond we have.


Glad the surgery went well! And you and your dog are working on his issues. 

I have to say thou that becasue he is as you say a "soft dog" being in bed with you "may" be feeding into that?? Not saying yea or nay ... just saying. But that's just stuff I know not stuff I did. My Band Dawg, slept in our bed pretty much from the start and but of course Struddel did right at the gate! No consideration to using a "Crate" given at all??? I'd pay a price for that "lack acknowledge" a few years later with "Rocky!"
You know the old .... "my other dogs thing."






newlie said:


> Also, I asked this question before, but it may have gotten lost in all the other posts. Why do some people feel that a leash correction, even a harsh one, is OK, but are horrified at the idea of a swat? I wish someone would explain that to me because I don't understand.


Hmmm seems like you are "correct" it did get lost??? I'll bail on that one but yeah "insight" into that would be interesting ... good question??


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

newlie said:


> Also, I asked this question before, but it may have gotten lost in all the other posts. Why do some people feel that a leash correction, even a harsh one, is OK, but are horrified at the idea of a swat? I wish someone would explain that to me because I don't understand.


I agree with what Nigel stated. First, I am not against correcting a dog for disobedience. Disobedience comes after a dog has been taught, trained and understands a command or behavior and decides not to do it. If a dog does not understand a command or has not been properly trained it is unfair to correct a dog, IMO. There are many ways to discipline a dog that are fair and correct. From mildly adverse to harsh. 

I stated earlier that I use my hands for praising and petting not for hitting. That doesn't mean that I won't grab my dog by the collar strongly or force my dog into a sit if needed for example. The things I don't do are "alpha rolls" or the "claw thing" with my fingers to the dogs neck to simulate that I am an alpha dog or "bitch" correcting her pups. I'm not a dog and I will not act like one. That is just silly stuff. 

A good correction is one that stops the behavior immediately and makes the dog remember today, tomorrow and next week what happened and not want to do it again. 

There is a lot to delivering a proper correction; timing, amount of force or pressure to use and then to praise and reward when the dog is correct. You need to know the temperament level of the dog, the hardness level of the dog and how the dog will react to your correction. This all works into the correct type and level of correction a dog gets. Every dog is different. One thing that is universal is that poorly given, poorly timed and ineffective corrections will make things worse. Combine that with getting angry at your dog and you have a mess. If this happens with a dog owner using their hands for enforcement and screws it up, it is really a mess. 

Since every dog is different, giving advice that worked for one or two dogs as a universal "behavior modification technique" is a bad idea. What may have worked for one person's pet may be extreme for someones else's dog. Or totally ineffective for another dog. For example, because you once threw something at a dog to break up a fight does not mean that will work with a much harder dog. I have dogs and work with dogs that will not blink if hit with a towel or a bucket of water. I have plenty of videos of this. I throw rolled towels at dogs almost daily, it is a reward for narcotics detection. 

I do not make my corrections personal and I never hold a grudge. Even with Boru who would come up the leash after a correction. Once it was over and he was clear headed and back in drive, he is instantly praised for the right behavior. He was corrected for the wrong behavior and sternly, and rewarded when he was correct. I might have been annoyed at the original behavior, but I don't hold a grudge. I go right back to work, in a good mood. I do not lose my temper and yell or go overboard, IMO this makes things worse and you lose control. 

I'm not horrified by a "swat". As Bailif correctly mentioned, few people can do it right and maintain their relationship with their dog. Most folks can not correct with out being angry or frustrated, if your one of those then using your hands may be a bad idea. 

FWIW


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

One of our dogs that is rewarded in narcotics detection by having a rolled up towel thrown at him, he also does not care about buckets of water. :grin2:


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> I agree with what Nigel stated. First, I am not against correcting a dog for disobedience. Disobedience comes after a dog has been taught, trained and understands a command or behavior and decides not to do it. If a dog does not understand a command or has not been properly trained it is unfair to correct a dog, IMO. There are many ways to discipline a dog that are fair and correct. From mildly adverse to harsh.
> 
> I stated earlier that I use my hands for praising and petting not for hitting. That doesn't mean that I won't grab my dog by the collar strongly or force my dog into a sit if needed for example. The things I don't do are "alpha rolls" or the "claw thing" with my fingers to the dogs neck to simulate that I am an alpha dog or "bitch" correcting her pups. I'm not a dog and I will not act like one. That is just silly stuff.
> 
> ...


My post was not directed at you, slamdunc, or really anybody, just trying to clarify my ealier post and understand better where people are coming from.


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I think some people see using your hands for correction as being more personal than a using a leash/collar and it may possibly damage your relationship because of this.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Nigel, I think you are probably right. It does not bother me at all, though, that Newlie knows the corrections come from me, in fact I prefer it. I am not afraid of our relationship being hurt by the kind of correction I give and I wouldn't want him to think I would stand by and watch someone else correct him.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

newlie said:


> My post was not directed at you, slamdunc, or really anybody, just trying to clarify my ealier post and understand better where people are coming from.


I was just trying to help clarify things and give my opinion on corrections. I did quote you in the post as I wanted to address your question. But, the rest of my post was not directed at you. It was a general statement. I hope you didn't think the entire post was meant for you. It was a general post to hopefully clear up some misconceptions that several people seem to be having. 

I felt the need to comment on some silly stuff that keeps getting mentioned as a cure all for all dogs. That had absolutely nothing to do with you and Newlie. :wink2:


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs are kind of like toddlers in their emotions. Children are so much more complex in their thought patterns. It is not even fair to compare them, we are different species, and none of us is a canine, none of us can actually provide an accurate depiction of what is going on in a dog's brain. 

But, we know they understand _some _things to _some _extent. We train their behavior, whether they are thinking or following an instinct, we can train them to perform certain behaviors and to not do other behaviors. 

There are so many differences in raising children, even little children. The object in disciplining children is to produce a functioning adult, who is independent, and who has a moral compass. We discipline them so that they may discipline themselves down the road. We discipline so that they think how their actions effect others, and how they make others feel. 

We are not trying to distinguish a single behavior, we are trying to build enough character that the child knows the behavior is wrong and why, and to build character so that the child understands that other behaviors would also be wrong and why. If we had to punish a child for everything he might possibly do that might be wrong, childhood would really suck. 

Dogs are less complex. The object is never to expect the dog to grow up and live on his own, supporting themselves. If we choose autocratic discipline, we can train a dog what to do, and what not to do. We manage the dog when we are not there, by keeping them secure, and by waiting to give the the freedom of the run of the house, until we have given them that freedom enough when we are there to correct unwanted behavior enough that, with maturity, the dog is extremely unlikely to do something dangerous within the limits that the dog is given. 

We can set a dog up to succeed without physical discipline, by being consistent, not permissive. By rewarding good choices, and providing some form of negative marker for unwanted behaviors, to provide an opportunity for the desired behavior, and to praise for the desired behavior. We can use what motivates the dog to increase good choices, and we manage the environment to reduce the opportunity for making poor choices, or at least dangerous choices. 

Personally, with life skills, I do not like to give the dog the impression that obeying commands is optional. So, until that dog is excellent in performing the command, I do not give the command when we are not connected, and I cannot help the dog to achieve it if necessary. So, yes, if my pup is chasing and Amish buggy down the road, I am not going to yell, COME!!! Nope. I would be calling her name and digging in my pocket as for treats, or running in the opposite direction, but I am not going to use a command that she is unlikely to follow and I cannot enforce. 

A love tap isn't going to extinguish this behavior. Darn-near abusing the dog with a whip or my hand might, but the problem would be having a loose untrained dog -- human fix that problem. Leash the dog, and train the dog to be 100% with distractions on COME. 

Having a dog that will bolt out the door means you crate the dog before you open the door. Or you leash the dog before opening the door. That doesn't mean you can't train the dog to wait for a release word before going through the door. Do that too. But there is no reason to physically punish the dog because you failed to train the dog. No reason to punish the dog because failed to manage the dog. No reason to punish the dog because you were mistaken as to the dog's level of training under distractions. There is no reason to punish the dog because we lack patience and consistency in training the dog. 

Some dogs learn quicker and some learn things hard, that is, once it is learned it is programmed in and they will not deviate. Dogs are all different. That doesn't mean some need to be physically punished to get your point across.


----------



## Kungfupanda (Mar 24, 2016)

selzer said:


> Dogs are kind of like toddlers in their emotions. Children are so much more complex in their thought patterns. It is not even fair to compare them, we are different species, and none of us is a canine, none of us can actually provide an accurate depiction of what is going on in a dog's brain.
> 
> But, we know they understand _some _things to _some _extent. We train their behavior, whether they are thinking or following an instinct, we can train them to perform certain behaviors and to not do other behaviors.
> 
> ...


What a great read. Passage filled with reminders. My husband has been away for work for 3 months and will continue to be for the next 2 months. I am getting so frustrated with our soon to be 9 month old intact male pup. You are totally right, the positive things I have taught (even by accident), such as waiting by the door while I put on my shoes, pay off, when the door is open and he just hangs out near by. The things I haven't taught (he was a pup all winter so we didn't go sit for hours at a park practicing attention), he can't do yet. Time to embrace the good weather and reinvest. I am guilty of light tapping and shooing on pups snout when he's begging for food/groceries, and I should just be training him to down stay.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kungfupanda said:


> What a great read. Passage filled with reminders. My husband has been away for work for 3 months and will continue to be for the next 2 months. I am getting so frustrated with our soon to be 9 month old intact male pup. You are totally right, the positive things I have taught (even by accident), such as waiting by the door while I put on my shoes, pay off, when the door is open and he just hangs out near by. The things I haven't taught (he was a pup all winter so we didn't go sit for hours at a park practicing attention), he can't do yet. Time to embrace the good weather and reinvest. I am guilty of light tapping and shooing on pups snout when he's begging for food/groceries, and I should just be training him to down stay.


Hmmm ... you really don't have "smack your dog solutions?" If you can walk him??? Then you have your the solution for 90% of your problems. And training "Place" and doing "Sit on the Dog" will take care of the rest are at the least make them easier to address.

But it has to be a "proper structured walked," no sniffing about or wandering, no talking to him other that the occasional good dog. Just walk ... in silence, you should forget the dog is even there???

And pick a spot to let him go potty. If you can do ... just that ... a lot of your other issues could be easily addressed with Place or can be stopped with a "No!"

And I don't know what tool you use to walk your dog?? I use a SLL, myself but most other effective trainers use a "Prong or an E-Collar." I'm not an E-Collar or Prong user, just saying what tools are used. 

And the Sit for hours bit??? Not really sure what you mean but it sounds like you put a twist on "Sit on the Dog???"

For clarification ... on that and the "Place Command" here you go.:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

A proper structured walk ... see here.:





And yes Jeff is using a "Prong Collar" but the clips about " the concept" for me anyway and not the tool. If you want to know how to use a "Prong Collar" that's another topic.

And if you need help with just the loose leash walking bit ... I don't know?? You could just go back to basics.

See here:





Your solutions ... maybe easier than you think.


----------



## Kungfupanda (Mar 24, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm ... you really don't have "smack your dog solutions?" If you can walk him??? Then you have your the solution for 90% of your problems. And training "Place" and doing "Sit on the Dog" will take care of the rest are at the least make them easier to address.
> 
> But it has to be a "proper structured walked," no sniffing about or wandering, no talking to him other that the occasional good dog. Just walk ... in silence, you should forget the dog is even there???
> 
> ...


I replied to this but not sure what happened to my post. I don't know what I said that makes you think my pup can't walk on lead or that he's untrained. I also can't seem to make sense of most of what you're saying due to accidental typos and grammar. My pup is 9 months and well socialized so he loves dogs and people but because he's 9 months if I let him offlead in a public area he'd take off giving everyone love licks. I was just saying however frustrating that is, it's my fault because I didn't sit in public areas with him and have him sit patiently or 'settle' which is our version of place. WE also sit on the dog for 30-60 mins each evening and he settles quite wonderfully in the home. But obviously since we don't practice it for that long at the park, he's not going to do it at the park for as long as I'd like. I was just agreeing with Selzer.

I also feel that me mentioning my husband is away suddenly makes some people's mysoginistic subconscious thoughts kick in. Between my husband and I, I am the lead trainer. I'm a physician though, and have a lot of work requirements so having this breed and being fair to the dog requires a 2 people team, for our family unit. Currently we're a one person team so I am sleeping 5 hrs to day max, and a bit achey as I walk him 5-6 km daily and once mid week and both days weekends we do long hikes in the woods,do obedience 1.5 x/day, i'm personally maintaining our entire property, packing up our house for a move, playing and running with our dog. So my 5'4 120 lbs body is tired. And it's leading me to be frustrated with our dog, so Selzer's post was a nice 'back to principles' read, and it wasn't judgemental at all. I appreciated that.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kungfupanda said:


> I replied to this but not sure what happened to my post. I don't know what I said that makes you think my pup can't walk on lead or that he's untrained. I also can't seem to make sense of most of what you're saying due to accidental typos and grammar. My pup is 9 months and well socialized so he loves dogs and people but because he's 9 months if I let him offlead in a public area he'd take off giving everyone love licks. I was just saying however frustrating that is, it's my fault because I didn't sit in public areas with him and have him sit patiently or 'settle' which is our version of place. WE also sit on the dog for 30-60 mins each evening and he settles quite wonderfully in the home. But obviously since we don't practice it for that long at the park, he's not going to do it at the park for as long as I'd like. I was just agreeing with Selzer.


Sorry ... very few say ... "my dog at 9 month walks well on leash and we do "Sit on the Dog??" Maybe some do but I have not seen it???

No idea about the husband deal ... I try and help dogs and owners. I don't do or comment on people relationships?? 

But it sounds like your issues are with your dogs off leash behaviour??? But I suppose I don't know??? My apologies ... just trying to help.


----------

