# Emotion control in IPO (Whining/Screaming)



## BoostedEK (Apr 3, 2020)

There are so many topic on whining, looked through a lot of them but most of them are about household situations..

For me, whining/screaming becomes a problem when we go to our training field. I just do not know how to contain/calm down my dog. He loves protection very much and I guess that's what he wants and gets so excited every time we go to training. He does not become deaf or uncontrollable, but as some I saw in other topic his drive is certainly "leaking". I can come up to him when he's in protection mode, ask him to heel and walk away from handler without leash or correction. And he will heel and maintain eye contact and... whine/scream at me.. Same happens even then we are not doing protection training in the field.

I just do not know what to do, for past few months all our training sessions were based mostly to keep the dog quiet by rewarding silence. But it feels like there is 0 progress. Since on each new training session all that is the same.

He does not behave that bad in casual scenarios/daily walks short obedience sessions and etc.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

what's his pedigree?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Why did you stop rewarding calmness?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The only thing I found helpful, its not only what you do, its that you have to do it a LOT. To V in a trial for his 2, I did protection 3 days a week. Obedience 7 and tracking at least 5. It came down to kind of wearing him down and outlasting him. Then when we did his 3, I didn't have that kind of time, and the leaking was the worse then before.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Extinguishing a behavior requires patience. You will see an extinguish burst with the behavior getting worse before it gets better because reinforcement is withheld. And there are relapses back into extinguish bursts. That is why I harp on decoys who try to maximize drive in bitework. Especially when you have a dog who is genetically prone to hectic drive.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, would like to know his pedigree. Certain lines are well-know for not being able to cap their drive, thus the screaming.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t think it is so much that certain lines/dogs can’t cap their drives as much as it is the improper foundation was layer not recognizing and mitigating for that genetic trait. Usually, the opposite is done where the hectic drive is reinforced.


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## BoostedEK (Apr 3, 2020)

Thank you everyone for your answers and questions
He is from european show lines. (We live in Europe) So I don't know if posting whole pedigree would help much. Both his parents has IPO1 passed. But I did notice then we took him, that his mother had some hectic behaviour in general. Being noob owners, at that time didn't think too much of that... I do think he has tendency genetically to be whinner. But that's no excuse to drive me mad in our training sessions and I want to fix it somehow 

We did not stop rewarding silence. We still do, in fact most of the training sessions now are focusing on that part for months. Just I don't see any progress there and it's really challenging me mentally to be with screamer, and being stuck with same problem month after month. In general, he never was reinforced for any kind of sounds, apart from protection training braking in front of handler.

Chip Blasiole, maybe you are right that foundations are not proper. Since we are noob owners in general (but do try our best). Initially the dog wasn't really interested in working with us for a long time, he didn't care about the ball or food. But we did taught him all the obedience nontheless. The issue was that he wasn't really interested in doing them, and did them without passion/speed. Our current trainer saw that he's really into protection, and said it would be helpful to introduce prey drive into our obedience so he would be interested in doing obedience, by asking him to bark on command and etc. It worked as expected and he's now very much into obedience if I have a ball on the rope. The side effect is the screaming/whining..

Steve Storm, Maybe wearing him down would work by doing training more. Just there is no way for me to go more frequent than twice a week to our training field. So the routine is, 2 times in training field (1hour sessions) per week. And of course he's whining less at the end of the sessions, since he's tired at that point. But first half is nightmare for me..

Also he has this problem only in our training field though. He is more or less capable of controlling emotions in our usual obedience training routine where there are just two of us, and while he ramps up there as well as soon as show him the ball with a rope it is nowhere near to the level we have on training field where we are doing protection also. The issue also started after we started doing protection.

In the end If I could translate my dog whinning in field I feel it sounds like this "god damnit, let's get over this stupid obedience stuff asap, so I get to bite the handler faster"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pedigrees do matter. Some lines are known for leaking drives. It just gives insight into the dog. Good luck with your dog.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Definitely agree that pedigree matters. Genetics play a big role here - ask any judge or training helper. 

My dog is a screamer. She is 3 years old and it is something I have been working on with EXPERIENCED well known trainers in the industry for over a year now. We are trying to get ready to trial in May (she has her BH). 

To some degree you can stop it... but I don't think you can get rid of it totally. It will either come out in other ways.

I do two things - depending on my dog that day - wait her out (or put her away and try again later or even another day) or run the crap out of her then work her. I usually will start with running blinds first on days where she is REALLY bad. Run a full set twice and I can usually then do some heeling with only minimal squeaking in position changes.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Definitely agree that pedigree matters. Genetics play a big role here - ask any judge or training helper.
> 
> My dog is a screamer. She is 3 years old and it is something I have been working on with EXPERIENCED well known trainers in the industry for over a year now. We are trying to get ready to trial in May (she has her BH).
> 
> ...


What is your strategy for calming her during tracking?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Definitely agree that pedigree matters. Genetics play a big role here - ask any judge or training helper.
> 
> My dog is a screamer. She is 3 years old and it is something I have been working on with EXPERIENCED well known trainers in the industry for over a year now. We are trying to get ready to trial in May (she has her BH).
> 
> ...


Have you tried just working on helper neutrality? That seems to be working for my female. Her bottom lines leaks terribly.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Bearshandler said:


> What is your strategy for calming her during tracking?


With tracking, it is as soon as she sees the flag - she screams and literally will bowl anyone over to get to it. Once she is working - she is quiet. She is fast and WAS hectic but with a lot more tracking under her belt - more frequently this has really helped with the hectic behaviour at the start.

What I did at the start was sit there. Any prong correction (she tracks on a live ring) would amp her up. If I hung her, she would fight me until _I_ was uncomfortable and gave up (and I am not a softie). She is a very determined dog and although I like that - it does make some things very difficult and slow going. I did A LOT of sitting at the flag.

I also start my tracks, about 3-5 feet back from the flag. So she doesn't see the flag as the starting point. I would even track up to the flag on an angle, so she didn't know where the track actually began.

For obedience, once she is in movement the screaming seems to stop - except secondary obedience which is getting better - we have been working with Marko since spring so he has really been a life saver and my decoys are wonderful who also are working with him so it's very consistent.

I am sure after this long break due to the lockdown though, we will see it surface a bit but have been working my OB with her regularly and it is getting better - again - I just keep working her and chose which exercises to do first to help burn off some steam - blinds, send outs, retrieves then go on to my heeling. I am also very black and white with her now - heeling means shut up and sit there - we move when your quiet - you make noise when we take a step - we go backwards and sit again. This took a LONG time to get through to her - like a whole season..... not easy for an impatient person.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Have you tried just working on helper neutrality? That seems to be working for my female. Her bottom lines leaks terribly.


Yes, along with a few other things. 

My poor wonderful dedicated decoys are amazing. 

Freya is a bit more sleeve orientated so I have also had club members stand around with sleeves and tugs while I practice "sit and shut up".  It has really helped. I also am more black and white about it these days which I am sure is attributing to her progress. 

We will see how well it works in May. Haha!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> With tracking, it is as soon as she sees the flag - she screams and literally will bowl anyone over to get to it. Once she is working - she is quiet. She is fast and WAS hectic but with a lot more tracking under her belt - more frequently this has really helped with the hectic behaviour at the start.
> 
> What I did at the start was sit there. Any prong correction (she tracks on a live ring) would amp her up. If I hung her, she would fight me until _I_ was uncomfortable and gave up (and I am not a softie). She is a very determined dog and although I like that - it does make some things very difficult and slow going. I did A LOT of sitting at the flag.
> 
> ...


I don’t have screaming, but everything else matches up tracking Cion. Even when I calm him before the start, he still starts at 200 miles an hour. If I have have him on the leash, he still just goes. He settles in when I just let him go without leash. It’s not so much an issue with obedience. It shows up in protection though. He’s gotten better with his equipment focus.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t have screaming, but everything else matches up tracking Cion. Even when I calm him before the start, he still starts at 200 miles an hour. If I have have him on the leash, he still just goes. He settles in when I just let him go without leash. It’s not so much an issue with obedience. It shows up in protection though. He’s gotten better with his equipment focus.


Do you use the track to slow him down? Food/corners/arcs? Do you approach the start in obedience (fussing)? Do you make him sit and control himself at the start of the tail? Sounds like he has a lot of opposition reflex and maybe your line handling needs help. Line handling is not easy. I suck at it. You should look up Lars Lentz.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What I did with Doc for tracking after we did his 1, is lay about 20 paces before the scent pad and platz him on those at about the mid point, and let him sniff right there. Calmly feed him a couple pieces of bait. Then he would be pretty well settled in. I'd do the same thing in the trial except without the bait. I sat him, checked in with the judge, went back to the same spot, set my leash and went forward to the scent pad. He never leaked in tracking though. It was just a matter of making sure he was concentrating on the track.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> What I did with Doc for tracking after we did his 1, is lay about 20 paces before the scent pad and platz him on those at about the mid point, and let him sniff right there. Calmly feed him a couple pieces of bait. Then he would be pretty well settled in. I'd do the same thing in the trial except without the bait. I sat him, checked in with the judge, went back to the same spot, set my leash and went forward to the scent pad. He never leaked in tracking though. It was just a matter of making sure he was concentrating on the track.



How did you lay 20 paces before the scent pad on the 2 and 3 in trial?


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t have screaming, but everything else matches up tracking Cion. Even when I calm him before the start, he still starts at 200 miles an hour. If I have have him on the leash, he still just goes. He settles in when I just let him go without leash. It’s not so much an issue with obedience. It shows up in protection though. He’s gotten better with his equipment focus.


You would track him without the lead? 

I usually use two leashes for tracking unless I am prepping for trial. I do not allow her to drag me, but she can be quite tight on the line. 

Definitely what Jax said, mix the tracking up. Use corners, articles and more bait to slow him down - I even use different bait on the track in no set pattern - rollover, kibble, etc.

I also have put no food on some legs and then jackpots throughout the track - this also helps slow her down without using articles (in case you don't have articles yet or have conflict at them too).


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> What I did with Doc for tracking after we did his 1, is lay about 20 paces before the scent pad and platz him on those at about the mid point, and let him sniff right there. Calmly feed him a couple pieces of bait. Then he would be pretty well settled in. I'd do the same thing in the trial except without the bait. I sat him, checked in with the judge, went back to the same spot, set my leash and went forward to the scent pad. He never leaked in tracking though. It was just a matter of making sure he was concentrating on the track.


My friend did his too and it worked nicely for his dog.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> How did you lay 20 paces before the scent pad on the 2 and 3 in trial?


My friend who used this sort of method, just sorta dragged her feet before she set her flag up, knowing that the judge would be a few feet away from where they started. It was basically her starting her track right as she entered the field - then just made sure to enter the field at the same location. If that makes sense? LOL


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Do you use the track to slow him down? Food/corners/arcs? Do you approach the start in obedience (fussing)? Do you make him sit and control himself at the start of the tail? Sounds like he has a lot of opposition reflex and maybe your line handling needs help. Line handling is not easy. I suck at it. You should look up Lars Lentz.


I walk him up in a heel. Once I tell him to start tracking he explodes no matter how long I’ve made him wait. He starts to load up as he sits there. I’ll try some of these things here like using the track and Steve’s idea. I’ll look up Lars.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> How did you lay 20 paces before the scent pad on the 2 and 3 in trial?


I mean in training, but there's still foot steps up to the pad in the trial. So he's still in the routine and ob of it even though its going to be closer to the pad.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> I mean in training, but there's still foot steps up to the pad in the trial. So he's still in the routine and ob of it even though its going to be closer to the pad.


Got it. So you are using a longer tail in practice so he's anticipating it in trial.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Bait here in the beginning X_______ Flag *50 paces/bait for a bit _* 

This is sort of how I set my tracks up right now (the bait after the flag varies each track - I am not consistent with where I bait at all.. LOL Which I guess makes a good tracking dog but a terrible handler! LOL


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Kind of. The important part is him sniffing the ground while waiting. We had to wait a long time for the judge in our 3, he stayed focused the whole time.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Kind of. The important part is him sniffing the ground while waiting. *We had to wait a long time for the judge* in our 3, he stayed focused the whole time.


This is my fear.. Haha!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, some of them like to talk a lot. Its cool when they're talking to you, but waiting,,,,,,,,,


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, some of them like to talk a lot. Its cool when they're talking to you, but waiting,,,,,,,,,


My old retired dog never cared for tracking so this wasn't an issue but my youngest... Oh boy... This will be our ultimate test! Haha!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Bait here in the beginning X_______ Flag *50 paces/bait for a bit _*
> 
> This is sort of how I set my tracks up right now (the bait after the flag varies each track - I am not consistent with where I bait at all.. LOL Which I guess makes a good tracking dog but a terrible handler! LOL


If anyone near you has Lars in, he's worth auditing. I like him a lot. Faren's foundation is mostly Zappia mixed with some Lentz. Similar methods. Faren started running down the track recently and nothing is going to stop her. Any correction, and tension on the leash, makes her drive forward. So I called a friend whose a WUSV competitor, who has been working with Lars, and we're restarting her. This was her track the last two days. Straight lines are food and I'm scooping her raw on to the track so in addition to the track slowing her down, the food is too. Either 2 paces to the article or 2 paces to an arc, with 3 paces into the arc. I'll add non food paces on the straight legs as she progresses.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

I am going to send you a video through FB with what we did... it is super interesting and I can't for the life of me remember which judge taught us.... you may know once you see the method... lol.


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## BoostedEK (Apr 3, 2020)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Any prong correction (she tracks on a live ring) would amp her up. If I hung her, she would fight me until _I_ was uncomfortable and gave up (and I am not a softie). She is a very determined dog and although I like that - it does make some things very difficult and slow going


It felt like you basically described my dog, where corrections simply does not matter as drive is more important than anything else for the dog..


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> I walk him up in a heel. Once I tell him to start tracking he explodes no matter how long I’ve made him wait. He starts to load up as he sits there. I’ll try some of these things here like using the track and Steve’s idea. I’ll look up Lars.


Try baiting a couple of steps leading to the scent pad.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> You would track him without the lead?
> 
> I usually use two leashes for tracking unless I am prepping for trial. I do not allow her to drag me, but she can be quite tight on the line.
> 
> ...


I did it similar to the way Ivan sales. My other dog is sensitive, so I actually feel I get better results without the lead. I’m working on the article indication right now, so I haven’t introduced them yet.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

I have only seen 1 dog do an IGP1 track off lead. It was under Bogdan Sergeo a few years ago. It was a retired showline who came out for fun to trial. Her track was against the wind and she dominated it.. Her corners were a thing of beauty. Her handler is a friend and super trainer with Longwoods club.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> I have only seen 1 dog do an IGP1 track off lead. It was under Bogdan Sergeo a few years ago. It was a retired showline who came out for fun to trial. Her track was against the wind and she dominated it.. Her corners were a thing of beauty. Her handler is a friend and super trainer with Longwoods club.


My memory on which one it was is a fuzzy since some of the information on them is starting to run together. It was either Cion’s dam or her dam that completed an fh2 off lead. They both completed fh2 at BSP. I’d have to ask again.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I believe that nature/genetics always trumps nurture/learning. Being able to recognize hectic behavior early on is crucial. I also believe that changes in breeding selection contributes to an increased amount of dogs with hectic drive that lack genetic aggression.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

putting random flags around may help stop a dog from dragging the handler to the flag. Make the starter flag less important. 
I know a few dogs that leak, some of it is handler excitement, and not being dead inside, and some dogs just cant cap their vocals.
Though, the dogs I know that are this way, are pretty clear headed surprisingly.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> putting random flags around may help stop a dog from dragging the handler to the flag. Make the starter flag less important.
> I know a few dogs that leak, some of it is handler excitement, and not being dead inside, and some dogs just cant cap their vocals.
> Though, the dogs I know that are this way, are pretty clear headed surprisingly.


Funny you say that because Frey is very clear headed. I'll take the screaming as I am thrilled with everything else..lol.


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