# Development question: To ScH or not?



## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

So we're facing a little bit of a dilemma. 

When we got Zeus from his breeder, we were asked not to neuter him so that he could later on be bred. She saw something exceptional in him and was pretty adamant about it. We said we'd make a decision when we got to that point in his/our life.

Well right now we're kind of getting there. The trainer we have been working with for two months now is an international ScH competitor. He is encouraging us to create more drive in Zeus, as he says it's the key for him to develop into a dog with the potential to do ScH.

However, we have noticed that Zeus has turned from a good, well balanced dog into a little bit of a butthead. He has not snapped out of the biting phase and at almost seven months old, he now has grown up teeth and can be a real handful. My better half is alone with him and our daughter since I am deployed and won't be back for a little while. 

So we looked into a place called "The Local Bark", where a family friend of hers took her two GSD's who had a lot of problems, mainly because she didn't have a clue what she was doing and bought a male and female from the same litter etc. Anyways, they had very "real" problems and went to their Doggy Bootcamp. Looking at them now you'd never guess they were borderline out of their minds. They listen well and can coexist in peace.

The Mrs went there there on Friday and spoke to their head trainer, who mentioned that she believes Zeus has a very dominant personality. He was constantly trying to mount and chew on her GSD who is full grown and way bigger than our boy. I have noticed that before myself and since we're really completely knew to GSD ownership, there are a lot of questions going through our minds. She also mentioned that it would be a good idea to neuter him in order to prevent aggression issues later on.

Of the many questions I am asking here, one of them is whether ScH is what we really want to do or if we'd rather have someone conduct "normal" obedience training with him if we're not hellbent on getting him titled and breeding him. I feel like a first grader confronted with an algebra test on this whole topic. 

Breeding him is not something that's important to us in the sense that we never wanted him to be a stud later. If that was the case, great, but it's not a deciding factor. I/we also don't want a dog that we can't keep up with...and we're an active family. 

So far, he gets three walks a day, two hour long daily training sessions and we play with him multiple times throughout the day. He's a happy camper by all accounts. But we're just wondering if it even makes sense to continue doing the ScH training if we don't necessarily have the time to compete later on.

Does any of this make sense?

And lastly, how does everyone here feel about neutering? I've read articles pro and con, but I'd like to hear from our board members here who do/do not compete in ScH and other sports or activities, what decision they made in that regard.

Thanks for listening!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would think that two hour training sessions is much too long for a pup of 7 months. Are you working his brain too or just his body? 
If the breeder saw something special worth reproducing in a young puppy, they would have kept him back or at least had a co-ownership. He shouldn't even be considered for breeding until health/hip/elbows have been done and he has some titles to prove him breedworthy.
If you do decide to do SchH with him, you really have to commit to it. 
I would not send him out for training, but be hands on in all aspects so you know how to deal with his dominant personality. Sometimes dogs act this way because the have gotten away with it since they were a young pup. 
As far as neutering, he is still young, I would wait on that anyway, let him mature before doing it-by then you can see whether or not he is something special to reproduce.
Thank you for your service, btw!!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Have you called your breeder? If they plan to use them in their breeding program I would assume you have him on a co-ownership type deal (not sure why else they would be adamant about not neutering him). 

Your pup is still just a pup even though he has adult teeth. Most "pet" type trainers have no clue how to work with a teenage WORKING dog and they will essentially be working exactly opposite of how the SCH trainer would have you work him. A good SCH trainer should be able to help you train him AND live with him. 

Before you take him to another trainer I would first contact the breeder and second talk with the SCH trainer.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> Your pup is still just a pup even though he has adult teeth. Most "pet" type trainers have no clue how to work with a teenage WORKING dog and they will essentially be working exactly opposite of how the SCH trainer would have you work him. A good SCH trainer should be able to help you train him AND live with him.
> 
> Before you take him to another trainer I would first contact the breeder and second talk with the SCH trainer.


So true. Who knows, you may just have an awesome dog on your hand but a pet trainer who wants to turn every dog into a newfie wouldn't know it.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Exercise and training are what makes a dog easy to live with NOT neutering. I have seen plenty of neutered dogs that are butt heads and plenty of intact dogs that aren't.

Personally, I would wait until he is at least 2yo to neuter.(If at all.) I don't believe in neutering (or spaying) puppies.

There are also plenty of dog aggressive neutered males. Neutering alone is NOT a guarantee that a dog won't be "aggressive" later on.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI would think that two hour training sessions is much too long for a pup of 7 months. Are you working his brain too or just his body?
> If the breeder saw something special worth reproducing in a young puppy, they would have kept him back or at least had a co-ownership. He shouldn't even be considered for breeding until health/hip/elbows have been done and he has some titles to prove him breedworthy.
> If you do decide to do SchH with him, you really have to commit to it.
> I would not send him out for training, but be hands on in all aspects so you know how to deal with his dominant personality. Sometimes dogs act this way because the have gotten away with it since they were a young pup.
> ...


Jane,

He is getting two "one hour" sessions a day. Usually one in the morning and then later on one in the evening. They're about an even mix of having fun and training. We understand that he's got a limited amount of mental focus right now.

The adamant is more along the lines of her asking us not to neuter him. There is no contractual obligation to keep him intact. Personally, I don't want to neuter him in the first place. Not because I want to breed him but because I don't want to hinder his mental and physical evolution.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqHave you called your breeder? If they plan to use them in their breeding program I would assume you have him on a co-ownership type deal (not sure why else they would be adamant about not neutering him).
> 
> Your pup is still just a pup even though he has adult teeth. Most "pet" type trainers have no clue how to work with a teenage WORKING dog and they will essentially be working exactly opposite of how the SCH trainer would have you work him. A good SCH trainer should be able to help you train him AND live with him.
> 
> Before you take him to another trainer I would first contact the breeder and second talk with the SCH trainer.


We have discussed it with the trainer. He is heading out to Italy in a few days and will be competing there. She has mentioned the local bark to him and he wasn't against it. He also offered for us to leave Zeus with him for two weeks so he could work more with him and get him to stop biting. 

The thing about the biting is that it happens out of nowhere. He'll sit there and our daughter will be playing and all of a sudden he'll nip at her leg. Tears etc of course follow. Since I am not home, I am getting all of this second hand, so I'm trying not to draw too many conclusions.

Last but not least, the last thing I want is a Golden Retriever. I want a GSD. I work around them for a living and the list is long on why I love the breed.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> ...


Jason, right on. I don't want a Golden in a GS body.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

DorianGray,

I think you are on the right track to listen to you own instincts about your Zeus. 

The problems that you are having with Zeus are just normal, but-head, strong working dog PUPPY behaviour. As other have said, training (which you are doing), excercise (which you are doing) and maturity (which you will have to wait for) will all help in getting him past that stage. 

For a dog like Zeus, I would AVOID like the PLAGUE any doggy boot camp where you send the dog away and they train the dog for you. You and your wife need to stay involved in his life, show him constant fair leadership (which I am sure you both are doing), and work on building a relationship with him. Sending him away will work against you in this situation. You will have no control over how he is trained, what methods they use, and it may harm your relationship. Plus, he is still just a baby. Sure, he has a grown up body, and grown up teeth, and almost grown up strenght, but his mental development is that of a small child, and positve, nurturing environment with clear boundries and rules is what he needs - not a reform school. The doggy boot camp may have helped the person who had no clue what she was doing, but you have a clue. Being on this board and posting your concerns and questions shows that you are more aware than your "average" dog owner.

With high-drive working dogs, accidental and play bites are a given. Yes it hurts. Yes it may bleed. But the dog ins't "bad" nor aggressive, just being a crazy butt-head energetic dog. I agree with the others, you best bet is to stay with the SchH trainer and have him show you and your wife HOW to play with Zeus in a way that will teach him self-control, but without squashing the joy and spirit out of him. And you know your dog best. This trainer may have done wonders with his dogs, but remember that Zeus is YOUR dog, and if he wants you to do something that doesn't sit well with you, don't be afraid to say no. 

Schutzhund is also about obedience and tracking - so more brain games for Zeus to help him behave. and find outlets for his mental energies. Also, the protection phase can really help in teaching dogs how to focus and express their drives in a positive, disciplined and productive manner (if taught properly, of course). 

Your first goal if you want to continue with Schutzhund is the BH, which is Obedience and a temperament test - by that time, you should have a more mature dog, and have a clearer picture of who he is, and if this Schutzhund thing is something you want to continue on with. It certainly won't do any harm, other than maybe a few accidental bites from an overly exhuberant, HAPPY dog, doing work that he loves!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Just read the part about Zeus nipping at your daughter - as a seven month old puppy, this is how he plays, this is excitment and or wanting to get your daughter engaged in playing with him. 

This may just be something he needs to outgrow - (or I could be totally wrong, others may have some insight!) in the meanwhile, I would use a lot of management and supervision, and keep interactions short and controled.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

Lucia,

You're seeing what I'm trying to describe here! My wife and I both know that he's a kid and we'd never consider sending him to a boot camp for dogs, mainly because we don't think anything is wrong with him and second because I don't believe in doing that. 

The facility has a two week off leash course that we were thinking about signing him up for, but after the lady told my wife to get him neutered I changed my opinion on that place being a possibility. Though she owns a GSD, I don't like what I'm hearing. 

We were just wondering if it is a good idea (regardless of ambition to actually compete) to continue ScH type training. Apparently it is, which is reassuring.

So yeah, drinking water out of a firehose. We just want to make sure he gets the best shot at being a good dog. The fact that he's a butthead is kind of endearing to me....we have things in common!

Thanks for all the replies.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Dorian,

What part of NorCal are you? Are you close enough to get to the club on the weekends (Mrs?). 

You can PM his trainer to me,if OK. There is an excellent trainer that also does helper work at the club, but does normal training. I would trust him with any of my dogs _ Joel Monroe.

Definitely call Randy and talk to her.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

Sue,

Since I'm currently oconus it's not that easy for me to call Randy. My better half has talked to her about how things are going and the trainer goes to Randy's place on a regular basis with his own dogs.

The idea here is to get as many opinions as possible. I'll of course run what I hear by her, but I like to get differing viewpoints out there as long as they're intelligently articulated and presented.

Location-wise, we live right outside of Sacramento.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86Dorian,
> 
> What part of NorCal are you? Are you close enough to get to the club on the weekends (Mrs?).
> 
> ...


Sue,

Your PM box is full.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Schutzhund is a sport and a good way to train, but I don't think it's the_ only _way to have a well behaved companion GSD. 

I'm not active in the sport and never have been but have had wonderful family dogs.

That said, obedience training and exercise - both mental and physical - is a must!

Consistency is the key.

Don't leave your child with your dog without your or your wife there to watch. Not assuming you do, but if you're busy or involved and can't really observe the interaction, crate the pup.

When you are all together watch carefully for what triggers the pup. Is the nipping when they're both on the floor together, when you child is making some exciting noise or dancing around? Children have movements that are exciting to puppies. Simply watching tv together if your child is absently swinging a leg or tapping a toe?

Nipping is a way of eliciting attention -- pups are kids too, and when they want attention they don't care if it's not pleasing, just as long as it gets attention.

I think your puppy sounds like a normal 7 month old GSD - can be a bit of a trying time when they're such big babies.

Good luck and kudos for all the work your putting in with this dog. I'm sure it will pay off. Some pups slower to mature and calm down than others... but 7 months is still very young.


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## SunahF (Aug 3, 2009)

Wow, thank you everyone for all of the wonderful advice you've given. Thought I'd chime in... I'm Zeus' mommy. He's getting SO much better with our daughter. I absolutely always supervise when they are in the same room. He's done both, nips when she's moved quickly (showing me her new dance move) and when simply she was walking in front of him entering the house -he got her by her shirt. If it does happen, it's been mostly like what Anne said, sudden moves.

Randy did warn me that he's going to be a real butt head for a while..and boy was she right! 

He gets lots of socializing, exercise and training, and the more I read about neutering, the more I am leaning toward leaving him intact and just be diligent with training.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think at some point you would have to get it into his little head that your daughter (or any member of the family) is OFF LIMIT. Doesn't matter if she is dancing up a storm, he cannot come up to her like that. I don't know what kind of dog he is, but with mine there are corrections ("hey, man, that's not cool") and then there are the "Dude, I'm not joking" corrections. 

Now my boy is a soft one so that's usually no more than a really really loud "NO" and a hard stare from me, sometimes accompany by me taking a few steps towards him to make him yield his space to me. How you admininster that depends on the dog so a more experienced person/trainer perhaps can help there.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

SunahF,

So happy to see this great update from you!

I saw your wonderful boy several times with Randy, and I adore him! Congratulations!

Puppihood is challenging : ) but then as the dog is growing, what a joy it is to see them maturing and coming into their own!

Xargos is now 11.5 months and a different dog from when he was 7 months : )

All the best and look forward to further updates!

Tanya


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## SunahF (Aug 3, 2009)

Thank you Jason and Tanya.... I just got off the phone with the ScH competitor that is helping me train weekly with Zeus. Told me that I need to work on my "hard" corrections with him when he goes after my daughter. He's a pretty good boy all around, except with the nipping and biting. I am Really looking forward to getting through this puppy phase, it's so hard and I will cling onto those words that he will be a different dog from when he was 7 months!... 

Sunah


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Just remember, therewill be only a few months. When your daughter becomes a teenager it will be several years... and Zeus won't ask for money and the car keys


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Sunah and Dorian,

Cleaned out the PMs!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I am reletively new to GSDs also. This is our second male shepherd and I can tell you that neutering had little to no effect on their temperment. Gator was neutered at 9 mo and Bison at 30 mo. Bison has a much more masculine look than Gator did. That is the only difference we saw.

We too have experienced the butt head phases with Bison. There have been about 5 in his 3.5 year life. It is like he just wakes up in the morning and says "hey, I think I am going to be the boss now". Just stay consistent with the training. NILIF really worked well for us.

We just started SchH with him one month ago and I agree with the earlier post. Regular trainers don't know how to deal with a high drive working dog.


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