# extremely civil/ideas for prey??



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

theres a 15 month old at my club that is extremely civil. solid dog with good nerves. just agitating him with a bite pillow/whip and he is out for blood. not equipment oriented at all. he is all about the man. when playing with his owner he's all prey. good grip and calm. decoy tries to play with him and you can tell by how he bites that he is in defense.

idea to level him out? he has never done bite work. this was his second session but it was an eye opener. just waggle the tug in front of him and agitate and he will get him so worked up he's looking right past the tug and straight to the helper. he actually slipped his collar, charged and went straight for the helper for a bite. 

seems like he has a hard time figuring out if the decoy is a threat or playing a game. decoy so much as postures and he chooses threat. basically how to teach the dog that its a game? the dog will bite the pillow and spit it out and attention right back on decoy,


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't think it can be done - hope I am wrong. I recently spoke to someone who did work as decoy for his friend's dog. The dog did the same thing -went past the pillow right for his throat where the opening in the suit was. His friend thought he dog was too excited - next session the dog went for the decoy's knee then up to the throat.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

maybe quit agitating him with bite pillow and whip and start further out doing some zigzags?
Does the handler have good obedience on him? I'd step up the control, let the dog mature some.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is very hard to give advice without seeing the dog and the work. It may be the dog does not have the right stuff or it may be that the work being done is totally wrong for the dog. I have seen dogs that work more out of defense/aggression successfully worked, but it requires a helper that knows what they are doing.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Control is good. Dog has no problem focused heeling around strangers and other dogs. Dog even let's decoy walk him out of owners sight with no problem. 

Just seems like his prey to defense switch is extremely fast. Not sure if it can be changed or if this dog is too much liability for sport.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

I would go back to basic tug play put on the sleeve and work the dog in prey drive teach him it's a game" the rules of the game" how fun the game can be. He can be a p.p.d. later lol Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Just wanted to say when I said To teach the game" let the helper be the handler the handler becomes the helper no stress on dog teach the game win the sleeve all prey drive" the game. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

lhczth said:


> It is very hard to give advice without seeing the dog and the work. It may be the dog does not have the right stuff or it may be that the work being done is totally wrong for the dog. I have seen dogs that work more out of defense/aggression successfully worked, but it requires a helper that knows what they are doing.


I had a dog years ago who was all defense on the field. On his home turf, he had intense prey, but once he was out of his comfort zone, he was 100% defense, all the time. I was surprised the helper trusted him on the long bite.

Eventually, I took him out of the sport. Defense drive is stressful for the dog & he wasn't getting the relief of any prey/play. And the liability issues.

My original intent had been to build his confidence & see if we could balance him, as well as teach him self control.

Amazing how many people thought he was just great & wanted to buy this nervy dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I know I should not even comment, because I really do not have the experience to speak with authority on this subject. All I have is two very nicely balanced dogs so no first hand experience. However, in the past three years of active participation in schutzhund I have observed many dogs that seamed to be all defense. It is my opinion that they should not be in the sport. The ones I have observed have not had the mental clarity to ever really understand what was being asked of them and none of them ever made it past the very early stages of drive and bite development. I did watch one guy who took his female all the way to trial. I knew the dog would not pass but the owner was ambitious. She would not go into the blind for the Hold and bark. I really think the dogs weak nerves will not allow it to think clear about the task being asked of it. I think a dog has to be able to get "it" mentally. During training a dog has to be able to make leaps in logic. You should see the light bulb go on at some point.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A dog can appear to be very defensive with the wrong work. A dog that has more defense or even aggression in comparison to its prey requires different work than a dog that is mostly prey. They don't look at SchH as a game (which it never was meant to be), but as a fight with a real opponent. Protection work involves some stress. That is why it is/was a test. Anyhow the helpers with the skills to work anything but crazy prey monsters, are getting few and far between (and they were not that common to begin with).


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Like Lisa said, hard to tell without seeing the dog. Just because a dog isn’t playing doesn’t mean it is not a dog for SchH. It would depend what else is going on with him however.
The answer is what we used to do when more dogs were coming out to clubs who were also not playing. Channeling the aggression into prey work. That requires some skill and effort....sometimes alot of running which people seem less willing to do nowadays.

Some common mistakes with dogs like this are the following:

1)The helper can’t get a reaction, so they continue to push the “defense” button in the dog but do nothing with the resulting aggression........ If I had a penny for every time I have seen this......

2)The helper works too close to the dog.

3) The helper says he is doing prey work but has no understanding of what certain body language is saying to the dog.

4) The helper tries to simply play with the dog, trying not to touch the aggression at all. That doesn’t work, you must touch it and then channel it into prey. That does not mean the dog will become sleeve happy but it will help to make the dog sleeve sure.
This normally means more prey attractions with the sleeve, i.e. holding it more away from the body, moving it at the same time the dog is barking, running and pumping the sleeve at the same time, so it is not all about the person. It also doesn’t mean the helper completely turns off his/her presence. It’s a case of turning it up and down as required to show the dog submission.
The helper can also pop the whip, (on the side away from the dog), while he runs and pumps the sleeve, depending on the dog’s reaction to the whip. The mistake I see so often is how and where the whip is used and what they do with the sleeve while they are popping it. The whip is to enhance prey drive. If the helper stands facing the dog, holds the sleeve at his side and just pops the whip....and yes people do this......the whip arm becomes the attraction, the dog views the movement as threatening and the downward cycle continues. Sometimes the helper should just leave the whip on the sideline for a while.

The helper cannot be lazy with a dog like this. I’ve seen so many of these kinds of dogs, who could have been quite good, destroyed by what I just said. I have also seen others who are “defensive” because they don’t have what it takes to do protection.

The best dog I ever owned or trained in SchH did not view the helper as a friend, or a “sparing partner”. He was dead serious. If the dog has the rest, i.e. nerves etc, you won’t find a better dog to do “protection” with....IF you know how to train that dog. The one I am talking about consistently V'ed in protection under some very tough judges. Training can’t take the place of who the dog is and the more serious dogs, (again, if they have they have the nerves etc), are always the more impressive ones.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

lhczth said:


> A dog can appear to be very defensive with the wrong work. A dog that has more defense or even aggression in comparison to its prey requires different work than a dog that is mostly prey. They don't look at SchH as a game (which it never was meant to be), but as a fight with a real opponent. Protection work involves some stress. That is why it is/was a test. Anyhow the helpers with the skills to work anything but crazy prey monsters, are getting few and far between (and they were not that common to begin with).


I do wonder whether I could have titled my all defense dog if we'd ever been able to work with a helper who could get prey out of him. Only one ever could. (Anne).

His obedience was fine, he could track. 

Or was he just not cut out for sport? He definitely was a liability off the field. Sometimes he was just fine, other times, he would lunge for real, especially at kids. That's the part that made me think he was just crazy.

He did sharpen my reflexes.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

lhczth said:


> A dog can appear to be very defensive with the wrong work. A dog that has more defense or even aggression in comparison to its prey requires different work than a dog that is mostly prey. They don't look at SchH as a game (which it never was meant to be), but as a fight with a real opponent. Protection work involves some stress. That is why it is/was a test. Anyhow the helpers with the skills to work anything but crazy prey monsters, are getting few and far between (and they were not that common to begin with).


I agree with your point about the decoy and unfortunately there isn't anyone at our club experienced enough with the old school style. All the dogs at the clubs are prey backed up by defense. I feel this dog is defense backed up by prey. 

It could just be we pushed the dog too hard too fast. But it was just a bite pillow teaching grip and targeting. He bite the pillow and got to parade around just like any other dog. But when he slipped his collar his intent was biting the man and not the pillow.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

simba405 said:


> I agree with your point about the decoy and unfortunately there isn't anyone at our club experienced enough with the old school style. All the dogs at the clubs are prey backed up by defense. I feel this dog is defense backed up by prey.
> 
> It could just be we pushed the dog too hard too fast. But it was just a bite pillow teaching grip and targeting. He bite the pillow and got to parade around just like any other dog. But when he slipped his collar his intent was biting the man and not the pillow.


I had a heart stopping moment when my all defense dog slipped his collar. Fortunately, he went for the sleeve. His grip was hard.

I call him nervy because weird noises at home spooked him, I don't remember how he reacted to the gunshots, but he loved coming to the field.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> He bite the pillow and got to parade around just like any other dog. But when he slipped his collar his intent was biting the man and not the pillow.


 If there was a SchH time machine we could all travel back in, you guys would be shocked at the dogs we were working.
I can't tell you how many times I was bitten when I worked dogs at a very large club in LA and elsewhere. That was normal, and the pants back then had more padding. Most of the time it was due to poor handling skills.....back then, you either got better at holding your dog, or you were asked to leave.....


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I do wonder whether I could have titled my all defense dog if we'd ever been able to work with a helper who could get prey out of him. Only one ever could. (Anne).


 Me? I have no recollection of this dog. Sounds like he should not have been doing SchH.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Vandal said:


> Me? I have no recollection of this dog. Sounds like he should not have been doing SchH.


Uh huh. At a seminar. I didn't know enough back then to realize he shouldn't have been in the sport.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

simba405 said:


> theres a 15 month old at my club that is extremely civil. solid dog with good nerves. just agitating him with a bite pillow/whip and he is out for blood. not equipment oriented at all. he is all about the man. when playing with his owner he's all prey. good grip and calm. decoy tries to play with him and you can tell by how he bites that he is in defense.
> 
> idea to level him out? he has never done bite work. this was his second session but it was an eye opener. just waggle the tug in front of him and agitate and he will get him so worked up he's looking right past the tug and straight to the helper. he actually slipped his collar, charged and went straight for the helper for a bite.
> 
> seems like he has a hard time figuring out if the decoy is a threat or playing a game. decoy so much as postures and he chooses threat. basically how to teach the dog that its a game? the dog will bite the pillow and spit it out and attention right back on decoy,


A good/experienced decoy can change drive states with very subtle motions (even eyes play a part) for most dogs, this experience takes many years, so if decoy is new (just a few years experience) then hard battle to fight. Your description of the grip change is pretty telling about decoy not able to manage the drive state. May also be that the dog may be more suited to PPD work as opposed to Schutzhund.


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