# Question on front legs during bitework`



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I was training yesterday with LE and obviously bitework is a part of it. They were working a dog who had been started in schutzhund and were working on untraining the dogs relunctance to wrap its frong legs around the subject. He said the sport dogs are trained to keep their legs off?

Just curious if so then why vs for police service work.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Never heard of that? Some dogs will use their front legs to try and control the helper, some to push against the helper for more leverage, others don't - never seen or heard about discouraging the use of the front legs on a helper. 

If anything, I've been told that a dog that uses his/her front legs like that (wrapping or pushing) is showing good fight drive, trying to control the helper for their own advantage. I've never seen it discouraged.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I have seen helpers whip near the legs when the dog tries to wrap its legs around. I don't know enough about whether they were encouraging or discouraging the behavior by doing so but I have seen it so there is *some* reaction from *some* helpers to the dog using its feet. 

Maybe other people or helpers can chime in on this. What Castlemaid said did make sense to me though in theory - but I don't know enough for my opinion to count


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

A lot of helpers will discourage this--in a trial, it is only a problem if the dog tries to "grapple" after an out--that will cause problems. 

As far as helpers who stop dogs from doing it during a bite, there are several possible reasons why the helper seeks to stop it--for some dogs, if they are grappling, they start mouthing on or moving the bite or not biting as hard. Even in police work (especially in police work?) a moving bite is bad--on a suspect, it means more injuries, more damage, and more liability concerns or concerns of inappropriate use of force.

Some dogs will get in an unclear headspace if they are grappling--then they may lose their obedience and refuse to out.

Other times, the helper doesn't like it bc it is hard to move, so they don't let the dog do it. The problem is, of course, that this discourages the dog from really *fighting* the helper. Again, this can be a points issue--if the dog isn't letting the helper move, it's harder to give the prescribed display to the judge and maybe the dog doesn't get full points.... I would hope that most people don't think this way--but some do.

Most of the time, decoys and judges think that a dog that is pulling behind the arm back behind the helper is avoiding the stick hits--so you can lose points on that if the judge decides the dog is trying to avoid the fight by pulling the decoy around.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't care, I used to, because I was told to, and heard all the reasons why you should "clear the dogs legs". But as with a lot of things experience gives you a differen outlook after time.

They can maul me all they like. and when it's time to out, it's time to back off. They all learn it and it's easy


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

crackem said:


> I don't care, I used to, because I was told to, and heard all the reasons why you should "clear the dogs legs". But as with a lot of things experience gives you a differen outlook after time.
> 
> They can maul me all they like. and when it's time to out, it's time to back off. They all learn it and it's easy


I am the same way. I like the dogs to fight. It makes it more fun for me. I don't care where there paws are during the bite or drill. I don't like catching there paws to the growing, but it happens. Once the dog is told to out however I want it off of me.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Wow, I hadn't heard of this either. Our trainer doesn't care which way they do it. With or without the legs. We have one dog that will wrap her legs around the helper, but when he starts whipping the air she tucks her legs up under her and to the side to avoid the whip, its fun to watch her. So would she gets point off for trying to avoid the whip?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think when a dog is doing a hold and bark, they should be clean, not touching the helper whatsoever. When it comes to bite and fight, then there is no reason the dog can't use his body, legs, feet to control the helper. I see so many dogs that tuck feet because of the whip, they are dancing bigtime. 
In a trial, there is no whip, so it shouldn't be an issue.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

They said it was the whip--that they whip the dog's legs and he starts tucking to avoid the whip even if one isn't there, but they want the dog to all out fight.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I know that sometimes I've seen the whip used on the front leg, not to discourage the fighting, but to amp up the dog and get it mad to get more intensity out of the fight. Some young dogs won't right away start pulling back on the sleeve once they get it, they might just hand on there, not sure what to do next, or pull back half-heartedly. Judicious use of the whip can make them good and mad, and I've seen it work miracles for dogs who where ready to move up to the next level of intensity and fight in their bite-work.

Sounds like a case of overusing the whip, or miss-using the whip. Maybe the people you trained with saw one Schutzhund trainer doing this, and generalized to all SchH training?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Some helpers also use the stick to keep the dogs feet off them.. So it's not only with the whip.. 

I've seen dogs who have their front feet so far tucked under them or way out to the side.. When your in the sport for any length of time you see it all and you really do start losing respect for some people..


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> I know that sometimes I've seen the whip used on the front leg, not to discourage the fighting, but to amp up the dog and get it mad to get more intensity out of the fight. Some young dogs won't right away start pulling back on the sleeve once they get it, they might just hand on there, not sure what to do next, or pull back half-heartedly. Judicious use of the whip can make them good and mad, and I've seen it work miracles for dogs who where ready to move up to the next level of intensity and fight in their bite-work.
> 
> Sounds like a case of overusing the whip, or miss-using the whip. Maybe the people you trained with saw one Schutzhund trainer doing this, and generalized to all SchH training?


The whip isn't always used, just to amp up like you suggested. The whip isn't used on all of the dogs. So I am not sure they are generalizing it per say?? Thank you everyone for answering my question, I did not know the whip wasn't used in competition. Guess I am always too busy watching the dogs work in the videos to really pay attention.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think it is pretty common to see helpers purposefully "sweeping" the dogs feet off during the bite. I have seen quite a few dogs where it was obvious by the way they hold on, and keep those front legs safely tucked in.
Personally, I have 2 rules for a helper before working my dog... 
No bopping him on the head as he is not a fieldmouse, and don't touch the feet.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No they were not generalizing just in reference to a specific dog who was relearning it was ok to use his front legs.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

jocoyn said:


> I was training yesterday with LE and obviously bitework is a part of it. They were working a dog who had been started in schutzhund and were working on untraining the dogs relunctance to wrap its frong legs around the subject. He said the sport dogs are trained to keep their legs off?
> 
> Just curious if so then why vs for police service work.


Hi Nancy,

I had this very same question years ago when I saw this being done on a few dogs that were being worked. I've actually seen this done quite a few times (not all at the same club). There are many varied thoughts out there as to why this behaviour is discouraged by some trainers/helpers. How much validity each has, I can't say LOL.

Some of which include: 

"Paws on" could potentially encourage chewy grips/re-gripping issues, particularly for those dogs with this issue (this was the rationale from one club) and/or could lead to increased "paws on" behaviour after the out/during the guarding phases (which = "bothering the helper" = point deduction). This was one club's rationale.

Dogs that are encouraged to use "paws on" leads to increased legging behaviour during other exercises, which can potentially lead to dogs' legs getting tangled with the helper's leg, thus leading to injury (for both dog & helper eg tripping) in exercises such as the escape (this was the rationale from one club helper)

A dog with "paws on" may have a slower out and/or this behaviour can lead to slower outs (have read this somewhere but don't recall where).

Overly "pushy" dogs might be discouraged from paws on behaviours since "legs-on helper action"  might increase the dogs' tenacity to not be willing to dis-engage from the fight (will to dominate and being encouraged to dominate using body rather than just grip). (Eg: think about muzzle work and how the dog uses his or her whole body/legs to fight). In other words, an overly pushy dog who perhaps like the fight a bit *too much* might be discouraged from being extra "pushy" with the helper. 

"Paws on" may be a display of avoidance/insecurity. I've both heard this and read it (can't remember for the life of me where now as this was a few years ago). Rationale wise if I recall correctly I think there was some thought that it gave the dog a greater sense of "security" to have paws on something solid when on the grip ? 

There are others as well I'm sure, but it seems that these are a couple of the more common ones that I could recall. Some of which I've heard about in face to face discussions, some of which I've read about on other forums and/or books.

I think for some dogs, there is maybe some merrit to discouraging paws on the helper for one reason or another. However, as we know, just like with all training, what fits for one dog doesn't necessarily fit or is appropriate for another .


Overall it does seem to be a more common practice in SchH to train paws off than other venues involving protection based work (at least this is what I surmise from my discussions and readings). I think sport versus LE, it comes down to how to avoid the least point losses  (eg legs on may encourage slower outs etc).


Just thought I would respond since it had piqued my interest too when I first saw it being done.


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