# Test that should be done prior to breeding?



## VaBeachFamily

OK, so I am not planning to breed at this moment, it is way too early, and Cullen is too young, not titled, etc. I did, though, think this would be the best place for this question since breeders are more in tune with what is required. Cullen will be 2 in December, and I will be starting all of his "testing". We are planning to do Hip and Elbow ( thinking we should go with OFA AND Pennhip?), but I also heard that the best 'breeders' do a certain eye test, and other genetic tests. I would love to get more info on these things so that I can have everything done on him, mostly just because if there ever was an idea of breeding, it should be, but also because I just think I should take all precautions regardless. So, can anyone help me with the ideal lists? Also, what do these things run on an average as far as price? ( i haven't priced them, but they WILL get done anyhow, but I do want to have a plan for finances). Thanks


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## BlackthornGSD

In some breeds it's important to do CERF and the dna test for, I think, PRA. CERF only certifies that the eyes are OK at the time of exam. In my GSDs, I've never had any eye problems, so I don't do the testing. If I had ever had any issues, it might be worth going ahead and testing.

In dobermans, it's common to do heart testing--but it doesn't seem to be an issues in GSDs.

There is now a DNA test for the presence of the gene for DM, and that is worth doing--it's around $50 a dog; maybe more through OFA.

Definitely test hips and elbows. Some people do an xray of the spine too--but usually that's done when importing a dog for competition.

In showlines, you might want to consider testing for vonWillebrand's--it's around, but not common.

Another DNA test that might want to do is for the MDR-1 gene--I am tempted to do that just for the knowledge--but it's new and seldom done, so it's not like you can find breeding partners who have been tested. 

You should test for brucellosis shortly before breeding.


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## VaBeachFamily

Christine - [email protected] I knew there was the eye testing, a friend of mine that breeds Czech Vlcaks does it before breeding EVERY time. The DM I think was another I heard.. will have to look into that, and the MDR is I believe the other one. I couldn't remember any of them though What does it normally run altogether for the hips and elbows to be xrayed? I guess I can find out the OFA and Pennhip fees online!


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## VaBeachFamily

Oh... also.... Do you prefer Pennhip or OFA, or should I do both? Again, my breeder friend said that although OFA is used so often, she only uses PennHip, as they score different, and instead of just three or four answers, you get numbers to evaluate, this will be my first time getting into it though, so I am pretty clueless!


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## BlackthornGSD

I prefer OFA. PennHip is meant to be a tool--it gives you a coefficient and you have to decide for yourself what level of coefficient is acceptable. It's a lot harder to explain this to puppy buyers and it will fail dogs that OFA will pass. 

So you could say it is a harder test to pass--but I am not convinced that less than ideal PennHip indicates a dog that will have problems with HD at a mature age. 

Another way to look at it is that OFA shows what the hips look like at that moment--it doesn't predict the future. PennHip looks at the hips at that moment and then also predicts the future based on the amount of laxity. So, say you are looking at the hips of a 6 month old and you see perfectly clean joints with some laxity--PennHip scores the dog poorly; OFA gives the dog a Good prelim. Which do you place more value in? Do you wash that dog out right then or do you re-xray in another year?

Now, say you are looking at the hips of a 3 year old and they are beautifully formed and get OFA Excellent; you do PennHip at the same time and they give you a bad coefficient, predicting that the hips will degenerate in the future. Which do you place more trust in?


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## VomBlack

Just as a side question: did Cullen's overbite end up correcting itself? if not that may be something you may want to consider, though truthfully i'm not sure how big of a breeding issue that is, not being a breeder or anything.

Or was this a different dog? I don't remember. :S


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## VaBeachFamily

Yes, Cullen does have an overbite... It doesn't seem to be as bad as it was, but it is still existent. It hasn't caused any problems at all, I think I was just over-worrying. 

I know it is not desireable, but as I stated, this isn't just a question stated so that I can breed him ( I was requested to stud him on a few occasions, but they were all denied, part because of his age/not having titles and health screenings, part because I am not sure even with all that if it would be beneficial). The vet did though say that by the look of the growth, that he is 90% sure this is not hereditary, and that it should not be an issue, that it just keeps me from being able to show him. Again, I am mostly asking because I just want to do as I should for him as far as screenings/xrays/etc go.


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## Xeph

Hips Elbows and DM test at the very least, IMO

PennHip is more expensive than OFA. They HAVE to put the dog out for it, no two ways about it. Because of the way the dog must be manipulated for the films, they cannot be awake.

Price varies depending on location. When I had Strauss's hips and elbows done (like 5 years ago) his hips, elbows, the cost of the OFA fee, and the cost for his light sedation was under $200.

Mirada cost me $200 (twice) for prelims, and no sedation was used.

I know PennHip can fail a good dog that OFA would pass, but I've also seen scores where a dog was OFA fair, and his PennHip scores were considered excellent (.25 and .31).


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## Tbarrios333

Don't forget the temperament and working ability tests 
Also, if someone was trying to get you to stud him while still young, it could mean that they themselves are not a reputable breeder (unless they were willing to wait until your dog is proven). Just because your dog is breed worthy doesn't mean the bitch is, so I would also be selective about who you let him impregnate


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## VaBeachFamily

Tahiry - Yes ( temperment and working ability). I plan on trying for the CGC soon, and as far as working, we are tracking until we decide which way to go, but were invited to join the Search and Rescue team for the state in training and certification after they saw him work randomly at a field I chose that they were in by chance! I personally believe that a certified S&R dog shows just as much work ethic as a Schutzhund or herding dog, but believe me, we won't stop there, whether it be rally, agility, obedience, tracking, herding instinct, herding, etc... we will continue to let Cullen do whatever he is enjoying and does well at! He herds ducks for the school ( and geese mainly) and he has the whole concept down, I am just not educated enough to teach him commands and behaviors, he just naturally herds them around to the front where they want them!
Also, the first person who wanted him as a stud liked his bloodlines, and him, but did NOT realize that even though we participate in sport training, that he is not titled OR of age.. and the last one got a tongue lashing lecture from me about how I will require than any testing I do at a minimum I expect that the others do the same, and that there needs to be some sort of work/show title or something of the matter, then I proceeded to tell them that I wasn't even planning on breeding him or studding him, but if I did, they now know what I would expect. No matter the dog, I feel if I put my name and my dog's name on a litter, I should be proud of that, and that would mean a lot!


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## Tbarrios333

Wish you the best!


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## selzer

I do OFA hips and elbows and check for vWd. 

With Jenna and Babs I x-rayed spines too.

I checked Heidi, Whit, and Tori for Cardiac and Thyroid (OFA) as well. 

Now I am thinking DM would be good, would like to do Cardiac and Thyroid with Joy as well. So far I have not CERF tested. 

For breeding, Brucellosis a must, and I always have a vaginal culture done on my bitches to ensure there are not an overage of bacteria, microplasma, etc there. These tests are done just prior to breeding and not a one-time deal. 

Good luck. 

Oh costs? Well, they quoted me twelve hundred and something for Heidi, Whitney, and Tori, but charged around 1800. I cried and moaned, and argued, and weedled and brought up my estimate, and we whittled it down to less than $1400. 

(I thought my friend would never want to go there with me again, but she seemed a bit proud of me. She brought only one dog, and I think she paid nearly six hundred.)

Joy turns two at the end of this month, so this is coming up again. Times being what they are, and not intending to breed Milla and Ninja, nor their sire again, and probably their dam again, I did not get them checked, though I want to, and if something should happen, like a good job within the next few months, I might do them just for the knowledge.


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## lhczth

Just an FYI, depending on the severity of the overbite it could be a disqualifying fault and then your dog should not be bred. If this is a German dog I would have a Körmeister look at his bite.


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## Xeph

^^ What Lisa said. In AKC any overbite is a DQ


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## selzer

Xeph said:


> ^^ What Lisa said. In AKC any overbite is a DQ



Actually this if from the AKC standard on the AKC site:

*Disqualifications*
_Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black. 
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs. 
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge. 
_



Undershot is much worse than an over bite.


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## Xeph

Ah crap >.< I was thinking of the wrong thing *Sighs* Happens sometimes.

Sorry, the overshot jaw is *undesirable*


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## VaBeachFamily

Yes, we are part of the local GSD club, and they said that they believe he could still show, he has everything else going for him, and they think that it may be 'undesireable' but that it wouldn't take much away unless we were looking for Wesminster style, but I don't do any showing, As when we went to a few shows, though everyone GUSHES over him, he isn't the typical GSD you see win in the AKC ring... so to avoid the overtraining and heartbreak, we decided we were more into the performance, and stick with that. His temperment in my opinion is awesome. We are of course still in the process of training to tighten up his obedience as you can see from my CGC post, but he knows when to be ' threatening' and when to just cuddle with the kids, pull out the tracking equipment or the sleeve or whip and he is all over it, but put on his at home gear, and he goes into house dog mode. Sometimes wish some of you could meet him! lol, I guess all owners think their dogs are the best though, but as I said, I am more just trying to get done what is needed whather we ever bred or not, just because it would be nice to know!


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## Chris Wild

The problem to stud ownership is you're breeding ability is determined by people with quality bitches wanting to breed to the dog. Even if all titles and show ratings are in place and health tests are in place, an overbite would cause a lot of bitch owners not to consider him unless his pedigree is so outstanding and unique that they couldn't get the same genetics elsewhere in a package without the overbite. Just something to be aware of.

As far as health testing for breeding, OFA hips ane elbows are minimum. We've also recently added OFA DM to that list of requirements on our own breeding dogs. I also think the spine should be x-rayed. Back problems are becoming much more prevalent in the breed and when present can have a much greater impact on working ability and quality of life than most hip or elbow problems. IMO looking for these in breeding stock, not just competition dogs, is important. While OFA doesn't have a spine database for a fee they will look at spinal x-rays and send a report with their findings. Or a good radiologist can look at them too.

Others that are good to do, but more optional in my mind since incidence of problems in this breed isn't very significant are OFA cardiac and thyroid, CERF, and vWD. Nice to have these tests, but not crucial unless there is a reason to suspect problems in those areas in the lines. I'd put the new MDR1 test in the same optional category.


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## carmspack

I think the test should be on the owner/breeder --- what do you know .
If you don't know enough do you at least have a good mentor.

Is this pedigree correct ? Cullen Vom Sandstränden - German Shepherd Dog
how did Cullen's sire Bax go under the old DDR kennel name of vom haus Iris?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

apologies in advance -- realistic look on things , I am super happy that Cullen is your ideal family member , however if the pedigree is correct I don't see that he would appeal to serious show line breeders , and he would not appeal to working line breeders . 
I did have a look at the handsome boy . It is not so much that his neck his huge as in that his neck is very "wet" lots of loose skin . 
Also the fact that his dam was 99 pounds and his sire 120 pounds would be offputting to anyone trying hard to stay within the standard.
Be on guard for fringy type breeders that want to produce beyond standard size --.
If he isn't the typical dog that could win in AKC shows then he can't win -- so that eliminates interest from AKC (serious) breeders. What is the overtraining and heartbreak that you are talking about.

Not every dog should or needs to be bred . Why not just enjoy this wonderful family pet to the max?

as I said apologies --- 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## VaBeachFamily

Carmen... Again, as I said, I am not looking for a breeder, I bought him solely as a pet some to do sport with. Heartbreaking was, that I wanted to Dabble in show, but decided it would be harder to not be able to and keep putting heart into it, and know that it just isn't for him. I also don't work him to death, but he enjoys having a job, he enjoys doing new things, and just hiking and playing frisbee aren't enough for him, so I do everything i can to keep him busy because that is what he likes. He doesn't want to be outside unless I am there, yet I can play tug, frisbee, fetch, train for hours, come in, and he stares at the backpack and the leash, stares at the door, runs back and forth, always on the go ( until I sit, and then he will come lay by my feet because he knows I am done). Is it so hard to believe that I would just want to know the testing for my own interest and well being? I get my son every checkup, test, etc that is rec. so why not my fur kid? Just asking why it seems to be a lecture on breeding when I have made it so clear that even though I have been ASKED... if I was intending to do it, I would have answered yes to the last few people and just let him hump any dog in town, correct? Just saying, lay off of me, as I did nothing in my eyes that called for being ravaged.


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## VaBeachFamily

Oh, and also, I will shoot an email to the breeder of my dogs father and ask about the kennel name and I will let you know when I find out...


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## carmspack

when the headline is "tests that should be done before breeding?" provides the basis for answers regarding breeding .

any dog used for breeding , showing , training , pups sold for a specific function will always be viewed with a critical eye , an evaluation . 

Comments no more "critical" then someone asking about the overbite/underbite.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSD07

Breeding section, breeding question, then getting upset about responses the breeders provide  If it's just about the tests then why not to ask the question in the Health section?


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## VaBeachFamily

Carmen and Oksana... I apologize, I just thought that breeders would check this posting area more often, and that they would be the best ones to know tests and things to look out for that not everyone would. I am not UPSET that breeders are talking, but two full pages of nice responses to what I asked, and then one person decides to completely ambush me out of nowhere. I get it, don't breed without quality, but I also think that HAD I been thinking about breeding, I should at LEAST have been given KUDOS for trying to do more than 90% of litter throwers! Even as a pet, I would never had gotten Cullen if I had not been given the chance to talk to and meet owners/previous littermates, and had not been given OFA test scores on his parents, so I do understand the general issues, but I also felt like, that is where most owners stop, and again, I think the breeders who frequent this area of the board most frequently would have the best advice for me. Whether I bred him or not is entirely up to me, but there is no plan for that at all. We know our female will be going into heat before too long, so we even have Central AC/Heat ran to the garage on the other end of the house so that we can separate them in comfort, and we will NOT be making the mistake of a lot of uneducated and irresponsible owners, there will not be a " OMG my dog accidentally got pregnant" posts from me. No worries, I just will never understand why some people get their rocks off my insulting and degrading people when all they are doing is trying to get good, positive advice.


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## VaBeachFamily

Any, anyhow, Carmen, all I can see on your site is your " new females". So, are every one of your breeding stock titled, or do they just have good bloodlines? I am not trying to be a twit, but just curious how one person can be so critical of someone that is NOT breeding. I have seen an aweful lot of " reputable" breeders over the last few years, many of which have dogs that may look nice, have good hips, have NO titles, and sell them for the price of some of the top dogs I have seen.


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## Lakl

VaBeachFamily said:


> Any, anyhow, Carmen, all I can see on your site is your " new females". So, are every one of your breeding stock titled, or do they just have good bloodlines? I am not trying to be a twit, but just curious how one person can be so critical of someone that is NOT breeding. I have seen an aweful lot of " reputable" breeders over the last few years, many of which have dogs that may look nice, have good hips, have NO titles, and sell them for the price of some of the top dogs I have seen.


Kristi,
From personal knowledge, Carmen is one of the best people you can talk to to learn about breeding, the lines, and pretty much anything you want to know about the breed or your dog's lineage. I would not take it personal. She is and has always been a "give it to you straight" type person. Her wealth of knowledge about the breed goes FAR over my head, and I sometimes feel like I'm asking an astrophysicist (sp?)about the laws of science, because she really knows her stuff, but what you can learn from her and others like her on this board are invaluable. She won't sugar coat anything for you, but it doesn't necessarily mean she's being critical. JMO.


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## carmspack

well I guess I am the ambushee that you are talking about. I did not ambush. I am out in the open. 

you want information on any of my breeding stock and I will be able to take you back 4 or 5 generations (new stock excluded) and document their genetic value by what they have produced , litters where 3 or 4 males have gone in to service , not counted until they have certified, guide dogs that are counted because they have certified , not because I have donated them, Sch H dogs that have gone to Nationals , yet his brother has produced police service dogs , his ancestors back ward each generation has had many certified working police service dogs.

Much of what I do in NOT recognized by a title.

I am very discriminating , very critical of breeding stock, and what it produces. I did purchase a female , did a good litter -- but the dam and all her progeny were given to a person who liked that "type" but I did not. Why? because the animals were hyper active without focus . I held on to this entire litter till they were 9 months of age. I am willing and able to do that work to really really know. I am very able to clean sweep , prune .

I can be critical when asked to examine a potential plan which you did .To do otherwise is an insult . I don't patronize . Your opening line said "Okay, so I am not planning to breed at this moment, it is way too early, and Cullen is too young, not titled , etc." 
By all indications that means that at some point you do want to breed this dog. So there are things you need to know. How good is the pedigree. Who will it appeal to , believe me , even with a really good male people don't beat a path to your doorway.

I have a problem with Cullen's sire being registered as Bax vom haus Iris. 

Cullen Vom Sandstränden - German Shepherd Dog . 

The sire of Bax is AKC , haus Iris is in Germany and would not be using an AKC dog .
People see the haus Iris and assume the lines are DDR , which they most definitely are not , NOT. This is a protected kennel name owned by the Seidler family in Germany. I know haus Iris , having used Ulf Iris , son of wonderful producing MIRA Iris , sister to very influential MENTOR, who I also have through Rex Iris . The Seidler's have always been DDR breeders , good working dogs lots of Police service dogs , especially in the U litter (Ulf's) . They continue to this day to breed in such a way to advance DDR genetics for yet another generation or more if able . 

My web page is being revamped by Linda Shaw . 
My web pages are to invoke interest so that you will contact me and then I will go in to the nuances and reasons and success and raison d'etre of each and every litter, personal attention , no limit to time . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

I have a problem with Cullen's sire being registered as Bax vom haus Iris. 

Cullen Vom Sandstränden - German Shepherd Dog . 

The sire of Bax is AKC , haus Iris is in Germany and would not be using an AKC dog .


On reading this I discover that the last sentence should have read , "The sire of Cullen, Bax, is AKC, ............ "

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa

VaBeachFamily said:


> OK, so I am not planning to breed at *this moment*, it is way too early, and Cullen is too young, not titled, etc. I did, though, think this would be the best place for this question since breeders are more in tune with *what is required*. ... *because if there ever was an idea of breeding*, it should be, but also because I just think I should take all precautions regardless.


You talked about breeding 3 times in your first post and are now saying you don't have intentions? 

Calm down for a few days and carefully listen to what Carmen and a few others are alluding to. 

Not a breeder, but what seems to be recommended 99% of the time is for you to get a foundation female, work her up the ranks, and then go from there. 

There are SO many studs out there with exceptional pedigrees and lot of titles that never get bred. If people are asking you to breed your dog do a very critical analysis as to who those people are and what their bitches are like. The guy down the street might like the looks of Cullen too...but does that mean you should throw him and his bitch in the mix to produced some kids?

I think the point most people are making is that studs are dime a dozen. While there is nothing wrong with having the aspirations to do everything right and work and title your dog that you shouldn't get your hopes up on breeding him.


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## GSD07

Justine, the OP already got a female. It's a speculation, but she may want to breed her dog to her own female down the road which will significantly simplify a lot of things in terms of proofs of dog's breed-worthiness.


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## VaBeachFamily

Thanks for all of the input. Yes, if I was to breed Cullen for any reason, I would want all of the health certs and everything that is needed ( who wouldn't), but I am kinda of new to the genetic diseases and such so I wanted to kinda get an opinion, because what's a few hundred bucks to KNOW he is OK in the long run, even for myself. 

Yes, I do have a female, but my female is not planning on being bred! She is, though, learning conformation, so we have NOT fixed her yet for that purpose. She was bought because my husband wanted a dog to do sport with, and Cullen had decided Dad is cool at home, but out on the field, he only listens to me, and if we continue to have them as inside pets, my personal experience proves that it is MUCH easier to have a male and female, though having to separate twice a year, but there is a lot less fighting. As I said, we have Central AC ran to the garage, a 'run' to put up and space for a crate, and her own door to the outside. 

As far as where the name comes from, again, I will ask the breeder when I call him at the end of the month, and I will let you know where that came from, could it possibly be a translation? Cullen's is a translation to something we wanted, and even though it really isn't something heard much of, I still didn't think to see if anyone else in the world used it?

I already know breeding is work, money, etc btw, and that's not something I could even justify, with running two businesses, kids, house, etc. Maybe I should have proof read my post so it looked less like it was for breeding purposes.


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## VaBeachFamily

Oh... and I did mention people asking about using Cullen as a Stud even in the future, all were turned down, and all were simply explained to how I felt about it. I wouldn't breed my dog because someone with a female likes the way he looks. Plus, I can honestly say that though I love my dog, his personality may not be suitible, his looks may not be what anyone wants, and I wouldn't intentionally pass him off to make a buck.


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## carmspack

I have a problem with Cullen's sire being registered as Bax vom haus Iris. 

Cullen Vom Sandstränden - German Shepherd Dog . 

The sire of Bax is AKC , haus Iris is in Germany and would not be using an AKC dog .
People see the haus Iris and assume the lines are DDR , which they most definitely are not , NOT. This is a protected kennel name owned by the Seidler family in Germany. I know haus Iris , having used Ulf Iris , son of wonderful producing MIRA Iris , sister to very influential MENTOR, who I also have through Rex Iris . The Seidler's have always been DDR breeders , good working dogs lots of Police service dogs , especially in the U litter (Ulf's) . They continue to this day to breed in such a way to advance DDR genetics for yet another generation or more if able . 



Well I did write the Seidler family who are the DDR breeders vom haus Iris , got a very quick and full reply from them .

There is NO Bax vom haus Iris in their records --- this is definitely NOT a pedigree that they would use . They are adamant that they use ONLY old DDR lines .

I already know that a forum member saw the name haus Iris and logically concluded that the ancestors were DDR -- very much not so though.

vom haus Iris was taken without consent .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LaRen616

So what does that exactly mean Carmen? That it isn't his true pedigree, so the people that bred him lied about his pedigree?


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## VaBeachFamily

OK Carmen, you have repeated yourself many times throughout this post, and we get it. You don't like the name. I could care less if it is the same Haus Iris, as I am not a fan at all of DDR lines, so that much better for me. Also, The parents of Bax are Mathausen and Urbecke, and I have gone that far back to find out infomation and spoken to the particular breeders/owners of those dogs, thought it was hard to translate perfectly, and everything points to the man that owns Cullen's father added his own name. Get off it, seriously. If someone else decided they wanted to translate Sandy Beaches into their dogs name in German, they would come up with what I have at some point, and OMG!!!!! They may end up with the same suffix as my dog! God forbid!


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## VaBeachFamily

Laren - no, his pedigree is correct, whomever named my dogs father used a name that apparently is a breeder in germany/german descent, and it is apparently an eartch shattering event! Whodathunkit


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## Chris Wild

Actually the name thing IS a big deal for a number of reasons. But it's really irrelevant to the topic at hand here. You're not the one who chose that name so nothing you did wrong or could change, it has no bearing on the actual genetics or pedigree or whether Cullen is breed worthy or not or what health tests need to be done. And it's water under the bridge, no going back to change it now.


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## fuzzybunny

I'm not a breeder but is it standard for a TLI test to be done? I've seen TLI scores listed by some breeders on their websites.


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## VaBeachFamily

Chris, Exactly, thanks. I didn't have anything to do with the naming, nor do I know where the choice came from. I know where my dog got his name, and that is all that I can be held accountable.


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## GSD07

The name is a big deal and I'm surprised that you don't understand that and do not grill your pup's breeder re that. It's probably better not to shrug this issue off since this is the conversation that is destined to be repeated many many times in the future when people look at your pup's pedigree for whatever reason. Please be open and every time explain that the sire is actually from a fraudulent haus Iris.


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## VaBeachFamily

So... You mean to tell me, that my dog is "fraudulent" because the name was apparently available? I get why people who know the original might be mad, and I would never use another name that I had heard of apparently, but if Cullen is mostly for my own fun and enjoyment, then it really is none of anyone elses business what his pedigree says quite frankly, and if someone WAS to ask, I would tell them that... He is NOT DDR... because I wouldn't want anyone thinking he was anyhow.


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## selzer

It IS a big deal. The current World Sieger is Ober Von Bad-boll. I have two bitch pups that need to be registered. They have no relation to Ober, but I COULD in the AKC system, name them Bara Vom Bad Boll and Dola Von Bad Boll. And it would appear that I have Bad-boll dogs in my peidgree. 

It does not matter what name I use Arminius, Wienerau, kirschental, Du Haut Mansard -- which they have in their background but would be seriously incorrect because the person who runs that kennel had no control over this breeding. 

And if you are producing garbage dogs, using big German Kennel names, people see those dogs and start relating whatever fault you are producing to those dogs. ie. I saw a dog out of some Arminius dog and it was real spooky. 

Let's face it, as kennels change hands, are inherited, suffer from kennel blindness, their dogs can go down in quality by their own hand, they do not need some American Kennel helping their reputation go south by STEALING their name for the specific purpose of boosting their own dogs.

Anyone who digs just a little bit will see that and figure it out and lose ALL respect for the kennel who did that.


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## selzer

End users you have no intentions of breeding, might pick a surname out of their dog's background and use it on them. It is not correct, but if the dog is not bred, it will not affect anyone else, since you call your dog Bear or Hunter, and the rest of the name is pretty much lost unless they look at the pedigree. Then they notice the pet owner used a name in the pedigree on their dog -- not good, but not a deliberate attempt to defraud. 

People who breed dogs that they have named deliberately to try to make their dog out as more than they are -- that is where the big problem lies.


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## Lakl

Just an off question here, but if I named my dog Aidan Von Wienerau or whatever and someone looked at his pedigree, couldn't they just see that there were no Wienerau descendants in his lineage? Not trying to be smart, just genuinely asking. Or does this immediately pop up as a red flag for those that know what they are looking at in pedigrees as someone trying to mislead less knowledgeable people?


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## selzer

Lakl said:


> Just an off question here, but if I named my dog Aidan Von Wienerau or whatever and someone looked at his pedigree, couldn't they just see that there were no Wienerau descendants in his lineage? Not trying to be smart, just genuinely asking. Or does this immediately pop up as a red flag for those that know what they are looking at in pedigrees as someone trying to mislead less knowledgeable people?


Yes and no. The sire or dam does not need to be named von Wienerau to have the pup named that, and still be correct. If the person who own the Wienerau Kennel buys Xara Vom Agilofinger and breeds her to Ober von Bad-Boll, the pup can be named Nicka von Wienerau. Because this is the person who owned the bitch and set up the whelping. 

Often times you have Jalna du Haut Mansard, dam to Rangoon du Haut Mansard, dam to Vegas du Haut Mansard. But you can also have Yxi vom Hawelkaweg, dam to Prisca del Lagorai, dam to Ulli von Aurelius. It depends on who owned the bitch at the time of breeding. 

If I named Jenna's daughters with a Bad-Boll surname, that suggests that whoever owns that kennel had control over that breeding. It would be stealing their reputation. 

When we know better, we do better. Putting a famous German kennel name on an American bred dog, or a German line dog here, is usually a sign of a newbie wanting to name their dog in the German fashion. I am glad that I found that out before I made a stupid mistake. Because no way would these German Kennels have a bitch with a good deal of American bred dogs in her background, it would not be quite as apparent if I named Joy, Joy von Aurelius as her sire is Gispo von Aurelius, but more often the name follows the bitch line, as usually it is the bitch owner controls the breeding. 

Now if I buy a bitch in whelp, they say that my name should then be on the pup, even though I did not set up the breeding. Well, Odessa/Herko pups will have my kennel name, those intended for breeding. Though once people take the application, they do with it what they want. I could register them myself, but then the buyer has no control over the registered name. They can call a dog named Evenstar's Evo, Columbo if they want does not matter. 

So when a thread comes on saying the breeder wants us to do this, but I want to... breeders will side with the breeder, and the OP will not be happy and do what they want anyway.


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## Lakl

Ahhh...I see. When you explain it like that, I think it would bother me as well. I think if this were my dog, I would be very curious to know my breeders reasoning behind selecting this name. Especially if I were going to title my dog for future breeding considerations. Jmo.


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## fuzzybunny

Selzer or any other breeder, is it standard practice to do TLI tests on the dam/sire? I've seen these scores listed by some Shiloh breeders and not others. Just wondering if it falls into the category of a necessary test that should be done or bonus or not necessary at all. Even if the dam/sire have normal scores, does that really mean much because if EPI is in the line(s) then their progeny could still have a high chance of getting it, correct?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Some EPI info: 
exocrine pancreatic insufficiency

EPI in Dogs

Research - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency


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## selzer

fuzzybunny said:


> Selzer or any other breeder, is it standard practice to do TLI tests on the dam/sire? I've seen these scores listed by some Shiloh breeders and not others. Just wondering if it falls into the category of a necessary test that should be done or bonus or not necessary at all. Even if the dam/sire have normal scores, does that really mean much because if EPI is in the line(s) then their progeny could still have a high chance of getting it, correct?


I have not seen it as standard practice, but what is standard changes as a problem becomes more common in the breed, and people gain confidence in the test. I do not run this test. I have done thyroid and cardiac, and I do vWd on all of mine. I have tested an individual for EPI.


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## spiritsmom

I will be making TLI testing part of my usual pre-breeding testing for my GSDs and Shiloh. Being that I have had dogs with EPI and my Kaiser is borderline EPI I want to do what I can to ensure that I don't produce it. Now a dog can have a really high TLI (no sign of EPI) one year and then the next year have it be so low as to actually have EPI. So really a TLI may need to be done annually, but I don't know that I will go to that extent for it in my GSDs - probably will in my Shiloh. I plan to do OFA hips/elbows, TLI, Thyroid, Cardiac and probably the DM gene test. DM is starting to pop up in Shilohs now too. I may do Penn Hip eventually when I do the final for OFA, maybe.


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## VaBeachFamily

OK ..> Thanks Michelle  I am making a list and am going to present it for pricing next month at the vet so that I am prepared come next year

As for everyone else, I have contacted the breeder who responded and told me that he is going to contact the person he got Bax from, as he was already named when he acquired him ( they call him Hoss or something like that, nothing at all related, because they didn't choose the registered name). I will inform you of what I hear back.


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## fuzzybunny

spiritsmom;2209264Now a dog can have a really high TLI (no sign of EPI) one year and then the next year have it be so low as to actually have EPI. So really a TLI may need to be done annually said:


> I had this happen with Jazz actually. We tested him the first year and his TLI score was borderline EPI and when we tested him the following year it was normal. He was fasted for 15 hours before each test. He's doing fine now so I'm not worrying about it.


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