# Will NOT let strangers approach him



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Duke (5 y/o GSD, rescue, in our home for 9 weeks) had to wear a muzzle today at the vet!  

Grooming: We have taken him for grooming twice. Both times he growled when the groomer (different person each time, both females) approached him to pet him and take him back. If we just hand the leash to the groomer he will hesitantly let her take him back. Once she gets him back to the grooming stations he lets her bathe him and blow him dry. The first time he let the groomer grind his nails. Yesterday he growled any time she tried to mess with his feet. He lets her walk him on his leash back up to the front when we come to pick him up.

Walks: On his walks in our neighborhood he has growled at two little girls who approached him to pet him. He did once let a little boy pet him. 

In the store: Inside of PetSmart he sticks his nose out toward strangers as they pass as if he wants to sniff them. He has approached several dogs and sniffed calmly. However, once as a little boy squeezed by us he sort of crowded Duke and tried to pet him. Duke growled. 

In the clinic: Today I took Duke for his first vet visit (since he's been in our care). He would not let the vet tech approach him. Every time she tried, he growled. Yet, while she and I chatted and he walked around the room (on the leash) he would walk past her and sniff of her. But if she approached him or reached toward him he growled. She said when dogs behave this way it's best to put a muzzle on them so the vet & techs can do what they need to do with the dog. I felt bad for him, but of course I didn't want anything bad to happen. So I put the muzzle on him. He sat next to me and I sort of held him while the vet tech approached to take his temp. He growled as ugly of a growl as he could through the muzzle any time she got near. She basically was unable to do anything with him. They needed to take his blood to do a heartworm test and the vet needed to look at his skin because he has been itchy. The vet tech asked me to give her the leash and see if Duke would go back in the back with her. I did, and he did. He wasn't hesitant at all. He walked right with her. He did let them draw blood, but the vet said he wouldn't let her look at his stomach. 

Basically, the point is, Duke seems to be fearful/nervous/aggressive with strangers. I don't know which one it is. He acts curious like he wants to sniff them. But if they approach him he immediately starts growling. This really bothers me! I don't want to have a dog that no one can pet. I don't want to worry about taking him in public. No one in my family has met him and I am nervous he will do this with them. We are actually taking him to my sister's house this Thursday...there will be like 8 people there he has never met. 

What do we do about this problem?!  We are planning to bring a trainer into our home very soon to help us. But do you all have any suggestions?

Sorry this is so long.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I don't really have any advice but my dog that passed away 8 months ago was the exact same way. He growled at everyone despite my socialization efforts. The only way anyone could ever pet him is when they walked him and I was standing at a distance. After a few minutes of walking then would he would let them pet him.


----------



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

I hope that is not Duke's future.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Did you get him through that rescue in your signature? Could you talk to the foster? What was he like there, what worked and what did not?

I think grooming 2x in 9 weeks is a lot for a new dog, so would not be scheduling him for that again if you can help it. 

Given what he is doing right now, I would not take him to a gathering. 

My brain is shot with this loss of an hour (yeah, sure, that's why!) so I am not able to talk about anything in detail but here is some information: ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist - Desensitization and Counterconditioning

I would also look at doing NILIF. Nothing in Life is Free

I would also join the Yahoo Shy K9 group. shy-k9s : shy-k9s

I think this is a good thing to go back to the beginning: http://www.*brightstar*gsd.org/mainpages/adviseforowners.html 

Good luck - I will check back!


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

I am no authority on the matter, but this definately sounds like fearful aggression to me and can end up very ugly if you're not careful. I would start by making 'socializing' a top priority in his training. Use every opportunity to introduce him to strangers, and make certain the strangers know how to introduce _themselves_ to a strange dog. Always allow your dog to smell them first, then have them treat him, then you praise him for a job well done. Your dog will learn that meeting new people is a good thing and not something to dread or fear. Depending on your dog, you may have to baby step this process and don't try to force him on anyone too quickly. You need to be in complete control of every introduction, so that you can head off any potential problems before they happen. Okay, with that being said, I'll step aside and let the resident experts take it from here. Good luck!


----------



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes, we did adopt him from the rescue org in my signature. I have e-mailed with his foster dad who has told me he never heard or saw Duke growl. He said the only time he heard of Duke not being friendly was from a groomer who said Duke wouldn't let her clean his ears out. His foster took him to several places/events where there were many people around and didn't have any problems with him.

I think part of this is our fault because we don't take Duke out a lot, nor do we have people over to our home much. In fact, we haven't had anyone in our home since adopting Duke. The only place we have taken him is PetSmart. Come to think of it, once when we had him in the back seat of the car, I walked up to the window with a lady he had never met and he let her reach in a pet him. Hm...I just now remembered about that.

We are still planning to take him to my sister's house this Thursday. Our plan is to tell everyone there to NOT approach Duke or try to pet him. In fact, we are going to ask that everyone ignore Duke for at least the first hour. We are hoping this will help him ease into the new environment and get used to being around my family without feeling fearful. If we stand and talk to a stranger and that person doesn't try to interact with Duke, he doesn't seem to mind at all. Sometimes he will sniff. Sometimes he will ignore that person. It's only when the stranger tries to approach him or pet him that he gets uncomfortable and growls. 

Any other advice?


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Hi Holly,

As the first-time owner of a fear-aggressive GSD, I would hesitate to take a nervous dog to a house full of strangers. However, if you really think Duke might be able to handle it, help him a little-add in some desensitization.




HobNob said:


> Our plan is to tell everyone there to NOT approach Duke or try to pet him. In fact, we are going to ask that everyone ignore Duke for at least the first hour.


When Duke can see people, but they aren't approaching him, treat him with something really good like cheddar cheese (this is what we used for desensitizing Wolf to my step-grandson). As long as he is calm and he can see a person, keep up the good mood with a treat. When the person goes out of sight, stop treating. Use your good influence to help him change his mind about people. Although others may disagree, I suggest you give the treat-rather than force Duke to get close to the person in order to get the treat. That can come later.

I really hope it works for you-adopted GSD are a blessing, really a blessing.

Mary Jane


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Basu was like this but 1000x worse when I adopted him. He actually wouldn't let anyone anywhere near him. I think it was 6 months before he would even let my friends pet him and several years before he would approach strangers. The good news is that he did come around. It took quite a bit of formal training (Beginning, Intermediate and Advanced classes) plus daily training for the duration of his life. 

I would NOT force any kind of socialization on him at this point. You want to make all interactions with people positive and if he is nervous and growling then he's already way over his threshold so you need to avoid any interaction that is not positive. <<< This is really important to understand. You want to carefully build your dog's confidence without going over threshold and at the same time establish yourself as a calm and confident leader so that he understands that you can handle situations and he doesn't have to. 


Just a few quick ideas/resources:

The Shy-K9s group that Jean linked to is an excellent resource. 

There are also some very good books out there on fearful dogs. 
Here are a few: http://www.dogwise.com/search.cfm

Clicker training can be great for fearful dogs. I also train using games as confidence building exercises. 

I would look for a qualified and experienced behaviorist/trainer in your area who uses positive reinforcement and counter conditioning to rehab fearful dogs and work with them to come up with a training plan.


----------



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I would NOT force any kind of socialization on him at this point. You want to make all interactions with people positive and if he is nervous and growling then he's already way over his threshold so you need to avoid any interaction that is not positive.


With this are you suggesting we don't take him to my sister's this week? I initially started leaning in that direction, but there are some signs which lead me to believe Duke may be able to handle the situation...the primary being that Duke seems fine when strangers are AROUND him and paying him no attention. The only time he growls or seems upset is if a stranger approaches him or reaches to pet him. If we take him to my sisters, we will have his crate with us so we plan to crate him some of the time especially if he gets nervous. She also has a backyard where Duke can go out to play with her two dogs (which we will only do if Duke is having positive interactions with the dogs, and I suspect he will). Finally, my husband and I have agreed if the situation seems to much for Duke we will go to a hotel for the weekend.


----------



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Well after seeing the responses here and also getting advice from some people in the Austin GSD Rescue org, and talking it over with my husband, we have decided I will go to Fort Worth by myself and the hubs will stay home with Duke. I wish we could take him, but it seems it will be too risky. We were provided with the name of a trainer in the San Antonio area who is highly recommended by AGSDR, so will be consulting with him soon hopefully.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

good decision on not taking him with you, i think it would be to overwhelming for him and you'd be setting him up for failure.........congrats on seeking out a trainer for some help....i am sure once you get an expert eval and dedicate yourselfs to working on it you should see some improvements.......it will probably take a while as counter conditioning can take some time.....best of luck!


----------



## Nevaeh's Mom (Jan 19, 2011)

I would NOT force any kind of socialization on him at this point. You want to make all interactions with people positive and if he is nervous and growling then he's already way over his threshold so you need to avoid any interaction that is not positive. <<< This is really important to understand. You want to carefully build your dog's confidence without going over threshold and at the same time establish yourself as a calm and confident leader so that he understands that you can handle situations and he doesn't have to. 

This is great advice...I have a 10 month old fear agressive GSD girl...we started taking her to a vet behaviorist when she was 5 months old...and that is exactly what we were told...you cant use the traditional NILIF mentally with these dogs...you just make things worse if you force things on them...unfortunately mine severed her achilies tendon and for the last 3 months she has been in a cast or on restriction...so we have lost time with her positive reconditioning as we havent been able to take her anywhere, but now we start again slowly...training is good but you want to try and change their behavior towards these stressors, and it is a slow process...we started walks at the park at a distance once we learned why she was always tensed up....and you make the expericnce a good one, and SLOWLY build,,,closer, reward. etc GOOD EXPERIENCES ONLY....we were flooding her with thinking the more people or dogs we put her around she would get used to it, and she couldn't process it..like the above memeber stated...have you ever watched their demeanor when they are in one of those situations?...they are confused on how to behave...you can see it, if just for a moment...then they react...good luck to you, keep us posted


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Not all dogs like to be handled by strangers. I didn't see anything in the description that clearly indicated fear aggression--in fact, he sounds very tolerant and seeking to avoid aggression--he very nicely warns people to STOP TOUCHING HIM. This *could* be fear, but... why do you think so? 

German Shepherds are not Golden Retrievers. It is NOT inherently rewarding for a stranger to touch them. In fact, many adult dogs find this to be quite rude, just as you might if someone came over to you and started pinching your fingers and sticking something in your ears.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a very confident 2 yr old and he hates to have his feet messed with....so I just muzzle him and take him to the groomer. He fusses dramatically but recovers immediately. His sire's owner said dad is the same way, go figure...ticklish is genetic?
I will also muzzle him with blood draws at the vet. I'm not going to pick my battles with him. I know he hates to have his feet touched(though I do wipe them when muddy and he will submit to me, loudly) 
If your dog recovers from the "man-handling" then don't worry about it, some dogs just need the muzzle to feel secure and it also helps the techs while they go about their business. My female on the other hand needs the muzzle because she is fear aggressive, the muzzle calms her as well. She recovers, but she isn't one to give kisses and tail wags afterwards like my male does.


----------

