# Disarmimg helper- dog crowding?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok- sorry, I don't know all the terms yet. In a back transport, which I _think_ is followed by the "reattack" (is that right?) the handler will then walk up, sit the dog (no barking allowed) and then walk past the helper and circle back around to ask for the stick. 

In some of the SchH videos I've watched, it almost seems like the handler is using his left leg to push the dog away from the helper- like the dog is crowding him. Is this a point(s) deduction? Is this a show of poor obedience, or is it desirable for the dog to want to keep on the "bad guy?"

Maybe this isn't as common as I thought because I can't find a youtube video to show as an example. Hopefully you guys understand what I'm describing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes you always set the dog up for success, lol. Nikon's very obedient in the protection phase but I still turn left away from the helper, and if the helper is close you can ask them to step back too (the handler controls the routine). If you are allowed to chose, why risk it? I also take the stick while in front, but that's personal preference.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Actually I'm not clear on your answer Lies. Is this step a show of obedience specifically- or should the dog be more focused on the bad guy (at the expensive of nice, noncrowded heeling)?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Define focus? The dog should not be unwilling to move with the handler nor pop forward and take a dirty jab at the helper. At this point the helper is stationary (and the handler may have asked him to take a step back away from the dog). You say "fuss" and then heel away, whichever way you choose but I don't know anyone that doesn't turn left. Then some people kind of back their dog into position and others take a circle around into position.

During protection I don't really want my dog doing fancy prancy happy face heeling, I prefer him to just walk with me and look forward (or at the helper), but he MUST heel when I say heel. Yes if the dog is crowding such that the handler is pushing him into position that probably incurs point deductions. How much would depend on the level of the trial and the overall picture.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> The dog should not be unwilling to move with the handler nor pop forward and take a dirty jab at the helper.


This answered my question. Thanks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gotcha. I should add a disclaimer: IMHO!

I don't want to have to shove my dog off the helper with my thigh, to me that's not correct, BUT if I'm in a trial and that's what I have to do I will do it (or give an extra command).


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

wildo said:


> Ok- sorry, I don't know all the terms yet. In a back transport, which I _think_ is followed by the "reattack" (is that right?) the handler will then walk up, sit the dog (no barking allowed) and then walk past the helper and circle back around to ask for the stick.
> 
> In some of the SchH videos I've watched, it almost seems like the handler is using his left leg to push the dog away from the helper- like the dog is crowding him. Is this a point(s) deduction? Is this a show of poor obedience, or is it desirable for the dog to want to keep on the "bad guy?"
> 
> Maybe this isn't as common as I thought because I can't find a youtube video to show as an example. Hopefully you guys understand what I'm describing.


 OK first this is the "side" transport...Back transport is when you and the dog are heeling behind the helper and he turns to attack.

you said " _it almost seems like the handler is using his left leg to push the dog away from the helper- like the dog is crowding him. Is this a point(s) deduction?"_

This is not correct. In Protectection the dog should show change of drives. The dog should heel correctly after being turned off from guarding and then given an obedience command. I'm not saying it must have perfect attention to handler but the handler should not be physically moving the dog with his/her leg. But that being said, I would never take any points just for crowding at a club trial. In a Championship you would mention in the critique that the dog should be more correct in the setup for side transport, there is no "set" deduction but it will go into the overall picture of that exercise and will effect the rating.


Frank


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Gotcha. I should add a disclaimer: IMHO!
> 
> I don't want to have to shove my dog off the helper with my thigh, to me that's not correct, BUT if I'm in a trial and that's what I have to do I will do it (or give an extra command).


 
Hahaha...No, do it...The extra command is a "set deduction"...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

schh3fh2 said:


> Hahaha...No, do it...The extra command is a "set deduction"...


Well there you have it Willy! Thanks Frank, I'll remember that.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

What is a set deduction?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

wildo said:


> What is a set deduction?


 In the rules there are some mistakes that are "set deductions".

In the sit in motion, if the dog stands, -5 pts. In protection 2nd out command -3 pts...send out with down, 2nd command -1.5 pts, 3rd command -2.5 pts....

Like that, other mistakes just go into the overall picture of the exercise and go into the judge putting the exercise in a catagory and thus the point deduction for that exercise.



Frank


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ah- I see. By "set" you just mean predefined. But other mistakes not predefined in the rules are up to the judge as to how much he takes off. So bumping into the dog with your thigh to get them off the helper (when you circling around to get the stick after the back transport) might get you a point off at the judges discretion, but actually giving a second fuss command absolutely will get you points off per the rule book. Correct?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

wildo said:


> Ah- I see. By "set" you just mean predefined. But other mistakes not predefined in the rules are up to the judge as to how much he takes off. So bumping into the dog with your thigh to get them off the helper (when you circling around to get the stick after the back transport) might get you a point off at the judges discretion, but actually giving a second fuss command absolutely will get you points off per the rule book. Correct?


You got it...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I actually pivot right and ask Deja to go with me away from the helper. This made more sense to her than my stepping between her and the bad guy. Nothing to do with your question, but thought I would post anyhow.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

lhczth said:


> I actually pivot right and ask Deja to go with me away from the helper. This made more sense to her than my stepping between her and the bad guy. Nothing to do with your question, but thought I would post anyhow.


Yes, when I was trying to find a video clip on youtube to demonstrate this, I did see the pivot right method. I kind of liked it. 

I also saw some that would do the same thing in theory, but backwards. The handler would take a step backwards but turn into the dog (handler rotates 90 degrees counterclockwise). The dog would follow of course. Then the handler walked between the dog and helper, but with this method there was no confusion on the dog. It looked pretty good as well.

And of course the many videos I watched where the dog didn't seem to have any issue with the handler passing between the two looked just fine as well. ha!


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I actually pivot right and ask Deja to go with me away from the helper. This made more sense to her than my stepping between her and the bad guy. Nothing to do with your question, but thought I would post anyhow.


 
I'm in the process of changing to this way also over this winter....After the long bite my dog is so high that the last 3 champioships I lost the "V" when he got out in front again or setup in basic next to the helper instead of with me. So now I will squeeze him betwen me and the helper and hope that works...LOL


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Long bite!? Man, and here I thought I had the terms!!

-Blind search
-Bark and hold
-Escape
-Reattack
-Back Transport
-Courage Test

Where the heck does long bite fit in??? :crazy:


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

wildo said:


> Long bite!? Man, and here I thought I had the terms!!
> 
> -Blind search
> -Bark and hold
> ...


Long bite == Courage test


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Long bite == Courage test


 Actually the new term is "Attack on the dog out of motion" 

Long bite, courage test are old school terms...sorry hahaha


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It seams to me that Wildo is trying to figure out how to win the Nationals before he ever even gets his first Schutzhund dog! (Just picking at you Wildo! I love how analytical you are! )


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

& you cannot use the word *bite* ever, ever again!


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

My dog tends to guard the helper very closely. So, for the side transport I will ask the helper to take one step back if she is too close. That way I can cleanly heel away.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If Wildo wants to win the Nationals he is visiting the right club.


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