# Barking And Lunging



## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

My 6.5 month old puppy is starting to bark and lunge at people when they walk by our home when I take him out to do his business. We walk out from a back door, not a front, and if he even hears someone on the sidewalk he goes nuts. I will take him back inside immediately if he starts that and wait until calms down before taking him out again. When he does, he will be quiet until we get to the front yard and then he will bark if sees or hears anyone on the sidewalk. I will correct him, pulling him to walk away, but he will not stop. I work on getting his attention with out watch command, but he will not do it, even if I try before he starts barking. Once the person is in front of the house, then the lunging starts. Again, a correction, but he will still bark and lunge again. We continue the corrections but at this point, he is now 63 pounds and because he lunges and pulls so much, my right shoulder has now become strained and injured enough that I don't have a lot of strength to pull him back. I still can, but my shoulder will hurt something fierce.

I'm not sure how to fix the behavior. We just started to go to obedience classes, but we only just finished week 1 so we have a ways to go yet. My husband works away from home, so it is just me to look after him and I want to be able to do that, correctly, without injuring myself further.

Now, the last time my husband was home, he let Ronin bark and lunge when a man was walking by on the sidewalk. I heard the commotion and went to look out the window. I was able to hear the guy ask if Ronin was friendly, and my husband said yes, and the guy walked up to Ronin and Ronin stopped barking, sniffed and then licked his hands and arms like they were long lost friends, and when the guy backed away he started barking again. Of course, I was not happy with my husband and told him so, but he told me I worry too much and that nothing happened. I feel like since he let that happen Ronin thinks it's ok to do that and I have to do that much more work to correct it.

I am the primary one who takes care of him, since my husband is away, and I want to make sure that we get it right. We do go for walks, and I run hard around the back yard with him for about 20-30 minutes at night as well. We do training every day for about 10 minutes at a time before he gets bored or distracted. The watch command is great for inside, but not so much out and about. He gets praised and rewards when he calmly watches someone go by the house when we are outside, but it's about 50/50 right now on whether or not he will stop barking and lunging when corrected.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Not sure if this a fear period related issue? We have contacted our trainer, but she is very busy and unsure of when she will be able come and do some training with us at home so I really would like some suggestions if possible. Thanks again.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

My best advice would be to take him to a park and let him meet as many people and dogs and children as possible. Do this maybe 3-4 times in a week's span. Don't overdo it because I think it's a good thing that he is protective of your property, but he needs to recognize good behavior and bad behavior. The people passing might just be giving him eye contact, which sets many dogs off. He will still be a puppy for another year so expect a lot of these "what the heck?" moments. Your dog is still maturing and finding himself. I fostered a few dogs and pups, I thought I was going to lose my mind, but somehow they seem to "get it". Jut show him what appropriate behavior is, and over time it will sink in.
Hope this helps.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If you're not able to give a firm enough correction to keep his focus on you,another option is to stand calmly until he stops of his own accord.Then allow him to greet when he's calm.You would have to have a couple of volunteers to help you out.It takes a lot longer but the end result is he still learns he doesn't get his way until he's calm and cooperative.Then have him sit for pets so he's following your instructions and under your control.
This is only if he is a "frustrated greeter" not for an aggressive dog.

Others hopefully will chime in with various methods and you can choose whichever works best for you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its probably not what you're thinking of as far as fear periods and what you read about that. Its more the natural suspicion and awarness of things he supposed to have coming out and he doesn't really know what to do with it. If you're pulling him away from things, in general, you're building frustration and making it worse. Try being more along the lines of pre emptive and stop him as soon as he starts paying attention to noises and people in the distance like that. Teach him to leave it. Teach him to quiet, but everything has to be before he's worked up. Its too late then and the correction to stop what he's doing can be tough.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

This is how I handle or train my dogs in this or similar situation. So this would be one option depending on what result you are looking for. First, the priority for my dogs is the protection of my home and family in a controlled manner. So I would praise the alert (bark). Then teach a "enough" command, this means "I hear you, good dog, be aware but no need to bark further unless there is an additional danger". In most cases a bark from a GSD is enough to let a bad guy know "just keep walking". Then since I also want my dogs to be good ambassadors for GSD, (this means meeting and greeting, but on my terms). I do not want someone just walking up to my dogs and my meeting without my approval and release. So I keep my dogs at "Fuss" and walk to the person, Have my dogs sit, then when they look at me and not the person, release them with a "go play". This takes training and time to get a result. I do train with a prong collar. One other thing I might add, I also never want take my dog from a situation that they fail in. Example, barking too much so I put them in the house to calm down. I would rather praise the alert, command "enough" and if one barks again, correct then start over, praising any success even if they stop barking for a split second so not only do they understand what I want, but they win the lesson and they please me. FYI, sometimes this can take 20 min to walk from side gate to side walk (when we started out), but the results I have had I am pleased with. I try to look at every situation as a training moment and a game with my dogs, this helps them focus and seems to make them want to succeed because it is fun for them and not a chore. I hope this helps,


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Working on focus/engagement will help. Making yourself the most interesting thing to him will keep his attention on you and he can learn to ignore distractions. I see too many people being monotone, be exciting.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh gezz, well if your goal is to have some half trained "alert barking at strangers" kinda dog (which I doubt??) I can't help you. At my high
point I walked my OS WL GSD, my American Band Dawg and my Boxer at the same time. I didn't need them walking around my neighbor telling me "Hey there's a stranger!!" Bark, Bark, that was not there job. I prefer to train my dogs to "ignore people" on walks and that is what they do it worked out fine. 

But first a simple question ... when you correct the dog are you pulling "Straight back or Sideways???" It makes a difference.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Oh gezz, well if your goal is to have some half trained "alert barking at strangers" kinda dog (which I doubt??) I can't help you. At my high
> point I walked my OS WL GSD, my American Band Dawg and my Boxer at the same time. I didn't need them walking around my neighbor telling me "Hey there's a stranger!!" Bark, Bark, that was not there job. I prefer to train my dogs to "ignore people" on walks and that is what they do it worked out fine.
> 
> But first a simple question ... when you correct the dog are you pulling "Straight back or Sideways???" It makes a difference.


in the beginning I was pulling straight back, but now I have started to immediately turn and walk the other way, pulling the dog to the side a bit, and turning my body at the same time so he has to follow me. This was the recommendation by the obedience instructor. When he is lunging, I often find myself pulling straight back, which I know can sometimes make him pull harder. I have to break the habit, and that is on me. I don't stress out, but I can often feel pain in my shoulder. I tell him enough, and when he calms down, I high praise and treat. But often the next person we have to do it all over again.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Pulling is not helping. I know its hard sometimes, to be sure and confident in what to do, but that type of thing frustrates them and kicks in their opposition reflex.Something real simple that was said to me once, keeping it in mind helps me. If the leash is tight, your dog is gone.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Pulling is not helping. I know its hard sometimes, to be sure and confident in what to do, but that type of thing frustrates them and kicks in their opposition reflex.Something real simple that was said to me once, keeping it in mind helps me. If the leash is tight, your dog is gone.


Yeah I'm starting to realize that.  That's why I want suggestions so that I can properly correct it. I just went home on my lunch to let him out, and someone was walking by. I had his attention for all of 3 seconds before he started barking and lunging. I quickly turned and walked away and he followed and stopped. When I turned back around, he didn't bark, but just gave a low growl then stopped when I got his attention again. I gave him lavish praise and he didn't bark at the next person. Now, I know this is a temporary thing, but I feel with each successful time he'll get better. I just have a lot to work on to know what to do and how to do it properly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ronin2016 said:


> in the beginning I was pulling straight back, but now I have started to immediately turn and walk the other way, pulling the dog to the side a bit, and turning my body at the same time so he has to follow me. This was the recommendation by the obedience instructor. When he is lunging, I often find myself pulling straight back, which I know can sometimes make him pull harder. I have to break the habit, and that is on me. I don't stress out, but I can often feel pain in my shoulder. I tell him enough, and when he calms down, I high praise and treat. But often the next person we have to do it all over again.


Ah ...asking questions actually works!!! 

Ok then praise is fine but I'd lose the treats (myself) a dog can act like a tool and still takes treats! Your instincts are good however. The correction if given is a sideways pull if it did not work it was not firm enough! Straight back ...is a lose ... end of story! 

But ... have a look here, 
Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And the Pet Convincer link is in there so rather than battling with her over "corrections" you could just use it. Works like this:





Finally ... you can train "Calming" behaviour into your Dog, The Place Command and Sit on the Dog is how that is done ... detail are here, :
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums 

Out think your dog, sometimes addressing issues is not about tackling them head on. 

AS always ask questions and welcome aboard.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

I don't feel as if he is aggressive because it is only in this one area. Anywhere else, he's fine. Meeting people, he's calm and doesn't bark too much. I just don't know if it's because he wants to say "Hey this is my property, you better stay off of it" or if he is afraid and trying to show them he's not. Last week, he managed to get off his leash (I later figured out that it was his name tag holder, it got caught on the latch of the leash somehow and when he turned his head, it pressed it enough to unhook it) and a lady was walking by the house with her kids on the sidewalk. Ronin was in the backyard with me, but he took off running. I called him back, but he's gotten much faster and was to our front yard within about 2 seconds. He stopped at the edge of the property, barked at the woman and her kids, and then turned and ran back to me and sat at my side. I apologized profusely, and the lady said it was fine. Her kids thought it was great. I felt awful, but Ronin was not off leash, and is not allowed even to go to the backyard until the gate is closed. We were just about to shut the gate when he got off. Thankfully, he came right back to me, but still not fun for me. He did not approach the woman, she had moved down a bit on the sidewalk in front of the neighbor's. He stayed in our grass, a good 20-30 feet away from them, never even tried to go on the sidewalk.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ronin2016 said:


> Yeah I'm starting to realize that.  That's why I want suggestions so that I can properly correct it. I just went home on my lunch to let him out, and someone was walking by. I had his attention for all of 3 seconds before he started barking and lunging. I quickly turned and walked away and he followed and stopped. When I turned back around, he didn't bark, but just gave a low growl then stopped when I got his attention again. I gave him lavish praise and he didn't bark at the next person. Now, I know this is a temporary thing, but I feel with each successful time he'll get better. I just have a lot to work on to know what to do and how to do it properly.


Where I think you're going to run into trouble is him getting away with what he wanted to do in the first place, then even though you don't realize it, stopping when he wanted to, and then you praising him.

He has to stop, now. Because you said so. A complete break. Then a complete beginning of something new to earn praise. 

That's a big reason why I said earlier you need to be pre emptive. Its very hard to give a useful correction after they've started barking at or gotten to a point where they're going to lunge or chase something. The minute they're attention is beginning to go towards something you don't want, its easier if you stop it.

All the other stuff, playing, obedience, even appropriate barking at a burglar can be just fine later. Listening to you isn't going to ruin him.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Pulling is not helping. I know its hard sometimes, to be sure and confident in what to do, but that type of thing frustrates them and kicks in their opposition reflex.Something real simple that was said to me once, keeping it in mind helps me. If the leash is tight, your dog is gone.


Gone in what way? Just lost?


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Where I think you're going to run into trouble is him getting away with what he wanted to do in the first place, then even though you don't realize it, stopping when he wanted to, and then you praising him.
> 
> He has to stop, now. Because you said so. A complete break. Then a complete beginning of something new to earn praise.
> 
> ...


I guess my problem is that I'm still so new at this that I'm sure when not to praise. I took him for his evening walk yesterday when I got home and when we got home, we had a couple of people who walked in front of the house on the sidewalk and he just watched them. Never barked or growled. I gave him praise for being quiet and he seemed to get it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Julian G said:


> Gone in what way? Just lost?


it means you've lost control of the situation. Tight leash, the dog is already out there on alert with no focus on you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ronin2016 said:


> I guess my problem is that I'm still so new at this that I'm sure when not to praise. I took him for his evening walk yesterday when I got home and when we got home, we had a couple of people who walked in front of the house on the sidewalk and he just watched them. Never barked or growled. I gave him praise for being quiet and he seemed to get it.


Its not always easy, for anyone. You try to control the situation so that you can have a clear distinction between what you want and don't want.

In that case with the people walking by, I would have made him leave it after he saw them and had enough time to see they weren't anything to worry about. If he sat there staring at them the whole time, he was making up his own mind. If that's something you want for whatever different reasons, thats what you just praised and reinforced.

For you though, that doesn't help much with him barking and getting worked up. I think that's a little too independent for you.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not always easy, for anyone. You try to control the situation so that you can have a clear distinction between what you want and don't want.
> 
> In that case with the people walking by, I would have made him leave it after he saw them and had enough time to see they weren't anything to worry about. If he sat there staring at them the whole time, he was making up his own mind. If that's something you want for whatever different reasons, thats what you just praised and reinforced.
> 
> For you though, that doesn't help much with him barking and getting worked up. I think that's a little too independent for you.


So would you suggest that every time he sees someone I tell him to leave it and walk away? I can do that, I just want to make sure that I'm doing it right. Our other issue is that, sometimes the person is way down the street just coming around the corner and he sees them before I do. When he starts barking then I know someone is coming. My eyesight is bad so I can't always see someone down that far. In that situation, should I say leave it and then walk away?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I would tell him to leave it. I wouldn't automatically walk away, he just needs to break his attention on things. Its easier if you start at a distance where he's aware of things and that you can still take his focus off of them, then as you gain control, shorten that distance. Its a matter of you controlling the situation so you can make things clear. The randomness of people approaching from around the corner makes it a little tougher, but if you pay attention and think in terms of its going to happen so your prepared, you can still do fine. You need multiple reps of something similar enough that its clear to him.

They're alert and very attentive to everything thats going on, but they can take it all in and move on very quickly. Later on when you have control and he's matured, that's what you'll see. He'll move on from most things, and when he doesn't, you'll know its probably something to pay attention to.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I would tell him to leave it. I wouldn't automatically walk away, he just needs to break his attention on things. Its easier if you start at a distance where he's aware of things and that you can still take his focus off of them, then as you gain control, shorten that distance. Its a matter of you controlling the situation so you can make things clear. The randomness of people approaching from around the corner makes it a little tougher, but if you pay attention and think in terms of its going to happen so your prepared, you can still do fine. You need multiple reps of something similar enough that its clear to him.
> 
> They're alert and very attentive to everything thats going on, but they can take it all in and move on very quickly. Later on when you have control and he's matured, that's what you'll see. He'll move on from most things, and when he doesn't, you'll know its probably something to pay attention to.


Thanks.  I'm hoping that he will calm down a bit when he matures. I know that is part of the problem, because he is about to hit puberty and this all started when I noticed that. We do have our trainer coming in to help, but I just want to try and work on it before she comes. I will try the leave it command, and maybe ask my neighbors to help me by walking along the sidewalk and we'll work on it. We have some nice neighbors along our street who love him and always come over to see him so I'm sure they would help us out.


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## shakariah (May 5, 2016)

How do you deal with while walking you dog past a fence another dog runs up on their side barking intensely. In response mine starts the same as well as pulling me in that direction. She is 3 months old. When I walk her with a 7 month old boxer they both do it. Suggestions?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

shakariah said:


> How do you deal with while walking you dog past a fence another dog runs up on their side barking intensely. In response mine starts the same as well as pulling me in that direction. She is 3 months old. When I walk her with a 7 month old boxer they both do it. Suggestions?


I'm going to correct without saying a word if my dog takes a step in that direction, and I'm not going to walk the two of them together at that age. Some people may feel its unfair, the dog is young and doesn't understand, but all I'm doing is showing them there's a consequence to that action. They can put that together ok.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm going to correct without saying a word if my dog takes a step in that direction, and I'm not going to walk the two of them together at that age. Some people may feel its unfair, the dog is young and doesn't understand, but all I'm doing is showing them there's a consequence to that action. They can put that together ok.


How is the best way to teach the leave it command when outside. Just say leave it, give a quick tug of the leash and keep walking?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

All I do is walk past anything that will catch their interest, say leave it and a little pop with the leash. Its a quick pop, and release right back to a loose leash. Don't try to tug him, he has to make the correct choice. A lot of reps. At some point he's going to make that choice before you pop the leash. That's what you can praise.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> All I do is walk past anything that will catch their interest, say leave it and a little pop with the leash. Its a quick pop, and release right back to a loose leash. Don't try to tug him, he has to make the correct choice. A lot of reps. At some point he's going to make that choice before you pop the leash. That's what you can praise.


Sounds easy enough to figure out. I do treats with Ronin as well as praise, so should I give him a treat for the first little bit when he does it right then slowly wean out the treats?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ronin2016 said:


> Sounds easy enough to figure out. I do treats with Ronin as well as praise, so should I give him a treat for the first little bit when he does it right then slowly wean out the treats?


I don't because I'm not really looking for any big attention to me, just a casual move along from things, or if stationary, ignore that.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't because I'm not really looking for any big attention to me, just a casual move along from things, or if stationary, ignore that.


I tried this when I went and picked Ronin up from daycare and brought him home. He got out of the car and I noticed someone walking along the sidewalk. I saw them before he did so I got his attention, but of course, as always, ronin saw him and started to get ready to bark. I told him to leave it, gave a leash tug and started to walk away to bring him inside. He didn't move and started to bark. I told him again and popped the leash and turned to go, this time he listened. Not sure if I did it correctly, but it did work the second time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

When I taught "leave it", I did it as a single exercise. Food on the ground, food in my hand. If they went for the food on the ground, I cover it with my foot, say Leave it. When they look at me, reward with what is in my hand. They can never get the food on the floor.

This transfers to everything. Leave it comes to mean to them to leave whatever it is they want. Food, people, dog, fire hydrant, the moon and the stars. It conditions them to look to you when you say "Leave it" because that is where the reward is.

The barking at other dogs, I would just simply correct in the manner Steve described. No words. Just a correction and then praise when he stops. Big praise when he stops. GOOOD BOY! and keep moving.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> When I taught "leave it", I did it as a single exercise. Food on the ground, food in my hand. If they went for the food on the ground, I cover it with my foot, say Leave it. When they look at me, reward with what is in my hand. They can never get the food on the floor.
> 
> This transfers to everything. Leave it comes to mean to them to leave whatever it is they want. Food, people, dog, fire hydrant, the moon and the stars. It conditions them to look to you when you say "Leave it" because that is where the reward is.
> 
> The barking at other dogs, I would just simply correct in the manner Steve described. No words. Just a correction and then praise when he stops. Big praise when he stops. GOOOD BOY! and keep moving.


At what point did you remove the reward of the food in the hand or have you and how?


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> When I taught "leave it", I did it as a single exercise. Food on the ground, food in my hand. If they went for the food on the ground, I cover it with my foot, say Leave it. When they look at me, reward with what is in my hand. They can never get the food on the floor.
> 
> This transfers to everything. Leave it comes to mean to them to leave whatever it is they want. Food, people, dog, fire hydrant, the moon and the stars. It conditions them to look to you when you say "Leave it" because that is where the reward is.
> 
> The barking at other dogs, I would just simply correct in the manner Steve described. No words. Just a correction and then praise when he stops. Big praise when he stops. GOOOD BOY! and keep moving.


He does well with the leave it command most times. Not perfect, but he is only 6.5 months so I don't expect perfection every time. We're working on the not barking at other dogs, and he is going to daycare a couple of times a week to make sure that he doesn't become dog aggressive. He get growling and barking when they are close to our property.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ipopro said:


> At what point did you remove the reward of the food in the hand or have you and how?


oh boy! That I don't remember! It's been a long time! 

In general, once the dog understands the command and you have proofed it. But, IMO, the dog should also have enough of a connection with you that and excited Good Boy! should suffice in these cases.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ronin2016 said:


> He does well with the leave it command most times. Not perfect, but he is only 6.5 months so I don't expect perfection every time. We're working on the not barking at other dogs, and he is going to daycare a couple of times a week to make sure that he doesn't become dog aggressive. He get growling and barking when they are close to our property.


The more we all say, it may come across as contradictory and get a little confusing. Were talking about the same basic ideas, but I was thinking it would be easier for you to not be in a position of needing a correction that may need to be pretty harsh to stop something, like the dogs and the fence.

I think it would be easier for you to teach him under calmer conditions and then add more distractions slowly. Going to doggie daycare won't ensure he won't be dog aggressive. It may be a cause of confusion for him because its inconsistent with asking him to ignore other dogs. I know some dogs can do ok with playing there then behaving elsewhere, but its something else I think would probably make it easier for you with him if you were consistently his source for satisfaction. Not other dogs. Other's may think different.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> oh boy! That I don't remember! It's been a long time!
> 
> In general, once the dog understands the command and you have proofed it. But, IMO, the dog should also have enough of a connection with you that and excited Good Boy! should suffice in these cases.



I do agree, That's the only reward other than a bite that my dogs ever get. A very excited good boy in the foreign language of my choice and a whole lot of lov'n lov'n lov'n and more lov'n.... so much lov'n the dog can hardly stand itself it becomes so excited...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ipopro said:


> I do agree, That's the only reward other than a bite that my dogs ever get. A very excited good boy in the foreign language of my choice and a whole lot of lov'n lov'n lov'n and more lov'n.... so much lov'n the dog can hardly stand itself it becomes so excited...


In this case...I agree.

In general, I never take rewards away completely depending on what I'm doing. A ball, a treat, a dumbbell is a reward for my dog. I don't work for free. I don't expect my dogs too.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

In this case...I agree. In general, I never take rewards away completely depending on what I'm doing. A ball, a treat, a dumbbell is a reward for my dog. I don't work for free. I don't expect my dogs too.

I agree, although, basic commands like sit, lay down, come are met with a 'good boy or girl' and praise. More complicated tasks or Ines where the dog has to make a decision that goes against his/her nature but is made correctly get rewards that are high value.. 

'Leave it' and 'out' are two words I've always taught my dogs as puppy.. Especially as a SAR dog handler though, it is hugely important that while on a trail of the lost a barking dog, shooting gun (live rurally and guns are a norm), or food on the path have to be ignored and the scent being followed kept at a priority and focus... If the OP uses the leave it command in the house as well on low key moments, the ingrained response will spill to more intense situations. That moment of hesitation where the dog stops on conditioned response is usually enough to allow any further follow through to occur from the handler...


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

[/QUOTE]'Leave it' and 'out' are two words I've always taught my dogs as puppy.. Especially as a SAR dog handler though, it is hugely important that while on a trail of the lost a barking dog, shooting gun (live rurally and guns are a norm), or food on the path have to be ignored and the scent being followed kept at a priority and focus... If the OP uses the leave it command in the house as well on low key moments, the ingrained response will spill to more intense situations. That moment of hesitation where the dog stops on conditioned response is usually enough to allow any further follow through to occur from the handler...


> In the house he does great with it for his age. Again not perfect, but he will leave things alone about 90% of the time now. I just have to learn catch him before something occurs, i.e. someone walking along the sidewalk.
> 
> 
> > I think it would be easier for you to teach him under calmer conditions and then add more distractions slowly. Going to doggie daycare won't ensure he won't be dog aggressive. It may be a cause of confusion for him because its inconsistent with asking him to ignore other dogs. I know some dogs can do ok with playing there then behaving elsewhere, but its something else I think would probably make it easier for you with him if you were consistently his source for satisfaction. Not other dogs. Other's may think different.
> ...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> the trainers say he does great there, and is at the point where he can put other dogs in their place when they get too much in his face.


That isn't helping.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Hineni7 said:


> In this case...I agree. In general, I never take rewards away completely depending on what I'm doing. A ball, a treat, a dumbbell is a reward for my dog. I don't work for free. I don't expect my dogs too.
> 
> I agree, although, basic commands like sit, lay down, come are met with a 'good boy or girl' and praise. More complicated tasks or Ines where the dog has to make a decision that goes against his/her nature but is made correctly get rewards that are high value..
> 
> 'Leave it' and 'out' are two words I've always taught my dogs as puppy.. Especially as a SAR dog handler though, it is hugely important that while on a trail of the lost a barking dog, shooting gun (live rurally and guns are a norm), or food on the path have to be ignored and the scent being followed kept at a priority and focus... If the OP uses the leave it command in the house as well on low key moments, the ingrained response will spill to more intense situations. That moment of hesitation where the dog stops on conditioned response is usually enough to allow any further follow through to occur from the handler...





Steve Strom said:


> The more we all say, it may come across as contradictory and get a little confusing. Were talking about the same basic ideas, but I was thinking it would be easier for you to not be in a position of needing a correction that may need to be pretty harsh to stop something, like the dogs and the fence.
> 
> I think it would be easier for you to teach him under calmer conditions and then add more distractions slowly. Going to doggie daycare won't ensure he won't be dog aggressive. It may be a cause of confusion for him because its inconsistent with asking him to ignore other dogs. I know some dogs can do ok with playing there then behaving elsewhere, but its something else I think would probably make it easier for you with him if you were consistently his source for satisfaction. Not other dogs. Other's may think different.





Steve Strom said:


> That isn't helping.


How?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OMG Wherever you are taking him, please stop! He's a young dog. He should not be put in the position to have to "put other dogs in their place when they get to much in his face".



> i was there one day when one dog, a 2 year old mix came up and tried to hump him. the first time, he moved away and ignored him, the second time, he growled a warning, the third time, he turned and snarled a bit and the other dog got the hint. But he didn't move to bite.


He will bite eventually if you allow him to be put in this position. Been there, Done that. Fostered an anxiety ridden doberman who would turn on the nearest dog. Jax was barely 1 at the time. Eventually she went from watching to sending him to the ER for stitches. 8 years later, still dog aggressive. I can only beg you to get your puppy out of there. The so called trainer should have stepped in and stopped the adult dog from harassing him. And failing that, you should have.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ronin, the part where Steve Strom said 'that isn't helping' pertained to allowing a puppy to 'put in its place' an adult dog bothering him.. Not the other stuff you highlighted about what to do to resolve the problem.. Hope that helps clarify (it gets confusing sometimes reading threads, lol)


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

He's already frustrating and loading up at the sight of other dogs, right? Now you're putting him in a position where he feels the need to defend himself. What I mean by working on Leave it with less distractions isn't really a matter of strict attention. You can do it different ways, like Jax or others. For me, its just a way of moving past and through things without strict attentive ob.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and advice. It's a lot to take in. We're going to be working on this with him and hopefully we will be able to get it corrected in the coming months. As for the doggy daycare, I'm not really going to say much more on it because I get people don't agree with it, but right now for my situation, it's the only option right now otherwise he would be home in his crate all day for 13 hours and that is not fair to him. He is only going 1 day a week, and I will say that the trainer that was there wasn't the primary trainer who is normally there, but was called away on an emergency. I agree I should have stepped in, and that is my fault. As a new dog owner, I rely on the trainer giving me advice, but obviously in this instance it wasn't the correct one. That is on me. I'm going to work on leave it and going to work on making sure that he wants to give me the attention and not someone else. I have a lot to work on myself, not just Ronin.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Then you will do well! You have the right attitude and imo, the right perspective.. Sometimes we can't do what is overall 'best' but we do what we can with what we have and put the work in when needed.. Good luck to you and Ronin, keep us posted  pics too


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's so easy to trust people that are supposed to be more knowledgeable than us on a subject. The first trainer I had taught me to prong the drive right out of my female. so many things I regret. The only advise I can give is if you have qualms on something, ask questions. Follow your instinct.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Thanks  I'm going to keep working at making myself more knowledgeable  here is a pic for you. Sorry for the clarity. My tablet takes terrible pictures lol. 65 pounds now. Hr's gonna be a big boy.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> In this case...I agree.
> 
> In general, I never take rewards away completely depending on what I'm doing. A ball, a treat, a dumbbell is a reward for my dog. I don't work for free. I don't expect my dogs too.


I earned the respect and was very obedient to my parents all for free (shelter food etc,,,) and I expect my dogs to be as well. I earned my keep in every way in my Family (Pack) once old enough to do so. My dogs are rewarded with a very good life style on a day in and day out basis. I pay all the bills to afford them that. It's a team effort. They do not have to look for shelter, food, a/c whenever they want it etc... they just need to make daddy proud and they are handsomely rewarded.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. You train your way and I'll train mine. It's been very successful for my trainer and I'll follow her lead.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Ok. You train your way and I'll train mine. It's been very successful for my trainer and I'll follow her lead.


Excuse me? Did I tell you to train any other way? Did I hit a nerve? WTH?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Huh? No nerve here. lol 

I have no idea what you are upset over. There is nothing combative in my statement. You seem to get all fired up over the simplest statements. Breathe. This is only the internet.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Huh? No nerve here. lol
> 
> I have no idea what you are upset over. There is nothing combative in my statement. You seem to get all fired up over the simplest statements. Breathe. This is only the internet.



Pfffffft Plzzzzzzzzzz good day!

I'm so upset I can't stand myself ROFLMAO!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Daycare is good for socializing off leash. They learn to read dog signals and interact. But it does nothing for on leash. Our daycare said about half their dogs are leash reactive, but are fine once they get inside. You need to train your dog not to react on leash. 

Never put your dog in the position of having to stare down another dogs and defend. Don't let the dog pill on a tight leash. I skimmed over what others have told you and it's good advice. I calmly walk away when my dog is reactive. He's getting better.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

Look up how to teach leash pressure, pressure on pressure off, conversational leash work, yield to me follow me. This is a great tool with reactive dogs.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Not to hijack this thread, but my question is too similar to open a new one.  
My pup (6 months) does the same, but only with other on-leash dogs. He will spot dogs very far away and lunge immediately. He might bark immediately, or just stare for a few seconds and then bark if the dog is still out of his reach. He does not bark at dogs who bark at him (from behind the fence for example). He also does not bark when he's off-leash. There are many many dogs in my neighborhood and I can't always escape them before my pup spots them. Sometimes I'm trapped, with people coming from all sides with their dogs. Mine goes totally nuts (which is awful when it's 7am), even worse when you're in a hurry and have to wait until the coast is clear. I think he's making a name for himself, many people already look quite irritated when they see me with him. At obedience class I was the only one who had to stand outside (in the rain) on the grass waiting until class began, because he was stirring the other dogs up with his barking. We will probably work on it there, but it's only 45min a week..
He hardly barks at people though, he might when they "stare" at him or do something out of the ordinary (scream, laugh hard, etc). 

Can I apply the same tactic as suggested here, or is it different when the barking is directed at dogs instead of humans?
I started searching places where he can see dogs pass from a distance and I'd give him a few treats when he spots a dog, but no praise. Just so he can associate seeing dogs with something nice. 
I also can't turn and walk away when he lunges, because then he might fall on the ground (he is cow hocked and falls quite easily when standing sideways to me).


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Daycare is good for socializing off leash. They learn to read dog signals and interact. But it does nothing for on leash. Our daycare said about half their dogs are leash reactive, but are fine once they get inside. You need to train your dog not to react on leash.
> 
> Never put your dog in the position of having to stare down another dogs and defend. Don't let the dog pill on a tight leash. I skimmed over what others have told you and it's good advice. I calmly walk away when my dog is reactive. He's getting better.


We are working on that.  I took him for a walk on the weekend in a park, and what I've been doing is putting him in a sit and telling him to watch me, otherwise, he goes crazy to get to them to try and play. He wasn't barking or lunging, and if people saw me I just told them he's 6 months and training. Everyone was understanding and one owner asked if his female could meet him. I said yes when I saw that the other dog was calm, and let Ronin approach from the side. The other dog just barked once, tail wagging and let Ronin lick her muzzle and then she played for a second before we went on our seperate ways. The next dog we saw, again sit and watch me, but the other dog the owner said wasn't good with big dogs and she appreciated that I didn't try and approach her. Her little dog barked and growled and lunged, but Ronin just sat there with me, looking at me and then at the dog and back. He is getting better, but on leash he just likes to try and go up and play.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

One last comment, a couple of things for you to consider especially about being consistent. At least while you're working on barking and lunging, letting him greet other dogs just creates expectation that you're going to let him meet every dog. I think it just makes it all that much harder for you. Maybe later on, its no big deal, but I think its just something that complicates it all for no good reason.

Doggie day care. I mean this respectfully to LS, but learning to read dog signals and interact completely surrenders the ability to never put your dog in a position of staring down other dogs and defend themselves. The whole leash reactive thing is nothing but people not teaching their dog to behave and just using the leash to try and restrain them. 

There's a lot of people that will disagree and some will take offense to this. Watch me is nothing but avoidance of whats going on. Its a crutch. I use distance as a crutch to make some things a little easier, but in my opinion they have to be able sit and knock it off without avoiding whats there. Take a look at what your doing and think about it. I know there's a lot of different ways to do things, but remember whats giving you trouble and think about which things may not be doing what you think they are.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Ronin2016 said:


> We are working on that.  I took him for a walk on the weekend in a park, and what I've been doing is putting him in a sit and telling him to watch me, otherwise, he goes crazy to get to them to try and play. He wasn't barking or lunging, and if people saw me I just told them he's 6 months and training. Everyone was understanding and one owner asked if his female could meet him. I said yes when I saw that the other dog was calm, and let Ronin approach from the side. The other dog just barked once, tail wagging and let Ronin lick her muzzle and then she played for a second before we went on our seperate ways. The next dog we saw, again sit and watch me, but the other dog the owner said wasn't good with big dogs and she appreciated that I didn't try and approach her. Her little dog barked and growled and lunged, but Ronin just sat there with me, looking at me and then at the dog and back. He is getting better, but on leash he just likes to try and go up and play.


Keep working on it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> One last comment, a couple of things for you to consider especially about being consistent. At least while you're working on barking and lunging, letting him greet other dogs just creates expectation that you're going to let him meet every dog. I think it just makes it all that much harder for you. Maybe later on, its no big deal, but I think its just something that complicates it all for no good reason.
> 
> Doggie day care. I mean this respectfully to LS, but learning to read dog signals and interact completely surrenders the ability to never put your dog in a position of staring down other dogs and defend themselves. The whole leash reactive thing is nothing but people not teaching their dog to behave and just using the leash to try and restrain them.
> 
> There's a lot of people that will disagree and some will take offense to this. Watch me is nothing but avoidance of whats going on. Its a crutch. I use distance as a crutch to make some things a little easier, but in my opinion they have to be able sit and knock it off without avoiding whats there. Take a look at what your doing and think about it. I know there's a lot of different ways to do things, but remember whats giving you trouble and think about which things may not be doing what you think they are.


I respect your experience and I'm not at all bothered that you disagree. Yes, you do have a point. I ended up pulling my puppy from daycare for just that reason, lack of control over his experiences, for now. He's not neutered and they were starting to push for that, so it seemed like a good time to step away from it. My older dog, who can take care of herself and who gives off very strong signals to other dogs which they respect, needs daycare. It's good for her.

My experience with three different day cares is that success depends on three things. First, Is it a good set up? Is there a place for a shy dog to escape from other dogs? Do they have time out or private rooms where dogs can be moved for a time if necessary? Second, does the staff understand dog behavior, are they always present and do they know how to read and prevent negative interactions? Third, do they screen out all aggressive dogs?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I respect your experience and I'm not at all bothered that you disagree. Yes, you do have a point. I ended up pulling my puppy from daycare for just that reason, lack of control over his experiences, for now. He's not neutered and they were starting to push for that, so it seemed like a good time to step away from it. My older dog, who can take care of herself and who gives off very strong signals to other dogs which they respect, needs daycare. It's good for her.
> 
> My experience with three different day cares is that success depends on three things. First, Is it a good set up? Is there a place for a shy dog to escape from other dogs? Do they have time out or private rooms where dogs can be moved for a time if necessary? Second, does the staff understand dog behavior, are they always present and do they know how to read and prevent negative interactions? Third, do they screen out all aggressive dogs?


Number 3, do they screen out all aggressive dogs? 

You don't want to know how many times I have seen dogs that have played with other dogs at dog parks from puppyhood forward that one day a certain maturity switch flips and they become dog aggressive. I have seen this over and over. Screening young dogs for aggression is not something to trust and is outright dangerous. It usually takes anywhere from 6 months to 3 years for that switch to flip, if it does, and you don't want your dog to be the target, been there.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> One last comment, a couple of things for you to consider especially about being consistent. At least while you're working on barking and lunging, letting him greet other dogs just creates expectation that you're going to let him meet every dog. I think it just makes it all that much harder for you. Maybe later on, its no big deal, but I think its just something that complicates it all for no good reason.
> 
> Doggie day care. I mean this respectfully to LS, but learning to read dog signals and interact completely surrenders the ability to never put your dog in a position of staring down other dogs and defend themselves. The whole leash reactive thing is nothing but people not teaching their dog to behave and just using the leash to try and restrain them.
> 
> There's a lot of people that will disagree and some will take offense to this. Watch me is nothing but avoidance of whats going on. Its a crutch. I use distance as a crutch to make some things a little easier, but in my opinion they have to be able sit and knock it off without avoiding whats there. Take a look at what your doing and think about it. I know there's a lot of different ways to do things, but remember whats giving you trouble and think about which things may not be doing what you think they are.


I get what you're saying.  No offense taken from me. Would you suggest that I don't let him meet any dogs when out on a walk at all? At least for now? I can do that if that's what I need to do. As for the watch me command, the trainers for the obedience class asked that we teach them that so that in class we can get their attention instead of him constantly trying to get away from me to get to the other dogs. He's a very social puppy and loves all dogs, big or small. The only time he starts barking and tugging on leash is if I don't let him play or if they are walking in front of the house. i can take the watch me command away when outside of class, but he never seems to want to watch me or make eye contact with me. I was trying to do it just so that he learns to like looking at me. 

As for daycare, I know not everyone agrees it's a good idea for shepherds, but for my situation, I use it. I find that when the main trainers is there, she is much better at handling anything that comes up, and will sometimes (because she knows Ronin so well) work on training with him for a few minutes. I was there one day when there were 2 dogs that moved to pick on Ronin, before I could even move to intercept, she was there and separated them and kept them away from him. The other situation was my fault, I should have stepped in. No question.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I respect your experience and I'm not at all bothered that you disagree. Yes, you do have a point. I ended up pulling my puppy from daycare for just that reason, lack of control over his experiences, for now. He's not neutered and they were starting to push for that, so it seemed like a good time to step away from it. My older dog, who can take care of herself and who gives off very strong signals to other dogs which they respect, needs daycare. It's good for her.
> 
> My experience with three different day cares is that success depends on three things. First, Is it a good set up? Is there a place for a shy dog to escape from other dogs? Do they have time out or private rooms where dogs can be moved for a time if necessary? Second, does the staff understand dog behavior, are they always present and do they know how to read and prevent negative interactions? Third, do they screen out all aggressive dogs?


For our doggie daycare, they have to go and do a mandatory screening before they can start to attend regularly. You leave the dog with them for 2 hours and they watch all interactions with the dog, and it is never out of their sight. If the dog is too timid or is being too aggressive it is not allowed to join. They have different areas for the dogs, but the majority of the time they will play all together. If they need to be separated, they do have an area to put them in. IF the dogs become to rough or crazed, they are put in a crate for a few minutes to calm down and then let back out. Dogs are never left unsupervised. There is always someone with them. There is a 2 hour mandatory rest period during the day where all dogs are crated separately so they can nap and chill out. They do have a rule that they need to be neutered or spayed by 10 months, and we plan on taking Ronin out by then. Hope this clears up a bit of what happens at our doggy daycare.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Number 3, do they screen out all aggressive dogs?
> 
> You don't want to know how many times I have seen dogs that have played with other dogs at dog parks from puppyhood forward that one day a certain maturity switch flips and they become dog aggressive. I have seen this over and over. Screening young dogs for aggression is not something to trust and is outright dangerous. It usually takes anywhere from 6 months to 3 years for that switch to flip, if it does, and you don't want your dog to be the target, been there.


The day care I prefer has three or four trained adults with the dogs at all time. They are in it instantly and they stop it. I also have a friend who works there, so I get the inside info. They are very very good. As I said, it depends on the daycare. They also have a behaviorist who works with the daycare, so they know what to look for. I watched their one hour evaluations of both my dogs, and they saw things I didn't even notice.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

I wanted to give a little bit of an update. So, we are still having some problems with Ronin and the barking and lunging. Last night, we were working on training in the backyard. He heard someone in the front of the house and went crazy. Again, in the backyard yard, away from the sidewalk. He lunged so hard to get to the front of the house, he pulled me to the ground. Then, later on, my neighbor came over into the backyard, and since he knows her, he didn't lunge, just barked for a second and then went back to playing with his ball. Then, all of a sudden, he went up to her, sat and looked up at her, and because she didn't pay attention to him, he jumped up and bit her hip. Now, it didn't break the skin or hurt her badly, but it scared her, and she is nervous around dogs as it is. Now, she loves Ronin so she was okay, but we are not going to allow this to continue. It was the first time this has ever happened, and he's never even done that with me. His trainer will be coming over this weekend and we are going to be doing some major work with Ronin to get this worked out before it becomes a problem. Even in daycare, he is starting to show some aggression, so she will be taking him today to work with him one on one, and then work with him here at home this weekend and for as many days as it takes. I have been warned by her that I may not like what she tells me, but I need to just stay with her and it will get better. In other words, I am the problem. Not that that bothers me, because you know what, I get that. I'm a first time dog owner, and I don't know what the heck I'm doing half the time. I'm going to be working really hard on myself and my training style so that we don't have problems in the future. He has hit puberty and the teenage stage early, so she wants to make sure we nip this in the bud now before it could become worse.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Update: Our trainer came by yesterday to help with the issues we are having. Time for some tough love. We are going to be basically, giving him the cold shoulder for 2 weeks unless we are training, walking or he is laying at my feet. We have to do 50 downs a day, along with other training work, along with "puppy push ups" (sit-down-sit)a bit of the day. No up on furniture and he has to learn to be a bit more independent. All good things, but I'm finding it hard because he seems so sad when I don't pay as much attention to him. However, this gives me a lot of time to get the routine back that I used to have before we brought him home. It also helps me to train him a bit better. I can do this, and I'm sure that it will be for the better in the long run, but right now, finding it a bit tough.

Now, I know some people may not agree with some parts of this training, and that is perfectly fine. However, I've already noticed a change in Ronin, where he is calming down, listening faster, and isn't barking and growling as much as before. And that's only in 24 hours. I'm sure that there are other suggestions you can give me, and feel free to do so, but please understand, I will be sticking to this as much as possible.


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