# Schutzhund and family life



## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

I am sorry if this has been covered, but here it is.

I am a very proud owner of a German Shepherd puppie, I have had many different mixed breeds, adn loved them all. My wife has had Shepherds, and bought me one. But she told me that I would need to go to training.

This kind of hurt, my last dog was born blind, and I had taught him his left from his right, he knew when he was going to come to stairs, and when there was something in front of him..all by command.. Oh well.

Well, I thought if I am going to learn dog training, I wanted to learn all of it.

My wife is concerend with Schutzhund. SHe is afraid of the bite work. My best explanation I could come up with is a dog that is taught to bite when I say bite, is better then a dog who bites when he feels like bitting. ( to me, this says, and well trained dog is less likely to feel that he has to bite ). 

My wifes then comes back with.. what if your son decides to show off, and sends the dog??

My imediate answer was "we dont teach him the command" This didnt fair so well with her.

So... At this moment she is right, but is there anything that can be added?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

No your wife is right...thats always the correct answer-even if it might be wrong i


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I say train the dog in schutzhund and train the kid to not mess around.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me, the bitework aspect of SchH is completely different than all other types of training I do with my dog. For example, I can say "sit" anywhere, in any context, or even have someone else command the dog, and he will sit down. But bitework is not just training a dog to strike on command. There has to be some aspect of a threat present for a dog to learn to react bringing courage and power. Bitework also involves a TON of control/secondary obedience. Often this is how the points really add up in this phase, the obedience aspect of it. Not to mention that Schutzhund is THREE phases and all three are equally weighted. You will be doing so much work in obedience and control. You will learn how to motivate your dog and develop a strong bond. These two things will carry over to normal life in a hugely positive way.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

*Liesje*

**Kenya* UCH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop FO OB1 CL1-R CL1-F RA RN TT HIT TDI CGC*

What is all of that? I know its training but my goodness that dog of yours is a working machine? What does it all mean if I may ask?


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

holland said:


> No your wife is right...thats always the correct answer-even if it might be wrong i


 haha, yup "yes dear" lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LaRen, we haven't done a trial since May 2009 but I can PM you.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

You can bring up the point that... in Schutzhund, it is a sport.. more like a game to the dog. Many Schutzhund dogs, even Sch III, are great family dogs. Number one, you need to have control of your son, and then you won't have to worry about it. Then, you have to explain that the dog is working FOR the sleeve. There are many Schutzhund dogs that won't just BITE someone, unless they have the sleeve on. it is never hidden, it is always prodominate and known.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

The reality is that dogs are very situation oriented. Eveeryone likes to think that their SchH dog will haul off and bite on command but that simply isn't the case. The majority of dogs with sport training are not going to go for a bite unless a man with a sleeve is present. Many dogs also have to be taught that biting situations can occur off the field as well. A stable dog with correct temperament also usually needs to perceive an actual threat. I know that in a social sitaution I could yell the bite command and my dogs would look around and then look back at me like I was crazy because there was no man with equipment and no threat. 

Additionally in SchH, it is generally advisable to only have 1 handler. That means the dog learns the commands from only one person, in only one situation. We all know dogs perform commands better for their "person" than they do for others so it's very likely that even if your son did try to issue a command the dog would blow him off. I would probably advise a set of "family" commands in English and a set of "competition" commands in German.

All of my dogs are also my pets. They are wonderful well trained companions, social, and stable, and easily taken into public without concern of them mauling anyone. Although be advised. While a SchH dog can be an awesome pet, SchH puppies can be difficult to deal with. You do not generally raise them in the same way you would a typical pet puppy. Generally they have less "manners" training. You don't teach a lot of bite inhibition because they have to be comfortable using their mouths, so you just sort of deal and redirect to a toy. They have to be comfortable and confident making body contact and pushing people around, so you can encourage and reinforce sitting and appropriate behavior but if they jump on you you can't go crazy and yell at them. So if you decide to go that route everyone needs to be on board.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

VaBeachFamily said:


> You can bring up the point that... in Schutzhund, it is a sport.. more like a game to the dog. Many Schutzhund dogs, even Sch III, are great family dogs. Number one, you need to have control of your son, and then you won't have to worry about it. Then, you have to explain that the dog is working FOR the sleeve. There are many Schutzhund dogs that won't just BITE someone, unless they have the sleeve on. it is never hidden, it is always prodominate and known.


I don't like using this excuse though because it isn't always (and shouldn't be) true. Bitework is not a "sport" to my dog (agility, fetch, dock diving...those are sports to him) and he couldn't care less about a sleeve. The sleeve is not what makes the bitework be bitework. My dog bites because his foundation has taught him that biting the sleeve and bringing courage and fight is what diffuses the threat. He does not bark at a sleeve or carry it back to the helper for tug.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A LOT of people have this misconception about SchH protection work. It really is a misconception and (I suppose with the exception of a very few cases of poorly temperamented dogs and really bad training) for the most part it is a misconception and nothing more.

But, it's also one of those things that you're not likely to change someone's mind about just with words. Best answer is to visit some SchH clubs, bring wife along and let her meet the dogs, see the work in person, and talk to the owners. I don't know too many holders of this misconception who were convinced otherwise just on the words of others. But can't think of any off the top of my head who were *not* convinced otherwise once they got to see it in person.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

....such a pity maybe your wife will be the exception


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Dogs are very situational. I doubt the dog would respond to a child's recitation of a command by acting on it in a non-schutzhund situation. There are many cues to the dog as to when the action is on. 

But, if you are going to train in schutzhund, the dog is being trained to bite, so that should not be completely discounted. With any animal, you have the responsibility to keep all concerned safe.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Samba said:


> Dogs are very situational. I doubt the dog would respond to a child's recitation of a command by acting on it in a non-schutzhund situation. There are many cues to the dog as to when the action is on.


The next time you see a dog that can't work on a strange field remember the above quote. A dog should understand that when he hears a command he should respond anytime and anywhere with the correct behavior, context be damned. 

If I stand in an empty parking lot, without a soul in sight, and tell my 19 month old dog to alert he will start looking around for someone to work. When someone comes into his view he will focus his aggression at that person. He doesn't give a *&%$ if they have a sleeve or agitate him, he just wants to bite them because he loves to bite and I told him it's time to work. 

Am I just a crazy guy that wants a mean dog? No. I want a dog that I can take anywhere in the world, trial and nothing about the situation will phase him. He hears the command and understands what his job is. He doesn't care if he's in a stadium. He doesn't care if the helper has the sleeve on the left arm. He doesn't care if the helper is another color than he's accustomed to. He doesn't care that the field is gravel. He should only care that I gave him the green light.

If the dog is well suited for the work and trained correctly the dog should respond to the child command with aggression. If you don't want that, don't open Pandora's box.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Fast said:


> The next time you see a dog that can't work on a strange field remember the above quote. A dog should understand that when he hears a command he should respond anytime and anywhere with the correct behavior, context be damned.
> 
> If I stand in an empty parking lot, without a soul in sight, and tell my 19 month old dog to alert he will start looking around for someone to work. When someone comes into his view he will focus his aggression at that person. He doesn't give a *&%$ if they have a sleeve or agitate him, he just wants to bite them because he loves to bite and I told him it's time to work.
> 
> ...


Going to disagree. And not saying that you are wrong in what you want...but that it is a question of training and a question of what the job is. 

Not trying to open up the Sport vs Real debate again...but it is possible to have a wonderful, good scoring dog to compete with, that is not crazy aggressive. Dogs require context and learning. If you only ever train on your own field, then you probably will not be able to trial your dog anywhere. No different than if you only ever tell you dog to sit in the kitchen...changing locations requires training. Now. If you go to a new field, but the equipment looks similar and the helper acts similar the dog is still relying on context. Even if you lose the sleeve, and go with a suit or a undercover arm, the first time the helper will act in a manner that helps the dog to understand what is going on and perhaps "present" the arm to show the dog what to do. 

The average person trains on a field, with a helper (usually male) with equipment, with his adult handler. To expect that dog to make an immediate jump (hypothetical situation) with the command to aggress given by a child who is the non-typical handler at a soccer game on another child just for fun to show off the dog seems to be a bit unreasonable because there is *no actual threat* and the person has not done any training to indicate to the dog that it is supposed to aggress out of a particular context. We're not talking about PPD or Police K9s that have to go regardless and are taught to do so. I have a SchH3 male who has a very high threshold for defense and alot of prey drive. He would need an actual threat before he would decide it was go time. Heck, he barely sits for someone who is not his handler, so I cannot imagine that he'd launch into protection mode on commands for someone else. He's always V'd in protection (when he would out  and maintain control) and I've not the least bit of concern about him in a family situation. These kind of dogs- while perhaps not everyone's cup of tea- are not uncommon in SchH and appropriate to the situation that the OP was talking about.

Of course it is also important that in nay case you are teaching the dog how to bite as well as when to bite and that he can bite. You have to use common sense, be alert to your dog and the situations he is in. If you cannot trust your son with the dog, don't let him have it unsupervised.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Actually, what a dog needs is proper temperament . When they have that, none of this is a concern. The GSD was designed to be a dog that had the ability to distinguish a threat from a non-threat. Most dogs will not respond to the commands of children, they "know better" than that meaning a child, ( most of them anyway), does not have what it takes to command a dog to do much of anything. However, if they did and there was a threat there, A GSD with the correct temperament would probably act before the command was given and would escalate his aggression based on the amount of threat if there was one. This ability really doesn't have a **** of a lot to do with SchH. It is the genetics of the dog.

SchH, in it's original form, re-enforced this ability in the dogs. Meaning, it re-enforced the judgment of the dog by making it clear when it is appropriate to bite and to be aggressive. The best dogs will escalate based on the level of threat. That means if the threat becomes passive the dog may simply hold him at bay by barking and so on.


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## showshepherds4me (Jun 2, 2010)

Take your wife with you to a Schutzhund club training. Also there is no "word" in ScHh to attack or bite out of the routine. A personal protection dog, yes, but in ScHh the dog trains to attack the helper when he is threatening. Your kid could tell your ScHh dog to revere or packen all day long and the dog would not do anything. ScHh dogs are great family pets because the OB is intense and is a huge part of protection. In a ScHh 1 there are only 4 sleeve bites and a whole lot more tracking and OB. There are plenty of horror stories about ScHh dogs attacking the spouse of the handler and they are not true. My titled ScHh dog is a HOT and he is a family pet. Even when stupid people wrap stuff around their arm and call hime, he does not engage. As a handler, before you do protection, you amp the dog up. You let them watch the last long bite. They know the difference between the field and home.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you all for your thoughts and information, but it appears that this is a discussion I have lost. Just the same, I do have a fantastic pup, and cannot wait to see what comes from it..


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

See you have been well trained after all


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

holland said:


> See you have been well trained after all


SADLY.....


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Be careful what you wish for


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## HMV (May 17, 2010)

The question is this, If the dog does attack someone and you haven't done schutzhund training how confident are you at recalling it in an environment you haven't practiced? or How will the dog attack someone? if the dog is Schutzhund trained it will most likely go for the arm (stopping the accurate use of a weapon in the attackers hand), if not it will most likely bite any part of the body it can get it's teeth into. Remember Schutzhund is German for Protection dog, NOT attack dog.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

Carefull what I wish for?? 

I think the whole reason that I was considering the shutzhund was for the training and fun of the pup.. there are other ways to go. 

I agree HMV on most of what you say, but at the same token, there are other liabilites to having a trained dog, insurance is just one of them. EVEN THOUGH, my opinion, a trained dog would be a safer bet for an insurance company, they dont see it that way.. 

Neither here nor there, we are going a different route. And Hunter will still be a fantastic dog!!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I remember a TV show from when I was a kid. It is vague. The people on it had a protection trained dog who belonged to anther guy. They stumbled upon the command..."cochise" and the dog went off. Really not too likely to happen though funny on TV.

Anne is right in that the dog's aren't machines and they do think about the situation they are in. 

If you don't desire a dog who might protect and bite, then training aside, a German Shepherd is capable of doing that.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

I am very aware of this, and have no doubt in the ability of the dog to think for his self. Thank you for your advice though.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> there are other liabilites to having a trained dog, insurance is just one of them. EVEN THOUGH, my opinion, a trained dog would be a safer bet for an insurane company, they dont see it that way..


 
I am a trainer here in the somewhat idiotic state of California. I have been asked to verify that a dog has been trained for people looking to buy insurance and told by my clients that some ask for CGCs and the like. So, some insurance companies do care if the dog is trained. They are talking about obedience and temperament testing but that is a very big part of SchH,. Having said that, you will always lose in court, in any part of this country now, if your dog bites someone, trained or not. You can thank the AR crowd and the lawyers for that. I will always error on the side of training though, especially training that re-enforces the behavior of only responding to a threat and to respond to that threat by escalating or de-escalating aggressive behavior based on the changing level of threat. If you don't know much about SchH in the first place, it is hard to consider the exercises and how that plays exactly into what I am saying. From the hold and bark where the dog cannot bite a passive suspect to the out where he must let go when the "bad guy" gives up and the obedience in between. 

All that considered, if you are someone who worries about the scenarios you listed, then you probably should not do SchH. These things have a way of becoming self fulfilling prophecies when people over-think and worry too much about situations that are unlikely to happen. 

My first SchH 3 dog was a VERY protective dog off the SchH field. He protected me in real life a number of times. One time in particular I gave credit to his training for not biting someone. I was walking alone with my dog along a river near my home when I turned a corner and out came a rather frightening looking man from behind a bush. My dog raced up to him and held him there at that bush with a rather impressive hold and bark. I instructed the man to hold still or he would be bitten. He complied while I walked to my car which was about a football field away . Vandal continued to bark and hold him there while I did this. Once I got to my car and got the door open, I called him to me, he came immediately. No one was hurt, including me.

I have a deep appreciation for dogs like he was and that was more of a genetic thing than the training but SchH did teach that dog what to do in certain situations. Depends how you train in SchH nowadays and of course, whether you have a German Shepherd with the correct temperament . Vandal was also a dog who was absolutely reliable with children and he loved kittens. He was a real German Shepherd but there are less of those nowadays.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you for your experience.

I am sorry if I was not clear though. I have a pretty good feel for a well trained GS. I have had plenty of time with dogs during their training, and during their bite work. I AGREE that a trained dog is the best way to go. I also believe in their natural ability to protect, ( again my reasoning behind training ). 

Thank you again.. Have a great day!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

just another truck said:


> My wife is concerned with Schutzhund. She is afraid of the bite work. My best explanation I could come up with is a dog that is taught to bite when I say bite, is better then a dog who bites when he feels like bitting. ( to me, this says, and well trained dog is less likely to feel that he has to bite ).
> 
> My wifes then comes back with.. what if your son decides to show off, and sends the dog??
> 
> ...


I can understand where your wife is coming from. I was concerned about bite work before we started. I started training for SchH when my dog was an adult. I was concerned that it would make him more aggressive/dominant at home. I have found the opposite to be true. Now that he has an outlet for his drive he is actually more calm at home. The extra obedience training and the confidence that he has built through SchH training alsomakes him act better in public, calmer more reserved. Not that he had PROBLEMS with this in the past, I just see an improvement.

I don't think that your wife will change her mind unless she has a chance to observe the training and meet the dogs who are participating. I had the impression that protection trained dogs were very serious, dominant super dogs. When I first visited our club, I was pleasantly surprised to see that these dogs were the same friendly, happy goofballs that my dog is. 

As for the concern that your son will give the command to show off, I agree with what others have said about training your son as well. But, IMO the dog is not likely to comply with your son giving a bite command.
1. He would not be the dog's primary trainer. I can give you an example from our indoor OB class. Bison was working off leash and I told him he could go over and get a drink. For some reason, one of the people in the class wanted to try giving him commands. They tried to call him over to them like I do. Bison just looked at her like she lost her mind. (which was pretty much the case.)
2. Dogs are pretty smart. Unless there is a real problem, the dog would understand that it isn't an appropriate time to bite. There is no threat and no sleeve.
3. Hopefully in this scenario, you would be there so even if he DID start to comply with your son's command, a simple "No" or "Down" command would prevent the dog from continuing.

If you are really interested in SchH, I would recommend visiting a club with your wife so she can see what it is all about.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Fast said:


> The next time you see a dog that can't work on a strange field remember the above quote. A dog should understand that when he hears a command he should respond anytime and anywhere with the correct behavior, context be damned.
> 
> If I stand in an empty parking lot, without a soul in sight, and tell my 19 month old dog to alert he will start looking around for someone to work. When someone comes into his view he will focus his aggression at that person. He doesn't give a *&%$ if they have a sleeve or agitate him, he just wants to bite them because he loves to bite and I told him it's time to work.
> 
> ...


Sounds more like you have (want?) a PPD rather than a SchH dog. SchH is or should be a sport not out and out protection!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

One of the funny things is outsiders think SchH people walk around with these dogs that will do anything their handlers say and attack on command (even if unprovoked) ... 

If that's true, how come when I go to training I see people ready to tear their hair out because the dog can't/won't/isn't doing x, y, z?


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## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Jason L said:


> One of the funny things is outsiders think SchH people walk around with these dogs that will do anything their handlers say and attack on command (even if unprovoked) ...
> 
> If that's true, how come when I go to training I see people ready to tear their hair out because the dog can't/won't/isn't doing x, y, z?


Because Schutzhund (it's proper name is Schutzdienst, Schutzhund just refers to the dog not the whole sport) is competition based and just like any other sport why settle for 90 points if you believe the dog and handler are capable of 100 points. Everybody is in it to win it, that's why the half of them are tearing their hair out. (only some of them don't realize the fault lies with the one on the field with two legs not four)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

codmaster said:


> SchH is or should be a sport not out and out protection!


SchH is supposed to be a breed test. That is how it originated. And while certainly the majority of people seem to approach it from a sport aspect these days, and as such that is what it has sort of morphed into, it can still be a breed test and there are some who still view it and utilize it as such. And as a breed test, one of it's purposes is to identify dogs who have the genetic temperament to do real protection work in an appropriate, controlled manner. 

In today's SchH, people can participate on a variety of levels with different goals and dogs without an ounce of true protection ability can be pretty successful. And I guess from the sport, something fun to do with the dog standpoint that's fine. But if someone like Fast wants a dog who will do it for real, has a dog with those genetics and training, then IMO that is really closer to the way the whole thing was designed to be in the first place. Certainly most people do not want that and participate on a sport/hobby level. But because that is what most do doesn't make it correct or Fast's outlook on the whole thing incorrect.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> The next time you see a dog that can't work on a strange field remember the above quote. A dog should understand that when he hears a command he should respond anytime and anywhere with the correct behavior, context be damned.
> 
> If I stand in an empty parking lot, without a soul in sight, and tell my 19 month old dog to alert he will start looking around for someone to work. When someone comes into his view he will focus his aggression at that person. He doesn't give a *&%$ if they have a sleeve or agitate him, he just wants to bite them because he loves to bite and I told him it's time to work.
> 
> ...


Fast,

I didn't see your post until it was re-quoted. I understand what you are saying here. I also think the dog should bite on command without a sleeve present. But, I wonder in the scenario that was described. There are two elements missing one, the handler giving the command, a threat. 

I just wonder if a dog would bite in that situation. I could see if the dog was told by his handler to bite and the person wasn't showing a treat as you described in your thread. My dog does his best to comply with MY commands, even if they don't make sense, but not so much for my DH. If it doesn't "make sense" to him or even sometimes when it does, he looks for my permission first. I could also see the dog biting if there was a treat but it isn't the handler giving the command. The dogs instinct and training would kick in and he would act on the threat.

I know there are many dogs that are the exception and I am really inexperienced, but I would find it surprising for a well trained dog to react with both the handler and the threat missing from the equation. Am I completely mistaken?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I think Anne summed it up very well, as usual.

Some dogs will protect for real. Some will not. There are high scoring SchH dogs who will not, low scoring SchH dogs who will, and pets lying around on couches who never did formal protection in their lives who would rise to the occasion if needed. This ultimately comes down to who the dog is, not his training.

Training doesn't change who the dog is. What it does is allow the handler to more fully understand who the dog is, so the handler's expectations are more in line with reality. It gives the dog the confidence, skills and judgement to respond appropriately and not overreact if a situation should arise. And it gives the handler control over the dog even in highly distracting, confusing or stressful situations.

As for a kid being able to sick the dog on his buddies to show off.... not going to happen. Lack of true threat, being commanded by a child, at another child? Nope.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> I know there are many dogs that are the exception and I am really inexperienced, but I would find it surprising for a well trained dog to react with both the handler and the threat missing from the equation. Am I completely mistaken?


I don't think you are truly mistaken. I just think you are not seeing the big picture.

When I tell my dog to alert he knows that there is a threat. He believes his handler. He doesn't need to see the helper jumping around, cracking the whip, dressed in appropriate attire. All he needs is to hear me tell him that there is a threat. 

And those of you that feel that this is outside of sport work are being a little myopic also. I understand if you plan to only trial in local club events that this is not a very important thing. But if you want to take your dog to any trial, anywhere, like I do, you are at a disadvantage letting the dog decide when to aggress or not. I teach my dog this for points!

The first championship I did my dog had problems in protection. He was flown across the country. Put in a rental car and hotel all week, and worked on strange helpers and fields for 3 days before the trial. This was all new stuff for the both of us. On trial day my dog ran the blinds and ran right past the helper. I had to resend him to the blind. He figured out what he was supposed to do and went on to do a pretty kick ass routine. Judge said that all the points lost, except two, where lost because of this screw-up. The problem was that my dog didn't know that he was doing protection. I learned from that experience and taught my dog a queue for protection and never had that issue again.

Further, if you are not in control of when your dog becomes aggressive, who is? The dog? What I'm hearing from most of you is that you let the dog decide. The dog sees the equipment and field and starts the aggression. I don't allow this after the foundation work. At a certain point my dog is only allowed to become aggressive if I give him the queue. Will your dog see a guy in overalls and a cast on his arm trying to wave you down because you dropped your wallet, as a threat? He looks like a typical schutzhund helper.

Now on to the kid giving the dog commands. You are very naive to believe the dog won't listen to the kid. Will the kid not be able to tell the dog to sit while at home? Will the kid not be able to play with the dog? If he can command the dog to sit in the house what makes you think that the dog is not going to listen to him on the street? 

Look at all of the police dogs and sportdogs that are sold to new handlers. Most of these dogs will work for a new handler quite well after a few weeks. What leads you to believe that a dog won't work for the kid that he grew up with?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> .
> 
> As for a kid being able to sick the dog on his buddies to show off.... not going to happen. Lack of true threat, being commanded by a child, at another child? Nope.


As the child of a trainer of GSDs, I have to tell you Chris that you are sooooooo wrong. 

Would you you put your house up as collateral for liability?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Jason L said:


> One of the funny things is outsiders think SchH people walk around with these dogs that will do anything their handlers say and attack on command (even if unprovoked) ...
> 
> If that's true, how come when I go to training I see people ready to tear their hair out because the dog can't/won't/isn't doing x, y, z?



For the same reason not every dog gets 100pt protection scores. Holes in the training or temperament in the dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...Muck boots...the high ones


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

......Make sense...... Dont understand 

Nevermind, that person's comment disappeared


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Fast said:


> For the same reason not every dog gets 100pt protection scores. Holes in the training or temperament in the dog.


That's my point about the original question that started the thread. It takes the right dog and a good handler to get to that point where a dog will actively aggress even if the command is given by someone else and no obvious threat is present.

Most of us newcomers who are just learning about the sports don't really need to worry ourselves about that!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> What I'm hearing from most of you is that you let the dog decide. The dog sees the equipment and field and starts the aggression. I don't allow this after the foundation work. At a certain point my dog is only allowed to become aggressive if I give him the queue. Will your dog see a guy in overalls and a cast on his arm trying to wave you down because you dropped your wallet, as a threat? He looks like a typical schutzhund helper.


No one else does either Fast. Your dog has to be under control when you heel out on the field and the blind search is part of that also. If your dog is not clued in by the blinds, it is no wonder that he couldn't find the helper in one.
As for the guy in the cast, that comes down , once again, to the TEMPERAMENT OF THE DOG!! The dog must have the ability to think before he acts.

Most dogs do not view children as someone to listen to. They do not view children as the boss, they view them more as equals and will choose to not listen nine times out of ten. Of course, we have the example of the seven year old out there at the recent SchH Championship but I am pretty certain some adult helped her "re-enforce" her commands to the dog.
If the dog has the proper temperament and is not trained to just attack anything on command, ( that is a temperament problem if you ask me), the dog would respond to a command to be aggressive with the proper level of aggression....meaning based on the level of threat. Little to no threat, little to no reaction. 

It is also not so much about "leaving it up to the dog" but you SHOULD have a dog who has enough of the correct temperament to be able to THINK before he acts and to produce the proper level of aggression based on the level of that threat. Also, in your scenario, I guess your dog will run right by the threat if you don't tell him to do something? What good is that? I didn't see the guy in the bush at first, Vandal did and then did what he was trained to do using the genetics he was born with. He responded perfectly. That was not a normal situation with a guy there "hiding" but he didn't bite him, he held him there. Vandal also reacted on his own when some guy tried to open my car door at 2 am when I was sitting at a light in Los Angeles. I didn't see him, Vandal did though and that put an end to that guy's desire to sit shotgun. I sure would not want a dog that had to be commanded to see things as threats or who would bring way too much aggression from that command.That, IMO, is very dangerous.

See, this is the problem nowadays. People want to say everything is training now and seem to infer that it is not about the dog's temperament. SchH was supposed to test that ability of the dogs to "think" and react in an appropriate manner but now we hear how the dog must be commanded to find the bad guy. I have seen Dobermans and different breeds run right past the helper in SchH. IMO, that is a temperament thing, it is in their genetics that they can get distracted. Nerves perhaps, I have not contemplated what that is because I don't have interest in that breed of dog . 

I know how long and hard Fast can debate and I may not have time to respond but I just wish more people would consider who the dog is because failing to do that has led the German Shepherd, ( not talking about Mals Fast), to a not so good place.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Jason L said:


> That's my point about the original question that started the thread. It takes the right dog and a good handler to get to that point where a dog will actively aggress even if the command is given by someone else and no obvious threat is present.
> 
> Most of us newcomers who are just learning about the sports don't really need to worry ourselves about that!


Even the worst handlers can can work with good helpers


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Fast said:


> As the child of a trainer of GSDs, I have to tell you Chris that you are sooooooo wrong.


I'll go with there are exceptions to prove every rule. 

The 6yo girl who has come to club training with her mom since toddlerhood and been raised with these dogs to the point where she has an understanding and authority around dogs to rival that of many adults, probably could too. But not at another child. Honestly, I'd seriously question the temperament of a dog who could be commanded to attack a harmless child, regardless of training.

But I think the "child of a trainer of GSDs" is a very different situation than a normal kid in a normal household of non-dog trainers where dad wants to go do SchH with the new GSD pup as a hobby.

Dogs recognize kids as kids, and give them little authority. It's a rare dog who will really listen to a kid, and a rare kid who can truly command a dog. Sadly, it's a rare SchH dog today who would respond in the situation you described even if given a real threat and a real (adult) handler. Even if all that was in place, it is a rare dog who would attack a child. At least the sort of attack we're talking about here.

And beyond that, it is ultimately up to the handler how the dog is trained. Even if the dog had the temperament to do all of the above, if someone wants to do SchH as a sport and hobby with the family pet and not have the possibility of that type of scenario ever arise, it's not that difficult to keep Pandora's box closed just through the training methods chosen.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> I know how long and hard Fast can debate and I may not have time to respond but I just wish more people would consider who the dog is because failing to do that has led the German Shepherd, ( not talking about Mals Fast), to a not so good place.


For sake of argument let's assume that you are correct about temperament. How many people have you known that have a GSD with a near perfect temperament? Of those people how many were first time GSD owners? Let's face the facts, most people have dogs with temperament faults. And the best way to make up for a deficit in temperament is with training.

Right or wrong most people are not using schutzhund as a breed test. You and I both know this. What I am talking about getting points in a trial.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, I would never want a dog that would just do anything I say at any time to any person. Same reason that I don't want a dog that is so overly hyped up in prey for a ball or tug or sleeve that he is not really *thinking* while he is being trained. I want a dog that is smart enough to know the difference. My dog and I work as a TEAM. Our training is more about learning to work together than me commanding my dog to always do exactly as I please. I will not command him to do something that is against his nature (like training him so that a small child could command him to attack another child with no threat present). I expect my dog to know when I am wrong and to even refuse me. Protection work is an extreme example, but another example would be a few weeks ago we were tracking and I had no visual of the track. My dog made a sharp turn and I verbally corrected him, only to then realize that I was wrong, he turned correctly even though I thought the turn was still 5 feed ahead. Luckily I only verbally corrected him and immediately changed to calmly praising him and moving on. He was right all along. His protection training is about a threat, not about following a command (I don't command him to bite) or obsessing over a sleeve. Just as I expect my dog to make a turn on a track even if I'm mistaken, I expect my dog to bring a fight to a real threat so long as there is actually one present. I can't make my dog track a turn that isn't there and I won't make him bring a fight against someone that poses no threat whatsoever.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> Dogs recognize kids as kids, and give them little authority. It's a rare dog who will really listen to a kid,


I think you are right up to point. But I work with kids and dogs everyday. And when the kid commands the dog to do something the dog loves to do it's amazing how quick they are to do it. 





> And beyond that, it is ultimately up to the handler how the dog is trained. Even if the dog had the temperament to do all of the above, if someone wants to do SchH as a sport and hobby with the family pet and not have the possibility of that type of scenario ever arise, it's not that difficult to keep Pandora's box closed just through the training methods chosen.


The problem with that is that the OP is a newbie. And they have no idea what type of training produces what type of dog.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> I don't think you are truly mistaken. I just think you are not seeing the big picture.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]When I tell my dog to alert he knows that there is a threat. He believes his handler. He doesn't need to see the helper jumping around, cracking the whip, dressed in appropriate attire. All he needs is to hear me tell him that there is a threat.
> 
> ...


I think that is exactly the point. You train the dog when it is appropriate to bite and when it is not. YOU decide. I think it is also naive to believe that a dog is NOT going to react on a treat that it perceives without your permission. 

Simple silly example: We were at a parade this weekend. Bison kept looking at this baby that was with her family several feet away. He was entralled. He really liked her. The baby's father started playing "monster" with her and pretended that he was attacking the baby. Bison jumped to his feet into alert posture. He had the look like he was going to go into a hold and bark when I said, "No, its ok. Platz". He listened and relaxed some, but he still kept an eye on the guy.

Fact of the matter is I want my dog to do BOTH. I want him to obey me, but I want him to be able to determine a threat on his own too. What if I am walking down a dark street and he sees something I don't. I want him to alert to it, not wait for me to tell him to.



Fast said:


> Now on to the kid giving the dog commands. You are very naive to believe the dog won't listen to the kid. Will the kid not be able to tell the dog to sit while at home? Will the kid not be able to play with the dog? If he can command the dog to sit in the house what makes you think that the dog is not going to listen to him on the street?
> 
> Look at all of the police dogs and sportdogs that are sold to new handlers. Most of these dogs will work for a new handler quite well after a few weeks. What leads you to believe that a dog won't work for the kid that he grew up with?


Mmmm...naive maybe. Inexperienced, definately. I just don't see sit and bite as the same type of command. The dog is in a different state of mind. I guess I will continue to observe and learn. Maybe my opinion will change, but frankly, I don't want a dog who doesn't have the brain to know better than to bite a child on the command of someone who isn't his handler.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> For sake of argument let's assume that you are correct about temperament. How many people have you known that have a GSD with a near perfect temperament? Of those people how many were first time GSD owners? Let's face the facts, most people have dogs with temperament faults. And the best way to make up for a deficit in temperament is with training.


You can never "make up" for poor temperament by training....and since you brought it up, I have seen alot less "perfect" dogs lately. Whch is all the more reason to NOT train them in the fashion you suggest.

If SchH had stayed more true to it's purpose, we would maybe not see so many "not so perfect" GSDs but unfortunately it didn't. It is disturbing to see so many people claim they "know" their dogs because of SchH when that is just laughable most of the time. You won't know how clear your dog stays when he becomes aggressive unless you WORK him in a way where he uses that aggression. In case people forgot, the GSD is an aggressive, protective breed...or at least he is supposed to be. 
Also, you may have noticed that I mentioned how Vandal came back to me immediately when I called him. THAT is something that is extremely important that people just do not appreciate as much nowadays. This ability to hear and comply with the handler without the use of electronics etc. Another genetic trait being bred away in pursuit of "titles". I am not talking about lowering the drive level to get compliance either. I am talking about a dog who can display very strong aggression, be it barking or biting , ( again when appropriate), but comply immediately when told to stop or return to the handler. Some will think that just not possible because they have never owned a dog that can do it. They exist, but they are not as valued because people think they can just train it. 
Think about the exercises in SchH and picture a dog who really means business doing it. If people think hard about this they can understand that it was once a very smart test of the GSD.

Thank you Fast for debating, I love you ...and I mean that, if only in the most dysfunctional way.  

Back out to the dogs.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

Fast said:


> I think you are right up to point. But I work with kids and dogs everyday. And when the kid commands the dog to do something the dog loves to do it's amazing how quick they are to do it.
> 
> The problem with that is that the OP is a newbie. And they have no idea what type of training produces what type of dog.


On First comment, I agree. If the dog enjoys the bite, if not trained otherwise, will go for anyone sending him..I have been able to send another persons dog, but NOT while the handler was there, the dog looked for his permission first. The dog still bites for fun, and has not had incident enough for him to change his mind yet. Although he has been exposed to many. I am most likely the only bad guy that gets a big kiss after the bite to ( that was scary the first time)

Second comment, both right and wrong.. Although I have never been a Trainer of this art/sport. I have been around dogs trained to many levels and used on the training side of it. I have thrown a ball as the dog was about to set teeth in to me.. Want to see a handler in shock? 

I have a pretty good feel for it, and what ever question I had, I have the answer real close by.

As far as convincing my wife.. I do not have the comunication skills to convince her otherwise.

I am enjoying the reading on this, and am very happy I came accross this site.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

Vandal said:


> Also, you may have noticed that I mentioned how Vandal came back to me immediately when I called him. THAT is something that is extremely important that people just do not appreciate as much nowadays. This ability to hear and comply with the handler without the use of electronics etc. Another genetic trait being bred away in pursuit of "titles". I am not talking about lowering the drive level to get compliance either. I am talking about a dog who can display very strong aggression, be it barking or biting , ( again when appropriate), but comply immediately when told to stop or return to the handler. Some will think that just not possible because they have never owned a dog that can do it. They exist, but they are not as valued because people think they can just train it.


 
What is real cool about what you said here, is when the dog has been outed and he is less then a foot from you in the air, and he turns his head away from you, but still hits you with 85#'s..Not meaning to, but he is already airborne.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> His protection training is about a threat, not about following a command (I don't command him to bite) or obsessing over a sleeve. Just as I expect my dog to make a turn on a track even if I'm mistaken, I expect my dog to bring a fight to a real threat so long as there is actually one present.


Do you use a word to send your dog to the blind? If you do that's a command. 

Why does your dog bark in the blind? There is no threat. So is your dog only barking for the sleeve, like he would bark for his toy?

BTW, just because I can tell my do to get aggressive and he does, does not mean that he can't also see and respond to a threat.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> Mmmm...naive maybe. Inexperienced, definately. I just don't see sit and bite as the same type of command. The dog is in a different state of mind. I guess I will continue to observe and learn. Maybe my opinion will change, but frankly, I don't want a dog who doesn't have the brain to know better than to bite a child on the command of someone who isn't his handler.



FYI, Rin-Tin-Tin is only in the movies. 

And in 90% of homes the child IS the dogs handler. Kids are the ones that have the time and inclination to spend time with the dogs and the dogs form a tighter bond with them. I mentioned my dads dogs in a prior post. And I could not only send the dogs on any kid in the area I could also send them on my own dad. I got out of more spankings (yes, that used to be OK) than I can remember because he had to make sure that all the dogs were locked away in crates or kennels. By the time he got back he was out of the notion.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> FYI, Rin-Tin-Tin is only in the movies.


I have never seen a Rin-Tin-Tin movie, but there is one in my Netflix cue. I hear he was pretty cool. Seeing that I am 99.9% sure that Bison would not bite a child if someone gave him the bite command, and that makes him like Rin-Tin-tin, maybe he is a much better dog than I give him credit for. After all, he was sold to me as a pet home and he is doesn't even have a BH yet. If he is acting like Rin-Tin-Tin...

In all fareness though, I am only about 75% sure that he would bite on MY command if there were a real threat outside a training/trial situation. I have never had him in a situation close to one that would warrant me sending him for a bite and I hope I never am. I am just being a smart alec.

I think we are getting a little out of context anyway. In the OP's original scenario, I think there is little chance that his son could convince the dog to bite someone. Certainly not a high enough chance to prevent him from training for SchH.

I know, just my opinion, but that is the beauty of a forum, I can share it even if everyone else thinks it isn't a good one. :smirk:


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## showshepherds4me (Jun 2, 2010)

My dog can amp up if threatened and will to protect me just like he attacks the threat on the SchH field. The part that is important is the ability and training to call the dog in that amped agressive state and have them obey. That's training. I have German show shepherds that come from SchH breeders. The puppies with the most drive are sold to SchH homes and the others will be pet homes. American GSDs generally do not make SchH dogs even at a club level. The dog has to have the drive and temperment for SchH. Obedience is essential for this breed no matter what you are doing with the dog. I believe also that even the family pet would become agressive under threat. The SchH clubs I belong to, everyone trials. There are many other places to train for OB or agility or whatever. SchH is not for everyone or every dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It all boils down to the dogs temperament and genetics.
A dog trained in SchH will usually be reliable in listening and following commands in real life situations because of the extensive training.
I trust the one who I train in the sport vs the two I don't, they are more of a liability in everyday life, because they don't have the temperament to be a SchH dog, regardless of their training.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I have thrown a ball as the dog was about to set teeth in to me.. Want to see a handler in shock?


I remember talking with a couple LEO K9 handlers and they said if you want to distract the dog as a criminal, just throw a ball the opposite way...not sure if it would work in all circumstances, but most of them are so ball driven, they would probably pause and decide which would be the better reward...bite the bad guy or chase the ball.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

I dunno if anyone agrees... BUT
If someone has this outlook on Schutzhund, then they really have no right out there training a dog for it. That is asking for trouble.. and a very misunderstood dog later in life..


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Lots of people have misconceptions about what shutzhund is and part of the role of a club is to educate people about what schutzhund is. Everyone has a right to train their dog--not neccessarily in schutzhund as you have to become a member of a club. Not understanding schutzhund does not imply that you will have trouble or the dog will be misunderstood. There are people outside of the schutzhund venue who are very knowledgeable and can help you train your dog~


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

As said it all boils down to a stable temperment...that and the right training are a pretty safe bet.............

i agree a totally "solid" the total package is hard to find nowdays..

so, again it comes down to picking the right genetic line......


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I remember talking with a couple LEO K9 handlers and they said if you want to distract the dog as a criminal, just throw a ball the opposite way...not sure if it would work in all circumstances, but most of them are so ball driven, they would probably pause and decide which would be the better reward...bite the bad guy or chase the ball.


 


After a few corrections though, most learn NOT to go after the ball,unless it is the handler that hands it to them.

It can be rough on the dog though, because many of these dogs are used for "rescue". So, being the person they are looking for, I was to hand them a toy the moment they find me. This would keep them from finding me, and giving me a bite.

In a bad guy role, I lay a track and hide, with a sleeve or suit. In a search, I lay a track with out the sleeve, and have a ball for the reward. 

That is why I believe the dogs are so easily distracted on a bite.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> I remember talking with a couple LEO K9 handlers and they said if you want to distract the dog as a criminal, just throw a ball the opposite way...not sure if it would work in all circumstances, but most of them are so ball driven


What a load. I would love to know what they based their observations on. Maybe they are only basing this on their department's dogs. 

I'm sure the LEO was quick to tell you that his dog would NEVER chase the ball though:laugh:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> It all boils down to the dogs temperament and genetics.


If it were all about temperament and genetics a dog could go out untrained and get 300pt. 

Temperament and genetics only opens the door to training. Without training the dog is not worth anything in a working situation. You can take a dog with the best genetics and without training, the dog is little more than a couch warming, poop dispenser.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A dog with bad genetics & temperament won't go far in SchH, that was my point...of course it goes without saying training is the key


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> A dog with bad genetics & temperament won't go far in SchH, that was my point...of course it goes without saying training is the key


There are dogs with horrible temperament that compete at the very highest levels of the sport. This is what Anne (Vandal) has been railing against forever on this forum.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fast, my comments are based on the OP's original post. You take one sentence, then criticize, not just mine but others in this thread.
If you had put up my whole quote instead of one sentence, it stated that I trust the one I train in SchH more than the two that don't have the temperament for it. I wouldn't waste my time trying to get the other two titled.


> It all boils down to the dogs temperament and genetics.
> A dog trained in SchH will usually be reliable in listening and following commands in real life situations because of the extensive training.
> I trust the one who I train in the sport vs the two I don't, they are more of a liability in everyday life, because they don't have the temperament to be a SchH dog, regardless of their training.





vandal said:


> Actually, what a dog needs is proper temperament . When they have that, none of this is a concern. The GSD was designed to be a dog that had the ability to distinguish a threat from a non-threat. Most dogs will not respond to the commands of children, they "know better" than that meaning a child, ( most of them anyway), does not have what it takes to command a dog to do much of anything. However, if they did and there was a threat there, A GSD with the correct temperament would probably act before the command was given and would escalate his aggression based on the amount of threat if there was one. This ability really doesn't have a **** of a lot to do with SchH. It is the genetics of the dog.
> 
> SchH, in it's original form, re-enforced this ability in the dogs. Meaning, it re-enforced the judgment of the dog by making it clear when it is appropriate to bite and to be aggressive. The best dogs will escalate based on the level of threat. That means if the threat becomes passive the dog may simply hold him at bay by barking and so on.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Back to the original post Its irrelevant whether you do schutzhund or not. Even dogs with a good temperment bite. Children need to be taught how to be around dogs whether that happens at a schutzhund club or somewhere else. I can't stand kids who whine around dogs


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

holland said:


> Back to the original post Its irrelevant whether you do schutzhund or not. Even dogs with a good temperment bite. Children need to be taught how to be around dogs whether that happens at a schutzhund club or somewhere else. I can't stand kids who whine around dogs


Okay, reading my original post.. what has this post have to do with the thread?

On to the subject you are covering, I agree that children need to learn how to approach dogs ( as do most adults ). But since I have seen no classes to be taken on the subject, then I guess it will be my job to inform others how to approach My Dog. 

As far as Children whining.. I guess this is just like chewing on furniture, or yelping in a cage, or mouthing a person. For most children, they grow out of it.. Most. Others continue to look for some kind of venue to continue to whine at..normally youll find them at your work place..


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

holland said:


> Back to the original post Its irrelevant whether you do schutzhund or not. Even dogs with a good temperment bite. Children need to be taught how to be around dogs whether that happens at a schutzhund club or somewhere else. I can't stand kids who whine around dogs


Dogs also need to be taught to be around kids, don't you think? 

"Kids whining around dogs" - wonder what you mean by this, never seen this with my dogs. I have seen kids getting all excited and screeching and yelling around dogs but not so much whining.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Pat, just curious. How old is your son? My daughter (now 13) has been handling her dog at weekly Schutzhund practice for the past 2 or 3 years. Since her dad is one of the helpers, then he is on the field with her, or I am if he's not. My son (now 19) who never really expressed an interest in Schutzhund has starting training as a helper this summer. We have multiple families in our club whose children are excited and involved with their dogs. Of course they have to learn the obedience and tracking along with the protection work. Both of my children have had it drilled into their heads from the time they could understand that the dogs are not toys or weapons that they can play around with. Just like a hot stove, a sharp knife or the car keys, we have made it clear that this is not negotiable. We also NEVER leave the dogs unsupervised with the kids when they have friends over, but this applies to all of our dogs, not just the ones trained in Schutzhund. Mostly because I don't trust the friends to be dog savvy (since they usually aren't and think it is fun to scream and run away from big dogs) and I don't want to have to be constantly watching for them to mistreat my dogs. 
I know you've made your decision, but I'm just saying for the record that for us, Schutzhund has become a great family sport. If nothing else, I know where my kids are every Thursday and Sunday nights! My son even travels 2 hours home from college to make Sunday practice during the school year.
Annette


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

Hello Annette,

My Two Boys are 7 and 2. And like you, we do not allow the dog anywhere with out one of us.. especially when the friends are over. As of right now though, it is because of the pup.. Running child, he will chase..


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