# How much money should I be making if I want to become a breeder?



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I am wondering how much money I should be making if I want to become a good reputable breeder. Like having health tested and titled dogs that I plan to work with myself, and breeding equipment. Is there anything else I'm missing?

I was also wondering, are there any jobs I should look into more because I want to become a breeder?

I'm thinking about becoming an occupational therapist, so that I can help people and have the money to breed dogs.

Thank you!!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeah, find a good breeder to follow, and expect to make nearly nothing initially!

As you gain in knowledge and experience, continue with low expectations of what you will make!
Even experienced dog breeders, who test, train and trial their dogs, they really make very little if they're doing it right, it has to be a passion! 

****, doesn't sound all that attractive does it? But it is if you have the bug...it's all consuming! Breed to the standard always, not the current market! 

I've been around a few years, been involved with several breeders and many many trainers - many of whom, I thought were "full of it".

If you love dogs and this breed, follow your gut! Some care, some don't. 

Honestly, my advise is spend tiime with the dogs, let them teach ya!

That's the best advice I have...


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Truly, they're lucky to make some money back. So many thing can go wrong. Mom could need a c section, puppy could have something wrong with it (PRAA for example, - $4k surgery right there) and you choose to save rather than euth, or develop something later in life (HD/ED/Pannus/etc. My female, for example, Mild SAS - given half price puppy. Wasn't even in the contract) that, depending on your contract, you might have to give compensation for. 
I've personally seen things go wrong and the breeder having to spend thousands to save a litter, puppy or the dam (whelps half the litte and has to have c-section to save the rest, incision gets infected - emergency vet for emergency spay, etc). Definitely not for the lighthearted. 

If you get a puppy with the idea of breeding, you have to be prepared to give this dog up if it doesn't pass health screenings. Not all homes have unlimited pet space. Some people or their families get upset over rehoming, too. There's training, trialing, the health testing itself, feeding, vetting (dam and litter), all of this costs money.

If you're REALLY interested in breeding, find a mentor and spend time with the breed - train and trial your dogs. A mentor can guide you, help you pick the right stud for your female, offer advice during whelping and raising of a litter, etc. Training and Trialing your dogs will give you experience. You'll learn things you like and don't like about your dog (her strengths and weaknesses), prove her worth (conformation champion or IGP3), and you'll get to see other dogs and learn about them.

Good luck! There's a lot that goes into it if you want to do it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Do you mean what your annual income should be before you start breeding or what your financial assets are?


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Our entire working lives have been spent in the animal industry. The only people we knew that made money on those animals were the people who provided services for them, not the owners. Vets, trainers, groomers, boarding facilities, feed dealers, people in those fields profited to differing degrees. The owners lost money, hands down, even when their animals sold for six figures or more. The cost of getting them to be worth that amount far exceeded what they were paid for them, if and when they decided to sell. 

Most weren't in it to make money, but for the pleasure of owning exceptional animals. They didn't need the money and could afford to pursue those goals. And these people were not even the breeders. They bought those animals from someone else who was losing money breeding them. At least then, they could pick and choose the ones with the most potential for fulfilling their goals. 

Breeding and training any animal is very expensive. Just maintaining them well is not cheap. Then there are accidents and injuries and illnesses, even sudden deaths, all those things almost always unexpected, in addition to the routine vet care. 

Honestly, I wouldn't expect to make any money breeding any animal. There are just too many expenses involved in creating a breed worthy animal.

I may be completely misinterpreting your question and you are asking how much income you need to be able to support a breeding operation, as Chip said. Sorry if I'm heading down the wrong road here.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Do you mean what your annual income should be before you start breeding or what your financial assets are?


That's how I read it too. I dont think OP is talking about how much he/she might make breeding. But rather how much he/she ought ro be making at the other job to support the breeding hobby

I probably spend close to the amt on my dogs as a breeder would. We compete a lot and do more health testing than the average pet home by far.

Unfortunately (or fortunately lol) I really don't know what I spend on my dogs. I know my income is pretty low. But I spend almost nothing on myself. I'm super low maintenance....was cutting my hair at home way before corona.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I don't think they were asking about making money, they are asking how much they need to have to become a good breeder. In addition to the money you also need the physical space, I don't think the typical suburban house and yard will do. You also need to check local laws. My town does not allow more than three dogs unless you are a licensed breeder.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I think you guys are correct. I completely missed the point of the question here! Sorry for getting so far off track.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There are a handful of responsible breeders who can make a profit by having a large number of breeding dogs, but they are financially well off to begin with and are involved for the enjoyment, contributing to the betterment of the breed and making some extra money is a bonus. I would say the main value for the typically, responsible breeder is to try to improve the gene pool and to obtain the best of the type of dog they are striving to produce for themselves so they don't have to rely on a quest.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sorry. I can't stop laughing at this question as the thousands and thousands of $$ just to get my dog titled are going thru my head.

Reputable breeders do not breed for money. They breed because they have a dog that is breed worthy and will maintain the breed standard for future generations.

So my suggestion is start your journey with the best female you can find. Do your research, find one with a good mother line, find good trainers. Take that dog as far as you can. Then decide if she is breed worthy. You may make some money in the end. Or you may owe money. You just never know.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It’s hard to give an exact number on how much money you’d need. I would be prepared to take care of the entire litter through adulthood.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Based on some of your other posts, I’d say you’re at least 5-10yrs out from your first litter if that and there are just too many factors to consider between now and then that simply aren’t known. Cost of living wherever you decide to live, spouse/children... and a host of other things that aren’t dog related.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm going to throw a hard number out there of approximately what you need to be earning to breed, just for fun. $45,000 or more annually. And live a frugal life. With ideally no close neighbors, a fenced yard, kennels, a whelping area in your home, etc. That is the lowest I would go. 

Other things to consider before you breed are owning a home (not renting), living in an area where breeding is legal (this can be harder to find these days), having a good relationship with a vet who supports breeders (also hard to find). A job that doesn't require a ton of extra time - like that actually is/can be 40 hours a week, and that's it, is ideal. Lots of jobs expect or even require a bunch of extra commitment over those 40 hours, and that can be very difficult to balance. 

That is just the tip of it- all the other stuff like health testing, titling, making sure the genetic match will produce what you want, finding appropriate homes, etc etc etc are the hard parts.

Occupational therapist may be a good fit. There is some flexibility, there is high demand, and the pay is good. It also doesn't require things like 12 hour shifts with possible overtime in addition, like nursing (at least I don't think it does) so that is in your favor.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a related question though. Why is it apparently so taboo to make money breeding/selling dogs?

I used to breed goats. Held my breeding program to a very high standard. I cared very much where they were all sold to, and vetted buyers. I made money on my herd. I priced the kids accordingly so it was profitable. After all the work I put in, health testing the herd, maintaining biosecurity, putting the does on milk test to prove their milking ability...we did so much more than the majority of people breeding goats in the area.

People paid the price. I'm not sorry. Sometimes I think breeders ought to charge what their dogs are really worth so they don't have to just break even or lose money on a breeding program.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I completely agree with the above. Doctors make money, it doesn't mean they don't care. So do teachers (same). But if a breeder makes a bit of money, it seems to be vilified- often. It doesn't make sense.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Although you see this a lot with vets being accused of price-gauging for a buck, too. Which isn't true in my experience, despite vets being expensive. Vets should make a good living, for what they do, in my opinion. A very tough job.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

I don't think that people are saying that it wrong to make a profit. I think they are saying that by the time you add up all of the costs; vets, health clearances, training, trialing, travel, hotel/motel, gas, stud fees, registration fees, club fees,food and likely a number that I have missed, that there is not much if any profit given the market price of a good GSD.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jorski- I think that is very true for most small hobby breeders. But it can depend. 

If you have a litter of 8 (not unusual), and sell pups for $2,500 each (not unusual), that is $20 K. If you breed three times, with the same average litter size and price, that is $60 K. Seems at that point, a profit is likely. 

Even at $1,500 a pup. that's $12 K a litter, and $36 K for three litters. Still seems likely to make a profit off that individual female.

Of course, these are idealized numbers. 

People who make a profit that I know generally import titled or bred females (and the occasional male stud), sell pups, and sell the female. Repeat. It's a broker mostly but it does pay the bills as a business.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jorski said:


> I don't think that people are saying that it wrong to make a profit. I think they are saying that by the time you add up all of the costs; vets, health clearances, training, trialing, travel, hotel/motel, gas, stud fees, registration fees, club fees,food and likely a number that I have missed, that there is not much if any profit given the market price of a good GSD.



I understand that. I guess on the one hand I feel like maybe the market price should be higher, then. On the other hand, if that person is enough of a dog person that they were going to title, test and compete their dogs anyway then the breeding just pays for their hobby to then be free. Because a lot of people do a lot of that stuff regardless. 

I also know how fast and hard it can go south as I had 2 emergency C sections in my goat herd. Both does were saved, neither kid made it, but all of them would have died had I not paid big bucks to save the does. I never wanted to breed either one again-- although I feel certain it was a single buck's fault because he was prone to throwing huge singleton kids that couldn't birth normally. He was homozygous for blue eyes so I know for sure that he was the daddy of those big singletons. I also castrated him, placed all 3 as pets, and lost a HUGE amount of money on that whole debacle. I could have had a way more profitable year that year if I hadn't paid to save those does. And maybe that's where profit becomes a dirty word with animals. Because people start to think that somehow the animals will suffer if you profit off of them.

For me, my feelings are way too strong to ever be able to put money before a life. One of those does I had raised from a baby, the other was fairly new to me but still-- I can't look into the eyes of an animal begging for help and not help it. I came off the money, did all the exhausting aftercare to get them healthy. 

If anything I'd say my animals had a better life because I tried to profit off of it and was mostly successful. I knew even though it would suck, that I could afford to take both those girls right in for an emergency surgery.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think it's wrong to make a profit. I know breeders that make a profit. But those are also from females that are titled to a 3. These are people that train dogs for a living. That takes a lot of money to get to that point. Money and TIME. Lots of time. If you don't want to train and title your dogs, you'll be able to make lots of money. Or you can train dogs for a living and do it in conjunction with training. But hobby breeders that work another career, typically have to sacrifice quality or the money. I don't believe hobby breeders who have another career make money when all things are considered.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Yeah, find a good breeder to follow, and expect to make nearly nothing initially!
> 
> As you gain in knowledge and experience, continue with low expectations of what you will make!
> Even experienced dog breeders, who test, train and trial their dogs, they really make very little if they're doing it right, it has to be a passion!
> ...


Okay.

I have the passion for it! 

Okay👍 That was something else I was wondering, some breeders seem to be following trends or something? What's up with that?

Oh, really?🤔🧐 that's really interesting. I'm not going to be a "full of it" trainer or breeder. Did you work with just German Shepherd breeders and trainers or other breeders and trainers? Can I PM you please?

I do love dogs😍 I have been doing so well with my Standard Poodle that I have been thinking about volunteering at a rescue to help and work with different dog breeds and mixes.

Thank you, very much, for your response, Tim! Okay, I will😁


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Katsugsd said:


> Truly, they're lucky to make some money back. So many thing can go wrong. Mom could need a c section, puppy could have something wrong with it (PRAA for example, - $4k surgery right there) and you choose to save rather than euth, or develop something later in life (HD/ED/Pannus/etc. My female, for example, Mild SAS - given half price puppy. Wasn't even in the contract) that, depending on your contract, you might have to give compensation for.
> I've personally seen things go wrong and the breeder having to spend thousands to save a litter, puppy or the dam (whelps half the litte and has to have c-section to save the rest, incision gets infected - emergency vet for emergency spay, etc). Definitely not for the lighthearted.
> 
> If you get a puppy with the idea of breeding, you have to be prepared to give this dog up if it doesn't pass health screenings. Not all homes have unlimited pet space. Some people or their families get upset over rehoming, too. There's training, trialing, the health testing itself, feeding, vetting (dam and litter), all of this costs money.
> ...


Okay, thank you!! I have been trying to find a mentor, and I haven't heard back from one who I was going to meet with after the pandemic is over. Just to clarify, I want to breed Australian Shepherds, but I asked this on here because there's quite a few breeders on here, and there isn't an Australian Shepherd forum like how here and Poodle Forum are.😔


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Do you mean what your annual income should be before you start breeding or what your financial assets are?


Yeah, I meant what should my annual income be before I start breeding😀


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Titling a dog is expensive. If you are doing IGP, which I believe you mentioned before, then you can't do this alone. You need a trainer and you need a club. I think before you look at annual income, you need to look at what it costs to train.

1.) If breeding is your goal, then find the best female puppy you can. Expect to spend $2k. Also be realistic in that you may have to wash her and never breed her.
2.) Find a club and trainer. Figure out what it will cost you to train this dog from foundation to a 3. 
3.) Trial cost. - local trials with a hotel room will costs a few hundred with trial prep, entry fee, and hotel/food. Upper level trials will cost closer to $1k for the same.
4.) health testing. $500 for xrays. Cost to send to SV or OFA. DM and any other genetic testing = Embark test is $200 max.

I spend about $200-400 monthly to train my dog. That includes the gas to and from my trainers and lessons. 

Then with the money, you have to have the time. When I was getting Seger ready to trial we trained every day. This year has been weird with Faren but I expect to get on schedule and hope to get her BH and 1 this year. Your second dog will costs less than your first to train because you now a little something but you will still have high training costs as you learn. 

IMO, this is what you need to be looking at. Can you afford to train, regardless of your income? Are you willing to take longer to get there (less money at a time)? Or will you train in a different venue that is less expensive?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My dog’s breeder made money but I never asked how much. She titled over 30 dogs in IPO/IGE/Sch going back to a time when it was much different than it is now and is very experienced She knows pedigrees and what her dogs throw, and can tell before breeding a particular pair exactly what she will end up with. And still there are unexpected challenges, like having a streak when three dogs in a row lost their litters So she had an extended period of time with no litters. 

She did as much of her own vetting as she could. It would help to have some vet tech experience if you want to be able to give shots, and other things that add up costs. You should know how to whelp your own litters as long as surgery isn’t required. My neighbor had a rare breed and a condition of buying a female was to keep her intact and breed one litter. At the last minute, her dog was in distress, she panicked and went to the ER. Nearly all her profits went to pay the vet bill for what turned out to be a normal birth. If she had prior breeding training she could have done it herself. It was her only litter.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Shadow Shep said:


> Can I PM you please?


Sure!


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Pawsed said:


> Our entire working lives have been spent in the animal industry. The only people we knew that made money on those animals were the people who provided services for them, not the owners. Vets, trainers, groomers, boarding facilities, feed dealers, people in those fields profited to differing degrees. The owners lost money, hands down, even when their animals sold for six figures or more. The cost of getting them to be worth that amount far exceeded what they were paid for them, if and when they decided to sell.
> 
> Most weren't in it to make money, but for the pleasure of owning exceptional animals. They didn't need the money and could afford to pursue those goals. And these people were not even the breeders. They bought those animals from someone else who was losing money breeding them. At least then, they could pick and choose the ones with the most potential for fulfilling their goals.
> 
> ...


Okay, thank you! I do not expect nor want to make money from breeding. I was asking how much money I should be making already to become a breeder. It's okay!😀


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

drparker151 said:


> I don't think they were asking about making money, they are asking how much they need to have to become a good breeder. In addition to the money you also need the physical space, I don't think the typical suburban house and yard will do. You also need to check local laws. My town does not allow more than three dogs unless you are a licensed breeder.


Whoa, I didn't know that! Okay, thank you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

One breeder told me, "Breeding is not for the faint of heart' as she had almost lost her female and all of the litter but one pup in a C section.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

I think most reputable breeders are in it to promote the best in the breed, not so much for the money.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wanted a pup from my deceased Karlo.
I paid about 1000 bucks for the past 5 years for the semen analysis(and storage). I paid for the whole breeding after finding a breeder that would invest in him. The female complemented him well. First breeding did not take and we did all the things..... Tried on her next cycle(thank God the breeder was on board with it) progesterone, IVF, ultrasound and xray. Probably due to the timing of ovulation, repro vet was off by hours. …..a singleton pup was conceived via xray. Frozen is only viable for 24 hours.
So, then I pay for a scheduled C-section, as single pups get large, hard to whelp naturally do to the size and progesterone level at welp.
Mom overcleaned pup within his first 24 hours, so tissue damage happened to pups sheath. Even with a singleton, there may be a lack of calcium which makes the mom a bit off and anxious. That knowledge and experience can be invaluable, and even with experience, there can be issues.
Breeder put in extra time to express him due to scar tissue building up at the opening. I got him at 5 weeks and continued to do what was necessary for his health until he had his surgery at 6 weeks. I paid for surgical reconstruction of that sheath injury with a repro vet.
Praise God that my dream pup is healthy, and of great temperament, confident and so far an excellent working prospect. He will be a year old in a week, and I am super happy with him. I wish there would have been more pups in his litter to share our progress and compare the size, etc. that litter owners do.

If you are set on breeding, please put about 20K away for the unexpected... this is possibly an extreme story, but it is what breeders deal with. Don't think breeding is a money making endeavor. If you breed, you should invest any profit back into the program you are developing for the next three generations of your foundation program. And have a goal for your programs direction. Every breeding should be goal oriented with a pup or two held back to further your goals/program direction.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

onyx'girl said:


> I wanted a pup from my deceased Karlo.
> I paid about 1000 bucks for the past 5 years for the semen analysis(and storage). I paid for the whole breeding after finding a breeder that would invest in him. The female complemented him well. First breeding did not take and we did all the things..... Tried on her next cycle(thank God the breeder was on board with it) progesterone, IVF, ultrasound and xray. Probably due to the timing of ovulation, repro vet was off by hours. …..a singleton pup was conceived via xray. Frozen is only viable for 24 hours.
> So, then I pay for a scheduled C-section, as single pups get large, hard to whelp naturally do to the size and progesterone level at welp.
> Mom overcleaned pup within his first 24 hours, so tissue damage happened to pups sheath. Even with a singleton, there may be a lack of calcium which makes the mom a bit off and anxious. That knowledge and experience can be invaluable, and even with experience, there can be issues.
> ...


Okay, thank you, so much for the response!! Can you share pics of him please?


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Thank you, everyone for chiming in!! I really appreciate your help, and advice. I still can't find Aussie breeders close to work for, but I will try other breeders who are not Aussie breeders for now to work for while I continue to research the breed and find more Aussie breeders and get ready for school.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Shadow Shep said:


> Okay, thank you! I do not expect nor want to make money from breeding. I was asking how much money I should be making already to become a breeder. It's okay!😀


That question is really specific to where you live. Cost of living in the US varies so much, and that should be factored in. Someone earlier mentioned at least $45,000. You couldn’t buy a house with that income in the Bay Area, where I live, not even a crappy house with a tiny yard where drive by shootings are common. In some parts of the country you might be able to buy a decent house in a safe neighborhood with some land.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That question is really specific to where you live. Cost of living in the US varies so much, and that should be factored in. Someone earlier mentioned at least $45,000. You couldn’t buy a house with that income in the Bay Area, where I live, not even a crappy house with a tiny yard where drive by shootings are common. In some parts of the country you might be able to buy a decent house in a safe neighborhood with some land.


Indeed. And where you find a lower cost of living, often times the salaries are lower too, depending on the field. Also think, the more remote you live the less resources / access to trainers, clubs, events, puppy buyers etc. Travel expenses will go up.

So again, too many unknowns at this point in your life but you’ve been provided good information to consider.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Karlo's photos and pedigree can be viewed on his breeders website. Gideon vom Wildhaus: (Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

onyx'girl said:


> Karlo's photos and pedigree can be viewed on his breeders website. Gideon vom Wildhaus: (Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)


Thank you!


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## FTurner90 (Aug 4, 2020)

Have you managed to get better prices recently? I have about 3 shepherds I'm trying to train now and sell. It's really a shame to not get at least the same value or at least half of the money you spent to get them grown. It kind of pisses me off to be honest. It has become one of the reasons I feel more and more the need of starting my own blog that gives people an insight to such issues, and it's one of the best side hustles you can have at the moment with the Internet glory that we are witnessing. So by getting help from money geek I am about to launch my site and start my journey into a writing gig.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

FTurner90 said:


> Have you managed to get better prices recently? I have about 3 shepherds I'm trying to train now and sell. It's really a shame to not get at least the same value or at least half of the money you spent to get them grown. It kind of pisses me off to be honest. It has become one of the reasons I feel more and more the need of starting my own blog that gives people an insight to such issues, and it's one of the best side hustles you can have at the moment with the Internet glory that we are witnessing. So by getting help from money geek I am about to launch my site and start my journey into a writing gig.


For what? How much money I need to become a breeder? Good breeders don't really make money from their dogs. They do it because they are passionate about the breed and improving it if it needs to be improved. I will become an OT because it pays well. I think we saw the same blog on Money Geek.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Shadow Shep said:


> For what? How much money I need to become a breeder? Good breeders don't really make money from their dogs. They do it because they are passionate about the breed and improving it if it needs to be improved. I will become an OT because it pays well. I think we saw the same blog on Money Geek.


Spam


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Shadow Shep said:


> Okay.
> 
> I have the passion for it!
> 
> ...


 PM me anytime! The breeders were all GSD breeders, yes. I have good friends who bred poodles, and Golden Retrievers though. I spent a couple years working with Gun dogs too, and had an Uncle who bred Labs. So, far from GSD specific when it comes to training.

Rescues and Humane Societies usually are happy for the help, so that's a great place to start.


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## chrisrizzo (9 mo ago)

Shadow Shep said:


> For what? How much money I need to become a breeder? Good breeders don't really make money from their dogs. They do it because they are passionate about the breed and improving it if it needs to be improved. I will become an OT because it pays well. I think we saw the same blog on Fit My Money.


I agree with your statement. I really appreciate help, and advice from this community.


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