# Pros and cons of Schutzhund?



## —GSD/Lover— (Jan 15, 2021)

What are the pros and cons of Schutzhund training?


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

pros. Even getting the very first level, the BH, you learn so so so much valuable information.
If you find a club that is a good match you get to hang out with dog people who understand.
cons. Takes lots and lots and lots of time.
The higher in levels you go the bigger the egos you have to deal with. 
Your first dog may do OK but you'll be craving to get an even better puppy next time.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cons: Expense, Time. Schutzhund is like learning to color between the lines all over again. It's hard. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

Pros: The relationship you build with your dog is incredibly rewarding. All the little moments where you can see what you want click. The friendships you build in a very small community. That feeling when you take the field and you KNOW that your dog is ON before you get to the judge and when you finish you know your dog rocked it. Learning to enjoy the moment with the dog you have and the accomplishments you as a team have earned. Learning to take a step back and analyze the situation that is going wrong and that it's ok to change directions. Learning to stay in the moment and not sweat tomorrows. Learning to take input from everyone and put the ego aside to really absorb what they are saying.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

There are cons?? 😉

yeah, it takes over your life.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

it is sooo hard to quit. When you have to retire a dog due to either health, injury or just plain age, better have an up and comer or you will go through withdrawals. We've been spoiled by some really low fuel prices in the past couple years. I use to spend more on fuel than the club fees and I think that will happen once again come summer. So $$$ going out of your pocket is a con of course.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It has become contrived and significantly less demanding from its origins.More often than not, you devote a great deal of time and money to obtain titles in a protection sport and end up with a dog that won't actually protect.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Cons: 

It's a huge financial expense.. I actually pay more to train and compete in IGP each year than I do in rent. Gas, seminars, private sessions, club dues, did I mention gas? 

Injuries will happen at some point, if they don't, then consider yourself extremely lucky. Set aside a fund or get good pet insurance. 

Time. Oh gosh... Get acquainted with your car. You will be spending a lot of time in it traveling around. Days at the field. Evenings "perfecting" excerises. Reading, listening and studying different methods.

Pros:
The relationship you create with your working partner is like no other... It makes it all worth it.

Friendships formed, knowledge shared and gained... That feeling of accomplishment....

It is so worth every dollar or minute spent.

But most importantly... Your relationship with your dog.. I can't put into words what that feels like..


----------



## BobbyShermanice (Jul 25, 2019)

The most definitive answer is "it depends". IPO 1 is more advanced than AKC Canine Good Citizen award and well worth the effort. That being said, some apartment complexes accept the AKC award in evaluating approval of a prospective applicant's dog and have no idea what Schutzhund is. If the leasing agent Google's it, they inevitably will be directed to a youtube video of bite work. You can guess the outcome of that.

The best course of action is to get with an experienced Schutzhund trainer and evaluate the dog. If the dog demonstrates the temperament for it and you have the time and money, go for it. If the dog doesn't enjoy it, forcing it could result in behavioral issues.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Cons: It takes up some time. Tracking can be very time consuming and it’s not always easy to find a good spot. The better you want to do, the more time you’ll end up training. It can get pricey on you fast. On the low end, not counting food or replacing things that break like leashes or gas, I was at 300 a year for club dues. On the high end
with trainer visits, I am closer to 3 grand a year.
Pros: The best dog trainers I’ve ever met were in schutzhund. The best dogs (training wise) I’ve ever met were in schutzhund. I learned a lot of theories and concepts in schutzhund training that I probably never would have otherwise. It gives you a structured set of goals to work towards with your dog. You will gain a far deeper understanding of your dog and his psychology working in schutzhund. You will see your dog begin to enjoy completely mundane things like walking next to you. A lot of things you learn will transfer over to other things with your dog. It’s an enjoyable experience (most of the time) working with your dog. You can meet a variety of different dogs, especially German shepherds and get a deeper understanding of the breed.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It has become contrived and significantly less demanding from its origins.More often than not, you devote a great deal of time and money to obtain titles in a protection sport and end up with a dog that won't actually protect.


please....come to my club and put that theory to the test. Not sure where you are training, but most of the dogs I know (in the clubs around me as well) have dogs that are well bred, well trained and and are excellent at protecting their property and their people.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What is the objective evidence? Know of any dogs that have bitten intruders?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Please start a new thread about the pros and cons of training for PSA rather than criticising the people that prefer a different sport.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is the objective evidence? Know of any dogs that have bitten intruders?


 Ask Brian Harvey why people do not invade his place. Ask many others that train in the sport why their homes aren't a target for intruding. LOL. My own dogs would not allow anyone they don't know past the door. Deterrent is the reason we have this breed. Stop trying to make your sport better than another. It doesn't matter when it comes to the word 'sport' or 'Real' dogs, blah blah blah. We've heard it all before.


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

- Pros: As said many times already, the relationship. It really is amazing. Even just working towards a starting goal of BH, I have learned so much about dogs, drives and how we interact with our dogs. The relationship I have with my IGP dog is more than I could ever imagine having with a dog and I thought I had great relationships with my dogs before him. Also, the friendships from within the community, humbling nature of the sport and the mentoring I have experienced have been wonderful. 
That said you make what you want from your club.

-Cons: gas money, time and chance of injury. This is a full contact sport and injuries happen. It’s heartbreaking to see it happen to teams and you pray it doesn’t happen to your team.

(And I know this was asked in a different thread but some clubs provide the equipment (like collars, tugs and harnesses) that can be expensive so that can cut down on costs a lot)


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is the objective evidence? Know of any dogs that have bitten intruders?


indeed I do, Mine


----------



## BobbyShermanice (Jul 25, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is the objective evidence? Know of any dogs that have bitten intruders?


I don't know anybody that's ever shot an intruder. I still have a gun.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t know about intrude


Chip Blasiole said:


> What is the objective evidence? Know of any dogs that have bitten intruders?


i don’t understand the point of this question. I known dogs that have bite intruders. I’ve known dogs that bite people who weren’t intruders. As for schutzhund trained dogs, I can’t say I know any who have bitten intruders. I know of at least a few who have bitten people for real though.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Dogma, 
I never mentioned PSA in this thread. I was addressing the con of IGP being a protection sport that has little to nothing to do with a dog being civil or a test of man work as it was originally intended. If people enjoy doing the sport they most likely won’t be defensive if the sport has its critics. Being defensive reveals something about the person, not others’ views on the sport.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I’ll add the RV2000, the American Politiehund Association, and American Schutzhund(which IMO, is way too little way too late) did not develop out of a vacuum. About the only sports left that are designed to select dogs as potential man work candidates are KNPV and APA, it’s non Dutch counterpart. Most dogs that obtain a PH1 can obtain an IGPI but not vice versa. Most dogs with a PH1 are sold as police dog prospects and most dogs with an IGPI remain as family pets or try to obtain an IGP II or III as the end point and do not go into being an operational dog. The level of training experience of someone trying to put a PH1 on a dog is most often very higher than someone trying to put a IGPI on on a dog, many of which are the first dog they have trained in a bite work sport.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dogma,
> I never mentioned PSA in this thread. I was addressing the con of IGP being a protection sport that has little to nothing to do with a dog being civil or a test of man work as it was originally intended. If people enjoy doing the sport they most likely won’t be defensive if the sport has its critics. Being defensive reveals something about the person, not others’ views on the sport.


Actually what you were doing is the same in every thread. Put on your crown, get on your platform and blat the same ole same ole that you're known for. People are not "defensive", they are just sick of your constant derailing of any topic related to IPO to justify your own existence. Don't put your poor behavior back on the everyone else. You've been called out by mods before. You aren't a critic. You are just blatting. And nobody takes you seriously anymore. Which actually is to bad because I think you have knowledge, not as much as you think you have but you do have knowledge. It's just lost in rhetoric. Kind of like the dog next door that is always barking. 

So now this kid wanted to know pros and cons and instead of this youth, who is interested in dog sport, getting information, it's now YOUR thread for YOUR platform. You can apologize to the OP at any time. They deserve one from you.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip quite a few members follow your posts and videos and very much appreciate your knowledge and insight.Start your own ongoing thread.
Habitually crashing other member's threads is unnecessary.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Pros: It's a lot of fun. You will learn things about your dog. You will develop a bond with your dog that will go beyond words. You'll make some amazing friends.

Cons: Very time consuming. Takes over your life. Expensive! You will meet a lot of ****** lol. No more weekends. Your vacations become traveling to other clubs and events.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The topic is pros and cons of schutzhund. I am expressing my opinion of what I consider the major con of the sport which is it is considered a protection sport and has little to do with protection which I think is salient information for a newcomer to understand.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I would make the argument sports in general have very little to do with true protection. Points are the focus, therefore everything becomes conditioned. Patters are trained, exercises are broken down into 100 micro behaviors. They're trainers games. Whether or not a dog will be a protection dog or not is all about the individual dog, not the venue they're in. Just my two cents.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip we got it.Stop now and move on.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Dogma is defined as principles or rules that can’t be questioned.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Indeed.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Pros - it's a lot more fun than AKC obedience work; you meet more people, dogs seem to love it (they liked AKC, too but they love this)
Cons - eats money and time, makes me get up early on weekends. shows when Ive been slacking off


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cons....internet speak that is babble and not productive to real life training or experience.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I try to keep things simple. Black or white. Avoid "grey areas" whenever possible. I've pondered this can of worms in search of an easy answer. Berno -loves- to get the last word 






so I say, if your dog is having fun, you're doing it right!


----------



## Sabre's Mom (Jul 27, 2018)

Pros - 
My dog and I are having fun
Strengthening the relationship I have with my dog
It's easier on my body than SAR
Learning alternate ways to teach my dog how to do something 
Cons-
Time, travel, costs
Politics, just like anything dog related


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dogma,
> I never mentioned PSA in this thread. I was addressing the con of IGP being a protection sport that has little to nothing to do with a dog being civil or a test of man work as it was originally intended. If people enjoy doing the sport they most likely won’t be defensive if the sport has its critics. Being defensive reveals something about the person, not others’ views on the sport.


If IGP has nothing to do with real world suitability, I wonder why the pedigreed GSD's seen in law enforcement actually come from Schutzhund titled stock? 🤔


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Fewer and fewer working line dogs with IGP titles have the genetics for being very good police dogs due to selecting for sport traits over working character. People I know of in Europe breeding GSDs for police dogs have no interest in IGP titles and of course, the foundation lines of those dogs will likely go back to IGP/schH titled dogs, but the further back you go, the more the sport and dogs were different.See a lot of Dutch Mal X's as police dogs. Why so few GSDs in KNPV?


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"Military and police procurement is increasingly going to programs and breeds outside of the historical Schutzhund world, such as Malinois from KNPV or NVBK backgrounds. Watering down Schutzhund and transforming it to the more politically correct IPO ultimately depreciates the value of these dogs in the public mind, for the whole point for many civilian owners has always been the enhancement of their personal sense of vitality and masculinity through the ownership of a "real" police dog. You can famously fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but increasingly the public at large is coming to see the IPO breeding lines as counterfeit police dogs and taking their money elsewhere." Jim Engel


----------



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> "Military and police procurement is increasingly going to programs and breeds outside of the historical Schutzhund world, such as Malinois from KNPV or NVBK backgrounds. Watering down Schutzhund and transforming it to the more politically correct IPO ultimately depreciates the value of these dogs in the public mind, for the whole point for many civilian owners has always been the enhancement of their personal sense of vitality and masculinity through the ownership of a "real" police dog. You can famously fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but increasingly the public at large is coming to see the IPO breeding lines as counterfeit police dogs and taking their money elsewhere." Jim Engel


I have no dog in this fight, but what makes Jim Engel an expert? I like ipo so it’s what I do at the moment. Although there are things I wish were different 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Ha, Jim Engel blast from the past like 2002. Use to be in the same club with him years ago, he had bouviers and bred them. He claims to know everything and anything about dog’s. Last dog I seen him with was nervy nasty female, bit a few people and not a dog that should be on the field. No one would go on the field when he was out with his dog yet he claimed the fog was awesome. 
I think he wrote some books on dog training but he does not know everything like he claims he did way back when. Heavy hand as well.


----------



## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Ha, Jim Engel blast from the past like 2002. Use to be in the same club with him years ago, he had bouviers and bred them. He claims to know everything and anything about dog’s. Last dog I seen him with was nervy nasty female, bit a few people and not a dog that should be on the field. No one would go on the field when he was out with his dog yet he claimed the fog was awesome.
> I think he wrote some books on dog training but he does not know everything like he claims he did way back when. Heavy hand as well.


You just described the female of my dreams. LOL


----------



## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Jen84 said:


> You just described the female of my dreams. LOL


Not that one. She was a nerve bag.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Nscullin said:


> I have no dog in this fight, but what makes Jim Engel an expert? I like ipo so it’s what I do at the moment. Although there are things I wish were different


What discredits his observations? That someone on a discussion board said she thought he had a nervy dog in the past and didn't like the man? Why do you wish things were different in terms of doing IPO? My point is that a con of schutzhund/IGP is that it has strayed from its origins leading to a change in genetic selection which has harmed the GSD as a police and military dog. I believe that KNPV, and now, the American counterpart of American Politiehond Association (APA), are the only protection sports left whose goal is to select for dogs capable of excelling in police and military work. In KNPV, only a handful of GSDs obtain a PH1 annually. Part of that is likely due to the much lower percentage of GSDs that participate in KNPV and part of it is likely due to many GSDs are not capable of obtaining a PH1 which probably partially explains why so few participate in the sport. Look at Tiekerhook Kennels and how they market their dogs. I don't see any of them competing in their own backyard in KNPV. APA seems to be catching on in the US. Almost any novice with a mediocre dog can obtain an IGP title if they have access to at least decent training. That is why I say IGP has little to do with "real world suitability." it has largely become an outlet for pet owners and a few elite at the top, and even many of their dogs are top sport dogs lacking true working character.


----------

