# Would you breed YOUR dog?



## Castlemaid

For the sake of this discussion, include all your dogs, and assume your speutered pet is intact if any are fixed. 

Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself. 
There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING! Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it respectfully, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome. 

I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly. 

So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


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## Chicagocanine

I have no interest in breeding my dogs, assuming I had dogs who were breed-worthy.

Actually the only reason I even have Bianca is because she is spayed. She was supposed to be a breeding female, she was bought by her previous home as a Schutzhund/breeding prospect, was health-tested and had a good pedigree and so on. When she was to be bred, instead she got pyometra and had to be spayed. If not for that she would never have been available to me.


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## Chowgal

I wouldn't breed ANY of my dogs. Dixie and Jasper because they're not purebred anythings... Jasper is a lab/chow mix and Dixie is a GSD/Aussie/something or other mix. Also, Jasper has some aggression issues that I would be afraid would be passed on to his pups. 

And I wouldn't breed Tippsy even though she's a purebred chow and has an AMAZING temperament. She has some faults from the breed standard and all she could really provide for "betterment of the breed" is, as I said, her temperament.

Plus, I don't see myself qualified enough to breed dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA

I personally wouldn't want to be a breeder so no I wouldn't breed any of my females..

However, I honestly wish I'd left Dodge intact longer, and would have considered using him once on a really nice female (if we could have come to an agreement of course). I would have kept atleast two of them)

But no, I just don't have any desire to go thru all that breeders go thru, when it's easier for me to go buy one


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## Jessiewessie99

No I would not breed my dogs. Tanner came from a shelter, has an unknown passed so who knows what he would pass on to his offspring and has aggression issues with little dogs and has some faults. Molly is from a BYB/oops is skittish, and I know very little about her background(we have no pedigree) so who knows what she would pass on, plus her tail curls, so thats a fault. Neither are breeding quality and should not be bred.

Sure they would make cute pups, but that is NOT a reason to breed ANY dog. I volunteer at an animal shelter and would hate to see any of my dog's offspring end up their. Breeding dogs is no easy job.It takes time, dedication, and hard work.It takes alot to be a good breed. Breeding is not my cup of tea. I applaud the responsible and reputable breeders who do such a wonderful at breeding and know what they are doing to create amazing, healthy, and stable dogs.


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## sagelfn

No I would not breed my dog.

I love him. He is a great dog but not a great GSD. 

Even if he had great GSD temperament, conformation, titles, and a pedigree to back it up I don't know enough about lines, genetics, etc.. to produce good dogs. I would not be open to using him as a stud since I would have no control over how the puppies he produced were raised and placed.


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## 4TheDawgies

Veda my white shepherd? NOOOOOOOOOO WAYYYYY JOSE!!!!!! Dog has far to many problems. Thyroid issues, arthritis in her elbows at only 2 and 1/2 years old when she was x rayed for limping. Had very irregular heat cycles. Has Allergies. Not to mention her conformation is cruddy. 

Loki my Silver Sable?no. Although he is healthier than Veda. I feel he has nothing to offer to the gene pool. He has minor allergies. minor health issues although they are physical and I am not sure if they are genetic or not. He has a good temperament but there are still things in it that while I feel are not super bad, its not that great. He doesn't have a pedigree to match either. His conformation is ok but not that great. He has little things about him that added up make me say no.

Nina my pitbull- just for fun. If she was intact and I had a pedigree on her, I would highly contemplate breeding her. 
why? The dog has a phenomenal temperament. She can eat anything and crap a brick. No allergies, no health issues, no physical problems, has a rock solid temperament. If it was truly a possibility (aka she was in tact) I would do much more research to understand the breed better. I personally think she has all of the upsides of being a pitbull and none of the downsides. She is a heck of a dog with a lot to offer. 

Havoc my Black and red- maybe. If he passes health testing, earns titles, and matures into a nice dog who achieves good show ratings then yes he might be bred. If not, just a pet. He has phenomenal pigment, a very solid temperament. Good conformation. A good pedigree. great drives with good working ability. I think he has something to offer to the gene pool. But time will tell.


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## King&Skylar

Skylar is the most gorgeous, well behaved, easily trained dog ever, she's the sweetest German Shepherd and my baby and heart dog. I have her papers, both of her parents are well behaved and titled. 

No, I wouldn't breed her! There's too many things that could happen to her or the puppies, I'll leave breeding to the reputable breeders 
Also, she's already been spayed.


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## GSD MOM

Nellie is so smart and she is just amazing. But she also has EPI. Would never breed her but I would've loved to have more dogs like her lined up to raise for the rest of my life...


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## KZoppa

nope. Riley is mixed and as good a boy as he is most of the time, he's got some reactivity issues we havent been able to get past with him and Shasta, all i know is from when i met her parents. I dont think she's breed worthy. Zena no simply because of her hips. Shelby would have been a good breeder if i wanted to add more pathetically tempered fearful GSDs out in the world. Lookwise, Shelby was gorgeous and fit pretty well. Temperment heck no.


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## Rerun

No. I love all my dogs. they have GREAT qualities and traits that I love, or I wouldn't have them.

But with that said:

Dante has horrifically weak nerves

Micah is from an unknown background/breeder, somewhat weak nerves to what he perceives as the occasional scary object and whether or not this could've been altered if he'd been raised properly for the first two years (he's adopted) I don't know, but he has absolutely zero ball/tug drive. As in NONE. He's semi treat motivated and works for praise.

Akira has mild hip dysplasia, EPI, and allergies. So...a big NO there. Ironically, she came from a long established and careful breeding program.


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## JeffM

Nope, neither of them. Way to many health issues and makes me think they are from a 'weak' line; more than likely Mother side because Father has longer record of lineage and is a show dog. Mother is questionable.


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## CassandGunnar

I don't think so, for any of my dogs. I don't know anything about Cassie's background except for her being GSD/Belgian Mal cross.
I have the AKC information for Gunnar, but we never did anything with it. He is the results of two neighbors who owned "dogs with papers" and decided to make some money and have a litter. They made it just over 5 weeks before they turned the whole litter into a shelter.
He has excellent temperment and has been a dream to work with, but he still has his allergy problem and I don't know anything else about his lines.

Now, having said that, would I like another dog like Gunnar.........in a second!!!! I suppose I could try cloning?


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## GSD_Xander

Nope. 

I love Xander but I know he is not the best the breed has to offer so, even though he's my great family pet (what I wanted him for), I would not breed him...ever.


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## Pattycakes

No, I would not breed Uschi. 

I just don't feel I'm qualified to be a breeder and since she is primarily a "companion/pet" she isn't qualifed to be bred either.


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## Gilly1331

In a magical dream world I would love to have a litter from each of my two dogs bc their disposition, agility, conformation etc are wonderful and I would love to see it passed down in pups. But in the real world I would never breed either of them. I don't have any knowledge of breeding and what goes into it. I wouldn't want to chance my female coming up with some medical problem that could kill her, harm her or her litter. I would love to see what she would produce as she is an amazing dog all around but I just don't know enough plus shes spayed already. As far as my male I'd love him to sire something but again don't know enough about breeding, lines etc to know if that would be a good choice to put pups on the ground. He is intact and if a breeder just absolutly had to have pups from him I would want to make sure 100% everything would be ok on his end and the females end I wouldn't want anything to happen to the female he would breed either. 

Plus there are already so many amazing pups out there who need homes.


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## warpwr

We signed an agreement that if our breeder wants to have a litter with Miss Molly they can do that and we will get the pick of that litter. Covy-Tucker Hill Kennels Homepage So we would get another show GSD or there is some value there.
We agreed to keep her intact until they make their decision. I think by 18 months old or so. I assume this breeding would be done at the breeders kennel with a male of their choice and the litter born and cared for by them.
Ordinarily Diane and I would not do any dog breeding. 
We thought what we asked for was _pet quality_ but we wound up with _show quality_, it's a medium length story.
And Miss Molly _is_ a showoff. Why she just aced puppy school, doing everything perfect for her finals, haha. 
But to us she will just be a pet, although Diane wants to see about maybe getting therapy dog status for her.


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## shilohsmom

Never! Like I tell people I leave the breeding up to the experts. My dogs have wonderful pedigrees, hips, temperment, etc. but I'm not a breeder. My dogs are spayed/neutered because I don't want to risk their health to cancers that can affect those areas. Additionally, I would never risk the life of my female in giving birth. 

Besides if I ever did have puppies I'd never be able to adopt them out. I wouldn't be able to seperate myself from them and no one would meet my qualifications to adopt them so its much better this way. Some people might remember that I'm the one that reduces my work hours to part time for the first six months when I get a new 'baby'.....


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## bianca

I have to :rofl: at the thought of ever breeding Molly if she was still intact! Soft ears, eye issues (ongoing opthalmology care), tiny, fear issues which have just cropped up....she would be a disaster waiting to happen. Bettering the breed....making it worse! Aside from that, if she was near perfect in every way I would not consider it for a second - I know NOTHING about breeding and have no desire to


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## cshepherd9

Never in a million years. Willow has many issues- fear, anxious, reactive, etc. I have no idea about her background (rescue) so I couldn't say what kind of pedigree she has. 
Dallas is a mixed breed so no reason to breed her. Breeding is too much work and I am kinda lazy :laugh:


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## Franksmom

In a dream world where I had the money to keep any puppy that did not find a home from breeding my dog, and give them the best home they could have for life.
Plus all the money to do the research and health checks to find the right female to breed Frank too. 
If he did as well in Obedience as I think he's going to do, and proved himself in the ring with obedience titles.
If all those things were true then I would probably breed him at least once. 
I love his temperment and so far at a year old he's had no health problems at all. 

But since that is just the dream world Frank has been neutered.
*I hope the Obed. titles do come true but that would be it.


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## Mrs.K

Indra is most definitely breed-worthy and I am still debating whether I should or shouldn't... I know my father wants me to but... I just don't know. So many dogs are already out there and should I really contribute to that? Plus, she is still to young to be OFA'd and unless I have those results in my hands, I say I'm on the wall.


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## JKlatsky

I feel like I should start by saying that I am perhaps not as strict on "breeding programs" as others. I don't like everyone going to the big studs and I feel like different dogs have different things to offer and that a dog does not HAVE to be perfect in every category to have something to offer- If we only bred SchH2 KKL1 OFA excellent dogs I think the gene pool could get small. I don't have a problem when 2 handlers with working dogs get to know each other through the sport have the opportunity to get to know each and put their dogs together for a single litter- which they often sell out to other people they know in club. I realize that for some this might put them into a BYB category but I really don't think so...

I also have mostly males. My bitch is not breedable, and I am not about to pimp my boys out to anything with a uterus. 

Ike- In a heartbeat if I had a compatible female. One of the most clear-headed, big-hearted dogs I've had the pleasure to meet/work. Regional competeing multiple time SchH 3 FH KKL2 OFA'd dog. He had been bred before we got him and produced several active SAR dogs as well. I really don't think there's anything to dispute about that one.

Anka- Love her temperament and work ethic. But with a bad hip I couldn't/wouldn't. 

Argos- Would _consider_ it if the right bitch came along. He's shown some serious resiliency as my first dog, and has a lot of really admirable qualities in his work. We can attribute many of his problems to handler error.  Healthy and good Xrays. 

Cade- Nope-One retained testicle which was sad. Really awesome working dog and on the smaller side which I like. Good Xrays.

Tag- Not old enough to say yet. I have high hopes though. He's a really gorgeous red sable with excellent pigment and a nice sidegait and good prelim Xrays. He also has a lot of drive and energy and as he's maturing he continues to show great balance and confidence in his work. Also super stable in the nerve department. I would say that he's definitely a breedable prospect...but again I don't have a bitch and I wouldn't just take anything off the street. If there was a working bitch at one of the nearby clubs that was interested I would consider it once he was of age and had continued to go the way I see him. 

So with all the intact dogs I've had in my house for over 4 years now...I've yet to breed any of them. It's not a priority.


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## elisabeth_00117

Simple answer; *NO*.

I love my boy for who he is, but he is definitely not breed worthy.

Weak nerves, low threshold, not a great working dog although he is now giving it his all :wub:, excellent companion and "learning dog" for me but definitely not breed worthy.


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## 1der_girl

Nope. I don't know enough about conformation, genetics, whelping etc... and I don't have that kind of money. My girl Tober is a co-ownership with her breeder, though- and if all of her health checks come out ok and she's got a solid temperment and I title her (we're working on it!) then she may be bred- but by someone with WAY, WAY more experience than me.


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## lhczth

I only have one spayed "pet" female. That is Alexis. No, I would have never bred her. She is dysplastic. I have had other dogs over the years that were either intact or speutered and in some ways I wish I had felt I knew enough back when I had Tara. None of the others were suitable. I am very picky about what I will breed.


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## horsegirl

My Louie is a point away from his confirmation championship, I will then start herding and obedience with him. Even if he gets his CH , obedience titles and herding certificate and if he passed all health test, I will not breed him. He has great temperament and drive. Louie still is not what I would consider perfect. He does have a few confirmation faults and his father is basically the perfect GSD in my mind, I will let his father do what he does best , produce healthy, confident , driven, beautiful dogs.


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## Mrs.K

Explanation as of why I think Indra is breedworthy:

Rock Solid Nerves: Canon Fire, Fireworks, Malls, Busses, Trains, Malls, Restaurants, hundreds of People. Narrow Metal Grid Paths over fast running water where she can't turn around without falling into water (left and right open handles) and not every dog would go over these, no problems and issues whatsoever. Different surfaces, rubble.. no problems. 

She's got a hard, solid grip, is intelligent, great hunt/prey drive, high treshold, sound aggression and is a well balanced, solid, clear headed dog with a great pedigree. 

However, OFA is necessary, without that, no breeding. 
She is not the prettiest dog but she's definitely a heck of a working dog.


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## WarrantsWifey

Jazmine is our Mutt Pup. She is from the side of the road and a supposed Black lab/Golden retriever. I couldn't put more mutts out there, and not know where her pups were, EVER. 

Killian, is in tact, if let be, and he passes all the requirements. We will stud him, through the breeder....


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## Rei

No, I would not.

BUT it is not truly because of any fault Trent may or may not possess. For example, if he (or a carbon copy of him) were owned by an experienced breeder, someone who knows the breed and knows how to read pedigrees and find good breeding matches, and that person decided to breed him, I would have no qualms and may even be interested in a puppy. 

There are better dogs than Trent out there. Much better dogs. But he is not the worst of the worst, either. He would not hurt the gene pool, but he would not be a great benefit, either. His pedigree is okay, there is the absence of Fero and Troll and many of the other popular studs being linebred fairly closely on nowadays. Not great justification, but it's one thing to consider. He's not really my ideal German Shepherd, especially in comparison to his dam, sire, and his littermates. He was bought as the pet quality dog of the litter and his littermates are better sport and working dogs than he is. 

Because he is not my ideal, I would not personally breed him, ever. But is he the type of GSD that should never be bred, in my opinion? No, not at all.

He is a good dog. He would do well as a sport or working dog. A bit too much prey drive for my tastes, but still controllable and an excellent off switch. Amazing companion dog. Very, very solid nerves. Reacts quickly to perceived threats but immediately turns off when given the okay. Backfiring cars, gunshots, fireworks, never a problem. The first time he was exposed to fireworks was at a very large firework display and he did great, loved it, even. He just loves children, he's incredible sweet and gentle with them all the time, from the smallest of infants to rowdy ten year old kids screaming in his face. He is still a bit dog reactive (towards intact larger males) but we are working on that and he is improving. Health has been incredible, no problems with allergy or digestion. Conformation is no good, but he is solid and has a body that can match his mental stamina. 

So if someone had a dog that was a carbon copy of him and was a more knowledgeable, experienced person than I was, I would not have a problem if they wished to breed him. On the other hand, I would never ever consider breeding him myself. I can see how he can be another person's ideal, and while I love love love this dog like crazy, he is not exactly my ideal. I am not into the "only the best of the best" mentality, but there are certain things I want in a GSD, certain things I look for in a fully accurate representative, and if I ever bred a litter, I would apply those ideals.


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## Good_Karma

No, to both of my dogs. Rosa, our bionic puppy with her fake hip, would be a bad idea to breed. Niko, he is physically perfect (IMHO), but I'm not sure his temperament is. We are making huge strides with extra socialization, but perhaps a more solid-nerved dog would not need all the extra effort.

But if there was any possibility in this world that when Rosa and Niko pass on, that they could be reborn and live with me again I would gladly jump at the chance. Too bad stuff like that doesn't happen.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I have had a few people, "backyard" breeders approach me wanting me to stud my dog to them because he is beautiful, and he has his AKC papers but I have always said no. Not only would I not want to be responsible for puppies born into the care of people who have no concept of responsible breeding, or breed standards, but I don't feel that my dog is breeding material. He is extremely dominant, and we had to work alot on aggression issues when he was a little pup, as he wanted to dominate us, at any cost, but since he doesn't pay the bills-that wasn't going to happen. Anyhow, the people who used to bug me all the time with, "my dog is in heat, can you bring him by?" well I have news for them-I had him neutered!


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## sadie2010

Personally, no, I would not breed my dog. 

I feel there are too many dogs in shelters today that need forever homes. My GSD is a rescue and my next dog will be a rescue too.

I have nothing against breeders, if done properly, for the betterment of the breed, and not by a BYB.


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## Zoeys mom

Zoe no way,lol She comes from great bloodlines, is beautiful, and smart as a whip eager to please me and always ready to learn something new. Her focus is amazing, she's extremely athletic, and great with my kids. However, she is a loose cannon when t comes to other kids being in our home around our own, is too protective, and has an overly high defensive drive and low thresholds- she's not stable

Even if her temperament was amazing that is only half of what it takes to be a good breeder...it's more than having two exceptional dogs. You have to understand why two dogs would go well together, be able to access what they would produce, and know how that would be beneficial to the breed. I have no clue about any of this which makes me 100% unqualified to ever breed any two dogs


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## onyx'girl

The only reason I would...would be to carry on the sires lines. 
But there are many progeny from Andy, luckily~ he is a great ambassador to the breed(so is the dam of my boy) :wub:
My other two are_ so not_ breedworthy, and I am proud to say they are spayed!


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

As someone who raises livestock and knows all the work that goes into researching gene flaws (in sheep not dogs), lines, etc. I know that I do NOT want to take the time to do all that research on dogs. So I personally will never breed any dog.

However, if I were to....

I might have considered breeding my golden. He was on the large side, so didn't fit conformation perfectly, but he had the perfect temperament for the breed, and actually a guy that trains drug dogs in our area offered to buy him from my mom because of his tremendous drive. That being said I would have had to do health checks and what not before even starting that process, but for arguments sake, he may have been a decent breeding prospect. 

There is not a chance that I would ever consider breeding Sasha. There are too many unknowns with her. (like whether her small reactive issues are a result of genes or environment...I lean toward environment since as she has settled here they are all but leaving her...but still since I don't know, I'd never chance it. Hers are small...if it IS genetic then then her pups would run the risk of inheriting it possibly even worse than she has it.) I also don't know how her hips/elbows are. She's a beautiful dog, and smart as a whip, but I don't know that other than being the world's best talker she would have contributed anything exceptional to the gene pools lol She's not titled, and there's a good chance she never will be (even though I really want to get involved in some sports with her it is not important to me at all that she titles in anything; we would just be doing it for fun.) so I know that would mean that many responsible breeders wouldn't want to breed to her anyway, and I wouldn't want to breed her to a byb.

All of that said, besides being too lazy to do the research necessary, I would never want to risk my dog's life like that. I wouldn't be able to take it if me wanting my girl to have pups killed her. Livestock are one thing, a sheep dies giving birth and your sad because an animal endured an at least somewhat painful death, but a large part of you is upset because that is money that you just lost. I can't get myself to enter into that same mindset with my girl; she's not just an animal, she's my baby lol! I also will probably always rescue because of the amount of wonderful dogs that can be found in rescues, so there's no reason for me to breed


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## Zan

Nope - Neko has congenital megaesophagus, so that alone makes it a given. Plus I can barely cope with 1 pup some days, let alone 6 or 10.....and, I am no expert! I'll leave it up to them.


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## gsdraven

No.

Raven - BYB so no known lineage. If what I have heard is correct, her brother wasn't too friendly as a young dog. I wouldn't call her weak nerved but she has a few fears (animals in cages, certain tile floors, exercise balls) and doesn't recover as quickly as I like. She's also extremely friendly to everyone (especially males which is funny because I am a single female and have been most of her life) to the point that she gets upset when people walk by her if she sat nicely to say hi. She's over standard at 27" and 82lbs (not fat) with light spots and the vet said her left knee was creaky at her yearly checkup - don't know if that's genetic or injury. I don't know if she would be a good worker though she is picking up nose work quickly.

Kaiser - again BYB, no known lineage. He seems fearless so far, I can only think of one time he startled but he recovered quickly. He is friendly to dogs and people (not aloof but he's also young). He's just barely in standard at 24" and 65lbs. He has excellent ball drive but low thresholds and poor self control (yes, I know that's training). He also has a gay tail which I don't know if that excludes him from breeding or not.

The main reason I wouldn't breed is me. *I* have a weak stomach so there is little possibility that I could whelp a litter without having to run to the bathroom during each pup's birth. I don't think I could deal with an emergency. I also am not a puppy person. I love cuddling and playing with puppies for a bit but never wanted to raise a puppy, I wanted a young adult and ended up buying Raven who was 2 days shy of 3 months. I can't see myself getting a puppy ever unless I was home all day with just the puppy.


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## Lindsay01

sadie2010 said:


> Personally, no, I would not breed my dog.
> 
> I feel there are too many dogs in shelters today that need forever homes. My GSD is a rescue and my next dog will be a rescue too.
> 
> I have nothing against breeders, if done properly, for the betterment of the breed, and not by a BYB.


 
I totally agree, mine is also a rescue. When you see pix of the young dogs and pups all lined up in the Euth room..it makes you sick to your stomach..not something that ever leaves you..Someone sent me a pix recently..I should have deleted it, now it haunts me. I have to stop saying pup, she is now a full year old...omg ..She is spayed and should I adopt in the future... they will all be rescues.


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## RazinKain

No one has taken the bait yet?


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## Josh's mom

Nope,

Josh was cryptorchid. I love him to death but no one would have him as a stud. 
If he wasn't cryptorchid and turns out to be the best police dog in the world, I might have thought about it but still probably not.


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## Mac's Mom

too many dogs in shelters & rescues to even consider it regardless of Mac's breedworthiness


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## Holmeshx2

NOPE!. Great lines great nerves etc.. however she is a long coat so a fault and of course too young to really tell what she will become as an adult. Plus knowing me I wouldn't want to give up any of the pups I don't know genetics, bloodlines or anything needed to be a successful responsible breeder.


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## CassandGunnar

RazinKain said:


> No one has taken the bait yet?


C'mon, the world needs a Kain Jr. I'd take one. :laugh:


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## RazinKain

CassandGunnar said:


> C'mon, the world needs a Kain Jr. I'd take one. :laugh:


I couldn't afford the beer for two of 'em.


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## RazinKain

But seriously, for someone to reply 'yes' to the OP's question would be like blood in the water around here. The thread would go on for 30 more pages and someone would get their feelings hurt.


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## GSDElsa

If we're playing a game of hypotheticals....

IF I knew Elsa's lines (rescue). The good: Good nerves. AMAZING environmental strength...nothing phases her. Will go sliding down slides at the playground. We joke she's a mountain climber in another life--if it's above gorund, she thinks it needs climbing on. Great hunt drive--very hard to call her off things when she's searching. I have not ever had her give up...only forced her to once when I threw a ball in the gutter. Very forgiving and bounces back quickly. Good on/off switch. Very aloof until she gets the non-verbal OK from us...then she'll trot around being social. LOVES kids. Will sit on random kids' laps to get pets and even strange kids can crawl all over her. Works just because she wants to make us happy and for the sake of doing it.

The iffy: Prey drive is so so. She, I think, had QUITE a bit of bite inhibition when she was a pup--she was kind of "scared" to play with a toy when we got her and would drop anything that went in her mouth. But, maybe that's an excuse and not a reason. Who knows. She's gotten a zillion times better with tugging and playing "with" me, but still isn't anything I would write home about. LOVES her balls though...too much.

The bad: She's impulsive when she gets worked up and sometimes kind of mentally shuts off because she's too wound up to think. Protection work is NOT her thing. Not scared, just does not get it. And she has HD in one hip. Shows no physical signs of it, but it's there.

End line: NO. I don't think she has QUITE good enough working ability or nerves (her impulse issues). And the HD.

Medo? Who knows, but there are a lot of good males out there so probably not.

I don't think there is anything wrong with JKlatsky is talking about. Two working dogs..owners that know the dogs...have some knowledge if they'd pair OK? Sounds fine to me.


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## Zeusismydog

In a word NO.

Zeus was beautiful, sweet and had the best temperament you could ask for. The perfect service dog. However he had hip dysplasia. I had a few offers to breed him but since I had him fixed at a young age it wasn't even an option (not that I would have taken it).

Loki. When he had his litter evulation he was labeled as a breeding male. I agreed to keep him intact and show him. He was fixed when we found out he has marginal elbows, his ears are too big for breed standard, and he has other faults. So no he will not ever be bred. 

I wouldn't breed. I don't know enough about it and I am not consistent enough to give pups the right form of raising they need to start out right. I also couldn't get rid of any of them  I will leave breeding up to the ones that enjoy the hard work of researching genetics, bloodlines, titling their dogs and have the money to do it right.


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## LaRen616

I would only breed Sinister if I knew that there would only be 4 puppies in the litter. I would keep one, my ex would keep one, my mom would keep one and my dad would keep one. I know for sure that they would take one. Sinister is everything I ever wanted, I love his temperment, his looks, he's a go with the flow, I'd do anything for you, type of dog. Very easy to take care of and he's very loving.

But I have no desire to be a breeder, too many dogs already in the world and I dont want to contribute. He's neutered and I like it that way and I dont regret it.


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## cassadee7

I cannot tell you how many people already tell me I am insane for planning to spay Saber. She is one of the best looking GSDs you'll see around here IMO and even at 5 months people ask me "when" I will have puppies out of her. Even my kids beg me to "let her" have puppies (yes I have explained, but they are kids, they want puppies!).

But no, I wouldn't. I agree she is gorgeous, maybe even breed-worthy, but I trust her breeder who has, IMO, an excellent breeding program, to pick the very best from her litters to keep back and breed. I am not qualified to do that!

And even if her breeder called me up and said, "hey, I think Saber is the best GSD I have ever bred! I wish I had kept her! Will you breed her when she is 3?" I'd say, sorry... I don't want to get into breeding. I got her as a pet and companion and to help me stay active. I do not feel remotely qualified to deal with a pregnancy and puppies! So the world will have to suffer the terrible loss of no Saber puppies. I know you are all devestated. But try to cope


----------



## Mac's Mom

RazinKain said:


> But seriously, for someone to reply 'yes' to the OP's question would be like blood in the water around here. The thread would go on for 30 more pages and someone would get their feelings hurt.


Do you really think its simply about "feelings being hurt"?


----------



## webzpinner

Never in a million years. My Jake has absolutely ZERO of the requirements for a sire. Sure, he's purebred, but even the breeder had to admit he was a total reject! LOL That why I love him, coz no one else would!


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## Portbrix

Exactly right RazinKain. An answer of "yes" in this forum would cause quite the disturbance!
But yeah, due to the fact that there are already plenty of GSD's of all qualities to go around (ie Shelter/Backyard Breeder and Good quality dog) for most on this board, who are not established breeders, it would not be a wise thing to do for the breed.
If you know of a dog that is better than your dog- breed the superior dog.
Spaying and neutering is a great option many pet owners take. They are ill advised/knowledge when they say stuff like "my dog is going to be healthier now." You can believe this if it makes you feel better. And your vet told you so(along with pretty much the rest of the pet owners in the US,) so they must be right! In topic due to the fact that one poster said that her dog will no longer carry the risk of cancer to her reproductive organs. True. However the chance of her/a GSD getting other types of cancer sky rockets if they have been altered. Don't ask me. Do the research, it is readily available at your finger tips, just do the research.


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## NancyJ

Before I learned Grim was shooting blanks I was researching the idea and he was not the dog that would improve the breed as a whole but we had a purpose and felt with the righ combination we could wind up with some nice SAR dogs.

1-Exceelent working drives with off switch and ability to focus
2-The best temperament of any dog I have owned bar none
3-Powerful physically and able to work hours in rough terrain
4-OFA good, clear elbows, spine, disease free
5-On the small side which is NOT to the determent of working SAR dogs
6-Several would have been very very interested in Grim puppies (SAR folks)
7-Working certifications 
8-Good genetics - Ben Hozmi , Grim z PS, grandson, titled parents, et al.
9-High thresholds
10-Very good nerve strength

Ok downside

1-Grim z PS gotta be very careful in pedigree - gotta know what ou are doing
2-Defense - Bitework - unknown factor. I did not see him work. Only was told he worked in defense - but that was not my goal
3-Unknown unknowns - so I breed him and get a puppy. Pups are a gamble. I dont have room for a fourth dog. what happens to the rest if they ARE duds?
4-You know what, there are NOT unique genetics he would preserve, Grim z PS is about as overbred as some of the others. Ben Hozmi/Bob Cega- not so much


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## spiritsmom

Well Nyxie and Berlin are not spayed and won't be until I see how they test out as adults.

But the question was regarding pets you have that ARE already fixed. All the other Fuzzybutts are fixed and would be fixed regardless. Most are rescues and/or have issues that I would not want to pass on to another generation. 

Spirit - rescued mixed breed but she is my heart dog and I love her but would never breed her.

Kara - rescued Keeshond - she is just crazy and so not even close to breed standard in looks or temperament.

Kaiser - rescued GSD - very sweet boy but he has had allergy issues from the day I adopted him. Spent the last several years having to carefully manage him. He has a low TLI score that may turn to EPI sometime. That and he is obviously from byb lines.


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## WarrantsWifey

RazinKain said:


> But seriously, for someone to reply 'yes' to the OP's question would be like blood in the water around here. The thread would go on for 30 more pages and someone would get their feelings hurt.


I said yes, and nobody has attacked me....  People might have learned to be nice since it was a MOD that opened the thread! *ducks head* LOL!


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## ILGHAUS

RazinKain said:


> No one has taken the bait yet?


No way and I'm not saying that because of what anyone on here might say to me.

First, too much work to learn what dog would be good for what dog. Not interested in breeding. I use to breed rabbits but didn't have to worry about mistakes or extras as they were soon sold or eaten. 

My current dogs are nothing that I would want to breed even though they are wonderful pets and very loving. Karl to me has the perfect temperament for what he was worked in and I wish I could bottle that to transfer to another dog. But not a breedworthy prospect. 

Have my next puppy on semi-reserve with the breeder.  Let her do the research on lines and the breeding and whelping work and I'll just sit back and wait till she has the right puppy at the right time for me. She knows what type I will want and for what purposes. 

If I ever had the need to see the miracle of a puppy being born I would just foster one from the HS that I am a member of and ... no change that. I helped with pups that were only a couple of days old and so been there, done that, and don't want to have young pups to care for 24/7. 

So I'll leave the breeding to those who have spent their lives in learning and working with the dogs to breed the correct way and just say -- not interested.


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## onyx'girl

WarrantsWifey said:


> I said yes, and nobody has attacked me....  People might have learned to be nice since it was a MOD that opened the thread! *ducks head* LOL!


weekly discussion topics can't be started by the lowly users :laugh: only mod's or admins can start threads in this forum


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## RazinKain

WarrantsWifey said:


> I said yes, and nobody has attacked me....  People might have learned to be nice since it was a MOD that opened the thread! *ducks head* LOL!


You're such a rebel . I'm gonna call the 'nonconformist police' on you. :tongue:


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## WarrantsWifey

onyx'girl said:


> weekly discussion topics can't be started by the lowly users :laugh: only mod's or admins can start threads in this forum


Haha, THAT makes sense!!



RazinKain said:


> You're such a rebel . I'm gonna call the 'nonconformist police' on you. :tongue:


I've got my riot gear on!!


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## selzer

I have no speutered pets so I cannot play this game. 

If we are going with intact pets, I have to say yes, and no, probably not, and maybe. If I feel the dog is breed worthy, and the stars align properly, and I find the right dog for her, then yes. 

I have had litters out of Babs and Jenna, and I have bred Heidi. Odessa was bred when I got her. 

Tori is a No. She is just not what I want to go forward with. 

Milla and Ninja will probably not be bred, even if they do pass their ofas because they are not what I want to produce. I was not happy with the litter. The sire was out of a WGSL bitch and a WL/AL dog. The litter was not very uniform, and though I love them, I do not want to reproduce them. 

The three puppies out of Jenna, Joy probably will be, the others are too young to tell.


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## Zahnburg

RazinKain said:


> But seriously, for someone to reply 'yes' to the OP's question would be like blood in the water around here. The thread would go on for 30 more pages and someone would get their feelings hurt.


 
YES, my male is available for stud to suitable bitches.


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## heatherr

Absolutely not.

My dog is fantastic. FANTASTIC. Awesome temperament, crazy sharp focus, highly driven, quick learner, super loyal. The best dog I could have ever asked for. And he is gorgeous, I get so many complements on his coat, his stature, how he carries himself. He is a bit of a cuddle-bug, total velcro dog, best of the best. We are looking to complete in agility or some other dog sport as well, so he will (hopefully) even be titled soon!

But we have no idea of his past, so while he LOOKS pure GSD, we don't know. Everything about him screams awesome GSD, but there are plenty of other, awesome, GSDs. I have no doubt he would make some fabulous puppies, but the world doesn't need any more GSDs with unknown heritage.


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## Castlemaid

> But the question was regarding pets you have that ARE already fixed


Actually, the question was for any dog, pure-bred and intact, AND for pets that are spayed or neutered. Sorry if that was not clear.


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## codmaster

Probably not with Baron. He is intact as I would like to show him if I get my own health cleared up. I did as a little puppy and he did very well.

The big time show kennel breeders have told us he is CH material but we will see.


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## spiritsmom

Well in that case it is a maybe with Nyxie and Berlin. They have many hurdles to clear before that becomes a yes. Hips, elbows, thyroid, eyes, heart to be checked on both. I plan to title both in obedience/rally and conformation (through IABCA). After all that is done and I can find suitable males for each then it is a possibility I am keeping as an option by not spaying them.


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## CarrieJ

Nope, the obvious reason is the seizures. Even if she didn't have seizures I still wouldn't as I honestly don't know enough about it and don't have the room or money to take on the tasks of multiple Alice Kramdens running around my house.
I do not want to be in the position of my dog suffering or need to be put down if something went wrong during labor and giving birth.
I also don't think she has the best nerves, she's pretty confident in some areas but spazzy in others.

I knew these facts when I got her...Not breeding; and I was really getting annoyed when multiple people told me how stupid I was and "how much money I could make" Actually annoyed wasn't quite the right word...um....let's try enraged and fought urge to slap them or let Alice bite them...*grin*

Although I have had her hips and elbows x-rayed it was more for my own personal information. (They're good)

Now, the michael vick cat...oh yeah...the world definitely needs big ugly mean cats who beat up GSDs and take their food.


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## FG167

O M G - no! lol my dogs are all messes. I tend to buy, adopt, rescue dogs that have issues because I am a "fixer" and I want to help. That means that not one of the dogs I have is stable enough (except for Midas) or a good example of the breed (this is where Midas falls WAY short). They're all fixed regardless.

Now, with the new pup - maybe. I don't know. I am getting a male so my end would be easier to deal with - I have absolutely no interest in whelping a litter of pups at this stage in my life...or in the forseeable future either actually. I do plan on keeping my male intact (I neutered Madix WAY young and he is leggy and ridiculous looking - very feminine. Plus I want to dabble in conformation and see if I like it) so the option would be there. I suppose it depends on how he turns out. I'm super picky about what I think a "good" dog makes up (mine are all disasters but I love them anyway!) so one tiny thing might make me decide no. *shrug* Have to wait and see. Since he's not born yet, it will be quite awhile!


----------



## Konotashi

I love Ozzy. He's the perfect snuggling size, gives great hugs, and is as cute as a button. People want to pet him wherever we go. He's got a wonderful temperament. He's friendly with friendly strangers, great with other dogs, excellent with little kids, and is devoted to me like I didn't think any living thing could be. He's super smart and has learned evetything I taught him quickly. He only barks when is necessary (little watch dog), and is just a great all around dog. 

I wouldn't breed him in a million years.


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## LARHAGE

Yes, my dog will be breeding some extremely nice females this year, he is a fantastic dog, beautiful,solid temperament, very successful showing credentials, and is doing great in Schutzhund, he's earning a reputation of being a hard hitting, hard biting dog, he's so far everything I ever wanted. 

I actually love breeding, I spent the last 30 years breeding and showing horses, and have bred 4 Champions. I have had German Shepherds for 30 plus years as well, but Gavin is the first one that I actually purchased to show and breed, I am hoping to conquer the dog world as sucessfully as I did the horse world and have some wonderful mentors helping me. 

I LOVE pedigrees and hypo matings and planning, I am the type of freak that becomes excited when the Stallion issues come out in January, breeding is a fascinating art, there's nothing like seeing an animal you bred achieve success in whatever endeavor you breed for.


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## CarrieJ

> I LOVE pedigrees and hypo matings and planning, I am the type of freak that becomes excited when the Stallion issues come out in January, breeding is a fascinating art, there's nothing like seeing an animal you bred achieve success in whatever endeavor you breed for.


 
Exactly...that's the kind of breeders that all purebreds (not just dogs/GSDs) need. Not the idiots "you coulda made money"


----------



## Achielles UD

*I'll Bite*

Yes, Maybe, No...

My Shelties, Jinx & Sassy, I plan on breeding. Gorgeous, great temperments and fabulous obedience/working skills. Sassy just turned 1 though so I have another year to wait to do her CERF & OFA. I'll be doing Jinx's health clearances too probably this summer.

Sure there are "plenty" of dogs (GSD, Shelties, whatever) out there, but wow! the health and temperment problems abound from all of the "BYB" & puppy mills. I'd love to be part of those offering quality dogs for those that aren't "fixers".

As for my GSDs, well, Malfoy is white and not conformatinally what I would like to reproduce. He has thunderphobia and even if I knew his background (dog pound rescue) I don't believe I would like to produce more of his type.

Moxie is great. She is a long coat though and a bit spastic (ADHD?). I'd have to know about her hips/elbows before I would even consider it really. Though it is nice to fantasize... 

Breaca, my border collie, I could have.. She is over 12 now and having been from the dog pound, no idea of her lines but she isn't exactly what I would look for in a BC either.

I don't believe a dog has to have no faults (they all have a fault somewhere) but I do believe the gains have to exceed what small faults there are.


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## Texas_Eva

Eva is only 11 weeks old and I'm still debating on getting her fixed or not but the thought of breeding her and ensuring her blood lives on would be exciting. I know if I did that though I would end up with a puppy from each litter and end up with too many shepherds in no time.

Kudo's to all of you who keep the breed alive though. The work that goes into ensuring a healthy breed and litter is an impressive art so thank you for what you do!

- Also, I don't mean to hijack the topic but can someone explain how I can properly name my dog in the full german way? I've been told different things by different people and am so confused its not funny. I was told by one person its the mother, and then by another its the name of the breeder. I'm just trying to give her the "first vom/von lastname"

If someone could tell me the right answer I'd be so appreciative, my dog deserves her proper name. My pup's name is Eva, her fathers name is Hans, mother's is Natasha and the breeder is Cedar Oaks Kennels. Also if I do the breeders name is it appropriate to change the name to its German Equivalent? The breeder has no rules or anything regarding names of pups.

Again I don't mean to hijack, but with so many knowledgeable GSD breeders here I figured I could get the answer here.


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## kelso

Castlemaid said:


> For the sake of this discussion, assume your speutered pet is intact.
> 
> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.
> There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING! Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it respectfully, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome.
> 
> I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly.
> 
> So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


 
No, have never bred any of our dogs.

nope, to the question of breeding him/her

I will leave that to the experts!

Don't know enough. Has never even really crossed my mind, except to think about it in threads like this.

Meeka had terrible hips and no drive, backyard breeder. But she was a fantastic family GSD, loyal to a fault.

Kelso has mega drive, the accomplished WG working line pedigree, good looks, good hips, but is not biddable, at all. He is super smart, but very sharp. In different hands he may have been a real working dog, but in our hands we neutered him and he is a pretty content dog that works in making our lives interesting (which also makes me think of another thread topic.........like our dog might be breed worthy if we didn't own him!)

Allie... no way, but cripes if you held a gun to my head and made me pick I would probably pick our already spayed when she came to us rescue girl. 

Really do not know what lines but great health, great coat/structure, perfectly within standard, faster than a rabbit, biddable, loyal, protective, smart, could do whatever you need her to do...figures. 

She has a working line topline/body but a small head. And she might rather give you a kiss on the face than a bark and hold. But she also has great instinct and joy in "working" for her owner so I just don't know what she is capable of! 

But, alas, it is more fun thinking of the reasons why I may/or may not breed our dogs(s) then ever actually doing so. 

NO WAY...that is my final answer. 

Besides the fact that they are sterilized eace:


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## Rosa

No i wouldn't breed any of my dogs, I just don't think it would be the right thing to do as I would have absolutely no reason to breed them.


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## GSDElsa

Mac's Mom said:


> Do you really think its simply about "feelings being hurt"?


Seriously...

No one has a problem with any dog being bred that is suitable. I think it's been laid out more than once what makes a dog "breedworthy."

The people who have answered yes either have dogs that are breedworthy already, or who are steadily on their way to coming to and stated along the lines of "if they prove to be...."


----------



## gsdraven

Portbrix said:


> Exactly right RazinKain. An answer of "yes" in this forum would cause quite the disturbance!


Not if it was followed by *good* reasons _WHY_ your dog should be bred.

Notice that most people that answered No gave the reasons why their dog was not a good candidate for breeding. We all think our dogs are fantastic and we all love them and wish we had another just like them (well, mostly) but we also can recognize the faults in our dogs and why those faults should not be added to the gene pool.


----------



## Castlemaid

I genuinely did not set up this question as a trap. I was curious as to how many people have considered breeding, or are considering breeding their dog, or wished they had bred their dog. 

And I wanted to give people the opportunity to share their thoughts and views and reasonings without the worry of being judged by others - And so far things have been going great (with just a minor hiccup, but I know everyone will behave now,  ), thanks all!


----------



## Castlemaid

Ken, for your question, best thing to do is to start a brand new thread with "help with registered name" or something similar in the subject line in a new forum. thanks! You'll get more answers that way.


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## stacey_eight

No, I never would. I don't understand different lines and what is wanted in a high-drive working dog is not what I want in my active companion. I'd hate to be that person who breeds their dog "Cause he's purdy and fetches gud."

Also the expense and potenial heartbreak is daunting. I think I'll stick to paying those wiser than me to create beautiful puppies and match them to appropriate homes.


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## GSDGunner

Oh, I would definitely breed Gunner. I mean, that is as long as "goofball" is considered apart of the standard. 

Just kidding of course (well, not about him being a goofball, that he IS). Even though I think I have a great dog with excellent bloodlines, it surely doesn't mean he's breed worthy. He's "my" great dog, doesn't mean anyone else would think so.

Just the fact that he's an inch too tall takes him out of the running. Besides, there are better, to the standard males out there.
As much as I love him and think he's just so handsome, doesn't mean he should be bred.
I wish some others would consider these things before they breed their dogs.


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## Lilie

Yes, I would breed Hondo. I'd breed him even though I'll never be able to get a title on him because of his injury. I would breed him if he passed all of his certs (OFA etc.). I would breed him even though he is a LH. I would breed him to the best female I could find. Even if she belonged to me. 

I won't breed him because he has soft ears (they stand, but they are soft) and he doesn't a standard tail carriage. I wouldn't want to purchase a puppy with those faults, therefore I won't breed a dog with them.


----------



## Mrs.K

> I don't think there is anything wrong with JKlatsky is talking about. Two working dogs..owners that know the dogs...have some knowledge if they'd pair OK? Sounds fine to me.


Over here, when you fullfill the AKC standards. Don't see anything wrong with it either. If they work, and have everything what it takes to contribute to their working field and the dogs most likely go into work as well... heck, there is always a need of working dogs.


----------



## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Over here, when you fullfill the AKC standards.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean by that since there is no AKC breeding standards?
Click to expand...


----------



## CarrieJ

I may add that even as a kid, I've never been around a female in heat...I hear different things and have read different things...from excessive loviness, to territorial aggression toward 'competive' females.
We only had spayed or nuetered pets.

Personally, and being blunt I didn't want to screen prospective buyers (no craig's list is wrong it's not "re-homing" if it's puppies that you've bred)
And, I used to say that I will be the only female that gets to have a 'period'
If I could get spayed I would.


----------



## DnP

Oh heck no. 

Besides the fact that Phoenix is a rescue, even if I knew his background, I highly suspect he was a product of a BYB. 

He has a fantastic temperament, is bombproof and has quite the prey drive. HOWEVER, his allergies alone would be a huge check in the "reasons not to breed" column. While he is not exactly a "golden retriever inside" he is overly friendly and treats most people like his long lost best friend. His confirmation is poor. he is beautiful to watch run/trot from the side, but to see him "crab" (back end swings out like he's trotting sideways) while trotting towards me makes me sad... Chiro has helped, but it is something he will do for all if his life.


----------



## phgsd

I've always wanted to breed and got all my GSD's with the hope of eventually titling and breeding them. I did not know much when I got my first GSD 10 years ago, but since then have learned so much and trained a lot of dogs so I definitely feel well-prepared.

Cassie - my first GSD - had a borderline temperament and was spayed. I don't regret doing that at all. She was sharp but also extremely sensitive and would quit working if you just looked at her funny. Her hips also were not the best..they went OFA fair but looked more borderline to me and in her old age she did develop HD. Her structure was also poor.

Djenga - great temperament, nice looking, terrible hips  If she hadn't had bad hips, had checked out otherwise, and had been titled (which would not have been an issue - she was 75% of the way finished for Schh1 when I retired her), I probably would have bred her. But as she is...no way.

Madina - got her as an adult, hoping to avoid the hip issue. She really is a nice dog, gorgeous structure, but her temperament is also extremely sensitive/soft and she doesn't have a whole lot of drive. So...she was fixed and I don't regret that either. 

Kessy - tried to breed her this past heat with no luck, will hopefully get another shot at it before she's too old. Wish I would have done it sooner...but can't do anything about that now. She's titled, has passed all the health tests, and is very pretty with good structure overall. Awesome temperament, super drivy, resilient, great at both Schh and herding, nerves are as solid as it gets, great pedigree...definitely a breedworthy dog. If only she'd cooperate with my breeding plans...


----------



## Josie/Zeus

No- I won't be able to give the puppies up.


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## Mrs.K

phgsd said:


> Kessy - tried to breed her this past heat with no luck, will hopefully get another shot at it before she's too old. Wish I would have done it sooner...but can't do anything about that now. She's titled, has passed all the health tests, and is very pretty with good structure overall. Awesome temperament, super drivy, resilient, great at both Schh and herding, nerves are as solid as it gets, great pedigree...definitely a breedworthy dog. If only she'd cooperate with my breeding plans...


She's just five years old. You'll have a couple of chances before she's too old for it. 

BTW. I like the Waldwinkel dogs. :thumbup:


----------



## Scleropages

If K2's hips and elbows turn out to be really good and he gets a SchHI, equivalent, or higher, I might stud him out. This all also assumes his heath doesn't go south after he matures more and his temperament stays good.


----------



## PaddyD

sagelfn said:


> No I would not breed my dog.
> 
> I love him. He is a great dog but not a great GSD.
> 
> Even if he had great GSD temperament, conformation, titles, and a pedigree to back it up I don't know enough about lines, genetics, etc.. to produce good dogs. I would not be open to using him as a stud since I would have no control over how the puppies he produced were raised and placed.


Ditto. Mine has great lines on one side but mediocre on the other. Like most owners I think she is beautiful, but I wouldn't subject her to a critique.


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## Liesje

Kenya - no, she was bred by the previous owner, I don't know enough about her lines and have no interest in actually breeding litters (owning males is one thing, but I don't want to actually deal with pregnancy and birth!)

Coke - no way, he's a mutt!

Nikon - no, he is still intact and I would have considered it after maturity and titling depending on the female/lines/pedigree but found out about health issues with siblings so it's not worth it, I don't understand enough about the genetics of these issues and don't feel it's worth the risk

Pan - who knows, he's only 8 months...


----------



## Jason L

Dottie and Obie - definitely not even if it was possible.

Ike - same as Lies' Pan. Who knows.


----------



## Xeph

If Strauss had a better front and didn't have allergies (and if I knew what happened to his siblings), I'd breed him in a heartbeat. Incredibly sound, stable dog. Absolutely nothing rattles him, he's a hard worker, fabulous with humans, tolerant of other dogs. He is not a dog that cares to play with other dogs, and prefers them not to be in his face, but he is not immediately reactionary.

No sound or stimuli sensitivity, confident and self assured.


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## RazinKain

I would definately stud out Kain if the bitch was papered, health cleared, had a good temperament, was ofa'd, was intelligent, sable, and belonged to repsponsible people. Titles are not important to me, if the pup is intelligent with good temperament, then the titles can be had later. So, if anyone local is looking for a quality WL stud from DDR lines, gimme one more year so I can get him ofa'd and ensure that he has no health problems, then drop me a line. All I want is pick of the litter female. There ya go, how's that for placing a 'crosshair' on my back. 

BTW: here's a pic of the eligible bachelor


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## RazinKain

Here's Kain


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## Andaka

But the puppy is probably worth more than your stud fee. A smart breeder would pay you, then let you buy a puppy from them.


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## PaddyD

Assuming the dog in question has a sound temperament, excellent health, OFA good ... it should be subjected to a thorough critique, both conformation and bloodlines, to offset the owner's subjective evaluation.


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## superdad88

With my current dog, NO

But if I had the time and money was not an issue I would spend money on 2 GSD that were perfect for breeding. I would do it in a heart beat.

I have always wanted to live on 20+ arces of land and do nothing but raise GSD that exceled at the breed standards. Would this ever happen? Probly not but its nice to have dreams. Come on lottery. LOL LOL


----------



## bruiser

No, not enough knowledge and expertise. But I sure do love puppies.


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## doggiedad

i'm assuming my dog is breed worthy because
he's from a line where all of the dogs are Schutzund
titled and KKL1 "a" rated. yes, i would have my tested
before breeding but i'm not going to breed. i would partner
with someone in a breeding (meaning i would invest
and maybe want a pup). the person i partner with is going to
do all of the work and they have to be a professional with a
strong history for breeding.


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## doggiedad

i'll buy a power ball with the power play and a mega millions
with the mutiplier and you do the same. if one of us hit we'll split it 50/50.



superdad88 said:


> With my current dog, NO
> 
> But if I had the time and money was not an issue I would spend money on 2 GSD that were perfect for breeding. I would do it in a heart beat.
> 
> I have always wanted to live on 20+ arces of land and do nothing but raise GSD that exceled at the breed standards. Would this ever happen? Probly not but its nice to have dreams. Come on lottery. LOL LOL


----------



## superdad88

doggiedad said:


> i'll buy a power ball with the power play and a mega millions
> with the mutiplier and you do the same. if one of us hit we'll split it 50/50.


Sounds good to me


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## Courtney

I would not. There is not one part of my being that wants that type of responsibility. 

He's a super dog & my companion, period.


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## Catu

If Akela turns out to be breed worthy, I see no problem with using him as a stud in the future. 

Diabla was neutered because I decided she is no breedworthy, being autoinmune disease the main problem, but not the only one. She has an amazing hunt drive that makes her a great working dog and a pleasure to work in obedience, tracking and searching, but in protection she could be stronger, she also has resource guarding issues that could have made her untrustworthy in a house with small kids. That* I* have no agression issues with her because I am more bitchy than Diabla doesn't mean that her descendence could have inherited the resource guarding problem and ended up in troubles. Structure wise she is the most beautiful dog on my eyes, but lacks pigmentation.


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## dOg

Nope, which is why mine are neutered.

Even if they weren't, I have witnessed enough idiocy where I would not want to encourage more. It's never the dogs, but when there is a failure to learn to understand enough to prevent stupidity and mis-management, the dog is the one who pays. 

I understand why many breeders do all they can to insure their progeny are placed in working homes, or with people have prior experience with the breed, require return to re-hab and re-home when things don't work out.

But even with these safeguards, I've seen problems develop and owners refuse to admit their mistakes, and make the decision to put down the dog regardless of the contract. At this point, were it me, I'd be spitting nails. That's heart ache I don't need.

With more than fifty some gsd breeders in MI alone, I don't think I could offer anything not already available, so leave it to those so inclined.


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## pets4life

only if a respected breeder thinks she is breed worthy when she is mature would i breed her eurosport think she may be breed worthy one day to me i really dont care 

but if a well respected breeder took an interest in her my dog was at a mature level and my dog accomplished things that would make people go wow at that time then i would consider it, id want my dog to have something of value to add to the current bloodline of my country

but breeding her would also be stressful and a lot of work so even if it was for the good id have to think about it

i have my own personal training goals with my dog that i want to accomplish that mean a lot to me


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## CainGSD

In hindsight, I wish I had bred Cain. He had an exceptional temperament, his overall size was nicely proportioned and his work ethic was outstanding. He was OFA good on hips and grade 1 djd on left elbow, right elbow normal. I had his xrays looked at for second opinion and both original vet and second opinion vet stated they could not see why they graded left elbow as djd. Both recommended re doing xray on elbows and resubmitting. I opted to not redo xrays as I didn't have people with suitable females beating down my door and there are many outstanding studs out in the breeding world. In Cain's case, I agree with JKlatsky if I had found a local person with a very nice female with normal elbows I would have considered breeding him.

Dazzle will be bred if all of her health clearances come through passing and she attains her working titles. She is part of her breeder's program and her breeder has high standards. So if all the stars align at some point in the future she will hopefully produce puppies.

At this point, Dazzle, is showing all the working traits that the breeder and I hoped she would show.


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## PupperLove

I haven't gone through this thread, but to answer the original question- NOPE! I love GSDs too much and Jackson isn't a candidate to improve the gene pool!


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## PupperLove

Oh, I forgot about Arlo- a big **** no!

He's a very sweet, wonderful, calm house dog, but he has issues.

Very low confidence and very soft and easily shuts down. You have to be very gentle with him at all times and any yelling in the house at all will offend him. Poor labby .... 

Chronic ear problems, skin problems, strange sores, weak stomach, urinary incontinence and he's only 1 and a half! He has 'off' days too, I think something is going on with him. In fact our friends wanted us to breed him to their female, so we had him neutered at 6 months to avoid any confrontations with our very close friends.

I think, like someone else mentioned, in a "dream world" things would be different, and it would be amazing to see the puppies of my dogs. I think too many people actually make it a reality and only think about 'PUPPIES!!' But honestly, I wouldn't want to _own_ any offspring of my dogs because of their problems- health, confirmation, temperment- and that says it all. They have never been evaluated for any, but I can tell you now they don't measure up! Especially Jackson and his elbows that touch sometimes! Lol!


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## danbibby

We talked about Karma as far as breeding and the wife has 3 reasons.

1. Provide Military and police dogs.

2. Provide Rescue and service dogs.

3. Look to a future when it's time to say goodbye and have a son or daughter to carry on the family line. I hate that part.


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## codmaster

So your dog has shown it is capable of producing dogs suitable for K9 and service dogs - he/she has earned the titles to prove they have the right temperament, etc. By "Rescue" do you mean S&R dogs?

So your dog won't just be contributing to the "pet" population just so you and wife can get a son/daughter of your dog?


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## fuzzybunny

Jazz is unsuitable for breeding because of his digestive issues. He's slightly below breed standard for a Shiloh Shepherd as well so for these reasons I would never consider breeding him. 

Bunny is actually a mix so wouldn't breed her either. I know nothing about her parents or where she came from.


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## Wolfiesmom

Absolutely. I would consider breeding Wolfie. He has a great temperament, easy to train, and such personality. He's also easy on the eyes. I would, of course, make sure he was worthy in the eyes of a breeder, and passed all medical testing first.


----------



## Mrs.K

I have a question which does relate to the topic. 


If my dog can pass everything I personally require her to be breedworthy I'd probably do it and if it is just to improve those frickin huge ears in the line which means to try to better the line and do something about those satellite dishes. I thought long about it and I did research. The line is known to produce longer dogs and large ears and at one point they are getting soft and that is something that needs to be reversed. 
Otherwise, she's an excellent working dog and her line produced excellent working dogs that not only compete in the world class (her father was at the world championships quite a few times and very succesfull) but also dogs that work in SAR, Police etc. 

That is one thing I am concerned about. So maybe a compact dog, Fero&Mink free, small strong eared (known throughout the line and passing it on) excellent working dog and go from there. 

It's a trend I've been seeing for quite a while now. Longer, not necessarily taller but more massive dogs, bigger ears. 

Indra is smaller than AbbyK9's Ronja but because she's longer and more massive, she appears to be overall bigger. I'd like to see a more compact dog, smaller and stronger ears. They are out there but if we talk about improving the breed we also need to improve whats already out there and popular and what is in demand and that line is still in high demand. 

One thing I wouldn't do is linebreeding her. She's already heavily linebred so there is absolutely no need for that and it would only contribute from what I'd like to get away. 

Now that is hypothetical though...


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## Tbarrios333

If I knew my Denali would only have ONE puppy, then yes, 
I would breed her (maybe). That way, I could keep the puppy and have a piece of her for a longer time.  I know it would not happen that way though and I would not want to be responsible for placing puppies; I'll leave that to the experts. 
I still wouldn't want her to go through the pain that is child birth even if dogs could only have one pup at a time. 
The old "She should be able to experience child birth at least once in her life" adage is B.S. to me. Lol, I would not want to experience the full wrath of child birth and i'm sure she wouldn't be too thrilled about it either.


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## King James

Most likely not. The only way I would is if I knew a quality breeder with a great GSD line. Even then, I'd want the breeder to get to know the dog and say it would be worth it first.


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## selzer

codmaster, this is a thread with no right or wrong answers and not a place to interrogate people for answering.

Tbarrios333, I hear what you are saying about not wanting to place puppies -- you can just never be sure of people you don't know really, really well, and even those you do know really, really well. But as for puppy birth, one puppy can grow much bigger in utero, and that can be much harder on the bitch to deliver, may even require a c-section. I mean if you have ten pups and they are all between 12 and 16 ounces and deliver without trouble, that is a whole lot better than one 2 1/4 pound monster puppy. Much better for a pup to grow up in a litter, the litter teaches them doggy manners. But I do hear what you are saying. Raising Cupcake was a trip, and being an only did not hurt her at all.


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## Castlemaid

Thanks selzer for bringing the topic back on line. This discussion is to explore people's thought process as to why they would breed their dog, or not breed their dog. Whether the dog _should_ be bred is a completely different topic, and I ask that those discussions be left out of this thread. 

I've really been enjoying the answers so far. There is a wide variety of reasons why people would or would not breed, and I think that the decision to do so (or not) often reflects more on the owner than on the dog, which goes back to the question as to whether the dog _should_ be bred (or not). Which really highlights the issue that what dogs are being bred is more about what individuals think and feel than about the dog in front of us (and again, not a judgement on people, but an interesting observation to mull over). 

For me, Keeta, of course, not. Mixed breed rescue, she could have a bazillion titles and have saved dozens of babies out of burning buildings or raging rivers (not that she would, LOL), still, a mixed breed of no known background. Her offspring may be the biggest messes in the world in terms of health and temperament. And the last thing I wanted to be responsible for is more mixed breed unwanted pups in the world, so she got spayed soon after I adopted her. 

Gryffon - would I? For now, no. But that could change. I wouldn't breed him because he is over standard, a bit too handler sensitive for a working dog, and the combination of his lines has not had enough age and history to see how health will pan out, despite his being 100% healthy and OFA good. 

But as he gets older, I see a lot of stuff coming out in him that I really like that makes me think: His drives for protection are very balanced. Incredibly clear-headed and self-contained when in high drive for bite-work. His handler sensitivity is decreasing as he gets older, becoming a harder dog, but still very handler oriented. His defense drive is increasing. His energy and intensitiy and stamina in everything also keeps getting stronger and better. 

He is from lines that mature slowly. My helper was saying that in another year, we will probably see a completely different dog. So even if he got his SchHI tomorrow, for example, I would not breed him, I do not know yet what the "finished" Gryffon product will be. So as others were saying, we'll see . . .


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> codmaster, this is a thread with no right or wrong answers and not a place to interrogate people for answering.
> ......


Are you serious or just trying to be helpful?


What I said was a couple of questions/assumptions that I thought were kind of common to ask when someone says they want to breed their dog. Please see below to review what I really did say and then try to understand what I was asking the OP.

As you can see with a little review I asked basically what titles (of any type!) their dog had earned and kind of assumed that they wouldn't just breed their dog to obtain a son'daughter to "carry on the line".

*"So your dog has shown it is capable of producing dogs suitable for K9 and service dogs - he/she has earned the titles to prove they have the right temperament, etc. By "Rescue" do you mean S&R dogs?
So your dog won't just be contributing to the "pet" population just so you and wife can get a son/daughter of your dog? "*

Selzer, are you saying that you think that anyone who has a dog they they think is really a "super dog" - regardless of breeding pedigree and in spite of the lack of any sort of demonstration of titles to show the mental/physical abilities that make this particular dog breed worthy?

A lot of people (not me) would see nothing wrong with that attitude (if you feel that way) as we see it demonstrated a great deal in the very large number of GSD's that are produced every day.

Understand that I am not saying anything about the OP above as we know nothing about their dog whatsoever. 

Just curious as to your reasoning since you seemed so judgmental and upset about my earlier post simply asking about the OP's dog.

Have a nice day.


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## Castlemaid

> Are you serious or just trying to be helpful?


She's being helpful!  

From the opening post:



Castlemaid said:


> For the sake of this discussion, include all your dogs, and assume your speutered pet is intact if any are fixed.
> 
> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.
> *There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING! *Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it respectfully, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome.
> 
> I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly.
> 
> So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


(emphasis added)

Any further argumentative and judgemental post in violation to the spirit of the thread will be deleted. Thank you for your cooperation all!


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## Tbarrios333

selzer said:


> But as for puppy birth, one puppy can grow much bigger in utero, and that can be much harder on the bitch to deliver, may even require a c-section. I mean if you have ten pups and they are all between 12 and 16 ounces and deliver without trouble, that is a whole lot better than one 2 1/4 pound monster puppy. Much better for a pup to grow up in a litter, the litter teaches them doggy manners. But I do hear what you are saying. Raising Cupcake was a trip, and being an only did not hurt her at all.


I didn't think about that! 
I also forgot about how good it is for puppies to socialize with their litter mates. All the more reason for me NOT to breed dogs haha!


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## Anja1Blue

Even if it were possible for my two, the answer would be NO. I'm not interested in breeding, never have been never will be. And on top of that, both my dogs have autoimmune problems, very likely genetically based, which could be passed on to their offspring.
________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## codmaster

"So, would you breed your dog? Have you?"

NO! Not until/unless he/she had definetly proved themselves worthy of at least attempting to improve the breed - never just to get a son/daughter.

Too many BYB puppies are produced in the US today.

Our first GSD was such a BYB dog - very intelligent and a great protective but friendly temperament. Totally trustworthy around people, kids, kittens, other dogs, etc. but yet could be very protective. Even trained her in ScH and she did very well.

Totally bad conformation and never considered breeding her (spayed after her first season!).


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## onyxena

Hypothetically speaking, I would love to have one litter from my two! They would not win titles or ribbons, but they are both absolutely excellent companions. My girl Sasha is spayed, rescued from a county shelter nearly 3 years ago. She is gorgeous with the dark coloring I love, plush coat, 80lbs, excellent temp. She is wonderful with kids, greets other dogs politely, though can be a bit dominant, but never aggressive. I would pay any price to have another just like her! 

My boy Dasher is everything I wanted in my first pure GSD. Not sure of lines, prob. "pet lines" Bought from family who bred their pets once, not really breeders, just wanted one litter. Could have been decent pets, didn't get the papers. Got him before I really knew about quality breeders. But nonetheless, he is wonderful. Plenty of energy without being hyper, very trainable, not fearful, can be protective when new people enter, but will immediately be friendly if no threat. He is a lot of dog, but not too pushy or aggressive. Enough that I feel like he is as close to being a "real" GSD despite his background. He is very healthy,no issues at all so far. I feel like he really could be trained to work, but unfortunately I have had to move a few times and finding a good trainer in a new area every 2 years is difficult. I would not be any happier with him if I did pay $1200 and had an impressive pedigree. 

I have no intention of beeding him, for many reasons. He is intact, but carefully managed. But, I think raising one litter of the offspring would be really fun, and I would enjoy the whole process of pregnancy to selecting homes. I know in reality it can be difficult. Plus I do not want to add to the unwanted dogs. So I just like to imagine how fun and adorable 7 puppies from them would be!


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## pupresq

I wouldn't breed Grace because of her unknown background and the surplus of GSDs already out there, but I would absolutely clone her if I could! She's got terrific nerves and fabulous drive; she's athletic and a nice size. She's the smartest dog I've ever met and I think she's beautiful. When she had an MRI last fall all the vets were commenting on how fantastic her structure is and couldn't believe those hips belonged to an 11 year old GSD. There will never be another HER, but I'd love to find another GSD with all those qualities.


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## SiegersMom

Yes..I love my dog!!!...lol OOPS...I had him neutered a few weeks ago I do love my dog and he is beautiful and I have people comment on him all the time...but he is not breed worthy. He is oversized and has what I think is called happy tail. Great for a Golden Retreiver but not so prized in GDS's. Personallity is wonderful. Shows some protective instincts when he needs to but all my friends can come over with out worry. I will keep breeding with people who know what they are doing.


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## marshies

I have perfect memories of my childhood GSD. From my understanding, he came from a good line and was trained in personal protection. There is no doubt that no more perfect of a dog runs this earth. I would breed him, if he were still alive, just to have more of him lined up for me to love. 

But would I breed any of my future dogs? No. Our world needs specialization. I've been in school for the last godknowshowlong to specialize in something that makes me add value to the world, and this thing isn't dog breeding.


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## Bomber

I dont understand why people think papers mean anything. Just like any living creature its offspring dont always take after its parents. They are not clone makers. How many serial killers, rapists, pedofiles had parents the same? Sure they are humans, but it is very relevant. Do you think a child of a doctor automatically has all the traits and brains to be a doctor also? Negative.

I was going to get him neutered, but the more I read and the more I thought about it... theres no point to it. My dog ...i'd let him knock another GSD up...and i'd keep a puppy. he has no papers but hes just as good as one with papers. Hes smart, strong, healthy, and a pure blooded GSD. I dont need a paper to tell me what hs is... he's proved it.


----------



## marshies

Bomber said:


> I dont understand why people think papers mean anything. Just like any living creature its offspring dont always take after its parents. They are not clone makers. How many serial killers, rapists, pedofiles had parents the same? Sure they are humans, but it is very relevant. Do you think a child of a doctor automatically has all the traits and brains to be a doctor also? Negative.
> 
> I was going to get him neutered, but the more I read and the more I thought about it... theres no point to it. My dog ...i'd let him knock another GSD up...and i'd keep a puppy. he has no papers but hes just as good as one with papers. Hes smart, strong, healthy, and a pure blooded GSD. I dont need a paper to tell me what hs is... he's proved it.


He is your dog and you have the final say in whatever you choose to do with him.

He turned out to be a nice dog, which is fantastic. But what about recessive genes he's carrying? If you're not looking at his parents and grandparents, and the female's parents and grandparents, you could be breeding recessive genes into expressive genes.

In humans, some of these recessive genetic disorders are life altering and life threatening.


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## Jessiewessie99

Bomber said:


> I dont understand why people think papers mean anything. Just like any living creature its offspring dont always take after its parents. They are not clone makers. How many serial killers, rapists, pedofiles had parents the same? Sure they are humans, but it is very relevant. Do you think a child of a doctor automatically has all the traits and brains to be a doctor also? Negative.
> 
> *I was going to get him neutered*, but the more I read and the more I thought about it... theres no point to it. My dog ...i'd let him knock another GSD up...and i'd keep a puppy. he has no papers but hes just as good as one with papers. Hes smart, strong, healthy, and a pure blooded GSD. I dont need a paper to tell me what hs is... he's proved it.


I am confused. Not trying to start anything, just curious. But your signiture says your dog is a adopted. So he isn't neutered? I know most rescues/shelters spay/neuter animals before they leave or have the adopter sign a contract stating they will get the dog fixed. Was this not the case for your dog? IMO, Shelters/rescues should be spaying/neutering before letting someone take home a dog.

Once again I am just wondering since you put "I was going to get him neutered" and in your signiture it says he was adopted.

ETA: As for why papers are important. It shows the dog is indeed purebred, it shows your dogs parents and grand parents and great grandparents so you can look up those dogs and learn about them and see what they were like.


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## southforsunshine

No.

Kitty has overall poor health and bad hips. Guarantee if you find his parents and siblings, you'd see much of the same.

Lola is crazy. And even if she wasn't, I'm not a breeder and have no business trying.


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## DunRingill

I did, twice, long ago. The bitch I bred is now long gone. Her son I kept from the first litter died in 2002, and her daughter from the second litter died in 2006 at the age of 14. They were good dogs, but that line stopped there. Dave and I LOVED raising the litters of puppies, but HATED selling them. We found that lots of idjits call about GSD puppies. ("Will they be big? I want one that will be at least 100 pounds!") 

Of my current dogs:
Ianna, I wish I could clone her. She's amazing. 13 years old and still very active, no one would guess her age. I do have to help her up onto the bed some nights if she's worn herself out with too much activity  She's spayed because her hips didn't pass OFA....but she's the kind of dog that makes me question what a hip rating really means. Her littermates all went OFA Good. She has never limped, never had problems (tho she is a bit slower now, but hey she's 13!). She raced flyball at a high level for many years, accumulating almost 34,000 points. Rock solid temperament, no dog aggression, wonderful with kids no matter what they do, tons of ball drive. Like I said, I'd clone her if I could! 

Mike, NO FREAKIN' WAY is he siring any litters. He's extremely dog aggressive. Heck he'd probably start fighting with the bitch while they were tied! No way, never. Mike (OF COURSE) has very good PennHip numbers. Figures.

The Bunny: Jury is still out....good pedigree, wonderful temperament, absolutely no dog aggression. But I think one hip isn't going to tighten up as much as I'd like. Yeah she could probably pass with the right positioning, but I'm not playing that game. In any case she'll stay intact until maturity.


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## Sulamk

No! I wouldn't ! Xara will be spayed as soon as the vet says she is ready!


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## vat

Well Callan was a breeder, she retired and I adopted her. Max, only if my breeder wanted to breed him after he passed on his hips. I personally do not want to be a breeder.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I am confused. Not trying to start anything, just curious. But your signiture says your dog is a adopted. So he isn't neutered? I know most rescues/shelters spay/neuter animals before they leave or have the adopter sign a contract stating they will get the dog fixed. Was this not the case for your dog? IMO, Shelters/rescues should be spaying/neutering before letting someone take home a dog.
> 
> Once again I am just wondering since you put "I was going to get him neutered" and in your signiture it says he was adopted.
> 
> ETA: As for why papers are important. It shows the dog is indeed purebred, it shows your dogs parents and grand parents and great grandparents so you can look up those dogs and learn about them and see what they were like.



For some people, getting a dog off of craigslist is adopting a dog. 
Some other people call selling a puppy "adopting". 
It's a marketing strategy. Not all dogs adopted, come from a shelter or rescue


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## gsdraven

Mrs.K said:


> *Some other people call selling a puppy "adopting". *


And those people would be incorrect. That's purchasing/buying a dog.  Sorry, big pet peeve when people try to make it sound like they are doing something they aren't to look "better". (I don't think there is anything wrong with buying a dog, just call it what it is.)


----------



## The Mystic

I have bred a litter before-10 years ago when I was lucky enough to have an almost finished Cane Corso. Of course I had every health test known to man, and was pretty much bullied into it by her sires breeder. She had 4 puppies, and to this day I know where they are, and what they're doing. 

IF I had a correct specimen, with good hips, elbows, eyes and cardio-maybe. I'd also make sure to have a mile long waiting list as I did with Bella, But to be perfectly honest with you-there are so many breeders of GSDs, or Dobermans (The two AKC breeds of my choice) that it's hard to think of joining the breeder ranks now. If I were to breed Missy (which would not be an option) I'd have to go to heck and back with her breeder and I'm not in that happy place where I want to deal with her. I like the woman, and I understand and respect her stringency, but by contract she would co-own the litter. I'm the person who would see a great family who would treat the dog like royalty, and want to give them a puppy instead of charging an arm and a leg. 

Eh-since it's not an option right now, I guess no.


----------



## The Mystic

DunRingill said:


> I did, twice, long ago. The bitch I bred is now long gone. Her son I kept from the first litter died in 2002, and her daughter from the second litter died in 2006 at the age of 14. They were good dogs, but that line stopped there. Dave and I LOVED raising the litters of puppies, but HATED selling them. We found that lots of idjits call about GSD puppies. ("Will they be big? I want one that will be at least 100 pounds!")
> 
> Of my current dogs:
> Ianna, I wish I could clone her. She's amazing. 13 years old and still very active, no one would guess her age. I do have to help her up onto the bed some nights if she's worn herself out with too much activity  She's spayed because her hips didn't pass OFA....but she's the kind of dog that makes me question what a hip rating really means. Her littermates all went OFA Good. She has never limped, never had problems (tho she is a bit slower now, but hey she's 13!). She raced flyball at a high level for many years, accumulating almost 34,000 points. Rock solid temperament, no dog aggression, wonderful with kids no matter what they do, tons of ball drive. Like I said, I'd clone her if I could!
> 
> Mike, NO FREAKIN' WAY is he siring any litters. He's extremely dog aggressive. Heck he'd probably start fighting with the bitch while they were tied! No way, never. Mike (OF COURSE) has very good PennHip numbers. Figures.
> 
> The Bunny: Jury is still out....good pedigree, wonderful temperament, absolutely no dog aggression. But I think one hip isn't going to tighten up as much as I'd like. Yeah she could probably pass with the right positioning, but I'm not playing that game. In any case she'll stay intact until maturity.


OFA score can be affected in an unspayed female, depending on what stage of her cycle she's in. My old vet told me that closer to a heat, her hips can loosen somewhat. Don't know if it's true, but it could be why your dogs hips didn't rate the same as her littermates, and she has no hip issues.


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## selzer

gsdraven said:


> And those people would be incorrect. That's purchasing/buying a dog.  Sorry, big pet peeve when people try to make it sound like they are doing something they aren't to look "better". (I don't think there is anything wrong with buying a dog, just call it what it is.)


Agree 100% and that goes whether you buy your dog from a pound for $25, a rescue for $150, a pet store for $1800, an auction for $75, a breeder for $200, a breeder for $1500, a breeder for $10,000. Does not matter, money changed hands, it is a sale, the new owner bought the puppy. They exchanged money or goods or services for something. 

If you take in a stray after it got hit by a car and took it to the vet and could not find the owner, _that _would be a rescue. 

I think that rescues rescue dogs from kill shelters, or take in dogs from people who give them up, they are rescuers. If they end up keeping the dog, they might be considered a rescue, but if they bought the dog from a kill shelter/pound, they are the owner, and that is called purchasing/buying a dog. 

If you pull a dog out of a freezing pond, that is rescuing a dog. 

There is no such thing as adopting a dog. 

From adoption - definition of adoption by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
a·dopt (







-d







pt







)_tr.v._ *a·dopt·ed*, *a·dopt·ing*, *a·dopts* *1. * To take into one's family through legal means and raise as one's own child.
*2. **a. * To take and follow (a course of action, for example) by choice or assent: adopt a new technique.
*b. * To take up and make one's own: adopt a new idea.

*3. * To take on or assume: adopted an air of importance.
*4. * To vote to accept: adopt a resolution.
*5. * To choose as standard or required in a course: adopt a new line of English textbooks.

I understand that it sound nice and sweet and all, but it is simply not correct. There IS nothing wrong with buying a dog, but people use this rescue terminology to buy dogs from breeders where conditions are criminal, auctions, and pet stores and are doing the exact opposite. It is cutesy for rescues to claim they are adopting the dogs not selling them and have a adoption fee, and not price, but it is just trying to make people feel better about themselves for getting their dog from a rescue or a shelter. That is well and good to get your dog there, but it is no more adopting than buying a dog from a breeder, and it is no more rescuing than buying a pup from a breeder with conditions that are criminal or puppy auction or off of craigslist. I mean a dog in a rescue already has some human being looking out for its basic needs and trying to find it a home, it has been rescued, that pup will need a buyer, but does not need to be rescued again, those other dogs are likely to end up euthanized one way or another, so one can argue that they can be rescued -- but it would still be a purchase, unless the owner gave them to you. 

I am certainly not advocating purchasing a dog from an auction or and unethical or criminal breeder. 

But call a spade a spade, a sale a sale. One does not say, there is a $200 donation required to acquire a dog. It is a sale. The dog is purchased.


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## gsdraven

> From adoption - definition of adoption by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
> a·dopt (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -d
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )_tr.v._ *a·dopt·ed*, *a·dopt·ing*, *a·dopts* *1. *To take into one's family through legal means and raise as one's own child.


Ugh, as much as I don't want to say this... if we were to take this at face value, purchasing a dog (no matter where they are from) could be considered an adoption. Obviously this definition is geared towards humans but it can also be applied to animals. I adopted my cats, they had no home, I signed a contract and I brought them into my family to raise as my own, but no, they are not children.

I don't say I adopted Kaiser, I say he's a rescue because he was rescued from a neglectful situation by the shelter and I took him from the shelter. I don't make claims to have personally rescued him. Raven I bought.. from a BYB... and I own it. It was my mistake before I knew better but at least I admit it.

It's really just semantics. But most of society uses "adoption" to get away from the stigma of having bought from a breeder and that's what irks me. If you are buying from a breeder, own it. (not that there is anything wrong with it)


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## marshies

If I bought the animal from a breeder, I would say "I bought him/got him".
If the animal came from a shelter, rescue, or even a dire situation on kijiji, I would say I adopted the animal. It didn't start it's life as my animal, and I consider it adoption. 

I got my rabbit off of a kijiji posting. The person was a rabbit breeder who also took in rabbits who were living in unsuitable conditions. She had a car accident in January, and had trouble cleaning the extra cages for the extra rescues she took because of some sort of physical injury. I paid $50 for cage, food, and all supplies. Though money was in the transaction, I consider it adoption. The rabbit was not bred to be MY pet, and I adopted it from an existing home.


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## lisgje

Nope, never. Shane had severe IBD and an undescended testicle that was pre-cancerous, Chance has severe IBD, is severely cowhocked and has had numerous health issues. Would never consider breeding as I would not want to pass that on to another litter. Not qualified in any way, shape or form to breed dogs either. LOL


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

No Daisy temperment and after Parvo not sure of her reaction to being a mom,Lucky not a papered dog and finally I dont know anything about doing it right and am not so sure alot of GSD's for sale better the breed.As I have said befor the GSD's I grew up with were backyard breeders who bred their dog once or twice,I dont think in today's world thats even humane as shepherds apppear along with other larger breeds to be in shelters and on the streets.


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## selzer

gsdraven said:


> Ugh, as much as I don't want to say this... if we were to take this at face value, purchasing a dog (no matter where they are from) could be considered an adoption. Obviously this definition is geared towards humans but it can also be applied to animals. I adopted my cats, they had no home, I signed a contract and I brought them into my family to raise as my own, but no, they are not children.
> 
> I don't say I adopted Kaiser, I say he's a rescue because he was rescued from a neglectful situation by the shelter and I took him from the shelter. I don't make claims to have personally rescued him. Raven I bought.. from a BYB... and I own it. It was my mistake before I knew better but at least I admit it.
> 
> It's really just semantics. *But most of society uses "adoption" to get away from the stigma of having bought from a breeder and that's what irks me. If you are buying from a breeder, own it*. (not that there is anything wrong with it)


It irks me too, because there should be no stigma. If you bought from a rescue, own it. If you bought from a shelter own it. If you bought from a breeder own it! If you gave money to take a dog into your family you bought the dog.

I can say I am my dog's foster mother, surragate mother, nanny, or grandmother -- none of it is TRUE. 

So my dogs are actually slaves, and your dogs because they were "adopted" are now sons and daughters in your family and will be given equal inheritance with them.

Do you see how completely insulting this is?

Money is money. A sale is a sale. People buy dogs from rescues. They buy dogs from breeders. The dogs from both are raised as family, and the dogs from both are property owned and under the responsibility of the owner.


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## gypsyrose

*No I would not breed Gypsy*

I had Gypsy spade as soon as the vet would do it. However i've been asked by more than one male G.S.D. owner to let them breed her lol...


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## Germanshepherdlova

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I am confused. Not trying to start anything, just curious. But your signiture says your dog is a adopted. So he isn't neutered? I know most rescues/shelters spay/neuter animals before they leave or have the adopter sign a contract stating they will get the dog fixed.


I don't know where they got this dog from but I do know that dog pounds do not neuter the dogs (not the one in my city anyhow). They don't make you sign a contract either. 

If nobody comes along and RESCUES one of these dogs, they will be killed. Their time is very limited. That is why dog pound dogs are indeed *rescued *when someone comes along and picks the one that they want to save.


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## gypsyrose

marshies said:


> If I bought the animal from a breeder, I would say "I bought him/got him".
> If the animal came from a shelter, rescue, or even a dire situation on kijiji, I would say I adopted the animal. It didn't start it's life as my animal, and I consider it adoption.
> 
> I got my rabbit off of a kijiji posting. The person was a rabbit breeder who also took in rabbits who were living in unsuitable conditions. She had a car accident in January, and had trouble cleaning the extra cages for the extra rescues she took because of some sort of physical injury. I paid $50 for cage, food, and all supplies. Though money was in the transaction, I consider it adoption. The rabbit was not bred to be MY pet, and I adopted it from an existing home.


 I bought Gypsy from someone's back yard and to date she has been healthy, smart and full of vinegar. Although I paid three hundred dollars for her i still feel i rescued her. I dont think i could have gotten a better dog for any amount of money and have no regrets in buying her. The fact remains she was a dog that needed a home and I supplied one. I agree poor breeding practices should not be encouraged but it's not the puppies fault people make poor decisions.


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## codmaster

Strangely enough, I have been asked 3/4 times if other people could breed their female to my 3 1/2 yo male GSD. Once was from a beautiful Rottie female! Wouldn't that have been a great litter? Another time it was the owners of a female GSD that met us walking in the local park!

Needless to say I said no each time.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Oso, my rescue dog has a great temperament, he has no issues, I would breed him if it weren't for the fact that when I went to the dog pound and chose him, my heart was broken by all the dogs there that were going to be killed if no one came and rescued them. I know nothing about breeding and definitely wouldn't be able to sell his puppies to great/responsible people the way that reputable breeders do. Nor would I be able to take back any puppies that the purchaser couldn't keep for any reason. So for these reasons I wouldn't breed him.
I purchased Brutus from a breeder and I wouldn't breed him because of his issues, and the reasons named above.


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## Jessiewessie99

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I don't know where they got this dog from but I do know that dog pounds do not neuter the dogs (not the one in my city anyhow). They don't make you sign a contract either.
> 
> If nobody comes along and RESCUES one of these dogs, they will be killed. Their time is very limited. That is why dog pound dogs are indeed *rescued *when someone comes along and picks the one that they want to save.


Thats why I asked the question. Here in CA most of the shelters I know of do not adopt out dogs or cats until they are altered, or if there is a reason for it, make the potential owner sign a contract.


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## selzer

I think that some places it is the law that dogs be altered before they leave a government run shelter. 

We have a private shelter in our county run by volunteers. They used to be no-kill, but they had to change that due to over crowding. They do send smaller dogs to shelters in NY. Big Black dogs are sold for $25. They have little hope there, really. 

My vet and others do surgeries for them on a reduced or even pro-bono rate. But at times they let dogs go with just a spay/neuter promise and discount certificate. My oldest brother generally gets their dogs from the shelter. But he is a jerk about his animals. They are not allowed inside, ever. They do not have fences. In the winter, he lets them sleep in the heated garage -- has a gas well on the property and mineral right. I am surprised he hasn't put a doggy door in, but whatever. 

They bought a Rough Collie, Merlin, from a breeder as a cash cow and left it chained in the back near the woods, but my sister in law killed it with horse-wormer -- collies cannot take ivermectin. The smooth collie, Dixie is a mix, but my brother says it was the biggest mistake to spay her because she was the best dog. She chases the garbage men, was run over by a car and had dislocated her hip, but my brother did not have the money to have the vet do a surgery so they just had to leave it that way. The new pup, Maggy the they rescued from the pound ( like most of their dogs over the course of the years). She was a pretty little thing. She got smooshed in the road last November.

Their horse died of colic. A raccoon got into the hen house and decapitated all the chickens. They dispatched the raccoon. 

Some people who rescue are not moral giants when it comes to animal husbandry. 

All I can do is shake my head, and thank the good lord he doesn't want or need "an attack dog."


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## mecaplan

Much as I love my puppy, who comes from great parents and a really good breeder, I don't feel I have the skills and experience to know if she would really add to the overall breed. I will spay her when it is time and love her and train her to be the fabulous pet she will be. Breeding and improving the line is best left to the experts.


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## Ruthie

Bison- No. He has ED and had only one testicle drop.

Grizzly- No plans to breed him, but won't say never. Alot could happen in the next 3 years. I can say that IF I ever decided to it would be with conditions. IF it was with a good breeder, IF he has all health clearances, and IF he is titled. That is a lot of IF's for something that I am not interested in doing.


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## hunterisgreat

I had a guy come up and offer me $300 stud fee to breed a female to my male lol... he probably found someone willing to take his money though


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## juliejujubean

Well back in the day when king was still alive, my dad was going to breed him with a beautiful.female named princess. (cute match of names huh?) well they would not mount and no puppies were produced. We are really happy now because we really did not know what was to come with kings health. We are glad he did not breed. As for my non pure breed those, I would never breed those. There are too many non desired mixed pup in shelters right now anyway. For my dads and my pure breed gsd, while I know they habeas great lines answer wonderful temperament, I don't think we could breed them either. I would love to see what the pup would look like but we all know this country has too many dogs anyway. But I do think if my fiance gets stationed over in Europe we will pick up a male German gsd. But i still don't think I would stud.him outt.


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## spidermilk

I certainly wouldn't breed Dax my GSD or Freckles (our Bengal cat). First of all I don't have the time or money and I doubt I ever will have the time!! Second, I don't have the knowledge. Third, my animals don't have 'what it takes'. 

When we got Dax I really knew very little about German Shepherds (other than that they were smart and high energy) or where you should get them. The people we got him from were BYB (we have 2 dogs and we just want them to have one litter! kind of people) They were people who we knew and we liked the parents so we thought it was okay. Looking back, it is certainly not something I'd ever want to do again. There are far too dogs who are unwanted in shelters of BYB quality. 

Even if I were to show and title them and get all the health checks- Dax doesn't have severe allergies but I do believe that he has some environmental allergies that cause a little more scratching and paw licking than normal. I also feel that his temperament is unsuitable for a GSD that would be bred. I think that he is a little on the fearful side. It doesn't cause any problems for me because typically he is just fine, but I don't think that he would stand up well in a very stressful situation. The tip of his ear also folds over- not sure if there is a genetic component or something that happened when he was very young.


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## APBTLove

Nope, Jaeger is a wuss with a crappy ped, and even if everything about him was excellent (ped, health, temperament, drive, etc) I would not breed. 

Why? Because it is nigh impossible to ensure that every puppy from that litter will be cared for like you want for their entire life and it would break my heart to find out one of my dogs wound up in a bad situation - and yes, I would think of him or her as my dog until she died if I brought him or her into the world. 

Sparkles is a 'designer' MUTT with bad conformation. No thank you.


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## Freestep

I love my dogs and they are beautiful and perfect,  have fantastic pedigrees, superb health and great temperament, but no I would not breed them. I simply don't have the temperament to be a breeder, and it's not like dogs are an endangered species. I'll leave the breeding up to people who know what they are doing. 

When I want a dog just like the one I have, I go back to the same breeder and get one that is related. My new pup is a grand-niece to my older dog.


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## Bridget

No. Had Heidi spayed when she was young.


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## Bikecafe

No, even though my puppy is still finding his way home. uppy:


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## Beezy

I would never breed any dog unless it fully passed all tests: temperment, health and had proven his/herself to be good examples of said breed. in Taz' case he is getting neutered as of July 28th when he is 4 months old as I follow my states law and donot ever plan to breed him. He can still do sports altered ya know.


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## Andaka

I don't know what state you are in, but I don't believe that the law is that you have to neuter him at 4 months of age. They law is usually written that 4 months is the age for a raies shot, and that any dog over 4 months o***e counta as an adult for dog count (kennel licenseing) purposes. It would be better if he here neutered at a latter age.


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## Deuce

To answer your original question, no...I would not breed MY dog. He's not of breeding quality and he's specifically a companion pet to me and my family. I called today and scheduled his neuter surgery for Tuesday as a matter of fact


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## Furricane

Good lord no! I can just imagine the horror that would come from a bunch of little Kendra's running around! No squirrels would be safe, or bunnies, or cats, or small dogs! 

Honestly as much as I used to toy around with the thought of breeding at least once, after getting to know our husky breeder, and how much work, time, and money it takes to have a litter....I don't think I could or would do it. Besides, I would never be able to give up the puppies!


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## Maddie's dad

no, maddie was a rescue dog with no papers although i am sure she is pure gsd. i do not know the blood lines she come from... plus shes getting spayed right now


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## Salix

I am thinking about it and in the process of doing more research and making a few connections. We are in the Lower Mainland of BC, Canada, for anyone inquiring or with more information.

I initially never thought twice about neutering him at 8 to 9 months. He is now 1 year old, CKC registered. Then it was brought to my attention several times over the span of the past few months that he has excellent temperament even during his adolescence with no indication of any fearfulness or aggression. He is remarkably calm and easy going, very playful and friendly. He responds well to training. 

He doesn't play well with retrieving in the sense that he will never fathom for the life of him why he must run after a ball and bring it back 10 or 20 times. He does tend to stay near doors and greets other dogs and people. He plays really well with sticks. 

Denver has one digestive issue: He is allergic to red meat. He cannot eat beef especially any raw diet. It causes sores in his underbelly which he exacerbates through licking and can progress to a staph infection. No red meat, period. He is on a high protein salmon diet (with a bit of chicken) from Blue Buffalo.

He is a sable, straightbacked and of German imported parents, on the larger end in terms of size. I have not neutered him yet but if anything comes up that indicates to me he is not of breeding potential, he will be neutered. In the next year, he will have his hips x-rayed and hip checked.


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## codmaster

Salix said:


> I am thinking about it and in the process of doing more research and making a few connections. We are in the Lower Mainland of BC, Canada, for anyone inquiring or with more information.
> 
> I initially never thought twice about neutering him at 8 to 9 months. He is now 1 year old, CKC registered. Then it was brought to my attention several times over the span of the past few months that he has excellent temperament even during his adolescence with no indication of any fearfulness or aggression. He is remarkably calm and easy going, very playful and friendly. He responds well to training.
> 
> He doesn't play well with retrieving in the sense that he will never fathom for the life of him why he must run after a ball and bring it back 10 or 20 times. He does tend to stay near doors and greets other dogs and people. He plays really well with sticks.
> 
> Denver has one digestive issue: He is allergic to red meat. He cannot eat beef especially any raw diet. It causes sores in his underbelly which he exacerbates through licking and can progress to a staph infection. No red meat, period. He is on a high protein salmon diet (with a bit of chicken) from Blue Buffalo.
> 
> He is a sable, straightbacked and of German imported parents, on the larger end in terms of size. I have not neutered him yet but if anything comes up that indicates to me he is not of breeding potential, he will be neutered. In the next year, he will have his hips x-rayed and hip checked.


Other than him being a great pet and companion (Assumed!), what makes him breedworthy - something to help improve the breed - does he have exceptional trainability and nerve (how was this demonstrated?) or greta exceptional conformation (Demonstrated by many breed ring wins?) or ??????????????????


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## Magnolia

I've never wanted the responsibility that comes with breeding.


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## Salix

codmaster said:


> Other than him being a great pet and companion (Assumed!), what makes him breedworthy - something to help improve the breed - does he have exceptional trainability and nerve (how was this demonstrated?) or greta exceptional conformation (Demonstrated by many breed ring wins?) or ??????????????????


Great food for thought. Thank you. I am not quite sure what I am up against as I am new to any kind of breeding and as mentioned earlier, am in the process of doing some research. 

I may be in the minority as I tend to favour GSDs that do not conform to sloping backs. If anyone can share with me, what you call 'breed rings' for 'exceptional conformation' without any indication of arches and unnatural back leg conformations, I'd be happy to look into it. 

I am also not looking to improve the breed at all particularly because Denver does not seem to fit into the 'correct look' of black and tan, slimmer build GSD or adhere to what the general look of a GSD (tan and black, smaller boned with sloped backs) and tend to believe, perhaps controversially, that the norm of the breed should be shifted. If I mistake this general look of most american GSDs, pardon. I really mean no offense. Along the way, I picked up quite a few books and I've read extensively on the lack of favourability upon sables as well. Not only do sables continue to be left out of pictures (as in the website banner I notice above too), there seems to be a real gaping desire for those in the show ring business to have anything to do with them. I am curious: Has this trend changed?

I think I would prefer to look more into his lineage and learn more about his German parents, potentially doing a full DNA test, and learn more about his European build and go from there. I hope this gives a better idea.


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## Freestep

Salix said:


> Denver has one digestive issue: He is allergic to red meat. He cannot eat beef especially any raw diet. It causes sores in his underbelly which he exacerbates through licking and can progress to a staph infection.


This alone should take him out of the gene pool, IMO. You don't want to pass on severe food allergies. There are many excellent proven stud dogs out there that do NOT have food allergies, why would anyone choose to breed to a dog that does?


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## chelle

No. When my son's dog had the oops litter, it was a miraculous thing to be there for the birth and watch them grow. A highlight of my life I'll never forget and always cherish BUT they shouldn't have been allowed to breed since we truly have no knowledge of health histories of either of them. So far, no issues, but the years ahead will tell.


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## CookieTN

Cookie--I probably would not have if given the chance. I'm not completely certain how well she matched the breed standard, and I'm not sure what scores she'd have gotten on any health tests. I know little of her pedigree, and she probably came from a BYB anyways.

Treader--Nope. He's a mixed breed (or so we think), so there's no useful reason to breed him. Let alone that I know nothing of his bloodline or even where he originally came from.

Never mind the fact that I don't yet know enough to be a reputable breeder. I want to be one of these days, but probably not gonna happen anytime soon.


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## CookieTN

That said, at one point the sheriff did ask us about breeding Cookie for the police dog program once. (She was spayed, though, so we couldn't whether we'd have wanted to or not.) I'm not sure what his level of expertise was in finding breeding pairs, admittedly probably not what I'd consider responsible breeding since I wouldn't think a reponsible breeder'd ask about a dog they probably don't know the history of (then again, maybe he knew more about her than I realize), but I think of it as a compliment nonetheless.


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## GSDElsa

Salix said:


> Great food for thought. Thank you. I am not quite sure what I am up against as I am new to any kind of breeding and as mentioned earlier, am in the process of doing some research.
> 
> I may be in the minority as I tend to favour GSDs that do not conform to sloping backs. If anyone can share with me, what you call 'breed rings' for 'exceptional conformation' without any indication of arches and unnatural back leg conformations, I'd be happy to look into it.
> 
> I am also not looking to improve the breed at all particularly because Denver does not seem to fit into the 'correct look' of black and tan, slimmer build GSD or adhere to what the general look of a GSD (tan and black, smaller boned with sloped backs) and tend to believe, perhaps controversially, that the norm of the breed should be shifted. If I mistake this general look of most american GSDs, pardon. I really mean no offense. Along the way, I picked up quite a few books and I've read extensively on the lack of favourability upon sables as well. Not only do sables continue to be left out of pictures (as in the website banner I notice above too), there seems to be a real gaping desire for those in the show ring business to have anything to do with them. I am curious: Has this trend changed?
> 
> I think I would prefer to look more into his lineage and learn more about his German parents, potentially doing a full DNA test, and learn more about his European build and go from there. I hope this gives a better idea.


So what you've talked about mostly is looks. Nothing about his working ability.

And I agree with Freestep--an allergy that bad combined with the fact you you don't work him at all, there is absolutely no reason for you to breed him, sorry.


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## Catu

Freestep said:


> This alone should take him out of the gene pool, IMO. You don't want to pass on severe food allergies. There are many excellent proven stud dogs out there that do NOT have food allergies, why would anyone choose to breed to a dog that does?


I agree with this!!!

Another thing that I notice in your posts is that you have little experience with the GSD world as a whole and its all different trends. You seem to have some preconceived ideas common in Animal Planet and pet websites that are right only for a fraction of the GSD population.

Before considering breeding any dog, even the perfect dog with the perfect pedigree you need to learn more about the breed, its history, function, standard, lines and bloodlines. And I don't mean buy some books, I mean go out there, go to shows, Schutzhund clubs, meet GSD s that do SAR, agility, obedience, service, herding, etc. Train your own dog in something (but if that something test the dogs in different aspects of what a GSD should be, better  ) and learn the strength and weakness in him to start to learn to recognize those in other dogs. 

But I warn you, though it is a long journey, you will become addicted.


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## Dlilly

No. I have no interest in breeding dogs at all. If I did want to breed, I would want to get all of my dogs health tested, and I would to buy good quality breeding dogs. That would mean I would need money I don't have. 

Shiloh is an AMAZING dog. She is beautiful, intelligent, and she has a great temperment. But, she hasn't had any health testing, I know nothing of her family or pedigree, and she is a mutt. I wouldn't breed her.

Delilah is 3 years old now, and she still has that adorable puppy look! She is loyal, laid-back, and just a good dog. But, she has really dry itchy skin. We are still trying to figure out what is causing it. I wouldn't breed her because of her skin, she isn't health tested, and she is a mutt.


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## paulag1955

Good heavens, no! Shasta has had numerous, nagging, albeit mostly minor, issues probably all (or mostly, anyway) related to food allergies. Even if that were not the case, she's over-sized according to the breed standard and leash reactive, although not in a negative way. This isn't even getting into the expense and possible risks of a pregnancy. So...NO! Absolutely not.


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## Draugr

Nope. From my side, I don't have the willpower, money, or other resources (currently) to do so responsibly. Maybe sometime in the distant future but I'm really just not 100% sure I'm cut out for that kind of thing.

From my dog's side, Samson also has some nerve issues (very likely related to inadequate socialization but there could still be a genetic base there and that is not something you should risk, at all) and a wheat allergy. A wheat allergy isn't much, of course (it's not even species-appropriate), but it could indicate a genetic susceptibility to allergies so again, he's not a a picture of perfection in terms of breed standards.


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## JulieBays

Heck no, I would NEVER breed Sasha. She will be spayed as soon as it is healthy to do. I have no clue about her parents and she could have issues. She is very high drive and I am not sure how it's all going to turn out. I'm not adding her genes to the pool because I don't know enough about them.


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## Shaina

It is something I am thinking about in the future. I have an incredibly strong female pup so far, and she has proven to be a wonderful candidate for schutzhund. I know she is young, but her lines are very nice, and her temperament has been wonderful for being a puppy. Very trainable, no health issues thus far, not afraid of anything, comfortable on all surfaces, etc. I wouldn't even attempt to make a decision on it until she has completed her schutzhund 3 with high scores and a wonderful xray on her hips and elbows. The minute she shows any problems, she is out, but if she ends up being a wonderful example of the breed, I would consider a litter or two max if I found a perfect match and got the help of someone who really knew what they were doing. 

My lab.. absolutely not. Nervy, socially unpredictable, and zero drives for anything but me. He is the love of my life either way!


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## Tammy GSD

My two Poms, no way. They both have perfect temperaments, great bloodlines, great personalities both are slightly over standard in size and both (brothers) have prolapsing trachea issues, one being severe enough that since age 2, 2 years ago, we have been unable to find a vet willing to alter him so as to prevent exacerbation of the condition due to intubation and anesthesia.

Patches, my Chinese Crested, were he unaltered, I would not breed. His minimal coat is sparse and while he is a great looking dog with great temperament, I just don't think he fits the standard of the breed.

Sheva, I do think she is breed worthy. She comes from a strong Czech line, has an awesome personality, is solid in her nerve, has an amazing bite with great drives, she is smart as a whip, loyal, energetic and the vet said "she has absolutely everything you want to see in a German Shepherd".

Now, that said, the answer is no, I do not want to breed her. I am too scared, for one thing. Money isn't a problem but if something were to happen, I would just die. On top of that, I think my husband would divorce me, lol. He put his foot on that as soon as I mentioned getting our first dog...NO PUPPIES!! Lastly, I would be just as hard on any potential mate for her as for my own skin daughter...afraid none would be good enough, lol. I'm a pretty picky momma.


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## Salix

Thank you all for your opinions.


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## Pepper311

No way. I will never breed. Leave it to the pros. No need to add to the overpopulation of dogs.


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## elisabeth_00117

With Zefra, she was actually chosen as a breeding prospect (not for me, but for my breeder's breeding program). I am raising her, training and hopefully titling her.

She is a high drive, high energy, sound female. She is so far, at 5 months proving to be able to work and enjoys working. Super engaged from day one, high food, toy, play, pack drives. Really, she has got it all - if I don't screw her up... LMAO. But, I am with good people who are helping me (club) and I always have my breeder for support in her upbringing and training as well. 

My breeder and I are in close communication and I share pretty much everything about Zefra with her - videos included. Also, she lives only about an hour away so of course we visit so she can see how she is doing. 

The final decision will be up to my breeder whether or not Zefra will be bred. Health clearances, working ability (titles), etc.. considered of course.

So I guess the answer in regards to Zefra is - we will see; maybe.

If she is, she will go to my breeders home, whelp her litter and raise the pups and then come back to me and be spayed and live her life out as a performance dog/couch potato/companion as she has been raised thus far.


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## Mrs.K

So if your breeder is having that litter...it is sold in his kennel name right? 

I think it's very convenient for breeders to sell their pups, having them raised by enthusiasts and then having those bitches come back for a litter that is being sold under THEIR kennel name. No costs involved in the upbringing and titling for them. 

Very convenient...


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## ShenzisMom

Mrs.K I think you forget your manners. 

Not all enthusiasts enjoy breeding or the responsibility that comes with it. Temperment testing, finding homes, taking back puppies if the homes do not work out, not to mention potential issues with the bitch and the birth itself.


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## Mrs.K

Then why breeding her at all? There are other great dogs out there. 

If anyone decides whether or not the dog should be bred it's the owner and not somebody else. If it is your dog, it's your responsibility, not somebodies elses. 

I am not slamming anyone, I just think that people shouldn't be so naive in thinking that the breeders are doing them a favor. They are doing themselves a favor.


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## LaRen616

So far Malice is the perfect puppy, confident, friendly, curious, clever, problem solver, gorgeous (IMO) but I have no plans to breed her.

I want to do agility, dock diving and possible flyball with her but that's about it.

Nosework and SAR would be alot of fun to get into as well.


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## elisabeth_00117

Mrs.K said:


> So if your breeder is having that litter...it is sold in his kennel name right?
> 
> I think it's very convenient for breeders to sell their pups, having them raised by enthusiasts and then having those bitches come back for a litter that is being sold under THEIR kennel name. No costs involved in the upbringing and titling for them.
> 
> Very convenient...


Wow... you are assuming a lot there Mrs. K. 

First of all, not that it is your business but Zefra still belongs to my breeder. I have not paid for her.

Secondly, my breeder is paying her for her medical costs (vaccines, check ups, etc.), I have not paid one dime in her medical care thus far (puppy vaccines, well visits and rabies vaccine).

Thirdly, my breeder has OFFERED to pay for her food (and has in the beginning paid me) and training but I refused. I take care of her food (breeder paid me in the first week for her first week of care) and training and toys and such because I WANT TOO.

I have NO INTEREST in breeding but I did really fall in love with this puppy and have wanted a pup out of this breeding for a long time. It was their last litter together. I was not in a point in my life when Zefra was born and deposits were being made on the litter to purchase a puppy or raise a puppy (2nd dog) thus my breeder offered me this arrangement because she was holding this particular puppy back for assessment. I JUMPED at the opportunity and because I have maintained a great friendship with my breeder since Stark was born (and before) I trust her and know her dogs and know her and her family and felt comfortable doing so.

Not that any of this is your business though.


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## elisabeth_00117

Mrs.K said:


> Then why breeding her at all? There are other great dogs out there.
> 
> If anyone decides whether or not the dog should be bred it's the owner and not somebody else. If it is your dog, it's your responsibility, not somebodies elses.
> 
> I am not slamming anyone, I just think that people shouldn't be so naive in thinking that the breeders are doing them a favor. They are doing themselves a favor.


Sure there are great dogs out there, no doubt, but Zefra is turning out to be a great dog too. Who knows what she will be able to accomplish?

And if you would not assume you know everything, then you would of known that Zefra is NOT actually MY dog, she IS someone's else's dog.

I am far from naive Mrs. K, and yes, my breeder is doing me a favor and you know what, I am doing one for her too.

It's a great relationship we have and I am happy to do it.


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## elisabeth_00117

ShenzisMom said:


> Mrs.K I think you forget your manners.
> 
> Not all enthusiasts enjoy breeding or the responsibility that comes with it. Temperment testing, finding homes, taking back puppies if the homes do not work out, not to mention potential issues with the bitch and the birth itself.


I have no interest in whelping or raising a litter but I do like learning about dogs and this aspect of it.

Will *I* breed? No.

My breeder is a responsible one and takes her dogs back if necessary, and has great dogs. She does all the "right things" and I am happy to be involved in her life and her dogs life.

I enjoy raising dogs, training dogs and learning about dogs but I do not want to deal with a litter of puppies on a regular basis, finding homes for them or taking them back, etc..


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## elisabeth_00117

LaRen616 said:


> So far Malice is the perfect puppy, confident, friendly, curious, clever, problem solver, gorgeous (IMO) but I have no plans to breed her.
> 
> I want to do agility, dock diving and possible flyball with her but that's about it.
> 
> Nosework and SAR would be alot of fun to get into as well.


I am starting agility with Zefra next month! I am desperately trying to find a flyball class as well around here but am having no luck.

So many possibilities with a new pup, eh?


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## LaRen616

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I am starting agility with Zefra next month! I am desperately trying to find a flyball class as well around here but am having no luck.
> 
> So many possibilities with a new pup, eh?


Yes! Lots of possibilities! 

I bet both of our pups will love agility.


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## BlackPuppy

Mrs.K said:


> I think it's very convenient for breeders to sell their pups, having them raised by enthusiasts and then having those bitches come back for a litter that is being sold under THEIR kennel name. No costs involved in the upbringing and titling for them.


I thought this was fairly common. My Balto's mother is one such dog. His mother was sold with a one litter breeding rights. She returned to the breeder for one litter (Balto's) and then back to the owners. Sadly, the owners have not been able to get her pregnant. She is a wonderful girl. Just like her baby boy.


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## BlackPuppy

I do not plan on breeding Boaz. (Only unaltered dog I own.) But, if the right circumstances arose, I would consider it due to the lack of FCI papered dogs in this country. I think the probability of that happening slim to none.


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## MicheleMarie

as it stands right now i don't think there is any way i'd ever breed my dog. but i have promised myself that if i can somehow under a miracle get him titled 3 times in mondio or 2 times in mondio and schutz that i will for sure. everything else about him dead on great...temperment, smarts, stability, nerves and looks as an added bonus. i had planned to neuter him at 2 years too...but we'll see how his training is going  lol
but as of right now i wouldn't. and i would only breed him if HIS breeder approved and i would really like for him to be bred to one her dogs. if she didn't want to do that then i would trust her opinion and not breed him at all.


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## Mrs.K

BlackPuppy said:


> I thought this was fairly common. My Balto's mother is one such dog. His mother was sold with a one litter breeding rights. She returned to the breeder for one litter (Balto's) and then back to the owners. Sadly, the owners have not been able to get her pregnant. She is a wonderful girl. Just like her baby boy.



I would only do it if I had the first pick of the litter for free. 
You make money off my bitch, I want a piece of it!


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## ozzymama

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I am starting agility with Zefra next month! I am desperately trying to find a flyball class as well around here but am having no luck.
> 
> So many possibilities with a new pup, eh?


I should pm you, but I don't remember names etc., (maybe someone else will) there is a flyball place in Ayr.


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## Elana55

Atka, Maybe. She is spayed so it won't happen but she is a wonderfully structured and balanced dog and very sound. She is *not* exceptionally soft but she is tops on herding. If I still had the farm I would want to health test her and cross her to a German working/herding lines (Ha. Like those are easy to find these days). Since she is spayed I never had her Xrayed and so forth. No need to spend money for no reason since she is spayed. She has no dysplasia symptoms, wonderful range of motion and shows no signs of lameness or other issues at almost 5 years old so I assume she is fine.

Questa was purchased with breeding in mind. So YES, she is headed for breeding if she passes her health tests. Her sire is this year's Universal Seiger and he just went VA2 in the Canadian Seiger show. He was VA 1 at NASS in 2009. She is a very very well bred WGSL dog and her breeder is my mentor since I have not bred dogs before. I do understand genetics and lines from dairy cattle and horses etc. Her dam is a grand daughter of Rikkor v Bad Boll and her grand dam was SchH 3. She has relations from this breeder that became working dogs, including K 9s. 

Next year we will do her X rays (after age 2) and any other tests and then we will see. I have plans for her and hope to get her titled in SchH. 

However, there is many a slip twixt the cup and the lip and whether she works out for breeding or not is not my focus. I have a wonderful dog first and foremost.


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## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> So if your breeder is having that litter...it is sold in his kennel name right?
> 
> I think it's very convenient for breeders to sell their pups, having them raised by enthusiasts and then having those bitches come back for a litter that is being sold under THEIR kennel name. No costs involved in the upbringing and titling for them.
> 
> Very convenient...


If the breeder and the dog owner have a good relationship, common goals and agree on the terms, I don't think it's a bad idea at all. 

The dog is going to get more attention and training being co-owned than if she had to spend her days at a kennel with 10 other dogs. 

As for the kennel name, if the dog is originally from XYZ kennel her progeny IMHO should also carry that kennel name. Makes it a whole lot easier to follow bloodlines that's for sure.


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## Lyz

I don't think I would breed Helpful Dog. As a friend of mine and breeder would say, "There's good dogs, and there's stud dogs." I love my dog for a lot of reasons, but his portent as a sire is not one of them.

At nearly 100lbs, he's waaaay too big. And while he's mentally "sound," has good drive, very social, well behaved, and tolerant he's not German Shepherd standard, therefor, it's a moot point.

He is intact, but I don't intend to breed him.


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## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> *If the breeder and the dog owner have a good relationship, common goals and agree on the terms, I don't think it's a bad idea at all. *
> 
> The dog is going to get more attention and training being co-owned than if she had to spend her days at a kennel with 10 other dogs.
> 
> As for the kennel name, if the dog is originally from XYZ kennel her progeny IMHO should also carry that kennel name. Makes it a whole lot easier to follow bloodlines that's for sure.


That I can agree with. However, most of the time it just raises red flags if a breeder wants to stud your dog, sell the pups and what do you get in return? You paid the price to buy that dog, you put the money into the dog to title it and the breeder gets a free litter, the money from the pup and more dogs under his kennel name. 

I'd only do it if I get something in return. The first pick of the litter or at least a free stud of my choice out of that kennel, if I'd like to have a litter or he's got to give me the kind of money he'd get for one pup. 
Or title my dog for the Schh2...

Those are the kind of deals you usually get.


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## LaRen616

Sometimes breeders discount puppies that they would like to breed later in life if they get titled and have the correct temperment and drive.

Example: Say breeder charges $1,500 for their puppies, they sell the best pup in the litter that has great potential, so they make a deal with the puppy buyer, they pay $1,000 instead of $1,500 for the puppy, then they train, title, and health test the puppy once it's an adult and then the breeder breeds the dog. Sometimes they even give them a deal on a puppy from the litter that their dog sired/had.

This is what I have heard, I have also heard of breeders giving the pup away for free, so that they can use them later in life for breeding if everything works out.


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## Castlemaid

But in Elisabeth's case, it isn't her dog. It is the breeder's dog, and she agreed to take the pup and raise it. The details of who pays for what is between her and the breeder. 

We have three young females in our club being raised for a breeder that breeds for police dogs. The puppy raisers don't own the pups - they will be returned for breeding once the dogs are older and titled. They can, at any time, decide to buy the dog outright, at which point the requirement to return the dog for breeding is revoked.


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## Mrs.K

LaRen616 said:


> Sometimes breeders discount puppies that they would like to breed later in life if they get titled and have the correct temperment and drive.
> 
> Example: Say breeder charges $1,500 for their puppies, they sell the best pup in the litter that has great potential, so they make a deal with the puppy buyer, they pay $1,000 instead of $1,500 for the puppy, then they train, title, and health test the puppy once it's an adult and then the breeder breeds the dog. Sometimes they even give them a deal on a puppy from the litter that their dog sired/had.
> 
> This is what I have heard, I have also heard of breeders giving the pup away for free, so that they can use them later in life for breeding if everything works out.


The problem with puppies is that you never know how the pup turns out.

That is why I'd never do a deal like that. With a puppy you buy hope. Nothing less. It's just hope that the pup turns out great but until the dog is one or two years old you don't know if they are going to have HD or if something happens like it happened to Judge and me. 

It is why I think deals like that are bogus. You just don't make a deal when you purchase a pup that you promise a litter to the breeder. Once the dog is tilted and OFA'ed it's different but as a puppy? 

That is just crazy and goes against any common sense whatsoever.


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## Lilie

I would not mind my breeder using my dog as a stud in this scenario;

I purchase a puppy from a breeder who has dogs working in a particular field that I am interested in. Say this breeder is well known in this field. They've worked hard and paid their dues and are well respected in the field. They pretty much hold my hand as I raise/work/trial my dog...because of my hard work, their never ending advice and a great dog, we do very well. 

If they requested to use my dog for a breeding, I'd be totally stoked. Not just because it would mean my dog was above standard in someone else's eyes then mine, but because my dog's name would be on the progeny of puppies from a great kennel. My dog would create a historic imprint in the field (s) that we worked so hard in. I wouldn't have to go through the agony of being a breeder. 

My dog making a historic imprint would be worth more to me then any monies made from a litter.


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## Deuce

My dog is not breeding material. He's 3" taller than the standard male German Shepherd, curls his tail and is very timid. He was neutered on July 5th of this year


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## holland

Yes I would


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## bocron

My male Highline, no. He is a nice dog and probably a good specimen for Highline dogs but he is not anywhere near as much fun as our WL dogs to train. Since I would never breed a dog without titling and hopefully Koerklassing first he's out. But he is a great boy, absolutely beautiful (looks a lot like his grandfather Hill v Farbenspiel). 
My latest WL girl, maybe, although it is more likely I would lease her back to her breeder and let the breeder do it. I have bred Beaucerons in the past, and my husband and I have raised a few litters of GSDs over the years and I have discovered that I don't really enjoy all the mess and fuss. I'm a better grandmom . Visit the babies, cuddle and then go back to my house full of adult GSDs sounds perfect LOL.
Oh, and my girl would have to be titled, Koerklassed and all health certs done, too. So guess we'll have to wait and see since she is only 9 mos old.

Annette


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## elisabeth_00117

I agree that puppies are a crap shoot, and so does my breeder. 

We both understand that Zeffie could grow up and not be ideal for breeding, hence the title "*potential* breeding female".

Zefra will remain with me, as my companion and working partner either way, if she is to have puppies or not, she will come back to me. 

We are actually headed over to my breeder's place today with both dogs to do some training and so she can see Zefra's progress and how she is so far (only 5 months old) in terms of temperament, nerve, etc., etc., etc...

I personally think if you have a person (me) with goals for their dogs such as I do (schH/performance home) who have no interest in whelping or raising a litter that you can trust, then a situation like this is ideal for both the puppy/dog raiser/handler and the breeder. The dog is getting the one-on-one attention they deserve and need, the training and hopefully titles they train for and the breeder is still able to keep back their dogs and assess their program and get their name out there in the public (with different handlers) as well as have the potential to use the bloodlines they want in the future if everything goes to plan.


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## Debbieg

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I personally think if you have a person (me) with goals for their dogs such as I do (schH/performance home) who have no interest in whelping or raising a litter that you can trust, then a situation like this is ideal for both the puppy/dog raiser/handler and the breeder. The dog is getting the one-on-one attention they deserve and need, the training and hopefully titles they train for and the breeder is still able to keep back their dogs and assess their program and get their name out there in the public (with different handlers) as well as have the potential to use the bloodlines they want in the future if everything goes to plan.



I think it is a great idea and I would do it in a heartbeat if I had that relationship with a breeder whose dogs I liked


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## CelticGlory

Whiteshepherds said:


> If the breeder and the dog owner have a good relationship, common goals and agree on the terms, I don't think it's a bad idea at all.
> 
> The dog is going to get more attention and training being co-owned than if she had to spend her days at a kennel with 10 other dogs.
> 
> As for the kennel name, if the dog is originally from XYZ kennel her progeny IMHO should also carry that kennel name. Makes it a whole lot easier to follow bloodlines that's for sure.


I totally agree as well. I have seen breeders (co-owners/breeders) use both kennel names for the dogs. So say you have FiFi kennels and Taka kennels (I know bad names, lol). You would see Fifi's X (reg. name) at Taka, etc. I think that's fair. However, if its just one kennel name being used that wouldn't be fair to the other co-owner/breeder involved. 

For the original question. I had one dog and I would never have bred her. She was everything you wanted in a dog, but we knew nothing of breeding back than and she was spayed at around 8-9 months old, like she should have been; especially, getting asked repeatedly by uneducated people if she was going to be bred , she was a pet and part of the family; not a breeding machine.


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## alex9179

I will never be a breeder, too many others out there who have years of experience that I would cede to and far, far too many who don't know what they're doing. When the pups from the inexperienced go to the shelter, I'd be one of the people there to give them a home.

As far as the breed worthiness of my two dogs, one is a gorgeous mutt I'd like to clone and my GSD doesn't conform to breed standard or have a temperment I'd like to pass on...well, except for her loyalty and how wonderful she is with kids. I'd clone her, too, just because saying goodbye to them forever will be horrible!


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## robk

Would I breed MY dog? Cannot say for sure. To many "ifs" at this point. However, I would buy another dog from his breeder in a Minute. I have already spoken to the breeder about buying another pup in a year or two.


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## Gracie's My Girl

At this point, I am not sure. Currently, we only have a five month old female puppy. While she seems to have a good personality, time will tell. I also realize that I would need to be involved in titling her to provide credentials and establish myself as someone who is reputable. In a couple of years, I might consider breeding her if everything lined up...but at this point...I can't stand the thought of more puppies to deal with!


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## killerkrow

*No way*

I love my little girl to much to breed her...I feel their are enough breeders...I got my GSD fixed...Plus I don't want to deal with the menstruation because she is an inside dog. That is my personal preference though...She does have a great personality lovers everyone that I say is okay...


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## prophecy

My current dogs? No.

Beep,No.She had horrid cycles when she was intact.Has a bit of weak nerves(not as solid as I would have liked).Pluses for her is GREAT drives,good conformation,Very sweet temperment.She just wasn't the total package to make her breed-worthy. She is spayed.

Bella.NO.She is not a dog I would have been willing to breed.For starters she was intersexed.So breeding her would not have been possible.She isn't as 'stable' as I would expect a pit bull to be.She gets ''strange'' sometimes,and has some goofy phobias.So no.She is spayed.

Munchie my AB X.Maybe.She has the potential to be a good working dog.Good drives,willing to please.I think she'd be a great catch dog for hunting hog or to do protection work with.She is mixed,however.I am not sure with what,but I am beginning to think a mollessor breed(like a cane corso).Her being of mixed lineage = spay.She is going to be spayed next week.

Mischa.No.She's beautiful,just not a dog I would have risked breeding.Spayed now.

FeNyx.No.Her father had failed his 2yr OFA for his hips.While she shows no signs of CHD,I don't want to risk it.She is to be spayed next week also.


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## selzer

What is intersexed?


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## Draugr

selzer said:


> What is intersexed?


Means that both male and female reproductive parts developed (I think it usually indicates that testicular tissue was found inside a female, or ovarian tissue found inside a male. Though I've really only heard of the former ever happening).


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## selzer

A hermaphrodite? I did not realize that happened in dogs. Learn something new every day.


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## Kittilicious

I've been asked many times if Saki was fixed... and she is. Now I sort of regret it. She had wonderful parents and she is a wonderful dog. Yes, she is purebred and registered. She would have made an awesome mom & I think she would have produced some great pups. 

Knuckles? Well, he's pretty little and I plan on having him fixed as soon as the vet says its ok. I would love to try to get his same colors again, but because he is not registered, I wouldn't anyway. (We did find out that his father DOES have papers, but my sister-in-law (the owner) didn't get them from the previous owner, so this litter wasn't registered and it doesn't seem to bother any of those who got puppies from the litter.) And even thought he's got a good chance to have a temperament like his father that would be great to pass on, I just wouldn't anyway. 

I like puppies, I just don't want to deal with litters or studding out males. I just enjoy the dogs for the enjoyment of having them, nothing more.


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## Draugr

selzer said:


> A hermaphrodite? I did not realize that happened in dogs. Learn something new every day.


Yep. Happened to a...wasn't a half-sister, half-cousin, I think, of my dog? The relation was distant. Anyway when she went in to be spayed the vet actually found a small amount of testicular tissue inside of her, near the ovaries. Vet said it looked "inside-out." A full set of "lady-parts" but there was that there as well. I'd have to look it back up to see the full details but that is what I remember happening.


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## svspag01

*breeding; need opinion on a male GSD, unsure about his size and fur*

I apologize, this is a long post.

My mom and I have always thought of breeding our GSD Tala and recently the time has felt right. She is of high blood lines and checks out in hips, temperament, health, and all papers and qualifications. When we bought her it was for family purposes and companionship but (with the breeders allowance) we decided also not to have her spayed for the future possibility of breeding her and passing on her quality blood lines (as responsible owners we would have had her spayed otherwise). She has been an amazing addition to the family over the years and now we want to see her pass on everything we love about her to other families. 

Originally, my mom talked to the breeders/ owners (Norris K9) of her father (Zidane vom haus sevens) and they said they were not looking to breed outside of their own group of dogs at the time, but referred us to someone else. I don't know why but my mom didn't contact the referred breeder but another one instead and this "other" breeder told her of a dog that would be a suitable match for Tala's Belgian blood lines and temperament. Well, I was not there in person to see this male dog but here is what my mom told me after meeting the GSD in person: Slovakian line, same age (7), smaller than Tala, bi-color, "fluffy" fur, and skinny (she said she could feel his ribs). Personally I was concerned. 

-have photos in an album- Tala is about 80 lbs (all muscle, her dad was 100+ lbs), red sable, and flat, smooth coat (layered, has an undercoat). I have been researching what kind of GSD has fluffy fur and is smaller than our female and came across this passage "_Shiloh Shepherds and King Shepherds are a very new mix (within the past 20 years) of several breeds, based off of the GSD that are much larger and have a long coat. They are NOT old style GSDs_" 

I need experienced second opinions about this dog. He is supposedly SchH trained and has a high pedigree with papers, but I didn't like what I heard. Could he just be small and underweight from lack of food or the type of diet he has? On the positive side my mom said he had a great temperament. What explains the fur difference? I would really like my mom to look at other males before making a decision. 

Help  Thank You!
-Solera

​


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## Draugr

You should be able to feel a dog's ribs. If you can't they are terribly overweight. Depends on how much they could feel the ribs, though. Could have been too underweight. If you curl one hand into a "C" shape, then run your other hand across the end finger joints, that is about how the ribs should feel. If they feel more like your knuckles, then the dog is too thin.

Simply having fluffy fur is not really a good indicator of it being a Shiloh or a King. Could be a long-haired (which I think are not accepted by breed standard) or simply have a plush coat (which is, I believe). Both of those have a very different bone structure from the GSD though. More box-carry of a skeleton if that makes any sense. Different body shape.

I commend you for working with another breeder but definitely be sure that your female has something to offer to the breed. Simply being a great family pet is not enough, and you aren't guaranteed to get that out of the pups. Good to see that you have gotten her health tested, however. Have you considered showing or doing any sports?


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## Doubleyolk

I would not breed my female. I don't need the stress of wondering what would happen when the puppies went to homes and would they be cared for properly. I can think of other ways to make money than turning my dog into a ATM machine.


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## svspag01

Draugr said:


> I commend you for working with another breeder but definitely be sure that your female has something to offer to the breed. Simply being a great family pet is not enough, and you aren't guaranteed to get that out of the pups. Good to see that you have gotten her health tested, however. Have you considered showing or doing any sports?


Thanks for your input! Originally we just wanted a family pet but we became so invested in a years plus research of the GSD breed that we ended up with more than just that, a dog bred from champion GSD lines. Tala was trained in obedience at a SchH training facility but not for SchH levels, it wasn't our goal for her, although I did have a dream to train her for agility competitions. 
As I mentioned, we would have had her spayed if she didn't carry anything worth passing on to progress the breed. I feel that genes are genes, we didn't turn her into a SchH leveled GSD but she was sired from a winner of the World Champion Team 2004 Belgium, and I know the dam was SchH leveled, also with an established pedigree. So even though we didn't focus on her drive for shows and competitions I know it is there in her blood. She is also what the breeder called an "alpha" female and would have made a great competitor. 
I know I am at a disadvantage because I don't have the personal experience but I don't take breeding lightly, I feel very strongly about choosing the right male that will complement and add to Tala's characteristics. I am also prepared to accept that it just might not be meant to happen if we don't find those qualities. We have waited 7 years for the right time and this will probably be a one time thing so I want it to be done right. One thing that stands out most in my mind is when the breeder showed us a dog that came from ill breeding (brought to her by someone who couldn't take care of it); it was out of control and without warning from behind a closed in fence leapt up and attempted to bite my mom's face. Because she was allowing us not to spay Tala it was her example of showing us what happens when irresponsible owners breed their dogs. I'm vowed to not let that be an outcome.

Thank you again :] That cleared up the difference in fur, I suppose plush is the best way to describe it because it's not long. I know I can trust my moms judgment on the condition of his weight, she thought he could use at least 10 lbs. Really what I was most curious about was why he's smaller in size, do you think that is odd for a male to be smaller then the female? I haven't seen that before. I'm sorry for all the questions but I want to give my mom some concrete advice.


----------



## Chris Wild

svspag01 said:


> Really what I was most curious about was why he's smaller in size, do you think that is odd for a male to be smaller then the female?


You said your female is 80lbs and her sire was 100lbs. Both of those are over standard in size. Perhaps the dogs are within standard structurally, but overweight. Or perhaps they are truly oversized.

Given a bitch who is over standard in size, no I wouldn't find it abnormal to encounter a male who is smaller than her. Males are typically larger, yes. But if you have an oversized bitch and compare her to a within standard male, then the male may indeed be smaller than the bitch. Given her large size, and apparently that of at least one parent, breeding to a male who himself carries smaller size within his genes is a good idea, provided he is a good fit in other respects of course, in order to help increase the chances of producing dogs who meet the standard and aren't theselves oversized.


----------



## svspag01

> You said your female is 80lbs...Given a bitch who is over standard in size, no I wouldn't find it abnormal to encounter a male who is smaller than her.


Ok that makes sense to me, actually relieving :] Admittedly I haven't recently weighed her so I guessed on 80 lbs, 70 is probably the correct weight because I likely rounded up. She is by no means overweight, she's exercised daily...swimming, going on hikes, running, very active and physically in prime shape. I'm pretty certain she isn't larger then a standard working line shepherd because the last time the breeder checked up on us at about 2-3 yrs old she thought Tala could be just a "little" longer from head to tail, but said everything looked good. I do have pictures in an album and maybe you could tell me if you think she is over standard, sounds like you know stuff. As for the sire this is him (Zidane) Males, Jabina Falco, Zidane vh Sevens, WUSV, proven producers,Bollo so I find it hard to believe if he isn't standard, he looks right to me (I must have rounded up on that weight too, it was 7 years ago when the breeding happened so can't say I remember exactly).

Thank You for the insight of breeding too large of a dog, that hadn't crossed my mind.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

Castlemaid said:


> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.


Nova my white GSD: ABSOLUTELY NOT. While his conformation isn't terrible and he's relatively healthy, he has a very nervous temperament/weak nerves.

Luna my silver/black GSD: Nope. She's gorgeous and sweet, but her confirmation is off (she's possibly a mix, since I adopted her from a shelter).

Apollo my Rottweiler: He has decent confirmation and a great temperament. I've been told by Rottie people that he would do fairly well in conformation shows. But.. he has elbow dysplasia, so I definitely wouldn't breed him (he's also neutered). Even if he passed his health clearances and I titled him... I'm still not sure. I don't know that I want the responsibility of bringing pups into the world and making sure they have good forever homes (because I believe it's NOT just the responsibility of the bitch owner).


----------



## JakodaCD OA

after reading some of the posts in this thread, I've come to a decision, I am going to reverse Masi's spay, and breed her to my sister's CATCH titled Papillon, they love each other..I think I'm going to call them pap-germs If anyone wants one, email me, I'll be taking deposits


----------



## PaddyD

JakodaCD OA said:


> after reading some of the posts in this thread, I've come to a decision, I am going to reverse Masi's spay, and breed her to my sister's CATCH titled Papillon, they love each other..I think I'm going to call them pap-germs If anyone wants one, email me, I'll be taking deposits


Shepillons would remove the hyphen.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I could call them pap-smears


----------



## Debbieg

JakodaCD OA said:


> after reading some of the posts in this thread, I've come to a decision, I am going to reverse Masi's spay, and breed her to my sister's CATCH titled Papillon, they love each other..I think I'm going to call them pap-germs If anyone wants one, email me, I'll be taking deposits



What a great idea! I think I will breed Benny to my sons pit bull and call them gerbulls!


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## wolfstraum

LOL LOL LOL

Haven't read this whole thread....

but - would I breed my dog??? Most certainly!

She is titled and trained to a higher level than her titles (I rarely track and thus, just keep putting off the 2 and 3! Heats and trying to get pups with frozen semen also screw the schedule for training/trialing up!) She easily passed a CGC with NO special 8 week prep class - given at a doggy event/picnic....she has 2 legs on the CD - gotta get another show in one of these days to finish.

She is Koer classed KKL1 under a top German judge who spoke to me about her pedigree, her strengths and her conformation at great length. The straighter shoulder so distained by show people in the working lines is NOT an inhibitor for stamina in working sheep - it is just fashionable to have the more sloping shoulder according to Herr Scheld!! 

She has been trained and done protection work on some of the top trainers and decoys in the US....she did her Sch1 on a helper she had never seen who is a top National helper...Marcus Hampton....She is resilient, she is stable....her background is 'real' police dogs and producers, not the common sport lines...the breeder of her 2nd dam is a K9 trainer/evaluator/helper in MD...she waited for a year and a half for a pup for a K9 from her...darn that frozen semen not taking!!! She has done hidden sleeve and suit work. She has done AKC work where a dog in the long down jumped up and sat on her - and kept her down! (scary one there!!!)

Taking her to the local pet store, she will 'smile' and wag her tail to suck little kids into petting her...and look forlorn when they stop...she loves children yet has never been exposed to them except randomly in public. She has been trained positively from early on, but can take a correction from a hard German trainer at a seminar effortlessly. Have never needed electric to train her, and really, only have a prong on her "just in case" on the field...

Her pups from the first litter are gorgeous, have wonderful drives, absolutely stable nerves and all live in pet homes. Ix will be titled this winter in CA, and is OFA Good/Normal...Ikon and I-Bengal are SG rated by Herr Scheld, Iroc was trained in tracking by a State Trooper on hard surface and outdid any mali or shepherd he had trained previously...I am working Bengal and will eventually title her....hips to be done after she finishes this heat...another breeder has Image (Wicked) and she will be titled as well.

Her mother was trialed 6x for Sch3/IPO3; WD, CD, KKL1 and produced in only 1 litter (failed to get another with frozen semen) - 2 titled dogs, 1 LE K9/Narcotics/SAR who lives in a home with a 4 year old and obeys her, 1 other C litter did SAR and the last is a companion locally...all were x-rayed with good hips (prior to 2 years)

So the female family is strong, stable and has good solid temperament. The pups she produced are very good. She has credentials and health clearances as do her littermates and extended family. In my opinion, this is the type of dog that needs to be bred to continue a good gene pool for the future. This female will sleep on my couch, do sport, and truly protect in the face of adversary. In choosing a stud dog, there is no question about having to compensate for any nerve or drive or temperament issue - just find one who matches hers and whose pedigree is also free of certain dogs (as per Herr Scheld). No, her pedigree is not filled with recent BSP dogs, and may be a bit unpopular with some...of course, they never saw her or her mother....and I am confident in judgement of the people who have seen her as to her character.

I would not want to breed with any less of a dog than one who has these qualities!

Lee


----------



## prophecy

Draugr said:


> Yep. Happened to a...wasn't a half-sister, half-cousin, I think, of my dog? The relation was distant. Anyway when she went in to be spayed the vet actually found a small amount of testicular tissue inside of her, near the ovaries. Vet said it looked "inside-out." A full set of "lady-parts" but there was that there as well. I'd have to look it back up to see the full details but that is what I remember happening.


That's how bella was.She had ovotestes/shrunken uterus.


----------



## BeautifulChaos

If Ollie wasn't neutered and I had breeding rights to him, I would love to have a pup sired by him, but it would have to be to the exact right female.

He is such a versatile dog. I really think he could excel at any job asked of him. He's a great thinker, has very nice hips/elbows, and has drive that can be turned on or off on a second's notice. Of course, he wouldn't be "show worthy" as far as conformation. He is a very nice looking dog, but looks bitchy. But if it were for working prospect, absolutely.


----------



## anniej

My girl is not neutered but I dont intend to breed her - she is a great dog and from a good line BUT once those little pups arrived I would not be able to part with them - my house just isnt big enough!


----------



## sashadog

wolfstraum said:


> LOL LOL LOL
> 
> Haven't read this whole thread....
> 
> but - would I breed my dog??? Most certainly!
> 
> She is titled and trained to a higher level than her titles (I rarely track and thus, just keep putting off the 2 and 3! Heats and trying to get pups with frozen semen also screw the schedule for training/trialing up!) She easily passed a CGC with NO special 8 week prep class - given at a doggy event/picnic....she has 2 legs on the CD - gotta get another show in one of these days to finish.
> 
> She is Koer classed KKL1 under a top German judge who spoke to me about her pedigree, her strengths and her conformation at great length. The straighter shoulder so distained by show people in the working lines is NOT an inhibitor for stamina in working sheep - it is just fashionable to have the more sloping shoulder according to Herr Scheld!!
> 
> She has been trained and done protection work on some of the top trainers and decoys in the US....she did her Sch1 on a helper she had never seen who is a top National helper...Marcus Hampton....She is resilient, she is stable....her background is 'real' police dogs and producers, not the common sport lines...the breeder of her 2nd dam is a K9 trainer/evaluator/helper in MD...she waited for a year and a half for a pup for a K9 from her...darn that frozen semen not taking!!! She has done hidden sleeve and suit work. She has done AKC work where a dog in the long down jumped up and sat on her - and kept her down! (scary one there!!!)
> 
> Taking her to the local pet store, she will 'smile' and wag her tail to suck little kids into petting her...and look forlorn when they stop...she loves children yet has never been exposed to them except randomly in public. She has been trained positively from early on, but can take a correction from a hard German trainer at a seminar effortlessly. Have never needed electric to train her, and really, only have a prong on her "just in case" on the field...
> 
> Her pups from the first litter are gorgeous, have wonderful drives, absolutely stable nerves and all live in pet homes. Ix will be titled this winter in CA, and is OFA Good/Normal...Ikon and I-Bengal are SG rated by Herr Scheld, Iroc was trained in tracking by a State Trooper on hard surface and outdid any mali or shepherd he had trained previously...I am working Bengal and will eventually title her....hips to be done after she finishes this heat...another breeder has Image (Wicked) and she will be titled as well.
> 
> Her mother was trialed 6x for Sch3/IPO3; WD, CD, KKL1 and produced in only 1 litter (failed to get another with frozen semen) - 2 titled dogs, 1 LE K9/Narcotics/SAR who lives in a home with a 4 year old and obeys her, 1 other C litter did SAR and the last is a companion locally...all were x-rayed with good hips (prior to 2 years)
> 
> So the female family is strong, stable and has good solid temperament. The pups she produced are very good. She has credentials and health clearances as do her littermates and extended family. In my opinion, this is the type of dog that needs to be bred to continue a good gene pool for the future. This female will sleep on my couch, do sport, and truly protect in the face of adversary. In choosing a stud dog, there is no question about having to compensate for any nerve or drive or temperament issue - just find one who matches hers and whose pedigree is also free of certain dogs (as per Herr Scheld). No, her pedigree is not filled with recent BSP dogs, and may be a bit unpopular with some...of course, they never saw her or her mother....and I am confident in judgement of the people who have seen her as to her character.
> 
> I would not want to breed with any less of a dog than one who has these qualities!
> 
> Lee


Lee, 
I now have fallen in love with your female  Hopefully in years and years when I'm ready for a pup, there will still be mommas around like that


----------



## iBaman

No. While his temperament is good, I know nothing about his parents or linage, thus I do not want to pass on any potential hip, elbow or other problems that may or may not arise. Plus he has weak pasterns, and a possible soft ear. 

Someone asked me if we wanted to breed him to his sisters white german shepherd female...I wanted to slap him. I understand whites can be a little hard to come across, I want to leave it to the big kids who know what they're doing ;P


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## iBaman

Andaka said:


> I don't know what state you are in, but I don't believe that the law is that you have to neuter him at 4 months of age. They law is usually written that 4 months is the age for a raies shot, and that any dog over 4 months o***e counta as an adult for dog count (kennel licenseing) purposes. It would be better if he here neutered at a latter age.



Also, I'm not sure if this was answered, but in Nevada, at 4 months they have to be speutered, or you pay a fine. They let us wait until Sheldon's testicles dropped (which was at about 4.5 months). But really, I don't see any problems with doing it that early...he's about 6.5 months now, and he's filling out great. He's still got a little bit of a puppy face, but once again, he's only 6.5 months old.


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## vicky2200

I considered breeding Ditto. She is beautiful, well tempered, and smart. Her appearance does not meet breed standard. She is taller than a female should be ( slightly taller than a male) and has rare markings. However, I was still 100% sure I was going to breed her. She is a great dog! But I decided to spay her about 1.5 years ago. Part of me is sad and part of me is happy. If I were able to breed a dog right now I would definitely choose her.


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## kitmcd

I was considering. Her lineage is excellent and so far temperament is fabulous. Have been told by a judge (used to judge Westminster shows) that her confirmation is spot on.

Have a couple people wanting me to breed with their WGSD males who also have great personalities and lineage. My kids are also begging. However, I would be the one with a litter to care for and Isa would be the one going through pregnancy and possible complications.

She will be old enough in a month. Think I will bite the bullet, do it, and have the waffling over.


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## Tankin

I would never do it personally...however if my breeder (Von Grunheide) said she would like to use him for her breeding program, absolutely.


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## jprice103

Nope. First of all, she is spayed, so there is no way... But even if she weren't...she has too many issues to ever consider breeding her! But she is perfect for me, and I love her!!


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## Pepper311

Well if the dog population was not out of control. I might. Since I am not a breeder and my dog has no pedigree. No I would never breed her she is fixed. Our pit bull would have turned out some great pups with the right bitch but too many unwanted pits in the world. He's 11 year fixed and never bred. But he really was a stub in his day.


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## tank101

Nope(one oopsy littler happened with my moms dog and I am NOT proud of it)!! I dont have a gsd but I won't breed my labs if I could(both fixed)

Tank-Came from a BYB who my cousin got then my cousin abused him. he has aggression issues, panic attacks,bad hips and not the best health. 

Bentley- He came from the pound with un-known history. He has an Show quality body with the field lab type head. So he is un-proportioned but I love him  

mae-she is my moms dog and did have an oopsie litter before we got her spayed. The male that got her was a pure-bred English setter was/is a breeding dog. I didn't get to see his pedigree but He was a beautiful dog and the pups were adorable. I would NEVER do it again. 

My grandpa's used to breed beagles and it takes lots of money. For health clearances,going to shows and or hunt tests ect.. I just wouldnt have the time or the money to do it. When I get a GSD will I..nope. I will leave it to the professionals.


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## GSDkid

Based on temperament. I would but I'm sure there are many owners out there that would say the same. But my girl is spayed so there's no way that's going to happen.


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## LindaDwyer

I am a buyer not a breeder. To many animals wind up in shelters and be put to sleep just because they have no home. I will not add to the problem. And if I ever did breed I'd be so fussy where my pups went I'd wind up keeping them all. My shepherd has a long line of champions in her background but I didn't even register her with AKC I have all the paperwork but I"m not breeding or showing and she can't read so no need for papers. She will be a year old this month and I plan on having her spayed at 18 months. Have all those little girl parts taken out so NO babies for her


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## Draugr

iBaman said:


> Also, I'm not sure if this was answered, but in Nevada, at 4 months they have to be speutered, or you pay a fine. They let us wait until Sheldon's testicles dropped (which was at about 4.5 months). But really, I don't see any problems with doing it that early...he's about 6.5 months now, and he's filling out great. He's still got a little bit of a puppy face, but once again, he's only 6.5 months old.


There aren't any state-level MSN laws on the books. Everything is at a county/municipal level. It's probably something to do with the county or city you live in.


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## gmcwife1

Nope, raising a puppy is hard enough, I would not want to try to handle a litter!

Our GSD is only 13 weeks old so I have no idea how good she is, even though she is perfect for and to us 

Our Samoyed's are both neutered. One has HD and the other has awesome hips but is ADHD, so no go with them either 

Heck even the cat is neutered in our house


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## Falkosmom

I would never breed my dogs as I could never be sure that the pups, or offspring down the line, were assured of great homes.


----------



## Bismarck

For Bismarck?
no i would not breed him if i could.
he has arthritis, and allergies.

For my foster dog?
no, he has very bad allergies.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

No No No!! I know enough neither of my dogs would improve the breed ,particularly w/ temperment. I admire breeders who do it right ,it is hard work and expensive. Im torn between next time we look for dogs getting a purebred from a reputable breeder who has great temperment or just rescue.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

If Buddy weren't neutered, yes. He has a the disposition of an angel, is intelligent and if paired with the right female his offspring would give other people the joy he has given me and my family.

Reyka, unfortunately, no. She skitterish and reactive. I would not want her offspring to suffer her fears, nor people have to deal with a dog that has such issues.

Buddy has no papers and Reyka is highly papered.


----------



## susan.msp

Most of my dogs aren't suitable enough to pass on genetics but I do have a black female from a reputable kennel and I did breed her once. First time I'v ever bred a dog, and the last. Spent a ton of money having her tested for this and that, got the green light from the vet. long story short, She went into early labor, had 10 dead puppies and # 11 came out screaming and hairless. I made him an incubator and fed him every two hours. Most of the time I carried him in my shirt. I can't remember being more sleep deprived. He lived and is now Finn, whom I love very much  I think he is the most awesome dog I have ever owned. Our vet really encouraged me to try again but we chose not to. Ever. I'm keeping my breeding program limited to the barnyard.


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## ShepStyle

> For the sake of this discussion, include all your dogs, and assume your speutered pet is intact if any are fixed.
> 
> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.
> There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING! Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it respectfully, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome.
> 
> I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly.
> 
> So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


I don't think I would. I love rescuing too much! 
The only dog of mine that I would consider breeding is my 2 year old Alaskan Husky and it would be to add sled dogs to my kennel. Although she has excellent bloodlines, she hasn't been able to prove her self in harness yet so if it did happen (unlikely) it would be years from now. I would of course go through the necessary steps to breed; work under and learn from a reputable breeder for a while, health test etc. It would only be a one time thing as well. 

There are plenty of huskies in shelters though so I probably won't. I'd feel a whole lot better about saving a dog that's already here than bringing even more dogs into the already overpopulated dog world.


----------



## Kaasuti

I wouldn't breed Charlie even if i was told he was an amazing dog, ect. My brother has a bitch around the same age as Charlie but i have already said "don't ask me to breed him, it's not happening".​


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## SueDoNimm

No, I would never consider breeding my GSD. He's a wonderful dog and I think he's just about perfect, but he does have some health issues. He's had an ear infection that we've been fighting since we got him two months ago. It's nearly gone now after some serious antibiotics, 150mg of Benadryl a day, diet changes, and lots of cleaning and ear drops. He was underweight when he came to us and we're still working on putting on weight due to his sensitive stomach and the Benadryl killing his appetite. He's picky and normally uninterested in eating and we usually have to sit with him while he eats or he wanders off.

We also have itching problems, which may be flea bite dermatitis. He's on Triflexis, but I think even one bite from a flea can cause him to itch for days. I've noticed that anytime we go to the dog park (with no dogs there) he comes home itching for a couple of weeks. 

He's also oversized and doesn't fit the breed standard. He's 30 inches tall and currently weighs 80 pounds and should be about 90-95 pounds.

I wouldn't breed my little dog either. She's a mutt of unknown origins and has never had a single health problem, never been to the vet for anything other than routine visits, has a great temperament and doesn't bark, snap, or generally act like a menace like some little dogs, she's trainable and adjusts well to any situation, and she does very well on any food and doesn't have any issues with maintaining a healthy weight. But, I don't know even what kind of dog she is, much less what her family genetics are like.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## BobCl

Chicagocanine said:


> I have no interest in breeding my dogs, assuming I had dogs who were breed-worthy.
> 
> Actually the only reason I even have Bianca is because she is spayed. She was supposed to be a breeding female, she was bought by her previous home as a Schutzhund/breeding prospect, was health-tested and had a good pedigree and so on. When she was to be bred, instead she got pyometra and had to be spayed. If not for that she would never have been available to me.


Bella is a very similar experience, except that she was too passive to title, so she was put up for adoption. I got a wonderful new friend who, in turn, gets a comparatively soft life and a spay operation. Despite her health certifications and blood lines she will never be bred because she is not titled.

The difference between a great pet and a pup worth breeding is the health clearances _plus_ titling in Schutzhund, obedience or show. Otherwise, the world is already over flowing dogs that need homes - have your dog spayed or neutered.


----------



## Jag

Even if Grim gets all the titles in the world I still wouldn't breed him... unless his breeder would want to breed him. I don't know enough about genetics, matching pedigrees, etc. I leave all that hard work to the pros and just reap the rewards of their hard work and knowledge!


----------



## KatsMuse

Nope. One is fixed...other not "worthy". 
Wouldn't contribute to bettering the breed at all...still loved though


----------



## rshkr

yes, i'll breed my dog in a heartbeat,
but only to a lion!


----------



## shepherdmom

Nope never, I'd be a nervous wreak.  All the dogs that come to my house get spay/neutered.


----------



## Somethingaboutthoseyes

Nope. I'm pro spay/neuter.


----------



## briantw

Nope. Sandor is neutered, and generally speaking I see no reason to keep a dog intact unless you're going to show it or breed it. I have no interest in either right now, so he's fixed.


----------



## Lucky Paw

I would breed teddy, i have no papers on my dogs but my male dog listens, he is a guard dog type dog who is very territorial but has a great temperament at home, he is good with kids and other dogs (ONLY AT THE DOG PARK), he has a great big boned structure so i know he would be a great stud, not to mention i have 3 pending females for him, every female GSD dog owner asks me about having him as a stud.
As far as my female she is still too young for me to decide but she is great at home and i can walk her unleached and she wont leave my side, she barely barks unless she sees something fishy, she looks like she comes from great working lines so she has good potential, IF I DIDNT HAVE TIME ON MY HANDS I WOULD SAY NO BUT I HAVE TIME AND DEDICATION WHEN IT COMES TO MY DOGS


----------



## Bubbles

No! Once I'm through puppy stage . I wouldn't want another puppy let alone a litter of puppies. That is to messy, loud, and stressful . Spay/neuter there's plenty of dogs who needs homes at the shelter. 

Don't get me wrong bubbles is cute and a real sweetheart . I'd love little bubbles but I couldn't handle it again. Having a puppy is an adventure and a one time thing for me. If I ever want another dog I'd get one from the shelter.


----------



## Radio

I would absolutely never breed Radio.

Oddly, I really wish we could breed Cooper, who is our mutt. I know that breeding a mutt doesn't make any sense. He's a border collie/corgi rescue and just plain delightful. He isn't as neurotic as purebred border collies and he charms the pants off absolutely anyone who meets him. He's funny looking, which strangers find ridiculously adorable. He's just an awesome pet and we're lucky to have found him. I wouldn't ever try to breed him, but I just wish we could clone him a dozen times over and share him with the world.


----------



## codmaster

rshkr said:


> yes, i'll breed my dog in a heartbeat,
> but only to a lion!


 
Better ask him how he feels about that! Heh! Heh!


----------



## Mrs.K

Nala will be bred, her first litter is promised to another breeder who will also pick the male.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Mrs. K - any ideas on the stud for Nala? Any leads? Would be very interested to see the pairing.  You can PM me or FB me if you like.


----------



## pyratemom

I was planning to breed Raina one time before spaying her but she got pyrometra and had to be spayed immediately. We had a stud picked out, had already compared blood lines on both dogs. Hips had been checked out. We were ready and the two dogs made a great match. The stud's owner and I were both disappointed as I had planned to keep one pup and he had also planned for a pup to be his stud fee. I even had people already lined up that wanted pups from that cross. We had a big GSD family of friends in our training class. It really is a shame that it didn't work out as Sagwu (the stud) crossed the Rainbow bridge this year just one week after Pyrate. It would have been great to have one of Wu's pups for his owner and for me. The pups would be a little over a year old now if it had worked out.


----------



## Mrs.K

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Mrs. K - any ideas on the stud for Nala? Any leads? Would be very interested to see the pairing.  You can PM me or FB me if you like.


There are a few males but nothing specific yet. I'll definitely let you know, once things get more serious.


----------



## JediKnight

As much as I love my dog, I would not breed him. I'll leave that to the professionals


----------



## Castlemaid

I just deleted a bunch of posts that was sniping back and forth , and taking the tone of this thread off track. Since the original opening post is several pages back, I'm re-posting it here for everyone to refresh their memory. I've bolded some parts I feel people need to keep in mind. 



Castlemaid said:


> For the sake of this discussion, include all your dogs, and assume your speutered pet is intact if any are fixed.
> 
> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.
> *There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING!* Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it *respectfully*, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome.
> 
> I know this is a very sensitive topic, so *I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly. *
> 
> So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


And for the sake of continued discussion, I encourage people to start threads about the specifics of ethical breeding. 

Thank you all!


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## Glow

As much as I love my baby Bogo I wouldn't..There are many reasons I disagree with this happening but the main one is that I would just want to keep them instead of giving them away! And I really cant have another 4-5 crazy pups around ;-)


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## Lucky Paw

I dont have akc registered dogs , i feel and have been told by vets, trainers, and experienced groomers that i have great dogs. However i know that my males parents are akc i know that his dad has champion lines and grandparents are imported from germany so, i dont mind breeding good unregistable dogs ad providing good pups to the public.
So yes i would breed my dogs and do a HD test before i do so on both dogs


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## codmaster

Lucky Paw said:


> I dont have akc registered dogs , i feel and have been told by vets, trainers, and experienced groomers that i have *great *dogs. However i know that my males parents are akc i know that his dad has champion lines and grandparents are imported from germany so, i dont mind breeding good unregistable dogs ad providing good pups to the public.
> So yes i would breed my dogs and do a HD test before i do so on both dogs


 
And any *great *dog certainly deserves to be bred and thus contribute to the betterment of the great GSD breed!


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## codmaster

Castlemaid said:


> I just deleted a bunch of posts that was sniping back and forth , and taking the tone of this thread off track. Since the original opening post is several pages back, I'm re-posting it here for everyone to refresh their memory. I've bolded some parts I feel people need to keep in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> And for the sake of continued discussion, I encourage people to start threads about the specifics of ethical breeding.
> 
> Thank you all!


A really good question for folks to think about as they try to answer this question is a simple one - WHY?

What other reason(s) besides that you want a "baby FIDO" because he/she is a GREAT dog (whatever that means and it certainly means different things to different people) is the answer that should be thought about and answered by every breeder.

The answer could be a simple one in many cases (if the breeders are honest) - *I make a living financially by breeding and selling dogs.* That might be an ethical answer also if it is true!

BTW, I don't, as I have never bred a dog of any breed in my life and have no desire to ever do so.


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## jourdan

I would for his markings and loving temperament. However I wont because he has the slopped back and I refuse to pass that along in the line. And I do not have his pedigree. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Lucky Paw

jourdan said:


> I would for his markings and loving temperament. However I wont because he has the slopped back and I refuse to pass that along in the line. And I do not have his pedigree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


see this guy is thinking, over the years gsds specially AKC registered showlines have changed, alot of proffessional breeders are breeding this modern gsds with sloped backs for show ($). thats not what you call bettering the breed is it? so therefore if you have a good gsd with almost a streight back big boned structure good hips strong pigment and good and balanced temperament that weights 90+ pounds . you should incourage yourself to better the breed.
Me personally wouldnt do it for the money. and will sell my dogs with a contract saying that for the first 2 years i will check on my pups and their living conditions, if i feel like anything is unsuitable forr the dog i will reposess the dog and return half of the money depending on how much care will be needed for the dog at that point of time travel expenses ect. i will make each buyer sign this contract


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## qbchottu

Although unintentional, this thread has given me some good laughs. Misinformation and sophomoric opinions at its finest. No wonder our breed is what it is!

Oh well. Carry on


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## DJEtzel

jourdan said:


> I would for his markings and loving temperament. However I wont because he has the slopped back and I refuse to pass that along in the line. And I do not have his pedigree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


What? 

Do you realize that having a sloped back means nothing and the most solid, healthy GSDs can and SHOULD have a sloped back in a stack and a mild slope square? That means nothing to the health of the dog.

eta; I would absolutely not breed Frag if I got the chance. Everything's great except for his allergies/skin. I wouldn't want to pass on that for anyone else to deal with. Plus, he doesn't have much drive, is not very aloof with people, and probably has no working ability along with NOT being a showline dog. 

Recon I would totally consider breeding depending on how he matured if I could, which I cannot per the contract. SO FAR, he's got great health, no skin issues, no temperament issues... great working instinct, good drive, good structure. We'll see where he tests at 2 years old. Who knows, maybe he'll be a prodigy and my breeder will WANT to breed him!


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## qbchottu

But Danielle....he has nice markings and everyone at Petsmart said the dog has a great temperament. What more solid evidence do you need that the dog is breed worthy?? 

I like that "no papers or pedigree" is the last prerequisite considered


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## qbchottu

Lucky Paw said:


> Me personally wouldnt do it for the money. and will sell my dogs with a contract saying that for the first 2 years i will check on my pups and their living conditions, if i feel like anything is unsuitable forr the dog i will reposess the dog and return half of the money depending on how much care will be needed for the dog at that point of time travel expenses ect. i will make each buyer sign this contract


LOL
Breed a litter or two. Come back in 2 years and let us know how that contract is working out 

These types of loose contracts are only worth the word of the persons signing off on it.


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## DJEtzel

qbchottu said:


> But Danielle....he has nice markings and everyone at Petsmart said the dog has a great temperament. What more solid evidence do you need that the dog is breed worthy??
> 
> I like that "no papers or pedigree" is the last prerequisite considered


LOL

I completely forgot that Frag wasn't even registered with the AKC. I guess I should have based my decision off of that. 

eta; one vet we used for a while HATED Frag's temperament. Numerous others like him a ton. Members at the park love him and his temperament... what does this mean!? Should I just go ahead and breed him anyway?


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## Lucky Paw

DJEtzel said:


> What?
> 
> Do you realize that having a sloped back means nothing and the most solid, healthy GSDs can and SHOULD have a sloped back in a stack and a mild slope square? That means nothing to the health of the dog.
> 
> eta; I would absolutely not breed Frag if I got the chance. Everything's great except for his allergies/skin. I wouldn't want to pass on that for anyone else to deal with. Plus, he doesn't have much drive, is not very aloof with people, and probably has no working ability along with NOT being a showline dog.
> 
> Recon I would totally consider breeding depending on how he matured if I could, which I cannot per the contract. SO FAR, he's got great health, no skin issues, no temperament issues... great working instinct, good drive, good structure. We'll see where he tests at 2 years old. Who knows, maybe he'll be a prodigy and my breeder will WANT to breed him!


actuallly too sloped of a back will eventually cause HD


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## qbchottu

Lucky Paw said:


> actuallly too sloped of a back will eventually cause HD


LOL
I am dying here


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## Lucky Paw

qbchottu said:


> LOL
> Breed a litter or two. Come back in 2 years and let us know how that contract is working out
> 
> These types of loose contracts are only worth the word of the persons signing off on it.


my older brother breeds UKC pitttbulls he uses the same contract and it works out once you have that paper signed and notarized its going to work. Im not going to say it always works but it keeps dogs that came from you out of shelters . Sometimes you cant help others desitions but you can always rescue your dogs before they touch a shelter and is too late, but like i said i know my dogs parents i know his background so i would breed him, If you dont know your dogs background thats different.


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## qbchottu

DJEtzel said:


> what does this mean!? Should I just go ahead and breed him anyway?


I can't believe you are even wasting your time thinking about this!! Frag must be bred ASAP! I hope Wiva hurries up and comes in heat. I'm bringing her up for a breeding!


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## DJEtzel

qbchottu said:


> I can't believe you are even wasting your time thinking about this!! Frag must be bred ASAP! I hope Wiva hurries up and comes in heat. I'm bringing her up for a breeding!


Haha, they would make adorable pups.

This reminds me of the time my boss took a neutered male in to get neutered because no one ever checked to see that he wasn't! Imagine if someone went to breed their dog and couldn't figure out WHY it wouldn't work. I'm sure there are people out there...


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## Lucky Paw

qbchottu said:


> LOL
> I am dying here


for real guy , my vet told me this and a trainer did as welll, sorry if im wrong


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## Jax08

Your vet and trainer are wrong. A sloped back does not cause HD.


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## qbchottu

Lucky Paw said:


> for real guy , my vet told me this and a trainer did as welll, sorry if im wrong


Your vet, your trainer and you are wrong. HD has nothing to do with the topline. HD is a HIP problem. It is a polygenic GENETIC disease that will be compounded by environmental factors such as excessive exercise too early, too much feeding as a pup and incorrect Ca/P levels for example. If all it took to cancel out HD from the breed was to look for high withers and steep toplines, the breed would resemble something like Horand, but the standard and breed has evolved. Educate yourself about the breed before you decide to reveal incorrect and unfounded information. Definitely educate yourself and find a _good_ mentor before you decide to fancy yourself a GSD breeder. Any dunderhead can put two dogs together and breed them. That doesn't make you a breeder. A breeder is so much more.


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## Lucky Paw

qbchottu said:


> Your vet, your trainer and you are wrong. HD has nothing to do with the topline. HD is a HIP problem. It is a polygenic GENETIC disease that will be compounded by environmental factors such as excessive exercise too early, too much feeding as a pup and incorrect Ca/P levels for example. If all it took to cancel out HD from the breed was to look for high withers and steep toplines, the breed would resemble something like Horand, but the standard and breed has evolved. Educate yourself about the breed before you decide to reveal incorrect and unfounded information. Definitely educate yourself and find a _good_ mentor before you decide to fancy yourself a GSD breeder. Any dunderhead can put two dogs together and breed them. That doesn't make you a breeder. A breeder is so much more.


 
im going to make you my mentor so you can educate me .

so you saying you reather have and breed a dog that looks like a frog reather then one that looks like Rin tin tin. whatever rocks your boat guy


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## Liesje

Lucky Paw said:


> for real guy , my vet told me this and a trainer did as welll, sorry if im wrong


Seriously? I thought you were kidding at first. HD is genetic. It has nothing to do with toplines or the angle of the back or the croup.


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## Jax08

She is not saying that at all. She is saying HD is not caused by a sloped back. You can read, research and try to understand or you can be snarky and ignorant. whatever rocks your boat guy


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## DJEtzel

Lucky Paw said:


> im going to make you my mentor so you can educate me .
> 
> so you saying you reather have and breed a dog that looks like a frog reather then one that looks like Rin tin tin. whatever rocks your boat guy


I'd rather have whichever is going to be healthier and more pain-free.

 That's what rocks my boat.


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## Castlemaid

Back on subject - the next off-subject post gets deleted, and a bunch of other silliness already has.


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## Jax08

qbchottu said:


> HD is a HIP problem. It is a polygenic GENETIC disease that will be compounded by environmental factors such as excessive exercise too early, too much feeding as a pup and incorrect Ca/P levels for example. .


Could you please explain this in detail? I"ve never been able to wrap my head around HD being caused by environmental factors. The hip socket is formed prior to birth so either the socket is good or it isn't.

Obviously, high impact exercise before bones are fully grown could cause injury to the socket and to much calcium could cause bones to fuse earlier. But how does that affect the hip socket itself? Is HD more than just the formation of the hip socket?


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## PatchonGSD

I would never breed Balen. He's a rescue with an unknown pedigree but I think even if he had been purchased from the breeder and had titles and all the bells and whistles, I still think there are way to many other breed worthy dogs out there, and I'd just continue to let the professionals handle breeding. 

Breeding does interest me from an educational standpoint, but I wouldnt want to get involved even if I had breed worthy dogs.


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## qbchottu

Jax08 said:


> Could you please explain this in detail?


We had a recent thread on this that went into the other aspects of the whole puzzle that contributes to HD. I do think environment has something to do with it. A dog with the worst hips will not be changed by what you do or not. All the supplements and restrictions won't change his hips.

But, it can be made worse or not. I do think a lot of those borderline cases are made worse by what is done "nurture" wise. In the end, it is very much a genetic condition, but like with ALL genetic conditions, you need to bring in the environmental component to bring out full fledged disease. I would love if we could map and code exactly on which chromosomes and which genes carry the disease. Then we could start testing for mutations and markers like we try to do with DM for example (yes I am aware of the low predictive value of the test, but it IS something). 

I think of HD like I think of schizophrenia for example. Schizophrenia is also a genetic disease, but definitely made worse by environmental factors like drug use, additional mental diseases, family instability and childhood neglect, physical/mental/sexual abuse etc. It's also interesting that in schizophrenia, there are SINGLE family mutations meaning that you can track a specific mutation that contributes to schizophrenia through a family's pedigree. So it's very interesting...two patients...same disease, same symptoms, but entirely different etiology. I think HD can't be different than that. Different families, different mutations, different genes all coming into play, then factor in environment and you can see how we have so many "different' varying levels of HD. 

I do know of more than one pup that went to the same family with the best of intentions and yet, all of their GSDs were diagnosed with HD or ED at a year old. They are just the sweetest people, but totally ignorant on how to raise a GSD well. Their pups looked like fat little sausages on teeny legs (reminded me of the Disney hippo with ballet shoes) from the time they were 8 weeks old. They had no chance. Each one displayed dysplastic changes and problems with hips or elbows. The fourth replacement was xrayed and cleared by the vet before being sent to them because the breeder had enough with replacing pup after pup. Each GSD from completely different breedings, but yet they all end up with HD in the SAME household. Coincidence? Not in this case. But the fact that they fed these poor puppies enormous amounts of high calories, nutrition dense food from 8 weeks of age tells me a lot. We make sure to call that fourth replacement a fatty each time we see her because otherwise, she also stands no chance with them. So far, with supervision and the rest of us constantly harping on the owners, the fourth one is perfectly fine at 2+ years of age. Not a scientific study or anything concrete, but interesting.

In my own experience, I saw a dog fed highly dense adult food with Ca/P levels greatly exceeding the recommended amount for a GSD pup. The genetics were poor and the HD would have presented sooner or later. But it presented at less than year old and the dog had incredible amount of arthritic changes along with symptoms that greatly interfered with his normal movement. I am certain the dog would have presented with HD, but that food regimen did NOT help. 

Another interesting point, there are breeders out there that will place the blame on the owner if the dog shows with one bad hip because the idea is that both hips are controlled by the same genes so if they are mutated, shouldn't both hips go bad is their reasoning. They will refuse to replace the dog unless you can categorically prove that the one bad hip was not injury related. I'm not sure I buy that, but one of my ortho vets has told me before that he thinks more than half unilateral cases are a result of injury, not genetics. The idea being that injury early on causes the dog to favor one side, this continues as the dog grows and the femur/hip socket reforms, joint continues to deteriorate as the dog ages and then presents with uni HD.


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## Jax08

That's makes perfect sense. In my mind, I got stuck on the hip socket itself without taking into consideration that HD is the entire joint.

Per Penn Hip



> *Dysplasia* comes from the Greek words _dys_, meaning "disordered" or "abnormal", and _plassein_ meaning "to form". The expression *hip dysplasia* can be interpreted as the abnormal or faulty development of the hip. Abnormal development of the hip causes excessive wear of the joint cartilage during weight bearing, eventually leading to the development of arthritis, often called _degenerative joint disease_ *(DJD)* or osteoarthritis. The terms DJD, arthritis and osteoarthritis are used interchangeably.
> CHD was first described in 1937 by Dr. Gerry B. Schnelle. In a paper entitled _Bilateral Congenital Subluxation of the Coxofemoral Joints of a Dog_ Schnelle writes: *"The condition described herein, rare though it may be, should be recognized as being congenital and potentially hereditary, and the dog or bitch in which it occurs should be destroyed or sterilized in the eugenic interests of the breed."*
> In 1966, Henricson, Norberg and Olsson refined the definition of CHD describing it as: *"A varying degree of laxity of the hip joint permitting subluxation during early life, giving rise to varying degrees of shallow acetabulum and flattening of the femoral head, finally inevitably leading to osteoarthritis."* Today, the general veterinary consensus is that hip dysplasia is *hip joint laxity resulting in osteoarthritis*.



Given that obesity or over exercise would affect how the soft tissue forms in a young dog then it makes sense that it could cause (and does cause) abnormal wear on joints.


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## qbchottu

Michelle: good read. http://www.offa.org/pdf/monograph_2012_web.pdf

"Polygenic traits have a range of manifestations from the most desirable to the least desirable characteristic under consideration."

"Polygenic traits are influenced by environmental factors which may minimize or maximize genetic potential."

Let me use this example. Girls and boys are displaying development of secondary sexual characteristics and sexual maturity at an earlier age than ever seen before. Now genetically, you will most likely resemble and develop like your parents did. But with the advent of artificial hormones, increased sexuality and provocation in media, earlier sexual acting out, etc, the age of menses and breast development is getting younger and younger. The genetics will form the backbone of the physiology, but environment plays a role. Things like stress, single parent households, obesity, hormone treatment, hormone use in food, sexual abuse etc will lend a hand along with the genetics. 

Secondary Sexual Characteristics and Menses in Young Girls Seen in Office Practice: A Study from the Pediatric Research in Office Settings Network
"These data suggest that girls seen in a sample of pediatric practices from across the United States are developing pubertal characteristics at younger ages than currently used norms. Practitioners may need to revise their criteria for referral of girls with precocious puberty, with attention to racial differences. "

Is obesity associated with early sexual maturatio... [Pediatrics. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI
"Obesity is associated with sexual maturation in both boys and girls, but the association differs. There is positive association in girls, but a negative one in boys. Maturation status should be taken into consideration when assessing child and adolescent obesity." (makes sense that it lowers for boys, increase adipose/fat tissue means increased estrogen and boys develop later when they are overweight)


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## qbchottu

I really find this part interesting in that ofa report:

"Breed normal dogs that have more than 75% normal siblings—this information is usually not available since most animals in a litter become pets and are not screened for undesirable traits. Breeders can add incentives to purchase contracts in an attempt to gather this information, such as offering reimbursement for a preliminary hip radiograph taken when the pet dog is spayed/neutered"
I VERY much agree with this point. Just because YOUR breeding dog clears fine does NOT mean you should automatically breed the dog. Especially if other littermates have displayed any severe problems. That means in each littermate's gene pool, there exists an overlap. Those same genes exist in the same pool as the dog that is eventually bred. 

A very well known SL breeder comes to my mind when I think of this case. She has one litter that has all HD/ED pups, but the breeder's female is still bred and produces. Yes the breeder's female passed OFA fine, but what does that say about her gene pool if high percentages of the littermates show HD? That is NOT right. I would be very interested in xraying and finding out how the pups out of the bred female fare in the long run. 

I think it is an excellent idea to offer monetary incentives for people to xray your dog's littermate if you plan to breed your dog. If I ever produce a litter, I would like to offer free or reduced hip/elbow xrays before I breed the one I keep back. I want to know for sure how the other crosses from this match are health wise before I jump the gun with my dog. Otherwise, why do we brag about littermate accomplishments? We brag because it means the SAME genes exist more or less in our dogs. But you don't get to pick and choose what you brag about. We need to make a greater effort to make comprehensive decisions when breeding. But again...for large scale breeders, this is not possible. But at least for me, ethically, I cannot breed a dog whose littermates all suffer from genetically prone diseases. That goes for temperament and nerve as well. THere are duds out of any breeding, but we need to play the odds better.


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## qbchottu

Here is the article I wanted to find by Dr Wakeman DVM.
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html

"Over the years, our observations of the kennel populations of giant breeds and their siblings living in private homes have led to the conclusion that there is no such thing as _congenital_ unilateral hip dysplasia, but only _acquired_ unilateral hip dysplasia."

"The conclusion from these observations is that the single most important environmental factor in a puppy's life is exercise, continuous and strenuous. Since this is often impossible for owners to arrange, the next considerations are to drastically restrict the diet of the growing puppy and to avoid strenuous exercise which will exhaust his muscles and leave him unable to protect his joints from injury."

"It has been shown that overeating even within the first 2 weeks of life can significantly affect the outcome of a puppy's hip conformation."

Now I don't know the exact veracity of these claims, but it's very interesting.


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## Jax08

How malleable are bones in newborns? We know we can change the shape of bones in newborns ( just look at some the native tribes that pressed board to babies heads to change the shape). So in my thinking, the hip socket was already formed but is that really true?


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## qbchottu

I am on my way out the door, but I will find you some pictures from my slides that shows the cartilage and malleable joints that remain fluid until growth plates fuse. This is one reason why you can't do weave poles in agility (I hope I am remembering right) till the dog is a certain age or you have xrays done to show for sure the growth plates fused. Same goes for children with rickets. A malnutrition problem during the growth phase that has has the ability to permanently alter the skeleton causing long term implications. The skeleton and joints in young ones (regardless of species) is malleable. It has to be. But it also gives more impact to nutrition, exercise, joint health and proper rates of growth when considering a disease like HD that people like to primarily think of as genetic. Environment/nurture matters!


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## Jax08

You can do weaves. No jumps. 

Thanks gbchottu! It makes much more sense to me now.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I just kind of fell on this thread. Very interesting discussion here re: HD. I have reas many of these links already but not the Dr. Wakeman link. I need to read that. Thanks for posting it. 

As for the original ? Would I breed my dogs? NO. 

Kayos has bilateral HD. Yes she was fed and exercised appropriately as pup. She is almost 10 now and we had one hip replaced almost 5 years ago.

Havoc is oversize by 1 inch and has had allergies since puppyhood. Love his drive, work ethic and socialbility tho. 

Lydi, still a pup but timid.

None are breed worthy.


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## m1953

I would not breed my dog.. She has excellent tempement, beautiful coloring, but has soft ears. She is 7 1/2 months and I have had ear forms glued in for the last month and a half. When the forms fall out, usually weekly, they flop again. I am no longer getting any advise from my breeder, have not heard from him in weeks even after contacting him for any further suggestions. While I have an ear clause in the contract, I would not return her in a million years.


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## Sunflowers

No.
I figure that if Hans's breeder had needed him, she would have said so. She breeds working dogs and most go to police or other agencies, so I think Hans is not what she is looking for as far as continuing and bettering her lines.

Which was very lucky for me, because he made a great family pet dog and I was able to have him!


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## rangersdad

*Would you breed your dog?*

*NO*! #1-There are many people doing it with better dogs who know what they're doing #2-I love Ranger but he is not God's gift the the GSD blood line!


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## FirstTimeGSD

I'm going to answer from a different perspective...I would absolutely breed Jackson, IN A PERFECT WORLD. I'm not GOING to because that would be irresponsible, but in a perfect world, where i could put 6-10 puppies of his in perfect loving homes (pretty much any of YA'LL will do) and I could maybe keep one to watch the potential personality develop...yes, absolutely. Same goes for the first dog I ever had, Molly. I pretty much grew up with her (we got her when I was 7, and she died when I was 22), and I always thought it would have been great to have one of her puppies.


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## MattLink

Link's got a great temperament so far, very intelligent, curious, in good health, and gentle even with his favourite food or toys. 
But even if he was a pure bred, with perfect health etc. I wouldn't breed him because few people are up to the challenge of caring for a pup from start to finish, and I wouldn't want to be responsible for the poor conditions the pups are likely to end up in. There are too many lost and lonelys out there as it is, not to mention those euthanized. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## wolfy dog

I would not breed my dog. I never bred my female because I knew I couldn't part with the pups. 
I will not breed WD (but will keep him intact if at all possible). If I were to get another pup I trust his breeder to have the right pup for me. He has tons of experience and knows what he is doing, no need to re-invent the wheel. After all I got this great dog from him.


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## Courtdar

I thought about breeding my little girl, but she had an umbilical cord hernia when she was born. But i wouldn't be able to get rid of the pups, i would get too attached. Ali has an amazing temperament and wouldnt want it to change.


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## frillint1

I would not ever breed Chief. He has had aggression problems from his past that I wouldnt want to pass on he gets frustrated easy. He may have been different if I had had him when he was a puppy, but from what I know now no way would I breed him

I wouldn't want to be in a breeding business or anything, but to just have one litter of pups I would most certainly breed Smokey(hes a mix), but that don't matter to me. He is a one of a kind dog that I would love to have one of his pups to keep after he passes on. He has an amazing temperament I have 11 nieces and nephews from one side of the family and they are all young petting him pulling his ears and tail and he don't care hes just happy, I let my 3 guinea pigs crawl all over him and he will fall asleep curled around them, he is beyond smart and picks up anything almost instantly and is highly motivated by just praise. He is protective, but not aggressive he loves everyone, but when I need help he is there like he has been before when we had a break him he saved me, just as be saved me from being attacked by an akita on one occasion and a neighbors pitt bull on another occasion, also drug me back home when I fell asleep in a junk yard and got covered with snow. This dog is incredible and it would be a dream to have one of his offspring.


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## GusGus

Well assuming since spay/neutered dogs can pretend they are intact and such. I'll pretend my has papers. I absolutely would. He's gorgeous, healthy and has a pretty good temperment. I think it would be enjoyable to breed a dog. Creating life..making families whole with a fuzzy member. Why not?


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## hunterisgreat

Yes. Both Jäger and Katya are what I consider excellent for the breed. They are both proven by impartial 3rd parties to be of solid temperament and working ability. They are both titled. They both have been xray'ed and checked for other health issues.


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## huntergreen

kyra should have been bred, but instead she ended up with me, just a pet owner who always has his pets "fixed". she was never titled, but excelled in everything, the breeder was actually upset when he saw her two years later and wished he had kept her. all her siblings went on to become k9 police dogs.


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## 3dognite

Rebel-10 years: if he were younger and intact, yes, I would breed. Temperament and conformation, as well as his drive, yes, if the conditions were right I would.

Guinness-11 years: Again if he were younger and intact, we would breed. His bird hunting skills are fabulous and he's been incredibly healthy and has a good temperament. If we had had him tested at field trials, I'm sure he'd have done well--but we wouldn't breed without that.

Tank-12 years: No, I wouldn't have bred Tank. The breeder sold him to me as "pet quality" because his line proportions were a bit off. He was predicted as a pup to be too tall (which he is taller than breed standard) and too long of a line in his back to conform to breed standard. Temperament wise though he'd have passed along a great line. I've had way too many vets and vet techs tell me that he's been unique in their view of Corgis in that he's not snappy and is very laid back. I hope that Shadowwalk (the kennel owners) continue to breed that temperament.


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## Andaka

GusGus said:


> Well assuming since spay/neutered dogs can pretend they are intact and such. I'll pretend my has papers. I absolutely would. He's gorgeous, healthy and has a pretty good temperment. I think it would be enjoyable to breed a dog. Creating life..making families whole with a fuzzy member. Why not?


Because taking care of puppies for 8+ weeks is hard work. Because find the right home for each pup is hard work. Because it is scary to have something happen to your female in the middle of the night.


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## GusGus

Andaka said:


> Because taking care of puppies for 8+ weeks is hard work. Because find the right home for each pup is hard work. Because it is scary to have something happen to your female in the middle of the night.


I'm aware of all of that. Thanks for your concern. I'm not actually going to breed my dog. This was a hypothetical question, so I gave my hypothetical answer. I'm not ignorant to the fact that its not a walk in the park.


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## Zisso

I would not breed Zisso due to his weak temperament; He is scared of pratically everything. Also because he had one retained testicle at 16 months old and last but not least he is a very extra sensitive digestive system. Great guy when it comes to being a pet, but enough faults to not be breed worthy. 

I would not breed Nadia because while she is a great girl, devoted, solid digestive system, etc, she is a nipper and is easily spooked by items like tools-as simple as a tape measure. This 'may' have much to do with her upbringing as I got her at 16 months old, but I have not been able to undo whatever was done to her and simply manage her bahavior. 

Even if they were both breed worthy, I don't think I would want to breed. I might enjoy puppies like everyone else, but feel it is best to leave breeding to the professionals


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## Liesje

I'm sure I answered this earlier but I'll answer again as circumstances change and I can now give a definite answer 

Nikon has an AI lined up for February and possibly two other litters lined up for 2013 (I'll be keeping back a puppy so I can observe how he produces) so I'll just comment based on my experience, this being the first time I'm involved in breeding anything (I don't come from a background or dogs or horses or livestock). I'll say that it is a lot of work, even owning just the male half of the breeding! (So I don't have to deal with the heat cycles, progesterone testing, whelping the litter, placing the puppies...) For one thing, I've spent the better part of four years raising, socializing, training, showing, certifying, titling my dog (and will continue to do so, since that is why I own him, not just to get a breed survey and breed the heck out of him). I drive 2.5 hrs each way just for regular SchH training (and any events hosted by our club) and I usually travel once a month for a flyball tournament or some other event my dogs participate in. Honestly he would have to sire dozens of litters to ever "get back" in stud fees what I put into him and that's just the money aspect, not the time and energy and emotional aspect of owning a dog that is my partner, my protector, and my best friend. It is not cheap or easy to do right. For example last night I had to get my dog into the vet to see if he is even "collectible" for AI (some dogs don't want to be handled, some won't "perform" without a real bitch) and check to see if he has viable sperm. So that was an extra trip out to the vet and $$$. Then I realized that if you do AI you have to do DNA with AKC so I just ordered the DNA kit and spent more $$$. Between every natural breeding I need to do a brucellosis test. Also the DM testing is becoming more popular so I'm planning on doing that (next paycheck!). For AI I have to be able to rush my dog off to the repro vet at a moment's notice and have that all lined up ahead of time. For normal breeding I have to be able to accomodate the bitch for several days. None of this you can schedule ahead of time because it depends on the bitch's cycle, when she is ready then you have to meet or rush your dog to the vet. We haven't even done ONE breeding yet and I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it!


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## m1953

No, she has great temperament, a great personality, great coloring, but soft soft ears and an overbite


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## KayleeGSD

We actually considered breeding Kaylee, but decided not to for several reasons. We like to keep a close watch on our dogs health and regular check ups to make sure they are healthy. Kaylee is a normal working line dog and healthy. What made us not want to breed her is issue one. We would have to find the right male which is not easy. 

The second concern was when the pups are born and they find homes are these people going to have what it takes to handle dogs like Kaylee? So many good young GSDs end up in a rescue because people could not handle them.

Last if we did breed any dogs we would actually put up a kennel for them and add on to the house with an extra room just for the dogs and pups to be indoors in a safe puppy proof area. So we decided to get her fixed and not breed her.


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## Jack9211

No. I would never breed Ben. I would want to keep all the pups, and my wife would throw me out. And I do not have the knowledge or time required to better the breed


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## zivagirl

Ziva comes from two great lines - and the breeder will have breeding rights. Were it not for this fact, she would be immediately fixed. I love the breed and know that I'm not experienced enough (nor rich enough) to be a responsible breeder. All of our animals are fixed.

I leave the rest up to the responsible professionals.


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## lorihd

No, i wouldnt breed my dog, its too much work!!!!! i think the deciding factor would be having to find good homes for the pups (something id lose sleep over). i would like to add another dog to my home, perhaps in a year or two, and i might rescue one, or ill pay a breeder for my next dog, there are plenty of dogs to choose from.


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## Phoebes

I would love to breed my dog. He's expected to grow bigger than standard, so it's not about AKC conformation but because of the type of coat he has, his size, his temperament...plus I'm in love with his looks, he'll be perfect as my service dog. So I'd love for my next service dog to come from him.

However I would only want him to have a litter of 3 because I could handle 2 and my uncle wants one. So the reality is that I don't think I could breed him because I don't know how to select the right bitch and I couldn't let go of the puppies. If I did I'd probably have the most impossible, demanding contract ever!


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## LoveEcho

No. My dog has a great temperament for a pet and killer "movie star" looks (someone else's words, lol) and I love him very, very much, but he is outside of breed standard in terms of height, by several inches, and lacks drive. He can also be skittish, he does not have the rock solid nerves that should be present in this breed. His hips have been rated "good" and he has his CGC, but otherwise I would not be able to title him in conformation and he does not have the temperament for schutzhund.


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## LeoRose

Nope. Never. 

For starters, I don't "do" puppies. I'm just not a "puppy person". 

Moving on to the individual dogs....

Rat Terrier Lucky has (suspected) Legg-Calve-Perth, which is a hip problem that has a genetic link, rather like HD. 

Ilka is a mutt. Reason enough right there to not breed her.

Leo has a super soft temperament, and some conformational faults that don't need to be passed along. Oh, yeah, she was a stray, so I have _no idea_ about her genetics.


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## DollBaby

No. Absolutely no desire to breed her


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## gsdlover91

No. I know nothing about breeding dogs, let alone GSD's. I just have no desire to ever let any of my dogs breed.


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## Loneforce

I agree No No No!


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## GerMutt

I have this "thing" where I picture all of my girls (horses, dog, cat...) being a mama. I love them so much that I would just love to see them have little versions of themselves, not to mention, I would love to have their babies around. That said, I would never actually breed my dog (or have my little guy mate with a female). It's not because she isn't purebred, not because she is already spayed, but because there are already far too many dogs in this country (world, really) and I would never want to contribute to the problem.


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## Felix's Proud Mammy

No. Simply because Felix is a German bred and born GSD. His parents and lineage are all hip certified as they are required to be. Here, the breeders are a bit more sketchy and there is no garuntee of being able to replicate his color or size (which is the number one reason people proposition us for breed ops--and exactly why we had him neutered). Also, his prey drive and energy level are particularly high. It would require someone with a vast background in GSDs, not someone that's just "winging it"--that's how most GSDs end up in shelters now. Last and biggest point: I did not get a dog to turn him into a puppy factory. It's the most demeaning thing you can do to a dog IMHO.


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## msvette2u

Castlemaid said:


> For the sake of this discussion, include all your dogs, and assume your speutered pet is intact if any are fixed.
> 
> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.
> There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING! Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it respectfully, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome.
> 
> I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly.
> 
> So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


None of my dogs (despite most being purebred) are remotely breedworthy, especially Ruger, although he's got a phenomenal personality/temperament. His elbows are shot so I'd avoid that anyway. The Dachshund aren't spectacular in any way, and the prettiest ones are double-dapples, bad combo. 

But Libby. Yes. If I could find a male like her, I'd do it. She's one of those "naturally good" dogs that needed little to no training to be "good". 
There'd be a market for puppies like her, as well, as pets or working dogs.


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## Gharrissc

If I were interested in breeding, I would consider Casja based on her solid temperament and overall health. I know her former owner had all of his dogs' hips scored even though he didn't plan to breed. I would have to consider other things if I were a breeder but Casja would be at the top of my list. She is the only dog that I've had here that I would consider sound enough to even think about breeding,and I've had a lot of dogs here.


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## msvette2u

Yes, that's why I'd breed Libby, she's got excellent health, no issues, allergies, hips and joints are fine, and temperament and beauty to boot.


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## TxFig

Over that last 25 years I have raised, trained, trialed, judged, and (occasionally) bred Labrador Retrievers. In ~5 weeks I'll be getting my first GSD in over 25 years. At this point, I can't say whether I will breed her or not - she's only 3 weeks old, which is far too early to give an answer either way.

IF I do decide to breed her, it will only be after she meets all the normal health clearances as well as earns titles which indicate she is a credit to her breed (titles in both confirmation as well as temperament/performance).


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## Kaasuti

I'd love to let Charlie have babies. He has an amazing temperament, is a stunning looking dog and so far he seems healthy (don't know his elbow,hip scores yet though). But with so many dogs/puppies in need of rescue it's something i couldn't do.​


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## autoluver

No - I will not breed Quark. She turns one on 3-9-2013 and I'll probably get her fixed after she turns two.


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## mandiah89

No I will not breed my GSD, Penny. Not only does she not have papers, but the main fact is it is heartbreaking to me to see so many dogs, not just GSD's that are sitting in shelters without a home. I also would not put her in harms way by letting her breed.


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## hanahughes120311

We want to breed out GSD Ariah, i want her to experience what having babies is like before getting Spayed. And we will only let people we know have her puppies as we want to make sure they are going to good homes.


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## Cassidy's Mom

hanahughes120311 said:


> We want to breed out GSD Ariah, i want her to experience what having babies is like before getting Spayed.


Why do you think it would be important for her to experience what it's like to have babies? :thinking:


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## codmaster

hanahughes120311 said:


> We want to breed out GSD Ariah, i want *her to experience what having babies is like *before getting Spayed. And we will only let people we know have her puppies as we want to make sure they are going to good homes.


 
*GREAT *reason to bring more GSD puppies into the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## selzer

Castlemaid said:


> For the sake of this discussion, include all your dogs, and assume your speutered pet is intact if any are fixed.
> 
> Would you breed him/her? Why? Why not? Explain yourself.
> There are no right/wrong answers for the sake of this discussion, so NO BASHING! Please make sure if you disagree with a person that you do it respectfully, and allow others to share their thoughts and views without feeling attacked. At the same time, questions and scenarios designed to bring new thoughts about breeding decisions made or not made to the forefront are welcome.
> 
> I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I expect all members to moderate themselves accordingly.
> 
> So, would you breed your dog? Have you?


Let's keep in the spirit of the OP and not bash, this is hypothetical.


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## zivagirl

hanahughes120311 said:


> We want to breed out GSD Ariah, i want her to experience what having babies is like before getting Spayed. And we will only let people we know have her puppies as we want to make sure they are going to good homes.


:rofl: you're kidding...right? Do you really think she'll miss not having puppies? Wy not have her fixed and talk to the people you know about adopting a rescue? I'm thinking your girl will appreciate your responsible efforts on behalf of her kind.


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## selzer

Are the people on this site really incapable of reading the OP and following the spirit of a post?


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## angelas

This is an old thread that was bumped by someone who wants to breed their female "so she can have the experience of having puppies" which is why people are responding the way they are now.


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## zivagirl

You're right, Selzer.


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## angelas

Breeding is necessary yes, but that doesn't mean that everything with a functioning uterus or testicles should procreate.


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## zivagirl

CarrieRamirez said:


> Breeding is necessary if every individual stops this nonsense thing then i fear that dogs number may decrease reluctantly


I don't foresee a dog shortage in our lifetime.


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## Cheyanna

*Breeding? WHY? WHY NOT?*

It sounds as if some people think that there is no good reason to breed a dog. I am not sure I accept that. My breeder makes his living that way. That is how he supports his family along with training. I don't think I want to take that away from him.


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## GatorDog

Cheyanna said:


> It sounds as if some people think that there is no good reason to breed a dog. I am not sure I accept that. My breeder makes his living that way. That is how he supports his family along with training. I don't think I want to take that away from him.


I know of people who sell drugs for a living. Does that mean it shouldn't be taken away from them either? Just because its a way to make money doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Someone who only breeds for money is the last thing I'm looking for in a reputable breeder. I don't consider money a good enough reason to be putting two dogs together and popping out puppies for cash. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## codmaster

Cheyanna said:


> It sounds as if some people think that there is no good reason to breed a dog. I am not sure I accept that. My breeder makes his living that way. That is how he supports his family along with training. I don't think I want to take that away from him.


 
The only good reason to breed a GSD is to at least make an honest attempt to better the breed!

If the only reason that your breeder breeds GSD's is to "make a living" - do you see much of a difference (if any) between him and the places that suppy pet stores??? I don't! Or maybe a BYB on a commercial scale?


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## Linda1270

No I would not breed my GSD, I will leave that up to the folks who have the experience, if that's what they choose to do. There are more than enough unwanted pups in this world and the thought of not being able to provide enough good homes for my puppies would weigh heavy on my mind.

I would love to experience Tess bringing new puppies in to this world, but then again, the thought of 10 or even 12 little land sharks running around my house is one scary thought......thinking of Tess when she was 8 weeks old and then having maybe 12 of her.....


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## selzer

codmaster said:


> *The only good reason to breed a GSD is to at least make an honest attempt to better the breed!*
> 
> If the only reason that your breeder breeds GSD's is to "make a living" - do you see much of a difference (if any) between him and the places that suppy pet stores??? I don't! Or maybe a BYB on a commercial scale?


I disagree with this. I think way too many people go about trying to better the breed, and the results are ski-slopes, and roach-backs, and over-sized dogs, and no off-switch, and dogs that can't function as family pets, and dogs that are afraid of storms and fireworks, and the list goes on and on. Yes, some of that comes from shoddy breeding practices, and some comes from breeding for one quality with less regards to the rest of the dog. 

I think that we should breed to preserve the breed. We should try to breed the best representative to the standard that we can. This is not an improvement on the breed, but a preservation of the breed.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> I disagree with this. I think way too many people go about trying to better the breed, and the results are ski-slopes, and roach-backs, and over-sized dogs, and no off-switch, and dogs that can't function as family pets, and dogs that are afraid of storms and fireworks, and the list goes on and on. Yes, some of that comes from shoddy breeding practices, and *some comes from breeding for one quality with less regards to the rest of the dog. (BTW - THIS is NOT an example of breeding to "Better the Breed!")*
> 
> I think that we should breed to preserve the breed. *We should try to breed the best representative to the standard that we can*. This is not an improvement on the breed, but a preservation of the breed.


 
*Exactly what I said!* Unless you think that the breed is perfect now, (you don't i am assuming!) then why shouldn't every breeding be done with this intent? 

The faults that you mention above (and there are a lot of them) DO NOT result from trying to better the breed; but from either ignoring this recommendation or from simply not doing it correctly (i.e. mistakes! in the breeding).

Try not to confuse the goal/objective with the common mistakes in it's application. Very common to do so, however!


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## Bubbles

I'd breed bubbles if I could keep all the puppies. I decided a litter of puppies just for me is better to dream about than the reality of it. 

Bubbles is spayed BTW.


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## arycrest

CarrieRamirez said:


> i would never breed my dog as i dont want to play with the lifespan of my doggie. breeding them really costs their life and reduces their immune power


I never heard this theory before except when there's a problem, could you please give more details? Are you speaking of bitches or both bitches and dogs?


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## Bubbles

maybe a house full of puppies.... awww  .


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## Castlemaid

arycrest said:


> I never heard this theory before except when there's a problem, could you please give more details? Are you speaking of bitches or both bitches and dogs?


Carrie only signed up to start spamming with a link in her signature, so all her posts are nonsense generalities with stuff that sounds made up. Her posts have been deleted and she is banned.


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## Jordan1017

Our new/only girl Abigail, no, too much work pretending she had breeding prospect. We have no intentions of spaying but either way we're not interested. We did our old gal, but she had all the works done and a solid dog. We had two litters and while we had homes all covered before whelping, it's a lot of work and responsibility. We were constant hands on with each pup as a litter and individually, which resulted in great pups socialized with family atmosphere, but I fell in love with them all. 
Our other girl we had gotten a few years after losing our old gal, not a chance. She was mental. Total medicated dog for stress and anxiety which unless you seen her off her meds, you'd still think she's nuts. We made the hard decision of rehoming her to a home we screened that we felt would be more relaxing (we have small children which she was great with, but the the constant chaos was hard on her.) She is doing amazing there now, so long as they don't bring her into large crowds or leave her for long periods. They've had her for about two years now. She would have done the breed an injustice to breed.


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## angierose

I'd not breed either of my dogs. I don't know Sam's history since he's from the shelter, so that's one strike against him. He also tends towards anxiety. Kaylee is beautiful, smart, friendly,and fun, but her nerves aren't solid enough. It takes her a while to recover from frights. 

Plus I don't think I would have the patience for a house full of puppies.


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## katro

No, probably not (not that I could anyway, he's neutered). Ralphie's a resuce so I have no idea what's in his genetic or behavioral history. He's a very timid guy, too. Though, if breeding solely for looks was appropriate, then yes, of course because he's one handsome man!  A friend of mine who has a spayed female GSD & Ralphie would produce some interestingly colored beauties!


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## Merciel

Sweet jeebus no I'd never breed either of my (mercifully neutered) mutts.

First off, they're mutts.

On top of that, Pongu's insane. I've talked about his issues before. He's extremely intelligent and extremely devoted, and he _loves_ to work his furry little butt off in the Rally ring, but he is completely and totally bonkers. Fear aggressive, super anxious, OCD, self-mutilating, etc. etc.

On top of _that,_ Crookytail's dense as a lead fruitcake. He is a very sweet and loving dog, extremely sociable and gentle with the fosters, basically your perfect family pet (down to a big scary-sounding guard dog bark, minus any real threat, when strangers come to the door, which is all most pet owners really want when they say they want a "protective" dog). But he is not smart.

He isn't actually stupid, except by comparison with Pongu, but there's just nothing about him special enough to warrant passing down to the next generation. Crooky is a poster child for the sweet, stable family dog that gets bred because "we love him so much and he's a great dog." But I wouldn't breed a dog for that, so Crooky got snipped.


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## frillint1

Although on my previous post a few pages ago I stated I would never ever breed Chief, but I would indeed want one of Smokeys offspring. Its just a want I love this dog with every fiber in my body. I had the chance to breed him, but even if it was an offspring its not him, so I didn't. Hes to old now to breed even if I really wanted to, but still would want an offspring. Kind of conflicting I do want one but I actually don't hmmm


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