# Quick Help Needed: Raw Food Diet



## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

Hi,

I am bringing home my new GSD (15 weeks old) this weekend. I just got a curve ball from the breeder last Friday - a mailing that gave me instructions for pick up and food. I knew there were benefits to feeding raw, but I didn't know puppies ate it as well. Turns out, he has been eating it and I don't want to change now.

I spoke with my friend - she is a vet - and she knew very little about the diet and recommended Science Diet. Tpyical vet response in my opinion. Note: I have a very sick cat, and the be-all-end-all Science Diet and/or Hills Rx has only made him sicker over the last 3 years…









Anyway, I did online research about the Raw Diet this weekend. I read nearly all the posts on this forum. I went to various recommended links to learn more, etc. I am still lost as to what to buy and from where. The breeder recommened one company; however, their website leaves a lot to be desired and confised em even more with freeze dried options, flakes, and frozen patties… I also didn't understand how much to feed the pup and the prices were very out of what I conisder reasonable (need to keep this at/under $25/week). 

As time of of the essense for me to order (like today) to be here by the pup's arrival on Saturday, I am looking for some direct "straight talk" about what I need to buy and do. Can you help me answer the following:

1) Where can I buy the food?
2) What do I need to buy for a 15 week old male pup (weighs about 40 lbs)?
3) How often do I feed him (I believe 2x/day based on posts I read)?
4) How much do I feed him?

Thank you in advance…


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Quick answer until you get more info:

For the time being, you can buy turkey necks, chicken wings, chicken leg quarters, chicken backs, chicken livers, ground beef to get you started at the grocery store/butcher. 

Feed about 2 pounds a day. Divide this up into two or three meals a day. Organ meats, like the chicken liver, should be fed sparingly, but is very important to round out the raw diet. About one chicken liver every two/three days is fine. You can also get kidney, spleen, or other type of livers, and feed a chunk about the size of a chicken liver. 

Watch you pup to see if you are feeding enough, the two pounds a day is a ball park figure. Adjust up or down if he is too skinny, or getting too roundish. 

I add raw eggs (shell and all), sardines, canned clams, for variety. 
One raw egg, or one can of sardines, etc, per day - and it is okay if you skip a day or two. 

If the poops are whitish, hard, and break apart and are powdery, you are feeding too much bone. Increase you meat to bone ratio. In my opinion, a chicken leg quarter is about the ideal meat to bone ratio in a meal, so I use that as a guide in preparing/organizing meals with other type of meats. Don't worry about getting the right ratio exactly at every meal - the importance is getting it right in the long run. You can have a meal with very little bone or no bone, and the next with more bones to balance it. 

A nice snack for my pups are frozen chicken feet - they just love them!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

A location would help - so we can give you sources NEAR you.

What exactly has the breeder been feeding and how much (in ounces - not numbers).


Here's the basics ...

Dogs needs protein and fat.

There are four categories of ingredients in the raw diet:

Meat WITH bone
Meat without bone
Organ meat
Everything else (ie: fruits, veggies and grains)

Dogs MUST have the first three categories - the fourth is optional.

RAW bones are safe - cooked are not.

You can feed whole items or ground - both work but whole items will help alleviate your puppy's need to chew on things.

You want to feed approximately 7% of the puppys 8 week old weight in food each day. I say *approximately* because this value can/will change weekly.

Puppys go through growth spurts when you might be feeding them almost double a normal amount just to keep up with their growth. And they go through periods when they don't seem to need nearly sa much as the week before.

There is no set amount to feed. Keep your puppy looking lean and fit and you are feeding the right amount.









What to feed:

Meat WITH bones = Raw Meaty Bones = RMBs

Chicken necks
Chicken wings
Chicken legs
Chicken thighs
Chicken leg quarters (leg and thigh combines)
Turkey necks
Pork or Lamb neck bones
Lamb breast
Etc.

Meat without bone = Muscle Meat = MM

Beef, pork, lamb heart (usually pretty cheap)
Any ground meat - like beef or turkey

Organ meat = OM

Kidney
Liver (very rich - use small amounts)
Brains

The diet consists of roughly 50% RMBs, 45% MM and 5% OM each day.

If you feed RMBs that are higher in bone (like turkey necks) - you might want to lower the percentage to a bout 40% and increase the MM to about 55%.

Hope this helps you get started.

Also, with growing puppies I usually recommend a basic multi-vitamin. Just to cover all the bases. I use and recommend the B Naturals products (http://www.b-naturals.com/). I get the Immune Blend and give it at half the dosage suggested. It's almost the same as the Daily Blend but about half the price.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks Castlemaid. 

Any other recs? Perhaps companies that have the food already prepared so I 100% know the pup is getting proper nutricion?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not familiar with prepared raw diets - but it will get VERY pricey to go that route. 

If you are interested in finding out more about commercially available raw diets, call your pet stores and ask if they carry any, and how much it is, and you can ask about it on this forum. Others (like Lauri from the Raw Dog Ranch), are very knowledgeable and experienced in all things raw.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GrisNMeThanks Castlemaid.
> 
> Any other recs? Perhaps companies that have the food already prepared so I 100% know the pup is getting proper nutricion?


You will NOT get that for $25 or less per week.

If you want a premade you will be paying for the convienence. Most start at about $2.00 per pound. 

Let's say you are feeding about 2.5 pounds per day (just an estimate). That's about 18 pounds per week - which will be around $36.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangYou will NOT get that for $25 or less per week.
> 
> If you want a premade you will be paying for the convienence. Most start at about $2.00 per pound.
> 
> Let's say you are feeding about 2.5 pounds per day (just an estimate). That's about 18 pounds per week - which will be around $36.


Thanks for the heads up. Sorry, again, not to sound dumb, but I am a little taken aback here. 

I am in Charlotte, NC. 

The breeder had been feeding him the Meat Eaters Diet from http://www.animalfood.com/. Quantity is TBD, I am waiting feedback from them.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I will say that Leyna and Levi loved that food! But, like Lauri pointed out - it is way too expensive for us to feed on a normal basis. The cheapest way to feed raw (that we have found) is to find a bulk meat distributor in your area and buy a chest freezer. I still use the pre made stuff on occasion - but only when we are traveling. I try to keep my costs around $1/lb - some items are closer to .50/lb and others are over $1/lb - so it evens out.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Ok, here's my #1 complaint about this company (I've been through this before with others):

They do NOT use USDA approved ingredients in their products.

Quotes from their website:

100% USA made
USA Grown Meat

And my favorite:



> Quote:exclusively procured from USDA Human Grade Meat Processing Plants


Note that they say procured *FROM* - not that the ingredients *ARE*.

They can be using the 4 D meats in their products - Diseased, Downded, Dying and Dead. These can be "procured" from a USDA processing plant. It's the garbage they throw out.

The stuff I price quoted is made from 100% USDA approved, human grade INGREDIENTS. That is why they are more expensive.

So, you have three choices.

1. Use the non-human grade ingredients pre-made product (cheaper).
2. Use the human-grade ingredients pre-made product (more expensive).

3. Do it all yourself (cheapest)


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Yikes...didn't realize that. We got some of those chubs of food from a friend for the pups bday one year.

Now, my total newby question about this - because I don't use the food routinely...Doesn't that food have green tripe in it? Would that effect how it is processed and the requirements?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

All this info is great (of course), but 6 days is a crash course on raw. There are companies that serve up organic meat (much safer than regular plain ole "human grade" meat) in balanced raw diets. I think I'd like to see the OP pick up some Primal or Bravo or similar for the next week or two. Yeah, it's far more expensive. But none of us learned how to feed a balanced raw diet in a week. 

With a pup, I wouldn't want to try. 

JMO


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

We also fed a lot of premade raw food when we first started (about 1/2 of their meals). There used to be a semi-local place that ground up food for dogs. It made the transition much easier (at least in my mind).


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomAll this info is great (of course), but 6 days is a crash course on raw. There are companies that serve up organic meat (much safer than regular plain ole "human grade" meat) in balanced raw diets. I think I'd like to see the OP pick up some Primal or Bravo or similar for the next week or two. Yeah, it's far more expensive. But none of us learned how to feed a balanced raw diet in a week.
> 
> With a pup, I wouldn't want to try.
> 
> JMO











Took the words out of my mouth.....errrr off my finger tips


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Lauri's very comprehensive post #870407 above should give you all the info you need. The only thing I would add is to use the smaller versions of the raw meaty bones for pups, eg chicken wings cut into joints and smaller necks. Then, increase the size and hardness of the RMBs as the pup grows to an adult. Reserve the hardest (large animal weight bearing bones) for short term observed recreation use only, if at all.

You will not look back and your dog will love you for it!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Since the pup is already 15 weeks old and 40 pounds it should be able to handle any of the RMBs I listed.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I don't think it makes a difference if it contains green tripe or not.

It's the OTHER ingredients that should be 100% human grade.

Here is the quote from the AFS website:



> Quote: Free Range, freshly harvested Beef and/or Chicken (Free of Antibiotics, Hormones, and Steroids) exclusively procured from USDA Human Grade Meat Processing Plants


And here is a quote from the Bravo! website (one of the premades I use):



> Quote:Bravo! is made with all USDA inspected and *approved* meats in a USDA inspected facility that primarily cuts and processes meats for restaurant and institutional (schools, etc.) use. So, Bravo! is produced under all the same processing regulations that apply to human food products.


See the difference? While both companies get their ingredients from USDA approved facilities only The Bravo! ingredients are USDA APPROVED.

So, in reality, Bravo! could sell their mixes that do not have bone in them as a product for humans. It contains human grade ingredients and it processed in a USDA approved facility.

The only place that green tripe makes a difference is in the end product.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomThere are companies that serve up. . balanced raw diets. I think I'd like to see the OP pick up some Primal or Bravo or similar


Looking at primal's website they say 

"Primal Canine Formulas are developed specifically for canine consumption with the proper and safe ratios of calcium to phosphorous, protein to produce and vitamins and minerals to ensure that our diets can be fed as a nutritionally well balanced meal." 

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/canine/raw_frozen_formula.htm

I am curious what standards they use to ensure the meals are balanced. Either way it looks like they put effort into making sure it is in fact balanced and to me would be a good choice.

Bravo makes no such claims as to their product being balanced so I wouldn't suggest them. In fact they list a vitamin mineral supplement as required when feeding their food. But which supplement? All vit/min supplements supply different amounts of nutrients and making such a blanket statement as the one below concerns me.

"A high quality vitamin/mineral supplement:
Begin using after the first week of the transition and continue using on a daily basis. Be sure the product has trace minerals, not just vitamins. Use at 1.5 times the labeled dose."

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/supplements.html

With bravo your still simply playing a guessing game, just as you would be by feeding a variety of foods.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I wasn't necessarily endorsing one product or another for lifelong use. I just think it's necessary for the OP to learn what is best for their puppy. And that takes time to do research, buy some books, and build a balanced diet. 

For example, Castlemaid suggested feeding eggs and eggshell, which most of us do. But eggshell is pretty much unadulterated calcium. We need to be very careful about feeding too much calcium in the wrong ratios vis-a-vis phosphorous to puppies. Does the OP know this and understand this? 

Bone, of course, comes in the ideal ratio, and is safe for puppies, at least in its composition, as long as the pup consumes it safely. New BARF feeders are usually more worried about 1. Is raw meat safe to feed? That is, they're worried about pathogens 2. Is bone safe to feed? and 3. Amounts. They don't know that they should be worried about WHAT they feed, in terms of the most elemental nature of what they're feeding -- protein/fat/calcium/phosphorus/essential fatty acids and other nutrients. For a young pup, these are critical. 

What is the source of the Vitamin A in the B Naturals? If we're feeding liver (and eggs) and the Vitamin A is synthetic or liver-based, that's a concern to me. There is no fish (or O3's) recommended in Lauri's post above. 

I respect all of you. I've learned much from you. And I don't mean to disagree with you. 

But I stand by my initial post that a few days is a crash course, and we're talking about a young pup. It just makes me really uncomfortable that the OP is learning as they go when the pup is a little guy.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Ruth, we are just giving some basic stuff to help the OP get started. Basically, puppy will be home, and will need to be fed. Where/what to get? 

Nothing wrong with going to the grocery store and picking up a few things to hold over the OP until he/she gets a better grasp of what is needed for long-term maintenance. I'm sure common sense will prevail. Egg shells come out in chunks at the other end with my dogs, so calcium absorption is minimal. Feeding a whole raw egg occasionally is a far cry from saving all of one's egg shells, grinding them up, and adding it as a supplement (NOT reccomended!).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Heck, if puppies can grow up on Ol Roy then a couple weeks or even a month or two on a not-exactly-balanced raw diet isn't going to hurt them.









IMHO.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangSince the pup is already 15 weeks old and 40 pounds it should be able to handle any of the RMBs I listed.

















That part didn't sink in .... I was just picturing an 8wo presented with something they could not handle. My mistake, ..... thanks for picking that up.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks everybody. I appreciate it.









I talked to the breeder this week, and they gave me the brand he is currently eating and a feeding schedule. While I know puchasing the raw will be more costly, until I do my homework and understand how I can ensure the healthy balance to the pup, I feel most comfortable buying it prepared. Plus it's what he is used to already and I don't want to recreate the wheel on him as soon as he arrives. Have enough to get used to this weekend!

Thank you again for all the advice. I look forward to many more posts/discussions with you all as the pup grows up.


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