# Leerburg question



## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi!

Well, we've really been working on recall lately, but we hit a set back a few months ago when we went away for a few days and left Minnie with some friends. Although they were under strict orders NOT to place "chase me!" with her, they did, and now we have a heck of a time to get her to come, and also not to run away when we try to put her leash on. Anyway, I was doing some research on leerburg.com and I found the following in the q&a section. I am a bit confused by this, because it seems to me that the dog would associate the corrections with being caught, and try harder in the future to get away, rather than associate the corrections with running away. What do you think? 

Taken from:http://leerburg.com/qarecall.htm#notcome


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## victoria_warfel (Nov 29, 2007)

Yikes! I would NEVER advice a client to do this!

Instead, lavishly reward when your dog comes to you. Keep him on a long lead (or a long, light lead, like a clothesline with a snap). If he doesn't come to you, turn and run away from your dog, making funny noises to attract his attention.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

This is the exact opposite of what I have been taught!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Victoria & JediYikes! I would NEVER advice a client to do this!
> 
> Instead, lavishly reward when your dog comes to you. Keep him on a long lead (or a long, light lead, like a clothesline with a snap). If he doesn't come to you, turn and run away from your dog, making funny noises to attract his attention.


 That's a teaching recall stage. How do you proof it?


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## victoria_warfel (Nov 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07That's a teaching recall stage. How do you proof it?


It sounds like the OP needs to go back to the basics, and correcting the dog (ala Leerburg) won't help that. In addition to what I posted above, and to answer your question...

If you have to turn and run away, he needs more training. 

When he is coming to you every time, with the long lead on, take him to a safe location (fenced) and try it on lead. If successful, then try off lead. See how he responds. If he does it wonderfully (comes to you, gets reward, and released. Repeat.), yay! 

When you are comfortable with his reaction in the safe area, you can proceed to a partially fenced area, then a non-fenced area (watch for roads and cars). Baseball diamonds are great for this.

Good things always happen when your dog comes to you - released to play longer, the ball is thrown, a treat, a belly rub, etc.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Good things can also happen when your dog runs AWAY from you! LOL like squirrels, bunnies, deer, other dogs, people, etc etc.

At some point in training (like Oksana said after the teaching phase) you need to proof, which depending on the dog, requires corrections.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

It's not so much a matter of reward -- though that's good, but don't give the command (ie come, here - whatever) unless you can enforce it. That means having dog on long line or, if you use one, e-collar.

That is, until you again have a solid recall.

Every step backwards means retraining and, IMO, it's harder once they've learned that ignoring the command is a possibility.

Most will 'backslide' without practice.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

These are the basic steps that I take to train a recall (for a pet). 

Start close with a 6' leash and show the dog what "hier" means. It means to come over a sit in front of me. For a pet the fronts do not need to be perfect but they must front. The reason for this is that many dogs only know a recall to mean that they must come over to the handler's area, and when the handler tries to put a leash on, the dog tends to dance around to avoid being leashed.
I then put on a long line (15 or 33 feet). I let the dog get away from me then call "hier" and pop him back to me. 
I then put on an e-coller along with the long-line and do the same as before, except that I give him e-stim along with the leash pops. 
I then take the line off and only have the e-coller. At first I only allow him to get 33 feet away (remember, up to this point he has never been called from longer than a leash length away) before I call him. Then gradually increase the distance he is allowed to go away from you before being called. 
After this the dog will have a reliable recall. However, I do not see any reason to not always put the e-coller on. 
An important note. When the dog is in the front position this is when you praise and reward during all steps. Also, you must not try to recall the dog with out a way to enforce it.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I do not think that proofing requires corrections. 
I know many people who train a reliable recall without corrections. 
The key is to never raise the criteria too quickly above what the dog is ready for and to build an "automatic" response where the dog doesn't really think about it, they just come to you.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Unfortunately there is no treat in the world that is more interesting than a running squirrel. 









Just as a note, I'm not planning on doing this with my dog, I just wanted to see what you thought as it seemed to be contrary to everything else I've heard about the recall. 

Another question - if the dog has learned that she can ignore the "come" command, should we start all over and use a different word (like "here")?


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MinnieskiUnfortunately there is no treat in the world that is more interesting than a running squirrel.


So true, for dogs with higher prey drive. That's why I used the e-collar to proof recall with my boy. I don't think I could have trained a reliable recall without it.



> Originally Posted By: Minnieski Another question - if the dog has learned that she can ignore the "come" command, should we start all over and use a different word (like "here")?


If you go back and start at the basics with "come" and work your way up, you should be able to attain the same results, although some people do retrain with a new command so there is less confusion.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Yes, if your dog has been ignoring "come" I would choose a new word. It is more difficult to retrain once the dog has learned to ignore the word so it would be a lot easier to just pick a new word.



> Originally Posted By: MinnieskiUnfortunately there is no treat in the world that is more interesting than a running squirrel.


I know people who can call their high prey drive dogs off a squirrel, and they did not use any corrections in proofing or training. They just trained in such a way that their dog THINKS they are more interesting than the squirrel (or, the dog is trained to the point where he does not weigh the options, he just comes.) This involves building up the distractions and calling the dog when you are 99.9% sure they will come when called, so that you are setting the dog up for success. 

If you use use corrections for the recall such as: you call the dog, the dog does not respond, the dog is corrected- you are associating the command with the correction. With the recall you want your dog (or at least I want my dog) to have only positive associations with the word "come" and to immediately respond to the word without hesitation, which can come if the dog has connected the command with being corrected.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine If you use use corrections for the recall such as: you call the dog, the dog does not respond, the dog is corrected- you are associating the command with the correction.


 If timed properly than the dog associates the correction with not obeying the command. 

I have seen first hand 99.9% recall reliable 8 year old dog been kicked by a horse because the dog ran towards the horse and underneath. The owner called the dog, then acted interesting, and ran in the opposite direction, and it didn't work even though it worked before. My correction proofed Yana came back after the first time I said 'come', and sat next to me quietly because I asked her to finish, and the pure positively trained dog rolled in the ditch. Oh, and I could and did call Yana off the jack rabit chase and coyotees (she managed to touch noses with one before I realized what was going on).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> I have seen first hand 99.9% recall reliable 8 year old dog been kicked by a horse because the dog ran towards the horse and underneath.


Actually when I said that 99% I was talking about what is done during training-- calling the dog when you are 99% sure they will respond.


However that 99% still applies to any recall with a fully trained dog as well. No dog is 100% reliable, no matter if they were trained with prong, e-collar, treats, drive, or anything else. Unless they are a robot, in which case they are still not 100% reliable because power sources can fail.

ETA: If the dog you mentioned required the owner to look interesting and run away in order to get the dog to respond, that dog is not really trained, so I would not call that a "99.9% recall."


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Also just wanted to add this link I recently was sent about recall training, seems like a good article:

Part One, Foundation:
Recall Training 

Part Two, Distractions:
Recall Training Pt 2 


Also wanted to add that if your dog finds squirrels to be the most interesting thing, you can use the Premack principle-- when the dog responds and comes when called, you give the dog ok to chase the squirrel as a reward-- thus reinforcing their training and their interest/enthusiasm in responding to the recall command. 

Here are a few videos showing the use of the Premack principle in dog training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck7wmjrG6OY 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MAs4PPw7Kc 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doJLym4XSHU


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for the resources! I like the Premack principle! We already have sort of been doing that with fetch (integrating commands before she can go get it), but I think it will work great as an additional training tool for us (she's not really that excited about food).


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine Also wanted to add that if your dog finds squirrels to be the most interesting thing, you can use the Premack principle-- when the dog responds and comes when called, you give the dog ok to chase the squirrel as a reward-- thus reinforcing their training and their interest/enthusiasm in responding to the recall command.
> 
> Here are a few videos showing the use of the Premack principle in dog training:
> 
> ...


Hmmm...this is very interesting. I'd never heard of it before, kind of wish I had when I was training off-leash recall, as I would've tried it before the e-collar.

However, from those 3 videos, I would argue that the Premack principle would not work with a high prey drive dog off-leash and squirrels. When a dog is chasing a squirrel, as soon as the dog starts chasing, the squirrel goes up the nearest tree. It doesn't sit around and wait for your dog to recall to you, and then start running again once you've finished the recall exercise. Same with any prey type animal - rabbits, deer, etc. I don't know if it's possible to teach a dog that if he sees a squirrel, he has to come when you call him, and then he can go chase the squirrel, cause you can bet that squirrel's gonna be long gone by the time he returns. Even if you taught him with lure coursing, or a ball, or something you could control at first, and then when you were confident that he was reliable with those, let him off-leash with actual prey moseying around. I think a dog would figure out pretty quickly that he only has one chance to get that squirrel/rabbit/whatever.

I didn't have the sound on when I was playing those videos since I'm at work, so if that would change any of my arguments that follow, my apologies.

In the first video with the chihuahua, I noticed that the dog chased the birds until the birds took flight, and THEN recalled back to the owner. To me, this is the equivalent of recalling your dog once the squirrel has reached the tree. I would be more impressed if the dog was recalled BEFORE the birds took flight, when there was still a reasonable chance of catching one of the birds (from the dog's point of view). I can honestly say that having proofed recall with an e-collar, I can recall my dog BEFORE those birds take flight, BEFORE that squirrel even gets close to the tree, and BEFORE the bunny reaches its tunnel in the bushes.

In the second and third video, the dog is being trained with something that the handler controls - the second being a lure in lure coursing, and the third being a ball or frisbee. Because the handler controls when the "prey" stops and goes, the dog learns that it's okay to come back cause the "prey" will still be there when he goes after it again. But in a real life situation, off-leash, I still think the dog would learn that waiting and recalling does not result in the joy of the chase. For this reason, I don't think it would result in a recall as reliable as that trained with an e-collar.

I think almost any kind of training requires corrections, recall is no exception. A correctly used e-collar is not intended to hurt the dog, it is merely a tap on the shoulder. I don't think it's any better or worse than training with a long line and flat collar or prong collar, and giving the dog a pop and reeling him back in.

Regardless, training is about finding what works for your dog, we can discuss what the best method is all day and night, but ultimately whatever method produces results you want is the best. 

Thanks for posting about the Premack principle and those videos, it's something new to consider for my next dog. And actually very similar to advice given to me when I first started training recall - that your dog's motivation for coming back when you call him is the knowledge that he can come back, but the party doesn't stop just cause he's returned, it keeps going AND he gets rewarded for coming back.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I could be wrong but I do believe that many "trainers" who insist on using only hotdogs and hugs will change their minds after their dogs give them a good scare. For me, personally, this happened many years ago when my dog ran onto thin ice and would not recall. Thankfully, he eventually did and did not fall through. But this event was enough for me to realize that I needed to be 110% certain that when I called my dog, he would, without doubt, come. I may be wrong, but I do not believe this can be accomplished reliably without some sort of adversive. 
You are, of course, free to decide how to train your dog. However, I ask that you consider this. If your dog is chasing a deer into oncoming traffic what would you prefer to have in your hand a hotdog or an e-coller transmitter? 

Regarding the Premack principle videos. This is not new stuff, it has been around a long time. It is no different than using "obedience for bites" in schutzhund, but, to me, it is one thing to depend on it in a schutzhund trial and quite another to depend on it to save my dog's life in the real world.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Quoting Chicagocanine:

"If you use use corrections for the recall such as: you call the dog, the dog does not respond, the dog is corrected- you are associating the command with the correction. With the recall you want your dog (or at least I want my dog) to have only positive associations with the word "come" and to immediately respond to the word without hesitation, which can come if the dog has connected the command with being corrected."

I disagree with this. I believe that using some form of compulsion will result in a faster recall not hesitation. Additionally, when I train a recall for a pet, the command "come" does NOT have a purely positive association. In fact when I say "come" I want the dog to think that it is very dangerous to be anywhere EXCEPT in front of me. 
To me the biggest problem with purely positive methods is that it gives the dog a choice. To me this is wrong. A dog must know that when a command is given there is absolutely no choice except to respond properly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have to agree with this. Jax was great for chasing cats in our yard, birds, squirrels, leaves, basically anything that moved fast enough. We live close enough to the road that I had a choice. 

I could hope she would come for a hug and a treat (which wasn't working), hope she didn't get hit by a car while we worked on the hug and a treat, or reinforce the NO when she didn't come back immediately with an e-collar. I think the tiny shock of the collar hurts a whole lot less than 2500 lbs of metal.

However, I think rewarding the recall with alot of positive reinforcement so that your dog knows you are the safest place to be is vital to the end.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

My first reaction was that the instructions that Leerburg gave were backward, but if you think about it, he is saying to correct from the spot that the dog chose not to recall up to the spot where the handler was originally standing. Not call the dog to you then correct him. I would assume the dog would associate the correction with the place he made the bad decision.

However, that said, I think that how you train the recall really depends on the dog. Bison was by far the easiest of my dogs for me to train because he WANTS to be with us. The positive Hot Dogs and Hugs (I thought that was funny.







)worked very well for him. 

Just had a scary moment yesterday…

We live on a quiet street in the burbs, I don’t usually use a leash to get Bison to and from the car because it is only 5 yards from door to car and Bison just goes where I tell him very reliably. Yesterday, we got home from SchH club and I let Bison out of the truck and was gathering up some “stuff” when I heard a noise behind me. I turned around and Bison was at the neighbor’s house. They had a mini poodle with them (doesn’t normally live there), also off leash, and Bison had run over to say, “HI”. They, are new to the neighborhood within the last year and don’t know Bison. They were obviously freaked out to see this 90 lb GSD running full speed at their little pookie. I called him and he came immediately without hesitation. I apologized for not seeing them, and luckily they waved it off.

If his recall wasn’t this good, I would have no qualms with in the least to use corrections. But, I would try an e-collar before I would do what Leerburg suggested.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieMy first reaction was that the instructions that Leerburg gave were backward, but if you think about it, he is saying to correct from the spot that the dog chose not to recall up to the spot where the handler was originally standing. Not call the dog to you then correct him. I would assume the dog would associate the correction with the place he made the bad decision.


That is what I did. I corrected Jax with an e-collar at the spot she ignored me. The minute she turned to come to me I switched to positive with encouragement while she was coming to me. I want her to know I'm the safest place for her...not that I'm the least dangerous.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I know I'm late to this, but the leerburg advice is absolutely correct except for the extreme level of correction mentioned and is to be used only for dogs that understand what come means. I will most certainly go and get a dog that doesn't come when called - and he knows what it means - without giving any other commands, put a leash on him, if he doesn't have one on, and give him several collar corrections from the spot he was in when I called back to where I was. After that, I would repeat the recall and either recorrect if necessary or praise like crazy for doing it right.

There has to be consequences to not coming and praise for doing it right for there to be a reliable recall.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Try the other methods suggested here, except the one from Leerburg, that's counter to just about every tenet of good dog training. When they don't give satisfactory results in a reasonable time frame (only you can decide what that is) try this method 

I've never had it fail to give good results.


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

After failing with many "soft" methods Lou Castle Method created a really Solid recall with my girl.
I can Vouch for it.


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