# assessing without titles???



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

this question has nothing to do with health, i would like to know people's opinions on gathering information on a dog's temprement without formal titles. i mean really know what the dog is about in the head without training for two years for a specific title. i have never used the volhard test on a puppy cos i heard it is....dubious, is there an extension on this type of thing for young dogs that are neither puppy or mature?

any ideas.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The MH test has been discussed here a few times. Not too sure how it would work on a puppy, but I think it gives you a good idea of what's going on inside a dogs head and the reactions you'll get from different scenarios.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVx_XEZGjR4&feature=youtu.be






Here's an old thread discussing it.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...annes-belgian-breeder-spit-some-thoughts.html


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

hey thank you, thats what i was looking for. 

haven't read all 11 pages of the thread you linked and have not found the discussion on the testing yet, just a lot of gushing about peds.

does this test have a score or any documentation that goes with it??

thanks again, exactly type of thing i was looking for.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

found an explanation for those interested;

Mount Brier American Staffordshire Terriers

would anyone rate this over a BH??? better on another thread perhaps?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I think it starts around page 4 or 5 of that thread. It's been a while since I've read it. Carmen had a lot of input on the topic.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think you can rate a dog based on the training you have done. But that will only prove the dog to you and it will be very difficult to convince others that your dog is as good as a dog with formal titles. I think there are a lot of dogs that their owners/trainers know have "it" but that dog is only quality in the eyes of that trainer and anyone they can convince of it. So possibly the Schutzhund club or the training facility that person belongs to and the people there have seen the dog train/work.

So I think that your market for puppies will be extremely limited, but not super small to the point of no one being interested.

At the same time...consider the fact that the majority of American bred dogs do not have any working titles on them, and many times, females don't have a conformation championship either.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It is also experience. 

My Dad used to drive hours to assess dogs for Clients. Sometimes he walked into a kennel and said "Thanks but no thanks" and walked straight back out, based on how the dog acted in the kennel. 

Some people said "Don't you want to see the dog on the field?" and my Dad would say "No, I've seen enough."

I've seen quite a few Shepherds over the last weeks, if they are not even confident in their own home, that says a lot about their temperament.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> ...
> 
> I've seen quite a few Shepherds over the last weeks, if they are not even confident in their own home, that says a lot about their temperament.


A friend met a big name DDR Sch3 dog at the dog's home. Dog acted terrified, slinking around the house, very uncomfortable with a visitor I was told.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gagsd said:


> A friend met a big name DDR Sch3 dog at the dog's home. Dog acted terrified, slinking around the house, very uncomfortable with a visitor I was told.


Honestly, and I cannot believe I am saying that. Cases like that is why a title does not proof everything because a dog can be made. A title does not make dog breedworthy...

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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Echo had hereditary shyness as did his sire (I don't know about earlier generations). He was neutered and after spending hundreds of hours training him he over came his problems and acted like a "normal" dog. Fortunately his breeder removed the sire from their breeding program after it was obvious there was a problem. 

So IMHO it's possible to have a real ditz with a serious genetic mental problem who can act and appear "normal" to the outside world.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I don't want to minimize the importance of training (and titling). But like anything else it is only a part of the picture.

I personally, at this point in my dog-career, do not think there is any one test that can be as effective as living with and training a dog. A dog may appear good, but the cracks appear with training and exposure.

I do, though, think a non-breedworthy dog can be weeded out in a matter of minutes by an experienced eye.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gagsd said:


> I do, though, think a non-breedworthy dog can be weeded out in a matter of minutes by an experienced eye.


THIS!!!




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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

gagsd said:


> I don't want to minimize the importance of training (and titling). But like anything else it is only a part of the picture.
> 
> I personally, at this point in my dog-career, do not think there is any one test that can be as effective as living with and training a dog. A dog may appear good, but the cracks appear with training and exposure.
> 
> I do, though, think a non-breedworthy dog can be weeded out in a matter of minutes by an experienced eye.




Absolutely! 

But given the scarity of training & clubs available in this county....I am slowing believing that there are dogs who ARE breedworthy who are not titled....but to discover these dogs is difficult...every owner you meet says - oh, my dog could get a title....

_*UNLESS THE OWNER/HANDLER HAS TITLED MULTIPLE DOGS, IS OBJECTIVE, AND KNOWS (AS IN HAS OWNED/TITLED/BRED) THE FAMILY OF THE DOG UNDER DISCUSSION, HE REALLY CANNOT JUDGE THE BREEDWORTHINESS OF THE UNTITLED DOG*_

As others have said, there are many many titled dogs who are just made by time, effort and sheer determination on the part of the owner...the key is having the objectivity, the experience and the instinct to weed out the made from the able.

I had a dog once I truly loved - she did not have the confidence naturally at 5 months to engage a helper....could I have worked that through and titled her? Sure - have seen worse dogs titled over and over....but IMO a dog who is not naturally confident is not a breeding candidate...titled or not...the dogs who are worked, and trained and whose owners pour blood, sweat and tears into titling a dog like this because they love the dog are not doing themselves or the breed any favor when they breed them because they have gotten that title! Those dogs can live great lives and probably happier ones when taken out of the gene pool.....

The bottom line is not the title, but the knowledge and integrity of the person doing the breeding.

Lee


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Here I am in a thread where I don't belong again! 

But I like the last three posts on this page. For someone like me, who until I have a few more years of knowledge, if I have trust in a breeder--someone who IS experienced and knowledgeable, who I feel extremely comfortable with that they have that eye and objectivity, I would trust their word and their integrity over titles I think.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> But given the scarity of training & clubs available in this county....I am slowing believing that there are dogs who ARE breedworthy who are not titled....but to discover these dogs is difficult...every owner you meet says - oh, my dog could get a title....
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with you on this. A title does not make a dog breedworthy. I have one female who was at several different clubs and everyone was impressed with her. I KNOW she is breedworthy but with how things are and all the limited resources out here she may never be titled. A female like her would contribute greatly to the gene pool and it is a waste not to use her. I know that.. so to breed or not to breed without that precious title? 

I have also one dog that isnt breedworthy and that dog will get fixed. Cant believe again that I am the one fixing a dog for a reason like that but things are different in this country...

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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

are there any documentation about GSDs average scores on the MH test?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The last sentence of Lee's post says it all!...IMO!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

People with knowledge and experience can judge without a test, but you only gain that knowledge and experience by training and titling dogs. Learning to read body language. Learning the difference between high energy and high drive. It's not something that can be taught from a book or the internet.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do not necessarily need titles but I do need to see the breeder or seller demonstrate that they have done the work/sport I'm interested in and thus can give me or sell me the dog I'm looking for. I don't need a Schutzhund title to prove a dog might produce a good SchH dog but I need evidence that the owner is actually doing that training and can demonstrate what they mean. When I wanted a GSD for agility, I got a GSD that had been bred and trained by someone who did agility and before I left with the dog we met with a good instructor so I could see that the dog was in fact good at agility. The dog was not titled but absolutely loved agility and was easy to start titling. When I wanted a house pet that was good with other dogs, I found a rescue dog that had been fostered for an extended period by someone who kept their dogs in the house and had multiple dogs and thus could speak to the fact that the dog I was adopting was good as a house pet and enjoyed the company of other dogs. When I wanted a dog that could do well in Schutzhund I found a breeder that has trained and titled many dogs in SchH including at least one of the parents in the breeding pair. In none of these cases I was looking at the actual titles or scores of the dogs I was interested in (or the sire/dam being bred) but the owner, foster, and breeder could clearly demonstrate that they knew what they were talking about and were selling me what I wanted.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i think i would be more inclined to purchase from a breeder who is actively involved in titling the dogs they produce but as far as an individual owner is concerned titling is nothing more than personal choice.

titling as an end in itself is lame imo, look at that ohio scumbag, people were sending there dogs to him to title and they did not care enough about their well bred dogs to even visit for months while there dogs were being starved, sold, killed, abused.......the first time some of these people knew about it was when the poilice identified their dog and returned it to them after a raid.

shows the type of extreme psychopathic behaviour that can be a consequence of an obsession with titles because that is what people think they need to get to have a licence to make money or whatever.

note i did say extreme psychotic behaviour which does NOT apply to the vast majority of normal people.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sadly that is what it has become for a lot of people, the title is just a means to a breed survey so they can say they breed the "German way" and advertise that their dogs have titles and all that jazz. I've seen more than a handful of dogs return from trainers after only a few months with SG and V Schutzhund scores in their books but they cannot do the offleash lap of a silly show without someone holding a ball or grabbing the collar, don't recognize a tracking article if it slaps them in the face, and often will not hold and bark in the blind or engage at all (and the saddest part for me is that many of these dogs ARE good dogs, and this joke of "training" and titling is disrespectful to the breed and to that individual dog who deserves to really be trained). It makes it frustrating for people that actually care and put in the time and effort. Sure my dog might be only a G or SG score dog but last I checked G meant Good and we earned every point in the scorebook with years of training and hardwork together. I won't say my titles are not important to me, but they are important because they represent all the hard work that went into each one and what I have learned about my dogs and dogs in general during that process. If anyone wants to assess my training or my dog I prefer they come visit our club or watch the dog during an event and not just look at a scorebook.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> The last sentence of Lee's post says it all!...IMO!


"The bottom line is not the title, but the knowledge and integrity of the person doing the breeding."
I agree, and the really good breeders are their own worst critic. Those are the ones you want to get a puppy from!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

x11 said:


> i think i would be more inclined to purchase from a breeder who is actively involved in titling the dogs they produce but as far as an individual owner is concerned titling is nothing more than personal choice.
> 
> titling as an end in itself is lame imo, look at that ohio scumbag, people were sending there dogs to him to title and they did not care enough about their well bred dogs to even visit for months while there dogs were being starved, sold, killed, abused.......the first time some of these people knew about it was when the poilice identified their dog and returned it to them after a raid.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It boils down to how the titles are earned and what the dog has in its heart...a scorebook doesn't give that information.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> "The bottom line is not the title, but the knowledge and integrity of the person doing the breeding."
> I agree, and the really good breeders are their own worst critic. Those are the ones you want to get a puppy from!


Yup. 

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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

nitemares said:


> are there any documentation about GSDs average scores on the MH test?


Yes, you can see in a diagram how a certain dog or his/her offpspring compares to all tested GSDs(the breed average in the test).


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