# Is paper training in x-pen interfering with overall housebreaking?



## Guest (Dec 9, 2013)

Hello everyone,
I just brought home my 8 week old female GSD puppy four days ago. She is great and really making daily progress on training and being in her crate and so forth. The only problem we are having is potty training. 
For a little background, I have had several puppies before, and they were all more or less potty trained within a week or less. My other GSD puppy would stand at the door and alert me by 9 weeks old. 
My breeder had a setup where the pups and dam were in a divided enclosure where on one side they had a crate, and the other side a bunch of wood shavings that was their toilet area. I have a similar setup-an exercise pen in my garage with a bed on one side, and a puppy pad with wood shavings on the other side. 
I also am crate training her and she does not soil her crate. If we are at work, she goes in the x-pen, if we are home we are either supervising her + taking her outside frequently with treats and praise, or she is in her crate if we are too busy to have an eye on her. Also if we are only going to be gone for an hour or two she is crated. 
So back to the problem- she has had about 2-3 accidents per day all around the house and doesn’t seem to be catching on to the outside thing at all. We are always watching her like a hawk, and sometimes we get her outside on time, but other times she gives no warning at all and just squats and pees or poops without sniffing around or anything. She does it so fast we don’t have time to react besides saying “NO!!” and then picking her up and taking her outside. The “NO!” doesn’t interrupt her like it did my other pups, she just keeps going, even if you pick her up (learned that the hard way, gross). A couple of times, I have taken her outside after a meal and she has gone to the bathroom, and then we come inside and she does it again right on the floor. 
She poops right on the wood shavings in her x-pen, and also did so with the breeder. 
What I am wondering, is if the pooping area in her long term confinement area is interfering with her overall housebreaking? I have read that paper training just makes dogs go everywhere as they do not distinguish between pads vs. carpet or tiles, etc. Is this what is going on here? Is it possible to have a puppy that understands to go outside the majority of the time, unless they are confined?
I would love to hear your experiences and recommendations. 
Thanks!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with you, the pup could be confused. She does know to go potty on the wood shavings. Taking some of the wood shavings outside may help her to get the idea. Also if you are not already doing so, a strict schedule where she is taken out at regular times will help. I do think the 2 methods are confusing her and I suggest you decide on one or the other.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

training any dog to pee/poop inside the house is a bad idea


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Hello GUEST! (Sansa's mom)
Can you explain how you posted please? Without registering?
There's no way for us to private message you....

Thanks. 
Kat


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I will be the odd man out...... Paper training has been around a lot longer than crates and puppy pads.
I have never had a problem using both paper, and go-outside.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

And some dogs just learn faster.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

It should take a week or two to potty train a 8 week old. - I suggest no paper training, if you do that itll take alot longer and youll have accidents.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

volcano said:


> It should take a week or two to potty train a 8 week old. - I suggest no paper training, if you do that itll take alot longer and youll have accidents.


Takes me much longer than that to have housebreaking 100%... 

If you 'allow' them to go in the house, then you are just making the housebreaking take longer cause you are teaching them something is a-ok fine this month... then NEXT month the exact same behavior (peeing inside the x-pen) is NOT allowed. Training is confusing enough without us adding to it on purpose.

Just crate train OR use baby gates and doors to keep the pup confined in an area YOU are in and can pay attention. Take the pup outside every hour or so. Puppy party when they are good outdoors, vigilance to teach when they are loose in the room with you, otherwise just use the crate.

Good luck!


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the advice.It seems like the general consensus is that I am confusing her by using both methods. So for those of you that work full time and use a long term confinement area such as the kitchen, an x-pen, etc, while you are at work, what do you do during the work week? On a typical day, she is in there for about 6-7 hours at a stretch, I put her in at 8am when I leave for work, and my kids get home at 2-3 and let her out. I can sometimes come home for lunch to let her outside, my husband as well, but the timing is unpredictable, both of us can get stuck in meetings or things like that. 

I can't crate her for 6-7 hours (at least, not until she is older), and I know that she will pee/poop on the floor in her x-pen without a doggy toilet, which would make the housebreaking thing even worse. 

@ gagsd, you said you have been successful using both. How did you do it?


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Mary Beth said:


> I agree with you, the pup could be confused. She does know to go potty on the wood shavings. Taking some of the wood shavings outside may help her to get the idea. Also if you are not already doing so, a strict schedule where she is taken out at regular times will help. I do think the 2 methods are confusing her and I suggest you decide on one or the other.


I was actually just saying that yesterday to my husband, that maybe I should put some wood shavings out in the yard for her. I plan on doing that to help her get the message.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I try really hard to not leave a puppy (crated) for longer than they can easily hold it. But everyone's schedules are different.
In the past, I have left a safe area (like an x-pen) with paper in the back part and toys etc in the front area.
When home, I keep a paper area by the door..... not that the puppy <should> go on it, but if I miss those signals, I have found the pups will head to the door, and rather than having an accident somewhere else, they use the paper. 
The goal being to throw away unused paper each day.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

bump for an update...

I have done away with the x-pen so that she doesn't get confused with paper training, and have just been crating her while at work. She has really come to love her crate and often crates herself if she is tired or if the kitten is bothering her. Every time I take her out of the crate, I carry her outside with a treat, and she now goes to the bathroom on command in the yard. I stay outside with her for 10-15 min each time and make her go a couple of times to make sure she is empty before I bring her in, but...
she still keeps going in the house! She still gives no warning, we'll be playing or something and she'll just squat and pee where she stands. She seems to regard everything outside of her crate as fair game to be peed on. She knows that she gets a reward for going outside, a couple of times she has even "faked it" by squatting down for a couple seconds pretending to pee, and then coming to me like "where's my treat?". What is the deal? I wouldn't sweat it if she was progressing gradually, but nothing has changed at all. Have any of your dogs done this before, and what did you do about it?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I set up my pup in the puppy proofed kitchen and have always put down wee pads or paper and never had a problem. I would much rather have a pup go on paper than on the bare floor and track it all over. It never took long for pup to end up not using the paper at all which always make my husband very happy since he is the first one home.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

The Evans Guide to Housetraining your Dog by Job Michael Evans - you may find the book helpful. It discusses situations like you have. My Sting was easy to train but I did keep him on a leash attached to me when he was inside, mainly because of the cat, but it did help as I was right there to observe the signs . I think also, and this is discussed in the book, is that the pup needs to know that it is wrong to potty inside. A sharp "no" pick her up and take her outside - praise her when she potties. I didn't use treats at all for potty training - but only praise. The book also discusses this. I hope it is still in print, or you can get one from your library or interlibrary loan. The author was one of the Monks of New Skete and was one of the authors for the first edition of "How to be Your Dog's Best Friend." I also think you may want to be sure your children are all on board with the training program since you mentioned before that they get home earlier and let her out.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Mary Beth said:


> The Evans Guide to Housetraining your Dog by Job Michael Evans - you may find the book helpful. It discusses situations like you have. My Sting was easy to train but I did keep him on a leash attached to me when he was inside, mainly because of the cat, but it did help as I was right there to observe the signs . I think also, and this is discussed in the book, is that the pup needs to know that it is wrong to potty inside. A sharp "no" pick her up and take her outside - praise her when she potties. I didn't use treats at all for potty training - but only praise. The book also discusses this. I hope it is still in print, or you can get one from your library or interlibrary loan. The author was one of the Monks of New Skete and was one of the authors for the first edition of "How to be Your Dog's Best Friend." I also think you may want to be sure your children are all on board with the training program since you mentioned before that they get home earlier and let her out.


Thanks for the advice, but I am already doing all of that, which is why i'm stumped. This is my 5th puppy and 2nd gsd puppy. At home she is either crated or tethered to me, she'll be one foot away from me and pee without warning. She gets taken out every 30 min or so, plus after play, meals, and sleep. I go out with her and give praise and treats. When I catch her in the act I give a loud NO and clap my hands loudly before scooping her up and taking her out. She actually continues peeing even if I scared her, and peed on me once while I picked her up mid-pee. So yeah, i'm at a loss of why she isn't progressing at all. 
If anyone else has had this experience please share what you did. Oh also, my kids are on board. My older son is 12 and he keeps her tethered to his belt and takes her out frequently with our "pee" command. 

Basically, she understands not to go in crate, and understands to go once outside, but wont alert us in any way if she has to go inside.


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## TAR HEEL MOM (Mar 22, 2013)

What do you clean the soiled spot with? If you are not completely removing the smell (just because you can't smell it, doesn't mean she can't) then they will continue to go there time and again. Honestly, I have found that this is the biggest mistake most people make in housetraining. You need to buy an enzymatic product like "Nature's Miracle" (there are several brands on the market) and clean up as directed. Even on seemingly impervious (tile, etc) floors. I give this same advice to every new adopter when they take a puppy home 

Good luck!!


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

I do clean it with an enzyme cleaner, not natures miracle but another brand (who knows if it's actually working) also I have the enzyme carpet powder for vacuuming. Maybe I need to start doing the bells on the door thing so she will learn to alert me. I've been thinking about it and she is crate trained, knows what to do once outside, but the missing link is her not alerting me. I was reluctant to do it bc i think my cat will ring them all day. 

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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I wonder if it all started back at the breeders with the area of wood shavings that she used for a potty which is why I recommended the book because that will sometimes happen with puppies purchased from a pet store which is discussed in the book. It seems to me that she got the idea to keep her area clean, but as you said anything else was okay to pee on and never really learned to hold it. It is one thing to hold it in the crate because she isn't moving -it is the movement that triggers it. I suggest you move the crate closer to the door - have her walk outside - don't carry her. As she gets better - move the crate further away. That way she will learn to hold it inside while walking. To teach her to hold it longer try to take her out for a good walk and playtime - then when you come inside for just a short time - walk her around tethered to you or brush her or play with her- offer water - and put her inside her crate for 45 minutes. Again after that time - let her out of the crate and have her walk to the door. Gradually increase the amount of time. I also wonder if going back to Mary's post - the paper training or in your pup's case, the wood shave training would be better, providing she has access. If she had access - say there were wood shavings on a peed pad by the door or in the x-pen with the door open was left by the door - if she would go in there and not pee on the floor.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Mary Beth said:


> I wonder if it all started back at the breeders with the area of wood shavings that she used for a potty which is why I recommended the book because that will sometimes happen with puppies purchased from a pet store which is discussed in the book. It seems to me that she got the idea to keep her area clean, but as you said anything else was okay to pee on and never really learned to hold it. It is one thing to hold it in the crate because she isn't moving -it is the movement that triggers it. I suggest you move the crate closer to the door - have her walk outside - don't carry her. As she gets better - move the crate further away. That way she will learn to hold it inside while walking. To teach her to hold it longer try to take her out for a good walk and playtime - then when you come inside for just a short time - walk her around tethered to you or brush her or play with her- offer water - and put her inside her crate for 45 minutes. Again after that time - let her out of the crate and have her walk to the door. Gradually increase the amount of time. I also wonder if going back to Mary's post - the paper training or in your pup's case, the wood shave training would be better, providing she has access. If she had access - say there were wood shavings on a peed pad by the door or in the x-pen with the door open was left by the door - if she would go in there and not pee on the floor.


I will look into the Evans book and see what they say about housebreaking pet-store puppies. For moving her crate closer, I think I can do that some of the time-I have a two story house and all of the bedrooms are upstairs, so it would be difficult to move it towards the door for her morning pee. But when we are downstairs in the family room I am able to make her walk out by herself (on a leash, usually) so I can try doing that during the times we are downstairs. I don't want to re-incorporate the wood shavings just yet because ultimately I want to break her away from that completely.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Try monitoring her water intake. Control it if necessary and watch to see how long it takes for her to eliminate after drinking.

She may be emptying the bowl at one sitting while you aren't looking.

As another poster mentioned, some puppies take longer for it to 'click'.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> Try monitoring her water intake. Control it if necessary and watch to see how long it takes for her to eliminate after drinking.
> 
> She may be emptying the bowl at one sitting while you aren't looking.
> 
> As another poster mentioned, some puppies take longer for it to 'click'.


This actually may be one of her issues, my husband keeps moving her water bowl into her crate. I think that the ability to drink at will is making her pee schedule sporadic. 

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