# Is this a good representation of the breed IYM?



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There seem to be many different "styles" of GSD. Given that, does this dog in your opinion have faults or is it very close to what the breed standard was intended to look like?

It is only a picture so conformation is the only thing we can comment on. I have found very few pictures of GSD's that look this way. Is this a good example of what breeders are trying to achieve in their breeding programs? Could a GSD that looks like this also be capable of doing the tasks required of a "working line GSD"?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm not a conformation expert....or even a rookie....but the dog certainly looks nice enough...is that one of them thar Chinese panda shepherds??

And what does IYM mean?


SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Ha! you caught me! I was thinking in your mind but I should have put IYO. Sorry

Not a panda, just a black and tan. It's won a few shows. The question is more complicated than it looks. The GSD breed just seems to have so many different styles and so many specialties that few other breeds are expected to meet. Is this adding or detracting from the breed standard? Is it just about the money and giving the people what they want? Will we have purple GSD's able to do backflips in the future?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's an American Show Line.

Can it work? All depends on the temperament and drives. Nothing to do with conformation.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Once again...no expert on the subject...but that black and tan...sure has a lot of white on it...maybe it's just the picture....but the dog's appearance is pretty unique looking for a black and tan.....great looker for sure...IMHO

SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Am lines are not dark tan like the WGSL's...they are more cream/not tan. I seldom see the red hue either, in the American showline.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I wonder if there have recently been any GSDs that are able to win multiple best in shows and also earn top placement multiple times in working dog trials?

The "types" seem to be getting so far apart in build and temperament. What would the founder of the breed say?

Well Max - here's what we got so far; long coat, short coat, medium drive, high drive, sloping back, straight back, white, black, sable black & tan, red & tan, blanket, panda. oversize, mini, good for show, good for agility, good for schutzhund, good for family pet, good for herding.

Maybe that's why Max wanted someone to "take this trouble from me" lol he may have foreseen the separation coming.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Once again...no expert on the subject...but that black and tan...sure has a lot of white on it...maybe it's just the picture....but the dog's appearance is pretty unique looking for a black and tan.....great looker for sure...IMHO
> 
> SuperG


It looks like it could also be that the tan is getting washed out by the lighting, either in the original photo, or in this photo of a photo... just don't take a photo of the photo of a photo, we might all fall into limbo, unless you like that party game...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Your right - it is a photo of a photo and I think someone's flash made the cream go white in the photo (not the photo of the photo you understand).

Anyway, this dog won over 275 best in show all breeds and many more specialty groups. It is considered one of the best of all time. The article was about judges having difficulty these days because they are presented with many different "styles" of GSD's today. 

Dang, my gsd looks like a hillbilly first cousin breeding compared to that one.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

No way to tell from a photo if a dog can work. 

But I know a few ASL dogs that have achieved herding titles and obedience titles. Have never seen one do IPO though. So I guess it depends on what you consider "working" title.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ApselBear said:


> It looks like it could also be that the tan is getting washed out by the lighting, either in the original photo, or in this photo of a photo... just don't take a photo of the photo of a photo, we might all fall into limbo, unless you like that party game...


Copy that !!

SuperG


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That's Altana's Mystique. Beautiful moving bitch with a very sound and solid temperament. No, she was not a working dog and her structure, while not extreme, was developed for an extended and flashy side gait and not the agility needed for a working dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And, while she has lighter points, that photo is making her look far far more washed out than she was in real life.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks! Lisa

That answers my question. You can't have both in one dog because of the bodies are different.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Ihczth knows her stuff about the conformation dogs....

I thought it was a photo of a photo which was previously photographed and then copied producing a photo of a Panda Shepherd.....I'm outta my league.


SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Well thanks for trying SuperG. Now you got me confused. lol

Actually, the question was based on body type, not the color of the dog. That's why I didn't worry about the overexposure on the picture, we were looking more at the structure.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Hence I refer back to my first post....great looker for sure...IMHO

Also...a working dog and conformation in the same package ??? I'd wager you will get one or the other...as far as excellence goes....but in rarer cases one might get both....


SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Stonevintage said:


> Well thanks for trying SuperG. Now you got me confused. lol
> 
> Actually, the question was based on body type, not the color of the dog. That's why I didn't worry about the overexposure on the picture, we were looking more at the structure.


What would you expect from this type? Agility, herding, IPO? The dog doesn't have that type of structure, IMO...but can probably do a nice flying trot around a ring once or maybe twice.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The photo seemed to show a lot less angulation on this dog than most of the other show dogs I have seen, yet - she is considered to be one of the top show dogs of all time. 

So, my question was, would the decreased angulation increase the agility of the dog. Could a GSD dog be bred that would allow it to be in top competition in show as well as agility (this would of course require the top agility dog to have to change structure to be just a little more like this dog's structure. 

I thought originally that size and/or temperament were the reasons why this would not be possible. But then I noticed that the sizes were not that different. And Lisa's comments vouch for the temperament and soundness of this particular dog. So that leads me to believe that it is the actual structure that restricts the show dog, not the size or temperament.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG

That's what I was thinking "in rare cases you might get both". If the separation continues, then man is involved in creating a split in the breed via genetic separation. I think that's crazy. If it's at all possible, then we should be striving to have both qualities in one dog.

It sounds like they may be too far apart though caused by catering to special interest groups than what is best for the breed. If the dog didn't trot as pretty around the ring but had all the other qualities, would the judges really fault the dog? I wouldn't be surprised.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> SuperG
> 
> That's what I was thinking "in rare cases you might get both". If the separation continues, then man is involved in creating a split in the breed via genetic separation. I think that's crazy. If it's at all possible, then we should be striving to have both qualities in one dog.
> 
> It sounds like they may be too far apart though caused by catering to special interest groups than what is best for the breed. If the dog didn't trot as pretty around the ring but had all the other qualities, would the judges really fault the dog? I wouldn't be surprised.



Interesting that you come to this conclusion or query.....I have asked the same of my brother in law who is rather involved in the world of Rough Collies at a conformation level. I ask if a champion of the show ring is also a champion of the herding discipline....it seems that the "complete collie" is rather rare or nonexistent. Yes, there are conformation champions that may have done well in herding but it is the exception....each discipline seems to have their own champions. I believe the same is true in GSDs... Since I have a huge bias..plus own one...the WGSL seemed like a variant of a GSD which had to prove itself to be the best of conformation along with performance.....not that they would be champions of either alone but yet judged on a combination of both.

ASL champions of the show show ring have no requirement similar to a Sieger past the conformation portion of competition and I have no idea what the true working lines GSDs have for competitions besides the obvious...I have to assume they have a conformation requirement but could be wrong ??


But I agree with your premise....that the "Total GSD " ...structure and performance is not a priority of the overall GSD community or a venue where this is judged and tested.

There are others in this forum who would know much more about this than myself....


SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It is a shame. I've read that even though the Germans have their requirements, that there lines are still in trouble and would benefit from cross breeding with the American lines at this point to straighten out some of the problems and vice versa. 

What a mess. The more I learn about the breed, the more I realize what trouble it is in. As you say, it's happening with other breeds too. Why can't we just leave stuff alone? On the one hand, you've got showline breeders telling everyone this is what the breed should look like and in fact that "look" renders the breed useless for the purpose it was created. I don't see how anyone from the judges on down can allow it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DDR breeders, lol....not really funny.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Way back when .... a German shepherd was both; worked all day and then won the shows. That was the Golden Age of the German shepherd, something that has been deconstructed for the past 40 years. Sad but true.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi Doc, I was just reading an old 2010 post about the subject. Your name was mentioned.

From what I gather from that post. It certainly is possible however, people are reluctant to give up any of what they consider the best attributes of their line in order to achieve a dog that is both.

Is that your take? I didn't know about the DDR line until Onyx made a comment. from what I've read this morning it has helped. Shorter but with sounder hips sounds good to me.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Doc is correct. Form used to follow function, but, while there has always been a divide between show and work in Europe (though not as extreme as now), the American conformation ring definitely went their own direction.

I can't remember if Mystique showed only as an all breed dog or if she did specialties. I know years ago there was a huge difference in the dogs and the greater extremes were found at the GSD specialties where as the GSD that competed in the all breed shows were less extreme. 

My comment about her temperament didn't mean she had the temperament to work. She just wasn't a total spook like some I saw and have seen. She was a solid dog. There was a sable dog that Jimmy Moses (I think) campaigned after her that was a nerve bag. I remember him at Westminster with his tucked tail wanting to be any place but that arena.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Unfortunately, it's a either/or breed for the most part. There are a few exceptions on this board (I think Andeka) still strives for balance between show/work. IMO, this board slants toward - what is called today -"working lines". Again, IMO today's "working line" terminology is used to describe dogs that are bred for sport not work. The earlier dogs that were called workin dogs did a wide a variety of things not just participate in venues where dogs are rewarded points for a trained activity. I'm sure I will be thrown under the bus for my statements, but if you go back and study the history of the breed, I think you will see what I am talking about.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That explains much. I am 60 and this "older" information about GSD abilities must have stuck in the back of my mind all these years. I have always had GSD's but have never made/had the time to learn more about the breed until now. 

It seems like there would certainly be a demand for these dual purpose dogs. At least with the owner that is not at the upper levels of competition. I hope there is a reach out with breeders to reconnect and reverse some of the severe changes that limit multiple abilities.

The article I read says that Mystique was actually Canadian bred, I think they're a little miffed they never got recognition for that...lol

Thank you both for the information.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Mystique showed in all breeds AND specialties, and is the top winning show dog of all time...though Matisse the PWD may surpass her this year.

She won 275 all breed BIS and 30 specialty shows, accumulated in 30 months time

She is also a 3 x Select Champion


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Stonevintage said:


> It seems like there would certainly be a demand for these dual purpose dogs. At least with the owner that is not at the upper levels of competition. I hope there is a reach out with breeders to reconnect and reverse some of the severe changes that limit multiple abilities.


There are many GSDs that you can show and also title in SchH and train in other sports or working venues. Many people do it. Not many dogs seem bred for it, but it's a lot of time and work so I can understand why a breeder or a breeding program is going to focus their efforts in one or a few areas meaningful to them. My GSDs have been working lines (one mostly WG with some DDR on one side, the other WG), a west German show line, and a cross between those lines and all of them have participated in multiple styles of show events and multiple training/competition venues. I don't have the money or the time to be really competitive at the top level of either nor do I really care to, but it hasn't been too difficult finding decent, healthy dogs that can do well and be fun to show and train on both sides. The last few SV shows (German style GSD shows) I have entered have had more and more working lines and crosses of lines.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lilesje - That's great news. I looked and couldn't find any dual dogs. Happy to hear it's becoming more common.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What do you mean by "dual"? (sorry in my mind I think of a police K9 that is dual purpose). You will likely not find any AKC CH or GRCH GSDs with serious working or sport titles but that's probably more to do with ring politics and the necessity of a professional handler than a lack of dogs that could be shown respectably. Like I said, it's just too much money to be training decent dogs in multiple venues AND have to pay professional handling for the AKC ring, plus that takes up valuable training time. I am also the type of person that would never send my dog away, so even if I could afford the professional handling and had a dog that might show well in the AKC breed ring, I'd never send my dog away to live with a handler. Just not my thing. There are other venues where GSDs can be shown and evaluated.


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