# Czechoslovakian Vlcaks, Opinions/Info?



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

http://www.akc.org/breeds/czechoslovakian_wolfdog/

I just learned about the breed, and I'm wondering what the general GSD community thinks of them, considering GSDs were the base of their beginnings.







Being that there's currently no one in the US breeding these dogs, and as far as I can tell, only one person even considering it, there isn't a whole lot of information on the breed that I can find. I did come across the wikipedia article and a website that looks something like these forums, but they're too hard for me to read, since it's all split up between different languages, and there is a LOT of broken english.









wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakian_Wolfdog

History of the breed from the forum website:

http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/44.html

Website for the only US breeder I could find:

http://www.galomyoak.com/Czechoslovakianvlcak.html



Personally, from what I've read, I think they're amazing dogs, but I'm curious as to other people's takes on them, as well as any history or info anyone can give me.







I've e-mailed that breeder a novel's worth of questions, but I figured I'd post about it here, as well!









P.S. Sorry if this thread belongs somewhere else, I didn't know where to put it!


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

Beautiful!!! If I had the money and more time, and maybe one less dog right now I would consider it. Until then I just get to dream. I would love to meet one


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think they're a very interesting breed. I came across them in a Google search some time back and read about them a bit at the time. I believe there is a breeder in Canada, too, if I remember correctly.

One thing that strikes me about these dogs is that there are many, such as this one - http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/77273/ - whose coloring looks a lot like photos of German Shepherds in the 1930s and 1940s. I picked up a book from 1942 the other day, "Dogs Against Darkness - The Story of the Seeing Eye", that has quite a few Shepherd photos in it, and many of those dogs are colored very similar to the Czech Wolfdogs, with the very light colored cheeks.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Here in Europe they are also rare, but for good reason. They tend to be anxious, sometimes kissy-sweet, unpredictable, aloof, nervous, easily overwhelmed, dog-aggressive, strong-minded, independant, mistrustful, unable to settle easily in the home, hard to train, mouthy, suspicious. My dog's trainer boards a breeding pair regularly when the owner goes on business trips. The male met my Grimm, and beat the stuffing out of Grimm for what the wolfdog felt was an infraction of the rules of conduct. Grimm's personality is such, that they were the best of pals after that-- but most dogs wouldn't have responded the way Grimm did. They are beautiful dogs, but my trainer has said that they make very poor pets.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfHere in Europe they are also rare, but for good reason. They tend to be anxious, sometimes kissy-sweet, unpredictable, aloof, nervous, easily overwhelmed, dog-aggressive, strong-minded, independant, mistrustful, unable to settle easily in the home, hard to train, mouthy, suspicious. My dog's trainer boards a breeding pair regularly when the owner goes on business trips. The male met my Grimm, and beat the stuffing out of Grimm for what the wolfdog felt was an infraction of the rules of conduct. Grimm's personality is such, that they were the best of pals after that-- but most dogs wouldn't have responded the way Grimm did. They are beautiful dogs, but my trainer has said that they make very poor pets.


I'm curious how you feel this compares to an akita? From what I've heard, that kind of primitive dog is what their attitudes make me think of. Definitely not the sort of breed that everyone can handle, but amazing dogs in the right hands.

I'm also curious what people's take on their continuation in general? They definitely seem like the type of dog that needs a job to do, and extensive obedience training, which doesn't necessarily make for a good family pet. But as a breed, do you think they have merit? Or are they too close to people just breeding wolf-hybrids?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

An Akita is self-confidant, secure, bold, capable and knows it. He feels safe in his home, yard, neighborhood, and beyond. A Czech Wolfdog has built-in anxieties, and even the most stable of them have a tough time in new situations where you could take a calm, bold, assertive Akita. I would also never say that a Czech Wolfdog needs a job to do. They need an enormous amount of excersise in a VERY securely-fenced in area, but are many are simply too independant to want to work for/with a handler. Not all Czech wolfdogs are this way, but MANY just prefer to do their own thing. Training is iffy. My trainer feels they are too wolf hyvrid-y to be reliable pets even for those committed to training, because the training doesn't "stick" when genetics assert themselves regarding chasing prey, digging cooling holes, panicking at confinement, panicking at the sound of the coffeemaker, panicking at the sight of a babycarriage, ignoring owner's commands. (that's the big issue) But STUNNING animals.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: WolfensteinCzechoslovakian Vlcak


Gesundheit









I think they're neat looking dogs. I don't know anything about them, but when I was younger and had delusions of grandeur (or ignorance) about "owning" a wolf hybrid, this breeder was on my "alternate" list


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

It's odd hearing about how skittish they are, because from what I read, that's supposed to be a fault in the breed standard. I thought they were supposed to be more stable/outgoing than, say, a Saaraloos Wolfhound. But then again, I have no first hand experience, that's why I'm asking.









I would also think it would be a shame if dogs that DON'T have an ability to work were allowed to further the breed. I would think the goal would be to have a dog that would be smart enough to do its job on its own, but not to simply not work at all. They sounded very much to me like a calculating breed, like how a husky is going to take in what you say, but decide for itself whether or not it's the right course of action. It doesn't lend itself necessarily to things like Schutzhund, but I would think these dogs (with proper guidance in the infancy of the bred) would do well with other work like tracking, obedience (with the correct motivation), or lure coursing. But, that's just where I would personally like to see the breed go (and like I said, I have no first hand experience







)


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:
> I would also think it would be a shame if dogs that DON'T have an ability to work were allowed to further the breed.


I feel this way about German Shepherd breeding, and there are tons of breeders who are breeding "as companions only", making an effort to remove the working ability and drive from their breeding stock.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> I feel this way about German Shepherd breeding, and there are tons of breeders who are breeding "as companions only", making an effort to remove the working ability and drive from their breeding stock.


That whole debate aside (I agree with you though, btw







) the type of dogs Brightelf is talking about wouldn't make a good family companion, either. One would HOPE that people breeding these dogs would have a goal of a stable temperament, and since the breed is still very new, it is understandable to say that these goals just haven't been met, yet. But, that doesn't stop people from breeding dogs for the wrong reasons.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7832

Thread regarding shyness and working/sporting ability in Vlcaks. Seems like THEY don't stand for the shyness, either!







So it seems like it IS a fault in the breed, but something that some breeders just glaze over. It's sad that it's a problem already, in such a young breed.


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## draggar (Jul 11, 2008)

I know this is an old thread but..



AbbyK9 said:


> I feel this way about German Shepherd breeding, and there are tons of breeders who are breeding "as companions only", making an effort to remove the working ability and drive from their breeding stock.


You don't believe how true this is. It's really sad too, especially when you see a GSD who doens't even have enough to get their HIC (Herding Instinct Cert).

We've recently gottan a Czech vlcak (the only female form the first litter born in the USA- Galomy oak) and due to someone else jumping the gun (too much) we've acquired a second.

Ours is 8 months the other is about 6.5 months old and they're very intelligent, they have a lot of energy, and have a lot of drive.

Just think of this - many in the schutzhund world know that some of the hardest working line dogs in the world come from the Czech Republic (former Czechoslovakia) and the DDR. They used their best working line GSDs to make the vlcak. They were bred to be border patrol dogs, lots of action and attentiveness.

The breed was almost destroyed back in the 1980's - as the Iron Curtain fell the Czechoslovakian government started to destroy their vlcaks to keep the program a secret until public outcry made them decide to save the breed and declare it their national breed (I think now the Czech Republic and Slovakia both keep country of origin status).

The male is still very immature but the female is maturing quickly. She's quite the head turner now with her looks and her temperament is phenominal. Steady, confident, and won't back down. We haven't worked her in schutzhund in the past few months (due to the litter of GSDs) but we're heading back this week or next week where she'll pick it back up. Before, when she bit the sausage, she bit it with her ears forward.

The male is very wolfy (but with a thinner coat). His temperament will need a lot of work to channel but he can also be a great dog when he matures. He also has a TON of energy and a bit of an attitude. He's going to look great, though.

The breed isn't for anyone, if you want something softer I'd suggest a Saarloos (softer temperament version from the Dutch).

The breed is extremely rare in the USA (the CsVCA is maybe 3 or 4 members at this time) and we're working on re-writing the AKC standard as well as guidelines for breeding (I'd hate to see the vlcak go the way the American lined GSD has).

Being skittish / afraid is a disqualifying factor in the standard. While Luna may "break" if something unexpected happens (a branch falls and lands near her, a car backfire, etc..) it is quick and over in less than a second - then she's off to investigate.

We (the CsVCA) also need to be very careful about how we communicate about the breed. To most people here in the USA wolfdog = wolf hybrid (and those are illegal in many places). There is also a lot of negative attitude towards "wolf hybrids" so we're trying to stick with calling them "vlcaks" (Hence the Czechoslovakian *vlcak* club of America).

It is a great breed and I'm sure it won't be long before we see them giving malinois and GSDs a run for their money on the schutzhund field and in police / military work in the USA.


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## alaman (May 3, 2006)

Brightelf said:


> An Akita is self-confidant, secure, bold, capable and knows it. He feels safe in his home, yard, neighborhood, and beyond.


The Akitas I've seen in training were the opposite. Maybe they were just the ones I've seen


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## draggar (Jul 11, 2008)

Here's a video of vlcaks in S&R work.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Basically, Vlcaks are GSDs bred to resemble the Carpathian Wolf with which they were crossed.

They look like wolves but have all the tractability and reliability of a GSD but admittedly more work is required with them.

These beautiful dogs are definitely NOT for the first-time dog owner.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Wolfenstein said:


> Czechoslovakian Vlcak Page
> 
> I just learned about the breed, and I'm wondering what the general GSD community thinks of them, considering GSDs were the base of their beginnings.
> 
> ...


Wolves and wolf hybrids are unreliable and their prey drives are genetically encoded and cannot be eliminated through socialization or training. Those can at best be suppressed. They will never react the way dogs do. The CSV is several generations removed from the original wolf crosses so they have a gentle domestic domestic temperament. If you wanted a GSD that looked like a wolf, this would be the dog to get! I have a feeling this is exactly the sort of animal Captain Max Von Stephanitz had in mind when he created the modern GSD breed. The Czechs took the GSD and crossed it with the best qualities of the wolf to create an entirely new breed of modern dog. One which is still rare.

"The breed was bred from the hard working line of German Shepherd Dogs known as "Z Pohranicni Straze" - these dogs were not bred for beauty or as lazy housepets - German Shepherd fanciers today still recognize the hard working qualities of the descendents from this line. As such, the Vlcak also carries many of those hard working qualities (in addition to wolfish characteristics) - and may not make a suitable pet.

They are true working dogs in every respect.


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## Thesilentone (Jan 5, 2013)

I've read about them before, very interesting breed and to know GSDs were actually used in the creation of them. 
And I've only ever spoken to one person who resides in Canada that had to acquire the dog straight from the country of origin so it doesn't seem as simple there or the US.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

The CSV was created as a dog that would have the temperament, pack mentality, and trainability of the German Shepherd and the strength, physical build, and stamina of the Carpathian wolf.

In other words, a dog that had the renowned qualities of the GSD with the hardiness and strength of the wolf. It was said that four wolf crosses may have been used to get the desired look of the GSD in the past century but the intention was not to create a dog with a "wild" look as the Czechs had successfully done. There is a family resemblance in appearance and temperament between a GSD and a CSV but they are entirely different breeds of dogs and should each be appreciated as such in their own right.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have a friend who was a trainer with Pohranicni Straze. He came to Canada and appeared on my door step looking for a job , to help work my dogs. We became friends. Very charming young man . A group of friends got behind him, helped him find housing , introduced him to the local PD where he could not be a k9 handler because one of the requirements was that he be a LE first - so he trained dogs in man work and was our decoy for a small schutzhund club that I was a member of.
He showed me his little cabin which Pohranicni Straze provided. Lots of pictures and stories.
Immediately behind his home were very secure pens to house the experimental Czech wolf dogs that Pohranicni Straze was trying to master as a useful combination . 
Over the years the topic came up many times in conversation. My impression from him was that they were very prey, very suspicious , very aware , but not GSD or easy to predict or to harness to usefulness.

So co-incidental , this topic. Earlier last night I was talking to Laurel excited about a book that I had been reading .

Title Part Wild - One Woman's Journey with a Creature Caught Between the Worlds of Wolves and Dogs . 
author Ceiridwen Terrill 
glowing endorsement from Temple Grandin 

excerpt from Author's Note : Wolf dog breeders believe that introducing a "wild streak" into the dog genome produces an animal smarter, stronger, and more independent than a dog. To find out if they're right right, I spent five years tracking down geneticists, wolf biologists, and dog trainers" PART WILD: Book on Wolves, Wolf Dogs, Dogs, Hybrids, Foxes


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

You're correct about first generation animals - these are unsuitable as trusted working dogs, companions or pets.

But the CSV today is several generations removed from the original wolf crosses and are now listed as domestic dogs. No special license is required to own them. They are not subject to the special requirements for keeping wolves and wolf-hybrids.

If you love the GSD, this is truly the ultimate dog for GSD lovers and fans.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

There is this guy who imported. CSV and swears they are the greatest SAR dogs on the world. Though we are skeptical he offered a pup for free to prove his point.

Guess who is willing to do the experiment if not for nothing else, for the learning experience of having such a wolfdog and is getting a puppy on the next couple of weeks 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Will love to hear about you experience with this dog! I know one young lady who imported one as a puppy to raise as her service dog. It is skittish and shy - not really service dog material.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

The primary influence is GSD. The wolf was chosen to invigorate the GSD with desirable qualities. Its beautiful looks are secondary; the CSV is a dog bred for working and is happiest when it has something to do.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The only one I know, and mother of the pup, is shy but friendly. I've seen worst Border Collies and Malinois who still work and pretty much your average showline GSD. Though I admit shyness is not exactly my cup of tea I'm exited for the challenge.

That is the beauty of this arrangement: If the puppy doesn't work, it gets back to the breeder and everyone is happy. If the puppy doesn't work, but I get attached to it, I keep him/her as a pet and I'm happy. If the puppy does work it stays on the team and I can either keep it for myself as my working dog or prepare it and then handle it at another team-member and everyone is even happier.

Norman, do you own Czehoslovakian Vlaks?


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> The only one I know, and mother of the pup, is shy but friendly. I've seen worst Border Collies and Malinois who still work and pretty much your average showline GSD. Though I admit shyness is not exactly my cup of tea I'm exited for the challenge.
> 
> That is the beauty of this arrangement: If the puppy doesn't work, it gets back to the breeder and everyone is happy. If the puppy doesn't work, but I get attached to it, I keep him/her as a pet and I'm happy. If the puppy does work it stays on the team and I can either keep it for myself as my working dog or prepare it and then handle it at another team-member and everyone is even happier.
> 
> Norman, do you own Czehoslovakian Vlaks?


No - I must admit was taken with the notion of owning a domesticated wolf. But its not for a first dog owner so I settled for the GSD in my avatar.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Too bad, I was excited by your posts and hoped you had real life experience with them. 

One little word of wisdom... don't believe everything you read on the Internet. If all the GSDs themselves had the temperament written in the standard, the breed would be in a better place than where it's today.


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

I being only 24 have had the pleasure of being around wolf hybrids (90%+ timber and grey wolves). If these Czech wolf dogs are anything like the hybrids I have been around they are not for the faint of heart dog owner. The hybrids I know are VERY timid and basically cannot be trained like a regular dog is able to be trained. Very beautiful and proud animals but not A PET!! I know all of you that posted know this but for anyone thinking about a dog of this caliber which is the highest caliber of dog please do your homework because they will look like a wolf and act like a wolf and KILL just like a wolf. Even for a dog that is 3-5 generations removed from the initial cross this still applies. I have also seen wild wolves on snowmobile in the mountains of Northwestern Maine very near the Quebec border and my encounter with them was the most scary yet exhilarating experience I have ever had with an animal.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

This is the mother of my future pup with me, when she was 5 months old (if everything goes as planned):



















I'm counting the hours to receive it! The litter were supposed to get the official chip from the Kennel Club this week, so I should expect any of these days the call that the puppy will be shipped. Already biting my nails.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

HuskyMal89 said:


> I being only 24 have had the pleasure of being around wolf hybrids (90%+ timber and grey wolves). If these Czech wolf dogs are anything like the hybrids I have been around they are not for the faint of heart dog owner. The hybrids I know are VERY timid and basically cannot be trained like a regular dog is able to be trained. Very beautiful and proud animals but not A PET!! I know all of you that posted know this but for anyone thinking about a dog of this caliber which is the highest caliber of dog please do your homework because they will look like a wolf and act like a wolf and KILL just like a wolf. Even for a dog that is 3-5 generations removed from the initial cross this still applies. I have also seen wild wolves on snowmobile in the mountains of Northwestern Maine very near the Quebec border and my encounter with them was the most scary yet exhilarating experience I have ever had with an animal.


CSVs are domestic dogs not hybrids! They make outstanding pets because they're several generations removed from the original wolf parents. I do agree with you a real wolf or a hybrid is not suitable as a pet. The CSV is the closest people will ever get to owning a dog that looks like a wolf. The GSD heritage should ensure a gentle, loyal and well-behaved dog!


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> This is the mother of my future pup with me, when she was 5 months old (if everything goes as planned):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congratulations on your acquisition of a new Czech Vlcak! You will find the dog has loyalty, fearless and stamina and also offers lots of love to its owner. Its more challenging than a GSD and in training it do remember the following rule in training it - "However, it does not train spontaneously, the behavior of the Czech Wolfdog is strictly purposeful - it is necessary to find motivation for training. The most frequent cause of failure is usually the fact that the dog is tired out with long useless repetitions of the same exercise, which results in the loss of motivation." Keep it varied and interesting and you and the dog will be very happy together. Above all, despite its wild looks, do keep in mind the Vlcak is a dog - not a wolf. You can learn more from other owners of the breed on the Czech Wolfdog Forum. I hope you will find satisfaction from having a unique dog that will turn heads everywhere and this dog will remind you of the immortal "Wild Fang" in the Jack London novels wherever you both roam!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks again :beer: I've read wikipedia too, though I'll wait to see for myself how much of it holds true. You can read in wolfdog.org that there is an editing war on the English article of CsVs right now from different interested parties. I've registered on that forum, but for some reason it doesn't let me post there.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Thanks again :beer: I've read wikipedia too, though I'll wait to see for myself how much of it holds true. You can read in wolfdog.org that there is an editing war on the English article of CsVs right now from different interested parties. I've registered on that forum, but for some reason it doesn't let me post there.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Dogs are individuals and can vary from the breed standard. The info in Wikipedia should be taken with a grain of salt. Feel to post here as you'll find much of what is applicable to GSDs applies to Czech Vlcaks as well as they are GSDs in wolf's clothing.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Don't worry, LOL. I've been on this forum long enough to consider some of their members my friends and I will feel free to post about a potbellied pig if I ever get one


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Bad news... This is the first litter born in the country, so the Kennel Club is having a bureaucracy party before tattooing the pups. I doubt it will be less than 3 weeks before I can get mine...


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Bad news... This is the first litter born in the country, so the Kennel Club is having a bureaucracy party before tattooing the pups. I doubt it will be less than 3 weeks before I can get mine...


Patience....while you're at it, gets yours microchipped and order a Fur Code collar and tag. You can't be too careful...


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

This is not a microchip and tattoo not to lost your pet. These are the official ones required by the KCC. It's not something you do on your own.

Since my dogs are registered, both are already chipped and tattooed. Akela is also DNAed. But I appreciate your expertise.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> This is not a microchip and tattoo not to lost your pet. These are the official ones required by the KCC. It's not something you do on your own.
> 
> Since my dogs are registered, both are already chipped and tattooed. Akela is also DNAed. But I appreciate your expertise.


Good to know. Losing a rare (and expensive) dog is not something to be taken lightly. When you get her, give us your impressions!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Finally my pup is home! I'll open his own thread as soon as I take and upload some pictures.



NormanF said:


> The CSV was created as a dog that would have the temperament, pack mentality, and trainability of the German Shepherd and the strength, physical build, and stamina of the Carpathian wolf.
> 
> In other words, a dog that had the renowned qualities of the GSD with the hardiness and strength of the wolf.


I've only had my pup for a few days, but by now and seeing the parents and the rest of the litter I can say that on my limited experience nothing could be further away from the truth than this.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Here it is:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...oslovakian-vlcak-pup-non-gsd.html#post3871354


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Here it is:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...oslovakian-vlcak-pup-non-gsd.html#post3871354


A gorgeous looking puppy - wolves have small ears so the large ears and the build are indicative of the GSD heritage. The rest of course resembles the Carpathian wolf. Keep us updated on how your puppy does and congratulations on your new Czech Vlcak Kavik!


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