# How safe are Herbals and How do we know they work?



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

*How safe are Herbals and How do we know they work?*

Just wondering because my Vet wants me to put Zelda on Carprophen for her pain and she is only 1 year old. I think in general her recovery after exercise is quicker with the carprophen as im doing the week trial he wanted me to do, etc. But i am worried about the long term effects of carprophen on her body..
So someone suggest and i've researched some natural herbals, and most of them seem to have good reviews.
But a friend asked me how do i know if they are safe, sometimes they aren't even FDA approved. And I thought it was a good question, and i cant really seem to find an answer anywhere.. And also how do we know they work?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What about the things I recommended to you (in the pm you sent me)? 

The safety of herbal products really depends. Some herbs are very powerful and can interact with other drugs and/or herbs. Others are very safe. And it also depends where they come from and who manufactures them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

What particular herbals are you looking at? For pain/inflammation?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Wow! Your dog is really young to have pain. I'm sorry you both have to go thru this. 

Carprophen has some awful side effects, so I don't blame you for looking into something natural to help her.

Maybe you could see a holistic vet who is versed in Chinese Herbals or Western Herbals to put your mind at ease. I can send you a list of registered Holistic Vets in your state if you are interested.

Have you considered a Homeopathic Remedy such as Traumeel or Zeel?
TRAUMEEL: Inflammation of muscles, bone, soft tissue, tendon, ligaments, nerves.
Aconitum napellus
Arnica Montana, radix
Bellis perennis
Calendula officinalis
Chamomilla
Echiacea Agustifolia
Echinacea purpurea
Hammamelis virginiana
Herpar Sulphuris calcareum
Hypericum perforatum
Mercurius solubilis
Millefolium
Symphytum officianale

ZEEL: Degenerative conditions like arthritis, spondylitis, disc disease.
Ingredients:
Arnica montana, radix (mountain arnica)
Dulcamara (bittersweet)
Rhus toxicodendron (poison oak)
Sanguinaria canadensis (blood root)
Symphytum officinale (comfrey)
Sulphur (sulphur)
(alpha)-Lipoicum acid (thioctic acid)
Coenzyme A (coenzyme A)
Nadidum (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide)
Natrum oxalaceticum (sodium oxalacetate)
Cartilago suis (porcine cartilage)
Embryo totalis suis (porcine embryo)
Funiculus umbilicalis suis (porcine umbilical cord)
Placenta suis (porcine placenta)

Traumeel: Traumeel Oral Drops - Traumeel
Zeel: In a recent clinical study, Zeel was found to be as effective as COX 2 inhibitor. http://www.heel.com/upload/Zeel_GP_Flyer_ANG_Nov2008_7313.pdf 

Moms


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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

I've been using herbs for kane with his epilepsy and herbs for source vitamins and never had issues they are more safe than most drugs as some drugs cause liver and kidney damage . You just have to read up on that herb see if any side effects but you'd be amazed how many pet owners are going herbal due to fact less harmfull to animals and humans I swear by them been using herbs for 6 years now you can only try 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

They don't need be fda approved cause herbs don't come under drug licenses as there something that comes from the natural earth not man made 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

As well, carprophen was FDA approved for human's and later pulled "voluntarily" by Pfizer. It went to vet medicine exclusively. I read somewhere that Pfizer was going to loose FDA approval if they didn't make it CLEAR about the adverse reactions.


Main Rimadyl page warning...right under all the happy doggies who have been restored to pain free life

*IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION*: RIMADYL is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication available only by prescription through your veterinarian. As with other NSAID-class medications, signs of RIMADYL intolerance may include appetite loss, vomiting and diarrhea, which could indicate side effects involving the digestive tract, liver or kidneys. Some of these* side effects may occur without warning* and, in rare situations may be serious, resulting in hospitalization or even death. If these signs occur, discontinue RIMADYL therapy and consult your veterinarian. Refer to the Full Prescribing Information for complete details.

https://www.rimadyl.com/


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I second the Traumheel or Zeel.. Also check with a holistic vet


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if my dog was having pain after exercising i would stop the exercise.
does your Vet know what's causing the pain or is he masking the pain
with drugs?



VTGirlT said:


> *How safe are Herbals and How do we know they work?*
> 
> Just wondering because my Vet wants me to put Zelda on Carprophen for her pain and she is only 1 year old.
> 
> ...


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> What about the things I recommended to you (in the pm you sent me)?
> 
> The safety of herbal products really depends. Some herbs are very powerful and can interact with other drugs and/or herbs. Others are very safe. And it also depends *where they come from and who manufactures them.*


Ya, If i go with a herbal for pain, i will probably go with one with good reviews and the ones you suggested seem to have good reviews  It's just when i look up the suggestions i want to be sure what i am giving her will give no long term side effects. In general.. i do believe herbals are safer than prescription medications. 
That is what I am concerned about, i read an article how its not as regulated, how do we know what is truly in it and where its coming from? 



Freestep said:


> What particular herbals are you looking at? For pain/inflammation?


Some of the ones i was looking into were "Get-up and Go" and "Canine Pain Plus" and my problem is, this is w hole new world for me really and i don't know anything about it or what to look for, etc. 



Momto2GSDs said:


> Wow! Your dog is really young to have pain. I'm sorry you both have to go thru this.
> 
> Carprophen has some awful side effects, so I don't blame you for looking into something natural to help her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the sympathy, i also feel very bad for her for being so young and being in pain like that, i am mostly worried a few years down the road even she will act like a complete old lady dog. That is what i want to stay away from. Build up muscle, have her good supplements (which i think i do), and giving her some pain meds to help with quick recovery. 
Honestly, i am willing to do whatever is safe and works. If its a little pricey, i can probably manage. But i just want it to be safe on her body and that we see a change, and it doesn't have to happen fast like with most medications.
I've never been the "natural" type but am starting to lean that way a lot more. 
It's just the question if its safe was not something i could answer myself, which meant i needed answers and to do research.. And i am still not sure if anyone truly knows?
There is a great holistic Vet i know, he actually use to work at where i work at, but started his own place called Qi vet. He is really great. I do however have an employees discount where i work and mostly want to stick with the animal hospital where i work because of that.. But if i do ever stop working at the Vet, than i will go to the holistic Vet. 



sarah1366 said:


> I've been using herbs for kane with his epilepsy and herbs for source vitamins and never had issues they are more safe than most drugs as some drugs cause liver and kidney damage . *You just have to read up on that herb see if any side effects* but you'd be amazed how many pet owners are going herbal due to fact less harmfull to animals and humans I swear by them been using herbs for 6 years now you can only try
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Glad you found something for your dog that works!  And i will do! 



sarah1366 said:


> They don't need be fda approved cause herbs don't come under drug licenses as there something that comes from the natural earth not man made
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thats true, and even FDA approved can be proven dangerous later. But it still doesn't prove that herbals are safe because they come from earth or if it truly works. 



GatorBytes said:


> As well, carprophen was FDA approved for human's and later pulled "voluntarily" by Pfizer. It went to vet medicine exclusively. I read somewhere that Pfizer was going to loose FDA approval if they didn't make it CLEAR about the adverse reactions.
> 
> 
> Main Rimadyl page warning...right under all the happy doggies who have been restored to pain free life
> ...


Wow, thanks for sharing that.. that is very scary actually especially since when i asked about it, my vet said we would have to do blood work, but that he thought it was safe in general long term. But being that blood work has to be done, it kind of is a red flag right there.



JakodaCD OA said:


> I second the Traumheel or Zeel.. Also check with a holistic vet


think it would be a bad idea to have two vets? I think it would be low.. to have one vet advice me in something and have the other vet do it because it will be at least half price. Becase im also wondering if i can do a RAW diet with Zelda that will help her allergies. I know the Qi Vet is into Raw. Because the duck and potato and the other venison and potato prescription diet isn't working well if at all. And i been doing it for weeks. She is less itchy.. But still very itchy. And she is also on clariton and benedryl for her itchiness. 



doggiedad said:


> if my dog was having pain after exercising i would stop the exercise.
> does your Vet know what's causing the pain or is he masking the pain
> with drugs?


Well she has HD. And he said to let her go on her own terms. So for instance to let her off leash and let her run as much as she wants and she will be done by laying down, which is true i guess she knows when she needs to rest. Because less than 10-15 minutes she is done. It use to be under minutes before i started her on supplements. So clearly, the supplements are working or and she is building muscle. But two of my vets said that i shouldn't necessarily stop her from running, just let her do what she wants in moderation. So it doesn't happen everyday.



It's defiantly really difficult when people are telling me complete opposite things when all i want to do is what is safest and best for my dog. But its also great because i dont want to be blind to the situation and just do what one person says. 
But i am really learning towards going holistic with almost everything. 
But then there was the financial problem.. 









heres a picture of her, she is a snow girl!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If she definitely has HD, have you discussed Adequan therapy with the vet for long-term improvement of the pain? It was fabulous for my senior, and I know several young dogs with HD in our play group that are benefiting too. Instead of masking symptoms, it helps keep the joint lubricated and maintain adequate cartilage. It's not inexpensive, and it's a long-term commitment, but it's helped many dogs get off NSAIDs.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Magwart said:


> If she definitely has HD, have you discussed Adequan therapy with the vet for long-term improvement of the pain? It was fabulous for my senior, and I know several young dogs with HD in our play group that are benefiting too. Instead of masking symptoms, it helps keep the joint lubricated and maintain adequate cartilage. It's not inexpensive, and it's a long-term commitment, but it's helped many dogs get off NSAIDs.












I agree with the advice given before of treating the symptoms not the xray. But her symptoms are not so great. Such as laying down on long walks or after running for short periods, stiffness from laying down, limping after certain exercise (she doesn't lip right now at all). I have alternated her exercise program greatly since i got her obviously and am still altering it with symptoms and new ideas. 
One time she was laying down on her side playing with another dog, and the dog was on top tackling her and she struggles to get up with her legs, not like she couldn't because of her hips, but she couldn't cause of the other dog. Once i got her up she was barely able to walk on her hips.. As if they were jolted out of place. So i carried her down stairs on my bed and let her lay there for quiet and she was able to walk with slight limp after a while. I think that is one of the saddest moments i've seen with her HD.. It broke my heart and made me cry, because i felt so bad for her. It's really hard living with a HD dog.. If i even made 25-30k a year i would defiantly get her THR.. But i am just not in the financial situation with my debt and low paying job. so i have to find alternatives. 
Before i got Zelda, HD never even crossed my mind. Now it feels like such a plague and i tell people how blessed their dog and they are for not having HD. Zelda could be worse though, so i guess that is a positive way at looking at it. She still has quality of life.

Adequon therapy, how often does one use? what is the average cost? What is the procedure like?
Going to the vet in general is very stressful on Zelda as she is fearful Aggressive to strangers and the vet is just way over her threshold, and despite this she does amazing but is very stressed the whole time. She has released her anal glands before there when they took her out back without me because they thought she would do better without me there. so the least amount of times taking her there the better! 
My vet did not mention it as an option, i am wondering if its because they do not do it there? I certainly will ask when i call him to update him on Zelda doing on carprophen.


Sorry about this being long!


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

According to the Traumeel website - Traumeel Tablets 100 CT - Traumeel - Traumeel contains* belladonna*. According to the U.S. National Institutes of Health - Belladonna: MedlinePlus Supplements, belladonna is toxic :

"Belladonna is *UNSAFE* when taken by mouth. It contains chemicals that can be toxic.
Side effects can include dry mouth, enlarged pupils, blurred vision, red dry skin, fever, fast heartbeat, inability to urinate or sweat, hallucinations, spasms, mental problems, convulsions, and coma."


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Adequan is an injection. There are many threads about it on this board -- please do a search to learn more about it.

The usual protocol is 4 weeks of 2 shots a week, then 1 shot a week for a couple of weeks, then every other week, then (maybe) once a month (some dogs maintain at every other week better, some are fine at once a month). The vet can sell you the adequan vials to give the intramuscular injections at home, if you are comfortable doing it (I'm not). Cost varies widely -- for 75# dog, in my city, depending on the vet it costs $25-$55 per injection for them to do it (with ~$40 being most common), and it's much cheaper if you buy by the vial to inject at home.

It apparently does not work if you don't do the "loading dose" (2 shots a weeks for 4 weeks)--that's the key, so if you're going to do it, be prepared to get the dog through that month of frequent deep-IM shots. 

I know a 1-year old and a 3-year old who have _terrible_ hips on x-rays who have very high quality of life on this stuff -- they are able to run and play for over an hour at the dog park, with no sign of pain afterward.

There's another similar, less expensive generic product I've heard some dogs doing well on recently called "Polyglycan." I don't have any experience with it--just have heard it's working for one young dog.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

If you want to know if herbals are safe, well then you'll have to do a lot of reading and research. See if you can find peer reviewed journals / articles. As for the quality, that's another story.

I've tried herbals for pain for my dog and myself. Nothing has been effective but Advil for me, and even that does not always help. Strong anti-inflammatorys like prednisone have helped but the side effects are so bad, can only take for 2-3 days.

My dog and I both take fish oils, and many health professionals have said the brand we take is the gold standard of fish oils, Nordic Naturals.

If you do use carprofen on a regular basis, you should get a baseline liver and kidney blood panel and have your dog rechecked for these values. I don't think there will be an easy fix for your dog and I'm so sorry.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

If you have a Holistic vet you know and trust, then I say go to him/her for advice on herbals - especially in place of NSAIDS.

There is nothing wrong with having two vets. You can use your staff discount for diagnostics/conventional vet, emergencies and the Holistic vet for advice on RAW, skin and hip issues. Ask him/her about Wobenzyme, serratiopeptidase, curcumin, boswellia, devils claw, yucca, bromelain, astragalas root, bovine colostrum. and bone stock...oh and NEM (natural eggshell membrane)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just coming back to this thread. Make sure you understand the difference between herbs and homeopathy. 

Traumeel and Zeel are homeopathic remedies.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Zookeep said:


> According to the Traumeel website - Traumeel Tablets 100 CT - Traumeel - Traumeel contains* belladonna*. According to the U.S. National Institutes of Health - Belladonna: MedlinePlus Supplements, belladonna is toxic :
> 
> "Belladonna is *UNSAFE* when taken by mouth. It contains chemicals that can be toxic.
> Side effects can include dry mouth, enlarged pupils, blurred vision, red dry skin, fever, fast heartbeat, inability to urinate or sweat, hallucinations, spasms, mental problems, convulsions, and coma."


Homeopathy is a different type of medicine that uses animal, plant or mineral substances. The major difference with homeopathic medicines is that the substances are used in ultra high dilutions *which makes them NON Toxic. *
"Homeopathy is based on the idea that "like cures like." That is, if a substance causes a symptom in a healthy person, giving the person a very small amount of the same substance may cure the illness. In theory, a homeopathic dose enhances the body's normal healing and self-regulatory processes. 
*Homeopathic remedies have been regulated in the United States since 1938 and are considered to be safe.*" WebMD

I was personally cured by Homeopathy twice for an illness that put me in bed for 2 years.
My constitution was Lachesis, which is made from venom of a Bushmaster snake! 

Hope this helps to clear this up.
Moms


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