# Aggressive "Play" from 11 Month Old GSD Female



## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Hi. I have an 11 month-old female GSD. She's my first GSD. She can be incredibly loving and loyal, especially towards me, but she's also a very aggressive dog. I'm having a consistent difficulty with several things, all of which seem relatively similar.

1. She loves to bully my mom's dog - a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - and our cats. She'll pursue any one of them, stand over the top of them and hit them with her paws. Her trainer said the cats would be fine because they have claws and fangs, but they aren't. They're terrified. I try to keep them separated at all times, but if she gets to them, the more they hiss and swat her, the harder she hits them (or the other dog) or tries to stand on them. I'd like for our home to be an open-doors one at some point, but I don't see the light at the end of this tunnel.

2. She didn't jump on people when she was younger, but has started in the last few months. It's bad enough as it is, but she has injured my elderly parents on several occasions. She is severely reprimanded every time. And I try to correct the behavior before she jumps - getting her attention so that she'll sit for a treat. But it doesn't work. She doesn't want the treat. Instead, she becomes even more hysterical and will jump and bite at them. Keep in mind, she doesn't seem angry or defensive. She seems like she just loves rough-housing with people...which is totally unacceptable.

3. She'll try some aggressive play with me - especially in the evening when she's extremely tired - such as lunging at me and biting me. Again, she doesn't seem angry. She isn't growling. She's playing very violently. I immediately reprimand her very harshly and put her in time-out in her crate. That quiets her down, but the next night she's back at it. She used to grab my arm in her teeth and twist it back and pin it to the bed. I managed to correct that behavior with the immediate reprimand & time out, and she hasn't done that in some time.

It doesn't seem to matter how much exercise she gets. She just loves jumping and bullying and violent play. And of course, there's a limit to what I can do. We can't hike for 3 hours a day. She'll be darling and sweet 70% of the time and a wild and dangerous monster 30% of the time. Is there something more I should be doing to correct this behavior? I really like my dog and want to keep her, but she's made our lives very stressful.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Victoria77 said:


> She is severely reprimanded every time.





Victoria77 said:


> I immediately reprimand her very harshly and put her in time-out in her crate.


What do you mean by these statements? What do you consider a severe reprimand?

Can you describe your training up to this point? Have you proofed behaviors with corrections?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Listen to David above.

That's the only questions:
1/ What is a "severe reprimand"
2/ What is her regular obedience like, how often are you still training her?
3/ Forget 3 hours hiking a day, what is here average every day like?


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

First I’ll say listen to David, then I’ll share my experience with you because my pup a bit younger started all of this stuff you mentioned above, which isn’t aggression to me it’s excitement. Jumping up, start training an “off”, you can find videos online I wouldn’t be able to type the process out, but start it somewhere quiet so pup knows command, then start using a line and a collar in higher distracted situations like when company come over when pup jumps “Off” yank the leash when she’s off, reward. The only success I had with her sort of pawing and dominating my smaller dog in this way was a firm scruff and NO, it took a few tries but I always followed up her action with a correction because this was a difficult one to break, now if I see her show any interest in smaller dog I’ll use an ah ah and try and get her onto something else like a toy or call her say down reward and she’ll then lose interest in the smaller dog by the time that process happens. In terms of rough play, I don’t really rough play or play with my hands with my pup.. she’s mouthy to begin with, it’s natural for her to use her mouth when we do this, for the longest time we didn’t approach our pup without a teething toy or something for this reason.. she’s still like that, so we give a couple pats and that’s it unless she comes to us and is in a loving mood.. I would redirect all your “play” with your pup to a toy, or chew toy or tug.. it’s unlikely I could play with my pup without a toy for a extended period of time. And if you are plying with a toy and she still prefer your hands or arms.. either correct it or walk away. Hope this helps it helped me!

edit: I should say I’m not a professional trainer these are just some of the methods I used for my situation, I may not be able to literate the full picture


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

David Winners said:


> What do you mean by these statements? What do you consider a severe reprimand?
> 
> Can you describe your training up to this point? Have you proofed behaviors with corrections?


Severely reprimanded depends on the situation. If she's jumping on people, the command is "off." And I say it very harshly. If she's bullying the other pets, I say "leave it," again, very harshly. I also take hold of her collar and pull her off of the person/ animal (because she won't get off or leave it otherwise).

She has had two levels of training. All of the basic commands - sit, down, stand, off, leave it, wait, stay (in both sitting and down positions for increasing periods of time), etc. She does respond to these and demonstrates that she knows what they mean. I assume that's what you mean by proofing her behavior with the command. I work on all of these regularly (usually daily) with her although not every one every day.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Listen to David above.
> 
> That's the only questions:
> 1/ What is a "severe reprimand"
> ...


[the first two are a repeat of what I replied to David]
1. Severely reprimanded depends on the situation. If she's jumping on people, the command is "off." And I say it very harshly. If she's bullying the other pets, I say "leave it," again, very harshly. I also take hold of her collar and pull her off of the person/ animal (because she won't get off or leave it otherwise.

2. She has had two levels of training. All of the basic commands - sit, down, stand, off, leave it, wait, stay (in both sitting and down positions for increasing periods of time), etc. She does respond to these and demonstrates that she knows what they mean. I assume that's what you mean by proofing her behavior with the command. I work on all of these regularly (usually daily) with her.

3. She doesn't have an average day. Neither do I. We live on a family farm and work 6 days a week from early morning until late at night. (A good day is when my work is done by 8pm.) I try to incorporate her in everything possible, but she's not ready to work with the smaller livestock. She loves the cows and gets along with them really well. But she is too prey-oriented with the chickens. I still take her out there periodically and work with her on attention redirection with treats to try to teach her to be gentle with them. So far she's not responding well. I'm hoping that some maturity and further training will calm her in that area.

She spends a lot of time running and playing - with me when I'm outside working near her play area (the inner yard) or with one of the cows who loves her. If I go inside to do indoor work, she comes with me. I try to play ball with her (there's a long hall) and give her bones to keep her busy. But sometimes I have to be on the computer for an extended period of time. If she gets bored I let her go outside in a fenced-in area for a while. She often runs up and down the fence talking to the neighbor dogs across the field or our cows who come up to the fence to see her.

When we have time we play Chuck-It until she won't play any longer. My long-term goal is for her to accompany me and help me with everything, all day, every day. She isn't ready for that yet though.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Carter Smith said:


> First I’ll say listen to David, then I’ll share my experience with you because my pup a bit younger started all of this stuff you mentioned above, which isn’t aggression to me it’s excitement. Jumping up, start training an “off”, you can find videos online I wouldn’t be able to type the process out, but start it somewhere quiet so pup knows command, then start using a line and a collar in higher distracted situations like when company come over when pup jumps “Off” yank the leash when she’s off, reward. The only success I had with her sort of pawing and dominating my smaller dog in this way was a firm scruff and NO, it took a few tries but I always followed up her action with a correction because this was a difficult one to break, now if I see her show any interest in smaller dog I’ll use an ah ah and try and get her onto something else like a toy or call her say down reward and she’ll then lose interest in the smaller dog by the time that process happens. In terms of rough play, I don’t really rough play or play with my hands with my pup.. she’s mouthy to begin with, it’s natural for her to use her mouth when we do this, for the longest time we didn’t approach our pup without a teething toy or something for this reason.. she’s still like that, so we give a couple pats and that’s it unless she comes to us and is in a loving mood.. I would redirect all your “play” with your pup to a toy, or chew toy or tug.. it’s unlikely I could play with my pup without a toy for a extended period of time. And if you are plying with a toy and she still prefer your hands or arms.. either correct it or walk away. Hope this helps it helped me!
> 
> edit: I should say I’m not a professional trainer these are just some of the methods I used for my situation, I may not be able to literate the full picture


That's great. Thanks. I'll try these things.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

The dog needs a physical correction following the verbal. You want the dog to think, “holy crap I won’t do that again.”


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sonny1984 said:


> The dog needs a physical correction following the verbal. You want the dog to think, “holy crap I won’t do that again.”


Ok. That sounds good. What would that look like?


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

And keep in mind, when I look back at how difficult she was at 5 or 6 months, she has REALLY come a long way! In so many ways, she's a million times better behaved. So she's definitely improving, she's just still very challenging.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Victoria77 said:


> Ok. That sounds good. What would that look like?


There are lots of ways - prong collars and e collars are the most common, but these aren’t necessary. My gsd had to learn to live with a cat and he doesn’t wear collars in the house. I prioritized my cats safety - the cat has a right to live comfortably and walk around in peace. The dog had a no contact rule with the cat at first - inside a small apartment. I did what it took to always enforce that rule. Once the dog learned to respect no contact, the cat got comfortable enough to initiate contact. From there it was supervision as necessary and now they are best buds.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

She’s getting enough exercise, so you need to focus on training. Does she know a Place command?Try to catch and her before she jumps on anyone or paws the other animals by sending her to a Place, then reward. When she is calm and quiet around the other pets, she gets rewarded. If she’s not, give her a big correction, then even more praise when she responds positively.

She has a lot going on, learning farming when she’s outside and house manners inside. It might be confusing for her because small pets are very different from farm animals and she is required to behaved differently. Be consistent.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Victoria77 said:


> Ok. That sounds good. What would that look like?


I can't answer that question for you, as it depends on the dog. Some dogs need only a harsh word. Others...you just about have to whack them over the head with a 2x4 before the get it. You need to find what works for YOUR dog. And since the dog is repeating the behaviour, your corrections obviously aren't strong enough for this particular dog. 

I like the suggestion of leaving her attached to a leash, but if you do this you must be able t supervise her closely to make sure the leash doesn't catch on something, and she should be wearing a regular collar, not a prong or choke chain. 
I, too, had to train a dog to leave the cat alone. Fortunately, we were in the same room together, and whenever the cat came in, I would watch carefully, and reprimand him as soon as he looked like he was going to go after the cat. Within several weeks, they were actually playing together, and became the best of friends. He got quite depressed when the cat died.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sonny1984 said:


> There are lots of ways - prong collars and e collars are the most common, but these aren’t necessary. My gsd had to learn to live with a cat and he doesn’t wear collars in the house. I prioritized my cats safety - the cat has a right to live comfortably and walk around in peace. The dog had a no contact rule with the cat at first - inside a small apartment. I did what it took to always enforce that rule. Once the dog learned to respect no contact, the cat got comfortable enough to initiate contact. From there it was supervision as necessary and now they are best buds.


I have a training collar that I used to use (only on the vibrate setting). I hate the idea of even the lightest shock, but she doesn't seem to be responding to the verbal commands alone, so I guess I should resurrect it. Thanks for the hope!


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> I can't answer that question for you, as it depends on the dog. Some dogs need only a harsh word. Others...you just about have to whack them over the head with a 2x4 before the get it. You need to find what works for YOUR dog. And since the dog is repeating the behaviour, your corrections obviously aren't strong enough for this particular dog.
> 
> I like the suggestion of leaving her attached to a leash, but if you do this you must be able t supervise her closely to make sure the leash doesn't catch on something, and she should be wearing a regular collar, not a prong or choke chain.
> I, too, had to train a dog to leave the cat alone. Fortunately, we were in the same room together, and whenever the cat came in, I would watch carefully, and reprimand him as soon as he looked like he was going to go after the cat. Within several weeks, they were actually playing together, and became the best of friends. He got quite depressed when the cat died.


I appreciate that. She does seem like one of the more strong willed ones. I'll re-introduce her training collar. It seems like she needs it. Last night I brought her into the living room with the other dog and two of the cats. She had her leash on, but I was able to get her to lie down next to me and stay. She eyed the cats constantly, very tempted, but she didn't do anything. I think we'll eventually get there.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> She’s getting enough exercise, so you need to focus on training. Does she know a Place command?Try to catch and her before she jumps on anyone or paws the other animals by sending her to a Place, then reward. When she is calm and quiet around the other pets, she gets rewarded. If she’s not, give her a big correction, then even more praise when she responds positively.
> 
> She has a lot going on, learning farming when she’s outside and house manners inside. It might be confusing for her because small pets are very different from farm animals and she is required to behaved differently. Be consistent.


I know of the place command, but no, we've never done that one. Thanks for the suggestion. We'll try that one.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Victoria77 said:


> I appreciate that. She does seem like one of the more strong willed ones. I'll re-introduce her training collar. It seems like she needs it. Last night I brought her into the living room with the other dog and two of the cats. She had her leash on, but I was able to get her to lie down next to me and stay. She eyed the cats constantly, very tempted, but she didn't do anything. I think we'll eventually get there.


The dog needs a correction for blowing off known commands. This is proofing.

I highly recommend a prong and not an e-collar unless you have someone with experience guiding you, in person.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

YES, consistency is very important. You can't let her get away with refusing to obey a command she already knows. Also, it's very important to correct her the minute she starts to eyeball the cat, not when she's already going after it. Same thing goes for the chickens or any other distraction.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

David Winners said:


> The dog needs a correction for blowing off known commands. This is proofing.
> 
> I highly recommend a prong and not an e-collar unless you have someone with experience guiding you, in person.


Oh! Ok. I'll look up using a prong collar. Thank you for the advice.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> YES, consistency is very important. You can't let her get away with refusing to obey a command she already knows. Also, it's very important to correct her the minute she starts to eyeball the cat, not when she's already going after it. Same thing goes for the chickens or any other distraction.


So when you say to correct her as soon as she eyes the cat or chickens, you mean with a slip leash or choke/training collar? I usually try an ah ah and attempt to get her attention, but that alone doesn't seem to work.


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## sprenger4life (8 mo ago)

Victoria77 said:


> Oh! Ok. I'll look up using a prong collar. Thank you for the advice.


I agree with David. Learn how to use ecollar from someone reputable because it is very easy to screw dog up if you don't know what you're doing. Prong is harder to screw up but you should learn how to use that too. Some good videos should help you with prong.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

David Winners said:


> The dog needs a correction for blowing off known commands. This is proofing.
> 
> I highly recommend a prong and not an e-collar unless you have someone with experience guiding you, in person.


David why a prong over e collar in these situations? Is the fear the dog doesn’t associate the correction with the stim?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Carter Smith said:


> David why a prong over e collar in these situations? Is the fear the dog doesn’t associate the correction with the stim?


No, it's because most people don't put the time into training the dog fairly with the e-collar and then you get frustration so stuff gets worse. It becomes a no button and it often works for that particular behavior, but then other things become a problem.

A prong is much easier for people to understand.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

If the verbal correction doesn't work, use a leash correction. The important thing is she obeys you, and doesn't blow you off. COSISTENCY is a must.

One of the first things I do with a dog is train a 'look at me' command. Get lots of treats, and at first use the treat to lure the dog to focus on your face. I use "YES!" as a marker when they do it, then give them the treat. Once the command is firmly in place, add distractions, and a physical correction (leash pop) for failure to obey.

This worked wonders with a severely dog-reactive female GSD I rescued. By the end of a one hour class, she and another much MORE reactive dog were lying within 6 feet of each other, and were totally calm.


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi there. Let me reply to this question: 



> Is there something more I should be doing to correct this behavior?


Absolutely! Just follow all the corrections on Beckman's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuOmWJkaAAgP2gMgiLvRSIg
I just applied *all these techniques* (it's basically one) to a rescue Leonberger (70kg) that was WILD at the beginning but is now friendly with the house cat, my other dogs, people, and _some_ strange dogs. The last correction needed is to get Leonberger to _*not snap *_in the dog park or on the street when he feels threatened by another dog (or another dog actually threatens him). 

Cons of this method? I think it takes longer than other ways (such as negative reinforcement via prongs, shocks, whatever). It took me a full year of lockdown to get this one tamed. I brought him into the house as an "inside" dog and basically lived with him 24x7. We did everything together as his abilities slowly grew. After a few months, he was able to walk on a loose lead, go shopping in crowded places, and became fast pals with an angry cat (another being with behavior issues). 

In conclusion, ha!, Beckman and his brand of positive reinforcement is ur friend. 




  








He loves to Jump




__
herojig


__
9 mo ago




Or maybe he just loves his lead that much?


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

herojig said:


> Hi there. Let me reply to this question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! I'll have to check out his channel. Thanks for the suggestions. It sounds like this worked wonders for you.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

herojig said:


> Beckman and his brand of positive reinforcement is ur friend!


Beckman uses all 4 quadrants of operant conditioning, including positive punishment/corrections...


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> If the verbal correction doesn't work, use a leash correction. The important thing is she obeys you, and doesn't blow you off. COSISTENCY is a must.
> 
> One of the first things I do with a dog is train a 'look at me' command. Get lots of treats, and at first use the treat to lure the dog to focus on your face. I use "YES!" as a marker when they do it, then give them the treat. Once the command is firmly in place, add distractions, and a physical correction (leash pop) for failure to obey.
> 
> This worked wonders with a severely dog-reactive female GSD I rescued. By the end of a one hour class, she and another much MORE reactive dog were lying within 6 feet of each other, and were totally calm.


Thanks! We've done the look command. She's pretty good at that one. But we're definitely missing the physical correction/ leash pop and adding in more distractions. We'll add more of those...consistently.


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## Civil DNA (7 mo ago)

@Victoria77 Here is basic how to of markers so you get timing correct (Michael Ellis videos are good too):












The following three vids have good prong collar information:


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## jfert (9 mo ago)

I agree with the others. Your verbal corrections aren’t really corrections - your dog ignores them. The prong is the right place to start. But Given that you live on a farm and what you’re trying accomplish, there may ultimately be a need for distance corrections and thus an e-collar. I’d recommend you start learning about it now, consider finding a trainer with experience and begin to condition the dog to it. You may need it and these steps will help you get a faster start. And don’t be afraid of the e collar. When done correctly and used fairly, it’s great tool. You’ll find that your dog is happier with boundaries and rules.


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## 81Lukas (8 mo ago)

Larry Krohn's method works well. Details are important. Also, don't use cheap ecollars. Use reputable brand like Dogtra or E collar Technologies. Make sure you have proper contacts too.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Civil DNA said:


> @Victoria77 Here is basic how to of markers so you get timing correct (Michael Ellis videos are good too):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'll check these out.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

jfert said:


> I agree with the others. Your verbal corrections aren’t really corrections - your dog ignores them. The prong is the right place to start. But Given that you live on a farm and what you’re trying accomplish, there may ultimately be a need for distance corrections and thus an e-collar. I’d recommend you start learning about it now, consider finding a trainer with experience and begin to condition the dog to it. You may need it and these steps will help you get a faster start. And don’t be afraid of the e collar. When done correctly and used fairly, it’s great tool. You’ll find that your dog is happier with boundaries and rules.


Thanks for the encouragement. I'll look into that too.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

81Lukas said:


> Larry Krohn's method works well. Details are important. Also, don't use cheap ecollars. Use reputable brand like Dogtra or E collar Technologies. Make sure you have proper contacts too.


Thanks Lukas!


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## Finn'sLegacy (Oct 14, 2021)

Wow Victoria77. You just described my dog and our routine to a T. Even the part of loving cows and being in over drive with cats and chickens. He goes nuts over the cat. Thankfully, he didn’t actually hurt the cat when he got a hold of her a couple times. Not sure if he would kill the chickens, thankfully, we haven’t had an encounter. He does great with them in the coop. He rarely gives them any thought . When he does I’m able to call him off and he listens good. Lately he has had a lizard fetish. But it could just as well be a leaf blowing in the wind. He doesn’t bite my arm anymore because we did overcome that. I learned quick not to play aggressive games or chase with him. He comes from a protection line and where most dogs run away when you creep up, he just charged straight on. I realized that’s what he is supposed to do actually, so now it’s balls and tugs. If I chase him, it’s for his tug and he plays keep away, but I also taught him drop it and he does. So I think he knows when we are playing and when it’s game over . He’s 13 months old now and I have a long way to go. I will be watching all the videos posted. I appreciate the replies. I can see some areas I’m missing. I don’t want to lose the ground we’ve gained.
blessings.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

Finn'sLegacy said:


> Wow Victoria77. You just described my dog and our routine to a T. Even the part of loving cows and being in over drive with cats and chickens. He goes nuts over the cat. Thankfully, he didn’t actually hurt the cat when he got a hold of her a couple times. Not sure if he would kill the chickens, thankfully, we haven’t had an encounter. He does great with them in the coop. He rarely gives them any thought . When he does I’m able to call him off and he listens good. Lately he has had a lizard fetish. But it could just as well be a leaf blowing in the wind. He doesn’t bite my arm anymore because we did overcome that. I learned quick not to play aggressive games or chase with him. He comes from a protection line and where most dogs run away when you creep up, he just charged straight on. I realized that’s what he is supposed to do actually, so now it’s balls and tugs. If I chase him, it’s for his tug and he plays keep away, but I also taught him drop it and he does. So I think he knows when we are playing and when it’s game over . He’s 13 months old now and I have a long way to go. I will be watching all the videos posted. I appreciate the replies. I can see some areas I’m missing. I don’t want to lose the ground we’ve gained.
> blessings.


Hi Finn's Legacy. I feel for you. I ordered the prong collar that many people recommended. It's due to arrive tomorrow. I also watched several of the videos posted here. I have an idea of where to start with her, but we'll see how it goes. It is challenging in that training with the prong collar requires that she be on-leash. That will mean some extensive changes in how we handle her on a farm, at least for now while she's training. Even in the house, she's often off-leash, but when she misbehaves, I can't train her because she's out of reach and doesn't listen to my commands. So no more off-leash time for now unless she's alone with me.


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## sprenger4life (8 mo ago)

Victoria77 said:


> Hi Finn's Legacy. I feel for you. I ordered the prong collar that many people recommended. It's due to arrive tomorrow. I also watched several of the videos posted here. I have an idea of where to start with her, but we'll see how it goes. It is challenging in that training with the prong collar requires that she be on-leash. That will mean some extensive changes in how we handle her on a farm, at least for now while she's training. Even in the house, she's often off-leash, but when she misbehaves, I can't train her because she's out of reach and doesn't listen to my commands. So no more off-leash time for now unless she's alone with me.


Shield K9 just put out another video on prong yesterday.





As for leashes, you can use short and long leashes depending on what you are doing or where you are. Just keep the handle cut off so there is no loop for anything to catch to when dog is dragging it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Victoria77 said:


> Hi Finn's Legacy. I feel for you. I ordered the prong collar that many people recommended. It's due to arrive tomorrow. I also watched several of the videos posted here. I have an idea of where to start with her, but we'll see how it goes. It is challenging in that training with the prong collar requires that she be on-leash. That will mean some extensive changes in how we handle her on a farm, at least for now while she's training. Even in the house, she's often off-leash, but when she misbehaves, I can't train her because she's out of reach and doesn't listen to my commands. So no more off-leash time for now unless she's alone with me.


It's not about particular situations as much as it is about creating habits. Good behaviors need to be rewarding. Disobedience needs a correction. Build those habits and everything gets easy.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

sprenger4life said:


> Shield K9 just put out another video on prong yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

David Winners said:


> It's not about particular situations as much as it is about creating habits. Good behaviors need to be rewarding. Disobedience needs a correction. Build those habits and everything gets easy.


Thanks David. She's so willful - she'll obey one minute and then she'll go right back to what she wanted to do. It's hard to picture her transitioning off of the prong collar at some point and still obeying, but I'm going to do everything I can to train her correctly.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Victoria77 said:


> Thanks David. She's so willful - she'll obey one minute and then she'll go right back to what she wanted to do. It's hard to picture her transitioning off of the prong collar at some point and still obeying, but I'm going to do everything I can to train her correctly.


What is your reward schedule like? I try to stay at about 10:1 until adulthood. Motivation is important. The juice has to be worth the squeeze for the dog.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

.


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

David Winners said:


> What is your reward schedule like? I try to stay at about 10:1 until adulthood. Motivation is important. The juice has to be worth the squeeze for the dog.


For some things like commands we practice (sit, down, stay, etc.) it's extremely high - almost 100%. It's the everyday things that are the problem. For example, I'll be in the kitchen/ family room area, with all of the other doors closed so that she can be off leash with me (and her toys) while I'm cooking or working on something. She constantly tries to slip down the hall when I'm not watching and open the door to the master bedroom so that she can pounce on the cats.

If I see her headed that way, I'll tell her to leave it. Sometimes she circles back around. More often she ignores me and goes anyways. If she circles back to me, should I reward her? I feel like there's a significant delay between the leaving of the door/ cats and the getting back to me. [The bedroom door is perhaps 40 feet or more from where I am.] Will she associate a reward with coming back and not busting into the bedroom?


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

David Winners said:


> What is your reward schedule like? I try to stay at about 10:1 until adulthood. Motivation is important. The juice has to be worth the squeeze for the dog.


One thing I saw that seemed like it might help was the following video Civil DNA posted. It introduced the idea of markers - a verbal mark that lets the dog know immediately that a treat is coming in case there's more than a 1-2 second delay between behavior and consequence.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This question has been nagging me since the OP. 

Outside of using "leave it" or "off" stated harshly to get her to stop undesirable behaviors, have you spent time teaching her what these commands mean exactly? In a game perhaps? 

Personally I don't use treats in every day situations. For training and periodic reinforcement yes, but not regularly by any stretch thereafter.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't use treats either, but I certainly use verbal, social and toy rewards a lot for everyday behaviors.

Dogs figure out training time and other time really quickly. My goal is to have no gap, so I reward and correct consistently for behaviors as often as possible.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I met guy a few weeks ago with a GSD pup at the park. I said "what is he about 5 months old?" and he said "yes, actually 5 months today"

I couldn't help but bend down to see the pup but he was fearful and backed away. Had a good half hour chat with the guy, new to GSD etc. but he was training with Haz who told him to have this little pup on a prong collar at 4 months and I have no idea why. I like Haz but this dog absolutely did not need to be on a prong that young as far as I could see.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I don't know if Haz would say that.....I'm in his Facebook group in which he is active in. I've seen him say not until 6 months. He is pretty soft when it comes to puppies. As a matter of fact he has set many people straight when it comes to puppies and young dogs. I find that hard to believe.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

I would train markers before the prong. Prong you could in theory do without - I’ve never heard of anyone seriously train a dog without markers.


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## Civil DNA (7 mo ago)

WNGD said:


> I met guy a few weeks ago with a GSD pup at the park. I said "what is he about 5 months old?" and he said "yes, actually 5 months today"
> 
> I couldn't help but bend down to see the pup but he was fearful and backed away. Had a good half hour chat with the guy, new to GSD etc. but he was training with Haz who told him to have this little pup on a prong collar at 4 months and I have no idea why. I like Haz but this dog absolutely did not need to be on a prong that young as far as I could see.


Even if Haz decided the best tool for this pup and owner was a prong, what does that have to do with being fearful and backing away?

Is it not possible, that the dog is genetically fearful and has nothing to do with the prong?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Apex1 said:


> I don't know if Haz would say that.....I'm in his Facebook group in which he is active in. I've seen him say not until 6 months. He is pretty soft when it comes to puppies. As a matter of fact he has set many people straight when it comes to puppies and young dogs. I find that hard to believe.


Could be the owner was nervous about people seeing the prong on the pup but that's exactly what he told me. Haz's facility is (Shield K9) is just 20 minutes from me. McCann is even closer.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Civil DNA said:


> Even if Haz decided the best tool for this pup and owner was a prong, what does that have to do with being fearful and backing away?
> 
> Is it not possible, that the dog is genetically fearful and has nothing to do with the prong?


I was just relating a story, the prong was an observation on a young pup and not meant to be related to the pup's personality necessarily. I don't think a prong belongs on a (barely) 5 month old pup but really wasn't passing judgement on the owner or Haz.

I don't see prongs too often around here other than a neighbor with a very large Dobe that needs it but the owner is clueless on the application (yank and crank).


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## Victoria77 (Dec 18, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> This question has been nagging me since the OP.
> 
> Outside of using "leave it" or "off" stated harshly to get her to stop undesirable behaviors, have you spent time teaching her what these commands mean exactly? In a game perhaps?
> 
> Personally I don't use treats in every day situations. For training and periodic reinforcement yes, but not regularly by any stretch thereafter.


Hi Tim. Yes, her trainer had me doing games with her to leave it. And I've done a LOT of training with her using "off" (and many other commands) in more fun settings (often with food involved). She responds correctly until it involves something like the cat, something she really wants.


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