# 14 wk GSD is very difficult. Thoughts?



## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Hi GSD community. I need your input.

I am wondering if I should re-home our beloved GSD. I worry I am not the right owner for him and his potential. I knew going in he is a high drive breed and would require a lot of activity and attention. I had NO IDEA he would require hours upon hours of it. Because he does require so much interaction, he is quickly becoming a NIGHTMARE because I do not have that many hours to devote to him each day. He now whines constantly. When I do bring him out he is out of control, so I spend more time correcting and sending him back to his kennel to cool down than we do anything else. Forget training or playing. He is too wound up to even consider it. He'll calm in the kennel, but as soon as the door opens, he is off to the races again.

Here is the thing: I do not have 3-4 hours during the day to work with him. I have three kids. I work. I am not home the better part of the weekdays. We play/train a bit in the mornings. And again at lunch. And, then when I get home around 5pm, I try to bring him out until bedtime, but it is impossible. IMPOSSIBLE. I have to be so on top of him and so focused on his every move even when he's on the leash that I cannot do anything else - not even for a second. Each night is ending in me being very frustrated and angry and him not getting what he needs.

He is a sweet dog. He is not vicious or mean spirited in any way, but he is very, VERY spirited. In two weeks he will have his final shots, so this will allow much more freedom. BUT, even then he will require constant watching and correcting. 

He eats EVERYTHING in sight. Literally, EVERY. THING. If he can pick it up with his mouth, it is fair game. Thankfully, he will let me pull it out of his mouth, but he refuses to "drop it", so I always have to go digging for it. We spend most of our outside time fighting this particular battle.

He plays too harsh, so my old dog won't even give him the time of day at this point. Zen takes chunks of his fur as he bites at him. Our old guy yelps and cries and Zen doesn't think twice about it. And, forget the "leave it" command when it comes to this. He pretends to not hear it. We have to physically remove him and now we have to separate them because our old guy is terrified of him. I worry how he'll be with other dogs. 

He is the classic GSD "land shark", so we are constantly saying "no bite". Constantly. Now my kids will no longer play with him because he's drawn blood one too many times. My youngest is afraid of him now. Ugh.

So, our old dog won't deal with him. My kids won't play with him. And, even I am so frustrated, I no longer enjoy playing with him. He literally is zero fun to be around. 

We had our trainer come out and she confirmed he is higher drive than average, so he is and will require more than average stimulation. He starts puppy training on March 17th. So, we are going to ride it out until then. But, I am admittedly worried that we may not be the right home for him. Any advice or input?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Your puppy is very bored, not getting nearly enough interaction and excersise and you are mad at him all the time. So the only time he gets interaction from you is when he is in trouble. No wonder he is constantly into things. That's what you have taught him. 

Regime him. Call the breeder, say you made a mistake and let the breeder place with a family who has the time to raise a puppy. 

Sorry. This is not a healthy situation for you or the puppy.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Your puppy is very bored, not getting nearly enough interaction and excersise and you are mad at him all the time. So the only time he gets interaction from you is when he is in trouble. No wonder he is constantly into things. That's what you have taught him.
> 
> Regime him. Call the breeder, say you made a mistake and let the breeder place with a family who has the time to raise a puppy.
> 
> Sorry. *This is not a healthy situation for you or the puppy.*


Agree with gsdsar.

German Shepherds are a lot of work and if you don't have the time for training a puppy properly please do the pup a favor and return him to his breeder (as soon as possible) or you could be facing a nightmare down the road.


BTW, keep the old dog separated from your pup. It is not fair to him.


Wishing you luck
Moms


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

He cannot go back to the breeder. And, yes, he is clearly bored. And, yes, the trainer said he his higher drive than average. These are all things we know. We have raised several puppies. None have had this level of need. 

So, are you saying ONLY people than can work with a GSD's 4-5 hours during the day should have a GSD? There isn't any other solution other than just giving up? No one that buys a GSD works full time or has children, as well?

Other t


gsdsar said:


> Your puppy is very bored, not getting nearly enough interaction and excersise and you are mad at him all the time. So the only time he gets interaction from you is when he is in trouble. No wonder he is constantly into things. That's what you have taught him.
> 
> Regime him. Call the breeder, say you made a mistake and let the breeder place with a family who has the time to raise a puppy.
> 
> Sorry. This is not a healthy situation for you or the puppy.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Yes, we do separate them now. Have been for a couple of weeks. Bummer situation. 



Momto2GSDs said:


> Agree with gsdsar.
> 
> German Shepherds are a lot of work and if you don't have the time for training a puppy properly please do the pup a favor and return him to his breeder (as soon as possible) or you could be facing a nightmare down the road.
> 
> ...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A lot of people think they know what high-drive/high-energy looks like, but not really, as you have found out. Some puppies might be calmer and more mellow and be a better fit for your situation, but I agree with the others: Not this one. 

Sounds like a bored puppy that spends WAY too much time in his crate. There are ways to work WITH the drives and energy of such a puppy to mold him and develop him into the perfect dog you want, but it still requires time and energy, and experience. 

You need to find a breeder that matches puppies to the owners. Such a breeder would not have sent you home (or allowed you to pick), a whirlwind pup, but would have matched you with a quiet one that likes to sleep a lot. 

I don't think that spending 2 or 3 hours of interaction a day with a pup is unreasonable. Especially for a working-breed puppy that is hard-wired to explore and interact with everything. I think expecting such a pup to just happily entertain themselves and stay out of trouble for hours while you go on with your daily routine is not going to work.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

We play/train 45 minutes to an hour in the morning. He goes out mid-morning to potty, a quick walk, and cuddles for a few. Another hour of play/train at lunch. Again, mid-afternoon for potty, quick walk and more cuddles. And, then I take them out around 5/530 at night and was trying to keep him out until 9 o'clock to play/train and spend time together. It still doesn't appear to be enough. We have toys. We run around. Play fetch. Tug-o-war. Train simple commands (all nailed down). What is going wrong? 



Castlemaid said:


> A lot of people think they know what high-drive/high-energy looks like, but not really, as you have found out. Some puppies might be calmer and more mellow and be a better fit for your situation, but I agree with the others: Not this one.
> 
> Sounds like a bored puppy that spends WAY too much time in his crate. There are ways to work WITH the drives and energy of such a puppy to mold him and develop him into the perfect dog you want, but it still requires time and energy, and experience.
> 
> ...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And in between all that time? Though might not be anything going wrong - you are putting in a lot of time. This could be just a bad match - this pup may just need more exercise, and a more experienced handler who knows how to handle and direct this kind of crazy energy, and appreciates such a dog. 

I had a rescue dog years ago that was absolutely exhausting: her crazy energy and lack-of self-control, and over-the-top play was completely overwhelming and terrifying at the same time. I got involved in formal obedience, fun agility, tracking courses, then IPO/Schutzhund to direct that energy into positive behaviours, and to learn how to handle such a dog. I had the time to devote to her, and she turned into a great dog that I miss dearly. Now, with what I know and learned, I'm_ embarrassed_ to admit that at one time I could not handle her and found her too much dog, that she scared me. Now, if I had a dog like her, I would find her somewhat tame and lacking drive for what I am looking for in a dog. 

Don't blame yourself - as I said, and as you mention, this is just a poor match. Unless you want to seriously get involved in training and pursuing various dog-sport venues to give this pup proper outlets for his energy, and for you to learn about working with such a dog, continuing on is just going to cause frustrations for all involved. 

And if you think your pup is trouble now, wait until he get bigger and older, and more frustrated!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is also possible that your pup is just wired wrong. I've seen dogs (both pure-bred GSDs and mutts) that were always wired to max, and could not settle, no matter how much exercise they got. If you have to swim your dog for _3 hours_ before an obedience class so the dog can settle enough to focus, or that a 2 1/2 hour leash walk still had the dog screaming in frustration and running around in circles afterwards, unable to settle down, these are nerve issues. (And I used to think my rescue was high-energy and couldn't settle, Ha!) - these dogs did awesome in Obedience and other sport venues, but honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to live with a dog like that.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Zen’s Mom: I am not trying to be rude here. 

Between a job, kids, meals and lunches to make, Homework for kids, activities to go to for kids or yourself…………You have to be stressed adding the needs of a puppy to your list!

Just read the list you gave us. 

I worry I am not the right owner for him and his potential.

I knew going in he is a high drive breed and would require a lot of activity and attention. More than you expected or were prepared for.

I do not have that many hours to devote to him each day.

I spend more time correcting and sending him back to his kennel to cool down than we do anything else. This is also frustrating for the puppy!

Forget training or playing.

I do not have 3-4 hours during the day to work with him. 

I have three kids. I just came back from watching my 3 grandchildren for 4 days and I’m exhausted!

I work. 

I am not home the better part of the weekdays.

We play/train a bit in the mornings. And again at lunch. And, then when I get home around 5pm, I try to bring him out until bedtime. That sounds like he is only out of his crate several times per day and some of those times are very short!

I have to be so on top of him and so focused on his every move even when he's on the leash that I cannot do anything else - not even for a second. I compare this to watching a little one who is crawling…..you must watch them ALL the time.

Each night is ending in me being very frustrated and angry and him not getting what he needs. Because you have SO many other things on your plate!

BUT, even then he will require constant watching (yes….he’s only 14 weeks old) and correcting.

We spend most of our outside time fighting this particular battle.

He plays too harsh All the ones I’ve had and known DO play hard.

we are constantly saying "no bite". Constantly. 

Now my kids will no longer play with him because he's drawn blood one too many times. Yes, Land Shark…..is exactly what a GSD IS at this stage. 

My youngest is afraid of him now. It could leave a “bad” lifelong impression for your children!


*even I am so frustrated, I no longer enjoy playing with him. He literally is zero fun to be around.*

We had our trainer come out and she confirmed he is higher drive than average, so he is and *will require more than average stimulation. *Do you have that time?????



*WHY can’t he go back to the breeder?*



I am truly sorry for your situation but as Castlemaid said, this is not a good match.





Moms


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

Hard to say for sure without seeing it, but honestly... a 14 week old puppy should not need hours and hours of exercise. Not even a high drive puppy. I've had several. I'm guessing, but either the exercise is largely physical, or the puppy has not been taught how to settle, or a bit of both. Puppies and dogs need mental stimulation as well as physical. Physical exercise just takes more and more to wear them out.

Given the way you describe his day, it also sounds like maybe he's been accidentally taught that time with the humans = go go go, so that is his expectation and he hasn't learned how to settle when he's out with the family. Puppies are just like toddlers and easily get overstimulated and over-tired, which leads to increasingly naughty behavior, basically throwing a tantrum in puppy form.

Rehoming is probably good idea, but if you wish to keep this puppy, I wouldn't wait three more weeks to start training. There is a lot you can do at home and it sounds like he needs the mental stimulation. And waiting just gives him more time to practice bad habits.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I didn't read every post but how about a picture of the little Tasmanian devil.


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## cccollinnn (Nov 1, 2016)

I understand this feeling...like what have you gotten yourself into? Can you do this? At 14 weeks for a first time GSD owner that is to be expected. As puppies they are not hard to train but yes you MUST be on top of them constantly. You just have to make it a way of life for now, if you're serious about keeping him. Right now he is in that land shark phase & it is going to seem like it's never going to end. It will & your kids will not be afraid of him. Just keep teaching 'leave it' & keep an eye on what he gets into so you can get things out of his mouth asap. Maybe focus much of your training sessions on 'leave it'. I found a good way was feeding him out of my hand & then closing my fist & saying 'leave it' as he tries to get to the food, once he lifted off even a little, I'd give his marker & open my hand again. Keep him separated from your other dog for now. I did feel that taking away his free roam if he did something really wrong or didn't listen definitely worked. Sounds like you're doing that. This doesn't mean put him in his crate & leave him there for a while, a couples minutes should suffice. 3-4 hours of real exercise is way too much for a 14 week old GSD. What exactly are you doing? Training always helps burning mental energy but since my GSD was 8 weeks I had him off leash at a field (I could always chase him down if need be) & we'd play with a soccer ball, football, tennis ball. Anywhere close to an hour of that & he was wiped out. At 14 weeks unless you are a very good runner, I would get a very long leash & keep him around you until his recall gets good. Maybe this would be a good way to get your kids to bond with him. 

My girlfriend & I also work full time & must crate our dog during the day. We make an effort to carve out at hour or so a day where he does all-out activity like running full speed after a ball, & mental training. That is usually enough to keep him happy. On the weekends we put in more like an hour at the dog park & then another 30 mins at a field later in the day. He is absolutely wiped out after that. 

Hope you can keep him & train him, it will pay off. If not, I hope you can find a home that can handle him.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

ZentheGSD said:


> Hi GSD community. I need your input.
> 
> I am wondering if I should re-home our beloved GSD. I worry I am not the right owner for him and his potential. I knew going in he is a high drive breed and would require a lot of activity and attention. I had NO IDEA he would require hours upon hours of it. *Because he does require so much interaction, he is quickly becoming a NIGHTMARE* because I do not have that many hours to devote to him each day. He now whines constantly. When I do bring him out he is out of control, so I spend more time correcting and sending him back to his kennel to cool down than we do anything else. Forget training or playing. He is too wound up to even consider it. He'll calm in the kennel, but as soon as the door opens, he is off to the races again.
> 
> ...


You really do not sound happy at all.

I agree with Castlemaid, this particular puppy does not seem to be a good match for you, your family, your lifestyle. 

If this puppy is making your daily life worse, and you are not excited about a future with this dog, he may be a better match for someone else.

One person's idea of "high energy" is not the same as someone else's. Some lifestyles are not compatible with any German Shepherd. Some German Shepherds are not compatible with _certain _lifestyles but would thrive in a different environment.

You sound as if you and your children would be relieved and happier if Zen is gone. If that is the case, and his breeder is not in the picture, there are helpful people on this forum located all over the country who may be able to help you network and work on finding him a suitable home. Just let us know - there are people here who can help.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Is he working or show line? Do you have a pedigree?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Honestly it sounds to me like maybe you are not just living with the pup? Is he in the crate and then out for these go-go-go adventures then back in the crate? Too much time in confinement is sort of creating a self fulfilling prophecy?

I'd tether him to me and just make him be a part of the family. If we are all sitting around doing something, you get a chew toy and sit around with us (on a leash, so you can prevent him from biting your kids)

My pup was a mad man when he woke up in the morning, earning him the nickname Wreck It Ralph. I'd have some wreck it games ready for him including breakfast out of a treat dispensing toy which he LOVED smashing around his x pen. Once he got it out of his system he became a normal puppy 

He also had x pens for playing in the middle of the living room so he felt a part of but could not get into any mischief if I was unable to be one on one with him, he had a whole mess of toys and chewies in there. And he learned to play and chew nicely by himself sometimes. I play with him plenty but I love that from a young age he was able to entertain himself appropriately.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi ZentheGSD, I don't really have any advice to give, but just wanted to wish you good luck. I hope you find a solution, whether that is enrolling in a good class with an experienced trainer or finding your pup a great new home. 

I'm just a GSD owner, not a trainer or a breeder, but without actually seeing the pup and you interact it's hard to gauge how high your puppy's drives are. He certainly sounds like he is on the higher energy side. I know my first GSD was the hardest to raise, in part, I think, because I did not know what to expect. The others have seemed easier--because I learned so much from the first one probably. 

If you provide your pup with structure, consistency, and boundaries, the first year is probably the hardest. My pups always have started to calm down around 1-2 years. Of course, different dogs mature at different rates. And a 80-lb one-year-old that has not had much training and is used to getting his own way is going to make life very difficult for everyone--(not saying that you are on this path, it sounds like you are doing lots of good things with your pup). 

I have two GSDs (the oldest is 2 years and the other is about 10-11 months). I also have a 18-month-old son and another due in April. I worked full-time until mid-February when I switched to part time. I work 12-hour weekend nights and hubby works weekdays, so someone is almost always home. I don't think the dogs get as much attention on the days I work, however. We haven't had any major problems juggling the kids and dogs. When I am home, the dogs are always with me. I'll give them attention, or a pat here and there, a command or two, but I don't spend 3-4 concentrated hours a day entertaining or exercising them...more like an hour to two hours, some days less, some days more, depending on our schedule. 

I don't think my dogs are high-drive, more medium, but here are some things that have helped us. 

1.) Fencing the backyard. If the dogs get hyper I can just go outside and toss the ball around for 10-15 minutes and that usually calms them down. 

2.) Lots of training. GSD #1 joined our family about the same time as I got pregnant with my son. We started enrolling in puppy classes when Asher was around 10 weeks old--I took a risk by not waiting until his shots were complete, but I felt it was a calculated risk. I wanted to have lots of training in place before we had a newborn. Both Asher and Levi went through classes for their first 1-2 years. My son was around 1-year-old when we got Levi. Hubby and I make it a date night, we find a babysitter, and we got to dinner before or after class. It's a fun part of our weekly routine--at least for me. Classes are a great place to work your puppy under distractions and begin to proof his commands.

3.) Incorporate chores with training. For instance, the dogs practice their sit and down-stays while I change the baby's diaper or get his breakfast ready, ect. Or we practice "leave-it" while the baby drops his food off the highchair. 

4.) My son is fascinated by the dogs, and the dogs love him, so I try to entertain them together as much as I can. When the weather is nice, I'll take one of the dogs and the baby in his stroller, and we'll go to the local greenway for walks. I do as much with the toddler and the dogs as I can. I'll take the toddler out back in his stroller and let him watch while the dogs play or while we train---he points and grins, and really seems to love watching the dogs. I don't know how old your kids are, but when your puppy learns to control his biting, maybe they can participate in some of his training--should you decide to keep him. There are lots of threads on puppy biting on this site if you do a search. 

This is all I can think of right now, but I've got to get offline for a while. I'm not a trainer or an expert by any means. But if you have any questions feel free to ask or PM me. No shame whatever you decide to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope you are still around. Yes, it is going to be a rough year. It sounds like you are putting a lot of time and energy into this, but maybe the very knowledgeable folks here who love the crazy, high drive, dogs, could help you find ways that exercise your dog's mind and instincts as well as his body. 

This does not mean putting in more time. It means using the time more effectively. 

When I have a higher energy pup, I know that I can't physically keep up with them. I'm a couch potato, the pup's an energizer bunny. But that doesn't mean I can't engage with him. It doesn't mean I can't find ways for him to cover a whole lot more ground than me. They can run up to 40 mph. I can walk maybe 4 miles in an hour. I can cycle 15. (Babies like this one cannot be worn out through jogging or cycling with them -- bad for the joints, etc. 

What you have to do is play games with the dog that will make him use his mind and his nose, and be rewarded with something that uses his body. Tug and fetch can be good rewards for such a dog. But the games are also rewarding. Don't worry about perfect obedience. He's a landshark now, get him lots of raw bones and keep re-directing. Immediately stop play if he uses teeth. Tell him No! then redirect to something he can bite. Teach him to be gentle. You can do this. 

It would be interesting to see a picture of your pup and maybe his pedigree. 

And again, why can he not go back to the breeder?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you don't want him, release him to a rescue right away. He sounds like a typical high drive, high energy puppy. If you want to keep him, there is a lot you can do. I suggest you find a good trainer and have an expert evaluate the dog and teach you exactly how to interact with the dog. It's possible your children are creating a high energy environment that agitates the dog. A professional can show you how to avoid amping up the dog, how to wear him out and how to do basic early training. Where generally are you located? We can help you find a good trainer.

I see here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/682833-help.html#post8315617 that you have a trainer. Why aren't you working on this with the trainer? Did you follow the suggestions you got a month ago?


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## squerly (Aug 3, 2008)

Hello ZenTheGSD and welcome to the forum. I have one that is about the same age, born on November 20th of last year. He is a handful and can be very trying that's for sure. But my wife and I are retired and we live on acreage so we have both the time and space to tire our pup out. And he has the benefit of an older brother (7 years old) who teaches him what he can/and can't get away with. Big brother gives us lots of help both in the exercise department as well as in teaching the little guy some manners. 

Can you give us some background on you pup? Is he America Show Line or German Working Line? Perhaps a little info on the breeder? Should you decide to rehome there is always a chance that someone on this forum might be interested but you need to give us some info. Also, where are you located? Perhaps someone is already in your area and the rehoming might go easier than you expect.


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## squerly (Aug 3, 2008)

Sorry LoveShepherds, looks like you posted while I was typing. Didn't realize the OP had posted previously.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

squerly said:


> Sorry LoveShepherds, looks like you posted while I was typing. Didn't realize the OP had posted previously.


You don't have to apologize. I found the previous thread and edited it into my post later.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

why did you choose the breeder , this litter , this pup?

was there any misrepresentation ?

I would be interested in the pedigree --- you can PM me .

a little irony in the name --- NOT" Zen"


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## brookwoodgirl (May 5, 2016)

I have a just turned nine month old puppy. I don't consider him particularly high drive, (compared to some high drive shepherds whom I've seen literally bouncing off the walls at obedience classes) but he is high enough for me or maybe a hair more. At 14 weeks he definitely was a land shark, and I used up a lot of band-aids. I have a crate, but most of the time he was free and it was a constant struggle to keep him from putting everything and anything in his mouth - he had a particular affinity for wires of any kind. 

First, I commiserate with you. No matter how much you love puppies and dogs, caring for a singleton puppy is exhausting on top of exhausting. It is not your fault that you are despairing a little. You would be superhuman if you were not, just a bit. Nor is it a reflection on your pup that he is a landshark. That's what they are at that age.

Your exercise schedule does not sound inadequate. You seem to be making an determined effort to give this pup attention, exercise and affection. 

Now for suggestions:
A food cube or a food ball is useful for making a pup work for his food, keeping him engaged without risking over feeding him.

I also found hooves and cow tracheas, and himalayan cheese bones keep a puppy busy without over feeding him. 

A flirt pole is also useful - you can make one out of string, a toy and a long stick. 

One thing a breeder told me about that I was probably a bit guilty of and you too, is to distinguish yourself from a litter mate, and to distinguish your house furnishings from toys. As she put it, if a dog has too many toys, then everything in the house is regarded as a toy. If you play with the pup and never require it to settle and discipline itself, you become a littermate, fair game to be jumped on, tussled with and never respected. Watch the mom with her litter at this age - when they bug her, she lets them know in no uncertain terms to knock it off. Otherwise they would run roughshod right over her, just as your pup may be doing to you. Sometimes you have to be firm with a pup - I've been known to give a growl or two myself.

Nothing tires out a puppy like another puppy, and you might find that there are other puppy owners near you who are just as desperate to find a puppy playmate, even if they are retired and home with with singleton pup. When pups are chasing each other around, they are not hassling you. You should check out trainers, puppy classes, the local humane society/SPCA who might offer puppy classes to find another pup owner nearby who would be willing to get together with your pup. An afternoon two or three times a week with another puppy, or puppy day care, can make for a more manageable pup the rest of the time. 

My pup did (and still) gets revved up again late at night (11 or so) and I find myself (still) taking the pup outside for a late night ball tossing session to wear out energy. 

It is exhausting, but it can help to remember "this too shall pass".


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

puppy class can be a great place to meet puppies/people for future playdates....


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

From your post I would say that you have to ask yourself if you are willing to change your lifestyle to accommodate the needs of this puppy. A high drive dog is smart and endearing but only after a lot of work, time and lifestyle changes.

My dutch shepherd was what I thought was a nightmare puppy. While he needed more mental and physical stimulation than a typical GSD, what he really needed was for me to rise to the occasion in terms of handler and training skills. In the end I invested a lot of time and money increasing my skills so that I could work with this dog. He was NOT a beginner dog. But it meant a lifestyle change, that is what I'm trying to emphasize. My guy NEEDS to work and my life had to change to provide him this in consistent ways.. by that I mean pretty intensively consistent. I don't think I ever worked him 3-4 hours a day but lots of exercise, lots of training, and lots of mental stimulation. I had planned to do search and rescue before I got him but I do think now that without my commitment to SAR (which is a lifestyle choice to the tune of $5000K a year and 5-7000 miles driven per year and untold hours training and on searches) that he would have been a very very difficult pet. At 3.5 years old, he is an awesome awesome partner. But that came at a price and I was willing to pay that price. While he is a great dog with good obedience and easy for me to live with... he is still complicated and I just can't turn him over to anyone. If I leave town, I have a difficult time finding someone who can handle him. 

If given your pup's energy and needs and given that I assume your priority is raising wonderful children, you may have to consider rehoming and trying a dog with less intensive needs. Do what is right for your kids and right for the dog.

Best,
Karin


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, if you decide to give up, please know that breed rescues in any community will have heard this story more times than you can possibly imagine. Every pup our rescue has ever rehomed had a story like this -- and an exasperated owner who was frazzled to a breaking point by the land sharkery. If you have to rehome, do it while he's still young and cute, before he becomes an awkward adolescent with the same-out-of-control behavior in a much bigger body. Some rescues even have "specialist foster homes" for puppies -- often with a patient but assertive adult dog in the home who really likes puppies AND who will help teach the puppy some manners (a HUGE help with these little miscreants).

Good rescues tend to have waiting lists of good, experienced, approved adopters who want very young dogs and know what they're getting into with a puppy or adolescent. 

Working through a good breed rescue will create safety net in case a placement doesn't work (in case he _is _wired in a way requiring some very special sort of owner). Your breeder should have been a safety net for this pup. EVERY dog deserves a safety net -- if the breeder isn't going to be that for this dog, rehoming through a rescue gets him one.


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## Tiptx4 (Feb 27, 2017)

Puppies are like kids as they require a lot of our time and all have their unruly stages that they go thru. There seemed like there wouldn't be a day go by if he didn't draw blood on me from his biting. I have seen our handsome boy start to mature right before our eyes as I'm so glad I picked this breed over any other breed out there.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Thank you for the many helpful posts everyone. I'm in touch with a trainer that specializes in GSD's. We're working on tools for me to use to better direct his energy and increase my handling skills. We're also testing him to get a better idea of where he lands on the drive spectrum and if there's any concerns. 

We had a really good day today, so I'm very hopeful. We really love this dog, we just weren't as equipped to handle him as I thought. Work in progress.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

ZentheGSD said:


> Thank you for the many helpful posts everyone. I'm in touch with a trainer that specializes in GSD's. We're working on tools for me to use to better direct his energy and increase my handling skills. We're also testing him to get a better idea of where he lands on the drive spectrum and if there's any concerns.
> 
> We had a really good day today, so I'm very hopeful. We really love this dog, we just weren't as equipped to handle him as I thought. Work in progress.


This is great news! Good Luck! I hope you guys continue to have more good days than bad. It may be lots of hard work and lots of frustration, but you CAN help this put become the dream dog you wanted!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not sure about working line puppies. And I am not sure what line your pup is. I have West German Show Line puppies, and the difficult period usually improves exponentially rather than linearly. So, if at 14 weeks you are very near a 10 in difficulty, it hangs there for a little and then you reach a point, and it gets a whole lot better -- e^(-t/tou). 

Different puppies or different handlers or both have different periods that are especially difficult. Some have trouble in the land-shark phase. Others tear there hair out in the teenage period between puppyhood and adulthood, sexual maturity. Some have trouble at 4-5 months when the puppy license goes away, and strangers -- dogs or humans or both become scary. If you can get up to 18 months old, you'll probably make it. But for most people, I suggest getting them into puppy classes (where puppies are on leash and owners are respectful), and just keep going, signing up for the next age-appropriate class, and the next, and the next for the first year. Then it doesn't hurt to do something new with them, agility, nosework, something, anything that will keep him moving forward, keep him working alongside other dogs working with their owners. With a good foundation in the first year, you can take some weeks off, or a session off, or go through other training for a while and come back to group sessions as refreshers. 

None of it is necessary of course. It just depends on what you want for your dog. I find that regular group classes through the first year, makes it easier for dogs to behave in situations where there are other dogs, vets, camping, walks. I think people have too high of expectations for that first obedience course, and then they stop too soon, either giving up, or feeling it unnecessary. 5 months later the dog is a holy terror in the teenager stage. While other folks let the group participation keep them and their dog on track, and maybe their dog just has an off class, and the next week he is right back on track. 

People with a busy household with kids and such, may argue that there just isn't time for dog classes. I would argue that for those people it is twice as important to make the time. A well-mannered dog is a pleasure to live with, but they aren't born that way, and it is no accident. With children you have neighbor kids, and friends, and you cannot have an unruly, poorly socialized or reactive dog. Kids shouldn't have to grow up, not allowing friends over, or with everyone afraid of the dog. Or, you can look at your weekly class time as your ME-time, your exercise time, your no-kids time, that hour each week that you can take a break and leave the kids to the husband and go have fun with the dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

OP where are you located? I know you said you already had a trainer experienced in GSD's, but just curious. 

As some others have mentioned, it's not always about how much time you spend with the puppy, but what you do with that time that matters. Crating/Kenneling can be both good and bad. You get frustrated because he's a ball of energy, so you put him up to recharge his batteries so to speak. So naturally he's going to be crazy again when he comes back out. You have to explain to him once he's out what is expected. Also keep in mind, that mental exercise will wear him out much faster than physical exercise. The way I look at it is, if they have energy to run around my house, then they have energy to train.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

Hoping you get everything worked out! GSD puppies are a handful at times, and it's not a breed that fits into everyone's lifestyle. But in my experience thus far if you are willing to put in the effort, you absolutely CAN have great results. These dogs like to learn and enjoy 'having a job'. Best of luck!


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

We laugh about the name we gave him all the time! LOL 




carmspack said:


> why did you choose the breeder , this litter , this pup?
> 
> was there any misrepresentation ?
> 
> ...


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Our guy was born November 21. He is German working line. From what we can gather I just wasn't doing a good enough job stimulating him mentally. The games that I chose were beneath his ability so we're working on more complex scenarios. 



squerly said:


> Hello ZenTheGSD and welcome to the forum. I have one that is about the same age, born on November 20th of last year. He is a handful and can be very trying that's for sure. But my wife and I are retired and we live on acreage so we have both the time and space to tire our pup out. And he has the benefit of an older brother (7 years old) who teaches him what he can/and can't get away with. Big brother gives us lots of help both in the exercise department as well as in teaching the little guy some manners.
> 
> Can you give us some background on you pup? Is he America Show Line or German Working Line? Perhaps a little info on the breeder? Should you decide to rehome there is always a chance that someone on this forum might be interested but you need to give us some info. Also, where are you located? Perhaps someone is already in your area and the rehoming might go easier than you expect.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

He's a sable. This was a couple days ago. Finally drying out here, so we were enjoying some much needed sunshine. 



cdwoodcox said:


> I didn't read every post but how about a picture of the little Tasmanian devil.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Honestly, I think you're right. We use all our together time as specific time for him, so I'm not training him to simply hang out. And, while I do need to kick up the mental stimulation for him, this may have been our biggest issue. So, I bought a better lead with more give and have him follow me around whenever I'm home. It appears to be working very well. Thank you for mentioning this! 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Honestly it sounds to me like maybe you are not just living with the pup? Is he in the crate and then out for these go-go-go adventures then back in the crate? Too much time in confinement is sort of creating a self fulfilling prophecy?
> 
> I'd tether him to me and just make him be a part of the family. If we are all sitting around doing something, you get a chew toy and sit around with us (on a leash, so you can prevent him from biting your kids)
> 
> ...


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

Hang in there. I remember being overseas and my wife calling me, in tears, with an almost identical story to yours. A quick call to our breeder, Randy Tyson, brought the waterworks to an end and she took Zeus for a week, then paired my wife up with a wonderful trainer, and all was well 8 days later.

Zeus turned out to go from Land Shark to sweetest dog we could have imagined within a few months of structured training sessions, lots of mental games, and ended up being a very well trained and capable dog.

As I'm getting ready to meet my new pup on Saturday, your thread was a great reminder of the "holysmokeswhatwerewethinkinggettingthisfurshark" phase. The people on this board will help all of us through some seriously crazy times and just provide a wonderful community for those of us who really don't know much about dogs but are trainable 

Post some pics of Zen and you training when you get a chance. Would love to see what he looks like!


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

I wasn't prepared for the extent of the landsharking when I brought Mayzie home as a puppy and it is very frustrating when you try all of the 'no bite' techniques and NOTHING Works. But once her puppy teeth fell out and she got her big dog teeth it was magically so much better and she turned out to be very careful and gentle with her mouth and I quickly forgot all the days of her needle teeth drawing blood  So there may be an end in sight.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, cute pup! Mine was also born November 21st. Good luck with him.


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## Stormywx (Apr 26, 2015)

My puppy was born in November also... I'm struggling with the biting also. I'm trying to be able to pet him and touch his face without him going for my hands and arms... its a chore to even get a slip leash over his head without him going for it and me... I'm practicing holding a treat and having him put his head through the slip for the treat.... works fine until there is no treat.... I was so glad to read the post that this all came to an end when the big teeth came in ....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stormywx said:


> My puppy was born in November also... I'm struggling with the biting also. I'm trying to be able to pet him and touch his face without him going for my hands and arms... its a chore to even get a slip leash over his head without him going for it and me... I'm practicing holding a treat and having him put his head through the slip for the treat.... works fine until there is no treat.... I was so glad to read the post that this all came to an end when the big teeth came in ....


Now that there young pup looks like a German Show line, could be wrong. And I was just going to leave the OP to the tender mercies of the working line crowd. 

Personally, I would not bribe the dog to put a collar/lead on him. If a dog is trying to chew on me, I am not going to give him a treat. I am not a fan of alpha-dominance crap, and I am not really a NothingInLifeIsFree (NILIF)person, but some dogs do need some no-nonsense type handling. IF you are having trouble with a 14 week old puppy, you need help. Sign up for an obedience class -- NOT puppy kindergarten unless it does not include puppy free-for-alls. You need someone to show you how to let your puppy know what is and what is not acceptable without physically punishing the dog. It requires discipline. The human needs discipline in their command tone, their body language, their timing, their following through every single time, their not repeating commands, their giving commands only if they can immediately enforce them. It takes a bit of practice. 

I have heard of using treats to cut toenails. Cut a nail, give a treat. My Good lord, with 270 toenails to do, it will take 3 days to do toenails. That's insane. And, frankly, I think it is harder on dogs to draw it out. Knock it OFF! I will cut your nails, and that is the end to it. Do the nails quickly, and then say, "All done, good boy!" The job is done in 2-3 minutes instead of 15 minutes. Maybe the dog got a stiff, "NO!" or "Knock it Off!" and maybe a scruff of the neck, but the dog isn't shivering and cringing when you pull out the clippers. The dog isn't getting 18 treats either. It draws something that can be unpleasant out, the whole time the dog is picking up vibes on how uneasy you are, and it will freak out ANY dog. Just tell him to cut it out, and snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, now the back ones, snip, snip, snip, snip. And if you were fortunate to get your dog as a baby puppy, the nails become little hooks, and you rarely hit a quick if you just snip the hook off. Do that once a week for three weeks, and your dog isn't going to have a problem with getting his toe nails clipped. 

Using a treat to get a collar on the dog? It's 14 weeks old, a baby. It weighs, what 25 pounds? If you can't handle this baby, what are you going to do when he is 75 pounds and still chewing on your arm when you go to put its collar on? You need to go to a real trainer and show them what you are doing and have them help you give the dog a reason to have confidence in you.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

ZentheGSD said:


> He's a sable. This was a couple days ago. Finally drying out here, so we were enjoying some much needed sunshine.


He is a good looking boy. I think if you can find an activity that fits him everyone enjoys then youll eventually have a dog that most would love to call theirs. 
I never had any interest in doing IPO until I got my female Athena. Her drives and desire to bite something pushed me into it. We love it. Again I didn't read all the posts. Sorry if this has been said already. .


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I just watched the movie "Marley and me "about a crazy Labrador pup and his family. I do have a headache from crying- a great movie though. Time does fly though it truly does. The puppy phase goes by so fast and is not ever lasting even though at times it may seem like it. Pups sure do keep you on your toes and always learning- so worth it.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Our trainer starts with us March 17. She was adamant he have his 16 week shots before starting. I'm thinking I probably should have found someone that would start sooner, so
I'm looking. 

We're still dealing with some serious land shark business and have to keep our old dog away from him, but I'm hopeful some good training will help. He really is a great dog with so much potential. I just have much to learn still. 

Now, we're dealing with a hygroma. UGH. 



DorianGrayFFM said:


> Hang in there. I remember being overseas and my wife calling me, in tears, with an almost identical story to yours. A quick call to our breeder, Randy Tyson, brought the waterworks to an end and she took Zeus for a week, then paired my wife up with a wonderful trainer, and all was well 8 days later.
> 
> Zeus turned out to go from Land Shark to sweetest dog we could have imagined within a few months of structured training sessions, lots of mental games, and ended up being a very well trained and capable dog.
> 
> ...


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Thank you!! He starts training next week, so we should know more soon. He strikes me as a good candidate for agility. So we'll see! 

He might be a good candidate for Schutzhund, too. The trainer mentioned that. We're going to have him assessed so we can train him based on his needs. 



cdwoodcox said:


> ZentheGSD said:
> 
> 
> > He's a sable. This was a couple days ago. Finally drying out here, so we were enjoying some much needed sunshine.
> ...


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

I hope you're right! Those darn puppy teeth are dangerous! He tore my 4th pair of pants today. Lol



MayzieGSD said:


> I wasn't prepared for the extent of the landsharking when I brought Mayzie home as a puppy and it is very frustrating when you try all of the 'no bite' techniques and NOTHING Works. But once her puppy teeth fell out and she got her big dog teeth it was magically so much better and she turned out to be very careful and gentle with her mouth and I quickly forgot all the days of her needle teeth drawing blood
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Oh yeah, same here. It's a battle. Lol

We try not to use a lot of treats, but there are just some scenarios when I need them. One being getting him to spit out the junk he picks up. It works. Much better than chasing him down and trying to dig it out. Demands never work! We try to mix it up with mega praise so he doesn't get a treat every time. SOmetimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Work in progress! 



Stormywx said:


> My puppy was born in November also... I'm struggling with the biting also. I'm trying to be able to pet him and touch his face without him going for my hands and arms... its a chore to even get a slip leash over his head without him going for it and me... I'm practicing holding a treat and having him put his head through the slip for the treat.... works fine until there is no treat.... I was so glad to read the post that this all came to an end when the big teeth came in ....


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

That's what I'm thinking. A couple of years of very dedicated and focused work and I think we'll have an amazing family companion. 



Jenny720 said:


> I just watched the movie "Marley and me "about a crazy Labrador pup and his family. I do have a headache from crying- a great movie though. Time does fly though it truly does. The puppy phase goes by so fast and is not ever lasting even though at times it may seem like it. Pups sure do keep you on your toes and always learning- so worth it.


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## ZentheGSD (Jan 23, 2017)

Thank you!! ??



selzer said:


> LOL, cute pup! Mine was also born November 21st. Good luck with him.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

ZentheGSD said:


> That's what I'm thinking. A couple of years of very dedicated and focused work and I think we'll have an amazing family companion.


I was in your shoes, I was literally 5 minutes away from re-homing a pup and I changed my mind at the last minute. It ALWAYS gets better. Been there, done that. It won't take 2 years, it always took me about 1 year to get the pup in good behavior. The biting stops at around 6 months. What you're going through, everyone here has gone through, and we stuck with them and they became joys. I will make one important recommendation for you; exercise pen. It's a life saver, put them in the ex-pen, fill it up with a bunch of toys and plastic bottles and let them go to town in there. It gives them something to do while you can relax. As far as the biting goes, just always carry a soft chew toy with you, when he bites you say no, give him the toy, and when he bites it give a high pitched "yes"!
Watch these vids










And then buy this

https://www.chewy.com/midwest-exercise-pen-step-thru-door/dp/45380

I say get at least the 42 inch model.

Good luck and stick with it!


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