# More problems with our new raw diet



## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Some of you may have read my post last week regarding my puppy, Miikka, pooping out and entire chicken bone. I panicked and called the vet (as well as posting on this forum). My vet called me back later that day and told me to stop with the raw diet immediately and go back to kibble. Well, I didn’t stop the raw food because many of the good folks on this forum said it was relatively normal. Basically, I was told (in this forum) pooping whole bones wasn’t a good thing but it does happen – just teach her to chew more. So, anyway, I’ve stuck with the raw diet. Against my husband’s wishes, I might add.









This afternoon, the vet calls again to see how Miikka is doing. I told her she was doing fine. Then I told her that Miikka was still on the raw diet. She got very upset with me. She said that there are all kinds of issues with feed raw food…salmonella, food poisoning, worms, etc. She went on to tell me that *I* could even get sick because I’m handling all that raw meat. She was almost begging me to stop the diet.

My vet is a very nice lady. I like her and she just loves Miikka. However, I do think the raw diet is a good thing for Miikka and I would like her to stay on it. How do I handle my vet? Do I need to start looking for a new one? 

If anything should happen to Miikka because she’s eating raw food, I’ll never be able to live it down. Between the vet and my husband I’ll be in big, big trouble!!









I guess I need reassurance that I am doing the right thing. 

Thanks everyone!
Cheryl


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

From a non-raw feeders perspective.....

Not all dogs can tolerate raw, but lots do and absolute excel on that diet. Every diet contains risks and pros and cons - LOTS of dogs get really sick eating kibble too.

So this will be a test for your vet. Hopefully you two can work through this. If it gets too bad, too stressful, too difficult, then you will most likely have to find a new vet. For now, it's an adjustment period


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Encourage your vet to research a raw diet. 

There's pros and cons with feeding any diet, and raw is no exception. 

When you break it down, BARF - Biologically Appropriate Raw Food. It's natural for a dog to eat raw meat. It's in their kibble, just not processed with other stuff to make it kibble. 
Plus, a human's digestive system is much different than a dog's. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think humans can get salmonella poisoning because it stays in our digestive systems longer because the process is slower, but in a dog, digestion is faster, so it can't 'hurt' your dog.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KonotashiCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I think humans can get salmonella poisoning because it stays in our digestive systems longer because the process is slower, but in a dog, digestion is faster, so it can't 'hurt' your dog.


It can hurt a dog, it's just *much* less likely to.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

What about if you put a packet together for your vet about RAW? Or would that just offend her? 

I don't feed RAW, but I definitely see the benefits.

However, just like Lisa said, RAW isn't for every dog. Just like Orijen isn't for every dog fr kibble feeders. I'd stick with it to make sure your dog's system does like it, but be aware that you might need to go to something else.

You could also consider a "comprimise" of a high quality kibble and RAW diet.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I wouldn't compromise because a vet didn't like the diet, but, yes, maybe if the dog ultimately can't handle all raw. But then I would feed homecooked rather than kibble.

I believe that the only way to convince vets like this is for them to see the results.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

I always liked the piece in Dr. Billinghurst's book where he talks about vets not liking raw diets - (not looking up the exact quote) - he returned with a question back - "How did dogs survive for thousands of years before kibble?".

My vet felt the same way, but just expressed his disapproval and caution about proper nutrition and salmonella for both of us. I respect him highly and know he told me that because he has likely seen problems and really believes it. Rather than thinking it was an all bad thing to do, I took it as a warning and paid attention to it. 

We have handled raw meat for ourselves all our lives. I continue the same practice for my dogs and ensure counters, utensils and hands are washed and kept clean. I ensure the meat comes home and gets packaged and straight into the freezer. 

The other caution - nutrition - is very valid. There are people who think they can just feed hamburger and all will be well. A raw diet does require some study and thought. We don't have to be crazy about it, but we certainly do need to ensure we are providing the correct nutrition. 

One suggestion that might help with both your vet and your husband would be to talk to your vet and ask about doing regular bloodwork or other testing for your puppy to keep on top of how you're doing with the diet. A baseline now - and then again at whatever interval the vet suggests (6 months or so?). Just a suggestion, but if you proposed doing this in order to help you fine-tune the diet, it might make all of you feel better.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTI wouldn't compromise because a vet didn't like the diet, but, yes, maybe if the dog ultimately can't handle all raw. But then I would feed homecooked rather than kibble.
> 
> I believe that the only way to convince vets like this is for them to see the results.


No, I agree she shouldn't comprimise for the vet, but it sounds like her husband is now digging in his heels as well....that, IMO, might be something to comprimise on if it came to that (only she knows her husband well enough to know if this is something she should consider).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Handling raw meat is a daily occurrance whether we feed our dogs raw or not. How does it get to the dinner table without handling?
Safe practices of handling food is a habit, so that shouldn't even come into your vets arguement against it. 
My vet isn't against the diet, but not willing to say she is pro-raw.
As long as we who feed it are knowledgable on balances...
When Onyx was sick a couple weeks ago, my vet was very supportive and didn't jump to the conclusion that the raw diet is what made her sick. 
Most vets would have tunnel visioned right to that, and not looked at the bigger picture.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I also agree that having an accepting vet is key. When Leyna was sick awhile ago, the vet suggested home cooking for a bit (he mentioned that he usually goes with the prescription diet but knew that I would not be something I would do). I also think that when you choose to feed raw, you have to have done the research and know that what you are feeding is the best for your dog because you will encounter many sceptics along the way. I've got "won't that make your dog agressive" (no) "what about the bones" (they are ok raw), etc. 

We ended up switching vets about the time we switched diets (for various reasons - but our new vet being more accepting of a raw diet was high on the list).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When DH was just DB (Boyfriend) I was feeding kibble. When I switched to raw he was very skeptical but the changes he saw in the dogs in just a couple weeks convinced him. 

My vets and I agree to disagree about the diet. They don't 100% support it but see that my dogs are very healthy. They even went so far as to do some research for me when Neke was failing - to see if there was something natural that would help her.









If you want you could offer to send your vet some information on the diet and websites she can visit.

Personally, if I had a vet that was THAT much against the diet I wouldn't be comfortable using them. I would wonder if ANY time I brought the dog in the vet would immediately say "It's that diet" without even looking at the dog.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Agreed...how do vets think we cook dinner? That the meat we eat mysteriously comes pre-cooked? You treat a raw diet for your dogs just as you do raw meat you handle (and then cook) for yourself. Wash your hands and the work area. Duh. 

In regard to food poisoning...I'd rather take a chance with human grade meat then whatever the crap they put in kibble that I have NO idea where it came from. Also when a dogfood company uses toxic ingredients that killed thousands of animals and only receives a slap on the wrist, whereas with human grade ingredients they have to be much more careful.

Worms? Seriously?









You might just want to ask the vet what she knows about the raw diet. She may be thinking you're feeding sub-par ingredients. I have to say, none of the food I feed my dogs looks like something I wouldn't eat myself. While I have no desire to eat turkey or cow heart or ground quail or turkey necks, the stuff I buy could be eaten by humans...well, except for the tripe!









Does she understand the ratio/variety aspect of a raw diet? I would dare to say those who correctly feed a raw diet are more in tune with their pet's digestive health--weighing everything, knowing the ratios, studying poop like it's no body's business.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I have a lot of respect for vets, but they DO NOT influance what my dog eats. 
Raw is the best for them.
Dogs eat poop for goodness sake!
They arent going to get sick from raw meat.
And as long as you wash your hands you wont get sick. I kiss my dog after he eats all the time








lol

I would stick with the raw diet. It really is the best thing for them!
Maybe you can ask the butcher to grind up the chicken you buy! That way you wont be nervous!

I buy Bravo raw chicken blend wich has the whole chicken frame ground up in it.
Heres a link just in case you wanted to check it out!

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/products/original/original_chicken.html


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: miikkasmomShe said that there are all kinds of issues with feed raw food…salmonella, food poisoning, worms, etc. She went on to tell me that *I* could even get sick because I’m handling all that raw meat. She was almost begging me to stop the diet.


I've been feeding raw for almost 10 years now. I've handled over 10,000 pounds of raw meat and never once been sick.

And that hasn't always been FRESH raw meat (I'll feed stuff that has 'gone over').

Back when I used to chop and grind stuff I couldn't tell you the number of times stuff flew up into my mouth!

The ONLY time I was concerned about handling the raw meat was when I was going through chemotherapy. During that time my DH fed the dogs.

My dogs are all raw fed. Tazer and Winnie are going on 11 and have been raw fed since they were about 2. Mauser has been raw fed since he was 8 weeks, same with Kaynya and Sasha since she came here at about 9 months.

Spike has NEVER had kibble. He was weaned right to raw.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: miikkasmomShe went on to tell me that *I* could even get sick because I’m handling all that raw meat.


I guess your Vet doesn't think you know how to wash your hands/sanitize preparation areas? 

I think many Vets are under the impression (those not familiar with RAW) that people feed their dogs junk meat/random meat/possibly roadkill. Who knows? 

Not my VET, but the people in charge of the boarding (located at the Vet's office, but run by another manager) were "concerned" with feeding RAW. (Yes, this is the same....now former....boarding facility in which they returned our dogs' items saturated in urine.) They waited until we picked up the dogs to ask us if it was "okay" that there were bones in the dogs' food and if it was "okay" that the meat was RAW. I thought, at first, if there was a question about it, why weren't we called the FIRST time they were fed there rather than wait until we picked them up (3 days...5 meals later.)


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: aubieAgreed...how do vets think we cook dinner? That the meat we eat mysteriously comes pre-cooked? You treat a raw diet for your dogs just as you do raw meat you handle (and then cook) for yourself. Wash your hands and the work area. Duh.


Ditto. I guess we must come across as imbeciles if they feel they have to remind us of these things. Also, what about sushi? That's raw mostly. I should have died already if that were the case.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I think a lot of vets really don't know much about the diet themselves, so they just throw out whatever excuses they can think of out there to steer you away from it. I haven't had one vet ever come up with a logical reason for not eating raw. Common reason's I've heard:

1. Worms
2. You'll poison you, your dog and your family with e-coli 
3. Non-quality food (don't understand the human grade quality)
4. And my all time fave: "I wouldn't want to eat raw meat, would you?"









My vet and I just don't talk about it, it's off limits and we're fine with that. If my vet was persistant about it, I'd have to say "Look, I really appreciate your input and I really like you as a vet, but if you do not quit hassling me about my decision on what I feed my dog, then I'll have to go elsewhere. I'd be more than happy to discuss what I feed, how much and when if you'd like, but this is what I'm going to feed and if you're not comfortable with it, I'll need to find a new doctor."


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: aubie
> 
> 4. And my all time fave: "I wouldn't want to eat raw meat, would you?"


Ha! That's awesome!

I wouldn't eat....grass....pig ears....







....sticks....etc. either







but, on occassion, my dogs think it's awesome gourmet.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

The worst ones I have heard are

1. "He will go insane" (????







)
2. "He will die"



ummmm okaaayyyy


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## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

Is this what you mean by insane?

I was talking to another GSD owner at Petsmart awhile back. He asked me what I fed Damian because his coat was so shiny and he looked to be in very good health. I responded with, " He is on a RAW Diet." 

Boy did I regret saying that.

"OMG! You better be careful. Your dog has the taste of blood now, he can turn on you at anytime! Also, thats expensive, what a waste of money."

I laughed. 

He then recommended me to some treats that Walmart sells. (I laughed the hardest on this one)

Here is what he said:

"These treats are great! My female loves them and you know they are very good for them. Look here, (As he pointed to the ingredients) You can see how healthy it is because he says right on the box, contains chicken bi-products."

I walked away.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

In a few short months, your husband will one day suddenly say: "Hey Honey.. the dog doesn't smell anymore, and neither do our carpets. Why's that?"







Hubby will come around when there is less doggy odor, less shedding, the poops are tiny, firm and nearly odorless in the yard, the dog's coat is glossy, teeth are blindingly white, the dog is CALMER and more able to settle in the house, more able to focus and think in training, and there's no more doggy itching, doggy gas, etc.

The vet: Needs a replacement.







Find a supportive vet.









You handle raw meat to make your family's meals-- everyone does. No wives and Moms get sick from that, even if they don't feed a raw diet to their dogs.

Dogs' digestive tracts, from their mouths to their backdoors, are designed for handling raw, old, yucky meat. Powerful saliva enzymes combat bacteria, intense stomach acids dissolve bone quickly, and a supershort intestinal tract zips things along before vacteria can have a foothold. Dogs are designed to eat: roadkill, rotten bird's eggs, poop, rotting garbage, dead squirrels, etc... and you are feeding fresh, inspected, human-grade meats!









This is a NATURAL diet for a dog. Find a supportive vet!


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks EVERYONE for all your comments, support, and suggestions!









When she said that I could get sick, I don’t think I was thinking clearly. I think I sort of went into “defense mode” once I decided to tell her Miikka is still getting raw. Of course, as soon as I hung up the phone I thought to myself “Gees, I’ve been handling raw food for decades and I’ve never gotten sick from it.” Then, of course I thought of all kinds of good comebacks but of course it was too late, we had already ended our conversation. Don’t you hate it when that happens? 

I am looking for a meat grinder. We went to a few places over the weekend but we could not find one that would grind bones. I’ll probably have to order one online. Hopefully, it won’t take forever to get here. My husband said he will be much more comfortable with this diet if we grind up the bones. I have NO problem doing that – as long as I can find a decent grinder. 

I’m thinking I’ll need a new vet. The one problem I have is Miikka is going to get a PennHip x-ray. The x-ray is being done at the same clinic my vet works at (it’s a large clinic and animal hospital - with and emergency room. There are 8 vets there). One of the vets at the clinic does the penn x-rays (I think she is the only one in town that does them). So, I’d like to stay with the clinic until the x-rays are done. Plus, I like the fact that they have 24-hour emergency service. There is ALWAYS a doctor there. I would hate to leave this clinic as it’s very close to my house…heck, on a nice day, we could walk there. So, I think at our next appointment, which is next week (booster shots), I’m going to have a nice long talk with her about Miikka’s diet and my belief that it’s the best thing for her. I’ll see how she handles it. If she is still all stinky about it, then I’ll find someone else. 

Thanks again! I'm soooo glad I found this forum!!








Cheryl


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Cheryl,

I just saw you were from ABQ. I sent you a PM about area vets...


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

I could be wrong, but dogs need to chew bones to help with their teeth. its a good workout. 
I dont think you have to grind them up but just supervise her meals and make sure she doesnt just gulp it down. as I said in your other thread hold a piece for her as she crushes the bone.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Miikka can manage the bones just fine herself-- she was born for it!







It's we humans who worry.







She will very soon adapt to eating bone just fine! Eating RMBs allows her to get so many benefits: She has somethin' to play with,







this keeps her interest up, her head and jaw muscles develop better and get a nice healthy work out, and this helps her stress level. Bone crunching dogs relax and enjoy the stress-relief of bone crunching! Eating an RMB also prepares her tummy best for what is coming down. It causes acids in her tummy to go full bore, so the bone and food gets just the right amount of stomach acids. The stomach is better prepared for the food if the dog has to work at it a bit first before it goes down.

This is explained best in the book Give Your Dog a Bone by veterinarian Dr. Ian Billinghurst. Bone eating as whole RMBs is therapeutic!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: smykeI could be wrong, but dogs need to chew bones to help with their teeth.


They don't HAVE to have them. My girl Kaynya eats mainly ground, maybe some small whole things once or twice a week and her teeth are fine.

If you toss a raw rec bone to your dog once a week or two their teeth should be fine.









Grinders that can handle bones - and they will ONLY handle chicken bones (any), turkey necks and wings (NOT legs), duck (any), rabbit (any) and fish - can be found here:

http://www.onestopjerkyshop.com/tasin-ts...be6e8b9993ad5c6

Or you can Google Tasin TS-108.

A grinder than can handle any other types of bones - like beef - will be a commercial grinder and run in the 6 figures.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Thats why Lauri has her own website about raw and I dont.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RThey arent going to get sick from raw meat.
> 
> I would stick with the raw diet. It really is the best thing for them!


Some dogs *will * get sick from raw meat. For those dogs, it is not the best diet for them.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

To keep my husband happy, I think it would be best if I grind up the bones, at least for a while. When she gets a little older/bigger, I’ll try the whole bones again to see if she chews them better. 

I just ordered the grinder Lauri mentioned in her ^ post. According to their shipping info, I should have it in 3-4 days. That would be very nice! Right now Miikka is NOT getting any bones (other than recreational). I’m de-boning everything…and it’s sort of a hassle! DH is fine with the raw food, just not the bones…well, he’s fine with the bones as long as they are ground up, hence the meat grinder. 

Cheryl


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

you may see some runny poops while she is not eating any bones. once the grinder gets delivered you will be golden.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Until you get your grinder you can use ground egg shells for calcium. Make sure they are dry and finely ground (in a coffee grinder). Lauri recommended 1 tsp per pound of meat. When we tried that we had crumbly poo, so start with maybe a 1/2 tsp per pound of food, and slowly increase if needed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I look on CL from time to time for grinders This ad made me sick when I read the persons e-mail address:
http://southbend.craigslist.org/wan/1547246995.html
I hope he isn't grinding up equine.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDSunshineUntil you get your grinder you can use ground egg shells for calcium. Make sure they are dry and finely ground (in a coffee grinder). Lauri recommended 1 tsp per pound of meat. When we tried that we had crumbly poo, so start with maybe a 1/2 tsp per pound of food, and slowly increase if needed.


Thanks so much for this tip! I WILL add the egg shell....I DO own a coffee grinder!!!


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks for letting me know this Mike!! I'll add eggshells and see it that helps! 

cheryl


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelfthe poops are tiny, firm and nearly odorless in the yard


Yay for berry-sized


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