# Aaarghhh! Confused by the experts....



## mnbue (Aug 18, 2011)

Ok, I'm new, and this is my first post...so it's long. Sorry! I was going to ask what I thought was a simple question, but now that I read through a bunch of threads, I mostly want to know if I've put together all the expert advice into any kind of correct solution for my GSD buddy. Here are the details...

Our Griffin is now almost 9 months, raised initially (by the breeder) on Royal Canin - about 5 cups/day. We switched him at 3 months first to Orijen (didn't like the ingredients of RC, and I swear by Orijen for my 2 cats), but second guessed it based on the high protein content and some scary-sounding info from this forum on high protein and puppies. Also, he occasionally had runny poops on the Orijen (which I now think were just due to exercise or overfeeding or both - we were new GSD owners and figured 5 cups RC = 5 cups Orijen, because the 2 1/2 cups recommended on the Orijen bag didn't make sense!). Being a typical paranoid first-time GSD owner, I was also nervous that he might have "dropped pasterns" or whatever the term was, and that there might be a dietary fix...so we switched to Canadian Naturals - a local food with quality ingredients, but not grain-free, and chicken-based.

So his poop improved a bit at first (runny about 1/2 the time), as did his pasterns eventually (although I think it was probably just typical puppy floppiness, that he grew out of - his legs look great now), He'd been eating the Canadian Naturals for several months, but recently started having more and more runny poops again, and we kept having to increase his food to keep ANY weight on him (eventually to 6-7 cups a day, which I eventually realized is NOT normal...right??) Otherwise he'd go from a healthy slim to ribs starting to show through his coat.

He's been wormed routinely and is healthy and playful - the vet suggests this seems dietary rather than an underlying medical issue. We've recently (gradually) switched him to First Mate (the grain-free fish formula) on the advice of our pet food store rep (who seems quite knowledgeable, and suggests a sensitivity to chicken might be the issue), which has fixed his runny poops 100%, but at the recommended 3 cups/day he still doesn't seem to be putting on any weight. It's been a couple weeks since we finished the switch...he gets light exercise in the AM, and a longer (about 1 hr) walk/play etc in the evening, but nothing terribly extreme. He's got the free run of a yard during the day but he's a pretty mellow pup, so I doubt he's burning off much energy when we're not looking.

I'm probably WAY overanalyzing this, and he's just what you'd call a "hard keeper". BUT, the breeder's dogs do run larger than average (one of the males from his dam's litter is about 120 lbs, but mom and dad were both closer to average themselves). Maybe he's meant to be a large dog and actually requires more than the recommended amount of food? He's only about 75 lbs now. 

There's way too much to know about food...feed good quality (obviously), but X, Y, and Z aren't good, depending on who you talk to. Runny poo can be illness, or overfeeding, or too much protein, or not enough, or too much exercise.....etc....don't let your puppy carry too much weight, but not too little, either. Grain is bad. Grain is good for "hard keepers". Some dogs can't handle chicken...a basic ingredient in most foods.....Anticipate his adult weight (which you can't really know) and base your feeding guidelines off of that...arrgh. Help!


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## SouthernNdN (Nov 17, 2010)

Well, basically it would come down to what works best for the dog. Period.

Many ppl out there will suggest one food over the other, chicken vs fish etc... but again, it ultimately comes down to what the dog is able to process without throwing it's stomach out of whack!

I had switched to Orijen at one point as well, however I had to switch due to the richness of the food. Ultimately I went with a food that most don't agree on giving your dog until its a certain age, however it was the one food I find that my girl could eat without having any issues, and was one of the ones that she didn't end up snubbing 1-2 wks later.

As for guessing the adult weight of your dog, I would take into consideration the size of both the parents, and perhaps their parents, to get a high and a low weight. Genetics are a crazy and just as humans, many animals can take on the genetic charcteristics of generations gone by. Your next thing would be the amount and type of exercise the dog is getting. Again you have to take genetics into consideration. If the dog doesn't have runny stools, has been checked out per a Vet and is found in good condition with no issues, then the next thing would be a high metabolism perhaps. Or a check on the height of the dog, to see if perhaps it's going to the bones through a growth spurt, if the dog seems to look as though it's not putting on weight. However this is just my opinion.

Also you say he's in the backyard during the day. Is he being watched while he's in the backyard throughout the day? If not, have you did a check to see if there is anything out in the yard or area the dog is kept, that could be a possible reason for why the dog is having these issues? I know that when ever my girl eats anything she shouldn't, it doesn't usually sit well with her tract.

Has your vet ever offered to do an allergy check on the dog, to see if it's possibly something other than a meat product the dog could be allergic to?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree that going with what works for him (as in no diarrhea) is the best choice. 75 pounds at 9 months is pretty big, actually. 120 pounds is WAY over standard. It could be that he's just growing pretty fast. You could try adding something like Tripett canned tripe (excellent for digestion and somewhat higher in fat and also made in Canada) to his kibble. I would avoid increasing his kibble too much or you will probably get diarrhea again. It is safe to add 1/4 cup to each meal though. 

Also, when you say "too thin" what exactly do you mean? Gsds should be very lean (especially the bigger ones). Most people's dogs are actually too fat.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Ditto on the above. Go with what works for the dog. 

Don't overfeed on kibble or you increase your risk of bloat too. The food I feed my 95-pound Aussie (he's gigantic and severe food restriction gets him down to 91 pounds and no less) is approximately 4 cups a day. Not all food volumes are the same. 

If his bowels are solid, he has negative fecal (preferable twice a couple months apart), he is active and happy, his body other than the rib area (like chest, back haunches, neck) are not sunken, and his coat looks good, chances are he is fine and lean. You may be thinking he should be fatter than he should be. 

Perhaps you might want to post some pictures to this thread and let the experts here tell you if he is too thin or not.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

It very well could be a case of simple over feeding (and in addition too much protein) You mentioned the feeding amount of the RC as 5 cups but have to realize you feed more cups of that food as opposed to others due to it's unique shape and size. The RC GSD food is much larger than other kibbles and as a result you need to feed more "cup wise" to be sure to get the proper volume. Now, if you are feeding too much of a richer food you will see loose to runny stools and in the case of too much protein you get what has in the past been referred to as "burn." It is a term that comes from the care of horses basically when you refer to a "hot feed." If you feed too much protein you will actually see weight loss...referred to as a "protein burn." I would suggest going to a food that is not as rich and feed according to the packaging and then adjust from there. I would suggest a food with moderate protein and fat levels as around 25/15 to 28/18 and I would go with a food that does not have more than 500kcals per cup.


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

5 cups seems like a lot of food for such a young dog. I feed 4 cups Orijen to my fully grown adult (75lb. female) . I started on Roycal canin also but think I fed about 2 1/2 cups at that age.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Royal Canin GSD is a very common choice by breeders and show people. It is certainly not cheap. Could it be breeders think it is a good food?

By the way, 5 cups of that food is because of the kibble size and shape. In weight it is about 3.5 - 4 cups of a standard kibble.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Royal Canin GSD is a very common choice by breeders and show people. It is certainly not cheap. Could it be breeders think it is a good food?
> 
> By the way, 5 cups of that food is because of the kibble size and shape. In weight it is about 3.5 - 4 cups of a standard kibble.


Or could it be that they offer a significant discount to breeders and show people? 

I've had several trainers and breeders specifically say they feed it because of the deep price cuts they get.............

Of course I'm sure you'll say it's not true, eh?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Or could it be that they offer a significant discount to breeders and show people?
> 
> I've had several trainers and breeders specifically say they feed it because of the deep price cuts they get.............
> 
> Of course I'm sure you'll say it's not true, eh?


You don't have much professional experience because virtually all foods have breeder or palette programs. I can get any food I want for 25% off retail on a palette deal. 

So you are saying that these people are so morally corrupt that they would use a bad food just for a few pennies?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

sable123 said:


> You don't have much professional experience because virtually all foods have breeder or palette programs. I can get any food I want for 25% off retail on a palette deal.
> 
> So you are saying that these people are so morally corrupt that they would use a bad food just for a few pennies?


I never said that most foods don't have "high quantity" programs. Let's not put words into my mouth there buddy. However, some have better ones than others. Profit margins aren't the same for all companies.

If they were feeding Ol' Roy or something similar, then yes I would say that is BS. Not a fan of RC but there are certainly worse foods out there. And everyone has their budget. I didn't ask what they were spending, but for them they said that for waht they were ordering RC gave them the most bang for their buck. It was a lament they gave over why they were feeding that food--complaining they wish they could feed their gang a higher quality one. I'm sure their are other mediocre foods that are similar priced--I didn't ask if something like Eukanuba was the same, less, or more. It was general comments based on not being able to feed soemthing better.


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## dvsdevelopment (Jul 17, 2011)

sable123 said:


> You don't have much professional experience because virtually all foods have breeder or palette programs. I can get any food I want for 25% off retail on a palette deal.
> 
> So you are saying that these people are so morally corrupt that they would use a bad food just for a few pennies?


I'm no expert on any of this, but I don't think taking a deal on something like this would be considered morally corrupt. If its an okay food, better than the cheapest, and at a decent price I don't see why a breeders would feel bad about buying and recommending it. So, to answer the question, yes.

Most can agree that Science Diet isn't the best, but those darn vets sure do seem to stock a lot of it.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

I do not personally feel that Royal Canin is a "bad food." Over the years RC has been one of the industry leaders in dog and cat nutritional research and has a stellar reputation around the world. Their breed specific formulas were very well researched and constructed and make for very interesting reading. I remember when the GSD formula came out and as a breeder they sent me a very informative packet about it. There are so many very good things about the formula that really impressed me and I do not think a breeder's choice to use this diet shows a lack of care or shows ignorance at all. This diet is pricey and has a lot of research behind it and information that is given to breeders about the studies they did specifically on the GSD and it's unique needs. When I see that a breeder is feeding this diet it shows me the opposite of ignorance. People may like to look at panels and judge many different diets and formulations on that alone but if people do not understand why a diet is constructed the way it is and seek more information IMO they overlook many very good foods.

Just wanted to throw that out there...


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