# Was told Silver german shepherds were inbred?



## semoglia

I wasnt sure where to put this because I am still new to the board. I tried to search it but couldnt find anything. A friend of mine told me that GSD's that are silver are a product of inbreeding, is this true. 
Everything I have read on breed standards have a place for silver's. I know Raven my silver well from all I have looked up she is a silver sable has some inbreeding. Her dam and sire are siblings but not from the same litter. We are going to fix her but I just wondered if silvers were only a product of inbreeding and if that will cause her to have health problems in the future. Sorry this post is kind of all over the place in topic.


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## DianaM

Silver coloring does not indicate a dog is inbred however it does indicate the dog has very poor color. GSDs should have very strong color and pigment and this washed out silver color is not desirable. 

Whether or not she has health problems can be better indicated by her family history. If you went with a good breeder, they would have hip- and elbow-cleared their breeding dogs as well as tested for any other genetic diseases, chosen sound breeding partners, and have carefully researched family history and discuss with you what the line carries in terms of potential health problems. 



> Quote:Her dam and sire are siblings but not from the same litter.


Same litter or not, if they both have the same parents and were bred, then your pup is quite inbred.







I suspect your "breeder" may not have informed you of potential health problems to watch out for. Not many very good breeders breed for dogs with washed out color and no good breeder does this sort of inbreeding. If you want, you can get Raven's hips and elbows xrayed when she is between one and two years of age (right about now would be fine) to see if there are any genetic joint issues. I'm not quite sure what other tests you can run, but so long as you're observant, diligent with vet checkups, and feed her quality food, you'll stack the deck in your favor as much as you can. Even in the most well thought out breedings, genetics can deal a bad hand.


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## semoglia

Thank you for your advise. We bought her from a friend of ours, the litter was accidental. I forgot to put that in there the male broke his tether when the female went into heat. We bought her for a pet only and dont intend to breed her. I was just unsure about the effects of the silver and if that was a big problem. Raven just turned 7 weeks sunday. She is a bit aggressive(we call her pirahna) but will be taking her to puppy classes as soon as she gets her second set of shots. I have a male GSD and his is a beautiful black/red mix. Im new to GSD's these are my first. I fell in love with the breed after getting Grimm. I guess there is a lot to learn and look into the next time we get GSDs. We will definatly look for reputiable breeders next time.


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## doggiedad

so, a black and silver Shepherd has poor coloring?


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## DianaM

Ohhh she's 7 weeks... I think I looked at the wrong dog when trying to find out her age in your signature. GSD puppies are definitely land sharks so I am VERY glad to hear you are going to training classes! She just turned 7 weeks, so I assume you've had her earlier? Please make sure she has plenty of chances to mouth you and bite you (yes, sounds bad) because she needs to learn bite inhibition; by being removed early from the litter, she missed out on that valuable lesson. When she mouths you at a level you're not comfy with, and no you don't have to wait until it's unbearable, yelp loudly, then either get up and walk away if the pup is in a SAFE area or crate/pen the pup and walk away. Raven will then learn if she doesn't mind her bite pressure, she'll terminate her playtime and be left alone for a bit. Just leave her for a few minutes, then repeat. It's VERY important for dogs to learn bite inhibition- dogs that don't will bite very badly if they ever feel the need to bite whereas those that do learn bite pressure control will be very gentle and careful with their mouths.

Doggiedad, going by the standard, yes. A GSD should have strong pigment and color. 

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_standard.htm
"Considerable lack of pigment" is a severe fault in the SV standard.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/
"Pale, washed out colors.. are serious faults." That is per the AKC GSD standard.

Now color will have no effect on her health and temperament. Raven could be an agility and obedience star and the best dog ever regardless of her color.


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## allieg

For those of us unfamiliar with the coloring would you be able to post pictures of her?We especially love puppy pics...


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## semoglia

Yes we did get her early. My friend was in a hurry to place the pups. We have had her since she was 4 weeks. We have been working on the bite inhibition and Grimm has helped some but being that his is still a puppy himself he is a little rough with her. Im excited to start classes with her. Grimm was a breeze to train but we also go him at 9 weeks and he has a totally different personnality than her. Raven is very stubborn but is very smart she has great problem solving skills like how best to steel laundry out of the basket with out mom or dad noticing.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I'd also love to see photos. Not sure if what you have is just a sable? Or under pigmented black/tan? Or even a darker white GSD?

Just to reiterate your 7 week old may be biting the heck out of you, but it's not agression. It's their normal (and painful) way of playing. It worked for their mom, their littermates, and now you. So until you teach a new and better way to play (I recommend toys with long ropes/handles) you will be going ouch ouch ouch alot. We have an entire section in the puppy place called 'Bite Inhibition' to help us all!


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## semoglia

Sure this is her at 5 weeks 
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii351/semoglia/raven6wks.jpg

And her at 7 weeks.
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii351/semoglia/raven634wks.jpg
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii351/semoglia/raven612week.jpg


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## DianaM

Do you have any better photos of her where we can see her whole body in some light? She looks adorable! She also looks dilute (liver or blue instead of black) which is why I want to see more pics!


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## semoglia

The biting isnt the issue we know about puppy biting and have just stocked up on the bandaides..lol but she gets mad when you pick her up and she doesnt want to be up. She will show her teeth and I guess it could be snarling and snapping at whatever is closest(face hands she likes to bite noses) we have been working on settle when she gets really aggrivated. Is this something to do with the bite inhibition or is this just a ticked off pup?


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## semoglia

This is the only one I have on file here at work but I will try to get more tonight.
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii351/semoglia/raven312week.jpg


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## DianaM

Pups that don't like to be lifted and fight while lifted may end up being VERY pushy. I know on the puppy tests that a pup reacting like this would score in the "professionals only" range but no one can make a real judgment without testing the pup completely and properly, and even then it could be just a guess given the pup's history thus far. 

I would continue to lift her and ONLY put her down as soon as she quiets. Wait for her to breathe a heavy sigh, then praise and put her down and play with her. She must learn that struggling will get her nowhere but being calm and patient is her ticket to freedom. Again, I'm very glad you're signing up for classes! If her temperament is good and she's just a pushy monster, consider doing something like agility to channel all that energy. I have a pushy dog (give an inch, take 10 miles) and training him in agility IS A BLAST!!! I'll always have a pushy, drivey nut now.









As she grows and matures, more of her temperament will become apparent. It's too early now to worry about anything, just socialize the snot out of her and jump into classes as soon as your vet gives the go-ahead.

http://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php
If you're curious, there's the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test. Ideally, it will be done in an area the pup has never been in with a person the pup has never met. It's definitely not a hard/fast rule but it can give you insight at best and at worst it would be another socialization exercise for the pup (so either way, I don't think this would do any harm).


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## ChancetheGSD

She looks like a liver to me too.

Just wondering, why was your friend in such a hurry to get rid of the pups at only 4 weeks?


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## DianaM

It's REALLY hard to tell in the photos... it might be just me, but her black doesn't look "black." Anyone else?


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## DianaM

If Raven is liver and silver, that would be downright awesome. Definitely not a breeding candidate, but I bet she'd mature into a beauty.

(Yes I love livers and blues!)


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## semoglia

She sold the rest at 5-6 weeks but let me have Raven early. I had tried to save one of the pups that was only 5 days old. The pup died because she had a hernia, and because of that I was really upset so she said that I could have Raven earlier, and being the dop that I am said sure, I didnt realize till reading up after I got her that a 4 week old pup was completly different than getting an 8 week pup. Trust me I will never willingly do that again.


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## semoglia

I will try to get better pics of her tonight and post them in the morning of her. Thank you all for your help y'all are awesome!


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## mjbgsd

Wow, 4 weeks is way to young, I believe that is around the time when they start switching from liquids to solids. Your pup missed out on a lot of socialization with the mother and her siblings that she can't get anywhere else. Some pups as they grow end up having temperament problems because they were taken away from their littermates to soon. I just hope your baby doesn't have those issues.
But it's a good thing that you will be going to puppy classes after she get's her 2nd series of shots. Puppy classes are good for young puppies.


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## allieg

She looks so innocent in all the pictures.Can't wait to see more.


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## BlackGSD

She sure doesn't look liver to me. On my 'puter her coat is definatley NOT "red" (Nor is her nose). She also doens't look like a sable.

She DOES look pretty cute though.


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## ChancetheGSD

Aw, I'm sorry you lost the first pup.









I don't think her "black" is very black either. Though I'm with Diana, it'd be cool if she really is a liver!

Can't wait to see more pictures.


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## Chicagocanine

If you're interested in reading more about socialization, this is a really good article:
http://www.dogscouts1.com/How_to_socialize.html

When a puppy is taken away from the litter too early, extensive socialization is CRITICAL for the new owner in order to help to counteract some of the negative effects of missing out on so much socialization with mom and littermates.


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## Cypress

Atlas has a bit of silver on his stomach and he isn't inbred (at least going back 5 generations), so I'm not sure if there is any truth to that statement.


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## wolfstraum

She's a cute puppy! I'd say blue from the photos!

Some of her behavior with you is a result of her not having her littermates to interact with and learn how to be a dog! Puppies ARE alot of work! Unfortunately, your friend did no one a service by letting those pups go early...so you will have to take the place of the mother and littermates to teach your pup proper manners.

A brother sister breeding is very risky...some breeders have done them - it is not recommended as it doubles on the negatives as well as the positive. The blue color is a recessive both parents looked to have carried, and so your pup is blue. Hopefully, she got their good qualities as well!

Looking forward to more photos!

Lee


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## TNGSD

Many GSDs from the Rin Tin Tin line are black and silver. Here is a link to their store on their website... they sell silver and black stuffed animal puppies. http://www.rintintin.com/store.htm


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## scannergirl

I want to know if the silver color that the puppy has now is the actual color she will be or might she grow up to be different? Is it just degrees of black that change?
She's a cute puppy and I'm glad that she has you to bring her up.


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## Daisy1986

Very cute puppy Emily!! 

I would never do it again either. I know better now. But years ago my first JRT was sold to me at 6 wks. Luckily no problems, she was very bonded to us though. Might be considered unhealthy to some, but I am at home all the time. 

TNGSD- Thanks for the Rin Tin Tin link gotta have those blk and silver GSD slippers!!


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## rdmarti3

Can anyone please point me in the direction or can give me info. on the "Blue" color? and is this cause of inbredding?

thanks


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## semoglia

Good morning all here are the pics that I got last night. There are a few of Grimm in there as well.
http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii351/semoglia/


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## SunCzarina

More on what makes a blue. There's another thread with pictures but I can't find it or remember who started it (she was a troll, anybody remember)
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post841689

Emily, your pups are gorgeous, both of them. I can't really tell from the lighting in the pictures but she looks black and cream to me, which usually makes a lovely dog when she's grown. I think she's too young to tell if she's going to be black or blue becuase I saw a pup at that age who was bluish - now he's quite black.


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## Daisy1986

I remember that Troll thread. CVK or something. They also had a Coyotes or GSD's thread. 

I think the one on Blue's was deleted if that is possible, it got really heated. I looked back in my stuff and it is gone. They were breeding Blues, in barns, or wanting to, very weird. 

That is what caused me to post the thread you have the link of to SunCzarina. I was confused back then to what they were talking about. 

Ahh! Memories. I have learned a lot since July.









Yes, Emily the lastest pics you posted of Raven and Grimm (we have another Grimm on here). Are very cute! I like the one where Raven is sitting with her tongue out,







TO cute. She is saying what to play?? She looks a little liver, not sure, hard to tell.


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## JKlatsky

I think she looks black and cream. She looks to me like she's mostly fuzzy puppy coat still, which doesn't always look as black as the adult coat.


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## BlackGSD

I agree. ^ 
She is definately NOT liver. Nor does she look blue to me, her coat and nose look black. So black and silver or "cream". And NOT a sable.


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## Daisy1986

Just wanted to see if I could see it bigger. Hope it is not to big.


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## Daisy1986

She does look creamy...TO cute!


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## semoglia

I couldnt figure out how to put them on the page like that.


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## tim9m

I know this is in old thread but I have seen it come up when I googled a few times. So I actually became a member just to post this. A silver german shepherd does not have a genetic problem, inbred problem or any other problem. From my unprofessional opinion and what I have seen through the years is they have white German shepherd bred in to their line. This is how the white is washing out other colours to make them diluted.


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## kelliewilson

bandit is what the breeder called a silver. hes not inbred, she gets 2 silvers with every litter.


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## Stonevintage

tim9m said:


> I know this is in old thread but I have seen it come up when I googled a few times. So I actually became a member just to post this. A silver german shepherd does not have a genetic problem, inbred problem or any other problem. From my unprofessional opinion and what I have seen through the years is they have white German shepherd bred in to their line. This is how the white is washing out other colours to make them diluted.


I owned a blue GSD for 14 years. I often wondered about them. When I got smoke at 10 weeks old, he was solid grey with a black mask and just a bit of tan on his chest. He had the most amazing blue eyes until he was around 4 months old (they turned brown). He ended up being a blue with the mask and saddle black, legs tan.

The reason I wondered was that I previously owned a wolf hybrid for 13 years. His sire pure timber wolf (black silver and tan) and dam (black & tan) GSD. He ended up being a silver and black. He too was the same coloring as my Blue with the same blue eyes until around 4 months old, they also turned brown.

My thought is that it is the wolf content resurfacing (once in a blue moon) to show that it is still in the basic original genetic mix that created the GSD.


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## Jax08

tim9m said:


> I know this is in old thread but I have seen it come up when I googled a few times. So I actually became a member just to post this. A silver german shepherd does not have a genetic problem, inbred problem or any other problem. *From my unprofessional opinion and what I have seen through the years is they have white German shepherd bred in to their line. This is how the white is washing out other colours to make them diluted*.


Incorrect. White is a masking gene. It does not "dilute" colors. The dog will genetically be a black/tan, black, sable, blue, liver. The gene that creates the white masks the true color.

Genes that create blue and liver are separate genes that dilute the black to either a blue or liver color.

The silver does not make a dog inbred. Breeding brother to sister does make the dog inbred.

German Shepherds do NOT have wolves in their lineage. It's a myth.


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## Stonevintage

Jax08 said:


> Incorrect. White is a masking gene. It does not "dilute" colors. The dog will genetically be a black/tan, black, sable, blue, liver. The gene that creates the white masks the true color.
> 
> Genes that create blue and liver are separate genes that dilute the black to either a blue or liver color.
> 
> The silver does not make a dog inbred. Breeding brother to sister does make the dog inbred.
> 
> German Shepherds do NOT have wolves in their lineage. It's a myth.


 Since there is no reliable genetic test to prove or disprove this because the GSD and Wolf are so closely related, what are you basing your opinion on? See www.vgl.usdavis.edu/services/wolf-DogHybred.php


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## Jax08

Max.

What are you basing your opinion on?


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## Castlemaid

Jax is correct about the white masking gene and about the wolf connection in the German Shepherd. 

Silver is just a faded tan pigment. Some dogs have strong tan/red pigment, some dogs have a lighter, faded tan that comes out as cream colored, or silver as it is called. The White dogs have a masking Gene (which is recessive) that covers up and masks all other colours to show all white. 

Dogs either inherit two copies of the recessive masking gene in which case they are all white, or if only one copy, they are only carriers of the gene, and it does not affect their 'normal' color genes, nor does it affect the color of their offsprings, unless said offspring also inherits a white masking gene from the other parent, in which case the dog will also be all white. The color genes and the white masking genes are seperate genes that do not interact with one another. 

Also right about the wolf myth. I believe one of the ANCESTORS of one of the dogs used as a founding sire had some wolf in him (Something like the grandmother was part wolf?). We're talking about the ANCESTOR of a dog that lived 100yrs ago. There has NOT been any other dogs with wolf in them in the stud books and traceable history of the breed, as per documented pedigrees. 

To use this as a 'fact' that today's GSD is part wolf is stretching it a bit . . . 

The link you posted Stonevintage is not working for me. 

And just as a general observation, I get pretty annoyed sometimes when people come on this board and say they are researching GSDs for a paper they are writing, and all their info comes from googling on the internet. People on the forum ask is they have read Max's book (the founder of the breed), and of course, they haven't even heard about it, nor would they have heard about the founder of the breed, but there was an article in someone's blog somewhere on the internet that claimed that Wolf blood has been introduced in GSDs over and over again to maintain their look and temeperament, and it sounds like the writer knows what they are talking about, so they believe it. 

I love the info available through the internet - but each and every person should carry out due diligence and find original sources to base their information on.


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## Lykoz

Castlemaid said:


> And just as a general observation, I get pretty annoyed sometimes when people come on this board and say they are researching GSDs for a paper they are writing, and all their info comes from googling on the internet. People on the forum ask is they have read Max's book (the founder of the breed), and of course, they haven't even heard about it, nor would they have heard about the founder of the breed, but there was an article in someone's blog somewhere on the internet that claimed that Wolf blood has been introduced in GSDs over and over again to maintain their look and temeperament, and it sounds like the writer knows what they are talking about, so they believe it.
> 
> I love the info available through the internet - but each and every person should carry out due diligence and find original sources to base their information on.


Everything is on the internet 

It is a matter of where to look and why. What subscriptions you have and access.
What you are willing to pay for online. How you can change your search to get access to information that is paid on certain cites but not others. (Eg. Searching with google scholar will find you the published article in a Journal, you may not have access to. Then you search with google with the right search syntax, and you find the author has made it free for viewing, on some personal web-page.)

How good your search capabilities are with google or google Scholar.
Either way... 

If researching for a well written paper Google as a company is infallible.
There is absolutely no way to beat google... No matter how large your hard-bookshelf is.. Or your state library..

Google is king.
It is your ability to sort the information, and access it that is of importance here.
People need to understand that.

We even use google to filter through the information on this site.

I can find threads for GSD.com without using the GSD.com website based google search.
Its all about how you piece the keywords. And its all about your ability to do good critical reading appraisal, and sort out rubbish from the good.

People who rely on hard-cover books in presenting a paper in 2015 are reading out of date information.


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## Stonevintage

Castlemaid said:


> Jax is correct about the white masking gene and about the wolf connection in the German Shepherd.
> 
> Silver is just a faded tan pigment. Some dogs have strong tan/red pigment, some dogs have a lighter, faded tan that comes out as cream colored, or silver as it is called. The White dogs have a masking Gene (which is recessive) that covers up and masks all other colours to show all white.
> 
> Dogs either inherit two copies of the recessive masking gene in which case they are all white, or if only one copy, they are only carriers of the gene, and it does not affect their 'normal' color genes, nor does it affect the color of their offsprings, unless said offspring also inherits a white masking gene from the other parent, in which case the dog will also be all white. The color genes and the white masking genes are seperate genes that do not interact with one another.
> 
> Also right about the wolf myth. I believe one of the ANCESTORS of one of the dogs used as a founding sire had some wolf in him (Something like the grandmother was part wolf?). We're talking about the ANCESTOR of a dog that lived 100yrs ago. There has NOT been any other dogs with wolf in them in the stud books and traceable history of the breed, as per documented pedigrees.
> 
> To use this as a 'fact' that today's GSD is part wolf is stretching it a bit . . .
> 
> The link you posted Stonevintage is not working for me.
> 
> And just as a general observation, I get pretty annoyed sometimes when people come on this board and say they are researching GSDs for a paper they are writing, and all their info comes from googling on the internet. People on the forum ask is they have read Max's book (the founder of the breed), and of course, they haven't even heard about it, nor would they have heard about the founder of the breed, but there was an article in someone's blog somewhere on the internet that claimed that Wolf blood has been introduced in GSDs over and over again to maintain their look and temeperament, and it sounds like the writer knows what they are talking about, so they believe it.
> 
> I love the info available through the internet - but each and every person should carry out due diligence and find original sources to base their information on.


Page 2 The German Shepherd Today - Strickland & Moses "Attempts to merge the strain into one distinct breed had been tried unsuccessfully, and all the sheep herding dogs had been placed under the category of Shepherds, no matter what their size, shape, ear carriage, coat length, or color. There were a few All-Breed Shows, and there had been one attempt at a Club, known as the Phylax Society. It was based solely on its members' common interest in breeding dogs to resemble wolves, presumably hoping to cash in on their high market value." This was before Max got involved. If this comment in the book is not a fabrication and the Phylax Society was already breeding for the wolf look with the manageability of the herding dogs how can you know that they didn't breed to wolves to achieve this? Did Max get his original dogs from any from the Phylax Society lines? Very possible. 

I can understand a statement that says "we don't know for sure" but I cannot understand statements categorically denying any wolf content in the GSD. 

Sorry the link didn't work. You can Google - University of Davis Wolf Dog Hybrid test. This is a test that they developed and it is what is currently on the market. The disclaimers show the complete inability of today's genetic testing products to fail if going back more than 3 generations. The reasons listed for the test failure provide verification that wolf ancestry is anyone's guess unless the crossing was fairly recent. 

I'm sure you are aware that the GSD tests higher genetically for wolf dna than any other domestic dog breed including the Northern breeds. How would you account for that?


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## Lykoz

I have no idea at all on this topic 

I will just say what I do know. Pretty much all pure-bred dogs have some in-breeding, or at least some more distant line-breeding (in-breeding with less relation).

You cant standardise a breed otherwise. 
It is also impossible to create 'similar' dogs...

On inception all pure-bred lines start with an extremely small population size of dogs with desired traits. In-breeding creates reproduction of look/behaviour.


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