# Breeding Black to White



## grmnshprdfn

Today I ran into a man at the store that my fiance' purchased a dog from in the past. He owns 2 wgsds (who by the way, are not titled in any way, nor have they had any certifications of any kind done that I'm aware of). Anyway, he was asking how I was doing, and if I still have shepherds...and proceeded in telling me that he has a friend who has a black female and is wanting to breed her with his white male! I may be wrong...but that seems so wrong to me! What type of puppies would that even bring?? I don't know anything about genetics, or breeding even, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone breeding a white to a black, and I figured there must be a reason for that. What should he expect from such a pairing? I just felt like I should warn him against it, but unfortunately didn't have any facts to help argue my case. What color would he expect to see (if he went through with it) and would there be a greater risk for genetic disease to be carried out? I just thought some of you could give me information to pass on to him that would maybe make him change his mind.


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## elsie

i've wondered this myself... wgsd x bgsd = ? would b&w sables be a possibility?


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## angelaw

being black is recessive, unless the white dog carried black, no blacks. White is a masking gene, so you'd have to know what the parents of the white dog looked like since the white dogs colors are "hidden" so to speak.

You get sables only if you have a sable parent.


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## Cicada

Nah. I think just a bunch of solid black and white puppies.


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## Caitlin

I am not a breeder and don't know much about genetics, so breeders correct me if I'm wrong on this:

Color doesn't have anything to do with whether or not a GSD carries genetic diseases. Also, white is a masking gene, so you'd have to know what color the white GSD would be without the masking gene. It's not as simple as putting black and white together and getting a black and white dog. If the black GSD carries the masking gene, it's possible to have white puppies. If not, you can end up with any variations of colors depending on what genes the parents carry. Black, sable, black and tan, etc. I have never heard of black and white sables. There are silver sables, which may be what you're thinking of? Yes those would be possible if the parents carry sable genes, but remember, white and silver are not separate colors, they are just diluted or masked tans and browns.

I think anyways.

Also, I have heard of black and white GSDs being bred to each other before, it's not extremely rare.


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## angelaw

Again, genetics. Black is recessive. 

So you have:

Black dog---- recessive to everything


White dog--- who knows what color since it's masked. 

White dog could be sable, could be black and tan. Whatever color it is under the white masking gene, is prob. what the pups would look like. Easier way to find out is to know what color the parents of the white dog are. 

But the likelihood of getting black and white puppies?? Really now.


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## grmnshprdfn

I didn't talk to him long enough to get any information about the black dogs pedigree (as far as color goes) but I do know that his white dog is from a LONG line of all whites. I just had never heard of anyone breeding those colors together before, so it had me wondering what would come of it if he did.


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## Caitlin

Angela, so since black is recessive that means even if the dog had the white masking gene they wouldn't produce whites? Or is it even possible, since he's black? I guess since he's black it means he doesn't carry white, otherwise he'd be white?

Sorry! Trying to learn.


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## Chris Wild

White masking gene is recessive, however it is located on a separate locus from the gene for general color. A white dog is genetically a regular colored GSD... could be black, sable, black & tan or bi-color. But, as the white masking gene causes the entire dog to BE white, we don't know what color that white dog carries, or would be if it didn't have the white masking gene. That's why knowing the color of the white dog's parents would be helpful.

Black is recessive to all other colors. So a black dog cannot carry genes for sable, black & tan or bi-color. It can carry the white masking gene. If it carries 2 copies of the white masking gene, it would BE white.

So White bred to black could produce any colored GSD. Without knowing what colors the white dog carries it is impossible to know what. If the black dog does not carry a copy of the white masking gene, which it probably doesn't, white puppies are impossible. If the black dog does carry a copy of the white masking gene, than statistically 50% of the litter would be white and 50% of the litter would be colored. What colors, again there is no way to say.

But no, there will not be any black & white puppies. The genes don't work that way.


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## lhczth

White is a masking gene so covers up what the true color of the dog is, BUT it is also recessive to color. So a dog must carry two genes for white to be white. If the black dog carries white there could be white puppies. Otherwise all the pups will be colored. The color will depend on what is being masked by the white. The resulting pups could be a whole range of regular colors. Make sense?


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## angelaw

Isn't genetics fun!!!









A dog can appear to be white due to the masking gene, but be genetically black. 

When such a white dog is bred to a solid black dog, the black dog would provide the pigment allowing the genetic patterns of the white parent to show up in their non-white progeny. That is why black to white breeding can produce agoutis and two-tone dogs. Only if the white parent has at least one gene for the solid pattern can a white to a black produce solid blacks. The colored parent must also possess at least one gene for the white recessive gene for a black to a white to produce whites. Dogs of other patterns than solid black may produce any of the patterns and colors found in colored dogs when bred to white, depending on what pattern and color genes BOTH of the parents possess.


See this site for more interesting reading:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/6869/colors.html


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## Caitlin

Thanks!!! Alright, now the silver color. I see white is a masking gene of any normal colors, but silver? Is that just a diluted tan? Poor pigment?


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## arycrest

By black and white, I assume you're asking if the puppies would have coats that are part black and part white???? No, this wouldn't happen with the color or masquing genes. Like someone said, the puppies could be black and a very light silver which is not the same as white.

The color is a crap shoot unless you can determine what color the WGSD is under his white masquing gene. Also, it would depend on if the black carries the white masquing gene or not. If the puppies are black, then BINGO, you know the secret that the WGSD is black!!! If some of the puppies are white, then you know the black carries the white masquing gene.


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## Caitlin

Yes, it is fun! Haha, thanks for the link Angela.


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## Chris Wild

Yes, silver is just diluted tan. 

Genetically, black & red, black & tan, black & silver, black & cream are all black & tan dogs. The color diffrences are caused by separate modifier genes that affect the hue of the tan markings.


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## grmnshprdfn

So, when looking at a wgsds pedigree, do you just look back to see where the colored dogs come into play to find out what color the white is masking? Like I said, I know this mans dogs are all white for at least several generations back, but there would have to be some color somewhere down the line. Right?


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## Chris Wild

Yes, there would be some color somewhere down the line, but if it's several generations back it's going to be hard to guess what the current dogs could be carrying.

Normally people breeding whites breed white to white since that's a guarantee to all white puppies. So not much attention is paid to what colors those whites may carry, since it's irrelevant when breeding white to white.


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## angelaw

yes but the further back you go and it's masked the harder it will be to tell what the current dog should actually be. Each dog gets 1 color gene from each parent. This doesn't count what's covered up. So say 2 generations ago, you had:

dog 1- black/tan black recessive
dog 2 - sable, black recessive

Say their 1 offspring DOG 3 was sable with black recessive (could've easily have been black/tan!)

Other side of the pedigree:
dog 4- bicolor black recessive
dog 5 sable no recessive

result is DOG 6 sable with bicolor recessive (could be black recessive too!)

Dog 3 is then bred to Dog 6
Dog 3 sable with black recessive
Dog 6 sable with bicolor recessive

Dog 7 coming from 3 & 6 could be sable with bicolor recessive, sable with black recessive or bicolor with black recessive 

This is just showing a possibility of 2 generations!

to add even more fun!








Say dog 7 ends up being bicolor with black recessive and bred to dog 8 that is black/tan with bicolor, 
resulting pup 9 could be bicolor with black, bicolor carrying bicolor, or black/tan carrying black or bicolor. 

THEN add in the white masking gene coming down every generation on dog 8 (as a carrier) and 7 ended up being a carrier, pup 9 would be white


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## grmnshprdfn

OMG! You people really know genetics! It's all very interesting, but can seem somewhat complicated to those like myself, who are hearing it for the first time. 

I don't think that guy was expecting to get puppies that were black&white, but I got the impression he thought the odd color combination would create more along the lines of the blues or livers. Maybe I should just point him in the direction of this forum, so he can read up on the genetics of it all himself. lol 

Thanks so much for all of the great information!


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## Chris Wild

Nope, to further complicate things, blue and liver are separate genes altogether. They're unrelated to color, pattern or white masking. 

Blue and liver are caused by dilution genes that impact the expression of melanin (black pigment). On a dog with a blue dilution, everything that would normally be black markings will be a steel gray color. On dogs with a liver dilution, what would normally be black markings will be a chocolate brown color.

A black to white breeding could produce blues or livers, but only if both parents carried the recessive gene for blues or livers. It's possible they do, but unlikely. Nothing about breeding black to white would cause it though, as it's entirely separate genes that cause the dilutions.


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## grmnshprdfn

Chris Wild...you are very wise!

Thanks for all your help.


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## angelaw

Yes she is.


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## Chris Wild

LOL.. well thanks... but I think "obsessed" might be a better description than "wise".


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## Romance

Chris? what about biscut colored whites? if white is a masking gene why are they biscut?


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## Chris Wild

There's no "if". White is a masking gene.









A "biscut" colored dog is still a white dog. Just because it's not stark white, it's still a white. I've owned several black dogs who were all subtly different shades of black. But they're still black.

Variations in color are caused by variations in pigment expression, as well as variations in hair structure causing differences in light refraction (since our perception of color is caused by light refraction).


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## amjrchamberlain

This is an interesting topic - it's always fabulous to learn from you all!









It also seems to be common that the biscut coloring comes through on a white dog in the pattern area of where the saddle or blanket would be on a colored dog. Since it is caused by variation in pigment expression, could this be called "bleed through"? Like with some black GSDs having bleed through where ground color markings would be?


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## arycrest

I've had 7 WGSDs over the years. None have been dead white. All but one had biscuit on the ear tips, a stripe down the back, and on the tail tip. The one exception had an actual biscuit mask and blanket pattern.


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## lish91883

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild If it carries 2 copies of the white masking gene, it would BE white.


Isn't the same true of a Blue or Liver GSD? That both parents have to carry the gene? Just curious. This really interests me.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: lish91883
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild If it carries 2 copies of the white masking gene, it would BE white.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the same true of a Blue or Liver GSD? That both parents have to carry the gene? Just curious. This really interests me.
Click to expand...

Yes. Blue and liver are recessive. And as is true of all recessive genes, both parents must carry them and the puppies inherit 2 copies of the gene, one from each parent, to show the trait themselves. If a dog carries only 1 copy of the gene, he won't display the trait but can pass the gene on to his pups. If a dog has 2 copies of the gene, he'll display the trait himself.

Though blue and liver are dilution genes that affect black pigment, not masking genes like white.


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## lish91883

Thanks Chris.


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## Ceph

Romance - the same allelic combination that causes Yellow in Labs is the same combination that causes white in shepherds. Acording to Sheila Schmutz, there may be another marker gene that causes the degree of biscuiting in the coat.

I think it is possible that the intensity locus (controls the intensity of tan markings) and the Agouti Locus (the pattern) probably both have something to do with the creaming in the coat.

And Chris is very right - it IS a masking gene. Sheila Schmutz recently published her findings in the J.Heredity. The cause of the white coat is at the Extension Locus, which has the following Alleles : 

Em - Dog with Agouti pattern and a black mask
E - Do with Agouti Patterns and no mask
e - dog with coat masked by white (does not affect skin)

The Liver is caused at the Black Locus, the Blue is caused at the Dilution Locus and the all Black dogs are the result of the most recessive allele at the Agouti Locus and dogs that are dominant at the two Loci that cause dilution and the E Locus.

~Cate


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## Romance

i didn't mean if..ment with. sometimes when im having problems with my siezures what i'm thinking has a hard time getting out on the typing.
thank you for both explinations.


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## amjrchamberlain

I didn't see this mentioned (but I could very well have missed it!)...

Back to the OP - if the WGSD descends from a long line of whites, could the breeding to a black be being used to determine the color that the WMGene is covering up in this dog?


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## Ceph

Yes









~Cate


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## amjrchamberlain

Thought so (that whole "test crossing to a recessive" thing in Genetics).


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## Chris Wild

Possible, but from the description it just sounds like someone who happens to have a black GSD wants to breed it to this guy's white GSD.


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## onyx'girl

So the bi-color comes from... black recessive(both parents) and b&T?


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## DancingCavy

No. Bicolor is a pattern in of itself.


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## onyx'girl

So how do you get the bi-color?


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## Chris Wild

Bi-color is a color/pattern like the others. Bi-color genes are recessive to sable and black/tan and dominant over solid black.

2 solid blacks cannot produce a bi-color, because bi-color is dominant over black. So if they carried the genes for bi-color they'd be bi-color.
Sable and black/tan can both carry recessives for bi-color and produce bi-color pups. And of course, bi-colors obviously carry the bi-color gene and can produce bi-color pups.


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## kelso

on the bi-color topic...are bi's more prevalent in specific lines? (like how most peolpe associate sables with working lines) just curious, we have a bi, she is from rescue, so no idea, but kindof always wondered...


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## Chris Wild

They're quite common in working lines, less so in American lines, and (like everything else that isn't black/tan) pretty much extinct in European show lines.


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## mychance

I've seen white GSDs with the biscuit coloration - I've always called them "sugar cookie ears", but was wondering if anyone had any ideas about a little female we have in rescue. 

Mandy is a white GSD with a saddle. It's very very faint, but it is black & tan, not just biscuit colored. Can anyone lend some insight - we've wondered if she might be a mix, but her body type is pure GSD. Sorry, no picture . . .


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## DancingCavy

We had a post about dogs like that a little bit ago. Basically they're not whites (gentically). Just extremely light tan (cream) dogs with black saddles. 

Thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=475921&page=1#Post475921


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## Chris Wild

Dog's can be severely lacking in the expression of black markings. Saddles, masks, mantles can all be reduced to very small size or even missing altogether. There are "solid" tan, red, cream colored GSDs thare are genetically black & tan, but their black markings are so faint as to be almost nonexistant.


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## RubyTuesday

It's a somewhat old thread, but very interesting...

Is the masking gene responsible for all solid white dogs of any breed (excepting albinos), such as Samoyeds, Great Pyrenees, solid white American Bulldogs or Siberian Huskies?


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## Chris Wild

I don't know. I haven't studied the genetics of other breeds. Possible, also possibly not. The different breeds often have very different modes of inheritence for color. For example, in most breeds, black is the dominant color. Whereas in GSDs, it's the most recessive. 

I would expect how white works, masking or otherwise, would vary from breed to breed as well. I do know in some breeds, solid white is often linked to health issues like deafness (Boxers and Dalmatians come to mind), but in others it isn't.


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## RubyTuesday

> Quote:For example, in most breeds, black is the dominant color.


I didn't know that. I thought it was usually recessive in canines, but I don't breed, hence my interest is borne of curiosity, not need.

I know deafness in cats is associated with the white spotting gene, rather than the white gene. I suspect it's something similar in canines simply from the breeds where it's color associated (Dals, breeds with harlequin & merle coloring, as well as solid white Boxers & Amer Bulldogs) vs those where it's not(Samoyeds, Great Pyrs, Huskies).

In Dals I don't think the deaf dogs are solid white, but I believe they're usually(always?) blue eyed. I think this is true of the other breeds with color associated deafness, though not true of blue eyed Sibes, even when solid white.

Fascinating stuff. I really should seek out a good book.


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## Ceph

the cause of the white in Shepherds is not the same as the cause of the white in the doberman which is not the same as the cause of the white in the boxer.

White at the extension locus - such as shepherds - tends to leave the skin pigmented...and for the most part the whole nose will be black, the pads will be dark, the lips will be black, and you may see some dark spotting along the belly.

You can see that on both of my dogs : 










and also here as a puppy : 










In boxers I believe the cause of the white is the spotting locus. It's pretty easy to tell spotting whites from extension whites just by the nose : 










you'll see that the black nose looks spottier there. I do however think there may be some boxers effected by the extension locus...I think that may explain why some of them seem to have spotted skin underneath the white, and why some are so affected by hearing problems (dogs that have the spotting locus reaching into the ears) and why some are not (might be dogs that have genetically colored ears but is masked by the extension locus).

Dobermans I believe have white caused at the Color Locus - which is the same locus where albinism is caused. I dont know that they are 100% albino as the blue in their eyes does count as pigment - and I'd be curious to see if the health issues are caused by bad breeders or the color...but as it stands they tend to have alot of issues.










This link is to Sheila Schmutz's genetic research...it has a couple of explanations and some hypothesis for the different causes of white in dogs.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/white.html

And as far as the biscuiting in whites - I tend to think it is the expression of the intensity locus. Dogs that code for what would be deep red in a B/T (the recessive trait at that locus) are going to have more biscuiting (like you see in Ruby) , and whites with little biscuiting (like Leo) would express a higher level of dilution, which is more dominant at that locus.

I hope I articulated that all right and that it helped









~Cate


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## RubyTuesday

Yes, & thanks. That's an interesting link, too. Good info, but it's got me more curious rather than less, lol.

It seems color associated deafness is at least similar to the gene in cats with color associated deafness. Do you know if the spotting gene is causative for hearing loss or just tightly linked to it?


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## Ceph

Not 100% sure, but if I had my guess it's causitive. I imagine if the spotting locus reaches into the ears than it's going to cause deafness because loss of pigmentation in the inner ear does that.

~cate


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## RubyTuesday

> Quote:...(dogs that have the spotting locus reaching into the ears)...


I'd always thought it was probably due to being closely linked, but that statement started me wondering.



> Quote:...if the spotting locus reaches into the ears than it's going to cause deafness because loss of pigmentation in the inner ear does that.


This statement seems to further confirm it's causative rather than simply linked. That's very interesting. Thanks.


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## flores780

*White and black mating*

My beautiful Sable 6 yr old Bitch is the result of an all white male parent crossing with her all black female mother. The five resulting pups consisted of 2 all black and 3 sables.


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## Catu

flores780 said:


> My beautiful Sable 6 yr old Bitch is the result of an all white male parent crossing with her all black female mother. The five resulting pups consisted of 2 all black and 3 sables.


The father was a sable carrying black, recessive for the white masking gene. The mother was black recessive.

The black puppies inherited a black gene from each parent, while the sable ones got a sable gene from the father (dominant) and a black gene from the mother.

There is no way to know which one carries white unles you cross with a white or a known white carrying dog.


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## Holmeshx2

Catu this was all discussed and if you look its a 4 yr old thread not sure why in the world it was revived.


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## Catu

I noticed, that's why I only posted about the last comment and not all of the above. I did it mainly for myself, it was a funny genetics exercise


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## ChristenHolden

Seen a litter like this mom solid black dad solid white. The pups we all almost solid black and the others were black and tan but the tan was very light so would prob be considerd silver and black. No white pups were born out of a litter of 14 or 15.


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## iBaman

Not to revive this any further, but is breeding them the only way to know what 'color' your wgsd is?


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## juliejujubean

My brain hurts after this.


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## codmaster

ChristenHolden said:


> Seen a litter like this mom solid black dad solid white. The pups we all almost solid black and the others were black and tan but the tan was very light so would prob be considerd silver and black. No white pups were born out of a litter of 14 or 15.


Would have to know the genotypes of the parentsand how color is inherited (probably multiple, interacting genes) to even guess how the mating would come out and what one might expect in the color of the pups!


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## Tim Connell

Maybe this is where the elusive, rare ZebraShepherd comes from.


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## codmaster

Heh! Heh!


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## Scarlettsmom

Chris Wild said:


> White masking gene is recessive, however it is located on a separate locus from the gene for general color. A white dog is genetically a regular colored GSD... could be black, sable, black & tan or bi-color. But, as the white masking gene causes the entire dog to BE white, we don't know what color that white dog carries, or would be if it didn't have the white masking gene. That's why knowing the color of the white dog's parents would be helpful.
> 
> Black is recessive to all other colors. So a black dog cannot carry genes for sable, black & tan or bi-color. It can carry the white masking gene. If it carries 2 copies of the white masking gene, it would BE white.
> 
> So White bred to black could produce any colored GSD. Without knowing what colors the white dog carries it is impossible to know what. If the black dog does not carry a copy of the white masking gene, which it probably doesn't, white puppies are impossible. If the black dog does carry a copy of the white masking gene, than statistically 50% of the litter would be white and 50% of the litter would be colored. What colors, again there is no way to say.
> 
> But no, there will not be any black & white puppies. The genes don't work that way.


Thank you for the clearest explanation of the masking/recessive gene scenario. I FINALLY understand it.


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## Castlemaid

Tim Connell said:


> Maybe this is where the elusive, rare ZebraShepherd comes from.


Ha! Don't joke about stuff like that, LOL. Next thing you know half a dozen board members will be posting threads about how they decided that their next GSD will be a Zebra!


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## Tim Connell

Castlemaid said:


> Ha! Don't joke about stuff like that, LOL. Next thing you know half a dozen board members will be posting threads about how they decided that their next GSD will be a Zebra!



You are probably correct...hahaha !

It would definitely be far more exotic than those run-of-the-mill dogs though!


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## pmelone

*white with black ?*

My white german shepard gave birth two weeks ago to nine black puppies two of which had white on their chests. The Father was a papered blk german shepard owned by my son. adessa I've been told is either full german shepard or a quarter wolf. The puppies are awesum! _ (****Removed by ADMIN***)_


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## Catu

pmelone said:


> My white german shepard gave birth two weeks ago to nine black puppies two of which had white on their chests. The Father was a papered blk german shepard owned by my son. adessa I've been told is either full german shepard or a quarter wolf. The puppies are awesum! _ (****Removed by ADMIN***)_


It's sad to be reminded of how, outside our little bubble, this is how 95% of dogs are bred.


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