# Training or Abuse?



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

OK, I am starting a new thread. 

You guys can talk about what is training and what is abuse.

*No names, no trashing each other, just straight forward discussion.*

So is a knee to the chest abuse or a correction?

Is a smack between the ears a correction or abuse?

Is stepping on toes training or abuse?

Is there a difference between a correction and training.

Now that should be enough to get you guys started.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

the Monks of New Skete use to recommend that but I think they changed that, I've seen better ways to correct a dog jumping on you.

Its been awhile since Mrs MaxGunnar smacked me between the ears but let me tell you...once is enough


stepping on toes means I'm a lousy dancer


I only correct when I'm sure the dog understands the command or accepted behaviour


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

So is a knee to the chest abuse or a correction? 
Out of anger or stupidity frustration of corse 
If the dog understands and learns. If its reasonable fair not a problem with me. 

Is a smack between the ears a correction or abuse? Out of anger or stupidity frustration of corse 
If the dog understands and learns. If its reasonable fair not a problem with me.

Is stepping on toes training or abuse? Out of anger or stupidity frustration of corse 
If the dog understands and learns. If its reasonable fair not a problem with me.

Is there a difference between a correction and training.
The way I train yes I teach/train and make sure the dog is clear and knows the exercise then if the dog decides to disagree he gets a reasonable correction. If this doesn't work it tells me the dog doesn't understand what the correction is for or doesn't understand the exercise. We need to figure it out.
Let the psychobabble begin


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

The only one I would have issue with is a slap between the ears. I think a dogs head should be off limits, I hate to see dogs cringe away from peoples hands. 

Such a hard question, what is maybe training to some is abuse to others, all dogs are different, I have one dog who I've never had to do anything harsher than a strong verbal command to one who I have to be more commanding. I've had to physically shove her away from a window when she sees someone putting something in my mail box. She totally tunes me out when people are near the house.

Stepping on Cyrus's toes was the only way to teach him to pay attention enough to do an in-about turn. Learned that purely by accident.

I think causing serious pain is abuse, stringing up a dog is abuse, sharpening a prong collar is abuse and hitting a dog in anger is abuse. To me there is no reason to hit a dog with a hand or to kick a dog.

When we have unrealistic expectations of our dogs and use force to try to get them to conform, that I think is abuse.

If your dog is afraid of you, it's abuse. There is a huge difference between fear and respect.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

knee to the chest, very abusive.
smack between the ears, very abusive.
stepping on toes, very abusive.
is there a difference between a correction and training? when you're correcting aren't you training them not to do something?

when my dog isn't paying attention i touch/tap his ear and he usually looks at me. i use my pointer finger. when i say touch or tap his ear it's so gentle. at the same time i touch him i say "hey" or "hey, pay attention. i'll also tap/giggle his leash for his attention.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

OK, I want to know of those who have responded who does SchH and who doesn't.

Val


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadknee to the chest, very abusive.
> smack between the ears, very abusive.
> stepping on toes, very abusive.
> is there a difference between a correction and training? when you're correcting aren't you training them not to do something?
> ...


Just curious are you doing SchH with a high drive dog?? I think there needs to be a distinction here.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

There's 2 ways to correct, one is a naggy ineffective one, the other
is not.

Once a command que word is understood, and then dis-obeyed, a correction is required. A correction can be as little as a No! or Ach!,
withholding a reward, be it treat, toy or praise, to the dreaded level 10 enforcer. Depending on the dog, it's biddablity, hardness or softness, it's dominance or submissiveness. Any compulsion training without first insuring the dog knows the command thru marking, repetition and praise is abuse, even if it's witholding praise. A command must be learned first, and that means praise before compliance, because one must reward trying. It's only encouragement. Any ineffective correction is abuse, because it is ineffective. Any correction administered not in a matter of fact and calm way, but mixed with anger is abuse. Any correction after the fact, thus ineffective is abuse.

Any inconsistency in calm leadership is abuse. Any begging the dog to behave is abuse. Any rambling reasoning with words is abuse.
Any anthropomorphizing is abuse. Any non persistent and inconsistent training is abuse, not training. 

Any positive only never going to correct behaviorist mumbo jumbo,
poo poo corrections, while using No! or Ach! or withholding rewards
is both self delusional and abusive.

It ain't rocket science. I don't care if you click or not, that's just a marker. Whether the reward is praise, treats or toys, correctly timing rewards for desired behaviors is positive re-enforcement, thus poor timing is abusive. If you play the game correctly, there is little need for correction, but when the game is known, and misbehavior is not corrected, then you are only uping the ante for the level of correction that will be effective. 

Compulsion is just a tool. A full toolbox is better than one half empty.
In 38 years of hosting dogs, this is what works quickest and safest for me. The bond can too easily be destroyed if we are not very judicious and fair. 

Smacking any pup for anything is abuse. If you can't outsmart a pup, you should not be expecting a healthy relationship with a good dog. The shelters are full of failures, not from bad dogs, but poor handlers.

My $.02.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerOK, I want to know of those who have responded who does SchH and who doesn't.
> 
> Val


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXt8M3sissU


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Joker, very nice long bite from what I know about SchH. You dog was under control at your side waiting for the command, and fired out to the helper and got a very nice grip o the sleeve.

The reason I asked the last question is I want to know if there is a difference in thinking between say AKC OB people and SchH people. 

Do harder dogs need harder corrections? 

Val


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I've done Sch localy, dropped due to other obligations, play at it every day at the local park


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> Do harder dogs need harder corrections?
> 
> Val


imho with experience with to BYB GSDS and two working line GSDs I would say you have to be assertive at times with the working lines.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Referencing the thread discussing the USA member who was "charged" with kicking another competitors dog......

I was having some fun on that thread writing about subjectivity and hearsay vs. objectivity and fact. 

Then the theme of the posts took a turn towards a focus on "kicking"....for some, with reading comprehension issues, they interpreted my writing as if I condoned this type of act...when in fact, I never actually used the word "kick"??? I was asked to outline when I felt it was acceptable to "kick" a dog. With respect to training my baby girl, for me personally....NEVER. 

As a follow-up to my position, it is not my place to cast the first stone. I am in absolutely no position to judge those who may use compulsion methods. Dr. Raiser's use of his foot, knee, fist or E-collar is the example I employed. Some of his methods may not be for me and my baby girl, but what I do know to be absolute is that he is an amazing man for whom I have a great deal of respect....and no business second guessing his methods.

With respect to that notion, what I had stated in previous posts is this....a trainer must use common sense, and do what is acceptable for them and their dog. Paraphrasing....My comment was with respect to not drinking the training Kool Aid (if you have comprehension issues here or don't understand the reference look-up Jim Jones/Jonetown on Google...its basically the notion if someone tells you to jump off a cliff, do you?) The aspect of those exchanges that tickled me is that my aggressor and I actually agree, he just didn't get it....which does not change the fact that he is an awesome Helper who I admire!!!!

...but here is the key that will take us full circle...follow me now....if a reader can see "kick" where "kick" was never typed (outside of the BOI quote for you technically accurate types)....isn't that the same as seeing a "kick" that never physically happened? Anyone getting this?

** removed by Admin. Personal attacks are not permitted on this BB**

I am just a GSD trainer Wantabe....totally amused by the politics of the USA...hey, lets give peace a chance.

I love SchH, and all you crazy people.

Wayne


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

What d0g said.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The other thread has been locked. Please do not bring it up again. Stay on topic.

Thank you,

Admin

*******


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerJoker, very nice long bite from what I know about SchH. You dog was under control at your side waiting for the command, and fired out to the helper and got a very nice grip o the sleeve.
> 
> The reason I asked the last question is I want to know if there is a difference in thinking between say AKC OB people and SchH people.
> 
> ...


Do harder dogs need harder corrections? In obedience JMOP no.
In protection maybe depends on the exercise and method.
If you put a dog in a level of drive beyond its capability if thinking you may need to use a hard correction. We try and train in drive with peeks visualize a graph you escalate the dogs drive to the point where it is still clear in the head and can teach/train. Try not to go to the point where frying or hard pinch corrections are necessary but it can happen. Next time the same or maybe up a notch raising up and up a little each time so the dog is still able to learn but able to be under control and clear just on the brink of spontaneous combustion. 
Than you got Schutzhund!


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerOK, I want to know of those who have responded who does SchH and who doesn't.
> 
> Val


OB with a working line.

I'd love to do SchH with my next pup and If doing SchH with a pup means I would have to be harsh I would be a wash out.

I have a friend that does SchH and does very well, and I have never seen her raise a hand to any of her dogs.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> ** removed by Admin. Personal attacks are not permitted on this BB**


Oh please, I made no reference to names in any of my writing, and I am pointing out the author was correct...lets take this another way then shall we...at least for my own amusement.

With respect to training or abuse, and in regards to what was edited in my pontification from above.....I had made reference to a post that I found to be amazingly accurate in its observation while at the same time delightfully ironic in its delivery. In reference to that which spawned this discussion, there was only one post that truly identified the real issue regarding my friend. In looking for the forest amongst the trees, this insightful poster hit the proverbial nail on the head. The issue isn't whether my friend did or didn't "kick" the other competitors dog...and the aspect of issue has not been disputed....is that he lost his cool. He was unprofessional and acted in an unsportsmanlike fashion....to this point all agree, even my friend. Now here is the part that delights me...albeit in a sick and twisted way.....the post was accurate in its observations of that fact, while at the same time, amazingly complicit in the same issue it critiques....in that it was so abrasive and full of personal attacks, specific names had to be edited. My point is this....if poster aggressively condemns this conduct on the SchH field, how is it any different here? (Lisa if you edit this again you're no fun at all!!!! I have made it vague and objective)....(I know, I know, you'll delete this post and that post and send me a warning, or maybe even ban me....I'm just making the community think is all....I enjoy holding up the mirror so we can clearly see the hypocrisy of it all)

Respectfully and forever yours,

Wayne


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Wayne,
Val was kind enough to restore my post on the other thread. We did have some discussion about what a "personal attack " is and she re-considered her position. I am sure she was concerned that the thread would get nasty and that was her motivation in editing my post and I thank her for doing that. 
People are welcome to go read my opinion on the matter. That's what it is, an opinion, but maybe some only want to hear one side.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Not in schutzhund, but I do see that dogs require a wide range of disciplinary measures to get the job done. I do believe in implementing one GOOD correction if that will eliminate the need for a bunch of nagging ones which in turn teach the dog to ignore small corrections, thus escalating its working level. I think correction level also depends on the situation. If there is a question of life-safety, I will err on the side of too much correction than too little (and then examine what needs to be done on the training end to make sure we don't end up in that situation again). Renji will pull me on the bike, running, with his prong on the live ring, if he sees something worth running after. Deer? No. Birds? No. Other dogs? A little, but he's easily dissuaded. DF driving down the street? You betcha. He blew off my orders to slow down and hold steady and instead buckled down, accelerated, and began to pull me despite the prong. There was traffic involved, so Renji got one heck of a correction that got him to slow down a little. His working level is high, he's stubborn, and this scenario is not something we've dealt with before. I hate to say it, and this is probably a good sign of my (lack of?) skills as a trainer, but he needs some darn good physical corrections at times. If I had gotten him as a puppy and had him in classes from day one, I do think that would have made all the difference. I so wish I could have had him since 8-10 weeks as I have no doubt things would have been much smoother. I also have no doubt that many owners of passed-around working line dogs feel the same way.

I also feel that if you're going to add compulsion, you better make sure the motivation is ramped up high and the positive reinforcement far outweighs the negatives.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Wayne, I restored Anne's post. In my over exhuberant effort to keep the thread from turning into a bash fest, which I could see it was headed in that direction I took my frusteration out on her post, instead of going through the whole thread.

Now if you want to talk about training, corrections or what is abuse feel free to post on this thread.

Wisc.Tiger - Admin
Val


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: VandalWayne,
> Val was kind enough to restore my post on the other thread. We did have some discussion about what a "personal attack " is and she re-considered her position. I am sure she was concerned that the thread would get nasty and that was her motivation in editing my post and I thank her for doing that.
> People are welcome to go read my opinion on the matter. That's what it is, an opinion, but maybe some only want to hear one side.


Anne,

I believe you were correct in the key aspects of your observation on the issues, and only passionate in your position. There is no doubt in my mind my friend lost his cool....I do not recall anyone arguing that point. I LOVE blunt folks who are smart enough to see the real issue. Beyond his lose of composure....the rest is open to debate....and I was not there, however, it does seem to be growing into an urban legend.

No harm, no foul between you and I as far as I am concerned....I simply enjoy SchH training....and writing. I love finding the humor in it all.

Wayne


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Wayne......

If you want to communicate with Anne, please do so in PM's or email. 

This thread is not about what was discussed in the thread that I closed.

Once again, you can discuss in general what is training, corrections or abuse.

Wisc.Tiger - Admin
Val


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

My background is primarily in obedience - practical everyday "you gotta live with this dog" obedience as well as behavioral consultations and competition obedience (AKC style) through Utility Dog level. I dabbled in Schutzhund but unfortunately the club in our area disbanded years ago.

Personally I think that corrections are way over-used in most training, and too many people are training with the biggest goal being titles and recognition for the *human* without too many concerns for the dog. I've seen it in various venues, be it schutzhund, AKC obedience, agility, herding, even tracking. These sorts of people often achieve high rankings in the dog world but fail to gain the respect of those who know how harsh they are on their dogs. I'll never forget the schutzhund seminar I attended and how the guy giving it (a world competitor) laughed while he talked about how the sharpened prong collar made blood spurt out of his dog's neck, and the belly-band that he stretched his dog out with for tracking caused sores on the sheath and his dog had explosive diarrhea from the stress. Now THESE are, to me, obviously abusive methods and it's unfortunate that this guy achieved his goals using these methods.

I use corrections but I try to only use them when I'm sure that the dog is aware of WHY she's being corrected and HOW to avoid the correction in the future. That means I have to really work at giving my dogs understanding - training consistently and compassionately so that the dog understands what behaviors I want from her. I think that corrections need to be balanced according to the dog's natural "toughness" - my old chow was very sensitive and a slight nudge to her was a correction, while my young German/Czech line GSD is a tough little bitch and wouldn't even feel a nudge. I can thump on her with a riding crop and she thinks it's a game (we do this 3-4 times a week - she tries to kill the riding crop and I try to smack her as often as I can - she LOVES the game). For many dogs, smacking with a riding crop would border on abusive. It stings. For Tazer, it's a blast. Trick was the same way when she was young and used to love for me to smack her with sticks or pieces of hose. In fact, I used to rile her up for agility runs by smacking her around and getting her excited. She would even bring me the hose when she wanted to play rough.

I also tend to pound my dogs on the head - again, not as correction but in play. They have all come to view this as an affectionate behavior and actually push their heads toward me when I'm pounding on another dog. So I've taught them that my hand reaching for the head is not a bad thing, and if I do give a quick pop on the forehead (again, Tazer would be the one to get that) it doesn't create any fear in my dog even if it's a correction. I can't pop my dog with my hand hard enough to hurt her more than it hurts me (I have rheumatoid arthritis and my hands are extremely sore most of the time). 

I don't think stepping on toes has a very valid place in training - bumping the toes with your foot works well if you feel you need to touch the toes to move a dog over. I use my feet a LOT to move or nudge or bump a dog. People watching might interpret it as kicking although it's not hard in any way - it's just easier for me to use my feet than my hands much of the time. A little bump on the side and my dogs move away nicely without even glancing at my foot. They're not the least bit afraid of my feet because I don't use them for hard corrections.

There are some things in competition training that I have a hard time with, and one of those is the forced retrieve. I taught my first three dogs to retrieve using the ear pinch, which was the established method back then. I never liked it and in fact my third dog (my first chow) was stoically stubborn and would sit there with her eyes half-closed as if trying to pretend I didn't have a hold on her ear. Later I had to go back and re-train her using a positive retrieve and then I finally got a good, enthusiastic response from her (she retrieved FAST and without hesitation). Since then I've trained other dogs using a reward system without any force fetching and it has been effective. But I find that many, if not most, people still use the forced fetch as the way to teach retrieving. It's one of those things that I think says a lot about the type of trainer a person is - if a title or ribbon is so important that you're willing to pinch the ear or toe, then I think the priorities are wrong. 

I'm very glad I evolved from the original, compulsion-based training that I learned back in the late 80's and moved into the highly positive training that is more popular now. I do think corrections have their place, but I also think that we should always keep in mind that our dogs are creatures who feel pain and discomfort, and we should do what we can to teach them in ways that avoids making them feel that pain and discomfort.

Just my honest opinion.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerWayne, I restored Anne's post. In my over exhuberant effort to keep the thread from turning into a bash fest, which I could see it was headed in that direction I took my frusteration out on her post, instead of going through the whole thread.
> 
> Now if you want to talk about training, corrections or what is abuse feel free to post on this thread.
> 
> ...


Sorry to be a bother.......just like to write and make humorous observations.....and when you mix that with my love of SchH....bam! Critical mass is reached and you have instant pain in the a$$!

Wayne


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

OT- Melanie, I PMed you but you are over limit!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the question - do harder dogs need harder corrections? Not in my experience - a "hard" correction on my "hard" dog = nothing but excitement & eagerness.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"Do harder dogs need harder corrections? In obedience JMOP no."

Agreed - we do SCH. Does not matter whether a HIGH drive dog or not. How do you train? That is the key.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I've noticed that my high drive dog has needed a much sharper correction than I would have thought because anything less was meaningless to her. This was done under the direction of a trainer I trust. And the thing was, she only needed it once. We put a sharpened pinch on her once. She was blowing right through the regular one. She never yelped, but after that she paid attention, and has not needed it since. It did not feel abusive at all because she was unaffected by a lower level of correction and I saw the choice was- nag nag nag which I know would ultimately make the problem worse, or send a firm message. I have always believed you should use only use a correction when you know they understand, but then you should use the level of correction is necessary to get the message across. Otherwise you're teaching the dog they don't REALLY have to do it.
A sharpened pinch I'm sure would be abusive in some situations and with some dogs. But don't think it was with Lucy in the situation it was used. Like I said, never had another occasion where we even considered going that route.
This is Schutzhund we're doing.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As someone pointed out earlier, all corrections, including some that others might not consider bad, become abuse when done in anger. When does withholding food to help motivate a dog stop being a tool and start becoming abuse? What about crating or confinement used to create drive? When does spanking a child (no, I don't want to get into a discussion about what is appropriate punishment for kids) become abuse? In the eyes of some the fact that we even ask our dogs to work is abuse. Just points to ponder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't do SchH yet, but I see corrections the same way I see commands - the dog needs to understand what it means and the correction or command needs to be clear and assertive without confusing or abusing the dog. For all the handlers I see giving repetitive, nagging corrections that never really register with the dog I see the same amount if not more handlers giving commands over, and over, and OVER. Like how many times should you scream FUSS! before the dog actually heels? Anyway, I have no objection to physical corrections as long as it is not done in anger and the dog is not cowering afterward. My Kenya is incredibly soft so a "correction" to her is a stern "eh eh!" and even a "NO!" will have hear tail tucked and ears flat, whereas some other dogs might need a hard pop on the prong just to get their attention. Training is all about communication. It's up to the handler to understand their dog and know what they have to do or not do to effectively communicate what is appropriate and what is not.


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## Annikas Mom (Jun 10, 2004)

I have learned through my years of having GSDs that once a dog understands what you are asking of him any correction that doesn't get your point across is abuse. Before I am flamed let me explain my thoughts... By the time a correction is appropriate for a dog, I have raised it from birth or 8 or so weeks old and it is my job to learn what makes my dog tick. It is my job as a handler to learn my dog's strengths and weaknesses and from there as a handler it is my job to know what is an appropriate correction. 

My female that passed away last year was one who would offer a sit or down if she was not sure what I was asking of her, so I knew that I had not been clear in training a new behavior to her... all of her foundation was taught with positive reinforcement and I found as we were making the transition to true training for preciseness in her behaviors and being trial ready I had to be quite strong with my corrections because I had made everything a game until she was about 18 months old. 

My male that I have now has had the same type of foundation put on him with one exception, I always would wait him out for the precise behavior I was looking for and then reward. I have found this has worked really well for us. He has been very slow to mature and I have had to slow down with him but at the same time this is a dog that again needs a strong correction. I remember walking out on the field one day for protection, he was over 2 years old and knew he had to heel calmly to our spot on the field. He was totally blowing me off and with a pinch collar on, I am giving it my all to get him to pay attention. My trainer said stop nagging him and make your point, LOL!! I thought my arm was going to fall off at the shoulder!! My trainer came behind us took my line and gave my boy 2 solid corrections, mind you my trainer out weighs me by 80lbs, from that day forward I have never had to deal with that behavior on the field. 

Sorry for the rambling, my point is each dog is different in what they need for corrections. Abuse is when you are correcting for a behavior that has not been learned. I agree any correction given out of anger or frustration is abuse. At the same time I do not believe that a knee, up to your chest, if a dog is going to jump on you is abuse, I tend to turn my body to the side but that is my choice. In the end abuse is when a handler trains every dog they own the same. I could go on and on but I hope I have made sense and everyone understands where I am coming from, LOL.

ETA: I train in Schutzhund.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1OT- Melanie, I PMed you but you are over limit!


Sorry, I tend to not pay much attention to my PM folder - I just cleared out some messages so maybe there's enough space now .. *L*

Lucina, I'm truly sorry to hear that you chose to use a sharpened prong collar on your dog. Unless it was a matter of life or death for the dog, I can never condone using a tool of that magnitude - especially not to "train" in a dog sport activity.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
> Lucina, I'm truly sorry to hear that you chose to use a sharpened prong collar on your dog. Unless it was a matter of life or death for the dog, I can never condone using a tool of that magnitude - especially not to "train" in a dog sport activity.


She didn't act as though it bothered her at all. Not a yelp, nothing. What would you have done differently?
And please don't say it like that. I did not get up that day and decide "gee, I think I'll hurt my dog today". 
I asked you what you'd do differently not to be argumentative, but because I really want to know how you would have handled it.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Actually, a smaller prong, fitted correctly, is what we have used on our competition males.

Not sharpened. It the fit is there and the training/handling is there - no issues.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Lucina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
> ...


E-Collar, properly fitted and dog properly conditioned, problem solved.

let me repeat, I never apply correction to a dog that doesn't understand the command, another lesson I learned was not to apply correction unless I was sure the dog was not injured. I sent Roxie out on a jump, she missed it, hit the board and jumped back, I sent her out again and she balked and I corrected, she went over and back and that's when I noticed she had a nasty scrape that needed treating. Had to start over to get her enthusiasm back up


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

First than all, congratulations at everyone for discussing this matter in a mature, non-extremist way. Two or three years ago I'd have thought it was impossible to even hint than anything but clicker training was non-abusive on a public board on the web.

If harder dogs need harder corrections? Yes and no. There are dogs who physically have a higher pain threshold, then yes, if you are going to use a physical correction it has to be harder for this dogs. Certain pit-bull come to my mind, there's was no use on using physical corrections on this dog because they were not even registered.

Now, hard and high drive are two entirely different matters, I know most of you already know that, but it seems like both had been confused and mixed on this thread. Some dogs who are hard (or harder for their handlers, its subjective) sometimes need harder corrections to understand who is in charge, but then you never needed harder corrections from the start, you needed a better handler for that dog, so the answer should be again No, harder dogs don't need harder corrections. And in high drive dogs 90% of the time you don't need to use hard corrections, the desire for the reward is so high that as long as the dog understand than the behaviour is the key to achieve is goals, they would do whatever you ask, even behaviours that may sound as incompatibles, like the out, going back to the handler from the revier or the fuss following the helper. Dogs are able to learn than to wait or to move away from the reward is the way to get it. Some dogs that I see gettting harder and harder corrections are just inmature ones that _can't wait!_ and all they need is a bit of time to grow older and to understand the concept.

The real problem, when you really start to need to become physical is with dogs with real low drive, being prey, food and social drives. It is the moment, when you are out of tools to motivate the dog, when things become rougher, because even withholding food long enough for the dog to be hungry enough to work for it starts becoming abusive. As I choose not to own/work that kind of dogs I let the answers for others more experienced.

I do Schutzhund (or IPO, which is basically the same)


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

**post removed by Admin. Off limit topic**


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

**** Quote removed by Admin**

Wayne, I know I have lost my cool one too many times. And anyone who can sit back and say they have been 100% in control of their emotions throughout their lifetime, without a single emotional breakdown, or a fit of anger and rage is either a hyprocrite or an angel. And I will bet on the first one. Everyone has their bad days, we are only human.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

**Quote removed by Admin**

**** your going to shake every drop outta the gas can art ya IBFTL


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

If someone kicks a dog in the head, regardless of whether it was in the name of "training" or whether the person did it out of frustration or anger, the dog still got kicked in the head. Is there really a need to analyze why it happened, and should the consequences for the human be different if the reason is different?

Yes, people get frustrated and angry. That's not an excuse for abusive behavior toward our dogs. And we do some things in the name of training that we later look at and realize that they either were abusive or bordered on abusive. I trained three of my dogs with ear pinches before I just couldn't do it anymore. Using pain as a training tool is a personal choice and I just don't choose to use it much anymore. The times when pain is an option are for behaviors that are necessary for the good of the dog (not competition), such as teaching a solid recall or how to walk calmly without pulling me. But even then, I would choose tools that don't have potential to leave wounds on my dogs - a sharpened prong certainly could (I've seen wounds from dull prong collars). I would much rather use a shock collar, probably adjusted to the minimal amount needed, for training than to use a sharpened prong (which is pretty much like having a collar of nails).

And if anger enters the picture, a good handler ends the training right then before they get to the point where their frustration allows them to treat their dog abusively.

Melanie and the gang


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I take back my congratulations. It seems that there are people who just can't stay on topic.

Could those posts be moved to "the other thread" so those of us who are sharing and learning from the original question can keep learning?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Even with a dog with a high pain threshold, you can use the e-collar on the lowest stim level as a nudge. This is what Gabor would do on Drigon - his Troll gson. Very high pain tolerence. But, Drigon was very black and white on corrections. He would take a correction if it was warrented (I am not kidding). But, if he felt it was unfair, he would let you know........

Goes back to the dog understanding what is being asked.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

In the situation I was in I think an e-collar would have been awkward. I had both hands occupied with other things. I could not have managed it. Besides, I think it is important to remind everyone that what I am talking about was a one shot deal, not a regular part of training.
I'm glad to hear the reference to pain in the dog. I caused her no pain that day. Of this I'm certain. So I will rest easy. All I did was wake her up. She woke up, got a piece of hot dog, and that was that. 
I think my trainer made that decision knowing I did not have what it took to give the level of correction that would be required with the prong I had. That decision has made the need for corrections less and less. I feel in this case, with this dog and this handler it was the right choice, and I'm not going to spend another minute worrying about it.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Lisa,

No issue. I would look into the smaller prongs - better than the normal size.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Thanks. I will.


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

This is a interesting post for me because i am still trying to define in my own mind what "strong leadership" really is. I mean I know what it's supposed to be- I've read about it and I've seen it but as a person that has always trained soft dogs with totally positive methods, Radar has really made me examine the whole "training vs abuse" thing. Radar is doing great on the SCH field but as far as manners around the house he has been getting quite rude! He is 8 months old and his exuberance has caused a few problems including some really deep scratches on my daughters (one of my daughters does most of his training on the field but I help with the day to day stuff) No matter how many books I've read it took me getting really mad to step out of my normal comfort zone and give Radar a couple of hard corrections that I would have considered abusive with any of my other dogs. It was like a light bulb moment for Radar.... no sulking, he was just like - oh, ok you don't want me to jump any more! I can't train him the same way I have trained other dogs he is a much harder dog. Knowing this and knowing that we want to compete with him I am trying to decide how far we will be willing to go with him using compulsion for proofing. One on hand I hate to do anything harsh just so we can earn a higher score but on the other had I see how he lights up when we get to the SCH field and I think to him competition will be a blast. One of my dughters competed in gymnastics and made the choice to experience daily pain to improve her skills... but it was her choice. I just hope Radar will be to "tell" us how far he wants to go. I know for sure that when he is in drive he does not take subtle cues and we will have to use everybody part we have to get our message across and still hope he even notices!

which is abuse? (this has been my mental fight with myself!)

letting children get mauled by an over exuberant dog?
leaving a dog in his kennel most of the day to avoid his rudness?
a hard correction that finally get the point across? (and yes I was mad!)

is it possible using my foot on Radar is ok but would be abuse for any of my other dogs (or did I drink the cool-aid?)


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

I forgot to add that when Radar was younger he attended a 100% positive puppy class and also a beginning class. Here he is at his first puppy class:


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

I train and teach motivational however there also needs to be physical interaction with a dog/pup animals/dogs learn by demeanor and physical responses using reasonable physical responses to maintain order is acceptable and needs to be applied or you could end up with a monster. You have to keep order in your house just be smart and do it with thought not anger or frustration.
Again JMOP


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86Even with a dog with a high pain threshold, you can use the e-collar on the lowest stim level as a nudge. This is what Gabor would do on Drigon - his Troll gson. Very high pain tolerence. But, Drigon was very black and white on corrections. He would take a correction if it was warrented (I am not kidding). But, if he felt it was unfair, he would let you know........
> 
> Goes back to the dog understanding what is being asked.


Exactly! If you need to raise and raise the pain stim to reach the dog, you should look for other options instead of fighting the dog you are supposed to work with, not against.

I completely understand wath you mean of Drigon taking corrections only if he feels they are fair, I have one of those too... Nothing better to teach me to never loose my temper.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

This is an interesting topic. In my opinion training and correction are two different things. TRAINING is teaching a dog what is expected. Corrections are applied when a dog UNDERSTANDS what is expected and chooses not to comply. What actions are effective and need to be used depend entirely on the individual dog and individual handler. It's easy to point to some methodology and scream abuse, but not many have handled a truly hard, dominant dog in a high state of drive. 

With that being said, I have learned over the last two years that it is much easier to lay proper groundwork and work WITH a dog, as opposed to AGAINST a dog especially when they are a REAL dog (meaning high drive, strong and hard).


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## JulieAnna (Oct 13, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerOK, I am starting a new thread.
> 
> You guys can talk about what is training and what is abuse.
> 
> ...


I train in Schutzhund.


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## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

Good point Lisa. Anything in excess or used because the handler has not been properly trained can become a crutch or abusive.

From my humble experience of owning a working line dog and actively participating in Schutzhund for almost 2 years I have learned different dogs need different corrections.

I would rather LEARN how to give properly timed corrections rather than resort to force. A well timed, "NO!" is preferable. If I can't LEARN to use a proper voice correction I can't use force.

I'm lucky that I haven't found anything that my dog won't do for me using positive motivation and mild to moderate corrections. 

I have decided that I will not use an E-collar in Schutzhund. Is it abuse? No. But do I want to shock my dog for a fun sport? No. Will I use it when camping or off lead hiking? Yes.

I don't want to hit my dog either. Have I hit her? Yes, hard on the head the day she jumped up when I had a mug of scalding tea. To this day (several months later) I feel I could have handled the situation better.

In the end I do this for fun. It gives me another venue to explore how magnificent, strong, and hard working Phantom is and how I can learn to bring it out further in her. Force does not factor into our fun time together.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerOK, I am starting a new thread.
> 
> You guys can talk about what is training and what is abuse.
> 
> ...


well yes i would say that all of the above are either abuse or harsh correction. a knee to the chest would be reasonable because you are protecting yourself and correcting the dog at the same time.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: laukaouda
> I have decided that I will not use an E-collar in Schutzhund. Is it abuse? No. But do I want to shock my dog for a fun sport? No. Will I use it when camping or off lead hiking? Yes.










wow that is exactly what i have decided to do with my e-collar. PSA, like schH, is supposed to be fun for the dog. there are some dogs that are exceptions to the e-collar in those sports but i have chosen to leave mine at home..now on walks/hikes and out 'n about i will use it.


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