# 10 week old puppy question- reserved?



## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

My husband and I are looking into a puppy and we think we found the one we want but I have a question-

The puppy we are looking into is 10 weeks old and we met him for the first time yesterday. He was very very friendly but also reserved. He did not act at all scared though. Reserved is the best word I can describe him, lol.
He did come up to us and he really loved our 3 year old daughter, sat down next to her right away and let her pet him and he licked her etc. but he did not RUN up and jump in our lap, paw, nibble etc. I have been around a lot of pups and most of them seem to do that behavior. Is it normal for a 10 week old pup to start understanding who his "people" are and recognize he didn't know us so he acted a bit more reserved- again, he didn't act scared AT ALL? He was running and jumping around with his sister but as soon as we separated them he stopped.
We see him again today-- are there any "tests" you would recommend us to do with him?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:thinking:Are you looking for different answers that what you've already received?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-into-buying-german-shepherd-questions-2.html


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

Here is a photo of the dad, the mom and of the puppy with my daughter, yesterday


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Have you checked back into your other thread? Lots of people have posted about this behavior. How do his parents act?

Also, since you haven't bought him yet. Another BIG thing is to make sure the parents have had their hips and elbows xrayed and are OFA certified. Hip and elbow dysplasia are VERY common in GSDs and you want to make sure the parents are clear of these debilitating diseases.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

No, just looking for other opinions. Everything I read online says it is perfectly normal for a puppy of his age to act this way. but everything you all say makes it sound like he is going to end up killing someone and should just be put down now. looking for another opinions-- has anyone ever had a pup act like this at 10weeks?


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

His parents act great and they said he is normally super friendly and even more playful then his sister. But that recently he does take a little time warming up to "new" people


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

A 10 week old puppy who's reserved? Never heard of such thing - puppies love everything and everyone at that age. I didn't read your other thread, but that's not a good sign. I'd go another direction.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

The breeder should be able to evaluate his temperament and should help you pick out a dog that is suitable for what you're looking for. You should not be the ones doing any sort of tests unless you are extremely dog savvy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> No, just looking for other opinions. Everything I read online says it is perfectly normal for a puppy of his age to act this way.* but everything you all say makes it sound like he is going to end up killing someone and should just be put down now. l*ooking for another opinions-- has anyone ever had a pup act like this at 10weeks?


Whoa!!! Not one person said or even insinuated that! What we said was go to a reputable breeder. What was said was a puppy who was shy and fearful as a puppy would most likely be the same as an adult. Nobody said anything about him being viscious or needing to be euthanized.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Plus if EVERYONE on this board is giving an opinion and it's all leaning towards one direction, maybe there's something to what everyone's saying. 

You've got an entire board full of german shepherd owners. We've raised them from puppies to adults and all over again. Listen to what people are trying to tell you without getting too offended even if it's not what you want to hear.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

A 10 week old puppy with the right temperament and nerves should be happy go lucky, not worries/cares in the world, SPECIALLY in his sorroundings/his home. When people come to see our puppies we warn them that they will be getting nibbled on, scratched from the puppies jumping up on them, etc. etc.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Guineveree1990 said:


> No, just looking for other opinions. Everything I read online says it is perfectly normal for a puppy of his age to act this way. but everything you all say makes it sound like he is going to end up killing someone and should just be put down now. looking for another opinions-- has anyone ever had a pup act like this at 10weeks?


 
LOL! My boy was reserved as a pup. But don't let that fool you, they do come out of their shell and show their evil puppy side as well every now and then. 

My boy is 27 months now. He hasn't killed anybody that I know of, unless he ate all the evidence. He is aloof towards strangers and/or other dogs. Meaning he doesn't care one way or the other. He was never a waggily butted puppy towards strangers, but he isn't people aggressive nor is he dog aggressive. 

My boy loves his family. My daughter lives in Louisiana and comes and visits a few times a year. He remembers her and gets excited everytime she drives down the drive way. 

I did/do take my dog for formal training and I socialize him (taking him to the feed store, pet stores etc.) at least once a week.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

So you started an entirely new thread because you weren't being told what you wanted to hear? Shoot, most people just stay on their original thread and argue, so I'll give you credit for being a little more creative.

You know what, no one can interpret the true pup behavior via a forum. Can you video your meeting today? Let people SEE this pup's reaction and maybe you'll hear what you're wanting to... and maybe not.

And for goodness sakes, at least bother to read what your other thread responses are.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

Lilie---

That is what I want. I have owned two german shepherds, the first one was an adult rescue and she was very very friendly with her family but also very reserved of adults (she had had 7!! homes before me which is what caused some of her reservedness). The second I raised from puppyhood and he never really got out of the puppyness his whole life. never was reserved around anyone, ever. 
I am looking for a dog that will be our family dog but that will be reserved with others. Not aggressive at all, but reserved. It is a quality I like. HOWEVER--- if it is already in this 10 week old pup I'm wondering if it is too early for him to feel the "stranger danger". 

when I meet him again today I will take him out by myself and see how he does after a few minutes. at his age he should, even if reserved, warm up and become jumpy & puppyish with me after 10 minutes of being alone with me, yes?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Guineveree1990 said:


> No, just looking for other opinions. Everything I read online says it is perfectly normal for a puppy of his age to act this way. but everything you all say makes it sound like he is going to end up killing someone and should just be put down now. looking for another opinions-- has anyone ever had a pup act like this at 10weeks?


First, I think it is exaggerating to say people think he should get put down.

Second, yes my dog was like that at 10 weeks. We went to pick him up at 10 weeks and he was very bonded to his sister and human family. He was not very comfortable and playful around us, like a puppy should be. We've spent his ENTIRE life socializing him like crazy- he's been through many fear stages and is still not comfortable with all people, especially men and kids he doesn't know. We live in an area where we can take him lots of places so he is constantly around people and meeting people. Because of our diligence socializing him, he can be out in public and we can see if he's getting uncomfortable with someone petting him and redirect him to us. If someone else bought him that didn't put in all the work we did...who knows.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm not worried about socializing him. our dogs come everywhere with us. He will get out a lot and meet new people, places and things from a young age. I'm only worried because you guys are acting like his behavior is totally not normal and that he will be "weak-nerved" and "fear-aggressive" no matter how much he is socialized. 
Obviously if that is truly the case I will not get him. 
That it why I am trying to get others opinions.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Kaos was a little over 10 weeks when we got him from our breeder. He warmed up immediately to us. He was a little taken back with our 18 month old son at the time. But not reserved, sat and watched him a lot and was very tender in his reactions to him. So for him "reserved" was not normal. He didn't become "aloof" or however you want to word it with knowing his people and being watchful of outsiders until almost 2 yrs of age. 
Our foster/that we adopted....he was super happy at the Rescue leaders house with his 2 brothers. When we crated him to go to our house he acted timid, tail tucked, etc. Once we got him home and settled that ended immediately. I think sometimes faced with new situations puppies can be shy if that is their nature....however in my mind for what it's worth a puppy in his home environment shouldn't be wary at that age.
You are the only one seeing the puppy and able to see the whole picture, it is hard for everyone on here to offer an opinion when some of your wording immediately puts people who have been around this breed at a bias.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

I will see if I can record him today so you can all see  again, though- he doesn't act scared at all


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> I'm not worried about socializing him. our dogs come everywhere with us. He will get out a lot and meet new people, places and things from a young age. I'm only worried because you guys are acting like his behavior is totally not normal and that he will be "weak-nerved" and "fear-aggressive" no matter how much he is socialized.
> Obviously if that is truly the case I will not get him.
> That it why I am trying to get others opinions.


With all due respect...weak nerved or fear aggressive are big deals and tend to be seen more often in dogs that are not bred with the whole dog in mind. If you are truly concerned and don't like the info you get here, yet don't feel confident in assessing the situation on your own....call a behavioralist or a trainer to come with you and meet the puppy.
I also think your older dog should be given a meeting with the puppy before you make a choice. Male to male, can work great. But even a dog who "is friends with everybody" having another dog in their space is completely different. If we ever add another it would be a female to compliment our male.......


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Guineveree1990 said:


> I'm not worried about socializing him. our dogs come everywhere with us. He will get out a lot and meet new people, places and things from a young age. I'm only worried because you guys are acting like his behavior is totally not normal and that he will be "weak-nerved" and "fear-aggressive" no matter how much he is socialized.
> Obviously if that is truly the case I will not get him.
> That it why I am trying to get others opinions.


That's great, but my point was that if you have a dog with weak nerves, you will have to work extra hard at everything. Why not stack the deck in your favor and go to a good breeder or get a slightly older dog whose temperament has already been evaluated? I foster GSDs and can tell you that so far all of them have been amazing with everyone they meet. Why support a bad breeder? If this breeder isn't testing the parents' temperaments or the puppies' then it's just as much a guess as getting a rescue- except a slightly older rescue will be better evaluated. 

If you are set on getting a puppy from a breeder- SLOW DOWN- DO YOUR RESEARCH! Are these parents' hips even tested?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> I'm only worried because you guys are acting like his behavior is totally not normal and that he will be "weak-nerved" and "fear-aggressive" no matter how much he is socialized.
> Obviously if that is truly the case I will not get him.
> That it why I am trying to get others opinions.


Post his pedigree!!!! Give more info on the parents, the breeder, etc! People here do NOT have enough info... they can only go from *your words *and the word you used was "reserved." Many saw that as a red flag apparently.

Just slow down! You'll have 12+ years to deal with whatever nerves you end up with, so why not take the time to do this right?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Guineveree1990 said:


> I'm not worried about socializing him. our dogs come everywhere with us. He will get out a lot and meet new people, places and things from a young age. I'm only worried because you guys are acting like his behavior is totally not normal and that he will be "weak-nerved" and "fear-aggressive" no matter how much he is socialized.
> Obviously if that is truly the case I will not get him.
> That it why I am trying to get others opinions.


If you are not getting him from a real, good, breeder, then the chances of him being weak-nerved or fear-aggressive greatly increases. Stable dogs are BRED that way, through solid lineage, not throwing two random dogs together. You can socialize the **** out of a nervey dog and get NO WHERE. I have a backyard bred German Shepherd who has gone through thousands of dollars worth of vet bills in his first two years and has aggression issues related to them. He isn't particularly nervey, but he isn't as stable as most well-bred dogs, either. And if I could have changed where he came from, I would in a heart beat.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Guineveree1990 said:


> I'm not worried about socializing him. our dogs come everywhere with us. He will get out a lot and meet new people, places and things from a young age. I'm only worried because you guys are acting like his behavior is totally not normal and that he will be "weak-nerved" and "fear-aggressive" no matter how much he is socialized.
> Obviously if that is truly the case I will not get him.
> That it why I am trying to get others opinions.


It is a very real possibility. Genetics (what the puppy was born with) are the platform and training is just how that platform is molded. 

A shy puppy can most definitely become a fearful dog as an adult even with a ton of socializing.



chelle said:


> Just slow down! You'll have 12+ years to deal with whatever nerves you end up with, so why not take the time to do this right?


You couldn't be more right.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

If he is wagging his tail when he comes up to you and acts confident, I think he is just a mellow puppy and will be a mellow dog. He also may have been playing before you got there and was tired. I don't think that the behavior that you are describing is cause for concern. If he is cowering, submissively peeing, or running away, I would be concerned. If the parents are happy, social, mellow dogs, then he will probably be the same. Not every puppy necessarily bounces off the walls.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> but everything you all say makes it sound like he is going to end up killing someone and should just be put down now.


Um... excuse me, but no one said anything of the sort. You asked for advice and opinions, and then in return you come back with this outrageously twisted snip? You're welcome.

I love it when new people come and ask for advice and opinions, then completely ignore everything we say because they don't like it, and start another thread hoping to hear what they want to hear this time.

Listen--many of us are experienced GSD owners. We've raised puppies to adults, some of us have bred many litters and observed puppy behavior many times over. This is why you came here, yes? We're trying to help you make a decision that's going to affect you and your family for the next 10+ years. Do you want a GSD with a stable, secure, confident temperament, or do you want to spend the next 10+ years managing a "cautious" dog? If you're going to ignore our advice and buy from a backyard breeder, at least *try* to select a pup with a solid temperament. Get a "cautious" GSD pup from a backyard breeder and you can expect issues. 

Reserve or aloofness with strangers is not the same thing as caution. Caution is fear-based. Reserve is confidence-based. Once a mature GSD has bonded to his family, he has no need to fear, nor solicit attention from strangers. They mean nothing to him. Not a threat, not worthy of his attention, just... nothing.

Now, should you take this "cautious" puppy home with you, he will no doubt bond with you very quickly and be a normal, playful puppy. How he reacts to new places, people, and situations after he goes home with you will be anyone's guess. He may get over his "cautious period" quickly and become outgoing and confident, given proper socialization. Or he may continue to be hesitant. It's hard to say at this stage, but you want to tip the odds in favor of having a confident, stable temperament.

You sound like you want a dog that will be aloof with strangers and protective of your home should someone break in, since you mentioned that scenario a couple of times. The best candidate for that is a pup who, during what should be a "cautious period", remains outgoing, curious, and confident. 

So, it may be considered "normal" for a 9-12 week old pup to be cautious, as you've read on the internet, but that doesn't mean *every* puppy is. If you want a solid, stable temperament in a dog that will be protective of your home, you want the pup that remains confident and outgoing DESPITE the fact that it's "normal" for a pup to be cautious at this time. Do you understand what I'm saying? 

If not, I've wasted enough time procrastinating from work. :crazy:


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Reserve or aloofness with strangers is not the same thing as caution. Caution is fear-based. Reserve is confidence-based. Once a mature GSD has bonded to his family, he has no need to fear, nor solicit attention from strangers. They mean nothing to him. Not a threat, not worthy of his attention, just... nothing.

Quoted from Freestep....

That is the best explanation I've heard given to the situation of adult GSD....I just tell people Kaos is "rude" he could give two licks about getting attention from people....if he knows them they get a lick and sniff and then he is off to his bed. If he doesn't know them, they get 2 sniffs and he lays down in the room we're all in and watches until he doesn't feel needed...then off to bed.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

meldleistikow said:


> If he is wagging his tail when he comes up to you and acts confident, I think he is just a mellow puppy and will be a mellow dog. He also may have been playing before you got there and was tired. I don't think that the behavior that you are describing is cause for concern. If he is cowering, submissively peeing, or running away, I would be concerned. If the parents are happy, social, mellow dogs, then he will probably be the same. Not every puppy necessarily bounces off the walls.


The OP said the breeder told him/her that the 10 week old puppy takes some time to warm up to new people. That's just as big of a red flag as everything you mentioned. Maybe not to the same degree, but definitely still a red flag for a puppy.

Just like GSDBESTK9, a breeder, mentioned...



GSDBESTK9 said:


> A 10 week old puppy with the right temperament and nerves should be happy go lucky, not worries/cares in the world, SPECIALLY in his sorroundings/his home.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

Well then I guess caution was the wrong word-- lol. I said many times there was zero fear going on. he was not scared one bit, just reserved. Anyway heading over to see him now-- will let you know how it goes.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

He did come up to us with his tail wagging. he just didnt RUN up and jump in our laps. I have already said this too. He was more mellow then what I am used to in a puppy. anyway back later!


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## Snarly (Sep 7, 2011)

Wow, seriously. What is the point of asking questions if you ignore EVERYTHING that anyone says. You haven't answered questions, nor even acknowledged most posts. Sigh.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Good luck and try to be objective. All puppies are cute... they might not be as cute when they're a snarling or cowering 5 year old though. Try to keep that in mind.

With that said.... anyone want to bet you come back in a couple hours with a new puppy??


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Snarly said:


> Wow, seriously. What is the point of asking questions if you ignore EVERYTHING that anyone says. You haven't answered questions, nor even acknowledged most posts. Sigh.


 
Exactly, why did you come here with these questions and not listen to the answers? There are many knowledgeable people here who have, breed, train, etc GSDs for decades- maybe you want to sit back and take some advice here. You will have this dog for 10+ years, SLOW DOWN and don't rush this decision!

Also, you have not answered my questions about the parents' hips/elbows.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Honestly I don't think that the pedigree matters one way or another. It is possible that the pup is normally outgoing and confident as the breeder said, and the OP just happened to be visiting as the pup was having an off day. That is one reason that normally breeders do not let buyers pick their own pups - one short visit does not allow for people to see the full range of the pup's personality, but the breeder who has been with the pups day in and day out for the last 8 weeks would have better and more accurate insight into each pup, what they are like, and how their personality, strenghts and weakness will mesh with what the buyer is looking for. 

What I have seen reading around on the internet is that many breeders will excuse fearful, shy, timid, insecure behaviour as 'normal' puppy behaviour, when as others keep saying, it is not. ESPECIALLY in their own home, around the security of their own people and their littermates. Breeders who do puppy testing normally will bring the pups to a new place they have never been to before, and have an experienced stranger do the test. Even then a confident, solid pup is little fazed by all the newness and carries on with the business of exploring the world as usual. Some pups may show a bit of hesitancy here and there, then recover, that is normal too. What I find to be a red flag is when people rationalize shy, hesitant behaviour as normal due to the pup's age, or any number of other reasons. As in, "normal" for a pup to be attached to 'its' people - yes, but that does not mean that the pup should not be exited and happy to go meet new friends. 

To me, bottom line, is that a person cannot go wrong with a confident, outgoing puppy that loves everyone. But a timid more reserved puppy . . . could be problems later on regardless of the amount of socialization and rationalization that the owners put into the pup.


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## Snarly (Sep 7, 2011)

Or answered a few peoples questions on the pedigree.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

I just went back to the original thread and it sounds like he wasn't so confident the first time they met. I would never get a puppy that didn't come right up. They don't have to be jumping around everywhere, but they should be confident and curious. Thanks for directing me back to the original thread. It sounds like no matter what people say, she is going to get the puppy. I hope it ends up working out for her.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Listen. My first GSD, I paid $350 for her from a BYB. There were 5 pups to choose from. I chose her because she was the one that would quickly return to me when called and she was a bit bigger boned than the others. She was a long coat as well, but I didn't even know that they existed at the time. The others would run around chasing each other and then approach me when their 5 second attention span became directed at me. I observed and played with the pups for over 2 hours, asked the breeder which were his top picks. He said mine and one other based on the coloring and size.  

I took my girl home at 9 weeks old. By 15 weeks, I struggled taking her anywhere. She was EXTREMELY fear reactive. I went through classes, 4 different trainers, a behaviorist, even 4 week boarded training. It is genetic, and could not be trained out of her because she was born with it. We have learned to manage it, and have taught her to control it, but she will NEVER be a go anywhere type dog, and I've spent 4 times what I've paid for her trying to address her fear issues. 

So my point is this, at this age, it can be difficult to read a pup unless you are very knowledgeable about the breed. If your breeder cannot specifically tell you what you can expect from this pup, then you are at the wrong place. Your breeder should be matching YOU to the pup based on what you're looking for. YOU should not be guessing whether or not this pup will work for you. This is a long commitment. Don't you want to be CONFIDENT in the choice you make? How many knowledgeable consistent opinions do you NEED??


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, good luck. You have been given some good advice. Temperament problems abound in the breed as well as health problems. Unless I were getting an adult I would want to share everything I could about the parents and their own pedigrees as well as the individual pup.

I have had repeated success with the 2 male 1 female combo but the male-female realtionships have always been a bit "easier" in my house. Right now I have a 5 month old puppy and an 8 year old male and I can tell that some interesting times are ahead as the puppy is not submissive and appears he will grow larger and stronger than the old guy. ......... I will stay in control of things but also realize they may never be able to be loose together without supervision.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> looking for another opinions-- has anyone ever had a pup act like this at 10weeks?



So basically you just want to ask until you get the opinion you want to hear? Ok, that's one way to seek advice I guess.

I'm not currently a breeder, but have bred in the past (too much time away from training, so I leave it to those who enjoy that time up to their ankles in mess ). When we did have a litter, we made sure to get them around as many people, things and places as was feasible and safe for a young pup. Bringing friends in (lots of hand sanitizer on site), letting them meet our cats and our chickens, getting used to riding in a car, being around vacuum cleaners and active kids, etc. I don't think we had a young pup that wouldn't just fly to meet new people by the time they could run. That's what we produced and that's what I expect to see when I go look at a litter, regardless of whether they are 7 weeks or 11 weeks. By the time they are about 16-18 weeks you start to see some more grown up responses, but up until then I want a happy, eager puppy, especially on it's home turf!
The last puppy my husband bought was 11 weeks old when he went to see the breeder. He was actually going to see a 1yo male, but while he was there she said that she had a little female that was a handful and might suit him. She had brought her with him to the park to meet up(it was more convenient than going to her house) and this little girl got out of the car, blasted into a dead run and leapt up and blasted him in the chest with all 4 paws (he had kneeled down so as to be a bit less intimidating), needless to say he came home with 2 dogs.
Now while I don't expect quite that level of confidence from every single pup, I do want them to be pretty outgoing and nonchalant at that age. 
It's your money and your time, but you are hearing from some pretty experienced GSD folks what to look for in a pup. You can interpret it anyway that works for you.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> Anyway heading over to see him now-- will let you know how it goes.


Don't hesitate to come back and ask for help and advice in training and socializing, and how to deal with whatever behavior issues should come up. Hopefully you will listen to the good information and advice experienced folks have to give.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I think that I understand where the OP is coming from. It sounds like she has a very good idea of the good qualities of the breed--the loyalty, the reserve, the intelligence but may be unaware of the less than desirable traits such as weak nerves and health problems that are the results of overbreeding. 
Here in Seattle, I don't see as many GSDs as in other parts of the country and people with nervebag dogs don't tend to take them out. I got Havoc from a very reputable breeder and value the health assurances and proven temperament of his pedigree. Even with that knowledge, he's a challenging boy at times. I really would hesitate to bring in a BYB pup to a home with a three year old. It's not that I feel that the dog will be a danger but that if the dog does have a temperament issue it would be very difficult to overcome it while dealing with the needs of a young child. Why risk it? Your chances for success are much higher with a reputable breeder or rescue.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

can you see what the pup is like OFF his home grounds? its always a good idea to take the dog/pup off its environment to see how it acts in a strange place. some dogs/pups will act fine in the home area, but once in a new place you can really see their true personality.

my one dog was reserved at 8 weeks old, he was not a hyper bouncy pup. my other pup was off the wall hyper.. some dogs just arent as high energy as others as pups.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

Saw puppy again. Spent a little over 30 mins with him and took him on a short walk. He recognized us right away and was very friendly. Did great on walk too, seems super smart and picked up sit right away. He loves my daughter but is also not too rough. Did jump a bit on her though. They also took him to the vet today for shots etc and showed me note from vet saying he seems like a good pup and healthy. I do think he will be our new pup! Will pick him up on the 20th  I think he will miss his sister though, lol


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Why are people so opposed to adopting adult shepherds that have a more "what you see is what you get" personality? (I know rescues can have their problems too...) But if I had children, of any age in my home, I would be much much more inclined to adopt a mature dog. Just the landshark stage alone would be enough to discourage me from bringing home a new puppy with young children... weird.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

sashadog said:


> *Why are people so opposed to adopting adult shepherds that have a more "what you see is what you get" personality?* (I know rescues can have their problems too...) But if I had children, of any age in my home, I would be much much more inclined to adopt a mature dog. Just the landshark stage alone would be enough to discourage me from bringing home a new puppy with young children... weird.


Not me. I LOVE the adult rescue shepherds.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

We went though the puppy stage with our aussie with two very little kids and managed. Yes, it is a pain for a while but toally worth it. Especially with an aussie who was very landsharky and always wanting to herd. Worked through it and always always exersiced him. Sure it will be a bit tougher as the gsd is going to double my 60lb aussies weigh but at least this time around we have a large yard and a nice trail near house


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Guineveree1990 said:


> Saw puppy again. Spent a little over 30 mins with him and took him on a short walk. He recognized us right away and was very friendly. Did great on walk too, seems super smart and picked up sit right away. He loves my daughter but is also not too rough. Did jump a bit on her though. They also took him to the vet today for shots etc and showed me note from vet saying he seems like a good pup and healthy. I do think he will be our new pup! Will pick him up on the 20th  I think he will miss his sister though, lol



That vet certificate doesn't really mean anything. The parents' health needs to be tested. Hip dysplasia is genetic. Did you see the parents' OFA numbers (a way to check their hip xray results)?? This is VERY IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE STOP IGNORING MY POSTS ABOUT THIS!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

*Guineveree, *We would like to see the pup's *pedigree*, and the *OFA status* of the parents. Did the breeder provide you with this information yet? Have the parents at least been x-rayed, or did the breeder say something like "all the dogs in the pedigree have good hips, so our dogs should have good hips also" ?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> Sure it will be a bit tougher as the *gsd is going to double my 60lb aussies weigh* but at least this time around we have a large yard and a nice trail near house


120 lbs ????????? Wowza.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

sashadog said:


> Why are people so opposed to adopting adult shepherds that have a more "what you see is what you get" personality? (I know rescues can have their problems too...) But if I had children, of any age in my home, I would be much much more inclined to adopt a mature dog. Just the landshark stage alone would be enough to discourage me from bringing home a new puppy with young children... weird.


Not me either. After fostering GSDS from 9months-2 years, I realized this is the way to go! There are so many amazing dogs that are given up for various stupid human reasons, moving, too much time, etc, some of which are even raised with kids. I can't believe how fantastic these dogs that I've fostered are and really can't fathom how someone got rid of them. They've been good with my dog, cats, kids we meet, strangers, etc. And they've all been housebroken!! Doesn't get much better than that!


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

He is 20lbs now at 10 weeks. How big will he get? Dad was 110. And yes parents were xrayed but haven't seen pedigree. Can I look up pedigree with the akc registration? And sorry if I miss posts or bad spelling, on phone.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I used to take a "note" to my high school to excuse my absence the prior day. I was usually absent because I preferred to be playing frisbee at the local park.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

wow 110 lbs is big. My dog was about 20 lbs at 10 weeks and is 74 now. His parents were in standard though.
Thanks for answering about the hips- that's great that they were xrayed. I'd ask them for the OFA number so you can look them up on the website and make sure the results were good!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

no, your GSD should NOT double your aussie's 60lb weight. That would be a way oversized GSD or a very fat one. GSD's are the breed known for being landsharks and will probably be much worse than your aussie. 

You obviously made up your mind long before you posted here so good luck with your new puppy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You are getting a backyard bred dog that will likely have lifelong issues with temperament and health.

I don't get it. Why come on here and even ask if you aren't willing to listen and you've already made up your mind?

If the only choice I had due to lack of finances was a backyard bred oversized sickly dog, or a rescue (which is already neutered or spayed, saving you a couple 2-300 at least) who has already lived around kids and is known to be fine with them, I'd take a rescue every time.



> showed me note from vet saying he seems like a good pup and healthy.


**Oh well that settles it then! The vet says it "seems like a good pup"!

On another note, we adopted out a Border collie mix which was clearly going to be a medium sized dog, she happened to have dew claws on her back feet, and when they took her to their vet, the vet proclaimed that the dog was "part Pyrenees" because, as you know, "only Pyrenees" have dew claws on their back feet! Except...so did my Sheltie mix (38lb. dog), and so does our purebred Dachshund (12lb. dog). 
So...vets are awesome, and great, but many times do not know one dog breed from the next or the characteristics of those dogs. I'd never rely on a vet's testimony as to what breed a dog is, let alone many other things...


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> You are getting a backyard bred dog that will likely have lifelong issues with temperament and health.
> 
> I don't get it. Why come on here and even ask if you aren't willing to listen and you've already made up your mind?
> 
> If the only choice I had due to lack of finances was a backyard bred oversized sickly dog, or a rescue (which is already neutered or spayed, saving you a couple 2-300 at least) who has already lived around kids and is known to be fine with them, I'd take a rescue every time.


Amen to that!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> He is 20lbs now at 10 weeks. How big will he get? Dad was 110. And yes parents were xrayed but haven't seen pedigree. Can I look up pedigree with the akc registration? And sorry if I miss posts or bad spelling, on phone.


How big? Well I'd say big enough to completely knock over that sweet little girl in the pic... looks like he already can. 

I've tried to be fairly civil. Now you're tickin' me off. You initially posted with frikkin EBAY dogs, then turned away from that for whoever this person is. You don't know about the xrays, only that they were done and you don't have an interest in the pedigree???? You didn't ask or ??? You don't want to reply to many posts that don't suit what you want to hear. You're a grown woman, a mother to two little ones and you can't be bothered to do your homework because you just want this that much. Maybe you should spend some time on this forum reading about all the aggressive issues people are dealing with. The biting. The reactive dogs. The weak nerved dogs. Because you just might be subjecting your family to that, by acting so hastily and setting your standards so low.

I'll be the first to admit I own one byb dog. The byb was my very own son. It's a long story I won't bore anyone with, but I went in with eyes wide open. I have no young children. I'm not rich, but unless it's insanely expensive, I can afford whatever comes up with his health. (and has already cost me a few pennies.) I can afford the *time* _and_ *$$* for training. You may need both of those things in spades buying from an unknown. If I had young kids, there is no way in hades I'd bring in a dog of totally unknown nerve and temperment, not to mention health. 

Good luck. It's pointless to say anything else -- me or anyone -- because you only want to hear one thing -- go for it. If you come back here and post that you had to re-home, I'm going to be mean.

Good luck.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> He is 20lbs now at 10 weeks. How big will he get? Dad was 110. And yes parents were xrayed but haven't seen pedigree. Can I look up pedigree with the akc registration? And sorry if I miss posts or bad spelling, on phone.


So do the parents have OFA numbers, or were the x-rays simply looked at by the breeders' vet?

You should be able to look up the pedigree by AKC number. By the way, you should be looking at the pedigree before you even LOOK at the pups, not the other way 'round.

And yes, 110 is a bit oversize or overweight for a GSD. A male GSD should top out at about 90 lb according to the standard.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

sashadog said:


> Just the landshark stage alone would be enough to discourage me from bringing home a new puppy with young children... weird.


For me personally I would much rather a puppy. Just because you have young children doesn't mean you shouldn't get a puppy  It is called supervision and training of both puppy and child. My 3 year old had no problems with our now 9month old as a puppy because I controlled their every interaction. Now they are inseparable and I have no regrets what so ever about getting a puppy....nothing weird about it


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

I didn't ask for numbers-- only talked to vet that it had been done and they looked good (mom is 6 years old and dad is 2) I can call back tomorrow and get numbers, though. 
And again, I have had plenty of puppies in my lifetime and I am not worried about that with the kids. Will it be a pain occasionally? I'm sure it will. Will it be worth it? Surely. So where do I look up the AKC number? Can you post a link where I would type in the numbers? That would be great. This will be my first AKC registered pup. 
Dad didn't look over-weight, just big. My last GSD (the one that acted like a puppy his whole life) weighed 95lbs. What do all your dogs weigh? 
So--- what exactly makes someone a "back-yard breeder" and what makes them a "real breeder"? I guess all my puppies have been "back-yard bred" as I have never paid over 500 for any of my pups and I have never had any health issues with them. Actually the only dog I EVER had issues with was the first GSD that I got from the GSD rescue in Reno, NV. They assured us she was dog and kid friendly-- well after a month she wanted to KILL our other smaller dog. Not normal fights, literally she wanted to KILL him. She was great other than that-- I think it had to do with the fact that she had had a lot of homes before that and she was over jealous of me, her "person". Not sure, but it was not fun. Again, never had health issues with any of them. (well we had a total mutt from the pound who got lupus at 6 years old and after treating it for a year we had to put him down)


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## Reeves (Dec 6, 2011)

I've seen some very reserved pups that open up once you get home.

As a matter of fact, Reeves was very aloof and reserved when I got him. He acknowledged me, but didn't really want to interact when I went to the breeder's house. He was the last pup, and at nine weeks old you could tell he was very attached to his people. But he was the last male, so I figured I'd take a shot. It took about 3 or 4 days before his true personality came out. But he's been my little shadow. He's actually got a great temperament. And with some guidance, he's learning that people are great. He'll now greet whoever comes up to him. It doesn't mean he's going to be a bloodthirsty killer, it just means, that base temperament wise, he's more reserved in new situations. He certainly isn't scared, or unsure, but as compared to my last Shepherd, he doesn't dive right into everything at first glance. And I actually like that because Rush was into everything, on everyone ect. Reeves is a bit more of a "gentleman" so to speak. 

Even if it's not a well known breeder, you need to make sure they at LEAST OFA, if nothing else and ask for paperwork on that. If his parents are AKC registered ask for proof there too. In the end, if you can't get proof, walk away, because good breeders will keep all of that on file, and will happily show it all to you. 

Reeves was from the very first litter this guy ever bred. He was just starting out, and even though he was as well versed as some of the breeder's I've worked with, he happily showed me the parent's paperwork/ofa screenings/ shot records ect.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you had read the first response in your first thread, you would know what a "real breeder" vs "back-yard breeder". Please go read the responses instead of asking the same questions over and over and over.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

This is pretty much that personality I am searching for! Our current dog reminds me a lot of your first one, he will dive into anything and love everything and everyone. Not a bad quality but I want one that is a little more reserved. I like how you said it, your "shadow" the puppy reminds me of that. very curious but also wanted to hang out with his owner, and once I took him on a walk he was the same way with me. I know it will take him a few days to warm up once I get him but I think he will be a great puppy. 

Where do I type in the AKC numbers to look them up?


Reeves said:


> I've seen some very reserved pups that open up once you get home.
> 
> As a matter of fact, Reeves was very aloof and reserved when I got him. He acknowledged me, but didn't really want to interact when I went to the breeder's house. He was the last pup, and at nine weeks old you could tell he was very attached to his people. But he was the last male, so I figured I'd take a shot. It took about 3 or 4 days before his true personality came out. But he's been my little shadow. He's actually got a great temperament. And with some guidance, he's learning that people are great. He'll now greet whoever comes up to him. It doesn't mean he's going to be a bloodthirsty killer, it just means, that base temperament wise, he's more reserved in new situations. He certainly isn't scared, or unsure, but as compared to my last Shepherd, he doesn't dive right into everything at first glance. And I actually like that because Rush was into everything, on everyone ect. Reeves is a bit more of a "gentleman" so to speak.
> 
> ...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> *And again, I have had plenty of puppies in my lifetime* and I am not worried about that with the kids....
> 
> I guess all my puppies have been "back-yard bred" as I have never paid over 500 for any of my pups and I have never had any health issues with them....


Your initial post said you'd raised one puppy. Well actually you never said you'd raised it. I was curious and asked you about it, but didn't get a reply, unless it was on the other thread. My point in asking was that you better have some good skillz with these dogs. They're not like raising other kinds of dogs. Yes, mine is a mix, but the more I read, the more I see he is very much GSD, mix or not, and after raising two other breeds from puppyhood, this dude is taxing me. I'm sure glad I had the prep from raising two other pups -- easier pups.

So you've long supported byb's. That's not a cause to brag about. Where are they now? I'm assuming (dangerous I know!) you're likely around 21'ish, only going by your username, so IF that's true, how many years have you had to raise puppies by yourself? And price alone doesn't make a byb. The other guarantees, health testing, pedigree, etc or more importantly, lack thereof the former, makes a byb in large part. Not the price alone.

If my "assumptions" are incorrect, I apologize. You just come across as very young and impetuous.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To the OP...you're excited, we can all tell.
You need to stop...and think...for the good of your family.

You say you've had shelter dogs that were sick and bought lots of backyard bred dogs who were healthy.
Generally speaking, the reverse is true. And when you're talking about a breed so overbred (by irresponsible breeders) that they are allergic, dysplastic, nervous wrecks who come down with degenerative myleopathy (most of these can be prevented by GOOD breeding and knowing your dog's history) you have to be ultra careful about purchasing one of these backyard bred products.

So...the people "going off" are simply wanting to help you avoid the "it's so CUTE" syndrome, yes these dogs are much different than Aussies or any other breed. 
Yes he's a cute puppy. You need to know OH so much more about him than "he's adorable", before you bring him home. 
Listen to those who've dealt with temperament issues and health issues which could have easily been prevented. They only want to save you heartache down the road.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> So where do I look up the AKC number? Can you post a link where I would type in the numbers?


Try looking up by the parents' registered names:

Pedigree Search - German Shepherd Dog

I thought it was the AKC website where you could check a pedigree with the AKC number, but it looks like you have to pay for it there. I know there's another website where you can look it up--can anyone help?



> So--- what exactly makes someone a "back-yard breeder" and what makes them a "real breeder"?


In your first thread, I think the second or third post was a link that will answer your question in-depth. If you had read it then, your questions would have been answered already.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So you decided this was the pup for you during the visit even after all the advice you received and completely ignored? I, for one, am shocked. Yes, that is sarcasm.

Good luck with your puppy. Hopefully he lives a long and healthy life. That's not sarcasm.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Oh, she'll be back. Count on it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Reeves said:


> I've seen some very reserved pups that open up once you get home.
> 
> As a matter of fact, Reeves was very aloof and reserved when I got him. He acknowledged me, but didn't really want to interact when I went to the breeder's house. He was the last pup, and at nine weeks old you could tell he was very attached to his people. But he was the last male, so I figured I'd take a shot. It took about 3 or 4 days before his true personality came out. But he's been my little shadow. He's actually got a great temperament. And with some guidance, he's learning that people are great. He'll now greet whoever comes up to him. It doesn't mean he's going to be a bloodthirsty killer, it just means, that base temperament wise, he's more reserved in new situations. He certainly isn't scared, or unsure, but as compared to my last Shepherd, he doesn't dive right into everything at first glance. And I actually like that because Rush was into everything, on everyone ect. Reeves is a bit more of a "gentleman" so to speak.
> 
> ...


No offense, but saying things like he was a shy at first, but has a great temperament after all makes no sense at all in your specific situation. Your puppy is 2.5 months old and you've barely had him for a full week. You don't know the first thing about your puppy's real temperament unless you really know his pedigree and those dogs in that pedigree. Things change A LOT in those first couple YEARS, not weeks. Come back when he's two or three and report back.

And I apologize if I'm being rude, but it's the truth and these "ask for advice and don't listen to any of it" threads are really annoying.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

To the OP:

I'm not sure if it's already been explained even though I've read through most of the posts, but in case you don't know, people are asking for the pedigree because for those that are familiar with the breed, they will be able to tell you things about your pup that the breeder hasn't or has been unable to tell you. There are many knowledgeable people on this forum that can read your pup's pedigree and tell you what you can expect to see as far as temperament, drive, etc. based on the dogs in it's lineage. This is a very important aspect when trying to find a suitable pup of this breed and why many are asking you to post it before you make this impulse long term commitment.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> no, your GSD should NOT double your aussie's 60lb weight. That would be a way oversized GSD or a very fat one. GSD's are the breed known for being landsharks and will probably be much worse than your aussie.
> 
> You obviously made up your mind long before you posted here so good luck with your new puppy.


Yep.... at this point I guess thats all anyone can say really.


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## Reeves (Dec 6, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> No offense, but saying things like he was a shy at first, but has a great temperament after all makes no sense at all in your specific situation. Your puppy is 2.5 months old and you've barely had him for a full week. You don't know the first thing about your puppy's real temperament unless you really know his pedigree and those dogs in that pedigree. Things change A LOT in those first couple YEARS, not weeks. Come back when he's two or three and report back.
> 
> And I apologize if I'm being rude, but it's the truth and these "ask for advice and don't listen to any of it" threads are really annoying.


No offense taken. You're entitled to an opinion. However, I've worked a lot with German Shepherds, and have helped to raise a lot of litters. I've seen all arrays of personality in a dog... My personal observation of my dog, is just that-- my personal observation, and my general projection of his temperament, is based on the experience I've had in the past working with pups like him. No, I'm in no way saying he won't wake up one morning and be a total **** raiser, and I'm not ruling out the fact that he could become extremely fearful or have any other personality shift in the future either. 

As to the OP, I was simply saying, that just because a pup acts the way it does at it's original home, does not always state how he/she will act when in a new environment, so don't automatically assume, that a reserved puppy= bloodthirsty aggressor in the future, or a pup that's into everything will remain, just that... into everything.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Reeves said:


> so don't automatically assume, that a reserved puppy= bloodthirsty aggressor in the future,


Where are you all getting this "bloodthirsty aggressor" stuff? No one ever said a reserved puppy would be bloodthirsty, vicious, aggressive, or anything of the sort. I'm sort of stumped as to how that leap of logic was made.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

And to answer the major question of the evening -

Yes, it is common for a 10 week old puppy to be cautious and reserved.
It is *only* normal because the back yard breeders have been busy overpopulating the world with dogs that don't meet any sort of temperament criteria. It is far less "common" and "normal" with nicely bred dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Reeves said:


> And with some guidance, he's learning that people are great.


Why did he need "guidance" to "learn" that people are okay? I take it that he didn't think people were okay at first, that he was afraid or unsure of them. It's good that you're socializing and making positive experiences for him, because the pups that aren't so sure of themselves need that. Glad he's doing better and getting over his "reserve". Keep socializing!



> as compared to my last Shepherd, he doesn't dive right into everything at first glance. And I actually like that because Rush was into everything, on everyone ect. Reeves is a bit more of a "gentleman" so to speak.


Well, that's one way to look at it, the less confident pup is "gentlemanly".

You can use euphamisms to describe the less confident pup, just don't kid yourself into thinking you're not dealing with fear. In any litter of puppies, there is a whole spectrum of temperament. The bold pup, the shy pup, the sweet pup, the independent pup... and it's not realistic to expect *any* pup to never experience fear. It may take a bomb going off to scare one puppy and a falling leaf to scare another, but all pups will probably experience fear at some point in their lives. That is okay, as long as you handle it correctly and continue to socialize and expose the pup to new things, so he can build his confidence and learn the world is safe.

For the bold, outgoing pups, though, you don't need to do much confidence building. Sometimes they have to learn that the world ISN'T always safe!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

shaina said:


> and to answer the major question of the evening -
> 
> yes, it is common for a 10 week old puppy to be cautious and reserved.
> It is *only* normal because the back yard breeders have been busy overpopulating the world with dogs that don't meet any sort of temperament criteria. It is far less "common" and "normal" with nicely bred dogs.


*Bingo!!!*


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Shaina said:


> And to answer the major question of the evening -
> 
> Yes, it is common for a 10 week old puppy to be cautious and reserved.
> It is *only* normal because the back yard breeders have been busy overpopulating the world with dogs that don't meet any sort of temperament criteria. It is far less "common" and "normal" with nicely bred dogs.


We need a "bullseye" smiley icon because the above hit one. 

People have seriously low expectations from their breeders if they think an unsure/reserved/"needs time to warm up" puppy is acceptable. Every single 10 week old puppy that's purposely bred should be the complete opposite of that. They should all be curious, friendly, and accepting of everything at that age. Just because the breed standard calls for an "aloof" personality does not mean that puppies that age should even begin to resemble that trait.

People... raise your standards and stop supporting these type of breeders to save a few hundred dollars.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Attached Thumbnails
   

This is my gut instinct only - but I just do not like the look in the dogs eyes. I can see the reserve , which is not manners or aloof or reserve , there is a repressed or suppressed aura about him. See the picture of him laying down beside the girl ? I don't see relaxed or easy , not even in the way he greets her , holding back doing things by half . Since you go out there OP can you get a video clip to see the dynamics of the dog?
Also I would never buy a dog without seeing the pedigree. The dog does not have to be registered but knowledge about the dogs back ground is a must. 

by the way your little daughter is a beauty , wish you well

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pup looks inhibited , maybe it was low dog on totem , maybe it was cowed by the adults .


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I know it probably seems as if some people are being really hard on you on here....but really, they are just trying to help. You wouldn't believe how many threads start out this way.....then the person gets the pup and everything is fine......then a few weeks/months later they start posting stuff like : 

"help, my dog is pooping everywhere, help my dog is tearing everything up, help, my dog is biting my kid, help, my dog has bad hips, Help, my dog just took a bite out of the neighbor, help, I need to get rid of this dog right away....then if we are lucky, we then hear how the dog had to be re-homed or put down. It really is sad to read these stories sometimes.

We just want you to be very sure about what you are walking into. Puppies are cute....and the pictures you posted of the pup are adorable. BUT some puppies grow into a hot mess. Yes, a hot mess even with lots of training. Some do fine, but have major health problems. It's not uncommon to read on here where people have had to fork out *AT ONE TIME* over $5000 grand on their dog. Read about bloat. Bloat is very common in GSD's. Please read the health forum on here. 


I wish you well.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Op, You specifically asked for opinions from breeders. At least THREE excellent breeders have posted. Carmen is one of them. Have you read those posts? There are links under those posts. Click on those and check out the kennels. At least look at the pictures. They show what a well bred GSD should be.

I would also like to see video. In the pictures you posted, your child looks more stressed than happy. When my, then 2 year old, met our puppy, she was all smiles and giggles. Perhaps, you didn't capture those reactions in pics., but could in video. If not, that concerns me. Those pictures just don't elicit the warm, fuzzy feeling I usually get when people post pics of their kids and pups.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> My last GSD (the one that acted like a puppy his whole life) weighed 95lbs. What do all your dogs weigh?


Well, I have 8 GSDs. 5 males and 3 females. 
The biggest male, Ron (Ankormann von der Wolfenbach) who is gigantic in our eyes, weighs 89lbs! The other males all weigh between 75-85lbs. The females range from 50-62lbs. The one big male is from West German Show Lines, as is one of the other males. All the rest are working line dogs and are *correctly* sized.

The question about what makes a backyard breeder has been answered multiple times. You obviously haven't bothered to read the links that others spent the time to post.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Perhaps the puppy *is* the most submissive puppy in the litter..?
It is very hard to "evaluate" a small puppy....without knowing everything that surrounds the birth of the litter.
Pedigree, parents, siblings, environment and breeder's knowledge in raising a litter.
I've seen "dominated" puppies "appear" apprehensive...and change once the pack order or environment & stimuli changed...
_*We've had people_ _come to training with such puppies.....and some are from "well_ _know WL & SL breeders"._
Puppies are sponges....they soak up everything around them.....from parents, siblings, & environment.

I didn't read this entire thread....sorry....I just posted my opinion regarding the possibilities of a puppy showing "hesitation or seemingly reservations".
It is not my intent to condone possible bad breeding......it's just my "opinion" on the speculation of a puppy's behaviour.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I also wanted to add (only my opinion again-nothing more)...that a little puppies *first response* is not what I would base my own personal opinion on..(_unless it is_ _an absolute fearful response_).....rather the puppies "recovery" attitude and the time it takes to recover.

I think all puppies should be energetic, curious and care free.....but being "cautious" in new surroundings should not be an automatic "labeling" of bad breeding....especially if it is completely foreign stimuli for the little puppy.

I've seen too many puppies from many different breedings and breeders to label "first responses" into a group.....JMO


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I can see the reserve , which is not manners or aloof or reserve , there is a repressed or suppressed aura about him. See the picture of him laying down beside the girl ? I don't see relaxed or easy , not even in the way he greets her , holding back doing things by half .


Then again, maybe the pup that is somewhat suppressed will be an easier to dog to train and manage for a family with a small child. The pup that is submissive and naturally inhibited may be less likely to bowl over a child with boisterous behavior and will be more easily intimidated by humans, making him easier to gentle. Of couse such a pup will not grow up to protect anyone from a burglar, but will at least bark to let you know he needs to be protected.

I don't condone supporting backyard breeders, but the pup does need a home and somebody has to love him. Maybe OP really wants a more submissive family dog. If heavily socialized, he may turn out to be an adequate pet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but the pup does need a home and somebody has to love him.


Slippery slope right there. 
Dogs in rescue and shelters also "need a home and somebody to love them", and every time you use the justification that "at least we saved this one", no, not really.
Are you going to be there every single time this BYB pumps out another litter, and buy them all up because they "need a home and someone to love them"?

I'd encourage these folks who buy into the mentality that buying a BYB dog is "saving" them, to go into the "aggression, the good, bad and ugly" threads and see how these situations all too often turn out.

There's an OP right now in another thread contemplating euthanizing their dog because it bit one of the kids.

This particular OP more than likely will wind up in the same situation within 1-2yrs. 

And whoever said that BYB dogs often have pronounced lack of socialization and that'd probably why this dog was reserved and shy at first, is 100% correct.

As mentioned, we handled our BYB rescued litter (orphans) daily, and exposed them properly to multiple stresses before they were 8 weeks of age and it showed. Not a single one was afraid, none hung back when meeting their new people, all were outgoing and curious/friendly from the moment their adopters came.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Slippery slope right there.


I know. But OP seems dead-set on buying from a BYB; no matter how much we try to convince her otherwise, it seems we will not change her mind.

That being a fact, all we can do is hope it turns out okay for everyone. Since this breeder does not seem very reputable, he or she could sell that poor pup to *anybody* with the cash in hand. At least OP is here on the forum asking questions and seeking advice. Granted, she doesn't listen to anything we say, but she seems like she wants to provide a good home, is willing to socialize and train, and isn't interested in breeding or anything like that. The pup could be sold to some other dolt who thinks he knows everything, wants to make the puppy into a guard dog, or use him for breeding, or whatever, and then neglect or abuse the poor thing if he doesn't live up to expectations.

So I don't want to sound like I'm encouraging or condoning buying from a backyard breeder, but she's going to do it no matter what, so I'd rather see the pup go to her than to God knows where--hopefully OP will continue to visit the forums, ask questions, take good advice to heart, and the pup himself can at least have our support.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Slippery slope right there. Dogs in rescue and shelters also "need a home and somebody to love them", and *every time* you *use the justification that "at least we saved this one", no, not really.* *Are you going to be there every single time this BYB pumps out another litter, and buy them all up because they "need a home and someone to love them"?*
> 
> *I'd encourage these folks who buy into the mentality that buying a BYB dog is "saving" them,* to go into the "aggression, the good, bad and ugly" threads and see how these situations all too often turn out.....


I don't want to take this thread too far off the crazy train course it has followed  but I can say the above is not always true. Probably usually true, yes, definitely. Not always.

I personally *did *use the justification above... and I did decide to "save" the pup. It was my son's dogs' oops litter. He sold four of the pups to his friends and a neighbor, so ended up with three he couldn't place. I sold two and kept Bailey. I could've sold Bailey as well, but I trusted myself so much more than a random person. The two I sold did speuter, and I'm still in touch with them and all is well. Those dogs won't breed and they are in happy, healthy, stable, mature homes. I feel they are far, far better off than the shelter. So, I feel, in some small way, I DID save them. And Mr Bails, too.

So the cycle CAN be ended. Plenty of byb's are simply irresponsible.

The OP has stated herself she's always bought from BYB's and they've always been healthy, etc and so on... she doesn't CARE. You can't make her care. I agree with Freestep, sometimes it's a case of the best of two evils, as sad as that may be.

and PS - Lexus was spayed after this litter. I obviously couldn't trust my son to not allow it to happen again, so it was high priority. There will be no more oops.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chelle - I think there is a difference between your son's Oops litter and a BYB.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

Well in reno on vacation now and barely checking in (will read and respond to post when on computer tonight. But to ask a question. What do you all think of Cesar Millan? Is there a thread on him?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Chelle - I think there is a difference between your son's Oops litter and a BYB.


What she said.


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

*A little disappointed...*

The OP...doesn't CARE. You can't make her care. 

I love it when new people come and ask for advice and opinions, then completely ignore everything we say because they don't like it, and start another thread hoping to hear what they want to hear this time.

So basically you just want to ask until you get the opinion you want to hear? Ok, that's one way to seek advice I guess.

Good luck. It's pointless to say anything else -- me or anyone -- because you only want to hear one thing -- go for it. If you come back here and post that you had to re-home, I'm going to be mean.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I've been reading this thread (and the other one posted by the OP) I've vacillated on whether or not to respond...I am hesitant because I'm not responding to the post topic, but rather the way that some members on this board have presented themselves.


There have been some down right mean things said in this thread about the OP...things that are strictly speculation and assumption, where nothing but hurt feelings and avoidance will result. Am I saying that we all have to agree when ever someone posts an opinion or question? No - that's what makes this such a great forum. But it would be nice if we could be more adult and spend more time explaining and a little less time jumping to conclusions about someone's moral character.

I applaud the OP for not responding to the more mean-spirited posts and instead, seeking out information from those members who seemed to want to provide objective feedback. This board and its members have a plethora of information to share - the fact that the OP sought it out and was compelled to seek input is more than most dog owners do. I only hope that he/she is not completely turned off by the reception he/she rec'd and feels that in the future, the forum is a resource she can use again.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

law1558 said:


> But it would be nice if we could be more adult and spend more time explaining and a little less time jumping to conclusions about someone's moral character.


Are you kidding? We've bent over backwards and spent time we should have been working (well ok, maybe that's just me) trying to give the OP, in a nice, "adult" way, some sound and sage advice... and in return, she ignored what was said, did exactly the opposite of what we advised, and then twisted our words grostequely to make us sound like crazy people. Then, to add insult to injury, she again asked the same question that several of us had already answered. 

If that's not enough to frustrate someone into being a little sharp, I don't know what is...

OP has also admitted proudly that she's always bought dogs from backyard breeders, and how healthy her dogs have always been. You think that's not going to push people's buttons? Her posts seem so well suited to irritate and frustrate this forum that I'm almost tempted to call troll, but I honestly don't think she is one. That's why we've all been trying to HELP (to no avail). 

I guess it's fairly normal behavior for a 21 year old (I'm assuming that's what 1990 refers to). I remember being 21, I just had to do things my own way, despite sage advice and wise warnings from those who were more experienced than I. As a result I made some stupid mistakes. Thankfully, I did learn from them!


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you. I've followed this thread since the very first post, and I don't see people being "mean spirited" at all. What I see is a general consensus of frustration. Yes, the OP sought out and asked a legitimate question, but has she at all responded to many of the very legitimate answers? Or any of the legitimate questions aimed towards helping her find a pup that her family would be happy with for years to come? I just haven't seen that...at all. The only posts the OP seems to respond to are neutral posts or those leaning towards the answer she wants to hear.

This is not her first post on the very same question. She got many of the same answers on a previous thread, chose to ignore those responses, and repost in order to fish for a response towards her liking. This is just my observation.

It seems a waste of time to me to join a forum of people with specific knowledges towards a certain concern, and then blatantly ignore solid advice being given. Kinda like walking into a Mercedes dealership and asking them if it's okay to put a Volkswagen transmission in a Mercedes and when person after person tells you that this could be detrimental to the car, you just walk out to the next dealer and keep asking the same question, hoping someone somewhere will tell you the car will run fine. Then a few months later when the car has buckled, you come back to the same dealership, cry about all the troubles you've had with the car, and then want them to tell you how to fix it, because well...you've switched transmissions on other type cars before and never had any trouble right? 

Most members I've met in this forum are here because they enjoy helping others, offering advice, and seeing others raise their beautiful dream pups, and I for one am more than appreciative of the advice and help I've gotten here. But then again, I don't ask questions just to hear what I want to hear. I ask them because I want to know what I'm doing wrong or what I can do to make things better. But hey, that's just me...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Slippery slope right there.
> Dogs in rescue and shelters also "need a home and somebody to love them", and every time you use the justification that "at least we saved this one", no, not really.
> Are you going to be there every single time this BYB pumps out another litter, and buy them all up because they "need a home and someone to love them"?
> 
> ...


I'm curious. Since I know you do rescue what should happen to the BYB's pups? If this person got a pup from rescue then what would happen to the one she didn't take. It would probably be sold to someone else. So to me it seems the cycle just goes on regardless.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> Well in reno on vacation now and barely checking in (will read and respond to post when on computer tonight. But to ask a question. What do you all think of Cesar Millan? Is there a thread on him?


 Oh sure. There were 2455 posts on Cesar at last count.



law1558 said:


> _The OP...doesn't CARE. You can't make her care. _
> 
> _Good luck. It's pointless to say anything else -- me or anyone -- because you only want to hear one thing -- go for it. If you come back here and post that you had to re-home, I'm going to be mean._
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> ...


I think you must mean me, at least in part, since two of the comments posted above were mine.




law1558 said:


> *There have been some down right mean things said in this thread about the OP*...things that are strictly speculation and assumption, where nothing but hurt feelings and avoidance will result. Am I saying that we all have to agree when ever someone posts an opinion or question? No - that's what makes this such a great forum. But it would be nice if we could be more adult and *spend more time explaining* and a little less time jumping to conclusions about someone's moral character.


I'm really not sure how a group of people could spend any _more_ time explaining something. 




law1558 said:


> I applaud the OP for *not responding to the more mean-spirited posts and instead, seeking out information from those members who seemed to want to provide objective feedback.* This board and its members have a plethora of information to share - *the fact that the OP sought it out and was compelled to seek input is more than most dog owners do.* _I only hope that he/she is not completely turned off by the reception he/she rec'd and feels that in the future, the forum is a resource she can use again_.


 She didn't respond because she wasn't hearing what she wanted to. It _appears_ to be very purposefully ignored. Appearances are deceiving, granted, but she even said herself she started the second thread because she wasn't getting the opinions she wanted. 

True on the second part bolded above. It is more than most do. However, she didn't actually seek input - only specific input.

As for the italicized part directly above, I don't think you need to worry. Just a few responses back she was so kind to stop by and ask about Cesar Milan without responding to anything posted prior. Seems like rude board etiquette to me, but I've been accused of that a time or two myself.


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't want to be accused of ignoring anyone - so thank you for your posts.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Yes Freestep - a TROLL. I thought the same thing. The question about Cesar Milan was the frosting on the cake. What does Cesar have to do with the price of beans? Does she want his opinion too? I doubt she would take his advice either. 

It's hard to believe people are legitimate, when they ask repetitious questions, ignore requests for additional information, and then ask about Cesar Milan. I hope Cesar alpha rolls her. Sorry if I sound mean, but I have read EVERY page of this thread. It is enough to make me want to bang my head against the wall. I think people have shown an amazing amount of restraint.

Excellent advice was offered multiple times Shame it wasn't taken.


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## Guineveree1990 (Dec 10, 2011)

You guys are sad. Seriously have nothing better to do then rag on people? I asked one repete question and made it clear I was just looking for a few more opinions on the way the puppy was reserved, which I did get. I do think that most of you are trying to find the possible chance that he will end up being fearful, etc. And saying to look at the posts on here? Of COURSE the majority of people on here will have questions about problems they are having, that's why they are here. The other millions of owners with backyard bred gsds that aren't having issues aren't on here. Sure, there may be 100 people with questions. I think a lot of them DON'T know what they are doing to begin with. 
As for not replying to messages, yes there were some messages that were demeaning that i choose to ignore. Others I may have missed as I check and reply from my phone the majority of the time, as I'm doing now. Do I claim that the dog I get will have absolutally no issues? Of course NOT. All dogs have behavior issues that have to be worked though. Lucky I have a decent understanding on what I am doing. Will I have questions? I hope so! Will I come here to ask them? Sure, I will probably give it another try. As for this thread I'm not replying to another message. Once we pick up our puppy in the next week and a half I will post a photo and start anew.
As for posting about Cesar, it was a random question. My friend and i got into a talk about him and he is one of the many authors I have read a few training books on. In the mist of the talk I posted the question to see what you guys would say. I also said I would be back tonight to reply to all the other posts. 
Phone isn't letting me reread this, so sorry for any spelling errors.
I will come back when we get our pup with a new thread with photos. Again, done with this thread and everyones negativity.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guineveree1990 said:


> You guys are sad. Seriously have nothing better to do then rag on people? I asked one repete question and made it clear I was just looking for a few more opinions on the way the puppy was reserved, which I did get. I do think that most of you are trying to find the possible chance that he will end up being fearful, etc. And saying to look at the posts on here? Of COURSE the majority of people on here will have questions about problems they are having, that's why they are here. The other millions of owners with backyard bred gsds that aren't having issues aren't on here. Sure, there may be 100 people with questions. I think a lot of them DON'T know what they are doing to begin with.
> As for not replying to messages, yes there were some messages that were demeaning that i choose to ignore. Others I may have missed as I check and reply from my phone the majority of the time, as I'm doing now. Do I claim that the dog I get will have absolutally no issues? Of course NOT. All dogs have behavior issues that have to be worked though. Lucky I have a decent understanding on what I am doing. Will I have questions? I hope so! Will I come here to ask them? Sure, I will probably give it another try. As for this thread I'm not replying to another message. Once we pick up our puppy in the next week and a half I will post a photo and start anew.
> As for posting about Cesar, it was a random question. My friend and i got into a talk about him and he is one of the many authors I have read a few training books on. In the mist of the talk I posted the question to see what you guys would say. I also said I would be back tonight to reply to all the other posts.
> Phone isn't letting me reread this, so sorry for any spelling errors.
> I will come back when we get our pup with a new thread with photos. Again, done with this thread and everyones negativity.


Ok. cool. Good luck. When you ask your questions, will you take in the advice? Or just take your toys and go home again?? Just curious. Best of luck to you and your family. 

As far as your statement that you "won't reply to another message," that's almost funny. You declined to respond to the vast majority of posts. You also said you'd be back to reply to the posts? Not seeing that.

You can do as you want to do, obviously. And I truly DO want the best for the pup and your family as well. If you do want honest help in the future, you may want to change your attitude. Your puppy license is pretty much expired already.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> Sure, there may be 100 people with questions. I think a lot of them DON'T know what they are doing to begin with. Lucky I have a decent understanding on what I am doing.


See guys? Everyone is just overreacting! The pup will be fine! Really, we wish you all the best!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

an easily intimidated dog does not train more easily . You can have fear , flight, shut down, sulk, avoid, anxiety , feeling pressure or perceiving threat when there is none.
Carmen


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

carmspack said:


> an easily intimidated dog does not train more easily . You can have fear , flight, shut down, sulk, avoid, anxiety , feeling pressure or perceiving threat when there is none.
> Carmen


Ain't that the truth!! I've lived this first hand!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm curious. Since I know you do rescue what should happen to the BYB's pups? If this person got a pup from rescue then what would happen to the one she didn't take. It would probably be sold to someone else. So to me it seems the cycle just goes on regardless.


They should be altered and removed from the gene pool. 
At the very least. As a rescue this is what we do. Many rescues, including us, offer lifetime support including training, something they would not get from a byb. 
And most importantly, rescues screen homes, again, something bybs don't.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

carmspack said:


> an easily intimidated dog does not train more easily . You can have fear , flight, shut down, sulk, avoid, anxiety , feeling pressure or perceiving threat when there is none.
> Carmen



I guess it might if you use intimidation to train your dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

studio1one said:


> I guess it might if you use intimidation to train your dogs.


I'm pretty sure that wasn't what she was saying with the example she gave.


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## gsd_newbie (Aug 23, 2011)

To the OP: I suggest you to do the P.A.T and P.A.W.S tests so at least you have an idea what kind of puppy you are going to take home. Experience breeders/trainers around here sure know which one is the best puppy of any litter just from the first observe, unfortunately novice can not so these tests may help.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

studio1one said:


> I guess it might if you use intimidation to train your dogs.


Really?? That's odd. I used positive training, clicker, and reward with my fear reactive GSD. Brought her home at 9 weeks and raised her in the same home with an enclosed backyard surrounded by woods for the first 2 years of her life and she still ran into the backyard with her hackles raised barking at nothing every time I let her out.

Tried to take her everywhere to socialize and it didn't matter where we went, she always exited the car with hackles raised and on edge. Her first 4th of July, the sound of fireworks had her cowering in the bath tub. Trips to the vet take some pre-arrangement and coordination with the staff to get her in and out with minimal difficulty.

My second GSD? Fireworks, gun shots, sirens, you name it, get nothing more 
than a curious glance. But then, a lot more thought went into his breeding...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

studio1one said:


> I guess it might if you use intimidation to train your dogs.


What you aren't getting is that if a dog is fearful/reactive, then pretty much everything is intimidating. Everything is a threat, everything is scary. We get dogs like this in for training (I have one in my boarding/training program now) and explain to the owners that the main thing the dog fears is fear itself.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

I think my comment was taken in the wrong way. It was not meant as a question on anyones training or techniques. It was only meant to say that a dog that is easily intimidated may respond better to negative based training than one that is fiercely independent and naturally dominant.

In no way was I trying to suggest any of the members here train their dog in such a way and if it came across that way I apologise. I would be genuinely surprised if, in these enlightened times, people still used such methods to train their dogs.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> No, just looking for other opinions. Everything I read online says it is perfectly normal for a puppy of his age to act this way. but everything you all say makes it sound like he is going to end up killing someone and should just be put down now. looking for another opinions-- has anyone ever had a pup act like this at 10weeks?


You know what they say about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Forums are like that. I highly doubt the pup will turn into a canine serial killer, BUT, 90% of how that pup turns out will be up to you. 

The internet is full of puppy temperment tests. If the current owner is willing and it would make you feel better, take one.

Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Guineveree1990 said:


> Sure, there may be 100 people with questions. I think a lot of them DON'T know what they are doing to begin with.





> Lucky I have a decent understanding on what I am doing.




Why did you even come here in the first place, if you already know everything?



> Again, done with this thread and everyones negativity.


It's amazing that with all the good advice you got, you choose to focus on what you perceive as "negativity", and ignored the good stuff. You're welcome.

You came here asking for advice and opinions, you got a LOT of good advice from experienced people, and then you go off in a huff without a word of thanks for our time and concern, because you think someone was mean to you?

Yep, I remember 21.  Don't worry, it will pass.

Everyone here honestly wishes you best of luck with your puppy. We always want the best for the puppies, all we want to do is help, so no one here is going to add insult to injury by saying "I told you so" if issues should arise. Are we, folks?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Everyone here honestly wishes you best of luck with your puppy. We always want the best for the puppies, all we want to do is help, so no one here is going to add insult to injury by saying "I told you so" if issues should arise. Are we, folks?


Exactly... I jumped into owning a GSD despite the knowledge I thought I had and several times have had to come "crawling on my belly" for some help from more experienced people on this forum. And I do thank you all profusely for it  If you come in with humility and your ears open, no one rubs in it your face.


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