# My Boy Got Himself in Trouble



## James'Shepherd

This Saturday my 5yo GSD (Major) was lying on the front lawn chewing his ball. He wasn't tied up because he isn't a runner. He doesn't chase people or cars. He has never exhibited aggression towards anyone. My wife was studying about 30 feet away when a 5-6 year old kid from the neighborhood cut across our yard and ran toward Major to pet him. The child has interacted with him before and there was no problem.

My wife, not wanting the boy to sneak up on the dog and scare him told the kid to stop. He didn't act like he heard her and kept going. She yelled for him to stop again, this time louder. Major was startled by this and saw the boy running toward him. In a flash he lunged for the boy and bit him under the arm, breaking the skin and eventually causing the boy to receive a few stitches.

The boys parents called Animal Control and they came to the house. Major was barking when she came to the door, and because he had bit the child and was acting "aggressively" toward her, she said that she would have to take him in.

Major is currently at animal control and we are being asked to surrender him to be euthanized or pay up to $3000 in fines for having an aggressive dog off lead. We are being sued by the parents of the child for $10,000 for pain and suffering.

I feel like this was something that was caused by my wife calling out urgently to the boy and Major taking it as someone threatening her. He has never done anything like this before. 

Things are further complicated by the fact that Major showed his teeth to the animal control officer and struggled the entire time she was trying to load him into the truck. He also isn't doing well in the facility. He is confused and is scared of everyone. He won't let anyone get close to him. It's heartbreaking to think that he is actually proving the case of animal control because he doesn't know what's going on.

I'm upset about being sued, but I'm more upset about potentially losing a member of my family. 

Does anyone out there have any advice?


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## GSD2

I'm sorry this has happened to you, your dog and the child. I think it would be wise to consult a lawyer. Using the search function on this site you may find other similar instances and the outcomes, what the people did, ect. I am sure soon people with a better understanding of these types of situations will post with some good advice. I think it's really important that you start with getting a lawyer. The laws are different in different states. Good Luck


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## Bella856

Its a different world today. I was bitten by a dog when i was younger. Required stitches and then got a whoopin from my dad for being in someones elses yard without their permission. My parents didn't think...hey...i can sue them and make a quick buck as i was ok and that was their main concern. Sucks to hear this. I couldn't imagine my Bella being taken from me. I would go insane. 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## gsdsar

Get a lawyer. 

Has he ever had a complaint against him before? 

Is he up to date on all his vaccines? 

What general area do you live in? Each state/province will have different laws regarding dog bites. Familiarize yourself.


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## Slamdunc

Did they issue you a summons and a court date?


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## middleofnowhere

Whatever Major's reason, you are now faced with a law suit and fine or loss of your dog. This is my take on it. If you want the dog back, pay the fine. (That's not all that expensive. - Neither is the amount of the law suit.) Contest it later if you want. Do not have your dog in the front yard off lead. But I would follow the advise to engage an attorney (first) and go from there. S/he might have some advise as to whether contesting this will = a larger cost and more problems or the reverse. The kid was in your yard, did not listen to you and got bit. Easy for me to say "consequences."


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## Stonevintage

You need an attorney. All attorneys are different. Find one that has experience with dog bite law in your area. None of us like having to deal with attorneys - but when they're needed and they are experienced, have respect with the judges (and win - or settle with minimal damages) - they are worth every penny you pay them. (not a friend of a friend who's an attorney- one with direct experience and successful outcomes for his/her clients in dog bite law). 

This is a very bad situation and I hope it works out in a more reasonable manner that it seems right now. I would just hope that everyone reading this that does not have an adequately fenced yard, their dog on a leash or rock solid recall - can take a moment to consider.... in a heartbeat - this could be you and your dog.....:frown2:


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## mchcthrn

I'm sorry this happened to you. It is an unfortunate situation, and I can't imagine the stress you are going through right now.

With these types of situations, I feel like there are always warning signs leading up to the bite that have been disregarded as not important. I know you said he's not aggressive to people, but what about to people coming in your home, at the vet/groomer, to other dogs, seeing strangers at night, people in "funny" clothes, to people or other dogs approach his food/bones, etc? Has he shown prey drive before? Are you able to stop him and/or call him away from squirrels/cats/deer, etc? Has he ever been aggressive to other dogs? How's his obedience and how much training is done on a regular basis? Are you always able to recall him? How's his down stay - at what distance/time/level of distraction? Does he listen to your wife as well as you? Has he ever showed more "protective" behavior around your wife? What about with your wife if a stranger or maintenance person comes over and you are not there?

If you are truly honest with yourself, are there some yellow flags in Major's history? Even though he is not a runner, can you honestly say, he is 100% bomb-proof in his history to be off leash in your front yard? Was he exercised sufficiently that day? Even dogs who are good off leash, if you just sit with them in the front yard and they haven't had sufficient exercise, they are going to look for outlets to stimulate themselves.

Also, if the ACO felt he was aggressively barking when she arrived at your house, there was probably something in his behavior that made her feel like he was a bit out of control. As someone who's worked for years in shelter, I can tell you that not every dog shows their teeth to the ACOs. I also think it is the exception for a dog to not let people close to them when they are at the shelter. Usually, the dogs are stressed out in the shelter setting and look for people or at least a person to bond to for comfort, the ones who don't often have some underlying fear/aggression/or anxiety issues with people. 

If there are some yellow flags, and you had him off leash in the yard anyway, that probably does make you responsible. 

I agree that people need better training for their kids; however, that is unlikely to get any better. All you can do is control your dog. The fact that, in the right situation, he bit a 5/6 kid hard enough to require stitches is pretty serious. 

If it were me, I would pay the fines. I would get a lawyer to help with the neighbor situation and try to rectify that if at all possible. Once I got my dog back, I would get into a regular training schedule - for both you and your wife, and engage in regular, controlled desensitization to kids and strangers using all precautions necessary (muzzle around kids). I would also ramp up the obedience big time. And, now that you have this history, I would not have him off leash in public. Save that for the fenced backyard, or use long lines if you want to give him a little more freedom. If kids are coming over to your house, I would manage the situation and just put him away in a room with a bully stick or a KONG.

Mistakes happen. It is super unfortunate, and I'm sorry that you are going through this. It happened though, and at this point, I think you just get your dog back and make sure it never happens again. Best of luck with everything, keep us posted on how it goes.


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## carmspack

leaving a dog out on the front lawn is a really really bad idea.


you can't blame your wife for calling out to the boy -- she tried to prevent an 
incident.


this is a management problem . You said he didn't chase cars or people. But
there are kids on bicycles , dogs , cats, delivery people . Your luck ran out.


get a lawyer asap 


if there is any hope of having the dog returned to you , you must
have some sort of safe confinement , e.g. a dig proof kennel in 
the back yard .


get a lawyer . Don't blame the 5 year old for encroaching on the property
wanting to see the doggy. Looks like a pay , pay situation.


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## LuvShepherds

I'm so sorry this happened to you. In my area, people are fined and can lose their dogs for leaving them off leash anywhere other than inside their houses or backyards. Even the front yard is considered "public property" unless it is fenced off with a locking gate and the dog can't escape. I assume that isn't true in your area. I agree you need to get a lawyer right away who specializes in this. You may be able to go to mediation rather than face a lawsuit. I have no personal experience, but one of my neighbors had a dog conflict and they were able to work with the other neighbors with a mediator. If you can show you are working with a dog behavior specialist/trainer, you might be able to get another chance with your dog. I don't see any way around the fine. You don't want your dog to stay there too long.


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## llombardo

Where are you located?


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## selzer

Get a lawyer, 
fence your back yard,
explain to the judge what happened and what you are going to do (never have him off lead in the unfenced front yard, ever),
pray. 

I see this as an accident. Yes, it seems the dog mis-read the situation, but the problem was having the dog 30' away off lead where kids can and do come into your yard. 

However, the dog was in your yard, not running loose, so he was on your property. 

The child was not invited (don't blame the child) but, the dog was not off your property.

I don't know how what happens at animal control affects anything. I think they have to keep the dog for 10 day quarantine. A lot of dogs do not do good in a shelter environment. 

I hope you get your dog back. Lots of states have a one-bite rule, where the dog will not be put down, but may be designated dangerous, and the owner is then required to have a kennel of a certain height, muzzle the dog in public, carry a certain amount of liability insurance, and the like.


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## Stonevintage

I had my last GSD seized by AC. He had broken out of the yard during a thunder storm and was recovered a block and a half away. He ran into the first house door he saw open. A woman that was unloading groceries from her car. She called AC.

They wouldn't release him to me because the woman complained he was too skinny and wanted to adopt him. During the time it took me to get the records from 3 different vets on the reason for his thinness (medical condition) he had been impounded for 6 days and they would not allow me to see him.

I received a call from the animal behaviorist on staff on day 5 of this ordeal. We talked on the phone for about 1/2 hour. Apparently my dog fought everyone who tried to approach him and in the behaviorists words "was having none of any of us". However, from the conversation we had on the phone - the behaviorist was able to understand my GSD and his total "the world's ended" reaction and approached him in a different manner - he called me a day later and said that "Smoke decided to cooperate with us and we are adjusting our evaluation".

Just a suggestion, they would not let me see my dog while charges were pending - however - if their is an animal behaviorist assigned to your animal control division or humane society (if they are co-joined for that) ask if you can have a phone consult with that behaviorist...!!! It can make a difference in altering the auto perception that because your dog behaved the way he did to AC - if the behaviorist tests further - he may be able to negate that response.....as happened in my case. Something to talk to your attorney about - asap.


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## Stonevintage

Just an ad on - if you can get a phone consult with the behaviorist - it will be anonymous - expect that... chances are it won't be a documented call as to content. Consult w/your attorney before you request this - as it could backfire - I think I got lucky because the behaviorist was willing to listen to background and alter his testing methods... once he took a 2nd look and totally turned my dog around - he ended up looking like the hero.....


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## MineAreWorkingline

I feel sorry for all involved.

Have you contacted your home owner's insurance?

Where do you live? Normally it is not much more than a $50.00 fine for a dog at large that has badly bitter a person or even killed somebody's pet and rarely do they impound the dog.


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## Slamdunc

Obviously, no one is going to blame the child in this case. The child is not at fault, a five year old is not going to be responsible for being bit by a loose dog, even if the dog is in it's yard but not contained. I am curious as to where the child's parents were that let their kid run loose? 

The dog should never have been loose in the front yard with out a leash or a fence. I have some pretty well trained dogs, with reliable down stays, recall and "down out of motion." I wouldn't read a book in my front yard with any of my dogs off lead. I own two homes, one with a 1/3 acre front yard and one with a couple of acres in the front. If I am doing obedience in the front yard, my dogs may be off lead but 110% under my control. There are too many things that can happen with a loose dog and I do not take any chances with my dogs. Neighbors dogs get loose, kids play games and run across your front yard, other animals come onto the property. There are just too many potential issues or problems. Using the fact that the dog was "on my property" will not excuse this dog's aggressive behavior or the fact that the owner had little to no control over the dog. 

I agree that you should probably get a Lawyer, and make some plans to contain this dog should you get him back. Your lawyer may be able to reduce the fine and negotiate a lower settlement with the child's family. I would contact your homeowners insurance and see if you are covered. I would also look into an "umbrella" policy from your insurance provider. As you have learned, there is a lot of liability involved when you own a dog. 

I hope the child is ok, this can be very traumatic for a young child. I would call the child's parents and check on the boy. I would also apologize for the incident and make sure the child is fine. 

Going forward, if you do get the dog back, you will need to have a plan to keep the dog secure and a plan for training. Obviously, this dog can be (is) aggressive and will bite a child. I think that the OP needs to recognize the magnitude of what happened and be ready to take the steps to prevent it from ever happening again. I would let the judge know that the OP accepts the enormous responsibility of owning an aggressive dog, and will work diligently to correct this behavior and ensure this never happens again.


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## Stonevintage

Absolutely Slam Dunc - Once it's at this point... the attorneys, AC and the judges take over and they rule by what outcomes and probabilities dictate and not necessarily on each individual case. The wheels of justice turn.....


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## llombardo

i do not personally have my dogs in my front yard, but it is my property and I pay taxes. Anyone that comes on my property is trespassing. In this case negligence will be on the dogs owner or the parents of the kid. Some states might allow negligence on the actual child, here the age is 7, but it's different everywhere. If I was on the jury I would put the negligence on the kids parents. This might not be something anyone agrees with but that is my opinion. A five year old kid should be watched by their parents, it's as simple as that. Parents do not assume any responsibility now a days and it shows in the general behavior of kids. I come from a time that if we got bit we were in trouble and asked what we did to the dog. We didn't sue people. The kid wasn't running through the yard or playing, the kid was running at the dog. It's just very sad. 

Out of curiosity...
What if the dog is out there and there is an electric fence? I know tons of people that have this set up. The dog is everywhere on the property but doesn't leave the property. So my question would be if something happened like this--dog off leash on the property behind an electric fence, who is responsible then?


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## carmspack

every one pays taxes. 


" If I was on the jury I would put the negligence on the kids parents. "


kids are kids , and dogs are ANIMALS .
So although I can empathize
with the worry that the OP must be feeling , the blame is not , as the title
suggests --- my boy got himself in trouble , on the dog . 
He was being a dog , an animal.


The owner failed to manage the dog in such a way that no harm came to him.


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## carmspack

Obviously, no one is going to blame the child in this case. The child is not at fault, a five year old is not going to be responsible for being bit by a loose dog, even if the dog is in it's yard but not contained. 


Well Slamdunc , someone did .


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## Jenny720

Where are these parents letting this child run loose????they should take some responsibility. What kind of parent would not. It's sad. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. It is scary as we were at the park this passed weekend and my kids and nephew. I had max with us. There was a must of been a 5 years old boy and his little sister came running over to max -the girl got right in his face and max gave her a kiss and at the same time the boy wrapped his arms around Max's hips. I am greatful max did not react at all and was starting to get playful and did not mind these kids at all. It all happened so fast they just kind threw themselves at him. I was fuming as told at the kid to get off of him and it send them away. I know kids do stupid things and it takes seconds but what if max jumped on the kid in a playful way- it can be taken a lot differently if it wanted to be. So many lawsuit crazy people out there can get me paranoid. I -the dog owner would be accountable. Where was the kids mom a few feet away watching it all. She did not even say anything to me or her kids. 

I truly hope no harm comes to your dog as this is an accident. To consult a lawyer and behaviorists is the next step as now you know your dog will bite.


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## Stonevintage

My old boss used to tell me. "You know who runs the world?" "The insurance companies run the world". 

It's a game between the insurance companies and the legal system. These huge law suits are paid by the insurance companies... that's how making large amounts of money on an unfortunate accident came to be possible. Who can define the deep emotional scaring of poor little Johnny's traumatic experience? We all pay and woe be to the unfortunate person who isn't properly covered - as there's no opting out of the law suit game....


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## GatorBytes

This is an unfortunate accident. Yes the OP has to accept they hold some responsibility. But how much? This is a 50/50 split at best. The parents of the 5 yr old should be culpable in their negligence too. If the child ran onto the road and was hit by a car would the driver be at fault?

I don't think they will win a pain and suffering suit b/c it happened on your property. Your dog didn't escape, run the child down and maul it. 

$3000 fine for what? Where are you located? U.S. Canada or other?

Really have to look at the severity in this instance.

Unfortunately the dog is suffering, confused, stressed. See if AC will allow you to bring items that may be of comfort to him.

I wish you the best in this.

Not all dog bites end in euth. You will have to fight, know your rights, get legal advice, if even a 1 hr. consult to put you on track.
Counter suit seems to be the way of the courts too:wink2:


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## Jenny720

I was just talking my  husband's assistant who was telling me about his gsd growing up. He said his dog was in his backyard fenced but was able to stand up and peered his head over the gate. when a 8 year old boy -neighbor- looked over the fence and said hi to the dog then kid stuck his finger up the dogs nose. This was witnessed by the family of the dog. The dog bit the kids face requiring stitches in his lip. The family of the boy did not go after the dog because was confined but sued and got money through home owners insurance.


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## llombardo

I think the most important thing is to get this dog back home, no matter what has to be done to keep him alive. This is an awful accident. The age of the child will determine negligence , in Washington the age is 6. It would be completely different if he child was 4. Someone has to be negligent and generally nevogence is not split 50/50. Depending on the insurance company they will fight it tooth and nail not to pay out anything more then necessary. They will make the parents and child look real bad. I've had experience in a law suit along the same lines. This could have been handled and resolved much easier in their own without involving lawyers to be honest, but it's to late for that now.


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## selzer

Hang on with the kids parents. The kid is a neighbor. I was allowed outside without my parents when I was five. For Heaven's sake, my mother gave me a map when I was four to follow to get from school to the baby sitter's house who I never met. 5 year old kids can play outside your house without their parents eagle-eyeing them every moment.

The OP says that the child had played with the dog on other occasions, so, he has allowed interaction between the child and the dog. The kid is not a stranger. And the kid should not believe that he might not be safe playing with the dog today. And blaming the kid's parents, well, that's just wrong too. 

Not everyone is a dog person. But even dog people who have had the ok for their kid to play with a dog and there being no problem might have been more than 30 feet away when their kid decided to go play with the dog it knows, and might not have done anything, well until the owner started yelling. 

And even if they were outside with the kid, chances are they might not have been any different outcome. 

This is totally on the OP. The dog was unrestrained in an area where he has allowed the child to be in. And his dog attacked the kid. The OP is not even arguing about this. So why are we? 

It is an accident. I wouldn't necessarily put the dog down for this because of the yelling, I think it was just a mistake on the dog's part. It doesn't sound like the dog bit the kid multiple times -- that might change my mind a bit. 

I think the OP should list the facts, clearly and succinctly, so that the judge can make the best determination:

The dog owner was yelling for the kid to stop.
The dog was startled by the yelling/kid being right there in his yard.
The dog bit one time and immediately stopped.

Hindsight is 20/20, but if someone reading this thread might be helped, I think instead of yelling for the kid to stop, it would be better to call the dog to you. Then, the dog would be closer to you, and move away from the kid. And STOP! is usually something negative, where COME should always be something positive. I know doesn't help now, but it might help one of us in the future.

Accidents happen, and no one should lose a dog over an accident where we can see the mitigating circumstances. 

Hope the kid is alright. I hope that you apologized to the neighbors, and while it is unfortunate that they are suing, they may drop it. It could be a knee-jerk reaction to the situation. 

My sister, when she was about 13, walked home from school with a boy, and he went into put his books away, and she said she would pet his dog, a rott, who was chained. The kid said afterwards he hadn't heard her. She should have never walked up to a chained dog and started petting it. But she is not a dog person. She didn't know. The dog jumped and bit her in the chest, bit her twice. My sister had to have a drain put in her chest. 

My parents did not sue, but the dog owners put their dog down. My parents did not demand this, they just did it. I remember how angry my dad was, and yes, this was a good 20 years ago or so. My sister was old enough to know better. My sister was in the wrong. The dog was tethered in his own yard.


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## Jenny720

I think the wife's could no doubt set the dog in defense mode. Gsd are very in tune with their owners. Hopefully this is a knee jerk reaction and gets settled amongst them. A 5 year old boy a -kindergartner -do not listen very well as is not unusual they also have a very short attention span. So at this age I have to say- he needs parents to look out for him. I don't know the whole dynamics of the story but it is not unreasonable to say the parents should assume some responsibility -it is there 5 year old that was left unsupervised who can get into much trouble as he did. It could of been much worse. It is a good thing the boy is okay. I hope the dog does not have to loose its life over this it would be ashame.


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## Gretchen

I'm so sorry. I agree to get an attorney ( I know a few more thousand $$),
See if you can get visitation with your dog while being quarantined. Anybody who knows dogs, knows this breed does not do well separated from his owner. 
Since the 5 year old was also loose and on your property, see if you can agree to settle for a smaller amount than $10,000 if you put up fencing or some barrier.
Of course agree to pay any medical bills, anything over that should go into a trust account for the child for when he reaches 18 yrs old. This way you know the money
will go to the child, and not be spent on a kitchen remodel by the parents.
My old neighbor's son was injured by product when he was younger, and he agreed to a trust for his son when he turned 18 which was a win - win for both parties.
I hope your neighbors will calm down and realize accidents happen, again I am so sorry you are going through this trauma.


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## Slamdunc

I think if some one is to be helped by reading this thread, the answer is not have your dog loose in your front yard. Period. Too many things can happen and it is just not prudent, practical or smart. A dog could chase a cat or squirrel into traffic and be hit, a loose neighbors dog could come on your property. I have neighbors that walk their little chi's past my house on 30' flexi leads and let them run up to my 6' wood privacy fence that is clearly marked "Beware Police work dog" gate to see my dogs. Saying something stupid like "Fluffy, go see the Police dog!" At the same time my dogs are going ballistic behind the fence. I can tell you that 1" thick boards only hold a dog in for so long. Or they let their kids run up to my fence to "go see the big Police dog." If my dog gets loose, I will be responsible for not securing my dog in my back yard, safely secured from the dolts walking up to my back fence. It's hard to explain to people diplomatically how stupid they are, because they just don't get it. 

A dog loose in the front yard, even with an electric fence (which I hate) is a recipe for disaster. It is irresponsible and certainly opens the pet owner up for liability and litigation. Unfortunately, this is what happened here. The famous last words are always "my dog has never done that before" or "I can't believe it, Spot has never bitten anyone before." 

There is simply no reason to have an unleashed dog loose in your front yard, unless you live on a mountain with no one around for miles. Then maybe, with adequate supervision and excellent obedience.


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## wolfstraum

The biggest problem I can see is that even if you pay the fine and get the dog back - if your homeowner's policy pays the lawsuit - then they will probably require Major to be euthanized....

Sadly this is all stacked against Major  


How soon can you sell your house, move and get a new a new insurance company?? Major needs a name change too....I don't mean to sound unfeeling - to the contrary this is every dog owner's nightmare.....people are too willing to sue, to not take responsibility for their own actions and it kills me to know that the dog who is actually innocent may have to pay


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## selzer

Slamdunc said:


> I think if some one is to be helped by reading this thread, the answer is not have your dog loose in your front yard. Period. Too many things can happen and it is just not prudent, practical or smart. A dog could chase a cat or squirrel into traffic and be hit, a loose neighbors dog could come on your property. I have neighbors that walk their little chi's past my house on 30' flexi leads and let them run up to my 6' wood privacy fence that is clearly marked "Beware Police work dog" gate to see my dogs. Saying something stupid like "Fluffy, go see the Police dog!" At the same time my dogs are going ballistic behind the fence. I can tell you that 1" thick boards only hold a dog in for so long. Or they let their kids run up to my fence to "go see the big Police dog." If my dog gets loose, I will be responsible for not securing my dog in my back yard, safely secured from the dolts walking up to my back fence. It's hard to explain to people diplomatically how stupid they are, because they just don't get it.
> 
> A dog loose in the front yard, even with an electric fence (which I hate) is a recipe for disaster. It is irresponsible and certainly opens the pet owner up for liability and litigation. Unfortunately, this is what happened here. The famous last words are always "my dog has never done that before" or "I can't believe it, Spot has never bitten anyone before."
> 
> There is simply no reason to have an unleashed dog loose in your front yard, unless you live on a mountain with no one around for miles. Then maybe, with adequate supervision and excellent obedience.


 
I agree, and my first post did say that the dog should not have been loose in the front yard. 

But sometimes people find themselves in a situation that they think could be a problem, the thing to do is to call the dog to you, rather than telling the child to stop. The reasoning is solid. 

Sometimes you have to take a second and consider the consequences of a situation. I have some six week old pups at home, in a kennel that has a doggy door. The bitch was outside, the pups were in for the most part. One had a paw stuck in the door. It was yammering, and I came running, and my first thought was to open the gate and push the doggy door open. But then I realized that if I touched the gate, the bitch outside would most likely try to come through that door further injuring the puppy. Instead, I had a broom right there, and I pushed the door outward and released the pup with the broom handle. 

Now that bitch was right outside the door, and the pup was yammering. In hindsight I probably could have opened the gates and used my hands because she wasn't pushing through, which means she understood the door was stuck. But the point is, we sometimes have to think in a split moment, how each party is going to react to everything. 

A child, being yelled at STOP!!! could panic and run away, and the dog could then chase. But how is the child going to react to Brutus, COME!? 

I am not suggesting leaving the dogs loose in the front yard, just suggesting something like take the dog away from the bone instead of the bone away from the dog. Call the dog rather than yell stop to the child.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Interesting thought Sue, control the things you can.


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## Slamdunc

Yup, life is all about decisions and hopefully the decisions that we make in a split second, even under stress are the right ones. Because, afterwards everyone else has days, weeks and months to critique that decision. I've been in more than a few situations that required split second decisions, with potential dire consequences. I understand that things can happen and things can go sideways with the wrong decision or action. I am constantly analyzing situations, scanning and watching my environment, even off duty with my dogs. I will not take my dogs out of the car with out a leash. It is now midnight and I am going to put Boru in the car. I know he will listen to me and can heel off lead the 20 feet from the back gate to the car. I simply won't do it. If nothing else, I will hold him by his collar and walk him out to the car. I'm sure that I won't see anyone, but it is simply not worth taking any chances. 

The way I look at it is, I take enough chances every day at work. I am in some stressful situations with a dog daily and have to be hyper vigilant. I try to lessen my exposure and liability when ever I can. I'm simply not into taking any unnecessary risks or chances with any of my dogs, even the one dog that will not bite. I have a large umbrella policy and lock my gates, post my yard and have secure kennels. Even if my dogs were simply pets, I'd take all the same precautions. It really doesn't take all that much extra effort to be careful and responsible when handling dogs.


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## Stonevintage

There's a wide difference in the number of people that think they have control of their dog off leash and the number that actually do.

Of those that do, none have control of something unexpected, something that comes into the dogs world in a flash and causes an immediate serious situation.

To put your own dog in this type of position, off leash and not protected/restrained by a fence - how can it ever be justified? "Well, I was just going to get the paper", or "we were in our yard"or "I didn't see him coming".....none of that matters - you made the decision to give up control. You put your dog and others at risk. There is no place for complacency or justification to ignore the responsibility of dog ownership - not for a second - because that's all it takes....

I think that is the underlying basis of the law and when that is ignored, very sad avoidable consequences fall like a ton of bricks on the guilty party and their victims - their own dog being one.....


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## LoveEcho

Just a note- if you are being sued, do NOT contact the family at all, under any circumstances. Any lawyer (which you should hire immediately) will tell you the same. It really sucks, but you just can't do it, at least without consulting a lawyer. Also, posting this stuff on the internet is probably ill advised as well when there is litigation involved.


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## MineAreWorkingline

This was in the paper today and why I don't understand them taking and keeping your dog.

A Pit mix killed a toddler, and the Pit was left in its home until the mother pushed it.

"Two-year-old Lemarkus Hicks was fatally attacked by a neighbor's dog in a subdivision in the Baker Heights area - an incident that occurred in a neighborhood the family has called home for decades, she said.

"I just want to make sure that I understand the ordinance, because when Markus was killed the dog was not removed, but instead was allowed to remain in the home for three days - it was actually quarantined in the owner's home," said Tucker, who was accompanied by her daughter and the late child's mother Kayla Tucker, who did not speak during the proceeding.

"Now to me that is a vicious dog because it had just killed somebody, but nobody seized the dog. I still don't understand why the dog wasn't taken that day by Animal Control. So I definitely want it to say that if your dog kills somebody is considered vicious and should be handled appropriately," she said.

Tucker also questioned the county sheriff's department's follow-up investigation and the fact that no charges were brought against the dog's owner by Prosecuting Attorney Pamela Jean Games-Neely."

Slain toddler?s family speaks out on vicious dog ordinance - Journal News | News, sports, jobs, community information for Martinsburg - The Journal


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## middleofnowhere

This is sad. I wish the OP and Major well. When the dust settles and it is more prudent to post, I'd like to hear how it went.

Really, my heart goes out to Major & his family. 

Frankly, kids have wrecks of all sorts all the time. Growing up, (OK long ago and far away), oh, my! I only recall one law suit when a child broke it's arm at school. My family didn't think much of that. I fell and broke my collar bone at the neighbors - no law suit, no damages collected. I fell (bailed really) off a horse at a farm and got a concussion. No law suit, no damages sought or collected. It IS amazing that we manage to survive as a species (how many bike wrecks from trying to ride "no hands" like my older friends did? countless skinned knees and superficial head wounds - probably should have held the city liable for not keeping the pot holes mended or maybe sears for selling my folks the bike...)


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## Stonevintage

When I was 7 I had two sister friends my age that lived on the corner. They had a single mom which was unusual in our neighborhood. They got a Cocker Spaniel puppy and we played and had such a good time.

Then my mom said I couldn't go over there anymore to play. Valarie was very sick and her mom had to take care of her and needed a quiet house. Then her sister Luana got sick too and so we didn't see any of them outside the house anymore. Just the poor young pup tied out in the yard all day. Sometimes I would go pet the pup and play with it.

The year went by and both Valarie and Luana died of Leukemia a couple of months apart. The neighborhood was in shock and tried to help the mom but she just locked herself up inside the house. One day I was approaching to say hi to the dog and he just reared up and bit me in the stomach. He had been tied out in that yard day and night most of his year of life and was fed but that's about it. I ran home and hid my torn bloody shirt in the bottom of the clothes hamper.

My mom found it and questioned me and went up to see if the dog had it's rabies shot. The mom said yes and just threw the dog in the car and took it and had it put to sleep. Of course I blamed myself. I heard my mom telling my dad when he got home from work. 

I'm betting the boy that got bit is blaming himself for all this mess too and if that dog gets PTS for his actions - he will carry that guilt with him. It's just not the right way for parents to handle something. It could have been handled in a way that would have taught a valuable lesson for all.... but that's just not the way it happens sometimes. These people had what?- 4 days from the incident to a 10k law suit slapped on them?


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## Muskeg

Here is yet ANOTHER reason not to leave your dog loose in your yard. This was very preventable. 

Emotions raw as dog shooting divides South Anchorage neighborhood | Alaska Dispatch News


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## Jenny720

Wow 7 shots i wonder how many actually hit the dog. Not that they had a invisible fence but just another reason on how dangerous a invisible fencing can be.


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## Adelaide's_Dad

...and my neighbors think I'm a jerk for eventually having harsh words with them if I observe their dogs loose multiple times. They simply don't understand the gravity of it until something like this happens. 

I am truly sorry for the OP, I hope they do what they can to get him out ASAP.


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## selzer

Ok, I do let my dogs in my front yard without being leashed to me. Usually this is when I am taking them to my car, or to a kennel, but occasionally, just with Babs, if she needs to potty. 

Any of my dogs will run to my car, and wait for me to load them up. With Cujo, I listen and look for horses first -- he never has chased one, but he isn't a fan. Everyone else, as long as there is just one at a time, I can zip them out to my car or put them in the kennel/backyard/house without a lead. 

I don't go out and read a book. Well, I've done that too. Watching puppies, and having a dog at my feet -- rare, but I have done this. But they are under voice control. And if the dog did move more than 3-5 feet from me, I would connect a leash. 

This is why I mentioned calling the dog rather than calling to the child. If we read that, and think about it, if we then find ourselves in a situation, we might have a plan of action thought out, and might avoid a situation, dodge the bullet. 

Is it a risk to let the dog run out to the car, when we are going to class or to the vet. Well, thinking about it, with Quinnie, I have her on leash going to my car. Probably because I don't want her running through the field getting filthy. But being a puppy, I adjust what I do. The other dogs have given me enough reason to believe they are ready for that level of trust. You got to know your dog. Major is 5 years old. All of my dogs at 5 years I would trust this far. This was an accident. Now that we know that Major will bite, we definitely have to treat the situation differently. But I don't think we need to keep every dog trussed to us every moment because some dog somewhere had an altercation with a neighbor kid.


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## selzer

Muskeg said:


> Here is yet ANOTHER reason not to leave your dog loose in your yard. This was very preventable.
> 
> Emotions raw as dog shooting divides South Anchorage neighborhood | Alaska Dispatch News


This one bothers me. I know we are supposed to side with the dog's owner, but the dog already had a strike against it. The owner blamed it on the E-fence, dog's collar wasn't on right or something, so it barked. Baloney. The dog wasn't classified a dangerous dog for barking. The owner has a dog that will charge, barking at people, but left it without any visible restraint free to roam in the front, and someone was charged at, had kids, and decided to use his gun to deal with the issue. 

It is very unfortunate for the dog that he had an irresponsible owner.


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## Adelaide's_Dad

Adelaide's_Dad said:


> ...and my neighbors think I'm a jerk for eventually having harsh words with them if I observe their dogs loose multiple times. They simply don't understand the gravity of it until something like this happens.
> 
> I am truly sorry for the OP, I hope they do what they can to get him out ASAP.


Thought I should clarify myself here, I only have a chat with a neighbor if their loose dog charges me or my wife when we are walking our dogs. This means they leave their property and and run well into the street at us. At first I have a polite conversation, second time it happens, the tone is more firm, third time it is more of a, "Look you really need to control your dog..." talk, and try and make them understand how it's just not worth it if anything should happen.

Most folks realize the implications and I don't need to get to a third talk, but there are folks out there that just don't care...


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## gsdsar

I agree Sue. The man had no idea there was invisible fence, or if the dog would respect boundaries. 

I can tell you how many times I nearly burnt out brakes in my because a neighbors dog comes flying down the drive chasing my car. And I know they have an invisible fence. But I am terrified one day, the dog won't respect it or it will fail. 

Not sure I would have shot the dog, but he was new to the neighborhood and had his toddler with him.


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## Muskeg

That is a tough call. It might be different if the dog didn't already have that strike against her. It isn't that easy to get a dog "classified". The dog has to more than just "bark at someone." The AC gives a warning, then another warning, and then only classifies the dog if there is some sort of evidence.

That said, I'd be leaving a heap of dead dogs in my wake if I shot every dog that charged at me, barking.


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## selzer

I don't have a toddler. 

I have never been charged by a dog with a child in tow. 

That being said, I have a couple of nieces that I would die for. And, I would put my own dog down if they attempted to attack them. 

Since I don't carry a gun, I would have figured out another way to deal with this dog. And if I did carry a gun, I probably would keep it in mind that most people can manage a dog without shooting it. 

Evenso, momma bears and momma does and momma cows can't be held responsible if something is threatening their cubs, or calves. Fathers in the animal kingdom are usually not as apt to risk life and limb to vanquish threats to their progeny. For a human male to do so, I dunno, I really can't blame him. The dog is a known rouge.


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## Jenny720

7 shots????


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## selzer

I though I read 5. But whatever, that is what the dog owner says. I wonder what the truth is.


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## Dainerra

with training, you learn to shoot until the threat stops. So yes, if you are scared and the dog keeps running at you, 7 shots isn't going to take long. Especially if you aren't a hunter who knows how to make a kill shot on a small fast-moving creature.


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## Muskeg

Any update from the OP?


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## James'Shepherd

To all who have posted here, I appreciate the words of wisdom. To those who have said that the dog shouldn't have been loose in the front yard.. I absolutely agree. I would have never in a million years thought this dog would bite a child even on our property, but the perfect set of circumstances presented themselves and we're all here talking about the results. 

Here's an update:

Major is still at animal control. The city of Killeen is citing my wife with aggravated at large, because of the bite. It carries up to a $3000 fine. They have said that they will drop the charge if we surrender Major to them and allow them to euthanize him. As far as I'm concerned, that isn't an option, but my wife disagrees. The city is really leaning hard on her and telling her that even if she fights the case, it's likely that Major will be put down because of what he did. I'm under the impression that the city just wants the case to end easily and the easiest thing to do is to kill Major and be done with it. From the start, they have been doing this and while part of me understands that they have a job to do, part of me resents them as I believe that they are just as much there to take care of animals as they are people.

Additionally, the family is asking for $5000 now - settling out of court. Depending on what the insurance company does, I may pay part of all of that sum. It's still very ugly financially, but that's where the problems only begin.

This situation is further complicated by the fact that my wife and I are separated/pending divorce. Originally, she was going to take the dog, but now can't. In addition to the huge amount of restrictions that will be placed on her by the city (requirements/fines/visits from animal control/Major being labeled as an aggressive dog and having to wear a tag, etc.), USAA has stated that they will cancel any renters policy that she or I have if the dog lives with us because of the bite. I'm sure someone will cover us for 10 times the premiums, but then there's the problem of finding a place to live that will accept Major. I see her reasons and I don't blame her for them. 

I'm active duty military living alone and in a job that requires me to be gone for weeks and sometimes months at a time, so I can't either.

So now I have a situation where there is a dog who has bit a child and who, if he escapes the city - now has to find a new home. No easy task.

I am willing to do whatever is necessary to make sure that Major lives and at least is given a chance to live a good life. He has been a wonderful dog, to both my kids, my wife and I. He reacted to a situation and now has to fight for his life. This entire situation makes me sick to my stomach.

Here's what I'm going to do.

1. Gather every picture and video of Major ever taken for presentation to the court. I have a million pictures of him wearing a bra or underwear on his head (I have creative little girls). I have several videos of him behaving, doing tricks, being calm and good outdoors off lead, and the like. Hopefully the judge will see these and see what kind of dog he is. 

2. Talk to my neighbors and see if any of them will come in and talk about Major's character. My across the street neighbor has two great danes that bark at Major constantly. He doesn't pay any attention to them and lies in the grass chewing his ball. This is his reaction with just about anybody who would irritate any other dog and all of my neighbors know it.

3. Talk to anyone and everyone, including those in this forum about finding a home for Major as quickly as possible. It may be that if the Judge finds out that Major will be removed from Killeen, that he will be more lenient in his sentence. 

I don't care about what all of this costs. I will pay any fine to get him out of animal control and I will drive any distance to make sure that he gets a good home.


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## Muskeg

I am sorry to hear this! I am glad you are willing to defend your dog. The fines and situation seem extreme for a bite under the circumstances you describe.

I am not blaming you. Things happen. Dogs aren't always predictable. Hindsight is 20/20.

I am no lawyer but I have friends that are and I know how they think. It pays to do your research. I found some decent information here: https://dogbitelaw.com/defending-your-dog

I'm not advocating for that particular attorney and have no reliable means to evaluate his advice. But if you want to defend your dog, you have to think like a lawyer. Do research on your city's statutes and how best to spring your dog. Your veterinarian or any trainer you worked with can also testify. An evaluation by a good canine behaviorist can also help your case. 

I'm surprised this is going so far on a dog's first offense on his property. The bite sounded quite minor.


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## James'Shepherd

For reference, here are several links to videos on YouTube for Major.. I agree that this is an exceptionally difficult case. According to animal control, there was a child that was attacked and killed by a dog a couple years back here in Killeen. There are dozens of people in my neighborhood who keep pit bulls in their back yard and never do anything with them. Truly aggressive animals abound in Killeen, and Major didn't help himself with the way he behaved when animal control took him away. The bottom line is that the city of Killeen doesn't mess around with animals and the answer now is - if they bite a kid, they have to go unless proven otherwise.

Here are some videos of Major for reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxUjQW7ucBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMQod-bOlHE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78U1kr8BR-8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS5qhHx_usc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECWPmALmXHE

Thanks again to all of those who have commented and offered advice.


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## selzer

How bad was the bite? To what part of the body? 

I think settling out of court with the family makes sense. 

Ok, I am going to say it. 

If you aren't going to keep the dog, and your wife isn't going to keep the dog. Than maybe your wife is right and if she can be present for the euthanasia, than maybe it is better to do that. 

I'm really sorry that this is happening. But, rehoming a dog that bit a child is nearly impossible, and often very irresponsible. There are a lot of dogs out there being put down daily that haven never bitten anyone.

Now, I know that this situation may have never happened if people acted differently. But, how can we be certain that this dog might not be at the vet and have a child rush up and hug it? Probably it won't be a problem if the human it is with doesn't over-react. Probably. But the human with it will know that it has already bitten a child badly, and the chances that that uncertainty/fear will not travel down the leash are slim. 

Euthanasia will end your dog's life, but it doesn't have to be hard on the dog. They can put the dog into a deep sleep, and then put the stuff in that shuts him down. It is hard on us because we know the dog will not be out running and playing, etc. But the dog knows nothing. He just won't wake up again. 

Keeping a dog that has injured a person, is always a risk. And I think it should be illegal to rehome a dog that has bitten someone badly, if it was not due to an injury during separating dogs fighting, or where the animal was seriously injured in some other way -- ie dog was hit by a car, owner picks the dog up, and the dog bites out of pain and fear. If your dog bites someone, then it should be up to you to make the hard decisions, the decision to manage and work with the dog forever, or the decision to euthanize the dog. 

I am really sorry for you. Your situation is awful, and there are no easy answers. I feel for the dog, and for the kid, and for the parents of the kid. I feel for your wife, she has to be feeling terrible. I think she is right though.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Seems that there was a couple of child deaths in Killeen. 

One in 2007 where a Pit Bull killed an 11 year old boy and one in 2014 where a Bullmastiff killed a two year old.

I am sure these two fatalities have a lot to do with how you are being treated.

This is happening all over the country, excessively punishing all dogs for the deeds of bully breeds.


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## James'Shepherd

selzer said:


> How bad was the bite? To what part of the body?
> 
> I think settling out of court with the family makes sense.
> 
> Ok, I am going to say it.
> 
> If you aren't going to keep the dog, and your wife isn't going to keep the dog. Than maybe your wife is right and if she can be present for the euthanasia, than maybe it is better to do that.
> 
> I'm really sorry that this is happening. But, rehoming a dog that bit a child is nearly impossible, and often very irresponsible. There are a lot of dogs out there being put down daily that haven never bitten anyone.
> 
> Now, I know that this situation may have never happened if people acted differently. But, how can we be certain that this dog might not be at the vet and have a child rush up and hug it? Probably it won't be a problem if the human it is with doesn't over-react. Probably. But the human with it will know that it has already bitten a child badly, and the chances that that uncertainty/fear will not travel down the leash are slim.
> 
> Euthanasia will end your dog's life, but it doesn't have to be hard on the dog. They can put the dog into a deep sleep, and then put the stuff in that shuts him down. It is hard on us because we know the dog will not be out running and playing, etc. But the dog knows nothing. He just won't wake up again.
> 
> Keeping a dog that has injured a person, is always a risk. And I think it should be illegal to rehome a dog that has bitten someone badly, if it was not due to an injury during separating dogs fighting, or where the animal was seriously injured in some other way -- ie dog was hit by a car, owner picks the dog up, and the dog bites out of pain and fear. If your dog bites someone, then it should be up to you to make the hard decisions, the decision to manage and work with the dog forever, or the decision to euthanize the dog.
> 
> I am really sorry for you. Your situation is awful, and there are no easy answers. I feel for the dog, and for the kid, and for the parents of the kid. I feel for your wife, she has to be feeling terrible. I think she is right though.



The bite was bad enough. One of his teeth broke the skin and required stitches. The boy was bitten under the arm.

Based strictly on logic, I believe that you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, logic has little to do with why I feel like I owe it to Major to try for him. He has loved me and been loyal to me since I brought him home. I will save him if I can. 

I respect your opinion, but I believe that there is a situation where Major could fit and be happy. Thank you for posting.


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## Mudypoz

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Seems that there was a couple of child deaths in Killeen.
> 
> One in 2007 where a Pit Bull killed an 11 year old boy and one in 2014 where a Bullmastiff killed a two year old.
> 
> I am sure these two fatalities have a lot to do with how you are being treated.
> 
> This is happening all over the country, excessively punishing all dogs for the deeds of bully breeds.


Lol, I was waiting for this one. Let's blame those big, bad Pit Bulls for every little thing, why don't we?! This is bordering on hilarity


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## MineAreWorkingline

Mudypoz said:


> Lol, I was waiting for this one. Let's blame those big, bad Pit Bulls for every little thing, why don't we?! This is bordering on hilarity


You find dead children funny?


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## Mudypoz

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You find dead children funny?


Nope. Not at all. But your carrying on with your hatred for Pit bulls is almost amusing. I realize that you've had a bad experience, and I'm sorry for that, but now you're the one who's latched on and you're refusing to let go. Please give the Pit Bull bashing a rest. I beg you.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Mudypoz said:


> Nope. Not at all. But your carrying on with your hatred for Pit bulls is almost amusing. I realize that you've had a bad experience, and I'm sorry for that, but now you're the one who's latched on and you're refusing to let go. Please give the Pit Bull bashing a rest. I beg you.


If you were actually reading the thread vs stalking my comments, you would have seen that it was OP that brought up dogs killing children and a Pit Bull problem in his town, not me. I merely commented on it.


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## selzer

Mudypoz said:


> Nope. Not at all. But your carrying on with your hatred for Pit bulls is almost amusing. I realize that you've had a bad experience, and I'm sorry for that, but now you're the one who's latched on and you're refusing to let go. Please give the Pit Bull bashing a rest. I beg you.


Hey, this fellow is going to lose his dog, it's not the place for this. Really.


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Hey, this fellow is going to lose his dog, it's not the place for this. Really.


I agree. Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic.


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## Dainerra

James'Shepherd said:


> Based strictly on logic, I believe that you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, logic has little to do with why I feel like I owe it to Major to try for him. He has loved me and been loyal to me since I brought him home. I will save him if I can.
> 
> I respect your opinion, but I believe that there is a situation where Major could fit and be happy. Thank you for posting.


the chances of a happy ending to these cases are actually slim.

1) did you know that if he bites someone in the future you could potentially be sued? even if you don't own him anymore. that is why rescues don't generally accept a dog with any type of bite history.

2) how would you feel if someone's child is injured even more critically in the future?

3) will those future owners stay with him when he is put down? or will they leave him at AC to die scared and surrounded by strangers who think that he is vicious?

4) what kind of home eagerly accepts a dog with a bite history? no one that you would want owning a dog that you love. 

there are worse things that can happen to a dog with a bite history than being euthanized surrounded by people who love him.


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## Magwart

You might want to reach out to:

The Lexus Project
(they may be able to take ownership of your dog)

and 

The Animal Legal Defense Fund
Other Issues Regarding Your Companion Animal | Animal Legal Defense Fund
(they may be able to refer you to a local attorney)


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## llombardo

Dainerra said:


> the chances of a happy ending to these cases are actually slim.
> 
> 1) did you know that if he bites someone in the future you could potentially be sued? even if you don't own him anymore. that is why rescues don't generally accept a dog with any type of bite history.
> 
> 2) how would you feel if someone's child is injured even more critically in the future?
> 
> 3) will those future owners stay with him when he is put down? or will they leave him at AC to die scared and surrounded by strangers who think that he is vicious?
> 
> 4) what kind of home eagerly accepts a dog with a bite history? no one that you would want owning a dog that you love.
> 
> there are worse things that can happen to a dog with a bite history than being euthanized surrounded by people who love him.


There are circumstances to everything. My senior dog bit someone and it was a lot worse then this bite. She has never done so before or after, she will be 12. This dog does not have a history of aggression. He could do well in the right home. Euthanizing every dog that bites is not the answer. One has to look at the whole picture. This was an accident and I think most would agree that in a different scenario this dog would not have biten and destroying him is not the answer.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think the kind of people that would take a German Shepherd with a bite history are people who know the breed well and accept it for what it is. That is the type of home you would want a German Shepherd to be in, one that would not panic at any signs of aggression and dump the dog but expect them and be prepared.


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## selzer

llombardo said:


> There are circumstances to everything. My senior dog bit someone and it was a lot worse then this bite. She has never done so before or after, she will be 12. This dog does not have a history of aggression. He could do well in the right home. Euthanizing every dog that bites is not the answer. One has to look at the whole picture. This was an accident and I think most would agree that in a different scenario this dog would not have biten and destroying him is not the answer.


I really don't blame the dog for what happened. 

I don't think the dog is hopeless. 

I understand fighting to keep the dog, and paying the fine. 

I hope they can find someone experienced, a sanctuary or something to take the dog. 

But since neither wife nor husband is in a position to care for the dog, I think there are much worse things that could happen than having the dog PTS. 

I wouldn't want this dog alive, but living in a 5'x10' kennel for the next 7 years. 

I wouldn't want this dog rehomed to someone who knows, but doesn't think it is much of an issue, and then gives the dog to someone else who doesn't know and have another kid get bitten. 

I wouldn't want this dog picked up by someone who will sell it to a lab or use it as a bait dog. 

I wouldn't want the dog going to a Cesar wannabe who believes they can rehabilitate any dog, but doesn't know what the heck they are doing. 

It is scary to rehome a dog with a bite history. When the family who raised the dog from pup on up can't find a way to keep the dog, then why would anyone else pass up all those dogs that are PTS all the time that never bit anyone for a dog that will bite, for sure?


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## Jenny720

I feel major does not deserve to be euthanized in this scenario. I'm glad you are continuing to fight for him, he deserves a chance and it is possible to find a home that will be suited for Major. There is still hope.


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## middleofnowhere

James' Shepherd - I just sent you a PM. I'm hoping for the best for Major.


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## Ronin2016

I always feel sad when I hear about this kind of stuff. My puppy, who is NEVER allowed off leash or off the lead when in the front yard is going through a fear period and I know we've already had one instance where a kid ran into the yard who was only 3. He got away from his grandparents, who are my neighbors, and since I was only a few feet away, I immediately heard the kid and Ronin's growl and grabbed my dog and told the kid to stop. He didn't, and I grabbed him and moved him away from my puppy. My puppy is only 5 months old and loves kids but not my neighbors grandson because he is too loud and likes to push his loud toys in front of Ronin and scares him. I have told my neighbors that he is not to be in my yard when Ronin is outside unless I am there, or they are with him when I'm there. I do not want an issue. Ronin for other kids lets them run up to him and pet him and loves it. I'm a new dog owner, but if he is ever outside, he is on a lead and I am right on the step watching him. My husband doesn't agree that I should be right there, but I have kids in the area and people with dogs off leash so I never take chances. I hope everything works out with Major! Accidents happen, but the kids parents should have been watching. No matter what the age or temperament of the dog, I don't feel they should ever be off a leash or lead when in a front yard.


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## ZiggytheSheprador

Have you tried reaching out to social media and/or local news interests? I think painting a picture of character would help you buy Major some time and the public broadcast could get someone's attention who could take him. Whatever you decide, god speed and thanks for your service.


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## Dainerra

llombardo said:


> There are circumstances to everything. My senior dog bit someone and it was a lot worse then this bite. She has never done so before or after, she will be 12. This dog does not have a history of aggression. He could do well in the right home. Euthanizing every dog that bites is not the answer. One has to look at the whole picture. This was an accident and I think most would agree that in a different scenario this dog would not have biten and destroying him is not the answer.


an older dog is one thing. and deciding to keep the dog yourself is another. trying to find a responsible home for a dog with a bite history is an entirely different situation from either. 
When it comes to hoping that my dog spends the rest of his life in a home that will keep him safe and keep others safe with him vs being by his side at the end, it's a no-brainer for me. I won't risk the uncountable number of dangers to him.


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## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the kind of people that would take a German Shepherd with a bite history are people who know the breed well and accept it for what it is. That is the type of home you would want a German Shepherd to be in, one that would not panic at any signs of aggression and dump the dog but expect them and be prepared.


sadly, the number of bad people who want a dog with a bite history outnumber the experienced people who want to take on a dog with potential issues. 
1) guard dog for less than savory people
2) dog fighters
3) just plain clueless people who think that they can "fix" the dog
4) people who want a bad*** dog


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## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> sadly, the number of bad people who want a dog with a bite history outnumber the experienced people who want to take on a dog with potential issues.
> 1) guard dog for less than savory people
> 2) dog fighters
> 3) just plain clueless people who think that they can "fix" the dog
> 4) people who want a bad*** dog


1) When you think about it, German Shepherds are supposed to have a modicum of aggression and it is expected behavior. So by classifying people who want a "guard dog" type as unsavory, you are in essence saying that almost anybody on this forum who did their research and made an informed decision to get a well bred GSD are unsavory people. 

2)I am sure that there is an idiot here and there that might use a GSD for dog fighting but they will be sorely disappointed when pitted against the right dogs. GSDs aren't a favored breed among dog fighters for good reason.

3)As stated above, a GSD is supposed to have a modicum of aggression, it is not something that should be fixed. Maybe we need to take a good hard look at this one because if people are trying to fix GSDs that are bred to the standard, and failing this are dumping them in shelters or disposing of them, then maybe we are failing the breed as breed ambassadors by putting out the wrong message, but I digress.

4)I guess many people may want a GSD because they want a "cool" dog, that does not make them bad owners. I think everybody should be proud of their dogs, well bred, pure bred, mixed breed, all of them. I don't view it as a negative. I would suspect somebody that is proud of their dog might even have extra incentive to take care of their dog.

A dog with a bite history, and in particular this dog in this situation, does not mean it is aggressive. This is a middle aged dog whose owner felt confident enough to allow it to lie loose on the lawn. It might not have been the right decision but it appears to me that this dog must have been mellow enough for this person to trust their dog to do so.


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## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> 1) When you think about it, German Shepherds are supposed to have a modicum of aggression and it is expected behavior. So by classifying people who want a "guard dog" type as unsavory, you are in essence saying that almost anybody on this forum who did their research and made an informed decision to get a well bred GSD are unsavory people.
> 
> very different than someone willing to take on a dog that has bitten a child. I am classifying a group of people who want the dog to guard unsavory activities IE those involved in drugs, chop shops and other criminal activities. They first criteria is a dog that they know will bite. And hey, if a dog will bite a child they expect that it will bite a threatening adult.
> 
> 2)I am sure that there is an idiot here and there that might use a GSD for dog fighting but they will be sorely disappointed when pitted against the right dogs. GSDs aren't a favored breed among dog fighters for good reason.
> 
> people use many many breeds for fighting and always have. They also like to place "non-fighting" breeds into the pit simply for the joy of watching them be killed slowly and painfully. Larger dogs are great for this since they have some percentage of a fighting chance
> 
> 3)As stated above, a GSD is supposed to have a modicum of aggression, it is not something that should be fixed. Maybe we need to take a good hard look at this one because if people are trying to fix GSDs that are bred to the standard, and failing this are dumping them in shelters or disposing of them, then maybe we are failing the breed as breed ambassadors by putting out the wrong message, but I digress.
> 
> a well-bred GSD should never be a threat to a child. The standard calls for them to be aloof. They are not a breed that should view any and all trespassers as a threat. Akitas and mnay other breeds are actually intended to be distrustful of all strangers.
> 
> 4)I guess many people may want a GSD because they want a "cool" dog, that does not make them bad owners. I think everybody should be proud of their dogs, well bred, pure bred, mixed breed, all of them. I don't view it as a negative. I would suspect somebody that is proud of their dog might even have extra incentive to take care of their dog.
> They don't want the dog because they think that GSDs are cool. There are a couple different category of these type of people. Those who want to "save" a dog with a backstory of "they were going to put him down but I saved him and I've rehabbed him" These may actually be the most dangerous since many of them think that if they simply love the dog enough it won't be a danger to anyone else. Those are the owners who usually end up shocked when the dog bites again.
> The other main group is those who think that it is cool to own a dog that sent someone to the hospital. Their recounting of this probably won't mention that the person was a child but they like to be able to impress their friends
> 
> A dog with a bite history, and in particular this dog in this situation, does not mean it is aggressive. This is a middle aged dog whose owner felt confident enough to allow it to lie loose on the lawn. It might not have been the right decision but it appears to me that this dog must have been mellow enough for this person to trust their dog to do so.


 The dog in question bit a child that it knew well and had interacted with before. The child was not behaving in a manner that should have been mistaken as threatening. If they were going to keep the dog, I would say that they could likely be sure that he wouldn't bite again. Rehoming, however, is a crap shoot.


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## MineAreWorkingline

1) There are a lot of people out there that don't have children, tons of adult homes.

2) German Shepherds were never BRED for dog fighting like other breeds. 

3) The standard calls for the GSD to guard and protect. German Shepherds should have a modicum of distrust but should be discerning. No dog can distinguish between a child or a midget intent on doing harm or a child that is very big for their age. They are dogs. They just don't have that ability. Besides many juveniles commit heinous crimes, should the GSD refuse to protect based on it might be a child? At what age should a GSD stop recognizing a child as a child? On their 18th birthday? That is what the law says. Can a GSD recognize that somebody is only 17 years old and make use of that information?

4) Then there are owners who think it is cool to have a dog like Rin Tin Tin. Incidentally, he bit people too.

Rehoming a dog to an adult home most likely would not result in a second bite on a child.

When I was growing up, we had a very aggressive GSD, family members only, never a threat to family children. He was never given access to somebody else's children to bite and it worked out very well. It is not hard to do.


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## Muskeg

Good posts by MAWL. It's not like a dog has this switch that flips and the dog is forever bad. From the OP's description this was a nip, prompted by the wife's shout, perhaps. It was not a sustained attack by any means. The dog has lived with family children without a problem. If I remember correctly the neighbors didn't even go to the hospital right away. The bite was that minor. 

Generally a dog that bites at this level is not euthanized but either listed as dangerous, or given one strike, and given another chance. A dog that bites at this minor level deserves a chance. I haven't met the dog, but I do not see this dog as a risk to the public. In fact if he's hung out with neighborhood kids before, he's hardly vicious. 

I'm sure the OP would be much more cautious in future, of course. But this was no mauling, sustained attack, or even full mouth serious bite. 

Lumping all bites together isn't right for the dogs or the owners. This situation sounds a bit complicated, but if the owner wants to spend the resources to keep his dog from death, that is a fair choice.


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## selzer

I really don't think the dog is all that likely to bite again. It interacted with the kid before, but the owner didn't feel 100% comfortable. She felt the child was going to startle the resting dog, so she made a terrible mistake. She yelled probably with some panic or frantic attitude at the child. The dog was startled, so his owner was scared and yelling at the child and made a terrible choice. 
Accident. 

It bit. It did not maul. It did not bite several times. But it did bite. Not all dogs would. But I think there are enough mitigating circumstances to give this dog another chance.

The owner, if the owner kept the dog, would NEVER put the dog in that situation again. They are probably the only people I would feel comfortable owning the dog. Because they know what will happen if there is another accident. 


Unfortunately, the owner is going through a divorce, and the insurance company is refusing to cover them if they have the dog, and the situation seems impossible for both husband and wife. Sometimes when a dog bites, people wake up to the fact that these dogs do have a lot of power, and can be a liability. Maybe the wife just doesn't feel qualified to own the dog. 

I keep being drawn back to this thread because I feel so bad for the dog and the people. All of them. I wish we could take back this accident, but it can't be done. I think the penalty far outweighs the crime here. The crime/mistake was on the human as much as the dog, both in having the dog loose (she was worried about the dogs reaction, dog shouldn't have been loose) and in yelling to the kid, just calling the dog to her probably would had a different outcome. Hind sight is 20/20. 

What gets me, is that if people who have raised this dog from puppy on up can't find a way to keep it and live with it, then are we truly getting the whole story? Maybe they know stuff we don't know. Maybe, their not being able to keep the dog does mean that this dog should be euthanized. Maybe the aggression vs. the circumstances was beyond proportion, and the wife is using her brain more than her heart in trying to do the right thing. Maybe. I don't know. I wasn't there. 

Tough situation to be in for sure.


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## selzer

Oh, I don't know. I think dogs can distinguish between a five year old child and a midget. I think dogs would have a problem between 17 and 18, sure. But 8 and 18, no question. 

I don't know if the dog had time to make a good decision. I think the dog was startled, his owner was yelling and the kid was there, and it happened. It was a bad choice, but not exactly incomprehensible.

Yeah there are people who have no kids, but even we have nieces and nephews, and neighbor children. Children run up to a dog in public. 

Point blank, I wouldn't take on a dog with a bite on a kid. I wouldn't take on a dog that I intended to muzzle every time I took it anywhere. It's just not why we get a dog. Even people with a lot of experience probably aren't looking to take on a dog who is instantly a liability. 

Ok, your dog that you love bites someone. Terrible. You go to court to determine damages and pray for the dog's life. If the attorney for the plaintiff brings up the fact that the dog bit a 5 year old and sent it to the ER previously, you are talking 100k or better in damages rather than 5-10k. And yes punitive damages would take such things into consideration. And forget the dog getting the mercy of the court. Forget it. It will be total heartache. What would you do? Go up there and say, "Well I thought that incident was an accident, and by working with the dog, I could ensure it wouldn't happen again." Good luck. 

I would be very skeptical about anyone who would want to take on this kind of liability. But if I was the owner of the dog, well, I might try to save it and keep it, and make sure no other incident ever happened.


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## Baillif

I mean realistically why wouldn't the dog bite a kid again? It worked. Dog felt threatened dog bites threat threat stops being a threat. If on the other hand the dog did it and immediately you beat the crap out of the dog then maybe it would have reservations about doing it again maybe never do it again.


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## MineAreWorkingline

opcorn:


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## Baillif

Yeah I just went there.


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## Baillif

That can of worms has been opened. How would you train the dog to not bite in that situation? Send a kid running at it when its wearing a line or a muzzle and use an e collar if the dog tries anything? Where are you going to find a kid someones willing to put at risk like that? I guess Jeff whats his face that thegooddog guy puts his kids at risk when training dogs could always try him.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I was not judging you. I am just settling in waiting for the positive only advocates to come. I have little doubt that kill nation won't be far behind.


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## Baillif

I mean I'm not judging either but this is something to think about. It is a crappy situation, but the dog is a liability. A huge one.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I really can't agree with that. Just because a dog bites does not make it a liability. What makes an aggression prone dog a liability is treating it like it won't bite, and that is on the owner.


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## Baillif

It has gone past that. He can't get insured now as long as he has the dog. The dog has a history that is a matter of public record. It slips up again the suit that could result would be really really bad. Sure maybe if you're careful enough you never have an issue again and the dog lives out a full life, but it's something to think about.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I have not read every post in detail and digested it, but from what I recall, OP was concerned his insurance MIGHT drop him. I think he needs to find out for sure, and then I think he needs to shop around before jumping to conclusions, although the point seems to be moot now. 

The dog has a public record now, BUT I would suspect their are rules and regulations that must be adhered to if were to be allowed to keep the dog that are not all that different from what many of us practice now and that is why we don't have bite histories. Keeping a dog in a six sided kennel when outside, always on a leash and muzzled in public and in the hands of an adult, maintaining insurance requirements, etc., are doable.


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## llombardo

Muskeg said:


> Good posts by MAWL. It's not like a dog has this switch that flips and the dog is forever bad. From the OP's description this was a nip, prompted by the wife's shout, perhaps. It was not a sustained attack by any means. The dog has lived with family children without a problem. If I remember correctly the neighbors didn't even go to the hospital right away. The bite was that minor.
> 
> Generally a dog that bites at this level is not euthanized but either listed as dangerous, or given one strike, and given another chance. A dog that bites at this minor level deserves a chance. I haven't met the dog, but I do not see this dog as a risk to the public. In fact if he's hung out with neighborhood kids before, he's hardly vicious.
> 
> I'm sure the OP would be much more cautious in future, of course. But this was no mauling, sustained attack, or even full mouth serious bite.
> 
> Lumping all bites together isn't right for the dogs or the owners. This situation sounds a bit complicated, but if the owner wants to spend the resources to keep his dog from death, that is a fair choice.


I wish there was a love this post button. I agree 100%.


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> That can of worms has been opened. How would you train the dog to not bite in that situation? Send a kid running at it when its wearing a line or a muzzle and use an e collar if the dog tries anything? Where are you going to find a kid someones willing to put at risk like that? I guess Jeff whats his face that thegooddog guy puts his kids at risk when training dogs could always try him.


LOL yes Jeff Gellman, he has lots of kids. 

https://katch.me/chip18sw/c/dogs-and-kids

For the record Jeff Gellman is Solidk9training:
Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

And Sean Oshea is the Good Dog 
https://thegooddog.net/

Not much help here now however, to late for armchair dog training as it were. 

Best advice at this point is to pay the fine and get a lawyer. I don't think it's a slam dunc for the other side as the child did invade the dogs space and the dog "had" no bite history. 

Lots of us have dogs and no kids, I "freaked" once when I had Rocky outside on a client's patio in "Place." Grandma showed up unexpectedly with a toddler!! And while I was busy with my client the toddler slipped out the back door unobserved by Grandma or me!! 

I noticed the missing kid and freaked! I bolted outside the door and saw the child but no "Rocky???" 

I looked at the far end of the "Patio" and there he was (Rocky), apparently he saw the toddler approach (he's not a fan of the little ones ... well no one really to be honest.) most likely he looked for Dad??? I was not there and the only thing he knew was ... "don't be biting the crap out of "people" unprovoked, so he called an audible and moved away! He made an "independent decision" and stepped away. Not something I trained "exactly" but I'll take it. 

Not much help here however. But the dog can be managed better if he gets another chance. People that don't have kids do have a bit more of a burden to keep crap from happening, if they live in family neighborhoods.


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## gsdsar

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have not read every post in detail and digested it, but from what I recall, OP was concerned his insurance MIGHT drop him. I think he needs to find out for sure, and then I think he needs to shop around before jumping to conclusions, although the point seems to be moot now.
> 
> The dog has a public record now, BUT I would suspect their are rules and regulations that must be adhered to if were to be allowed to keep the dog that are not all that different from what many of us practice now and that is why we don't have bite histories. Keeping a dog in a six sided kennel when outside, always on a leash and muzzled in public and in the hands of an adult, maintaining insurance requirements, etc., are doable.


USAA will Not cover him with the dog. He said in a previous post that they will refuse to cover if the dog is in the house.


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## MineAreWorkingline

gsdsar said:


> USAA will Not cover him with the dog. He said in a previous post that they will refuse to cover if the dog is in the house.


I recently shopped around for insurance online and, surprisingly, nobody asked if I even had a dog. They were concerned about the property.

I know that State Farm does not discriminate against those who own dogs, but I don't know if they would ask about a bite history.

I do know for fact that the federal government provides full insurance coverage to those who can't get insurance through conventional routes. All that is needed is a letter of refusal for coverage from an insurance agency. Guaranteed acceptance.


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## gsdsar

USAA does not discriminate against breeds. They won't renew a policy if they paid out on a dog bite and the same dog still resides in the house. 

When I signed up with them they asked if my dog had bitten anyone. But they had no issue with the breed. 

I am sure you can find someone to cover you, but at what cost?


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## selzer

Baillif said:


> That can of worms has been opened. How would you train the dog to not bite in that situation? Send a kid running at it when its wearing a line or a muzzle and use an e collar if the dog tries anything? Where are you going to find a kid someones willing to put at risk like that? I guess Jeff whats his face that thegooddog guy puts his kids at risk when training dogs could always try him.


I think you would do a two pronged attack: 1) you would manage the dog's environment in an attempt to ensure the dog never is in such a situation again; and 2) you work on the reason the dog bit, if the dog is nervous around children, you slowly and carefully build the dog's confidence and even more carefully subject the dog to children running and playing until the dog ignores it completely, then you get a little closer. I guess. 

The idea of using an e-collar and a child to prevent this from happening again, well, I would think that could go way wrong. The dog could associate the correction to the child and be even more suspicious of children. 

I still think that the dog's owners, and maybe the dog's breeder are the ones that have a vested interest in this dog. The one that could keep the dog, the OP's wife, is not willing or able. Have they contacted the breeder? Why would perfect strangers want a dog that the people responsible for him, who enjoyed his puppy hood, and watched his character form don't want? Add to that the liability, the dog is as good as dead. There maybe someone out there that would take on the dog, but for every one decent person, there are probably 100 or 1000 who would take the dog who either could not give it a responsible home, or would want it for something foul. Put the dog down before you do that.


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## MineAreWorkingline

gsdsar said:


> USAA does not discriminate against breeds. They won't renew a policy if they paid out on a dog bite and the same dog still resides in the house.
> 
> When I signed up with them they asked if my dog had bitten anyone. But they had no issue with the breed.
> 
> I am sure you can find someone to cover you, but at what cost?


I was on it years ago because I had an empty house next door and nobody would ensure me because they stated that the house would draw children, thus increasing my liability, and that the children may start a fire. So I had to do both. The liability was a bit pricey, but at what they charge for general insurance today anyhow, it isn't that much of a difference.

Bottom line though is you don't know until you ask and I still think State Farm will pick it up.


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## Baillif

selzer said:


> I think you would do a two pronged attack: 1) you would manage the dog's environment in an attempt to ensure the dog never is in such a situation again; and 2) you work on the reason the dog bit, if the dog is nervous around children, you slowly and carefully build the dog's confidence and even more carefully subject the dog to children running and playing until the dog ignores it completely, then you get a little closer. I guess.
> 
> The idea of using an e-collar and a child to prevent this from happening again, well, I would think that could go way wrong. The dog could associate the correction to the child and be even more suspicious of children.
> 
> I still think that the dog's owners, and maybe the dog's breeder are the ones that have a vested interest in this dog. The one that could keep the dog, the OP's wife, is not willing or able. Have they contacted the breeder? Why would perfect strangers want a dog that the people responsible for him, who enjoyed his puppy hood, and watched his character form don't want? Add to that the liability, the dog is as good as dead. There maybe someone out there that would take on the dog, but for every one decent person, there are probably 100 or 1000 who would take the dog who either could not give it a responsible home, or would want it for something foul. Put the dog down before you do that.


E-collar doesn't go the wrong way if you do it right. That was a hypothetical question it wasn't advice on what to do. If I wanted to teach the dog not to bite kids and had access to volunteer kids I could totally do it. Whether or not I would take the risk is perhaps a different question, but I could set up a safe set up if properly incentivized.


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## GatorBytes

Checking on the OP's activity out of curiosity, It shows he hasn't been active on here since yesterday around 330pm. The day/afternoon AC had issued his deadline to make a decision. Fight or euth.


He hasn't updated or commented, so I fear the worst personally.


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## wyominggrandma

The wife doesn't want to keep the dog and manage the liability. The husband is in a job that has him travel for weeks or more at a time so he cant keep him. They are divorcing, so he can't force wife to keep dog. 
Trying to find a home with a dog with issues, maybe just the one bite issue or maybe more, is a big problem. Even if he finds that perfect home, he could be sued down the road since the dog has a bite record and who knows if the dog does it again. Many folks will take a dog and promise the moon, then it falls apart and they either dump the dog without the previous owner knowing and the dog gets handed from one home to the next and most likely ends up in another A/C situation because it bites again or whatever and someone gets scared.
The dog bit a child. Maybe the child should not have run up to dog, maybe the wife should not have shouted, whatever the situation that happened, the dog BIT and drew blood on a child. Doesn't matter if it was in the front yard, the owner will be held responsible. 
I expect the dog was euthanized, which is probably better in this case since the wife refuses to keep him and the husband can't.


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## James'Shepherd

GatorBytes said:


> Checking on the OP's activity out of curiosity, It shows he hasn't been active on here since yesterday around 330pm. The day/afternoon AC had issued his deadline to make a decision. Fight or euth.
> 
> 
> He hasn't updated or commented, so I fear the worst personally.


I wanted to provide an update on the situation.. Not ideal, but I'm calling it a win.

I appeared in a hearing yesterday to determine Major's fate. The family showed up, as did Animal Control. I was unprepared for it to be a full blown trial with a prosecutor coaching the family on what to say and what to avoid, but I did my homework before showing up.

We spent almost two hours trying to determine whether or not the dog had bit the child on the property, or if (as the family claimed) he had chased the child into the street. In the end, the judge didn't care. He cared that the kid hadn't provoked the dog by hitting/kicking/tail pulling (which he didn't), and whether or not the dog had actually bit him (which he did). 

I told the judge that I had found a place for Major to live outside of Killeen, TX with a professional animal trainer. The fact that I had done that (and could prove it) is what saved Major's life. 

I get to pick him up on Friday and take him to his new home in Florida, where, I pray that he'll be happy. 

I wish I could keep him. I love that animal and my life won't be the same without him, but I'm happy that he'll be given a second chance.

One day, when my days in the military are over and I can provide an ideal environment, I will own a German Shepherd again. I hope he shows me as much love as Major did.

Thank you, everyone, for your concern. Thank you for the advice. This is a great online community.


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## Momto2GSDs

So very sorry for your/Major's situation and the grief that surrounds it.

But I am happy that you found a good home for him!

Moms


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## wolfstraum

So sorry for you losing Major - but glad he was saved!

And rotten tomatoes to those neighbors who lied in court and wanted him killed!!!! GRRR

Lee


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## Jenny720

I am sad you had to go through this and had to rehome your dog. Very glad you stuck it out till the end and fought and figured out something to save your boy -it paid off. It sounds like you found him a great home?


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## Jenny720

*(Smiley face)


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## ipopro

UPDATE!

Major has been saved. The child's family has been paid!

Major is the only dog in the history of this particular judge to have ever been spared!

Thanks to this website and it's users, we have been able to save Majors life.

Major now lives on a 12 acre farm with a 600 Square Mile front yard to run with 7-15 other German Shepherds (top bloodlines in the country and top in the world) at any given time. Major lives in the main house with the family (including 2 children and 2 Adults) and is loved and cared for 24/7/365. He has adapted well to his new home and is enjoying every minute of it. Major is a very well behaved GSD. He has a lot of talent and is learning each and every day 1-3 hours of serious training by adults and children. Major is in the prime of his life at 5 Y.O. and is expected to live out the rest of his days right on the farm. Anyone would be very hard pressed to find a better dog (looks good and very sound temperament).

I understand what happened and have formed an opinion as to what transpired on that given day under those given circumstances (startled) Without hesitation we allow major to interact with our children (supervised) and have yet to see any signs of instability or concern (he always herds the children inside prior to going in himself). Major goes to the store almost daily to visit and socialize (zero problems) inside or outside, to friends and neighbors homes on-leash and off leash. After weeks of doing this he is loved and appreciated by all he has met! 

He's the only non certified service dog allowed in the store when only locals are present with everyone's consent and has come to truly enjoy the time spent among others. When he hears the keys to the vehicle in the morning he's at the front door ready to go. We have kept his old leash with the scent of his former owner and utilize it for the purpose of pleasure and have assigned a new leash for training purpose. He truly knows one from the other (very special)...

Unfortunately the law would not allow Major to stay with his family but we have discussed the possibility of offspring in the future (if all works out in the long run) going back to his family. 

I want to personally thank all who were and are concerned for Major, and those who participated in saving this dog!

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GERMANSHEPHERS.COM you just saved a phenomenal GSD!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Great to hear that Major found a home!


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## GatorBytes

THAT is a PHENOMINAL update!!!!


WOW. Kudos. To you, the prior owner and even the Judge. But in the Judges case, it was all involved do to their due diligence that saved this dog.


I had been thinking about asking for an update:wink2:
Thank you!


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## kelbonc

Thank you for this update!! This is a wonderful outcome for Major!! I'm sure as hard as it was to give him up, the former owner of Major must be so grateful for the wonderful home and people that gave his dog a new beginning.:smile2:


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## llombardo

I've been wondering about this too. I was almost afraid to open the thread up. I am beyond happy that this dogs life was spared and that he got a second chance.


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## selzer

Yep, great news. Dog bites kid, dog gets rehomed to a breeder. Dog lives happily at a farm with 7-15 other GSDS -- what? They can't count them? Ok, dog is going to be bred and an a offspring of this dog will be sent back to the home where he bit a kid. 

Great update!

Sorry if I don't buy this. I may be the only one here that owns 18 German Shepherds. But I can guaranty you that if some new 5 year old dog suddenly was acquired, it certainly wouldn't be the dog that lives in the house with the all the kiddies. A five year old intact dog might have trouble moving into a home with that many GSDs. If they are all bitches, it can still flip the current pack structure. 

And I don't think we want a DOG herding the children back into the house. That is the kind of crap pet owners like hearing. The kind of stuff that trainers and breeders kind of cringe at. 

But we really cringe at hearing that a dog that bit a 5 year old kid because it was _startled_ has been acquired by a breeder who is going to breed the socks off of it, and create more nasty child-biting dogs that will be sure to build our breed's character.


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## ipopro

You know, I don't know you nor do you know me.... But you my friend are the exact reason I have posted only 10 times on this site in years of being here!

1. I am not a breeder I am a trainer and have been for 30 years! 
2. The owner of the dog came to the farm and saw the home and property met with the whole family, checked references plus we were interviewed by the animal control authority prior to the decision and they also checked with local animal control with regard to our history.
3. It took less than 24 Hrs to read this dog inside and out. He was inside day 1!
4. I may have 10 dogs on Monday and 15 on Friday it just depends.
5. My personal dogs, Bomber, X-box, Diddy etc...progeny all live on the back of the farm in a 3 acre fenced area, that's where they choose to live, we rotate them in and around the home. Majors owner said the dog had always lived inside the home and thus I made the decision to bring the dog in and transition the dog into the rotation over time rather than stick the dog in a pack or outdoors immediately.
6. Did you not read the statement that if all works out we have discussed the possibility of a puppy in the future!
7. Trust me you may be the only one here that owns 18 German Shepherds and would condemn a dog for a single bite! Or the only one that would own 18 German Shepherds and ASS-U-ME all of the things that you have thus far.
8. I love the fact that the dog does not feel the need to be in the house (door) first and has the trait of allowing/suggesting humans enter or exit first. You're a dog trainer? 

Watching you rant and rave I would almost swear you are a dog breeder (uneducated) and had never trained a dog in your life!

WHY DON'T YOU DO THIS, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND LET'S JUST COME ON DOWN HERE AND HAVE A LOOK! IF EVERYTHING I SAID IS NOT TRUE I OWE YOU 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS YEP $20,000.00 U.S.D. and if it is all true, YOU OWE ME $10,000.00

otherwise sthu!


----------



## selzer

Nope. Ok, your dogs are outside, the new dog is inside. But will be on a rotation outside. Fine. It sounds a lot better than running in and out with 7-15 GSDs.

Evenso, you said that you will breed the dog and give a pup to the previous owners. 

Breeding a dog that has bitten a child that he has played with previously, nope, sorry, that is the height of irresponsibility, and I don't give a flying patootie if the dog saves everyone on your road from a masked intruder. Doesn't matter. The dog, a 5 year old dog, bit a non-threatening little kid that he knew. If the dog had just been hit by a car -- that would be extenuating circumstances. For an adult dog, a mature dog to bite a small kid that he has played with, why? because the wife hollered at the kid -- no way. The dog should be neutered. 

If you let this dog reproduce, than you are terribly irresponsible and I don't care how many dogs you have trained in your life.

ETA: I am a breeder. I train and have titled many of the dogs I have produced, and some that I have not produced. There is nothing wrong with being a breeder. There is plenty wrong with breeding a GSD with a temperament issue.


----------



## Chip18

James'Shepherd said:


> I wanted to provide an update on the situation.. Not ideal, but I'm calling it a win.
> 
> I appeared in a hearing yesterday to determine Major's fate. The family showed up, as did Animal Control. I was unprepared for it to be a full blown trial with a prosecutor coaching the family on what to say and what to avoid, but I did my homework before showing up.
> 
> We spent almost two hours trying to determine whether or not the dog had bit the child on the property, or if (as the family claimed) he had chased the child into the street. In the end, the judge didn't care. He cared that the kid hadn't provoked the dog by hitting/kicking/tail pulling (which he didn't), and whether or not the dog had actually bit him (which he did).
> 
> I told the judge that I had found a place for Major to live outside of Killeen, TX with a professional animal trainer. The fact that I had done that (and could prove it) is what saved Major's life.
> 
> I get to pick him up on Friday and take him to his new home in Florida, where, I pray that he'll be happy.
> 
> I wish I could keep him. I love that animal and my life won't be the same without him, but I'm happy that he'll be given a second chance.
> 
> One day, when my days in the military are over and I can provide an ideal environment, I will own a German Shepherd again. I hope he shows me as much love as Major did.
> 
> Thank you, everyone, for your concern. Thank you for the advice. This is a great online community.


UH WOW!!!

I haven't read the rest just yet but I don't care .. I did glance at something negative??

I want to say in any case ... well done sir! I thought this dog was done??? Above and beyond here and as I am want to say "Crap Happens!"


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## ipopro

@ Selzer Put your money where your mouth is or sthu PLEASE! End of story! I'll pay double to nothing know it all! 20,000.00 to 10,000.00 tomorrow!


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## Hineni7

Ipopro, I am very glad you took in this dog and will be giving him a good life... Remember the Internet can drum up emotions quickly without repercussions to those starting it, or continuing it. Opinions are opinions, not necessarily facts. You are passionate and that dedication saved this dogs life along with his owners love and searching you out.. Thank you for taking care of him


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## selzer

ipopro said:


> @ Selzer Put your money where your mouth is or sthu PLEASE! End of story! I'll pay double to nothing know it all! 20,000.00 to 10,000.00 tomorrow!


No chance. I have to work tomorrow. Doesn't matter. What matters is you aren't answering what you said about breeding a dog with an obvious temperament issue. I don't need to come to you. It is what you are contemplating, what your own fingers typed, about breeding a dog with a serious bite history.

Yes/No are you planning on producing offspring from this dog? That is all we need to know that will tell us everything we need to know.


----------



## Chip18

ipopro said:


> You know, I don't know you nor do you know me.... But you my friend are the exact reason I have posted only 10 times on this site in years of being here!
> 
> 1. I am not a breeder I am a trainer and have been for 30 years!
> 2. The owner of the dog came to the farm and saw the home and property met with the whole family, checked references plus we were interviewed by the animal control authority prior to the decision and they also checked with local animal control with regard to our history.
> 3. It took less than 24 Hrs to read this dog inside and out. He was inside day 1!
> 4. I may have 10 dogs on Monday and 15 on Friday it just depends.
> 5. My personal dogs, Bomber, X-box, Diddy etc...progeny all live on the back of the farm in a 3 acre fenced area, that's where they choose to live, we rotate them in and around the home. Majors owner said the dog had always lived inside the home and thus I made the decision to bring the dog in and transition the dog into the rotation over time rather than stick the dog in a pack or outdoors immediately.
> 6. Did you not read the statement that if all works out we have discussed the possibility of a puppy in the future!
> 7. Trust me you may be the only one here that owns 18 German Shepherds and would condemn a dog for a single bite! Or the only one that would own 18 German Shepherds and ASS-U-ME all of the things that you have thus far.
> 8. I love the fact that the dog does not feel the need to be in the house (door) first and has the trait of allowing/suggesting humans enter or exit first. You're a dog trainer?
> 
> Watching you rant and rave I would almost swear you are a dog breeder (uneducated) and had never trained a dog in your life!
> 
> WHY DON'T YOU DO THIS, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND LET'S JUST COME ON DOWN HERE AND HAVE A LOOK! IF EVERYTHING I SAID IS NOT TRUE I OWE YOU 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS YEP $20,000.00 U.S.D. and if it is all true, YOU OWE ME $10,000.00
> 
> otherwise sthu!


Cool ... another multi thousand bet!!! Jeff Gellman has one for any PO only trainer to work with one of his Human biting DOg killers using PO only methods ...no takers thus far??? 

Bottom line the dog is saved!! So if it's "silly season' for this thread ... count me in!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## selzer

Chip, do you think this dog should be bred?

Do you think that we should be even having this discussion????

Someone gets a dog and within days is talking about breeding it and giving the offspring back to the original owner. That's real funny, real silly. Whatever.

Maybe the court got this one wrong. Maybe the court should have euthanized. Because irresponsible people will take a dog that will bite a kid, subject it to more kids before it is even settled in, and then breed it to produce more dogs with serious temperament issues.


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## ipopro

@selzer

What I said was as follows and it's in Black and white for all to read below.

and I quote unlike you who makes things up in their mind and believes their own LIES!

"we have discussed the possibility of offspring in the future (if all works out in the long run) going back to his family."

KEY WORDS "in the future" "if all works out in the long run"


----------



## Jax08

I'm on the "don't consider breeding this dog" bandwagon. Just my two cents.

BUT!!! Great that you were able to save him and that you are happy with him! Sometimes dogs are just in a bad situation without the right leader. Sounds like he'll get the training and leadership he needs.


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## Hineni7

Here is what gets me.. And I'm not speaking to this situation in particular... Humans screw up ALL THE TIME, they know better, they live in a human world and environment, sometimes damage is extensive and sometimes not, sometimes consequences and punishment is served and sometimes not.. But nobody condems to death a single incident that isn't intentional or outright murder... Now, I've been sliced by dog teeth inadvertently. They are sharp and serrated in areas, easy to do even if a dog is goofing around and swings his head by your hand while his mouth is open... So a child can accidently require stitches as their skin is softer, even when a knee jerk startle response doesn't mean an actual bite with aggression (again, not to this particular situation, just a general but similar scenario).. And suddenly it is PTS PTS PTS... What? Lord knows I would hate to be on the side where a jury of my peers had this mentality, I mess up in life all the time (No not illegal stuff, but the point is a screw up can still have injury accidentally even if it is emotional or mental, etx) 

Dogs can have an oops that isn't intentional and especially if not consistently trained, does not always (I mean always, yes there are times for sure, but not always) mean they have unstable temperaments.. Has a person not done some stupid action, said something they shouldn't have that does damage to someone else or their property, etc and been labeled mentally unstable?! Not usually.. Especially if it doesn't happen again.... I'm just venting... I'm probably in the minority with my thoughts but I don't mind... I'm not talking about obvious situations, all situations, or a specific situation, just some situations where a stable dog made a mistake.. It does happen..


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> Chip, do you think this dog should be bred?
> 
> Do you think that we should be even having this discussion????
> 
> Someone gets a dog and within days is talking about breeding it and giving the offspring back to the original owner. That's real funny, real silly. Whatever.
> 
> Maybe the court got this one wrong. Maybe the court should have euthanized. Because irresponsible people will take a dog that will bite a kid, subject it to more kids before it is even settled in, and then breed it to produce more dogs with serious temperament issues.


Uh oh .... ironically enough ...yeah once again "I'm that guy ... sigh.

I'm not a breeder and have no plans of every being one if I was I'd have six or seven elderly Boxers all carrying the gene for DM!!???

But to this topic, I think what you are saying is that you prefer dogs that dogs that can "make good decisions" independent of handler intervention?? Determine "non threats??"

Sign ...yeah I have one, full on OS WL GSD with WOoblers and a dislike for everyone besides his pack! In particular a dislike or distrust of "toddlers!" 

How do I know (as I don't have kids??) my clients. I take Rocky to work (Personal Care Assistant) if I take Rocky to work he stays in the car. On one occasion, the clients granddaughter saw him and wanted to meet him.

Fine ... I "ask" the three year old to stay on the sidewalk and I'll bring Rocky out of the car. (Car was parked in front of their unit) so I'm getting Rocky out of car, the toddler sees him "Squeals" and rushes forward???

Rocky halfway out of the car hears her and issues a low growl???!!!
I freeze turn to the toddler and say* "STOP STEP BACK!" *ANd back in the car "Rocky" goes yeah that did not work!

A few weeks later the client says (it's just him and I) "aww heck bring him in I don't mind."

The place is small and Rocky is big, Rocky goes to place and hangs out, no problem. Shower time and I take Rocky outside put his Blanket down on the Patio and tell him "Place." 

I'm working with the client, unexpectedly Grandma shows up with a different even smaller toddler. No problem Rocky is outside in "Place" and Granda has eyes on the toddler ...yeah right ....

Full on "crap happens" experiance to follow! So I finish dressing the client, that done "I" look for the toddler?? Grandma's asleep??? Me ... WTH?? I rush out the back door!! And sure enough there is the toddler!! Yep Grandma asleep and out the door he went, where last I knew was "116 lbs of Wl GSD that did not much care for people and toddlers in particular!! 

But ...yet again WTH?? Ok here is the kid?? There is Rocky's blanket ... but no Rocky??? 

Apparently when Rocky saw the toddler approach ...he most likely looked for "Daddy???" No Daddy, uh oh!!! Apparently at that point "Rocky made an indepent of handler decision" and chose to step away! I saw him standing about 15 feet away from the non threat!!??

I'd not trained that and technically he broke "Place" but it was a good call on his part! 

Now if that is good genes or training??? I have no idea, I did do my oft mentioned Leerburgh "Who pet's my puppy or dog" so he understood how I expected him to behave around people but ... *"toddler avoidance training"* no that was not me, that was his call! And one I am glad he made! 

So yeah clearly he "perceived a "non threat" and made a good call. 

I do often say* "the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!" * But that is not something I tend to proof!

On the other hand someone less skilled (dare I say) than myself could have had the exact same situation with "my" dog and had a more tragic outcome?? Is that a dog ( gene problem) or a handler problem??? I have no idea but hey ... I'm not a breeder! 

Sooo I guess I stand "firmly" in the middle here. I can't understand how one bite to a non threat, can say anything about what my be in future offspring?? I'm pretty much a hard core training guy! Tell the freaking dog "down or stay" if your eyes on and intercept the kid. Problem solved 

But as I stated ... I'm not a "Breeder."


----------



## selzer

Chip18 said:


> Uh oh .... ironically enough ...yeah once again "I'm that guy ... sigh.
> 
> I'm not a breeder and have no plans of every being one if I was I'd have six or seven elderly Boxers all carrying the gene for DM!!???
> 
> But to this topic, I think what you are saying is that you prefer dogs that dogs that can "make good decisions" independent of handler intervention?? Determine "non threats??"
> 
> Sign ...yeah I have one, full on OS WL GSD with WOoblers and a dislike for everyone besides his pack! In particular a dislike or distrust of "toddlers!"
> 
> How do I know (as I don't have kids??) my clients. I take Rocky to work (Personal Care Assistant) if I take Rocky to work he stays in the car. On one occasion, the clients granddaughter saw him and wanted to meet him.
> 
> Fine ... I "ask" the three year old to stay on the sidewalk and I'll bring Rocky out of the car. (Car was parked in front of their unit) so I'm getting Rocky out of car, the toddler sees him "Squeals" and rushes forward???
> 
> Rocky halfway out of the car hears her and issues a low growl???!!!
> I freeze turn to the toddler and say* "STOP STEP BACK!" *ANd back in the car "Rocky" goes yeah that did not work!
> 
> A few weeks later the client says (it's just him and I) "aww heck bring him in I don't mind."
> 
> The place is small and Rocky is big, Rocky goes to place and hangs out, no problem. Shower time and I take Rocky outside put his Blanket down on the Patio and tell him "Place."
> 
> I'm working with the client, unexpectedly Grandma shows up with a different even smaller toddler. No problem Rocky is outside in "Place" and Granda has eyes on the toddler ...yeah right ....
> 
> Full on "crap happens" experiance to follow! So I finish dressing the client, that done "I" look for the toddler?? Grandma's asleep??? Me ... WTH?? I rush out the back door!! And sure enough there is the toddler!! Yep Grandma asleep and out the door he went, where last I knew was "116 lbs of Wl GSD that did not much care for people and toddlers in particular!!
> 
> But ...yet again WTH?? Ok here is the kid?? There is Rocky's blanket ... but no Rocky???
> 
> Apparently when Rocky saw the toddler approach ...he most likely looked for "Daddy???" No Daddy, uh oh!!! Apparently at that point "Rocky made an indepent of handler decision" and chose to step away! I saw him standing about 15 feet away from the non threat!!??
> 
> I'd not trained that and technically he broke "Place" but it was a good call on his part!
> 
> Now if that is good genes or training??? I have no idea, I did do my oft mentioned Leerburgh "Who pet's my puppy or dog" so he understood how I expected him to behave around people but ... *"toddler avoidance training"* no that was not me, that was his call! And one I am glad he made!
> 
> So yeah clearly he "perceived a "non threat" and made a good call.
> 
> I do often say* "the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!" *But that is not something I tend to proof!
> 
> On the other hand someone less skilled (dare I say) than myself could have had the exact same situation with "my" dog and had a more tragic outcome?? Is that a dog ( gene problem) or a handler problem??? I have no idea but hey ... I'm not a breeder!
> 
> Sooo I guess I stand "firmly" in the middle here. I can't understand how one bite to a non threat, can say anything about what my be in future offspring?? I'm pretty much a hard core training guy! Tell the freaking dog "down or stay" if your eyes on and intercept the kid. Problem solved
> 
> But as I stated ... I'm not a "Breeder."


Well, I am a breeder. And when someone is coming to look at my puppies, they tend to bring their kids. Sometimes they tell me that their kids are or were afraid of dogs. I have to be able to say to them, with full confidence, he or she will not bite you. Big kids, little kids, kids that scream and run, kids that stare at the dog because they don't trust dogs, kids that are oozing fear pheromones. 

You know what? All of that is just a bunch of baloney. The dog can't bite the kid no matter what. There are no excuses really, except excruciating pain. 

No, we cannot expect a dog to differentiate between a 17 year old punk and an 18 year old punk. But when we are talking about stitches and a five year old, then, sorry, but the dog shouldn't be bred. 

And someone thinking about breeding a dog, down the line, if everything lines up right, well, they are thinking about breeding the dog.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> Well, I am a breeder. And when someone is coming to look at my puppies, they tend to bring their kids. Sometimes they tell me that their kids are or were afraid of dogs. I have to be able to say to them, with full confidence, he or she will not bite you. Big kids, little kids, kids that scream and run, kids that stare at the dog because they don't trust dogs, kids that are oozing fear pheromones.
> 
> You know what? All of that is just a bunch of baloney. The dog can't bite the kid no matter what. There are no excuses really, except excruciating pain.


Hey ... don't shoot the messenger!. As I see it my dogs goes to your point! 

My outcome was pretty good but I don't know if it was because of me and my work or "Rocky" and his choices??


Only thing I know ... is I'd be thrilled to have another WL GSD just like him! I don't have a dog in this fight ... or do I???


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## gsdsar

I agree with Selzer on this one. 

I am surprised the dog was allowed to remain intact. I am surprised that someone who has had the dog for only a few days is even throwing out the possibility of a breeding. 

The dog is five. Has a serious bite on its record. He may be a lovely dog. But he should not be bred. But I am stickler for what dogs should be bred. 

I wish this dog a long and happy life in his new home and I am glad that a situation was found for him.


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## NYCgsd

I'm not an expert on dogs, but I had a chow chow growing up and now got a GSD puppy. The chow was incredibly aggressive to ANYONE not in our family or close friends. She was calm but aggressive if that makes any sense. Incredibly confident. Would stare down anyone in the street and not flinch, ever. Would look for a fight. She bit a door to door salesman one time because I left the door open because I was expecting my mom to come home. The guy was really cool about it, like it was his fault for entering the front gate. So I think I know a thing or 2 about aggressive dogs. 

Major does not sound like an aggressive dog. From the way you described it, he mistook the kid as a threat because your wife yelled out. Lets say instead of the kid it was a criminal going on your property looking to do harm to your wife, her first reaction would probably be to scream out "NO". The dog was protecting her and her property. In my opinion he reacted like a true guard dog should. The kid shouldn't have ran onto your property to pet a big GSD. Anyways, maybe I missed something here as I only read the first page of this and the OP's side of the story but I don't think the dog is dangerous from what I read.


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## GatorBytes

A dog is neither good nor bad
It's just being a dog


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## NYCgsd

gsdsar said:


> I agree with Selzer on this one.
> 
> I am surprised the dog was allowed to remain intact. I am surprised that someone who has had the dog for only a few days is even throwing out the possibility of a breeding.
> 
> The dog is five. Has a serious bite on its record. He may be a lovely dog. But he should not be bred. But I am stickler for what dogs should be bred.
> 
> I wish this dog a long and happy life in his new home and I am glad that a situation was found for him.


By the looks of your avi you have an east german working GSD. I bet his lineage includes many aggressive working border patrol dogs used by the military and have serious track records. They were essentially bred to have a strong defensive drive. 99% of American GSD's do NOT have this drive (according to Leerburg their first instinct is to run away). This mans wife screamed out "NO, NO" as if she was in danger and the dog reacted like a protection dog should (in my opinion). If the kid was a burglar then he would make the news for heroism. It was just a case of mis-understanding on all parts. I do not feel like this dog is dangerous, he has never had anything like this happen before and the kid probably had numerous friendly encounters with the dog. Major was protecting his owner because she sounded like she was in danger. 
Anyways I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here and I am no expert but I just want you to look at it from a different perspective. DDR dogs were hand selected for breeding to have no fear and to react to threats in this way, to fight. It's just sad that the wife might have overreacted to cause the dog to feel threatened and bite a kid.


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## GatorBytes

I had no idea this demon dog who b/c of an act of it's owner mauled this child, who (the dog) should have known better between a 5 yr old and an intruder (as mentioned)...
Oh wait...The child wasn't mauled, he suffered a puncture caused by A tooth....then the dog relented b/c the 5 yr old must have kicked the crap out of the dog?
Oh, then the parents seeking $$$ took child to hospital for stitches for a puncture...hmm
I bet the parents had nothing to do with advising the doc who too made $$$ off the stitches....
In Canada, we let the wound drain, especially in animal bites b/c the risk of bacterial sepsis is greater if stitched...unless of course you need like 20 stitches...you know, if you were mauled


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## gsdsar

NYCgsd said:


> I'm not an expert on dogs, but I had a chow chow growing up and now got a GSD puppy. The chow was incredibly aggressive to ANYONE not in our family or close friends. She was calm but aggressive if that makes any sense. Incredibly confident. Would stare down anyone in the street and not flinch, ever. Would look for a fight. She bit a door to door salesman one time because I left the door open because I was expecting my mom to come home. The guy was really cool about it, like it was his fault for entering the front gate. So I think I know a thing or 2 about aggressive dogs.
> 
> Major does not sound like an aggressive dog. From the way you described it, he mistook the kid as a threat because your wife yelled out. Lets say instead of the kid it was a criminal going on your property looking to do harm to your wife, her first reaction would probably be to scream out "NO". The dog was protecting her and her property. In my opinion he reacted like a true guard dog should. The kid shouldn't have ran onto your property to pet a big GSD. Anyways, maybe I missed something here as I only read the first page of this and the OP's side of the story but I don't think the dog is dangerous from what I read.


Not saying the dog should be destroyed. Just that he should not be bred. 

Dogs do make mistakes. I just get the "Eeks" when someone who has had a dog for a very short period of time after getting it from someone who nearly had to destroy it because of a bite to a small child, is talking about breeding. 

A dog with solid temperament should not attack a 5 yo child that it had met and interacted with on multiple occasions. Sorry. Forgive the mistake, but don't breed the dog. 

Yes my boy is DDR. Yes I know what's behind him. My boy is also not super fond of children. But the one time I "lost control" and was not aware of a 6 yo launching at him, hugging him face to face, and I screamed and literally shoved my hands in between the two, to give a buffer if my dog reacted. He just looked at me and stood up. The CHILD was not a threat. He had the wherewithal to know that, even with me shouting and acting a fool. And I never plan on breeding him.


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## llombardo

I think that you have to look at the dog in front of you to determine anything, which we can't do. Yes, the dog did bite, but not one person here knows exactly what happen, including the OP. It's all a bunch of assumptions on everyone's part. For all we know the dog ran at the kid and his teeth hit under the arm the wrong way--I have had it happen to me(under the arm is very delicate)Let's just remember a kid of this age is about face level with a full grown GSD, yet the dog got him under the arm? If this dog meant to bite it would have been the kids face, not under the arm. Anyone with smaller kids can visualize what I'm explaining--I've seen it with my own when they are playing with the kids. There are no signs this dog is unstable or aggressive. Even the most stable dogs can have an off day, just like the most stable people can. It's a dog. There is no prior history and from all accounts people that have met him or dealt with him like the dog and he is considered well behaved. The dog is proving himself to be a great dog in his new home. I didn't see the update as the new owner saying they were going to breed. They did say it's possible, which means they are observing the dog, learning about the dog, training the dog and taking it from there. Who cares if they keep him inside and the others outside? The person gave a very good explanation of why that is. I, who doesn't agree with dogs living outside, think that all of these dogs have a good home and are happy. The new owner sounds like they know GSDs , they know how to handle and train them. They took in this dog and saved his life. They see him, how he interacts, they see his temperament-WE DON'T.

To the person that saved Major-Thank you for stepping up and helping a dog that did not deserve to die. Enjoy him. To Majors original owner--thank you for fighting for your dog and putting him first, it had to be difficult, but I think you know he is in good hands.


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## GatorBytes

Nicely said llombardo


----------



## middleofnowhere

I am so glad that Major has found a home. I want to commend the OP for standing up for his dog, for seeing that the dog came out of this OK and the new owner for stepping up. 

Before you consider breeding Major, please get involved in some dog sport and see if you can get a few titles on him; please get his health checked for hips and elbows and perhaps DM. Hips and elbows are things most of us with knowledge want to have checked in the parents of any puppy.


----------



## NYCgsd

gsdsar said:


> Not saying the dog should be destroyed. Just that he should not be bred.
> 
> Dogs do make mistakes. I just get the "Eeks" when someone who has had a dog for a very short period of time after getting it from someone who nearly had to destroy it because of a bite to a small child, is talking about breeding.
> 
> A dog with solid temperament should not attack a 5 yo child that it had met and interacted with on multiple occasions. Sorry. Forgive the mistake, but don't breed the dog.
> 
> Yes my boy is DDR. Yes I know what's behind him. My boy is also not super fond of children. But the one time I "lost control" and was not aware of a 6 yo launching at him, hugging him face to face, and I screamed and literally shoved my hands in between the two, to give a buffer if my dog reacted. He just looked at me and stood up. The CHILD was not a threat. He had the wherewithal to know that, even with me shouting and acting a fool. And I never plan on breeding him.


Sometimes dogs don't know the difference between a child and adult. They just see someone taller than them, who makes loud screeching noises. It was probably a millisecond reaction to the wife acting like she was in danger. I agree that you should wait a little bit to see if the dog should be bred, but I don't think you should write him off totally because I know many police K9 units would want a dog like that. Who reacts to perceived danger. That millisecond can be the difference between life or death.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I disagree with some comments.

OP's wife witnessed what happened, and OP relayed the incident. No assumptions involved, just the facts. To insinuate that things happened differently than relayed by OP would not only be an assumption regarding what happened, but also an assumption that OP's wife was being less than truthful. I don't think this is the case.

Not all dogs with intent to bite would go for the face or throat. Not all dogs are out to kill their victim.


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## Steve Strom

NYCgsd said:


> Sometimes dogs don't know the difference between a child and adult. They just see someone taller than them, who makes loud screeching noises. It was probably a millisecond reaction to the wife acting like she was in danger. I agree that you should wait a little bit to see if the dog should be bred, but I don't think you should write him off totally because I know many police K9 units would want a dog like that. Who reacts to perceived danger. That millisecond can be the difference between life or death.


Not based on that, they wouldn't. Not even close. You have a puppy and kids, I'll guarantee you if your dog reacts to kids screeching or the way this dog did in that case, you aren't going to like it. 

I don't really care about the breeding or any of the other back and forth, but I really want to stress to you how important a stable temperament is with these dogs when you're raising them with your kids. Don't mistake an incident like this dogs as something desirable or that it was anything protective.


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## Chip18

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here, the facts are as stated, the owner stepped up and the dog had a good outcome. 

So what I see is a dog without a history of biting, and it seems like there was a situation that could have been handled better and a child got bit because of "handler" mistakes. That's all I see?? Apparently the "Breeders" here see something different??

The child bit, a non threat and it's a genetic predisposition, so no breeding of this dog?? I'm not a "Breeder" but I'd like to better understand what the "Breeders" here see that I do not??? 

And for the record ... LE K9's bite non... aww heck not going there.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think they are trying to point out a lack of discernment.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think they are trying to point out a lack of discernment.


Ugh ... kinda vague .. but ... I'm not a "Breeder."


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## Muskeg

I am very happy to hear how well Major is doing in his new home. Really great outcome! Good on the OP for making it happen.

It's so easy to judge on line. I'd be willing to bet that some of the World Champion IPO dogs, and many working police K9s could have would have bitten-nipped a child under the right circumstances, with the wrong training, or just when stuff happens. It happens. 

It is because of handling, training, early socialization but moreover MANAGEMENT (which is a combination of all of the former) the dog never gets a chance to bite a non-threat. 

This doesn't mean the dog, the raw genetics of the dog, would never bite a child. Discernment isn't always just there in a dog for every situation, especially when you have the complicated genetics of a police K9, or high level protection sport dog. In creating working dogs that go after fleeing people (non threats) we are breeding dogs that do carry defense and human aggression, to different degrees. We also seek a clear headed and discerning dog, of course, which means a dog that wouldn't harm a child, but that is a gray area, where management comes in and where genetics come in. 

Just because this dog was in the wrong place, situation, and with an uncertain handler at the wrong time and bit-nipped (not mauled or attacked) a child- who if I remember correctly didn't even go to the ER until many hours later- does not mean the dog's raw genetics, the genetics that would be passed on to offspring- are poor. 

Breeding goals certainly vary within GSD lines, and I stress that strong nerves, clear-headedness, and ability to discern a threat should be priorities in any program. But, titles do not tell us if a dog might bite a child under these circumstances. I'd guess plenty of IPO3 dogs and police K9s might do the same, with possibly even worse damage. Because what this incident boils down to is handler error. 

I am in no way pointing the finger at the OP. Mistakes happen. They do. 

And maybe handler error doesn't matter either, and a dog that bites a kid should just be castrated. I can understand that argument. 

But why don't we give the person who actually has Major and knows him and is working him a bit of credit. None of us have seen this dog, worked the dog, or seen his pedigree or his siblings, dam, sire, etc. 

Genetics are what the dog was born with and what he'll pass on to his offspring. This incident in no way changes his genetics, and may not tell us much, if anything, about his genetics. 

I'm not advocating for breeding this dog. But I am saying there are many titled, health checked, dogs that are being bred with good outcomes who could-would bite a child with the wrong management, due to handler error, or just because the stars mis-aligned and there was the perfect storm of bad circumstances.

My response would be very, very different if Major had mauled the child, or persisted in a sustained attack.


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## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> I am very happy to hear how well Major is doing in his new home. Really great outcome! Good on the OP for making it happen.
> 
> It's so easy to judge on line. I'd be willing to bet that some of the World Champion IPO dogs, and many working police K9s could have would have bitten-nipped a child under the right circumstances, with the wrong training, or just when stuff happens. It happens.
> 
> It is because of handling, training, early socialization but moreover MANAGEMENT (which is a combination of all of the former) the dog never gets a chance to bite a non-threat.
> 
> This doesn't mean the dog, the raw genetics of the dog, would never bite a child. Discernment isn't always just there in a dog for every situation, especially when you have the complicated genetics of a police K9, or high level protection sport dog. In creating working dogs that go after fleeing people (non threats) we are breeding dogs that do carry defense and human aggression, to different degrees. We also seek a clear headed and discerning dog, of course, which means a dog that wouldn't harm a child, but that is a gray area, where management comes in and where genetics come in.
> 
> Just because this dog was in the wrong place, situation, and with an uncertain handler at the wrong time and bit-nipped (not mauled or attacked) a child- who if I remember correctly didn't even go to the ER until many hours later- does not mean the dog's raw genetics, the genetics that would be passed on to offspring- are poor.
> 
> Breeding goals certainly vary within GSD lines, and I stress that strong nerves, clear-headedness, and ability to discern a threat should be priorities in any program. But, titles do not tell us if a dog might bite a child under these circumstances. I'd guess plenty of IPO3 dogs and police K9s might do the same, with possibly even worse damage. Because what this incident boils down to is handler error.
> 
> I am in no way pointing the finger at the OP. Mistakes happen. They do.
> 
> And maybe handler error doesn't matter either, and a dog that bites a kid should just be castrated. I can understand that argument.
> 
> But why don't we give the person who actually has Major and knows him and is working him a bit of credit. None of us have seen this dog, worked the dog, or seen his pedigree or his siblings, dam, sire, etc.
> 
> Genetics are what the dog was born with and what he'll pass on to his offspring. This incident in no way changes his genetics, and may not tell us much, if anything, about his genetics.
> 
> I'm not advocating for breeding this dog. But I am saying there are many titled, health checked, dogs that are being bred with good outcomes who could-would bite a child with the wrong management, due to handler error, or just because the stars mis-aligned and there was the perfect storm of bad circumstances.
> 
> My response would be very, very different if Major had mauled the child, or persisted in a sustained attack.


That's how I see it also ... thanks.


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## selzer

How I see it, is that lots of insurance companies charge more or will not insure people who own GSDs. The reason is that there are a LOT of bites from our breed -- not maulings. Our breed is not naturally the kind of dog that go go goes until something stops moving. We might train a dog for protection or bitework and get more of that response out of the dog, but the percentage of GSDs that are trained in anything is so low that this number just doesn't matter. These are not the dogs biting people, save for police/mwd in the course of their jobs.

So, we have bites. When a GSD bites people generally go to the doctor or ER. Because we have a dog with the jaw strength of a pit bull and some pretty big mouths and teeth. A single GSD bite, will produce punctures, bruising and possibly tearing. A trip to the ER might include drains, stitches, antibiotics, etc. 

Really, the fact that dogs bite, whether out of aggression, protection, or fear, isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is when one dog ends up biting multiple people, mostly because the first bite was explained away or blamed on the victim and nothing changed and the dog bites again, and maybe again. 

In this case we have a dog that was quarantined by animal control and had to go up in front of a judge. Ok, c'mon, the five-year-old, the parents, Animal Control, ER doctor (who can lose their license to practice medicine), and the judge all got together to give this poor dog a bad rap, called a nip a bite? Sorry if I don't buy that. 

If this was my dog, I would put it down. I wouldn't rehome this dog because some idiot out there probably would want to make babies out of it, and I wouldn't be able to ensure that THIS dog did not bite another person. If someone gave me this dog back, after they had it, and it did this, than I would probably put it down. Probably. 

I understand that people love their dog and finding someone willing and able to assess, work with, and keep this dog is certainly understandable, and since we all love dogs, and we can see that there was fault on the handler, we are glad the dog is not dead. 

But breeding the dog? Considering breeding the dog? 

What do breeders see? 

Well, yes, discernment. A dog that cannot tell the difference between a serious threat and a five year old kid that he has played with several times, yeah sorry, but no, we do not need to reproduce that. 

And, startle-bite requiring stitches. First of all why should the dog be startled by a five year old. My dogs know that there is someone coming if they are sound asleep and they are awake and looking long before anyone is close enough to get up close and personal. And, a dog should not immediately bite -- that shouldn't be the go to action for a GSD. A tiny dog maybe. A GSD can afford a few seconds to assess the situation. If a dog bites out of a startle-response, than that's a fear-biter. What this breed does not need is more fear biters. It's not good character.

For a working dog, you need good character.
For a pet, you need good character. 
For a breed-representative, show dog, you need good character. 

Yes, there may be a lot of dogs out there that given the right set of circumstances might put a tooth into a kid. Lots of breeders may never know this, because as time and experience marches on, their breeding stock is being raised by people that are not making the kinds of mistakes that might cause a dog with good character to display poor character, or a dog with marginal character may be comfortable enough to be deemed better than poor character. So marginal dogs with excellent handling could be marked higher than they truly are. 

But, here we have a dog that did bite a small kid. So, it doesn't matter how many dogs out there might have done the same. We KNOW that this one did. Chip's dog didn't. His dog left the place where he was ordered to be in order to keep himself away from the toddler. Good dog. Good discernment. They do not have to LOVE children. But they can't be biting them either. 

Before a dog bites, they have options: 

They can bark -- "GO AWAY, MOM!!!! THIS BRAT IS GETTING ON MY NERVES!!!! SAVE ME!!!" 

They can growl, they can snarl, they can get up and move out of the kids way. They can snap, and they can close their mouth on the child's hand gently. They can even nip. 

When a dog goes directly to a bite. We have to look at that dog. We have to look at the circumstances. Was it a startle/fear bite? Was it lack of discernment threat bite? 

We chose to focus on the fact that if the dog's owner would have kept the dog on a leash near her, had a fence, or called to the dog to COME, rather than to the kid to STOP!!!! This may have never happened. Which is all true. But, the fact that it wouldn't have happened if, does not change the fact that THIS DOG WILL BITE LITTLE KIDS. Not all dogs will. Not all GSDs in that situation will bite the kid. A lot of our dogs would have stood up, and gave the kid a big sloppy kiss on the face. 

And it is MORE important for a working dog to be stable than it is for a pet. A pet that startle-bites, well the owner can keep the pet in the fenced back yard, and rigorously manage the environment. Crate or kennel when there is company, muzzle for walks. Not pleasant maybe, but the dog could live out its life with fair to good quality of life. But a working dog is useless that can't have the use of its muzzle, that can't be trusted. 

It is IN this dog to bite indiscriminately, or to bite out of being startled. The chances of the dog passing on this instability are enormous. It was by accident that we found this information out about the dog. We should not ignore the information because of the accident.

TL/DR: We discovered poor character on this dog through an accident. We should not ignore the character flaw because we discovered it this way. The accident only revealed what was there.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> How I see it, is that lots of insurance companies charge more or will not insure people who own GSDs. The reason is that there are a LOT of bites from our breed -- not maulings. Our breed is not naturally the kind of dog that go go goes until something stops moving. We might train a dog for protection or bitework and get more of that response out of the dog, but the percentage of GSDs that are trained in anything is so low that this number just doesn't matter. These are not the dogs biting people, save for police/mwd in the course of their jobs.
> 
> So, we have bites. When a GSD bites people generally go to the doctor or ER. Because we have a dog with the jaw strength of a pit bull and some pretty big mouths and teeth. A single GSD bite, will produce punctures, bruising and possibly tearing. A trip to the ER might include drains, stitches, antibiotics, etc.
> 
> Really, the fact that dogs bite, whether out of aggression, protection, or fear, isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is when one dog ends up biting multiple people, mostly because the first bite was explained away or blamed on the victim and nothing changed and the dog bites again, and maybe again.
> 
> In this case we have a dog that was quarantined by animal control and had to go up in front of a judge. Ok, c'mon, the five-year-old, the parents, Animal Control, ER doctor (who can lose their license to practice medicine), and the judge all got together to give this poor dog a bad rap, called a nip a bite? Sorry if I don't buy that.
> 
> If this was my dog, I would put it down. I wouldn't rehome this dog because some idiot out there probably would want to make babies out of it, and I wouldn't be able to ensure that THIS dog did not bite another person. If someone gave me this dog back, after they had it, and it did this, than I would probably put it down. Probably.
> 
> I understand that people love their dog and finding someone willing and able to assess, work with, and keep this dog is certainly understandable, and since we all love dogs, and we can see that there was fault on the handler, we are glad the dog is not dead.
> 
> But breeding the dog? Considering breeding the dog?
> 
> What do breeders see?
> 
> Well, yes, discernment. A dog that cannot tell the difference between a serious threat and a five year old kid that he has played with several times, yeah sorry, but no, we do not need to reproduce that.
> 
> And, startle-bite requiring stitches. First of all why should the dog be startled by a five year old. My dogs know that there is someone coming if they are sound asleep and they are awake and looking long before anyone is close enough to get up close and personal. And, a dog should not immediately bite -- that shouldn't be the go to action for a GSD. A tiny dog maybe. A GSD can afford a few seconds to assess the situation. If a dog bites out of a startle-response, than that's a fear-biter. What this breed does not need is more fear biters. It's not good character.
> 
> For a working dog, you need good character.
> For a pet, you need good character.
> For a breed-representative, show dog, you need good character.
> 
> Yes, there may be a lot of dogs out there that given the right set of circumstances might put a tooth into a kid. Lots of breeders may never know this, because as time and experience marches on, their breeding stock is being raised by people that are not making the kinds of mistakes that might cause a dog with good character to display poor character, or a dog with marginal character may be comfortable enough to be deemed better than poor character. So marginal dogs with excellent handling could be marked higher than they truly are.
> 
> But, here we have a dog that did bite a small kid. So, it doesn't matter how many dogs out there might have done the same. We KNOW that this one did. Chip's dog didn't. His dog left the place where he was ordered to be in order to keep himself away from the toddler. Good dog. Good discernment. They do not have to LOVE children. But they can't be biting them either.
> 
> Before a dog bites, they have options:
> 
> They can bark -- "GO AWAY, MOM!!!! THIS BRAT IS GETTING ON MY NERVES!!!! SAVE ME!!!"
> 
> They can growl, they can snarl, they can get up and move out of the kids way. They can snap, and they can close their mouth on the child's hand gently. They can even nip.
> 
> When a dog goes directly to a bite. We have to look at that dog. We have to look at the circumstances. Was it a startle/fear bite? Was it lack of discernment threat bite?
> 
> We chose to focus on the fact that if the dog's owner would have kept the dog on a leash near her, had a fence, or called to the dog to COME, rather than to the kid to STOP!!!! This may have never happened. Which is all true. But, the fact that it wouldn't have happened if, does not change the fact that THIS DOG WILL BITE LITTLE KIDS. Not all dogs will. Not all GSDs in that situation will bite the kid. A lot of our dogs would have stood up, and gave the kid a big sloppy kiss on the face.
> 
> And it is MORE important for a working dog to be stable than it is for a pet. A pet that startle-bites, well the owner can keep the pet in the fenced back yard, and rigorously manage the environment. Crate or kennel when there is company, muzzle for walks. Not pleasant maybe, but the dog could live out its life with fair to good quality of life. But a working dog is useless that can't have the use of its muzzle, that can't be trusted.
> 
> It is IN this dog to bite indiscriminately, or to bite out of being startled. The chances of the dog passing on this instability are enormous. It was by accident that we found this information out about the dog. We should not ignore the information because of the accident.
> 
> TL/DR: We discovered poor character on this dog through an accident. We should not ignore the character flaw because we discovered it this way. The accident only revealed what was there.


LOL ... 24 hours to think on it perhaps?? Outstanding explanation!! :laugh2:

I think it was necessary because since I've been here, I've not seen a "should this dog breed thread/case??" So this case is clearly slightly different??

Usually it's simply a matter of can this dog be saved?? This is the first ... should this dog be "Breed" thread that I have seen??

And I am fully in the "Save them all camp" no apologies there. But ... I get your standards ... pretty hard core! I respect that. 

And yeah I knew my dog would be a "PIA" still it did happen and I was certainly quite thrilled in the choice he made ... "crap happens!"

People that want a WL GSD are one thing. People that want a "GSD" are quite another safe to say JQP has no idea what a WL GSD is?? 

I can speak from first hand experiance on that one. 

Going forward if someone says simply, I want a GSD and they aren't interested in becoming a semi professional "Dog Trainer??" I'll happy point them your way! 

Well put ... I'm impressed!


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## Muskeg

Thanks for that explanation, Selzer. 

I understand and hear where you are coming from.

I disagree, however, that a pet with bad temperament is OK or easier to handle than a working dog with bad temperament. I think a pet with bad temperament is the absolute worst. It negates the whole reason of having a pet for most people which is enjoyment, companionship, a dog they can take everywhere, a family dog.

Keep in mind "bad temperament" varies a lot based on what you want in a dog and could be a whole separate thread. I do not think that biting a kid in this scenario alone describes bad temperament for every dog. Some extremely stable great working dogs would nail a known handler over a toy. Seen it. Wouldn't personally breed for it, but if the dog is excellent in all other ways, well...

I agree working K9s should have terrific temperament, strong solid nerves, and discernment. But, I think a lot of them don't have never-bite-kid temperament and I don't think it affects their working ability at all. They just won't be the dogs going into the elementary school for demos. I heard, but don't know because I haven't seen in person, that border patrol and some MWD can be very non-discerning as well. 

Personally, I prefer a dog that can switch on or off like the dog in this video, and literally breed for it. This is a KNPV PH-1 dog and KNPV is a fairly serious test of police K9 working ability (sorry off breed but it is what I know). Check out 4:30 in the video, dog sees kid approach from the front and side. When I was watching I thought, huh, could be trouble, but the dog wags his tail and goes to lick the child. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGMTJvJsD2s. This right after a protection demo. 

Would I personally breed a dog that bit a child under these circumstances? More than likely, no. I would also not euthanize the dog. 

Good discussion. You make a convincing argument for not breeding this dog, Sue.


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## Chip18

Hmm, well broader discussion as it were. Speaking for myself ...how does one determine if a dog has "faulty temperament" or if it's a flaw in "management" a lack of "rules structure and limitations" as it were. 

Rocky greeted company with a low growl and a cold hard stare, that's not something I'd train him to do?? I was stunned but "I assumed" the "fault" here was mine?? Someone other than myself could have "assumed" "faulty temperament" this dog is outa here! I "assumed" the fault lay with me. And "apparently I was correct but ... how can one know the difference??


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## ipopro

I would like to once again thank all involved and concerned for Major. He's doing wonderful!

Signing off!


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## GatorBytes

Nooo...don't go! We want updates. Don't let some opinions negate your obligation to our happy ending updates...Please


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## Jenny720

A lot of great points made on this thread. Well All I'm going to say is I'm very happy you decided to take major and give him a good home. I'm very happy major is in a home with an experienced trainer and that his life was spared as he did not deserve to put to sleep. I hope you give us updates on how major is doing. Someone mentioned putting some titles on Major or entering him in a sport - it would be great that this thread can be turned into a Major's bragging thread as his future did not look so bright a few weeks ago.


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## Chip18

ipopro said:


> I would like to once again thank all involved and concerned for Major. He's doing wonderful!
> 
> Signing off!


Aww don't be like that. Sometimes it's a bumpy road but all in all a pretty group here ... I think.


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