# Is my puppy in her crate too much?



## geissap

Jada is about 8 months old and her schedule during the week is something to this effect.

6:00 AM - Wake up and she goes outside for about 15-20 minutes and just roams around while I get breakfast ready
6:20 AM - She eats her breakfast in her crate and I leave for work so she's in her crate for about 1 hour until 7:20
7:20 AM - My wife takes her out and plays/trains with her in the yard until about 7:50. Then she's crated until lunch time...
12:00 - Go home and train/let her out for about 30 minutes then back to the crate
4:00-5:00 - I get home and let her out we play/train for about 30-1 hour and then she's back in her crate for dinner. 
7:30 - She comes out to play etc. for about 30-45 minutes then back to crate
9:30 - She comes back out to play etc. for about 30-45 minutes then back to her crate for the night. She doesn't usually go out at night but sometimes I wake up and let her out at like 3 AM.

Does this sound fairly normal to you other FULLTIME working people. If you don't work a fulltime job I honestly don't care what you do with your dog. I'm not looking for your response since your situation is completely different. 

I wish I could let Jada out to run around from 5:00 all the way to bed but there's just no way. Our house would be torn to shreds. She gets bored and starts gnawing on everything. She NEVER EVER lays down when she's out of her crate...the only way we can get her to lay down and take a chill pill is to crate her. Is that just how we do it at 8 months?


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## Pattycakes

I'm at work about 10 hrs a day, and I have about 1/2 hr travel time each way so its a total of 11 hrs that I'm out of the house. When my dog was a puppy she was crated a lot. Similar to your schedule, but I did let her out when I was home for short periods of time...but I had to watch her like a hawk. LOL She was confined to only the kitchen and family room. Up until about 3 months ago or so, she was in her crate from the time I left to work until I could get home at lunch, and then she was back in her crate until I got home. My dog was a serious chewer when she was younger. But one thing I did notice once I started letting her out of her crate more and giving her more freedom was that she started to calm down more. Now she is 21 months old and she is left out of her crate all day and she comes and goes outside via her doggie door. She hasn't chewed anything in a very long time. 


Do you take Jada out on walks? Socialize her with other dogs? Do you take her to an obedience class? I do know that really helped with my dogs energy level and it helped calm her down as she got older. 

Other than the fact that I left my dog out in the evenings, I had a very similar schedule that you have.


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## Kris10

I want to comment on the times she is crated when you are home for the evening. I think you should try to keep her out as much as possible when you are home with her. She needs to LEARN what not to chew on, what is okay to, and simply what good house manners are from YOU. I know it is exhausting to monitor her constantly, especially after a long day of work! But just having her out to play and then putting her back isn't going to allow you to shape her behavior as much. I have read somewhere on here a few times about tethering a pup to you so she can't sneak off and get into mischief--
It does get better with time and training!


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## Judahsmom

I'm wondering why she eats her meals in her crate? My husband and I both work full time. We're up with him at 6:00 a.m. when he goes out, plays and eats his breakfast until I leave around 7:30 a.m. We have a neighbor who comes over 3x day to let him out, feed him lunch and play with him. I get home around 5....take him out, walk him for an hour, do some training with him [at home] and he eats dinner. While we eat dinner, if he's too attentive to us and our food, we put him in a time out [no crate though]. We do this by having his leash on a hook which limits his ability to walk around. He is 7 months old and still learning commands so the time out re-enforces to stay away from our food. I have also trained him to "settle" [lay down] when I want him calm. We've learned that enough exercise is directly related to how "wild" he behaves...when he doesn't get enough, he's all over but when he's had enough, he really listens and obeys our commands.


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## Pattycakes

I agree with you, Kris10. I think my dog as she was growing up thought her name was "leave it", "no", "down". LOL It can be exhausting to watch them very closely when you get home when all you want to do is rest and relax a little...but it does help them get rid of their energy and learn what is right and wrong.


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## GSDAlphaMom

I agree with Kris. Why is the dog in the crate in the evenings when you are home?
Also by 8 months she should be able to sleep out of the crate at night. Simply put a doggie gate up (assuming she sleeps in your room) and she should sleep through the night. 

Mine start sleeping at night out of the crate at 5 months. They have beds in my room and I have a doggie gate up and there are issues.

Your dog is in the crate an awful lot. What about the weekends, is she out most of the weekend? I would not crate her while you are home.


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## geissap

Judahsmom said:


> I'm wondering why she eats her meals in her crate? My husband and I both work full time. We're up with him at 6:00 a.m. when he goes out, plays and eats his breakfast until I leave around 7:30 a.m. We have a neighbor who comes over 3x day to let him out, feed him lunch and play with him. I get home around 5....take him out, walk him for an hour, do some training with him [at home] and he eats dinner. While we eat dinner, if he's too attentive to us and our food, we put him in a time out [no crate though]. We do this by having his leash on a hook which limits his ability to walk around. He is 7 months old and still learning commands so the time out re-enforces to stay away from our food. I have also trained him to "settle" [lay down] when I want him calm. We've learned that enough exercise is directly related to how "wild" he behaves...when he doesn't get enough, he's all over but when he's had enough, he really listens and obeys our commands.


I've been told by many to have her eat in her crate. It helps them realize the crate is a good place. I wish we had someone to let our dog out 3 times a day but unfortunately that's just a no go. Overall this doesn't sound much different from us. Jada knows alot of commands, she goes to obedience school regularly, we do walk her (although something is up with her paw right now we were trying to rest it off but she's still babying it so we're gonna have to take her in since we can't find anything) but she gets worked pretty good. Alot of training, alot of ball, alot of frisbee, she sometimes runs with me short distances, etc.


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## geissap

GSDAlphaMom said:


> I agree with Kris. Why is the dog in the crate in the evenings when you are home?
> Also by 8 months she should be able to sleep out of the crate at night. Simply put a doggie gate up (assuming she sleeps in your room) and she should sleep through the night.
> 
> Mine start sleeping at night out of the crate at 5 months. They have beds in my room and I have a doggie gate up and there are issues.
> 
> Your dog is in the crate an awful lot. What about the weekends, is she out most of the weekend? I would not crate her while you are home.


I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Your dog must have a much different personality then ours. There is NO WAY on this planet earth I could let her sleep in our room at night. We would wake up to a torn carpet, torn pillows, chewed on furniture, etc. She wouldn't lay down...she never lays down when she's out of her crate. There is NO WAY she would lay in a doggie bed. She would chew it up, take the cotton out, etc. And she knows off! She just doesn't stay off for long. She gets bored. Same with down...I could put her in a down and she would stay down for maybe a minute but then she's gonna get up and start exploring. I could try tethering her at night, but then I'm like what's the point? If I tether her I might as well crate her so she's more comfortable?


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## LaRen616

I can see crating her when you are not home and crating her when you are sleeping. My boy is 2 years old and he is still crated when I am not home but he is no longer crated at night.

But when you are home and not sleeping then she should not be in her crate.

Too much crate time.


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## geissap

LaRen616 said:


> I can see crating her when you are not home and crating her when you are sleeping. My boy is 2 years old and he is still crated when I am not home but he is no longer crated at night.
> 
> But when you are home and not sleeping then she should not be in her crate.
> 
> Too much crate time.


What do you do when people come over? Like a large group...we often have 8-10 people over on a weekday night for a 2 hour bible study. Usually we crate her then...because she likes to jump, grab people's shoes, demands attention, and not everyone likes dogs. What do you do in this situation?


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## Whitedog404

I agree that she's in her crate a lot. I would feed her out of the crate and let her out until bedtime because how can you teach her to behave if she's not able to make any mistakes? At this point I see why she sleeps in a crate at night. I think a lot of 8 month old dogs aren't quite ready for a night of freedom. I just started letting my year old sleep in the bedroom without a crate and I've been surprised that from the first night, he would simply go to his bed and stay there all night. I was afraid he was going to spend the night pouncing on his older buddy, but that doesn't start until around 7:30 a.m., so they're good alarm clocks.


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## LaRen616

geissap said:


> What do you do when people come over? Like a large group...we often have 8-10 people over on a weekday night for a 2 hour bible study. Usually we crate her then...because she likes to jump, grab people's shoes, demands attention, and not everyone likes dogs. What do you do in this situation?


Between me and my cousin, there are always several people at my house. My dog is trained so he doesn't jump or grab their shoes, although he does love attention. I give him a treat ball or a toy and he lays down and plays with it and leaves the people alone. If someone wanted to come over and they didn't like dogs well then too bad for them, my dogs live there, if they dont like it then they dont come over. :shrug:


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## Wolfiesmom

geissap said:


> What do you do when people come over? Like a large group...we often have 8-10 people over on a weekday night for a 2 hour bible study. Usually we crate her then...because she likes to jump, grab people's shoes, demands attention, and not everyone likes dogs. What do you do in this situation?


When we have large groups of people, I usually let Wolfie greet them when they come in. If he gets too demanding then I crate him in the other room. If it's daylight, then he goes outside to play. He is 14 months old right now, and he is a lot better than he used to be. Most of the time, I don't have to crate him with a lot of people over, but it is a matter of getting him accustomed to it. As for the people who don't like dogs, my theory is, it's your dog's home as well, so they better get used to it, or not come over.


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## geissap

Whitedog404 said:


> I agree that she's in her crate a lot. I would feed her out of the crate and let her out until bedtime because how can you teach her to behave if she's not able to make any mistakes? At this point I see why she sleeps in a crate at night. I think a lot of 8 month old dogs aren't quite ready for a night of freedom. I just started letting my year old sleep in the bedroom without a crate and I've been surprised that from the first night, he would simply go to his bed and stay there all night. I was afraid he was going to spend the night pouncing on his older buddy, but that doesn't start until around 7:30 a.m., so they're good alarm clocks.


Haha yea we're gonna have this going on too. We have two cats and Jada loves to run off and terrorize them unexpectedly. She loves them...they hate her. If either of our cats jumped off the bed at night Jada's gonna run after them, but we'll see what happens. I'm gonna start letting her out more. Maybe she will eventually lay down if I let her out for a long time. But yesterday we worked in the yard and so she was outside in the backyward with us for roughly 3 hours. We brought her in and she wouldn't lay down...she wanted to play tug, she would try to chew the courches, etc. etc. We had her out another 30-45 minutes in the house and laying down never crossed her mind.


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## Mrs.K

geissap said:


> I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Your dog must have a much different personality then ours. There is NO WAY on this planet earth I could let her sleep in our room at night. We would wake up to a torn carpet, torn pillows, chewed on furniture, etc. She wouldn't lay down...she never lays down when she's out of her crate. There is NO WAY she would lay in a doggie bed. She would chew it up, take the cotton out, etc. And she knows off! She just doesn't stay off for long. She gets bored. Same with down...I could put her in a down and she would stay down for maybe a minute but then she's gonna get up and start exploring. I could try tethering her at night, but then I'm like what's the point? If I tether her I might as well crate her so she's more comfortable?


How is she supposed to know better since she's crated 90% of the day? 

I have a half year old puppy that sleeps outside his crate ever since he's 4-5 months old. 

What do you do to exercise your 8 month old? Is the pup undergoing any mental or physical stimulation?


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## GSDAlphaMom

Mrs K is right. No wonder that dog has so much energy when she is out of the crate. She's trying to expend some of because she is locked up the majority of the time. I think you would find if she got enough exercise, attention, and time outside of the crate you would not see all of that unwanted behavior.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Sorry an afterthought...maybe a dog doesn't fit into your lifestyle? Have you considered placing her in a home where she can be a dog? I feel bad for her.

I have 4 gsd's and they all sleep in my room at night uncrated...and have since they were 5 months old. At 18 months they get free roam of the house when I am gone (after successful testing that is.  )


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## Whiteshepherds

geissap said:


> Does this sound fairly normal to you other FULLTIME working people. If you don't work a fulltime job I honestly don't care what you do with your dog. I'm not looking for your response since your situation is completely different.
> 
> I wish I could let Jada out to run around from 5:00 all the way to bed but there's just no way. Our house would be torn to shreds. She gets bored and starts gnawing on everything. She NEVER EVER lays down when she's out of her crate*...the only way we can get her to lay down and take a chill pill is to crate her.* Is that just how we do it at 8 months?


I work full time at home but I'm going to answer anyway. 

It sounds like you have a good schedule during the day, but she isn't learning to "settle" unless she's in her crate...meaning, when that door opens she knows it's time to run around and play. (or train) 

You've taught her that when she's in the crate it's time to chill. That's a good thing. Now you have to teach her that she can chill when she's not in the crate...this is harder to do and takes more patience for sure but it can be done.

Try simple things like after she runs around for half an hour tell her to lay down on her mat, rug, floor, couch, chair, "whatever" and give her a stuffed Kong or favorite chew toy. Or, put her in a down and brush her, massage her etc. She needs to learn that being out of her crate doesn't always mean it's time to run around.


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## LaRen616

If your pup is crated everytime people come over, how do you socialize her then?

Can you give her a toy to occupy her when your friends are over?

Put some peanut butter in a kong

Give her a Everlasting Treat Ball or a Tug-A-Jug


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## Pattycakes

My GSD slept in my room in her crate at night. She always settled down right away and never whined. 

At around 14 months she was left outside her crate at night to sleep and she had free run of the house during that time. Never once did she chew or destroy anything. She would alternate her time between my room and the family room. 

Letting your dog out of her crate and letting her run and play...and yes...try to chew things is all part of her growing and learning process. 

Good luck!


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## geissap

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Sorry an afterthought...maybe a dog doesn't fit into your lifestyle? Have you considered placing her in a home where she can be a dog? I feel bad for her.
> 
> I have 4 gsd's and they all sleep in my room at night uncrated...and have since they were 5 months old. At 18 months they get free roam of the house when I am gone (after successful testing that is.  )


No, I'm good I'm gonna keep the dog you'll have to deal with your emotions I can't help ya with that one. I regret even asking this...I usually regret asking something in these forums because the opinions are so drastically different from one user to another. 

Our lifestyle isn't that busy we work a normal 40 hour week like 75% of the dog owners that exist out there. She's worked, we walk with her, she gets jogged with, she's knows alot of commands, we play ball with her frequently, we play frisbee with her, she goes with to the store often, I gave you a worse case daily scenario to see how many of you would cry for CPS, but overall my dog is living a life that is much better than the average dog out there. Perfect dog owners were not but she's happy and we're happy with her. Everyone always dives into the deep end though and goes into a panic attack when someone isn't parenting there dog like they do...


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## GSDAlphaMom

Your defensiveness says it all. Spending 80-90% of life in a crate is hardly a life better than the average dog. Poor dog.


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## LaRen616

LaRen616 said:


> If your pup is crated everytime people come over, how do you socialize her then?
> 
> *Can you give her a toy to occupy her when your friends are over?*
> 
> *Put some peanut butter in a kong*
> 
> *Give her a Everlasting Treat Ball or a Tug-A-Jug*


Can you do this instead of crating her when people are over?


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## geissap

Whiteshepherds said:


> I work full time at home but I'm going to answer anyway.
> 
> It sounds like you have a good schedule during the day, but she isn't learning to "settle" unless she's in her crate...meaning, when that door opens she knows it's time to run around and play. (or train)
> 
> You've taught her that when she's in the crate it's time to chill. That's a good thing. Now you have to teach her that she can chill when she's not in the crate...this is harder to do and takes more patience for sure but it can be done.
> 
> Try simple things like after she runs around for half an hour tell her to lay down on her mat, rug, floor, couch, chair, "whatever" and give her a stuffed Kong or favorite chew toy. Or, put her in a down and brush her, massage her etc. She needs to learn that being out of her crate doesn't always mean it's time to run around.


This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted this. Not the "Oh you should give up your dog you're to busy!" Great suggestions...I will try this. 

As for the rest, alot of you are speaking in superlatives that I never really stated. She socializes alot, but bottom line is the majority of the socialization stage happens between 8-16 months. She comes out alot when people are over, and people bring there dogs over often and stuff. However, when we have a Bible study and we're discussing and reading out of the Bible in a deep discussion, Jada just doesn't belong in that setting. If were playing board games, she's out and about. If a couple people are over just on the couch, she may be out for a bit. Nothing is an absolute like you all are trying to make it. I can't map out each and everyday independently, I gave you a very generic template that is used. That is all...


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## Kris10

This is hilarious! YOU came here with a question and asked for advice--Now you argue with anyone who tells you what you don't want to hear. Think about it---You must have realized there was a problem, otherwise you would not have asked the question. 

There is no magical solution. Time +Work+ Patience= Good Dog.


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## geissap

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Your defensiveness says it all. Spending 80-90% of life in a crate is hardly a life better than the average dog. Poor dog.


You're so right! Good job GSDAlphaMom...you have my entire life figured out by one post. Again I posted one general template, not all days go like that and certainly not weekends. I love how you've accessed my dogs entire life based off of 3 paragraphs. It's unbelievable...you asked no questions...offered no advice...just placed judgment on everything based off of a couple posts about someones entire life. You're right I should give the dog up to anther home...I heard transferring a dog to another home at 8 months is a GREAT experience for them.


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## GSDGunner

geissap said:


> This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted this. Not the "Oh you should give up your dog you're to busy!" Great suggestions...I will try this.
> 
> As for the rest, alot of you are speaking in superlatives that I never really stated. She socializes alot, but bottom line is the majority of the socialization stage happens between 8-16 months. She comes out alot when people are over, and people bring there dogs over often and stuff. However, when we have a Bible study and we're discussing and reading out of the Bible in a deep discussion, Jada just doesn't belong in that setting. If were playing board games, she's out and about. If a couple people are over just on the couch, she may be out for a bit. Nothing is an absolute like you all are trying to make it. I can't map out each and everyday independently, I gave you a very generic template that is used. That is all...


I understand your frustration, but seriously, the majority of people here are trying to help. Is it info you didn't ask for? Maybe not, but what is the harm in listening? Maybe it's stuff you already know, but the people here don't know that and are genuine in their help. Giving ideas outside the box is always a good thing but you aren't seeing it that way.
Only on person made the suggestion of rehoming, so it's unfair to take that out on others.
I was going to make a post but will refrain after being told "That is all".
Good luck and take care.


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## GSDAlphaMom

[6:00 AM - Wake up and she goes outside for about 15-20 minutes and just roams around while I get breakfast ready
6:20 AM - She eats her breakfast in her crate and I leave for work so she's in her crate for about 1 hour until 7:20
7:20 AM - My wife takes her out and plays/trains with her in the yard until about 7:50. Then she's crated until lunch time...
12:00 - Go home and train/let her out for about 30 minutes then back to the crate
4:00-5:00 - I get home and let her out we play/train for about 30-1 hour and then she's back in her crate for dinner. 
7:30 - She comes out to play etc. for about 30-45 minutes then back to crate
9:30 - She comes back out to play etc. for about 30-45 minutes then back to her crate for the night. She doesn't usually go out at night but sometimes I wake up and let her out at like 3 AM.

.[/QUOTE]

This is what we know...because this is what you told us... and we are basing our suggestions on what you stated. NOw you say the dog has all this other time out and exercise. So which is it? If the dog is crated 80-90% of the time that is too much, period.

It's good to hear you are in a bible study.


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## geissap

Kris10 said:


> This is hilarious! YOU came here with a question and asked for advice--Now you argue with anyone who tells you what you don't want to hear. Think about it---You must have realized there was a problem, otherwise you would not have asked the question.
> 
> There is no magical solution. Time +Work+ Patience= Good Dog.


Do you guys actually read the posts? I've responded to MULTIPLE people saying that those are "Good suggestions" "That might not work with my dog but I might give that a try" "That's good I will try that" "Thanks for that advice"

The only person that I've fired back at is the one who said I should give up my dog.


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## Mrs.K

geissap said:


> This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted this. Not the "Oh you should give up your dog you're to busy!" Great suggestions...I will try this.
> 
> As for the rest, alot of you are speaking in superlatives that I never really stated. She socializes alot, but bottom line is the majority of the socialization stage happens between 8-16 months. She comes out alot when people are over, and people bring there dogs over often and stuff. However, when we have a Bible study and we're discussing and reading out of the Bible in a deep discussion, Jada just doesn't belong in that setting. If were playing board games, she's out and about. If a couple people are over just on the couch, she may be out for a bit. Nothing is an absolute like you all are trying to make it. I can't map out each and everyday independently, I gave you a very generic template that is used. That is all...


Being busy is the number one excuse to give up a dog. 

Socialization starts when the pup is born and continues once it moves into the new place. It should be an ongoing thing and NEVER stop. 

She is crated too much, period!

It's giving me the peeve. If you think that your dog doesn't belong in the setting of you playing boardgames... where does that leave your dog?



> bottom line is the majority of the socialization stage happens between 8-16 months.


And this is wrong. The prime stage of socialization happens BEFORE 8-16 and should be an ongoing thing. Like I said, it should never stop and socialization, especially in puppyhood is very important. 

Also, take your dog out on hikes, go to a dog club and get her some formal training. It will be a huge change. I guarantee you, if you take your dog to formal training, go hiking with her at least twice a week (which can be the weekend) you will see a difference.


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## geissap

GSDGunner said:


> I understand your frustration, but seriously, the majority of people here are trying to help. Is it info you didn't ask for? Maybe not, but what is the harm in listening? Maybe it's stuff you already know, but the people here don't know that and are genuine in their help. Giving ideas outside the box is always a good thing but you aren't seeing it that way.
> Only on person made the suggestion of rehoming, so it's unfair to take that out on others.
> I was going to make a post but will refrain after being told "That is all".
> Good luck and take care.


I completely disagree with what you're saying here. I don't see where I've taken it out on anyone else? I've simply responded to clarify my situation and/or thanked them and said they have good suggestions. I'm not sure where you're seeing my unacceptance towards good ideas? I don't fel like I'm taking it out on everyone. 

YES! I do think that GSDAlphaMom offers nothing to this conversation and I have no desire to speak to her. So if you're referring to that individual you are right. I don't want her suggestions if her suggestion is to give up the dog. 

The "That is All" was in reference to the general template. I mean yes there is the potential that on a day she could potentially be crated for 80% of the time, but EVERY book you all gave me to read and referenced said that she is to come out for short play periods which in my mind meant about an hour. Then she is to be crated for naps. It's that template that I was following. I'm finding out now that maybe that was only for the first couple weeks. I'm going to start letting her out more based off this very conversation. I just didn't know, and now I do, I was never really given a shot to say "I can do that" or "We can give that try" The conversation went straight into..."You need to rehome your dog with your lifestyle" But I'm not allowed to get a little defensive?


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## GSDAlphaMom

Good golly, my intent surely wasn't to upset you so. I did indeed have suggestions...
sleep out of the crate, spend more time out of the crate, exercise more, consider if it's the right home for a dog. I don't think there's anything wrong wtih any of those suggestions.

I wasn't attacking you personally and still am not. You are correct we do not know your life, all we know is what you post and reactions do give some insight. 

I'm done with this thread. I truly am glad you are in that bible study, and I will add gessip to my prayer list.


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## lovethebreed

I just looked up defensive in the dictionary and sure enough it said geissap. lol

Lady people are giving you suggestions and all appear valid to me. You have issues with the ones you don't like. I suggest not coming to a forum and asking for advice if you are going to go off the deep end on advice you don't like.


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## geissap

Mrs.K said:


> Being busy is the number one excuse to give up a dog.
> 
> Socialization starts when the pup is born and continues once it moves into the new place. It should be an ongoing thing and NEVER stop.
> 
> She is crated too much, period!
> 
> It's giving me the peeve. If you think that your dog doesn't belong in the setting of you playing boardgames... where does that leave your dog?
> 
> 
> 
> And this is wrong. The prime stage of socialization happens BEFORE 8-16 and should be an ongoing thing. Like I said, it should never stop and socialization, especially in puppyhood is very important.
> 
> Also, take your dog out on hikes, go to a dog club and get her some formal training. It will be a huge change. I guarantee you, if you take your dog to formal training, go hiking with her at least twice a week (which can be the weekend) you will see a difference.


Oh my goodness...You have literally read NOT ONE THING I have said, and then responded haha. I literally said the following, "If were playing board games, she's out and about." Yet you just said in your post and I quote, "If you think that your dog doesn't belong in the setting of you playing boardgames... where does that leave your dog?" I actually said the exact opposite of what your accusing me of. 

I also said, that my dog is in formal training. We go every Tuesday night to a place called AllDogAdventures here in Richmond, VA. She's currently on her second set of classes somewhere near her 15-20th class. She's in Level 3 of her class, once she completes Level 3 she'll be ready for her CGC. Again I had already stated in another post that she's in class...you just didn't read it? I also stated she goes on walks with us and runs with me. I run between a mile or two a time with her and we do that roughly twice a week cause I don't worry about her bones during growth. 

I never said I have stopped socialization. Every book I've read though states that the main period of socialization is between 8-16 weeks. Meaning that is the most crucial part. That is when we had SEVERAL people over daily so she could socialize her...we took her for fake vet visits...we took her to Petco...and we were taking her to class twice a week instead of once a week. I didn't give you that time frame to say she NEVER is socialized anymore you just read into it like that. 

Again you all have to read what I'm saying...Mrs K you literally didn't read anything I've said...


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## GSDGunner

geissap said:


> Do you guys actually read the posts? I've r*esponded to MULTIPLE people saying that those are "Good suggestions" *"That might not work with my dog but I might give that a try" "That's good I will try that" "Thanks for that advice"
> 
> The only person that I've fired back at is the one who said I should give up my dog.


You must be reading a different thread because I just went through the entire thread and saw one, not multiple. 
*This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted this. Not the "Oh you should give up your dog you're to busy!" Great suggestions...I will try this. 
* 
Followed by this!
*As for the rest, alot of you are speaking in superlatives that I never really stated. She socializes alot, but bottom line is the majority of the socialization stage happens between 8-16 months. She comes out alot when people are over, and people bring there dogs over often and stuff. However, when we have a Bible study and we're discussing and reading out of the Bible in a deep discussion, Jada just doesn't belong in that setting. If were playing board games, she's out and about. If a couple people are over just on the couch, she may be out for a bit. Nothing is an absolute like you all are trying to make it. I can't map out each and everyday independently, I gave you a very generic template that is used. That is all... *

Most advice or suggestion was met with rebuttals of why they would not work.


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## geissap

lovethebreed said:


> I just looked up defensive in the dictionary and sure enough it said geissap. lol
> 
> Lady people are giving you suggestions and all appear valid to me. You have issues with the ones you don't like. I suggest not coming to a forum and asking for advice if you are going to go off the deep end on advice you don't like.


Oh definitely...isn't that the point of the forums. It's impossible to take everyones advice on here. You have to read some suggestion and pick the ones that work for you or go with what you've learned in books etc. 

Let me give you a PERFECT example. Go ahead and go post this..."At what age should I spay my dog?" Then try to follow everyone's suggestions. I guarantee it will be impossible, some will say you shouldn't spay your dog ever! You should do it before first heat! You should do it after a year and half! It'll be impossible to follow all the suggestions...which is the exact same thing that happens when you post anything on these forums. Alot of things are subjective. Everyone parents different, and just because someone does it different doesn't make it wrong. 

So yes you are correct I do have issues with ones I don't like...that's absolutely my right. I don't understand why that bothers you. There's also alot of suggestions that have been given that I like and I'm going to try. Rehoming my dog isn't one of the options I'm looking at though no matter how valid you think that suggestion is. 

If I just nodded my head and agreed with everything that everyone said on these forums that would make me a bad dog parent not a good one. I have seen some very quesitonable suggestions on these boards. Not all of them are winners...


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## lovethebreed

I honestly don't believe anyone on this board would expect you to agree with all suggestions. Logic says use the ones that work for you and disregard the rest.

It's the anger and venom you exude that is catching us offguard.
I don't know what kind of bible study you are in but the people I know in the word are much kinder and gentler.


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## Zoeys mom

I would leave her out of the crate when you are home- they do need to learn to have manners with guests and know what is and isn't appropriate to mouth and gnaw on. If she chews at night though crate her it's fair since you can't supervise her! Other than that the rule should be when you or your wife are home she is out with the family- GSD's definitely have a lot of energy and the more down time they have in the crate the more exercise they will need.

I work from 9am-3pm each day and my hubby from 5am-7pm. Our lab who is older is out and Zoe in her crate. They get a run at 7, breakfast at 8, and then she is crated at 9 when I leave until 3 each day. However, when we are home she is out of her crate at all times with the family.


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## GSDGunner

geissap said:


> I completely disagree with what you're saying here. I don't see where I've taken it out on anyone else? I've simply responded to clarify my situation and/or thanked them and said they have good suggestions. I'm not sure where you're seeing my unacceptance towards good ideas? I don't fel like I'm taking it out on everyone.


Like I said, there was no "thanks, but that won't work" in any post I've seen. Instead it was "there is NO WAY......".

I'm sorry you took my post so offensively, but I thought it was well intentioned, non accusatory and was trying to help you see that the majority were trying to help, where you were focusing on one persons suggestion of rehoming.



> I* was never really given a shot to say "I can do that" or "We can give that try" The conversation went straight into.*.."You need to rehome your dog with your lifestyle" But I'm not allowed to get a little defensive?


I'm confused, how can you say you were not given a shot, when you just said you "thanked them and said they have good suggestions."
There's no such thing as not getting a shot. You have the ability to type whenever you please.
You have every right to be defensive in reply to something you don't agree with. But honestly,GSDAlphaMom was not being mean spirited in her original post. A simple, no would have sufficed and move on.


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## LaRen616

Let's all calm down.

OP, the example you gave us does sounded like too much crate time. That example is not fair to the dog, it just isn't fair to be stuck in a small space for that long. We are all GSD lovers here, we only want what is best for the dog.

I honestly believe that socialization should be a forever on going thing.

I think you should teach the puppy not to jump up, not to chew things she shouldn't and not to deman attention. Then she wouldn't have to be in her crate as much as she is. 

She is never going to learn unless you teach her.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

My husband and I work 40 hours per week and also work over a half hour away from home, so that does translate into a lot of crate/confinement time for our dogs, although I do have a live in "dog sitter" (my brother, who is a college student and only goes to class 4 hours per day). 

At any rate, everyone's philosophy is different but for my dogs, the only time they're in their crates is when we're gone or when we're sleeping. I see nothing wrong with a dog eating or sleeping in their crates if they like to do so. Some dogs simply prefer their crates.

However, I do believe your dog is spending way too much time in her crate when you aren't gone, and when she's not eating or sleeping. How long does it take her to eat? As soon as she's done, I'd recommend some outside time. My dogs tend to have to go to the bathroom when they're done eating, so if your dog is left in her crate after she's done eating, she does not get the opportunity to go... when perhaps she has to.

By the time she was 8 months old, my GSD was well behaved enough outside of her crate that we could have people over (even for a Bible study type gathering) without her bothering us too much. Again, that is your personal preference, but for us we don't have people over who don't like dogs. Anyone invited to our house for any reason is advised that we have large, friendly, hairy dogs and they had best be prepared for that. However, if your dog is content in her crate during Bible study, there really is no reason why she shouldn't be in there for that activity. I am glad to hear that you let her out for other social gatherings (board game nights, etc.).

You can teach her to be content outside of her crate... the crate is a tool that can be phased out as training progresses. She can be taught to leave people alone without the necessity of crating... and then she could wander about at will without the confinement or any disruption of your Bible study. I would still leave her crate available to her... it's possible she'd prefer the sanctuary of her crate.

I am concerned that if she is such a hellion outside of her crate, it might mean she's not getting enough exercise. Each dog is different... and while some GSDs can be content with walks/jogs, others need more mentally stimulating activities/exercise (obedience work, agility, tracking, etc.) to truly tire them out. I would recommend upping the mental exercise to tire her out more. (Obviously at this young age, too much physical exercise is not a good idea).

Hope this helps.


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## lonestarag05

Im new to this forum, but something ive noticed is the sentiment by some that owning a dog when you have a normal job is a prohibitive environment. I find that to be patently absurd.

Having said that, the below post by Rott-n-GSDs is a really good post. If you're at home try as much as possible to make up for the time in crate.


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## GSDGunner

geissap said:


> I never said I have stopped socialization. Every book I've read though states that the main period of socialization is between 8-16 weeks.


I feel I must point out that you said in another post:



> She socializes alot, but bottom line is the majority of the socialization stage happens between 8-16 *months*.


Seems a typo has occurred and caused yet another firestorm.


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## LaRen616

lonestarag05 said:


> Im new to this forum, but something ive noticed is the sentiment by some that owning a dog when you have a normal job is a prohibitive environemnt. I find that to be patently absurd.


We do not have a problem with people who have normal jobs and crate their dogs while they are away at work. 

We have a problem with people that crate their dogs while they are at work, and while they are home and while they are sleeping. Too much crate time. 

I work 6am-2:30pm my dog is crated during that time unless my cousin is home with him, when I get home he is out of his crate until 6am the next morning. So he is crated for 8.5 hours a day.


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## Kris10

lonestarag05 said:


> Im new to this forum, but something ive noticed is the sentiment by some that owning a dog when you have a normal job is a prohibitive environemnt. I find that to be patently absurd.


The OP takes the pup out before work to run around and comes home lunch time too, which is great.  The time that the pup is crated while he/she is at HOME and how time out of it can best be used is what people are trying to help with.


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## GSDLongTimer

Gunner makes a good point. No one has been mean spirited. I read through the thread and see nothing but valid suggestions from people who care about the dog. GSDAlphaMom didn't tell you to rehome the dog, she ask if rehoming should be considered. 

You accused Mrs K of not reading your posts, are you reading through these or skimming? Your reactions are so strong I wonder if you are skimming and missing the intention behind posts. The only ugly posts on this thread have come from you.

You have many good suggestions here to choose from as to what fits your lifestye best.


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## Good_Karma

I remember a period of time when my dogs were puppies together when I despaired of ever being able to have them outside of their crates together in the house. We would let them out and it was "play, play, play" all the time and as they got larger, that became more of a problem for obvious reasons.

Fortunately my husband (he's the smart one in our relationship) realized that in order to teach them to settle down in the house, we had to give them the opportunity to try, and to do our best to set them up for success (plenty of exercise beforehand and lots of chew toys to keep them occupied while they were loose in the house).

I think I am right when I assume that you would like to be able to let your dog out more in the house while you are home, so now you just need to learn how to teach her to leave your things alone. I hope that the advice you have been given on this thread helps you to do this.


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## GSDGunner

GSDLongTimer said:


> Gunner makes a good point. No one has been mean spirited. I read through the thread and see nothing but valid suggestions from people who care about the dog. GSDAlphaMom didn't tell you to rehome the dog, she ask if rehoming should be considered.
> 
> You accused Mrs K of not reading your posts, are you reading through these or skimming? Your reactions are so strong I wonder if you are skimming and missing the intention behind posts. The only ugly posts this thread have come from you.
> 
> You have many good suggestions here to choose from as to what fits your lifestye best.


Well said (and not because you mentioned me. )

To the OP, if we can return to this conversation without attitudes from anyone, it might just be beneficial. 
A simple, "thanks but that won't work for me" is all that's needed and hopefully there will be another suggestion in it's place.
And to show I am sincere, I will apologize to you if you think I was being mean spirited!


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## Emoore

lonestarag05 said:


> Im new to this forum, but something ive noticed is the sentiment by some that owning a dog when you have a normal job is a prohibitive environment. I find that to be patently absurd.


Having a normal job isn't a problem. The problem is when your dog is crated when you're at work, when you're gone for social engagements, when you're gone for dinner, when you have friends over, when you want to relax, and when you're sleeping.

Unfortunately, having a 40-hr workweek and a GSD puppy means that your dog kind of needs to be your life for the first year or two. Anything else (like crating 20 hours per day) just isn't fair to the dog. 

Maybe the pup could have a doggy playdate during Bible study? Either in the backyard with a canine friend or at the friend's house? Maybe a neighbor walker or jogger would like a canine companion on those nights?

The title of this thread is "Is my puppy in her crate too much?" We all agree that the answer to that is yes. Now it's time to do some creative brainstorming and figure out ways to reduce that time. 

To the OP: I do work from home, and for 2 years straight I went to my neighbor's house every day and let their dog out to play with my dog. I didn't charge for this as it provided good play and socialization as well, although they did give me nice Christmas and birthday gifts.  Maybe you could find a stay-at-home mom or someone in your neighborhood that works from home with a similar situation?


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## GSDGunner

When Gunner was a pup, he was only crated when I left the house (I do not work) and sleep time.
I decided when he was a year old to test him. We took down the puppy gates and gave him access to the house. We looked at it like this. He needs to earn his freedom and if he's good, he can stay out.
Guess what, he was good and got freedom.
Next step was his first night out of the crate. Again, he didn't disappoint.
There was not so much as a hair out of place, so to speak. It was if he realized that he needed to behave in order to have that freedom?
Did he really think that? Haha, probably not. But he's been "free" for over a year and a half and he's never done anything he shouldn't.

It takes giving freedom to let them learn they like it. Doing something undesirable will lead them back to "jail". 
If she's always crated, she can't learn how to behave when she's not.


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## Pattycakes

GSDGunner said:


> When Gunner was a pup, he was only crated when I left the house (I do not work) and sleep time.
> I decided when he was a year old to test him. We took down the puppy gates and gave him access to the house. We looked at it like this. He needs to earn his freedom and if he's good, he can stay out.
> Guess what, he was good and got freedom.
> Next step was his first night out of the crate. Again, he didn't disappoint.
> There was not so much as a hair out of place, so to speak. It was if he realized that he needed to behave in order to have that freedom?
> Did he really think that? Haha, probably not. But he's been "free" for over a year and a half and he's never done anything he shouldn't.
> 
> It takes giving freedom to let them learn they like it. Doing something undesirable will lead them back to "jail".
> If she's always crated, she can't learn how to behave when she's not.


Exactly.


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## wolfspirit

From your schedule it seems that your dog is crated 20/21 hours of the day. So only gets around 3-4 hours of the day where she can walk/move around freely. 

I think it really is no wonder that she is crazy when she is out of her crate. I would get up earlier in the morning and take her for a proper walk before work as well as having your wife play with her in the yard. And another walk again in the evening and then if you have people over, have her on a lead beside you with a stuffed kong and start to teach her a 'settle' on command. 

My puppy was out of his crate by 5 months and has never chewed a thing (and he is a fairly high drive working line) but he had a ton of exercise and was always ready for a sleep when I left him.


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## geissap

Ok wow...well I simply can't respond to all of you here so I'll try to hit some highlights. I think you all are right, and you're absolutely right my original post was simply to figure out if she's crated to long. I thought that the amount I had her crated was normal. It's clear that it's not normal and I need to get her out of the crate more. So we will definitely be doing that tonight. 

2nd point I can definitely take her for a walk in the morning. Although she has an issue with her paw right now that I have to take her to the vet on, so her physical activity is going to be limited now. I have no idea what's up with her paw, we've looked at it and we see nothing so it may be internal. 

I'm definitely not opposed to having her out of her crate when people are over, I do have one hesitation though. Often times for a bible study kids will come too, like 2 year olds. I just don't know how to handle that. Jada is 60 lbs. and she could potentially hurt one of those kids and I have a liability on my hands. 

We've been working with her on jumping up on people etc. in class, but even our instructor said that GSD's are one of the hardest ones to break on the jumping thing. Jumping is considered a self-rewarding behavior, and GSD's are smart enough to figure that out so it can be very tough to break. We try trust me, but she's just not quite there yet. She knows alot of stuff, Jada knows, sit, down, off, up, paw, nose/touch, circle (she goes in a circle), come (although her recall isn't that great yet). I mean we definitely work with her but it sounds like we need to give up more time which I'm ok with.

I'll definitely try working some different angles and adjusting some things to see what happens here. I gotta deal with this paw issue though first cause that's definitely gonna hold us back right now. GSD's are such workhorses...sometimes she acts like nothings wrong with her paw but then other times I'll see her kind of limp on it a bit, but then she'll turn around and sprint full on. So I can't quite figure it out...


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## Emoore

geissap said:


> I'm definitely not opposed to having her out of her crate when people are over, I do have one hesitation though. Often times for a bible study kids will come too, like 2 year olds. I just don't know how to handle that. Jada is 60 lbs. and she could potentially hurt one of those kids and I have a liability on my hands. .


Something to think about: This Bible study is happening at _your_ home. If you can be gracious enough to allow people to bring their two year olds and let them run around and do whatever it is two-year olds do while you're trying to have Bible study (because I'm sure they're not silent and attentive through the whole thing), the other adults can darn sure be gracious enough to deal with your dog, who is probably better-behaved than a lot of toddlers. They (the adults) don't like dogs? Tough. Maybe you don't like their kids. 

That said, the kids and the dog do need to be protected from each other. She should be on-leash or kept separate from the little kids.


Big kudos to you for being teachable and willing to change things for the welfare of your dog, by the way.


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## geissap

GSDGunner said:


> When Gunner was a pup, he was only crated when I left the house (I do not work) and sleep time.
> I decided when he was a year old to test him. We took down the puppy gates and gave him access to the house. We looked at it like this. He needs to earn his freedom and if he's good, he can stay out.
> Guess what, he was good and got freedom.
> Next step was his first night out of the crate. Again, he didn't disappoint.
> There was not so much as a hair out of place, so to speak. It was if he realized that he needed to behave in order to have that freedom?
> Did he really think that? Haha, probably not. But he's been "free" for over a year and a half and he's never done anything he shouldn't.
> 
> It takes giving freedom to let them learn they like it. Doing something undesirable will lead them back to "jail".
> If she's always crated, she can't learn how to behave when she's not.


Hmm maybe my dog is better than I'm giving her credit for. The thing is some of you explain how you just give the dog a chew toy and they're good. No...Jada's not like that. I'm not trying to argue with you but she doesn't just play with toys like that. Unless it's a stuffed kong which has food in it, but then she'll simply empty the food eat it in literally 30 seconds and want nothing to do with it. Now she loves to play tug, but she's not gonna do tug by herself. We have to pull on it and keep her entertained, and there's just no way I can pay tug with her from 5 to 9 PM, I don't think you all are suggesting that though. I guess my point is I have found nothing to give her that's going to keep her occupied for more than 5 minutes without interaction from us. 

I would love to be able to give her a toy and tell her to lay down and play with it, but I also know my dog and she's just not there. 

And let me be very clear...I'm not blaming this on my dog. I'm saying I've clearly done something wrong, I just have to figure out how to make her entertain herself. She doesn't know how to entertain herself at all right now, and that's where I think my biggest problem is. I have no idea what to do there...


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## valreegrl

Definitely check with a Vet, as she is 8 months old she is prime for Pano. 

As for the crate time, you day schedule is great  Evenings just need a little tweaking. You can start off by tethering her to you when you are home. That way you can work on 'leave it' if she tries to pick something up. And when you are just trying to relax the only option she has is to either sit or lay next to you. 
Once you feel that she has mastered those techniques start giving her a bit more freedom. Gate only one room, then add another and so on. 
I wouldn't leave her out at night until you are sure she won't get into anything. I would rather have a crated dog than a dead one. 
Every dog is different, so just because someone has their 5 month old out at night does not mean it is right for you. My 6 month old female is still crated at night and should be. 
It sounds like you are doing a good job and just needed a little guidance, the reason why are you here.....we all are.


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## Emoore

Put some plain yogurt in the Kong and freeze it overnight. Depending on the Kong size it will take at least 30 minutes to get all the yogurt out.


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## valreegrl

Emoore said:


> Something to think about: This Bible study is happening at _your_ home. If you can be gracious enough to allow people to bring their two year olds and let them run around and do whatever it is two-year olds do while you're trying to have Bible study (because I'm sure they're not silent and attentive through the whole thing), the other adults can darn sure be gracious enough to deal with your dog, who is probably better-behaved than a lot of toddlers. They (the adults) don't like dogs? Tough. Maybe you don't like their kids.
> 
> That said, the kids and the dog do need to be protected from each other. She should be on-leash or kept separate from the little kids.
> 
> 
> Big kudos to you for being teachable and willing to change things for the welfare of your dog, by the way.


Not sure if I agree with this in your instance.
If you are worried about your dog and children then you SHOULD crate your dog. Socialization with children should be done slowly and correctly. Until you have a rock solid temperament around children I would be cautious utilizing others for practice.


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## geissap

Emoore said:


> Something to think about: This Bible study is happening at _your_ home. If you can be gracious enough to allow people to bring their two year olds and let them run around and do whatever it is two-year olds do while you're trying to have Bible study (because I'm sure they're not silent and attentive through the whole thing), the other adults can darn sure be gracious enough to deal with your dog, who is probably better-behaved than a lot of toddlers. They (the adults) don't like dogs? Tough. Maybe you don't like their kids.
> 
> That said, the kids and the dog do need to be protected from each other. She should be on-leash or kept separate from the little kids.
> 
> 
> Big kudos to you for being teachable and willing to change things for the welfare of your dog, by the way.


Allow me to clarify slightly. I think you got most of it though. You're absolutely right for the most part, kids are distractions also. I wasn't gonna get quite this down into the weeds but here's really how it works. Our bible study starts at around 7. It usually takes about 30-45 minutes for everyone to wind down, and then we actually do about 30 minutes of worship...we sing and stuff. During all that time the kids are around. Then at around 8:30ish we dive into the Bible and someone babysits the kids upstairs in another room away from the Bible study.

Which makes it difficult...where in there would be appropriate to have Jada out and about. Can't really have her out during meet and greet and worship because the kids are around running around. I would love to have her out during bible study, but telling her, "Off!" "No!" "Down" every 60 seconds over someone reading or discussing something is really not fair to anyone. I think it may be time to give up the Bible study. However, at the same time something's telling me that this is such a ripe environment for learning. I'm just not sure how to facilitate it without disrupting the entire thing though...I could tell them tough too bad? 

Just not sure what to do in this specific situation?


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## LaRen616

It took my dog a little over 20 min's to get his kibble out of his Tug-A-Jug and he is an adult. 

It will take your pup a little longer, hopefully.


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## PaddyD

My dog had pano from 4 - 8 months. But to get on topic>>>>>>>
I am wondering why you got a dog if it is just to observe from afar and take out at your convenience. At 8 months your dog should be well-behaved though high energy. That is what a GSD is. We get up at 4:30 in order that our dog will get time, attention and exercise. I have a 1 hour commute each way and I am gone from the house from 6 - 4:30.
A dog walker comes for a half hour at 11:30. At 4:30 I come home and take her for an hour of walk/jog/play. She is free in the house the rest of the day and night until 4:30 a.m. We have been doing this since 5 months of age. By the way, she has never asked to go out. She just holds it until we bring her out, which we do 5 or more times a day.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

If I'm understanding correctly, the Bible study occurs one night out of the week, correct?

If so, I see no reason why your pup can't be crated during that time. It sounds like she's content to be in her crate so there's no reason she shouldn't be able to stay in her crate for the majority of the Bible study. Perhaps on that day she can get a longer walk in the morning or just before the Bible study begins.

BTW, I agree with the frozen Kong idea, although my GSD female can get anything out of there (frozen or unfrozen) in 10 minutes flat.


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## geissap

valreegrl said:


> Not sure if I agree with this in your instance.
> If you are worried about your dog and children then you SHOULD crate your dog. Socialization with children should be done slowly and correctly. Until you have a rock solid temperament around children I would be cautious utilizing others for practice.


I appreciate you sharing a different opinion here. I'm not actually worried about her biting or showing aggression, but she's just a big baby she doens't understand how big she is at all. Jada thinks she's about 10 lbs. I have no doubt she would wiggle her little butt and send a kid flying into a coffee table, so I definitely won't be diving into this to quickly, but I can start letting her out more when kids aren't around.


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## GSDGunner

valreegrl said:


> Definitely check with a Vet, as she is 8 months old she is prime for Pano.


That was the first thing that I thought as well. A vet check is definitely in order. Let us know what the vet says.

As for the evenings, I too had a pup that wanted attention ALL THE TIME. and believe me, a chew toy didn't settle him down at all.
He was gated within the family room and kitchen area, which is where we were at night. It drove me batty sometimes that all he wanted to do was play play play. I got him some marrow bones, froze them and he wittled away at it for hours. Ahhh, peace and quiet. 
Thing is, once she starts getting used to being around the family in the evening, she'll settle in more. Right now it's an adventure being out of her crate and it's go go go. Kinda like "enjoy it while I can" type of thing.
After awhile of freedom, she'll settle. Don't get me wrong, she'll still want to play, but she'll get there.

If she gets some good strenuous exercise (after the paw problem is addressed of course) she'll likely just want to rest with the family. She might be amped up at first, but trust me, a tired puppy is a happy puppy.
As she matures, she'll also calm down a bit. We all know puppyhood is crazy time.

And Gunner was a huge jumper, and it's not as hard to combat as you think. If you'd like advice on this, please ask and I'm sure some fine advice will come your way.


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## Emoore

You could also look into an exercise pen like this one: 

















You could put her in it and give her her dinner in a Tug-A-Jug or Treat Stick (google those). You'd need to teach her not to jump on the sides of the pen, but she would be moving around and engaging her brain to get her dinner out of the toy, but still in her pen and not bothering anyone.


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## Rerun

This is one of those situatiosn where it's going to get worse before it gets better. She's been crated so much that she hasn't learned how to interact in a home properly. You'll have to spend the first couple of weeks treating her like an overgrown puppy (which she is) because she will be very hyper, very distracted, and very needy and wanting you to interact with her, because up until now, everytime she's out of the crate you've been interacting with her.

Get her out, tether her to you, and exercise her like crazy (running, biking, ball throwing in the backyard, etc). Then bring her inside.


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## geissap

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> If I'm understanding correctly, the Bible study occurs one night out of the week, correct?
> 
> If so, I see no reason why your pup can't be crated during that time. It sounds like she's content to be in her crate so there's no reason she shouldn't be able to stay in her crate for the majority of the Bible study. Perhaps on that day she can get a longer walk in the morning or just before the Bible study begins.
> 
> BTW, I agree with the frozen Kong idea, although my GSD female can get anything out of there (frozen or unfrozen) in 10 minutes flat.


It's actually once every other week haha. And that's thing I'd argue that my dog loves her crate. If I say "crate" she goes to it and lays down typically, not of course that's not a 100% but I'd say 80% of the time she does. She's been rewarded for every time she goes, so she knows crate = treat. She also doesn't leave the crate until she's freed. We open the door and she sits there and waits until I say "free." I think this is the main thing that has messed me up. I just assumed that our crate time must be right because she is happy in there. She never cries in her crate. The only time she ever cries is when she has to go poop, and that's very rare. Maybe once a week I hear her cry in her crate and if she ever does that I immediately go get her and let her out.

I love the Kong idea, the frustrating part is, I've heard of that idea. Why I don't do it I have no idea...I guess I'm just an idiot. I need to develop some routine. I never have the thing frozen when I need it to be frozen. Just gotta work out a freezing schedule. I was actually freezing canned food...but I love yogurt idea too. I only have one kong and it may be time to invest in a couple more so that I can always have like 3 freezing. 

For some reason I've always fed her and given her all her treats in her crate. I read so much about getting dogs to like there crate, "do this and do that" I honestly think I went way overboard with it. I never giver her things like frozen kongs, ice cubes or things that take her a long time out of her crate. She only ever gets normal toys and normal pea sized treats outside of her crate. I just gotta switch up my routine clearly...


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## GSDGunner

Bully sticks keep them occupied too. The first few times though, Gunner got some horrific farts from them. 
But it was worth it to keep him occupied.


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## geissap

Rerun said:


> This is one of those situatiosn where it's going to get worse before it gets better. She's been crated so much that she hasn't learned how to interact in a home properly. You'll have to spend the first couple of weeks treating her like an overgrown puppy (which she is) because she will be very hyper, very distracted, and very needy and wanting you to interact with her, because up until now, everytime she's out of the crate you've been interacting with her.
> 
> Get her out, tether her to you, and exercise her like crazy (running, biking, ball throwing in the backyard, etc). Then bring her inside.


Haha...this makes alot of sense and it explains her perfectly. We are interacting with her nonstop when she's out of the crate. Which we though is what we're supposed to do, and I thought when we can't interact with her she should be crated. I'm discovering now that, that's not necessarily true. We need to let her interact with herself out of the crate.

@Emoore - I just see that pen and laugh, I don't mean that to be rude, but I'm just saying it to say there's no way. I wouldn't even know where to begin training her to stay in something like that. We actually have a pen very similiar to that. Anytime we put her in it...she jumps up on it and pushes it right over. I have no idea how to train her not to do that?


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## geissap

What is pano? What is the real name for it...i can't find anything on it?

Scratch this...I found it. Ugg sounds awful...however I can tell you she's in no pain from what I can tell. She's never whimpered or anything. In fact I've touched her paw and squeezed it and everything all up and down her leg and she doesn't let on like anything is wrong. I can just tell she walks funny sometimes. Not sure if that changes anything, but just sharing my observations...


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## GSDGunner

geissap said:


> What is pano? What is the real name for it...i can't find anything on it?


Here ya go.

Panosteitis in Young Dogs


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## Emoore

geissap said:


> What is pano? What is the real name for it...i can't find anything on it?


Panosteitis


About the pen-- yes, she needs to be taught to respect it as a barrier, which isn't something I can teach you over the internet.


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## geissap

GSDGunner said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> Panosteitis in Young Dogs


An unpreventable and untreatable disease...fantastic! :wild: 

So here's my thing with this...is this really worth taking her to the vet for. They're gonna rack up 400 bucks in x-rays and stuff to tell me she has a untreatable disease? Kinda seems like a waste? She's not in pain...this is more of a question then a comment? Or am I missing something here?


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## Emoore

geissap said:


> An unpreventable and untreatable disease...fantastic! :wild:


It also has no log-term impact on the dog. Basically it's growing pains just like human teens get.


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## Kris10

geissap said:


> An unpreventable and untreatable disease...fantastic! :wild:


Well the good news is it usually doesn't last long and they outgrow it. The bad news is you should probably take him to the vet to rule out anything more serious.


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## Zoeys mom

Pano can't be treated but unless you know it's Pano it's worth a look. For instance my Zoe has been really itchy and has scratched a huge bald spot in her side...could have been mange or nothing, but today and $300 later it's not mange it's allergies. However, if it were mange and went untreated it would have gotten really bad so it was worth it.

Look in between her paw pads- my lab had the tiniest thorn thing stuck in his once and I checked multiple times before I finally found it. He would run and play like normal and then every now and then kinda pick it up. I could squeeze and feel it without a wimper or sign of pain but I guess when he stood just the right way it poked him. I found it and plucked it out with tweezers,lol


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## GSDGunner

geissap said:


> An unpreventable and untreatable disease...fantastic! :wild:
> 
> So here's my thing with this...is this really worth taking her to the vet for. They're gonna rack up 400 bucks in x-rays and stuff to tell me she has a untreatable disease? Kinda seems like a waste? She's not in pain...this is more of a question then a comment? Or am I missing something here?


Nobody here confirmed it IS pano, so taking her to the vet is the right thing to do.
We are not vets, nor can we diagnose them. It was just a thought and not meant to scare you. But you must take her to the vet, that is not an option in my book.

Did you read the whole thing or stop at untreatable?
_This disease is self-limiting and after it runs its course, there are very few long-term side effects or need for further treatment. As mentioned earlier, the disease usually lasts for two to five months, but can last much longer. _


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## valreegrl

geissap said:


> An unpreventable and untreatable disease...fantastic! :wild:
> 
> So here's my thing with this...is this really worth taking her to the vet for. They're gonna rack up 400 bucks in x-rays and stuff to tell me she has a untreatable disease? Kinda seems like a waste? She's not in pain...this is more of a question then a comment? Or am I missing something here?


It is very common in large breed dogs and "untreatable" means there isn't a cure, not a life sentence. They simply outgrow it. Some dogs require pain meds through this period, but in my experience simple crate rest and limited exercise works. 

Frozen Kongs....I usually have more than one. They start off all frozen (you can also freeze peanut butter, mashed potatoes, baby food) then I take one out and give to the dog. When it's finished I repack it and freeze but have at least one other ready to go.


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## CPH

I can definitely relate to a busy working schedule as we both work full time as well so I will try to give you some advice from my personal experience. (my pup is now 10 months)

We also leave our dog alone all day while at work about 7:30am-4pm but he is not in a crate he is in a 5'X15' dog run outside (in cold temps he is inside and one day a week he is at doggie daycare) Perhaps there is a room in the house where you could put up a baby gate and she could stay there allowing her some more room to move around and play. Also, maybe look into a doggie daycare once or twice a week that you could put her in to get some energy out. We put our guy in at least once a week and sometimes on days where we know we will be out at night so he has a chance to get a lot of exercise that day. Daycare is obviously also a really great way to socialize her with other dogs.

As far as keeping her in the crate at night and when you are home I do agree with some of the other posters that this is a bit excessive. I don't think that any puppy ever naturally entertains them self or doesn't get into things but if she is never given the opportunity to learn how to do these things she wont know. Yes she will try to chew the carpet where you then discipline and then she will learn not to to this. Same with learning how to act when a lot of people come over and how to be disciplined and stay where she is told to stay when you don't want her bothering people during your bible sessions. We have a bed at the far end of the kitchen where our guy has to stay while we eat, maybe try putting a bed in the room with you during your sessions and train her to stay there until released. It will be a pain at first, every time she gets up say no and put her back. Over and over and over and she will slowly learn to stay there because when she gets up she doens't get away with it. If you don't train all of these things now she will never be able be around during these times as she doesn't know how to act. 

In terms of the kids issue. Our guy is 10 months and 76 pounds and we also don't have kids and yes i too worry that he will accidentally knock a child over. But they have to learn or they will NEVER know how to act will never be able to be around kids. Keep a very close eye and like someone else said perhaps keep her leashed if she gets to rough, correct, if she gets to hyper, correct.It wont take very long for her to learn proper behavior around children. Our pup had never been around kids until a few weeks ago and he first jumped up and was corrected and after that he played with the kids all night, they just loved throwing the ball for him and of course he loved that too!

Anyways i hope this helps and best of luck with your pup!


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## clearcreekranch

Emoore said:


> Put some plain yogurt in the Kong and freeze it overnight. Depending on the Kong size it will take at least 30 minutes to get all the yogurt out.


I fill a Kong with dog food and seal it with peanut butter and freeze it for my mixed breed dog and dog food and liverwurst for Wolf.


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## clearcreekranch

geissap said:


> It's actually once every other week haha. And that's thing I'd argue that my dog loves her crate. If I say "crate" she goes to it and lays down typically, not of course that's not a 100% but I'd say 80% of the time she does. She's been rewarded for every time she goes, so she knows crate = treat. She also doesn't leave the crate until she's freed. We open the door and she sits there and waits until I say "free." I think this is the main thing that has messed me up. I just assumed that our crate time must be right because she is happy in there. She never cries in her crate. The only time she ever cries is when she has to go poop, and that's very rare. Maybe once a week I hear her cry in her crate and if she ever does that I immediately go get her and let her out.
> 
> I love the Kong idea, the frustrating part is, I've heard of that idea. Why I don't do it I have no idea...I guess I'm just an idiot. I need to develop some routine. I never have the thing frozen when I need it to be frozen. Just gotta work out a freezing schedule. I was actually freezing canned food...but I love yogurt idea too. I only have one kong and it may be time to invest in a couple more so that I can always have like 3 freezing.
> 
> For some reason I've always fed her and given her all her treats in her crate. I read so much about getting dogs to like there crate, "do this and do that" I honestly think I went way overboard with it. I never giver her things like frozen kongs, ice cubes or things that take her a long time out of her crate. She only ever gets normal toys and normal pea sized treats outside of her crate. I just gotta switch up my routine clearly...



Ok, so now I have to put in my 2 cents. Don't beat yourself up, we have all made mistakes and been guilty of not thinking of doing something a different way. These dogs can be a handful and I think that we can all agree with that. And we are all trying to do what is right or we would not be asking the questions. Wolf and my other dog are crated when I am not home and at bedtime. My decision. They live with 4 indoor cats and all heck would break loose in the middle of the night if the dogs had free run of the house. And no one sleeps in our bedroom. My theory is that since they both can't be in there, then neither of them can. And no cats, since we keep the door shut. Makes for a peaceful slumber of my husband and myself.


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## Pattycakes

Personally, I would take the dog to the vet to rule out anything major. If it is pano, your dog will eventually grow out of it. But if it isn't, I know I would want to know what is causing my dog to be lame on a foot/leg.


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## geissap

Zoeys mom said:


> Pano can't be treated but unless you know it's Pano it's worth a look. For instance my Zoe has been really itchy and has scratched a huge bald spot in her side...could have been mange or nothing, but today and $300 later it's not mange it's allergies. However, if it were mange and went untreated it would have gotten really bad so it was worth it.
> 
> Look in between her paw pads- my lab had the tiniest thorn thing stuck in his once and I checked multiple times before I finally found it. He would run and play like normal and then every now and then kinda pick it up. I could squeeze and feel it without a wimper or sign of pain but I guess when he stood just the right way it poked him. I found it and plucked it out with tweezers,lol


This sounds exactly like it. I'm gonna check again. Maybe I gotta bust out the magnifying glass. She doesn't exactly LOVE letting us touch her paws. She's pretty good with it, but it's not like she lays over and just lets us look haha...so I probably need to check again.

We have a friend that comes to the bible study that owns a adult GSD. He's gonna start bringing him over so the two can play in the backyard while we bible study. I think this is a good idea...Jada loves to play with other dogs.


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## UofIowaGSD

I'm a stay at home mom and I know you didn't want any advice from people that stay home but thought I would chime in anyway. I really think you should tether your dog to you at night. I do this at night, & trust me I'm exhausted mom of four kids with twins. After supper and this is the time my husband is getting home I take Charlie, my pup outside and excerise him in the yard with a flirtpole. Maybe I missed it but didn't see that mentioned. Google it, but I made mine out of a horse whip and one of those skineeze dog toys. I can walk Charlie around our block a couple of times and that doesn't wear him out but his flirtpole will. Then I do some training sessions. We built him a kennel (4x6) in our storage room so I put him in there while I put the kiddos to bed and then when we settle down for the night I tether him to me and he is much calmer. He ususally chews his bully stick while laying by us. I highly recommend bully sticks! My pup doesn't like the kong with peanut butter and he doesn't chew on any of his chew toys but he loves those bullys sticks. He is also tethered to me while I have people over. That way I can correct him for jumping and that puppy biting. Sometimes I don't want to mess with him while I have people over but how else is he going to learn? Maybe not for your bible study group but if you have other opportunities I would use them. I crate Charlie only when he eats and at night while we are sleeping. I know I stay at home so my situation is different but I highly recommend making a flirtpole and using that as a different form of exercise. I also use an exercise pen in my living room but you will definitely have to have patience to teach an 8 month old not to jump on it. Hope that helps.


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## geissap

UofIowaGSD said:


> I'm a stay at home mom and I know you didn't want any advice from people that stay home but thought I would chime in anyway. I really think you should tether your dog to you at night. I do this at night, & trust me I'm exhausted mom of four kids with twins. After supper and this is the time my husband is getting home I take Charlie, my pup outside and excerise him in the yard with a flirtpole. Maybe I missed it but didn't see that mentioned. Google it, but I made mine out of a horse whip and one of those skineeze dog toys. I can walk Charlie around our block a couple of times and that doesn't wear him out but his flirtpole will. Then I do some training sessions. We built him a kennel (4x6) in our storage room so I put him in there while I put the kiddos to bed and then when we settle down for the night I tether him to me and he is much calmer. He ususally chews his bully stick while laying by us. I highly recommend bully sticks! My pup doesn't like the kong with peanut butter and he doesn't chew on any of his chew toys but he loves those bullys sticks. He is also tethered to me while I have people over. That way I can correct him for jumping and that puppy biting. Sometimes I don't want to mess with him while I have people over but how else is he going to learn? Maybe not for your bible study group but if you have other opportunities I would use them. I crate Charlie only when he eats and at night while we are sleeping. I know I stay at home so my situation is different but I highly recommend making a flirtpole and using that as a different form of exercise. I also use an exercise pen in my living room but you will definitely have to have patience to teach an 8 month old not to jump on it. Hope that helps.


Nah I appreciate these suggestions. There's some great ones in there. I've looked into the Bully Sticks. They sound so disgusting lol...but we're gonna buy some. Where do you guys buy these though? Online? I've never seen them in stores?

Also I've heard of the flirt pole and I have no doubt that Jada would love it. She loves interactive toys. Anything that moves...I just haven't gotten around to making one. Which is another lame excuse...I just need to spend the time to MAKE IT! That's also going on my goal list for this week. Make a flirt pole! We also have talked about making a kennel outside for her...it's just a matter of making it happen also. I gotta be like Nike and "Just Do It!" (Sorry for that lame cliche...I couldn't resist though)


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## Sunstreaked

I'm amazed at how much mental stimulation tires these puppies out! 

We had a very busy Saturday, mostly revolving around Eva (6 months) and the dog food store, the vet to get her tag, the beach, a restaurant, and then a cancer benefit. 

Except for the beach, not much running, and she was tired for a good two days afterward! 

So, my suggestion is more mental stimulation. Clicker training, the flirt pole someone else suggested, new places (even for a short time), that type of thing.


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## Pattycakes

I used to take my dog to doggie day care. I can't tell you how much she enjoyed going and she would be exhausted...physically and mentally afterwards. I only took her there twice a week for about 5 months. It was a great experience for her.


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## CPH

I totally agree on doggie daycare, i really can't suggest it enough. When we pull up to daycare Capone starts running in circles on my backseat! lol


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## Rott-n-GSDs

I'm actually not a fan of doggie daycare... but then again I'm not a fan of dog park like settings, either. I have heard too many horror stories... and know that my "dangerous" breeds would be blamed for issues even if a "softer" breed started it. It just seems like too much uncontrolled chaos. I also have a very nervy GSD boy that would be a wreck if he had to go someplace every day. He positively THRIVES on routine, and that routine includes being crated or kenneled when mom & dad are gone. He is extremely high energy, but even with the hours in the crate he is content, provided we give him enough exercise (physical and mental) when we are home.

Plus... even though my hubby and I both work full time there's no way we'd be able to afford a doggie daycare.


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## Pattycakes

The doggie daycare I took Uschi too was at a private home and the owner had 3 dogs of her own and she would take in up to 6 more dogs of all sizes. The owner was also a dog trainer. The dogs were monitored the whole time. It was great.

I'm not a fan of dog parks though...seen too many dogs left to their own devices while their owners are sitting, listening to their ipods and reading.


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunstreaked said:


> I'm amazed at how much mental stimulation tires these puppies out! ...snip....
> 
> So, my suggestion is more mental stimulation. Clicker training, the flirt pole someone else suggested, new places (even for a short time), that type of thing.


:thumbup: I agree. If you can take 10-15 minutes a night and substitute mental games for some of her physical exercise you'll probably start to see a difference in her behavior.


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## geissap

**UPDATE**

So here's where were at today...since this post caused a firestorm I figured I'd update you all so you're not all continuing to call CPS! 

Shopping - Went to Wal-Mart and Petsmart. I bought two more Kong like contraptions. I actually like the rip-off brand they sell at Wal-Mart better so I got two of those. Also got some non-fat yogurts, baby food, some canned food. And I bought a tug and jug as many of you recommended. tonight I build my flirt pole! Oh btw she totally doesn't get the tug n' jug. She just looks at me like...seriously can't you just put the food in a bowl? She refuses to get it out...I shook and showed her how there's food in there and it comes out but she was totally uninterested in getting it out herself.

Day 1 - I got home about 4:45 and let Jada out. She went outside and played for about 45 minutes then she came in. We trained for a bit and she just kinda roamed around. I fed her OUTSIDE of her crate at around 6:00 and she was so confused haha! She kept going into her crate and I'd call her back out and point to her bowl, she'd run back to her crate, and I would be like "No you don't have to eat in there" I'd call her back out and so we compromised. She would grab a mouth full of food and take it back to her crate, then come back out and get some more. It was cute...she just didn't understand the freedom. 

Anyway around 7 o' clock bible study happened. I had an atendee bring over there 110 lb. beast of a GSD and they played outside for the full 1 1/2 hours. Jada was EXHAUSTED by the time I let her back in but she still had more. Everyone left and I let her settle down with her newly frozen kong. She worked on that for a good long while but again she wanted to take the Kong to her crate. We let her take it we just didn't shut the door so she kinda came out and went when she pleased. By this time it was bed time, we tethered her and she settled down pretty quick and fell asleep. Then about 1 AM she woke up and started causing havoc so I did crate her for the remainder of the night. I don't think she's quite ready for workday night tethering. However, we're gonna work with her on the weekends. It's just to much for us to handle...I can't settle her back down every hour while trying to sleep for work

All in all yesterday went a very similiar way. She's a handful, as she wants to chew everything and anything but it's going ALOT better than expected...tonight I'll construct the flirt pole. I have no doubt she's gonna like that.


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## Mrs.K

GREAT JOB! 

Give her time, she'll adjust to her new freedom


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## GSDGunner

Mrs.K said:


> GREAT JOB!
> 
> Give her time, she'll adjust to her new freedom


:thumbup:

Yep, given time she'll realize she doesn't _have_ to go to her crate.
And she may just not be ready for sleep time outside the crate yet. Gunner was over a year old before he earned that freedom.
As for new toys and such, give that time too. I've gotten things for Gunner that he didn't touch at first. Then next thing you know he's going to town with it. 
Best to rotate what toys she has so she doesn't get bored with them. Gunner has two toys that are always out but the rest are rotated. Then when I take one out he hasn't seen in a while, it's like a whole new experience.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Great job!! (Don't worry folks, we have pm'd and we are good)


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## GSDGunner

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Great job!! (Don't worry folks, we have pm'd and we are good)


I love when people can be adults and work out their issues. Good to hear.


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## Bomber

Mine is 7 mo old and always wants to play at sleep time. he hasnt been in his crate since he was 5 months at all. When hes creating a fuss at bed time I ignore him. I lay down and he'll come running up and do his whimpering "I wanna play" stuff. But it last for 1-2 minutes and then he lays down and lets out a big grunt/sigh like a little kid not getting his way.... and then goes to sleep. 

Ive left him out during the day since he was 5 mo old. He got in a few things but not too much. I previously had a great dane, so my house is fortified dog proof. I got a radio and play the oldies all day for him while im gone.... surprisingly this ended pretty much all chewing on anything.. He must love to rock and roll.


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## Mrs.K

GSDGunner said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Yep, given time she'll realize she doesn't _have_ to go to her crate.
> And she may just not be ready for sleep time outside the crate yet. Gunner was over a year old before he earned that freedom.
> As for new toys and such, give that time too. I've gotten things for Gunner that he didn't touch at first. Then next thing you know he's going to town with it.
> Best to rotate what toys she has so she doesn't get bored with them. Gunner has two toys that are always out but the rest are rotated. Then when I take one out he hasn't seen in a while, it's like a whole new experience.


Whenever the door to the "dog room" is open, Indra actually goes into the crate she flew to the US with, whenever she wants to be alone and mine are pretty much never crated at all.


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## GSDGunner

After Gunner was given his "freedom" he never went back in the crate.
His choice. He never had a problem going in the crate and I never heard a peep out of him when he was in there. But once he was no longer required to go in there, he didn't.

After about a month of non use on his part, we disassembled it and put it in the garage.
I've never regretted it either. He has never once gotten into anything, destroyed or chewed anything. It's almost like he appreciated the freedom and didn't want to do anything to ruin it.


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