# Breeding an untitled GSD



## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

I have my own opinion on this but I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Would it be ok to breed your dog (or bitch) to an untitled GSD or breed your untitled animal?

Say you are a Schutzhund person and have a fantastic male with all the right stuff. He's now a SchH 2 and you want to breed him to a frineds untitled female who also has phenomenal drives but the friend just doesn't train her. Ok? How about the male being untitled and the female being titled?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm gonna get smashed for this.......aranoid:
YES....I would.
I don't believe that a "title" makes a good dog......I believe that a good dog can make the "title"....whether they actually do or not.
...jmo...


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

First I am not a breeder. I am a buyer. So here's a buyer's opinion. 

It's a personal decision and one that I think that requires some reflection. What are the goals for the breeding? To make money you're going to do much better with titled parents (if you can even do it then). If you really like both dogs (objectively- not just "because you love Max who is super with people and Minnie has a uterus and loves kids...and they might produce black puppies wouldn't that be cool?") and are breeding primarily for yourself, well I know several people in sport that will get together, breed a single litter, and retain pups as possibilities for their next competition dogs. As a buyer I would want to know WHY you did it.

I am more comfortable with an untitled female than I am an untitled male. I understand that there are limited years/times for breeding a female whereas males are much more open-ended. As a buyer I would want to see the female work. If the male was untitled that would bother me more. I would expect you to take your bitch to the best male in your geographical region. It's kind of lazy to just pick the male that your friend has but hasn't bothered training. I would want the untitled parent to be Xrayed and clear of health issues. 

As a buyer I would not buy your pup out of untitled parents if I couldn't see it and the parents for myself. I would most likely be willing to buy that pup if both dogs were working in my or a nearby SchH club and I liked what I saw on a regular basis. So as a breeder, I would expect your market to be considerably more local in nature for those puppies. Are there enough people locally to tap to get a puppy?? If not your drivey SchH type pups will probably go to more uninformed pet type homes that backyard breeders will typically sell to. I'm sure you can see where that might end up ore difficult for you. People who are into SchH, research kennels and breeders, are not going to buy your pup when they can go to a well regarded kennel. 

Also as a buyer of SchH puppies, I would expect your puppies to cost less than what is being charged at the more major kennels. If I'm going to pay $1500 why wouldn't I go to a kennel that has proving it's puppy producing skills?

Now with that said...would I buy a puppy out of untitled parents?? Yes I would. If it was what I wanted, at the price I wanted, at the time I wanted. I have. And I was perfectly happy with the decision. 

From another prospective. My dog Ike has every title. SchH3 FH OFA Good. Super temperament. Before we got him he was a stud dog (could still be a stud dog) and had a good record for his progeny. No one is beating down my door to breed. Largely because the bitches in the area either go to males that they live with, or travel to BIG name competition dogs. I imagine that is similar everywhere. I don't have a bitch in my house that I would breed him to. I like him a lot and will probably store him for later on down the road just in case I do get a bitch I like. Would I as a stud owner breed him to an untitled female? Yes. I would. A bitch with good health and sound temperament (as judged by me). 

I'm pretty sure if we only bred SchH3 to SchH3 with OFA excellent we'd have a pretty small gene pool.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Expressed very nicely!! I agree!
Robin


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I agree with JKLatsky. I grew up on a ranch with hard working but untitled cattle dogs. Those dogs' working ability was amazing and a lot of them weren't purebred. I would buy a dog out of untitled parent(s) but I would need some sort of proof of the dogs' temperament and nerve. I'd also expect the pups to cost less than one out of titled parents.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

_'I don't believe that a "title" makes a good dog......I believe that a good dog can make the "title"....whether they actually do or not.'_

Also well stated. All of my dogs come from titled parents but none of mine are titled because it's not something I choose to do. Could they be titled? Absolutely. Are there bad dogs titled, you bet. There is much more to breeding then titles.

In the confirmation world dogs are 'specialed' (dogs that have their championships) in an attempt to get ranked. For instance the number 2 gsd, or the number 1 working dog, etc. These 'rankings' are only based on dogs that are actually shown and on the current circut. There could be better dogs at home with owners.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I think it would be fine to breed one untitled dog to one that is titled. I wouldnt want to breed two untitled dogs. You just havent proven that they both have good temperaments. Both should at the minimum have OFA or PENN hip/elbows, CERF'd eyes. There is more health testing that can be done, but that would be icing on the cake. I would also have to look at bloodlines of the untitled dog and what kennel it came from. Why is the dog not titled (i.e. injury, poor training/trainer)?? If the dog has everything it takes to earn a title, and that can be demonstrated, I would breed it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If I were a breeder my only concern would be about buyers. If I am going to bring pups to this world, I want the best owners for them, and the good buyers will like to see some proof of the worthiness of the parents beyond my word. There are a few really good breeders out there and in this same forum that if they say a dog is good, I would take their word as gold. But from me, as an hypotetical breeder and for the vast majority of breeders, it doesn't work that easy. So if you have a bitch of the same quality than the untitled one and a titled one, it would be safer for the possibel pups to be born from a titled parent.

Some times it is just easier. Lets say Minnie has no titles, but is the daughter of Mickey, which is a great dog and maybe known from bringing good things to the table (and don't forget the maternal sire effect) with also many other good dogs back in her pedigree. Then only one dog without titles on an outstanding pedigree won't make that much harm, specially if that pedigree is not easy to find where you are and Minnie could be your only choice to get some dogs you really like into your lines.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would breed to an untitled dog if I liked the dog and trusted the dog's owner's evaluation of dogs in general. If the owner does not have the first idea what it takes to get a dog titled, how would he know whether the dog had what it takes. Another person, who has numerous titles, champions, etc, will be in a better position to say that this dog has what it takes.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, I would consider it. But only if I knew the dog, knew the trainer/handler, and was able to discern myself rather than take someone's word for it that the dog had the appropriate temperament and could title, and any lack of title was for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with the dog. 

I agree, the title doesn't make the dog, and certainly having letters before or after the registered name has no effect on genetics. But it seems more often than not when people are breeding untitled dogs, the reasons for doing so aren't valid reasons, but more excuses. Yet they assure everyone that the dog could title easily if not for this or that reason. 

The even bigger problem is that very frequently the people making these claims have no basis of knowledge and experience for doing so. I see pet owners who have never put more than a CGC on a dog, if that, say "oh yeah, my dog could do that easily" but not only has the dog never been tested the owner has never done this before so has no real clue what all goes into it or what it requires in a dog. And people who may be experienced in one venue, say they've put some agility or obedience titles on a dog or a tracking title on a dog, assure everyone that of course their dog could make SchH3 or go get an HGH if they just put the time into it. 

There are people out there with the depth of knowledge and experience in dogs that they could work the dog a few times, or watch someone else work it, and make that determination and I would trust their assessment of the dog. They understand dogs and know what it takes in terms of temperament to be able to accomplish certain things, because they've done it. That comes from years of working with dogs, not from sitting around and watching dogs work or reading about it or watching videos about it. Oftentimes the dogs that are untitled have still been worked quite a bit as well, so have been somewhat tested and proven by people who know what they are looking at. But such people are rare treasures within the breed. 

So to me it really comes down to who is making the claim: a person who completely knows what he's talking about, who has spent time with the dog and worked the dog somewhat, or someone who has never done it making the claim with a dog who's never done it. The people out there with enough unbiased understanding of dogs for their opinion on whether a dog could title or not has merit are vastly outnumbered by the people who claim such things but can't back up those claims with sufficient experience to make them worth listening to.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> I agree, the title doesn't make the dog, and certainly having letters before or after the registered name has no effect on genetics. But it seems more often than not when people are breeding untitled dogs, the reasons for doing so aren't valid reasons, but more excuses. Yet they assure everyone that the dog could title easily if not for this or that reason.
> 
> The even bigger problem is that very frequently the people making these claims have no basis of knowledge and experience for doing so. I see pet owners who have never put more than a CGC on a dog, if that, say "oh yeah, my dog could do that easily" but not only has the dog never been tested the owner has never done this before so has no real clue what all goes into it or what it requires in a dog. And people who may be experienced in one venue, say they've put some agility or obedience titles on a dog or a tracking title on a dog, assure everyone that of course their dog could make SchH3 or go get an HGH if they just put the time into it.


I completely agree with this. Titles are not everything BUT, hey, I rather see something than nothing.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

What about this situation? Two sister bitches. One gets worked and shows great drives and aptitude for the work, and is almost ready for her Schutzhund I. The other has better conformation and in my opinion is a better looking dog, but due to the owner's job he is unable to train her (on-call homicide detective; he and his wife are excellent pet dog owners). 

Would you breed the detective's dog if he let you choose the stud? Same sire and dam, both are OFA good hips, OFA elbows normal.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hunther's Dad said:


> What about this situation? Two sister bitches. One gets worked and shows great drives and aptitude for the work, and is almost ready for her Schutzhund I. The other has better conformation and in my opinion is a better looking dog, but due to the owner's job he is unable to train her (on-call homicide detective; he and his wife are excellent pet dog owners).
> 
> Would you breed the detective's dog if he let you choose the stud? Same sire and dam, both are OFA good hips, OFA elbows normal.


To me there is nothing in that scenario that would even remotely make me consider thinking the dog should be great? Good confirmation and better looking? Pfft. Means little.

Two littermates does not make the same personality, tempeament, and working ability.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

But equal potential to get the title. If it were looks alone, no, I would not breed them. But I raised both from puppies, observed them in the litter box, etc. The detective's dog showed higher drives and aptitude, but for the wrong reason, I sold her and kept the one I'm working. 

(To be fair, I should have mentioned that in my first post.)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What about the genes of both dogs which is what they will pass?? What's the difference in the two dogs???


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> What about the genes of both dogs which is what they will pass?? What's the difference in the two dogs???


Yes, but would you say every dog from every "good" litter is of breeding quality? 

From a purely genetics standpoint--every creature on earth has it's own genetic makeup with the exception of identical twins. Genetics among siblings can still vary greatly in relation to specific traits. Even give the nature vs. nurture argument every sibling will still have their own health and personalities that could negatively (or positively) be passed on to their offspring.

I don't think that within a litter or full sibling of any species being bred by humans (including humans lol) should be bred because one "is prettier" than the other.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GSDElsa,
Your point is well taken about the differences in genetic mapping, so what would make the first female in the OP's example a better producer than the sister....in a breeding?????What's different in the first female that will impact the puppies than the pretty second female???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hunther's Dad said:


> What about this situation? Two sister bitches. One gets worked and shows great drives and aptitude for the work, and is almost ready for her Schutzhund I. The other has better conformation and in my opinion is a better looking dog, but due to the owner's job he is unable to train her (on-call homicide detective; he and his wife are excellent pet dog owners).
> 
> Would you breed the detective's dog if he let you choose the stud? Same sire and dam, both are OFA good hips, OFA elbows normal.


I think that at some point in your journey as a breeder, you will be able to put that kind of faith in your dogs. Full sisters, we had at a show today in Cleveland. They are sixteen months old. They are different in conformation. One stayed with me, the other went to her new home at eight weeks old. Both scored 93 out of 100 in Rally in spite of different environments, owners, trainers, personalities, temperament tests etc. That is what you can call a coincidence. 

However, when you send that dog off to its new home, you really have no control over it, really. Ok if you co-own it and have the breeding rights, or have it limited and will change it to full. 

But a breeder should be able to consider the pedigree, not the siblings, and the dog, and the environment, and make that determination. 

And the breeder at that point, when they feel that much confidence in their breeding program, and their young dogs, they should be able to do it without the approval of a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks who say, "I am not a breeder, but..." 

If the police detective and his wife want to have a litter with their bitch, and they have full registration, and you are wondering yay or nay, the chances are huge that if you say nay, they will find a police officer buddy with a dog who will happily let them breed to. Papers, maybe; pedigree considered, maybe; lines compatible, maybe. So even with a limited registration (that you can change), it may make sense for you to evaluate their dog, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and having some control over what stud is used, you can make a good breeding decision for the bitch and help them to find the right homes for the pups. You can require health screenings. And will probably prevent them from making some pretty bad moves with the bitch.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> GSDElsa,
> Your point is well taken about the differences in genetic mapping, so what would make the first female in the OP's example a better producer than the sister....in a breeding?????What's different in the first female that will impact the puppies than the pretty second female???


Well, I guess you don't know in the first example he gave. He gave no indication about her health, her temperament, her working ability...nothing other than sister B was prettier.

Obviously if they are both great dogs from the breed standard point of view all around then yes. But it doesn't seem like one sibling should be bred over another soley for the looks. Would you not agree with this?

The poster did expand on what he meant at a later post a litter further.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes, we now have additional information....so does that information support the supposition of NOT breeding her, or does it enhance the possibility???? 
My thought pattern on the first post was; BOTH females have good H & E. Okay, the first female appears to have the aptitude (based on some of the people here that think titles are absolute necessity for breedworthiness) needed to be breedworthy as well as the working ability. The only different information I have on the second female is she may have better conformation. Gentically, they are from the same dogs!
No mention of any issues of concern in temperament or working ability in the second female. Genetically, they are from same dogs!
Therefore, in my thinking based on the above information, the probabilty is that the temperament and drives are good, the structure I know is good, the hips and elbows are good, genetics are same....then I don't have a reason to dismiss this second female if the first is worthy. 
This could be faulty reasoning, and I may be lucky that the additional information tends to support this....but anyway that's my way of looking at the initial question.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would not throw out the second, nor would I affirm the second just on what a sibling is able to do. 

Babs and Jenna are siblings, littermates, they are so different. 
Heidi, Whitney, and Tori are littermates, they are not all equally worthy.
Milla and Ninja are littermates, and for different reasons, I do not intend to breed them.

Even littermates, raised with the same owner can be night and day different. 

I think that the breeder needs to evaluate the dog he bred. If he cannot evaluate his dogs without an impartial judge, then he should make his decision not to breed to this bitch unless the owners title it. 

If he thinks the owners will go ahead and do it anyway with or without his choice in stud dogs, and possibly the owners might neglect to do those things the breeder could suggest, and will not accept help or advice in raising the litter and homing the puppies, then I don't know, maybe although things are not 100% known, the breeder could minimize the damage by helping rather than not.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Yes, we now have additional information....so does that information support the supposition of NOT breeding her, or does it enhance the possibility????
> My thought pattern on the first post was; BOTH females have good H & E. Okay, the first female appears to have the aptitude (based on some of the people here that think titles are absolute necessity for breedworthiness) needed to be breedworthy as well as the working ability. The only different information I have on the second female is she may have better conformation. Gentically, they are from the same dogs!
> No mention of any issues of concern in temperament or working ability in the second female. Genetically, they are from same dogs!
> Therefore, in my thinking based on the above information, the probabilty is that the temperament and drives are good, the structure I know is good, the hips and elbows are good, genetics are same....then I don't have a reason to dismiss this second female if the first is worthy.
> This could be faulty reasoning, and I may be lucky that the additional information tends to support this....but anyway that's my way of looking at the initial question.


I agree with added information one would could begin to assume that sister B is equal to sister A in the prospect of being a brood bitch. 

Perhaps I am a pessimist in my thinking and do not feel the absence of bad information about the dog means good things. As we say at work...the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

To me...I saw in my frist post many variables without the info. Sister B could be dsyplasic. Sister B could be fearful. Sister B could be a nerve basket. Sister B be hysplastic. Sister B could have EPI. Any number of things.

Yes, their genetic background is identical. But genetically they are not created equal. 

Don't you want to breed the genetic history, but first and foremost breed for theindividual dog?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

But the first post clearly stated that sister B WASN'T dysplastic. I saw nothing that would lead me to believe nervebag or bad temperament. I did see something about the genetics of this B sister(same as sister A), that would incline me to believe she WASN'T a nerve bag. I am neither an optimist nor pessimist, I just try to make my suppositions be based on the available evidence as opposed to nonexistant evidence. Not saying I'm right...just me.
I also place a higher value on the dog's genotype than their phenotype. The last three dogs I acquired, I have not seen ANY of the parents. All three dogs are "pretty" good representations of the breed. I realize that everybody doesn't study bloodlines like I do; but that doesn't change whether you can make sound breeding decisions on genotype. 
Why do you think that a dog like Triumph's Guicci, a very nice West German showline dog that went VA in conformation in some countries, AND performed very well at the World Championships in Sch, has never produced a dog that has gone to that level of performance. And he had a lot of breedings especially from those that wanted to have showline blood and great performance. Its because he didn't produce what he was,(world Sch competitor), but rather he produced what he was made up of.....nice showline dog! Now the people who bred to him to replicate World Sch competition progeny because he was one....well it didn't happen.
I'm not saying that viewing phenotype is not useful, but I don't think it is as important as genotype in breeding. Others see this differently, and have examples to support their position....so maybe everyone is right:smirk:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Interesting discussion!

It appears that most responders are equating a title with a Sch title (or something similar). What about requiring a dog to be bred have BOTH a working title and a conformation title (or maybe at least some major points?). Isn't the dogs conformation as defined in the GSD standard as important as a demonstration of working ability?

Or what if the dog has passed some of the requirements for a working title (like having won major points in the breed ring)?

And to throw another wrench into the decision - what about the pedigree of the dog? How important is that compared to the individual dog? Some dogs are not that great themselves in either conformation and working but can produce dogs that are better than they are themselves?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Genotype is pedigree.......Codmaster in principle nothing is wrong with your premise.....the three dogs that I just mentioned I owned, all six parents have titles, and 5 out of the 6 parents have a conformation rating of Excellent. The sixth is rated very good in conformation out of an excellent sire. Is that what you are talking about when you say the dogs should have structure and working????


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if you want requirements, a breed survey, marking height, weight, proportions, etc, to me would make more sense to determine breedworthyness from a conformation standpoint than points. 

Points depend on what dogs are present, and what judge is judging. Only one dog gets the points. So if a class of ten dogs has two outstanding dogs, one of them gets points, the other waits for another show to try again. If a dog must have championship points prior to being bred, then it could take the dog or bitch a long time to be considedered breedworthy, and then they may never produce anything. 

Having the dog evaluated and approved for breeding would allow for more than just one dog to be accepted if they warrant it. I think if you try to require championship points on a dog for breeding, if the current rage is exaggerated hind quarters, only dogs with exaggerated hind quarters would be given the approval to be used for breeding, and it could be detrimental to the breed.

Unfortunately, too much is still too subjective when it somes to interpreting the standards.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Genotype is pedigree.......Codmaster in principle nothing is wrong with your premise.....the three dogs that I just mentioned I owned, all six parents have titles, and 5 out of the 6 parents have a conformation rating of Excellent. The sixth is rated very good in conformation out of an excellent sire. Is that what you are talking about when you say the dogs should have structure and working????


Exactly!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I think that if you want requirements, a breed survey, marking height, weight, proportions, etc, to me would make more sense to determine breedworthyness from a conformation standpoint than points.
> 
> Points depend on what dogs are present, and what judge is judging. Only one dog gets the points. So if a class of ten dogs has two outstanding dogs, one of them gets points, the other waits for another show to try again. If a dog must have championship points prior to being bred, then it could take the dog or bitch a long time to be considedered breedworthy, and then they may never produce anything.
> 
> ...


All judging of any type is subjective, of course both in the conformation and working areas; and of course that can lead to many unpopular opinions!

BTW, the exaggerated rear angulation in the US breed ring is almost entirely found in GSD speciality shows and not nearly as prevelant in the all breed AKC shows.

One problem with breed surveys (I think since I am not real familiar with these) is that the dogs are not really compared to each other are they? My idea is that the dogs simply get an opinion from the judge that day as compared to a standard. Is that correct? Or are the dogs in a class ranked with a winner? And wouldn't the result of the survey represent the opinion of that particular judge so if one judge didn't like all blacks (for example, wouldn't they downgrade the survey result for an all black or sable or not anglulated enough?

In the AKC breed ring, it would be a whole heck of a lot easier and quicker to get major points on a dog/bitch than to earn a Sch degree (regarding the time it would take for a real good dog to become "worthy of breeding").


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> All judging of any type is subjective, of course both in the conformation and working areas; and of course that can lead to many unpopular opinions!
> 
> BTW, the exaggerated rear angulation in the US breed ring is almost entirely found in GSD speciality shows and not nearly as prevelant in the all breed AKC shows.
> 
> ...


 
I do not care where it is found, it was an example. If you needed major points, ie, points with a class size dependent on the population of the breed, in order to breed, then, dogs with whatever characteristic was currently IN, would be what would be currently bred. There is some of that going on right now. 

A breed survey would have so many requirements. it would specifically measure the dog against the standard, measure height, depth, angles and proportions. And it might have some other more subjective parts. But if 15 excellent dogs showed up, 15 would get a recommended for breeding stutus.

I really do not care about Schutzhund. It is not my thing. I think there are other venues to test a dogs temperament and obedience. But I do not know that it is any easier to get a dog through a major, winning major points, than it is to get a schutzhund title. For one thing, if the dog has excellent conformation and temperament, and the jugdes are putting up a different type of dog, you could be shelling out show money, hotels etc, for a long tome looking for that championship. Maybe even get a handler. Mostly it takes a ton of money and might take a ton of time as well. Schutzhund, you title the dog, if it passes all the tests, he gets the title. Not only the dog that does the best overall gets the title. But that is what you are asking for conformation, only the best of the best gets points. So maybe your schutzhund, only the best of the best should get points. 

So you go to your schutzhund trials and only one dog all day gets a schutzhund 1, 2, or 3, one of each. The pack it all up and try again next week or next month.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> If a dog must have championship points prior to being bred, then it could take the dog or bitch a long time to be considedered breedworthy, and then they may never produce anything.


I have to disagree with you here. If an AKC show dog cannot earn any AKC points in a fairly reasonable number of shows after reaching maturity, then they are not breed-worthy, IMHO. If we are talking about German style of dogs, then maybe not "points" but a breed rating of at least SG.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I do not care where it is found, it was an example. If you needed major points, ie, points with a class size dependent on the population of the breed, in order to breed, then, dogs with whatever characteristic was currently IN, would be what would be currently bred. There is some of that going on right now.
> 
> A breed survey would have so many requirements. it would specifically measure the dog against the standard, measure height, depth, angles and proportions. And it might have some other more subjective parts. But if 15 excellent dogs showed up, 15 would get a recommended for breeding stutus.
> 
> ...


Actually, the schutzhund trials are not mine! 

I am curious as to what "other venues" would you suggest to use to test a GSD's courage

And, just to let you know, any number of dogs can get a ScH title on a given day if they pass - sort of like in obedience trials in the AKC.

*"I do not care where it is found, it was an example."* -- ????????????? Of what?

Don't know how much experience you might have had in the breed ring with GSD's, but to let you know, there are a number of GSD's that actually finish (win their championship) before they are a year old and a larger number who do it before they are 1 1/2 - do you know any GSD's who have won their ScH title before they are that old? How about finishing their UD title in an area where you might be more familiar with - the AKC obedience ring?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> But the first post clearly stated that sister B WASN'T dysplastic. :smirk:


Ah, you are right. When I read it the first time I skimmed and saw that as mom and dad are OFA'd.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For Selzer, Andaka, and Codmaster, 
Underlying the discussion is the issue of whether a dogs conformation should be measured by the 1) the standard,2)the personal preferences of the Judge, 3) or against other dogs either present or imagined.
It only takes one show to determine if a dog comports to the standard if the dog is of sufficient age. The idea of one dog competing against another really has no relevancy to meeting the standard. It can if you have great dogs before you.....but suppose this is a show in which a dog out of Novice takes the points. To my way of thinking that dog is too young to say it meets standard with all the things that could go wrong before adulthood. It may have the Judge's preference of type and thus win on that day, but it certainly is not a finished product to be now assessed as breedworthy.
The issue of working titles in conjunction with conformation is good for the breed as Codmaster suggested. Of course Europe already does this when they breed survey a dog as it is assessed structurally and must have working minimums, and hip minimums. The process in America is much more laborious in terms of conformation assessment. It is also more subjective as Andaka relates to "Judges preferences". But I don't think this country is set up for something like a Sch title be mandated because Sch is in its infancy in this country. But I have always wondered why there wasn't a push from the GSDCA to have say Championship and minimum of say CDX or UD to be considered worthy of breeding. The argument about the time element isn't really valid if the well being of the breed is important. In europe where every dog get a sch title, though the resources are better(many more clubs), still it only takes 3 to 6 months to get title when serious training is started. Here is America there is no reason a CDX or UD couldn't be accomplished within three to six months with a good sound dog. If the dog is too young or takes forever to achieve this with proper training do we want this dog in the genepool; regardless of stucture??
I think these approaches would go along way towards producing complete well rounded dogs as the standard projects. 
I honestly don't understand why this hasn't been mandated long ago especially in Maturity/Futurity/National Specialty shows where the GSDCA has control. I am sure these people are smarter than Comaster and myself.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

One does need a companion title or herding or tracking to earn an Award of Excellence from the GSDCA. A temperament test certification is required. I believe OFA numbers too. I think the dog has to go select at a national? 

Anyway, there are requirements for conformation, soundness and trainability. Not many of the dogs achieve this.

I was a bit appalled that a Rally obedience title was deemed acceptable for this award. If it were me, the obedience requirement would have been higher.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

How is rally all that different from regular obedience? Titles seem similar to me-you need the same skills mostly


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

You can lure your dog with your hand like you have a treat, you can pat your leg and clap your hands. You can talk to your dog the entire time you are on the course. You can double command..... 

It is much easier.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The lower the bar, the more that will be allowed that is substandard in what you are testing for, in the first place. Rally is great for an owner to have fun with their German Shepherd....but do we really want it as any part of assessment tool in illustrating a German Shepherds Excellence. Any breed of dog can do rally....do we really want excellence in the breed to be measured at this level????:help:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Just want to say that this is a fascinating and enlightening thread for those of us who aren't breeders too.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

_Of course not don't want to let the riff raff in


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yeah, its a shame that some German Shepherds are at riff raff levels


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think most people are sincere in wanting to keep the breed strong in type and mind. The issues we are discussing above are complex and are approached by people from different perspectives and different desires. Because of this the standard is so important to differentiate the perspectives and find common ground as to what we should be producing. As with everything else, ultimately what you end up with, gives credibility to what you are doing. But as with everything else, ignorance and selfishness will greatly impact owners, breeders, and organizations in the maintenace of this great breed. Hopefully, there are things to be learned from dialogue like this on forums for the people who are entering into the breed. I have great faith that most newbies have the wherewithall to recognize that which is meaningful and that which is based on ignorance and selfishness.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I just have one question...

What happened to following the rules?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

G-burg said:


> I just have one question...
> 
> What happened to following the rules?


What rules? The SV rules?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Here in America I don't think that breeding untitled dogs is sacrosant as it is in Europe where it is a necessity for dog registration. I do think that responsible breeders will be knowledgable and trying to maitain all the traits of the breed. With open registrations like AKC, then its not as much right or wrong in breeding untitled dogs as it is being a responsible vs irresponsible breeder.JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> The lower the bar, the more that will be allowed that is substandard in what you are testing for, in the first place. Rally is great for an owner to have fun with their German Shepherd....but do we really want it as any part of assessment tool in illustrating a German Shepherds Excellence. Any breed of dog can do rally....do we really want excellence in the breed to be measured at this level????:help:


I agree that Rally is not too much of a bar, but it is a start and better than nothing. Kind of intended to get people to then move on to regular obedience.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think to answer the original question no both parents do not HAVE to be titled. However, it does tell me a lot about the dedication of the breeder and the genetics behind my dog. Your average dog buyer is buying a pet as a companion and may not be concerned with titles, and in truth sound parents can and do still produce pups with behavioral and temperament issues. If I were looking into buying a dog for competition I wouldn't consider buying a dog without having parents titled in the sport I was interested in because I feel it does increase the chances of me getting the dog I wanted. I also think those that have titled the parents are better equipped to chose the pups who will and will not make the cut down the road. So while a Schutz champ can be born out of untitled parents and a complete dud born out of champions your odds of getting that champion are increased when the breeder has titled their dogs and knows what to look for in potential contender.

I do feel that while conformation is important I would rather see Schutz and obedience based titles because they are a better indicator of temperament and soundness...not just looks and measurements. While I don't compete with Zoe because of time constraints I still wanted a dog from sound lines. Her parents are from titled parents though her mother and father are not titled at all. I spent a lot of time with all the pups before we chose each other and knew what I was looking for. Health testing for me is a must. Have either of the potential parents been OFA'd and screened for genetic illnesses? Would you be marketing the dogs as working dogs or family pets?

If both parents meet the standard, have been health tested, and are sound in temperament I would consider it even with only one parent titled. But I would question what your intention for the breeding was. Do you want to become a breeder or is this a one time thing? If it is a one time thing why are you considering the breeding, what do you think these potential pups bring to the table that isn't out there, and how will you find homes for all these pups?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I do believe that a CD was a the minimal requirement before Rally came along. So, the bar was lowered in a way for the AOE... at least I think that was the progression.

The Performance Award of Merit is offered by the GSDCA also. It requires titling in three areas. One area has to be a title at the highest level. The do no accept an RAE for this. 

Performance Award of Merit (PAM)

Those achieving..
Performance Award of Merit (PAM)


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I gotta agree with the fact that titles aren't everything. They can be factored in, but are a part of the pie.

A good trainer can take a bad dog and title him or her.

I'm glad I found this thread. I couldn't find the "How important is titling" thread but I hope this will do.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> The lower the bar, the more that will be allowed that is substandard in what you are testing for, in the first place. Rally is great for an owner to have fun with their German Shepherd....but do we really want it as any part of assessment tool in illustrating a German Shepherds Excellence. Any breed of dog can do rally....do we really want excellence in the breed to be measured at this level????:help:


 
Bravo!!!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have bred an untitled female (BH, AD, CGC, 2 legs of CD and OFA Good/Normal) to an imported male V conformation, SchH3, KKL1 - the female was trained to most of Sch3 level, just not trialed due to club BS/internet stalking BS and my general level of disgust with the higher profile schutzhund community which revels in drama...this is a female I bred, from a dam I trained from puppy hood and titled to Sch3/IPO3, CD, CGC, WH KKL1 and a sire who was a very proven producer and from whom I had also raised and titled a male (half sibling) to SG, Sch3, WH, OB3, CD, CGC....so I KNEW the female.

So, in view of her age, and knowing her - I bred her. THEN I went to a seminar to watch, got pushed into participating, and with encouragement from Karla/Dean Calderon and the German trainer at the seminar, I took out out with 1 session and 1 warm up at the club in Buffalo and titled her on a helper who had done Nationals that year LOL and threw in 6 or 8 tracking sessions as we had not tracked for over a year - so now she is SG, Sch1, KKL and ready for 2 and 3 if time/$$/next litter allows it. I would still have bred her then and again even without the 1, because I had enough training in on her, had her on multiple fields, helpers, environments to understand her and the opinions of people I respect validated my decision to breed her.

I also own a wonderful daughter of hers - who I will breed....will I get her titled??? Don't know - she was "puppy napped" by friends, I can train her occassionally, but don't know if I can get it put together for a title....I will breed her for myself to get a daughter tho...but not breed her repeatedly just to sell puppies...so while I do believe in the European system of breeding dogs who have passed all the criteria - in this country, I beleive we have to make some adjustments and allowances. 

One of my pups (fingers crossed!!!) should become a K9 and if so, I can see using him down the road for a litter or two....I believe that a certification for a K9 officer holds as much weight as a Schutzhund title. Hips/elbows etc will be done of course! 

So within certain circumstances, which should be rational and logical, I can see using an untitled female for breeding (or male) to keep family/bloodlines/specifics of character within a breeders hands....but to just breed untitled dogs for litters for sale - no, I don't think alot of that.

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As I stated previously, I agree titles aren't everything and certainly letters before or after a dog's name doesn't change it's genetics.

But I see so many people quick to dismiss titles, saying they don't matter, or that a good trainer can title anything, and I have to wonder how many people making statements like that have ever titled a dog in anything, much less something more high level, multi faceted and difficult like SchH? And therefore I have to seriously question if that opinion is based in anyway on any sort of experience or knowledge of what the training and titling process can accomplish in terms of testing the dog.

It does seem more often than not I encounter this attitude and see these statements made by people who have not titled a dog, or in many cases even worked or trained a dog in anything. Whereas those who have done it, and therefore have a much better understanding of what can be uncovered about a dog's core character in the process, are far less likely to dismiss titles as unimportant or make statements like a good trainer can title anything. 

Even those experienced people who consider titles questionnable in their value base that opinion more on the current state of certain sports and trends in judging, not on the process as it was meant to be and what it can tell about the dog, and they do consider training and working the dog important, and would never breed a dog without doing that at least, it's only the trialing for a title that might be considered optional, not the time and effort put into working the dog to some level.

Just an observation....


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

i don't care if a dog has a title or not. I do care if the person breeding them is actively working their dogs and know's what they're looking at. if breeder A has 10 titled breeding dogs that were bought titled and just kept for breeding ranks pretty low on my list, compared to the breeder that has owned raised and selected their breeding stock accordingly.

and lastly, I'm going to test the dogs myself. I won't be sold on BS then.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> But I see so many people quick to dismiss titles, saying they don't matter, or that a good trainer can title anything, and I have to wonder how many people making statements like that have ever titled a dog in anything, much less something more high level, multi faceted and difficult like SchH? And therefore I have to seriously question if that opinion is based in anyway on any sort of experience or knowledge of what the training and titling process can accomplish in terms of testing the dog.
> 
> It does seem more often than not I encounter this attitude and see these statements made by people who have not titled a dog, or in many cases even worked or trained a dog in anything. Whereas those who have done it, and therefore have a much better understanding of what can be uncovered about a dog's core character in the process, are far less likely to dismiss titles as unimportant or make statements like a good trainer can title anything.


Agreed!!!! This goes back to the whole foundation of schutzhund - the titles/process are a TEST/DEMONSTRATION of the character and genetics demonstrated by the dog to make decisions for BREEDING PURPOSES!! 

Unfortunately - there ARE too many titles gifted - probably in Europe too... and the value and validity of the titles actually earned is diminished by those gifted titles on unworthy dogs....the whole breed would be different IMO if titles WERE actually always truely earned, not gifts or hard trained weak dogs whose training desigues their true nature. At a club level, the members/owner/trainers do know in their hearts what dogs really should be titled, and which are prezzies!




> Even those experienced people who consider titles questionnable in their value base that opinion more on the current state of certain sports and trends in judging, not on the process as it was meant to be and what it can tell about the dog, and they do consider training and working the dog important, and would never breed a dog without doing that at least, it's only the trialing for a title that might be considered optional, not the time and effort put into working the dog to some level.
> 
> Just an observation....


Exactly - the points are more a result of training time and resources - and the sport is so ridden with politics, personal agendas, breeders "owning" clubs and making sure they sell all the members and newcomers THEIR pups (thinking about a nice imported pup down south whose owner was initially shunned due to his NOT buying one from club member!!! and told that outright) - After 12 years in the sport, sometimes I think that the sports worst enemy is the club politics....from local to National level!

Lee


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Exactly - the points are more a result of training time and resources - and the sport is so ridden with politics, personal agendas, breeders "owning" clubs and making sure they sell all the members and newcomers THEIR pups (thinking about a nice imported pup down south whose owner was initially shunned due to his NOT buying one from club member!!! and told that outright) - After 12 years in the sport, sometimes I think that the sports worst enemy is the club politics....from local to National level!
> 
> Lee


And this is why I haven't found the correct club.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Nary's dad,
Since you are located in Northern Illinois.....have you considered any of the following clubs?
1) Indian Creek (Marengo, IL)
2) Northern IL Schutzhund Club (Grays Lake, IL)
3) Chicago Schutzhund Verein (Northbrook, IL)
4) BurOak Hundesport (Long Grove, IL)
5) Mill Creek Schutzhund Club (Gurnee area, IL)
6) Haupstadt Schutzhund Club ? (Madison area, WI)
7) Stateline Schutzhund Club (Harvard, IL)


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