# Civil - meaning?



## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

I see "civil" used to describe GSDs (ie. the dog has strong civil.) a lot and I'm quite sure I am 100% clear on what people mean. Can someone describe what they mean?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This is a term used in protection training and law enforcement. A Civil dog is one that will bite for real. Often, dogs trained to bite a bite-sleeve or a bite suit do not have the nerve to bite a person for real, that is a weakness in a dog bred and trained for law enforcement or protection. A dog described as Civil has no such hang-ups. They are not afraid to engage for real, and fight for real.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I've been wondering about this.
How do you know if a dog will bite "for real", and not just on the field and a bite sleeve?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Sounds like a great definition, Castlemaid. I'm curious though why in the world this word was used to mean those things. According to webster, it means nothing of the sort:



> *Definition of CIVIL*
> 
> 1
> _a_ *:* of or relating to citizens _b_ *:* of or relating to the state or its citizenry <_civil_ strife>
> ...


In fact, according to that definition of "adequate in courtesy and politeness" it seems a dog who is willing to bite for real is anything but "civil." Do you happen to know the history of this word's use in the law enforcement or SchH world?

I'm also curious how this word is actually composed in a sentence. The word is defined as an adjective. Do dog people use it as a noun?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I've been wondering about this.
> How do you know if a dog will bite "for real", and not just on the field and a bite sleeve?


 
A good trainer should be able to test a dog and get a good idea about the dog's temperament. A number of ScH clubs used to test a dog before they let the owners train them. Don't know if they still do the same type of testing generally. This was a long time ago when the training was more in defence drive.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> A good trainer should be able to test a dog and get a good idea about the dog's temperament. A number of ScH clubs used to test a dog before they let the owners train them. Don't know if they still do the same type of testing generally. This was a long time ago when the training was more in defence drive.


So basically there's a lot of dogs out there who look nice on the field but if an intruder has no bite sleeve, they're up a creek??


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I've heard it used to mean a dog that possesses appropriate defense aggression towards humans. A dog that does not have to be trained in prey drive to bite a sleeve, but who will bite for real out of defense drive.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I've heard it used to mean a dog that possesses appropriate defense aggression towards humans. A dog that does not have to be trained in prey drive to bite a sleeve, but who will bite for real out of defense drive.


That is how it was explained to me as well.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> So basically there's a lot of dogs out there who look nice on the field but if an intruder has no bite sleeve, they're up a creek??


 
That is how it was explained to me by those far more knowledgable in protection work than I ever will be. "Sleeve Happy' was one of the terms that was used.

And there is nothing wrong with that for the majority of household pets, I don't think.

As an example of sleeve happy, do you think that an agitator for a PPD or militay/police K9 dog would attempt to pet the dog on the head while the dog is attacking and grabbing some piece of him/her?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I've heard it used to mean a dog that possesses appropriate defense aggression towards humans. A dog that does not have to be trained in prey drive to bite a sleeve, but who will bite for real out of defense drive.


 
Do you know how they distinguish a "civil" dog from FA dogs? 

Body language? Whether the dog is at the end of the leash or hanging back? Bark, lunge and back up?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I've been wondering about this.
> How do you know if a dog will bite "for real", and not just on the field and a bite sleeve?


The dog can be tested on a hidden sleeve for one. And experience trainers can often tell exactly what they have in front of them (i.e., a sleeve happy dog, or a civil dog).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> So basically there's a lot of dogs out there who look nice on the field but if an intruder has no bite sleeve, they're up a creek??


Yup, lots and lots! You'd be surprised.



> Do you know how they distinguish a "civil" dog from FA dogs?
> 
> Body language? Whether the dog is at the end of the leash or hanging back? Bark, lunge and back up?


Yes, the body language gives it away. For someone new to this, it is hard to read the difference, but once someone points out the differences between a dog in a fear-aggressive reaction, and a dog in a forward defense/fight drive action, then the differences are quite easy to spot. The look in the eyes, the willingness to move forward towards the threat, the tone of the bark all tell a story.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Do you know how they distinguish a "civil" dog from FA dogs?
> 
> Body language? Whether the dog is at the end of the leash or hanging back? Bark, lunge and back up?


Body language. If the dog is civil, you will see the ears up and forward, tail up, and dog lunging to get to the threat and engage him. He may be barking or may not, but will definitely bite without hesitation!

An FA dog will have ears back, hackles up, the whites of the eyes showing, tail between the legs, be lunging forward and then back, and will probably be making snarling and barking sounds in a higher pitch. The dog is afraid and is attempting to defend himself, and will probably bite, but would really rather flee.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Body language. If the dog is civil, you will see the ears up and forward, tail up, and dog lunging to get to the threat and engage him. He may be barking or may not, but will definitely bite without hesitation!
> 
> An FA dog will have ears back, hackles up, the whites of the eyes showing, tail between the legs, be lunging forward and then back, and will probably be making snarling and barking sounds in a higher pitch. The dog is afraid and is attempting to defend himself, and will probably bite, but would really rather flee.


Good explanation! Another thing that an FA dog may do is avoid looking directly at the threat - or keep looking away, barking not at the threat, but at the empty air next to the threat - wanting to sound big and impressive to intimidate, but afraid to directly challenge the threat in front.


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

I agree with Castle and Free, a good helper will push a dog during bitework when he feels the dog is of the age in which the push will not force the dog to feel threatened by the helper and create a negative reaction. He will keep that dog in prey mode to build on his confidence then try to push them again, which is most dogs. Then there are some dogs, that when pushed, essentially look at the helper and say "bring it on" and exhibits the body language as previously described. I have one of those dogs and when my trainer starts to step in and/or gives a stick hit or two, my 16 month old just moves toward hims with a focused on his eyes and a deep growling bark, but we saw this in him when he was 8 months old. Otherwise he is great off the field, social and completely neutral.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

So... does anyone know why the word "civil" was chosen to describe this behaviors/tendencies?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I always wanted to do bite work with our GSD who passed away 2yrs. ago now.
I'm positive, knowing him, that he'd have excelled. 

He had this certain...deliberateness about him.
When company would come over, he'd meet them at the door and nudge their arm, looking up in almost a "bark and hold". He had no formal training though.
He'd sit there for a few moments until we said to move away, as if he was waiting for them to "mess up" and do something worth biting over. He never turned tail though, and would just look up and keep his nose near their arm. 

He never bit though, except one day when our landlord's son was taunting him - even then it was a "pinch" and not a full on bite.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wildo said:


> So... does anyone know why the word "civil" was chosen to describe this behaviors/tendencies?


I don't know, as it does seem counterintuitive. 

The only thing I can think of is that the word "civilian" means a person, and that the word "civil" regards a dog's dispostion toward "civilians". 

It's a stretch, but it's the only thing I can think of.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

wildo said:


> So... does anyone know why the word "civil" was chosen to describe this behaviors/tendencies?


No idea - I think I'll ask in the IPO/K9 section, I'm curious too. 

One explanation I heard is that since most protection/patrol dogs are trained by the military or the police with the decoys wearing protective gear, a 'real' dog will bite for 'real' when out of training and operational in the civilian world. 
No idea if this is accurate or not - sounds to me more like an explanation that someone came up with and others latched on to because it sounds plausible.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

So, for example, I was out in the yard with Shasta and Thor. A branch broke off a tree and crashed to the ground about 25 feet away from us. Shasta circled around behind me with her hackles up, but Thor rushed toward the sound to investigate. Now Thor is just a baby, of course, but can I read anything about his defense drive in that behavior? It's a typical reaction for him when he sees something new/different, whereas Shasta always had to be (strongly) encouraged to investigate.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks guys! I'm just glad I'm not the only one to see that the definition of the word doesn't really match the definition applied in the dog world. Truthfully, linguistics are really interesting to me and it just made me curious. Kind of like that atrocity: "gameness."


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

paulag1955 said:


> So, for example, I was out in the yard with Shasta and Thor. A branch broke off a tree and crashed to the ground about 25 feet away from us. Shasta circled around behind me with her hackles up, but Thor rushed toward the sound to investigate. Now Thor is just a baby, of course, but can I read anything about his defense drive in that behavior? It's a typical reaction for him when he sees something new/different, whereas Shasta always had to be (strongly) encouraged to investigate.


There is absolutely zero defense behaviour in what Thor did - he was not feeling threatened at all, he realized it was just a branch that fell, and he was curious about it. Shows good nerve and a healthy solid curiosity. Defense drive does not not normally kick in until the dog is more mature, usually around one or two years old, not something you would expect to see in a three month old. Too early to evaluate that in Thor, but a good indication of good temperament that he was unfazed by the crash. You don't want to see defense drive is a puppy - putting a young pup in a situation where they feel they have to fight back is a lot of psychological stress on them and can really affect their view of the world as being dangerous and unsafe (NOT what you want in a baby!). 

That is why in protection training young dogs are started out in prey drive, where it is all a big game to win the tug, and only when they are older does the trainer start to push them into defense.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> There is absolutely zero defense behaviour in what Thor did - he was not feeling threatened at all, he realized it was just a branch that fell, and he was curious about it. Shows good nerve and a healthy solid curiosity. Defense drive does not not normally kick in until the dog is more mature, usually around one or two years old, not something you would expect to see in a three month old. Too early to evaluate that in Thor, but a good indication of good temperament that he was unfazed by the crash. You don't want to see defense drive is a puppy - putting a young pup in a situation where they feel they have to fight back is a lot of psychological stress on them and can really affect their view of the world as being dangerous and unsafe (NOT what you want in a baby!).
> 
> That is why in protection training young dogs are started out in prey drive, where it is all a big game to win the tug, and only when they are older does the trainer start to push them into defense.


What did you think about my example?


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the explanations! Glad I'm not the only one who thought it was a little confusing!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As far as the examples, I think in order to really know if the dog is civil then you need to know the bloodlines, or you need to really test the dog. I don't know bloodlines so I'd have to ask people like Lisa, Anne, Cliff what to expect. Short of that, I'd have to see the dog tested, really pushed to see the defensive reactions and protective instincts. 

I don't know if this is correct either but to me civil is not just defense vs. prey, but a more active, social type aggression. The dog is just naturally more protective. Any dog *will* bite when pushed far enough so a dog that is overly sharp and biting "for real" out if high defense to me doesn't mean a whole lot. To me a dog is "civil" when he's not cued or distracted by equipment and is ready and willing to take matters into his own hands. Correct me if I'm wrong...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't know if this is correct either but to me civil is not just defense vs. prey, but a more active, social type aggression. The dog is just naturally more protective. Any dog *will* bite when pushed far enough so a dog that is overly sharp and biting "for real" out if high defense to me doesn't mean a whole lot. To me a dog is "civil" when he's not cued or distracted by equipment and is ready and willing to take matters into his own hands. Correct me if I'm wrong...


No, I think you are right. A "civil" dog has suspcision, thinks and judges for himself, and takes initiative if he feels it is warranted. He'll issue a challenge to the threat and won't back down from a fight.

I am not sure if it stems from social dominance, defense, or fight drive. But I don't think a dog has to have excessive sharpness or low thresholds to be "civil". He can be very level-headed and remain obedient to the handler even when aroused. An FA dog, on the other hand, will be inconsolable until the threat retreats.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

codmaster said:


> That is how it was explained to me by those far more knowledgable in protection work than I ever will be. "Sleeve Happy' was one of the terms that was used.
> 
> And there is nothing wrong with that for the majority of household pets, I don't think.
> 
> As an example of sleeve happy, do you think that an agitator for a PPD or militay/police K9 dog would attempt to pet the dog on the head while the dog is attacking and grabbing some piece of him/her?


When a decoy/helper does a head grab/stroke while the dog is on the sleeve, it is a test of courage for the dog, pressure on him to bring more power or the dog may spit the sleeve to retreat or re-engage. 
That said, I think any well bred GSD won't allow a head pat from a stranger without a bit of discretion(not saying a bite is appropriate,but they don't like their bubble invaded). Not one of my three would allow it, and only one even knows what a sleeve is. After Onyx's maturity, her aggression doesn't seem fear based, she likes the fight mode and will trigger such events.
Yet she isn't discriminating enough to know when she should or should not engage. Unbalanced.
It isn't training but what is in the dogs heart. 
The key is the dog knowing when and when not to engage.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

This is a most interesting thread, and, Lucia, thank you for your analysis of my example.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

My first Beauceron female (the one in my avatar) was always described as civil. I had been doing bite work with her for almost a year when our club was invited to go work with another club one weekend. At this point she had only worked on the 3-4 helpers at our club and they had all worked her from the first time she came out at about 7 months old so they were all used to her and as it happens in clubs they all had a rhythm working her (as well as all the other dogs). When we're driving to the other club the TD says to me "remind me to let the helpers in the other club know that Java is really fast and is pretty civil, even for a young dog". I was all proud about my civil dog since to me it meant well-mannered and polite . So it's time for us to go out on the field and I tell the helper that she is a very civil dog, even though she is young. I'm probably saying it the way a mother would tell their friend that the teacher said your child is gifted in math or something. The helper kind of smiled and snorted and said, sure and went out on the field. 
Well, she goes in for a beautiful hold and bark and he goes to raise the sleeve to give her the bite and he is being pretty sluggish about it and she grabs him up under the arm kind of in the rib cage area. Luckily he saw it coming at the last second and twisted away enough that she didn't get a full bite and got mostly his scratch pants. I was totally dumbfounded. I was mortified and got her on a platz very quickly. Both clubs members were hanging on the fence watching, the other helpers were just dying to give him crap. When I got settled I went to apologize and said, "Well, I guess no one will ever believe me again when I tell them I have a well mannered, civil dog.". The whole place just fell out laughing and I was standing there totally confused. 
Needless to say I get a lesson on the drive home about the difference between civil and CIVIL!
I will say that it never happened again, but I learned to read her better and also learned to tell new helpers what to look for. She ended up being a really reliable dog when all was said and done, but my husband said he knew she'd bite him for real if she ever thought of an excuse.


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