# Nat Geo new show 'Alpha Dogs' Good or Bad for WLs?



## Gwenhwyfair

I gotta admit when I saw the first trailer I got a knot in my stomach.

The show is about Von Liche Kennels located in Indiana training police and military dogs. 

How will this affect Malinois and GSDs? Will it cause more of the 'macho' I want a 'bad' dog effect? Will it drive up the price for working line dogs and Malis more due to increased demand for the breeds?

I don't want to pre-judge but historically this sort of attention has not bode well as popularity seems to increase problems within breeds. As my trainer said this week (he knows some of the trainers in the show too) anyhoo as he said 'there goes the Malis'.

The kennel starring in the show is advertising that they are now increasing their kennel capacity size to 500 dogs. 

Welcome to Vohne Liche Kennels - Bomb Dogs, Drug Dogs, Police Dogs, Narcotic Dogs, Cadaver Dogs


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## Gwenhwyfair

Link to Nat Geo site and show information: Alpha Dogs | Nat Geo Wild


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## Blitzkrieg1

The interest in actually working dogs has been on the decline for a long time just ask the veterens, hopefully this show will raise awareness and interest in what these dogs can do. More people interested in working their dogs and purchasing dogs for the purpose of sport/work is not a bad thing. You cant spend your life trying to hide under a rock because more interest will lead to less savory sorts becoming involved. Will their be more idiots around sure, theres already plenty..but ulimately more interest in these dogs actually doing more then being just pets isnt a bad thing.


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## Capone22

I just hope it makes people realize that these dogs are no joke and NEED a job. And not ruin the breed by creating more byb GSD and mals. 


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## Jax08

They currently have 150 dogs for sale. So what happens to the wash outs and the ones not sold in a reasonable time frame?


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## Shaolin

I saw the trailer for the show and it didn't sit well. They are running the commercials constantly. I feel like this could be a bad thing; everytime a popular TV show or movie comes out that prominently features a dog, that breed becomes super popular. After the movie Bolt came out, people were *constantly* asking what breeder my dog came from so they could get one just like mine. I was never so happy to say that Finn came from her very last litter.

I can see the popularity of Malis and GSDs going through the roof, but what's worse is that there's going to be a whole ton of half trained protection dogs running around. I don't know anything about protection training much past bite work, but I know that, in the *wrong *hands, a bite work trained dog is not a good thing.

I can see people running out to buy these high drive GSDs and Malis, but what's going to happen is in a year, there's going to be a huge explosion of these dogs in shelters due to BYBs churning out as many puppies as their dogs can make or from owners who bought a pup from a reputable breeder, but don't understand the commitment it takes to get your dog to the level that they are showing on the show.

It's going to be interesting, no matter what.


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## onyx'girl

I think the problem may be the people deciding they can 'train' dogs themselves as a new career and all these new PP trainers will pop up. I have one in my area that solicits on CL and other internet classifieds....either asking for free decoy work, will train your dog as a PP, or in need of sleeves! Stupid. 
I'm looking forward to watching the show. I don't look forward to what effect it may have on the general public, but I don't think it will make people decide to breed and market the breeds that are shown.
One of the episodes was filmed in MI(Michigan Impossible)


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## Gwenhwyfair

Fair point but I was talking to a LEO just a week ago about why they don't have a K9 unit, cost was the number one reason.

If this show drives up demand (more? It has been commented since 9/11/01 and homeland security awareness and demand for WL have been up?) ...but if it drives up demand the possibility is more LE agencies, especially local/county will be priced out of having K9s.

Normally when I get a strong 'oh no' type reaction.....I pay attention. This show worries me and I think the negative scenarios have greater potential to outweigh the positive not only for LE but for those of us wanting dogs for protection sports. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The interest in actually working dogs has been on the decline for a long time just ask the veterens, hopefully this show will raise awareness and interest in what these dogs can do. More people interested in working their dogs and purchasing dogs for the purpose of sport/work is not a bad thing. You cant spend your life trying to hide under a rock because more interest will lead to less savory sorts becoming involved. Will their be more idiots around sure, theres already plenty..but ulimately more interest in these dogs actually doing more then being just pets isnt a bad thing.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup I agree, trainers I have worked with were already getting enough calls from people wanting 'attack' dogs. 

Awareness is good, a really thoughtful documentary show about these dogs would be great but this type of 'reality' format IMHO lends itself more to the drama the emotions not education.





onyx'girl said:


> I think the problem may be the people deciding they can 'train' dogs themselves as a new career and all these new PP trainers will pop up. I have one in my area that solicits on CL and other internet classifieds....either asking for free decoy work, will train your dog as a PP, or in need of sleeves! Stupid.
> I'm looking forward to watching the show. I don't look forward to what effect it may have on the general public, but I don't think it will make people decide to breed and market the breeds that are shown.
> One of the episodes was filmed in MI(Michigan Impossible)


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## martemchik

Working dogs are already growing in popularity. "Dark Sable" is clearly the IT GSD to have right now. It used to be everyone wanted a good ol' American Black and Tan, now I'm seeing all sorts of working lines pop in and out of my training club. Sadly, some of these people aren't doing the research and don't have the dedication I did when I first got my boy and then fell in love with dog training.

We get a bunch of macho guys that come through with a puppy that is clearly unstable bragging about how brave he is and planning on doing Schutzhund all the while the 5 month old pup is fear barking at my full grown boy who's just looking at him with a puzzled look on his face.

Working dogs are already popular...I have a neighbor with a Mal...they don't work him in anything, although somehow the guy has gotten him to be a pretty obedient dog, I just wish he'd do something with him. We talked about agility once but I don't think that ever amounted to anything.

Look at this forum when someone asks for a good breeder...people rarely recommend a show line breeder. Once in a while Robin gets her name thrown in there, but usually its the standard 5 that we all know on this forum. I know this is mostly due to the fact that a majority of us have working lines, but still, we're recommending working line dogs to people that we have no idea what their commitment level to anything is or will be.

I actually hope the show makes "regulated" protection sports more popular. As it sits, my area doesn't have one within an hour of it, and I'm in Milwaukee. I wish we had a Schutzhund training place closer to us, that would really take a hurdle out of me doing it.


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## StephenV

And don't forget the movie Zero Dark Thirty which had Cairo, a Belgian Malinois, who was with the SEALS during the raid on Bin Laden.


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## Olivers mama

I think this is Much Ado About Nothing. Or maybe it's just me - but a doggie show that "might" make people more interested in GSDs & Malis just doesn't reign important. And when you add that descriptive phrase I detest - "Reality Show" - well, those shows make me gag. Anyone who finds these shows 'real' needs to live in DisneyLand.

Maybe it will spark a greater interest in the breeds - just like RinTinTin did. Or Lassie. Or Big Red. Old Yeller. Breed interest ebbs just like the tides. GSD today, LabraDoodle tomorrow.

The LEOs with whom I've spoken said that the increase in popularity actually lowers the cost of dogs to be trained for LE, so I don't believe more interest will make it more difficult for good dogs to enter LE.

Interest in breeds like GSD, Rotties & yes, Pitties has increased the past 4-5 years because many people feel better with a dog around - thy feel threatened & turn to dogs for protection or to alert them. Nothing new there.

And you always have the option of not watching the darn show. Perhaps find something else to be worried about - there's a lot out there!


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## Gwenhwyfair

LEOs and trainers of LE dogs have commented about the problem of pricing which is one of the reasons they swtiched over to Malis . That is why there exists groups/kennels/trainers who actually train and donate dogs for LE. Their existence is a testament to the problem. 

Additionally if you have been following the breeding section and dicussions about pricing the prices have been going steadily up over the last few years. I've been following this closely because I'd like to get a WL dog in a couple of years and am starting to get worried.

Furthermore I don't watch reality shows because most of the time they have very little to do with reality. My not watching this show will not affect the overall outcome of my well founded concerns. My concerns are based on historical and repeated problems of a breed being 'over' popularized. Ask a Jack Russell rescue group what the show 'Fraisier' did to them and the breed for one more recent example. 

We're already fighting breed bans (since you mention pitties) so you are then implying that it would be just hunky dory for WL GSDs and Malis to fall into the same trap and the resultant bad reputation and public over-reaction. got it.





Olivers mama said:


> I think this is Much Ado About Nothing. Or maybe it's just me - but a doggie show that "might" make people more interested in GSDs & Malis just doesn't reign important. And when you add that descriptive phrase I detest - "Reality Show" - well, those shows make me gag. Anyone who finds these shows 'real' needs to live in DisneyLand.
> 
> Maybe it will spark a greater interest in the breeds - just like RinTinTin did. Or Lassie. Or Big Red. Old Yeller. Breed interest ebbs just like the tides. GSD today, LabraDoodle tomorrow.
> 
> The LEOs with whom I've spoken said that the increase in popularity actually lowers the cost of dogs to be trained for LE, so I don't believe more interest will make it more difficult for good dogs to enter LE.
> 
> Interest in breeds like GSD, Rotties & yes, Pitties has increased the past 4-5 years because many people feel better with a dog around - thy feel threatened & turn to dogs for protection or to alert them. Nothing new there.
> 
> And you always have the option of not watching the darn show. Perhaps find something else to be worried about - there's a lot out there!


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## onyx'girl

I don't think this show will affect the prices of WL's. LEO K9 breeders have their niche, and most involved in K9 training know who to go to for certain lines. 
The dogs cost about the same as a young pup, but get some training into it, thats when the price goes up, up. 
How many "pet" dog people will find the show interesting? 
IDK....I doubt it will make them want to run out and get a Mal/Dutch or GSD.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I hear you...but where I got a good bit of info about this as well was on this site with breeders/trainers involved in that niche of the WL dogs.

A comment here I recall was that since 9/11/01 the demand has gone up and so have the prices. My local police department had K9 units but upon the last dog retiring they did not get another k9, primary reason cited, cost. Naturally that cost will include maintenance, vet, food not just the cost of the dog but that cost has been noted here and elsewhere as a part of the concern. Now if this show sparks more buy demand for WL dogs then it has the potential to make the problem worse.

On the other hand my and other trainers I've met have commented on how people call them wanting a 'bad dog' will this cause an upswing in that?

I hope I'm wrong and with all the cable channels available now-a-days the audience is more diluted so less viewers per show too.....but I just love the dogs and don't want to see any negatives to come to them due to this. 

Like I said, what I really would like to see is a thoughtful indepth documentary type film, not a reality based series. 

Time will tell.....how it plays out.




onyx'girl said:


> I don't think this show will affect the prices of WL's. LEO K9 breeders have their niche, and most involved in K9 training know who to go to for certain lines.
> The dogs cost about the same as a young pup, but get some training into it, thats when the price goes up, up.
> How many "pet" dog people will find the show interesting?
> IDK....I doubt it will make them want to run out and get a Mal/Dutch or GSD.


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## wolfstraum

von Liche has been around for a long time and sells ALOT of dogs....have seen an increase locally in dogs from there as opposed to a few other LE brokers...

GSDs are already one of the most prolific of AKC breeds - No. 2 in 2011 I think, hovering between 3-5 for most years prior....

Prices for pups going up - between a couple of the big commercial places in the PNW and CA setting the bar really high....and the actual investment in the breeding dogs, and the prices of gas, dog food up to $60 per bag, vehicles, training fees, veterinary costs for testing, outrageous stud fees - yep they have to go up....when owners of males with Sch1 and no KKL want $800-$1000 for stud fees??? As much as dogs who have won Nationals and gone to International Championships! Costs of breeding through the roof....lost work, travel [motel, gas, meals, care for dogs left home], progesterone tests etc.....

I can keep pups to 10 months and sell to brokers for $4000.....if I wanted to....3 of Basha's grandkids are LE dogs sold at that age....brokers buy green dogs and resell at a 50% minimum profit....

sorry - just rambling here I guess!

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

I noticed that too.

No rambling, good insight on the cost issues, thanks.

von Liche is increasing capacity to 500 dogs per their website. My bet is they are doing that as a business decision in anticipation of increased demand(??)

I just dunno....about that. 






wolfstraum said:


> von Liche has been around for a long time and sells ALOT of dogs....have seen an increase locally in dogs from there as opposed to a few other LE brokers...
> 
> GSDs are already one of the most prolific of AKC breeds - No. 2 in 2011 I think, hovering between 3-5 for most years prior....
> 
> Prices for pups going up - between a couple of the big commercial places in the PNW and CA setting the bar really high....and the actual investment in the breeding dogs, and the prices of gas, dog food up to $60 per bag, vehicles, training fees, veterinary costs for testing, outrageous stud fees - yep they have to go up....when owners of males with Sch1 and no KKL want $800-$1000 for stud fees??? As much as dogs who have won Nationals and gone to International Championships! Costs of breeding through the roof....lost work, travel [motel, gas, meals, care for dogs left home], progesterone tests etc.....
> 
> I can keep pups to 10 months and sell to brokers for $4000.....if I wanted to....3 of Basha's grandkids are LE dogs sold at that age....brokers buy green dogs and resell at a 50% minimum profit....
> 
> sorry - just rambling here I guess!
> 
> Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

another thought...I wonder if what happened to the Arabians in the 80s will happen to GSDs & Malis with a bubble and then a crash>


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## TommyB681

i think it all depends how they portray the dogs. It can be good for people to see the positive side of these dogs and be educational. Some people may be like "hey i want a dog like that" just for the 'attack' ability. Everyone gets something differnt out of television shows. Im excited to learn about some great dogs and their background and training for work


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## wildwolf60

We met some of the trainers for Von Liche... We happened upon a training session going on last summer and stopped to watch. We were greeted by them and got a little explanation of who they were and what they were doing. They were training the dogs for use in military applications, as well as police work. My understanding was that they already had places for these dogs, or the dogs being trained were a part of a dept and were just going thru more intensive training. 
The already trained dogs on site are there because sometimes depts need a trained dog and can't wait for one to go thru the training to become certified. They do place these dogs with handlers. I don't believe that they would just sell anybody off the street a highly trained dog without making sure you knew how to handle that dog. They didn't strike me as irresponsible, so hopefully, this show will just showcase the amount of dedication and work that goes into training these intelligent dogs, and the great jobs they do for humans.


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## Gwenhwyfair

My trainer knows a couple of the guys at von Liche. 

I was wondering, outside of perhaps the military, is there another kennel with that many dogs (500)?

I know in the breeder section the emphasis is on quality NOT quantity.

I guess I've just seen too many times over the years where this sort of thing usually ends badly and I have a hard time ignoring that. 

I didn't care about CM getting 6K for his seminars, that's free market with adult human beings making decisions that affect themselves only, spending their money as they see fit on a seminar. 

When it's the dogs (or other animals) I get more worried because they don't get to decide and the 'reality' is we human beans don't have a good track record when the almighty dollar is involved.


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## onyx'girl

Are they breeding all 500 or are there 500 in the program for training, some of which they've purchased from other kennels. 
I assumed the number of dogs in their program wasn't necessarily what they've bred, but have brokered to train. Big operation regardless!


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## Gwenhwyfair

One more thought....a comment was made about watching 'good dogs'.

I agree that this show has the potential to beat the odds and possibly do more good then harm, but it begs another question.

I started getting involved in Schutzhund a little over a year ago. The more I learn the more I realize what I did not and do not know. I don't think I would be qualified to judge what a 'good' MWD or LE K-9 is. 

The conclusion being the vast majority of the public is not involved in nor acquainted with the WL dogs would not be able to judge what a 'good' dog in this venue is.

....just food for thought.....


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## Gwenhwyfair

My understanding is they do not breed, I'm not sure though. I'll ask my trainer tomorrow.



onyx'girl said:


> Are they breeding all 500 or are there 500 in the program for training, some of which they've purchased from other kennels.
> I assumed the number of dogs in their program wasn't necessarily what they've bred, but have brokered to train. Big operation regardless!


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## Stroid

One of my good buddies works for them as a trainer, he has 10 years of military experience with half of those being a marine core dog trainer...also has worked with CIA, FBI, Secret Service. What I can say is he absolutely loves and treats dogs with the utmost respect and love. I was with him last week talking about the show and he was really excited about it because of the value he thinks it will have, these dogs have a reputation and not always the best one. In regards to the additional dogs yes they are ramping up the amount they have at the kennel, but they have a very rigorous process that they go through to get the dogs with the best temperament. I have a mali/gsd mix i got from a recue and he may be going up there for training soon with my friend. Although he did say if he is really good at certain work the kennel will probably offer to buy him from me.


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## AgileGSD

I don't know. GSDs are already super popular, not sure this show will change much for them. Working line Mals are sort of bad off already IMO and I just hope this show doesn't increase the stupid people breeding them "to make money selling police dogs". Honestly, working line GSDs seem better off to me than working line Mals. I don't see tons of people breeding GSDs directly from working breeders and trying to sell them as police dogs then dumping them at 5-8 months old when it doesn't work out. Perhaps it just seems like more of an issue with Mals because there's so fewer of them and dogs from that sort of scenario, along with working bred dogs sold to inappropriate homes are pretty much keeping ABMC rescue full at all times.


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## Lauri & The Gang

I hope they spend a good part of the time showing how much *TRAINING *goes into getting these dogs to do what they do.

And how much maintenance work is needed to KEEP them going.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



Lauri & The Gang said:


> I hope they spend a good part of the time showing how much *TRAINING *goes into getting these dogs to do what they do.
> 
> And how much maintenance work is needed to KEEP them going.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Going from approx. 160 dogs to 500 is a significant jump in their _business_ model. Very significant.





Stroid said:


> One of my good buddies works for them as a trainer, he has 10 years of military experience with half of those being a marine core dog trainer...also has worked with CIA, FBI, Secret Service. What I can say is he absolutely loves and treats dogs with the utmost respect and love. I was with him last week talking about the show and he was really excited about it because of the value he thinks it will have, these dogs have a reputation and not always the best one. In regards to the additional dogs yes they are ramping up the amount they have at the kennel, but they have a very rigorous process that they go through to get the dogs with the best temperament. I have a mali/gsd mix i got from a recue and he may be going up there for training soon with my friend. Although he did say if he is really good at certain work the kennel will probably offer to buy him from me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Caveat - to the below I'd like to mention....I don't really know the VLK team. I have heard good things about them in recent convos. 

Still sometimes we ignore red flags for all the best reasons.....I dunno.

I hope it works out to the benefit of the team, the dogs .... but the premise and path are setting the odds against that outcome.

It's a done deal and as such there is nothing little ole me can do except hope for the best outcome.

thanks for the thoughtul input on this topic...

Now off to training!! 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Going from approx. 160 dogs to 500 is a significant jump in their _business_ model. Very significant.


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## robk

I think the show looks pretty cool!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Aww heck..admit it, the "guy hook" for the show..it was the Harleys in the trailer ....  



robk said:


> I think the show looks pretty cool!


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## onyx'girl

K-9 cop magazine has been promoting the show in the past couple issues.

Harley's are more than just a 'guy hook' lol!


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## LoveEcho

I'm definitely interested to see it. The kennel I worked at had been in talks with AP about doing a show, but it never went through.... I'm really curious to see how it works out for these guys. I could definitely see it going either way-- either people think "I want one of those cool dogs to bite people I don't like!" or "wow, maybe a Malinois is not for me...."


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## Gwenhwyfair

True true~ But now if they had some beautiful Friesian horses! 



onyx'girl said:


> K-9 cop magazine has been promoting the show in the past couple issues.
> 
> Harley's are more than just a 'guy hook' lol!


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## Gwenhwyfair

deleted. 



> **** Quoted Post was deleted by ADMIN for board rule violations. ****


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## G-burg

> I hope they spend a good part of the time showing how much *TRAINING *goes into getting these dogs to do what they do.
> 
> And how much maintenance work is needed to KEEP them going.


Me too! And that would be much more interesting to me..

I just watched the show and found I had to turn it off... Especially after someone made the comment about wanting "an ass eating dog." :shocked:

Not good for the blood pressure when a show makes you start talking to the TV! And your family thinks you've lost your mind..


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## llombardo

I watched the first two episodes and loved it. I think that most of their dogs go to the military or police, mainly because I can't see to many people paying 50,000 for a dog. If someone is willing to spend this, then I'm sure they make sure its a match for the person. They seem to be pretty stuck on.."if the dog/handler don't get it right, then people die" One of the handlers got bit by their dog, they took the dog to see if the dog would remain or retire. They match these dogs with the handlers and it looks like they train for situations that the dogs will actually be in. There is mostly GSD's and Mals, but they did have a lab and I think that some kind of springer on the next episode.


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## llombardo

G-burg said:


> M
> 
> I just watched the show and found I had to turn it off... Especially after someone made the comment about wanting "an ass eating dog." :shocked:
> 
> Not good for the blood pressure when a show makes you start talking to the TV! And your family thinks you've lost your mind..


Why did you turn it off? That was a cop making reference to finding a dog that would get the bad guy It wasn't just an ordinary person doing a tracking session with a highly trained dog. I don't understand why you were talking to the tv?


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## onyx'girl

These are for military handlers and the dogs cannot back down when threatened, so the ass eating comment makes sense in that context.


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## llombardo

onyx'girl said:


> These are for military handlers and the dogs cannot back down when threatened, so the ass eating comment makes sense in that context.


It made sense to me, I never thought twice about it.


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## robinhuerta

I watched the show.....it is simply just a "show, a program".
It portrays dogs being trained for Military & LEO programs.

People have always had an interest in "what it takes to make a Police or Military K9"...and the show captures some training excercises that are required.
We were invited to watch (privately) a couple of our own dogs that were being trained for LEO....and it was very similar (except for the 6ft building jump)...and that the trainers used drugs instead of explosive scents.
It takes a lot of work! It is very demanding, and MANY dogs do not make the final cut.

The only thing I found annoying on the show is the constant reminder that they had "Military Top Clearances" for doing their work......no need to constantly repeat.

Programs use different breeds of dogs for different jobs......it all depends on the dogs qualities being trained.
I think the show can be educational.....but no matter how much education there is offered in the dog world.....you are still going to find those "special" people, who only want and breed.....REAL DOGS! (insert facetious tone here).....JMHO.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...Good points about the context. Here's where a problem is IMO:

In the trailer one of the trainers said, in a ...well it was a sneering tone of voice...."if you want a 'pet' go to 'petco' ' Like having a dog as a pet is wrong or boring or stupid? Not a cool meme to latch onto given the problems of pet overpopulation and all the dogs which die in shelters. 

It's entirely possible that these trainers support rescue and people who have dogs..to.be.'just'.pets.....but unfortunately the reality format demands drama. That drama can be a real 'turn off' for some. 


Just wait 'til the PETA types get wind of this....too. 





llombardo said:


> Why did you turn it off? That was a cop making reference to finding a dog that would get the bad guy It wasn't just an ordinary person doing a tracking session with a highly trained dog. I don't understand why you were talking to the tv?


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## justde

It was interesting. I know there's alot of apprehension about average people wanting such dogs, trying to train them, etc. but I think that happens regardless of a TV show. I think the handler bite in the weapons testing portion might fuel some wrong fires, and my husband commented that it might make some people realize that not all dogs are fine in any hands. There are people of all sorts with opinions of all sorts, this program won't make or break that. I've seen worse things on tv 
Sue


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## Jag

I had to add channels to my current 'package' in order to watch this show! I didn't finish with the second episode yet. I thought (so far) it was VERY cool to watch!! These aren't just 'trained' dogs, but military and LE dogs. I've always loved to watch them work! :wild: I don't think that a place like this would just buy any dog. They generally have established breeders or brokers they go through....so I'm not too worried about that. My breeder is good about who she sells to and what type of dog she sells to who. My favorite dog of hers... I'll NEVER get a pup from him because he's just way too much dog. His pups only go to select buyers who are fully equipped to handle that type of dog. (Another thing I love about her!) So I don't think that people will be breeding a bunch of byb dogs and selling them to this type of training program. I really like the show, though! 

Maybe I'll see if I can go watch them sometime. They aren't that far from me.


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## llombardo

I don't see anything wrong with taking some of the training they do and training at home...the nosework in the box with the ball is a good example. Its harmless and something that even I could train at home. Sadly I don't have access to a helicopter and I'm afraid of heights, so I guess the sixty foot building is out too


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## Freestep

I haven't seen the show yet.

What I am hoping is that people get the message that:

a) the amount of professional training that goes into these dogs. They don't just magically know how to do this stuff.

b) these dogs are NOT suited for the average pet owner.

c) these are actual WORKING dogs, as opposed to the show dogs everybody is used to seeing on TV. Even a novice can see the difference in looks and conformation, and if working dogs are getting some press, it can help the public understand that there is something out there other than show dogs.


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## KayleeGSD

I loved this show and I hope people become educated about these dogs. If you want to get one you better do your research and learn how to properly handle them. They are different from your regular companion pet. I noticed you did not see any show line GSD only working lines. 

In my case here soon Kaylee will be ready for her evaluation. We are close to getting our proofing done. I swear tennis balls are great for training, lol. I loved how they showed that in the show. I look forward to more episodes too!


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## onyx'girl

> I swear tennis balls are great for training, lol


Tennis balls are cheap....and not good on the teeth. I've never ever given them to my dogs. 
Hope the bad guys don't start carrying tennis balls around, throw the ball and run the other way! 
I remember when I trained with some LEO K9 trainers, they said that is the best way to distract a working dog.


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## Jag

Freestep said:


> I haven't seen the show yet.
> 
> What I am hoping is that people get the message that:
> 
> a) the amount of professional training that goes into these dogs. They don't just magically know how to do this stuff.
> 
> *b) these dogs are NOT suited for the average pet owner.*
> 
> c) these are actual WORKING dogs, as opposed to the show dogs everybody is used to seeing on TV. Even a novice can see the difference in looks and conformation, and if working dogs are getting some press, it can help the public understand that there is something out there other than show dogs.


True, but a lot of us here have this 'type' of GSD!


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## robinhuerta

Many LEO dogs live with their families...they are "real dogs" with a job.
Show line dogs are ALSO used as LEO & Military dogs....it simply depends on each individual dog.

*I would hate to break it to the officers that partner with their SL dogs...that they aren't real dogs.*


----------



## Freestep

Jag said:


> True, but a lot of us here have this 'type' of GSD!


I know, and as I've said about a million times now,  most of the people who post here aren't what I would consider "average pet owners".


----------



## Jag

Freestep said:


> I know, and as I've said about a million times now,  most of the people who post here aren't what I would consider "average pet owners".


Gotcha! :thumbup: Some of us, though *cough* may be considered that by others.


----------



## Freestep

robinhuerta said:


> Many LEO dogs live with their families...they are "real dogs" with a job.
> Show line dogs are ALSO used as LEO & Military dogs....it simply depends on each individual dog.
> 
> *I would hate to break it to the officers that partner with their SL dogs...that they aren't real dogs.*


I don't know if you were responding to my post, but in no way did I say that show dogs aren't "real dogs", or that they can't work. Only that there is a difference in looks and conformation, an alternative to what people are used to seeing. 

Most people don't get to see actual working dogs very often. I just like that working dogs can grab the spotlight for a moment, so people can see a different type. I only hope that people don't get any crazy ideas about getting an "ass eating" working dog to guard their pot grow or whatever.


----------



## robinhuerta

I LOVE the Working Line dogs too....

I am more worried about "the average Joe"....trying to take a tiny bit of "show knowledge" and creating "real ass eating" dogs of their own.......
I would REALLY hate to see the Working Line dog "type" get stereotyped.....as the Show Line already does.


----------



## onyx'girl

FWIW, there were very few GSD's on the show, and I doubt they will be a dominant breed as it keeps airing. I don't think the general audience is going to be biased on the breed and how the stereotypical split affects working because of the show. It is entertainment...and if anything the viewers probably have no clue what is a WL or what is a SL. That goes for the Mals as well. Can anyone tell unless you know the breed whether its a SL or WL? 
I think they are more concerned about not giving secrets away on how to train certain behaviors and the weak spots that could make the dogs vulnerable.


----------



## Bigdogsolo

Having worked along side Military Working dogs and their Handlers for 6 years, I thought the show was interesting and in my opinion I think a general audience will like it becuase it may not be something they have been exposed to.
I also recognize it a TV production and edits will make it look how they want. But again, I liked it. 
THe other difference is Military and LE dog training were the template of the military and thats where the training generally came from. In this day and age, many of those military and LE folks have taken the opportunity to fill an industry need and are now contract or private firms.


----------



## PXDesign

I was a little disappointed in the 1st two episodes. I guess I was hoping for a bit more about how the dogs were trained and a little less about the personalities of the trainers involved. To me, it seemed a bit like "Pawn Stars with Dogs" with the emphasis on the outrageousness of the people over the dogs. Oh well.

What I'm really looking forward to is "Glory Hounds" — the series about the military working dogs in Afghanistan. Apparently the filmmaker got special permission to embed with the MWD teams.


----------



## G-burg

> Why did you turn it off? That was a cop making reference to finding a dog that would get the bad guy


Is that what you think the cops need??? An ass eater?

Maybe a better choice of words should have been "a nice strong, solid dog with the ability to do the job??"

Police K9 departments have enough to worry about just in liability issues...



> I guess I was hoping for a bit more about how the dogs were trained and a little less about the personalities of the trainers involved. To me, it seemed a bit like "Pawn Stars with Dogs" with the emphasis on the outrageousness of the people over the dogs. Oh well.


Exactly!!

But I'm sure we're not going to see all the training that really goes into these dogs..


----------



## llombardo

PXDesign said:


> What I'm really looking forward to is "Glory Hounds" — the series about the military working dogs in Afghanistan. Apparently the filmmaker got special permission to embed with the MWD teams.


Where do you think those dogs in Glory Hounds come from?


----------



## llombardo

G-burg said:


> Is that what you think the cops need??? An ass eater?
> 
> Maybe a better choice of words should have been "a nice strong, solid dog with the ability to do the job??"


The cop saying he wanted an "ass eater" made it more real for me. This is how all the cops I know talk. If he would have been nicer about it, I would have thought it was too fake. But that is just my opinion.


----------



## Mrs.K

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Going from approx. 160 dogs to 500 is a significant jump in their _business_ model. Very significant.


I am pretty sure that these guys have a plan for that. It's not like they are inexperienced or don't know what they are doing. They work in a field of such a high caliber which most of us won't ever get to see nor to work in.




> Originally Posted by G-burg
> Is that what you think the cops need??? An ass eater?
> 
> Maybe a better choice of words should have been "a nice strong, solid dog with the ability to do the job??"


Oh please, not even the working line people I know, talk like that.


----------



## KayleeGSD

onyx'girl said:


> Tennis balls are cheap....and not good on the teeth. I've never ever given them to my dogs.
> Hope the bad guys don't start carrying tennis balls around, throw the ball and run the other way!
> I remember when I trained with some LEO K9 trainers, they said that is the best way to distract a working dog.


Oh yes I know tennis balls can be very dangerous. Some dogs have swallowed them. Others destroy the balls completely and might swallow or eat the bits of ball. For Kaylee the tennis balls were monitored when I used them. When we were done the balls were put up and other toys were offered to keep it interesting. Oh btw we ended up getting rid of the regular tennis balls and got larger balls from Martha Stewart collection, lol. Martha's tennis balls were the size of a softball, lol.  Still the balls were a excellent motivator and a high value reward for Kaylee at that time.


----------



## VaBeachFamily

I missed this show due to not getting this channel... kinda sucks that they aren't putting episodes online.


----------



## Mrs.K

Originally Posted by onyx'girl said:


> Tennis balls are cheap....and not good on the teeth. I've never ever given them to my dogs.
> Hope the bad guys don't start carrying tennis balls around, throw the ball and run the other way!
> I remember when I trained with some LEO K9 trainers, they said that is the best way to distract a working dog..


The reason they use Tennis Balls is because most of these dogs go downrange and it is very easy to replace a Tennis Ball down there. You'll get them anywhere in the world and they are easy to hide and keep. Where as anything else is not as easy to come by. 

I was asking the same question, why they use Tennis Balls instead of other toys and that was the answer I got. 

So there is method behind the Tennis Ball.


----------



## onyx'girl

I know why they use them, they are easily accessable, and cheap~ my point was the dogs will possibly transition to the reward, they are dogs after all! Now if they've never seen a tennis ball and only train on a Gappay, the tennis ball wouldn't be of value...how many bad guys carry around a Gappay LOL!
It was just an observation we had when we were training, interesting conversation.


----------



## justde

PXDesign said:


> I was a little disappointed in the 1st two episodes. I guess I was hoping for a bit more about how the dogs were trained and a little less about the personalities of the trainers involved. To me, it seemed a bit like "Pawn Stars with Dogs" with the emphasis on the outrageousness of the people over the dogs. Oh well.


Remember, this program was produced for the masses, not GSD/working dog enthusiasts.


----------



## Gregc

I thought it was bad tv. I have high hopes for the show. I hope they can do better than the 1st 2 episodes. It looked fast, cheap, and a bit too sensational foe me


----------



## Mrs.K

justde said:


> Remember, this program was produced for the masses, not GSD/working dog enthusiasts.


Exactly, plus they can't give away all their training secrets. There is a reason why they are so successful and giving that away would be bad for business 

Also, I think they packed everything important into the little clips that you can find on the NatGeo Alpha Dog website. There is also an interview by the director about the dog PTSD Female that had to be re-placed. 

It gives away a lot of information, if you are willing to watch and listen between the lines. I think it's a good show.


----------



## justde

onyx'girl said:


> I know why they use them, they are easily accessable, and cheap~ my point was the dogs will possibly transition to the reward, they are dogs after all!


I'd say not these dogs...Lazer, well, all my dogs, could care less about a toy when doing bitework. I'd say a toy would have less value to these dogs


----------



## PXDesign

llombardo said:


> Where do you think those dogs in Glory Hounds come from?


I understand that, but I'm hoping there's more about the dogs and the handlers' relationships and less script trying to play up the outrageousness of the characters.


----------



## martemchik

Yeah I noticed that too...when the dogs were going for a bite, they could care less about a tennis ball. It took so much work for the handler to get the dog to settle down after that bite...

I actually liked the show. I think they really pointed out some things about dog training that are very important. After the handler got bit, they explained why they didn't believe the dog was a bad dog and why the handler made a mistake. I thought the part about selling it to the other officer was very comical though...they made a huge deal about the dog doing a 100 yard track. Don't get me wrong, it was impressive, but they just kept going on and on about how that would never happen unless they were meant to be...very salesman.

I thought the part about scent association was really cool...any one can do that with their dogs just like that and it would be a really cool way to train your dog for any scent.

I really didn't expect them to give any kind of bite work training lessons...and I don't expect it in the future. I can just imagine the lawsuits after "well that's how they taught it on ALPHA DOGS." I think the show is just going to show the public how great these dogs can be if the right amount of work is put into them, and I know its obvious to most people but they have to realize that they train these dogs 8 hours or more a day, every day and not just the 1 or 2 the rest of the world might get with their dogs (if they use them for that).

I don't know these guy's ethics...but I'm sure they'll sell some of their "lesser quality" dogs to the public. And after the show those dogs will have a huge price tag...but at least people will be able to say they got their dog from the kennel on Alpha Dogs. They did state that if that lab didn't work out as a bomb sniffing dog they would place him in a pet home...so I'm sure they do it quite often...just now there will be demand for not just the washouts.


----------



## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> Yeah I noticed that too...when the dogs were going for a bite, they could care less about a tennis ball. It took so much work for the handler to get the dog to settle down after that bite...


I'm not talking about during bitework, of course that is higher value, I'm talking about when a dog is searching out a suspect. Our conversation had to do with that, and if the suspect threw a ball to distract the dog.


----------



## martemchik

onyx'girl said:


> I'm not talking about during bitework, of course that is higher value, I'm talking about when a dog is searching out a suspect. Our conversation had to do with that, and if the suspect threw a ball to distract the dog.


My assumption is that if the dog sees the ball come from the suspect he must see the suspect? And if he sees the suspect I'm betting the dog is probably already in chase mode rather than track mode? Who knows...

I'm sure there are safeguards against it...I've been watching and training with Ivan Balabanov's methods and the dog has a word it needs to hear first before going after the reward...I've trained my dog to do this...he loves a tennis ball but until I give him the release he won't go after it (unless we're in play).


----------



## Jag

Jane, I had the same thought! I was wondering why they'd use such a readily available item to 'transition' the dog. I guess it could well be trained not to go after a ball coming from just anywhere. I did like that they blurred the faces of the soldiers. I didn't really want to have to increase my satellite bill to watch this one show... BUT, it turns out it's worth it! Even my wife liked watching it. I did get to see working military dogs once on base when they had a 'show' for the soldiers and families. They were VERY specific, though, with directions to the spectators before it. THAT was when my love of the 'working' GSD was born!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Two things:

1) I really, really do *not* want to impugn this kennel in any way. However, in a general sense, if this were in the breeder section you know darn well folks would be saying 'red flag' about the number of dogs.

Now does this mean a kennel *any kennel* is 100% incapable of maintaining high quality, absolutely not.

Does it equate to a greater possibility (more points of failure just looking at it from a purely statistical POV) .... yes.

2) If these were widgets and not dogs....as a _business person_ I'd be all over this new product. 






Mrs.K said:


> I am pretty sure that these guys have a plan for that. It's not like they are inexperienced or don't know what they are doing. They work in a field of such a high caliber which most of us won't ever get to see nor to work in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snipped>


----------



## Mrs.K

Guys, what matters is that the trainer wanted to see the dog switch from one mode into another. 

The dog you saw in the ball game was a dual purpose dog. First he apprehended the suspect and then he wanted to see the dog switch out of that to search for Explosives. If the dog is still with the suspect instead of switching out of that, he's not going to search for explosives the way he should. That was the whole point of the exercise and to train the handler how to do that. 

It's all about switching from the bite to searching explosives. It's about calming her down and clear her mind. That is why they bring out the tennis ball. They taught the handler how to use the ball to calm the dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Agreed and it's the unfortunate and formulaic problem with 'reality shows' and it appeals to many people. Showing the nitty gritty work it takes to accomplish a well trained dog is rather boring for a general audience.

I participated in dressage, which at the lower levels is like watching paint dry on the wall, unless you are truly passionate about the horses and sport. Most people were not...same I think with dogs and the hard and sometimes repetitive work it takes to train dogs to be exceptional at their jobs.




PXDesign said:


> I was a little disappointed in the 1st two episodes. I guess I was hoping for a bit more about how the dogs were trained and a little less about the personalities of the trainers involved. To me, *it seemed a bit like "Pawn Stars with Dogs" with the emphasis on the outrageousness of the people over the dogs*. Oh well.
> 
> What I'm really looking forward to is "Glory Hounds" — the series about the military working dogs in Afghanistan. Apparently the filmmaker got special permission to embed with the MWD teams.


----------



## Witz

I thought they did a good job of showing some of the examples of training and developing the dogs who have to perform these jobs. Not that it is rocket science, but Military and Law enforcement dogs are trained with similar but different methods then Sport Protection dogs. The person who does not participate in those areas has little to no idea as to what needs to be achieved to be put a dog in the field. So, again, I thought they did a reasonable job, despite the production aspects.

On another note I read some very complimentry statements on a Facebook page from a number of people who have had direct experience with this Kennel and their trainers. Additionally, they do sell dogs to the general public and yes they are probably a number of dogs that just don't have what it takes. I got the impression that the Mals, GSD's go to sport homes for the most part, the labs and cockers, well can go to anyone.


----------



## onyx'girl

Bumping up...reminder of tonight's upcoming episode/critique away!!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Got it on dvr...I'll give it one more chance....but funny thing happened on the way to the forum...

I mentioned to my SO I have to watch it on dvr tonight and he said .... "I saw that show the other night, I thought it was about dogs and it was one guy on a harley and the other guy drinkin' beer so I changed the channel"



He's not a Harley guy, he's more of an "Old Yankee Workshop" guy.... coveting the latest-greatest wood working tools. 







onyx'girl said:


> Bumping up...reminder of tonight's upcoming episode/critique away!!


----------



## Guardyan

The foot! Oh, the foot!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

What is this in reference to?



Guardyan said:


> The foot! Oh, the foot!


----------



## Nigel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What is this in reference to?


They used a human foot to demo a cadaver cocker spaniel.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks. 

Gotta wait to catch up we have one TV and SO is watching...This Old House...  





Nigel said:


> They used a human foot to demo a cadaver cocker spaniel.


----------



## Mrs.K

Nigel said:


> They used a human foot to demo a cadaver cocker spaniel.


What I do like is th that they are using breeds like Cocker Spaniels, etc. to show that these dogs actually do have a working capability. :wub:


----------



## llombardo

PXDesign said:


> I understand that, but I'm hoping there's more about the dogs and the handlers' relationships and less script trying to play up the outrageousness of the characters.


I don't know about anybody else, but I like these guys. I don't think there is anything outrageous about them. They are normal people like everyone else, they just ride harleys and come across as bad boys, but they are good with the dogs(from what I can see).


----------



## Mrs.K

llombardo said:


> I don't know about anybody else, but I like these guys. I don't think there is anything outrageous about them. They are normal people like everyone else, they just ride harleys and come across as bad boys, but they are good with the dogs(from what I can see).


Honestly. They are real people. No messing around. And if you are involved with the military or police you cross that type of personality on a daily basis. Loud, Real, Black Humor.

I prefer those type of people over anyone with a stick stuck up their behind. Plus they say how it is. Nothing outrageous about that.


----------



## Nigel

llombardo said:


> I don't know about anybody else, but I like these guys. I don't think there is anything outrageous about them. They are normal people like everyone else, they just ride harleys and come across as bad boys, but they are good with the dogs(from what I can see).





Mrs.K said:


> Honestly. They are real people. No messing around. And if you are involved with the military or police you cross that type of personality on a daily basis. Loud, Real, Black Humor.
> 
> I prefer those type of people over anyone with a stick stuck up their behind. Plus they say how it is. Nothing outrageous about that.


They seem normal to me. I'm a vet and everyone I work with is to, I see nothing outrageous about them.

On a different note, I was reading an article about "Glory Hounds" and I was surprised to hear they tend to use a lot of females for working in Afghanistan. They said their more cautious nature was more desirable while looking for IED and such. Thought that was interesting.


----------



## volcano

Almost nobody knows there is such a thing as showline and working line. Even me, I was looking into a rott or a aussie cattle dog. Well I figured out that rotts are discriminated against? And teh aussie rescue could screw off with their excessive questions and 300 dollars for a stray. I was impressed that most of the gsd had ofa and shutz etc... Im glad I skipped those litters and stumbled into working lines and have such a stable puppy. Lots of work ahead though...

I dont like the show, but ill dvr it and watch it until its intolerable- aka gold rush.


----------



## Mooch

Darn I watched a couple of trailers on the Nat Geo site and this looks interesting - just not available in AUS and not avaialbe on DVD - bummer


----------



## onyx'girl

They have a fb page, and said it can be downloaded thru iTunes.
https://www.facebook.com/AlphaDogsShow?fref=ts


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Episode 6 coming up, check info - KC contemplates leaving.....


----------



## PXDesign

So I saw the 3rd and 4th episodes yesterday and thought they were much better than the first two. Perhaps the initial episodes needed to introduce the "characters" and the director thought that the outrageousness was the angle to play up. In any case, I thought the most recent episodes did a nice job of showing the dogs, some of the training, and the handlers. I'm hoping it keeps going this direction.

BTW - it looks like Glory Hounds premiers on 2/21 here in the US.


----------



## PXDesign

Nigel said:


> On a different note, I was reading an article about "Glory Hounds" and I was surprised to hear they tend to use a lot of females for working in Afghanistan. They said their more cautious nature was more desirable while looking for IED and such. Thought that was interesting.


Do you have a link to the article?


----------



## Nigel

PXDesign said:


> Do you have a link to the article?


Glory Hounds on Animal Planet; Killing Lincoln on National Geographic; Southland on TNT: TV Reviews by Nancy deWolf Smith - WSJ.com

I read another, but can't seem to find it. This one mentions the use of females in the 4th paragraph. I'll try to find the other.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I plan on checking it out. 

btw somewhat related - I have signed and shared the petition that MWD dogs should not be treated as "excess equipment", I didn't see any update here...it passed on 12/6 and looks like it will be signed into law! Congress passes an important bill to help Military Working Dogs ? MWD?s - Seattle Pets | Examiner.com

I will also be watching (when I have time) the non-dog related show 'Combat Rescue' on Nat Geo about airmen who chopper in to save wounded soldiers. Brave souls.



PXDesign said:


> So I saw the 3rd and 4th episodes yesterday and thought they were much better than the first two. Perhaps the initial episodes needed to introduce the "characters" and the director thought that the outrageousness was the angle to play up. In any case, I thought the most recent episodes did a nice job of showing the dogs, some of the training, and the handlers. I'm hoping it keeps going this direction.
> 
> BTW - *it looks like Glory Hounds premiers on 2/21 here in the US*.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Question, honest question...why do they (or anyone else for that matter) have to come across as bad boys?

I've been reading Mrs. Ks comments regarding what is happening to Schutzhund in Germany (of all places!) and it makes me wonder why tie in with what are admittedly negative public perceptions to the working dogs here in the U.S.? 

I see a correlation between this 'if you want pet go to petco' thing and some of the threads going on in the schutzhund forum.



llombardo said:


> I don't know about anybody else, but I like these guys. I don't think there is anything outrageous about them. They are normal people like everyone else, they just ride harleys and come across as bad boys, but they are good with the dogs(from what I can see).


----------



## martemchik

I don't see an issue with it...anyone working their dogs in bite work has a bit of a bravado about them. Schutzhund people (and I don't mean this in a bad way at all) have a swagger about them because they're teaching their dogs something much more involved than the regular pet owner and something that does make their dog pretty bad-ass IMO. These guys are training their dogs to be life-savers, police dogs, military dogs...pretty awesome. Of course they think they're "the ****" in the same way that many of our countries CEO's and people making 7+ figures act in the same way.

These guys have a bunch of dogs that take down human beings, find bombs, ect. If I were training dogs like that, I'd have some "bad" about me as well.

Also...the comment about their kennel and the size...I don't know if they're actually breeding all these dogs. Seems like they'd have to get more than a few from outside breeders just to fill some of those quotas. They also have such differences in lines/breeds that they'd have to be looking else where for dogs. They're not just a breeding kennel, they're a training kennel...and make most of their money from the training aspect and not the puppy producing part.


----------



## onyx'girl

I read a comment on another board that this kennel is going to give their competition business if they continue with the show in the way its being represented.


----------



## flynbyu2

I've seen four episodes of the show and think it's great.

I also know and respect Ken Licklider. He teaches classes at a K9 seminar I attend every year; the content of his classes is second to none.

They sell numerous breeds of dogs through his kennel. They choose the dog by it's capability, not it's breed.

Also in regards to cost for law enforcement and obtaining dogs, the initial price of the dog is the *cheapest* part of the equation.

A typical K9 vehicle is over $40,000 fully outfitted. 
Each K9 handler receives an animal stipend
We invest countless hours (both on working days and days off) in keeping the dogs up to speed in their abilities. 

Also, law enforcement has numerous grants available to them to receive dogs for free. 

My department received 4 fully trained Explosive Detection dogs from a company called Pups for Peace. The grant was made to the Department of Homeland Security and included fully outfitted K9 vehicles.

I think Mr Lickliders show is great and I plan on never missing an episode.


----------



## Debbieg

flynbyu2 said:


> I've seen four episodes of the show and think it's great.
> 
> I also know and respect Ken Licklider. He teaches classes at a K9 seminar I attend every year; the content of his classes is second to none.
> 
> They sell numerous breeds of dogs through his kennel. They choose the dog by it's capability, not it's breed.
> 
> Also in regards to cost for law enforcement and obtaining dogs, the initial price of the dog is the *cheapest* part of the equation.
> 
> A typical K9 vehicle is over $40,000 fully outfitted.
> Each K9 handler receives an animal stipend
> We invest countless hours (both on working days and days off) in keeping the dogs up to speed in their abilities.
> 
> Also, law enforcement has numerous grants available to them to receive dogs for free.
> 
> My department received 4 fully trained Explosive Detection dogs from a company called Pups for Peace. The grant was made to the Department of Homeland Security and included fully outfitted K9 vehicles.
> 
> I think Mr Lickliders show is great and I plan on never missing an episode.



This! I also like how the show uses different breeds.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

With all due respect, at the end of episode four one of the fellows told us what part of his anatomy gets happy after watching an explosion.

While these gentlemen may be top notch trainers you must agree that is unprofessional at the very least.

Please also consider the flack Cesar Milan has taken over the years and he deals almost exclusively with rescues which one would think would at least soften the criticism.

I think these gentlemen have obviously done great work in the past and are also smart businessmen but there is a downside to the 15 minutes of fame.

The producers keep running the trailer of 'If you wanna pet go to petco' over and over, consider how that plays with the public. 

At the end of episode 4 I'm wondering how Cheyenne can be helped and what the back story to the pittie mix is and it ends as described above. 

I'm tuning this one out.

BTW I'm very disappointed in Nat Geo as well and think they are part of the problem here. 



flynbyu2 said:


> I've seen four episodes of the show and think it's great.
> 
> I also know and respect Ken Licklider. He teaches classes at a K9 seminar I attend every year; the content of his classes is second to none.
> 
> They sell numerous breeds of dogs through his kennel. They choose the dog by it's capability, not it's breed.
> 
> Also in regards to cost for law enforcement and obtaining dogs, the initial price of the dog is the *cheapest* part of the equation.
> 
> A typical K9 vehicle is over $40,000 fully outfitted.
> Each K9 handler receives an animal stipend
> We invest countless hours (both on working days and days off) in keeping the dogs up to speed in their abilities.
> 
> Also, law enforcement has numerous grants available to them to receive dogs for free.
> 
> My department received 4 fully trained Explosive Detection dogs from a company called Pups for Peace. The grant was made to the Department of Homeland Security and included fully outfitted K9 vehicles.
> 
> I think Mr Lickliders show is great and I plan on never missing an episode.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

My understanding is they do *not* breed...

Cheyenne the PTSD dog on the show had already been working in Afghanistan and was being reassigned (episode 4)


My guess is they have a contract with the DoD (in addition to other client bases such as LE)...what I don't understand is with the draw down in Iraq and Afghanistan where's the demand going to be coming from? 

Whether you like the show or not you must admit that's a fair question.




martemchik said:


> I don't see an issue with it...anyone working their dogs in bite work has a bit of a bravado about them. Schutzhund people (and I don't mean this in a bad way at all) have a swagger about them because they're teaching their dogs something much more involved than the regular pet owner and something that does make their dog pretty bad-ass IMO. These guys are training their dogs to be life-savers, police dogs, military dogs...pretty awesome. Of course they think they're "the ****" in the same way that many of our countries CEO's and people making 7+ figures act in the same way.
> 
> These guys have a bunch of dogs that take down human beings, find bombs, ect. If I were training dogs like that, I'd have some "bad" about me as well.
> 
> Also...the comment about their kennel and the size...I don't know if they're actually breeding all these dogs. Seems like they'd have to get more than a few from outside breeders just to fill some of those quotas. They also have such differences in lines/breeds that they'd have to be looking else where for dogs. They're not just a breeding kennel, they're a training kennel...and make most of their money from the training aspect and not the puppy producing part.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup and I heard some negative comments while training last week. 

Just wait 'til the PETA people get involved. 





onyx'girl said:


> I read a comment on another board that this kennel is going to give their competition business if they continue with the show in the way its being represented.


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## Galathiel

I've recorded the shows and have watched the first few. I enjoyed a good bit of it. But ....the one thing I REALLY didn't like is when one of the guys said "these dogs are tools. If you want a pet, go to Petco." Now, I understand these dogs have jobs. But they are still living breathing animals and not just tools. I did not care for that comment .. at all.


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## martemchik

So everyone's issue with this show seems to be the guys and what they say and not the actual programing. So they say some stupid stuff and the producers blow it out of proportion (like the statement about the security clearances, why is that included in the intro?). I'm sure these guys aren't that happy with some of the stuff they're seeing get advertised and repeated over and over on the show...but at the end of the day its a TV show.

The first "reality work" show was American Chopper. I've watched the "making of" it and the producers said they really wanted to focus on the bikes. After the show came out, and they included some of the family drama, the response was way more towards that stuff than the actual building of the bikes. So this is why these shows focus on the human element...more people will watch. You'll still get us (the dog people) to watch because of the dogs, but you need a bigger audience for the show to survive.

For example...anyone that watched the "fight" between the father and son...so overblown and unnecessary. They built that issue up all episode from the beginning and then at the end the dad apologizes and everyone is happy.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's not the only issue I've mentioned and others have mentioned other concerns, some have tried to redirect and make it seem personal when it's not.

I think you ask a fair question though.

IMO part of the problem is these are serious dogs doing serious work. To focus too much on 'characterization' of the trainers/owners does a disservice to subject matter. For me personally it's also boring. I want to learn more about the dogs not the fake drama between KC and the cop.

I have never given a thought to Bachelor/ette shows or Survivor Island and what not because hey...it's all kefluffery and just not my cup of tea.

One thing I've learned getting involved in protection sports is most (not all mind you) but most people who are truly committed to these type of dogs do tend to be serious about the sport and dogs so this is just the nature of the situation being created.

In addition to the other concerns I wonder if this is just a bad decision on the part of Nat Geo and the kennel in mixing apples and oranges in this format. 

Also, fwiw I've NOT mentioned anything technically about the training as I do not feel I am qualified to critique that aspect. I can guarantee you, however, that type of critique is happening and will continue to happen. 

If you think people are hard on Ceasar Milan or V. Stillwell just wait. 

btw- *I'm just the messenger here, this was all pretty darn predictable given the format*.

This kennel is going to get feedback, it's bound to happen. Some of it will be fair, some of it won't.

I wonder if Petco likes this or not? I really don't know, could be good attention but petco does not sell dogs/kittens.

Anyhoo...As for me, I gave it a chance, 4 episodes, it doesn't appeal to me. Too much kerfluffery about the people, dramtic bits that look totally fake, not enough about the dogs. Back to my nerdy Micheal Ellis DVDs and Sheila Booth SchH OB book.  




martemchik said:


> So everyone's issue with this show seems to be the guys and what they say and not the actual programing. So they say some stupid stuff and the producers blow it out of proportion (like the statement about the security clearances, why is that included in the intro?). I'm sure these guys aren't that happy with some of the stuff they're seeing get advertised and repeated over and over on the show...but at the end of the day its a TV show.
> 
> The first "reality work" show was American Chopper. I've watched the "making of" it and the producers said they really wanted to focus on the bikes. After the show came out, and they included some of the family drama, the response was way more towards that stuff than the actual building of the bikes. So this is why these shows focus on the human element...more people will watch. You'll still get us (the dog people) to watch because of the dogs, but you need a bigger audience for the show to survive.
> 
> For example...anyone that watched the "fight" between the father and son...so overblown and unnecessary. They built that issue up all episode from the beginning and then at the end the dad apologizes and everyone is happy.


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## Gwenhwyfair

One more thought, when I started this thread I really did *not* have a firm opinion one way or the other (concerns yes, but I was open to giving it all a chance).

Based on the show and what I'm reading here I do think a lot of you are right that this will *not *cause a problem with WL dogs becoming too popular with the general public. 

I do think the show gives in way too much to the unfortunate aspect of many reality shows where it highlights ...well.. lets just say the wrong or less flattering aspects which have little or nothing to do with the dogs.

I do wonder about going from 160 to 400 dogs. I asked if this was a normal kennel size for this type of operation (again to be fair) and it looks like it's not.

IMO those who know the people at the kennel, I understand why they don't like the criticism of their friends, but these guys made a choice to proceed with this program. Perhaps listening to feedback can help them tweak, improve or even push back on the producers on some aspects.


Not all criticism is bad.......or meant with ill intent.


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## SueDoNimm

martemchik said:


> Yeah I noticed that too...when the dogs were going for a bite, they could care less about a tennis ball. It took so much work for the handler to get the dog to settle down after that bite...


I imagine it's kind of like my dog showing zero interest in treats if there's a ball around. I would hope part of their training would be to focus on their target even if someone throws out a ball, so that criminals carrying around tennis balls wouldn't be much of an issue. I do that with my dog just working on his stay and down. 

I've been watching the show, but they show too much of the trainers and stuff I don't care about and not enough of the dogs.


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## volcano

I was looking forward to the show but am hugely unimpressed. An episode of pawnstars with someone selling a "police"dog would be more entertaining.


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## Nigel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It's not the only issue I've mentioned and others have mentioned other concerns, some have tried to redirect and make it seem personal when it's not.
> 
> I think you ask a fair question though.
> 
> IMO part of the problem is these are serious dogs doing serious work. *To focus too much on 'characterization' of the trainers/owners does a disservice to subject matter. For me personally it's also boring. I want to learn more about the dogs not the fake drama between KC and the cop.*
> 
> *I have never given a thought to Bachelor/ette shows or Survivor Island and what not because hey...it's all kefluffery and just not my cup of tea.*
> 
> One thing I've learned getting involved in protection sports is most (not all mind you) but most people who are truly committed to these type of dogs do tend to be serious about the sport and dogs so this is just the nature of the situation being created.
> 
> In addition to the other concerns I wonder if this is just a bad decision on the part of Nat Geo and the kennel in mixing apples and oranges in this format.
> 
> Also, fwiw I've NOT mentioned anything technically about the training as I do not feel I am qualified to critique that aspect. I can guarantee you, however, that type of critique is happening and will continue to happen.
> 
> If you think people are hard on Ceasar Milan or V. Stillwell just wait.
> 
> btw- *I'm just the messenger here, this was all pretty darn predictable given the format*.
> 
> This kennel is going to get feedback, it's bound to happen. Some of it will be fair, some of it won't.
> 
> I wonder if Petco likes this or not? I really don't know, could be good attention but petco does not sell dogs/kittens.
> 
> Anyhoo...As for me, I gave it a chance, 4 episodes, it doesn't appeal to me. Too much kerfluffery about the people, dramtic bits that look totally fake, not enough about the dogs. Back to my nerdy Micheal Ellis DVDs and Sheila Booth SchH OB book.


I could do without the (bold part) as well. More dogs and training, less drama.


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## bigd3077

I like it. They seem like my people, and they work and train dogs. I would have a cold beer with them anytime...


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## Capone22

bigd3077 said:


> I like it. They seem like my people, and they work and train dogs. I would have a cold beer with them anytime...


That's how I feel. You have to expect some of the dumb drama stuff. The producers make that happen. But its still fun to watch the dogs. And I think the guys seem fun and really enjoy what they are doing. I will be watching the whole series for sure.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> With all due respect, at the end of episode four one of the fellows told us what part of his anatomy gets happy after watching an explosion.
> 
> While these gentlemen may be top notch trainers you must agree that is unprofessional at the very least.
> 
> Please also consider the flack Cesar Milan has taken over the years and he deals almost exclusively with rescues which one would think would at least soften the criticism.
> 
> I think these gentlemen have obviously done great work in the past and are also smart businessmen but there is a downside to the 15 minutes of fame.
> 
> The producers keep running the trailer of 'If you wanna pet go to petco' over and over, consider how that plays with the public.
> 
> At the end of episode 4 I'm wondering how Cheyenne can be helped and what the back story to the pittie mix is and it ends as described above.
> 
> I'm tuning this one out.
> 
> BTW I'm very disappointed in Nat Geo as well and think they are part of the problem here.


Lol..you clearly have never been in or around Military or LE people. This is a tame version of how they communicate. They are'nt vanilla, and the reason they have a show and are considered interesting enough to watch is because they aren't vanilla. Most people expect that men with such a background engaged in the venue of training high drive LE and military k9s to talk like this and be colorful in character. They are clearly uninterested in sounding politically correct of putting forward that type of exterior, thats not who they are quite clearly. 
As for their kennel size increasing Im assuming the demand for their dogs will have just skyrocketed so i see no issue with that. Their are kennels that just train gun dogs for hunting that have a 500 dog capacity. I dont think these guys are idiots. They have clearly increased capacity to meet demand. 
These guys are clearly knowledgable when it comes to training dogs and have colorful personalities. Thats why people want to watch them. If you were looking for a how to train a working dog type show I think you will be dissapointed.

fyi: Their market as in customers, police, military, private contractors will not be concerned over their colorful language. What usually matters to these types are RESULTS. You are known for having intense bada** dogs you get the customers and referrals.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I worked for a DoD contractor, worked with active and retired military on the job, have some LEO friends...and yeah they may have more 'colorful' language 'off the job' ....but generally I found them to be very professional, dedicated and yes serious about their jobs.

I admired them greatly for their loyalty too, best guys to work with, *ever* and I mean that.

Anyways, too much about the 'guys' and the fake confrontations, blowing up stuff, expensive looking 'toys' like 4 wheelers and motorcycles not enough info on the dogs. 

*They switched from dog business to show business*.....and now are trying to appeal to a different audience.. and hunting for good ratings. I don't think the formula is going to work...but I could be wrong, Neilsen will tell.





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol..you clearly have never been in or around Military or LE people. This is a tame version of how they communicate. They are'nt vanilla, and the reason they have a show and are considered interesting enough to watch is because they aren't vanilla. Most people expect that men with such a background engaged in the venue of training high drive LE and military k9s to talk like this and be colorful in character. They are clearly uninterested in sounding politically correct of putting forward that type of exterior, thats not who they are quite clearly.
> As for their kennel size increasing Im assuming the demand for their dogs will have just skyrocketed so i see no issue with that. Their are kennels that just train gun dogs for hunting that have a 500 dog capacity. I dont think these guys are idiots. They have clearly increased capacity to meet demand.
> These guys are clearly knowledgable when it comes to training dogs and have colorful personalities. Thats why people want to watch them. If you were looking for a how to train a working dog type show I think you will be dissapointed.
> 
> fyi: Their market as in customers, police, military, private contractors will not be concerned over their colorful language. What usually matters to these types are RESULTS. You are known for having intense bada** dogs you get the customers and referrals.


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## Crkwolf

I like the show. In my opinion, it's a reality show plain and simple, so there will be stupid drama. Did I care to see or know the plot about the son's girlfriend moving away, nope. What I did enjoy seeing was the dogs. I like to watch them work, I find it fascinating. Is there a risk that people will run out and get Mals, GSD that have no business getting them? Sure, just like the Chihuahua's after the Taco Bell commercial. Irresponsible of people, yes. I have a co-worker who has a GSD and a small yard and doesn't know much about the breed and its needs. I shake my head and tell her, keep that dog mentally stimulated.... To me Alpha Dogs is a show and I don't take it that seriously and watch for the entertainment.


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