# Inbreeding concerns



## ralphkaz (Apr 23, 2005)

Have been searching for a WGSL pup for a few weeks and came across a 'home' breeder that is our #1 choice right now. Pups where just born. I looked on the pedigree DB and found another litter/pup from the same parents (link below). I'm a bit concerned about the inbreeding coefficients - they seem a bit higher than most other dogs I've looked at but I really have no idea how to interpret these numbers. I know you want less than 10% for sure but what impact does having 4 dogs common on each parents side? 

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Sigal's Bonnie


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

average inbreeding co-efficient is less than 4 in this breed. I would ask the breeder what they hoped to accomplish in this pairing?

that level of linebreeding can be either good or bad. it will bring out any recessives that are lurking in the DNA. on the plus side, it is a common way to set type in a bloodline.


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## ralphkaz (Apr 23, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> average inbreeding co-efficient is less than 4 in this breed. I would ask the breeder what they hoped to accomplish in this pairing?
> 
> that level of linebreeding can be either good or bad. it will bring out any recessives that are lurking in the DNA. on the plus side, it is a common way to set type in a bloodline.


The breeder only does around 1-2 litters each year. These 2 dogs (parents) are the main dogs they own. In prior litters I believe the female was also bred with a few different males (that they did not own). 

We will be going to look at both the pups and parents this coming weekend. The pups will only be 2 weeks old at that time. If there were any negative recessive genes I imagine they would not be obvious until much later, correct? What should my level of concern be? Should I be looking elsewhere? On the plus side - the 2 males in the lineage with the high coefficients are highly titled dogs...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ask the breeder about the dog that is bred 2-3. What does she like about the dog. What does he produce. What is she hoping to produce with the pairing.


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## ralphkaz (Apr 23, 2005)

selzer said:


> Ask the breeder about the dog that is bred 2-3. What does she like about the dog. What does he produce. What is she hoping to produce with the pairing.


OK, will do. Would there be any obvious signs to watch for with the pups (for negative genes coming out)?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ralphkaz said:


> OK, will do. Would there be any obvious signs to watch for with the pups (for negative genes coming out)?


German Shepherds are prone to many genetic conditions/diseases. Most are in ALL the lines. So it is hard to completely get away from them. Many are polygenic, where the sire or dam does not need to have the condition to produce the condition. The breed has a lot of health concerns, and not all of them are considered genetic, but probably are, like bloat -- the shape of the torso does play a part, and therefore it is more likely in some lines than others. But some definitely are genetic, and have not been bred out of different lines. 

So, when we breed an uncle to a niece, 2-3 or breeding, we are actually duplicating some genes, and making it more likely to produce a condition that requires a carrier on both sides. Sire gives 50% of the genes, and so does the dam, so there is no guaranty that both sisters or brothers carried or passed down a specific gene. Much better to breed a dog to its Aunt/Uncle than to its sire/dam (1-2) , because of the posibililty is much greater in a 1-2 of passing on those recessives. But a 2-3 breeding, which for a long time was acceptable in Germany (I think it is now 3-3, but don't quote me on that). 

There are good traits that you would like to bring out in pups also, and breeding closely -- 3-3 or 2-3, on a dog that has a trait that you are looking to improve, is not necessarily a bad thing. The thing is, there should be a reason for doing. The reason should not be because we own the sire and dam. That may be true. Sharing a great-grandfather (3-3) is fine, if it is an exceptional dog, and you want to see that dog coming out in the puppies. See what I mean? 2-3 is tight. A great-grandsire is also a grandsire. To breed that closely, you want to know as much as possible about that dog or dogs. 

Breeding close does not create problems, but what recessives are present, are a lot more likely to come out when you reduce the gene pool.


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