# Spartanville or Sequoyah kennel



## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

I have narrowed it down to 2 breeders, does anyone own a dog from either one of these kennels? It is a hard choice for me. Can some one give me their opinions about either one of these kennels.

Thanks!!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know either personally, but I would pick Sequoyah because they work, train, and title their dogs. As far as I know, the Spartanville dogs are ones that were purchased to be bred, not as working or competition dogs. Several people who own and breed Sequoyah dogs are active in SDA and Schutzhund.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, Sequoyah! But look at what Spartanville is breeding, the lines/breeding match may be worth checking out just for comparison before you do decide... 
I personally want to support a breeder that is involved in training so they understand the dog they are breeding instead of just looking at pedigree matching.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'd do some more thinking about what it is you want. Aside from the fact that you can get a dark sable from both, their breeding programs are pretty different.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

I am not sure if Spatanville still has him, but they had a dog named Puck that I absolutely love. He is DDR I believe and just beautiful! But I do not know either I just liked the looks of him.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Danielle609 said:


> I am not sure if Spatanville still has him, but they had a dog named Puck that I absolutely love. He is DDR I believe and just beautiful! But I do not know either I just liked the looks of him.


I believe Puck is retired.


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## lafalce (Jan 16, 2001)

I thought Spartanville was done with breeding. Is she back in business?????


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes Puck is retired and I believe Connie just imported some nice looking dogs. I do agree with what someone said earlier. 2 different breeding programs and how they operate. Find the best match for you.

good luck.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

There are some members on here who have Sequoyah dogs. You might want to pm them or post in the "Sequoyah" thread. 

What exactly do you plan to do with your GSD? One breeder may produce pups better for the job or jobs. 

I have some experience with Sequoyah myself, but I did not purchase from them. I have a reserve on a Connie litter, which from what I hear and read turned out to be an awesome litter. It's a shame I missed out on it. 

I cancelled my reserve, but had good experience with them. I talked to Shari and Sherle and they're both nice and are knowledgeable about their dogs and what they are producing. 

You should check the testimonies of both Spartanville and Sequoyah. Find the litter or litters that produced what you are looking for and make your judgement there.

Good luck!


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Why have you narrowed it down to these two breeders? What about the dogs that they're breeding made you come to your decision? I'd answer those questions and pick the litter that interests you more.


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

GSD Fan said:


> There are some members on here who have Sequoyah dogs. You might want to pm them or post in the "Sequoyah" thread.
> 
> What exactly do you plan to do with your GSD? One breeder may produce pups better for the job or jobs.
> 
> ...



why did you cancel your reserve?


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I don't know either personally, but I would pick Sequoyah because they work, train, and title their dogs. As far as I know, the Spartanville dogs are ones that were purchased to be bred, not as working or competition dogs. Several people who own and breed Sequoyah dogs are active in SDA and Schutzhund.


what do you mean by this? i have seen both sires and dams pedigree from both litters and they both have titled sires and dams. Are you advising me that spartanville pups are just mainly for companion dogs?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I mean is, my understanding is that the Spartanville breeder purchases titled dogs to breed them, not for training and competing herself and does not train or title dogs. I have met several people who own and train Sequoyah dogs and have seen several of these dogs in action. I have never met anyone who trains a Spartanville dog nor have I seen one in training or competition. I'm not saying they are bad dogs or can't do it, but my priority is a working line dog that can work, so before I buy a dog I'd like to see what the dogs can do and what the owner/breeder has accomplished with them, not that they were titled so that they could be sold and bred and then bred based on those titles and pedigree alone. I look at the actual dogs, not just the pedigrees or one-time titles.

Also like others have said even if you are just going based on pedigree alone, these are VERY different pedigrees, very different types of dogs. If you have a certain type in mind, that should make up the decision for you.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Sequoyah is active in working and titling - not just holding the leash.

They also work on different fields - we had a "family reunion" in Jan and Gabor was able to work their dogs - very nice.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

A friend of mine owned a dog from Spartanville -already titled she used to allow me to hold the leash and take it to schutzhund training-she was a fun dog very well trained-personally I would not ask other people which breeder I should pick but thats just me


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I am in love with the look of Spartanville shepherds, but it depends on what you want to actually do with the dog ultimately.


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## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

Rennie is from Sequoyah and I have nothing but good things to say about Sherle and Shari. When we purchased Rennie we were actually looking for a puppy and went out to meet Sherle and see some of her adults including females that were going to be bred soon. She spent lots of time with us and brought out several males and females, all were beautiful dogs and well trained. Rennie was almost 2 and had been returned by the original owner due to some family issues. We fell in love with her and wound up getting her instead of waiting for a puppy. We love her to death and haven't had any problems with her behavior or healthwise.

When we started looking for our next puppy we went back and again had a great experience with them. This time we spent time with Shari and watched her work several dogs. We didn't end up getting one of their pups only because we would have had to wait a while longer than we wanted. Regardless, they are still very high on our list of potential breeders for our next dog and I frequently recommend them to people looking for GSDs in our area since they are very close.


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Thank you everyone and HOLLAND i def. agree with you I was just curious about what other ppl had to say about both these breeders. I want more of a companion but that DOES NOT mean I will not train my pup. I used to go to obedience, agility and conformation trails all the time. But I took a break to get my life on track and now I am just getting back into it. I used to train my dogs so much I have my own key to my training facility. I know how to train a dog I just am slowly coming back into everything and especially working night shift it is a little harder to find time to train as much as I used to. So I am by no means green to the world of dogs sports. I just don't want a crazy boarder collie high drive dog lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think that if people stopped breeding and buying ddr line dogs for "the look" , ddr dogs would stand a better chance in being maintained for the broader gene base .
Go with the breeder who works with the dogs.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ultimately the person who buys the dog can decide that


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

holland said:


> Ultimately the person who buys the dog can decide that


If a breeder is breeding solely for market demand, that's not a breeder I'd want to support.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes Emoore, and there are too many of them, particularly with DDR dogs .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Amen!!


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

I agree with everyone to a certain extent I do believe if the breeder does have bad intentions then you shouldn't support that breeder. But I agree with holland in the fact that you have control over what you make out of your dog I don't think titles makes your dog any better then any other persons dog. I do believe that that person getting titles on that dog worked very hard to obtain those titles. If you have determination, motivation and you know how to train a dog using what ever techniques work best for him/her that dog will become successful in what ever sport you chose to put it in. I will give you an example my vizsla's dam was not titled and his sire had one field title on him and that was it. My vizsla at 6 month old took first place at a dog trial and I got his CD on him. The second place winner was a female GSD that did schuzhund and had a very impressive pedigree (I knew this because I knew the guy). My vizsla also has his UDX, he is by far one of the smartest dogs I have ever owned and trained. So getting to my point titles does not make a dog who they are the trainer does. Yes every dog has its own personalities but it is how you raise and train that specific dog that matters. And looks are just a bonus.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

K9123 said:


> I agree with everyone to a certain extent I do believe if the breeder does have bad intentions then you shouldn't support that breeder.


To clarify, I don't think anybody is saying that either one of the breeders mentioned is a bad breeder or has bad intentions. I certainly don't believe that. 

Also, I think that this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...fearful-nervous-skittish-german-shepherd.html
shows that in a very very large part, you do NOT control what you make of your dog. Nerve base, drive, intelligence, genetic biddability, skittishness or shyness vs boldness. . . all are determined when sperm meets egg.


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Yes but have you seen the dog whisper...I have another dog that can be weird around people so what would you do in that case...You take the dog every where you ask people to feed the dog treats...that dog will eventually learn to associate hey if I sit here and be good then I get a treat. All learned behavior...their are a lot of factors that go into breeding I get that but once again you make a dog what you want it to be you see your pup becoming skittish you have an obligation IF you want to whine out that behavior to take that pup every where and constantly expose that pup to his fears so that pup will in the end be comfortable with his surroundings.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

K9123 said:


> Yes but have you seen the dog whisper...I have another dog that can be weird around people so what would you do in that case...You take the dog every where you ask people to feed the dog treats...that dog will eventually learn to associate hey if I sit here and be good then I get a treat. All learned behavior...their are a lot of factors that go into breeding I get that but once again you make a dog what you want it to be you see your pup becoming skittish you have an obligation IF you want to whine out that behavior to take that pup every where and constantly expose that pup to his fears so that pup will in the end be comfortable with his surroundings.



So, looking at that thread I posted, there are a _lot_ of people on this forum who own both skittish/nervous dogs and stable/confident dogs. . . same house, same socialization, same owners, same raising. I myself am one of those. I have two dogs, both of which were socialized and trained the heck out of during their whole lives. One has been bold and confident from day 1; the other has been submissive and fearful since day 1. What's the difference? Genetics. I've been playing "will you give my dog a cookie" remedial dog whisperer for 10 years. By the way, he spits them out. 10 years later he still won't take a piece of chicken from a stranger. 

You can socialize your dog to strangers, but a weak-nerved dog is always a weak-nerved dog. His first reaction to anything new and unfamiliar will always be fear and alarm. How many dogs live through 10 years of 4th of July fireworks, New Years Fireworks, and countless thunderstorms. . . . and are still fearful every time it thunders? A lot. How many dogs have their owners leave for work 5 days a week and still exhibit severe separation anxiety every single day for _years_? A lot. 


Again, I want to stress that this is a general discussion and NOT a reflection of either one of the breeders you were talking about.


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Idk I guess we just have our own opinions on genetics....


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Also, this is an interesting discussion to me.  Not trying to argue or create trouble or be rude or mean or anything. Just people sharing their views. 


I've seen the dog whisperer but I've always wondered what happens when they turn the cameras off and Cesar leaves. No wait, I know what happens because I've seen it. You socialize the dog not to be afraid of skateboards. But then the first time he sees a baby stroller he freaks out. So you socialize him not to be afraid of strollers. Then the first time he sees a wheelchair he freaks out. So you socialize him not to be afraid of wheelchairs. . . and it continues. . . you can socialize a weak-nerved dog to specific people and experiences, but his reaction to a _new_ experience will always reflect his genetically weak nerves.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I cancelled my reserve because it just wasn't a good time for me to get a puppy. I had plans and stuff, but I looked at things hard and long and decided to wait til I am done with college.

Good luck with finding a good GSD pup that suits you and remember, genotype over phenotype everytime. You can manage a pitbull, but you cannot train the dog fighting out of the pitbull, it's what they were bred for and it's in their genes. With a submissive aggressive GSD, you can manage it, but it's still there. It's part of the dog.


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

thank you


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Emoore said:


> Also, this is an interesting discussion to me.  Not trying to argue or create trouble or be rude or mean or anything. Just people sharing their views.
> 
> 
> I've seen the dog whisperer but I've always wondered what happens when they turn the cameras off and Cesar leaves. No wait, I know what happens because I've seen it. You socialize the dog not to be afraid of skateboards. But then the first time he sees a baby stroller he freaks out. So you socialize him not to be afraid of strollers. Then the first time he sees a wheelchair he freaks out. So you socialize him not to be afraid of wheelchairs. . . and it continues. . . you can socialize a weak-nerved dog to specific people and experiences, but his reaction to a _new_ experience will always reflect his genetically weak nerves.


thats true but you need to continually train and expose that dog to new environments.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

K9123 said:


> thats true but you need to continually train and expose that dog to new environments.


I agree you never stop socializing. . . it's just a lot easier and more fun with my dog who greets every new experience with boldness and happy enthusiasm than my dog who greets every new experience with fear and avoidance. 

I love him like no other but I'll do my darndest to never own another weak-nerved dog. The constant management is taxing.


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## K9123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Emoore said:


> I agree you never stop socializing. . . it's just a lot easier and more fun with my dog who greets every new experience with boldness and happy enthusiasm than my dog who greets every new experience with fear and avoidance.
> 
> I love him like no other but I'll do my darndest to never own another weak-nerved dog. The constant management is taxing.


Was he always weak nerved....why did you chose him out of the litter?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

K9123 said:


> Was he always weak nerved....why did you chose him out of the litter?


Yeah he was always weak-nerved. Looking back his parents were too but I didn't recognize it at the time. I thought they were "protective"  because they barked so much at strangers. 

I chose him out of the litter because 10 years ago I didn't know anything about choosing a breeder or a puppy and I thought AKC meant quality and barking meant protection and $350 was a good price for a purebred dog. I chose him out of the litter because he was the smartest out of the litter, or at least seemed so in the 30 minutes I spent with them. I love this dog with all my heart but raising him has taught me a lot that I would like to help others avoid. I have a slow-simmering hatred for amateurs who innocently breed dogs without knowledge of bloodlines or temperament evaluations and have screwed up this breed to the point that half the people on this forum own a genetically weak-nerved dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Training will never override genetics, it will only mask weaknesses. And I train ALL my dogs. The German Shepherd should be trained...totally agree with that....but there are many GS today that CAN'T be trained to do things the breed was made to do.....and that's not training...its genetics!!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Training a solid dog is a pure joy, the more effort you put into the dog the further you both go. It's like taking a superfast train. Training a weak nerved dog, on the other hand, is exhausting and reminds me running on a treadmill. Not insulting anyone here, just been there done that.

Cliff, is this you on the avatar pic?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I also love the look of Spartanville dogs, but since it seems the dark sable big headed dog is so much into fashion I'd ask for second and third opinions before purchasing one to make sure the breeder is not breeding only to satisfy the color market.

I remember there used to be a Puck son on the board who is absolutely the best looking dog I've ever seen, but IF I were to buy a dog like him I'd prefer to go to "the source" and import from the Anrebri kennels that did the training and titling.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I remember there used to be a Puck son on the board who is absolutely the best looking dog I've ever seen,


That dog from Puck is Quest? I think he has a SchH 2 or 3 now and is an excellent tracker...she tracked him blindfolded on dirt in a youtube video if I remember. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/105847-hes-finally-home.html 
I was interested in that particular breeding and Quest was_ the_ pup I could have gotten had I put a reserve on the litter.
But after doing more research, I decided to go with a blend of WG/DDR and an awesome breeding I found out about was at that same time. 
I don't think I'd regret going with that breeding and from what I see, Quest is doing great(handler is key, I'm sure!)


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> That dog from Puck is Quest? I think he has a SchH 2 or 3 now and is an excellent tracker...she tracked him blindfolded on dirt in a youtube video if I remember. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/105847-hes-finally-home.html
> I was interested in that particular breeding and Quest was_ the_ pup I could have gotten had I put a reserve on the litter.
> But after doing more research, I decided to go with a blend of WG/DDR and an awesome breeding I found out about was at that same time.
> I don't think I'd regret going with that breeding and from what I see, Quest is doing great(handler is key, I'm sure!)


Nop, not him (though he is quite a looker too!) the dog I'm talking about was born around 2007, when I just joined the board and Diabla was not even born yet.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ GSD07....yep!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

:greet: I imagined you differently


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will throw another voice into the "genetics" school of thought. 

I have seen people pour amazing time and love into a genetically weak nerved dog and still have a nervebag while rescuing genetically sound dogs who have been dumped into a crate for the first year of their life because they were "too much to handle" for their owner.

I saw one dog that was deformed from the lack of excercise and was coming back due to proper diet and excercise and the dog was social, environmentally sound, and simply amazing. with virtually no early socialization other than what he may have had as a puppy. [oh his deformaty was very weak pasterns and they were talking about buidling excercises to improve when I saw the dog]

In my own life I had a nervebag dog and I know I put much more effort into his early socialization and training than my new puppy, Beau. Nothing bothers Beau-he takes the whole world in stride, curious about everything but scared of nothing. I did not make him that way, his breeder did by making sure the right dogs got put together.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> training will never override genetics, it will only mask weaknesses. And i train all my dogs. The german shepherd should be trained...totally agree with that....but there are many gs today that can't be trained to do things the breed was made to do.....and that's not training...its genetics!!





jocoyn said:


> i will throw another voice into the "genetics" school of thought.
> 
> I have seen people pour amazing time and love into a genetically weak nerved dog and still have a nerve bag . . .
> <snip>
> . . . Nothing bothers beau-he takes the whole world in stride, curious about everything but scared of nothing. I did not make him that way, his breeder did by making sure the right dogs got put together.


amen!


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Have any of you been to the sequoyah site? I dont know if you looked at outside studs on the site but Rambo vom Spartanville is advertised as having been used in their breeding program. My question to all you experts is this. If sequoyah is so great at working their dogs and spartanville is just haphazardly pairing dogs then why would the owners of seqouyah shepherds use a spartanville dog as a stud in their program. The fact is both breeders produce working dogs with great pedigrees. Dont allow people with breeder politics and grudges to misinform your decision.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DDR lines/ the connection to both kennels...


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## Snowmyst (Feb 21, 2015)

I have a pup out of a Spartanville bitch from another breeder that is almost perfect. He has plenty of nerve nothing fazes him, fireworks, car back fires nothing. He is almost 7 months and has been dock diving like a pro. Swimming since 4 months. Doing rally classes and obedience. Travels in the car like a dream, was easily housebroken and loves everyone he meets. Never hesitates to check something out. I did say almost perfect...he's a bit of a brat....likes to nip my butt when we are playing...LOL


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

you're shopping for a BMW... one seller is a german engineer, the other is a collector, who do you choose?


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

I know that a lot of people on this site have differing opinions about Ed Frawley and leerburg kennels. But i happen to believe that the man knows his stuff when it comes to breeding working dogs. On leerburgs site they have his picks for best german shepherd dogs hes ever seen, heard of, or worked with, now he admits he may have overlooked dogs from the past/present and is open to adding certain dogs to his list if he feels they deserve to be on it. Spartanvilles current stud Ajax vom Brandsteig has three of those dogs on that list on his pedigree, Lord v gleisdreick, zorro v laager wall, and neumans jim. A bitch of hers named bruna has neumans jim as well as Tino on her pedigree. They obviously have done extensive research on the bloodlines at spartanville, and each dog has been titled. I think all those facts should definitely be considered. Id also like to point out that no one has explained why the engineers over at sequoyah decided to use a dog bred by spartanville in their program. Seems like Onyx tried but im not sure what they meant.

http://leerburg.com/pedigree.htm


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

lol @ the engineers over at sequoyah!! I for one am not saying that either breeders dogs are inferior to the other... my thought and the impression I've gathered from the earlier portion of this thread is that it comes down to the type of breeder and program you'd like to support. an engineer and a collector can have the exact same product but their knowledge and perspective is going to differ because of the hands on experience. so it's more about the buyer and what they're looking for specifically.... if i need a performance vehicle, I personally want to talk to someone who has raced, I can read the boasts of a brochure myself.

as far as a single dog showing up in another's breeding program - simple, for diversity.

I work for a service dog organization with it's own breeding stock and we will often bring studs in from other schools and from professional breeders. if a breeder is used that typically produces sporting/working/field labs - we aren't saying that breeder produces dogs suitable for guide work.... but we recognized some qualities of that dog and it's lineage that will compliment our program. the magic is in appropriate pairings.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

....onyx is just pointing out that both kennels are using DDR lines, meaning, eventually you're going to run into common ancestry. this is why the integrity of a breeding program and preserving certain lines is so important.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Training will never override genetics, it will only mask weaknesses. And I train ALL my dogs. The German Shepherd should be trained...totally agree with that....but there are many GS today that CAN'T be trained to do things the breed was made to do.....and that's not training...its genetics!!



Put it in BOLD and tatoo it on your mind!!!! Carmspack and Cliff are both experienced people and understand what happens here in the US......Too many breeders are seduced by that elusive "black sable" look and think titles equal quality and working ability......


Lee


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