# British talk show host questions Cesar Millan



## GregK

Alan Titchmarsh you Hero ! - YouTube


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## PatchonGSD

LOL oh no. let me go get my popcorn..................opcorn: OK I'm ready.


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## Sunflowers

opcorn:


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## Olivers mama

opcorn:


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## catz

It was a quick interview but caused quite a bit of controversy on a british forum I'm a member of


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## selzer

Did you notice how Cesar went from calm and humorous to tense and agitated?


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## msvette2u

I noticed how the host would ask one thing and CM would answer something completely different and barely related...!!


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## GregK

msvette2u said:


> I noticed how the host would ask one thing and CM would answer something completely different and barely related...!!


He could be a politician.


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## msvette2u

GregK said:


> He could be a politician.


I was just thinking of that LOL
He _is,_ in a way...dog training may be a more heated topic than politics


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## wildo

I'm surprised this thread has stayed so inactive... Nobody wants to point out that the host seems to have issues with prong collars, chock chains, and e-collars? I'm not particularly a Millan advocate, but it would be quite difficult indeed to support and talk about your view of aversive conditioning if the person you are talking with is adamantly against tools that the majority think are generally ok for use- like prong and e-collars.

My take is that the majority of "average, joe-schmoe" pet owners are the type of people who view a prong collar as a torture device while in the same thought they smash their dog's face into a poo accident in the house, smack them on the head, and take them outside... Kinda hypocritical.

I'm not really making any claims about CM- there's a _ton_ of threads here already discussing him and his tactics, but this interview would be almost impossible to get your point across. I think his "political" answers of barely (if at all) answering the question by repeating his stance on the broad topic was about the best CM could have possibly answered.


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## mycobraracr

It looked like CM got cornered an was very uncomfortable. I actually felt bad for him. I disagree with a lot of what host was saying. It seemed as if they only brought Him on the the show to attack him. I'm not really a CM fan but this didn't seem right. 

As for the use of tools. They are tools, why not use them? Not every dog can be trained purely positive and not every dog can take corrections. I thought that's why we have all these different training techniques and tools. So we can modify styles to fit each individual dog.


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## PatchonGSD

mycobraracr said:


> *It looked like CM got cornered an was very uncomfortable. I actually felt bad for him. I disagree with a lot of what host was saying. It seemed as if they only brought Him on the the show to attack him. I'm not really a CM fan but this didn't seem right. *
> 
> As for the use of tools. They are tools, why not use them? Not every dog can be trained purely positive and not every dog can take corrections. I thought that's why we have all these different training techniques and tools. So we can modify styles to fit each individual dog.


That was entirely the point.


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## Caledon

I don't like the host.


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## NancyJ

He should have known what he was going into.


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## PatchonGSD

jocoyn said:


> He should have known what he was going into.


LOL I have to agree with this, too. While I *do* like CM, I dont feel sorry for him in this instance. What did he think was going to happen?


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## robk

That guy was a jerk and CM handled him just fine.


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## Gharrissc

At least Cesar doesn't run from being confronted.He knows that a lot of people don't like his methods,but he always faces it. That's more than a lot of less well known trainers would do.There was nothing mentioned about the good things CM has done, just bad. I am sure CM is used to it by now though.


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## Blanketback

If I was in CM's place, it would have been a fiasco, lol. What's a "barbaric spiked collar" anyway? I've never seen one. LMAO.


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## LARHAGE

The host was a complete moron, I know one thing, I would take my dog to Cesar any day of the week over that idiot.


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## selzer

wildo said:


> I'm surprised this thread has stayed so inactive... *Nobody wants to point out that the host seems to have issues with prong collars, chock chains, and e-collars*? I'm not particularly a Millan advocate, but it would be quite difficult indeed to support and talk about your view of aversive conditioning *if the person you are talking with is adamantly against tools that the majority think are generally ok for use- like prong and e-collars*.
> 
> My take is that the majority of "average, joe-schmoe" pet owners are the type of people who view a prong collar as a torture device while in the same thought they smash their dog's face into a poo accident in the house, smack them on the head, and take them outside... Kinda hypocritical.
> 
> I'm not really making any claims about CM- there's a _ton_ of threads here already discussing him and his tactics, but this interview would be almost impossible to get your point across. I think his "political" answers of barely (if at all) answering the question by repeating his stance on the broad topic was about the best CM could have possibly answered.



Actually, it is really only Americans that feel that prong collars and e-collars are necessary to control or train dogs. The people in England (where the host is from) and in many countries, do not find them necessary, and see them as kind of barbaric. 

I personally feel there are other ways to train a dog, than using these tools. Cesar was on though when he said people are already using the tools, he shows them how to use them properly. The host was on about how easy it is for people to abuse the tools. 

I am shocked at the level of intolerance there is on anyone who disagrees with Cesar, even if they come from a country where these tools are not used, and therefore not needed or recommended.


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## wildo

selzer said:


> Actually, it is really only Americans that feel that prong collars and e-collars are necessary to control or train dogs. The people in England (where the host is from) and in many countries, do not find them necessary, and see them as kind of barbaric.


I'm not from Europe, never have been there, and have no idea what tools they use for dog training. So I can't really comment further on that matter. What tools Europeans use for training wasn't really my point though.


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## selzer

wildo said:


> I'm not from Europe, never have been there, and have no idea what tools they use for dog training. So I can't really comment further on that matter. What tools Europeans use for training wasn't really my point though.


No, but this was a Brittish talk show that Cesar was on. The collars are banned in England, so it seems like the majority of the population have a different idea than what you have, where you are talking about the majority of people. I don't even think the majority of people in the US like or use the collars. But you just think those people are unintelligent and would shove their dog's faces in poop.

It is interesting how when people don't feel the same way about things as we do, we pretty much label them as stupid or extremists.


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## wildo

selzer said:


> But you just think those people *are unintelligent* and would shove their dog's faces in poop.
> 
> It is interesting how when people don't feel the same way about things as we do, *we pretty much label them as stupid or extremists.*


Hmmm, selzer- let my go ahead and quote what I _actually _wrote since nowhere did I call anyone unintelligent and nowhere did I label anyone stupid or extremist. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting that. Here's what I wrote:



wildo said:


> I'm surprised this thread has stayed so inactive... Nobody wants to point out that the host seems to have issues with prong collars, chock chains, and e-collars? I'm not particularly a Millan advocate, but it would be quite difficult indeed to support and talk about your view of aversive conditioning if the person you are talking with is adamantly against tools that the majority think are generally ok for use- like prong and e-collars.


Here I'm directing these statements about the majority of forum users- the majority (it seems) who participate in schutzhund or some other working sport and use both prong and e-collars. A lot of board members would not be able to have a civil conversation with that interviewer since the interviewer is obviously anti-aversive correction tools in dog training and not willing to listen to ideas on the matter.



wildo said:


> My take is that the majority of "average, joe-schmoe" pet owners are the type of people who view a prong collar as a torture device while in the same thought they smash their dog's face into a poo accident in the house, smack them on the head, and take them outside... Kinda hypocritical.


Here, as indicated, I'm directing this to average pet owners which are not board members. This board may have 20K+ members, but that's a drop in the bucket to the number of dog owners in America. The average pet owner hardly hangs out on a GSD forum... And if average pet owners are anything like my stepdad, grandpa, mom, and lots of other family- they do not understand how a prong or e-collar works and should be used and do view such aversive corrections as "torture." Yet these are the same people who grew up with "rub their nose in it!" ideas of potty training a dog. At least in my stretch of the woods, this is a beyond common approach. I called such people hypocritical not stupid, extreme, or unintelligent.


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## Blanketback

I would actually prefer to raise my puppy in Europe, where they can take their dogs on buses and into pubs, and in some places the leash is left at home. If they even own one, lol. And as I've posted in the past, I believe that the dogs are much much better for it. Just because something is banned, that doesn't mean a thing to me. All it means that bureaucracy has once again stuck it's nose into my business.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lol he should have asked the host how many hyper aggressive dogs he has helped with his purely posative approach? Id love to see all these purely posative trainers who view CM as an abuser do their thing with same types of dogs he deals with. CM is too humble and his detractors often use that to their advantage. Lol and who says that people in the UK dont need prongs? Instead they can use chain chokes and we know how much better for dogs those are... Having seen common examples of "dog training" and ownership in the UK I am unimpressed..they are by no means an example to anyone.


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## selzer

wildo said:


> Hmmm, selzer- let my go ahead and quote what I _actually _wrote since nowhere did I call anyone unintelligent and nowhere did I label anyone stupid or extremist. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting that. Here's what I wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Here I'm directing these statements about the majority of forum users- the majority (it seems) who participate in schutzhund or some other working sport and use both prong and e-collars. A lot of board members would not be able to have a civil conversation with that interviewer since the interviewer is obviously anti-aversive correction tools in dog training and not willing to listen to ideas on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Here, as indicated, I'm directing this to average pet owners which are not board members. This board may have 20K+ members, but that's a drop in the bucket to the number of dog owners in America. The average pet owner hardly hangs out on a GSD forum... And if average pet owners are anything like my stepdad, grandpa, mom, and lots of other family- they do not understand how a prong or e-collar works and should be used and do view such aversive corrections as "torture." Yet these are the same people who grew up with "rub their nose in it!" ideas of potty training a dog. At least in my stretch of the woods, this is a beyond common approach. I called such people hypocritical not stupid, extreme, or unintelligent.


Your post talked about majorities, majorities of pet owners, the things the majority of people use, you suggest that people view them as torture items are the same type of people who put the dog's face in poo -- that suggests the people are not up to date, or are unintelligent, but you are not the only one, Larhage calls him a moron -- look that up in the dictionary.

If people do not like the way we train, they are morons. 
It's a world filled with morons. 

Cesar's methods are controversial. This site shows that. People who will not use his methods on this board do not smash their dogs' noses in poop, and hit them over the head. But we are the elite. We are the people on a GSD site. 

Frankly, I think we are a spattering of the general population. Some have been in dogs for a lifetime, others have their very first dog. Some think that prong collars are unnecessary most of the time, and others think that eventually you will need one, while others think they are the best thing since sliced bread. 

I think we _are_ a bunch of idiots if we think that anyone who harbors a different view about how dogs should be trained is uninteligent or otherwise abuses their dogs to train them.


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## wildo

Well, once again selzer I hope your "we" comment isn't including me! Now you've added "moron" to the list of words I somehow used without actually typing? You can infer whatever you want to from what I wrote- that's your choice, but I've already elaborated for you the intent of my original post. If you choose to just ignore the elaboration and continue to put words in my mouth, then I can think of a good application for the words you keep saying I used...


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## Blanketback

Prong collar aside, I would have been really angry when he told me that I punched the dogs. Because I was told that I punched a dog a few months ago. I didn't, and I had to defend myself against what someone "saw". I did take my arm and use my finger to get the dog's attention though. I'm telling you, CM handled it better than I did, lol.


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## selzer

wildo said:


> Well, once again selzer I hope your "we" comment isn't including me! Now you've added "moron" to the list of words I somehow used without actually typing? You can infer whatever you want to from what I wrote- that's your choice, but I've already elaborated for you the intent of my original post. If you choose to just ignore the elaboration and continue to put words in my mouth, then I can think of a good application for the words you keep saying I used...



Yeah, well, I did say that Larhage called him a moron, if you read the post. '

I am actually in agreement with who ever said that Cesar should have known what he was in for going in. C'mon, there is a ban on prong collars in England, and they do not generally use crates either. What kind of professional dog-trainer celebrity wouldn't know that going in. 

I don't think the host is a moron. He is speaking from the viewpoint of the popular beliefs in his country, that doesn't make him a moron.


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## Kaity

This was an awful video. I believe e collars are illegal in England as well. 

The big bad electric shock thru the collar just feels like if you shocked your hand on a door handle or something in the winter. Not that bad, gets the reaction we want. Poking the dog in the ribs, kicking his underbelly and snapping him out of the behaviour when he's focusing in on something for example, a leash aggressive dog. I'd like to see the host of this show walk a l/a dog past dog kennels, see how he does without a prong collar. How do you otherwise CORRECT the dog? I can positive train all I want. I can teach a heel over the period of 8-12 months. But who wants that? My dog needs to go for a proper walk, so I throw a prong on her. 

How does alpha wolf correct lower wolf? They nip the neck? Is this any different from a prong? I don't think so..


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## wildo

Is the host of the show actually a dog trainer? I assumed the host was just a normal TV talk show host.


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## msvette2u

wildo said:


> My take is that the majority of "average, joe-schmoe" pet owners are the type of people who view a prong collar as a torture device while in the same thought they smash their dog's face into a poo accident in the house, smack them on the head, and take them outside... Kinda hypocritical.


You'd be wrong. 
As a rescue we see all kinds of owners and screen their applications. 
I've found that the general population has become quite aware that there's "good" and "bad" ways to train, I've found, and many are stating that ignoring unwanted behavior while teaching good(wanted) behaviors is far superior to "smashing faces" into poop, etc.
I'm impressed actually, and glad there's so much education out there.


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## wildo

msvette2u- is that the owners dropping off the dogs, or adopting them? Big difference...

BTW- I completely agree with you that it's good to hear that training education is happening! I'm just kind of curious if the people adopting dogs from a rescue are the kind of people researching and learning about training methods while the people who are forfeiting their dogs are the kind of people who aren't? That would be an interesting correlation.


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## msvette2u

Good point but we don't take "drop offs" so I don't see them. I dwell on the folks adopting, really 

I do find a very odd occurrence...where folks adopting will state they are gone 8-9hrs. a day yet will make time for the dog, while folks surrendering (on craigslist anyway) will say they are gone 8-9 hrs. a day and _have no time for their dog_!!!


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## selzer

Kaity said:


> This was an awful video. I believe e collars are illegal in England as well.
> 
> The big bad electric shock thru the collar just feels like if you shocked your hand on a door handle or something in the winter. Not that bad, gets the reaction we want. Poking the dog in the ribs, kicking his underbelly and snapping him out of the behaviour when he's focusing in on something for example, a leash aggressive dog. I'd like to see the host of this show walk a l/a dog past dog kennels, see how he does without a prong collar. How do you otherwise CORRECT the dog? I can positive train all I want. I can teach a heel over the period of 8-12 months. But who wants that? My dog needs to go for a proper walk, so I throw a prong on her.
> 
> How does alpha wolf correct lower wolf? They nip the neck? Is this any different from a prong? I don't think so..


But they do train dogs without prongs and shock collars in England, and that is kind of the point, they can do it without the controversial tools, so they really are unnecessary. Cesar himself said that the tools are unnecessary, no pet shops where he comes from, they do not use prongs or e-collars to control dogs. Though leash manners seem not to be a big deal as leashes really aren't being over-used there either. 

It does not take 8-12 months to teach a dog to heal without a prong collar, but a lot of Americans want just what you said, to just slip on a prong collar and shazaam! the dog suddenly walks on a leash without pulling you down the street. Problem solved, no point in wasting time or money on the dog, training it. 

As for the alpha wolf statement, I just don't see the connection. Dogs are not wolves. We certainly are not wolves or dogs. I am sure half the equation understands that quite well. Dogs are pretty intelligent. They are better at understanding our body language and our training, than we are at trying to mimic our perception of their behaviors/language/communication. I will stick with being a human as the only involved individual who would be fooled by the alternative would be myself.


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## msvette2u

A good show to watch is "Dogs Decoded", selzer is right, we are not dogs or wolves so why should we try to mimic them?? Dogs know we're not and trying to act like a dog or a wolf only serves to confuse them. 



> But they do train dogs without prongs and shock collars in England, and that is kind of the point, they can do it without the controversial tools, so they really are unnecessary.


:thumbup: 
It's our "quick fix" society that deems such short-cuts to training necessary.


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## Kaity

Point well taken selzer. Now how does my puppy learn some independence and stop nuscance barking in a 20x20 kennel outside and jumping at the fence? Yell at dog, it does nothing. I can't throw anything at her because she's behind a barrier. How do I get my dog to stop barking? How to do ensure a solid recall, say with a rescue with high prey drive? How do they correct leash aggressive behaviours? I've been taught some sort of physical communication to snap the dog out of it when they lock in on something, then treat/praise.

I didn't think the prong was much different than nipping, sorry for that misconception. I don't know of any dog trainers out here or any people in general who can walk a dog on a nice loose leash, but I encourage you to share with me different ways to do this with my dogs as I've tried and failed.


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## selzer

How to train a dog to walk on a loose leash? 

MaggieRoseLee!!! Where is your training a dog to walk a on leash u-tube???

All the dogs down in my signiture have been taught to walk on a loose lead without an e-collar or a prong collar. The best ways are to start when they are babies, 3-4 months old, but the methods work on any dog of any age. Then you can use treats to get them in position, praise when they are in position, or you can simply not go unless they are beside you and not pulling, or you can turn abruptly and go in the opposite direction, or you can use a combination of all of those methods. 

I think MRLs video shows her working with the dogs without a lead, teaching them to walk next to her. Unless I am mixing them up. 

I keep training sessions short. If I have a higher energy dog, I will train after I do a lot of play, running on his part, and less exertion on my part to release the energy. I train a loose lead and I train heeling. Loose lead means the dog can sniff and be a dog, but must keep the lead loose, heeling means the dog has to be at my side and sit when I stop. I will walk a dog on a loose lead, but we heel across streets.


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## msvette2u

Just type "loose leash walking" into youtube 

Also I saw PetCo was having a FREE Loose Leash Walking seminar, here anyway.


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## Blitzkrieg1

lol..it should be free. Treat training works well when it comes to teaching the dog what you acually want of it. The better relationship you have with the dog the more he wants to please you. However, he will test you and test frequently depending on the temperment especially a working dog. Love is not respect. Respect is gained by how you respond to those frequent tests. 
Yes I can probably use a rope and improvise a choke, then use it to train the dog. But why not use a prong when the efficiency and training time is that much less, not to mention the amount of times I have to issue corrections to the dog. The prong, Choke, E collar whatever you want they are all tools. But as with all tools some are more efficient then others. 
I can use a dime to turn a flat head screw, it will get the job done no problem. Should I then only use dimes and never a screw driver simply because the dime can do the job too??


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## Olivers mama

Blitz - we can't use dimes here as screwdrivers - have to save as many as we can for gasoline...

But your point is well-taken. All of the aforementioned are *tools*. Owner's choice which to use & what not to. In the "old days", a simple lead & collar - either leather or choke - were the main tools used. With quite a bit of success, I might add. Nowadays, we have doggie shrinks telling us to raise dogs like we do kids - the soft touch -vs- discipline. I'm not going to argue the old 'trachea injury owing to a choke collar' thing. (If & when those injuries happen, it's the handler's fault, not the collar.) 100% treat-based training may work well for a puppy. It does NOT work effectively with all Rescues. 

We have a Rescue - she's 99% obed-trained - as long as there's treats. If not, she flips a digit at us.

I wasn't going to watch the video cause I knew it would tick me off. Which it did - talk show hosts have a limited amount of time & always (IMO) wind up being rude. To say to a guest, "we've never had so many complaints about an impending guest" - heck, even *I* wanted to smack him. And I'm more than tired of the pro- & anti-CM argument. Neither side holds a whole lot of water. Neither side can get beyond a simple disagreement. This host was an arse. IMO. And the punching of a biting dog? Bad, bad Cesar! 

Only 1 person on this forum has been specific on how she'd handle a GSD that bit her. Everyone else skates over it. Pro-treat or anti-treat - no one has told me how to handle a biting dog. And I'll tell you what - I'll be darned if I'll offer treats to a 88-lb biting animal. I "get" Cesar puching the biting dog. I've seen a lot worse.


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## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> lol..it should be free. Treat training works well when it comes to teaching the dog what you acually want of it. The better relationship you have with the dog the more he wants to please you. However, he will test you and test frequently depending on the temperment especially a working dog. Love is not respect. Respect is gained by how you respond to those frequent tests.
> Yes I can probably use a rope and improvise a choke, then use it to train the dog. But why not use a prong when the efficiency and training time is that much less, not to mention the amount of times I have to issue corrections to the dog. The prong, Choke, E collar whatever you want they are all tools. But as with all tools some are more efficient then others.
> *I can use a dime to turn a flat head screw, it will get the job done no problem. Should I then only use dimes and never a screw driver simply because the dime can do the job too*??


Not the best analogy. A dime is not the right tool for the job. Now you could say, you have to drive a screw into the handle of your pot, should you get out the electric screwdriver to do this, or a regular flat screw driver. For some dogs putting a prong collar or an e-collar on them would be like using rider mower with a 42 inch deck for a postage stamp lawn. It can be over-kill. 

Personally, it is amazing to me that people who like prong collars talk about all the testing and corrections their dogs need. I don't use them, and my dogs really don't test me a lot. I rarely have to use a correction at all. When I do a voice correction or a look is enough. I am willing to take a little longer in training. But then I have a bunch of dogs, and training time is some of the only one on one bonding time I have with each dog, and so if it takes longer to get the dog where I want them to be, that's fine. I don't mind taking my time on the journey.


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## Blitzkrieg1

selzer said:


> Not the best analogy. A dime is not the right tool for the job. Now you could say, you have to drive a screw into the handle of your pot, should you get out the electric screwdriver to do this, or a regular flat screw driver. For some dogs putting a prong collar or an e-collar on them would be like using rider mower with a 42 inch deck for a postage stamp lawn. It can be over-kill.
> 
> Personally, it is amazing to me that people who like prong collars talk about all the testing and corrections their dogs need. I don't use them, and *my dogs really don't test me a lot*. I rarely have to use a correction at all. When I do a voice correction or a look is enough. I am willing to take a little longer in training. But then I have a bunch of dogs, and training time is some of the only one on one bonding time I have with each dog, and so if it takes longer to get the dog where I want them to be, that's fine. I don't mind taking my time on the journey.


No offence but thats very indicative of their temperment. I like a harder dog that pushes the limits, it usually equates to a better worker.


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## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No offence but thats very indicative of their temperment. I like a harder dog that pushes the limits, it usually equates to a better worker.


No offense taken, but dogs will test people who give in, and who ask for something and don't follow through too, ask multiple times, etc. Some of it is just biddibility, and some dogs are really great at wanting to work with their people.


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## sparra

Kaity said:


> This was an awful video. I believe e collars are illegal in England as well.
> 
> The big bad electric shock thru the collar just feels like if you shocked your hand on a door handle or something in the winter. Not that bad, gets the reaction we want. Poking the dog in the ribs, kicking his underbelly and snapping him out of the behaviour when he's focusing in on something for example, a leash aggressive dog. I'd like to see the host of this show walk a l/a dog past dog kennels, see how he does without a prong collar. How do you otherwise CORRECT the dog? I can positive train all I want. I can teach a heel over the period of 8-12 months. But who wants that? My dog needs to go for a proper walk, so I throw a prong on her.
> 
> How does alpha wolf correct lower wolf? They nip the neck? Is this any different from a prong? I don't think so..


I don't know if prongs are banned over here in Australia but I have never seen anyone use one. You can't just buy them....I would think you would need to get one from overseas like Leerburg etc if you wanted one.....I could be wrong but I have NEVER even seen one here.....yet people train their dogs without them. I will admit Luther could have maybe benefited from one early on BUT we don't have them so it just took more time.
E-collars are allowed but again have never seen one used.....it is not a popular training tool. 
I have nothing against either as I have never used either so am in no position to have an opinion on them BUT to suggest that training can't be done without them seems a little far fetched considering in some countries they are not used at all.

And to imply that if you don't need a prong collar to control your dog that your dog is soft Blitzkrieg1 is.....well.....:crazy:


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## msvette2u

Why assume "treat training" Blitz? It can be done without treats!


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## qbchottu

Interested to hear:
How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues _without_ the use of any correction devices?


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## sparra

qbchottu said:


> Interested to hear:
> How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues _without_ the use of any correction devices?


No I don't do any of these things. 
I do use my dog for herding our sheep along with our kelpie. He has to have pretty good self control and a VERY solid recall for this.....we muster 500-1000 sheep at a time so I consider him pretty clever to be able to do this job without too much damage  He is not "untrained".
I just did some research and prongs are banned in my state (surprise, surprise ) so has me wondering about Police dogs over here and what they use.....would they use them if they were banned??
Seems i don't have an option anyway so even if I wanted to try one I couldn't thanks to our over the top laws!!!


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## PatchonGSD

> *Blitz - we can't use dimes here as screwdrivers - have to save as many as we can for gasoline..*


LOL! Amen to that one.


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## Kaity

qbchottu said:


> Interested to hear:
> How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues _without_ the use of any correction devices?


I'm curious to see replies to this. How many people with seriously hard dogs train without these tools as well?


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## sparra

I'm curious to know how many people use them who DON"T have "hard" dogs??
Maybe Australian GSD and European GSD are just not as "hard" as those dogs in the USA.....


----------



## KayleeGSD

Okay I just watched it and all I heard was negative aspects of what CM does. He has a way, and we know his way is not the only way. I think all the tools, training methods, correction methods depend on the specific dog, the specific situation, and most important the individual owner. 

CM has helped many dogs that would have been put down, and has trained many owners too. They put a warning on the show, but people try to act out what they see on the tv. You do not get to see the entire process from start to finish they can only fit in so much in one episode.

The best thing any owner can do is consult a good dog trainer. Always keep in mind every trainer has different methods. Some methods may not be right for you or your dog. I researched a bunch of trainers in our area until I found the right one for us. 

Some dog owners may use a prong collar, a choker collar, or an e collar. I do not have a problem with people who use these tools correctly. I spent over a month training Kaylee on a choker chain as I have done with all of our GSDs. I do not choke my dogs out with it. The quick pull is a sound correction along with the chain tug. I introduced it slowly to her once she was able to walk with me on the leash and do basic commands while on the leash. I have a regular collar, also a Freedom no pull harness, and a choker. Hey that is me and I use one of the three depending on where we are and what we are doing. 

It seems that people like to attack CM and at least he stands up to the confrontation head on. You do not see him getting upset or nasty about it.


----------



## Kaity

sparra said:


> I'm curious to know how many people use them who DON"T have "hard" dogs??
> Maybe Australian GSD and European GSD are just not as "hard" as those dogs in the USA.....



One of my bitches in Canadian bred, Working American dam and German import sire. My other bitch is bred out of *European* lines. Both born in Canada. One is a hard dog, one is not. Both on prongs.


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## sparra

Kaity said:


> One of my bitches in Canadian bred, Working American dam and German import sire. My other bitch is bred out of *European* lines. Both born in Canada. One is a hard dog, one is not. Both on prongs.


Haha......I was just joking about that......
I have no problems with you using prongs......at least you have the choice!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Kaity said:


> I'm curious to see replies to this. How many people with seriously hard dogs train without these tools as well?


I don't think that people have to train in those venues to have "seriously hard" dogs.


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## msvette2u

I have found the "general population" does not know how to train a dog, at all. 
It makes sense they'd resort to prongs and e-collars to get faster results, because usually you can see the results almost instantaneously. 

For instance, although nothing specifically to do with prongs, I have folks come here to adopt a dog, and want to know if a dog can "sit" or does it need trained to do so.
Without fail, they say "sit" then push down on the dog's rump.

I then watch this scenario for a few moments before stopping them and telling them they'd be able to train a "sit" if they lure the dog's head up, and step in slightly to cause their haunches to go down and eventually touch the floor or ground.

It's so much easier to teach the dog what to do, then be punishing it for not doing what you want it to do. And quicker, with more reliable results. 

If your mindset is "this dog is hard" and so punishment based training "will work better", then nothing will change. 
Now. I don't have an issue with a correction when applied properly but again, in the general population of pet owners, punishments are often given and the dog is actually _taught_ nothing. 
I think things are improving on that front, with the younger generation utilizing clickers and other positive training methods.


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## wolfspirit

I train my dog without these tools. He is a hard dog, he likes to bite a suit but he would bite for real without question. He has some handler aggression in his lines and so I have always trained him without conflict. 

(And I'm from the UK and most were really pleased that Alan Titchmarsh questioned CM )


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## selzer

I admit that my dogs are not hard. They are more middle of the road. I have a few marshmellows, but most of them can take a correction, will recover quickly, are not nervy, won't shut down or hide, but they are not hard. They respond to a light correction because that is what I use consistently along with praise as a reward when I train, and they will work for praise, and they will adjust with a light correction. It works for us. 

But I have had at least one of my dogs diagnosed as hard, from a trainer. It was a load of baloney though. She is not hard at all, if anything she is softer than she should be. 

I think a LOT more people THINK their dogs are hard, than actually have hard dogs. I am not saying there aren't hard dogs out there. But I think people that have dogs that shut down, call them stubborn or hard because they find them challenging to train, and if you put prong collars on such a dog and correct them when they are shutting down it can actually make things worse. I think many of us use force quicker than we should in training, and then that level of force or more force is required. And I think a lot of trainers are quicker to say a dog is hard, and slap a prong collar on the dog than to properly assess a dog.


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## Syaoransbear

Aren't quite a few dog breeds banned in the UK? I'd rather see people using training tools than banning breeds.

I train with training tools, but for the most part they are safety measures in the event that training fails. And it probably will. A dog is a dog, not a robot. If police dogs screw up occasionally even with constant expert training, how could I possibly trust my dog to be 100% obedient to my second rate training?


----------



## selzer

Syaoransbear said:


> Aren't quite a few dog breeds banned in the UK? I'd rather see people using training tools than banning breeds.
> 
> I train with training tools, but for the most part they are safety measures in the event that training fails. And it probably will. A dog is a dog, not a robot. If police dogs screw up occasionally even with constant expert training, how could I possibly trust my dog to be 100% obedient to my second rate training?


Funny you mention police dogs. I think that the reason police dogs don't mess up a lot worse than they do, is that the vast majority of the dogs used are solid-nerved dogs in the first place. But as for expert training, sorry, but that is just a blanket statement. So many departments have little to no money for the k9 program that they used donated dogs and puppies and the handlers train them, some of them with very little training themselves. Most of them are trained with prong collars and compulsion. And some of them do screw up.


----------



## Dainerra

msvette2u said:


> You'd be wrong.
> As a rescue we see all kinds of owners and screen their applications.
> I've found that the general population has become quite aware that there's "good" and "bad" ways to train, I've found, and many are stating that ignoring unwanted behavior while teaching good(wanted) behaviors is far superior to "smashing faces" into poop, etc.
> I'm impressed actually, and glad there's so much education out there.


I would be willing to bet that the people you see do not fit "average pet owner" much more than the people of this forum. The average person I know would get as far as seeing that there was an application to get a dog from rescue and laugh and walk away. They find the very idea of someone deciding if they can own the dog that they want to be ridiculous.

Our local humane society started an application process recently. Public support (even donations!) have tanked since then. Because the public here doesn't believe that it is appropriate for them to try to say who can own a dog (or particular dog) other than asking "do you have $$" Though there is a pit bull ban in town, so they are required to make sure that they don't adopt one to anyone within the city limits. Though, of course, people lie. Someone this year had a pit bull maul her son. She lied at the Humane Society about living in town so that she could adopt the dog.

Even the people that I know that are breeders (BYB and/or puppymills by the definition of those of us in this forum) find the idea of telling a client which puppy they can own to be stupid. And limited registrations? why? the people PAID for the dog, if they want to breed it to make some of the money back that is their right.

Also, and I'm sure many good breeders here can attest (Selzer?), people are good at figuring out the answers you want when you ask specific questions. Though I do know some people who would answer honestly "I potty train by using a rolled up newspaper/rubbing their nose in it", most will guess that since you are asking you must want one of those "kinder/gentler methods" and parrot back what they think that you want to hear. In the mind of those I know, this would be justified since the very idea of asking the question is unfair and, once they own the dog, you can shove your "goody-goody" ideas.

And I'm not talking about just here in AR, but in FL, MO, WV, OH - all the places I've spent lots of time around the general public dog owner. Lots of it at dog events....


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## RyleesDad

Dog trainers/dog enthusiasts are such control freaks. Everything has to be done their way or they'll **** you to ****. "Here's the correct way you train a dog with positive reinforcement, ill show you how for just 69.95" and then they'll never tell u what to do if you don't have a double cheeseburger in your pocket to bribe the dog with. Well why can't I just turn on the tv and learn from Cesar for free?

Personally I like Cesar Milan, Victoria Stilwell, Kikopup and whoever else. All of their methods work, just depends on what you prefer. As long as nobody is doing wrestling moves on the dogs then I'm all ears. Cesar has to know that you can't please everybody but people also have to appreciate how much he has helped. You can promote more advanced methods without making him out to be Satan himself 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Blitzkrieg1

msvette2u said:


> Why assume "treat training" Blitz? It can be done without treats!


 Just the most common method used in the learning phase aside from avoidance based and I would argue most effective, as you say there are other approaches. 
For the record my current bitch is handler sensative but can take the stiffest correction without a yelp, and bounces back like nothing happened. I correct when I know she knows what I want and still does not comply or takes her time. 
I trained her to heel with a prong, yet I am currently training the Foose with treats. Why because it was important to me that she learn what heel meant quickly for our daily walks, and also stop pulling my petite wife around. Foose is for sport or competition as far as I am concerned so I want that excitement that treats and toys brings out.


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## msvette2u

> They find the very idea of someone deciding if they can own the dog that they want to be ridiculous.


Yeah, you're probably right 

As for the answers, there's a few ways I ask the questions, reworded, 1st question that way is "what is your idea of discipline if the dog were to chew something up, potty in the house, etc."
and I often get, smack the dog on the butt/nose. Some are more "remove the dog, take it outside more often".

Further down, there's "are you willing to housetrain, and if so what method would you use". It makes people think a bit more and if there's a discrepancy between those two answers then my radar goes off.
For that question we sometimes do get "show the dog the mess and scold it", but most often people state things like crate training and letting the puppy out more, praise for going outside".

And then there's the "No, I prefer a dog that is housetrained", but I've found that many times people aren't really sure how to housetrain so we give that advice as well.


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## Blanketback

Dainerra said:


> ...find the idea of telling a client which puppy they can own to be stupid.


Ugh, that comment brought back some *serious* bad memories of an arguement I had not too long ago. All it did was confirm to me that the person viewed the puppy as a purchase, nothing more. I eventually said, "So you don't think puppies have individual personalities, they're all the same?" and "So you thing all homes are the same, they'll devote just as much time and energy into the puppies?" and those comments of mine finally ended the conversation. Thankfully, because I don't know how much more I could have taken. But that's the attitude all right.


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## mycobraracr

msvette2u said:


> It makes sense they'd resort to prongs and e-collars to get faster results, because usually you can see the results almost instantaneously. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> My question would be, "If I can train a dog to sit in an hour with a correction collar, then why would I spend two weeks to train it with luring or any other method?"


----------



## deano76

wildo said:


> Is the host of the show actually a dog trainer? I assumed the host was just a normal TV talk show host.


No....he's actually a gardener! He has hosted many gardening shows over here for many years and like a lot of 'celebrities' has jumped on the talk show host bandwagon. I believe he's a dog lover but in no way an expert. That said, I agree with a lot of what he was saying just from another dog lover's perceptive. Cesar Milan is not my cup of tea at all, but each to their own when it comes to training methods. What works for Jack won't necessarily work for Jill.


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## martemchik

You guys know that CM very very rarely suggests the use of a prong collar. He usually controls some crazy aggressive dogs with just that slip lead made out of twine or whatever it is. Now...most times the owners just have no idea what they're doing, and are over reacting to their dog's true issues but still. He really doesn't advocate the need for a prong collar.

The prong/ecollar thing...most people don't use these as tools to train. They don't use them as a means to an end...they use them as the end. I mean, how many times have we seen people come on here and go "my 6 month old FINISHED obedience" or "my dog has these problems, don't know why, we did an 8 week training course when we got it." Most people don't see training as a life long thing. Dog knows: sit, down, shake, roll-over, kind of stays, kind of comes, DONE! So we can sit here and discuss majorities/minorities all we want, at the end of the day we all have our own preferences and experiences that guide our dog training.

Just a note on the whole "no one can tell me I can/can't own a dog." Very true. I probably wouldn't purchase a dog on limited registration, I wouldn't breed anyways, but its just the principle that I paid $xxxx.xx I do with the dog what I please. Same on the rescue side of things, I completely understand why they have their requirements and go through screening potential adopters, but I would no accept going through that process and getting denied due to black/white rules.


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## german shepherd 1600

I dont believe in using pain to train dogs .
Those E collars can burn right through the skin . Ive seen it .


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## gsdraven

Very late to thread but my 2 cents.


catz said:


> It was a quick interview but caused quite a bit of controversy on a british forum I'm a member of


From what I've read, there was quite a bit edited out. 



wildo said:


> Nobody wants to point out that the host seems to have issues with prong collars, chock chains, and e-collars?


Forget about the host... how about the fact that Cesar said he's never seen or used those tools before coming to America but somehow he's here to show the people already using them how to do so properly. 



Olivers mama said:


> 100% treat-based training may work well for a puppy. It does NOT work effectively with all Rescues.
> 
> We have a Rescue - she's 99% obed-trained - as long as there's treats. If not, she flips a digit at us.


Positive reinforcement training using treats does work... especially for rescues. However, it is all about doing so properly. Rate of reinforcement, value of the reinforcement and knowing when to switch those up are key to having a dog listen when training with or without treats. Done incorrectly such as giving a treat _everytime_ the dog does something good will of course give you a dog that doesn't listen without a treat.


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## codmaster

Using treats and pos rein does work BUT it is not as good in training a dog who HAS to obey. 

Also depends on WHAT you arte training - ROLL OVER, BEG, etc. great perhaps!

How about COME under great distraction, or "LEAVE IT" in the case of a rattlesnake?
(How many would trust just Pos Only(ie trets) training in the latter case?)

Proven and also admited by some of the leading pos only advocates.


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## selzer

mycobraracr said:


> msvette2u said:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense they'd resort to prongs and e-collars to get faster results, because usually you can see the results almost instantaneously. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> My question would be, "If I can train a dog to sit in an hour with a correction collar, then why would I spend two weeks to train it with luring or any other method?"
> 
> 
> 
> If it takes an hour to teach SIT with a correction collar, I will stick with luring where I can generally train a reliable sit in 5 minutes.
> 
> If it takes two weeks to train SIT with any method, maybe dog training isn't your thing.
Click to expand...


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> Using treats and pos rein does work BUT it is not as good in training a dog who HAS to obey.
> Also depends on WHAT you arte training - ROLL OVER, BEG, etc. great perhaps!
> How about COME under great distraction, or "LEAVE IT" in the case of a rattlesnake?
> (How many would trust just Pos Only(ie trets) training in the latter case?)


Rattlesnake aversion. I think it's a really good example of when training with a shock collar would make sense. I knew you'd come up with a good example of when PR wasn't the best method of training eventually!


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## mycobraracr

selzer said:


> mycobraracr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it takes an hour to teach SIT with a correction collar, I will stick with luring where I can generally train a reliable sit in 5 minutes.
> 
> If it takes two weeks to train SIT with any method, maybe dog training isn't your thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know this was an analogy right? I highly highly doubt you can train a reliable sit in any situation in five minutes. Thanks for playing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App
Click to expand...


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## GregK

mycobraracr said:


> I highly highly doubt you can train a reliable sit in any situation in five minutes.


5 minutes??? That's preposterous!!!

Takes at least 10 minutes!


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## Olivers mama

gsdraven said:


> Positive reinforcement training using treats does work... *especially for rescues*. However, it is all about doing so properly. Rate of reinforcement, value of the reinforcement and knowing when to switch those up are key to having a dog listen when training with or without treats. Done incorrectly such as giving a treat _everytime_ the dog does something good will of course give you a dog that doesn't listen without a treat.


Yeah right - except how does 1 determine who is a good trainer? Or behaviorist?

1 of these days, I need to start a thread about our rescue adoption & training experience. Our experience doesn't belong in this thread, but I seriously doubt we're in the minority. Rescue told us where to go for "help". We spend way too much $$ for this new-fangled way of training = all treats, no adverse training. Never heard of NILIF until a member of THIS FORUM contacted me & offered to come out to our house & look at / work with this dog. HE is the one - a complete stranger, but a true love for the breed - spent a good amount of time with us, showing us where these so-called 'professionals' had led us astray.

Before that, I would've had CM or VS at our house - ANYthing to help us. It's all well & good that those of you with history of training or of worling with Rescues has been so wonderful for you. It's not always that way. My previous experience showed a dog did not have to be trained 24/7 to be a good dog. People slide toward the likes of CM & VS because they want answers & help -we're not all stupid.


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## jae

Is it not true that some dogs do require a heavier hand and harsher correction than others? One of the puppy tests I know of is sensitivities, and if the dog does not respond to a sensitive area as well as others, then it may be true that the trainer will need to use stronger and more forceful corrections than normal. So, when this guy is whining about CM "punching" a dog in the throat, what background does he have on the dog? Who knows what corrections were given before; these are problem dogs and I automatically think that the corrections that the owners were using were not sufficient, otherwise, the dog would respond to the correction, as they do to CM. Also who knows what editing was done before this "punch", or what corrections the owners and CM have failed with?


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## GregK

Has anyone seen this 'throat punch'? I've seen him do a finger jab but not a closed fist.


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## jae

Show down with Holly is what I am assuming he is talking about. Links all over that video for the first one, second one is the same idea. 

Later in the video, why does no one see this as him going to pet praise the dog, rather than automatically "SNATCHING HER MUZZLE! NO WONDER!"


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## Olivers mama

I will ask again. (And again, I will probably not get an answer).

Just how would any of the pros here have handled the dog biting like that?

Our rescue has done this to me a few times. It hurts like hades. You're not supposed to strike the dog, you can't raise your voice, you can't act dominate...what would YOU do?:crazy:


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## x11

wow what a great source of various viewpoints on training approaches. can i indulge a question; when there were thousands more working dogs on the planet and thousands of more...?? work (lol), how did these handler/dog teams get anything done before electricity was even invented??? riddle me that.

houndsmen, mushers, hunters, herders....had precise control over their dogs mostly large packs running together in open country for a longer period of time than e-collars have been invented.

all the techno-gadgetry works for sure but it is a life-style choice more than a training choice if that makes sense. my dogs will never know what a prong,e...etc is. **** the only time they wear a flat collar and leash is where it is required by law - or training bite-work.


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## Olivers mama

x11 - 

I doubt you'll get an answer. I've been trying for 1 1/2 years to get an answer off 2 GSD forums. What do you do if the dog BITES you!? I can't get a single response...

Oh, we'll bash CM. And we'll say how how the new-fangled training methods are oh, so wonderful. But absolutely NO ONE will tell you how to deal with a dog that wants to bite your hand off.

Give the dog treats? Sned the dog on an all-expense paid trip to Doggie Wonderland? It's all well & good to bash CM. Been in those shoes? Who Knows - because NO ONE has told ME how they would handle a dog that bites them.

I've already left 1 forum because of the idealogic BS, followed by lots of lectures. With not a shread of advice. Just crap. And you people wonder why there are the same old names here? Few new ones?

Because when you ask the hard questions - the pros run for cover. In 2 years, only 1 person has offered to help us. Only 1. Out of how many people on 2 forums? 

Mebbe the next time our rescue doggie bites me, draws blood & causes swelling - I should use a clicker on her or fill her mouth full of treats. I mean really - as long as it's not your bloodied hand - what do you care? Go ahead & bash CM for what he did. Again, it wasn't your bloodied hand...


----------



## bocron

Ok, I can't get the video to play (will try again in a few, slow internet tonight for some reason), but how weird that it's Alan T. I was totally thinking about him this morning (or rather the other show he used to host about gardening makeovers) and wondering what ever happened to him. I'm guessing it's the same guy, how many Alan Titchmarshes could there be?


----------



## selzer

Oliver's mama, I think that no one wants to address that issue because if you take their advice, and are seriously injured, then they will feel responsible to a point. Most of the people on these sites are not professional dog-behaviorists or professional dog-trainers. If the dog is causing injuries to you, then you need a behaviorist and or trainer that can evaluate the dog and your management style and body language, and work with you to develop a plan for your dog. 

It is like playing with fire to diagnose a dog sght un-seen. 

We can direct you to the Leerburg site where I believe there is a grade-scale for dog bites, and where your dog fits on the scale.

We can tell you that there are a lot of homeless dogs out there, and a dog that bites the hand that feeds it needs to take a one-way trip to the vet -- I doubt that would go over well with some members, and others would totally agree. But WE DON'T MATTER. It is your dog, your responsibility, and you have to make that call. 

So what you want is for advice over the internet on how to manage a dog that bites you. 

Personally, I do not think we should tell others to euthanize their dog, because we are not there to determine the severity of the bite, nor the circumstances behind the bite. Over an internet forum, all we really should do is encourage you to do a complete physical check up on the dog, and seek a good behaviorist and trainer to work with you and the dog. Beyond that, we would be working on our perception of your perception of what is going on. 

It is an unfair question for ordinary pet-owners. 

It is like trying to get advice from a parenting forum when your kid is suicidal. You need a professional.


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## bocron

Olivers mama said:


> Because when you ask the hard questions - the pros run for cover.


Durn straight a pro won't answer you on a forum. If they did then I'd question their ethics and/or experience to be honest. Like my husband is forever telling fellow trainers that we work with, if the most experienced guy in the world calls us and asks an opinion, we tell him the same thing we tell the lady in the next town with her first dog, we have to see the dog in order to make an assessment, anything other than a first hand evaluation is unprofessional and irresponsible to say the least. 

Most of the "pros" or experienced trainers on this or any forum are happy to give advice on training a new behavior, assisting with crate training and general manners, but when it comes to an issue that could cause serious injury to an owner/handler or damage to the dog itself, then no, I wouldn't expect to see any pro that is really concerned with the outcome hand out advice on here. Many will state what experience they've had with a similar sounding case, or what they would guess could be behind the behavior, but that is generally the extent of what they can ethically hand out. 
If nothing else, by being a professional their hands are tied in that if they gave advice that was used (correctly or incorrectly) and the results were an injury than in many states they can be considered liable.


----------



## x11

Olivers mama said:


> x11 -
> 
> I doubt you'll get an answer. I've been trying for 1 1/2 years to get an answer off 2 GSD forums. What do you do if the dog BITES you!? I can't get a single response...
> 
> Oh, we'll bash CM. And we'll say how how the new-fangled training methods are oh, so wonderful. But absolutely NO ONE will tell you how to deal with a dog that wants to bite your hand off.
> 
> Give the dog treats? Sned the dog on an all-expense paid trip to Doggie Wonderland? It's all well & good to bash CM. Been in those shoes? Who Knows - because NO ONE has told ME how they would handle a dog that bites them.
> 
> I've already left 1 forum because of the idealogic BS, followed by lots of lectures. With not a shread of advice. Just crap. And you people wonder why there are the same old names here? Few new ones?
> 
> Because when you ask the hard questions - the pros run for cover. In 2 years, only 1 person has offered to help us. Only 1. Out of how many people on 2 forums?
> 
> Mebbe the next time our rescue doggie bites me, draws blood & causes swelling - I should use a clicker on her or fill her mouth full of treats. I mean really - as long as it's not your bloodied hand - what do you care? Go ahead & bash CM for what he did. Again, it wasn't your bloodied hand...


 
hi it is unfortunate if you are in this position. i think youmight be being a bit harsh on forum people for not answering tho, given the consequences of what could go wrong. i am no expert but if i was i would not give direct advice to a specific question like that.

not trying to be insensitive or downplay what you must be going thru. i will say if you can afford it please go pay a proffesional for advice. it is different to getting free advice on a public forum. i wish you luck and hope things work out. at some point you have to ask what is best for you. yours and the dog in question.

good luck and hope you don't get too angry at people that would prolly love to help and feel yr pain but are too scared to get involved.


----------



## GregK

selzer said:


> and a dog that bites the hand that feeds it needs to take a one-way trip to the vet --


Disagree in a big way!! To many variables to make a blanket statement like this.

Referring to what Cesar did in this video: nice way to induce a dog to bite you. Epic fail on his part! :thumbsdown:


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## Cassidy's Mom

I would not own a dog that bites me - I'm talking about a real bite with intent to harm, and I assume that's what the question refers to. I've been bitten accidentally, (not seriously) I've been nipped numerous times, but none of my dogs have ever intentionally bit me or anyone else. I can handle reactivity to other dogs, but I'm not comfortable with aggression towards humans, especially to the humans in the dog's household. If the aggression was only towards outsiders, and circumstances could always be managed to keep everyone safe, maybe, but not towards the dog's own family.

If if got the dog from a rescue, I would return it to the rescue. If I got the dog from a breeder I would return it to the breeder. That is just not something I'm willing to work through.

And I totally agree with GregK about the video of Cesar. He did everything wrong, provoking a fearful, insecure dog into biting him - he darned well should have seen that coming, because I'm hardly an expert, and *I* did! If the dog in the video were mine she would not behave that way around food because I wouldn't have made the NUMEROUS mistakes that the owners did, apparently for years, that caused her issues. I've known about NILIF for over 10 years, and have implemented it immediately with my current 2 and previous 2 dogs, when we got each of them as puppies. I run a pretty tight ship, at least until I'm sure it's no longer necessary, and _then_ I loosen up, I don't wait to impose control until _after_ I'm starting to see problems. My philosophy about raising dogs is that a problem prevented is a problem that I will never have to fix later, and one of the things I'm the most proactive about is teaching my dogs to trust me around their food, their toys, anything they value, so there is never any need to guard them from me. 

Does everything always go perfectly? Of course not, I'm always learning and I probably always will be, no matter how many more dogs I have in my lifetime, because each of them teaches me something new. And then I take what I've learned and use it with the next dog going forward.


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## Olivers mama

OK - we can all see that CM provoked the dog. Course, he WAS there to see the dog in action, so he HAD to provoke, IMO. I guess what I have the hardest time dealing with, is all the bashing of what he did. Yet, when you ask what someone else would do in the same position, you get nothing.

I asked for advice 1 - 1/2 years ago. I got lectured, but that's it. We'd had this dog about 6-7 months when the first bite occurred. BTW - she only bit me, not any male. She prefers men. Judging from her physical scars & her overall actions, we guess that she'd been abused by a female. The Rescue never returned our calls, so there was no "send her back" option. And to be honest, we'd already fallen for this big lunkhead. We just knew she'd be PTS if we gave her back. And we were just stubborn enough to want to give her a chance. 

Point is, when asked how anyone here would handle a biting dog, everyone skirts the issue. Bad-mouth CM & the constant woulda-coulda-shoulda. But no suggestions as to how to handle it. And liability for 'advice' on a computer forum? Are you kidding me? Who's gonna sue a screen name? That's just a cop-out.

We hired 2 trainers - who knew nothing about NILIF & treat-trained only. Following their advice, we wound up with a dog that only responded to treats. We had a "behaviorist" here. Expensive. When she started talking about Ziva's "relationship" with her mama dog, my lower jaw hit the floor. Before I gave this floozy her check (I kept my end of the bargain) - I asked the dog to get on the couch. Lie her head down on a pillow. Then I asked the dog to tell her life history. The "behaviorist" asked what I was doing. I told her I was showing her the same BS she'd been showing us. And then asked her to leave. See, it's all well & good to tell someone to hire this trainer or that behaviorist, but there's no real screening process. No degrees are needed. Luck of the draw. Obviously, we had no luck, even tho we spent over 3K for these so-called 'professionals'.

Fast-forward to now. We've had her 2 years. This dog has turned into the most beautiful, loving dog anyone could ask for. When I come home from a chemo treatment, I usually lie on the floor in front of the TV. I have a 16-yr-old cat (Oliver) that will lie down about 6" from my face. And an 88-lb lunkhead who lies right beside me, sharing my pillow. My hands are now all over her face & mouth - it is I who brushes her teeth. She's come full circle. Still needs work - I understand the lifelong commitment. But she's safe & she knows that. She's home. 

Point is - we could've shaved months off this curve, had someone been willing to give us advice as to how THEY would handle a fear-biter. I mean, you give advice on everything else. But we made it anyway & are better for having done so.

Point is - & I'll keep asking until someone can explain to me otherwise. If you're willing to bash another trainer while, at the same time, refuse to say how YOU would handle the situation...well then, I guess the silence speaks volumes. If the only reason you respond to a CM thread is to bash him, until & unless you're willing to offer an alternative, the bashing means nothing to me.

Actually, I'm GLAD no one would help us (except 1 young man - a perfect stranger - contacted me via PM & showed up at our house a few days later to assess & assist) HE taught us about NILIF. Because we would've wound up getting rid of this dog. And she would've been PTS - no one wants to adopt a biting dog. And she deserved better than that. So does / did Holly. The fact that CM took her in speaks volumes about the man. Funny, I don't like him, either. But at least I can give credit where credit is due.


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## codmaster

Good point!


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## Cassidy's Mom

Olivers mama said:


> OK - we can all see that CM provoked the dog. Course, he WAS there to see the dog in action, so he HAD to provoke, IMO. I guess what I have the hardest time dealing with, is all the bashing of what he did. Yet, when you ask what someone else would do in the same position, you get nothing.


There was a previous recent thread where many people have already said how they would have dealt with Holly. I don't think it's necessary to rehash that exact same conversation all over again here, you should be able to find the thread if you'd like to read it and haven't seen it yet. There was even a video posted that pointed out all the warning signs in advance of the bite, and at least one link where an expert in canine aggression said _exactly_ what he would have done instead. And no, it's really wasn't necessary to provoke her to bite, she was clearly showing her discomfort well in advance of the bite, which should have shown him what her threshold was. Once that threshold is determined, you work from there, there was no need to push past that point. He KNEW that she would bite if provoked, because she already HAD bitten. The only point of doing what he did was the drama factor, for television ratings. 

I'm sorry you've had so many problems with your girl, and I wish you had been able to find competent help sooner. Good luck with her, you've taken on a challenge that many people would not.


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## Olivers mama

Whatever the posts on a previous thread...this thread was started anew. Since the question was asked, 'How would YOU deal with this?', I don't think I should have to go to another thread to find the answer. I don't "play well" with avoidance. If I ask a question, it's because I'm looking for an answer. And that answer shouldn't be - "go look on another thread".

Mute point, I guess. But hey, that's me - always trying to make a point when it's impossible to do so.

Thanks for the well-wishes on our overgrown pup - <-------- I mean, seriously, who could PTS this playful, starving-for-love dog carrying her sock monkey? Don't know that I'd ever do this Rescue thing again, but am happy we did this time. Then again - provided we can beat this cancer - we've learned a LOT about adopting an abused rescue. Puppies may be easier, but maybe we're meant to handle the tougher ones. At any rate - we wouldn't trade this girl for anything.

Funny - when my oncologist asks if I want anything for pain or an anti-depressant....I just say 'No' - I've got my 4 house kitties & a loving GSD. Add my hubby to that - I'm good to go. I have all the Furry Valium I need.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I wasn't trying to be evasive, it's just that we seem to be continually rehashing the same Cesar debates over and over again on the board, and the previous Holly thread has several hundred posts.  I'll try to look for it tonight when I get home and either link to the posts I was referring to, or copy them here. I thought it was pretty interesting. 

BTW, can I ask which rescue you got her from? You can PM me if you prefer. I suspect I know, but I'd be interested to find out if I'm right.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Here's are a couple of my posts from the other thread - one of them has the video showing a breakdown of Holly's behavior in slowmo:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-should-filed-agained-him-2.html#post2590959

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-should-filed-agained-him-3.html#post2592070

The alternative to provoking a fearful dog to the point that it bites: 

Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: September 2012



> How would I address this issue? That is a longer post, but it would start with not pushing the dog beyond the first warning signals, but using those to establish the parameters of the problem behavior and then proceeding, gaining the dog's confidence and slowly desensitizing the dog to the particular behavioral issue and pressing those parameters slowly back to help the dog make the right choices-and then reinforce those choices.


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## blackshep

Speaking of Cesar, did anyone hear about this?

‘Dog Whisperer’ Cesar Millan Reveals Suicide Attempt - ABC News 

Sorry if it's old news, I hadn't heard. I hope he's felling better now.


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## Questforfire

qbchottu said:


> Interested to hear:
> How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues _without_ the use of any correction devices?


My ex was a police dog handler for ten years and a police dog instructor, with two tactical firearms support dogs, for fifteen years in a UK police force. He reliably trained all his dogs without the use of prong or ecollars.


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## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's are a couple of my posts from the other thread - one of them has the video showing a breakdown of Holly's behavior in slowmo:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-should-filed-agained-him-2.html#post2590959
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-should-filed-agained-him-3.html#post2592070
> 
> The alternative to provoking a fearful dog to the point that it bites:
> 
> Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: September 2012


 
I read the last link document and it certainly sounds like mr. crosby is a true expert and can "probably" fix any problem aggressive dog. 

He clearly is much more highly qualified than uncertified Cesar, that is for sure. Mr Crosby even quotes a few of the organizations that do certify trainers and implies that the paper certifications would ensure (imply?) that this piece of paper makes them more qualified to "fix" aggressive dogs. That is a good thing to know when looking for a trainer to help with a food aggressive (or other aggression) dog.

It also does sound (to me anyway) like he is one of the positive only trainers that frown on any "punishment" whatsoever.


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## GusGus

mycobraracr said:


> It looked like CM got cornered an was very uncomfortable. I actually felt bad for him. I disagree with a lot of what host was saying. It seemed as if they only brought Him on the the show to attack him. I'm not really a CM fan but this didn't seem right.
> 
> As for the use of tools. They are tools, why not use them? Not every dog can be trained purely positive and not every dog can take corrections. I thought that's why we have all these different training techniques and tools. So we can modify styles to fit each individual dog.


I agree with you 100% 
There are somethings that my dog will absolutely not respond to with purely positive training. 

This host's hostile attitude toward CM was completely out of line. Whether he likes his methods or not..


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## selzer

I think there are some dog/handler teams that can't achieve their goals purely positive. Might a different owner/handler achieve that goal with the dog in a positive manner? I think probably. And, I think that some handlers can get positive methods to work with some of their dogs, and not with others, but that doesn't mean that positive methods would not work with the dog, just not with that handler. 

But that is just an opinion. I think a good trainer measures the handler as much as the dog when suggesting how they handle the dog.


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## GSD13

I think Cesar is very good & that host is a MORON, jealousy gets the best of people.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I'm so tired of every single criticism of Cesar Milan being attributed to jealousy by his fans, as if he's perfect and there couldn't possibly be any other reason not to approve of everything he does. C'mon - seriously?


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## codmaster

Seems to be the same with all "famous" trainers. 

Either they are nearly a "god" and can "fix" every doggy problem or they are mean, nasty to dogs and abuse them or just clueless mand stupid.

Generally thinking, I really doubt that there ever will exist a single method/approach to solving every problem of mis behaving dogs. 

To me, a "pro" trainer has a wide variety of "tools" at their disposal and choice and can adjust which one or ones that they pull out in any specific individual case.


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## Olivers mama

codmaster said:


> Seems to be the same with all "famous" trainers.
> 
> Either they are nearly a "god" and can "fix" every doggy problem or they are mean, nasty to dogs and abuse them or just clueless mand stupid.
> 
> Generally thinking, I really doubt that there ever will exist a single method/approach to solving every problem of mis behaving dogs.
> 
> To me, a "pro" trainer has a wide variety of "tools" at their disposal and choice and can adjust which one or ones that they pull out in any specific individual case.


Heck - I'd be happy if we could CM without the animosity that comes every single time this man's name is brought up. He's not a God Amongst Dog trainers. nor is he a villian. Every method should fit somewhere in the middle. We have a dog that's been trained - by outside trainers, then us, as we were told - with treats. To the point she'd only respond if there was a treat. 

Our society has changed. And many iof the child-rearing methods have trickled down to training dogs. Spare the Rod & Spoil the Dog. If it sits on cue, please have a steak dinner ready for it. Just as sparing all children from the 'rod' doesn't work on all kids, so too - IMO - is the current all-positive dog training methods. When we removed all treats & used the prong to correct her horrible pulling on the leash, Ziva learned to heal correctly. She still gets treats, but nowhere near as often as we were "trained" to do by these expensive trainers. And she's a much better dog, now that she's learned she has boundaries & that there are consequences when she misbehaves. Expecially when she bites. I have Zero tolerance for that. When you're dealing with a teenage or adult rescue, it is a WHOLE lot different than, say, using a clicker on a puppy. puppies are clean slates. Older dogs have baggage.

CM has been known to be physical wuith difficult dogs. VS is the polar opposite, as she uses only treats. Somewhere in the middle fits us. I respect both, I just pick & choose what methods work for a particular situation with this particular dog.


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## Questforfire

codmaster said:


> Seems to be the same with all "famous" trainers.
> 
> Either they are nearly a "god" and can "fix" every doggy problem or they are mean, nasty to dogs and abuse them or just clueless mand stupid.
> 
> *Generally thinking, I really doubt that there ever will exist a single method/approach to solving every problem of mis behaving dogs.
> 
> To me, a "pro" trainer has a wide variety of "tools" at their disposal and choice and can adjust which one or ones that they pull out in any specific individual case.*


Agreed! Excellent post.


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## codmaster

Olivers mama said:


> Heck - I'd be happy if we could CM without the animosity that comes every single time this man's name is brought up. He's not a God Amongst Dog trainers. nor is he a villian. Every method should fit somewhere in the middle. We have a dog that's been trained - by outside trainers, then us, as we were told - with treats. To the point she'd only respond if there was a treat.
> 
> Our society has changed. And many iof the child-rearing methods have trickled down to training dogs. Spare the Rod & Spoil the Dog. If it sits on cue, please have a steak dinner ready for it. Just as sparing all children from the 'rod' doesn't work on all kids, so too - IMO - is the current all-positive dog training methods. When we removed all treats & used the prong to correct her horrible pulling on the leash, Ziva learned to heal correctly. She still gets treats, but nowhere near as often as we were "trained" to do by these expensive trainers. And she's a much better dog, now that she's learned she has boundaries & that there are consequences when she misbehaves. Expecially when she bites. I have Zero tolerance for that. When you're dealing with a teenage or adult rescue, it is a WHOLE lot different than, say, using a clicker on a puppy. puppies are clean slates. Older dogs have baggage.
> 
> CM has been known to be physical wuith difficult dogs. VS is the polar opposite, as she uses only treats. Somewhere in the middle fits us. I respect both, I just pick & choose what methods work for a particular situation with this particular dog.


Agree!

Some dogs with some personalities will learn and obey very well with literally no physical corrections but others need a gentle reminder now and then who is on the handle side of the leash.

If anyone hasn't experienced a dog who is stubborn and wants to do things their way - then they would never realize this fact of doggy life.

Before one critizes a physical correction or even a tough tug on the leash - try handling a dog who might decide one day to "come up the leash". Or try handling another dog who has already bitten his owner/handler and has the ability and temperament to do so again. 

Or even just a VERY independent dog who is extremely self confident and doesn't "need" another leader - the opposite of so many dogs today who are dependent on their human leader.

OTOH, if a handler gets the first kind of compliant, almost naturally obedient submissive dog, then wonders can be acomplished without a physical correction and with the use of treats and praise.


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## GSD13

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm so tired of every single criticism of Cesar Milan being attributed to jealousy by his fans, as if he's perfect and there couldn't possibly be any other reason not to approve of everything he does. C'mon - seriously?


All I said was that Cesar is very good, of course you would interpret that to mean that "he's perfect".:rolleyes2: I also stated that many people who do criticise him do it out of jealousy. That, obviously is just my opinion because I don't see what he does that causes a certain group of people to lash out with such vitriol against him or his training methods. If the haters out there are so much better have them make their own show & prove it. I agree with Olivers mama & codmaster, there is NO one way to train a dog... or any animal or human for that matter but what Cesar does works well for him & many many others out there. I thank him for showing the everyday Joe how to get a dog to become well balanced so it will listen & behave accordingly.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GSD13 said:


> All I said was that Cesar is very good, of course you would interpret that to mean that "he's perfect".:rolleyes2: I also stated that many people who do criticise him do it out of jealousy.


You misunderstood my point.  I didn't think YOU meant that he's perfect, it's just that when there's ANY criticism of him whatsoever people flip out and immediately jump to his defense as if there isn't anything that he's not doing absolutely perfectly. How dare you criticize Cesar Milan! And very, very frequently they attribute that criticism to jealously - again, as if there couldn't possibly be any other explanation. You're new here, so you haven't read and/or participated in the dozens of Cesar threads going back years and years, like I have. After a while a pattern begins to emerge. Well actually, the pattern didn't take any time at all to emerge and hasn't changed in the slightest in all that time, in all those discussions. 

Frankly, it baffles me. If he's not a perfect trainer, (excuse me,_ behaviorist _) then some criticism of him and his methods would be warranted, yes? But if the only possible reason for criticism could be jealously, then he must be doing everything perfectly and no criticism is ever warranted. See how that follows logically?

But I also haven't read anything negative about him that I thought smacked even the slightest bit of jealously. I really don't get where that idea comes from, but a lot of people certainly seem convinced of it. Some examples of people whose criticism is clearly and solely driven by jealously would be extremely helpful in furthering that argument.


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## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You misunderstood my point.  I didn't think YOU meant that he's perfect, it's just that when there's ANY criticism of him whatsoever people flip out and immediately jump to his defense as if there isn't anything that he's not doing absolutely perfectly. How dare you criticize Cesar Milan! And very, very frequently they attribute that criticism to jealously - again, as if there couldn't possibly be any other explanation. You're new here, so you haven't read and/or participated in the dozens of Cesar threads going back years and years, like I have. After a while a pattern begins to emerge. Well actually, the pattern didn't take any time at all to emerge and hasn't changed in the slightest in all that time, in all those discussions.
> 
> Frankly, it baffles me. If he's not a perfect trainer, (excuse me,_ behaviorist _) then some criticism of him and his methods would be warranted, yes? But if the only possible reason for criticism could be jealously, then he must be doing everything perfectly and no criticism is ever warranted. See how that follows logically?
> 
> But I also haven't read anything negative about him that I thought smacked even the slightest bit of jealously. I really don't get where that idea comes from, but a lot of people certainly seem convinced of it. Some examples of people whose criticism is clearly and solely driven by jealously would be extremely helpful in furthering that argument.


If you were to read the various and sundry threads critical of Ceasar shows it is very obvious that some of the people have never trained a hard, aggressive dog in their lives and have no clue as to what this entails. How about the messages that mention what they "know" goes on behaind the scenes of the TV show?

I would love to see VS try the Husky or Malamute (can't remember off hand which breed it was) that came up the leash at Cesar in one often quoted show.

Wonder what treat she would have given that dog?


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## GSD13

GSD13 said:


> All I said was that Cesar is very good, of course you would interpret that to mean that "he's perfect".:rolleyes2: I also stated that many people who do criticise him do it out of jealousy. *That, obviously is just my opinion because I don't see what he does that causes a certain group of people to lash out with such vitriol against him or his training methods. *




Cassidy's Mom, I understand what you're saying but I think you left out the sentence that followed my original statement (highlighted above), very NY Times like by the way.  I don't understand all the hubbub about what Cesar does, I personally think he's very good @ what he does & he helps the regular person to understand his/her dog. Do I think he's infallible, of course not, but he's actually providing a service because many of these dogs would have been put to sleep if it wasn't for him & who here would have preferred that? I would think NO one, so is he hurting the dogs?, I don't see it & I've watched many of his shows. Is he helping the owners to be more able to control their dogs, I say yes. The reason I mentioned jealousy is because I don't see what he's doing as wrong, but that's just me, if people, like you say aren't jealous of him then why such hate??? Again, I am not saying Cesar cannot be criticised, I'm just saying I don't agree with the crticisms.


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## selzer

GSD13, the guy you called a MORON comes from a country where no one uses prong collars or e-collars. Somehow they manage to train dogs without using those devises. Their country bans them, so the opinions there are overwhelmingly negative toward such devices. I think it is kind of unfair to call someone a moron, considering that is someone who wouldn't be functional, and this guy actually hosts a talk show and therefore cannot be a moron. 

On the other hand, Cesar comes from a place that doesn't use those methods either. But since he has been in the US, he has adopted these methods, and the talk show host knew that. So it was really a set up. Cesar should have known that. Really. 

I find such devices unnecessary with my dogs. And I think Cesar's take on dog behavior theory, is based on some outdated erroneous studies of wolves living in captive packs. I just don't think it applies well to dogs, at least in my experience it has no place. I suppose there may be some crazy, high drive, high energy, high aggressive working dogs that either need a tougher stand, or have been conditioned from the beginning to require a tougher handler. I only know that the one dog that I had that was super high drive, high energy, nutbrain, and aggressive, I tried the compulsive alpha balony with him and it was a total flop. When he was four, I got a softee and learned to train using other approaches, and the first dog did respond to them better than the methods that Cesar has embraced.


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## Olivers mama

codmaster said:


> I would love to see VS try the Husky or Malamute (can't remember off hand which breed it was) that came up the leash at Cesar in one often quoted show.
> 
> *Wonder what treat she would have given that dog?*


OMG - I had to LMAO when I read this - Thank You! :laugh:

I get it that there are different training methods. IMO, I don't think people should be bad-mouthed because they don't use strictly positive methods like treats & clickers. Which is what commonly occurs here. From what I've read, the general consensus (in our new society) is positive-only training.

That's part of the reason we no longer work with local trainers. Thousands of dollars spent between 2 of them & it was worthless. When a K9 handler offered to evaluate - & then work with - our Big Rescue, we jumped at the offer. 1 - Because he knows dogs & specifically, GSDs. 2 - Most (not all - don't bite my head off) K9s are trained under a variety of circumstances. Not even close to 100% positive training. Additionally, no one wanted to tackle our 90 lb baby's biting problem. And, if you think I was gonna give her a steak dinner after biting me, you're wrong. He worked with her - including getting her to come up at me, mouth open, teeth barred - for a few weeks. He included some tips for her basic obedience, like my pet peeve - a dog pulling on the leash.

It's been a few months & she's MUCH improved. She's learned her boundaries. Only once has she come up at me & that was easy to stop. Now, had we adopted a new, young puppy, this whole process would've been much easier. Maybe clickers tickers & treats would've worked.

All I'm saying is that, unless you've dealt with a huge, aggressive, biting dog - please don't bad-mouth another's way of training. After all, there were years & years of Basic training that involved nothing more than a choke chain & a leather leash. No abuse, just rules.

As we've become more complacent (IMO ONLY) in our rules for child-rearing, we have followed that thinking down the ladder for our dogs. I even read (somewhere today, can't remember where) that the countries having the worst-behaved kids also have the worst-behaved dogs. The U.S. ranked pretty high on that list. I don't want ill-behaved kids OR dogs & don't like being around either one.

As a side note - I don't care if CM is "certified" as a "behaviorist" or not. From what I've personally experienced, that shingle hanging outside an trainer's home means little more than Ziva's turds to me. I want to see results, not someone patting themselves on their backs.

 I would REALLY like to see VS work with the dogs that CM has & see which method works better for high-strung, stubborn dogs that bite.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> GSD13, the guy you called a MORON comes from a country where no one uses prong collars or e-collars. Somehow they manage to train dogs without using those devises. Their country bans them, so the opinions there are overwhelmingly negative toward such devices. I think it is kind of unfair to call someone a moron, considering that is someone who wouldn't be functional, and this guy actually hosts a talk show and *therefore cannot be a moron. Oh!*
> 
> On the other hand, *Cesar comes from a place that doesn't use those methods either. *But since he has been in the US, he has adopted these methods, and the talk show host knew that. So it was really a set up. Cesar should have known that. Really.
> 
> I find such devices unnecessary with my dogs. And I think Cesar's take on dog behavior theory, is based on some outdated erroneous studies of wolves living in captive packs. I just don't think it applies well to dogs, at least in my experience it has no place. I suppose there may be some *crazy, high drive, high energy, high aggressive working dogs that either need a tougher stand, or have been conditioned from the beginning to require a tougher handler*. I only know that the one dog that I had that was super high drive, high energy, nutbrain, and aggressive, I tried the compulsive alpha balony with him and it was a total flop. When he was four, I got a softee and learned to train using other approaches, and the first dog did respond to them better than the methods that Cesar has embraced.


 
Heh! Heh!

How about a US show dog from a very high ranked show kennel?


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## KayleeGSD

When it comes to any show you are seeing high lights of the story. Second you are seeing different angles too, and you are not able to take the scene into actual full view. We were not there in person... 

Regardless when people watch a tv show even though there is a clear warning to not attempt these techniques yourself... Consult a professional... Cesar Milian said himself it is just a way and it is not the only way... I do not see any popular trainer as the dog god who can fix any problem with any dog. There is one simple fact that you have MANY ways to correct issues. 

I will bring up a interesting case of Victoria Stilwell and Beniji...

"THIS DOG SHOULD BE PUT DOWN".... By Phone! - YouTube

No method is fail proof. I do not think this dog should have been put down. I bet if this dog was re-homed with the full knowledge of what had occurred to someone who can rehabilitate dogs he might of had a chance. No trainer is perfect every one makes mistakes. It is easy to point the finger when unfortunate things happen like Beniji. I can understand why they decided to put the dog down even though I disagree with it. 

Yet Victoria Stilwell has had tons of success with many dogs and people. So has Cesar Milian. They both have their ways. Some things I agree with and other things I do not. I use what I think is best for me and my dog. In the end it is up to us to figure out what is the best way for our dogs. If I do not know then I will research and contact people who do know and go with a method I feel is right for us.


----------



## selzer

Olivers mama said:


> OMG - I had to LMAO when I read this - Thank You! :laugh:
> 
> I get it that there are different training methods. IMO, I don't think people should be bad-mouthed because they don't use strictly positive methods like treats & clickers. Which is what commonly occurs here. From what I've read, the general consensus (in our new society) is positive-only training.
> 
> That's part of the reason we no longer work with local trainers. Thousands of dollars spent between 2 of them & it was worthless. When a K9 handler offered to evaluate - & then work with - our Big Rescue, we jumped at the offer. 1 - Because he knows dogs & specifically, GSDs. 2 - Most (not all - don't bite my head off) K9s are trained under a variety of circumstances. Not even close to 100% positive training. Additionally, no one wanted to tackle our 90 lb baby's biting problem. And, if you think I was gonna give her a steak dinner after biting me, you're wrong. He worked with her - including getting her to come up at me, mouth open, teeth barred - for a few weeks. He included some tips for her basic obedience, like my pet peeve - a dog pulling on the leash.
> 
> It's been a few months & she's MUCH improved. She's learned her boundaries. Only once has she come up at me & that was easy to stop. Now, had we adopted a new, young puppy, this whole process would've been much easier. Maybe clickers tickers & treats would've worked.
> 
> All I'm saying is that, unless you've dealt with a huge, aggressive, biting dog - please don't bad-mouth another's way of training. After all, there were years & years of Basic training that involved nothing more than a choke chain & a leather leash. No abuse, just rules.
> 
> As we've become more complacent (IMO ONLY) in our rules for child-rearing, we have followed that thinking down the ladder for our dogs. I even read (somewhere today, can't remember where) that the countries having the worst-behaved kids also have the worst-behaved dogs. The U.S. ranked pretty high on that list. I don't want ill-behaved kids OR dogs & don't like being around either one.
> 
> As a side note - I don't care if CM is "certified" as a "behaviorist" or not. From what I've personally experienced, that shingle hanging outside an trainer's home means little more than Ziva's turds to me. I want to see results, not someone patting themselves on their backs.
> 
> I would REALLY like to see VS work with the dogs that CM has & see which method works better for high-strung, stubborn dogs that bite.


Actually, here in the US, and on this site, prong collars and e-collars are pretty much the norm. PetsMart won't use them, but no one cites PetsMart as dog-training gurus. 

In fact, if you say something like prong collars are unnecessary or e-collars are inhumane people on this site will jump all in your shtuff, and fast. And then the mods will give YOU a warning. Something like inciting a riot. 

But I have a question for you: Do you get the impression that dogs on the whole are better behave in England or in the US? 

For myself, I don't know how you get worse behaved that the dogs in the US. And every training collar under the sun is employed here. 

I think that the majority of dog bites happen from fear aggressive dogs. One can make progress with a fear-aggressive dog by being positive, consistent, and gaining the dog's trust by being a good leader, not overwhelming the dog right out of the box. Whether or not you use a prong collar for such a dog, if you cover the rest of the good leadership, you should make progress. No, you do not _need_ a prong collar for a biting dog. And it is possible that a prong collar would be counter-productive. 

Treats are a tool. The idea of giving a dog a steak dinner after it bites you, shows how you really do not understand positive training at all.


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## GSD13

selzer said:


> GSD13, the guy you called a MORON comes from a country where no one uses prong collars or e-collars. Somehow they manage to train dogs without using those devises. Their country bans them, so the opinions there are overwhelmingly negative toward such devices. *I think it is kind of unfair to call someone a moron, considering that is someone who wouldn't be functional, and this guy actually hosts a talk show and therefore cannot be a moron.*


Really??? because you have a tv show means you MUST be functional & therefore CANNOT be considered a MORON, I guess that all depends on your definition of functional. I personally think he's a MORON but hey, what do I know I'm just an American.:thumbup:


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## selzer

GSD13 said:


> Really??? because you have a tv show means you MUST be functional & therefore CANNOT be considered a MORON, I guess that all depends on your definition of functional. I personally think he's a MORON but hey, what do I know I'm just an American.:thumbup:


I am just going by the definition of moron: "_Psychology_ A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."

I really think that using terms like moron and idiot mostly indicates the intelligence of the poster, moreso than the person of whom the poster posts.


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## GSD13

selzer said:


> I am just going by the definition of moron: "_Psychology_ A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."


That definition fits that tv host to a TEE!!! I guess it doesn't say much about his audience.


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## PuppyKono

"Well we dont beat our children." :headbang:

Ahh so many things wrong with this interview... First he doesn't beat the dogs he does a quick touch so that the dog actually focuses instead of staying in one mood. Second the whole comment about "Well we dont put these tools on our children" Well dogs are not children! Theyre dogs... Yes people dont use the tools correctly but when they do use it its that touch connection to send a message to the dog to alert it or its telling it snap out of that mood or listen. We dont beat our children because we can communicate to kids to tell them what right and wrong. There are many ways to teach a dog but when they dont get the message you cant always use food and you cant use your high pitch happy voice because it doesn't work all the time. 
I think they were just thinking about normal everyday dogs that behave and dont have aggression problems. (Did they even watch a couple of his shows) Dogs with very aggressive behaviors have to be dealt with. Just like how people go to the Psychologist for help but only dogs can't communicate and we cant communicate with them. (Unless someone can speak dog  ) I mean think of all the dogs that have been saved from being killed due to the aggressive behavior. Not every dog is the same just like not every person is the same. Maybe if they took the time to learn what a PRONG collar was and not call it a collar with spikes on it.. more people wouldn't be thinking it was a torture device. 
Some people need to get educated about these issues and not act like people try to harm their dogs on an everyday basis.


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## selzer

It is hard to understand the need to be educated on something that your government has banned due to its perception as being inhumane.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> *Actually, here in the US*, and on this site, *prong collars and e-collars are pretty much the norm.* PetsMart won't use them, but no one cites PetsMart as dog-training gurus.
> 
> In fact, if you say something like prong collars are unnecessary or e-collars are inhumane people on this site will jump all in your shtuff, and fast. And then the mods will give YOU a warning. Something like inciting a riot.
> 
> But I have a question for you: Do you get the impression that dogs on the whole are better behave in England or in the US?
> 
> For myself, I don't know how you get worse behaved that the dogs in the US. And every training collar under the sun is employed here.
> 
> I think that the majority of dog bites happen from fear aggressive dogs. One can make progress with a fear-aggressive dog by being positive, consistent, and gaining the dog's trust by being a good leader, not overwhelming the dog right out of the box. Whether or not you use a prong collar for such a dog, if you cover the rest of the good leadership, you should make progress. No, you do not _need_ a prong collar for a biting dog. And it is possible that a prong collar would be counter-productive.
> 
> Treats are a tool. The idea of giving a dog a steak dinner after it bites you, shows how you really do not understand positive training at all.
> [/IMG]


Can you mention where you got this idea? What are you basing this statement on? The vast majority of dog trainers in the US do NOT use a prong.

I am assuming that you are not too familar with the US and that is understandable.


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## KayleeGSD

codmaster said:


> Can you mention where you got this idea? What are you basing this statement on? The vast majority of dog trainers in the US do NOT use a prong.
> 
> I am assuming that you are not too familar with the US and that is understandable.


Yes I would like to know the answer to this question as well.


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## codmaster

BTW, I also don't really care what a foreign country TV host thinks anyway, esp. one from a far away country. 

Who obviously is not all that familar with the US and it's many, many diverse ways of doing things, as well as our freedom of speech and expression, and the ability to think and choose each person's own best method of doing things.

Just my own free opinion, of course.


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## Questforfire

codmaster said:


> BTW, I also don't really care what a foreign country TV host thinks anyway, esp. one from a far away country.
> 
> Who obviously is not all that familar with the US and it's many, many diverse ways of doing things, as well as our freedom of speech and expression, and the ability to think and choose each person's own best method of doing things.
> 
> Just my own free opinion, of course.




Is this how you make a UK (or other non US) member feel welcome, and like contributing to the board?! Unbelievable!


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## GSD13

Questforfire said:


> Is this how you make a UK (or other non US) member feel welcome, and like contributing to the board?! Unbelievable!


 
One word, YES, if you don't wish for conversation to spiral out of control then leave the politics & religion at home... if you bring it up you're heading down a slippery slope... other than that, :welcome:


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## OffgridAlex

You guys seem a bit touchy, I'm not sure where you pick up an anti-American vibe from someone disagreeing with an Mexican's dog training methods?

For the record though: The host is called Alan Titchmarsh. He is a gardener. He was on a few garden improvement shows, no-one here really cares about him apart from little old ladies. He now has an afternoon chat show that caters only for little old ladies. These grannies are the ones with little yappy Westhighland terriers with basically no training or manners that snap and bite at anyone who comes to the house and climb all over the place. The probably feed them the same food they cook themselves and treat them like children not animals and can see no fault in them and would never ever disapline them in any way

Alan Titchmarsh had to represent these views to CM and basically made himself look like a ****. You can take these views as representative of a small group of people in the UK, not the UK as a whole. 

Prong Collars and E Collars are NOT illegal in the UK.


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## Kyleigh

WELCOME ... and yes, we have to keep the politics out of the picture or we'd never have any valuable information on this forum. 

And, there is TONS of valuable info on here ...


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## Whiteshepherds

Talking about politics isn't allowed on the forum, before anyone decides to take that leap.


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## codmaster

Questforfire said:


> Is this how you make a UK (or other non US) member feel welcome, and like contributing to the board?! Unbelievable!


 
Any possibility that your response to an honest opinion was influenced by your country of location?

My opinion has got nothing to do withy how anybody else should feel about contributing their opinion to this board.

How would you react if someone here was stating very obviously incorrect "facts" about Scotland? 

I.E. the majority of people in Scotland abuse their dogs by keeping them outside even in winter!


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## Questforfire

codmaster said:


> Any possibility that your response to an honest opinion was influenced by your country of location?
> 
> My opinion has got nothing to do withy how anybody else should feel about contributing their opinion to this board.
> 
> How would you react if someone here was stating very obviously incorrect "facts" about Scotland?
> 
> I.E. the majority of people in Scotland abuse their dogs by keeping them outside even in winter!


No, I don't think it was influenced by where I live. It was rather a surprised reply due to the complete lack of care about how others view you - especially if it is in an incorrect way.

If someone were to state that the Scottish abuse their dogs (as per above), I am sure I would not come back with a reply that I couldn't give a hoot what others think of the Scottish, especially people in a far off country. Instead I would try and inform and educate.


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## Questforfire

OffgridAlex said:


> You guys seem a bit touchy, I'm not sure where you pick up an anti-American vibe from someone disagreeing with an Mexican's dog training methods?
> 
> For the record though: The host is called Alan Titchmarsh. He is a gardener. He was on a few garden improvement shows, no-one here really cares about him apart from little old ladies. He now has an afternoon chat show that caters only for little old ladies. These grannies are the ones with little yappy Westhighland terriers with basically no training or manners that snap and bite at anyone who comes to the house and climb all over the place. The probably feed them the same food they cook themselves and treat them like children not animals and can see no fault in them and would never ever disapline them in any way
> 
> Alan Titchmarsh had to represent these views to CM and basically made himself look like a ****. You can take these views as representative of a small group of people in the UK, not the UK as a whole.
> 
> *Prong Collars and E Collars are NOT illegal in the UK.*


Correct - except in Wales, where electric collars are illegal.


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## selzer

Uhm, Codmaster, I am from NE Ohio and have lived here all my life. I see prong collars every day. they are even on tiny little dogs. Yes, trainers here in NE Ohio encourage the use of prong collars and will fit dogs with prong collars. It is pretty much the norm here. The police dogs have prongs, people training dogs for the ring often start with prongs. 

I generally feel that I am bucking the system and the people on this board by NOT using a prong.


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## Kyleigh

I see prongs on ALL kinds of dogs here in Ottawa ... it's pretty much the norm here too. Sometimes I feel like I'm the ONLY one that doesn't use one.


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## Olivers mama

selzer said:


> And then the mods will give YOU a warning. Something like inciting a riot. *YEP - been there, done that. I've been slapped.*
> 
> But I have a question for you: Do you get the impression that dogs on the whole are better behave in England or in the US? *Don't know - never paid attention.*
> 
> For myself, I don't know how you get worse behaved that the dogs in the US. *I said it was something I READ - not something I believed. *
> 
> Treats are a tool. The idea of giving a dog a steak dinner after it bites you, shows how you really do not understand positive training at all. *Oh Good Lord - I was being snotty about giving the steak dinner...* :crazy: *The fancy trainers had us treating for EVERYTHING. We carried pouches, bags, filled pockets. Had treats hidden all over the house. And the dog learned to behave. But only with treats.* *We used them the ways we'd been taught.*


The dog's biting has almost ceased. Not from treats, but with different training.

Here's my wish for the New Year --- people who dislike topics like CM or ecollars: Stay Away from the topic, then. Please. Some of us would like personal opinions - from actual experience. Not personal beliefs about these topics, especially if all it does is produce negative talk.

PS - Why is the word "moron" allowed here & thew word "ignorance" is not?


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## Olivers mama

Questforfire said:


> Is this how you make a UK (or other non US) member feel welcome, and like contributing to the board?! Unbelievable!


So codmaster should not be able to give an opinion that YOU think is not PC enough? 

THAT is unbelievable to me.


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## selzer

Olivers mama said:


> The dog's biting has almost ceased. Not from treats, but with different training.
> 
> Here's my wish for the New Year --- people who dislike topics like CM or ecollars: Stay Away from the topic, then. Please. Some of us would like personal opinions - from actual experience. Not personal beliefs about these topics, especially if all it does is produce negative talk.
> 
> PS - Why is the word "moron" allowed here & thew word "ignorance" is not?


I wish the word for the Fiery Pitt was allowed, and words like moron and idiot were banned. 

I think there can be good positive training and bad positive training. I also think there is good use of corrections and bad use of corrections, but whatever. I am terrible about treats. I don't want to bother with them. I don't keep them on my person. After the first set of classes, I rarely use treats in training. 

Someone should branch off and start a Stepford site, where you are only allowed to comment if you agree with the general premise. Then everyone will be in agreement, everyone will be happy, no one will learn a thing, but they say ignorance is bliss.

For here, and I hope it continues, people discuss topics, and other points of view are valuable, even when they might be argumentative. As passionate as we are about our dogs, I certainly hope this site does not lose that passion, and when people are doing something they feel is dangerous, inhumane, or unhelpful, they will continue to voice their opinions. 

Consider the newbie dog owners, who come on and read something, like a thread showing a vid of a dog chasing around a laser pointer. No one wants to be negative, so no one bothers to tell the guy that he can be creating serious issues, and the newbie sees that and decides to try that too.


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## KayleeGSD

Here in Delaware very rarely do I see people using prong collars, e collars, or choke chains. These devices are not the norm around here for majority of the dogs I see. Every now and then I might see people using these devices.


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## Olivers mama

selzer said:


> I wish the word for the Fiery Pitt was allowed, and words like moron and idiot were banned.
> 
> Someone should branch off and start a Stepford site, where you are only allowed to comment if you agree with the general premise. Then everyone will be in agreement, everyone will be happy, no one will learn a thing, but they say ignorance is bliss. *LMAO at this!!! *
> 
> For here, and I hope it continues, people discuss topics, and other points of view are valuable, even when they might be argumentative. As passionate as we are about our dogs, I certainly hope this site does not lose that passion, and when people are doing something they feel is dangerous, inhumane, or unhelpful, they will continue to voice their opinions. *Ahh, come on - you don't there's a few that just LIKE to be argumentative?! *
> 
> Consider the newbie dog owners, who come on and read something, like a thread showing a vid of a dog chasing around a laser pointer. No one wants to be negative, so no one bothers to tell the guy that he can be creating serious issues, and the newbie sees that and decides to try that too. *Another lesson we learned the hard way. Only happened once, but that was all it took --- Ziva jumped in as we were using the laser to play with the cats. She came outta nowhere. Since she could step on them & hurt them, we put the light away. She spent the next hour just staring at the carpet... (1)*


(1) - But why doesn't the light affect cats the same way? They don't go nutso after chasing the light...all it took was for us to see that dog for an hour afterward. Funny, no one believes me when I 'suggest' they not use the laser & tell them about Ziva. Oh, I know now - "OCD". Don't know if I believe that, but I certainly know what I saw. 

Especially for newbies (or near-to-newbies, like me) - I still think it'd be nice to be able to discuss a topic without the hoopla - from both sides of the topic. How are we to learn if either everyone is arguing about principle, or slamming the newbie?

Guess that should be a different topic on its own, right?!


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## selzer

Olivers mama said:


> (1) - But why doesn't the light affect cats the same way? They don't go nutso after chasing the light...all it took was for us to see that dog for an hour afterward. Funny, no one believes me when I 'suggest' they not use the laser & tell them about Ziva. Oh, I know now - "OCD". Don't know if I believe that, but I certainly know what I saw.
> 
> Especially for newbies (or near-to-newbies, like me) - I still think it'd be nice to be able to discuss a topic without the hoopla - from both sides of the topic. How are we to learn if either everyone is arguing about principle, or slamming the newbie?
> 
> Guess that should be a different topic on its own, right?!


We are a large and divers site. We have members from a variety of countries, cultures, religions, races, with GSDs in common. We have members that range from aspie to social butterfly and everywhere in between. We have kids in school and people with graduate level degrees (I think). We have LEOs, teachers, engineers, military, medical etc, etc, etc, The idea that we will all agree on anything other than GSDs are awesome is pretty daunting. 

Just like there is no test that you have to pass to let your dog walk around PetsMart with you, there is no internet manners class that you must pass to be allowed to post here. There are rules, but rules do not teach you how to come across in such a way that no one on the site can possibly take it wrong. 

So, really, I think you are out of luck. Just saying it like it is. This is a hot topic. Some are hotter than others. After being slapped, I stayed out of the training threads for a year or so. But I don't really care anymore, and only go with active topics now, so I never know where I'll wind up.


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## Questforfire

Olivers mama said:


> So codmaster should not be able to give an opinion that YOU think is not PC enough?
> 
> THAT is unbelievable to me.


Not at at all, it was just an eye opener for me that views from countries other than the US are of no interest to some.

Fair enough, and I will now bow out of this conversation as it is going very OT.


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## Olivers mama

Questforfire said:


> Not at at all, it was just an eye opener for me that views from countries other than the US are of no interest to some.
> 
> Fair enough, and I will now bow out of this conversation as it is going very OT.


That's not what was meant by the comment, I am sure. But that's OK. :crazy:

selzer --- :laugh::laugh::laugh: --- I always enjoy your wit! You brought smiles to my face today - Thank You!


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> Uhm, Codmaster, I am from NE Ohio and have lived here all my life. I see prong collars every day. they are even on tiny little dogs. Yes, trainers here in NE Ohio encourage the use of prong collars and will fit dogs with prong collars. It is pretty much the norm here. The police dogs have prongs, people training dogs for the ring often start with prongs.
> 
> I generally feel that I am bucking the system and the people on this board by NOT using a prong.


 
NE Ohio - a fine interesting place to live where I spernt a few years many years ago around the Wooster/Akron area and kept and showed GSD's way back when!

Prong collars are a great training tool when used properly - just like a clicker can be a fine training tool when used properly

Do all of the police dogs in NE Ohio wear prong collars while working? THAT would be most unusual from the areas where I have seen working canines.

Some people may not have your skill with handling large powerful dogs (like GSD's), and may need the additional control that a properly used prong collar can offer.


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## selzer

I never got the hang of a clicker. I know I have one some place. 

I don't know if the K9s use them when they are working, but they certainly do when they are training. I have seen them, even on old and retired k9s, they use the prongs regularly. 

Years ago I had a trainer put a prong on a dog and show me how to do a good correction. That was a one day seminar, and by the end of the class hour, the dog was doing better. I had another trainer take the same dog, and demand removal of the prong, and use of a halti. The dog HATED the halti, and kept slipping it to boot. 

Eventhough I am not a fan, nor a user of prong collars, which trainer did I have more respect for? Which trainer is more respected in the area? Which trainer did I show with, and did I place under a judge when she did not? And at another show did I place with two dogs, two venues, when she was NQ'd. Ah, yes. use or non-use of certain tools does not make you a good or bad trainer. I think 95% of the dogs in my current trainer's classes use prongs, and that trainer is by far the best trainer I have worked with thus far, but I don't use a prong in her classes, and she doesn't push it.


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