# Michael Ellis training questions



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm rewatching all his videos and will post questions that come up. This way I don't open a thousand threads


In the food dvd, at the end when he talks about fading he says that the goal is variable reinforcement. 

So does that mean the behavior isn't marked every time or it's marked every time just not reinforced with food?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Not marked or rewarded. ME rewards for every mark. You start asking for multiple behaviors before a mark and reward. This increases incrementally over time until the dog stays focused and in drive through the complete routine. 

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

In that same section he marks a sit with a good and doesn't feed. Then says yes and feeds. That was confusing and that's what made me think about this

But this makes the most sense (your reply), thank you

Do you know a good video for leave it? I want to teach it to use for my cat and people and dogs. Like he's about to bug out on someone and if I caught it before he bugs out I want to say leave it. Then if he doesn't leave it I will correct. 

Is this how it's done?
If so then which video is good?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> In that same section he marks a sit with a good and doesn't feed. Then says yes and feeds. That was confusing and that's what made me think about this


"Yes" is the marker, which ends the behavior, as it's also the release cue. "Good" is an acknowledgement that the dog is doing what it's supposed to, but it should continue doing it. It's not a marker. Marked behavior must be rewarded, but letting the dog know they're doing good isn't the same thing. 

Teaching a stay, or that the dog should remain in place until released whether an actual stay command is given or not (many people do not use a stay command as staying in position until released is implied) is a good example. Teaching focus is another. In both cases, once I start working on duration, I need to let the dog know that they're doing what I've asked, but I don't want to mark and reward it quite yet because I want them to keep doing it.



> Do you know a good video for leave it?


Here's an article: Teaching Your Dog to "Leave It" On Cue - Whole Dog Journal Article

A video: 






This impulse control game teaches an implied "leave it" in that the dog is not given a command, he has to figure out that ignoring the food makes you give him the food, and trying to get it makes the gravy train stop, so to speak. I like to add attention, so the dog has to look away from the food at me:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I just use no. Whatever your intent was when I said it you had better stop. Leave it for me is a food refusal comman.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy 's mom, I thought good is a duration marker and it's also rewarded. I know he's def rewarding it in the beginning. When he has us charge the markers we charge both good and yes markers. 

Baillif, you know his stuff. Right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

as far as the games, thank you, I've been doing them already. I watched your video as well))))) you posted it in someone's thread.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I just use no. Whatever your intent was when I said it you had better stop. Leave it for me is a food refusal comman.


Someone suggested to use a leave it for this but I also say no, it's just an automatic already. 

OK then how do I teach what no means? As it stands now, I'm saying a word he doesn't understand and then correcting for non compliance. I'm exaggerating a little, I think he knows he's not supposed to bark at people but you know what I mean. I never taught him NO


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Good is a duration marker and gets rewarded, but it's not a release. Later in training, I don't reward every marker. I use it more as communication, moving to variable rewards after the mark. 

It should be said that I don't train competitive OB, and I'm not looking for that flash that the AKC and IPO trainers are looking for. 

I train leave it with markers. There is a good video with a guy training in a garage, throwing food on the floor and marking focus back on the handler with a final release to get the food on the floor. 

I move to corrections (NePoPo with a prong and e-collar) after the dog gets it. I also use leave it in detection to get the dog to leave a hide and move on to the next search instead of returning to the hide it just found. This helps reinforce the reward. No corrections in the detection training, but I will negative mark a return to the initial hide. 

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah, I know it's not a release, my confusion was that he didn't reward it. I thought every marker gets rewarded otherwise after a while it loses its meaning. 

Diff trainers say diff things. I had a trainer tell me to always use the marker but not reinforce every time. After a few days he stopped looking at me after I marked. 

You're saying you don't reinforce every time either. You don't have this problem ?

As far as leave it, I'm not looking for food refusal, I'm already teaching that. Now I need to teach him what no means. Like he's about to bark at a person, dog, cat. Or do something I don't want him to do. 

How do I teach a command that will have him stop doing what he's doing


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Using variable reward for a marker is dependant on being able to read the drive in the dog, and is also dependant on the dog really wanting to work with you. 

No for most people is a conditioned punisher. You punish the dog after every instance of NO for a period of time and it becomes punishment in and of itself, just like yes can become rewarding. 

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

One more question. If anyone knows what his recall video is about. Is there any way to follow it without having a second person? Almost every step requires someone helping. For example restrained recalls. I put a leash around a tree and hold the other end and let it go once I'm rrady, so I kind of got that one. But the rest I'm not sure how to get around not having a helper. 

Question on restrained recalls. If I have him sit, walk away, stand there for 5 secs and then recall him, is it the same as restrained recalls? I know he's not restrained but he's controlling himself from running to me, doesn't that accomplish the same thing?

Sorry this is all over the place. I have so many questions once I try following videos


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Using variable reward for a marker is dependant on being able to read the drive in the dog, and is also dependant on the dog really wanting to work with you.
> 
> No for most people is a conditioned punisher. You punish the dog after every instance of NO for a period of time and it becomes punishment in and of itself, just like yes can become rewarding.
> 
> David Winners


Got you so then I will stick with always reinforcing and just using variable marking

As far as no, but how will he know what I want him to do instead? A trainer told me to always teach a dog what TO do as opposed to what not to do

Is she right? Makes sense to me. When you give them an alternate behavior then it's easier for them, no?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Got you so then I will stick with always reinforcing and just using variable marking
> 
> As far as no, but how will he know what I want him to do instead? A trainer told me to always teach a dog what TO do as opposed to what not to do
> 
> Is she right? Makes sense to me. When you give them an alternate behavior then it's easier for them, no?


You say no, then tell the dog what to do. Always think of the most effective way to communicate. Hey, this is wrong, but this other thing is right. 

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> One more question. If anyone knows what his recall video is about. Is there any way to follow it without having a second person? Almost every step requires someone helping. For example restrained recalls. I put a leash around a tree and hold the other end and let it go once I'm rrady, so I kind of got that one. But the rest I'm not sure how to get around not having a helper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't watched it in a while. Other than restrained recalls, what exercises require a partner? 


Having the dog do a sit stay is not the same as a restrained recall. You said it yourself. He is controlling himself. You want him wound up, bursting to get to you so you can develop that habit, not worrying about impulse control and being corrected for breaking the sit stay. 

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I haven't watched it in a while. Other than restrained recalls, what exercises require a partner?
> 
> 
> Having the dog do a sit stay is not the same as a restrained recall. You said it yourself. He is controlling himself. You want him wound up, bursting to get to you so you can develop that habit, not worrying about impulse control and being corrected for breaking the sit stay.
> ...



Then you have someone feed him but once I recall they close their hand so that the good stuff stopped. And he runs to me and I feed him

Then later same thing with a toy, they play with him but immobilize the toy once I recall

Then they play with him but don't immobiliZe the toy 

If nothing can be thought of I will make my daughter come out with me but it's not easy lol. I'd rather find a way as I did with the tree


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I just reviewed the DVD. Yeah, the call-offs and call aways are going to need a partner to do them as on the DVD. If you want to follow ME's protocol, you will need a helper for this IMO.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I do want to follow)))) it seems like a good way to teach step by step to recall from a progression of interesting things. 

Is there an easier and better way?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There are many ways. Some trainers prefer different methods. It's about what works for you and your dog. The ME system helps to establish and maintain a good relationship with the dog and good habits; 2 very important things in recall. If you are going to deviate from the system, I think you should have a reason, as well as understanding of how that deviation may effect the training, both short and long term, and relationship with the dog. If you are experienced enough in training to understand these things, then I feel it is safe to take your training in the direction you wish to go. 

IMO, your understanding of learning behavior and the "why" of the training steps is too limited to begin implementing your own methods. I would recommend you invest in the system and follow it as closely as possible to alleviate unwanted consequences of poorly thought out or executed training.

Are you training for competition, work or pet OB?


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Variable reinforcement is best described as slot machines. Ppl will keep pulling the lever over and over and over without reward. Knowing that the next pull could result in reward. Ppl are rewarded just enough to keep them coming back for more.

Variable reinforcement is being used constantly in training, even when you don't know you are doing it (though we as humans tend to always fall into patterns)..

Let's say you are training a Sit and your dog does it no problem but he always sits with one leg out to the side. So you stop rewarding sits with that leg out. The dog knows that when he sits he gets a reward but initially he doesn't know the criteria has been changed...therefore that's variable reinforcement 

Or if your trying to train a heel. You initially mark and treat only one step by your side. Repeat repeat repeat with high rate of reinforcement. Then you try two steps {reward}. Then 4 steps {reward}, then one step {reward}, then 5 steps {reward}...that is also variable reinforcement.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Pet ob and I really want to stick with ME methods. I really like what he teaches, I like the idea of the dog wanting to work with the owner. It's hard for me to do but I'm trying. 

I watch these dogs with their tails going like crazy and I don't know how they get them like that. My dog doesn't hate it but he's not nearly like that


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lauren, what a good analogy, thank you. Now I understand why this will work for a dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

One more. You know how they say, training never stops, you have to keep it up for the life of the dog. 

What does that mean for recall? I have to go through all the steps every few months?
I'm trying to understand what I need from my daughter. 

And using ME's way, how long does it take for recall?


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

You should always be testing recall. In other words if your dog has a strong recall...keep upping the difficulty level...

Calling a dog off a deer is going to be harder than a simple no distraction recall. And keep going back and forth between easy recalls and simple ones


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Testing as in recalling him from different things or actually going through the steps of the DVD that I described above?


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

You don't have to repeat every single step of the recall training. What you should do is randomly reinforce your dog's recalls, like the previously mentioned random reinforcements for sit or heel. You can also randomly revisit various steps of the recall training. For example, even though I now can call my dog off rabbits, I still do occasional restrained recalls with my dog.

Training is lifelong, but that doesn't mean you have to repeat all previous training steps on a repeating schedule. Randomly revisit training steps, randomly reinforce, and focus on a particular issue if needed.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Thank you. It would make it harder if I had to.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

TwoBigEars said:


> You don't have to repeat every single step of the recall training. What you should do is randomly reinforce your dog's recalls, like the previously mentioned random reinforcements for sit or heel. You can also randomly revisit various steps of the recall training. For example, even though I now can call my dog off rabbits, I still do occasional restrained recalls with my dog.
> 
> Training is lifelong, but that doesn't mean you have to repeat all previous training steps on a repeating schedule. Randomly revisit training steps, randomly reinforce, and focus on a particular issue if needed.


Yes thanks that's what I was trying to say!





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