# Socializing the Schutzhund bred dog



## clearcreekranch

OK, I am posting this here because I specifically want to know how you all handle this. I was told not to let people pet Wolf when he was a puppy. Now I am having issues and I think that he may not BH because of this. 

We just went to Petsmart and a man and his 12 yo son asked to pet him, I told him probably not a good idea. We started talking and the man had owned a Schutzhund GSD before. I let loose some of Wolf's leash and he was smelling the son and of course, the boy reached down and Wolf barked and lunged. Needless to say all involved were a little upset.

Before you all criticize me, I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY...Please don't tell me that I screwed up......I know that. Too many people; too much going on. Wolf was probably on overload.

I just want to know where I go from here. How do I get Wolf to be non-reactive? Will it come with more maturity and more exposure to social situations? As I have said before, Wolf goes with me to horse shows. He does fine as long as no one makes a sudden move behind us or comes up to us too fast. I am fine with a dog that ignores people, but don't want to have to worry that he will bite a friendly stranger.

And we did stay in Petsmart and walk up and down the aisles and by lots of people and kids and dogs and no more incidents.


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## crackem

i had to edit cause I read the rest of your post and realized mine didn't really fit


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## Elaine

How old is he and what does you club say about his problem? Just curious, who told you not to socialize him as a pup?


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## GSDElsa

I think sometimes people take the advice too literally...usually when people talk about the "no petting" rule it refers to strangers coming up and molesting your dog.


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## JKlatsky

I think this depends on the dog you have in front of you. If you have a social dog that tends towards being overly friendly, then you might adjust in favor of minimizing or eliminating the petting so that he does not view others as rewarding. 

If you have a dog that likes people but can be a little shy or overwhelmed, I think not letting people pet the dog but be close by while you talk can allow the dog to gain confidence in people. I think too many people DO rush in and maul a puppy, and I've seen a lot of pups get a little scared by an overenthusiastic greeter. And usually the overenthusiastic greeter happens before you can stop it. Even really good dog people can get stupid. Personally I always pet my dogs at the same time as other people. I never let my dogs interact with a stranger without also being a part of the equation. A stranger or a kid wants to pet my dog, I am immediately down on a knee with my dog petting it at the same time as the person. 

If you have a sharp dog or a reactive dog, then you have to work on lessening the reactivity. Reactivity has to do with the nerves of the dog. A reactive dog has more nerve activity than a non-reactive dog. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You'll probably find your obedience is flashier. But it will mean that your dog is more likely to react first-think later...and you'll have to compensate for that in the way that you train and deal with your dog. Grab your dog from behind sometime when he's not expecting it...what's the reaction (bet you can predict without even doing it)? I've got a dog that will turn quick and automatically put his mouth on my arm and start to compress and let's go once he processes that it's me- more reactive. I've got another one that barely glances over his shoulder and gives me the "What are you doing?" look- non-reactive. 

The goal behavior should be an aloof dog that is non-reactive to stimuli and you do what training and socializing you need to achieve that. Training fills in gaps in the personality of our dogs to achieve the ideal. 

And, no one deliberately touchs your dog in the BH. I think more gradual exposure to stimuli and maturity will clear this up. But you have to be careful about the parameters you set for the experiences. Define where he gets strange. Is it movement? Like the boys hand? Or was he a little tense before or during the verbal interaction, and the motion was what did him in? Was he fine when the leash was choked up and he was close to you? Did his calm behavior change when he had more freedom on the leash? Was he keyed up just being in the environment? Go through the situations you've had and see if you can pinpoint where he started to lose his composure. Start there. If he started to tense or key up as soon as he came into the store then he needs more exposure to the environments. If it was as soon as the people started to talk to you and come within your personal bubble...then he needs more people around you in your space, not petting the dog. You ignore the dog and keep talking to the people, maybe sliding him treats just cause until you see him start to relax and ignore the people. And so on and so forth.


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## FG167

JKlatsky said:


> Define where he gets strange. Is it movement? Like the boys hand? Or was he a little tense before or during the verbal interaction, and the motion was what did him in? Was he fine when the leash was choked up and he was close to you? Did his calm behavior change when he had more freedom on the leash? Was he keyed up just being in the environment? Go through the situations you've had and see if you can pinpoint where he started to lose his composure. Start there. If he started to tense or key up as soon as he came into the store then he needs more exposure to the environments. If it was as soon as the people started to talk to you and come within your personal bubble...then he needs more people around you in your space, not petting the dog. You ignore the dog and keep talking to the people, maybe sliding him treats just cause until you see him start to relax and ignore the people. And so on and so forth.


Really excellent post! I have a dog that is reactive (Madix) and in much the same ways. He does not like having people come up and pet him - with the exception - if it is a trainer that is going to "work" with him - then he is fine. But, sitting for multiple people to pet him really works him up - still. 

However, when he was younger, as few as 2 people wanting to pet him would send him off (he would growl and bark and hackle - now he nips and tugs on their shirts if pushed too far). 

Above is exactly how I worked with him and now we can go to Petsmart and various other stores and classes and he is fine, he accepts treats from the cashier fine etc. I do not allow people to pet him otherwise though - ESPECIALLY if it's more than one. 

So, learn what bothers your dog and help him through that. Mine used to be nervous if someone came close and spoke to me, now he is fine with that, but still not ok with being pet by multiple "friendly strangers". I tested his threshold again today and he STILL isn't comfortable with multiple people focusing on and touching him (this was practiced at my Schutzhund club, not with strangers out and about on the town!). So, we back up again and go back to only allowing certain people I can trust to pet him in these scenarios - or only allowing 2-4 people to pet him, any more and he gets nervous. Also, my dog hackles up before he gets nervous enough to nip - so watch for your dog's "tells". It might be something really slight, like a tensing of the body or his ears might go down or he might just get a more "intense" facial expression. 

I also recommend a good behaviorist - not saying that you couldn't work through this without, but it gave me a lot of confidence and really drew clear lines for me to understand what I should be doing and how to read Madix. He's much better now than he was at 10 weeks. Everyone keeps telling me to keep working with him/managing it and at 3 years I'll be surprised how solid he is. Stay positive - my point in all of this, I've been where you are and it does get better. Also, once they get to be adults, less people (in my experience) want to pet them and also believe the "no thank, he's working" more easily than when they are cute little puppies - which makes training a LOT easier and less stressful on me (you).


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## clearcreekranch

JKlatsky, thanks for the very helpful advice. He was keyed up before we went into the store. Not barking or lunging, just very excited. So I walked him around outside and worked on his obedience commands until I felt that he was calm. I immediately put him on a Platz, away from the registers, but close enough to them and the door so that he could get use to all of the activity.

He was fine until I loosened the leash and let him sniff. He was fine until the boy actually reached down. Tail wagging and I think that's why the boy did it. He has only reacted similarly recently at 2 different horse shows. The first time when a boy ran up behind us and made a grab for a pet on his back and the second time when a young man went running up down the aisle past us. I corrected him on both occasions.

He was never tense. After the incident, we walked around the store pushing a basket. I always put myself between him and people, not so much that I am worried about him, but for the comfort of citizens. He will platz by my feet while I am browsing. We went to Tractor Supply last week and no problems. 


I think that he is probably going to be good with the "I ignore you and you ignore me".

We are going to the feedstore and to get my truck inspected tomorrow and sometime later in the week, to the vet's office to pick something up.

Thanks again. I'm glad for the understanding and advice. I am trying so hard to do things right.

And FG167, glad to know that others have had similar experiences and have worked through them. I am definitely going to back it up a couple of notches. And Petsmart was VERY crowded. Lots of dogs, kids and people. Previously, other than horse shows, I pick a day and place that has people but not busy. As with your dog, a couple of months ago, he did not like people in "our space". Now he will tolerate it and pretty much ignore them. I see progress everyday with him.

Still proud to be Wolf's momma and glad I found you guys.

As I said in my OP, I feel that I tried to push him too far, too fast.


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## clearcreekranch

Sorry for the multiple post. Elaine, he just turned 1 and his Schutzhund club trainer told us this at the very beginning of our training when he was just 6mos.


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## hunterisgreat

clearcreekranch said:


> Sorry for the multiple post. Elaine, he just turned 1 and his Schutzhund club trainer told us this at the very beginning of our training when he was just 6mos.


No one has perfect advice, so its a good idea to venture around and train with lots of other great trainers. You may find some parts of some advice isn't that applicable to your dog, and some is. Seeing a whole bunch of trainers perspectives/methods/etc will help you see what is right for your dog, and you being able to see what is correct for him is critically important. If you don't understand your dog at best you are only slowly producing results, and at worst you are undoing things that professional trainers have accomplished with him.


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## PaddyD

hunterisgreat said:


> No one has perfect advice, so its a good idea to venture around and train with lots of other great trainers. You may find some parts of some advice isn't that applicable to your dog, and some is. Seeing a whole bunch of trainers perspectives/methods/etc will help you see what is right for your dog, and you being able to see what is correct for him is critically important. If you don't understand your dog at best you are only slowly producing results, and at worst you are undoing things that professional trainers have accomplished with him.


That was perfect advice.


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## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> No one has perfect advice, so its a good idea to venture around and train with lots of other great trainers. You may find some parts of some advice isn't that applicable to your dog, and some is.


Yes. Also remember it is YOUR dog, YOU have to live with him. Some things that are important to me are not important to other people, and vice versa. For example it's important that my Schutzhund dogs have good household manners because I keep them indoors. If I kept them kenneled, that would not be an issue. It's important that they have the appropriate threshold for my living situation. There are often people coming and going to/from my house that the dogs do not "know" and I can't have a dog that is overly reactive or suspicious toward such people. Some people have cats and small animals so they need more control over prey drive whereas I don't have small animals or little kids so I don't care if my dogs are wild over squirrels and such. I don't do dog parks or dog daycare so I don't care if my dogs like or dislike dogs other than the ones in our household but for other people, dog socialization and having a dog-friendly dog is really important. I prefer a dog that is calm, confident, and aloof which means the dog doesn't really care about other people, dogs, sights, sounds, etc. Most of my socialization involves taking the dogs as puppies somewhere other than home every day for the first few months. I bring them on elevators, across bridges, up and down all types of stairs (some dogs freak on stairs that don't have backs), around loud and smelly equipment. Sometimes we stop and let people let them, sometimes we just keep moving. The dog should accept a friendly stranger but not always be pulling to get to them. In general I want a dog with a higher threshold for suspicion and a dog that will react in defense to a real threat which I define as someone intentionally challenging me or the dog. I don't like high levels of suspicion or a dog with so much prey drive that they want to go after ever bicycle and skate board. But, that's just me...


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## Mrs.K

> And, no one deliberately touch your dog in the BH.


Not true. Before she can even start with the BH the Judge goes to the dog, checks the tattoo number or the Chip. If the dog even attempts to lung or barks...at least in Germany she'd be out! If not even a kid can reach out to him I doubt he'd let a judge touch his ear to check the tattoo number. So I would train that with as many different people as possible. THAT is how they get through the BH not because they have super socialized dogs in the American way of sense. 

Also, it depends, if the Judge can see that the dog is a little unstable he might actually have the group close down on the dog. I don't know if they'd do that in the States but in Germany they used to do that to see if a dog was stable enough to withhold the pressure from a group of people closing down on him.


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## Liesje

When I did my first BH, we did the obedience part first but before we officially started, the judge asked two men to stand up and asked us to informally heel around them, just to make sure the dog safe around strange people before we began. For the traffic part, we had to heel in a group, heel in a line (dogs nose to butt but not touching). Then we each tied our dog to a tree in a row of trees, hid out of sight, and they drove a vehicle with a honking horn, had a jogger, a bicycle, and another dog go past the row of dogs. No one touched my dog, not that it would have mattered since he is used to being touched for shows. Usually they ask me to show the tattoo so I turn the ear out. His tat is readable without having to look really close though.


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## Mrs.K

Different Judge, different rules. It also depends on where you are and how good you know the people. 

I could tell you guys some stories about dogs that went into the woods for the traffic part, far away from any car because they would have never made it through the city-traffic. But those are the kind of BH's nobody is talking about and if they do, they don't mention the dogs or handlers name because it was a "rigged" BH just to get the dog through the parts where minimal socialization is required. 
You know why? Because a lot of dogs spend their life in the kennel and all they get to see is the different dog clubs and the dog trailers. They never once get to see a city or a store from the inside. They are not supposed to like other people because they are a sporting tool. 

Those are not the people you want to be involved with in the first place. They are VERY old-school and you probably won't find them at the top of the Schutzhundszene. 

Those people, however, still exist and stay away as far as possible from them. I can very well believe that somebody told her and ment it literally because I know for a fact that those people are out there and when they go through the BH they don't want anybody to watch. 

My personal experience though...


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## hunterisgreat

I'm a touch concerned about the "other dog" piece with my female. If they use a big dominat dog for that I'll have a real challenge on my hands


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## JKlatsky

Mrs.K said:


> Not true. Before she can even start with the BH the Judge goes to the dog, checks the tattoo number or the Chip. If the dog even attempts to lung or barks...at least in Germany she'd be out! If not even a kid can reach out to him I doubt he'd let a judge touch his ear to check the tattoo number. So I would train that with as many different people as possible. THAT is how they get through the BH not because they have super socialized dogs in the American way of sense.
> 
> Also, it depends, if the Judge can see that the dog is a little unstable he might actually have the group close down on the dog. I don't know if they'd do that in the States but in Germany they used to do that to see if a dog was stable enough to withhold the pressure from a group of people closing down on him.


 
We've done 3 BH's ourselves- 3 different judges and I've seen multiple BH's under different judges. The temperament tests given do vary from an old school German judge who was pretty willing to look the other way to judges who would deliberately do what they could to expose a nerve problem in the dog. I have seen judges make excessive eye contact, maybe loom a little, trying to provoke a reaction...but I have never seen anyone deliberately touch or pet a dog. 

Not even in the tattoo check or microchip check. The handler is asked to show the tattoo and the judge just leans in to look...MicroChip scanner was done by the handler and then passed to the trial secretary or judge. We even have a bitch that has a tattoo on her inner thigh...we sit the dog and sit her up so the tattoo is visible...judge just squatted down to look. There might be some incidental touching as the dog passes through the close group, and yes I have also seen the group close down on the dog...but no one comes at the dog and pets it. Most group members will also avert eye contact. 

Maybe it's different in Germany?

Not saying that you should think it's OK to have an aggressive reactive dog...but if you're going for a temperament test you should know the parts. Goal should be acceptance of casual contact with strangers- does not have to accept petting in this particular situation. If you have someone accidentally brush his head in the group you obviously don't want the dog to turn around and go Cujo...but at the same time...baby steps. Ignore me, I ignore you is a good way to start.


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## JKlatsky

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm a touch concerned about the "other dog" piece with my female. If they use a big dominat dog for that I'll have a real challenge on my hands


 
Club trials will not generally set you up to fail. A nice neutral dog is almost always picked for the BH...not some killer that postures and stares down other dogs. Clubs usually have their dogs entered too and they don't want to fail. If you dog can tolerate another dog walking by (and remember there's a good bit of distance- 10ft) it's usually not a problem.


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## Mrs.K

JKlatsky said:


> Club trials will not generally set you up to fail. A nice neutral dog is almost always picked for the BH...not some killer that postures and stares down other dogs. Clubs usually have their dogs entered too and they don't want to fail. If you dog can tolerate another dog walking by (and remember there's a good bit of distance- 10ft) it's usually not a problem.



Yup, most clubs will make it as easy as possible. 

However, I know a judge that would set you up for failure just because he had a beef with the Agility people and considered them a "pest". He made it as hard as possible for them to get through and knew exactly how to get most dogs to fail. He was the meanest and most feared judge out there. :wild:


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## Liesje

For our tests, the tethered dogs were about 8 feet from the other dog heeling past. Neither dogs could reach each other even if there was a reaction. The heeling dog was just one of the dogs in the group. The judge pointed to my friend and asked her to untie her dog and heel him past the dogs, so I guess the test was a tad harder for him, but honestly it was easier than any CGC (where the dogs heel straight on to each other and are easily within reach of each other if they react).


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## Mrs.K

I am wondering, it sounds like the BH is different from what I've seen in Germany so far. Don't they have to follow the same rules?


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## Liesje

Well it's really up to the judge but like Jklatsky says, here a club trial is not going to try to make dogs fail. Schutzhund clubs and good training are already few and far between, we want as many people to participate as possible, being something fun and rewarding to do with their dogs, not try to fail dogs and get people out because of other agendas. Honestly my dogs encounter situations on a weekly basis that can be more stressful or more potentially dangerous if a dog were reactive than the traffic tests for the BH. To me the BH is just a formality we have to do in order to compete or earn titles, it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know about my dog nor would it give the judge or anyone else a good picture of my dog, just that the dog is under control and safe enough to compete.


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## cliffson1

I have never understood the mentality of not wanting a puppy to be pettable by strangers....never understood it and still don't!!


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## Elaine

I think it's the "cool factor" of being able to say that your dog is so tough he would eat anyone that dared to touch him. I know a couple of people like this and they literally can't take their dogs anywhere: not to the vet, not out for a walk, not to the store, nowhere. It's very sad. I sincerely hope these dogs never get loose as they would bite anyone that got near them and I'm sure the vet hates them as the dogs not only have to be muzzled before coming in the clinic, the dogs are actively trying to kill him the entire time he's in the room with them. They even think this makes their dogs "real dogs".


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## W.Oliver

JKlatsky said:


> .......The goal behavior should be an aloof dog that is non-reactive to stimuli and you do what training and socializing you need to achieve that. Training fills in gaps in the personality of our dogs to achieve the ideal......


JKlatsky, I always enjoy/appreciate your posts.


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## Mrs.K

Elaine said:


> I think it's the "cool factor" of being able to say that your dog is so tough he would eat anyone that dared to touch him. I know a couple of people like this and they literally can't take their dogs anywhere: not to the vet, not out for a walk, not to the store, nowhere. It's very sad. I sincerely hope these dogs never get loose as they would bite anyone that got near them and I'm sure the vet hates them as the dogs not only have to be muzzled before coming in the clinic, the dogs are actively trying to kill him the entire time he's in the room with them. They even think this makes their dogs "real dogs".


Yes, a lot of people do that in Germany too. It's what I said on the other (German/Malinois) topic. A lot of old-school Schutzhund people do not want "soft" dogs. They want the hard dogs that they would refer to as an "Das ist ein Echter." (It's a "Real" one) just because he doesn't take "sh^%$" from anyone. 

They are proud that they get bit by their own dog and that the dog turns on them. They will proudly show you their arm with all the marks, scratches, bruises and tell you with glowing eyes that they have to be careful what they do because he's a real one and will turn on you. They do not want "Beutegeier" (lots and lots of prey-drive), they want purely Defense Dogs. 

And some people mistake poor socialization over a defense driven dog... :help:


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## W.Oliver

Elaine said:


> I think it's the "cool factor" of being able to say that your dog is so tough he would eat anyone that dared to touch him. I know a couple of people like this and they literally can't take their dogs anywhere: not to the vet, not out for a walk, not to the store, nowhere. It's very sad. I sincerely hope these dogs never get loose as they would bite anyone that got near them and I'm sure the vet hates them as the dogs not only have to be muzzled before coming in the clinic, the dogs are actively trying to kill him the entire time he's in the room with them. They even think this makes their dogs "real dogs".


+1, 100% agree, ditto!!!!!!


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## Hunther's Dad

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, a lot of people do that in Germany too. It's what I said on the other (German/Malinois) topic. A lot of old-school Schutzhund people do not want "soft" dogs. They want the hard dogs that they would refer to as an "Das ist ein Echter." (It's a "Real" one) just because he doesn't take "sh^%$" from anyone.
> 
> They are proud that they get bit by their own dog and that the dog turns on them. *They will proudly show you their arm with all the marks, scratches, bruises and tell you with glowing eyes that they have to be careful what they do because he's a real one and will turn on you. *They do not want "Beutegeier" (lots and lots of prey-drive), they want purely Defense Dogs.
> 
> And some people mistake poor socialization over a defense driven dog... :help:


No thanks! I'll keep my "fake" dog, then.


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## hunterisgreat

What good is a dog thats gotta be in the crate its whole life? Thats one big dividing line between people in schutzhund and dog training in general... everyone is seems to be either "my companion first, and my schutzhund/agility/whatever second" or the dog is purely just a piece of equipment they use for their chosen sport. I'm sure my confident male who will tolerate being pet, kids messing with him, etc, is a much more effective deterrent to people who wish to do me harm, then someone else's dog thats so darn mean he's gotta stay home, or be muzzled. Now those are the types of dogs I could see turning on the handler and helping the aggressor whip his arse (was said in another thread somewhere)


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## Smithie86

Depends on the judge.

Some will be very correct and to the letter, even at a club trial, for the temperament portion. 

What will happen when you are trialing at the 1 and you get another dominant dog on the field with you? Dogs have to be obedient and deal with it. What happens as a 1st time handler (either you or other) that comes to close on the report in or judges’ report? 

We have very dominant males. The upcoming females are as well. But, they can not be (and are not) dog aggressive, dominant on the field.


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## Mrs.K

And what I don't understand is that it doesn't have to be like that. It's a misconception of so many people out there. 

Look at Gildo vom Koerbelbach. He was a family and Schutzhund dog and is now one of the most famous lines out there. We crawled all over him. He was one of the hardest on the field but you did not have to muzzle or crate him at home. He lived in the house with four other males that have NEVER been crated once in the house. 

Or Olko vom Baerenfang. He lived in the house with us too. 
Orlie vom Baerenfang a family dog as well. 
Satan vom Baerenfang, family dog. 

None of them crated, muzzled and you didn't have to be scared to go anywhere with them or to leave them alone with us. Even I as a child was able to have any of them on the leash. 

So I don't understand why people think that it is necessary to turn dogs into such machines and treat them like robots. What's the purpose?


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> And what I don't understand is that it doesn't have to be like that. It's a misconception of so many people out there.
> 
> Look at Gildo vom Koerbelbach. He was a family and Schutzhund dog and is now one of the most famous lines out there. We crawled all over him. He was one of the hardest on the field but you did not have to muzzle or crate him at home. He lived in the house with four other males that have NEVER been crated once in the house.
> 
> Or Olko vom Baerenfang. He lived in the house with us too.
> Orlie vom Baerenfang a family dog as well.
> Satan vom Baerenfang, family dog.
> 
> None of them crated, muzzled and you didn't have to be scared to go anywhere with them or to leave them alone with us. Even I as a child was able to have any of them on the leash.
> 
> So I don't understand why people think that it is necessary to turn dogs into such machines and treat them like robots. What's the purpose?


Well, bloat and life got us side tracked, but I fully intend to take both my dogs as far as my modest skills can take them... but they also accompany me everywhere. In 10 mins they'll be getting in my car and going with me to grad school, where they'll chill in the car unsupervised and I don't have to worry about them hurting someone for no reason (they can't get out obviously). They are with me almost 24 hrs a day. I would have no use for a dog that couldn't fit in to my life in they way I want/need them to.


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## ShenzisMom

The 'purpose' is the more uncontrollable and aggressive the dog is, the better. Because he's practicing his aggression 24/7 and only getting better.

I'm telling you, the world is going to **** in a handbasket because of these stupid teenagers, and adults who never cared to grow a pair and do things the _right_ way.


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> Well, bloat and life got us side tracked, but I fully intend to take both my dogs as far as my modest skills can take them... but they also accompany me everywhere. In 10 mins they'll be getting in my car and going with me to grad school, where they'll chill in the car unsupervised and I don't have to worry about them hurting someone for no reason (they can't get out obviously). They are with me almost 24 hrs a day. I would have no use for a dog that couldn't fit in to my life in they way I want/need them to.


Exactly. A couple of days ago I was told that somebody crates their dog 24/7 because it helps to build their drive... if I have to crate my dog to the point that it "builds" drive, then maybe I should either get another dog or find a new trainer. 

But maybe that is why I am not out there competing at the world level... however to me it is cruel to crate a dog just to keep them pumped up and have them ready to jump through a window once they actually get out of the crate. :help:


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## hunterisgreat

Smithie86 said:


> Depends on the judge.
> 
> Some will be very correct and to the letter, even at a club trial, for the temperament portion.
> 
> What will happen when you are trialing at the 1 and you get another dominant dog on the field with you? Dogs have to be obedient and deal with it. What happens as a 1st time handler (either you or other) that comes to close on the report in or judges’ report?
> 
> We have very dominant males. The upcoming females are as well. But, they can not be (and are not) dog aggressive, dominant on the field.


My female has struggled when someone else walking a dog, has the dog go beserk at her... I am struggling to handle it and am not sure how to keep her attention off the dog and on me as she is severe tunnel vision at that point. My male won't even raise his fur or show any interest unless the dog is off lead or able to get within biting range... a dog going ballistic 10 feet away can barely garner his interest for a few seconds. My female though, will return the sentiment. Corrections seem useless and only seem to increase the stress load. Toys or food to redirect the attention isn't cutting it either. I have used compulsion to point her at me and calmly calm her down with some progress, but there's gotta be a more effective way... nor do I want to be correcting the bejeezus out of her in public... thoughts?


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Exactly. A couple of days ago I was told that somebody crates their dog 24/7 because it helps to build their drive... if I have to crate my dog to the point that it "builds" drive, then maybe I should either get another dog or find a new trainer.
> 
> But maybe that is why I am not out there competing at the world level... however to me it is cruel to crate a dog just to keep them pumped up and have them ready to jump through a window once they actually get out of the crate. :help:


If my female had any more drive I'd be woefully under equipped to move forward with her in training lol. I swear a jet black mal somehow came out of a gsd-gsd breeding lol


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## FG167

hunterisgreat said:


> My female has struggled when someone else walking a dog, has the dog go beserk at her... I am struggling to handle it and am not sure how to keep her attention off the dog and on me as she is severe tunnel vision at that point. My male won't even raise his fur or show any interest unless the dog is off lead or able to get within biting range... a dog going ballistic 10 feet away can barely garner his interest for a few seconds. My female though, will return the sentiment. Corrections seem useless and only seem to increase the stress load. Toys or food to redirect the attention isn't cutting it either. I have used compulsion to point her at me and calmly calm her down with some progress, but there's gotta be a more effective way... nor do I want to be correcting the bejeezus out of her in public... thoughts?


It has been said to me that correcting in these types of situations can ramp the dog up further. Try a dominant dog collar maybe and choke her off her limited vision?


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## hunterisgreat

FG167 said:


> It has been said to me that correcting in these types of situations can ramp the dog up further. Try a dominant dog collar maybe and choke her off her limited vision?


Corrections are def associated with the dog they are focused on and not the handler... Making for an immediate and violent increase in posture. Jager does that too. Dom dog collar is too much I think, and I cringe just thinking about the looks I would get in public. My MO is to put myself between her and the dog and force her to look at me while blocking line of sight to the dog.. A few mins of talking and soothing and she's ready to play. She's getting better and I can see it coming before it starts now so I'm 75% of the time able to avert it


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## Northern GSDs

Just wanted to clarify a point regarding the "touching of the dog" discussion with respects to trial.

I have had a judge lean over my dog and touch my dog's ear for the identity/tattoo/temperment component. At another trial event, judge leaned in and over my dog to look at tattoo. 

We have done close work with "human traffic" during the BH traffic component (people brushing by dog while heeling through walking lines of people); people standing in a circle around a dog in a down and moving close in right up to the dog, etc. 

So yes, it can and it does happen


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## Jason L

I agree with Falon. I would use a dominant collar, especially if it is already clear to you the prong amps the dogs up. 

Also I have no problem correcting Ike in front of everyone if the occasion calls for it. Correction is all about timing. If I see a dog coming and put Ike in a sit far enough away from the dog (this is where you have to be fair and not ask the impossible) and then he breaks the sit because he is busy mouthing off to that dog, you better believe there will be a correction coming. If people want to watch or say something, let them.


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## JKlatsky

FG167 said:


> It has been said to me that correcting in these types of situations can ramp the dog up further. Try a dominant dog collar maybe and choke her off her limited vision?


This is always what I've seen to be the most successful in dealing with taht kind of situation. It doesn't have to look terrible...Usually a nylon slip can be pulled tight across the leg that is bracing the dog to issue the correction- you don't have to pull them up in that way.


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## FG167

hunterisgreat said:


> I cringe just thinking about the looks I would get in public. My MO is to put myself between her and the dog and force her to look at me while blocking line of sight to the dog..


I am using a black one, it is fairly buried in his hair and I don't lift up, rather I just pull firmly in one direction (the opposite from the way he is going) - I don't think Joe Blow would notice it really. I usually wait for the "ohhh I'm supposed to be thinking" pause and then immediately do what you listed here as your MO. The combo is working well thus far - although I have to be honest and say I've only used it a couple of times.


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## Mrs.K

Jason L said:


> I agree with Falon. I would use a dominant collar, especially if it is already clear to you the prong amps the dogs up.
> 
> Also I have no problem correcting Ike in front of everyone if the occasion calls for it. Correction is all about timing. If I see a dog coming and put Ike in a sit far enough away from the dog (this is where you have to be fair and not ask the impossible) and then he breaks the sit because he is busy mouthing off to that dog, you better believe there will be a correction coming. If people want to watch or say something, let them.


That is what I did at Petco the other day. I went there after the SAR training and wanted to get them a rewards. As always. When Indra is alone, she will be a good girl but as soon as she is with the puppy she is mouthing off. Even the clerks were surprised at her sounding so ferocious. 

They already know and love her because she is always so well behaved. I was at the register and a line of people behind me when she went off and I did correct her. At that moment I didn't care what others think. I put her back into the sit and told her to shut up in a strong and demanding voice. If there wasn't a line of people behind me i would have made her make eye contact to me but at that point I was letting her go with just shutting up.


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## hunterisgreat

Jason L said:


> I agree with Falon. I would use a dominant collar, especially if it is already clear to you the prong amps the dogs up.
> 
> Also I have no problem correcting Ike in front of everyone if the occasion calls for it. Correction is all about timing. If I see a dog coming and put Ike in a sit far enough away from the dog (this is where you have to be fair and not ask the impossible) and then he breaks the sit because he is busy mouthing off to that dog, you better believe there will be a correction coming. If people want to watch or say something, let them.


Well... let me clarify a bit. I have no issue correcting my dog with whatever is the correct level in front of anyone including the president of PETA. My male is quiet about it. Katya can make a scene. Her fur is so short I can't hid anything, but thats one of my interests in the HS neck-tech in black finish. Anyone who knew what it was would also know I'm not abusing my dog. 

I'm working with a trainer to reintroduce the prong to her. When I first started with her she was so crazy drivey that she was auto-correcting so fast I couldn't control the situation so I pulled the prong for the time being. I used one on her with success on Sunday... it just required really keeping it positive pre and post correction to prevent hurt feelings. She certainly has the pain tolerance... we're just slowly learning that its not personal, just business

Last summer I corrected my male at a dog-bar last summer and a woman jumped up yelled at her husband "We have to leave right now! I can sit here and watch that man abuse his dog"... of course she had a maltese or something like that... I would like to not have that be a regular occurrence in public solely b/c I don't think its a good image to burn into the ignorant minds out there. When I'm out in town with my dogs (which is **** near every day) I want to be an ambassador for the breed and show people that GSD's aren't monsters, that protection work doesn't make for a monster and quite the opposite. Funny thing was the restaurant owner saw the whole thing and said "good riddance.. that was a severe over reaction".


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## Liesje

I think the slip collar looks and works a lot better when a dog is going into a reactive frenzy. A prong "correction" for my dog is not really a correction unless it's two-handed with some gusto behind it. That certainly does not look appropriate in public, and IMO is not appropriate in that situation. The slip collar gives you control without stimming the dog even more. It's not even that the dog associates a prong correction with the presence of the other dog, but if you have a dog in a very elevated state of drive, you are just nagging the dog and actually bringing out more drive and frustration rather than bringing the dog down.

Ideally though, the dog never gets to the point where s/he is aroused enough to react, but if he does, the "dominant dog" collar gives you control and a way to take the dog down a few notches. I personally would not put one on and go out *looking* for situations where the dog will react so you can use the collar, but have it on as a tool as needed, and hopefully when the dog starts to give signals s/he is going to react, you can move away from the trigger, redirect the dog and get the focus back.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> I think the slip collar looks and works a lot better when a dog is going into a reactive frenzy. A prong "correction" for my dog is not really a correction unless it's two-handed with some gusto behind it. That certainly does not look appropriate in public, and IMO is not appropriate in that situation. The slip collar gives you control without stimming the dog even more. It's not even that the dog associates a prong correction with the presence of the other dog, but if you have a dog in a very elevated state of drive, you are just nagging the dog and actually bringing out more drive and frustration rather than bringing the dog down.
> 
> Ideally though, the dog never gets to the point where s/he is aroused enough to react, but if he does, the "dominant dog" collar gives you control and a way to take the dog down a few notches. I personally would not put one on and go out *looking* for situations where the dog will react so you can use the collar, but have it on as a tool as needed, and hopefully when the dog starts to give signals s/he is going to react, you can move away from the trigger, redirect the dog and get the focus back.


Well, it def increases the drive & frustration... but I've had and seen a correction to pretty calm dogs be mistaken for a nearby dog (10 feetish) somehow using the force to hurt them, and fully "blame" that dog for it.

I've gotten much better at seeing it coming.. before there is any noise, or any reaction, and the prong or even a good fur-saver pop is able to keep it at bay... still don't know fully why some dogs get the reaction and some dont... suspect they are making eye contact and I'm not catching that.. but it's always with dogs that aren't going to back down or cower so its almost definitely a challenge thing.

The only time its happened with a submissive dog was we were in my garage and a lady with a 40lbish dog was walking off lead and her dog came trotting into my yard, which got an immediate chase with me in pursuit (So proud, my male never got out of a down despite growling and wanting to defend the homefront). When she snapped out of it, she immediately submitted to me and was on her back before I got to her... but this was really the ladies fault (off lead off your property is illegal here as most places). Oddly, the lady apologized and left (I'm on a dead end)... then repeated this 30 mins later off lead and out of control but on the other side of the road. This time, Katya responded to the stay command. So we are getting better


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## W.Oliver

hunterisgreat said:


> ...... I corrected my male at a dog-bar last summer and a woman jumped up yelled at her husband "We have to leave right now! I can sit here and watch that man abuse his dog"... of course she had a maltese or something like that... I would like to not have that be a regular occurrence in public solely b/c I don't think its a good image to burn into the ignorant minds out there. When I'm out in town with my dogs (which is **** near every day) I want to be an ambassador for the breed and show people that GSD's aren't monsters, that protection work doesn't make for a monster and quite the opposite......


Totally agree with you & Jason and others....correction whenever/wherever required to the appropriate degree, regardless of audience. I take my dogs with me EVERYWHERE, and for whatever reason God has smiled upon me, I have yet to experience "that man abuse his dog" thing......I am not sure how I would react??? I also strive to be an ambassador of GSDs, protection work, and responsible dog ownership....but at the same time I can't suffer fools....sounds like you are a better man than I! I hope I never find myself in that circumstance, but I fear the odds are against me??


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## hunterisgreat

W.Oliver said:


> Totally agree with you & Jason and others....correction whenever/wherever required to the appropriate degree, regardless of audience. I take my dogs with me EVERYWHERE, and for whatever reason God has smiled upon me, I have yet to experience "that man abuse his dog" thing......I am not sure how I would react??? I also strive to be an ambassador of GSDs, protection work, and responsible dog ownership....but at the same time I can't suffer fools....sounds like you are a better man than I! I hope I never find myself in that circumstance, but I fear the odds are against me??


I was just sort of shocked. Nothing came out of my mouth. Everyone out on the patio laughed after they left. Then I said "AHh... I should have said to her boyfriend/husband 'I have my bitch under control. You need to do the same guy!'"... too bad for good comebacks not realized


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## W.Oliver

hunterisgreat said:


> ....... "AHh... I should have said to her boyfriend/husband 'I have my bitch under control. You need to do the same guy!'".....


OK, that I can relate too! :rofl:


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## Jason L

You know how some dogs are collar wise. Perfect angel if a prong or an ecollar is on them and then just completely out of control on a fursaver or a flat ... well, dogs can be "street" wise too. If they act like idiots in public and never get corrected, then soon they get the idea: "Oh, when I am outside, when I am at Petco, I can do whatever I want." That's why if I were in Mrs K. situation, I would do the exact same thing. Whatever you would normally do at home to correct your dog, do the same thing in public. Once the understanding and the obedience is there in the dog, then it's fair game as far as correction goes. This may sound "bad" but the dogs need to know I can "get them" anytime, anywhere .. not just in training or if no one is watching.


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## hunterisgreat

Jason L said:


> You know how some dogs are collar wise. Perfect angel if a prong or an ecollar is on them and then just completely out of control on a fursaver or a flat ... well, dogs can be "street" wise too. If they act like idiots in public and never get corrected, then soon they get the idea: "Oh, when I am outside, when I am at Petco, I can do whatever I want." That's why if I were in Mrs K. situation, I would do the exact same thing. Whatever you would normally do at home to correct your dog, do the same thing in public. Once the understanding and the obedience is there in the dog, then it's fair game as far as correction goes. This may sound "bad" but the dogs need to know I can "get them" anytime, anywhere .. not just in training or if no one is watching.


Yeah, if you asked my friends & neighbors, they'd tell you I have no issue correcting my dogs in front of anyone. I also constantly put on prong collars when I'm not training. Leave agitation collars on. Correct with whatever collar is on, and generally try and mix it up enough that no one hopefully associates a specific device with a "time to behave". I learned that from a friend who's dog only behaved when he saw his handler pull the ecollar out of the truck. He used a broken ecollar for years lol. Just wearing it was enough for the dog to know that it wasn't time to mess around.

I corrected my male hard in front of one neighbor once and he said "I don't think that was necessary, that was too harsh" and I was like "Yeah? How many 90lb protection dogs have you handled?" and he immediately back peddled and acknowledged I probably know more about dog training than he did (has no dog)

He's not trained as a PPD, but the difference would have been lost on this guy


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## clearcreekranch

Wow. I guess you guys are saying that I am on the right track. Learn when and how my dog reacts in situations and work toward getting the desired behavior. I think that given Wolf's age and how far that we have come, if we continue our training, he will be fine. I have gotten a lot of good advice and insight with this thread. You guys, need to speak up more often. LOL We will be going on an outing today and sometime again later in the week. We are also going to a horse show in Scottsdale and it is a 12 day trip. We should both learn a lot. Thanks again.


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## hunterisgreat

clearcreekranch said:


> Wow. I guess you guys are saying that I am on the right track. Learn when and how my dog reacts in situations and work toward getting the desired behavior. I think that given Wolf's age and how far that we have come, if we continue our training, he will be fine. I have gotten a lot of good advice and insight with this thread. You guys, need to speak up more often. LOL We will be going on an outing today and sometime again later in the week. We are also going to a horse show in Scottsdale and it is a 12 day trip. We should both learn a lot. Thanks again.


Lol.. I've been a member for 9 days... at 300 posts I wouldn't say I've been quiet with my opinions lol
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/introductions-welcome-mat/150915-hello-charleston-sc.html


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## Mrs.K

Once I corrected Indra in front of my husband. It was harsh, I admit that. It was really harsh but at that point I had to do it. He was shocked of me being that harsh because usually I am all about positive re-inforcement.
She ran on the road and ignored my re-call. Once I got her I did what I never wanted to do. I actually grabbed her neck-coat and pulled her towards me with "HIER!" "HIER!" "HIER!" all the way back into the house. It was a physical correction and one of the harshest I have ever used. Pretty darn old-school and what I've seen in many clubs and never wanted to use. But at that point I figured I'd rather use that instead of her getting run over by a car. 

Believe it or not, ever since that day she listens. Sometimes she will stop and look at me like "Huh? Whatchawahnt?" and then all I have to do is to lower my voice and say "Hier!" and she will fly towards me and she's not scared of me either nor won't she duck and it most certainly did not scar her for life. 

Sometimes physical corrections are truly necessary and they know when they went to far. They are not stupid. Once you know what they are capable of learning you know they are not stupid.


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Once I corrected Indra in front of my husband. It was harsh, I admit that. It was really harsh but at that point I had to do it. He was shocked of me being that harsh because usually I am all about positive re-inforcement.
> She ran on the road and ignored my re-call. Once I got her I did what I never wanted to do. I actually grabbed her neck-coat and pulled her towards me with "HIER!" "HIER!" "HIER!" all the way back into the house. It was a physical correction and one of the harshest I have ever used. Pretty darn old-school and what I've seen in many clubs and never wanted to use. But at that point I figured I'd rather use that instead of her getting run over by a car.
> 
> Believe it or not, ever since that day she listens. Sometimes she will stop and look at me like "Huh? Whatchawahnt?" and then all I have to do is to lower my voice and say "Hier!" and she will fly towards me and she's not scared of me either nor won't she duck and it most certainly did not scar her for life.
> 
> Sometimes physical corrections are truly necessary and they know when they went to far. They are not stupid. Once you know what they are capable of learning you know they are not stupid.


I have a rule that anything that will endanger the dog or a person is a behavior I wish to extinguish, not modify, and as such I deliver the harshest correction I can. I WANT that correction to happen once and be remembered forever as a horrible experience. I correct, give it a few minutes to sink in and for me to try to cooldown, and then bring the dog back to me for some love and consoling, or the best facsimile that I can muster (I'm probably pissed at this point)


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## Vandal

A little training BEFORE you go out in public can go a long way.

I will say this about training dogs in public..... and that is what you are doing ...or trying to do anyway.....whether you want to call it socialization or not. Your appearance and demeanor will make all the difference as far as how people, ( and your dog), view your corrections. If you are loud and look angry, yep, they will not approve. You can give a really sturdy correction when your demeanor stays friendly and calm without getting any negative reaction from the people....or your dog. Just something to consider and not just for PR but for the sake of your dog. How disturbed the people are can many times be seen in your dog as well.


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## Vandal

I will add this as well for the original poster. While people have commented on how loose or tight the leash is, I either missed it, or didn't see any comments about YOU. How you are feeling or were feeling during that encounter. What I read is a situation where you knew their might be a problem. Most people, unless they are half dead, will feel anxiety or become more tense when they are expecting something to go wrong. While holding the leash a certain way can certainly affect what goes on, what is traveling down that leash makes all the difference. If you are telling your dog with your body language , that something is wrong, what is in front of you becomes the source of that and puts the dog on alert or on edge. At that point, all it takes is one wrong move and your dog will react.


It is exceptionally important that you are in control of your emotions in these situations. This is one reason I tell people to not allow other people to pet their dogs. It is not simply about the un-natural way people behave and reach for your dog, it is in the anxiety that can build in the handler during those encounters. It is not easy to learn to stay calm and convey to your dog that you have it all under control and don't need their "help". However, it is absolutely necessary when you handle dogs who are bred to react with aggression to threats. You might say a child should not be a threat but if your body language signals to the dog that it is, well, for the dog, it is! Might have to think about that for a minute to understand what I am saying but you have to always ask yourself, "how am I feeling?" If you are nervous or tense in certain situations, DON'T go there with the dog. Not until you have a grip on yourself and have enough training on the dog to feel in control.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> A little training BEFORE you go out in public can go a long way.
> 
> I will say this about training dogs in public..... and that is what you are doing ...or trying to do anyway.....whether you want to call it socialization or not. Your appearance and demeanor will make all the difference as far as how people, ( and your dog), view your corrections. If you are loud and look angry, yep, they will not approve. You can give a really sturdy correction when your demeanor stays friendly and calm without getting any negative reaction from the people....or your dog. Just something to consider and not just for PR but for the sake of your dog. How disturbed the people are can many times be seen in your dog as well.


I've been guilty of that before, but I've got a good handle on that now. My corrections are always calm and firm at this point and fortunately my dogs (mainly male) were good enough to take my mistakes in stride without losing any enthusiasm to work. If I ever do get half-way to temper/over frustration, I just put the dogs up immediately and have a beer or something lol. I don't allow the chance for me to lose my cool anymore.

I wouldn't say I'm training in public really... I never really am not training. Since they are with me all the time, I deal with bad behavior with a 30 sec obedience refresh. I probably do article searches every day or so. I'll even just do stuff on the way to the toilet. I have a busy busy life so setting aside an hour for training at a set time is rarely a reality, so mine is scattered out through the day & night.

I dunno how it is everywhere else, but even here you get weird looks for a mild collar pop on a flat collar... lots of folks believe positive reinforcement is the only tool in the toolbox and everything else is evil.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> A little training BEFORE you go out in public can go a long way.
> 
> I will say this about training dogs in public..... and that is what you are doing ...or trying to do anyway.....whether you want to call it socialization or not. Your appearance and demeanor will make all the difference as far as how people, ( and your dog), view your corrections. If you are loud and look angry, yep, they will not approve. You can give a really sturdy correction when your demeanor stays friendly and calm without getting any negative reaction from the people....or your dog. Just something to consider and not just for PR but for the sake of your dog. How disturbed the people are can many times be seen in your dog as well.


Honestly, if your dog is going off in a manner where people already are disturbed and make a step back just because it's a big bad GSD I sure won't stay friendly making small talk. 

It's rare occassions and barely happens but when it happens, I quickly correct the dog so nobody even gets a chance to say anything and yes, staying calm and firm is important. I am not all over the place being upset "Oh my god what am I going to do." It's a swift, quick correction with a firm (some call it loud) voice. I bet you that people would actually be far more disturbed if I let her do what she wanted to do...


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I will add this as well for the original poster. While people have commented on how loose or tight the leash is, I either missed it, or didn't see any comments about YOU. How you are feeling or were feeling during that encounter. What I read is a situation where you knew their might be a problem. Most people, unless they are half dead, will feel anxiety or become more tense when they are expecting something to go wrong. While holding the leash a certain way can certainly affect what goes on, what is traveling down that leash makes all the difference. If you are telling your dog with your body language , that something is wrong, what is in front of you becomes the source of that and puts the dog on alert or on edge. At that point, all it takes is one wrong move and your dog will react.
> 
> 
> It is exceptionally important that you are in control of your emotions in these situations. This is one reason I tell people to not allow other people to pet their dogs. It is not simply about the un-natural way people behave and reach for your dog, it is in the anxiety that can build in the handler during those encounters. It is not easy to learn to stay calm and convey to your dog that you have it all under control and don't need their "help". However, it is absolutely necessary when you handle dogs who are bred to react with aggression to threats. You might say a child should not be a threat but if your body language signals to the dog that it is, well, for the dog, it is! Might have to think about that for a minute to understand what I am saying but you have to always ask yourself, "how am I feeling?" If you are nervous or tense in certain situations, DON'T go there with the dog. Not until you have a grip on yourself and have enough training on the dog to feel in control.


Agreed, and the big issue is its a positive feedback cycle... the less you trust the dog, the more you get tense, which tenses the dog, which causes more incidents, which lowers your trust further... very difficult to break that cycle and takes a great deal of focus on your part. My female gets much worse if I'm not basically whispering her to calm herself and petting her.


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## hunterisgreat

The funny thing is if I've got my hands full with her for the moment, I drop Jager's leash and people sometimes freak about that so I've got to assure them "trust me, you don't have to worry about him. She is my concern". He'll just come next to me and lay down. He has no desire whatsoever to get in a dog fight... strange


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## Samba

I would like to speak to the owner's emotional state also. When I first got GSDs, Anne was the first person to clearly point this out to me. It is not always easy to alter one's emtional state. It is something these dogs will teach you how to do!

One of my GSDs is very tuned to me and very protective ...possessing aggression to back it up. She did not like people petting her so that was a bit of work. Fortunately, she had a penchant for treats. I put greeting people on cue and worked with acquaintances. She qickly learned to offer a fake greeting and look back to me for reward. I got a trained social behavior. Did it change who the dog was? I don't think so. I believe it mostly helped me to feel comfortable and changed much of the dynamic. The dog probably did do better because she loves to work to please.

I am sure I have screwed up dog reactivity with corrections. I unfortunately had some emotion going on and would correct. Fastest way I have ever found to solidify aggressive reactions.

If


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## Vandal

It is always interesting when people go on and on about motivational training yet seem to lack the understanding that anger has no place in dog training. They use treats in sport training but when the need to teach real obedience comes along, they think that anger must be applied along with the corrections. I guess I am putting you guys on the spot but two of you commented about "cooling down" and being out of control angry because your dog did something that frightened you. Yep, we are all people and we are all capable of that. The difference is recognizing that your anger didn't have a thing to do with how well your dog learned something, quite the opposite but you have convinced yourselves that it did. 

When those situations happen, you need to go back and train what you want AFTER you are calm, so the dog can learn. When you apply the harshest correction you can muster and mix it with anger, you are not "really" getting compliance. You are getting a dog who thinks you are dangerous and that in itself can cause the dog to make mistakes. With all due respect Mrs K, this has nothing to do with speed or quickness in correcting or small talk, it has to do with keeping things clear to your dog. Most people have a hard time learning when someone is yelling in their face and it is the same for dogs. Certainly it is okay to convey to the dog you are not happy but it should not come through anger. That will work against you every time.

This is something that I have tried to convey to people on these boards but rarely do they get it when it is written. You have to see the difference in the dog, and how fast they learn, when the handler is in control of themselves.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> It is always interesting when people go on and on about motivational training yet seem to lack the understanding that anger has no place in dog training. They use treats in sport training but when the need to teach real obedience comes along, they think that anger must be applied along with the corrections. I guess I am putting you guys on the spot but two of you commented about "cooling down" and being out of control angry because your dog did something that frightened you. Yep, we are all people and we are all capable of that. The difference is recognizing that your anger didn't have a thing to do with how well your dog learned something, quite the opposite but you have convinced yourselves that it did.
> 
> When those situations happen, you need to go back and train what you want AFTER you are calm, so the dog can learn. When you apply the harshest correction you can muster and mix it with anger, you are not "really" getting compliance. You are getting a dog who thinks you are dangerous and that in itself can cause the dog to make mistakes. With all due respect Mrs K, this has nothing to do with speed or quickness in correcting or small talk, it has to do with keeping things clear to your dog. Most people have a hard time learning when someone is yelling in their face and it is the same for dogs. Certainly it is okay to convey to the dog you are not happy but it should not come through anger. That will work against you every time.
> 
> This is something that I have tried to convey to people on these boards but rarely do they get it when it is written. You have to see the difference in the dog, and how fast they learn, when the handler is in control of themselves.


I thought I made it pretty clear that if I'm getting frustrated, I put my dogs up immediately. I have made the mistake, but haven't in a long time and do not correct or even train angry or flustered. I've seen the difference and the point is far from lost on me.


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## hunterisgreat

hunterisgreat said:


> I've been guilty of that before, but I've got a good handle on that now. My corrections are always calm and firm at this point and fortunately my dogs (mainly male) were good enough to take my mistakes in stride without losing any enthusiasm to work. If I ever do get half-way to temper/over frustration, I just put the dogs up immediately and have a beer or something lol. I don't allow the chance for me to lose my cool anymore.


See?


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## Mrs.K

> Mrs K, this has nothing to do with speed or quickness in correcting or small talk, it has to do with keeping things clear to your dog. Most people have a hard time learning when someone is yelling in their face and it is the same for dogs. Certainly it is okay to convey to the dog you are not happy but it should not come through anger. That will work against you every time.


I believe there is a big difference between yelling and a firm voice. I don't know how you actually think we correct the dogs but I would never yell at my dog at petco or in public. Things are being kept clear to the dog. Especially at Petco. A correction doesn't mean that you stand there frantically yelling at the dog. I don't know where you got that from.


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## Vandal

I was responding to this Hunter:



> I have a rule that anything that will endanger the dog or a person is a behavior I wish to extinguish, not modify, and as such I deliver the harshest correction I can. I WANT that correction to happen once and be remembered forever as a horrible experience. I correct, give it a few minutes to sink in and for me to try to cooldown, and then bring the dog back to me for some love and consoling, or the best facsimile that I can muster (I'm probably pissed at this point)


It was not written in past tense, and that is why I included you.


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> I thought I made it pretty clear that if I'm getting frustrated, I put my dogs up immediately. I have made the mistake, but haven't in a long time and do not correct or even train angry or flustered. I've seen the difference and the point is far from lost on me.


I made it once that I let emotions come into play and that was when she went on the road and nearly got run over. I believe we ALL are guilty to let our emotions come into play every once in a while. 

However, when I truly get frustrated during training I put the dog away because it doesn't make any sense to keep going. But that one time where I actually grabbed her at the neck was the one time I really let emotions into play.


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## Vandal

People don't learn when you put them on the defense either. lol. So, consider that as well because it is related to what I am talking about.
. 
I am sure people will miss the point, like I said, this is something to see more than discuss. Samba saw it, so, she understands it. I don't think anyone who knows me would say I am all about cookies or small talk or not being firm. hehehe.

Edited to add: I am not just talking anger here either. Tension puts dogs on alert and that is the point I wanted to make the most in this thread. In protection training, ( no not like most SchH is done now), the handler has a role to play. How I behave when I am handling my dog in protection , I see in people who call their dogs 'reactive". Many times, the dogs are "reacting" to the handler.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I was responding to this Hunter:
> 
> 
> 
> It was not written in past tense, and that is why I included you.


Yeah ok I see where that was conflicting. By pissed, I don't mean losing my temper or anything. More like, displeased with what just transpired or potentially upset. I can be "pissed' and frustrated at a bad training session, but still be completely calm cool and collected and not garner the "boss is angry" reaction from the dog, which if I get this reaction thats where I draw the line regardless of what I'm doing. My female sometimes miss reads me and I get the sad face even when I'm not at all pissed. Sometimes it happens totally outside of training any exercise. No idea why that is. A ball fixes it quick enough.

There are also scenarios where inaction is not possible nor is keeping calm. Like if my dog chased a squirrel right infront of a moving car, I'd not be able to control my panic at that point.


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## Mrs.K

And by the way. Schutzhund people of all people know that you can't train with motivation only. There is a time where EVERYBODY starts using a prong-collar and corrects the dog with the prong collar in a manner that many people would call abusive. Standing there, with a tight leash, almost strangling the dog and popping the prong in a harsh manner three to five times isn't exactly what I would call motivational. 
Neither is using an e-coller to agitate the dog or to teach him the out and pushing it to a level where he starts yelping. 

We all know that that is practiced on a daily basis all over the world. Especially when you reach the Schutzhund 3 Level and it's not all done with the clicker and a happy "yes" only. Because there is a point where you have to do it in order to get where you want to be. 

And a quick correction, popping a flat collar, using your hand to reach out to the dog to get him next to you and to say "AH-AH!" in a firm voice is not even close to what is used on the training field to correct a dog.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> People don't learn when you put them on the defense either. lol. So, consider that as well because it is related to what I am talking about.
> .
> I am sure people will miss the point, like I said, this is something to see more than discuss. Samba saw it, so, she understands it. I don't think anyone who knows me would say I am all about cookies or small talk or not being firm. hehehe.
> 
> Edited to add: I am not just talking anger here either. Tension puts dogs on alert and that is the point I wanted to make the most in this thread. In protection training, ( no not like most SchH is done now), the handler has a role to play and how I behave when I am handling my dog in protection , I see in people who call their dogs 'reactive". Many times, the dogs are "reacting" to the handler.


I completely understand the above. I've also seen protection training first hand.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I was responding to this Hunter:
> 
> 
> 
> It was not written in past tense, and that is why I included you.


And also caveat with, this is far and away not something that happens often. I can probably count on one hand for both dogs together.


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## Mrs.K

> Edited to add: I am not just talking anger here either. Tension puts dogs on alert and that is the point I wanted to make the most in this thread. In protection training, ( no not like most SchH is done now), the handler has a role to play and how I behave when I am handling my dog in protection , I see in people who call their dogs 'reactive". Many times, the dogs are "reacting" to the handler.


That is very true and I fully agree with it. Especially when you have an insecure handler who is scared of pretty much everything the dog feels the insecurity and will react to it. Which is why body-language plays a huge role. 

I think it's comparable to the people that are literally victims all their life. People pick up on the body-langauge and those are the kids that are bullied.


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## Vandal

> My female sometimes miss reads me and I get the sad face even when I'm not at all pissed. Sometimes it happens totally outside of training any exercise. No idea why that is. A ball fixes it quick enough.


I will take a stab at explaining this.

People are amazing creatures of habit. They convey things in their body without even realizing it. What you did before the times you got angry, ( that you are counting on your hand ), the dog did not miss. They see the most subtle behaviors in us and that includes what proceeds a bad experience. Depending on the amount of anger you showed to your dog, once is enough to forever damage the dog's trust and burn in their memory everything you did before you got mad. You don't have to escalate to anger for the dog to react because they chain things together. They will try to avoid, as soon as possible, the event that frightened them in the past. Even when you are not training, the dogs will spot something you did in the past before you got mad and react to it. This is particularly true in females , who rarely "forget".

This is not directed at anyone in particular: 
GSDs are famous for their willingness to work with their person. They have a sensitivity that many dogs lack. That willingness is associated with their ability to read us. Long before there were toys and treats and e-collars, there were dogs who would please us just for the satisfaction of doing that. This is about understanding the breed you are trying to train . So many do not take the time to do that and the dogs are always the ones blamed. They are reacting to us more times than we might want to admit, so, for me, it is about looking at ourselves first, before we blame the dog or label them with all the new versions of aggression or fear or even medical ailments.


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## Samba

I can't be pissed, upset or disapppinted amd fool my dogs on ant way. Just never have achieved that. When that happens, the better part of valor is for me to call it quits then.

I don't alwYs traon positively, ever. But there are certain dogs and situations where that is going to make mae the most confident and at ease. Based on the premise discussed here, that translates into effectiveness.

I own my weight in pinch collars. On certain dogs and situatipns thatakes me most calm and effective.

I don't think I "saw" anything quickly and made mistakes that proved out what I had been told. Still make them, hopefully less.

Anne is very good at the effective correction. There is much more to the picture than just the collar and leash.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I will take a stab at explaining this.
> 
> People are amazing creatures of habit. They convey things in their body without even realizing it. What you did before the times you got angry, ( that you are counting on your hand ), the dog did not miss. They see the most subtle behaviors in us and that includes what proceeds a bad experience. Depending on the amount of anger you showed to your dog, once is enough to forever damage the dog's trust and burn in their memory everything you did before you got mad. You don't have to escalate to anger for the dog to react because they chain things together. They will try to avoid, as soon as possible, the event that frightened them in the past. Even when you are not training, the dogs will spot something you did in the past before you got mad and react to it. This is particularly true in females , who rarely "forget".
> 
> This is not directed at anyone in particular:
> GSDs are famous for their willingness to work with their person. They have a sensitivity that many dogs lack. That willingness is associated with their ability to read us. Long before there were toys and treats and e-collars, there were dogs who would please us just for the satisfaction of doing that. This is about understanding the breed you are trying to train . So many do not take the time to do that and the dogs are always the ones blamed. They are reacting to us more times than we might want to admit, so, for me, it is about looking at ourselves first, before we blame the dog or label them with all the new versions of aggression or fear or even medical ailments.


I'm sure thats what it is if I'm reading her emotions right, but I've got no clue what the que is. Also, if she's waiting for a treat you get the same sad face, so it might not be sad face. When she's waiting for release command her ears are always back. Also when she's really happy. And the dog doesn't stop wagging its tail ever lol... which seems odd for a GSD.

So, while I could liment over what I may have done wrong in the past (and I'll probably never know), she's more than willing to work and train so just gotta keep moving forward  For what its worth, the trainer on Sunday told me I wasn't correcting enough with her or my male lol


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## Samba

Hey, I can not type on an iphone or an ipad. i give up!


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## hunterisgreat

Samba said:


> Hey, I can not type on an iphone or an ipad. i give up!


I almost asked if you were drunk


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## hunterisgreat

I just did my best to appear angry and all I got was a lick for my troubles


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## onyx'girl

When someone whispers, do we listen more closely than when someone yells or speaks firmly? 
I think a dog that is getting ramped up in a pet store situation will calm with quiet words and redirection better than the owner commanding them in a loud firm voice. JMO...


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## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> When someone whispers, do we listen more than when someone yells or speaks firmly?
> I think a dog that is getting ramped up in a pet store situation will calm with quiet words better than the owner commanding them in a loud firm voice. JMO...


Side note.. got me to thinking. This doesn't happen at the dog park, and doesn't happen at the pet store where there are lots of dogs. Only when its a one on one thing or only a few dogs present at say, a dog friendly eatery and the two dogs are clearly focused on each other.


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## clearcreekranch

Ok, since you guys are still going and going...........Wolf and I just got back from the truck inspection place and the feed store. He was very excited, but not over the top when we got out of the truck. He wanted to bark at the strangers at the first stop (and a pigeon). I corrected and walked him around until he re-focused on me. He was pretty much fine after that. I did not get in close contact with anyone. At the feed store he did pretty much the same thing, barked at the boys loading feed when we first pulled up and a lady with a suitcase on wheels in the store. After that, calm and non-reactive.

I use 2 collars when I am out in public. A prong but a backup fursaver on the dead ring. I know that I am losing some of the effectiveness with the prong because of the 2nd collar. I am sure that the prong is fitted properly, but I am still a little leery of using it without a backup. 

Any other suggestions on how to increase the prong's effectiveness. I know it works really well on it's own, but with the 2nd collar, he needs more correction repetitions.

And a side note, I don't get angry with him, but I am probably tense. I was born that way. LOL But I am working on it.


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## Samba

Does he have a down stay?

I put the back up slip on live ring. Have a large enough slip.


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## hunterisgreat

It was pointed out to me sunday that I need to move my male to a smaller prong collar... not diameter, but prong size. This will make it more effective. Also, you can look into the HS neck-tech collars... looks like you have a short haired dog so it should work, and they "appear" to be much less likely to come apart on you... especially with how everyone says how impossibly painful it is to remove/add links


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## clearcreekranch

Samba said:


> Does he have a down stay?
> 
> I put the back up slip on live ring. Have a large enough slip.


Yes, he does, but he is still learning. I will try the live ring on the fursaver.

And thanks, Hunter. I had not heard of the HS prong collar. Since I put his prong on tight, he feels the correction and it has not come off. It has come off when I tried adding a link because I thought it was too tight. He can still breathe with it where it's at, so I guess, it's not too tight.....????????

Thoughts on the dominant dog collar?


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## Jason L

Samba said:


> Hey, I can not type on an iphone or an ipad. i give up!


That read like a babelfish translation!


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## Samba

Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar

I am not about this for aggression to people and dogs. I have never needed such. I might like it one were coming up the leash at me.

I would get your obedience worked on at home. The dogs really needs some obed skills before going out and about. One female I had was e 
Excitable and reactive. A down stay at the perimeter of the exciting area. Correction was for breaking down stay, not aggression. In the down long enough, energy dissipated and we could gradually move our down closer. This makes it clear to dog what is expected. I found it much easier for dog to understand this for obedience rather than for dog to realize correction was for aggression. That correction for aggression can be harder to figure out.

I don't think one needs to really worry about exactness of collar and type. This work is really not so much a out the collar.0


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## Northern GSDs

> I would get your obedience worked on at home. The dogs really needs some obed skills before going out and about. One female I had was e
> Excitable and reactive. A down stay at the perimeter of the exciting area. Correction was for breaking down stay, not aggression. In the down long enough, energy dissipated and we could gradually move our down closer. This makes it clear to dog what is expected. I found it much easier for dog to understand this for obedience rather than for dog to realize correction was for aggression. That correction for aggression can be harder to figure out.
> 
> I don't think one needs to really worry about exactness of collar and type. This work is really not so much a out the collar.0


I have to agree with this - very well said.


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## FG167

clearcreekranch said:


> Any other suggestions on how to increase the prong's effectiveness. I know it works really well on it's own, but with the 2nd collar, he needs more correction repetitions.


I have seen THESE work fairly well. It's to connect the two collar together. So, if you're using the live ring on the prong - you can connect this to the other ring and the fursaver so it won't affect your corrections but your collars will still be connected if something happens and your pinch comes off...



Samba said:


> Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar
> 
> I am not about this for aggression to people and dogs.
> 
> A down stay at the perimeter of the exciting area. Correction was for breaking down stay, not aggression. In the down long enough, energy dissipated and we could gradually move our down closer. This makes it clear to dog what is expected. I found it much easier for dog to understand this for obedience rather than for dog to realize correction was for aggression. That correction for aggression can be harder to figure out.


I am using the dom dog for situations where we cannot avoid the situation or prepare ahead of time. When he's already reacting before preventative actions can be taken.

All other times I have used the other method you stated here with really positive results.

So, if he's reacting (hackling only) to someone in my parking lot, we sit still and watch them until he loses interest and his hackles go down. 

If we turn the corner and a little yapper lunges at us snapping and barking and he fully reacts (snapping and SCREAMING back) then the dom dog is a nicer way to go...for now. This is something I've just begun using so I'm still getting used to it etc....


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## dogmama

Samba said:


> Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar
> 
> 
> I would get your obedience worked on at home. The dogs really needs some obed skills before going out and about. One female I had was e
> Excitable and reactive. A down stay at the perimeter of the exciting area. Correction was for breaking down stay, not aggression. In the down long enough, energy dissipated and we could gradually move our down closer. This makes it clear to dog what is expected. I found it much easier for dog to understand this for obedience rather than for dog to realize correction was for aggression. That correction for aggression can be harder to figure out.
> 
> I don't think one needs to really worry about exactness of collar and type. This work is really not so much a out the collar.0


++1

My experience - when I react to aggression with aggression, it got worse. I did "Control Unleashed" with Zack for his dog aggression. Basically, it's "I see a dog, I get a cookie - dogs are good! I should focus on Mom, not on that dog!" A couple of weeks ago, a large GSD growled & lunged at Zack. His head snapped over to me like "Hand it over & make it good!"

Back the OP's original problem - I NEVER let Zack socialize with children. I don't have children but I know their movements can be jerky & the dog can interpret this as a threat. He can walk past children & sit quietly while I talk to somebody who has a kid, but that kid isn't allowed to reach out & pet him. I don't want to test the limits on my insurance policy!


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## Samba

Anne put me on to getting the obedience early on when I had issues. I had given up the idea of competitive obed with my giirl. We worked in so many places using obedience where she had challeges. 

A dog who was once almost kicked out of an obed club was nationally ranked when I began competition. She was my Novice A dog. I had a lot to learn then and still do. Every dog as its own deals.

I didn't make that obedience in the places crushing or so difficult that the dog could not comply. Clear unemotional corrections worked well in this set up. I wasn't as keyed up.But, was sure the dog understood the obed behaviors and knew how to avoid the correction before I started. Don't want to add frustration unnecessarily, so the training homework has to happen.

I believe Anne mentioned the teamwork aspect of going out and about with these dogs. I am always amazed how much the handler plays a part. Many times I have been shocked at my dog in someone elses's hands. Then you realize just how connected the dog is. I never feel this with the Beagle! I am an anchor holding on to a rabbitt detecting machine then. Hehe


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## Liesje

Once thing that saddens me - and this is not unique to Schutzhund people, but maybe SchH people tend to make the mistake of expecting too much out of their dogs too soon? - is the extent to which people will force their dogs into situations that are clearly uncomfortable for the dog. I really do not like flooding for training and behavior modification. If a dog shows me very clearly that it is NOT comfortable being a certain distance to other people and/or dogs, I back off and work on building more trust and more confidence in a safer zone. At my all-breed club I see so many people that think the answer is to force the dog into a reaction so they can either correct the dog until it shuts down, or try to sweet talk the dog with treats or a toy after the dog is already in a frenzy frothing at the mouth. I really believe that the trick to many of these behavior problems involves letting the dog grow up without the constant pressure and being pushed into uncomfortable situations, and focusing more on building a bond and mutually respectful relationship with the dog so that the dog has a reason to trust the handler and defer to the handler in situations that make the dog uncomfortable.


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## hunterisgreat

On a side note... interesting thread on Katya's pedigree in the pedigree section.. MrsK. is familiar with the dam's kennel and dogs from it.. says they will come up the leash on you lol. Might have a lot of dog on my hands here as we move forward with the bitework lol.


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## clearcreekranch

hunterisgreat said:


> On a side note... interesting thread on Katya's pedigree in the pedigree section.. MrsK. is familiar with the dam's kennel and dogs from it.. says they will come up the leash on you lol. Might have a lot of dog on my hands here as we move forward with the bitework lol.


:crazy:YIKES.....I watched the Leerburg Dominant Collar fitting video yesterday, supposed to keep the dog from doing that? Hope you were kidding.

Wolf never shows hackles just warning and/or excitable barking. I think after yesterday's excursions, we will both be fine. He does have a LOT of drive and his absolute favorite activity is either biting the sleeve at training/ "killing" his jolly ball. As I said previously, we are constantly working on obedience. He lives in the house and yes, I have very high expectations in that regard.


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## Mrs.K

You never know. 
What i saw from the video is that you will have to build more drive. She has a good drive but you have to build some more. We all have to. While Indra is completely obsessed, has tons of prey-drive... if I wanted to go the Schutzhund Route I would have to build & shape it. 

It also depends on how you train them. They train with a lot of defense and you can pretty much make any dog turn on the handler.


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> You never know.
> What i saw from the video is that you will have to build more drive. She has a good drive but you have to build some more. We all have to. While Indra is completely obsessed, has tons of prey-drive... if I wanted to go the Schutzhund Route I would have to build & shape it.
> 
> It also depends on how you train them. They train with a lot of defense and you can pretty much make any dog turn on the handler.


I'll see if I can get some video tomorrow night. She's getting more crazy every time we go out. Sunday (forgot to setup cam or I'd show) she moved to sleeve and we did some backups where she was getting nice deep hard bites with some aerobatics in there too lol


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## dogmama

Liesje said:


> I really do not like flooding for training and behavior modification. If a dog shows me very clearly that it is NOT comfortable being a certain distance to other people and/or dogs, I back off and work on building more trust and more confidence in a safer zone. At my all-breed club I see so many people that think the answer is to force the dog into a reaction so they can either correct the dog until it shuts down, or try to sweet talk the dog with treats or a toy after the dog is already in a frenzy frothing at the mouth. /QUOTE]
> 
> I saw a DVM with a specialty in behavior and she said the same thing as you just said. By the time the dog is frothing, it's too late because the adrenaline is flowing. She said the key is to build up gradually and establish good neuropathways in the brain. I had an issue with Zack riding in the car and the answer was NOT going cross-country :crazy:. We actually spent time sitting in the car in the garage & from there backed in & out, went down the block & came back, etc. It's called, "keeping them under threshold."
> 
> It takes time & LOTS of patience.


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## Vandal

What lies said. The idea is to first teach obedience so the dog knows what to do. Because the dog is trained, the handler feels more in control and is less likely to show that tension to their dog. Then, you start further back from the "distraction" or stress , where the dog is more comfortable, ( and so are you), and then work your way closer over days or weeks, or whatever it takes, depending on your dog's temperament and yours. Submerging a dog in stress rarely works for all the reasons I and others have already talked about.
The idea of the obedience is to teach your dog confidence. They learn when they sit there quietly, nothing bad happens and there is no stress . You are directing and telling the dog what to do using obedience, ( that he already knows), vs simply allowing them to display all the behaviors that go along with insecurity. That insecurity stems from no direction, corrections for behaviors that have not been trained and by being in the middle of something that causes the dog, ( and you), so much stress, they can't think.


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## Liesje

Exactly, it's not even that the dog needs to be SchH1 or CDX or whatever before it is under control in public but just the _process_ of working on obedience addresses any issues with the dog's confidence or the relationship with the handler.

When one of my dogs was young, I had an issue with him being very reactive towards other dogs (except MY other dogs). He would trigger very easily, and since I cannot control when another pedestrian is going to come by with another dog, I basically kept my dog home for several months while I just let him mature and worked on obedience foundation, learning to read him and him learning to trust and respond to me. After several months of NOT directly addressing the dog reactive issue, I was able to bring him out again and walk him past other dogs, show him in a ring nose-to-butt with other dogs, do Schutzhund obedience flights with multiple dogs on the field. It honestly just became a non-issue over time. I'm sure if I would have pushed it, I would have made something that started out as an issue of maturity into a dog that would always react towards other dogs and never be safe. It was not a choice between a prong collar or a choke collar, but a choice between using the "flooding" method or giving the dog some time and space to grow up. I went from having a dog that I could not walk around my neighborhood to having a dog that I put in a down-stay in the aisle at the pet store while I shop.

This issue has been a problem for me as far as the "all positive" trainer go. Sure they are doling out treats and toys but often they are the ones I see trying to flood the dog and force the dog into these uncomfortable situations over and over and over again, and then when the dog continues to escalate and react, their reason is because the treat isn't high value enough.


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> You never know.
> What i saw from the video is that you will have to build more drive. She has a good drive but you have to build some more. We all have to. While Indra is completely obsessed, has tons of prey-drive... if I wanted to go the Schutzhund Route I would have to build & shape it.
> 
> It also depends on how you train them. They train with a lot of defense and you can pretty much make any dog turn on the handler.


God has a sense of humor . Katya tagged me in the shin tonight after an out. No blood or bruise as she mostly got jeans and the sweatpants underneath... But she totally clamped on my jeans. Caught me off guard. Will have to be careful and aware where my face is. What is the correct response if a dog goes of the deep end in a reaction? And jager popped me in te face with a hard sleeve lol. Rough night


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## FG167

Liesje said:


> I'm sure if I would have pushed it, I would have made something that started out as an issue of maturity into a dog that would always react towards other dogs and never be safe. It was not a choice between a prong collar or a choke collar, but a choice between using the "flooding" method or giving the dog some time and space to grow up.


How do you know when it's a maturity thing and when it's something that they're not going to "get" with maturity and practice???


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## onyx'girl

For a (immature)dog that is reactive, I would still continue to do things, but do them when the dog is in their comfort zone. 
Reading their body language and retreating before the dog gets into the reactive behavior. 

A dog with good nerves will overcome it with proper handling. A dog who is on the sharp/suspicious side will just have to be managed. 
When the dog sees that the handler is the one who is in control, they can give up and relax-not have to feel "on" all the time. That comes with maturity.


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## gagsd

onyx'girl said:


> A dog with good nerves will overcome it with proper handling. A dog who is on the sharp/suspicious side will just have to be managed.
> When the dog sees that the handler is the one who is in control, they can give up and relax-not have to feel "on" all the time. That comes with maturity.


And a dog with a sharp/suspicious/low-threshold handler will be handler-capped for eternity.


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## FG167

onyx'girl said:


> A dog with good nerves will overcome it with proper handling. A dog who is on the sharp/suspicious side will just have to be managed.
> When the dog sees that the handler is the one who is in control, they can give up and relax-not have to feel "on" all the time. That comes with maturity.


But at what point do you know which is which? Or am I just too inexperienced yet?? lol


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