# Dog park incident, are we being overprotective?



## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

Buck is 8 months old now, he has been well socialized from the get-go, having come from a breeder where he had interaction with a number of other GSDs all the time, and gets along great with other dogs at the dog park, and plays nice and has fun. The other day there was a teacup sized dog there and he was so gentle with it! 

But there are two dogs/dog owners there that concern my husband and me, and we've encountered them twice. The first time it was just those two dogs and Buck. They ganged up on him, literally chasing him so he looked like he was running for his life. There was no interactive play, it was just them chasing him. They were both biting his legs and "taking him down", rolling him. They are both full grown dogs, one a GSD the other a pit bull mix. We decided this was not a healthy situation so we left. 

They were there again this evening, but there were a number of other dogs so we thought it might be different. But the same thing happened immediately. We stepped in and started putting his leash on him to leave, and one of the dogs wouldn't stop. My husband asked the owner to please get his dog off our dog. He wouldn't, and words were exchanged between the two men. I had a few things to say myself as we left. The other people there appeared to think we were being fussy, that what was happening was normal play.

I did come home and look up the leg-biting thing, and apparently it does happen in play. But two dogs ganging up? I'm guessing they are bullies and can see an easy mark (a puppy, albeit a rather big one.)

Please tell me the truth if we were being overly-sensitive, and if this was just normal.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'll tell you that early on, I experienced similar "play", when in fact, my dog was becoming prey. The "chase" usually invites other dogs to chase, and in the blink of an eye, your dog will get bit.
This happened to me, and it raised my awareness. I can't bring my dog to dog parks, because she's an easy target. She's always "prey".

I would suggest you avoid those dogs. IMO, it sounds like trouble.
As far as the owner... well it sounds typical of what you'll encounter in a dog park. That would all change the day your dog has enough, and sends a message to their dogs. They'll be the first to ban your mean GSD.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Nope I wouldn't allow it. People may not like me but I step in immediately if another dog starts showing any signs of ganging up. I also would pull their dog off myself or use my body or foot to block them or tap them. I've also raised my voice and said no! Back off! To other people's dogs. It's my job to protect my dog and if the other owner is going to be an idiot ill do what I need to do to get their dog away from mine. 


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with your thinking. Imo, these 2 adults dogs are bullies and shouldn't even be in the dog park. I would have done the same as you and your husband - taken my dog out of there after I had a few choice words with the owner of the those 2 dogs.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

You were right to leave. It can be dangerous for pack members to be in a setting like that for the reason you've already seen. They are already an alliance and gang up on others. 

I rarely go to the park but if I do, I leave at the first sign of other dogs being bullies or the dog I'm with not enjoying the play and I have no problem announcing exactly why we are leaving.

Sadly, many dog park goers are not well versed in canine language and appropriate play and it creates a dangerous situation.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

Thank you so much Anthony, Capone, and Mary Beth! I feel so much better knowing that we weren't being idiots or overly sensitive.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Red flags went off for both of you and you followed your gut. It's better to be overprotective (don't think you were) then fail to protect your dog and have him lose trust in you.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

gsdraven, we did the same -- announced why we were leaving -- and everyone looked at us like we were a sad case. Well, now I know we are not. I'm grateful for this forum! Thanks.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks fuzzybunny. Buck losing trust in us hadn't even occurred to me! 

I'm feeling so much better now.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I also agree with your decision to protect your pup. I sparingly use our local dog park. I may go in if one dog is there. Usually I time it so we're alone, and we just use the extra space so she can get some longer runs in than in our back yard. I do walk her on the outside if others are inside to work on her obedience.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Whether it was play for the other dogs or not is irrelevant. If your dog is not enjoying himself than it's a negative experience. Too many negative experiences can become fear and then you'll have issues with all dogs.

This is why so many people recommend not bringing their dogs to dog parks. You can't control the dogs that come in and that just sets your dog up for failure. Maybe not immediately, but sooner or later something bad most likely is going to happen.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

About setting up my dog for failure, I was wondering about how he felt about the situation... was he feeling bad or sad that he got bullied? Do dogs feel bad about such things, or do they just move on? 

I'm fast becoming a believer in "sparingly" using the dog park, too -- maybe never using the dog park. We have such a small yard, we're going to have to do something about that. Like sell our house and get one with a big yard! (ah, actually, only half kidding...) Or rent a lot and fence it in... Doggie daycares won't let him participate because he is unaltered.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I agree with leaving. Also be careful to not coddle/reassure your dog when its scared like that. It can make the dog think its supposed to act that way. Just hook up leash and leave.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I think you're humanizing the dog by thinking he gets sad about things like getting bullied. Humans do that. Dogs are dogs. They live in the moment and don't sit there and reflect on their past experiences.

When I say you're setting him up for failure is you're basically setting him up in a situation where a lot of bad things can happen. Fights break out. Dogs get ganged up on. Stupid owners who really have no clue about reading their dogs and knowing if they've got the right temperament for a dog park bring their dogs. Basically a lot of bad things can happen that can easily be avoided. Just search around for past threads on dog parks and you'll see what I mean. More bad comes from dog parks than good.

Do you have any friends or family with stable dogs? If you really feel the need to have your dog play with other dogs than set up play sessions with them. Dogs you don't have to worry about stuff like this happening. You want to keep everything positive at that age. 

If you're worried about the dog getting exercise, there are other ways of getting a dogs energy out other than dog parks.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Absolutely not. There is no such thing as overprotective. I, like Capone, think nothing of correcting another dog messing with Fiona. If the owner doesn't like it, they can control their dog. I wish there was a dog park where only good dogs go.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I don't do dog parks but my dogs do play in groups of dogs that I know. 

If that were to happen, I would step in as well.

Follow your gut.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dog parks are not worth it -- problems down the road --


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You did the right thing, it is up to you to protect your dog and you did a fine job. Dogs and owners like that ruin it for dogs/owners that just want to enjoy their day out.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

they may have been playing but if the play was to rough
for your dog you are right for stepping in. dogs are bullies
and they know they can take advantage of a young dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> dog parks are not worth it -- problems down the road --


 
*Ain't that the truth!*

Our dog is a very dominant dog (male GSD) even as a puppy so we almost never went to a dog park (2 times in his life). 

They were not worth the hassle and potential. 

He was very friendly and tolerant and played nicely with most dogs but there were a few that he just didn't get along.

Plus, when young he wasn't reliable on a recall and i didn't think it a good idea to have him offlead and not have good control of him.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

if you really feel you need to go you can just show up look on the outside see what dogs are in there go in if there the dogs you dont like are not there 


if they show up leave quick just dont care what people say


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I took Havs over to a friend's house to play with her pack of hounds. Havs had met most of the dogs individually and on beach trips. Well they all ganged up on him and rolled him. He got out of the scrum and ran behind us. We put him in the truck and left. Our friend still thinks that we were overprotective but Havs was not having fun.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

It sounds to me like the other other dog owners were being irresponsible. My husky is a dominating dog. He does the shoulder hug thing and bullys dogs or humps them. I never allowed it; always corrected him. I don't go any more because I don't think my corrections or scolding did much. I'm on your side on this one...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Zeeva said:


> It sounds to me like the other other dog owners were being irresponsible. My husky is a dominating dog. He does the shoulder hug thing and bullys dogs or humps them. I never allowed it; always corrected him. I don't go any more because I don't think my corrections or scolding did much. I'm on your side on this one...


It sounds like they're irresponsible because we're getting the story from the one side. On the other side the story might go, "My dog's were having fun playing with this other GSD and then their owners came over and yelled at us because our dogs were playing a little rough."

OP, you did the right thing by getting your dog out of there, but in my opinion you might've crossed the line by exchanging words. Remember, dog parks are public, and each one of us has a different idea of what "acceptable play" is and because you think those dogs are too rough, doesn't mean everyone else does. My dog will play rough, I will stop him when I think its too much, I will also leave the park myself if any other dog is getting too rough with my dog. I won't say anything though because I know my dog plays too rough for other people's tastes.

In my opinion...unless a real fight is breaking out, its hard to tell when dogs truly are "ganging up" and trying to hurt another dog. From my experience its also useless to yell at people or have words with them because that will just make everyone mad. At the same time you risk the chance that you're actually in the wrong and then very quickly get treated very poorly at the dog park by the regular visitors that start to know each other. Dog parks get very political, clicky, and its not very fun when no one really wants you there lol.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> It sounds like they're irresponsible because we're getting the story from the one side. On the other side the story might go, "My dog's were having fun playing with this other GSD and then their owners came over and yelled at us because our dogs were playing a little rough."
> 
> OP, you did the right thing by getting your dog out of there, but in my opinion you might've crossed the line by exchanging words. Remember, dog parks are public, and each one of us has a different idea of what "acceptable play" is and because you think those dogs are too rough, doesn't mean everyone else does. My dog will play rough, I will stop him when I think its too much, I will also leave the park myself if any other dog is getting too rough with my dog. I won't say anything though because I know my dog plays too rough for other people's tastes.
> 
> In my opinion...unless a real fight is breaking out, its hard to tell when dogs truly are "ganging up" and trying to hurt another dog. From my experience its also useless to yell at people or have words with them because that will just make everyone mad. At the same time you risk the chance that you're actually in the wrong and then very quickly get treated very poorly at the dog park by the regular visitors that start to know each other. Dog parks get very political, clicky, and its not very fun when no one really wants you there lol.


I agree with this.

Kira was never good for dog parks. The couple times I attempted, she became prey. I could very easily have blamed the other owners for not restraining their dogs, but instead chose to remove her before any further damage.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

blehmannwa said:


> I took Havs over to a friend's house to play with her pack of hounds. Havs had met most of the dogs individually and on beach trips. Well they all ganged up on him and rolled him. He got out of the scrum and ran behind us. We put him in the truck and left. Our friend still thinks that we were overprotective but Havs was not having fun.


 
Don't forget about pack behavior! 

Any new dog coming into an established group of other dogs is likely yo be "picked on" - usually much better to introduce the new guy individually and then maybe 2 of the new ones and him.. Likely to go a lot smoother that way.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I just don't understand dog parks.
I guess they go with the new way of thinking that dogs are not animals, but humans in fur coats. 
People think their puppies need to play with others, just as human children do. 

What they don't think about is that the dogs in parks are of all ages.

So it is as if you are bringing your toddler to "play" with older kids, and young and old adults, and the occasional delinquent teenagers.

I wouldn't bring my small child to interact with teens who are cussing, smoking, and bullying others. 
I wouldn't bring my puppy to a dog park, either.


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## rolandk (Mar 22, 2008)

I obviously wasn't with the OP that day and will not pass judgement, but I disagree with the general disdain towards dog parks in this thread. We live 2 blocks from a big city-owned field that is used mostly as an off leash dog park and I have taken my dogs there thousands of times over the years. 

I believe that letting your dog run off leash around other dogs and people when they are young is absolutely priceless in socializing them into a happy, normal, and well-balanced dog. They need to burn up energy, learn how to rough house and yes, defend themselves on occasion. You have to keep a close eye so things don't get out hand but sometimes a challenging situation can be a good learning experience in my book. This is how we grow. And frankly we are talking about German Shepherds here, which are a large and highly intelligent breed that should have no troubles handling themselves in the general public. I'm not claiming to be an expert or telling other people how to raise their dogs, just sharing my philosphy.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

When i started taking mine to parks i checked out all the parks in my area we have five or so but she eventually thought she was the queen of any park she went in that was small with a fenced in area. When i saw she would embrace any kind of challenge I never took her back. SHe was not like that at first she changed over time as she matured mentally and began thinking every dog was her inferior as she came close to 3. 


remember now your dog is getting picked on the future he may pick on another dog and it will be you that has to save the other dog from him and owners will be pissed at you. Hes only 8 months old.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

WolfieWolf said:


> Please tell me the truth if we were being overly-sensitive, and if this was just normal.


IMO, you were being prudent and I would have done the exact same thing. And at the same time, this *was* just normal - 'normal' being that you never know what will happen when you're at the dog park. But you have a good grasp on the situation: you know when your dog isn't enjoying himself, and you'll leave if it looks like it might turn nasty.

I've felt that people are judging me sometimes, believing that I'm going overboard in my proactive protectiveness of my puppy. I usually don't care what other people think, but on the off-chance that it matters to me, I say that I have to be very careful with my puppy, because I don't want him to turn into one of "those" GSDs, since everyone (myself included) has had some bad experience. They always nod in agreement with that, lol.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

I love this thread. Mainly because every dog park, and every dog is different. My gsd is not calm at the park, but I bring her with a ball. She ignores everyone else when I throw the ball, almost like she has an excuse to pay attention to me. Other dogs have charged at her, and a couple of results seem consistant. Either she freaks out a bit and I let her go through it very keen on what the other dog is doing (and I try to keep calm), or I put myself (calmly) between her and the charging dog. Amazing...if Mika is behind me, the other dogs usually stop and retreat. No need to talk to owners, waste of time.

I don't bring her often, but some advice given to me is to walk your dog before going to the park. That should be a treat, not the main source of exercise.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

One thing to keep in mind (depends a lot on your park) is that other dogs might try to chase your ball when you throw it. And what would your dog do if that happens?


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## GSD246 (Jan 17, 2012)

One of my experiences on training happened at a dog park. A strangers older and much larger dog was going to show my puppy how to play. My gsd wasn't too smart on judging size and would jump on any dog that was near us. She did it to this dog and he would give her a hard shove off with a warning. Then he'd try to play with her with the toys the stranger brought. My dog would ignore the toys and jump on him again with the same results. Finally my dog decided to play. It helped me a lot because it allowed me to understand the difference body expression she makes to communicate. This dog park was not fenced in.

I've had opposite experiences when the dog park was fenced in. I worked tirelessly to get my GSD to not attack and roll other dogs. My first time going to the closed in dog parks it was nice to watch the other dogs roll each other. Call me mr hypocrite but I had a chance of heart later on when I realize how big my dog was getting. She left one of her friends limping after a play date from being too rough. After that I didn't want this happening anymore so I did my hardest to positively work this out of her and I was successful. My next closed in dog park meanings went like the OP's. Other dogs would gang up on my dog and try to roll her. All she would do is stare at me as if asking for help or get an idea for what she was suppose to do while struggling to keep her balance so they couldn't roll her on the ground. The owners weren't paying any attention and I finally decided to take my dog out of these parks for good as it happened the next two times. It isn't what I wanted. I would be way more comfortable with it if the owners were at least paying attention. Instead, I now focus on open dog parks because the lack of a fence seems to keep the bad handlers away in fear they might lose their dogs.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

Fortunately, my girl is faster than most of the ball loving dogs. I do keep her on a 20' lead (dropped) just in case I need to grab her, but mainly because I do not have the total recall down yet. I only grab it if necessary. One time another dog did get her ball, but she absolutely let it go. I had to go get the ball from the other dog. Mika has no interest in confronting another dog at this point.

I use a "chuck it" and have two balls at all times. Works well for us.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I didn't read through the whole thread...

But you weren't being overprotective. I work at a large private dog park where the staff monitors the behavior of our members and we do not tolerate that sort of behavior, period.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

You are not being overprotective. You are ensuring your dog's safety.

I have mixed feelings about dog parks, but at the end of the day I no longer visit them. 

And that's because I have three dogs. If I still had only one dog, I might still go...It just seems like much of the trouble I've seen is when people bring in multiple dogs, such as the pair you mentioned.

Also, Jack seems to be everydog's target (from other Shepherds to the seemingly hundreds of tiny little Cujos that run free all around our new neighborhood). The one time I didn't separate Jack from being stalked and he finally snapped, it was a matter of seconds before both girls "had his back" so to speak. I was all alone, and lucky to pull the offending bully out from underneath the three of them alive. None of us walked away unscathed, and it was scary as ****.

Save yourself the stress and the potential trouble. If you don't feel comfortable, listen to your gut. I wished I had. In hindsight, I should have been paying way more attention to those warning signs before the attack occurred, and kept the bully separated from my pack. I mean, I've cut short a couple of dog-on-dog fights before, so I wasn't afraid. But when it's two or three on one, well, you just don't ever want to see that, especially if it's your pup on the receiving end.

Safety first. No reason to care one whit what the other dog owners at the park may or may not think! I'd rather be called crazy than mourning a dead dog.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

codmaster said:


> One thing to keep in mind (depends a lot on your park) is that other dogs might try to chase your ball when you throw it. And what would your dog do if that happens?



a lot of dogs will snarl and get pissed when a dog touches their ball in chase which will cause a fight another dog park hazard.


Jack were you and 3 shepherds attacked and then they all ganged up and tore up the attacker a bully dog?


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

I would complain to the park management. If they aren't bullying your dog, they are doing it to someone else's dog. You might not get instant results but it will get their name on the Park's list of dogs/owners to watch. Secondly, I would go to the park when those dogs were not there. The reason I would not give up on the dog park is because it is beneficial for dogs to interact off leash and unrestrained. I always weigh the good experiences/bad experiences and try to avoid one while making use of the other. Your dog is too young to be double tagged by a couple bullies. In another year, you may find your dog is doing the bullying. Then it is time to leave.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I go to my dog park often, but I only go early, so there is little to no people there, but this day we were there for a long time, so it started getting busy and everything was fine until this one person came in. When new people come in. I typically put Chief on a leash that way the dog coming in doesn't get bombarded by my dog while trying to get into the gate. It has happened to Chief before. Then as soon as they are in I let them meet then take Chief back off leash. We haven't had any problems, but then this lady comes in with two very large dogs. I don't know that breed, but they were bigger than Chief. They were brothers. One of them came over to Chief as I was removing his leash and start growling immedietly then Chief growled then the other brother came right over. I made a whistle sound to get Chief to come my way, because I didn't want to put pressure on his leash.

I though we would walk around a bit then there then let them meet again, so I could let him off the leash as he was having fun with the other dog there before they came. The one kept coming and growling then the brother would come. The owner confronted me telling me I needed to let my dog off the leash and said her dog was trying to be dominate on my dog because I had him on a leash. I told her I wasn't going to let him off leash so her two could gang up on my boy when all he wanted to do was play with a spaniel, so we left.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

pets4life said:


> a lot of dogs will snarl and get pissed when a dog touches their ball in chase which will cause a fight another dog park hazard.


Dogs that do this should not be at a dog park.


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## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

rolandk said:


> I believe that letting your dog run off leash around other dogs and people when they are young is absolutely priceless in socializing them into a happy, normal, and well-balanced dog.



BS. This sounds EXACTLY like the same kind of nonsense that people used to try to tell me that my kids needed to be in public school so they could learn how to deal with bullies, drug dealers, and crack heads.

We socialized our kids in a controlled environment. 
We'll do no less for our dogs.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

pets4life said:


> Jack were you and 3 shepherds attacked and then they all ganged up and tore up the attacker a bully dog?


No. Jack was being stalked by a new housemate's Aussie. The Aussie was just up his behind constantly, so to speak, and with the occasional snarl/growl thrown in. Housemate and I had been very observant about correcting the behavior, and separating the Aussie every time he started stalking. We hadn't had an occurrence in a couple of weeks. And Jack was just his aloof self through it all. Turns out, it was a false sense of security.

Housemate was out for the evening. Aussie snarled one more time, and Jack finally engaged. And within seconds my female weimaraner and senior female GSD jumped in the frey and the three of them took the Aussie down. And yes, they tore him up pretty good. We were all bleeding but he was definitely the worst off by far. I felt horrible.

As I said, it was my fault for not being more observant. We knew there was a bully in the mix, and I shouldn't have relied on Jack's prior aloof status, or the fact that we hadn't seen the offending behavior recently. I should have researched the issue and made sure we had handled it thoroughly. 

Anyhow, my point in sharing was to pay attention to the signs. *If you feel your dog is being bullied, trust yourself and protect your dog*. Can't be too vigilant.

And my other point was how *when multiple dogs are present, things can escalate dangerously quickly*. Even though we hadn't had _any_ signs of trouble with the Aussie and either of the girls, a pack is a pack. 

If just the boys had started fighting, I could have broken it up a LOT sooner. And honestly, that's the worst case scenario we had imagined. I know, sounds ignorant now. But with the girls reinforcing him, Jack wasn't hearing me at all. I NEVER thought my sweet old girl who limps and hobbles around could be so fast and fierce, and I bet a lot of the owners at dog parks don't either.

I do like the private, supervised dog park idea mentioned above.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

frillint1 said:


> I go to my dog park often, but I only go early, so there is little to no people there, but this day we were there for a long time, so it started getting busy and everything was fine until this one person came in. When new people come in. I typically put Chief on a leash that way the dog coming in doesn't get bombarded by my dog while trying to get into the gate. It has happened to Chief before. Then as soon as they are in I let them meet then take Chief back off leash. We haven't had any problems, but then this lady comes in with two very large dogs. I don't know that breed, but they were bigger than Chief. They were brothers. One of them came over to Chief as I was removing his leash and start growling immedietly then Chief growled then the other brother came right over. I made a whistle sound to get Chief to come my way, because I didn't want to put pressure on his leash.
> 
> I though we would walk around a bit then there then let them meet again, so I could let him off the leash as he was having fun with the other dog there before they came. The one kept coming and growling then the brother would come. The owner confronted me telling me I needed to let my dog off the leash and said her dog was trying to be dominate on my dog because I had him on a leash. I told her I wasn't going to let him off leash so her two could gang up on my boy when all he wanted to do was play with a spaniel, so we left.


NOt a good idea to put a dog on leash while you are in a dog park full of off leash dogs, If you felt uncomfortable with the other dogs you should just leave not leash your dog and walk around. The leash causes issues a lot of times. It will make your dog more defensive. Take the leash off in the small gaited area. IF you feel there is not going to be a good mix take your dog out and leash him outside the park. You can introduce him on the other side of the fence even if you feel but dont bring him in the park with his leash on. You are creating a cornered animal that way.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TxFig said:


> BS. This sounds EXACTLY like the same kind of nonsense that people used to try to tell me that my kids needed to be in public school so they could learn how to deal with bullies, drug dealers, and crack heads.
> 
> *We socialized our kids in a controlled environment. *
> *We'll do no less for our dogs.*





Interesting approach! 

Could you explain how you continue to "control your kids environment" once they get out of school (or go off to a college and have to live on their own in a public environment)? 


I would suggest that controlling a dogs environment would be a LOT easier than for a human pup! But even there, could be that one's dog has to be in a public environment as well some of the time - Dog show for some of us, Vet for most, walking in public, etc. etc.

Don't you agree that dogs (and kids!) HAVE to learn how to behave (survive???) in less than ideal environments where there will be a lot of stress and weird people/animals?

Just curious as we have struggled with other than ideal environments.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Jack that is so scary aussies are smaller dogs also. Im glad it was not seriously injured or killed at least by that many big dogs tearing into it. 


HOw old is jack? how old was the aussie? I assume jack is a pup and the aussie is trying to keep its alpha status over him or trying to bully him? The females saw jack snap and just got furious at their puppy being in a fight and decided to kill the threat (the aussie). 

Im glad you came out okay also.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

pets4life said:


> *NOt a good idea to put a dog on leash while you are in a dog park full of off leash dogs,* If you felt uncomfortable with the other dogs you should just leave not leash your dog and walk around. The leash causes issues a lot of times. It will make your dog more defensive. Take the leash off in the small gaited area. IF you feel there is not going to be a good mix take your dog out and leash him outside the park. You can introduce him on the other side of the fence even if you feel but dont bring him in the park with his leash on. You are creating a cornered animal that way.


 
Very good idea! A leashed dog will often react differently than a free one esp. when confronted with other dogs.

My own dog (5yo male GSD) has proved that to me a lot of times. he will definetly react differently (usually more aggressively) on a leash. I and a couple of trainers and behaviorists do not resally know why but agree that he will. Could be my feelings going down the leash, could be some thing as simply he is unable to do the proper doggy languge signs (ie butt sniffing, tail wagging, etc.).


OTOH, I have kept him on leash when meeting (briefly on a street) other dogs - one really simple reason --> *CONTROL* if something does go wrong!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> a couple of trainers and behaviorists do not resally know


Really? It's because his natural communication is limited and his flight response is taken away. It's why it is not a good idea for a dog to be leashed in an off leash park - it makes them feel defensive and yes, every single one will react with more aggression (fight) because they cannot get away (flight) if confronted. I've also noticed that it gives the off leash dogs a little more confidence as well because they know the other dog is at a disadvantage.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Really? It's because his natural communication is limited and* his flight response is taken away.* It's why it is not a good idea for a dog to be leashed in an off leash park - it makes them feel defensive and yes, every single one will react with more aggression (fight) because they cannot get away (flight) if confronted. I've also noticed that it gives the off leash dogs a little more confidence as well because they know the other dog is at a disadvantage.


 
That is one theory, from a number of people. Esp. the ones I have met who think every reaction/behavior from a dog is due to anxiety and/or fear.

Except that in some cases (like my guy who has never backed up or shown fear of new things in his life even as a young puppy!) it is not fear based. he doesn't appear to have a flight response so can not work with that theory of doggy behavior. Aggression and even bullyinr - yes perhaps.

How do you think a dog reasons that a leashed dog is at a disadvantage?

They might also think that they are at a disadvantage since the owner is also right there - so now the dog might think AHA! 2 on 1 -- Whoops!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

After having a very reactive dog aggressive dog for 7 years I am very excited and happy to have a puppy who could care less about any dog he sees. I plan on keeping it that way. One negative experience with another dog and you could have years of hard work to try and overcome the negative behavior it created. 
I've always hated dog parks....they keep dog trainers in business.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> That is one theory, from a number of people. Esp. the ones I have met who think every reaction/behavior from a dog is due to anxiety and/or fear.


I'm not one of those people that thinks all reactivity is based in anxiety or fear. Some dogs are just jerks just like people.



codmaster said:


> How do you think a dog reasons that a leashed dog is at a disadvantage?


Dogs are masters at assessing situations much faster than we humans are.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JackandMattie said:


> No. Jack was being stalked by a new housemate's Aussie. The Aussie was just up his behind constantly, so to speak, and with the occasional snarl/growl thrown in. Housemate and I had been very observant about correcting the behavior, and separating the Aussie every time he started stalking. We hadn't had an occurrence in a couple of weeks. And Jack was just his aloof self through it all. Turns out, it was a false sense of security.
> 
> Housemate was out for the evening. Aussie snarled one more time, and Jack finally engaged. And within seconds my female weimaraner and senior female GSD jumped in the frey and the three of them took the Aussie down. And yes, they tore him up pretty good. We were all bleeding but he was definitely the worst off by far. I felt horrible.
> 
> ...


What would make you think that your dog would listen to you if he is in a real dog fight even without the other dogs in it? Wouldn't ever expect my dog to listen to a voice command from me or anyone if he is in a real fight. Got to remember the dog is fighting for his life in a fight. If you were engaged with another person and feeling it was a fight to the death, would you be likely to someone saying "Stop"?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> *I'm not one of those people that thinks all reactivity is based in anxiety or fear*. Some dogs are just jerks just like people.
> 
> *Good for you!*
> 
> ...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Saphire said:


> I've always hated dog parks....they keep dog trainers in business.


Why do you say that? I'm curious because I have two dogs that go to the dog park for 20+ hours a week and we do not need training classes for anything related to it...


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

codmaster said:


> What would make you think that your dog would listen to you if he is in a real dog fight even without the other dogs in it? Wouldn't ever expect my dog to listen to a voice command from me or anyone if he is in a real fight. Got to remember the dog is fighting for his life in a fight. If you were engaged with another person and feeling it was a fight to the death, would you be likely to someone saying "Stop"?


I don't think he would, but between my voice and me pulling him off I would have had an advantage. I lost that when the girls jumped in. My voice was especially useless when I couldn't back it up physically. I ended up having to pull the fight onto the threshhold, tear the Aussie out from under the others, and slam the door. 

If it had just been the two boys, Jack would have backed down once I had his attention. He was on top. He wasn't fighting for his life, just his place in rank. I outrank him, and he trusts me. I have no reason to believe he will ever challenge that arrangement.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JackandMattie said:


> I don't think he would, but between my voice and me pulling him off I would have had an advantage. I lost that when the girls jumped in. My voice was especially useless when I couldn't back it up physically. I ended up having to pull the fight onto the threshhold, tear the Aussie out from under the others, and slam the door.
> 
> If it had just been the two boys, *Jack would have backed down once I had his attention. He was on top. He wasn't fighting for his life, just his place in rank*. I outrank him, and he trusts me. I have no reason to believe he will ever challenge that arrangement.


 
Good luck to you - you seem to have a real handle on your dog. And esp. just what was motivating him to fight in the first place.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

codmaster said:


> Good luck to you - you seem to have a real handle on your dog. And esp. just what was motivating him to fight in the first place.


Thank you! I hope so. He was a scrawny, starving, plain jane, and Very Fearful rescue dog when he came to me at 11 months. He's a strong, confident, handsome, trained, and socialized 2 1/2 year old who works for his keep, now, and I am blessed to call Jack my heart dog :wub:


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> Why do you say that? I'm curious because I have two dogs that go to the dog park for 20+ hours a week and we do not need training classes for anything related to it...


It CAN take one bad experience (which will eventually happen if you frequent these parks) that can create a behavior in your dog that will require much work to undo. You can never guarantee that other dog owners have the knowledge or relationship with their dogs that allow them to see dog posturing and behaviour, or really care to watch their dogs closely. Unfortunately when this happens, the average person is at a loss as to fixing the problem...thus the need for a trainer. You can talk to many trainers and they will tell you that dog parks make them money.

I will not risk my puppies future behaviours for playtime at a dog park. I can adequately stimulate him in positive,safe and controlled ways on my own thus building a strong relationship with me instead of other dogs. Dog parks are not a risk I am willing to take.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Saphire said:


> *It CAN take one bad experience* (which will eventually happen if you frequent these parks) that can create a behavior in your dog that will require much work to undo. You can never guarantee that other dog owners have the knowledge or relationship with their dogs that allow them to see dog posturing and behaviour, or really care to watch their dogs closely. Unfortunately when this happens, the average person is at a loss as to fixing the problem...thus the need for a trainer. You can talk to many trainers and they will tell you that dog parks make them money.
> 
> I will not risk my puppies future behaviours for playtime at a dog park. I can adequately stimulate him in positive,safe and controlled ways on my own thus building a strong relationship with me instead of other dogs. Dog parks are not a risk I am willing to take.


 
Only with a dog with weak nerves (lack of confidence!) to begin with. 

I don't do dog parks but it is not because I am afraid that my dog will be scarred for life from a single bad experience. 

(Any more than it would do the same for a normal human being!)


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Got to remember the dog is fighting for his life in a fight.


Huh? Since when? I'm not saying that some dogs won't fight to the death, but saying that every dog involved in a fight is "fighting for his life" is completely untrue. Otherwise, you wouldn't find people (like myself, and others) who *can* call their dogs off. Obviously they're just throwing their weight around, being bullies. 

Or, maybe there's something more to this? If you're thinking, "OH NO! They're KILLING each other!" then maybe you're adding fuel to the fire? Whereas if you yell, "HEY! Knock it OFF!" then they know from your tone that they're in big doo-doo and stop? Interesting to think about.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Huh? *Since when?* I'm not saying that some dogs won't fight to the death, but* saying that every dog involved in a fight is "fighting for his life" is completely untrue (BTW - where did I say every dog and every fight?). Otherwise, you wouldn't find people (like myself, and others) who *can* call their dogs off.* Obviously they're just throwing their weight around, being bullies.
> 
> Or, maybe there's something more to this? If you're thinking, "OH NO! They're KILLING each other!" then maybe you're adding fuel to the fire? *Whereas if you yell, "HEY! Knock it OFF!" then they know from your tone that they're in big doo-doo and stop? Interesting to think about*.[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Codmaster, there's no doubt I've been lucky. And very loud, lol. But you're the one saying "fighting for his life" and really, that's not the case in 99.999999999% (my guesstimate) of altercations. No need to make people reading this thread paranoid about the skirmishes that can happen. Nice bolding and colorful post


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I did call off a dog in the middle of a fight but it was Felony, my old pitbull. I was fostering a bulldog and he suddenly attacked my GSD x. The attack literally came out of nowhere, there was no warning. The bulldog just jumped up and latched onto my girl's throat. She shrieked and Felony came charging from the far corner of the yard like a meat bullet and she jumped onto the bulldog's back and bit into him. My neighbor had been outside with the dogs and she was screaming. The whole situation was utter chaos. My GSD x is crying but the pit and the bulldog are silent as they are just biting. I ran closer to them and ordered Felony off and she dropped the bulldog. I think he was shocked by Fel's attack and I got him to release my old girl. My hands were all bloody but my GSD was unharmed, the blood was from the bulldog's mouth. I think that Fel's initial impact caused the blood. The whole incident was over in seconds.

I returned the bulldog to the shelter right away. He wasn't right in his head. My husband had not liked Felony but after she defended his dog he warmed to her. I only fostered puppies after that incident. I swear that there was no warning. I was impressed with Fel's obedience during a scary, violent moment.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Codmaster, there's no doubt I've been lucky. And very loud, lol. But you're the one saying "fighting for his life" and really, that's not the case in 99.999999999% (my guesstimate) of altercations. No need to make people reading this thread paranoid about the skirmishes that can happen. Nice bolding and colorful post


 
99.99..% - -- not nearly the same as the dog fights that I have seen.

Guess it would depend on what "fights" that you have seen (and of course what you define as a dog fight - I don't count as a fight when a dog simply corrects another dog or a momentary flare between two familar dogs. I count as a fight when the dogs are serious and mean each other harm (as i have tried to explain).

And that would seem to be more than .000000001 % but that would just be my opinion.

And, IMHO, people SHOULD be paranoid about dog fights - they can result in serious injury or death to a dog and often injury to the folks trying to break them up (except of course for the folks like you whose dogs are trained so well that they will stop fighting even in the heat of the moment of the fight).

*But enough about dog fights - everyone can have their own opinion and should have.*


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Only with a dog with weak nerves (lack of confidence!) to begin with.
> 
> I don't do dog parks but it is not because I am afraid that my dog will be scarred for life from a single bad experience.
> 
> (Any more than it would do the same for a normal human being!)


I don't have the knowledge to say whether its only dogs with weak nerves or lacking confidence will develop behaviours after bad experiences. I do believe a full on fight or pack fight can have a negative impact on even those dogs who are sound and full of confidence. That is a personal opinion not fact. I won't ever compare a dog to a human being as they simply do not think as we do. I will say that a child exposed to sexual abuse just once does forever scar and change that child, so in saying that once negative experience for a human being will not forever scar them is very wrong.

I do know that there are many many dog owners on this forum alone whose dogs are lacking confidence, are reactive, aggressive etc. and came here looking for help in dealing with those issues. I also know there are many dog owners who have absolutely no clue if there dog has weak nerves or lacks confidence. It is those owners I don't wish to expose my puppy to in a dog park environment. I don't see anything to be gained for any puppy lacking in confidence and nerve or not, to be socialized in a dog park environment. I do believe there are serious risks in doing so even for the sound, confident dog/puppy. I have a very confident and sound puppy, if he were to be attacked by another dog at a park I am quite confident it would have an impact on his future behaviour with others dogs. Dogs do what is best for dogs.....that negative exposure would surely have an effect on that dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Saphire said:


> I don't have the knowledge to say whether its only dogs with weak nerves or lacking confidence will develop behaviours after bad experiences. *I do believe a full on fight or pack fight can have a negative impact on even those dogs who are sound and full of confidence.* That is a personal opinion not fact. I won't ever compare a dog to a human being as they simply do not think as we do. *I will say that a child exposed to sexual abuse just once does forever scar and change that child, so in saying that once negative experience for a human being will not forever scar them is very wrong.*
> 
> *I am curious as to what, other than your own opinion (and welcome to this), you base this claim on - esp. stating it to be the case for every single child to be a fact!*
> 
> ...


As I tried to explain, a bad experience could have an impact on a dog - but absolutely this would not happen with every dog and/or puppy. Depends on how the owners react and esp. on the dog itself.

For example, i once had an approx. 4-5 mo GSD male who was attecked quite loudly by an adult Old English Sheepdog while were out walking and he got a little blood drawn before we were able to whack that dog a couple of times to get him off my pup.

NO impact on my pup - still wanted to go walking with only a little more alertness when we walked by that same house next time.

He was a very solid self confident puppy from German working lines (dad was top protection scoring dog at the Seiger show!).

Are you saying that your puppy would have been scarred for life from such an experience? How would that "scarring" be manifested by behavior in your pup?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

codmaster said:


> As I tried to explain, a bad experience could have an impact on a dog - but absolutely this would not happen with every dog and/or puppy. Depends on how the owners react and esp. on the dog itself.
> 
> For example, i once had an approx. 4-5 mo GSD male who was attecked quite loudly by an adult Old English Sheepdog while were out walking and he got a little blood drawn before we were able to whack that dog a couple of times to get him off my pup.
> 
> ...


We could banter on for days about this. Do I know every dog would be effected.. Of course not, and since it is not possible to determine which will and won`t, and I have no way of determining how my dog would be effected until after something happens, I am not interested in testing your theory to prove a point.

I work in a field of which I work closely with adults who were abused in several different ways as children. I can say that not one has told me it was a good experience and that it had a wonderful impact on their life. Nor have they told me it made them a better person and are happy they were exposed to it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Saphire said:


> We could banter on for days about this. Do I know every dog would be effected.. Of course not, and since it is not possible to determine which will and won`t, and I have no way of determining how my dog would be effected until after something happens, I am not interested in testing your theory to prove a point.
> 
> I work in a field of which I work closely with adults who were abused in several different ways as children. I can say that not one has told me it was a good experience and that it had a wonderful impact on their life. Nor have they told me it made them a better person and are happy they were exposed to it.


But are you stating that every one said it impacted them badly and changed their behavior?

Comparing people to dogs with bad experiences?


At any rate, would you say that, if a person had a bad experience as a child, but recovered completely and it doesn't impact their current life, then you woulddn't be seeing them. How would anybody even know about it?

That kind of data might kind of throw the statistics off, would it not?

Or are you suggesting that EVERY person abused in any way as a child would be directly impacted by such an experience?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> ...folks like you whose dogs are trained so well...


I'm not trying to portray myself as any kind of great trainer! But I'm very interested in canine behavior, and I can't find any studies or research regarding how we behave as owners, re: how this influences the aggression in our dogs, or their confidence.

For example, is Baron more confident because you gave the OES some grief? I always give the attacking dog some grief, lol. Was I able to call my dog off because he knew, from previous experience, that I don't tolerate fighting? I'm just very curious about all of this. BTW, this dog of mine was never taken to a dog park, because I knew he could be a bully.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> That is one theory, from a number of people. Esp. the ones I have met who think every reaction/behavior from a dog is due to anxiety and/or fear.
> 
> Except that in some cases (like my guy who has never backed up or shown fear of new things in his life even as a young puppy!) it is not fear based. he doesn't appear to have a flight response so can not work with that theory of doggy behavior. Aggression and even bullyinr - yes perhaps.
> 
> ...


Body language. Dogs read each others intentions thru postures and movements. If your dog is leashed and cannot respond in an appropriate manner, he feels at a disadvantage. He is going to be stressed and it is uncertain how he will handle the stress. This frustration was called barrier frustration back in the day and it effects chained, leashed, or fenced dogs that cannot respond to other dogs in the way nature is telling them they must. That's why off leash parks should be off leash.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Shouldn't consideration be given to the fact that there are public dog parks and private dog parks? Whereas, a private dog park would have more structure and a public dog park...well, wouldn't have any.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

My GSD was only 4 months old when we first took him to a dog park. That's the minimum age, by the way.

Most dogs were very nice, indeed. But one was a ruffian and my puppy turned tail and ran which triggered the predatory instincts of the other dog. Puppy was bitten.

Got puppy into training and trainer was very concerned about dog parks for such a young puppy and said:

1) You must protect your puppy or the puppy will lose respect for you as the pack leader. According to him, no member of a pack, not even the lowest in status, would allow a member of another pack to attack one of the precious puppies. They would immediately jump in and attack the aggressive dog.

2) Even if the puppy doesn't lose respect for you as the pack leader the puppy will come to believe that he can be disciplined by other dogs with the effect that the puppy will not be the beta. Rather, he will allow other dogs to intercede between you and the puppy as his beta, a bad situation.

3) Dogs that are attacked even as few times as a couple will very likely develop fear of other dogs and that fear will manifest itself later in life as aggression against other dogs.

4) That aggression is almost impossible to reverse.

So, the trainer told me to go to the local sporting goods store and buy Mace if that happened again. He also told me to keep the dog on the leash at all times and to avoid dog parks.

A few weeks later has the puppy (on leash) and was near a schoolyard when a young man about 20 and his mother opened the sliding door of their van and allowed a labrador to spring out. The lab immediately spotted my puppy and charged him.

At first, I merely interposed myself between the two, regrettably, with no effect. Then as the lab was nipping my puppy I slapped him. Owner enraged. 

Labrador came around for a second pass at the puppy, this time snarling, and I kicked him. Owner threatens to kick my a** if I kicked his dog again.

I told him, "No Problem. I won't kick him. I'll Mace him. And, I'll Mace you too if you assault me as you've threatened."

He collected his dog (still no leash) and I beat a hasty retreat with my puppy to put some distance between us. All the while he as taunting me and threatening me.

20 yards from the scene I used my cell to phone the Deputy. Deputy was on scene in about 10 minutes and issued a citation to him for a terrorist threat. He'll go to court soon.

He was lucky he stopped at just threats. Not only do I carry Mace, on the instructions of the trainer, but also, I carry a concealed handgun. No one is going to assault me...Period.

Anyway, dog parks are bad and especially bad for puppies. But you need not be in a dog park to have to deal with unruly and dangerous dogs and their irresponsible owners.

Longfisher


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks Longfisher, for joining this board and sharing your experiences. Welcome!

What your trainer told you is very intriguing. It makes sense to me - that's why I always go on the attack when my dog is a target. I'd love to know who your trainer is, to learn more about it. Please share that info with me, in a private message if you'd rather. Has your puppy grown up to have confidence around other dogs, since you were able to protect him from that Lab?

And you make a very valid point about where you'll run into these aggressive dogs. I've seen some dogs in the dog park who I'd never bring there myself, but that's not where I've had my bad experiences.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

Longfisher said:


> My GSD was only 4 months old when we first took him to a dog park. That's the minimum age, by the way.
> 
> Most dogs were very nice, indeed. But one was a ruffian and my puppy turned tail and ran which triggered the predatory instincts of the other dog. Puppy was bitten.
> 
> ...


I was going to write a long rant about how irresponsible it was of you to take a pupy that young to a dog park and that common sense should convince you otherwise. But I'm glad you met this kind of trainer, he sounds reasonable. I am also extremely pleased to see that you protected your puppy.I am sure that you gained a massive about of respect in the eyes of your dog.

You can see how ludicrously vulnerable a person walking his dog can be in todays society. The other day I had my dog out on a leash in a park walkway, there was some man jogging with his poodle, or should I say practicing for iditarod by the way that dog was pulling. So it was at the end of the leash, snarling, and for some reason he decides that this means that his dog wants to socialise with mine, so he allows himself to be dragged over to within half a metre of my dog, who's giving this deep defensive display at the same time. So I pulled my dog between my legs and looked at him sternly and yelled "do you mind!?" whilst given him a pretty mean stare. He apologised and I actually felt kind of bad as he sulked off in tow. But that's the thing, there are SO MANY dog owners who just don't have a clue, so don't feel bad, or embarassed or reserved about telling people off or, if it comes to it, kicking a dog in the face if you have too.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Folks might want to reconsider trying to kick a dog in the face - unless you are a Tak Wan Do expert you might just wind up feeding a large aggressive dog a nice shin bone for lunch!

Take a look some time at how fast a dog is when they are seriously fighting - NOT quite the same as when the dog is playing with you.

I can see a huge difference when I am playing with my male GSD and he lets me grab him in the neck - NO WAY can I do that if he didn't want me to! He would have my hand in his mouth (and chomped to pieces) before I knew it!

So just be careful! Your dog (unless a puppy) is MUCH more capable of dealing with a dog attack than the vast majority of owners are. Once your dog engages the other dog - THEN you move in and pound/kick the h%$% out of the other dog. BTW, better with a weapon - i.e. stick, club, rock, etc.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

A lot of conversation on this thread. One thing sometimes lacking in the comments (but not totally!!!) is the dog owners responsibility. If you are stressed, guess what, your dog is going to pick up on this. I am no expert, but when I calm down, my gsd calms down....most of the time. She is not aggressive but very reactive.

Even though I get so peeved at the dog park because of irresponsible handlers, it is my responsibility to keep my girl polite. Fortunately, I have not had a fight situation (thank goodness). I do keep her on a light leash (loose) when throwing the ball. I have had no adverse affects having her on a dropped leash because I assess the situation when a dog approaches. If all is good, I don't come near, and let her sniff, etc. It is a 15 foot lead, so if things didn't go well (so far so good), I could take care of things quickly. 

It is so different with every dog park. The one in my area has no fencing, but is 17 acres. Most of the dog owners are great, and have helped with socializing my girl when she was a pup.

Don't you think it may be more us, not the dogs in MOST cases? Just a thought...


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## Sasha86 (Sep 8, 2012)

Dogs get bullied and picked on, especially when they are younger. I have no problem yelling at the owner to get his dog or grabbing my dog and completely hover over her to protect her. B4 I go to a dog park I park by or drive by and see what dogs I don't like or which dog seems to be over zealous. I would never put my baby in harms way and rather take her to another park where we can play ball. I also arrange play dates with her friends, so we don't run into any problemS


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

codmaster said:


> Folks might want to reconsider trying to kick a dog in the face - unless you are a Tak Wan Do expert you might just wind up feeding a large aggressive dog a nice shin bone for lunch!
> 
> Take a look some time at how fast a dog is when they are seriously fighting - NOT quite the same as when the dog is playing with you.
> 
> ...


Not familar with Tak Wan Do, I am familar with the martial art of Taekwondo though, which is a bit of a laugh anyway. I'd probably use "Muay Thai" if I was trying to generate that kind of a comparison. You obviously don't have a clue and have definately never been kicked in the head, otherwise you might have a better appreciation of the incredible power than one can generate through, what is, probably the hardest bone that a human can strike with - so you might want to try it sometime, just a suggestion.

Perhaps you were confused, as I never suggested actually offering your leg to a dog as food, with nicoise salad and a nice glass of Chardonnay, that idea seems quite bizarre. So folks might want to reconsider actually feeding their leg to an aggressive, shin-bone eating dog, giving it a nice real strong kick in the face tends to work a lot better. Or ribs, or anywhere, you can also use sticks and other improvised weapons if you are ok with carrying them everywhere.

I'd urge people not to confuse an attacking dog with a trained police dog etc., with real, fully developed fight drive. The vast majority of aggressive dogs that approach you can be scared off with a stern shouting. All of these dogs are normally reactive, sharp dogs with increibly weak nerves. Now the exceptions are dogs that will actually attack you, physically. I've been attacked and I have actually kicked an attacking dog in the face, causing the dog to back down. All you really need to do is inflict some degree of pain and they will back down.

If you are still not convinced, check out some of the numerous clips on youtube showing dogs that, at first seem relentlessly ferocious, but once they got hurt, they resorted to avoidance.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Not familar with Tak Wan Do
> *(Thanks much for the spell check - I didn't have time or inclination to look it up so good that you did have the time to check the spelling -really helped everyone to understand what i was saying - so thanks for the clerical help!)*
> , I am familar with the martial art of Taekwondo though, which is a bit of a laugh anyway. I'd probably use "Muay Thai" if I was trying to generate that kind of a comparison. You obviously don't have a clue and have definately never been kicked in the head, otherwise you might have a better appreciation of the incredible power than one can generate through, what is, probably the hardest bone that a human can strike with *(I can appreciate that YOUR head is your hardest bone - densest as well no doubt!)* - so you might want to try it sometime, just a suggestion. *Speaking of never doing something - ever have a large dog get his jaws around one ofyour bones (leg or arm)? Ought to try it someday! Might then squeak out a different tune!)*
> 
> ...


 
BTW, you sound a lot like a bozo in my local club who once said that all he had to do to scare off an attacking dog when one came after his dog was to jump out in front of his dog, yell loudly and wave his arms in the air and just "Look Big". That sounded a lot like your approach to me (except for your expert martial arts background of course). So I will mention to you what I told this really expert sounding person - good luck that you don't run into the wrong dog (probably will work with most dogs BUT with the wrong dog - one who isn't a chicken - what are you going to do with the dog who keeps coming w/o slowing down)? Course you can just whip a lightening-like front kick or maybe even a flying back kick to the dogs face and POOF - the attack is over!

Thanks for an interesting post! Heh! Heh!


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

codmaster said:


> BTW, you sound a lot like a bozo in my local club who once said that all he had to do to scare off an attacking dog when one came after his dog was to jump out in front of his dog, yell loudly and wave his arms in the air and just "Look Big". That sounded a lot like your approach to me (except for your expert martial arts background of course). So I will mention to you what I told this really expert sounding person - good luck that you don't run into the wrong dog (probably will work with most dogs BUT with the wrong dog - one who isn't a chicken - what are you going to do with the dog who keeps coming w/o slowing down)? Course you can just whip a lightening-like front kick or maybe even a flying back kick to the dogs face and POOF - the attack is over!
> 
> Thanks for an interesting post! Heh! Heh!


I sound like a martial arts expert because I can spell Taekwondo? and know a little bit about thai kick boxing? Man, they must have low standards in your neck of the woods.:crazy: So you're a black belt in Judo and you don't know how to spell Taekwondo? Also, so very humble of you to gloat about your black belt, what is this? the 70's? haha theres got to be a bumper sticker for that. They obviously didn't have an ettiquette section in your training class. From what I understand being a black belt in Korean Judo doesn't really make you a martial arts expert either, it MIGHT make you an expert in Korean Judo, which is a fairly nichey and limited martial art if I do recall.

I don't class knowing how to defend yourself or your dog in the event of a dog attack as "dog training", how does that have anything to do with "dog training"?? Unless I am training the dog not to come near me again by kicking it 

I can't imagine headbutting a dog, so I figured using your shin would be the hardest thing to strike with. Don't you agree master cod? Or master of Call of Duty, or whatever that is supposed to be. I thought you were a Judo master? Wel I suppose you can be both  Not sure how you navigate the extremes of murderous video games and peaceful martial art, but ok.

I have had a large dog have it's mouth around my leg, as I mentioned before, that was before I kicked it, not in the process of kicking it. In the process of kicking it, it's mouth was closed and I imagine it was blinking as it absorbed the impact. I am merely trying to speak from experience, what are you speaking from exactly?

I am no dog expert, I do not profess to be, nor am I a martial art expert, like you understatedly alluded to in your post, I am merely saying that an aggressive response is a good one to have against a dog. 

What are the chances of you coming up against a "ring tested Pittie?", I mean, I don't know about you but there aren't a whole lot of "ring tested Pittie's" roaming around where I live and , even then, you're only option would be to fight it off or die, so what you're saying is practically irrelevant. It'd be like someone giving advice that you should punch a shark in the gills if you're ever attacked and responding to that by saying "that shark's just gonna keep on coming, what you gonna do then? huh?", like, how does stating the obvious in an extreme situation help? :crazy: Furthermore, I'm not really familar with "ring tested Pittie's", you seem to be, not sure how you're affiliated with that kind of blood sport, don't want to make assumptions, but I have read that they are trained to fight dogs, not people, (two very different things, hence why you can have one of these dogs that are extremely dog agressive but fine with humans, in fact, wouldn't a "ring" dog have to be good with people, so as not to attack it's morally decrepit handler and his macho friends????) . Furthermore I have also read that these dogs are quite prized, so it doesn't seem logical that they would just be roaming the streets - much like you wouldn't be likely to find a schutzhund titled or police patrol dog roaming the streets looking for shin bones to knaw at.

You're advice is to step aside and let your dog get attacked first? Making such a generalisation about dogs being more capable at handling an attack than a person is a bit ludicrous don't you think? What if it's a large dog and you have a small dog?:shocked: What if your dog isn't used to fighting?:shocked: Judging by the fact that, if most people were to intervene, the aggression could be mitigated right then and there, situation defused, whereas with a dog it'd most likely result in the two being locked up, I'd have to say that intervening first is the best option for your dogs safety - based on the independent results from those two outcomes.

Am I saying that I wouldn't go into avoidance? Me personally? No.... someone else, I wouldn't know for sure. In dogs at least, defensive drive is known as the "inexhaustible" drive, because the dog is seriously threatened and fears for it's life, it will not stop fighting, this is an automatic response to a large extent. In humans, I imagine it is much the same thing. A person who fears for their life is going to keep on going, studies have even shown that you are slightly more powerful in times like those. So if you have not shown avoidance initially, then no, I don't think you would show it later on. The attacking dog isn't interested in confronting you to the point of risking it's life and limb, it either wants to dominate, or kill, you and/or your dog. If you threaten the dog to the point where it's own risk of injury, outweighs its own desire to kill/dominate, then it will back down, simple as that. That's why you don't see lone wolves single handedly fighting off grizzly bears to defend it's meal, it figures I can stay here and die/ get mortally wounded or I can miss a meal and keep my life. It's pretty basic psychology there. A lot of these responses work autonomously, so the animal in question can't even control them.

 All I am saying is that kicking a dog is a pretty good option, most people do not carry sticks, rocks, harpoons etc. around with them. So knowing how to utilise your body is important. AND that you should get in between your dog and the incoming dog, as it sees you as its pack leader and protector  and if you don't fufil that role then you damage your relationship with your dog. After all, we do not all have the luxury knowing how to face the dog off like a true martial arts warrior - turning square to the dog, dramatically squatting down in battle stance, staring into the dogs eyes with one eyebrow raised and with steel in your voice saying "I must warn you my canine friend, I am a black belt in judo" and then watching as the previously rabid dog stops in it's tracks, turns around and head for the hills  We're not all that gifted.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> What are the chances of you coming up against a "ring tested Pittie? Furthermore I have also read that these dogs are quite prized, so it doesn't seem logical that they would just be roaming the streets - much like you wouldn't be likely to find a schutzhund titled or police patrol dog roaming the streets looking for shin bones to knaw at.


I am not defending anyone but on the West Side of Chicago, these dogs running the streets are a huge problem. People are terrified that their kids will get attacked. Most of the time these dogs are injured, so they are in pain and when a dog is in pain, it can turn on a human whether they like them or not. I have also personally had the pleasure of running into two german shepherds that were trained attack dogs...they terrorized kids going to school for about a 1/2 hour before animal control came. Some of these dogs are fed gun powder to make them crazy and that is sad. If I was in this area I would probably not even walk my dog outside. I won't even tell you what a dog fighting ring did to a 7 month old GSD a couple years ago....sick, these people are just sick


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think Codemaster was right to suggest not trying to kick an aggressive dog in the face. Really you probably will end up getting bitten. A kick to the region between the dogs front legs will cause damage to the dog though. Still that is dangerous. I would rather get a sickt or roll up my jacket so the dog would bite that instead if he was going to bite at all.

The suggestion to use mace is the best one really as that will stop any dog and won't get you hurt.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> ...you can also use sticks and other improvised weapons if you are ok with carrying them everywhere.


Alwaysaworkingdog, I completely agree with everything you've said - for brevity I'm only quoting this small portion of your posts. The one weapon that we've always got on hand is the leash, and if you own a good one it will make quite an impact! I know: I double mine up and use it as a whip when I have to, to dissuade a dog from fighting, and I've also sent a charging GSD home yelping by smacking its muzzle with the heavy-duty clip. It's very effective! It has to be a quality leather one though, not a flimsy nylon weave, lol. 

Oh I know codmaster, you're going to quote the above and ridicule me. Yes, the leash will sometimes be attached to the dog....ho hum... you can always carry the second one. It's a harmless device and nobody will question it. I prefer to attack with a weapon, rather than my body, because that way I'm actually going after the dog in question rather than waiting for it to come to me. 

The other weapon we have is our voice. I can make the loudest racket when I yell, "HEY!" that I've convinced many dogs to back off just with that alone. This is a much better word than, "NO!" because you can take a deep breath first and push the sound out from your stomach - the 'no' doesn't work nearly as well, since this sound is coming more from the back of the throat instead. Everyone, try it!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think AlwaysaworkingDog summed it up with this,


> I am no dog expert


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Darn it, me either


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> I sound like a martial arts expert because I can spell Taekwondo? and know a little bit about thai kick boxing? Man, they must have low standards in your neck of the woods.:crazy: So you're a black belt in Judo and you don't know how to spell Taekwondo? Also, so very humble of you to gloat about your black belt, what is this? the 70's? haha theres got to be a bumper sticker for that. They obviously didn't have an ettiquette section in your training class. From what I understand being a black belt in Korean Judo doesn't really make you a martial arts expert either, it MIGHT make you an expert in Korean Judo, which is a fairly nichey and limited martial art if I do recall.
> 
> I don't class knowing how to defend yourself or your dog in the event of a dog attack as "dog training", how does that have anything to do with "dog training"?? Unless I am training the dog not to come near me again by kicking it
> 
> ...


 
*"Rabid dog?" Do you believe that any dog that attacks you or your dog must be RABID? *

*Another most interesting post. Thank you! *

*Lengthy - but amusing, so early in the day!*

And if you feel that you need to protect your dog, rather than the other way around - good for you! I would do this for a puppy, but if you need to protect your dog no matter it's age - then you should jump in front of the attacker, kick him with your foot, (or shin) and protect your dog!

Thanks again!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

codmaster if your dog can protect itself why would you be beating on the other dog while your dog is brutalizing it? If a dog attacks or when a dog attacks my dog my first concern is to save the other dogs life. 


This is getting really silly

Alwaysworkingdog what kind of working dog do you have that is in constant need of your protection so bad? Where did you get your dog from?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

DId you guys notice that almost all the owners of adult working dogs dont really say much in these threads. They do not seem very worried. I wonder why?

my dog is a pp dog kicks would just get her more excited even a kick in the head would make her want to attack more but she would never be caught attacking another dog unless in self defense.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

It just put her into higher drive and made her grab his leg. But from what i have heard dogs have grabbed decoys shoes and ruined their feet and sent them to the er cause of it. 

DEPENds on the dog some are soft some will get hyped up on the violence.

IVe seen dogs kicked and stomped by horses get up and be okay these are smaller dogs also it just depends on the dog.


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## damaya (Feb 1, 2011)

I learned in another thread the best bet is to go "farmer" on it.
(shoot it in the face)

just kidding - real lesson - stay out of "dog park" threads

carry on


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I have been around a lot of Pitt Bulls and they are just aggressive. I've hared the "it's how they are raised argument", but I don't buy it. We raised one. We did not train it to be aggressive and he was aggressive and would fight. 

With that being said it's the main reason I stay away from our local dog park. We have a lot of Pitts in this area and the owners think it's ok to bring their lunging, growling intense pitts into the dog parks. (We have two areas one for large dogs and one for small dogs. They take them in the small dogs area.) The last time they did not take the pitt off the leash, but that in itself was a sign. Who brings a dog into the leash free small dog area that they can't trust to be off a leash. 

Perhaps I'm over protective, but I have broken up my fair share of pitt bull fights. I've seen dogs get their ears and faces sewn back together. I would rather be over protective than have an injured dog.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

trcy said:


> I have been around a lot of Pitt Bulls and they are just aggressive.


Yeah and Poms are yappy and GSD's are human aggressive. I'm being sarcastic...

Weird that the pits i meet aren't agressive. I've a lab cross and a bullmastiff cross and never had a fight with another dog and do meet a lot of different dogs on our walks including staffies and pits and bull crosses.

I do think it is relative to socialising and responsable ownership.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

trcy said:


> I have been around a lot of Pitt Bulls and they are just aggressive.


Wow... funny I've never met an aggressive pit bull in my life and I've been around quite a few, they were all wriggly love bugs. I think it's how you raise them but I also think it's how they're bred just like with GSD's. You can have a GSD raised really well but have a lot of nerve, fear and aggression issues from bad breeding.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I used to go to my local dog park because there were only locals there and it was relatively quiet and the dogs were great and had some great times there. But this past year I don't know what happened, word must have gotten about it because now it's filled with idiots.

The last time I went there was this lab mix barking and snarling at the entry gate as we were trying to come in and the owner was no where to be seen. Then this newer guy I've seen there has this aggressive little rat terrier that is constantly getting into fights and all he does is yell at it. At one point he was yelling at it to "get over here right now!" and pointing down to the ground... I just had to laugh and think yeah you're dog is so going to come to you while you're screaming at it then he picked it up and shoved the dogs face in his and continued to yell at it. I felt really bad for the poor pup, I won't be back.

Unless you can find an exceptionally good park, there's just too many idiots or ignorant people out there that make them dangerous and just not worth it.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I do think it is relative to socialising and responsable ownership.


This is part of it as well as the breeding. A pitt killed a dog at our dog park. After that they added the small dog area, but for some reason the idiot owners think they are small dogs and take them in the small dog area. 

This guy brought a pitt in the small dog park about a year ago. She was off leash, very excited and he was watching her a lot. Which was fine. I asked him if she was aggressive and he said she only got into one fight with a german shepherd and he paid the vet bills. ok...great. :rolleyes2:

I don't have a fear of the dogs hurting me, but when they fight it is bad for the dog on the receiving end. 

The trainer for my 4 month old GSD told me I should take him to the dog park so he gets used to other dogs. I tried. I'm just not comfortable taking him there.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

If you ever feel uncomfortable in a dog park get out of there. It is not worth it especially if you have a young dog. 

I think you have to guage the mood and avoid the place if there are some out of control dogs.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Alwaysworkingdog what kind of working dog do you have that is in constant need of your protection so bad? Where did you get your dog from?


I don't think he or she was saying their dog is in constant need of protecting... 

I took what he/she said as in protecting the dog in situations that called for it.. Since we are supposed to be the dogs leader..

Personally I feel Alwaysworkingdog has some good insight!


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

Wow..this has gotten way past WolfieWolf's initial inquiry. Alot of kicking and agressive stuff, which in my opinion, is not necessary. I really feel that we (PEOPLE) are responsible for our dogs behavior. Of course, we are not perfect. Step back, and realize that if we are upset, stressed, scared, we are going to pass that on to our dog at the dog park. Imagine we are blissfull (I know...not most of the time), how everything seems easier. I have been trying this, and when I am relaxed, really relaxed it is amazing. Honestly, I think I am relaxed about 42% of the time...but that is better than 2% when I first brought Mika to the dog park 2 years ago. I also have an awesome group of dog owners who support me and Mika regardless of what happens. Work in progress. Good luck...but it is up to us, It is not the dogs fault.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

If you aren't comfortable with it, it isn't okay. Period. That being said, my dogs play like that sometimes and they do tend to "gang up" on one another. However, they are pack mates. I don't know if I would feel comfortable with it, because since your dog was submitting and not playing back, the other dogs might take it too far and it could become a fight. I don't necessarily think the 2 dogs were trying to be mean, but I do think it could have become a bad situation and I would stay away in the future. I never go to dog parks for this reason. You never know what dog will be there, what disease they will have, or what will happen. Even a perfectly well behaved dog could start a fight in the right situation. If I ever get relatively rich but don't have the yard I want, I want to buy up an empty lot, fence it, and use it as a personal dog park. I could lock it and give keys to family members with pets who might want a place to let their dog run.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

trcy said:


> I have been around a lot of Pitt Bulls and they are just aggressive. I've hared the "it's how they are raised argument", but I don't buy it. We raised one. We did not train it to be aggressive and he was aggressive and would fight.
> 
> With that being said it's the main reason I stay away from our local dog park. We have a lot of Pitts in this area and the owners think it's ok to bring their lunging, growling intense pitts into the dog parks. (We have two areas one for large dogs and one for small dogs. They take them in the small dogs area.) The last time they did not take the pitt off the leash, but that in itself was a sign. Who brings a dog into the leash free small dog area that they can't trust to be off a leash.
> 
> Perhaps I'm over protective, but I have broken up my fair share of pitt bull fights. I've seen dogs get their ears and faces sewn back together. I would rather be over protective than have an injured dog.


You can't even spell the name of the breed, but you're going to claim they're "just aggressive"? No, they aren't. Stupid people don't know anything about them and add to the stereotype. Dog aggression in pit bulls can be genetic. That doesn't make them an aggressive breed. Plenty of them are not, same thing with GSDs. I have fostered countless pits, owned numerous pits (including one now) and have never had an issue. I've also worked in shelters with problem dogs and never had an issue with the pits.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

pets4life said:


> Alwaysworkingdog what kind of working dog do you have that is in constant need of your protection so bad? Where did you get your dog from?


I got my dog from the queen of england???

I don't think I ever stated that I currently have a working dog, nor did I ever state that it was in constant need of protecting - those are your assumptions. My current dog isn't a working animal at all, she is from one of the shelters of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, RSPCA. But, nevertheless, all dogs, regardless of breed, working/non-working require our protection ALL THE TIME, as owners. That's why we keep them in enclosures, look after their health with regular vet visits and proper nutrition and exercise. It's why we keep them on leashes when we're out walking and make sure they have somewhere warm to sleep at night.

In relation to what I stated, you can avoid bad areas, dog parks, bad neighbourhooods etc. to minimise your risk, so you don't have to constantly be on edge. But I take the opinion that it's a free country and I can walk my dog whereever I want. It's the responsibility of others to control their animal.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

pets4life said:


> It just put her into higher drive and made her grab his leg. But from what i have heard dogs have grabbed decoys shoes and ruined their feet and sent them to the er cause of it.
> 
> DEPENds on the dog some are soft some will get hyped up on the violence.
> 
> IVe seen dogs kicked and stomped by horses get up and be okay these are smaller dogs also it just depends on the dog.


Very true about it all depending on the dog, however, you can never truly put your dog in a situation where it will feel the full impact of someone kicking it. I can't imagine any legitmate helper actually kicking your dog as hard as he could, just to "test" it, even in an area as unregulated as "personal protection". Theres a big difference between the intensities there.


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## damaya (Feb 1, 2011)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Making such a generalisation(sp) about dogs





> you can avoid bad areas, dog parks


Haven't you just made a generalization about dog parks?
While not a regular at the dog park. My experience at them has not been bad.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Moshamoon said:


> Alot of kicking and agressive stuff, which in my opinion, is not necessary.


Well, Longfisher's puppy was nipped by the Lab before he kicked it. IMO, that's justified. Why would anyone think otherwise? I'll give you a few details about my ordeal: the neighbor's GSD was outside with them as we (my GSD and BF) walked past. Their dog was lying at their side. When we were about 200' away, the dog charged at us. I yelled for them to call their dog and they had the audacity to laugh at me! I yell again, now the dog was much closer, but they refused to call him back. He'd bitten my dog in the past, so I had every reason to assume he'd bite him again. Except - because I was standing there yelling, the dog was charging at me! WHACK! YELP! Turn tail and run. Ordeal over. What would you have done any differently?

I see what you're saying about everyone controlling their dog, and in a Utopian world I'm sure that's the way things operate. However....


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> I was going to write a long rant about how irresponsible it was of you to take a pupy that young to a dog park and that common sense should convince you otherwise.


In light of what happened, I'd have deserved the criticism of your rant.

We had another GSD about two years ago who wouldn't turn tail even at 4 months. So, we just didn't know.

But sure, we could have been smarter. Again, I'd have deserved the criticism.

LF


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Thanks for the Advice*



codmaster said:


> So just be careful! Your dog (unless a puppy) is MUCH more capable of dealing with a dog attack than the vast majority of owners are. Once your dog engages the other dog - THEN you move in and pound/kick the h%$% out of the other dog. BTW, better with a weapon - i.e. stick, club, rock, etc.


Excellent advice for when he's older. Thanks.

LF


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Longfisher said:


> Excellent advice for when he's older. Thanks.
> 
> LF



worst advice in the world, id end up with a dead dog that way


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

We all seem to have differing opinions on this, but yup, bad advice IMO too. Why not just learn to read canine body language and do what you can to avoid the fight altogether?


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Thanks Longfisher, for joining this board and sharing your experiences. Welcome!
> 
> What your trainer told you is very intriguing. It makes sense to me - that's why I always go on the attack when my dog is a target. I'd love to know who your trainer is, to learn more about it. Please share that info with me, in a private message if you'd rather. Has your puppy grown up to have confidence around other dogs, since you were able to protect him from that Lab?


I'm delighted to be here, and, thank you for the warm welcome.

BTW, I've already learned a lot from you guys and gals. Thanks for that too.

The trainer is a neighbor who was a Marine Corps dog trainer, handler and kennel-master for 16 years as part of the Corps Military Policy units. Unlike other military trainers who seem to be heavy-handed his entire approach is minimalist and positive. He uses three tools only, a good leash or lead in verying lengths, a training (choke) collars which he merely tugs and doesn't jerk and a simple kong.

I guess he also uses praise, experience and long-ago-acquired intuition about the dog and how it's reacting and will react. I've never seen anyone like this fellow.

He's in the Houston area, if you're really interested. Just PM me again and I'll provide his contact information.

But he's medically discharged, wounds. So, he's selective about the dogs he works with.

Hahaha, he's less selective about the dog owners and that's why he works with me.

About the kicking of an attacking dog...I tend to believe that results tell the tale of the appropriateness of a tactic provided it's not immoral. When I kicked the laborador he immediately retreated and didn't return for another bite. For me that was better than all the other options I had to increase the force used. So, I'm happy with my decision.

Besides, it was instinctual to kick the attacking dog. There wasn't any real thinking in the act. Perhaps homonids have been kicking attacking dogs since time began? The evidence that it's effective might be that we're here on the planet at all and didn't amount to nothing more than dog-tooth scarred bones in a few rocky prehistoric dens.

LF


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Well, Longfisher's puppy was nipped by the Lab before he kicked it. IMO, that's justified. Why would anyone think otherwise? I'll give you a few details about my ordeal: the neighbor's GSD was outside with them as we (my GSD and BF) walked past. Their dog was lying at their side. When we were about 200' away, the dog charged at us. I yelled for them to call their dog and they had the audacity to laugh at me! I yell again, now the dog was much closer, but they refused to call him back. He'd bitten my dog in the past, so I had every reason to assume he'd bite him again. Except - because I was standing there yelling, the dog was charging at me! WHACK! YELP! Turn tail and run. Ordeal over. What would you have done any differently?
> 
> I see what you're saying about everyone controlling their dog, and in a Utopian world I'm sure that's the way things operate. However....


*Totally justified!*

Just got to be careful (and ready) - some dogs don't turn tail and run but instead will turn on you! 
Then one hopes that your dog will aid you! (Mine did!)


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Spelling.*



DJEtzel said:


> You can't even spell the name of the breed.


There seems to be a considerable emphasis on this forum about correct spelling.

So, let me say from the outset that, although I have an education, I'm a terrible speller. In the absence of a spell-checker I often misspell my own name as I type so fast. I also don't believe proper spelling in a post on a forum is sufficiently important to warrant a critical spelling review.

So, please forgive me for my poor spelling. The spelling errors will undoubtedly be frequent.

Best,

LF


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I share the thought that it's simply instinct to protect our dogs. I don't put any thought behind it, other than when I'm sitting here typing away, lol!

Thanks for sharing your trainer - PM sent 

ETA: Thanks codmaster - I believe he earned his whack. But boy were those neighbors ever mad at me! LOL!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

blanket what did they do to you? I thought they were laughing at u?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Longfisher said:


> There seems to be a considerable emphasis on this forum about correct spelling.
> 
> So, let me say from the outset that, although I have an education, I'm a terrible speller. In the absence of a spell-checker I often misspell my own name as I type so fast. I also don't believe proper spelling in a post on a forum is sufficiently important to warrant a critical spelling review.
> 
> ...


longfishar,

true about poor spelling but to many folks a lot of poor spelling might even indicate a degree of carelessness.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

pets4life, they started yelling insults at me every time I passed them outside. I tried to take the high road and ignore them, but my temper got the better of me after awhile. They were total idiots, and they were screaming obscene things, until I snapped and called them on their ignorance. I yelled back and after that they were quiet. Weirdos. Then one day they ran into my room mate and told them that I should know that their dog was hit by a car playing ball in an area that we all used - the owner said I'd be glad. More proof of their idiocy, since I had nothing against their dog, just the bloodshed. Geez, some people!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

codmaster said:


> longfishar,
> 
> true about poor spelling but to many folks a lot of poor spelling might even indicate a degree of carelessness.



So I have to ask....what does sarcasm indicate?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

blanket that is insane but you seem really brave though lol To just tell off groups of people like that. You must be tough. Were they a bunch of guys?


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Disturbing the Peace*



Blanketback said:


> pets4life, they started yelling insults at me every time I passed them outside. I tried to take the high road and ignore them, but my temper got the better of me after awhile. They were total idiots, and they were screaming obscene things, until I snapped and called them on their ignorance. I yelled back and after that they were quiet. Weirdos. Then one day they ran into my room mate and told them that I should know that their dog was hit by a car playing ball in an area that we all used - the owner said I'd be glad. More proof of their idiocy, since I had nothing against their dog, just the bloodshed. Geez, some people!


I've had similar instances in my past. But with a couple of witnesses in hand and a cell phone call to law enforcement with the intent to file charges for disturbing the peace or terrorist threats has always done the trick.

If you don't mind my opinion, people use peace officers too infrequently to enforce the peace.

LF


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I just would not walk by scum like that. Or go near them. Life is trouble as it is, don't need the extra garbage. Unless its right beside my property of course.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Well, Longfisher's puppy was nipped by the Lab before he kicked it. IMO, that's justified. Why would anyone think otherwise? I'll give you a few details about my ordeal: the neighbor's GSD was outside with them as we (my GSD and BF) walked past. Their dog was lying at their side. When we were about 200' away, the dog charged at us. I yelled for them to call their dog and they had the audacity to laugh at me! I yell again, now the dog was much closer, but they refused to call him back. He'd bitten my dog in the past, so I had every reason to assume he'd bite him again. Except - because I was standing there yelling, the dog was charging at me! WHACK! YELP! Turn tail and run. Ordeal over. What would you have done any differently?
> 
> I see what you're saying about everyone controlling their dog, and in a Utopian world I'm sure that's the way things operate. However....


I can see in your situation a need to take action. Don't get me wrong, you need to protect yourself and your dog, especially when the other dog owner is a jerk. I had a dog kicked once, and it was not justified. My experience is I get scared when charged at, and I have stood tall between my dog and the charging dog. The charging dog stopped eventually and retreated on more than one occasion. This has helped my dog trust me to protect her. Just another alternative to put out there.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I have a question and please understand that itis not aimed at anyone but just a question in general.

That is, how in the world does one stay in front of an active GSD in defense serious mode who wants to confront the charger?

My 90lb male GSD is pretty obedient most of the time but there is no way that he would stay in a stay with a strange aggressive dog bearing down on us and even more so if the dog confronts me!

And maybe I am getting old and slow, but I can't see any way that I can get and stay between him and the other dog.

So what is the secret of doing that with a dog who is not trying to hide behind his/her owner?

A friend of mine's GSD male did exactly that and she was able to stay between him and the other dog in one incident but that is because thye dog wanted no part of the other dog; but I can't see it happening with my guy (who fully believes that it is his job to protect me and my wife - always has to seem to feel that way).


If your dog is well enough trained to sit still as the other dog is attacking - I would congratulate anyone for great training but I doubt if m and my pooch will ever attain that level of obedience!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I am assuming that most of these dogs are either pups or just scared/submissive dogs that will want to bolt. My dog would want to protect me or itself from a charging dog or a person. Once my dog gets a hold of it, it will be very hard to get my dog to let go. If the other dog makes contact.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

I do have a submissive gsd. But I have been doing this since she was a pup. I don't know if I hadn't, she would not try and protect me. I have had many dogs of various breeds, mainly rescue dogs. Mika is my first from a breeder. The focus has been to not have Mika react as my other dogs did. Believe me, I have a lot of training to do, but having her trust me is key.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Interesting discussion!

I am curious as to how many GSD owners would want (and expect) their dogs (adults!) to at least attempt to protect them from an attack? Canine, human or even another animal (cougar, bear, horse?).

I would certainly expect mine to (and the couple times that it was needed, they have!).

Should be part of the breed temperament, to me at least.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

(...I hit enter too quickly) When these dogs are charging, I am between my dog and the charger from a distance. Mika does not try and bolt, but if the charging dog does not retreat, we have a different story. The fact my submissive girl does not freak out is huge to me.

I firmly believe that if I panic, Mika will try and protect me. In the scenarios I describe, I am calm and standing my ground, and she sees no reason to panic.

As we all know, having a strong breed lends itself to having more responsibility to control our dog. Hopefully there will never be an encounter where my girl needs to jump in front of me, although I suppose this is bound to happen. Unfortunately Mika would probably lose.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

omg its a no brainer,keep your dog out of dog parks! dog parks are where owners go to not pay attention to their dogs and allow their dogs to gang up on other dogs,and where bully breeds go and should not be allowed...( i own a bully breed and would never bring him to a dog park due to the DA that is in their genes from 200 years of breeding) instead of risking your dogs life at a dog park schedule monitored play dates with dogs you KNOW.... its much safer for every one involved


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe I'm just a mean and bossy person. Lol! But really, what do our dogs, being domesticated pets, have to fight over? Not breeding rights, since many are speutered anyways. Not food. Not territory, since this is mostly happening on neutral ground. I just don't see *why* they feel they have the right to fight. Oh, I'm such a dictator - but yes, I do dictate what my dog can do, and the only time he'll be allowed to fight is when he's next in line - when I'm done with the aggressor, lol. Thankfully, I've never run into a dog that can't be persuaded to bolt. Or been in a situation where I need my dog to protect me. I pray that my luck holds out.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

codmaster said:


> Interesting discussion!
> 
> I am curious as to how many GSD owners would want (and expect) their dogs (adults!) to at least attempt to protect them from an attack? Canine, human or even another animal (cougar, bear, horse?).
> 
> ...


And henceforth codmaster initiated another one of the great (pointless) debates - will an untrained dog protect its owner...

I suppose most dogs are capable of barking and showing aggressive displays, doesn't mean that we should depend on them or have some "expectation" that they should protect us, a lot of that is grounded in macho bullmatter. Nor does that mean that it would ever classify as "protecting". Unless you're dog has good nerves, it's not going to do much more than bark and posture for a bit until faecal matter gets real, then revert to avoidance. Taking that one step further, if you do have a dog with good nerves, it will lack the mechanics and confidence that comes through training to a) fight effectively b) be under control c) withstand pain etc. etc. the list goes on.

Only a dog trained in some form of protection should be expected to do something, as the dog is trained for it. If you want to realise the full potential of dogs to "protect" us (though in most cases this is quite a contradiction as gun beats dog in most cases and anyone who dares enough to come through a barking german shepherd already has really bad intentions) get a working line dog with good nerves and drive and get it into a protection sport, it's as close to can come.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

damaya said:


> Haven't you just made a generalization about dog parks?
> While not a regular at the dog park. My experience at them has not been bad.


No I don't believe I have, I'd say I'm stating an opinion informed by personal experience, basic logic and word of mouth.

I'm not generalising dog parks to some place where you shouldn't take your dog because it wil be attacked instantly and your life will be over, such that I alienate people who use them resonsibly and have control over their dogs. I am in complete and utter acknowledgement (as I believe I have stated) of the fact that there are dog parks that, in some point in time, contained a good mixture of neutral dogs that all got along famously, held hands, danced in a circle and sung Bob Dylan songs. I acknowledge this probably happens regularly, although that would be generalising as well.

I am merely stating that their very "state" is chaotic and unknown, and rather than playing doggy roulette and waiting to see where the ball settles, if there are aggressive dominant dogs today or neutral dogs, you can avoid them all together. In gambling, the odds are always stacked against you.

Thanks for the quiry, but I think that kind of cherry picking is best left in the orchard.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

Vicki2200 said, "If I ever get relatively rich but don't have the yard I want, I want to buy up an empty lot, fence it, and use it as a personal dog park. I could lock it and give keys to family members with pets who might want a place to let their dog run."

Vicki, that is exactly what we'd like to do too because our yard is so pitifully small. Surprisingly, an empty lot isn't that available or affordable though, either that or there are CC&Rs that wouldn't allow a fenced lot with no house. We're thinking maybe someone with land would lease us a portion we could fence off. 

As the OP I had no idea my question had generated such a long and intense discussion. For some reason the email alerts for my thread didn't come through, and I just came here this morning to see if maybe anyone had posted a comment or two more, and was I ever surprised.

I'll admit you only got our side of the story, and I was feeling shaken when I told it because it had just happened. In retrospect and having read all the comments (thank you everyone who gave encouragement and other counsel pro and con) I still think we did the right thing. My husband did not yell at the other dog owner or start the comments. He merely moved the other dog off our dog (by the collar) and that's when the conversation began -- the other owner yelled at husband for touching his dog. We have not been back to the dog park. It doesn't feel like a very friendly place after that.

1. I am going to take the advice and report it to the City Park manager.
2. Had no idea there were private dog parks and I'm going to see if we have any. There really should be someone supervising these places given everything written above, and since they ARE meant for dogs (it's not the public street).

There are so many wonderful people and wonderful dogs we've met at this little dog park, it's unfortunate that it gets spoiled.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

mebully21 said:


> omg its a no brainer,keep your dog out of dog parks! dog parks are where owners go to not pay attention to their dogs and allow their dogs to gang up on other dogs,and where bully breeds go and should not be allowed...( i own a bully breed and would never bring him to a dog park due to the DA that is in their genes from 200 years of breeding) instead of risking your dogs life at a dog park schedule monitored play dates with dogs you KNOW.... its much safer for every one involved


This is your experience about dog parks YOU'VE been to. Not all are as you described at all. The dog park where I work is full of responsible members and staff, and friendly dogs.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> This is your experience about dog parks YOU'VE been to. Not all are as you described at all. The dog park where I work is full of responsible members and staff, and friendly dogs.


DJ, your dog park sounds great, and I think the reason why is in your statement -- you and other responsible people are there, someone's in charge besides the dogs. Ours, as nice as it is, has rules (like leash your dog and leave if it gets aggressive) but no one but dogs and owners to enforce them. Even when there have been some little troublemakers going around trying to start fights (nowhere near the level of the ones who bullied our dog) nobody did a thing except look pained and maybe a couple whispers. No owner went to take his dog out of the fray, just some repeated yelling to the dog, "Apollo stop that!" Ha! Dog park is supposed to be a "nice" place so no one wants to be the bad guy.

Well I just read something Cesar Millan said, that no unneutered dog should be taken to a dog park, so since ours is intact, I guess that means we shouldn't be going anyway, that sort of ends the dilemma.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Are dog parks probably not the best places in the world? Sure...but for many people they are the only option to allow their dogs to run off leash in a fenced in area. The ones I go to are pretty well "self-policed" with people not really accepting aggressive dogs.

Usually one incident is a "dogs will be dogs" thing but if the same dog keeps getting into scruffs the person is kind of banished from at least that day of fun by the rest of the people who are watchful enough to pull their dogs as far away from that person as possible.

Most people living in cities don't have the space to set up a doggie play date or don't know other people with dogs. I live in an apartment...I don't have a fenced area to let my dog play in, so we'd go to the park. Most people also don't have the best of recall trained on their dog so they can't even trust them in a semi-fenced or just really wide open area as the dog might take off on them. Now that he has great recall, I can take him to other parks and let him run off leash and make sure he doesn't bother anyone (illegally). I don't worry about it much as I go to places with very very few people.

Every time one of these threads pops up it vilifies dog parks to the point that it seems like every dog in there just wants to kill the others. I've been to different dog parks hundreds of times in the past 2 years, and have seen less than 10 fights. I've also never seen blood, or any kind of injury that would require medical attention.

99% of dogs at the dog parks I've been to are very friendly and would never hurt anything. There is 1% that are capable (including my boy who has gotten into tussles) and when you spot one of those the best advice is to either leave, or to make sure that the owner has control of that dog (I have very good control and monitor when my boy is getting a bit too rough).

My dog is intact...so I don't agree with intact dogs not being allowed in. He doesn't react to other males unless they react to him, so its not fair for me to not do things with my dog because other people can't train their dogs to not react.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> And henceforth codmaster initiated another one of the great (pointless) debates - will an untrained dog protect its owner... * ??????????????????????*
> 
> I suppose most dogs are capable of barking and showing aggressive displays* (HOW ABOUT BITING?)* , doesn't mean that we should depend on them or have some "expectation" that they should protect us, a lot of that is grounded in macho bullmatter. Nor does that mean that it would ever classify as "protecting". Unless you're dog has good nerves, it's not going to do much more than bark and posture for a bit until faecal matter gets real, then revert to avoidance. Taking that one step further, if you do have a dog with good nerves, it will *lack the mechanics* and confidence that comes through training to a) *fight effectively* b) be under control c) withstand pain etc. etc. the list goes on.
> 
> ...


"always",

from some of your really weird comment above, it appears that maybe you are involved in training protection dogs in sme aspect. Maybe training people's dogs that perhaps you make money on doing? just wondering.

perhaps, you should have been taught to read something before commenting??

I am guessing from your unrelated comments and outright sarcasm in your reaction to my post that maybe you might do something with training dogs in protection. Do you have GSD's or another working breed? 

Does your country have their own GSD standard that might be different than the US or SV one. I am not at all familiar with the GSD in Australia. Could be that your problem might just be that you are working under a totally different standard for the GSD temperament, perhaps?

At any rate, the US GSD standard (as does the SV) does talk about the GSD temperament (maybe read that before commenting so negatively about my question as to what peoples desire and expectation of the behavior they would expect from their GSD would be?).


Try reading my post one more time, (but just in case you cannot!) - what I was asking for general comments about was very simple: Do most people want their GSD to try to protect them and do they think that their dog would try to protect them?

That is all I was curious about!


I do know that two of my past dogs (with NO protection training by me or a *hired protection dog trainer*!) have done exectly that in two different scenarios! 

So to think that it doesn't happen is nonsense! Would formal training improve things - probably; BUT that wasn't the topic of this thread so please respect that when you join into this particular thread here.

*Just to get your view - do YOU think that a GSD should at least try to protect their owner if there is a physical threat? *

Without any of your formal protection training? *Please give us your view.*

And maybe a hint as to how you actually are involved in protection dog training?

Now if you do not want to say anything about the two questions above, totally understandable and ok.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

WolfieWolf said:


> DJ, your dog park sounds great, and I think the reason why is in your statement -- you and other responsible people are there, someone's in charge besides the dogs. Ours, as nice as it is, has rules (like leash your dog and leave if it gets aggressive) but no one but dogs and owners to enforce them. Even when there have been some little troublemakers going around trying to start fights (nowhere near the level of the ones who bullied our dog) nobody did a thing except look pained and maybe a couple whispers. No owner went to take his dog out of the fray, just some repeated yelling to the dog, "Apollo stop that!" Ha! Dog park is supposed to be a "nice" place so no one wants to be the bad guy.
> 
> Well I just read something Cesar Millan said, that no unneutered dog should be taken to a dog park, so since ours is intact, I guess that means we shouldn't be going anyway, that sort of ends the dilemma.


My point is that no one can paint every dog park with the same brush. Some suck, but some, like mine, are really safe places for dogs and owners to go. 

And... I would quit watching Cesar Millan if I were you. That man has no idea what he's talking about. 

I took my GSD to the dog park while he was intact for 2 years, and he was/is the temperament test/greeter dog at the park where I work. 

My 7 month old puppy is also intact and he's been going since he was 7.5 weeks. He's also a greeter dog.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

OP, to answer the original question, my vote is that you were not being "overprotective." However, I don't think based on your description that it was _necessary_ to remove your dog when you did. And I don't think it would have been irresponsible as an owner for you to stay a while and see what developed.

On every dog park trip we have taken I have seen this behavior--one to three dogs will suddenly start chasing a submissive, shy, or young dog (the breeds and sizes are irrelevant--they all are capable of this). Almost always this ends with the chased dog stopping, and the others surrounding it. Some growling ensues, a little weakly dominant behavior, and the chased dog tucks its tail and submits. Everyone sniffs, gets quickly bored, and trots away. One can tell by watching that it is more of an exercise in letting off steam than an aggressive attack. When given the chance to attack the chasers usually back off, 90% of the time.

The other 10% of the time one or more of the chasers gets too excited. He will try to dominate, growl, bite at the back of the neck, but then back off before any harm is done. This is instinctual; dogs don't want to fight unless they feel it is necessary. This dominance establishment satisfies them and they move on. No harm done. The submissive dog will then relax and go play again. "Not having a good time" is sometimes the human feelings about seeing this happen to the dog, not the dog's emotion about it.

Very infrequently does it turn into a situation where there is teeth-barring, holding down the dog and crossing that line into sustained aggressive behavior. In our dog park the owners have been quick to break this up. I suppose I'm just fortunate, but I have not seen a serious fight break out. Most of the dogs at our park are well socialized and the owners are conscientious. 

Liesl has been on both sides of this, both the pursued and the pursuer. Yes, I watch closely and evaluate the behavior of the chasing dog(s) when she is the chased. I feel she has benefited from learning that this can happen and how to deal with it in dog world. When she is the chaser, I call her off, and physically retrieve her if necessary when she is chasing a dog who is clearly not able to handle the situation well. If it is another dog of equal size and pugnacity who is in a playful "give and take" with her, then I consider it rough play and let it go. (When she plays one on one with other equal sized dogs in our yard the play is rough like this, with no squabbles. Look at all the pix on this forum of GSDs playing with each other and you'll see.) The more they engage in this, IMHO, the more they learn not be scared, the more they grow in confidence, and the more they can handle this situation appropriately.

Bottom line is: there is a valid theory that this social interaction and learning how to deal with packs, chasing, dominance, etc. is important for a dog. Yes, you can shelter it such that it never experiences this in its 14 year life. But it is not an inappropriate choice to allow it to experience as fully as possible, with the bounds of safety, all of dog world. The caveat is be responsible to your dog and the others and do your best not let things escalate.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Are dog parks probably not the best places in the world? Sure...but for many people they are the only option to allow their dogs to run off leash in a fenced in area. The ones I go to are pretty well "self-policed" with people not really accepting aggressive dogs.
> 
> Usually one incident is a "dogs will be dogs" thing but if the same dog keeps getting into scruffs the person is kind of banished from at least that day of fun by the rest of the people who are watchful enough to pull their dogs as far away from that person as possible.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting thoughts about dog parks.

I have an intact 5yo male GSD and we don't do dog parks. We tried a few times when he was a lot younger and he pretty quickly demonstrated that as he got a little more mature his was not a personality to be in a dog park. He is a very pushy and dominant dog and was friendly usually, but if another male dog showed "an attitude) (like him!), then it was not a lot of fun.

And he did not have a 100% recall under heavy distraction (another pushy male dog, for instance) so we do not do parks.

Plus where we live many of the dog parks do not allow intact males over 6 mo anyway (for some stupid reason like they think the dogs won't fight if neutered, I guess).

But the vast majority of dogs do get along with each other very nicely and I can see that if you get in one of these parks it can be a very nice experience for both dog and owner.


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## Moshamoon (Jan 10, 2013)

billsharp said:


> OP, to answer the original question, my vote is that you were not being "overprotective." However, I don't think based on your description that it was _necessary_ to remove your dog when you did. And I don't think it would have been irresponsible as an owner for you to stay a while and see what developed.
> 
> On every dog park trip we have taken I have seen this behavior--one to three dogs will suddenly start chasing a submissive, shy, or young dog (the breeds and sizes are irrelevant--they all are capable of this). Almost always this ends with the chased dog stopping, and the others surrounding it. Some growling ensues, a little weakly dominant behavior, and the chased dog tucks its tail and submits. Everyone sniffs, gets quickly bored, and trots away. One can tell by watching that it is more of an exercise in letting off steam than an aggressive attack. When given the chance to attack the chasers usually back off, 90% of the time.
> 
> ...


I think you said it better than anyone else.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Agreed with the above.


However, many folks would proabably interpret "rough play" differently depending on whether their own dog is the one on top or is the recipient of the biting of the neck, etc.

Would tend to cloud your judgement as to whether or not the play is too rough (or is fighting!).


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

codmaster said:


> "always",
> 
> from some of your really weird comment above, it appears that maybe you are involved in training protection dogs in sme aspect. Maybe training people's dogs that perhaps you make money on doing? just wondering.
> 
> ...


Ohh Call of Duty Master, you're so insecure for a BB in Judo, I meant no harm in my sarcasm, I was merely relating to how many times I have seen people arguing about whether their dog would protect them. No I don't train dogs in protection, I just read, a lot. From what other educated people have written, I'm basically just repeating things that I have read. The best way to learn about anything, if you cannot do it, is to read.

It's hard to understand what you're saying as I've noticed you have difficulty articulating yourself.

But in response to your accusations and questions.

I don't think my commments were unrelated at all, you asked

"I am curious as to how many GSD owners would want (and expect) their dogs (adults!) to at least attempt to protect them from an attack? Canine, human or even another animal (cougar, bear, horse?)."

And I stated my opinion about the concept of dogs being capable to protect their owner and why I think the idea that you're pushing has inherit flaws. It's an appraisal of your comment rather than a direct answer but it's still very much related. I do believe I'm the only one to comment also, so I think you should show your number one fan some courtesy.

It's also extremely hypocritical of you say that I was being off-topic, when you attempted to start a dicussion about whether people would expect their dogs to defend them in a time of crisis on a thread about owner responsibility and dog attacks. That seems more "unrelated" to the thread, than my post does to your post. Think before you type old codmaster.

So when you say things like 

"BUT that wasn't the topic of this thread so please respect that when you join into this particular thread here."

You may want to stop about whether your contradicting yourself with what you're writing.

If you're assuming that everyone who owns a GSD knows or bothers to pay attention to the "breed standard" I think you may be surprised by how many people don't know what it states.

I'm not sure why you would be curious about that, nobody "knows" if their dog will protect them and "thinking" it doesn't connect with reality, so your question is flawed and close ended. And in response to people "wanting" their dog to protect them, I gave my opinion of that question and the idea behind it, that it is foolish to depend on an untrained dog to defend them.

People who are completely alienated from actual working dogs can crap on about breed standards. Ultimately, the breed standard is just a bunch of words, strung together by bureaucratic compromises. What matters is the actual state of the breeds working ability - that's where you find those characteristics that most people would relate to a confident dog, capable of "protecting" it's owner. I've seen the temperament section in the breed standards for many dogs, it's tiny in comparison to the sections on the appearance of the dog. A lot of the guidelines for temperament are filled with romanticised BS. The descriptions are often misleading and not properly explained. It's a lot easier to breed a dog for looks than it is for temperament and health. Looks are looks, but temperament is something that takes a lot of time to test for. There's been a significant drop in the working ability of the German Shepherd and what someone once wrote down on a piece of paper doesn't really amount to much if breeders are not breeding the way that they should. Furthermore, most working dogs would not conform to the standard. IPO standards have gotten lower to allow more dogs through.

*do YOU think that a GSD should at least try to protect their owner if there is a physical threat? *

No, I already gave you my view, you obviously aren't very observant my friend. Why would I have written about how I believe the very idea of people thinking their dog should "protect" them is flawed, If I thought my untrained dog should protect me???? Simple deduction

WHy should they? And what GSD are we talking about? It's basically split into two sub-breeds nowadays. Show lines have extremely weak nerves and temperament problems. So many people own one of those black and tan clones, I don't think they should be depending on their dog to protect them. Sure they may bark and show aggression, if this is your idea of protection then yes, they may potentially protect them by barking. But actually protecting them to the point of showing actual foward aggression and resilence? No, they simply lack the genetics. How many show lines do you see doing patrol work? end of discussion.

*And maybe a hint as to how you actually are involved in protection dog training?*

I have said numerous times I do not currently own a working dog and I never alluded to being involved in "protection dog training". I do read a lot and study these things like a second degree. My next pup comes soon and I will be entering him into IPO if he is suitable.

And you're saying your dogs protected you? I'd hate to say it but I don't think you have a good enough understanding of the drives associated with dogs to make that kind of statement with %100 certainty. How do you know your dog wasn't just protecting itself?. You have owners with dogs that let off a few defensive barks at a stranger or the postman, and they think, "wow my dog protected me", no, most likely you have a sharp dog with weak nerves, that postures very impressively. On top of that almost all dogs go into avoidance when threatened, it's just the smarter thing to do when pushed, so I'm sorry but I seriously doubt your claims (it's possible, but doubtful) that your dogs have "protected" you in any situation worthy of actually being called "protection", against a genuine and determined threat.

Good day sir.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

"I have said numerous times I do not currently own a working dog and I never alluded to being involved in "protection dog training". I do read a lot and study these things like a second degree. My next pup comes soon and I will be entering him into IPO if he is suitable.

And you're saying your dogs protected you? I'd hate to say it but I don't think you have a good enough understanding of the drives associated with dogs to make that kind of statement with %100 certainty. How do you know your dog wasn't just protecting itself?. *(Are you serious? - Unbelievable! he could have simply ran away - Heh! Heh!) * You have owners with dogs that let off a few defensive barks at a stranger or the postman, and they think, "wow my dog protected me", no, most likely you have a sharp dog with weak nerves, that postures very impressively. On top of that almost all dogs go into avoidance when threatened *(YOUR dog it seems likely that must be true, and I am sorry for you!)* , it's just the smarter thing to do when pushed, so I'm sorry but *I seriously doubt your claims (Ha! HA!)* (it's possible, but doubtful) that your dogs have "protected" you in any situation worthy of actually being called "protection", against a genuine and determined threat.

*Wish you were there - maybe the guy would have listened to you that night! And not gotten bitten!
*
Good day sir. "

*Your opinion - thanks so much for sharing. Maybe I should remember my dogs differently? Heh! Heh!*

*If you have never owned a "good", naturally protective GSD, I can see why you would naturally doubt the breeds ability. A male puppy that I owned (obtained a while ago from Herr Julius Due - don't worry if you don't recognize the name as I would not expect you to) who was the star of his ScH training club in protection at 9 mo (when we took him in to be tested!). NO training until then!*

*So whether you have ever had the privelge of owning a good example, some of us have.*

Thanks for an amusing reply. I can now certainly see why your handle is what it is. And I do apologize for thinking that you actually had some actual experience in protection dog training - sorry.

And also very sorry that you have obviously never had a GSD with the standard proper temperament that is described in the standard. 

No wonder you have such a low (uninformed perhaps) opinion and expectation of our breed.

Just your opinion based on your experience with your own dogs, I guess, maybe?

You have a nice day, now. And thanks again! 

I really do hope that some day you have the great experience of owning a GSD with the proper temperament (according to our standard).


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

*
I'm not sure why you would be curious about that, nobody "knows" if their dog will protect them and "thinking" it doesn't connect with reality, so your question is flawed and close ended. And in response to people "wanting" their dog to protect them, I gave my opinion of that question and the idea behind it, that it is foolish to depend on an untrained dog to defend them.

*Yes you can easily know but setting up scenarios. In the woods or at home or in your car or in your yard on the street etc.. After seeing an experienced pp trainer its not hard to figure out which dogs have it in them and which don't. By protecting i mean biting and fighting(going into fight drive) the man. It is rare but more common in gsds than other breeds except mals.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

pets4life said:


> *I'm not sure why you would be curious about that (why would you care why? - if you are not interested in my question - you could just ignore my post) , nobody "knows" if their dog will protect them and "thinking" it doesn't connect with reality, so your question is flawed and close ended (HEH! HEH! then ignore it!). And in response to people "wanting" their dog to protect them, I gave my opinion of that question and the idea behind it, that it is foolish to depend on an untrained dog to defend them.*
> 
> *Once again, I was simply asking if people here on the forum would want their dog to try to protect them if need be, NOT anything about the liklihood of a dog doing so - just whether they would want them to try! Now, can you understand what my original question was?*
> 
> ...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Codmaster- stop being rude. You're way off topic of this thread. If you want to talk about YOUR questions, start a new thread! I'm sure it will be an interesting topic of discussion.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Another issue that some of us have to worry about is how the law views "dangerous dogs" in our particular areas. In my location, if my dog bit someone, he'd be removed and PTS. If it was a neighbor's child that would be one thing, but if it's a rapist??!! What a ridiculous concept!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Interesting thoughts about dog parks.
> 
> I have an intact 5yo male GSD and we don't do dog parks. We tried a few times when he was a lot younger and he pretty quickly demonstrated that as he got a little more mature his was not a personality to be in a dog park. He is a very pushy and dominant dog and was friendly usually, but if another male dog showed "an attitude) (like him!), then it was not a lot of fun.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm trying to say. Some dogs don't belong at a dog park. A good owner will recognize that and not take their dog there. Then there are those people that don't care, or do believe they can control their dog, but they're few and far between. When I've seen them, they usually get ostracized very quickly at the dog park and don't come back again, once you have a reputation with the "regulars" the park could either be very fun or very boring.

I just hate the fact that on this forum we get only "bad time at dog park" stories. No one comes on to write about their good, boring, nothing happened but my dog played stories. It greatly skews the truth about dog parks. If you read all the dog park threads on the forum you would think that 95% of the time you walk into one, your dog gets attacked. In reality, its maybe 1% of the time or less that a big issue occurs. IF they were so problematic, and there were that many issues, most municipalities that run them would have shut them down years ago, instead, they open up more and more (I know Milwaukee County is working on another 2 right now).

We also get just ONE side of the story usually. In this case...there seems to only be one side, with an adult attacking a puppy. But in my experiences at the dog park, its very rare that dogs just randomly attack others. I've seen a lot of dominance displays that happen before a scrum and usually people don't read those dominance displays. My dog does them...I limit them as much as I can so that nothing reacts to him and then he shows them who's boss. But I've been at the park before when another dog just kept bothering and bothering him...barking in his face, not leaving him alone, and all the owner said was "he just wants to play." Well no...that dog's tail was straight up, it was clearly not a "play with me" bark, there were no "play bows" happening, and I just kept on having to get my dog away from his. Finally when my boy snapped and took that dog to the ground, the owner got all angry that the big mean GSD just did that to his lab...but if he would've come on this forum, the subject line would've been "another dog attacked my playful, wonderful, never do anything wrong in its life, puppy."

It's fine if YOU (general) don't like a dog park, it might just be the one by your area, or just that day was bad. But don't try to convince the world that they're terrible places that just put your dog in danger 100% of the time. Because that's simply not true. And it all depends on that dog, that area, that dog park, that day, ect. So telling people that their GSD will never do well in a dog park is just flat out lies, many GSDs are just fine being social with other dogs, just because YOURS isn't doesn't mean the rest of the world can't have fun.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

martemchik you still take your ddr dog to the dog park?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

*WHy should they? And what GSD are we talking about? It's basically split into two sub-breeds nowadays. Show lines have extremely weak nerves and temperament problems. So many people own one of those black and tan clones, I don't think they should be depending on their dog to protect them. Sure they may bark and show aggression, if this is your idea of protection then yes, they may potentially protect them by barking. But  actually protecting them to the point of showing actual foward aggression and resilence? No, they simply lack the genetics. How many show lines do you see doing patrol work? end of discussion*

I agree I would not expect a showline or other lines not bred for it to protect their handlers (not saying they all would not attack and bite for their handlers many still will). But there are many well bred working lines out there that I would expect it from. Training only adds to what is already there. I don't think you can take a dog that doesn't have it in them to protect for real and then turn it into a dog that will. JMHO. The dog should naturally have strong civil aggression. I am sure plenty of people here have adult working dogs that would love to take a chunk out of someone in a bad situation and are not trained. Good breeders know how to produce dogs like these and still they seem to be well balanced. There are plenty of good breeders on this forum. Sorry for being off topic I just wanted to respond to that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jag said:


> Codmaster- stop being rude. You're way off topic of this thread. If you want to talk about YOUR questions, start a new thread! I'm sure it will be an interesting topic of discussion.


 
Jag - *you* stop being rude. (I will try if you will!)






BTW - did you see the interest?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

What a thread!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Jag - *you* stop being rude. (I will try if you will!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not being rude. I don't think telling someone who is obviously being rude to others to stop is being rude. Start another thread. Please.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> That's what I'm trying to say. Some dogs don't belong at a dog park. A good owner will recognize that and not take their dog there. Then there are those people that don't care, or do believe they can control their dog, but they're few and far between. When I've seen them, they usually get ostracized very quickly at the dog park and don't come back again, once you have a reputation with the "regulars" the park could either be very fun or very boring.
> 
> I just hate the fact that on this forum we get only "bad time at dog park" stories. No one comes on to write about their good, boring, nothing happened but my dog played stories. It greatly skews the truth about dog parks. If you read all the dog park threads on the forum you would think that 95% of the time you walk into one, your dog gets attacked. In reality, its maybe 1% of the time or less that a big issue occurs. IF they were so problematic, and there were that many issues, most municipalities that run them would have shut them down years ago, instead, they open up more and more (I know Milwaukee County is working on another 2 right now).
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if you noticed the contradiction in your post. Thanks for the chuckle! I've seen posts from people who have taken their dogs to parks without issues on here. That woman from Kalamazoo goes to a private dog park, and I know she hasn't posted about her dogs being in fights there. I won't go to one because people are stupid with their dogs, I don't think mine will put up with it, and then he'll be blamed. Of course, I could be wrong. He may just blow it all off like he does at home and when he meets dogs on lead. I'm not willing to take the chance, though.


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## WolfieWolf (Oct 4, 2012)

Just for the record, it's true, I was telling my side of the story. It is difficult to do otherwise since we can only see through our own eyes. Other than caring for my own dog most, it would make no difference to me if my dog were on the top or on the bottom of an unwanted gang-up. It's not appropriate, and should my dog ever be on top I will be the first to call him off and if necessary take him off. The rules of civility and fair play apply to all, whether they are in power or not in power.

I have learned and gotten so much from this thread, and appreciate everyone's comments. I am sorry that my little question started a dispute of sorts. It almost seems as though the little feud of the dog park incident transferred itself to some comments on this thread. Please, I'm sure we all want to play nice and be kind to each other.


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