# Question for owners of more than one shepherd in a household



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Many members of this form have long histories of success with multiple dogs in the home. Do you have any specific approach to setting your dogs up for success……avoiding aggression/living in harmony/dealing with resource guarding, etc.? These "good habits" are probably just common sense approaches for you but for those of us who are traversing this for the first time….it's a big deal to avoid pitfalls and do everything we can to minimize the risks. I want my two boys to like each other and not ever fight. Is there anything I can do to help increase the odds of success? Right now we just supervise/supervise/supervise and we don't allow bad situations to occur. We intervene before their squabbles become serious. But I'm afraid as they mature, our best efforts may not be enough. They are almost 8 months old now. One is 80 pounds and one is 90 pounds. Thanks in advance for constructive input.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Wow, those are going to be huge dogs!

We adopted a young female in early december. So we have my male dutchie, 21 months old and the female somewhere around 2 or 3 years old. She was completely untrained and previously a stray. 

What works for us is a few things, having both crate trained to allow down time. It is awesome to have a safe backyard to throw them out into. Each dog has its own handler (for lack of a better word). This is something that Mike Ritland discusses in his book Team Dog. These dogs do not have multiple handlers but do listen to both of us (husband and myself). Each dog spends the day with their own handler. Each dog is trained and fed by their own handler. Because both can wrestle very energetically, the rule is no playing in the house. None. Didn't want to do that but had to be done. We are still working on that because they are like little kids who can't keep their hands off each other. We have had two fights, both we broke up. The last one I got my dutch shep by scooping him up from behind and the GSD backed off immediately and was shaken a bit. The dutch snarled at me and then he got in big trouble from me, not okay, never. The fight, which lasted maybe 5 seconds, sorted out the ranking. They have been great since. Both are spayed/neutered. 

Anyway, I would say keep and eye on rank seeking behavior and when you are around, stop it immediately in a firm and clear and no nonsense way. They have to see you as the leader but a fair, consistent, reasonable leader that they can trust.

Best to you.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have had multiple GSD many times in my house. Sometimes I foster and that number goes up to 3 at one time. I have been lucky in that I have only 1 time had a bad mix. But even with that, neither dog was ever injured. I was. But not the dogs. 

Right now I have 2 GSD and a lab. 2 female dogs(spayed both) and an intact male. 

I don't have rank issues, I don't have true guarding issues, I don't have fights, jealousy, squabbles, cause to be honest. They just aren't allowed. It's just not allowed. There is no room in my daily life to "manage" constantly, so I don't. But I find I don't need to. I know, no help. 

Whenever introducing a new dog, yes, I am on guard more. But each new dog is started off with the same rules. They may be leashed in the beginning, for control, but they are taught right away the rules of the house. No standing over another dog, no hyper focusing on a dog or cat, quiet in the crate, no pushing other dogs out if the way to get closer to me, respect for other animals "back off" signals. It's just how my house is run. 

I don't panic, I don't get hyper vigilant, I don't micromanage. I just set the rules. I correct when someone steps over the line and then move on and "forget". 

It's worked for me so far. I don't go into each day looking for trouble. I look at each day like everything is ok. Will this work for me forever. Probably not. But so far it has. 

All that said. I am aware when a "scurfuffle" is brewing. My oldest female can be the play police and gets pushy. My male can be a jerk. I am aware, I watch, I know. When one dog is pushing it. They get a time out. Or they get some training. I generally don't allow crazy play sessions in the house. But they can play. Just no running and jumping and 3 dog zoomies. I try to keep everything on an even keel. And I keep everything fair. I don't allow one dog to get away with a behavior and not the others.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

being littermates affects the relationship and the friction .


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Really its more instinct than anything. You just learn, over time, what is play and what is more. 

Keep in mind that everyone's style is a little different and what works for me won't necessarily work for you and what works with one dog won't necessarily work with another one. 

Find a trainer that has a style similar to yours or that you like and work with them. Tips on the internet can really send you in the wrong direction.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I have had multiple GSD many times in my house. Sometimes I foster and that number goes up to 3 at one time. I have been lucky in that I have only 1 time had a bad mix. But even with that, neither dog was ever injured. I was. But not the dogs.
> 
> Right now I have 2 GSD and a lab. 2 female dogs(spayed both) and an intact male.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. In all my years of dog ownership, I have had only two that had to be 'managed,' and one of those two is my current female Jade. She is very DA, and if this were even 10 years ago I would work to improve that. Today, with my sister to take care of and the fact that I just don't have the energy I had 10 years ago, managing her is easier. But as gsdsar said above I have set the rules, and even now I am aware if there is something brewing. When it happens I nip in in the bud, most of the time just a word is needed, sometimes it may take a body block if it has gone a bit too far. But they know the rules, and my DA girl is actually the most obedient of the two, and if I have to speak to her, she comes immediately to me as if to show me what a good girl she is, lol.
Overall, though, through the years things were the most peaceful with all males, and that included intact males (and even intact male wolfdogs). The females seemed to cause more issues.

Susan


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I know..just add a female and she will become the boss Just kidding!

My three are 3.5, 2.5, and 5 months. The oldest is a female and she does run the show. She expects peace and order. Every now and then I have to remind her that I'm the boss, she accepts this and moves on. Sometimes she talks to me. Her and Midnite are always talking to each other, he tries to get the last word in but always fails. They get along well. There has never been a fight amongst them. I think the youngest one is going to be alot like Robyn and they might butt heads later on. I watch their interactions. She has corrected him and he has learned. I Don't think it just happens, there will be signs and that is when you step in.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for sharing your experiences. You offered some helpful advice and reassurances. 

I do use their crates for timeouts when I feel things are beginning to escalate or if I think one needs a break from the other. I rarely use the crates as punishment (almost never) unless I need a break…then they both go in their crates with a kong for a little while). Still trying to keep everything positive.

We are also fortunate that we have a fenced back yard and a dog door so they can choose to be inside or in the garage or in the back yard. My husband travels about 20 days a month so we can't have separate handlers for each dog. He is home for most training classes and we rotate so both dogs are accustomed to training with both of us…..not sure if this is the best approach. I will read Team Dog by Mike Ritland (thanks for that).

Our boys run and play in the house. I don't mind the running but I do mind the noise level. They have learned to wrestle without making noise (which I think is hilarious). When I tell them to knock it off they just stop the noise….but keep playing…..I'm good with that.

When you said your dutch snarled at you and got in "big trouble" can you be more specific? What do you do? Our boys have never growled at us but they will occasionally growl at each other (related to a high-value toy/treat)…it's that warning to respect-the-space type of warning.

Thanks again for your help. I think we're doing pretty good so far (considering we have litter mates) but are worried about their behavior during the next several months as they mature.








DutchKarin said:


> Wow, those are going to be huge dogs!
> 
> We adopted a young female in early december. So we have my male dutchie, 21 months old and the female somewhere around 2 or 3 years old. She was completely untrained and previously a stray.
> 
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Pretty much do the same thing as gsdar. Whether it's my two in the house or
20 in the training yard I watch, I enforce the peace, and stuff works out. If a little scuffle is about to break out it isn't a crisis. I just step in matter of factly let the instigator know it isn't a good idea to try it again and I step back out again. If I can't watch them I crate them. They don't learn fighting is a valid option. 


In the house I don't allow play. I have two malinois. It escalates quickly and they condition to being idiots in the house super fast if it's allowed to fly. I wouldn't advise allowing it with gsd either, but there are some cases where it's probably no big deal.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Your response is actually quite helpful. When you say you just don't allow fights/jealousy, etc…..that tells me the dogs are capable of controlling their behavior as long as they know the rules and know you are the boss. I can do that! 

As I'm writing this I am just realizing one of my pups tends to hang out in the dining room/kitchen tonight instead of the living room where we are watching tv. The other pup is with us in the living room. My theory is Hawkeye (the pup in the LR with us) has set the rules and is dominating the space, not allowing Trapper to come in.. He isn't doing anything I can see that would give this msg but I think that's what's happening. I just leashed Hawkeye and had my husband hold him in the corner of the room. I tried to coax Trapper in the living room with treats. He is clearly intimated to enter the room…..finally came in the edge of the room but quickly retreated to the garage. I think Hawkeye is resource guarding us and Trapper is intimidated by Hawkeye (Trapper is larger and weighs more but Hawkeye seems to be the dominant of the two). Never even noticed this until tonight. They aren't fighting but Trapper is clearly anxious when Hawkeye is too close…..will try to sort this out tomorrow.
Thanks again for your help/insights.
btw….I try very hard to keep everything fair and even. A couple of months ago I purchased two large/comfy dog beds. Hawkeye quickly decided he owned both beds…..not sure how he did it except he just jumped into each bed. One bed is in the basement and one bed is upstairs in our bedroom. Sometimes my husband will sleep in the basement. He takes Trapper with him but Trapper refuses to sleep in that bed…seems he knows Hawkeye doesn't want him in the dog beds so he won't get in them…..even when Hawkeye isn't around.

Will think about this more tomorrow. Trainer comes to our home again on Mar 17th…can't come soon enough.
Thanks again.
Tammy



gsdsar said:


> I have had multiple GSD many times in my house. Sometimes I foster and that number goes up to 3 at one time. I have been lucky in that I have only 1 time had a bad mix. But even with that, neither dog was ever injured. I was. But not the dogs.
> 
> Right now I have 2 GSD and a lab. 2 female dogs(spayed both) and an intact male.
> 
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

From 1986 to 2005 we only had one dog at a time. Since then we've always had two, except for a couple months after Dena died before we got Halo, and they've always gotten along extremely well. I have no idea if we're doing everything right or it's pure blind luck, but I'm so grateful because it does make life a LOT easier! 

All of them have been acquired as puppies, Sneaker (1986) at 16 weeks old, Cassidy (2000) at 20 weeks, Dena (2004) and Keefer (2005) at 9 weeks, and Halo (2009) at 10 weeks old. It think it helped not only starting from scratch with a puppy each time, which gave me the opportunity to shape them from a fairly young age, and also adding a puppy to an older dog rather than trying to raise two puppies together or add an adult to another adult.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Your response is actually quite helpful. When you say you just don't allow fights/jealousy, etc…..that tells me the dogs are capable of controlling their behavior as long as they know the rules and know you are the boss. I can do that!


Only to a certain extent. There are just some dogs who want to kill each other. Who knows why it happens but when you get a pair like that all the rules and the leadership in the world won't change it.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

OK….is there an age where you can feel like you MAY BE out of the woods? We enjoy them so much right now. My husband isn't worried….just thinks they will be fine and we can handle anything. Maybe I read too much or spend too much time on this forum…but I think of all the terrible things that might happen in the future. Our boys have never acted like they want to kill each other….they seem to enjoy each other's company most of the time….but I worry it will change over night and they will become enemies. Our pet sitter (and her horse vet) take our boys to a nursing home every time we take them for a sleepover. She reassures me the boys listen well and are gentle with the residents. Her mom has alzheimers and had GSD's earlier in her life. Her mom thinks our boys are her dogs. My petsitter sends pics to me of my boys in her mom's bed at the nursing home. Also hear stories and see pics of our boys with other residents at the nursing home….they seem to enjoy that environment…so will be working on therapy dog training when they are old enough to take the classes (have to be a year old). btw….petsitter has all the liability…otherwise, would not let her take our pups to nursing home. 



shepherdmom said:


> Only to a certain extent. There are just some dogs who want to kill each other. Who knows why it happens but when you get a pair like that all the rules and the leadership in the world won't change it.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

If you truly think Hawkeye is resource guarding you I would not allow that to happen. That can/will get worse. I would teach a "to bed" and "stay" and see what happens when both are in the living room in a down stay. This, is something to keep and eye on.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It's good to be fair to both but they are individual dogs. Individual dogs that might not have the same personalities. Maybe the one just wants to be by himself? Maybe the other one prefers to be with you. There isn't anything wrong with that and if that's the case then forcing them to do what the other is doing is not being fair or letting them be them. Robyn enjoys being off in the other room and is often there just relaxing. She is more independent. Sometimes she chooses to be next to me and that is ok to. It's who she is. The other two GSDs are laying right next to me as I write this, she is in the other room. There is no fighting or resource guarding. I'm sure if I tried made her come in here she would humor me but she would still end up in the other room. Treat them fairly as individuals. Let them develope personalities. As they get older one might like playing ball and the other one might not. One might like treats one might not. They might just end up complete opposites and there is nothing wrong with that. The worse thing one can do is compare dogs(it's not fair to the dogs), they are all different and bring different things to the table.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

llombardo said:


> It's good to be fair to both but they are individual dogs. Individual dogs that might not have the same personalities. Maybe the one just wants to be by himself? Maybe the other one prefers to be with you. There isn't anything wrong with that and if that's the case then forcing them to do what the other is doing is not being fair or letting them be them. Robyn enjoys being off in the other room and is often there just relaxing. She is more independent. Sometimes she chooses to be next to me and that is ok to. It's who she is. The other two GSDs are laying right next to me as I write this, she is in the other room. There is no fighting or resource guarding. I'm sure if I tried made her come in here she would humor me but she would still end up in the other room. Treat them fairly as individuals. Let them develope personalities. As they get older one might like playing ball and the other one might not. One might like treats one might not. They might just end up complete opposites and there is nothing wrong with that. The worse thing one can do is compare dogs(it's not fair to the dogs), they are all different and bring different things to the table.


Point taken. They are different and I thinkTrapper just likes to be alone. He isn't as much of a velcro dog as Hawkeye but he is very sweet..just more independent. He disappears and we find him chilling in the garage….it's cooler out there. I was interpreting this as "feeling left out" or "lower on the pack order" kind of thing.
I've had dogs all my life but never two at a time…..maybe over thinking this whole thing. Thanks for taking the time to respond and for sharing your experiences with Robyn and your other dogs. This helps me understand the bigger picture.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Ive had three GSDs in our house and for 11 years had two,Lucky and Daisy. The boy/girl was in my opinion the easiest. Our next was three GSDs and two were female but litter mates and then our Lucky.It would be hard to generalize from my experience as the three were all seniors and two were littermates.Daisy and Lucky tussled at times but nothing serious and they were 3 years apart and rather opposites in personality.I think hust like anyone who lives together there will be tussles and disagreeements.Since they have grown up together I think they will have a deep bond. Thats just IMO.I do think making sure everyone gets their share of time needed is the biggest thing in handling a multiple dog household.IMO


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Many members of this form have long histories of success with multiple dogs in the home. Do you have any specific approach to setting your dogs up for success……avoiding aggression/living in harmony/dealing with resource guarding, etc.? These "good habits" are probably just common sense approaches for you but for those of us who are traversing this for the first time….it's a big deal to avoid pitfalls and do everything we can to minimize the risks. I want my two boys to like each other and not ever fight. Is there anything I can do to help increase the odds of success? Right now we just supervise/supervise/supervise and we don't allow bad situations to occur. We intervene before their squabbles become serious. But I'm afraid as they mature, our best efforts may not be enough. They are almost 8 months old now. One is 80 pounds and one is 90 pounds. Thanks in advance for constructive input.


 It's funny, when Sabi was alive I had 2-7 dogs in my house of varying ages and everyone got along. She wouldn't have it any other way, lol. I always take the approach that everything is mine to give or take away, the dogs know that and we have no issues. 
Having said that, once Sabi died Bud took an instant and ever lasting dislike to Shadow. I tried and tried, he hates her and will cross the yard to grab her by the head. So for the most part I separate them. Crate and rotate. For two years Bud played with Shadow, the day I came home without Sabi he grabbed Shadow by the head and tried to shake her.
Don't allow scuffles, step in and end it. I allow no playing in the house and if I have the dogs together, the toys get put away. I feed in their crates, and they are never unattended together. Any violation of the rules is dealt with quickly, most often the instigator gets kenneled immediately. I use basic obedience drills as a means to refocus, and reiterate my control.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Fascinating to me that Sabi kept the pack harmony. Your approach makes sense to me regarding no toys when dogs are together. I struggle with knowing which dog is instigator (related to squabble over toy) so am hesitant to kennel only one for fear of assigning blame to the wrong dog. I tolerate a little bit of rough play (as long as they aren't growling and both seem to be having fun). But if it escalates, I usually redirect with some training for both and I remove the toys for a while (without making a big deal of it). 
Thanks for your input. btw…when Sabi was alive, did you know she was the peace keeper of the pack? And I'm sorry Bud and Shadow don't get along…..can't understand what clicked with Bud after Sabi passed away…..again, fascinating pack dynamics.



Sabis mom said:


> It's funny, when Sabi was alive I had 2-7 dogs in my house of varying ages and everyone got along. She wouldn't have it any other way, lol. I always take the approach that everything is mine to give or take away, the dogs know that and we have no issues.
> Having said that, once Sabi died Bud took an instant and ever lasting dislike to Shadow. I tried and tried, he hates her and will cross the yard to grab her by the head. So for the most part I separate them. Crate and rotate. For two years Bud played with Shadow, the day I came home without Sabi he grabbed Shadow by the head and tried to shake her.
> Don't allow scuffles, step in and end it. I allow no playing in the house and if I have the dogs together, the toys get put away. I feed in their crates, and they are never unattended together. Any violation of the rules is dealt with quickly, most often the instigator gets kenneled immediately. I use basic obedience drills as a means to refocus, and reiterate my control.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Fascinating to me that Sabi kept the pack harmony. Your approach makes sense to me regarding no toys when dogs are together. I struggle with knowing which dog is instigator (related to squabble over toy) so am hesitant to kennel only one for fear of assigning blame to the wrong dog. I tolerate a little bit of rough play (as long as they aren't growling and both seem to be having fun). But if it escalates, I usually redirect with some training for both and I remove the toys for a while (without making a big deal of it).
> Thanks for your input. btw…when Sabi was alive, did you know she was the peace keeper of the pack? And I'm sorry Bud and Shadow don't get along…..can't understand what clicked with Bud after Sabi passed away…..again, fascinating pack dynamics.


 I have found that horseplay outside is mostly ok, in the house for some reason it escalates. Perhaps the lack of space but that's why I never allow it.
If I am not sure who started it everyone goes to their rooms, I'm nasty that way. They learn quick enough.
We always knew that Sabs was the Queen, I seldom saw her get nasty or mean but every animal in the house obeyed her rules. 
When I brought Bud home he was injured and traumatized. He was about 1 and Sabs was 2.5 or so. He bonded with her to the point where I used to joke that as long as the burglars didn't touch Sabi, he wouldn't care. When she died I thought I might lose him to. I always thought he was ok with other dogs, he isn't anymore. Everything he did was for her.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

It's hard to know what they are thinking. I have probably been to blame for not knowing what is in their minds. It's like When I got Jasira as a 10 week old puppy. The only dog I had left was my male 14 year old GSD, Dizan. I brought her in and set her down. ( He has always been dog aggressive.) He went into a crouch and started growling. Before I could grab Jas, she ran up to him and started licking him in the face. ( She had just been ripped away from her mom and brothers and sisters, thrown into a car, driven 12 hours, frightened. She saw another dog and was HAPPY.) Dizan backed up and looked at her. ( I remembered later that Dizan always loved puppies, thank god. ) They sniffed, laid down, and took a nap together. But that could have been nasty through MY ignorance, not either of their fault. After Dizan died, I got Xerxes as a puppy. They got along fine but their favorite thing was wrestling which is fine outside but, in the house, they were knocking stuff over and breaking things. I started locking one of them up so only one was out loose in the house at the same time. I HATED that. I get dogs to be with me not to lock them up. Thank GOD for my friend Bev, who is an extraordinary dog trainer, who helped me work it through in training them. They still try it but I can actually have them in the same room and sleep with me at night. I don't want my dogs locked up. I wanted them to be with me.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

First question I would ask you is are the dogs inside or outside dogs.
And how much time do you spend with your single first dog.
Also how does your current dog relate or accept other dogs.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> First question I would ask you is are the dogs inside or outside dogs.
> And how much time do you spend with your single first dog.
> Also how does your current dog relate or accept other dogs.


The dogs are both inside/outside. They have a dog door to the garage and another dog door from garage to fenced back yard. They are usually inside and almost never crated. They hang out with us. Sometimes we leave one or the other in the garage/outside area for a couple of hours. Only twice have we left them together in the garage/outside area for extended periods of time (once was for 24 hrs and once was for about 18 hrs). 

The dogs are littermates

The dogs have never shown aggression towards other dogs. We've limited their exposure to other dogs except for obedience classes and agility classes. They don't play with the other dogs in classes (but would if we would let them). They do not go to dog parks.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'd stop the dog doors. That's uncontrolled access, access that isn't earned. I'd still watch this and be inclined to crate and rotate. You will have more control without the dog doors.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> The dogs are both inside/outside. They have a dog door to the garage and another dog door from garage to fenced back yard. They are usually inside and almost never crated. They hang out with us. Sometimes we leave one or the other in the garage/outside area for a couple of hours. Only twice have we left them together in the garage/outside area for extended periods of time (once was for 24 hrs and once was for about 18 hrs).
> 
> The dogs are littermates
> 
> The dogs have never shown aggression towards other dogs. We've limited their exposure to other dogs except for obedience classes and agility classes. They don't play with the other dogs in classes (but would if we would let them). They do not go to dog parks.


You see you engage your dogs a lot. You do a lot of things with them.

I think your dog can be around a well selected second dog. I think it would maybe even make him happy. (Obviously anything can happen).

Just understand that dogs that are inside abide by different rules than when they unrestricted to play outside. One dog may cause the other dog to behave unpredictably. There is some chaos involved.

Basically what you did for your first dog, theoretically you need to do with the second dog. 

It is double the responsibility and a little bit more. You obviously know what you are doing just based on all the things you do.

Just don't expect them to behave together the way a single dog would behave alone. You need to work towards that.

Age of introduction of first dog will go a long way in making your life easier. If first dog gets it, you can work more on second dog. 

Since you allow them in the house you will need a certain level of obedience, that would be more than an outside dog. You will need to separate the dogs and do training with each dog, whilst the other dog is not there. Including maybe independent walks, etc. for each dog.

Also not a good idea to introduce a puppy to a very old dog that just wants piece and quiet.

I guess there are other approaches. But if you are a reward based guy you will need to take into account some of the extra time involved if you want to adhere to a dog that is obedient and engages to the standard you are looking for. (You do obedience and agility).


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> I'd stop the dog doors. That's uncontrolled access, access that isn't earned. I'd still watch this and be inclined to crate and rotate. You will have more control without the dog doors.


 All of this!

In my experience, littermates are more inclined to have issues. It's almost a natural progression. And I do not like dog doors. It gives my dogs the option of evading the rules, and teaches them that they can do what they please with or without my consent.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

We realize litter mates are at higher risk for developing problems (that's why I obsess over the details. I want to minimize their risks for problems. With that being said, I'm not sure what problems will be prevented by getting rid of the dog door option and increasing the control (and I'm just trying to understand….not trying to be obstinate).

We open and close the dog doors when it suits us. There are times we close them and don't let the dogs in the house and times we don't let them outside. They know we control the dog doors….does that make it any better? or should they never be allowed to use a dog door? Sometimes at night, Trapper will leave our bedroom and go sleep in the garage…..we think it's because he gets too hot and prefers the cooler floor in the garage. I just haven't seen them evading or disobeying any rules via the dog door.



Sabis mom said:


> All of this!
> 
> In my experience, littermates are more inclined to have issues. It's almost a natural progression. And I do not like dog doors. It gives my dogs the option of evading the rules, and teaches them that they can do what they please with or without my consent.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> OK….is there an age where you can feel like you MAY BE out of the woods?


 I myself tend to think the 12 month to 18 month zone is the trouble area.

Leerburgh says 36 months so there is that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> We realize litter mates are at higher risk for developing problems (that's why I obsess over the details. I want to minimize their risks for problems. With that being said, I'm not sure what problems will be prevented by getting rid of the dog door option and increasing the control (and I'm just trying to understand….not trying to be obstinate).
> 
> We open and close the dog doors when it suits us. There are times we close them and don't let the dogs in the house and times we don't let them outside. They know we control the dog doors….does that make it any better? or should they never be allowed to use a dog door? Sometimes at night, Trapper will leave our bedroom and go sleep in the garage…..we think it's because he gets too hot and prefers the cooler floor in the garage. I just haven't seen them evading or disobeying any rules via the dog door.


 I am not a trainer, I only have my experience to rely on. Please don't think I'm an expert.
In my experience dog doors can be problematic because they allow the dogs options you would not always give them. If you are confident that they understand the _privilege_ then that's fine.
I would be very cautious about leaving them unattended together. I think you said they were about a year old? In a few months they're going to hit butthead stage with a vengeance, followed shortly by 'I'm a real man' stage. Neutering, I think you said one of them was done already? Don't count on that helping, your dogs still possess personalities. Don't despair, you have males and I have yet to meet a male who can't be coaxed to acceptable behavior. If they were bitches, this would be a different conversation.
And I know I said my male was an issue. He isn't really. I could work on it, but Shadow has enough issues and Bud is old and entitled to peace. If he chooses to spend his days alone, missing his friend, he has earned that right.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I have five dogs in the house, three gsds. Gsd Cajun is 8yo, gsd Eli is 5yo, gsd Riot is 9 mo, border collie mutt Evie is 6yo and pit bull Sweetie is 12-14yo. Gsds are all intact. 
Cajun entered the picture at 3yo when Eli was 6mo. Caj was a rescue, almost dead when I got him and I really feel he went through a second puppy hood; had to be housebroken, learn to play with toys, went through a mouthy stage. So it was like Eli and Cajun were both six months old. They got along beautifully for about six months, they slept together, wrestled together, were best buds. When they started to fight it was serious, each wanted to kill the other. I worked hard with them and they are fine together but under strict supervision. I believe both want the other dead. But they know they aren't allowed to fight and accept that, and so long as I keep them settled they are fine. I can leave them unsupervised with only a baby gate between them.
Most issues are when I am home, Cajun stimulates really easily and gets running around and Eli starts resource guarding and playing fun police. But, knock on wood, I haven't had a fight between them in 2-3 years.
I have rules that I enforce and I do a LOT of obedience work with my dogs. I have zero issues with my girls and all dogs listen to commands instantly so that plays a huge role in me being able to stop something before it escalates. 
Toys and bones are left out at all times. I feed them together in the same room, they can all have chewies in the same room. I NEVER allow a dog to take a toy or chewie from another dog, they are not allowed to bother another dog while it is eating, none of them are allowed to pick up food we might drop on the floor. Resource guarding is not tolerated at all and if the dog won't stop it gets put in its kennel. 
When I take them out to play hard like fetch or another dog comes over, I don't run the boys together. They are likely to get offended with each other and it is just easier to run them separate. I do leash walk them a lot together though, or run them with the four wheeler and they are side mates when hooked up to the dog sled. I try to do as much as I can with them to create team work.
This was probably pretty scattered, sorry lol. It takes some diligence but my dogs know their places in the pack and know what is expected of them so it works. I have three females who, based on breeds, should never get along and two intact male gsds and everyone lives in relative harmony.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> OK….is there an age where you can feel like you MAY BE out of the woods?


Gosh I don't know. My boys would have occasional dust ups but never anything serious right up until they became seniors. I imagine once they are adults you will know The two females that wanted to kill each other, were not siblings. Once the rescued dog became comfortable with us and with our home is when the trouble started. She just one day decided the other dog had to die. From that point on they could never be together.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It's good that you are vigilant and it sounds you are on top of things. Look for the first minimal red flag, like a stare or when you think their play is getting too rough. Immediately break it up by sending both dogs into a time out or call them to you and practice obedience. Mantain the NILIF for both. And yes, no time unsupervised in the yard together. Teach them the emergency down so you can stop them as soon as they need to.
Dog doors can cause over crowding, which can escalate into a fight or one dog won't let the other go in or out, so I wold stop the dog door. Feed them out of each others sight. Avoid having the dogs in the same class. I am not sure what your plans are for neutering. If you neuter the lowest in rank one, you will increase the difference in ranks between them, which is what you want.
A good little book to read: Feeling Outnumbered? by Patricia McConnell.
But don't forget to enjoy the boys as well.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Guess I'll buckle my seat belt and hang on for the next few years, training, training, training and praying.
Thanks!



Chip18 said:


> I myself tend to think the 12 month to 18 month zone is the trouble area.
> 
> Leerburgh says 36 months so there is that.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> It's good that you are vigilant and it sounds you are on top of things. Look for the first minimal red flag, like a stare or when you think their play is getting too rough. Immediately break it up by sending both dogs into a time out or call them to you and practice obedience. Mantain the NILIF for both. And yes, no time unsupervised in the yard together. Teach them the emergency down so you can stop them as soon as they need to.
> Dog doors can cause over crowding, which can escalate into a fight or one dog won't let the other go in or out, so I wold stop the dog door. Feed them out of each others sight. Avoid having the dogs in the same class. I am not sure what your plans are for neutering. If you neuter the lowest in rank one, you will increase the difference in ranks between them, which is what you want.
> A good little book to read: Feeling Outnumbered? by Patricia McConnell.
> But don't forget to enjoy the boys as well.


Thanks for suggestions. 
_No rough play allowed:_ check
_No unsupervised time in the yard together:_ check
_Emergency down_: check (they enjoy this one and are good at it…not proofed well however)
_Feed out of each other's sight_: check (they respect each other's food bowls and won't linger/hoover around the other's bowl if one finishes first….he just quietly walks behind slower dog and gets out of his way until he's finished eating). No food guarding at this point in time.
_Dog door_: Still using with caution. will consider
_Training classes_: Only class dogs are in together is agility (two handlers)…never in same obedience classes. 

Enjoying them immensely and can't wait for springtime so we can spend more time outside. Have lots of work to do on distracted recalls outside.
Thanks for book suggestion. Have ordered it and look forward to reading it.
Thanks again!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Gosh I don't know. My boys would have occasional dust ups but never anything serious right up until they became seniors. I imagine once they are adults you will know The two females that wanted to kill each other, were not siblings. Once the rescued dog became comfortable with us and with our home is when the trouble started. She just one day decided the other dog had to die. From that point on they could never be together.


Thanks! Previously, I thought once our boys were 3-4 years old we would get another puppy……now I'm just hopeful for litter mates who will get along and do well together…not sure we would want to take the chance on the dynamics of brining in a 3rd.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Mikelia said:


> I have five dogs in the house, three gsds. Gsd Cajun is 8yo, gsd Eli is 5yo, gsd Riot is 9 mo, border collie mutt Evie is 6yo and pit bull Sweetie is 12-14yo. Gsds are all intact.
> Cajun entered the picture at 3yo when Eli was 6mo. Caj was a rescue, almost dead when I got him and I really feel he went through a second puppy hood; had to be housebroken, learn to play with toys, went through a mouthy stage. So it was like Eli and Cajun were both six months old. They got along beautifully for about six months, they slept together, wrestled together, were best buds. When they started to fight it was serious, each wanted to kill the other. I worked hard with them and they are fine together but under strict supervision. I believe both want the other dead. But they know they aren't allowed to fight and accept that, and so long as I keep them settled they are fine. I can leave them unsupervised with only a baby gate between them.
> Most issues are when I am home, Cajun stimulates really easily and gets running around and Eli starts resource guarding and playing fun police. But, knock on wood, I haven't had a fight between them in 2-3 years.
> I have rules that I enforce and I do a LOT of obedience work with my dogs. I have zero issues with my girls and all dogs listen to commands instantly so that plays a huge role in me being able to stop something before it escalates.
> ...


WOW! What a wonderfully full household! Lots of good advice in your post and will take it. Thanks! 
I can see running them with the 4-wheeler this summer (think they would enjoy that). Am also interested in dog sledding with them. How many dogs do you use on your team? We've been dogsledding once and were amazed with the dynamics between the dogs…..all good as long as they were running/pulling but whenever we stopped all **** broke loose. Had to get off the sled and redirect, redirect, praise, pet, talk to the troublemakers and distract them from their side mates. Could we run a two-dog team with a sled? We live in a pretty good place for dogsledding. I think our boys would absolutely LIVE to Pull a sled….they just have that personality. This winter, on trash day, I take one outside, loosely wrap his leash to a big trash can and guide the can as he "pulls" it to the road. Then I repeat with the other dog for the recycle can. After the cans are emptied, I do the same thing…have only been doing this a few weeks but the dogs love it and know where to take the cans…also helpful after a big snow as the cans get really heavy for me. Thanks again for your suggestions!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Thanks! Previously, I thought once our boys were 3-4 years old we would get another puppy……now I'm just hopeful for litter mates who will get along and do well together…not sure we would want to take the chance on the dynamics of brining in a 3rd.


It's a balancing act that is for sure. Its hard to have two so close together because you lose them at near the same time as well. When your boys are older adults but not seniors they might enjoy you bringing in a female. You never know. The best thing to do is to work with a breeder or rescue that will do a home visit so you can see how everyone acts together.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Thanks! Previously, I thought once our boys were 3-4 years old we would get another puppy……now I'm just hopeful for litter mates who will get along and do well together…not sure we would want to take the chance on the dynamics of brining in a 3rd.


Two dogs are a pair three dogs are a pack!

I read that somewhere?

Degree of difficulty depends on dog number three...figured that out first hand! 

Boxers and Pitts...most dogs of Molossler world = low rank drive (my speciality)

GSD = not so much

What is Rank Drive what does a high Rank drive dog mean??? = School of hard knocks!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Two dogs are a pair three dogs are a pack!
> 
> I read that somewhere?
> 
> ...


Do you have a link or something explaining this Rank drive? I am curious. You have mentioned it before. I've had GSD's, Akita, Great Dane etc... and I've never heard it mentioned. I would have to say the Great Dane was the pushiest dog I've ever had.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Someone on here posted it awhile ago, part two under drives:
(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )

On the K9 dog sites it's mentioned alot, in a working dog it's an asset it can give you a "harder" working dog. In a family pet..yesh not so much!

Rocky kinda fell through the cracks! Well he has "Wobblers" so...he'll make someone a nice pet...opps!!!

But hey he did find the right home! He made me a better trainer in the long run!


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Can we see hawkeye and trapper latest pics pls ? lots of them  Time flies... i remember when you first told everyone you were gonna get 2 siblings at one time and now they are 8 months old already.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Someone on here posted it awhile ago, part two under drives:
> (Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


Thanks. Interesting read. I'm not sure that I agree that most shepherds are a rank drive dog. I've had an aussie mix and a great dane who both showed more "rank" drive the way it was explained in that article. My sheps never challenged me. I had a couple that were natural leaders but they always looked to the humans for direction.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Thanks. Interesting read. I'm not sure that I agree that most shepherds are a rank drive dog. I've had an aussie mix and a great dane who both showed more "rank" drive the way it was explained in that article. My sheps never challenged me. I had a couple that were natural leaders but they always looked to the humans for direction.


This is related to the topic at hand so... 

What you just said is what most of us "pet people" (I use that with pride myself) tend to think and that is the trap! 

Had Rocky ever challenged me, it would have been dealt with on the spot! Pretty sure that is also the case with the OP? And the owner of the French Bull dog shaking GSD, that was talked about recently, she never mentioned her dog giving her a challenge.

If you get the first part right they know who is charge of the household! They don't challenge "you" as I said that's the trap!

But the dog pack also has a number one! And a high rank drive, dominant dog...wants that spot! GSD's are high rank drive dogs but not all are dominate,if you don't have that most likely you won't have a problem.

I seem to have a knack for finding Dominant males and balanced females. I lived with both and the difference was clear to see, my Dominant male had to be managed my balanced Boxer was a piece of cake.

My best example was a group run with four dogs, Dominant male Gunther and a Dominant female Queenslands heeler Molly and my balanced Boxer and Molly's balanced Aussie buddy Dillon.

After initial intros which went fine, 5 minutes into the walk care to guess which two were having a problem...D+D male v female the other two never an issue.

Grabbed both offenders and told them to knock it off! Problem solved but they did not live together, those two would not have been a pleasant mix to live with.

Great Dane... I don't believe those are high drive dogs but I have heard that these days they tend to be fragile and skittish and in my book Aussies are PIA's but they are highly trainable. But they could both have been dominant dogs and that would have been the source of your problem??

Breeders and the pro trainers would be able to speak better on the subject, my conclusions are from the handful of dogs, I have first hand experience 
with.

So if I got something off feel free to correct.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> This is related to the topic at hand so...
> 
> What you just said is what most of us "pet people" (I use that with pride myself) tend to think and that is the trap!
> 
> ...


All my GSD's have been with a pack. Both Buddy and Shadow were leaders but they lived in harmony. In fact I would have and did say Buddy was submissive until after his brother died.... Then I found out he really was a leader. I kind of felt bad he had taken the second place all those years, but then he never seemed to mind. The were both leaders but neither had to be dominate both lived with the little aussie mix as boss for many years. 

The Aussie mix was just in general a mess. A little girl I had rescued from a hoarding situation in the desert. She would guard a water bowl. She always had to be the top dog. It didn't matter that the GSD's were twice her size. They boys pretty much humored her and let her think she was boss. 

The Great Dane was a different situation and my first pack. We were young and dumb and had no idea that bringing her in might cause problems. We had never had a problem before. There was no compromise with that Great Dane. She not only wanted top dog spot but any other female dog had to die. Luckily we lived on a 10 acre property that had once held racing greyhounds. We had plenty of kennels with sturdy tall fences and nice dog houses. We were able to successfully rotate the dogs so that they were never ever together. There are days when I wish we still had that property it was the perfect set up for dogs and other animals. I want that property with my current house on it. LOL


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> Can we see hawkeye and trapper latest pics pls ? lots of them  Time flies... i remember when you first told everyone you were gonna get 2 siblings at one time and now they are 8 months old already.


Hope these upload. Not much time for pics but here are a couple.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)




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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)




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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wow hard to believe those are the guys causing all the drama!??


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Wow hard to believe those are the guys causing all the drama!??



Ha, ha, we tend to take pictures when they are on their best behavior. You must be doing well with them. They look happy and healthy and beautiful too!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jake and Elwood said:


>


Too sweet! What did you put in their food?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


>


Awe makes me miss my boys so much. 

Old photo from 2006 










and another one from when they were pups.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Not multiple shepherds, but we have been a multi dog family for many years including 4 females at a time. I'll also echo what gsdsar said about basic management/structure/boundaries. Basically no nonsense allowed, no resource guarding, no bickering, no bullying etc. Dogs are fed separately and given high value treats separately. I have two that I always leave out together, but the GSD and the little dog are always separated when not watched. I would not have your boys out and about unsupervised, inside or outside. We all play fetch together with each dog having their own ball. Toys out around the house are a non-issue, and I never allow the dogs to take each other's toys. Another imporant part of having a peaceful house IMO is making sure the dogs are getting enough mental and physical stimulation - a tired dog is a good dog, bored dogs get into trouble.

I wish you the best of luck with your boys. They are very handsome, and you are doing very good work with them. All dogs should be so loved


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Too sweet! What did you put in their food?


We are fortunate they do have such sweet personalities. 
They eat Orijen with a little "Fresh Pet Vital. We add a little unsalted chicken broth, an occas. scrambled egg, and an occas. tbsp of tuna in oil. Also add coconut oil to their food. What I'd LIKE to give them occasionally (like every evening) is a shot of something stronger……..LOL….but wouldn't ever seriously do that. Instead, they get a large tbsp of vanilla ice cream most nights after I take off their collars and give them a little rub down. They seem to like that little routine.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for sharing your environment, experience, tips, and suggestions. Also, thanks for the compliment. I think our boys are doing pretty well overall and all the credit goes to our trainers and to the members of this forum who have guided me and unselfishly offered recommendations/guidance, as well as sharing personal experiences. I have come to this forum every single day since before our pups were born, to get answers. I will continue to read daily and ask questions when I can't find the answers in a previous post.
Thank you all!



osito23 said:


> Not multiple shepherds, but we have been a multi dog family for many years including 4 females at a time. I'll also echo what gsdsar said about basic management/structure/boundaries. Basically no nonsense allowed, no resource guarding, no bickering, no bullying etc. Dogs are fed separately and given high value treats separately. I have two that I always leave out together, but the GSD and the little dog are always separated when not watched. I would not have your boys out and about unsupervised, inside or outside. We all play fetch together with each dog having their own ball. Toys out around the house are a non-issue, and I never allow the dogs to take each other's toys. Another imporant part of having a peaceful house IMO is making sure the dogs are getting enough mental and physical stimulation - a tired dog is a good dog, bored dogs get into trouble.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck with your boys. They are very handsome, and you are doing very good work with them. All dogs should be so loved


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