# WGSL dogs are IPO sport dogs, right?



## Solamar

First, I apologize for some of the goofy questions I ask. :nerd:

In several recent threads people have asked about prospective breeding's or puppies for IPO sports use. They supply links to the pedigrees which are WGSL and the overwhelming response is something like "those are show line dogs, look for working line for IPO sports".

When I look at the posted pedigrees I see WGSL dogs going back multiple generations with SCH2 and SCH3 titles.

Isn't WGSL dogs exactly what Shutzhund and IPO sports were created for? Proving the quality of the dog to ensure only the best examples are bred?


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## Steve Strom

Because passing is based on points, its a matter of not losing too many. You can hang on to those 70 out of 100 for different reasons. If you get a chance to see some larger trials in person, you'll see the differences in the actual dogs, not just show line vs working line, but all dogs.


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## Solamar

Steve Strom said:


> Because passing is based on points, its a matter of not losing too many. You can hang on to those 70 out of 100 for different reasons. If you get a chance to see some larger trials in person, you'll see the differences in the actual dogs, not just show line vs working line, but all dogs.



So if I'm a breeder I can use the sport to "prove" my dogs by gaining titles at a 70 point score?

But, if I enjoy the sport for itself and want to be competitive (working toward that 100 Pt run) there are better options than a typical WGSL?

Close?


(I just checked and there is a IPO trial coming up in December near me, looking forward to going!)


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## kimbale

It's about the dogs, not the lines. There are some exceptional working pedigrees in WGSL dogs, however the unfortunate truth is that very few WGSL breeders make developing a high quality working pedigree a priority. I know several WGSL breeders who breed for working capability, and I have a dog from one of these breeders and he is proving himself already at 9 months. He was bred for tracking, sire has his FH as does the Bad-Boll dog he was linebred on, and the first 3 generations contain either IPO3 or IPO2 dogs.

Sadly, there are many WGSL breeders out there who do not put pedigrees like this together and breed moreso for looks than for anything else. You have to do your research on pedigrees and find those breeders who are committed to breeding well-tempered working dogs that also rank in conformation. They're out there, and when you find them you can see it in their dogs.


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## Steve Strom

People can point to this or that and claim it proves whatever they want. The dogs don't lie. A score is one piece. But you have to look at the total dog. In general, a SL is not going to have the aggression of a WL. But you're going to find SL's that track like nobody's business and are very biddable. Go see some trials and see why the different dogs lose the points they did, and a few things will make more sense.


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## Solamar

kimbale said:


> There are some exceptional working pedigrees in WGSL dogs, however the unfortunate truth is that very few WGSL breeders make developing a high quality working pedigree a priority. I know several WGSL breeders who breed for working capability, and I have a dog from one of these breeders and he is proving himself already at 9 months. He was bred for tracking, sire has his FH as does the Bad-Boll dog he was linebred on, and the first 3 generations contain either IPO3 or IPO2 dogs.


If a breeder titles all their dogs to IPO2 and IPO3 do they necessarily meet the above description?



kimbale said:


> Sadly, there are many WGSL breeders out there who do not put pedigrees like this together and breed moreso for looks than for anything else.


And these breeders do not title at all but breed for specific aesthetic characteristics?

Or is it really not that black and white?


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## Chip Blasiole

WGSL are show line dogs, not working line dogs. They are required to have a working title in order to be bred with papers, but they are not selected for their working ability. They are selected for their physical appearance, such as coat color (almost all are black and rad, shoulder assembly angulation, correct proportion of leg and body depth to total height at withers, correct heads, balanced, extended trot, correct hocks, pasterns and croup, etc. The breed was originally a herding dog and a herding title can still qualify as a working title instead of an IPO title. The original thinking about structure was that is would allow the dog to work in the fields herding all day, moving as efficiently as possible, conserving the dog's energy. But over time, it all just morphed into another beauty contest that has very little to do with a dog's working ability. The true herding lines are all but gone and the old breeders of the true herding lines were much more concerned with mental traits such as genetic obedience than physical traits. If you are primarily selecting for physical appearance, you will ( and have) lose working ability. IPO is really not much of a breed suitability test anymore. Just look at all the high lines with IPO titles and then look to see how many of them are actually working as military and police dogs, which the founder shifted the main purpose of the breed to after times changed and herding increasingly faded away. There are some WGSL dogs that can work, but they are definitely in the minority. It is hard enough to find a healthy working line GSD that can excel at real work. True working dogs are generally not bred for looks. Consider the Malinois. Breeders outcross to different breeds to bring in vigor, their drive is not diluted to provide pets to a pet market. There is a lot of variability in structure based on different country's lines. There are still some very good GSDs out there with great working ability, but IMO, you will not find them among the WGSL's. And it is not really about points. Judges give points and their biases effect scoring. I heard a judge from Germany at a trial say, "The working dog people think a dog has to be ugly to work well." He was clearly a showline judge.


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## kimbale

It's not that black and white. Even if a dog carries an IPO3 title, you should still research the dog and understand where and how the title was obtained. I was just using the IPO3/IPO2 example for the front 3 generations as an example of what I was looking for. That said, there were also specific dogs that I wanted to see in these generations because I knew that they had produced quality working dogs in the past. 

Who the grandparents were and who the parents were, were important and I wanted to see them work. If not in person (which was a bit impossible for one of the dogs considering he is a 2x VA champion) then I wanted to see videos and see their progeny work. I also wanted to know why certain dogs were picked for linebreeding in my dog and what characteristics were expected, and also did research on those dogs. 

You have to research the dogs. The recommendation of going out to a club or a show is a good one. There are a lot of Regional Sieger shows going on right now. Go visit one and watch the working trials and talk to breeders about their dogs and what they look for a and why. There just aren't that many good WGSL breeders who breed for working capacity left in the industry. It takes a lot of researching and work on your part to find them.


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## egwinjr

ill chime in since I started the thread you are referring to, 

from what ive seen is that WL dogs do in fact have a more noticeable drive and tenacity to them, BUT I have also watched SL dogs do the exact things I'm looking for. I'm likely still leaning heavily to the SL dogs I had posted in that original thread. the breeder seems very intent on how she pushes for her dogs to be avid performers in the working aspect as well as sound temperament in the home setting and that's what I want. if I get the joy of having a long coated dog with that then its a home run for me because personally that's my favorite. 

that said if I do end up with one of these pups and I do ipo work only to find the dog is a limiting factor to my ability to progress in the sport then at that time ill consider a true WL dog. I assume I wouldn't have that issue though for a couple years anyway based on the time id be getting a pup next year, and frankly how new I personally am to this sport as well. I have gobs to learn still before I worry about making regional or national level success. By that time ill have more room in the house hold for another dog if I choose. 

either way I go SL or WL ill be sure to document the journey here. So far this place has already been a huge help just by helping me avoid shady breeders


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## carmspack

Chip Blasiole said:


> WGSL are show line dogs, not working line dogs. They are required to have a working title in order to be bred with papers, but they are not selected for their working ability. They are selected for their physical appearance, such as coat color (almost all are black and rad, shoulder assembly angulation, correct proportion of leg and body depth to total height at withers, correct heads, balanced, extended trot, correct hocks, pasterns and croup, etc. The breed was originally a herding dog and a herding title can still qualify as a working title instead of an IPO title. The original thinking about structure was that is would allow the dog to work in the fields herding all day, moving as efficiently as possible, conserving the dog's energy. But over time, it all just morphed into another beauty contest that has very little to do with a dog's working ability. The true herding lines are all but gone and the old breeders of the true herding lines were much more concerned with mental traits such as genetic obedience than physical traits. If you are primarily selecting for physical appearance, you will ( and have) lose working ability. IPO is really not much of a breed suitability test anymore. Just look at all the high lines with IPO titles and then look to see how many of them are actually working as military and police dogs, which the founder shifted the main purpose of the breed to after times changed and herding increasingly faded away. There are some WGSL dogs that can work, but they are definitely in the minority. It is hard enough to find a healthy working line GSD that can excel at real work. True working dogs are generally not bred for looks. Consider the Malinois. Breeders outcross to different breeds to bring in vigor, their drive is not diluted to provide pets to a pet market. There is a lot of variability in structure based on different country's lines. There are still some very good GSDs out there with great working ability, but IMO, you will not find them among the WGSL's. And it is not really about points. Judges give points and their biases effect scoring. I heard a judge from Germany at a trial say, "The working dog people think a dog has to be ugly to work well." He was clearly a showline judge.



wow - that says it ALL.

splamar have a look at the ice-berg breeders thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## Solamar

Chip Blasiole said:


> WGSL are show line dogs, not working line dogs. They are required to have a working title in order to be bred with papers, but they are not selected for their working ability. They are selected for their physical appearance, such as coat color (almost all are black and rad, shoulder assembly angulation, correct proportion of leg and body depth to total height at withers, correct heads, balanced, extended trot, correct hocks, pasterns and croup, etc. The breed was originally a herding dog and a herding title can still qualify as a working title instead of an IPO title. The original thinking about structure was that is would allow the dog to work in the fields herding all day, moving as efficiently as possible, conserving the dog's energy. But over time, it all just morphed into another beauty contest that has very little to do with a dog's working ability. The true herding lines are all but gone and the old breeders of the true herding lines were much more concerned with mental traits such as genetic obedience than physical traits. If you are primarily selecting for physical appearance, you will ( and have) lose working ability. IPO is really not much of a breed suitability test anymore. Just look at all the high lines with IPO titles and then look to see how many of them are actually working as military and police dogs, which the founder shifted the main purpose of the breed to after times changed and herding increasingly faded away. There are some WGSL dogs that can work, but they are definitely in the minority. It is hard enough to find a healthy working line GSD that can excel at real work. True working dogs are generally not bred for looks. Consider the Malinois. Breeders outcross to different breeds to bring in vigor, their drive is not diluted to provide pets to a pet market. There is a lot of variability in structure based on different country's lines. There are still some very good GSDs out there with great working ability, but IMO, you will not find them among the WGSL's. And it is not really about points. Judges give points and their biases effect scoring. I heard a judge from Germany at a trial say, "The working dog people think a dog has to be ugly to work well." He was clearly a showline judge.


Yes, this!

Isn't IPO the "Show" that WGSL are being bred for? If IPO judges favored working line traits, then wouldn't the WGSL move in that direction?

I believe that I understand working lines. If I wanted a PPD, police dog, S&R, herding etc I'd be looking for a solid working line breeder.

But if IPO is your game shouldn't WGSL be your starting point? Think I'm missing something....


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## Ken Clean-Air System

No, the show that show lines are bred, primarily, for is the show ring. Sieger in Germany, AKC shows like Westminster in the USA. In Germany, even a show dog is required to earn a working title to receive breeding papers.

In almost all cases, the truly competitive dogs in IPO, especially at high levels, are working lines.


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## Sunsilver

Yes, you are missing something.

Back in the 1970's due to politics in the SV, and rise of the Martin Brothers and their kennels, a split began to take place between working line dogs and show line. Now, they are almost two separate breeds.

Show line breeders want their dogs to to well in the Bundessieger Zuchtshau,the annual sieger show. 

Working line breeders want to do well in the annuall WUSV competition.

Here are the 2017 winners of the Sieger show, and the WUSV world championship:
VA 1, Gary von Huhnegrab










V2 BSP 2017, V1 WUSV 2017 Debby vom Eisernen Kreuz 

These are two very different dogs, bred for different purposes. The Sieger show is mostly judged by structure, and the dog's ability to look good while trotting as fast as possible around the ring. Yes, there is a performance test, but the judge that does the final placing never sees it. Many of these dogs do poorly in the test but still get good placings in the standings. The WUSV championship is judged solely on the dog's performance in tracking, obedience and protection, as is any 1PO competition.

Here's a report on the 2010 Sieger show by one of Holland's top breeders of working dogs, Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook Kennels:



> The founder of our breed did make this statement for nothing:
> “Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog for I have struggled all my life for that aim!”
> Many developments are naturally subject to social changes, but the principle has to be maintained or better said, the goal has to remain the same. And that has to be thought about carefully.
> 
> Why this prelude you may ask?
> Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection. Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung. I doubt that the number of failures had ever been that high. My information showed that protection may have been judged marginally harder but not significantly harder than in years past. I was even told that had the helper work been consistent for all the dogs there would have been even more failures.
> 
> There were glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and those from show lines. OK, that may not be such a big deal, but it clearly accentuates how big the differences are.
> 
> Only a few years ago I myself was a witness to the way protection was handled at the “Hauptzuchtschau”. I came to the conclusion that some assessments were at the very bottom of the rating “pronounced”, some even below. Dogs who came off the sleeve during the attack on handler still got a rating high enough to remain in the competition. In individual cases apparently the manner in which the dogs prevented the attack (energetic gripping is desired) was of secondary importance. Obviously some things had improved somewhat, but it has to be said. It appears as if the top people in the SV, who got there due to political circumstance, chose this result, and everyone seems OK with that. One would think based on that that the general public is also satisfied with the result! Keep going that way.
> 
> In my opinion, this can never be the right solution. The movement in this direction already became apparent years ago. But it is exactly like judging one’s own affairs, it is rejected in society and politically and no significant improvement can be brought about.


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## Solamar

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> No, the show that show lines are bred, primarily, for is the show ring. Sieger in Germany, AKC shows like Westminster in the USA. In Germany, even a show dog is required to earn a working title to receive breeding papers.
> 
> In almost all cases, the truly competitive dogs in IPO, especially at high levels, are working lines.



This is what I was missing!

Thank you!:grin2::grin2:


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## Solamar

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, you are missing something.
> 
> Back in the 1970's due to politics in the SV, and rise of the Martin Brothers and their kennels, a split began to take place between working line dogs and show line. Now, they are almost two separate breeds.
> 
> Show line breeders want their dogs to to well in the Bundessieger Zuchtshau,the annual sieger show.
> 
> Working line breeders want to do well in the annuall WUSV competition.
> 
> Here are the 2017 winners of the Sieger show, and the WUSV world championship:



I get it now. Thank you all for puting up with me :grin2:


WUSV is the IPO world Championship?


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## Muskeg

I've known three beautiful WGSL dogs, two of them were competitive IPO dogs, the third didn't do IPO (probably could have) and had great drives, I used to see him walking down town off leash carrying his ball-on-string and playing fetch at the fields. I vaguely knew the owner, we both trained our dog at the same park, our dogs ignored each other (which is perfect). Beautiful dog, really nice movement and structure. 

I have also seen many more really poorly built, poor temperament WGSL, one with a gait so off I thought at first the dog had a neurological issue.

I wouldn't completely discount WGSL- there are some great ones out there and they can carry some nice drives. It might take more work to find a good breeder, but they are certainly out there. If I was in the market for a GSD, I'd try to find one like the dog I saw downtown- I really liked that dog, just the perfect GSD and really handsome. I have to admit, I prefer the red and black coloration. 

In short, yes, there are some good IPO dogs out of WGSL, do your homework... I see quite a few working police dogs that have the classic red-black "look" (I don't know the pedigree but they look WGSL) so the good ones can do it all.


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## Chip Blasiole

Solamar said:


> Yes, this!
> 
> Isn't IPO the "Show" that WGSL are being bred for? If IPO judges favored working line traits, then wouldn't the WGSL move in that direction?
> 
> I believe that I understand working lines. If I wanted a PPD, police dog, S&R, herding etc I'd be looking for a solid working line breeder.
> 
> But if IPO is your game shouldn't WGSL be your starting point? Think I'm missing something....


No, you still don't understand. Like the previous poster said, the WGSL are bred for the conformation show. IPO titles are a requirement, but the show people, are really more interested in the dogs' appearance and movement. If you wanted to compete in IPO or another protection sport, your odds of getting a dog with higher drives, stronger nerves, etc. would increase by going with working lines. Same is true for PPD, and police dog. There are some WGSL dogs that willdo well in those areas, but the odds are very much against you. SAR and herding are different. You could probably find a good WGSL dog to do SAR with. For herding, you are best to go with lines bred for herding, but as I said, most of the old, good herding lines are gone, but there are a handful of people breeding them. If you are more interested in working ability than conformation, go with the working lines and vice versa. Then within the working lines, there are dogs more suited for sport than real work, dogs more suited for real work than sport, dogs suited for both, and dogs that are not particular good for much more than a pet. So if you are looking at working lines, your starting point is to learn what traits are desirable, how to identify those traits, and then to learn about dogs and bloodlines that tend to produce those traits. There is a ton to learn, and IMO, you really can't learn about working dogs without working them both as a handler and as a decoy.


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## carmspack

muskeg said
"n short, yes, there are some good IPO dogs out of WGSL, do your homework.."

please locate them and notify those SV members who participate in the National Sieger show -- because thsoe
dogs continue to be an embarrassment . 

Not getting better .

IPO titles are a necessary inconvenience .

May as well do away with the pretence.


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## Solamar

Chip Blasiole said:


> No, you still don't understand. Like the previous poster said, the WGSL are bred for the conformation show. IPO titles are a requirement, but the show people, are really more interested in the dogs' appearance and movement. If you wanted to compete in IPO or another protection sport, your odds of getting a dog with higher drives, stronger nerves, etc. would increase by going with working lines. Same is true for PPD, and police dog. There are some WGSL dogs that willdo well in those areas, but the odds are very much against you. SAR and herding are different. You could probably find a good WGSL dog to do SAR with. For herding, you are best to go with lines bred for herding, but as I said, most of the old, good herding lines are gone, but there are a handful of people breeding them. If you are more interested in working ability than conformation, go with the working lines and vice versa. Then within the working lines, there are dogs more suited for sport than real work, dogs more suited for real work than sport, dogs suited for both, and dogs that are not particular good for much more than a pet. So if you are looking at working lines, your starting point is to learn what traits are desirable, how to identify those traits, and then to learn about dogs and bloodlines that tend to produce those traits. There is a ton to learn, and IMO, you really can't learn about working dogs without working them both as a handler and as a decoy.


My error was that I thought IPO was the "show" that WGSL dogs were bred for. I thought conformation was a part of IPO not a separate "Sieger" show of the Westminster type.

I'm reading an interesting article about the Martin Brothers now - The legacy of Herr Herman Martin - was it for the better or worse for the GSD - Page 1 

Shame things went that way...


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## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> No, you still don't understand. Like the previous poster said, the WGSL are bred for the conformation show. IPO titles are a requirement, but the show people, are really more interested in the dogs' appearance and movement. If you wanted to compete in IPO or another protection sport, your odds of getting a dog with higher drives, stronger nerves, etc. would increase by going with working lines. Same is true for PPD, and police dog. There are some WGSL dogs that willdo well in those areas, but the odds are very much against you. SAR and herding are different. You could probably find a good WGSL dog to do SAR with. For herding, you are best to go with lines bred for herding, but as I said, most of the old, good herding lines are gone, but there are a handful of people breeding them. If you are more interested in working ability than conformation, go with the working lines and vice versa. Then within the working lines, there are dogs more suited for sport than real work, dogs more suited for real work than sport, dogs suited for both, and dogs that are not particular good for much more than a pet. So if you are looking at working lines, your starting point is to learn what traits are desirable, how to identify those traits, and then to learn about dogs and bloodlines that tend to produce those traits. There is a ton to learn, and IMO, you really can't learn about working dogs without working them both as a handler and as a decoy.


Thank you!


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## Chip Blasiole

Some have argued that the conformation of the working lines has improved over the years, but at the expense of working ability. One factor was the result of trying to improve hips in the working lines. An old dog, Horst von Boll produced lines with great courage but oversized dogs with weak pasterns and hip issues and the dogs breaking down before their time. These lines were bred to a lot by the working people in the 1970's. Part of the courage element of these lines included active aggression or what some refer to as competitive aggression or fight drive. An offensive type of aggression. When it was discovered that the structural problems were resulting from these lines, they were bred away from and active aggression in the breed decreased, leaving a less complex type of dog composed largely of prey and defense, without the element of active aggression, which, IMO is so desirable, but an improvement in pasterns, correct size, hips and a longer work life.
The other side of the coin is that the very early show lines were bred at the expense of very poor temperament at time. In 1903, Roland von Starkenburg became a model for the breed in terms of structure and was considered a mutant in terms of vastly improving structure. But he had a weak temperament, and the breed books tend to leave that part out. Same for the founding dog, Horand von Grafath. He was a show dog with no working titles. Von Stephanitz' line about always keeping his breed a working dog, was disingenuous IMO, and he was not known for being a very successful breeder. But the difference in working and show lines was very different in the beginning of the breed and really changed around the late 1960's-1970's when the heads of the SV (Martin brothers) sold out the breed. This was when Japan's economy was booming and they produced these black and red, cookie cutter show dogs that went to Japan and other wealthy countries for ridiculous amounts of money. I remember years ago, a fairly well known WGSL breeder in the states sold the actor Robert Wagner a WGSL dog for $250,000. That would probably be about $500,000 in today's money. They say something is worth whatever someone will pay for it, but no dog is worth that type of money.


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## Steve Strom

Solamar said:


> So if I'm a breeder I can use the sport to "prove" my dogs by gaining titles at a 70 point score?
> 
> But, if I enjoy the sport for itself and want to be competitive (working toward that 100 Pt run) there are better options than a typical WGSL?
> 
> Close?
> 
> 
> (I just checked and there is a IPO trial coming up in December near me, looking forward to going!)


Thats good. I missed your edit. Once you've had the chance to see enough dogs, or maybe trial some, it gives you a different perspective.


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## egwinjr

now heres an odd question, obviously we know the WL gsd will on average be a better suited performer to IPO or working in general for a variety of reasons, but how does the SL compare to say a rotwollier or cane corso, something along those lines where they too are a heavier built dog with a bigger head and in their cases shorter snout structure? I see plenty of people using them as well.


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## Chip Blasiole

I'll just address the Rottweiler. IMO, the working quality of the breed had decreased. Twenty years or more ago, the breed began to get a bad reputation due to breeding overly aggressive dogs that were way oversized with other problems. I think the breed advocates tried to correct the issue, but the pendulum went too fat in the other direction with most of the European lines having too much emphasis on conformation with aggression too watered down. My understanding is that there are still some tough lines out there, but they are definitely the minority. Size and head structure isn't that much of an issue if the dog has the correct drives.


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## Steve Strom

egwinjr said:


> now heres an odd question, obviously we know the WL gsd will on average be a better suited performer to IPO or working in general for a variety of reasons, but how does the SL compare to say a rotwollier or cane corso, something along those lines where they too are a heavier built dog with a bigger head and in their cases shorter snout structure? I see plenty of people using them as well.


I can't say much about Cane Corso's, I've never seen one that wasn't just a goof around kind of dog, but the problem with comparing Rotts in this type of discussion, is that they never really did match up to Shepherds. And what they're doing to the snout and structure now? Common sense tells you that extreme short snout is going to affect breathing, biting, endurance, everything they do. Pugs can have plenty of drive, what can they do with it?


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## Femfa

Steve Strom said:


> I can't say much about Cane Corso's, I've never seen one that wasn't just a goof around kind of dog, but the problem with comparing Rotts in this type of discussion, is that they never really did match up to Shepherds. And what they're doing to the snout and structure now? Common sense tells you that extreme short snout is going to affect breathing, biting, endurance, everything they do. Pugs can have plenty of drive, what can they do with it?




Pugs have a really cool trick where they run into something too hard and make their eyes pop out. Unfortunately they have difficulty putting them back in afterwards...

As for the Rotties... I have one in my obedience class. The dog is the goofiest, biggest suck I’ve ever met. Rolling around while we’re sitting and listening, cozying up to everyone for cuddles and love. Happily playing with every dog he met. Very sweet guy. I don’t think he’d harm a fly.


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## Shepdad

Femfa said:


> Pugs have a really cool trick where they run into something too hard and make their eyes pop out. Unfortunately they have difficulty putting them back in afterwards...:rofl:
> .


One way to think about it is that the grading curve used for judging WL and SL are different. The WL are in the gifted kids class and the SL are in the average kids class. The teachers use different grading curves for the 2 classrooms So an 85 in one classroom is different from an 85 in the other classroom. They all end up with the same diploma after finishing the class.


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## onyx'girl

Shepdad said:


> One way to think about it is that the grading curve used for judging WL and SL are different. The WL are in the gifted kids class and the SL are in the average kids class. The teachers use different grading curves for the 2 classrooms So an 85 in one classroom is different from an 85 in the other classroom. They all end up with the same diploma after finishing the class.


I trialed under a judge that bred showlines, prefers showlines and was a bit biased, IMO against working lines. His comments during critiques proved my thought. I think he had a higher barset when judging the WL's~ meaning they really did have to out perform to get higher points compared to the SL's that were trialing. This trial was by a club that is pretty dominate in SL's. Thus the reason for choosing that judge. He also made comments about the Malinois that were entered in the trial. I would never trial under him again.


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## mspiker03

onyx'girl said:


> I trialed under a judge that bred showlines, prefers showlines and was a bit biased, IMO against working lines. His comments during critiques proved my thought. I think he had a higher barset when judging the WL's~ meaning they really did have to out perform to get higher points compared to the SL's that were trialing. This trial was by a club that is pretty dominate in SL's. Thus the reason for choosing that judge. He also made comments about the Malinois that were entered in the trial. I would never trial under him again.



Funny - I had a bit of an opposite situation because I have a showline. I need to find your judge lol


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## Jax08

egwinjr said:


> now heres an odd question, obviously we know the WL gsd will on average be a better suited performer to IPO or working in general for a variety of reasons, but how does the SL compare to say a rotwollier or cane corso, something along those lines where they too are a heavier built dog with a bigger head and in their cases shorter snout structure? I see plenty of people using them as well.


The issue isn't their structure. It's their natural drives and what they were bred for. 

I have yet to see a Cane Corso do very well. They lack the prey drive to bite and stay on the sleeve. They have to be worked in aggression.

As far as the Rott's, they can do well in protection and obedience but some struggle in tracking.

I've seen some American Bulldog's do well. And one Boxer with an extreme underbite. It was horrid. But he could bite and stay on too.


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## GSDguy4EVER

Muskeg said:


> I've known three beautiful WGSL dogs, two of them were competitive IPO dogs, the third didn't do IPO (probably could have) and had great drives, I used to see him walking down town off leash carrying his ball-on-string and playing fetch at the fields. I vaguely knew the owner, we both trained our dog at the same park, our dogs ignored each other (which is perfect). Beautiful dog, really nice movement and structure.
> 
> I have also seen many more really poorly built, poor temperament WGSL, one with a gait so off I thought at first the dog had a neurological issue.
> 
> I wouldn't completely discount WGSL- there are some great ones out there and they can carry some nice drives. It might take more work to find a good breeder, but they are certainly out there. If I was in the market for a GSD, I'd try to find one like the dog I saw downtown- I really liked that dog, just the perfect GSD and really handsome. I have to admit, I prefer the red and black coloration.
> 
> In short, yes, there are some good IPO dogs out of WGSL, do your homework... I see quite a few working police dogs that have the classic red-black "look" (I don't know the pedigree but they look WGSL) so the good ones can do it all.


When I was a young teenager in the early 1990's, my cousin had a gorgeous black and red GSD. The most handsome GSD I have seen in person. When we would walk the dog, strangers literally stopped their cars to ask what kennel this dog was from. But on top of being physically striking, this dog had an imposing demeanor about him. He was a dog you knew right away not to mess with. He was aloof with strangers, not a dog you wanted to be caught in the yard with if he didn't know you. Yet he was safe with family and kids .He was even a gentleman with female dogs and would allow them to take over his food. He was not obstinate. Took direction easily. I wish this type of black and red GSD was still available today.


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## onyx'girl

mspiker03 said:


> Funny - I had a bit of an opposite situation because I have a showline. I need to find your judge lol


I'd rather trial under a judge like Dr. Raiser that looks at the total dog and not the line or breed. Bring on the RSV2000


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## mspiker03

onyx'girl said:


> I'd rather trial under a judge like Dr. Raiser that looks at the total dog and not the line or breed. Bring on the RSV2000



I am just kidding about finding that judge - I don't think there are any SL clubs anywhere near me. And I am not driving 8 hrs to trial. Lol

My point was - the bias can happen in various ways.


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## Steve Strom

Huh oh, someone better tell this dog he's a showline.


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## egwinjr

Steve Strom said:


> Huh oh, someone better tell this dog he's a showline.


We?ll see how SL does when I get one. Unless something changes my mind prior which I doubt, I?m going to move forward with purchasing one through the breeder in CA I linked prior.


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## Sunsilver

Nice full mouth grip!


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## Jenny720

Great video!!! Yes I?m sure you will be very happy with a wgsl. A reputable breeder is honest and will match you up the right pup In the litter for what you want.


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## Shepdad

Steve Strom said:


> Huh oh, someone better tell this dog he's a showline.


Always nice to see young people involved in the sport. Hate to be the wet blanket but there is always a possibility that training a dog too early in protection can result in a locked-in-prey dog. A problem if one is using Sch as a breed test but perfectly fine if one is doing it purely for sport. I would like to see this dog again when it is 3 years old.


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## Steve Strom

He's 2 now and his IPO1 scores-100-94-96.


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## Shepdad

Steve Strom said:


> He's 2 now and his IPO1 scores-100-94-96.


Thanks for the info Steve.


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## lhczth

Friend of mine bred to his sire, Max, who is also a nice dog and proving he can produce dogs that can actually get out there and really do IPO.


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## carmspack

Shepdad said:


> Always nice to see young people involved in the sport. Hate to be the wet blanket but there is always a possibility that training a dog too early in protection can result in a locked-in-prey dog. A problem if one is using Sch as a breed test but perfectly fine if one is doing it purely for sport. I would like to see this dog again when it is 3 years old.


I wouldn't have called it protection training. Agree with shepdad.
What was shown was some high prey work -- frustrated prey stimulation -- nice full grip

obviously a trainable partner


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## Steve Strom

Well, I guess that settles that. Working a young dog in prey. Crazy.


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## Muskeg

Yup, never work a young dog in prey??

Nice dog, if I am ever looking for a GSD pup will keep them in mind.


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## Steve Strom

Muskeg said:


> Yup, never work a young dog in prey??
> 
> Nice dog, if I am ever looking for a GSD pup will keep them in mind.


You're too locked into "nice dog".


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## Nigel

I suppose peanut butter on the sleeve can can help avoid the prey pitfall and use food drive instead?


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## Steve Strom

Nigel said:


> I suppose peanut butter on the sleeve can can help avoid the prey pitfall and use food drive instead?


And if it has a little lubricant value, maybe help with the tooth wear?


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## Nigel

Steve Strom said:


> And if it has a little lubricant value, maybe help with the tooth wear?


Yup, it's a win-win!


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## carmspack

you can work a young dog in prey 

you need to bring in some tension and confrontation to keep the check for the breeds' 
character and temperament evaluated 

that is if you want to use IPO as an evaluation for breeding 

other wise you have a choreographed dance

I do know of a dog , who was stunningly beautiful as a specimen of the breed -- confromaton and black sable -- biddable did "everything" -- 

you would be proud of this dog - safe in public -- great pet/companion/ competitive obedience 

I have known his owner for decades . I respect him as a trainer (excellent ++) , and as a person .
I have recommended him many times both on the forum and privately , and everyone that has used his
training services has been impressed .

I like the dog too.

But you have got to keep it real . 
Many put pressure for me to use this dog on one of my females -- and I did not. I told them why.

because it is not about the training or the points -- there is more to the dog 

then at a trial , the dog that this beautiful presentation in the obedience phase -- and an obedience presentation in the "protection" phase . 

then the judge , David Grant , gave the critique -- and he commended the dog on the near perfect beautiful show on the trial field and then continued to say that there was no power , no heart , no fight , no desire to dominant the decoy .

and that is what I saw every time I saw this gorgeous dog in trial.

I also got the opportunity to see his sire in another trial and know where he got it from.

we need to keep it a bit real.

now , on the other hand , the owner of this dog , who loves his dogs and is very considerate of them , and accommodating to bring out THEIR best (which he does!) also has another male - a few years younger

this one is a tiekerhook dog - direct from that kennel . The difference is like high noon in the summer sun to the moonless night of a clear sky winter .

Could not be more different .

Social dogs both . 

The tiekerhook dog is power - pushes back -- is serious in his bite work , doesn't get "caught" but rams in and pushes the decoy -- is deep in his bark , and gives direct I-dare-you eye contact to the decoy who does fight him.

at the same time he is trainable and easy to motivate.

the obedience isn't as pretty -- but the dog does not fail to work as a team partner.

we need to keep it real.


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## carmspack

carmspack said:


> I wouldn't have called it protection training. Agree with shepdad.
> What was shown was some high prey work -- frustrated prey stimulation -- nice full grip
> 
> obviously a trainable partner


where is this being negative?


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## Steve Strom

If you want to use IPO as anything, its right there and verifiable. You don't have to fall off into the esoteric cavern of "Doesn't it sound awesome"


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## GSDguy4EVER

carmspack said:


> where is this being negative?


I think to say that "I wouldnt have called it protection training" may come off as negative. However, we have to be fair to the dog. The dog at the time of the video is 8 months old. Of course this dog should not be worked in anything but prey based bitework at this age. And he does show very good grips, so his foundation in protection work looks good.

But Carmspack does have a point. Lets keep it real.

So, Steve Strom, my questions to you is- Can this dog, now as an adult, do real protection work? Can he handle real pressure in defense?


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## Steve Strom

Yeah


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## mycobraracr

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Of course this dog should not be worked in anything but prey based bitework at this age.



That's not entirely accurate. A puppy with solid nerve and balanced drives can be worked in both drives as long as it's done correctly. Just like everything else, balance is key.


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## GSDguy4EVER

mycobraracr said:


> That's not entirely accurate. A puppy with solid nerve and balanced drives can be worked in both drives as long as it's done correctly. Just like everything else, balance is key.


In your experience, I how early "can" you start introducing defense in bitework with puppies? provided they have solid nerves and balanced drives, of course.


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## mycobraracr

GSDguy4EVER said:


> In your experience, I how early "can" you start introducing defense in bitework with puppies? provided they have solid nerves and balanced drives, of course.



It all depends on the individual dog. I view drives like muscles. If I only ever work out my upper body, then I can't expect my legs to get stronger. The key is keeping it all age and puppy appropriate. 

One of my "A" litter pups at 4 months. 





Kimber at almost seven months, first time ever seeing a decoy.


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## cliffson1

mycobraracr said:


> That's not entirely accurate. A puppy with solid nerve and balanced drives can be worked in both drives as long as it's done correctly. Just like everything else, balance is key.


Thank you, Jeremy!


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## GSDguy4EVER

Certainly, there are always competing philosophies regarding all aspects of dog training. With regards to defense drive development I tend to think it is better to wait until a dog is more mature. Here is an article by Armin Winkler regarding the topic. He seems to have the credentials in this aspect of dog training.

Schutzhund Village

This may have already been discussed in prior threads.

I wanted to highlight this statement of his- "One absolutely crucial pre-requisite is maturity. The dog has to show the helper that he is capable of dealing with this type of training. I rarely start defensive training in dogs under one year old, more often though I wait until they are quite a bit older.

Next, let me caution the readers about the territory we are about to enter. Defense drive is an important part of protection training, but it is the most dangerous aspect of it as well. By that I mean that it is dangerous for the dogs. Defense training done wrong can really ruin a dog. My philosophy is this: "It is never too late to do defense type work, but quite often it is done too early.""

Mycobraracr,

If you have any literature regarding early defense drive development in puppies, please share. I like to keep an open mind. Rarely is anything absolute in this game.


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## mycobraracr

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Certainly, there are always competing philosophies regarding all aspects of dog training. With regards to defense drive development I tend to think it is better to wait until a dog is more mature. Here is an article by Armin Winkler regarding the topic. He seems to have the credentials in this aspect of dog training.
> 
> Schutzhund Village
> 
> This may have already been discussed in prior threads.
> 
> I wanted to highlight this statement of his- "One absolutely crucial pre-requisite is maturity. The dog has to show the helper that he is capable of dealing with this type of training. I rarely start defensive training in dogs under one year old, more often though I wait until they are quite a bit older.
> 
> Next, let me caution the readers about the territory we are about to enter. Defense drive is an important part of protection training, but it is the most dangerous aspect of it as well. By that I mean that it is dangerous for the dogs. Defense training done wrong can really ruin a dog. My philosophy is this: "It is never too late to do defense type work, but quite often it is done too early.""
> 
> Mycobraracr,
> 
> If you have any literature regarding early defense drive development in puppies, please share. I like to keep an open mind. Rarely is anything absolute in this game.




I love Armins articles, and they were a pre-requisite if reading material by my mentor before even being aloud to touch a dog. Didn?t do my weekly reading, didn?t get to work dogs that day. 

One thing to keep in mind is the era of the philosophies. The old school thought, is that you didn?t start working dogs in anything that resembled protection work until they were a year to 18 months old. Things have changed, and people are working dogs right out of the womb, and expecting to go to nationals or worlds before the dog reaches 3 years of age. For most people, that means working dogs in all prey. The problem comes from my previous statemeant about drives being like muscles. I do feel that a dog that only gets worked in prey can get stuck in it. Then when they get older, people add in defense and the dog doesn?t understand the change in the ?game?. 

Mental maturity, doesn?t have to do with a specific age. My 11 month old still acts more like a 6 month old to me. Her mom at 11 months was doing building searches and training with le dogs. So every dog is different. Adding in defense, can be done, but all age/maturity appropriate. It all comes from a helper/decoy who explains things to the dog. There are many levels to these drives. I believe in teaching the dog how to turn off the pressure. Add pressure, dog fights harder, pressure stops. As the dog matures, the pressure increases. The only way for the dog to turn off the pressure is by fighting harder. After a while these dogs know they can take on anything.


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## Sunsilver

Fantastic article, GSDguy! I'm going to save it for future reference.

The biggest issue with dogs that have been taught to work primarily in prey is getting them to bite 'for real'. They need to be convinced it's okay to bite something other than the prey object (sleeve).


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## Slamdunc

There several ways to tap into defense, from guarding an object to presence and a threat. It can be very subtle, but the decoy really needs to be able to read the dog. Some young puppies can be put into defense at 5 or 6 months old and can handle the pressure. The skill is knowing how that pressure will affect the dog a week, a month, a year or two down the road. I generally, do not push young dogs or immature dogs too hard or fast into defense. I may have the dog switch gears briefly from prey to defense and work that. But this takes experience. It is like shaking up a soda bottle, you need to be able to loosen the cap and release some pressure before the top blows off. 

Prey should never be discounted for sport, PPD or LE dogs. Prey brings speed and power. I read many forums where the "gurus" talk about their "civil training" methods and then I see the videos of their work. Often times it is a bunch of guys slapping each other on the back talking about how great and "real" their dogs is. The reality is the dog is hectic, conflicted and often would run if not back tied. Defense is a nice thing to have and train, when done properly. Focusing too much on defense is just as bad as working a dog entirely in prey. Both must be done and it must be balanced. I've trained / decoyed for a lot of dogs from puppies to IPO 3 and I've always started in prey. I've trained and done helper work for a lot of LE dogs from 9-10 month old dogs to fully mature working K9's. I've started them in prey and grip work as well. I've never had a LE K-9 that I've trained not engage for real, some on their first shift on the street. 

Defense is important, but not at the expense of the dog or for the vanity or ego of the helper or trainer. Their is nothing wrong with working young dogs in prey, it is very beneficial. When the dog is ready and mature enough you begin to make things more serious. I would never start a young dog out in defense, unless it was so sharp and completely lacked prey drive. That is a rare situation. IME, trainers that push young dogs to quickly into defense generally screw them up. You will see shallow grips, lots of rebiting, dogs that will not out, growling and hectic behavior. Some of that will be genetic, but most will be poor helper work, handling and training.


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## Sunsilver

Jim, you pretty much summed up what was said in the article GSDguy linked to!

Puppies are started in prey, and when they are mature enough, the helper introduces conflict and triggers defense by threatening to take the prey away from them.

That approach makes a lot of sense to me!


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## cliffson1

mycobraracr said:


> That's not entirely accurate. A puppy with solid nerve and balanced drives can be worked in both drives as long as it's done correctly. Just like everything else, balance is key.


This!
I also agree with Slam’s post. People are always focusing on drives, but the key component to me ( As Jeremy said) is the nerves and the balance of drives. To me it is very important that the drive doesn’t dominate the nerve as it makes it difficult for the dog to be responsive and in control by handler when in drive. Some breeds have extreme drive and it works well, but in our breed if the drive( prey or defense) is too extreme than it is difficult for balance that is necessary for the channeling of drives. 
I have seen dogs ( GS) that were so prey driven that they will focus on the sleeve on ground even when a physical threat is imposed on them. That is counter intuitive to just plain nature. I have also seen dogs that the defense is so high that the dog sees a threat in every instance presented and cannot trust a normal situation. Both of these types are not balanced and lose the versatility they need for work, besides not being able to channel from prey to defense or vice versa easily. This is vital for working German shepherds.
As Slam says, in order to work a young dog...6-12 months, in defense the decoy must be able to read the dog, know how to work the dog, and have a dog that has the genetics to be worked in defense young. But there are definitely dogs that can be worked in defense early, but today I would say they are the exception as are the people who know how to work young dogs in defense. Jmo. And that is not a shot at trainers in general, it’s more geared toward the lack of need for defense work for dog except LE/ military.


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## carmspack

I know ! 
mycobra 
"Things have changed, and people are working dogs right out of the womb, and expecting to go to nationals or worlds before the dog reaches 3 years of age. For most people, that means working dogs in all prey"

think of it another way --- they are training a routine , rather than training the dog.

big big difference 

I generally don't do much with my young stock - even the ones going in for LE intake .

they get a sense of how to be - general relationship and bonding --- how to negotiate in normal social
and environmental variations --- how to adapt and focus in chaos, commotion, surprise elements --
work alone -- work with -- work in all weather and all light conditions.

For the last few words that may include tossing a ball into a cinder block barn , loaded with hay bales and
skids on floor (ventilates the hay ) in the pitch dark , open door and let dog in - close the door and wait till he appears at the door window , and how he appears.

checks drive and confidence .

I may do a bit of tug -- but they will not see a sleeve and they will not see a decoy until maybe one day or so before , for my information --- 

I want to see the natural , bred-in-the-bone , instinctual action . Training won't help you in a real life situation if it is not truly there by nature.

Yikes - so the one time , we were totally unprepared to be called in that early ---- two dogs, two separate litters , about 6 weeks age difference.

they were just over 8 months for the one - Silva (successful LE) and the elder dog - Stark https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/successes-references/carmspack-stark 

a call came in for us to bring the dogs to the Niagara Region area - meet at a coffee shop and then follow an officer's car to an area , undisclosed and unfamiliar some miles down the way --- immediately upon arriving each dog had to do a 
"stranger track" aged in high windy conditions and about 1/4 mile minimum. Both successful

the testing moved on to article finds , being taken and tied out obscured by trees and bush for a good period of time
- and then at some point meet with an aggressive challenging person 

working in pitch dark special room beside an active auto-mechanics garage while going up and down stairs in the pitch black with a stranger (officer) 

when they came out the most difficult thing was which one they would choose

we finally helped make the decision by recommending the dog with the 6 week age advantage -- more ready for the 
discipline of training for the certification course which was scheduled 3 months down the way -- just enough time for a beautiful handler/dog bonding time.

the dogs were not are not prepped with training.

I personally think that the clubs take dogs too young and start imprinting a pattern 

I would rather have the dog be more mentally versatile and learn with real non controlled experiences -- and then let the quality of the dogs character shine through.

for breeding this makes sense . You are breeding the dog , not the training.

do not think that I am talking about the Arlett dog . I think he is a good dog . I respect Arlett for their long and on-going breeding programme which DOES try to maintain working ability . They even bucked the trend and used and appreciated the sable . This article has got to be at least 20 years or more old
The sable Shepherd - "A museum piece"?

the dog in the video enjoys his work --- very trainable - nice dog


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## carmspack

slamdunc I do have some people in mind when you say this 
" I see the videos of their work. Often times it is a bunch of guys slapping each other on the back talking about how great and "real" their dogs is. The reality is the dog is hectic, conflicted and often would run if not back tied"

TRUE and yet they fail to see.


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