# Looking for info on pedigree!



## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

My husband and I got our first AKC registered puppy a couple months ago from my uncle. I have her AKC pedigree certificate and was hoping someone could tell me a little more about her and what kind of GSDs are in her line. I looked at several of them from what I could find but I'm new to all of the abbreviations and whatnot. Also, I do not know the dogs, therefore, do not recognize any names like you guys might. Any info would be great. Thanks!

Missprints

And here is a picture of her I took today, she is 5 months old.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Very Beautiful girl you have there. Im no Pedigree expert ,but she most likely comes from a BYB. The online pedigree is incomplete. You can order her online research pedigree from the akc store for 10 bucks to get more info. After 3 generations there is really not much info on the database. She doesnt seem to be of a certain type either. If you fill in the missing info on the database or PM me a link to her research pedigree i will gladly fil it in on the database. It is possible that someone here may recognize the names. Don and Kendi are WGSL for sure.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Looks like all American lines. Not much info as far as titles or OFA scores, so can't comment there.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Very Beautiful girl you have there. Im no Pedigree expert ,but she most likely comes from a BYB. The online pedigree is incomplete. You can order her online research pedigree from the akc store for 10 bucks to get more info. After 3 generations there is really not much info on the database. She doesnt seem to be of a certain type either. If you fill in the missing info on the database or PM me a link to her research pedigree i will gladly fil it in on the database. It is possible that someone here may recognize the names. Don and Kendi are WGSL for sure.


Thank you!

Is the online research pedigree you mention different than the pedigree certificate I got from the AKC already when I registered her?

And yes, I did notice it was incomplete, I filled in the first generations that are from my ped cert. I did see dogs all the way back to the 1870's on her father's side but I don't know anything more than what I saw about them.

What is WGSL? >.< I'm gonna guess and say West German Shepherd Line?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Sorry... didn't go that far back. MHarrison's right... there is some German show lines in there. Though a lot of info is incomplete, all of the names within the immediate first 3 generations back all sound like American lines.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

If I were to buy the online research pedigree, do I buy it for my dog or one further back? My current ped cert is only 3 years but most of her father's info is there. It's her mother's that I'm missing so I'm not sure which dog's research ped I should buy? Or if it's even possible to buy another dog's ped.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm thinking since the mother's info is incomplete, I could start by getting the research ped for the mother? Since the cert I have already shows 2 generations of her, if I get the 5 year ped then it will give me an extra 3 gens that I can add to the database and hope something comes up?

I think that's how it would work, please correct me if I'm wrong or if I don't make sense.

Also, it looks like a 5 year research ped is $17


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

You can get moms if you wish. That would probably be ok depending on how many dogs where breed as pets, but there is also missing info on dads side as well. If you really want to get in there you could go for both 5 gen pedigrees.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

Ok. I got mom's side, 5 years, and I updated it to the database. Some of the names opened up a few. I'll look at the dad's and see what I can do for that one.

Of course I still don't know who they are so again, if anyone knows anything, I'd be grateful to hear!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The lines shown aren't American lines (not show lines). They're pet line.

Typical BYB pedigree. Cute pup.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

Xeph said:


> The lines shown aren't American lines (not show lines). They're pet line.
> 
> Typical BYB pedigree. Cute pup.


Is there something less desirable about "typical backyard breeder pedigree"? I understand BYB is frowned upon due to the lack of health certs, titles, temperament flaws and many other things. However, my first GSD was clearly from a BYB who was sold to me when she was 4 weeks old when I was 22 years old and inexperienced. She has turned out to be a very well behaved, healthy and protective dog who is now almost 9 years old. Even with everything I've learned over the years in regards to the GSD, I would not trade her for anything.

I know you "take your chances" with the health and temperament of your dog when you buy from a BYB but that doesn't mean that all dogs from BYB are bad. For example, having both the sire and dam OFA certified for hips, elbows and other things, there is no guarantee the litter pups will have good hips, ect. Things like that have to be checked several generations back which would take decades to finally have a "breedable" dog. I feel the "shunning" if you will, already, just from hearing about the new pup being from a BYB.

She will be trained, loved and cared for as if she was considered a perfect specimen of the GSD. I've found that what you put into your dog (besides the initial price you pay) is what you get in return.

I hope I'm not coming across as defensive because I'm not, just wanted to speak my mind about the "BYB Pedigree". I'm not planning on breeding her, nor did I breed my first GSD but I was interested in knowing more about her.
Even though there are so many poor animals in the shelters as it is, it seems there is still a market for the typical BYB, simply because you can still obtain a valuable pet at a far more reasonable cost compared to the cost of others (which is probably for another thread so I'll stop there).

Anyway, thanks for the input thus far and I certainly welcome more! I'm still learning a great deal!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> For example, having both the sire and dam OFA certified for hips, elbows and other things, there is no guarantee the litter pups will have good hips,


But that's not an excuse not to screen anyway

And I wasn't shunning, just stating facts. The fact is her pedigree is "pet lines", so there really isn't any real information for anybody to give you


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

I understand, just thinking someone may recognize a name or know a little something. I know there are many knowledgeable people here.

I have read also that large breed dogs in general are susceptible to hip dysplasia, even if the lines are cleared, from things like over exercising them, doing sporting activities that go against their natural movement, excessive weight gain, etc. 

In a perfect world where money is not an issue, I would do every test possible to ensure the best quality of life for my dogs. But we all know, this is far from a perfect world. 

Since she has pet lines, maybe that will make her a better pet


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm also in the process of filling in the blanks. I see some show dogs with some titles in there. I just find it very interesting. Maybe I'm just bored.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> The lines shown aren't American lines (not show lines). They're pet line.
> 
> Typical BYB pedigree. Cute pup.


100% right. You cannot reliably call this dog anything but out of American pet lines. She is just too far removed from distinguishable American show lines, German show lines, or any one of the working bloodlines. This is a pet breeding through and through - because none of these dogs have been exhibited in public venues, nobody can tell you anything about these dogs because it is very unlikely that anyone has firsthand contact or experience with little known pet line dogs. 

Sasha is the result of a 2-2 half-sibling to half-sibling mating. Other than that, there is too much incomplete and missing information for anyone to tell you anything reliable about these dogs. You could get a certified AKC pedigree, but I doubt it will be worth it as you likely won't gain any new information. 

Enjoy your dog and have fun with her. But do more research before getting the next one.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

qbchottu said:


> Enjoy your dog and have fun with her. But do more research before getting the next one.


Just because I am asking for any information on her based on what is there, doesn't mean that I expected anything. I was curious. I need to do more research on the next one so I don't have to come here and ask, is that it? Or should I do more research to ensure I actually get a "quality" dog? 

She's a companion and an addition to our family, regardless of her pedigree. Crappy or not. With love, training and investing in her, she will be a "quality" dog to me.

It's amazing to me that the more time I spend on this forum, the more I see unfair judgment towards dogs that do not have a recognizable/impressive lineage or some big story to tell of all of their accomplishments. Perhaps, I am judging the forum incorrectly but that has been my experience with a lot of what I've read so far..

My husband is a hunter and hunts mule deer and elk. With my first GSD (who is just a plain old "dog"), we took her out very young, maybe 6 months old the first time, with us on several hunts for mule deer. My husband was usually a few hundred yards in front of me and she would consistently go back and forth between us to ensure one or the other would not get lost. She was the only way I knew where to find him and follow. When passing livestock or packs of javelina, she was very aware yet not nervous or overly concerned (didn't bark or growl) as they were not a threat to us. That is just one example of an exceptional dog that showed very natural and desirable behavior from an early age with no training whatsoever. Do I have an award for that to hang on my wall? No, but I do have many awesome memories with her doing things like that and a bond built from a strong relationship based on loyalty and trust. To me, she has proven herself to be of sound quality, even though she's technically not a "quality bred GSD".

As always, thank you for your input.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't know anything about pedigrees. We have our Tessa to be part of our family, and to travel with us. Love your description of your last GSD, just like Tess, on hiking trips she continually checks in with both of us if we separate. She would much prefer for us to always be together... Your new pup is so cute...have fun with her, sounds like you will.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm amazed that people come on here look g for pedigree info on their pet dog, then get offended when very knowledgeable people say there is no info to be gleaned because they are pet lines. It's not judgement, it's not negative, it's a fact. She sounds like an AWESOME dog. I think all qb was saying in saying "do more research next time" is that if you're interested in pedigrees etc, learn about what goes into them, etc, because pet lines are a total crap shoot in terms of knowing exactly who came from where.

Nobody here has said a single negative thing about your dog, only how gorgeous she is. All they have commented on is what YOU asked for in terms of her pedigree. No comments at all as to how great of a dog she is, which as you know has little to do with what's on paper for a pet. You can't ask for info on a pedigree and then when people point out less than desire able facts, get insulted. She's an awesome dog who is absolutely stunning, so that's all that matters


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> I don't know anything about pedigrees. We have our Tessa to be part of our family, and to travel with us. Love your description of your last GSD, just like Tess, on hiking trips she continually checks in with both of us if we separate. She would much prefer for us to always be together... Your new pup is so cute...have fun with her, sounds like you will.


Thanks, I think she's a doll! Growing up too fast though. I've always loved German Shepherds, ever since I can remember. One of my favorite memories is being about 6 years old and laying on the floor next to my grandpa's GSD (Dutch then Duke) who was bigger than me! :wub:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Eliza, she's a very pretty girl, your lucky to have her and she's lucky to have you.

Every dog/puppy deserves a good home and you sound like a great one.

I'm not sure if it would work, but the pedigree you have listed on the database, just keep clicking back on the last dog's listed to see if you can further info to fill in even more of the pedigree.

If you can get it off the database, no need to spend money buying one from AKC, you can just print out what you get from the database

There are many members here who have rescues/dogs/puppies with not so 'perfect' backgrounds, doesn't make them any less loved and cherished.

I have had a gsd from a byb'er (a rescue of sorts), wouldn't have traded her for the world. 

Have fun with your new girl, again she's really gorgeous


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

In the original post, I believe Eliza said she got this girl from her uncle..So it's a relative who had puppies and she took one. Nuff said


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

The forum as a whole is very protective of the breed; we want the best of the best to continue the lineage. Not all BYB's are horrible people, but they don't do the breed justice with insuring health and temperament like a good breeder does. It's not a judgement on you, the dog is already home and part of the family so enjoy who she is  

As for the comments calling her a pet line, rather than show line or working line. That's simply based on the breeding, when a reputable breeder decides to have a litter there is a goal in mind: sport, police, SAR, etc. so the breeding reflects that in titles and certifications. When a person breeds two dogs simply because they're two nice dogs, that's a pet breeder. Again, not an awful person, but the litter can end up with multiple issues both mentally and health wise because there's no true idea of what they're breeding except for both dogs are "nice" in appearance and hopefully temperament.

I do hope you beat the odds and the dog turns out amazing, stack them in your favour by having regular health checks, get her hips and elbows OFA'd at 2 years old so you have a base line for future problems, and remember that good training is essential 

BTW my poodle is from a BYB, she's a great dog but very weak in nerves which does inhibit her daily life. Personally, I know I made a mistake and will never purchase from a BYB again - I'll either rescue or go back to a reputable breeder. The difference between Delgado and Jazzy is night and day


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm amazed that people come on here look g for pedigree info on their pet dog, then get offended when very knowledgeable people say there is no info to be gleaned because they are pet lines. It's not judgement, it's not negative, it's a fact. She sounds like an AWESOME dog. I think all qb was saying in saying "do more research next time" is that if you're interested in pedigrees etc, learn about what goes into them, etc, because pet lines are a total crap shoot in terms of knowing exactly who came from where.
> 
> Nobody here has said a single negative thing about your dog, only how gorgeous she is. All they have commented on is what YOU asked for in terms of her pedigree. No comments at all as to how great of a dog she is, which as you know has little to do with what's on paper for a pet. You can't ask for info on a pedigree and then when people point out less than desire able facts, get insulted. She's an awesome dog who is absolutely stunning, so that's all that matters


I would've said the same thing. 

You pay for what you get. If it was "more reasonable" for you to support a BYB than to support a reputable breeder who produces dogs with known health testing, titles, and lineage, then so be it. But you will never learn more to this puppy's pedigree other than the names. Hopefully you can get lucky again with a nice stable, healthy dog, and you won't have to go through the heartache that so many others have gone through when they get a dog with crippling dysplasia, allergies, or aggression problems that are so frequently seen in this breed, just because the breeder didn't bother to test the dogs. 

Judge the people on the forum as you will, but it's only because you asked a question and got an honest and truthful answer.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Eliza,
Thank you for your interest in your girl. This is a public forum and there is a lot of knowledge here. You are going to get the broad spectrum of input when you post anything. I have stuck my neck out before with a video I posted of my dog and I doing some heeling work and I received some critical comments. I just took it as a learning experience and was actually grateful because some things were pointed out to me that I was not aware of. 

This is a learning process. Pedigrees are the same. You have to start somewhere. My last two dogs came from a back yard breeder with a pedigree very similar to yours. The sires line had a little West German Show Line (WGSL) and the mothers line was nothing but random dogs. They were both very beautiful to my eyes. I loved them very much and they were great companions. Having said that, as I became more aware of what a German Shepherd should be, I began to notice weaknesses in their characters. Slight nervousness in strange environments, softness in training (unable to take a correction), Lack of drive. These were things that I was not aware of early on. As they aged I learned to just accept who they were and just enjoyed them as companions. During their lives, though, I did learn about the breed and was able to make a better purchase decision on my next dog. Now I have a West German Working Line (WGWL) and there is Zero comparison between the dogs. He is practically a different breed because of his fantastic temperament, Hardness, drive, and solid nerves. I don't regret my last two girls but I appreciate my current dog all the more because of them.

Enjoy your dog and don't take anything personally. I am sure she will be a wonderful member of your family. Just understand what she is and appreciate her for who she is.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm amazed that people come on here look g for pedigree info on their pet dog, then get offended when very knowledgeable people say there is no info to be gleaned because they are pet lines. It's not judgement, it's not negative, it's a fact. She sounds like an AWESOME dog. I think all qb was saying in saying "do more research next time" is that if you're interested in pedigrees etc, learn about what goes into them, etc, because pet lines are a total crap shoot in terms of knowing exactly who came from where.
> 
> Nobody here has said a single negative thing about your dog, only how gorgeous she is. All they have commented on is what YOU asked for in terms of her pedigree. No comments at all as to how great of a dog she is, which as you know has little to do with what's on paper for a pet. You can't ask for info on a pedigree and then when people point out less than desire able facts, get insulted. She's an awesome dog who is absolutely stunning, so that's all that matters


I'm not offended at the responses, nor did I say anyone said anything rude. It's the way it's being said. And it's not that the pedigree of a dog is going to matter to me, I was simply curious. I have read on this forum several times that BYB dogs are, for lack of a better word, worthless. My point is exactly what you stated - that her ped shows "less than desirable" facts when I'm only curious. Just because she has no history, as it turns out, doesn't mean that it has to be less than desirable. 

I'm full blooded German myself, maybe that is in part why I was curious. And it doesn't bother me one bit what people have said, just the way some thing were said. And yes, you can pick up emotion from words typed on a computer screen. 

Thank you for the compliment! No hurt feelings here. Just wanted to share my thoughts also.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

robk said:


> Eliza,
> Thank you for your interest in your girl. This is a public forum and there is a lot of knowledge here. You are going to get the broad spectrum of input when you post anything. I have stuck my neck out before with a video I posted of my dog and I doing some heeling work and I received some critical comments. I just took it as a learning experience and was actually grateful because some things were pointed out to me that I was not aware of.
> 
> This is a learning process. Pedigrees are the same. You have to start somewhere. My last two dogs came from a back yard breeder with a pedigree very similar to yours. The sires line had a little West German Show Line (WGSL) and the mothers line was nothing but random dogs. They were both very beautiful to my eyes. I loved them very much and they were great companions. Having said that, as I became more aware of what a German Shepherd should be, I began to notice weaknesses in their characters. Slight nervousness in strange environments, softness in training (unable to take a correction), Lack of drive. These were things that I was not aware of early on. As they aged I learned to just accept who they were and just enjoyed them as companions. During their lives, though, I did learn about the breed and was able to make a better purchase decision on my next dog. Now I have a West German Working Line (WGWL) and there is Zero comparison between the dogs. He is practically a different breed because of his fantastic temperament, Hardness, drive, and solid nerves. I don't regret my last two girls but I appreciate my current dog all the more because of them.
> ...


I appreciate what you said and yes, I will look out for things that may not match up with what a true GSD should be. Still learning things about them, they are fascinating creatures!


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Eliza said:


> I'm not offended at the responses, nor did I say anyone said anything rude. It's the way it's being said. And it's not that the pedigree of a dog is going to matter to me, I was simply curious. I have read on this forum several times that BYB dogs are, for lack of a better word, worthless. My point is exactly what you stated - that her ped shows "less than desirable" facts when I'm only curious. Just because she has no history, as it turns out, doesn't mean that it has to be less than desirable.
> 
> I'm full blooded German myself, maybe that is in part why I was curious. And it doesn't bother me one bit what people have said, just the way some thing were said. And yes, you can pick up emotion from words typed on a computer screen.
> 
> Thank you for the compliment! No hurt feelings here. Just wanted to share my thoughts also.


I can definitely see how you'd get the impression that BYB dogs are seen as worthless here, but I promise that's not the case-- a huge number of us have BYB dogs. Myself included! I love my dog, I think he's the bee's knees and he's totally my heart dog, but I will definitely, as qb said, do more research next time. I also don't think anyone meant any harm when they said "byb lines", just that they are pet lines produced by someone not specifically looking for a working dog or a show dog. That means nothing at all bad about your dog- just that she wasn't specifically bred for something


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

I got ya.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> In the original post, I believe Eliza said she got this girl from her uncle..So it's a relative who had puppies and she took one. Nuff said


Correct. And I wouldn't change a thing about it. I'm not in this to produce police dogs, titled geniuses or seeing eye dogs... I wanted a companion pet for my family and to give her a good home.

If I didn't get a dog from a BYB and paid 4 times as much for one from a reputable breeder, I feel I wouldn't be giving the dog the opportunity to be all he could be by simply having him as a pet. He should be out conquering the world!

And by no means, do I support irresponsible breeding. I wish it was illegal to breed all animals unless licensed to do so or something close to that concept that would prove successful. For me personally, I can't afford a high dollar dog. The dogs I do have though, get all the care necessary to keep them sharp, healthy and happy.

It's all about survival in this world and what works for certain people. Before I spend thousands of dollars on a dog that may still have the same issues that any other random dog has, my kids will get through college first and maybe pay off a vehicle. Not that I don't love the GSD and want what's best for their breed, I just can't be unreasonable by paying over a certain amount. I'm an everyday person with an average family income and probably can speak for more people out there than I know regarding these issues. 

Time for bed, I have a few hours before the little one gets up! :wild:


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

In all honestly 8/10 of my last 10 dogs have been BYB and they were/are great dogs not all were/are Shepherds. Can I tell the diffrence between them and my working dogs absolutely.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One thing to consider down the road is that a well bred dog can be had for about $1000-$1500. Most breeders have enough variation within the litter that one suitable for a pet can often be had and, honestly, a well bred GSD can be quite fine without a "job" ....... if it has an active and engaged life. That IS supporting quality breedings.

I hear the price objection all the time on my own search and rescue team but take that price over the life of the dog and it drops down pretty low. Lets go low and figure the dog lives 10 years. The cost of a $1500 dog comes to about $12.50 a month. Compare that to the cost of food and vet care! 

But, by all means, enjoy your lovely dog and we look forward to you spending time here. What I have seen is that the more experience people tend to have the less "judgemental" they seem to become. There are good reasons to do the research when selecting breeding stock so that you can stack the die in your favor. 

_Question. I know Bruce Brisson did this big article in a GSD magazine on how the male tail line influences the progeny. Is that meaningful at all? If so is it more meaningful for the males than the females? I know he broke it down to a handful of dogs _


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

At the end of the day, all dogs in AZ are pets. Why? B/c it's too **** hot outside!
If u don't train at 5am or 8pm...you ain't training unless you wanna die from heat exhaustion.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

Ace952 said:


> At the end of the day, all dogs in AZ are pets. Why? B/c it's too **** hot outside!
> If u don't train at 5am or 8pm...you ain't training unless you wanna die from heat exhaustion.


Believe it or not, there are at least a couple reputable breeders around here that I've found from my research but they don't sleep. They train during the 3rd shift.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> One thing to consider down the road is that a well bred dog can be had for about $1000-$1500. Most breeders have enough variation within the litter that one suitable for a pet can often be had and, honestly, a well bred GSD can be quite fine without a "job" ....... if it has an active and engaged life. That IS supporting quality breedings.
> 
> I hear the price objection all the time on my own search and rescue team but take that price over the life of the dog and it drops down pretty low. Lets go low and figure the dog lives 10 years. The cost of a $1500 dog comes to about $12.50 a month. Compare that to the cost of food and vet care!
> 
> ...


I've waited 2 months to post her pedigree and have been on this forum now on and off for maybe 3. I knew what I was getting into and what people may say regarding all of this, it's not a shocker, therefore, I'm not being defensive. I expected it to a certain degree. I did want to express my opinions though also, I know the differences (and that there is in fact a difference) in BYB dogs and dogs from reputable breeders but the diff is not always bad/good health. My older dog is almost 9 and the only health issue/concern we've EVER had with her is some inflammation of her third eyelids needing a daily ointment just in the last few months. I seen so many places here already where people lose their friend at a much younger age, and some, from reputable breeders.

As far as temperament goes, I realize there can be traits passed down in BYB that can make training more challenging, difficult or maybe not even possible for certain dogs. And aggression (with strangers, other pets, kids ect), I believe, has a lot to do with how the OWNER raises, teaches and handles the dog, even if there are "bad" traits present. I think that's one of the main reasons we all love the GSD, because they are all very smart and capable of responding to their owner.

I read somewhere that just because a dog has a title and is labeled "champion bloodlines" isn't saying a whole lot about the actual puppy you're buying for $1000-$3000 (depending on where you live). It's like saying my child is rich because her grandfather was a billionaire. His money or accomplishments doesn't reflect my child and her wealth. 

Again, not being defensive but just sharing my thoughts (like some of you are) regarding pedigrees and family history. I'm enjoying the banter. Perhaps I should get out more lol...


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I live in Phx. There are not a lot of "reputable breeders" out here. I don't even like the term.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

Ace952 said:


> I live in Phx. There are not a lot of "reputable breeders" out here. I don't even like the term.


I'm in Tucson and there is one in Marana down the road... I don't know anything about Phoenix. 

AZ is bigger than Phoenix though.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Very true. Rather I should have specified working lines. Dog world is a small one especially GSD.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

This is the breeder in Tucson.

Kennel von Arizona

They breed showlines if that is what you are looking for/are into. Reputable breeder is a subjective term.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Eliza said:


> I've waited 2 months to post her pedigree and have been on this forum now on and off for maybe 3. I knew what I was getting into and what people may say regarding all of this, it's not a shocker, therefore, I'm not being defensive. I expected it to a certain degree. I did want to express my opinions though also, I know the differences (and that there is in fact a difference) in BYB dogs and dogs from reputable breeders but the diff is not always bad/good health. My older dog is almost 9 and the only health issue/concern we've EVER had with her is some inflammation of her third eyelids needing a daily ointment just in the last few months. I seen so many places here already where people lose their friend at a much younger age, and some, from reputable breeders.
> 
> As far as temperament goes, I realize there can be traits passed down in BYB that can make training more challenging, difficult or maybe not even possible for certain dogs. And aggression (with strangers, other pets, kids ect), I believe, has a lot to do with how the OWNER raises, teaches and handles the dog, even if there are "bad" traits present. I think that's one of the main reasons we all love the GSD, because they are all very smart and capable of responding to their owner.
> 
> ...


 I think you are partially right. If Grandad is worth a ****, then all of you are rich. That being said how does his wealth not reflect on your child and her wealth. Its her bloodline. Compared to a child who's grandfather or father was an average Joe they dont even live on the same planet basically.

Like I said most of my life my dogs have been BYB. There is a diffrence in the dog overall. Intellegence is IMHO a major diffrence when you have a dog with no testing done for generations and put them next to a dog with all the above in its backround.I would rather pay the price for a dog then pay the bill for heath problems, or the medical bills for a bite.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes, I suppose the term is subjective. 

Depends on how much "nerd rage" is involved. I think that term fits here.

"Reputable" should mean (from what I understand and I could be wrong) that the breeder does all of the health screening recommended and gets the exams certified. Knows the traits and has a goal in mind when breeding. Also, includes their dogs in extracurricular activities to have documentation of their abilities. And as always, willing to take back any dog they sold under any circumstances, if needed, to ensure the dog is taken care of.

Not sure what more can be done to be considered "reputable"

Please tell me if I missed something.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> I think you are partially right. If Grandad is worth a ****, then all of you are rich. That being said how does his wealth not reflect on your child and her wealth. Its her bloodline.
> 
> 
> > Just because a relative is rich, does not mean their money trickles down to you. In no way shape or form does their wealth make you wealthy. Maybe you got lucky or know someone who did but it doesn't prove anything about the drive or ability that the grandchild would have to go out and earn large sums of money. It's more so in how pups and that "child" would be raised, imo.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Then why even mess with an "AKC Registered Purebred GSD"? 

I think you are oversimplifying things. Dog breeds come from a limited gene pool and are bred for specific characteristics. People are all mutts unless you get into inbred populations (and, like dogs, those populations have started being very careful at matchmaking because of genetic diseases!). I truly believe the nature/nurture argument is weighted differently in humans than dogs based on decades of owning dogs and raising my own kids and seeing relatives' children growing up.

The traits that are selected for in dog breeding are simple and genetic. If a dog does not have working drives, all the training in the world will not put them there. You may take a poorly equipped dog to the peak of its potential but not past it. Sorry..there I have worked with enough dogs to soundly disagree that it is "all about the training". 

I really don't worry about BYB dogs "messing up the gene pool" because, honestly, they don't leave their stamp on the breed as nobody uses them to carry on. I don't even care if folks breed friendly fluffy dogs that have no resembelance to the noble working dog that was the original vision. 

However, people often breed these dogs to have a "protector" and the people that do that often have no understanding of the difference between a fearful dog always on the defense, but who will run at the first chance, vs a confident dog who is not looking for a fight but will not back down if pushed. 

How many people on this forum have dogs who must be coddled their entire lives because they are fearful shadows of what they could be? Do you think all these dogs would be somehow different if they had been raised by a better owner-these are dogs raised by folks doing all the right things but still having fearful dogs. It is genetic. I have seen a dog who was shoved into a crate the first 7 months of its life. Its feet were deformed and they had to work a lot with the dog to bring some normalcy to its structure. No socialization. Great genetics. The dog bounced back and completely overcame its early horrible life.....

And, then, you have genetic diseases and orthopedic issues. Dice that could be easily enough stacked in favor of producing with proper health clearances down the line.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I too am over here with apparently "just a pet" ..and that's ok with me. She's one smart beautiful cookie and I'm sure she's going to be just fine at whatever it is she decides to do. 
I consider the breeder I got her from reputable. I've been in constant contact with them and they have been very helpful in everything from feeding to health ...the list goes on. They gave me the pedigree papers and never once led me to believe she would be anything other than a good companion. I too however was interested to see her lineage and see the champions the mom had on her side. 

unless somebody is really "qualified" to tell you what all of this stuff means..again it's just some "opinion" and some "basic knowledge" that they are giving you. I always take the info I'm given here as that. It's not set in stone right...it's a personal theory, good guess ..and it gives me a starting off point to research more on my own. 

anyhow welcome ( from another just a pet owner)


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't disagree with anything at all that you've said in this post. It's completely consistent with my own experience. But I do want to say that this:



jocoyn said:


> You may take a poorly equipped dog to the peak of its potential but not past it.


is not a bad journey to make once in your life. I'm on it right now. I'm learning a lot.

You're absolutely right, it's impossible to overwrite genetics. (Boy, have I ever learned THAT lesson!) But sometimes, depending on what you're doing, a less-than-perfect dog's peak potential might be a little higher than anybody guessed at first. Never know until you push for it.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

Some great points. I am not saying you can take a poorly bred dog and turn him into a champion, never did.

I just wanted to simply state that dogs who don't come from "reputable" breeders are still smart and can be very good dogs. 

By stating the comparison of a rich relative, I was trying to say, just because your new pup has "billionaire" genes doesn't mean it's going to be a champ or show dog unless there is training behind it. How good his genes are determines what he can do, sure, but that doesn't mean others can't do impressive things either or earn awards.

I just don't think it's fair people look down on some dogs just because they aren't your interpretation of a certain bred GSD.

People say "don't be defensive" but when it seems there is no humility present in some responses, it makes me annoyed rather than defensive. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and neither will any dog that I choose to own be.

Some BYB from what I can tell, do the best they can, love the dogs with everything they are but still need to survive. Afterall, the majority of the human population who want a nice purebred GSD, who is capable of giving their owner what they need, go to BYB and have the best dog of their life.

I guess, a big part is what the owner wants in the dog but you don't always get what you pay for. A dog from a BYB trying to make a living, could be and is for a lot of people, a perfectly good and well behaved animal and in some cases, end up with better health and a longer life.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Eliza said:


> I am not saying you can take a poorly bred dog and turn him into a champion, never did.


Well, _I'll_ say you can. Not that it isn't much easier with a well-bred one!


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Off topic Im sorry Eliza you did not say billionaire cousin you said grandfather and if you know someone who has that and hasnt got a dime to stand on im sorry for them. LOL

On topic Jocoyn maid my point mostly its a Fact that alot of the things that make a dog what we picture it being is genetic. Example; Its like painting a portrait. If all the supplies are there you can make a beautiful potrait. If they are lacking the best artist in the world could only do so much. No doubt ALL of our BYB dogs are wonderful pets loved members of our familys, they just are not the same as the purpose bred dogs. 
IMO Anyone who breeds for pets alone cannot be considered Reputable. If they do not compete in any venue how is that benificial to the breed? It isn't that is supposed to be the goal of every REPUTABLE breeder not to put money in there pockets or support there own pets or whatever reason its all usually financially driven. Before you form an opinion about what a dog is or should be( or anything for that matter) I feel it is essential to be educated about the subject. Please dont take my opinion the wrong way. Not an angry tone.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are still many BYB dogs in SAR, LE, and military where pedigree means nothing and performance means everything. Love your dog and enjoy life with your dog....get your dog involved in some activities and grow a wonderful rich bond. If your dog has good health and good temperament, you are very fortunate regardless of origin of your dog. Many people on this forum have dogs from reputable breeders that if you said Boo, they would jump in their arms. Enjoy your dog!


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> There are still many BYB dogs in SAR, LE, and military where pedigree means nothing and performance means everything. Love your dog and enjoy life with your dog....get your dog involved in some activities and grow a wonderful rich bond. If your dog has good health and good temperament, you are very fortunate regardless of origin of your dog. Many people on this forum have dogs from reputable breeders that if you said Boo, they would jump in their arms. Enjoy your dog!


Very well stated. I intend to keep enrolling Roxy in all different kinds of stuff to see what she really likes doing. My pedigree might not say her kin are working champions or show champions...who is to say that Roxy couldn't be either of those. That piece of paper doesn't mean anything if her heart is in it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pedigree means nothing to the end user - performance means everything - performance is ensured by effort and wise choices and eliminating all things which would shorten a performance life.

I guess it depends whose backyard it is ! 



by all means love your dog --


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know I don't think ANYBODY has said that a dog from a BYB is any less of a dog and cannot, possibly, if things align properly do great things. 

But careful selection "stacks the deck" and increases the odds of getting what you are looking for, particularly if you are looking for a dog with certain traits.

I guess I have personally seen more of the results of throwing dogs together with no sound research producing pups with problems than with breeders who actually do things like x-ray, study the pros and cons of the other dogs in the lines etc. and breed for temperament and working ability along with structural soundness health and longevity. 

That is all. Been there, done that (BYB) and suffered the consequences in years past and, going forward, if I get a puppy, I will stick with breeders I trust know their breeding stock and that they are likely produce what I am looking for. For an adult, meh, who cares?..if you get a young adult what you see is what you get.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> You know I don't think ANYBODY has said that a dog from a BYB is any less of a dog and cannot, possibly, if things align properly do great things.


You're right, no one has actually said that here in this post but I have read it elsewhere on this forum.

I do love her very much and didn't mean to stir up quite a debate. I appreciate all the responses. 

I have a couple more names I'd like to through out there if you all don't mind looking and them and giving me some thought? I promise I won't say anymore about being a "pet" or "BYB" dog if that's the case.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i use to own a byb dog and use to think a dog is a dog. train it right and it'll be awesome. i use to think people who pay more than a grand for a dog are crazy. i now own a czech working line dog and the difference is night and day! he is just so solid and everything he does is with gusto. i feel like people who make statements that byb dogs are just as good have never been around a working line dog.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> i use to own a byb dog and use to think a dog is a dog. train it right and it'll be awesome. i use to think people who pay more than a grand for a dog are crazy. i now own a czech working line dog and the difference is night and day! he is just so solid and everything he does is with gusto. i feel like people who make statements that byb dogs are just as good have never been around a working line dog.


Happy for you that you found a dog you love. Actually, I have never been around a working line dog, because I don't need a working line dog.

My older BYB dog, who is almost 9, is a very nice example of a "good" dog. Sure, I don't have experience with the fancy ones or champions to compare her to but based on the fact that she has never attacked anyone, never escaped or attempted to escape the yard, has had no health issues yet she remains a loyal, intelligent and protective member of our family. She doesn't bark constantly for no reason, she is friendly with other animals and people we introduce her to, including cats, babies and young children. I'm in no way, trying to defend her or her quality, I am just stating some facts about her to let you know where I'm coming from and why I feel the way I do.

Each person has a right to their preference and opinion.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

As I told another member here, I love these dogs and will likely own them for the rest of my life. My luck has been good so far but my puppy is only my second GSD. I do not want my luck to run out by being careless so I will continue my research and I will learn a lot more as time moves along, enabling me to make good decisions. Everyone starts somewhere with what they know and I have a long, enjoyable road ahead of me with my German Shepherds and the ones to come. :wub:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Eliza said:


> My older BYB dog, who is almost 9, is a very nice example of a "good" dog. Sure, I don't have experience with the fancy ones or champions to compare her to but based on the fact that she has never attacked anyone, never escaped or attempted to escape the yard, has had no health issues yet she remains a loyal, intelligent and protective member of our family. She doesn't bark constantly for no reason, she is friendly with other animals and people we introduce her to, including cats, babies and young children. I'm in no way, trying to defend her or her quality, I am just stating some facts about her to let you know where I'm coming from and why I feel the way I do.
> 
> Each person has a right to their preference and opinion.


My mother's little Havanese can do all that stuff too - should he be bred? Doesn't mean he has the correct temperament for what a GSD should be. A dog that has the qualities to pass a CGC is a good pet, but really has nothing to do with breeding. Any pet with a decent temperament can do that stuff. The GSD's that are bred should be the best of the best. 

Not singling out your girl. I'd say this about my own dog too.


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## Eliza (Mar 17, 2013)

No one said anything about me breeding my puppy in question.


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