# How to aviod "bat ears"?



## UrSun

I found a lot of useful information about coloring and you guys have helped me crashing the question mark in my head. Thank all of you!










Here is another big confusion in my mind:

I found there were different types of shepherd's ears. Majorly two types.
One is socalled "bat ears" like this (the right one):









Another is the typical beautiful ears:









And there seems to be three different puppy ears:
A:









B:









and C:









There might be a variation of C type ears (maybe C at a greater age, or maybe the same C shot from another angle? I'm not sure...) 









My question is, how to indentify the pup that will get a typical beautiful ears (not the "bat ear")?


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## Crabtree

HI UR, umm, I don't know the answer to your question, but speaking of bat ears. What kinda cat is that in your avatar?
It's a cutey!

I'm interested in hearng the answer to this one also.


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## UrSun

It's a Africa serval. 



> Originally Posted By: crabbyHI UR, umm, I don't know the answer to your question, but speaking of bat ears. What kinda cat is that in your avatar?
> It's a cutey!
> 
> I'm interested in hearng the answer to this one also.


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## southerncharm

You really can't tell whether a young puppy will have 'bat ears' or not. A pup can have big floppy ears one day, and nice standing ears 2 days later. 

Looking at that 'bat ears' picture, it seems to me that the issue is placement of the ears on the head, so perhaps it would help if you were pick a pup from a breeder whose dogs have correct ear placement.

While it's good to look for a breeder whose dogs have nice strong ears, it's still not a guarantee that your pup's ears will stand correctly.


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## UrSun

I see. Thank you!











> Originally Posted By: southerncharmYou really can't tell whether a young puppy will have 'bat ears' or not. A pup can have big floppy ears one day, and nice standing ears 2 days later.
> 
> Looking at that 'bat ears' picture, it seems to me that the issue is placement of the ears on the head, so perhaps it would help if you were pick a pup from a breeder whose dogs have correct ear placement.
> 
> While it's good to look for a breeder whose dogs have nice strong ears, it's still not a guarantee that your pup's ears will stand correctly.


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## sungmina

I had one puppy (showline) with huge ears, they were down at 8 weeks (like the last puppy picture) and weren't fully up until 4.5-5 months. Sometimes she will carry her ears like the dog in the first picture, usually when she is relaxed or sleeping. However, when she is alert, she carries her ears forward like the dog in the second picture.

My other puppy is 12 weeks old, his ears were up at 6 weeks (working line) and looked similar in carriage to the puppy in picture B. When he is resting or sleeping, his ears are off to the side, when he is awake or alert he puts his ears forward. 

I think shepherds can carry their ears both ways depending on their mood. I do notice that my working line puppy carries his ears a little higher generally, but that might be because they are much smaller. As far as telling who will carry their ears better, I'm not really sure, but I would guess the dogs with smaller, lighter ears would carry them higher.


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## UrSun

Thank you, Jkim! I am with you.








BTW I noticed sable/working line pups have two major differences from show lines.
One is they seem to have smaller ears. 
Another is their color is light, but will grow to be much darker when they're older. Show line dogs are opposite.



> Originally Posted By: JkimI had one puppy (showline) with huge ears, they were down at 8 weeks (like the last puppy picture) and weren't fully up until 4.5-5 months. Sometimes she will carry her ears like the dog in the first picture, usually when she is relaxed or sleeping. However, when she is alert, she carries her ears forward like the dog in the second picture.
> 
> My other puppy is 12 weeks old, his ears were up at 6 weeks (working line) and looked similar in carriage to the puppy in picture B. When he is resting or sleeping, his ears are off to the side, when he is awake or alert he puts his ears forward.
> 
> I think shepherds can carry their ears both ways depending on their mood. I do notice that my working line puppy carries his ears a little higher generally, but that might be because they are much smaller. As far as telling who will carry their ears better, I'm not really sure, but I would guess the dogs with smaller, lighter ears would carry them higher.


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## MrLeadFoot

I see no problem whatsoever with the ears of the dog in Pic 1. Looks to me that the dog was simply very relaxed and happy, which resulted in it "relaxing" its ears when the pic was taken. My dog does this sometimes when she's tired and happy, but for the most part she carries her ears like the dog in Pic 2.


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## lixy

The "bat ears" are just the way the dog has its ears positioned at the time.

Here is my dog Chaos with "bat ears": 









His "normal" ears:


















Check 'em out backwards:


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## Papanapa

I also think it is just the way they are holding their ears. Marley's are all different crazy ways depending on what she is doing. They stand beautifully and have since she was only a few months old.


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## UrSun

I see, so there is no "bat ears", only floppy or standing up ears?
I didn't see shepherds very offen in the real life. Shame on me.











> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI see no problem whatsoever with the ears of the dog in Pic 1. Looks to me that the dog was simply very relaxed and happy, which resulted in it "relaxing" its ears when the pic was taken. My dog does this sometimes when she's tired and happy, but for the most part she carries her ears like the dog in Pic 2.


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## UrSun

Now I know. Hehe











> Originally Posted By: lixyThe "bat ears" are just the way the dog has its ears positioned at the time.
> 
> Here is my dog Chaos with "bat ears":
> 
> His "normal" ears:
> 
> Check 'em out backwards:


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## southerncharm

I've actually seen dogs whose ears are always held in that 'bat ear' position when up...


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## MrLeadFoot

I'll tell you what, though. That last pic of the pup in your original post that you labled "C" would scare the heck out of me. I would be highly suspect of ears that look like that, even on a pup.

From my experience, since you seem as concerned as I am about good ears, you'll feel most comfortable if you can get a pup that has one ear standing, or the ears at least look strong even at a young age, like in some of the other pics. Touch the ears. They should be relatively thick, too,. Personally, I wouldn't take that last pup, even if you paid me, because although those type of ears might stand later, I wouldn't want to chance it.

I mean, in the 2nd to the last pic, where less than 1/2 of the pup's ear height flops at the tip still shows that there's some strength because the majority of the ear is still up, but when they double over and flop to the front as much as that last pup pic, yikes! 

Here's a pic of a previous male of mine who had ears like the pup in that last pic, and even after long taping they turned out like this









That's not to say that the tips in the 2nd to the last pic are guaranteed to stand, either. You never know.

Some people say that most GSDs ears don't fully stand until they're 5 - 6 months, but in my experience, they can easily stand within 2 -3 months, and stay up.

But, again, my personal opinion is that you should see at LEAST SOME type of sign even when young that the ears have potential. Other signs (besides one standing and one flopping) is if they are up and leaning, like in Silhouette 1; they flop out to the side, like airplane wings, but don't have a decided fold to them, because if a crease develops in the cartilage, even taping may not help.

Maybe the following two pics will help depict what I'm saying. This is how I choose my pups with good ears. Not a science, but I believe it is sensible.

Pic 1 is of my current dog when I got her at 9 weeks old. While her right ear is already standing, her left ear is an "airplane wing" ear. Note, however, it just bends over and out to the side but doesn't have a FOLD where it bends. I wish I had a pic of my neighbor's 10 month old. She has always had creases in the cartilage, so when they flop, you can see a fold whereas my 9 week pup's ear just sort of bends over. I tried to tell my neighbor to tape them early, but they didn't listen and now it's too late, they're never going to stand. But, then again, with creases in the cartilage, even taping is no guarantee.










This pic is of her at 11 weeks









This pic is of her at 13 weeks


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## BlackGSD

I HAVE seen dogs that NEVER hold their ears straight "up" and always look "bat eared". But with most dogs it is just the way the dog is carrying them at the moment.


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## UrSun

So that is a potential issue...








I took a look at the pictures again, and the placement of the ears on the head are quite different. I'll keep it in mind.











> Originally Posted By: southerncharmI've actually seen dogs whose ears are always held in that 'bat ear' position when up...


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI'll tell you what, though. That last pic of the pup in your original post that you labled "C" would scare the heck out of me. I would be highly suspect of ears that look like that, even on a pup.
> 
> From my experience, since you seem as concerned as I am about good ears, you'll feel most comfortable if you can get a pup that has one ear standing, or the ears at least look strong even at a young age, like in some of the other pics. Touch the ears. They should be relatively thick, too,. Personally, I wouldn't take that last pup, even if you paid me, because although those type of ears might stand later, I wouldn't want to chance it.
> 
> I mean, in the 2nd to the last pic, where less than 1/2 of the pup's ear height flops at the tip still shows that there's some strength because the majority of the ear is still up, but when they double over and flop to the front as much as that last pup pic, yikes!


Yes yes, I was about to draw exact the same conclusion after observed the pictures again. I think what you're saying has just proved everything. Now I feel much more confident about the conclusion!

I'm taking the notes. Very very useful information. Thanks a lot!


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## UrSun

The following three are very important details. 
Your shepherd is very beautiful. If I'll get a pup, I'll go for a girl too. May I see the current photo of her?









A slight digression... picture C and the last picture are from a relatively high price kennel. So price really is NOT a thing that can guarantee a good dog. 




> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> Some people say that most GSDs ears don't fully stand until they're 5 - 6 months, but in my experience, they can easily stand within 2 -3 months, and stay up.





> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> But, again, my personal opinion is that you should see at LEAST SOME type of sign even when young that the ears have potential.





> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> Other signs (besides one standing and one flopping) is if they are up and leaning, like in Silhouette 1; they flop out to the side, like airplane wings, but don't have a decided fold to them, because if a crease develops in the cartilage, even taping may not help.
> 
> Pic 1 is of my current dog when I got her at 9 weeks old. While her right ear is already standing, her left ear is an "airplane wing" ear. Note, however, it just bends over and out to the side but doesn't have a FOLD where it bends. I wish I had a pic of my neighbor's 10 month old. She has always had creases in the cartilage, so when they flop, you can see a fold whereas my 9 week pup's ear just sort of bends over.


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## middleofnowhere

"A slight digression... picture C and the last picture are from a relatively high price kennel. So price really is NOT a thing that can guarantee a good dog. "

While your last sentence is true, I strongly disagree that ear set determines whether you have a good dog or not. There's a lot more to it than that. I would be more concerned with temperment and health (hips, elbows, back, epi & so on) than I would be about ear set. I do agree with people who say that the ear set depends upon the mood. Some dogs may only bring their ears forward when they are very focused on something unfamiliar and distant.

At twelve weeks barker the elder had ears that crossed in the middle, the late barker the younger had ears that were perfectly errect from the time I first saw her at 8 weeks or earlier. Both had upright ears throughout their lives although if BTE is very intent her ears will touch one another.


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## onyx'girl

I just saw an almost 6 mo. old pup from "a relatively high price kennel" and his ears are soft. NOT saying he is from good lines, just a high price kennel which has been asked about recently in the breeders forums.


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## Chris Wild

To guess what the earset of the pup will look like as an adult, look at the earset of the parents. This is the best indicator. Looking at the parents is your best bet in guessing everything about "looks" from structure to color to earset.

As other's mentioned, what you described as a "bat ear" look is a very common one when the dog is holding his ears in a relaxed state. Whereas the erect ears is a state of alertness. Dogs will hold their ears in various positions based on their mood. Just because you see a picture of a dog with "bat ears" doesn't mean that dog's ears are always that way. It may just be the way the dog is holding them at that moment.

As for puppy ears, puppy ears go through all sorts of stages of up, down, half up/half down, one up/one down, other one up/other one down, tilted in, tilted out. This is normal puppy development and what different positions a pups ears go through during puppyhood has no bearing on how they will be as an adult.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: southerncharmI've actually seen dogs whose ears are always held in that 'bat ear' position when up...


Me too, I know of one. I guess I would describe the earset as "wide".


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere There's a lot more to it than that. I would be more concerned with temperment and health (hips, elbows, back, epi & so on) than I would be about ear set.


Yes you're right. What I really mean was "good looking dogs" not "good dogs." Temperament and health are more complicated issues then appearance. Right now I only know little about that. I feel excited there are a lot more things to learn.











> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere Both had upright ears throughout their lives although if BTE is very intent her ears will touch one another.


I'm not familiar with the term BTE? I kinda like the looking of "ears touching one another" when the dog is a pup. Does it hurt when it's a adult?


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## UrSun

Nod.











> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI just saw an almost 6 mo. old pup from "a relatively high price kennel" and his ears are soft. NOT saying he is from good lines, just a high price kennel which has been asked about recently in the breeders forums.


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## MrLeadFoot

> Quote: May I see the current photo of her?


Sorry it took me so long. Here she is today, at 8 months:


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## KC_Pike

She is beautiful Mr LF!


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## UrSun

Hi MrLeadFoot, your shepherd is very beautiful!








How come her color doesn't fade? I mean, she has almost the same dark color as the one she had when she was a pup. It's rare, isn't it? And pretty, absolutely!



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> Sorry it took me so long. Here she is today, at 8 months:


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## MrLeadFoot

Thanks for the compliments, folks.

He color has actually changed quite a bit, although when I look at the pics, it's difficult to tell.

Her face was very dark as a young pup, with her head being almost completely back. If you look closely, on the very top of her head, she has now has two patches of red which are unbelievably perfectly symmetrical, with a black line separating them, kind of like when someone parts their hair down the middle. Those patches remind me of Moe's hair on that olod show The Three Stooges, except hers are red.

When she was very young, she was almost bi-color looking but she also had alot of red, too, so I termed her as a "tri-color". Since then, most of the red has been replaced by tan, with the exception of the patches of hair on the top of her head, and the backs of her ears, which are pretty much red. although when she was young the backs of her ears were completely black.

He forehead is also starting to lighten up slightly, and I suspect that her face will eventually be more like the dog in pic 2 of the original post. The red in her cheeks is all tan now, too, and all the black she had in her chest is now all tan.

Interestingly, the lower part of her rear legs seem to change frequently from red to tan, then back again.

It's a wonder how much they change, over time, but I'm sure my family notices it more than anyone else.


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## Amaruq

There are dogs with poor ear sets and good ear sets. If looks (color and earset and so forth) are very important to you then you may want to look for an older puppy or an adult or better yet a rescue.


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootThose patches remind me of Moe's hair on that olod show The Three Stooges, except hers are red.


LOL.











> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootHe forehead is also starting to lighten up slightly, and I suspect that her face will eventually be more like the dog in pic 2 of the original post. The red in her cheeks is all tan now, too, and all the black she had in her chest is now all tan.
> 
> Interestingly, the lower part of her rear legs seem to change frequently from red to tan, then back again.


That's interesting. Looking forward to her new photos in the future!


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## UrSun

Yup I'll keep in mind. Thanks. Right now I'm only an "armchair strategist." 



> Originally Posted By: AmaruqThere are dogs with poor ear sets and good ear sets. If looks (color and earset and so forth) are very important to you then you may want to look for an older puppy or an adult or better yet a rescue.


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## Amaruq

Nothing wrong with an armchair strategist.







You can learn a LOT about structure and stuff in the critique my dog section. The area where members post pictures of their dogs to see how they match up to the breed standard.


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## UrSun

I had never seen that section. Thank you!











> Originally Posted By: AmaruqNothing wrong with an armchair strategist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can learn a LOT about structure and stuff in the critique my dog section. The area where members post pictures of their dogs to see how they match up to the breed standard.


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## Maedchen

I'd rather have a dog with bat (huge) ears, then too small ears. Some workingline GSD's have way too short ears and they look almost Akita'ish- similar to your puppy pic B. I don't like that at all.


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## kidkhmer

Just as a matter of interest, is a baby whose belly button is an "outy" any less beautiful or loved than one whose belly button is an "inny" ? I think obsessing over such physical traits in a dog who is not going to make a living as a super model is a bit silly don't you ?


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## verge

I vote for "bat ears."


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## VChurch

I have noticed like a lot of other people mentioned, that Minna's ears are usually on top of her head in normal placement; however when she's tired of super relaxed they will end up more on the side of her head like the 'bat ears'....I love them either way!!!!


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## blueshepherd

When I got Sarge (my black and tan) I was lucky because he was out of a litter of my father's so I got pick of the litter. And I was able to help whelp and be around through the whole growing process. I chose him because his ears stood at 3 weeks and none of the others did. I wanted them all though lol. I don't know if its just a myth but I was also told not to play with a puppy's ears because you can mess up the cartilage. Scared me so I don't! His ears went through the crazys and I wasn't sure if they ever would be right but they ended up setting well. I do believe there are pics somewhere on here of his crazy stages! But his ears still go all different ways during his mood swings (happy, relaxed, pouting, and alert)


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## selzer

I LOVE ears that have EXPRESSION. 

All of my dogs move their ears around. Jenna and Joy have good ear set, Babsy and Milla's are the worst. But they have the most character in their ears. 

They will stick their ears straight out like and airplane. They will twist them in that position -- "What was that you wanted me to do?" They can also put them straight up and down at attention. But they naturally hold them a little slanted, not straight up and down like pokers. 

Puppy ears, Jenna's were canopied over her head, while Babsy had one crumpled up. But as long as the base looks like they will stand, and they are not over thick and heavy, I think they will generally go up. 

Ear story:

The one on the far left is Babsy, the one in the middle is Jenna, the one on the right is Cujo, ten weeks:









Six months, Jenna:









Babs:









Cujo:









Jenna at 1 year:









Babs:


















This is Milla -- those ears look ok:









Milla Now:




































Oh they are up, and straight up and down at times, not when she sees the camera though.

I think she just likes to show off her cow lick.


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## Dainerra

I always heard "bat ears" used to refer to the ears being HUGE, esp on a young puppy. When Rayden was a youngster, his ears grew 3X faster than his body. They looked like 1980s satellite dishes. We called him "Bat Dog"
They finally fit his head now, thankfully. His ears are up, down, forward, back, just depends on his mood and focus. He will also do 1 forward, 1 back if he is focusing on something in front and I am talking behind him.


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## Chicagocanine

I agree, look at the ear set of the parents. If they have a wide ear set (what you're calling 'bat ears') the puppies may be more likely to have it too.




UrSun said:


> There might be a variation of C type ears (maybe C at a greater age, or maybe the same C shot from another angle? I'm not sure...)


This puppy looks like it may have "soft" ears which might not come up at all.





UrSun said:


> Another is their color is light, but will grow to be much darker when they're older. Show line dogs are opposite.


I don't think that is a working vs. show line thing, I think it is a difference in the different colors. Sables tend to start lighter and darken as they age, while black and tan/red dogs (blanket or saddle back) tend to start off with a lot of black and get more tan/red as they get older.

The reason you might see more dogs who get darker in working lines and lighter in show lines is not a difference between the lines but rather the colors-- more working line dogs tend to be sable, and show line tend to be black and tan/red.


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## bocron

Just an question to the OP. The second pic in your post looks like the sire of my dog. Is that a picture of Yash von der Bastillie?


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## Liesje

Not the OP but yes it is Yash.


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## idahospud49

I think I must have had one of the rare exceptions to the sables getting darker. My Amadeus got much lighter as he got older. At about 7 months old he looked like a dark/black sable. (Depending on your definition). When he died at 7 years old he was much lighter. 



I don't think that is a working vs. show line thing, I think it is a difference in the different colors. Sables tend to start lighter and darken as they age, while black and tan/red dogs (blanket or saddle back) tend to start off with a lot of black and get more tan/red as they get older.

The reason you might see more dogs who get darker in working lines and lighter in show lines is not a difference between the lines but rather the colors-- more working line dogs tend to be sable, and show line tend to be black and tan/red.[/QUOTE]


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