# Convoluted issues; resource guarding, littermates, you name it. (long)



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I've been trying to gather my thoughts for several days on how to write this post. Sorry for the length.

Dogs being discussed:

~ Bailey, male, 16 months, recently neutered, still on light duty.
~ Tucker, his brother, same age obviously, brought into household at abt 9 months and neutered soon after.
~ Suri, female, 5 yr old Shiba Inu, the "cop" of the house. Fearless.
~ Dolly, female, 9-1/2 y/o American Eskimo, very gentle personality, mostly blind.

Before, I might've said Bailey's resource guarding came on suddenly, but that's not true. As I thought about it, as I re-read my own posts, it was working up -- very slowly -- but it was escalating right under my eyes.

Tucker and Bailey, the two littermates got along very well for quite awhile. (months) Then a few tiffs. I learned as I went what the signals were. Things escalated and the tiffs became closer together. Always Bailey starting it. 

It was resource guarding. It was guarding me and food.

I did recognize this and learned to change my own ways of dealing with things. There was improvement.

Then one day I was making dinner and opened the fridge and Tucker was right there... and Bailey went at him. So the food guarding had jumped a peg on seriousness level. Prior to this, I could be out in the kitchen for an hour or more, cooking, dropping things on accident and no fights or issues. The dogs might rush to pick up the thing I'd dropped, but no fights. For months we could work obedience, dogs side by side being given commands and no problem. Their one-year old birthday pic shows two dogs in a stay with birthday cake in front of them; no problem.... 

_(Note: the food guarding is only towards dogs. Bailey has no issue with me putting my hands in his food bowl, walking by, etc. He's perfectly fine with humans being near his food. Also, this issue hadn't really come to attn because all dogs are fed seperately.)_ 

THEN things ramped up with a bad backyard fight. First fight that *seriously* scared me. First fight I couldn't break up physically or by voice. I had Tucker on a tieout (he'd fence jumped recently) and Bailey free. I was walking between them when it broke out, but not paying attn to either one. I ran for the water hose, but by then time I got ready to spray, it was over. It was horribly nasty sounding and appearing. I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?

I then went with keeping Bailey on lead indoors. This turned out to be the wrong thing to do. I was advised this was a bad idea, but didn't get that info in time... I had Bailey tethered to me and my blind girl came stumbling up and he went at her.  Scared the crap out of her. Gave her a teeny mark below her eye, which did make the area swell and upset me tremendously. I barely interacted with Bailey for the next couple of days, I was so upset. I am quite sure the tethering was the problem there, as he doesn't pay any mind to her otherwise. I feel horrible for that.

I allowed no interaction between boys for a couple of days. I then slowly let them be around one another. Bailey would hackle almost instantly -- all the way down his back. Tucker would hackle in reaction to Bailey. Once I distracted them with our routine game of fetch, they'd focus on that and ignore each other. If Tucker got too close to Bailey, though, Bailey would hackle up. It was tense and I'm sure my tension did add to that, even if I was trying to be cool.

I was being pretty strong-handed at this point with Bailey. Watching him like a hawk and reprimanding him. I had the hose already turned on and waiting, just in case.

It was like Bailey had taken an overnight dislike to Tucker. These are dogs that have laid together, played together, licked each others ears and other parts... dogs that enjoyed one another for months.

So we had a few days of some rather high tension, but no further fights. Then Bailey was neutered, so we're on full rotate/crate now. 

So now I am wondering how to "re-introduce" the boys when Bailey's neuter has healed. Start from stratch, dogs on either side of a fence? Get a behaviorist involved? 

I should add -- my Shiba Inu, (Suri,) is the *bomb*. This girl puts up with absolutely nothing. Neither dog challenges Suri. I have *none* of Bailey's issues with Suri -- he doesn't dare challenge her and he knows it and doesn't try.

Is Bailey just being a bully?? Tucker is a nice dog that never instigates anything. Dolly is an even sweeter dog that never instigates anything.. and here is Bailey, going after those two -- but never the dog that will not put up with his crap - (Suri) ?? I tell you, he wouldn't even begin to get snotty with that girl. She is definitely the strongest personality in the dog end of the household. She 'controls' the blind girl by not letting her get too close to the steps when I've accidentally left the door open... she is the true "cop" of the house.... She's sure won a lot of my respect the way she bosses these big white boys around.

But anyway... I am sorry that was long and quite involved. Funny how life was pretty good for awhile with this pack and now we have this upset.

Rotate/crate will continue until I feel Bailey is completely past neuter healing and that's why I am posting now... trying to get some ideas and info for when real life resumes. 

And yes, re-homing Tucker is on the table, but that's not what I want to hear at this point. I'd be very interested in hearing ideas as to management, my failures, what I should do on the re-introduction, future management, etc.. I'm not saying I won't re-home, but I'd really prefer people just pick apart what I've said and find where I've failed, so I can find where I need to work on, what I can do different, etc..

Thank you very much if you made it this far.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This is just a question, but give it some thought. Do you think at this point rehoming Tucker will help Bailey's issues? I only ask because I read that he went for one of the girls too. If Bailey is having issues, it might have started with Tucker, but they might have came out whether Tucker was there or not. It sounds like Bailey is the problem. I don't think it would hurt to talk to a behaviorist at this point. They can come in, watch, and then give you a good idea of what is going on. It wouldn't hurt. I wish you lots of luck, it can't be easy for you and I'm sorry your going through this.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?


Not at all. Most skirmishes (especially the loud ones) are mainly a lot of bluster, air-snapping, and noise, and very little injury. However, this can escalate to bloody battles. It's the quiet fights that are deadly serious, because a dog can't make a lot of noise when his mouth is full.



> It was like Bailey had taken an overnight dislike to Tucker. These are dogs that have laid together, played together, licked each others ears and other parts... dogs that enjoyed one another for months.


Yep. Pretty typical of "littermate syndrome".... they will love each other one day and want to kill each other the next. I could have predicted this. 

Honestly, I think you should crate and rotate for the next six weeks, or however long you have Tucker. By that time, the hormones will have gone from Bailey's system and his behavior may be less intense. Get back to us about it then.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?


No, not really. Many dog fights sound horrid but aren't even physical. 

I have to say...your assessment of the others in the "picture" may be way off.
You never know what is really going on - Suri bossing the "big white boys" around may in fact be triggering Bailey's issues, as he's frustrated that he's not "top dog" and going to prove to _someone _he's a boss, and so picking on Tucker as he's "easy" to boss around.

Our dogs get along most the time. One, Coda, is "everyone's friend". But we added a particular foster last winter, and Coda started beating up dogs I have seen him be best friends with.
It was alarming. I had to crate him the rest of the time that dog was here.

Dog relationships are more fluid than folks realize.
I honestly think neutering Bailey was put off far too long and I think you may see improvement, but don't intro through the fence.

I'd crate them up and take them to a neutral spot if it was me. Walk them alongside each other, etc. but no nose-to-nose, and plenty of down time in the home.

You're going to have to step up leadership in a big way - don't let _anyone_ be a bully or boss around in there for a while, anyway.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LOL Free, I hit enter and saw your reply. 
Glad we're on the same page, makes me think my instincts are "on" with this.
I'm very used to multiple dog homes and dogs entering and leaving this multi dog home, too


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> THEN things ramped up with a bad backyard fight. First fight that *seriously* scared me. First fight I couldn't break up physically or by voice. I had Tucker on a tieout (he'd fence jumped recently) and Bailey free. I was walking between them when it broke out, but not paying attn to either one. I ran for the water hose, but by then time I got ready to spray, it was over. It was horribly nasty sounding and appearing. I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?
> 
> Thank you very much if you made it this far.


I can tell you that it is not the least bit odd neither one had a single mark. I found with my two littermates you had to let them work it out. Never a mark on either. It sounded terrible and looked scary. One time they reared up on their hind legs and looked like two black bears fighting. Never a puncture wound or a drop of blood. It was all noise and bluff. I know things are done a lot differently now and attitudes have changed but at the time I was told by experts that they had to establish a pack order and to stand back and stay out of it. I don't have any good suggestions for you other than if it were me I would try to find a local trainer you trust and have him or her watch and trust them to know when to step in or if you should rehome.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> It sounds like Bailey is the problem.


True. He is.



Freestep said:


> ..... I could have predicted this.
> 
> Honestly, I think you should crate and rotate for the next six weeks, or however long you have Tucker. By that time, the hormones will have gone from Bailey's system and his behavior may be less intense. Get back to us about it then.


Why (the prediction) ? Due to Bailey being intact or the littermate, same age/same sex issue.. or both or ? (curious). 



msvette2u said:


> ....I have to say...your assessment of the others in the "picture" may be way off. You never know what is really going on - *Suri bossing the "big white boys" around may in fact be triggering Bailey's issues, as he's frustrated that he's not "top dog" and going to prove to someone he's a boss, and so picking on Tucker as he's "easy" to boss around.....*
> 
> ... *I honestly think neutering Bailey was put off far too long* and I think you may see improvement, but *don't intro through the fence*.
> 
> ...


Ok, interesting perspective. I think you are right in that I waited too long. I got caught up in believing that guarding and territorialism was purely a training issue. I won't say it isn't, but I can say we could do things "back then" that we can't now -- ie, the side by side obedience with treats, etc. That was never an issue whatsoever until recently. Please, no one jump on that statement as a pro or anti speuter statement. I'm just trying to figure out this dog, nothing more. It could be all me as a crap poor owner and nothing to do with his genitals, I do not know.

Also interesting perspective on Suri. I'd never thought about that at all.



shepherdmom said:


> I can tell you that it is not the least bit odd neither one had a single mark. I found with my two littermates you had to let them work it out. Never a mark on either. It sounded terrible and looked scary. One time they reared up on their hind legs and looked like two black bears fighting. Never a puncture wound or a drop of blood. It was all noise and bluff. I know things are done a lot differently now and attitudes have changed but at the time I was told by experts that they had to establish a pack order and to stand back and stay out of it. I don't have any good suggestions for you other than if it were me I would try to find a local trainer you trust and have him or her watch and trust them to know when to step in or if you should rehome.


Really interesting and I have read this same advice. Hard to do, though! I think I do need to call someone in for guidance here.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

chelle, you know the saying about crap running downhill', right? Applies to the dog world, too 

I'm not saying Suri's bossiness is the issue, but it's certainly something to consider. Bailey may have aspirations and feel frustrated he's not able to act on them.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> I think I do need to call someone in for guidance here.


I think that is the smart thing to do.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

1. Wait 6 weeks - 3 months for the neuter to "take." 
2. Use NILIF the whole time - for all the dogs. 
3. Re look at MINE! because I think it is a scientific approach.
4. During this time, shop for trainers - look for ones that look at the relationship you have w/your dogs. Ask about Clothier, things like that to see if any are involved in her kind of training. Also here is one Donaldson trained: http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/sc/Academy_Graduate_Referral_List.pdf and then Finding Help has a list as well.
5. Look at the part you are playing in the relationships - think about ways to maintain a healthy relationship and disengage from the parts that are not. 
6. Consider having Bailey's thryoid checked. 
7. You are running the show - it's a lot of work, but show them that you can do it and they will relax. And if it is still not fixable, even with you and everyone operating at a level beyond that of most pet owners, then that's another story. 

Seems like a lot to do, but you have the time to do it, while you wait for him to completely heal and dehormonate.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> Why (the prediction) ? Due to Bailey being intact or the littermate, same age/same sex issue.. or both or ? (curious).


Same-sex littermates are notorious for fighting, especially if intact. 

Keeping two littermates together, IMO, is NOT a good thing for the average pet owner; the two either over-bond to each other and become so "doggy" that they don't care about people, or they fight like heck, or both. It's so common there's a term for it: "Littermate Syndrome". I thought I'd made up this term, until I heard other trainers use it.

I agree that Bailey was left intact far too long; IMO, as a pet dog, he should have been neutered around 8-9 months. The problems you've been having are due in large part to hormones; this is why I am not entirely comfortable with this forum telling pet owners not to spay/neuter, or to wait until after maturity to do so, especially in multi-dog households, telling everyone that hormonal behavior is nothing more than a "training issue". Sure, training has a lot to do with it, but during adolescence especially, hormones can tweak a dog's entire outlook. Emotions, behavior, reactions, they are all based on hormones. Not just testosterone, but all hormones effect and interact with each other and there is a cascade effect when testosterone levels are high, like they are in adolescents.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there at this point. Chalk it up to a lesson.



> I'm just trying to figure out this dog, nothing more. It could be all me as a crap poor owner and nothing to do with his genitals, I do not know.


Just because you're not a credentialed expert or professional does not mean you are a "crap poor owner". I don't expect the average pet owner to know all this stuff. That's why I recommend having at least a 3 year age gap between dogs, spay/neuter before maturity, etc. as it helps to avoid some of the common problems that you're exeperiencing. I agree that contacting a trainer would be a good idea, but don't get too far ahead of yourself. Right now, crate and rotate, NILIF for both dogs, don't re-introduce them "just to see what will happen" before at least 6 weeks is up. And during this time, be open to finding a home for Tucker, because I honestly think that is going to be best for Tucker, Bailey, the rest of the household dogs, and you! I know you don't want to hear that right now, but you have to back up from all this, and look at the big picture.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> IMO, as a pet dog, he should have been neutered around 8-9 months. The problems you've been having are due in large part to hormones;* this is why I am not entirely comfortable with this forum telling pet owners not to spay/neuter, or to wait until after maturity to do so, especially in multi-dog households, telling everyone that hormonal behavior is nothing more than a "training issue"*


Although no guarantee you'd not behaving these issues, I do think the additional hormones played a role, that undirected testosterone is difficult for some teen boy dogs to deal with. You would see the type behavior Bailey's been displaying, unfortunately. 

And unwittingly or indirectly may end up costing one of the boys it's home 

I think folks with 1-2 dogs who are training daily or at least 2-3x a week, very intensely may not see the hormonal behaviors like us mere pet owners do, which is why they have the luxury of keeping those hormones around.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think I remember telling you this was going to get out of control between the brothers, but others felt it was manageable and you seemed inclined to go with them. No problem....but I will repeat....this is not going to work and somebody is going to get hurt sooner or later...whichever comes first.....hope not but not optimistic.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's easy to sit and say that Cliff. A whole 'nother ball of wax when you realize that it's _very_ difficult to find dogs homes already, dogs with no issues at all. Since the economy has taken the downturn, adoptions have dropped off significantly.
Half of the issue is going to be on the economy and slow or non-existent adoptions, the other half, as you know, is going to be on the owner who loves both dogs and doesn't want to have to give one up.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> It's easy to sit and say that Cliff. A whole 'nother ball of wax when you realize that it's _very_ difficult to find dogs homes already, dogs with no issues at all. Since the economy has taken the downturn, adoptions have dropped off significantly.
> Half of the issue is going to be on the economy and slow or non-existent adoptions, the other half, as you know, is going to be on the owner who loves both dogs and doesn't want to have to give one up.


I have a lot of respect for Chelle and what she has accomplished with her dogs. But...the original plan was to rehome Tucker. The economy sucked when that Plan A was implemented, when she brought Tucker in to rehome. It doesn't suck any more now than it did then. So it won't be any harder to rehome now, looking at it strictly from the larger economic outlook. 

Tucker is much more adoptable now than he was then. He is neutered, crate trained and he has basic house manners on board. 

Doing the right thing is often not the same thing as doing the easy thing, or the same thing as what we want to do. But that doesn't make it any less the right thing. That is what Chelle is struggling with right now. The economy and her emotional attachment are just back ground noises to the larger question of what is right for her and ALL the dogs, including the ones that were in her home long before she was ever aware of Tucker.
Sheilah


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Rehoming a dog is a hard, heart-breaking choice and I commend Chelle for considering that as an option. Can't take back anything done in the past, instead look to the future---->

What if Bailey never stops the aggressive behavior? Is it fair to YOU, Chelle, to have to rotate all the dogs day after day for the next 14 years? Is it fair to the other dogs to have to be crated all the time because of another dog's issues?

The best situation seems to be if you could find Bailey a home with someone that has no other pets and that can update you on how he is doing. I know you love him and can't just part with him to never know how he is doing...

What about children ( I do not know your age or relationship status, sorry ) ....are you planning on having children sometime in the next 14 years (this dog's life span)? If he is so huge about resource guarding would you feel comfortable with him around a baby? It would be better to find him a home sooner rather than waiting a few years and finding out he is unmanageable around a child and having to find a home for an older dog.

Just my two cents. I'm no trainer or behaviorist. Just another dog owner that had to rehome a foster that I loved because of aggression issues.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Freestep said:


> .... I don't expect the average pet owner to know all this stuff. That's why I recommend having at least a 3 year age gap between dogs, spay/neuter before maturity, etc. as it helps to avoid some of the common problems that you're exeperiencing.....


But I did know these things and thought I was being diligent and informed, but Tucker was not in my gameplan of life for sure. We had nearly six (?) months of almost problem free life with the boys. I've purposefully spaced my dogs -- when Bailey came home at 11 wks, Dolly was 8, Suri was 4. I thought I was doin' things right! I knew I had to have a male if there was going to be a third. The neutering decision has been a hard one for me, as you may know as I've posted several times.

Now I just hope it was done in time that there is not irreversable damage to a relationship that was good. I suppose I also must consider that even if both had been neutered, there would likely have been adolscent issues.



cliffson1 said:


> I think I remember telling you this was going to get out of control between the brothers, but others felt it was manageable and you seemed inclined to go with them. No problem....but I will repeat....*this is not going to work* and somebody is going to get hurt sooner or later...whichever comes first.....hope not but not optimistic.


I was waiting for the "I told you so." May I ask, why are you so vehement it cannot work? 



sit said:


> I have a lot of respect for Chelle and what she has accomplished with her dogs. But...the original plan was to rehome Tucker. The economy sucked when that Plan A was implemented, when she brought Tucker in to rehome. It doesn't suck any more now than it did then. So it won't be any harder to rehome now, looking at it strictly from the larger economic outlook.
> 
> *Tucker is much more adoptable now than he was then. He is neutered, crate trained and he has basic house manners on board.*
> 
> ...


You are right, Sheilah. This weighs on my mind every day, every hour. I don't want to give up too soon. I don't want to wait too long to re-home. I don't want to live with regret. Every time I look at Tucker, my heart melts, but every time I have to rotate/crate, I am worn thin and am tired. Six more weeks of that is going to be ridiculous. I work a full time job and have basically no help from anyone... So.. my heart is heavy and my mind is spinning.

I'm flirting with the idea of writing out an adoption ad for Tucker and just seeing what I get. If I struck gold, perhaps persuing it.

Truth is, he is FAR more adoptable. In fact, pretty adoptable, even. The biggest requirement is a secure yard. He knows some basic commands. He walks nice on his Easy Walk. He is extremely friendly with people, dogs and cats. He rarely counter surfs anymore, doesn't get into the garbage and doesn't chew things he shouldn't. Fully housebroken and crate trained. Super loving, likes belly rubs and loves fetch with his Jolly Ball. 

Oops sorry to ramble, I'm so good at that... but yes, he's adoptable. He's the kind of dog I'd probably be looking for.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Rehoming a dog is a hard, heart-breaking choice and I commend Chelle for considering that as an option. Can't take back anything done in the past, instead look to the future----> Yes.
> 
> What if Bailey never stops the aggressive behavior? Is it fair to YOU, Chelle, to have to rotate all the dogs day after day for the next 14 years? Is it fair to the other dogs to have to be crated all the time because of another dog's issues?
> 
> ...


..........................


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have a question Is Bailey resource/food guarding with the other dogs? Or just Tucker? 

It's a really hard one to call I like Jeans advice and agree with what she's suggested to try.

Sometimes dogs have s u c k e r stamped on their foreheads, and while it could be bullying, it sounds like he is quite serious IN his bullying. 

Years and years ago, like a century I had an 8 week old gsd that I bought, anyhow, the breeder had his littermate returned at 10 weeks and asked me if I wanted him, I said NO WAY, well a friend of mine took him..we re introduced them when they were around 11 weeks old, let me tell you, hers hated and I mean hated mine. And this was an 11 week old puppy!

We would hike together, and they NEVER EVER got along, on leash and not on top of each other was fine, but hers would always try and start something if given the chance. And as he matured, he got even nastier. (hers not mine)

With that, I thank my lucky stars I didn't take him, I don't have the patience for it, butts would be flying

Anyhow, just wanted to throw that out there, and I think keeping them separated until those hormones dissipate, finding a good behaviorist to help you out, and take it from there..Good luck to you all, I know how much you love both dogs and you are not a crappy owner, you've done really well with all of them


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm with Cliff, I have learned at times to refrain from posting here, because some are just so eager to write a 10 page essay on all the fabulous training methods they've heard, seen, watched on youtube, etc when it comes to fighting dogs.

I don't know if I ever posted in the earlier threads or not (and I'm not going back to look  ) but the reality is that same sex litter mates often do not work out. The people that say things are going great generally have young dogs or submissive dogs. Or they are simply the exception to the rule. This isn't uncommon and most people who have kept more than a couple dogs at a time know this and respect it. It can be done with a LOT of management (crate and rotate, etc) but once dogs (litter mates or not) start fighting, it rarely goes back to harmony in the household. 

People can list a million things for you to try, and you seem like a kind hearted person who is going to try them all. But in the end, you're probably going to end up visiting the vet with one or both of the boys to get injuries repaired. Hopefully, you won't have to visit the ER to have yourself doctored for accidental bite wounds incurred trying to seperate them. Water generally doesn't work on dogs that are truely fighting. You need two people, one at each end of the dog. Leerburgs site breaks down how to pull apart dogs that are fighting. Or if you're alone, you can back tie one and use a break stick or pull the hind quarters of the dog not backtied and try to seperate them. It won't be easy. The fights will get worse, and eventually they'll get bloody.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I have a question Is Bailey resource/food guarding with the other dogs? Or just Tucker?
> 
> It's a really hard one to call I like Jeans advice and agree with what she's suggested to try.
> 
> ...


The food guarding is with all dogs, but is basically non-existent because they eat separately. But, say, another dog walked by him when he was eating, he would growl at them. This is a rarity, as no one is released from their room/crate until all have finished. Yet, it ramped up the other day when I was getting in the refrigerator and he went for Tucker for being that close to the open refrigerator door. I used to be able to be in the kitchen cooking for long periods and none of this crap went on. Taking it to this level is a very new development. I used to be able to do obedience stuff, doling out treats with all the dogs lined up with zero problems. I wouldn't risk it now.

Resource guarding (me mostly, but some toys, which were put up when discovered which ones were problems,) is only with Tucker. Suri or Dolly can be on my lap or wherever they want to be without reaction from him. 

The escalating signs were there and I either missed them or excused them.. and other behaviors were quick to change..

I want these days back!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No advice, just hugs.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I had suggested re-homing on your original thread as well. This just sounds way too stressful, for you and all the dogs. The re-homing will take time anyway, it may take a few months before you find a family that is suitable. 

We currently have a young, rambunctious foster male GSD that we separate from our 7 yo female GSD. My female GSD will tolerate mild-mannered dogs, but not our current foster who wants to be in her face (to invite play) every chance he gets. Problems will probably arise if we don't keep them separated, and we don't want to take a chance. We plan on keeping them separated until the foster gets adopted (we've had him for four months). I am just too much of a worry wart to test boundaries like that.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

You know there is alot of people out there like me whose gsd of 12 years passed away and want to give another a home, not a puppy and not so old to go thur all that again too soon. I got a 2 year old rescue who the former owners said she stressed out their little dog. they thought she should go to a home with no little dogs perfect for me, as I only wanted 1 dog. Ther are alot of people out there that will give him a very good home. She is very loved and well taken care of. I also think now with tough times, some people would rather rescue than pay for a new pup.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> because some are just so eager to write a 10 page essay on all the fabulous training methods they've heard, seen, watched on youtube, etc when it comes to fighting dogs.


Then there's those who live with multiple dogs and make it work. 
I think it can still work but not until leadership is vastly taken control of...over all the dogs, not just the "problem dogs" because I believe that all the dogs contribute to pack structure, and if the owner is not addressing all the dogs, then things are missing and will always be skewed.

Although you do address something we've not dealt with and that's same-sex siblings. 
That said, we've adopted out siblings, even same sex ones and they worked out fine in their new homes.
It's not _always_ doomsday.
And I'd expect two boys to work out better than two girls.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My male aussie (who's 11) , has always been 'iffy' when it comes to food and other dogs especially in my house..Grumbles/growls, and has on occasion gone after one of the other dogs, mostly the big bluff, but a royal pain at times, nonetheless. 

He's always been this way, ALWAYS, I know what sets him off and like I said, with him 99% of the time it's just alotta noise, BUT, he is crated when he is fed, and he's managed. Correcting him negatively, only amps up the growling/grumbling..So he's managed..At this point in his life, he knows when I say, "GO TO YOUR MAT",,he knows I am not kidding, and well he goes 

In fact I just banished him from my bedroom because he thinks "that" belongs to him as well, but like I said, all I have to do is say "LEAVE right NOW", and he gets up leaves the room, grumbling the whole way.

It's a tough call for ANYONE, I think we all think we can never find a home for an animal that would be better than the one we provide. 

Again, I think I would try what Jean suggested, and if it doesn't work/help, well atleast you can say you tried your best, and go from there


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Then there's those who live with multiple dogs and make it work. I think it can still work but not until leadership is vastly taken control of...over all the dogs, not just the "problem dogs" because I believe that all the dogs contribute to pack structure, and if the owner is not addressing all the dogs, then things are missing and will always be skewed.
> 
> 
> > I was going to cut that quote a little more, but since I only ever have to worry about 2 dogs at a time, not 4, I can't really speak to the problem the same way msvette2u can. If she thinks all 4 need it, then they probably do. But I still think that you're not putting your foot down enough. Bailey is getting away with mucho crapo - there's no way he should be guarding the fridge. Leadership does seem to be weak if this is going on. And you're not a bad owner! I'm not saying that at all, only that it sounds like Bailey is making the rules right now. I don't have to tell you that this is wrong, lol.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Well... I just put up a CL ad. 

Just to test the waters, expecting nothing at all. I said I'd require an application, but I sure don't have one crafted... Guess it is something of a bluff, just to see if anything worth anything comes about.

Six weeks more of rotate/crate will test my very limits.

I want to see what is "out there."

My heart is breaking and I'm very confused on what to do. I want the "old days" back so bad it brings me to tears, but ... tonight I took Tuckies on a car ride to the store and he was so happy... and I thought... he deserves this FAR more often than he is getting it with me having these two adolescents + my two girls. I do want more for him! I want a life for him that he has no fear of another dog in the house. Bailey can play with his mom... with my parents' little terrier for doggy play outlets... 

I know people will say talk to rescues, and I will if this gets more serious -- when I am SURE I want to rehome. Please don't bash me. I'm bashing myself enough for the whole board already.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

chelle - would crate/rotate really be such a bad thing? If you are determined to keep both, why not just crate/rotate as you beef up training? Not ideal, but not every dog will get along. That's just the facts of it. Eventually as they are both much better trained and controlled, you can have them out together. They may be civil around each other and maintain normalcy, but you will have to keep a constant vigil. Watch them and immediately intervene when a situation escalates. I have seen multiple intact males in the same household work, but there had to be a high level of management and control. You won't be able to just let them loose and turn your back. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that with quarreling dogs. You can certainly keep both, but you have to decide what you are willing to do. For me, crate/rotate and a system of outside runs is a great way to keep and enjoy multiple dogs (some who inevitably do not get along). However, for you, that may completely unacceptable; in which case, it is probably better for your sanity to rehome one.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

People keep mentioning that littermates often have these kinds of problems, but if I remember right, these dogs weren't raised together, they only met after they were at least a year old or something like that? Does that make a difference?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

chelle sometimes whats' good for us and what we 'want', isn't good for the dog ya know? You will know the right thing to do for him, it may be hard but who knows, take it day by day and see what develops..


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> msvette2u said:
> 
> 
> > Then there's those who live with multiple dogs and make it work. I think it can still work but not until leadership is vastly taken control of...over all the dogs, not just the "problem dogs" because I believe that all the dogs contribute to pack structure, and if the owner is not addressing all the dogs, then things are missing and will always be skewed.
> ...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

chelle, there's nothing wrong with you per se, it's just that you seem more of an "easy pet" owner than a "tough pets" owner. You know, you've had it so good with your old gals, the Eskie and Suri, and I see this all the time in rescue. The good, easy dogs are welcome in some homes and if things get rocky with the addition of another dog (and sometimes they do!) then boom the other dog is sitting right back here and the owner's like, "I'm never doing THAT again!" 

Most people think we're insane for having 9 dogs in our home at any given time, and I tend to agree :crazy:
But also I know we have them and make the best of it, through fights and tiffs and hurt feelings, fosters coming and going, etc. The worst ones are when another dog enters the home and messes everything all up LOL Which is why fosters never ever ever get the same privileges as our dogs, and people will say "Oh but that's not FAIR", well, dogs do not even have the word FAIR in their vocabulary. 

My impression of this is all basically that you are a great owner but when things get rough you're in too deep. 
Perhaps that's why cliffson figures it's never going to work, I don't know, he didn't expound.

Remember ages ago I wanted to call you and talk on the phone, so we could gab about this stuff and I could give you some observations, things I've noticed and learned along the way? It's too hard and time consuming to type it all!
We'll have to do that some day LOL

I agree - nobody should guard anything in that house, let alone the fridge 

Everyone here gets along 99% of the time but everyone has boundaries and they have to know it and stick to it of there's trouble.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

chelle said:


> Well... I just put up a CL ad.


Is there a rescue local to you who will do a courtesy post?? 
We do, but to be honest, if we have a conflicting dog (for instance, two Poodles or some such) I wait to post the courtesy post


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> Most people think we're insane for having 9 dogs in our home at any given time, and I tend to agree :crazy:
> But also I know we have them and make the best of it, through fights and tiffs and hurt feelings, fosters coming and going, etc.


Would you have your same degree of success with that many dogs if most of them weren't as small as they are? I mean, if the "tiffs" in your home were happening between two 70 lb. dogs and not between two 12 lb. dogs, would your desire to "make the best of it" be as strong? To what degree does your training as an animal control officer play into you feeling like you can handle the dynamics of a large number of animals in your own home?

And yes, a 12 lb. dog can bite just as badly as a 70 lb. dog. I fully understand that. But, come on, in cases like dog-dog aggression, size informs our response.

I know why_*I* _don't think it is workable in Chelle's home. I have that opinion because I have seen this type of thing play out over and over again over the years and experience has told me that the type of management that dealing with it requires is really, really difficult to follow through on, day in and day out, for years. Shoot, I am living the crate and rotate routine in my own home and I have for years. It is hard, and I have the help and support of a husband and an older son who know what the routine is and follow it faithfully. I can't imagine doing it on my own.
Sheilah


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree, I'd not have 9 70+ lb. dogs in our home but we have had many larger dogs here, there is no difference in the amount of leadership needed to manage.
We have two large breed fosters _in our home _as well as our own right now, and they still take as much work to move around and manage. When some go outside, others come in, etc. 

There's just a difference in the amount of space.

As to ACO vs. regular folk, no, I don't think there's a huge difference in how to manage, except I learned a ton of things about dog body language and what makes them tick, to have so many different experiences with them. Maybe...more in tune with their body language and what they are saying. 

Management is key, and it's draining at times.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> chelle, there's nothing wrong with you per se, it's just that you seem more of an *"easy pet" owner than a "tough pets" owner.* You know, you've had it so good with your old gals, the Eskie and Suri, and I see this all the time in rescue. The good, easy dogs are welcome in some homes and if things get rocky with the addition of another dog (and sometimes they do!) then boom the other dog is sitting right back here and the owner's like, "I'm never doing THAT again!"
> 
> Most people think we're insane for having 9 dogs in our home at any given time, and I tend to agree :crazy:
> But also I know we have them and make the best of it, through fights and tiffs and hurt feelings, fosters coming and going, etc. The worst ones are when another dog enters the home and messes everything all up LOL Which is why fosters never ever ever get the same privileges as our dogs, and people will say "Oh but that's not FAIR", well, dogs do not even have the word FAIR in their vocabulary.
> ...


Ouch. Have to admit, that stings. Anyone around me says I'm a major dog hard-ass. I don't think I'm "soft," but I am lacking knowledge. None of my dogs have known a "free" life. 

I don't know. I'm so tired.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Bailey is totally focused when he knows what you want and expect from him, because that's what leadership is. Doing OB and retrieving is easy. It's the rest that's hard, because it's up to us to communicate what we want. And we have to know where we want to end up, in order to ask for the steps along the way to end up at that point. Wordy, lol - I hope that makes some kind of sense!

For example, yesterday I was the big joke because at a family gathering some food dropped to the floor and I scooped it up. Everyone said for me to leave it and let my puppy get it. Like heck, lol! I said that he's trained that if he wants something in the kitchen when I'm preparing something, he has to go into his crate and wait for me to share. So everyone called me mean, made jokes about how their dogs are supposed to pick up the food that falls, etc...whatever... I don't care if they think I'm mean, and I think it's stupid that they all said "poor puppy" but I want a well behaved dog and so I have to anticipate what that means to me. I don't like dogs that hover in the kitchen, so not only do I not give them any reason to, but I reward them for not doing it. I love that my puppy will sit in his crate while I make a sandwich, hoping for some cheese. And when I go to their houses, they end up frustrated because they're tripping over their dogs, and then they're yelling at the dogs to get lost. After they've trained them to do the exact opposite, lol! 

What did you do when Bailey guarded the fridge? I would have banished him from the kitchen. Or at least I think I would have, not being there to actually know what was going on, lol.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> 1. Wait 6 weeks - 3 months for the neuter to "take."
> 2. Use NILIF the whole time - for all the dogs.
> 3. Re look at MINE! because I think it is a scientific approach.
> 4. During this time, shop for trainers - look for ones that look at the relationship you have w/your dogs. Ask about Clothier, things like that to see if any are involved in her kind of training. Also here is one Donaldson trained: http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/sc/Academy_Graduate_Referral_List.pdf and then Finding Help has a list as well.
> ...


Im no expert. Lived w/ Dodger and Lucky and Dodger was D/A. Did not know a thing about what I was doing.Never worked w/ a trainer and didnt know about this place. It was difficult.Ive got nothing behind my name for this to have any expert slant. Jean's ideas sound like a place to start and if Tuck needs rehomed you can work to get hime ready and make sure its a home you feel comfortable w/. Hormones do take awhile to settle and having a fresh eye thats neutral as in a trainer might just help.Chelle hang in there. I think you handle alot more then most folks could.I would just say that our living w/ seperate eating,out in the yard play time was a long 3 years .


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Bailey is totally focused when he knows what you want and expect from him, because that's what leadership is. Doing OB and retrieving is easy. *It's the rest that's hard*, because it's up to us to communicate what we want. And we have to know where we want to end up, in order to ask for the steps along the way to end up at that point. Wordy, lol - *I hope that makes some kind of sense!*
> 
> For example, yesterday I was the big joke because at a family gathering some food dropped to the floor and I scooped it up. Everyone said for me to leave it and let my puppy get it. Like heck, lol! I said that he's trained that if he wants something in the kitchen when I'm preparing something, he has to go into his crate and wait for me to share. So everyone called me mean, made jokes about how their dogs are supposed to pick up the food that falls, etc...whatever... I don't care if they think I'm mean, and I think it's stupid that they all said "poor puppy" but I want a well behaved dog and so I have to anticipate what that means to me. I don't like dogs that hover in the kitchen, so not only do I not give them any reason to, but I reward them for not doing it. I love that my puppy will sit in his crate while I make a sandwich, hoping for some cheese. And when I go to their houses, they end up frustrated because they're tripping over their dogs, and then they're yelling at the dogs to get lost. After they've trained them to do the exact opposite, lol!
> 
> What did you do when Bailey guarded the fridge? I would have banished him from the kitchen. Or at least I think I would have, not being there to actually know what was going on, lol.


You do make sense. I get it. I am also that "joke" like you explain. That's me. Heck, my family members feed dogs right from the table. I have never done that, nor will I ever do that -- cannot stand that.

As far as the fridge thing... I am quite used to having dogs underfoot. There are four of them always milling about and they're always where I am, whether kitchen or whatever. As well as a cat in the midst.

He wasn't guarding the fridge, so to speak... he was just there, like there are always dogs close to me. Tucker was just closer to the fridge, sniffing and that's all it took. I told Bailey NO, grabbed him by the collar and crated him. I'm not thrilled with the crating, as I don't want him to see the crate as punishment since he likes his crate, but that's what I did. Didn't know what else to do really. I had to get him out of the mix to calm things down.



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Im no expert. Lived w/ Dodger and Lucky and Dodger was D/A. Did not know a thing about what I was doing.Never worked w/ a trainer and didnt know about this place. It was difficult.Ive got nothing behind my name for this to have any expert slant. Jean's ideas sound like a place to start and if Tuck needs rehomed you can work to get hime ready and make sure its a home you feel comfortable w/. Hormones do take awhile to settle and having a fresh eye thats neutral as in a trainer might just help.Chelle hang in there. I think you handle alot more then most folks could.I would just say that our living w/ seperate eating,out in the yard play time was a long 3 years .


I'll hang in there because I have no other choice for now.  I will call in the same trainer that I called before when I'm ready. She is cool as a cucumber: Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers®

Thanks for the encouragement.  Sadly, I'm not doing this for three years.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

chelle said:


> I told Bailey NO, grabbed him by the collar and crated him.


So Bailey got a triple treat: he got to pull rank, he got away with it, and then he got you to touch him, giving him all the attention. See what I'm saying? I'm not picking on you  I'm just looking at it from another angle.
That's why I said I'd have banished him - just pointed my finger at the next room and yelled, "NO! BAD!! GO ON!!!" so he'd have skulked off on his own.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> So Bailey got a triple treat: he got to pull rank, he got away with it, and then he got you to touch him, giving him all the attention. See what I'm saying? I'm not picking on you  I'm just looking at it from another angle.
> That's why I said I'd have banished him - just pointed my finger at the next room and yelled, "NO! BAD!! GO ON!!!" so he'd have skulked off on his own.


Mmmm ok, interesting. My thoughts were more about not letting a fight break out, getting control ... but I get what you are saying. Bad boy, banished from the pack... This would work when threshhold is not too high.

I'm learning threshold is a big deal. Or red zone. Or whatever a person wishes to call it. There is a point you can call it off, and there is a point beyond that. The trick, as I've been learning, is knowing just where that is and being right there on top of it going over threshhold. Once it is over top, so to speak, it doesn't matter what the human does. I've seen how "blind" the dogs go, how they are totally focused on the fight. 

Our experiences are not lost on me. I am learning every day. I am not soft. I am not afraid to do whatever I must do. 

Admittedly, I don't appreciate being treated as some person off the street with potty training issues. I'm not to the level of training and knowledge that many are, but I'm no fool, I'm not soft, I'm not easy with these dogs.

I do resent being told I must rehome Tucker because it cannot work. Granted, I actually agree. It probably can't. However, if that is the feeling, please expound. Please give me more information. When you give me a fly-by "it won't work," I catch myself being defensive. Give me more info, please. Please don't treat me like the people who can't potty train their dogs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

chelle - not sure if you caught my post, but is a crate/rotate and outdoor runs system completely out of the question for you?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

FTR I think anyone can make it work, I honestly don't buy the "siblings will fight" thing. 
Of all the dogs here ever, we have opposite sex siblings that are so bonded and non-aggressive they can be crated together.
I don't know, though, if these boys _know_ they are siblings. I doubt they even do.
Maybe it's the age thing-- both same age?

But I do think it can work.

Even if all you ever did was crate/rotate, it can work


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Same sex siblings can and do get along. 

Two brothers and the sister as well.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chelle, I am not vehement against you keeping both, I am just giving you an opinion based on what you presented. I go into people's homes and provide consultations for behavioral issues. I take into consideration the dog or dogs, the owners or handlers, the environment , and use many many years of experience is coming to a conclusion. I do not look at these things lightly(people pay me good money for my services), nor do I let my feelings or likes interfere with giving a truthful assessment of their situation. Most of the times problems are the result of the lack of knowledge of the owners thus letting things grow gradually that they didn't recognize where it would go, and lack of knowledge of the way dogs think and exploit things in a relationship. From your original posts, there were many things on the part of your handling of things as you explained, the dynamics of the dogs, and the environment you were proceeding in; that screamed at me where this was going. So I gave a candid assessment based on probability.....hoping it wouldn't get there but being dishonest if I didn't say what my experiences led me to conclude. Now some people here disagree with me and maybe have better insights into your situation than I, I will be very happy for you if the end result supports their advice. I just try to be honest from my perspective, not vehement!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Then there's those who live with multiple dogs and make it work.
> I think it can still work but not until leadership is vastly taken control of...over all the dogs, not just the "problem dogs" because I believe that all the dogs contribute to pack structure, and if the owner is not addressing all the dogs, then things are missing and will always be skewed.
> 
> Although you do address something we've not dealt with and that's same-sex siblings.
> ...


Yes, and in my experience those who "make it work" are those who don't truely have two dogs that are FIGHTING. They have lots of little dogs, or a couple of big dogs who get into, as some have said, "tiffs" or "squabbles" or as I call them "slobber fights" where nothing happens but a little slobber and some hurt feelings. These issues between her two boys has been building for awhile, and IME is probably going to blow up in the near future and they won't be mere slobber fights anymore. 

I used to think like you did, that it's just all about pack structure and the owner wasn't "alpha" enough or a strong enough leader to manage a pack of dogs, etc. Then my beautifully well trained and insanely well socialized now almost 9 yr old female GSD decided when she hit sexual maturity that she was no longer interested in living with another female dog. After years of doing every possible thing to try to work with her, I finally started talking to real trainers and doing serious research and found that this isn't uncommon, and once it starts it generally doesn't stop. It's been crate and rotate since, but we also have a huge fenced yard, and large kennel, so it's not always one in a crate and one in the house. We make it work, sure, but it's not fun and it's not easy and honestly there are days it just stinks. She hasn't had this other dog long, and isn't as attached, so I'd rehome one of them in that situation.

Also, no one has said no siblings work together. Just that it is not uncommon or out of the ordinary for it to go south. Most of the time when it does go south, people rehome without much thought to it. And oftentimes on a forum like this, people lie about it and act as though they didn't rehome a dog even though they did, because there seems to be such a negative feeling towards rehoming. Which is odd to me, because I just really don't see the difference between taking in a "foster" dog for 6 months and rehoming it, and everyone's shouting for joy that the dog has a new home, vs a rehome situation where it really is in the best interest of all involved, and you're deemed a failure as a dog owner/trainer/handler/insert other term.

JMHO and by the way, I have 4 big dogs here - 3 GSD's and a Malinois, and have fostered hundreds of dogs, 99% of them large breed dogs and many with "issues", over the past 15 years or so. So I am not by any stretch of the imagination inexperienced at a pack of dogs working together. My female shepherd has, in that time period, been the ONLY dog I could not get manageable in a living situation with other female dogs. So I do understand that if you haven't experienced that, it just seems like a training or handling issue.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> FTR I think anyone can make it work, I honestly don't buy the "siblings will fight" thing.


You don't have to buy it, but it's true nonetheless. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen... and there is a buttload of evidence, experience from others on this forum including accomplished trainers.



> Of all the dogs here ever, we have *opposite sex siblings* that are so bonded and non-aggressive they can be crated together.


Opposite sex siblings are very different from same-sex siblings. Often you have the opposite problem with opposite-sex siblings: they over-bond to each other and the human becomes a secondary concern, such that if the pair decides to do something you don't want them to, you will have a very tough time convincing them otherwise. 

Sibling pairs CAN work very well if they are working dogs that need to cooperate with each other: sled dogs, hunting dogs, livestock guardians, herding dogs, etc. But the dynamic has to be very clear, each dog in its own role. With pet dogs that have no clear-cut job, it's more problematic.

I have never raised siblings together, but once a friend of mine got a male pup from the same litter as my female pup. As youngsters, the two would get together for play about once a week. At around 7-8 months of age, they started to fight and we could no longer let them play together.

As a groomer, I see several clients who own littermate dogs, or dogs close in age raised together. The opposite-sex pairs tend to have the "Where the Red Fern Grows" thing going on. Overbonding, separation anxiety, etc. They may be relatively well-adjusted pet dogs, but they are two halves of a whole, and tend to stress out when separated.

The same-sex pairs tend to fight if one dog is not clearly, consistently submissive. I have one client with three Jack Russells, a mother and her two sons. Those dogs are completely out of control and the owner is at his wits' end... he says it's the biggest mistake he ever made. The three of them all fight like Tasmanian devils. Granted, the owner is pretty clueless about dog training and behavior, so he let the issues slide and has at this point completely given up. He is overwhelmed, as most average pet owners would be.

To say that "anyone" can make it work is dangerous advice, IMO. Yes, it can work, with a lot of diligence on the owners' part, but it is rarely an ideal situation for pet dogs. Some breeds are easier than others, some individuals are easier than others. With some breeds, like Scottish Deerhounds, it is common practice to raise littermates together, and any issues that crop up are relatively mild if the pups are managed properly. But with GSDs it is dicey, and often way more than the average pet owner can comfortably manage.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> chelle - not sure if you caught my post, but is a crate/rotate and outdoor runs system completely out of the question for you?


No, not entirely out of the question. This could be done with a little work and $$. It actually has entered my mind. Not for him to live out there, but for a better crate/rotate situation with more room for him.



cliffson1 said:


> Chelle, I am not vehement against you keeping both, I am just giving you an opinion based on what you presented. I go into people's homes and provide consultations for behavioral issues. I take into consideration the dog or dogs, the owners or handlers, the environment , and use many many years of experience is coming to a conclusion. I do not look at these things lightly(people pay me good money for my services), nor do I let my feelings or likes interfere with giving a truthful assessment of their situation. Most of the times problems are the result of the lack of knowledge of the owners thus letting things grow gradually that they didn't recognize where it would go, and lack of knowledge of the way dogs think and exploit things in a relationship. From your original posts, there were many things on the part of your handling of things as you explained, the dynamics of the dogs, and the environment you were proceeding in; that screamed at me where this was going. So I gave a candid assessment based on probability.....hoping it wouldn't get there but being dishonest if I didn't say what my experiences led me to conclude. Now some people here disagree with me and maybe have better insights into your situation than I, I will be very happy for you if the end result supports their advice. I just try to be honest from my perspective, not vehement!


Thank you for elaborating.

This has been a long drama and I've posted about it ever since Tucker came here last February. Many kind people have followed that saga and I've posted a lot as things came up. 

I'll admit to a lack of knowledge, but I can learn. I want to exhaust my options but need to know what they are. I am looking for insight, ideas, feedback etc on this board and that's what I am getting.

If you have a moment to tell me what things "screamed" at you initially, it may be very helpful to me.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> People keep mentioning that littermates often have these kinds of problems, but if I remember right, these dogs weren't raised together, they only met after they were at least a year old or something like that? Does that make a difference?


I've wondered about this, also. Can anyone speak to this? (They were 9 months when they came together.)


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think they remember each other after that long of a separation. Yes this does occur with littermates and that has an added caveat because they grow up together their entire lives. Then one day they'll turn on each other after living together for a year and a half with no issues for example. In this situation, it has more to do with the same age and sex.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Opposite sex siblings are very different from same-sex siblings.


I get that...and reluctant to adopt two sisters together, it has worked in the past, although I don't want to play that card often 

And I think two boys (neutered young - 6-8mos. maybe) would work out better than two girls, but what I'm saying is that it's not a blanket thing - I think it can work, I don't think it's a death sentence or anything, but why I'm saying this in the 1st place is that those two dogs lived separately until about 3mos. ago or whenever she acquired Tucker. 
So I guess my point is - the "siblings" thing, to me, is a non-issue in this case. They didn't grow up together, although together now, their formative months of 6 weeks - 9mos. or so were spent apart.

I would sooner believe it's same-AGE rather than the sibling factor.



> To say that "anyone" can make it work is dangerous advice, IMO. *Yes, it can work, with a lot of diligence on the owners' part, *but it is rarely an ideal situation for pet dogs.


Anyone can, provided they do what's necessary, up to and including "crate-rotate" if that's what it takes, that's what I mean.

But you'll also find owners willing to go all those extra miles are scarce. So yeah, I guess you could just shrug and say "it won't work" but my point is, it can, it will just take a lot more than most average owners are willing to give.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, it can work. I've done crate and rotate with my almost 9 yr old female shepherd in regards to my other female dog for almost 8 years now. It is NOT fun, and I'm not perfect, there have been two slip ups over the years. My issue is a little different than chelles, in that one of my GSD's is likely a mix of a little something else, and is small at only 55 lbs vs the other who is standard sized at 70 lbs. The smaller one is VERY skittish and submissive, and does not fight back unless attacked. The other one will seek her out, given the chance, and lay into her. Both slip ups on my part resulted in massive vet bills and weeks of rehab for the smaller GSD who was attacked, with minimal injuries on the attacker. It is an outright attack, not a fight, or a squabble. My husband is a VERY strong big guy at 6'3" and has been a police officer working the worst areas of this city for almost 17 years and it was all he could do to get my girl off my other girl during the last fight. It was THAT bad. I would never wish this on anyone. 

In our case, here's our set up. We have a decent sized house, a good sized fully fenced yard, a 30 x 18 outdoor kennel (concrete and mulch) and crates. I "crate and rotate" but in reality, unless it's crazy cold or crazy hot, one is in the yard or kennel, and one is inside. We have to be VERY careful about knowing where they are at all times. It sounds easy, but over time (years in our case) you get complacent (sp?) and slips have happened. Its's hard to forgive yourself when it does, but the alternative is rehoming one and I have had them both too long to do that. 

So, crates, kennel, yard. It works for us. But I also have going for my that my dogs are 100% respectful of our fence, and I'm not one of those who has qualms letting my dogs spend time in the yard on nice days without me there. It's a nice, fairly secluded yard, lots of trees for shade. If I had to live in such a fashion that one had to literally be crated all the time (a true crate and rotate situation) I would probably have rehomed one years ago.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You don't have to buy it, but it's true nonetheless. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen... and there is a buttload of evidence, experience from others on this forum including accomplished trainers.


Just because you haven't had good luck with siblings doesn't mean that everyone has the same problems you have experienced not only did I have brothers their entire lives but I've had many friends over the years who have also had siblings with no problems. There is a "buttload" of proof that siblings can and do get along if managed right. I think the major problem here is all the advise has scared Chelle so bad she is jumping in to soon rather than letting them work it out. That being said I haven't actually seen the dogs fight so I could be totally wrong which is why I strongly suggest she find a local expert she trusts and have them observe the dogs.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

just be careful that their tension and fighting doesnt slip over to the other 2 female dogs... tension will start to build up and the other 2 females might start to feel the heat as well..


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I don't think it's a death sentence or anything,


Who said anything about a "death sentence"?



> I would sooner believe it's same-AGE rather than the sibling factor.


Sure, I think I even said at one point that these issues don't necessarily limit themselves to littermates, it's more about dogs of the same sex and age. Littermates bring in other factors like breed, size, temperament, etc.



> Anyone can, provided they do what's necessary, up to and including "crate-rotate" if that's what it takes, that's what I mean.
> 
> But you'll also find owners willing to go all those extra miles are scarce. So yeah, I guess you could just shrug and say "it won't work" but my point is, it can, it will just take a lot more than most average owners are willing to give.


Exactly. I suppose you can say that most anyone *can* do it, it's just that not everyone *will*. Most pet owners don't have the knowledge, understanding, and skill to manage two dogs of the same age, sex, size, breed, and temperament (see, it's easier just to say "littermates"  ) when they start fighting. And many people don't want to, either. I know that I, personally, wouldn't want to crate and rotate two dogs that don't get along for 14+ years. Call me crazy, but I think that two dogs who hate each other would be happier in separate homes, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I think that two dogs who hate each other would be happier in separate homes, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way.


I'm not arguing with you but you do also understand that coming to that realization and then actually rehoming one of the dogs is much easier said than done


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Just because you haven't had good luck with siblings doesn't mean that everyone has the same problems you have experienced not only did I have brothers their entire lives but I've had many friends over the years who have also had siblings with no problems. There is a "buttload" of proof that siblings can and do get along if managed right.


I've already given that it *can* work, given the right dogs under the right circumstances. But it very commonly *doesn't* work. I've seen it become disasterous enough times that I think it would be irresponsible of me to say "Sure, it'll be fine, don't worry!" I'm glad you've had good luck with your brothers, but because I have seen it go bad so many times, I will never recommend that people keep two siblings together unless they really know what they are doing.



> I think the major problem here is all the advise has scared Chelle so bad she is jumping in to soon rather than letting them work it out. That being said I haven't actually seen the dogs fight so I could be totally wrong which is why I strongly suggest she find a local expert she trusts and have them observe the dogs.


I hardly think she's doing anything "too soon". She's been agonizing over this. I trust that she has her dogs' best interest at heart, and deep down she knows what is best for everyone involved. And I know she's having a tough time with these issues, which I certainly understand. 

The thing is, it would be terrible if one or both dogs need to go to the vet for sutures after a serious fight, so rather than "letting them work it out", I'm recommending the safest course of action, that IMO is in the best interest of everyone involved.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> I don't think they remember each other after that long of a separation. Yes this does occur with littermates and that has an added caveat because they grow up together their entire lives. Then one day they'll turn on each other after living together for a year and a half with no issues for example. In this situation, *it has more to do with the same age and sex*.


Agreed.



Rerun said:


> ....So, crates, kennel, yard. It works for us. But I also have going for my that my dogs are 100% respectful of our fence, and I'm not one of those who has qualms letting my dogs spend time in the yard on nice days without me there. It's a nice, fairly secluded yard, lots of trees for shade. If I had to live in such a fashion that one had to literally be crated all the time (a *true crate and rotate situation*) I would probably have rehomed one years ago.


Tucker is respecting the fence now... but that's another story I'll update on the other post. He is by no means 100% trustworthy outdoors alone and I haven't left him alone out there. If he alone outside, he's on the tieout, unfortunately. When I'm out there with him, he's earned being leash-free. This helps tremendously in exercising.

Bailey is 100% trustworthy alone outside; he doesn't try to go over or under. He has no desire to leave the yard, really. But, he doesn't want to be out there without me so he whines at the door. Sigh. 

When one is outside, the other is free in the house. BUT, then I have to go back inside to crate up the loose dog, let the other dog inside, crate that dog up, release the crated dog to go outside, then return inside to let the newly crated dog out... Fun times. Well, gee, on the positive side, they're sure learning the crate command very well. :crazy:



shepherdmom said:


> Just because you haven't had good luck with siblings doesn't mean that everyone has the same problems you have experienced not only did I have brothers their entire lives but I've had many friends over the years who have also had siblings with no problems. There is a "buttload" of proof that siblings can and do get along if managed right. I think the major problem here is all the advise has *scared Chelle so bad* she is jumping in to soon rather than letting them work it out. That being said I haven't actually seen the dogs fight so I could be totally wrong which is why I strongly suggest she find a *local expert she trusts* and have them observe the dogs.


You are right, all the gloom and doom has scared me. Made me feel hopeless. I am not a quitter and I don't want to do so until I've really exhausted all my options. No, of course I do not want it to come to a bad, bloody fight. I'm set up for another five weeks of crate/rotate so I plan to use that time wisely; reading, asking questions, learning, etc. 



mebully21 said:


> just be careful that their tension and fighting doesnt slip over to the other 2 female dogs... tension will start to build up and the other 2 females might start to feel the heat as well..


Thank you, good advice and I will be careful. I've already seen a certain amount of this, actually. This change in routine has upset the balance we had. 



Freestep said:


> ......Call me crazy, but I think that *two dogs who hate each other* would be happier in separate homes, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way.


I would agree with this, but the issue is entirely Bailey. Tucker has been the little miscreant who pursues play a little overly-rambunctiously at times, but it is always Bailey who brings forth the aggression. Tucker does not hate Bailey at all. Tucker actually submits to Bailey. Bailey doesn't hate Tucker, either, but his issues with guarding seem to bring on the problems. This is where I need to learn more and get a firmer grip on guarding issues. I have weeks to do this, so must make some changes in my handling. I don't think I'm wording things right here but guarding is at the heart of this thing now I think.

Granted, the last fight and all the hackling for a couple of days was not about guarding anything... that was a brand new development. Hormones? I don't know.



msvette2u said:


> I'm not arguing with you but you do also understand that coming to that realization and then actually rehoming one of the dogs *is much easier said than done*


True. Come to find out, Petfinder no longer allows classified ads. Only rescue group ads. I contacted one inquiring about a courtesy post. I'll contact a couple more. I'm looking at this as though I'm in it for the long haul. My Craigslist ad brought exactly one response: a woman said she'd take Tucker to be her other WGSD male's buddy to live on a large farm as an outdoor dog. Really tempting. :smirk: ... NOT!



Freestep said:


> I've already given that it *can* work, given the right dogs under the right circumstances. But it very commonly *doesn't* work. I've seen it become disasterous enough times that I think it would be irresponsible of me to say "Sure, it'll be fine, don't worry!" I'm glad you've had good luck with your brothers, but because I have seen it go bad so many times, I will never recommend that people keep two siblings together unless they really know what they are doing.
> 
> I hardly think she's doing anything "too soon". *She's been agonizing over this. I trust that she has her dogs' best interest at heart, *and deep down she knows what is best for everyone involved. And I know she's having a tough time with these issues, which I certainly understand.
> 
> The thing is, it would be terrible if one or both dogs need to go to the vet for sutures after a serious fight, so rather than "letting them work it out", I'm recommending the safest course of action, that IMO is in the best interest of everyone involved.


True enough.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> You are right, all the gloom and doom has scared me. Made me feel hopeless. I am not a quitter and I don't want to do so until I've really exhausted all my options.


Doing the right thing does not make you a "quitter". Take a deep breath, back up, and look at the big picture. 



> Tucker does not hate Bailey at all. Tucker actually submits to Bailey. Bailey doesn't hate Tucker, either, but his issues with guarding seem to bring on the problems.


I think it's just an issue of semantics here, but when I say "two dogs that hate each other", I mean two dogs that are fighting, for whatever reason.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Letting this boy go will be the most painful experience I will know in many years and that is not a lighthearted statement. I'm a 42 year old woman who has known much heartbreak and this will top it all. My eyes tear up and my gut _twists_ to even think about saying goodbye to Tuckies.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I've already given that it *can* work, given the right dogs under the right circumstances. But it very commonly *doesn't* work.
> 
> *It commonly works all over the place. It is only in your experience it doesn't work.*
> 
> ...


*See I don't see rehoming Tucker in the best interest of Chelle or Tucker. They have obviously bonded. I'm not suggesting she just let them go at it by herself now. She needs expert help. More than she can get off of a thread on the internet. She needs a trainer who can show her how to redirect and who will know at what point to step in if a step in needs to happen. If spending a little bit of time with a trainer and letting Bailey calm down from the hormones will help her be able to keep both her ♥ dogs then why are you being so dang negative?*

*Chelle it can and does commenly work for a lot of people. *
*







*


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> _Originally Posted by *Freestep* ___
> _I've already given that it *can* work, given the right dogs under the right circumstances. But it very commonly *doesn't* work._
> 
> _It commonly works all over the place. It is only in your experience it doesn't work. _


_Haha! It's "only" in my experience that it doesn't work?? I'm the only person in the world who has seen this? Explain to me why so many others are saying the same thing that I am._

_



I will never recommend that people keep two siblings together unless they really know what they are doing.

Click to expand...

_


> _and who are you? Are you a trainer? What are your qualifications? _


_I might ask you the same question, since you seem to "know" that I am wrong. No, I am not a professional trainer. I have worked professionally with animals for over 20 years, first as a vet tech, then as a groomer. I am in fairly close contact with most of my clients, as I see them every 6 weeks or so, and I get regular updates on how dogs are doing in their homes. I see their behavior when in my shop. _

_Also, in training my own dogs in obedience, Schutzhund, etc., I have been in clubs and seen many others training their dogs. I've had the pleasure to work with many good trainers (and some not so good), and I've seen the results of training over time both with my own dogs and others._

_So, what are YOUR credentials?_


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If you guys want to banter about credentials could you take it to another thread please. You aren't helping Bailey or Tucker.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sorry, my intent was not to banter about "credentials", but to help Chelle understand that this situation with Bailey and Tucker is NOT her fault.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have not read this entire thread but just wanted to say I sold one of my dogs recently and it was the best decision. I am convinced of this (as is everyone involved including the breeder) now after seeing the dog I sold with his new owner and new pack. My dogs were not littermates but I'm not really sure that matters. I don't think dogs really give each other any more leeway because a dog is a blood relative or littermate. I had two dogs of the same sex close in age so I knew it would always be a gamble. The issues between them were not the only reason I sold the dog but what I wanted to say is that now that those issues have been removed/resolved *everyone* in the household is feeling better. The crate and rotate thing just did not work for us, not with the amount of space we did not have and with the amount of tension all of the dogs were feeling (including my other dog who had nothing to do with any of this and who is my oldest dog and thus should have the highest consideration). Yes I could have MADE it work but in our case it was not in the best interest of any of the dogs or the people. I decided before I owned any of the dogs I have now that I'm not going a crate-and-rotate lifestyle. Because of how "open" our house is (family and friends coming and going) I can't have a situation where someone could make a simple mistake and have it end in blood. I'm also not willing to alter my entire lifestyle and put strain on my marriage when a perfect solution fell into my lap (selling one dog to a very good friend who was a better fit as far as temperament and training style anyway). I saw my dog and spent some time with him this past weekend, a month and a half after selling him, and I was worried I would be really upset but honestly it just reaffirmed my decision and I was very happy to see him thriving with his new family and also the amount of stress and anxiety that has been relieved from my household. I had no idea how much stress my other dogs were under until it was gone.

My experience does not change how I feel about any of my dogs and does not lead me to make blanket statements about which sexes of dogs can live together, whether littermates can, bla bla bla. All I will say is that some dogs just can't stand each other and there is no other explanation. None of my dogs are dog-aggressive; they all have grown up around other dogs and still live in households with multiple dogs, do training and events with tons of other dogs (like flyball where 8-12 dogs are always running around off leash at once). Sometimes your only options are permanent separation or rehoming a dog. It's up to the individual to decide which is best for the household.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chelle, ....you wanted to know what screamed at me? Well......all advice is not equal although it may be kind and well intended. Some of the advice you were getting and appeared to favor seemed to me to not fully understand the dynamics of what was taking place.
First, siblings of the same sex and of opposite sex can get along......but once major skirmish start taking place the dynamics change. Now rank positions enter in the equation. So if you are at the top then the aggressive brother sees himself as number two and will punish the other brother for certain scenarios. Now if you were willing to alternately crate them.....okay that would work. But you were leaning toward following the advice of those that were suggesting the ways to show them equal favor. Unfortunately, the dominant male is going to punish the submissive male for receiving favor from you(among other things he will punish him for). So your desire for these two to get along and "share" your affections was not going to happen once the fighting had started. And in fact, inadvertently, your attention to tucker is going to create some of this. This is just one of the dynamics that I read that led me to believe this will get worse, or else Bailey will make Tucker live a life of submission. ( this is all based on you trying to make them get along like old times in an open environment.....and your posts clearly showed this is what you wanted )
This doesn't even take into account the lack of knowledge and experience you have with a situation like this. It was obvious that some of the people advising you we're not factoring these elements and wanted to be " helpful". 
But Chelle, dog fighting and indiscriminate aggression are two things that can cause injury to dog and person.....for those reasons sound advice and decisions carry a responsibility from my perspective.....and feelings have to take a back seat to possibilities. I hope things work out for you, Tucker, and Bailey.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Listen to Cliff, Chelle. He just described my household with two unrelated females. I can not show Sierra any attention or she seems to "claim" me. Then she starts attacking Jax. It builds and builds with Jax attacking her. Sierra is a Boxer with little teeth but goes straight for the throat and holds there. Jax fights defensively and always manages to send Sierra for stitches. 

As long as I show her no attention, we have relative peace at my house. We went to my trainer with both dogs who gave us exercises to do to help the pack dynamics. Started them and Jax reinjured her knee. I do believe that has helped even with the little we did but we will never be able to let our guard down. 

If you willing to rehome one, then you need to get a professional trainer to help you.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

My opinion:

* It is the age/gender issue, not the sibling issue.
* It is NOT a given that they can never get along.
* It is OK if you decide to keep both.
* It is OK if you decide to rehome Tucker (although I know it will be HARD. I couldn't do it personally, but hats off to you if you can.)

I'd keep them separated 100% of the time for the time being. Get a behaviorist (with good recommendations) and consider keeping them separate at all times.

That being said, has there been problems with the "cop" present? If not, would it be worth trying to keep her in the mix at all times to keep everyone in their place?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> But you were leaning toward following the advice of those that were suggesting the ways to show them equal favor.


I must have missed that "advice"... I'd have jumped all over that if I'd seen it! That sounds more like advice on how to START fights.

Chelle, both Liesje's and Cliff's posts are spot-on. I hope reading them creates a "light bulb" experience, so that you can learn from this situation, and stop beating yourself up.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've found that when a dog I know is sold or rehomed, it ends up being for the better *for the dog* (at least among people I know, who are not people that get dogs on a whim or rehome them over trivial issues). The guilt is generally from other people who are not even involved in the situation, usually have never even met the dog or people involved. I realized any guilt I felt over selling Pan was because of how I thought I'd be perceived by others. After actually *seeing* Pan with his new owner all of that was erased and people who think they know everything without ever having met me or my dogs can just shove it


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> ......Yes I could have MADE it work but in our case it was *not in the best interest of any of the dogs or the people*. I decided before I owned any of the dogs I have now that I'm not going a crate-and-rotate lifestyle. Because of how "open" our house is (family and friends coming and going) I can't have a situation where someone could make a simple mistake and have it end in blood. I'm also not willing to alter my entire lifestyle and put strain on my marriage when a *perfect solution fell into my lap* (selling one dog to a very good friend who was a better fit as far as temperament and training style anyway). I saw my dog and spent some time with him this past weekend, a month and a half after selling him, and I was worried I would be really upset but honestly it just reaffirmed my decision and I was very happy to see him thriving with his new family and also the amount of stress and anxiety that has been relieved from my household.* I had no idea how much stress my other dogs were under until it was gone.....*


And this is in large part my struggle now. I can work on this, I can call in trainers. I can hope and pray, learn, read, etc.. but I still may not end up with what I want. (Dogs to get along as they once did.) 

I'm one week into rotate/crate due to Bailey's neuter. It sucks. It sucks BAD. I hate living this way. It might be different if each dog didn't mind being outside alone for a time, but neither one wants to be. They cry, they bark. I am running inside and outside non-stop. This is exhausting and no way to live for any of us. I wish a wonderful home would drop into my lap, as did with you.

The house is definitely under stress. The cat probably even feels it. :crazy: 



cliffson1 said:


> Chelle, ....you wanted to know what screamed at me? Well......all advice is not equal although it may be kind and well intended. Some of the advice you were getting and appeared to favor seemed to me to not fully understand the dynamics of what was taking place.
> 
> First, siblings of the same sex and of opposite sex can get along......*but once major skirmish start taking place the dynamics change.* Now rank positions enter in the equation. So if you are at the top then the aggressive brother sees himself as number two and will punish the other brother for certain scenarios. Now if you were willing to alternately crate them.....okay that would work. But you were leaning toward following the advice of those that were suggesting the ways to show them equal favor. Unfortunately,* the dominant male is going to punish the submissive male for receiving favor from you(among other things he will punish him for*). So your desire for these two to get along and "share" your affections was not going to happen once the fighting had started. And in fact, inadvertently, your attention to tucker is going to create some of this. This is just one of the dynamics that I read that led me to believe this will get worse, or else *Bailey will make Tucker live a life of submission. *( this is all based on you trying to make them get along like old times in an open environment.....and your posts *clearly showed this is what you wanted* )
> 
> ...


This all makes sense to me and thank you for taking the time to explain it. I get it and I know it to be true, as I've seen it. I did find ignoring each kept the peace. Saving the lovey-dovey stuff for when each dog was separate and basically, behaving very dictator-like. Truth is.. I don't want that.  When it is just the girls and one of the boys, I can behave any way I want; I can love up on any dog I want. THAT is what I want in my home. I do hate this vying for my attn and constantly being on guard so the other isn't focusing on that. 

As far as knowledge... I am not to the level of a great many folks here, but I can say I have learned a lot in the past six months. A person must start somewhere, yes? Now, granted, I don't wish my 'learning experiences' to be at the cost of injury to either dog. I really am not oblivious. I am not a weak personality with these dogs, but there is a learning curve, yes.



Jax08 said:


> Listen to Cliff, Chelle. He just described my household with two unrelated females. I can not show Sierra any attention or she seems to "claim" me. Then she starts attacking Jax. It builds and builds with Jax attacking her. Sierra is a Boxer with little teeth but goes straight for the throat and holds there. Jax fights defensively and always manages to send Sierra for stitches.
> 
> *As long as I show her no attention, we have relative peace at my house*. We went to my trainer with both dogs who gave us exercises to do to help the pack dynamics. Started them and Jax reinjured her knee. I do believe that has helped even with the little we did but we will never be able to let our guard down.
> 
> If you willing to rehome one, then you need to get a professional trainer to help you.


I assume you mean if I am "not" willing to rehome one.. but yes, you are right. I will need help if they remain. I am very curious to know about the exercises?



vicky2200 said:


> My opinion:
> 
> * It is the age/gender issue, not the sibling issue.
> * It is NOT a given that they can never get along.
> ...


There has been a bit of nonsense with her present, but she rushes in afterwards, as if to say, hey you idiots, what were you thinking? She's certainly bright enough to steer clear when it is amped up. 



Freestep said:


> I must have missed that "advice"... I'd have jumped all over that if I'd seen it! That sounds more like advice on how to START fights.
> 
> Chelle, both Liesje's and Cliff's posts are spot-on. I hope reading them creates a "light bulb" experience, so that you can learn from this situation, and stop beating yourself up.


Nah, no lightbulb, as I've understood much of this.. but I am gaining knowledge for sure. Stop beating myself? Maybe a little. I want a good life for Tucker. Him always submitting to Bailey is not a good life. I want better for him.



Liesje said:


> I've found that when a dog I know is sold or rehomed, it ends up being for the better *for the dog* (at least among people I know, who are not people that get dogs on a whim or rehome them over trivial issues). The guilt is generally from other people who are not even involved in the situation, usually have never even met the dog or people involved. I realized any guilt I felt over selling Pan was because of how I thought I'd be perceived by others. *After actually seeing Pan with his new owner all of that was erased *and people who think they know everything without ever having met me or my dogs can just shove it


I guess I'm the type of person who is afraid to give in too soon. What if there is a magical fix and I didn't find it? What if I didn't try hard enough, work hard enough?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Unfortunately, the dominant male is going to punish the submissive male for receiving favor from you(among other things he will punish him for). So your desire for these two to get along and "share" your affections was not going to happen once the fighting had started.


This is great. 
You know, I've seen this here, even on this board, people saying, when one dog steals something, take it from the dog who stole it and give it back to the dog they stole it from.
I think that is bad advice, personally. That's how we THINK it ought to work. If it was, say, human children, that's what would work.

But in the dog world, my experience is, the "top dog" who stole the whatever, _will_ get back with the underdog, who you just showed favor to.
And they'll wait until your back is turned, to do it!

I think the better way to handle it, is to take the item and remove it totally. No hard feelings between the dogs, peace is kept, and above all, you're "powerful" because you removed said object completely from the situation. 

In your case, chelle, the object is you... I think I posted this a while back? Did you see it?
Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals

And in checking - http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/many.txt


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> I'm one week into rotate/crate due to Bailey's neuter. It sucks. It sucks BAD. I hate living this way. It might be different if each dog didn't mind being outside alone for a time, but neither one wants to be. They cry, they bark. I am running inside and outside non-stop. This is exhausting and no way to live for any of us.





> I did find ignoring each kept the peace. Saving the lovey-dovey stuff for when each dog was separate and basically, behaving very dictator-like. Truth is.. I don't want that.  When it is just the girls and one of the boys, I can behave any way I want; I can love up on any dog I want. THAT is what I want in my home.





> What if there is a magical fix and I didn't find it? What if I didn't try hard enough, work hard enough?


So what if you DID try and work hard enough? How much is enough? What about YOU??

You know there is no "magical" fix, only hard work and dedication. But your first two quotes emphasize that you want to live a normal life, able to relax and be yourself, be comfortable in your own household. Who wouldn't want that?? I know I do! The idea that you should have to "try" and "work" so hard just to keep these two dogs together defeats its own purpose. So maybe those two are able to live in the same household without bloody battles, but where does that leave YOU? Frazzled, stressed, at your wits' end, playing a role you don't like and you don't want to play, never letting your guard down. 

As much as you want it to be, I doubt there will ever be a time in the future when the two brothers play and love on each other like they did in the good old days. I think the best you can expect at this point is for them to ignore or tolerate each other--and only if you change your whole lifestyle to a thing you do not like.

As much as others may try to lay a guilt trip on you about rehoming a dog... unless they have walked in your shoes, they have absolutely nothing constructive to say and you should not waste a moment of your time with them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW if you want to cuddle with the boys, do it while the other one is outside, and vise versa.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I go into people's homes and provide consultations for behavioral issues. I take into consideration the dog or dogs, the owners or handlers, the environment , and use many many years of experience is coming to a conclusion.


No mention of a "magic fix" there, just lots of different factors that all add up to a practical decision. Jeez, you're a stubborn woman chelle!  You keep saying that it's all up to you, when even the pro says it isn't.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> ....In your case, chelle, the object is you... I think I posted this a while back? Did you see it?
> Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals
> 
> And in checking - http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/many.txt


No, I hadn't seen that but just read both. Very interesting, especially the Shirley Chong one. Gives me some things to think about.



Freestep said:


> So what if you DID try and work hard enough? How much is enough? What about YOU??
> 
> You know there is no "magical" fix, only hard work and dedication. But your first two quotes emphasize that you want to live a normal life, able to relax and be yourself, be comfortable in your own household. Who wouldn't want that?? I know I do! The idea that you should have to "try" and "work" so hard just to keep these two dogs together defeats its own purpose. So maybe those two are able to live in the same household without bloody battles, but where does that leave YOU? *Frazzled, stressed, at your wits' end, playing a role you don't like and you don't want to play, never letting your guard down. *
> 
> ...


I can't lie; I long for a normal life again. Nothing's been normal since Tuckie came here. We had some really good times, granted. Sure started VERY rocky, but then was so good.... so good. Watching and playing and working with them both was a major highlight in my life. Taking that first birthday pic with their cakes.. was very joyous. And I do mean 'joyous' -- deeply satisfying. Not many things bring that level of joy, but that did. All those nights spent in the yard with them without any issues, watching them play... deeply joyous. Watching them roll around and kiss each other on the living room floor... deeply joyous. It is hard to accept it is over.

This hurts. 

I am sorry to blather, but I am so appreciative that I can do so here. Bailey is definitely ready to be loose in the house during the workday, but due to Tuckie being here and that they clearly cannot be loose in the house together, I am *still* coming home at lunch twice per week and this is tiring and expensive. Been doing this for about ? 14 months now. I work 20 minutes away and have an hour lunch break. Yeah, I gotta fly! I am tired of it!!!!!! When I took Bails in as a pup, I knew I was in for the long haul, all those days driving home at lunch, but I thought that'd be over by now - and it would be without Tuckie. God I feel like an a-hole for saying that! I am a very loyal person who doesn't just give up... but maybe I'm just up against too much. I can't do this alone anymore. The roommate helps some, but it really takes more than that. I paid a friend $25 just tonight to spend 25 minutes with each dog out in the yard so I could have some peace. I was just too tired to do the run back and forth thing. 

I feel so defeated.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chelle said:


> I guess I'm the type of person who is afraid to give in too soon. What if there is a magical fix and I didn't find it? What if I didn't try hard enough, work hard enough?


Well I was the total opposite. My husband and I discussed this sort of thing before we owned multiple dogs. We had already decided that given our lifestyle, the size of our home, how *we* prefer to keep dogs...doing a permanent crate-and-rotate was never going to be an option. I can't really explain it but when things turned bad between the dogs I just knew it was over for them. They just had it in for each other and at one point I ended up in the ER. I am not angry at the dogs about that but it was *exactly* what we were worried about and why we made the decision not to live like that. We had been separating dogs and someone made a simple mistake and it ended up with me going to the hospital and then coming home to treat a dog. That incident happened after I'd already sold one of the dogs (but made an agreement with the new owner on when to take the dog) so it was not a deciding factor but in a split second a mistake can happen an both dogs paid the price in the fight, Coke was so upset over seeing the fight that he hid in the basement, I had my hand stitched, and my husband was terrified to go near either dog. I don't know why things changed. Just a week before I photographed the same two dogs sharing peanut butter jars and sleeping with their heads on each other but once it changed it didn't matter why.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm sorry you're so down, chelle. This might be a stupid idea, but what about maybe boarding Tucker for a day or two? Just to give you a break, and maybe give Bailey a chance to miss him?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> ..... I don't know why things changed. Just a week before I photographed the same two dogs sharing peanut butter jars and sleeping with their heads on each other but once it changed it didn't matter why.


What a drag. Ok. I'm getting the point it may not be about me and is simply about them. ****.



Blanketback said:


> I'm sorry you're so down, chelle. This might be a stupid idea, but what about maybe boarding Tucker for a day or two? Just to give you a break, and maybe give Bailey a chance to miss him?


I am going on a camp trip in a little more than a week. I am boarding Tuckie. I am a big camper, but this year, not so much. In large part due to bad weather, but also due to the difficulty of the dogs. Granted, we had a great trip with the two boys last time, but clearly we cannot do that at this point. My sanity cannot cope with it. I'm taking my two girls and Bails. I feel like a jerk to say I am looking forward to having only three dogs to deal with. It will feel like a major vacation to only have the three who have no issues.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> What a drag. Ok. I'm getting the point it may not be about me and is simply about them.


YA THINK?  This is what I've been trying to say all this time. It's not YOU, it's not your fault, you did nothing wrong. Dogs will be dogs and same-sex littermates will fight. It's nature. No matter how tough you are, you cannot singlehandedly change nature. You can bust your butt trying to make things work, forcing yourself to live a way you don't want to live, and the difference will be marginal at best. Think about it... 10+ more years of what you've been doing this week, is that how you want to spend your life? Is that what you really think is best?

You know in your heart what is best. The sooner you accept this, accept your decision, stop torturing yourself, and move forward in the direction you need to go, the better off EVERYONE will be.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Yes, and in my experience those who "make it work" are those who don't truely have two dogs that are FIGHTING. They have lots of little dogs, or a couple of big dogs who get into, as some have said, "tiffs" or "squabbles" or as I call them "slobber fights" where nothing happens but a little slobber and some hurt feelings. These issues between her two boys has been building for awhile, and IME is probably going to blow up in the near future and they won't be mere slobber fights anymore.
> 
> I used to think like you did, that it's just all about pack structure and the owner wasn't "alpha" enough or a strong enough leader to manage a pack of dogs, etc. Then my beautifully well trained and insanely well socialized now almost 9 yr old female GSD decided when she hit sexual maturity that she was no longer interested in living with another female dog. After years of doing every possible thing to try to work with her, I finally started talking to real trainers and doing serious research and found that this isn't uncommon, and once it starts it generally doesn't stop. It's been crate and rotate since, but we also have a huge fenced yard, and large kennel, so it's not always one in a crate and one in the house. We make it work, sure, but it's not fun and it's not easy and honestly there are days it just stinks. She hasn't had this other dog long, and isn't as attached, so I'd rehome one of them in that situation.


 My experience was much like your's but my girls were same age and got along fine until they were around 3. The first one I had from a puppy, the second I got at a little over a year old. Their first few fights were escalating squabbles, no real injuries. Then they learned how to fight well and started damaging each other. There is such a learning curve to separating dogs and each time they'd get out together, they would injure each other. They once sent a family member to the ER and almost caused them to lose a finger. These dogs were both very socialized, good, happy dogs otherwise. The first one was the same sex aggressive one and she would fight with any mature female in the household. Yet, she went to doggy daycare with me on a daily basis without any issues. She was extremely well trained, well socialized and definitely did not have any "dominance issues" with me what so ever. Best dog ever really...except that she wanted to kill other females that she lived with.

Once you experience this sort of same sex aggression, it becomes obvious that it is about you at all. It isn't that you are some how failing to properly manage the dogs or you aren't a good enough leader or firm enough owner or whatever else people who've never experienced it like to suggest is the issue. It's about two dogs, who can no longer tolerate sharing resources and space with each other. They are dogs, animals and this is not an abnormal or unnatural behavior. In a more natural setting without human intervention the dogs would end up either fighting to the death or one would choose to leave. 

I did 10 years of strict Crate and Rotate (or as i like to call it RotatOdog!) and I'm not sure I would choose to do it again. It's actually the reason that I don't currently have any GSDs. Once my old girls passed I decided that I would not bring another GSD into the house. I have multiple dogs and both males and females. I know there's plenty of GSDs who are not same sex aggressive but I'd just rather not take the chance, since there is no way to know until the dogs involved are mature. It was a sad choice to make because I love the breed but things are so easier with the dogs now. 



Whiteshepherds said:


> People keep mentioning that littermates often have these kinds of problems, but if I remember right, these dogs weren't raised together, they only met after they were at least a year old or something like that? Does that make a difference?


 It doesn't have to be siblings, close in age, same sex dogs are more likely to have same sex aggression issues. And certain breeds, like GSDs are more prone to the issue than others.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

chelle said:


> I assume you mean if I am "not" willing to rehome one.. but yes, you are right. I will need help if they remain. I am very curious to know about the exercises?


Yes, that is what I meant. 

Seriously would love to tell you about these exercises, however, part if it is based on Sierra's triggers and we were just getting started when Jax was laid up due to her ACL. You need to get a trainer that can eval your dogs and find their triggers to modify that behavior. And I don't understand it all enough to be able to confidently describe it to you.

However, the important part of what I was trying to say was these fights will escalate. Ours started and were easily separated. They have escalated to the point that Sierra will latch onto Jax's throat and go for her belly. That is an intent to crush her throat and kill. Jax fights back defensively and Sierra goes for stitches.

Someone in your household WILL go to the ER...whether it is your dogs, you, or everyone. 

You either need to crate and rotate while working with a professional or you need to rehome Tucker. And you will probably still need to get a professional in to help with Bailey.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Am on phone so is a pain to type much, but what about muzzling ?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

chelle said:


> Am on phone so is a pain to type much, but what about muzzling ?


That won't take away the psychological issues, nor the stress the dogs are under.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Muzzling is a very short term solution at best.

chelle, did they actually cause each other damage? Bleeding wounds?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Muzzling will probably make it worse - for them. I've noticed muzzled dogs seem more likely to be on edge, they know they can't defend themselves, but still feel threatened, which as you can imagine is very stressful. 

I didn't read the whole thread, but you can do all the training in the world, if these two are determined to dislike each other, you can't change it. 

I had friends who had female siblings they had to separate. What they did instead of crate and rotate - which I really don't like - is they fenced off the area outside of the back door so the dog could have the kitchen and half on the yard to herself. And they put a tall gate in the kitchen door leading to the dining room, and rotated the dogs a couple times a week, so one got run of the rest of the house at a time, they did perfectly fine, no fence-fighting at all after they got used to the system. They were happy dogs. 

It sucks when this happens, but I wish you the best of luck.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Many moons ago, I believe it was Carmen who said something to the effect that ( our dogs or pets should add to our lives not detract from them) or something to that effect.

It really opened my eyes to what extent people will go to trying to force something to work.

Jean and some like her have that ability to take difficult situations and work with dogs others wouldn't. I believe helping difficult dogs adds something to those individuals lives.

To most people though I believe all that stress and concern detracts from having anything that resembles a normal happy home. It's probably not good for your mental or physical health either.

I can't tell you what to do that would be best for you but it sure doesn't sound like having these dogs together is adding to your overall quality of life.

I sure do wish you the best. You have gone above and beyond already.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Many moons ago, I believe it was Carmen who said something to the effect that ( our dogs or pets should add to our lives not detract from them) or something to that effect.
> 
> .....
> 
> To most people though I believe all that stress and concern detracts from having anything that resembles a normal happy home. It's probably not good for your mental or physical health either.


This is dead on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs are supposed to lower your blood pressure, if they are raising it, then well, that isn't good.

The problem is that you have a vested interest in both dogs, or all four of your dogs. You like the dogs. You even love the dogs, and giving one up just feels like failing the dog. 

This simply isn't the case. Some dogs are just not meant to be in the packs they are in. Some do best as an only. Some would be fine with a dog of the opposite sex. 

You can do a better job than a LOT of people with each of four dogs than they do with just one. But, sometimes we do a disservice to the dog, to deny them with the opportunity to be the center of the universe, when, while we have them, they are one of many. 

If you choose to keep and separate these dogs, what I do is I have some indoor/outdoor kennels, where they can go from and outdoor area, to a an area within the sun room separated by tall or covered x-pens, and then separated from the main part of the house by extra-tall baby gates that they cannot scale. 

Then I swing a shower-board panel between the lower half of the house, and the upper half of the house, so I can keep a dog indoors, but away from the baby gates where the in/out dogs are. I have learned to swing gates shut behind me, and ensure that the board is up. And for the most part this is just a preventative, for while I have had some fights -- most of those girls are gone now, mostly I just prevent from the git-go. It is my pre-vent defense. But then all my girls are intact, and there is always someone in, going in, or coming out of heat. 

In the last 5 years, there has been only the one scrimmage between Ninja and Jenna, and a quick chase down between Heidi and Gretta. One was a crate-failure, the other was a failure on my part to be sure the gate was shut before letting another out. But it is all training and management -- training me not to forget to change something, and managing the fencing. 

But I signed up for this. 

If you rehome Tucker, then he gets more attention, and your dogs get more attention, and things get less stressful for them and for you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Chelle, is there any truth to the idea that you would rather keep Tucker but want to keep both because giving up Bailey would make you feel as I'd you've done something bad?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Muzzling is a very short term solution at best.
> 
> chelle, did they actually cause each other damage? Bleeding wounds?


I should've waited to post that about the muzzling since I couldn't explain why I was asking. I did mean for short term. Just so I don't have to keep doing this in the house, out of the house thing non stop... Last night Tuckie got frustrated on his tieout and broke free. I don't know how, the line was not broken, nor were the clips... but there he was...

I am looking around at possibilities for rehoming. My CL ad yielded one nutjob and one maybe. A friend of a friend is interested and we're talking. I've given them the links to his pics and the webpage I made talking about everything from the start. The one rescue I contacted about a courtesy post said no, that without knowing the dog they can't "represent" him. Petfinder no longer does classifieds.

Clearly, this could take some time.

In the past there were a couple of scratches. Never a puncture wound of any kind. Even the couple of scratches were superficial and no blood. The last altercation left no marks whatsoever on either of them.



Jack's Dad said:


> ...I sure do wish you the best. You have gone above and beyond already.


Thank you.



selzer said:


> ... If you rehome Tucker, then he gets more attention, and your dogs get more attention, and things get less stressful for them and for you.


Thanks for your post and ideas. Tucker deserves to be the center of someone's universe. He does deserve a better life than here. This maybe wasn't so true before, when things were good and the boys were buddies, but it is true now. This crate/rotate actually is making each dog spend more time alone and/or crated. When I spend time with one, the other is crying. I'm goin a little nutty here. Ok, totally nutty. No one is getting proper exercise, either.



Sunflowers said:


> Chelle, is there any truth to the idea that you would rather keep Tucker but want to keep both because giving up Bailey would make you feel as I'd you've done something bad?


No.  Bailey is my buddy in a way no dog has been. I love my girls, but Suri is independent, like a cat. Dolly is a sweet old girl and I adore her personality (sweet!) but she is getting older, doesn't care to be too active and is mostly blind and likes to just chill out. 

I remember how my son's dog, Lexus (Bailey's mom) was so velcro to him and thought, wow, I like that. Now I have it. (And I don't mean in a resource guarding sort of way.) He rarely disobeys me and is actually pretty easy to handle. Could I have that level of bond with Tucker? Maybe, but I could never give up a dog I *already* have that bond with for a dog that only *maybe* I could have that bond with. Will Tucker always be an escape risk? Yes. As compared to Bailey, who will not leave the yard, it is definitely preferable!

I have put my heart, soul, oodles of $$ and tons of time into Bailey, his training, socialization, etc from an early age ... I can't do that with Tucker; I can't rewind the clock and raise him. Is he trainable? Sure. But do I want to, in large part, "start over" ? Honestly, no. Cruel, but honest. I love the results of the work with Bailey. I love telling him go upstairs, go downstairs, go to your room, to your crate, sit here, come here, blah... and he does it. I'm not fond of his love of eating Ivory soap, but I guess you can't have it all.

Tucker has some deficits (tendency to still jump up on occasion, when very excited, needing a very secure yard and some neck sensitivities...) BUT I think he is going to acclimate to a new home far, far better than Bailey ever could. And Tucker is genuinely friendly to everything. Bailey is standoffish to most strangers. He prefers to check 'em out at a distance and approach them, if at all, on his own time. Tucker is just right there -- hey! hey! look at me! pet me! I wuv you! I seriously believe Bailey got many more of the Shepherd genes than Tucker, who got mixed in with a Lab somehow.

Or at least that's the stuff my brain has come up with as I lay in bed at night and think about it all.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Tucker loves Bailey. It is just Bailey that has been a buttwad to Tucker.

Thought I'd add this little snippet.... (I was so trying to be sneaky and point the camcorder backwards..)

Outside time is over, it is getting late, they've had all the exercise they're going to get for today.

Bailey is not happy in his crate. Normally he is fine in his crate. No seperation anxiety or any of that. Tonight,,,, not thrilled.... (granted, his exercise level is down after the neuter, but we're at 9 days and about ready to start rockin...)

So here comes Tuckie to lay near him. Note Tucker does not get "very" near him, but he comes the length of the house to be close to him. He could lay down 100 places, but he wants to get close to Bails. (but not too close)





 
An hour or so later, we've rotated, so Bails is out and Tucker in.. and now Bailey goes to lay close to Tucker's crate.

These nutty, crazy, insane dogs! There has been no growling, no nothing.. they just go lay fairly close to each other. Not saying it means a thing, but is interesting to me.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Your eyes must be rolling our of your head, lol. After all the bs and now they're lying as close as they can get to each other. That's too funny!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Your eyes must be rolling our of your head, lol. After all the bs and now they're lying as close as they can get to each other. That's too funny!


It's a dog conspiracy.  They are trying to drive their human mama into insanity. It may work. Errr, actually, I think I'm already there.

But seriously, SOMEONE, please tell me what this is about. Why are they attempting to be close to one anther?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> In the past there were a couple of scratches. Never a puncture wound of any kind. Even the couple of scratches were superficial and no blood. The last altercation left no marks whatsoever on either of them.



I know I'm going to regret jumping back in but this here is why I suggest having them evaluated by a professional! I've had dogs that have wanted to kill each other before. I've done the crate and rotate thing. Dogs that want to harm each other don't mess around. There are puncture wounds, rips and blood. Brothers who fight are loud and snarly and you see lots of teeth, but very rarely is there an injury. Its like when you would fight with your best friend or a sibling. You don't really want to hurt them but you are sick and tired of their crap. 

After 25 years of being owned by dogs I've gotten fairly good at knowing the difference and knowing if I need to jump in or not but for someone who has never experienced it before it can be scary and stressful. Even for me it can be nerve-wracking because I'm not an expert and I don't want to see anyone get hurt. Which again is why I strongly suggest hiring someone who does this for a living because they can show you what to look for and suggest when you need to step in or stand back.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Keep in mind... I am NOT a professional trainer, nor am I a behavioralist. What I take from this short video is that one brother is hearing crying from another. He's wanting to know 'why' the crying is going on... maybe even wondering why his brother is crated. However, he's stressed. He doesn't get up to go near the crate to 'check him out' with tail wagging, ears up..which I would expect from a confident dog. IMO, he's conflicted. His past experience has shown him that getting too close could cause a totally different reaction...so he keeps his distance. To me, this isn't 'brotherly love' you're seeing. I know you want to see it, and I don't blame you. My Pug runs right up to Grim's kennel to 'see' him even if he's not making any noise. We've had to crate dogs after surgeries, and they were all over each other checking out the 'sick one' in the crate. IMO, the dog that isn't crated is stressed. Maybe even worried about whether the crated dog is going to remain in the crate. 

A behaviorist to step in is going to be your best shot. I fear that one day, they are REALLY going to have a knock down, drag out fight. IMO, a behaviorist needs to be found, hired, and in for a consult before both dogs are 100% from their surgeries. I am with the crowd that believes it would be both beneficial to ALL your dogs and you to re-home Tucker. I KNOW that's not what you want to hear. However, I believe I'm seeing stress even though one dog is safely crated.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

They don't love each other.....it's wishful, but its not the case and you can't let that factor into your thinking.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah 24 hours after this photo was taken one of these two dogs decided the other had to go and gave it his best attempt.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

That picture looks like a problem waiting to happen. The dog on top was clearly dominating the one under and the one under did not look happy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> But seriously, SOMEONE, please tell me what this is about. Why are they attempting to be close to one anther?


It could be an attempt to "claim" the space that the other dog is in, a subtle form of dominance.

Or it could be nothing more than one dog lying down where he wants to, knowing the other dog is crated and cannot do anything about it.

One thing I would NOT assume is that the brothers truly love each other deep down and want to be close to each other.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

chelle said:


> These nutty, crazy, insane dogs! There has been no growling, no nothing.. they just go lay fairly close to each other. Not saying it means a thing, but is interesting to me.


Chelle, 

My GSD and my Golden got along like best buds for the first 3 years of my GSD's life. Then out of nowhere, they had ONE squabble - started by the Golden - and my GSD made every attempt to take him out. Including having the Golden by the neck and thrashing him. 

For the rest of the Golden's life, I'll have to crate and rotate. No doubts about it. They always lay by each other. If one is in the back yard, the other is by the window. If one is in the large run in the yard, the other is laying by the fence. Make so mistake, this is NOT done out of love. As with your two, they aren't growling either. But watch very closely for the stink eye. Watch the stiffness in the body as the other approaches. Just slight, but it's there. Watch where the other boy marks. Watch closely, you'll see it. 

It brings to mind the saying, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

chelle said:


> But seriously, SOMEONE, please tell me what this is about. Why are they attempting to be close to one anther?


I would say for the same reason that after a fight, dogs "lick and make up". They don't live in the same "time" as we do. Everything for them is done and then over. But each time they fight, they will gain confidence and eventually you will be in an ER...vet's or human


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

shepherdmom said:


> That picture looks like a problem waiting to happen. The dog on top was clearly dominating the one under and the one under did not look happy.


I assume you're being sarcastic? The dogs slept together for years, often just like that. I didn't make an effort to pull them apart because up until recently, there was never a fight or even a snark.

Sometimes things just change, even over night. My point was that there's nothing we can do about it. We can try to analyze every photo or behavior but it doesn't change the fact that if the dogs are going for blood then they either need to be managed or one re-homed.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mmmm okay thank you for the feedback. Interesting. I'm learning.



Lilie said:


> .......As with your two, they aren't growling either. But *watch very closely for the stink eye*. *Watch the stiffness in the body as the other approaches. Just slight, but it's there*. Watch where the other boy marks. Watch closely, you'll see it.
> 
> It brings to mind the saying, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."


Yes, I see it. Very subtle, but yes.

Tucker is definitely ambivilent to getting any closer to Bailey's crate than what the vid showed. 

We're settling into a routine. It certainly isn't ideal, but everyone is safe at least.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Freestep said:


> It could be an attempt to "claim" the space that the other dog is in, a subtle form of dominance.
> 
> Or it could be nothing more than one dog lying down where he wants to, knowing the other dog is crated and cannot do anything about it.
> 
> One thing I would NOT assume is that the brothers truly love each other deep down and want to be close to each other.


This is where my mind went... The same thing happens with our girls but it's not because they're worried about each other, it's because they aren't quite ready to back down yet and if we let them they'd taunt each other through the crate.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> It could be an attempt to "claim" the space that the other dog is in, a subtle form of dominance.
> 
> Or it could be nothing more than one dog lying down where he wants to, knowing the other dog is crated and cannot do anything about it.
> 
> One thing I would NOT assume is that the brothers truly love each other deep down and want to be close to each other.


It could well be this. Why aren't both crated?
I'd certainly do that (crate both) until a decision has been made or you give one away. Maybe for life.
If "poor Bailey" (how HE sees it) is in a crate and Tucker isn't, and Bailey fancies himself the "top dog", you're frustrating him greatly by controlling his freedom while Tucker has all the freedom in the world.

If nothing else, I'd crate Tucker which would "enforce" Bailey's feelings that _he _ (Bailey) can freely come and go.

Remember that to be leader you must control resources. Space and freedom are resources.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> It could well be this. Why aren't both crated?
> I'd certainly do that (crate both) until a decision has been made or you give one away. Maybe for life.
> If "poor Bailey" (how HE sees it) is in a crate and Tucker isn't, and Bailey fancies himself the "top dog", you're frustrating him greatly by controlling his freedom while Tucker has all the freedom in the world.
> 
> ...


I alternate the crating. I don't have many options there.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If you have no way to use two crates, then always crate Tucker. Situation solved.

I say this because apparently Tucker has no issue being the "underdog" so treat him like one, thereby enforcing Bailey's assumed role as top dog. 

**Is that where all this started, btw??? With Bailey being crated while Tucker ran the house?
See my note in HEALTH about my Dachshund to get an idea how stressful it is for some dogs to be crated!!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> If you have no way to use two crates, then always crate Tucker. Situation solved.
> 
> I say this because apparently Tucker has no issue being the "underdog" so treat him like one, thereby enforcing Bailey's assumed role as top dog.
> 
> ...


No, I DO have two crates. When one dog is inside, the other is crated or outside. I hate to crate them both at the same time because I would literally have them in crates 12 hours a day. So... I take one outside and play, etc... let one roam in the house. Come inside, crate the loose one up, bring in the exercised one, crate him up. Remove other dog from crate, go outside with that dog. Come inside, let crated dog have house roam. Go back outside, play.

Repeat.

Later in the evenings, when I'm just plain tired, I have crated them both for a while, especially after eating, to just chill and let me chill. That's about the only time both are crated. 

Dang made me tired just to type that. 

Prior to the skirmishes starting, both dogs crates were left out and open and they went in and out as they pleased. No one had to be in while the other was out, except for meals.

On a positive note, it looks as though I may be doing an initial visit to someone interested in Tucker. A friend of a friend. She has a nine year old son, though, so I hope Tucker isn't too rambunctious for him. She has a big yard and 6 foot privacy fence. She lost her Lab 18 months ago and doesn't want to raise a puppy again.... so we will see. I don't want to get my hopes up too high for a perfect home. No such thing as perfect, I'm sure. Even if they hit it off like gangbusters, I wouldn't let him go without a couple visits. I want Tucker to get to know them first. 

What might be a good plan there? (I'm going off topic, sorry, but I'll take that liberty on my own thread, lol.) Let him meet them. Hang out, talk to them, watch the interactions, see their yard, spend a little time, etc. Maybe set up another meet Saturday for a bit. Then maybe let him stay with them alone for a time on Sunday, an hour or so? Granted, I'm putting the cart before the horse that all will be ideal, but .... I don't want to just "dump" him off at the first or even second meeting. I couldn't. I want him to look forward to going to this place, so if it is going to work out, at the final drop off, he would be happy to go there. Does that make sense?

Yes, I'm overthinking and I don't care. I have to do this in a way that my heart only shatters and doesn't explode.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounds like a plan, I would do some visits as well, and let him stay longer/alone when you think he's comfortable and your comfortable with the situation.

This could be GOOD, you would know where he was, could probably visit, let them do a trial time with him after the visits..

You'll know if it's right..


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> **Is that where all this started, btw??? With Bailey being crated while Tucker ran the house?


When did that happen? 

Bailey was crated right after being neutered, is that what you're talking about? The issues started before then.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

She already replied :thumbup:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> What might be a good plan there? (I'm going off topic, sorry, but I'll take that liberty on my own thread, lol.) Let him meet them. Hang out, talk to them, watch the interactions, see their yard, spend a little time, etc. Maybe set up another meet Saturday for a bit. Then maybe let him stay with them alone for a time on Sunday, an hour or so?


Do they live nearby? If so, bring Tucker to THEIR house. That way, you can see how the dog would be living, what their household setup is like, how sturdy their fence is, etc. and if they have resident pets, they can meet Tucker too.

Also, this will avoid the whole issue of Bailey watching Tucker get attention from everyone.

However, don't make these folks feel as if you want to "check them out" by going to their house, or they may feel uncomfortable and pressured. Just casually remark that you'll be going out that way and Tucker loves car rides, or just mention the fact that your other dog will get "jealous" if he sees Tucker get any attention.

If you feel very comfortable with the situation, Tucker can change hands right there. If you need time to think about it, make another appointment with them later in the week.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If they have another dog don't do intros on their property. 
Take the dogs to a neutral location and walk but no nose touching for a while until you observe how they're doing together.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That lead on a home for Tucker sounds great - the young boy sure will be ecstatic! My first 2 GSDs were adopted as adults, and they both meant the world to me. They bonded with me without any troubles at all. In fact, my first one saw his old owner every now and then, but he didn't give him any special attention. I just wanted to let you know how much us "new" owners appreciate the unselfishness of you "old" owners. I know it hurts real bad though. More hugs!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Do they live nearby? If so, bring Tucker to THEIR house. That way, you can see how the dog would be living, what their household setup is like, how sturdy their fence is, etc. and if they have resident pets, they can meet Tucker too.
> 
> Also, this will avoid the whole issue of Bailey watching Tucker get attention from everyone.
> 
> ...


As she has explained to me, they had a Lab/Malamute mix that was put down 18 months ago at 15 years old due to failed hips and blindness. They have no pets now.


We are getting together at their place tomorrow late afternoon. She does live close by.


I have no intention of handing him over tomorrow. Nope.  Too soon. I want at least a couple visits, then a trial period of an hour or two.. then maybe a couple days... with them completely knowing he can (must) come back to me if there are any issues. Slow and easy here. 



Blanketback said:


> That lead on a home for Tucker sounds great - the young boy sure will be ecstatic! My first 2 GSDs were adopted as adults, and they both meant the world to me. They bonded with me without any troubles at all. In fact, my first one saw his old owner every now and then, but he didn't give him any special attention. I just wanted to let you know how much us "new" owners appreciate the unselfishness of you "old" owners. I know it hurts real bad though. More hugs!


She says her son is very amped up and excited, BUT he is only nine. If he is a smallish boy, Tucker could physically knock him down when he gets in his "moments." We have come so, so far on the jumping up, but he occasionally regresses on that. Especially with new people and especially with people who flail their hands all over the place.

I have informed them of all of these things, and they still want to meet him. I guess that's a positive.  They're also obviously not new to big dogs.

I pray the meeting goes well, but if not, that's okay. I truly and deeply believe if Tucker could have someone he truly considered his "own," he'd be such a happy dog. He and I have bonded pretty deeply, but he always knows Bailey is there, Bailey has "claimed" me. For that reason, Tucker has gravitated more towards my roommate, because the jealousy thing isn't there, and is a "safe" choice for him. Back before things went south, a typical night after exercise was done and we were nearing bedtime was Bailey at my feet and Tucker at roommate's feet. Never an issue. Sure wish I could have it back, but I'm accepting it just couldn't be like that again.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I started a new thread about the actual re-homing. Please use it to talk to me about that aspect so everything doesn't get all mixed in together: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...a-cont-search-begins-how-properly-rehome.html

If anyone has further info/advice, etc about the boys and issues between them, pls do post here. I really appreciate everything I can get on that. Even if I am looking to rehoming, it isn't as though it'll happen tomorrow and we still need help/guidance with management until the day comes.

Thank you everyone.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I assume you're being sarcastic? The dogs slept together for years, often just like that. I didn't make an effort to pull them apart because up until recently, there was never a fight or even a snark.


Wow, actually no I wasn't being sarcastic. It looked like a problem to me. I would never let one dog sleep on another ones head. Also neither one had the soft (I love you eyes) that looked like a pretty dominate stare to me, but of course its hard to tell from a picture.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Its interesting...I believe these dogs come from a husky/GSD breeding. Kind of crazy that one is so much GSD (Bailey) and the other is so much husky (Tucker). I just keep thinking of all the issues going on and they're exactly the stuff you'd expect from the two breeds.

Kind of cool and interesting...and what scares me about mixed breeds that are so different. Like people that want a lab/GSD mix. I just go...you won't know what dog you have until 18 months old!!! Sound familiar? All observations though and absolutely nothing wrong with giving a mixed breed a home when it needs one!!! It's just another reason not to mix breeds so that you can have "the best of both worlds."

And with all we have learned about these two dogs over the last year + its interesting to think about their development and how cool of a real life experiment this was. There was so much involved in this whole thing! Littermates...two breeds...different upbringings...neutering/not neutering...I could go on and on. And it just shows how even someone that is so dedicated has a hard time dealing with a situation like this. Makes me think of the majority of dog owners out there that wouldn't go nearly as far for their dogs as chelle has and what would happen to those dogs if they were seeing these kinds of issues.

Chelle...take your experience and write a book!!!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Its interesting...I believe these dogs come from a husky/GSD breeding. *Kind of crazy that one is so much GSD (Bailey) and the other is so much husky (Tucker). I just keep thinking of all the issues going on and they're exactly the stuff you'd expect from the two breeds.*
> 
> Kind of cool and interesting...and what scares me about mixed breeds that are so different. Like people that want a lab/GSD mix. I just go...*you won't know what dog you have until 18 months old!!*! Sound familiar? All observations though and absolutely nothing wrong with giving a mixed breed a home when it needs one!!! It's just another reason not to mix breeds so that you can have "the best of both worlds."
> 
> ...


It is very interesting! These two have taught me A LOT and more every day. I agree with your other comments; you don't know what you'll get in a mixed pairing. You don't even 100% know in a purebred pairing, but this is to another extreme.

Tucker is somewhat the oddball of the litter. The only one with light brown eyes. The only one with one ear down. (Though that could've been an unaddressed medical thing, no way to know.) He is the biggest and heavy boned more so than the others. Whatever Husky is in him has shown thru some stubborness (could also be due to no training when young and not as much as he should be getting now,) and his recent desire to fence jump. His personality is very Lab like, though. 

Here is his dad: (Clearly not purebred Husky)



















One of the sons, interesting mix --


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh, goodness, the dad looks as if he has a lot GSD!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Oh, goodness, the dad looks as if he has a lot GSD!


The ears make you think that for sure! At one time I thought maybe Husky/GSD cross, but that doesn't explain the coat. Coat is all wrong for either one. 

He's also fairly small, about 45 pounds. All of his offspring outweigh him.

So clearly his parents were mixes as well. I have come to believe some mix of GSD, Husky and Lab. I've always wondered about this and am always curious as to people's opinions on what they see in him. I keep saying Lab partly due to coat, partly due to Tucker's looks & size and much based on behavior. (Bailey very dog friendly, except to his brother, grrrrr, Tucker being friendly to everything,) Who knows!!!!!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Could very well be. But the face, snout and chest look very GSD-like. Do Labs have softer coats?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Could very well be. But the face, snout and chest look very GSD-like. Do Labs have softer coats?


The Lab coat, to my understanding, is close to the skin, rather glossy like - just as the dad's is. As far as softer, I don't know.. maybe someone who knows more about Labs can chime in there.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

chelle said:


> The Lab coat, to my understanding, is close to the skin, rather glossy like - just as the dad's is. As far as softer, I don't know.. maybe someone who knows more about Labs can chime in there.


I grew up with labs, they have a heavy thick coat, the gloss comes from the oil naturally produced to help waterproof the coat. As to softness I'd say a GSD and Lab coat are very similar but a lab is more heavy feeling due to the oil 

The dad and littermate are very cute, I love husky markings . It's a very good chance the the dad is mixed with lab, he's very similar to most lab/husky mixes I've seen, especially the coat from what I can see from the photos


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> I grew up with labs, they have a heavy thick coat, the gloss comes from the oil naturally produced to help waterproof the coat. As to softness I'd say a GSD and Lab coat are very similar but a lab is more heavy feeling due to the oil
> 
> The dad and littermate are very cute, I love husky markings . It's a very good chance the the dad is mixed with lab, he's very similar to most lab/husky mixes I've seen, especially the coat from what I can see from the photos


Thanks for the info! Now, how to explain those EARS?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

chelle said:


> Thanks for the info! Now, how to explain those EARS?


You're welcome 

Whose ears? Tucker's?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> You're welcome
> 
> Whose ears? Tucker's?


No, ears on Dad! They're pure GSD quality! What Husky or Lab has those ears, lol. I'm just kidding mostly, it would seem there must be some kind of GSD influence in there somewhere, but admittedly, I am not sure what other dogs have tall standing ears like GSD's do.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

chelle said:


> No, ears on Dad! They're pure GSD quality! What Husky or Lab has those ears, lol. I'm just kidding mostly, it would seem there must be some kind of GSD influence in there somewhere, but admittedly, I am not sure what other dogs have tall standing ears like GSD's do.


Well that makes sense lol. FTR I love Tucker's one up one down look, it's very unique and adorable :wub:

That's the thing that's cool about mixes, you never know what's going to spring up! My sister got a puppy from a lab/beagle/blue heeler mix and all but one of the littermates went to families we knew. Not one of the 7 was the same in either appearance or personality, it was a real shock to see all the differences in the puppies!


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