# New Puppy Breeder? - please offer suggestions



## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Hello,

We are considering adding a new puppy to our family... Can you suggest reputable breeders in the Midwest? We live in Wisconsin.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Have you considered a golden retriever.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

Have you owned a golden retriever they are not low drive dogs


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

gsdsteve said:


> Have you considered a golden retriever.


Is there a way to block other users?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Shepp said:


> Is there a way to block other users?


i’ve sent you a PM


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In all fairness to Steve, who usually is very helpful, the original post did pretty much describe a Golden and had several contradictions between the working line requested and required temperament of a show line as well as the conflict of adopting vs buying.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Recommendations for a few reputable breeders in the Midwest? We live in Wisconsin.
Looking for a GSD with minimal (no) slope, and a temperament suitable for a family with children and other pets.
*We love our 9 y.o. White Shepherd, and want to get a puppy (maybe a Black and Tan, color not critical) while she is still alert and can enjoy it being around.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Steve was abrupt but the original post did bring to mind the traditional _golden_ temperament traits.A nice easy going family dog describes a gsd after three years or so of a great deal of work. It's a labor of love for many,but for others not so much
There are so many new members posting lately that are struggling with their puppies and weren't prepared for their energy level.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

maybe someone could offer a couple recommendations??


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Look into Wildhaus in Michigan. Chris might have a puppy that’s suitable for you in her next couple litters. They’re great working line dogs, and if you’re honest about your lifestyle and what you want, she’ll match you up with the right puppy. My boy (from her) is what I would call medium drive, and he’s amazing in the house. Easiest dog to live with I’ve ever had.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Pytheis said:


> Look into Wildhaus in Michigan. Chris might have a puppy that’s suitable for you in her next couple litters. They’re great working line dogs, and if you’re honest about your lifestyle and what you want, she’ll match you up with the right puppy. My boy (from her) is what I would call medium drive, and he’s amazing in the house. Easiest dog to live with I’ve ever had.


Beautiful dogs! Excellent working-line structure. Thank you.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

if you weed through the discussion, there are several recommendations in this thread.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Fodder said:


> if you weed through the discussion, there are several recommendations in this thread.


Ok, thanks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shepp said:


> Looking for a GSD with minimal (no) slope,


To help you when you speak to reputable working line breeders -

GSD are supposed to have a slope. It's a set angle IN the standard. It's been discussed numerous times on this board so I'm sure you can find information in a search. You can also look up the SV standard, which is what working line breeders adhere to, for more information.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> To help you when you speak to reputable working line breeders -
> 
> GSD are supposed to have a slope. It's a set angle IN the standard. It's been discussed numerous times on this board so I'm sure you can find information in a search. You can also look up the SV standard, which is what working line breeders adhere to, for more information.


I respectfully disagree, and feel that I am entitled to prefer a GSD with little-to-none slope. 

The standard may have evolved over the years, but I have seen photos of the original dogs, and feel that the working line structure is what I am looking for, to say nothing of the implications regarding hips/elbows.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

By all means, call the recommended working line breeders and ask them for a dog with no slope because a slope is detrimental to the hips and elbows. You are entitled to that.

I'm just gonna go work now instead of wasting my time trying to give you valid information.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

One thing I love about the GSD is the "on/off" switch.

My current dog (White Shepherd) is almost perfect (for us). She can sit inside all day contentedly, but literally at a moments notice she can be ready to play (She and I "play fight" pretty hard, and she loves going for walks). She can equally watch out the window all day long, or lay in her bed and not be bothered. She can go from 0-60 in one second, and can be "turned off" almost as quickly.

She instinctively protects my daughter when rough-housing with rowdy uncles, but does so in a way that is not outwardly aggressive. She will touch their arms with her mouth (soft bite), but not put pressure on it, or she will stand between them when she thinks the play is getting too rough.

She never barks, except very occasionally (She will bark at the FedEx guy but no the UPS guy, lol!). I think we are extremely lucky about this, and have never had a dog that was so quiet before. Only hoping, but not expecting this, in the next dog.

My daughter has a hamster that my dog will actually smell when out of the cage, but is careful not to harm her. She is such a sweet dog.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

You're in luck with timing. The North Central Regional Conformation Show & Breed Survey is this weekend in Cudahy, WI. I suggest you go watch and talk to people. 

I don't know what sort of entry numbers they're expecting this year, but you will see representative examples of the working line dogs in Wisconsin and breeders of the same. People are usually very happy to talk about their dogs and you can see if you find this sort of dog to your liking. 

*October 24-25, 2020*
OG Milchland
_Regional Conformation Show_, Breed Survey, Club Trial – Cudahy, WI
Titles offered: Show Rating, Breed Survey, IGP1-3, APr1-3, AD, BH
Judge: USCA Heidi Theis


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Here is a link to the entries - looks like 90 dogs. Well worth your time to go and watch. Given the slim trial opportunities this year due to Covid, this is probably one of your last opportunities to go see a number of different GSDs in one spot at one time in Wisconsin. Several breeders will be there as well.





__





Show Results






www.gsdeventsonline.com


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> Here is a link to the entries - looks like 90 dogs. Well worth your time to go and watch. This is probably your best opportunity (this year) to see a larger number of the working dogs in this area. Several breeders will be there as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure if we will be able to attend, but if so, is there a way to prepare ahead of time? A little overwhelming. How would we be able to identify who the potential breeders are? Do we simply search them one by one on the internet, or is there literature/info available with links anywhere? Thank you again.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I would suggest you just go and watch the dogs. Watch as many as you can. Watch the obedience, watch the bitework, watch the (conformation) show. You'll probably be drawn more to some dogs than to other dogs. Make a note of the numbers of the dog(s) that appeal to you, and look them up in the catalog. 

Most handlers are very happy to talk about their dogs *after* they are done competing or showing for the day.

The internet is useful, sure, but it's easy to drown in pedigrees and names if you aren't familiar with what you're looking at. Far better to go look at the dogs. If you don't see anything that appeals to you, you know to look elsewhere.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you want a dog with little slope, consider looking for a pet line. I have no idea how to find one, but I had a foster a long time ago that was pet lines. Working lines don’t have extreme slopes, but they also don’t have the traits you want. The breed is intended to have some slope. It acts a shock absorber.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> I would suggest you just go and watch the dogs. Watch as many as you can. Watch the obedience, watch the bitework, watch the (conformation) show. You'll probably be drawn more to some dogs than to other dogs. Make a note of the numbers of the dog(s) that appeal to you, and look them up in the catalog.
> 
> Most handlers are very happy to talk about their dogs *after* they are done competing or showing for the day.
> 
> The internet is useful, sure, but it's easy to drown in pedigrees and names if you aren't familiar with what you're looking at. Far better to go look at the dogs. If you don't see anything that appeals to you, you know to look elsewhere.


yes. I understand and agree - that sounds like the best way. 

*May have to hold off looking for a new dog until the pandemic is done. Are people still gathering in crowds? uncertain times.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Shepp said:


> yes. I understand and agree - that sounds like the best way.
> 
> *May have to hold off looking for a new dog until the pandemic is done. Are people still gathering in crowds? uncertain times.


Yep, take your time. There are a lot of carelessly bred "pet" GSD litters in Wisconsin, and I would strongly suggest you do NOT put your puppy money in those hands. 

Trials in the Midwest are starting to happen again. Some are allowing spectators, some aren't.

You'll most likely have more opportunities to look at dogs next spring, when there are a number of GSD competitions and shows in SE Wisconsin and Northern Illinois / Greater Chicago areas.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would not just show up there. USCA has put out recommendations on restrictions for spectators. Some clubs are not allowing any, some are allowing 1. You will need to contact the club prior and ask if they are allowing spectators.




WIBackpacker said:


> You're in luck with timing. The North Central Regional Conformation Show & Breed Survey is this weekend in Cudahy, WI. I suggest you go watch and talk to people.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I would not just show up there. USCA has put out recommendations on restrictions for spectators. Some clubs are not allowing any, some are allowing 1. You will need to contact the club prior and ask if they are allowing spectators.


ok, good to know. 
My wife will probably nix the idea anyway, as she is avoiding crowds right now. It's a good idea for the future, as one can potentially meet the dogs and owners in person.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Shepp said:


> Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure if we will be able to attend, but if so, is there a way to prepare ahead of time? A little overwhelming. How would we be able to identify who the potential breeders are? Do we simply search them one by one on the internet, or is there literature/info available with links anywhere? Thank you again.


The handlers wear numbers so you can find them in the catalog


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I should have added to my original post - 

The North Central show this weekend is officially allowing spectators.  Not all of them are, but this one is.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WIBackpacker said:


> I should have added to my original post -
> 
> The North Central show this weekend is officially allowing spectators.  Not all of them are, but this one is.


New England was HUGE with a lot of working line. Pictures are starting to go up. Super thrilled for Ashley and Basha.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Awww cool. I saw pics of Steve & Dagger, I'll snoop through Spacebook and see if I can find pics of everyone else..... So glad we can have trials again.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

That show is cancelled due to judge having Covid


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

WIBackpacker said:


> I should have added to my original post -
> 
> The North Central show this weekend is officially allowing spectators.  Not all of them are, but this one is.


That show is cancelled


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I think you will find that most will agree that a White GSD will not have the drives of a working line or show line puppy. They are typically pet breeding with no concern to structure or working ability. As for a slope, it was already said that it is in the description of the breed in the breed standard. Think of it more as an angle when the dog is in a three point stack position. All of my dogs have a strong straight back (point of shoulder to end of the ribs), and look square if just standing normally, but put them in a stack, and you can change the looks quite a bit. Many working lines are great family dogs, and the right breeder can match you up with the correct puppy in a litter, as they will vary from extreme high drive to easy going and laid back, in the same litter, depending on the individual breeding and the genetics involved.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

mnm said:


> I think you will find that most will agree that a White GSD will not have the drives of a working line or show line puppy. They are typically pet breeding with no concern to structure or working ability. As for a slope, it was already said that it is in the description of the breed in the breed standard. Think of it more as an angle when the dog is in a three point stack position. All of my dogs have a strong straight back (point of shoulder to end of the ribs), and look square if just standing normally, but put them in a stack, and you can change the looks quite a bit. Many working lines are great family dogs, and the right breeder can match you up with the correct puppy in a litter, as they will vary from extreme high drive to easy going and laid back, in the same litter, depending on the individual breeding and the genetics involved.



There seem to be sub-classifications for GSD: working, show, schutzund, guide...

I think a "working line" _*is*_ what I am looking for, with more of a "laid back drive" (to borrow your description), but how does a "pet" GSD differ from the above? 

Our current White GSD is pedigreed. The breeder said they were bred to herd sheep (showing pictures of the parents herding, and each puppy was taken to the farm to herd sheep once before being sold), but they were also show dogs. 

I understand Whites are considered "softer" in temperament. Although, what exactly is that attributed to? Is it just that they have been bred to be softer, or am I missing something? The Whites have always been in the bloodline (Greiff von Sparwasser), but I don't really want to get into whether they should be included in breed standard, or not.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Pedigreed means you can trace the lineage on paper through a registry. Can they do a variety of things, I 'm sure they can, but yes, they are generally considered to have softer temperament, which wouldn't bode well for herding sheep. They were bred away from, because the shepherd's couldn't see them in the flock of sheep, which caused problems with moving the herd and protecting them as well. If they were showing them, it wouldn't be in AKC, because the color is a DQ in the show ring. Most that I have ever seen were typically oversized in height and length, and had the softer temperaments, which many of us would consider to be pet lines, not bred for purpose or breed standard.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shepp said:


> There seem to be sub-classifications for GSD: working, show, schutzund, guide...
> 
> I think a "working line" _*is*_ what I am looking for, with more of a "laid back drive" (to borrow your description), but how does a "pet" GSD differ from the above?
> 
> ...


Just a few points for you to ponder. First and foremost, eight week old pups aren't herding sheep. At best they got some exposure. 

As to temperament, the GSD should be a family dog but not to the same extent as a Goldie in that they typically like THEIR family and should be somewhat standoffish with strangers as well as aware of boundaries. While a well bred GSD likes kids they have a dim view of trespassing adults. Once the white was considered a DQ the white dogs typically went to pet homes where over time the temperament evolved into something more compatible to that role, since typically there was no work involved. And as with all things once the were "forbidden" a subsect of people wanted them even more.
Interpretations of temperament abound on this forum, but there is no mention of aggression in the standard. The dog should be accepting of approach by a neutral stranger and while it should not make overtures to strangers it should not rebuff friendly gestures. Courageous and bold are better descriptors then aggressive. They need to be pushy enough to move a resistant animal without being aggressive to the point of injuring valuable livestock, aggressive enough to rebuff a threat without being so prey driven that they are able to be lured from their flock. It's all about balance and the best way to ensure working traits stay alive is to breed stock that can work. The whites have been largely removed from that environment, so the traits a working dog needs have largely disappeared.
In all colors breeding for pets risks losing valuable traits required for a working dog and it is those herding traits that make this breed so very useful at so many things. The kennels that focus on the production of "sport dogs" are running the same risks just in the opposite direction.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Just a few points for you to ponder. First and foremost, eight week old pups aren't herding sheep. At best they got some exposure.
> 
> As to temperament, the GSD should be a family dog but not to the same extent as a Goldie in that they typically like THEIR family and should be somewhat standoffish with strangers as well as aware of boundaries. While a well bred GSD likes kids they have a dim view of trespassing adults. Once the white was considered a DQ the white dogs typically went to pet homes where over time the temperament evolved into something more compatible to that role, since typically there was no work involved. And as with all things once the were "forbidden" a subsect of people wanted them even more.
> Interpretations of temperament abound on this forum, but there is no mention of aggression in the standard. The dog should be accepting of approach by a neutral stranger and while it should not make overtures to strangers it should not rebuff friendly gestures. Courageous and bold are better descriptors then aggressive. They need to be pushy enough to move a resistant animal without being aggressive to the point of injuring valuable livestock, aggressive enough to rebuff a threat without being so prey driven that they are able to be lured from their flock. It's all about balance and the best way to ensure working traits stay alive is to breed stock that can work. The whites have been largely removed from that environment, so the traits a working dog needs have largely disappeared.
> In all colors breeding for pets risks losing valuable traits required for a working dog and it is those herding traits that make this breed so very useful at so many things. The kennels that focus on the production of "sport dogs" are running the same risks just in the opposite direction.


Who do you know that’s breeding that type of balanced GSD?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The German Shepherd breed standard calls for a dog with the natural ability to protect and guard. They do that with aggression.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The character section of the breed standard can seem contradictory. I think the key phrase is “absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please.” The implication is from that, in my opinion, is the dog should be reliable and stable around people( and dogs.) He shouldn’t be nervy and attacking random strangers just for approaching for instance. He should have enough aggression however to meet and eliminate any threat. The balance they should have varies based on who you talk to. In my opinion, the dog should ideally bring higher levels of drive in all aspects( prey, defense, food etc.) It’s impossible for one dog to fill all the roles the breed occupies. The perfect shepherd however, can fill any of them based on the training and rearing he receives. The sub categories are showlines and working lines. A “pet” shepherd is one bred without a focus in any working or conformation traits, leading to dogs who are only fit to be companions. That is a far cry from what the breed was meant to be.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> The character section of the breed standard can seem contradictory. I think the key phrase is “absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please.” The implication is from that, in my opinion, is the dog should be reliable and stable around people( and dogs.) He shouldn’t be nervy and attacking random strangers just for approaching for instance. He should have enough aggression however to meet and eliminate any threat. The balance they should have varies based on who you talk to. In my opinion, the dog should ideally bring higher levels of drive in all aspects( prey, defense, food etc.) It’s impossible for one dog to fill all the roles the breed occupies. The perfect shepherd however, can fill any of them based on the training and rearing he receives. The sub categories are showlines and working lines. A “pet” shepherd is one bred without a focus in any working or conformation traits, leading to dogs who are only fit to be companions. That is a far cry from what the breed was meant to be.


This has come under discussion before and it has been said that much was lost in the translation.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Just wondering if commenters would mind posting "examples" when commenting... (if it's not too much to ask?) 
I am really trying to find a good GSD puppy.

For example, "this breeder believes in breeding these traits in a GSD", or "here is an example of a breeder who's dogs are known for having these traits", etc... That would be helpful.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Shepp said:


> Who do you know that’s breeding that type of balanced GSD?


Marsha, MNM on this forum, Carmen, carmspack on this forum. But those are only the tip of the iceberg, as there are many many breeders who do breed to the standard! I just mentioned these two because I really would love to get one of their well-bred puppies! 

The sad news is I'm too old to raise another puppy. So it'll never happen. But seriously check them out, you'll be VERY glad you did!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's hard to recommend breeders to you because what you are asking for isn't a working line. For instance, I tried to explain to you the "slope" and the standard that was developed by the founder of the breeder. 

And you proceeded to educate me on how the standard may have evolved but you've seen pics of the original shepherds and that the slope harms the hip/elbows. None of which is true. I'm surprised with all the conversations on this board, and you having been a member for 5 years, that you don't know that. So how are we supposed to give you input when you won't accept correct facts when they are given to you?

Angle - both well bred working line. 



















And in your description of temperament, what you are asking for is NOT a working line. Your question, as it's laid out, can not be answered. Sure, people on here who have never met dogs from breeders and only know their names on here can shout them out without actually knowing what they produce but I've met some of them and they are not your white GSD. They are great dogs but NOT what you are asking for. So your best bet is to find a training club or a trial where you can go watch the dogs and see if any fit what you need. And for the record, there are some really nice show lines with moderate builds out there that would fit for you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think you are seeing reluctance to post recommendations because you are looking for a dog based on how they look. This is a big red flag as the temperament of the dog determines how suitable it is for a given job or lifestyle.

The way you describe the temperament you are looking for doesn't instil confidence in your understanding of the breed and what it's like to train and live with a working line dog. Just take an hour and read through the puppy sub forums.

These dogs are bred to chase and bite stuff. Many people get a GSD because of their looks and because of positive exposure to well trained examples. They get the pup home and soon realize that, guess what, they really love to chase and bite stuff. The have boundless amounts of energy and they are masters at training people to get what they want, which is primarily to chase and bite stuff.

If you are set on a GSD, I strongly suggest you take next Saturday and visit a SCH training club. Go watch the dogs work and talk to owners. Get a feel for what it's like to live with their dogs. No amount of reading will give you information like meeting dogs and talking to people.

I have a thread going that outlines my life with Valor. He's 6 months old in 4 days. I suggest you read through that. It looks pretty peachy, and it is. I am very happy with him and I feel that he's the perfect pup for me. He comes from Carmspack and Fraserglen. Carmen has bred police dogs for 40 years. I have trained a couple hundred military dogs, so I'm expecting a certain temperament and energy level in a dog and I'm prepared to utilize those things in a beneficial manner. The prefect dog for me and the perfect dog for you may look very much alike at a barbecue, but they will be very different dogs to train and live with.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Carmspack puppy inbound!!!


Tentative name is Valor




www.germanshepherds.com


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

You need to go meet dogs.

Even those of us that have been friends for years have completely different ideal dogs. Some prefer (appropriately) social dogs, others prefer a more (appropriately) aloof dog. 

Words on the internet can’t paint a real picture of the GIANT diversity of temperaments that fall under the GSD breed umbrella. 

I have three dogs from two breeders but I don’t think any of them would be your ideal. Other people responding may be in the same boat. So.... I think you should go look at some well bred dogs and see what you’re drawn to. You may be surprised!


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> It's hard to recommend breeders to you because what you are asking for isn't a working line. For instance, I tried to explain to you the "slope" and the standard that was developed by the founder of the breeder.
> 
> And you proceeded to educate me on how the standard may have evolved but you've seen pics of the original shepherds and that the slope harms the hip/elbows. None of which is true. I'm surprised with all the conversations on this board, and you having been a member for 5 years, that you don't know that. So how are we supposed to give you input when you won't accept correct facts when they are given to you?
> 
> ...


I know to avoid hip problems. 

Do you feel that a White Shepherd is a GSD? 

I was on here 5 years ago looking for a puppy. I got about this far last time. There is a lot of great advice, and it has been helpful, but it is knowingly wading into philosophy to get it.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> These dogs are bred to chase and bite stuff. Many people get a GSD because of their looks and because of positive exposure to well trained examples. They get the pup home and soon realize that, guess what, they really love to chase and bite stuff. The have boundless amounts of energy and they are masters at training people to get what they want, which is primarily to chase and bite stuff.


This actually made me laugh. 
How many people say "I've never had a dog but always wanted a German Shepherd" ....

I think one day, I'm going to start a thread titled "Top 10 Reasons You Don't Want A GSD" 

Should be a sticky.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

I am committed to owing another GSD.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shepp said:


> I know to avoid hip problems.
> 
> Do you feel that a White Shepherd is a GSD?
> 
> I was on here 5 years ago looking for a puppy. I got about this far last time. There is a lot of great advice, and it has been helpful, but it is knowingly wading into philosophy to get it.


LOL See. What kind of response is that??? You purposely dismissed the point I made and spouted nonsense at me.

You "know to avoid hip problems"...except you think it's related to the angle of the back - it's NOT. HD is a multifaceted disease caused by genetics and environment. There is a reason we all xray our dogs prior to breeding. There is a reason we avoid high impact and there is a reason we are careful about feeding the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio. Because it's all relevant to bone growth. The angle of the back is NOT relevant to that matter. The angle of the back is in the breed standard and was determined by the breed found in 1890.

The thing to watch for in the back is TV and working lines have that as well. The SV doesnt' even know if that is genetic as it's congenital in people. 

and what kind of question is "do I feel that a White Shepherd is a GSD?" No, I think it's a mountain goat. What else would it be? Of course a white GSD is a GSD. The white is a MASKING gene. It's not genetically white. The gene masks the real genetic color. However, AGAIN, the temperament of a white GSD is not that of a working line. 

People are trying to help you here and you just simply do not want to hear facts because they don't fit your preconceived notions. We have better things to do than waste our time for anyone being purposely obtuse. Go to a club and watch the dogs. Go to IGP clubs where you will see WL's. Go to GSDCA clubs where you will see WGSL's. Go to AKC clubs where you will see ASL's. 

I'm out.....


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shepp said:


> I am committed to owing another GSD.


I will tell you to work with a reputable rescue and adopt a young adult. That gives you a much better look at temperament and avoids the puppy crazy. Alternatively you could reach out to a few reputable breeders and explain what you want.
Reading a description and living with it are two different things.
My soft as butter rescue would fail miserably in most homes. She lacks the essentials to please GSD enthusiasts and is far too hectic for most pet homes. But she is fine for me. My perfect dog is not yours. You need to stop looking at the irrelevant and spend time with well bred dogs, preferably young and in the bat crap crazy phase. Then decide if this is what you want.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> LOL See. What kind of response is that??? You purposely dismissed the point I made and spouted nonsense at me.
> 
> You "know to avoid hip problems"...except you think it's related to the angle of the back - it's NOT. HD is a multifaceted disease caused by genetics and environment. There is a reason we all xray our dogs prior to breeding. There is a reason we avoid high impact and there is a reason we are careful about feeding the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio. Because it's all relevant to bone growth. The angle of the back is NOT relevant to that matter. The angle of the back is in the breed standard and was determined by the breed found in 1890.
> 
> ...


It is refreshing to meet someone who understand that White is a masking gene, and not a diluting gene.

I did not mean to offend.
Allow me to clarify...I am looking for a dog that looks more "square", and lets just leave it at that. I am not a breeder.

I like the way the working dogs look, but I have had dogs in the past with high "prey drives", such as an Australian Shepherd and a Husky, and do not wish to wander down that road again. I have always owned dogs and GSD is by far the dog that best fits my personality. (BTW - Golden's annoy me). I am not planning on taking my dog running for three miles everyday, and my current dog seems fine with that (even though she would just as happily go for an hour long walk).

In my initial post I mentioned I was looking for a working dog look with show dog personality. I understand now why many here feel is a contradiction. The working dogs have high energy because that is what they were bred for. I guess what I am looking for is a working dog that has is eager to please, so I can channel that energy into suitable outlets, like being a good watchdog. (?) I am afraid of spending thousands on a vet bill on an older dog, but I know I would do it if I had to...

I am cautious on my next puppy, because there are a lot of bad GSD's out there (health problems, unstable temperaments), and it is difficult to know where to begin. I agree going to shows and meeting dogs is an ideal solution (sans pandemic), but I wouldn't mind visiting nearby breeders either.

When I get a puppy I will likely be on this forum more often.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

June 5-6, 2021 
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Dakota County Fairgrounds
4008 220 Street West
Farmington, MN 

September 11-12, 2021
*O.G. INSELSTADT SCHUTZHUND CLUB*
9/11/21 - 9/12/21
Phillips, WI 

September 11-12, 2021 
GSDC-WI Specialty
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Big Bend, WI 

October 9-10, 2021
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Event Number: NC2116518
10/9/21 - 10/10/21
Minneapolis, MN


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Shepp said:


> I know to avoid hip problems.


my non-sloped gsd...








my non sloped gsd’s hips....


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

please, would you mind explaining what I am looking at.
Is the bone sitting securely in the cup, or is there mild dysplasia. Not trained in looking at such pics.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The German Shepherd breed standard calls for a dog with the natural ability to protect and guard. They do that with aggression.


I have noticed some people don’t understand the term “aggression“ as it applies to our breed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Shepp said:


> It is refreshing to meet someone who understand that White is a masking gene, and not a diluting gene.
> 
> I did not mean to offend.
> Allow me to clarify...I am looking for a dog that looks more "square", and lets just leave it at that. I am not a breeder.
> ...


Working Line German Shepherds are extremely different from Aussies and Huskies. It sound like you want an ASL that does not have an extreme slope. They have straighter backs and the temperament you want, but like all GSDs must be well bred. You would not care for the more curved look of a WGSL. You might be able to find a WL with medium drive and a solid temperament. What you are describing, though, is a pet line. Unfortunately people who breed them don’t call them that, so it's difficult to find them. They also tend to be BYBs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Shepp said:


> please, would you mind explaining what I am looking at.
> Is the bone sitting securely in the cup, or is there mild dysplasia. Not trained in looking at such pics.


severe hip dysplasia...both hips.
diagnosed at 3. the bone spurs and remodeling were already present meaning she was no longer a candidate for hip replacement.
non symptomatic (the vet couldn’t believe it) til 8, when arthritis set in.
what you’re looking at is bone on bone in the hip socket. the “ball” should be smooth, not rigid, not resembling cauliflower... the bone has worn down creating a “neck” where there shouldn’t be one...shouldn’t look like a fan.

here is an image (google) of healthy hips for comparison.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Working Line German Shepherds are extremely different from Aussies and Huskies. It sound like you want an ASL that does not have an extreme slope. They have straighter backs and the temperament you want, but like all GSDs must be well bred. You would not care for the more curved look of a WGSL. You might be able to find a WL with medium drive and a solid temperament. What you are describing, though, is a pet line. Unfortunately people who breed them don’t call them that, so it's difficult to find them. They also tend to be BYBs.


Yes, understood. ASL (generally speaking) would probably be a good fit for us.
I also think a WL with medium drive might also be a good fit. I am not opposed to channeling a medium drive dog with a solid temperament, but I don't want a dog that will end up climbing on the walls or destroying the home (excessive barking), because it doesn't get enough exercise.

I don't know how typical a White Shepherd is to the breed, but her slightly lower drive made her very easy to train. However, she is not a lazy dog by any means. She seems happy doing nothing, or can be very energetic at a moments notice. She made me not want to get any other type of dog ever again, but would like to try a more traditional colored GSD next.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Shepp said:


> Yes, understood. ASL (generally speaking) would probably be a good fit for us.
> I also think a WL with medium drive might also be a good fit. I am not opposed to channeling a medium drive dog with a solid temperament, but I don't want a dog that will end up climbing on the walls or destroying the home (excessive barking), because it doesn't get enough exercise.
> 
> I don't know how typical a White Shepherd is to the breed, but her slightly lower drive made her very easy to train. However, she is not a lazy dog by any means. She seems happy doing nothing, or can be very energetic at a moments notice. She made me not want to get any other type of dog ever again, but would like to try a more traditional colored GSD next.


Any dog without proper exercise is going to destroy your home. I also do not believe that low drive makes a dog easier to train. In m experience, low drive makes a dog much harder to train because they are harder to motivate. Low drive doesn't give you more options to train, it gives you less. I also believe you are confusing drive and energy levels. The things you ask for can be found in any line, but are less likely to be found in good working lines.


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## Shepp (Jan 25, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> Any dog without proper exercise is going to destroy your home. I also do not believe that low drive makes a dog easier to train. In m experience, low drive makes a dog much harder to train because they are harder to motivate. Low drive doesn't give you more options to train, it gives you less. I also believe you are confusing drive and energy levels. The things you ask for can be found in any line, but are less likely to be found in good working lines.


When I think of prey drive, I think of the Husky I had, that tried to kill our cat at every opportunity (even as a puppy), or ran after every squirrel in the yard. It was an obstinate and difficult dog to train, as it was very driven, but not eager to please. Am I misinformed about what prey drive is?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You are misinformed if you think being hard to train and obstinate is prey related.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There is true, predatory prey drive: stalk/chase/kill other animals.

There is also object/toy/ball prey drive. Highly driven to chase and strike and possess fast moving objects. Rags, tugs, etc. 

GSDs can be high in one, or both, or neither, of these tendencies.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Shepp said:


> When I think of prey drive, I think of the Husky I had, that tried to kill our cat at every opportunity, or ran after every squirrel in the yard. It was an obstinate and difficult dog to train, as it was very driven, but not eager to please. Am I misinformed about what prey drive is?


To keep this simple, I won't talk about other breeds, since there is way more to the differences than prey drive. When people talk prey drive in shepherds, The are talking about the desire to chase grab and kill. That does manifest in chasing other animals. It also manifests in chasing balls and playing tug. That gives you more tools to train a dog, because you have more ways to motivate the dog and different methods become available. There are other drives like food drive, which when higher, makes a dog easier to train. There is also what some people call pack drive, which also makes a dog easier to train. The simple answer is lower drive=harder to motivate.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> To keep this simple, I won't talk about other breeds, since there is way more to the differences than prey drive. When people talk prey drive in shepherds, The are talking about the desire to chase grab and kill. That does manifest in chasing other animals. It also manifests in chasing balls and playing tug. That gives you more tools to train a dog, because you have more ways to motivate the dog and different methods become available. There are other drives like food drive, which when higher, makes a dog easier to train. There is also what some people call pack drive, which also makes a dog easier to train. The simple answer is lower drive=harder to motivate.


Well said: "Lower drive = harder to motivate".

It does not necessarily equate to harder to train.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here you go. Not even the working line people dissed ASL, Rumor. If you look at her structure to my two dogs I posted, it's not that different. I see a very nice, moderate, WGSL on their page for females as well.

And they are in your area.









Kenlyn German Shepherds


Kenlyn and Marquis' have been involved with breeding, owning and professionally handling some of the top German Shepherds for over 25 years.




www.kenlynshepherds.com


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## BehaviourNerdom (Oct 29, 2020)

Kinda off topic but there’s a saying in the dog world that I love:

“A Mal is both the easiest and the hardest dog. A Golden is both the easiest and the hardest dog.”

We know this from the famous video of the obedience competition fail featuring both these breeds. Both high drive, but different. I have unfortunately had to search for for a few bodies of Goldens that have fallen off waterfalls because of drive; with my drivey SAR Golden.

The difference is the worst case scenario: bad training and/or neglect to socialize. A Golden may bite your fingers snatching your sandwich, a Mal is a potential public danger.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Honestly, the best conversation you will have concerning this is with actual breeders. That doesn't imply responses here aren't valid. A longer conversation might be warranted to help you zero in on the right pup. A couple of legit breeders I've spoken with this year have been very helpful and happy to assist. The good ones will want you to end up with a good match for your home, and not just talk you into buying one of their dogs.


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