# Invisible Fence Owners: Few Questions



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Hi, I had the fence installed on Saturday. This is my second time around with it on a different home and a new pup. I spent the last four days doing the training. On lead, prongs covered, beep and turn back. I hit most of the flags. I’m comfortable I did this adequately. He was turning back on his own just from the beep. 

So tonight was correction night on lead. As I said, he had already begun to avoid the beeps. On lead he got zapped and I pulled him back. I did this once more. 

Took him off leash and he went to a correction zone and ended up outside of it. I know this is the downside. He kind of got caught in the shock zone and freaked a bit and went the other way. 

I took the collar off and brought him back. He seemed to get it from here. Beep and turn back over and over off lead. Cautious of the flags. 

I can’t remember if my other dogs initially ended up on the others side the first time corrected. 

Any of this sound familiar? He is 17 weeks old. 

(With all due respect, I don’t want to turn this into a debate or lecture on invisible fences, please. It’s worked for me in the past). 


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@David Winners has some experience with invisible fencing.PM him if he doesn't see your thread.
My thought is he just needs more practice until he's habituated on the correct way to turn.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I've trained two dogs on my invisible fence, neither puppies. It was a few years ago now, but I remember doing the process more slowly than you have mentioned. I was possibly too cautious but they never cross the boundary now so my caution worked. I did each phase for at least a week, two to three sessions a day. I set my boundary to maximum for the first year but now that they are very proofed to the fence, I have adjusted to make it much more narrow. I'll try to go through what I did to the best I can remember:

week 1: On leash beep, turn away, reward. By halfway through the week, they consistently turned away without any indication from me. I still continued the beep training, making it fun and not too serious. It was just a walk in the yard with some weird beeping. I did the whole property every time and let them test the fence when they chose. If they beeped, I would walk them away and jiggle the flag so they could see the visual marker. I also installed a flag about every five feet so a flag was always close. By the end of the week, my shepherd mix avoided the line but my stubborn boxer/pit could be tempted over by the slightest thing.

week 2: On leash with lowest shock, turn away, reward. If shocked then they were done with fence training for the session but we would stay outside and play to not build fear to the shock. This was also the phase that I adjusted the shock until they responded. My stubborn dog took it quite high until she reacted with correct enthusiasm. To me, too many shocks in consecutive sessions meant that they might need to go back to beep training again. I wouldn't move to the next phase until they are very consistent with avoiding the fence. The end goal for this section of training was to never have them shocked because they know what the beep means. (My collars beeps/vibrate first, then shock)

week 3: walking the parameter with the dog, no leash. If they get shocked then back on the leash and go back to week 2.

week 4: testing. Me on one side and husband/sister on the other. Then switch. Then me walking with them, telling them to stay and crossing the fence with them staying behind. Me coming home with them in fence, husband keeping them from getting shocked if they get too excited. Waiting and waiting for something to appear on the other side (walking dog, deer) and seeing that they were prey proof for the fence. You get it, lots of testing. Any mistake, they would go back a week and proof further.

My shepherd mix got stuck in the shock once, staring up at me and waiting for her treat. "Is this what you want, Mom?" Poor biddable girl. I went back a week in training after that and made the turn away more dramatic. I didn't get to this point but if a dog ever did get through the whole barrier during training, I would not make a big deal of it. Deftly remove the collar, and try to carry them back into the yard. Training is done for the session. I'm pretty sure neither of my dogs know the shock ends. That's a pretty important piece of knowledge to keep from them. You carrying them over, negates the shock because we have super powers 

Hope this helps.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

First, you're moving way, way too fast. Particularly with a dog that young. I advise against using any e-collar on dogs under 6 months. Yes, you can make it work sometimes, but there can be fallout if you don't know what you're doing. I would also never rely on the stim setting on an e-collar to introduce stim to the dog. I want to have very fine control over stim levels until the dog understands what stim means and how to shut it off.

He shouldn't be on to stim yet. Just vibration until he's doing the right thing 99% with distractions at all times of day. Most training programs take at least a couple weeks unless the dog is already e-collar trained.

Take a few steps back and give him the opportunity to really learn the right behavior and to generalize it throughout the yard. Then move to some distractions, increasing them as he is successful. Everything on leash. 

Lots of rewards for good decisions. Lots of direction if needed. Don't let him fail until you know he 1000% understands the game. Then let him get stim and be sure to show him how to shut it off.

If you take him off leash, you risk a couple things. One, he will learn to blow through the fence while in drive and then won't come back across when he's just trying to get home. Two, if he gets confused, he may associate the wrong thing with the stim. He may become scared of that part of the yard or basketballs or the tree. He may just not want to go into the yard at all, and he still doesn't understand how to turn the stim off. Third, he may just get used to it if it happens enough and he will go through it whenever he feels like the juice is worth the squeeze.

I've seen all of these things happen with dogs and have had to attempt to fix the lack of training that leads to these behaviors.

If you want detailed instructions on how I train the e-fence, I'll type them out for ya.

I'll also look back and find my Dogtra e-fence thread where I talked about training the behaviors with an schooler and then moving to the e-fence collar after the dog was proofed.

In that thread, I moved very quickly, but my dogs are already very e-collar literate and they understand how stim works in my training program. They are also 3 and 7 years old.

What brand and model of fence are you using?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/equipment-how-use-where-find/757421-dogtra-e-fence-3500-a.html


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> I've trained two dogs on my invisible fence, neither puppies. It was a few years ago now, but I remember doing the process more slowly than you have mentioned. I was possibly too cautious but they never cross the boundary now so my caution worked. I did each phase for at least a week, two to three sessions a day. I set my boundary to maximum for the first year but now that they are very proofed to the fence, I have adjusted to make it much more narrow. I'll try to go through what I did to the best I can remember:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This helps tremendously! Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. I followed the Canine Fence companies training instructions. I’ve also watched some YouTube videos of the Pet Safe brand and some of those tactics are consistent with some of the things you have done. The Canine Fence training is definitely more aggressive and there is no treating or rewards. They also specifically discourage baiting on the other side to get the dog to come over. 

Tomorrow will be telling. I do think after reading all of your due diligence I could have done a few things differently and maybe taken a few more days before correction. 


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Glad to hear it helps.

I do want to clarify that I never baited the dog over the line (or called the dog to cross). My poor shepherd mix would take the shock to 'behave'. I did reenact the idea that I am coming home from the other side of the fence and they shouldn't cross. First time with leash in case they lost their mind. I also always train with rewards or else, where's the fun?

Good luck!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Electronic fences are not recommended for breeds with a genetic predisposition for aggression. 

What is your plan for keeping other dogs from coming on to your property and harming your dog?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Electronic fences are not recommended for breeds with a genetic predisposition for aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> What is your plan for keeping other dogs from coming on to your property and harming your dog?




That’s doesn’t happen where I live. My GSD is showline and probably a completely different temperament than your working line. Thanks for the input. 


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Glad to hear it helps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Understood. It sounded like you were creating distractions outside the line to tempt them. Which could be a alternative training method, I wasn’t judging. 

Canine Fence Company pretty much has them loose in the yard in a week from install. I do think I could have taken more time to train which would have made yesterday a little less confusing. From my experience though, that first shock really gets their attention to the beeps and flags. 

I’ll keep you posted. 


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> First, you're moving way, way too fast. Particularly with a dog that young. I advise against using any e-collar on dogs under 6 months. Yes, you can make it work sometimes, but there can be fallout if you don't know what you're doing. I would also never rely on the stim setting on an e-collar to introduce stim to the dog. I want to have very fine control over stim levels until the dog understands what stim means and how to shut it off.
> 
> He shouldn't be on to stim yet. Just vibration until he's doing the right thing 99% with distractions at all times of day. Most training programs take at least a couple weeks unless the dog is already e-collar trained.
> 
> ...




Thanks David, I really appreciate you taking the time to put this together for me. I think I understand your method and the steps you take. The brand is Canine Company. It’s pretty much the number 1 fence here. The transmitter doesn’t not allow for adjustments you described or at least they dumb it down. No controls. They want you to call them to come out to increase or decrease correction levels. No vibrate on the system either. I thought about doing it myself with another brand but I have way too many pavement cuts. 

I’ll read through your link today and circle back with questions. 

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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/equipment-how-use-where-find/757421-dogtra-e-fence-3500-a.html




That looks like a much superior system than the Canine Company brand fence I have. 

https://www.caninecompany.com/[/url...y subscription on you.
Thanks for this.
]


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Frisco19 said:


> That’s doesn’t happen where I live. My GSD is showline and probably a completely different temperament than your working line. Thanks for the input.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Dogs never get loose where you live? It's a HUGE problem where I live. 

I have a showline too. He probably is the most territorial of all my dogs and I would not be surprised if he actively protected his home.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dogs never get loose where you live? It's a HUGE problem where I live.
> 
> I have a showline too. He probably is the most territorial of all my dogs and I would not be surprised if he actively protected his home.


Like I said in parenthesis at the bottom of my initial post, this thread is not to debate or seek input on the appropriateness of invisible fences for GSD's or any other dog for the matter. I was seeking input from people that have them. I'm not going to engage on it.

Not sure where you live. I live in a suburb 12 miles from Boston. Dogs *never *get loose, *never*. The doggy demographics of my area are doodles, noodles, goldens and labs. Having a loose dog run through my property or by it is the least of my concerns, it just does not happen. Leash laws are very well observed in these here parts.

I know my dog very well and am confident in what kind of adult he will be. I'm pretty sure the fence will be fine for him for my purposes. I simply want to let him out a few minutes before me. Not leave him out all day when no one is home. I debated even needing a fence given my experience with GSD's and their loyalty to their property. That said, my experience also tells me that you stop getting deliveries from UPS, FedEx, etc. when a GSD is sitting on the front steps. So containing him in the backyard is ideal. If it doesn't work for me, so be it, I'm down a grand. 

BTW, All GSD's are territorial and protective of their home. I hope he is too, not sure what relevance this has at all to the invisible fence.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Frisco19 said:


> Like I said in parenthesis at the bottom of my initial post, this thread is not to debate or seek input on the appropriateness of invisible fences for GSD's or any other dog for the matter. I was seeking input from people that have them. I'm not going to engage on it.
> 
> Not sure where you live. I live in a suburb 12 miles from Boston. Dogs *never *get loose, *never*. The doggy demographics of my area are doodles, noodles, goldens and labs. Having a loose dog run through my property or by it is the least of my concerns, it just does not happen. Leash laws are very well observed in these here parts.
> 
> ...


BTW, my workinglines aren't very territorial if at all. It seems to be a trait fading fast in this breed which is why my showline being territorial came as quite a surprise. Not to argue, but being territorial or protective of homes are reasons why you shouldn't use an electric fence for dogs with those predispositions, not sure what the confusion is about.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Not knocking e-fences at all, I have no experience with them so I can’t form an opinion on them. But just out of sheer curiosity, why did you not just train a boundary? Seiran is 100% proofed in the front yard, and we just got Floki to do the same. I don’t trust my adults to have 100% recall, so we put them on leads out front. One cat and they are gone. But Seiran and Floki will just watch until the person, child, cat, or dogs walk by. Then again, I do stay home, so they are rarely alone. 

Just an FYI, some postal people are morons regardless. I was out back brushing Crios out, and heard Lyka flipping her shhh at the front door. This was the “mom, there’s a stranger in the house” kind of mad barking. We have had cool weather this week because of monsoon season, so I had both front doors open (they open like French doors, separately or together), windows and back door open. We have double security screens on both front and back doors. So I rush inside as fast as I can, and see a package INSIDE my house. He opened my security screen and brought the package inside. It wasn’t even delivered to the right address, it was someone else’s package. He came back to switch packages, and I lit into him for opening my door. I’ve never had someone deliver a package and leave it INSIDE someone’s home. He said I should put in the instructions that I have large dogs on the shipping label. Yeah, cause you read the address so well that you had to come back and swap out packages. We do have a gate separating the entryway from the rest of the house to prevent Crios from bolting at every opportunity, but you can’t see through our security screens, so dude had no idea whether it was safe or not to enter my home. I did phone in a complaint, and was told that this is not common practice. You just never know what kind of weirdo may walk through your yard, e-fence doesn’t stop them, so make sure you have backup safety precautions in place. I’m sure you already know this though.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> BTW, being territorial or protective of homes are reasons why you shouldn't use an electric fence for dogs with those predispositions


Against my better judgement and derailing a thread I had purposely put a disclaimer on not contributing what you contributed, please enlighten me on the above statement? Give me an example because the only one I have in my head doesn't hold water.

And finally, for the last time, the fence isn't for everyone or every dog. It's been good for me with my last GSD and GD and I'm trying it again. My choice, my dog, my money. I know my dog, I know how I will use it and I will know when to cut bait. Frisco ain't going anywhere, fence or no fence. Sometimes I feel like some people on this forum have some crazy a$$ uncontrollable GSD's. Guess I have been lucky enough or have done the proper due diligence and training to get the dog that was right for me (and an electric fence).


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> Not knocking e-fences at all, I have no experience with them so I can’t form an opinion on them. But just out of sheer curiosity, why did you not just train a boundary? Seiran is 100% proofed in the front yard, and we just got Floki to do the same. I don’t trust my adults to have 100% recall, so we put them on leads out front. One cat and they are gone. But Seiran and Floki will just watch until the person, child, cat, or dogs walk by. Then again, I do stay home, so they are rarely alone.
> 
> Just an FYI, some postal people are morons regardless. I was out back brushing Crios out, and heard Lyka flipping her shhh at the front door. This was the “mom, there’s a stranger in the house” kind of mad barking. We have had cool weather this week because of monsoon season, so I had both front doors open (they open like French doors, separately or together), windows and back door open. We have double security screens on both front and back doors. So I rush inside as fast as I can, and see a package INSIDE my house. He opened my security screen and brought the package inside. It wasn’t even delivered to the right address, it was someone else’s package. He came back to switch packages, and I lit into him for opening my door. I’ve never had someone deliver a package and leave it INSIDE someone’s home. He said I should put in the instructions that I have large dogs on the shipping label. Yeah, cause you read the address so well that you had to come back and swap out packages. We do have a gate separating the entryway from the rest of the house to prevent Crios from bolting at every opportunity, but you can’t see through our security screens, so dude had no idea whether it was safe or not to enter my home. I did phone in a complaint, and was told that this is not common practice. You just never know what kind of weirdo may walk through your yard, e-fence doesn’t stop them, so make sure you have backup safety precautions in place. I’m sure you already know this though.


Jchrest, maybe for another thread on another day, I'm exhausted with this getting off topic. If it doesn't work and he chases a rabbit out of the yard, I'll be the first to tell my folklore story.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The only thing I use an electric fence for is to mind the dogs a bit when they are outside with us, so we don't have to monitor them all the time. I would never leave a dog unattended outside with just an e-fence.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

A dog thats truly territorial and has the nerve to do something with it, can either blow right through any electric fence, or in some cases wait till the target of whats bugging them comes in. Your presence there is a direct challenge to them and they're going to get rid of you. Most of what you're probably comparing to it is probably more along the lines of excitement, unsure, maybe some suspicion thrown in. Maybe prey drive with some things. I think its one of those things where you see people shocked their dog didn't bite the burglar.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Frisco19 said:


> Against my better judgement and derailing a thread I had purposely put a disclaimer on not contributing what you contributed, please enlighten me on the above statement? Give me an example because the only one I have in my head doesn't hold water.
> 
> And finally, for the last time, the fence isn't for everyone or every dog. It's been good for me with my last GSD and GD and I'm trying it again. My choice, my dog, my money. I know my dog, I know how I will use it and I will know when to cut bait. Frisco ain't going anywhere, fence or no fence. Sometimes I feel like some people on this forum have some crazy a$$ uncontrollable GSD's. Guess I have been lucky enough or have done the proper due diligence and training to get the dog that was right for me (and an electric fence).


No need to get all up tight. You asked, I answered. That's all.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No need to get all up tight. You asked, I answered. That's all.




Actually I really didn’t ask for feedback on whether electric fences were recommended for dogs with a predisposition for aggression. I asked for input from electric fence owners to weigh in on my first correction. Let’s drop this though. 


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> The only thing I use an electric fence for is to mind the dogs a bit when they are outside with us, so we don't have to monitor them all the time. I would never leave a dog unattended outside with just an e-fence.




Exactly!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Frisco19 said:


> Actually I really didn’t ask for feedback on whether electric fences were recommended for dogs with a predisposition for aggression. I asked for input from electric fence owners to weigh in on my first correction. Let’s drop this though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


No problem, just thought you or someone else reading this might have been interested in manufacturer's recommendations.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

You've been amazingly positive Frisco. Keep it up ?

I also do not leave my dogs out in the fence unattended, physical or invisible fence. My stubborn dog is an escape artist and she's hard to trust. And yes, some people and dogs are wackos.

I don't want to start an argument but I will say that judgements, especially when the OP explicitly asked to not have that specific discussion...those type of threads may make people nervous to ask for advice they may need. Reading those types of threads definitely make me overly cautious. (I'm sure you mean well MineAreWorkingLine, I've respected a lot of what you've posted in the past)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CeraDean said:


> You've been amazingly positive Frisco. Keep it up ?
> 
> I also do not leave my dogs out in the fence unattended, physical or invisible fence. My stubborn dog is an escape artist and she's hard to trust. And yes, some people and dogs are wackos.
> 
> I don't want to start an argument but I will say that judgements, especially when the OP explicitly asked to not have that specific discussion...those type of threads may make people nervous to ask for advice they may need. Reading those types of threads definitely make me overly cautious. (I'm sure you mean well MineAreWorkingLine, I've respected a lot of what you've posted in the past)


Stating manufacturer's recommendations are not an opinion or judgment on my part. I stated no opinion, I made no judgement, I ask you do the same in return. The only thing I asked is what provisions the OP made in case of loose dogs. Asking a question is not making a judgment or stating an opinion, nor are any of the above a lecture or a debate.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Electronic fences are not recommended for breeds with a genetic predisposition for aggression.


OK. One more time. I won't hijack again. You're just fun to argue with MineAreWorkingLine. :wink2:

Can you please share the link to a manufacturer's recommendation that their e-fence not be used with "breeds with a genetic predisposition for aggression." My fence's manual says not to be used with "aggressive dogs". I believe there is a big difference.

Link to my fence, Petsafe Stubborn dog, page 2: https://www.petsafe.net/media/manuals/pig00-10777-stubborn-dog-in-ground-fence-manual.pdf


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CeraDean said:


> OK. One more time. I won't hijack again. You're just fun to argue with MineAreWorkingLine. :wink2:
> 
> Can you please share the link to a manufacturer's recommendation that their e-fence not be used with "breeds with a genetic predisposition for aggression." My fence's manual says not to be used with "aggressive dogs". I believe there is a big difference.
> 
> Link to my fence, Petsafe Stubborn dog, page 2: https://www.petsafe.net/media/manuals/pig00-10777-stubborn-dog-in-ground-fence-manual.pdf


You believe there is a big difference, I don't. If you don't want to keep hijacking this thread, then don't.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Ok so back on topic because I need some help. 

Day two not so great. Definitely was timid to go in the backyard and then he got a correction and not he’s afraid of the backyard. Just won’t leave the deck with a pull or some treats. At least I get him to go with treats. 

I definitely didn’t train enough I think or maybe this is just unavoidable? He doesn’t understand the boundary lines I’m guessing and the white flags. He does understand the beep warning which makes him head back in the house. 

Cover the prongs and start over?


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

After the first correction with my boxer/pit, I did get some avoidance. She wanted to stay on the deck but once I was down in the grass, she followed. Then she did still stay in the cleared area of the yard rather than go to the untamed edges and near the flags. We didn't start the fence training again right away. We worked on reminding her that the yard is awesome and a fun place, not some weird field of energy that shocks you right after the beep comes. We went back to the beep until she was comfortable walking with the edges again. It's a big step that your boy knows what the beep means now. 

I'm not sure exactly what you are doing to make the fence training worth while to your puppy. You mentioned no reward earlier and I guess that is a way but it might also explain his hesitance. We did hot dogs, praise and play, also alone time with me which they usually have to share. So each of the dogs was pretty motivated to go do the fence training.

As far as recognizing the flags, I don't think my boxer/pit ever got the flags. My shepherd mix knows exactly where the line is but even then, I'm not convinced it is the flags. I think it was walking that line, over and over and over. So I'm no expert but I think the flags are for me more than them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Frisco19 said:


> Ok so back on topic because I need some help.
> 
> Day two not so great. Definitely was timid to go in the backyard and then he got a correction and not he’s afraid of the backyard. Just won’t leave the deck with a pull or some treats. At least I get him to go with treats.
> 
> ...


17 weeks old. He's too young to understand why he's getting zapped. Put it away completely till he's older and I'd intro electric to him with a regular e collar with known obedience first. Probably around 15mos.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> After the first correction with my boxer/pit, I did get some avoidance. She wanted to stay on the deck but once I was down in the grass, she followed. Then she did still stay in the cleared area of the yard rather than go to the untamed edges and near the flags. We didn't start the fence training again right away. We worked on reminding her that the yard is awesome and a fun place, not some weird field of energy that shocks you right after the beep comes. We went back to the beep until she was comfortable walking with the edges again. It's a big step that your boy knows what the beep means now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you this is helpful. A bit of an update. I took him out again this morning after the fear episode glued to the deck, which broke my heart and made me feel responsible. I had a different plan based on some of the feedback here. 

I filled my pocket with high value treats. I took him out of the crate and put him on leash. We went outside to the deck. I was curious if the leash made him feel safe. It may have. We got to the steps to the grass and he hesitated. I showed him a treat and he walked down the steps. Treat and lots of praise. We then on leash walked the perimeter of the fence. Treating every few steps and praising. We got to a few places where he got shocked yesterday and he stopped way short of them. I then started to put the treats on the ground on the edge of the beep zone and he walked picked, picked up, waited for another. I put more down along the path I wanted him to take and he cooperated. 

I did this several more times on leash along the entire perimeter and he was definitely more comfortable. At one point he got close enough for it to beep and he didn’t freak or go to the deck. He gently back up and looked at me for another treat. High praise constantly. 

After a few trips on leash I took him off. I did the walk command where he walks on my right knee and looks up as we walk. I walked the perimeter and tested and praised. After a few times, I went to the middle of the yard and did our normal morning training m, heel, through ( goes through me legs, sits and looks), sit, etc. I wanted him to feel comfortable. He was. A few more walks and treats and an occasional beep with the right response followed. 

Made me feel a little better. Him being afraid of the backyard broke my heart and made me feel responsible. 

So, even though the fence company training videos don’t include rewards, I’m going to use them every time out for a while. 

Does what I did make sense?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> 17 weeks old. He's too young to understand why he's getting zapped. Put it away completely till he's older and I'd intro electric to him with a regular e collar with known obedience first. Probably around 15mos.




I thought this too Steve. Both my other dogs were trained on it pretty quickly and easily at 16 weeks on the dot. I had a much bigger yard though with a huge safe area. 

I’m going to keep at what I posted above in my update and monitor it. 


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I think what you're doing sounds fun and engaging. He sounds like he's doing better too. I would stick to that for a bit and get a really good foundation for the beep.

My shepherd mix hasn't been shocked in years, the beep is enough. She totally respects it. She's on the lowest shock on her collar and we’ve even contemplated whether she needs the shock at all. But each dog is different, my other dog still tests the fences like a Raptor. I think you're doing good with adjusting.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

To do this training right takes weeks, fairness, and the ability to read the dog. You won't get real understanding and generalization of the training in a few days.

I recommend you put the collar up and get someone to walk you through the appropriate steps involved in fair training with an e-collar instead of your non adjustable fence collar after the dog is more mature.

You are on your way to some major problems if you rush this dog. Your training so far has been unfair. I know it's hard to hear that. I also know it was unintentional.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> To do this training right takes weeks, fairness, and the ability to read the dog. You won't get real understanding and generalization of the training in a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks, spoke to the fence company and have a plan. I’ll keep you posted. 


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Pretty much the plan is, cover the prongs back up and go back to training without correction. Praise and treat, but also just play normally as we would in the middle of the yard. The rep I spoke to said staying on the deck right after his first correction was not abnormal, there is a name for it but I can't recall it. I think the key words you used David for me is "the ability to read your dog" which I am very comfortable I have. I got a good recovery this morning with the approach I took. This will take some training. With all due respect, 15 months old just sounds way too long to re-introduce and start training again. In terms of rushing him and being unfair, that's kind of subjective without you knowing my dog, my ability to read my dog and my training and techniques. I'm not questioning your good intent and sentiment. I'm not going to rush him and I honestly don't think I will have major problems.

I appreciate all the input. I like posting questions and gathering different views and recommendations to just about every topic. My experience with dog owner extreme enthusiasts (myself included) is that people give their opinions with conviction and historical application from their experiences. In other words, "everyone thinks they are an expert". I definitely come across as one all the time and have to catch myself. You gotta do this, don't do that, this is what's wrong, etc. I run into dog fanatics on my walks all the time and they start telling you what you should and should not do. It comes from a sense of pride and it's all good. I just take it all in with a grain of salt and in the end, I rely on my instincts and my experience with GSD's and mostly, my assessment of my dog and what he is capable of and not capable of. I put the good will intentions of the "know it alls" into perspective and use all information to help make decisions or assessments. There are SO many perspectives on the same things out there and on these boards.

I will update this thread regularly for future use and reference.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Ummm... OK. Thanks for that. I'll remember to temper my advice from now on. 

Just wondering though. How many dogs does one need to successfully train with an e-collar to be able to speak with authority on the subject? I want to mark it in my journal for future reference.

Good luck.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Ummm... OK. Thanks for that. I'll remember to temper my advice from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I appreciate your advice and your expertise with your experiences. An e collar and training with an e collar is not the thing as an electric fence collar and training. If it’s important to you to viewed as an expert or a self proclaimed expert so be it. This is what I’m taking about. I gather all information and then make an informed decision. 


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

You say you like posting and hearing everyone’s advice, but you actually shut them down if their suggestions don’t fall into line with what you think is proper. In literally the majority of the threads and comments you make. There is a word for it. It’s called an Asks for advice but never takes it or learns from it, and only accepts advice if it suits them. 

I don’t think anyone with a pup of this age can tell what they will be like as an adult. A general overview maybe. But a pup can turn into a completely different dog as it matures. 

I agree, none-stim in any form that young. Plus I’ve never needed it to train on boundary work. It may get to that point when they get to adolescences, but they both have 100% boundary work down at this point in time, and that was just verbal cues and corrections. Take less time than training for an e-fence as well. I’ve left one, then both in the front yard “alone,” and each time, they would just walk to the front door and patiently wait for me to come back out. I say “alone” because they were full on supervised from our windows.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> You say you like posting and hearing everyone’s advice, but you actually shut them down if their suggestions don’t fall into line with what you think is proper. In literally the majority of the threads and comments you make. There is a word for it. It’s called an Asks for advice but never takes it or learns from it, and only accepts advice if it suits them.
> 
> I don’t think anyone with a pup of this age can tell what they will be like as an adult. A general overview maybe. But a pup can turn into a completely different dog as it matures.
> 
> I agree, none-stim in any form that young. Plus I’ve never needed it to train on boundary work. It may get to that point when they get to adolescences, but they both have 100% boundary work down at this point in time, and that was just verbal cues and corrections. Take less time than training for an e-fence as well. I’ve left one, then both in the front yard “alone,” and each time, they would just walk to the front door and patiently wait for me to come back out. I say “alone” because they were full on supervised from our windows.




Sorry you feel that way about my contributions. Noted. You can confidently project what a pup is going to be like if you know where he came from and the parents. 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Frisco19 said:


> I appreciate your advice and your expertise with your experiences. An e collar and training with an e collar is not the thing as an electric fence collar and training. If it’s important to you to viewed as an expert or a self proclaimed expert so be it. This is what I’m taking about. I gather all information and then make an informed decision.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Its the sensation of electric itself that dogs have no concept of, whether its an e collar or a containment system. The collar zaps with both. Its not the specifics of what your training for. That's why you go through a whole intro with either, I just think there's a lot more benefit to waiting and teaching what the e is by taking advantage of obedience they already know. Environmental corrections, like the barriers have a lot more chances of creating unwanted superstitions in a dog, especially a young puppy.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Its the sensation of electric itself that dogs have no concept of


Steve Storm and/or David Winners, would you approve of 'beep/vibrate' feedback only at a younger age than 6 months to aid in teaching the barrier of the fence that the dog will be contained with in the future?

Hopefully this makes sense, but I am imagining training with only beep and turn away until the dog matures? Or do you think that would still cause possible suspicion problems / unfairness?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

CeraDean said:


> Steve Strom said:
> 
> 
> > Its the sensation of electric itself that dogs have no concept of
> ...


It would depend on how the dog reacted to the beep or vibration. 

If the dog takes it in stride, no problem. If they are confused or have a negative reaction, I'd wait. There are a few fear periods that happen between 4 months and 15 months that can set you back if you're pushing things.

I think it's important for a dog to learn what corrections are when they are young, and that they aren't personal. I do not feel it's fair to put undue stress on a dog without them understanding that it's going to be OK and that their behavior drives the response. I'm not a fan of "let them figure it out" type training, because they may figure different than we figure they will figure. I'm also not a fan of corrections that a dog doesn't understand when it's less than mature.

TL;DR it depends on the dog.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Thank you for such a full response. I appreciate you taking the time.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

According to the instructions, the dog is not to be off leash until the 8th day of training.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> According to the instructions, the dog is not to be off leash until the 8th day of training.




Yup, I made that mistake or was over zealous. On take two. Going well, he's back to normal. The backyard is fun for him again. No shock for a while, he's pretty much observing the beeps and the flags on leash. May not ever turn the shock on if I don't have to.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I agree the dogs needs to know where the correction is coming from. The invisible fence does not keep dogs from coming on the property. My dogs are very territorial that is there job. I would not trust a invisible fence to keep them in when in full drive and they are left unattended. If your dog is friendly and allows strangers in the yard when unattended you would also have to worry about someone stealing your dog. Dog thieves are out there.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> I agree the dogs needs to know where the correction is coming from. The invisible fence does not keep dogs from coming on the property. My dogs are very territorial that is there job. I would not trust a invisible fence to keep them in when in full drive and they are left unattended. If your dog is friendly and allows strangers in the yard when unattended you would also have to worry about someone stealing your dog. Dog thieves are out there.


Thanks, totally agree on the dog needing to know where the correction is coming from and why, which would be the flags/perimeter. As I have mentioned several times in this thread - dog will not be unattended, I fully understand it does not allow dogs to come in (which does not happen ever), re: theft, again, never unattended.

Half the people I know with dogs have an e-fence and successfully use it in a fashion I will use it. The key is to understand what's it's capable of, what it's not capable of, and most importantly, how your dog responds to it. I had two dogs on the e-fence for 10 years without one single issue. One was a high drive GSD.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I've got no problem with e in general as a training method, done fairly even with a pup as young as 6 months---- except someone I knew of had their dog shot by some jerk when she charged to the fenceline of an e fence. Dog died. No repercussions for the shooter "he felt his life was in danger" from an 8 year old brown lab. 

So I won't ever be using one. If a lab scares someone so much, how about a 100 lb shepherd? 

Just another perspective.

I've also known many dogs that either were terrified to leave the yard who had an e-fence, or who regularly escaped. Wouldn't be an option I'd be comfortable with... boundary training I can do, but that type of thing would be only when I have my posted acreage out in the real middle of nowhere.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Saco said:


> I've got no problem with e in general as a training method, done fairly even with a pup as young as 6 months---- except someone I knew of had their dog shot by some jerk when she charged to the fenceline of an e fence. Dog died. No repercussions for the shooter "he felt his life was in danger" from an 8 year old brown lab.
> 
> So I won't ever be using one. If a lab scares someone so much, how about a 100 lb shepherd?
> 
> ...


My breeder agrees to wait until 6 months for a training e-collar. He's swears by them for certain training. Not sure I am going to be going that route, only if I have to to correct any serious behaviors. Right now he is miserable about the cat in the house. I can definitely see an application there.

I had to laugh out loud at the prospect of someone shooting my dog where I live. Not laughing at the lab, that is horrible. We definitely live in different parts of the country in different areas with different demographics. People don't carry guns on my quiet suburbia street. Not to mention, he will be in the backyard, not the front and he won't be unattended.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Frisco... I wouldn't be so sure about that. Are you familiar with Wayland, MA?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Saco said:


> Frisco... I wouldn't be so sure about that. Are you familiar with Wayland, MA?


Yes, got a horror story?


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I agree with waiting until 6 months until shock collar introduction. I think that is a good choice Frisco.

I do have a question about the training process, hopefully David Winners or Steve Storm can address. It was mentioned that the beep training and then shock correction introduction was "unfair." I doubt anyone wants to truly be unfair during training. 

So, I have been browsing through some Michael Ellis videos to see his method of fair introduction to pressure and stim. I'll quickly do a short recap/summary: He seems to say not to introduce "pressure" training until somewhere between 5 and 8 months, depending on the dog. Pressure training being leash pressure first so the dog understands that they can stop the pressure through their choice and action. Then introduce the shock at low levels.
This seems fair and I can see the correlation to e-fence training, but I am curious as to how you guys see the similarities and differences when compared to e-fence manufacturer recommendations (the one posted above is too fast for my liking) or compared to the step by step I provided previously.

Also, do you think "fair" training can occur with e-fence only and not purchasing an e-collar to introduce stim?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> I agree with waiting until 6 months until shock collar introduction. I think that is a good choice Frisco.
> 
> I do have a question about the training process, hopefully David Winners or Steve Storm can address. It was mentioned that the beep training and then shock correction introduction was "unfair." I doubt anyone wants to truly be unfair during training.
> 
> ...


Michael Ellis is the man. I pretty much train according to his DVD's, they are the gospel. I think the pup needs to know why he is getting shocked and if he doesn't this is what is confusing. I'll let the experts weigh in, but my take is, does the dog know he is not supposed to leave the yard and if he is capable of understanding "I am not supposed to go here" then a correction will correlate to the negative action. If he is not trained to understand this then it's not fair.

The instructions are very aggressive. They worked the last two times, this time the behaviors told me to step back and really proceed with caution, consider all the input and in the end, take my queue from the dog that he is ready and he gets it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Shocking a 16 week old puppy is like putting a shock collar on a 4 year old child. They certainly don't have the maturity or ability to really learn anything complex at that age. They are still in an imprinting stage and not much good can come from imprinting them with fear or pain.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Shocking a 16 week old puppy is like putting a shock collar on a 4 year old child. They certainly don't have the maturity or ability to really learn anything complex at that age. They are still in an imprinting stage and not much good can come from imprinting them with fear or pain.


Boy you are more antagonistic than me ;-), touche. So it's okay at 6 months which is the equivalent of putting it on a five year old? Most trainers use e collars at 6 months. The people analogy really doesn't compare BTW, we are humans, we learn differently, we can actually speak at 4 and process.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think some trainers use aversives at six months depending on a) the venue they are training a dog and b) time restrictions on training if they are training someone else's dogs where they would not normally use them time permitting.

Most of the trainers and people I know choose to train a puppy with praise for good behavior vs corrections for bad behavior. Michael Ellis is a big promoter of the former.

A puppy can think and process within limits at 4 months. But considering their limitations, all the more reason to go slowly and teach, teach, teach.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Frisco19 said:


> Boy you are more antagonistic than me ;-), touche. So it's okay at 6 months which is the equivalent of putting it on a five year old? Most trainers use e collars at 6 months. The people analogy really doesn't compare BTW, we are humans, we learn differently, we can actually speak at 4 and process.


A 6 month old is older than a human 5 year old. It would be closer to a 9-10 year old. 6-8 months is when a lot of dogs start going through puberty. So think 12 year olds. 

I do agree though that people analogy doesn't work super well. For example the common comparison of a full grown dog to a 3 year old child because they can do similar human tasks. 

Personally I wouldn't use an e-collar of correctives for as long as possible. I boundary trained my dogs with no aversives at a young age. If I was going to use an e-fence it would be after the dog has learned the boundaries and it then gets a correction once it goes passed them, dogs that like to run or a grown dog that hadn't been trained with no fence. But I'd still train boundaries before introducing a shock. I do that by keeping them on leash, walking the boundaries and staying in the yard. Then move to a long line so I they can go away from me and I can correct if they start to go past them. That's for grown dogs. With a puppy, especially a german shepherd I'd think you should very easily be able to teach boundaries with no e-fence and maybe add it later on as a precaution and a consequence for leaving the yard if the pup so has the propensity and verbal corrections aren't enough. 

Reading those instructions I can see how it could create fear issues depending on how the people interpret them.

I have thought about the e-collar for my seven month old puppy. He's good offleash but a couple times now he's caught a bird scent or starts chasing after one. He recalls on voice but if he stops then it might be useful. But if I don't have to I'm not going to go to it.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Kazel said:


> A 6 month old is older than a human 5 year old. It would be closer to a 9-10 year old. 6-8 months is when a lot of dogs start going through puberty. So think 12 year olds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is real good advice. Thank you. Boundary training is pretty much what I’m doing now albeit post shock. I definitely would have done it differently but if anything, he certainly knows the boundaries (the white flags) because of the few shocks he got. I do have the collar still on him so he can hear the beeps but have the prongs covered. I honestly can’t get him within beep tone of the flags to work on the pull back, but that’s ok for now. He definitely know exactly where to stop before it beeps. I don’t want to drag him. He does beep at the driveway line because there are no flags, so we do it there. 

Basically though, he is back to normal but won’t leave the backyard because of the flags so that’s a good thing. 

Not sure there is any perfect playbook or roadmap, but we are walking the boundaries and treating. No hesitation whatsoever going out. I do think he knows when the collar is on and when it’s off and what it means loosely. 

I’ll get there the right way, which is the right way for him based on his obedience. 

I do think he’s losing the sense that the beeps will hurt him because he isn’t really pulling back with vigor when he does beep. So at some point he will think the flags and beeps mean nothing and he will test it. I would like to think I won’t have to zap him, but I will at some point when he is ready. 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think people misinterpret my words into meaning their is a direct correlation between human and dog emotions and mentality levels at various ages. I am not. I am comparing respective maturation aspects. More importantly, I am talking about German Shepherd maturation vs that of a human. Speaking of the maturation level of a 6 month old Chihuahua as nearly the same as that of a 6 month old German Shepherd vs that of a 6 month old Great Dane vs a 6 year old child will net you very different results and IMO introduces too many variables. A 6 month old Chihuahua is most likely entering adolescence while a GSD most likely won't enter that stage until after 9 months while it can take a year or more for a Great Dane. 

Science states that a 12 month old dog is on the same maturation level of a 15 year old and a dog of 24 months is equal to a 24 year old adult. 

With that in mind and being that adolescence occurs AFTER puberty, does it make sense that a 9 - 12 month dog will begin to exhibit adolescent behaviors? Does it make sense that many types of training are reserved for after a GSD turns 1 year of age when they have the maturity to handle certain types of training? Should it surprise us that when dogs turn 2 years, a maturation equivalence to that of a 24 year old human, that switches start to flip and we start to see the adult dog start to emerge?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Frisco19 said:


> My breeder agrees to wait until 6 months for a training e-collar. He's swears by them for certain training. Not sure I am going to be going that route, only if I have to to correct any serious behaviors. Right now he is miserable about the cat in the house. I can definitely see an application there.
> .


you do realize that the invisible fence IS an e-collar correction? it is simply an automated system vs one with a handheld remote


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Dainerra said:


> you do realize that the invisible fence IS an e-collar correction? it is simply an automated system vs one with a handheld remote




Really? I thought it was a massager. 

Seriously, yes, My point was the training applications and uses are quite different. The e fence is not user driven. It’s driven by flags per se. 


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## BBill (Dec 29, 2017)

I have three German Shepherds...2 females and 1 male. The females WILL NOT leave 
their yard. You can see the boundry where the fence is. The male has a stubborn 
dog collar with a 9 volt battery. If he leaves it's to play with the Shepherd across the street.
He also WILL COME BACK across the fence line.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

BBill said:


> I have three German Shepherds...2 females and 1 male. The females WILL NOT leave
> their yard. You can see the boundry where the fence is. The male has a stubborn
> dog collar with a 9 volt battery. If he leaves it's to play with the Shepherd across the street.
> He also WILL COME BACK across the fence line.


Strong willed guy you have there! Fingers crossed, there are a lot of dogs in my neighborhood, all contained, but lots of dog walkers going by. That said, he will be in the backyard, but he knows when a dog is coming. We shall see, he won't be unsupervised (I should make this statement in my auto signature just for this thread since I am repeating it over and over).


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Frisco19 said:


> Really? I thought it was a massager.
> 
> Seriously, yes, My point was the training applications and uses are quite different. The e fence is not user driven. It’s driven by flags per se.
> 
> ...


actually, the application and use is identical. The flags are simply an additional visual cue to the training process. The point being, your pup is too young to understand what any of it means. He isn't old enough to have the impulse control or the attention span to keep himself from getting a correction. Yes, at this time it's a beep. But he doesn't actually know what the beep means.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Dainerra said:


> actually, the application and use is identical. The flags are simply an additional visual cue to the training process. The point being, your pup is too young to understand what any of it means. He isn't old enough to have the impulse control or the attention span to keep himself from getting a correction. Yes, at this time it's a beep. But he doesn't actually know what the beep means.




A trainer training with an e collar and a hand held transmitter is certainly different. You don’t know what you are taking about. They are not the same thing. 

Enough about my pup being too young. I’m not debating it, I’m stepping back and taking a different approach. Have I not said this 100 times?? Good grief!

The purpose of training with beep only is to teach him boundaries. Yes he will never know what the beep means until he is shocked, but he’ll get it a lot quicker with training and maturity. Yes, he was too young. My other dogs weren’t. I trained them at 16 weeks per the company literature. It didn’t work out that way this time. 




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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Let's agree to disagree and refrain from badgering the OP.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CeraDean said:


> Steve Storm and/or David Winners, would you approve of 'beep/vibrate' feedback only at a younger age than 6 months to aid in teaching the barrier of the fence that the dog will be contained with in the future?
> 
> Hopefully this makes sense, but I am imagining training with only beep and turn away until the dog matures? Or do you think that would still cause possible suspicion problems / unfairness?


Hey Cera, I'm not anyone to approve or disapprove anything. I'm not real big on gadgets or props for training anything. I do tend to look for more personal methods like the leash and rewards and praise because my whole goal is voice control and having fun. I'm not trying to be or sound judgmental about e. Other then the age thing, its just my preference.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

CeraDean said:


> I agree with waiting until 6 months until shock collar introduction. I think that is a good choice Frisco.
> 
> I do have a question about the training process, hopefully David Winners or Steve Storm can address. It was mentioned that the beep training and then shock correction introduction was "unfair." I doubt anyone wants to truly be unfair during training.
> 
> ...


I am staying out of this thread. Feel free to start another thread asking these questions and I will be happy to respond. I have been using a lot of ME techniques and philosophies for a long time. I would be happy to discuss my take on them if you would like.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Feel free to start another thread asking these questions and I will be happy to respond.


Thanks for addressing my question. I'll do some more research first and then post my own thread.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Thanks for addressing my question. I'll do some more research first and then post my own thread.


Sound approach CeraDean. You are going to get 1,000 different views on the same topic in terms of when, why and how. ME's take is very interesting and contradictory to a lot of the views in this mess of a thread. You will run the same risk creating another thread, best to do some homework.

My goal in this thread was to seek advice from actual e fence owners. As one, I will continue to share my experiences.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Cera, I'm not anyone to approve or disapprove anything. I'm not real big on gadgets or props for training anything. I do tend to look for more personal methods like the leash and rewards and praise because my whole goal is voice control and having fun. I'm not trying to be or sound judgmental about e. Other then the age thing, its just my preference.


I value your input and hearing about how you implement your techniques. As said above, I'll have some questions of my own after some more research. I look forward to your opinions.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

CeraDean said:


> I value your input and hearing about how you implement your techniques. As said above, I'll have some questions of my own after some more research. I look forward to your opinions.


If you're the research type, defentiely look at Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov, Larry Krohn and Lou Castle as well as ME.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> If you're the research type, defentiely look at Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov, Larry Krohn and Lou Castle as well as ME.



I love Larry Krohn, he explains things so well. Explains e-collars and their proper use extremely well.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CeraDean said:


> I value your input and hearing about how you implement your techniques. As said above, I'll have some questions of my own after some more research. I look forward to your opinions.


I got opinions, that's for sure, lol. I don't have any techniques or methods that you'd say are mine, I'm just a dog owner too Cera. Reward what you want, correct what you don't is about as complicated as I get.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> My goal in this thread was to seek advice from actual e fence owners. As one, I will continue to share my experiences.


It will be nice to hear how you progress with the e-fence training and when the shock introduction works well for your dog in actual practice.



David Winners said:


> If you're the research type, defentiely look at Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov, Larry Krohn and Lou Castle as well as ME.


Nail on head. I'm the research type. I appreciate the list.

I agree with cvamoca. I like what Larry Krohn has to say. He seems to explain things well and it applies to a world outside of sport as well in sport.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just had to post this here to give everyone a good laugh!
Good luck with your training!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Funny! 

I have nothing useful to add ( we have wood fence) except to say that I accidentally "boundary-trained" my older dog in a week. 

We had reseeded a large patch of our front yard - raked, 2-3" topsoil, seed, straw, and daily watering. The grass grew in beautifully. So, we used to just run out the front door and down the yard into the street, but these past 2 weeks, I did not want to walk on the reseeded patch. So I would pull him away saying, "Sacred Grass! Sacred Grass!" Now I don't have to say it anymore - he always goes down the right side of the front yard. My husband also reported that he no longer walks in that area of the front yard even when offleash...unintentional training.

It's kind of funny, I know! But it makes me think that boundary training could maybe be taught first without e - just when they reach edge of yard, pull them back with a warning. However I'm sure it won't hold for something like passing people, dogs,wildlife...so I know you would need to progress to a stronger method for that.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Thought I would post an update for future reference. 

After Frisco became afraid of the yard, I put a hard stop on the correction. I took a break and did boundary training with treats and praise. I had the collar on tone only. Training him the recommended way with a leash walk to the tone and a back wasn’t an option anymore. He would put a hard stop on that because of the correction. Some would say this was a good thing, but there was too much fear in his behavior for me. Not exactly what I wanted. 

So casual boundary training was good for a while and he observed the flags like he was going to get shocked. He still stayed pretty clear of them. Making the yard smaller for him than it needed to be. I also noticed that he associates being on leash in the yard with a correction. Makes sense since he was on leash when I walked him into the correction three weeks ago. 

So I had pretty much put it on hold. He was too confused and as others mentioned too young. That said, he was “contained” by flags and tones. 

About a week ago he started ignore the beeps. Walking right through them or on them. Part of this made me happy because he had regained his confidence and independence. So I figured I would do the leash thing to the tone and a quick back. But he still associated this training with getting corrected, so a hard stop. 

He also really matured a bit in these three weeks and I felt maybe he was ready for a correction and he would know what it was for now. I turned on correction and just let him do his thing off leash. He still observed the boundaries for the most part. The first day he did not encounter any corrections. The second day he got hit once and he responded well. He didn’t run in the house. In fact he just back off and stayed in the general area and kept doing his thing. I was prepared to shut it down again or for good if I had to. But I just felt like the boundary training made a difference. He also knew when the collar was on and when it was off and what it meant. (No beeps). Then he got the confidence to test it and wasn’t receiving a correction and began to push it. 

So after evaluating the three weeks, what’s been done since then, the older factor and his overall comfort level in the yard, it seems to be all good. 

Today I threw his ball up back and it started to roll into the flags and he stopped short in his tracks and waited for me to come get it. He was unphased. He also has a favorite place to dig a friggin hole just outside of a correction. 

So all in all, I’m comfortable at the moment. There is a 3 second delay in tone to correction and he’s getting out of it the few times he gets in it. He used to go to the door, now he keeps going about his business. Just had the Canine Company here to make an adjustment to decrease the zone from 6 feet to 3.5. It makes the yard a little wider. If he tests it I can turn it back up to 6. The correct is set one down from strongest. That too will give me something to work with if I need it. 

All this said, it may not contain him if he is strong willed when he gets older. I don’t have any plans to ever leave him unsupervised. He’s happy in the yard, knows the boundaries and understands where and why the correction happens.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have a tendency to err on the side of low stim vs. high stim. My Cane Corso dogs are on 2.5-3 out of 9. I have no idea what that equates to on your collar, and every dog is definitely different. I know the Dogtra units on full blast are really strong.

All the things you describe are good news! Thanks for the update!


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I have a tendency to err on the side of low stim vs. high stim. My Cane Corso dogs are on 2.5-3 out of 9. I have no idea what that equates to on your collar, and every dog is definitely different. I know the Dogtra units on full blast are really strong.
> 
> 
> 
> All the things you describe are good news! Thanks for the update!




Thanks for all your help David. I was tempted to have him turn it down. Only he can do that. It’s programmed into the collar. The distance adjustment was on the transmitter. I took note of that. My hope is that he is so obedient he never gets stimmed. Not realistic but one can hope. I will definitely keep you posted.


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