# Byb please stop breeding dogs!



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Well, people are already setting off firecrackers (even though it is illegal to in my city) and Brutus is already refusing to go outside! I am currently waiting for the hubby to come home from work to make Brutus go outside because this nutty dog hasn't relieved himself in hours. We have worked with Brutus and he has overcome so many of his fears, but we can't get him to lose his fear of firecrackers. Any helpful ideas on this topic will be appreciated. 

If there are any BYB's reading this-PLEASE STOP BREEDING DOGS WITHOUT MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY SOUND. Dogs with all these problems suffer and require a heck of a lot from an owner. Many owners give up on dealing with issue after issue with their poorly bred dog. I am not going to give up on my dog because I know that it isn't his fault. I'd also like to mention that he is AKC registered so this paper doesn't prove a thing concerning a dogs breeding- I didn't know anything about picking a reputable breeder when I purchased him...boy have I learned! I love my big boy with all my heart but he is the type of dog that only a mom and dad could love


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I understand your frustration because I have one of those dogs too but I don't think it has much to do with breeding. I've had some badly bred dogs with nerves of steel and my mom has a talent that allows her to turn even the most oblivious of dog's to quivering, bowls of attention seeking jello due to her over-mothering. She once turned my 6 year old dog who had zero history of ever being afraid of anything into one that would drool and shake and barf when someone set off a firecracker or anything similar... All in one camping trip!!!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Well, the day we brought him home he was 7 weeks old, and he was afraid of the car, afraid to go outside, afraid of the garbage can, vacuum, the list goes on and on. I am not they type of person to baby or feed into his fear. So we did get him to overcome many, many, fears. But firecrackers and thunderstorms -well, we still need to work on that. His breeder lived on a farm and kept the puppies out in a barn. He had never been socialized at all either. From a tiny pup we had to deal with aggression issues as well. He is MUCH better behaved now, but he is a work in progress still. My other dog, Oso-he's not afraid of anything. I took him to the firework display with me last year and we sat right up front and he didn't mind one bit. I just wish that Brutus could have joined us.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I hear you. My old man is scared of any loud noise. I am glad we are gone from Texas where we had thunderstorms. Those days were miserable.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

yup. my pound puppy still doesn't like firecrakers  she doesn't like thunder either but she will go and pee if she has too...but firecrackers? NOPE.
she hates the 4th of july and she hates new years


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

I've got one of these special need dogs. Zoe is mine and she is a dog only we could love. But I wouldn't trade her for the world.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Its not just byb who breed nerotic dogs. I have seen many dogs at dogs shows from the big name GSD kennels who are so nerotic they climb up their owners back scratching and clawing to get away from strangers, won't let strangers/judges approach them.
These are well bred show dogs.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Its not just byb who breed nerotic dogs. I have seen many dogs at dogs shows from the big name GSD kennels who are so nerotic they climb up their owners back scratching and clawing to get away from strangers, won't let strangers/judges approach them.
> These are well bred show dogs.


 
If these were well bred show dogs then they would have the correct temperment.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

jaggirl47 said:


> If these were well bred show dogs then they would have the correct temperment.


Exactly my thought-aren't they excluded from the competition if their temperament isn't right?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I think we should say too: PEOPLE, STOP BUYING FROM BYB, YOUR MONEY IS THE REASON THEY KEEP BREEDING. I know you said you didn't know better before coming to this forum but ignorance is not an excuse, not in todays world.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Exactly my thought-aren't they excluded from the competition if their temperament isn't right?


 
Yes, they are. They are supposed to be disqualified if the judge is unable to approach and touch them.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Catu said:


> I think we should say too: PEOPLE, STOP BUYINB FROM BYB, YOUR MONEY IS THE REASON THEY KEEP BREEDING. I know you said you didn't know better before coming to this forum but *ignorance is not an excuse, not in todays world*.


I'm not sure I really agree with this. If you have no idea that breeding could possibly contribute to a problem, then I think it is a perfectly good explanation. If you don't even know a problem exists you can't search for a solution. I know that when I first came here, I was looking at some GSD puppies that these people had advertised in the paper. I almost got one, but then decided at the last minute that I wanted to adopt instead. Only since coming to this forum have I realized what a BYB is or why they are bad. Like I said, if people don't know there's a problem you can't possibly expect them to avoid it. Maybe instead of blaming people who aren't as knowledgeable, we should work really hard to educate the public.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Catu said:


> I think we should say too: PEOPLE, STOP BUYINB FROM BYB, YOUR MONEY IS THE REASON THEY KEEP BREEDING. I know you said you didn't know better before coming to this forum but ignorance is not an excuse, not in todays world.


If you want to start a new thread you are welcome to. My thread is about the breeders deceiving people and selling these dogs to unsuspecting, people who like myself think (in my case thought) that AKC papers mean a quality dog. So you know it all and were born knowing it, well good for you. But don't pass judgement on others talking about "not in todays world" because you are ignorant if you think that everybody is so well informed about this.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I'm not sure I really agree with this. If you have no idea that breeding could possibly contribute to a problem, then I think it is a perfectly good explanation. If you don't even know a problem exists you can't search for a solution. I know that when I first came here, I was looking at some GSD puppies that these people had advertised in the paper. I almost got one, but then decided at the last minute that I wanted to adopt instead. Only since coming to this forum have I realized what a BYB is or why they are bad. Like I said, if people don't know there's a problem you can't possibly expect them to avoid it. Maybe instead of blaming people who aren't as knowledgeable, we should work really hard to educate the public.


Thank you. When I first found this forum, I wanted to learn more and get some helpful tips to help me help my dog. It is because of certain people (there are many here who are helpful) but I repeat certain people who make me very hesitant at times to say certain things because some people are very judgmental and their attitude is stifling to others.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I think that many of us got dogs from BYBs and their nerves are just fine. And many of us got dogs from so-called 'good' breeders and they are basket cases. Show dogs are bred for show, not for temperament or anything else unless the breeder chooses it. Just because a judge can approach them means nothing about their temperament.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> I think that many of us got dogs from BYBs and their nerves are just fine. And many of us got dogs from so-called 'good' breeders and they are basket cases. .


Don't "good breeders" guarantee their puppies temperament?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

You know... I agree with everything you say. Even the part of that not everybody is born knowing it all. I puposelly wrote a statment that I kenw was going to be controversial because I wanted to shake some ruffles and get some reactions. 

What I think it is importatnt to rescue from my post is that poep´le should start pitting all the blame in the breeders, and creating labels and categories: responsible breeder, reputable breeder, back yard breeder, puppy mill, etc. Yes, there is blame in the breeders, but there is blame in the buyers and owners too.

Why in Germany you will not get all those guaranties yet they keep breeding dogs of good quality (show or working, depending in the taste)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Catu said:


> Why in Germany you will not get all those guaranties yet they keep breeding dogs of good quality (show or working, depending in the taste)


Because in Germany, buying a registered dog _means something_. It means both parents have SchH titles and certified hips-- even the show dogs. Here in the United States, registration means absolutely nothing. There is no minimum standard of quality that dogs have to meet in order to be AKC registered. Unfortunately the average buyer thinks that AKC registration papers _are_ an indication of quality, when in fact they are not.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Catu said:


> You know... I agree with everything you say. Even the part of that not everybody is born knowing it all. I puposelly wrote a statment that I kenw was going to be controversial because I wanted to shake some ruffles and get some reactions.
> 
> What I think it is importatnt to rescue from my post is that poep´le should start pitting all the blame in the breeders, and creating labels and categories: responsible breeder, reputable breeder, back yard breeder, puppy mill, etc. Yes, there is blame in the breeders, but there is blame in the buyers and owners too.
> 
> Why in Germany you will not get all those guaranties yet they keep breeding dogs of good quality (show or working, depending in the taste)


How can you blame the owners whom were deceived into thinking that they had bought a quality pup who is AKC registered and you get your beautiful puppy with papers, and then before long all these issue's start surfacing and the breeder won't help you at all. Mine actually told me to pinch his nose real hard and he would stop being aggressive. Do you think that BYB have a sign up that say BYB here? No, they don't. They say they are quality, that they have registered puppies (and mine did) the breeder had the puppy vet checked, dewormed, first shots. She never told me a thing that had been going on, she claimed he was socialized. She only did 2 litters a year. At the time I thought that she was a good breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have never had a dog petrified of thunder or fireworks. I have never had a dog afraid to go to the vet. In fact, I can take my dad's dog to the vet and he is not petrified. With my dad, he is. So should I refund my dad's purchase price as he has a dog that is petrified of the vet (when he is with him)?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

It's just as much the buyers responsibility to give their money to reputable sources as it is the BYB's selling these dogs... maybe more. 

When buying a puppy, you're bringing home a life you're going to most likely spend the next 10+ years with. You're not buying a pair of jeans you can just throw in the back of your closet and forget about. It's your responsibility as a responsible owner to do your homework. 

In this day and age of google searches and messages boards and what not, it really doesn't take much to do a little research. Everything is right in front of you... it's up to you not to rush into things and make good decisions.

Would you just go to a used car lot and ask the salesman if a random car he was trying to sell is good quality without checking it out first? No... i'd hope not. You'd do your research... call around... read up on the car... look at the mileage...run a carfax... take the car for the test drive, etc. Why is making a big life decision like bringing a puppy home any different?

Just my $.02


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

There is this thing called 'sound sure'. It is a trait that is bred for. My dog has it, her puppies have it. I have seen a dog react negatively to gun fire and still place at a show. I will not breed to that dog, now that I know. But he is being bred a lot. I hope it was just a bad day for him and that he is not passing that on. There were fireworks the next town over tonight, and my puppies had no reaction to the them. Albeit they were not that close, but you could hear them. So hopefully they can gradually get used to the noise. GSD that camps down the road, freaks out with loud noises. Purchased for $300 from a byb. I hope that is the only issue they have with her, she is only a year old.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

PaddyD said:


> I think that many of us got dogs from BYBs and their nerves are just fine. And many of us got dogs from so-called 'good' breeders and they are basket cases. Show dogs are bred for show, not for temperament or anything else unless the breeder chooses it. Just because a judge can approach them means nothing about their temperament.


A show dog should absolutely be bred for temperament. In my opinion, it should be the number 1 priority for the breeder.... show or working.

What kind of temperament? Well, that part is up to the breeder.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> It's just as much the buyers responsibility to give their money to reputable sources as it is the BYB's selling these dogs... maybe more.
> 
> When buying a puppy, you're bringing home a life you're going to most likely spend the next 10+ years with. You're not buying a pair of jeans you can just throw in the back of your closet and forget about. It's your responsibility as a responsible owner to do your homework.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

These days unfortunately AKC registration papers mean just that: AKC registrations papers. AKC papers ONLY guarantee a puppy is purebred(we won't get into multiple sired litters and very questionable litters) with a purebred pedigree. Nothing more at all. Years ago, AKC meant top quality dogs, it meant well bred dogs. Now it just means they are purebred.
As far as top name kennels, I am not going to put them on public forum. I have seen bad temperaments from these kennels, just like I have seen super temperament from the same kennels. Just because they have a big name does not mean ALL their dogs are perfect temperament.
And someone mentioned about bad temperaments being disqualified in the showring. Yes, they are supposed to be, but I had a top handler tell me once that even the worst temperamented GSD can be trained to stand and be touched by a judge, but outside the ring the dog was a total basket case. Won many BIS and Group placements
However, alot of temperament issues are genetic, but there are some that are "owner made'. Some the owners bring on themselves, some are brought on not realizing it.
Bad temperaments are not just from BYB. It is sad that so many people blame everything on the byb. Nobody says, well I might have brought this on, I might have caused some of this. Yes, there are alot of GSD out there from BYB that are not stable or have issues, but there are plenty out there from big name breeders just the same.
Most good breeders will back up their dogs, some won't. Some BYB will back up their dogs, most won't. 
I just hate seeing post after post about BYB being the cause of all the problem GSD in the world.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

germanshepherdlova said:


> if you want to start a new thread you are welcome to. My thread is about the breeders deceiving people and selling these dogs to unsuspecting, people who like myself think (in my case thought) that akc papers mean a quality dog. So you know it all and were born knowing it, well good for you. But don't pass judgement on others talking about "not in todays world" because you are ignorant if you think that everybody is so well informed about this.


wow!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

At one time I had two female GSD's. The older one was from a definite BYB and the younger (once I learned more about the GSD) one was from a top show kennel.

Both had tremendous temperament - could trust them around strangers and other dogs and even little puppies. Both of them were appropriately protective when needed. I actually trained both of them in ScH and both did well.

Conformation wise was the only place where they differed. The BYB one was a TERRIBLE conformation (got a CD on her though) examploe. The second was a great looking dog and I had a number of top pro handlers come up unsolicited to me and offer to show her after I showed her in a few shows as a puppy and gurantee me they could finish her in 6 months! (never did due to changes in our life in jobs and address).

Point is that we got great dogs from a BYB and also from a US show line kennel. More common than not in my opinion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have to agree with it being the buyer's responsibility to do some research. If they do, hopefully, they will realize that there are NO perfect puppies out there. 

You have a problem with a dog who doesn't like fire-crackers, and maybe has some problems with thunder? Someone who is dealing with a dog aggressive dog, or a dog that has bitten someone, is probably reading this and thinking, "wanna trade?" Someone dealing with Maga-E or EPI or DM, might be saying the same. 

When we have children, we do not send them back if they have a problem. We deal with it. 

I have nothing against spending extra to put your money with good breeders who are trying to limit the problems common to the breed, but if paying $1000 more for a puppy could guarantee that your pup will be and remain healthy, maybe everyone would factor that cost in.


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

OP how old is he? what have you done in training him not to be afraid?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

great post Selzer. 
Wouldn't it be great to be able to have a litter and know that every puppy leaving your home at 8 or 10 weeks old was guaranteed to be perfect?? Wishful thinking for sure.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There are people no matter what you tell them and show them they will go back and buy from a BYB and don't care.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree that if buyers did their homework there wouldn't be as many issues as you see out there.

I also agree, no matter what you tell someone, try to educate, for ALOT it boils down to price. I hear alot "I can't justify paying xxx for a dog",,well in some cases you don't have to pay xxx for a good dog, as long as you've done your homework.

It's also alot of "impulse" buying as well. Who can resist a cute puppy? 

People are continue to breed and people are going to continue to buy whatever.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Well, people are already setting off firecrackers (even though it is illegal to in my city) and Brutus is already refusing to go outside! I am currently waiting for the hubby to come home from work to make Brutus go outside because this nutty dog hasn't relieved himself in hours. We have worked with Brutus and he has overcome so many of his fears, but we can't get him to lose his fear of firecrackers. Any helpful ideas on this topic will be appreciated.
> 
> If there are any BYB's reading this-PLEASE STOP BREEDING DOGS WITHOUT MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY SOUND. Dogs with all these problems suffer and require a heck of a lot from an owner. Many owners give up on dealing with issue after issue with their poorly bred dog. I am not going to give up on my dog because I know that it isn't his fault. I'd also like to mention that he is AKC registered so this paper doesn't prove a thing concerning a dogs breeding- I didn't know anything about picking a reputable breeder when I purchased him...boy have I learned! I love my big boy with all my heart but he is the type of dog that only a mom and dad could love


I reposted this, the original thread, because people are getting carried away here, insinuating that I do not want to deal with my dog. *His fear of thunder and firecrackers are by no means the worst of what I have dealt with so far. He has bitten in the past, severe aggression issues, car chasing, are only a few. I have worked with him very hard and he has overcome a lot.* I also asked for any *HELPFUL* ideas to help him overcome this. I did not originate this thread to be insulted nor to argue, any responses of this nature-I will ignore.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

TriadGSD said:


> OP how old is he? what have you done in training him not to be afraid?


As far as training him not to be afraid we used desensitizing through repetition. This worked very well for many of his fears. Fireworks and thunderstorms are not something that happen consistently year round, that is why it is much more difficult to desensitize him to these sounds. For his aggression we used Alpha Training. He has done wonderful with this training, I am a strong supporter of it because he used to bite and draw blood but after this training he has not bitten again. He is 2 1/2 years old.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think you will get him to overcome his fear of firecrackers or Tstorms. 

I have an aussie who is not from a byb, from some of the top lines in aussie-dom
she is afraid of tstorms/firecrackers, she's now 11 and she's never overcome it, nor will she. 

As some have posted in the past, you can't change genetics, but you can sometimes manage what you've got.

Car chasing- easy don't give him the opportunity
biting people -again easy don't give him the opportunity
severe aggressio - also easy don't give him the opportunity

Manage ALL his situations, don't put him in situations where those opportunities could present themselves. 

The storm/firecrackers, well that can be a real tough one. I use melatonin on my aussie, it tends to chill her out tho she is still afraid..Some have used a Thunder shirt with good results. 

I don't recall if you tried private training/or behaviorists that specialize in his type of problems, but that would be something to consider as well.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

My mothers collie is a wreck with thunderstorms, fireworks, gunfire, etc. He will pant, drool, vomit, and eventually will work himself up into such a frenzy that he will go into a full grand mal seizure. We have tried to retrain him but due to the severity we have to drug him. Freyja sometimes can distract him by hip checking and biting him, but if it's a good storm he's a goner. He's a rescue so we don't know his history, but due to his hip issues and being waaaayyy out of the breed standard(28 inches at the shoulder) I suspect BYB. I know your pain.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think some of that fear of fire crackers, gun shots,
loud noise is a lack of training/exposure. how many
people expose their pups to loud noise as part of their training?
how many people take their pups out during a thunder storm
or when it's raining?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i think some of that fear of fire crackers, gun shots,
> loud noise is a lack of training/exposure. how many
> people expose their pups to loud noise as part of their training?
> how many people take their pups out during a thunder storm
> or when it's raining?


 
Actually, my older dog was raised on Army bases with constant loud noises in areas with pretty frequent thunderstorms. He has never gotten over his fear of loud noises. My hubby and I have taken him to firing ranges for several years and he still almost pees himself when he hears the gun shots. Sometimes all the training in the world will not help a dog with weak nerves.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

training, socializing and early exposure helps. i trained
in areas where there was heavy car traffic, biting (training and socializing), aggression (training and socializing). i'm sure some dogs
have a different temperment and mentality and it's just in them
to be aggressive, biters, car chasers etc.



JakodaCD OA said:


> As some have posted in the past, you can't change genetics, but you can sometimes manage what you've got.
> 
> Car chasing- easy don't give him the opportunity
> biting people -again easy don't give him the opportunity
> ...


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> training, socializing and early exposure helps. i trained
> in areas where there was heavy car traffic, biting (training and socializing), aggression (training and socializing). i'm sure some dogs
> have a different temperment and mentality and it's just in them
> to be aggressive, biters, car chasers etc.
> ...


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

All these problems you are talking about are a lack of training and socialization, NOT from breeding it's self. Anyone can ruin a dog with even the best temperament and nerves. All you have to do is cuddle them and give them treats and tell them it'll be ok during a thunderstorm to encourage them that their fear is real and they have every right to panic when it happens.

My neighbor bred a litter of BYB dogs, actually the mom was bought from a puppy mill and the dad was still living and being used in a puppy mill. My neighbor didn't know any better. I spared MY time to make sure they came out ok before, during and after the puppies were born. Despite the parents having problems and coming from an awful woman, the puppies turned out FINE. Why? Because as SOON as they were born we were handling them, doing biosensor exercises, we had other people handling them (of all ages, color and wearing different things such as hats, puffy coats, ect), they were exposed to other animals, they were exposed to noises, different objects, EVERYTHING. All 4 of the puppies had solid nerves and were ready to take on the world. So far (1.5 years later!) nobody has had any bad comments about their dogs except when she'll have another litter because their new dog was so well behaved and non-fearful. If you can get that from 2 puppymill dogs then I think in most cases if people just took more time out for the pups that there wouldn't be so many problems. Of course, there is also that continued exposure AFTER the puppies go to new homes as well. It can't stop at the breeder which we told everyone who got a puppy from my neighbor which is why they continue to have success at keeping their friendly, curious and social pups who can go out in public well behaved and ready for anything that comes their way. But I still want to make another point about you also have to know which behaviors to praise and which to ignore when they leave the breeder. They aren't children, they're dogs. If you pet them and try to "calm" them with words when they're freaking out, you're just going to feed that behavior. If you ignore it and ONLY reward when they're calm, they'll learn that gun shots, thunderstorms, fireworks, ect are OK.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> All these problems you are talking about are a lack of training and socialization, NOT from breeding it's self. Anyone can ruin a dog with even the best temperament and nerves. All you have to do is cuddle them and give them treats and tell them it'll be ok during a thunderstorm to encourage them that their fear is real and they have every right to panic when it happens.
> 
> My neighbor bred a litter of BYB dogs, actually the mom was bought from a puppy mill and the dad was still living and being used in a puppy mill. My neighbor didn't know any better. I spared MY time to make sure they came out ok before, during and after the puppies were born. Despite the parents having problems and coming from an awful woman, the puppies turned out FINE. Why? Because as SOON as they were born we were handling them, doing biosensor exercises, we had other people handling them (of all ages, color and wearing different things such as hats, puffy coats, ect), they were exposed to other animals, they were exposed to noises, different objects, EVERYTHING. All 4 of the puppies had solid nerves and were ready to take on the world. So far (1.5 years later!) nobody has had any bad comments about their dogs except when she'll have another litter because their new dog was so well behaved and non-fearful. If you can get that from 2 puppymill dogs then I think in most cases if people just took more time out for the pups that there wouldn't be so many problems. Of course, there is also that continued exposure AFTER the puppies go to new homes as well. It can't stop at the breeder which we told everyone who got a puppy from my neighbor which is why they continue to have success at keeping their friendly, curious and social pups who can go out in public well behaved and ready for anything that comes their way. But I still want to make another point about you also have to know which behaviors to praise and which to ignore when they leave the breeder. They aren't children, they're dogs. If you pet them and try to "calm" them with words when they're freaking out, you're just going to feed that behavior. If you ignore it and ONLY reward when they're calm, they'll learn that gun shots, thunderstorms, fireworks, ect are OK.


 
Actually, it has been proven weak nerves are genetic so no, it is not always lack of socialization. Generalizing it either way is not always the correct answer. Sometimes, no matter what kind of training and socialization you do, the dog just has weak nerves.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It is absolutely genetic. Genetics are HUGE - like 80/20, over environment. Environment can make things better or worse - or in other words, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I say that with love I have for dogs who are not genetically strong, because those are the kind of dogs I enjoy having. 

Yahoo group - read the archives, get great information here: shy-k9s : shy-k9s


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> It is absolutely genetic. Genetics are HUGE - like 80/20, over environment. Environment can make things better or worse - or in other words, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I say that with love I have for dogs who are not genetically strong, because those are the kind of dogs I enjoy having.
> 
> Yahoo group - read the archives, get great information here: shy-k9s : shy-k9s


I have a thread that I started a week or two ago titled DO NOT PET OR BABY A FEARFUL PUPPY. I never babied my dog or fed his fear. Some commenters here repeatedly ignored the fact that I have been working with him and he has overcome many of his fears. He was fearful since the day we got him.

I had to work with a professional to Alpha train him. To say that my dog hasn't been trained or socialized is insanity. 

Of course it is genetics, my dog was born this way. You can lay all this information out to some of these commenters and they are just going to repeat their same response as usual. Of course who exactly are these people. They seem very determined to blame the owner and not the dog that was born genetically impaired. I suspect that one of them is a breeder, and I am not going to say which kind of breeder I suspect either.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Almost all the weak nerved dogs I've ever met came from people who got the puppy BECAUSE the parents had good temperaments and nerves. HOWEVER, most of the people GETTING the puppies are IDIOTS when it comes to raising and training dogs. They either lack any training or think they need to hug on the dog when it's scared which creates more fear.

I'm sure dogs can be genetically prone to fear, I'm not saying it's not possible. But the amount of animals I come across with anxiety, OCD and fear (often fear aggression) can't be all breeding. I see far too many mistakes owners make with their animals to be able to say it's all because of breeding.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Of course it is genetics, my dog was born this way.


We need a dog parody for that song.  I think it could work...

Anyways, my response wasn't totally directed at YOU but I guess more as a general observation of the public. So many people are quick to say it's just how their dog is when there ARE things to fix it, people just refuse to put towards the effort once it happens or blame the dog because they never put forth the effort to prevent it in the first place. Be it the breeder or current owner or both. It's not just a fear of sounds, it's the dogs I see who have OCD behaviors, are destructive, fear aggression, fearful of certain types of people, fearful of other animals, ect. I'm not sure how people can say so quickly that all of this is genetic. I've met people who act like destructive behaviors are unfixable as if the problem were something like deafness. "Oh there is nothing we can do, it's just how the dog is". You try suggesting they take their dog out for more exercise and they say "we tried it, it didn't work". Ask how much and they say they walked around the block for 10min. (Or often times, the dog DRAGGED them down the street for 10min so they got frustrated and gave up) Tell them they need to put up with it and take the dog out for an hour and they "just don't have the time for that, it wont work anyways". Especially people who get active dogs like Labs, Goldens, German Shepherds, ect.

Again, not directed towards the OP specifically, just me going off on a rant I suppose.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Oh and to add to how stupid the general public can be, I once met a lady at the dog park who made her dog obese so that he couldn't move as fast. I think if anything, we need to consider what kind of PEOPLE we are breeding into the world before we are so quick to blame the dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> We need a dog parody for that song.  I think it could work...
> 
> Anyways, my response wasn't totally directed at YOU but I guess more as a general observation of the public. So many people are quick to say it's just how their dog is when there ARE things to fix it, people just refuse to put towards the effort once it happens or blame the dog because they never put forth the effort to prevent it in the first place. Be it the breeder or current owner or both. It's not just a fear of sounds, it's the dogs I see who have OCD behaviors, are destructive, fear aggression, fearful of certain types of people, fearful of other animals, ect. I'm not sure how people can say so quickly that all of this is genetic. I've met people who act like destructive behaviors are unfixable as if the problem were something like deafness. "Oh there is nothing we can do, it's just how the dog is". You try suggesting they take their dog out for more exercise and they say "we tried it, it didn't work". Ask how much and they say they walked around the block for 10min. (Or often times, the dog DRAGGED them down the street for 10min so they got frustrated and gave up) Tell them they need to put up with it and take the dog out for an hour and they "just don't have the time for that, it wont work anyways". Especially people who get active dogs like Labs, Goldens, German Shepherds, ect.
> 
> Again, not directed towards the OP specifically, just me going off on a rant I suppose.


It is not wise to direct a response towards anyone, especially because you know nothing about me or any other person commenting here to classify us into this group of "morons" that you are attempting to. In addition to all the training that I have done with my dog, he is walked 4 times a day. No less than 1 1/2 hours per day, EVERYDAY. Regardless of the weather, rain, snow, cold, very hot day, doesn't matter-we are out there. :happyboogie:I am a bit amused by you, wondering what you will come up with next in your attempt to declare us owners of these difficult dogs to blame for their genetics instead of their BREEDERS.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if fear of thunder was environmental or lack of socialization, mine would be terrified of thunder and lightning. Because I am. I have been out at the vet's with a pair of puppies staying on their porch, petrified of going to my car because of the thunder. The pups were fine, and did not turn into being fearful of thunder. 

I will go out to their kennels petrified to let them in during storms, and they are perfectly fine with storms, all of them. This suggests to me that the condition is genetic, or can be genetic. 

Going to the vet, however, I think people transmit that to their dogs. If the dog has confidence in whoever he is with, they may not be as freaked out by a vet visit. From what people describe about thunder, it has no bearing how much confidence the dog has in the owner.

However, I do think that dogs have problems and are going to have problems. Some are worse than others. It sounds like the op got a host of problems with the dog. If it was one quirk about sound-nerviness, I don't know, my gut says dogs have quirks some are worse than others. I have a bitch that plays in her water bucket -- pain in my butt, it is a quirk, but we can deal with it. 

I understand now that the OP has many problems with this dog. It has many quirks. I can only say that we learn more from the difficult ones than the easy ones. And the difficult ones make us appreciate the easy ones.

A good breeder can produce a dog with a lot of quirks. I am sorry that your breeder is not open to hearing what you are going through. If this is the only pup in the litter like this, she may be blaming you. There are people out there that are looking for issues and even creating issues. That is frrustrating, but really no excuse to at least talk to a puppy buyer and offer suggestions. 

I do not believe there is any training that you can really do to help the dog, only management, and if that means using lilac (I think), or some type of light sedative, when you know there will be firecrackers or thunder, that may be the best thing to do. 

My brother's Jazzy was terrified of storms until she died at eleven. She would shake and hide under the desk. That was the extent of it though, they did not need special apparatus or drug therapy to help her. Like everything else there seems to be spectrum to which a dog reacts to their fear.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

might be the training and socializing (lack of).



wyominggrandma said:


> Its not just byb who breed nerotic dogs. I have seen many dogs at dogs shows from the big name GSD kennels who are so nerotic they climb up their owners back scratching and clawing to get away from strangers, won't let strangers/judges approach them.
> These are well bred show dogs.





jaggirl47 said:


> If these were well bred show dogs then they would have the correct temperment.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

selzer said:


> I think that if fear of thunder was environmental or lack of socialization, mine would be terrified of thunder and lightning. Because I am. I have been out at the vet's with a pair of puppies staying on their porch, petrified of going to my car because of the thunder. The pups were fine, and did not turn into being fearful of thunder.
> 
> I will go out to their kennels petrified to let them in during storms, and they are perfectly fine with storms, all of them. This suggests to me that the condition is genetic, or can be genetic.
> 
> ...


 
Sue, very good post. My old man can go almost anywhere and love on people, dogs, whatever. I have no issues with any of that. It is strictly loud noises and he has grown up with kids so loud noises are very familiar. Nothing we have done breaks him of this. Period. His parents had temperment issues but I do not know about noises.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

this is totally wrong. what do you mean
unless the breeder chooses it???



PaddyD said:


> Show dogs are bred for show, not for temperament or anything else unless the breeder chooses it.
> 
> Just because a judge can approach them means nothing about their temperament.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Selzer, when I take Brutus to the vet he walks in with me, no problem. He even goes back with them when I tell him to. So thank you for pointing out the difference between fear of loud sounds and lack of trust. 

I have learned a great deal about myself and about dogs in general from dealing with my difficult dog. Many people have asked me, "Why do you keep him?" The answer is simple, because I LOVE HIM WITH ALL MY HEART. Nobody promised that life will be easy, I look at Brutus as an opportunity for me to learn, and to help him, and to love unselfishly, no matter what.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

I gotta admit, I got my 1st GSD from a BYB. They were good working line dogs, 250.00 from the local paper. I learned from the locals they WERE really nice dogs. When I hired on our local trainer (who is still going strong after 15 years now), he was impressed (also a GSD owner, had a beautiful Sable male). Trained her for protection, she was a great. Perfect dog. Nerves of steel, and a great family dog. You really need to judge on a case by case basis....90% suck, and are just looking for a fast buck, but that hidden jewel, with great dogs, backs them up, but isn't well off, does exist. would have been better if I had been well educated, but i did in fact get lucky.
This time around I didn't take a chance...I took 6 months researching breeders before buying.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I wonder if there's ever been a study done on dogs and thunder, or how the change in barometric pressure, the static in the air from lightening and other storms related changes in the air affect dogs in general? Thunder might fall outside the realm of temperament issues, depending on the circumstances. Maybe?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I wonder if there's ever been a study done on dogs and thunder, or how the change in barometric pressure, the static in the air from lightening and other storms related changes in the air affect dogs in general? Thunder might fall outside the realm of temperament issues, depending on the circumstances. Maybe?


Thunder might, but nothing changes when fireworks go off. It's just plain old loud noises.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

epilepsy is weird. Sometimes it manifests as a type of rage syndrome. Sometimes it has major seizures. Sometimes it has minor seizures, and in people anyway, it can be as simple as a blank look in the eye for a moment or two. 

I wonder if the change in barometer, static, may be somehow linked to certain types of epilepsy, and I wonder if dogs that have this serious fear of thunder/storms actually have something similar to epilepsy. 

Just a thought.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Man, I must have just completely lucked out with Kain. I got my boy from a nasty ol' BYB and he doesn't exhibit any temperment or health problems as of yet ( 1 year old ). He does, however, like to 'DOINK' me when I get home from work.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I have learned a great deal about myself and about dogs in general from dealing with my difficult dog. Many people have asked me, "Why do you keep him?" The answer is simple, because I LOVE HIM WITH ALL MY HEART. Nobody promised that life will be easy, I look at Brutus as an opportunity for me to learn, and to help him, and to love unselfishly, no matter what.


You had mentioned in an earlier post that he was afraid of things when you first brought him home and that he hadn't been socialized at all before he left the breeders. Were these things you were concerned about when you first got him, or is it only looking back now that you can put the pieces of the puzzle together and have the "ah ha" moment where you realize he has some nerve issues?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Molly is athletic, aloof, energetic, beautiful, but has fear issues and is somewhat skittish and scared of thunder. Her mother was skittish and fearful(thank goodness she wasn't a fear biter). So I believe some of her skittishness and fear issues were passed on from her mother. You can't help control the issues and help the dog grow out of it, but sometimes you can't.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I don't think we s/b too quick to blame the poor BYBs. Many of 'em are as ignorant of sound breeding practices & canine genetics as their buyers. 

The above statement is only somewhat tongue in cheek. I agree with Catu that buyers as well as breeders need to take responsibility when choosing & purchasing their pups. BYBs are not new. Health & temperament issues aren't either. The internet makes a wealth of information readily available to those who seek it out. It's regrettable so many people don't avail themselves of it, especially when a poor choice is made that could so easily have been avoided. 

This is a general sentiment & NOT directed at the OP. Germanshepherlova, you're to be commended for committing to your 'problem child' & loving him despite his issues. Please don't automatically discount remarks that you consider critical. It's a public board & the comments are potentially useful to future puppy buyers.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Molly is athletic, aloof, energetic, beautiful, but has fear issues and is somewhat skittish and scared of thunder. Her mother was skittish and fearful(thank goodness she wasn't a fear biter). So I believe some of her skittishness and fear issues were passed on from her mother. You can't help control the issues and help the dog grow out of it, but sometimes you can't.


I would like to add to my statement that neither I or my family knew what a BYB or bad breeder was, we didn't know better, my mom had a GSD growing up and my dad's grandma had GSDs. Now that I know the difference I know better when it comes to looking for my next puppy. I love both of my dogs and all that comes with them, I wouldn't trade either of them for anything. I am doing my research now and will continue to do my research. With the internet it is easy to get the information you need.


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> As far as training him not to be afraid we used desensitizing through repetition. This worked very well for many of his fears. *Fireworks and thunderstorms are not something that happen consistently year round, that is why it is much more difficult to desensitize him to these sounds.* For his aggression we used Alpha Training. He has done wonderful with this training, I am a strong supporter of it because he used to bite and draw blood but after this training he has not bitten again. He is 2 1/2 years old.


.With the thunderstorms you could try CDs you know the one the nature sounds? and i think youtube might help with the fireworks part too. when you play them like my puppy trainer says "act like its a party"


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> You had mentioned in an earlier post that he was afraid of things when you first brought him home and that he hadn't been socialized at all before he left the breeders. Were these things you were concerned about when you first got him, or is it only looking back now that you can put the pieces of the puzzle together and have the "ah ha" moment where you realize he has some nerve issues?


I will explain how this happened. I didn't have a computer and didn't want one when I got Brutus. I was a stay at home mom, with old fashioned thinking. When my daughter started Kindergarten I began going to college full time. There were times when my kids were to arrive home on the school bus and I wouldn't be home for a couple hours (my older kids were 15 and 11 at this time). When I was growing up my parents had an amazing GS named Pearl, she was awesome and so I told my husband, lets get a GS to be with the kids until I get home, to watch the house. Well Brutus does an amazing job watching the house alright. Neighbors who have had their homes broken into always comment how someone would have to be insane to break into my house. And they are correct, Brutus is very protective when it comes to our home and the children. But back to how I came about getting him-without a computer to do any research, nor did researching cross my mind, I ignorantly bought the newspaper on Sunday and there is was AKC GSD Puppies with shots, first vet check, dewormed. I thought great and drove an hour with the hubby and kids and picked up our 7 week old puppy from a barn with hay on it. All the pups scurried in fear when we entered the barn. Brutus was trembling and puked from fear, but I was so ignorant that I just thought the little puppy is nervous. Issue after issue began surfacing from the first night we brought him home. It was then that I bought a computer and began researching and learned how everything about this breeder was wrong. If I ever buy from a breeder again, I will do so with much more education regarding breeders and caution. I am big on rescuing though so I am not sure I would buy from a breeder again at all. That has yet to be decided. My rescue dog has turned out to be great, no phobias-and very respectful toward us. I knew what to look for in a dog thanks to my research though when I picked Oso out from the dogs in the pound.


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## jackinstuff69 (May 4, 2011)

well i am guilty of buying my bella for a byb.duh thought i was being smart.kennel had a ton of german shepherds..she was 10 weeks old when i got her.talked endless on phone and thru emails about her with breeder.lady lied about dogs both being hd certified of no hip dysplasia ..right my baby has her right hip loose looks like when she walks like her leg is just gonna pop out of the socket when she was 4 months old she had so much pain 5 months pain but lesser now 7 months shes jumping and running all over the place as she grew it was more noticable the hip problem.pain last month she has had none im so happy ..i about cried every time she would try to rise or lay down.well i contacted the breeder she changed her story several times.finally did a check on her personally online she had started up a page with the perdigree database on my bella's parents with no hd certification called her out on it.well the generations before them had no hd..come to fine out both dogs were only a year and half old mother and father..shes been pimping out the male for $700 a stud..well anywhooshe sold the mother after that litter was gone.hmmm wonder why hd problems no doubt..thats my bad for not researching better.but i have done my best for bella she is comfortable well fed


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> ....snip... All the pups scurried in fear when we entered the barn. Brutus was trembling and puked from fear, but I was so ignorant that I just thought the little puppy is nervous. Issue after issue began surfacing from the first night we brought him home. It was then that I bought a computer and began researching and learned how everything about this breeder was wrong.


Thanks for explaining it. So it all came down to you just didn't know how to recognize a weak temperament. You aren't alone, it happens all the time to people, it's just a lack of experience or knowledge. And now you know some of the signs to look for.


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

*Byb?*

I bought Gypsy from a back yard breeder and your right i dident know what byb ment for the longest time. My question is whats to happen to all those Back yard bread dogs do we wait until there in a shelter and then rescue them hopefuly before there put down and what about the back yard bread dogs like Gypsy? She's very smart and easy to train. so far no health problems. she seems a little more stocky than most gsd's and hind quarters are higher than her shoulders but dont worry i had her spade as soon as the vet would do it. I agree back yard breeding should not be incouraged but dont hold it against dogs already born. i love my Gypsy Rose.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

gypsyrose said:


> I bought Gypsy from a back yard breeder and your right i dident know what byb ment for the longest time. My question is whats to happen to all those Back yard bread dogs do we wait until there in a shelter and then rescue them hopefuly before there put down and what about the back yard bread dogs like Gypsy? She's very smart and easy to train. so far no health problems. she seems a little more stocky than most gsd's and hind quarters are higher than her shoulders but dont worry i had her spade as soon as the vet would do it. I agree back yard breeding should not be incouraged but dont hold it against dogs already born. i love my Gypsy Rose.


BYB doesn't guarantee a bad dog. Its just pure chance. Good breeding is a science, where hopefully much of the chance is eliminated. Back yard breeding is luck of the draw. Some great dogs can come out of it, but only because chance brought together a good genetic combination. By proper breeding that chance is eliminated by design...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Every GSD in our house comes from SchH titled and KkL dogs. We spend the extra money and time to give ourselves the best chance at the temperament we love and want to work and live with. In the past 20+ years, we have had nothing but dogs from SchH titled and KkL dogs. We have had at least 2 or 3 that were not great with gunfire or fireworks. Sometimes it just happens, but by getting dogs from those types of parents, it is much less likely. I look at it like my brother and me, same parents, pretty similar upbringing (a few years apart) but we have pretty different temperaments and skills, overall we are pretty alike but we obviously are not the same. He is a drummer and I have no musical ability, I have the math brain and he hates math, but we both read at a really fast rate and love super loud rock music. 
I think a dog having problems with loud sounds like gunfire or fireworks can show up even in a pup who comes from generations of dogs who have no problems with it.
My father in law has been raising hunting dogs for decades and these are dogs who live on a quail plantation and start their life around gunfire and spend all of hunting season in the field. Unlike a Schutzhund dog who is tested for it, but is not around it (usually) day in and day out. They still get a percentage of dogs in the hunt kennel who are not field worthy due to issues with gunfire, just happens sometimes. Not very often (they have decades of records on file) but it does.
The way I look at it, I'll pay for the pup from tested and titled parents because my chance of getting a pup with an issue is way less, but there is no such thing as 100%.
Could you give me a pup from a BYB? No way, I'm not that big a risk taker anymore .


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