# Titles and Breeding - Are they important



## Odin24

This is something I was wondering about. There is much discussion on breeding dogs having titles to help determine temperament, stability, and breeding worthiness. What are the titles you would as a breeder look for in a dog you would breed. I have copied some info from the AKC and Schutzhund sites on a couple of basic titles for reference. I personally would prefer a SCH or IPO title but some are ok with Obedience titles only.

Canine Good Citizen (CGC): 
the CGC Program is designed to reward dogs who have good manners at home and in the community.

Rally:
The main objective of rally is to produce dogs that have been trained to behave in the home, in public places, and in the presence of other dogs, in a manner that will reflect positively on the sport of rally at all times and under all conditions.

CD:
Novice Class demonstrates good canine companion skills such as heeling, both with and without a leash, coming when called, standing for a simple physical examination, and staying in both a sit and a down position with a group of dogs.
In the Novice Class, dogs earn an AKC Companion Dog (CD) title after receiving three qualifying scores under two different judges. 

BH:
A passerby will run by the team fairly closely or even cut the team off. The dog must not show aggression or lose composure. Then a bicyclist will overtake the team from behind, passing the team from the side of the dog. The bicyclist will ring his bicycle bell or honk a horn several times in passing.
Other diversions such as train or car sounds will often be used in this exercise. Opening an umbrella above or near the dog is a common test.


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## Shade

Absolutely they're important, they're proof from a outside source that the dog is capable of doing something that interests the potential buyer.

Two great threads, they're both very long but well worth the time:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...49-titles-vs-certifications-working-type.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/251529-titles-m-19.html


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## doggiedad

as a buyer i like knowing the parents are titled and passed all of the
medical test because knowing the parents are titled and sound means
my pup will probably be sound and easy to train as well. plus i like
the fact that i can lay down the snub when in conversation. you
know when someone compliments your dog or ask "where did you
get your dog" you can casually say " Pou Pou is a blah blah dog.
i bought him from tah tah. he's an import." most people won't know
what you're talking about but you can still say it, bragging rights.


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## wolfstraum

Like all absolutes, there is always an exception here and there....

I have done and have had done AKC and IPO/Sch titles on my dogs....I bred one female without a title, and titled her afterwards...she produced the most consistant litter I have had....almost exactly what I was looking for with the exception of depth of pigment....

I have a 4 year old female that I have done alot of work with, she lives with friends who I could not deny her to at 8 months old due to personal circumstances, even though I own her and plan to breed her...they meant well, but did not follow with keeping up training, I had a disabling car accident, and she NEEDS to be bred because of her age....she has been worked by several well respected helpers...on various fields, she is show rated and hip/elbow certifed....I will breed her without titles and still hope to do some down the road as I recently started with a new helper who is very good....

You have to look at the total picture....a breeder consistantly breeding titled dogs who does have the experience to make an exception, or a breeder importing all the breeding stock which changes on a rotating basis, or a breeder whose breeding stock is bought as pups from titled parents but never does anything but breed or a breeder using homegrown stock with no credentials in sight for generations....

The breeder making the exception with an untitled dog may be very preferable to that just importing, breeding and reselling and importing another batch of females


So there are several scenerios where I would consider the exceptional untitled female preferable!

Lee


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## DaniFani

Yes, I know there are people around here that breed and/or buy dogs that don't come from titled lines or temperament tests. To me if a breeder isn't working their dogs in SOME avenue, I just really don't think they can say that they really know what they've got...no offense, just my opinion from experience. I also don't think that the grandparents being titled holds a lot of weight if the parents of the litter aren't. I won't go to a breeder who speaks of wonderful grandparents, but then doesn't work the parents. Plenty of non-breed worthy dogs come from great, titled, parents....if that makes send. 

I also think there is another important piece to the puzzle and that's the knowledge of the buyer. I have seen plenty of working dogs and sports dogs that are nervy and not very solid, but are being titled, worked, and bred. I also know trainers that were paid to title dogs for breeders that should never be bred, but it was their job, so they titled the dog and moved on. As a buyer I would take a knowledgeable friend with me to actually see the parents in action. A title on a website is not enough, for me. i would want to actually watch a video of the dog trialing, or better yet, see the dogs in person, working and training.


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## DaniFani

I also want to add, if I personally know the breeder, have seen them work dogs, and trust their instinct and judgement I may get a pup from a breeder who hasn't yet titled the parents. However, I can only think of one person I know that I would do that with. And even then, I would still be hesitant. But I would have to know them very well and I would want them to be knowledgeable in working dogs and have titled or put working dogs into careers.


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## DaniFani

wolfstraum said:


> Like all absolutes, there is always an exception here and there....
> 
> I have done and have had done AKC and IPO/Sch titles on my dogs....I bred one female without a title, and titled her afterwards...she produced the most consistant litter I have had....almost exactly what I was looking for with the exception of depth of pigment....
> 
> I have a 4 year old female that I have done alot of work with, she lives with friends who I could not deny her to at 8 months old due to personal circumstances, even though I own her and plan to breed her...they meant well, but did not follow with keeping up training, I had a disabling car accident, and she NEEDS to be bred because of her age....she has been worked by several well respected helpers...on various fields, she is show rated and hip/elbow certifed....I will breed her without titles and still hope to do some down the road as I recently started with a new helper who is very good....
> 
> *You have to look at the total picture....a breeder consistantly breeding titled dogs who does have the experience to make an exception, or a breeder importing all the breeding stock which changes on a rotating basis, or a breeder whose breeding stock is bought as pups from titled parents but never does anything but breed or a breeder using homegrown stock with no credentials in sight for generations....*
> 
> The breeder making the exception with an untitled dog may be very preferable to that just importing, breeding and reselling and importing another batch of females
> 
> 
> So there are several scenerios where I would consider the exceptional untitled female preferable!
> 
> Lee


Agree, thanks for putting that more eloquently than I. Lol


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## lhczth

wolfstraum said:


> You have to look at the total picture....a breeder consistantly breeding titled dogs who does have the experience to make an exception, or a breeder importing all the breeding stock which changes on a rotating basis, or a breeder whose breeding stock is bought as pups from titled parents but never does anything but breed or a breeder using homegrown stock with no credentials in sight for generations....
> 
> The breeder making the exception with an untitled dog may be very preferable to that just importing, breeding and reselling and importing another batch of females


Excellent points Lee. Agree.


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## holland

Interesting how things change over time and depends on who is doing it-lol


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## Chicagocanine

Personally I like to see dogs who are working in the "real world", not just titles. A dog can be managed and get titles and not have a great temperament, so I don't feel titles alone necessarily tell that much about the dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with all the above posters

If I have something specific in mind,(and I usually do) I'm going to a breeder who has been there, done that with their dogs. I wouldn't have a problem IF that breeder was knowledgeable (like Lee for example or Lisa who posted here), knew what they were producing to go with an untitled dog. 

It would depend more on the knowledge of the breeder than the dog itself, because with that knowledge, they would know far better than I , what to expect and I would rely on their knowledge . 

Titles aren't the be all end all for me, but I know what I want. If I am looking at titles I'm usually looking at dogs that tend to have working type titles .


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## Merciel

I think I said this in one of the other threads, but what the heck, I'm tired of working on book revisions and don't mind repeating myself (although the rest of you guys might). 

As a puppy buyer, I like to see performance titles on both the dam/sire and the other dogs, if any, in the breeder's program. Ideally, those will be fairly advanced titles (at least some dogs in the program will have something beyond BH/CD/RN), they'll be in a variety of different sports, and there'll be some indication that the breeder is continuing to work and trial dogs up to the present day, rather than resting on past laurels.

If there's a "brag page" or something similar indicating that puppies out of that breeding program are accomplishing things in their new homes, that's a great bonus, although if the breeder's prior litters are still young then its absence is no big deal. It's just nice to see if it's there.

Conformation titles don't mean a whole lot to me. It's just not a priority in what I personally want out of a dog. It's great if they're there, but I don't much care if they aren't.

I don't have the knowledge to evaluate bloodlines and pedigrees. It's not possible for me to look at a pair of dogs and figure out how their progeny are likely to come out. Because I have zero experience or expertise in analyzing bloodlines, I have to use titles as a way of gauging how serious a breeder is and how well they know their dogs.

Additionally, I am downright lousy at evaluating puppies for potential. I can spot really huge, glaring temperamental flaws, but I wouldn't know where to begin telling a Schutzhund prospect from an agility prospect. I need to be able to rely on the breeder to do that for me. Proof that they've worked a bunch of dogs for a long time, ideally in a bunch of different venues, is a strong indicator that a breeder has the ability to do that.

So... I look at the breeder's overall program. It doesn't bother me if _one_ dog is being bred with novice or no titles, as long as I can see proof elsewhere in the program that the breeder has worked other dogs to high levels and knows their stuff, and can explain to me why an exception is being made in that one case.

But personally, yes, I do need to see handler/owner trained and titled dogs _somewhere_ in the lot if I'm going to seriously consider that breeder.


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## volcano

Titles are great, but more important to me is the dogs personality. I have no need for a vicious dog, I want a balanced dog.


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## lhczth

No one has a need for a vicious dog. That is why we work our dogs, test our dogs and title them.


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## wolfstraum

Unfortunately there are people who do breed with dogs who produce weak nerves and temperament....they are people who say there is only 1 or 2 working prospects in a litter and the rest are "pets"....and sell them as such...

One thing I find is very telling about a breeder's goals is that by studying the dogs they have and breed, you should find a "family" connection in the bloodlines....that there is a discernible program in place. That breeding females should be connected to each other through generations and that there is a pattern in the litters produced....

there are a few people here - Lisa Clark, Chris Wild, Chris Kemper and myself whose programs are obvious....generations of dogs who are related, mothers and daughters....even bringing in new dogs, there will be a connection (for example, my Panther - Zibera alten Wingertshaus - is a granddaughter of Xito, Csabre's sire, and is also free of Mink and Fero) so she fits into my program....she was bought for expressly using to line breed on Xito with a Csabre son down the road.

When you see a breeder with lots of imported females, producing litters nearly every heat, and producing 100s of puppies - research and see what is actually being titled - IPO, Agility, Flyball, Obedience.....when there are hundreds of pups produced, and only a few dozen doing this....chances are the breeder is more concerned with cash flow than quality and placement....when you can find that most litters the breeder has produced is producing dogs with credentials - IPO, SAR, LE, Agility etc....then if they use an occasional non titled dog, chances are they will be able to explain their reasoning and what that pair brings to the table.

Numbers do not lie....look at the big picture....

Lee


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## holland

If that was directed towards me I am not looking for a GSD...I wonder sometimes though why some breeders spend so much time saying look at me I am good-I don't breed just pets yet when it suits their agenda they breed pets...and they title their dogs so they are more knowledgeable and therefore better breeders...yet when it suits them they breed without titles-but the other breeder who does that is bad...personally I think that is hypocritical


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## Merciel

holland said:


> I wonder sometimes though why some breeders spend so much time saying look at me I am good-I don't breed just pets yet when it suits their agenda they breed pets...and they title their dogs so they are more knowledgeable and therefore better breeders...yet when it suits them they breed without titles-but the other breeder who does that is bad...personally I think that is hypocritical


I think the posts in this thread have done a pretty good job of explaining the distinctions.

Again, I'm not a breeder; I can only talk about things from the puppy buyer's point of view. But to me, there's a HUGE difference between (purely hypothetical) Breeder A, who has titled half a dozen dogs to championships and advanced titles in three different sports, and who's placed 10 puppies in performance/working homes where they too are achieving titles/certifications, and (also purely hypothetical) Breeder B, who has never titled a dog beyond one CGC out of four dogs in the breeding program and whose puppies have no track record in work or sport.

If Breeder A chooses to breed Untitled Dog X because she thinks that dog has a whole lot of potential, comes from good bloodlines, and just hasn't been titled because of an injury that temporarily sidelined the dog's sport career for eight months, that to me would be a whole different thing from Breeder B choosing to breed Untitled Dog Y because "eh, who needs titles, they don't really prove anything anyway."

I might buy a puppy out of Untitled Dog X. I wouldn't even _think_ about Untitled Dog Y.


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## Josie/Zeus

As a Buyer, I look for the breeder's overall stock. A perfect example is the Breeder I chose, I see her dogs doing herding work, schutzhund, other sports and some are happily settled as pets. 

I wasn't sure what was I going to do with my puppy, I decided to do PSA and he did fine being a showline and all  albeit briefly but still, he did the job I set him out to do, he got his pdc (yeah!). 

He is confident yet friendly. I have had no problem with him going to new places, meeting new people/dogs/kids. He is a very neutral calm dog, just what I envisioned my GSD should be.


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## Markobytes

Odin24 what has not been mentioned is the German standard for breeding dogs, the breed survey. A system has been in place since the conception of the German Shepherd Dog and is still with us today. If you want to breed a pair of dogs you have to bring them first to a Koermeister who scrutinizes every aspect of the dog, it's temperament, it's structure, every tooth has to be in place, it's working ability, it's structure in motion. Before the dog is brought to this judge it has to first have a show tittle, a working tittle, pass a 12 mile endurance test if it does not have a herding tittle, have passing hip and elbow certifications, have it's DNA tested to make sure there are no out crosses. Only after passing all this are each parent given a breed survey lasting two years before the two years is up the dog has to be brought to a Koermeister and has to pass another breed survey to be given a lifetime breed survey. Dogs that go through this have the tittle designation KKL after their name. This system is in place here in the US and is open to dogs of every line, both working and show. Schutzhund now called IPO was developed as part of this system meant to test the breed worthiness and to ensure that the basic abilities would be passed on to the offspring. The breeders that go through this are having an objective third party certifying their dogs and if their dogs do not measure up to every one of these standards they do not use them in their breeding programs. If a breeder does not do this because it is too hard you have to be the judge whether they know what they are doing. They breed survey system does not guarantee the breeder knows what they are doing. It is almost necessary for the breeder to also be a trainer so as to know the temperament that they are creating and to give guidance to those that buy their puppies. Backyard breeders will also have a continuous line of same parentage because it is easy and they are nostalgic and can not objectively evaluate their dogs. New blood should be a part of every good breeding program. The vast majority of buyers are for pets and a breeder should not be punished for producing dogs that can be pets as well as for other purposes. Not every breeder sees the need to put the titles earned by their clients on their website.


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## JakodaCD OA

honestly I don't recall seeing any breeder here who has ever said "look at me I am good" nor have I ever seen one say "I don't breed pets".

I will say it again, while I do "like" to see titled dogs, it's not the be all end all for me.

For example, if I were going to someone like Lee, (and others just using her hope she doesn't mind tho I only know her from this forum, for years I might add, and see / read her accomplishments and the wealth of knowledge she imparts here , I would have no problem taking a puppy out of untitled parents from her. I would "trust" her judgement. There are many other breeders here that I would do the same.

Why would I pass up the above and go for someone I know 'nada' about, except that they breed dogs? Or someone who,,as was said, imports over and over, breeds indiscriminately just to make a buck?

Probably doesn't make sense, but it rather does to me


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## Chip Blasiole

Those titles are a start for you to become motivated to learn how to train a dog and learn about dog's drives, etc.. Ultimately, they mean very little in terms of knowing how to select a dog for breeding. That is way the breed is going to **** in a handbasket.


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## wolfstraum

That is because there are too many people who breed because of money and too many who think their dog should be bred because they managed to get it through a title against all odds....

I work with a guy who does Mondio and has Mali's - his Mali is the nicest one I have ever been around....every single time I work with him, he tells me how he sees so many bad nerved GSDs whose owners are doing schutzhund....imported big money ones too.... 

Lee


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## volcano

When I go to the clubs, teh titled dogs are barking at me viciously if I come within 20 feet of their car. One dog is shutz 3, wont do out, the guy was walking it and it lunged at another dog that was sitting behind its car. He scolded the guy and said that he must avoid situations like that and that his dog got lunged at by a neighbors dog and couldnt walk past it for years without freaking out. This dog is kkl1 and supposedly had a judge say its completely clear in the head during bitework.- I dont want that. If my dog gets lunged at she doesnt bark back and its a non event.


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## cliffson1

Chip is right, said the same thing for years on this forum....as time goes on I am only more sure.


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## carmspack

for posterity german shepherd dog


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## vomlittlehaus

I'm in!


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## Sabis mom

Makobytes said:


> The vast majority of buyers are for pets and a breeder should not be punished for producing dogs that can be pets as well as for other purposes. Not every breeder sees the need to put the titles earned by their clients on their website.


Except that the German Shepherd is supposed to be able to be both at once.

Obviously not all dogs will thrive in all situations, but this breed is supposed to be the whole package. The herder, the hunter, the guardian and the nanny all rolled into one. If all the focus is on only one aspect of the breed, we lose out on the rest. 

Personally I want to see a breeder focusing on dogs that can be pets as well as working dogs. And also personally, while I have the utmost respect for the work that goes into training and titling, there is a vast difference between a_ working_ dog and a dog that competes in sports.


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## lesslis

I'm so fortunate. I have a breeder that looks at each dog each buyer and works toward titles. Here's the kicker. Would be willing to hop in the car with me and help pick out the perfect dog from a GSD rescue. BFF's nope but I trust her ability to read the dog in front of her.


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## vomlittlehaus

Sabis mom, that is what I strive for in my breeding program. To have great pets first, second, able to compete in a sport or work for a living. I dont want high drives in my dogs. I actually got a nice pup in this litter that is rather laid back and eager to learn. Very quick study. But I also have a high drive pup in the litter that would do well in Schutzhund/IPO. I would expect a breeder to put titles on their breeding stock, but dont expect all the progeny to have titles. I would like to see testimonials from owners of 'just pets' to elaborate on how the dog is in the family/house setting. How does the dog handle/adjust to new situations, family gatherings, etc. You cant keep going in sports/competition/work for the life of the dog. It needs to be able to retire and settle into the family unit without driving the family crazy because its not 'working'.


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## onyx'girl

lesslis said:


> I'm so fortunate. I have a breeder that looks at each dog each buyer and works toward titles. Here's the kicker. Would be willing to hop in the car with me and help pick out the perfect dog from a GSD rescue. BFF's nope but I trust her ability to read the dog in front of her.


:thumbup:


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## Blitzkrieg1

dawnandjr said:


> Sabis mom, that is what I strive for in my breeding program. To have great pets first, second, able to compete in a sport or work for a living. I dont want high drives in my dogs. I actually got a nice pup in this litter that is rather laid back and eager to learn. Very quick study. But I also have a high drive pup in the litter that would do well in Schutzhund/IPO. I would expect a breeder to put titles on their breeding stock, but dont expect all the progeny to have titles. I would like to see testimonials from owners of 'just pets' to elaborate on how the dog is in the family/house setting. How does the dog handle/adjust to new situations, family gatherings, etc. You cant keep going in sports/competition/work for the life of the dog. It needs to be able to retire and settle into the family unit without driving the family crazy because its not 'working'.


So you are breeding pointy eared labs? Slice it anyway you like if your goal is not a dog with workable drive and temperment FIRST your not doing anything but adding to the vast pool of useless GSDs that are out there. I get it though its very easy to breed pets. The whole litter is just awesome and there is no pressure to prove anything with your stock or progeny. People buy from you and tell you their dog is just the greatest as they dont know any better. Its an easy gig anyone with two dogs and some space can do it.

As for your high drive comment. I and numerous others on here own high drive dogs. Do you think we do sport every day? What do you think the dogs do when they arent on the field? Can Joe Blow handle these types of dogs without some mentorship and training? Probably not but who cares? If you arent willing to put in a bit of work and some time then this just is not the breed for you.


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## martemchik

The problem with stating “titles don’t matter” is that people get judged on how “responsible” the program is by titles, or in some cases, the age and perceived knowledge of the breeder. Titles show a dedication to the breed, like nothing else truly can. So, let’s assume titles don’t matter…

I decide I want to start breeding. I do some research, buy some good dogs with some decent pedigrees, and throw them together. Someone comes on this forum, asks about me, I get ripped apart because no one knows who I am, my dogs haven’t proven anything, blah blah blah.

Someone that has been breeding for decades does the same thing…claim to have placed some dogs into K9 programs or service dogs, everyone is happy?

The problem with saying sport/titles aren’t important, is that you can’t get the experience to understand how this breed is supposed to be without them. How do you expect a person to learn the ins and outs of this breed, without working dogs and then breeding them? Is a dog a decade placed in the local police department enough “success” to claim that the 3 or 4 litters a year that are bred are solid?

Unfortunately, the average dog buyer/owner isn’t going to be putting in the work to research how a GSD is supposed to act, and according to these types of threads, there is no way to get that knowledge by reading books/websites or even watching dogs for months or years. It feels like at a certain level, decades of experience are necessary in order to make statements about the breed or even think about breeding dogs…and if that’s the expectation, well, sorry…it’s just not going to happen.

At the end of the day…there are so few opportunities to place dogs in ACTUAL working roles, it would be basically impossible for a breeder to consistently do this IMO and to be known enough for it. I don’t see how a breeder can consistently, as in on a yearly basis, have the opportunities to place some of their dogs in those roles in order to prove that their dogs are “true” working dogs. This is why sport/IPO has substituted for that…and the majority of breeders don’t even do that.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> The problem with stating “titles don’t matter” is that people get judged on how “responsible” the program is by titles, or in some cases, the age and perceived knowledge of the breeder. Titles show a dedication to the breed, like nothing else truly can. So, let’s assume titles don’t matter…
> 
> I decide I want to start breeding. I do some research, buy some good dogs with some decent pedigrees, and throw them together. Someone comes on this forum, asks about me, I get ripped apart because no one knows who I am, my dogs haven’t proven anything, blah blah blah.
> 
> Someone that has been breeding for decades does the same thing…claim to have placed some dogs into K9 programs or service dogs, everyone is happy?
> 
> The problem with saying sport/titles aren’t important, is that you can’t get the experience to understand how this breed is supposed to be without them. How do you expect a person to learn the ins and outs of this breed, without working dogs and then breeding them? Is a dog a decade placed in the local police department enough “success” to claim that the 3 or 4 litters a year that are bred are solid?
> 
> Unfortunately, the average dog buyer/owner isn’t going to be putting in the work to research how a GSD is supposed to act, and according to these types of threads, there is no way to get that knowledge by reading books/websites or even watching dogs for months or years. It feels like at a certain level, decades of experience are necessary in order to make statements about the breed or even think about breeding dogs…and if that’s the expectation, well, sorry…it’s just not going to happen.
> 
> At the end of the day…there are so few opportunities to place dogs in ACTUAL working roles, it would be basically impossible for a breeder to consistently do this IMO and to be known enough for it. I don’t see how a breeder can consistently, as in on a yearly basis, have the opportunities to place some of their dogs in those roles in order to prove that their dogs are “true” working dogs. This is why sport/IPO has substituted for that…and the majority of breeders don’t even do that.


I believe the majority of sportwaffen dogs go to actual work.


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## Blitzkrieg1

hunterisgreat said:


> I believe the majority of sportwaffen dogs go to actual work.


 
Also all titled.


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Also all titled.


If he finds a dog he likes after working him, he's found a dog he likes... titles or no. lol. Fyke is IPO1 you know


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I believe the majority of sportwaffen dogs go to actual work.


I don't doubt there are breeders that have success doing that...

But you're expecting them to be able to produce enough dogs to supply the demand that currently exists? Or are we just going to cut off the supply to the "pet market" and let the prices readjust to 5 figures for an 8 week old puppy?

And here's a quote from his website, "I became involved in breeding because it upset me to see so many people breeding for all the wrong reasons. I saw *untitled* dogs with no drives and no health screens reproducing and watering down the genetics of these beautiful animals." So clearly...he believes breeding stock needs to be titled. He also just does 1 or 2 litters a year.

The point of my post was also, how does someone achieve the level of recognition or "acceptance" without titling/trialing dogs in sport in today's world? There is no way, a police department, SAR team, service dog program, would ever look at a dog from a breeding without seeing that the breeder has had success in that other venue. It's also about, how does a buyer trust a breeder without seeing that kind of dedication to the breed? Without knowing someone on a pretty personal level, why would I ever believe them that they're placing dogs in police departments and in actual working roles?


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## Blitzkrieg1

hunterisgreat said:


> If he finds a dog he likes after working him, he's found a dog he likes... titles or no. lol. Fyke is IPO1 you know


 
Thats still a title!


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> I don't doubt there are breeders that have success doing that...
> 
> But you're expecting them to be able to produce enough dogs to supply the demand that currently exists? Or are we just going to cut off the supply to the "pet market" and let the prices readjust to 5 figures for an 8 week old puppy?
> 
> And here's a quote from his website, "I became involved in breeding because it upset me to see so many people breeding for all the wrong reasons. I saw *untitled* dogs with no drives and no health screens reproducing and watering down the genetics of these beautiful animals." So clearly...he believes breeding stock needs to be titled. He also just does 1 or 2 litters a year.
> 
> The point of my post was also, how does someone achieve the level of recognition or "acceptance" without titling/trialing dogs in sport in today's world? There is no way, a police department, SAR team, service dog program, would ever look at a dog from a breeding without seeing that the breeder has had success in that other venue.


Nate primarily serves the police/military community now *I believe*. I'm sure an 8 week working prospect isn't 5 figures lol.


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> Nate primarily serves the police/military community now *I believe*. I'm sure an 8 week working prospect isn't 5 figures lol.


But...if we expected all breeders to be at his level...to have the contacts to place those dogs in those roles...the amount of dogs that the sport/titling breeders would have available for the sport/pet market would greatly decrease thus leading to an increase in cost due to a decrease in supply.

Just saying, if the line changed from "look for a breeder with IPO1" to "look for a breeder that's placing 50% of puppies into working roles" we'd be greatly limited in how many breeders could actually do that. And even if all breeders brought their standards up to that...the military/police/service industry, doesn't need that many dogs, so many breeders just wouldn't get the opportunity to even place those dogs in working roles and therefore be "unacceptable."

All highly hypothetical...lol.


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## hunterisgreat

That's sound logic. They should just make a new sport called schutzhund, much tougher than IPO, truly test of the dog not the handling or training skill. It should be pass or fail. No points. No championships. Just a breed worthiness test.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I thought he was mainly selling his litters to sport homes, all the males seem to be sold before they hit the ground.. Im sure he keeps one or two back for development..


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> That's sound logic. They should just make a new sport called schutzhund, much tougher than IPO, truly test of the dog not the handling or training skill. It should be pass or fail. No points. No championships. Just a breed worthiness test.


This is way above my pay grade.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I thought he was mainly selling his litters to sport homes, all the males seem to be sold before they hit the ground.. Im sure he keeps one or two back for development..


I know out of Jägers litter I think he said there were some police service dogs, a SAR dog, jäger and his brother bello who I think was retained at his club but not Nates dog

Yes his dogs go fast. The males were all gone instantly on that last litter announced weds lol. I put a deposit on jäger long before the puppies hit the ground


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> This is way above my pay grade.


I guess something similar to what Schutzhund was originally designed for. With a dash of knpv


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## martemchik

Here is the pedigree of my male... Rooney V 

Here is the pedigree of my female...
Gretchen-Tulus vom Kellnerhof

Take a wild guess at which one has a sibling that is currently on an active SAR team?

Based on the pedigrees...I'm sure most of you can guess what kind of breeder each dog came from. But if titles weren't important, and working was more important, which one would be more "respected"?


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## DaniFani

dawnandjr said:


> Sabis mom, that is what I strive for in my breeding program. To have great pets first, second, able to compete in a sport or work for a living. I dont want high drives in my dogs. I actually got a nice pup in this litter that is rather laid back and eager to learn. Very quick study. But I also have a high drive pup in the litter that would do well in Schutzhund/IPO. I would expect a breeder to put titles on their breeding stock, but dont expect all the progeny to have titles. *I would like to see testimonials from owners of 'just pets' to elaborate on how the dog is in the family/house setting.* How does the dog handle/adjust to new situations, family gatherings, etc. You cant keep going in sports/competition/work for the life of the dog. It needs to be able to retire and settle into the family unit without driving the family crazy because its not 'working'.


To the part in bold. I agree that some kind of testimonial is a really good thing, however...My first gsd (deceased for medical and genetic issues), was from a byb. His breeder had a "brag page" on her website with testimonials. I had written her an email when he was a few months old with pics of him with our family. As soon as I sent her updates on his health, she immediately took my testimonial down, that day. After an updated email that he wasn't getting better, she never contacted me again.

The rest is just in general, not specifically to you, dawn.

This is where trusting your breeder comes into play, but it's also hard for the "public" to determine what's true and what's not. That's why a breeder who is working their dogs, in the muck of the training, having to train and deal with the genetics they are producing (by working them in stressful/trying venues or jobs doing what the breed was meant to do), is preferred and recommended by me to anyone I know...of any breed they are looking at.

There's a breeder, I believe on the east coast, with an awesome quote on their page. It's something like, "we know what we breed because we work what we breed." I'm not just talking about some obedience titles, I'm talking titles/work that involves really exposing the dog's nerve, hardness, drives (defense/fight/hunt etc). 

If the breeder has never really been heavily involved in anything that does this, I just don't see how they can tell if a puppy has the "drive" for sport/work....or is just a high energy (sometimes neurotic) puppy. 

So, my current opinion is, it seems to be more important what the BREEDER is doing and where they got their knowledge, experience, and what kind of success they've had. A breeder who has never really gotten into training, but breeds "for the love of breeding and the pet GSD," has never worked or titled a dog, and just buys them titled or has someone else title them or work them, isn't someone I *personally* would go to. 

Just mho about what I (a buyer) look at and why. I'm sure Jack's Dad will come on saying how unless you're a breeder you should not have an opinion here lol...but like it or not, the buyers set the market. So here's my "buyers opinion" and recommendation to other "buyers." Make sure your breeder knows what the heck they are doing, via experience (they've actually worked their breed of choice in what it's meant to do via sport or training dogs for real life application..military, LE, etc), knowledge (they know about pedigrees, lines, what certain lines are producing, etc), and most important *success* in venues and/or work that properly test all aspects of the breed (giving them the knowledge to really look at the dog in front of them). This usually leads to breeders working their dogs, so their breeding stock have titles.

I personally would first look for titles, that rules out a bunch...then I look at the breeder (are they working their dogs, how long have they been working dogs, are they placing dogs in "real life" work, etc). Then we go from there. Titles are kind of the baseline I would start at, then dig further. Never stop at titles, but I also would not completely put out of mind someone who isn't titling, but is "known" for producing dogs that are out their working in the real world. It just seems that *most of those breeders are also working/titling their dogs.


----------



## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Here is the pedigree of my male... Rooney V
> 
> Here is the pedigree of my female...
> Gretchen-Tulus vom Kellnerhof
> 
> Take a wild guess at which one has a sibling that is currently on an active SAR team?
> 
> Based on the pedigrees...I'm sure most of you can guess what kind of breeder each dog came from. But if titles weren't important, and working was more important, which one would be more "respected"?


Don't get me wrong, titles are important. Just not enough to go on for a breeding. There are dogs that are breed worthy on (once health tested) that have just been pets... Any IPO3 "monsters" that shouldn't be. Great training can make an ok dog look amazing. Bad/no training can make an amazing dog look like a crapper. And IPO becomes a weaker metric as time goes on.


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## Packen

Yes, titles are important especially the 3 level. It tells you the dog has what it takes to make it to the top. Once that portion is covered then you can decide if you want a certain a certain dog from a certain breeding or not. 

Without top titles you know the breeder took a shortcut, why the shortcut? maybe the dog did not have what it takes to achieve the top level! Well duh  The excuses start here and there is not end to them.


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## martemchik

Packen said:


> Yes, titles are important especially the 3 level. It tells you the dog has what it takes to make it to the top. Once that portion is covered then you can decide if you want a certain a certain dog from a certain breeding or not.
> 
> Without top titles you know the breeder took a shortcut, why the shortcut? maybe the dog did not have what it takes to achieve the top level! Well duh  The excuses start here and there is not end to them.


That's my thing...I hate the "I know this dog could do it, I see it out on the training field" reason.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Here is the pedigree of my female...
> Gretchen-Tulus vom Kellnerhof


*gasp* You got a dog whose sire only has a BH?!


Kidding, kidding. Looks like a fun pup. I had been wondering about this mystery female you'd mentioned a couple of times, glad to see her pedigree.


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## martemchik

Lol...she's my "rescue."


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## Sabis mom

So what of the dogs that come from nowhere, have no known pedigree and go to work every day. The ones that stay healthy and sound in spite of straining to the limit every day. The ones who act as pillows for the kids until it's time to put on their gear, the ones who supervise the chickens in between shifts. The ones who romp about for family bbq's until a call comes in.

Spend a little while with a partner with 4 legs, when your only backup is the other end of the leash, when every call for help is answered by a furry guardian. 
In the darkest hours of the night, when there is no one else coming. When your partner is the only thing standing between you and them.

Do I care if my dog is an approved color, or has letters behind her name? No I care that she lives up to an ideal set in place long before her or I were born. I care that she will display the courage, drive, intelligence and loyalty to do what she must. I care that she will ensure that come the dawn we are both still standing. 

The question was are titles and breeding important? 
The answer- No. The dog is.


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## lesslis

Sabis, has a buyer its important to me that the dogs in the line I buy from are titled. Lets me know the breeder knows the dogs can read each dog and understands strengths and weaknesses in the dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sabis mom said:


> So what of the dogs that come from nowhere, have no known pedigree and go to work every day. The ones that stay healthy and sound in spite of straining to the limit every day. The ones who act as pillows for the kids until it's time to put on their gear, the ones who supervise the chickens in between shifts. The ones who romp about for family bbq's until a call comes in.
> 
> Spend a little while with a partner with 4 legs, when your only backup is the other end of the leash, when every call for help is answered by a furry guardian.
> In the darkest hours of the night, when there is no one else coming. When your partner is the only thing standing between you and them.
> 
> Do I care if my dog is an approved color, or has letters behind her name? No I care that she lives up to an ideal set in place long before her or I were born. I care that she will display the courage, drive, intelligence and loyalty to do what she must. I care that she will ensure that come the dawn we are both still standing.
> 
> The question was are titles and breeding important?
> The answer- No. The dog is.


 
You realize most LE dogs have pedigrees and come from sport lines, they just tend to get dumped when they arrive with the dog. The end user may not care about where the dog came from and who is behind him. But they arent the ones producing the next generation of working dogs that "they" end up using.


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## martemchik

Sabis, I don’t think anyone here would argue with you about the fact that a working K9 deserves to be bred because it has shown that it has the temperament to do the work without the title. The problem is when a breeder claims to be able to look at an untitled dog in training and say that they see it would be capable of the work and therefore there’s no reason to title. A trial is way different than training, and the level of trial (club, regional, national, ect) is also very different. So a dog that gets 285 points at a club trial, then gets 260 at a regional, tells you something.

At the same time…how many breeders out there actually have experience with TRUE working dogs. How many have trained/worked with their own K9s? Or are military dog handlers. Or are shepherds. Very very few. So for any breeder to claim that they can tell the dog is capable of this or that without actually ever working a dog in that venue is kind of a joke right?

I think that’s where the titles come in. They show that the breeder did take time to figure out something about the dog, and didn’t just make assumptions off of things seen in training. Unfortunately, it’s extremely easy to be biased about your own dogs as well, and so I wouldn’t really trust people to be able to look at their own dogs objectively. That’s where a trial comes in…an unbiased, objective critique of the work the dog shows on that day. No excuses…no memories of what happened the day before in training that would cloud an objective opinion.

That’s been my point…not all breeders have the opportunity to place their dogs in real venues, and even less people can claim to have worked their dogs in real venues. If that’s the requirement we want to set for breeding w/o titles…I’m perfectly happy with it: either you’ve worked as a working handler, or you title.


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## björn

It´s not the titles and points, it´s the quality of the dog that is used for breeding and how well they produce that makes a breeder sucessfull. What will a SCH title tell the breeder anyway, is a SCH3 dog better than a SCH1, is a dog with higher points the better one, or what titles should be minimum anyway if a certain title is all that takes as proof the dog is good. If you needed a really good dog to get a certain title then it would mean something.


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## carmspack

martemchik said 
" I don’t think anyone here would argue with you about the fact that a working K9 deserves to be bred because it has shown that it has the temperament to do the work without the title"

Okay , I will step up and argue that just because it is a working k9 does NOT mean that it deserves to be bred. 
There are many other things which require some knowledge of pedigrees and tracking the generations backwards , sideways and forward . 
"This" dog may work -- but that does not mean he can produce, and it is producers that we seek. They tend to have pedigree depth with a nod to replication of same or similar characteristics. 
The issue is not whether "this" dog has titles , the issue being argued is was it important that his sire and dam have titles.

No. But it is important that there be a consistent production of dogs that have fulfilled what ever your end goal is . If it is specialty dogs for guide , then let there be a strong statistic for dogs evaluated and graduated/certified in that endeavour. If it be working service dogs , the same applies.

go back and refer to the Soares article.


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## carmspack

so what title would tell me that the dog could do this work -- specialized avalanche SAR where the dog has to be flown to location, possibly strapped onto his handler , or carried in a kit , and the dropped from an elevation because all roads are impassable?

would the breeder have to personally do this ? or is there some fundamental base to understanding the core temperament and potential or limitation of the dog ?

do I need to personally conduct SWAT entries ? and what title would give you a clue whether this is within the realm .


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## misslesleedavis1

SARMEDEDIS
Search and rescue most epic dog ever..drop in styles.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cltyus

Lots of people recommend crooked creek ranch, and I like their program, but I don't think all of her dogs are titles...I may be wrong. She does have dogs doing sports and k9 work


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## onyx'girl

Does CCR even train or title their dogs?


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## lhczth

*Let's please keep this a generalized discussion and leave out specific breeders and their breeding programs.

Thank you,

ADMIN. *


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## cltyus

Whoops sorry, just saying that she produces great dogs, they are great family pets, and I've seen articles and videos of them doing work and sports...wasn't saying anything negative about it....I'm a fan!


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## Packen

martemchik said:


> That's my thing...I hate the "I know this dog could do it, I see it out on the training field" reason.


Bingo! Just wait and see the excuses get better n better! You can never reason with a telemarketer, same applies here. In the end you just fold and exclaim, "It's a free country do/breed what you want" just stop trying to rationalize the sales pitch


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> That's my thing...I hate the "I know this dog could do it, I see it out on the training field" reason.


Well that's where the skill of the person with the opinion lies


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## Sabis mom

Let me clarify. 

A great dog is a great dog, regardless of pedigree.

I am not a breeder, I will never be a breeder. But when I am looking at breeders I want to see MUCH more then just bite sports, because this is the ultimate all around dog. I like breeders who push the limits and step outside the box.
Not all working dogs should be bred, but working instead of competing should not be held against a dog. And at the end of the day, these dogs will be companions if not pets so if they cannot cope with that what's the point?
No I am not talking about watering down the breed. They are supposed to be an everything dog, that includes companion. To many breeders focus too much on the drive and take away that essential thing that IS the German Shepherd.


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## cliffson1

Two of the last three dogs I have gotten, had sires that were Sch1.....the minimum you can get in IPO. I'm not sure if that meant that the owners/breeders were lazy, ill informed, or full of excuses, but I know that both litters had multiple dogs that were high working/sport caliber and good family dogs to boot. I kinda agree with Bjorn's take. 
Most PD departments that acquire dogs that I am aware of, and I'm talking over thirty depts I know personally, don't have a clue about the breeders the dogs come from.


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## Jax08

Sabis mom said:


> Let me clarify.
> 
> A great dog is a great dog, regardless of pedigree.
> 
> I am not a breeder, I will never be a breeder. But when I am looking at breeders I want to see MUCH more then just bite sports, because this is the ultimate all around dog. I like breeders who push the limits and step outside the box.
> Not all working dogs should be bred, but working instead of competing should not be held against a dog. And at the end of the day, these dogs will be companions if not pets so if they cannot cope with that what's the point?
> No I am not talking about watering down the breed. They are supposed to be an everything dog, that includes companion. To many breeders focus too much on the drive and take away that essential thing that IS the German Shepherd.


Agreed. I do think titles are important. I think they are part of the whole picture. However, there are people like Cliff, who has spent a good majority of his life around dogs, that can read the dog and know the potential. 99% of us can not do that. So we use titles as a way to help judge the dogs potential.

When I was looking for a breeder, I wanted diversity. What are the dogs doing? I liked a couple of different breeders but just happened to really like a particular breeding that was a repeat. Within this breeding there were dogs in all venues (SAR, guide, IPO, pets). 

I think people get hung up on the titles and forget to look at the whole dog.


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## carmspack

without title however does not mean that the dogs , progeny , entire program is without evaluation as proof that the goals are validated and achieved.


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## Liesje

I get the dog that makes sense for my goals, no secret formula. If I want a dog for IPO, I get a dog from two IPO3 parents and a long line of IPO titled dogs. If I want a dog for agility, I get a dog from lines that do agility and from a breeder that understands what I want and doesn't just advertise dogs "for agility" because they think any healthy dog with medium or better drive is going to automatically be successful at agility. I've met more IPO3 dogs that you couldn't pay me to own than ones that have interested me as far as owning and training a dog like that or from their breeding. The last three GSDs I've own (purchased for myself, not my fosters or dogs I'm working for someone else) have all three been different lines, different breeding, different purpose, different training.


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## Packen

Liesje said:


> I get the dog that makes sense for my goals, no secret formula. If I want a dog for IPO, I get a dog from two IPO3 parents and a long line of IPO titled dogs. If I want a dog for agility, I get a dog from lines that do agility and from a breeder that understands what I want and doesn't just advertise dogs "for agility" because they think any healthy dog with medium or better drive is going to automatically be successful at agility. I've met more IPO3 dogs that you couldn't pay me to own than ones that have interested me as far as owning and training a dog like that or from their breeding. The last three GSDs I've own (purchased for myself, not my fosters or dogs I'm working for someone else) have all three been different lines, different breeding, different purpose, different training.


LOL, no SL bashing allowed.


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## hunterisgreat

Packen said:


> Yes, titles are important especially the 3 level. It tells you the dog has what it takes to make it to the top. Once that portion is covered then you can decide if you want a certain a certain dog from a certain breeding or not.
> 
> Without top titles you know the breeder took a shortcut, why the shortcut? maybe the dog did not have what it takes to achieve the top level! Well duh  The excuses start here and there is not end to them.


If properly judged, IPO 1 should (and is meant to) tell you the dog is a worthy prospect for breeding. Depending on what is needed in a specific pairing, a personal eval by the breeder should decide to move forward or not


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## Packen

hunterisgreat said:


> If properly judged, IPO 1 should (and is meant to) tell you the dog is a worthy prospect for breeding. Depending on what is needed in a specific pairing, a personal eval by the breeder should decide to move forward or not


Agree to disagree. Most IPO1's are given and only a very small percentage of IPO1 dogs can progress to 3. I find the 3 HOT criteria to be a minimum for selecting breedings. Not something I care to compromise on based on someone's written story or a training video. No need to compromise when there are pairings that meet my criteria.


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## lhczth

Why do you believe it so hard to make the 3? There is virtually no difference between the 2 and the 3 now and they only involve a bit more obedience and a longer track than the 1. Personally I would rather see more dogs with the AWD1 or AWD2 over an IPO3.


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## björn

Just because a dog isn´t titled it doesn´t mean it´s not in training or evaluated, or else it wouldn´t be of much use for a breeder who place many dog in service for example. Just like a SCH3 dog wouldn´t be of much use if it lacks the things you seek. Some popular studs has only SCH1 but ar still used by many, even IPO worldchampions, and I suppose they wouldn´t care if it had the title or not either.


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## carmspack

Lisa what is the AWD . I am not familiar with the requirements. By the way , Vala , very nice , love seeing the FH2 .


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## hunterisgreat

Packen said:


> Agree to disagree. Most IPO1's are given and only a very small percentage of IPO1 dogs can progress to 3. I find the 3 HOT criteria to be a minimum for selecting breedings. Not something I care to compromise on based on someone's written story or a training video. No need to compromise when there are pairings that meet my criteria.


You miss the part about "a personal eval by the breeder"?

Any dog able to get a 1, barring injury or other external constraints, can get a 3 lol


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## bill

WWW. americanworkingdog.com

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## lhczth

Carmen, they are titles developed by the American Working Dog Federation (AWDF). The AWD1 is just the old SchH1 with the attack out of the blind and the scored ratings for courage/hardness and fighting drive (not just pronounced, sufficient, etc). The AWD2 actually has a second helper doing an attack out of the blind while the dog is doing a transport of the first helper and then both helpers must be taken to the judge. The AWD3 is basically the old SchH3 except the articles on the track can be any type of object.

American Working Dog Federation Home Page

About the American Working Dog Federation

http://www.awdf.net/02-24-08AWDF TRIAL RULES.pdf


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## lhczth

Thank you, Carmen. She is a super tracking dog. I'll eventually do Deja's too. Tracking has become my favorite phase.


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## onyx'girl

Liesje said:


> I get the dog that makes sense for my goals, no secret formula. If I want a dog for IPO, I get a dog from two IPO3 parents and a long line of IPO titled dogs. If I want a dog for agility, I get a dog from lines that do agility and from a breeder that understands what I want and doesn't just advertise dogs "for agility" because they think any healthy dog with medium or better drive is going to automatically be successful at agility. I've met more IPO3 dogs that you couldn't pay me to own than ones that have interested me as far as owning and training a dog like that or from their breeding. The last three GSDs I've own (purchased for myself, not my fosters or dogs I'm working for someone else) have all three been different lines, different breeding, different purpose, different training.


Shouldn't the GSD be a versatile dog that can excel in most venues? I would hope most breeders goals are for versatility, and not so much for a certain sport venue.
Your Nikon shows himself to be such a dog, he can do what is asked in whatever you have introduced to him.


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## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> Shouldn't the GSD be a versatile dog that can excel in most venues? I would hope most breeders goals are for versatility, and not so much for a certain sport venue.
> Your Nikon shows himself to be such a dog, he can do what is asked in whatever you have introduced to him.


Nate Harves wrote a great article on that topic.

Sportwaffen K9


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## Liesje

onyx'girl said:


> Shouldn't the GSD be a versatile dog that can excel in most venues? I would hope most breeders goals are for versatility, and not so much for a certain sport venue.
> Your Nikon shows himself to be such a dog, he can do what is asked in whatever you have introduced to him.


*I* think they should, but if someone else thinks agility is dumb and only wants to do herding, I won't stop them. Most of my dogs cross-train in many sports but tend to have one or two that is really their thing. A lot of people get GSDs and only ever consider IPO titles or training. I would question when someone insists their dog is versatile and doesn't have any training or titles to prove it, but I won't assume the dog couldn't be. People just need to put up or shut up, stop talking up their dogs and let the dog's potential speak for itself. As far as breeding goes, everyone is going to have their own idea of what is "worthy" so I hardly spend any time trying to argue or contradict someone else.

Incidentally, I originally purchased Nikon as my next agility dog (spent hours scrutinizing his conformation at 8 weeks old, lol) and that was the first sport we trained and titled in (he was under 2 years), but now we spend the least amount of time doing agility and it's probably his lowest "level" title and lowest amount of training (it's still probably his favorite thing to do though).


----------



## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> Well that's where the skill of the person with the opinion lies


But that's the core of the issue...how do you trust the skill of the person with the opinion?

There are hundreds of breeders in this country doing it right and producing wonderful dogs. Most of those breeders, even if they produce dogs capable of real work, don’t have the opportunity to place that dog in a working role. The fact is, there are not enough “open jobs” out there for breeders making one or two litters a year to be placing at least a single puppy out of every litter into that type of role. So to basically expect that, is completely irrational IMO. That’s why IPO is used, or other sports are used. They’re at least something that proves the dog has ability and shows that the breeder did try to test the dog under various, more stressful situations.

Training? It helps, and I’m sure very experienced people can see “it” in a dog without titles. But they can also be very easily skewed when that dog is out of their breeding, or has been purchased for a chunk of change that pretty much forces the breeder to basically have to use the dog and get some sort of return on the investment. I know…there are plenty of breeders that will claim to not be biased, but unfortunately, its human nature to skew your opinion of things you care about and I’ll always take a breeders opinion of their own dogs with a grain of salt until I see them work…

But, back to the opinion of the person. How do they gain the knowledge/experience to get that opinion? Like I said, there are so few jobs out there where people are working dogs in things other than sport. We have what, three people on this forum that actually train working dogs? A few more that train service dogs? It’s still like 20 people out of 40000. Then there are those that train some sort of bite sport, or are helpers themselves, which is maybe a few hundred. A higher percentage, but still a tiny number. So if the expectation is for the breeder to “know” what it takes to breed/produce true working dogs…its highly unlikely that you’ll find one with any real experience in that field.


----------



## onyx'girl

Look at what the breeder is actually producing, there are many who have progeny that are actively working, even if the breeder isn't working them or training them....they puppy buyers are.
Some breeders don't want their pups ending up as equipment in an LE dept, where the dog may end up in a less than desirable environment. 
Others use it as a brag, even if they just donated a leftover pup to a small dept and the dog washed out. 
It all boils down to looking at the breeders total program and goals/vision for what they are producing and supporting the breeder that is doing it for the right reasons.


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## martemchik

Onyxgirl, I agree, but it’s so hard to get that information these days. I’m always thinking about the general public, and the general public, who buys 95% of GSDs, doesn’t have the connections to be able to figure out what a breeder’s program is like and how successful it is through word of mouth. On top of that, word of mouth is usually from people that have very little knowledge of what a “real” GSD should be like.

My biggest quip with a breeder claiming dogs are actually working, is that too often they’re fudging the truth because they know it is very difficult to actually check their facts. Most police departments don’t tell you where their dogs came from, SDs are so few and far in between that I doubt you’ll hunt down an actual person with a dog from breeder X and be able to prove that, and SAR…well, I’ve met a few too many people that claim to have active SAR dogs and then you realize they’re just going to train with a group every other month and not actually progressing towards any kind of qualifications…yet puppies are being produced.

If you quickly want to see a successful line of production, a pedigree is always a guarantee. 3 generations of HOT IPO3 bitches? With siblings/progeny also being titled? That’s a guarantee of success. Not, “a dog 8 years ago went into the Town of Middle of No Where, USA police department.”


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Onyxgirl, I agree, but it’s so hard to get that information these days. I’m always thinking about the general public, and the general public, who buys 95% of GSDs, doesn’t have the connections to be able to figure out what a breeder’s program is like and how successful it is through word of mouth. On top of that, word of mouth is usually from people that have very little knowledge of what a “real” GSD should be like.
> 
> My biggest quip with a breeder claiming dogs are actually working, is that too often they’re fudging the truth because they know it is very difficult to actually check their facts. Most police departments don’t tell you where their dogs came from, SDs are so few and far in between that I doubt you’ll hunt down an actual person with a dog from breeder X and be able to prove that, and SAR…well, I’ve met a few too many people that claim to have active SAR dogs and then you realize they’re just going to train with a group every other month and not actually progressing towards any kind of qualifications…yet puppies are being produced.
> 
> If you quickly want to see a successful line of production, a pedigree is always a guarantee. 3 generations of HOT IPO3 bitches? With siblings/progeny also being titled? That’s a guarantee of success. Not, “a dog 8 years ago went into the Town of Middle of No Where, USA police department.”


3 generations of HOT ipo3 would give me some comfort. Every other dog in the pedigree being "dual purpose k9" or similar would give me more. Finding and working with good breeders is where having a good ear for bs comes into play. I KNOW any breeder I go see will tell me the dogs are good for this or that. Here's one of my secrets... If a breeder volunteers negatives along with the positive things about a puppy, dog, breeding, etc, they have just gained a good deal more trust from me.


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## carmspack

"I’m always thinking about the general public, and the general public, who buys 95% of GSDs, doesn’t have the connections to be able to figure out what a breeder’s program is like and how successful it is through word of mouth. On top of that, word of mouth is usually from people that have very little knowledge of what a “real” GSD should be like."

I think I have a little more respect for the "general public" in having some intelligence in understanding what is right for them through interviews, visits, hands on experience with the youngsters , with the adults , with references or youtubes . Members of the "general public" that have defined interests in sport or other can delve into performance records available in what ever that endeavour may be . You want sport then consider the success in sport - with the caveat that the results do not alone reflect on the quality of the animal but include the savvy of the owner and the trainers and decoys . 
That is a small percentage of the 95 % of the general public . And I think that sport is declining for a number of reasons, demographics, public perception , loss of property made available , insurance on and on. IF the sport is to thrive then young people need to be brought on. Unfortunately they have not seen or experienced the 
dogs of the recent past so they may be included in this category "people that have very little knowledge of what a “real” GSD should be like." With this they will form the breed and will form the sport . Circular.
If you want proof , don't harass the PD's.
They have their own connections and any information they need will be made available in spades , and then some, and then they can do the critical evaluation by speaking to each other , unfiltered , direct .
They have a good idea of what is what , whether broker or breeder .
You don't have many chances up at the bat . No time is wasted. You produce or you get removed from consideration . As simple as that .
Little tolerance .

I don't know why you are so worried .


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## martemchik

I’m not worried, I’m having a discussion. I have great dogs, I know where to get more of them. You’re the one that loves to post about how the breed is going downhill and makes a huge deal about it. I see great dogs all the time and know that the breed is going to be just fine. But if you’re going to discuss the fact that breeders need to be producing “real” working dogs, what I wrote is part of the discussion.

The “general public” I know…has no interest in sports or anything else. They have an interest in having a dog that listens, and looks like their local K9. They have no idea what Schutzhund is, and believe their dog that lunges uncontrollably at everything that moves is a perfect candidate for police work.

The saddest part is, we’re having a theoretical discussion, and everyone is for the improvement of this breed. Yet there are people posting here, about how the breed is deteriorating because of unknowledgeable breeders, but then when one comes to this forum, talks about breeding their dogs, they attack those of us that point out the fact that their dogs don’t have the credentials to be bred.

I guess it’s alright to post someone else’s article about it, post your own opinion about it, but when you see it happening, all we should do is sit back and let it happen. At the end of the day, what’s another litter of questionably bred GSDs? One of them might end up a SAR dog if it falls into the hands of a dedicated trainer, guess that makes the “breeder” legit, even though it’s all dumb luck.


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## Jack's Dad

martemchik;
said:


> . *At the end of the day, what’s another litter of questionably bred GSDs? One of them might end up a SAR dog if it falls into the hands of a dedicated trainer, guess that makes the “breeder” legit, even though it’s all dumb luck.*[/COLOR]


Or with a dedicated trainer it might even wind up with an IPO title. All that proves what?

It's interesting that the biggest defenders of titles come from (not breeders) but IPO sport enthusiasts who aren't planning on breeding anyway.


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## carmspack

okay , so far so good "Yet there are people posting here, about how the breed is deteriorating because of unknowledgeable breeders"

to this , huh, who, what ? ", but then when one comes to this forum, talks about breeding their dogs, they attack those of us that point out the fact that their dogs don’t have the credentials to be bred."

is / are the "those of us" in any position to point out?

oh well, got a day's work that needs my attention.


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## carmspack

questionably bred rarely goes anywhere ----


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## carmspack

on this "“a dog 8 years ago went into the Town of Middle of No Where, USA police department.” 

the question remains -- did the dog serve the community well?


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## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> Or with a dedicated trainer it might even wind up with an IPO title. All that proves what?
> 
> It's interesting that the biggest defenders of titles come from (not breeders) but IPO sport enthusiasts who aren't planning on breeding anyway.


I'm not 100% defending titles. I'm just trying to see what's a better way. Just blind trust of breeders or luck? Is that what's expected from breeders?

The point is, quit complaining about the state of the breed if you don't have any answers for how to solve what some of you perceive as an issue. If you can't lay out a minimum requirement, or some sort of checklist that a breeder should meet that would help someone find a decent dog, what's the point of talking about how there is an issue?

If you want to go with the “vote with your dollars” method, that’s going to fail miserably because people will keep buying dogs. The people buying those dogs have no idea what the proper temperament is and to a greater extent, what it is to be a “working dog.” They’re the biggest demographic of people “voting.” So when your voter base isn’t anywhere near knowledgeable enough to point this breed in the right direction, where do you think the breed is going to go?

And no, I don’t believe that the “hang out at a Schutzhund club for a year before you make your decision” is an answer to the problem. As clearly…titles aren’t everything and sport people are ruining the breed just as much as the show people and just as much as the pet people.


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## Liesje

Jack's Dad said:


> It's interesting that the biggest defenders of titles come from (not breeders) but IPO sport enthusiasts who aren't planning on breeding anyway.


Point!


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> questionably bred rarely goes anywhere ----


Except for to fairs, dog parks, parades, on picnics, hikes, and all the other places that the people of this forum like to go with their dogs that give them WAY more exposure than being a K9, SAR, Champion, or IPO3 dog.


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## Liesje

martemchik said:


> If you want to go with the “vote with your dollars” method, that’s going to fail miserably because people will keep buying dogs. The people buying those dogs have no idea what the proper temperament is and to a greater extent, what it is to be a “working dog.” They’re the biggest demographic of people “voting.” So when your voter base isn’t anywhere near knowledgeable enough to point this breed in the right direction, where do you think the breed is going to go?


I still say vote with dollars and I don't care how others vote. In my experience, the general public doesn't average buying any better or worse than many people I know who have trained and titled many dogs, even bred dogs that have produced titled dogs. Everyone has their own idea of what they want and being a free country it's really no sweat off my back if people breed and buy GSDs I don't personally care for. If you showed me a lineup of 50 dogs, 25 that had IPO3 titles, I don't think that would even matter in the end. When I call to my mind the GSDs of my closer friends and training partners...the ones with IPO titles are no more likely to impress me, in fact most of the most "successful" IPO dogs I know I'd have absolutely no interest in owning or breeding because 95% of my time is not spent doing IPO, it's spent *living* with my dogs and in my experience, a successful IPO dog from a long line of successful IPO dogs has not given me any more or less indication that such a dog is one I'd want to share my home with. I realize this is completely anecdotal, based on personal experience, but that is how I based my decisions. I consider people I know, dogs or lines I know, dogs I have actually interacted with and/or observed their training and titling process. Do I actually LIKE their temperament? Do I like watching them train and find myself wanted to jump up and get my butt out on the training field with a dog like that, or do I cringe? Do I respect and admire how they work WITH their owner/handler or is it like watching a 3-way fight between a dog, handler, and helper? The pedigree will tell me what a dog could be (and what he in all likelihood could never be), but in some instances that's an almost uselessly huge spectrum and what ends up making the difference are the dogs in front of me.


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## Vandal

> I’m always thinking about the general public, and the general public, who buys 95% of GSDs, doesn’t have the connections to be able to figure out what a breeder’s program is like and how successful it is through word of mouth


If a member of the General public doesn’t have the wherewithal to ask for references or to talk with people who have the breeder’s dogs....so they can determine if those dogs are right for them..... then perhaps they don’t have what it takes to own a GSD. This is not a breed for the meek. helpless or ill informed.

Somehow every single person commenting managed to find a dog they liked. Some just look at titles, probably because they are new and that’s ALL they know to look at. That is a very dangerous way to search for dogs, especially nowadays but whatever. They can struggle titling those dogs and then tell everyone how great the dog is because it is titled. Even if it did take e-collars, cattle prods and 2x4s to title it...it’s titled. 
We can have a discussion about THAT too if you like....many different types of dogs with titles and this is the part that you are simply NOT understanding.

You are actually giving very bad advice with the insistence on titles as your number one priority. Do you know how many FAKE titles are on dogs nowadays? Someone posted earlier about how IPO 1 titles are mostly given...then went on to say how the 3 is important...you know...after the first free title....lol....These arguments get to be really silly after a while. So many people like you, who really do not know what they are talking about....giving advice. Have YOU titled a dog? How about the other critics? One dog titled perhaps? You have bred those dogs too? Lets delve into your experience here so people can consider how much of your advice they should take.

I have watched numerous people on these boards “evolve” once they learned a little and felt a bit of the reality but in the beginning, they are all like you and a few others..... mostly ignorant about how to REALLY find a dog that fits,....yes, even a “sport dog”.

It will always come down to who is breeding the dogs but also, who is buying them. Buyers have to know what their own limitations are before they call demanding a pup out of SchH titled parents. People should call the breeder and talk to them, not listen to novices on a GSD board convincing them that all breeders are lying, deceptive losers who have forgotten everything they have learned in the last 40 years. At some point, people will need to use their JUDGMENT to decide if they want a dog from that breeder, titles or not. That’s another trait a GSD owner should have. It is not all about the dog you know, it is about the person that dog will live with


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## hunterisgreat

A very well respected person told me the other day "if I see a dog get a 300 in a trial, I know it is a dog I have no desire to breed to". Think about that before discussing. Why do you guess that was said?


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## Saphire

martemchik said:


> But that's the core of the issue...how do you trust the skill of the person with the opinion?


You confirm through references. I had no problem confirming Gus' breeder has her dogs with Police Departments, Corrections, personal service dogs as well as professional working dogs across Canada and the U.S. All contacts confirmed and raved about the quality. It was quite easy.


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## hunterisgreat

Saphire said:


> You confirm through references. I had no problem confirming Gus' breeder has her dogs with Police Departments, Corrections, personal service dogs as well as professional working dogs across Canada and the U.S. All contacts confirmed and raved about the quality. It was quite easy.


Wrong. You go on Facebook and see who their friends are lol


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## martemchik

Just a heads up...I've yet to give any "advice." All my posts have been hypothetical and talking in general. I'm just throwing out scenarios...just like you did.

You talk about how my opinion is weighted less because I don't have experience. True. You're an idiot if you take my posts and base your dog buying decision off of them. In the same sense as you're an idiot if you take anyone's internet posts and base your dog buying decision off of them. That's always been my point here. Why would you trust any recommendation from anyone on this forum...you have no idea who we are!

The truth is, we're online. So for you to call out my experience/lack of knowledge is complete crap. I can come up with a website tomorrow, list random dogs and accomplishments, and have a bunch of people thinking I'm a great dog breeder. I'm not saying you did this, or anyone else on here has done that. I'm just saying, its easily done and people think you're something you're not. It's the core issue with the internet.

If I were to join this website, make some smart posts about training, and say I've bred X amount of liters and they're here, and there, and other places, I've trained dogs to IPO3, blah blah blah, you'd have a completely different idea of me! Instead, I've been truthful, and so there are people here that think they "know" me. I literally have ONE personal relationship with someone on this forum and so I can make any and all ridiculous claims about myself and my experience, and only ONE person would be able to dispute them.


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## LaRen616

I researched the GSD breed before buying one but I didn't do my research when it came to buying one from a breeder so I ended up going the byb route. 
I think my dog and myself turned out pretty good thanks to this forum and after spending time here I figured out how to tell the difference between a good breeder and a bad breeder. 

It's not all about titles, yes I do want to the parents of my puppy regardless of the breed to be titled in something whether it's showing or sport but I also want them to be health tested, be extremely well taken care of, have the proper temperament and build that the breed standard calls for and have a knowledgeable breeder that can tell me about that breed, why they chose to become a breeder and why they think their dogs deserved to have been bred. I also want to have a good relationship with the breeder and know that he/she will be there for me if and when I need them. 

So to me, titles are not everything but they do play a part in my decision whether to buy from that specific breeder or not.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Just a heads up...I've yet to give any "advice." All my posts have been hypothetical and talking in general. I'm just throwing out scenarios...just like you did.
> 
> You talk about how my opinion is weighted less because I don't have experience. True. You're an idiot if you take my posts and base your dog buying decision off of them. In the same sense as you're an idiot if you take anyone's internet posts and base your dog buying decision off of them. That's always been my point here. Why would you trust any recommendation from anyone on this forum...you have no idea who we are!
> 
> The truth is, we're online. So for you to call out my experience/lack of knowledge is complete crap. I can come up with a website tomorrow, list random dogs and accomplishments, and have a bunch of people thinking I'm a great dog breeder. I'm not saying you did this, or anyone else on here has done that. I'm just saying, its easily done and people think you're something you're not. It's the core issue with the internet.
> 
> If I were to join this website, make some smart posts about training, and say I've bred X amount of liters and they're here, and there, and other places, I've trained dogs to IPO3, blah blah blah, you'd have a completely different idea of me! Instead, I've been truthful, and so there are people here that think they "know" me. I literally have ONE personal relationship with someone on this forum and so I can make any and all ridiculous claims about myself and my experience, and only ONE person would be able to dispute them.


I made a thread and a forum member recommended to her daughter to ask me out and we've been together 11 months. I must come across as honest lol


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## martemchik

Saphire said:


> You confirm through references. I had no problem confirming Gus' breeder has her dogs with Police Departments, Corrections, personal service dogs as well as professional working dogs across Canada and the U.S. All contacts confirmed and raved about the quality. It was quite easy.


So you called RANDOM people, RANDOM phone numbers, that I'm assuming you received from the breeder themselves, and asked them about their dog? Sounds legit. Want to call some of my friends and ask them about the great dogs they've gotten from me?

Again...not saying that this happened with you. I have 100% trust that Carmen's dogs are in those positions. I do know, and I do believe that those dogs are where they are. I'm just saying, its not very difficult to mess with.

And kudos to you for doing that. The majority of people, including myself, wouldn't have called. If I was super excited about getting a dog, and the breeder tells me that their dogs are here and there and doing X, Y, Z, I'll believe them. I'm a trusting person, and at the end of the day, a breeder of high caliber has ZERO reason to lie and try to impress someone like me. If I don't buy their dog, someone else will.

But...I've met a few too many breeders that make certain claims that are not 100% truthful. Like...dogs are therapy dogs, making people think they're service dogs. Dogs do SAR...in reality they train a few times a year but aren't really on a team or have any certifications. Or, like you guys have pointed out, dog has IPO3 when it wasn't trained by them or even in this country.


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## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Just a heads up...I've yet to give any "advice." All my posts have been hypothetical and talking in general. I'm just throwing out scenarios...just like you did.
> 
> You talk about how my opinion is weighted less because I don't have experience. True. You're an idiot if you take my posts and base your dog buying decision off of them. In the same sense as you're an idiot if you take anyone's internet posts and base your dog buying decision off of them. That's always been my point here. Why would you trust any recommendation from anyone on this forum...you have no idea who we are!
> 
> The truth is, we're online. So for you to call out my experience/lack of knowledge is complete crap. I can come up with a website tomorrow, list random dogs and accomplishments, and have a bunch of people thinking I'm a great dog breeder. I'm not saying you did this, or anyone else on here has done that. I'm just saying, its easily done and people think you're something you're not. It's the core issue with the internet.
> 
> *If I were to join this website, make some smart posts about training, and say I've bred X amount of liters and they're here, and there, and other places, I've trained dogs to IPO3, blah blah blah, you'd have a completely different idea of me! Instead, I've been truthful, and so there are people here that think they "know" me. I literally have ONE personal relationship with someone on this forum and so I can make any and all ridiculous claims about myself and my experience, and only ONE person would be able to dispute them.*




Nope. At some point our ( that includes me ) lack of experience will be seen for what it is. BS can only get by for awhile. It's not that difficult to check up on claims made on the internet.


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I made a thread and a forum member recommended to her daughter to ask me out and we've been together 11 months. I must come across as honest lol


I'm not saying people on here aren't honest. I just find it funny that for some strange reason, people expect random strangers to weigh opinions differently without knowing anyone on here.

Yes...there is a hierarchy of experience/knowledge on here that leads to ME respecting one opinion more than another. But...why would a person that hasn't been on this site for a few months do the same? Our resume's aren't posted, a new person has no reason to trust the opinion of Vandall, Carmen, cliff, Hunter, over mine, jack's dad, liesje, or selzer.

It's also quite fun to see that people with "more experience" can call out those of us with "less experience" publicly...yet if it was flipped, the ones with "less" get raked over the coals or even warned by a mod for making things "personal."


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## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> [/B]
> 
> Nope. At some point our ( that includes me ) lack of experience will be seen for what it is. BS can only get by for awhile. It's not that difficult to check up on claims made on the internet.


Meh...I don't think so. Unless you really do a hardcore background check and start asking your contacts out in the real world if they know someone you met on the internet that lives in such and such area and is making such and such claims. As "connected" as this world feels, its still very regional. Unless you're really making crazy claims (national competitor), people won't be able to call you out for it.

And I guess if you really wanted to find out the true credentials of someone you could take time to do so...but how many of us are really going to do that so that we can win an argument on an online forum?

I mean...use me as an example. If I have claimed to be a dog trainer with years and years of experience, how would you figure out that I was lying? It's an unregulated industry and the funny thing is, the "certifications" that are out there, most of the trainers that we use...don't have them. So are you going to take the time to call every single training facility in the state of Wisconsin to find out if I work for them? And if I had used some super strange user name, or all you had was a first name...how would you find out that I really wasn't who I said I was?


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## Vandal

People need to realize that 80% of the people who own a GSD really shouldn't. I see it ALL the time since many people bring their GSD here for boarding and training. Many of the people are just ill equipped to own one. Even if the dog has stellar temperament and drive, it is a GSD and they do need owners who can, and are willing, to handle them the right way. 

You have made a number of insinuations on here and have only now made your point more clear. Yes, your ability to select a dog DOES come into play. If you are naïve and buy what is in front of you without question, your advice/comments will be less valuable.

As for the rest, I agree about the recommendations on boards. I have informed numerous people who have called me that only a few people here have actually seen or worked with my dogs. You can have people direct you to a place but you MUST look for yourself and know what to ask. I’ve turned down plenty of people who think they want a GSD, ( a real one, or any other type). I have told them the reality and interestingly enough, many do not want to hear that. They don’t like it when someone dashes their dream of owning a GSD, even though they don’t have what it takes to own one.


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## martemchik

Vandal said:


> People need to realize that 80% of the people who own a GSD really shouldn't. I see it ALL the time since many people bring their GSD here for boarding and training. Many of the people are just ill equipped to own one. Even if the dog has stellar temperament and drive, it is a GSD and they do need owners who can, and are willing, to handle them the right way.
> 
> You have made a number of insinuations on here and have only now made your point more clear. Yes, your ability to select a dog DOES come into play. If you are naïve and buy what is in front of you without question, your advice/comments will be less valuable.
> 
> As for the rest, I agree about the recommendations on boards. I have inform numerous people who have called me that only a few people here have actually seen or worked with my dogs. You can have people direct you to a place but you MUST look for yourself and know what to ask. I’ve turned down plenty of people who think they want a GSD, ( a real one, or any other type). I have told them the reality and interestingly enough, many do not want to hear that. They don’t like it when someone dashes their dream of owning a GSD even though they don’t have what it takes to own one.


Anne...I wish more breeders were like you. And I know there are plenty that are...I like to assume/think that Carmen is like that as well and so are many of the other breeders on this forum. But then there are those that believe that society has changed, and its time for the GSD to change along with it. Breeding dogs for the market they have in front of them and not for what the breed was originally designed to do.

I take huge issue when I see people recommending breeders they've never met, never seen their dogs, never even been within 100 miles of them. But it happens. And unless we're going to start requiring all posts to be prefaced by "I'm so and so and have only owned a dog for X years, we have done X, Y, Z and here is my opinion," none of our opinions can be weighted by anyone but those that have some idea of who we are behind our screen names.


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## Vandal

I could have just made that up you know.....don't be so naive. lol.


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## martemchik

Vandal said:


> I could have just made that up you know.....don't be so naive. lol.


Well played, sir, well played.


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## hunterisgreat

It's not that hard to listen to someone for a bit and learn if they are very skilled, very experienced, or parroting things they read or were told. There are *inexperienced* people I'm inclined to listen to who understand what there saying, and *experienced* folks who I don't listen to because their experience has brought them no true wisdom.


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## LaRen616

hunterisgreat said:


> It's not that hard to listen to someone for a bit and learn if they are very skilled, very experienced, or parroting things they read or were told. There are *inexperienced* people I'm inclined to listen to who understand what there saying, and *experienced* folks who I don't listen to because their experience has brought them no true wisdom.


:thumbup:


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## lhczth

hunterisgreat said:


> A very well respected person told me the other day "if I see a dog get a 300 in a trial, I know it is a dog I have no desire to breed to". Think about that before discussing. Why do you guess that was said?


This is where the skills of the breeder comes into play. A dog that gets 300 pts may have been a tremendous dog with an equally tremendous handler and support team. There are many times in the breed's history where the top dogs were good for breeding (Enno vom Antrefftal, his son Drigon vom Fuhrmannshof, Ernst vom Weinbergblick and Tom van 't Leefdaalhof are the ones that immediately to mind). Then there are many other times when the top dogs were not as good (compare Tom's sons Eros Vs. Ellute). 

Often times those who berate the top scoring teams are those who never had the skill or the dog to get them there. A breeder needs to be able to see past the scores to the dog itself. To dismiss a dog just because he scored well is as foolish as breeding to a dog because he did.


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## björn

I suppose for many titles comes secondary becuase they know it´s not telling everything about the dog, if the breeder or buyer is of the opinion a SCH3 is a proof of high quality then all they had to do is selecting a titled dog and everyone would be happy. Even the titled dog is "untitled" in many ways, there are no proof of how it deals with environments like a heights,darkness and such a policedog should work in, even a SCH3 track is very short compared to the trackings and searching in real life. 

I think there are no titles available that left out the experience of the breeder if a certain dog is good or not for the choosen goal, I mean there is really not so much point in a title if even the breeder don´t know the difference between a good dog or not? I don´t think such a breeder will sell many dogs to people who needs dogs with great character and workingdrives anyway. But I don´t think a breeder necessarily needs to be a k9 handler to know how to breed such dogs if they have a clue what it takes and what is a good GSD for work.


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## martemchik

björn said:


> But I don´t think a breeder necessarily needs to be a k9 handler to know how to breed such dogs if they have a clue what it takes and what is a good GSD for work.


But how does that breeder get the experience to “know” that the dog is capable of doing the work in a certain venue without actually doing the work themselves?

Here’s a scenario…

You need your taxes done. There are two people available, one that has a CPA and has been doing taxes for 5 years. And another that has filed their own tax return for the last 50. Both people know “what it takes” to file a tax return. But which one would you rather go to?

Would you rather go to a licensed mechanic, or the guy down the street that has been toiling away in his garage on the same car for the last 50 years?

All things equal…you don’t know any of these people except for a 30 minute conversation or maybe a few exchanged emails…which one would you chose to go with?


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> questionably bred rarely goes anywhere ----


This caught my attention. Sabi had horrible breeding, without a doubt. Health wise she was a nightmare. And yet she pulled off a lengthy, and successful, career as a working dog, and as a wonderful family pet. By the criteria of titles/working should be bred, she should have been allowed to reproduce. Not.
Nature in fact took care of that, she was probably sterile.

Point is titles are nice, but as a buyer I want to see much more. I have no doubt that many breeders are, or employ, talented trainers and handlers. And a talented trainer/handler can make a dog look like a million dollars. That doesn't mean I want it at my next bbq, schmoozing with Uncle Morty. What happens to said dog outside of the ring, without the professional handler, when its thrown off balance by a two year old child shrieking, or Aunt Debbie spilling her wine on it? 
Look at the whole dog, and what the breeder does besides IPO.


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## Vandal

> Here’s a scenario…
> 
> You need your taxes done. There are two people available, one that has a CPA and has been doing taxes for 5 years. And another that has filed their own tax return for the last 50. Both people know “what it takes” to file a tax return. But which one would you rather go to?
> 
> Would you rather go to a licensed mechanic, or the guy down the street that has been toiling away in his garage on the same car for the last 50 years?
> 
> All things equal…you don’t know any of these people except for a 30 minute conversation or maybe a few exchanged emails…which one would you chose to go with?



Neither...not enough information. PLENTY of people have been ripped off by so called Licensed mechanics..that just makes me laugh....Some of the biggest rip off artists are “licensed”. I have a licensed kennel here. Some Govt. employee walks through once a year and gives me an “A” based on a certain set of criteria. The kennels down the road have the same rating. Guess what? All of them have lost people’s dogs. The dogs got out and were never found or found dead on the road. Experience MATTERS....licensed or not and you as a consumer cannot be a complete dimwit. Why can your fictional buyers be so stupid in your scenarios while the breeders have to be all that? [SIZE=+0]It’s a two way street. [/SIZE]


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## Vandal

...and I will add, as a consumer, you have to consider all the information and for sure, don't be in a hurry. Then use your judgment. If you get ripped off, well...you will know better next time. We all make mistakes.


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## Liesje

Picking a breeder or tax accountant or whatever is not just a checklist. I think gut feeling plays a big part! I'd like to think I'm pretty good at judging when someone is BS-ing me and just telling me what I want to hear. In recent years I have had a need for car engine repairs, plaster wall repair, and high quality fence installation. I don't have time to do these things myself nor do I trust myself to become an overnight "expert" on these sorts of things, yet I was able to find a person to do each job to the level I expected and paid fairly for the work without being BS'd, scammed, or taken for a ride. In each case there were people that I decided not to hire for the jobs and I didn't need the help of other professionals or any real experience with these areas of work to come to that decision.


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## martemchik

Vandal said:


> Neither...not enough information. PLENTY of people have been ripped off by so called Licensed mechanics..that just makes me laugh....Some of the biggest rip off artists are “licensed”. I have a licensed kennel here. Some Govt. employee walks through once a year and gives me an “A” based on a certain set of criteria. The kennels down the road have the same rating. Guess what? All of them have lost people’s dogs. The dogs got out and were never found or found dead on the road. Experience MATTERS....licensed or not and you as a consumer cannot be a complete dimwit. Why can your fictional buyers be so stupid in your scenarios while the breeders have to be all that? [SIZE=+0]It’s a two way street. [/SIZE]


Well no...I'm working under the assumption that all of the people are legit and aren't in the business of ripping you off. Same way as breeders are good people that don't mean anything bad, they're just producing dogs. But good point, in every situation you can be ripped off, and its up to the consumer to do the research, but...you don't think the license or certification makes someone more qualified to perform the service?

Also...I was trying to equate the license to the title, as if its the minimum qualification to do X. So in the case of breeding dogs by the SV system, an IPO1 or a HGH is the minimum title necessary to breed the dog. A CPA license, or a mechanics license, at least gives you some idea that the person knows the minimum information to do their respective job...same with a title. Just tells you the dog can at least do whatever it is the title tests.

Sorry, I'd rather hand my keys over to a licensed person that someone just telling me that they've done X for a certain amount of years w/o any proof.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> But how does that breeder get the experience to “know” that the dog is capable of doing the work in a certain venue without actually doing the work themselves?
> 
> Here’s a scenario…
> 
> You need your taxes done. There are two people available, one that has a CPA and has been doing taxes for 5 years. And another that has filed their own tax return for the last 50. Both people know “what it takes” to file a tax return. But which one would you rather go to?
> 
> Would you rather go to a licensed mechanic, or the guy down the street that has been toiling away in his garage on the same car for the last 50 years?
> 
> All things equal…you don’t know any of these people except for a 30 minute conversation or maybe a few exchanged emails…which one would you chose to go with?


I've switched between multiple CPAs.. all qualified, all good at their job, none made mistakes. Some just aren't for me lol


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> Neither...not enough information. PLENTY of people have been ripped off by so called Licensed mechanics..that just makes me laugh....Some of the biggest rip off artists are “licensed”. I have a licensed kennel here. Some Govt. employee walks through once a year and gives me an “A” based on a certain set of criteria. The kennels down the road have the same rating. Guess what? All of them have lost people’s dogs. The dogs got out and were never found or found dead on the road. Experience MATTERS....licensed or not and you as a consumer cannot be a complete dimwit. Why can your fictional buyers be so stupid in your scenarios while the breeders have to be all that? [SIZE=+0]It’s a two way street. [/SIZE]


I've told people anytime someone tells you "I'm honest", or "I hate gay people" or "I'm X", know that they are the opposite. If they must tell everyone, they themselves don't believe it to be true. They may wish it true but know it false, or they make just want to appear that way to benefit their own agenda... 

It is *always* better to present the facts, and let someone draw their own conclusion, regardless of what we are talking about. This is why a good breeder should only breed to a dog he/she has put their own eyes/hands on. Those are the facts right in front of you, and if you can read & understand dogs then there is no more pure version of the facts... no middleman.


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I've switched between multiple CPAs.. all qualified, all good at their job, none made mistakes. Some just aren't for me lol


But you keep going to CPAs...not the people down the street that have been filing their own taxes for decades...


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## bill

Good people" bad people" good doctor" bad doctor" good breeder" bad breeder". All the cert.college deg"and titles don't make a good breeder or person" like many have said judge the dog in front of you or the people" you can have the best phenotype" doesn't mean they have the genotype" to pass it on. J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> But you keep going to CPAs...not the people down the street that have been filing their own taxes for decades...


I used to file my own taxes, and still go through everything myself. In that regard this analogy begins to be irrelevant as its mostly an issue of liability (I was talking business, not personal. Someones head must roll if a tax mistake killed my company and effected many many households).


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I used to file my own taxes, and still go through everything myself. In that regard this analogy begins to be irrelevant as its mostly an issue of liability (I was talking business, not personal. Someones head must roll if a tax mistake killed my company and effected many many households).


Actually...this makes the analogy very relevant. It's an issue of liability, and the chance that a mistake is made. The mistake greatly decreases when you go to someone licensed and not to someone that just thinks they have an idea of what they're doing without any proof, except that they've never been audited.

I get it, a breeder will have some proof of their success and their ability to breed. But lets just assume you couldn't see it. Let's assume that a breeder has been breeding for decades, none of the dogs are titled, and none of the puppies or dogs can be seen (in person). Then there is someone that's titled their dogs and is breeding them, but same thing, you can't see them, don't know any information about what they've been able to produce...in that kind of a black and white scenario...what would you chose? And yes...none of us would be so stupid to make this type of decision.

I guess the problem is that none of us can separate all the "things" a breeder does because it is a cumulative thing. And I'm not dismissing experience, of course experience makes a difference...but when you say titles don't matter, how do you respond to the above scenario?


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## Vandal

> But good point, in every situation you can be ripped off, and its up to the consumer to do the research, but...you don't think the license or certification makes someone more qualified to perform the service?
> 
> Also...I was trying to equate the license to the title, as if its the minimum qualification to do X. So in the case of breeding dogs by the SV system, an IPO1 or a HGH is the minimum title necessary to breed the dog. A CPA license, or a mechanics license, at least gives you some idea that the person knows the minimum information to do their respective job...same with a title. Just tells you the dog can at least do whatever it is the title tests.


No, I do not think a licence means that much based on what I just said. My point is, you need to look further and not just take 30 minutes to do it. 

As for titles. In SchH it is always rather difficult, (based on your location), to find a good helper or people to train with. About ten years ago, a guy showed up to train with me. He was from Germany, "titled" numerous dogs and has trained and shown in SchH for years. He always was ready to "train" and at first it seemed ideal.

Turned out, he liked to "help" his dogs pass a bit more than I was willing to accept. At first, I simply told him, nope...won't help you cheat but I will help you train those dogs so they can pass. I guess he thought I was kidding and decided he could enter the trial with me as the helper and I would "play the game". I didn't and a few of his dogs were promptly chased off the field by lil ol' me...the girl helper. I was reprimanded by the judge for hitting the dog when it was clear he would let go when I did. lol.....The absurdity of the situation still makes me chuckle but in reality, it is not that funny at all. 

Then he decided he would import a helper for his trials. I watched them practice for the trial. When the dog was asked to out, the helper handed the dog a piece of tripe so the dog would stay there and not leave, (that would result in failure and you did have to at least go through the motions in these trials of his). It did work to a degree, the dogs outted in the trial and then would sniff the stick hand of the helper. Maybe that is a good test of food drive. 

He is still out there today selling those highly trained SchH dogs. I couldn't stand it so could not train with him any longer...although if I had chosen to....LOTS of my dogs could have "titles".


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## björn

martemchik said:


> But how does that breeder get the experience to “know” that the dog is capable of doing the work in a certain venue without actually doing the work themselves?


Most sucessfull breeders have a background with workingdogs before they start breeding workingdogs, they may also train with k9 handlers, breed with "real" k9s or sold many dogs to them so they know what type of dog is good enough. Also, even if you are not a k9 handler you still train and work/compete in different dogsports that is not so far from what the police do, tracking/searching, bitesports. So it´s more of a question to choose dogs with the correct drives and character. If the buyer knows what he wants he is not depending on the breeder so much either, just like a breeder shouldn´t be dependet on titles and points to tell him/her if a certain dog should be breed or not.


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## Vandal

I will just add this about K9 handlers because I know lots of them. Most are first and foremost, police officers. Meaning, they are not dog trainers and they really have no idea what it takes to breed K9s or how to train them up to be one. Yes, they see what their dogs are capable of but many are handlers as part of their job as police officers, not because they are particularly knowledgeable about dogs. Someone with a Police Dog school would know more about the dogs than their handlers IMO.


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## carmspack

hunterisgreat said:


> Wrong. You go on Facebook and see who their friends are lol


not sure what is meant by this ?

I have no Facebook, no cell phone .


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## LaRen616

I love being Facebook friends with members from this forum. It's nice to put a face to a name, see what their days are like and see how much they love their dogs. It's cool to see what you have in common too.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> not sure what is meant by this ?
> 
> I have no Facebook, no cell phone .


lol first, I was just kidding... but I was making a joke about how small the working dog world is and how you can see if someone is really a part of it by who they know, and who knows them.

but no cell phone? seriously? obviously you've got internet lol


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## carmspack

yes, no cell phone and it is a luxury I won't give up . Private time . Time to ruminate while driving -- think the big thinks. Drives me crazy when shopping and someone has to phone "hun" at home to ask whether they should get the can of sweet peas or the petite spring peas , or the cereal with honey or brown sugar.

Since when did we get to the point where we can not make an independent executive decision.

think about it --- 

this to martemchik who said "
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Saphire*  
_You confirm through references. I had no problem confirming Gus' breeder has her dogs with Police Departments, Corrections, personal service dogs as well as professional working dogs across Canada and the U.S. All contacts confirmed and raved about the quality. It was quite easy._

So you called RANDOM people, RANDOM phone numbers, that I'm assuming you received from the breeder themselves, and asked them about their dog? Sounds legit. Want to call some of my friends and ask them about the great dogs they've gotten from me?

Again...not saying that this happened with you. I have 100% trust that Carmen's dogs are in those positions. I do know, and I do believe that those dogs are where they are. I'm just saying, its not very difficult to mess with."

firstly not for one moment do I believe that you have 100% trust in the fact that my dogs are in those positions. So don't say so , because that is dishonest. Your agenda , line of questioning without being able to process and go on to the next big questions tells me so.

Yes . Random selection , not determined by me. In my office my desk is flanked by two libraries. One side has the top shelf with living , current females , the second shelve with dogs that are still with us (as in living) and possibly producing . The low shelf , rarely disturbed with the binders of the dogs from maybe 20 years ago. Older files stored for reflection and reference some point in the future.

Any one is welcome to choose any book , organized by the bitch and her progeny. A page for each pup and new owner , statistics as they come in . Any one is welcome to go through the book , preferably one which has some relevance genetically to the litter that they are looking at , and they are able to take down all or select contact information and make contact. 

Random, unfiltered, not selected by myself.

Not necessarily "recent" still in the honeymoon phase. A contact may have a 12 year old dog and will be able to speak to the entire life and the entire time of dealing with me . 

there is a trunk full of letters and pictures , magazine and newspaper clippings accumulated from over the years -- that is open for all to see.


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## martemchik

Carmen, relax. When I question breeders, just because I'm quoting you, doesn't mean its YOUR program I'm questioning.

And my agenda? What's my agenda? Didn't know I had one...but clearly you know of it so fill me in.


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## bill

I will say I'm a pretty good judge of character" and anyone that would make claims they can't back up" well there are nuts out there! I will say this I have never met Carmen" but I can tell she is sincere and I would buy one of her dogs in a minute! No titles I just need to see the dogs" then if you know anything you can tell" I say if someone talks bull they won't be around long" word of mouth can make or break you! J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> No, I do not think a licence means that much based on what I just said. My point is, you need to look further and not just take 30 minutes to do it.
> 
> As for titles. In SchH it is always rather difficult, (based on your location), to find a good helper or people to train with. About ten years ago, a guy showed up to train with me. He was from Germany, "titled" numerous dogs and has trained and shown in SchH for years. He always was ready to "train" and at first it seemed ideal.
> 
> Turned out, he liked to "help" his dogs pass a bit more than I was willing to accept. At first, I simply told him, nope...won't help you cheat but I will help you train those dogs so they can pass. I guess he thought I was kidding and decided he could enter the trial with me as the helper and I would "play the game". I didn't and a few of his dogs were promptly chased off the field by lil ol' me...the girl helper. I was reprimanded by the judge for hitting the dog when it was clear he would let go when I did. lol.....The absurdity of the situation still makes me chuckle but in reality, it is not that funny at all.
> 
> Then he decided he would import a helper for his trials. I watched them practice for the trial. When the dog was asked to out, the helper handed the dog a piece of tripe so the dog would stay there and not leave, (that would result in failure and you did have to at least go through the motions in these trials of his). It did work to a degree, the dogs outted in the trial and then would sniff the stick hand of the helper. Maybe that is a good test of food drive.
> 
> He is still out there today selling those highly trained SchH dogs. I couldn't stand it so could not train with him any longer...although if I had chosen to....LOTS of my dogs could have "titles".


A club member, previously from Europe, has told me of sleeve covers with a hole in them so the helper can reach through, grab the fursaver, and hold the dog onto the bite


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## martemchik

bill said:


> I will say I'm a pretty good judge of character" and anyone that would make claims they can't back up" well there are nuts out there! I will say this I have never met Carmen" but I can tell she is sincere and I would buy one of her dogs in a minute! No titles I just need to see the dogs" then if you know anything you can tell" I say if someone talks bull they won't be around long" word of mouth can make or break you! J.m.o. Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


Bill...you realize the majority of "word of mouth" on this forum is from people that have A) Never met the breeder B) Never met any of the dogs the breeder has produced C) no idea what "working a dog" in ANY venue other than their living room is.

I'm not saying anything bad about Carmen, or any of the breeders on this forum. It's just a fact that most of the recommendations come from people that have just been reading the forum and seeing others recommend those breeders who have the same qualifications as the above paragraph.

It's basically what you just did...recommended someone, except that you made it clear you know nothing about her or her program except for what you have read online. Is that really something we should be doing?


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## bill

How many titles were bought? That's the problem! Breed those dogs" humm" better with one that was earned" hope you know what to look for besides high score" which is great is earned! J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## martemchik

bill said:


> How many titles were bought? That's the problem! Breed those dogs" humm" better with one that was earned" hope you know what to look for besides high score" which is great is earned! J.m.o. Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


So would you have a problem with any breeder that bred a dog they didn't title themselves?


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## carmspack

regarding the martemchik comment
"At the end of the day, what’s another litter of questionably bred GSDs? One of them might end up a SAR dog if it falls into the hands of a dedicated trainer"

I said questionably bred GSD rarely go anywhere . By that I did not mean that they are locked away , I did mean that they are rarely considered for real work because the people requiring a dog , genuinely , for real work try to maximize their chances of ending up successfully with a working candidate 18 months or so later.
The breeder who continues to produce questionably bred GSD won't be in the running . 

Secondly people requiring real working dogs tend not to choose pups , but will start an evaluation process which may mean that the potential candidates be taken for day-trips by the evaluating agency "to see" . This may start at 9 months . As the months go by and the dog keeps on the same track , a commitment will be given , contingent on hip and elbow evaluations . Even then the dog has a course to attend to where it may wash out . 

With that there is a pretty clear idea of what the dog is all about . Not speculation so much. 

This needing to raise the dog up gives the breeder a lot of opportunities to put the dog into situations and environments and that is part of the experience that is acquired.

You cannot waste "their" time and you cannot waste "your" time , and effort and travel and money .


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## bill

I said you can tell when you meet the dogs and if they are a nut case or not " you read what you want to here! Most people paying good money do research" I gave my opinion" their are some on here I wouldn't buy the best dog in the world from because of attitude!! No names " they know who they are" probably young and like to talk and not listen.Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## martemchik

Carmen, I know what you meant. My point was that those "questionably bred" dogs that end up in pet homes...are seen way more often than the working dogs/sport dogs. There are WAY more of them than there are of the working dogs. The point was...as hard as it is to place a dog in a working role, its a irrational requirement to have that of a breeder. And like you said, the moment the breeder shows they can't do it (dog washes out or whatever), the organization is likely to stop using them. Does that mean the breeder is crap and shouldn't be producing puppies?

If you think the breed has that many issues...you don't support people doing things that are questionable or against what it is that you supposedly stand for when it comes to producing proper GSDs.


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## carmspack

"Does that mean the breeder is crap and shouldn't be producing puppies?"

At minimum time for a serious re-think . If that is your goal and you keep failing ---- yes , please stop producing pups. 

jump to the height of the bar , then raise the bar for the next jump.
Don't lower expectations .


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## Packen

lhczth said:


> Why do you believe it so hard to make the 3? There is virtually no difference between the 2 and the 3 now and they only involve a bit more obedience and a longer track than the 1. Personally I would rather see more dogs with the AWD1 or AWD2 over an IPO3.


I see more dogs retire after getting the 1 as they are pretty much maxed out there and can not handle the additional control/discipline/pressure required to progress. There are much fewer dogs that keep progressing and getting the 3 and competing at high levels consistently. 

If the 1 and the 3 these were equal then this would not be the case. When there are pairings easily available that also have the highest titles and achievements then why would someone go with a bare minimum achievement that may very well be a "given" as part of encouragement from the judge?

Looking at the lines, individual dogs etc are extremely important but only after the initial criteria is met. Breeders do not like this line of thinking as it is very difficult and requires a lot of work, a lot of washouts and a very small number to achieve the highest title. It is easier to breed with no titles, minimal titles, or bought titles as compared to going down the road that may very well result in the dog being a washout. Pretty simple.


----------



## Packen

...Oh and there are quite a few breeders who believe, practice and demonstrate the long/hard route. They just don't post here much!


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## hunterisgreat

Packen said:


> I see more dogs retire after getting the 1 as they are pretty much maxed out there and can not handle the additional control/discipline/pressure required to progress. There are much fewer dogs that keep progressing and getting the 3 and competing at high levels consistently.
> 
> If the 1 and the 3 these were equal then this would not be the case. When there are pairings easily available that also have the highest titles and achievements then why would someone go with a bare minimum achievement that may very well be a "given" as part of encouragement from the judge?
> 
> Looking at the lines, individual dogs etc are extremely important but only after the initial criteria is met. Breeders do not like this line of thinking as it is very difficult and requires a lot of work, a lot of washouts and a very small number to achieve the highest title. It is easier to breed with no titles, minimal titles, or bought titles as compared to going down the road that may very well result in the dog being a washout. Pretty simple.


I've never seen a dog that could get a 1 fair and square, that couldn't get a 3 lol


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## lhczth

Agree, Hunter.


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## lsatov

I agree Hunter.
I got my 1 last fall and have been training for my 2 and 3 this summer not having any issues


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## Packen

See, already talking about taking shortcuts  Mentally people convince themselves that a certain dog can get a 3 so there is no real need to trial him now is there? he can easily get it. Saying/thinking and doing are black n white different.


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## hunterisgreat

Packen said:


> See, already talking about taking shortcuts  Mentally people convince themselves that a certain dog can get a 3 so there is no real need to trial him now is there? he can easily get it. Saying/thinking and doing are black n white different.


I don't believe thats what I am saying at all. There are a million reasons why someone may *not* go to a 3. Injury, time, change of venue, breeding, financial reasons, loss of resources such as club dissolution or lack of a decoy, rule changes preventing further participation, etc etc etc. I can't say I've ever heard someone say "I know he can do it therefore we won't bother with doing it".


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't believe thats what I am saying at all. There are a million reasons why someone may *not* go to a 3. Injury, time, change of venue, breeding, financial reasons, loss of resources such as club dissolution or lack of a decoy, rule changes preventing further participation, etc etc etc. I can't say I've ever heard someone say "I know he can do it therefore we won't bother with doing it".


Happens all the time...especially with bitches. I'm not saying I "require" a bitch to have an IPO3, but its clearly acceptable to just get a 1 and then start breeding.

A breeder that goes for an IPO3 with a bitch, pretty much guarantees that the dog won't have a litter until they're 4, if they're skilled and the dog is capable maybe sooner but you're still talking 3-4 heat cycles so possibly 2 or so litters that won't be on the ground. Then, if you believe they shouldn't be bred past a certain age, say 7...the bitch only ends up having 2, maybe 3 litters. But if you get an IPO1 at 2, get all your health checks in line, you have 5 years of potential breeders from that one bitch.

If you're kind of small, you're not running a large operation, you don't place the dog as soon as its not going to produce...you've just spent all that time and money to train and title for a bitch that will only produce 2 litters and then become a pet in your home taking up time and money that would be going towards a different dog. I know breeders like to say how they're not in it for the money...but at a certain level, you do have to be able to support yourself or your program somehow...

I've also seen it with males. Good pedigree, good worker, gets IPO1 at 2 years old, everything lines up. Studs a few litters, produces well...owner realizes they get the same stud fee regardless if the dog is IPO3 or IPO1...so why spend the time and money to do more? Many times the owner keeps saying he'll get the IPO3, and the people watching the dog know he's capable, but then time flies, the dog is 6 or 7, not really breed worthy anymore, and probably has some IPO1 or higher progeny that is just as good of a producer, so why get the title with the older male?

I guess the more I get into it, the more I see breeders selling puppies purely based off of reputation and not on what the current dog is doing. That's what gets upsetting. To "break into" the game, you probably have to work your butt off, get those high titled dogs, and impress those that truly know. Where as there are "old timers" that have gained a reputation, then realized they can just sell those puppies based off of their reputation. They do the bare minimum...sometimes even less than that and still sell puppies before they're even on the ground. Why do the extra work and go through the extra expense if its just that easy? And its not that the "old timers" haven't earned it, I'm sure at some point they were working dogs and knew what they were talking about...but eventually, its hard to convince me that knowledge doesn't slip a little and you don't get a little biased about what you see. I've met way too many breeders that work their dogs in IPO that will tell you their dogs are all that when they're really not...they're good/solid dogs, but they're not as amazing as the breeder says they are.


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## Liesje

IMO if someone can get a 1, if they want the 3 then they can keep going and get it. Generally you train for the 3 off the bat, dogs earning a SchH1 have done long tracks laid by someone else, cross tracks, they've ran all the blinds, done the call outs and extra outs, retrieve a 3 dumbbell, know the stand out of motion, etc. If they don't get it, unless the dog failed (and/or did really poorly on the 1), my assumption is that it's not a priority for that person. If the handler cared about getting the 3, then they would do it. Everyone struggles with time, resources, the distance to training and trials, injuries to the dog or self...it's not easy even for people who train in their own backyard. If someone looks at my dogs' pedigrees and does not see an IPO3 it's very fair to assume IPO3 is just not a priority for me.

Whether the *dog* can get a 1 but couldn't get a 3, that would depend I guess. I see plenty of people selling dogs they advertise for SAR, agility, flyball, competitive obedience...and I know the breeding dogs don't have this training or ANY such title even the easiest level. It only seems to be an issue for people when it comes to Schutzhund titles. If the handler wants the title, the handler will get it. If we're assuming that any dog that doesn't have a certain title doesn't have it because he is not capable of getting it, well then I need to switch breeds right now, lol.


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## martemchik

Well in regards to titles...I think its not hard to understand that a dog that has a Schutzhund title can more than likely either get, or produce dogs that could do agility, rally, flyball, or competitive obedience. Maybe not at a national level, but they could certainly do it. I can't speak for SAR because that's not really a sport which can be done at a "recreational" level.

If a person is advertising that their dogs are capable of IPO, and all they have on their dogs is rally titles and maybe some lower level AKC obedience stuff...not sure I can go along with that. Same thing applies to the dog doing just flyball and then claiming it can get Schutzhund titles. As little pressure as people say today's Schutzhund puts on the dogs, its still more pressure than the other sports that are out there.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Happens all the time...especially with bitches. I'm not saying I "require" a bitch to have an IPO3, but its clearly acceptable to just get a 1 and then start breeding.
> 
> A breeder that goes for an IPO3 with a bitch, pretty much guarantees that the dog won't have a litter until they're 4, if they're skilled and the dog is capable maybe sooner but you're still talking 3-4 heat cycles so possibly 2 or so litters that won't be on the ground. Then, if you believe they shouldn't be bred past a certain age, say 7...the bitch only ends up having 2, maybe 3 litters. But if you get an IPO1 at 2, get all your health checks in line, you have 5 years of potential breeders from that one bitch.
> 
> If you're kind of small, you're not running a large operation, you don't place the dog as soon as its not going to produce...you've just spent all that time and money to train and title for a bitch that will only produce 2 litters and then become a pet in your home taking up time and money that would be going towards a different dog. I know breeders like to say how they're not in it for the money...but at a certain level, you do have to be able to support yourself or your program somehow...
> 
> I've also seen it with males. Good pedigree, good worker, gets IPO1 at 2 years old, everything lines up. Studs a few litters, produces well...owner realizes they get the same stud fee regardless if the dog is IPO3 or IPO1...so why spend the time and money to do more? Many times the owner keeps saying he'll get the IPO3, and the people watching the dog know he's capable, but then time flies, the dog is 6 or 7, not really breed worthy anymore, and probably has some IPO1 or higher progeny that is just as good of a producer, so why get the title with the older male?
> 
> I guess the more I get into it, the more I see breeders selling puppies purely based off of reputation and not on what the current dog is doing. That's what gets upsetting. To "break into" the game, you probably have to work your butt off, get those high titled dogs, and impress those that truly know. Where as there are "old timers" that have gained a reputation, then realized they can just sell those puppies based off of their reputation. They do the bare minimum...sometimes even less than that and still sell puppies before they're even on the ground. Why do the extra work and go through the extra expense if its just that easy? And its not that the "old timers" haven't earned it, I'm sure at some point they were working dogs and knew what they were talking about...but eventually, its hard to convince me that knowledge doesn't slip a little and you don't get a little biased about what you see. I've met way too many breeders that work their dogs in IPO that will tell you their dogs are all that when they're really not...they're good/solid dogs, but they're not as amazing as the breeder says they are.


lol why would a 6 or 7 year old male not be breed worthy? Most breeders I know breed a prized stud until he *can't* be bred anymore... some even keep going with frozen...


----------



## onyx'girl

I agree, one male I know just had his first breeding at 10! Hopefully more to come.


----------



## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> lol why would a 6 or 7 year old male not be breed worthy? Most breeders I know breed a prized stud until he *can't* be bred anymore... some even keep going with frozen...


Because of what I said...maybe one of his puppies is a better producer at that point. If the male was matched with an excellent female at 2, produced a great dog, that would mean by the time he's 6, that other dog would be 4, and maybe the fact that his dam is in the pedigree that male is more wanted than his father.

Stud dogs usually don't have the longest runs. Something bigger and better is bound to come along, and its not unlikely that it will be out of that dogs progeny.


----------



## martemchik

Most breeders with solid breeding programs that are long running don't focus on the stud dog. Most focus on the bitches. If a bitch is only able to produce 2 or 3 times rather than 6 or 7, its a big deal.

Males are a dime a dozen and are easily titled to IPO3 IMO if the handler chooses to do so. The point of my post was that if the male starts producing after an IPO1, its not a very far jump to see why they would just stop there if they are getting the demand for stud service.


----------



## nikon22shooter

No, they are not important to everyone.

Only to people who like to brag how awesome their dogs lines are.


I'd get one from a backyard breeder if it were the right color and I liked the mom and dad (temperament).


Heck, I rescued one. So no, titles are not everything.


----------



## Saphire

nikon22shooter said:


> Only to people who like to brag how awesome their dogs lines are.


Seriously?


Carmspack Gus


----------



## Sunflowers

nikon22shooter said:


> No, they are not important to everyone.
> 
> Only to people who like to brag how awesome their dogs lines are.
> 
> 
> I'd get one from a backyard breeder if it were the right color and I liked the mom and dad (temperament).
> 
> 
> Heck, I rescued one. So no, titles are not everything.


You have been here for 6 months and have not learned anything?


----------



## Jack's Dad

There is no shortage of German Shepherd breeders ( at least in CA) that have SchH 3 titled dogs. Where they got them, who handled or trained them is not always evident but they are there. So going full cycle on this topic all I can say is so what.

Are they all outstanding displays of what GSDs should be. I doubt it.

Like I said before, the people most concerned about titles are sport people.

I understand that anyone who puts in the time and the training, travel etc.. it should be a big deal to them.

I'm just not convinced that titled parents say all that much about what any given litter will turn out like.

Still need to match the right dogs.


----------



## carmspack

oh lol 
"Where as there are "old timers" that have gained a reputation, then realized they can just sell those puppies based off of their reputation"

it takes a great deal to establish a good reputation , and it takes just as much if not more to keep it. People expect more . You should be able to provide more since you are prepared with 'stock' and knowledge.


----------



## nikon22shooter

Saphire said:


> Seriously?
> 
> 
> Carmspack Gus


Like a heart attack...I guarantee when someone with a 'awesome' line dog, the very first thing they say about their dog is how 'awesome' it is...True story.




Sunflowers said:


> You have been here for 6 months and have not learned anything?


Please enlighten me. Titles mean squat, unless your showing or competing. I would say thats pretty much common sense.


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> I think its not hard to understand that a dog that has a Schutzhund title can more than likely either get, or produce dogs that could do agility, rally, flyball, or competitive obedience.


Is it though? Most of the IPO dogs I know could NEVER do flyball, probably not agility either, they would be way too overstimulated. In fact I've seen many try and all (including one of my own) have washed out. It's largely due to the training and foundation, not the dog itself (meaning, the dog would have been find had it gone directly to those sports and not done IPO for 1-3 years first).

So that's the double standard. IPO people like to assume that their dogs are more advanced and can only earn titles if they are proven and from proven parents, but making claims about other titles is fair game? Or it's OK to say those titles are supposedly so easy they are not even worth earning, but if someone gets an IPO 1 or 2 and doesn't care to finish out the 3 we just assume the dog actually sucks at IPO because it didn't earn the title?

I say, put up or shut up. If someone is out to prove their dogs can earn and produce certain titles, then they should go ahead and do it. Otherwise it's bla bla bla in one ear out the other.


----------



## LaRen616

nikon22shooter said:


> No, they are not important to everyone.
> 
> Only to people who like to brag how awesome their dogs lines are.
> 
> 
> *I'd get one from a backyard breeder if it were the right color and I liked the mom and dad (temperament).*
> 
> 
> Heck, I rescued one. So no, titles are not everything.


Nooooooooo!!!!! I refuse to allow you to disappoint me!!! 

Rescuing a puppy/dog from an actual rescue or kill shelter is FANTASTIC, knowingly purchasing a puppy from a backyard breeder is NOT fantastic.

:thumbsdown:


----------



## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Most breeders with solid breeding programs that are long running don't focus on the stud dog. Most focus on the bitches. If a bitch is only able to produce 2 or 3 times rather than 6 or 7, its a big deal.
> 
> Males are a dime a dozen and are easily titled to IPO3 IMO if the handler chooses to do so. The point of my post was that if the male starts producing after an IPO1, its not a very far jump to see why they would just stop there if they are getting the demand for stud service.


I dunno if I agree there... I agree IPO3 males are a dime a dozen, or IPO males in general, but ones worth breeding are exceedingly rare.


----------



## nikon22shooter

LaRen616 said:


> Nooooooooo!!!!! I refuse to allow you to disappoint me!!!
> 
> Rescuing a puppy/dog from an actual rescue or kill shelter is FANTASTIC, knowingly purchasing a puppy from a backyard breeder is NOT fantastic.
> 
> :thumbsdown:



To each their own.

I do not see anything wrong with a backyard breeder.


I am not trying to disappoint you, just stating my opinion, just like everyone else.


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> oh lol
> "Where as there are "old timers" that have gained a reputation, then realized they can just sell those puppies based off of their reputation"
> 
> it takes a great deal to establish a good reputation , and it takes just as much if not more to keep it. People expect more . You should be able to provide more since you are prepared with 'stock' and knowledge.


False...it might take a lot to establish a good reputation with the working world, and the sport world, but then when that falls over into the pet market, which is where 95% of puppies go. That reputation is extremely difficult to ruin.

The dogs aren't shown. The owners/handlers have no idea what the "standard" is. And as long as their dog doesn't get HD or another genetic disease and isn't aggressive or reactive, its the perfect dog. There is also no where to "complain" or to post bad reviews about breeders. Just look at this forum. You're not allowed to say anything bad about anyone, but you can talk all you want about how great your 10 week old puppy is from anyone.

People don't expect more. I'm shocked you posted that when we just saw nikon22 and jacksdad's posts. MOST GSD owners think the same way nikon22 thinks, and if you think otherwise, you're oblivious to the world we live in.


----------



## hunterisgreat

nikon22shooter said:


> To each their own.
> 
> I do not see anything wrong with a backyard breeder.
> 
> 
> I am not trying to disappoint you, just stating my opinion, just like everyone else.


Backyard breeder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You don't see anything wrong with that?


----------



## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I dunno if I agree there... I agree IPO3 males are a dime a dozen, or IPO males in general, but ones worth breeding are exceedingly rare.


Extremely subjective there. I'm not saying you're wrong, but just because YOU wouldn't use a certain stud, doesn't mean hundreds of others would. I'm assuming there is no way to get 100% agreement about any dog with just the people we have on this forum.


----------



## nikon22shooter

hunterisgreat said:


> Backyard breeder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You don't see anything wrong with that?


I did not read all that.

But please let me specify since your going to nitpick.

There are good reputable backyard breeders out there who don't run a puppy mill and actually care for their dogs and who are very loving and friendly.

And then you have the complete opposite.


But you can't sit here for one second and say that every breeder who has a "show dog" or a titled dog is a good breeder or even in it for the right reasons other than pushing a name and title to make more money.


I've met quite a few backyard breeders who are good people and have fantastic dogs and wouldn't hesitate one second to get another from them.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

nikon22shooter said:


> To each their own.
> 
> I do not see anything wrong with a backyard breeder.
> 
> 
> I am not trying to disappoint you, just stating my opinion, just like everyone else.


What colors do you like? I am going to start a side business breeding untitled unregistered dogs to pay for a new car. There is going to be a flashy website with testimonials and you can come meet the parents who Im sure based on all your experience you will say are good.
I just picked up a nice bitch on craigslist very friendly. Her dad was a police dog!


----------



## nikon22shooter

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> What colors do you like? I am going to start a side business breeding untitled unregistered dogs to pay for a new car. There is going to be a flashy website with testimonials and you can come meet the parents who Im sure based on all your experience you will say are good.
> I just picked up a nice bitch on craigslist very friendly. Her dad was a police dog!



I like darker ones, and the red ones.


I'd like a dark long hair too, maybe even with a splash of red.


However, I wouldn't go to you because your in it for the wrong reason. Next.


----------



## lalachka

If he's a police dog then I want a pup. I want the alpha male of the litter so that he can protect me once he turns 8 weeks. 

Black and white please 


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----------



## lalachka

nikon22shooter said:


> I like darker ones, and the red ones.
> 
> 
> I'd like a dark long hair too, maybe even with a splash of red.
> 
> 
> However, I wouldn't go to you because your in it for the wrong reason. Next.



Lol are you for real? That's the whole point. BYBs are in it for money, that's why they take all the shortcuts, don't test and don't title. That's what this is all about 


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----------



## nikon22shooter

lalachka said:


> Lol are you for real? That's the whole point. BYBs are in it for money, that's why they take all the shortcuts, don't test and don't title. That's what this is all about
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Some yes, all no.


----------



## onyx'girl

as far as flyball goes, I personally don't think the GSD is structurally the right breed for this sport. It will break down the dog eventually, unless it is smaller than the norm. Not all sports are for all breeds.


----------



## nikon22shooter

onyx'girl said:


> as far as flyball goes, I personally don't think the GSD is structurally the right breed for this sport. It will break down the dog eventually, unless it is smaller than the norm. Not all sports are for all breeds.


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Sabis mom

nikon22shooter said:


> Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Some yes, all no.


Show me a BYB that's doing any testing or titling.


----------



## Sunflowers

nikon22shooter said:


> Please enlighten me. Titles mean squat, unless your showing or competing. I would say thats pretty much common sense.


Nah. That's OK. 
You are absolutely right, of course, so there is no need to bother you.


----------



## lalachka

nikon22shooter said:


> Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Some yes, all no.



How many do you know? From the ones that you do know that are not in it for the money, why are they breeding? Miracle of life? Experience a litter?

Sounds noble but that's why shelters overflowing. 


What's a byb in your definition?


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----------



## nikon22shooter

Sabis mom said:


> Show me a BYB that's doing any testing or titling.


Did you miss the point of my "titling doesn't mean anything"?

Just bc your a backyard breeder doesn't mean your a scum of the earth.


And just so your aware, not ALL titled breeders do testing. Trust me, I looked and looked for months and months and I couldn't believe some of these "professional titled" breeders. 


So think what you want, your entitled to your own opinion.


----------



## onyx'girl

All dogs look super in their own back yard...take them out somewhere and put some pressure/stress on them. Do they look like great dogs still?


----------



## lalachka

nikon22shooter said:


> And just so your aware, not ALL titled breeders do testing. Trust me, I looked and looked for months and months and I couldn't believe some of these "professional titled" breeders.



Then they're a byb. 

You test, title, take back any dogs for any reason - you're not a byb. 

Titles don't mean much for pet homes, true. But the breeding dogs must be titled to ensure they're worthy of breeding and conform to the standard. 


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----------



## nikon22shooter

Sunflowers said:


> Nah. That's OK.
> You are absolutely right, of course, so there is no need to bother you.


Your not bothering me, sounds like I'm bothering you haha



lalachka said:


> How many do you know? From the ones that you do know that are not in it for the money, why are they breeding? Miracle of life? Experience a litter?
> 
> Sounds noble but that's why shelters overflowing.
> 
> 
> What's a byb in your definition?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I've met four in my search for a puppy. Only one had the color I wanted. I would of gotten one from any of the four if it were the right color.

They all had nice kennels built for their dogs, everything was clean and the dogs were surprisingly well trained for basic obedience.

Shelters aren't overwhelming because of backyard breeders. Shelters are overwhelming because there are sick people out there who shouldn't own pets, those who aren't fit for it, give it up, release it, tie it up outside, then that dog gets pregnant and the cycle continues.

But to tear down a loving pet owner who wants to backyard breed is unconstitutional. If I want to breed my dog I sure an **** will and that doesn't make me a bad person.

What would make me a bad person is if I tied that dog up to a fence and its only duty was to push out puppies.


----------



## hunterisgreat

nikon22shooter said:


> Your not bothering me, sounds like I'm bothering you haha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've met four in my search for a puppy. Only one had the color I wanted. I would of gotten one from any of the four if it were the right color.
> 
> They all had nice kennels built for their dogs, everything was clean and the dogs were surprisingly well trained for basic obedience.
> 
> Shelters aren't overwhelming because of backyard breeders. Shelters are overwhelming because there are sick people out there who shouldn't own pets, those who aren't fit for it, give it up, release it, tie it up outside, then that dog gets pregnant and the cycle continues.
> 
> But to tear down a loving pet owner who wants to backyard breed is unconstitutional. If I want to breed my dog I sure an **** will and that doesn't make me a bad person.
> 
> What would make me a bad person is if I tied that dog up to a fence and its only duty was to push out puppies.


I think your meaning of "backyard breeder" and the excepted meaning for the public at large differ. What you're describing I think most would call "hobby breeder"


----------



## nikon22shooter

lalachka said:


> Then they're a byb.
> 
> You test, title, take back any dogs for any reason - you're not a byb.
> 
> Titles don't mean much for pet homes, true. But the breeding dogs must be titled to ensure they're worthy of breeding and conform to the standard.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I know BYB, who will take back their dogs if there are problems. Therefore your statement is incorrect.

And thats all I'm saying. For a pet, or even basic 'competition', titles don't mean jack squat.


They only mean something if you want to truly show or compete.


----------



## Liesje

FWIW, agility is worse than flyball, I think, and I don't do it near as much. For one a max jump in flyball is 12" and my dog is running with a 7" height dog this weekend. That's not even a hop for a running GSD! The biggest issue we have with flyball is the fixed distance between the jumps. It's a little odd (short) for a normal size GSD given their rectangular proportion, but there are ways to compensate for that on both ends of the run.

Back to topic...


----------



## Sabis mom

nikon22shooter said:


> Did you miss the point of my "titling doesn't mean anything"?
> 
> Just bc your a backyard breeder doesn't mean your a scum of the earth.
> 
> 
> And just so your aware, not ALL titled breeders do testing. Trust me, I looked and looked for months and months and I couldn't believe some of these "professional titled" breeders.
> 
> 
> So think what you want, your entitled to your own opinion.


I agree. Not all breeders are stellar humans.

You don't think titles are important, fine. Show me a BYB who is health testing.


----------



## nikon22shooter

hunterisgreat said:


> I think your meaning of "backyard breeder" and the excepted meaning for the public at large differ. What you're describing I think most would call "hobby breeder"


What do you call a person who breeds dogs in their backyard?


----------



## martemchik

onyx'girl said:


> All dogs look super in their own back yard...take them out somewhere and put some pressure/stress on them. Do they look like great dogs still?


Unless you're someone that "knows" and has "experience." Then you don't have to test your dog outside its own back yard, you don't have to title. You just "know" the dog has it and everyone should just trust you...


----------



## hunterisgreat

nikon22shooter said:


> What do you call a person who breeds dogs in their backyard?


If you're taking the term literally like that, then both my dogs are from "backyard breeders" also. Thats why I provided you a definition


----------



## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Unless you're someone that "knows" and has "experience." Then you don't have to test your dog outside its own back yard, you don't have to title. You just "know" the dog has it and everyone should just trust you...


I don't condone "I just know its a good dog and breed-worthy", but I also equally bad is "It has X title therefore it is a good dog and breed-worthy". I only accept "I've personally evaluated the dog and so I know it is a good dog and breed-worthy regardless of the letters and numbers that adorn its registered name".


----------



## nikon22shooter

hunterisgreat said:


> If you're taking the term literally like that, then both my dogs are from "backyard breeders" also. Thats why I provided you a definition


Ahhhhh. Well to clear up confusion, a "HOBBY" breeder, there is nothing wrong with. A puppy mill is wrong and bad.


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> Unless you're someone that "knows" and has "experience." Then you don't have to test your dog outside its own back yard, you don't have to title. You just "know" the dog has it and everyone should just trust you...


..


----------



## hunterisgreat

nikon22shooter said:


> Ahhhhh. Well to clear up confusion, a "HOBBY" breeder, there is nothing wrong with. A puppy mill is wrong and bad.


I think most consider a puppy mill to be no different than a backyard breeder who has merely harnessed the economies of scale


----------



## Sunflowers

hunterisgreat said:


> If you're taking the term literally like that, then both my dogs are from "backyard breeders" also. Thats why I provided you a definition


Yup. Mine was definitely in the back yard when I went to pick him up.


----------



## lalachka

nikon22shooter said:


> I know BYB, who will take back their dogs if there are problems. Therefore your statement is incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> And thats all I'm saying. For a pet, or even basic 'competition', titles don't mean jack squat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They only mean something if you want to truly show or compete.



If they take their dogs back and at the very least health test then they're not the byb people are talking about. 

Just because you breed in the backyard doesn't make you a byb. It's a term that describes breeders that throw two dogs together with no testing or thought, then sell to whoever shows up with cash. To put it simply. 



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----------



## martemchik

How does a person make the distinction between a BYB that doesn't title, and a "reputable breeder" that thinks they have the experience to make the statement that they "know the dog has what it takes to title so they don't need to?"

I mean, you guys are ripping apart nikon22, yet that is the thought process of the majority of the buyers of our breed...they're not about to make best friends with a breeder so they can find out all their deepest and darkest secrets and really understand their morals/ethics.

I'm not saying titles are the end all be all...but if we want to improve this breed, we should expect more of breeders...all breeders. IMO either you show a good history of producing dogs that become real working dogs, and also puppies that when placed in sport homes do get titled (whatever venue the owners choose), or you title your dogs to a high level in your own preferred venue. I'd prefer for that venue to be Schutzhund, but I'm not going to destroy a breeder that's got a UDX or a bunch of excellent titles in agility, or just has a combination of a bunch of higher level titles.

A breeder should have to prove something with its current stock, not just live off the 2nd or 3rd generation back.


----------



## nikon22shooter

Term issue my mistake. I'll admit that I was wrong.


----------



## carmspack

" but then when that falls over into the pet market, which is where 95% of puppies go. That reputation is extremely difficult to ruin"
so says martemchik.

a good program doesn't fall anywhere -- a deliberate selection is made where the pups go , someone is in control , the dogs go where they should .

even so , even with pet , a reputation is at risk when there is no care as to what is produced , where it is placed, and , look, when pet people run into problems then the word is out with people who can't handle the dogs , and then you have incidents, or with pet people who need to rehome dogs or whatever. 

what ? to this "People don't expect more. I'm shocked you posted that when we just saw nikon22 and jacksdad's posts. MOST GSD owners think the same way nikon22 thinks, and if you think otherwise, you're oblivious to the world we live in."

I was not talking about people's in general expectation . I specifically said that once you have established a reputation, those coming to you expect you to perform to the level of that reputation if not MORE -- constant improvement .

here is what I said "it takes a great deal to establish a good reputation , and it takes just as much if not more to keep it. People expect more . You should be able to provide more since you are prepared with 'stock' and knowledge."


----------



## lalachka

nikon22shooter said:


> Ahhhhh. Well to clear up confusion, a "HOBBY" breeder, there is nothing wrong with. A puppy mill is wrong and bad.



Actually, hobby breeders still test and title. 

Here's the thing with titles, while you, as a pet owner, don't care about them, it proves that the dogs have been evaluated and somewhat deemed worthy to be bred, meaning, they conform to the standard, have good temperament, can do the work the breed was designed for and so on. 

If someone doesn't title then there's no proof the dogs are breed worthy. 


However, the breeders you're describing are not the true byb that people despise. They're a step above but still not hobby breeders. Hobby breeders are breeders that test and title but only breed a litter or two a year. 


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----------



## onyx'girl

Nobody is forced to buy from any breeder.
Support the ones doing what you think is for the right reasons. Don't worry about the others, because there will always be a never ending supply of puppies that aren't bred for keeping a breed going in the right direction. 

The discussion about this subject is never ending as well!


----------



## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> How does a person make the distinction between a BYB that doesn't title, and a "reputable breeder" that thinks they have the experience to make the statement that they "know the dog has what it takes to title so they don't need to?"
> 
> I mean, you guys are ripping apart nikon22, yet that is the thought process of the majority of the buyers of our breed...they're not about to make best friends with a breeder so they can find out all their deepest and darkest secrets and really understand their morals/ethics.
> 
> I'm not saying titles are the end all be all...but if we want to improve this breed, we should expect more of breeders...all breeders. IMO either you show a good history of producing dogs that become real working dogs, and also puppies that when placed in sport homes do get titled (whatever venue the owners choose), or you title your dogs to a high level in your own preferred venue. I'd prefer for that venue to be Schutzhund, but I'm not going to destroy a breeder that's got a UDX or a bunch of excellent titles in agility, or just has a combination of a bunch of higher level titles.
> 
> A breeder should have to prove something with its current stock, not just live off the 2nd or 3rd generation back.


There are many breeders that are in the business of supplying law enforcement & the military. They build a reputation for selling dogs that can do those jobs. They don't usually have a thing to do with sport. They aren't saying "2nd or 3rd gen back" they are saying "X of this breedings prior puppies are dual purpose psds" or whatever


----------



## carmspack

yikes , Blitzkrieg , when you asked "What colors do you like? "

I thought of that line in Soylent Green , a very chilling creepy movie , where the "green" food is made of people.


----------



## nikon22shooter

lalachka said:


> Actually, hobby breeders still test and title.
> 
> Here's the thing with titles, while you, as a pet owner, don't care about them, it proves that the dogs have been evaluated and somewhat deemed worthy to be bred, meaning, they conform to the standard, have good temperament, can do the work the breed was designed for and so on.
> 
> If someone doesn't title then there's no proof the dogs are breed worthy.
> 
> 
> However, the breeders you're describing are not the true byb that people despise. They're a step above but still not hobby breeders. Hobby breeders are breeders that test and title but only breed a litter or two a year.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I completely understand what your saying...

Here's the thing though. The average person does not care.

All they want is that dark sable (their favorite color) puppy who is going to look mean and keep away the bad guys and sleep with me every night.

They don't care if its tested for A, B or even C.

I bet, color is the number one determining factor when choosing a GSD. For the "average" owner.


----------



## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't condone "I just know its a good dog and breed-worthy", but I also equally bad is "It has X title therefore it is a good dog and breed-worthy". I only accept "I've personally evaluated the dog and so I know it is a good dog and breed-worthy regardless of the letters and numbers that adorn its registered name".


Don't disagree with this at all...but again, YOU can evaluate and you know what you're looking for. You have an idea of what a "proper" GSD temperament is, and that you do look for a dog that can do a certain type of work. The venue you work in, is also highly supported by the majority of this forum.

What about those that don't care about work? Those that have been breeding for decades, and have done certain things to our breed that many of us despise...what makes them any less worthy of doing those evaluations, continuing to breed animals that many people here would agree aren't breed worthy, and not worrying one bit about titling.

I'm looking to just get a theoretical minimum standard, at the end of the day, that will end up being some sort of title. The majority of buyers can't be trusted to evaluate the potential parents, and for every one of them that thinks they "know" what's good and buys a dog that doesn't meet this forum's idea of what a GSD is...that's one more dog out there that we all love to complain about, and one more breeder that continues to breed more of those dogs.

I hope I'm not going out on a limb here...but the reason that Germany, overall, is producing higher quality dogs than the United States, is because they have a minimum titling standard in order to breed a dog. However small, and however "sport" that is. They're dogs are consistently better than the dogs coming out of the western hemisphere.


----------



## lalachka

nikon22shooter said:


> I completely understand what your saying...
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing though. The average person does not care.
> 
> 
> 
> All they want is that dark sable (their favorite color) puppy who is going to look mean and keep away the bad guys and sleep with me every night.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't care if its tested for A, B or even C.
> 
> 
> 
> I bet, color is the number one determining factor when choosing a GSD. For the "average" owner.



True. My dog was chosen that way and he came from a byb at best and a puppy mill at worst. 

Since then I learned a lot and I understand why titles matter and why spending 2k for a pet makes sense. Hopefully others will too. 


But I def choose my dogs based on looks, I will never work them, so to me nothing else matters. But I also don't want to support puppy mills and byb and that's why my next pup will come from a breeder that tests and titles. For that reason alone. 

Lol and I will still choose by the looks. 


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----------



## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Don't disagree with this at all...but again, YOU can evaluate and you know what you're looking for. You have an idea of what a "proper" GSD temperament is, and that you do look for a dog that can do a certain type of work. The venue you work in, is also highly supported by the majority of this forum.
> 
> What about those that don't care about work? Those that have been breeding for decades, and have done certain things to our breed that many of us despise...what makes them any less worthy of doing those evaluations, continuing to breed animals that many people here would agree aren't breed worthy, and not worrying one bit about titling.
> 
> I'm looking to just get a theoretical minimum standard, at the end of the day, that will end up being some sort of title. The majority of buyers can't be trusted to evaluate the potential parents, and for every one of them that thinks they "know" what's good and buys a dog that doesn't meet this forum's idea of what a GSD is...that's one more dog out there that we all love to complain about, and one more breeder that continues to breed more of those dogs.
> 
> I hope I'm not going out on a limb here...but the reason that Germany, overall, is producing higher quality dogs than the United States, is because they have a minimum titling standard in order to breed a dog. However small, and however "sport" that is. They're dogs are consistently better than the dogs coming out of the western hemisphere.


When I said "I" I was speaking as though I was the breeder. Sorry. At some point you have to trust the breeder.

As far as dogs in Germany being better... not so much the case anymore. There is a lot more crap produced in the US, but there are also dogs produced that are tit for tat just as good as the best of Europe.


----------



## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> As far as dogs in Germany being better... not so much the case anymore. There is a lot more crap produced in the US, but there are also dogs produced that are tit for tat just as good as the best of Europe.


You're right...I don't actually see any reason to import(personally). But...I'm talking about taking the average. I don't want to be a SL basher, but lets be clear, you're way more likely to find working ability in a WGSL than you are an ASL.

And I'm fairly certain you can't register dogs if they don't meet certain minimum requirements.

In this country, most "bad breeding" and issues you find in our breed, is blamed on the BYBs and people that just don't do anything but throw two dogs together. Now, I think Germany probably has these people, but to a lesser extent, and I'm sure that the "dog owning culture" of Germany also helps with that.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Don't disagree with this at all...but again, YOU can evaluate and you know what you're looking for. You have an idea of what a "proper" GSD temperament is, and that you do look for a dog that can do a certain type of work. The venue you work in, is also highly supported by the majority of this forum.
> 
> What about those that don't care about work? Those that have been breeding for decades, and have done certain things to our breed that many of us despise...what makes them any less worthy of doing those evaluations, continuing to breed animals that many people here would agree aren't breed worthy, and not worrying one bit about titling.
> 
> I'm looking to just get a theoretical minimum standard, at the end of the day, that will end up being some sort of title. The majority of buyers can't be trusted to evaluate the potential parents, and for every one of them that thinks they "know" what's good and buys a dog that doesn't meet this forum's idea of what a GSD is...that's one more dog out there that we all love to complain about, and one more breeder that continues to breed more of those dogs.
> 
> *I hope I'm not going out on a limb here...but the reason that Germany, overall, is producing higher quality dogs than the United States, is because they have a minimum titling standard in order to breed a dog. However small, and however "sport" that is. They're dogs are consistently better than the dogs coming out of the western hemisphere.*




The proof of that is?


----------



## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> [/B]
> 
> The proof of that is?


Most major police departments import dogs. Most K9 trainers, even if training is in the states, are importing the dogs.

Every single person on this forum that "knows" has "experience" has the respect of the many minions on this forum loves to complain about how bad the breed currently is.

The fact that the post that resurrected this thread from over a year ago included an article written about how terrible the breed is.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

hunterisgreat said:


> There are many breeders that are in the business of supplying law enforcement & the military. They build a reputation for selling dogs that can do those jobs. They don't usually have a thing to do with sport. They aren't saying "2nd or 3rd gen back" they are saying "X of this breedings prior puppies are dual purpose psds" or whatever


 
Comon Hunter how many of those are there? Most of the LE suppliers in NA are brokers that do some litters on the side. I can think of one breeder that fits that bill (Im sure there are more). All their stuff comes from sport lines.
As for backyard..I suppose Nate is a ByB. He has one **** of a backyard though..lol. I still see all his breeding dogs are titled even though his program is not "sporty".

Remember Car..everyone on here was implying he was too sporty last year when there was a thread on him. I note Nate turned him into a Dual purpose K9..lol.
SG Car z Oravskej Doliny

Fyi I agree on the whole IPO 1 vs IPO 3 debate. I have seen some real crappers get the 3. The difference is in the handler in all but a very few cases IMO.


----------



## Jack's Dad

*


martemchik said:



Most major police departments import dogs. Most K9 trainers, even if training is in the states, are importing the dogs.

Click to expand...

*


martemchik said:


> E*very single person on this forum that "knows" has "experience" has the respect of the many minions on this forum loves to complain about how bad the breed currently is.
> *
> *The fact that the post that resurrected this thread from over a year ago included an article written about how terrible the breed is.*


Maybe but I almost never see one of the thousands of red and blacks that are titled in great numbers on a PD. Maybe they are back east.
Could you explain the meaning and significance of this bolded portion.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Comon Hunter how many of those are there? Most of the LE suppliers in NA are brokers that do some litters on the side. I can think of one breeder that fits that bill (Im sure there are more). All their stuff comes from sport lines.
> As for backyard..I suppose Nate is a ByB. He has one **** of a backyard though..lol. I still see all his breeding dogs are titled even though his program is not "sporty".
> 
> Remember Car..everyone on here was implying he was too sporty last year when I started a thread on him. I note Nate turned him into a Dual purpose K9..lol.
> SG Car z Oravskej Doliny
> 
> Fyi I agree on the whole IPO 1 vs IPO 3 debate. I have seen some real crappers get the 3. The difference is in the handler in all but a very few cases IMO.


There are probably more than we are aware of, because they likely don't advertise and don't sell to the public... but I agree.


----------



## martemchik

The Racine, Wisconsin PD has a WGSL K9.

The bold part is, that there are tons of people, that have a bunch of experience, that consistently bring up how the "breed isn't what it used to be." All of these people live in the western hemisphere.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> The Racine, Wisconsin PD has a WGSL K9.
> 
> The bold part is, that there are tons of people, that have a bunch of experience, that consistently bring up how the "breed isn't what it used to be." All of these people live in the western hemisphere.


That's because both people from the eastern hemisphere are absent today.


----------



## martemchik

The article that resurrected this thread, talked about how bad the breed is currently. All the genetic problems and all the problems with the fact that this “working breed” hasn’t been tested for work. Breeders aren’t focusing on producing working dogs and to some extent that’s due to breeders focusing on sport and breeders focusing on show (a lot of the blame was placed on the show). The idea that “Schutzhund = K9 work,” is basically why the dogs have been bred for the sport, but in order to get the flashier obedience and power that is wanted, the true working ability has been forgotten.

So sure…that’s a problem. But to assume that a breeder, that at some point DID produce some working dogs, therefore possibly stopped titling (because at that point they were titling), is now “allowed” to not care about titles because at some point they’ve earned the experience to know what a true working dog is.

It’s the same exact problem that comes up with “sport” people/breeders. AT some point, the sport was meant to test if the dog had the ability to do real work. Slowly that moved because people paid more attention to the sport than the work. People that “thought” they knew what a true working dog was, kept adjusting that when they got into sports. But they were easily able to convince people that their “sport” dog was capable of real work because…wait for it…they have experience with real working dogs. They taught people what THEY thought was “working temperament” but it was ever so slightly shifted towards more sport stuff…and this happens over generations, and you get where you get with “sport dogs.”

So that’s my point…when you say it’s alright for some breeders to stop titling, and to just use their experience to judge what a dog is capable of, without having some non-biased, objective eyes, look at the animal, you’re allowing the breeder to use their biased opinion to affect where the breed is going. And when that breeder has a reputation...people tend not to question them. People just go with the flow, thinking they're doing the right thing and are breeding towards whatever it is they have told them they're breeding for. I also understand that a judge can have the same affect…but at least at a trial you have more eyes looking at the dog and making the judgments themselves, and then they can make the decision to breed to the dog, or get a puppy from that bitch, and to in effect support what that breeder is working towards.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Maybe it's time to relive this. 

The Fat Lady has begun to sing


----------



## martemchik

Why?

I think this is a very interesting discussion. It's all theoretical, that way no one should get upset. We're not allowed to post about actual breeders, name any names of people that we know are doing things against what is talked about, show examples. So I'm talking in very broad statements.

I know that there are good breeders out there producing excellent dogs. I'd have no problems finding a good GSD or two. But I'm "connected" and know what to look for. Most people don't.

So what's the point of complaining about where the breed is, if you don't have any answers (even theoretical ones) for how to fix it? How do we make it so that the average person can go to a breeder and know they're getting a quality dog w/o doing months and months of research and tracking down tons of pieces of information from every corner of the earth.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Jack's Dad said:


> Maybe it's time to relive this.
> 
> The Fat Lady has begun to sing


That made me want to vomit. That's why titles aren't enough


----------



## lalachka

hunterisgreat said:


> That made me want to vomit. That's why titles aren't enough



How did yu watch the video? I get errors


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----------



## björn

martemchik said:


> So what's the point of complaining about where the breed is, if you don't have any answers (even theoretical ones) for how to fix it? How do we make it so that the average person can go to a breeder and know they're getting a quality dog w/o doing months and months of research and tracking down tons of pieces of information from every corner of the earth.


The solution is probably better more critical breeders who can look beyond titles and points The less realistic solution would probably be having harder regulations to breed, but then again what titles and tests would be enough, SCH-titles isn´t enough obviously, you can´t leave out the breeder regardless of the titles and tests, why would the average person care anyway if they are not looking for a strong workingdog? Those I know who sell many dogs to service doesn´t care if the dog is a worldchampion in SCH or not, why would they if it´s not SCH and competitions that are their main intresst. If the breeders aren´t intressted in producing healthy and good workingdogs then I think it´s hard to force them to do so, they will also not sell so many dogs to service if the health and workingability is mediocre.


----------



## LaRen616

lalachka said:


> True. My dog was chosen that way and he came from a byb at best and a puppy mill at worst.
> 
> Since then I learned a lot and I understand why titles matter and why spending 2k for a pet makes sense. Hopefully others will too.
> 
> 
> But I def choose my dogs based on looks, I will never work them, so to me nothing else matters. But I also don't want to support puppy mills and byb and that's why my next pup will come from a breeder that tests and titles. For that reason alone.
> 
> Lol and I will still choose by the looks.


I also chose my dog based on looks and sex. I wanted a black male, I bought from a byb.

I have also learned a lot from this forum and I understand the differences between a byb and a reputable breeder. I will never again support a breeder that doesn't do any health testing and doesn't have any titles, whether they are show titles, working titles or sport titles. I will never again support someone who is not trying their absolute hardest to better the breed and breed dogs that fit the breed standard in both health, temperament and structure.

I am a pet owner, I am not involved in any dog sports although I would like to be, when I buy a dog it is because I want a companion, but health testing and titles are important to me. I want to know that the breeder I support is actively doing something with their dogs.

Regardless of what breed I buy, I will buy from a breeder who strives to better themselves and the breed.


----------



## carmspack

right Bjorn " they will also not sell so many dogs to service if the health and workingability is mediocre. " 

that is what I was trying to convey to martemchik. A reputation is made . There is an expectation. The dogs are evaluated by outside parties -- this is a must -- . You are expected to keep providing that level or better. This maintains and generates interest .


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## lalachka

Laren, yep. 

So the main reason for me would be that I don't want to support wrong breeding. But a few other reasons is that it's nice to be able to see where your dogs come from, who the parents are, to know that a breeder cares to see how the dog is growing up and so on. 

I'd love to know more about my dog but since I don't have papers for him and his 'breeders' don't have much to brag about they don't give me any info. 

On another note, I also don't understand the snobbery (lol is that even a word?) about working dog homes against pet homes. The word pet is almost used as an insult. 


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----------



## LaRen616

lalachka said:


> On another note, I also don't understand the snobbery (lol is that even a word?) about working dog homes against pet homes. The word pet is almost used as an insult.


:thumbup:

BTW, Happy Birthday!


----------



## onyx'girl

yes, I remember a discussion about pet vs working homes brought up.....like sport vs working. The buzzwords of the new era. Our poor dogs have to live up to so many expectations.


----------



## Saphire

onyx'girl said:


> yes, I remember a discussion about pet vs working homes brought up.....like sport vs working. The buzzwords of the new era. Our poor dogs have to live up to so many expectations.


Rest assured the dogs are not offended.
I see nothing offensive about working or pet home references.

Carmspack Gus


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

onyx'girl said:


> yes, I remember a discussion about pet vs working homes brought up.....like sport vs working. The buzzwords of the new era. Our poor dogs have to live up to so many expectations.


**** straight. Without expectations there is never any incentive for breeding superior stock.


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## onyx'girl

when I see a pet dog on fb with a Police K9 collar on it does raise my hackles a bit. I am not for those that place working words on a dog that isn't an actual working dog. 
By that I mean not a sport dog, but a real working canine that has a daily job or on call type training. My IPO dog is NOT a working dog, he is a dog that is doing sport. I guess it is all about interpretation, but please don't misrepresent with a collar or harness showing those 'real' certifications.


----------



## lalachka

LaRen616 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> BTW, Happy Birthday!



Where does it show??

And thank you))))


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----------



## LaRen616

lalachka said:


> Where does it show??
> 
> And thank you))))
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Home page, on the right.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> when I see a pet dog on fb with a Police K9 collar on it does raise my hackles a bit. I am not for those that place working words on a dog that isn't an actual working dog.
> By that I mean not a sport dog, but a real working canine that has a daily job or on call type training. My IPO dog is NOT a working dog, he is a dog that is doing sport. I guess it is all about interpretation, but please don't misrepresent with a collar or harness showing those 'real' certifications.


Interesting. My trailer says "working k9s in transport" on the back (there from the maker) and "caution working k9" on the sides. This would bother you? Short of custom made there was no other option. 

What about personal protection? If my dog has a "day job" but I dabble in sport is that valid or no?


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## onyx'girl

collars are different than vehicle cautions....but even those are attention getters, to stay clear of, or more of the curiosity seekers?

A club local to me all have caution K9 stickers plastered all over their rides. They were selling them at recent seminar.

I don't know what JQP thinks...do they back off or get closer? 
I'd rather be more incognito and not draw that attention.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> collars are different than vehicle cautions....but even those are attention getters, to stay clear of, or more of the curiosity seekers?
> 
> A club local to me all have caution K9 stickers plastered all over their rides. They were selling them at recent seminar.
> 
> I don't know what JQP thinks...do they back off or get closer?
> I'd rather be more incognito and not draw that attention.


Nothing is on my car mind you. Well, a stick man and to dog stick figures. But even then one attorney is telling to put them on my vehicle. I just have hesitated to... And nothing says "police" of course. That being said, much if the training I do is not for sport so where does one draw the line?


----------



## onyx'girl

I am not a fan of embellishing or misrepresentation. Regardless...I see quite a few that have Police K9 collars on their dogs, and they are either pet dogs or dabbling in sport. They are not LEO K9's That is my bitch...I don't get it when people lie/embellish/misrepresent their dogs. Elite K9 should charge bigtime if people order those and can't prove the certification, lol! They sell them too cheap.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> I am not a fan of embellishing or misrepresentation. Regardless...I see quite a few that have Police K9 collars on their dogs, and they are either pet dogs or dabbling in sport. They are not LEO K9's That is my bitch...I don't get it when people lie/embellish/misrepresent their dogs. Elite K9 should charge bigtime if people order those and can't prove the certification, lol! They sell them too cheap.


They actually say "police"??


----------



## onyx'girl

hunterisgreat said:


> They actually say "police"??


 yes, I saw one tonight on my fb newsfeed~ ... child hugging a long coat SL wearing a police K9 collar.
It is just one of my pet peeves. Same as some who need those titles representing.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> yes, I saw one tonight on my fb newsfeed~ ... child hugging a long coat SL wearing a police K9 collar.
> It is just one of my pet peeves. Same as some who need those titles representing.


Pretty sure that is illegal. "K9" is not. And quite frankly I've never seen "caution working dog" or anything like that. My trailer *needs* warnings. People get curious what the trailer is and get closer than I'd prefer. My vehicle where you can clearly see a big shepherd head I feel needs less warning


----------



## cliffson1

@ Jacks Dad....lol....they certainly aren't back east. I'm learning so much about police dogs, training and procurement from this thread:crazy: anyway, tested my dog yesterday at a police academy with " five" police trainers, and some other 15 k9 officers. I wish I could post the email from the head trainer on the evaluation. They tested obstacles, obedience, sound sensitivity, heights, bitework ( sleeve, suit, and hidden sleeve), and after that brought him inside to hang out with officers. He excelled, which surprised me because his father is only IPO one. I realize I was lucky to get this dog as puppy relying on my knowledge/experience, instead of high titles and information learned in this thread. Oh Well
Btw, Germany is not the Mecca of working GS these days, heck, they aren't using their own GS for police work in many cases. That is fact, not just some unsubstantiated information thrown out based on limited exposure.


----------



## carmspack

the refrain to Cliff's song is "Germany is not the Mecca of working GS these days, heck , they aren't using their own GS for police work in many cases."
I'll confirm that this is fact . 
The lustre is off . OTHER countries , non-SV , are keeping the working dog alive .

this is a youtube that I provided in a thread of its own https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs

here is the thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...eos/440833-video-german-tv-subject-breed.html

unfortunately this is in German , but the picture say it all. 

Fast forward to 22:30 and see and hear the concerns of German police officers . This has been going back to the 1990's when the SV , capitalizing on the huge marketing experience that the Sieger Schau is , divorced itself from the police dog trials and the BSP .


----------



## Castlemaid

Also to answer a comment earlier on, one reason most police k9's are imported from overseas, is because they are bred in quantity, and available as young dogs, ready to start training. 

Here in North America, there just aren't that many breeders - not that there aren't good dogs being bred, just not enough young green dogs available for purchase. Police department here can put in an order for X amount of dogs and the overseas breeders can fill those orders. Here, not so much.

Some excellent dogs are being produced here, and not because of the SV system, but because of knowledgeable experienced breeders that know working dogs, not so much because they put their faith in the SV system, though some may use the titling procedures to prove their dogs breedworthy. 

For example, the RCMP has their own breeding program. The dogs go through extensive evaluation and training before being operational, and titles on the breeding dogs and the working dogs mean nothing - what they produce is what is important. 

Another example are breeders such as German Shepherd Breeder | Police Dogs | Schutzhund | Washington USA | BC Canada. Suzanne may use all titled dogs, but that is to prove the dogs - not because the title makes the dog, but the dog makes the title. North American breeder that breeds dogs as good as any imported working dog.


----------



## Liesje

onyx'girl said:


> I don't know what JQP thinks...do they back off or get closer?
> I'd rather be more incognito and not draw that attention.


I have a "caution" sticker on my van I was thinking of picking off b/c part is peeling off and I have lots of other stickers I can put on...agility, flyball, Michigan/M22/M37 stuff, rescue dog, etc. I put stuff on and eventually it comes off so I get something new... But then my local friends told me they are constantly getting crap from people about having animals in their van while we're out for training, tournaments, etc, even when it's obvious because the dogs are in crates and have training gear. I've never once had someone bother me about that so I'm wondering if the sticker helps, people must see it and think the dogs are in there for a reason and they should *expect* to see a dog in there (which is true, the van is for dogs otherwise we're in my husband's car). So now I'm thinking I'll leave it on until it falls off itself if it saves me from one of those crazies who break your windows and let your dogs loose because you parked in the shade on a 75* day and your dogs are well ventilated and have water. 

No one has ever misinterpreted my dogs for police dogs because of a sticker, lol. I drive a rusted out soccer mom minivan with tons of other crap on it/in it, much of it hot pink (even my male dogs have hot pink toys). People do ask if the dogs are "police dogs" when I'm out and about (not in the vehicle) but I think that's just because they are GSDs. I got asked that ALL the time with Kenya, must be a sable dog thing. She couldn't be any farther from a police dog! (shy, no confidence, would definitely "flight" before "fight").

I do think that anything "police" or "working" is reserved for WORKING dogs (SAR, LEO, military, security, etc). When I see those labels I assume it's because that dog has special clearance to be in an area that is off limits to pets (including dogs for sport, therapy, or ESA, but not including Service Dogs) and should not be interrupted our touched because he is on the job.


----------



## Liesje

Castlemaid said:


> Also to answer a comment earlier on, one reason most police k9's are imported from oversees, is because they are bred in quantity, and available as young dogs, ready to start training.


Don't a lot of departments also get dogs through brokers? Brokers probably have good connections for getting green dogs and the departments probably don't really care whether they're imports or not. I've had a few people tell me their dogs were "imports" when they were bred from one or both imported parents so I don't know if everyone has the same definition for that label anyway.


----------



## blackshep

Don't go to a BYB please!

Titles aren't everything in the sense that the genetics don't change on a titled dog vs untitled, they are what they are. However, titles do tell you a lot about how the dog is able to work, be trained and will usually show you the dog's strengths and weaknesses, so for that reason, I would not take a pup from a breeding with untitled parents.


----------



## martemchik

Castlemaid said:


> Here in North America, there just aren't that many breeders - not that there aren't good dogs being bred, just not enough young green dogs available for purchase. Police department here can put in an order for X amount of dogs and the overseas breeders can fill those orders. Here, not so much.


Isn't that the point? They have the ability to produce the higher quality dogs in higher numbers. I'm assuming there are way more GSD breeders in the United States than there are in Germany. Just sheer size of our county points to that. There aren't many places in this country where you can't find a GSD breeder (of various skill) within an hour's drive. If we have more breeders, and so more puppies being produced, yet they're still out producing us when it comes to good working dog prospects...on average, they have better dogs.
Since the Germans have been doing it.

And people keep posting examples of certain individuals that are able to do it. There seems to be a large void/hole that could be filled by knowledgeable individuals (which we can see exist) to produce more working dogs in this country. Seems like some people have started to fill that hole, but why aren't there more?


----------



## lesslis

Maybe just maybe...some very good breeders would never sell to police dept. Why???


----------



## hunterisgreat

lesslis said:


> Maybe just maybe...some very good breeders would never sell to police dept. Why???


Afraid to lose good breeder status? I dunno, why?


----------



## lesslis

Don't know. My question.


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## martemchik

lesslis said:


> Maybe just maybe...some very good breeders would never sell to police dept. Why???


Are you saying you know this for sure or are actually asking.

I highly doubt that if a police department came to a breeder because they've established themselves in the sport world and wanted a dog from them for police work, the breeder would say no; unless they were so ethically sound that they knew the dogs they produce wouldn't do well as K9s and therefore say no. But, with people being people, I highly doubt that kind of breeder wouldn't believe his/her dogs would excel at anything they throw at them.

I could see a breeder possibly saying no if the police department said they wanted the dog at a year old with certain training on it, and the breeder wasn't capable of doing that due to other commitments or a different focus. But if a police department for some reason wanted to purchase an 8 week old puppy, and then socialize and train it themselves (or possibly have a contractor lined up) I can't see a breeder saying no.


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## lesslis

No, really asking! lol


----------



## carmspack

" could see a breeder possibly saying no if the police department said they wanted the dog at a year old with certain training on it, and the breeder wasn't capable of doing that due to other commitments or a different focus. But if a police department for some reason wanted to purchase an 8 week old puppy, and then socialize and train it themselves (or possibly have a contractor lined up) I can't see a breeder saying no. "

Martemchik -- the dog is sold with guarantees of certification.
If the dog doesn't then you need to replace the dog , so you don't pass out dogs willy nilly without thought.
PD's don't buy puppies.

That is one reason we don't have more breeders "here" doing this . People want to get them homed asap.

You have to hold them back , socialize, develop, x ray, wash out (if necessary and you better be sure and critical - no rose coloured glasses) . More one on one , more team building and bonding.


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## lesslis

Makes much sense. Thanks.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> " could see a breeder possibly saying no if the police department said they wanted the dog at a year old with certain training on it, and the breeder wasn't capable of doing that due to other commitments or a different focus. But if a police department for some reason wanted to purchase an 8 week old puppy, and then socialize and train it themselves (or possibly have a contractor lined up) I can't see a breeder saying no. "
> 
> Martemchik -- the dog is sold with guarantees of certification.
> If the dog doesn't then you need to replace the dog , so you don't pass out dogs willy nilly without thought.
> PD's don't buy puppies.
> 
> That is one reason we don't have more breeders "here" doing this . People want to get them homed asap.
> 
> You have to hold them back , socialize, develop, x ray, wash out (if necessary and you better be sure and critical - no rose coloured glasses) . More one on one , more team building and bonding.


You have a super hard time with "theoretical scenarios" don't you?

Or do you just like to quote JUST ME and then show people how I'm wrong.

"I could see a breeder possibly..." Nothing in that statement says that's what happens in real life. I was just thinking of a scenario where it could occur.

Not everything happens the way you explained it either...but I'm not here to post about how wrong you are and name off a time where how you explained it didn't occur and therefore you're 100% wrong all the time with your statement.

I also find it hilarious that you decided to skip over the part where I said the breeder might not want to do the socializing and training for the first year that I basically know would be required...and that's the reason they wouldn't sell the dog to a PD.

FYI...we've had plenty of LEO from small towns post how their department wants them to purchase a puppy and try to train it for K9 work. That's not how it works in LARGE departments, but I'm sure plenty of small town police departments with 5 officers don't mind taking a risk purchasing a GSD for K9 work and if it fails, it just becomes a pet.


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## Liberatore

What Carmen said is true. Brokers go over seas to get green dogs because people in Europe train/raise the dogs for that purpose. The intention is to train and sell the dogs as green youngsters or titled dogs, then start again. People in the US tend to buy a dog and keep it. It's a different mind set for one.

PD's very, very, rarely buy a dog less than 1yr old. Too much risk involved in a youngster/puppy that can't be tested to the level they need, too much time and training involved to get them to a year only to find out they wash out of training or health checks. Buy a yearlying or two year old, in-processing includes performance testing and health screening, one week max invested in the dog at that point, contract normally states 1yr replacement if the dog doesn't work, so minimal investment is lost.

How many breeders are capable, or willing, to hold back dogs, train them up and potentially wash them out after a year of training? You have to have 100% confidence not only in your breeding program, but also your testing ability and training program in order to do that. Much simpler to sell them as puppies. 

Ang


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## carmspack

a breeder may not want to sell to a PD and use training , and risks , as an excuse wanting the dog to live the life of Little Lord Fauntleroy, on velveteen cushions.

this is a rugged , sturdy, working breed . should be.


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## carmspack

theoretical scenarios , replaced by reality.


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## Liberatore

carmspack said:


> a breeder may not want to sell to a PD and use training , and risks , as an excuse wanting the dog to live the life of Little Lord Fauntleroy, on velveteen cushions.
> 
> this is a rugged , sturdy, working breed . should be.


It's also a lot more ego stroking to get pictures and updates of 'fur-babies' from pet owners than it is to invest your breeding, training and time into a dog you want to raise for police work only to be told by the trainer/tester that he doesn't cut the mustard 

Ang


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## carmspack

without titles-- you need to keep track of how the dogs are doing . You need feed back . 

these are excerpts for one female , her sister is certified in work , her brother is a cert bomb dog , the dam of them all produced multiple certified police and service dogs (now retired and living in a home)

excerpt ----
Carmen, Bella and Kathy passed their first step to acquire a SAR 1 tracking certification. It tool 24 minutes for 3/4 mile track in the woods. So now they are certified

following the training log of another dog , who did certify shortly after this excerpt --

Yesterday it was 1.05 miles in 31 minutes, all Rural track.Yesterday we run into Bear Scat on the track, a lot of it.

Today 1.55 miles in 40 minutes, urban track, grass, hardtop, intersection, gravel, small creek and even a 2 Pheasant Rosters jumping out in flight in front of the dog.


Total tracks to my knowledge is 19 tracks in her training records.



This dog is a killer SAR Tracking dog.

--- these dogs came from working dogs , not just working lines, actual working dogs that would have no title to post . 
They following deep generations that were put together and proven in work .

Recently there was a litter born from these genetics , the sire was a working ,certified PD , retired when his handler , retired, gladly taken by the trainer / certifier . Line known for longevity and vibrant health , dog trained for SAR , certified . Did mile and a half urban track , certified by sergeant SAR . 
Both dogs had reputation.
Litter born . Before they were born - 3 spoken for , working careers ahead . I have no gain from this litter , just to say , both sire and dam are many generations my breeding , and I advised this combination. 
I'll have access to this combination to make breeding recommendations in the future to keep the ball rolling.


when using a title you are making assumptions , which we are seeing are just that . 
A title is not a seal of approval , or quality .

Just looking at titles is like spoon feeding , effortless .


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> That is one reason we don't have more breeders "here" doing this . People want to get them homed asap.


So isn't that the problem? Breeders aren't willing to put in the time/work to train a dog to where it needs to be for that type of work?

It's not like there isn't money in it. You can charge a lot of money for that type of dog. I've heard of crazy prices for "green dogs." I'm talking 10x what a puppy generally goes for.


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## lhczth

As was pointed out before, many breeders do not want to keep back puppies to train and sell later as young dogs. Some also don't want to put their dogs into a line of work where they could die. Also some don't want them living their lives as a piece of equipment (these are things I have actually been told by breeders). I used to train with a woman that will not sell to PD or SAR. IMO, though, the first reason is the main one. Breeders want to sell puppies ASAP and don't want to take risks nor put in the time.


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## martemchik

Carmen, I would never deny that a dog that actually proves that it can work should be bred. A dog that has that kind of success, is a K9, is an active SAR dog, sure...who cares about the titles.

The problem I'm seeing isn't from the breeders that are producing those types of dogs. I'm seeing the breeders that have some sort of reputation built from sport or possibly a few dogs placed into working environments over the past few decades. They get a puppy, or an older dog, and don't bother doing anything with it except for training. They claim that the dog has "it" and without a title, or a working certification, so without actual proof...they're just making the assumption (based on their experience) that the dog is capable of doing X. And they start to breed it.

I'm all for preserving true working lines, but too often the last working dog is 3 or 4 generations back. That's the problem I see. Breeders using their knowledge to just tell people the dog is capable, then showing a dog from 15 years ago that's the great grandsire and trying to back it up with that. Just doesn't sit right. These are the types of breeders that are breeding for the pet market, breeding a lot of dogs, and not placing any percentage into working roles at this point.

You said it yourself, if a breeder stops producing working dogs, stops proving it in that venue as well, they need to step their game up. But I don't see them doing that.


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## carmspack

"It's not like there isn't money in it. You can charge a lot of money for that type of dog. I've heard of crazy prices for "green dogs." I'm talking 10x what a puppy generally goes for. "

oh really? 
that would be incentive then, but it is not the case . 
maybe that is the bee in the bonnet .


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## carmspack

who is the they and the them ?

"
Carmen, I would never deny that a dog that actually proves that it can work should be bred. A dog that has that kind of success, is a K9, is an active SAR dog, sure...who cares about the titles.

The problem I'm seeing isn't from the breeders that are producing those types of dogs. I'm seeing the breeders that have some sort of reputation built from sport or possibly a few dogs placed into working environments over the past few decades. They get a puppy, or an older dog, and don't bother doing anything with it except for training. They claim that the dog has "it" and without a title, or a working certification, so without actual proof...they're just making the assumption (based on their experience) that the dog is capable of doing X. And they start to breed it.

I'm all for preserving true working lines, but too often the last working dog is 3 or 4 generations back. That's the problem I see. Breeders using their knowledge to just tell people the dog is capable, then showing a dog from 15 years ago that's the great grandsire and trying to back it up with that. Just doesn't sit right. These are the types of breeders that are breeding for the pet market, breeding a lot of dogs, and not placing any percentage into working roles at this point.

You said it yourself, if a breeder stops producing working dogs, stops proving it in that venue as well, they need to step their game up. But I don't see them doing that. "

insinuation -
YOU want the proof "Carmen, I would never deny that a dog that actually proves that it can work should be bred.

Your idea of proof is a title.

The people "in the field" using the dogs , have the proof . Sometimes things are just not out there for easy public consumption.


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## carmspack

how would you do this "I'm all for preserving true working lines"


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## carmspack

Ang of Liberatore said "It's also a lot more ego stroking to get pictures and updates of 'fur-babies' from pet owners than it is to invest your breeding, training and time into a dog you want to raise for police work only to be told by the trainer/tester that he doesn't cut the mustard "


PD's don't appreciate a lot of exposure . They are there to use the dog . Dogs and providers are anonymous to the public . (good idea)

Those that have a need to know , professional to professional , will have all the information that they need to have and will and do contact each other -- and then there is that reputation when "dogs" rise to the top , like cream .

If Ang , of Liberatore , is this For Sale

then they KNOW a thing or two about working dogs.


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## martemchik

Yeah, if the breeder can quickly show me that their dogs are K9s and SAR dogs when I'm looking to purchase from them, that's one thing.

But I'm seeing people spew all over the place that they're doing that and they're not. I know one person for sure that claims their dog is a SAR dog and I know 100% it isn't because at other times they've admitted to not being able to do the work themselves. It's just upsetting when you see people get tricked by breeders that realize how easily people believe them that their dogs are working dogs or former K9s.

I preserve them by voting with my dollar. I don't buy from a breeder that isn't breeding towards what I believe to be a solid working line dog. Just like the majority of people.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> The people "in the field" using the dogs , have the proof . Sometimes things are just not out there for easy public consumption.


And that's a huge problem when 95% of dogs are going to pet homes. It's not those people that are shifting where the breed is going. It's the pet market that moves it more than anything.

As hard as it is to place a dog into a true working role, its almost comical how you have this expectation that breeders should be aiming towards that. And as bad as the majority of breeders are now, to be talking about such a crazy expectation is stupid. All I'm saying is that a sport title at least fills the gap, at least shows the breeder wants to prove something about their dog.

What makes me even more dumbfounded is that you've supported people's decisions to breed dogs that are clearly not aimed towards these goals. People that have come onto this website, without any knowledge of what it would take to breed a working dog, throwing a pair of pedigrees out here that clearly won't create tomorrow's K9, and you've attacked me for telling them that I don't believe those dogs should be bred.

I guess I'd just like to see a bit more consistency from the opinions we get on here.


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## carmspack

Your one purchase every 12 years won't affect much in the grand scale of things.

"Yeah, if the breeder can quickly show me that their dogs are K9s and SAR dogs when I'm looking to purchase from them, that's one thing"

because you are going to do what with them ?

" I don't buy from a breeder that isn't breeding towards what I believe to be a solid working line dog. "

your personal belief may be way off base from what the folks using the dogs think of or need as a solid working dog . Not just a working line dog , a working dog. 

"It's just upsetting when you see people get tricked by breeders that realize how easily people believe them that their dogs are working dogs or former K9s."

?????? people have to have some personal involvement, and smarts .


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## carmspack

I ALWAYS look for soundness , temperamental strength , and balance .
Consistent . Persistent . Resistant . (to changing to anything else or less)


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> your personal belief may be way off base from what the folks using the dogs think of or need as a solid working dog . Not just a working line dog , a working dog.


Of course it may be. So may yours. And so may anyone else's that thinks they're purchasing a working dog.

Happily...you have no idea what my idea is of a solid working dog. You have no idea who I work with when I train dogs, and any of their certifications or experience when it comes to working dogs.

Like I said...my male's brother is an active SAR dog. My female has a half sister that has an active SAR dog. Guess that makes my two dogs have the "lines" needed to be successful working dogs. Female's dam is being trained as a cadaver dog, at the age of 9. Oh, and you can't ask any questions about how "successful" they are, because at the end of the day, they've served the community and that's all you can ask for.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> because you are going to do what with them ?


You realize you have like 1% knowledge of what I do in real life right? You have like no idea what my other interests are. So I'm just wondering why you throw questions out like that?

Are you a K9 handler? Are you currently on an active SAR team?

Fairly certain, out of the two of us, I have a much higher chance of doing one of those things in the future.


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## carmspack

Martemchik -- did you see the distance and times that were posted in a SAR trainers training log ---- example 1.55 miles in 40 minutes . That sure is not sch h tracking . 
The artificial foot to foot would get in the way . That would be a hindrance . 
The bite work is done in prey . The obedience is done with prompts .

I need to head out - got miles to cover and now with less time to do so.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> Martemchik -- did you see the distance and times that were posted in a SAR trainers training log ---- example 1.55 miles in 40 minutes . That sure is not sch h tracking .
> The artificial foot to foot would get in the way . That would be a hindrance .
> The bite work is done in prey . The obedience is done with prompts .
> 
> I need to head out - got miles to cover and now with less time to do so.


So its okay for you to CALL ME out for not currently doing the venue, and yet when I turn it around on you its time to get all upset about it?

That was my point...in 2 years, if I decide to do SAR. I can. If I decide to do it tomorrow. I can.


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## carmspack

"Are you a K9 handler? Are you currently on an active SAR team?

Fairly certain, out of the two of us, I have a much higher chance of doing one of those things in the future"

darn tootin right there . I have no aspirations to be a k9 handler . At this point I run like a girly version of grampa Walter Brennan (except he isn't running much these days)

I don't want to be k9 SAR handler either . 

My "thing" is getting the dogs out to the people that do . 

so for your future as a k9 SAR handler , make sure you have the right dog to work with.


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## Jack's Dad

So conclusion after 28 some pages is Martemchik won't be purchasing a dog from Carmen and Carmen won't be selling a dog to Martemchik.


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## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> So conclusion after 28 some pages is Martemchik won't be purchasing a dog from Carmen and Carmen won't be selling a dog to Martemchik.


If I contact her in real life...she'll have no idea who I am...


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## carmspack

martemchik 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_Martemchik -- did you see the distance and times that were posted in a SAR trainers training log ---- example 1.55 miles in 40 minutes . That sure is not sch h tracking . 
The artificial foot to foot would get in the way . That would be a hindrance . 
The bite work is done in prey . The obedience is done with prompts .

I need to head out - got miles to cover and now with less time to do so._

So its okay for you to CALL ME out for not currently doing the venue, and yet when I turn it around on you its time to get all upset about it?

That was my point...in 2 years, if I decide to do SAR. I can. If I decide to do it tomorrow. I can. 







 

You missed the point totally.

My example was showing how a Sch H title wouldn't provide the information I needed .


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## carmspack

martemchik said:


> If I contact her in real life...she'll have no idea who I am...


 that is how it stands now. You know who I am . 
That is my name . That is my kennel.

Your moniker and cloak hides your indentity .


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## martemchik

I didn't miss any point...

*"because you are going to do what with them ?"*

That's there to point out the fact that I'm not currently working the dogs in one of your "approved" venues.

Basically saying I don't know what a true working dog is and that I don't need to be buying from people that produce real working dogs because I'm not actually working the dog.

I can read. I understand English even though its my second language.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> Your moniker and cloak hides your indentity .


Tu-nu-nu-nu-nu-nu-nu-nu BATMAN!


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## lhczth

OK, this has now turned into a back and forth, who is right and who is wrong, childish argument. Please either stay on topic or go some where else to play.  

Thank you,

ADMIN


----------



## Merciel

lalachka said:


> On another note, I also don't understand the snobbery (lol is that even a word?) about working dog homes against pet homes. The word pet is almost used as an insult.


On that note, I had a weird/interesting experience last weekend when I took my foster dog Queenie out to an adoption event.

So: Story time!

Queenie, my current foster, is a small (35-pound) mixed breed of some indeterminate terrier blend. I would guess there's some Jack Russell in there, and also probably some pit bull.

Because it's really hard to place pit mixes, and because Queenie happens to be a smart, athletic, biddable little dog who's a lot of fun to train, I figured I'd put a Novice Trick Dog title on her. It's an easy, relatively low-investment way to make her stand out from the crowd of other pittie mixes on the adoption market.

Fast-forward a month and we've got that done. I have a cute little video showing Queenie's beginner tricks, I have her title certificate, cool, mission accomplished.










I take her out to an adoption event.

Two important things here: (1) At the adoption event, Queenie is an _angel_. She sits quietly in her crate, she is calm and composed, she does not vocalize even when the reactive coonhounds across the room are barking their fool heads off at deafening volumes and lunging at every dog that walks past them. (2) She is way _way_ more attentive and better-behaved than any other dog at this event.

In other words, she's not acting like the kind of hectic spun-up wild child that some rescues will try to market as "agility prospects." She is acting like a very nice well-behaved dog, an island of good manners in a sea of completely untrained pound puppies.

_Nobody wants her_.

I was sitting across the room and I would watch prospective adopters come up to her crate, read over her stat sheet, stop at the part that listed her training accomplishments and novice title... and then they would mouth a silent "Wow" or nudge the person next to them to take another look, and they would _walk away at a faster pace_. People would almost literally _run_ away from this dog because she had a (super easy! not serious!) title.

craaaaaazy.

Anyway I still don't know exactly what to think of that whole incident, but I will say that it really drove home that a lot of pet homes apparently _do not want_ a dog who has a title. Even if it's practically a "just for fun" title.

What am I to make of that? I don't know. But from now on whenever I think about "pet homes," I am going to remember that day.


----------



## Shade

Merciel said:


> On that note, I had a weird/interesting experience last weekend when I took my foster dog Queenie out to an adoption event.
> 
> So: Story time!
> 
> Queenie, my current foster, is a small (35-pound) mixed breed of some indeterminate terrier blend. I would guess there's some Jack Russell in there, and also probably some pit bull.
> 
> Because it's really hard to place pit mixes, and because Queenie happens to be a smart, athletic, biddable little dog who's a lot of fun to train, I figured I'd put a Novice Trick Dog title on her. It's an easy, relatively low-investment way to make her stand out from the crowd of other pittie mixes on the adoption market.
> 
> Fast-forward a month and we've got that done. I have a cute little video showing Queenie's beginner tricks, I have her title certificate, cool, mission accomplished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take her out to an adoption event.
> 
> Two important things here: (1) At the adoption event, Queenie is an _angel_. She sits quietly in her crate, she is calm and composed, she does not vocalize even when the reactive coonhounds across the room are barking their fool heads off at deafening volumes and lunging at every dog that walks past them. (2) She is way _way_ more attentive and better-behaved than any other dog at this event.
> 
> In other words, she's not acting like the kind of hectic spun-up wild child that some rescues will try to market as "agility prospects." She is acting like a very nice well-behaved dog, an island of good manners in a sea of completely untrained pound puppies.
> 
> _Nobody wants her_.
> 
> I was sitting across the room and I would watch prospective adopters come up to her crate, read over her stat sheet, stop at the part that listed her training accomplishments and novice title... and then they would mouth a silent "Wow" or nudge the person next to them to take another look, and they would _walk away at a faster pace_. People would almost literally _run_ away from this dog because she had a (super easy! not serious!) title.
> 
> craaaaaazy.
> 
> Anyway I still don't know exactly what to think of that whole incident, but I will say that it really drove home that a lot of pet homes apparently _do not want_ a dog who has a title. Even if it's practically a "just for fun" title.
> 
> What am I to make of that? I don't know. But from now on whenever I think about "pet homes," I am going to remember that day.


That is so sad  Queenie looks like an absolute sweetheart and gorgeous to boot, I personally would have thought the title would have perked people's interest as well! At the very least opened a conversation about what the title meant, etc. I would think most people would see that as a bragging right as well

To think that actually stacked the odds against her to certain people...wow, just wow


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

SAR is interesting. I think the value of SAR is often overblown. The standards seem to vary widely. The dogs rarely seem to ever prove themselves in real life. I think there are some federal certs that are difficult FEMA or some such agency.

Ultimately for me if a Lab, Spanial, shelter mutt or Golden can do it it doesnt tell me all that much about what I value in a GSD.
Dont get me wrong I like Hunt drive its essential for real work but its just part of the picture. 
A dog that has nerve for SAR or Narc Detection does not necessarily have the nerve to fight a man. Otherwise Im sure Labs would be dominating Dual purpose roles and sport fields everywhere.
Not saying I wouldnt look at a breeding that has a single purpose dog in it (actually just heard of one thats very interesting). However, I know the breeder and trust that he has evaluated the other half of the picture properly. Plus all the other dogs in the ped are titled in sport.
Even better I dont have to just accept stories on trust. I can look up the parents, grand parents, and some of the great grand parents on Youtube and watch them in action. 

If I had to pick between a dog with high hunt/prey or the courage and hardness to effectively fight a man Id compromise on the Hunt.

Ideally you want both but often times the dog isnt perfect unfortunately. 
Ill try to pick a breeding that highlights the qualities Im looking for. Courage, fight, hardness, grip, prey etc to stack the odds in my favor.

Thats where my personal preference comes into play.


----------



## carmspack

who said you can't have courage and fight in a SAR dog?

The best dog should be able to do it "all" --- but some callings don't capitalize on them. Remember the GSD is utilitarian, versatile.

The problem with sport breeding , recently , is that hunt drive is neglected , tracking drive is neglected . 

In the past with U litter Kirschental you would expect it , Bernd Lierberg ditto, Racket Itztal , a source . 

most recent ones I would say Aly vordersteinwald .... others?

SAR is not = wimp . 90% of policing is finding the guy, finding the drugs, finding the bombs , finding the chemicals , insects , etc . This is the growth part of policing . You want to minimize bites, use only when necessary . A good dog multiplys the effectiveness of the unit.

I am not trashing titles. I hope to see some good dogs at the regionals tomorrow. Always looking for the good dogs . I am saying that a title or titles does not tell enough about the dog.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> who said you can't have courage and fight in a SAR dog?
> 
> The best dog should be able to do it "all" --- but some callings don't capitalize on them. Remember the GSD is utilitarian, versatile.
> 
> The problem with sport breeding , recently , is that hunt drive is neglected , tracking drive is neglected .
> 
> In the past with U litter Kirschental you would expect it , Bernd Lierberg ditto, Racket Itztal , a source .
> 
> most recent ones I would say Aly vordersteinwald .... others?
> 
> SAR is not = wimp . 90% of policing is finding the guy, finding the drugs, finding the bombs , finding the chemicals , insects , etc . This is the growth part of policing . You want to minimize bites, use only when necessary . A good dog multiplys the effectiveness of the unit.
> 
> I am not trashing titles. I hope to see some good dogs at the regionals tomorrow. Always looking for the good dogs . I am saying that a title or titles does not tell enough about the dog.


 
If it has not been proven you dont know what you have courage or hardness wise. I dont take things on faith, I need proof. 

My personal dog has some serious dogs in her pedigree close up. I have no idea what her actual courage and hardness level is. To early to test and I will test. I have strong indicators but no proof yet.

Her hunt has really started to come up nicely which makes me happy.

I even question how much actual hunt and retrieve many of these SAR dogs have with the standards being as nebulous as they are. 

At least with a Narc dog they can throw some numbers at you...eg $60k in finds etc. You know if the dog is doing the job and there are real finds.
Still doesnt give you much info on the other half of the picture.


----------



## carmspack

there are standardized requirements in Canada , designed by RCMP .

I grant you there are a few loosely assembled well meaning "volunteer" groups , more in the USA . I saw a program , a piece of investigative journalism -- and I will tell you honestly that zero of the dogs should have been there . The training was horrible. The handling was horrible. The dogs were flat and lacking motivation. The greatest failure was that the handlers were guiding the dogs showing them where "it" was . I was talking to the tv screen -- just that bad.
They wouldn't get called on.

SAR is serious stuff -- lives at stack . I am very critical on this.


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## cliffson1

There are big differences in SAR.....from HRD ( human remains) to Wilderness types, Urban types, etc. 
the training and certification for an Urban SAR dog is so difficult, that the majority of GS today won't make it. Why? Because of the weakness in the breed in environmental nerves, which is also the most frequent reason many police candidates today wash out, ( as opposed to bitework, which many pseudo experts on police work and dogs believe). 
My question to expert breeders here, is how do you maintain and test for environmental nerve strength??? Training?, Titles?, genetics?, 
This lack of environmental nerve strength is just as prominent in sport dogs as pet dogs or show dogs, ( not all but far too many so that other breeds are being sought for PD,SAR,etc), so I am curious as to why our breed is in this state?


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## martemchik

Just an informational question...how do you define "environmental nerves"?


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## Blitzkrieg1

cliffson1 said:


> There are big differences in SAR.....from HRD ( human remains) to Wilderness types, Urban types, etc.
> the training and certification for an Urban SAR dog is so difficult, that the majority of GS today won't make it. Why? Because of the weakness in the breed in environmental nerves, which is also the most frequent reason many police candidates today wash out, ( as opposed to bitework, which many pseudo experts on police work and dogs believe).
> My question to expert breeders here, is how do you maintain and test for environmental nerve strength??? Training?, Titles?, genetics?,
> This lack of environmental nerve strength is just as prominent in sport dogs as pet dogs or show dogs, ( not all but far too many so that other breeds are being sought for PD,SAR,etc), so I am curious as to why our breed is in this state?


Id say its genetics in my "expert" opinion...lol. I also know of some breeders that raise their puppies from 21 days on with progressive exposure to noises and surfaces. Some swear by this method seems like it couldnt hurt.
Define fail the test. I know different organizations test differently. Dog is pulled out of the truck by a person he has never met and taken into a building and briefly balks at going down some steep steps then does it. He doesnt balk again is this a fail? Maybe just doesnt trust the strange handler.
Are we talking about tossing a ball into a dark room? Dog hesitates for a split second then goes is this a fail? A mal would probably not hesitate..

I hear that customs only wants metal retrievers now. Apparently their test is more stringent then most PDs what they fail would pass other PD selection tests.. If the dog wont retrieve metal they arent interested I wonder how much of that is imprinting from puppyhood. Unless the criteria has changed.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I know this was discussed previously but is it how the dogs are bred? Mals / Dutchies more linebreeding different lines seem pretty typy temperment wise. They arent afraid to fudge a pedigree to bring in some new blood. 
Wheras I look at GSD programs and the dogs seem like they are from all over. Very little line breeding, alot of breeding stock are from all over not the breeders progeny.

I have seen one program in the States where the breeder has line bred consistently off a foundation bitch and her daughters has also line bred on Olex. Uses all his own dogs etc. Seems like a successful working program to me. Howcome less GSD breeders do this? Is it the need to have all those big kennel names in their breeding lineup in order to sell pups? Always jumping to the next big thing instead of building their own line and reputation.
If you have been doing it for 10 years I dont see why most of the brood stock is not yours and multigenerational. Is it because your failing? 
Ironically I see a lot of pet breeders breeding their own stock but with no goals or testing. I have seen some pedigrees with plenty of the breeders personal dogs but try to find one of those dogs working on video..good luck. You dont have that issue with mals/dutchies. 
Just some questions I have always had.


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## carmspack

blitzkrieg "I have seen one program in the States where the breeder has line bred consistently off a foundation bitch and her daughters has also line bred on Olex. Uses all his own dogs etc. Seems like a successful working program to me. Howcome less GSD breeders do this? Is it the need to have all those big kennel names in their breeding lineup in order to sell pups? Always jumping to the next big thing instead of building their own line and reputation.
If you have been doing it for 10 years I dont see why most of the brood stock is not yours and multigenerational. Is it because your failing? "

this is exactly what I have been doing for 30 years . Built on my female who went RCMP SAR -- attended Mt St Helens search, and a commercial mall where the roof collapsed . I have pictures of her being rappled off the side of a cliff laying in a kit (which would be used later to bring the potentially injured person up to top , once they were located . He had wandered away trying to find a spot he could climb back out , spent the night , and then lost his footing and was washed downstream in some turbulent current . He was was pounded and bashed but alive to tell the tale. The dog was airlifted to location , which was inner BC . 
Then that female had a litter to a retired PD that was well known within the LE community. That produced a litter , the single male TomBrown went to RCMP , who had spoken for every male that would be born . TomBrown got knifed in an aggressive apprehension and lost his life on the operating table by loss of blood. The sisters Stash , Jasmine, Salada all SAR in addition to other titles . Tetley the female I kept produced 2 males for Toronto. Keno - Purina Hall of Award , and Tell . Next litter .... next litter.... always PD's coming out of them , and avalanche, Urban/Disaster SAR , bomb , etc . 

some dogs did go into sport and got their titles , caught the attention of the Vollraths (high in trial) , and other judges that appreciated a good hard dog . 

for how long a time period and how many times have I given this information -- 

it is a monitored and tested program . There are in-house PD breeding programs that do the same . Once you are on a roll you are actually hesitant to bring in "new" , but you have to , and so the in depth pedigree search begins , the geno type not the phenol type matters.


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## björn

I think the bottomline is we can´t breed only on dogs who have achieved much as far as titles and points are concerned because it would be hard to find only fully certified and proven policedogs and high level sportdogs, and maybe also espeically for sportdogs the trainers skills and limitation of the trial rules will not prove the dog´s genetics 100%. And what good is a highly titled dog if you still don´t know much about the littermates as far as health and work goes, better then with a dog with less titles but where you know most dogs in the litter.

Common sense really, if the dog is a sucessfull sportdog,policedog,security or just having the basic requirement to be breed shouldn´t be the only things that count. If we look at germany the majority of dogs is of no intresst for a breeder of policedogs despite they have titles in many generations, so titles are no solution unless a title is testing most of what you need to know and there are people willing to title lot´s of dogs. Maybe titles do more harm than good if dogs are selected much on their titles, fame and points as number one criteria.

I mean, look at this dog, in training but not titled yet, his mother wasn´t titled either besides the basic requierements, HD/ED plus a form of charactertest. I saw a k9 handler that wanted to breed his female PSD to this male, because he liked the dog and the whole litter, also tested the dog in different environments to see his ability there. Would this dog not pass IPO1 or the "hard" IPO3, should you wait untill he has his IPO1, and if he just stays on IPO1, then it´s better to breed with the top scoring dogs in big championships because their genetics are better?


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## carmspack

Mona Wiehen of Brigadens has always bred some very good dogs .


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## cliffson1

Good post Bjorn as usual, imo.....broadly defined, environmental nerves is the ability to not be adversely affected by new places, sounds, surfaces, heights, substances, tight spaces, night, etc..... things that a working dog may encounter unless they work only at home. Slick floors are example that is easy to see. 
In reference to one question about the degrees of unsureness, I tend to look at three variables in this regard....1) how long after introduction to these things does it take dog to perform/recover, 2) is there a consistent drop in confidence/performance when asked to perform in these elements, 3) and does dog always show a reluctance when encountering these elements.
There are very good dogs that once exposed to things quickly moves forward with few repetitions and you can never tell it was a problem.
My question is how do breeders/buyers ensure that the stock or breeding they are considering is sound? Is it puppy tests, is it titles on parents, .....why are so many of our breed coming up short in this area?


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## Doc

Could it be that these 'titles' aren't really a true measure of the dog? I have a female line that goes back to the old Long Worth stock. It has been in our breeding program for 40 years or more. We have 7th and 8th generation females now. No titles, no points, etc. we know what the line is and what it produces. We use outline males that compliment or compensate only after we look and study what that dog came from and what he is capable to produce.
Nerves are by far one of the top traits we pay attention to. It's not titles or ribbons but the characteristics / traits we are most concerned about. We also talk to other breeders that understand what German shepherds are suppose to be. Titles mean very little in my breeding program, particularly with today's dogs. Too much greed, money, and payoffs for titles have ruined the majority of dogs.


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## robk

Doc said:


> Could it be that these 'titles' aren't really a true measure of the dog? I have a female line that goes back to the old Long Worth stock. It has been in our breeding program for 40 years or more. We have 7th and 8th generation females now. No titles, no points, etc. we know what the line is and what it produces. We use outline males that compliment or compensate only after we look and study what that dog came from and what he is capable to produce.
> Nerves are by far one of the top traits we pay attention to. It's not titles or ribbons but the characteristics / traits we are most concerned about. We also talk to other breeders that understand what German shepherds are suppose to be. Titles mean very little in my breeding program, particularly with today's dogs. Too much greed, money, and payoffs for titles have ruined the majority of dogs.


But can any pup that your program produces earn an IPO title if that is what the buyer wants to do with the pup? 8 generations and no titles, how do you project working ability?


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## Doc

How do you define work ability? There are no titles such as IPO for service, guide, wheelchair, brace/balance, and other work. History tells us that the German shepherd was the first and best at real life working situations. It doesn't say anything about titles being used to judge if a German shepherd is worthy to breed.
Many generations of dogs performing duties that helps a person live a better life is all I need to know.
I am not interested or concerned about breeding a dog that can get titles. I am concerned about breeding a dog that can serve those in need or make a family happy and proud. If someone wants a dog that can get titles such as IPO - I tell them to find another breeder.


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## holland

I saw a service dog at work yesterday-think it was a working line GSD-think that that would be awesome to be a breeder and have a dog really be a working dog...


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## bill

Working dog" yea the boy loved to work" he would work all day and night" fight drive" guarding instinct" well you best not mess around on his turf! Tested many times" biddible" lovable" brave" healthy" strong" athletic" why he could do anything" some of his family went to war! What did he do? He herded and guarded sheep" he was a working dog" he could do anything!! Just saying! Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## coachcj

This is a really great thread. Ironically, I've been having this conversation with a couple of friends . 
Am I against titles ? Absolutely not. I believe that they are a big piece of the puzzle. I just think that we have to be sure to look at the entire puzzle. I was one of the people who was totally into titles, but after seeing a few mediocre dogs get titled through great training(and unfortunately spending a lot of $$$$$), I've changed my tune a bit.
One thing that I've noticed is that it seems that the GSD community sometimes treats a "real working dog" , such as SAR K-9, police k-9, service dog , etc. as a second rate citizen. Of course all of these dogs aren't at the same level, but if they're working, then the dogs should at least possess good nerves. I believe that sometimes there is such an emphasis on drive, drive, drive that we forget about nerves, nerves, nerves and brains, brains, brains,lol . 

Another thing I think affects the breed is the constant importing (particularly male stud dogs). When you get a dog that's already a titled adult, you receive a finished product. It's probably get a great dog, but you miss a lot of subtleties about the dog-things like how the dog acts/reacts to new stimuli/environments BEFORE he's conditioned to it, how he matures, how he works with/for other people, how quickly he/she learns or gets discouraged. All of these things do and should matter,especially if the dog's offspring are going to be transitioned into real working situations. One of the most important things that any GSD owner can learn is learning to differentiate between the characteristics that come from the dog and seeing what comes from great training. Heck, it's a lifelong learning process.

At some point, it has to be addressed. We're having more and more titled dogs, and at the same time, Dutchies and Mals are replacing the GSD as "real working dogs". There is a disconnect somewhere.


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## robk

Doc said:


> How do you define work ability? There are no titles such as IPO for service, guide, wheelchair, brace/balance, and other work. History tells us that the German shepherd was the first and best at real life working situations. It doesn't say anything about titles being used to judge if a German shepherd is worthy to breed.
> Many generations of dogs performing duties that helps a person live a better life is all I need to know.
> I am not interested or concerned about breeding a dog that can get titles. I am concerned about breeding a dog that can serve those in need or make a family happy and proud. If someone wants a dog that can get titles such as IPO - I tell them to find another breeder.


I guess I just believe something different about the breed than you do. I believe a well bred GSD should be balanced enough to do what is needed out of it. He should be able to do IPO and then leave the field and be a great family companion. He should also be able to be a service dog if that is what is needed of him.


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## Doc

As Cliff and others who have lived with breed for 40 years will tell you. The specialization of sport and show has all but destroyed what a German shepherd was created to be. Sad but true.


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## onyx'girl

I see GSD's daily that haven't been ruined. So at least there is hope. And some of them even have titles!


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## Doc

Oh I'm sure you have. But across the board German shepherds are not near the dog they once were or what they were created to be. In a large part due to the importance people place on titles. The sport and show crowd have their own standard to judge dogs and neither resemble in structure or temperament the German shepherd Stephanitz created. If you think otherwise you do not know the historical roots of this breed.


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## onyx'girl

Yes, Doc, you remind us of that every time you post. Because we aren't dinosaurs or experienced. 
Justifying a breeding program due to earning titles or going for many titles in all different venues proves the breeder or stud owner is showing fortitude in proving what they are breeding is worthy. 
I'll still look at the total dog/breeders whole program before supporting one that is breeding for specific goals. Lack of titles tells me nothing, neither does the ones who are sent away for them.
Agree with robk:


> I guess I just believe something different about the breed than you do. I believe a well bred GSD should be balanced enough to do what is needed out of it. He should be able to do IPO and then leave the field and be a great family companion. He should also be able to be a service dog if that is what is needed of him.


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## Doc

You can believe what ever you want. I see no advantage of titles on true service dogs. If you want a show dog or a sport, sleeve biting dog then get your dogs from those who specialize in that. But don't poo poo breeders who have maintained balanced dogs for 40 years. It shows your lack of respect for the breed or a gross misunderstanding of what this breed was created for. Just a reminder, Schutzund was not created so a trainer or handler can manipulated a dog to score points. It is now a sporting contest and has little apication as to the breed worthyness of a dog.


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## onyx'girl

Who said I was referring to Schutzhund(_*all different venues*_)? You dis what you don't do, but don't really ever divulge what you actually do. Bringing Cliff's name into it? Why? 
This breed does have some great dogs, not sure where you go that you don't see them. I see wonderful representations of the breed daily and try to support the ones doing it right. Those that aren't doing it for the right reasons will always be around....
Accusing me of lack of respect and gross misunderstanding? Where do you come off knowing what I do or don't do?


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## Doc

Through your post Jane. You are right Jane, I'm crazy and really don't know anything. Peace out.


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## robk

We have a fairly new member at our club. He has a very nice looking solid black male. 3 years old. When I first saw him I was very impressed with the way he looked. His owner is very proud of him. Had copies of the pedigree to show anyone who was interested. 3 Generations ago every dog had an IPO title. Not a single title though in the last 2 generations. This dog so far has show very little. No interest in biting a tug. Will not make eye contact with the helper. backs up and looks for his owner on the tie out. Really not seeing any aptitude to do even very low level play type bite work. Maybe its there and just hasn't been awaken in him yet. Not really sure but it looks at least the protection work ability was lost in only 3 generations with no titles.


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## onyx'girl

Many things may play into the above dog...pedigree match/how it was raised from early on? 3 yrs old should be waking up however! Maybe it would make a great service dog?


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## Doc

So if a dog can't bite or fight, he is thrown into service. Your logic is brilliant.


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## onyx'girl

oh, please, enlighten me...


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## gsdsar

robk said:


> We have a fairly new member at our club. He has a very nice looking solid black male. 3 years old. When I first saw him I was very impressed with the way he looked. His owner is very proud of him. Had copies of the pedigree to show anyone who was interested. 3 Generations ago every dog had an IPO title. Not a single title though in the last 2 generations. This dog so far has show very little. No interest in biting a tug. Will not make eye contact with the helper. backs up and looks for his owner on the tie out. Really not seeing any aptitude to do even very low level play type bite work. Maybe its there and just hasn't been awaken in him yet. Not really sure but it looks at least the protection work ability was lost in only 3 generations with no titles.


Maybe, maybe not. Could be just this one dog out of the breeding. Dogs are individuals. They are more than a product of their pedigree. There are lots if things that owners can do that will suppress things, that teach dogs to be dependent on the owner. You can't just look at a pedigree and know the dog. Sorry. It's not that simple. If it was, every dog out if every litter from a reputable breeder would be perfect. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cliffson1

Great post CoachCJ.......a lot of wisdom in your words!


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## carmspack

agree Cliff and CoachCJ .

So I went to the obedience and protection portion of the Ontario Regionals yesterday. Conditions could not have been better , more enjoyable , like a custom ordered air conditioned day. Lucky to get a trial day like that . 

What you saw in the obedience portion was evident in the protection phase.
The dogs that were level in obedience were level and clear in the bite work , without being robotic in either . 
There were dogs that were noisy , showing they were not totally connected, distracted, "leaking" in obedience , that did not settle or find the off switch while the judge made his comments . They still focused on the decoy.

here is a female, that was in season so last competitor of the day.

picture taken by Wildwolf








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Had such a great weekend! 
__________________

SG S-Hunter vom Geistwasser 
*
"May my enemies live long so they can see me progress"*​ ​ ​ ​


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## carmspack

continuing ---- this female should guidability and handler connection .
Her good conformation and confidence allowed her to fly out and around each of the blinds and when in the blind , the bark revealed her emotional state , of being confident and in control .
Bite work had power and was clean on the outs .
The above picture shows her at the end of her test while the judge gives comments. The dog is relaxed and alert , composed . That is what the off switch looks like .
There were a few others similar , Yven (Renee's) and Ivo (Juergen's) come to mind.
Others that showed edge in obedience and after showed the same edge and lack of control in the bite work . 
Judging? 
Yes that makes a difference . One dog should have had less , one dog (female above) should have had more .

That is the point . If I showed you the titles or the score sheet you would not appreciate the big difference in what the actual dogs were like . They were very different . The performance was very different . Yet the points difference would not indicate that.


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## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> continuing ---- this female should guidability and handler connection .
> Her good conformation and confidence allowed her to fly out and around each of the blinds and when in the blind , the bark revealed her emotional state , of being confident and in control .
> Bite work had power and was clean on the outs .
> The above picture shows her at the end of her test while the judge gives comments. The dog is relaxed and alert , composed . That is what the off switch looks like .
> There were a few others similar , Yven (Renee's) and Ivo (Juergen's) come to mind.
> Others that showed edge in obedience and after showed the same edge and lack of control in the bite work .
> Judging?
> Yes that makes a difference . One dog should have had less , one dog (female above) should have had more .
> 
> That is the point . If I showed you the titles or the score sheet you would not appreciate the big difference in what the actual dogs were like . They were very different . The performance was very different . Yet the points difference would not indicate that.


This was a huge wake up call for me in regards to this very topic that is always ongoing in regards to titles and worthiness... in the sense that a dog that is scored a bit lower than the higher scoring dogs might be worth a lot more than the points allotted. 

You really cannot 100% form an opinion on a dog based on scores alone, because what was a beautiful obedience routine that was a true joy to watch and my favourite routine of the day, was scored low for what I (and a few others, Carmen included obviously) thought was right. 

This female did go high in trial and won, but I still feel like she deserved more than she was given for points in OB. Judge made comments that she was a bit slow, from my novice eyes the only thing I saw was a second command issued for the down after send out (she turned around and stood, instead of downed)... and I believe she was hovering a touch... but she really wasn't that slow... she wasn't lightning quick but she was precise and clear headed and so engaged with the handler, happy, calm, focused. Tail wagging, attention never straying from handler's eyes, beautiful position... no forging, no crowding, no lagging... I was envious! I wish I could have heeling like that with my male that crowds me a bit.

Super glad she placed 1st... she was a really lovely dog and the handler was wonderful, too... very calm and giving good signals and energy to the dog.


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## carmspack

she did everything with confidence and sense of purpose , the knowing that once you get there you can handle the situation.
Her conformation allowed her to cover distance without a lot of movement , and that movement looks like speed . There was no hesitation or lack of energy.
On the send out she went out fast, turned and then went partially down , braced herself , instead of a full down . Anticipation for the next command .


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## lsatov

I was also at the regionals I am so sorry that I had to leave and missed the female. Who says females can not get high in trial IPO3 in heat at Regionals. Hope to be there next year. Females rock.

I was there for the obedience routines, was not impressed with the judging of this, Judge was more interested in the completion of the actual exercises sit in motion dumbells ect but could care less about the acutal focus, heeling and connection with the handler. I do realize that in the higher level competition when all do and complete the exercises correctly the heeling component and focus will make the difference. But at this trial a dog with great heeling and focus and completion of the exercises was not much differientiated from a dog with terrible heeling infact it was so bad that I though initially it must be an IPO1.
Protection was where those with substandard obedience fell apart. Loss of precision, loss of control, loss of out and too focussed on a neutral decoy.
Great day, great weather. Routines much better that last year.


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## carmspack

and that is why I wanted to see the obedience , to see if there was a co-relation --- and there was .
I would put it to nerves and thresholds .

Maybe this is where we can get a turnaround and get dogs with better nerves .
The good obedience did not mean survile , or submissive at all , and I think that might be a misconception.

Dogs that can work well under direction , good handler tractability or ability to be lead , need the nerves because there is pressure that they have to work under.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I think obedience is again only part of the picture. I have seen weak dogs with great heeling, great focus etc etc. Alot of it is the trainer and lets face it the majority of training in Ontario is not exactly cutting edge. Plenty of stronger more independant dogs will not offer the same look in obedience as a more sporty dog. 
Jurgens dog Ivo is not only good on the field he produces himself consistently. I have seen pups from him at anywhere from 8weeks to 2 years. All very consistent. Great sport dogs, undoubtedly some would be great for LE work. Intense, drivey and generally sound. No DA or HA. No fear biters.


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## carmspack

I know Ivo and he is a normal , sound , stable dog.


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## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> I know Ivo and he is a normal , sound , stable dog.


Seen him several times now, and have nothing but good things to say about him and Jurgen. Met a few Ivo pups, that were really nice puppies.


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## lsatov

Agreed that a good handler can hold together and weak dog but that all falls apart in protection and tracking where the dog needs to be clear headed and be able to think in a more independant fashion (away from the handler and the support) This was evident at regionals poor scores in tracking and protections.

Ivo good solid dog, sport dog but not "sporty". Did not really see "sporty" dog performances as defined in a previous thread.

Ontario is at the present time lean on great dogs, many clubs were not there competing, perhaps they have up and coming dogs and not yet ready.


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## carmspack

were there any from the conformation group present as observers?


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## coachcj

cliffson1 said:


> Great post CoachCJ.......a lot of wisdom in your words!


Thank you sir !


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