# What are the more serious GSD lines?



## Julian G

Hi,
I am curious to know if there are any known serious/hard gsd lines left and what they are. Thanks for any and all information.


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## Steve Strom

Personally, I'd never mind lines and concentrate on breeders or someone you can trust to help you import or buy a dog. You can find whatever you want, if you deal with the right people.


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## Steve Strom

What happened to Dutch Shepherds? Not matching the hype?


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## Julian G

Steve Strom said:


> What happened to Dutch Shepherds? Not matching the hype?


Nothing happened. I want to learn more about GSD lines.


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## Steve Strom

No assumptions Julian, its just my firm opinion that you can read so much stuff about Czech, East German, West German, and none of it is as important as the the knowledge of the breeder and its always better to see then read. One person's "serious" is another's "Mule"


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## Julian G

Steve Strom said:


> No assumptions Julian, its just my firm opinion that you can read so much stuff about Czech, East German, West German, and none of it is as important as the the knowledge of the breeder and its always better to see then read. One person's "serious" is another's "Mule"


No worries, I didn't mean Czech vs DDR vs WGWL... I was more curious about the actual sire and dam lines known for producing more serious/hard dogs. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.


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## lhczth

What do you consider serious?


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## carmspack

I would consider active aggression , rather than the prey based dogs


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## Julian G

lhczth said:


> What do you consider serious?





carmspack said:


> I would consider active aggression , rather than the prey based dogs


A raw dog that stays in the fight under a lot of pressure. @carmspack, you may be right, but I have seen actively aggressive dogs who were this way because of an underlying fear.


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## carmspack

there is a difference between active and reactive aggression.

the difference is seen in the dog in the "normal" state - when no aggression of any sort is needed.

there is an aura of power and will


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## Julian G

carmspack said:


> there is a difference between active and reactive aggression.
> 
> the difference is seen in the dog in the "normal" state - when no aggression of any sort is needed.
> 
> there is an aura of power and will


Yes, there is an aura. It's a bit hard to explain but I feel as though I know it when I see it. Anyways, do you know of any lines like this?


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## Muskeg

My thoughts on this, why not just get a nice, social, confident, high drivey dog and work him or her in a protection sport with reputable people.

Learn all you can and title the dog. IPO, ring, something with a good reputation and good people in the sport.

You like that dog, and she's got what it takes, go ahead after that and train her in some basic PPD work. It's not a huge leap from IPO to PPD with most dogs. Even prey can be channeled into some pretty serious "aggression". 

I know next to nothing about GSD lines, except that I like what I see in some GSDs, when I see it. I am far more familiar with malinois pedigrees. 

Where are you living that you see a need for a dog staying in the fight? All it takes is one look at my big male staring at them from a sit at my side, and next to nobody will bother me. 

Many people have an almost primal fear of a big, strong, pointy-eared dog. Use that, and you won't need the dog to engage or stay in a fight, unless you are really in a bad area. And then-rock-paper-scissors... gun over dog. 

Of course I am assuming you've got rock solid OB and a good human-dog relationship.


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## Julian G

I have seen it a lot in Caucasian Shepherds.


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## Julian G

Muskeg said:


> My thoughts on this, why not just get a nice, social, confident, high drivey dog and work him or her in a protection sport with reputable people.
> 
> Learn all you can and title the dog. IPO, ring, something with a good reputation and good people in the sport.
> 
> You like that dog, and she's got what it takes, go ahead after that and train her in some basic PPD work. It's not a huge leap from IPO to PPD with most dogs. Even prey can be channeled into some pretty serious "aggression".
> 
> I know next to nothing about GSD lines, except that I like what I see in some GSDs, when I see it. I am far more familiar with malinois pedigrees.
> 
> Where are you living that you see a need for a dog staying in the fight? All it takes is one look at my big male staring at them from a sit at my side, and next to nobody will bother me.
> 
> Many people have an almost primal fear of a big, strong, pointy-eared dog. Use that, and you won't need the dog to engage or stay in a fight, unless you are really in a bad area. And then-rock-paper-scissors... gun over dog.
> 
> Of course I am assuming you've got rock solid OB and a good human-dog relationship.


Ugh, what are you even talking about? If you don't know the answer then don't go off on some assumption based rant. All I asked is which lines were known for producing serious/hard dogs. Maybe it's something I want to avoid? Maybe it's something I need? Maybe it's just something that I'm curious about? Doesn't matter, mind your own business please.


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## Muskeg

So get a CO. Good luck to you and your neighbors.

It becomes society's business, everyone's business, when people who refuse to educate themselves go around looking for the hardest dog they can find.


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## Steve Strom

Julian G said:


> No worries, I didn't mean Czech vs DDR vs WGWL... I was more curious about the actual sire and dam lines known for producing more serious/hard dogs. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.


I'd see different dogs ideally over time, through training and then the actual performance of the work or sport then see how the different opinions of serious, active,reactive, whatever, fits. It will give you a different perspective then taking the descriptions and opinions and trying to fit dogs into it. See what I mean?


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## Giovani

carmspack said:


> I would consider active aggression , rather than the prey based dogs


What are some of the differences between active aggression GSDs vs high prey drive GSDs? I believe I've had both but honestly not sure.


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## cloudpump

Julian G said:


> I have seen it a lot in Caucasian Shepherds.


On line or in real life? Theirs a huge difference. I can show you anything online. But real life it's a completely different manner.


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## MishkasMom

I know of one breeder/line of dogs (I've met 2 females from one breeding in person) that are for the lack of a better word INTENSE. I know she breeds working dogs and I've been around shepherds for most of my life, but never met any that had the drive/look that while not ever being afraid of dogs I was cautious about approaching. I'm in Canada but if you want the name of the breeder PM me. Not sure if she would consider you(or me, lol) for one of her pups, I never met her but heard she is very specific about who her dogs go to.


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## cdwoodcox

Julian G said:


> Hi,
> I am curious to know if there are any known serious/hard gsd lines left and what they are. Thanks for any and all information.


Do you mean like SCH/IPO, military, K9, or just down right mean watch dogs. When I think of a hard German Shepherd for some reason I automatically go to closed line Czech German Shepherd, and closed line DDR german shepherd. Dogs of the past. Maybe a couple breeders that have been able to keep the lines closed but most are a mix of different lines.


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## Julian G

Muskeg said:


> So get a CO. Good luck to you and your neighbors.
> 
> It becomes society's business, everyone's business, when people who refuse to educate themselves go around looking for the hardest dog they can find.


Yep that's exactly what I'm doing Sherlock. You sure seem to have me all figured out


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## carmspack

here are some dogs fitting that description

Monchi Malatesta Monchi von Malatesta 

Lewis Malatesta AND his sire Mink Wittfeld Lewis von Malatesta

Addi Tonteichen Addi von den Tonteichen

Alf and Akut Lablapega Akut Lablapega

Lord Gleisdreieck Lord vom Gleisdreieck

starting to put things together Carmspack Mirko Carmspack Mirko 

Carmspack Chunko (decoys choice - Nationals) and his brother Simon Carmspack Chunko

Cito T T H Cito vom Haus TTH

Carmspack Tyko Carmspack Tyko

Boris Trogenbach Boris vom Trogenbach (1973) 

Link Muikenshof Link van Muikenshof

Ina and Ira haus Gard Ina vom Haus Gard

Verwin Blitsaerd Verwin van Blitsaerd

Orry v h Antverpa Orry von Haus Antverpa

Ouchie v d Schiffslache Ouchie von der Schiffslache

there are others 

if you go through the pedigrees you will see a theme , a continuity


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## cliffson1

Get a dog from Tiekerhook kennels, he breeds for that " type" of dog. Doesn't mean your specific pup will grow up into that, anymore than breeding that type of adult dog will produce that type of puppy. It takes a real expert that has been breeding the same foundation stock, who has knowledge and intent to produce that type of dog to be able to develop that type " line". I would say Koos of Tiekerhook, and Jiri of Jinopo are probably as close as you get.


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## cliffson1

One last things, that doesn't mean every breeding from them will be like that....because they recognize the need for balancing genetics, some of their breeding/dogs will not be of that nature, but they both have the genetics in their lines to have certain breedings that are of the type you asked about.


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## cdwoodcox

There's this girl. She seems to fit the pedigree requirements. 
Gina Jipo-Me


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## cdwoodcox

This little girl is a Gina jipo offspring. Young enough to still be relevant today. Vanvan Jipo-Me
Do you guys think that pedigrees like these were common or expected back in the day. With both of my dogs pedigree seems to be active with SCH, IPO, etc.... 4 generations back. Seems when Americans got the dogs and wanted to make profit without working the dogs the pedigrees went to ****.


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## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> here are some dogs fitting that description
> 
> Monchi Malatesta Monchi von Malatesta
> 
> Lewis Malatesta AND his sire Mink Wittfeld Lewis von Malatesta
> 
> Addi Tonteichen Addi von den Tonteichen
> 
> Alf and Akut Lablapega Akut Lablapega
> 
> Lord Gleisdreieck Lord vom Gleisdreieck
> 
> starting to put things together Carmspack Mirko Carmspack Mirko
> 
> Carmspack Chunko (decoys choice - Nationals) and his brother Simon Carmspack Chunko
> 
> Cito T T H Cito vom Haus TTH
> 
> Carmspack Tyko Carmspack Tyko
> 
> Boris Trogenbach Boris vom Trogenbach (1973)
> 
> Link Muikenshof Link van Muikenshof
> 
> Ina and Ira haus Gard Ina vom Haus Gard
> 
> Verwin Blitsaerd Verwin van Blitsaerd
> 
> Orry v h Antverpa Orry von Haus Antverpa
> 
> Ouchie v d Schiffslache Ouchie von der Schiffslache
> 
> there are others
> 
> if you go through the pedigrees you will see a theme , a continuity



Carmen and I generally agree at least 75% of the time....a few here I haven't seen much of, and one I don't agree with because what I have seen from the line has not stood up in nerves/confidence consistently enough...

I will agree especially with Lord and Orry/Verwin....I prefer Mink to go through Jago Lindenhalle only....


The key to me is consistency in a litter.....when a litter is all over the place, to the point that a breeder culls, then to me it negates what he is producing because he is still passing on the genetics that caused him to cull.....a couple breeders well known for "hard" dogs are also well known for culling their litters down to those pups they feel fit their images....


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfstraum said:


> ....I prefer Mink to go through Jago Lindenhalle only....



Could you elaborate please?


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## zetti

:wink2:


cdwoodcox said:


> Do you mean like SCH/IPO, military, K9, or just down right mean watch dogs. When I think of a hard German Shepherd for some reason I automatically go to closed line Czech German Shepherd, and closed line DDR german shepherd. Dogs of the past. Maybe a couple breeders that have been able to keep the lines closed but most are a mix of different lines.


If I started a new thread would anyone be interested in a discussion of Czech lines?


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## wolfstraum

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Could you elaborate please?



I think that is pretty clear. If I do a breeding that will have Mink in the sire, I want it to go through Jago.....other wise, I keep looking.


Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfstraum said:


> I think that is pretty clear. If I do a breeding that will have Mink in the sire, I want it to go through Jago.....other wise, I keep looking.
> 
> 
> Lee


Oh, I understood that. 

I was just curious as to why your preferences were for Mink through Jago only. 

I am always open to learning about individual dogs and how/why they are used in pedigrees.


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## wolfstraum

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Oh, I understood that.
> 
> I was just curious as to why your preferences were for Mink through Jago only.
> 
> I am always open to learning about individual dogs and how/why they are used in pedigrees.


Just a personal preference based on experience of people I know well who have other crosses, dogs I have seen and people I have talked to who used other lines....very sucessfully for sure at times but my goals are pretty specific and I am a very low risk person....

Lee


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## Shooter

Muskeg, great post!
Keys to success! Keep it simple because simple is generally better. 

#1


Muskeg said:


> My thoughts on this, why not just get a nice, social, confident, high drivey dog and work him or her in a protection sport with reputable people.


#2


Muskeg said:


> All it takes is one look at my big male staring at them from a sit at my side, and next to nobody will bother me.


#3


Muskeg said:


> Many people have an almost primal fear of a big, strong, pointy-eared dog. Use that, and you won't need the dog to engage or stay in a fight, unless you are really in a bad area. And then-rock-paper-scissors... gun over dog.


#4 


Muskeg said:


> Of course I am assuming you've got rock solid OB and a good human-dog relationship.


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## carmspack

Shooter said:


> Muskeg, great post!
> Keys to success! Keep it simple because simple is generally better.
> 
> #1
> 
> 
> #2
> 
> 
> #3
> 
> 
> #4


except that it isn't simple.

the breed has had a shift over the years .
IPO points dogs have more flash , speed , higher prey , aggression is reactive.

it is harder to find active aggression .

I will add another serious dog -- Gento Larwin !
and another Link Muikenshof . and the "Bungalow" dogs.

If you were to look at the pedigrees I did provide you will see DDR dog Robby Glockeneck 
( INGO RUDIGEN / Ex Reidstern)

As far as kennels and overall impact ANTVERPA !!!

more than one Antverpa dog has been used to cross paths with my stuff.

a very successful combination was a litter where I recommended Vyck Antverpa for one of my working females Carmspack Mokka Peters

when bred to Vyck -- all but one went to work in law enforcement in some capacity . I held back that "one" as a breeding female (Power).

sire and dam of this pup were both certified working dogs in LE -- Carmspack Stark Bax 

if you click on to the names on the furthest right of the pedigree you will see many of the names which I have mentioned.

basically all dogs from the Stark pedigree ended up in work and personal protection

and here is Stark !!!! some 8 years later
Erie County Blotter

study the Antverpa pedigrees


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## Julian G

carmspack said:


> except that it isn't simple.
> 
> the breed has had a shift over the years .
> IPO points dogs have more flash , speed , higher prey , aggression is reactive.
> 
> it is harder to find active aggression .
> 
> I will add another serious dog -- Gento Larwin !
> and another Link Muikenshof . and the "Bungalow" dogs.
> 
> If you were to look at the pedigrees I did provide you will see DDR dog Robby Glockeneck
> ( INGO RUDIGEN / Ex Reidstern)
> 
> As far as kennels and overall impact ANTVERPA !!!
> 
> more than one Antverpa dog has been used to cross paths with my stuff.
> 
> a very successful combination was a litter where I recommended Vyck Antverpa for one of my working females Carmspack Mokka Peters
> 
> when bred to Vyck -- all but one went to work in law enforcement in some capacity . I held back that "one" as a breeding female (Power).
> 
> sire and dam of this pup were both certified working dogs in LE -- Carmspack Stark Bax
> 
> if you click on to the names on the furthest right of the pedigree you will see many of the names which I have mentioned.
> 
> basically all dogs from the Stark pedigree ended up in work and personal protection
> 
> and here is Stark !!!! some 8 years later
> Erie County Blotter
> 
> study the Antverpa pedigrees


 @carmspack you are so right. What many people don't understand is that these lines are needed for certain people. For LE dealing in hostage situations, raids, takedowns these kinds of lines are needed. For families looking for that extra bit of security. For business owners who have to carry thousands of dollars in cash from their store to the bank every day (which is how Rottweilers originated). For victims of violent crimes who can't sleep at night without this kind of dog present. For people living in big cities like Chicago and NY where guns are illegal but still these places experience thousands of shootings annually because only the criminals get to carry guns for protection. The main reason I started this thread was because I was reading how the best PPD have some offensive aggression, or forward aggression and you called it active aggression. It is a pretty fascinating topic, and even more so that it's so hard to find these days.


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## cliffson1

Talk to knowledgeable people of the venues that use the type of dog you desire. As one poster wrote, the specialization and nuances of the different directions of breeding has greatly altered the breed. The sport people are as knowledgeable about PPD/LE type dogs as the show people are of sport dogs. They all live in different worlds with different end goals, valuing different attributes in the breed.
Pet people have even less insight. Now I don't mean this degradingly at all, different strokes for different folks; but just like sport people don't don't focus on what wins in conformation ring, or show people don't focus on what will excel on sport field.....neither of them are anything but marginally focused on what constitutes a good PPD/LE or the breeders or experts that deal in this world. Sure, some think they do, but I have seen so many sport people feel that X dog would be a good LE dog solely because of aggression?.
Talk to breeders that have bred dogs that consistently have become LE or PPD dogs, not folks who occasionally produce one. These breeders are out there....do your homework.


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## Julian G

cliffson1 said:


> Talk to knowledgeable people of the venues that use the type of dog you desire. As one poster wrote, the specialization and nuances of the different directions of breeding has greatly altered the breed. The sport people are as knowledgeable about PPD/LE type dogs as the show people are of sport dogs. They all live in different worlds with different end goals, valuing different attributes in the breed.
> Pet people have even less insight. Now I don't mean this degradingly at all, different strokes for different folks; but just like sport people don't don't focus on what wins in conformation ring, or show people don't focus on what will excel on sport field.....neither of them are anything but marginally focused on what constitutes a good PPD/LE or the breeders or experts that deal in this world. Sure, some think they do, but I have seen so many sport people feel that X dog would be a good LE dog solely because of aggression?.
> Talk to breeders that have bred dogs that consistently have become LE or PPD dogs, not folks who occasionally produce one. These breeders are out there....do your homework.


I completely agree and I've said this before; Just because a dog bites on the field doesn't mean they will bite in a real life situation. What we see on the field is a routine. There is a breeder who I won't mention the name of, but he shows what his dogs are capable of by setting up real life scenarios such as car jackings, home invasions, child abductions. He also gives a few very informative tips on what NOT to do when purchasing his dogs because he knows they are as serious as a heart attack. This breeder does not compete in any dog sports but his dogs have a proven track record of becoming successful LE and PPD.


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## carmspack

give an example of one of the pedigrees, or any stud , or any of the females.


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## carmspack

study the pedigrees 

study Lord Gleisdreieck and discover the Ex Riedstern content and connection

look at Kutter vom Landesberg 

(look at Astor Waldidyll (sire of Arko Honest (another name to add to the list) and see the content and connection to Ex Riedstern 

study Held, Golf, Ritterberg and understand the beauty of power combination of Bernd Lierberg and Ex Riedstern !!

understand the contribution of Tula Antverpa -- again a Ex x Bernd power combination.

People have forgotten the real Kirschental dogs -- Uwe and Urban Uwe vom Kirschental

most only know the trialing dogs which are high percentage show line -- not at all the same 

Those Uwe and Urban produced naturally hard dogs.


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## Julian G

carmspack said:


> give an example of one of the pedigrees, or any stud , or any of the females.


I believe his dogs are out of the van leeuwen lines. These are knpv dogs.


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## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> study the pedigrees
> 
> study Lord Gleisdreieck and discover the Ex Riedstern content and connection
> 
> look at Kutter vom Landesberg
> 
> (look at Astor Waldidyll (sire of Arko Honest (another name to add to the list) and see the content and connection to Ex Riedstern
> 
> study Held, Golf, Ritterberg and understand the beauty of power combination of Bernd Lierberg and Ex Riedstern !!
> 
> understand the contribution of Tula Antverpa -- again a Ex x Bernd power combination.
> 
> People have forgotten the real Kirschental dogs -- Uwe and Urban Uwe vom Kirschental
> 
> 
> most only know the trialing dogs which are high percentage show line -- not at all the same
> 
> Those Uwe and Urban produced naturally hard dogs.



awwww Kutter! Had planned a breeding to him with Csabre but snowstorms and travel screwed me up....

I think the strength in my female family is directly tied to the strong influence of Ex/Bernd etc behind Kira Frolich Haus.....I know most did not like her sire, but the the breeding worked well and has continued through 3 more generations consistantly....


Lee


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## Julian G

wolfstraum said:


> awwww Kutter! Had planned a breeding to him with Csabre but snowstorms and travel screwed me up....
> 
> I think the strength in my female family is directly tied to the strong influence of Ex/Bernd etc behind Kira Frolich Haus.....I know most did not like her sire, but the the breeding worked well and has continued through 3 more generations consistantly....
> 
> 
> Lee


You know, the more I think about it, I think a "serious" line is one proven to produce successful military and LE dogs. Not just sport.


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## Steve Strom

Julian G said:


> You know, the more I think about it, I think a "serious" line is one proven to produce successful military and LE dogs. Not just sport.


I don't honestly think its that cut and dried. There's good dogs in both and there's crap dogs in both. Dogs that can do both or wash out from one and go to the other. A good dog is a good dog, and that's what everyone is looking for. I don't know if you've spent any time yet looking at some of the dogs pedigree's that were linked. If you do, post what you've found and thought. I tend to just accept dogs beyond a certain point back in generations were good if they were looked at that way then. Maybe its because I don't have an interest in breeding, but I've never really been able to follow a whole lot going from the past to the current on pedigrees. I do better going back from current and being able to see certain dogs that come up more often in so many pedigrees. 

I tend to focus on the sire/dam and a couple generations back to see more of whats been maintained as far as working or sport and just take the breeders word for the older dogs. Maybe even just laziness on my part, but trying to figure out how the dog of 30yrs ago is really that critical after so many breedings and crosses of all those different combinations, I'll just go along with it.


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## carmspack

yes Kutter ----

got him locked away -- in a young female 

breeding goes back to one of my females which had 
Dix Maineiche x Racker X Bernd (droll vd schopf)

to Kilo (Bernd x Ingo) X Linda (Bernd x Ex)

Asko Schloss Zweibruggen (Racker and Vefa Kirschental ) 
and Busecker Schloss and old Bungalow.

plans for the future


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## carmspack

there were two ways the OP's question could have been answered.

one would have lead to - where can I find , where can I buy "this" type

the other leads to how to "make" how to ensure that dogs of this type have a future 

so that they are consistent to breeders and to litters and not flukes.

no one buying a dog for end user work-use will dissect a pedigree or care where it came from.
all they care about is what can this dog do for me . end of story.

unless breeders pay attention to and understand the genetics then these types of dogs will fade away.


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## carmspack

"how to "make" how to ensure that dogs of this type have a future 
so that they are consistent to breeders and to litters and not flukes."

so I was thinking on Antverpa and how significant an impact they had on hard , emotionally durable dogs -- 

I thought of another line that should be focused on and that is Nessel Antverpa -- 

the ladies at von der Polizei , a breeding program that was very consistent in producing a legacy of working LE
dogs -- foundation was Nessel Antverpa.

ms wolstraum , I think you did well by Nessel.

I did well with Nessel through his daughter Queenie .

Carmspack Alza

which developed into this http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1923316-carmspack-stark 
now 8 years later happily retired http://www.eriecoblotter.com/single...Retirement-Officer-Howe-K9-Stark---Buffalo-PD

there was consistency -- basically all the males went to work - except for Mathias who I kept back and a female that went to TD


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## wolfstraum

Julian G said:


> You know, the more I think about it, I think a "serious" line is one proven to produce successful military and LE dogs. Not just sport.



My K litter was one I feel was super consistent, and very workable....yet all stable companion dogs......my male Komet was started in protection by a former K9 officer/mondio ring trainer, in a group that was mostly LE K9 guys - to a one, they pronounced him a LEK9 not an IPO sport dog....I turned down offer after offer to place him in a department....I then was able to let a friend take him for training....the friend is very experienced in IPO (won USCA National/HOT National/3 x WUSV/1x FCI) and titling....was told he was top level competition capable...life keeps getting in the way of him competing unfortunately....but the dog is a super tempered house dog, good with kids, small dogs, cats.....

K litter's dam was from my C litter, whose dam was by a LE K9, and the litter produced a LE dual purpose K9 who was also certified wilderness SAR along with patrol and narcotics.

Serious does not preclude sport or companionship....Serious is what the breed is supposed to be along with stable and versatile.


Lee


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## Julian G

wolfstraum said:


> My K litter was one I feel was super consistent, and very workable....yet all stable companion dogs......my male Komet was started in protection by a former K9 officer/mondio ring trainer, in a group that was mostly LE K9 guys - to a one, they pronounced him a LEK9 not an IPO sport dog....I turned down offer after offer to place him in a department....I then was able to let a friend take him for training....the friend is very experienced in IPO (won USCA National/HOT National/3 x WUSV/1x FCI) and titling....was told he was top level competition capable...life keeps getting in the way of him competing unfortunately....but the dog is a super tempered house dog, good with kids, small dogs, cats.....
> 
> K litter's dam was from my C litter, whose dam was by a LE K9, and the litter produced a LE dual purpose K9 who was also certified wilderness SAR along with patrol and narcotics.
> 
> Serious does not preclude sport or companionship....Serious is what the breed is supposed to be along with stable and versatile.
> 
> 
> Lee


I would love to see the pedigrees and more details about your dogs but your site doesn't appear to have been updated since 2011 :frown2:


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## holland

wolfstraum said:


> My K litter was one I feel was super consistent, and very workable....yet all stable companion dogs......my male Komet was started in protection by a former K9 officer/mondio ring trainer, in a group that was mostly LE K9 guys - to a one, they pronounced him a LEK9 not an IPO sport dog....I turned down offer after offer to place him in a department....I then was able to let a friend take him for training....the friend is very experienced in IPO (won USCA National/HOT National/3 x WUSV/1x FCI) and titling....was told he was top level competition capable...life keeps getting in the way of him competing unfortunately....but the dog is a super tempered house dog, good with kids, small dogs, cats.....
> 
> K litter's dam was from my C litter, whose dam was by a LE K9, and the litter produced a LE dual purpose K9 who was also certified wilderness SAR along with patrol and narcotics.
> 
> Serious does not preclude sport or companionship....Serious is what the breed is supposed to be along with stable and versatile.
> 
> 
> Lee



There are a number of Tiekerhook (can't spell) dogs in the pedigree and Orry V Antverpa-also Condon An sat--
have seen a number of dogs I like with Condon in the pedigree


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## wolfstraum

My L's, another generation along, are sired by a dog linebred on Cordan An Sat - another very serious dog - sire is an active SAR dog, one girl is SAR adn the other doing IPO, but again, a serious dog.


Lee


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## wolfstraum

Julian G said:


> I would love to see the pedigrees and more details about your dogs but your site doesn't appear to have been updated since 2011 :frown2:


3 computers, 2 operating systems ago!!! and can't get into the files on the host   site.....


K, L and N litters on PDB - the J and M are different families.....M female related to C/I/K/L/N via Xito Maineiche - but not through female lines


Lee


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## astrovan2487

Julian here is pedigree info for some of the dogs Lee is talking about,
Komet von Wolfstraum
Csabre von Wolfstraum
My pup is out of Kira von Wolfstraum, very nice female, has an HGH title. I see her brother Kougar very often at club, really like this dog, intense in protection, working on getting his IPO2.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sid v haus Pixner...period


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## cloudpump

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sid v haus Pixner...period


What do you like about him?


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## lhczth

For active aggression and fight drive, Iko, Jenni and Jalk Lindenhalle. The latter two were different dogs than their brother Jago and produced differently. Ernst Weinberblick (a Lewis Malatesta son). Matsch Bungalow, Ira Körbelbach, Arek Stoffelblick.

A very strong up and coming dog with excellent aggression is: Gazze von der kleinen Birke


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## lhczth

I have had different experiences with Sid than Blitz. Except for one dog, most were not serious dogs and these were all out of different females. These were all direct Sid sons and daughters. The one serious dog was out of a bitch that went back on Ira Körbelbach and Matsch Bungalow very close in the pedigree so I attribute his seriousness to the mother.


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## cliffson1

Lisa, your post on Jenni, Jalk is right on money from my perspective. Actually, all the dogs you named are excellent sources of aggression.
As for Sid, I also agree with you that a lot of what Sid produced depended on who he was bred to. I have also owned two Sid sons besides seeing other sons/daughters. The Sid son out of a Tom z PS daughter became highly acclaimed LE dog. The son out of an Ellute daughter was great sport candidate but not enough fight for LE work. Both had great nerve and big time grips, but one had good active aggression, while the other was a sleeve sucker. Both were nice dogs, neither were crap....but one fit this thread the other wouldn't.


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## astrovan2487

A few other's you might want to look into that have caught my attention have Sitz von der Hose in the pedigree. Also Yogy Policia Slovakia has produced 2 dual purpose K-9's in recent litters. Though I'm a bit biased…
Apollo Vom Solveig
Bishop von Ibso
Chapo von Ibso


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## Julian G

All of your responses are great. I contacted a few breeders, and only one of them out right said that a serious PPD must have social aggression.


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## Deb

Just curious, Julian. Is there a reason you need a PPD? I thought you wanted to do IPO?


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## Julian G

Deb said:


> Just curious, Julian. Is there a reason you need a PPD? I thought you wanted to do IPO?


In the beginning I thought IPO would lay the groundwork for a PPD. Then I learned that this is not always the case. An experienced trainer said that here in the states, PSA is the best sport to lay a foundation down for PPD. Yes, there is a reason I need a PPD but I would rather not discuss it here. You asked for pics of by bros dog, tried to get it up last night, having trouble for some reason, it only uploads the file name. Will try again.

** I deleted the mess of code since it hadn't worked for you. ADMIN***


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## Julian G

Well that was a fail


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## Deb

Julian G said:


> Well that was a fail


It happens. If it's on your computer try using the paper clip to attach a picture.


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## Julian G

Deb said:


> It happens. If it's on your computer try using the paper clip to attach a picture.


I did, and instead of the picture it loads that long code.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Julian G said:


> I did, and instead of the picture it loads that long code.


Have you tried using the 7th symbol over on the short menu?


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## Deb

Try going to advanced to put a picture in. Then you can hit preview and see if the picture is attached or if you have to try again.


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## DDRGSD56

carmspack said:


> study the pedigrees
> 
> study Lord Gleisdreieck and discover the Ex Riedstern content and connection
> 
> look at Kutter vom Landesberg
> 
> (look at Astor Waldidyll (sire of Arko Honest (another name to add to the list) and see the content and connection to Ex Riedstern
> 
> study Held, Golf, Ritterberg and understand the beauty of power combination of Bernd Lierberg and Ex Riedstern !!
> 
> understand the contribution of Tula Antverpa -- again a Ex x Bernd power combination.
> 
> People have forgotten the real Kirschental dogs -- Uwe and Urban Uwe vom Kirschental
> 
> most only know the trialing dogs which are high percentage show line -- not at all the same
> 
> Those Uwe and Urban produced naturally hard dogs.


THis was my best dog and he was ver yserious wit hstrong nerves and excellent discernment, and biddable!

Kane Z Westwood

linebred 4-3 on Astor

had HELD Ritterberg

i think he had EX like 11 or 13 times in his ped


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## mycobraracr

One of the dogs I follow that produces an edge I like is Zeppe van't steyneveld. He's past now, but I've worked a decent number of dogs out of him and now gand-progeny. I like the edge he brings along with a bond to handler like no other line I've seen. If you look through his pedigree, you'll see a decent number of the dogs already mentioned.


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## cliffson1

4-5 on Robby Glockeneck(sp).....ya think you might get some good aggression....lol. I have NO doubts they did!


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## Julian G

I am coming back to this thread, there was a GSD that I had seen in a training video many months ago and he was a very civil dog. I wonder if he was that way because of abusive training methods, because I have done research on many of the dogs you guys have mentioned and none have displayed the natural aggression that I saw in that video from many months ago. I wish I can locate it now just to show you guys and gain your opinion on the dog.


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## mycobraracr

The video would be nice. Also the dogs pedigree as I'm interested. There are many different levels of civil aggression and I have my own theories of where it comes from, drives and so on. So they don't always look the same. Seriousness and active aggression can take on different forms.


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## Chip18

Julian G said:


> I have seen it a lot in Caucasian Shepherds.


You have a CS as a factor in your analysis??? That would kinda throw your curve ... I would imagine??? Well at least you'd not have to dress one up like a "Bunny" to work in low temps. 

You ask a lot of questions which is great and you get lots of input from members experienced in this field. No one is trying to tell you what kind of "GSD" you should or shouldn't get,. But I think they are "suggesting" that starting out (if that is what your doing) at the "Pointy End of the Spear" as it were, would perhaps maybe, possibly not the best way to go????


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## lhczth

There is definitely a difference in active aggression/fight drive and reactive aggression/defense. Seeing a video could be helpful.


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## lhczth

There used to be a great website with videos showing the different drives when testing dogs for police work. Unfortunately the site has expired.


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## Julian G

lhczth said:


> There is definitely a difference in active aggression/fight drive and reactive aggression/defense. Seeing a video could be helpful.





lhczth said:


> There used to be a great website with videos showing the different drives when testing dogs for police work. Unfortunately the site has expired.


Is active aggression identifiable by just the bark and behavior prior to the bite? Or is it ONLY identifiable by the bark and behavior? Because I think a good bite looks the same throughout the different forms of aggression. Meaning a good full bite is a good full bite.


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## cliffson1

Active aggression is identifiable by experience and reading the dog. There are many different ways a dog may exhibit active aggression in action and posture.jmo


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## cliffson1

Good active aggression can come through Ingo v Rudigen, especially through Lord v Gleisdreick coming through Manto v Kaltenback(sp).....very strong active aggression. That is one source, of course there are others.


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## Julian G

cliffson1 said:


> Active aggression is identifiable by experience and reading the dog. There are many different ways a dog may exhibit active aggression in action and posture.jmo





cliffson1 said:


> Good active aggression can come through Ingo v Rudigen, especially through Lord v Gleisdreick coming through Manto v Kaltenback(sp).....very strong active aggression. That is one source, of course there are others.


Lord v Gleisdreick was phenomenal. It feels like even with the right genetics and training, the stars must align to produce a dog like that.


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## Muskeg

Why is Lord v Gleisdreik considered so phenomenal? 

Where exactly do you see this "active" aggression. Is it in the barking, the dog looking at the helper's face? Body language? He's definitely on the edge of control in the OB part of the work.


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## cliffson1

Why is Lord considered so phenomenal? Let me count the ways.....
He is an absolute great source of hunt drive; which in turn produced tremendously strong tracking dogs and strong nosework necessary in LE work. 
He gave good nerve and substance.
He was known for above average hip contribution
No, he would not be a great source of sport dogs, but great source for working dogs. He also was a good source of active aggression and good fight when coming through or combined with some lines/dogs.


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## cliffson1

No dog is perfect, but when you can count on them for consistency in certain attributes, knowledgeable breeders can make the right choices to compliment and enhance the weaknesses of the dogs with their breeding mates.


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> Why is Lord considered so phenomenal? Let me count the ways.....
> He is an absolute great source of hunt drive; which in turn produced tremendously strong tracking dogs and strong nosework necessary in LE work.
> He gave good nerve and substance.
> He was known for above average hip contribution
> No, he would not be a great source of sport dogs, but great source for working dogs. He also was a good source of active aggression and good fight when coming through or combined with some lines/dogs.


An excellent dog for keeping balance in the breed.


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## cliffson1

One of best females I ever had was out of a Lord son and Tiekerhook daughter....balance! As Lisa says!


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## wolfstraum

Lord - did I get lucky!!!!!!!!!!!! My first Sch3 female, who I got at 4 months (~17 years ago!) and not knowing a whole heck of a lot at the time, was 2-5,5 on Lord - with lots of Ex Reidstein, haus Himple and a few other notables.

The source of strength and hunt drive in my female lines.....and as stated above - working dogs not just sport dogs



Lee


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## carmspack

wolfstraum said:


> Lord - did I get lucky!!!!!!!!!!!! My first Sch3 female, who I got at 4 months (~17 years ago!) and not knowing a whole heck of a lot at the time, was 2-5,5 on Lord - with lots of Ex Reidstein, haus Himple and a few other notables.
> 
> The source of strength and hunt drive in my female lines.....and as stated above - working dogs not just sport dogs
> 
> 
> 
> Lee


those are the bricks in my fort too .


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## Espo4442

Without cheating, does this look like a pedigree that would produce active aggression/seriousness?


Litter from Max ze Stribrneho kamene and Gitta s Cagova Raje


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## cliffson1

I think I would assess this breeding as not one that I would go to for active aggression, BUT because of the dam line one that could produce active aggression in a minority of puppies.(1 out of 4 or possibly two out of 9/10)
I also think this aggression has better chance of being in female pup than male. I do think this breeding could produce some very nice working drives and temperament.


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## Julian G

Is active aggression always on or is it triggered? I have a friend who has a presa canario, if he doesn't know you then he wants to kill you. It's black and white to him, if he knows you he's cool, if he doesn't then he's fixated on killing you. My friend won't walk him any more, too much of a liability.


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## cliffson1

Discernment is not a strong part of that breeds makeup. It was a vital part of the makeup of the German Shepherd, initially as herding dog and guard/LE dog. Today, discernment is not so much part of the breeding programs as breeders actively breed AWAY from traits that are necessary to herding/guard/LE type of work. So many pet breeders/BYB are breeding for socialite temperament that does not require discernment because there is no active aggression in the dog.


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## Espo4442

cliffson1 said:


> I think I would assess this breeding as not one that I would go to for active aggression, BUT because of the dam line one that could produce active aggression in a minority of puppies.(1 out of 4 or possibly two out of 9/10)
> I also think this aggression has better chance of being in female pup than male. I do think this breeding could produce some very nice working drives and temperament.



Breeding resulted in very dominate and real aggression but great temperament when not working. Sire was known for active aggression and motherline bringing real aggression and hardness thru Tito (allegedly)


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## wolfstraum

I can see Tito having hardness and aggression - 4x to Drigon, thus to Enno Antrefftal and then Sagus, Racker and Grief....all reportedly sources of same positives....


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## Espo4442

I would imagine dogs with lots of Greif zum Lahntal with bring seriousness. Sid/Sindy mix as well lol


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> Discernment is not a strong part of that breeds makeup. It was a vital part of the makeup of the German Shepherd, initially as herding dog and guard/LE dog. Today, discernment is not so much part of the breeding programs as breeders actively breed AWAY from traits that are necessary to herding/guard/LE type of work. So many pet breeders/BYB are breeding for socialite temperament that does not require discernment because there is no active aggression in the dog.


you can't compare a presa canario to a GSD .

there is no complexity in the presa . Single purpose development .
No balance . No shifting or judgement .

It is a vital part of the makeujp of the GSD .

I totally agree that in the keeping of all the traits and balances of the GSD's character you have a solid base for predictability in the dog and in being able to meet your expectations . 

when you start to chip away and remove foundations in the breed specific character , then you have instability and you never know which way or when the structure will collapse.

I think this is with the show lines "So many pet breeders/BYB are breeding for socialite temperament that does not require discernment because there is no active aggression in the dog.[/QUOTE]"


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## carmspack

Espo4442 said:


> I would imagine dogs with lots of Greif zum Lahntal with bring seriousness. Sid/Sindy mix as well lol


I believe I have said this before in this thread -- study Alfred Hahn's Busecker Schloss breedings and you will see a deliberate programme to keep GENETICALLY hard dogs.

they have to be rock solid, determined, able to meet challenges and difficulties both by adversary, environment or other conditions (thinking tracking and hunt/search here), and even from a handler.

the active aggression enables the dog to challenge the adversary, not just defend and certainly not engage in a play scenario for the sleeve .

sometimes you see this in the pause when the decoy is still .

all of these and grip are missing from the show and pet bred lines in the effort to make a "friendly" as Cliff said socialite of a dog .


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## Espo4442

I like Alfred's quote of "During the hold and bark in the blind, you can see and hear the soul of the dog". Ironically I talk more people out of buying german shepherds than I do suggesting the breed. I don't believe this breed is for every dog owner nor should it be.


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## carmspack

Espo4442 said:


> I like Alfred's quote of "During the hold and bark in the blind, you can see and hear the soul of the dog". Ironically I talk more people out of buying german shepherds than I do suggesting the breed. I don't believe this breed is for every dog owner nor should it be.


as do I . The breed shouldn't change to the the demands of the customer base.
A breeder should be concerned with creating the very best, most correct , breed representative and then make that dog available to the right owner , (which is not determined by cash in pocket).

in another thread there was a call to arms to bring pet breeders on board to fill the gap between supply and demand -- 

I don't think so.


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## cliffson1

@Espo4442..... I don't question what you say about Max and damline. Actually, I found that the dam line is capable of good aggression. But there are other dogs in the pedigree that factor in. I have had two dogs from Ellute in Grandfather role and neither had good aggression. Excellent nerve, great grips, and great prey but not what I consider active aggression. Actually, I like Max's dam line better than sire line for source of active aggression. I've had granddaughter of Beemoan Bee, another solid dog, but not active aggression. Grief, and Tito were good source, as could be Querry, but when you talk about Sandy/Sven, who I have had DDR dog linebred on Sindy, the active aggression was not there, nor was there hardness or dominance. I personally do not feel that Sven/Sindy were good source of dominance or active aggression, but there was one breeding with Sandy that produced crazy aggression to the point the breeding was forbidden to be repeated. 
Look, I'm not saying you can't get active aggression from Max or the breeding, but I still would not go to that breeding in looking for active aggression because there is not the balance I would want to see long term. Having said that, I'm happy the breeding turned out well, as there are some good dogs in the pedigree.


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## cliffson1

Folks, please disregard the above post by me. Though some of it reflects my thoughts, the part about Sven/Sindy should be disregarded as I reread the prior post to say Sid/Sindy. I tried to edit my post but it timed out and I tried to contact administrators and it kept sending me back to spam test. I really get frustrated with this forum. Tells me I need to take a break....Argw!
Anyway, I'm not sure who Sid and Sindy are, but I have had two sons of Sid v h Pixner, one over an Ellute daughter, and I have had another dog linebred on Sindy v Grafental....but not sure if Expo means these dogs.
In conclusion, I have further studied the 6,7,8 generations of this breeding, and can see where the type breeding Expo represented could have come from. Still, this breeding is one that I think is very open, and I think you could breed this breeding three times and get different levels of active aggression, albeit excellent working temperament in all of them.
Lisa, Carmen, Lee, what do you read?


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## Jax08

Espo4442 said:


> Without cheating, does this look like a pedigree that would produce active aggression/seriousness?
> 
> 
> Litter from Max ze Stribrneho kamene and Gitta s Cagova Raje


<3 Wolf


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## carmspack

oh you would ask !

I had seen Fren Kateko before on a Mike Diehl site . She stuck out in my memory because her structure was very similar to that in the American show ring - yet is Czech lines Fren Kateko and one of her youngsters Chilli z Noveho Draka

I double checked , fact checked , because sometimes pictures on PDB don't match the pedigree .

*hint to those that like the American conformation -- you can get it without compromise *

you look at the titles - the multiple titles of the offspring (Heriet in mind) -- good solid dogs

I look at the youtube of her working --- I am surprised by the poor grip -- the wanting to play with the decoy 
I don't see her taking it to the man . I don't see a desire to over power and control the man .
Of course there is little tension or pressure in the work of the decoy .

I do not know.

I don't comment on the Czech dogs . (except for Andy Maly Vah)

You don't look at names on a pedigree , you look into the entire families that they were incorporated into and try to see if some things were attempted to being kept in the fore .

In this pedigree I see strong dogs -- but maybe not active aggression .


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## onyx'girl

carmspack said:


> oh you would ask !
> 
> I had seen Fren Kateko before on a Mike Diehl site . She stuck out in my memory because her structure was very similar to that in the American show ring - yet is Czech lines Fren Kateko and one of her youngsters Chilli z Noveho Draka
> 
> I double checked , fact checked , because sometimes pictures on PDB don't match the pedigree .
> 
> *hint to those that like the American conformation -- you can get it without compromise *
> 
> you look at the titles - the multiple titles of the offspring (Heriet in mind) -- good solid dogs
> 
> I look at the youtube of her working --- I am surprised by the poor grip -- the wanting to play with the decoy
> I don't see her taking it to the man . I don't see a desire to over power and control the man .
> Of course there is little tension or pressure in the work of the decoy .
> 
> I do not know.
> 
> *I don't comment on the Czech dogs . (except for Andy Maly Vah)*
> 
> You don't look at names on a pedigree , you look into the entire families that they were incorporated into and try to see if some things were attempted to being kept in the fore .
> 
> In this pedigree I see strong dogs -- but maybe not active aggression .


Carmen, were you able to see Andy working? I never got the chance. But his videos were proof of who he was. I know Cliff knew him personally, just curious about your thoughts on Andy. I have an Andy son(8 years old today!), too bad Andy wasn't used more for breeding, and not many that he's produced have been used for breeding.


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## carmspack

I did not , but a breeding-friend did .

We bred a lot of dogs co-operatively for law enforcement . I chose Andy she checked him out .

my thoughts? pretty much the ideal balance -- tough , hard , resilient dog at work, biddable, great handler connection, aloof-social and could take every where 

While waiting for the female to age-out and get her health checks - Andy , who was already with some age on him - passed before we could add his lines to ours.

you have an Andy son! tell me more.


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## DutchKarin

Carmen, I sent you a pedigree to your private email. Just watched this GSD work again yesterday. He is a phenom. Fabulous ranging, focus, capability everything about him is amazing in the field. I'm curious about your take on his pedigree. Karin


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## onyx'girl

I have Gideon vom Wildhaus and Castlemaid also has a littermate Gryffon. Both are very similar(as are all the female littermates) in their drives.
Hunt drive, fight drive yet strong bidability is consistent. Though they are not extreme with prey drive. Thinking dogs that discern and that came early on, higher in threshold even without the 'maturity'. 

Size-wise, they are a bit on the high end of the standard, but not extreme. Yet they are very athletic. Three of the females excel in agility(MaggieRoseLee has female GloryB). If you go on this link, this is the litter/pedigree: 

(Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)

Karlo(Gideon) is the only one in this litter to have reproduced, he has had one litter with a Hawks Hunt(Suzanne Clothier program) female. He did produce much like himself in most all of the pups. 

One day, I'd love to have a pup out of him. The timing wasn't right to get one of his pups earlier as I'd just taken on the Gambit.


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## mycobraracr

DutchKarin said:


> Carmen, I sent you a pedigree to your private email. Just watched this GSD work again yesterday. He is a phenom. Fabulous ranging, focus, capability everything about him is amazing in the field. I'm curious about your take on his pedigree. Karin



I wanna see. If you would, send to me please.


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## lhczth

I saw Max (Art) a lot in training and know what sort of dog he was to handle and live with. He, himself, was a rather rank male with very good social aggression. That Sean was able to do as well as he did with him is testament to the training skills in our club. I have never seen anything by him, though we have a very nice young male by Dexter Eisernen Kreuz X a Max daughter in our club. I don't, though, know the dam's mother's pedigree. I would not say he has any social aggression, but he is not a sporty dog either. Good balance, very clear. 

There is good aggression coming down through the mom. Dogs like Falk Haus Sindern, Arthus Lünsholz, Uran Kirschental, Sagus Busecker Schloß, and a bunch of Czech lines I don't know. There are also some more sporty type dogs. I see her as being pretty balanced, but that is a guess since I don't know the Czech dogs other than names. 

Since social aggression is pretty rare at this point in our breed history, I agree with Cliff that it is a toss up if you would get it in this litter. I bred together two dogs that both had social aggression and got their very high fight drive and good aggression, but not the SA as seen in mom and dad.


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## cliffson1

Carmen and Lisa pretty much reflect what I read in this pedigree. I like the breeding for good strong working dogs.
As for Andy, yes I saw him work, I worked him myself, and I bred to him. He tended to produce oversized, large dogs with great athleticism and beyond all very superb temperament. I mean really solid temperament, all nine of my pups had. Not high natural aggression, but capable of moving into that realm with provocation just like Andy. I have trained an Andy daughter from another breeding that is CD, TDX, and unequivocally capable of being guide dog or service dog. Andy passed tremendous nerve through his dam, who was Nessie Ben Ju, who was litter brother to Norbo Ben Ju. Norbo is known as a source of tremendous nerves in his progeny. It's a shame this dog wasn't used by top sport people with their females, because he would give the nerve underpinnings to handle the high prey drives, and he gave good seriousness in relation to the drives.


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## wolfstraum

I tend to not comment on specific dogs....I am pretty hard core critical, people take things way too personally and have enough people ticked off at me    I understand because people used to come on here and say the sire of my Kyra was an absolute turd etc etc - it can sting when it is your dog's immediate family and someone is critical or nasty (in your mind) - I tend to look at pedigrees and try to see what comes from where - knowing that not every pup in the litter will express the same characteristics! But what too many do not fully grasp is that when something is behind a dog, it does not have to be expressed to be carried through to another generation in the future.


I will say that a friend is a very good friend of Max's breeder and I have spent quite a bit of time with her at the 2 WUSV events here, as my friend was their driver at one of them...so I got to know her and her helper who also spent a month here prior to Kentucky. Always curious about pedigrees, one night we got in a discussion about the female who is so prominent as the mother line in her breedings and the temperament that is often seen, as Lisa describes the son Art.....it was very enlightening....the goals and priorities of breeders in Europe are often vastly different than those of breeders here - the culture in dog sport is different and the objectivity of people is often much more realistic and analytical discussion is not taken personally. I met someone connected to Galan Naleg as well, which was also very very useful in understanding their female family.

Have seen quite a few of the dogs bred by the same kennel here, imported a pup for a client down south.....dog is a powerhouse, but very loving with family. But a total butthead in training....luckily the owner did hard hard Labs for field trials all his life and has done very well with the dog who is IPO3, FH (V)....someone experienced could have taken that dog to the WUSV. After seeing so many dogs with this mother line 2 and even 3 generations down, it seems to be very prepotent for temperament (have had several friends breed to z SK dogs, other friends have them from different dams and same sire, some of each have been titled, with my friends C litter doing well - plus an earlier client of mine got another one from a club member of hers from yet another z SK dog).

am I rambling LOL LOL LOL in attempting not to offend anyone?


Lee


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## cliffson1

Lee, what/who is z sk dog?


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## wolfstraum

Kennel name shortcut! ze Stribrneho kamene


referring back to Lisa's post on Max/"Art"


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## Espo4442

cliffson1 said:


> @Espo4442..... I don't question what you say about Max and damline. Actually, I found that the dam line is capable of good aggression. But there are other dogs in the pedigree that factor in. I have had two dogs from Ellute in Grandfather role and neither had good aggression. Excellent nerve, great grips, and great prey but not what I consider active aggression. Actually, I like Max's dam line better than sire line for source of active aggression. I've had granddaughter of Beemoan Bee, another solid dog, but not active aggression. Grief, and Tito were good source, as could be Querry, but when you talk about Sandy/Sven, who I have had DDR dog linebred on Sindy, the active aggression was not there, nor was there hardness or dominance. I personally do not feel that Sven/Sindy were good source of dominance or active aggression, but there was one breeding with Sandy that produced crazy aggression to the point the breeding was forbidden to be repeated.
> Look, I'm not saying you can't get active aggression from Max or the breeding, but I still would not go to that breeding in looking for active aggression because there is not the balance I would want to see long term. Having said that, I'm happy the breeding turned out well, as there are some good dogs in the pedigree.


Cliff no worries at all, and I agree with the initial analysis...tends to look very sporty and high drive. I believe the aggression and Anger the dog exibits in the blind comes from Bemoan mixed with your orry further strengthend by the mother line. Zybnek mentioned that Bara z oplovny was a very nice female. You were correct in speaking to the Sven/Sindy breeding I just had a typo lol!


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## Espo4442

wolfstraum said:


> I tend to not comment on specific dogs....I am pretty hard core critical, people take things way too personally and have enough people ticked off at me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand because people used to come on here and say the sire of my Kyra was an absolute turd etc etc - it can sting when it is your dog's immediate family and someone is critical or nasty (in your mind) - I tend to look at pedigrees and try to see what comes from where - knowing that not every pup in the litter will express the same characteristics! But what too many do not fully grasp is that when something is behind a dog, it does not have to be expressed to be carried through to another generation in the future.
> 
> 
> I will say that a friend is a very good friend of Max's breeder and I have spent quite a bit of time with her at the 2 WUSV events here, as my friend was their driver at one of them...so I got to know her and her helper who also spent a month here prior to Kentucky. Always curious about pedigrees, one night we got in a discussion about the female who is so prominent as the mother line in her breedings and the temperament that is often seen, as Lisa describes the son Art.....it was very enlightening....the goals and priorities of breeders in Europe are often vastly different than those of breeders here - the culture in dog sport is different and the objectivity of people is often much more realistic and analytical discussion is not taken personally. I met someone connected to Galan Naleg as well, which was also very very useful in understanding their female family.
> 
> Have seen quite a few of the dogs bred by the same kennel here, imported a pup for a client down south.....dog is a powerhouse, but very loving with family. But a total butthead in training....luckily the owner did hard hard Labs for field trials all his life and has done very well with the dog who is IPO3, FH (V)....someone experienced could have taken that dog to the WUSV. After seeing so many dogs with this mother line 2 and even 3 generations down, it seems to be very prepotent for temperament (have had several friends breed to z SK dogs, other friends have them from different dams and same sire, some of each have been titled, with my friends C litter doing well - plus an earlier client of mine got another one from a club member of hers from yet another z SK dog).
> 
> am I rambling LOL LOL LOL in attempting not to offend anyone?
> 
> 
> Lee


Lee, not sure if it was directed towards me or but I wouldn't be offended either way ha! Always look forward to hearing perspectives on dogs and what they see. Good or bad there's always exceptions to every combo and sometimes people take things too personal. Anyway, yes very intersting how much foundation Bemoan had on sk dogs. I would venture to say that Auron is not an exception to the rule on these types of breedings...hard dogs, even harder headed sometimes but lots of dog. Great temperament when not working!


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## lhczth

We actually have/had several dogs from the ze Stribrneho kamene in the region. The one young male, his owner loves, because she described him as being like a Mal. Learns fast, very compliant, high pack drive, very high toy drive, clear and sound off the field. His dam is very popular and there have been quite a few pups imported out of her for sport by various males. So far, dogs are young, I do not see the SA that was found in Max, but then, as I said, it is pretty rare now. Maybe they have moved too far away from that foundation that produced Max. 

The Dam: 

https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/107973/Una-ze-Stribrneho-kamene-CS


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## lhczth

BTW, not saying anything bad or negative. These are all very nice young dogs and puppies. Just different from Max.


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## cliffson1

Lisa, that pedigree you posted I would have read as producing exactly what you described....capable of very high end sport dogs through both sides.


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## Espo4442

Nick Vom Heiligenbosch, Yoshy Von Der Dollenweise


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## EMH

lhczth said:


> We actually have/had several dogs from the ze Stribrneho kamene in the region. The one young male, his owner loves, because she described him as being like a Mal. Learns fast, very compliant, high pack drive, very high toy drive, clear and sound off the field. His dam is very popular and there have been quite a few pups imported out of her for sport by various males. So far, dogs are young, I do not see the SA that was found in Max, but then, as I said, it is pretty rare now. Maybe they have moved too far away from that foundation that produced Max.
> 
> The Dam:
> 
> https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/107973/Una-ze-Stribrneho-kamene-CS


This dog has lines in common with mine!

This is a good thread, I've enjoyed reading it. :wink2:


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## mycobraracr

lhczth said:


> There is definitely a difference in active aggression/fight drive and reactive aggression/defense. Seeing a video could be helpful.


For sake of discusion, what do you guys see in this video? Not just you Lisa, but everyone. Pedigree for reference. Ivisaruk River vom Lytle


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## carmspack

oh boy , not much video to go by - 

from the little bit shown - a dog that is stressed , reactive "defensive" aggression .

close your eyes and listen .


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## Sunsilver

Don't have time to read whole thread - will catch up later - but is the Orry being referred to Orry von der Kine, or the Italian Orry?

Orry (IT) CMKU 46238,


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> Don't have time to read whole thread - will catch up later - but is the Orry being referred to Orry von der Kine, or the Italian Orry?
> 
> Orry (IT) CMKU 46238,



Orry v h Antverpa


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## kimbale

@mycobraracr My godfather is retired SWAT and a retired Police Chief, that dog reminds me of the K9s he worked with. High drive, sleeve or no sleeve. There's anxiety in the bark, but his body language overrides it which to me says it's an excitable anxiety. This reminds me of the K9s that will throw themselves against the inside window if you get too close to the squad car. I've had that happen. Lol!

They don't mess around.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## carmspack

hey sunsilver , this is one of those threads that is worth reading from first to finish .
Orry Antverpa Orry von Haus Antverpa 

I would add Gento Larwin to the list if he is not already mentioned Gento von Haus Larwin


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## carmspack

kimbale said:


> @mycobraracr My godfather is retired SWAT and a retired Police Chief, that dog reminds me of the K9s he worked with. High drive, sleeve or no sleeve. There's anxiety in the bark, but his body language overrides it which to me says it's an excitable anxiety. This reminds me of the K9s that will throw themselves against the inside window if you get too close to the squad car. I've had that happen. Lol!
> 
> They don't mess around.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



difficult to express to someone something which experience , good comparisons and good mentors can teach you -- the nuances and the feeling a dog out

I hear frustrated prey reaction . 

Can this dog do the job ? Oh , I would say so . He has the intensity .
Being reactive aggression is not saying that the dog lacks courage .

The "fire-up" might be quicker to ignite . Ultimately the threshold may have a lower ceiling ,
but not one that handi-caps the dog from getting the job done.

there may be issues with being over wrought , too easily stimulated, not being clear and not coming down and returning to a base of stable and discerning.

physically the dog might have stress reactions which will create inflammation, adrenal exhaustion, digestive impacts -- more wear and tear in general.

and speaking of general I am not targeting this dog - but the reactive aggressive dog in general.


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## kimbale

carmspack said:


> difficult to express to someone something which experience , good comparisons and good mentors can teach you -- the nuances and the feeling a dog out
> 
> I hear frustrated prey reaction .
> 
> Can this dog do the job ? Oh , I would say so . He has the intensity .
> Being reactive aggression is not saying that the dog lacks courage .
> 
> The "fire-up" might be quicker to ignite . Ultimately the threshold may have a lower ceiling ,
> but not one that handi-caps the dog from getting the job done.
> 
> there may be issues with being over wrought , too easily stimulated, not being clear and not coming down and returning to a base of stable and discerning.
> 
> physically the dog might have stress reactions which will create inflammation, adrenal exhaustion, digestive impacts -- more wear and tear in general.
> 
> and speaking of general I am not targeting this dog - but the reactive aggressive dog in general.


All I am saying is that he reminds me of those dogs. I can't make a determination based on a short video, it would be irresponsible to do so without actually knowing the dog.

I grew up around K9s and had some excellent mentors from the field, thus just going off this video and my own personal experience.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## mycobraracr

I'm trying to respond from my phone, and it's not going as well as I wanted lol. I will respond when I have a chance. 

To be clear, I own the dog in the video. I have since 8 weeks old and there isn't much anyone is going to say that I haven't heard before. I know this dog in and out which is why I put him up for discussion. So don't be shy. Both of you are correct IMO. Some things I'll address when I have a chance and try and post more video. 

Stupid work gets in the way of good educational conversation.


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## kimbale

mycobraracr said:


> I'm trying to respond from my phone, and it's not going as well as I wanted lol. I will respond when I have a chance.
> 
> To be clear, I own the dog in the video. I have since 8 weeks old and there isn't much anyone is going to say that I haven't heard before. I know this dog in and out which is why I put him up for discussion. So don't be shy. Both of you are correct IMO. Some things I'll address when I have a chance and try and post more video.
> 
> Stupid work gets in the way of good educational conversation.


Oh!!! I'm excited to hear your input!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## carmspack

do recognize that I never said he lacked nerve or courage or the ability to do a job well.

the question is - active aggression or reactive . I see reactive.

He is very much like the two brothers that went to SWAT in the USA .


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## lhczth

Since this is your dog, we are not hearing a defensive reaction. Maybe a bit of stress with dad threatening him and prey frustration, but not defense or reactive aggression. A better picture of the dog would be with a helper/decoy he does not know.

Because I knew this was your dog, my response is a bit tainted.


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## mycobraracr

Carmen, I actually agree with 80-90% of what you said. So don't feel like you need to tread lightly  It's far too easy to be kennel blind, and I feel to use my dogs appropriately I need to stay as unbiased as possible. Unless we are talking about Kimber in which case she's perfect bwahaha.

The banshee scream as I call it, he's always done. So at this point, it's not something I look to for too much insight. I actually wasn't working him, my brother in-law who he'd never met was wearing the suit. I was just going to pick up the suit jacket for him and decided to screw with the dog. I can't post the rest of that video because my brother doesn't want it public. 

For reference to the bark, here is the same dog at 4 months old and his first time ever being worked. He had been a dog where 80% of his work has been control. Not devolpment or drive building. Saying he's like a lot of LE dogs would be accurate too. Multiple agencies have tried to buy him. 

https://youtu.be/b6PpyVDU9os


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## kimbale

mycobraracr said:


> Carmen, I actually agree with 80-90% of what you said. So don't feel like you need to tread lightly  It's far too easy to be kennel blind, and I feel to use my dogs appropriately I need to stay as unbiased as possible. Unless we are talking about Kimber in which case she's perfect bwahaha.
> 
> The banshee scream as I call it, he's always done. So at this point, it's not something I look to for too much insight. I actually wasn't working him, my brother in-law who he'd never met was wearing the suit. I was just going to pick up the suit jacket for him and decided to screw with the dog. I can't post the rest of that video because my brother doesn't want it public.
> 
> For reference to the bark, here is the same dog at 4 months old and his first time ever being worked. He had been a dog where 80% of his work has been control. Not devolpment or drive building. Saying he's like a lot of LE dogs would be accurate too. Multiple agencies have tried to buy him.
> 
> https://youtu.be/b6PpyVDU9os


The banshee scream, love it! He's a nice dog. Would love to see more video of him being worked. Looks like he's got a solid grip.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## mycobraracr

carmspack said:


> I hear frustrated prey reaction .
> 
> Iwould say yes. If I would describe this dog, I would describe him as over the top prey. IMO his aggression comes through prey aggression.
> 
> Can this dog do the job ? Oh , I would say so . He has the intensity .
> Being reactive aggression is not saying that the dog lacks courage .
> 
> The "fire-up" might be quicker to ignite . Ultimately the threshold may have a lower ceiling ,
> but not one that handi-caps the dog from getting the job done.
> 
> Once again yes. The "fire up" in this instance is slow,
> because of me (the guy in the video). Watch when I initially enter the screen. Just walking and barely even looking in his direction. He gives some barks, but not much else. Then I decided to play with him. Once I turn and face him, he escalates a little more. Then once I advance is when he goes all out escalating to the max. In the military we called this escalation of force. I personally see it as a good thing. As he's reading the situation and adding enough to keep everything under control. I also agree that he is lower threshold.
> 
> there may be issues with being over wrought , too easily stimulated, not being clear and not coming down and returning to a base of stable and discerning.
> 
> Being overly stimulated. Perhaps, it does take him a while to come down as you say, but I do concider him clear and stable. That being said secondary OB is always a challenge with him. Luckily he also has a very high pack drive and a true eagerness to please his handler (my wife).
> That is his saving grace.
> 
> physically the dog might have stress reactions which will create inflammation, adrenal exhaustion, digestive impacts -- more wear and tear in general.
> 
> I don't consider anything in this video as stressed. Like I said, his banshee scream is just what he does. I have pushed this dog hard.
> I know his kryptonite, and have him work through that stress, so for me I feel that I know the difference with him. He has never shown any of the other issues you have described. I do think he can burn himself out because of all the intensity he brings. His drive will never let him quit, but I would say he never leaves anything in his reserves.
> 
> and speaking of general I am not targeting this dog - but the reactive aggressive dog in general.


My responses are in Blue. I put this dog up for discussion, so he is fair game to be discussed.


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## cdwoodcox

@Cobraracr 
Was Xander worse screaming wise as a young pup? Did he feel the need to chase everything that moves. Birds, bees, flies, leaves, brooms, mops, other dogs, cats, etc... Over excitement when being released from crate or just owner returning home resulting in more screaming?


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## mycobraracr

cdwoodcox said:


> @Cobraracr
> Was Xander worse screaming wise as a young pup? Did he feel the need to chase everything that moves. Birds, bees, flies, leaves, brooms, mops, other dogs, cats, etc... Over excitement when being released from crate or just owner returning home resulting in more screaming?



What I'm referring to as his banshee scream is the way he barks. His mouth goes open and never really shuts. He doesn't just sit there and scream all the time. He is high drive, but not neurotic. He doesn't chase leaves,flies birds or any of that. Well as a puppy, maybe mops, but they can look like toys.


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## Sunsilver

I had a co-own on a dog that was the offspring of Figo von der Wilden Nachtbarschaft http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...l?id=519997-figo-von-der-wilden-nachbarschaft and Olympic's Lola http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2219764-olympics-von-lola

She was dog-aggressive, especially with females, and after she had pups, she went a little crazy. She would NOT stop pacing, and would even spin in her kennel. She wore a track in the fenceline of the 4,000 sq. ft. field she was turned out in. She was eating an insane amount of food every day, and was still rail-thin, even though she was parasite-free. I can't recall what other tests were done to try to get to the bottom of the problem, but I do know nothing was found.

The main owner did do some schutzhund with her, and she had an extremely hard bite, and didn't like to out. Unfortunately, the same was true when she latched onto the owner's other very pregnant bitch, when someone didn't close a gate properly. She found a new home for her after that.

Any insights into what might have gone wrong, either with the breeding or other factors (hormones, environment, etc.)?


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## cdwoodcox

mycobraracr said:


> What I'm referring to as his banshee scream is the way he barks. His mouth goes open and never really shuts. He doesn't just sit there and scream all the time. He is high drive, but not neurotic. He doesn't chase leaves,flies birds or any of that. Well as a puppy, maybe mops, but they can look like toys.


 Gotcha. I was just wondering if really high prey drive pups come out of the always in prey with maturity and the introduction of defense and pressure when they got out of the puppy phase and matured a little. Obviously dogs differ and what is true for one may not be for another. 
In your guys experience do most or even some dogs with super high prey drive have the ability to switch over to serious protection type work. Beyond just prey/play. 
And what does everyone think about Kraftwork dogs?


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> I had a co-own on a dog that was the offspring of Figo von der Wilden Nachtbarschaft Figo von der Wilden Nachbarschaft and Olympic's Lola Olympics von Lola
> 
> She was dog-aggressive, especially with females, and after she had pups, she went a little crazy. She would NOT stop pacing, and would even spin in her kennel. She wore a track in the fenceline of the 4,000 sq. ft. field she was turned out in. She was eating an insane amount of food every day, and was still rail-thin, even though she was parasite-free. I can't recall what other tests were done to try to get to the bottom of the problem, but I do know nothing was found.
> 
> The main owner did do some schutzhund with her, and she had an extremely hard bite, and didn't like to out. Unfortunately, the same was true when she latched onto the owner's other very pregnant bitch, when someone didn't close a gate properly. She found a new home for her after that.
> 
> Any insights into what might have gone wrong, either with the breeding or other factors (hormones, environment, etc.)?


I see alot of sources of aggression in the pedigree...and unfortunately, dog aggression, especially female to female aggression is not uncommon in this breed....in Europe, these dogs are more commonly kennel dogs, and not dogs who live in the house, thus, the hectic, not able to settle aspect is not considered a factor in breeding - the dogs are in a kennel and the owners don't care about their behavior as long as they grip and bark and do sport...nothing you describe is out of the ordinary for a WGWL dog. Here in America, many breeders are a bit more cognizant of the need to produce dogs who can live as family members.


Lee


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## Sunsilver

What I'm trying to get a feel for is what's the difference between a breeding that will produce a serious, hard dog with good discernment, and a hard dog that's going to go after other dogs, and maybe the postman or the neighbours?

This dog's pacing was SO obsessive that she was getting (IIRC) 12 cups of food a day, and was STILL so thin you would have been tempted to call Animal Control! We couldn't keep her in the house, as both the primary owner and I had cats and other dogs. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have been safe around my friend's daschund, Limo, and the cats would have been history, too.


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## cliffson1

This dog was an exception to her genetics in terms that level of hyperactivity,imo. Not so much for the dog's seriousness. I have seen these type of dogs that cannot settle with or without stimulation, but never litters of these dogs. This pedigree wasn't aimed at this level of drive, but it is set up for very very strong dogs. I would wager that neither parent was that incessant. These dogs( I'm talking EXTREME hyper as attesting by 12 cups of food and still skinny, and never stops description) are abnormal and pop up once in while in our breed unless you are breeding for generations for drive. When I hear people describing a WL as like this, I cringe because this behavior is more aberration that type of breeding.


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## NYCgsd

Interesting thread. I am also getting a working line, but I think "seriousness" is subjective. Is it the dog that bites anything that moves? Or is it the dog that can own you from just one look?


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## carmspack

cliff , unfortunately I knew of one club with multiple owners all getting related lines , and even littermates .

these dogs were crazy. 

won't out-- the bite was hard but NOT CLEAR - eyes would roll back in head -that's how intense they were , but not a good intense - the dog was way way overloaded 

--- sharp -- hyperactive , self traumatizing -- one had to have tail amputated and it still spun in circles.

one of the dogs , owned by a friend of mine was so "wrong" -- that it did do its worst , was taken away by animal control and put down 

won't say more on this 

want to get back to mycobra's because that is a good learning opportunity


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## Slamdunc

carmspack said:


> cliff , unfortunately I knew of one club with multiple owners all getting related lines , and even littermates .
> 
> these dogs were crazy.
> 
> won't out-- the bite was hard but NOT CLEAR - eyes would roll back in head -that's how intense they were , but not a good intense - the dog was way way overloaded
> 
> --- sharp -- hyperactive , self traumatizing -- one had to have tail amputated and it still spun in circles.
> 
> one of the dogs , owned by a friend of mine was so "wrong" -- that it did do its worst , was taken away by animal control and put down
> 
> won't say more on this
> 
> want to get back to mycobra's because that is a good learning opportunity


I don't know the club or the dogs, but sounds like it could be a training issue. "_Eyes that roll back in the head_" on a bite signifies handler conflict to me. Could be intense, but there is conflict. I usually see this when there is handler conflict and especially using hard compulsion to out a hard or conflicted dog. 

I spend a lot of time on bite development and calm. full, pushing in grips in sport but especially with our K-9's. Boru had tremendous conflict when I first got him. A lot of compulsion had been used on him and he his very intense to say the least, his eyes would roll on the bite when approached. I have since gotten him over that and the growling, thrashing and eye roll has gone. He outs now, but it had to be done with out conflict. It took a while to rehabilitate him and get him to the place he is now, which is a different dog. I am quite certain that if I had taken him he very well may have been PTS. He would have eaten another handler that tried the wrong approach with him.


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## NYCgsd

Slamdunc said:


> I don't know the club or the dogs, but sounds like it could be a training issue. "_Eyes that roll back in the head_" on a bite signifies handler conflict to me. Could be intense, but there is conflict. I usually see this when there is handler conflict and especially using hard compulsion to out a hard or conflicted dog.
> 
> I spend a lot of time on bite development and calm. full, pushing in grips in sport but especially with our K-9's. Boru had tremendous conflict when I first got him. A lot of compulsion had been used on him and he his very intense to say the least, his eyes would roll on the bite when approached. * I have since gotten him over that and the growling*, thrashing and eye roll has gone. He outs now, but it had to be done with out conflict. It took a while to rehabilitate him and get him to the place he is now, which is a different dog. I am quite certain that if I had taken him he very well may have been PTS. He would have eaten another handler that tried the wrong approach with him.


Is growling when biting a bad thing? If so why?


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## cliffson1

It's not a matter of growling being a bad thing, but more so the reason the dog is growling while on the bite. Two dogs ago I had real nice dog that when engaged as you upped the fight he would start growling as he upped the fight with you. This dog had great nerves, nice temperament and is on the streets of NJ city today as PSD. 
Likewise, I have seen dogs that growled on bite that were not so secure, or had weaker nerves in terms of dealing with pressure during the bite. Growling in itself is really more communication to be read by owner/handler in my opinion, in that what is important is why is the dog growling.
Carmen, there are exceptions in this breed to everything...everyone knows of the parents of Boban and the way that specific breeding was forbidden because of results of THAT litter....yet the parents were involved in other breedings and nothing like that occurred. That breeding wasn't true to its genetics.
The Nabarschaft dogs are known for strong drives, but not for the extreme hyperactivity,imo.


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## carmspack

cliff said
"Carmen, there are exceptions in this breed to everything...everyone knows of the parents of Boban and the way that specific breeding was forbidden because of results of THAT litter....yet the parents were involved in other breedings and nothing like that occurred. That breeding wasn't true to its genetics."

Hi Cliff . I am totally aware of Boban following discussions of the original owner , following his move to west coast USA , having reports back from people that actually went to visit him there , and following his progeny.

should he have been bred ? No. $$$$


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## Slamdunc

NYCgsd said:


> Is growling when biting a bad thing? If so why?



Growling is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the overall picture of the dog and the dog's state of mind. It's like saying a dog wagging it's tail is happy. Tail wagging just means excitement, it can be happy, nervous, or even very aggressive. It is how the tail is wagged and the rest of the body language that is important. 

When I look at a dog doing bite work I look at the entire animal. I watch the eyes, ears, tail, body language and how the dog is biting. I do not take one signal to sum up the dog's state of mind. But, when you see the eyes roll back into the head as the handler approaches, the dog becoming hectic, the bite changing from full to shallow, or moving, the thrashing and vocalizations on the bite, that all signifies something to me. 

Growling by itself is not a bad thing, you just need to factor all the the other body language signals in to decide.


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## cliffson1

Exactly Jim!
I agree Carmen, but Sven/Sindy when bred with other dogs had very stable dogs. We have all seen that type of hyperactivity in a GS that just can't settle. Unfortunately more people are moving in that direction as they breed for extreme drives for grips and obedience. Not all.....but way to many.


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## NYCgsd

Slamdunc said:


> Growling is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the overall picture of the dog and the dog's state of mind. It's like saying a dog wagging it's tail is happy. Tail wagging just means excitement, it can be happy, nervous, or even very aggressive. It is how the tail is wagged and the rest of the body language that is important.
> 
> When I look at a dog doing bite work I look at the entire animal. I watch the eyes, ears, tail, body language and how the dog is biting. I do not take one signal to sum up the dog's state of mind. But, when you see the eyes roll back into the head as the handler approaches, the dog becoming hectic, the bite changing from full to shallow, or moving, the thrashing and vocalizations on the bite, that all signifies something to me.
> 
> Growling by itself is not a bad thing, you just need to factor all the the other body language signals in to decide.


My breeder sent me a video of a pup which I liked very much, he had a nice full bite and he wrapped his hands around the item. He really wanted to go at it, eyes were focused, but he was growling during the bite.


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## Slamdunc

NYCgsd said:


> My breeder sent me a video of a pup which I liked very much, he had a nice full bite and he wrapped his hands around the item. He really wanted to go at it, eyes were focused, but he was growling during the bite.


I'd have to see the video and the pedigree to give an informed opinion. Hard to say with out seeing the video.


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## lhczth

Slamdunc said:


> Growling is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the overall picture of the dog and the dog's state of mind. It's like saying a dog wagging it's tail is happy. Tail wagging just means excitement, it can be happy, nervous, or even very aggressive. It is how the tail is wagged and the rest of the body language that is important.
> 
> When I look at a dog doing bite work I look at the entire animal. I watch the eyes, ears, tail, body language and how the dog is biting. I do not take one signal to sum up the dog's state of mind. But, when you see the eyes roll back into the head as the handler approaches, the dog becoming hectic, the bite changing from full to shallow, or moving, the thrashing and vocalizations on the bite, that all signifies something to me.
> 
> Growling by itself is not a bad thing, you just need to factor all the the other body language signals in to decide.


Unfortunately any growling in IPO is looked at as bad. They don't look at the rest of the picture.


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## NYCgsd

lhczth said:


> Unfortunately any growling in IPO is looked at as bad. They don't look at the rest of the picture.


Interesting, do they deduct points? If I saw a dog growling during the bite, my first thought would be that the dog is really aggressive and wants to do harm to the decoy.


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## onyx'girl

NYCgsd said:


> Interesting, do they deduct points? If I saw a dog growling during the bite, my first thought would be that the dog is really aggressive and wants to do harm to the decoy.


If I hear growling on the bite, I look at the dogs body language first, often those growls are due to insecurity. But getting to know the dog is important and how the dog outs can be part of the picture in the judges critique. 
Some dogs are safer when on the bite and won't out easily....if they out, the pressure returns. 
Of course in trial the judge only sees what they see in the moment, so reading the dog can be difficult. 
Just like the leaking /vocalizing can be misinterpreted for lack of control, but that leaking is what is keeping the dogs brain intact! Vocalizing is releasing pressure so the dog can keep from exploding. 

Take the points if you have to...it is hard to train out and then maybe another problem arises when you fix that one.


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## carmspack

Sven and Sindy when paired with other partners produced some very good animals.

The problem was in the combination. That is one reason , when people crow about a famous sire , or dam , concentrate on one side of the "family" I say they have to look at all the combinations and how they merge.

My question was should Boban have been bred - especially after the original owner at vom domburgerland was so open and frank about his experience. 

on the issue I do agree "Unfortunately more people are moving in that direction as they breed for extreme drives for grips and obedience. Not all.....but way to many. ---- this is so true . 

the dogs that I was talking about were owned and trained by various levels of expertise , from a seasoned top level competitor to a relative novice. 
The dogs were reactive and had low thresholds , had difficulty capping. 
The training promoted all the faults that they had . 

Had it only been "those" dogs I could understand , just as Boban was a result of the combination -- but I saw the next generation --

Breeding for extreme . Breeding without balance .


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## cliffson1

@ NYCgsd....yup .....the dog I described was like that as a puppy also. Full bite, active aggression, bombproof nerves, and low prey drive. Would not be the favorite at IPO world, but fortunately NJ developed and RECOGNIZED his ability and he is superb PSD today!
Ps ....this dog had very high hunt drive which made him very good at tracking and narcotics as hunt drive primarily uses nose.


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## cliffson1

Yes, Carmen, balance is that word that many breeders profess to believe in as they run to the dog that will get them the most points or ribbons....smh!


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## NYCgsd

cliffson1 said:


> @ NYCgsd....yup .....the dog I described was like that as a puppy also. Full bite, active aggression, bombproof nerves, and low prey drive. Would not be the favorite at IPO world, but fortunately NJ developed and RECOGNIZED his ability and he is superb PSD today!
> Ps ....this dog had very high hunt drive which made him very good at tracking and narcotics as hunt drive primarily uses nose.


The video was from a litter at 6 weeks old. Maybe it was just a puppy thing? Was their first bite on flirt rag. The entire litter had at least some growling during the bite, these are supposedly "serious" lines, which is why this thread caught my eye. I'm not sure I know how to recognize active aggression at 6 weeks, or even at 6 years because I'm not an expert, maybe you can describe it to me.


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