# Why 2on/2off? Why not running contact?



## wildo

I just don't really get it. I can see the point that the 2on/2off guarantees proper contact, but it seems so slow if the dog has to actually pause for a second. Since agility competitions are run by specific associations with set equipment dimensions- why not train the running contact? It's not like the equipment size would affect the dog's contact... What gives here?


EDIT- Or maybe the dog doesn't actually have to pause on a 2on/2off contact? If not- then how does it differ from a running contact?


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## MaggieRoseLee

For me, to properly train the running contact just takes WAY more repetitions and training then I'm able to get in with my dogs. 

Plus my dogs love to go go go and one stride or moment of uber excitement can easily lead to a missed contact and blowing an otherwise clean run.

Many of the top trainers with world champion dogs use a 2on/2off. But you wouldn't know it if you watched their run. Because when they get good, they start putting in a 2on/2off with a quick release. Meaning the millisec the dog is 'in the position' the handler releases so you can't even see the pause.

The other reason I like it is because there are alot of courses being set up now that have off course obstacles directly in front of a contact obstacle. So it the course is fast and you are behind, it's very difficult to keep our dogs away from the off course.

Susan Garrett is one of the top trainers and she has the time to train both for her dogs. Here's info on why she wants both The Fix in on for Feature | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

A Critical Key To Training the Running Contact? Susan Garrett’s Dog Training Blog


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## JakodaCD OA

when I was training, I trained for both running and 2on2off because both are good tools to have depending on what you need to run a specific course , hopefully, successfully

With my aussie, I used a more 2on2off because she was tempted to 'bail' alot on the aframe, she also wasn't a real speed demon, and could lose focus fast, so this worked for her..With my previous shepherd, I usually did running contacts, she had a much longer stride, and was much more solid on her contacts.

I think whatever way (or both) which works well for your dog FIRST< and you second, is the way to go


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## Xeph

I started with 2o/2o with my male and we moved to running contacts (against advice save for ONE person who saw what I saw). Why? My dog was wrenching his back. What I initially thought was blatant disobedience turned out to be my dog telling me he COULDN'T stop comfortably or safely, so we took a new approach to his contacts.


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## JakodaCD OA

that aframe is a good obstacle to get toe jam/shoulder jam on especially for the bigger longer striding dogs , it's why I try to stick with running contacts on that obstacle..


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## wildo

Thanks for all the replies. I learned I will need to look into stride length (especially in the A Frame) and see if pausing could cause shoulder/back issues for Pimg. I also didn't know that you they didn't have to pause for a 2one/2off release. So that's something to think about as well... Good info- thanks!


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I learned I will need to look into stride length (especially in the A Frame) and see if pausing could cause shoulder/back issues for Pimg. I also didn't know that you they didn't have to pause for a 2one/2off release. So that's something to think about as well... Good info- thanks!


This is another reason to find the best instructor/classes you can find. A good instructor will be able to work thru this. Finding a safe 2on/2off that your dog can be taught that won't injure it. And/or finding a reliable way to teach a running contact that will hold up at a trial.


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> This is another reason to find the best instructor/classes you can find. A good instructor will be able to work thru this. Finding a safe 2on/2off that your dog can be taught that won't injure it. And/or finding a reliable way to teach a running contact that will hold up at a trial.


That's a whole other topic on it's own, but I get your point. I actually walked out (not permanently, probably) on my trainer in yesterday's agility session. She seemed shocked that I left. It's a 55 x55' room (3000 sq ft) with a full agility setup scrunched in- a 30' tunnel, 3' high dog walk, full size teeter, half sized a-frame, numerous jumps and pause tables, two full sets of weave poles, and two tire jumps. People filter in over the 3 hour course of the class starting with about 10 people, and ending at nearly 30 or so. We have never worked on foundation training, and yesterday I talked to the trainer for all of 30 secs while she watched Pimg jump a 6" high piece of pvc siding. The rest of the 45mins I spent there I was pretty much on my own. It's funny how when you become aware of something like professional dog training (especially when you had a mindset of its uselessness) you can really be pulled into something like that. "Wow- look at all this equipment!" or "Wow- look at all these participants; they must be awesome trainers!" And there is no question that my dog has learned a good deal of obedience using their positive punishment (pinch collar, leash jerks, etc...) methods. But now that I get into this stuff more and more, I realize this trainer is not the place for us. Really sucks since I just gave them $275 for a year membership in "advanced" (ha!) obedience and agility. Pffft... I just learned that there isn't even a single trainer here that even competes in agility! Don't get me wrong- I don't think you have to compete in order to know how to train something- but come on- we all know it helps! Maybe we'd be learning foundations if anyone here actually knew what they were doing.

So yeah- I can relate to your statement on needing to find a good trainer. There is a pretty awesome looking facility on the opposite side of Indy as me where they have both an indoor (10000 sq ft) area and outdoor area. All six of their trainers actually compete in either agility or obedience, and class sizes are limited. I'm going to check into them in the new year... Here is a link to the new facility I am going to check out:
Pawsitive Partners Dog Training Center

Anyway- sorry for going off topic, but it is my thread... haha! Yes- I am in total agreeance. A good trainer seems to be imperative!


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## Liesje

I like the 2o2o because it gives us some advantages: If I need to catch up, my dog will pause until released. If the course is challenging, again it gives us both a second to "gather" ourselves before moving on to the next correct obstacle. The process of teaching this style has helped with my dog's rear end awareness. You don't HAVE to actually pause, you can have the dog stop for as long or as little as you want (if my dog has already made the contact, and I'm in a good position for handling the next obstacles, I give my release word there and keep him moving).

I do get the hesitation b/c of jamming the dog. Fortunately, that has not been much of a concern for us since we train on a A-frame that is very "open" and a dog walk that is only half height so our angles are a lot different for training. I've only trialed one weekend and my dog only trained formally for 6 weeks so he is not ready for AKC, but my assumption is that we would train enough on the "safe" equipment where when moving to the full size stuff and the tighter angels, the dog has already mastered the contacts and I can release him without him having to actually jam himself to a stop. My dog actually does a running contact very naturally but I persist with the 2o2o in training and then if he does a running contact in trial or running a mock course, so be it. We are not training to be competitive, just to enrich his training in general and have fun.


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> So yeah- I can relate to your statement on needing to find a good trainer. There is a pretty awesome looking facility on the opposite side of Indy as me where they have both an indoor (10000 sq ft) area and outdoor area. All six of their trainers actually compete in either agility or obedience, and class sizes are limited. I'm going to check into them in the new year... Here is a link to the new facility I am going to check out:
> Pawsitive Partners Dog Training Center
> 
> Anyway- sorry for going off topic, but it is my thread... haha! Yes- I am in total agreeance. A good trainer seems to be imperative!


That place looks ideal! You have to have smaller classes in agility so you get some one on one. Plus you learn when the other dog/handlers are doing their thing and listening/watching what they are doing right or need to work on. Only a small part of agility is about the dog learning to perform all the individual obstacles properly. The part that's the hardest and we continue with classes FOREVER on is the HANDLING! Which is all about us getting the dogs thru the spaces BETWEEN the obstacles in the correct, fastest, clearest, smoothest way possible for a beautiful clean run. 

I know for my big dogs, just training in a smaller place like you were, is NOT condusive to proper training for a big dog. Cramming all the equipment into half the space doesn't do anything but teach your dog to run slow and YOU to run a slow dog! 

I have to drive over an hour for my current training facility and that's just the way it has to be. Best instructors and best equipment at best year round facility is the one I'm at, so there I will stay. Try to work in shopping in the same direction, or meet other classmates so we can meet even earlier for dinner.... 

Even if you never intend to trial, instructors who do go to shows tend to keep their dogs healthier and learn the best/newest methods for their dogs.... and that gets passed on to your dogs. They will know about other clinics or seminars or methods that can only help make everything more fun and better for your agility team.


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## Jason L

You as the handler better be very fast if all your dog has is a running contact.


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## wildo

Jason L said:


> You as the handler better be very fast if all your dog has is a running contact.


This single sentence explanation actually makes a lot of sense to me. One thing I never considered is that it's the responsibility of the handler to guide the dog to the next obstacle. I clearly can't run as fast as my dog, so... there seems to be a case for a pause every now and again.


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## JakodaCD OA

wildo the place you posted looks MUCH better than the one you described going to.

I suppose anyone can teach agility, but if your going to compete, you need to go to someone who's 'been there done that'. And 30 people in a "class"? one instructor? Sounds more like a free for all 

When I taught, I limited my classes to six people/dogs and made sure each one got individual help/attention to problems etc, as well as good course time. 

As I said before, I teach BOTH, I want that 2on2off for when mostly I need it, vs the dog. If you've got a dog who takes direction well , you really don't "have" to be able to run as fast as the dog but obviously it does help


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## Xeph

> I clearly can't run as fast as my dog, so... there seems to be a case for a pause every now and again.


Yes and no. When I ask my dogs to slow up or stop, it's not to play catch up just to give me a break, but to better position myself so I send my dog correctly. My dog is NOT a dog I will ever be able to keep up with. He is a dog I direct laterally or from behind.

If I want to layer a sequence, I need to be in a position lateral to my dog to guide him, because I cannot do it from behind him. I'll use contacts for that, but my dog has neither a true 2o/2o or a running contact. He's asked to stop on the flat.


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## wildo

Xeph- that was my take on it. I didn't mean to have them pause so I could get a break while catching up. I understood that it implied the dog pausing so I could get into a lateral position to guide them.


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## Xeph

Well then, there ya go xD

I know a couple of competitors who do virtually no moving at all, because they can't (whether it is a weight issue, bad knees, bad balance, etc). They stand as much to the center of the course as they can and work it that way.

And their dogs do well.

If only I had that kind of talent


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## wildo

Xeph said:


> it is a weight issue, bad knees, bad balance, etc


...well that's me on all counts, haha! I guess there is hope! :groovy:


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## TaraM1285

I train 2on/2off and like the fact that it is a very clear criteria for me and for my dog to understand, mark and reward. As a newbie to agility, I like that it really breaks down the behavior into manageable steps and is more-forgiving to me being "green" in agility. And with 2on/2off I can do a lot of practice with just a board on the end behavior without needing the full-sized equipment. Tara would fly off the top if she was allowed!


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## Elaine

Xeph said:


> I know a couple of competitors who do virtually no moving at all, They stand as much to the center of the course as they can and work it that way.


I have seen these people, some of them are perfectly able bodied, and they just stand there and direct their dogs from across the ring. I swear they can tell their dog to take the second jump on the right after the blue jump and the dog goes and does it. These are usually border collie people though.


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## AgileGSD

Really _training_ a running contact (not just allowing a dog to run contacts and hoping for the best) takes a lot more daily work than training a stopped contact. To really train a running contact you have to be committed to working on it on a daily basis for months. It can't be trained only in a class setting and isn't as easy to work on at home for people with no equipment as 2o2o. This explains step by step how one internationally known agility trainer teaches her dogs a reliable running contact. FAQ contacts

If you simply allow the dogs to run contacts, you are leaving their contact behavior up to chance. Some dogs are allowed to run contacts and always hit them. Some always hit them until they don't. Then contacts become a constant struggle because the dog learned that it's faster (and maybe more fun) to jump off the contacts than it is to run all the way down. Retraining contacts for dogs who have developed problems is not all that easy, especially if they have been allowed to get into the habit of practicing flying off. Big, long strided and/or very fast dogs are the most likely to develop fly off issues if not taught a stopped contact. 

My first agility dog had a running contact (that's pretty much what everyone did at that time) and it was never an issue for him. He was a big, leggy dog but not all that fast. My second agility dog was a big, leggy dog with some speed and occasional issues with hitting contacts. My GSD was my third. My GSD could have been a much more successful agility dog if I had taught her a stopped contact. She had natural running contacts until she was between 2 and 3. In that time she never missed a contact but after that she rarely would hit all of them, especially at trials when she was very keyed up. My fourth agility dog I taught a stopped contact to, all four on the contact. He doesn't have fly off issues but he did begin sliding down the aframe, rung by rung waiting for me to release him which I don't like. My fifth has 2o2o and it's working out very well. 

If 2o2o is too awkward for your dog, you can do all four on or one foot on. It doesn't have to be a choice of "2o2o or running.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Xeph said:


> Yes and no. When I ask my dogs to slow up or stop, it's not to play catch up just to give me a break, but to better position myself so I send my dog correctly. My dog is NOT a dog I will ever be able to keep up with. He is a dog I direct laterally or from behind.
> 
> If I want to layer a sequence, I need to be in a position lateral to my dog to guide him, because I cannot do it from behind him. I'll use contacts for that, but my dog has neither a true 2o/2o or a running contact.* He's asked to stop on the flat.*


The handling style that I've been trained has to do with all the handling skills I need to learn (and teach my dog) so I never never ask my dog to slow or stop on the flat. Unless my dog is on a contact obstacle (headed FAST for the contact) I want my dogs to RUN!!!! 

Due to the fact I want to have my dog safely perform the contact (and get into the yellow) training the 2on/2off can give me a sec if I need it. But it's my DOGS job to stop, not mine to babysit and say 'slow' or whatever. I say 'Go contact' when I send her and then we RUN to the end where she should safely stop. I DO tend to obsessively repeat 'wait/wait/wait' when she is in the position. But I think that came from the 'games' I play on the contacts.... a mix of the 'ready.... ready.... ready...' thing to crank her up for the release.

While I usually have a fairly fast release on the contacts, IF I have already NQ'd on a run, I use that opportunity to train. And contacts are a perfect place for that! 

Watch this run, this is with a 2on/2off which allows the front cross at the bottom of the teeter but it still fast..





 
And this is a run that really shows the 2on/2off on the dogwalk cause once we NQ, then I can really just use the run to 'train' and test her (and have fun.... )





 
I am like Xeph that the more along I get in training, the more I have to work on getting lateral distance AWAY from my dog, but parallel. So we are running in the same direction generally, but instead of me being 3' away they may be more than 10' cause they have to take an obstacle way over THERE..... while I have to run way over HERE so I can get in my fabulous handling move that will show you where we need to go next.


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## Jason L

The nice thing about 2o2o is you can go as fast or as a slow as you need ... that is, if your release and your "stay" are both equally good ...


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## Xeph

> The handling style that I've been trained has to do with all the handling skills I need to learn (and teach my dog) so I never never ask my dog to slow or stop on the flat. Unless my dog is on a contact obstacle (headed FAST for the contact) I want my dogs to RUN!!!!


Strauss is asked to stop on the flat because I cannot get a safe 2o/2o with him, and without it, I cannot catch up to get into position to guide him  He has no problem getting back up to speed.

I tend to babysit the dog walk ever since Strauss fell off it, though we don't have that problem with the A Frame or teeter.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Xeph said:


> I tend to babysit the dog walk ever since Strauss fell off it, though we don't have that problem with the A Frame or teeter.


I've had Bretta fall off the dog walk once, she was just fine, and I do NOT babysit it.

I saw the entire thing happen. The dogwalk was along the far edge of the ring, right along the fencing. A VERY attractive Golden Retriever just happened to be walking along with it's handler (calm and quiet, minding it's own business) and Bretta eye just caught sight of him and she choose to watch HIM and not where her feet were going. So, go figure, she slipped right off the side to the ground.

Clearly I kept an eagle eye on her when she hit the ground and got up. And I asked the judge to watch AS WE WENT ON the course. I didn't make a big deal of it. (though the fans gasped  ) So Bretta also just shook it off and went on. No problems with the dog walk after that and she was just fine.

I TRAIN for my dogs to come off all the contacts! This 'training' is when the obstacles are low and it's more controlled. But they learn that falling off is no big deal (but no treats  ). As long as I keep them lean, fit, and agile, I have never had a dog injured when they come off a contact (or ever at a trial).

I DO try to make sure I have a nice entry onto the contact. Too sharp an angle (specially on the dogwalk) will tend to cause confusion with their 4 legs being able to adjust and stay on. THAT is my fault though.

I want to run agility with my dogs safely, so I teach them how to do each piece as fast as they can but it's up to THEM to figure out the speed they are comfortable with. I have enough to worry about on the course and where we are going next (and where I have to be). So I get them on safely, then it's up to them until the end where I want that 2on/2off.

One thing I know is that TIME MATTERS! I want my dog to perform safely, but I also want to keep the course as fast as my dog can run thru it.


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## Xeph

Yeah, Strauss didn't fall at a trial. He fell in practice  He was paying attention, just lost his footing and went splat. While I didn't make a big deal of it, he was apprehensive about doing it again (which isn't usual for him).

I've got a fast dog. Never been concerned about time. But I'm not terribly competitive either. I couldn't give a crap if we beat somebody else, LOL. We've never Q'd anyway. Can't keep bars up.


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## christinaekenn

I am attempting to train a running A-frame on my younger german shepherd. He is 15 months old now and so far, all of our ground work is transferring to the A-frame. Will see if it holds up. He is a bit "high" and I was worried about his shoulder slamming. His teeter and dogwalk will be 2o2o. 

Here is a quick video. A-frame is not full height yet but pretty close
Trauma learning a running a-frame on Vimeo


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## MaggieRoseLee

christinaekenn said:


> I am attempting to train a running A-frame on my younger german shepherd. He is 15 months old now and so far, all of our ground work is transferring to the A-frame. Will see if it holds up. He is a bit "high" and I was worried about his shoulder slamming. His teeter and dogwalk will be 2o2o.
> 
> Here is a quick video. A-frame is not full height yet but pretty close
> Trauma learning a running a-frame on Vimeo


Welcome to the forum and more particularly to the best part of it (the Agility part and yes, there is a slight chance I'm prejudiced :wild: )

LOVED the video and looks like you are able to train a running contact consistantly and in the stages that it seems to need. Can't wait to see more videos as your training progresses!


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## wildo

Yes- excellent video and NICE equipment!!


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## christinaekenn

Thanks! I started in agility with my border collies and then got my first German Shepherd, Zanto, 3 years ago as a "pet". Then decided to work him too a couple years later lol. And then my second boy, Trauma, made an appearance! Two very different dogs in temperament and size (Zanto is 26 inches and 90 pounds and Trauma is around 24 inches and 60 pounds).

And of course we have ended up in Schutzhund with I love. I am more serious in training Trauma in Schutzhund than agility but will see what happens


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## Jason L

Great training and I love the video! Trauma is fast!


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## MaggieRoseLee

christinaekenn said:


> Thanks! I started in agility with my border collies and then got my first German Shepherd, Zanto, 3 years ago as a "pet". Then decided to work him too a couple years later lol. And then my second boy, Trauma, made an appearance! Two very different dogs in temperament and size (Zanto is 26 inches and 90 pounds and Trauma is around 24 inches and 60 pounds).
> 
> And of course we have ended up in Schutzhund with I love. I am more serious in training Trauma in Schutzhund than agility but will see what happens


I think I'm most impressed you started with Border Collies and switched to GSD's when it's usually the other way around!

And I am SO jealous of your 60 pound Trauma! Where do you live? Will you be tearing around the courses in the NE so I can see you?

(If you put your general location up in the User CP it will show up under your avatar. You can add some cool signature too!) :wub:


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## christinaekenn

I will confess, I have a year old border collie bitch as well  And of course my 12 year old retired BC. But I just love my shepherds!

This is my HUGE male, Zanto. I will be honest and say we do not train much at all and we have not trialed since this video....but now I have some equipment in my back yard so hopefully this year we can actually get some training in. 

Zanto Novice Agility Trial on Vimeo

Here he is training about 8 months ago in a more "comfortable" setting

Zanto Agility on Vimeo


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## christinaekenn

Oh, I am in Georgia


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