# manual



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I’m kinda out on the fringe here, away from everything. I have 2 training options, one green psa decoy 3+hrs away, and another barely active ipg club 3+hrs in the opposite direction. So basically 1 entire day, spent mostly on the road = maybe an hr or 2 training, at best. Hardly seems adequate. And unless you’re near an ocean or major metro, your situation is probably similar.

Have a look at a map, then look around for existing clubs. Most of the n american continent simply does not have access. I’m talking about the fundamental homestead prepper homeschool crowd here. The daisy powerline 880 cult. Bear in mind, that’s where the type A personalities of tomorrow come from.

I really don’t want to get negative AT ALL but I feel like it needs to be said never the less. A lot of little local venues are really just breeder “fronts” designed to sell newcomers a “better” dog. So there. I said it. Moving right along...

We see it all the time here, new posters pleading for help because available local pet trainers aren’t equipped to handle “drivey” issues. It’s my belief that few of those issues even develop where just proper basic training takes place.

My posts may read as though I think I know everything, but by no means do I believe that myself. Cut to the chase, somebody who knows a lot more than me ought to write a bare bones, bare minimum owner operator’s manual.

Chapter 1: puppy selection.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I’m kinda out on the fringe here, away from everything. I have 2 training options, one green psa decoy 3+hrs away, and another barely active ipg club 3+hrs in the opposite direction. So basically 1 entire day, spent mostly on the road = maybe an hr or 2 training, at best. Hardly seems adequate. And unless you’re near an ocean or major metro, your situation is probably similar.
> 
> Have a look at a map, then look around for existing clubs. Most of the n american continent simply does not have access. I’m talking about the fundamental homestead prepper homeschool crowd here. The daisy powerline 880 cult. Bear in mind, that’s where the type A personalities of tomorrow come from.
> 
> ...


I had a horribly demoralizing experience with a club in Calgary and then tried again a couple of decades later. The second attempt found exactly what you describe. One mediocre breeder flogging pups.
I'm done.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I’m kinda out on the fringe here, away from everything. I have 2 training options, one green psa decoy 3+hrs away, and another barely active ipg club 3+hrs in the opposite direction. So basically 1 entire day, spent mostly on the road = maybe an hr or 2 training, at best. Hardly seems adequate. And unless you’re near an ocean or major metro, your situation is probably similar.
> 
> Have a look at a map, then look around for existing clubs. Most of the n american continent simply does not have access. I’m talking about the fundamental homestead prepper homeschool crowd here. The daisy powerline 880 cult. Bear in mind, that’s where the type A personalities of tomorrow come from.
> 
> ...


Oh God! I actually agree with this. I think it is a little worse than you portray it. 

I live by a large metro and there was never anything here until the past few years. And even then, when we finally got a club an hour away, when I tried to make contact on two occasions just to get some professional evaluations, I received no response.

I may be wrong in general but I have heard that some clubs prefer that you all show up at the same time and that you all stay until all dogs have had their turn. Add that to the hours of driving back and forth and the sport simply isn't for most home owning, working people and families.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

All I can say about the geography thing is you can't have in life. One of the reasons against me moving to rural areas is the increased difficulty in doing some of the things I love. With fewer people, its natural for fewer club options to be available. Not to make it a city vs suburban vs rural argument, just pointing out that you are getting what you asked for. I find your club stories interesting. The things I have discovered among clubs in my time in the sport is they are mostly terrible at responding, almost always end up starting later than they say they do, and aren't always newbie friendly. When I was first looking for a club, I contacted every club on the USCA site in the San Diego area, which is quite a few for what its worth. I didn't get a response from a single one. The first place I got a response from is an hour away from me in a rural area. I got confused and lost on the way there and couldn't get in contact with them for more directions, so an hour drive to walk around looking dumb and then an hour back on late on a weekday when I had to work at 6 the next morning. I would eventually meet them and do some work together, learn that they have terrible phone service where they are at, and that I was right around the corner, so its not something I hold against them. As for my club I knew when and where they trained, but because of the never starting on time part, had difficulty finding them. I did stumble on them when I was in the area for a different reason and that's how we started. The puppy flogging doesn't happen in my club. I learned that some of the breeders I worked with had litters when we started up again, but not one time was it even mentioned to me before. I have never heard them try to sale anyone at our club puppies either, though some of theirs do come to train with us. When I only brought one dog I felt like i had a lot of down time to watch, talk and learn. Now that I have the dog and the puppy, I feel like I am busy the entire time. At my club its about the training, and working the dog you have, so no matter the dog you bring you are more than welcome to join and won't be turned away. As for being there the whole time, a lot of that comes down to setup and take down of equipment. It can be a pain, especially the A frame. I feel it's just apart of the helping each other out. My drive is 15 minute though, so that definitely isn't eating up my day. We also train on Saturday mornings, which I think works out well. The majority of our club are working adult, with a couple recently retired I think. It's not uncommon for someone to miss the beginning or have to leave early. No none there is going to give you a hard time. The best advice I can give you on the club front, is if you can find enough people, start your own club. Nothing against training directors, but the helper is the most important person. You could use your club dues to pay for one once a week, or pay to have a couple members trained. Overall, I absolutely agree that there are some unnecessary barriers to entry.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

You could have the best manual in the history of the planet written and 50% of the people out there would disagree with at least parts of it. Another 45% would be too lazy to take it seriously....


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Oh God! I actually agree with this.


well _of course_ you do. We dig each other Mawl. Don't fight it. Resistance if futile 



Bearshandler said:


> Not to make it a city vs suburban vs rural argument, just pointing out that you are getting what you asked for.


point is well taken



Bearshandler said:


> The best advice I can give you on the club front, is if you can find enough people, start your own club. Nothing against training directors, but the helper is the most important person.


more points well taken

now, please don't go getting all sensitive on me because I KNOW you could contribute a lot to this discussion. But if you look up top you'll see we aren't in the sport forum. I posted this thread here in the training forum so as not to muddy up the sport forum. This isn't about what you train on club time. This is about what you train on your own time.

just to be clear, I most certainly do not advocate building lots of aggression in the backyard, because that's the last thing plain flyover folk need, whether they realize it or not. I believe the primary emphasis should be the other phases, and beyond. Personally I believe a little backyard sleeve play is great, but I definitely don't advocate getting "serious" about it.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Chapter 1: puppy selection.



I would love to take Shadow on tour. So all the folks who think genetics don't matter could spend a day managing her. This is what you are letting yourself in for when you support unknowledgeable breeding. And even if your pup is great chances are some in the litter are not. 
I cannot begin to explain how important breeder selection is. I am a huge believer in obedience, obedience, obedience but if the genetics are crap to start with even that won't help the average pet owner. I have placed tons of BYB dogs in pet homes and some in working homes but I also refused tons of dogs that could not be safely placed. A small rescue cannot waste resources on issue dogs.
With the right breeder puppy selection becomes irrelevant. They know what they have.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Well Berno, puppy selection starts with a look at yourself, your situation, and your goals for the dog. The first thing to look at are the parents. In general, I wouldn't buy a puppy and expect it to have some genetic traits that aren't present in the parents. Granted there are things that can show up from past generations, but in you want to hedge your bets. Parents that don't pass health testing or don't have health testing are a hard no, not even a second look. There are a lot of health tests that can be done, but in my opinion the big three are hips, elbows, and DM. A commonly used resource, Pedigree database lists verified health test in green. No german shepherd should be breed period without the proper health tests. After that though is where it diverges depending on what you want. So Berno, what are we selecting this puppy for?


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chapter one should be: realistic lifestyle, financial, equipment and training requirements. This should include first 2 months, next 4 months, next 5 years, last 6 years.

Chapter 2 should be breeder selection.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> well _of course_ you do. We dig each other Mawl. Don't fight it. Resistance if futile


Does anybody else hear banjos playing in the background?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

in certain circles_ I am _known as "ol clawhammer" 



Bearshandler said:


> So Berno, what are we selecting this puppy for?


I'll hazard to guess most folks get a gsd pup based on the breed's reputed *temperament*

akc ranks gsd 2nd most registered breed in usa, so I'd call that "wildly popular"


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in certain circles_ I am _known as "ol clawhammer"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not quite the answer I am looking for? What is the purpose behind getting this dog? While somethings are universal, some vary based on the goals.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

again, I can only speculate as to the breed's apparent "wild popularity." The goal of the manual I envision, "universally" speaking, probably falls somewhere between training and management. Good management through proper training? I'll give that answer a little more thought here.

meanwhile, not to derail the thread, but I just noticed something interesting. The gsd wiki hyperlinks to east euro shepherd and I see it's already recognized by the nordic kennel union. This is not to be taken lightly, because the nords don't kid around when it comes to this sort of thing. Be advised, ddr/czech/slovak rightly fall under the heading of "soviet union." Right about then I remembered fci adopted "nordic style trials" some years back.

I believe this means the breed is already effectively split?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in certain circles_ I am _known as "ol clawhammer"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ol' Clawhammer? Did your daddy dub you that? Where's he been lately?

Anyhow, expand your horizons. German Shepherds are the world's number one breed. I thought you knew everything.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Unsubscribed


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

What about Igor?


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Whats been going on with lil Gelmo? You would think he was gone with the drop off in pictures.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I changed his name to little igor. So far so good. He went through a little digging stage. Nothing too extreme, but I had to get after him. He’s very sensitive. If I point my finger at him and say a stern word, the emotional impact is observable. Come to think of it, I’ve probably been fortunate in that above avg summer heat arrived just in time to keep him out of trouble. Rather than engaging in typical puppy mischief, he’s spent most of his freetime over the last several months hiding in the shade. It’s been HOT up here.
I keep saying he might as well be an altogether* different **breed *and this morning I’m seriously beginning to wonder if he really isn’t? Sv/fci/akc/gsdca have been turning up their noses at little igor’s kind for over half a century. Apparently according to them he falls outside the standard, and frankly I don’t ever foresee them disqualifying their own dogs in order to award his type. So what’s the point?
I’m still trying to get my head around this here. Haven't quite decided what I’m going to do about it yet? In short, given the impact the big conformation orgs have inflicted upon the breed all along, I see no reason not to distance little igor from them as far as I'm able.










Восточно-европейская овчарка


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> Whats been going on with lil Gelmo? You would think he was gone with the drop off in pictures.


Berno seems to be having a bit of trouble recharging his battery... for his camera. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

please stop stalking me for pics, Mawl


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> please stop stalking me for pics, Mawl


Feel like you're in the Twilight Zone?


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I keep saying he might as well be an altogether* different **breed *and this morning I’m seriously beginning to wonder if he really isn’t? Sv/fci/akc/gsdca have been turning up their noses at little igor’s kind for over half a century.


As far as the american showlines go, while I'm not saying the GSDCA didn't play a role in what it has become, the major impetus falls on the AKC. The loss of work ability comes from the AKC policies. The breed has a temperment, work capability test that should be held to. It is not perfect, but it sets a standard for the breed. The AKC prevents any breed club from adding any sort of test like IGP to a breed standard, as well as health testing or age requirements beyond 6 months to 12 years. This is one of the primary reason the American showline lags behind the others in ability. The AKC statement on why the GSDCA is allowed to do IGP even states that it is because the dogs are working in prey drive instead of true active aggression. The other is America doesn't have a working dog culture. Most people don't know a thing about working lines, not just german shepherds, but pretty much any working dogs. The general thought is you can take any shepherd and train them into a police dog. Dogs are expected to be breed towards being family friendly pets that get along with everyone and everything. Dogs that bring aggression to the table are generally frowned upon because most people are prepared to handle them. These dogs getting into the wrong hands deals long term damage to a breed and eventually ends up in breed specific legislation and making it harder to own. Any dog breed in America that becomes marketed towards the mass is quickly going to be moved away from that aggression, and overall towards lower drives, lower energy levels, and a more outgoing social personality. As for the appearance and conformation, the color I don't have a good answer for. The structure is the typical Americanization of a breed, which again is an AKC thing. You will see similar changes in most breeds when comparing AKC to European counterparts. Some examples are labs, great danes, dobeman, rottweilers, and golden retrievers. The finer bone, sleeker/slimmer build is easy to see in those builds as well. I will say that I am not bashing American showlines, I don't have anything against them. They just aren't what I am looking for in a dog.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I certainly don't mean to bash _the dogs themselves_. Only the clowns who've taken it upon themselves to "steward" the breed. As far as genetics I wish little igor was a highline or lance of fran jo because I believe the genes are still lurking just below the surface, waiting to be coaxed back out.

I can't remember if I've posted this photo before or not? V stephanitz says the breed was developed from thuringian/wurttemberger/swabian so I'm always on the lookout for whatever I can find on those 3

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BXC7E8/pe...h-his-herd-on-the-swabian-alp-west-BXC7E8.jpg










anybody have any thoughts on what breed that dog might be? when I say "long jaw low stop eyes forward flat sighthound type head," that's the type I'm talking about


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> please stop stalking me for pics, Mawl


I think you did something to Gelmo.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

please stop calling him gelmo. His name is *igor *now.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> please stop calling him gelmo. His name is *igor *now.


Igor is for sissies. Watch what you imprint on him.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

nonsense Igor (given name) - Wikipedia

igor is a fine name and he's very happy with it


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Very conflicted you say?


----------



## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> please stop stalking me for pics, Mawl


Get some help.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jakubnovotny said:


> REMOVED BY MODERATOR


That's disturbing. Maybe I need to come get Gelmo?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> That's disturbing. Maybe I need to come get Gelmo?


I do feel sorry for Gelmo. Always did. I can't imagine being such a disappointment.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The AKC statement on why the GSDCA is allowed to do IGP even states that it is because the dogs are working in prey drive instead of true active aggression. [ ] Dogs that bring aggression to the table are generally frowned upon because most people are prepared to handle them. These dogs getting into the wrong hands deals long term damage to a breed and eventually ends up in breed specific legislation and making it harder to own.












I was fortunate enough to have my finger right on the camera button first time little igor’s switch flipped. We were just having fun, playing the game, and suddenly he got real serious. He was only 102 days old, and I mistakenly thought it was “pretty cute.” I actually joked about it at the time.
I know prey, I understand prey. A dog operating in prey is a dog having a good time. I don’t completely understand the defensive aggression “civil” business, but I’ve already seen how building it affects little igor’s personality, so I take great care when pushing him beyond that very fine line. As near as I can understand it, so far, is maybe something along the pastoral “flock guard” temperament?
Whatever the case, the last thing I need here on my site is an aggressive “jekyll and hyde” character that requires containment while unsupervised. In this environment what I need is a confident, outgoing, balanced individual that is able to think on his feet, often independently without direction from me. So far, so good. I couldn’t ask for a better dog. DDR is good stuff.

Extreme low prey is my only criticism, and I probably shouldn't criticize it? On second thought I have to say the breed leaves some agility to be desired as well. I understand it's considered "correct movement" but if you ask me, it's just stupid. The "correct movement" nonsense should have been abandoned *long ago*. There's just no excuse imo.









Sabis mom said:


> Maybe I need to come get Gelmo?


your name is at the very top of my freebie list, if you're still in the market when that time comes


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 562644
> 
> 
> I was fortunate enough to have my finger right on the camera button first time little igor’s switch flipped. We were just having fun, playing the game, and suddenly he got real serious. He was only 102 days old, and I mistakenly thought it was “pretty cute.” I actually joked about it at the time.
> ...


How about a current picture?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

eh, I'll get around to it eventually. In the meantime, I wish you'd stop obsessing. It's creepy.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> your name is at the very top of my freebie list, if you're still in the market when that time comes


Berno, I am not sure how to take that? Lol.

We seem to have fundamentally opposing views on dogs in general. Which is cool, to each their own. I am an old hippy chick, never happier then outside wandering in my bare feet surrounded by all creatures great and small. There is no living creature that I would ever view with disappointment, except humans. While I value the guardianship of bloodlines and respect the reality that the breeding of domestic animals is a serious responsibility, no animal entering my home would be met with less then love. Once they arrive they have a purpose and their time with us should be filled with our best efforts.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> eh, I'll get around to it eventually. In the meantime, I wish you'd stop obsessing. It's creepy.


Just looking to verify your veracity.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I am not sure how to take that?


 I'm not one to count eggs before the basket for fear I'll jinx myself, but you're #1. on the list. Hopefully something better comes your way beforehand, but if not, we'll be in touch.

whatever happens, don't stop busting my chops here. I rely on you for that. Bring the ying!


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Extreme low prey is my only criticism, and I probably shouldn't criticize it? On second thought I have to say the breed leaves some agility to be desired as well. I understand it's considered "correct movement" but if you ask me, it's just stupid. The "correct movement" nonsense should have been abandoned *long ago*. There's just no excuse imo.


I don't think the difference between a a mal and a similar sized working line dog is that huge. You can certainly find shepherds that come close to a mal, agility wise. The shepherds are naturally bigger, stronger dogs and that usually comes with a tradeoff. @MineAreWorkingline would be a better source of mal vs shepherd comparisons though since I don't work with them or around them very often.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i don’t know... i don’t see too many gsd scaling vertical walls. in addition to being generally smaller in size, mals are lighter boned and have a more square build. imo, as a whole, they’re the more structurally sound breed.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Fodder said:


> i don’t know... i don’t see too many gsd scaling vertical walls. in addition to being generally smaller in size, mals are lighter boned and have a more square build. imo, as a whole, they’re the more structurally sound breed.


Like the palisade in ring sports? It can be taught. There were a couple shepherds I would see at the dog park that could do it with ease.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Bearshandler said:


> Like the palisade in ring sports? It can be taught. There were a couple shepherds I would see at the dog park that could do it with ease.


but we’re talking generalizations right? there’s much less variation in the body type and athleticism of a malinois.

edit: another video, same dog, for those with shorter attention spans.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Fodder said:


> but we’re talking generalizations right? there’s much less variation in the body type and athleticism of a malinois.
> 
> edit: another video, same dog, for those with shorter attention spans.


That is true. Not that there aren't variations in malinios body types, but I've never met one that wasn't athletic, and the vast majority have been uber athletic. My point was you can find shepherds that are pretty malinois like if that is what you want.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Bearshandler said:


> That is true. Not that there aren't variations in malinios body types, but I've never met one that wasn't athletic, and the vast majority have been uber athletic. My point was you can find shepherds that are pretty malinois like if that is what you want.


i don’t disagree. at all. but it ain’t that easy...


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Fodder said:


> i don’t disagree. at all. but it ain’t that easy...


 Finding the perfect dog is never easy.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Like the palisade in ring sports? It can be taught. There were a couple shepherds I would see at the dog park that could do it with ease.


The dams side of Buds pedigree was full of dogs that were ridiculously difficult to contain. fences and walls posed no real challenge at all and until Bud was about 10 he was never left unattended outside unless he was in his run. His mother climbed an 8 foot chain link fence in a blink, Uncle Romeo routinely scaled fences. Bud could nearly jump a six foot fence, and he was a solid dog. No one ever pegged him for athletic until they saw him in action.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> The dams side of Buds pedigree was full of dogs that were ridiculously difficult to contain. fences and walls posed no real challenge at all and until Bud was about 10 he was never left unattended outside unless he was in his run. His mother climbed an 8 foot chain link fence in a blink, Uncle Romeo routinely scaled fences. Bud could nearly jump a six foot fence, and he was a solid dog. No one ever pegged him for athletic until they saw him in action.


Its always an impressive and terrifying sight when large dogs pull of those kind of feats. One of my good friends once taught his dog to jump over walls. It was something the dog really enjoyed. Then one day he was working on a house with a balcony on the second story. The dog saw the wall and immediately ran and jumped over. He landed on top of a car down below. He recovered without surgery but it was way harder to get him to jump over things, especially when he couldn't see the other side.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There is a great deal of variation in the body types of Malinois. Males can range from 45-100 pounds. Working Malinois breeders are not concerned with movement and type. They are concerned with working ability. IMO, that is what has harmed the GSD. Too much emphasis on structure and movement, even in the working lines, which has led to a loss of valuable genetics over the years.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

913.00


Chip Blasiole said:


> There is a great deal of variation in the body types of Malinois. Males can range from 45-100 pounds. Working Malinois breeders are not concerned with movement and type. They are concerned with working ability. IMO, that is what has harmed the GSD. Too much emphasis on structure and movement, even in the working lines, which has led to a loss of valuable genetics over the years.


Wouldn't good work conformation contribute to agility, enhance workability and protect joints thus extending a dog's working career?


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

_much... less_... variation, than the gsd - i thought that was implied since those were the two breeds being compared. body _type_ was not in reference to weight. i’m certainly open and curious - to seeing examples of over angulated mals or a roach backed mals etc etc. all that i’ve seen in person and the internet were quite square....and lighter (overall composition, not pounds) than the current trend of WL gsd.

but i digress.
bring receipts..


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I am talking about working line GSDs comparing to working line Mals. I consider other GSD lines like show lines to be a separate strain. Unless conformation is so bad it impairs a dog's agility, I think drive and confidence more than compensate for less than "ideal" conformation. I'll refer to the European show lines again. They might have "ideal" structure and movement per the standard, but they lack the drive and confidence to excel in difficult/challenging situations.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i can see that chip.
using my own dog as an example - gsd/bm/acd... imo, not built for speed, athleticism or durability, lower pain threshold overall but “in drive” magical things happen and he’s a different dog.

back to mawl’s point tho.... looking at longevity as a working dog, i still think confirmation matters in the long run. different breed, but in guide dogs - with the right confidence and drive present, the dogs are fast, pull hard and are a dream to train... but they just don’t stay in the field long (working at the same level) when they’re put together wrong.

looking just at structure - there doesn’t seem to be much difference between the SL and WL mals? dare i say.... yet 😔 perhaps that’s part of the difference.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is a great deal of variation in the body types of Malinois. Males can range from 45-100 pounds. Working Malinois breeders are not concerned with movement and type. They are concerned with working ability. IMO, that is what has harmed the GSD. Too much emphasis on structure and movement, even in the working lines, which has led to a loss of valuable genetics over the years.


I don't think change in structure has anything to do with the change in character of working line shepherds. I think the vision of how the dogs should work and the overall focus of the breeding is what changed the dogs. There are certain types of dogs, personality wise, that few people want. Of the few people that want them, even fewer are equipped to deal with them.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> I don't think change in structure has anything to do with the change in character of working line shepherds. I think the vision of how the dogs should work and the overall focus of the breeding is what changed the dogs. There are certain types of dogs, personality wise, that few people want. Of the few people that want them, even fewer are equipped to deal with them.


There has been a lot of research to support form follows function, a lot more than you would think. It's really no random act that GSDs, Mals, Dutchies and similar appearing dogs excel in the same type of sheep tending and protection work, or that Huskies, Retrievers, Terriers, etc., all tend to perform in their same respective capacities.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There has been a lot of research to support form follows function, a lot more than you would think. It's really no random act that GSDs, Mals, Dutchies and similar appearing dogs excel in the same type of sheep tending and protection work, or that Huskies, Retrievers, Terriers, etc., all tend to perform in their same respective capacities.


My understanding was that those three dogs were all developed from similar landraces. Not saying form doesn't follow function, the best example being sight hounds, but the change in structure doesn't account for the change in personality in working line german shepherds in my opinion.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> My understanding was that those three dogs were all developed from similar landraces. Not saying form doesn't follow function, the best example being sight hounds*, but the change in structure doesn't account for the change in personality in working line german shepherds in my opinion.*


That's too broad of a spectrum for me to hazzard a response. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

It is what it is. I’m careful not to push little igor too hard because he would injure himself in an attempt to please me. Don’t beat your dog up. When a gsd starts landing wrong, back off. It’s neither fair to the dog, nor i$ it worth the price of a real injury. Be fair.

The fact is, when you say “gsd” you say “structure and movement.” These traits are “fixed” to the breed. Size is a factor, but not the main factor. The main factor is closed population, which as a point of fact isn’t nearly as closed as some choose to believe. But by the time enough backcross has occurred to at least loosely conform, “structure and movement” again, because it’s “fixed.”

Vicious circle. Self fulfilling prophecy. Paradox. Classic epic quest. I don’t know the answer but I believe one may exist, because Science. Someday technology will be capable of predicting dice with 100% accuracy, before they stop rolling. Unfortunately until that technology exists, all we have are dice. Luck of the draw...

At some point early on with my account here, somebody “alluded” to a story behind the black and reds. I keep researching the database but still haven’t figured it out? Anybody got the low down on that?

edit: correct gsd working temperament appears "fixed" to structure and movement. All 3 vary according to type but it's essentially a package deal.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

My point is that as the split between the working and show lines grew, dogs with great working genetics were used very little for breeding because of minor physical issues due to the emphasis becoming increasingly more on physical appearance than temperament. An example is the 'B' litter Lierberg born in 1962. This litter was known for excellent character and trainability and produced it as well. Bernd threw some cryptorchidism and blacks, with black dogs not appealing to the show line people just as sables were/are. He only had 1 VA progeny, so that also lead to him not being used for breeding as he should have been. He also lacked a black muzzle which made him even more undesirable to the show people, who were running the show at the SV. His littermate Bodo also threw some cryptorchidism and blacks and only one VA progeny, and he also had excellent character and trainability and was neglected for breeding in the U.S. and gradually reduced in Germany. Working line Mal breeders wouldn't give two *removed by moderator* about those less than perfect issues and would value working ability over perfection, which isn't really perfection and is contradictory to von Stephanitz' standard that mental stability and utility and intelligence were the goals of breeding with beauty being a by-product or secondary. But I believe he strayed from his own standard way to often in an effort to set type at the expense of temperament, with Roland von Starkenburg being a prime example, and who was a dog with weak temperament that all GSDs go back to. By the late 1970's when the Sieger titles were restored, dogs like Canto Arminius and Canto Wienerau were the premiere dogs. The Arminius and and Wienerau kennels were founded by Herman and Walter Martin respectively, who were both SV presidents and cemented the split in the breed based on financial incentives with people paying large sums of money for the new red and black dogs that were valued for beqauty over function, and IMO, were not even beautiful. They were influential, as self-serving SV presidents, in seeing that the other brother's kennel's dogs were selected as Sieger.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don't know if I consider undescended testicles a minor issue. You're also talking about a group of people who will in some cases breed without regard to pedigree.The working mal people who only breed for working ability with no regard to anything will consistently produce better working dogs, but it definitely comes at a cost. The appearance and conformation of a shepherd is important just like the working ability. I wouldn't say as important, but it isn't something that should be disregarded. It was clearly something Max cared about. As for the show split, that was inevitable. I do agree the Martin brothers deepened the divide to a point where there is very little crossover. The same split forms in almost all working breeds once big time showring comes into play and breeders begin making structural conformation their primary goal instead of working ability. Border collies are another fantastic example. You can see the same difference in malinois. As their popularity rises, you will see more and more being produced that lack the high level working ability.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

What the I don’t think anyone here is arguing form follows function but they do go hand in hand if they are making a living. Cost a lot of money to train police and military dogs. Bm are a different breed and their extreme prey drive/flash makes them part of who they are. Their athleticism really can’t be compared. Their structure is different. They are much more agile. A well built machine. Their frame is lighter. Break down not as easily.The bm is a split working and showline and a healthy breed as was from the start. They are still dogs with instability or not enough drive to work. I saw a bm that it looked like voices were screaming in its head. It was depressing to witness. The German shepherd was bred on a foundation plagued with health issues that are major issues of the breed today. If the breed was not as popular as it is now and the gene pool kept extremely small as some people would like. I wonder what impact that would have had on the breed that had way to many health issues out of the gate. Having a gsd that developed arthritis at 8 years old was quite depressing to see an athletic dog start breaking down so early. If I go through that again I will most certainly move away from the breed.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is a minor issue in that it generally doesn't interfere with a dog's ability to function. It is a major fault in the show world. And it is not like entire litters resulted in monorchids.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

_SZ 331999_

"In Germany, monorchids were allowed to breed and the result was that many bloodlines carried this trait on. Among those that were monorchids themselves and who were used extensively both in Germany and the United States of America were Aribert vom Saarland, son of SIEGER Erich von Grafenwerth, Graf von Cleverhamm, Drusus zum Reuerer, and his sire Falko vom Indetal also grandsire of 1929 SGR Utz vom Haus Schütting through his dam V Donna zum Reuerer, Sister to Drusus. 1929 SGR Utz transmitted orchidism, and the 1935 German Sieger VA1 Jalk vom Pagensgrüb, Inbred Utz (2 - 3) , tended to pass this on."

Source: This is the German Shepherd Dog by Captain William Golbecker & Ernest H. Hart, page 26


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> quite depressing to see an athletic dog start breaking down so early. If I go through that again I will most certainly move away from the breed.


 I took a_ LONG _break and dabbled with many breeds. Did me a world of good. Fresh perspective.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@berno von der seeweise I had some different breeds through the years. Not sure I would have a King Charles again they are plagued with heart issues. German shepherds are by far my favorite breed. I’m hoping for the best and will be at my worst for awhile otherwise.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My problem with monorchids or crytochids is that for their health, they probably should have to undergo surgery that isn't that simple.

I have a big problem with placing health as a premium vs the total dog. I don't view it much different than prioritizing conformation over the total dog. Both are detrimental to the breed. Without an emphasis on temperament, we will loose breeds as we know and value them.

How many times do you hear people say how fantastic their dog was but it had mediocre hips or elbows or developed DM in its old age? What those people are overlooking is that their dog was so treasured to them because of its temperament and personality. Yet for their next dog they are hyperfocused on hip / elbow health or testing DM negative. When you ask them about the temperament of litters and parents that they are looking at, chances are pretty good that they will either ignore you, give you attitude, or politely and briefly thank you for your response.

Regarding agility in Mals vs Shepherds, I think strong drive can play a role. The physical differences are obvious but attitude is right up there. My black GSD bitch that thinks she is a Mal shames the Mals. She has been leaping to the top of the refrigerator since she was five months old. About that same age she leapt off of the high end of the porch and landed on her face on the brick driveway and went about her merry way. The side of her face was blown up for a few days but she was okay and so were her teeth. She doesn't stop to think at all. If she decides spur of the moment to go from point A to point B, she doesn't think about how to do, she just springboards up over and around and does it....and she never misses her mark. It's pretty awesome to watch. But her level of determination is absolutely a strong influence on her agility. The Mals? Just turned a year and Covid-19 is robbing us from doing much. They are light and agile but I have yet to really observe them have a real opportunity to shine.

P.S. The black GSD is about 24.5" and 72#.

On a six foot wardrobe:


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content








⁹
And playing on a construction site doing broad jumps like a gazelle:


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have a big problem with placing health as a premium vs the total dog. I don't view it much different than prioritizing conformation over the total dog. Both are detrimental to the breed. Without an emphasis on temperament, we will loose breeds as we know and value them.


I agree. It has to be the whole package, an equal partnership. Temperament, health, conformation.
It's like leaving a key ingredient out of a recipe. You still get food but it may not be fun to eat.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Keystone has some medical stuff, not necessarily genetic, but.....if i could do him all over again, i would in a heartbeat! definitely believe in the package deal - but a solid temp is what sticks with me! Tilden had the health, the looks, was the dog i was looking for at the time and his temperament was still remarkable. but i’d want more out of gsd now.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I assert the breed's wild popularity must be based upon reputed temperament. How often do you hear anybody say "we chose gsd over any other breed because health?" or "conformation?" Temperament is the thing. Supposedly at least. Brutally honest, most I talk to choose the breed_ in spite _of reputed health/conformation issues.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I assert the breed's wild popularity must be based upon reputed temperament. How often do you hear anybody say "we chose gsd over any other breed because health?" or "conformation?" Temperament is the thing. Supposedly at least. Brutally honest, most I talk to choose the breed_ in spite _of reputed health/conformation issues.


I think part of the popularity is a romanticized ideal. Half the people I know that have them only remember a dog they saw/heard of/knew as children.
Plus you have that image of the selfless defender. 
I would love to see a thread about this aggression thing btw. I just cannot figure out where to put it.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I assert the breed's wild popularity must be based upon reputed temperament. How often do you hear anybody say "we chose gsd over any other breed because health?" or "conformation?" Temperament is the thing. Supposedly at least. Brutally honest, most I talk to choose the breed_ in spite _of reputed health/conformation issues.


ahem, if we’re talking about the general population (which i presume you are when you say “wild popularity”) many people _choose_ this breed and others, for their appearance and have 0 understanding of temperament.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think most of the popularity comes from the breeds reputation as a working dog for police and military. Being the breed of choice in those applications leads to a general boost in popularity, and shepherds were the breed of choice for a very long time. I think that same boost is starting to happen in mals. Health and conformation are usually the biggest reasons brought up against the breed in my experience. Most people would ask if Bear was going to end up walking like the showline dogs they see. It is interesting that people know of them as police and military dogs, but the image that comes to mind is usually the showlines. I think the next complaint that I would usually hear is temperament. The dogs they would see are nervy, overly aggressive in improper situations, or very fearful. I think a lot of that comes from poor breeders producing sub par dogs.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Bearshandler said:


> I think that same boost is starting to happen in mals. Most people would ask if Bear was going to end up walking like the showline dogs they see. *It is interesting that people know of them as police and military dogs, but the image that comes to mind is usually the showlines.*


yes! so interesting.
none of my gsd have had extreme conformation/angulation yet at some point, in every conversation with those unfamiliar with the breed... the subject of hips come up. i’ve also heard from quite a few ppl that they were considering mals because they’re “like german shepherds but without the ‘hip thing’” sigh. it’s only a matter of time.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Fodder said:


> many people _choose_ this breed and others, for their appearance and have 0 understanding of temperament.


 Certainly true in the case of others. Not to hem and haw, but I assert "looks like a police dog" falls under "reputed temperament." Where I come from "police dog" and "german police dog" are common names for the breed and typically applied to any variety thereof (showlines, whites, etc.). In the minds of the masses there is little if any differentiation between types and most of what gets discussed in these forums is pretty well esoteric.



Bearshandler said:


> I think most of the popularity comes from the breeds reputation as a working dog for police and military.


 what he said



Sabis mom said:


> I would love to see a thread about this aggression thing btw. I just cannot figure out where to put it.


 me too! everybody seems to agree "you can't train what ain't there" so I guess maybe it falls under genetics?


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

@Chip Blasiole how did Roland von Starkenburg have a weak temperament? I'm looking him up, but what are your sources? I haven't found anything on his temperament yet.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Fodder said:


> yes! so interesting.
> none of my gsd have had extreme conformation/angulation yet at some point, in every conversation with those unfamiliar with the breed... the subject of hips come up. i’ve also heard from quite a few ppl that they were considering mals because they’re “like german shepherds but without the ‘hip thing’” sigh. it’s only a matter of time.


(rolls eyes) I get that about my showline all of the time. Everyone says too bad about his hips. I never had him x-rayed. They can be crap or they might be excellent. Who knows? What I do know is that he is not cow hocked, does not walk funny, nor does he exhibit any signs of being lame or in pain to the naked eye.


----------



## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

"My posts may read as though I think I know everything".....

Berno. I've never gotten the impression that you know everything from reading your posts. Don't be so hard on yourself.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Certainly true in the case of others. Not to hem and haw, but I assert "looks like a police dog" falls under "reputed temperament." Where I come from "police dog" and "german police dog" are common names for the breed and typically applied to any variety thereof (showlines, whites, etc.). In the minds of the masses there is little if any differentiation between types and most of what gets discussed in these forums is pretty well esoteric.


i agree that it’s intertwined, but i also think that the word temperament needs to be defined and used correctly. ask the general public about it and the response is likely to be largely inaccurate and/or contradictory to the dog in front of them. the percentage of ppl who actually want a “police dog” and those who think they want a “police dog” are still going to be fewer than those who want a dog that looks like one. again, to both our points... it’s intertwined.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> (rolls eyes) I get that about my showline all of the time.


has anyone ever observed the results of a highline sire x bsd or dsd dam?

I'd expect "common ancestry" to express there as a result of such wide divergence

ot: twiddling way back in the database here and it's_ ALL _messed up. Aggravating.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> has anyone ever observed the results of a highline sire x bsd or dsd dam?
> 
> I'd expect "common ancestry" to express there as a result of such wide divergence


What would one hope to produce? What about the pups that inherit the worst from both sides almighty Ol Clawhammer?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

one_ should always _hope to produce a* line*


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> one_ should always _hope to produce a* line*


Why not springboard off of the work that others have done? Why reinvent the wheel?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

it's not about reinventing the wheel at all. It's about *local adaptation*.

your *site*, your *selection* pressures, *genetic drift*, etc. This is where* biological diversity* comes from.

provided you know what you're doing, a few generations later you'll have *something* to offer the breed in return


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> has anyone ever observed the results of a highline sire x bsd or dsd dam?
> 
> I'd expect "common ancestry" to express there as a result of such wide divergence
> 
> ot: twiddling way back in the database here and it's_ ALL _messed up. Aggravating.


I suppose you could find it if you looked hard enough, I doubt it was intentional or with any sort of frequency. I don't think a showline would offer anything the mal or dutch breeder would want. I doubt anyone with a quality showline is looking to do anything other than produce more showlines.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I doubt it was intentional or with any sort of frequency.


 I don't advocate frequency.



Bearshandler said:


> I doubt anyone with a quality showline is looking to do anything other than produce more showlines.


 that's what I mean about wishing little igor was a highline or lance of franjo

the genes are there, lurking


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> it's not about reinventing the wheel at all. It's about *local adaptation*.
> 
> your *site*, your *selection* pressures, *genetic drift*, etc. This is where* biological diversity* comes from.
> 
> provided you know what you're doing, a few generations later you'll have *something* to offer the breed in return


Easy enough. Then where do you find appropriate homes for dogs?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't advocate frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What makes you think Lance was so great?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Easy enough. Then where do you find appropriate homes for dogs?


 Filial 1 is a mixed bag but highline sire shouldn't produce terribly extreme temperament. Appx 112 days from mating to VPAT so plenty of time to look. Please define "appropriate home."



MineAreWorkingline said:


> What makes you think Lance was so great?


 It's not that LFJ was "so great" at all, it's just that prior to german reunification LFJ was the only game in town. The line is genetically distinct and very distantly related to working type and highline, so diversity. But the biggest reason I'd be into experimenting with LFJ is because GSDCA began awarding highline crosses, so clock is ticking on that resource.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Filial 1 is a mixed bag but highline sire shouldn't produce terribly extreme temperament. Appx 112 days from mating to VPAT so plenty of time to look. Please define "appropriate home."
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that LFJ was "so great" at all, it's just that prior to german reunification LFJ was the only game in town. The line is genetically distinct and very distantly related to working type and highline, so diversity. But the biggest reason I'd be into experimenting with LFJ is because GSDCA began awarding highline crosses, so clock is ticking on that resource.


Oh, I thought you were trying to produce a dog with a little bit of chutzpah.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

The genes are lurking, but you can’t just put 2 dogs together and expect to improve. Outcross is only step one. You have to follow through. Whatever you mean by “chutzpah,” if you select it and linebreed it, you’ll get more of it. Prey is really easy to identify, and if you linebreed prey you’ll get a lot more of it real quick. Prey seems to be pretty well hardwired into canidae and I suspect that’s because in the wild prey = survival. But lately here I’m personally beginning to lean toward linebreeding the most confident outgoing offspring, if only to observe the results.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> The genes are lurking, but you can’t just put 2 dogs together and expect to improve. Outcross is only step one. You have to follow through. Whatever you mean by “chutzpah,” if you select it and linebreed it, you’ll get more of it. Prey is really easy to identify, and if you linebreed prey you’ll get a lot more of it real quick. Prey seems to be pretty well hardwired into canidae and I suspect that’s because in the wild prey = survival. But lately here I’m personally beginning to lean toward linebreeding the most confident outgoing offspring, if only to observe the results.


Define confidence.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Granted from wean-vpat, that’s 4-7wks, appx 21 days, it’s all fairly subjective; but I’m curious about the one that most readily adapts to new environments and environmental challenges, and how that individual scores come vpat.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Is that confidence or a lack of suspicion? Perhap a high threshold? How does vpat determine this?


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

After reading this thread, my thoughts can be summed up by the great Steve Iriwn "Don't Muck With It!"

There are great GSD breeders out there- chose what you like and go with it. There are great malinois and terv and KNPV breeders too. Choose one producing what you like and go with it.

Don't try to "better" those who have been in the breeding business for years with consistent results.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> After reading this thread, my thoughts can be summed up by the great Steve Iriwn "Don't Muck With It!"


 he should have followed his own advice 

the most successful breeders will tell you _there is always_ room for improvement



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is that confidence or a lack of suspicion? Perhap a high threshold? How does vpat determine this?


I like to think I condition suspicion a little bit. Prior to wean I introduce suspicious behavior near the whelping pen and retreat from a dam’s reaction. Litters tend to pick right up on that and react accordingly when repeated post wean/dam absent. I tell ya what I don’t do is clang a food bowl around and call it “evaluation.” I’m definitely not looking to linebreed defensive aggression for defensive agression’s sake, but I can’t help wondering if maybe that isn’t just part of the ddr package?

That fa huldrans herax video really peaked the curiosity around here and my crew is all hopped up about it. I’m fortunate to be in a position to plagiarize the whole thing on site, so I’m hoping someday somebody will come back at maturity for similar evaluation. That is, if I ever get a litter… I’m not one to push this sort of thing. Either it was meant to be or it wasn’t, and so far it wasn’t. Time will tell I guess…


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> he should have followed his own advice
> 
> the most successful breeders will tell you _there is always_ room for improvement
> 
> ...


Of course defense was once a part of the package in DDR dogs. It used to be a part of the breed package, period. 

You can imprint suspicion against certain things but I don’t believe that will create a suspicious dog. Confidence is about recovery.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You can imprint suspicion against certain things but I don’t believe that will create a suspicious dog.


I don't assume imprinting causes genetic mutation, but who knows?

imprinting from 4-16 wks shapes the dog for life, so arguably one may imprint select and linebreed "extreme" suspicion, but certainly not my own cup of tea here. Is extreme suspicion gsd appropriate? Perhaps among sport/police lines? I don't consider myself qualified to answer that question. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Confidence is about recovery.


recovery vs adaptability @ 4-7 wks?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't assume imprinting causes genetic mutation, but who knows?
> 
> imprinting from 4-16 wks shapes the dog for life, so arguably one may imprint select and linebreed "extreme" suspicion, but certainly not my own cup of tea here. Is extreme suspicion gsd appropriate? Perhaps among sport/police lines? I don't consider myself qualified to answer that question.
> 
> ...


You can imprint all you like, if the genetics are not there it makes no difference.
Shadow was raised by me and two supremely confident dogs. She is still a mess, and even if we assume I'm an idiot Sabi nannied dozens of puppies who grew to functional dogs.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't assume imprinting causes genetic mutation, but who knows?
> 
> imprinting from 4-16 wks shapes the dog for life, so arguably one may imprint select and linebreed "extreme" suspicion, but certainly not my own cup of tea here. Is extreme suspicion gsd appropriate? Perhaps among sport/police lines? I don't consider myself qualified to answer that question.
> 
> ...


The original question is how does vpat distinguish between the traits or even if it can.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


agreed, but genetics aren't static. Look how quickly east west types diverged. Look how quickly LFJ diverged from german imports.

"In 2018, a genetic study found that, just prior to 1859, a broadly distributed European herding dog had given rise to the German Shepherd Dog, the French Berger Picard, and the five Italian herding breeds: the Bergamasco Shepherd, Cane Paratore, Lupino del Gigante, Pastore d'Oropa, and the Pastore della Lessinia e del Lagorai."

I invite everyone who reads that to join me in skepticism, because that's what real Science is all about. What we "know" today may not hold true tomorrow. Real Science is the never ending quest for knowledge. 

*interesting* they all come from the alps though...



MineAreWorkingline said:


> The original question is how does vpat distinguish between the traits or even if it can.


you sorta lost me? but I've found vpat _quite accurate_ in evaluating a pup's potential for bite training


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> agreed, but genetics aren't static. Look how quickly east west types diverged. Look how quickly LFJ diverged from german imports.
> 
> "In 2018, a genetic study found that, just prior to 1859, a broadly distributed European herding dog had given rise to the German Shepherd Dog, the French Berger Picard, and the five Italian herding breeds: the Bergamasco Shepherd, Cane Paratore, Lupino del Gigante, Pastore d'Oropa, and the Pastore della Lessinia e del Lagorai."
> 
> ...


I have no interest in training a dog to bite. I like to train mine when not to bite, au natural.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> agreed, but genetics aren't static. Look how quickly east west types diverged. Look how quickly LFJ diverged from german imports.


But my point was the dog in front of you. If the genetics aren't there no amount of imprinting will make it so.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> But my point was the dog in front of you. If the genetics aren't there no amount of imprinting will make it so.


Agreed 100% but there’s more to consider. While the lance of franjo in front of you may not exhibit the traits you so desire, some of his offspring will. The winner @ westminster is a close cousin of the winner @ czech nationals *EVERYTIME*.

More importantly imo regarding imprinting, I realize some trainers want to begin with a totally green pup, but I’m convinced a pup benefits from, and is therefore entitled to, lots of healthy positive stimulation from wean to eval.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Confidence is about recovery.





berno von der seeweise said:


> recovery vs adaptability @ 4-7 wks?


 ot: I have a picard cross planned, if it ever happens


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Positive stimulation does not necessarily equal imprinting.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

from 4-7 weeks I don't see much difference between the 2?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> LFJ line is genetically distinct and very distantly related to working type and highline





berno von der seeweise said:


> The winner @ westminster is a close cousin of the winner @ czech nationals *EVERYTIME*.


re-reading may appear self contradictory; but the peds don't lie, and nether do your eyes when you observe phenotypic variation. They're quite dissimilar expressions of the same genetic jar of marbles.










So it's basically macro vs micro. In the macro they're all gsd (standardized breed = isolated population), but in the micro they've diverged into various types (isolated subpopulations).


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> from 4-7 weeks I don't see much difference between the 2?


I disagree.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have no interest in training a dog to bite. I like to train mine when not to bite, au natural.


I love the theory of a naturally protective dog which requires no training, but I don't trust it in practice

in my experience the untrained dog is unpredictable, whereas the trained dog may be somewhat predictable



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Positive stimulation does not necessarily equal imprinting.


I would argue that_ all a pup does _from 4 - 7 weeks is imprint


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I love the theory of a naturally protective dog which requires no training, but I don't trust it in practice
> 
> in my experience the untrained dog is unpredictable, whereas the trained dog may be somewhat predictable
> 
> ...


You misunderstood my comment. Imagine that. I don't want a dog that needs to be trained TO BITE. That is what I would consider an unpredictable dog. You can't generalize and train for every situation. I never said anything about not training a dog that will bite naturally. That would be pure foolishness.

You don't think you can start training a very young pup some basic obedience, markers, leash walking and lots of other things? That doesn't surprise me coming from someone that struggles to train a dog that doesn't have high prey drive. You overthink things and make them more complicated than they need to be. Have you ever titled a dog in anything or applied one in a real work venue that you imprinted as a pup?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't want a dog that needs to be trained TO BITE. That is what I would consider an unpredictable dog.


I consider a dog with the propensity to bite to be "unpredictable," unless/until it's been trained _when where and how_ to bite appropriately



MineAreWorkingline said:


> You don't think you can start training a very young pup some basic obedience, markers, leash walking and lots of other things?


from 4-7 weeks I call that "imprinting"



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have you ever titled a dog in anything or applied one in a real work venue that you imprinted as a pup?


little igor is the only dog on this property that wasn't born here for... so many generations I lost track 

"finding appropriate homes" was never even on my radar. Like I keep saying, for me, dogs and money don't mix. Hence my total disregard for the kennel club staus quo.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> "finding appropriate homes" was never even on my radar. Like I keep saying, for me, dogs and money don't mix.


That makes no sense. I'm afraid of the answer but need to ask. Where are the puppies?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

well I'm really, really rural here, and "appropriate" is entirely subjective 

let's just say if my breeding program was required to "break even" financially, I'd have quit before I ever started


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

What are you breeding, and what is the purpose?


----------



## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

"bernodoodles" to fulfill imbecile dreams


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I consider a dog with the propensity to bite to be "unpredictable," unless/until it's been trained _when where and how_ to bite appropriately
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Google is your friend. Did you know that most dog bite related fatalities are by dogs that have never shown a sign of aggression and would have had to be taught to bite? 

Just yesterday an 84 year old woman was killed by her rescue dog that passed temperament tests with flying colors and showed no sign of aggression. It also seriously mauled the woman's son's face and arm as he tried to save her. Now that's what I call unpredictable as you define the term. I define unpredictable as a dog that had to be trained where and how to bite appropriately but was never trained it in a specific environment that was currently presenting a threat, especially if the threat isn't wearing a sleeve.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> well I'm really, really rural here, and "appropriate" is entirely subjective


I have to sleep soon so I'm just going to let this go. You make me sad Berno, very sad.


----------



## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> *Make no mistake about it, I’m going to breed the living heck out of little gelmo here*  but does the breed really need another akc byb crankin’ out papered companions for the cityfolk market? Or is there perhaps a fleeting little glimmer of a chance the breed might actually be better served someday in the very distant future if berno just focuses on founding a sturdy ‘ol muttline with his lucky little 7/8 ddr sire? I mean, I can get papers on that ham sandwich right now, no questions asked. When it comes to that sort of thing it’s not about what you know, it’s about who you know - berno


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just yesterday an 84 year old woman was killed by her rescue dog


I’ll bet she paid an arm and a leg for that "rescue" and I'll bet we can all guess what breed it was; but forum rules prohibit discussing it here...

I should have had a mating in house by now so I’m seriously beginning to doubt. Outside matings planned but for whatever reason my gut’s started telling me not to commit to any of that get. At least not yet...

I’m seriously beginning to lean toward crossing little igor to a white gsd now, which, at the outset, was the furthest thing from my mind. Hence the fact that it’s not already done. But lately I find myself playing this little game: if gsd was the last breed on earth, what type would I mate little igor with?

puppy mulling


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I’ll bet she paid an arm and a leg for that "rescue" and I'll bet we can all guess what breed it was; but forum rules prohibit discussing it here...
> 
> I should have had a mating in house by now so I’m seriously beginning to doubt. Outside matings planned but for whatever reason my gut’s started telling me not to commit to any of that get. At least not yet...
> 
> ...


The content of my post was not breed related but about the pros and cons of dogs that needed to be trained to bite as well as the predictability of such dogs.

From the way I hear it, a lot of dog trainers have been bitten by dogs that don't bite. It doesn't seem to be the same for dogs that do.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

@berno von der seeweise you disappoint me. Breeders producing subpar dogs without going through the proper steps give the breed a bad name. The fact that you are so brazen about it is becoming offensive. Hung papers is wrong on a lot of levels. Someone so into pedigree research like you should understand that. Breeding dogs without the proper health clearances is wrong on a lot of levels. As someone who says they left the breed because of health problems, you should understand that.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Offensive? I tell ya what’s offensive. Breeders hiding behind health screens as rationalization/justification while knowingly propagating/placing a percentage of offspring with genetic health issues. That’s what I call “offensive.”

As breeds all across the dog fancy spectrum continue to implode, papers will hang with increasing frequency. Not to mention all the “new breeds” and variants gaining kennel club approval.

I can’t help but liken the current breeding situation to firearms ownership. At least half the people engaged in these activities have no business anywhere near it, while half of those who deliberately choose not to engage probably really ought to. It just seems common sense is in such short supply anymore.

regarding little ‘ole "offensive" me and health screens and papers, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Offensive? I tell ya what’s offensive. Breeders hiding behind health screens as rationalization/justification while knowingly propagating/placing a percentage of offspring with genetic health issues. That’s what I call “offensive.”
> 
> As breeds all across the dog fancy spectrum continue to implode, papers will hang with increasing frequency. Not to mention all the “new breeds” and variants gaining kennel club approval.
> 
> ...


You are litter doing the exact same thing. I could care less what justification you want to use, deceiving customers and scamming the system to make dogs appear as something they aren't is wrong. I don't understand your gun comparison either, and I feel like that is a completely different conversation.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

SS,
Roland was significantly lacking in confidence.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> SS,
> Roland was significantly lacking in confidence.


Hey Chip, off topic, but are you familiar with this dog?





__





Quasy von der bösen Nachbarschaft


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Quasy von der bösen Nachbarschaft




www.pedigreedatabase.com


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Have heard of him but don’t any species other than going back to Timmy and Fero.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> SS,
> Roland was significantly lacking in confidence.


That's a shame😔 I really liked his structure and appearance. But that is just another time that looks aren't everything.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hey Chip, off topic, but are you familiar with this dog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who was this dog? Since I'm new to pedigrees and bloodlines I'm going to be asking a lot of that.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

He was a two time podium winner noted for throwing nervy pups. Then again, a lot of people liked him and what he produced. As always, when bred to enough good bitches and bad ones, you are going to have a lot of both.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting ped. Linebred on alf v nordfelsen, outcrossed to hein v richterbach up top and canto down below. And of course askia... whoa.... I fear I may be in the midst of a_ MAJOR _epiphany here... a new hypothesis... quasy's ped is kind of cheating because askia x 2 = only 3 great grand dams... but still, quasy's 3 maternal lines descend from _SVALT 990230__, SVALT 990140 _and_ SVALT 990392 (3 unique ancestors.) _Whereas all 4 paternal lines @ hettle and back to pollux...

here we go again: aiko z rodina straze, maternal lines go back to 4 unique ancestors (wachtel, _SVALT 990140__, CSHPK 27070, _and fanny) and all paternal roads lead to pollux.

and again: willy vom kuckucksland, maternal lines _SVALT 990230, SZ 15 (Band 1), _tillie_, and SVALT 990353 _but all paternal slots lead back to pollux.

so the tally of unique maternal ancestors from 3 random sample peds = 8:
_SVALT 990140_
_SVALT 990230_
_SVALT 990353
SVALT 990392 
SZ 15 (Band 1)
fanny
tillie
wachtel_

and the tally of unique paternal ancestors from 3 random sample peds = 1:
SZ 151

does anyone know of a living male gsd ped that doesn't descend from pollux/roland?


----------

