# Question on chain choke.



## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I read that if you are seeking a trainer to look for one that does not use choke collars because it is cruel. I am guessing a "chain choke" is the same thing? 

The trainer we were interested in say's that typical dogs (i am guessing all dogs) must have a chain choke and 6ft lead.

This place would be ideal because it is 20 minutes closer then another trainer we were considering.

I need some explaining on choke collars while training. Or, chain chokes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The aren't cruel themselves. I use "choke" or "slip" collars and leads on my adult GSD all the time, but she has manners and walks on a loose leash.

The problem with the chain chokes is when they tighten constantly. They choke off the dog, can damage the trachea, and don't teach anything. Honestly, if you are going to use a choke collar you are better off actually giving the corrections (quick jerk) yourself than letting the collar "self" correct which ends up with the dog pulling harder and learning nothing.

I personally don't use any trainer that "requires" certain equipment. My trainer recommends that everyone come with a regular collar and whatever leash they like, and after seeing the dog she will suggest other tools. Even with that recommendation, I bring Kenya on slip leads and Nikon sometimes on a prong or gentle leader.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the info! I really do not want to have to use a chain choke on Drake. 

We would still like to come out to Marshall next Friday and check things out down there. I just need an OK to do so.







Or at least get him in an obedience training, asap.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

NO training tool is "evil" or "abusive", unless it is used in a manner that damages your dog, physically or spiritually. 

In other words, a choke chain, used correctly and on a dog that responds well to this type of correction, is a great training tool. A choke chain that is used in an abusive manner or on a dog that does not respond well to that type of correction, is going to damage your relationship with the dog, if not the dog's health.

In your situation, I would ask whether you can sit in and observe a class without your dog, and see how you feel about the training. See how the trainer interacts with the dog and how the handlers interact with their dogs. What does the dogs' body language look like? Are they uncomfortable or frightened? Or are they eager to work, hardly noticing any corrections?

What are your other training collar options in this class? Would your trainer let you come in on a flat collar, or a prong, or a harness, or a head halter? What tool would you prefer to use? Do you need a training collar to work on a specific issue, or can you work without a training collar? Those are all questions I'd be asking, both myself, and the trainer I'm considering.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Sounds good Chris. I will call and see if we can go observe first to see how things go.









You have great questions to ask. I will definately use these.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you need to find the correction collar your dog responds too. I have a choke, prong and e-collar. The choke will NOT work with the one boxer. She goes to the end and keeps right on trucking. A prong and she is the best dog ever.

I use a prong on Jax because a woman completely freaked her out and she wouldn't respond to the choke. I'm now working on getting her to a flat buckle collar so can go for therapy testing. 

They are all tools that need to be used correctly.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SchotziThanks for the info! I really do not want to have to use a chain choke on Drake.
> 
> We would still like to come out to Marshall next Friday and check things out down there. I just need an OK to do so.
> 
> ...


Yeah come on down! If it's not for you, I'm sure people can suggest other good trainers in the area. I live in GR so I don't know of the trainers in your area but there are people from Lansing and closer by.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Let me give you an idea of how Drake is on a Leash.

He isn't that bad at all actually. He pulls ahead a bit and wanders off course to the side of the sidewalk where the grass is. Which is always peoples yards. Not good! A poo accident is all I need.

He never chases after things.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Sounds good!









I look forward to bringing Drake for a visit and possibly many return visits.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

just an fyi...a doctor I know has some kind of plastic link collar that works like a prong. My OB instructor just ordered one for another dog that the chain isn't quite enough for but the prong is wayyyy to much for. You could probably find it on the internet


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Hm, I will google and see if I can find it. Thanks!


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## TerriJ (May 20, 2009)

I believe Jax08 is referring to Don Sullivan's Perfect Dog collar. It is a simplified prong collar where the prongs look and act more like teeth and is made of a durable plastic. Go to theperfectdog.com website and see for yourself. It works well if you use it right, just like any other collar but motivational techniques work better if a dog responds to it. Every dog is different as is every instructor, just be careful and make it fun.

TerriJ


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

That is what I worry about. Using the collar correctly. Maybe I should go to a trainer first then see what they suggest Drake needs by how he acts on a leash.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Just for your walks I would try a Halti or Gentle Lead.Athena walks the best with her Halti,better then when she has the prong on.It takes some getting use to for them but if you keep trying they'll get use to it.As for the classes I would sit in if you can.Then you can see if this trainer is right for you and Drake.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I will never use a choke chain collar again. Never. Been training GSDs and Chows (my own) and teaching obedience classes/private lessons since 1989 (all breeds) and I have moved past using choking devices to help control my dogs.

Any trainer who insists that you use a particular collar is not a trainer I would recommend.

By the way, I was a vet tech for many years. I've seen trachea damage in dogs that choke chains were used on. I've seen bruising completely around the neck. I've seen staph infections caused by injury to the neck from choke chains. I personally would discourage anyone from using them as a training tool - if you have a dog that's already perfectly trained and who you could walk safely using dental floss, then maybe a choke chain would be appropriate. For training purposes it's a cruel tool to use. The soft tissue damage it does is not visible to most people (the fur covers it) and I think that there's a lot more damage than anyone realizes.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

> Quote:I personally don't use any trainer that "requires" certain equipment.


The only equipment I "require" is a normal 6 ft leash. Other then that what ever collar they show up in then I eval the dog and handler from there.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh, please. I have never seen any sort of damage from a properly used slip collar. The damage comes from improper use from people letting their dogs drag them with them on or leaving them on all the time and/or tieing them up with them. These collars are not meant to be used as a self correcting collar which is what the general public seems to want it to be.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I have - firsthand - seen injury come from normal, "proper" use of the choke chain. It was my own dog, so I know exactly how the collar was used. I've also done demos with the choke chain around my arm and ended up with a bruise around my entire arm from just ONE pop of the chain.

If you never pop the chain, and the dog never offers to pull on the chain, then yes - it's not going to cause any injury. But why bother with a choke chain if your dog is already that trained, right? People use choke chains so that they can create enough pain to get the dog to respond to them. That's the entire premise of a corrective collar - create pain/discomfort and the dog will avoid behaviors in order to avoid the pain/discomfort.

I'm not against all corrective collars, but the choke chain is one of those that carries a higher risk of injury to the dog - injury that most people never notice because (as I've already said) the area is covered by fur and no one really looks that deeply. But we shaved neck areas on these dogs and the bruising was then readily apparent. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
.. and no, I'm NOT lying .. sheesh ..


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I have not and no one else that I know have ever seen any damage from a slip collar and I usually only hear horror stories like this from people that have demonized them. All I have to say is nonsense and more nonsense.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Regardless if you like or dislike choke collars (and I will go on record that I do not use them, one of our trainers likes them) I agree with the previous poster: stay away from any trainer who only allows one type of collar.

We advise to come to class in the collar you currently use. Some come in collars that are not effective, some come in collars way over the top for what is needed and some are just right.

We have samples all types of collars to try after observing the dog for awhile.

Out ultimate goal is to get a dog on a flat collar using good, positive training methods. They just can't start at the same place since dogs are different.

See if this trainer 'suggests' a choke but will allow other types. A martinale might be a good alternative if some type of choke is needed.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Elaine, I think it would be an disservice to anyone trying to learn about training equipment to tell them that choke chains do not do damage to your dog's neck, regardless if they are used "properly". 
Choke chains have a specific way they should be put on a dog to work correctly, and if you do not know how it should go on, you should not be using it, period.
To give a correction a "pop" on the leash tightening the collar around the neck of the dog is given. Like others have said this can bruise and damage tissue. 
I have seen plenty of injuries from skin being pinched and causing a bleeding sore, to damaged tracheas. When you hear a dog bark and it sounds scratchy and hoarse with a choke chain on you can be safe to assume there is some significant damage there.....and I think that is pretty easy to conclude for most people.
You will also notice that dog's fur will get caught in the collar and pulled out giving the dog a look of a ring around it's neck with little sores. Hence, the fur saver collar is used on some dogs after being trained with a regular choke chain to avoid this. 
There are many other options in training equipment and I believe that they can be found to be as effective yet less physically damaging to your dog.

-head collars
-pinch collars
-a good ol' fashioned regular flat buckle collar and some training 
-no pull harness
-even a e-collar could be a better training tool in some instances if used by an educated and experienced person.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Many people use choke collars because they are cheap. I see people walking dogs all the time w/them. Dogs are pulling, gagging and not even comfortable at all. This is not damaging? Remember here,most are educated on the equipment and dogs. But the general public is not. I wish they would just stop selling them or raise the price so they aren't so accessable. The local SPCA uses them because they are cheap, and then when people adopt a pet, if they aren't told by someone there are better alternatives, they will keep on using them out of ignorance.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

"Dogs are pulling, gagging and not even comfortable at all. This is not damaging?"

If you would read my previous post I clearly stated that this is improper use and can hurt your dog.

If you choose not to learn to use the equipment properly, don't use it. When properly used, by no stretch of the imagination, will you get all this horrible bruising, sores, and damaged tracheas. I have no idea where some of you learned to use them, but you clearly have no idea what you are doing. They can break off the fur, but that's about all. A fur saver is worthless as a correction device as it doesn't slip smoothly.

I don't care what type of collar people want to use: a pinch collar gives a much harsher correction than a slip collar which is why so many people like to use them. Not all dogs need that sort of correction and a slip collar is a much better choice. You should decide what collar to use by the needs of your individual dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Elaine, I was not directing it at you, no reason to be defensive. 
I just think that there are better alternatives to these collars. *Because* of the reasons I stated! And why still use them when there are BETTER alternatives?
Have a great holiday weekend


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

People that refuse to learn how to use a slip collar properly and are given a pinch collar, generally still refuse to learn to use that collar properly and proceed to let their dog drag them around. Some dogs will self correct, but I see dogs dragging their people around on a pinch collar all the time and a pinch collar is much more painful. 

The general public seems to just want a way to keep their dogs from pulling out of their collar and that's why they use a slip collar. Fine, it works great for that. If that's what they choose to do, then any damage that happens after that is their fault. They don't want to take the time to teach their dogs to walk nicely on a leash and are looking for a quick fix. Don't blame the equipment for the operators failure.

It annoys me no end when people keep bashing slip collars when they don't know how to use them correctly themselves. They have their place in dog training and were never meant to be used for any other purpose.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: It annoys me no end when people keep bashing slip collars when they don't know how to use them correctly themselves. They have their place in dog training


Can you please elaborate on their correct use - if you have any training video links that would be wonderful.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Actually I'm quite versed in the proper use of a choke chain - I've just evolved past it. Some people still depend on archaic methods, some have become better trainers and moved on. I understand how to put the choke chain on properly (taught the Koehler method for a few years prior to my "evolution") and how to give a "proper" correction. 

The concept of a choke chain is to cause a painful sensation when popped, which makes the dog stop an "unwanted" behavior (like moving out of heel position). That pop briefly but sharply tightens a thin chain around the neck. This may certainly cause bruising! How many people carefully check their dogs neck each and every time they use a choke chain? How many people would even recognize a bruise on a dog? Those who promote this type of correction are either not truly concerned with injury to their dog, or they're just plain ignorant to the potential danger of these collars. When I read posts where people are still encouraging use of a choke chain, my first reaction is "OMG, I'm so sorry for the dogs this person works with". 

In addition, most dogs who still need that type of correction are still in the period where they will occasionally lunge/pull. And that puts us right back into the concept of the choke chain causing soft tissue injury as well as potential trachea damage. I will say it again - as a vet tech and as a trainer of some 20 years, I have SEEN FIRSTHAND the damage these collars can cause. Anyone calling that "nonsense" must simply not care about dogs. And I don't much like being called a liar, which is obviously being implied.

I don't like prong collars, but they are less damaging overall than choke chains. Hopefully people will use them sparingly in order to properly train their dogs - and an advantage is that most dogs will voluntarily choose not to pull in a prong collar (yes, because it's uncomfortable) but many dogs will still choose to pull in a choke chain. I have only once seen injury from a prong collar - vs. many injuries from choke chains.

Ideally people will step beyond the use of these types of collars and learn to properly train their dog. Nearly all dogs can be trained successfully using very little restraint, IF the owners choose to learn how to do it properly. But if you have to resort to a training collar, I would recommend the prong over the choke ANY day. And if you do go with the prong, please study up on some positive reinforcement training and take advantage of the behaviors the prong allows you to get (like loose leash walking) and reinforce the dog properly so that you can eventually walk without the need of a corrective collar of any kind. It can be done - none of my dogs need corrective collars for a walk on leash.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I didn't mean to start a heated debate. Sorry!









I personally, do not think my dog needs a choke to learn. He is a very good listener but just tends to pull a little when walking. I think this can be corrected with his regular adjustable collar. Also, he is a very laid back puppy. He isn't too overly hyper such as jumping all over people. He just calmy approaches people or for example sits wagging his tail and giving kisses on your hands.

I will give them a call and ask what "typical dog" (stated on the website) means as far as needing a choke collar.

Thanks for the info on these. I would rather not use it at all! But, if I can get away with using our own collar and attend classes that would be great.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I'm certainly no expert here, but, I myself have gone to a trainer who made me come with a choke chain and 6 foot leather lead. First off, let me tell you that my storm is a very submissive fearful dog. He was petrified of the trainer after he choked him with the coller a few times!!! I never went back after I was finished with the classes. At first, Storm responded to the choke chain corrections, but after awhile he actually started pulling to the point of not being able to breath. I said, the heck with this when he couldn't catch his breath and went with the Gentle Leader. I absolutely love it!!! What a big difference in him on the walk. He even seems to have more confidence. 

I think it does depend alot on the dog which training tool one uses. Some dogs don't need the harshher corrections to learn properly.


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## NatashaDGTGSD78250 (May 26, 2009)

I am a new GSD owner and have used the traditional collar and the choke collar, and I use the choke collar when we are working on obedience and regular collar when we are playing. I have learned the many people don't realize that you can put the choke collar on backwards and then it does become dangerous. I think that all dogs react differently, but one thing I have learned really quickly is that my dog responds to praises the best, but the correction of the choke collar when working on lose leash or commands has really helped. Just my two cents.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Melanie, thank you.

I posted a study done in Europe which some of the advocates said was nonesense, including a trainer from California that has been barred from other GSD boards because of his abusive methods. 

The bottom line is the injury done by using a choke collar to the dog's throat is horrible.

The study tested 100 dogs, fifty with and fifty without. Of the fifty with, over forty had damage to their throat. Of course the choke collar fans disregarded the study as meaningless.

I suspect you know who I am referring to, but if not send me a personal E Mail. Seems like on this board we are unable to name names.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: crazyboutgsd'sI'm certainly no expert here, but, I myself have gone to a trainer who made me come with a choke chain and 6 foot leather lead. First off, let me tell you that my storm is a very submissive fearful dog. He was petrified of the trainer after he choked him with the coller a few times!!! I never went back after I was finished with the classes. At first, Storm responded to the choke chain corrections, but after awhile he actually started pulling to the point of not being able to breath. I said, the heck with this when he couldn't catch his breath and went with the Gentle Leader. I absolutely love it!!! What a big difference in him on the walk. He even seems to have more confidence.
> 
> I think it does depend alot on the dog which training tool one uses. Some dogs don't need the harshher corrections to learn properly.


I would not let anyone correct my dog in an obedience class. It is my job to do so and Onyx was corrected by the trainer in her puppy class the first night. It was an imprinting stage for her and she has had issues w/ women ever since. I know her nerves are not that great, but this was something I regret totally. Never again will I let a "trainer" give my dog a correction unless I have seen them work, and completely trust them.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

That is the bottom line. Good trainers are tough to find. However, if you find one stick with the guy or gal.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that went through this with a trainer. The way that your baby does not like woman, well, Storm doesn't like adult men. I swear everytime he sees an older man, he flashes back to his trainer. He would get close to where he trained and would get so scared. I too regret going there, but I totally thought that I was doing good and I had a lot of reps.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is sad, the trainer that I took Onyx to, she had a prong on a GSD pup at 16 weeks in our class. I wonder how many dogs has she ruined? I went to her because she use to breed GSD's and had a fairly good rep, but now I know she has a compulsion style of training and not changing her ways to suit personalities that can't handle this type. 
The pup w/ prong was eventually returned to the breeder(he was too mouthy for the owner's liking-he is a showline) who had to retrain him in order to re-home him(she is a great trainer-reputable breeder & has her own facility in another town) That pup didn't need a prong but a more knowledgable owner!


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

> Quote:I would not let anyone correct my dog in an obedience class. It is my job to do so and Onyx was corrected by the trainer in her puppy class the first night.


Now wait In defense of this if I see a student has a handle on how to properly correct then not a problem but the majority of people do not correct properly no matter what is on the dog as a control tool. 

But then again a prong on such a baby of 16 weeks? I had A STUDENT that demanded their have a prong collar on so young..... I tried to tell them that at that age a prong was too much of a correction but they insisted.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This trainer did not even know me or my dog-first class-and Onyx was under my chair afraid. A dog came near, and she lunged at the dog growling. The trainer pulled her out and shouted no at her while yanking on her leash hard. Onyx would submissively pee whenever the trainer approached her after that-she was 4 mos. at the time. I can see if a dog is out of control and the handler is doing nothing to control, then yes the trainer should step in, but this was totally out of line in my case. And she was a pup!!! 
Sorry to get off topic on the choke chain issue...


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

We went to a training class and it was good! We were all learning the "Heel" command. Drake did need a prong put on and he did much much much better with it on.


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