# Not sure about my trainer



## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

I've been working with a "Master Trainer" who came highly recommended but even the same people who recommended her are now expressing disappointment. I am meeting with other trainers this week but I would like to get some outside opinions from more experienced people or trainers if possible. :help: 

I practice the obedience commands with my Shadow every day and he got to obey me from the 1st command, but also got to ignore the trainer. I had a perfect recall! I never even needed a correction. She worked him hard so he would listen to her again, pinning him down like wrestlers do, hard corrections on the prong collar, restraining him.. I watched in tears. 

Then she began to break my commands, like interrupting a long down and scolding him when he'd come to me on command. I feel like I've lost him. I dont have that 1st command response anymore and I dont understand how scolding him when he obeys me and giving him a treat when he breaks my command is in any way productive. I asked her and she didn't answer. Do you have any idea how that'd help my relationship with my dog at all?

I plan on talking to her again, I'll bring it up with these new trainers... but basically I'm writing because, I don't want to push these new guys' ethics to possibly badmouth a fellow trainer and she can BS me as I'm not experienced. I actually do lose sleep with the worry that I may not get my dog's trust and attention back so any comments any of you can give about this woman's approach will be very appreciated as will suggestions for screening a new trainer. Thanks in advance and I'm sorry for the long post.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

If you're dissatisfied with the service you are paying for stop going. Find a new trainer. If a trainer was being harsh with my pup and I was uncomfortable with it I would stop it. It is my responsibility to protect my pup and I would do so..I don't care what certifications or endorsements by others they have. Be your pup's advocate.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I would take my money and RUN somewhere else. 

In my opinion, there's really no reason your trainer should try and be making your dog listen to her. A trainer's job is to teach the owner how to train their dog. The only reason she should take your dog and bark commands at your dog at all is to demonstrate to you how to handle/work your dog.
You want your dog to be loyal to YOU. 
Ozzy listens to me, no questions asked. If you're not me, you can pretty much forget about him doing much of anything you ask of him - and I'm PERFECTLY okay with that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The way you're explaining it doesn't make any sense to me either. It doesn't really matter if you're not experienced and they are - if you're not happy with the trainer, if she doesn't respect you enough to answer your questions and explain what she's doing, then why would you keep going there? You're confused and so is your dog. Find another trainer.


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## OffgridAlex (Dec 11, 2012)

Sounds like a crook to me. 

If she can get the dog to listen to her and not you she can keep charging you for extra lessons to teach you how to get it to listen to you.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Get away from her before she ruins your dog. She is doing the exact opposite of what she is supposed to do.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I also think you need to run. There is no reason for a trainer to pin a dog down as you describe. I am guessing you are referring to so-called alpha rolling, which is a terrible idea for many many reasons, but is especially ridiculous in a situation where the dog is progressing in his training with his owner, but not listening to the trainer. Also, I cannot think of a single reason to scold a dog for obeying a command, or rewarding him for ignoring it. No wonder he is confused and not responding to your commands right away anymore! Those are the two biggest red flags that popped out to me, but not the only ones at all.

I think that, inexperienced or not, you should trust your instincts and find another trainer. You should _never_ be in tears about a trainer's treatment of your dog as you describe.

Don't worry about your relationship with your dog. Your trainer probably has rocked his confidence in you, but you can rebuild that trust and make it even better. Just give it some time and don't beat yourself up, you're doing the best you can.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Holy crap...RUN! 

Explain to this new trainer what you were doing, what this "master" trainer was doing and the results. You don't need to give out names but I would explain exactly what this so called trainer was doing with your dog because they will need to know so they can fix it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

This is all old school stuff not done anymore - esp the pinning down/roll ...and the goal is that the dog obeys you not the "MT"....

If what someone does to your dog makes you cry - stop them and get the dog out of there....someone wanted to force retrieve Kyra - they did one session and I stopped them....then they said I would never title her if I did not let them do it...I went on to get 6? 8? Sch3s....and 2 High in Trials.....the dumbbell work was never great, but it was always a Good....worked for me.

I vote with everyone else - QUIT and Go elsewhere.....NOW!

Lee


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

wolfstraum said:


> If what someone does to your dog makes you cry - stop them and get the dog out of there....


This is so important and true. Trust your eyes and your feelings, not "everyone recommended this person" or "well, he won a competition."


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Outdated and antiquated techniques. This person needs to get with the times and learn the newer techniques before resorting to the yank/crank and alpha roll techniques that people used before they knew better. If a trainer or anyone makes you feel uncomfortable to this point, you need to find someone else that can make this a positive and rewarding experience for both the dog AND you. This is supposed to be fun, rewarding, and exciting process...not a painful or scary experience for either of you.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Holy crap...RUN!
> 
> Explain to this new trainer what you were doing, what this "master" trainer was doing and the results. You don't need to give out names but I would explain exactly what this so called trainer was doing with your dog because they will need to know so they can fix it.


I agree with this as well. You don't need to mention any names if it makes you uncomfortable (honestly they'll probably know who you're talking about anyway), but your new trainer needs to know what they're dealing with. They may need to adjust their goals and approach based on what this current trainer has taught your dog.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Run... once you've worked with a good trainer, your stress levels go way down. What area do you live in, perhaps we can suggest a much better trainer for you. Training your dog should be a positive experience and you should leave happy, not in tears.... unless there tears of joy!


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I am not experienced or anything, but I would most certainly run! Training is supposed to be fun for you and your dog it also needs to end positive as I was recently told, because my adopted dog is fearful to training because of an abusive home. Let us know your location I'm sure there are many people here that can help you find a trainer who uses positive reinforcement.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Sounds like she's trying to break all the personality out of your dog. Really at the pinning down wrestling move, I would have been out of there. I know when you were watching this you were probably too stunned to think it out, but now that you can reflect on it, go with your gut.

We trained with prong collars, at the time it was what we needed, but our trainer never did a "pop" so hard that the dog yelped. If you like the place but not this trainer, you need to let the trainers know your limits on what you will let them do with your dog and be firm. 

Will your dog trust you? Watch your dog's reaction when you bring it back, does he show fear or signs of stress? Or is he having fun? What is your goal? When we go to training, for me there must be some level of fun. Others may not care about that.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Gretchen said:


> Sounds like she's trying to break all the personality out of your dog. Really at the pinning down wrestling move, I would have been out of there. I know when you were watching this you were probably too stunned to think it out, but now that you can reflect on it, go with your gut.


Totally agree with Gretchen, and I want to add a personal anecdote because from your post, OP, I suspect you are already beating yourself up.

I've been in your shoes, literally. A few times, I'm sorry to admit. But the thing is...you do your research, you place your trust in someone, you don't know that much about the subject, you pay good money...they do something you're uncomfortable with, but are you just being stupid? Maybe you're one of those dreaded "pet parents" that treats an animal like a human? Maybe this is how everyone does it, how it needs to be done? Maybe if you stop things, your dog is going to morph into an unruly monster? _You don't know._ Except most people will recognize abuse, and it sounds like you have. It's just hard to label it as such, since most of us have a tendency to minimize stuff like that.

I'm a professional horse trainer and always had the goal of becoming one, and as a teenager I did several things I regret hugely because successful trainers told me to (nothing illegal or obviously abusive, but cruel nonetheless IMO, and I knew it was wrong at the time). I've also done the same with a dog once, on a smaller scale.

Now, 20+ years later, as a professional horse trainer and an experienced dog handler, I'm pretty immune to that kind of pressure. But most people aren't--the whole point of hiring a trainer is that you place your confidence in them, because you don't have the knowledge to train your dog on your own. It's really hard to stop things in the moment, especially because most trainers are also good salesmen and have forceful personalities.

No reason to let it continue, though. Don't feel bad for not stopping it in the moment, but do your best to prevent it from happening in the future!


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks everybody! Well I feel better knowing I wasn't stupid for thinking "big dog" training shouldn't be this barbaric nightmare but I feel worse knowing I was right, I should've done more to stop it, Shadow didn't deserve it.

The "MT" studied training at PCCI in NJ. I hadn't heard of it but one of the references was Shadow's breeder and I watched one of her sessions before I brought him home. I spoke to her today and she said she needs the control so she can pass it to me. I'm his biggest distraction and so she broke my command so she can teach him to ignore every distraction. Her "big" clients are people who dont see their dogs for weeks, just hire people to care for them and most of her clients arent there while she works. That's not me. 

The hold she did, she calls it "putting him in an arc" where she straddled him and pinned his head down. I didn't notice her flipping him over but one of her clients was restraining me because before I started all the crying I was going to jump in between them. I had no words and this was right before the holidays so it's been **** calling other places while they were probably out for winter break.

I'm currently in Puerto Rico, so I'm not sure you guys know anyone here but it's a small world. Tomorrow I'm meeting a trainer from Highland Canine Training school at North Carolina and on Friday I'm meeting some guys from Tom Rose. A 3rd option is another trainer from Tom Rose with a business in Missouri (Controlled Chaos) but he does training via Skype. 

I hope one of these guys can help mend whatever damage has been done. Shadow wags his tail when I talk to him, I still get the slobbery kisses, his breathing is relaxed and he howls at me when I leave and when I come back. So I hope it's not all lost.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know how old your pup is. I would not let this person or her cronies anywhere near your dog again. 

I think that depending on the age of your puppy/dog, I would totally take a complete break from training. For a youngster 6 months or less, I would take 1-2 weeks off. 6-12 months 2-6 weeks off, and over 12 months old, I would probably take 2-3 months off. 

I would just enjoy the dog during this time. Minimum stuff, take him on walks, or have him sit while you put the leash on him. Nothing major. 

Then I would start all over again with treats and praise and basic commands. I would spend the waiting time, to find someone else to train with and explain that you had a bad experience with a trainer and you would like to sit in a class without your dog to see what methods the trainer uses. 

After the break, take the dog to classes, keep training light and fun, and quit when your dog still wants more. 

There is plenty of time to fine tune it later. 

I think if people tried to stop me from getting to my dog, people would be getting decked.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks Seltzer, he is 8 months old. Yup a break it'll be cuz I need to be triple sure about who we'll be working with next.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

And thanks RowdyDogs expressed my sentiments exactly. Shadow is my first GSD, my first big breed dog. Previously I had Pomeranians and a Maltese that came pre-trained. I taught them all basic obedience but it was..easy. I was warned that training a "big dog" is supposed to be rough or the dog won't respect you. I was told of methods that make my awful training session seem heavenly by comparison and that I was being too nervous. So I had these 2nd doubts that maybe I am being an overprotective first time mommy. I feel pretty vindicated right now..


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Phoebes said:


> I've been working with a "Master Trainer" who came highly recommended but even the same people who recommended her are now expressing disappointment. I am meeting with other trainers this week but I would like to get some outside opinions from more experienced people or trainers if possible. :help:
> 
> I practice the obedience commands with my Shadow every day and he got to obey me from the 1st command, but also got to ignore the trainer. I had a *perfect recall*! I never even needed a correction. She worked him hard so he would listen to her again, pinning him down like wrestlers do, hard corrections on the prong collar, restraining him.. *I watched in tears. *
> 
> ...


 
A confusing post! (to me anyway)

Who is handling your dog - you or the trainer?

If you have the ability to "get 1at command obedience" and a "perfect" recall - why are you going to a trainer in the first place?

BTW - how old is your dog?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> This is *all old school stuff* not done anymore - esp the pinning down/roll ...and the goal is that the dog obeys you not the "MT"....
> 
> If what someone does to your dog makes you cry - stop them and get the dog out of there....someone wanted to force retrieve Kyra - they did one session and I stopped them....then they said I would never title her if I did not let them do it...I went on to get 6? 8? Sch3s....and 2 High in Trials.....the dumbbell work was never great, but it was always a Good....worked for me.
> 
> ...


 
She should find a new trainer (if she even needs one at all!).

But let's not knock ALL of the "old" trainers, as i remember some of the "old time' dogs did pretty well and also worked very enthusastically as well!

Not everything could have been bad, huh?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

"she worked him hard so he would listen to her again, pinning him down like wrestlers do, hard corrections on the prong collar, restraining him"

Run. 

Your instincts are right.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I am with codmaster. From your first post it sounded like you were doing a really good job training him on your own. No trainer is better than a bad trainer! If you were having success and having fun then you might not need a trainer. Also the dog is still very young so there is plenty of time to train and proof the commands. He will be a work in progress whether you are working with a professional trainer or not. Personally I do not work with *any* trainer that touches my dog. Their job is to help me communicate more clearly to my dog. As the owner, only *I* handle the dog and touch the dog (well, they can pet my dog and such but you get what I mean...while the dog is in "work" mode it is only me).


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I am with codmaster. From your first post it sounded like you were doing a really good job training him on your own. No trainer is better than a bad trainer! If you were having success and having fun then you might not need a trainer. Also the dog is still very young so there is plenty of time to train and proof the commands. He will be a work in progress whether you are working with a professional trainer or not. Personally I do not work with *any* trainer that touches my dog. Their job is to help me communicate more clearly to my dog. As the owner, only *I* handle the dog and touch the dog (well, they can pet my dog and such but you get what I mean...while the dog is in "work" mode it is only me).


AGREED

These dogs are generally more intelligent and trainable then any toy breed. IMO a trainers job is to teach you how to train your dog. Some dogs can be worked by multi handlers but most work best with their primary handler (YOU). A trainers job is to facilitate that relationship, empower and educate you. Yes, sometimes some methods can appear rough to the uneducated, but these methods should never be exclusive to posative reenforcement. Also, corrections are generally a good way to remove unwanted behaviors not used in the teaching faze of training, which it sounds like your pup is still in..

Personally if I were you I'd do some research and just do it yourself, despite what some would have you believe its far from rocket science. Especially if your just looking to put basic OB on the dog. 

Also, please dont let this experience prevent you from properly disciplining the dog when necessary, you will only be doing him and yourself a disservice down the road. These dogs are amazingly resilient I very much doubt there is any lasting harm done to him by a being handled roughly based on how you describe his behavior. Its probably a much bigger deal to you then it is to him.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't know how old your pup is. I would not let this person or her cronies anywhere near your dog again.
> 
> I think that depending on the age of your puppy/dog, I would totally take a complete break from training. For a youngster 6 months or less, I would take 1-2 weeks off. 6-12 months 2-6 weeks off, and over 12 months old, I would probably take 2-3 months off.
> 
> ...


I think this is excellent advice!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

One of her clients restrained you????? 
What????? This is as outrageous as the trainer's behavior. 

I suggest you learn a few good commands. "Stop doing that to my dog!" "Get your hands off me." "No, do not do that."


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Phoebes said:


> The hold she did, she calls it "putting him in an arc" where she straddled him and pinned his head down. I didn't notice her flipping him over but one of her clients was restraining me because before I started all the crying I was going to jump in between them. I had no words and this was right before the holidays so it's been **** calling other places while they were probably out for winter break.


Wow. :angryfire: I've never used a trainer that I wouldn't hand my leash over to - my dogs have often been used as the demo dog in classes because they're usually ahead of most of the other dogs. BUT, I do the training, and they don't correct my dog, they've just used them to demonstrate whatever skill the class will be working on next. I can't even fathom a trainer doing that with one of my dogs, and I'd be LIVID if someone else got in my way while I tried to prevent it from happening. I wouldn't be crying, I'd be yelling obscenities. 



> 3rd option is another trainer from Tom Rose with a business in Missouri (Controlled Chaos) but he does training via Skype.


I know who you're referring to, his wife Cheryl used to be a member here. I don't know anything about training via Skype, but I think he'd be a fine choice if you decide to go that route.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For a person new to training, I think a trainer or classes are invaluable, though I agree that a bad trainer is worse than not trainer. Group classes are great because they are cheaper than individual training, they hold their own distractions with a variety of people and dogs, and everyone is dealing with their own problems which you can gain a lot from. And working with a group, a lot of times, gives me the motivation to have a good week every week -- always someone's dog is giving them more problems than mine, so it is kind of a boost too. 

I hope one bad trainer does not taint the whole of trainers for you. Because I think that you may miss out by not having a trainer at all. A trainer can see things about how our dogs react to our body language that we may not recognize ourselves, and they may have suggestions about things we may never think of on our own. 

I am sorry you had such a crumby go-round with this yayhoo. Good luck finding someone else.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

middleofnowhere said:


> One of her clients restrained you?????
> What????? This is as outrageous as the trainer's behavior.
> 
> I suggest you *learn a few good commands*. "Stop doing that to my dog!" "Get your hands off me." "No, do not do that."


 
Not to mention "^%^%%$%$##$%^&^&"!


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

codmaster said:


> A confusing post! (to me anyway)
> 
> Who is handling your dog - you or the trainer?
> 
> ...



He is 8 months old. There were times she'd handle him and others when I did. For example she'd maybe do a walk-thru with him and then it'd be my turn after. Things were fine for a while, the prong was introduced only recently but it was used gently and she never even raised her voice at him until that last class. 

He's not a pet or a show dog. There's a job waiting for him when he's ready so the training is to get him working beyond basic obedience. We had 1st command obedience at a basic level but there's more that I need him to learn. I can teach him to give me his paw and show me his teeth but not how to work off leash. 

We were on the right track and things were going very well until that happened. He's not all bad, he doesn't ignore me, it's just that his responses haven't been the same. So I've been taking it very easy with him until I find someone good to help me because I don't want to make it worse.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

I didn't train him on my own. We had Basic Obedience with the same trainer and it was a completely different experience. It was as we were moving into Advanced Obedience that her methods changed drastically. He didn't down when she asked, that was her response and that was my last class. 

It was confusing because people have been telling me that's how it's supposed to be. It didn't make sense, I felt I was owed an explanation, she didnt want to talk til I cooled down but now I've listened to it and it makes less sense than what I was thinking (that she was hormonal and was having a bad side effect after taking the wrong medication). I'm glad I wrote this board because my friends and family have experienced worse training their dogs and I've seen reviews about worse things. So really if anyone here had said "yes that's how it is, and it only looks rough" then I would have just forgotten about a service dog.

I'll still train my dog, but just like selzer recommended, we're taking it easy for now. I did speak to a trainer today and he's added that my loss of control could be that he's a teenager now.

Thanks Blitzkrieg1, I can do that too... his teething phase was the hardest and I survived it  so I can check books and training videos. Anyone have suggestions? 

And as for middleofnowhere and codmaster's suggestions about key phrases, have you ever been in a position where you wanted to scream so bad that your voice wouldn't come out? I have. Twice. One involved a death and this was the second.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Phoebes said:


> I didn't train him on my own. We had Basic Obedience with the same trainer and it was a completely different experience. It was as we were moving into Advanced Obedience that her methods changed drastically. He didn't down when she asked, that was her response and that was my last class.
> 
> It was confusing because people have been telling me that's how it's supposed to be. It didn't make sense, I felt I was owed an explanation, she didnt want to talk til I cooled down but now I've listened to it and it makes less sense than what I was thinking (that she was hormonal and was having a bad side effect after taking the wrong medication). I'm glad I wrote this board because my friends and family have experienced worse training their dogs and I've seen reviews about worse things. So really if anyone here had said "yes that's how it is, and it only looks rough" then I would have just forgotten about a service dog.
> 
> ...


Phoebes,

I would take a little break from training your dog, but I wouldn't do it for too long - maybe a week or two max.; and that is much more for you than your dog. If you had a good relationship with your dog before the trainer incident, then you will have now. Dogs don't "think" about stuff like humans do and will not "hold a grudge" against you for what happened!.

And again assuming that he had a good temperament before (and he sounds like he does) then a little rough stuff will not have a lasting impact on him - esp. since it was someone else and not you anyway. 

We had a somewhat similar training session wih my then 3.5 yo male GSD when I took him to a trainer due to some serious DA and bullying on his part toward another specific GSD male. We had the two muzzled and had them together and my bully tried to jump on the other dog who tried to first hide behind his owner and then tried to fight back. 

The trainer grabbed my guy and laid him on the ground and held him till he looked away (a sign of submission!) (by the way - should have heard the tremendous growling that emanated from my dog during this action - trainer told me later that he was very glad we had a sturdy muzzle on him!) and then we tried it again with the two dogs. Had to do the same thing twice more - one more by the trainer and then he had me do the same thing - and we finally got the dogs to be able to lay down next to each other and stay calm! So it did work and next time they were together (we are both in a group of GSD owners who meet weekly!); they were MUCH, MUCH better being around each other.

AND next time we were at the trainers facility - my guy was his usual friendly self (he knew him from us training there for a while previously) with the trainer - no reaction whatsoever from the admittedly rough corrections doled out to my dog.

Depends a lot on the temperament and pesonality of the dog, I think.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm with Selzer. Anyone keeps me from getting to my dog, they'd be looking into dentures next!  I don't mind if stiff penalties are handed out as long as I am the one doing it. That 'trainer' was way out of bounds.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks codmaster. LOL I think you're right that the only one who was traumatized was me! I really am feeling much better. I'm new here so it's a nice surprise that I'm getting this much support and constructive advice. 

Shadow actually does have a great temperament. He's a tank that way and a big strong boy.  The ex-trainer is a sumo wrestler of a woman though so it made a wicked nasty impression. 

You know, if the goal had been to resolve an aggression problem like yours, I think I would have understood and accepted this method. Thanks for letting me know yours got through that unscathed and I'm glad it worked out for you. I have this overwhelming sense of pride, honor, joy that I'm Shadow's person so it was killing me that I had betrayed that. I actually feel guilty that dogs don't hold grudges over my mistakes. 

In my case, I feel it's unwarranted (read: ridiculous) that he got such a harsh correction for behavior the trainer knew I wanted, it's even on the contract. And I also hope that her work breaking my commands doesn't leave a lasting impact either. 

He's been acting a little tense around new people, which is new for him so of course I worried it might be due to the rough handling experience, but at least the new potential trainer we already met didn't seem concerned.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I know who you're referring to, his wife Cheryl used to be a member here. I don't know anything about training via Skype, but I think he'd be a fine choice if you decide to go that route.


Cassidy's Mom, Thanks for the recommendation! I'm loving Cheryl's work. I wrote Kevin and I'll know soon enough if he can help. I wish I knew them personally, I'd offer them to stay at our beachfront apartment so he could train my dog in person.

Aahh fingers crossed.


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