# Schutzhund and personel protection



## trapper66 (Nov 16, 2010)

What do you think of training your dog for personal protection and schutzhund? Is this a good idea?


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I think training in Schutzhund is a great idea if you have the commitment to it and the dog has the nerves and desire for it. Personal protection I'm not thrilled with personally (and very general) because many "trainers" that do PP have no clue what they are doing and just trach the dog to bite and not quite as balanced as they should be even those that claim they only do it to dogs that have the drive and temper for it. Also a lot of people claim they want to train a personal protection dog but just want a dog that will protect them and don't realize how much it takes for a true PP dog in training and constant continued training after the fact. They are not just the normal family pet you have to have a bit more diligence with them. 

However if you are looking into PP just for some protection a well bred well trained socialized GSD will generally be more then fine.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Are you saying you want to train in Schutzhund AND PPD? There is a stark difference. One is for sport and is a breed test. The other....well...is self explanatory!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would train my dog in SchH first, get a good foundation on the obedience/bite targeting and then transfer over to PP after titling to a 3. 

It would be hard to do both, because PP dogs can bite dirty, and it is not allowed in SchH.


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## trapper66 (Nov 16, 2010)

I realize one is sport. I wondering could they do both? Also is it actually a good idea. What is a dirty bite? Not sure I would like to try training in schutzhund and looking into it. She is doing her obedience now.


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## trapper66 (Nov 16, 2010)

I realize one is sport. I wondering could they do both? Also is it actually a good idea. What is a dirty bite? Not sure I would like to try training in schutzhund and looking into it.
She is doing her obedience now


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## trapper66 (Nov 16, 2010)

I realize one is sport. I wondering could they do both? Also is it actually a good idea. What is a dirty bite? Not sure I would like to try training in schutzhund and looking into it. She is doing her obedience now.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

In PP the dogs pretty much bite anywhere and however from what I understand. In SchH having a targeted bite is very important...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well lets get some information on personal protection. Over the years I have personally trained dogs for personal protection -- it is also part of the police dog description - search and apprehend , handler/officer protection -- . I have trained for well known recording artists, film stars, multi millionaires with islands in the Barbudos , major sports celebrities , jewellers with $$$ worth of "rocks" , Toronto's corporate elite. Their are dogs of mine that do and did VIP security -- 
Unlike schutzhund this demands very sound very reliable dogs . 
What is the point of having a protection dog that you have to leave at home because it is a liability , a worry that needs to be managed every second. The dog should be able to accompany you like a second skin. The dog must be comfortable in all and every environment and never fire off or act out of prey stimulation . There must be some critical thinking ability. Is the man who is about to shake hands safe -- watch him -- pick up the vibes of the situation -- act on it if necessary.
In Campagne , a level of French Ring , there are situations which are set up where you never know how it will proceed , will it be friendly or hostile? 

These are traits that are valuable to real herding. Don't get me going on the trials and the mess that is making . I mean real herding. I communicate on a regular basis with herders still working - but they are not GSD --- a more ancestral , regional form that was part of the make up before public registrations -- read Bred for Perfection and see how profound single decisions or single personalities can shift a breed . 
The herding dog has to be calm. Has to be ever watchful. Has to control a situation. There has to be an intelligence.

I find that intelligence is very much over looked. I am talking about a natural intelligence , not a trick training response. 

If you can find a good trainer for personal protection a lot of safeguards and controls will be built in. It is not wild west punch up style .

Schutzhund does not discriminate and only allow sound nerved animals to participate. I think quite the opposite at the moment , hope things change . Reactive dogs can do well because they look flashy . 

I would not choose a sharp dog for personal protection.
When the *#[email protected]# hits the fan the dog must be there -- rise to the level of aggression that it takes to control this situation. Not be a flighty sharp dog that might provoke an action and then bale out when there is a response.

Choosing the right genetics is important.
Showing the young candidate the big wide world as a safe place , give him competence . Schutzhund tends to take very young dogs and stimulate them to arousal -- man riding by in distance - reason to bark -- NO! , teasing young pup to advance , be hyper suspicious NO!. 

The power of a good personal protection dog is that it gives you confidence. The dog will have a bearing that telegraphs power and prevention is the best thing. A bite , a real bite would be very rare , if at all.

my thoughts, my experience 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Carmen I totally understand what you are saying and that is what a PPD should be...but almost every "average joe" person I've ever met who has a PPD or wants to train a PPD has a nervy dog that will fire off without any provocation. Seems like more people (at least in our area) want a junk yard dog that will eat anyone that comes into their house and they all call it a Personal Protection Dog. Most people do not need a PPD. Most people cannot take the dog with them to work or around like executives and jewelers...so the dog's primary function is as guardian of the home- in which case there are other layers of security that should be in place in addition to a dog. 

Good dogs are good dogs regardless of what role they fill. It's the character of the dog...not necessarily the training. If you have a good SchH dog that is also capable of PP then it will do fine. It's certainly not like SchH will take the "fight" out of the dog. But let's be honest...SchH clubs never have a problem getting people out to do bitework. It's the Obedience and tracking that most people are too lazy or uninterested in doing. Personally I think that's why more people go to the "PPD" type training.

Additionally it is very important to find a competent trainer in either venue. Carmen points out some of the pitfalls of SchH trainers...but there are plenty of poor PPD trainers out there as well that do nothing but create a fear biter by overwhelming the dog in defense. So be careful, find knowledgable people to help you with the training, and you'll be fine.


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## JLOCKHART29 (Aug 23, 2009)

trapper66 said:


> I realize one is sport. I wondering could they do both? Also is it actually a good idea. What is a dirty bite? Not sure I would like to try training in schutzhund and looking into it. She is doing her obedience now.


Only been training in Schutzhund for 6 months so take this as such but a dirty biter is a Schutzhund dog biting anything but the arm or bumping and nipping the arm in the blind or field when the helper is still such in bark and hold or non agressive movement such as transport. Schutzhund is very presise in its patterns and positions. One thing that attracted me to Schutzhund was the OB and tracking as well as the bite work. The first to add the control to a dog given promission to bite so to speak...but still enjoy the bite work most!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I think most good quality GSDs can do schutzhund (it should be that way). I think a minority of those dogs can be PPD dogs. I think my male could be a great PPD dog, were as my female would not. My male is much more aloof of people, and not at all interested in anyone's attention other than me (or my roommates). My female would lick a stranger to death, unless my male growls first, then she takes her que's off of him. A PPD dog has to have a certain level of... civil aggression. 

In schutzhund, biting is a game. In PPD, the dog must be trained such that it understands we are biting "for real", and many dogs don't have the nerves for that. The worst case is a PPD who is fear biting, induced by training hard in defense when the dog isn't cut out for it. A good PPD, in my opinion, should be rock solid nerved, not aggressive, not unpredictable, but more than willing to bring on the sh*t when needed


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> In schutzhund, biting is a game.


Not everyone trains schutzhund as a game.

And even some of the dogs that are trained in protection as a game in schutzhund don't see it that same way in real life.


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