# What would you do if your GSD killed another of your pets? (moved from chat)



## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

Just wondering overall. I have 2 cats and 2 dogs. I am very bonded with all of them in different ways. I'm not sure what I would do if ever Gunther killed one of them. So I'm wondering, what would YOU do if your GSD ever killed another one of your pets. Whether accidentally or on purpose, would you be able to forgive and move on? Would you rehome the dog? Would you ever be able to look at the dog the same?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.

SuperG


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG


I concur


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG


This.

My fault, i probably have a hard time looking at the dog for quite some time though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG


I third this


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

It would depend on the circumstance.... accidental would be forgiven (this to me means no aggression involved). If however one of my girls killed another animal that was welcome in our home especially one that lives there I would not rehome her but would have her evaluated to discover the reason for her actions. If in anyway it related to her aggression levels and not a medical condition or something that would be able to be corrected with training I would have to consider having her pts for the safety of others.


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

I agree with previous posters - I would completely blame myself. I do think I would ultimately forgive and move on. Wouldn't really have any other choice. I don't think I would rehome.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG



Yep. Same here.
I basically micromanage Hans around our other pets. While I don't think he would purposely try to kill our Cowdog, he weighs twice as much as she does, and I worry that he might play too rough. I would never leave them alone.
There's no doubt in my mind that he would love to catch a kitty and kill it, so I just make sure there is no opportunity to do so.


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

My son faced this. It was just horrible all the way around. His female 2 yr. old pit bull, killed his 12 yr husky mix. Just about decapitated him. My son had the pit PTS.
Like I said it was a horrible situation, but I don't think I would have put the dog down.
It was not my decision to make.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

RebGyp said:


> My son faced this. It was just horrible all the way around. His female 2 yr. old pit bull, killed his 12 yr husky mix. Just about decapitated him. My son had the pit PTS.
> Like I said it was a horrible situation, but I don't think I would have put the dog down.
> It was not my decision to make.


 
That is terrible... I feel bad for the decision your son had to make. I agree with his decision though. It would not be about the anger.. as others have said you would carry that burden as a human not as a dog... but about the safety of others, human and animal that the dog may have contact with in the future.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

blame self for bad management -- dogs are just that , dogs, animals


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

It depends, my animals all get along, well the 2 older cats hate the dogs but they don't fight or anything. The 2 younger cats are best friends with my dogs. 

If it was a random attack or an out of no where attack, I would be very upset, I would take them to the Vet to run tests but I don't know that I could ever trust the dog again. I don't know, I love Sinister to death, I don't think I could be mad at him forever. I love my little Draven but I might not trust him 100% again. 

I would just be heartbroken.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Hondo killed a kitten in my barn before I even realized it was in the stall with us. 100% my fault. Did not hold Hondo responsible at all. It would have been no different if the kitten was in my home, Hondo would have killed it. Still, my fault.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would be upset with myself. I would not rehome or PTS.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would analyze what the heck I missed for signs prior to that and how I could have been so stupid to put both in that situation. I would not put the dog to sleep or rehome but take it as a huge lesson. They are just animals with animal instincts and everything they do is our responsibility.
The worst that happened in that field was when (10+ years ago) I caught an escaped hen while my sight hounds were off leash in another area of the property and I thought they didn't see me. But....he came from nowhere and janked the hen out of my hands: dead. That still bothers me to this day.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG


Exactly. 

I have 1 dog, 2 cats, 2 snakes, and live with 2 rats. He likes other animals a lot inside the house, but outside the house he _has _killed small animals before. The prey drive is there, and I don't think it's realistic to claim that I 100% believe that he'll never hurt any of my other pets. He's a high prey drive low threshold dog. If he gets a hold of another pet in the house, it's _my _fault. 

I'd be upset, yes, and maybe I would be mad at my dog for a day. I don't know, I'm not always rational and I love one of my cats very, very much. Not nearly as much as I love my dog, but that doesn't mean I'd feel differently if he killed her. 

I've actually asked my sister the same question before (after hearing about a dog that was PTS for attacking a cat). She is a cat person all the way, and while she loves my dog, on most days she barely tolerates him. Her own cat is very close to her heart, but she shares my opinion - if a dog kills a cat, you shouldn't really be blaming the dog.


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

A few months back my dogs killed a neighbors cat. I didn't blame the dogs one bit. It was the neighbors fault, to allow her cats to stray in my yard. 9 years ago when I moved into this house I had told the neighbor that I would not be held responsible for her cats well being should they venture into my yard.
I felt bad for the little girl whose cat it was.
If you are going to have multiple animals, it is your responsibility for their safety.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Meh, I'd just pick up another gold fish.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I can't say what I would do. It would depend on the circumstances and how/what happened. In some cases I can see putting down an animal, in others I can't.

I do know I would look at the situation very carefully before I made any decisions.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Just curious.....your dog catches, kills and eats a wild rabbit in your yard....is it ok?

Dog catches, kills and eats neighbours cat in your yard...is it ok?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Saphire said:


> Just curious.....your dog catches, kills and eats a wild rabbit in your yard....is it ok?
> 
> Dog catches, kills and eats neighbours cat in your yard...is it ok?


Baby bun buns in the yard succumb to many of dog i am sure, so yes no ones fault. Cats in your yard? No ones fault either. 

I dont know if its peachy and you just move on like "oh hey neighbor! Cats dead! " but i think you chalk it up a accident and go from there.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Old neighbors of our had Borders and they stayed with us until there owners came back from Cozumel, well rabbits came into the yard while they were on vacay and birthed some babies. When they got home they let chase n mags out in the yard and it was a bun slaughter. They saved a fair share of them and because they were going to "put them out if there misery " i volunteered to drive them up to a place called shades of hope in pefferlaw. All of the bunnies they i took up survived. They were fat cute little guys.


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

I would blame myself also. We have a cat he wrestles with but we always watch them and the cat has areas to run to where Bo has no access. They grew up together so he looks out for him. Any other cat outside I know would be in trouble with his drive. Yes he has also caught a rabbit in the yard. I don't kid myself about his prey drive and know he will kill anything small outside. I wouldn't blame him anymore then I'd blame my cat for catching a mouse or a bird...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I would be devastated. Absolutely devastated if one if my dogs killed one of my other animals. I honestly don't know how I would feel or cope. 

I love all of my animals, equally. Any one of their loss at the hands of another, I don't know. Rehoming may happen. I just don't know and will never find out, hopefully. 

I have had a dog kill a baby bunny at search training. I was horrified. 

I would also be horrified if my dog killed someone's pet. Whether it was in my my yard on not. That is an animal someone loved. I would not be able to pass it off as "oops it was in my yard". But I doubt I would get rid of the dog. 

I have, on two occasions, had a neighbors pet end up in my yard. And my dogs have gone after it. But they were recalled with no injury to the pets, a turtle and a ferret. 

My bosses dogs just killed 2 of her chickens and injured one pretty badly. She is still a bit traumatized by the mayhem and the sight of her dogs tugging with one of them. 

Yes they are dogs. Yes they have instincts. Yes we accept it. But to actually see your beloved pet tearing into a screaming animal. It's not something you write off. At least I wouldn't.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

gsdsar said:


> I would be devastated. Absolutely devastated if one if my dogs killed one of my other animals. I honestly don't know how I would feel or cope.
> 
> I love all of my animals, equally. Any one of their loss at the hands of another, I don't know. Rehoming may happen. I just don't know and will never find out, hopefully.
> 
> ...


Would that also include squirrels?

I guess the reason I ask is that we are talking about dogs and how much we can/should expect in certain situations. I have no cats or pets other than Gus. He chases squirrels and I have no doubt he would kill one should he catch it. I feel he would do the same to a rabbit or cat. My neighbour has 5 outdoor cats, all of which USED to visit our fenced in yard. It was her that came to me and said she understands if Gus should "get" one of her cats. The thought made me cringe but is it different from the squirrel or rabbit?


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Saphire said:


> Just curious.....your dog catches, kills and eats a wild rabbit in your yard....is it ok?
> 
> Dog catches, kills and eats neighbours cat in your yard...is it ok?



See, even with this I can't really say because my first thoughts don't go to simplicity of dog/cat/rabbit/squirrel. Instead it's...is this a new behavior, did I know my dog was at a higher risk of this behavior? (aside from the dog being an animal in itself of course), is the dog showing signs of aggressive behavior in other ways? Is this simply high drive and and opps or a sign or something greater?

Maybe I just over analyze some things, lol.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

It happened. I euthanized. But only because he was extremely fear aggressive to begin with and had numerous anxiety and stress related problems. He could not be rehomed. Could not be trusted outside of the home. His only saving grace was he could be managed just fine IN the home.

Then one day out of the blue, at 3 years old, he killed a cat he had lived with his entire life. Within the next month he went after one of the other cats 3 times, destroying my mattress and trashing my bedroom in the process. He was now no longer able to be managed in the house.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Anubis_Star said:


> It happened. I euthanized. But only because he was extremely fear aggressive to begin with and had numerous anxiety and stress related problems. He could not be rehomed. Could not be trusted outside of the home. His only saving grace was he could be managed just fine IN the home.
> 
> Then one day out of the blue, at 3 years old, he killed a cat he had lived with his entire life. Within the next month he went after one of the other cats 3 times, destroying my mattress and trashing my bedroom in the process. He was now no longer able to be managed in the house.


It's like a light bulb going off over head. I think you bring up the big and little of it. It's not if its a rabbit or cat or dog or squirrel, of that it even happened, but on if it's something that can or cannot be managed in the end.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

I think dogs that just go about killing things willy-nilly should be shot or put down. I am amazed that people seem to think it is acceptable for a dog to kill pets such as cats. As far as I am concerned if you have a dog that can't distinguish between what it is allowed to kill and what it isn't allowed to kill then it is useless and a liability. Sure, all dogs have an instinct to chase and kill fast little animals, they are predators after all. Until you can teach them what's right and what's wrong then the fault usually lies with the owners. 

We actually encourage our dogs to chase and kill rabbits, rats, and mice, but only when we say so. They are pests here. We used to have a dog that we trained to hunt and kill kangaroos, but that was a long time ago. We have neighbors whose dogs hunt wild pigs. It is forbidden for our dogs to kill our livestock and pets however. From the moment we bring the puppy home we introduce it to the pets and livestock and train it accordingly. Usually the dog soon learns what is acceptable to kill and what is not. We do on rare occasions come across dogs that just like to kill things willy-nilly and if it's young and we can, we usually re-home it. If a dog makes a mistake we usually let it slide, but repetitive offenses usually result with the dog being shot. 

My White Swiss killed some goslings once, this was my fault because he was young and I thought I could trust him. It was his first offense and I was very angry at him. I couldn't correct him because he had done the dirty deed when I was out so I just ignored him and disposed of the dead birds. I couldn't look at him for days. I then did some more training and observing, and he never did it again.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

It would really depend on what kind of pet it was and what the circumstances were.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

Growing up we had a black lab/pit mix that attacked all of our other dogs, including the family GSD to the point of serious operations and vet visits. Luckily none ever led to death. My parents fenced off the underneath of the deck (the deck was a 2nd story deck) and made that the dogs new home. He lived in there. My parents (mainly my mom) put all the other dogs in the garage when she wanted to let this dog out to run and play and then he went back in. They now have a female dog that we think has Australian shepherd mix in her. That dog attacked their black lab out of the blue one day and the lab was inside the house with a tube inserted into his back to drain pus out for at least a month. My parents keep her in a separate kennel. I just don't know if I could do what my parents did with either dog. I can't stand that female they have now and don't pay her any attention when I visit their house. My parents have made it work both times but I just don't know if I could.


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

I think that there is a BIG difference, with a pet within your home. To have your dog attack and/or kill another family member is totally different than that of a squirrel, neighbors cat. While I don't like to see my dogs hurt ANY other animal, we must not forget that they are animals. They have a different standard than us. Dogs are animals, and when we as humans try to humanize them, is where we get into trouble.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

RebGyp said:


> I think that there is a BIG difference, with a pet within your home. To have your dog attack and/or kill another family member is totally different than that of a squirrel, neighbors cat. While I don't like to see my dogs hurt ANY other animal, we must not forget that they are animals. They have a different standard than us. Dogs are animals, and when we as humans try to humanize them, is where we get into trouble.


And that was my original question. Nothing to do with squirrels, rabbits, etc. Just another one of your pets, like you said... another family member.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had a dog that killed my pet chicken, I wanted to euthanize. I let people talk me out of it. She went on to kill a kitten and two puppies. I felt like I failed them all. My Bear killed things, not right in the head at all. I loved that dog but I opted to euthanize before someone paid dearly for my mistakes. He would have killed my other dogs if I had ever given him the chance.
Killing vermin is one thing, but the yard and the house are neutral ground. Nothing dies here.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't think animal aggression alone should be grounds for euthanasia. Some dogs can't be around other animals. Especially prey like animals - cats, pet rabbits, pet chickens. But if they're otherwise stable and not human aggressive, rehome them. If my luther was otherwise a good dog, I wouldn't of euthanized him for killing the cat. I would of found him a good home with no other small pets

Dogs ARE dogs. And our breed is full of prey drive. It's the same people who get a pit bull but then flip out when it hates their other dog.

My trainer and his wife each have male malinois that they do mondio and ipo with. Both intact. These dogs are fine together if they're being worked and controlled. But they will KILL eachother if one somehow gets out where the other one is. These are not bad dogs. And they have a female intact mal, older, both dogs are fine with her. They have a little drop kick neutered male mutt thing, both dogs are fine with all 10 lbs of him. They have 2 cats that the mals leave alone. These are great dogs. That would KILL each other if given the chance.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG



This. And only this. I would harbor no hard feelings to the animal responsible for the killing because at the end of the day we are sharing our homes with animals and we should consider them as such. They can't help their instincts, even if they've been "good" with said animal for years.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't know. I have an almost 15 year old 13 lb dog and a 7 lb cat. They are both as important to me as my puppy. If he killed them, I'm not sure that I would be able to say, 'oh well, dogs will be dogs'. Some of the ones saying that seem to be talking about if the dog killed a cat or other furry. What if it was your other dog?? 

For Varik to kill one of my other pets, he would have had to make a concerted effort to hurt them ... the old dog is kept in the master suite and the cat has a baby gate to keep half the house dog free. The puppy is never out unattended (not trustworthy), and would be confined to a room, door shut, if he ever earns that privilege in the misty future. Fortunately, although motion can set him off, he doesn't chase the cat even when she has the crazies, although he will whimper and be transfixed by the movement.

I wouldn't euthanize, but I'm not sure I could keep him either. It would be so traumatic. Of course, that's why I'm always hypervigilant with the cat (she's the only one he has access to). Even after 18 months, I still take no chances.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Galathiel said:


> I don't know. I have an almost 15 year old 13 lb dog and a 7 lb cat. They are both as important to me as my puppy.* If he killed them, I'm not sure that I would be able to say, 'oh well, dogs will be dogs'. Some of the ones saying that seem to be talking about if the dog killed a cat or other furry. What if it was your other dog?? *
> 
> For Varik to kill one of my other pets, he would have had to make a concerted effort to hurt them ... the old dog is kept in the master suite and the cat has a baby gate to keep half the house dog free. The puppy is never out unattended (not trustworthy), and would be confined to a room, door shut, if he ever earns that privilege in the misty future. Fortunately, although motion can set him off, he doesn't chase the cat even when she has the crazies, although he will whimper and be transfixed by the movement.
> 
> *I wouldn't euthanize, but I'm not sure I could keep him either. It would be so traumatic.* Of course, that's why I'm always hypervigilant with the cat (she's the only one he has access to). Even after 18 months, I still take no chances.


:thumbup:


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

I think it all comes down to management. If we chose to have multiple pets, then we need to manage them for everyone's well being. Failure to do so, leaves only the owners at fault, not the dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Ok, so say the dogs have always gotten along, for years they have been the best of friends, then one day, while you are home in another room, your dog kills your other dog, how would you have prevented that? By keeping them apart for their whole lives? By stalking their every move?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> Ok, so say the dogs have always gotten along, for years they have been the best of friends, then one day, while you are home in another room, your dog kills your other dog, how would you have prevented that? By keeping them apart for their whole lives? By stalking their every move?


Have you known this to actually have happened?

SuperG


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Have you known this to actually have happened?
> 
> SuperG


No, I don't know anyone that has had that happen to them.

It could very well happen though.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG


This.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Have you known this to actually have happened?
> 
> SuperG


I think I understand what LaRen was saying... (correct me if I am wrong please) if there were no previous signs of aggression and suddenly one just snaps for whatever reason... how could you predict this occurence? and/or prevent it before the signs were even there? My girls are playmates and buddies right now, no sign of issues in either one or with the cat. If one of them were to attack another how would I ever be able to prevent it without some forewarning?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My2shepherds said:


> I think I understand what LaRen was saying... (correct me if I am wrong please) if there were no previous signs of aggression and suddenly one just snaps for whatever reason... how could you predict this occurence? and/or prevent it before the signs were even there? My girls are playmates and buddies right now, no sign of issues in either one or with the cat. If one of them were to attack another how would I ever be able to prevent it without some forewarning?


Yes! That is what I am trying to say!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> No, I don't know anyone that has had that happen to them.
> 
> It could very well happen though.


I doubt it....not if they have coexisted for all their lives as you suggested in your made up scenario.

However, in the remote chance that this did happen...yes, I would still assume responsibility and have learned a very hard but valuable lesson.

Personally, I take the stewardship of my dog as 100% my responsibility ...hence I have no other option than to be completely culpable for my dog's actions. I just can't see it any other way...but that's just me I guess.

SuperG


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I doubt it....not if they have coexisted for all their lives as you suggested in your made up scenario.
> 
> However, in the remote chance that this did happen...yes, I would still assume responsibility and have learned a very hard but valuable lesson.
> 
> ...


I agree with feeling guilt over ever putting them in the same household, but you could not be held accountable for not seeing the unforseeable. You would have to take a clear look at your own culpability in the incident and only carry the burden for that which you could have prevented and did not. IMO


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

For me I think it would depend on the circumstances honestly. If it was in my control to prevent, I would be upset I let it happen even if it was a freak accident. If it was 100% out of the ordinary I would probably get him medically screened for anything neurological things. 

But I probably would have a hard time seeing him that way regardless, and not sure how I'd act after the fact.. unfortunately..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My2shepherds said:


> I agree with feeling guilt over ever putting them in the same household, but you could not be held accountable for not seeing the unforseeable. You would have to take a clear look at your own culpability in the incident and only carry the burden for that which you could have prevented and did not. IMO


I agree...however many times in hindsight " the unforeseeable" is exposed and becomes somewhat obvious and should have been heeded. I am certain that there are times when stressors come into a multi-dog family which go unnoticed or if they were noticed did not make the human more proactive going forward. I have to assume that certain signals are subtly displayed at times but the human makes no significant notice of the event. For instance, one dog becomes injured due to reasons other than another dog in the multi-dog family. The human disregards this event as a potential trigger for an aggressive event between the dogs. The injured dog is stepped on or aggravated inadvertently by the other dog and it could lead to a bad situation, if this stressor pushes the injured dog over it's normal bite threshold. In hindsight, the human would most likely rewind the tape and say .." I should have known better "...

Understanding your dog's triggers and stressors is paramount in keeping the peace.


SuperG


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I have 4 chickens that are free range in the backyard. Fiona is good with them, but steals their eggs. When she steals eggs, I withhold play with the flirt pole and tell her that we won't play again until the egg turns up. Magically within 24 hours the egg shows up.

If she killed a chicken, I would just get another one or two. "Shrug"


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In that case I would rehome the trouble maker to a home without any other dogs/pets.
I refuse to live in disharmony, just because of a mismatch. It is not fair to the dogs or humans. Even though they maybe safe from attack, there is still stress and anxiety and that influences everything in the house (in my case).
I got a taste of that when I got a foster dog that went into heat and my male dogs started fighting. Never again. After rehoming her (faster than I normally would have), peace returned.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Have you known this to actually have happened?
> 
> SuperG


My dog killed my cat out of the blue, 3.5 years old, having shown ZERO aggression towards them before that. This was the dog - I woke up one night and heard chewing. I called his name and he simply turned his head to look at me but didn't get up off the bed. So I laid back down. Then realized how weird it was that he didn't get up and come to me. So I got up and looked - one of our pet rats had gotten out of her cage, and he didn't get up because she was curled up on his side "rat purring" - they grind their teeth when content and this had been the chewing noise I had heard.

So no, never killed another DOG, but killed another cat out of the blue. And I do like to think I'm pretty behavior savy. As I said, this was an extremely aggressive dog that we had considered euthanizing multiple times. The only thing that ever kept him alive was the fact that he was manageable in the house. If there had of been indications of any kind of aggression towards the cats or other animals, he would of been gone long before that. I don't play that game. I refuse to own animals I have to separate.


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

Heres another scenes. My son has 2 dogs, 1 GSD, Willy, and a small foo foo dog, Sophie. He also has 2 chickens and a rabbit. Chickens and rabbit live in another part of the yard, fences in. My daughter in law failed to latch the gate properly, Willy killed the bunny.
Who's at fault? This happened 2 weeks ago.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

RebGyp said:


> Heres another scenes. My son has 2 dogs, 1 GSD, Willy, and a small foo foo dog, Sophie. He also has 2 chickens and a rabbit. Chickens and rabbit live in another part of the yard, fences in. My daughter in law failed to latch the gate properly, Willy killed the bunny.
> Who's at fault? This happened 2 weeks ago.


Your daughter in law


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> My dog killed my cat out of the blue, 3.5 years old, having shown ZERO aggression towards them before that. This was the dog - I woke up one night and heard chewing. I called his name and he simply turned his head to look at me but didn't get up off the bed. So I laid back down. Then realized how weird it was that he didn't get up and come to me. So I got up and looked - one of our pet rats had gotten out of her cage, and he didn't get up because she was curled up on his side "rat purring" - they grind their teeth when content and this had been the chewing noise I had heard.
> 
> So no, never killed another DOG, but killed another cat out of the blue


I guess I am easily confused...is the rat story meant to be analogous to the lack of aggression your dog exhibits towards other animals ? 

I'm curious....what was the situation when your dog killed your cat? Were you away and just came home to a dead cat? Why do you think this happened? I apologize if my questions bring up a terrible time in the past but perhaps it might help others in the forum.

SuperG


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

RebGyp said:


> Heres another scenes. My son has 2 dogs, 1 GSD, Willy, and a small foo foo dog, Sophie. He also has 2 chickens and a rabbit. Chickens and rabbit live in another part of the yard, fences in. My daughter in law failed to latch the gate properly, Willy killed the bunny.
> Who's at fault? This happened 2 weeks ago.


In my mind this would be an unfortunate incident that resulted out of human error unless the dog had been living peacefully with the bunny then suddenly turned on it I would chalk this up to it just being bad circumstances not a sign of a bad dog, unless it began showing aggression to people or other animals that it had been fine around before this.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

SuperG said:


> I guess I am easily confused...is the rat story meant to be analogous to the lack of aggression your dog exhibits towards other animals ?
> 
> I'm curious....what was the situation when your dog killed your cat? Were you away and just came home to a dead cat? Why do you think this happened? I apologize if my questions bring up a terrible time in the past but perhaps it might help others in the forum.
> 
> SuperG


It shows how this dog behaved around the animals in the house. The rats commonly free roamed and were left completely alone by the dogs. The cats commonly slept with the dogs without incident. I don't feel it's a poor example or confusing one, I feel you may simply be looking for something that wasn't there, a prior indicator.

We came home to a dead cat. No illnesses, no warning signs. Nothing new that day in routine or behavior before leaving the house. we had been gone not even half an hour - it was a quick errand out. After that incident it was like a switch flipped - as I said he went after the other cat multiple times in a month - flipped my mattress clear across the room and chewed a giant hole through trying to get to the cat when it was hiding up in the box spring. He even went after the rats, flipped their cage off the stand, bent the wires all up, thankfully the rats were able to hide under the bookshelf.

3.5 years of zero indication, and then overnight he's a different dog around the other animals.

I think it happened because he had a screw loose, literally. You can't fix broken. Dogs with genetic temperament problems are simply that, broken.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I think it happened because he had a screw loose, literally. *You can't fix broken.* Dogs with genetic temperament problems are simply that, broken.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this.... for extreme cases.

I would never put a dog down that was workable and just needed the proper training and behavior modification to live a life that was safe for it and those around it. If however these methods were not working I would.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

We had a pot bellied pig that lived in peace with 4 Aussies for over 5 years. Then one day, the Aussies changed their minds. 

My sister had a cockatiel that was in her cage in their house. This bird had free range of the house when they were home. They put her up when they were gone. Their mixed breed house dog lived with the bird for years. The bird would walk on the dog. The dog ignored the bird. One day my sister came home from grocery shopping and the dog got onto the couch, jumped on the hanging bird cage, pulled it over, ravaged the cage until the bird was out and ate the bird. The only evidence was a mess of feathers and a mauled cage. 

Stuff happens. Even with your best intentions and with your best laid out plans. Stuff just happens.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

RebGyp said:


> My daughter in law failed to latch the gate properly, .



End of story.....DIL blew it...

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> I don't feel it's a poor example or confusing one, I feel you may simply be looking for something that wasn't there, a prior indicator. *No need for that* *comment...I asked because I was not sure and wanted a bit of clarification....I am not looking for anything except exactly what you intended to say.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



SuperG


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I also agree with the first response. It is my job to keep my pack of animals safe and controlled. I cannot expect to own dogs who are bred for prey drive and aggression to not display what they are bred for. Many gsds, if not raised with cats, are cat killers. Mine are raised with cats. They sleep, groom and share their food with each other. Every one co exists wonderfully. However, whenever I leave a dog loose in my house, I am accepting the fact that things could happen. Maybe a cat gets its nail caught in the rug (which is my fault for not cutting them in time), panics, starts to freak out, dog gets interested, cat freaks out more, prey instinct kicks in and what do you know? My beautiful cat loving dog who has never before displayed any sort of aggression just killed one of my cats out of the blue. They are dogs and will react to instinct. I cannot expect any differently of them. I either set them up for complete success by making sure all animals are together only when supervised, or I do as most of the general population does; assume nothing will ever happen. 
I did have one of my dogs kill a beloved pet rat once. I was devastated and of course mad at my dog for killing my pet but I couldn't blame her. As far as I see it dogs view our small pets much the same as squirrels, rabbits and other wildlife which we seem to be just fine with our dogs wanting to kill.


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

Here's another twist. How many of you good folks play with a flirt pole with your young pups? Isn't that teaching and reinforcing prey drive?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

RebGyp said:


> Here's another twist. How many of you good folks play with a flirt pole with your young pups? Isn't that teaching and reinforcing prey drive?


Your post made me chuckle....for two reasons...one being your point exactly and secondly...it doesn't take much to get a GSD to show it's prey drive with detected motion as you certainly know.

My take away from your appreciated post is....the nature of the beast.

SuperG


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

SuperG said:


> SuperG


Oh no he displayed his genetic problems from day 1 as a pup. Extreme fear aggression towards people. We considered euthanasia first at 6 months old. Never trusted around others. Extremely reactive. Multiple trainers. Even prozac was used. Couldn't be kenneled in the house because he would get severe stress colitis - then he would just sit in his own diarrhea and develop hot spots. He lived a large majority of his life in a basket muzzle. I meant zero indication of aggression towards any other animals in the home.

If he wasn't human aggressive, if he could of been handled by someone other than myself, if he was only animal aggressive, I would of rehomed him.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My2shepherds said:


> I think it happened because he had a screw loose, literally. *You can't fix broken.* Dogs with genetic temperament problems are simply that, broken.


I agree with this.... for extreme cases.

I would never put a dog down that was workable and just needed the proper training and behavior modification to live a life that was safe for it and those around it. If however these methods were not working I would.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. A fearful dog will always be skittish and somewhat fearful. It's simply how they can be trained and managed. If an aggressive dog is managed ok in the home then there is no need for euthanasia. If that dog can no longer be managed in the home, then what other choice is there?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Oh no he displayed his genetic problems from day 1 as a pup. Extreme fear aggression towards people. We considered euthanasia first at 6 months old. Never trusted around others. Extremely reactive. Multiple trainers. Even prozac was used. Couldn't be kenneled in the house because he would get severe stress colitis - then he would just sit in his own diarrhea and develop hot spots. He lived a large majority of his life in a basket muzzle. I meant zero indication of aggression towards any other animals in the home.
> 
> If he wasn't human aggressive, if he could of been handled by someone other than myself, if he was only animal aggressive, I would of rehomed him.



This additional information is greatly appreciated as I was starting to wonder if any dog could go " Cujo" at any given moment....but you have shed light on the overall situation.

This much I can say for certain....how nice and caring of you to go to the lengths you described for your guy...you truly are the type of person to have that dog......many others would not have been as willing.


SuperG


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## Alice13 (Feb 21, 2014)

I would forgive and move on. Beung angry with my girl and holding grudges against her isn't going to help anything. In a way, I am to be blamed for allowing ut to happen in the first place


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> You can't fix broken. Dogs with genetic temperament problems are simply that, broken.


I agree with this. 



Anubis_Star said:


> Dogs ARE dogs. And our breed is full of prey drive. It's the same people who get a pit bull but then flip out when it hates their other dog.
> 
> My trainer and his wife each have male malinois that they do mondio and ipo with. Both intact. These dogs are fine together if they're being worked and controlled. But they will KILL eachother if one somehow gets out where the other one is. These are not bad dogs. And they have a female intact mal, older, both dogs are fine with her. They have a little drop kick neutered male mutt thing, both dogs are fine with all 10 lbs of him. They have 2 cats that the mals leave alone. These are great dogs. That would KILL each other if given the chance.


I don't see how the two Belgian Shepherds are not bad dogs. If they can't coexist because their handler requests it of them, then no, they are not good dogs. There is a reason why dogs are different from wolves, unless the breed was bred to kill dogs like Pit Bulls, dogs were domesticated to serve and live peacefully with man, and whatever animals he keeps. Particularly for a herding breed such as a German Shepherd and Belgian Shepherd, dogs that attack and kill each other is nothing but a liability. Most farmers who need herding dogs to get the job done have more than one and if those dogs cannot work peacefully together then they are useless and a disservice to their handler. Herding breeds particularly should know how to live peacefully with other species of animals. What farmer who owns a herding dog would want their dogs to attack each other and kill his livestock? None. So the excuse that dogs are just dogs, I don't buy that at all. If the German Shepherd and Belgian Shepherd is as smart as everyone says then they should know the difference in what's allowed to be killed and what's not allowed. 

A relative of mine had a German Shepherd, mind you this was somewhat 30 years ago, and that dog would be used to hunt kangaroos and feral goats. He was an excellent hunter, but not only that he only hunted when my relative requested it of him. At home this dog lived peacefully with their pet goats and kangaroos. He knew the difference, and that was a good dog.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Yoshi said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn't dogs killing livestock. These are two intact dominant male dogs kept together. Most people would expect problems. They're kept just fine due to the nature of the business they work with, the nature of their training, their sport work, etc.

How many people on this forum have dog aggressive dogs, especially working lines? Doesn't inherently make them bad dogs. You just need to be realistic and responsible with what you have


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

The first GSD I ever knew was brought into the animal control where I was a kid volunteer, he was to be euthanized. He was a beautiful silvery black dog that was a working farm dog whose job was sheep and dairy cow herding. One night he went on a killing spree with his 2 year old son and killed lambs on his farm and the neighbors. Never ever showed any behavior like that before. Both of them were pts, it wasn't tolerated. The guy that owned them was matter of fact, but sad. Great dog, switch flipped. I, of course being a kid, was horrified. A year earlier I witnessed a retriever kill her 8 pups, she was in a frenzy. It was so bizarre to me. Again, it seemed like the switch just flipped. Who knows why? It just seems to happen with some dogs.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> This isn't dogs killing livestock. These are two intact dominant male dogs kept together. Most people would expect problems. They're kept just fine due to the nature of the business they work with, the nature of their training, their sport work, etc.
> 
> How many people on this forum have dog aggressive dogs, especially working lines? Doesn't inherently make them bad dogs. You just need to be realistic and responsible with what you have


I understand that two dominant intact male dogs can get into disputes with each other but if they are all out trying to kill each other then I wouldn't consider that a good trait for a working dog. If the handler requests it, the dogs should ignore each other. I wouldn't think a dominant male dog that runs around dominating other male dogs and ignoring the handler a good working dog. I know that there are quite a few dog aggressive dogs out there but that's nothing to be proud of, nor should it be dismissed as "the norm". People who work with and rely on their dogs can't afford to have their dog tearing other dogs apart when they have a job to do, unless if that dog's job is to tear apart other dogs.

EDIT: I totally agree that people should try and be responsible with their dogs. If the dog aggression can be managed, then that's fine.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Just curious.....your dog catches, kills and eats a wild rabbit in your yard....is it ok?
> 
> Dog catches, kills and eats neighbours cat in your yard...is it ok?


I don't think either is ok. I try to be responsible and keep everything safe, wild or domesticated. I would be horrified if any of my dogs killed anything in the home or outside, but I wouldn't blame them, I would be at fault. Not the dog or the neighbor, me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So I had typed out this laborious post yesterday on the topic about how pregnant females might kill a cat or other critter, especially an outdoor cat, and it may be some type of seek and destroy mission that the hormones give her at that time to prepare for the safety of her pups -- anything that might be a threat has to go. 

And, of course, intact females _might_ decide they hate each other. Bitches fight for breathing rights, and all that. 

Other than that GSDs can learn to live with other critters, etc.

And then I just backed out of the post, as it really didn't need to be said. 

Then I went home. 

Babs was barfy so I had put her in the outdoor kennel after cleaning up the bathroom, my bed, and the study yesterday morning, so I took Heidi with me, and decided to get her groomed while I went to work for a few hours. Jenna had something going on and was at the vet the day before, and I had her in the in/out so I could give her meds. Moofie was in the other in/out, and Heidi was so clean and good smelling, I thought I would just keep her in for the night. 

The worst thing, is I noticed her tail go up as she sniffed through the baby gate at Jenna. 

When I went down there to give Jenna her meds, she slipped through the baby gate with me and attacked. 

I got her back through the gate, but their jaws were locked onto each other, and it was like a blood bath in there. Given the opportunity, one would have killed the other last night. Jenna is my alpha bitch. But being under the weather, and nine years old, Heidi thought it was a good time to overthrow the queen. 

The thing is, Jenna rarely fights or snarls or anything with anyone. But if someone does start something with her, which has happened once or twice, she finishes it. She carries herself as an alpha, and everyone just accepts it. Heidi got the worst of it. Her face is all swelled up. I'm giving her cephalexin. 

This isn't dog aggression -- Heidi was at the groomers with scads of dogs yesterday, and Jenna has no problems with outside dogs. This is same-sex inter-pack aggression, and those of us who want to keep multiples of the same sex, intact, have to manage them. And if we slip up in that, as I did yesterday, then we really cannot blame, punish, or kill the dog. 

Well, we can.

If the dog has an issue, and is no longer useful to us. And we want to free up space or time for youngsters that we care more about, that we might have a use for. But then, we should call it like it is, the bitch is old, or has XYZ condition, can't use her for breeding, can't work, time to go see the vet. Killing a dog or bitch because we cannot manage some of the very traits that we want to see in them, is pretty low.

That is mostly for people choosing to keep intact dogs for work or breeding. Pet owners should really think long and hard when they want to bring in another dog that is the same sex. They need to know the general disposition of the dog they have, and maybe put a number of years between them. If their current bitch is an strong (dominant to other dogs) 8 year old female, and they have a four year old male, they might be ok getting another young female, If she is happy to be a follower, all can go superbly. But they need to be prepared with a plan in case it doesn't work out when the youngster reaches sexual maturity. Playing musical crates or kennels forever isn't what most pet owners want to deal with. And, rehoming one of them may be best for everyone involved including the critters. 

So how do I feel toward the bitches I had for 8 and 9 years that just tried to kill each other? I love them. I feel sorry that I didn't prevent what happened. I know exactly how bad it looks and feels when a dog you love is trying to kill another dog you love. I think that if we anthropomorphize them, we can feel hurt, and angry, and may want to put one of them down. When we see them as another species, whose instincts and drives and characters are only partly understood by us, we are more likely to feel disgusted and angry with ourselves, and feel bad that our dog now is in pain, is going to have some scars, needs to take meds or have their face shaved.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> So I had typed out this laborious post yesterday on the topic about how pregnant females might kill a cat or other critter, especially an outdoor cat, and it may be some type of seek and destroy mission that the hormones give her at that time to prepare for the safety of her pups -- anything that might be a threat has to go.
> 
> And, of course, intact females _might_ decide they hate each other. Bitches fight for breathing rights, and all that.
> 
> ...


The other day when I came home from lunch Robyn (3 yr old GSD) decided to challenge Misty(10 yr old Samoyed). Before I knew it they were in a fight, not a bad fight but an unexpected one. I don't even think they got to touch each other because I grabbed both of them. Misty kept trying to get at Robyn for a minute. I was real hesitant about leaving them alone together and I watched them for the next 20 minutes. Robyn approached Misty and kissed her, Misty was ok with that. After work Midnite was bothering Misty and she went for him, he ran as fast as he could to get away. Later on Misty threw up, so I knew she wasn't feeling well, her outbursts were completely abnormal. All we can do as owners is pay attention to them and watch their behavior. We rarely have any disagreements here, but they can happen. I have no problem breaking up a fight and I'm always ready for that. With a large group you have to be. Today Misty and Robyn are playing and hanging out together like nothing ever happened. I'll have to watch those two, Misty let's Robyn take charge most of the time these days but Misty hasn't given up total control and it's almost like she us training Robyn.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

My other post disappeared or my eyes are blinded to it. I have 4 chickens that free range in the backyard. I trust Fiona with them. She does steal their eggs. If she killed a chicken, I would buy another one or two. "Shrug".

She has a prey drive that we use with the flirt pole. I hope that is enough to satisfy her drive.

However, like Sue said, two bitches wake up one day hating each other. I have Fiona and my mother has Gilda. Fiona and Gilda were born together. They loved each other and played with each other until one day, Gilda decided she wanted to kill her sister. We have had a few fights with blood and Gilda needing surgery. 

But if one of them killed the other (if given the chance they would) I would be angry at myself or my mom. They only fight when one of us is lax and does not keep the dog under leash control. We have them separated by a baby gate and keeping them out of sight of one another with the kitchen as the buffer between the two. The breeder told me this would happen, because they will both fight for alpha. I chose to take the risk, so totally my fault.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Cheyanna said:


> The breeder told me this would happen, because they will both fight for alpha. I chose to take the risk, so totally my fault.


If this is both pups' breeder and you and your mom live in the same house, he was willing to let one of his pups be injured or killed by another one of his puppies.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

SuperG said:


> I would be incredibly pissed off at myself for ever allowing it to happen.
> 
> SuperG


Ditto


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> If this is both pups' breeder and you and your mom live in the same house, he was willing to let one of his pups be injured or killed by another one of his puppies.



I lived in Ca and she lived in Texas at the time we got them. Had no idea at the time that she would be living with me a year later.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I had a wolf/malamute hybrid as a kid. She was 130 lbs post litter when we got her and not overweight. Great dog, i was 7-12 years old and she never got aggressive with me or anything. She ate our parakeet, tore the cage off the cieling and the room was full of feathers. She ate my guinea pig, tore the top of the cage off, RIP Porky. Then she half ate the neighbors yappy dog. RIP Cinnamon, they told me they sent her to a farm...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My buddy had 2 malamutes ...giant fricking dogs...He lived in the country/woods. They would come back with a deer leg on occasion...never knew if they ran it down or just found a dead one.

But...those dogs had some prey drive. I remember one of them coming back with a mouthful of porcupine quills...really wicked...deep back in it's mouth. We tended to the dog and then found the dead porcupine...blew me away that the dog didn't stop while he was behind.....strong ...very strong urge/drive I guess.

SuperG


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

At our park we have a 7y/o unaltered malamute, 110 pounds, it's a beast, it smells another boy dog from 2 miles away and it's go time for that dog. It's beautiful, but it's unruly. They keep a gps collar on it because it has broken the metal off of leashes, I didn't believe it until i saw it happen. It will fight it's prong without flinching.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Yoshi said:


> I understand that two dominant intact male dogs can get into disputes with each other but if they are all out trying to kill each other then I wouldn't consider that a good trait for a working dog. If the handler requests it, the dogs should ignore each other. I wouldn't think a dominant male dog that runs around dominating other male dogs and ignoring the handler a good working dog. I know that there are quite a few dog aggressive dogs out there but that's nothing to be proud of, nor should it be dismissed as "the norm". People who work with and rely on their dogs can't afford to have their dog tearing other dogs apart when they have a job to do, unless if that dog's job is to tear apart other dogs.
> 
> EDIT: I totally agree that people should try and be responsible with their dogs. If the dog aggression can be managed, then that's fine.


I don't think I ever said they ignore the handlers, did I? Infact, I think I did specifically say they work together constantly with the handlers, side by side, no problem. Several times. "These dogs work fine together". Theyre worked out on the field numerous times a week with multiple other dogs, just fine. If seen them in downs in the yard next to eachother, just fine. However they could never be alone together. BIG difference. 

Obviously you are not fully reading my posts, or simply reading the parts you want to see


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> So I had typed out this laborious post yesterday on the topic about how pregnant females might kill a cat or other critter, especially an outdoor cat, and it may be some type of seek and destroy mission that the hormones give her at that time to prepare for the safety of her pups -- anything that might be a threat has to go.
> 
> And, of course, intact females _might_ decide they hate each other. Bitches fight for breathing rights, and all that.
> 
> ...


This is beautiful. And I was just thinking of this before posting again about the two mals my trainers own. You're exactly right. They're not dog aggressive. They have no issues with other the majority of other dogs. One of them simply hates other intact males, and the other one simply hates the intact male he lives with.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> I don't think I ever said they ignore the handlers, did I? Infact, I think I did specifically say they work together constantly with the handlers, side by side, no problem. Several times. "These dogs work fine together". Theyre worked out on the field numerous times a week with multiple other dogs, just fine. If seen them in downs in the yard next to eachother, just fine. However they could never be alone together. BIG difference.
> 
> Obviously you are not fully reading my posts, or simply reading the parts you want to see


*I wouldn't think a dominant male dog that runs around dominating other male dogs and ignoring the handler a good working dog.*

I intended this as a general statement. I never said that the two Belgian Shepherds Anubis Star mentioned were ignoring their handlers. I apologize that I did not make my wording clear.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

So, while I really believe that it depends on the situation, I also believe that the killing of an animal should never be down played per say.

We have a GSD in the shelter, young, spunky, bi color.....she has a history of killing chickens. Now, she is a sweet dog, but you can tell that she needs lots of training and she has lots of drive.

On a different group that sponsors shelter animals and all that, they put up her picture. They were honest, saying that she kills chickens. I posted that I met her, she was very sweet but lots of drive and with her history of killing chickens, other small animals in the home might want to be a no go.

Now, many of us here, myself included, could take her (if I already had my house I would consider it) and probably train her and manage her even if we did have small pets in the house, but, this is the county ran shelter where its first come first serve.

Would my advice of people will smaller animals being aware and possibly reconsidering her be unreasonable? Well, you'd think it would from some of the comments. "My dog has killed chickens but gets along great with my cats." Ok, thats great..thats YOUR dog. Someone even suggested that she was probably just trying to "herd" the chickens, and she'll be fine. Ok, first, around here, any farm animal that gets killed, especially by what is suppose to be a working farm animal, is going to end up killed.

My worry, is that her killing of chickens isn't going to be taken seriously and she's just going to wind up back at the shelter, or killed.

Seriously, is it to much to ask for people to not sugar coat things? It might get her out of the shelter, but at what cost? ugh.

Sorry, I had to rant.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I had a problem that was entirely out of my hands. I've never owned a dog that has killed one of my pets but ...

When I moved here I didn't know that my next door neighbor allowed *his* chickens to roam around in *my* yard (it's fenced in on all four sides). Niki started killing the trespassing chickens he found in our yard ... I complained and complained and complained to my neighbor, asking/begging him to PLEASE KEEP HIS CHICKENS IN HIS YARD!!! This fell on deaf ears. Finally I spent a fair amount of money and had a 2nd fence built about 4 or 5' inside the outer fence (three sides only, the street side fence is only single. This didn't help much and the chickens just went over the 2nd fence too. When I got Mac he also killed the trespassing chickens ... I'd guess during a period of over 15 years, the two of them killed about 200 trespassing chickens ... and it wasn't a quick easy death for the poor critters.

BUT when I got two little carnies I put Niki the chicken killer in charge of them. Every time another Hooligan either touched the cage or nosed open the cage door to steal a bird treat, Niki got scolded. He helped me clean their cage, put them to bed at night, etc. Every interaction I had with the little birds, Niki was with me. He learned quickly that the canaries were HIS responsibility and he started ensuring their safety from the other dogs.

One day I accidently let Boris, the male, out ... the bewildered little bird flew all over the house, landing here and there, then taking off again. Finally he landed on top of Niki's head and stayed there. My chicken killing dog FROZE until I could get Boris off his head and return him to their cage.

Sadly, when Niki got quite ill from osteosarcoma, I had to place the canaries in another home because I was spending so much time tending to his needs that I was neglecting the birds, only feeding them and giving them water, cleaning their cage, nothing else.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

GSDolch said:


> So, while I really believe that it depends on the situation, I also believe that the killing of an animal should never be down played per say.
> 
> We have a GSD in the shelter, young, spunky, bi color.....she has a history of killing chickens. Now, she is a sweet dog, but you can tell that she needs lots of training and she has lots of drive.
> 
> ...


Yes! People love their sugar coating. We had a dog come into our SPCA back when I was in high school. Her crime was also killing chickens (and who wouldn't, they're tasty). Her kennel card specifically said that she killed chickens.

Someone came in, read it, adopted her. Yay, right? Nope. She was back two days later and the guy was ticked off because she killed his turkeys. The stupidity of some people is astounding. Take a dog that you just adopted and really the only thing you know about is that it kills birds, and turn her loose with your birds. Yep, double digit IQ right there.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

My GSD, Mace, coexists with my cat and my mothers little pom/chi, Koko. They all pretty much grew up together. Mace and Koko were obtained within a month of each other as pups and Onyx came a couple months later (there was a BOGO sale at the humane society on cats ). Koko in recent years has begun to despise Mace and likes to try to control his movements and does NOT allow Mace near Onyx if we allow his bratty behavior. I do my best to put an end to any of his bullying immediately as I never want my dog to take it upon himself to correct that behavior as there is about an 80lb size difference. They are never left together unsupervised for just that reason. Accidents happen and even in play Mace can seriously injure or kill Koko with no malice or intention to do so. Also, my mother is in a wheelchair so the time Koko and Mace spend together when its just my mom at home is SEVERELY limited (I can count on my fingers how many times thats happened). Its a preventive measure and probably completely unecessary but it only takes one second and if Mace hurt or God forbid killed Koko I dont know if I'd be able to forgive him. Koko is my moms dog, yes, but that little dog holds such a special place in my heart. IDK how to describe it but we call him pinnochio cause he wants to be a "real boy" so bad! When you look into those eyes you can almost see a human soul! Such intelligence and wisdom lurk in the windows of his soul! :wub::wub:

Now, over the course of Mace's nearly 7 years of life there have been times where I had to leave him with my grandmother at her house for 2-4 months at a time due to personal health reasons. I leave her with instructions and preventive measures to keep my dog as well as her 3 dogs safe but she rarely listens, grandma ALWAYS knows best. Really, you cant tell her anything!  So, she allows her evil chi/terrier thing (7lbs MAX) to attack my dog for no reason. He will hang off my dogs lip. Now, when I am present I protect my dog from that bullying obnoxious behavior because like I said I never want him to feel as though he has to take it upon himself to defend himself, I want him to know I will always defend him, he doesnt have too. But when I'm not there, there is nothing I can do. Apparently, one day when I was away he had enough and bit grandma's little dog back (I personally believe he had no intention to hurt this dog. He was issuing a well deserved correction but since the dog was so small it caused more damage that intended. There was no blood, no puncture wounds nothing and he could have bit this dog in half easily if his intention was to cause harm to this dog but it was not). He stopped breathing and had to be rushed to Emergency Vet. IDK what caused that reaction but he could have died. Luckily everyone is well. But I do NOT blame my dog. I know my dog and he is VERY tolerant so if he was pushed to that extreme it was because there was no human intervention and this behavior went on for a long time until he had enough.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yoshi said:


> *I wouldn't think a dominant male dog that runs around dominating other male dogs and ignoring the handler a good working dog.*
> .


That has no impact on the dogs working ability. A dominant strong male is not for everyone nor do most people understand how to handle this type of dog. However, this is the type of dog many experienced handlers prefer for good reason.

All dogs are predators. They have the drive to varying degrees to catch, rend and consume prey. They are not stuffed animals come to life. If folks have issues getting that through their heads I suggest a stuffed dog from your local Toys R Us.

The only thing I wont tolerate is aggression towards children.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That has no impact on the dogs working ability. *A dominant strong male is not for everyone nor do most people understand how to handle this type of dog. However, this is the type of dog many experienced handlers prefer for good reason.*
> 
> All dogs are predators. They have the drive to varying degrees to catch, rend and consume prey. They are not stuffed animals come to life. If folks have issues getting that through their heads I suggest a stuffed dog from your local Toys R Us.
> 
> The only thing I wont tolerate is aggression towards children.


How do you handle this kind of dog and why do they prefer it? Why would they want a dog that make it its business to dominate other dogs? 

German Shepherds are meant to be the ultimate utilitarian working dog. They are meant to fit in a range of working avenues. This can include but is not limited to shepherding, family protection companion, obedience, agility, Schutzhund and or other sporting activities, therapy, police service etc. 

A farmer who would want a shepherding dog would certainly _not_ want a dog that is going to have over the top prey drive and would want to kill any type of prey animal willy nilly, unless of course if the farmer requests it of the dog. Excusing a working farm dog for killing sheep and chooks as just "it's a dog thing" is purely ridiculous. The German Shepherd's first purpose was to be a shepherding and family protection dog and as such they should live peacefully with the other farm animals, once taught and shown what is expected of them. Also, most farmers who rely on shepherding dogs have more than one dog so if the dogs are too busy dominating each other to do their work then they are useless. We knew someone who had three sheep dogs and the female was a very dominant dog, and she was also a great sheep dog. But in the end she was shot. Why? Because while herding she would attack the other dogs, trying to dominate them and this disrupted the flow of work. Serious farmers don't have time nor do they want to waste resources on a dog that does not earn its keep. And yes, every dog is certainly a predator and it is their nature to want to kill small fast prey animals but because dogs were domesticated to serve man, and depending on the breed, then they should learn what is OK to chase and kill and what is not. Equally, it is also the handler's duty to demonstrate to the dog what is expected of them, as it is silly to expect all dogs to simply know what they are meant to be doing "off the bat". 

I also don't see how a dominant dog that loves to chase and kill animals can serve well in the police force. What if a police K9 handler and his dog were out doing their work, perhaps tracking a criminal through a civilian street and then the dog who's just being a dog, sees a rabbit run out of the bush and the dog pursues and kills it, losing the trail, or what if while out working the dog comes across a civilian's pet dog and the dominant police dog decides he needs to prove his dominance to the other and gets into a fight with it, injuring, or worse, killing the civilian's dog? That's not good media coverage for the police at all.

And of course, no one likes a dog that attacks children, and yet no one attains it to a "dog just being a dog". Why not? Children a small, fast moving, and make high pitched noises - just like prey animals! So would it not be normal for a dog with high prey drive to want to chase and maybe harm a child? :shrug: 

My point is, yes, all dogs are predators and it is in their nature to chase and kill things, and yes, some dogs will want to prove they are the more dominant to others of their species, but if these behaviors can't be controlled or redirected, especially while living at home with the family, or out working, then as far as I am concerned the dog is not worth feeding. Dogs were domesticated to serve man. How they serve man depends on their breed. Shepherd dogs that kill animals willy nilly and disrupt working/family life to dominate other dogs are not shepherd dogs.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I have to say I do agree with Yoshi on a lot of points. When speaking from a farm living perspective, there is such a thing as *to much*. I understand how people with sport dogs may want a dog at the extreme, if it can be managed and worked with, more power to them, I wish them well.

But in farm life, a dog that has so much prey drive that it wants to kill the live stock or focus on dominating the other dogs is useless.

Spare me the "its how GSDs are" because technically it's not suppose to be. They are *suppose* to be a well rounded dog that can go from one task to the next. There has been a butt load of specialized breeding over the years within the GSDs, but, I feel that is a topic for another section of the board and maybe another time.

Regardless, the fact is, anyone who grew up in farm life, or is in farm life, cannot and will not have a dog that has so much prey drive that it will effect the livelihood of the farmer.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

rabbit and chickens we feed to dogs every day, i would not let them interact, cats are another story a lot of gsds and cats can get along, but animals we feed our gsd? Id keep far away from. I have also caught my gsd stealing live prey from my cats and swallowing them whole like rodents. So its clear rodents are something to eat. Mine may kill someone elses cat but that would be territory or defense because that other cat is invading her turf. ALso other cats might come and fight with my cat which she considers her "pack" Same could go for any species. Mine does not like deer that much.


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