# Pls. help - i may have to put my dog down



## cpeacott (Dec 29, 2011)

I am so heartbroken. My GS has bitten my husband badly and this is not the first time he has bitten. My vet feels the dog is a control biter and in her opinion, not much can be done. Do I have any other options? Are there places for dogs that bite where they can still have a productive life? Are there medicines that won't totally debilitate him.

Pls. help with suggestions, I'm not looking for sympathy just a miracle that I may have another option


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I think more info would be needed before people could even pretend to have any answers. Not familiar with "control" biting...is that resource guarding, fear........Info such as situations that preceeded bites. How the relationship with husband/dog usually is. Age of dog, dogs training, etc Sorry to answer your questions with questions.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Other than a police department, I wouldn't pass a biter on to another victim. A friend of mine is a vet, who likes to adopt rescues. She tried working with one of her dogs for 2 years before putting it down. It bit numerous people and also other dogs. I think she tried more than anybody else would have in that case. I know a dog breeder who put down an excellent show prospect for biting/snapping at people. (I even wanted one of her future puppies.) I think you know best what your dog is like, and you will have to decide.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

How many people has he bitten and why was he allowed to bite again after the first time?

You can contact a qualified trainer/behaviorist that has experience with aggressive dogs and manage him for the rest of his life so that he never has the opportunity to bite again or you can put him down. Neither option will be easy.

The kind of help you need cannot be obtained on the internet unless it's a recommendation for a trainer.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

mysweetkaos said:


> I think more info would be needed before people could even pretend to have any answers. Not familiar with "control" biting...is that resource guarding, fear........Info such as situations that preceeded bites. How the relationship with husband/dog usually is. Age of dog, dogs training, etc Sorry to answer your questions with questions.


I agree. Also agree with Jamie. The only good advice from the internet is to direct you to a qualified professional who can deal with it in person.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think more info is needed, and I agree with Nancy's advice.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't know of any police departments who will take uncontrolled biters to train. They have as much or more responsibility to the public than the average person, they don't want a biting dog anymore than anyone else.
How badly was he bitten? Was this the first time? Are you AFRAID of your dog?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I would recommend consulting a trained animal behaviorist.

Here are some resources:

How To Find The Best Dog Trainer For Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article

International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)

Animal Behavior Society Web Site

ACVB

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - AVSAB - Find An AVSAB Veterinarian


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Tell us the circumstance under which he has bitten. Many biters have become non-biters after dedicated training and behavior modification.


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## cpeacott (Dec 29, 2011)

GregK said:


> Tell us the circumstance under which he has bitten. Many biters have become non-biters after dedicated training and behavior modification.


My husband was bitten with really no provacation. he was half sleeping on the couch. the dog jumped up for patting which he does often and my husband patted him and then the dog went behind the sofa and started growling and my husband dropped a hand behind him and the dog attacked We have had the dog for 4 yrs. We are the third owners and we estimate he is about 6. He has bitten me twice really unprovoked and bitten two other people. Usaully he is very affectionate.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

you definately need professional help, someone that will come in and evaluate the dog. 

Tho 'we' see them as unprovoked, only the dog knows the reason. IF he's that much of a ticking time bomb, you need to be VERY VERY diligent in monitoring this dog.

He's bitten now, what 5-6 times, unprovoked? Somethings' not right, and he could be a huge liability. Get pro help asap. No one will take a dog with his bite history.


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## cpeacott (Dec 29, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> I would recommend consulting a trained animal behaviorist.
> 
> Here are some resources:
> 
> ...


 Thanks for your resources!!


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## cpeacott (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks to all who have replied. i will contact some trainers but it might me too late as he is over 6 yrs. old. It is so sad and I love the dog so much but I can't take risks that he will hurt again.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

you can always teach an old dog new tricks, I think with a good behaviorist you may be able to figure out what sets him off, and work it..good luck to you


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## cpeacott (Dec 29, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> you can always teach an old dog new tricks, I think with a good behaviorist you may be able to figure out what sets him off, and work it..good luck to you


 
You know what thanks for your kindness. It has meant alot to me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no problem,,obviously this is something to take very seriously especially if you have kids around, but if you can get some pro help, they may be able to help you manage and understand what's going on better.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

You definitely need to do something and NOW. Depending on how attached I was to the dog, I'd take him for evaluation by a professional who deals with this type of thing first, and if it is not resolved I'd have the dog put down. There simply is not any other choices. A dog that bites for no obvious reason is dangerous. A behaviorist may or may not be able to figure out what is going on. Worth a try first to find out. Otherwise, there are some dogs, like people, that just aren't right in the head.

The police and military certainly do not want unstable dogs. It's my belief that an active working dog should be *all that more* stable before put in the line of duty.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

cpeacott, I don't have any better advice than has already been offered. Just want to say how sorry I am that you are going through this. You obviously love your dog. I wish you all the best.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How bad were those bites? All of them. And how many people do have to be bit before something is done about it? 

Is he muzzled in the public? If so, that's the first thing I'd do. Then I'd get a crate and crate that dog 24/7. He'd be stripped off of any and all food and boy, I'd make him work very hard for it. If he's done working, he goes back into the crate. 

No more Freedom for a dog that has bitten four people and PTS would be the next step! If he'd have anymore episodes that'd be it.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

cpeacott said:


> My husband was bitten with really no provacation. he was half sleeping on the couch. the dog jumped up for patting which he does often and my husband patted him and then the dog went behind the sofa and started growling and my husband dropped a hand behind him and the dog attacked


 
This is strange. 

What do you mean by 'attack'? I don't consider a bite an attack. Several bites would be an attack.

What were the circumstances with your 2 bites and the other 2 people's bites?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

there's a difference between a trainer and a behaviorist, i think he needs a behaviorist first. also make absolutely sure there is nothing physiologically wrong (petit mal seizures, rage syndrome, thyroid issues, etc.), he needs a total, thorough physical work-up. as others have said, this is a very difficult issue to address over the internet and all each of us can do is give our opinion, based on the facts we have. as i know you know, having a dog who bites is a huge liability. my personal opinion is that, no matter how much i loved him, i could not have a dog that i could not trust to not bite me. i have a dog that i cannot totally trust with others, and i diligently and completely manage his environment (and i have no kids). he has never once in eight years so much as raised a lip to me. had he ever...well, that would not be acceptable to me.

i wish you peace of mind with whatever decision you make.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"badly bitten" , sorrry, is an attack.

While the dog is still with the OP the dog should be confined to a safe kennel in the yard so he can't run off down the street in pursuit, crate in the house, not socializing with visitors --- and an unpredictable dog around unpredictable kids is a recipe for disaster.

You know the dogs past history and current events which puts a further legal obligation on you. 

I am not saying this to scare you, but to spare you from further grief . 

Who knows why the dog is the way he is. 
The vet knows the dog she probably is a good starting point to discuss realistic options. 


sorry that you have this predicament.


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## DressageGuy4225 (Mar 14, 2010)

So, 6 biting incidents total now? Sorry, that's 3 more chances than I would have allowed. First time, ok, let's try and figure out what's going on. Second time, eh, you're on a wicked short leash. Third time? Immediately to vet to be PTS. Sorry, this dog has had way too many chances, and at some point is going to seriously injure someone.

And this is coming from someone who just had to put down one of their dogs on the 23rd because she attacked one of our other dogs. Completely unprovoked. She jumped him coming out the front door and tried her damndest to kill him. She got put down that afternoon. She had a bit of a history of dog aggression, and that was her last shot.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

DressageGuy4225 said:


> So, 6 biting incidents total now? Sorry, that's 3 more chances than I would have allowed. First time, ok, let's try and figure out what's going on. Second time, eh, you're on a wicked short leash. Third time? Immediately to vet to be PTS. Sorry, this dog has had way too many chances, and at some point is going to seriously injure someone.
> 
> And this is coming from someone who just had to put down one of their dogs on the 23rd because she attacked one of our other dogs. Completely unprovoked. She jumped him coming out the front door and tried her damndest to kill him. She got put down that afternoon. She had a bit of a history of dog aggression, and that was her last shot.


I agree completely with this statement and I would encourage you to, yes, consult with a behaviorist and/or trainer but at the same time, recognize the true danger your dog poses. Which it sounds like you do. 

I have a cattle dog that has already bitten one guy and has offered to bite one other and I have already decided in my head that if she bites another person unprovoked, she is getting PTS. I simply can't take that risk. She is micro-managed by me and no one but me. If she is not with me, on a leash, by my side, she is crated. This means a lot of my life is devoted to her but it's worth the sacrifice to me. This may not be the case for everyone and I strongly believe that if you are going to sacrifice too much or there are children involved, this is NOT a project/responsibility to assume. Don't feel guilty or beat yourself up because at the end of the day, if you've done everything that you yourself can do, the human safety (especially children) must come first. 

Good luck and I wish you and your family the best during this hard situation


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Also, you'll be judged either way and will judge yourself on top of that. With dogs like that you are damned if you do PTS and damned if you don't. Ultimately it is your decision and you have to live with whichever decision you make as well as the consequences if something else happens and somebody presses charges.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

cpeacott said:


> My husband was bitten with really no provacation. he was half sleeping on the couch. the dog jumped up for patting which he does often and my husband patted him and then the dog went behind the sofa and started growling and my husband dropped a hand behind him and the dog attacked We have had the dog for 4 yrs. We are the third owners and we estimate he is about 6. He has bitten me twice really unprovoked and bitten two other people. Usaully he is very affectionate.


So you've had the dog four years and in that time, he's bitten you twice, two *other* people and now your husband? So five bites? What did you do after bite #1, bite #2... ? 

Can you isolate why the bite(s) happened? Were all the bites totally random and out of the blue?

You need help, professional help, and you need it yesterday. You're lucky the two "other" people he bit didn't come back on you. 

The full medical checkup should be a top priority, too.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh sounding, but why have you allowed this dog to bite so many people without getting some professional help? 

I think you have two choices: immediate professional help or pts. Even with professional help, you have very high management responsibilities. You simply cannot allow this dog to bite even one more human.


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## DressageGuy4225 (Mar 14, 2010)

chelle said:


> So you've had the dog four years and in that time, he's bitten you twice, two *other* people and now your husband? So five bites? What did you do after bite #1, bite #2... ?
> 
> Can you isolate why the bite(s) happened? Were all the bites totally random and out of the blue?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the time for professional help has come and gone. Six (supposedly unprovoked) bites on at least 3 people? Sorry, dog needs to head to the Bridge. 

This dog is a law suit waiting to happen. You can and will be held liable if it injures someone who's not your husband or yourself. Especially since you know about its history and have posted that history on the internet. Put the dog down and move on. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm a pragmatic person.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

DressageGuy4225 said:


> Sorry, but the time for professional help has come and gone.
> 
> Put the dog down and move on. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm a pragmatic person.


Both wrong.

Bad advise to give over the internet. Let the professional that sees the dog in person advise the owner on what action to take.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

So can you tell a bit more about the actual damage caused by the bites. I'm posting Dr. Ian Dunbar's Bite Scale. 

Level 1- Dog growls, lunges, snarls-no teeth touch skin. Mostly intimidation behavior.

Level 2- Teeth touch skin but no puncture. May have red mark/minor bruise from dog’s head or snout, may have minor scratches from paws/nails. Minor surface abrasions acceptable.

Level 3- Punctures ½ the length of a canine tooth, one to four holes, single bite. No tearing or slashes. Victim not shaken side to side. Bruising.

Level 4- One to four holes from a single bite, one hole deeper than ½ the length of a canine tooth, typically contact/punctures from more than canines only. Black bruising, tears and/or slashing wounds. Dog clamped down and shook or slashed victim.

Level 5- Multiple bites at Level 4 or above. A concerted, repeated attack.

Level 6- Any bite resulting in death of a human.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GregK said:


> Both wrong.
> 
> Bad advise to give over the internet. Let the professional that sees the dog in person advise the owner on what action to take.


Depending on how severe these bites were, that's exactly what I'd do. 

Two people, husband and herself? And with her husband it was the second time? 

If that dog didn't give any warning signs at all and it was really out of the blue like she described and as bad as it sounds... don't waste your money and time on a behaviorist. Go to the vet and put that dog down. 

If it happens again and the next time it's a child or teenager (just like what at the farmers market in Watertown happened) all **** will break loose. That dog sounds like a loose canon. And as harsh as it sounds, she's lucky that those other two people didn't press charges. He's already got a history and it's public knowledge now. That alone will deem and label him as a dangerously aggressive dog. She KNOWS whats going on with the dog. If anything happens again, it's her neck that's in the sling and will be broken. The dog will be destroyed, she'll be put through the wringer and financially ruined, not speaking of the charges and possible dog bans that could be put into place due to an incident. 

If a Shepherd has bitten four people and bites a fifth one... that'll go through the press. Possibly not only nationally but INTERNATIONALLY. Stuff like that makes it's way to Europe and the internet makes it really easy. The dog world already is in the spot light and it doesn't need anymore incidents. Especially not from a dog that is KNOWINGLY dangerous! 

​


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> How many people has he bitten and why was he allowed to bite again after the first time?
> 
> You can contact a qualified trainer/behaviorist that has experience with aggressive dogs and manage him for the rest of his life so that he never has the opportunity to bite again or you can put him down. Neither option will be easy.
> 
> The kind of help you need cannot be obtained on the internet unless it's a recommendation for a trainer.


Yup. I agree. Saying you dog bites is not telling us any thing really. Why did he bite? Was he ever abused? What type of training does he have? How old is he? What's the health of this dog like? Age? What happen leading up to the bite? So many question need to be answered. No one can not tell you what's best for your dog over the internet with out knowing the case. If only it was that easy. 

When I was young I tried to rescue a pit bull. Sweetest dog I ever met. He wanted nothing more then to be loved. Only problem was his extream dog aggression. I am pretty sure he was a pit dog used to fight. Any way I had to put him down because his problems were much deeper then I or any basic trainer could deal with. He needed extreme rehab. 

Deciding to put an animal down is never easy.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

in the end, this is the 'net', it's easy to say behaviorist, put the dog down..

To be honest, I dont have enough info to make a solid decision, but I can tell you this, one of MY dogs ever downright 'attacked' me, he'd be in some big doo doo. You (dog) do not bite/attack your human.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

gsdraven said:


> The kind of help you need cannot be obtained on the internet unless it's a recommendation for a trainer.


 
:thumbup:


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Find a reputable trainer to work with your family and your dog.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

GregK said:


> :thumbup:


 :thumbup:

A lot of good (and some bad) advice here. 

Bottom line is you need help quickly. 

Wishing you the best.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are going through this. 

You have options, and really, only someone who can see and work with the dog can help you decide what is best in this situation. 

But let's examine some of the options anyway so we are not kidding ourselves. Forget whatever you have seen on TV. There is no magical cure, set of commands, training that will fix your dog in sixty minutes. If the cause of the uncontrolled aggression is due to environment/leadership, then it will take commitment and willingness to try new methods of managing the dog, and time, months and more likely over a year.

Physiological aggressive behavior, while not unheard of is not that common. Some problems like low thyroid can be helped with drugs. Others, like rage syndrome pretty much have a bleak output. Genetically weak nerves might be improved/managed to the point where the owner is trained to manage the environment well enough to eliminate or reduce episodes.

In either case, you will need to be realistic about to what extent improvement will be. Will your dog ever be SAFE? This is a good question to ask a behaviorist before embarking on the journey. 

Maybe think of this like an illness, bone cancer, ruptured disk, hemangiosarcoma -- yeah it IS serious. You have to decide what you want to put yourself and the dog through in order to procure a cure, you need to be honest/realistic about the prognosis and your ability to meet the requirements. What are the chances that if I drop, say $2000 and a year of our lives into this, the dog will have a good recovery and give us many more good years. It is not all about the money. For many of us, if someone would promise to fix the dog, we would pay 2k or 10k. But you can also drop 2-10k into training and management and be no farther along a year from now, either because the behaviorist was not good, or because the dog's problems were not workable.

I know I am painting a bleak picture, and I am NOT saying to euthanize the dog. Only someone who knows the whole of the situation and has seen the dog can make such a decision. Only you know how much you care for this dog. I am just throwing out this for thought. Euthanizing is NOT the worse thing you can do to the dog. Euthanasia is the one choice that you cannot turn back and try something else, so we think of it as a last resort. It IS always the last resort because after it, you cannot try anything else, obviously. But it is a far better choice than dropping the dog out along a roadside or taking the dog to a shelter. Taking the dog to your vet, they administer a drug that puts the dog to sleep, you are right there, the dog falls to sleep, and then the drug shuts down the organs. There is usually a ripple or two and the dog passes. It is sad, but it is not terribly painful. It ends the dog's life, but it is quick, and there is no reason for the dog to be terrified or manhandled in the process.

I understand that you do not want to put the dog down, else the dog would not have bitten six times. It would have been put down before now. I wish there was a recipe like:

Hard exercise, running for 30-45 minutes 2 times per day
30 minutes training in obedience every day
30 minutes training in tracking or herding or agility every day
NILIF all the time
1 30 minute stay exercise per day
crate or kenneled when you are not home and at night

that would guaranty you with a dog that will never, ever have another incident. I wish I could wave a magic wand and exercise the demons. Whatever route you choose isn't going to be easy. And, there are a lot of charletons out there, that will be perfectly happy to take your money and who will at best not make things worse.

I suggest finding the best, most reputable trainer in your area, and ask him/her to recommend a good behaviorist for an aggressive dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> in the end, this is the 'net', it's easy to say behaviorist, put the dog down..
> 
> To be honest, I dont have enough info to make a solid decision, but I can tell you this, one of MY dogs ever downright 'attacked' me, he'd be in some big doo doo. You (dog) do not bite/attack your human.


That is why I always say: *DEPENDING ON HOW SEVERE THIS IS. *

Because you can't make those decisions from over the net. 

At one point, you got to stop trying and do what is right for the dog...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

GregK said:


> Both wrong.
> 
> Bad advise to give over the internet. Let the professional that sees the dog in person advise the owner on what action to take.



Its not bad just because you don't agree with it. I would have put the dog down already depending on the circumstances around the bites. Most people I know around here would have shot the dog after the first or second bite.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Depending on how severe these bites were, that's exactly what I'd do.
> 
> Two people, husband and herself? And with her husband it was the second time?
> 
> ...



I agree 100%. The OP should really be careful on how they handle things from here on out. It may not just be the dogs neck on the line. 

Other than saying that I would put the dog down already, I can just say to have a professional come out and see the dog first hand.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I have very little tolerance for dogs who bite people, either in our own pack, or foster dogs. Some dog-dog aggression can be dealt with but human biting, not acceptable at all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> I have very little tolerance for dogs who bite people, either in our own pack, or foster dogs. Some dog-dog aggression can be dealt with but human biting, not acceptable at all.


So long as people did not create the biter. Some dogs have physical problems, some are unbalanced, some are woefully neglected with regards to training and socialization, some are terribly neglected with regards to the basic necessities of life, and some are deliberately abused to make them vicious. 

I guess I do not blame a dog for biting. I do not say, this is a bad dog, it bites. If the dog has a problem, trying to find out why it has a problem might help us determine whether it makes sense to work with the dog or to put the dog down. But even if we must put a dog down, I do not consider them bad dogs, I consider it either a problem in their make up -- they were born with it, or acquired it, or it is a problem with our inability to deal with the problem.

Not everyone can work with an aggressive dog. I cannot go into prisons and spread the Gospel to prisoners. I know this. It is not something I can do. Sorry. My friend cannot understand that. But it is not something everyone can do. It is maybe a temperament thing. Not every human being can work with an aggressive dog being. 

Not everyone has the time and money for the amount of training, socialization, time, etc. 

Not every situation is acceptable for managing an aggressive dog during the time it takes for rehabilitation. Having an aggressive dog and four school-age children is probably not a good match. 

Sometimes dogs need to be put down because there is little hope for the cure, and sometimes because we are unable to bring that cure around because of our own makeup. 

I don't like the idea of not tolerating a dog who bites, because a dog is a creature without morals. It has had to resort to biting usually due to our failure in one aspect or another. We are living with an animal that is not human and expecting it to be in some ways human. If we have a dog that cannot transistion to living safely with humans, the dog is not bad, it is just not good at living with humans, and putting it down is not an act of vengeance or punishment, it is more our failure than the dogs. There is no place in human society for a dog that cannot adjust to living with humans. So it must be put down. 

Humans can be bad or good people. Bad people can do good things, good people can do bad things. Dogs cannot be bad or good as a whole. They are dogs. They can do good things, they can be loved, they can be obedient, they can be safe. They cannot be intrinsically bad either. It is ridiculous to take a dog's life as a punishment. Where there may be reasons to take a person's life as a punishment -- not getting into that here, but the arguments for and against capital punishment do not apply to dogs. Dogs are not bad. Dogs might do bad things. But they are not bad. 

I don't think I am being very clear.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

There is a reason I put the bite scale back on page 3 of this thread. The OP said the dog bit her husband badly (in the first post) but didn't really elaborate. The scale is a good way to get a more objective look at the bite itself. Dr. Dunbar said in one of his blogs that he will only work with dogs where the bite was a level 1-3, he refers the 4 to a Behaviorist and deems 5-6 for Euthanasia generally. One person may deem a 2 as a "bad" bite, but we see that here pretty regularly so it is all relative. What precipitates the bite is equally important, but we haven't gotten much info in that regard,
Now having said all that, I will say that most of the dogs we have dealt with here that were "biters" could be worked with and managed, but generally the dog is not really "cured" in that if the dog's innate reaction to a given situation is to bite, then it is very hard to change that. If the dog was given to us to live here forever, then it would probably be doable, and we have done that in the past, but most average-joe dog owners can't or won't do the extensive rehab work and training required to turn the dog back into a solid citizen. Even the people who come to us in tears and swear up and down that they will do anything generally last about 6-8 weeks before they start flaking out and missing appointments, etc. We are very clear at the outset that this is a long term project and can't be rushed, and you can't skip steps,etc, and the owners are all about it when they are still in shock from whatever incident occurred to get them to seek help, but as the memory fades and the dog shows some signs of "normal" behavior and they start to look at how much money they are spending, the urgency goes away and that is the last we hear from them.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> Its not bad just because you don't agree with it. I would have put the dog down already depending on the circumstances around the bites. Most people I know around here would have shot the dog after the first or second bite.


No, it's bad advice because it's bad advice.

It's not for someone here on the internet to advise this member to destroy their dog without even seeing the dog and evaluating the situation.

And as far as shooting a dog for biting the first time....that's just pathetic! :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I do not consider them bad dogs, I consider it either a problem in their make up


OH I never said they are bad dogs. There really _are_ no bad dogs. 
In my a/c job I put many a dog to sleep for biting either humans, or killing other animals. None of them were "bad". They had irresponsible owners, yes. Most were very good dogs, some were dogs I'd never trust to not bite a human though. One of my own dogs bit me, and more than a few foster dogs. 
But none were bad.
Does that make them worthy to save? 
Not necessarily, when dogs who don't need intensive training or therapy to make them non-biters (and hope and pray the new owner can provide the therapy and training) are dying in death rows across the country when I could save one of them, instead of pouring time and energy into a biter, or to say, a dog that will not hesitate to bite someone. Just can't risk it. 
Not the dog's fault, no, it's never a _bad _dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GregK said:


> It's not for someone here on the internet to advise this member to destroy their dog without even seeing the dog and evaluating the situation.


Curious how many more bites one should endure before calling it quits?
Because... while it's not necessarly for "us on the 'net" to advise this person, they _came here_ for advice. 
Which means they very well may not have the resources or money to hire a trainer or behaviorist.
So...we're doing the best we can with what we're given. 
And there may be a valid reason for this dog to "bite severely" or whatever the terminology was, but then again, why risk it? It's bitten each person there, more than once. 
At some point you stop saying "why did this happen" and trying to figure it out, and say "we have to help this person feel safe in their own home".


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

I understand what you're saying but we just don't know. 

There's a lot of if's and maybe's here.

if the owner will not or can not hire a professional trainer then I would agree with destroying the dog because he will bite again if nothing is done to stop this pattern.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> OH I never said they are bad dogs. There really _are_ no bad dogs.
> In my a/c job I put many a dog to sleep for biting either humans, or killing other animals. None of them were "bad". They had irresponsible owners, yes. Most were very good dogs, some were dogs I'd never trust to not bite a human though. One of my own dogs bit me, and more than a few foster dogs.
> But none were bad.
> Does that make them worthy to save?
> ...


That's kool. If I am determining which dogs to try to find a new home for, and which dogs get the needle, the biting dog is going to the Happy Hunting Grounds. Sorry. I agree with you fully there. I would also put down a dog that is severely sick or injured, and use the money that might have been spent caring for that dog in saving a couple of others. That is harsh maybe, but there are only so many resources to go around, and a dog that is suffering should not suffer any longer than absolutely necessary. 

If I had a dog from puppy on up and it is now an adult, and has a problem, I am probably going to try a few things first. 

If I rescued a dog from a pound or from a rescue and six or seven months later the dog shows some behaviors that are less than desirable, it is decision time. On the one hand, we accept the dog with the understanding that it may have baggage, and it may have health or other problems down the line, and they are our responsibility. On the other hand, if I do not have the ability or resources to properly manage and work with a dog with that kind of a problem, then I am being irresponsible if I just hope it doesn't happen again.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Selzer, I absolutely agree with you on that as well. I can't understand for the world why every single second has to be squeezed out of dogs. But sadly those dogs are the ones that get the most attention and bring the most donation in. People, are suckers for those "poor lil furbabys."



selzer said:


> That's kool. If I am determining which dogs to try to find a new home for, and which dogs get the needle, the biting dog is going to the Happy Hunting Grounds. Sorry. I agree with you fully there. I would also put down a dog that is severely sick or injured, and use the money that might have been spent caring for that dog in saving a couple of others. That is harsh maybe, but there are only so many resources to go around, and a dog that is suffering should not suffer any longer than absolutely necessary.
> 
> If I had a dog from puppy on up and it is now an adult, and has a problem, I am probably going to try a few things first.
> 
> If I rescued a dog from a pound or from a rescue and six or seven months later the dog shows some behaviors that are less than desirable, it is decision time. On the one hand, we accept the dog with the understanding that it may have baggage, and it may have health or other problems down the line, and they are our responsibility. On the other hand, if I do not have the ability or resources to properly manage and work with a dog with that kind of a problem, then I am being irresponsible if I just hope it doesn't happen again.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

The lady that got me started in GSDs once had to take back one of her dogs when he was 3 years old. He had chased and bitten 2 kids. The owners were going to euthanize him but she stepped in and took him back.

Came to find out that the owners left the dog outside when they weren't home and the neighborhood kids took to throwing rocks at him. So, when given the chance he fought back.

She brought him into her home with HER kids and within a month had him completely turned around.

Went on to finish his Championship and he, in turned, sired my dearly missed boy Riggs.

So - without knowing the WHY behind the bites there's NO WAY to give advice.

At this point the owner has 2 choices: get professional help or put the dog down.

Most rescues will not take a known biter.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

GregK said:


> *No, it's bad advice because it's bad advice.*
> 
> It's not for someone here on the internet to advise this member to destroy their dog without even seeing the dog and evaluating the situation.
> 
> And as far as shooting a dog for biting the first time....that's just pathetic! :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:



Im sorry but thats still a matter of opinion no matter which way you cut it. As it was said, they came here for advic . Some of it some people liked,some of it some people didn't. If they are just going to take the first piece of advice given to them then there are other issues there beside the dog. They came here, asked for advice and they got it. Its not all always going to be the same, and its up to them to decide what they want to listen to/follow/acknowledge. Its not up to someone else to determine what is/isn't good advice is most cases. (some I could see, but not for stuff like this)


And yes, I do agree with you on the last part. Its not something that I would do, but I know people who have and in some of the cases is was warranted, but in most cases it was not. But that is the way of it down here and it is legal.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> Im sorry but thats still a matter of opinion no matter which way you cut it. As it was said, they came here for advic . Some of it some people liked,some of it some people didn't. If they are just going to take the first piece of advice given to them then there are other issues there beside the dog. They came here, asked for advice and they got it. Its not all always going to be the same, and its up to them to decide what they want to listen to/follow/acknowledge. Its not up to someone else to determine what is/isn't good advice is most cases. (some I could see, but not for stuff like this)


Advising *this* owner to destroy *this* dog over the internet is *bad* advice no matter which way you cut it. We still don't even know the facts about the other bites. A tooth mark on a hand can be considered a "bite".

In some cases it could be good advice. If the owner had said, for example, the dog attacked her child and the child needed 200 stitches.... it'd be a no-brainer.


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

She DID say her husband got bitten badly. I would think its safe to say it was not just a tooth mark on his hand. 

Any advice can be bad advice. 

Obviously that dog is already to be considered dangerous. No matter how severe the bites were, and given the info presented they certainly were not just nips, the dog has already attacked and bitten repeadetely. The next attack could very well end badly or fatal. It doesn't take all that much for a large dog such as that to kill a human. 

So if YOUR advice is taken and the dog maims or kills someone in the meantime, I would consider your advice not to have worked out so great.

If a behaviorist is contacted there is no way of knowing when he/she can come out, and whether a bad attack will occur in the meantime, there is also no way of knowing if that behaviorist will help. 
That behaviorist may want to do many sessions (after all, it IS their livelyhood) but the dog doesn't improve or still be a loose cannon. Then what ?

I'm sorry, but at this point one must weigh the risk very carefully and IMHO !!!! the dog should be humanely destroyed or given to a professional that is willing to put the time and expense into rehabilitating this dog. Most times dogs such as that will should never be trusted 100% (many trainers/behaviorists view) and will always have to be maintained in 100% control all the time, no slip ups.

Again, which advice is the best ? 

Is it worth the risk ? 

Only the OP can decide that, but certainly, ALL advice given so far hold credibility. Personally, I would never risk my or my families life that way. I have a responsibility to my family as well as my pets, and sorry, my family will always come first.


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

how old is the GSD?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GregK said:


> Advising *this* owner to destroy *this* dog over the internet is *bad* advice no matter which way you cut it. We still don't even know the facts about the other bites. A tooth mark on a hand can be considered a "bite".
> 
> In some cases it could be good advice. If the owner had said, for example, the dog attacked her child and the child needed 200 stitches.... it'd be a no-brainer.


Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a dog. 
The world won't end because this (or any) dog is put to sleep.
I don't know why suggesting euth. for a dog should create such panic, stress and worry. 
We don't have to live with this dog. The owner does. As such, they are really the only ones who can say whether or not this dog 1) workable but 2) if they even want to continue to try. 
It's really within their rights to take it to the vet. At the _very_ least for a consult.
The vet could help them decide then if the dog is unstable or not.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

TriadGSD said:


> how old is the GSD?


It's on the 2nd page I think. I think they said 6yrs. and they adopted it as an adult. You'd have to read back.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Reading the original post, this person fears her dog will hurt someone. That's obvious. C'mon folks, people don't post "Please help - I may have to put my dog down" unless it's serious. The dog bites aggressively without any known provocation and has on several occasions. This was stated. This reminds me of a story I read once about a GSD in Missouri, who had attacked its owner's live-in mother (requiring multiple facial stitches), then later killed her. When asked if the dog had been to see a behaviorist or trainer, the owner stated, "We took him to a trainer once but it didn't work out." WTH? The whole thing was shrouded in denial, and it cost someone their life, plus I'm sure the dog was put down anyway. In retrospect, a sister who did not live in the house had feared something like that would end up happening for quite some time, and had stated her concerns to both her mother and her brother.

I think telling this person to have the dog evaluated first, and if no explanation can be found then seriously consider euthanasia, is responsible. There is nothing normal about a dog that attacks a person while they're laying on a couch. She didn't say "chewed on" or "nipped." I didn't get the impression there was anything playful about being bit, and bit hard. There was no fear trigger by a person known to the dog laying on a couch, either. I myself would not allow a dog that just randomly aggressively bit people in my house.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I have not read every post in it's entirety however I have at least looked at every post and no one has yet mentioned the "cause" of the bite. It's being debated whether or not the dog should live from a "unprovoked" bite and while I won't say one way or another if you should put your dog down I definitely do NOT see this as an unprovoked attack. If the OP sees this as being unprovoked I definitely advise immediate help from a behaviorist and a trainer to help the owner learn dogs. I don't want to sound mean however, the OP said the dog was behind the couch growling and then the husband put his hand behind his head and the dog bit. If the dog was behind a couch growling I'm assuming he was probably afraid of something if hes hiding and growling is a warning then a hand comes out of nowhere to the dog and he bit sounds like fear aggressive IMO but I'm not there so don't take my word for it but I would definitely get a professional to help before putting a dog to sleep. Again not to sound mean but this all sounds rather on point for fear aggression thats being poorly managed. Something happens scares the dog the dog reacts and bites owner isn't paying attention so doesn't see it as being provoked so figures dog is aggressive and attacking for no reason allows normally sweet dog to be around other people to bite over and over because they miss all the cues that signal the dog is uncomfortable and getting ready to react. Would not dismiss the bites because completely against dog putting it's mouth on people but also don't feel the dog should die because an owner isn't handling the situation properly a good behaviorist could probably read the dog and see if it's fear aggressive and help the owner learn to manage it and read the dog to prevent the attacks from happening.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Reading the original post, this person fears her dog will hurt someone. That's obvious. C'mon folks, people don't post "Please help - I may have to put my dog down" unless it's serious. The dog bites aggressively without any known provocation and has on several occasions. This was stated. This reminds me of a story I read once about a GSD in Missouri, who had attacked its owner's live-in mother (requiring multiple facial stitches), then later killed her. When asked if the dog had been to see a behaviorist or trainer, the owner stated, "We took him to a trainer once but it didn't work out." WTH? The whole thing was shrouded in denial, and it cost someone their life, plus I'm sure the dog was put down anyway. In retrospect, a sister who did not live in the house had feared something like that would end up happening for quite some time, and had stated her concerns to both her mother and her brother.
> 
> I think telling this person to have the dog evaluated first, and if no explanation can be found then seriously consider euthanasia, is responsible. There is nothing normal about a dog that attacks a person while they're laying on a couch. She didn't say "chewed on" or "nipped." I didn't get the impression there was anything playful about being bit, and bit hard. *There was no fear trigger by a person known to the dog laying on a couch, either. I myself would not allow a dog that just randomly aggressively bit people in my house.*


PLEASE re-read what the OP wrote again. She stated the dog jumped on the husband to get attention then the dog went behind the couch (so got off the husband obviously) and was behind the couch growling then husband put his hand behind him and the dog attacked. 

Don't have all the details but assuming hubby probably draped hand behind head over edge of couch and since dog was already on guard growling hand scared dog and it attacked hand or maybe hubby put hand behind couch to comfort growling dog and got bit either way there was growling which is a warning and not just the dog attacking out of the blue however it went unnoticed and now the dog is paying.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Why would the dog be afraid when the husband had just petted it, though? That makes no sense.
I cannot picture, in my head, the dog attacking from behind the couch. Or why it went back there to growl.
There's not been a real good description and the OP also stated it bit her "really unprovoked" which is, admittedly, subjective, but they also stated it bit two other people.
There's much history left out and no good descriptions of what was going on when the bites occurred.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Why would the dog be afraid when the husband had just petted it, though? That makes no sense.
> I cannot picture, in my head, the dog attacking from behind the couch. Or why it went back there to growl.
> There's not been a real good description and the OP also stated it bit her "really unprovoked" which is, admittedly, subjective, but they also stated it bit two other people.
> There's much history left out and no good descriptions of what was going on when the bites occurred.


Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too. I have a dog right now that's fearful of new things, but she's not afraid of ME. In fact, when she is afraid, she looks to me for assurance and calm. If she starts growling at and aggressively biting ME, it's over. Just my thoughts.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Holmeshx2 said:


> I have not read every post in it's entirety however I have at least looked at every post and no one has yet mentioned the "cause" of the bite. It's being debated whether or not the dog should live from a "unprovoked" bite and while I won't say one way or another if you should put your dog down I definitely do NOT see this as an unprovoked attack. If the OP sees this as being unprovoked I definitely advise immediate help from a behaviorist and a trainer to help the owner learn dogs. I don't want to sound mean however, the OP said the dog was behind the couch growling and then the husband put his hand behind his head and the dog bit. If the dog was behind a couch growling I'm assuming he was probably afraid of something if hes hiding and growling is a warning then a hand comes out of nowhere to the dog and he bit sounds like fear aggressive IMO but I'm not there so don't take my word for it but I would definitely get a professional to help before putting a dog to sleep. Again not to sound mean but this all sounds rather on point for fear aggression thats being poorly managed. Something happens scares the dog the dog reacts and bites owner isn't paying attention so doesn't see it as being provoked so figures dog is aggressive and attacking for no reason allows normally sweet dog to be around other people to bite over and over because they miss all the cues that signal the dog is uncomfortable and getting ready to react. Would not dismiss the bites because completely against dog putting it's mouth on people but also don't feel the dog should die because an owner isn't handling the situation properly a good behaviorist could probably read the dog and see if it's fear aggressive and help the owner learn to manage it and read the dog to prevent the attacks from happening.


You can call me mean. I don't know what the dogs' problem is. He had already bitten the OP twice. No dog I own is ever going to bite me twice. Won't get the second chance. The first time will be the dogs' last conscious act. Why on earth do I want to own a dog that I have to manage and control? With all the wonderful loving dogs out there that I could have for companionship, why would I settle for a dog who is a liability? To each his own. But not me and not in my house.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> Why would the dog be afraid when the husband had just petted it, though? That makes no sense.


Here is part of the original description of what happened:



> the dog jumped up for patting which he does often and my husband patted him and then the dog went behind the sofa and started growling and my husband dropped a hand behind him and the dog attacked


I underlined the part that I think may be a key.

I want to preface by saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly what is going on with the dog just from a brief description typed up on a webboard.

I'm thinking that it could be the dog has some resource guarding issues and/or thinks it is in control. Maybe there was a bone or toy on the ground behind the couch and the dog thought the man was trying to grab it.

Again - NO-ONE can tell the owner exactly what to do based on a brief description.




longhairshepmom said:


> She DID say her husband got bitten badly. I would think its safe to say it was not just a tooth mark on his hand.


One person's "badly" could be very different from anothers. I know someone that wanted to euthanize their dog because it "attacked" a neighbor kid. Her exact words - attacked. When she first started telling me about this I was expecting bites and blood and stitches and hospitals and police - all that from the way she was acting and the way she built up to the story.

Turned out the dog jumped up on the kid while he was holding the dogs toy and scratched him.

NO bites, NO blood, no-one was even hurt. The kids parents had to talk the owners out of killing the dog - which luckily they were able to. The dog was rehomed (the woman said she didn't trust the dog after the attack).

Again - perception is a VERY subjective thing!


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

msvette I completely agree with you it all sounds super odd and I have no clue why the dog was hiding however she states the dog was behind the couch growling, hubby put hand down, dog bit. Now why the dog was growling or hiding I have no clue or even why the hand was put down (just getting comfortable or for the dog) but regardless thats not unprovoked. A simple hand from the owner should not be a cause for biting and granted its not being provoked in the sense they deliberately did something to the dog however, it was mismanagement and if the dog was in a fearful state and growling as a warning then a hand popped out of nowhere scaring it I can understand the bite. Not condoning it but if it's fear aggression it could be a good thing because it can be learned and managed and trained with help build confidence etc.. not the best but not the end of the world either.

Stevenzachsmom I do disagree I have had them before and it's a pain to do however if I've owned a dog for 4 years and have failed the dog by not properly training and noticing signs to help manage and stop bites before they happened then I feel I owe it to the dog not to kill it. 

Laurie so interesting you brought that up I was just on the phone talking to my husband as well but figured the way the thread was turning it wasn't the greatest to bring it up right now for debate but I agree that if the dog is having behavior issues and randomly biting etc.. I would surely bump up NILIF and no way in hades would I allow the dog to force me to give it attention and allow the dog to make calls on when and how it gets attention.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Here is part of the original description of what happened:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly -- I can't even tell where the husband's hand _went._ I thought perhaps behind the dog. Or behind the couch. Not sure how the man was there on the couch. Lying down? Sitting up with the foot extended? ETC. Too few details.

Perception - we just dealt with this last week, one of our adopted dogs (got into a home a month ago) "attacked [our] dog unprovoked". I asked for an explanation and while it wasn't exactly "provoked", there was a trigger and I was able to identify the trigger (resource guarding - the girl was guarding the head of the stairs and the male dog wanted to go up and proceeded to, when the female - we adopted to them - attacked him). 
I told them she's resource guarding, gave them a plethora of information about NILIF and "Mind Games", and then the number to the trainer who assists us on that side of the mountains. They've still not told me if the dog drew blood (I'm thinking "no") and I've asked them directly 3-4x, via email anyway. 

Anyway - I doubt that this situation the OP describes is as "unprovoked" as they think, either, but it really doesn't matter, because the OP is missing it all. And they have got to learn what are the triggers to even be able to work with the dog.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, virtually all of us have suggested the dog/situation be evaluated by a behaviorist right off the bat. Either they're going to have to take control of the dog or the dog is going to take control of them, one way or the other.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Either they're going to have to take control of the dog or the dog is going to take control of them, one way or the other.


Or a third party takes control if it comes to that .


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Holmeshx2,

It is fine you disagree with me. I understand there are people who have and are caring for such dogs. I'm just saying it won't be me. It hasn't been me, so obviously I haven't FAILED a dog. It isn't always the people. Sometimes it really is the dog. At the end of the day, it may not matter why the dog bites, if you can't stop it from biting. That is not worth the risk to me. Again - to each his own.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

OP, if you're still around it would be helpful if you could post more details.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

lauri & the gang said:


> here is part of the original description of what happened:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


exactly!!!


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> You can call me mean. I don't know what the dogs' problem is. He had already bitten the OP twice. No dog I own is ever going to bite me twice. Won't get the second chance. The first time will be the dogs' last conscious act.


Really? One chance, huh? I'd advise you not to own dogs then.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Since it's a free country and dogs are property, everyone has the right to decide what they will or will not tolerate from dogs. While people can look down on them, belittle, begrudge, etc. it doesn't change that fact.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I wish the OP would come back to this thread and provide more information about the bites that have occurred with this dog. She mentioned that the dog bit her husband and herself, as well as two other people. 

To be honest, I would be willing to give a dog the benefit of the doubt - and a trainer or behaviorist - if the dog was showing aggressive behavior toward my husband or myself. If I take a dog into my home and know or expect the dog has issues (or find out that it does), this would be the first thing I do. See what's going on and if it can be fixed.

However, this dog has already bitten two other people who don't live in their household. (I assume that if the dog had bitten people who live IN their household, she would have identified them as family members, not "other people".) 

At that point, IMHO, the behaviorist/trainer card runs out for me. If I have an "issue" dog that I am dealing with ... fine. It's my duty to keep the dog under control and ensure I can work on those issues without endangering other people. If my "issue dog" ends up biting not just one, but TWO other people, I would consider the time for trainers and behaviorists to be done and over with, and I would take the veterinarian's advice to PTS.

Unfortunately, the OP has not given us a lot of information, but I don't think any of the advice given is BAD advice. Because of the lack of information, people are saying "if the following happened with my dog, I would do this". That's not bad advice, IMHO.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

GregK said:


> Advising *this* owner to destroy *this* dog over the internet is *bad* advice no matter which way you cut it. We still don't even know the facts about the other bites. A tooth mark on a hand can be considered a "bite".
> 
> In some cases it could be good advice. If the owner had said, for example, the dog attacked her child and the child needed 200 stitches.... it'd be a no-brainer.



From reading the OP it doesn't really come across as just a little tooth mark. I get alot of distress from the OP, being very upset that her dog has badly bitten at least five times.

You can put it however you want, you simply think its bad advice because you disagree with it. That is it, that is all. . I personally have no problem with any advice given, even if I do disagree with it.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

GregK said:


> Really? One chance, huh? I'd advise you not to own dogs then.


Wow! Way to judge GregK. You don't know me like that. I suppose you would advise against the horses, rabbits and kids as well. Too late on all counts. 

I have owned dogs my entire life. I can read a dog - especially mine. I know the difference between mouthing, nipping, herding, rough play, accidental and serious bites. I don't need that kind of advice from the board. 

I pulled my GSD from the shelter 12 years ago. I was her third home. She had serious dog aggression issues. Obviously, I was dog savvy enough to evaluate my own dog. Now at 14, her health is failing. She has been well loved and well cared for. She has not been human aggressive a day in her life. I understand there are some people who are able and willing to manage that type of dog. That is their prerogative. Be my guest. That is not for me. My home is not set up for that and my family comes first.

For you to say that I should not own a dog would have been a death sentence for my girl. No one else would have put up with her DA. The shelter I adopted her from usually puts GSDs down. The last few years, I have posted asking questions about my senior dog reg. health and changes in diet. Not once have I ever sought help with a behavioral issue. Never needed any. Seems I have things under control.

I doubt the OP will be back. She should seek a behaviorist, if that is her desire. If the dog continues to bite people, the decision to euth. will be taken out of her hands. If she does decide to euth. the dog, she won't tell us. Why would she want to be told how horrible she is and that she should never own dogs?

IMO it is extremely important for people to know what they can and are willing to handle. We all have different limits. I know mine.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think what makes forums such a bag of worms, as it were, is that people feel attacked when others on forums do not agree with their choices. 

I often read threads - not just on here, but on other forums as well - where people are very judgmental. I often get this vibe that if you don't put every last penny into surgeries and ongoing medications and consulting several vets and several behaviorists and several trainers, then you're not doing your job as a dog owner and that you shouldn't have a dog unless you're willing to do that. There's also a lot of judgment about people who choose to rehome or PTS. 

IMHO and not necessarily regarding this thread. Just a general observation.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Agreed AbbyK9. I don't let the judges bother me. I don't imagine new posters are that tough though.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Pretty much everybody is judgemental at one point or another. It's just important to understand that whatever the OP does, it's none of our business. It's the OP's decision and if they decide against the advise, there is nothing anyone can do about since it's a free country. Also, it doesn't matter how much information we get. The information given today can be outdated tomorrow and the circumstances always change. 

A dog can either regress or improve rapidly. You don't know what is going on in that persons life, you don't know how they live, if they can even afford all that. Some can't even afford to pay 200 dollars to put the dog down, let alone the 800 for five training hours with a behaviorist. 

There may not even be a Behaviorist anywhere near where that person lives... we just don't know whats going on, we can only guess and do our best to give advise. But ultimately, no matter how judgemental we are or aren't... there is always the button to log off the forum. There is always the possibility to withhold certain information and just not talk about whats going on, if there has something changed or what final decision you have made because you know what you can expect from certain people. 

In the end, it's nobodies business what anyone does with their dogs. Your dog is not my dog and my dog is not your dog. It's my decision what I do. It's your decision what you do. There is nothing we can do about it. The only thing we can do is to accept it and move on. Anything else is wasted time and it won't change the outcome.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I often get this vibe that if you don't put every last penny into surgeries and ongoing medications and consulting several vets and several behaviorists and several trainers, then you're not doing your job as a dog owner and that you shouldn't have a dog unless you're willing to do that.


You're so right. 
In all actuality this decision (to put to sleep or not) should be a decision between a caring vet who knows your situation, and yourself, not a bunch of people who don't even _live_ with the dog. 

I've learned that if you like being criticized, and having things held over your head for your entire "forum life", go ahead and bare your heart and soul. 
But if you don't prefer to be crucified for your decisions with dogs, just don't put it out there for people to criticize.
We've had some very difficult decisions over the past few yrs. with our own dogs, and I never posted here (on a forum that is) because I knew just that - no matter what decision we made, we'd be criticized, and I'm hard enough on myself without the help of a bunch of strangers who feel they know my situation _much better_ than do I myself and felt that (despite having never met me!) they could make my decisions better!

Ah, forums, gotta love 'em


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> You're so right.
> In all actuality this decision (to put to sleep or not) should be a decision between a caring vet who knows your situation, and yourself, not a bunch of people who don't even _live_ with the dog.
> 
> I've learned that if you like being criticized, and having things held over your head for your entire "forum life", go ahead and bare your heart and soul.
> ...


I've done that mistake a couple of times. Won't ever happen again.. no more issues or health problems will be discussed on here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe its the stage of the moon, but my fuse is just so short. This is making me really angry. If you or I own that dog it is not going to bite six people or four people or whatever. Why? Because we are going to be working with the dog before it ever bit one person. After it bit one person we are going to re-evaluate and the dog will NOT have ANY opportunity to bite a stranger. But the chances are just so low that it will bite anyone because we are not just sitting back and waiting for it to happen again. 

If a dog bites 4-6 times, _that_ is on the owner, not the dog. 

Again, I do not believe there are bad dogs. I do not believe there are dogs that deserve to be put down. I believe there are dogs that have medical conditions like rage syndrome that we cannot manage and have to put the dog down. I believe that is related to epilepsy or brain injury and it is not the dog's fault, at the same time, you cannot just live with a ticking time bomb.

But this is rare. It happens, but it is generally not even a consideration. This dog does not seem to have rage syndrome. 

What is so infuriating is that people are saying, how many bites before you put the dog down? Maybe owners should have a one-bite forgiveness and beyond that, owners should be seriously penalized. Dogs are biting because people are failing to manage the dog, or to recognize that they cannot manage the dog and doing what needs to be done. Unfortunately, people do the following:


Dog bites someone, not serious, everyone laughs it off.

Dog bites again, this time, they try to figure out why, what happened to make the dog bite, they write it off to the dog being startled by a stupid human's idiot action. 

Dog bites again, again, they look for excuses, they start thinking that maybe the dog is bad, but if the dog is bad, they need to put it down. They don't want to think about that, so they don't. 

Dog bites again, ok, now we need to put the dog down, but maybe there is some special training device or some special training method that can save my biting dog, only it has to be cheap and work immediately without much effort.

As a last ditch effort, we will ask around to some GSD people, maybe they know where we can get the magic juice. 

Well, how many bite-people, this dog would probably have been a no-bite dog or a one-bite dog if its human did not fail. By blaming the dog, by suggesting that the dog should be put down as some type of revenge for having bitten not once but four or six times, we are completely exonerating the individual who is responsible. Without understanding that the dog's behavior is their fault, or at least their responsibility, the cycle will continue.

Sure, if they off this dog, they may get a Pippy dog next and not have any problem at all. That dog's demeanor might be such that it will be able to manage even with owners who have poor leadership skills. That solidifies the bad-dog myth. Dog A was never a problem. Dog B was, it was bad, we put it down. Dog C was fine. 

When we don't take responsibility, recognize our mistakes, we don't LEARN from them, and we will likely make the same mistake again. Dog ownership experiences are like Russian Roulette, sometimes we dodge the bullet, sometimes we do not. If we do not, it is not our fault, the dog is bad.

Under some leadership styles a dog that would be perfectly ok, maybe even desirable for work, sport, companion, etc, might end up biting. 

Whether _this_ dog is biting from fear or from lack of leadership or from whatever other reason, the owner is doing all of us an injury by allowing her dog to bite over and over again. Each dog bite that is recorded is placed against our breed. When insurance companies determine which dogs they choose not to insure owners of, they basically take the list of dog bites by breed, and every single incident hurts us. 

And, every person who has been bitten by a GSD affects a number of other people. A child is bitten, his parents, siblings, grandparents, etc. all blame the breed for biting. The kid grows up encouraged in hating and fearing the breed, and tells his friends and co-workers about his experience, and suddenly that one bite becomes inbedded in the minds of probably half of the people that person tells about it. 

I feel like the professor in The Paper Chase -- Don't just sit there, _DO_ something!!!

You do not have to put your dog down for biting six people any more than for biting one. But if you cannot manage the dog so that it does NOT bite again, then you have to put the dog down. 

I actually prefer people to work through problems with dogs. We LEARN from our problem dogs much more than we learn from our perfect dogs. And, hopefully, each successive dog that comes into our lives experiences a better, smarter, owner. And each dog becomes easier to train, not because they are better dogs, but because we are better dog owners. 

Simply euthanizing a dog with problems, or getting rid of a difficult dog takes a chunk out of our character, it makes it that much easier to dump or euthanize the next dog, and we do not become better owners. When we use euthanasia as a last resort, when we worked with a trainer, with a behaviorist, with our vet, changed our leadership style, upped our containment/management, tried exercise, schedules, change in diet -- everything and finally throw in the towel, then we have actually learned a lot along the way, and the decision is made with compassion for the animal. So, I am not against euthanizing a dog for aggressive behavior, but not as revenge or because the dog reached its bite limit. If we cannot manage the dog, if we cannot give them that college try, if we have given them our best shot and it still wasn't enough, then euthanasia may be the only thing left. 

But not because the dog bit six times.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Hmmm, interesting post GregK. According to you I should not own dogs either then like Stevenszachsmom because I wouldn't choose to have to worry every second about a biting dog After the first bite the dog would be taking a vet trip. Certainly would not give 4 or 5 or 6 bites.


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

selzer said:


> Simply euthanizing a dog with problems, or getting rid of a difficult dog takes a chunk out of our character.


Really ? Sometimes the BEST thing a owner can do is to "get rid" off (or place may be a better word) a dog. If they are overwhelmed and someone else is better equipt to handle it, its the BEST thing that could happen to the dog and everyone involved. Not talking about dangerous dogs here, just dogs that the owner can't handle for whichever other reason.

Its the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. I hate it when I see owners with dogs they can't handle and they are miserable, their dogs are miserable but nope, won't give it away because that would be admitting failure. Can't have that. Even though it may mean a better life for dog AND owner.

I have rarely seen it being "simple" to euthanize a dog with temperament problems. To say that is a slap into the face of the people that had to live through the hearbreak. Some people have family members in the house. Kids, perhaps. There is MUCH more at stake sometimes. And sorry, but those people are responsible for the wellbeing and safety of THEIR family even more so then they are responsible for the dog. Yup, doglovers and kidhaters might not like to hear it, but there it is.

If I had a dog that was SO aggressive and has bitten several people, I would not want it around my family. I can't expect everyone to be 100% vigilant at 100% of the time. I can not willingly risk mine and my families life and health. Its one thing if I just risked my own, but my childrens ?? That would be mother of the year award right there. 
And placing a dog like that ? Who's to say the new owner will be that vigilant ? Who's to say they might not pass the dog on to an unsuspecting person and somewhere down the line someone gets hurt or killed ? Sorry, not on my conscience. If I feel a dog is dangerous, I will do the heartbreaking and not simple thing of having it humanely euthanized.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

longhairshepmom said:


> Really ? Sometimes the BEST thing a owner can do is to "get rid" off (or place may be a better word) a dog. If they are overwhelmed and someone else is better equipt to handle it, its the BEST thing that could happen to the dog and everyone involved. Not talking about dangerous dogs here, just dogs that the owner can't handle for whichever other reason.
> 
> Its the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. I hate it when I see owners with dogs they can't handle and they are miserable, their dogs are miserable but nope, won't give it away because that would be admitting failure. Can't have that. Even though it may mean a better life for dog AND owner.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with you on that. 

PTS'ing a dog is never easy, nor simple, nor is it something most responsible people do light hearted. It's just not something you want to do or go through. First you have to accept that it needs to be done, then going through it is a different story and afterwards, which is the hardest part of it all, is to forgive yourself for doing it.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Who knows the entire story behind this dog? The OP was the third owner. Obviously, problems could have occurred anywhere along the line. It is clear she loves this dog. The vet has said the dog should be euth'd. Unless there is a professional who meets this dog and can say otherwise, I don't see any other choice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

longhairshepmom said:


> Really ? Sometimes the BEST thing a owner can do is to "get rid" off (or place may be a better word) a dog. If they are overwhelmed and someone else is better equipt to handle it, its the BEST thing that could happen to the dog and everyone involved. Not talking about dangerous dogs here, just dogs that the owner can't handle for whichever other reason.
> 
> Its the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. I hate it when I see owners with dogs they can't handle and they are miserable, their dogs are miserable but nope, won't give it away because that would be admitting failure. Can't have that. Even though it may mean a better life for dog AND owner.
> 
> ...


Talk about taking a sentence out of context. 

I think I talked more about euthanizing this dog than the other way around, if you look at all my posts on this topic. But firstly, I have not seen or worked with the dog, so that decision is not something I would make. But I discussed euthanasia and that it is not such a terrible thing.

However, I will stand by my statement that "simply euthanizing a dog with problems, or getting rid of a difficult dog takes a chunk out of your character." People with children should be the first people to beat down the trainers door to get their puppy into classes, not the last. If you have a family and want a dog, then you got to factor it all in. Just bringing home the puppy, giving it to the kids, and 10 months later euthanizing the dog because it bit a neighbor kit -- tell me that does not take a chunk out of your character. And what does that teach the precious children. That is simply euthanizing or dumping the dog -- not trying anything, not planning, not working with, not training. 

Kids are more important than dogs. Yupp, and I do not even have any. In fact, if my dog and some kid I didn't know were drowning and I could save just one, my dog, my Babsy, who shares my bed and licks my plate, would be checking out the Happy Hunting Grounds waiting for me to join her. 

My problem is the multiple bite deal. The dog bit four people time to euthanize. The dog bit six times, time to go to the vet. The dog bit once, euthanize. The dog bit twice. Sorry, that is my problem. If a dog is worth working with after biting once, it is probably worth working with after biting six times, if no one bothered to do anything, or to do the right thing after bites 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. 

If you read my posts, I have said again and again you have to be realistic about your ability to commit to working through it, that not everyone is capable of working with a dangerous dog, and every situation is not acceptable for that.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Whew. OK one thing the OP asked is if there was some place that took dogs like this. Yes. Best Friends in Knab Utah might. If the OP is still around that would be worth contacting.
I wish her the best with this dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

selzer said:


> Talk about taking a sentence out of context.
> 
> I think I talked more about euthanizing this dog than the other way around, if you look at all my posts on this topic. But firstly, I have not seen or worked with the dog, so that decision is not something I would make. But I discussed euthanasia and that it is not such a terrible thing.
> 
> ...


Sue I hear what you are saying. Guess I'm taking the thread even farther off track, but.....All dogs don't come into families as puppies. My cousin's ex took in an adult Springer spaniel. He had asthma and could not keep her. Gave the dog to my cousin. She didn't want the dog. I took her. She was very cute. I had two young kids - 6 and 2. First day, the dog bit my 6 year old and growled into my 2 year olds' face. Her butt was out the door and right back to my cousin. Her brother (my other cousin) was in an adult only home. He took the dog. That dog bit him a couple of times. He loved her and put up with her. I'm glad he took her. 

But - I do not feel the dog was my responsibility. I wasn't going to run to the vet and trainer and behaviorist trying to sort out the dogs' demons, while it was intent on eating my kids.


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

My point was that after 6 bites it is pretty much ingrained into the dog that it can get away with that. It DOES build up. It does make a difference. It may not have been fair to the dog that it got the chance to bite again and again, but after all, it has.
And who knows, perhaps the owners DID try to prevent it but it has become so completely out of the blue and un-provoked that they weren't prepared ? Yes, they should have been. But matter of fact, the dog can now clearly be labeled as a dangerous dog. They did take him to the Vet and appearantly the vet found no physical reason for this aggression.

This isn't a puppy. They aren't the first owner. They might have tried and tried to make it work, no-one knows what they have done so far. 

I 100% believe that when it comes to a truly dangerous dog, it should never be placed. All that does is pass the buck. Even responsible rescues can fold, things happen, who's to say that dog will be maintained 100% under control at all times throughout its future ? I couldn't live with myself if I placed a known dangerous dog and find out that it killed someone later on. The hard and responsible thing to do is to put it to sleep.

Keeping that dog even while trying to find a behaviorist may very well put them at high risk. Giving the dog to some other person or place (as they have inquired about) is imho very irresponsible. 

They are in a hard place and they do have my sympathy, I only hope they weren't scared away.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My guess is that any place known for taking aggressive dogs would probably be over loaded because nobody wants to kill their pet, and that seems like a good option.

But if you consider, the dog will probably be in a kennel, fed, watered, cleaned after, and that is about it. I would be so worried about the dog landing in a potential hoarding situation that I would rather just euthanize the dog than leave it to someone else to manage the dog until the dog dies.

I think if you love the dog, you really have to make the choice between managing and working through it however long it takes or putting the dog down.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Best Friends is just like any other 'rescue" they are overwhelmed with people wanting to send them aggressive hard to handle dogs.They can't afford to take everyones cast offs either.
If a person is overwhelmed and can't control a biting dog, especially one that bites without what the OP feels is provacation,then instead of trying to foist the dog off on another person or rescue group, why not be a true dog owner and have the dog euthanized? There is nothing wrong with it if that is the correct decision for her and her family and their safety. I feel sorry for people who come to this forum and ask for help or at least a shoulder to "cry" on and get ripped apart when they and their vet decide it is probably for the best interest of the dog and family to euthanize him. Sometimes a dog can't be retrained to where that person feels confident or safe enough to keep the dog. It may not be the dogs fault, it may not be the owners fault, but a combination of genetics, environment, and training. It is just not going to work, and the person comes here to ask for help or just give some confidence to her decision and instead she is deluged with "get a behaviorist or trainer" to make it all better.
Maybe this person loves her dog, but can't AFFORD to have a behaviorist spend months and months trying to rehabilitate this dog. Maybe this person is so afraid of the dog biting her and her husband and family, she just can't have him around anymore. It sounds like this dog has bitten many times, its not a first time bite and a rash decision. To the people on this forum who are so adament to the OP to keep this dog, get a behaviourist and trainer, expect her to be prepared to spend the rest of the dogs life knowing she or her family will not be able to enjoy the dog like a normal dog or enjoy having a dog in their lives as its biting gets worse and worse, and she is overwhelmed and just wants to do what she and her vet feel best, if you people are so sure its the right thing to do, why not offer a forever home to this dog, pay to ship it to you and you pay for the behaviorist and keep the dog forever. Instead, the OP is basically told she is awful for making a decision that works for HER and HER family since she is the one living with this dog.
Nobody can always have a happy ending with an animal, whether a dog, cat, horse or whatever. Sometimes, for whatever reason, an animal has issues that get worse and worse and something has to be done. 
If I ever had to put a dog down due to illness or aggression, I would NEVER post it to this forum because there are some who feel they know better than the person living with the dog and that it should not be done unless it is done their way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know about it being ingrained. After a dog pees in the house six times it is pretty ingrained that the dog can pee in the house, but you can work with it and teach the dog not to pee in the house. 

I think that a dog that has bitten has a lower bite threshold, or that you know that your dog has a low bite threshold. If the dog is hurt and in pain, it is more likely to bite than a dog with a higher threshold. If the dog is startled or afraid it will be more likely to bite than a dog with a higher threshold. I don't think a dog thinks, gee I got away with that, or that worked I will do that again. 

I think if you can determine what type of aggression it is, you might be able to create a plan to work on the issues.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

There seriously is a difference between a peeing and a biting dog. 

If you are a homeowner... your house won't sue you over, nor will it have scars or a trauma for the rest of the life.


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Housebreaking and peeing in the house is a training issue. It has nothing to do with the dogs temperament. Simply with its training and trainability.

Aggression is very much a personality trait. I would never dream of it being as easy to handle as housebreaking training. And the stakes are far higher as well. 

Its one thing to have a rug smell of urine, a whole nother thing to deal with possible severe injury or death.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDs rarely kill people. I think that in a 20 year period, GSDs were responsible for 17 deaths nationwide. That is a really, really small number, and I think most were babies that got killed, so I really have a hard time with the idea of the dog killing you or someone else. 

When was the last time you heard of a shepherd killing someone? Really? 

Someone once told me that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing and expecting a different result. If you have a dog that bites, and you do not change what you are doing with the dog, it will most likely bite again. But that does not mean that if you change your leadership style, and train the dog, you cannot work through it. Maybe you can, maybe you cannot. Maybe it is worth it to try, maybe it makes more sense to put the dog down. 

The whole thing about training, is not training the dog not to bite, but building the bond so that 1, you can read the dog better and understand the body language, and the circumstances that are likely to produce an incident, and 2, the dog builds confidence in you, himself, and external things, and is less likely to go right to the bite. Training is a big deal. It cannot put solid nerves into a scaredy dog, but it can reduce the likelihood of incidents by a combination of decreasing stress of ordinary thing, and increasing awareness on the part of the owner. 

House training may be a training issue, but one must increase their awareness of the dog's body language/behavior in order to get the dog where it needs to be when it needs to be there. I would be shocked if fewer dogs lose their home due to problems with house training than do due to aggression issues. So it is a big deal.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I talked to Best Friends once about the possibility of taking a dog with a single bite - animal control and the legal system did not allow the owners to keep the dog. Best FRiends is the same as any other rescue in terms of liability - they cannot afford to take in animals with bite history. Even if a staff member gets bitten and they get sued, they would have to close their doors. I have no idea wherevthe myth of sending biting dogs and aggressive animals to Best Friends comes from.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Because alot of Vicks dogs got sent there, and there have been vicious dogs sent there because judges have given the dogs death sentences and it was either Best Friends take them or they would have been put down. However, this was years ago, and things have changed since then, the costs have gone up and its harder to just take in animals for nothing. They have taken many many animals, not just dogs and care for them, and like all rescues, people just want to dump unwanted dogs on them instead of taking responsibility. If your dog is vicious, and bites and you can't control it or don't feel safe with it, euthanize it at your expense, don't pawn the responsibility on someone else figuring someone else will take care of it.


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Does it matter how many shepherds have killed and the likelyhood ? They still can, like any larger dog. 

Besides just the potential of serious damage from a bite/mauling is enough to worry about. A friend of mine has a awful scar on her face from a single quick snap a Dachshund delivered. There is nerve damage, too. The potential of serious injury is far greater from a large dog that bites severely.

I really don't think playing russian roulette with ones loved ones is advisable. But again, every one has their own opinion, but thats all they are. The OP has to do what is right for them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it DOES matter. Your kid can get killed riding a horse or going swimming. But we still let them because the odds of that happening are not that great. And impressing over and over again how shepherds can KILL you, I think that is irresponsible of me to just let that pass, because you have a far greater chance of being struck by lightning twice than being killed by a GSD. Bitten, yes, you can be bitten. GSDs rarely kill people because they stop generally short of killing.

ETA: a toy dog killed a baby once, so I suppose you should not really say any large dog, just any dog.


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Yes, you are right. Horses can be dangerous. Any dog can kill, etc etc

So WHY would one add to this risk hundredfold with hanging on to a proven dangerous dog ? Unless one is a person that can say without a doubt that one can keep that dog under 100% control 100% of the time. And noone else would EVER have access to this dog. 

I feel this has progressed to nitpicking now and the same points have been made over and over.

I wish the best to the Original Poster and hope everything will work out one way or another. Good luck !!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Vick's dogs were dog aggressive, not necessarily people aggressive. They came with large funds which allowed for special measures in terms of training and housing. That kind of publicity brings in a lot of donations which the average dogs won't receive.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, it all comes down to education and taking responsibility for whatever you do. 

If it comes down to it, I much rather be hit by a car than mauled by a dog or loosing a finger by a horse (you wouldn't believe how many horses bite off fingers), drowning, struck by lightnings or knowing that my horse just went up and will fall over, killing me. 

At least I've got handson knowledge that you don't even feel the hit. Everything blacks out and you don't feel anything, hear anything, know anything. It's just over. 

So ya... everything can kill you. You can walk out of the house and a plain is falling right onto you. You can walk over the street, get hit by a car. You drive down the Interstate a Ghost Driver is coming towards you. Some psycho is on a killing spree. A burglar breaks into your home... 

The neighbors dog can bite you, it gets infected you die from blood poisening.... or you can simply die from a heart attach. 

That still doesn't change the fact that we all, every single one of us, has got to take responsibility for an aggressive dog if we own one and not just pass on the problem or dragging it out to the point where the inevidable happens giving me the chance to say: I TOLD YOU SO!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> Vick's dogs were dog aggressive, not necessarily people aggressive. They came with large funds which allowed for special measures in terms of training and housing. That kind of publicity brings in a lot of donations which the average dogs won't receive.


In a lot of states, dog aggressivness is just as bad as human aggressivness because laws state: *dangerous towards people or animals*


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## EllaBella (Dec 29, 2011)

Well since the OP has not been back to answer any questions, or make any additional comments, it looks like everyone is just bickering amongst themselves at this point. If the OP truly wanted help, you would think they would be all over this thread giving as much detail as possible and searching for any bit of information, but since it doesn't seem to matter to the OP, I wonder that it should matter to anyone else... I'm sure it'll matter when the OP is behind bars for an aggressive dog attack on someone else, but by then it's too late anyways. Do we really have to go through bantering back and forth over personal beliefs?

~Ella


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> In a lot of states, dog aggressivness is just as bad as human aggressivness because laws state: *dangerous towards people or animals*


Agreed. My point is that Best Friends may be able to accommodate dog aggressive dogs if they obtain donations for suitable housing and training. This is not the case for people- aggressive animals. So the notion that dogs that have bitten people can be dumped on Best Friends is just a misconception. They won't take a dog that has bitten a person and is a liability.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

No, they sure won't... On any given day, they have between 1700-2000 animals at the Sanctuary, thats alot of animals to try to keep going. I do remember the one story of the Akita and its death sentence and them taking the dog from the individual, but that was years ago and they no longer do that, like Rebel said, they don't take biting dogs or dangerous animals, including big cats. Had someone tell me they take big cats also(lions, tigers, etc) and I told them no about that.
A biting dog, for whatever reason, is the owners responsibility. Not the local rescue,(whom people dump biting dogs on but do not tell them its a biter)or just dumping on the street, or giving away on CL(such a great dog, just needs room to run and enjoy life).
I think alot of people are so afraid to ask to euthanize a dog because of biting issues , they are so afraid of what people will think, like some of the folks here that get all "I know better than you do, even if I don't live with the dog, find a trainer or behaviorist and fix it"or have just given so much to try to work with the dog, they are lost and try to get some help or even an "I understand why you feel you need to euthanize the dog" and then after lectures about being mean to kill the dog, they run from here. They feel down on themselves for "giving up" and keep the dog and try and then end up with a vicious attack on one of their family memebers or an outside person and get sued so they lose everything.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on euthanisia or training or whatever when it comes to dogs. Everyone has a chance to voice that opinion on others who come to the forum. But, maybe some need to work on the fact of acting all high and mighty about things and give an opinion that makes a person want to crawl under the carpet.
Me? I will not have a dog that bites a human for any reason(except an injury that causes the dog to bite while it is hurt and in pain). Have I put dogs down due to biting? You bet I have. And I would do it again. Does that make me mean or not a good dog owner? No, it just means my ideas of owning dogs in the past 50 years of my life is different than others. I love my dogs and would and have done anything to keep them alive, BUT when it comes to putting a biting dog in the same house as my family and grandkids, its not going to happen. I would rather take a dog to be euthanized with me there and know where the dog is, than to lie to a rescue and dump the dog off and then wonder how many more times has it bitten, how many times has someone kicked it or beat it for biting. I haver never had a dog of my own breeding(many different breeds over the years ) bite anyone. Yet I have bought dogs from big time breeders who have bitten and I have put down. I am different than some, I want my dog to be a part of my family, to go places and enjoy outings, not being worried that my dog will attack someone or have to be crated when people are around. Some people don't feel that way, and that is their choice, but my choice or someone elses choice should not be trashed upon.
Maybe a New Years resolution for this wonderful forum could be people not being quite so quick to make a poster feel terrible and not a good dog owner by jumping on them when they post questions about aggression or neutering or whatever. We all raise our dogs our way, we all have our own tolerances with our dogs, but should never make another dog owner feel bad about questions or decisions.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

EllaBella said:


> Well since the OP has not been back to answer any questions, or make any additional comments, it looks like everyone is just bickering amongst themselves at this point. If the OP truly wanted help, you would think they would be all over this thread giving as much detail as possible and searching for any bit of information, but since it doesn't seem to matter to the OP, I wonder that it should matter to anyone else... I'm sure it'll matter when the OP is behind bars for an aggressive dog attack on someone else, but by then it's too late anyways. Do we really have to go through bantering back and forth over personal beliefs?
> 
> ~Ella



what is the point of a forum to discuss things is people aren't...discussing.  This thread has actually been really good and there has been some information brought up I otherwise would known have known if people didn't "banter" lol.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Bantering is good, discussion is good, giving suggestions is good.

Making a person feel evil or bad for making decisions that fit them is not good. Telling people they should not own dogs because they don't allow biting dogs is not good. Insinuating that you are not a good dog owner for whatever reason is not good.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Bantering is good, discussion is good, giving suggestions is good.
> 
> Making a person feel evil or bad for making decisions that fit them is not good. Telling people they should not own dogs because they don't allow biting dogs is not good. Insinuating that you are not a good dog owner for whatever reason is not good.


Agreed. I love reading all the different training techniques, all the different opinions, and everyones different stories and experiences but it still makes me cringe when someone is just straight up mean. Calling another person, that you've likely never met and have no idea about their life/dogs other than what they say on this forum, a bad dog owner or telling them they have failed and shouldn't own dogs. Or as I read yesterday on another post, "that there is a severe flaw in your relationship with your dog" is straight up mean. 

Love the dog debates and the sharing of stories but there are gentler ways to correct those that need it. Good New Years resolution suggestion


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

sashadog said:


> Agreed. I love reading all the different training techniques, all the different opinions, and everyones different stories and experiences but it still makes me cringe when someone is just straight up mean. Calling another person, that you've likely never met and have no idea about their life/dogs other than what they say on this forum, a bad dog owner or telling them they have failed and shouldn't own dogs. Or as I read yesterday on another post, "that there is a severe flaw in your relationship with your dog" is straight up mean.
> 
> Love the dog debates and the sharing of stories but there are gentler ways to correct those that need it. Good New Years resolution suggestion


The thing is, if you put it on any forum, you will make yourself vulnerable to not only bashing but flat out abuse. Some posts can be so mean and destructive that it's almost borderline abuse. 

Let's see...

-horrible dog owner
- fell sorry for your dogs
- you shouldn't own dogs
- poor dogs, they should be taken away from you
- they'd be better off in a kill shelter
- you are the reason why so many dogs are in kill shelter
- you are a murderer and killer


Those are some of the comments I've received over the last four years for deciding of buying from a breeder, deciding to euthanize one of my dogs, to euthanize a 15 year old rescue and for talking about euthanizing my youngest due to severe ED and the Radius Curvus Syndrome. The worst comments I've received from people in the rescue world and pet people. You won't find many working dog people that would be opposed to putting a dog to sleep that is suffering on a daily basis. 

People can be mean. If you don't have a thick skin... you have to grow one.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> The thing is, if you put it on any forum, you will make yourself vulnerable to not only bashing but flat out abuse. Some posts can be so mean and destructive that it's almost borderline abuse.
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> ...


Agreed. Luckily, for the most part, the encouraging people with solid wisdom are present enough to shut down a lot of the mean comments.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Good post MrsK. Your reasons are the exact ones that make people not want to even post asking for help or a gentle ear, your examples of what happened to you are the exact things I said are such a shame. I myself have been raising showing and breeding dogs for over 40+ years, not counting having dogs as family pets growing up. I have worked for vets for over 35 years, trainers and handlers, police dog trainers, etc yet alot of times I post, I am treated like an idiot with no experience by posters that are younger than me and probably less experienced. I have ALOT of knowledge and experienced in me, yet why post when someone is going to say how stupid you are or who much they know just because I haven't posted 10,000 times to the forum. I read and keep to myself alot for just that reason. 
I think new people who want to ask things, read for a bit, see the nasty rude comments made by the "big" posters" and either decide not to post or just move on.
Pretty sad , when this is supposed to be a forum for everyone. I have a thick skin and it doesn't bother me anymore, but some folks don't have thick skins and really really want help.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Just one question why do you have to grow a thick skin?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

So you don't get upset when you say you are putting your dog down due to aggression and are told you are a dog killer. So you don't get upset and leave the forum when you are called a bad dog owner because you can no longer keep your sick dog alive and have decided to put to sleep. So you don't leave the forum because you are told you shouldn't own dogs because you can't walk your dog two miles a day. Because you are told your methods are stupid and wrong because you have taught your dog to not be food/toy protective and you can take food/toys away.
You have to be able to ignore the rude nasty downgrading posts by the superior posters who feel they have the only answers.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Hey, I was told once (me and another girl) on another forum we should not own dogs because we fed Kirkland Signature food from Costco!
Said if we could not afford a "quality food" we shouldn't own dogs 

And yet breeders I know feed Kirkland or Diamond Naturals, and just about every rescue I know of (who doesn't get mass food donations) go with Kirkland as well.


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## adas (Nov 22, 2008)

In my very little GSD experience I know that he is doing a certain behavior (biting in this case) because "historically" that is what he does or responds with when his master does a certain thing. Or maybe he is wanting something and has learned and knows if he bites he will get your quick attention. (wants some treat, like a spoil child, wants to go out and pee more often as maybe it is more painful to hold it in since he is older now, -- because historically he knows it is NOT an option to pee in the house, because that is what he has been taught and that is what HE DOES). I would try and figure out what is setting him off. But of course take the more experienced advice here in this thread.

francis


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> So you don't get upset when you say you are putting your dog down due to aggression and are told you are a dog killer. So you don't get upset and leave the forum when you are called a bad dog owner because you can no longer keep your sick dog alive and have decided to put to sleep. So you don't leave the forum because you are told you shouldn't own dogs because you can't walk your dog two miles a day. Because you are told your methods are stupid and wrong because you have taught your dog to not be food/toy protective and you can take food/toys away.
> You have to be able to ignore the rude nasty downgrading posts by the superior posters who feel they have the only answers.


I just read through this thread and I agree with everything you have said, wyominggrandma. 

All any of us can share are our own experiences and opinions. Let the OP's take from those what they want and forget the rest. 
The problem is that their are too many who believe their way is the only way.
I'm old enough to remember when dogs were pretty much all trained on choke chains and kids were spanked.
I'm not suggesting that we go back to that but I think in some cases we have gone too far the other way.
There are too many kids and dogs that could use as Cesar would say."rules boundaries and limitations".
We all do what we think is best for our own dogs.
I don't need some forum expert telling me I shouldn't own dogs because I don't raise them their way.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Housebreaking and peeing in the house is a training issue. It has nothing to do with the dogs temperament. Simply with its training and trainability.


On a side note ... not necessarily true. What about submissive urination? That is all about the dog's temperament. Although I'd prefer that as a fear reaction than biting, to be honest ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Hey, I was told once (me and another girl) on another forum we should not own dogs because we fed Kirkland Signature food from Costco!
> Said if we could not afford a "quality food" we shouldn't own dogs
> 
> And yet breeders I know feed Kirkland or Diamond Naturals, and just about every rescue I know of (who doesn't get mass food donations) go with Kirkland as well.


I feed Diamond. It is a four star dog food and mine are thriving on it. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. As a matter of fact I think it's a great alternative.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I can tell you my dogs appreciate their food and what's more, if I chose to feed Atta Boy, so my dogs did not starve, I'm not a bad owner unworthy of owning pets. My dogs would eat Ol' Roy if they had to, and I can guarantee you they are happy to be here and happy to be alive, since most were at immediate risk of euthanasia prior to coming here.

OT, I know - but goes to show you how people's mentality can be on these forums. Like others pointed out, if you're not doing things _their_ way, you are a crappy owner and always will be. 

Dog profile for Rest in Peace, Yaeger, a male German Shepherd <-- cannot argue with that - poor kibble fed guy (he had a lot of vaccines, too, almost yearly before they changed protocols - gasp!!!)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey, haven't we all been nasty at some point? I know that I can come across as rude and cold and neither of us ain't angels.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh gosh no. 
I'm never that way!!!

:rofl:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh, and one more thing about the Rescue stuff. With surrendering to a Rescue or a Shelter... 

In the Rescue world, unless you died and even then there are nutts out there saying "Why didn't that person make arrangements." there just NEVER is a good enough reason to surrender a pet, at all. 

That is one reason why I never let go of Judge. No way in **** was my dog going to pop up on facebook with the wording: _His owner dumped him because she didn't want to pay for the medical bills. _


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## EllaBella (Dec 29, 2011)

LoL, Yes, bantering is good,debating is good, but not when every post you're reading says the SAME things over and over again... it's ridiculous and childish. But whatever, ya'll go right ahead.

~Ella


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I hear a lot of complaining about others by some members, however, i have seen and read some of the posters who feel that they have been treated unfairly on the board have also been really nasty to others and attacked others on occasions. It was not any less opinionated or mean than those posting in this thread. I guess what goes around comes around.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> I hear a lot of complaining about others by some members, however, i have seen and read some of the posters who feel that they have been treated unfairly on the board have also been really nasty to others and attacked others on occasions. It was not any less opinionated or mean than those posting in this thread. I guess what goes around comes around.


Hey, just like I said, we've all have been nasty at one point or another. However, I've never called anyone a dog killer, never said that I wish their dogs were taken away or that they would be ever off without them. 

I did recently say on the Mayors/Watertown banning topic to somebody "please don't get a dog" because he/she does not own a dog at this point and I can't understand for the world how anyone, with that opinion can actually think about getting a dog but ultimately it's the persons decision if they do or don't and I can't do anything it. So I leave it at that and left the topic. I know I can be opinionanted, judgemental and sometimes come across as cold, too rational and rude. But there is a point where you stop and that is when it' about the one thing we love the most: OUR DOGS

I would never tell anyone that their dogs have a ****ty life because "this or that" person owns them. If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that we all love our dogs. Even if we have to make the unpopular decision to take them to the vet and PTS. It doesn't mean that we don't love them. Sometimes it's because we love them that we don't want them to see suffer on a daily basis. That we don't want them to see limping and putting themselves in an unhealthy state of mind, yelping because they barely can put pressure on their hips and elbows or whatever else is going on and all that despite the painkillers or because we don't want to see our loved ones hurt by the dog. While we love our dogs with all our heart, our loved ones should always come first. When it's between an aggressive dog and my husband , my husband will always come first. He doesn't have the same experience with dogs I have, so it is my duty to make sure that we don't have an unpredictable dog in the house. Now if he'd challenge me to get rid of all my pups, it'd be a totally different story. 

I think we all should take a good look at ourselves first.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I remember you called selzer all kinds of things when she lost the puppies. You were extremely nasty and personal.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> I remember you called selzer all kinds of things when she lost the puppies. You were extremely nasty and personal.


And your point is? Didn't I just say in the past posts, that we ALL (that includes my personal self) have been nasty and rude at some points and that not anyone is an Angel? 

I know what I did and I have no problems admitting to it. Do you?


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

Dear Moderator...can you step in please?


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

law1558 said:


> Dear Moderator...can you step in please?



The notify button gets ahold of them easier I believe


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

being a mod here, I suggest if no one has anything constructive to say about the original post to not say anything at all  

Looks like the OP has left the house, or is to intimitated to come back and post, which I can't say I blame them, so why not just keep it on topic okay?


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

*To moderator....*

Thank you


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no problem


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK if BF no longer takes dogs with bite histories, why does it reference one in the solicitation that I received last week? I think there is some misinformation either on the board or in their documentation. I would give them a call if I were facing this decision rather than accept what others have been told.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I just have simple question, why is there such a need/want to keep a dangerous dog alive? Assuming this is a temperment issue and won't get solved, why would you dump this dog at a rescue that would take it? So it can live out the rest of its life in a kennel, and the rescue will pour hundreds upon hundreds of dollars into a dog that will ultimately die there, all the while turning down dogs that might have a chance to get adopted but instead will be PTS at some animal control somewhere?

I'm in the boat of this dog should've never been allowed to bite for the 3rd time, barring any extraneous circumstances (like abuse). With what was posted by the OP, looking at those facts and not trying to assume others, IF IT WERE ME, I would've PTS the dog a long time ago.


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