# Warning Sign?



## Steelhead

If the breeder says you cannot pet the parent of a potential puppy isnt that a warning sign? The breeder said we could look at dad but not interact or pet him because the dog may bite. That doesnt sound right. A stable good tempered dog shouldnt bite especially if the owner is right there.

Just checking.


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## Freestep

Yeah, I would take that as a warning sign. Either the dog wasn't socialized, or he has an incorrect temperament. Either way, it's a red flag for the breeder.


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## shannonrae

I would consider that a red flag. When I was looking for my pup friendly parents was a requirement. I had to meet and interact with BOTH parents. When I found a breeder I was interested in I made a date to meet the parents, the pups were only 3 weeks old at the time. I did not even want to look at the pups until I had met Mom and Dad.


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## LaRen616

It depends. 

If the dog is friendly towards family members and people that he knows but not friendly towards strangers I dont really see an issue.

As long as aggression isn't passed on to his puppies, I have no problem with it. I am pretty sure I know the male is question, I have met him and stood about 5 feet from him, he did not growl, bark or bare his teeth at me. I watched him interact with the breeder and his wife and he was very sweet and affectionate. 

I would also like to add if it is the male I am thinking of, I would LOVE to get an offspring from him and I actually know alot more people that want one of his puppies as well. 

Get the whole story about the male before judging, there is more to it than you think.


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## Kittilicious

Yep, big red flag.


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## codmaster

Steelhead said:


> If the breeder says you cannot pet the parent of a potential puppy isnt that a warning sign? The breeder said we could look at dad but not interact or pet him because the dog may bite. That doesnt sound right. A stable good tempered dog shouldnt bite especially if the owner is right there.
> 
> Just checking.


 
Run, do not walk to the nearest exit! Do not even consider this breeder. That is ridiculous and you should not even consider it - a BIG problem waiting to happen!


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## msvette2u

> As long as aggression isn't passed on to his puppies,


And how would one know, until the puppies got older? Genetic fearfulness is tough to override. 

I would also take it as a warning sign. Any GSD should be able to accept people into it's home unless the people are wearing ski masks and toting guns.


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## LaRen616

msvette2u said:


> And how would one know, until the puppies got older? Genetic fearfulness is tough to override.
> 
> I would also take it as a warning sign. Any GSD should be able to accept people into it's home unless the people are wearing ski masks and toting guns.


Because the dog I am thinking of has puppies that are 3+ years old and have no aggression issues.


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## msvette2u

While that's great and all, the sire is still 1/2 of the equation. Perhaps they've been lucky so far.


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## Freestep

LaRen616 said:


> If the dog is friendly towards family members and people that he knows but not friendly towards strangers I dont really see an issue.


A proper temperament includes discernment--the dog may not be "friendly" toward strangers, but should not be apt to bite guests in the owners' escort. If this is a genetic temperament issue, you don't want it passed on. If it is a socialization issue, it leaves you to wonder WHY the breeder did not socialize the dog, and what else is the breeder not doing?


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## Lilie

If the stud has been titled then I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I think there is a big difference between a dog that is controlled by the breeder and a dog that is locked away in a kennel because of aggression issues. 

I'd like to also add that if I were a breeder and I had strangers coming to my house to look at puppies I wouldn't think it prudent of me to say that my male or female are waggy butt dogs that loves everyone. I might as well give them a key to my house. 

If the dog has proven himself in the field, why does he also have to a greeter at Walmart?


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## KZoppa

I guess it would be a matter of opinion. Did the breeder state why you could look but not touch? If its the breeder Lauren is talking about, then I can guess the sire you're speaking of. I honestly would love to have a pup from the sire I believe Lauren is talking about. Ask the breeder WHY you can see him but not interact with him. There may be a logical reason for it, there may not. You never know until you ask but in the end its up to you to decide though like most, you may prefer to walk away and go with a different breeder.


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## KZoppa

Lilie said:


> If the stud has been titled then I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I think there is a big difference between a dog that is controlled by the breeder and a dog that is locked away in a kennel because of aggression issues.
> 
> I'd like to also add that if I were a breeder and I had strangers coming to my house to look at puppies I wouldn't think it prudent of me to say that my male or female are waggy butt dogs that loves everyone. I might as well give them a key to my house.
> 
> *If the dog has proven himself in the field, why does he also have to a greeter at Walmart*?


 
agree.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> A proper temperament includes discernment--the dog may not be "friendly" toward strangers, but should not be apt to bite guests in the owners' escort. If this is a genetic temperament issue, you don't want it passed on. If it is a socialization issue, it leaves you to wonder WHY the breeder did not socialize the dog, and what else is the breeder not doing?


This.


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## cassadee7

I visited several breeders. I had a possible sire and dam picked out for my puppy. When we walked up to the dam with the breeder right beside us, she was very aggressively barking and snarling. Even when the breeder was petting her and told us we should not pet the dog as she could not be trusted not to bite. And the dog would NOT stop barking/snarling at us. That led me to go with not only a different dam but a different breeder entirely, because to ME a dog who is protective should also settle and stop trying to aggress at a visitor if the owner is right there telling them the visitor is ok. And, to me, it worried me that perhaps the breeder would not match us with the right puppy since they knew I had five kids and needed a stable calm temperament. So I went elsewhere.


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## jennyp

No way, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. It's a common for GSDs to be aloof toward strangers so I get it if the dog is standoffish but the fact that he might BITE? No, something isn't right. I'd be looking for parents who are confident and tollerant toward people. If they aren't affectionate with you that's fine but a confident dog shouldnt bite if there isn't a threat.


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## msvette2u

To me, there is a difference between a dog who is in fact a "waggy butt" when you're there, but if a stranger comes when you're not home and attempts to gain entry, that's a problem and the dog should correctly see it as a threat, even if that stranger had been there earlier in the day. 
Discernment is the word 



> I wouldn't think it prudent of me to say that my male or female are waggy butt dogs that loves everyone. I might as well give them a key to my house.


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## Freestep

Lilie said:


> If the dog has proven himself in the field, why does he also have to a greeter at Walmart?


The only scenario I can think of that wouldn't make me uncomfortable, is if the dog is a former PD. A police dog is trained to continue showing suspicion/aggression to strangers even when already in police custody, should the suspect attempt to escape or fight the officers. 

In that case, I wouldn't hold it against the dog or the breeder, as the dog's behavior is a product of his training.

A dog titled in sport? I am not sure if I would extend the pass. Sport and Law Enforcement are different types of training; sport dogs are not trained to show aggression toward strangers the same way.


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## Lilie

msvette2u said:


> To me, there is a difference between a dog who is in fact a "waggy butt" when you're there, but if a stranger comes when you're not home and attempts to gain entry, that's a problem and the dog should correctly see it as a threat, even if that stranger had been there earlier in the day.
> Discernment is the word


I would use my common sense. If the dog is titled then I would throw that into the equation. If the dog is tied to a tree and has no field work ever done, then I wouldn't even get out of my car. 

My dog is aloof. When we are off property he will allow strangers to greet him. But when strangers come to my house he is much more engaged. 

If I went to a breeder's home and the breeder couldn't control the dog, that is totally different. Again, I wouldn't get out of my car. I'd wave and drive away. 

But if I went to a breeder's home and the sire was there and the breeder said, "Please do not touch him" (and the dog was proven in the field) I'd not consider that a red flag.


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## NarysDad

I would go out and meet this dog to see in person and find out what he is about rather than to make assumptions. Things to think about also are whether there are offspring of his there at the breeders kennel to see in fact if he passes this onto his pups. But to make assumptions about a dog or his breeder before actually meeting them is rather silly


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## cliffson1

opcorn:


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## msvette2u

> If the dog is titled then I would throw that into the equation.


Pardon me if it's off topic for this post, but we've had like 1500 threads explaining why/how dogs get titled and how titles mean jack when it comes to breeding. They can hustle a dog through training to get a title so they can earn big bucks (that's what those threads said), so basically titles apparently are almost as worthless as the paper they are written on!?
And some of those dogs doing Sch on the vids (the "show lines") were painful to watch.


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## LaRen616

I do not believe that titles are everything.

Titles can be a plus but I would still and did buy a puppy with untitled parents and I would do it again and again and again.

If a breeder knows what he/she is doing, knows their dogs, bloodlines, what dog goes best with another dog, stands behind their dogs, tells you the honest truth and knows what they are talking about then I will support them. 

My puppy is perfect, although most of my friends and family have low tolerance for puppies and aren't in love with her right now, I still recieve nothing but compliments about her and her personality from them and others. She is EXACTLY what I had in mind, my breeder couldn't have made a better match. I would 100% stand behind her breeder and I most definitly will continue to speak to him almost daily and get another puppy from him in the future. He is my friend, he is there for me and my puppy, I trust him, I respect him and I have seen him help others when it doesn't even benefit him, THAT is a GREAT breeder IMO, no titles needed.


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## Lilie

msvette2u said:


> Pardon me if it's off topic for this post, but we've had like 1500 threads explaining why/how dogs get titled and how titles mean jack when it comes to breeding. They can hustle a dog through training to get a title so they can earn big bucks (that's what those threads said), so basically titles apparently are almost as worthless as the paper they are written on!?
> And some of those dogs doing Sch on the vids (the "show lines") were painful to watch.


IMO - if a dog has gone through all of the training it takes to earn a title or even a personal protection trained dog, or a PD dog or a retired service dog (if in fact it was still intact) would have to have had some sort of off site socialization for it to succeed in the area it was trained for. 

If the sire has offspring that is successful in the field that I was interested in, or even if they were friendly pets, then I would also throw that into the equation. 

A sire that is used as show stock or working stock gives me the advantage of researching it's offspring and finding information regarding the behavior issues (if any) of it's offspring.


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## Steelhead

Hi - Thanks for the opinions. I just need to be extra cautious because I have a 5 year old and cant have a dog with any aggressive tendencies because if one of their friends or even parents gets in yard or walks outside without me I would not want the dog to bite anyone. 

Is a biting dog more socialization or genetics? or both?


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## JakodaCD OA

well I would wonder how old her puppies are?? Is she a protective momma with strangers??


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## Lilie

Lilie said:


> IMO - if a dog has gone through all of the training it takes to earn a title or even a personal protection trained dog, or a PD dog or a retired *service* dog (if in fact it was still intact) would have to have had some sort of off site socialization for it to succeed in the area it was trained for.
> 
> .


I actually meant a retired military dog..not a service (for the handicapped) dog.


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## Freestep

Steelhead said:


> Is a biting dog more socialization or genetics? or both?


It is very much both. Any dog can bite given the right circumstances, but a GSD will probably do it quicker than, say, a Golden.


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## Good_Karma

I do not think it is an unreasonable expectation to want to be able to pet either parent, especially if the owner/breeder is right there and can tell the dog that you are "okay." I don't think a dog who cannot be petted (at least tolerate it, if not enjoy it) in this situation by a stranger is really breeding material. Niko would not tolerate this well, and I would be in full agreement with the statement that he should not be bred (and he won't be!).


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## Jack's Dad

Steelhead said:


> Hi - Thanks for the opinions. I just need to be extra cautious because I have a 5 year old and cant have a dog with any aggressive tendencies because if one of their friends or even parents gets in yard or walks outside without me I would not want the dog to bite anyone.
> 
> Is a biting dog more socialization or genetics? or both?


My dog Jack is very laid back and is fine with people. Having said that I can't guarantee people wandering in or out of *his* yard. Kids can excite dogs and adult parents walking in are an intruder unless I'm right there. If I'm there he is fine.

You need to ask the breeder why? They may not want that particular dog all that friendly for a number of reasons. Then talk to someone or put the breeding on here so you can find out about the dogs genetics and tendencies. There are possible liability issues and depending on what training and the purpose of their male they may not want that risk.

If you want a fairly risk free dog I would consider other breeds.


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## Freestep

About 15 years ago, I went to a breeder's place whose male could not be touched by strangers--but he had been fairly recently imported and there's no telling what his training had been like. He was a showline dog, and mean as all get-out. As he got older, he started biting his handler, and was eventually put down.

Long story short, a friend of mine had bought a male pup sired by this dog. He did have aggression issues. He bit a child in the face, was spectacularly DA, and would growl at his owner if she touched him the wrong way. The owner finally had him neutered (at first she wanted to "stud him out" ) and it made him much more managable, though he could never fully be trusted.


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## Lilie

To the OP: Remember you are the consumer. If you aren't comfortable with a breeder, then you should move on.


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## KZoppa

Well if the dog in question is the dog some are thinking, if memory serves, he is the property guard. It is his JOB to be the way he is. If my dog had the job of being property guard, I wouldnt want them to be all that friendly (thanks Andy for putting it that way). Especially with valueable dogs on the property and considering dog theft is steadily on the rise. 

Has anyone considered asking the breeder about references from past buyers who have pups sired by said sire to ask about the pups temperment? Just an idea.


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## N Smith

Steelhead said:


> Hi - Thanks for the opinions. I just need to be extra cautious because I have a 5 year old and cant have a dog with any aggressive tendencies because if one of their friends or even parents gets in yard or walks outside without me I would not want the dog to bite anyone.
> 
> Is a biting dog more socialization or genetics? or both?


It is both - but socialization is easier when you have a genetically stable dog.

Also, while you need to be able to have a dog that is good with house guests and kids, I would not expect a GSD to be ok with people coming onto my property while I am not there.

Even with socialization as a pup, practice and training, when the dog turns 2-3 years old, maturity will bring on a serious side. These dogs are amazing guard dogs because they can be so friendly when their owner says to be and the opposite when called upon. Asking a dog to make that decision without an owners present can end badly. Not saying that it is always the case, but the dog may allow 10 kids to come into your yard without you being present, then on the 11th kid decide its not ok. It would not be a situation I would want to leave my dog in, and definitely not a kid.

My rules when guests are over, is no one pets the dogs without permission and if we are going to be going back and forth to the back yard - the dogs are put away (Outdoor Kennels/crates).


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## Good_Karma

KZoppa said:


> Well if the dog in question is the dog some are thinking, if memory serves, he is the property guard. It is his JOB to be the way he is. If my dog had the job of being property guard, I wouldnt want them to be all that friendly (thanks Andy for putting it that way). Especially with valueable dogs on the property and considering dog theft is steadily on the rise.
> 
> Has anyone considered asking the breeder about references from past buyers who have pups sired by said sire to ask about the pups temperment? Just an idea.


But even so, if the owner is there, he should be able to tell the dog that this visitor is not a threat. If the dog is well trained and well adjusted, that should be enough to ease the dog's protective training and then the dog should be able to be petted. Isn't that what makes a good GSD? The ability to discern what is a threat and what is not, especially if the owner is there to say this person is okay? I get that the dog might not enjoy or seek out physical contact with a stranger, but the dog should be able to tolerate it if asked to. Otherwise, I don't think he should be breeding. JMO.


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## Dainerra

I know dogs that are like this, not because of any genetic issue with the dog but because of the training methods that were used. Remember, not all people use the same training methods that we do here in the US. Shoot, even in the US you will have people who train using short-cut methods or fear/aggressive methods.

If the dog is later owned by a good breeder who KNOWS the dog and the reasons behind that behavior, then no I wouldn't have a problem with it. Of course, that requires asking the BREEDER why, not people who don't know anything about the dog.

Shoot, it could be that the breeder doesn't allow people to pet the dogs because the neighbor kids took to throw firecrackers in the yard to scare the dogs and now this dog doesn't like people he doesn't know. Yeah, I just made that up, but to me it is a very legit reason.

ETA: to sum it up, I would take it as a reason to ask more questions. The answers would be your cue to either continue with this breeder or to walk away.


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## Liesje

Steelhead said:


> Hi - Thanks for the opinions. I just need to be extra cautious because I have a 5 year old and cant have a dog with any aggressive tendencies because if one of their friends or even parents gets in yard or walks outside without me I would not want the dog to bite anyone.
> 
> Is a biting dog more socialization or genetics? or both?


Sorry to be blunt, but these are German shepherds we are talking about. Why is the word "aggression" always used in such a negative tone? This breed is *supposed* to be strong, powerful, courageous and yes, aggressive! They are supposed to be protective of their people and their property. These are GSDs not Shih Tzus. 

If it's so important to have a GSD that tolerates anyone/anything then I would recommend looking for an adult so you have a full picture of the dog's temperament at maturity.

As for being able to pet the sire and dam, well personally I don't want a dog quite so sharp that I can't have a close look at it with the owner/handler present, but that's just me. I would never expect the dog to *want* to socialize with me. I have no idea what breeder or dog we are talking about.


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## VonKromeHaus

Excellent post Liesje!


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## doggiedad

what breed is fairly risk free???



Jack's Dad said:


> If you want a fairly risk free dog I would consider other breeds.


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## Liesje

doggiedad said:


> what breed is fairly risk free???


Breeds designed to primarily be companions rather than working dogs that possess traits that can be contrary to living in a home with a young family with people coming and going.


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## doggiedad

1>>>> depends on the training, socializing and the dog.

2>>>> maybe, maybe not.

3>>>> with the proper training.

4>>>> when we have parties the dog
is walking around freely. sometimes our friends
will make the dog jump on the sofa with them.
you can come and go in our yard when we have
a party with no problem. we wanted a well trained
and highly socialized dog so people can be around him
and pet him.



N Smith said:


> 1>>>> Also, while you need to be able to have a dog that is good with house guests and kids, I would not expect a GSD to be ok with people coming onto my property while I am not there.
> 
> 2>>>>> Even with socialization as a pup, practice and training, when the dog turns 2-3 years old, maturity will bring on a serious side.
> 
> 3>>>> These dogs are amazing guard dogs because they can be so friendly when their owner says to be and the opposite when called upon.
> 
> 4>>>>> My rules when guests are over, is no one pets the dogs without permission and if we are going to be going back and forth to the back yard - the dogs are put away (Outdoor Kennels/crates).


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## Steelhead

Liesje said:


> Sorry to be blunt, but these are German shepherds we are talking about. Why is the word "aggression" always used in such a negative tone? This breed is *supposed* to be strong, powerful, courageous and yes, aggressive! They are supposed to be protective of their people and their property. These are GSDs not Shih Tzus.
> 
> If it's so important to have a GSD that tolerates anyone/anything then I would recommend looking for an adult so you have a full picture of the dog's temperament at maturity.
> 
> As for being able to pet the sire and dam, well personally I don't want a dog quite so sharp that I can't have a close look at it with the owner/handler present, but that's just me. I would never expect the dog to *want* to socialize with me. I have no idea what breeder or dog we are talking about.


I have had a working line german shepherd. He was not agressive. If a person came in the yard he would not bite them and i wouldnt want him to. Would he have done anything had someone attacked me, I really dont know, we were never in that situation. A dog that is going to bite someone that comes in your yard is a liability, that I dont want. The fact a dog is a german shepherd is enough of a deterent. I also want to do therapy work and there is a program where kids read to dogs that I also want to do. If you need a dog that is going to bite someone that comes in your yard you need to move not get a german shepherd.


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## sparra

Steelhead said:


> The breeder said we could look at dad but not interact or pet him because the dog may bite. That doesnt sound right..


Sometimes I get so confused by the advice given on this forum
If the above is indeed what was said, I think that is pretty self explanatory isn't it? "No you can't pet the dog even if I am there cause it will bite you"
I don't know how many threads I have seen about looking for a puppy and how many times it is recommended "GO MEET THE PARENTS it is really important to "MEET" the parents" Then someone comes on and says "I want to MEET the parents but I can't cause dad will bite me" and people actually um and ah as to whether this is a problem .

I wouldn't touch a pup form a dog that would bite me even with the owners present with a barge pole.....


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## Jack's Dad

doggiedad said:


> what breed is fairly risk free???


Bassett Hounds.


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## sparra

Jack's Dad said:


> Bassett Hounds.


 Our neighbours have a bassett......he is adorable!!!


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## Liesje

Then to me this is a no-brainer. If the OP needs a dog that is social and accepting of everyone, why not stack the deck in their favor and only consider breedings of dogs that already possess those traits?

No one can explain the stud dog's behavior besides the owner/handler.

When I got Pan I wanted a dog that was not sharp and not suspicious. I got to meet, touch, and observe (off leash, not in a kennel) both parents. If anything, Pan is a little more social than I like but better safe than sorry.


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## Jack's Dad

doggiedad said:


> 1>>>> depends on the training, socializing and the dog.
> 
> 2>>>> maybe, maybe not.
> 
> 3>>>> with the proper training.
> 
> 4>>>> when we have parties the dog
> is walking around freely. sometimes our friends
> will make the dog jump on the sofa with them.
> you can come and go in our yard when we have
> a party with no problem. we wanted a well trained
> and highly socialized dog so people can be around him
> and pet him.


I can do that with Jack too. 

Do you think your dog would be so friendly when you are not at home?
If I'm not home I don't guarantee what Jack would do.

The thing with GSD's is their potential for real damage if they do decide they don't want you in their yard. If a Shih Tzus bites you, then you can launch it across the yard with your foot. No way with an angry GSD.

GSD's are third on the most dangerous dog list but don't even appear in the top ten for aggression.


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## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> Bassett Hounds.


I disagree. DH's cousins had some that would come right up on our porch and growl at us. 

Go with a collie or a golden retriever or a full grown rescue if you want to guarantee that you know what the temperament is.


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## sparra

Liesje said:


> Then to me this is a no-brainer. If the OP needs a dog that is social and accepting of everyone, why not stack the deck in their favor and only consider breedings of dogs that already possess those traits?


Yeah...good point. If the OP wants something a bit more, shall we say, "mellow" then maybe this isn't the right litter for them.


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## CookieTN

Well no breed is free of the possibility of aggression or differing temperaments. Less likely with some breeds, yeah. Labs were considered the best, or one of the best, dogs with children, but since they're so popular (which means more BYBs and ignorant/irresponsible owners) there's more Labs with less-than-ideal temperaments than there used to be.


As to the original question...I'd probably avoid the breeder over this, but I'd also inquire further and see what they had to say.


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## sparra

Jax08 said:


> a full grown rescue if you want to guarantee that you know what the temperament is.


That's a good idea


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## 1sttimeforgsd

When we went to get our pup it was about a 1/4 mile up a dirt road onto private property. As we got out of our truck a very large bi-color shepherd appeared and with a very low growl from him we stopped in our tracks. About that time a head popped up from behind a parked car and the man said it's ok Sam. The dog turned and walked about 5ft away and laid down, that was our pups sire. No way in the world would I have petted that dog I was very intimidated by him, maybe because the only shepherd I had ever been around was my brothers.

I don't feel that the dog had bad temperment because he gave out a low growl, we were strangers and we were on his property, beside the owner was expecting us. Once his owner told him ok he walked away and laid down and the puppies were all over him trying to get a stick that he had in his mouth. He was not growling at them but he was curling his lip and all you could see was black gums and very large white teeth.


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## cliffson1

I have a DDR female that is eight and if you are in the yard with me she will tolerate you, but she DOES NOT want you to pet her. Very aloof. She has had 4 litters, (42 pups), at least 35 of them have gone to families, and not only no problems, but I get many many cards at holidays from owners of these pups. I have never bred her to another DDR dog and her pedigree does reflect good social aggression....but the nerve is good and she was bred to quality dogs. The point is I have seen many dogs that weren't the most social (for various reasons) that uneqivocally should be in the genepool. The breed has a wide spectrum of temperaments,(from 4 different type dogs), that vary from weak to strong, and soft to hard. And they all can appear in one litter. So if I was the OP and I liked the dogs but that was a concern, I would ask for some references of people who have dogs out of the dog that is not recommended for petting. If they give that to you then you can make a much more informed decision based on some reality as opposed to opinions.


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## Liesje

Great post Cliff. I think the OP should consult with the breeder and references. On this forum, we can only say how *we* would react, and even then it's only a reaction to that one dog in that situation without a complete picture. There are plenty of great dogs that don't always act as people would want or even how their pedigree might suggest. Even if this dog is known to produce social offspring, if the OP is really uncomfortably with it, then they should just move on rather than us convincing them it's OK, but if the OP is willing to get a more complete picture about the dog, ask the breeder. Again I don't know what breeder or dog people are talking about, but if being extremely tolerant of kids and enjoying the Ruff Reader dog job is really important to the OP, best to find a breeder with dogs whose offspring have been known to flourish in those situations. Even if this particular breeder/dog isn't a match, doesn't mean this is a bad dog or a bad breeder.


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## Jack's Dad

cliffson1 said:


> I have a DDR female that is eight and if you are in the yard with me she will tolerate you, but she DOES NOT want you to pet her. Very aloof. She has had 4 litters, (42 pups), at least 35 of them have gone to families, and not only no problems, but I get many many cards at holidays from owners of these pups. I have never bred her to another DDR dog and her pedigree does reflect good social aggression....but the nerve is good and she was bred to quality dogs. The point is I have seen many dogs that weren't the most social (for various reasons) that uneqivocally should be in the genepool. The breed has a wide spectrum of temperaments,(from 4 different type dogs), that vary from weak to strong, and soft to hard. And they all can appear in one litter. So if I was the OP and I liked the dogs but that was a concern, I would ask for some references of people who have dogs out of the dog that is not recommended for petting. If they give that to you then you can make a much more informed decision based on some reality as opposed to opinions.


Or let Cliff read the pedigrees on the pair that you are looking at to have a better idea of the positives or risks.


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## onyx'girl

It also depends on where those pups get placed. Not everyone is cut out to be a GSD owner.....and they are a breed that needs understanding and careful management.


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## chelle

Jack's Dad said:


> Bassett Hounds.





Jax08 said:


> I disagree. DH's cousins had some that would come right up on our porch and growl at us.


I've met about 7 or 8? Bassetts and *every single one* of them was mean, obnoxious, barky, snarly and/or a humper. The only saving grace was that they're easy to get away from.


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## Freestep

Jax08 said:


> I disagree. DH's cousins had some that would come right up on our porch and growl at us.


Yeah, I was going to say... a Basset Hound is about the last breed I'd recommend--a lot of them are biters.


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## onyx'girl

I worked at a home with a basset,Chumly was not friendly at all to people he didn't know.


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## Jack's Dad

Alright, already with the Bassett Hounds. I don't know a thing about Bassett Hounds. I just through it out there because they look absolutely nothing like a GSD.
It also wouldn't have made any difference what breed I suggested. Someone would have a story about Toy Poodles stealing neighborhood babies or Shih Tzus's who attacked an killed their 250lb. neighbor.


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## chelle

Jack's Dad said:


> Alright, already with the Bassett Hounds. I don't know a thing about Bassett Hounds. I just through it out there because they look absolutely nothing like a GSD.
> It also wouldn't have made any difference what breed I suggested. Someone would have a story about Toy Poodles stealing neighborhood babies or Shih Tzus's who attacked an killed their 250lb. neighbor.


hehehehe :laugh: You know, Shih Tzus's can be pretty viscious.... Ok sorry. Done.


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## Liesje

When I mentioned the breed differences I was not trying to draw anecdotal comparisons but look at the actual purpose for each breed. There *are* many breeds that exist to be companions, that is their purpose and their "job". Because of this they are much more likely to be social, accepting of strangers, good with kids, more mellow in nature, etc. Sure anyone can find an example of a terrible representative of each breeding attacking someone, that was totally not the point...


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## Cassidy's Mom

sparra said:


> I wouldn't touch a pup from a dog that would bite me even with the owners present with a barge pole.....


Me either. Aloof is fine. Protective of his property when the owner isn't present, fine. But not accepting of the presence of people even with the owner there, to the point of possibly biting? No way.


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## robk

A German Shepherd is a "fence with teeth." If the blood lines are solid and the dog is well trained, it could be just precaution. I personally wouldn't worry about it. I usually don't pet other people's German Shepherds. There is just something weird about it. Like it is taboo. Touch another person's German Shepherd and you almost deserve to get bit.


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## codmaster

robk said:


> A German Shepherd is a "fence with teeth." If the blood lines are solid and the dog is well trained, it could be just precaution. I personally wouldn't worry about it. I usually don't pet other people's German Shepherds. There is just something weird about it. Like it is taboo. Touch another person's German Shepherd and *you almost deserve to get bit*.


 
You can't be serious? Can you?

Have you ever heard of the GSD standard? Just curious?

In case you haven't ever heard of it, it says that a GSD should be "Allof, but APPROACHABLE".... 

Means that they should not bite if a friendly stranger tries to pet them with the ok of their owner! (I think!)

With your feeling, I am glad that you wouldn't pet my GSD!


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Sure anyone can find an example of a terrible representative of each breeding attacking someone, that was totally not the point...


I can find a terrible representative of any given breed, having been a vet tech and a groomer so long it seems like I always see the worst of everything.  The bitingest breeds in my experience have been:

Chow Chow
Rottweiler
Miniature Poodle
Cocker Spaniel
Springer Spaniel
Lhasa Apso
Basset Hound
Dalmatian
Scottish Terrier
Dachshund

The least bitey breeds in my experience have been

Golden Retriever
Toy Poodle
Labrador
Border Terrier
Spinone Italiano
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Afghan Hound

I am sure that GSDs, Pit Bulls, and Akitas should be on my most bitey list, but I haven't had a bad experience with these breeds personally.


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## Jack's Dad

Just couldn't resist putting a Bassett Hound in there, could you?


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## carmspack

as much as the prospective buyer has to get a sense of the breeder , the mating pair , the puppies, the breeder has to get a very quick read on the prospective buyer. He / she have to protect themselves and their animals , too. I remember way back when I had a visitor who was super yacky , kept telling me how they could charm even the meanest gsd and disarm them because the dog would "know" how much he liked them, the breed . This man knew no caution , very naive . So from standing beside the male and stroking the back of his head and neck, he swings in front and tries to lift the dogs front legs -- hey ! what are you doing? . The man wanted to have the dog stand on his hind legs with the paws planted on his shoulders so that the dog could get some loving . He was stopped -- the dog wiggled out of that kind of over close attention giving the man a queer look of disbelief . You don't know people and the mess they can get themselves in either . Some dogs would not have tolerated the feet being handled. People don't just "pet" they want to do the full armed neck embrace -- the get friendly goes way beyond .


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## msvette2u

chelle said:


> I've met about 7 or 8? Bassetts and *every single one* of them was mean, obnoxious, barky, snarly and/or a humper. The only saving grace was that they're easy to get away from.


You're kidding, right?
We've fostered a number of Bassets now, and not one as HA. Most weren't even DA. And it's a myth about them being lazy. Lazy, they are NOT. 
Dogs are a product of their environment and their owners, and Bassets were not bred to be aggressive, in fact, the opposite. 
Our last Basset (we just had to rehome due to her back injury-she needed to be an only dog  ) is such a love **** she has everyone in her new home wrapped around her paw and they :wub: her to pieces. The one before that (a very neglect senior) loved everyone he met and was the waggiest dog ever! And a pup between the two of them, again, sweet and loved everyone. Ever Basset we've fostered in fact, complete mush-balls!



> Me either. Aloof is fine. Protective of his property when the owner isn't present, fine. But not accepting of the presence of people even with the owner there, to the point of possibly biting? No way.


Ditto here.


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## qbchottu

I knew a well-known stud dog that went VA1, IPO3, KK1 and produced _LOTS_ of litters. However, only the owner/handler could get near it and visitors were not allowed to interact with him. Not being allowed to interact with the dog is not necessarily bad as long as the dog has the goods to back it up and brings something substantial to its progeny.


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## carmspack

bite statistics -- golden retrievers and labs bite -- lots - just ask any vet or vet tech , any dog bred for mass supply without consideration of temperament -- lots of golden retrievers and labs bred by non-breeders , back yard , family enterprise , or mix , wonder where golden doodles fit in? FATALITIES BY BREEDS OF DOG (ACF 2003)
A study at the University of Washington (Bandow, 1966) shows a comparison 
between the shares of breeds in bite incidents in comparison with the 
recorded numbers. In this study, no statistical insurance regarding the 
deviation of breed dispersion resulted. The breed statistic, moreover, is 
according to the testimony of the author, to be viewed with reservation. 
Breed association is based on testimony of the victim who can not always in 
an accident situation correctly identify the breed of attacking dog, or 
based on the testimony of the owner who does not always state the correct 
breed.

As for statistics used to support the idea that some breeds are more 
dangerous, the numbers are misleading, said Anthony Pobderscek of the 
University of Cambridge Veterinary School. "There's a problem getting 
records," he said. "Golden Retrievers bite, Labrador Retrievers bite, but 
don't get reported." Dr Wagner presented the results of a study on the 
"dangerous dog" laws of Germany earlier this week at the meeting of the 
International Society for Anthrozoology in Davis, Calif.
Although they look different, dog "breeds" have no more scientific basis 
than do "races" among humans, said canine researcher James Serpell of the 
University of Pennsylvania. According to RIECK (1977), the biting dog is typically male, younger than two years, and belongs to a working dog breed (e.g. Shepherd or Rottweiler), or is for instance a Cocker Spaniel, or a Chow Chow, and originates in mass breeding in which temperament or other desired qualities of a dog are not considered in breeding. The author quotes a statistic about deaths through dog bites. In 34 death cases in 1989 to 1990, 10 cases were caused by Nordic breeds like the Husky, Samoyed or Malamute, 10 further cases were caused by Pit Bull type (mix) dogs uncertain of positive identification. Seven deaths were caused by German Shepherds, 3 by Dobermans, 1 by a Rottweiler, and 4 by other breeds.

To claim one breed is more responsible for human fatalities is impossible. 
Some would chose to single out the Pit Bull , due to the fact there are 
estimated statistics and the type of dogs that resemble the Pit Bull are 
such a wide variety that we find Amercian Bulldogs, Boxers, and Mastiff's 
labeled as Pit Bulls. It is impossible to compare different breeds of dogs 
versus human fatalities.

The Washington Animal Foundation did a survey on human fatalities by dogs in 2001 and came up with these figures, Rottweiler (6); Labrador (2); 
Pomeranian (1); German Shepherd (2); Chow (1); Wolf-Hybrid (1); Akita (1); Doberman (1); Beagle (1); Presa Canario (2); Pit Bull (1); mixed breeds (6). When comparing these figures with the human fatalities from 1975-80 by Pickney & Kennedy, Traumatic Deaths from Dog Attacks in the United States, the report identified the following as responsible for human fatalities during the study period from May, 1975 to April, 1980: German Shepherd (16); Husky (9); St. Bernard (8); Bull Terrier (6); Great Dane (6); Malamute(5); Golden Retriever (3); Boxer (2); Dachshund (2); Doberman Pinscher (2); Collie (2); Rottweiler(1); Basenji (1); Chow-Chow (1); Labrador Retriever (1); Yorkshire Terrier (1); mixed and unknown breeds (15). One would question the accuracy of human fatalities by dogs from current reports and especially the statistics on the Pit Bull. When looked at from a more realistic point of view one would find Shepherds and other working dogs rate higher in fatalities. However, given the increasing population of dog breeds at any given time, it is impossible to compare one breed to another.

20% of deaths involve unrestrained dogs off the owner’s property, 70% involve 
unrestrained dogs on the owner’s property, and 10% involve restrained dogs 
on the owner’s property. Unrestrained dogs are responsible for a high number 
of dog bite reports and attacks to other animals. Over 30 breeds of dogs 
have been involved in 400 human deaths in a 30 year period.

In researching dog bite incident reports for the year 2000 in Pontiac 
Michigan, our Foundation found a high number of mixed breeds biting but no 
human fatalities. Chow Chows were the dogs biting unprovoked more than other breeds. We found a high percentage of teasing or tormenting of dogs which in turn caused them to bite. We found Sight Hounds responsible for deaths to other animals, yet the breeds you hear about in the media did not rate high. We find, because of the media attention focused on specific breeds such as the Pit Bull, that the real statistics are never brought to the attention of the general public or the politicians, which in turn does nothing to protect the safety of the public. This misinformation affects the political pressure concerning the passing of breed bans instead of focusing on passing strong dangerous dog laws that target the irresponsible owners of all breeds of dog.






Email Webmaster​All Rights Reserved. 2005. www.understand-a-bull.com - Breed Specific Legislation (BSL)​


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## NarysDad

Ok I think it is time to let the cat out of the bag as I have been watching this thread all day and the comments it has produced. I am the breeder in which this member was asking about my male Ghost. Ghost was trained here to protect the property from others from coming onto the property and trying to steal any of my other dogs as this had happened once when we had first moved here and I said that the next time they will be in for quite the surprise.

Ghost although the average visitor can't just walk up and pet him, there has been those that after he got to know them he was like a great big teddy bear. Although telling you all about his training he has never produced a pup that had any type of aggression toward others in fact my vet owns a daughter of his right now. Could this member come and walk up on him and not feel threatened, well I probably think they will think differently when meeting him. Would I be worried about what he produces as to putting a pup in a home with a small child? No!! 

I tell clients on the phone how he would be if he was out when they would pull up as I have had some clients get out of their cars and run right up to the dog or dogs without thinking and this thing I just don't want to happen. 

LaRen has been out to our place and has been able to get within feet of him while on a leash without a lunge or a growl. Is this behavior genetic? No as I have his father Narys here and has been known to mingle with my clients off leash without any type of issues.
I totally understand the concern of Steelhead and his wife Angela due to having a young child. Below is a picture of our Ghost along with pictures of 2 of his sons which are in homes with their families now.

But as most of you all know that when a pup goes into a home it's up the their new owner to keep the pup socialized and not the breeders fault if the said pup is 6 months old and decides to bite or be fearful of its surroundings


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## Jack's Dad

Thanks for straightening this out. 
Ghost is a beautiful dog. 
He is definitely not a Bassett Hound.
I hope theOP goes to see your dogs.


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## codmaster

NarysDad said:


> Ok I think it is time to let the cat out of the bag as I have been watching this thread all day and the comments it has produced. I am the breeder in which this member was asking about my male Ghost. Ghost was trained here to protect the property from others from coming onto the property and trying to steal any of my other dogs as this had happened once when we had first moved here and I said that the next time they will be in for quite the surprise.
> 
> Ghost although the average visitor can't just walk up and pet him, there has been those that after he got to know them he was like a great big teddy bear. Although telling you all about his training he has never produced a pup that had any type of aggression toward others in fact my vet owns a daughter of his right now. Could this member come and walk up on him and not feel threatened, well I probably think they will think differently when meeting him. Would I be worried about what he produces as to putting a pup in a home with a small child? No!!
> 
> I tell clients on the phone how he would be if he was out when they would pull up as I have had some clients get out of their cars and run right up to the dog or dogs without thinking and this thing I just don't want to happen.
> 
> LaRen has been out to our place and has been able to get within feet of him while on a leash without a lunge or a growl. Is this behavior genetic? No as I have his father Narys here and has been known to mingle with my clients off leash without any type of issues.
> I totally understand the concern of Steelhead and his wife Angela due to having a young child. Below is a picture of our Ghost along with pictures of 2 of his sons which are in homes with their families now.
> 
> But as most of you all know that when a pup goes into a home it's up the their new owner to keep the pup socialized and not the breeders fault if the said pup is 6 months old and decides to bite or be fearful of its surroundings


Just so you are aware, it IS at least half the breeders fault if the poor temperament is genetic based (as a LOT of it is!). Or if the breeder doesn't socialize the puppy while it is living with him/her.

So, if the dog was specifically trained to protect his property, that would constitute one more factor to consider in deciding if one wanted a puppy from a dog who could not be approached. 

I would never even consider such a puppy from such a dog. Esp. since I have considered puppies from true working K9's, PPD trained dogs, and a number of top competition ScH dogs - all of whom I could easily approach and pet and even play with (in the presence and with the consent of their owners!). All were friendly, although usually aloof and certainly approachable and certainly not a menace to anyone who dared to approach them!

Did you train your dog yourself or was he professionaly trained to be what amounts to a "junkyard" dog (that is how they are usually trained - to bite any stranger who comes onto their property). And that he is also trained to refuse any food thrown into his yard?

I assume that your property has a fence around it with "Do not Enter - Guard dog" type signes. And that the fence is unclimbable naturally.

Wow!


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## holland

I would go meet the dog-but I think it helps to read the standard my older female is DDR -she is aloof but while she may not get all cuddly with strangers she tolerates them-she is 100% trustworthy-some people she even kind of likes


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## msvette2u

While I can sympathize with you losing a dog to theft, I'd have just secured the dogs better, if possible, in a locked building.
A dog can easily be shot by someone determined to steal things.

Even police/patrol dogs can be approached if their handler says it's okay...


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## sparra

NarysDad said:


> Ok I think it is time to let the cat out of the bag as I have been watching this thread all day and the comments it has produced. I am the breeder in which this member was asking about my male Ghost. Ghost was trained here to protect the property from others from coming onto the property and trying to steal any of my other dogs as this had happened once when we had first moved here and I said that the next time they will be in for quite the surprise.
> 
> Ghost although the average visitor can't just walk up and pet him, there has been those that after he got to know them he was like a great big teddy bear. Although telling you all about his training he has never produced a pup that had any type of aggression toward others in fact my vet owns a daughter of his right now. Could this member come and walk up on him and not feel threatened, well I probably think they will think differently when meeting him. Would I be worried about what he produces as to putting a pup in a home with a small child? No!!
> 
> I tell clients on the phone how he would be if he was out when they would pull up as I have had some clients get out of their cars and run right up to the dog or dogs without thinking and this thing I just don't want to happen.
> 
> LaRen has been out to our place and has been able to get within feet of him while on a leash without a lunge or a growl. Is this behavior genetic? No as I have his father Narys here and has been known to mingle with my clients off leash without any type of issues.
> I totally understand the concern of Steelhead and his wife Angela due to having a young child. Below is a picture of our Ghost along with pictures of 2 of his sons which are in homes with their families now.
> 
> But as most of you all know that when a pup goes into a home it's up the their new owner to keep the pup socialized and not the breeders fault if the said pup is 6 months old and decides to bite or be fearful of its surroundings


Thanks for the explanation......I assumed it was you
Not that my opinion means much but I still wouldn't get a pup from your dog. When you said " *LaRen has been out to our place and has been able to get within feet of him while on a leash without a lunge or a growl"* as though that is some sort of accomplishment that did it for me. JMO which I think is what the OP was after.....opinions.


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## wyominggrandma

To the OP, go out and meet the dog, or get as close as allowed. Meet the dam. Meet the babies and possibly see and greet some from the sire. If you feel comfortable after actually seeing them, then get a puppy from Narysdad. If you don't feel comfortable, then go somewhere else. 
You are the buyer and will be the owner of the puppy . You have a child. We can all give opinions, including the breeder, but you have to make the ultimate choice for yourself and your family.
That being said, I have to agree with msvette comments about even police dogs can be approached if their handler says ok. I have been around lots of police dogs, either at the vet clinics where I have worked for 30 plus years or helping train police dogs with bite work. Never have I had to feel afraid of approaching one of them if the handler said okay. Even after working one with bites, getting knocked down, etc after it is done, the dog is just as happy to get pets from me as the handler. I have approached k-9 units on the street and petted their on duty dogs after the handlers have said ok. No growling, biting or attacking.
I understand the breeders explanation of why his dog is so aggressive, and I beleive he also wants his dog that way. To protect your property and other dogs by having a dog so aggressive that it can't even be touched when you are standing there to me is a bit overboard. Plus the fact it would be interresting to see what would actually happen if someone came on your property and was attacked, I believe in most states you can still be sued for a dog biting even a criminal on your property, by the criminal.
To the OP, my feelings on this might be a bit different than others on this forum. I don't believe a dog should bite for any reason, so would not be comfortable getting a puppy from a breeder who feels its okay to bite or attack even with them standing there.
Good luck with your choice.


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## wyominggrandma

Before I get attacked because I said dogs should not bite, and then saying I have trained police dogs, what I meant was assisting officers training their dogs for bite work, is totally different than the general public with their family pets who bite and forgiving and making excuses why its okay for their dogs to bite.
Sparra, I got the same vibe that you did: the fact she was able to get a few feet from the dog without lunging and growling is a good thing?


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## abakerrr

Jack's Dad said:


> It also wouldn't have made any difference what breed I suggested. Someone would have a story about Toy Poodles stealing neighborhood babies or Shih Tzus's who attacked an killed their 250lb. neighbor.


I normally don't care enough to post, however.... LOL!! :happyboogie:


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## sddeadeye

To each their own. As a mother of a young child myself, I would pass up on a pup from that particular sire. That's not saying he can't or doesn't produce great pups, but to me it just seems too risky. I expect both parents of my pup to display the temperament, nerves, and drives I am looking for.


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## robk

codmaster said:


> You can't be serious? Can you?
> 
> Have you ever heard of the GSD standard? Just curious?
> 
> In case you haven't ever heard of it, it says that a GSD should be "Allof, but APPROACHABLE"....
> 
> Means that they should not bite if a friendly stranger tries to pet them with the ok of their owner! (I think!)
> 
> With your feeling, I am glad that you wouldn't pet my GSD!


Yes I have seen the German Shepherd standard, and no I would never pet your GSD. I think that people are too overly friendly with other peoples stuff. Its not right. There are certain things people should keep their hands off of; other peoples dogs (especially German Shepherds), guns, motorcycles, wives, ect.


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## GSDElsa

The bottom line is...if YOU are not comfortable with the situation, move on. It doesn't matter who the breeder is. Someone might find that quality in a dog of no concern. You obviously do find concern in it. There are plenty of breeders out there who have dogs who are sharp, suspicious, and "real" and you can still pet them. Simply look into someone else--it's as simple as that.


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## Kittilicious

GSDElsa said:


> The bottom line is...if YOU are not comfortable with the situation, move on. It doesn't matter who the breeder is. Someone might find that quality in a dog of no concern. You obviously do find concern in it. There are plenty of breeders out there who have dogs who are sharp, suspicious, and "real" and you can still pet them. Simply look into someone else--it's as simple as that.


Good advice. 
Just from my personal experience on what I'm dealing with now. My puppy wasn't "chosen", he chose us. He reminded us of a dog we had years ago and we weren't even looking for another dog, honestly. But we still got him. Problem is, his mom was a scared GSD. When we went to look at the puppies, she coward away from us and we figured she was nervous about us being around her puppies. (she wasn't as bad when she didn't have puppies) Looking back, I'd still take Knuckles, but I have a long road ahead of me with him. Had I been actually looking for a puppy, I wouldn't have picked one from that mother. He's already showing signs of being a fearful dog. I'm hoping his father's temperment comes through eventually, but I'm not waiting around for it. I have a recent thread about dealing with his fears and how I have to deal with it. Thank goodness for this forum, thats all I can say.


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## cliffson1

Bottom line is if you are not sure, and you wouldn't ask here if you were sure....save yourself the second guessing later on. A solid nerved german shepherd does excellent with small children 99% of the time. Because two parents are pettable or demonstrates the traits you desire is certainly no guarantee the pup will be that way. You are getting an eight week pup, most aggression issues with dogs are from mismanagement by owner during puppy stage or weak nerves. Getting a puppy from two parents that are pettable means very little to me....but you have to be comfortable with your decision and not second guessing.


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## NarysDad

cliffson1 said:


> Bottom line is if you are not sure, and you wouldn't ask here if you were sure....save yourself the second guessing later on. A solid nerved german shepherd does excellent with small children 99% of the time. Because two parents are pettable or demonstrates the traits you desire is certainly no guarantee the pup will be that way. You are getting an eight week pup, most aggression issues with dogs are from mismanagement by owner during puppy stage or weak nerves. Getting a puppy from two parents that are pettable means very little to me....but you have to be comfortable with your decision and not second guessing.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jonro

This might be a good time to mention BREEDERS RIGHTS, which appear to be nonexistent. I'm certainly not condoning having a dog so aggressive that he can't be approached any closer than several feet without imminent danger. However, I also do not think that dogs or any other animal should be treated like they are at a petting zoo! The public feels they have a right to do anything they want, I actually had one couple arrive unexpectedly while I was out feeding the horses and found them peering in the windows of my home like they're on some mission to uncover a crime. Opening out building doors and walking around the place as though they have a search warrant and are within their rights to invade my privacy. Being a breeder of dogs should not equal abdicating your right to privacy and being expected to make your bathroom a public restroom for entire families to parade through, spreading their germs. Most breeders have their dogs at home, these are not Walmart style dog stores or Car Dealership type enterprises. Therefore, if a person breeding dogs and offering puppies for sale is to have time to do the work required or go grocery shopping or take a shower, appointments are necessary and a locked gate even to prevent interlopers or thieves. These two things are supposedly "suspect", but are actually to allow a person to have SOME semblance of a private home, and safe environment, for human and dogs. Has anyone given consideration to puppy shoppers going from kennel to kennel and inadvertently spreading things such as parvo? The virus is viable for something like six months in the environment. So petting the mother dog with baby puppies is a risk not worth taking. Putting hands on any dogs on the place should be off limits to keep spread of disease from other kennels at minimum. That doesn't mean the dogs are dangerous, it just indicates a conciensous breeder wanting to keep their dogs healthy.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

First off I am in no way experienced as most on here. My take on this dog and I certainly can be wrong is 
1. He was not naturally aggressive or his temperment was not aggressive, he was trained to be this way.
2. He was given a job to do which was to be protective of his property, in so that means to not be a friendly dog. If he is trained to be friendly with some and not with others would that not be sending a mixed message to the dog. 
3. Owners know that if the dog bites someone they will have to deal with the situation. I do not blame them for doing what they feel they need to do to protect what is theirs. 
4. I have had things stolen from me that I worked hard for and cannot replace, thievery is up everywhere and everyone needs to take a stand to put a stop to it. If Ghost is their answer to deter a thief, I say go for it.

This is just my opinion, I am not saying it is the right one.


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## msvette2u

sparra said:


> Thanks for the explanation......I assumed it was you
> Not that my opinion means much but I still wouldn't get a pup from your dog. When you said " *LaRen has been out to our place and has been able to get within feet of him while on a leash without a lunge or a growl"* as though that is some sort of accomplishment that did it for me. JMO which I think is what the OP was after.....opinions.


This was my thought as well. Either something went wrong with the training or there's something wrong with the dog.
I too wondered about that and had a mental image of this dog on a huge thick leash, and LaRen inching closer and closer and everyone expecting him to rip her face off 

I don't think anyone here would expect to rush up to any one else's GSD and pet it. And in fact I think it is one breed of dog I'd avoid petting when out and about, unless someone specifically said "yes, go ahead, he/she is friendly". 
But to not even be able to get to more than "within feet" of it? Very odd.

That said, the breeder could just put the dog up and not even let it interact with the public so nobody knew he was that aggressive.


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## mysweetkaos

I sent you a message...but I will also say on here, I agree that it is not necessarily a problem. It wouldn't deter me if I met the mom, and had access to get ahold of owners of previous litters. Not all dogs like to be petted epecially by stangers. Also if this dog is their security I don't find a problem with them keeping him sequestered, maybe that is their way to make sure no one gets friendly with them and has ill intent of returning to help themselves. Just my opinion, but yes if you are second guessing look around and make sure you are comfortable, otherwise when that pup goes through it's very natural "landshark" stage you will be constantly questioning and uneasy which isn't good for anyone.

Ghost is beautiful by the way!


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## onyx'girl

Many times breeders don't even have the stud dog on premises for the prospective buyer to see. 

It is up to the buyer to research the lines, what the dog/breeder has previously produced and then decide if this is what they want to go with.

I know of a prospective breeding that the stud was not approachable by anyone other than the owner...these puppies were going to go to sport/working homes and the genetics on each side of the match were enough that all the pups were "sold" before the breeding even took place.


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## LaRen616

msvette2u said:


> This was my thought as well. Either something went wrong with the training or there's something wrong with the dog.
> I too wondered about that and had a mental image of this dog on a huge thick leash, and LaRen inching closer and closer and everyone expecting him to rip her face off
> 
> I don't think anyone here would expect to rush up to any one else's GSD and pet it. And in fact I think it is one breed of dog I'd avoid petting when out and about, unless someone specifically said "yes, go ahead, he/she is friendly".
> But to not even be able to get to more than "within feet" of it? Very odd.
> 
> That said, the breeder could just put the dog up and not even let it interact with the public so nobody knew he was that aggressive.


I didn't inch towards the dog, I stood there and he brought the dog over to me. He wagged his tail for Chuck and Cathy, jumped up for a hug, he was very loving towards them. I didn't make an attempt to go up to him, Chuck told me that he is does not like strangers, I respected that. I was within about 5 feet from the Ghost. He didn't stare at me, growl, lunge, bark, nothing, he ignored me. He sat there like a good boy while he got pet by Chuck and his wife and while we talked. 

I met Ghost's brother and father. I was in the yard with them both off leash. I pet them both, I watched them play. No problems whatsoever. I saw Ghost's daughter, I didn't interact with her because I was mainly there to hang out with Chuck and Cathy, play with the puppies (I ended up with my favorite female pup from that litter without knowing she was going to be mine) and meet a female that I wanted a puppy from, Tia, the female that is going to be bred with Ghost and that was the litter I was going to get a puppy from next year and if by some miracle I was able to take on another puppy I would JUMP on the chance to get a Tia/Ghost puppy.

I would also like to say that I am in love with Tia and I will get a Tia offspring for my next GSD.


----------



## NarysDad

onyx'girl said:


> Many times breeders don't even have the stud dog on premises for the prospective buyer to see.
> 
> It is up to the buyer to research the lines, what the dog/breeder has previously produced and then decide if this is what they want to go with.
> 
> I know of a prospective breeding that the stud was not approachable by anyone other than the owner...these puppies were going to go to sport/working homes and the genetics on each side of the match were enough that all the pups were "sold" before the breeding even took place.


Yes this is usually the case with Ghost's litters. I usually have all pups reserved before they are 2 weeks old. Here is his pedigree and then you will understand why his pups sell quickly

Ghost vonhausmeyer - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Lilie

I love Ghost. He speaks to my heart.


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## mysweetkaos

onyx'girl said:


> Many times breeders don't even have the stud dog on premises for the prospective buyer to see.
> 
> It is up to the buyer to research the lines, what the dog/breeder has previously produced and then decide if this is what they want to go with.
> 
> I know of a prospective breeding that the stud was not approachable by anyone other than the owner...these puppies were going to go to sport/working homes and the genetics on each side of the match were enough that all the pups were "sold" before the breeding even took place.


Good point...so if you have trust in the breeder and what they've shown to produce, I don't see a problem.


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## mysweetkaos

NarysDad said:


> Yes this is usually the case with Ghost's litters. I usually have all pups reserved before they are 2 weeks old. Here is his pedigree and then you will understand why his pups sell quickly
> 
> Ghost vonhausmeyer - German Shepherd Dog


I don't know anything about reading Pedigrees...but he is beautiful!


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## codmaster

Jonro said:


> This might be a good time to mention BREEDERS RIGHTS, which appear to be nonexistent. I'm certainly not condoning having a dog so aggressive that he can't be approached any closer than several feet without imminent danger. However, I also do not think that dogs or any other animal should be treated like they are at a petting zoo! The public feels they have a right to do anything they want, I actually had one couple arrive unexpectedly while I was out feeding the horses and found them peering in the windows of my home like they're on some mission to uncover a crime. Opening out building doors and walking around the place as though they have a search warrant and are within their rights to invade my privacy. Being a breeder of dogs should not equal abdicating your right to privacy and being expected to make your bathroom a public restroom for entire families to parade through, spreading their germs. Most breeders have their dogs at home, these are not Walmart style dog stores or Car Dealership type enterprises. Therefore, if a person breeding dogs and offering puppies for sale is to have time to do the work required or go grocery shopping or take a shower, appointments are necessary and a locked gate even to prevent interlopers or thieves. These two things are supposedly "suspect", but are actually to allow a person to have SOME semblance of a private home, and safe environment, for human and dogs. Has anyone given consideration to puppy shoppers going from kennel to kennel and inadvertently spreading things such as parvo? The virus is viable for something like six months in the environment. So petting the mother dog with baby puppies is a risk not worth taking. Putting hands on any dogs on the place should be off limits to keep spread of disease from other kennels at minimum. That doesn't mean the dogs are dangerous, it just indicates a conciensous breeder wanting to keep their dogs healthy.


Right - keep the mother and pups away from ALL human contact till they are at least six months old and THEN let them go to their new homes. thus we will continue the stereotype of the GSD!

But you will not introduce those nasty germs to your home! Heh! Heh!

Maybe you could just sell your puppies via the Internet and only sell them when you can ship them, thus avoiding any inadvertent personal contact with the puppy buyers at all.


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## wyominggrandma

I bred dogs for years, sometimes with my own studs or sometimes sent the bitch out. I always welcomed people to my home to view puppies, if they had been to other places or touched other puppies, I made sure shoes were taken off before they entered my home and hands were cleaned before babies were touched. There are plenty of ways to make sure puppies are socialized.
My GSD, in fact any dogbreed I have ever owned, including Dobermans, huskies, Shelties, Bernese Mtn Dogs, Greyhounds and rescues of different breeds, have always been friendly to strangers and I want them that way. In my home, my dogs better realize I am the owner of the home and therefore, anyone that walks in my door is already accepted by me and therefore the dog has no business deciding if they are welcome. If I am on the street, or in Petsmart, or at a dog show, if someone , including children come up to pet my dog, hopefully they ask first, because I have her sit and extend a paw in welcome to them. If they approach and just start petting her, they are liable to get a GSD in their arms until I can tell her to sit inbetween her washing their faces. I want my dogs to opening accept people, I want my dogs to be happy and excited to be out in the world, not imagining every little thing is out to get them, including kids.
As far as wanting the dog to protect me or my family in my home, if a GSD at the fence or at the window watching them is not enough to deter them from breaking into the home at night or while I am gone, then the dog biting them is likely not going to stop them anyway, except maybe get the dog killed. We have guns, with concealed weapons permits in the house and I imagine if needed, one of those would put a stop far better than a dog. Sorry, I don't want biting dogs, I won't allow biting dogs and just feel life is too short to worry daily, by the hour or minute that I have to be on guard to protect OTHERS from an aggressive dog.
For the folks that say" then why do you have a GSD if you don't want an aggressive or aloof to strangers dog? Because you can have a friendly happy well socialized dog that goes through life accepting things, and you can have a well trained, quick to learn dog that goes through life accepting things, and you can have all this wrapped up in a GSD, that the public can actually realize that GSD are great great dogs, not ones they have to be fearful with.


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## Liesje

wyominggrandma said:


> Sorry, I don't want biting dogs, I won't allow biting dogs and just feel life is too short to worry daily, by the hour or minute that I have to be on guard to protect OTHERS from an aggressive dog.
> For the folks that say" then why do you have a GSD if you don't want an aggressive or aloof to strangers dog? Because you can have a friendly happy well socialized dog that goes through life accepting things, and you can have a well trained, quick to learn dog that goes through life accepting things, and you can have all this wrapped up in a GSD, that the public can actually realize that GSD are great great dogs, not ones they have to be fearful with.


I was one that said that I and stand by that, but this post again seems to be talking about "aggression" in a very narrow and negative context. My most aggressive dog is my highest threshold, safest, most stable and well socialized dog. I take him everywhere. He can be out in the house when people come in (I put him up for people who don't like dogs or are allergic). I take him on vacation and he's off leash indoors and out with dozens of family. He does obedience demos for elementary school kids and marches in parades promoting the school. He is AKC CGC and ATTS TT. No bite history. I take him to work, to any business that allows dogs, I take him to the ice cream stand for his own sundae, walk him to my parent's and let him wander around their house. I took him to a pool party at a friend's house and we had several people *and* our intact dogs all off leash with no fights. I've never had a dog fight at my house and my dogs are safe training off leash when we get together with our friends and their dogs.

Why is owning a GSD an either/or? Some of these posts seem to imply that either your GSD is a sharp, suspicious nervebag that bites anyone who sets foot on your property, or it is a nice, sweet, dog accepting of everyone and couldn't possibly possess any level of aggression or courage that the breed is *supposed* to have.

The same dog that is safe and happy around family, friends, and kids and goes all over with me is also my best protection dog, my best Schutzhund dog. He has a higher threshold for defense and aggression but when he is presented with a real threat he is moving forward and relishing the fight.

People need to understand that aggression is just part of what this breed is and how it is supposed to be. When we are talking about dogs that are completely unapproachable and bite kids we are not just talking about aggression but dogs that have some sort of nerve issue and/or are overly sharp, overly suspicious, or their threshold for defense is just way too low.


----------



## KZoppa

Liesje said:


> I was one that said that I and stand by that, but this post again seems to be talking about "aggression" in a very narrow and negative context. My most aggressive dog is my highest threshold, safest, most stable and well socialized dog. I take him everywhere. He can be out in the house when people come in (I put him up for people who don't like dogs or are allergic). I take him on vacation and he's off leash indoors and out with dozens of family. He does obedience demos for elementary school kids and marches in parades promoting the school. He is AKC CGC and ATTS TT. No bite history. I take him to work, to any business that allows dogs, I take him to the ice cream stand for his own sundae, walk him to my parent's and let him wander around their house. I took him to a pool party at a friend's house and we had several people *and* our intact dogs all off leash with no fights. I've never had a dog fight at my house and my dogs are safe training off leash when we get together with our friends and their dogs.
> 
> Why is owning a GSD an either/or? Some of these posts seem to imply that either your GSD is a sharp, suspicious nervebag that bites anyone who sets foot on your property, or it is a nice, sweet, dog accepting of everyone.
> 
> The same dog that is safe and happy around family, friends, and kids and goes all over with me is also my best protection dog, my best Schutzhund dog. He has a higher threshold for defense and aggression but when he is presented with a real threat he is moving forward and relishing the fight.
> 
> People need to understand that aggression is just part of what this breed is and how it is supposed to be. When we are talking about dogs that are completely unapproachable and bite kids we are not just talking about aggression but dogs that have some sort of nerve issue and/or are overly sharp, overly suspicious, or their threshold for defense is just way too low.


 
:thumbup:


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## wyominggrandma

Liesje,Oh, I need to explain myself better. There are many many well trained dogs that are "aggressive" but are also the same dogs that kids can share a nap with.. I have nothing against them at all and didn't mean the type of dog you have and know,and their WELL KNOWLEDABLE OWNERS what I mean is the posts on posts of family dogs that bite their owners, their families, the neighbor kids, etc. and it seems to be an accepted part of owning a GSD.
Mainly my post was made because I have been told numerous times, by "experts" on this forum, that because my girl likes folks, and enjoys being around them, with them and going everywhere with me, that she is NOT a GSD and if I had wanted a dog like that I should have gotten a golden retriever or a cocker spaniel. 
Sorry, I have been bitten by more cockers than anything, and have seen plenty of aggressive goldens.
My first Doberman was trained in personal protection. Yet, he was the sweetest dog, loved kids, other dogs, adults, strangers, etc. I knew what I had in him, I knew what he was, yet not once did he ever bite or decide he needed to bite. But, he was well trained and a dog with a solid temperament.
I did not mean that GSD have to be either aggressive or pansies. I mean that they can be sweet loving dogs with great temperaments and stable minds, they don't have to be ticking timb bombs either with unstable temperaments, that unfortunately the public seems to see more of.


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## Liesje

OK I agree with you there, though I do think that in general, the GSD is and should be an "aloof" type dog, which to me means neutral around strangers with the owner present, but not wanting to greet everyone. For me personally, a dog that actually enjoys going up to random people and getting attention is too social. I like my GSDs to just ignore everyone, every person and dog, every thing, unless there is a real threat or unless I command otherwise. For me, the GSD that actually wants to be pet by lots of people is not as common and a little too social, but again that's just my interpretation of the standard, and this OP's case I say better safe than sorry. Better a GSD that is "too social" and too accepting than one that is too sharp and too suspicious.


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## crackem

I don't know. I guess if I was a first time buyer and didn't know the dogs, I'd see it as a flag.

as it stands, I have a dog from a bitch that if you're not in her inner circle, you don't get to touch her. She's very loving and affectionate to family, but not so much with others.

You can certainly go up and touch the dog if the owners are around and all that, but it only takes one newb to try and get all cute and cuddly and they're probably going to be bitten. 

I've trained with dogs out of 3 of her litters, including the one I have. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of those dogs any day. 

They bring the female out and people get to watch her work (or used to, she's retired) and they'd walk her around the people, but you absolutely did not get to go pet her and interact.


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## Freestep

NarysDad said:


> I am the breeder in which this member was asking about my male Ghost. Ghost was trained here to protect the property from others from coming onto the property and trying to steal any of my other dogs


You might have mentioned this sooner so we didn't all sit here and speculate without knowing the whole story. 

I previously posted that I would understand the behavior only if the dog were a former PD, but guard dog training is somewhat similar. In this case I can see that the dog's behavior is a product of his training. Of course the dog must have some civil aggression as part of his native temperament, and that may please some and turn off others. I personally wouldn't want a dog quite THAT civil, as liability scares me, but I bet Ghost would produce some awesome dogs for law enforcement! 

Narysdad, how much socializing did you do with Ghost as a puppy? Just curious how that may or may not have affected his training and disposition toward strangers.


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## NarysDad

Freestep said:


> You might have mentioned this sooner so we didn't all sit here and speculate without knowing the whole story.
> 
> I previously posted that I would understand the behavior only if the dog were a former PD, but guard dog training is somewhat similar. In this case I can see that the dog's behavior is a product of his training. Of course the dog must have some civil aggression as part of his native temperament, and that may please some and turn off others. I personally wouldn't want a dog quite THAT civil, as liability scares me, but I bet Ghost would produce some awesome dogs for law enforcement!
> 
> Narysdad, how much socializing did you do with Ghost as a puppy? Just curious how that may or may not have affected his training and disposition toward strangers.



I purchased Ghost at 11 months old and he was well socialized during this time after he came to live in our house. Ghost had a defensive side to him already at 11 months old, So at that time we went thru obedience classes not only to train him, but also to socialize him in a crowd of people. Then when I lost my import to a thief that decided he could walk away with him as easily as it happened. I had evaluated which of my males would be best suited for the job of protecting our property and our other dogs from harm and he was best suited for the training that was done.

Ghost is quite the big teddy bear with Cathy and I and a few that he knows well. I do have a gal that comes and helps on occasions with our kennel and he is great with her also. He is very good with my grand kids also, but wouldn't put strangers in his area due to his training. Yes he has produced a few officers in the past and one of them is in the picture on the right in the post that I put pictures in.

I live in a remote area on 8 acres of property, so to put up fencing would be out of the question as this only brings more attention to our place. He knows his property and has never crossed out of it at night when he is loose to have free run of it. I try to let others know all about him when they call about his litters so that one doesn't come here without an appointment as having him can surely be a liability. As for owning fire arms, well I just don't care for them as they are not what I feel comfortable with. During the day he is locked up in his run and his run is left open at night. I have bred him and have had 4 litters with him thru the years and always have clients on a waiting list for his next breeding. He has produced dogs that do SARS, Police, Schutzhund, PPD and of coarse well balance pets for homes with small children.

Sorry for not opening my mouth earlier, but there are times that I have seen these threads get rather nasty and didn't want others judging our kennel or Ghost in the wrong way. 95% of my dogs would be very friendly even if you were to go and open up their runs, so this is why I feel I need a dog like Ghost here to help keep them all safe

*I don't blame Steelhead and his wife for showing some concern and have welcomed them to come out to visit our place and if they still feel that this litter isn't what they are looking for I would be willing to help point them in the direction they are looking. I feel that it isn't important to sell my pups to everyone. but it is important to match them with the correct pup*


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## GSDElsa

NarysDad said:


> He knows his property and has never crossed out of it at night when he is loose to have free run of it.




Please tell me this is a joke!


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## NarysDad

GSDElsa said:


> Please tell me this is a joke!


Nope no joke!!!


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## LaRen616

My mom's GSD/Husky mix has never been in a fenced in yard. My mom's yard is an acre and a half, on one side is some woods, one side there is another house and the other side there is a busy street. Kota is going to be 13 years old in Feb. and she has never left the yard and they have actually forgot her outside when they were gone for 8 hours. 

Chuck's place is secluded with fields everywhere and his street isn't busy.


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## wyominggrandma

hmm, dog loose at night is left loose to roam ONLY your 8 acres you. He is a dog, an intact one at that and has free roam of your 8 acres and you ASSUME he never leaves because he is there in the morning. Do you stay up all night every night to see he never leaves or are you just saying he never leaves?
We are also talking about a dog that will ATTACK anyone not in his circle during these nightly runs of his? Are you serious? So I guess an innocent person who is hiking and lost since you live in the middle of nowhere with no roads nearby that happens to walk into your unfenced 8 acres is going to be attack and that is okay with you? If you have no boundries how does the dog know what his "lines" are, he takes a GPS with him? 
This is the most irresponsible act of ownership I have ever read. You admit this dog will attack, yet you turn him loose to "protect" your property, at night, while you are in your house sleeping, with no fencing? Unbelievable.


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## wyominggrandma

yes, LeRne, lots of people let their dogs roam.But did your parents let this dog roam loose knowing it was trained to bite and would bite if anyone so much as looked at it?
Probably not.


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## NarysDad

LaRen616 said:


> Chuck's place is secluded with fields everywhere and his street isn't busy.


Yes other than having the neighbor right next to us, there are 100's of acres between us and the next house down the road from us. Why is it that you think this is a joke *GSDElsa? *Ghost is now 8 years old and I have never in the past 6 years had a problem with him running off the property


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## LaRen616

wyominggrandma said:


> yes, LeRne, lots of people let their dogs roam.But did your parents let this dog roam loose knowing it was trained to bite and *would bite if anyone so much as looked at it?*
> Probably not.


LaRen*

I looked at the dog and it didn't bite me, I am sure many people have looked at the dog and they were not bit.


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## mysweetkaos

Not picking sides here...just an observation. People let their dogs out quite often without fencing and trust their dogs stay on their property. I grew up in a rural area and that's just how it was.
Also I can see now why the breeder didn't come forward earlier, to open themselves up to everyones critique. Them having a trained dog to ward off unwanted visitors is exactly that and it is no longer about the OP's original question.


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## wyominggrandma

Wow, I am going to step back from this. I am in shock.It seems the the owner of Ghost and a few of his supporters feels there is nothing wrong with turning loose a trained dog, knowing it will bite , loose unsupervised with no fencing and then makes jokes about it.
I hope the time never comes for Ghosts owner to face the mauling and or killing of a human with his turned loose attack dog. Just because it has not happened doesn't mean it won't.
Have a nice day


----------



## Packen

wyominggrandma said:


> Wow, I am going to step back from this. I am in shock.It seems the the owner of Ghost and a few of his supporters feels there is nothing wrong with turning loose a trained dog, knowing it will bite , loose unsupervised with no fencing and then makes jokes about it.
> I hope the time never comes for Ghosts owner to face the mauling and or killing of a human with his turned loose attack dog. Just because it has not happened doesn't mean it won't.
> Have a nice day


Something is wrong with the picture.


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## KZoppa

mysweetkaos said:


> Not picking sides here...just an observation. People let their dogs out quite often without fencing and trust their dogs stay on their property. I grew up in a rural area and that's just how it was.
> Also I can see now why the breeder didn't come forward earlier, to open themselves up to everyones critique. Them having a trained dog to ward off unwanted visitors is exactly that and it is no longer about the OP's original question.


 
yup. 

Personally I would love to have a Ghost son. And yes, I do have young kids. I dont doubt my ability to handle the dog and I dont doubt my ability to raise the dog. That could just be me for prefering a GSD that isnt lab like. I get excited about other GSDs but if the owner tells me the dog isnt fond of strangers, whether they say its okay to approach or not, i'm likely to keep my distance simply because I am respecting the dog by doing so. Just my opinion. If Ghost is the only one who is selective of his people and the other dogs are fine and Ghost simply has a job to do, i'm perfectly okay with that. Ghost was given a job to do and he takes it seriously. 

I'm sure Ghost is properly selective on who is an honest threat and who is not. I know if I had a dog who was selected and trained as my property guard, I too wouldnt be real inclined to allow people too close as IMO, its not 100% necessary for the dog to have to deal with strangers fawning all over him. If he tolerates it, fine, but why subject a dog who doesnt want the contact to begin with? I'm sorry. I just don't see the point in it. Now if i were taking such a dog out and about to stores and other public places, then yes, I would expect the dog to tolerate and be okay with strangers fawning all over because lets face it, people do really stupid things when they see a dog out and about. But thats not Ghost's job. 

again, JMO


----------



## mysweetkaos

wyominggrandma said:


> Wow, I am going to step back from this. I am in shock.It seems the the owner of Ghost and a few of his supporters feels there is nothing wrong with turning loose a trained dog, knowing it will bite , loose unsupervised with no fencing and then makes jokes about it.
> I hope the time never comes for Ghosts owner to face the mauling and or killing of a human with his turned loose attack dog. Just because it has not happened doesn't mean it won't.
> Have a nice day


 
Sorry if I came across as a "supporter" I do not know the gentlemen or what precautions he has in place. He has stated there are 100's of acres, of I am assuming privately owned property. I imagine he feels anyone on the property in the middle of the night is ill intentioned. I was simply saying as for people letting dogs out on your private property it happens all the time. I grew up in rural Nebraska (Panhandle) and there wasn't a property you could approach without meeting at least one barking dog. I hope nothing horrible happens either. I simply felt that people jumping in on his "technique" was unfair to the OP who was trying to make a decision to which however the breeder chooses to contain or not contain his dogs doesn't apply and I wouldn't want it to factor into their decision.


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## Kittilicious

I'm just going to say that being from a farming community, I know hand fulls upon hand fulls of people who allow their dogs to roam free on their property. Farm dogs (many shepherds around here) are not fenced in or tied up. And they aren't just all farm dogs. In fact I can't think of a single person I know that lives in the country that ties up/fences their dogs. One of the plus sides of living in the country. It's the ONLY reason I don't like living in town... I wish my dogs did have a few acres to run on.

Before you judge, just remember that what isn't the norm where you are from or what you are used to doesn't mean it's that way everywhere.

...and, after reading how Ghost is raised/his job, I would proudly own one of his pups! The explanation of why he can't be approached is completely 100% understandable now.


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## GSDElsa

Sorry, you all can argue, explain, cry, and throw as many hissy fits as you'd like. Letting an unaltered dog trained in PPD who is known to be untrustworthy with strangers is gross negligence if I've ever seen it. 

God only knows why Chuck volunteered this information. No one asked for it and it sounded to me like most people accepted his original explanation. Whatever the reason for sharing it, the bottom line is he did, and he kindly opened himself up to the opinions of others.

I really don't know what the farm folk do. The farm folk ususally don't own dogs like this one, either.


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## LaRen616

I bet if he was one of those holier than thou breeders on here people would all accept it and not say another word, because they are all perfect.


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## GSDElsa

LaRen616 said:


> I bet if he was one of those holier than thou breeders on here people would all accept it and not say another word, because they are all perfect.


:rofl:

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.


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## LaRen616

Just saying.

People talked crap when I was talking about getting Malice and even after I got Malice.


----------



## mysweetkaos

GSDElsa said:


> Sorry, you all can argue, explain, cry, and throw as many hissy fits as you'd like. Letting an unaltered dog trained in PPD who is known to be untrustworthy with strangers is gross negligence if I've ever seen it.
> 
> God only knows why Chuck volunteered this information. No one asked for it and it sounded to me like most people accepted his original explanation. Whatever the reason for sharing it, the bottom line is he did, and he kindly opened himself up to the opinions of others.
> 
> I really don't know what the farm folk do. The farm folk ususally don't own dogs like this one, either.


I'm not touching the first part, as I am not crying , arguing, or throwing hissy fits. However, your comment about "farm folk" was condascending and highly inflammatory. Not too mention if you don't know what the "farm folk" do than I would imagine you are also not qualified to make a statement as to what "kind" of dogs they own.


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## GSDElsa

That was actually supposed to say "I don't CARE...." Not "I don't know." Not sure why I typed know.


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## GSDElsa

LaRen616 said:


> Just saying.
> 
> People talked crap when I was talking about getting Malice and even after I got Malice.


Just saying what? I don't know your breeder. Do not know what kind of "crap" people were talking. Nor do I care.

However, you are always one of the first to lecture people (rightfully so in most instances) about responsible dog ownership. If it was anyone OTHER than your dog's breeder, ask yourself what YOU would be saying.


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## wyominggrandma

I AM going to comment again. I LIVE in the country in Wyoming. High in the mountains. I have acreage, I have mountains and lands all around me, as does the other people who live in the country. 
However, I am responsible for my dogs, they are in fenced acreage and are not allowed to roam free. People who let their dogs run free because they don't believe they need to be controlled are the reason that I have had horses run through fences, have had calves killed by roaming dogs and my own cats killed by loose dogs. People who let their dogs roam free in the country without keeping them on their own property think its okay, then scream bloody murder when they are shot and killed on a neighbors place. They are as irresponsible as the people who live in the city and let their dogs loose. Also, the ranchers and others who live in the country and let their dogs run lose many many dogs every year to being shot, run over, and any number of accidents, they just bury it and get another dog. 
Also, the owner of Ghost stated he has EIGHT acres. Eight acres is nothing as far as area goes, my dogs have 15 acres of fenced land and they can cover that area in about 1/2 hour just at a slow run.


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## LaRen616

GSDElsa said:


> Just saying what? I don't know your breeder. Do not know what kind of "crap" people were talking. Nor do I care.
> 
> However, you are always one of the first to lecture people (rightfully so in most instances) about responsible dog ownership. If it was anyone OTHER than your dog's breeder, ask yourself what YOU would be saying.


GSDs are herding breeds, they protect their flock, farm and property. 

I am sure farmers dont leash or lock up their dogs otherwise they wont be able to do their jobs.


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## wyominggrandma

If this Ghost lived in the city and was let loose at night to roam the neighborhood, bet the majority of everyone on here would be screaming " leash law" how could he let a mean dog loose, what about the neighbor kids". 
Yet, because he lives in the country, he and the folks who have bought dogs from him agree, that its okay to turn this same mean biting dog loose to roam on his land. He owns 8 acres and borders on the neighbors land.
So, like the GSD that were shot by hunters on their own land while the owners admitted the dogs were not under control on THEIR land, if a neighbor shot and killed Ghost for running on his land is it gonna be "poor Ghost" he was just patroling his property and crossed the neighbors land, or is it" Ghosts owners should have had control of his dog' Guess it depends if you buy dogs from him or not.


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## wyominggrandma

And if farmers don't keep their dogs locked up or under control at night, they come up missing and dead from being shot for being on anothers property.
Dogs aren't Lassie or Rin Tin Tin, they run and do not know boundries unless they are fenced in. 
Turning an aggressive, biting dog by the owners own comments is absolutely un responsible ownership in the worst way.


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## NarysDad

Just want to thank you all for your comments as I have just got off the phone with the op and he has reserved a pups from one of Ghosts litters


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## Emoore

All I know is, change the phrase "aggressive towards strangers" to "aggressive towards children," or "doesn't like to be messed with while he's eating" and the breeder or owner will be hanged, cut down whilst still living, entrails removed and burned before his eyes, then cut into quarters, with head placed on London Bridge and the quarters sent to each section of the kingdom as a warning to others who dare own or breed such a dog.


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## codmaster

*"Aloof, but APPROACHABLE!"* -- ANYTHING LESS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!

At least according to the US GSD standard! 

(Not including if it is a working dog actually working at the moment!)
(With a lot of BOTH genetics and environment from most experts!)


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## codmaster

Emoore said:


> All I know is, change the phrase "aggressive towards strangers" to "aggressive towards children," or "doesn't like to be messed with while he's eating" and the breeder or owner will be hanged, cut down whilst still living, entrails removed and burned before his eyes, then cut into quarters, with head placed on London Bridge and the quarters sent to each section of the kingdom as a warning to others who dare own or breed such a dog.


 
Heh! Heh! Heh! Sounds reasonable!


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## Lucy Dog

Chuck... In the 8 years you've owned him, have you ever had strangers walking or passing by when Ghost was outside? I'd assume someone had to pass by since you've had this dog. Did anything happen when it did?


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## wyominggrandma

From what has been said he is in a kennel during the day, away from people. At night, when nobody can see him approach , he is running loose with no restraint. 
Can anyone predict what a dog like this will do if you can't even approach him on a leash with the owner HOLDING the leash? Since he is kept under lock and key during the day so he won't bite anyone, and let loose at night to be free and roam, I would hate to be the one to find out exactly what this dog will do.


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## NarysDad

Paul there are people that may drive by the house, but remember I live on a secluded road that has maybe 6 homes on it and the road is about 5-8 miles long. I have had the neighbors come home late at night and never had an issue with Ghost being on their property. There have been nights while whelping pups that I have brought out the moms in the 1000 square foot area that is fenced and had seen Ghost laying in his run as if that was no big deal.

As for being a irresponsible owner that you may think I am. Well there are some of you that feel a loose dog is wrong and for that it's ok as I have no reason to take your comments the wrong was as you just don't live where I'm at and don't understand that I don't live in a neighborhood where this is not acceptable. A dog can be taught that there are boundaries. In the winter they are all inside a building including Ghost under lock and key, but in the summer they are outside in runs along with Ghost.

All my dogs go out for their outs inside 1,000 sguare feet of 6ft fence for those that 1 need their exercise and also to protect them from passing cars. 

What works for me may not work for others, I don't try to force feed my beliefs onto others saying they are wrong and irresponsible


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## NarysDad

wyominggrandma said:


> From what has been said he is in a kennel during the day, away from people. At night, when nobody can see him approach , he is running loose with no restraint.
> Can anyone predict what a dog like this will do if you can't even approach him on a leash with the owner HOLDING the leash? Since he is kept under lock and key during the day so he won't bite anyone, and let loose at night to be free and roam, I would hate to be the one to find out exactly what this dog will do.


You must have to have your guys in a fence or they will run off. Ghost isn't under lock and key during the day and has gone many places with myself or my wife without issues

It is ignorant comments like yours that had kept me quiet yesterday and not saying I was the breeder or Ghost in question


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## codmaster

wyominggrandma said:


> hmm, dog loose at night is left loose to roam ONLY your 8 acres you. He is a dog, an intact one at that and has free roam of your 8 acres and you ASSUME he never leaves because he is there in the morning. Do you stay up all night every night to see he never leaves or are you just saying he never leaves?
> We are also talking about a dog that will ATTACK anyone not in his circle during these nightly runs of his? Are you serious? So I guess an innocent person who is hiking and lost since you live in the middle of nowhere with no roads nearby that happens to walk into your unfenced 8 acres is going to be attack and that is okay with you? If you have no boundries how does the dog know what his "lines" are, he takes a GPS with him?
> This is the most irresponsible act of ownership I have ever read. You admit this dog will attack, yet you turn him loose to "protect" your property, at night, while you are in your house sleeping, with no fencing? Unbelievable.


*What she said!*


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## RocketDog

I don't want to get in the middle of anything but I only have this to say:

My labrador would no more have left our property than he would've chewed off his own leg. We lived in three different houses and never had a fence with any of them. We have a fence here, but part of it got taken down during some renovation and we didn't put it back up until we got Rocket, because of the deer and him learning not to chase them. 

Every once in awhile we'd forget he was outside (this was at our old suburban house before this property) and the neighbors would call and say "Your dog has been laying out on your porch for a couple hours, did you know?" then they'd tell me how awesome he was because kids walking dogs, bicyclists, etc would go by on the sidewalk and he wouldn't even move, just stare at them. In 12 years he never once left our yard without us. 

It certainly is possible.


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## Lilie

mysweetkaos said:


> I'm not touching the first part, as I am not crying , arguing, or throwing hissy fits. However, your comment about "farm folk" was condascending and highly inflammatory. Not too mention if you don't know what the "farm folk" do than I would imagine you are also not qualified to make a statement as to what "kind" of dogs they own.


I'm from 'farm folk' and I'm considered a *******. I've got a double whammy going for me! 

Guess the only thing left for me to do is go out to the pasture and drink a beer...or two....hey, doesn't sound like a bad idea, if only I liked beer. Perhaps a rum & dt. coke....I suppose that makes me a "farm folk, *******, pirate".


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## gagsd

To the OP:
(edited: I had not read this whole thread when I replied)

I will be an odd-man out.... I would not write off a dog who is not "pettable" by strangers as poor temperament. And I CERTAINLY would not say it was a fear-aggression issue. 

There are some tough, socially aggressive dogs out there. Some may not accept handling by strangers. It is one of the spectrums of temperament in the breed I, personally, do not have a problem with.

Now..... whether you are the right home for that type of dog, I do not know.
(and I have no idea the breeder you are talking about.)


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## codmaster

NarysDad said:


> You must have to have your guys in a fence or they will run off. Ghost isn't under lock and key during the day and has gone many places with myself or my wife without issues
> 
> It is ignorant comments like yours that had kept me quiet yesterday and not saying I was the breeder or Ghost in question


So what will your "trained" attack dog do if someone walks by (not on) your unfenced property? Did you ever answer (or even think about) this question?

Or maybe Ghost is well enough trained to recognize your property lines and remain just inside of the invisible line?????

From what you have finally said, I don't blame you *in the least* for keeping quiet about being the owner of such an uncontrolled dog. Not a bit!

BTW, fences are for the protection of the dog as well as innocent bystanders.

BTW2, do you really think that a single dog will protect your property from a determined and/or professional thief? If so, good luck! 

Even an ordinary junkyard owner will have multiple dogs.


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## codmaster

NarysDad said:


> Just want to thank you all for your comments as I have just got off the phone with the op and he has reserved a pups from one of Ghosts litters


 
Best of luck to him then! Hope he never comes to your place and gets out of his car.


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## wyominggrandma

I am not ignorant at all. Just a responsible dog owner who keeps her dogs ON HER PROPERTY. I live in the country on many acres with nobody around me. Not even neighbors. Yet, I am ignorant because I tend to feel that it is responsible to keep my dogs containe?. Even if you want to call me ignorant, at least, at ALL TIMES during the day and night, my dogs are protected from anyone or anything else and MY dogs are safe.
Oh yea, my dogs do and will stay around me at all times, even while I am asleep. So to answer your question, they do not run away. 
Maybe ignorant by your standards, how ever low they are.


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## mysweetkaos

RocketDog said:


> I don't want to get in the middle of anything but I only have this to say:
> 
> My labrador would no more have left our property than he would've chewed off his own leg. We lived in three different houses and never had a fence with any of them. We have a fence here, but part of it got taken down during some renovation and we didn't put it back up until we got Rocket, because of the deer and him learning not to chase them.
> 
> Every once in awhile we'd forget he was outside (this was at our old suburban house before this property) and the neighbors would call and say "Your dog has been laying out on your porch for a couple hours, did you know?" then they'd tell me how awesome he was because kids walking dogs, bicyclists, etc would go by on the sidewalk and he wouldn't even move, just stare at them. In 12 years he never once left our yard without us.
> 
> It certainly is possible.


I agree. I have seen many dogs who acted as if there was an invisible line there and stayed within the bounds of their property. Doesn't work for me....but it can happen.



Lilie said:


> I'm from 'farm folk' and I'm considered a *******. I've got a double whammy going for me!
> 
> Guess the only thing left for me to do is go out to the pasture and drink a beer...or two....hey, doesn't sound like a bad idea, if only I liked beer. Perhaps a rum & dt. coke....I suppose that makes me a "farm folk, *******, pirate".


Sounds like a good time, although I am an uppity former farm folk who has become city-fied, so I am going to sit in my formal living room with a glass of wine. What's a pirate?


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## Lilie

mysweetkaos said:


> Sounds like a good time, although I am an uppity former farm folk who has become city-fied, so I am going to sit in my formal living room with a glass of wine. What's a pirate?


Hec, that's because you are in MO...too cold!


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## onyx'girl

LaRen616 said:


> Chuck's place is secluded with fields everywhere and his street isn't busy.


So was Al's


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## Kittilicious

mysweetkaos said:


> I agree. I have seen many dogs who acted as if there was an invisible line there and stayed within the bounds of their property. Doesn't work for me....but it can happen.


Me too. I have a friend who has a dog that you can't even talk off the property - even with treats. We've tried.  And he's an unneutered male.


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## mysweetkaos

Lilie said:


> Hec, that's because you are in MO...too cold!


I know it's getting way too cold!! Maybe a hot whiskey is in order. Although it's a heck of a lot warmer than when DH's job had us in Wisconsin, that's for sure!


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## cassadee7

dog that is aloof and rather not be petted = fine
dog that is barking crazily, snarling, and might possibly bite me even after I have stood there with its owner for 10 minutes and the owner cannot calm the dog down = not so great


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## onyx'girl

Sometimes it isn't so much leaving the property boundaries, but what will come into your property that will be harmful or a liability. Unfortunately the dog will be blamed or harmed when left unattended in an unsecured setting.


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## Snarly

The entire situation to me sounds like an excuse because the dog cannot be controlled. Even VERY aggressive, protective (or how ever you want to word it) dogs should be able to be fine when the owner is there/says its ok. JMO
Someone I know has massive malamutes that are beyond protective of their property that if the owner is not there they will attack people (and have) and kill animals/other dogs but if the owner is there they are quite friendly. I've interacted with them numerous times but would not dare go uninvited!


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## Cassidy's Mom

1sttimeforgsd said:


> 2. He was given a job to do which was to be protective of his property, in so that means to not be a friendly dog. If he is trained to be friendly with some and not with others would that not be sending a mixed message to the dog.


I do not agree. Dogs are quite capable of discerning the difference between a friendly stranger invited onto the property by the owner and an uninvited interloper with ill intent. This explains it well:



Liesje said:


> The same dog that is safe and happy around family, friends, and kids and goes all over with me is also my best protection dog, my best Schutzhund dog. He has a higher threshold for defense and aggression but when he is presented with a real threat he is moving forward and relishing the fight.


He understands when an aggressive response is appropriate and towards whom, and when not.


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## Liesje

OK so I don't really agree with letting my dog roam all day and night even if he stayed on my property but you know what...I doubt there's another dog owner let alone breeder out there that does everything 100% like I would. Now I won't support a breeder that I honestly feel is unethical but I'm never going to find one that raises, trains, and confines their dogs the same way I do. I'm mostly interested in the DOG I am looking to purchase. As long as I own the DOG in full and am free to raise it and treat it as I see fit, then I can agree to disagree about a lot of things. This is just a general statement. I've never met Chuck or his dogs.


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## sparra

If this was any other breeder not on this forum some of the responses would be quite different.
Not that they will care but I have lost respect for the opinions of quite a few on this thread for their views on this especially on the dog being let to be loose on the property with no fences.
We are farmers, you know, those irresponsible ******** who let their dogs do anything. There would not be one neighbour I can think of around us who lets their dogs "roam" at night. They are responsible and keep their dogs contained as they know a dog loose at night can't be trusted (as a neighbour found out when their dogs killed our sheep)
As for LaRen's comment about GSD being bred to heard and protect livestock...........most would tear a sheep up in minutes if they could. Herding is a discipline learned over many hours of training.....if you think a GSD who has no training in herding will protect sheep.....you are dreaming.
I am shocked that some people see no problem with letting this dog do as he likes at night but absolutely tear people apart who come on here and say they leave their dogs unsupervised even for minutes in the backyard .....talk about a double standard.
I don't care who it is......if they are being irresponsible then they should get the same treatment as any other.
Good luck to the buyer of this puppy....I wouldn't give my money to an irresponsible breeder......advice which is constantly thrown around on here.
Leave a dog that is trained to attack people out at night with no fences.....that is irresponsible no matter who you are.


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## ctemp

*Really!!*

***** comments removed by Admin***


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## sparra

ctemp said:


> ******* quore removed**.


What the?


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## Snarly

So you bash him and then say "give the guy a break"...



ctemp said:


> ** quote removed **


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## cliffson1

Whoa, I missed it where this dog ever "tore somebody up", or where somebody has a first hand account of this dog indiscrimimately biting someone, or any of the extreme scenarios that have been created on this thread. And if these things haven't happened shame on some of you for creating these scenarios. Whew!!!.....I have 12 acres and I let my dogs run loose a lot and I really could care what you people think about me. I breed some of the same lines as Chuck and this is what I strive for and I'm sure Chuck does too! This is a Czech/West dog out of similar lines to Ghost, the OP was getting a puppy not the father or mother.....!


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## onyx'girl

ctemp said:


> *** quote removed**.


And you are? 3 posts from you and they relate to SBD's. I don't think this thread would go silent regardless. He didn't have to reveal himself(I know hes done that before on other threads) and many guessed who the breeder was without his revelation. 
I hope Steelhead and his family get a great pup, and that they researched the lines, the breed and then will do the best by the pup. 
If not, then I think silence will be what will happen, because neither the buyer or the breeder will come on here with an update.


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## sparra

LaRen616 said:


> GSDs are herding breeds, they protect their flock, farm and property.
> 
> I am sure farmers dont leash or lock up their dogs otherwise they wont be able to do their jobs.


geeze I wish I knew how to post that little guy who bursts into laughter and spits all over his computer.
We farm just over 8,000 acres here in Australia and can't see a neighbour and our dogs are behind a fence reinforced with an e-fence.....to allow them their freedom while also ensuring they can't get up to mischief.


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## JakodaCD OA

well ctemps post will be removed shortly (I am not a mod on this thread or would remove it myself) as personal attacks of this nature on not allowed.

I don't know chuck personally, just from the boards, so I will refrain from commenting on his breeding procedures of which I have no knowledge

IF someone wants to let their dog roam their property at nite , well so be it, it's their risk to take and their problem should one arise. Me personally, never gonna happen.

Sparra you did have an excellent point about double standard. 

As for the OP"s original question, which kinda got lost in the sauce, after reading thru this 16 page novel, If the thought of not being able to "touch" one of the dogs in question , but your still interested, how about meeting some offspring or contacting owners of previous offspring, from previous breedings??? I don't know anyone who intentionally breeds dogs to be mean , nasty , biting machines. 

I do not breed nor claim to, but I do have a 3 year old female, that has no problem with strangers on her property or in the house, but take her off property and she is more than 'aloof'..You can talk to her, you can admire her, but keep your hands off of her She just isn't interested and she is what she is. (no she's not going to attack you but she doesn't want to be your friend either

Lies had a really good post a few pages back about gsd's are supposed to have some aggressive traits, (sorry I forget the entire thread just the gist of it),,these dogs are not golden retrievers, they aren't supposed to love every tom,**** and harry they come across, some can be 'more' dog than others, they are what they are.


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## Zisso

Before I got the two GSD's that I have now, I had my Miss Lizzie. She seemed to have a 6th sense about her property lines no matter where we lived. One time, we lived in an upstairs duplex. Her chain link kennel was at the base of the stairs leading up to the apt. She would spend her days there while I was at work. One day, a male chow came to visit her because she was in heat. He busted her loose from the kennel. 

She went up the stairs and laid by the front door the rest of the day, accompanied by the chow. When I arrived home, there they were, both lazin' by the door. Chow boy took off when we went in the pat but came back nearly daily after that and kept her company. The house I am in now had no fence when we moved in, but Miss Lizzy never went past the drainage ditch out back or the to the foot path next to the house. She would go close to the path and bark at strangers, but never got close enough to touch them, just to scare them off. 

So yes, I can see a dog knowing their boundaries and adhering to them 100%

That being said, there is no way that I would consider my two having that kind of freedom these days, but I also live in the city so it is not an option  

Hopefully the OP can make their way through this thread to see that it is ultimately their choice and to enjoy whatever pup they bring into their lives.


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## sparra

cliffson1 said:


> Whoa, I missed it where this dog ever "tore somebody up", or where somebody has a first hand account of this dog indiscrimimately biting someone, or any of the extreme scenarios that have been created on this thread. And if these things haven't happened shame on some of you for creating these scenarios. Whew!!!.....I have 12 acres and I let my dogs run loose a lot and I really could care what you people think about me. I breed some of the same lines as Chuck and this is what I strive for and I'm sure Chuck does too! This is a Czech/West dog out of similar lines to Ghost, the OP was getting a puppy not the father or mother.....!


So Cliff......do you have a dog trained in protection that can't be approached even with you there and leave him out unsupervised all night to protect your property with no fences??


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## Xeph

I don't think that the dog can't be approached...what I read is that strangers shouldn't pet him.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think "approach" and "touch" are two different things.

With mine anyhow, you can come on up, sit next to her, stand next to her, lay down on the ground next to her if you want to,,she is going to ignore you (or think you might be a little crazy she just prefers you don't pet her. 

Think about it, and yeah yeah I know dogs are not people,,but I equate Masi with a person who meets a stranger and you don't want that 'stranger' hugging you, being familiar with you? I know I don't.

As I said, at home, on my property, strangers are welcome, she could really care less about you, but she accepts anyone on her turf


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## Liesje

I've got one GSD that is too social for my tastes and I don't allow anyone to just walk up and pet any of my dogs. I don't care how social or aloof or snappy a dog is that's just not cool.


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## JakodaCD OA

actually Lies your right,,I kinda equate it to rude doggie behavior except the one half is human..


----------



## GSDluver4lyfe

codmaster said:


> *"Aloof, but APPROACHABLE!"* -- ANYTHING LESS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!
> 
> At least according to the US GSD standard!
> 
> (Not including if it is a working dog actually working at the moment!)
> (With a lot of BOTH genetics and environment from most experts!)


This is why there are so many types of GSD's (among almost every other breed) being bred. The standard is up for interpretation and my understanding of approachable is much different than yours. A GSD should be able to be approached and so long as no direct threat can be interpreted towards the dog or owner, the dog should remain unfazed, IMO but petting has no place in approachable. No where in the standard does it say a GSD should love being petted and fawned over. 

Now I do not know the breeder nor am I defending him or practices but to the original question not being able to pet one of the parents isn't a deal breaker, plus I'm not too big on petting other people's dogs. Now if one of the parents was barking/growling/lunging at me that would make me question the dog's temperament (especially with the owner present ensuring all is ok) but remaining aloof, allowing me to approach but not into petting is fine by me. 

There was a GSD I took care of for a few years that had a rock solid temperament (and also produced the best GSD I've ever owned and fear I will never find one like him again) and was practically unfazed by anything. You could walk up to him, stand next to him ect no reaction but he did NOT like to be petted and would let you know to back off. He never snapped or lunged but would let out a low growl when he had enough. I did however see him one time jump up and put his front paws on some guys shoulders and look him right in the eye and let out a very low growl (his owner was present, so not under my watch and called him off). It was very intimidating IMO and showed me the power that dog had (he didn't snap, or bark or show teeth. It was like he knew how strong he was and one look was enough to get the guy to back off). He was always in full control of himself and never over-reacted (biting, snapping, lunging ect). If he were my dog I would tell people not to pet him simply to offer him respect because he did not like it. Now could he have bitten, sure if someone was too stupid to read the signs and that is exactly why I don't like people petting my dogs (past or present). Its not my dog I don't trust its people. But we live in a much different world that when the GSD (as well as other protections breeds) were created. What was acceptable back then will throw you in a courtroom faster than you can blink nowadays. I personally have no intentions of seeing the inside of a court room due to a dog bite (provoked or not) so I will always take more social over "aggressive". 

It just bothers me when people always bring up the breed standard when this breed (although bred for herding) was also crossed over to be a protection/guard dog. You can't have that with no aggression and too often I find aggression is almost always associated with fear aggression.


----------



## cliffson1

@ Sparra...ALL my dogs do protection work .....if I have a dog that would not react aggressively on my property at night to a stranger in the woods I live in....then it would not be typical of my breeding. I don't let them out all night, but I expect them to let me know somebody is coming down that 900 foot driveway, and not with smooches and tail wagging.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

cliff thats what my male aussie's job is, masi is right behind him tho


----------



## KZoppa

cliffson1 said:


> @ Sparra...ALL my dogs do protection work .....if I have a dog that would not react aggressively on my property at night to a stranger in the woods I live in....then it would not be typical of my breeding. I don't let them out all night, but I expect them to let me know somebody is coming down that 900 foot driveway, *and not with smooches and tail wagging*.


 

I wish my current two werent so happy to see strangers. It doesnt exactly help one feel safe when someone shows up at your door at 2am and the dogs are excited and happy some stranger is hanging around.


----------



## sparra

cliffson1 said:


> I don't let them out all night, but I expect them to let me know somebody is coming down that 900 foot driveway, and not with smooches and tail wagging.


And that sounds sensible to me 

Anyway....way too much energy invested in this  
I am just really blown away with the double standard here.....will be interesting to see how other threads go on these topics when the poster is just the average Joe......

@KZoppa......I have also seen you give very sound advice about how important it is that your dog is accepting of strangers when the owner is home and there is no perceived threat.......


----------



## Freestep

Well, all I have to say about letting an attack-trained dog run loose is, that is something I would NEVER do, at least not in this society! It's an extreme liability I simply wouldn't be willing to take; let alone the fact that I don't want to see a teenage kid lost in the woods get mauled because he stumbled onto my unfenced property. You know THAT would to make local headlines, and when it came out that I, the owner, had trained an "attack" dog that was running at large mauling children... oh man, think of how bad that media circus would to reflect on our breed! Now if the same dog did NOT attack the teenage kid, everyone would call him a lousy GSD for letting a stranger enter the property. You can't win. 

Let alone all the dangers that could befall a dog running loose in the woods; snakebite, packs of stray dogs, mountain lions, hunters, poison, cars, theives who will simply kill my dog (or kidnap him)... I'm way too paranoid.

On the other hand: if a dog was left loose to patrol 8 acres of unfenced land and he actually never did leave the property, that is the kind of dog I want to have. A dog that has no desire to roam is a good thing, as I see it. I assume this tendency is more genetic than learned, so if I was looking for this trait I guess I'd look at the offspring of such a dog.


----------



## Rerun

sparra said:


> @KZoppa......I have also seen you give very sound advice about how important it is that your dog is accepting of strangers when the owner is home and there is no perceived threat.......


I can't speak for Kzoppa. But no one comes knocking on my door or walking around my house at 2am. And if they do, it's an automatic perceived threat. It's not the neighbor asking for something, it's not a delivery man, it's not a friend or family member. 

The dogs are very calm when people come to the door during the day. Afternoonish. But early in the AM, or after dark in the evening, and especially overnight, if someone is in my yard I will know about it. Dogs are not stupid animals. They know what the "norm" for their house and property is. I expect not to wade through four pissed off dogs in the afternoon to get the knock at the door from the UPS man. But if we are asleep and someone walks through my yard, the dogs know they are not expected to be there at that time. I have no idea how they know, but they know it's not normal and they alert to it.


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## Lilie

I'll be the first to admit it...I let my over sized, aloof, serious minded GSD roam loose in my house while I sleep. I sure hope nobody comes in while I'm not watching.


----------



## KZoppa

sparra said:


> And that sounds sensible to me
> 
> Anyway....way too much energy invested in this
> I am just really blown away with the double standard here.....will be interesting to see how other threads go on these topics when the poster is just the average Joe......
> 
> @KZoppa......I have also seen you give very sound advice about how important it is that your dog is accepting of strangers when the owner is home and there is no perceived threat.......


 
And thats fine but I've also said that I would prefer my dogs not fawn over and get excited about strangers. I would much prefer they not seek attention from those outside the family. When we are out in public, I am fine with people approaching and asking to pet them but I dont want them to be wiggly happy about it. Tolerant is fine, not the overly exciteable they are in reality. I prefer that I dont want to be friends with everyone attitude over the lab like attitude they have. When someone shows up at my door at 2am when my husband isnt home and my kids are in their beds sleeping and the dogs are all tail wags and lovey, thats not a perk for me. 

Yes, i want my next dog to be my demo dog for when I am dog training which will be out in public and allow for the dog to be approachable but not fawning over everyone. I want my dog to focus on ME more than the attention they can get from strangers. I dont have a double standard. Yes, its important my dogs be socialized BUT to behave like labs in oober friendly personality is not 100% acceptable to me. I want the actual standard GSD personality. If i wanted a lab, i would have gotten a lab. I have GSDs because of the deterent factor but its really just not believable when you're constantly seeing "OMG SOMEONE IS AT THE DOOR!!!!!! HOW EXCITING!!!!!!!!!!!" instead of "hey, someone is at the door...." 

I doubt I can explain my ideal dog to the satisfaction of most. I know what I want and what should be. A well socialized dog is ideal but I also dont want or need a dog who looks to everyone we pass on the street during a walk or in a store as a potential attention grabber like the two I have now do. I want tolerant and accepting when I say its okay but not focusing on strangers to the point of distraction.


----------



## KZoppa

Rerun said:


> I can't speak for Kzoppa. But no one comes knocking on my door or walking around my house at 2am. And if they do, it's an automatic perceived threat. It's not the neighbor asking for something, it's not a delivery man, it's not a friend or family member.
> 
> The dogs are very calm when people come to the door during the day. Afternoonish. But early in the AM, or after dark in the evening, and especially overnight, if someone is in my yard I will know about it. Dogs are not stupid animals. They know what the "norm" for their house and property is. I expect not to wade through four pissed off dogs in the afternoon to get the knock at the door from the UPS man. But if we are asleep and someone walks through my yard, the dogs know they are not expected to be there at that time. I have no idea how they know, but they know it's not normal and they alert to it.


 
And thats how I wish my dogs were. Riley huffs and puffs at everything. Every little noise, you're likely to hear a huff, puff or a woof or all out angry dog barking but his tail is wagging like crazy and he's just doing that happy dog dance. Shasta just wags her tail. No barking. I dont even think she knows how to growl. She is too friendly for my tastes. I never felt more safe at home along with the kids, than i did when Zena lived with us because she was exactly like reruns dogs in there were just certain times of the day that someone showing up or hanging around the yard, something was off. If you've ever been in the military and lived around the base, you generally realize that housing isnt always in the best of neighborhoods. 

Our current housing area is really nice but you can still tell that leaving the housing area, you're going into a shady area. After some previous experiences in high school and apartment living even in good areas, you better believe i would rather have a dog who is a bit more judging of people than one who wants to be friends with every tom and jane they see.


----------



## Liesje

Freestep said:


> Well, all I have to say about letting an attack-trained dog run loose is, [...] had trained an "attack" dog that was running at large mauling children...


Wait, OK I'm not on the Chuck bandwagon but where did he say the dog was "attack-trained"?


----------



## mysweetkaos

KZoppa said:


> And thats how I wish my dogs were. Riley huffs and puffs at everything. Every little noise, you're likely to hear a huff, puff or a woof or all out angry dog barking but his tail is wagging like crazy and he's just doing that happy dog dance. Shasta just wags her tail. No barking. I dont even think she knows how to growl. She is too friendly for my tastes. I never felt more safe at home along with the kids, than i did when Zena lived with us because she was exactly like reruns dogs in there were just certain times of the day that someone showing up or hanging around the yard, something was off. If you've ever been in the military and lived around the base, you generally realize that housing isnt always in the best of neighborhoods.
> 
> Our current housing area is really nice but you can still tell that leaving the housing area, you're going into a shady area. After some previous experiences in high school and apartment living even in good areas, you better believe i would rather have a dog who is a bit more judging of people than one who wants to be friends with every tom and jane they see.


I agree. Kaos is not a people dog. He has been known to push someones outstretched hand away with his nose to prevent them from petting. That's ok with me, he prefers people outside his circle stay that way. Your Shasta is still young, she may change and become more watchful or maybe she is just mimicing Riley who is a mix so she may not get that natural watchfulness. I've had questions about our mix as well. He is only 8 months old so time will tell, but as it is now, I'm leaning towards someone could break in as long as they had a couple ear/belly rubs ready.


----------



## mysweetkaos

Liesje said:


> Wait, OK I'm not on the Chuck bandwagon but where did he say the dog was "attack-trained"?


I am not sure. I think he mentioned somewhere that he needed a dog for property protection and given Ghost's personality he picked him for training...or something to that extent.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Well I think now that the Op has reserved a pup the discussion should shift to whether it should be an indoor or outdoor dog. Should they have fencing or let it roam? Crated most of the day or out in the yard. Sleep in the house or in the garage? What about those strange adults and small children entering the property? A warning sign or not? Anything else?


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jack's Dad said:


> Well I think now that the Op has reserved a pup the discussion should shift to whether it should be an indoor or outdoor dog. Should they have fencing or let it roam? Crated most of the day or out in the yard. Sleep in the house or in the garage? What about those strange adults and small children entering the property? A warning sign or not? Anything else?


Can't forget about which food to feed.


----------



## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Wait, OK I'm not on the Chuck bandwagon but where did he say the dog was "attack-trained"?


I'm assuming part of his guardian training involved bitework?


----------



## lemans

codmaster said:


> *"Aloof, but APPROACHABLE!"* -- ANYTHING LESS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!
> 
> At least according to the *US GSD standard*!
> 
> (Not including if it is a working dog actually working at the moment!)
> (With a lot of BOTH genetics and environment from most experts!)


The US GSD standard? Really? Every country has it's own standard now? You mean the original set by Max Von Stephanitz isn't good enough?

To the OP, In the situation you described, it would not be a red flag for me.
You have been invited to the breeders place. Go and use your own judgement, best of luck to you.

What a funny thread.


----------



## KZoppa

mysweetkaos said:


> I agree. Kaos is not a people dog. He has been known to push someones outstretched hand away with his nose to prevent them from petting. That's ok with me, he prefers people outside his circle stay that way. Your Shasta is still young, she may change and become more watchful or maybe she is just mimicing Riley who is a mix so she may not get that natural watchfulness. I've had questions about our mix as well. He is only 8 months old so time will tell, but as it is now, I'm leaning towards someone could break in as long as they had a couple ear/belly rubs ready.


 
see the thing that confuses me is Riley is Border Collie and GSD. Neither breed is exactly well known for being oober friendly and accepting of people easily. BCs dont generally care for outsiders at all. Riley can be aggressive towards other dogs but people... he's very friendly and easily excited by them. I'm hoping as Shasta reaches her 2nd birthday we start to see a change in her personality leaning more towards being watchful than OMG PLEASE PET ME!!!!! We'll see, I know but a clue would be nice.


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## cliffson1

" I assume", I don't think people know enough about the dog referred to be assuming....of course when I see people assuming without basis....I ASSUME about them.......!lol


----------



## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Whoa, I missed it where this dog ever "tore somebody up", or where somebody has a first hand account of this dog indiscrimimately biting someone, or any of the extreme scenarios that have been created on this thread. And if these things haven't happened shame on some of you for creating these scenarios. Whew!!!.....I have 12 acres and I let my dogs run loose a lot and I really could care what you people think about me. I breed some of the same lines as Chuck and *this is what I strive for* and I'm sure Chuck does too! This is a Czech/West dog out of similar lines to Ghost, the OP was getting a puppy not the father or mother.....!


So now we know what kind of temperament GSD that you seem to like and maybe strive for!

And you and everybody else on the forum and elsewhere has the right to raise their GSD to act toward people however they want to (as long as they are willing and able to deal with the consequences of course).

And then we wonder about the GSD's reputation?

Curiously, I do wonder how many folks who think having a GSD who will show (going just on what the OP said) totally unprovoked aggression to anybody coming near him would be ok if we switched the breed under discussion to the oft dreaded and feared PIT BULL? Just asking?


----------



## IllinoisGSD

Lots of opinions in this thread and just that... opinions. To each their own. People should judge less. There isn't enough information about Ghost to make a solid assessment. Go meet the dog and then form your own opinion.


----------



## Lucy Dog

IllinoisGSD said:


> Lots of opinions in this thread and just that... opinions. To each their own. People should judge less. There isn't enough information about Ghost to make a solid assessment. Go meet the dog and then form your own opinion.


That's the whole point of this thread. You can't "meet" the dog unless you want to get bit.


----------



## sparra

NarysDad said:


> *Ghost was trained here to protect the property from others from coming onto the property and trying to steal any of my other dogs as this had happened once when we had first moved here and I said that the next time they will be in for quite the surprise.*
> 
> But as most of you all know that when a pup goes into a home it's up the their new owner to keep the pup socialized _and not the breeders fault if the said pup is 6 months old and decides to bite or be fearful of its surroundings_


 In reference to the bold I don't know that there is NO BASIS to assume the dog has done bitework.....I'm thinking he wasn't trained to lick the intruder to death As for the other part i find that to be an interesting statement....maybe that is how some BYB think too.


----------



## selzer

I do not think the sire is 1/2 the equation. He gives 1/2 the genes, but the dam gives 1/2 of the genes, and she also impacts the litter through their early socialization and imprinting. So, I give the bitch's temperament more weight.

Also, you limit yourself possibly to BYBs, if you require meeting sire and dam. Some good breeders keep dogs, but to get the best breeding, most good breeders will breed to the best dog for their bitch, and that dog is not always one they own. 

People often lack so much in how they behave around dogs, I dunno. I might not let someone interact with a dog if I did not know what they would do. Are they going to stare into the dog's eyes? Are they going to play with their hands above the dogs nose like some lady in the shop did with Cujo the other day? 

I guess I would feel a bit concerned if someone would say that to me though. 

However, I might not allow a bitch to interact with a total stranger when she has puppies there who are three weeks old or younger. Why stress her out. And it may stress a totally normal bitch to have a complete stranger touching her very young puppies. As they get older and hardier, a good bitch will become less worried about them. Babs' litter will be three weeks this coming Thursday. Yesterday my neighbor came over, who was never in my home, and I handed him a puppy. Babs was alert and right next to me, but never made any aggressive move. When the puppy was returned, she lay down next to me. I did not push him to pet her though.


----------



## chelle

Jack's Dad said:


> Well I think now that the Op has reserved a pup the discussion should shift to whether it should be an indoor or outdoor dog. Should they have fencing or let it roam? Crated most of the day or out in the yard. Sleep in the house or in the garage? What about those strange adults and small children entering the property? A warning sign or not? Anything else?





Lucy Dog said:


> Can't forget about which food to feed.


Geesh you guys..... both of you missed the most important one!? You're slacking.


----------



## Lucy Dog

chelle said:


> Geesh you guys..... both of you missed the most important one!? You're slacking.


When should i breed my dog? I'm stumped...


----------



## BlackGSD

codmaster said:


> So now we know what kind of temperament GSD that you seem to like and maybe strive for!
> 
> And you and everybody else on the forum and elsewhere has the right to raise their GSD to act toward people however they want to (as long as they are willing and able to deal with the consequences of course).
> 
> And then we wonder about the GSD's reputation?
> 
> Curiously, I do wonder how many folks who think having a GSD who will show (going just on what the OP said) totally unprovoked aggression to anybody coming near him would be ok if we switched the breed under discussion to the oft dreaded and feared PIT BULL? Just asking?


I believe what Clif was saying is that he and Chuck are striving for dogs like the one Clif posted the picture of being hugged by a child. Not "Cujo" minus the rabies. Which apparently what some folks think Ghost is.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lucy Dog said:


> When should i breed my dog? I'm stumped...


How about spay/neuter? I'm stumped too.


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## Jonro

***Removed by Admin. Please familiarize yourself with our board rules and argue your points without personal attacks and name calling.***


----------



## Lucy Dog

BlackGSD said:


> I believe what Clif was saying is that he and Chuck are striving for dogs like the one Clif posted the picture of being hugged by a child. Not "Cujo" minus the rabies. Which apparently what some folks think Ghost is.


Not too sure about that. I think he meant he strives for the temperament and trainability of a dog like ghost (genetics and all). A dog that can and will protect naturally. A dog that can be trained to do what chuck has trained ghost to do. 

Cliff... please correct me if I'm wrong. That's just how I took what you were trying to say. You're not always the easiest "nut to crack".


----------



## Liesje

codmaster said:


> Curiously, I do wonder how many folks who think having a GSD who will show (going just on what the OP said) totally unprovoked aggression to anybody coming near him would be ok if we switched the breed under discussion to the oft dreaded and feared PIT BULL? Just asking?


Likewise curious how many people on this forum think having a GSD who will show unprovoked aggression to anybody coming near him is OK? Not I...


----------



## Liesje

Freestep said:


> I'm assuming part of his guardian training involved bitework?


And since when is bitework "attack training"? I train bitework with multiple dogs and they are never, ever, ever trained or allowed to attack a passive person. I believe this is part of some PPD training but I do not and will not allow it. They may only bite a threat. A person that has been accepted onto the property by the owner and is showing no direct threat is NOT a threat.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Liesje said:


> Likewise curious how many people on this forum think having a GSD who will show unprovoked aggression to anybody coming near him is OK? Not I...


Not my cup of tea either, but based on what I've read here, this is what chuck intended ghost to be. He trained ghost to act this way to guard his property. He wanted this type behavior.


----------



## BlackGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> Not too sure about that. I think he meant he strives for the temperament and trainability of a dog like ghost (genetics and all). A dog that can and will protect naturally. A dog that can be trained to do what chuck has trained ghost to do.
> 
> Cliff... please correct me if I'm wrong. That's just how I took what you were trying to say. You're not always the easiest "nut to crack".


Yes, I too believe that Cliff breeds for a more "real" dog. BUT that isn't to say that they are crazy dogs that go around attacking people for no reason. They may be more "real", but STILL can make great family dogs.


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## Liesje

Then I guess we need to define "unprovoked". Is trespassing a passive activity or provocation of confrontation? I think I'd feel "provoked" if someone trespassed, I'd probably storm out my door and confront them.


----------



## Lucy Dog

BlackGSD said:


> Yes, I too believe that Cliff breeds for a more "real" dog. BUT that isn't to say that they are crazy dogs that go around attacking people for no reason. They may be more "real", but STILL can make great family dogs.


It's how the dog was trained to act for a purpose. 

I bet if you ask chuck what that dog would be like if he didn't train his dog to act like this and was just a regular "family pet" dog, I bet he'd tell you the dog would have been fine around strangers. 

I think that's the difference there. This dog isn't some wild human aggressive dog because of it's genetics. It's a guard dog because it was trained to guard it's property.


----------



## Rei

I am staying out of this discussion because I have nothing to say that has not already been stated in a more eloquent way, but this... 



codmaster said:


> Curiously, I do wonder how many folks who think having a GSD who will show (going just on what the OP said) totally unprovoked aggression to anybody coming near him would be ok if we switched the breed under discussion to the oft dreaded and feared PIT BULL?


makes no sense. Pit Bulls are not meant to be aggressive towards people even when the situation calls for aggression. The well bred bulldog can be in full fighting mode in the presence of another, but any human should still be able to enter the pit and pick up/manhandle the dog without any consequence (no redirected aggression). 

A friend of mine has some very well bred bulldogs and any stranger breaking into her house would and should be greeted by "tail wags and smooches" and play bows. That is a well bred working bulldog.


----------



## BlackGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> It's how the dog was trained to act for a purpose.
> 
> I bet if you ask chuck what that dog would be like if he didn't train his dog to act like this and was just a regular "family pet" dog, I bet he'd tell you the dog would have been fine around strangers.
> 
> I think that's the difference there. This dog isn't some wild human aggressive dog because of it's genetics. It's a guard dog because it was trained to guard it's property.


I hope you don't think I am saying that this is some psycho dog.
Me saying that about attacking people ect.... Was me saying what some OTHER posters obviously think.

Though I will say that many dogs with this type of breeding AREN'T all that great with strangers. Mean and nasty for no reason, not necessarily, lovey and cuddly with strangers, no so much. (And I personally don't see this as a bad thing!).


----------



## wyominggrandma

LucyDog, this is what Ghosts dad said in an earlier post, showing Ghost already had issues when he bought him at 11 months, so I imagine Ghost could probably not have been a regular family pet and able to be around strangers.

I purchased Ghost at 11 months old and he was well socialized during this time after he came to live in our house. Ghost had a defensive side to him already at 11 months old,


----------



## codmaster

KZoppa said:


> And thats fine but I've also said that I would prefer my dogs not fawn over and get excited about strangers. I would much prefer *they not seek attention from those outside the family*. When we are out in public, I am fine with people approaching and asking to pet them but I dont want them to be wiggly happy about it. *Tolerant is fine,* not the overly exciteable they are in reality. *I prefer that I dont want to be friends with everyone attitude* over the lab like attitude they have. When someone shows up at my door at 2am when my husband isnt home and my kids are in their beds sleeping and the dogs are all tail wags and lovey, thats not a perk for me.
> 
> Yes, i want my next dog to be my demo dog for when I am dog training which will be out in public and allow for *the dog to be approachable but not fawning over everyone.* I want my dog to focus on ME more than the attention they can get from strangers. I dont have a double standard. Yes, its important my dogs be socialized BUT to behave like labs in oober friendly personality is not 100% acceptable to me. I want the actual standard GSD personality. If i wanted a lab, i would have gotten a lab. I have GSDs because of the deterent factor but its really just not believable when you're constantly seeing "OMG SOMEONE IS AT THE DOOR!!!!!! HOW EXCITING!!!!!!!!!!!" instead of "hey, someone is at the door...."
> 
> I doubt I can explain my ideal dog to the satisfaction of most. I know what I want and what should be. *A well socialized dog is ideal but I also dont want or need a dog who looks to everyone we pass on the street during a walk or in a store as a potential attention grabber* like the two I have now do. *I want tolerant and accepting when I say its okay* but not focusing on strangers to the point of distraction.


 
*EXACTLY WHAT THE GSD STANDARD CALLS FOR!*


But, better a little too friendly /trustworthy than a dog who is overly suspicious/untrustworthy/uncontrollable! Many would be surprised by how their overly friendly GSD will react when they believe their owner is seriously threatened (not all dogs but some will react appropriately). 

Some forget that it is hard to be properly protective if one has to lock the dog away when strangers come to the house.


----------



## Lucy Dog

BlackGSD said:


> I hope you don't think I am saying that this is some psycho dog.
> Me saying that about attacking people ect.... Was me saying what some OTHER posters obviously think.
> 
> Though I will say that many dogs with this type of breeding AREN'T all that great with strangers. Mean and nasty, not necessarily, lovey and cuddly with strangers, no so much. (And I personally don't see this as a bad thing!).


I think this is why it's so important to go with a breeder that understands the genetics of the dogs being bred. To me, the dogs genetics is more important than what the dog was trained to do at a certain age. 



wyominggrandma said:


> LucyDog, this is what Ghosts dad said in an earlier post, showing Ghost already had issues when he bought him at 11 months, so I imagine Ghost could probably not have been a regular family pet and able to be around strangers.
> 
> I purchased Ghost at 11 months old and he was well socialized during this time after he came to live in our house. Ghost had a defensive side to him already at 11 months old,



"Ghost had a defensive side" is a pretty open ended statement. What exactly does that even mean? How defensive was he, in what situations, and with/to whom?

A pet dog can still have defensive or fight drive and still be a good pet. I think that's probably why ghost was given the job he has now, because of that drive.


----------



## BlackGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> I think this is why it's so important to go with a breeder that understands the genetics of the dogs being bred. To me, the dogs genetics is more important than what the dog was trained to do ......


:thumbup:


----------



## sparra

NarysDad said:


> But as most of you all know that when a pup goes into a home it's up the their new owner to keep the pup socialized and not the breeders fault if the said pup is 6 months old and decides to bite or be fearful of its surroundings


 Originally Posted by *Lucy Dog*  
_I think this is why it's so important to go with a breeder that understands the genetics of the dogs being bred. To me, the dogs genetics is more important than what the dog was trained to do ......_
(cause I don't know how to do multiple quotes:crazy

Do you think this breeder understands that?


----------



## Jack's Dad

Approachable by strangers. That has been brought up in this thread a number of times. What does that mean?
My dog is approachable as long as I am with him. 

I think he would/could bite someone who broke in while no one was home.

I would buy him a steak for that.

A couple of people didn't think that is o.k..

I'm not even sure what that means to some. Just how and when are they supposed to be approachable?

I know what's alright for me but there sure seems to be a wide range of opinions.


----------



## Lucy Dog

sparra said:


> Originally Posted by *Lucy Dog*
> _I think this is why it's so important to go with a breeder that understands the genetics of the dogs being bred. To me, the dogs genetics is more important than what the dog was trained to do ......_
> (cause I don't know how to do multiple quotes:crazy
> 
> Do you think this breeder understands that?


Regardless if I do or don't is irrevelant. I'm not a potential puppy buyer and my opinion is just as good (or bad) as anyone else's.

Hopefully the puppy buyer thinks he does.


----------



## Rei

Actually, I remembered 3 years ago, I made a very similar thread. I had visited a breeder to meet a few of the breeding dogs and hopefully the dam and/or sire of my next puppy. I got to meet almost all of the females but was informed by the breeder's daughter (breeder was out of state training or judging a trial, cannot remember which) that while I could meet one of their breeding males, I would not be able to interact with him. He was a fairly recent import from a very prominent and well known German kennel (a Salztal-Hohe dog) that she was training for competition. 

I did not think to ask why I could not interact with him (whether it was genetics, training, or simply how she preferred to raise him). What I did do was ask the forum, and yes, I was told by a few to avoid at all costs... ultimately I decided I trusted the breeder's experience and honesty enough to get a dog from them. The puppy I ended up getting was not out of that particular male (sire was not on premises, I only got to meet him the day I picked up the puppy), though I would not have had any qualms if I had to move my deposit to a litter sired by him. 

Very happy with the dog I got and with the breeder... very honest and truly knows his dogs. I took obedience classes at their training facilities and walked by the breeder with that Salztal-Hohe male once and didn't even know it until later. This weekend I was able to attend a Schutzhund trial at his club and saw several of the dogs sired by the same male. They were aloof but clearly approachable without any problems with being in a large crowd of dogs and people (including young children). Stable dogs, very nice to see in action, and the one that stood out to me especially was by that male. 

I expect and want certain things when I am getting a German Shepherd Dog, and I seek out litters and breeders accordingly. However, I understand that others do not necessarily share my preferences and my ideals, or have the same opinion of what the GSD is and should be. 

... so much for staying out of this LOL


----------



## Freestep

Liesje said:


> And since when is bitework "attack training"? I train bitework with multiple dogs and they are never, ever, ever trained or allowed to attack a passive person. I believe this is part of some PPD training but I do not and will not allow it. They may only bite a threat. A person that has been accepted onto the property by the owner and is showing no direct threat is NOT a threat.


I didn't say bitework is attack training. I assume that when you train a dog for guard work, bitework is going to be one aspect of that training. I understand that this type of training is going to be different than sport work, since a guard dog is supposed to work alone without the direction of the handler. I could be wrong and maybe the dog is trained only to bark and hold, or sit on top of the tresspasser and lick him to death. 

It was Narysdad's own comments that led me to believe that an intruder on his property would be attacked and bitten, but I'm not familiar with training for guard work. Please correct me if it does not involve bitework.


----------



## cliffson1

@ Codmaster....the dog in the pic that I posted IS one I bred. Same lines as Chuck, now let me see you critique that "type" of dog. How is that type of dog putting the breed in a negative light. Most people WISH they could breed that type of dog.


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## wyominggrandma

Defensive at 11 months can be as simple as growling at strangers to having already bitten 6 people. It depends on how the "breeder" wants it interpeted.
Remember, his male sired Ghost, then he was able to buy the dog back at 11 months for having "defensive" tendencies at 11 months.
Hmmm, genetic tendencies???? Breeder awareness or breeder denial?


----------



## cliffson1

@ BlackGSD....exactly! I was trying to show that dogs like that, which I procured both parents, are the pups that result...FROM THE DOGS I LIKE!! You get it, as for some others....Well the picture speaks better than what I will say!!!


----------



## Liesje

Lucy Dog said:


> "Ghost had a defensive side" is a pretty open ended statement. What exactly does that even mean? How defensive was he, in what situations, and with/to whom?
> 
> A pet dog can still have defensive or fight drive and still be a good pet. I think that's probably why ghost was given the job he has now, because of that drive.


Thank you!!! It's frightening how little people seem to understand about these terms that define our breed!!

Nikon started showing defense around 11 months. As I described him earlier, he is first and foremost a FAMILY PET. When doing bitework (BEING PROVOKED) he balances out more on the defense side than prey. Big whoop! But now this thread will label him an "attack trained" dog that will bite anyone who comes near him. Well, we kindly welcome anyone into our home that would actually like to meet and observe these dogs that we are making such sweeping judgments about....


----------



## Liesje

wyominggrandma said:


> Defensive at 11 months can be as simple as growling at strangers to having already bitten 6 people. It depends on how the "breeder" wants it interpeted.



No, defense at 11 months doesn't have to be anything close to those things. Growling at strangers? That's just growling at strangers. Doesn't mean the dog is defensive or not. For all we know an 11 month old dog growling at people just has a screw loose.


----------



## wyominggrandma

That is true. But it can also mean the dog had major issues at 11 months, which made it possible for him to buy the dog back, now nobody can even touch the dog, even while the owner is standing there or they will likely be bti, due to what the breeder says is "training". Which makes the breeder proud as can be.
I was just stating that because maybe this situation with the new puppy and the sire Ghost and the OP worrying about the temperament of the puppy COULD in fact be a genetic thing, since the breeder owns the sire of Ghost, bought him back at 11 months when he had "defensive" issues, and now the dog has been "trained" to bite anything that comes near him.......
I was stating that defensive could mean ANYTHING: from nothing at all to major temperament issues. I was not saying defensive has to mean one thing or another, its not a black and white thing.


----------



## cliffson1

:gsdhead:First, If the dog being that way is because of trainging as some of you have alluded to, then sorry ...training does not pass through the genes. So the puppy is not going to come into a house attacking babies because of training of the sire. 
Second, I breed for real dogs as the breed was intended to be....most go into family homes and do well....capable of sport, service, and in some cases police. One expert in this thread (NOT), a couple years ago on the forum told me they didn't think it possible to breed litters that had both police type dogs and good family pets in them....such is the intelligence level of some of the posters on this thread.
Finally, there is a lot of dialogue about the "gentics" of guard dog, and aggression dogs, and guard work, from people who haven't a clue nor experience about guard dogs, genetics of guard dogs, genetics in general, in most cases, and specifically this individual dog; to be giving such "professional" judgement......its a joke! Emotions and lack of real knowledge can cause people to make assumptions about quality of puppies that they know nothing about, and even question my understanding of the "standard"....(beyond a joke...lol)
I think many of you owe Chuck an apology, but that's my opinion.....he didn't deserve the ludicrous ASSumption, or judgements, from people with marginal knowledge of the situation and in many cases of the breed. 
Now you can flame me all you want, but I always consider the source of the flaming.
OBTW, the reason I am sometimes a tough nut to crack is usually because people don't understand what I am saying:growingtree:. Prolly because of the way I right!!!


----------



## Liesje

wyominggrandma said:


> That is true. But it can also mean the dog had major issues at 11 months, which made it possible for him to buy the dog back, now nobody can even touch the dog, even while the owner is standing there or they will likely be bti, due to what the breeder says is "training". Which makes the breeder proud as can be.
> I was just stating that because maybe this situation with the new puppy and the sire Ghost and the OP worrying about the temperament of the puppy COULD in fact be a genetic thing, since the breeder owns the sire of Ghost, bought him back at 11 months when he had "defensive" issues, and now the dog has been "trained" to bite anything that comes near him.......
> I was stating that defensive could mean ANYTHING: from nothing at all to major temperament issues. I was not saying defensive has to mean one thing or another, its not a black and white thing.



I'm agreeing to disagree then. Defense drive is just another drive. Major temperament issues are major temperament issues regardless of whether a dog is all or no defense. People keep taking one term and then substituting it for another when if you examine them objectively, there's nothing negative at all about defense drive. It's just another aspect of drives, like prey drive, hunt drive, pack drive..... 

And really the dog COULD be anything. It COULD be that if I went to visit he'd roll on his back and offer me his belly for a rubbing...who knows? No one but Chuck and Chuck seems perfectly content with the way the dog behaves and what he produces.


----------



## LaRen616

wyominggrandma said:


> which made it possible for him to *buy the dog back*


You keep saying that but I think Chuck bought Ghost and then later on he bought Ghost's sire. 

I might be wrong but I am pretty sure that Chuck had never even met Ghost until he purchased him at 11 months.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I know what drives are and what defensive means, thanks for the lesson though.
However, I did not describe Chucks dog as defensive HE did.... 
I just said that the description of defensive could mean MANY things, depending on how the term is USED..........


----------



## wyominggrandma

No, I said Chuck had Ghosts sire, which he stated in another post. He owns Ghost's sire and was able to purchase Ghost at 11 months.
That is what I said, I never once said Chuck bought Ghosts sire, I said he OWNED Ghosts sire and purchased Ghost at 11 months old, already defensive.


----------



## LaRen616

cliffson1 said:


> I think many of you owe Chuck an apology, but that's my opinion.....he didn't deserve the ludicrous ASSumption, or judgements, from people with marginal knowledge of the situation and in many cases of the breed.
> Now you can flame me all you want, but I always consider the source of the flaming.
> OBTW, the reason I am sometimes a tough nut to crack is usually because people don't understand what I am saying:growingtree:. Prolly because of the way I right!!!


I completely agree with you Cliff.


----------



## mysweetkaos

cliffson1 said:


> :gsdhead:First, If the dog being that way is because of trainging as some of you have alluded to, then sorry ...training does not pass through the genes. So the puppy is not going to come into a house attacking babies because of training of the sire.
> Second, I breed for real dogs as the breed was intended to be....most go into family homes and do well....capable of sport, service, and in some cases police. One expert in this thread (NOT), a couple years ago on the forum told me they didn't think it possible to breed litters that had both police type dogs and good family pets in them....such is the intelligence level of some of the posters on this thread.
> Finally, there is a lot of dialogue about the "gentics" of guard dog, and aggression dogs, and guard work, from people who haven't a clue nor experience about guard dogs, genetics of guard dogs, genetics in general, in most cases, and specifically this individual dog; to be giving such "professional" judgement......its a joke! Emotions and lack of real knowledge can cause people to make assumptions about quality of puppies that they know nothing about, and even question my understanding of the "standard"....(beyond a joke...lol)
> I think many of you owe Chuck an apology, but that's my opinion.....he didn't deserve the ludicrous ASSumption, or judgements, from people with marginal knowledge of the situation and in many cases of the breed.
> Now you can flame me all you want, but I always consider the source of the flaming.
> OBTW, the reason I am sometimes a tough nut to crack is usually because people don't understand what I am saying:growingtree:. Prolly because of the way I right!!!


I agree with all of that for what's it worth, which sorry may not be much. Kaos is an example of family/working dogs from the same litter. 2 of his sisters are (retired) working k-9 officers, and he is well just a pet:wub: There is a wide variety of types of home his parents pairing produced....sheep herding, police, SAR, you name it.



Liesje said:


> I'm agreeing to disagree then. Defense drive is just another drive. Major temperament issues are major temperament issues regardless of whether a dog is all or no defense. People keep taking one term and then substituting it for another when if you examine them objectively, there's nothing negative at all about defense drive. It's just another aspect of drives, like prey drive, hunt drive, pack drive.....
> 
> And really the dog COULD be anything. It COULD be that if I went to visit he'd roll on his back and offer me his belly for a rubbing...who knows? No one but Chuck and Chuck seems perfectly content with the way the dog behaves and what he produces.


Agree also....and did anyone ever think that maybe Ghost would take longer to warm up and appear to not like people, and maybe that is exactly what Chuck wants? So perhaps the dogs initial reaction and Chuck keeping people from interacting with him is his way of keeping his property safe? Just a thought...if someone who I didn't know was under the assumption Kaos would eat him for lunch, I wouldn't do much to change that perception...I prefer people think that.


----------



## onyx'girl

Had Chuck not come onto this board revealing he was the breeder in question, would it have mattered? 
I wonder if Steehead has been reading the thread....I do hope so, because it does give great information on what the breed should be. 
A GSD isn't for everyone and those that choose to keep this breed should know what they are getting into.


----------



## Doc

Where's the guy eating popcorn?


----------



## wyominggrandma

All I was trying to say was in Chucks own words , when he BOUGHT Ghost , he was already defensive at 11 months,. Meaning he used the words defensive, and I said that could mean anything. If I mixed up the that he bought Ghost first, then the sire, that has no difference in what I was saying, only that Ghost was "defensive" at 11 months. 
I guess if you are not in the proveriable "click" on this list, you can't possibly know anything about genetics, breeding, training or have any knowledge about dogs in general. Just because I don't support turning a trained "guard" dog loose without controls at night to roam free doesn't make me stupid or not know anything. As someone else posted earlier, if this was a Pit Bull or Mastiff, or Rottie that was trained as a guard dog and was turned loose at night to roam free and then attacked someone, everyone would be up in arms about it. But, because it is a "biggie" click member, then its okay.
Seems the OP bought a puppy from Ghost. That is good for the breeder, he makes some big bucks, I am sure on this. Hopefully this puppy will turn out like the new owner wants, a nice family pet. If not, I am sure he will be back posting about his "bad" puppy and everyone not in the "click" will tell him " I told you so", everyone in the "click" will tell him what a bad owner he is.
Have a nice day.


----------



## cliffson1

If you can't handle it ....change it and maintain the name, works for many!!!


----------



## wyominggrandma

I have no problems handing it, I like reading so much "knowledge" ... 
I just said it was too bad, because I am sure many many people are driven away from all the "experts".


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Doc said:


> Where's the guy eating popcorn?


You missed it. Cliff had a opcorn:and a  way back at the beginning of the thread.


----------



## NarysDad

wyominggrandma said:


> That is true. But it can also mean the dog had major issues at 11 months, which made it possible for him to buy the dog back, now nobody can even touch the dog, even while the owner is standing there or they will likely be bti, due to what the breeder says is "training". Which makes the breeder proud as can be.
> I was just stating that because maybe this situation with the new puppy and the sire Ghost and the OP worrying about the temperament of the puppy COULD in fact be a genetic thing, since the breeder owns the sire of Ghost, bought him back at 11 months when he had "defensive" issues, and now the dog has been "trained" to bite anything that comes near him.......
> I was stating that defensive could mean ANYTHING: from nothing at all to major temperament issues. I was not saying defensive has to mean one thing or another, its not a black and white thing.


All I can say about your comments are *uneducated ingnorance!!

*I purchased Ghost from another breeder not purchased him back!! Where the heck had I even said such a thing, And then later purchased his sire Narys Policia


----------



## LaRen616

wyominggrandma said:


> is good for the breeder, he makes some big bucks, I am sure on this.


How are you sure on this?

Do you know how much he charges?

Do you know that he helps people out when he finds the perfect puppy for them and they dont have the money at the time to pay for the puppy?

I couldn't afford Malice, I had to make payments on her but Chuck let me keep her with me even though I didn't pay a dime for her for a month. We worked it out between each other and I didn't even pay close to full price for her.

He definitly doesn't make alot of money off of this.


----------



## GSKnight

* yawn *

I see this thread being locked shortly... just say'n.


----------



## cliffson1

I don't think Chuck is in the "clique" on this forum whatsoever....another ludicrous statement. 
As for the clique, I'm not in the clique either, many like what I say and many hate what I say, I often disagree with moderators and establishment on board. The issue is the labelling of this dog and what he might do based on a couple of statements. Assumptions of people often reveal their knowledge of something because they show the thought process. Some of the most knowledgable people on this forum didn't bother to get involved in this thread.....Why???? I think in many cases its not because they don't have an opinion, but moreso because there is not enough information given to form a credible opinion. So they leave it alone. My position in this thread is to fight negative assumptions made....because I don't think it is right or fair. Often negativity comes from a lack of knowledge and experience, as in society where as people become senior they become more measured in their responses, and less judgemental...wisdom! Its not a clique thing, and whether a person has knowledge or experience is usually apparent by their responses. I just think people let their emotions run their mouth instead of their brain in some cases...not all, but some. I have no problem with someone feeling that the dog out all night is not what they would do...but to extrapolate all these extreme scenarios was unfair because you don't have a clue as to the dog or the validity of the scenarios. Comes from the same mentality base as those that think that sch will turn your dog into an attack dog....there are really people who believe this garbage. Their basis is often a mentor or breeder who knows little about Sch told them and off they go spouting this nonsense.This kind od mentality pervades this breed and only common sense and education will combat it. When I see people taking off in ignorance or assumptions, then I speak up. Opinions are fine, evrybody is entitled, but I would think most people reserve opinions until they know enough to be comfortable their opinion is accurate and supported by facts.


----------



## Liesje

wyominggrandma said:


> All I was trying to say was in Chucks own words , when he BOUGHT Ghost , he was already defensive at 11 months,. Meaning he used the words defensive, and I said that could mean anything.



But it doesn't "mean anything" to Chuck or a lot of people here.... it means a certain thing if you know the dog and the lines. I personally do not but there are several people here that do, they have direct knowledge of the dog and/or the lines and the types of dogs Chuck is breeding. Only the people that don't understand this are the ones reading way more into that statement/term.


----------



## cliffson1

@ Wyomingrandma.....I hope I am one of the "experts" you are talking about so that maybe I will stop getting so many pm's asking for advice. Thanks


----------



## IllinoisGSD

cliffson1 said:


> :gsdhead:First, If the dog being that way is because of trainging as some of you have alluded to, then sorry ...training does not pass through the genes. So the puppy is not going to come into a house attacking babies because of training of the sire.
> Second, I breed for real dogs as the breed was intended to be....most go into family homes and do well....capable of sport, service, and in some cases police. One expert in this thread (NOT), a couple years ago on the forum told me they didn't think it possible to breed litters that had both police type dogs and good family pets in them....such is the intelligence level of some of the posters on this thread.
> Finally, there is a lot of dialogue about the "gentics" of guard dog, and aggression dogs, and guard work, from people who haven't a clue nor experience about guard dogs, genetics of guard dogs, genetics in general, in most cases, and specifically this individual dog; to be giving such "professional" judgement......its a joke! Emotions and lack of real knowledge can cause people to make assumptions about quality of puppies that they know nothing about, and even question my understanding of the "standard"....(beyond a joke...lol)
> I think many of you owe Chuck an apology, but that's my opinion.....he didn't deserve the ludicrous ASSumption, or judgements, from people with marginal knowledge of the situation and in many cases of the breed.
> Now you can flame me all you want, but I always consider the source of the flaming.
> OBTW, the reason I am sometimes a tough nut to crack is usually because people don't understand what I am saying:growingtree:. Prolly because of the way I right!!!


Well put! It is the internet though, many people sit behind their computer and pretend to be subject matter experts on a multitude of things they're unqualified to answer.


----------



## KZoppa

If you're so dang concerned about who came first to Chuck, Ghost or Narys, why not send a PM to Chuck asking him yourself?! Common sense people. this shouldnt be a hard concept to grasp but it apparently is. 


"Agree also....and did anyone ever think that maybe Ghost would take longer to warm up and appear to not like people, and maybe that is exactly what Chuck wants? So perhaps the dogs initial reaction and Chuck keeping people from interacting with him is his way of keeping his property safe? Just a thought...if someone who I didn't know was under the assumption Kaos would eat him for lunch, I wouldn't do much to change that perception...I prefer people think that. "


The above is a common sense answer. Since Chuck has had a dog stolen previously and Ghost's job is to prevent that from happening again, it would be intelligent to, instead of assuming the dog is aggressive, how about thinking that people do have motives for how they do things. Chuck has stated that Ghost doesnt warm up to people quickly. No, he hasnt stated that in this thread. It has been mentioned elsewhere. 

However, given Ghost's job on the property beyond being a stud, would you want your dog warming up to those, who in the future, may or may not intend harm? We always say on this board how this breed needs a job to do. Well this dog has a job and he is handled in such a fashion to continue performing his job. Respect the dog and the distance the OWNER of the dog prefers. People come on here regularly in disbelief with just how dog stupid the rest of the population tends to be because they were out and this random stranger just comes over and hugs their dog or kisses their dog without even bothering to find out if the dog is friendly or not. They just assume. 

I also very highly doubt Chuck would allow Ghost the freedom to patrol in such a way if he truly felt Ghost couldnt tell the difference between a threat and a safe person. If i had a property guard, I wouldnt want people thinking it was okay to try and warm up to the dog either. We also all know some dogs are more likely to warm up faster than others and some are just not interested in making friends with someone they dont see regularly. 

Of course, naturally because someone doesnt handle things exactly like others would, they are automatically in the wrong for thinking differently. JMO from what i've seen repeated several times on this thread and out in the real world. Not everyone conforms to others ideas of perfection and those who fall short are wrong no matter what they do.


----------



## NarysDad

*Again Ghost was purchased as a 11 month old pup, NOT PURCHASED BACK BY MYSELF!!!Then came is sire ( father) a few years later*


----------



## wyominggrandma

I may not sit around and pat myself on the back, I may not spout all my knowledge, which I have learned in MANY MANY years of dogs and all type of dog training, breeding and dog sport and may not be as knowledgable as some of you say you are. 
Chuck, you don't know me, you don't know my experience, you know nothing about me. Obviously I am not as perfect as you are, do not say everything perfect as you do, but at least my mother raised me with manners and respect and I do not call others IGNORANT............


----------



## GSDElsa

Sorry, Cliff. You know I heart ya, but I think it's completely irresponsible to let a dog roam around night after night completely unsupervised. For any number of reasons. No apology from me.


----------



## lemans

cliffson1 said:


> :gsdhead:First, If the dog being that way is because of trainging as some of you have alluded to, then sorry ...training does not pass through the genes. So the puppy is not going to come into a house attacking babies because of training of the sire.
> Second, I breed for real dogs as the breed was intended to be....most go into family homes and do well....capable of sport, service, and in some cases police. One expert in this thread (NOT), a couple years ago on the forum told me they didn't think it possible to breed litters that had both police type dogs and good family pets in them....such is the intelligence level of some of the posters on this thread.
> Finally, there is a lot of dialogue about the "gentics" of guard dog, and aggression dogs, and guard work, from people who haven't a clue nor experience about guard dogs, genetics of guard dogs, genetics in general, in most cases, and specifically this individual dog; to be giving such "professional" judgement......its a joke! Emotions and lack of real knowledge can cause people to make assumptions about quality of puppies that they know nothing about, and even question my understanding of the "standard"....(beyond a joke...lol)
> I think many of you owe Chuck an apology, but that's my opinion.....he didn't deserve the ludicrous ASSumption, or judgements, from people with marginal knowledge of the situation and in many cases of the breed.
> Now you can flame me all you want, but I always consider the source of the flaming.
> OBTW, the reason I am sometimes a tough nut to crack is usually because people don't understand what I am saying:growingtree:. Prolly because of the way I right!!!


Yup, agreed.


----------



## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> I have no problem with someone feeling that the dog out all night is not what they would do...but to extrapolate all these extreme scenarios was unfair because you don't have a clue as to the dog or the validity of the scenarios.


Just speaking for myself... being paranoid, awful scenarios run through MY mind, and it's why *I* wouldn't leave a bite-trained guard dog to run loose in an unfenced area, but Narysdad can do as he pleases. I am not sure of the legality, liability, and general attitude about such things in the area where he lives, maybe it is more accepted where he is than where I am. In California, I could get my pants sued off if the dog gave so much as a scratch to an unwitting trespassser, especially if I didn't have a fence. But aside from that, I'd be worried about the dog's safety too.

If Ghost actually stays within the property line, is smart enough to avoid snakes, wild animals, hunters (I can just see some dolt shooting the "wolf"), poison, etc., plus has the discernment to know an ill-intentioned thief from a kid lost in the woods, then he is a VERY good dog and one I'd be proud to own.



> Comes from the same mentality base as those that think that sch will turn your dog into an attack dog....there are really people who believe this garbage.


But this dog wasn't trained in SchH, was he? He was trained as a guard dog, at least that's what Narysdad says. Is there not a difference between SchH and guard work? I *assume* (uh oh, there's that word) that guard work involves bitework, as it's a logical thing to assume and no one has told me differently. It was Narysdad's own comments that led me to believe the dog would indeed bite a trespasser. 

I don't know why people jumped to the conclusion that SchH dogs are attack dogs, I certainly didn't say or imply that. If someone tells me that guard dog training does not involve attacking people, I'll stop saying "attack dog" for emphasis when describing how the media would see this situation should something happen (God forbid).


----------



## Emoore

This thread has more plot twists and better smackdowns than professional wrestling.


----------



## carmspack

I breed for real dogs as the breed was intended to be....most go into family homes and do well....capable of sport, service, and in some cases police. One expert in this thread (NOT), a couple years ago on the forum told me they didn't think it possible to breed litters that had both police type dogs and good family pets in them....such is the intelligence level of some of the posters on this thread.
Finally, there is a lot of dialogue about the "gentics" of guard dog, and aggression dogs, and guard work, from people who haven't a clue nor experience about guard dogs, genetics of guard dogs, genetics in general, --- a CLIFF quote

.. It sure is possible -- . I see people have brought up "herding" quite a few times , and I sense that people think herding is a soft and fuzzy past time , moving "clouds". This is one tough job , constant vigilance, controlling , enforcing attitude , ready and able to apply physical force , self discipline, yield to imposed discipline , weather, muck , length of day. That is herding. Not the 20 minutes one time instinct test . At the same time there is a softness to handler , meaning being biddable and compliant , dis-obedient if the dog takes a different or better read on what to do to accomplish a task. That takes character strength.
The OP said the dog was "defensive at 11 months" -- that may mean he was bright and aware of his environment , barked when there was something unusual.
Question is "Is the dog stable" . Is he fearful , wrong, is he aggessive / reactive without reason , wrong , is he controllable , important and says much .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Emoore said:


> This thread has more plot twists and better smackdowns than professional wrestling.


Oh Emoore, Everybody knows pro-wresting is FAKE. This thread is REAL. Sad, huh?


----------



## Emoore

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Oh Emoore, Everybody knows pro-wresting is FAKE. This thread is REAL. Sad, huh?


Dude, it's not FAKE; it's SCRIPTED. 


#itsrealtomedangit


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Oh no you Didnt just call me 'DUDE" girlfriend! LOL!


----------



## carmspack

wrestling is Mallet --- Male Ballet !!!


----------



## gagsd

carmspack said:


> wrestling is Mallet --- Male Ballet !!!


And that is the funniest quote from this thread!


----------



## NarysDad

carmspack said:


> wrestling is Mallet --- Male Ballet !!!


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Emoore

carmspack said:


> wrestling is Mallet --- Male Ballet !!!


Now how do you pronounce that? Is the a short like in male, or long like in ballet? Or do you pronounce it like mallet the kind of hammer?


----------



## prophecy

Rei said:


> I am staying out of this discussion because I have nothing to say that has not already been stated in a more eloquent way, but this...
> 
> 
> 
> makes no sense. Pit Bulls are not meant to be aggressive towards people even when the situation calls for aggression. The well bred bulldog can be in full fighting mode in the presence of another, but any human should still be able to enter the pit and pick up/manhandle the dog without any consequence (no redirected aggression).
> 
> A friend of mine has some very well bred bulldogs and any stranger breaking into her house would and should be greeted by "tail wags and smooches" and play bows. That is a well bred working bulldog.


Very good posting,Rei.I own 2 pit bulls.One is the ''ILOVEYOU ILOVEYOU I LOVE YOU!'' type.(That is Munch my blue and white female) Bella(my other female APBT) was raised with all protection breeds(GSD/Doberman),and is more ''protective'' of our home when we aren't there.Not ''attack'' but a more ''vocal'' type.She barks at you until she knows your cool and THEN wants lovies.(so I have been told).More of an ''alert'' dog.She'd still help you walk out with about anything we own.Try and harm us?That's a differant ballgame.They ALL would protect us,if someone would try and hurt us.But I think the pits are the ''least likely'' to bite of any of ours.


----------



## carmspack

mallet rhymes with ballet -- glad you liked it , there's more where that came from 
Carmen


----------



## Jack's Dad

I wonder if Ghost can do mallet?
He looks a little more like MMA to me.


----------



## Emoore

Jack's Dad said:


> I wonder if Ghost can do mallet?
> He looks a little more like MMA to me.


He used to do mallet, but he chewed up his tights.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Emoore said:


> He used to do mallet, but he chewed up his tights.


 Good one emoore.


----------



## carmspack

maybe the plural of mallet is malaise (being out of sorts) , and when the tights are too tight then you want to be out of shorts .
okay too silly - must get fresh air


----------



## Doc

I have a idea. Lets make this novel contain some educational information. Why doesn't someone posts Ghost's pedigree and then have the ones that know the lines behind him, give us a run down on the good, bad, and ugly behind the dog? Some of us would appreciate what is known to be behind this dog before opinions can be made. Just a thought ... Besides, I'm out of popcorn.


----------



## pets4life

gsds act wierd when they are on their own turf it belongs to them 


forgive me if this has been said but did you ask how the dog is when it is off his land? like maybe in a walmart parking lot? lol


----------



## LaRen616

Doc said:


> I have a idea. Lets make this novel contain some educational information. Why doesn't someone posts Ghost's pedigree and then have the ones that know the lines behind him, give us a run down on the good, bad, and ugly behind the dog? Some of us would appreciate what is known to be behind this dog before opinions can be made. Just a thought ... Besides, I'm out of popcorn.


Chuck already posted his pedigree



NarysDad said:


> Yes this is usually the case with Ghost's litters. I usually have all pups reserved before they are 2 weeks old. Here is his pedigree and then you will understand why his pups sell quickly
> 
> Ghost vonhausmeyer - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## pets4life

robk said:


> yes i have seen the german shepherd standard, and no i would never pet your gsd. I think that people are too overly friendly with other peoples stuff. Its not right. There are certain things people should keep their hands off of; other peoples dogs (especially german shepherds), guns, motorcycles, wives, ect.



amen! I would not touch my dogs father the first day i met him who is a police dog either.


----------



## cliffson1

Now I wonder if a real shepherd should leave the sheep out in the valley or mountains, all day, unsupervised, with the possibility of bears, wolves, coyotes, etc.....I guess it would be pretty irresponsible of the Shepherd. Of course in the HGH test for herding there is a part in which the dog does bitework on an intruder....gosh, I have to rethink my whole view of this herding thing after being enlighted here!


----------



## NarysDad

Doc said:


> I have a idea. Lets make this novel contain some educational information. Why doesn't someone posts Ghost's pedigree and then have the ones that know the lines behind him, give us a run down on the good, bad, and ugly behind the dog? Some of us would appreciate what is known to be behind this dog before opinions can be made. Just a thought ... Besides, I'm out of popcorn.


Here is his pedigree so that you all don't have to fish thru all the trash this thread has created

Maybe Cliff or Carmen can explain his pedigree better than I

Ghost vonhausmeyer - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Jack's Dad

cliffson1 said:


> Now I wonder if a real shepherd should leave the sheep out in the valley or mountains, all day, unsupervised, with the possibility of bears, wolves, coyotes, etc.....I guess it would be pretty irresponsible of the Shepherd. Of course in the HGH test for herding there is a part in which the dog does bitework on an intruder....gosh, I have to rethink my whole view of this herding thing after being enlighted here!


This whole scenario wouldn't work out Cliff because all dogs are supposed to be in their crates in the house at night. Perhaps the sheep should be brought in and given crates also. Maybe even the coyotes etc...


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## pets4life

I just read the thread wow your ppd is lose with no fencing thats crazy lol I know usually coyotes are scared of strong forward gsds I mean arent u scared a hunter might shoot him? 


If someone one wants to kill him they can lure him out and or poison him. I am all for guard dogs and love pp dogs but thats pretty insane lol I thought you kept him in a fenced yard with a really high fence or a gaited area where he protected the other dogs kennels and your house i had no idea he was left open like a wild animal !


why wont your other dogs protect? why is he the only one that has what it takes? just curious/


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## ozzymama

I'm going to comment, not that I have anything valuable to say, but I read all 27 pages and feel left out.
In 16 years I am on my third dog and have never met any of their sires. Sandi's mother I met, but not with the pups, Oz we got at 6 months, Dolly at 1 year - it is possible the intact male she was running at large with was her dad, or her potential breeding partner, possibly her previous owners didn't know they don't season until 18mos - 2 years. When my parents bred dobes, the sires weren't on site, the bitch was...
However, as many know I grew up with Standardbred horses, one of the best mares we ever had was a daughter of The Meadow Skipper, she never wore a harness, big, black bitch. We bought her because her previous owners didn't pay her board, oh and she killed someone. She would strike, bite, kick - her first foal (oh yeah we bred her, daddy loves the crazy ones) went 1:58 to take her 2 y/o maiden in the 70s. She threw young speed, heart and tough mares, the colts weren't worth anything, but her mares, everyone made big bucks, yet grand progeny, sucked. Her mares, well her too, looked like studs, big, black, blocky, yet perfect gaits. Paced like dreams. But dirty tempers. So if I were serious about dogs, serious about blood lines, would I want to meet the sire, I don't know, would it send up a red flag, I don't know. But it was a good question from a new buyer and lots of food for thought for all of us.


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## selzer

I don't like dogs to be unsupervised in an unfenced area, even if they are trained to stay within the boundaries of your property. Yeah they can get shot or run over and that would be awful, but I would also worry about kids or teenagers that might be cutting through. No fence pretty much means that the access is there. Kids do not always respect property rights and boundaries. If they climb a fence and get bit by a dog, I see that as not being criminally negligent. 

I am not sure where you are located, but in Ohio, they can sue you regardless, but so long as you are not criminally negligent, they cannot throw you in jail if your dog bites someone. So for me personally, I feel good that some kid would have to figure out how to open my gate, or climb my fence, and then open a kennel to get eaten by my dog(s). 

If I just let my dog roam my property all night at will, then two things can happen. The dog can decide to take a chunk out of someone trying to come to my front door for a legitimate reason, or someone can notice the dog is there and if they get bit by any dog, they can say it was yours which, especially if it looks like you might be in a better position to pay off in a law suit. 

I can't risk it. My luck the jury would say criminal negligence and the judge would sentence me to jail, and then where would my other critters be? One trip ticket to the dog shelter? How could I live with myself? Couldn't. So I cannot risk it. If I lived on 160 acres and had sheep, cows, horses, etc. And I was out there working the farm with the dog all the time, yes, I probably would leave the dog loose to guard the farm. If at all possible, I would have the area around the house and barns fenced though.


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## pets4life

would hate to see the breeder get in trouble or lose such a good dog 

I am very curious about the other dogs that need protecting though

My pp trainer friend told me that the sleezy people that use pits for fighting are now using german shepherds to protect their high prized pit bulls from being stolen along the west coast never heard of gsds protecting gsds though!!! Since gsds themselves are the dogs that are doing the protecting lol


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## NarysDad

cliffson1 said:


> Now I wonder if a real shepherd should leave the sheep out in the valley or mountains, all day, unsupervised, with the possibility of bears, wolves, coyotes, etc.....I guess it would be pretty irresponsible of the Shepherd. Of course in the HGH test for herding there is a part in which the dog does bitework on an intruder....gosh, I have to rethink my whole view of this herding thing after being enlighted here!


Cliff the posts here just amaze me how members here think a GSD is suppose to be, I haven't heard one comment here talking about the genetics with this pedigree. Just all of what members assume about him. I would rather have my guys a bit aloof than to have them greeting you with all their tails wagging.

Were is that Ghost's genetics will produce shepherds that tear kids faces off? I know my boy well and all his traits. If I was to find him down the road at a another farmers house than I would say there is a problem. But I find him in his run every time I check on him

Here is a thread that can share what happens out here and why I have to feel the need to have ghost as a perimeter dog

Shepherds By Design K-9 Forum • View topic - What a Crazy Night

I would love to hear what you guy's think of the genetics behind Ghost and his pedigree


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## onyx'girl

NarysDad said:


> Cliff the posts here just amaze me how members here think a GSD is suppose to be, I haven't heard one comment here talking about the genetics with this pedigree.
> 
> I would love to hear what you guy's think of the genetics behind Ghost and his pedigree


Maybe you could enlighten the masses with your knowledge of Ghosts pedigree....you are the one breeding him and the one living with him. You should also share why you breed him to the bitches you choose, and what you expect and get out of his progeny. 
I think people may understand the genetics more if they here it from the breeder instead of ASSuming.

By the way, this thread has almost 7000 views....your kennel name sure has gotten exposure with this thread, Chuck!


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## Castlemaid

I just worry that if Ghost runs afoul with someone in the wrong place at the wrong time, then that is more fodder for the BSL people and the Anti-Protection-trained-dogs people. One more example for these organizations to use as proof that GSDs are dangerous and should not be allowed to be owned by the average citizen, let alone have the average citizen protection train their dogs. Then we ALL loose because of it. 

I'm all for the upkeep of this breed's genetic heritage, both in breeding and training and use of the dogs as working dogs, but we need to couple this to extra vigilence and a heightened sense of responsibility, otherwise we ALL pay the price. Even if Ghost bites a shady intruder that was trespassing with dishonest intentions, in today's society, the dog and owner will be found at fault, not the intruder.


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## onyx'girl

:thumbup: Lucia!

I won't forget what happened to Hex, either....


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## JakodaCD OA

I'll throw in my 2 cents and be on my way 

Honestly, I don't give a rats patooty whether someone leaves their dogs loose on their property, as I said before, it's their dogs their choice. Since it doesn't affect ME, or YOU (general you) and the owner isn't a 'newbie' , knows the risks, what's the big deal? I guess I don't 'get' why people are so fired up about it,,he's an adult he's had dogs for years, his choice.

I don't know Chuck, I'm not personally familiar with his dogs, and again, if he wants a man eating biting machine (being sarcastic here),,that is HIS choice as well. Does any of that "affect" anyone here? 

Honestly, I don't care about Ghost's pedigree, I don't care if anyone would like to pick it apart, he is what he is, as most dogs are. Why pick it apart?? To find some gosh, genetic component that may make Ghost a man eater(again I'm being sarcastic). 

It's real simple, you don't like his dogs, you don't like him, dont buy a dog from him. 

I think time is better spent taking care of and loving what we have in our own backyard

*Just want to say, this is not a bash towards anyone or dog, it's just this thread has gotten so ridiculous to me. 

Go hug your dogs


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## Jack's Dad

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents and be on my way
> 
> Honestly, I don't give a rats patooty whether someone leaves their dogs loose on their property, as I said before, it's their dogs their choice. Since it doesn't affect ME, or YOU (general you) and the owner isn't a 'newbie' , knows the risks, what's the big deal? I guess I don't 'get' why people are so fired up about it,,he's an adult he's had dogs for years, his choice.
> 
> I don't know Chuck, I'm not personally familiar with his dogs, and again, if he wants a man eating biting machine (being sarcastic here),,that is HIS choice as well. Does any of that "affect" anyone here?
> 
> Honestly, I don't care about Ghost's pedigree, I don't care if anyone would like to pick it apart, he is what he is, as most dogs are. Why pick it apart?? To find some gosh, genetic component that may make Ghost a man eater(again I'm being sarcastic).
> 
> It's real simple, you don't like his dogs, you don't like him, dont buy a dog from him.
> 
> I think time is better spent taking care of and loving what we have in our own backyard
> 
> *Just want to say, this is not a bash towards anyone or dog, it's just this thread has gotten so ridiculous to me.
> 
> Go hug your dogs


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## cliffson1

Amen!!


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## Cassidy's Mom

JakodaCD OA said:


> Go hug your dogs


No, no, no! They're supposed to be _aloof_, you can't go around hugging them!!! :lurking:


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## Freestep

JakodaCD OA said:


> Honestly, I don't give a rats patooty whether someone leaves their dogs loose on their property, as I said before, it's their dogs their choice. Since it doesn't affect ME, or YOU (general you) and the owner isn't a 'newbie' , knows the risks, what's the big deal? I guess I don't 'get' why people are so fired up about it,,he's an adult he's had dogs for years, his choice.





Castlemaid said:


> I just worry that if Ghost runs afoul with someone in the wrong place at the wrong time, then that is more fodder for the BSL people and the Anti-Protection-trained-dogs people. One more example for these organizations to use as proof that GSDs are dangerous and should not be allowed to be owned by the average citizen, let alone have the average citizen protection train their dogs. Then we ALL loose because of it.


This is the only reason I am concerned about what other people choose to do with their dogs. Other than the dogs' welfare, that is.


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## JakodaCD OA

Debbie, your to funny)) Ok I can hug MY girlie, but don't you (general you gosh don't want to offend anyone),,try it,,she'll rip your face off)) or should I say nose bite,,she IS a nose biter , but I am told it is genetic)


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## lhczth

I think this thread has more than run its course. 

ADMIN Lisa

*****


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