# Puppy Fear Period



## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

I am curious about your opinions regarding the first puppy fear period (supposedly starting at about 8wks)?

I received this puppy development sheet from the breeder I may be getting a puppy from next April (if sire,dam, and mother nature cooperate in Dec). She says she prefers to send pups home at 7wks prior to the fear period. I'd always been under the impression that 8wks (no sooner) was the appropriate time for puppy relocation. 

Here is the exact quote from the sheet:
"5.	OPTIMUM LEARNING 8TH THROUGH 12 WEEKS 50-84 DAYS. PUPS EXPERIENCE FEAR PERIOD DURING 8TH THROUGH THE 10TH WEEKS AVOID ANY TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE SUCH AS PLACEMENT WITH NEW OWNER,SHIPPING,OR EAR CROPPING. NEW EXPERIENCES MUST BE NON-FEAR PRODUCING. PROPER TRAINING AND SOCIALIZATION SHOULD CONTINUE. EACH PUP MUST RECEIVE INDIVIDUAL ATTENTION ENTIRELY AWAY FROM ITS DAM AND LITTERMATES. SOCIALIZATION WITH OTHER DOGS BECOME IMPORTANT. OPTIMUM TIME FOR LEARNING."

I'd love to hear opinions on this. Agree? Disagree? Why? Experiences? 

Thanks!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ear cropping??!!That is a very strange "fact sheet".None of those things are facts!Puppies do generally stay with mom and litter mates until 8wks,it's important they have positive interactions with their environment until 16 wks,they really can't socialize much until their immunization series is complete 12 to 14 wks.Fear periods may or may not occur and are not confined to early puppy hood.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There is a school of thought that goes by the early shipping to avoid the 8 week fear period. Fact is that a solid pup with good nerve and self-confidence will take shipping all in stride and not consider it traumatic. Many many people right here on this forum had puppies shipped at 8 weeks, and they came out of the box tail-wagging and ready to meet their new owners and take on their new world. 

Some people use the excuse that the pups were traumatized at 8 weeks to excuse fearful and nervous temperament. Don't buy in to that. 

Though shipping a pup at seven weeks should be fine. 8 weeks or older is better because they get to spend more time with their littermates and mom (assuming the rest of the litter hasn't been shipped out yet), and that helps in social development, but overall, if you have a solid dog of good breeding and good nerve, it won't really make a difference in the long-run.


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

Yeah, the ear cropping was a tad strange to me also. I figure this was clearly found elsewhere and not edited for GSDs...Not sure how I feel about that, but...

I'm more stuck on the fact that everything I was brought up believing about when it is (and is not) an appropriate time for pups to leave mom is in question here...I've always heard/read/been taught exactly as you stated, Dogma. 

And if there is such an important fear period that can potentially begin at 8wks, what am I supposed to do and not do? Obviously the things stated are potentially traumatic..but wouldn't this be a highly individual thing? Surely the list doesn't end there??...

I'm just a bit boggled by all this. I had heard more commonly of dogs going through some type of a fear stage closer to 5mos or thereabouts...but this is new to me...


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> Though shipping a pup at seven weeks should be fine. 8 weeks or older is better because they get to spend more time with their littermates and mom (assuming the rest of the litter hasn't been shipped out yet), and that helps in social development, but overall, if you have a solid dog of good breeding and good nerve, it won't really make a difference in the long-run.


Exactly what I was thinking-particularly the last sentence! Thank you for your input...

But in the points before this one regarding the fear period, the sheet says as follows:

"4.	49TH DAY 7 WEEKS OLD THE PUPPY HAS NOW REACHED THE FULL ADULT CAPACITY FOR LEARNING, BUT OF COURSE, NOT THE EXPERIENCE. DOMINANT PUPS SHOULD BE SEPARATED FROM LITTERMATES AND EACH OTHER. MOTHER SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO THEM UNDER SUPERVISION. SHOULD NOW BE SEPARATED FROM ITS MOTHER AND LITTERMATES. IDEAL TIME FOR PLACING THE PUPPY WITH ITS NEW OWNER."

I just don't get this..?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sounds like the breeder has copied this info straight from a book about breeding/training.It's just one opinion and apparently the breeder supports that view.Mom usually is separated from the litter for the most part as they are being weaned.Separating dominant puppies,idk.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not sure what the 'full capacity for learning' refers to? 49 day (7 weeks) is supposed to be the milestone where pups have grown into the personality they will have, and that is the time that many breeders will do temperament testing. 

Before that, pup's personality is in flux - they can be curious and outgoing one minute, reserved and shy the next. Dominant, beating up on littermates one day, submissive and avoiding the next day, then back to being in charge, etc - all normal part of puppies growing up. Normally, by the time they are seven weeks old, their personalities have 'set', and what you see is what you get. This is why puppy testing and the breeder picking puppies for the owner gets done at seven weeks. Of course, it's not written in stone - some pups still develop and change some as they mature some more. That was the case with Gryffon, who at seven weeks old, still varied in behaviour and temperament from being a lazy un-interested in anything type puppy one day, to being an over-the-top driven maniac the next. This pup was held back for further observation and he found a nice in-between balance between his extremes as he got older. But placing him at seven weeks would have been problematic - he would have been too-much dog for a pet home, but a bit too laid-back for a serious competition/working home. 

I've never heard of breeders separating the dominant pup from the rest of the litter - I would be interested in hearing what some other breeders think about that.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

I never experienced a fear period with my pup. I socialized her like mad from the day I got her (8 weeks) with everyone and everything, and she never showed signs of being fearful of anything.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Socialization is very important but so is getting it right!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html

I pretty much do this with every dog/puppy I work with...the walk part not the rest. 
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

I also never believed in "tricking" my dogs into letting people into there space, why that is a good policy can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs


Don't remember which part but it's in there, Michael Ellis on the Fear Period.


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

Lucia, thank you. You've always been a great help on here. The info you offered cleared some things up for me...I, too, would love to hear others input in regards to separating dominant pups and the reason behind it. 

I'm just going to gather that a well-bred pup that comes from a line of 'solid', even-tempered dogs plays a large role in how much potential one may have for a 'fear period'? Or am I way off base with that?

Chip, thanks for the links. The thread on socialization has been a favorite of mine for quite some time! I know I've seen the Leerburg bit on 'who gets to pet your puppy' before...so much info to take in. It can be overwhelming at times  !


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

Dogma, thank you also. At least we're all a bit curious about the separation 'bit'. 

You haven't mentioned if you experienced any type of a fear period with your pups?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

My current dog (now 2) never had a fear period, certainly not at the 8-12 week mark. He was confident and curious, not bothered by dogs, people or surfaces of any type. I would think if a pup has less than stellar nerves, then ensuring that they have no negative experiences as long as possible probably would help them.


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

I agree, Galathiel. Beautiful pup, by the way!!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Malachi'sMama said:


> Dogma, thank you also. At least we're all a bit curious about the separation 'bit'.
> 
> You haven't mentioned if you experienced any type of a fear period with your pups?


Samson was neutral with strangers until he was 5 mths old and one day he suddenly became fearful and would bark at anyone he saw in the distance and move behind me and growl if someone was close by.He also became fearful of cars passing by when were walking in town.
Over the next few months I did manage to get him to the point where we could walk near traffic and be near strangers.We continue to make progress with counter conditioning ,and classes in a controlled environment have helped immensely.I won't elaborate on training right now since that's not what you asked&#55357;&#56833;
In Samson's case it's not a "fear period" it's what he's genetically predisposed to.As he approaches the 18mths mark I'm now seeing him become territorial of the house and yard (a whole other subject!).But still that's a another manifestation of keeping the evil cars and people away that are not part of his pack.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I was thinking about my 3 GSDs as puppies. I knew all three of them when they were 7 weeks old, but didn't take any of them home until they were between 9 and 10 weeks old. What I saw with each of them at 7 weeks, is exactly the dog I ended up with as an adult.

Carly and Russell both owned the world at 7 weeks, and at 5 years and 2 1/2 years they are still bold and confident. Sage at 7 weeks was so silly, but aloof to strangers (and by aloof I mean she ignored everyone except me, even family members), and at 5 years old she was the same. As far as fear periods go, right after I got Russell, we were hit by a tornado. For days we had helicopters flying over the house, and all sorts of crazy activity non stop. He took everything in stride. All three of the GSDs are related, so I guess I chalk this up to genetics. And a breeder who was very hands on and encouraged her puppies to try everything.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I think your right. It probably has more to do with genetics then anything. Neither one of my 2 ever went through a fear period and they were both shipped at 9 weeks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Malachi'sMama said:


> I'm just going to gather that a well-bred pup that comes from a line of 'solid', even-tempered dogs plays a large role in how much potential one may have for a 'fear period'? Or am I way off base with that?


Nope I don't think your way off base, But I do tend to think, your getting pretty close to "analysis paralysis!" 

My first dogs all my males were Dominate Dogs and my female was a Balanced dog. Balanced dogs are what by and large people tend to "think" are at Dog Parks and they are not the ones out there causing the problems...but the others...submissive and Dominate are out there also!

Victim's and Bullies...trouble is afoot!

I knew nothing of "Solid Temperament" or "Fear Period" before I came here?? I just "happened" to make good choices with my dogs! The Dog Park thing was a no brainer! Clearly my "BullMastiff/APBT/Lab was not going ot be a good fit out the gate! So "ignore" other dogs it was! After lots of work, he proved to be excellent around other dogs! 

But back on point....a hidden advantage (as I see it) of getting a Dog with "Solid Temperament " is there ability to "withstand" clumsy solicitation by the unknowing! 

A bad encounter of any sort...is just something that happened on that day at that time...nothing to dwell on...let's get on to business...it's all good, is how they roll! 

I think we tend to call that a dog with a "Solid Temperament" here, other places call it a "Balanced Dog." Such dogs are simply easier to deal with and much more "resilient" to handler, mistakes!

I only had two goals with my first dog! I did not want him hurting another dog and I had his back! The first was easy, no Dog Parks no, I thought my Dog was friendly people?? Clearly mine was not!! The second well...don't put him in "bad situations" the uncontrolled chaos of a Dog Park?? Yeah, not happening!

So I was cautious with People, I controlled his encounters and just started doing that with the others to follow. As it turned out my BullMastiff/APBT/Lab had no "people issues" neither did my Boxers and Boxer Pitts. 

Then my first WL OS GSD arrived! Just a furry dog with a (for me) funny face!
Yeah, not so much! Seven months of "no" issues (that I saw???) and then the old "my dog changed, thing" High-Rank drive and Human Aggression??? It was time to run with the big dogs or get off the porch as it were! 




Malachi'sMama said:


> Chip, thanks for the links. The thread on socialization has been a favorite of mine for quite some time! I know I've seen the Leerburg bit on 'who gets to pet your puppy' before...so much info to take in. It can be overwhelming at times  !


 Yeah "Leerburgh" he can be a bit much! I found that info "because" of my GSD's people problem! Leerbrurgh has good information and then he goes off on a wild tangent! In essence, that article simply restated "for me" to do what I had been doing anyway! *Control the space, around my dog and keep "issues" out of his face!" *You take away the crap and the "attitude" and that is what you get from the artical! 

I never saw the "rest" of the advice myself?? I didn't care, at the time I was doing it, I did not even have an awareness that it was actually what I had always been doing, anyway?? A couple trainers on here had alluded to problems with the article, but they never explained what they were?? 

In another thread when I mentioned "Who pets..." Lou Castle" took the time to explain what the problems were! 

Then I saw it! And now I give notice! 

The only other thing I have found that is close is also in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

In the link above is this:

https://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2...or-working-with-fearful-dogs-by-nicole-wilde/

Pretty much the same advice! But in as much as it's from the "Fearful Dog Blog" I tend to think most folks would say well "I don't have a fearful dog...so what's the point??" 

Yes, it can be a bit overwhelming, and I'm not sure I make things better or worst?? I try and filter out the crap for people and post sources based on my experience or the experiences of trainers I respect! Most of whom work with dogs with serious issues! And then I do a ton of explanations from a "Pet People" (of which I am a member) point of view!

I feel it's all fairly simple, but it looks like a lot because it all gets compacted into a small space! 

In that vein sorry to say but I gotta couple more need to know! "Sit on the Dog and The Place Command!" Just ask and I can put them here as a "custom order" as it were! 

Don't know maybe I just do a "Stuff to Know" thread or something like that?? :crazy:

Well off to Boxerforum for a bit, silliness abounds there but they are getting it!


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> I was thinking about my 3 GSDs as puppies. I knew all three of them when they were 7 weeks old, but didn't take any of them home until they were between 9 and 10 weeks old. What I saw with each of them at 7 weeks, is exactly the dog I ended up with as an adult.


Thank you, Dog!! This is encouraging!! haha

and Chip....

Awesome response. And yup..I'm incredibly guilty of being extremely over-analytical-I get bogged down in details. I admit it. I hate it. Haha..

You summed it all up perfectly. I greatly appreciate you taking the time you did w your comment, and sharing your experiences w your 'gang'! You definitely made things 'better' for me (in this case, lol!)..I'm going to take a look at the links you shared. I'd like to think I've read practically every thread on here in regards to fearful dogs. But this 'fear period' and actually having a fearful dog (seem to be) two different things. Some of the info def carries over and no doubt can be applied to both situations, I'm sure. 

In terms of Leerburg, I agree wholeheartedly. It seems any time I've had a specific issue I wanted to address w my dog, I could usually find (through sometimes hours of sorting through not-needed vid) I always found info I was looking for. And generally either ignored the rest, or made mental note if it was something I could refer back to in the future. 

In any case..a big THANK YOU 

and do that 'stuff to know' thread!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Malachi'sMama said:


> Thank you, Dog!! This is encouraging!! haha
> 
> and Chip....
> 
> ...


Out think your dog! Learned that from Boxers! 

As I say "Bailiff" introduced the concept of training an "off" switch into a dog! I asked some questions and once I understood, I was on the hunt! I just looked for a way to break it down for "Pet People" that's what I do! 

And Leerburgh yeah rather complicated lots of good info and lots of crap also! I also took what I needed and ignored the rest! But I needed to have someone "spell it out for me, that I was doing that!" So...thank you Lou! 

Yes a lot of info but by and large for those that can train their dog themselves? I try and cover solid information from folks that know what they are doing! The Internet, is a" big place" and for newbies it all looks pretty much the same??

I try and make so people can stop searching and start working!

And yes a lot of overlap with Aggression and Fear! I recently learned that a "true" fearful dog is uh...unpredictable! Got lucky on that one! 

I think a subset of "fearful" is an "unsure" dog...much easier to deal with! But that would be a subject of another thread!

Good luck ask questions and I will say it seems to be you have good instincts, I think you'll do just fine!


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## kiwixlshepherd (Jun 19, 2014)

what would be the best age to ship if its a 12 hour flight and some quarantine ?


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