# Did Electronic Collar Make Your Dog Paranoid At First?



## equinesoul7294 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hello,

I have a male GSD that is really quite well behaved for his age (just under 2 years). We've had him for about 6 weeks, and really our biggest problem with him is that when he is in the yard, he is constantly barking at us if we are walking around the parts of the yard he can't reach on his cable. (No, he doesn't live out there on it, just goes out for short periods on nice days).

Anyway, it's one of the only times he will not listen to a verbal "no" and obviously I am not close enough to issue a leash correction. So, I decided to try an electronic collar to help attempt to phase out this behavior.

I fitted the collar properly, used it on one of the LOWEST settings possible. The instant he barked, I hit the button. I did not HOLD the continuous button, but used the NICK button, which lasts all of 1 second. He yelped and immediately began looking at the ground for the next two hours, sniffing around and jumping at leaves and the tags on his collar.

I brought him inside later, took the collar off, and all he did was pace around. I then put him in his spot (a blanket in the corner of the room with a leash attached to the couch)because he usually calms down there. He would not even lay down once I attached the leash. He even jumped and yelped one time when it clinked against his tags.

I mean, I hit the button ONCE and had previously tried it on myself (it's not my intent to hurt him).
It's like he is convinced just from the one light zap that it's somehow connected to his normal collar and/or leash. 

MY QUESTION (and please no judgement here): 
Is this normal while they are trying to figure out what happened and will go away in a day or two? Or are we looking at developing neurotic behavior over one correction?


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

First of all, what obedience have you done with your dog prior to introducing the e-collar? I worked with my dog on on-leash obedience for over 2 months and he had on-leash obedience solid before I introduced the e-collar. If you've only had him for just 6 weeks and haven't done any other work with him, I would not even consider an e-collar yet.

It also doesn't sound like he's been correctly introduced to the e-collar. I had to condition my dog to the e-collar a lot first so he understood how to "turn off" the stim. It took a lot of work in the beginning before I could depend on the e-collar as his sole corrective device.

I use the e-collar like leash pressure. So when I introduced it, I walked him around the training center with the e-collar, prong collar, and leash in my hand. When I applied pressure with the leash, I also applied continuous stim until I released the pressure on the leash and immediately let go of the button. I worked on that for probably a week or so, just working on having him associate leash pressure with the e-collar and learning that when the leash releases, the e-collar releases.

He also wears the e-collar continuously around the house, even if he's not misbehaving or in training, so he doesn't associate the e-collar with training or corrections. It's just there and if he misbehaves, he gets the stim and when he does behave, the stim goes away.

I would not use the e-collar as correction again until you have properly conditioned him to the e-collar, which may take several weeks, especially if he has had a negative experience with it. If you have not used the e-collar before, I'd suggest getting a trainer involved, particularly since it sounds like he's developed some bad associations with the collar and you will now have to work through that in addition to obedience training.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

It sounds like you created a superstitious behavior that happens when the collar is not introduced properly. The reaction is not normal. I'd advise to not continue it the way you have.


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## equinesoul7294 (Nov 8, 2014)

Apparently no matter what I do, I screw up everything I touch relating to the dog. 

He was introduced to the collar, but no, not for weeks, just a few days. And he's been wearing it most of the time for days without it being on. Today is the first time I even pressed a button and it was ONCE at the exact moment of the behavior and on the LOWEST setting.

I do not see how hitting the "nick" button once for a low 1/2 second correction was wrong. I'm using it like I would a long distance "no" or leash correction.
I'm trying to extinguish this one particular behavior. I see how you would train like you mentioned for walking on the leash, but I don't see how that relates here.

Every dog's first time IS their first time with the static correction. THERE HAS TO BE A FIRST TIME FOR EVERY DOG, no matter how you intro it. You know what I mean? How does anything prepare them for that first little "nick" other than just doing it?

So, I don't get it. Why am I wrong for hitting the button that is supposed to be the point? Otherwise, why a stim collar at all? He needs a long distance tap on the shoulder when he does this behavior.....

I guess I'm just stupid in the eyes of the GSD forum masters.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Seek an experienced trainer to help you out. It's much easier for you and easier on the dog. Without seeing the dogs behavior in person and his reactions and inspecting the collar first hand, your better served to get some help. It's not rocket science but can be a little unnerving for the owner if they have never used one. 

You can also visit Lou Castle's web site on e-collar training. If you do this, read the whole site.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

That's not a normal reaction though, so it makes me think that something in the conditioning or handling of the e-collar went wrong. I was sharing my experience with training my dog on the e-collar only because I didn't have any negative reactions from him when I introduced it in conjunction with obedience (and I am also working with a trainer on it), and I can also use the e-collar as a long-distance correction.

I'd find an experienced trainer who has worked a lot with e-collars to get first-hand advice and assessment of the situation.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Not all E-collars are created equally so the lowest setting on nick may have been far too much for your dog. He doesn't understand the collar, has no idea where the correction came from and probably doesn't understand WHY. I agree with others, find someone to help you introduce the collar correctly.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

equinesoul7294 said:


> I do not see how hitting the "nick" button once for a low 1/2 second correction was wrong. I'm using it like I would a long distance "no" or leash correction.
> I'm trying to extinguish this one particular behavior. I see how you would train like you mentioned for walking on the leash, but I don't see how that relates here.
> 
> Every dog's first time IS their first time with the static correction. THERE HAS TO BE A FIRST TIME FOR EVERY DOG, no matter how you intro it. You know what I mean? How does anything prepare them for that first little "nick" other than just doing it?


This is the key. If this is the first time you nicked the dog, how did you know that was the right level for the dog? By intro, it is about teaching the dog what the nick mean, not just wearing the collar alone. 

The way my dog was introduced is in a non-distracted environment (not when the dog is already amped up and you want to correct the dog) starting from a level the dog can't feel till a level the dog first felt it. Then you teach the dog how to turn it off by using commands the dog already knows. It is only after that it should be used to correct the dog for unwanted behavior because by then the dog understands what the nick means and how to turn it off without developing superstitious behavior of what itself think it means (like the leaf on the ground, whatever is nearby). 

It doesn't have to take weeks or months for the dog to learn it but it is more than just nicking the dog and hope he knows what it means. 

You can learn the details from a trainer or doing lots of your own research. What I described is the general idea.

I wish you and your dog much success!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

He probably didn't know WHY it happened and by his erratic behavior he is trying to undrstand what hit him. Very sad. His response sounds completely logic to me.
Try the clicker for his good behavior instead.


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## Waffle Iron (Apr 3, 2012)

I personally don't care for electronic collars. I think they're medieval. I'd rather try more conventional methods of training. More work, but you'll form a better bond with your GSD that way and it'll pay off over the long haul.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Bear L said:


> This is the key. If this is the first time you nicked the dog, how did you know that was the right level for the dog? By intro, it is about teaching the dog what the nick mean, not just wearing the collar alone.
> 
> The way my dog was introduced is in a non-distracted environment (not when the dog is already amped up and you want to correct the dog) starting from a level the dog can't feel till a level the dog first felt it. Then you teach the dog how to turn it off by using commands the dog already knows. It is only after that it should be used to correct the dog for unwanted behavior because by then the dog understands what the nick means and how to turn it off without developing superstitious behavior of what itself think it means (like the leaf on the ground, whatever is nearby).
> 
> ...


In the meantime until getting a trainer, there are some good videos on YouTube with other professional trainers showing how they introduce and train dogs with the e-collar. The trainers I watched the most are Sean O'Shea, Tyler Muto, and Jeff Gellman. Watching their videos first really helped me to get more familiar with the e-collar before I got the first lesson with my trainer, so it wasn't such a foreign tool by the time I worked with Archer.


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## equinesoul7294 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you for all the responses so far. His basic obedience is fairly solid. I think I just screwed up the first nick by setting it to 2 instead of 1 to start with. It all happened so fast, I was more concerned with the timing than starting at the bottom line and working up. I did not really feel it on 2 (it goes to 100) when I was testing it on myself and he has ALOT of hair so I screwed up and assumed something I shouldn't have. I think he's a super soft dog in terms of this type of correction, too, which makes my mistake worse. 

But at least they forgive. I tried to do it all right. I'm not new to training, just to e-collars. Researched and watched videos for weeks in advance and still messed up because I assumed and got in a hurry to catch the behavior. I would never intentionally hurt my boy 

To those that say to try positive reinforcement/clickers instead, I am almost purely a clicker trainer when it comes to obedience. But my problem is the distance with this behavior. (barking like mad at me when I'm outside and he can't follow me everywhere). How do I teach him anything when he's half a football field away from me? 

If you have an idea how to correct his barking at me from a long distance like that, I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear it. All I could think of was a bark collar (don't like because you have no control and I don't want him to think he can NEVER bark) and the electronic collar. I can't think of a positive reinforcement in this case.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Bear and I have the same trainer  I will eventually be using the ecollar to help with my dogs screaming and barking at a distance. But first, we are going through all the steps bear mentioned. 

And I will say, this is the fourth dog I have conditioned to an ecollar and I am still going to a trainer to help me to make sure I do it correctly!!!


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

In those trainers I mentioned, I think all three of them have videos on introducing the dog to the e-collar and finding the working level, which as someone else mentioned, is finding the lowest level to which he will respond. I can only slightly feel my dog's lowest working level around the house, but he responds to it so I have no idea how but he is more sensitive to it than I am.

What e-collar are you using, out of curiosity?


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## equinesoul7294 (Nov 8, 2014)

I have an Educator 300 (formerly Einstein, as I've read). Seems to be an awesome unit.
I have a trainer that we're starting with in January that specializes in the breed and Schutzhund, among other things. 
I just made the mistake of thinking I could do this one myself.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I haven't really used one myself, but I think that when people are saying that you have to condition them to know what the nick means by using obedience is so that they know its a correction. 

So you get the dog into a heel position and start heeling/working on different commands. If he doesn't respond to something asked for, you would then use the collar for a correction so that the dog understands when he feels the nick it means he wasn't doing what he was asked. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the basic idea. Then he knows its a way to say, no this is not what I wanted. 

Though I definitely think a professional is the better route to go, especially with something that is considered one of the "higher" correction methods out there. I hope you guys can get things sorted out. Maybe try staying nearer to him when you are outside with him unable to reach you for a bit and give him a quiet command, then click and toss him some high value treats when its quiet? Just for an idea maybe to start smaller and work up to larger distances? 

Since he's only been with you for a bit over a month and is a full grown dog, he could be concerned when you are away. You are the good thing in his life that is now his pack. Not knowing where you are when he's outside could be a very upsetting thing for him. My dogs always like to stick close to me when we're out and about. If they get too far, they come back and if I'm not moving, they will stay near me. They want to be with you rather than away.


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

I use a dogtra 1900. had great results. I would say the most important thing is to use it on a low setting. I have it right above a level that he completely ignores. Using the collar will often (speaking from my personal experience) just excite the dog even more. I use it to break a negative fixation on something or to stop a very disruptive behavior. I only use the nick button, like you do. Never continuous

If you use the collar and you give him a low level zap just act calm and normal. Don't be staring at him and acting like oh my god is he going to freak out? Just act like nothing happened.

Another bit of advice, make sure the collar is fit firmly on his neck. If it's loose you may give a stimulation that doesn't connect with his neck. Then you may think the setting is too low, turn it up, and have it connect on a too strong level.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

equinesoul7294 said:


> I have an Educator 300 (formerly Einstein, as I've read). Seems to be an awesome unit.
> I have a trainer that we're starting with in January that specializes in the breed and Schutzhund, among other things.
> I just made the mistake of thinking I could do this one myself.


That's the same one that I have. I've been really happy with it so far, and it's the same one that my trainer has used for years until she started to try out one of the new collars from the same brand.


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## equinesoul7294 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hours later and he is still acting all paranoid and jumping at nothing. I think he thinks it's his tags on his collar or something..
Won't walk around the living room like normal and is completely avoiding his normal "spot" where his blanket is.
Obviously I put the e-collar away immediately. If I just resume normal activities/routine, will he go back to normal in a day or two? Or have I broken my dog and made him forever neurotic by a correction I couldn't even feel on my own hand?


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Maybe take his collar off or the tags off of his collar for a bit and see how he acts? If he starts to calm down, you at least know what he is associating the stim sensation with. They make little tag holders that keep them from jingling.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In another thread I mentioned that I worked with two Great Danes who had been shocked by the underground fencing system and were froze when taken outside. They would not move, only on leash because it happened when they were off leash.
I would leash him and keep him with you for a couple of days, get him a new collar, other tag to make him "forget" what he thinks that caused it.
Start rewarding his good behavior instead of focusing on the wrong behavior. I was serious when I mentioned clicker training. And contrary what Tigerv's advice is, I would ditch this torture device for him.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

equinesoul7294 said:


> Hours later and he is still acting all paranoid and jumping at nothing. I think he thinks it's his tags on his collar or something..
> Won't walk around the living room like normal and is completely avoiding his normal "spot" where his blanket is.
> Obviously I put the e-collar away immediately. If I just resume normal activities/routine, will he go back to normal in a day or two? Or have I broken my dog and made him forever neurotic by a correction I couldn't even feel on my own hand?



Take a deep breath. It's ok. Mistakes are going to be made. It happens. Now we just move forward. No biggy. 

Keep the ecollar on him. 

Start positive reinforcement near and around his bed. Like he has never been stimmed. Just go back to basics. He will get over it. 

You created a superstitious response. It happens and is not uncommon. 

Go back to correct introduction of the stim on an ecollar. Teach him what it means and how to stop it, not when he is doing something undesireable. Use it in conjunction with praise and positive reinforcement. Every stim MUST be followed by praise for correct behavior. Do not use the collar to correct. Use the collar to guide. 

Once he understands what the stim is and how to turn in off, then you can use it for other things.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Can I ask why you have the dog tied away from you instead of with you? I usually always have my dog with or around me at home. If it's a situation that's potentially dangerous for him, he's then kenneled. Just curious. 

There is some good advice in here. My dog is much harder. Very forgiving. I've made plenty of mistakes, but my dog lets me know in a different manner.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

equinesoul7294 said:


> But my problem is the distance with this behavior. (barking like mad at me when I'm outside and he can't follow me everywhere). How do I teach him anything when he's half a football field away from me?


I see a different problem here ...

I see you expecting your dog to happily stay on his chain in the backyard while you do stuff away from him. THAT's not the problem! 

BUT, you are expecting him to be quiet, when you haven't built up to it. THAT's the problem. 

How solid are his down / stays? And by this I mean, can he stay in a down / stay for 30 minutes in the house with distractions and not break it? Can you leave the room and he's not trying to follow you?

If he can't do that, then your expectations are too high for your dog right now, you haven't trained him to give back what you want. 

I would work on the down / stays in the house, get them rock solid - with distractions, you leaving the room, leaving the house and coming back in two minutes later (or 5) and he should still be in that same position. Once you have it a "bomb-proof" down / stay for 30 minutes bring him outside and start working on it there. 

In regards to the e-collar - I'm not against them at all, but your method of introducing it to the dog was off (as you've been told about 20 times now on this thread!) But, live and learn, and move on. Your dog will too, BUT it might take a while for him to get used to the e-collar. 

If you really want to train using the e-collar (as a training tool and NOT just as a correction) then put the e-collar on the dog, and it's not ON! and have him wear it for about a week or two ... make sure you play play!!!! He should never be associating that e-collar with a correction. 

I worked with Kyleigh with an e-collar .. and whenever I pulled it out, she ran towards me, instantly sat and waited for me to put it on - no fear there! She knew it meant we were going to train / work ... and she was thrilled. 

Good luck,


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## shantinath1000 (Mar 18, 2014)

I agree that you have created a superstitious response. There are some great videos by Michael Ellis on using the e-collar. He talks about the difference between actually conditioning the dog to the collar (understanding what it is telling them VS simply being used to wearing it.) They are available from leerburg but they are a bit expensive. You could check out bowwow filx- a net flix for dog training videos, they have them too I think. Good luck and don't forget that all mistakes can be eventually corrected.


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

equinesoul7294 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a male GSD that is really quite well behaved for his age (just under 2 years). We've had him for about 6 weeks, and really our biggest problem with him is that when he is in the yard, he is constantly barking at us if we are walking around the parts of the yard he can't reach on his cable. (No, he doesn't live out there on it, just goes out for short periods on nice days).
> 
> ...



I'm coming in a little late on this one, but I have two dogs, a gsd and an Alaskan malamute.... My gsd has levels ranging from 6 when she is in a quiet environment, to 50 when her prey drive kicks in..... And my malamute would die if you hit him at a 6. His correction is 2. I would check the feel of it myself if I were you. Put it on your leg and make sure it's working as it should. Go through the levels and look for small movement, eye twitch, ear flick.... Even if it is at 1. I always make sure to start at 0 with my malamute, he is very fearful and would break so easily. My gsd is tough..... Unfazed by anything she doesn't WANT to be fazed by. I'd also work on making the e collar a good thing. Treats, toys, car rides etc. both of mine come running when they see the collar, never fear, always tail wags


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The biggest mistake that you made was in removing the Ecollar, thus removing the chance that the dog would learn what REALLY caused the stim to occur. Right now he's not sure, and is attributing it to all sorts of things, hence the nervous behavior. You've seen first−hand the danger of going too high with the Ecollar, ESPECIALLY with a green dog, one that has no idea what the stim means. 

I wish that you'd followed some of the earliest advice you got on this, that given by jafo220, to visit my site. That was the 5th post in this thread, about a week ago. I saw that advice and didn't contribute to the thread, thinking that you'd do as suggested and get the solution to your issue. 

To prevent barking, I'd suggest that instead of using an Ecollar, that you use a bark collar. Especially in the early learning stages with a dog that has never had any Ecollar experience. I know that you said that your timing was perfect, but I've heard people say this before, only to discover that their definition of "perfect timing" was a bit off. A modern bark collar will be faster, no human reaction will beat their circuitry, AND what is vitally important, more reliable at stimming at EVERY bark. If you're out doing something, sooner or later you'll either be late with the stim or will miss one entirely. This inconsistency will cause confusion and that's what you've got now. 

Bark collars are easy to use, the ones that I recommend come with easy−to−follow instructions and you wouldn't have gotten the results that you have now. They don't require the advice of a professional or expert. Try clicking on THIS LINK for some advice.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I think a lot of posters here are spot on with superstitious behaviour.

Not comfortable myself using an e-collar simply because I dont know enough about it...

But from what I understand from my continuing education on its use... (I like to get a full understanding about a tool before I use it... Please correct me if I am explaining this wrong.. Again Im trying to learn myself)
Is that you have to make sure the dogs understand that the collar stim is coming from you... And not from a tree or leaf on the ground...

Ussually you would use leash corrections first... then leash corrections with the ecollar.. And only when the dog breaks a known command... He needs to understand that 1) the correction is coming from you.. 2) why he is being corrected... (so these interventions with e-collar should only come after the positive reinforcement training)

So you basically create distance on corrections over time... He needs to generalise that all corrections are coming from you... If he does not understand this, and he is getting shocked can cause a lot of confusion...

I mean imagine you were getting these shocks down your neck... and didn't know why... You would be totally paranoid... You would probably visit a Neurologist in a panic... Whilst if you were at a physical therapist doing TENS Electic stimulation... And you knew it was coming from the machine/physical therapist... You wouldn't be worried at all... 
This is based on principles from Michael Ellis/Ed Frawley.

Anyways. There are much more experienced poster on these forums.
Just my two cents.


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## GSDzimm (Dec 13, 2014)

Also, just to add - putting a dog on a chain creates frustration and is often used to ENCOURAGE a dog to bark. Think back-tying, but also in dogs that need some confidence building. Going straight to the e-collar for something that the dog doesn't understand can be a bit confusing. Everyone has given you great advice - with a proper introduction I think your dog will figure it out.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Just found this also by Michael ellis.. great lecture.. On introducing electic collar

He also talks about a scientific based study on cortisol levels in Malinois comparing withholding rewards (negative punishment), prong collar, electric collar.. Very Interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDZqVpGVy60


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

This is a very informative thread and very useful for anyone who might be contemplating the use of an e-collar.

equinesoul7294...I greatly appreciate your forthrightness and hope you continue to update us on the process...many others will benefit from your experiences.

Lots of good and interesting advice...especially from those who are trying to help.

SuperG


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