# Aggression only at the vet?



## manther21 (Aug 12, 2008)

Took Abby to the vet today. She wouldnt let them look at her ears and stayed behind me in the corner. When it came time for the shots they put her on the table and 2 of us had to hold her down, with me holding her mouth shut. The vet said they will not see her again unless she is muzzled. He said her aggression is far worse than it was the last time. Mind you, the last time she was there they were taking stitches out of her nose from a biopsy they had done.

Abby is such a good dog anywhere else. She is very friendly to other dogs and people on walks. My parents have even taken her for an hour long drive to go to a softball tournment when we were out of town. She did awsome there with no problems. We take her atleast once a week to a care home to visit family and say hi to as many people as we can. We also take her to the pet store as often as we can to socialize. My husbands buddy came over with his 14 month old child and Abby let him pet her and put his fingers in his mouth.

Am I getting upset over something so small? I have seen this vet for over 11 years with my cats and Abby. Is it worth looking into a vet that comes out to your home for visits? 

Any insight would be appreciated. I got so upset while at the vets office.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

When your dog is hiding behind you in the corner, that is not aggression...that is FEAR. And my guess since the vet made the comment "her aggression is far worse than it was the last time" that she is picking up on that and is reacting.

I probably would find a new vet. I would take her into the vet to get her weighed and pick up her flea med/heartworm once a month. Take her in and let the people pet her. She'll soon associate it with a good place.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I say find a new vet... 

you are upset at the vet's, so is she... The vet was probably expecting aggression since he said it was worse THIS time, and she most likely picked that up as well, his movements... She also must associate him with pain, not good, on top of his attitude. 

I think for Abby I would find a vet who knows how to treat a dog with fear aggression... 

As Jax said, let her go to a new vet a few times and find out it's a fun place! Let everyone give her treats, and if the vet isn't busy perhaps she/he could come say hello as well. 

I am fortunate to have a lovely vet, who is very understanding. 

P.S
I think your vet ought to have prompted using a muzzle before putting the owners in danger, he didn't know if Abby would turn on you for restraining her in that manner, some vets will even offer a mild sedative if the dog is truly getting panicked, though I would avoid that if possible.

I might have misunderstood you completely and the vet wasn't being snippy, if so, sorry if I made him sound that way! But if someone I am paying WELL to give my dogs care seems unprofessional or uneducated I would find a new one... My vet is awesome, he takes his time and gets the dog to trust him. He came to our house to put our 16 year old down and is always willing to give his time and advice.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I'm with the others, think about getting a new Vet. I could be wrong, but aren't most adult GSD's examined on the floor??? The reason I'm saying this is that it might make a fearful girl even more fearful (feeling out of control) up on that stainless steel table. Maybe Abby would feel better with someone that came to the house...I would try to find someone who trys to be your dogs friend and works with positive reinforcement to help her work thru her fears.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

IMO, there is nothing wrong with muzzling your dog for a vet visit. My last GSD was 125 pounds - many techs and even the vet were a little wary of treating him occasionally, even though he was a total love without an aggressive bone in his body. A big dog like that can do a lot of damage in a hurry if reacting to pain. I often offered to muzzle him when I saw that a tech was nervous with him. BTW, my dogs NEVER go on the table. They are too big and that alone can cause/increase anxiety.

The question is - if you have only had cats at your vets before this GSD, do you get the impression that this vet is not as comfortable or patient with your dog? If that is the case, and you are not seeing aggressive behavior anywhere else, you might want to consider a change. If the vet is nervous, he/she is transmitting that to the dog, and this does no one any good. (It does concern me that your dog is clearly exhibiting fear and your vet labeled it as aggression).

If you like this vet (and even if you decide to make a change), it would be a good idea to start some training and desensitization/counter-conditioning. Start at home by teaching the stand command if you haven't already done so. Then work on stay in the stand position. Then begin to pet/groom her in that position. As she becomes more comfortable, do what the vet does - check her ears - look at her teeth - run your hands all over her body - raise her tail - pick up her feet. When she is VERY comfortable with all of that, ask someone else she knows well to do the exam - when she is VERY comfortable with that - ask someone she doesn't know so well - and on and on.... Do this every day if you can until it becomes boring, boring, boring. Take her to the vet's office regularly. Make it a wonderful experience. Ask the receptionists to give her treats and make a fuss over her if she will tolerate that. Weigh her and what ever else you can think of. Try to make a trip to the vet's office a wonderful thing.

You should feel that your vet is working with you - that he/she cares a lot about you and your dog - and that you are counseled on behavior problems - not admonished. If you don't feel that way - make a change. It's a really important part of your (and your dog's) life.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

All our dogs are examined on the floor. The one thing I noticed with our boxers is it's all in how you approach them. If the vet and tech come in and ignore them then it goes much better. If they come in and head straight for them it's muzzle time. I think the muzzles just make them more anxious.

Jax is a completely different story. I took her in and out of there every chance I could. Just to weigh, get cookies, pick up monthly meds. She's a dream at the vets.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Yes, the vet sits next to Dutch on the floor, an we've never been asked to put them on a table... I think it would certainly make the dog feel MORE uncomfortable, a full grown GSD on one of those small vet tables must be a bit scary. I know mine don't like being on anything that isn't big enough to walk around on that is above ground.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Rayden is always examined on the floor as well.
Our first vet here in AR, we visited twice. They were ok with him. But on the third visit, we saw the new vet at the clinic. The woman opened the door and JUMPED backwards. She actually moved against the opposite wall across the hallway and yelled "Im not coming in there until he is muzzled" I said that he had never needed one and was perfectly calm and co-operative. She informed me that shepherds were dangerous and it was only a matter of time until he bit someone and it wasn't going to be her. 
I took his leash walked out the door and didn't go back. I called a friend who is the canine officer for the Sheriff's dept and asked where he took Shady. The people there are great! Rayden has never been muzzled nor have they ever hinted that he should be. He had his scrotum drained (too hyper after his neutering); he just laid on his side and never moved and this was a vet that he had never seen before! He's had blood drawn, stool samples, all the regular stuff. Stitches taken out, etc etc. His only hang up is that he wants to chase the resident cat at the clinic.
I still get angry when I think about that woman wanting to muzzle him.
And if anyone wonders, I did let the old clinic know why I left. They told me that the new vet had met with the other vet and they had agreed that all large dogs must be muzzled. 

If you are uncomfortable with the vet, your dog will pick up on that as well.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have had vets do the exam on the floor and on the table. I prefer the floor dog is more comfortable. I don't have a problem with a muzzle. I suggested it for Havoc. He had so much stuff done to him as a pup that he is afraid of the vet. Everyone can relax when he is muzzled including me. 

We just moved and Havoc goes to the new vet for the first time on Tuesday. Max has already been and there were no problems. The staff and vet were great. We will see how the handle Havoc.

My old vet worked hard with Havoc's reticence. Your vet should work on using positives when he deals with Abby too. Obviously she has made a negative association and is afraid and she uses whatever means (aggression) that she can to try to escape it. 

You could consider just making trips in there to let her hang put and get lots of food and you can find a new vet and work from the ground up with a positive association with someone else.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

My two are always examined on the floor. There is no way I am trying to pick them up to put on the table even if I can. Z is scared at the vet, and given the chance he will hide behind me on the bench- to avoid this, I simply do not sit down. Nadi is fine at the vet, altho due to her being nippy with people I watch her very close. My vet is very good in that she always talks to them while taking care of business. She lets them smell and check out the stethoscope before she listens to their hearts, and praises them for behaving. The gal out front....she is a dream!! She always gives them treats and encourages extra visits to make them more relaxed. Even if we just stop in for a weight check, she takes time out to treat them and it is a very busy vet office


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

My vet has this table scale where Jake is asked to step on scale to be weighed which he does with no prob.Then they flip a switch and scale starts to go up like elevator-he hates that and gets snarky.I think there is just bas much lack of communication between dog and vet as there is between human and doctor.I like my vet but sometimes it is kinda 'this is the way we do it'Versus asking the owner this is what comes next -what is the best way to do this with your dog.Vet or human doctor-things are sometimes not the best they could be.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

serious question, why does the scale go up? I've never seen one like that, guess I just don't see the purpose of it?? 
I've seen small ones on the table, with basket, for puppies and small cats. the others have all been floor pads with the digital readout farther up the wall at eye level.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

the scale goes up because the scale is ALSO the exam table!I had to say to my vet and the tech at end of exam 'do not make table go down he will jump off himself and this table movement is upsetting him.'I actually kinda like this vet -just like I kinda like ' my personal physician. Both Jake -and myself think that sometimes a lack of communication can be a problem.Also would add both vets and human docs have pressures that make communication a secondary priority.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Dainerraserious question, why does the scale go up? I've never seen one like that, guess I just don't see the purpose of it??
> I've seen small ones on the table, with basket, for puppies and small cats. the others have all been floor pads with the digital readout farther up the wall at eye level.


I've seen one do this, it served as a table when it went up...


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogthe scale goes up because the scale is ALSO the exam table!


Our vet has one of these also.

Otto has been a little snarky with one particular tech becuase she cut his nails in december and made him bleed - from more than 3 nails. Idiot. So now that tech tells the others to muzzle him. It makes him very angry and he gets it off as soon as they turn away. The vet himself NEVER has asked me to put the muzzle back on, just to hold his face. I've spoken to the vet's wife - she's a tech but mostly the office manager - about the tech who made Otto bleed. Keep hoping she moves along sometime soon...


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

The others are right about Abby picking up the aggression from the vet. Also, she probably would be much more comfy on the floor. Zappa is always looked at on the floor. The vet sits next to him and gives him belly rubs while doing his examination. His techs also do this for Zappa. I have never once been asked to muzzle Zappa.
Dainerra, don't you hate it when anybody just assumes that your dog is dangerous just because it's a GSD? Most of them are great big babies.
As far as the vet, I would definately recommend finding a new vet for Abby.


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## manther21 (Aug 12, 2008)

I guess I should be more specific on what the vet said. He really didnt do or say anything to Abby once she was off the table. He only talked to me about what harm can come from a dog that bites and she would maybe have to be put down if I was sued or something. I have been very confident with him for so long and always talked good about him to her. He didnt mention that I could bring her in for just a quick visit to try and get over her fear. He just said some dogs are too afraid. That was it. He said once the muzzle is on they usually calm down.

My lasting impression with their office today was here is your receipt and the muzzle will be $10 extra a visit or I can buy one myself. He only pushed that. I didnt even get a thank you for coming in and spending all that money. He didnt even say bye to Abby or get on her level to say good girl. He is older and doesnt like to get at their level, this is why they put her on the table. I guess he didnt really want to help.









I didnt know if it was just me or if most dogs are like that. Or if I have done something wrong with her. We let strangers come up to her and pet her. She has been doing 90% better with listening to commands and we have praised her out the wazzo for it.

We went to another vet office for her training (which my current vet suggested today I do again) and some doggy day care for her. After talking to my husband I think we are going to call them and ask if they will work with her on her fear.

Thanks for the advice. We will get through this for the better for all!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wow, I never heard of charging to use a muzzle...Onyx has to be muzzled at the vet. No big deal, I bring my own or if I forget they have them available. 
She got this way after her spay...I wonder what happened to make her fear the vet after that. I switched vets and this one is a calmer atmosphere, but I still muzzle her anyway. 
At the old vet, I did the swabs of her ears and the vet just gave her treats, spent about 1/2 hr with her just sitting on the floor, no touch til about 15 minutes in, then just pets-very positive and calm. We did this 2 x's to get her over her fear, but it really didn't do any good, Onyx hates to be handled by them, period. I never told her it was ok or comforted her, that would be saying it was ok to be fearful. I didn't correct her for her growls either, then she may not growl to warn and then bite, I ignored the behavior as did the vet.
One female vet in the practice was afraid of Onyx and we always requested the more calm one after I saw the reaction of the vet when Onyx went off on her after her spay(next visit). She left the room and didn't return! A tech came in and finished up w/ us.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mauser had been to the vets office a good 4-6 times before he actually had anything done to HIM. He went with for most of Banzai's trips and went for weigh ins and treats from the staff.

The first time HE actually had anything done to him he knew the vets and was very nonchalant about the whole thing. The vet examined him and gave him his Rabies shot and he never even flinched.

It is SO critical to take puppies to the vets for VISITING and socialization BEFORE they have anything "scary" done to them.

Personally, I would find a vet that will exam the dog at the DOGS level - that makes it less stressful for the dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

that is kind of cool about the table. but I can see how it could be really scary for a dog! esp if it's a sudden start and stop. Rayden took a bit to get used to elevators in his SC training. He was a bit unnerved by the sudden movement. If he was on a slippery small table, who could blame them for being scared?

Jagger yes! I was so ticked off I couldn't see straight. She didn't even get into the room! and for the techs and other vet to back her up just rubbed me the wrong way. No "he's never been a problem" or anything. it was a blanket rule for all dogs over (I think it was) 25 lbs? maybe 35? it was a while ago. She did say that GSDs were among the worst though. I asked if she had ever met a well-bred one as I was gathering my stuff. She actually scrambled farther down the hall as we walked out, like she was afraid he was going to leap up and eat her.

If I had thought of it, I would have told her I hoped she got eaten by a pack of rampaging chi's. There was one in the waiting room with a BIG Napoleon complex lol


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## LukesMom (Jun 12, 2009)

I must have a really weird dog. My vet's office has the table that lowers and raises so he can stop at whatever height is good for him(it is not a scale). 
When we go in the exam room and the table is raised, Luke will put his front feet up on it and look at me like " I can't get up there Mom". As soon as it is lowered he steps right on and waits for it to go up. He also likes going to the vet's office. They always give him treats. I have also taught him "hold" means to hold his head still will I look at his teeth, ears etc. This also works at the vet's office.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm with everyone else. You shouldn't have been dealing with 'aggression' all this time.

You should have been dealing with the fact your pup is afraid out of it's mind. And MOST of our dogs when that terrified are going to act exactly like your pup.

Many vets just







me off. Because, instead of from the start recommending owners bring in treats and yummy food for the owner AND the vet and staff to start feeding out from the first moment a pup ever steps in the door. They just expect our dogs to LOVE being poked and prodded with no TRAINING and SOCIALIZATION and getting a pup to normalize what can appear to be a very traumatic situation.

I even visit the vet and waiting room when I don't even have an appointment! I just go an hang out in the waiting room (with my bag of treats) and just feed them out. Visit with everyone coming and going. Ask the staff to come to us to give out the treats. Then we just leave! No further than the waiting room.

Sometimes we'll throw in a 'go to the back to get weighed' (with the treats) and then just leave!

So we have visits with no pain, no poking, no prodding, no being pinned down and feeling they have no control.

So then when we DO have a regular visit it's almost EXACTLY the same. I always bring a baggie of REAL treats. Always get there early to hang out in the waiting room and relax. Always have the staff pet and treat her. And I feed out the treats during the exam.

Does this mean we may not have to muzzle my pup, just in case if she's acting weird? No. But does it mean I'm actually muzzling a dog that is actually fairly comfortable with the location, staff and situation (and full of treats). Absolutely.

Once we have gotten a terrified pup from bad experiences, we can only try to make it a bit better and may not ever be able to get a dog that is really ok at the vets.

Like ALL socialization in ALL locations. Better to think out of the box and prepare our dogs before there is a situation. Then having to back peddle and try to fix a problem that has cropped up.

Socialize Socialize Socialize, everywhere you can think of and more.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

There are some vets that are naturally good with animals, and some that the dog just doesn't like for no apparent to us reason. It's not always only about socializing. 

My experience with Anton (I did socialize at vets since he was a pup, though): -one regular vet he's fine with. 

-Emergency vet he tolerated and let her do the full exam even though he was hurting and saw her for the first time. She was a great doctor, no baby talk, no treats (understandably) but he liked her.

- Third vet was a very bad experience, Anton didn't want anything to do with him and the visit was a nightmare (I had to muzzle him, was told to see a behaviorist because he's growing into a dangerous dog). 

-Forth vet visit, again a new one, was a nice surprise because Anton was a love bug with the doctor and didn't have enough of her attention (even though he had a full exam, a shot and his anal glands expressed, not the most pleasant procedure). 

Third and fourth vet visits were within 2 weeks time frame. What I have noticed that Anton absolutely prefers female vets to males and does require some time spent on establishing contact with him, otherwise he acts not fearful but rather







.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

What I love about our vet is he talks with you before he does anything to the dog. They'll be on the floor walking around and he casually pets them as he talks to me, asking how they've been, etc., letting me show them their tricks before he even does any sort of exam. Usually the tech is in there petting them and loving on them during this time.

Then after they've calmed down to "new person in the room!" he'll get down on their level and love on them and then do the exam/shots. Followed by a yummy treat. It's all very laid back and I've found the at least five minute conversation in the beginning with him while he basically ignores them really helps.

But then I've been to vets who walk in, grab the dog and just do the shots exam which seems to make the dogs way uncomfortable. I never went back to these type of vets.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

From your last post, I still stick with "find a BETTER vet."
It seems obvious he is misreading her, and tat lone could cause her unease. He might be wonderful at what he does, but so are many doctors that I will never go back to - because of their attitude. 

When J is nervous everyone at my vet's office tries to give him treats and calm him down... They even allow me to take him to an empty waiting area to work on training, which always takes his mind off of being scared.
The vet talks to him throughout the exam, makes no fuss about the shot(s), and then strokes and tells him he is such a good boy afterwards. 

Hope things work out for you, a bad vet trip is very stressful for everyone!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i don't think its unusual for a dog to be nervous at the vets. but also keep in mind some vets don't have a good concept on dog lauguage and behavior, believe it or not. my youngest almost got my vet in the face after he proceeded to just walk in the room and walk right up to examine his shoulder injury, he never made any attempt to give the dog a treat, or make friends before hand. then after he nearly got his face bit off, the vet said it was a dominance thing. which was not the case. it was plainly a fear self defense thing. anyway, we muzzel now, its safer for everyone. If the vet would have given me a half of chance to say muzzel him because he's a bit nervy before he proceeded to come at him we could have avoided that. so, lesson learned.....you have to be prepared ahead of time.

debbie

Sami AKA Gino Rokanhaus
Neka Von Hena C
Toby Von Keiser

Lucy Von Kitty


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