# e-collars and other training methods



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was going to research "alpha roll" for the situation I saw over the weekend and this popped up.

I'm finding the hormonal/stress aspect very interesting. 

http://www.holisticforpets.com/pdf/ElectricCollarTraining_Borwick.pdf

Pictures - Dog shock collar - Columbia Dog | Examiner.com

Articles - Alpha/Dominance Theory and Other Training Myths - DOG WILLING Positive Dog Training Solutions


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really think some of this depends on the dog and how it is introduced to the collar. If it is by a professional that is using it correctly, it should be no more than a "static" buzz. I've put my e-collar on my arm at the setting Jax has and above. I know what it feels like. I also know that she is not a dog that can use an e-collar for obedience training. Whether that is because I incorrectly introduced it or because she is just a dog that is that sensitive, I don't know. I think it's because of me. My trainer uses an e-collar on her dog and she is a pretty positive, progressive trainer. I'm willing to bet that her dog does not shut down when the collar is used.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

If a person has the proper knowledge to operate the collar, then it can be a great tool. Once the dog understands as well, it's like having a long leash and a good reminder to the dog to keep working. 

It can also be a very unfair way of getting quickly to a result, and can leave a negative result on the dog. 

I would not use an ecollar without training and a clear understanding of why and when to use it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The first article states that even when used at lowest setting, can create stress/stress hormones in dogs. There were studies, apparently?



> I also know that she is not a dog that can use an e-collar for obedience training.


10yrs. ago we had two GSDs, and one we could use a bark collar with. The other? No go. At all! Wrong temperament completely. 
My Libby's like your dog I'm sure. A frown and she's done. She came naturally well-behaved though, so is a very easy dog to have - other than that she's too sensitive, very smart and one could ruin her easily with anything but a verbal "no" occasionally.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> The first article states that even when used at lowest setting, can create stress/stress hormones in dogs. There were studies, apparently?


Studies are fine but how were they conducted? Was the collar just slapped on a dog and then hit with the stim? Were the dogs taught what the collar meant? Even at the lowest stim, if the dog is not taught what it means then it would stress them out. I would like to see how the study was conducted.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I too would, but if you read the article, it talks about how just the stress of being 'stimulated', even at the 'tickle' level is causing stress and stress hormones.
I can see that happening, too. The fear of the stimulation - which is startling to a dog - would indeed create stress.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've read the article before. I don't disagree that it would cause a stress response but I think there are many questions the article leaves up in the air. There was one dog on this board a couple years ago that was terrified of the clicker. The noise sent him into a panic. Mine is terrified of a flyswatter. So many thing can cause a stress response. It could have been the people themselves waiting for a reaction that caused it. YOU know how funny some dogs can be.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Interesting articles. I think a fair reading of them shows the authors' biases against shock collars. However, as someone who uses a SC, I agree that if it is used by someone who doesn't empathize with the dog, or doesn't understand how to train a dog, or doesn't understand how the collar works, it can easily be a cruel and inappropriate tool.

As for the dog's reaction: I take Liesl for off-leash walks in our neighborhood morning and evening. People constantly compliment us on how gorgeous she is, and how well-behaved she is. She prances, head up, tail wagging, and not at all depressed in anticipation of being shocked. She is not perfect, by far--but she heels reasonably well and will ignore yapping ankle biters if I I say "leave it". The shock collar was instrumental in getting her there.

To me, the SC is simply a long, non-tangling leash and choke chain--nothing more, nothing less. I do not put it on a setting that will hurt her, but one that will break her focus/prey drive/distraction when I need for that to happen. And I only use it (push the "nick" button) when that needs to happen. We complete most of our walks without me having to push the button more than one or two times. She always gets a verbal command and an opportunity to obey it before I break her focus on something else by nicking her. 

As for the poor dog in that video who was cowed under by abuse of a SC, nothing could be farther from that situation at our house. Liesl jumps and dances like a 5 month old pup when I pull out the collar to take a walk. I truly believe she does not associate the collar with the shock stimulus, and I know that she doesn't have a bad association with it, based on her attempts to get her head into it as quickly as possible for a walk.

My greatest unease with our SC use is the fact that because of her insane prey drive I need to turn it up and use the continuous stim, not the nick, to break her attention from squirrels. It is amazing how her focus on a squirrel will make her oblivious to a stim level that would otherwise bring a yelp. If I can manage to see the squirrel before she gets into stalking mode, I can keep her from chasing it using only a verbal "leave it", even from as close as 10 or 15 feet. 

To me, there is clearly a role for using a SC to enhance communication with the dog. There is unfortunately just as clearly the opportunity for misuse of them by people who do not use them properly, just as there is for choke chains, prong collars, etc.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

i didn't read the articles but i've used shock collars on my pups in the past and this is my 2 cents. they give you results, and they give you results fast. but the results aren't there without the collar and they fade over time. my dogs' results were based on fear. they weren't just fearful as soon as the shock occurred or a few minutes after; they were stressed out and fearful of the shock even prior to it happening. but i felt safe. my dogs could be off leash just about anywhere. they wouldn't run after squirrels into traffic or go up to people walking on the pavement or anything undesirable. and they would RUN. free, happy, crazy RUN. that's what i miss most. is giving them the freedom and at the same time being safe. it was their exercise and they were a lot more fit back then. now no matter how much i walky dog them or walk them, or cut down their food, they still seem pudgy to me 

i've put the shock collar around my arm before at the settings i use on my pups. i didn't find it pleasant at all. in fact it down right hurts to the hair...

i guess that was the inexperience in me that did all that. but i don't regret it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Zeeva said:


> i didn't read the articles but i've used shock collars on my pups in the past and this is my 2 cents. they give you results, and they give you results fast. but the results aren't there without the collar and they fade over time. my dogs' results were based on fear. they weren't just fearful as soon as the shock occurred or a few minutes after; they were stressed out and fearful of the shock even prior to it happening. but i felt safe. my dogs could be off leash just about anywhere. they wouldn't run after squirrels into traffic or go up to people walking on the pavement or anything undesirable. and they would RUN. free, happy, crazy RUN. that's what i miss most. is giving them the freedom and at the same time being safe. it was their exercise and they were a lot more fit back then. now no matter how much i walky dog them or walk them, or cut down their food, they still seem pudgy to me
> 
> i've put the shock collar around my arm before at the settings i use on my pups. i didn't find it pleasant at all. in fact it down right hurts to the hair...
> 
> i guess that was the inexperience in me that did all that. but i don't regret it.


If it downright hurt you it was probably too strong for your dogs.

Were you shown how to use it by someone who actually knows what to do with one? Did you have one that has a hundred or so levels of stimulation?

I don't doubt you. The problem is for your experience to have meaning you would have to explain the collar used and how you used it in detail for someone who really knows these collars to make an assessment.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If, as people say, the lowest setting is a pleasant tickle, why not use positive methods?
Why the need to use the collars?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I totally believe it because my dog can sense the dogs with the shock collars on at the dog park and has been barking and chasing them away. I wish I had seen this before I spoke with the owner of the park about this issue. But I did ask a trainer who consulted a few other people who basically said that the dogs display odd behaviors to other dogs, well seems like it could be something they are releasing as well.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

From the Barwick article: "I would invite anyone who has trained their dog strictly with a remote collar to
enter a real competition such as an AKC Obedience, or Agility trial where the dogs
are asked to work together to demonstrate their true relationship."​ 
I call bunk. Practically any top competition dog (in schutzhund, and quite a few that I have seen in AKC) was trained with electric. I don't know that it is possible to get to that precision without it.... and most of those dogs work very well, with much "happiness" and intensity to the observer.​ 
Having said that, I do not use electric. I have plenty of reasons why not, but I do not think electric in and of itself is any worse than other types of training.​ 
I did try all motivational with my Ari dog. When it came to working with distractions.... he made it perfectly clear that purely positive would purely not work for him.​


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm pretty sure MrsMaris doesn't use e-collars and her dogs are plenty intense. (maybe she'll stop on by here)


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## dbellamore (Feb 10, 2005)

I had a rescue who was chained for hours at a time and thus had no sensation in his huge neck. I worked with three trainers and finally the last (a trainer for the state police dogs) told me the best thing for me and the dog would be to go with an e-collar. At this point the dog knew his commands and would come 99.5% of the time. It was that .5% that I was worried. I got trained with the collar and from then on used a short city leash. This boy was amazing. I very rarely had to shock him. 

We know have a new puppy and will in time put him on a shock collar, too. I'ts like an invisible leash that reaches out 1 1/2 miles.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> If it downright hurt you it was probably too strong for your dogs.
> 
> Were you shown how to use it by someone who actually knows what to do with one? Did you have one that has a hundred or so levels of stimulation?
> 
> I don't doubt you. The problem is for your experience to have meaning you would have to explain the collar used and how you used it in detail for someone who really knows these collars to make an assessment.


I did the research after purchasing it AND using it. My husky was and still is somewhat DA and I used it to prevent him from going ballistic on other dogs. Basically just shocked him when he went into fight mode while walking by another dog. It worked. (I now know that's the wrong way to treat DA). I don't use it any more. I don't encourage it and I don't have enough experience using it correctly to tell someone else how to use it. I can definitely tell you how I used it incorrectly; but what good is that...


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> I'm pretty sure MrsMaris doesn't use e-collars and her dogs are plenty intense. (maybe she'll stop on by here)


If you watch the YouTube video of Kuba Flechtweg (sp?) that is the level of "correctness" I think you can -maybe- only achieve with electric. I am not saying that is good or bad. As previously mentioned, I don't like electric. To say it doesn't work though, is incorrect.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I never said it didn't work. 
That's not what this is about - it's about other methods that are kinder and less stressful for the dog, at least that's what I'm thinking. 
Dogs that are distraught and mind out of fear of being shocked (whether a gentle "tickle" or a surge of power), I'd prefer to avoid that.

That is..."you will obey because disobeying is unpleasant". I don't want that for any of my dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I trained all but the last two dogs with a choke chain because that was what was available. I still use a prong when out and about in the world. 

My about to be one year old could be the poster girl for a high drive puppy.

She has a couple of areas that I'm thinking e-collar for. 

Her trainers are all Michael Ellis trained and use his marker training methods.

She is super smart (too smart sometimes) and willful. She is also very sweet and a wonderful GSD.

What would anyone's solution be for teaching a high drive dog they can't chase the deer while off leash with only using markers, clickers, or treats.

Neither Jack or her give a you know what about treats when a deer pops up.
To them there is no higher value. There are many other scenarios like that.

I could lock them in the closet or never let them off leash.

I could spend endless hours with them individually on long lines wandering about hoping for a good chance to correct them from some prey animal.

Would also like to point out that when training dogs on the choke chain (in the past) it was not as depicted in many of these threads. It's not about ripping your dogs head off, you learn how and when to correct and how strong the correction.
I never had a choke chain trained dog that didn't run to me when I said "want to go for a walk", excited with tail wagging like crazy.

Some threads will have people believing they should have tucked tail, peed on themselves and ran away.

Positive is good for as far as it goes on any particular dog. It won't get some of them where they should be.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I have used an e-collar twice. To teach Nina there was a consequence for not coming when called. Because she knew she had to, she was clear on what was expected, but she was in high drive for the frogs in the pond. The second time was because Nina loves to bump in the blind. If its an experienced helper she jumps right into a very powerful bark and hold. However the new helpers flinch and now its fair game, they moved so she gets to bite. 
I worked with a lady who has been training in Schutzhund for 30 years. We tried everything under the sun to get her to stop. Nothing was enough for her. The e-collar finally did it. That is the only dog I have ever needed to use one on. The battery in the collar is dead now we haven't used it in so long.

I think it is a very valuable tool but should be used sparingly. It is a negative stimulus and as such should only be applied if the dog is familiar with the rules but is choosing to break them. Most people cannot see the difference.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Reading this thread makes me realize how many completely ignorant people are out there that have no clue what the **** they are doing with an e-collar.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I think it is a very valuable tool but should be used sparingly. It is a negative stimulus and as such should only be applied if the dog is familiar with the rules but is choosing to break them. Most people cannot see the difference.


:thumbup:
Sounds reasonable!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Reading this thread makes me realize how many completely ignorant people are out there that have no clue what the **** they are doing with an e-collar.


Some of that is because people like you rarely post anymore.

Need your input and others. I understand why we don't see more of a lot of people though.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I trained all but the last two dogs with a choke chain because that was what was available.


*ALL* of my dogs have been trained with *"CHECK CHAINS"*.....they are only choke chains when fitted and used incorrectly...

You can't tar all dogs with the same brush is the bottom line.

As for "stress" responses.....well some dogs will most likely have this from just a stern look or a gruff voice while others prefer the stress response in their owners....


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

sparra said:


> *ALL* of my dogs have been trained with *"CHECK CHAINS"*.....they are only choke chains when fitted and used incorrectly...
> 
> You can't tar all dogs with the same brush is the bottom line.
> 
> As for "stress" responses.....well some dogs will most likely have this from just a stern look or a gruff voice while others prefer the stress response in their owners....


I like that "check chains". That of course is what I used.

Considering the state of the GSD's nerve base these days, unfortunately just being alive is stressful for some of them.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Perhaps a more constructive approach to the topic would be to give "purely positive" training advice for 

(1) Game chasing
(2) Proofing a distance recall
(3) Offlead distance control
(4) Excessive barking

My own issue in dealing with purely positive (and I aspire to use positive training methods whenever possible, honestly) is that they often leave you out hanging when something does not produce results. At least I have had that experience 

So I see folks all the time lieterally "sneak off" the prong when they go to "positive" class etc.....or use that darned head contraption and really yank around their dogs etc.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The key is to do all training with no distractions and add distractions.
It can be done. It hasn't failed, but perhaps people wanted quicker results than they felt they were getting, or they just gave up and said positive can't teach a reliable recall :shrug:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is basic training for anything ...... but some dogs really seem to need more.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

There are dogs and there are dogs. Some of these dogs have serious drives.
My trainer's dog competed on national level in Sch and PP and he was definitely perfectly trained. One day on the walk in the park the perfectly trained dog took off after a deer. Came back on the next day to the spot where they parked the car. The trainer got the e- collar and it never happened again.
His wife criticized him and said that her dogs are more bonded to her and they would never take off. So a year later her winning champion competition dog took off in the park after a critter. Then she got the e-collar as well.

I personally am not proud and I will use the method that works. I can spend years training and proofing my dog for that perfect recall - and there still may be that one deer and that one car... So I prefer to play it safe, train the recall within weeks, enjoy hiking with my dog off leash all those years that I would be proofing him with a possibly uncertain outcome.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I understand why we don't see more of a lot of people though.


why?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> I understand why we don't see more of a lot of people though.


Me too.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I would agree with you if we were talking about a normal dog without issues.
> 
> But you can't expect people, who don't know how to read a dog, to go onto an internet website, read up on material to properly work a dog. You may be very knowledgable but that is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when you deal with aggression.


Looks like we're back to the back and forth about Ecollars. Some people just can't stop themselves. 

You don't have to know how to read a dog to teach the recall and the sit with an Ecollar, and that's all I'm suggesting,. I do expect, and it has been proven repeatedly, that people can go to my site, read the articles, and use them to get this done. No one has ever reported anything even approaching _"a disaster."_ Given the nature of the Net, if it had happened, someone would have said something. 



Mrs.K said:


> 90% of the people have no idea what the trigger is, why the dog really reacts the way he does, they don't know how to read the dogs body language and you expect them to read up on your blog, slap an e-collar on and fix the problem?


First, it's not a blog. Second, hundreds of people have done just that. I object to your phrase, _"slap an e-collar on ..."_ It's intended to diminish the tool and the method. It's not appreciated and it's rude. 



Mrs.K said:


> With a normal dog, yes. With this dog, I do NOT recommend it doing on your own if you don't know what the issue is in the first place. Go and get a professional involved.


I have no idea what your definition of a _"normal dog"_ is. In the real world many dogs will show aggression when they think it will get them what they want, especially in some breeds, including this one. In the description of this dog, there's nothing that even suggests that the cause is organic. This is "normal dog behavior." If the OP wants to consult a _"professional"_ he can, but that word really has no meaning here. I'd bet that you're talking about a behaviorist, but I consider them a waste of time and money. I've rehabbed dozens of dogs that such _"professionals"_ had told the owners that they had to be put down. I place no faith in them at all.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> It is my experience that people simply do not realize dogs are speaking - loudly - with their behaviors.
> If people could read dog body language, nobody would be bitten!


I'll disagree. It's the nature of this breed to express their dominance. Being able to _"read dog body language"_ doesn't prevent bites, if the person doesn't change his behavior. Even with the ability to read a dog, people still get bitten. 

Earlier I wrote, (referring to the fact that excellent timing is necessary to use a clicker)


> It's not *just *that it's ineffective, you'll be teaching the dog the *wrong thing. *





msvette2u said:


> Ah c'mon - people aren't that stupid.


It's not a matter of stupidity. It's a matter of timing. Some people have it and some do not. Some can improve, some cannot. Saying that anyone can use the tool is a myth. Some will NEVER have good enough timing to effectively use the tool. 



msvette2u said:


> I agree it's got to be split second timing but clicking is not the problem, maybe clicking at the wrong moment will occur...


If someone does not have excellent timing, _"clicking at the wrong moment"_ WILL occur. This is NOT a matter of _"maybe."_ And hence the dog will be told that "the wrong behavior" is the correct one. That leads to confusion and that leads to unreliability. 



msvette2u said:


> but the fact folks sought out clicker training, period, is a plus


Not if they can't use it effectively. It's a time waster. Dog have relatively short lives. I see no reason to waste time in using ineffective methods. 



msvette2u said:


> it means they realize dogs can communicate and are willing to work with that to learn more.


Choosing to use a clicker DOES NOT mean that _"they realize dogs can communicate."_ I doubt that anyone reading this doubts that they can. A child can understand that concept. 



msvette2u said:


> And poor timing can be worked with easily enough.


Some people can make large improvements in their timing. Most people can make small improvements in their timing. Some people can't improve their very−poor−timing at all. This is a fact of life that reflected in the bell shaped curve that everyone is familiar with. If someone is in the latter group, they'll never be able to use a clicker successfully. They can use an Ecollar with my methods. 



msvette2u said:


> I'd agree with Mrs. K. Nobody should learn e-collars from a webpage because the margin for error is much greater than accidentally teaching your dog to stand up rather than to sit.


The fact is that, in spite of your opinion, hundreds of people have done just that. Oddly, none of them report the horrors that you imagine. AGAIN, your LACK of knowledge of how to properly use the tool, has influenced you. I thought we were done with these kinds of posts?! 



msvette2u said:


> A semi-intelligent person can figure out they clicked the wrong thing and fix it


They may be able to _"figure out they clicked the wrong thing"_ being able to _"fix it"_ is quite something else again. If their timing is bad, they won't be able to.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> The way you have described the e-collar is that you use it as a marker. A clicker is just that, a marker.


I’m sorry but you're quite wrong. I do not use the Ecollar as a marker. I have no idea where you come by this opinion. It's wrong. A far better way to describe my use is by describing it as "pressure." I apply pressure to the dog, guide him into the desired behavior, and then remove the pressure. 



Mrs.K said:


> Both tools are used to mark behaviors in one or another way. So how comes that one can use the clicker and mark the wrong behavior but they can't possibly do that with the e-collar?


Some are using the Ecollar this way. I don't. I suggest that you figure out who said that they used the tool in this way, and ask them. 



Mrs.K said:


> Both tools are markers, if you are not familiar with any tool you can get it wrong, only that with the e-collar you can give a dog an electric shock and actually hurt a dog with an e-collar but you can't hurt a dog with a clicker.


Here we go again. The truth is that by following my use of an Ecollar you can't hurt a dog. If you use the tool improperly, this can occur. AND it can occur with the clicker, through misuse as well. In another thread I described how one woman I was watching, threw her clicker at her dog, nearly striking him in the eye. You CAN hurt a dog with a clicker if you misuse, or abuse it. And I think that the confusion that poor timing can cause, can be just as "painful" as causing physical pain with the Ecollar. 



Mrs.K said:


> You can teach them false behaviors but you don't give them electric shocks. You can teach them something you don't want but if you click wrong once, it doesn't really have so much effect because it takes repetition and a lot of shaping to teach a dog a behavior


If someone has poor timing, they're not just going to _"click wrong once."_ It's going to happen repeatedly. And so they'll have fulfilled your requirement of _"repetition"_ to teach the wrong thing. 



Mrs.K said:


> but if I slap the e-collar onto a dog


Again with the rude phrase. 



Mrs.K said:


> and zap them really good


WHY IS IT THAT YOU PEOPLE CAN'T STOP YOURSELF FROM DOING THIS? AGAIN you're only talking about Ecollars used improperly and your choice of tools as they're used properly. People who follow my instructions don't _"zap [their dog] really good."_ 



Mrs.K said:


> because I think that is the right way to do it, or accidently put on the wrong setting, that might make much more damage than a single click that I timed wrong.


What _"damage"_ do you imagine will occur? 



Mrs.K said:


> Again, I am not saying that it is a bad tool, I am just not advising for using it yourself without having being trained in it.


Thanks, you've said this a few times now. We get it. You want people to be _"trained in it."_ That's what my website is all about. People who know nothing about the tool can go there, read the articles, apply them, and train their dog. 



Mrs.K said:


> Isn't it hypocritical to say "But what if your timing is off with the clicker." and not acknowledge the fact that timing is just as important with the e-collar than it is with the clicker?


Well, first of all, it's not. My methods were designed specifically for people who have little or no timing skill at all. As I've previously said, if someone can clap their hands and tap their foot at the same time, their timing is good enough to use my methods. I suggest that you read the articles. In all of them the button is pressed at the same time that the trainer does something else. For example, in teaching the early phases of the recall, the button is pressed at the same moment that the trainer starts the pull on the leash. 

In fact, this is discussed on my site on the page of Myths. (Click to read them). In fact, it's "Myth #1."


> * 1. MYTH: * You must have perfect timing, be an "expert trainer" or a “professional” to use an Ecollar.
> 
> * FACT: * No one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time. Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his “perfect timing” becomes merely “very good timing.”
> 
> If you have perfect timing, training progresses VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training takes a little longer. If you have so–so timing, training takes longer still. If you have HORRIBLE timing, either no training occurs, or the wrong training effect occurs. Just about anyone who can train a dog with a leash and collar can use an Ecollar effectively. Even many who aren't coordinated enough to give a correction, can learn to use an Ecollar effectively. If you have HORRIBLE timing, sell your dog and get a goldfish. Timing isn't important with them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I'd say, because of the fact it's actually a punishment (yes a "stimulation" is a punishment) timing is much more critical in the use of any aversion training.


If we were discussing _"aversion training"_ you'd be right. Since we're not, this has NOTHING to do with this discussion. 

You folks are going to get ANOTHER thread locked.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Yes, there are two threads for this back and forth - one (HA! ONE!) on e-collars and one (HA! ONE!) on clickers. These are great conversations and people are being tremendous on this thread - it is appreciated. But, would really like to keep that focus on Eli, if his poor person comes back! Because they do have relativity to the thread - I am leaving them - but the OP can definitely look at those other threads specifically for reference. Hoping that we get some feedback from him so that we can answer, but please continue those discussions in those threads. Thanks.


Can you give m a link to the other discussions that you refer to please?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Actually I think the most valuable suggestion in this topic is to "Go, get a good trainer!"
> 
> 
> Especially with aggression issues... just get a trainer... darnit!
> ...


This is about the third time that you've given this advice in this thread. We get it. I still disagree. Welcome to The Department of Redundancy Department.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Just an interesting article I figured I'd drop off at this thread (considering stress hormones were mentioned). 

For young birds, getting stressed out can be a good thing


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Perhaps a more constructive approach to the topic would be to give "purely positive" training advice for
> 
> (1) Game chasing
> (2) Proofing a distance recall
> ...



Had that talk with my trainer because I was opposing the e-collar. She said that especially for SAR dogs it is an invaluable tool to proof off your dog, since we do more off leash than on leash training. 

I wouldn't start using it on my own without knowing what I am doing and especially since I've seen how it can be abused, there is no way I'm doing it without getting trained on how to use it. 

Also, a friend of mine put the e-collar around his neck and they zapped him on the highest level. He literally collapsed and lay on the floor as if he got shocked by a tazer.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Who honestly uses the highest levels? Every dog I have worked with using a dogtra collar has responded well to under 30 out of 127. 

I think they are an excellent tool if used correctly. I enjoy hiking off leash with my dogs, and I expect an absolutely solid recall out of them. I will not have my dog run off and get killed or bit by an animal or get into a fight because I'm not prepared for it. I think e-collars have some very good uses, but telling someone it will solve all of their problems immediately is not right. People don't understand it, as we've seen even on these forums, and cause way too many problems.

You tell Versailles that she is stressed when we're out exploring the world - I think she'll disagree. A dog with good nerves will respond, react correctly, and go about their day.

That being said, my lab does terrible with an ecollar. It shuts him down, we don't use it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

e.rigby said:


> Just an interesting article I figured I'd drop off at this thread (considering stress hormones were mentioned).
> 
> For young birds, getting stressed out can be a good thing


What I know about stress hormones - in domesticated animals - it can increase production of cortisone and that's very detrimental to the healing process. Dogs and other mammals under stress have reduced immunity (kennel cough springs to mind, and other illnesses borne in shelter - very stressful- conditions). 
In humans, same thing. Illnesses and prolonged healing times.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Without the use of an e collar (which my dog has been trained to appropriately) I wouldn't be able to take him hiking, or play ball off leash at parks. He is a high drive dog with an even higher prey drive, but his recall (now) is impeccable. If you're not one to care about doing off leash activities with such a dog, I can understand the opposition to the e collar... but for my dog, my life, it's proven to be worth it's weight in gold. I have a tritronics multiple dog system, it cost about $500 (two collars) and even though it has settings that go up to 7 (I think) I never go past level 1. The purpose is to train with negative reinforcement, not positive punishment... so when utilized properly the dog is stressed very minimally and though it is an aversive, it causes very little discomfort.

Also, I fully support positive reinforcement training. I am against punishing puppies as they need to first learn what is expected and to have time to learn the different cues and behaviors. Not every dog is going to need aversive training. Additionally, not every owner is going to be for using it... but for those who use it correctly, people need to lay off and understand that different life styles require different levels of obedience and reinforcers only work if the dog finds the reward to be rewarding!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It's the nature of this breed to express their dominance.


Wow. 
So all the e-collar "debate" that is taking place here is about_ dominance_?? I'll keep that in mind. 
Is that why you believe they are the solution to everything? And don't say you do not think that because your extremely detailed answers picking apart everyone's posts speaks differently.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> "Go, get a good trainer!"


Excellent advice. You cannot replicate, from the internet, what a _good_ trainer can teach you in a class or in person.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

E-collars do not _have_ to be used to get a good recall. I understand why one may choose them but please don't give the impression a good recall can't be taught without one.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

No, you're right, out of the 6 dogs I own, only 2 have been worked on with e collar training. The other 4 have never needed one. I made it very clear that all dogs were different and all owners have different requirements for work/play/life with their dogs. 

I've called one of my dogs out of a dead run towards another dog (on an invisible fence). He put on the brakes so fast and spun around and ran back to me. He's never been trained with aversives in his life. 

What I'm saying, is that for SOME dogs the only way to train a reliable recall is with an e collar.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> Without the use of an e collar (which my dog has been trained to appropriately) I wouldn't be able to take him hiking, or play ball off leash at parks. He is a high drive dog with an even higher prey drive, but his recall (now) is impeccable. If you're not one to care about doing off leash activities with such a dog, I can understand the opposition to the e collar... but for my dog, my life, it's proven to be worth it's weight in gold. I have a tritronics multiple dog system, it cost about $500 (two collars) and even though it has settings that go up to 7 (I think) I never go past level 1. The purpose is to train with negative reinforcement, not positive punishment... so when utilized properly the dog is stressed very minimally and though it is an aversive, it causes very little discomfort.
> 
> Also, I fully support positive reinforcement training. I am against punishing puppies as they need to first learn what is expected and to have time to learn the different cues and behaviors. Not every dog is going to need aversive training. Additionally, not every owner is going to be for using it... but for those who use it correctly, people need to lay off and understand that different life styles require different levels of obedience and reinforcers only work if the dog finds the reward to be rewarding!


That is what I like to do. Off leash hiking etc...
It's also how you find out your dogs recall is not as great as the prey drive.
It's easy to teach perfect recall in the backyard. Not so easy in the great outdoors. There is also a time factor.
Did you have someone train you or did you do it yourself?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Zeeva said:


> why?


Because sometimes it is just downright exhausting trying to have a debate with someone who is ALWAYS right.....


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I've trained professionally for 9 years. I don't use remote collars in my classes or with the majority of my privates, however, a few years back I was asked to train a gun dog. The owner wanted the dog to eventually be put on an e collar. So I spent months training with +R, and when the time came to take the dog on an actually hunt, the dog decided the bird was much more inciting than what he previously learned. So he went back on a check line and when we got home he was introduced to an e collar. 

I have a friend who owns a dog training business who uses e collars, she taught me a lot (considering I had never used one) and then I bought a few training videos as well. So I've used an e collar in training (with very specific dogs when the need arises) though I still primarily use +R (especially during the learning phase).

I decided to finally use one on my own dog when I was out mt biking with Virgil and he left me to chase a deer who crossed the river... and my dog followed. I sat on the river bank for about 30 minutes hoping my dog was going to return... he finally did and it wasn't long after I introduced him to an e collar. This is a dog that I spent months training with +R and who passed his CGC perfectly. He can compete in obedience (and could do so before he ever was trained with an e collar) so it's not like he wasn't obedient... his prey drive was just higher than anything I could offer so it was either give up hiking and biking with my dog off leash or explore other methods of training.

He is perfect now. I don't have to use the stim on the e collar (of course, this is after many hours invested training him), however, whenever we go out he has one on because I am not going to risk it. 

He's an awesome dog and I love him to death! I chose to train him the way I did because I want him with me and technically, he WANTS to be with me... so even though, yeah, it's aversive, he's a fullfilled happy dog... much more than dogs that waste away in back yards because they have no manners whatsoever... or dogs that owners have tried and tried and failed to train (not that, that in and of itself is reason enough to use aversives in training!)


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I've never used an ecollar,but am not against them either.Just like any other training tool I think they have their place,but aren't for every dog. I've seen both sides of ecollar use as far as dogs who have had it used on them properly and dogs who have just had it put on had the **** zapped out of them at the highest setting. I had a lab who was forced trained with an ecollar to fetch and because of how it was used,this dog not only wouldn't fetch a ball,but wouldn't even look you in your eye. That's an example of an e collar used improperly.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

If your dogs were fearful of the collar then that means that it was used inappropriately.No tool should cause fear in a dog. Did you get help prior to using it?




Zeeva said:


> . they give you results, and they give you results fast. but the results aren't there without the collar and they fade over time. my dogs' results were based on fear. they weren't just fearful as soon as the shock occurred or a few minutes after; they were stressed out and fearful of the shock even prior to it happening.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Wow.
> So all the e-collar "debate" that is taking place here is about_ dominance_?? I'll keep that in mind.


Please stop trying to put words into my mouth. I've never said this. 



msvette2u said:


> Is that why you believe they are the solution to everything?


Something else I didn't say. You kept trying this in the last discussion that got closed, and now you continue it. Since you seem to keep trying to attribute such a statement to me, please show me where I said it. 



e.rigby said:


> And don't say you do not think that because your extremely detailed answers picking apart everyone's posts speaks differently.


Sorry too late. I've never said this. The fact that I dissect posts has nothing to do with this. It has to do with responding to each of a person's statements, in turn.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Excellent advice. You cannot replicate, from the internet, what a _good_ trainer can teach you in a class or in person.


Since many people can't learn in a "trainer at your elbow" situation, the written word is an alternate. If people can't learn _"from the Internet"_ the thousands of books on dog training, and all those pesky textbooks that we make our children read, can't teach anything either. If my daughter can learn calculus out of a book, someone can learn to use an Ecollar from a website.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

e.rigby said:


> No, you're right, out of the 6 dogs I own, only 2 have been worked on with e collar training. The other 4 have never needed one. I made it very clear that all dogs were different and all owners have different requirements for work/play/life with their dogs.


YES! This.

Cyra would probably have died a young death if not for the ecollar and that setting of "6", yes a very low 6 on the Dogtra. She was horrid at chasing animals (and she wanted to kill kill kill) and you cannot tell me the ecollar was more traumatic than the fully charged cattle fence she ran through (and ingnored even though her whole body twitched) chasing a goat. A car would be even more traumatic.

Grim - has not even needed a prong or a choke. He is like a mother critter. He loves little animals...once even took me to a birds nest and was so proud of himself.

Beau - I have not really considered an ecollar on him. We have used a prong for on lead pulling but offlead recall under distraction has been good so far and, while he has plenty of ball drive, he does not seem overly interested in chasing critters.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Freddy said:


> I would not use an ecollar without training and a clear understanding of why and when to use it.


Neither should anyone else. Such training and understanding is easy to get. My site gives both.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> The first article states that even when used at lowest setting, can create stress/stress hormones in dogs. There were studies, apparently?


Please find those studies and provide links to them. I have yet to find any studies that used the _"lowest setting"_ showed this result. In fact the number of studies that use low level stim is VERY small.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I can see that happening, too. The fear of the stimulation - which is startling to a dog - would indeed create stress.


Imaginations are wonderful things. Let's see those studies, OK? And while you're at it, please show us the studies that show that _"stress"_ is necessarily a bad thing. 

Meanwhile, from this site, ArborGate Labradoodles


> Dr. Michael Fox conducted a study showing that puppies that have been mildly stressed during the first 5 weeks will develop into dogs which are superior when put in learning or competitive situations. They are better able to handle stress, are more outgoing and learn more quickly. Mild physical stress at an early age will actually increase the size of the brain.


At appropriate levels, stress is good for most organisms. It makes them stronger. Those who favor the so−called "kinder gentler methods" want people to think that there is no stress in their methods. It's a lie. Stress is involved in ANY form of training. The dog knows you want him to do something but he doesn't know what it is. That produces stress.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Zeeva said:


> i didn't read the articles but i've used shock collars on my pups in the past and this is my 2 cents. they give you results, and they give you results fast. but the results aren't there without the collar and they fade over time. my dogs' results were based on fear. they weren't just fearful as soon as the shock occurred or a few minutes after; they were stressed out and fearful of the shock even prior to it happening. but i felt safe. my dogs could be off leash just about anywhere. they wouldn't run after squirrels into traffic or go up to people walking on the pavement or anything undesirable. and they would RUN. free, happy, crazy RUN. that's what i miss most. is giving them the freedom and at the same time being safe. it was their exercise and they were a lot more fit back then. now no matter how much i walky dog them or walk them, or cut down their food, they still seem pudgy to me
> 
> i've put the shock collar around my arm before at the settings i use on my pups. i didn't find it pleasant at all. in fact it down right hurts to the hair...
> 
> i guess that was the inexperience in me that did all that. but i don't regret it.


There's a vast difference between using the Ecollar for management, as you did, and using it for training, as I advocate. In your situation, dogs fear the stim. In mine, they don't. They know what causes it, that they're in charge of when it starts and stops, and they know how to shut it off.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> If, as people say, the lowest setting is a pleasant tickle, why not use positive methods?
> Why the need to use the collars?


Who has said this? I've never come across anyone who finds any setting of an Ecollar to be pleasant. At best, it's mildly uncomfortable. Of course there are those for whom pain is pleasure, but let's not go there. lol


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

gagsd said:


> From the Barwick article: "I would invite anyone who has trained their dog strictly with a remote collar to enter a real competition such as an AKC Obedience, or Agility trial where the dogs are asked to work together to demonstrate their true relationship."
> 
> I call bunk. Practically any top competition dog (in schutzhund, and quite a few that I have seen in AKC) was trained with electric. I don't know that it is possible to get to that precision without it.... and most of those dogs work very well, with much "happiness" and intensity to the observer.


You're completely correct to call _"bunk"_ here. The catch in the Borwick statement is the qualifying phrase, _"... who has trained their dog 'strictly' with a remote collar ..."_ No one does this, so such a person is like the Easter bunny, neither exists. 



gagsd said:


> I did try all motivational with my Ari dog. When it came to working with distractions.... he made it perfectly clear that purely positive would purely not work for him.


In another thread, msvette2u wrote, _"Nobody comes on here stating positive reinforcement *failed!*"_ In that thread three members came on and said that their use of +R had "failed." And now here's ANOTHER one!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Dogs that are distraught and mind out of fear of being shocked (whether a gentle "tickle" or a surge of power), I'd prefer to avoid that.


Me too and so that's why I use methods with the Ecollar that don't make dogs _"distraught"_ and don't have them _"mind[ing], [I think you mean 'obeying'] out of fear of being shocked."_ You want people to believe that these things are inherent in the tool, but they're not. If you knew more about Ecollars you'd know that such things are all about how the tool is used, not the tool itself, but I don't hold much hope that you'll ever learn this. Your mind is not open and so you've cut yourself off from learning anything that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. In this thread you are surrounded by people telling you of their successes in using the tool. Yet not one of them has made any impression.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> Reading this thread makes me realize how many completely ignorant people are out there that have no clue what the **** they are doing with an e-collar.


Accurate and succinct.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Perhaps a more constructive approach to the topic would be to give "purely positive" training advice for
> 
> (1) Game chasing
> (2) Proofing a distance recall
> ...





msvette2u said:


> The key is to do all training with no distractions and add distractions.
> It can be done. It hasn't failed, but perhaps people wanted quicker results than they felt they were getting, or they just gave up and said positive can't teach a reliable recall


Nancy notice how msvette2u completely avoids most of your question? That's what these folks do.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I wouldn't start using it on my own without knowing what I am doing and especially since I've seen how it can be abused, there is no way I'm doing it without getting trained on how to use it.


Help is but a click away. Home 



Mrs.K said:


> Also, a friend of mine put the e-collar around his neck and they zapped him on the highest level. He literally collapsed and lay on the floor as if he got shocked by a tazer.


Some people are too stupid for their own good. YouTube is full is such idiots. Of course, this has nothing to do with proper use of an Ecollar, but it's the sort of diversion that anti-Ecollar folks put up with great frequency. 

Can you tell us how this relates to the proper use of Ecollars?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> What I know about stress hormones - in domesticated animals - it can increase production of cortisone and that's very detrimental to the healing process.


Cortisone can also reduce inflammation which *speeds healing. * It's often injected directly into areas of inflammation. Had many of those shots myself. They bring near instant relief of pain. 



Mrs.K said:


> Dogs and other mammals under stress have reduced immunity (kennel cough springs to mind, and other illnesses borne in shelter - very stressful- conditions).
> In humans, same thing. Illnesses and prolonged healing times.


If you're talking about massive amounts of the corticosteroid, you're right, it does compromise healing. But in the moderate amounts that are present when a dog is stressed during ANY training (including with the so−called "kinder gentler methods)" this doesn't happen.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> E-collars do not _have_ to be used to get a good recall. I understand why one may choose them but please don't give the impression a good recall can't be taught without one.


Again with a straw man argument. No one has made such a statement. If you disagree, please show us where someone has.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

e.rigby said:


> I've trained professionally for 9 years. I don't use remote collars in my classes or with the majority of my privates, however, a few years back I was asked to train a gun dog. The owner wanted the dog to eventually be put on an e collar. So I spent months training with +R, and when the time came to take the dog on an actually hunt, the dog decided the bird was much more inciting than what he previously learned.


Are you seeing this msvette2u? Here's ANOTHER failure of the +R methods. This time it's from a professional who's been at it for NINE YEARS and worked with the dog in question for _"months."_ If that doesn't show us the real value of those methods ... ESPECIALLY when you read the next paragraph of e.rigby's post! 

That brings us to FIVE in threads that you're taking part in. I'd bet that there are MANY MORE in other threads. I think we've put the lie to your previous statement, _" Nobody comes on here stating positive reinforcement *failed!*"_ 




e.rigby said:


> * I decided to finally use one on my own dog when I was out mt biking with Virgil and he left me to chase a deer who crossed the river... and my dog followed. I sat on the river bank for about 30 minutes hoping my dog was going to return... he finally did and it wasn't long after I introduced him to an e collar. This is a dog that I spent months training with +R and who passed his CGC perfectly. He can compete in obedience (and could do so before he ever was trained with an e collar) so it's not like he wasn't obedient... his prey drive was just higher than anything I could offer so it was either give up hiking and biking with my dog off leash or explore other methods of training. * [Emphasis Added]


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know I shouldn't be sticking my big butt into this thread, but I can't help myself...this debate reminds me of other debates I've heard regarding handguns. Safe? Dangerous? Apples? Oranges? The back-and-forth is interesting, but it's making me dizzy. Have fun guys


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> Since many people can't learn in a "trainer at your elbow" situation, the written word is an alternate. If people can't learn _"from the Internet"_ the thousands of books on dog training, and all those pesky textbooks that we make our children read, can't teach anything either. If my daughter can learn calculus out of a book, someone can learn to use an Ecollar from a website.


 
*Good point!*


How about learning to use a "Clicker" from the Internet? It seems like a lot of folks on this forum think that is fine, esp. a book from Karen.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lou, you lost all credibility with me when you started slinging about your dominance beliefs. 
Sorry.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oddly, my dogs are trained to walk on a leash. We got a few heavy duty flexis and hiked just fine with them. 
While not "against" e-collars I'll stand by the statements already made - they are not for every dog and every situation.
And certainly not for "dominance" in dogs. Dominance is an outdated theory, btw...and the term is wayyy overused and wayyy misunderstood.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

codmaster said:


> *Good point!*
> 
> 
> How about learning to use a "Clicker" from the Internet? It seems like a lot of folks on this forum think that is fine, esp. a book from Karen.


 Do people ever stop to think what they're typing?

I have no issues with ecollars at all and I do understand dog training. It's why I continue to use things from all 4 quads to train dogs and the more I do it the better I get ar seeing which would be most appropriate for differnet dogs.

And another thing I believe is that the damage caused by using a "clicker" incorrectly is no where near the degree of psychological damage that a person using an ecollar incorrectly could cause.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And another thing I believe is that the damage caused by using a "clicker" incorrectly is no where near the degree of psychological damage that a person using an ecollar incorrectly could cause.


Exactly this.
I'd recommend finding an in-person trainer for e-collar use. Because - did anyone read the articles in the 1st post...?

And clickers, go for it. You can't wreck a dog's psyche by missing the sit with a clicker.



> I have no issues with ecollars at all and I do understand dog training. It's why I continue to use things from all 4 quads to train dogs and *the more I do it the better I get ar seeing which would be most appropriate for differnet dogs.*


:thumbup:


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'd like to comment on hiking with a leash:

This may be fine on mild or wide trails, roads or fields, but backpacking with my dog is something I enjoy and hope to do with my new pup for many years. There is no way in he// I'm using a long line or a flexi on a steep, rocky switchback that's gaining (or losing) 5,000 feet in 4 miles (or less) with a 40lb pack on my back. Especially if he sees a cougar, bear, elk or even a **** deer so he can pull me over and possibly injure us both.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> I'd like to comment on hiking with a leash:
> 
> This may be fine on mild or wide trails, roads or fields, but backpacking with my dog is something I enjoy and hope to do with my new pup for many years. There is no way in he// I'm using a long line or a flexi on a steep, rocky switchback that's gaining (or losing) 5,000 feet in 4 miles (or less) with a 40lb pack on my back. Especially if he sees a cougar, bear, elk or even a **** deer so he can pull me over and possibly injure us both.


Agreed, additionally, where I hike the dogs can access the creeks and river beds that would be pretty difficult for me (albeit not impossible) so if they were on a flexi they would lose a lot of their freedom to just explore and have fun.

Key word fun! I've opened up so much for my dogs because I'm not opposed to proper aversive training. For some dogs they can have all of this with positive reinforcement, but a couple of mine weren't able to be trusted even after months of training. In fact, I'd say even years would still not fix their prey drive.

So yeah, they don't chase now because they know there are consequences, but they are super happy, excited, and able to do more things now than before.

So personal preference... if it's not a big deal to someone to be able to do as many off leash activities, then no, there's no need to train with an e collar. If your dog takes to +R to the extent you've tested them and can trust them fully, then again, no need for aversive training! However, for the percentage of dogs that can't be trusted and have failed the test of training... it's a great way to give them something they couldn't have other wise.

My dogs are happier with their freedom, and I'm secure in knowing nothing bad will happen to them!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> I'd like to comment on hiking with a leash:
> 
> This may be fine on mild or wide trails, roads or fields, but backpacking with my dog is something I enjoy and hope to do with my new pup for many years. There is no way in he// I'm using a long line or a flexi on a steep, rocky switchback that's gaining (or losing) 5,000 feet in 4 miles (or less) with a 40lb pack on my back. Especially if he sees a cougar, bear, elk or even a **** deer so he can pull me over and possibly injure us both.


While I have leashes with me, I generally go hiking or even walking the dogs off leash. Yukon never leaves my side anyways, Indra went on off leash walks as soon as I got her when she was 8 weeks old. She never left the pack, even when they went off to run like crazy and had their zoomies across a field, they all have a re-call. 
I think some of you remember those videos from our off leash hikes at the holy mountain in Heidelberg. 

What fun is it for the dog to go on a hike and not get off leash. Never needed an e-collar for the re-call either. 

Nala..heck I didn't even know the dog when she landed in the US, we went to my friends place in Maryland. I had Judge with me. Judge and her hit it off. Just from her behavior I knew she wasn't a runner and she'd come back, so after only half an hour of having that dog, I let her off the leash, to let her stretch her muscles and run with Judge. Some may say irresponsible but for some odd reason I know which dog I can do it with and which one I can't. Guess it's one of those things I learned from growing up the way I did. Can't explain it.

However, as soon as I see somebody coming our way, I call them back and put them on a leash, gather them around me and let them pass. That's manners. 

The funniest thing was that one of the dogs I have in daycare is the dog of a customer who once had an encounter with my dogs and I. He was hiking on the same trail we were on. I did not remember him but he remembered us. He said he was very worried when he saw three GSD's off leash but then he saw me calling them back, putting them on the leash and they gathered around me like a pack. That stuck with him. I couldn't believe that he remembered that day even though it's almost a year ago. Because I certainly do not remember him nor did I remember his dog. LOL


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh they had a ton of fun - especially since Ruger has the elbow issue we keep his exercise fairly low impact and the flexi works perfect for that.

Curious what you guys do until the dog learns the recall...? Do you use a leash until then?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Rocket is great off-leash and has been hiking off-leash since 14 weeks. He used to recall off deer as a smaller pup; then one jumped right in front of his face and all recall memory was gone. He sees deer so much now, I think these are not as bad anymore but I found bear scat (fresh) less than a quarter mile from my house. DH and I saw a cougar less than 15 feet from us in March, and I have moose in my yard and rarely, elk. When Rocket sees these things, he doesn't even stop to look at me- his prey drive is in overload and he's like Usain Bolt. OFF he goes. He might as well be stone deaf. And we proof recall all the time. On his long line he is great. It's OFF leash he knows he can go I think, although we have never encountered a bear or elk on leash. He pulled me over with my pack when we saw the cougar though. It wasn't fun and I was glad we were so close to home because me hand was bleeding nicely, heh.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ouch I bet!

I taught recall, though, using a flexi type lead and just reeling them back in. 
I don't know if that'd work for Rocket.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Sigh. 

What do you think I've been doing?


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## instagator (Aug 15, 2012)

No, I wouldn't use an electric collar. I understand how some people without a lot of time and/or patience would be tempted to use one, but come on? Going straight for one without giving your dog some personal training first? That's just taking the easy way out.

I've had a lot of experience with just buying ebooks and training the dogs myself. I knew nothing about dog training before but used ebooks to learn about how to train them. It's pretty easy because the two that I used had pictures and videos accompanying every exercise. That and they are super cheap, besides.

A good resource is http://thegreatdogs.com, it's a third party review site. The guy is a trainer/breeder, so he knows his stuff and rates the ebooks fairly. They are about $15-30, but teaching your dog that you are it's owner, not just there to pepper it with attention, is going to go a long way to fixing this problem.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Rocket, it sounds like an E-Collar might work well for Rocket now to proof him while in drive on the recall! 

I use E-Collars when appropriate. The vibration function on my collars was paired with food and is used as a positive reinforcement, I can reinforce good behaviors long distance, when they feel the vibrate, they know a treat/ball is coming. It is a different way to utilize the collar but I get the most out of it this way! 

Some dogs need an e-collar. Those Retriever trainers can't all be wrong. Every method has it's place. The people that realize that will go farther in training than the people that are closed minded to other methods besides pure positive. 

I do Dock Diving every year and almost all the hardcore high drive dogs wear e-collars while standing in line.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Three months ago we received an application from a lady who was devastated after losing her dog. How did she lose the dog? They have been hiking off leash in the woods for years. And the dog was great off leash for years. And then one day a deer ran by and all her recall training went down the drain. The dog was found dead on the beltway several miles away. So the recall was great until the one time in five years when it was not. So the positive training (and I have seen plenty of not so positive proofing of recall) may have not caused an emotional trauma, but it did kill the dog.

I would never risk the safety of my dogs in this way when there is such an easy fix available. I have not had to use the button on the e-collar for 8 years (since their initial training) but I know it is there if that fatal deer shows up. And yes, I could walk them on a long leash, which is a nuisance in the bushes, we are much happier off leash and the dogs get better exercise.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

i think i'll try the e-collar, using the bat and the 2x4 for 3 months didnt improved my dogs ob in schutzhund. my TD suggested a 6x8, but i think i'll try the e-collar fosho.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Blanketback said:


> I know I shouldn't be sticking my big butt into this thread, but I can't help myself...this debate reminds me of other debates I've heard regarding handguns. Safe? Dangerous? Apples? Oranges? The back-and-forth is interesting, but it's making me dizzy. Have fun guys


Funny that you should mention this. Many of those opposed to handguns (or guns in general) are hoplophobes, people afraid of weapons. Here we have a bit of an overlap, tapinophobia, a fear of inanimate objects. No charge for the diagnosis. Lol. 

Inanimate objects are neither safe nor dangerous. They simply are. It's only when they're picked up and used, or misused, that they become _"safe [or] dangerous."_ 

I’m opening a contest for the best name for the fear of Ecollars. Electrophobia? Shockaphobia? Stimaphobia? Tingleabphobia? E−phobia? Buttonphobia? Zapaphobia? (Note, the latter [with one "p"] would not be a fear of Frank Zappa – that would be Zappaphobia, [with 2 p's]). 

I'll be the sole (soul?) judge and the winner gets a one−man−standing−ovation!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

codmaster said:


> How about learning to use a "Clicker" from the Internet? It seems like a lot of folks on this forum think that is fine, esp. a book from Karen.


Yep. It's perfectly OK to learn to use their choice of tools this way, but no others. Since you mentioned Karen ... can anyone tell me what they'd do to housebreak a dog? Seems like a weird question here, I know, but humor me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Lou, you lost all credibility with me when you started slinging about your dominance beliefs.
> Sorry.


No need to apologize. You lost all credibility with me at your earliest posts in the other thread. So I take it that you don't think that dogs can ever express dominance? If so, you REALLY know very little about them. 

You don't seem to be very good at answering questions that I ask of you. What's wrong, afraid that they'll expose YET MORE of how little you really know?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Oddly, my dogs are trained to walk on a leash. We got a few heavy duty flexis and hiked just fine with them.


I don't find that _"odd"_ at all. MANY folks who swear by the so−called "kinder gentler methods" have dogs that are easily trained, very biddable and aren't very driven. 



msvette2u said:


> While not "against" e-collars I'll stand by the statements already made - they are not for every dog and every situation.


How many times do you think you need to say this? AGAIN I'll respond that probably out there is a dog that an Ecollar won't work on, but in putting Ecollars on well over 3,000 dogs, I've not come across one. I've said REPEATEDLY that Ecollars are not for every situation, in spite of some of you folks pretending that I've said that they are. 

They will probably work VERY WELL in the OP's situation. 



msvette2u said:


> And certainly not for "dominance" in dogs.


AGAIN you show us how little you really know about Ecollars. NO ONE has said that they should be used for _"dominance."_ SEVERAL TIMES I've said that all that needs to be done for the OP's dogs is to teach him the recall and the sit with my methods with the Ecollar. Nothing about dominance there. 



msvette2u said:


> Dominance is an outdated theory, btw...


No, you're completely wrong. Dominance as the driver of everything that dogs do has been discredited. But that hardly means that some dogs aren't dominant about some things. If you don't understand how dominance works in dogs, you don't know much about them. 



msvette2u said:


> and the term is wayyy overused and wayyy misunderstood.


Actually is waaaaay UNDERused. But you're right, as we can see from your comments. It is waaaaay _"misunderstood."_ Every time two dogs meet they establish which of them is dominant in that situation. It happens with a glance, a subtle shift of body posture, Body, tail, ear, head carriage, and more. If you can't read these things, you have no business calling yourself a dog trainer. 

One of the best ways to learn about these things, they're called "Greeting Behavior" is on my good friend Donn Yarnall's website, Home LEO's can get access to a restricted section but there are sections for non LE too.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crackem said:


> And another thing I believe is that the damage caused by using a "clicker" incorrectly is no where near the degree of psychological damage that a person using an ecollar incorrectly could cause.


Oddly enough your opinion about _"the degree of psychological damage that a person using an Ecollar incorrectly could cause"_ is not supported by any literature concerning any Ecollar studies ever done. If you disagree, please show us some of those studies that support such statements. 

A clicker poorly used can easily cause much confusion. I happen to think it's just as bad as the confusion that an Ecollar can cause.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Exactly this.
> I'd recommend finding an in-person trainer for e-collar use. Because - did anyone read the articles in the 1st post...?


Yep, more opinion pieces from MORE people who know little about Ecollars. 



msvette2u said:


> And clickers, go for it. You can't wreck a dog's psyche by missing the sit with a clicker.


Nonsense. You can cause just as much confusion in a dog's brain with a clicker poorly used as with an Ecollar poorly used. And AGAIN we have you folks discussing Ecollars ONLY as they're applied improperly. The hypocrisy is massive in these discussions.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Ouch I bet!
> 
> I taught recall, though, using a flexi type lead and just reeling them back in.
> I don't know if that'd work for Rocket.


This is the experience of many who favor the so−called "kinder gentler methods". Many of them have easily trained dogs and so they really have very little experience with difficult problems. Many are scared to death to deal with such dogs. Solving such problems is my specialty.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I was told that my dog should wear a e-collar when she is older, by my trainer. Because by nature she gets nervous easily and when nervous... she's unpredictable. She also have a healthy dose of prey drive that is hard to recall when she wants to chase. I will proof her as much as possible with positive training but when off leash hiking I will do e-collar eventually to give me peace of mind and my dog the ability to roam. To me, this is a safety issue and I don't want to take away her love for off leash hikes just because I worry she may one day not come back. It's not an easy way out - it's a tool that will help me ensure her safety.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

after reading all the posts, i've concluded that LouCastle (whoever he is) is well educated on e-collars and knows what he is talking about.

after msvette's argument with cliffson with regards to breeding GSD and pedigrees and she said, she breeds chicken and are a bit the same...i never take any of her posts seriously, thus my first post.

nice thread though, shows some minds are like parachutes.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Bear L said:


> I was told that my dog should wear a e-collar when she is older, by my trainer. Because by nature she gets nervous easily and when nervous... she's unpredictable. She also have a healthy dose of prey drive that is hard to recall when she wants to chase. I will proof her as much as possible with positive training but when off leash hiking I will do e-collar eventually to give me peace of mind and my dog the ability to roam. To me, this is a safety issue and I don't want to take away her love for off leash hikes just because I worry she may one day not come back. It's not an easy way out - it's a tool that will help me ensure her safety.


Bear L I can't tell your plan from your post, but I'd strongly recommend against just putting an Ecollar on your dog as insurance in case she takes off on a chase. If you hit the button in this situation and the dog doesn't know what caused the stim, she might continue the chase, or she might be startled and run in panic, or she could learn never to leave your side again. Ecollars should not be used without showing the dog what makes the stim start and how to shut it off.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

A quick question for those "anti" dominance folks - if you had a group of dogs and only put down 1 bowl of food - how do you think the dogs would decide who eats first? It is hard for dogs to draw straws since they don't have thumbs.

Dominance does absolutely occur within a group of dogs! it may well vary from time to time depending on circunstances, etc., but it is an absolute fact of existence within any group of animals (including humans, BTW).

One can ignore it but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Now one reason why some folks may be a little confused about the existence of dominance is that some dogs (and people) are not involved. 

We call them "followers", the dominant individuals are the ones we also call "leaders".


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> Bear L I can't tell your plan from your post, but I'd strongly recommend against just putting an Ecollar on your dog as insurance in case she takes off on a chase. If you hit the button in this situation and the dog doesn't know what caused the stim, she might continue the chase, or she might be startled and run in panic, or she could learn never to leave your side again. Ecollars should not be used without showing the dog what makes the stim start and how to shut it off.


My dog will be trained on it before I use it off leash. I will be learning this from my trainer and only use adopt it if my dog is a good fit for it. Thanks for the caution. 

My point is that if the e-collar can be a safety tool, I will use it. My trainer suggest it for that reason alone. It's not to zap the dog for normal training purposes. I don't have a dog that will do something just because you give it a frown. She is hard headed... combined with nervousness.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

LouCastle said:


> Oddly enough your opinion about _"the degree of psychological damage that a person using an Ecollar incorrectly could cause"_ is not supported by any literature concerning any Ecollar studies ever done. If you disagree, please show us some of those studies that support such statements.
> 
> A clicker poorly used can easily cause much confusion. I happen to think it's just as bad as the confusion that an Ecollar can cause.


 at he risk of humoring the internet god of dog training, I don't need a study and neither do you. 

You don't have to be around dogs long to find dogs that have severe psychological damage done by an ecollar and an idiot on the control. Had a neighbor with a beagle and didn't like barking. Bought an ecollar and shocked the crap out of him when I came into the yard and he barked. Dog was scared ****less of me for the rest of his life. Still barked at people.

Other story, put in an electric fence, wasn't installed properly. Dog got zapped walking into garage. Dog wouldn't leave house without being picked up shaking out of its mind.

2 simple stories I didn't even have to leave my old neighborhood for to see the devestating effects of an ecollar used incorrectly. Show me a study  please. I'm smart enough to know what was happening, and if you're as smart as you tell everyone you are, you know it too.

A clicker might cause confusion, it's not going to cause serious life long consequences from ONE misuse of it like an ecollar can. if you think differentlly you're either being willfully obtuse or you really don't know much about what you spend so much time pontificating on the internet.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

crackem said:


> at he risk of humoring the internet god of dog training, I don't need a study and neither do you.
> 
> You don't have to be around dogs long to find dogs that have severe psychological damage done by an ecollar and an idiot on the control. Had a neighbor with a beagle and didn't like barking. Bought an ecollar and shocked the crap out of him when I came into the yard and he barked. Dog was scared ****less of me for the rest of his life. Still barked at people.
> 
> ...


 
It can be good to hear from the true experts on a subject. 

Actually I once heard of someone who really messed their dog up by using one of the Halti type collars - dog wouldn't even go for a walk after that episode.

And not to mention the dreaded prong collar! And how many dogs have been ruined for life from the improper use of a muzzle?

Just really proves that any tool can be misused and abused and have a bad effect on esp. a sensitive dog. I would suspect that if a single bad experience has a life long impact on a dog behavior, that dog had some nerve/confidence problems to start with.

Even someones voice can be a weapon and destroy a timid dog's confidence.


OTOH, if an ecollar is used properly (and this can be learned from Lou's web site and his advice and guidance) then maybe the dog can learn a reliable recall and thus save his life one day - perhaps?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crackem said:


> at he risk of humoring the internet god of dog training, I don't need a study and neither do you.


Your rudeness is not appreciated. I won't return it. I'm able to stay polite and professional even if you are not. 



crackem said:


> You don't have to be around dogs long to find dogs that have severe psychological damage done by an ecollar and an idiot on the control.


It looks as if your idea of _"severe psychological damage"_ is quite different than mine. I've never had the slightest bit of trouble fixing a problem that some _"idiot on the control"_ has caused. And that rehab has been done with an Ecollar. 



crackem said:


> Had a neighbor with a beagle and didn't like barking. Bought an ecollar and shocked the crap out of him when I came into the yard and he barked. Dog was scared ****less of me for the rest of his life. Still barked at people.


Not sure why you think that this is _"severe psychological damage."_ Lots of dogs are scared of lots of things and we wouldn't classify it in this way. But because it suits your argument, you do so. The dog that I saw that had a clicker thrown at him, was forever afraid of his owner. He would not go near her, he would not allow her to touch him and he cowered and ran every time one of her hands went above her waist. Sounds like it's quite a bit more than your _"scared ****less of [you]"_ and this was *with the dog's owner *not a neighbor who has nothing to do with the dog! I've fixed the issue you describe dozens of times with dozens of dogs. It takes a couple of days, at most. Hardly a _"severe"_ problem by any stretch of the imagination. More like "just a nuisance." 

Sounds to me as if the clicker, used improperly caused much more damage than did the bark collar incident you described. BTW, a bark collar is NOT the same device that we're discussing. In any case both tools were used improperly, something that some people will only discuss when it's concerning the Ecollar. 



crackem said:


> Other story, put in an electric fence, wasn't installed properly. Dog got zapped walking into garage. Dog wouldn't leave house without being picked up shaking out of its mind.


Again, not the tool that's under discussion, but again, I'll let you have it. I've come across this several times. It takes about 3-4 days to fix this issue and then the dog never again shows any problem. Again, I don't consider this to be a _"severe psychological damage."_ You do, or you'd not have mentioned it. This is a very easily solved problem. Hardly _"severe"_ at all. 



crackem said:


> 2 simple stories I didn't even have to leave my old neighborhood for to see the devestating effects of an ecollar used incorrectly.


You characterize these problems as _"devastating"_ because you understand neither what caused the problem, nor the cure. In reality NEITHER of them are _"severe."_ Either of them is very easily fixed. 



crackem said:


> Show me a study please. I'm smart enough to know what was happening, and if you're as smart as you tell everyone you are, you know it too.


I'm sorry that you know so little about Ecollars and perhaps about dog training in general, and/or have so little experience that you think that these constitute _"severe psychological damage."_ Fixing either of these issues is a very simple matter of showing the dog what REALLY causes the stim. In the first case, the dog is shown that it's his own barking that causes it, not your presence. In the second case the dog is shown that walking into the garage does not cause stim but walking into the flagged area does. 

As the Shalke study so clearly demonstrated,


> animals, which were able to clearly associate the electric stimulus with their action ... and consequently were able to predict and control the stressor, * did not show considerable or persistent stress indicators. * [Emphasis Added]


Yes, poor use of an Ecollar (or these devices as well) can cause issues. But they are neither _"severe"_ nor _"devastating."_ They are very easily fixed in a very short period of time with an Ecollar. 



crackem said:


> A clicker might cause confusion,


A clicker used with poor timing WILL cause confusion. The owner will probably get frustrated, further interfering with the dog's learning. He may even get so frustrated that he throws his clicker, striking the dog very near its eye. Fixing the fear that this brought will take MONTHS, if can be done at all. This dog never recovered from this incident. 



crackem said:


> it's not going to cause serious life long consequences from ONE misuse of it like an ecollar can.


You're wrong, and I just showed it. 



crackem said:


> if you think differentlly you're either being willfully obtuse or you really don't know much about what you spend so much time pontificating on the internet.


No, the real problem here is that YOU don't know enough about Ecollars to fix these problems. It's a mistake to think that because you're not capable of it that someone else can't. And so you spout this nonsense, that these are _"devastating"_ and _"severe psychological damage."_ Laughable really. 

Try fixing them with a clicker and you might think that they are severe. But when you know how to use an Ecollar, they're nothing but hiccups. 

And so bottom line, we're still looking for you (any of you) to supply a study that shows that what you claim, _"severe psychological damage"_ can occur. I'll say, simply that NOT ONE STUDY ever done has shown it. And so far, neither have you.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

why try and re-frame the argument? If you think i'm going to argue against the merits of using an ecollar at times, you're barking up the wrong tree.

My statement was that an ecollar misused can cause serious and permanent psycholgical issues after a single use or very few uses. You don't have that same risk with a clicker. 

It has nothing to do with a head halter or a prong or anything. Though I'd have to say you must've really effed up the use of a head halter to screw up a dog enough it wouldn't ever walk again. That or you're making stuff up. I have seen a dog that wouldn't leave it's house willingly after exactly one shock from a collar.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou, you're also the Internet KING of the backhanded comment. quit being so modest, you do it in almost every single chopped up sentence you try and pick apart. Multiply that by X numbers of message boards infected by Lou and multiply again by the number of threads he responds to plus the shear number of posts he makes in any given day, i don't think there is anyone who could claim to even come close to you in that catagory.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crackem said:


> My statement was that an ecollar misused can cause serious and permanent psycholgical issues after a single use or very few uses.


And yet, I've shown that the problems that you described as _"severe psychological damage"_ were NEITHER severe, NOR permanent. 



crackem said:


> You don't have that same risk with a clicker.


And yet I've shown a dog that was permanently _"severe[ly] psychological[ly] damage[d]"_ through the single misuse of a clicker. Some people see only what they want to see and hear only what they want to hear. 



crackem said:


> I have seen a dog that wouldn't leave it's house willingly after exactly one shock from a collar.


AGAIN, easily fixed. ROFL. 

Interestingly you didn't mention this last situation in your previous post. I wonder, did you just make it up, as you insinuated that codmaster did?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crackem said:


> Lou, you're also the Internet KING of the backhanded comment. quit being so modest, you do it in almost every single chopped up sentence you try and pick apart.


What's the saying ... "It's not bragging if you can do it." It's nothing extraordinary. Problem solving is my specialty. What you considered to be a description of _"severe psychological damage"_ is not much at all. I think that speaks volumes about your knowledge and experience with Ecollars. 

If I put out what I considered to be _"severe psychological damage"_ and someone else thought that they were nothing but _"hiccup"_ I might be "put out" a bit. But that's your problem, not mine. You might want to stay out of the deep end if you can't swim well?! 

But really, there's no excuse for the following rudeness. Again, I'll stay polite and professional, even if you can't or won't. 



crackem said:


> Multiply that by X numbers of message boards infected by Lou and multiply again by the number of threads he responds to plus the shear number of posts he makes in any given day, i don't think there is anyone who could claim to even come close to you in that catagory.


Perhaps not. How is this about Ecollars? I'll answer my own rhetorical question. It's not. It's about someone who has been so thoroughly and publicly spanked that they can no longer control themselves. Someone who has run out of logic and reason and has to turn to the personal attack in an effort to keep even. A pity really. You should be ashamed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

crackem said:


> why try and re-frame the argument? If you think i'm going to argue against the merits of using an ecollar at times, you're barking up the wrong tree.
> 
> My statement was that an ecollar misused can cause serious and permanent psycholgical issues after a single use or very few uses. You don't have that same risk with a clicker.
> 
> It has nothing to do with a head halter or a prong or anything. Though I'd have to say you must've really effed up the use of a head halter to screw up a dog enough it wouldn't ever walk again. That or you're making stuff up. I have seen a dog that wouldn't leave it's house willingly after exactly one shock from a collar.


If that is the case, then this was a Dog with VERY weak nerves to begin with and obviously an owner who had no clue as to how to train and what tools to use. You aren't "making stuff up", are you?

Now to try to explain to you - my reference to a Halti or a prong was simply what I thought was a very simple, easy to understand (obviously not in your case - and my apologies to you for that) example of the fact that ANY TOOL can be misused and have poor consequences for training!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I certainly don't mind e collars when used appropriately. I would never put one on Frag, but I've used them on numerous other dogs during training. I've never witnessed a stressed out dog, shut down dog, unhappy dog, etc. while using one though or I would stop. There's one dog I've used it on for resource guarding that was scared to death of the clicker, but one session of the e collar changed his behavior permanently (so far...).

There are some things that you are just not going to get results with when you need them, or at all with positive reinforcement. I can't wait to get my hand bit off using R+ when I can use an e-collar for ten minutes and save the long-term stress of the dog and my flesh. You have to decide which risk you want to take, how it's going to effect the dog long-term, and whether or not you're comfortable/skilled to use a collar. 

I think even if these low setting mildy stressed the dog (which I'm sure they do, whether or not we see the signs) it is 10x better than that dog leading a stressed out life for not understanding what's expected or being put through much more stressed training trying to get the same result.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have seen a dog truly turned off to tracking by inappropriate use of a electric. It only took about the 15 minute warm up session prior to the track at a trial.

I have also seen a dog so worried about the electric, that when doing retrieves he would get frantic if he couldn't immediately see the dumbbell.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And yet again a thread discussing E-collars has deteriorated into back and forth "one ups manship" and insults. :rip:


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