# Breeders Who Don't Breed the Roach Back Look?



## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Why are more and more people breeding this look? Isn't this bad for the dog's spine?

I keep searching and that is what I'm coming up with. I'm using google and putting certain terms in and it gives me breeders but, they breed the roach back look!! I want my dog with a proper spine not a curved one. Can anyone suggest a better way to search on google that would omit these types of breeders? I'm sure not all breeders breed this look!

I don't want to limit myself to just my state that is why I'm using google. I'm mainly looking for Show lines, but a mix of both is okay with me too. Low to Mid-level drives. Of course, the proper health testing and perhaps a website. I know not all breeders have websites, but I want to get a look at all of their dogs to make a decision, if they are someone I want to personally go with. 

Any help would be a godsend!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Look for breeders breeding nice V-rated dogs that aren't necessarily the top V or VA dogs in the world. These top dogs are often the ones getting the most breedings but tend to be the most extreme. I have a full show line male and I do not think he is overly roached/curved (old pic, he's more mature now but you get the idea). He is a UKC champion, got some AKC ribbons, and is SG rated (at 13 months, I haven't shown him as an adult but the owner of his sire who is an SV judge said he would be V-rated).









The curve look comes from a combination of things with regard to the dog's conformation and isn't necessarily and indication of a bad spine or any medical problem. I like a slight curve, and I believe a slight curve helps because it absorbs impact when a dog is jumping (I think I read this in the Linda Shaw standard?) but also do not like the extreme curve. To me "roach" is not just curve but when the topline is higher over the loin than the wither. I don't like that at all, even if the curve itself is not extreme.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Your dog is the type I'm looking for. The one's I've found you can tell the difference in the overall topline, the middle of their backs you can see a "bump" look. I will take your suggestion on how to look. Thank you so much Liesje.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It can also make a difference how the dog is stacked. You cannot really change anatomy with a stack but I *can* make my dog look much more extreme if I stack him that way. Some dogs just are too extreme, but make sure to evaluate the dog not just based on a few stacked photos. Also some younger dogs can look all sorts of ugly as they grow, they get all leggy and often appear roached over the loin with a flat wither until they mature and even out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that's a very nice dog Liesje . I'm spending the day with Linda tomorrow , I'll ask her.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

I plan on it, I try and see if I can find pictures of the parents in a relax state and not when they are just being stacked. I may email some breeders and see if they have some other photos and explain what I'm looking for.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

carmspack said:


> that's a very nice dog Liesje . I'm spending the day with Linda tomorrow , I'll ask her.


Thanks, I thought I remembered reading that on her site with an explanation of arches (in architecture) being more stable and the same thing applying to active dogs. But obviously some have taken this to the extreme, not just the curves in the back but the extreme steep croup, angulation, etc.....I'm preaching to the choir, lol....


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Sadly, and oddly, way too many stack photos are being photoshopped to a "template" topline--one that is _roached! _Oryou'll see the handler's knee or hand pushing down on the hip to make the dog lean forward and crouch down in the rear.

This drives me nuts.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

There are so many other things that can drive you nuts...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Not ALL breeders of conformation lines....have "roached back looking dogs".
And yes.....the "stacked" pictures can give an illusion exhibiting a "curved appearance" to a topline.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the thinking is an arch is the strongest line between two points - but this , as so many things is taken to an extreme. 
As was explained to me , there is an associative dip behind the whither or a low whither in relation to the arch in the back. The neck appears shortened because the vertabrae of the neck are "slipping" into the dip --- . The exaggerated roach, banana, hump back actually detract from the spines flexibility and hinder jumping . The built up area that you may be thinking of is a muscular bundle just over the loin which by exercise gets bulked . 
Linda Shaws web site will be down for a while , under construction. When it is back up there promises to be lots and lots of new information, articles, blogs , illustrations etc, and a new e-book will be available. Incisive articles , no punches pulled.
Next will be my web site with lots of renovations .

The slight angle to the pastern is what absorbs the impact of the jump.

I asked -- I know I did not deliver the information as well as Linda explained to me . Sorry.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm having an issue with the statement about an arch being a very strong structure and thus good for a dog's back. An arch is only strong in its ability to support compression forces, i.e., when pressing down from above (or pulling down from below such as in a suspension bridge). The forces are resolved to pushing out on the ends, like this:









But that's not what happens in a dog. Other than wearing a backpack- there is little force pushing down, or pulling down on the dogs back. In fact, the back is totally articulated in the fact that it's made of vertebrae. If you consider a dog to be like the arch picture above, the legs would make up the vertical supports. And since the legs move forward and backward (as in, to the left and right in the pic), the arch ultimately has very little support.

An arch is good when you have stationary vertical supports. If your vertical supports are not going to remain vertical- an arch is a poor design. So for me, trying to justify a roached back by applying the arch concept makes little sense. That's my opinion based on the engineering and physics classes I took in college.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> So for me, trying to justify a roached back by applying the arch concept makes little sense.


It makes little sense to me because the standard says the back should be straight :-/


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when Canto Wienerau came onto the scene he was a bit of a sensation because he provided a short strong back , a solution to a problem of long stretched dogs with somewhat sagging backs. Look at some of the very long bodied american bred show dogs and you will see whippy motion to the back . The body needs to be longer to accommodate the stride coming from long limbs and laid back shoulders. The overall length does not allow for a suspended trot , but a supported trot where 3 legs at a time are in contact with the ground. In the suspended trot there is a period where no legs are on the ground.

The exaggerated arch, roach, back has no motion , is not flexible , alters the dogs quick turning differential and causes the front end to be lifted when in motion.
Transitions into other gaits take longer - with a period of pace between.

Some lines , including Czech breeders , lines that continued to what we now recognize as working did use him well , once , and then continued with their programmes.

As Linda said look at all the heavy animals , elephants, hippos , (forget what else she used as examples) they need the arch to hold the weight that is draped on them .

These are not dogs.

People may know , from other sites , that I have said that the arched back and the unnatural placement of the neck make long distance tracking uncomfortable , the head can't drop without strain somewhere else. 

Jumping, can't extend . Back can't go down and come back up .

in the von Stephanitz book he talks at length about all the duties a herding dog has , which includes going bravely into deep water to control the sheep when they are being dipped . Another place where structure is important , to paddle for so long , and have the neck forward . 

Somewhere on this forum months ago someone questioned the neck length of DDR dogs (which are actually good) 

In the von Stephanitz book, in my edition page 270 there is mention of the rittmeisters personal dog , a female "my military service bitch during the War covered most of the time a good 20-30 miles every day, running behind my horse or my carriage . Occassionally she did considerably more, and never showed the slightest fatigue in spite of the fact that, after the manner of dogs, she mostly doubled the distanced by running to and fro, always galloping after crows and exploring the country . Even after the horse was put into a sharp trot she was able to keep step with it over long distances, without ever galloping or getting out of breath. "

Page 271 supported by illustration on page 270 Fig 208 Herold von der Hurde HGH , von Stephanitz writes "Before the Tending Competition at Magdeburg in Sept 1919 , the 9 year old Herold von der Hurde 27001 HGH had to run for three hours behind a bicycle in the blazing sun. He then took part in the Competition quite fresh and full of keeness, and had again to return, trotting for a good three hours in order to work at once . "

"I have seen military service dogs that ran a distance of about 2 1/2 miles in 7 minutes while conveying a message , which works out , when one includes the short stop to deliver the message at its destination , about 650 yards a minute, and this is a very sharp hunting gallop for a horse" 

More to be read. 

The dog as a herding dog is built for speed , and for distance . Well knit , powerful, sinewy.

If you have the book check out Herold on page 270.

so yesterday we went out and bought some sophisticated camera equipment so that videos of dogs in motion can be put up on the new web sites . 

Carmen
htt


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> the "stacked" pictures can give an illusion exhibiting a "curved appearance" to a topline


Honest question....how is that possible if the dog doesn't already have a curvature of the spine (slight or otherwise)? It's not really a secret within American show circles that if you want to make a dog appear to have "more topline" you jam a thumb in his hip to get him to squat more....but the back still remains straight, with no curvature.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you tap the inside of the thigh , the back or inside of the knee the dog will buckle , which shortens him up. old handler trick.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

If you scroll halfway down the page, you'll see a stacked dog and the same dog standing naturally. I don't like it when breeders only show stacked photos. I like to see both. I don't have a good enough eye to look at a stacked dog and know what it would look like standing naturally.

Conformation


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Xeph.....with alot of ASL the upper arm is very long (but not very angled)..and they have generally a high wither, but not a good lay back of shoulder.
IF the dog is straighter in front, higher in wither & short in lay back...and be slightly longer in body.....you can easily get a "ironing board look to the back" when stacking and slightly pushing on the rear (or not).
Carlos can take a straight-backed dog.....stack it a "certain" way and *make* it look horribly roached in a pic. *We have done this when he has been asked to do handling/conformation mini seminars*.
If a dog's highest point is the middle of the back (even having a straighter top-line), by pushing on the rear...you will get a "curved appearance"....or a boomerang look.

(for example)....Our male Ivan does not have a curve in his back at all...he has a very good length and angle in front, high wither & a very nice lay of shoulder.....but if Carlos stacks him (_for the look_)...he can appear to have a slight "curve" from shoulder to tail.
When Ivan is standing normal...you can see a beautiful, firm, strong top-line (albeit he is a little stretched).highest point at wither/shoulder, lowest part at croup/tail......and in movement...well, lets just say.....very ground covering with little effort and non pounding.

I have been completely surprised on how "bad" Carlos can make a dog "look" in a stand.....even really nice dogs.
There is nothing wrong with a dog that has a slight "curve" to a top-line in a photo.....I'm *not* speaking about a dog that looks like an accordion, nor a boomerang.

*there will always be a debate about top-lines...don't EVEN care to engage in one....my only comment is to the visual effect, that can be seen in some pictures.*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog will reveal all in motion, off leash, loose leash .
THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Carmen and all, thank you for your replies. It got me to thinking and I've been searching outside of the US, just to see if the look varied depending on country (I bypassed the obvious euro countries where they breed this look), I did see a difference in one breeder so far. I've found a breeder starting with the initals "K" that have nice dogs. She is located in Mexico, I think I will email her to ask some questions and see if she has some time to chat through email. Since she's breeds dogs that can both show and work. Hmm, have to see if she ships to the US and other factors. I like all of the dogs she has, if I don't like all of the dogs of a breeder that is an indication to me that I should keep looking. 

I'm not saying that the dogs wouldn't be awesome, but they would be awesome for someone else. If I like all the dogs of a breeder that means even if that litter is taken I can still wait for the next litter; so if I don't like the other dogs its just best to look some place else. Sometimes a breeder only breeds every so often, I've learned this in other breeds as well.

I will still be looking like crazy, its like a needle in a haystack to find what I want, lol. That has happened with other breeds I've looked at; however, I always manage to find that one special breeder where it just "clicks" for me. 

I can't wait to hear more of what Linda has to say. Carmen you are a well of information and thank you for replying to this. Hopefully the breeder is the one I've been looking for, if not I will keep looking.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Well we had a very good conversation as normal -- she was recalling an american show line female that she owned that defeated every dog , including the entry that Jimmy Moses had, including the GVx . The only dog she could not defeat was Lynriks Kristal Ch. Lynrik's Kristal
I remember this female , this was the tail end of my interest in american dogs. 

Each category is a study unto itself. It is difficult to be fluent in all of them, american show, the continuing split of the wgsl , working lines, the ddr dogs which were on the horizon, the czech , etc.

the new web site guarantees to be very interesting -- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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