# Stubborn, willfull, strong lines...



## Puputz (May 9, 2007)

Just a general question to throw out there I guess. What do you know mixes well with lines that draw strengths from stubborn, hard (ala Korbelbach) in order to preserve those strengths, but at the same time add biddability and so on? Is this even possible?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I was just talking to someone about biddability. And talking about my DDR female who always had her own agenda. I have her daughter and a paternal half brother by Xito Maneiche. These two are drivy - can take a correction without losing drive, the female is more in tune and really really wants to please me so is real controllable by voice. It is truly amazing considering the big doggy fingers her mom was prone to that she is so biddable, the biddability I did a litter with Enno Fuchsstein, who was a Neck Maineiche grandson, thus a Xento great grandson - so far those pups are reportedly very biddable - but their mother is much more biddable than Csabres mother. So the Xento Maineiche line and I think that Ilja Schwartzen Zwinger/V litter Fasanerie may contribute well to this also.

I also love my Ufo v Guy's Hof female and what she produces for biddability. 

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

YES, it is possible. http://www.zutreuenhanden.com/Vala.htm One such combination that worked very well. And her littermates:
http://www.zutreuenhanden.com/Blitter.htm Both sire and dam were VERY hard dogs. Dam I would consider stubborn if you want to use that term. She definitely will give you the middle toe at times. Though I was told some of this is coming from Iko and Jenni Lindenhalle. But she was also willing if you found the right way to ask. I like the Körbelbachs for their hardness. 

Fero, Greif, U litter Kirschental bring in biddability. So can some of the old herding lines if you can find them.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

I'm not quite sure why people want to see stubborn GSDs.
To me hardness does not equate to stubborness. You can get hard GSDs that are not stubborn, and hard GSDs that are stubborn, so why settle for the latter?
I see these as 2 unrelated traits.
Or I'm not quite so sure what people mean by a hard dog. What is the definition?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Semantics in this sport is very interesting and at the same time very frustrating.

Hard - in my realm of experience - ie as used by people I have trained and worked with - is the ability of the dog to take pressure in a correction or training without losing drive for the work. When people talk about highline dogs with drive, I have seen many highline dogs with drive...it is much harder to find the highline dog who is hard, can take pressure to be correct in the work, can take a correction - not just in protection, but in obedience and tracking as well. Hard is determination / drive overshadowing environment and circumstance. 

I am sure others will have a different definition

Stubborn has nothing to do with hard IMO. My dog who is not biddable is not really stubborn, she was very smart - she did not see the importance of what I wanted LOL she just often had something more important or interesting to do - like explore groundhog dens in the middle of a Schh3 track!!! or survey the crowd from the top of the A frame or before picking up the dumbbell - or look for friends or foes in a crowd when sent for the dumbbell...her attitude was always upbeat, just "yea, give me a second,







I'm busy, I'll get to you"...sort of like the teen age store clerk flirting instead of taking care of business. I often had to resort to very very strong corrections to get my point accross - as in, you WILL stay in a down by a strong physical placement...she was very very challenging for a first dog to title. She had many other great qualities, super nerves, resilient, tenacious, absolute stellar nerves environmentally, great innate tracking and hunt drive, SG, KKL1, head to die for, good color and pigment - the good and desirable things far outweighed that lack of biddability as far as pursuing titles and breeding potential.

I specifically bred to a male I felt could add that strong sense of biddability and a dog who would work for me, and not only got what I wanted from the breeding but even more than I expected.

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Stubborn is a human term often used to describe dogs that don't fit into a handler's typical training methods. Many of these dogs just need handler's capable of thinking outside the box. 

Lee is right that we have to look at the whole dog when breeding. The idea is to keep a balance, accentuating the good while improving on the faults. Some dogs are harder to train, but bring other exceptional traits to the breed.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree that hardness and stubbornness do not go hand in hand. They are too different things, and once can certainly have a hard dog that is also very biddable.

To me, hardness is the dog's ability to meet and overcome negative stimuli. Be it a correction, getting a toe or tail stepped on, pressure from the handler, or pressure from the helper, a "hard" dog will work through discomfort and pressure, bouncing back quickly from a negative stimulus without losing drive or attitude. And ideally will be even more determined and work even harder afterwards. 

But such a dog doesn't need to be a butthead in general. A GSD shouldn't be "stubborn", it should be happily willing to work and take direction from the handler. But no matter how willing a dog is genetically, if the handler isn't able to communicate clearly to the dog, and motivate and reward the dog properly and in a way the dog understands, the results aren't going to be what the handler wants. 



> Originally Posted By: lhczthStubborn is a human term often used to describe dogs that don't fit into a handler's typical training methods. Many of these dogs just need handler's capable of thinking outside the box.


I agree. I haven't met too many dogs I would actually classify as stubborn, and most I have met were breeds other than GSDs. I've met many dog's whose handlers were unable to properly motivate and communicate with their dog. 

I used to consider my first SchH dog stubborn. And even moreso than his perceived stubbornness, the thing that bothered me the most about it was that he wasn't that way all the time. He was the most willing, attentive dog in the world... until we got on the protection field. Looking back now, it's quite obvious that the alarm bell should have gone off in my head that there was something amiss with the training or the handling, because dog's don't go through some bizarre personality change at training. But I was too ignorant and inexperienced a the time to see that, or to know how to approach things differently with.. and it was easier to blame the dog. Of course the truth is that he was the same willing dog on the protection field as he was everywhere else, and our constant butting of heads in protection was training mistakes and communication failures on my part. 

I have trained and titled dogs that would be considered "hard" by anyone's definition, and others that were quite soft and handler sensitive... too much so for my taste. I much prefer a hard dog. But once I learned to look to myself and my techniques as the source of conflict, and not blame the dog for being stubborn if he doesn't want to do things my way, I've noticed very little difference between my hard dogs and soft dogs in terms of biddability. The thing that did impact my perception of the dog's biddability was how easily I was able to communicate with the dogs. 

I'm working two young bitches right now, one who's as hard as they come and another who's pretty close. The 2 are half sisters, but they learn VERY differently. The first was one of those dog's I clicked with right off the bat. She's always seemed practically clairvoyant in her ability to easily understand what I want, and to willingly and happily comply. The other has been much more difficult to figure out and we've butted heads and had some conflict because of that. Several times I've to step back and figure out a different way of teaching her, and we've gone through some times of trial and error that frustrated us both. But once I hit on what works for her, she shows herself to be every bit as biddable as her half sister. She's not stubborn at all, though at times it may seem like it or be tempting for me to accuse her of such. She's very willing, I just have to adjust my approach so it makes sense to her.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I had a dog that could have been called "stubborn", but more than that, I'd called her "selfish". But not because she was born selfish, it was entirely me who made her that way. It was the first time I was introduced to clicker training and I used and abused of treats. Everything went fine until she ended maturing. She is the smartest dog I've ever met, but at 4 years old she had her own agenda and wouldn't care what I asked if not with a big lure in front of her nose. Was it genetic? Maybe 2% of it, but it was me who made a lot of mistakes on her and the responsible of the other 98%.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I didn't think to mention when I posted earlier, but it further illustrates that hardness and stubbornness are completely separate traits. 

We do have one dog, Nara, who I would call legitimately stubborn. It's not training. It's her. She has always been obstinate, has never had any sort of work ethic or desire to please and has always had her own agenda. She's extremely intelligent, but also about the most untrainable GSD I've ever met. Frankly, our cats are more biddable than she is. 

And she is also what I would consider a very soft dog. She can't take much in the way of a leash or verbal correction before she shuts down, can't take any pressure from handler (or from the helper when she was young and we tried her at SchH), and she bounces back from any sort of negative experience very, very slowly. 

She's lucky that she's sweet, social, cuddly, and has a very clownish and fun loving personality making her a pretty delightful house pet. Because if not for all the amusement she provides it would be hard to put up with her!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I had a female that went back on the Körbelbachs through her sire and Harro, Wicko Meran and some show on the bottom. She was HARD, but also VERY VERY biddable. She was also linebred on Racker Itztal who could bring trainability. This was a dog that wanted to please. So, another example of bringing willingness (coming from Harro) to hardness (Alf Stoffelblick).


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

do you think an extremely domanant dog would fit into this catagory? or is that considered an intirely different trait? i guess domanance could be mistaken for stubborness.
we had a male belgium/east german gsd that was very dominant and i catagorized him as being stubborn before i figured it out.
debbie


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I've crossed Korbelbach lines with Asko Lutter, Marc Herkulesblick and Boy von Haus Klonne successfully. The current litter I have the dam is linebred 3-4 on Orlie Korbelbach, 4-5 Hexe Korbelbach and Blue Scipio. I bred her to a Asko Lutter son-this is a repeat breeding-I got extremely biddable, high drives while being clear, that excellent focus that is natural-dogs who want to work just to work...
I also bred my Gary Korbelbach daughter to the same Asko lutter son with similar results as well as a Boy son-both gave me that biddability I like.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I consider dominance to be something entirely different. I own three dominant bitches (makes life so much fun







) yet only one is not as biddable as she could be. 

I just took the bitch from my first example to the same Asko son that Trish used. I actually added more Körbelbach with the linebreeding on Arek Stoffelblick, but also some more biddable lines. I had originally planned on taking this female to another male that would have brought in several crosses to Mink and would have been a linebreeding on Iko Lindenhalle (very hard and strong dogs). This dog was a good balance of the Mink mixed with the very trainable lines. Unfortunately that wasn't meant to happen.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I agree with Lisa - dominance is different....My most biddable female is also very very dominant - I cannot have her with other females, and she has even challenged my male who is dominant (same sire) and he will back away from her. 

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lisa, I had a female line bred on Racker - bought her as an in whelp older dog after trying to get her for 2 years...she was by Brix Kapfwald, out of an Arek Stoffelblick daughter. Her pups are extremely stable and biddable - I only wish I had not lost my male from her to a unscrupulous situation. I would love to breed to him with one of my next generation from Basha. (Bruce said he should be a good producer !)

Lee


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I agree with Lisa and Lee on the dominance issue..I've had dominant dogs which had nothing to do with their biddability.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

ok, makes sense. but, i can see how some could get dominance and stubborness confused with some dogs. especially if there is domanance and biddable personalities going on.

debbie


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

> Quote:I'm not quite sure why people want to see stubborn GSDs.
> To me hardness does not equate to stubborness. You can get hard GSDs that are not stubborn, and hard GSDs that are stubborn, so why settle for the latter?
> I see these as 2 unrelated traits.


I agree, I don't really like stubborn dogs but as already said you have to look at the total dog and if they bring other good qualities I could overlook it....I consider stubborn dogs as ones who are just lacking the pack drive/biddability/genetic obedience whatever you want to call it.

Some people are talking about dominance but to do with other dogs ? A dog can be dominant with other dogs but biddable but is this dominant with their handlers, and biddable ?

I have a Dolf vh Ming grandaughter, through her damline- her sireline goes to Troll vd Bosen Nachbarshaft, Gary korbelbach, kuran tiekerhook, Gento and Anker Ursania. I guess I could class her as a bit stubborn. She works to please herself not me !! She has some ball drive, prey ok buy not enough to work with, her best drive would be food drive. ! So I can only bribe her with food and use compulsion ! lucky she has food drive but even so I find her hard to work with sometimes to motivate her....and I wonder with her lines since they are not really known for their biddability( from what I hear and after seeing alot of her relatives) and if these dogs don't have enough drive to work with you only have compulsion...which is not such a good thing.
I am only a novice handler so with a more exp handler I'm sure she could be better, but still perhaps I am comparing her too much to a dog who did have alot more biddability. This bitch can take a correction fine but she does not have good nerves for protection work.

I wonder with these *sport* lines, dogs that are bred for many generations to excel at Schutzhund, some of the need for pack drive, natural biddability is lost ? what are everyone's thoughts ?

If all they need to succeed in training obedience is crazy ball/prey drive and breeders are not selecting for dogs who can do obedience without having to dangle a ball in the dogs's face then overtime wouldn't the bloodlines/dogs with the ability to work from pack drive/genetic obedience be lost ? Isn't that what working breeders always say unless you select for a certain qualities you want to keep, you lose them over time.
I should say the dog I had before her did not have heaps of biddability like a border collie LOL, just normal.. he sometimes had his own agenda but was more easy to work with, more wanted to work with you.. this Dolf vh Ming grandaughter just has very little of that, she's a sweet dog otherwise and is doing good in obedience,agility.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:I wonder with these *sport* lines, dogs that are bred for many generations to excel at Schutzhund, some of the need for pack drive, natural biddability is lost ? what are everyone's thoughts ?


Disagree. SchH is obedience. Lots and lots of obedience. A dog that isn't biddable to a certain degree, a dog that doesn't want to work with his handler and is always fighting with his handler is not going to score well. 

Many of the Haus Ming dogs go into KNPV and not just SchH. I have a daughter of Citty vom Haus Ming who is bred almost exactly like Dolf. Citty was then bred to a dog that was linebred on the T litter Körbeblach to produce my bitch. These are tough hard dogs that do have a bit of a mind of their own. Not always the best "sport" dogs, but when crossed the right way they can produce some exceptional dogs for sport and work.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I donot consider the Haus Ming lines as typical of sport breeding. You are right in many of these dogs compete in KNPV. Where we differ is that Nellie's premise of "sport lines" having too much drive(ball, play, prey) as opposed to more balance and biddability is something that has evolved in the past twenty years. Many police trainers have long since noticed this. Yes, the Haus Ming lines do work KNPV which is the closest sport to preparing real working police dogs, but....you don't see a lot of the top sport lines in KNPV work like the Haus Ming.Ask the KNPV people why, and I think you will find that these sport dogs don't generally adapt as well to this type of training.Now sport people are going to tell you that they can, but the practitioners of KNPV and the statistics themselves don't support this.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: that excellent focus that is natural-dogs who want to work just to work...


Which lines bring this trait? 

I have this same trait in my bitch.. My male has it too, just not as pronounced.. But could have been had I owned him as a pup.. 

I've seen some dogs that refuse to look at their handlers.. Even at a young age..

So I'm assuming this natural focus is a genetic trait?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It is more difficult to identify lines as opposed to singular dogs that were known for producing it. (Rakker, Kirchental,Ali Granert,etc) But we must remember that a dogs temperament is made up with a combination and intergration of drives and or traits that combine with the environmentat/training mode to produce the temperament that you see at say 2 years old. With this in mind, you see my thoughts earlier that the last 20 years of sport have sought such drives in some areas that we often don't have the balance or the drive overruns the biddability. Now take this drive and take the techniques of puppy imprinting to further increase this drive and the balance becomes further skewed. One of the reasons that DDR/Czech dogs are used by SAR/Police in such abundance is because they are usually handler sensible and moderate drives thus making them very easy for the regular police officer and or SAR handler to use effectively. You don't have to be an expert trainer to handle the dog. You don't HAVE to have the dog in a Sch home because the drives are so off the chart that the regular good home for a dog won't suffice without a lot of grief. The breed wasn't designed to be that specialized to own or to work. 
There are still lines (Maineche was mentioned and it goes back to Marko v Cellerland, a biddable dog) that are biddable, especially herding lines!!!! One last point....you also NEVER see any herding lines at the top of the sch trials, is this because the herding dogs don't have correct shepherd temperament or that sport has evolved into something away from shepherd temperament....Food for thought!


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

> Quote: Quote:
> that excellent focus that is natural-dogs who want to work just to work...
> Which lines bring this trait?


I mentioned the lines in my post- but to me you also have to look at the parents. Both the sire and the dam possess that trait so one of my goals was to try to reproduce that in the litter. It's also about selecting for those traits...to me it all comes down to that desire to please, temperament and wanting to work. The breed should still be versatile. 


I also wonder if maybe the dogs over the years haven't changed that much, but the training has...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Cliff is right - there are so many dogs in the third and fourth generations that it is a jigsaw puzzle to try to figure out what comes from where....I am working with differnet combinations of same dogs...I have the dogs going to Xento Maineiche (2 different avenues), and to Tom Leefdaalhof (2 again), and to Ufo (daughter and grandget) and (heavy) Lord G. which I live wtih and breed and raise pups from - but different combinations....I had Mink via Jago Lindenhalle in one litter, and I saw less biddablity in some of those, and dogs who needed more time to mature in their personality (females)...

I see/get reports of biddability very strong in the dogs going to Xento, and it is overridding the lesser biddabity of the Lord dogs (my less biddable dog also has Nessel heavily so Gento too and Uwe K. - she is not a high point scoring sport dog, but 2 times HIT and 4?5? Schh3 and V rated in protection through just hard work!)...the Ufo bitch being bred compensates as expected with the Tom lines....the Xento coming in gave even more biddability and natural focus than the Mink litter it sounds like...I had two litters with Troll BN - though Yoshey and through Aly - and the Aly son I used was also line bred on xento...so it is truly an intellectual exercise - and bottom line is it is still mostly guesswork.

Lee


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## Puputz (May 9, 2007)

Thanks for all of this guys. It's certainly a very interesting discussion. I do think when it comes down to it training will affect the dog more than genetics will, not to mention the many different aspects that may or may not give the impression of biddability even though it's there if you tap it properly.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Nelly
> I wonder with these *sport* lines, dogs that are bred for many generations to excel at Schutzhund, some of the need for pack drive, natural biddability is lost ? what are everyone's thoughts ?
> 
> If all they need to succeed in training obedience is crazy ball/prey drive and breeders are not selecting for dogs who can do obedience without having to dangle a ball in the dogs's face then overtime wouldn't the bloodlines/dogs with the ability to work from pack drive/genetic obedience be lost ? Isn't that what working breeders always say unless you select for a certain qualities you want to keep, you lose them over time.


Maybe to certain degree yes, because those dog dogs with crazy ball drive look impressive in the training field. That is, when the all comes after every good exercise. But for advanced levels it's not enough, a dog that is all prey drive and lacks of pack drive can performance in a long routine where the reward is withdrew for him exercise after exercise after exercise and under a lot of pressure. Then the dog has to work not only for the hope to receive a ball at the end, if the prey drive is no enough the dog would deconcentrate, if the drive is over the roof the dog could not cope with the waiting and to get to anxious to do a good work.

I'll talk of SAR because it's what I know better (and when select a dog for SAR, I prefer to select from SchH bloodlines). For SAR you want a dog with super prey drives, but prey drive alone can keep a dog searching for 30, max. 40 minutes, not for 5 days. To keep and keep searching after no reward (you can reward with a simulated search every night before to go to the tent, but that in itself is not enough) the dog has to feel than he is with his pack, that you and him are hunting together and if you have a strong pack drive then that... it's a reward in itself. 

When I selected my pup I looked for it to play with the rag, I looked for a fearless pup, but I also looked for that one that spontaneously liked my face.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: PuputzThanks for all of this guys. It's certainly a very interesting discussion. I do think when it comes down to it training will affect the dog more than genetics will, not to mention the many different aspects that may or may not give the impression of biddability even though it's there if you tap it properly.


Cannot disagree more!







I have biddable and I have non biddable. And put Schh3 on both of them. Nope, no way, no how....genetics must be there in order to train the dog and the dog to want to train. LOL LOL LOL Come to my house - I will give you the same demonstration I gave the people today who bought a DDR x WGSL pup today. 

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Puputz,
Must disagree about training affecting dogs more than genetics. If that were the case you would have all subsets of dogs(West German, DDR, Czech,West working, American show, etc), competing at top levels depending on who the trainer is.A top trainer would be able to take a GOOD dog from any of those subsets and make it to the top. Don't take my word, ask the top trainers can any of these dogs do top work/sport if they have good training. Now if training is the bigger factor and the TOP practitioners of training can't take certain subsets to the highest levels, than genetics must be more important than training in the big scheme of things. Both are necessary for a top dog, but the old expression of "You can't shines--t" applies. If the genetics aren't there you are limited to what you can accomplish. If the genetics are there, then the ability of the trainer is the height you can achieve.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would also agree that Genetics plays the biggest part in this. you can train a dog 24-7, and if the dog does not have the confidence,focus, stablility within its gene line, you definitely have some major limitations.

debbie


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: WolfstraumCliff is right - there are so many dogs in the third and fourth generations that it is a jigsaw puzzle to try to figure out what comes from where....I am working with differnet combinations of same dogs...I have the dogs going to Xento Maineiche (2 different avenues), and to Tom Leefdaalhof (2 again), and to Ufo (daughter and grandget) and (heavy) Lord G. which I live wtih and breed and raise pups from - but different combinations....I had Mink via Jago Lindenhalle in one litter, and I saw less biddablity in some of those, and dogs who needed more time to mature in their personality (females)...
> 
> I see/get reports of biddability very strong in the dogs going to Xento, and it is overridding the lesser biddabity of the Lord dogs (my less biddable dog also has Nessel heavily so Gento too and Uwe K. - she is not a high point scoring sport dog, but 2 times HIT and 4?5? Schh3 and V rated in protection through just hard work!)...the Ufo bitch being bred compensates as expected with the Tom lines....the Xento coming in gave even more biddability and natural focus than the Mink litter it sounds like...I had two litters with Troll BN - though Yoshey and through Aly - and the Aly son I used was also line bred on xento...so it is truly an intellectual exercise - and bottom line is it is still mostly guesswork.
> 
> Lee


This is why I'll never breed, I don't think at the age of *cough* that I could begin to learn lines and traits and....before I die.


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## Puputz (May 9, 2007)

Hmm, I worded that wrong. I meant to say that all the genetics in the world won't help you if you're not working the dog right. An example would be getting a dog of the Korbelbach type, and then wondering why it fought you all the time when all you did was compulsion. Then of course you have created a stubborn dog, when in fact there are other ways to work with his personality. Naturally I do believe in genetics, or I would have never put this thread up in the first place.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I should clarify on my statement on about training....I totally agree the dog has to have it genetically-that to me is obvious. What I do think though training styles have changed over the years. I think that plays into how people chose prospects for competiton/work/even breeding.That drive for the ball/tug/ toy, etc...it's become quite commonplace to use that method in training. Then people will complain the dog is too "sporty" not "real" enough. Again, it comes down to what traits you breed for-again, balance for me.


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## Booga (Dec 15, 2007)

I have a very stubborn GSD, but she is such a baby! She hates to be yelled at and does not like pressure at all! You just have to keep working on them, but be carefull do not break there spirit, then it just gets worse!


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Cliff wrote...


> Quote: donot consider the Haus Ming lines as typical of sport breeding. .


Haus Ming is pretty much tight linebreedings on Mink and the Lindehalle dogs, same west german lines found in many top sport dogs today. What lines are considered top sport to you cliff ? orry antverpa, Fado, Fero ? 



> Quote: You are right in many of these dogs compete in KNPV. Where we differ is that Nellie's premise of "sport lines" having too much drive(ball, play, prey) as opposed to more balance and biddability is something that has evolved in the past twenty years. Many police trainers have long since noticed this


Agree.

I have some old BSP tapes from the 80's and some of the dogs were just heeling normally looking ahead. I wonder if some of those dogs if they competed in recent times would do very well, if they didn't have high enough ball drive to gain the focus on the handler's face ?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nelly,
The Ming and Mink blood concentrated bring the high active aggression. The other names you mentions are examples of strong sport blood to go along with many others. 
As for the older dogs and focus heeling. You could have gotten the focused obedience from the older dogs as it is just an obedience exercise. The issue would have been at what PRICE would you have to give. With the lack of excessive prey it would be hard to bring the dog back to happiness after repeated corrections. With the higher active aggression especially in protection obedience the dog would be in conflict from regular obedience because of the active aggression making the dog WANT to focus on the decoy/helper in transports etc. In this I think the dog is smarter than people, its ridiculous for a dog to take his eyes off the decoy in a transport unless it is play/sport. At your next trial see what most dogs do.....the older dogs weren't built like that(smile) Thank God!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cliff, it is still just training for the most part. 

The dogs I worked in the 80's from bloodlines that were more from the 60's and 70's had excellent drive for toys and food. They had flashy obedience even then. The difference is probably how resilient these dogs were. Though positive motivational training was just starting to be used in AKC obedience, most people still used the old jerk and praise. The dogs competing at the top in SchH often endured fairly brutal (by today's standards) training. Do I think they have gone a bit too far the other way, yes. I hate seeing dogs doing flashy Mal heeling during the back transport, never looking at the helper. Most judges that I know or have trialed under will knock a dog for doing this. The skill in protection is to get correct position during the transports while having the dog always watching the helper. Part of the problem I have with SchH training is that most handlers have decided to forgo fight, squelch aggression in favor of point perfect control. It is the easy way. 

And to go along with what Cliff posted: Mink was used to balance out the flashier/sportier lines. He brought active aggression, strong nerves, hardness.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, 
I agree the end result was training, but the Marko, Mutz, Enno, Bernd, Lines didnot not have over the top prey. I owned Marko son, Meik(Mutz's brother)grandson, Enno grandson through Arko vom Rossbach, and Bodo(Bernd's brother)grandson. All these dogs I worked in all phases of training and Enno grandson became Deleware State Police K-9, and none of these dogs had over the top prey drive. Good prey drive but their drive definitely wasn't stronger than their brains. The prey today is excessive in many many cases that unbalances the dog. Everything else I agree with you(smile).ps by unbalances, I don't mean the dog is not capable of working, I more mean it becomes what i call a specialization dog that often needs an accomplished trainer to get maximum reults from the dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You're right. They were not Mal like. But I guess the dogs I own now are not either. Still very balanced dogs. Many of the breeders I know also work to breed balanced dogs. I do see the dogs you are talking about. Dogs where there is a constant battle to keep them from going into overdrive. I don't see this, though, as too much drive so much as a weakness of the nerves.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My Alk daughter is heavy on Bernd, Ex Reidenstein (sp?) carries Enno too I belive - she has "real" prey - defintely not over the top toy/prey. Her obedience has never been flashy, but is correct none the less, good solid ob, not pretty heeling, but adequate, very nice correct motion exercises, good outs on dumbbell and sleeve, good ob in protection...looks at the helper naturally during the transports. Her daughter, from a direct male line from Marko, is much much more flashy in ob, has more toy drive but still extremely civil and has suspicion.

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee, Lisa,
I know both of you breed strong balanced lines. I think many people get the cause of percieved stubboness confused. I agree that drives, nerves, and in some cases plain dominance issues all can be basis of perceived stubboness.


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