# Sticky  GSD Color Coat Chart



## darylehret

I've made a text-selectable Adobe Acrobat version of my color coat chart available.

http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf

Explanation of it's use can be found at http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm


----------



## Mary Jane

The chart is wonderful, thanks a lot. Do I understand that there is one locus for coat color with four alleles: a, as, at, and aw with aw dominant(partially?) to everything else, as dominant to at and a, and at dominant to a? I guess I should look at your explanation. Anyway it's great. Mary Jane


----------



## darylehret

You've probably explained it better than I have /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif There is, however some debate that the bicolor ("at" allele) is not actually determined in the agouti locus. But for all intents and purposes, this melanistic feature is included "supposedly" without affecting the reliability of the chart.


----------



## angelaw

Looks good, but the white letters are kinda hard to read. Just a thought, but nicely done!


----------



## darylehret

Angela,

Good idea /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/03_wink.gif I outlined the white lettering with shadow (no other color seemed to stand out any better). If you go to the page and refresh you should see a difference. Probably best viewed at about 150% magnification.


----------



## Honeybee1999

Nevermind--answered my own question. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif Cool chart, btw.


----------



## northwoodsGSD

*Hmmmmmmmm*

Well ok I suck at reading thisLOL. I have a (black)Sable, both sire and dam are Sable. On sire side grandsire is a (black) Sable and Granddam is a Bicolor. On dam side the grandsire is black/tan and granddam is a Sable. With this info can one determine what type(aw+aw, ect) of Sable my dog is? 
If one wanted to breed for a specific color how do you determine what color to breed to what? DISCLAIMER: I am not a breeder and have no intentions of breeding.
Thanks


----------



## EastGSD

*Re: Hmmmmmmmm*

Your puppy is either Sable carrying Sable, Sable carrying black, or Sable carrying black and tan.....it is not that easy to figure out due to the presence of the Bi color bitch...they usually carry black so you do not know what the sire inherited from his dam, black or black and tan....do you know what the other colors were that appeared in your pups litter?

Why do you say your puppy is a black sable? Do you have photos of him you can share? Especially of his legs feet and stomach area? lol


----------



## EastGSD

*Re: Hmmmmmmmm*

OK, I went and looked at your photobucket bucket page lol I would agree he is a black sable...with my hypothisis I feel he is a sable carrying black. I say this because I feel that black sables are actually sables carrying black that also inherited the bi-color patterning.....my guess is that if he were bred to a black bitch you would get nothing but sables and blacks.

JMO
Cherri


----------



## EastGSD

*Re: Hmmmmmmmm*

Ok me again lol I went and looked at your boy's pedigree and it notes colors....it looks like his sire was a Black and tan from a sable sire and a black and tan dam that had a black sire (so we know the gene was there as the your dog's sire was black and tan and had to carry black...now the dam was sable with a black dam so we know for certian that the dam carried black...so the available color genes to your boy were sable, black and black and tan...but two possible chances of the black gene...based on his coloring I would say he is sable carrying black (sorry if this post is all out of wack I was interupted by a phone nutrition consult and now I forget where I was going with this lol)


----------



## meganktar

Does anyone know how while shepherds came about? I know that there is a lot of inbreeding in them, but do they devolp during breeding of other colors or is it a mutated gene in them?


----------



## Chris Wild

Do you mean White GSDs?

White is a simple recessive masking gene. A White GSD carries genes for normal coat colors, but a separate gene on a separate locus can mask the normal coat color and make the entire dog white.

It is NOT true that thre is "a lot of inbreeding" in them, nor is it a mutation. 

White bred to white will always produce only white pups, as both parents will contribute the white recessive gene to the puppies. White puppies can show up in litters from colored dogs, if both parents carry the recessive white masking gene and two recessives (one from each parent) combine in a particular pup.


----------



## RubyTuesday

An old thread but a new question...

Is the info below accurate?

http://www.4germanshepherds.com/white_german_shepherds.htm



> Quote:_Good" breeders won't let a white breed into their lines. It is not only a Disqualifying fault, *the white gene also DILUTES the colors of the following generations of dogs coming from that line. Breeding a white to a black/tan (or other accepted color) washes out the colors of the offspring. If allowed to continue, in a few generations 'normal' colors would be whipped out.*
> 
> For this reason, the gene pool available to the white German Shepherd is very narrow. Because of this, *they are more prone to genetic disorders. They also can get skin cancer, which normal color shepherds do not get.*
> 
> *The black dog will IMPROVE the pigment on any standard color dog it is bred to,* so they are often used to breed with 'more usual' color German Shepherds._


As a masking gene (& recessive), wouldn't the expression of white be an all or nothing phenomenon (barring the light cream shadings which are sometimes present). IF black is a true recessive, wouldn't it fail to express unless the dog is homozygous for it? Or are they more accurately co-expressed? Given that white dogs have normal dark pigment are they more prone to skin cancers? Are they really more prone to other genetic disorders?

IF the masking & black genes are co-expressed, wouldn't that too be largely an all or nothing phenomenon, ie those dogs heterozygous for each gene would have a fairly predictable color, not color that faded or enriched with subsequent generations? Regardless of the passing of generations, if co-expression is seen, wouldn't it be the same heterozygous state that's inherited/expressed? Wouldn't color fading or enriching generally be expected with additive genes?

Although I think the breeder's info could be wrong, this isn't intended as a criticism of her. She doesn't breed whites & might not be aware of the details associated with its inheritance. I don't breed whites, or any other color, so I could be completely wrong in how I've interpreted the little I've read.


----------



## Ceph

No - it's incorrect. it's not the Extension Locus that dilutes the tan color - it's the Intensity Locus - now if my theory on the Intensity Locus and cream in the coat is right - breeders are _selecting_ for more white in the coat - so by default they are selecting for more dilution if bred to a colored dog.

For the health - hogwash - I imagine that they wouldnt have become recognized overseas if the gene pool was so small. additionally - we're very snarky about our genetics. Most of us are members of the WSGenetics Project - which is our way of looking at diseases - the very same diseases that affect German Shepherds. You can have a look at that here : http://www.wsgenetics.org It may seem like alot - but I imagine that's because we're very good about collecting and displaying the information on our breed. I know Majorie is working on one for the GSD - which is great too









And the thing about breeding to black is an old wives tale that alot of people subscribe to. It's possible that _maybe_ carrying the recessive allele for black will make the black blacker, but it wont change the red in the coat - that would show some incomplete dominance - but I've never seen anything to that affect. As far as I know the solid black coat is simply the expression of no patterm at the agouti locus.

As a masking gene the white only affects the fur - not the skin. I've posted pictures of my own dogs for you where you can see there pigment (leather) is very dark - Ruby came out with better pigment than a couple of colored litters I've seen. Additionally - it is all or nothing - you're either homozugous or not - if you're not the dog might carry for it.

The black also - though like I said there is some possibility that there might be some incomplete dominance...though as I said - I've never seen any research to that.

White Shepherds are not any more prone to cancer because their skin isnt any different than that of a colored dog. The white doesnt make them anymore prone to *anything* that a colored German Shepherd is not just as prone to.

The information is incorrect - and displays the same bias that is the reason I am perfectly happy seperating from the GSD as they have done in Europe. It's an old wives tale with no basis or research behind it to support it.

Additionally - if you are interested in the mode of inheritance of the white coat in the GSD - the link I provided before to Sheila Schmutz - she has published something in the Journal of Heredity in that regard.

One last note - the cause of white in Shepherds is exactly what causes yellow in labs - that's just the extreme level of cream there.

~Cate


----------



## DianaM

I think there is a little merit to breeding white dogs potentially diluting the lines, not because the dog is white but because we have no idea what the color of the dog is UNDER the white. If you're breeding a deeply pigmented and richly colored dog that is white from the masking gene and consistently do this, then no, there will be no paling of color. However, if the dogs are weakly colored underneath the masking gene, well there you go. It's not directly the white, only indirectly and only because we don't see what's really going on. Also, I think the author may be influenced by what is seen in most litters that breed a colored to a white dog- black and silvers, mostly tan with little black, just a bunch of pet breedings. I wonder if the author looked into the good BBS breedings. Just my two cents, I could be wrong, though.

Everything else said sounds off base to me. Also, what about the whites with poor pigment? There are whites with pale noses and skin, do those have health issues?


----------



## Ceph

DianaM - I do agree on that side - I really think that the intensity locus or something like it is what causes the cream - and as many breeders select against the cream coats, more dogs are going to have the dominant dilution at the I Locus.

Not that I have seen - snow nose is something that affects alot of the extension locus dogs - including the lab - and I havent seen any negative associations with it - I just dont like it 

As far as not fully black leather - as far as I can tell it's generally uncommon. I believe Albinism is not something the GSD breed carries for that I know of - just as they dont carry for blue eyes. The dogs will have pigmented skin - unlike other non-extension white dogs, which I *believe* would mean no more health issues than the deeply pigmented white or colored shepherd.

~Cate


----------



## darylehret

About the health: Sometimes traits that appear to be unrelated (i.e., color and behavior) are in fact linked. Overselection for a single trait can possibly result in some unknown detrimental trait that is closely positioned to seemingly irrelevant loci in a section of dna.

Some old wives tales may have some substance to their claims, meaning "often associated" from generations of practice, and perhaps limited to the experience of particular bloodlines. But due to the complex interactions between many different genes, perhaps not always found true, or perhaps not affecting the entire litter. I believe in Australian Shepherds, breeding merle to merle color is lethal to 25% of the offspring?

I doubt there is any conclusive evidence against the health in white shepherds (or it would not even be disputed), but since they are not technically my chosen breed, I've not devoted much interest in them. As many emails as I get about them though, I'm going to start refering them to Cate ;-)


----------



## Ceph

lol - bah - what can I say - I learn out of self preservation. As I said - we keep a very tight hold on what we do in terms of genetics through our genetics project. Now keep in mind - not all white breeders subscribe - but most of the WS breeders do here in the states. In Europe - at least with the swiss - they are anal retentive about testing (which is good). In order to be considered for breeding all the animals have to be health tested at the universities in Bern or Zurich.

As for conclusive evidence - D.P. Sponenburg mentions in the Genetics of the Dog that there have been studies _looking_ for health issues related to the coat, and none have been found 

The other good refrences are Sheila Schmutz and the http://www.wsgenetics.org for people trying to find out more about whites. The genetics project has a very large database for everything that has been submitted, both bad and good and a brochure for affected-by statistics.

~Cate


----------



## darylehret

Cate, you mentioned cream coat, and thought you'd like to read this - The Genetics of Cream Coat Color in Dogs (May 7, 2007)


----------



## Ceph

Daryl - have I asked you to marry me yet? I think you're the only guy I know who goes through the J.Hered 

I have seen that...the article is printed in my dog genetics binder which also has a bunch of other color, health, temperment and even historical articles from the JAS, J.Hered and Mammalian Genome









Gotta love this stuff









~Cate


----------



## ituneyou

Ok is there anyone who can explain this to me, My Lizzie a white female gsd was bred for about 4 yrs with nothing but white gsd studs and produced nothing but white pups, her last 2 litters she was bred with my Max which he's longcoat black and tan and didnt have any white pups at all from both litters, I was told by someone that knows about breeding a little more than i do that the reason she didnt produce any white pups is that Max has strong dominant genes is this true or a bunch of hogwash?
Now, if she was bred again with a white stud would she produce all white pups or mixed colors?
Anyone want to take a stab at this because I'm not really an expert on the genetic part of gsds.

steve


----------



## RubyTuesday

I believe the white 'masking' gene is recessive, ie it must be contributed by both parents to be expressed. It's a 'masking gene' b/c color is still inherited, it's simply not expressed. 

White bred to white should produce all white pups. Bred with other colors, it depends on whether the other parent carries the white gene. IF the other parent doesn't carry the gene, the white's pups will all be colored & will carry the white gene. IF the other parent has the gene, statistically 1/2 the pups will be white & 1/2 will be colored but carrying the white gene.

The pups from the black & tan male which are all colored, should all carry 1 copy of the white masking gene, & can contribute it to any offspring they might have. They're essentially carriers for the trait. Depending on what they're bred to their offspring could be white, colored but carrying the white gene, or colored & not carrying the white gene. For those white to colored breedings that yield colored pups, the color can be inherited from either parent. 

Although there were no white pups in the litter it's still possible the black & tan male carries the white gene. The likelihood of this is determined by looking at how many pups he's sired without having any whites. As the # increases it's more likely that he doesn't carry the gene. IF he carried it you'd statistically expect 1/2 of his offspring to be white when bred to a white female. Of course, this is a statistical probability, not an absolute & will tend to be more predictive with increasing #s. (Think of flipping heads 6, 7 times in a row. It happens, but with many flips generally balances out by flipping tails multiple times as well)


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: hairygsdOk is there anyone who can explain this to me, My Lizzie a white female gsd was bred for about 4 yrs with nothing but white gsd studs and produced nothing but white pups, her last 2 litters she was bred with my Max which he's longcoat black and tan and didnt have any white pups at all from both litters, I was told by someone that knows about breeding a little more than i do that the reason she didnt produce any white pups is that Max has strong dominant genes is this true or a bunch of hogwash?
> Now, if she was bred again with a white stud would she produce all white pups or mixed colors?
> Anyone want to take a stab at this because I'm not really an expert on the genetic part of gsds.
> 
> steve


She didn't produce any whites with Max because he doesn't carry the gene for white.

White bred to white will produce only white. It cannot produce any other color.

White bred to a regular color, MAY produce some whites if the regular colored dog carries a gene for white. If the regular colored dog does not carry the gene for white, none of the pups will be white.


----------



## ituneyou

Thank you Chris, now it all makes sense to me.


----------



## Deejays_Owner

Hey Steve 

Did you get any coats from the litter (Lizzie + Max)?


----------



## ituneyou

Out of the 7 pups i got one coat and he was on the lighter side, the rest had maxs colors with lizzies short coat.


----------



## krisgreer

Who's color chart????? I seen the EXACT same one @ http://www.ddrlegends.com/ it seems to me u took most of "your" info from them......


----------



## onyx'girl

Did you see that Daryl Ehret was given credit on the ddr site for it? This thread began in '06...over 2 yrs ago!


----------



## darylehret

There are other websites that don't credit me at all, and neither did the latest issue of Schutzhund USA. It's given me a lot to think about, in terms of what and what not to share with the public with other useful information I have. I was always of the mindset that, good knowledge will make better breeders, and a better breed. Trouble is, there are too many people who don't deserve the breed, either.


----------



## Doc

You have done an excellent job and should be given credit for your work. Plagiarism is against the law but most people cheat and use others information without giving credit.

I can not blame you for being upset. Years ago information was shared by breeders because we love the breed and wanted to helped each other. Today, greed has displaced trust and we are worse off because of it.


----------



## Liesje

I think a lot of people are just ignorant too, they don't stop to think that it is actually plagarism, they just think "oh well I saw it on these three sites so it must be OK to put on my site." I have a few articles on my site that other people wrote but I asked permission, and I post the name of the author and a link to their own site.


----------



## Julie'somom

Very interesting site. Made my head spin.

julies'omom


----------



## cliffson1

Amen Doc and Darryl, both of you are two of my favorite people because of the information you possess. Keep sharing it with others as people like me appreciate it...Cliff


----------



## riorider

What exactly is a black sable? I thought just the fact that they were sable indicated the black part. Auri is what I thought was a red sable. I called her that because her under color is a very rich red. But.... she has black toes and a solid black belly so does that make her a black sable?


----------



## onyx'girl

this thread has some nice black sables and dark sables pictured along w/ discussion on the differences.


----------



## riorider

Thanks. Auri is a black sable.


----------



## cliffson1

Darryl, 
I have a litter out of Picasso Traho,sable, and Libra Venusina Sopka, sable, and one of the girl puppies is a bi-color. Explain for me...Thanks, Cliff


----------



## Catu

I'm not Daryl but my guess is that both dogs are heterozygous for Sable and bi-color, since sable is dominant, they both look sable. From the litter there must be some homozygous sable that look sable, some heterozygous sable/bi-color and some pups that are homozygous for bi-color and look bi-color. 

ETA: One of the parents could be heterozygous for sable and black too. In that case the pup carries the bi-color gene of one parent and the black gen of the other, but bi-color being dominant over black, it expresses as a bi-color pup.


----------



## cliffson1

Lican, thanks for the info...another one for you or anybody else. Getting dog today that one parent is sable(father), his parents are sable and Bl and Tn, and the other parent is Black. This puppy is black and tan...does this make sense from sable and black parents.
Thanks, Cliff


----------



## onyx'girl

Wildhaus H litter has black dam, sable sire
...pups are gorgeous sables and b&t's(almost to the point of bi-color in look).


----------



## Chris Wild

cliffson1 said:


> Lican, thanks for the info...another one for you or anybody else. Getting dog today that one parent is sable(father), his parents are sable and Bl and Tn, and the other parent is Black. This puppy is black and tan...does this make sense from sable and black parents.
> Thanks, Cliff


Yup. Sable sire with 1 sable, 1 B/T parent inherited sable from 1 and B/T from the other. Sable being dominant he expresses that, but carries B/T as his recessive. Black dam can only carry genes for black, so she will give a gene for black to every pup.

Pup in question inherited black from dam, as did all of them, then could have inherited sable or B/T from sire, and apparently in his case got the B/T.

Like Jane mentioned, same color genetics as our last litter. Sable sire with B/T recessive bred to black dam... all sable or B/T pups.


----------



## cliffson1

Thanks Chris!!!


----------



## mharrisonjr26

So a black dog will improve what when it comes to pigment or color. Does a black gsd automatically have good pigment or what.


----------



## lhczth

No, blacks do not automatically have good pigment. What they do when crossed with other colors is usually produce more extended blankets in b/t and most of the time darker black ticking in sables.


----------



## mhardy73

Great chart but I'm a dunce at reading it apparently. I figure someone with more experience might be able to help me out. I have a solid white female and a solid black male. If these two mate what coat colors can I expect in the litter? I ask because I thought the female was fixed when I got her but apparently she's not. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Shaolin

mhardy73 said:


> Great chart but I'm a dunce at reading it apparently. I figure someone with more experience might be able to help me out. I have a solid white female and a solid black male. If these two mate what coat colors can I expect in the litter? I ask because I thought the female was fixed when I got her but apparently she's not.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 It depends on what your White is masking and if the Black has the 'White Gene'. You will not create any Whites if the Black doesn't have the gene. It also depends on what the White color is masking. My White comes from a pretty long line of whites, but the first color dog is a Black and Tan, so it could be reasonably be expected that if he were to breed to a non-white with no gene, then he would help produce Black and Tan puppies.

I am not advocating breeding the two together at all. Breeding two untitled, untested, un-anything dog does nothing for the GSD as a whole. If you are truly considering breeding, please read the "Should I become a breeder?" sticky in the Breeding Forums. Stud and Bitch dogs should have something behind them: Working titles, conformation titles, clear hips and elbows, DM tested, the works. Spay your female and enjoy your GSDs for what they are.


----------



## mhardy73

Shaolin said:


> It depends on what your White is masking and if the Black has the 'White Gene'. You will not create any Whites if the Black doesn't have the gene. It also depends on what the White color is masking. My White comes from a pretty long line of whites, but the first color dog is a Black and Tan, so it could be reasonably be expected that if he were to breed to a non-white with no gene, then he would help produce Black and Tan puppies.
> 
> I am not advocating breeding the two together at all. Breeding two untitled, untested, un-anything dog does nothing for the GSD as a whole. If you are truly considering breeding, please read the "Should I become a breeder?" sticky in the Breeding Forums. Stud and Bitch dogs should have something behind them: Working titles, conformation titles, clear hips and elbows, DM tested, the works. Spay your female and enjoy your GSDs for what they are.



Thank you for the help. The breeding was unintentional. I was told that the female was fixed when I purchased her but come to find out she wasn't. I'm not trying to get into the breeding business by no means. All of the pups will be given to friends and family as pets only, save one that I promised my son could have as his first dog. Needless to say, after they are born she will be making a trip to the vet. I was just curious as to what might come out so I can start looking for homes for the pups. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sadie_M

Okay so I get that the first letters are what color your dog is (ex. This dog is sable so it is aw+__) but how exactly do you figure out the next carrying part? Especially when the dogs parents were not the same as eachother and then I'm assuming grandparents colors come in to play also?


----------



## martemchik

Sadie_M said:


> Okay so I get that the first letters are what color your dog is (ex. This dog is sable so it is aw+__) but how exactly do you figure out the next carrying part? Especially when the dogs parents were not the same as eachother and then I'm assuming grandparents colors come in to play also?


Either test for it genetically or you can make an educated guess at what is more than likely coming through. If you've bred the dog, you can see what kind of puppies you have and make a guess based on that as well. The recessive is harder to pin point, especially with a sable dog (the other ones have less choices and can be easier to figure out).


----------



## gsdsar

Can two non sable parents make a sable puppy? I looked at the pinned chart, but I can't decider it.


----------



## GypsyGhost

gsdsar said:


> Can two non sable parents make a sable puppy? I looked at the pinned chart, but I can't decider it.


No. Sable is dominant, so at least one parent must be sable to produce sable puppies.


----------

