# Workinglines, semi-wimpy owners?



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Well, I'm confused. I think maybe I need to open my mind.









I had found a send-away trainer to help with Grimm's longstanding habit of barking/lunging at other dogs onlead. (not true aggression, but the urge to start a doggy party) That proves that I am not the boss on walks.

Grimm is 18 months old, Czech, and I have weak hands and am slightly unstable walking.

The send-away training has worked with Grimm being able to be calm on lead when walking by another dog, or even holding a downstay by another dog.... for the trainer, and for now, for me, too.









The problem is that Grimm (in his fursaver low on his neck) still doesn't walk well and attentively for me on lead. My corrections barely register. This means that in a few weeks, the old habit can return-- with Grimm eventually realizing I am not boss enough to correct well enough to stop him from looking too long at another dog while on walks, maybe locking on visually, maybe trying the barking/lunging again. 

So today, the trainer had me whack Grimm very hard on the muzzle-- to try to get Grimm to respect me. (he uses an ear-grab technique too.. scares me, I don't want Grimm's ears to be damaged)







The trainer still felt my swaps at Grimm's muzzle were not effective enough to have Grimm respect me walking-- he did still pull some.







Each pull is a success in Grimm's mind, making me less and less in control. 

The next step, the trainer says, is to switch the fursaver for a normal choke chain..... and to use the fursaver as a chain to throw at Grimm's body, hard, to get him to respect me. I don't like this. It is clear, though, that my corrections _do_ need to register for him... and the trainer said this throw-chain technique would only need to be done 3 times, 5 times maximum.

Do I need to get over my clicker-training mindset, just accept these methods and do this? So that Grimm and I _can_ be safe together on a walk? A year of weak corrections on a prong, then halti and clickertraining did not accomplish what this trainer did re being calm and non-reactive on-lead with other dogs. For the training to transfer, I need to be the boss on our walks. Maybe being firm (using methods I feel are too harsh) in the short term will make an impression and get the message across. (Grimm is not the kind of dog who will always in future test.. he has no huge dominance agenda-- he responds well to a quick, strong correction)

Anyone got great input, or even stories about wimpy grandmas who overcame emotional softness and physical limits to walk well with a strongminded workinglines dog? Grimm, embarrassing to say, is not _that_ strong-minded.. it is that he just hasn't gotten any message from me yet that I rule our walks. Getting that message now will prevent the old game of reacting to dogs on-leash from re-cropping up again.

By the way, I can't find a new trainer after this. I'm on welfare, and the money for this training was very kindly donated by a wonderful, kindhearted angel.







I would never be able to afford a trainer myself again.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've followed several of your threads regarding Grimm. What I think, and I could be way off, is that in order for these methods to work, YOU need to be 100% committed to them. I do not think using physical corrections is effective or efficient unless they are given appropriately and timed well. I'm good with timing (or so my trainers have told me), but I'm just not so good at actually doling out the correction, so I rarely use these methods b/c I'm just not fully committed. For me, it just doesn't *feel* right, and not just because it's a physical correction/punishment, but I've found other methods that come more naturally to me. From your posts it sounds like you aren't totally comfortable using the strong physical corrections. I don't know if that's something you can just "get over" and do. For me, it's not. If it doesn't feel right/natural, it doesn't matter how many times I try, I just end up confusing myself and the dog.

Now I do use physical corrections, but not for teaching focus and walking. I want the dog to focus on me and stay with me because they like to be with me, not because I physically forced them into doing it and they do it to avoid further punishment. The level of physical correction should be fair. To me, hitting a young dog hard with a chain, a dog that simply doesn't quite understand the concept of focusing, is not a fair correction. I try to think of these things in terms of myself and what I am lacking to enforce the dog's behavior. My younger dog Coke (who is also quite a bit larger than my GSD) lacks focus and self control on walks but I don't punish him for it b/c it's really a reflection on my inconsistency working with him (practicing focus on his walks maybe 1-2 times a week instead of every walk) and me not providing him a better, more exciting alternative than the dog in the yard or the squirrel in the tree. With Kenya, this came much easier for me. I've been able to find little things like certain treats, games, praises that she loves and give her a reason to focus on me and stick with me.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

honestly - if you aren't strong enough to administer effective corrections to grimm on the prong, will you be strong enough to throw him on a choke chain? 
(i also think choke chains are high risk re: injury)

i had trainers tell me to do the same thing with luc (!!!!) to establish myself as leader, and i fired them. i know physically though i'm stronger than luc and can control him physically when i choose.

i don't know all the ins and outs of your situation - but it seems to me like grimm is quite attached to you, and that throwing him like that - when i don't think there is malicious intent (if dogs can even form that) may really impact your bond and relationship. 

you do NILIF, right? can you use that to work on placing yourself as leader? one exercise the trainer who came in to help me w/teagan gave me as that i took a treat, and i would move it from hand to hand, do whatever i wanted with it, put the treat on the ground, etc - and teagan could not take it, b/c it was my treat. it helps to reinforce pack rank, i think is the point - at the end of the exercise, the dog can get the treat, but only when you've specifically allowed them to get it. 

edit: sorry, i'm not awake yet....i thought they were telling you to throw grimm while on the choke chain (what i was told to do w/luc). i agree w/liesje about commiting to a method of correction.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Liesje, that's kinda how I had been working with Grimm this whole past year. We have a wonderful relationship based on play-training, clicker-training, etc.. but on this issue(remaining in heel when I say so) he knows he can override me. He is the type to take a good hard correction or two, but after to accept and not try to keep pushing the limits.

But yes, I think I need to be committed to this. Grimm does just need to get the message (not to necessarily focus, but to follow a command once given, including heel).

While I can't say I am 100% comfortable with the methods, I can say that I do not want to have to give Grimm away to another owner because I wasn't willing to accept that he may need to more firmly know that there are consequences for choosing to ignore my heel command when he would prefer to sniff a bush, or lock eyes with another dog.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I think you're answering your own questions, Patti. 

1. This trainer has proven that he is so far successful in getting the results you want from Grimm. 

2. You suspect that your corrections aren't registering, and that Grimm doesn't exhibit a healthy level of respect for you. (You are his friend, not his leader.) 

3. You acknowledge that harder corrections are also what you think Grimm needs...and that these won't hurt him or need to be long-term. 

...IMO, I think you need to listen to the advice of the person who is right there with you, and knows more than any of us about what Grimm needs. 

Play through the objections in your mind. You say "methods that are too harsh." Too harsh for what? What is your ultimate fear here? That you will physically hurt Grimm? That you will make him not love you anymore? That you will feel like you have failed in the postitive only training approach you wanted to work? Only you can answer these questions. 

Then play though in your mind a scenario where you do not follow the trainer's advice. What are your other choices? What do you think will happen? Are you okay with that? 

Here's my pollyannaish outlook: all of us have to play the cards we are dealt in life, and be okay with it. Grimm included. Your physical abilities limit the choices that you have in this situation. So instead of wishing it were different, embrace the choices that you do have wholeheartedly and make it work. You already know that half the battle in training a dog is mental. If you approach Grimm with uncertainty in this he will not take it any more seriously than he feels you are.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Tracy, you're right. I don't want to damage his love for me.. that is my problem. Maybe you are also right re the pride issue. I have spent a year on positive methods. Grimm clearly is not like the dogs that respond to "100% positive-only." 

While positive methods works great for everything else with Grimm, Grimm's "Yeah, nice treats/ball/praise, but I wanna do THIS, instead.." on our walks has gotten me in the hospital with a concussion, dragged repeatedly into traffic. I do strong NILIF at home.. but on walks, I haven't gotten a strong enough message across.

For me to avoid the consequences of rehoming my "baby," I need to stop treating him like one. Yes, later, our usual affection and training games-- but I need to first clear up who controls the walk, even if I need to make a very strong impression. I intend to send my intention and power down the lead, show it with my stride, let Grimm know he has a strong leader on the walk. If I need to throw a fursaver at him hard to make my point a few times, it will be a point well made. I hope I can be successful!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What about an electric collar? I have no experience with them, but it seems they would be easier to use given your physical limitations and often promote better timing of corrections.

I think the difference between myself and your trainer would be in how we understand the dog's motivations. I'm not one to quickly accept that a dog behaves the way it does b/c it's trying to push me around/dominate me/outsmart me, etc. In my experience (not as much with GSDs, but untrained and unmannered dogs in general at the shelter), most dogs do what they do because they don't know anything else or have no reason to do the alternative that we want. Considering that Grimm is not aggressive and given his age, I would suspect that he pulls you around simply because he wants to go where he wants to go. I would focus on training him that the alternative is better and more fun. Getting too hung up on whether or not the dog is dominant or whether or not the dog is intentionally being disrespectful has just led me around in circles, when I've experienced this with other dogs that act as you describe Grimm.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have heard a few people say e-collars are banned in Germany.
Not sure if that is true as I don't live there


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Just my opinion here, but I don't believe you have to establish yourself as the leader or make the dog respect you by punishing him. Dogs respect fair and calm leaders--not ones that inflict physical harm. Having a strong working bond built from many training sessions, play sessions, and a healthy homelife will go a lot farther than chain-jerks and compulsion, imho.

Throwing a chain at Grimm sounds to me like really old-school methodology. My trainer and I have talked about this type of training after classes and what it tends to do is make dogs hand-shy or otherwise afraid of thing coming in their direction. Many dogs that have been corrected by whacks to the body become hand shy and might start going on the offensive. "Hey, that hand whacked me before. . .so I'm going to get it before it gets me!" Grimmi is such a friendly guy, I'd hate to hear he's become handshy.









I know you're limited with what you can do, Patti. And I _know_ that it's tougher when Grimm's actions have caused some disastrous results. But I agree with both jarn and Liesje. You need to commit 100% to what you want him to do and make him do it. Not by compulsion (imho) but by taking the time to train him. By knowing what exactly you want him to do and praising him lavishly when you get the results.

I know Grimm can overpower you, but is there anyway you and Ulrich could go on walks with Grimm together? Have him hold onto Grimm as well so that he can't pull you over. If Grimm sees another dog and gets excited, turn around and walk in the other direction. Once Grimm's calm again, you can continue in the direction you were heading. If he gets excited again, you turn around. The idea is, he only gets to continue on his path if he's calm and collected. If he starts pitching a fit, he ends up farther away from the thing he really wants to see.

I know a lot of this is just Grimm being a pup and pressing the limits. I know you've practiced a lot of self-control exercises with him and that he IS capable of restraining himself. He just needs to mature a bit.

I really wish I were closer by and could be of more assistance. I know he really needed the send-away training and that it's important for him to understand his need for behavior due to your limits. But it's up to you whether or not you want to use corporal punishment on your boy. The trainer can suggest it but it's up to you to use it. If you're not comfortable with it, then don't do it.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

E-collars are banned here in Germany. A year of positive motivational food/toy luring has worked well for everything *but* walking. I think especially strong-minded Border Patrol lines can be warm, snuggly, sweet dogs-- who do need a very clear leader. They do need consequences beyond being offered a possibly sometimes nicer choice such as toy, food, or game. On walks he needs to accept a leader other than himself. I really hope I can be effective, have good timing, and have made my point firmly enough and clearly.

Thank you Chuck. Pray I get the message across effectively and can do things right!


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Patti Please listen to what your trainer has said he does know what Grimm needs and don't worry Grimm will love you no matter what you have to do. And Luca's kind of hit it right on the money


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Patti,

I have about one second here but I cannot imagine you smacking Grimmi or jerking him around even if you were the strongest person in the world! My first dog was HUGE (a very lean 90 pounds) and very strong willed. I off leash trained her and could walk her anywhere. Although I did use that stupid alpha roll a few times (this was 23 years ago and I didn't know any better) I never hit her. In fact, physical corrections would typically make her more stubborn...or what I thought as stubborn. Really she was probably wondering what the heck was wrong with me! Ultimately I think we did a sort of mind meld which is what I do with all of my animals to train them. 

As long as you offer Grimm strong leadership he will follow your lead! So I think you need to make a psychological adjustment. And personally, although I know it will be difficult, I would flat out refuse to hit Grimm. You know that is not good for him or your relationship. You don't think you're strong enough to handle Grimm and he knows that. If you change your thinking he WILL follow your lead. If you continue with the physical corrections (way too harsh!!!!) then you will continue to need to INCREASE those to get him to listen because they make no sense whatsoever. It is coercion and that's not good leadership. 

Sorry if this is terse but I'm on the run and had to reply. I really am trying to offer you support.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeWhat about an electric collar?


Lies beat me to it. Here is my opinion...

I don't like ear pulling, hitting or throwing objects. In fact, I HATE and am completely opposed to all of those. An e-collar is much more effective and can be much clearer to the dog. I have the same type of issue with my male Diesel. He is a very hard dog and in order to get an effective prong correction on him I need to wind up and use my whole body, especially when he's in drive and even then it may not be effective. To put this in perspective I am a 300lb man - by no means a petite flower. After getting him used to wearing the e-collar without using it for a few weeks I started to use it along with a prong during healing. I introduced the electric stimulation at the same time as giving a light prong correction. I did that for a few weeks and the end result is that to him electric and prong stimulation are the same. I can adjust the level of correction easily now without having to wind up which results in poor timing. Just a thought.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Patti-I seem to remember he responds really well to your voice?

I know that even my Chow mixes have learned that my voice is the second window to my soul, and that soul may reveal that they are one step from going home to their maker if they continue a behavior (even though of course that isn't true-they just think it). I use it when they are thinking about starting nonsense with each other or are deciding things without me (hey guys-I'm right over here-I can see you). 

Now of course no one wants to be the lady with the demon voice (except maybe that girl on Top Chef with the eyebrow ring) and I try not to over use it (and sometimes do it right in the ear of the offender if we are out-like moms do with kids at the store) but that is just another thing I remember that seemed to work for him. 

It's a negative but doesn't involve tossing anything at him, and sounds like it works just as effectively?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Oh yeah, I'm with Jean. I DO use my voice and let me tell you, all I need is a slight change of tone and everyone, even almost deaf Chama rush to their places. That is very effective.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Ruth I have a boy here at my kennel that is Grimms older brother and if Grimm is anything like our Jero with the strong mind set than I can understand the problem she is having with him and yes to correct him maybe the thing to do, but not let it get to the point of abuse.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

E-collar is illegal here, John. I think since 2006.

Ruth, after hospitalization and concussions, dragging me on my back for a block, Grimm *knows* he is stronger. He also knows that I want him to heel until told otherwise... no learning here, just a choice to ignore boundaries that are not, in his mind, really enforced.

I could never use these methods for everyday interactions with a dog I love. But in the very short term to provide consequences for ignoring my heel command to instead barge, pull, buffalo his way-- I hope I can do this effectively. Grimm will not need me to do this much, he has no huge dominance agenda. _Okay, it is bigger than most pet GSDs from pet lines. _But in general, once he is firmly shown boundaries, he does not test very often.

Jean and Ruth, I will see what using my voice can do tomorrow at training. I hope to start out with just the regular choke-chain on Grimm and my killer voice. But if we end up doing the chain-throw, I need to be firm in my mind that I need to just do this a few times-- so that Grimm can remain living with me.


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm not the greatest trainer but I have had the opportuntity to hang aroung with some that are. What I see with the german shepherd trainers I know is that they learn to read the dog and that what each needs is very individual. I personally use a clicker to teach new behaviors but with large dogs my first priority is for safety- for my children, and for the dog itself. I have heard Lies mention in a past post that she uses a prong for them to self correct if they pull- so do I with some big dogs. (I'm not saying you should its just an example of how I changed my beliefs according to what the dog needs) A few years ago I was taking my dads dog to visit him at his retirement home and he pulled out of his collar and was hit by a truck right in front of my kids. I will forever blame myself for not having complete control over the dog. To me that trumps my beleifs in positive training. You need to try what this trainer is telling you with 100% confidence and follow through before you jump to trying a new method. Yes your relationship is important but so is his life and you can't keep him safe if you can't control him on a leash. Its kinda like how I feel when I have to ground one of my kids.... yes they will be mad at me and it will affect our relationship but being a parent is about keeping them safe even if for a short time they "hate" me for it!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am with John, I don't care for the ear pull, the chain throw or even a head bang. 

If Grimm is solid in temperament a good solid collar correction or even a milder collar correction with a really solid voice correction might get his attention.

I have a nice strong female that will blow anyone off that she feels isn't strong. You never ask this dog for any thing you demand or tell, unless you are me, she only really respects me. I can give her a certain look or body posture, never say a word and she sits. She is not a cuddly female, but that is ok. She enjoys some pets, but doesn't like anyone hugging her.

Leadership is a lot about attitude. Do you want Grimm to be able to help you or do you want him dragging you down the street. If you want Grimm to learn to help you then you have to learn how to be a firm leader. You and Grimm need to learn how to get along together. Patti, he isn't a baby, he is a nice strong working dog that needs a leader and needs boundries. My guess is that he can handle a strong correction as long as it is fair. Now if you have to use a prong collar then use it.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

someone mentioned you using a prong/pinch....
but I don't see where you said you were using a pinch, but a fursaver...
and the trainer is recommending a regular choke.

If you aren't using a pinch collar, then try one. Two lunging self corrections and your problem will be gone.

It may look like a torture device, but it's actually safer than either a fursaver or regular choke. Fit it high on the neck, above his regular flat collar.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I think because the trainer now has Grimm calm around other dogs-- calmly strolling by on the street, calmly maintaining a downstay near them, etc-- he possibly does not want to use a prong on a reactive dog, and worse, with a handler who's weak hands would make prong corrections annoying and ramp up any tension.

Jamie and Val, I totally see where you are coming from. A year of positive methods, 6 months of FeistyFido/clicker/halti type training has only landed my skull with a few cracks. Ulrich can't walk Grimm for me. Positive training works for teaching new stuff, for play-training, etc but with Grimm, he needs consequences to care that heel meals heel.

I am hoping that a regular choke chain, high on the neck, instead of a fursaver very low on the neck, will make enough difference. But, I cannot pick and choose what Grimm respects and responds to, I can only find what he respects. I have no intention of damaging a lifetime of trust, and a strong-willed dog paired with a disabled handler needs to find whatever the dog respects at the lowest, most effective level and go with it.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfE-collar is illegal here, John. I think since 2006.


They make covers for them, it's what Bernhard Flinks uses. Many SchH clubs over there are using electric. If I were you I'd get one and use a cover. 

A choke chain high on the neck is going to need much more physical effort than even a prong much less an e-collar.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Patti,

You may remember me. I am the 100% wimpy proud owner of a shy GSD who leads a happy but very quiet life. I work in Manhattan. The other morning when I was entering Starbucks the lady in front of me put her dog (a GSD mix) in a down-stay and went in to get in line to order. The dog downed on a sidewalk in Columbus Circle, a corner of Central Park, at 9:00 AM on a beautiful day. I told the owner I couldn't do that in a thousand years, she said they had been doing it for a thousand years. It was the right combination of owner nature, training, dog temperament, and life style-I believe.

I am completely sure that you, not the trainer, know Grimm best. You have to have a conversation with yourself (and maybe Ulrich) about how you think Grimm will be changed by harsh physical corrections. That is what you want to do, change him. Of course, it's changing his behavior-but that is changing him.

Please, please forgive my virtual effrontery. Is it possible that Grimm is not the right dog to live in a busy city, with constant distractions, with an owner with weak wrists? I can hardly believe that I asked this, but it is a logical question.

Thanks for your patience,
Mary Jane


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> But, I cannot pick and choose what Grimm respects and responds to, I can only find what he respects.


I think this is where I take issue, not with the tools being discuss, but the respect thing. If he always gets to chose and you have to go along with it, how is that respect? I would pick a method that is most comfortable for you and go with that, whether it be a halter, prong, choke, e-collar, etc. Grimm needs to learn to respect and trust YOU, not the tool at hand.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

just a thought re: the prong, and nagging corrections possibly amping up his aggression - i only have experience w/this w/teagan, but the level of correction on the prong has never caused her to become more aggressive - it is the *timing* that is important - if i come in too late, the prong correction can escalate her aggression. 

anyways, just a thought, that i find w/prongs, timing is everything. but definitely find a tool that works for you, and that you're comfortable with.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti, please don't take this the wrong way because it is only typed with the kindness wishes for you and Grimmy-butt. Get a new mindset, drop the wimpy thought process, you are in charge, NO QUESTIONS asked. Stop asking Grimm to do things and "TELL" him to do things. You mindset goes right down the leash. So instead of wimpy, you are a slightly challenged person who can and will open a can of whoop a$$. Square up those shoulders, get that chin up and smile the cat that just ate the canary, because you have all the answers to the worlds questions. Body posture helps mindset and dogs are visual. If Grimmy see a slight difference in your posture he will be more attuned to what you want. It can be all about the attitude.

Val


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

How about a water spray in the face (my Riley LOVES it but I know some dogs respond to it). Or lemon spray into the mouth?

The object is to survive another year or so, with age the devils grow out of it.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Lies, the positive training way is what I chose. Grimm would not respect this for leash walking, not at all. Me stubbornly insisting that we stick with this method got me in the hospital, and Grimm at a send-away training. Dogs don't need violence from us to learn behaviors. I've always simply taught an alternate behavior (instead of jumping to greet guests, sit and get rewarded for that). This method has succeded in everything, but not walking when he prefers to barge, drag, lunge, etc. In nature, dogs obviously do use force- abrupt, quick, overwith- to teach when something is not permitted. Nothing about force sits well with me. Nothing about being hospitalized again does, either. Teaching a behavior and defining boundaries are different. A Czech Wolfdog came to the enclosure at the training place. Grimm ran too enthusiasticly to greet him. The Wolfdog nailed Grimm HARD. Grimm and he are now best buddies-- but Grimm politely, softly gallumps up to him now, licking and wagging. They hang out sleeping in the shade together most of the day.

MaryJane, we actually have plans to move out to the country for Grimm's sake... not due to distractions (he does great with them believe it or not, just not other dogs), but as he deserves room to run. So, we will be relocating to a very green area for Grimm's sake.

Val, I swear, I absolutely will be re-reading what you just wrote before I go to training tomorrow morning. Thank you! Posture and 'tude DO count! I can find my inner attitude.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'm going to second Val's suggestion about attitude. If Grimm's anything like Ris, he can read you like a book.









Ris is dog-reactive too, as you know. Though with her it's out of fear, not overexhuberant joy.









Since I really started trying to hammer home the idea of 'no bark/lunging at other dogs' I've noticed how important my attitude is. If I think "Oh no, here it comes again" I don't get great results. But if I think "Oh hey, look, another dog. Let's go this way" Ris is much more laid back. In fact, I just walked her within 3 feet of a yapping Doxie yesterday without even one hair raised on her back.

So yes, act like you're in charge and you can be.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti, I want an update. 

You should read this every morning.....


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI think because the trainer now has Grimm calm around other dogs-- calmly strolling by on the street, calmly maintaining a downstay near them, etc-- he possibly does not want to use a prong on a reactive dog, and worse, with a handler who's weak hands would make prong corrections annoying and ramp up any tension.


Yes, but. The trainer IS talking about using corrections - using a choke collar on him, whacking him on the muzzle, throwing a chain at him. How is using a prong collar to correct him worse than that?









I totally agree with not using aversives on a fear reactive dog. But Grimm is not fear reactive. I've been using a prong on Keefer, which I would NEVER have used on Cassidy. She was fear reactive, he's just being a butthead. I still want to use primarily positive methods, (clicker training and CC & D), to stop Keef from being barky on leash, but because he's so extremely social with other dogs in general, I don't worry too much about using a prong on him, especially since it's mostly to keep him under control. 

If you felt you had better control of Grimm using a prong, I'd really have a talk with your trainer about going back to that.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jamie I am so glad you have progressed to that point with Ris! That is huge!

Val, maybe attitude really is everything. I will try hard tomorrow to really project attitude to Grimm.

I really feel alone in this. Ulrich my DH trusts everything the trainer says, because the dog trainer is very confidant in speaking, is a dog trainer, and has a certificate and a business. More happened today that did not sit well with me, but I will go tomorrow and use my best judgement.

I also intend to project enough attitude that Grimm will respond to that, the normal choke chain, and ideally not need anything else.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfLies, the positive training way is what I chose. Grimm would not respect this for leash walking, not at all. Me stubbornly insisting that we stick with this method got me in the hospital, and Grimm at a send-away training.


I think this is also a limit of being in the city, as you mentioned. When I use positive methods, I build slowly and set the dog up for success. So with a dog like my Coke that is a BIG boy and will also lunge at another dog, until we have worked up to that point I don't walk him within 50 feet of another dog. We walk the same route at the same time every day, so I've gotten good at knowing which dogs might come by where (and which yards have LOOSE dogs, barrier aggressive dogs, etc). If I cannot fully control my dog, the next best thing I can do is manage his environment so I'm setting him up to succeed. For example if we see another dog approaching, we just turn around and then Coke is rewarded. Next time, I let the other dog come a few feet closer before we turn and reward. We've had Coke since Nov. and just last night I took him along to Kenya's rally class and had him calmly lying down in the training yard within 10 feet of 4 other dogs (two of which WERE whining and barking at him).

So, I think you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, so to speak, because it sounds like you don't have as much control over the environment, but at the same time I wouldn't jump to punishing/correcting Grimm for that.


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## JenniferH (Oct 9, 2007)

I dont train dogs. Never have...What I know I learned from my trainer and books and from other dog people. I learn a new thing everyday. The reason for my post today is to say I am reading this thread with interest and the great ideas and thoughts are helping me see some things in my own dog training that I may want to think about. So, thank you. 

I agree though that attitude will help...I also think that if your gut says it isnt right than you should follow your gut.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Liesje, exactly. The moment we step out of our door in this crowded city, burly wheezing Bulldogs, prancing, coiffed, indignant Fifis, and firey terriers bristling with indignation are EVERYWHERE. Sadly, there's no middleground of "find a nice quiet park to build up to real distractions in." Grimm will need to be corrected for blowing off a heel command, but that is not punishing him for where we live. If I can make my point firmly enough, it will not need to be made much again. (Grimm is not an overly dominant dog-- yet much moreso than most pet-type dogs)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

One thing I do want to warn about, and this is not saying anything about anything in particular, but IF the person who does the correction does not have the idea that they are ready to engage the dog should the dog react to them, and could not control the dog if they did, and does not have the attitude to project that idea of I am in charge to the dog, they could be setting them both up for failure. 

Or maybe someone will disagree with me and that is fine. 

As I said, this is how I do verbal corrections with the Chow mixes. IF we were to get physical...well, we just don't do that because of their temperaments. 

I know there have been a couple of dogs I thought no way, no how would I want to work with them. But they weren't Grim like from what I can tell! They had poor temperaments and even worse life experiences. 

I do think you are in a tough spot as Liesje said. Maybe he needs that "one good correction" to get it. I don't know! But if I had to rely on my throwing arm, I would certainly not be using a throw chain-I would either nail him so hard he'd be seeing stars, OR, someone yards away would not be happy with me! 

I am confident in your ability to harness your inner demon voice enough and to fake it til you make it with the postures and attitudes of his leader. 

Read your last post re. his dominance level-he IS a GSD though and you have a golden (or German) opportunity because of that to work with him as you have been doing. He wants to please you, but when these things happen, you become the gnat buzzing about his head and not the person you need to be. 

Ilsa, who is learning to want to please me, if I do not have food, is like







YOU lady! She wants to engage dogs so that they will approach her and then she can go after them (like luring them in). Getting better at it-but my AH noise snaps her out of that glazed over lack of attention that happens when she sees a target. 

Have you tried something like an emotional conflictor-a word or phrase that snaps him out of that zone of inattention? Cheese, treat, ball, etc? That helped a lot with Kramer (not so much Ilsa) and people. 

I feel for you-but I do know you can do it and will do what you feel is best for you and Grimm, that you can accept.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Grimm's got tons of self-confidence--now you have to have confidence in yourself as his leader. The older he gets, the less confidence you seem to have about how to handle him and I'm sure he senses that. So find that spot inside yourself where leadership is located and let him feel that in your voice and in the way you hold your body, etc. 

Having used prongs, chokes, gentle leaders and front clip harnesses, I do think the prong give you the most control with the least work on your part. It's a quick and easy collar for a dog to respect. It's how I trained Chama who is ridiculously strong and could have easily pulled my 70 something mother off of her feet. 

It is very difficult to give a proper correction with a choke. I am not a gentle leader fan because I find the dog tends to learn quickly to set their head against it. Maybe Grimm needs two collars to fit your particular situation.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Patti, check your pms


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I have the feeling a lot of the problem is the fursaver, low on his neck. I think the regular chain choke will be better for him to respond to.









Lori, thanks for the pm!







Ruth, yep.. definitely need to find where I feel leadership is ALL that I am about! Jean, voice.. I need to remember voice! And catching him *before* he strays from the imaginary box he is heeling in. My goal is to just project so much darned leadership and inner strength that Grimm realizes that I am The Queen, and doesn't need anything ultraharsh. Jean, what you said resonates, because several trainers have used that expression for Grimm needing "just one good correction" to make the point. Okay, he may need 3. But he is only being a butthead because *I* need to project AUTHORITY as if I see it all in caps written on my ramrod spine.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And I will say that when Bella's obedience classes started doing Rally exercises-we had to drop out. 

Not because of Bella. 

Because of me. I don't do well with learning dance step type things, left-right messes me up, and I was not being her leader, so she shut down. 

If it had been Kramer, he would have taken over the class.









But that lapse in my ability and my hesitation as the person in charge was what she reacted to. I found that when I said the heck with what the class is doing and started doing what I was good at (LOL) she was right back in the game with me. 

If I could have overcome my whatever you want to call that (!) she would have been fine. I am looking forward to hearing how the voice went. And don't be intimidated by the MeisterBurgerBurgerMeister, either.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi Patti,

I'm chiming in late to the dance







. I also have a working line male who sounds so very much like your Grimmi at the same ages. I have survived and he is now 4 yrs. old and a different dog. I agree with going with trainer (dance with the one that brought you) and getting 110% on board with whatever you decide because these devils will take it to you if they sense a weakness. 

Cain at about 2 yrs old decided that he was going to start the hard eye, laser fixated stare at other male dogs while we were training. This is a dog that I had prided myself on using positive methods with and was not going to use hard corrections. I tried all different positive methods until my training director finally said to me "Does he know that he is suppose to focus on you on command?" yup he did, next question "Is he willfully choosing to refuse command?" yup he was. Her advice was to give one correction that would cement in his mind that that behavior was NEVER to be repeated. Next time up on the field we set him up. We used his favorite target male and when he looked over I gave a prong correction that was fast, firm/harsh with a loud booming PFEUI!!! what are you doing? We set up again and he looked and we repeated. It took 3 times until he would obviously chose to avoid looking at another dog and give eye contact. I will admit when we finished I went to truck cried like a baby, felt like a failure and a bit sick. Would I chose to have to do so again NO, would I do so again if the situation warranted YES. We are now 2 yrs past that time and if he begins to fixate on another dog I give a verbal warning...uhh uhh uhh pfeui...and he will instantly whip around to give eye contact.

Confidence and conviction in what you chose are key, IMO. I'll be thinking of you and Grimmi. Maybe if we all think of you both when it time for your training class we can will you extra resolve and steel in your commands and presence.

All the best to you.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Nora, your Cain is a Von Hena-C dog! From Pam Lake? Wow!! i love her dogs! Thank you for your story. I think that is exactly what is happening here-- I am ashamed to admit. You hit the nail on the head.

Jean, BurgerMeister-MeisterBurger!! I love it ROFL!

The funny thing is, Grimm is a dog who wants to please. A dog who plummets submissively to the floor in the house if I BOOM out a blasting deep and thundering "PFUUUIIIIIII!!!!!" because he ran too enthusiasticly at DH. He obeys really well in most things. It is just this one issue-- heeling when he would prefer to look at (fill in the blank.. be creative LOL) and drift towards (whatever he chooses). Now.. if I can just ramp up my ThunderingPfuuuiiiiiiii!!!! for heelwork, throw my 'tude around, combined with some strong, sudden corrections on a normal choke instead of a fursaver, we will be fine, methinks.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

> Quote:Nora, your Cain is a Von Hena-C dog! From Pam Lake? Wow!! i love her dogs! Thank you for your story. I think that is exactly what is happening here-- I am ashamed to admit. You hit the nail on the head.


Patti, yes Cain is from Pam Lake at von Hena-C. I love her dogs, too. He's truly been all I hoped for and more some days I have felt like







but wouldn't trade this ride for anything







. There are pictures of the boy here when you have time Cain's webshots .

I believe you love Grim so much and will do whatever it takes to work through this problem.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Heading off to bed now here in Germany. Thanks for all the input, everyone.







Hopefully, tomorrow will be a super day for Grimm and I as a team with my strong leadership skills, and hopefully I can clear up things that feel strange about the trainer, too.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Patti - I just wanted to 2nd, 3rd, 4th or what ever it's up to the 'tude and the difference it can make.
Perhaps one of the reasons that Griff is working so well with the trainer is the trainer's 'tude









"ThunderingPfuuuiiiiiiii" I love that!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I am getting ready to go off to training. It is a class... I have never done that before, and yesterday did not go well. The differences today are that we will switch out the fursaver low on Grimm's neck for a normal choke chain... and I intend to project ATTITUDE. Wish us luck, send us prayers-- positive, "Kick-Butt Leader" energy, whatever.







Thanks for the replies!


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

Good Luck! And many positive thoughts and energy! You and Grimm will do great


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Patti, repeat after me "I Am not a whimp.... I am NOT a whimp"









_We are waiting for an update. While patience MAY be a virtue it isn't one that I have. _


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

UPDATE: I was in a group class for the very first time-- with formerly on-lead-doggy-reactive Grimm!!

At first, Grimm was semi-beastly in the heeling. I got in touch with my inner BurgerMeister-MeisterBurger, and in no uncertain terms made it clear what I expected. Attitude helped a LOT. A huge amount, in fact!! However, it was not enough, for a dog such as Grimm. I had to give the strongest corrections I could (that means very weak.. when walking, my hands are pretty useless). I upped the attitude on my part to compensate. That didn't help any. He decided to test my limits. I chucked a folded, soft, well-worn, very light leather lead at his butt as hard as I could (that means very softly-- weak hands). Grimm fell back into line right away, with a surprised look at me. The rest of the walk was near perfect-- he tested one more time, and I again aimed the lead for his wandering butt. I was consistant, firm, had attitude to spare-- I was a fireball of determination and power (for me). Grimm still needed to know corrections can happen from me, and that limits will be enforced. But then, we had a GREAT walk!!! Grimm settled and was much, much more obedient and relaxed.

In the group class-- Grimm was relaxed, even bloblike, around the other dogs. No barking. No lunging. He had never seen these dogs before. We kept practing excersises like: pass the other dog and handler, close, coming from the opposite direction.... go walk Grimm right up to a dog doing a downstay, and downstay Grimm 1 meter away.... and go walk up to a dog and handler team, and lay Grimm alongside another dog, both handlers drop the leads-- and walk away, etc. NO DOG REACTIVITY FROM GRIMM!!!! Totally calm and bloblike. Why bark and lunge? The trainer has tought him it gets him nowhere anyway, and that whatever the command just given is what he has to be doing at the time... until the "Free" command is given after class, and the dogs can socialize offlead in a big colorful group.

WE GOT TO PLAY IN A DOGGY PLAYGROUP!!!! Well, ok, Grimm did.







The two growly, nervous, slightly dog-aggressive dogs, Grimm only briefly greeted, and then ignored. He did SUPER with a tiny red-and-white burly little Jack Russel terrier zipping and bounding.. no chasing or prey-based behavior!! The 6 month old Aussie mix, Grimm greeted and was friendly jostling a bit with, but mainly, Grimm's best bud was a playful, assertive, 16 week old BIIIIG Giant Schnauzer puppy! They gamboled and gallumped, rolled and wrestled. The puppy gave Grimm as good as he got, could really stand up for himself. Grimm played some, he drank some water, he dug a cooling hole, and visited with 7 people who were standing around and chatting. He did not jump on any of them! That includes two kids, about ages 7 and 10!

I learned Grimm will not really range far from me when offlead walking in the countryside.. maybe 12 feet away, 18 feet, max. I couldn't get him to go far out from me enough to test his offlead recall. So, I had him sit, and walked as far away as I needed, then called him. Good response. I now need to ask the trainer which distractions he has been proofed under for this recall.( joggers, other dogs, bikes, etc.)


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Yea Patti... A soft correction that is a totaly surprise to the dog can be VERY effective. Also Good girl Patti for finding some inner mojo. Keep working on it every day, put on your strong person smile, you don't always have to be physically stong, dogs read inner strength also. Happy for you and Grimmy-butt


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Great job Patti I'm glad things are working with Grimm. Pat yourself on the back for a job well done, and you too Grimm


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Patti, that's great! 



> Originally Posted By: BrightelfWE GOT TO PLAY IN A DOGGY PLAYGROUP!!!! Well, ok, Grimm did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you asked these questions in your other thread:



> Quote:How do you know which dogs to let your dog socialize with safely-- offlead? How do you judge, determine, which dogs your dog would be compatible and friendly with?





> Quote:Can he never meet a pushy dog? Or a terrier? Or a female who has had pups too recently? An un-neutered male off lead? Should I keep him away from pushy dogs in general, of all genders?


That's kind of what I was getting in my reply to you. As long as you don't see any blatant warning signs from another dog, which you are savvy enough to recognize, I don't think you need to worry about any particular type of dog (like your examples above), "just because". He obviously has the social skills to choose appropriate playmates, and to calmly avoid and/or diffuse any that he doesn't want to interact with. Of course, you have to be prudent, but a group class setting is perfect, because even though the dogs are socializing off lead it's not just someone on the street with a dog you don't know, it's sort of a semi-controlled environment where you get the opportunity to see him interact with a variety of dogs and people and see how well he does. 

The leash thing is good, we did that in Cassidy's Difficult Dog class. It's not even so much a correction as a tactile reminder that you're there and that he's supposed to be working with and focusing on you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Patty, I've been following the Grimm tales ),,and GOOD FOR YOU!

I also have a von hena c dog,,(I can't say one negative thing about him,,he has been the perfect dog!),,my rescue czech female was a BULL tho..She would test test test,,tho I don't have a disability as you,,she was ALOT of work, She was the type of dog if I said "sit" in a piney voice, she'd look at me as if to say "who the heck are YOU talking to?"

When I told her to do something, it was always with a firm , the "wraith of mom" attitude ) on more than one occasion I had to give some hard corrections , but I found my firm no nonsense "I mean it you do it" attitude was what got thru to her..

I swear that dog would "test" me until she passed away a couple months ago,,she was the best dog I'll ever have tho, I learned alot from her, at times the work was tough, but so worth it in the long run..

Good for you,,keep up the attitude,,he'll shape up in no time))
diane


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Well done, Patti and Grimm!!!!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Hooray for a wonderful class experience! I'm glad everything went so well for you guys. Must be something about today that made the reactive dogs behave pretty well.







Ris was an amazingly good dog in her classes today too. 

Keep up the great work, Patti. And definately keep up that "I'm in charge" attitude.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you, everyone! Diane, the weirdest thing is-- Grimm is not the kind of dog to test and test and test forever. He just needs a few corrections _that count_...very strong, no-nonsense corrections with tons of attitude behind it, and then he _may_ try one or two times more to test-- *then that's it*. He's pretty obedient.







He stops the shennanigans.







He then just calmly accepts "Ohh.. I actually _do_ have to stay in this command until told otherwise." He wants to please.







He wants to do what he wants, too-- but has no huge dominance agenda where he will forever push and test. (Thank GOD!)









Thank you for sharing your stories, everyone. Cain's Mom, you helped a lot! Jean and Val, I had you guys in my head the whole time. Chuck, I hoped I would make you and Jero proud.







Jamie, I wanted to be like you and Ris... had you guys in my mind too! Thank you for the support, Amaruq! Thanks all.









PS-- Cassidy'sMom, you have tought me a lot re doggy socializing.. and you are totally right. Yesterday was a great example that he can judge who to avoid and diffuse, who to gallump along with. Thank you so much for your guidance!


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Patti,

Cain sends you raucous kisses and a chin nibble and to Grimmi he sends wishes for a long gallump in lots of grass with good doggy friends.

I am so happy to read of your success. Determination, resolve and TUDE can be alot. I learned that from a lady I took OB classes from years ago. She was a Oma aged lady with a history of bone fractures that worked a young GSD girl that was a HANDFUL. The more onery the pup got the quieter and more focused the lady became. The pup turned out to be a really nice dog.

Patti, I'll be looking forward to your report when the trainer helps you all to transition to home. Try to practice your "DON'T you even DARE think of doing that LOOK!"


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Yay Patti! I'm so proud of you (and Grimm!) 

May this be the first of a lifetime of positive, joyful outings for you both.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Luca_stlYay Patti! I'm so proud of you (and Grimm!)
> 
> May this be the first of a lifetime of positive, joyful outings for you both.


ditto
ditto
ditto

Mary Jane


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Patti,

Glad to hear you found your inner leader and that both of you did so well. 

When does he come home?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you so very much, Tracy. That means a lot to me! I can never forget the story of Luca's first off-lead healing along the path in the woods you guys take. Thank you for lending your good wishes and support, it means so much!

Nora, you are totally right. I really appreciate your TUDE stories LOL! Please give Cain da mega-snuggles he deserves. You two are a super team.

MaryJane-- thank you thank you thank you.









Ruth-- Grimm comes home Tuesday. But Monday (tomorrow) I go to work with Grimm at the trainer's again for private lessons. Then, this week or next, the trainer comes here a few times to work with us in our own home environment. Yea!









What astounds me and that I cannot understand, is that Grimm is utterly calm.. boneless, bloblike... zero reaction to other dogs. No tension. No locking on visually and getting ready to fire up. Nothin'. Now, If I can heel him with kick-butt leadership attitude and skills, he will not begin to get looser in the heeling, begin peeking longer and longer at other dogs.. basicly, to prevent this from degenerating (possibly) into an old habit, I gotta remain The BurgerMeister- MeisterBurger of the walks. No questions asked!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Darn.. I meant to spell that "heeling" LOL


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! Grimm is back home again!!!
Apparently, I did so well in my leadership, that the trainer let him come home a day or so early.

Well, guess what? Grimm heeled off-lead today in a strange park, past a jogger, a few bicyclists, and (I can't remember if he was on or off-lead for this part) past another dog! Totally calm going by the other dog. Was he perfect? No-- I had to give some strong corrections and walk like I really meant business a few times.. but mostly, a nice yet purposeful walk through a big park we had never been in before. We did this both loose-lead and off lead.

BIG NEWS: After the trainer went home, I watered Grimm, fed him, let him have a nap.. then we went for a walk.. alone! All was lovely in the shade along the sidewalk as we heeled along, loose-lead. Suddenly: Not 10 minutes into our walk, across the street, some kinda dog exploded and fired up at Grimm and I! Grimm turned his head towards the tantrum, checked it out, then ignored it and kept right on loose-lead heeling with me down the sidewalk!! I even have no idea what sort of dog it was, because I never got to see it. Normally, Grimm's snout is pointing towards the other dog, he is lunging and dragging me, barking and hackling up. But now, his brief, casual glance at the loud, outraged dog was like "Yeah? well, it's your problem, man, cos I'm heeling along with my Mom!"

This was the first _safe_ walk in my life with Grimm. I won't get lazy or sloppy, I will keep aware of what is in our surroundings, how he is reacting, and be sure he keeps heeling until told otherwise. I am generous with praise, and now, immediate, firm, and consistant with the corrections when needed. Safe walks are worth it!







We BOTH enjoed our walk!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

Congratulations, Patti! What an absolutely wonderful feeling that must have been!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

Thanks, Ruth & Rafi!







Jean-- ROFL!! Dass bin ich!! (That's me!!) ROFL! Burgermeister Meisterburger!!!!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

Congratulations Grimm and Patti! I'm glad he was able to come home early and that he didn't go nutty on your walks. I hope walks continue to be an enjoyable experience for both of you. Just keep up your calm, in-control attitude and be proactive as much as possible and I'm sure things will continue to go well for you both.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

Yea Patti....... Yahoooo...... I am so so excited for you and Grimm. That is so super.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

Congratulations!!!! That's fantastic, you and Grimm are so inspiring!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Grimm: SUCCESS!!*

YEAH Patti & Grimm!! 
diane


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