# Which (blood)line would you recommend?



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I was talking to a friend and a fellow German Shepherd enthusiast about bloodlines and traits that I was looking for in my next puppy/dog. I have a folder with information and lists with examples of what I am looking for. I read off the list of traits and he had a totally different recommendation for me that the route I was going based on what I am looking into. I find it quite hilarious that two people can have totally different perspectives based on the same information. This person has been around German Shepherds for a long time and has trained with them for a while too. 

I thought it would be fun to see what lines (Czech, WG, DDR, WG Showline, Am./Can. Showline, etc.) YOU would recommend to me based on my research. Some of you already know what I am looking into so try not to give it away for the others ‘playing’. In a day or so I will reveal my preference and the recommendation of my friend.

1. Strong nerved
-

2. High thresholds
- 

3. Toy motivated
- 

4. Food motivated
- 

5. Biddable
-

6. Clear headed
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7. Motivated to work/Eagerness to work
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8. Not *too* prey driven
- 

9. Smaller sized
-

10. Able to work in multiple avenues such as SchH (main goal), agility and possibly confirmation.


These are the few things that are most important to me. I can elaborate on each if you wish but I thought this would give people an idea as to what I am looking for.

Okay, let the guessing begin!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Argh! I just tried to vote for W. German working line and it gave the vote to W. German show line. *sigh*


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I know what you've been leaning towards so I won't vote. I am guessing your friend suggested ****edited out***

Oops! saying that would give away one thing you were not looking into and ruin the fun for some people :hammer: Sorry


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I put DDR, because I think they might have what you are looking for. =)


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I would pick a more moderate pup in a West German Working line litter. About the only qualifications my West German dogs didn't match was the high threshold in prey. I would say that mine tended to have a lower threshold in prey...however that made the need for early drive building activities almost non-existent. It was easier to focus early on impulse control without ever being concerned about squashing the drive. My 66lb male is a dream to train and I'm planning on starting agility this summer with him. 

Although I imagine what you want to find can be found in any dog and it will depend ALOT on what is being produced at the breeders you are looking at rather than the actual lines. 

Sounds to me like what you want to avoid is a Sharp dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would go with a W/German/Czech cross, if the pairing was compatible. Look at the female first for the criteria above, then the males attributes. 
My WG/Cz x is exactly what you posted, except for.... #9 and #10 (size :blush: )


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I said West German Showline. 

My little Odessa has an awesome toy drive, is VERY biddible, has a schutzhund title, has great nerves, good with people, I do not think too much prey drive. She is simply perfect. I can show her too if I want.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

If your goal is SchH and you are not very experienced then nicely balanced West German Working lines. I answered DDR (surprise, surprise ) but then I saw SchH as a main goal.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Moderate, nicely balanced West German WL like Jklatsky and Oksana said.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Moderate, nicely balanced West German WL like Jklatsky and Oksana said.


Jason I've been meaning to ask, what is Ike? I'm thinking WGWL but can't remember:crazy:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I was talking to a friend and a fellow German Shepherd enthusiast about bloodlines and traits that I was looking for in my next puppy/dog. I have a folder with information and lists with examples of what I am looking for. I read off the list of traits and he had a totally different recommendation for me that the route I was going based on what I am looking into. I find it quite hilarious that two people can have totally different perspectives based on the same information. This person has been around German Shepherds for a long time and has trained with them for a while too.
> 
> I thought it would be fun to see what lines (Czech, WG, DDR, WG Showline, Am./Can. Showline, etc.) YOU would recommend to me based on my research. Some of you already know what I am looking into so try not to give it away for the others ‘playing’. In a day or so I will reveal my preference and the recommendation of my friend.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like what you are looking for is what many of us would say is a true standard GSD - regardless of what "line" it comes from.

Good luck with your search!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Jason I've been meaning to ask, what is Ike? I'm thinking WGWL but can't remember:crazy:


Even though he is from Belgium, he is mostly West German with a bit of Belgium tossed in there on the mother's side. He has a tiny tiny tiny bit of DDR on the Father's side (Lord).


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Even though he is from Belgium, he is mostly West German with a bit of Belgium tossed in there on the mother's side. He has a tiny tiny tiny bit of DDR on the Father's side (Lord).


Thanks! I knew he was from Belgium, also remember you almost got a Malinois..silly Jason

I really love Ike. He is more than I could handle, maybe someday 

Sorry for going off topic Elisabeth.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Ike is my doggy crush - I love that boy!!!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Thanks! I knew he was from Belgium, also remember you almost got a Malinois..silly Jason
> 
> I really love Ike. He is more than I could handle, maybe someday


It's okay, Brandi. Ike is more than Ike can handle sometimes.

Funny - someone else today just reminded me that I almost went for a malinois! Almost!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I put WGWL...but I think it all depends on the dogs in the pedigree! I think a mix would be good (Belgian/WG, Czech/WG, etc) if it has the right dogs in it.

That's all I'll say since I have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I put WGWL...but I think it all depends on the dogs in the pedigree! I think a mix would be good (Belgian/WG, Czech/WG, etc) if it has the right dogs in it.
> 
> That's all I'll say since I have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for


Yes, I think you of all people (and a couple others) know exactly what I am looking for.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, so the friend suggested West German Showline. Nothing against them, I love them and have up until Stark owned only that. My beautiful Beau (RIP) was a gorgeous WGSL.

BUT..

For my needs, goals and what I am looking for.... I am looking for a cross of either Czech and WG working line or Czech and some Belgain with possibly a little DDR thrown in for good measure somewhere.

I am not really looking at 'bloodlines' per say anymore as I realize it's the dogs in the pedigree (especially close up) that really "make the dog" so currently I am looking into matings in the next year or so that will happen with dogs that I like and I think will fit into my life and help me achieve my goals. 

I just find it so interesting that someone can have such a different opinion based on the same information. I was very curious to see what others would suggest. If they would suggest "their own" (the line they own) or if they would suggest something different.

@ Codmaster - yes, I realize it seems I want the "ideal standard" and in a way you are right. I am looking for a dog who can live comfortably with me and mine (Stark and the cats) and be comfortable out and about in public (this is big for me) and yet kick some @$$ out on the field too!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hmmm. Interesting! Well, again, perhaps because I already know that's NOT what you want...it wasn't even a consideration. 

Stark is an excellent WGSL cross I think. Maybe it's that and the DDR...but you aren't 100% satisfied with what you have and want more intensity overall than what you have...sooooooooo 

I think you tested the waters with Stark and are ready to move onto a dog that kicks it up another notch!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> For my needs, goals and what I am looking for.... I am looking for a cross of either Czech and WG working line or Czech and some Belgain with possibly a little DDR thrown in for good measure somewhere.


I am really interested in this thread too as I am looking for the same things you are. I, however, have a dog with the drive to work and speed and all of that but he's reactive and a prey monster - I want HIGH HIGH HIGH thresholds. I want my TD to work his butt off to teach the game but then I want the dog to excel. I also want to do multiple venues - conformation would be fun but specifically flyball, agility, dock jumping and rally and ob. 

I am really looking at WG/Czech because they have a lot of what I like. But, I don't know if I want the sharpness I have heard the Czech line can throw. I LOVE the look of full DDR dogs but I think overall they are way to large to excel at some of the things I enjoy doing.

I know the maturity rates are different for the different lines and I still don't know exactly what I want in that case - waiting to see how Madix pans out as an adult to draw more conclusions. 

Jason - and who would that person who mentioned the Malinois be?? haha


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Hmmm. Interesting! Well, again, perhaps because I already know that's NOT what you want...it wasn't even a consideration.
> 
> Stark is an excellent WGSL cross I think. Maybe it's that and the DDR...but you aren't 100% satisfied with what you have and want more intensity overall than what you have...sooooooooo
> 
> I think you tested the waters with Stark and are ready to move onto a dog that kicks it up another notch!


I have definitely learned a lot with Stark and still continue too. He is a great challenge sometimes too much of one but I keep thinking that I will be more prepared for the next with everything we have gone through.

I truely believe it's the Showline side of Stark that I am not really liking - the nerve issue I believe comes from his dams side as I know many offspring from the sire and the sire himself is amazing. He's DDR/WG cross ( ARAGORN VOM KRAFTWERK - German shepherd dog ). If I could change Stark's reactiveness and increase his drives/motivation/willingness to work then I would have the perfect dog. 

Falon, we should definitely exchange "pairing/mating/breeder lists" some day.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

My Showline meets almost all that criteria, now he is just starting his Schutzhund career so I am not sure about the threshold or nerves as of yet, but if he tackles that with the same zeal and heart as he has everything else he's ever been asked to do, than I have no doubt he'll be more than adequate for me, plus he's got the looks and disposition to do much more than just Schutzhund. I want to tackle herding next!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

FG167 said:


> Jason - and who would that person who mentioned the Malinois be?? haha


Someone with a nutty dutchie with low low low threshold. Just my kind of dog!!!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Your description is what I hope to get out of my current Xita x Bandit litter, which is a DDR x West German cross. Strong, strong nerves, high drive, great looks. Not sure where thresholds will end up. 

Bandit's very clear-headed, and Xita is totally clear-headed--neither has dog aggression and are easy around new people. Xita's got a lot of defense/protectiveness of any territory that she's on--it becomes _hers_. I walk her up to someone, though, she's fine.

It's an outcross breeding, though, so I'll just have to see what the puppies are like and how much they vary.

My main thought though, was to look at the West German working lines known for good conformation, not the top sport ones, necessarily, and probably stay away from Yoschy and Nick (low thresholds).


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

The best young dog in our club is a West German WL and he is pretty much just what you described in the original post. The drive is good, his bite is very hard and sure, but what jumps out at you when you watch him work is just how collected he is on the field at 20 months (fantastic nerve, high threshold).


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I really like the WG lines and originally was going to stick with them, but I have met some crosses (wuth Czech) and I really have liked what I have seen. All of the dogs I have been "oohing and ahhing" over seem to have a large portion of Czech in them. Currently I am researching dogs that I have seen or been recommened to check out from these lines. 

I really want a dog suited for SchH but also that can do other things with me - I like to try everything. Stark is great for that as he is so willing to try anything that having another dog like that but without the motivation issues and the reactiveness (which I believe are partly genetic/age) would be ideal.

I am not sure what my living situation will be in a years time (around the time I will be ready to bring another dog in) but just incase I want to make clear when choosing a dog that having them around strange people and in difficult situations for a dog (especially a GSD) that they will take it in stride. Stark has problems with this and so I would like to "change" that with the next. Hopefully by then Stark and I will be in a place where we will have this under control either through maintance/training or maturity.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Confirmation? Are you only looking for Catholic dogs?

;-)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Confirmation?


Oops, looks like my spell checker on Word corrected my spelling with the wrong word! 

Haha.. definitely a typo.

CONFORMATION - this is something I think would be fun for the socialization aspect alone. Definitely not a main goal but something "fun" to do with a pup/young dog. Not extremely important to me to be honest.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I really want a dog suited for SchH but also that can do other things with me - I like to try everything. Stark is great for that as he is so willing to try anything that having another dog like that but without the motivation issues and the reactiveness (which I believe are partly genetic/age) would be ideal.
> 
> I am not sure what my living situation will be in a years time (around the time I will be ready to bring another dog in) but just incase I want to make clear when choosing a dog that having them around strange people and in difficult situations for a dog (especially a GSD) that they will take it in stride. Stark has problems with this and so I would like to "change" that with the next. Hopefully by then Stark and I will be in a place where we will have this under control either through maintance/training or maturity.


Oooo me too! Me too!! LOL gosh, I can't wait to see what you get as my timeline is more 1.5-2.5 years


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

No, no, Elisabeth. I'm going to cross Ike with a mal or a dutchie and send you Ike Jr. The puppy with have no threshold ... at all. It'll be fun.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Jason L said:


> No, no, Elisabeth. I'm going to cross Ike with a mal or a dutchie and send you Ike Jr. The puppy with have no threshold ... at all. It'll be fun.



Just think how much fun! You could train from a lawn chair because all you'd have to do is wave your arm to activate the prey drive...and just give a little stare and the defense would kick in! Just think!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Like this! :wub:


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:wub: He looks like FUN!!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Jason L said:


> No, no, Elisabeth. I'm going to cross Ike with a mal or a dutchie and send you Ike Jr. The puppy with have no threshold ... at all. It'll be fun.


:rofl:

You guys are too funny!

And are scaring me


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jason L said:


> No, no, Elisabeth. I'm going to cross Ike with a mal or a dutchie and send you Ike Jr. The puppy with have no threshold ... at all. It'll be fun.


Sounds wonderfully scary!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Like this! :wub:
> 
> YouTube - Spike Van Leeuwen


OMG... this made me laugh so hard... hilarious!


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> 1. Strong nerved
> -
> 
> 2. High thresholds
> ...


Elisabeth, the first thing I thought of was a good West German working line x Czech (or possibly DDR) mix. And Onyx'girl reminded me just now that both Karlo and Gryff are WGWL x Czech! From what I have heard of the two as pet/companions and as Schutzhund dogs, I can say that they really sound like what you are looking for. 

I would say that with West German working lines, the criteria they do not usually meet is the high thresholds part, just as it was mentioned previously. Trent has a relatively high prey drive, but it is his low threshold that is the challenge when we try to work on issues such as cat chasing (the neighborhood cats have a very nasty habit of literally popping out of bushes and patches of grass to zip right beneath our noses and down the streets). Of course, his prey drive is completely controllable, but he still wears a prong collar because of this.

His nerves are excellent, though - he is a serious dog, and that part of him is showing through as he matures. He assesses situations before he acts, but clear headed... well, maybe that will come as he grows up. At 2 years old his impulse control still needs work in many situations. I have a feeling he won't fully mature until he is at least 4 years old. Now, toy driven? YES!!! It is not simply having the toy that satisfies him, however, but rather, being able to engage in play with me. Nothing motivates him like a good, albeit brief, game of tug as a training reward. 

He is also on the larger end of the scale, weighed him today and I think he is going around the 85 lb range. He gets that from his sire without a doubt, his dam is 64 lbs if I am not mistaken, a small, agile, beautiful bitch. Lies' Kenya is also considered quite small, I remember her mentioning that she was around the 50 - 60 lb range, although the numbers could be wrong. I do usually notice that the DDR and Czech lines to be on the larger end of the scale, as they are often quite substantial dogs.

Trent, however, isn't full West German working lines. Just as Ike has a dab of Lord, Trent also has Lord behind him, coming from his dam's side, along with Muchta v Schwarzhorn and Don v Haus Iris, to name a few. He also has a bit of Czech through his sire's side - Cent An Sat, littermate to Cordon An Sat. Cent An Sat is awfully far back, however, and I doubt that it's enough to count. There was a thread a good while back discussing his dam's pedigree, and I know several of the forum experts gave their opinion (Jklatsky and Christine/Blackthorn, if I am not mistaken). High prey drive, low thresholds, active aggression... Cliff has also mentioned expecting solid nerves but also relatively low biddability for the breed... a member of a Schutzhund club who has worked with Trent's sire mentioned that he produced a certain degree of sharpness. 

I guess a lot of it depends on where you place your priorities and to what degree. For example, I honestly can see why your friend may have recommended West German show lines even while you stated that Schutzhund would be a main focus. But you may find (as I know you know) that the average West German show line work in different drives compared to a West German working line compared to the Czech working lines compared to the DDR working lines. This is not a knock on West German show lines, there are excellent dogs among these lines in Schutzhund, I am sure (Gipsi vom Sawtooth in particular comes to mind), but, as always, a generalization. 



Jason L said:


> Like this! :wub:
> 
> YouTube - Spike Van Leeuwen


Now that looks like a fun dog! :wild: (of course I'd be enjoying/admiring from a distance...!!)


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