# Working/Companion breeder Ontario



## dobeowner82 (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi there,

New to the forum - we currently have a doberman and while we love him to death we would never have another. Too many health and temperment issues in the breed. He is what I would called Neurotic. We are wanting to get a shepherd for our next pet but in looking we definitely prefer the look and stability of temperment of the working lines. We are an active pet home - hiking, doing obedience for home and fun - not competing but still engaging the mind. Would be intersting in getting into tracking. What breeders do we know of in Ontario that breed a healthy working dog that is stable of temperment and would be happy in a "companion" home still getting lots of exercise and work.

Thanks!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Welcome to you!

Carmspack here on the board would be my first stop to check into!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I'd absolutely 2nd the suggestion to contact Carmspack.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> I'd absolutely 2nd the suggestion to contact Carmspack.


Do you have a dog from them?

I'm curious because I've seen a lot of hype around Carmspack within the last few months and wondering what the sudden interest is?

I'm not bashing them in any way because their pedigrees and titles speak for themselves, but how come in the last little while, this breeder has gained such popularity and why everyone is suddenly recommending them?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I always think going out and meeting the dogs is the biggest part of recommending them. I don't get to recommend many because I have only met Wolfstraum's dogs doing flyball in the Buffalo area - amazing dogs though, have to say I like them a lot.  And two of Debbie Zappia's dogs that I liked a lot.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

www.committedtocanine.com have seen the dogs work She has nice dogs I liked Russo-she could also probably reccommend other breeders to you


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm known to many for decades promoting strong capable working dogs ms Jax's mom.
I have been active for 35 years true and steady on my course.
I have had experience in obedience trialing , multi high in trials, Benjamin Schulz award, Sentry Challenge award, multiple Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction, Obedience Grand Victrix score 199.5 / 200 top dog in Canada with US competitors.
I have supplied dogs to RCMP , US police , Bomb Specialists, Prisons dogs, have graduate working guide dogs, SAR , top Sch H dogs , etc etc , all from generations of dogs which I have bred. I am not a broker . These are my dogs.
I have an understanding of feeding raw - have been doing so for about 30 years actually and was interviewed by a US magazine in 1988 for an article of the then revoluntionary raw feeding . I had already been doing it for about 5 years before then . Going on bike or TTC with a trundle buggy in the heat of a Toronto summer to Kensington market where there was a huge kosher chicken slaughtery right on Spadina. 
I have a network of what I call my scientific advisory board , where I bounce ideas off all the time, active discussions quicker then ping pong sometimes. Great fun.
I have a line of supplements.

I love to share what I know , and as you see have spent a great deal of time helping out where I can. 

The flurry of interest may be there because I am new to the forum, meeting many new people . 

By the way no titles on the dogs --- they go out to work . They all come from a solid base of proven real-work dogs, are tested for work and lines are only advanced if they prove themselves to be a high ratio successful in work. I like dependability.
If only the occassional one or two are able that is not enough for me. Back to the drawing board . I have had litters where nearly all, with the exception of an animal or two held back for breeding have gone to work, certified, from large litters.

I only have a litter or two per year.

If I can do anything to help raise the bar of the breeder and the end-user buyer's expectations ---- then I feel I will have made use of my time on forums and lists worthwhile.

I thank every one sincerely for your support . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Another vote for Carmen at Carmspack.

I have not met her dogs or Carmen herself but have many trusted club members, friends, acquaintances recommend her program to me. All have said she produces solid, stable, workable dogs. I know she is on "my list".


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I don't have any experience with this kennel either, but have met a couple of dogs out of them. Supberb working dogs with a tone of drive, sound nerve and excellent temperaments. One was a family companion in an active home (hiking and biking) and another was doing schutzhund.

German Shepherd breeder,German Shepherd puppies


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I'm known to many for decades promoting strong capable working dogs ms Jax's mom.


I wasn't really questioning your credentials (that's meant to sound positive, not snarky), but more the people recommending your kennel. Do they have experience with your dogs or did they just hear about you from others on the web?

Your kennel is interesting and it would be nice to hear from people who have first hand experience....

...I'm all out of ways to try to diplomatically ask "have you actually _seen_ these dogs or are you just BSing to look like you know what you're talking about?"  (not directed at anyone in particular)


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Jax's Mom said:


> Do you have a dog from them?
> 
> I'm curious because I've seen a lot of hype around Carmspack within the last few months and wondering what the sudden interest is?
> 
> I'm not bashing them in any way because their pedigrees and titles speak for themselves, but how come in the last little while, this breeder has gained such popularity and why everyone is suddenly recommending them?


 
Carmen may not have been on this board for many years like some of the breeders on this board, but she is definitely well known and not new to the GSD/Schutzhund World.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think Jax's mom is getting to the idea of - we see pictures of dogs, we read descriptions of them, we read what their breeders say, and that is all really good info, but it's the meeting of the dogs that really is the key to a recommendation - I think that is what she might be saying? Another layer - it's one thing if I meet one, it's another if say...Vandal meets them. 

In my mind, I know whose dogs I think I might like, but having not met them...do I know? And how could I compare them to other dogs?

And this is not about any breeders here, mentioned here, etc. just in general - to recommend.


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## dobeowner82 (Apr 4, 2011)

*...*

Thanks for recommendations. I have started by emailing Carmspack. I am not in rush - probably not even this year would be looking for a puppy but I want to make sure we do get a puppy with solid temperment and health as a priority. I figure good things take time so I'm willing to ask questions and learn from those who know more than myself!
thanks!


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Jax's mom is absolutely right about asking this question. It is not necessarily an issue of 2+2=5, but _why_ 2+2=5.
I'm not quite sure if German Shepherds have the same issues of Dobermans in this province, but it frequently happens where a particular breeder is automatically recommended to one and all. Now, they are a good breeder who titles and health tests and appear to love their animals. But the issue is if you talk to people who have actually met them and their dogs, they would caution puppy lookers to their kennel.

Personnally, I think its very important to only personnally recommend kennels you've seen with your own eyes. If not, maybe add 'I've heard good things' or something to the like. Remember, once you recommend something you may be asked to back up why. 'They have a nice website' may not back it. 'I saw the stud of the current litter take a lot of pressure from a decoy, he didnt flinch!' may be a better one.

It also comes down to that different people are looking for different things. Puppy buyers have a lot of information to wade through if they are going to do it right. Everyone looks for something different, everyone looks for something special-to them.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

No offense Carmen, but I thought you were a man.lol.

I looked at her website,and you indeed have beautiful dogs.=)


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I'm known to many for decades promoting strong capable working dogs ms Jax's mom.
> I have been active for 35 years true and steady on my course.
> I have had experience in obedience trialing , multi high in trials, Benjamin Schulz award, Sentry Challenge award, multiple Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction, Obedience Grand Victrix score 199.5 / 200 top dog in Canada with US competitors.
> I have supplied dogs to RCMP , US police , Bomb Specialists, Prisons dogs, have graduate working guide dogs, SAR , top Sch H dogs , etc etc , all from generations of dogs which I have bred. I am not a broker . These are my dogs.
> ...


:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Deathmetal said:


> Jax's mom is absolutely right about asking this question. It is not necessarily an issue of 2+2=5, but _why_ 2+2=5.
> I'm not quite sure if German Shepherds have the same issues of Dobermans in this province, but it frequently happens where a particular breeder is automatically recommended to one and all. Now, they are a good breeder who titles and health tests and appear to love their animals. But the issue is if you talk to people who have actually met them and their dogs, they would caution puppy lookers to their kennel.
> 
> Personnally, I think its very important to only personnally recommend kennels you've seen with your own eyes. If not, maybe add 'I've heard good things' or something to the like. Remember, once you recommend something you may be asked to back up why. 'They have a nice website' may not back it. 'I saw the stud of the current litter take a lot of pressure from a decoy, he didnt flinch!' may be a better one.
> ...


When someone comes on to ask recommendations, it doesn't hurt to suggest_ well known responsible_ breeders whether you've personally met them or not.
Their reputation speaks for themselves and if a poster asking this type question(obviously doesn't know where to begin) it helps to be pointed in a good direction.

I also understand those saying "I love the looks of this breeders dogs, I recommend them" 

When you ask a question about breeders on a website, you need to use good judgement in your research, regardless.
One other thought, responsible breeders will let potential buyers know if they don't have a pup that will fit their lifestyle and can recommend other breeders that may be a better match. So it doesn't hurt to contact breeders just for more information, regardless of whether or not you'll be interested in their lines.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

It IS true that there have been people who have added a link to a thread and "recommended" a breeder, only to admit when asked that they simply googled for a place near where the poster said they lived and thought the dogs on the web site looked nice.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Kris10 said:


> It IS true that there have been people who have added a link to a thread and "recommended" a breeder, only to admit when asked that they simply googled for a place near where the poster said they lived and thought the dogs on the web site looked nice.


I quite agree, and that is a pet peeve of mine! I also feel that there is a big difference between breeders who are active participants on the board and freely give help and advice to all members here, regardless if the member is an experienced person with a pedigreed working dog or a new member with a sick BYB puppy. You can tell if they really are into it for the dogs, and not just showing up to share puppy pictures when they have a litter on the ground.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that's important to ask WHY someone is recommending a dog. And then do your own research. It is buyer beware in all instances and if the ONLY thing you're going off of is some random person on the internet's opinion than it's your bad. 

When I recommend a breeder I will usually qualify why. Whether it's knowing them on the internet, because I've seen their dogs, because people I train with know and recommend them, etc.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jax's Mom said:


> I wasn't really questioning your credentials (that's meant to sound positive, not snarky), but more the people recommending your kennel. Do they have experience with your dogs or did they just hear about you from others on the web?
> 
> Your kennel is interesting and it would be nice to hear from people who have first hand experience..


I totally see what you're getting at Jax and I've noticed it too. Carmen kind of showed up one day and a few weeks later everyone is recommending her kennel. It's hard NOT to think that all these people are just going based on what they read on the forums. "Hey, this person is looking for a breeder in Canada. . .Carmspack is in Canada and she's on the forums!" However, I do see several folks who own her dogs, and Cliff had some very nice things to say about her, which carries a lot of weight to me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Emoore, thanks for the kind words....Carmen is the real deal....period. Her knowledge and more important her understanding of the breed is extensive. Her understanding of learning, diet, pedigrees, history, in this breed far surpasses my knowledgebase, and I think the breed is lucky to have her. But most important Carmen is honest and decisive in dealing with the breed and makes decisions based on research/facts and not on emotions and what she likes. This to me is the foundation of the pillars of the breed.JMO


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my goodness Cliff . Thank you so much. 
For Jax's mom and others my dogs are under constant scrutiny. From the time they are 4 or 5 months we have depts start scouting dogs that will be available in the near future. They are tested in side out . All locations, any time of the day , with or without us , either Mike who is the raising and preparing partner, or myself . They have to be able to stand on their own. 
So many do go to police depts . Check the forum on actual police pedigrees page 2 where Mike Clay provided links and pedigrees to many. 
You've seen them on TV playing roles on Due South , and on the Nature of Things , Dr David Suzuki (Hudson) years ago, and had my female not been pregnant they would have been on Police Academy the movie.
Have you seen BrownTrout Calendars? Carmspack Working German Shepherds, Links That is Ranger son of Carmspack Oh Yes -- a gsd that graced the cover years in a row of this highly successful Calendar . Now another dog owned by the photographer Mark Raycroft has stepped into Rangers spot light - Carmspack Dawson . The first Sable GSD to appear in a commercial venture was one of mine . Not only wall calendars but daily journals etc. so chances are you've seen one of my dogs but not known it.

Google the name and you can see lots of youtubeys , including one from the newest batch "Gage" doing his first ever hidden search .

"Samba" has a dog from me. Laurel Satov, and many with Mike Clay . These are just the people that I know are on the forum. Ask Linda Shaw -- here again is the blog and you can see Trust, Blast and Elle-KIRA BIRCH-BARK HILL -- contact and ask.







If I did this right it is Fred Boutins Chunko , regionals Sch H 3 dog on the cover of a Browntrout Calendar I have had people come to look at dogs come mid morning and we just get carried away showing and explaining and comparing and showing more and they are here solong I have them stay for lunch. 
Today I had a young female pup for her first long drive and outing to Mike's. First time off property , first time on lead . Genetic obedience . After a minute of resisting the collar , she was trotting beside me on the left with concentrated focus, not distracted by the barking dogs that we passed to get to the back field, not distracted by Mikes lovely young daughter beside her . Within 30 feet I was able to drop the light gripper lead and she was still beside me , left side , perfect heel position , eye contact . Then we did retrievals, first man track , which was difficult because I placed myself on the bottom of a ridge and the wind was catching the scent and collecting it by a mature stand of cedars . I saw her going around in circles at the top of the hill. As soon as Mike took a few steps down the hill , some 30 feet away , she caught the scent and made a beeline. On the return to the house her brothers were barking and so she advanced a good 100 plus feet BUT did a flying recall when I called her in, in spite of the distraction.
Then I took her for a walk in town where I got stopped several times answering questions . They thought she was a new breed and an adult because of the way she negotiated traffic and held her heel position . 
Any one that is serious can get my vets phone number and all and any numbers of people that do have or have had my dogs , and you are welcome to see them any time. I don't have drill trained dogs at the moment as I work them in such a way to reveal their instincts and drives -- which is what is passed on in breeding and not the training. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have a Carmspack female....U-CDX Carmspack Samba CD RA TDX (TC, HIC).

We have done some things together, thus the titles, but it is the living with the dog that has been the best. A good girl devoted to me and mine completely.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey Carmspack, can I come play with puppies?:wild:


Haha, okay though seriously glad to know your in town.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Jax's Mom, you raised an important point which I'll try to remember in the future when responding to these requests.

I haven't met her or seen her dogs. In fact, & perhaps it's a fine point, I recommended _contacting_ her which is an early action when choosing a breeder & is far removed from deciding for or against that breeder. 

I've been impressed with her responses on the board, the info contained on her web site & a perusal of the dogs depicted on her site. She's knowledgeable, experienced & dedicated to breeding healthy, sound GSDs that excel as companions as well as working dogs. Her posts are respectful & reasonable which indicates Carmen's temperament is solid, too. IMO, this is important, b/c I don't want hysteria, obfuscation & silly drama in the people I do business with, especially on something as important as buying a beloved pet. 

I'm certain Carmen & I don't agree 100%. In fact, there's an excellent chance we disagree strongly on some issues both related & unrelated to GSDs. I don’t need to agree with people to like, admire, respect or do business with them. Personally, I’ve learned the most from discussions where I disagreed with people.


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

I have a great deal of experience with Carmspack dogs because I assist in raising and preparing them for service, therefore, I have an opportunity to see a variety of Carmens dogs both hands on (approximately 12 so far from varying litters) as well as training clients and associates who have them. The majority of these dogs could do sport quite easily with a good handler (see Carmspack Chunko, SchIII, handled by Fred Boutin, a first-time handler... this dog was decoys choice at last years Candian Nationals). You may not see titles behind the names of Carmspack breeding dogs but the kennel name has more tracking titles under the CKC than any other breeder I believe.

This link to my website help outline my experience and success with the dogs:

https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/

Carmen is brutally honest, blunt and means well when she offers advice as you will see on this forum... advice with over 30 years of experience in this field and a passion for researching and applying what she has learned. She is upfront and honest with all inquiries regarding her puppies (she is not a salesperson). She will tell you they are not for everybody, which I completely agree with. Being a pet dog trainer I can tell you that there are many people out there who should not own animals period, let alone a dog that is strong willed, intelligent and confident. 

The Carmspack dogs I have raised are not sharp or nervy, can ramp up and calm down well, have a very intense need to search, have good prey motivation but not over the top. They track well naturally (see Agros first track at 14 weeks, 



) and they have a great natural protective instinct but are not hair-trigger. I would not hesitate in recommending them for appropriate homes.


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