# The hunt for a stud



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The ever long search for a stud to use is an exciting, and nerve wracking task. Trying to decide what you're looking for to compliment your female. Trying to find the perfect dog to help correct or pick up some things, yet is also similar to the female being bred. For me, it's searching for the "diamond in the rough", the dogs that hardly anyone uses. Not looking at the flavor of the month, or get caught up in the alphabet soup 1,000 titles, but looking at the individual dogs. Struggling to get all the info I need on the dogs. The struggle of keeping myself in check and look for dogs to keep the balance. This means hours in front of the computer looking at pedigrees and mating outcomes. Email's and phone calls to stud owners and watching video after video. All in search of that unicorn. Then once one is decided on, the gut wrenching feeling. The nervousness. The second guessing yourself. Did I make the right choice? Is this going to turn out the way I hope? It can be rather scary. 

Anyways, this post is really just a glimpse of what goes on inside my head. How is it for you guys? Lisa? Lee? You both are far more experienced than me in this. Does it ever get easier? Do you ever just get so comfortable in your decisions that you don't worry about it? How about you Alexis? You've had more litters than me, but are still "newer" to this. What is your process like?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I try to think 2 or 3 or 4 generations down the road. I experiment on paper (peds) a lot. From what I'm able to gather it seems most working dogs are not "purebred" but they aren't just random mixes either. It looks like the recipe calls for german belgian and dutch ingredients now? so what does gsd bring to that table? I assume bsd brings the prey? I assume prey isn't all that hard to find in sport lines? I don't even know what defensive aggression is, but from what I read it's at least somewhat elusive. At this point I assume defense is what gsd brings to the mix? And maybe size, I guess? Obviously I like to think outside the box. A big black and tan with a lot of defense might be worth a look?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> The ever long search for a stud to use is an exciting, and nerve wracking task. Trying to decide what you're looking for to compliment your female. Trying to find the perfect dog to help correct or pick up some things, yet is also similar to the female being bred. For me, it's searching for the "diamond in the rough", the dogs that hardly anyone uses. Not looking at the flavor of the month, or get caught up in the alphabet soup 1,000 titles, but looking at the individual dogs. Struggling to get all the info I need on the dogs. The struggle of keeping myself in check and look for dogs to keep the balance. This means hours in front of the computer looking at pedigrees and mating outcomes. Email's and phone calls to stud owners and watching video after video. All in search of that unicorn. Then once one is decided on, the gut wrenching feeling. The nervousness. The second guessing yourself. Did I make the right choice? Is this going to turn out the way I hope? It can be rather scary.
> 
> Anyways, this post is really just a glimpse of what goes on inside my head. How is it for you guys? Lisa? Lee? You both are far more experienced than me in this. Does it ever get easier? Do you ever just get so comfortable in your decisions that you don't worry about it? How about you Alexis? You've had more litters than me, but are still "newer" to this. What is your process like?


Are you planning something? Lol.
Whatever your process is, based on what you have produced, I don't think you should change much.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> The ever long search for a stud to use is an exciting, and nerve wracking task. Trying to decide what you're looking for to compliment your female. Trying to find the perfect dog to help correct or pick up some things, yet is also similar to the female being bred. For me, it's searching for the "diamond in the rough", the dogs that hardly anyone uses. Not looking at the flavor of the month, or get caught up in the alphabet soup 1,000 titles, but looking at the individual dogs. Struggling to get all the info I need on the dogs. The struggle of keeping myself in check and look for dogs to keep the balance. This means hours in front of the computer looking at pedigrees and mating outcomes. Email's and phone calls to stud owners and watching video after video. All in search of that unicorn. Then once one is decided on, the gut wrenching feeling. The nervousness. The second guessing yourself. Did I make the right choice? Is this going to turn out the way I hope? It can be rather scary.
> 
> Anyways, this post is really just a glimpse of what goes on inside my head. How is it for you guys? Lisa? Lee? You both are far more experienced than me in this. Does it ever get easier? Do you ever just get so comfortable in your decisions that you don't worry about it? How about you Alexis? You've had more litters than me, but are still "newer" to this. What is your process like?



Thank goodness you are doing some intensive research. I will never breed, but I still look at pedigrees at least 7 generations back before making a purchase. The intense back massing on Fero makes me shudder. Yes, there will be nice individual dogs from such litters, but there is also a much greater probability of health and temperament problems with this type of breeding. Allergies, IBS, weakened immune response, fear aggression and in the case of a couple of popular sires from the not too distant past, handler aggression. The best dog I ever had was also one of the strongest but was incredibly social and possessed remarkable discernment when it came to perceiving a threat. So called experienced people told me no strong dog with handler sensitivity could possibly also be one that possessed strong nerve. They did not realize breeding could indeed produce strong natural aggression, lack of human and other dog aggression, biddability and an incredible willingness to work. Lee and Lisa have spent years studying and sticking with a program that can produce consistent results. It is encouraging to see someone as young as yourself trying to establish a roadmap. Good luck.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Berno,
What do you mean by "it seems most working dogs are not purebred...? GSDs bred in other countries are still GSDs. The country a kennel that breeds is located can have some impact on selection, but selection has more to do with the protection sport that is predominant in that country. IGP is still the predominant sport for the GSD. But in the Netherlands, KNPV is a big sport and GSDs bred to participate in that sport which has the purpose of breeding to produce police dogs will have more of an impact on the traits selected for than simply geographical location. In Belgium, there is Belgian Ring which is dominated by Mals, but for a breeder there breeding GSDs that can excel in Belgian Ring, different traits would be selected for like emphasis on grip and more middle sized, agile dogs due to the demands of that sport. Defensive aggression is not elusive at all in a balanced GSD and it is in all animals as it is a survival mechanism. But there are different types of defensive aggression that are on a continuum from strong, confident and violent to a fear biter, and there are also thresholds in defensive aggression to consider as well as nerves. You can really see the effect of selection based on sports in Mals with the result being very different lines, much more so than in the GSD. I doubt Mycobraracr would be moved to select a big black and tan GSD with a lot of defense. Color has nothing to do with temperament for the most part. Often, highly defensive dogs are not the strongest dogs. Prey drive is a valuable trait.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It took me 15 years to find a near perfect male....pedigree, temperament, working ability, social presence, true standard "V" conformation, health (hips, elbows, back, DM - and 4/5 others in litter same ability, temperament and clear health ratings!). The only thing I do not like about him is his facial color....and I really did not have the females for him.......because he was not "the flavor of the month" or highly promoted, he did not get used alot.......and it is the loss of small breeders who care about the breed that he did not. Pedigrees keep getting more and more bottlenecked, health issues and back issues plague the popular lines, but people don't want to look beyond that marketability of a big name competitor.

I am still looking vainly for something that would compare to him for my Lynx - love the pups from her first litter...but would still like something without Fero for her. 

Lee


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

I have a pup from the male that Lee mentioned. Just an amazing dog in every way. Komet has produced amazing offspring who have gone into everything from detection, to SAR, to sport. All of whom are also family dogs. Just great, balanced examples of the breed.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Are you planning something? Lol.
> Whatever your process is, based on what you have produced, I don't think you should change much.


I've got something in the works right now. I've got a good list of people and one of my "A" litter girls lined up. Now I need to find the right male. I am extremely confident in the female line, so I need a male that will compliment that. 



wolfstraum said:


> It took me 15 years to find a near perfect male....pedigree, temperament, working ability, social presence, true standard "V" conformation, health (hips, elbows, back, DM - and 4/5 others in litter same ability, temperament and clear health ratings!). The only thing I do not like about him is his facial color....and I really did not have the females for him.......because he was not "the flavor of the month" or highly promoted, he did not get used alot.......and it is the loss of small breeders who care about the breed that he did not. Pedigrees keep getting more and more bottlenecked, health issues and back issues plague the popular lines, but people don't want to look beyond that marketability of a big name competitor.
> 
> I am still looking vainly for something that would compare to him for my Lynx - love the pups from her first litter...but would still like something without Fero for her.
> 
> Lee


It is just so much work! I looked at one male that I liked, but the pedigree wouldn't. Like you said, so much back-massing that I just couldn't do it. I'm still trying to open things up. That's what I'm finding the issue to be. Pedigree's and true working ability. The looks department is Kierstens. I personally just want dogs that will work with good temperament. She want's those things too, but always says no ugly dogs haha. So once they past my test they go to her for final approval haha. 

The male you talked about. Is he still around? Available? Mind sharing who he is?


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

The male Lee is referring to is Komet - Komet von Wolfstraum - he is still with Lee... My previous post, upon rereading, wasn't clear on that. I have Omen from Lee's O litter.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> The male Lee is referring to is Komet - Komet von Wolfstraum - he is still with Lee... My previous post, upon rereading, wasn't clear on that. I have Omen from Lee's O litter.



I thought that's who she was referring to, thank you. I've looked at him before, for Kimber. I like him. He works a lot like my wife's male, but my wife's dog isn't compatible. At least for Kimber.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I thought that's who she was referring to, thank you. I've looked at him before, for Kimber. I like him. He works a lot like my wife's male, but my wife's dog isn't compatible. At least for Kimber.


I’m curious why the dog isn’t compatible.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’m curious why the dog isn’t compatible.



Kimber and Xander are both DM carriers. So it's not a breeding a would do. I wish I could have bred those two together. Pedigree aside, dog to dog I'd love to cross them.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

How did your A litter dogs turn out?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Conell seemed to produce will with Amira. Would be interesting to see him paired with her sister!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Berno,
> What do you mean by "it seems most working dogs are not purebred...?












the more I look, the more composites I see



Chip Blasiole said:


> Color has nothing to do with temperament for the most part.


A quick study of available working gsd litters suggests at least a contemporary correlation between color/s and type. So much so that even dedicated companion/pet breeders crank out litters for the look, because it's "so fashionable."



Chip Blasiole said:


> Often, highly defensive dogs are not the strongest dogs. Prey drive is a valuable trait.


The prey component is essential, but prey is easy to identify early on in a litter, and prey driven dogs do well in sport. This is why we see heelers, bullys and even little terriers (et al.) title where somebody bothers to train one.

In his book v stephanitz seems to suggest thuringian x wurttemberger x swabian was “the colonel’s original secret recipe” and the historical va list supports that by illustrating all 3 types were alternately selected for the first few decades.

The modern “extra crispy” working composite recipe clearly expresses bsd/dsd/gsd type, so again, what does gsd bring to that mix? Perhaps the better question is, what don’t bsd/dsd bring to that mix? Both are smaller, and both are known for prey drive, therefore size and defense may be at least _perceived_ hallmarks of the gsd ingredient.

Of course these are gross oversimplifications, but prey driven sport dogs will continue to be readily available for the foreseeable future, so what does one really have to loose? We’re talking outcross stud here, right? This is a one time thing, not linebreeding. So whatever we use now will only get lost in the shuffle down the line anyway. In that situation I would take the opportunity to attempt to diversify genetically, in hopes of gleaning some short term heterosis not only on the outcross but again on the backcross. It's the same principle as composite breeding. Type A gsd x type B gsd and/or type A gsd x A/B gsd = purebred composite.









Old fashioned, big all over black and tan type crossed to the modern working type may “throwback” to pre-split common ancestry, _both ways_ (outcross _and_ backcross). Long lost genetic sequences, some advantageous, some deleterious, lurk behind every modern gsd type, waiting for the opportunity to express from both sides of a ped again. And ultimately, if we’re on the hunt for prey drive, we’ll find at least one “best” in the resulting offspring.

Perhaps I've been dealt so much prey drive with other breeds that I take it for granted, but I doubt it...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

mycobraracr said:


> I thought that's who she was referring to, thank you. I've looked at him before, for Kimber. I like him. He works a lot like my wife's male, but my wife's dog isn't compatible. At least for Kimber.



???? Komet is DM clear..... as was his sister, Kira, and several of their progeny are also clears......

He had some prostrate issues a while ago.....not sure about the swimmers.....as soon as the repro vet is back up and running, will get another evaluation...used a son of his littermate Kira who produced very well....and there are a couple of her sons coming up who might be worthwhile in the future ....also there is a young male from him out there too....who knows if some of these will end up titled and with all health clearances - people say they are going to do things, but alot don't finish what they start...so far he has had a couple certify with hips (OFA Goods/SV a normals) and some BHs....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Conell seemed to produce will with Amira. Would be interesting to see him paired with her sister!


I know! He's on my list . I spoke to Chris the other day. She said it's one of the nicest litters she's had. It makes Conell tempting, but I also don't want to copy her litter. I'm weird haha. 



wolfstraum said:


> ???? Komet is DM clear..... as was his sister, Kira, and several of their progeny are also clears......
> 
> He had some prostrate issues a while ago.....not sure about the swimmers.....as soon as the repro vet is back up and running, will get another evaluation...used a son of his littermate Kira who produced very well....and there are a couple of her sons coming up who might be worthwhile in the future ....also there is a young male from him out there too....who knows if some of these will end up titled and with all health clearances - people say they are going to do things, but alot don't finish what they start...so far he has had a couple certify with hips (OFA Goods/SV a normals) and some BHs....


Too bad about Komets prostate. I may be reaching out to you to get more info on him. I generally try and get a list of males I like together, then narrow it down. I'm also waiting on the DM resuts for the female I'm using. All her siblings that have been tested have been clear, but you never know. She is OFA excellent hips, good elbows.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Is anyone else as excited as I am about a T17/Wolfstraum collaboration? Lol. 
@mycobraracr has Xander been bred, or will he be?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Is anyone else as excited as I am about a T17/Wolfstraum collaboration? Lol.
> @mycobraracr has Xander been bred, or will he be?


lol, I just thought about this last night - oh boy Sabi’s dream litter!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Fodder said:


> lol, I just thought about this last night - oh boy Sabi’s dream litter!!


Well really. I mean that T17 a litter AND a Wolfstraum stud? That would be like finding myself a 4 leaf clover! 
Lol. I'm just fantasizing. But it sure is fun to think about. Sigh. People should stop teasing me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

We just x-rayed 2 youngsters this morning.....a Komet daughter - vet said probably nicest hips she has seen on a GSD - 19 month old owned by mnm (a full sister last year went OFA Good).....other is a Kira daughter from my P litter - 3rd to get x-rays....almost as nice, the other 2 were 'a' normal male Puma, and Pfalcon - who was OFA Good at 20 months (misremembered BD) and OFA Fair at 26 months.....???? - x rays did not look dissimilar???? will be redoing 'a' stamp probably....and an R pup already 'a' stamped normal a few months back by Komet. Pretty happy with his production! We are all doing happy dance right now!

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> We just x-rayed 2 youngsters this morning.....a Komet daughter - vet said probably nicest hips she has seen on a GSD - 19 month old owned by mnm (a full sister last year went OFA Good).....other is a Kira daughter from my P litter - 3rd to get x-rays....almost as nice, the other 2 were 'a' normal male Puma, and Pfalcon - who was OFA Good at 20 months (misremembered BD) and OFA Fair at 26 months.....???? - x rays did not look dissimilar???? will be redoing 'a' stamp probably....and an R pup already 'a' stamped normal a few months back by Komet. Pretty happy with his production! We are all doing happy dance right now!
> 
> Lee


Komet is a Csabre son is he not? 
I feel like a stalker sometimes. Lol. I watch dogs I don't own, catalogue facts. 
Trying to learn. Studying pedigrees, watching litters grow.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> Komet is a Csabre son is he not?
> I feel like a stalker sometimes. Lol. I watch dogs I don't own, catalogue facts.
> Trying to learn. Studying pedigrees, watching litters grow.


ght

Komet is a Csabre son, sire of Neon who got her hips done today....the other, Porsche, is a daughter of Kira, littermate to Komet ....so they are 'first cousins"  Both are going to SV for ratings, and to OFA as well. 

I do the same thing - study pedigrees, talk to people about dogs they own, see, train with, study pedigrees some more....find common qualities and behaviors and parallel pedigrees.....same as people do with TB racehorses.

Lee


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## Sabre's Mom (Jul 27, 2018)

wolfstraum said:


> ....also there is a young male from him out there too....who knows if some of these will end up titled and with all health clearances - people say they are going to do things, but alot don't finish what they start...so far he has had a couple certify with hips (OFA Goods/SV a normals) and some BHs....


My 20 month old "Little Dude" was sired by Komet - he may be the "young male". I've been training him in IGP, and my original plan was to put a BH on him this Spring, and an IGP1 in the Fall. But with Covid, things kind of got derailed. Still planning to put the BH on him this year, but may wait until next year for the IGP1. 
This guy is my first venture into sport, and we are learning together. He's what I wanted, I see a lot that I like, but I don't think I there is a "perfect" dog. To me, every dog opens my eyes to some strengths and weaknesses that I hadn't thought of before.




wolfstraum said:


> ....and an R pup already 'a' stamped normal a few months back by Komet.


He may be the R pup that Lee was referring to who already got his A stamp. I had his x-rays done at 15 months because I wanted to see how he looked and if his growth plates were closed before we did too much. 
He should be DM clear by parentage. I still plan to test for DM and MDR1, but this just hasn't been a priority. His dam was clear on both.

Sheri


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> I know! He's on my list . I spoke to Chris the other day. She said it's one of the nicest litters she's had. It makes Conell tempting, but I also don't want to copy her litter. I'm weird haha.


I love Eris, and she reproduced so well...still going strong at her age too. I see her progeny giving what she has over the years...and then some. But of course there are many stud dogs available, can't wait to hear the pairing you decide upon.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Berno,
It is much more complex than the way you perceive dogs. Prey drive is simply one trait.GSDs possess many other traits such as defensive aggression, active aggression, frustration aggression, dominance, etc. Thresholds and nerves are traits. Knowing if certain traits are genetically dominant is a factor. There is possessiveness, handler/helper hardness, pain sensitivity, bidability, etc.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I've got several Komet pups out there that were supposed to be titled. Still waiting on them to be, and one just a year old. One male got his BH a year and a half ago, and went for his IPG last fall, but just missed passing. He is pretty strong in his work and drives, with a first time handler, single mother with three small kids. Hopefully they can get back at it now and title this fall. Really looking forward to all the Komet working pups to title. Could be some great breeding opportunities with them.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mnm said:


> I've got several Komet pups out there that were supposed to be titled. Still waiting on them to be, and one just a year old. One male got his BH a year and a half ago, and went for his IPG last fall, but just missed passing. He is pretty strong in his work and drives, with a first time handler, single mother with three small kids. Hopefully they can get back at it now and title this fall. Really looking forward to all the Komet working pups to title. Could be some great breeding opportunities with them.


Since you are a breeder as well what is your process in hunting for a stud?


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Pedigree - health clearances, titles, what they are producing??. Needs to match up well with my female, complement and improve as needed. Lee's my pedigree expert, so that's one of the first things I look at. Plus my lines mostly go to her lines, and she knows them inside out.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mnm said:


> Pedigree - health clearances, titles, what they are producing??. Needs to match up well with my female, complement and improve as needed. Lee's my pedigree expert, so that's one of the first things I look at. Plus my lines mostly go to her lines, and she knows them inside out.


Do you ever second guess yourself, or worry that maybe you did not make the correct decision?

Do any of you ever make mistakes? Lol.
I spoke to a breeder years ago who said she would never breed a particular bitch again, because she produced, exact words, "the united nations of puppies". She said the whole litter was all over the place in every respect. I found it amusing but I am positive she did not. I know that would be frustrating and disheartening.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A


Sabis mom said:


> Do you ever second guess yourself, or worry that maybe you did not make the correct decision?
> 
> Do any of you ever make mistakes? Lol.
> I spoke to a breeder years ago who said she would never breed a particular bitch again, because she produced, exact words, "the united nations of puppies". She said the whole litter was all over the place in every respect. I found it amusing but I am positive she did not. I know that would be frustrating and disheartening.


After the car wreck I had in 2011, I had an import female (brought in at 8 weeks old)....that lived with a client and co-owner.....I bred her to a male I was not overly thrilled about due to her priorities rather than my choice.....all the pups went to homes where owners are happy with them....I did not get what I wanted out of the litter ability wise. I have had worse mistakes in picking owners of pups LOL

Lee


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Berno,
> It is much more complex than the way you perceive dogs.


 I find it's best to keep things as simple as possible. We aren't talking about founding a new bloodline here, so I'm not thinking in terms of "foundation stud." Outcross is an opportunity to shore things up for the long haul with one good agile athletic genetically sound get. Consistency comes with backcrossing. Of course I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone else how or what to breed. Just my $0.02


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