# which lines for herding?



## sleachy (Aug 10, 2001)

There is much (heated) discussion about which lines are better at what. If you were searching for a sheep herding dog, which lines would you look at?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Border collie.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I would look at pedigrees to see where the HGH titles come in to play at. My guys are working (West German and DDR with a splash of Czech) and German Show line. All of them have done wonderfully. The German Show lines go back to Kirschental lines. 

Kirschental are my fave German Show lines for both structure and temperament (limited experience- admittedly).

There is a DDR female in FL that was imported to the US a year or so ago. The day before she flew in was her last day to work a herd in Germany. Those are the dogs to look for even though I do not think the female I am thinking of has an HGH.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: EmooreBorder collie.


Unfortunately the ability/nerve/temperament to herd is being lost in this breed as it's popularity in the show ring increases.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: sleachyThere is much (heated) discussion about which lines are better at what. If you were searching for a sheep herding dog, which lines would you look at?


Kirschental. My breeder owns a female who came from Karl Fuller. She was the HGH Siegerin and is 12 times HGH. There are a few more of his dogs in North America that have HGH titles. He is still breeding and using his dogs for herding every day. I think he mixes in German show lines and his dogs also train and title in SchH, they look like show lines and do well in shows, but Karl is a shepherd and that's the root of his breeding program. We're not talking about moving three sheep around some cones, we're talking about tending a flock 1200 strong.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:There is a DDR female in FL that was imported to the US a year or so ago. The day before she flew in was her last day to work a herd in Germany.


Ooooh I think I know who you're talking about... http://www.vomlinmarc.com/html/ddr_german_shepherd_eicke.html Was it this one? If not, who?









I would look at a line that had a lot of HGH's or other herding titles or dogs that are actively working stock. I agree with Lies on the line recommendation. I know Alpenhof kennels has dogs from this kennel with HGH titles.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

From a pedigree standpoint you would want to look for the HGH and herding titles in the background. But sheep herding is a bit harder to come by as it used to be. 

There would be certain characteristics that you can also look for from the actual dogs in the pedigree if they do not have herding titles. I will admit I do not have a whole lot of experience but from my perspective and what I have learned they will need:

* Correct working structure (working in this sense is the job not the lines). You need a sound dog to work sheep on a regular basis. Tight feet, correct angles (shoulder, pastern, croup and hind) to provide the effortless gait.

* Health - rather obvious that a sick dog will not be able to work as long/effectively as a healthy dog

* bidability - a dog that can work and is intune *with* his/her handler

* temperament/clearheadedness - the dog must have a solid temperament to be able to take the stress of working a large flock. Dog must also have the ability to make their own choices in certain circumstances.

* nerve/courage- the dog has to have the strong nerves to deal with the sheer numbers of the flock through all times of weather and distractions. They also need the nerve/courage to handle the challenges of a thick headed ram that might challenge the dog or other predator that might try to harm the flock, dog or shepherd

These are simply my observations in learning more about how the GSD was intended to work the larger flocks of sheep as they do in their homeland. The same basic principles would apply for "recreational" herding as well.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote:There is a DDR female in FL that was imported to the US a year or so ago. The day before she flew in was her last day to work a herd in Germany.
> ...


Yep. I was drawing a blank on her name and was too lazy to look it up!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: EmooreBorder collie.
> ...


That is why you go to a "rancher" or someone that competes in herding trials that breeds dogs because they WORK. (they are often not registered at all and if they are registered in the USA it is with the ABCA, NOT AKC.) Rather than going to someone that is breeding AKC BCs because they are "pretty".


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Yep!







I was going to mention that but I figured it is a GSD board soooooo.....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DianaM said:


> > Quote:
> > I would look at a line that had a lot of HGH's or other herding titles or dogs that are actively working stock. I agree with Lies on the line recommendation. I know Alpenhof kennels has dogs from this kennel with HGH titles.
> 
> 
> Yes, Alpenhof, Alta-Tollhaus, and Traumhof are the big Kirschental line breeders in north america. My breeder does not herd herself, I think there are only one or two places in the USA that do HGH herding, namely because the amount of livestock and space required, unfortunately. There was an article on it w/ an interview from Karl Fuller in one of the recent WDA issues.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Ulf Kinzel (sp?) and his kennel Quasliner Moor (again sp?) out on the east coast. Only real HGH trainer/club in the US and he breeds and trains his own dogs for HGH herding and has been for many years.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

White Clover Sheep Farm 

Ulf Kintzel's website.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I third Ulf Kintzel,,I have seen some of his dogs and they are awesome herders,,of course he's a great trainer I hear as well)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I love the photo gallery on that site!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

What about Shelly in British Columbia, Canada

http://tehillahgermanshepherds.com/


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I love Shelley's dogs!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

There are several American Show Lines that do well at herding. Susan Sullivan of CT is an AKC herdiing judge and a breeder. She has owned/bred several Herding Champions, and had at leaast 2 HGH dogs. Diane Wright of MI has trained at least 2 herding champions. The Roots out in CA have bred several generations of show/herding dogs. 

Although I am not breeding right now, my dogs have done well in herding as well. All American Show Lines.


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## kootenay girl (May 28, 2007)

I had a young Kirschental female that worked very well with sheep; a well known herding judge (John Carter) passing through our area (West Kootenays, British Columbia), remarked "Ripley" was one on the best GSD's he has seen working sheep. Unfortunately, we tragically lost her to a suspected heart attack at three years of age. It's been a year, and I still miss her...

The dog we have now, Mojo, has just started his herding apprenticeship and although his lines (Igor vd Staelduinhoeve x Okette v Kraftwerk) have little to no herding titles, per se, he is doing remarkably well. So with what little experience I have had with GSD's and herding, I completely agree with Amaruq; I think herding can suit most GSD's if they have the necessary attributes to do the work!

Happy herding, everyone!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I had 5 SAR dogs that all did well herding. Chimo went out at nearly 10 years for his first time on sheep. He looked like a three year old.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ellen Nichelson(sp) is one of the foremost experts in herding in the US along with Ulf. Ellen knows the bloodlines of all the great herding dogs into the 20's and 30's. Her mentor, Manfred Heyne(sp), is one of the great herding breeders and competitors in German history.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As an aside, whenever I get or keep a puppy, at 5 to 8 months I take them over to a herding instructor that lives 10 miles from me. She always marvels at how well my pups do with sheep no matter who I bring. One of the reasons is that almost all of my dogs go through either Marko vom Cellerland,72 World Seiger, who is out of a HGH parent, or Held v Ritterberg, who is out of Burga Haus Himpel, lines from DDR that also have strong herding background.


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## CWhite (Dec 8, 2004)

I'm sure you can go to an IRISH FARMER and find one that's still herding.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My Schh3 DDR female Kyra would have done well and titled had there been opportunity.....we did a good bit of training with a BC breeder who was very very into competitive herding - unfortunately she was tragically killed so we never got to attempt any kind of title....her daughter was tested by Shelly in Canada, got the HIC and very positive reviews....so Lord G's - DDR line seems to carry potential

Lee


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## Yvette (Jan 29, 2001)

> Quote: Andaka
> There are several American Show Lines that do well at herding. Susan Sullivan of CT is an AKC herdiing judge and a breeder.


Sue comes to MA to train. Right close by to me.







Very nice lady & very sweet dogs! I like watching her EZ work.
She also was the one to help train Dallas "Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes". She also trains his pronegy as well.









Dallas looked funny on the ring (to me), but to see him work! That was a treat!


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## BCGSD (Nov 19, 2005)

Unless one herds >100 sheep and has to move them from one pasture to another regularly as a living, herding in the U.S. does not require a GSD with herding lines. 
Many GSDs from all the lines can herd given a proper relationship w/the handler and some training. BYB, Amlines, German show, working, DDR etc., they can all herd in the U.S. The truth is the way it is practiced in the states, it is not that demanding in terms of needing specific lines.
The most important trait you need, irrespective of lines, is a dog with self-control. 
Ironically, a lot of the working lines, because of the breeding for drive, drive, drive and not much else have lost too much self-control, and totally rely on the handler for control over their drives.
DDR dogs often do well in herding because they are soft to the handler. Soft is too often considered a negative w/schutzhund enthusiasts though soft to the handler is not necessarily a soft dog in general. Considered in a positive light, soft to the handler is a dog that is sensitive to voice commands from the handler without any physical or leash corrections. Such a trait is extremely useful for any type of herding.
Even more important than lines is pure exposure. Often GSDs just don't see sheep often enough. Its like dogs getting used to cats. A dog that lives on a farm and sees sheep everyday will be 100x a better herder than one that sees sheep once a month.


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## kootenay girl (May 28, 2007)

"The most important trait you need, irrespective of lines, is a dog with self-control. Ironically, a lot of the working lines, because of the breeding for drive, drive, drive and not much else have lost too much self-control, and totally rely on the handler for control over their drives".

Truer words were never spoken; self-control is the biggest obstacle to Mojo as we speak, and I am often over-handling to compensate for his "eagerness"! We begin our session with exercises that foster self control when in still contact with the flock and if he does well, his reward is moving the stock around the arena's circumference.

I'll never forget John Carter's advice who said the best exercises involve those where the flock hardly moves and any stock movement is slow and relaxed-the dog does all the work, i.e. coming to heel, lying down for extended periods, getting back, etc.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Great post!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> ...


Yeah, that's where my dad bought his good cowdog. . . rancher in the next county who had cattle and bred his cowdogs. Lad wasn't registered with any registry but man that dog could work!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BCGSD
> 
> DDR dogs often do well in herding because they are *soft to the handler. *



















Sorry I couldn't resist. My 3/4DDR 1/4 Czech girl is the LAST dog you would call "soft to the handler". (Unfortunately.)
(Though I know that is supposedly trait of the DDR lines.)


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