# Intact vs. Neutered?



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Has anyone noticed a difference between intact vs. neutered dogs? Or dogs neutered after 18 months? Decrease in drive, etc with loss of hormone? New pup won't be neutered until at LEAST 18 months, but flirting with the idea of skipping it altogether 

Just to note, I have NO desire to breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Seldom if ever see neutered dogs in the sport. I have not had any problem leaving my male intact, he'll be four soon(and I have no desire to breed either!)


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

No breeding here either & my soon to be 3 year old male is intact. This is my first dog so I have nothing to compare him against other than neutered males in classes we have attended. 

The only thing that really stands out to me is alot of neutered males seem to not care for my boy. My trainer said she has seen that often with neutered males against intact ones. Not sure if there's any weight in the statment.

I think the decision to neuter is a personal choice...alot of things to consider.

***
Edit:

Sorry, I didn't realize your question was in the Schutzhund section. I read posts by "new posts"


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Neutered males I work tend to be able take less pressure, longer to build confidence in an exercise, lower desirable aggression, higher likelihood they will slip into defense and avoidance. Neutered females don't seen to follow any pattern to me.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have a female who was spayed a few months ago - no change in behaviour on or off the field. 

She is still a strong female and possesses all the characteristics (good and bad... lol) that she had before being spayed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have only worked one male and he is intact. 

I noticed when I spayed Treue she lost her "edge" in protection. She was 4.5. Spaying Vala didn't change anything, but she was 7 when she was spayed. I didn't notice any change in Nike, but she was retired at that point. So, my experience with females has been mixed. 

Personally I would only neuter a male if there became a medical reason to do so. I would leave a female intact at least through her early years of training and titling, but would eventually spay because I do worry about Pyometria.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I have never noticed a change in my females after spaying, except that I had one that used to fight with my older female when she was in heat--that stopped after spaying her.

I haven't ever worked a male in SchH, but in general I find that intact males have a bit more intensity than neutered males. Neutering doesn't seem to affect prey drive, but intact males seem to have an edge in their defense & fight drive. Neutered males are a bit easier to manage in the day-to-day for a pet owner, and they are definitely easier to groom.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Neutered males I work tend to be able take less pressure, longer to build confidence in an exercise, lower desirable aggression, higher likelihood they will slip into defense and avoidance. Neutered females don't seen to follow any pattern to me.


Let me clarify that I was refering to males neutered before maturity. Males neutered after they have become adults, I'm told, change little. The foster that was neutered seem to become a bit more soft post neuter.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Neutered males are a bit easier to manage in the day-to-day for a pet owner, and *they are definitely easier to groom*.


Freestep can you clarify this statement? 

Do you mean easier for a professional groomer to groom? Or easier for an owner to groom?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I have never noticed a change in my females after spaying, except that I had one that used to fight with my older female when she was in heat--that stopped after spaying her.
> 
> I haven't ever worked a male in SchH, but in general I find that intact males have a bit more intensity than neutered males. Neutering doesn't seem to affect prey drive, but intact males seem to have an edge in their defense & fight drive. Neutered males are a bit easier to manage in the day-to-day for a pet owner, and they are definitely easier to groom.


:thumbup:
Although I don't work my dog in Schutzhund, I'd like to add that as males get older there's many health issues they may come across while intact; we've seen many here in rescue. 

Male intact seniors are prone to testicular cancers, perianal adenomas and prolapses, and they'll have enlarged anus as well. 
It's difficult to cut out a perianal adenoma without losing muscle tone in that area, and of the intact senior dogs we've rescued, almost every single one (male or female) has had to be euthanized due to the high likelihood of some of these issues being malignancies. Even if we could have done surgery to prolong their life a little while, adopters aren't exactly looking for cancer ridden dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

N Smith said:


> Freestep can you clarify this statement?
> 
> Do you mean easier for a professional groomer to groom? Or easier for an owner to groom?


I'm guessing because their are no testicles, so easier for both? I have a long coated, THICK coated mixed dog that is neutered and thank heavens because when I do his sani-trim I am literally just poking my scissors into gobs of fur and cutting (once I get the majority of the hair off, then I clean it up and brush). There's no way I could trim him the same way if he were not neutered. I would have castrated him the first time!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Male intact seniors are prone to testicular cancers, perianal adenomas and prolapses, and they'll have enlarged anus as well.
> It's difficult to cut out a perianal adenoma without losing muscle tone in that area, and of the intact senior dogs we've rescued, almost every single one (male or female) has had to be euthanized due to the high likelihood of some of these issues being malignancies. Even if we could have done surgery to prolong their life a little while, adopters aren't exactly looking for cancer ridden dogs.


Do you see one intact male breed over another affected more?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

No, the ones we've had were, as best I can remember, a Border collie, Golden Retriever, a Golden lab, a Pointer, a Min Pin and some Chihuahuas; there's been a few others but every time we've had an intact senior, and I'm guessing, 10-12yrs., they've had reproductive tract (or mammary) cancers. 
That's not to say spayed/neutered seniors are more 'healthy' per se, but they don't have reproductive tract cancers and their issues were less "severe" if you will, well, less life-threatening. I mean...fixable issues (not malignancies). 

The biggest issue with altered seniors is either cardiac, skeletal or dental, and I'm guessing dental issues can lead to the other issues. 
My (spayed) Libs is going on 11yrs. this spring; I've kept her teeth very clean, and she has no skeletal issues or heart issues :shrug:

Let's just put it this way...any more, when we are asked to take seniors, it's not "do they have bad teeth", it's "are they altered".


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Depends on what you want to do with your dog...

Mines not neutered...I used to love going to dog parks...we go less and less now because I can't trust other males not to react to him (be it neutered or intact). Mostly other intact males, and just dogs with questionable temperaments seem to take issue with other males that are intact. So I don't trust the off-leash environment because if another male tries to dominate my dog or reacts to him, my dog will not take it lying down and then the big bad shepherd becomes the bad guy.

A small minority of dogs at my GSD club are neutered. We have plenty that don't like other males, gets annoying because their owners want the same rights as those of us with friendly males. They like to tell US to get away from their dogs even though THEIR dogs are the problem.

So although some people will tell you that you will have more problems with neutered males...I've seen that intact males are the bigger issue. I'm also not one to neuter my dog just because other dogs react to him...so he'll never be neutered. I've just adjusted my visits and instead of going to the dog park we go to a regular county park where there are much less dogs and due to me having off lead control I can be relaxed there.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> Although I don't work my dog in Schutzhund, I'd like to add that as males get older there's many health issues they may come across while intact; we've seen many here in rescue.
> 
> Male intact seniors are prone to testicular cancers, perianal adenomas and prolapses, and they'll have enlarged anus as well.
> It's difficult to cut out a perianal adenoma without losing muscle tone in that area, and of the intact senior dogs we've rescued, almost every single one (male or female) has had to be euthanized due to the high likelihood of some of these issues being malignancies. Even if we could have done surgery to prolong their life a little while, adopters aren't exactly looking for cancer ridden dogs.


On the flip side, incidence of prostate and bone cancer rise dramatically upon neutering. Current cutting edge science says don't neuter unless there is a medical/pop control need... Prostate & bone cancers are death sentences. Testicular cancer is easily dealt with when caught early, and easy to catch early.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

hunter, I'm not here to debate s/n. 
I'm giving my experiences, and my experience has been, I've not seen any bone cancers, or prostate cancers. I've been at the vet clinic when dogs had issues with prostate and were still intact, in some cases fighting for their lives and losing, and I've seen more than my share of reproductive tract cancers. 

Many folks seem to feel there's nothing wrong with leaving animals intact into their golden years, and I really feel it's irresponsible (of me anyway) to just say "go for it" without adding my experiences.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I'm guessing because their are no testicles, so easier for both? I have a long coated, THICK coated mixed dog that is neutered and thank heavens because when I do his sani-trim I am literally just poking my scissors into gobs of fur and cutting (once I get the majority of the hair off, then I clean it up and brush). There's no way I could trim him the same way if he were not neutered. I would have castrated him the first time!


All of my males have stock coats (Husky, GS and Chi/Pom mix), and I have never had a problem grooming them intact or not, so I just thought it was a wierd statement.

Then I thought, maybe for professional groomers? But then show dogs are always intact, and there doesn't seem to be any issues there. And for my personal dog, he did all his health testing with no sedation, so he would definitely accept a groomer handling. But maybe most intact dogs don't behave at the groomers??

Really I just like grooming my own dogs and I don't find it harder to groom my intact GS vs my other two who were neutered (Husky 6mo, Chi/Pom 2 years)....

So, yeah sorry to go off track - just thought it was a wierd statement LOL


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I could be way off, but that's what came to mind. However I'm talking about trimming these 8 inches of butt fluff, not a stock coated GSD (my GSDs never go to the groomer, just normal bathing and brushing).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

N Smith said:


> Then I thought, maybe for professional groomers?


Freestep IS a professional groomer, so I would assume that's what she meant.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> No, the ones we've had were, as best I can remember, a Border collie, Golden Retriever, a* Golden lab*, a Pointer, a Min Pin and some Chihuahuas


Sorry, I know this is totally off topic...but I can't help myself, since this is a personal pet peeve. There is no such thing as a *Golden *Labrador Retriever. The breed comes in Black, Yellow or Chocolate. The Yellow color can be a pale yellow that is almost white, or it can be a much darker yellow that is golden (or even darker, almost red). But they are ALL Yellow Labrador Retrievers. Not Golden Labrador Retrievers. 

Sorry! Carry on.
Sheilah


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> hunter, I'm not here to debate s/n.
> I'm giving my experiences, and my experience has been, I've not seen any bone cancers, or prostate cancers. I've been at the vet clinic when dogs had issues with prostate and were still intact, in some cases fighting for their lives and losing, and I've seen more than my share of reproductive tract cancers.
> 
> Many folks seem to feel there's nothing wrong with leaving animals intact into their golden years, and I really feel it's irresponsible (of me anyway) to just say "go for it" without adding my experiences.


I think it's fairly safe to assume that a lot of older dogs that end up in shelters are they just because they have health problems. It's like saying there's a lot of sick people in hospitals. Shelters populations are skewed towards dogs with issues (especially on the older side) so it's hardly representative as an average sample.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Overall, more dogs are in shelters. 
It doesn't negate the fact I've seen a lot of cancers _only_ in older dogs with intact reproductive tracts.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This is the Schutzhund forum and the question was about loss of drive in neutered males. The constant sermonizing about testicular cancer and over crowded animal shelters is not relevant to the question. Quite frankly it is pretty annoying as well. 

To the op. We have a Mal in our club that is neutered and is still over the top in drive. However, he is a Mal and not a GSD so it is hard to tell how much less drive he has verses if he was intact.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have only worked one neutured male. As Hunter said, he slipped into defense very easy and really could only work in defense. 

I have the only females in my schH club and they are intact and all the females in my SDA club are intact so I can't help you there. 

As for if it kills drive or not. I don't think there is a way to test that. 

Oh and for what it's worth, every dog I have ever had including child hood dogs have died of cancer and they were all altered. So don't let the fear of cancer change your mind. Think long and hard and decide if an intact dog is something you can handle and be responsible for. Good luck!


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

robk said:


> This is the Schutzhund forum and the question was about loss of drive in neutered males. The constant sermonizing about testicular cancer and over crowded animal shelters is not relevant to the question. Quite frankly it is pretty annoying as well.
> 
> To the op. We have a Mal in our club that is neutered and is still over the top in drive. However, he is a Mal and not a GSD so it is hard to tell how much less drive he has verses if he was intact.


^Good Post! 



mycobraracr said:


> I have only worked one neutured male. As Hunter said, he slipped into defense very easy and really could only work in defense.
> 
> I have the only females in my schH club and they are intact and all the females in my SDA club are intact so I can't help you there.
> 
> ...


I worked a spayed APBT and there was little to no change in her drives and attitude. I feel it actually made her more aggressive in general. 

I currently am working another spayed APBT and it has had no affect on her at all. 

Personally, I will never neuter a male unless medically necessary as I do feel that it changes them, at least in the males that I see on a regular basis. 

Actually, my vet breeds hunting dogs and he does not recommend neutering a male that you plan on working or hunting with!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> ^Good Post!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Gf and I also have an APBT. A neutured male. He does'nt like to work though. We tried, all he likes to do is cuddle and play but mostly cuddle haha. He's a big baby. So all he does now is lay on the couch


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> ^Good Post!
> I worked a spayed APBT and there was little to no change in her drives and attitude. I feel it actually made her more aggressive in general.


Thought totally unrelated to OP's male question, there has been some well accepted research that shows that bitches get more agressive after spaying. The hormone imbalance due to the lack of calming estrogen makes them tend aggressive.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Actually, my vet breeds hunting dogs and he does not recommend neutering a male that you plan on working or hunting with!


My brother (back in Ireland) works and breeds springer spaniels and a few years ago I asked him about neutering/spaying his dogs. He laughed at me.

I didn't ask again.

He only (rarely) breeds his best working females with proven good working males. The Sires owner gets first pick of the litter and the remaining are sold to members of his gun club (for a paltry fee around $100)

He and his club members are into the sport and work their dogs hard. They are proud of their dogs and know each dogs lineage, not so much in what AKC number/how many titles, but more how actually good the lineage was at working prey in the field.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Overall, more dogs are in shelters.
> It doesn't negate the fact I've seen a lot of cancers _only_ in older dogs with intact reproductive tracts.


Exactly, that's what I am saying, nobody sends a healthy (older) dog to a shelter.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Um, yes they do. 
There's _billions_ of reasons why dogs end up in shelters.
Right now more than ever.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Thought totally unrelated to OP's male question, there has been some well accepted research that shows that bitches get more agressive after spaying. The hormone imbalance due to the lack of calming estrogen makes them tend aggressive.


I've seen studies, and basically, they "might" get aggressive, they've noted it with regards to other dogs, not humans, and finally, there's a huge chance of bitch-bitch aggression anyway if left intact, so it's difficult to say if aggression would have been there anyway.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I not only work in the veterinary field, but I happen to work in an emergency practice that also has internal medicine, surgery, and oncology departments. Needless to see, almost every patient we see is geriatric and riddled with problems, usually cancer. And 95% of these patients are intact. So I am not concerned with my intact male being more prone.

Someone else was right. Testicular cancer is an easy fix. As far as anal sac adenocarcinoma - chi's are predisposed, intact or not. As are females, intact or spayed. And even that has a fairly decent outcome. Early detection and removal can give the dog another year+ prognosis. 

Osteosarcoma and prostate cancers are both increased in NEUTERED males. Consider yourself lucky if you've never seen these cancers, because they are heartbreaking. Sudden onset, no great prognosis. Otherwise happy healthy dogs euthanized because of one tumor. 

That rant being out of the way  thank you for the advice everyone. The more I read, the more I think I'm leaning towards staying intact. I have no doubt that I can be responsible, both in monitoring health and keeping my dog away from others - in heat females, for example.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm sorry, I meant to say 95% of the patients we see are NEUTERED. NOT intact. Rarely do we see intact patients anymore, everyone neuters. Yet every geriatric patient we see is riddled with health problems. Probably because, eventually, that's what kills them all. Cancer or organ failure.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

N Smith said:


> Freestep can you clarify this statement?
> 
> Do you mean easier for a professional groomer to groom? Or easier for an owner to groom?





Liesje said:


> I'm guessing because their are no testicles, so easier for both? I have a long coated, THICK coated mixed dog that is neutered and thank heavens because when I do his sani-trim I am literally just poking my scissors into gobs of fur and cutting (once I get the majority of the hair off, then I clean it up and brush). There's no way I could trim him the same way if he were not neutered. I would have castrated him the first time!





N Smith said:


> All of my males have stock coats (Husky, GS and Chi/Pom mix), and I have never had a problem grooming them intact or not, so I just thought it was a wierd statement.
> 
> Then I thought, maybe for professional groomers? But then show dogs are always intact, and there doesn't seem to be any issues there. And for my personal dog, he did all his health testing with no sedation, so he would definitely accept a groomer handling. But maybe most intact dogs don't behave at the groomers??


Yes. The intact dogs that I see are generally more difficult to handle, as a professional groomer. No one around here has intact dogs that are also trained to a high level like a show dog or SchH dog would be--they are generally either backyard breeders, or people who "don't believe" in neutering for whatever reason--but the point is, if they don't *train* their dogs or get them used to grooming at home, they can be monsters on my table. I don't notice much of a change with females unless they are in heat--it's really a pain to groom a bitch in heat. Intact males are, as I mentioned, a little bit stronger, a little bit edgier, a little more likely to fight with me if they don't like something--whereas neutered males are a bit softer and more compliant.

And yes, there is also the matter of testicles getting in the way of certain things! And I hate clipping the testicles. It's difficult to do, the skin is easily irritated, and some dogs are sensitive to it. Usually I just leave the hair if I can get away with it, but if the dog is a total shave down because of mats or whatever, you can't leave a hairy scrotum on an otherwise smooth dog! 

It may or may not be easier for the owner to groom their own dog at home, depending on the relationship between dog and owner. I'm just giving my perspective as a professional groomer.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

Zeus is almost four years old now and will be remaining intact. No difference in behavior. He has tons of drive, generally gets along with all other dogs and displays none of the negative effects the neutering crowd likes to associate with intact males.


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