# Lets create a puppy training sticky



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

In a recent post in another thread @seltzer posted what I believe is an invaluable set of rules/guidelines for new GSD puppy owners, and it seemed like a great idea to create a sticky that we can all point to when the inevitable questions on training come up. IMHO the list is great as is, but the goal here is to come up with a prioritized list of 10-25 general guidelines that all new owners should be aware of, and your expertise and experience is required!

So, please chime in! Imagine you are talking directly to the proud owner of a 3 to 4 month old puppy who needs help, or share the things that helped you the most when raising your puppy. What tips or information would have or did help you the most? Is the list prioritized correctly?

As a starting point I've just included most all of @selzer's post, because the points made above the "Guidelines" list seemed too important to not be included somehow. I have changed some of the language in a couple places to make it more generally applicable, rather than leaving it as stated because it was specific to the situation being discussed in the thread, and took a first stab at ordering. Feel free to add, delete, replace, reorder, or whatever. 




> Puppy training
> 
> Training a puppy requires discipline. Discipline on YOUR part. You have to train and discipline yourself to build the language that your pup can understand. They are creatures of habit. They understand body language better than words, but use words too.*And always use the SAME word to mean the same action, so your puppy can understand.
> 
> ...


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

No training for the first 6 mos.
Endorsed by Ulf Kintzel.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think that is a good idea. It might become the best puppy book ever. And add the thread about the gentler socialization (from Carmspack?)


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> No training for the first 6 mos.


By this you mean besides just basic obedience, or none at all?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> By this you mean besides just basic obedience, or none at all?


Basic manners. Boundaries for safety. 

I don't teach a recall. Puppies naturally follow. I just pla and bond.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I also play and bond for the first six months or so. But I also take them once a week for probably six weeks to a puppy class that does not allow free-for-all. I do the work in the class and only in the class. I try to make it fun and light, playing and bonding. I am there mostly so that the puppies between say 10 and 12 weeks up through 16 -18 weeks, learn to work with me when there are other dogs and people on lead in the vacinity. That is the main reason.

Most of the stuff in my list are management tools as much as training tools. Or maybe leadership tools. Even with a baby puppy, repeating commands doesn't make sense, it is nagging. If I want them in the crate, and I say, "kennel" I give the puppy the opportunity to go into the crate, if they do not, I pick them up and put them in the crate. If they do it the first time, that Good Boy!!! What a good puppy you are! 

These are babies. There is nothing wrong with using some of our bonding time to shape behaviors we want and to eliminate behaviors we do not want. But it is so much more helpful to do by keeping it short and simple and fun. We can make a game out of sitting, out of downing, out of going to one's place, out of looking at my face. Out of moving over to my side and sitting. It is fun for us, it is fun for the puppy, there is praise, and even treats involved. There is little stress. We are not trying to get a puppy to the point of a CGC or a title by six months. Just some foundations that the puppy can learn painlessly. 

But yes, serious training can happen after the dog is older. I have a buddy who does no training until 10 months and then puts a prong on the dog and has them obedience trained within a week. It works for him. And then there is Ramona... But I think I made a thread about that day at training.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I think I'm sensing a new #1 for the list!

The more I think about this, the more I realize that this key element is either missing or grossly understated in most training materials. The one thing that true animal lovers do naturally and effortlessly is learn to communicate with the animal! It's easy to take that for granted, and when I'm talking to people in person or online, it's often a given in my mind...and that's a mistake! The number one task for any new dog owner is to learn to communicate with their dog/puppy. And you can't do that without thoughtful observation and interaction, or without bonding and building trust.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Basic manners. Boundaries for safety.
> 
> I don't teach a recall. Puppies naturally follow. I just pla and bond.


Yes! You should be able to teach them what their pack members would have taught them; respect and allowed a certain amount of freedom. 
I don't understand why we accept the landshark behavior while they would never be able to pull that off with sane adult dogs.
OK, back to the sticky-topic but many struggle with the biting so it should be in there.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Yes! You should be able to teach them what their pack members would have taught them; respect and allowed a certain amount of freedom.
> I don't understand why we accept the landshark behavior while they would never be able to pull that off with sane adult dogs.
> OK, back to the sticky-topic but many struggle with the biting so it should be in there.


I agree. So far I've made a note to add:

Bonding and communication 
Potty training
Socialization 2.0
LandSharks 

Am I alone in finding it extremely ironic that the first element of training is don't? > I love it!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

*Medical Procedures*

I think that this is a GREAT idea Tim! I like the edits that you made to Selzer's post too. I've got three suggestions. First, much of what's been described applies to newly adopted, adult dogs too. So, is there a way to include that suggestion at the beginning? Second, crate training and/or the two week shutdown (for adult adoptees) are both approaches that new owners should know about. No need to recreate the wheel, so could you/we include links to prior discussion of these points? Finally, I teach all new puppies/dogs what I call "Medical Procedures." What follows is a description of what I do, lifted from a post that I made on another thread. Feel free to edit, as necessary, if you decide to keep/use it. 

Aly

_As soon as a puppy/yearling/adult comes home, we start learning "medical procedures." This includes:

1. Teaching them to "Stand" on command for an exam (which basically consists of running my hands all over their bodies). Also useful when you need to dry off wet dogs quickly. 

2. Teaching them to let me mess with their paws (e.g., starting with gentle paw massages, then sticking my fingers between their toes, building up to tapping their nails with a human nail file, and eventually clipping their nails).

3. Teaching them to "give me your paw" (which I then wipe with a dry towel) and "give me the other one." 

4. Teaching them to let me mess about with their ears (e.g., starting with gentle massages at the base of the ear, slowly working up to sticking the tip of my finger and, later, cotton balls in their ears, to gentle cleanings).

5. Teaching them to open their mouths on command ("Open Wide"), let me mess about with their teeth and eventually brush their teeth.

6. Teach them to stand for "Booty Call," (yes, that's what I call it) which is basically letting me wipe their ...ah...nether regions with a soft cloth. Eventually this culminates in teaching them to let me take their temps without protest (Have your vet show you how to take a temp --- very helpful in emergencies).

7. Teaching them to lie on their sides for x-rays, grooming, etc. ("Over")

Basically, training what I call "medical procedures" is just getting the puppy/dog ready for whatever I/vet staff may need to do as part of a regular exam or in an emergency. Easy to do (5 minutes a day), it's fun and, as treats are involved, the dogs enjoy it as well. 

We don't get there in one session. We do it over a period of months. Unless, there's some medical reason to skip steps (e.g., an ear infection), I keep it light, pleasant and brief, so the pup/dog has no reason to get defensive. 

Small steps...._


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> Basically, training what I call "medical procedures" is just getting the puppy/dog ready for whatever I/vet staff may need to do as part of a regular exam or in an emergency. Easy to do (5 minutes a day), it's fun and, as treats are involved, the dogs enjoy it as well.


Thanks for this @Aly. I think the "medical procedures" bit fits in with the bonding and communication section. It makes good sense to get your dog or puppy comfortable with these, and it is building trust not training. I'll add it.

On the other items you mentioned you're right, the process is much the same for adult dogs or puppies, so maybe a more appropriate title for the sticky would just be "training fundamentals" or something similar...good stuff!


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

I do think the sticky idea is great!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> Imagine you are talking directly to the proud owner of a 3 to 4 month old puppy who needs help, or share the things that helped you the most when raising your puppy.


Forgot to answer your question in my previous post, so here goes. What follows are more philosophical than prescriptive, but I've found them to extend beyond raising/training dogs. The very best advice I ever got was: "Deal with the dog in front of you." At base, it's less about the breed or even the line and more about what the puppy/dog is _actually doing_. Often, in our excitement about having finally gotten the [fill in the blank] that we longed and saved for, we manage to forget that it's a _ puppy _--- with basic needs for structure, limits and, most of all, management. 

Second best piece of advice that I've ever gotten came from my childhood horse trainer: "What are _you _doing?" The unsubtle message was that if things weren't going the way that I wanted/expected, to look honestly at what *I* was doing (or not doing) first and to change _my behavior and expectations_ accordingly. 

Third best piece of advice came from the same trainer: "Reward the try." Puppy may not give you a perfectly square sit on the first or even second effort, but if that little bum hovers even close to the ground, treat it like the gift it is.

Aly


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> I think I'm sensing a new #1 for the list!
> 
> The more I think about this, the more I realize that this key element is either missing or grossly understated in most training materials. The one thing that true animal lovers do naturally and effortlessly is learn to communicate with the animal! It's easy to take that for granted, and when I'm talking to people in person or online, it's often a given in my mind...and that's a mistake! The number one task for any new dog owner is to learn to communicate with their dog/puppy. And you can't do that without thoughtful observation and interaction, or without bonding and building trust.


Maybe because I have a pack of dogs it is different, but my method of bonding(trust)/learning to communicate with the individual dog is through training. Not stiff, training, but those games I was talking about. 

Dogs gain confidence and build their trust in us by being set up to succeed and being praised for succeeding. So by following the rules (which minimize confusion/make it easier for our dog to learn stuff), we build trust, we build the bond. The dog knows what to expect, he likes stability, he trusts us when we are not unpredictable. And the more often we succeed in training, however minor, the more the dog/human bond grows. 

I think of training itself as building a language between you and the dog. 

Another thing I would put on my original list, is the GENTLE command. Some use EASY or NICE. We train a word with treats, by begining very simple with the palm open to get the dog to take the treat gently. We say the word gently when we offer, "Gentle." and we say it again when we praise the gentle, "Good Gentle." We say it every time we play this game, and then we make it harder by putting a thumb over the treat. We take time, we say the word. We make that perfect, and then we close the fist, and remind, "Gentle" Licking gets the fist open and a Good Gentle. Biting gets the fist and treat into the pocket and a half-hour or so break. When this is perfect and we have taken time with it, we move the treat to the thumb and index finger (the most dangerous way to offer a treat). We remind with Gentle. We praise the Gentle. And when it is perfect, we start using the term Gentle in other situations. "Gentle with my fingers." Gentle with the baby. And so on. We train the dog to be careful with its teeth.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> Maybe because I have a pack of dogs it is different, but my method of bonding(trust)/learning to communicate with the individual dog is through training. Not stiff, training, but those games I was talking about.
> 
> Dogs gain confidence and build their trust in us by being set up to succeed and being praised for succeeding. So by following the rules (which minimize confusion/make it easier for our dog to learn stuff), we build trust, we build the bond. The dog knows what to expect, he likes stability, he trusts us when we are not unpredictable. And the more often we succeed in training, however minor, the more the dog/human bond grows.
> 
> ...


Let me begin by saying thanks for making this so easy! And yes, that is sarcasm LOL! I couldn't agree with you more though, and I am now struggling with the desire for a concisely stated list, versus a more comprehensive list plus reasonably short explanations.

One thing a sticky has going for it that a book or pamphlet doesn't is the ability to link other threads on a given topic for further reading/explanation. That is an acceptable practice in a sticky right? Sure a book or pamphlet can include further reading links too, but who ever uses them besides nerds like myself?

Right now the biggest hurdle I'm facing is how to "concisely" include everything that goes into bonding and communication learning. It really includes a wide range of things, touching/handling as @Aly mentioned, avoiding all but "basic manners and safety rules" as @cloudpump mentioned, and how you can and should include behaviour shaping - both to encourage desired behaviours, and to discourage unwanted behaviors - as you've mentioned. It's a concept that comes easily to an animal person, but not so much to those less exposed or used to dealing with animals so closely. Good info, but I'm not sure how to exactly convey it sufficiently in a concise manner.

I do think it's of CRITICAL importance to emphasize the advantages of waiting for any kind of "formal" training, especially for new dog people or puppy owners, and making sure they understand what REASONABLE expectations for a puppy are! Most people run into problems because they see how smart and responsive their puppy is at home, then think the puppy is being bad by not performing equally well at the park or home depot, or off leash. **** puppy, he knows what I'm saying and is just being bad. We know better, they don't. How to convey that concisely is the mystery we're trying to unravel...

But every comment here is going to make the finished product better...and, of course, make my job harder LOL, So keep them coming! I am hoping that some novice dog owners and or new GSD folks will chime in with comments on what would or did help you the most in raising your puppies...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe we do puppy training all wrong. Maybe it should be more like a 12 step program:

Hello, my name is Sue, I have a puppy. 

Hi Sue!!!

At today's meeting, we are going to focus on the fourth step, keeping calm when your puppy has destroyed something irreplaceable, staying calm when your puppy is barking at other dogs, staying calm when your puppy was charged by another dog, staying calm when your potty-trained dog just made a mess in the living room.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> Maybe we do puppy training all wrong. Maybe it should be more like a 12 step program:
> 
> Hello, my name is Sue, I have a puppy.
> 
> ...


LOL...can you say OHM....


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think of training itself as building a language between you and the dog. .


This is SO true! Among the important (life) lessons that I've learned is that _everything _you do with your puppy/dog is training. Not because you're prepping for formal obedience/IPO/whatever competition, but because you're building a relationship --- a common language, if you will.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> LOL...can you say OHM....



Yes I can...but sometimes, I say "Bourbon!" >


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Aly said:


> Yes I can...but sometimes, I say "Bourbon!" >


LOL! I call and raise you one! >


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

On a more serious note, the gentleman @cloudpump mentioned, Ulf Kintzel, is a very interesting guy. 

Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm still hoping some first time dog owners, or new to GSD owners, will contribute thoughts on what training advice helped YOU most in raising your puppy! Chime in!


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

Still got my puppy to work on. One of the first things I was doing was teaching "sit." When outside, I didn't want her getting crazy about people, or animals, or vehicles going by, so I would get her in a sit next to me and we'd watch. Some praise and treats and easy pets. It's worked out well because if she's being a bit jumpy or annoying indoors, we can nudge her away and say "sit" and she'll sit and I don't even need to give her treats. However, during training I will give treats for "sit"

I really like the "gentle" command that Seltzer suggested. I think I'll incorporate that into my training. I should really just keep my treat bag on me at all times so I can reward all good behavior at any time

I also agree with keeping training short. I tried to do decent sessions, but found out quickly that you can't do that, so I only do a few reps and then end reward with play

I would add that when training, make sure you end on a high note. My pup is pretty good at sit, so I end on sit, make her wait, then treat and praise. If you end on a command they're not strong with, it can be discouraging to them

I don't agree with no training up to 10mos. Sounds like a recipe for disaster having a pup that won't listen to anything. Or is the idea that they will actually learn faster? Still, if I can get my pup to sit and calm down at 4mos, why wait? I'm sure it works for some, but doesn't make sense to me


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

There are things I did right and am so glad I did: crate train, hand feed, bite inhibition/redirection, exercise, luring with food and play. 

Looking back I think the biggest misconception I had, and I think it may be a common misconception, around the age of 5-7 months was how well I had taught my puppy and how established our relationship was. They are brilliant puppies, big puppies, alert puppies, and I let that fool me into false understanding. This is my first dog. I have read a GSD may not be the right dog for a novice, that is probably very true, I wish I knew why/how. I feel like I have taken a crash course, it takes time and effort to say the least. 

Learning to build a relationship, learning how to effectively communicate, learning how to teach. Finding a way to motivate your pup. 

Slow down, expect less, play more, set a good foundation and you will see it blossom at 8-9 months. Had one simple thing not been pointed out to me a couple months ago, I don't think I would be calling my pup at 9 months old a blossom. ;P

I established a really good playful relationship with my pup, now I am learning to use that to motivate and teach. It is powerful. 




selzer said:


> Dogs gain confidence and build their trust in us by being set up to succeed and being praised for succeeding. So by following the rules (which minimize confusion/make it easier for our dog to learn stuff), we build trust, we build the bond. The dog knows what to expect, he likes stability, he trusts us when we are not unpredictable. And the more often we succeed in training, however minor, the more the dog/human bond grows. *I think of training itself as building a language between you and the dog.*


If you can read this and truly understand it, even through trial error, it can take you really far. I hope it carries us through adolescence and adulthood. Fingers crossed LOL 

HTH


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Apex1 said:


> There are things I did right and am so glad I did: crate train, hand feed, bite inhibition/redirection, exercise, luring with food and play.
> 
> Looking back I think the biggest misconception I had, and I think it may be a common misconception, around the age of 5-7 months was how well I had taught my puppy and how established our relationship was. They are brilliant puppies, big puppies, alert puppies, and I let that fool me into false understanding. This is my first dog. I have read a GSD may not be the right dog for a novice, that is probably very true, I wish I knew why/how. I feel like I have taken a crash course, it takes time and effort to say the least.
> 
> ...


The biggest error a novice person can make is believing that a gsd is not a first time dog. If you put the effort in, any breed is fine. It's all about what you put in to learning.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

About the first dog being a GSD thing. My first dog was a GSD. Oh we had a beagle mix before I was ten, and a schnauzer for a few years when I was about 11 and then there was Princess who lived 14 years and was shepherd/hound Mix. And Pippy. Pip was an English Setter and my Dad's dog, and he was the only one that was supposed to train him. But none of these dogs were my dogs. 

My first dog, after I moved out was a GSD. And he was a mess. Probably 98% my fault. I had him for seven years. He taught me more about dogs than most of the others put together. Not completely, though. Because he wasn't soft at all. When I had my first softy I learned a whole lot more. 

All the Pippys in the world will not make you good with GSDs. And while some people do have issues with easy dogs. Easy dogs rarely teach you a lot about dog training. And if we base everything we know about dog training on that first GSD we had, and the next is not learning the same way, so we think that dog is defective, than we haven't learned very much at all. 

GSDs are individuals. Freely I admit, that I have pretty much stayed within the Show Lines. American and mostly German. There were pet lines in Frodo and some working lines, mostly before the major split though. And Rushie, well, the black sire had American/Pet/WLs and the dam was all WGSL. But by and far, I have stuck with Show line dogs. And they are different. 

But, we learn from our mistakes, and challenges, and the dogs with issues so much more than the little sweetie that practically taught herself how to walk on a lead and to stay close, and all that stuff. 

When people say, this is my first dog, my initial reaction is to shudder. Because with our first dog, some of us, run out and get books, and look at u-tubes, and try to listen to everything everybody says about training and socializing the puppy. 

It's like taking a 5 year old kid to Kindergarten and having them switch classes, learning Trigonometry, and than grammar, then take them into the gym to do figure skating, then French class before Lunch. After lunch, pottery in artclass, geography, history, science, and spelling. I am not saying kids can't do some of this stuff. My sister's kids were learning some French in pre-school/kindergarten, but most kindergarten programs have 1 teacher, and maybe a helper. Lots of them are 1/2 day programs. Expectations are set pretty much on what an average 5 year old kid can manage. 

And STILL, lots of people red-shirt their kids, so they can be one of the older kids in the class, perhaps to improve their chances of doing well socially and academically. 

Dogs aren't kids, but 8 week old puppies are babies. They are babies ripped away from everything they know and trust, and thrust into a whole new world. Sink or swim baby. And if they swim, and most do, they get a rush of confidence, and/or switch their confidence dependency from their dam and litter to their new owners. Ok, we all know that. 

But people are attracted to the breed for a number of reasons: their trainability, seeing them on TV, watching police dogs, etc. And besides expecting a dog that can learn to load the dishwasher and open the fridge and get you a beer, there is also that possibility that the dog will be able to rip a burglar limb from limb. And on top of that, everybody knows someone who has gotten bitten by a GSD. A lot of them that someone is they themselves. So now they are the proud owners of a spectacular critter with a lot of potential. 

If you get a labrador puppy, then you spend your first so many weeks working on house training and if you get that down, whoo hoo, your just about there. Lab owners don't go into it worrying that if they get it wrong, their dog just might bite the mailman. 

GSD owners start out with their first GSD, usually from a dubious breeder, often between 4-6 weeks old, with a load of expectations, and probably a little nervousness. They start reading and listening to everyone, most of whom are not experts at all, and they try to apply everything. They can't let the pup get the upper hand, they got to show him whose boss. They have to expose it to everything. Today. 

We get the new puppy home, and we stare at it waiting for it to demonstrate aggression, dominance, and so forth. If a lab puppy goes out to go potty and comes in the house and potties on the floor, then whoops, we should have stayed out there longer. If a GSD puppy goes out to potty and then comes in and potties on the floor, than it is defiance, stubborn behavior, or dominant behavior. 

So yeah, I cringe for GSD puppies who are getting an owner brand new to GSDs or brand new to puppies. But I also agree that they can be a great dog for a first-time owner. 

People on their second or third rodeo generally do better, because they can't possibly go through a number of years with a GSD and not learn anything. But as we become more experienced with a number of dogs, we learn that there are differences in temperament that lead to dogs that respond better to different leadership styles, and so forth. There really are no short cuts. The only way to learn and get the experience, and understand who your dog is and how he responds best, is to do it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have had hundreds of dogs pass through my life. Of every breed, size and age imaginable. My early teachings were from a graduate of the KMODT, as were my later schoolings with the patrol dogs. By nature I swing way the other direction and have a live and let live attitude. 
Perhaps because I literally lived with dogs, I see their behavior a bit different then most. I don't believe in training for pups and for that matter training dogs at all goes against my nature.
I have rules instead. 
I don't play with biting dogs
I don't pet jumping dogs
I don't pay attention to barking dogs
My house is not a toilet, and you cannot pee on things that are mine even outside. That includes each other!
Food on plates is mine, no matter where the plate is, and whether or not I am in sight. Also food on the barbeque.
If I put it in the garbage, that is where it stays.
Fences mean stop. The fact that you can get over, through or under them is irrelevant.
Don't pull me when we walk. This will result in multiple boring circles and turns that confuse and annoy drivers and pedestrians alike and we will never get to the patch of grass where I said you could roll around like a fool.

Beyond that I share my bed, the couch, sometimes snacks. We roll in the dirt, I eat food I have to pick hair out of. People over think everything, and miss out on the sheer joy of being an idiot with your dog.

It has been well over 3 decades since I failed to house train a pup in less then two weeks.
I have not had a dog in well over 2 decades that was not crate trained.

I simply don't let my dogs do things I don't want. Every dog brings new challenges and adventures, and they all teach me things.

The one and only, single, all important rule with training a new puppy or dog is....

Begin as you mean to continue.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I have learned many things from this board, but there are two that come to mind.

1. Watch your tone of voice and body language. If you are having issues with your dog blowing you off, it may even be revealing for you to tape your voice when you are giving commands or even ask a friend to take a video or two. If you watch it later, your may find that your voice is too tentative and your commands merely seem like options to your dog. You may find the dog is looking confused because you are being unclear about what you want. You don't necessarily have to show these clips to anyone, so be honest with yourself. Sometimes, the best way to change your dog's behavior is to change your own.

2. Watch for the signals that your dog is going to lose their cool about whatever, another dog, the mailman, a kid riding a bicycle down the street. Watch for the telltale signals and stop it before it even starts. It may be giving a stern "leave it," it may be stepping into the dog's line of sight, it may even be turning and walking in the opposite direction. It is so much easier to control a dog before they start flipping out rather than after and that is spoken by one who knows. This was invaluable to me.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

selzer said:


> So yeah, I cringe for GSD puppies who are getting an owner brand new to GSDs or brand new to puppies. But I also agree that they can be a great dog for a first-time owner.


Our now 14wk pup is my wife and I's first dog on our own... and it's a GSD, haha!



Sabis mom said:


> It has been well over 3 decades since I failed to house train a pup in less then two weeks.


I hate you

How the heck do you manage that? You need to do some videos or books or a thread about it because most people take months

Also, having only rules is still training :wink2:

***

My thing is I read up on all sorts of stuff for training for crate, and games, and tricks, and all that good stuff, and it all went out the window on day 1 and I've been just doing what I could, lol. Now that she's a little older, I'm able to follow those a little more closely


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

Getting my pup during summer... but these are some of the things I've written down that I found most important, some of which apply more to an older puppy than a very young one imo. And focus more on "how to train" rather than the early time when you get your pup which should focus on bonding rather than training i think. 

Consistency (have a set list of words) 
Patience 
Make a plan before you get your pup of what you expect (e.g. will he be allowed on the couch, will he not) 
Land sharking needs to be redirected not corrected 
"Manage" the puppy - so you can show him what the correct behaviors are. (constant supervision, if you can't then crate him or x-pen) 
always follow a correction by showing him the correct behavior (if you correct at all) (e.g when the dog jumps on you tell him no, then tell him to sit reward that) 
Corrections shouldn't be necessary until very far into the training after the dog knows what you expect of him
The pup will likely associate commands with places and not with the word at first so you have to show the pup that the command is the same everywhere. So don't expect perfect behavior, its likely not because the dog is intentionally not listening but could be lack of focus, lack of motivation, or he could simply not know what you want from him. 
keep "training" short and fun - always stop before your dog loses interest. 
Focus on bonding


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Armistice said:


> I hate you
> 
> How the heck do you manage that? You need to do some videos or books or a thread about it because most people take months
> 
> ...


Happy to help anyone who asks with house training. 

It really is simple. I just never, ever give puppies the opportunity to have accidents. I praise, praise, praise for pottying outside and if they somehow manage to get by me, I ignore it and move on. 
Shadow came home at less then 3 weeks, by 5 weeks we had potty training beat. AND my dogs use only one spot in the yard. 

And that's mostly what the rules boil down to. I ignore what I dislike and praise what I like:smile2:
Except the food thing, my food, don't mess with my food, it will not end well for you.

My sisters Pom had not seen me in 5 years but dropped to a wiggly sit as soon as I walked in the door. I don't pet jumping dogs. 

To much information can be dangerous, we spend far too much time worrying about a relationship that dates back to the earliest days of both our species.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Happy to help anyone who asks with house training.
> 
> It really is simple. I just never, ever give puppies the opportunity to have accidents. I praise, praise, praise for pottying outside and if they somehow manage to get by me, I ignore it and move on.
> Shadow came home at less then 3 weeks, by 5 weeks we had potty training beat. AND my dogs use only one spot in the yard.


So you'd take them out every 5-10 mins? My pup would have accidents after 10mins of being back inside from just going to the bathroom. After a week of accidents and tired of taking her out so often, so I went back to crating her

At 14wks now, we're trying again to let her be out more and she's been doing a LOT better at holding it


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Armistice said:


> So you'd take them out every 5-10 mins? My pup would have accidents after 10mins of being back inside from just going to the bathroom. After a week of accidents and tired of taking her out so often, so I went back to crating her
> 
> At 14wks now, we're trying again to let her be out more and she's been doing a LOT better at holding it


We go outside after 5-10 minutes of play, after eating, after drinking, immediately upon waking and every 20-30 minutes otherwise. Puppies are crated when I don't have eyes glued to them. I keep them blocked in whatever room I am in. I also keep them as engaged as possible. We chat or play or I introduce new things. It teaches them to focus on me and keeps me focused on them.
Once we go outside I don't go back in until they potty. We throw HUGE parties for correct toilet habits and I keep them out until I am satisfied they are done. In the winter the change in temperature will sometimes make them need to go again when I take them inside. I often go in for 5 minutes and then back out.
In warm weather I keep them outside as much as possible.
The SECOND that I see circling, sniffing or that panicky look, I scoop them up and we go outside.
If I have to clean up an accident I remove puppy to crate or outside first. 
Always use Outside as the cue and praise for even the slightest, smallest indicator.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't have a crate, never have. I got my current puppy at 13 wks, and never took her outside for a potty break during the night. 6 times she had accidents in the house, 3 were so clearly my fault that they don't count on her...I fed her late or failed to take her out before bed... I caught her only once before she peed on the carpet, and scooped her up quickly to go outside. But I didn't praise for going potty, and I didn't correct or punish at all for accidents in the house.

I can't say whether this is normal or not it's the first time I've raised a puppy indoors. 

But when I hear of people taking their 14-16 wk old puppy out every hour or two at night I can't help thinking you're training them to need that. Dogs or puppies don't soil their living quarters as a rule. Just show them the alternative and they seem to get it pretty darn fast...IME anyway...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

By 8 weeks most pups should just about make it through the night. I usually go with food at 7ish, water up at 9ish, bedtime pee at midnight and wake up at 6 or 7. 
By 12 weeks your puppy should be fine from 11 to 7, and I feed pups 3 meals a day to 4-6 months. Sometimes for the first year.

I have raised a lot of pups from 4-5 weeks and I expect that 4 hours is max at that age. 

The thing is puppies sleep, a lot, when they are young. We are the reason they wake up so much. We disturb them. An 8 week old puppy will sleep about 18-20 hours a day left alone. Even an adult dog sleeps 12-15 hours left to decide. 
So break it down and 6-8 hours through the night isn't a stretch. Again, we over think things. I don't play at night. We potty and go back to bed. Puppy crates or boxes go next to my bed where I can soothe and comfort without going anywhere. And I have been known to keep puppies in my bed, especially young ones.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

A handy one has been this:

If you want your puppy to eventually be able to handle being off leash, start as early as possible. Take them to a quiet trail/path and let them follow you. The younger they are, the better they'll be at following and staying nearby. Praise heavily when they walk near you. Praise heavily when they successfully walk by something scary/distracting and continue following you. Take them off the path periodically, and praise heavily when they poop off the path.

But the most important one of all:

They're dogs first and foremost. Let them just be a dog sometimes; they'll thank you for it.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> But when I hear of people taking their 14-16 wk old puppy out every hour or two at night I can't help thinking you're training them to need that. Dogs or puppies don't soil their living quarters as a rule. Just show them the alternative and they seem to get it pretty darn fast...IME anyway...


For my 3mo old, I pick up water and food at 9pm, bedtime is 11pm, a potty break at 3am, and we're up around 7-730am for breakfast. A few times I've been too tired, and she was sleeping, so she went the whole night without a potty break. I could prob now extend that to all night



Sabis mom said:


> By 8 weeks most pups should just about make it through the night. I usually go with food at 7ish, water up at 9ish, bedtime pee at midnight and wake up at 6 or 7.
> By 12 weeks your puppy should be fine from 11 to 7, and I feed pups 3 meals a day to 4-6 months. Sometimes for the first year.
> 
> I have raised a lot of pups from 4-5 weeks and I expect that 4 hours is max at that age.


See this is nowhere close to what I've heard on this forum or other sites. Usually it's "your puppy's age in months plus 1 is the hours your pup can hold it comfortably at night". So a 2mo pup should go 3hrs. 3mos can be 4hrs... etc

You must have a 4 leaf clover, a rabbit's foot, and a horseshoe hidden somewhere to have a 5wk pup housebroken AND have an 8wk pup hold it all night. I doubt many others here have done either of those



Kyrielle said:


> A handy one has been this:
> 
> If you want your puppy to eventually be able to handle being off leash, start as early as possible. Take them to a quiet trail/path and let them follow you. The younger they are, the better they'll be at following and staying nearby. Praise heavily when they walk near you. Praise heavily when they successfully walk by something scary/distracting and continue following you. Take them off the path periodically, and praise heavily when they poop off the path.
> 
> ...


My in-laws have a good sized backyard. The last time I took my pup over and walked around the yard every time she came back to me to "check in" she was given some praise, pets, and treats. Then she'd go off and explore some more. I plan on doing more work as I'll be going over a lot more often as she's completely zonked come night time :wink2:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> I don't believe in training for pups and for that matter training dogs at all goes against my nature.
> I have rules instead.


I like this perspective! Rules. No ambiguity. Clear. Dogs, and people, like that...

And it's a common mistake made by new dog owners. I'll let it slide just this once > Pretty soon the dog won't do anything you ask of him...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, I don't house train anymore. When they have the whelping box, I start out with newspapers in a 4x4 box -- two of them, but the puppies start out with just the one, and I can clean the one box, while I have them in the other, after they are walking, I leave the door open between the boxes so they have more room, and only separate them for cleaning. Then I switch form newspapers to wood chips. Then, weather permitting, I put them outside on wood chips for about a week or so. Then I bring them back in, but I have woodchips in the kennel on the other side of the doggy door, and the inside is an x-pen around the doggy door with no wood chips inside. 

It's like magic, they house train themselves. 

And my people say things like, "he was the easiest dog ever to house train" or "she only ever had 1 accident in the house." They appreciate all the work I did house training them. The ones I keep stay with their mother in the puppy pen longer. And then I will start letting them in the rest of the house for short stints while I supervise, and I take them to classes. I am actually shocked that I am not usually cleaning up potty messes during class. Because they aren't house trained yet. Not really. 

Most of them by the point that they are 8 weeks old, and certainly by 12 weeks, they want to go outside to do any pottying. But I am not yelling at them or dragging them outside. Occasionally, I have said, "Outside to pee pee!" But that is not even necessary if the gate is open and they can get outside. When I am showing puppies to people I keep the gate closed. If I am not supervising, I keep the gate closed. Why? Because they will go to my dirty clothes basket and pick out something embarrassing and run through the house with it and outside. And even though my back yard is secluded, I really do not like chasing after my stuff outside. 

So once we have been in for short stints with no accidents. I will start letting them spend the night in my bedroom, bath, and hallway. With good scheduling, and without anyone has a loose stool, I hardly ever have an accident inside. It would be easier if I could just leave the gate open. But then they take the inside toys outside (amongst other things), or worse yet, they will bring a soggy, nasty, outside toy or icicle inside and put that in your bed. Nope. doggy doors are awesome, especially for pregnant, old or very young dogs. But the inside needs to have some form of gate or pen, or the inside will be out there and the outside will be inside. One day three young whelps dragged a tree through that doggy door. A gigantic limb, 10 feet long at least, must have fallen from the tree while I was at work, and I came home, and the 3 of them were ever so proud of themselves for having managed to drag the thing through the doggy door. 

As for the house training thing. Occasionally I do have one that will do that excited urination, but I totally ignore that and just clean it up. It stops relatively quickly on its own. 

This last pup, Kojak, I just put him in with Jenna. He was about 12 weeks when I got him. I let Jenna show him the ropes. Jenna has a doggy door to the outside. And he was perfectly happy to do his business outside. House trained himself.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Armistice said:


> See this is nowhere close to what I've heard on this forum or other sites. Usually it's "your puppy's age in months plus 1 is the hours your pup can hold it comfortably at night". So a 2mo pup should go 3hrs. 3mos can be 4hrs... etc
> 
> You must have a 4 leaf clover, a rabbit's foot, and a horseshoe hidden somewhere to have a 5wk pup housebroken AND have an 8wk pup hold it all night. I doubt many others here have done either of those.



Sabi was 6.5 weeks old when I brought her home. For two weeks she woke me up at exactly 4am for a potty break. So she would sleep from 11-4 and then from 4-6. It took me a bit to figure it out, but the guy downstairs had his alarm set for 4am. Didn't wake me up but it woke her up. Other then that little hiccup she was house trained in 3 days, and she was born outside and had no human interaction until I brought her home.
I solved the alarm problem by playing a radio at night. Once I did that she slept from 11-6 without fail.
Again puppies sleep a lot. I realized how much we disturbed them when I raised a deaf puppy. Since she couldn't hear me, she slept so much that I consulted my vet. Puppy was just fine, she just wasn't able to hear all the noise that would disturb her sleep.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, an 8 week old puppy can be expected to hold it 3 hours. That is, if they have free access to food and water. If, on the other hand you have a schedule for food, say 6 am, noon, 6pm, and water is shut off at 7 pm. And a last opportunity for pottying is given at 11pm. Then the dog is crated, in a crate that is proper for the size the puppy is now -- not so big that the puppy can sleep on one end and potty on the other, then the puppy can wake you up at 5:30 or so and make it outside with you before he lets go. Then he eats, and potties again, then you play with him and let him potty again before heading off to work. And you should either come home to let him potty, eat, drink, walk about and potty again before the afternoon session. And, I wouldn't put water in the crate with them. They can get all the water they need when they are free, morning, noon, and evening. It may sound cruel, but it is more cruel to make a puppy last with a full-bladder.


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## GSDFreya (Jan 31, 2018)

Thank you for this thread, I will be following!


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## EdmondB (Mar 2, 2018)

As a soon to be new GSD puppy owner. I am interested in time. I wouldn't mind a weekly plan on what to train the puppy and for how long.

i.e Monday: Training to sit, 15 minutes. Training X, 15 minutes. etc


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

EdmondB, I wouldn't "plan" a schedule for training a puppy. I hand fed mine, and yes he was quite young, all his meals for several months. Being retired allowed me plenty of time, but have raised puppies while working full time and with a young step-daughter at the time. I started the first week or so just bonding with him during his meals. Petting, him sitting on me, those sorts of things. Then I started luring and shaping behaviors with some of the handfuls, not all. I keep (still do now that he's 8 months old today) treats in my pocket at all times. We would "play" learning the sit, down, stand, spin, twirl, weave between my legs. Making it all a part of play. I may work him in IPO, and even if I don't, I wanted a good "out"..So as we played with toys, we also learned things. Read how now they say dogs should get to "play" after training. My training is play and my play is training. Puppies have baby brains, baby attention spans, and need short bursts of fun training. Have fun with your soon to be furry one.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EdmondB said:


> As a soon to be new GSD puppy owner. I am interested in time. I wouldn't mind a weekly plan on what to train the puppy and for how long.
> 
> i.e Monday: Training to sit, 15 minutes. Training X, 15 minutes. etc


Depending on the age of the puppy, you're better off with multiple very short sessions per day. Three 5 minutes sessions vs one 15 minute session, for example. It's important to keep your expectations realistic and understand that young puppies have very short attention spans. And I prefer to mark and reward behaviors (capturing) that a puppy is offering up spontaneously and then name them later rather than trying to teach specific commands. This can be done with a verbal marker ("Yes!") or a clicker. Until a puppy is doing what I want there's no point giving a verbal command, since the puppy doesn't know what it means yet. 

Some of the things I work on right from the start are name recognition, focus, sits, downs, the beginning of a recall, impulse control, naming toys and trading toys for other toys (the beginning of an "out" command, but voluntary at first). Puppies can learn a lot through play. I like to teach hand targeting (nose to palm - the "touch" command), and "find it", a treat tossed on the floor. Those two along with "watch" are all attention directing exercises, and each can be used as foundations for more difficult and complicated behaviors later. 

My puppies learn to stop at doors until released to go through them, and to sit until released at mealtimes. I start VERY easy - puppy is released the second the bowl hits the floor, and work up to more duration as appropriate. I work on luring with a treat to get the puppy to walk next to me, off leash around the house or outdoors in the dog run. Within the first couple of months you can teach a puppy to go to a mat a short distance away and sit or down on it until released by shaping - marking and rewarding small incremental steps towards the final behavior.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thought I'd jump in here to add that virtually everything you do with your puppy in the first few weeks IS training! They are constantly learning...just keep it light and fun and short! Some very relevant, recent links...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/726626-first-nights-so-you-sleep-well.html


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/734297-train-then-play.html


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

A lot of bonding, socializing, and treat-luring for young pups.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I did not read every post so this has probably been said a couple times already. But bonding and engagement. My first dog was an only dog for a year. The bond and Engagement we developed during that early time in his life pays off hugely while training. I actually backed off of Athena's training at one point and worked strictly on bond and engaging. It has helped tremendously.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am also in the bonding and engagement camp. 
I do next to no structured training for the first year. We learn through play, both me and the puppy. It gives me the opportunity to find all of those oh so important keys. What makes puppy tick? 
We do house training, crate training and work on learning to live together. I do work on sit and come because they are so easy to teach and can cover a multitude of sins. Sitting puppies cannot jump, or chew, or attack! Lol.
Plus a whole litter of puppies dropping to a wiggly sit for goodies is adorable!
Beyond that it's all about laying a foundation of trust. The foundation is what the whole house rests on so it needs to be solid. We learn house rules, and many dogs need nothing further, I am not interested in anything beyond us learning each others quirks.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

EdmondB said:


> As a soon to be new GSD puppy owner. I am interested in time. I wouldn't mind a weekly plan on what to train the puppy and for how long.
> 
> i.e Monday: Training to sit, 15 minutes. Training X, 15 minutes. etc


Not sure if you mean a 15 minute stretch to teach sit. It's more one minute at a time several times a day when they are that young. They an attention span of a 3 year old kid.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

*Safe Off Leash Fun*



tim_s_adams said:


> I'm still hoping some first time dog owners, or new to GSD owners, will contribute thoughts on what training advice helped YOU most in raising your puppy! Chime in!


One of the best things I have done to help with my puppy Rollo is *not so much me doing in any training, but taking the time to find a couple of cool parks (NOT dog parks) nearby to do some off leash romping*. I take Rollo to this park 5 mins away from my house that has woods and tons of trails and even a "beach" with sand into a river. 90% of the time it is very empty & I take Rollo off his leash and he is good at keeping close. He ABSOLUTELY LOVES these "hikes" and it is great exercise for him while being off cement. A good hike and little swim, makes all the difference for how the rest of our day goes LOL!


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