# Clicker Training Without Treats



## ~Saphira~ (Apr 25, 2012)

Is it possible? Can it be done? Has it been done? 

For praise or toy oriented dogs, can you eliminate the treats entirely? Has anyone done it? The clicker is an amazingly useful tool, as are treats, but if there was a way to avoid treats in regular training, it would be awesome as well. I understand that the behaviors may take a little bit more time to train, depending on the dog, but I would just like to know if it's at all possible. 

Thanks in advance for your advice : )


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The concept is possible but difficult. The click always means a reward is coming, so you can't keep clicking and not "paying". Praise and toys could work but take more time and might interrupt the flow of training or the dog's drives or focus.

With my dogs I only use treats with a clicker but also build in the word "yes" as a marker and use that later on with toys and praise once the dog is farther along and doesn't need the marker "charged".


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think a dog can be trained without a clicker or treats.
i've never used a clicker. i use treats and praise when training.
i phase out the treats at some point but i always praise.


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## ~Saphira~ (Apr 25, 2012)

Doggiedad- yes, of course a dog could be trained without both. I just like the idea of clicker training, and I want to see people's thoughts on the subject : )


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

What do you do if your dog learns to respond only to treats or a clicker and you don't have one with you, or you need to use your hands for leashwork? I prefer praise. I've used treats for specific behaviors, otherwise, I like the dog to focus on me rather than on what's in my hand.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i thought you were asking can you train a dog without
treats or a clicker?



~Saphira~ said:


> Is it possible? Can it be done? Has it been done?
> 
> For praise or toy oriented dogs,
> 
> ...





~Saphira~ said:


> >>>> Doggiedad- yes, of course a dog could be trained without both. I just like the idea of clicker training, and I want to see people's thoughts on the subject <<<<
> 
> : )


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I've never had a problem phasing out treats, or the clicker, once a behavior has _really_ been learned. 

I've come from training Italian Greyhounds and Dobermans, which are NOT easy to train with traditional methods. My trainer used to say "With goldens, you pattern. With shepherds, you train. With Dobermans, you negotiate". Yep.

I haven't used a clicker on my 12 year old blind IG in probably 6 years, but she still has the snappiest tuck sit you've ever seen. I tell her to sit, and she can't sit fast enough. I don't have the clicker on me, and she rarely gets treats (digestive issues). 

As for leashes, I have a terrible habit of fiddling with the leash - basically I just pester my dog with it. I have greater success if I attach the leash to my belt loop and drop the leash. I've taught a myriad of behaviors without ever touching my dog (or that darn leash).

Just my experience!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Liesje said:


> With my dogs I only use treats with a clicker but also build in the word "yes" as a marker and use that later on with toys and praise once the dog is farther along and doesn't need the marker "charged".


I do the same thing. 

Also when you have a behavior solidly on cue, then you can switch to using intermittent reinforcement. There's a whole schedule you can use to phase out the treating. And eventually you are only treating every once in a while. Now when I ask my dogs to do all kinds of behaviors, they do them, not knowing if a treat is coming or not. If I don't treat, I praise. It works.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Absolutely. I did some training for my landlord's Golden and I mostly used a ball as his reward. You just start off clicking every time you throw the ball and then from there you can start training. I was able to lure with the ball as well.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm not sure I understand.

The clicker is simply the marker and is not a reward in of itself. 
I suppose if you had a dog that praise was reward enough you could click and then praise?

I had no problem eliminating both the clicker and the treats with Dante with any of his training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me the problem is "loading" or "charging" the clicker. Loading/charging with praise or toy or anything other than food would be too annoying for me. When you charge a clicker you basically click/reward over and over in rapid fire to build the association between the marker and the reward. Something that you can't dole out once ever 2 seconds max or so doesn't really work for charging a clicker. Sure you can build an association with someone else positive but for me it's not quite the same. I use click/treat as pure marker training, so the treat is a reward/payment and not necessarily a motivator, which to me is a bit different. I use praise, playing games, playing with toys as motivators, rewards, and stress relievers during training but when I'm clicker training it's just click/treat nonstop and the food is a simple "yes, good" type payment for the dog. Obviously there's a million ways to train a dog, with or without a clicker, and sure a clicker could be used without food I just don't see the point. Different ways to use clickers and/or marker train but if I can't fire off a click/reward per second then to me it's not worth it for how I use a clicker.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LuvShepherds said:


> What do you do if your dog learns to respond only to treats or a clicker and you don't have one with you, or you need to use your hands for leashwork?


That's just poor training, not clicker training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LuvShepherds, I use the clicker to introduce new behaviors/tricks. It gets faded pretty quickly (like within a few sessions). I found this vid, not to show the training (many things still being polished) but to show that everything the dog is doing in this video was based on clicker training (the eye contact, heeling position, sit, down, and retrieve were all introduced with a clicker), but there are no clickers, food, or lures being used here. The dog is responding to the commands and the training, not the presence of a clicker or food, and both hands are free while the dog is working. This dog hasn't seen/heard a clicker in almost six months.






No matter what method or tool you use, you're going to have to fade your rewards, markers, corrections, etc. The dog should not become dependent on the presence of any tool or reward in order to work reliably and the dog should want to be engaged with the handler whether a clicker is being used or not.

The nice thing about clicker training (in my opinion) is that it lets you break down difficult behaviors - like a formal dumbbell retrieve - into tiny baby steps so that the dog learns quickly and is always successful and always being affirmed and rewarded.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Very nice work. I took a class with my younger dog that used treats and clickers, and was unable to duplicate the behaviors without them. They taught us to use them, but not how to stop. I switched to another class that uses a different method (voice mostly and hand signals) and that dog did very well, but still isn't at the level that your dog is.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> What do you do if your dog learns to respond only to treats or a clicker and you don't have one with you, or you need to use your hands for leashwork? I prefer praise. I've used treats for specific behaviors, otherwise, I like the dog to focus on me rather than on what's in my hand.


This question shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the process. Marker training, either with a verbal marker or a clicker, and a food reward, does not mean that your dog will only respond when you have treats and a clicker! They're used to train the behaviors, not forever. Once I've taught my dogs to sit and have generalized the command to different situations and circumstances, they know the command. I don't need to keep training it over and over again, so I don't need to continually mark and reward it either. It's learned. 

If you can't manage to use a clicker and a leash at the same time, you can simply use a verbal marker. But it's really not that hard, I use a clicker and a leash together all the time. I can either leave the clicker attached to my treat bag and click as I'm reaching in for a treat, while holding the leash in my other hand. Or, I can use a wrist strap to attach the clicker to my hand. I hold a few treats in the same hand, and the leash in the other. Some people hold the clicker and leash in the same hand and use the other hand to deliver the reward. But I also do a lot of training off leash around the house, so I don't need to always worry about juggling too many things at the same time. 

Praise is not inherently rewarding to dogs. It's a secondary reinforcer, meaning that the dog learns to associate it with a primary reinforcer - something that is inherently valuable to the dog, like food. Until that association is created they're just words in a language that dogs are not born knowing, and as such, are meaningless. It's the association with good things to come that makes praise reinforcing.

And finally, I like the dog to focus on me rather than what's in my hand too. Fortunately, it's really easy to train your dog that staring at food in your hand, or in your pocket, or at the ball you're holding, or whatever, means that they're never going to get it. The only way to make that happen is to ignore it and focus on me instead. Really, really easy to train.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

~Saphira~ said:


> Is it possible? Can it be done? Has it been done?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Of course!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> The click always means a reward is coming, so you can't keep clicking and not "paying".


Not true.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Of course you *can* click and not treat but at least to me the point of the click is pairing with the treat. I go by Karen Pryor's methods. Otherwise the clicker doesn't serve the same purpose for me, it becomes a bridge and I already have a bridge (the word "yes") or a secondary reinforcer. I treat every time I click, but fade how often I click/treat rather than keep clicking and not treating. For me a clicker is a "conditioned reinforcer" and praise does not work as a CR based on it's definition, nor does clicking and not treating/paying.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Of course you *can* click and not treat but at least to me the point of the click is pairing with the treat. I go by Karen Pryor's methods. Otherwise the clicker doesn't serve the same purpose for me, it becomes a bridge and I already have a bridge (the word "yes") or a secondary reinforcer. I treat every time I click, but fade how often I click/treat rather than keep clicking and not treating. For me a clicker is a "conditioned reinforcer" and praise does not work as a CR based on it's definition, nor does clicking and not treating/paying.


I use the click a bit differently. To me this tells the dog "you are safe; a reward may come but nothing negative will come." 

For instance, teaching the finish, Perhaps you tell the dog "heel" and this turns on electric. The dog reaches the heel position and the electric turns off. "CLICK" Now a reward may come or it may not, but the dog knows this position turns off the electric and makes him safe. 

The clicker is such a versatile tool, there is no reason to get stuck using it only one way.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Liesje is right on track with the clicker training.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

GregK said:


> Liesje is right on track with the clicker training.


Of course she is not wrong. But the clicker is like the e-collar, it is incredibly versatile. It's use is limited only by imagination and understanding.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> I use the click a bit differently. To me this tells the dog "you are safe; a reward may come but nothing negative will come."
> 
> For instance, teaching the finish, Perhaps you tell the dog "heel" and this turns on electric. The dog reaches the heel position and the electric turns off. "CLICK" Now a reward may come or it may not, but the dog knows this position turns off the electric and makes him safe.
> 
> The clicker is such a versatile tool, there is no reason to get stuck using it only one way.


Oh I agree it works but it's different then "clicker training" (vs. "training with a clicker") which is not a very descriptive term but isn't really all-inclusive as far as how the clicker is used, how and with what the dog is rewarded.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> Of course you *can* click and not treat but at least to me the point of the click is pairing with the treat. I go by Karen Pryor's methods. Otherwise the clicker doesn't serve the same purpose for me, it becomes a bridge and I already have a bridge (the word "yes") or a secondary reinforcer. I treat every time I click, but fade how often I click/treat rather than keep clicking and not treating. For me a clicker is a "conditioned reinforcer" and praise does not work as a CR based on it's definition, nor does clicking and not treating/paying.


Yep, that IS clicker training - the click signals that a reward is coming, always. Doesn't matter if it's a food or toy reward, but if you aren't going to reward, you don't click. 

You can use a clicker any way you want, you could even punish your dog with a clicker by chucking it at his head each time he makes a mistake, but that's not "clicker training"! :laugh:

ETA: I don't bother to charge the clicker or my marker word (I use both), I just start using them. I've never had any trouble with a dog who didn't figure out almost immediately that the click or the "yes!" meant that they were getting a treat, even a brand new puppy. A few repetitions, and they've made that association.


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