# Thoughts on this breeder? Rare markings, explains skepticism



## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

And only one Ripoff report located for revoked AKC papers due to DNA issues on both parents. . 









Sorry, my curiosity was running rampant.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi. I posted earlier today asking for help choosing between puppies with rare markings and got a ton of backlash in this community against the rare coloring and refusal to believe they’re purebred. If you do the research you’ll see other breeders charging alot more for these rare markings. The first time I ever saw a silver sable GSD like hers was at the breeder I bought my last dog from, and I was just blown away by how beautiful these dogs are._ Don’t be discouraged by the naysayers here that claim it is impossible to have a purebred GSD with these markings. _

As for the breeder you are asking about. I am actually in the process of purchasing a dog from her. She sent me the AKC pedigree for both parents of the litter in the add you posted. I had no problem looking up the Sire, unfortunately she sent me the images in text and I can’t quite read all the identifying info for the Dam to be able to look her info up.

But, I did meet her (with my twin boys, 11) at her home and all of her dogs. The puppies were very clean and well cared for. The adult dogs were all of good temperament, friendly. This was important for me as my last GSD was an amazing dog but he was an obsessive compulsive barker which I learned after not being able to train him not to be that way, it was likely a result from his environment during welping. And, the dogs are unmistakably German Shepherds

I don't get even the slightest impression like she’s running a scam, she’s very genuine. She has maintained regular contact with me, has had no hesitation in answering any of my questions or in telling me anything and everything about her dogs. She even showed me text messages of pictures her buyers have sent her of their puppies/grown dogs after purchasing as they’ve grown.

But, she specifically breeds for rare colors. She has two solid white GSDs, two Isabella’s, the two silver sables, mom has no mask, dad has reverse mask, and she has one blue. Some of them were long haired shepherds and some had the traditional coat, can’t remember which ones were which. I didn’t get to meet the blue as that dog had just birthed a litter 1 week before my visit and she told me is a nervous new mom with her first litter. But I’m going back Saturday to officially select my pup and I can’t wait to see the other litter and mom (hopefully). Just to see the blue!

If you search online like her ad recommends you’ll see she’s not the only breeder for these rare markings. But for me, she is affordable and she is local (50 minutes from my house). Which gave me a lot of peace of mind since I could physically go to her and see things in person.

I’m not sure about the ripoff report you mentioned, or even how to look that up, but she told me she’s been breeding for 30 years, and I would imagine if she’s a fraud there would be a lot more complaints out there.

Hope that helps. 😊 Are you looking for a puppy?


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Oh, and she also has a Facebook page where you can see other buyers and their reviews.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

For the life of me I cannot imagine a scenario where I would care more about color or markings over temperment and health! 

Ten to fifteen yrs you'll spend with your dog. Think about it! Looong time! Temperment is paramount! Health too! Looks? We all have preferences for sure. I like black and bi color best, historically, though some of these sables are freaking gorgeous as well!

But at the end of the day, it will always be temperament, health, then color for me!

Anyway, just my 2 cents... Cheers!


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Jen H1125, I think you are misunderstanding what was said on your thread.

No one questioned whether or not purebred dogs could have a reverse mask. There are members here who own purebred dogs with reverse masks.

The point is that anyone who breeds primarily for color is not the reputable breeder you think they are. That's a contradiction.

I hope you are happy with your pup and if color is paramount to you that's your choice.

Good luck with your pup.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Pawsed said:


> Jen H1125, I think you are misunderstanding what was said on your thread.
> 
> No one questioned whether or not purebred dogs could have a reverse mask. There are members here who own purebred dogs with reverse masks.
> 
> ...


Was just literally writing the same thing.
Also @Jen those dogs are beautiful no question about it. However, you can’t expect everyone to just take your word for it that this breeder is 100% great and trustworthy- especially someone that breeds only a particular colour/marking. The whole point of GSDs is that they are bred for their temperaments and not what they look like. Anyway, good luck!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I wonder why that breeder has a picture of Huskies in their ad? I never saw a German Shepherd breeder do that before. The only dogs that I see that could be silver sables is the picture of the littlest Hobo dogs but they actually look more gray sable. 

The whole advertisement by the breeder is about defending the purity of her mixed breeds. She has nothing to say about her dogs at all outside of that.

I wonder where she is getting her misinformation on reverse masks in the German Shepherd community. There are plenty of reverse masked dogs being used by breeders today. 

I used to have a Malamute. They are notorious howlers and because of it, they can be hard to keep in urban areas without neighbor complaints. 

I wonder if you can report this ad to Hoobly for false advertising. $900 is a lot of money to pay for a mongrel when you think you are paying for an AKC German Shepherd. 

Lord was a nice example of a reverse masked sable that can be found in many pedigrees. Lord vom Gleisdreieck


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

@Pawsed and @GSDnewbieNero, What I got from my post was a ton of _*unsolicited*_ advice regarding my breeder that I never asked for or requested.
I asked a very simple coloring question and mentioned nothing about where I was getting my pup from in my OP, and what I got was a very condescending argument that the puppies I’m looking at couldn’t possibly be anything other than a husky mix based solely on the coloring of the Sire. I didn’t misunderstand anything. And I’d rather not hijack @Hellish ’s thread with a continuation of mine now that comments have been closed.

It can stand to reason that a breeder that knows what they are doing can breed for temperament, health AND color. Yes there are a lot of novice backyard breeders, frauds/scams, and puppy mills out there, there are also a lot of hobby breeders that do a great job and breed amazing pets.

If this guy is looking for a high dollar pedigree background stud dog to breed and sell puppies for thousands of dollars a piece, nope, he probably should stay away. But, if he’s looking for a pet, I’m just letting him know I’ve physically been there, seen the dogs, their living condition and temperament and I believe them to be great GSDs.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

@MineAreWorkingline, Did you even bother to read the ad, or just skim the photos? The only husky reference in the add is the 3rd photo from the left showing the physical differences between the silver sable reverse-masked GSD, the husky and the malamute. It is very clearly labeled. And it’s there to help people like you see the difference. The color photos are her dogs and pups and the other black and whites are the Little Hobo dog stars. She *clearly* describes her dogs that are for sale as AKC, registered, and DNA tested, pure blooded German Shepherd Dogs.

I have two next door neighbors with 3 AKC huskies between them and another close friend with both an AKC husky and an AKC GSD, and make no mistake this breeders dog which I have seen, pet and played with in person has absolutely no physical similarities with huskies other than the black coloring on his face.

@Hellish, I would recommend you look up the breeders FB page, you have the name scratched out in the photo, she has several pictures on her page of her Sire, that are much better photos of him.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

JenH1125 said:


> Hi. I posted earlier today asking for help choosing between puppies with rare markings and got a ton of backlash in this community against the rare coloring and refusal to believe they’re purebred. If you do the research you’ll see other breeders charging alot more for these rare markings. The first time I ever saw a silver sable GSD like hers was at the breeder I bought my last dog from, and I was just blown away by how beautiful these dogs are._ Don’t be discouraged by the naysayers here that claim it is impossible to have a purebred GSD with these markings. _
> 
> As for the breeder you are asking about. I am actually in the process of purchasing a dog from her. She sent me the AKC pedigree for both parents of the litter in the add you posted. I had no problem looking up the Sire, unfortunately she sent me the images in text and I can’t quite read all the identifying info for the Dam to be able to look her info up.
> 
> ...


Those dogs aren’t German shepherds. Did your breeder explain the genetics behind their color to you? The question you can’t here to ask is a question the breeder should have been able to answer for you. The reason this upsets me has nothing to do with you personally. People who label dogs that aren’t German shepherds as German shepherds, or any other breed for instance, are doing the breed a disservice. There are plenty of issues to be concerned with in real German shepherds. The actual issues with the breed don’t need to be confused with the issues of other breeds or mixed breeds. You came to a German shepherd forum, and were told those aren’t purebred German shepherds. Papers get hung. What is the registration number on these dogs? I don’t know how you can’t read the akc pedigree or registration. They are actually pretty straight forward documents. If it doesn’t look like one of these two documents, it’s not real. You could also link us to the pedigree database.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JenH1125 said:


> @MineAreWorkingline, Did you even bother to read the ad, or just skim the photos? The only husky reference in the add is the 3rd photo from the left showing the physical differences between the silver sable reverse-masked GSD, the husky and the malamute. It is very clearly labeled. And it’s there to help people like you see the difference. The color photos are her dogs and pups and the other black and whites are the Little Hobo dog stars. She *clearly* describes her dogs that are for sale as AKC, registered, and DNA tested, pure blooded German Shepherd Dogs.
> 
> I have two next door neighbors with 3 AKC huskies between them and another close friend with both an AKC husky and an AKC GSD, and make no mistake this breeders dog which I have seen, pet and played with in person has absolutely no physical similarities with huskies other than the black coloring on his face.
> 
> @Hellish, I would recommend you look up the breeders FB page, you have the name scratched out in the photo, she has several pictures on her page of her Sire, that are much better photos of him.


Yes, I read this backyard breeder's blather. 

I don't need help identifying Huskies or reverse masks.

I am well aware of the Littlest Hobo dogs. See my prior post.

She clearly omits ALL information on her dogs. 

Siberian Huskies are known as Huskies. I never said her dogs resemble or are crossed with Huskies. I cleary stated Alaskan Malamutes. 

Do not stalk and harass me because the truth offends you.


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## cmacc (Jul 13, 2020)

JenH1125 said:


> @Pawsed and @GSDnewbieNero, What I got from my post was a ton of _*unsolicited*_ advice regarding my breeder that I never asked for or requested.
> I asked a very simple coloring question and mentioned nothing about where I was getting my pup from in my OP, and what I got was a very condescending argument that the puppies I’m looking at couldn’t possibly be anything other than a husky mix based solely on the coloring of the Sire. I didn’t misunderstand anything. And I’d rather not hijack @Hellish ’s thread with a continuation of mine now that comments have been closed.
> 
> It can stand to reason that a breeder that knows what they are doing can breed for temperament, health AND color. Yes there are a lot of novice backyard breeders, frauds/scams, and puppy mills out there, there are also a lot of hobby breeders that do a great job and breed amazing pets.
> ...


One of the biggest problems with this breed is people (not directing this at you) thinking because they "just" want a pet that the breed standard shouldn't matter, you should never settle on less just because the dog is only going to be a member of your family. 

I think you're missing the point that these dogs are clearly not within the standard, a reputable breeder would not be breeding them or selling them at discounted rates depending on what the owner plans on doing with them. Someone who truly believes in the bettering of the breed has thousands of dollars and hours into their dogs, shows their dogs, titles their dogs and can talk for hours about bloodlines, structure, the sport/venue they're involved in, what they are hoping to achieve with a certain pairing rather than breeding for a "rare" faulty colour.

You've gotten backlash because you've posted on a page full of people that are passionate about the breed and offer countless lines of training advice for people that fall victim to the types of BYB ads posted above when they run into temperament/aggression issues due to the focus on colour instead of genetics. This warning may not reach you but it may serve as a learning opportunity for others who browse the threads.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Those dogs aren’t German shepherds. Did your breeder explain the genetics behind their color to you? The question you can’t here to ask is a question the breeder should have been able to answer for you. The reason this upsets me has nothing to do with you personally. People who label dogs that aren’t German shepherds as German shepherds, or any other breed for instance, are doing the breed a disservice. There are plenty of issues to be concerned with in real German shepherds. The actual issues with the breed don’t need to be confused with the issues of other breeds or mixed breeds. You came to a German shepherd forum, and were told those aren’t purebred German shepherds. Papers get hung. What is the registration number on these dogs? I don’t know how you can’t read the akc pedigree or registration. They are actually pretty straight forward documents. If it doesn’t look like one of these two documents, it’s not real. You could also link us to the pedigree database.
> View attachment 563115
> View attachment 563116


Wow you people really only read/listen or hear what you want before you start with you attacks don’t you.
What I said was the pedigree photo she texted me is hard to see because of photo quality. It is very clearly AKC papers and the second one the one you all are *SOOOOOO CONVINCED *can’t possibly be a purebred GSD is registered and comes up on AKC’s searchable database.
I’m not giving you people the specific information because you are desperate to attack, and blind to the facts. And like other small business I support her, so I’m not giving you ammunition to attack her. Want more proof.... here’s another breeder doing the same thing. All pure blooded GSDs.... scroll down to the slideshow of photos and you’ll see tons of these dogs and NONE of them are mixed with husky or malamute.









no good dog is a bad color


every color german shepherd, sable german shepherds, black and tan german shepherds, white german shepherds, solid black german shepherds, black and silver blue




www.wolfganghausgsd.com





here’s another one:






Bellevue German Shepherds


Bellevue German Shepherds, located in Sacramento, CA specializing in breeding show quality black, white and black and silver german shepherds.




www.bellevuegsd.com





@cmacc The silver sable wolf mask is not a faulty color by AKC standards. Look it up, actually I posted it on my thread taken directly from their website. The Liver and the blue colors are a fault, but they are still eligible for competition. The only color listed with AKC that is disqualified is white, but white is not a disqualified color with UKC.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think it's offensive that she uses Chuck's dogs in her advertising. I think it's more offensive that she thinks her dogs look like his. 
They don't
Papers blah blah blah. Still not buying it. My eyeballs don't lie.


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## cmacc (Jul 13, 2020)

JenH1125 said:


> @cmacc The silver sable wolf mask is not a faulty color by AKC standards. Look it up, actually I posted it on my thread taken directly from their website. The Liver and the blue colors are a fault, but they are still eligible for completion. The only color listed with AKC that is disqualified is white, but white is not a disqualified color with UKC.


I've never heard of a silver sable wolf mask or read anything that references it, I am aware that silver/grey sable colouring is not a fault. I was more referring to their noses, where they are not black, it is considered faulty. I don't know if this is the case for AKC as I've only shown my dogs under SV judges and those are the standards that I am familiar with. 

The dogs in question might have papers but they are far from what I would consider being worthy of the breed and it's a shame that people keep watering the breed down to make a quick buck or two.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JenH1125 said:


> Wow you people really only read/listen or hear what you want before you start with you attacks don’t you.
> What I said was the pedigree photo she texted me is hard to see because of photo quality. It is very clearly AKC papers and the second one the one you all are *SOOOOOO CONVINCED *can’t possibly be a purebred GSD is registered and comes up on AKC’s searchable database.
> I’m not giving you people the specific information because you are desperate to attack, and blind to the facts. And like other small business I support her, so I’m not giving you ammunition to attack her. Want more proof.... here’s another breeder doing the same thing. All pure blooded GSDs.... scroll down to the slideshow of photos and you’ll see tons of these dogs and NONE of them are mixed with husky or malamute.
> 
> ...


I think there is definitely worse stuff going on in the world than this Bellevue breeder. I also think there is better. My biggest bone to pick with bellevue is that they are obviously choosing colors they like to keep into their breeding program. Our of all of the dogs chosen to stay for a breeding program color should not be a criteria, in my opinion. So I suspect if they were really choosing based on quality of health, character, working ability, etc, there would be a little more variation in what they have there. But I don't know how long they have been at it and when I was breeding goats, and had a lot to choose from, all else being equal I kept the prettier or more flashy goat.

I own a white who I think is terrific. He is an absolutely great dog. 

The problem is--and I know it because I have experienced it!! When you are trying to choose an animal for a breeding program and you see a color you find strikingly beautiful, that really appeals to you, it may cause you to overlook or forgive some other fault. Or perhaps choose that animal over another one who has a slightly bettter SOMETHING (conformation, working (milking) ability, temperament, health) 

Regarding the first breeder...if they have to state in the add that their dogs have been DNA tested and are German shepherd that makes me really wonder. I've never seen that before. That makes me think either the dogs are bed so off standard so as not to be recognizable as German shepherds, which is not reputable breeding, or it's baloney and they are not purebred dogs.

Lastly, there are plenty of "purebred" German shepherds, with verifiable registered lineage, who would pass dna tests, that are NOT well bred or suitable for breeding. "Purebred" is NOT a reason to breed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bellevue is selling German Shepherds mixed with what they call white Suisse shepherds, Berger Blanc Swisse. I don’t know if that is considered purebred or not. The $900 dogs were from a different breeder.

I don’t see anything wrong with getting a pet line dog if that is what someone wants. Pet lines are often so far removed from breed standard, they aren’t technically well bred. I don’t see any point in arguing this, but the dog I saw that was supposedly a purebred GSD was not. 

Arguing or calling people names on a message board is not going to change anyone’s opinions about purebred or well bred dogs.

BTW, $900 is unusually cheap for a purebred, well bred dog. Prices usually run $2,000-3500.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

JenH1125 said:


> Wow you people really only read/listen or hear what you want before you start with you attacks don’t you.
> What I said was the pedigree photo she texted me is hard to see because of photo quality. It is very clearly AKC papers and the second one the one you all are *SOOOOOO CONVINCED *can’t possibly be a purebred GSD is registered and comes up on AKC’s searchable database.
> I’m not giving you people the specific information because you are desperate to attack, and blind to the facts. And like other small business I support her, so I’m not giving you ammunition to attack her. Want more proof.... here’s another breeder doing the same thing. All pure blooded GSDs.... scroll down to the slideshow of photos and you’ll see tons of these dogs and NONE of them are mixed with husky or malamute.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a schill.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I looked at Wolfgang. They are mixing lines. We don’t breeder bash, so I won’t, but this explains what they are doing.

_ I have been asked several times now if we breed east German or West German or what lines we breed, my answer is that we don't breed a specific line, that our dogs do have some old Ddr lines, some old american, some Western and some Eastern, yet that is not what is important to us. What is important is the German Shepherd as a whole, that we breed for a sound temperament, a good strong healthy structure and a dog with a high intelligence, we also do like the different colors and coats the breed has to offer a, which to us is just the icing on the cake, but here at Wolfgang Haus we breed for the total package_.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

I was perusing the Hoobly ad's Facebook page- Baughman German Shepherd (their genuine website is defunct) and what stood out to me very significantly was the pictures of all the pups in each litter that were stamped very heavily with that rare marking. And I says to myself.. "Self, if that marking is so so rare in purebred shepherds, then how are the genetics here so potently creating many examples in each litter and therefore how has it remained rare?" Whatever color genetics the dams are bringing to the table are just being overwritten by this rarity that is somehow expressing so dominantly in this breeder's program? 

/rhetorical question


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes, lots of “rare“ colors there.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Black is the most recessive color in shepherds. It is very easy to find if it is what’s your are looking for. The most common color(s) are the Black and Tans, which are recessive to sables. All of this is to say that none of the colors found in shepherds are rare. They are all quite easy to find. Any breeder telling you different shouldn’t be trusted.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

cmacc said:


> I've never heard of a silver sable wolf mask or read anything that references it, I am aware that silver/grey sable colouring is not a fault. I was more referring to their noses, where they are not black, it is considered faulty. I don't know if this is the case for AKC as I've only shown my dogs under SV judges and those are the standards that I am familiar with.
> 
> The dogs in question might have papers but they are far from what I would consider being worthy of the breed and it's a shame that people keep watering the breed down to make a quick buck or two.


I don’t know what SV is, but AKC doesn’t fault for this face marking. Technically the color is silver sable, the mask is called a reverse mask. A reverse mask is any mask on the GSD where the entire muzzle isn’t black. Some GSD people who are enthusiasts call this specific type of reverse mask, the ‘wolf mask‘ because it gives the dogs a wolf like appearance.
I get it that people on here love GSDs and no one is encouraging fraud. But there is a large minority of people and breeders who promote these colors in the breed, and they do so taking the same care and precautions for health and temperament as the breeders who breed for standard.
In the history of the GSD, these markings were there originally. Lighter colors were even favored for working dogs. The very first GSD line even had a pure white on dog. During WWII, Germany intentionally bred the lighter colors out in favor of dark colored dogs and saddlebacks because they would be harder to see at night (therefore better) for military and police purposes. 
It’s actually pretty interesting to go back and learn the history of the colors. And there are a lot of GSD color variations that are pb, great quality dogs, that no, can’t win in a show ring because of their colors. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad dog or irresponsible to breed them because they don’t conform to show standards. 










I love German Shepherds. Everything about them, their intelligence, their personality, size, body form, everything. I don’t think any other dog even compares imo. I also think huskies and malamutes are beautiful dogs, but I would never want one. I’m not fond of their high drives and urge to run. I don’t want to breed GSDs and I don’t want to show them or compete with them, and I don’t want to spend over $1000 for a family pet that even my cats and koi are going to outlive. And there are a lot of responsible knowledgeable breeders who care about the breed, selling healthy, genetically sound, wonderful dogs, but aren’t breeding based on expensive showy pedigree.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Honestly, papers don’t mean much of anything. It’s so easy to lie to get papers proving a dog is “purebred” when he or she clearly isn’t. People do it all the time to scam others. And as others have said already, even being purebred doesn’t mean well bred. These dogs are so obviously mixes to me that it seems truly sad someone can still defend them being purebred. That said, if by some insane miracle these dogs truly are purebred, any person that breeds them automatically becomes irresponsible and disreputable. These dogs are not recognizable as GSDs and they are vastly out of standard. Sorry. The truth hurts sometimes.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Future Stud lol:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Those ”expensive showy pedigrees” are the reason many of us bought our dogs. Pedigrees aren’t expensive. Well bred dogs can be.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

JenH1125 said:


> I don’t know what SV is, but AKC doesn’t fault for this face marking. Technically the color is silver sable, the mask is called a reverse mask. A reverse mask is any mask on the GSD where the entire muzzle isn’t black. Some GSD people who are enthusiasts call this specific type of reverse mask, the ‘wolf mask‘ because it gives the dogs a wolf like appearance.
> I get it that people on here love GSDs and no one is encouraging fraud. But there is a large minority of people and breeders who promote these colors in the breed, and they do so taking the same care and precautions for health and temperament as the breeders who breed for standard.
> In the history of the GSD, these markings were there originally. Lighter colors were even favored for working dogs. The very first GSD line even had a pure white on dog. During WWII, Germany intentionally bred the lighter colors out in favor of dark colored dogs and saddlebacks because they would be harder to see at night (therefore better) for military and police purposes.
> It’s actually pretty interesting to go back and learn the history of the colors. And there are a lot of GSD color variations that are pb, great quality dogs, that no, can’t win in a show ring because of their colors. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad dog or irresponsible to breed them because they don’t conform to show standards.
> ...


Did you say you’ve been involved with German shepherds for 15 years and you don’t know what the SV is?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Uh oh. I see a thread closure in our future.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I'd be interested to see color DNA testing and mitochondrial/paternal DNA results from the "purebred dogs". The reverse mask in GSDs cannot be tested for currently. So it would be interesting to see if a color test on any of these dogs results in a pattern that can be tested for. If so they would certainly be mixed. I'm not familiar with huskies and their genetics so I'm unsure if their markings can be tested for. 

And Jen you are invested in these dogs and obviously don't want to hear contradictory statements. But it's a scam plain and simple. If you're happy with the scam by all means buy a puppy. But you're supporting the same issue that causes silver labs, merle french bull dogs, several other color variations that are recognized as never having been in breeds that are suddenly cropping up in registered purebred dogs. I imagine it won't be long before we start seeing merle registered GSDs with claims that it's been hidden underneath white dogs this entire time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JenH1125 said:


> Technically the color is silver sable


Not. Sable is sable. Period.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

@LuvShepherds $900, is the most I as an adult or my family growing up have ever paid for a German Shepherd. Yes I know that some lines sell for gobs more money. But that is sooo unrealistic for normal middle class families to pay for a pet. 

The most expensive before now was my last dog Sebastian, I think I paid no more than $600 for him but that was 15 years ago. That breeder was good, local to me, showed her dogs, had awards, gave me all of his history and the dogs in his pedigree had lots of titles, not that it meant anything to me. I still have all his paperwork somewhere but it’s packed in the abyss of my garage after moving from divorce. But she also had a female silver sable with the markings were discussing that was young and she hadn’t started breeding her yet but intended too. That’s where I learned about these colors to begin with and fell in love with it.
Anyway, he had arthritis, not severe even, could’ve been controlled with medication but my now exhusband just took him while I was at work and put him down.








He was 12. Probably with treatment, and better judgement in choosing a husband, he would’ve probably lived to be at least 14-15. My point being he was the best dog, loyal, smart, obedient, well socialized, playful, beautiful example of the breed. He was incredible with my twins, which I had after he was around 2. Undeniably the best dog I’ve ever had so far, and only $600.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Not. Sable is sable. Period.


Sable is technically a color pattern. Black tipped hairs. I’m not incorrect to say Sebastian was a tan sable or these are silver sable any more so than it is to clarify the colors of a bicolor or saddleback GSD. 🙄


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## cmacc (Jul 13, 2020)

@JenH1125 I know about mask colourings and faults, I was referring to their noses specifically. The sire/dam that you posted yesterday had predominantly pink noses which is a disqualifying fault (I even looked up the AKC and it's the same there). 

I know nothing about pedigrees, I know both my dogs have decent pedigrees but I didn't buy them based on lines, I more so bought into their breeders and they are worth every cent I paid even thou my male is not a desirable colour for me (bi-colour, just not what I was looking for but after having a BYB dog I learned the importance of a reputable breeder and those who breed with purpose.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bicolor is genetically different then tan and black. Silver and tan in reference to sable are descriptive.



Color Genetics in German Shepherds


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

If you are using the AKC as your proof of these being purebreds you should do some reading about the AKC. Just google AKC is a fraud. The AKC just wants money like most organizations.

And did any mods or admins do an IP check?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

JenH1125 said:


> @LuvShepherds $900, is the most I as an adult or my family growing up have ever paid for a German Shepherd. Yes I know that some lines sell for gobs more money. But that is sooo unrealistic for normal middle class families to pay for a pet.
> 
> The most expensive before now was my last dog Sebastian, I think I paid no more than $600 for him but that was 15 years ago. That breeder was good, local to me, showed her dogs, had awards, gave me all of his history and the dogs in his pedigree had lots of titles, not that it meant anything to me. I still have all his paperwork somewhere but it’s packed in the abyss of my garage after moving from divorce. But she also had a female silver sable with the markings were discussing that was young and she hadn’t started breeding her yet but intended too. That’s where I learned about these colors to begin with and fell in love with it.
> Anyway, he had arthritis, not severe even, could’ve been controlled with medication but my now exhusband just took him while I was at work and put him down.
> ...


Buying a dog isn't something I do on impulse. It is generally something I save money for over time as I research. That is how I believe it should be done. The last one I bought from my savings. Nothing against you personally, but if you don't have that amount in savings or the ability to save money, you should reevaluate your financial situation before considering a dog. I believe everyone should be able to enjoy having a dog in their life. I don't believe you should be taking on a dog if you aren't in a financially sound position. It is not fair to the dog, who will probably be the first to suffer when hard times come. If you can't save 200 a month for 10 months to year to afford a quality dog, how do you plan to care the dog you get? The first year of my dogs definitely averaged more than that per month. I spent another 500-900 on my puppy outside of the sale price. That was before he came home. I will tell you that showing dogs, having an akc registration, and doing health tests are a good start. It by no means is the whole story. Those are things you should look for in most breeds. There is no way a breeder is titling those dogs in any show ring. You have had German shepherds,or dogs you thought were, in your life for a long time. However, based on what you have said here you are are not educated on the breed. I would advise you to find a reputable source of information on the breed to study. I would not trust facebook for information.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Here is an example of how a dog could have papers as purebred but not really be:

The breeder has a purebred GSD dam. The neighbor’s have a purebred malamute. Either with or without said breeder’s knowledge, the malamute gets to the dam and puppies are born. Well breeder ALSO has a purebred GSD stud. So what does breeder do? She tells AKC that her purebred male is the sire of the litter. Boom. Pups are all registered as purebred when they’re 50% malamute.

Then one of the male pups has the markings and coloring the breeder is after, so she keeps him back and breeds him to a purebred female GSD. These pups are now 75% GSD and 25% malamute, but again registered as purebred GSD because of the mixup one generation ago. Now the breeder keeps back yet another male with the markings and color they like, breed him to a purebred GSD female, and those are the pups in question. Still mixes, but they have a “paper trail” of being purebred GSDs going a few generations back. Doesn’t mean they’re purebred. It means someone lied intentionally, or truly were unknowledgeable and shouldn’t have bred.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Buying a dog isn't something I do on impulse. It is generally something I save money for over time as I research. That is how I believe it should be done. The last one I bought from my savings. Nothing against you personally, but if you don't have that amount in savings or the ability to save money, you should reevaluate your financial situation before considering a dog. I believe everyone should be able to enjoy having a dog in their life. I don't believe you should be taking on a dog if you aren't in a financially sound position. It is not fair to the dog, who will probably be the first to suffer when hard times come. If you can't save 200 a month for 10 months to year to afford a quality dog, how do you plan to care the dog you get? The first year of my dogs definitely averaged more than that per month. I spent another 500-900 on my puppy outside of the sale price. That was before he came home. I will tell you that showing dogs, having an akc registration, and doing health tests are a good start. It by no means is the whole story. Those are things you should look for in most breeds. There is no way a breeder is titling those dogs in any show ring. You have had German shepherds,or dogs you thought were, in your life for a long time. However, based on what you have said here you are are not educated on the breed. I would advise you to find a reputable source of information on the breed to study. I would not trust facebook for information.


LOL! Being financial sound and responsible means as single mother I make The smart choice NOT to spend $2000-$5000+ of my hard saved money on a family pet that will probably die before my kids move out of my house. Sorry not sorry. I’m more than capable of having a dog. I love them and they are undoubtedly well cared for and loved members of my family.... but reality is dogs aren’t worth that much money to me. Just like I would never _*buy*_ a cat (I have 2) and I would never pay more than $200 for one of my koi (I have 10). Yeah, I certainly know I can, I know if I wanted to save and save and splurge on a $10000 import direct from Japan, I could, but I have better things to spend my money on.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JenH1125 said:


> My point being he was the best dog, loyal, smart, obedient, well socialized, playful, beautiful example of the breed.


The best dog I ever had the privilege to know was Sabi. She had no papers, came from a slug of a human being. I get it. But I cannot  justify using one great dog to continue living in ignorance and denial when the simple truth is she was an anomaly. She is the reason I learn, so I can do better, be the person she believed I was.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

This thread is a mess..

JenH - At the end of the day, it is YOUR money and YOU have to be ok with what YOU spend it on, but $900 for a puppy that is so far out of standard is actually really steep. I might have missed it, but do they have OFA ratings for these dogs' hips? At minimum, I'd want those and DM testing with verifiable AKC registration on both parents to justify that kind of price tag. I understand that not everyone can spend a ton on a puppy purchase, but the investment on the health tests would pay for themselves in the long run..


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

GatorDog said:


> This thread is a mess..
> 
> JenH - At the end of the day, it is YOUR money and YOU have to be ok with what YOU spend it on, but $900 for a puppy that is so far out of standard is actually really steep. I might have missed it, but do they have OFA ratings for these dogs' hips? At minimum, I'd want those and DM testing with verifiable AKC registration on both parents to justify that kind of price tag. I understand that not everyone can spend a ton on a puppy purchase, but the investment on the health tests would pay for themselves in the long run..


It really is a mess. 
I get people being passionate especially if they are heavily involved in breeding or showing or handling whatever.... but just because I’m not does warrant the attitude and condescension between both threads.
To answer your question tho, yes their registration with AKC is verified, and the DM and dysplasia.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's a mess because it's very obvious that this is an unethical breeder and you are very strongly arguing against that, stating along the way that a lot of knowledgeable people are just ignorant. 

If you want a byb dog with hung papers, that's fine. It seems that your budget is going to keep you from getting a dog from a reputable breeder anyhow. Just understand that the mess created here is just people trying to advocate FOR you, against unethical breeding practices.

Enjoy your dog!


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think there is definitely worse stuff going on in the world than this Bellevue breeder. I also think there is better. My biggest bone to pick with bellevue is that they are obviously choosing colors they like to keep into their breeding program. Our of all of the dogs chosen to stay for a breeding program color should not be a criteria, in my opinion. So I suspect if they were really choosing based on quality of health, character, working ability, etc, there would be a little more variation in what they have there. But I don't know how long they have been at it and when I was breeding goats, and had a lot to choose from, all else being equal I kept the prettier or more flashy goat.
> 
> I own a white who I think is terrific. He is an absolutely great dog.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Purebred dos not mean well bred!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'll say the same thing I tried to tone things down in the original thread.

1/Jen, no one can answer your original questions, so stop looking for it here. If the breeder can't make a guess, NO ONE can.

2/ People are concerned you're paying for a mixed breed or non-conforming GSD and worried about the dog's health.

You are convinced you're getting a reputable breeder, a sound dog in the "rare" color of your choice and a fair price. NO ONE is changing anyone's mind. ****, you already have a date to pick out your pup.

3/ So stop. You don't need to defend yourself. Use your decades and dozens of GSD experience to comment positively on other threads and be a positive contributor. Let us know how your pup is coming along in training and development in a few week.

4/ So I say good luck to you and I hope the pup turns out to be everything you dream it will be. Seriously, good luck ....


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@JenH1125 one idea that i haven’t seen suggested yet.... without getting into the purebred status of your dogs parents, since the coloring of the puppies IS common in huskies and malamutes - perhaps those breeders/owners/enthusiasts would be able to give you a more accurate prediction of their adult color. or maybe one of the other rare colored gsd breeders that you linked to can help.

it’s unfortunate that your breeder can’t provide this information for you, that’s a part of their job.

from google: _Most husky puppies are born with darker coats than they'll have at maturity. If they're born without a mask, however, it won't develop in adulthood. Any masks or other white markings are the result of pigment restriction. Virtually all Siberian huskies inherit the graying gene, so expect your puppy's mask to change._

again, not saying the puppies are huskies, but it could be a starting point in searching for your answer...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@JenH1125 We get it that you are on a budget and you want a pet dog for you and your family. No one is arguing with that. My first well bred GSD was under $1,000 but it was a long time ago. None of my dogs have been very expensive to own. Then I got a dog who had bloat and allergies,both of which cost a lot in vet bills to treat. Be prepared, owning a dog can be very expensive.

You got yourself into trouble in the closed thread by trying to teach us about colors and pedigrees. I have a suggestion if you are planning to ask for any kind of help with your pet dog, and I can guarantee you will need something, that rather than arguing with opinions you don’t agree with, realize most of us spend a lot of time studying the breed and working with the breed. We love German Shepherds. Some here are breeders, or trainers, handlers and experts. Some do very advanced dogs sports. Some are just pet owners. We all learn from each other.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JenH1125 said:


> It really is a mess.
> I get people being passionate especially if they are heavily involved in breeding or showing or handling whatever.... but just because I’m not does warrant the attitude and condescension between both threads.
> To answer your question tho, yes their registration with AKC is verified, and the DM and dysplasia.


The single most important role a dog will ever have is that of a pet and companion. The criteria for that role should be more not less. 
Enjoy your dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP-- you said absolutely the whole issue in your other thread. You said two things

"I sought out this breeder because I wanted this color"

then you said

"I only want to know which puppy to pick which will grow up with the specific mask I want" (paraphrase)

Which means, you did NOT select your breeder or puppy based on the merits of said breeder, merits of dogs, suitability of the match, how those dogs have been proven in competition, what working jobs dogs from this breeder have proven themselves in.




LuvShepherds said:


> Bellevue is selling German Shepherds mixed with what they call white Suisse shepherds, Berger Blanc Swisse. I don’t know if that is considered purebred or not. The $900 dogs were from a different breeder.
> 
> I don’t see anything wrong with getting a pet line dog if that is what someone wants. Pet lines are often so far removed from breed standard, they aren’t technically well bred. I don’t see any point in arguing this, but the dog I saw that was supposedly a purebred GSD was not.
> 
> ...


AKC registers FCI BBS as white GSD.

So, if they are importing dogs then breeding and registering with AKc they are not really mixed breed dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My father in law had a saying about women LOL. "Son, I know she's pretty, but can you LIVE with her?"

We joke about this a lot.

And, kinda relevant here. Maybe you get the color you want--dog looks like what you want it to look like, but can you LIVE with it? Is it a nervebag? Is it inappropriately aggressive? Is it a health disaster?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Of course anyone is welcome to spend their money in any way they want. It’s just frustrating to people that are passionate about the breed and care about preserving it to see people supporting this kind of awful breeding of “purebred” German shepherds.

If you want a dog that’s more friendly, has floppy ears, is bigger or smaller, less driven, has less energy, has a specific color out of standard, _choose a different breed._ There are hundreds of them. Don’t water down, taint, or ruin this breed because you want something that they aren’t meant to be. Go elsewhere, choose a different breed. That’s why people are so passionate about these dogs not being labeled as German shepherds when they clearly aren’t and why people are so passionate about saying this breeder isn’t reputable. It’s infuritaing to see people supporting and defending people that couldn’t give less of a rip about the breed we all care so much about.

I hope you enjoy your puppy, as every single person should enjoy their pet. I hope your puppy lives a long, healthy, temperament-issue-free life. These puppies deserve just as good of homes as any other dog deserves. That’s not the problem here.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

People on this forum like all kinds of different dogs. Half of us wouldn't want to own the dogs that the other half of us love, and that's fine. 

But when the showline peeps and the sport peeps and the working dog peeps are all giving an identical response.... "*RUN!*"..... well..... chances are there's a reason or twelve.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Kind off topic but I guess relevant ... is there a “master list” of registered German Shepherds. For instance, I’m based in Holland and my pup is the American version of Akc registered (and going generations back) - but is there an international way to check that? For instance, I saw that his half brothers were being sold (for double what the other pups were being sold for in Holland mind you haha) to a very well known breeder in the states and I wonder how that works with people in America checking their lineage? I’ve probably worded this wrong - so hopefully someone understands what I mean.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Pytheis said:


> Uh oh. I see a thread closure in our future.





Sabis mom said:


> The best dog I ever had the privilege to know was Sabi. She had no papers, came from a slug of a human being. I get it. But I cannot  justify using one great dog to continue living in ignorance and denial when the simple truth is she was an anomaly. She is the reason I learn, so I can do better, be the person she believed I was.


Ah! What a great time to close this (mess) uh, thread. Well done, Sabi.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

WNGD said:


> I'll say the same thing I tried to tone things down in the original thread.
> 
> 1/Jen, no one can answer your original questions, so stop looking for it here. If the breeder can't make a guess, NO ONE can.
> 
> ...


1. At no point in any thread did I ask a single person for their opinion on my breeder. Frankly, you’re right, I couldn’t care less what your opinion is as to the purity of the dog I’m buying. I don’t know any of you from Adam, and an internet dog forum and cutesy screen names don’t make you anything to me. For all I know half of you could be some internet posers sitting half naked in your living rooms surrounded by 30 cats.

I responded to this original poster because he actually asked specifically about my actual breeder....I gave him my honest detailed opinion to answer his question and what he does with that I also couldn’t care less.

You all are the ones who created the lynch mob responses directed at me. Your condescending, and insulting methods of communication are why I am defending myself. You don’t think you’re condescending? Why don’t you go back and just read #3.

And make no mistake.... my actual one and only question I asked yesterday... I didn’t come to this thread looking for an answer to it, and after seeing the way this group’s veteran members behave and treat people. I wouldn’t ask for your advice at this point if you were the last people on earth.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

JenH1125 said:


> 1. At no point in any thread did I ask a single person for their opinion on my breeder. Frankly, you’re right, I couldn’t care less what your opinion is as to the purity of the dog I’m buying. I don’t know any of you from Adam, and an internet dog forum and cutesy screen names don’t make you anything to me. For all I know half of you could be some internet posers sitting half naked in your living rooms surrounded by 30 cats.
> 
> I responded to this original poster because he actually asked specifically about my actual breeder....I gave him my honest detailed opinion to answer his question and what he does with that I also couldn’t care less.
> 
> ...


Jen.

You’re obviously very bright, well versed and well written, but print isn’t the easiest vehicle in conveyance.

I’ve written some business emails, letters, articles, GSD forum posts, et al, that created responses that made my head spin. Gotta admit, that was not my intent, but in print form only, man, I came to understand the interpretations.

Some folks genuinely had interesting and not off the mark responses here.

There is absolutely value in this forum and it’s contributors, but at times, on this forum, in print only ..... You're juggling chickens n chainsaws!

Continued success to you and your boys and best of luck in whatever decision you make.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

JenH1125 said:


> Hi. I posted earlier today asking for help choosing between puppies with rare markings and got a ton of backlash in this community against the rare coloring and refusal to believe they’re purebred. If you do the research you’ll see other breeders charging alot more for these rare markings. The first time I ever saw a silver sable GSD like hers was at the breeder I bought my last dog from, and I was just blown away by how beautiful these dogs are._ Don’t be discouraged by the naysayers here that claim it is impossible to have a purebred GSD with these markings. _
> 
> As for the breeder you are asking about. I am actually in the process of purchasing a dog from her. She sent me the AKC pedigree for both parents of the litter in the add you posted. I had no problem looking up the Sire, unfortunately she sent me the images in text and I can’t quite read all the identifying info for the Dam to be able to look her info up.
> 
> ...


No such thing as a “rare” color in GSD’s they have a standard for a reason. Any beeeder who says they breed for color especially a so called rare color is unethical and just to charge the un educated buyer more money.
You now say you have the pedigree of sire and dam but you have an excuse on why you can’t post it. Doesn’t matter to me if you do or don’t. If a breeder of GSD can’t follow or won’t follow the breed standard they are only out to make money and charge ridiculous amount for a pup. Unethical to me.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Wonder if the OP will DNA her pup to see if it’s pure GSD. No puppy is bad it’s the breeders and this is an example breed for color only as the OP stated does nothing for the breed. This breed is dwindling because of breeders like this. Makes me so angry.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

“*It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled*.” – Mark Twain.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

JenH1125 said:


> You all are the ones who created the lynch mob responses directed at me. Your condescending, and insulting methods of communication are why I am defending myself. You don’t think you’re condescending? Why don’t you go back and just read #3.


You actually think this is condescending?
"3/ So stop. You don't need to defend yourself. Use your decades and dozens of GSD experience to comment positively on other threads and be a positive contributor. Let us know how your pup is coming along in training and development in a few week."

If so, you're now officially beyond help. Now that's condescending


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

WNGD said:


> You actually think this is condescending?
> "3/ So stop. You don't need to defend yourself. Use your decades and dozens of GSD experience to comment positively on other threads and be a positive contributor. Let us know how your pup is coming along in training and development in a few week."
> 
> If so, you're now officially beyond help. Now that's condescending


Yea. Agreed. Not a whole lot of condescension there.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

JenH1125 said:


> ...................The only color listed with AKC that is disqualified is white, but white is not a disqualified color with UKC.


So if I had an AKC registered German Shepherd Dog that looked like a poodle that would really be special and you would buy it? Does the breeder have any that meet the standard for color? White is NOT acceptable in Germany nor is a pink nose. The breed warden would not allow them to be registered with the SV. There is not an SV judge that would accept those pictured with the exception of one or two - and are those even her dogs? I don't like nor trust people who screw around with the breed standards.


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