# Questions about breeder



## GSDWVU (Jul 30, 2012)

I found a breeder that I like and would like to get some second opinions before I make any final decisions. I am not not looking for a working dog prospect with high drives or a show dog. The dog will not be bred or titled. I am really just looking for a healthy family dog that will be great with kids. I don't want the dog to have a ton of energy and want a clear on/off switch. I am also looking for something in the $1000 range. I found this breeder to be a great fit, as he is only about 15 minutes from my home and he has a puppy from the current litter (link below) that he is selling for $1000. He is selling it cheaper because the puppy is so small. It's the puppy with the aqua collar, and it's definitely smaller, but he said that it should top out at about 75 pounds. He also isn't going to offer the health guarantee. Any thoughts on the breeder, pedigree, or buying the smaller puppy?

Klaus x Della Litter - Jan 2014


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

I didn't need to look any further after "No Health" guarantee. I would move on. His size does not affect anything, some puppies develop slower and he could even end up being the biggest in the litter. The fact that he will not be coming with a health guarantee instantly makes me run the other way.

Ps, you will not find a GS puppy without high energy  They will all need plenty of exercise every day regardless of pedigree.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

The reasons you listed (price, proximity and timing) are not things that make a breeder a great fit. The things that make a breeder a great fit are the dogs they produce, their goals for their breeding program, etc. You are looking for a lower-energy dog, I would start with finding breeders who produce the kind of dog you're looking for. GSD's are not a one-size-fits-all.

I would be VERY wary of the breeder not giving any sort of health guarantee. The fact that he charges up to $3500 from untitled parents is a little mind-bending. I can't comment on selling the small puppy (who the breeder still thinks is going to mature within the standard) for cheaper, but the whole thing smells very fishy to me. The fact that he takes deposits online is also off-putting. Any breeder I would want to deal with would want to get to know ME and if I would be a good fit first. I would pass.


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

I also really do not like how on their page, they really only mention "great pigment" as an accomplishment..... That also makes me cringe. Though some people are big on color, a good breeder advertises that last, since that's the least important in the development of the puppy. Since its the first and almost only thing advertised....red flag. 


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> The fact that he charges up to $3500 from untitled parents is a little mind-bending.



I'm glad I'm not the only one who scratched their head. What also baffled me is it isn't a strong titled line... there are several untitled dogs in both lines, and a couple 'fair' hips


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

"mind bending" is an understatement!!!!! $3500 for pups of a "working" show cross???? neither parent with any credentials? 

On the Sire: his mother is of very ???? pedigree first 3 generations then a working and show mix....very unfocused pedigree....looks to be just dogs thrown together randomly.....

Dam: all WGSL - probably all titled as the dam carries the same kennel name as dam and from a titled male....

But $3500????????????? I guess people are paying that for "designer" mutts too!

Lee


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## GSDWVU (Jul 30, 2012)

I have spoke with the breeder a good bit through email and there are several reasons as to why I think it would be a good fit for me. I agree that the proximity should not be the first priority, but I do think that it will be nice to be close for help with training, which he offers. The timing of the puppy is not a concern for me either, as I'm prepared to wait if things don't go well when I visit next week. The price however, is a concern as I am not willing to pay over $1000. I do agree that the $3500 puppies seem to be way overpriced though. As far as the energy level goes, I am familiar with the amount of energy a german shepherd has, and I'm okay with that. I just prefer not to own one who has an endless amount of energy like some of the ones from working lines that I hear about. I would definitely like to have a health guarantee, but most of the ones I've seen for $1000 don't come with one. Choosing a breeder has a lot to do with a "gut feeling" and although everyone has made valid points, I still seem to be getting one from this breeder. I will know for sure next week when I visit the kennel. This "gut feeling" hasn't been easy for me to find, as I have made several calls and sent several emails to well respected breeders in the area and struggled to get responses from them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree is a bit of mash up. 
$3,500 , come on , dogs that I have held back because they were pick , socialized, drives promoted, tracked, developed handler responsiveness, and prevented problems , prelimed and guaranteed to certify / graduate service dogs are that and less ! 
that price tag is huge . for what ?

Maybe the breeders you contacted are so busy doing the day to day - and need to prioritize -- $1,000 and under ? - place a phone call , much quicker than answering emails - get an immediate response. 

The breeder is offering the pup for $1,000 . They must have reservations -- no health guarantees. I wouldn't sell a dog till I was 110% sure that the dog is healthy . Until then they are my responsibility and I will deal with whatever comes -- and if they turn out good , they are available to a great home . 

Sometimes there is small and then there is failure to thrive .


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

I know it really isn't what you wanted to hear, but they really do have a lot of the red flags of bad breeding programs. Hopefully a visit will help you better. 

Because a few in the lines had 'fair' hips, I would require a genetic health agreement. In my opinion, 'fair' shouldn't even be bred. I understand that even 'excellent' can throw bad hips, but 'fair' is just flirting with disaster. 

Maybe just keep in mind what we are mentioning and bring it up on your visit?

Where are you located? Perhaps we can aid you in your search?

My 7 month old male came from highly titled Czech Military K-9, with every dog in his line being titled / great hips, etc. His mother wasn't titled, but her entire past line was and she had all her health credentials in order. I received an extensive health guarantee that not only covered all the common GSD problems like hips but even small things like a retained testicle, ears not going up, etc etc. He was $1200. Moral of the story, you just gotta search longggg and hard! (I think I got a deal! Prolly because mother wasn't titled). It isn't easy, I think for three weeks I saw nothing but $2000-$3000 dogs but I eventually found my match!


Regardless, good luck! If it doesn't work out, there are so many knowledgeable people on this site who can put you in the right direction for breeders around you.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

LoveEcho said:


> I would be VERY wary of the breeder not giving any sort of health guarantee. The fact that he charges up to $3500 from untitled parents is a little mind-bending.


I seriously cannot believe that this person is charging $3,500 for puppies from untitled parents. 

A well bred working line GSD with titles and health guarantees will cost you anywhere between $1,200-$2,500 and a well bred showline GSD with titles and health guarantees will cost you anywhere between $1,500-$3,500


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NO IT IS NOT "Because a few in the lines had 'fair' hips, I would require a genetic health agreement. In my opinion, 'fair' shouldn't even be bred. I understand that even 'excellent' can throw bad hips, but 'fair' is just flirting with disaster. " So very wrong .


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

Before reading the other posts I took a look at the website. $3500 for a puppy from UNTITLED parents?? Holy Cow!! 

I only looked at the site to be curious, but I had already said no way after I saw that he wouldn't do the health guarantee. A smaller puppy isn't uncommon and wouldn't affect the puppy. Unless he knows there is a medical problem in which he reduced her price considerably and voided the guarantee.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

carmspack said:


> NO IT IS NOT "Because a few in the lines had 'fair' hips, I would require a genetic health agreement. In my opinion, 'fair' shouldn't even be bred. I understand that even 'excellent' can throw bad hips, but 'fair' is just flirting with disaster. " So very wrong .




Why? A "fair" hip is still a normal hip, no dysplasia? Is it the word? Would you breed to a "fast-normal" same thing. 


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't see breeding a passing hip rating as "flirting with disaster", but whatever floats your boat.

OP, these puppies are not worth $3500. You can find puppies of the same, if not better quality for less than half of that price.

Also, if you posted your location there is a possibility that we could direct you to a better suited litter.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The no health guarantee wouldn't bother me-not sure why you would sell a smaller pup for less-but my one thought in reading this thread is -if you take your time you can find really good dog in rescue-just a thought


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## Scout's Mama (Oct 30, 2013)

Help me understand, is it also responsible to sell an adult with taped ears and full papers (for breeding??) for $3,500. I've seen plenty of adults for that, but trained/titled/proven... Does this also seem odd to anyone?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSDWVU said:


> I have spoke with the breeder a good bit through email and there are several reasons as to why I think it would be a good fit for me. I agree that the proximity should not be the first priority, *but I do think that it will be nice to be close for help with training, which he offers.* The timing of the puppy is not a concern for me either, as I'm prepared to wait if things don't go well when I visit next week. The price however, is a concern as *I am not willing to pay over $1000.* I do agree that the $3500 puppies seem to be way overpriced though. As far as the energy level goes, I am familiar with the amount of energy a german shepherd has, and I'm okay with that. I just prefer not to own one who has an endless amount of energy like some of the ones from working lines that I hear about. I would definitely like to have a health guarantee, but most of the ones I've seen for $1000 don't come with one. Choosing a breeder has a lot to do with a "gut feeling" and although everyone has made valid points, I still seem to be getting one from this breeder. I will know for sure next week when I visit the kennel. This "gut feeling" hasn't been easy for me to find, as I have made several calls and sent several emails to well respected breeders in the area and struggled to get responses from them.


Have you seen his training methods? Sometimes the best trainers aren't conveniently located. I travel two hours to train, I could train closer, but choose not to.
Because you don't want to pay over $1000, maybe you should look at rescues and support a rescue instead of a breeder that may be taking shortcuts. 
Most good breeders don't charge less than $1000, but there are a few. Instead of focusing on the initial cost, focus on what you'll be investing in the future. 
While you are researching keep socking away $ and you'll have another $500 before you know it. $1500 is a reasonable price for a well bred puppy.
This kennel is in Maryland? You should be able to find a few good breeders within a few hours drive.


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## GSDWVU (Jul 30, 2012)

The breeder said that the smaller puppy would still be vet checked, but of course, I would have to feel comfortable that it's just a smaller puppy and not an unhealthy one. I agree that the breeders prices are pretty crazy though. I am willing to walk away if I don't feel like it's a perfect match, and I will definitely express some of these concerns next week when I visit the kennel. A rescue dog was another option that I was considering, but wouldn't a questionable pedigree and no health guarantee seem like a much better option?

I'm located in western Maryland, so I'm open to suggestions if anyone knows of a puppy that may be a better fit for me.


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## GSDWVU (Jul 30, 2012)

I have not seen his training methods, but I hope to see them when I do the visit next week. Traveling two hours to get the best training, and paying $1500 for the dog seem like good ideas for most people, but they just aren't realistic for everyone. A rescue dog would probably be a better option for me than this.


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

carmspack said:


> NO IT IS NOT "Because a few in the lines had 'fair' hips, I would require a genetic health agreement. In my opinion, 'fair' shouldn't even be bred. I understand that even 'excellent' can throw bad hips, but 'fair' is just flirting with disaster. " So very wrong .



I think 'fair' is just barely 'passing' in my opinion. That's why I personally don't support it. Like, "Eh, not poor but not good." 

Some people feel 'fair' is good enough for them. That's fine. But not me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Some of the breeders I've talked to are more concerned about the overall hip production consistency of the lines they breed than getting that elusive OFA excellent rating. More important to know that there is a long history of passing hips, than breeding an OFA excellent dog, but whose pedigree, siblings and production is all over the place in terms of Hips. 

But you are right, we each have our own standard as to what we want or find acceptable. The best we can do is educate the members here, and let them make their own decision based on the information provided.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

My dog has HD in one hip and both her parents had excellent hips, so no way would I risk taking a dog from one with fair hips. It's a big enough gamble as it is, and trust me, having a dog who wants to be active but having to be super careful about what kind of activities they are doing can be a real bummer.

There are so many things I wanted to do with my dog that I can't do now.


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

blackshep said:


> My dog has HD in one hip and both her parents had excellent hips, so no way would I risk taking a dog from one with fair hips. It's a big enough gamble as it is, and trust me, having a dog who wants to be active but having to be super careful about what kind of activities they are doing can be a real bummer.
> 
> There are so many things I wanted to do with my dog that I can't do now.


I'm so sorry to hear that, I can't even imagine  


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When looking at hips, as Lucia pointed out, you have to look at more than just the ratings of the parents. What are the ratings of the siblings, the grandparents, their siblings. A fair dog whose pedigree shows consistently good/normal hip ratings is far better than an excellent who doesn't show that consistency in pedigree. Tough to get the information in the states because often only one or two in a litter are xrayed.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Is it common to have that large of a price difference from different dogs in the same litter?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GSDWVU said:


> A rescue dog was another option that I was considering, but wouldn't a questionable pedigree and no health guarantee seem like a much better option?


? How so. You either encouraging a questionable breeder or you save a rescue from a bad fate. I'd would and do go with rescue.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> ? How so. You either encouraging a questionable breeder or you save a rescue from a bad fate. I'd would and do go with rescue.


:thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

A dog that is OFA Fair is OFA Fair, could probably still pass OFA at 10 years old after being worked and trained for that long. Just b/c the dog is not Excellent does not mean it's more likely to produce or develop HD or that the dog is somehow still borderline or dysplastic even though it was rated clear. Passing hips are passing hips.


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