# (Sigh) My older dog is resource guarding my GSD pup



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

So we took our golden and our GSD pup for some off leash play with a few other dogs today(two were puppies of similar age to Ollie). It was the first time for Ollie playing with new dogs off leash, he was a little shy at first then got in the swing of things and started playing with one of the puppies.

Now our golden resource guards toys and food from other dogs but we've never had a problem with him "protecting" one of our other dogs before. Anytime another dog came near Ollie the golden would stop what he was doing and would butt in on the other dog and Ollie. He growled at one dog trying to play with Ollie and he snapped at another dog Ollie was just sniffing and hanging around, this dog was a puppy and wasn't doing anything wrong.

This all happened within the time frame of 10 minutes so we wern't just sitting back and watching it happen. I guess I am a complete idiot for not expecting my golden to react this way but he's never done this before... After he snapped at the other puppy we left right away and don't plan to ever bring him back.

I am just so depressed because we worked so hard at socializing Sam(the golden), he's been around tons of dogs, had multiple training classes and I'm just beyond frustrated with his aggression. He was a rescue probably from a backyard breeder so I guess maybe its just poor breeding and a temperament flaw?

Everyone I've tried to ask for help and advice with this either doesn't really help or says this is something that can't be helped and its all management. I do NILIF with him also but it doesn't seem to be helping any.

I'm just sad at the prospect that he'll never be able to run and be off leash around other dogs. It's very densely populated here and there's only one place we can safely take him but its two hours drive each way and gets ungodly hot in the summer so we can only go during the "colder" months.

Anyways I'm very sad and just needed to vent... There is the option of a private trainer but even with that I don't think I'll ever be able to trust him and I can't in good conscious re-home him with these issues. If I lived out in the country with land it wouldn't matter, I just don't have that luxury here.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have three dogs in the household and when the rough housing starts to get out of hand with two of them, the third steps in to stop it. It doesn't matter which two or one it is, they all do it. I'm not sure that the golden was so much resource guarding the puppy, but maybe protecting it? I had a lab that took my golden under his wing and the golden would hide behind him when he was scared. As the golden got older the lab let him grow up. How is the golden if you bring him by himself to the dog park?


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Agree with Llombardo. We have three dogs i the house and occasionally do sit my son's pit bull puppy. When any of them start getting too rambunctious playing Benny intervenes like the "fun police" He is the leader of our dog pack and feels he needs to correct the others when they get too amped up.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

True, I just thought that protecting and resource guarding weren't all together very different but Sam does love this pup a whole lot and at first Ollie was a little timid so maybe Sam picked up on that and went into guard mode.

The problem is he snapped at and scared the other puppy and I KNOW that he will bite that's why I got him out of there right away. He has bitten Ollie a couple times over a resource. We try and manage as best we can but we can't always predict what he will decide to guard... He snapped at my chi mix over a tiny piece of cardboard he found on the floor once. :shrug: Occasionally he will guard the water dish too and I can't exactly not keep water down. So that's kind of where I'm wondering if a trainer or behaviorist could help.

He's ok at the park as long as there are no toys involved, that's one reason we rarely take him and only when it's either empty or very few dogs. The park was pretty deserted today and when he growled at the other dog we moved to the other side which was empty. But he's not going anymore, it's just too much of a risk... I guess it'll just be Ollie who gets to have fun off leash. :/


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## Ageizm (Nov 11, 2012)

If the lab is well trained you should be able to layer in an E collar to correct the behavior, if your opposed to that go with a muzzle, if your opposed to that too, then yea looks like he'll be missing out. =(


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear you're having more problems with Sam.  I can understand your frustration at having to keep him out of 'fun zones'. Funny, since you were worried about protecting Ollie from him before, and now he's protecting Ollie. A personal trainer may be the way to go, but I agree that the dog park days are probably over for Sam. I don't like them and haven't ever gone to one... but I realize that a lot of people do like them and use them. I hope things improve for you!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> We try and manage as best we can but we can't always predict what he will decide to guard... He snapped at my chi mix over a tiny piece of cardboard he found on the floor once. :shrug: Occasionally he will guard the water dish too and I can't exactly not keep water down. So that's kind of where I'm wondering if a trainer or behaviorist could help.
> 
> :/


My golden was used to having all the toys in the house, then along came the GSD and she now wants all the toys to be hers. I can have 50 toys out and she will want the one he has. At first he was not happy with this turn of events, but I stayed on top of it and he now lets her have the toys and goes and gets another one. He has never guarded food, water, bones, or people. Goldens are a nice size dog, at least mine is, and I feel he is(which I didn't before)a good deterrent. I think some training is needed and probably sooner then later.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

There's a difference between resource guarding and protecting his puppy 
IMO it has nothing to do with him being a backyard bred dog or having bad breeding! 

Protecting a puppy is an instinctive behaviour, I used to go to a training class where they let all the dogs run around off lead - the dominant dog of the class would always "break up" dogs that were playing rough etc. Or if one of the puppies was getting "distressed " or harassed they would butt in too.
It was interesting to watch but I did not feel like my dog was safe in that environment so I stopped going.

For the moment I would not take the older dog to the off lead area when you take the pup your puppy needs to learn to cope out on his own too and not have his "big brother" as backup 
Sam may be better once puppy gets a bit older (I don't know how old your pup is) but then you have to watch that the 2 of them don't "gang up" on other dogs.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is the Golden ok with other dogs when the pup isn't there?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Mooch said:


> There's a difference between resource guarding and protecting his puppy
> IMO it has nothing to do with him being a backyard bred dog or having bad breeding!
> 
> Protecting a puppy is an instinctive behaviour, I used to go to a training class where they let all the dogs run around off lead - the dominant dog of the class would always "break up" dogs that were playing rough etc. Or if one of the puppies was getting "distressed " or harassed they would butt in too.
> ...


Thank you for the clarification! He just has such s long history of resource guarding that I just assumed he was amping it up another level.

He did snap at another dog(who was also a puppy) who then yelped and ran crying away and this pup was only standing near Ollie, she wasn't doing anything wrong. So that's kind of where I was going with the temperament problem... He didn't seem to be able to distinguish between a threat and a non-threat. He just wanted everybody to stay away from "his puppy" it seemed. He wasn't even interested in playing fetch his favorite game, he just stayed near Ollie the whole time.

But thank you, that does give me some hope that as my pup gets older that maybe Sam will feel less protective though because of his resource guarding issues I'm not sure I'll ever feel comfortable taking him anywhere off leash, he has gotten into two squabbles with other dogs over a ball. I'm just worried he's going to pull that with a bigger dog who will fight back and get himself or the other dog hurt.

If Sam just didn't want to share toys I'd be ok with that but the difference here and what some people don't seem to be understanding is that he will get aggressive and bite without much of a warning that I'm able to see... no snarling, growling just bam!

I will continue researching trainers/behaviorists around here and and maybe see if I can get an in home evaluation.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> If Sam just didn't want to share toys I'd be ok with that but the difference here and what some people don't seem to be understanding is that he will get aggressive and bite without much of a warning that I'm able to see... no snarling, growling just bam!


Watch him more closely because I can bet there is a warning. Watch his eyes, that is how I was able to tell mine wasn't happy. 95% of the time I was able to see the change, say something, and snap him back. The other 5% it went to a full snarl and growl, which was my fault because I didn't "see" it. Mine has never been in a fight(except when he was attacked as a puppy)and I think he would almost be sad if he hurt anything(he's just way to happy of a dog)I'm glad that mine doesn't do it anymore, because it isn't nice to see and who would believe a golden can look like that??? Well they can and you have a VERY short period to catch it.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Totally agree with llombardo usually they have a "tell"
Anything from tensing the whole body, staring, or even just a wrinkling of the brow. My first dog was very dog aggressive, we did a lot of work with her and yeah finding her "warning" was so important - once I had it I could mostly divert her before anything bad could happen. (with her it was 2 wrinkles would appear between her ears as she got attentive) toward another dog. 

With your golden "guarding" his puppy - he's not allowed to do that, while you are there it's YOUR responsibility not Sams to keep puppy safe. ATM Sam is taking leadership over both of you and in my book that's not acceptable. 
The fact that the snapped at the other puppy is bad but also - he snapped AT it - if he had have wanted to he could have grabbed it and shaken it in a split second. 
The puppy yelping and screaming and running away is also normal - it's how they defend themselves. It's letting the other dog know "I'm only a baby don't hurt me" - it sounds awful lol you'd think someone just cut their throat.

If I was you and I wanted to take both of them to the park together I'd get someone (ideally your partner if you have one) to go with you. One of you to watch over the puppy, the other one to take Sam on lead away from the puppies and just do some really basic walking and perhaps a few sits and drops (for food treats) - you demand Sams attention, he's supposed to look to you not the puppy.
If you are worried about him hurting another dog - get a muzzle - better safe than sorry and it will allow you to relax a little and not be so tense as he will pick up on that.
Even if you get him a "cute" pink muzzle 
I think getting a behaviourist or a trainer may be a good idea just to give you a bit more confidence in handling the situation - sometimes it's nice to have some "backup" someone that knows how dogs work and don't think that you are the worst person in the world because your dog happened to growl or bark. So many people at dog parks just have no idea and get all rude and offensive.
How old is your puppy?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Thank you, that is some great info!

I totally agree with you about Sam taking over things that are not his job, we have had this issue with him for awhile and that is why I've been doing NILIF with him! It worked beautifully as far as him respecting and obeying me goes but when it comes to other dogs he takes over again. I'm not sure how to teach him that he doesn't need to guard things/people/dogs... He does not resource guard with people and he obeys the leave it command, I'm just pulling my hair out trying to get that to translate to dogs as well. I don't think he should have to share but its totally unacceptable for him to take it to the level he does.

That's true also he's never aggressed with the intent to harm, I'm just worried about it someday escalating to that. He's actually a golden doodle and he has A LOT of hair on his face so it's difficult to read him, sometimes I can't even see that he's snarling because of his beard, LOL. The only thing I've been able to read so far is sometimes his body goes rigid otherwise it's very hard to pick up his signals. The good news is Ollie is learning his boundaries and what he can and can't do with Sam so there has been a lot less issues at home... We were incident free for a long time but then Sam snapped at Ollie last night when Ollie was invading his space but I guess there's really nothing wrong with that. It's just like you said Ollie made a huge racket of crying and carrying on that its hard not to go into momma bear mode, lol.

My husband was there with me, he tried to take Sam to the other end where it was empty to play fetch but he was just not having it... he wanted to be with Ollie. We did correct him when he was growling and snarling at one dog trying too forcefully to play with Ollie and soon after that is when he snapped at the other puppy without any warning that I could make out... Should be not correct growling? Like you said I was mostly not wanting someone in the park taking offense to my dog growling at theirs. I just wish we knew people with dogs... The ONLY reason I go to the dog park is because this one is locals only, I know most of the people there and they all know us and everyone knows Sammy by name(he loves people more then anything in the world). So I know what to expect, when to go and when not to. It's very important to me that Ollie is good with other dogs and people.

And Ollie is just shy of four months but I will ONLY take him when the park is either empty or there are just a few regulars there with dogs I know. He's also in puppy class right now which is held at the humane society so he's already met a lot of dogs big, small and in between.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

llombardo said:


> My golden was used to having all the toys in the house, then along came the GSD and she now wants all the toys to be hers. I can have 50 toys out and she will want the one he has. At first he was not happy with this turn of events, but I stayed on top of it and he now lets her have the toys and goes and gets another one. He has never guarded food, water, bones, or people. Goldens are a nice size dog, at least mine is, and *I feel he is(which I didn't before)a good deterrent.* I think some training is needed and probably sooner then later.


 
A *deterrent* to/for what? For people to leave you alone? 

Probably not likely, as most people have a VERY different concept of a Golden!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> A *deterrent* to/for what? For people to leave you alone?
> 
> Probably not likely, as most people have a VERY different concept of a Golden!


Uh, wrong...its very likely because it has happened. We always say that he's a golden that thinks he's a Rott. The thing that changed my mind about him is about a month ago it was pitch black outside and a kid came running out of nowhere(I'm sure the kid was up to no good) and he heard/seen him first..the kid got pretty close but the golden lunged at him growling, the kid said oh poo poo and went the other way, my dog went about his business immediately afterward. When he is in the house and someone is at the door his bark is also very much a deterrent. I have never had someone approach me when he is with me, he won't allow it. Now if we are at the pet store or the park he is fine. Just don't come near my house or me in the dark.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> We did correct him when he was growling and snarling at one dog trying too forcefully to play with Ollie and soon after that is when he snapped at the other puppy without any warning that I could make out... Should be not correct growling?


I had to correct mine every time he growled or attempted to growl. He got the point and doesn't do it anymore. I also don't think that he should just growl if the puppy comes into his space...he has to learn how to be nice. I can understand if they are eating a bone or something like that, but even then its a good idea to separate them. Growling over space, toys, people, and water has to be corrected.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I had to correct mine every time he growled or attempted to growl. He got the point and doesn't do it anymore. I also don't think that he should just growl if the puppy comes into his space...he has to learn how to be nice. I can understand if they are eating a bone or something like that, but even then its a good idea to separate them. Growling over space, toys, people, and water has to be corrected.


Well we do correct him, doesn't do a darn bit of a good. Now he just goes straight for the snap and bite instead of growling. We don't keep toys around the house anymore because even if one of my other dogs walked near one he had not even interested in it he would do that quick snap bite. He started doing this when he was around 3 months old, he even snapped at a puppy in puppy class over a toy right in front of the trainer. Trainer said, "oh it's fine" and we of course stupidly believed him. This is why I say his brain is not quite wired right or his temperament is faulty... Though I'm sure it's something I totally screwed up somewhere along the way. I'm just so tired of worrying about when he's going to bite one of my dogs next.

I hope to get a trainer in soon, it's just that we've spent around 20 grand in the last couple months... Seems like everything in the house broke at once(had one 10k plumbing bill alone) and my older cat racked up several thousand with health issues and testing. So moneys a bit tight right now.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Uh, wrong...its very likely because it has happened. We always say that he's a golden that thinks he's a Rott. The thing that changed my mind about him is about a month ago it was pitch black outside and a kid came running out of nowhere(I'm sure the kid was up to no good) and he heard/seen him first..the kid got pretty close but the golden lunged at him growling, the kid said oh poo poo and went the other way, my dog went about his business immediately afterward. When he is in the house and someone is at the door his bark is also very much a deterrent. I have never had someone approach me when he is with me, he won't allow it. Now if we are at the pet store or the park he is fine. Just don't come near my house or me in the dark.


Agree, my golden's defending the territory/house bark is pretty intimidating. And obviously mine takes his guarding very seriously... . I'm sure he wouldn't let someone get near me if he knew they had bad intentions.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

But thank you all for your help and suggestions even though Sam is not a GSD, I hope someone might find this thread helpful!

I've decided until I can bring in someone I'm just going to take him back to square one with training, everything just like a new puppy and work my way back up again!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> But thank you all for your help and suggestions even though Sam is not a GSD, I hope someone might find this thread helpful!
> 
> I've decided until I can bring in someone I'm just going to take him back to square one with training, everything just like a new puppy and work my way back up again!


This is probably a good idea. How old is Sam? Like you I was quite surprised that a golden would ever even growl...they obviously love their toys Good Luck..I'm sure it will be ok.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This is probably a good idea. How old is Sam? Like you I was quite surprised that a golden would ever even growl...they obviously love their toys Good Luck..I'm sure it will be ok.


He is a year old... He's been doing really awesome at home lately so I have hope(as far as the resource guarding goes). My husband normally has him during the day but I've taken over with him and work in lots of obedience training during that time(I'm a housewife). I think I really have to stay on top of things with him... I don't want to use the word "dominant" but he is VERY head strong and if you give him am inch he will take a mile.

Kyleigh suggested I practice doing some obedience work with Sam and Ollie in the same room(they would both be a ways apart from each other and tethered so either one couldn't interfere) so that Sammy could hopefully see that I am the leader and in control with Ollie as well.

He obeys my commands very well, its just when it comes to other dogs is where I'm having problems. He is absolutely stellar with people though, I think he would make an outstanding therapy dog! We can't go anywhere with him without being stopped and him making even grown men fawn all over him and baby talk, lol. He is also so good with small children, I mean he absolutely adores them that it makes me feel guilty that my husband and I don't plan on having any. 

He has his good points, I just have to remember that when he's making my hair turn grey. :wild:

I have also been paying a lot closer attention to his body language trying to figure out all his cues, I know one is going rigid but hopefully I'll be able to figure out more and be able to stop him before something happens from now on.


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