# How important are titles when choosing a breeder?



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I have been browsing breeders online and have come across one who's dogs I particularly like. They seem to have all the traits I would like to have in a future pup (few years from now). The pups comes with a 2 yr written health and hip guarantee and parents are all OFA certified. Testimonials boast great sound temperaments as well. Their pups are german showline/ DDR working cross and they quite often produce long coat sables, which I would love to have one day. However, none of the parents seem to be titled in anything. Only the grandparents on back on both sides. I would be looking for a companion dog, and have no interest in showing or competing, but would still ike to see that potential in my pup. If everything else fit into what you were looking for in a pup, would you, or should I, still be hesitant in getting a pup from this breeder? **I can send a link through PM.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Not all good breeders "title" their dogs....and not all breeders that "title" their dogs...are good breeders.
Stable dogs from good genetics, bred by ethical breeders...would always be primary on my "want" list.
(Titles & accomplishments are wonderful icing on a good cake!)
Speaking from someone who does title & show their dogs....but has also bought puppies from from un-titled parents......
JMO


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If I had some knowledge of the dog I would buy from an untitled breeding...of course lately I am absolutely in love with a beagle so my advice might not be the best to take


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

holland said:


> If I had some knowledge of the dog I would buy from an untitled breeding...of course lately I am absolutely in love with a beagle so my advice might not be the best to take


Beagles are a LOT of work. I had one for 7 mos, an unaltered male. He passed this past Dec. I swear, I'll never own one. He was aggressive. On top of that. they are runners.. you can almost NEVER leave them off leash. All they care about is the nose and sniffing around. Sure they're nice size for in the house but can easily be tripped on if you're used to the 80lbs of GSD running around. 

I did live Pepper, but he was a lot of work. It was nice thou' cause the kids could take him out on the leash for potty, but when he took off after something, he'd almost rip your arm off. 

And they live a LONG time, usually. Ours passed at 3 1/2 yrs. Some can live for like 17 years. 

Just make sure you know what you're getting into before you get a beagle.. SOO much different than a GSD. Once we got the GSD back, we swore we'd never own another breed. 

As for the OP, I would buy from an untitled breeder if the health and temperament of the parents were nice. I know a lot of the ppl that title their dogs do it because they LOVE dogs and the sports and I respect that. BUT, looking at it from wanting a pet stand point. A lot of the largely titled dogs have a strong work drive and personally, I'm not looking for that in a pet.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

In my opinion as a rescuer, there are way, way, WAY too many nice GSDs being produced for the pet market. It's truly staggering. The young healthy pet GSDs that were produced for "nice pets" just never stop coming. I honestly don't have much respect for breeders who produce dogs for the pet market. They're probably nice people who are just unaware of the sheer volume of nice GSDs out there, but ignorance isn't much of an excuse.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

What I find hard to believe is that some of these rep breeders are selling their dogs around here for 2500 bucks. I just can't see how that isn't making a profit from animals. If you get a large litter, 2500 bucks x's 10 or 12, that's quite a bit of cash. Yeah, if the dogs titled and all of that, and I know that the vet bills of the pregnant bitch are there, but still... you can't tell me that they're not making some money off of that? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Sure, maybe not enough to sustain a household, cause you only get that once or 2 x's a year, but it's still making money off of selling animals.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah, $2500 is a little out of line unless its parents are some sort of superstars.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I've looked and looked around this area. There are a LOT of breeders charging that in PA. A LOT. It is unattainable for me... period! even 1700 or 1200.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't buy from a breeder that didn't title their dogs just because the point of breeding is to further dogs, right? You show them and get titles in at least conformation, which proves to the world that they are actually of breeding stock and quality. Otherwise people just pick and choose and could be changing the way the breed looks and moves. You never know. And breeders' dogs can have just as many health problems potentially than a rescue dog, so if you're just looking for companionship, I'd go to a rescue instead, because I don't support breeders not breeding for quality. I mean, temperment/health are great, but you need to be true to the breed as well.



FuryanGoddess said:


> Beagles are a LOT of work. I had one for 7 mos, an unaltered male. He passed this past Dec. I swear, I'll never own one. He was aggressive. On top of that. they are runners.. you can almost NEVER leave them off leash. All they care about is the nose and sniffing around. Sure they're nice size for in the house but can easily be tripped on if you're used to the 80lbs of GSD running around.
> 
> I did live Pepper, but he was a lot of work. It was nice thou' cause the kids could take him out on the leash for potty, but when he took off after something, he'd almost rip your arm off.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you got the terrible end of the stick. Keep in mind that not all beagles are like this. My beagle is trusted 100% off leash ANYWHERE and has a reliable recall from ANYTHING. You can let them off leash if you work with them and train them. Most people just don't try because so many people say what you do; that beagles almost never can be let off leash- so they don't even try to train them, which is unfortunate. I know my beagle would be quite upset if she had to go swimming, camping, hiking, and for walks on leash. Same goes with pulling on the leash- some training helps that completely. Kit loose leash walks and heels perfectly under and circumstances as well. She's not aggressive with anyone or anything and she's NOT a runner. (except when I let her after my neighbor's chickens)


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

That's good. My beagle was handed down on me, dumped off, I should say and had a LOT of bad habits when we got him. I broke some of them, but not all, not near enough that needed to be broken. This dog was so food hungry, he'd take it straight out of you hand and BOY did he BEG. It was out of control.. and I'm sure a lot of that is what he was taught from his previous owners. He was a hard dog, and just like all dogs, are who they are.... as for a breed, I LOVE the look of a beagle.. they're so cute, but personally I don't care to own another one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If I were investing alot of $ in a breeders program, I would hope they would re-invest most of it back to training, titling and bettering their program. 

I would rather support the breeder who is working their dogs(not just showing them in a conformation ring). A breeder who doesn't purchase titled stock(or sending them away to get titles put on them) and resting on the laurels of the past pedigrees.
If you work your dogs, you know them, and how best to match up breeding pairs, using studs that compliment the lines. Saving back a pup to work or repeating a breeding after watching the first litter develop says alot, IMO.

I also don't believe that conformation titles alone tell us much about what we are buying, there is way more to the dog than the looks and structure.
We all have the choice on which breeder to go with and support, hopefully more and more are researching before jumping on the first cute puppy they see.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You know I have no idea if Mikey the beagle is titled but you should see that little guy heel wags his tail the whole time it just puts a smile on your face. I think he might put a few titled GSDs to shame. Very cute dog I'd take him home any day


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

How important are titles? I don't know. How important are health checks? Titles don't guarantee you anything except that the parent managed to get a title. Same with health checks. They don't guarantee a puppy free from health problems.

It's a question of likelihood. A dog with checks and titles and a breeder with a well thought out plan are more likely to be consistant in their production and your expectations are more likely to be met. Can you find a great dog from untitled, unproven parents? Sure you can. I have. My dogs are awesome and I was able to evaluate the parents and previous offspring myself. But I think it has more to do with either luck or experience in choosing puppies. A novice is better off partnering with a breeder experienced in raising and training their own dogs than with someone who just likes their dogs, know they have reasonably good pedigrees, and thinks the pups will have all the traits of the parents. Not that the dogs will be bad. They could be great. But it's more of a gamble unless you really know what you're looking for.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

When I was looking for a bitch to add to my breeding program, I looked for a breeder that trained their dogs in something. I chose a breeder on the west coast that trains and trials their dogs in herding, as well as in conformation. That way i was not as likely to lose the biddability that I had been breeding for several generations.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good Post, JKlatsky I agree with your synopsis!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JKlatsky said:


> How important are titles? I don't know. How important are health checks? Titles don't guarantee you anything except that the parent managed to get a title. Same with health checks. They don't guarantee a puppy free from health problems.
> 
> It's a question of likelihood. A dog with checks and titles and a breeder with a well thought out plan are more likely to be consistant in their production and your expectations are more likely to be met. Can you find a great dog from untitled, unproven parents? Sure you can. I have. My dogs are awesome and I was able to evaluate the parents and previous offspring myself. But I think it has more to do with either luck or experience in choosing puppies. A novice is better off partnering with a breeder experienced in raising and training their own dogs than with someone who just likes their dogs, know they have reasonably good pedigrees, and thinks the pups will have all the traits of the parents. Not that the dogs will be bad. They could be great. But it's more of a gamble unless you really know what you're looking for.


:thumbup:

And I'd much rather save up for a year or so to support a responsible breeder and their program, then spend less for another dog with possibly health of temperment issues that can be extremely $$$$$ down the line.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

FuryanGoddess said:


> What I find hard to believe is that some of these rep breeders are selling their dogs around here for 2500 bucks. I just can't see how that isn't making a profit from animals. If you get a large litter, 2500 bucks x's 10 or 12, that's quite a bit of cash. Yeah, if the dogs titled and all of that, and I know that the vet bills of the pregnant bitch are there, but still... you can't tell me that they're not making some money off of that? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Sure, maybe not enough to sustain a household, cause you only get that once or 2 x's a year, but it's still making money off of selling animals.


Sorry but until you've been there; done that you're not in a good position to be critical of a $2000.00 price tag for a quality GSD puppy. If you do it right and I do mean RIGHT, you will be lucky to meet expenses. If you are a responsible breeder and with each subsequent litter you strive to improve the breed as well as your own line the expense is more than you could believe. If & when you get the chance sit down with such a breeder and ask them the explain the $$ involved and the hours, hours and hours of care and attention a litter of puppies will require. For that first ten weeks it's 24/7 puppies and that's your life. For most of us it's for the love of the breed and the money is a means to finance your next litter. :greet:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

FuryanGoddess said:


> What I find hard to believe is that some of these rep breeders are selling their dogs around here for 2500 bucks. I just can't see how that isn't making a profit from animals.... but it's still making money off of selling animals.


I hope you are a vegan, because otherwise you are helping somebody somewhere, probably every day, to make money off of selling animals.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I don't get this aversion to people making money from animals, unless your a puppy mill what is so bad? I was able to buy my house with the money I made on some foals, does that mean I hated the babies and abused them? I put my heart and soul into my horses, I selected the best stallions I could find and waited for 11 months for the foal, than the months of training etc... I even named my little ranch on 2 acres after the mare who produced the foals. If we are able to provide for and love our animals, what is the big horrible crime of actually being lucky enough to profit from this relationship? I am of the opinion when you love something and have a passion for something, than you become good at it, there's nothing wrong with using that love and passion to your advantage.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Very well said  and just to let people know I do not charge that much myself 




EJQ said:


> Sorry but until you've been there; done that you're not in a good position to be critical of a $2000.00 price tag for a quality GSD puppy. If you do it right and I do mean RIGHT, you will be lucky to meet expenses. If you are a responsible breeder and with each subsequent litter you strive to improve the breed as well as your own line the expense is more than you could believe. If & when you get the chance sit down with such a breeder and ask them the explain the $$ involved and the hours, hours and hours of care and attention a litter of puppies will require. For that first ten weeks it's 24/7 puppies and that's your life. For most of us it's for the love of the breed and the money is a means to finance your next litter. :greet:


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

boeselager said:


> Very well said  and just to let people know I do not charge that much myself


See... I can SEE where you are all coming from, I REALLY do. I'm not slamming any of you or any breeders for the work they put in to the dogs.. but HOW can one sell for 2500 bucks and someone that is selling pups that are just as good or if not better, sell for less? THAT"s what I don't get. It's the same amount of time, right? Work, cost, training? Titling? 

I do respect you, all of you, really I do. You can either believe that or not, that's not something I have any control over. Yes, I realize by buying meat, someone's making money off animals, and I really don't have issue w/ that. Maybe it's the mark up on them that gets me.

I've seen here over and over again, you guys *breeders* saying that you'd never pay and or charge that much for a pup. So, my question is... why are they? Do they think that their pups is so much better than yours? Is it location, perhaps? Why such HUGE price differences? Or is it just because they can get it?


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Just to let you know, I didn't quote that person b/c I thought you were slamming breeders on here, and by no means did I intend my post to be looked at like that. I myself get questioned A lot on where does the money from the puppies go, and that is the only reason I quoted that person. It Always goes right back into my dog's/puppies. Some breeders do this and some don't.

Now for the price of the puppies, I think it goes by All of the Above. It can/could go by location, or they think/know they have the best puppies with the top bloodlines, and/or b/c they can get that much money for their puppies. That's JMO on it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are so many different reasons that a dog cost what it does. 

I think that the cost should reflect the pedigree and quality of the sire and dam and the pup, as well as all the effort and accomplishments, more than just saying the going rate is 1250. 

I think people charging $2500 are probably going after a particular market. I do not know, but to discount it just because of the dollar amount, without any explanation as to why the puppies out of this sire and dam are worth that, is kind of like saying that anyone with more than four dogs is a puppy mill.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Wow, I didn't get notification of any of the last 6 or 7 replies and I visit the forum daily, so I thought the topic had simply died. I can understand some of the price points as in visiting some breeder's pages, their dogs seemed geared more towards working or show groups and I will sometimes see a note that says "occasional companion pups available". So I believe the market does have a good bit to do with it. But like FuryanGoddess, I am in the companion market and having had a dog in my home nearly my entire life, it is hard to convince me that without paying a few thousand dollars, it will be difficult to find a pup that meets what I am looking for as far as health and temperament. With that said, the breeder I was favoring is selling their pups for $1250. So I guess that from all that I have learned on this forum regarding choosing a pup, I was trying to find out just how much weight a title should carry when selecting a pup if everything else seems to meet my requirements?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What does a title on the parents do for you? What value does it add? 

If you want to get a herding dog title on the puppy, you would probably want to ensure that the sire and dam have had their herding ability tested. Maybe the same is true of other sports or work you may want to do with the dog.

But what is the value for your average pet owner? 

There are reasons why even average pet owners might want to go with breeding stock that has been titled. 

One biggie is temperament. Even for a Rally or Obedience title, that dog had to be tried with two to three different judges, after being in close quarters with dogs and people. The title says the dog does not go to pieces in that setting. It says that the dog can stay on task even when there are distractions. 

But there are other reasons. 

One of them is that you have so many dollars to spend on a companion animal. If you are like me, you do not want ANY of those dollars going to people who are not actively involved in the breed. Breeding dogs does not equal active involvement. Working with your dog and getting titles, being a member of a breed club, working with your dog, being a member of an all breed or obedience club, and many other things do mean active involvement. 

Ok, so some people buy a dog with titles already in place. This is true. You can ask. "I am planning on doing obedience with the puppy, did you title the dog yourself?" 

Titles tell me that the dogs sire/dam are trainable, and also tells me that the owner values training. 

Is it 100% necessary? No. 

If I could get a dog out of untitled parents $250 cheaper, would I? All things being equal, no. 

At the same time, if a dog has a mediocre pedigree and a basic title, RN, CD; and the other litter's sire had an awesome pedigree, but no title, I would go with the awesome pedigree. 

i.e. Dog A was purchased for $1500 as a puppy, was raised and titled.
Dog B was purchased as an adult for $20,000 and has the top dog in the country as its sire, and the top bitch in the country as its dam. 

Would you pass on Dog B because it does not have an RN yet?


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## dogladyj (May 10, 2010)

Set your standards high and don't settle for less. "Robin" has it right!


> "Not all good breeders "title" their dogs....and not all breeders that "title" their dogs...are good breeders. Stable dogs from good genetics, bred by ethical breeders...would always be primary on my "want" list".


** Please, direct advertising is not allowed. Thank you. Admin **

Titles are not everything and sometimes they are nothing but it gives a good breeder a chance to evaluate their breed worthyness. In my openion, breeders who do not work and title their own dogs are doing no justice for our breed.- but to their credit, they at least health check and certify hips. It also sounds like they stand behind what they produce.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Buying and importing titled dogs can be very expensive. This can have an influence on price. Shipping females to Europe or even across country can be quite expensive and have an influence on price. Stud fees can influence price. Frozen semen breedings can have an influence on price (very expensive). Titling on your home field Vs. traveling all over the place is not cheap and can influence price for some. Demand and what the market will bear can also influence price (whether we like it or not). A top winning and producing male or female will often warrant a higher price on the pups. I have noticed prices are significantly higher on the west coast than in the Midwest and often even lower down south. Most breeders I know are not independently wealthy and need to cover their breeding expenses plus hopefully have some left over to be able to trial and compete with their dogs. Some just charge an across the board price instead of changing their price for each litter. That is their right. It is also your right to not buy from breeders who charge more than you think you want to pay. 

I stopped worrying about the cost of a puppy along time ago. If I see a litter I am interested in then I would find the money. The initial price is nothing compared to the lifetime expenses or the lifetime of joy that dog will bring into my life.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Couple of things.

Just because a dog is titled does not mean anything. It depends on the training and the testing of the dog (home field, helper, etc) and what is actually shown. Dogs are sold with titles or bought/left to be titled, etc but the true question is – how did they get there? Are the people being honest on what they have bought and/or are breeding? Would they remove a dog from their breeding program due to health and/or temperament issues? 

I would also look for someone that is consistent in their focus; no matter what that focus is. I can count on one hand the breeders that have stayed true to the focus of only breeding titles dogs (dogs that are titled *before* breeding). So many people will state that they follow SV standards, but only a select few really do. Kudos to them!

I am not slamming people that breed before titled: we did that with Fani. She was in training with Gabor and worked on National certified helpers and WUSV competitors– does not matter. She was not titled at the time of breeding and we were upfront about it and we never vacillated about doing it one way and then changing our minds...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think a title is only important if people understand what that title is proving. That includes the buyers and the breeders and all the people who give advise on BBs. In order to do that, you first have to understand what genetic traits a GSD is supposed to possess. Next, you need to need to try to figure out what each title is testing in that regard. I think anymore, very few "sports" are testing that much as far the genetic traits a GSD was intended to possess. 
Here is the GSD standard concerning character:
The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog

Because the training has "advanced", the genetic attributes that made the GSD the most versatile and trainable dog in the world are being bred out. Very few seem to appreciate what a GSD with all those genetic abilities are really like to work with...maybe because there are a lot fewer of those dogs now. People are so busy swinging the balls on the string , turning in circles with the rag on a pole and popping the whip, they rarely take a moment to see who the dog is or to simply work with what the dog is bringing to the training vs trying to create certain behaviors so he will maybe "look" better than he really is. 

People actually think the protective instinct or the genetic obedience the breed was famous for, are not necessary in SchH or even in the breed anymore. Most don't seem to understand that those traits ever existed. They will tell you all you need is a dog who is ball crazy and will stare at it for hours to be a great obedience prospect. They will say that the dogs must chase a rag relentlessly and must PLAY with the helper be a good candidate for SchH protection work. I even read somewhere that if a dog won't play with the helper, there is something wrong with him. Well, all I have to say about that is, the best and most famous dogs of all time would have never "played" with the bad guy. 

The protective instinct is at the bottom of the list now and in putting it there, the breed has made a drastic turn for the worse. That protective instinct was what SchH was supposed to test and more important than that was the dog's ability to remain calm and composed when the aggression associated with that instinct was triggered. Now people really don't know if their dog will protect or if he can keep his head when he does. I see people spending huge amounts of time trying to manage and control dogs who are showing that their genetics are not right, but since people no longer seem to understand that part of it, they think this is somehow the way it is supposed to be in SchH training. They are using tricks and gadgets and toys and treats much more than they are using the genetics a good GSD is supposed to possess and that SchH is supposed to be putting on display. Obedience where flash created by this kind of nutty possessiveness the dogs are showing now, ( and what people end up fighting with in protection), is valued over the dog's natural desire to please. 

I will stop now because I could go on and on and have been doing that for years now on these boards. Things have simply continued to get worse during that time, so more and more, I ask myself what's the point? I just would like to see the focus or whatever you want to call it, shift back to breeding GOOD DOGS vs breeding dogs based on letters on a paper and pedigrees and kennel names. Mostly, there are only a very few people who can look at a pedigree and give you an idea of what it really means and that includes a large majority of breeders. Most just look for famous names but know nothing about what that line produced and what it means as far as the dog goes. If you don't know enough about the DOGS, what a good dog is and what his behaviors tell you about him, all these other things are worthless to look at.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Vandal said:


> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


 This was extremely well put and makes a lot of sense to me. The description above is everything I wish I could have in a future pup, but you're right, it seems that nearly every GSD these days requires tons of training and work daily to achieve what should be natural traits of the breed. It somewhat saddens me to have these issues brought to light in this way. I guess it kinda makes me feel like no matter which breeder I choose, or which pup, its always going to be a crap shoot.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I haven't read through this entire thread yet but just wanted to respond to the last post. Yes it is always going to be a crap shoot. However, if you take the time to educate yourself and find the right breeder and a very responsible one you stack the deck way in your favor. Plus with any good breeder if you should somehow fall into the small percentage of those that fail the crap shoot they will happily work with you to give you a second shot at it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Tihannah said:


> I guess it kinda makes me feel like no matter which breeder I choose, or which pup, its always going to be a crap shoot.


Thank goodness for adult dogs in rescue.  You meet the dog, you talk to the fosters, you do all the health checks you want. . . and what you see is pretty much what you get.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't believe it is always going to be a crapshoot. 
If you look at what the breeder has produced in the past and know what you are getting into with a GSD, along with foundation training~ those will be the strengths in the end results.
Many people go into getting a pup with no research, not even knowing the needs of this great breed-already setting themselves and the pup up to fail.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't believe it is always going to be a crapshoot.





onyx'girl said:


> If you look at what the breeder has produced in the past and know what you are getting into with a GSD, along with foundation training~ those will be the strengths in the end results.
> Many people go into getting a pup with no research, not even knowing the needs of this great breed-already setting themselves and the pup up to fail.


Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with Jane. I don't believe a puppy is as big of a "crapshoot" as some make it out to be. Of course, you have to do your research (as Jane says) in order to stack that deck a little. But knowing what a dog/dam have produced and historically what the ancestors have produced can be a great indicator of what the puppy will be. Genetics factor into what a puppy will be. JMHO.


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## tkarsjens (Nov 30, 2009)

Tihannah said:


> I guess it kinda makes me feel like no matter which breeder I choose, or which pup, its always going to be a crap shoot.


By definition, a crap shoot is totally random. No matter where you get a dog from, there are some things that you can't control or predict. But you can skew things in your favor and make it not totally random.

For example, if you buy a dog from two parents with certified good hips you are more likely to avoid hip dysplasia than if you buy from two dysplastic parents. Doesn't mean two dogs with good hips can't produce dysplasia (they can) and it doesn't mean two dysplastic dogs can't produce good hips (they can) but your odds are better with the clean parents.

That's the real trick - playing the odds to put as much in your favor as possible. Yes, you could end up with an issue or problem, but you do what you can to avoid them.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I can't believe it but I agree with Jane


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Vinnie said:


> Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with Jane. I don't believe a puppy is as big of a "crapshoot" as some make it out to be. Of course, you have to do your research (as Jane says) in order to stack that deck a little. But knowing what a dog/dam have produced and historically what the ancestors have produced can be a great indicator of what the puppy will be. Genetics factor into what a puppy will be. JMHO.




Oh gawd

I agree with Jane and Vinnie.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Vandal, you are my hero, but you already know that!!! Its tough preaching to the converted because they "already" know so they don't listen or change. 
As for crapshoot, the last three dogs I have procured(4 months, 8 months, and 17 months), I never saw the puppy before I got it, I have never seen the parents of any of them, but I knew the dogs and their pedigree, and the breeders had integrity. All three of these dogs are super!! 
The problem as I see it is breeders are no longer breeding the type of dogs Anne described, (which is only what the dog should be anyway), and instead are breeding what they like or will win ribbons or trophies. So the unknowledgable often go to breeders who have created their version of the breed and it comes with a price. The price being that defects show up in other areas. The way I see it is you should be able to look up a German Shepherd in the encyclopedia, read what they are supposed to be and go out and find these type of dogs from that all knowing "reputable" breeder. Sadly, this often is not the case!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wow holland, I didn't know you _disagreed_ with my posts so often! Makes me feel bad...
Doc, I already knew that about you


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