# Man kills son, self over legal fight with AR groups



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Police: Man killed son, self - WilsonTimes.com


Williams and his wife, Cynthia Williams, bred Great Danes at their former home in Wilson County. Sheriff’s deputies raided the property last year and seized more than two dozen dogs, claiming animal cruelty and related violations. A judge threw out the search warrant and dismissed criminal charges against the couple, but their legal troubles continued in a series of lawsuits against two animal rescue groups involved in the raid.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

There isn't enough info again for me to have any real opinion about who was "right" or "wrong", and I don't have much love for AR groups overall, BUT that's no reason to murder your son and kill yourself.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

crackem said:


> There isn't enough info again for me to have any real opinion about who was "right" or "wrong", and I don't have much love for AR groups overall, BUT that's no reason to murder your son and kill yourself.


Well said. Stable people do not murder their children


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jax08 said:


> Well said. Stable people do not murder their children


And if you can treat your family like that, goodness knows what may have been happening with the dogs.


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

There is so little in this article about how this guy SHOT AND KILLED HIS CHILD , and so much about how they were victimized by being investigated for running a puppy mill.

SMH


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Yes i was wondering when i read it what the while story was. The person who originality posted this and others have painted a picture very different from what people here are seeing.
They describe then as decent hobby breeders who were harassed, wrongly raided and accused, the case was thrown out, and then the people were publicly hounded and harassed. The family won a slander lawsuit because of the harassment but still lost everything and moved out of town because of the harassment. 
They paint him as a living family man who lost everything and snapped under the years of pressure

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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> Well said. Stable people do not murder their children


Exactly.
Sheilah


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, when you look at how hardcore some of these rescue groups are... and if you are dealing with someone who has issues and is unstable than somebody can easily be driven into such a tragedy. 

Look at how many people are driven into suicide over finances and especially bullying... and let's be honest, there are some pretty darn ruthless rescue groups out there. 

So I'm not about to bash this father. I'm saying it's all around a tragedy and if these groups have really a part in this than shame on them.


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

Personally , I have no problem bashing the father. Kill yourself , I may feel sorry for you. Take a 10 year old with you? He should burn for eternity.

I wonder if he called his wife and asked her permission to include her 10 year old child in his rapid departure? 

There is no problem or harassment in this world great enough to do something so selfish as to leave a woman behind who still has to deal with the mess , the remaining family members , all while grieving the loss of one of her children.

What a nice guy , poor thing.

If the group was severely harassing them , then they should be charged with harassment.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

What I don't get is how are AR groups involved in the SEIZURE of animals in the first place? How is that even legal? 

Isn't that the polices and animal controls job? 
How is it possible that they illegally seize those animals and than have the audacity to charge you for boarding? Or foster/adopt them out before you have even a chance to get your LEGALLY OWNED animals back? 

As for taking out your whole family, it is something that has happened throughout the whole history. You rather take them out than "leave them to the wolves". In this time and age its definitely not rational thinking.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

generally, PETA or the HSUS partner with the police. They do the leg work "investigation" and then step in to take control of the animals when the police serve the warrant. 
There was a pit bull breeder a few years ago who was charged with dog fighting because of materials he owned - a break stick, exercise equipment, etc. He was found not guilty of all charges but all of his dogs were destroyed. A lifetime of love and expertise poured into a bloodline wiped out.

In a situation like this, obviously a person is no longer functioning on all cylinders. But when all circumstances point to a loving family man who suddenly snapped in this manner, you have to look for the cause of his break with reality. 
And, yes, suicide is always a selfish event. And it isn't uncommon for a parent committing suicide to decide to take their children with them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The responsible groups should be thouroughly investigated. This is not the first time animals have been wrongfully taken. Also shows that if you mak accussations you better be able to back them up! 

I am so sick of people calling neglect and abuse where none of it exists! 

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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

The most common thing I've seen is that a large national group like HSUS chines in, raises a ton of money off the "rescue"and then leaves the small local group with all of the animals and expenses. And the blame when the owner fights back as this guy did. 
He won a slander lawsuit against the rescue group

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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Hmmm… I think that there were likely legitimate reasons why their kennel was raided.

Excerpt from New York Times article titled, _“Safety Concerns Stoke Criticism of Kennel Club.”_ February, 2013

"The A.K.C. inspected the kennel of Joseph and Cynthia Williams in Wilson, N.C., months before the police raided it. On May 17, 2012, an A.K.C. inspector said that the 34 Great Danes and mastiffs under the Williamses’ care were in “acceptable” conditions, with only 2 of the 15 categories marked “needs improvement,” for the construction of kennels and signs of “untreated, visible wounds.” The A.K.C. inspector found that the Williams kennel over all was “in compliance with A.K.C.’s Care Conditions Policy” even though the dogs did not have access to daily exercise outside their cages and pens, according to court documents.

Three months later, Wilson County officials seized 28 of the Williamses’ dogs, a majority of them in “poor” condition, suffering from illnesses, injuries and living in “unhealthy conditions,” according to court documents. *A veterinarian told the court that the rescued dogs had ailments that ranged “from serious to severe” and that “most of the injuries appeared to be chronic, having been in existence for a substantial period of time.”*


Pictures of dogs in rescue posted on www.complaintsboard.com. Here is the link speaking to the breeders in question: http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/nc-great-danes-wilson-north-carolina-c578238.html?page=3

Apparently, these breeders were well known for unethical breeding practices and for dumping dogs on local rescues well before the raid. These pics I believe are either from immediately before the raid or right afterward… not sure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Right or wrong, I don't know about them raiding him etc. But I expect that the continued assault probably effected the man's mental state. 

To kill yourself, you have to be out of your mind, unless you are facing a seriously painful and sure death by illness -- not sure about that. 

When you are seriously out of your mind, enough to kill yourself, then your reason is screwed up and killing the ones you love is all part of the delusions. 

I see it as a tragedy. And I do not know enough to blame anyone or anything.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

"...and i do not know enough to blame anyone or anything".

wow, that's one of the coolest responses i've seen on the internet lately! so often we don't (know enough to blame anyone or anything), but i see so many judgements handed down, and so many personal opinions presented as fact. this made my day! sorry for the hijack...


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Killing your child is deplorable, I feel like anyone who kills themselves is a coward, unstable and probably did us a favor. I do feel alot of sorrow for the family and friends of such people. Very tragic.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> A judge threw out the search warrant and dismissed criminal charges against the couple, but their legal troubles continued in a series of lawsuits against two


The case was dismissed due to a legal technicality having to do with the warrant, not based on facts brought into evidence. So, dismissal is not evidence of innocence in this case.

Yes, this is a tragic story. It is absolutely horrible that an innocent 10 year old boy is dead due to the mental instability of his parent. Like others have said, my heart goes out to the family.

But, let's not use this as a reason to malign the local animal control agencies, local breed rescues, and local HSUS representatives that were responding to numerous complaints and reports about bad practices at that facility.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

You are the first person I have found that has ever mentioned that there were "numerous complaints" or other evidence of problems. In the article you posted above, it says that they were inspected and that their were only a couple minor problems listed by the AKC.

As I said, I posted it here because many people I know on Facebook are commenting on the relentless hounding these people received. They won a slander lawsuit against the rescue groups which means that a judge ruled that what the rescue folks were saying about them was unfounded and not supported by the facts.

Were they good breeders? It looks like NOT. Were they worse than any of the other backyard breeders all over the country? It looks like they were not. That's not a good thing either. But to slander, harass and make a family lose everything they own and drive a man to murder/suicide? I can't see where they did anything bad enough to deserve that

ETA: I haven't seen any reference to it online but someone mentioned that the family may be considering a civil suit against the rescue group because their actions drove this man to what he did.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> *You are the first person I have found that has ever mentioned that there were "numerous complaints" or other evidence of problems. * In the article you posted above, it says that they were inspected and that their were only a couple minor problems listed by the AKC.


Re: the *bolded* part of your post –

According to local news reports, law enforcement agencies had been investigating that kennel since 2009 after receiving numerous complaints from puppy purchasers about sick puppies.

Also, the fact that AKC sent an investigator is further evidence of numerous complaints being filed. The AKC has a lot of field agents, but only nine inspectors to cover the entire country. As there is no way nine inspectors can cover all facilities producing AKC dogs, inspections of facilities that have had a number of serious complaints made about it are prioritized. 

_(btw: you should read the AKC’s Care and Conditions policy… it is really kind of horrifying how lax they are)_

Finally, local rescues report a pattern of behavior where the breeders repeatedly dumped their sick breeding dogs at the rescues for years prior to the seizure action. 

This posting from a Mastiff rescue dated 07/25/12 predates the August 2012 seizure of another 28 animals in poor health by about a month. Home - Southern States Mastiff Rescue

_"Just this past week we were made aware of a puppy mill situation in Wilson County, NC. We worked with Wilson County Animal Control and we were able to bring in three Mastiffs from pretty bad conditions. As a rescue we were not allowed on the exact site of the puppy mill itself, but just seeing the dogs and hearing their story was enough for us.

These Mastiffs were rescued with at least eleven Great Danes. 

SSMR now has them. They are with Dr. Dale Brown in Fayetteville, NC. We have worked closely with Dr. Brown on many rescue cases in the past. *Each of the dogs had hook worms. They have all tested heart worm positive. They are all extremely underweight.* Each is being spayed/neutered and we are trying to find foster homes for them. 

I will tell you what I know about each.

Moose - named by Dr. Brown's office staff. A little timid, but a friendly boy. We think he will be easily adopted. He likes other dogs. He is extremely underweight, but will be a handsome boy when he fills out and becomes healthy.

Dolly - named by Dr. Brown's office staff. A very shy girl. She is feeling very overwhelmed by everything that is happening to her. She wants to be with Moose most of the time. The kennel staff will allow them to be in the same kennel so she can relax. She is thin, but not quite as thin as the others. She is going to need some serious TLC and patience to get her through this and help build her confidence.

Savannah - named by Animal Control. This girl is extremely thin. She just had a litter of puppies 14 days ago. The puppies were left behind and put on another lactating female from the puppy mill. Savannah was in no shape to feed them well. This girl has been described as "broken"...as "ashamed to be alive". We will need to find her a place were she can come out of her shell and build some confidence. Hopefully with time and patience she will come around. 

*Not only did the people at this puppy mill neglect these beautiful Mastiffs and fail to feed them properly and treat them with respect they actually used cattle prods on them!! *These dogs have probably never had a happy day in their lives. We, in Southern States Mastiff Rescue will change that."_

So, in the month leading up to the seizure, these so-called hobby breeders had 40+ breeding dogs in poor health – this number does not take into account the number of litters that were on the ground. Sorry, these people do not sound like innocent hobby breeders to me.

I also learned that they continued breeding after the seizure under a different kennel name.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh hey, I actually know of these people.

Wilson NC is where one of our main rescue partners is located. My rescue has actually gotten dogs dumped by these people in the past. I don't think our partners had any part in the legal battles (there's just no money or manpower to spare for that), but I'm sure they would have joined in if they'd had the ability to do so.

LifeofRiley is right: This was a bad puppy mill with sick, severely neglected dogs. There were complaints about them for years and they were finally charged with animal cruelty in 2012. It takes a _lot_ to get animal cruelty charges brought.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

yes, this is all very different info than what I've been reading.

As I said, the picture painted by the people I've seen commenting online is of a family that was very active in rescue that were shunned once they decided to become breeders. That the numerous inspections only found minor infractions and that the dogs were generally healthy though some were underweight. The info that I've been told is that the dogs that were underweight were not their breeding dogs but rescues - that the family was still actively involved in rescue work.
Also, winning the slander lawsuit is part of the evidence presented that the dogs were not unhealthy.

I've passed on the links that others have shared here.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Here is the story as I understand it:

The animal cruelty case was dismissed because law enforcement officials waited 34 days to execute the warrant. The judge determined that this delay invalidated the premise of the warrant. Once the warrant was deemed invalid, all evidence attached to it was inadmissible. The prosecutors had no choice but to drop the charges. 

After the charges were dropped, the Great Dane Rescue Alliance filed a civil suit to assume custody of the seized dogs and to prohibit the William’s from owning future dogs. The William’s filed a counter-suit to gain leverage. The parties reached a settlement agreement whereby GDRA was able to keep custody of all but one dog and the William’s received some money from GDRA and did not have to pay back the money the local HSUS paid for veterinarian care of the animals.

All of the additional legal troubles faced by the Williams were due to puppy purchasers suing them for breach of contract and breach of implied warranty.


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