# Fighting brothers



## braaad (Jul 29, 2011)

I have two eight week year old pups and they love to play fight. Usually it's harmless and fun but sometimes it can get pretty intense, like a lot of biting where the other one yips in pain, etc. I think it's normal, but my wife gets freaked out when the play fighting devolves into more fight, less play.

What's the standard advise here? Should I break them up when they get too wild? Will one of them eventually emerge as the dominant dog and this will all stop??


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think the standard advise is "do not buy two pups the same age , especially brothers , or two of the same gender " at the same time. Dogs don't benefit , neither do you.
One day it will be the fight to end all fights.
I would chose your favourite and rehome the other (or return to breeder)

You would not be walking away with two at the same time from me.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I agree with Carmen. On top of that, I think it would be incredibly difficult to dedicate the time needed for training and socialization when you have two puppies to worry about. It's hard enough to keep up with just one! Add the fighting into all of this and you're setting yourself up for disaster.

If you return one of the pups, or find it a new home, you'll be much happier with the end result of the puppy you do keep (so long as you provide it the training it needs).


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I agree with Carmen. On top of that, I think it would be incredibly difficult to dedicate the time needed for training and socialization when you have two puppies to worry about. It's hard enough to keep up with just one! Add the fighting into all of this and you're setting yourself up for disaster.

If you return one of the pups, or find it a new home, you'll be much happier with the end result of the puppy you do keep (so long as you provide it the training it needs).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Some things to consider when trying to raise two littermates:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/158118-id-love-get-two-puppies-once.html

If you are having behaviour issues with them at 8 - 9 weeks, things are not likely to get any better. May be better to find a new home for one puppy, give all your time and energy to raise the other one properly, then get another dog a few years down the road.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have two males, littermates. Looking back, they should have been comepletely separeated by 7 weeks. They fought, and real fighting. Nothing puppy-ish about it.
The "less" dominant male is still a little uneasy around strange dogs.

My two are, and have been since about 5 months, completely separated. Separate yards, separate areas of the house. Never even go out for walks together. Unless you are prepared for that, you may want to reconsider keeping both.

I can't even imagine making my two 'live' together. It would not be fair to the second male to be constantly on edge, or to the more dominant male who would feel like he always has to keep an eye on the other.
Living with constant stress is bad for all.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Agree with above.. 

Many years ago I bought a gsd puppy , at around 10 weeks the breeder called, another male's purchase fell thru, she wanted to know if I wanted him..NO WAY but I had a friend looking for one, so SHE took him..

We thought this was great, the two "bro's" could get together,,play, whatever, well not happening,,whether it was their personalities, whatever, they HATED each other and even at that age,,tolerate each other for a bit, then really get into it..

We both had these 'bro's' for years and they NEVER EVER liked each other, EVER..Other dogs were fine, just these two had constant conflict IF we ever were together..


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## braaad (Jul 29, 2011)

Wow. Well thanks for all the replies- needless to say I'm pretty bummed and upset at myself for making such an ill-informed decision. Plus there's a real emotional attachment at this point to both dogs. But here's a follow-up question:

If it were possible to "trade-in" one of the males for a female litter mate from the same breeder, would this minimize some of the problems everyone here has raised? 

Thanks for your help,
Brad


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It might minimize, but not simplify.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Do you have a friend, relative, or co-worker who could take one of the dogs? That way you could still get to see it grow up, visit, go on walks together, etc.? 

Could you work with a rescue group and "trade" for a gentle opposite sex mature female (not necessarily OLD but just grown up) or even possibly a male depending on personalities and have them place the second pup? It is tremendously helpful for an older dog to help you raise a pup as they teach them in dog ways that we can't manage. 

I wouldn't want two pups at the same time, ever. Kittens come in pairs, pups come as singles.


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## braaad (Jul 29, 2011)

We just called the breeder and she agreed to exchange one of the males for a female from the same litter. At this point I need to find other sources besides this website to backup or dispute the majority opinion here. Please don't take that the wrong way- I just need to make a real informed decision to make up for the real un-informed decision we made when we got the two bro's.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Raising Siblings

The Critical Period

Austin Dog Trainer Blog: Adopting littermates?

Think twice before getting 2 puppies - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

It can be done, but takes a lot of effort.
Good luck! They are both adorable.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The majority opinion here comes from some very experienced people who have been through exactly your situation. I understand the impulse to get two and it certainly can work out just fine but it does take a lot of extra work, it is common to have personality clashes between siblings and the other side of the of the problem is that you can get dogs who are more bonded to one another than to their humans. 

I remember several cases in rescue where we got in two siblings as adults and in every case we had to separate them because one of the dogs was so dependent on the other that s/he really wasn't responding to people. 

I don't think rehoming a puppy at this age is the end of the world, especially if you can find a friend or relative (as someone suggested) so that you could keep up with him.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Realistically ask the breeder to evaluate the pups involved and choose the best match of a male/female combo since it really sounds like you and your wife really want two puppies.

IF you and your wife have a lot of time and dedication and the willingness to work together on this, you could manage having TWO puppies. I get all animal raising solo in my household and I couldn't handle two pups alone all day. However, there is a good possibility the female will bond more to you and the male to your wife and you could each take the lead with "your dog" and "her dog" kind of thing. If you work all day and she is home all day (or vice versa) it's gonna be tough. Think of one baby versus twins. It will be hard training, socializing, potty training, tolerating the wild play (zoomies) of two at once. However, if you are determined and both to be involved, you will manage. 

Again, make sure you carefully consider the best combination in personality of a male/female in looking at dominance and personality "clicking" or clashing. Two developing individuals need to have their own niche and it sounds like the brothers are going head-to-head for control.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

braaad said:


> Wow. Well thanks for all the replies- needless to say I'm pretty bummed and upset at myself for making such an ill-informed decision. Plus there's a real emotional attachment at this point to both dogs. But here's a follow-up question:
> 
> If it were possible to "trade-in" one of the males for a female litter mate from the same breeder, would this minimize some of the problems everyone here has raised?
> 
> ...


I would return one and keep the other, without adding. 

IF you do add, please spay your female before her first heat unless you are able to board your male during that month, so that you don't have a brother-sister litter.


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## braaad (Jul 29, 2011)

Taking one back now. I'm heartbroken but I know this is the right thing to do.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Good point on the spay the female issue . . .


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

braaad said:


> Taking one back now. I'm heartbroken but I know this is the right thing to do.


It is! Especially early on. Better for both of them. Good job, difficult decision.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

The breeder will find a wonderful home for the pup, someone who can give it great training and individualized attention and a life full of love. It will be much less stressful and safe for both brothers. If it works out, maybe you can even be in touch and meet sometimes or email or send pix or be FB friends. 

When you feel the energy in the home shift, you will know you did the right thing. Everyone will exhale and you can truly be in joy and not worry and tenseness over the puppy raising.


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## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

I think you are making the right choice. You will feel much better about it later. Everyone answered your question perfectly. They are very educated on this and I would feel confident about their opinons. Good luck with the new puppy and welcome to the form.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

having two pups at the same time will never be as personal or rewarding as dealing with one . 
you have to have a lot of patience when dealing with two that are in the same needs, demands , developmental stages . You go out and train one, he didn't have it together , you are frustrated . You go home and get the other one who is in a training receptive mood but your frustration is at the surface and so the second one does not get the full appreciation that he deserves.

I too would recommend one . If you like this breeder so much , why not have her hold on to the payment as a deposit for a pup same time next year. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Just because you will get a female sibling does not guarantee they will not fight. I have a dominant female. She is about 18 months old now, a total sweetheart, but let me tell you when it comes to her finding her place in life, she insists shes top dog. She even challenges my 115lb 9yr old male. When we used to go visit her siblings they got really ruff, gremlin style.
I have learned so much in the last 1-1/2 years mostly from here and my next pup will be a single pup. Without realizing it I know my pup bonded with my other dogs stronger than with me. Even though my dogs ages are 9, 7 and 1-1/2 they need to be trained individually. I didn't realize the importance of individual time.


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## braaad (Jul 29, 2011)

Just returned from taking the more dominant and crazy/manic/energetic one back. He's an awesome dog but more brawn than brains. The one we kept has always been more receptive to games and paper training, and just seems more balanced. They were both the exact same size too, funny.

I just played tug of war with him for 15 minutes and it was SO MUCH MORE EASY to focus on him, without worrying about the other one jumping in and starting a fight. I was able to get him to really clamp down on the toy without having to let go and bite his bro back :shocked:

Thanks everyone for the advice and warm welcome.

Brad


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

braaad said:


> Just returned from taking the more dominant and crazy/manic/energetic one back. He's an awesome dog but more brawn than brains. The one we kept has always been more receptive to games and paper training, and just seems more balanced. They were both the exact same size too, funny.
> 
> I just played tug of war with him for 15 minutes and it was SO MUCH MORE EASY to focus on him, without worrying about the other one jumping in and starting a fight. I was able to get him to really clamp down on the toy without having to let go and bite his bro back :shocked:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you had to make that decision. I know it must have been extremely diffiicult, but I'm sure that it was the best thing for your family, the puppy you're keeping, and also the puppy that you returned. Puppies take an extraordinary amount of time and energy to raise and train properly, and I have a hard enough time doing all that with one pup at a time! I'm glad that you're already recognizing how much better it is to be able to focus just on the one puppy. Once he's older and trained to the "practically perfect" stage (whatever that means to you, based on your lifestyle and goals), then you can think about adding another dog to the pack. 

Nothing wrong with male/male combos - it's certainly better than female/female combos, but I think the easiest by far is to have one of each. That does create the possibility of unplanned breedings, so if you do decide to add a female later, one or both of them should be spayed/neutered unless you are absolutely sure you can keep them completely separated for a month while she's in heat. 

In the meantime have fun with your puppy!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Awesome. Kudos to you for being open minded, willing to admit you made a mistake, and willing to learn. Stick around, there's LOTS to learn on this forum, especially from some of the members who have devoted their entire lives to this breed. And did you know we require puppy pictures? 



braaad said:


> Just returned from taking the more dominant and crazy/manic/energetic one back. He's an awesome dog but more brawn than brains. The one we kept has always been more receptive to games and paper training, and just seems more balanced. They were both the exact same size too, funny.
> 
> I just played tug of war with him for 15 minutes and it was SO MUCH MORE EASY to focus on him, without worrying about the other one jumping in and starting a fight. I was able to get him to really clamp down on the toy without having to let go and bite his bro back :shocked:
> 
> ...


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

There's no reason you can't get a second puppy later, when your first puppy is a bit older. IME it works out SO much better! I have always had more than just one dog, but I've found it's much better to have some age between them!


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I will thank you for the pup you kept. He's probably thrilled to not be thrashed constantly by his brother. He will, I am sure, be happy to some day help you raise a little brother or sister. There will be an active family/couple/person to adopt the other pup and focus on him. He will be happy and thank you too. Welcome to the forum. The amount of expertise here is phenomenal.


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