# Would you breed a non akc dog



## LoveMyDogs

We will be getting a GSD and we plan on doing as much with him as we can for titles. He has akc parents but he comes with no papers because his mom was a rescue GSD.

Would you still stud him when he is older? Also can you stud him to a female Workline female that is titled and has papers if he is a showline GSD?


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## Konotashi

LoveMyDogs said:


> We will be getting a GSD and we plan on doing as much with him as we can for titles. He has akc parents but he comes with no papers because his mom was a rescue GSD.
> 
> Would you still stud him when he is older? Also can you stud him to a female Workline female that is titled and has papers if he is a showline GSD?


No.

The mom should never have been bred in the first place simply because she's a rescue, in my opinion.


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## LoveMyDogs

She was part of the akc with good papers but the current owner could not get them out. 

So he should be fixed then so my girl is safe from him.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Absolutely not.

Why would you stud him out? For the money? Breeding dogs is not (or should not be) a moneymaking scheme.

If you are truly interested in becoming a breeder, please find a reputable breeder that will mentor you. There are enough unregistered, unproven, UNWANTED puppies in shelters and rescues without adding to the problem. 

Titling is only one piece of the puzzle. Confirmation, health, temperament, papers, etc. are additional required pieces. No step should be skipped, IMO. 

Everyone thinks their dog is wonderful and many seem to think this means they're worthy of breeding. The fact of the matter is... the majority of them simply are not.


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## Konotashi

LoveMyDogs said:


> She was part of the akc with good papers but the current owner could not get them out.


I'm not sure what you mean by this.


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## LoveMyDogs

do you think $500.00 plus $300.00 for shipping is to much then because he not papered? We paid $1500 for our girl so I am still a little scared. We are picking him up on Friday so I am just making sure I cover my basics and do this the right way.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

LoveMyDogs said:


> She was part of the akc with good papers but the current owner could not get them out.
> 
> So he should be fixed then so my girl is safe from him.


How old is your girl? You should really wait to fix either dog until their growth plates are closed. There are ways to keep dogs apart when the female is in heat to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

I would fix the female if she's old enough. Or are you thinking of breeding her, too? AKC registry is FAR from the only thing needed to breed a dog. Did you x-ray and certify her hips and elbows with the OFA? What about other health/genetic testing? What sort of titles does she have? What about her confirmation? Or her temperament?

If you simply cannot keep these dogs apart, I'd get them altered ASAP.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

LoveMyDogs said:


> do you think $500.00 plus $300.00 for shipping is to much then because he not papered? We paid $1500 for our girl so I am still a little scared. We are picking him up on Friday so I am just making sure I cover my basics and do this the right way.


I would personally NEVER pay any amount of money for a dog (aside from an adoption fee from a reputable shelter or rescue) from a BYB facility. All you're doing is lining their greedy pockets so they can breed more dogs that will likely end up on death row in shelters.


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## Konotashi

LoveMyDogs said:


> do you think $500.00 plus $300.00 for shipping is to much then because he not papered? We paid $1500 for our girl so I am still a little scared. We are picking him up on Friday so I am just making sure I cover my basics and do this the right way.


$500 for a non-papered dog is quite a bit, but typical. $300 for shipping is average; that's what the airline charges, not the breeder.

Were the parents health checked or titled? Or are they just papered? Because honestly, papers mean next to nothing, other than the dogs are purebred.


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## LoveMyDogs

No not for the money! We have really fallen in llove with the GSD and would like to breed down the road when we are 100% ready the right way. So I'm just asking some questions. I can call my girls breeder but I know how full he can be with time.


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## gsdraven

LoveMyDogs said:


> do you think $500.00 plus $300.00 for shipping is to much then because he not papered? We paid $1500 for our girl so I am still a little scared. We are picking him up on Friday so I am just making sure I cover my basics and do this the right way.


Why are you scared? What does the price you paid for your female have to do with anything? Price does not make the dog and is completely subjective. If you think $800 is a fair price for the dog you are getting, then it is. Personally, $800 for a dog bred from a rescued female is way to high for me to pay.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Why do you want to breed?


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## LoveMyDogs

See the Sire is fully reg and has a great bloodline. The mom has the same great bloodline. I'm not sure how she ended up in a rescue home but she did. The owner and breeder of the mom talked to AKC but she still could not register the puppies because the mom ended up in a rescue home.


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## LoveMyDogs

We have been working with our dog at our club since she has been a pup and we just love the breed. If we can get her titled and show others how wonderful a GSD really is that would be good enough for me. My husband would like to buy a couple dogs and start breeding them we are just in love with the GSD. This is way I asked about our male dog we really want to give him the life Elsa has and do what GSD love to do. We would also like to stud him out if everything look good with him in a couple of years.


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## kiya

LoveMyDogs said:


> I'm not sure how she ended up in a rescue home but she did.


She's lucky she was rescued, most are put to death because there are way too many unwanted dogs.


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## carmspack

let's have a look at the greatness of the lines.


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## LoveMyDogs

If she could reg the puppies she said they would have worth $3000.00 I have all the papers on the parents as well. I wish I knew why she was a rescue dog so sad.


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## NancyJ

There are a ton of dogs who have GREAT bloodlines who are not bred and putting together two GREAT dogs can give you duds. I respect those who title their own dogs, work their own dogs and know enough about the genetics to put the right dogs together.

Study the "do you want to be a breeder" threads first.
Personally were it my dogs I would cosnsider spaying the female because she is a good age and keep the male intact at least 2 years. 

Who on earth would pay a stud fee from a non registerable dog?


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## LoveMyDogs

carmspack said:


> let's have a look at the greatness of the lines.


Here is a link to her blog with links click on the sire and Brandi www.shannonsshepherds.blogspot.com


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## LoveMyDogs

Why on earth would I spay my female?


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## DunRingill

LoveMyDogs said:


> We have been working with our dog at our club since she has been a pup and we just love the breed. If we can get her titled and show others how wonderful a GSD really is that would be good enough for me. My husband would like to buy a couple dogs and start breeding them we are just in love with the GSD. This is way I asked about our male dog we really want to give him the life Elsa has and do what GSD love to do. We would also like to stud him out if everything look good with him in a couple of years.


I don't even know where to start......

Almost everyone has a dog they think is so wonderful s/he should be used for breeding. VERY few actually have a dog that should be bred. There's a whole lot to it and it's a very expensive proposition if you plan on doing it right. Health tests, training, titling, that's just the beginning. Don't even want to go into the actual expense of breeding if the bitch needs a c-section or if there's something wrong with any of the puppies. Doing this right is not easy, cheap, and it's not for the faint of heart. Things can and do go wrong. There's a lot more to it than having a decent looking dog and a decent looking bitch, and putting them together! 

I have 3 dogs here from very good lines, with names in the pedigree that many would recognize. My dogs are titled in multiple venues. (well the youngster isn't titled YET, she's just a puppy.) None of them are being used for breeding. 

Curious, what lines are your dogs from?


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## Rott-n-GSDs

LoveMyDogs said:


> We have been working with our dog at our club since she has been a pup and we just love the breed. If we can get her titled and show others how wonderful a GSD really is that would be good enough for me. My husband would like to buy a couple dogs and start breeding them we are just in love with the GSD. This is way I asked about our male dog we really want to give him the life Elsa has and do what GSD love to do. We would also like to stud him out if everything look good with him in a couple of years.


Honestly if you love the breed... consider NOT breeding.

There are thousands upon thousands of unwanted dogs, including PUREBRED and PAPERED GSDs dying in shelters.

You need to ask yourself... am I prepared to LOSE my dog? Because females can and DO have complications relating to pregnancy and labor and you need to face the possibility that the female could die during whelping.

Are you prepared to spend thousands of dollars on an emergency c-section? What about complications with the puppies?

Are you prepared to spend a lot of money certifying that your dogs don't have hip or elbow dysplasia, or eye or thyroid conditions? 

Are you prepared to keep tabs on any puppies your dogs produce, INCLUDING those you "stud out" your male for? Are you prepared to take responsibility for the ones that will inevitably end up in shelters and rescues... because your buyers decide they don't have time for a puppy, can't handle a puppy, or simply don't want the dog now that it's not a cute puppy anymore?

I LOVE the GSD breed and for that reason, I choose to leave the breeding up to experienced, responsible breeders.


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## LoveMyDogs

DunRingill said:


> I don't even know where to start......
> 
> Almost everyone has a dog they think is so wonderful s/he should be used for breeding. VERY few actually have a dog that should be bred. There's a whole lot to it and it's a very expensive proposition if you plan on doing it right. Health tests, training, titling, that's just the beginning. Don't even want to go into the actual expense of breeding if the bitch needs a c-section or if there's something wrong with any of the puppies. Doing this right is not easy, cheap, and it's not for the faint of heart. Things can and do go wrong. There's a lot more to it than having a decent looking dog and a decent looking bitch, and putting them together!
> 
> I have 3 dogs here from very good lines, with names in the pedigree that many would recognize. My dogs are titled in multiple venues. (well the youngster isn't titled YET, she's just a puppy.) None of them are being used for breeding.
> 
> Curious, what lines are your dogs from?


We bought Elsa from German Shepherd dogs for sale, German Shepherd puppies for sale


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## GSDElsa

What are her parents though? There are a lot of different litters, including showlines from elsa's breeder.


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## NancyJ

LoveMyDogs said:


> Why on earth would I spay my female?


Valid question ........but I would not neuter the male before his growth plates closed. And I would be careful to prevent an oops litter.


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## LoveMyDogs

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Honestly if you love the breed... consider NOT breeding.
> 
> There are thousands upon thousands of unwanted dogs, including PUREBRED and PAPERED GSDs dying in shelters.
> 
> You need to ask yourself... am I prepared to LOSE my dog? Because females can and DO have complications relating to pregnancy and labor and you need to face the possibility that the female could die during whelping.
> 
> Are you prepared to spend thousands of dollars on an emergency c-section? What about complications with the puppies?
> 
> Are you prepared to spend a lot of money certifying that your dogs don't have hip or elbow dysplasia, or eye or thyroid conditions?
> 
> Are you prepared to keep tabs on any puppies your dogs produce, INCLUDING those you "stud out" your male for? Are you prepared to take responsibility for the ones that will inevitably end up in shelters and rescues... because your buyers decide they don't have time for a puppy, can't handle a puppy, or simply don't want the dog now that it's not a cute puppy anymore?
> 
> I LOVE the GSD breed and for that reason, I choose to leave the breeding up to experienced, responsible breeders.


I would love to be one day a Experience, responsible breeder.


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## NancyJ

I am *guessing* this is a littermate to the female in question since is it and E litter vom haus miller - could be wrong. Age is about right.

Euros Vom Haus Miller - German shepherd dog

The new male puppy is a grab bag.


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## LoveMyDogs

GSDElsa said:


> What are her parents though? There are a lot of different litters, including showlines from elsa's breeder.


Her parents are a working line here is her daddy V Carlo vom Haus Ehrlich, SchH3, IPO3
and her mother passed I noticed she is not on his sight anymore.


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## GSDElsa

Woah...I don't know a lot about pedigrees overall, but the sire is a combo of West German Showlines, West German Working Lines, and Czech. Generally do not see WGSL and Czech lines mixed (sometimes WGSL's and WGWL's). Very different dogs.

Someone with more knowledge can chime in more but generally not the best idea.

I can't imagine Elsa and the new puppy are going to be a good pair to breed.


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## DnP

Here is where the OPs pup is coming from:

Shannons Shepherds

And now I will sit back and watch the fun begin...


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## DunRingill

LoveMyDogs said:


> Here is a link to her blog with links click on the sire and Brandi www.shannonsshepherds.blogspot.com


Are you talking about the litter currently shown on the blog? The litter where the breeder says "These puppies are for companions only, no breeders." 

Is this the sire?* Shannon's Tobias Vom Wolf Cimmerian *If so, HE shouldn't be used for breeding. He's only 1.5 years old NOW so he can't be OFA'd. He's untitled, and there are no titles in recent generations of his pedigree. 

If you want to buy a puppy from this litter, understand that you are buying a pet puppy. NOTHING wrong with that, but you should understand what you're paying for.


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## gsdraven

LoveMyDogs said:


> I would love to be one day a Experience, responsible breeder.


Being a responsible breeder means educating yourself BEFORE you start breeding. You need so much knowledge about different lines and what they produce in terms of health and temperament BEFORE you start putting dogs together. It isn't the other way around, you don't learn through doing.

Have you seen these threads?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/149422-so-you-want-breeder.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## DunRingill

And it all comes down to the original question, "Would you breed an unregistered dog?" No, absolutely not. and I wouldn't breed TO an unregistered dog.


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## holland

I don't consider this fun. If the female was a rescue as in from the shelter no I would never breed her-because usually when you get a dog from a shelter they expect that you will not breed her-so to me thats just really not ok-


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## LaRen616

If you are serious about breeding dogs and want to be a good breeder, then please learn as much as you can first. Find a reputable breeder and learn from him/her, see if you can help him/her when they have a litter. Experience the whole process before doing it yourself.

No shelter dog should be bred, ever. JMO

If you do not want to become a reputable breeder then please do not breed your dog, there are already way too many animals dying in shelters everyday because people "wanted a puppy from their dog" or they wanted to make a quick buck or their unaltered animal got out and bred with another dog or strays that keep reproducing. So please go take a look at your local animal shelter, more than half of those dogs in there will not be making it back out. 

If more people were responsible then we wouldn't have so many animals dying every single day in shelters. 

Breeding should be left to reputable Breeders, people that are looking to better the breed, people looking to breed healthier GSD's and GSD's that have great temperment and the ability to preform any task that their owner gives to them.


You have to look at the big picture, if you bring 10 puppies into the world when you breed your GSD and 2 of those puppies get bred and they have 10 puppies and 2 of those puppies get bred and they have 10 puppies each, in a matter of about 5-10 years *YOU* brought 50 more puppies into this world when there are already puppies dying in shelters everyday because there are not enough homes for them all.

Your puppies will have puppies, and those puppies will have puppies........ the cycle will continue.


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## LoveMyDogs

So this would be a bad move to buy this puppy. He would just be a family dog forsure this we knew. We were really just scared for Elsa


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## DnP

I suspect that the folks who are selling the OP the pup are not being 100% truthful. No reputable rescue or shelter is going to allow a dog to be bred after being adopted out. Not only that, these folks also claim NOT to be breeders (says so on their website).

To the OP, I would not breed this pup when he comes to a certain age. I do not think that you have been told the truth by the "non-breeder" that you purchased the dog from.

If you seriously WANT to become a breeder, then seriously think about having a reputable breeder for a mentor. Not only read the thread on reputable breeders, you should also read the thread about "So you want to be a breeder". The OP on that thread has experience breeding and yet, she learned a big lesson with her last litter.


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## holland

If you buy the pup you a supporting someone having bred a rescue -I wouldn't and I have no idea what you mean by you are sacred for Elsa?


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## DnP

LoveMyDogs said:


> So this would be a bad move to buy this puppy. He would just be a family dog forsure this we knew. We were really just scared for Elsa


A bad move...depends on how you look at it. You would be supporting a BYB (backyard beeder) who is doing nothing to promote the gsd breed, despite what they may "think".

As far as being scared for Elsa...unless you are prepared to manage two intact adults, one female and one male, I wouldn't get the pup. Many folks are very good at managing opposite sex intact dogs in their households, but they will tell you that it requires a bit of work and vigilance.


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## DnP

holland said:


> If you buy the pup you a supporting someone having bred a rescue -I wouldn't and I have no idea what you mean by you are sacred for Elsa?


I think the OP means he's scared for Elsa becoming pregnant from the male puppy when he gets older.


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## holland

Well that could be easily remedied


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## KLCecil

This is the original post from the OP;
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...y-coming-home-friday-i-have-akc-question.html

OP refer to http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## LoveMyDogs

Thanks for all your help


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## unloader

Just to add something I didn't see mentioned... on the Shannons Shepherds site http://shannonsshepherds.blogspot.com/ , it says


> These puppies are for companions only, no breeders.


So, unless they just added that, why would you even consider breeding? Or did I miss something?


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## LoveMyDogs

Brandi came from a really bad home. she was bleeding and injuried. I just found this out. Could this have effect on the puppies?


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## LoveMyDogs

unloader said:


> Just to add something I didn't see mentioned... on the Shannons Shepherds site Shannons Shepherds , it says So, unless they just added that, why would you even consider breeding? Or did I miss something?


I was just wondering if these types of puppies could be stud dogs thats all.


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## LoveMyDogs

Now I am wondering about the parents hips. I hope are little boy is okay. Do you think I should ask her to sell him for less money? I don't think he is worth less but i don't want to get ripped off either.


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## LoveMyDogs

She said moms hips and elbows were checked through penn hips and elbows. Daddy no he is to young she said. She offers a guarantee on them due to her confidence with the bloodlines and quality of the line and their hip certifications. We are really excited and can't wait to hold him.


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## TriadGSD

if the female was a rescue dog she sould of been spayed before the was given


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## WarrantsWifey

They bred a male that was too young to have his hips scanned?!


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## GSDElsa

Can you back out of this? Sounds like a mess all around...


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## LaRen616

GSDElsa said:


> Can you back out of this? Sounds like a mess all around...


I agree :thumbup:

Run Forest, RUN!


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## LoveMyDogs

I think the flight is already booked and I would be out my $200.00. deposit. I am not sure I want to back out. Does it really sound that bad. The family seems really nice and they were upfront with everything she answered every question.


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## GSDElsa

Can I ask a question...how exactly did you end up with this "breeder" (I don't care what they call themselves, they are). IT seems like you did relatively well with your female....so how did you get into this mess?

I can't believe they would go pull a dog from what--a shelter--and come back and breed her to a dog that is 18 months old and completely non health tested and then claim they aren't a breeder to boot.

There are sooo many good dogs in rescue for less money than you are paying for this and it would be on the up and up and not supporting people's desire to make money off poor breeding practices.


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## WarrantsWifey

Two hundred isn't a lot to lose considering your A.)Not looking for a companion pet B.)This is just too fishy, a dog bred too young to have hips penned. C.)Momma was from a rescue, and was bloody and other things? D.) Momma died, WHY?!

The list can go on, I would have never put a deposit on this litter. You payed almost as much for your dog as I did my Czech dog who came from AMAZING pedigree, is AKC registered, and it not "pet quality", he is a working GSD....


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## trudy

this sounds really bad, they tell people to xray their dogs as they are guaranteed, BUT they haven't xrayed any of theirs. The ONLY way to know fi you have bad hips is to xray!!!! Even if the parents were done, the offspring can still be dysplastic!!!!! All breeding stock should be x rayed and CERTIFIED, allso what temperment tests have they done?? What obedience?? To my mind this is a puppy mill. lots of puppy mills are with quaker, mennonite and various religious sects, often with home schooling and right wing religions. 

RUN, realize the lost $200 is the price you paid to learn the valuable lesson of research first!!!!! This boy will not be worth the money for his shots and food, he will NEVER be worthy of breeding!!!!! Keep training your girl and when she is well trained, go to the other Reputable German Shepherd people you have met while trialing and titling her, ask them for advice and pay to use their suggested stud. Then you can try this breeding thing. If after learning more about your dog, her strengths and weaknesses, and have bred to a male that compliments her, then think about keeping the very best pup and training him/her, and take your time. learn lots!!!!


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## WarrantsWifey

trudy said:


> this sounds really bad, they tell people to xray their dogs as they are guaranteed, BUT they haven't xrayed any of theirs. The ONLY way to know fi you have bad hips is to xray!!!! Even if the parents were done, the offspring can still be dysplastic!!!!! All breeding stock should be x rayed and CERTIFIED, allso what temperment tests have they done?? What obedience?? To my mind this is a puppy mill. lots of puppy mills are with quaker, mennonite and various religious sects, often with home schooling and right wing religions.
> 
> RUN, realize the lost $200 is the price you paid to learn the valuable lesson of research first!!!!! This boy will not be worth the money for his shots and food, he will NEVER be worthy of breeding!!!!! Keep training your girl and when she is well trained, go to the other Reputable German Shepherd people you have met while trialing and titling her, ask them for advice and pay to use their suggested stud. Then you can try this breeding thing. If after learning more about your dog, her strengths and weaknesses, and have bred to a male that compliments her, then think about keeping the very best pup and training him/her, and take your time. learn lots!!!!


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## LoveMyDogs

I just taked to her and found out she was not a rescue dog. I am not sure how she came to find her. I think and I am not 100% on this that she might have wanted to breed her down the road because her hips were checked and she did not spayed her. She even had the origanal breeder register her but the abusive owner prior to her must have registerd her after and got the police involved so the info she got on Brandi is from the first breeder of Brandi.


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## Minnieski

Where the heck are the moderators?

I think the consensus on the question is no, you should not breed your dog. If you want to become a reputable breeder then the advice is to find a mentor and work with them, research the dogs, and see if you want to proceed. 

In all honestly, I will never buy a dog from a breeder that hasn't x-rayed their breeding stock. I paid $600 for Tanner because I bought him from a TRAINER that I trusted, and he is a HUGE pile of nerves and I'm not sure about his hips yet. It was the biggest mistake I could have made, but I trusted the trainer and got burned. You can look up my other posts if you want to see the problems we've been working through with him, and I've had him since he was 7 weeks old. He's also 1/2 Czech and 1/2 WGSL - a bad combo for him. My next dog may cost more, but I'm going with a breeder that knows what the heck they're doing. 

Religion has nothing to do with how this pup is going to turn out.


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## LoveMyDogs

We feel in love with this puppy and we are buying him. The family is so kind and I hope down the road everything works out for them and all the puppies. Thank you again


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## JakodaCD OA

Why the need for a moderator? I don't see anyting out of line at this point but if you need one, hit the mod button since I don't moderate this forum.

LoveMyDogs, you came here and asked a question, you may not like the answers you got, and obviously don't wish to take the advice of people who have alot of gsd knowledge. 

I can ONLY hope this "breeder" stands by their words as in "these are NOT for breeding/ companions only", and YOU neuter this dog. 

It's easy to fall in love with those cute bundles of fluff, and they may be the nicest people in the world and genuinely love their dogs, it does not make it 'right' tho.

Good luck with your puppy


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## LaRen616

Not to mention the possibility of having several health problems later on in the future.

When you get a puppy from a reputable breeder you have a better chance of having a healthier pup.


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## LoveMyDogs

Minnieski said:


> Where the heck are the moderators?
> 
> I think the consensus on the question is no, you should not breed your dog. If you want to become a reputable breeder then the advice is to find a mentor and work with them, research the dogs, and see if you want to proceed.
> 
> In all honestly, I will never buy a dog from a breeder that hasn't x-rayed their breeding stock. I paid $600 for Tanner because I bought him from a TRAINER that I trusted, and he is a HUGE pile of nerves and I'm not sure about his hips yet. It was the biggest mistake I could have made, but I trusted the trainer and got burned. You can look up my other posts if you want to see the problems we've been working through with him, and I've had him since he was 7 weeks old. He's also 1/2 Czech and 1/2 WGSL - a bad combo for him. My next dog may cost more, but I'm going with a breeder that knows what the heck they're doing.
> 
> Religion has nothing to do with how this pup is going to turn out.


We don't plan on breeding him, we will just do events with him. He has to wait till he's 2 to get fixed and we will just have to keep Elsa and him away from each other during her heat cycle.

I was thinking the same what does Religion have to do with this. I was also thinking I see a lot of people on here with mixed breeds, not so bad is it. We had a dob/GSD growing up she lived 20 yrs she was the best. She was not a purebread but a mix so there goes the idea of bad turn outs.


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## JakodaCD OA

why wait until he's 2 to neuter? I know some think they should wait until they are older, but if I had an intact male and female , one would be getting fixed as soon as 6 months to prevent unwanted pregnancy.


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## WarrantsWifey

LoveMyDogs said:


> We don't plan on breeding him, we will just do events with him. He has to wait till he's 2 to get fixed and we will just have to keep Elsa and him away from each other during her heat cycle.
> 
> I was thinking the same what does Religion have to do with this. I was also thinking I see a lot of people on here with mixed breeds, not so bad is it. We had a dob/GSD growing up she lived 20 yrs she was the best. She was not a purebread but a mix so there goes the idea of bad turn outs.



Elsa's average cycle can be three weeks or 21-days, she can go into regular cycles usually every six to eight months. It's also quite typical to be in heat twice a year, what if you have an oops litter in that two years?! What are you going to do then??


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## GSDGunner

> I was thinking the same what does Religion have to do with this.


I believe that came from this post.



trudy said:


> To my mind this is a puppy mill. lots of puppy mills are with quaker, mennonite and various religious sects, often with home schooling and right wing religions.


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## trudy

how did you fall in love with him??? You haven't met him yet, you said his flight was booked.. Also people with mixed breeds aren't paying lots of $$, secondly they aren't ordering them and flying them to anywhere. Also hopefully they aren't looking to be a breeder shortly down the road., 

I can guarantee a year from now you will have an oops litter, and will say but I tried... oh well we can sell the pups for $?? whatever, and too bad about hips, and other health issues and when the average person says "all German Shepherds have bad hips, are vicious or nervous, have other health issues, you will know you helped make this statement true.

You came for advice, why?? When your mind was made up, did you think we would all say WOW, how lucky adn what a great deal,maybe we can all order one from your up coming litter?? These are pet quality dogs with NO health clearances, no tempermetn testing, no titles or working abilities proven... Why would you get a pup from a cute pic?? Millions of cute pups out there, and some in your own back yard at a shelter near you. So tell the truth you thought here is a cheap dog I can breed to my girl and stud him out to other unsuspecting GS owners, thanks to adding to the pet population problem


----------



## holland

I think the post is a hoax-hmm might be a neat puppy name


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## onyx'girl

I'd rather lose the $200 than buy a pup that may have HD, ED or who knows what else health wise, and then consider the temperament. 
LoveMyDogs....where did you find this breeder, thru a google search?


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## LoveMyDogs

trudy said:


> how did you fall in love with him??? You haven't met him yet, you said his flight was booked.. Also people with mixed breeds aren't paying lots of $$, secondly they aren't ordering them and flying them to anywhere. Also hopefully they aren't looking to be a breeder shortly down the road.,
> 
> I can guarantee a year from now you will have an oops litter, and will say but I tried... oh well we can sell the pups for $?? whatever, and too bad about hips, and other health issues and when the average person says "all German Shepherds have bad hips, are vicious or nervous, have other health issues, you will know you helped make this statement true.
> 
> You came for advice, why?? When your mind was made up, did you think we would all say WOW, how lucky adn what a great deal,maybe we can all order one from your up coming litter?? These are pet quality dogs with NO health clearances, no tempermetn testing, no titles or working abilities proven... Why would you get a pup from a cute pic?? Millions of cute pups out there, and some in your own back yard at a shelter near you. So tell the truth you thought here is a cheap dog I can breed to my girl and stud him out to other unsuspecting GS owners, thanks to adding to the pet population problem


I did come for advice and I heard many things and I thank you all for your thoughts. My mind was not made up completly but I did tell the family I was going to buy him and she turned away another family. I would never bread dogs that had bad hips. I don't think titles are the all in all with a dog. I was from the start wondering why he was so cheap but she explained to me that she could not get the mommies AKC paperowork. We are working Elsa towards titles so I don't think I want her with our new little boy. But if people have Opps should they just kill the puppies, things do happen to nice people. I am glad there are familes willing to take the time to find good homes for puppies that are unplanned.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

onyx'girl said:


> I'd rather lose the $200 than buy a pup that may have HD, ED or who knows what else health wise, and then consider the temperament.
> LoveMyDogs....where did you find this breeder, thru a google search?


You know Elsa came from a top breeder and 2 puppies out of that litter had bad hips. You don't know how your puppy will be till they are a little older and tested for HD, ED and temperament. Maybe we should all buy puppies when they are 2yrs old and we have 100% marks across the board. Now I want to know are those people dog lovers or not, you know the ones that return dogs when they don't have that perfect dog.


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## onyx'girl

Temperament comes from the parents, the breeders raising program and you can usually tell from what the breeder has produced in the past as far a drive/nerve etc. If you haven't had any health tests run on the parents, it sure doesn't help the odds. 
Allergies are another problem, does the lines of the parents have any health issues that you are aware of?
Where did you find this breeder of the male you are looking at?


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## Emoore

Call me Nostradamous, 'cause I can see 8 or 10 months into the future on this one. . .


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## BOHICA Bay

Emoore said:


> Call me Nostradamous, 'cause I can see 8 or 10 months into the future on this one. . .


Is what you are seeing the word, "oops"?


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## LoveMyDogs

BOHICA Bay said:


> Is what you are seeing the word, "oops"?


How do you know this? How can you say such a thing.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

onyx'girl said:


> Temperament comes from the parents, the breeders raising program and you can usually tell from what the breeder has produced in the past as far a drive/nerve etc. If you haven't had any health tests run on the parents, it sure doesn't help the odds.
> Allergies are another problem, does the lines of the parents have any health issues that you are aware of?
> Where did you find this breeder of the male you are looking at?


Both parents have great lines.

Shannons Shepherds: Mommy (Dam)

and the Sire

Shannons Shepherds: Daddy (Sire)


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I have to say,,Love, you ask for advice, and heard it, but you are making excuse after excuse why there is nothing wrong with this entire scenerio..

You can do what you want, just accept it for what it is, a breeding that should not have taken place for ALOT of reasons.


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## Emoore

LoveMyDogs said:


> How do you know this? How can you say such a thing.


Because you have an un-spayed female that you've already said "why on earth would I spay my female?" You've told us you've decided to get this male and that you don't plan to neuter him until he's two. You've said you're "scared" for your female. You've admitted a desire to be a breeder. You've asked about whether a male like the one you're getting could make a good stud dog. I really hope I'm wrong, but everything here adds up to an "oops" litter in 8 to 12 months.


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## GSDElsa

GSDElsa said:


> Can I ask a question...how exactly did you end up with this "breeder" (I don't care what they call themselves, they are). IT seems like you did relatively well with your female....so how did you get into this mess?


You still haven't answered this quesiton.

I don't know why...I'm smelling troll? Maybe not....the whole thing just doesn't seem right.


----------



## GSD Fan

LoveMyDogs said:


> Why on earth would I spay my female?


Because if your female is not breed worthy or you are not ready to become a breeder, then spaying your female would be the right thing to do, unless you can keep her safe in heat.

So, what can your female bring to the German Shepherd breed? What makes you want to breed your female? Do you want to breed her or are you looking for a female to breed?


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## NancyJ

Love My Dogs

I think part of the point Please stay and learn. IF you are interested in breeding slow, over time, do it right and realize you will probably not even break even. Take your female and work with her and get advice as was suggested. 

If you understood the dogs more you would know that there is absolutely nothing impressive about the pups pedigree. People usually care about the grandparents if they were significant dogs that contributed to the breed but the parents accomplishments and screenings are also important.

The ancestors for the male that are so famous are WAY back in the pedigree - you say he is czech but there is only a smattering of that and ddr way back. He is also a hodgepodoge of a dog.
6 gen. pedigree for Shannon's Tobias Vom Wolf Cimmerian - German shepherd dog

The dam - I don't know.

I know you feel insulted but everyone has to start somewhere and there are some people here (not me) who really really know pedigrees and how to evaluate breeding stock.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

jocoyn said:


> Love My Dogs
> 
> I think part of the point Please stay and learn. IF you are interested in breeding slow, over time, do it right and realize you will probably not even break even. Take your female and work with her and get advice as was suggested.
> 
> If you understood the dogs more you would know that there is absolutely nothing impressive about the pups pedigree. People usually care about the grandparents if they were significant dogs that contributed to the breed but the parents accomplishments and screenings are also important.
> 
> The ancestors for the male that are so famous are WAY back in the pedigree - you say he is czech but there is only a smattering of that and ddr way back. He is also a hodgepodoge of a dog.
> 6 gen. pedigree for Shannon's Tobias Vom Wolf Cimmerian - German shepherd dog
> 
> The dam - I don't know.
> 
> I know you feel insulted but everyone has to start somewhere and there are some people here (not me) who really really know pedigrees and how to evaluate breeding stock.


What is a hodgepodoge of a dog? I am still learning how to read into the pedigree lines. She said these puppies should go for $3000.00 if the Akc went through. What is wrong with the line how can you tell. Sorry like I said I am new at this.


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## GSDElsa

LoveMyDogs said:


> What is a hodgepodoge of a dog? I am still learning how to read into the pedigree lines. She said these puppies should go for $3000.00 if the Akc went through. What is wrong with the line how can you tell. Sorry like I said I am new at this.


She's feeding you a huge line of BS.

Working lines don't go for that price. Showline people aren't going to pay top dollar for a dog with Czech and WGWL in it. The dam is an SG rating which is practially unheard of in SL dogs. The father doesn't have titled dogs for generations.

All BS. The dogs are going for for what she can sell them. Don't try and convince yourself you're getting a deal.


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## onyx'girl

He is a mixes up bag of lines, and from his pic is quite large?
Just because a dog can be AKC registered and put on the PDB doesn't make it good lines or breedworthy. As you are new at this, I would wait on getting that male, train your female, and spay her before you bring an intact male into the picture.


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## lhczth

$3000??? Only in this puppy producer's imagination. 

The dam is show lines. She has a fairly high ZW:94 (this number gives an indication of her propensity to produce good hips, the lower the number the better). Just for future reference her sire has a2 hips (fast normal) and her dam as 'b' elbows. 

The sire is a mish mash of lines. He has show lines, some pet lines, then some working lines mixed with DDR, and then some Czech. There are a lot of dogs in the sire's pedigree that have no hip/elbow ratings listed and I am not going to search for them. 

Enjoy your puppy and I hope he lives a long and healthy life and NEVER produces a single puppy of his own.


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## Emoore

Just thought I'd translate some of this into English. 




GSDElsa said:


> The dam is an SG rating which is practially unheard of in SL dogs.


 SG is a conformation rating. The best is VA, next is V, next is SG, and under that is G. Anything lower than a G is considered unsuitable for breeding. Working-line dogs are generally SG with some V. Showline dogs are generally V or VA. It's very very rare to see a showline with an SG being bred, because it's not a good rating for a showline dog. 



LoveMyDogs said:


> What is a hodgepodoge of a dog?


 A dog with a mixed-up mishmash of bloodlines. 



lhczth said:


> The dam is show lines. She has a fairly high ZW:94 (this number gives an indication of her propensity to produce good hips, the lower the number the better). Just for future reference her sire has a2 hips (fast normal) and her dam as 'b' elbows.


A ZW score of 94 means she has a somewhat high chance of producing bad hips. The score comes from taking into account her own hip score and the hip scores of her ancestors and relatives. A2 hips and b elbows are also not the greatest. 

Brandi is really not a dog that should be bred, even if her AKC paperwork were not available. 

The sire is a longcoat who is too young to have his hips checked. He should also not be bred.


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## Minnieski

Look, I don't know what this puppy is going to turn out like, no one does. But as an owner of a $600 hodgepodge dog who has to live with his issues every day, I would NOT recommend going this route. Yes, you made a commitment to the breeder, and you would loose your $200 deposit. But I can tell you that behavior management on a poorly bred dog costs a lot more than $200. It also costs time, creates anxiety, and disrupts your life. Will this pup have problems? Who knows. He might be perfect. He might be a huge mess. The point is that it's really a crapshoot with this pup. The breeder lied to you about the pricing if AKC registration were available (no one would pay $3000). What else is she not telling you? Going with a good breeder can cut down on the chance of dog with future issues - health or behavioral. Please ignore any posts that bash you and pay attention to the advice of other members. It could save you a lot of trouble in the future.


----------



## GSD Fan

Minnieski said:


> Look, I don't know what this puppy is going to turn out like, no one does. But as an owner of a $600 hodgepodge dog who has to live with his issues every day, I would NOT recommend going this route. Yes, you made a commitment to the breeder, and you would loose your $200 deposit. But I can tell you that behavior management on a poorly bred dog costs a lot more than $200. It also costs time, creates anxiety, and disrupts your life. Will this pup have problems? Who knows. He might be perfect. He might be a huge mess. The point is that it's really a crapshoot with this pup. The breeder lied to you about the pricing if AKC registration were available (no one would pay $3000). What else is she not telling you? Going with a good breeder can cut down on the chance of dog with future issues - health or behavioral. *Please ignore any posts that bash you and pay attention to the advice of other members. It could save you a lot of trouble in the future*.


:thumbup: Great advice!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

LoveMyDogs said:


> I was thinking the same what does Religion have to do with this.





GSDGunner said:


> I believe that came from this post.





trudy said:


> lots of puppy mills are with quaker, mennonite and various religious sects, often with home schooling and right wing religions.


And from the About Us link on the breeder's webpage:



> We are a plain, conservative Christian, homeschooling family that homesteads a small farm in the Ozark Mountains.


None of which has anything whatsoever to do with having good breeding practices.  Maybe they think that will make people trust them more. Oh, wait...... :laugh:


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## DunRingill

LoveMyDogs said:


> Both parents have great lines.


They do?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

trudy said:


> I can guarantee a year from now you will have an oops litter, and will say but I tried... oh well we can sell the pups for $?? whatever, and too bad about hips, and other health issues and when the average person says "all German Shepherds have bad hips, are vicious or nervous, have other health issues, you will know you helped make this statement true.
> 
> You came for advice, why?? When your mind was made up, did you think we would all say WOW, how lucky adn what a great deal,maybe we can all order one from your up coming litter?? These are pet quality dogs with NO health clearances, no tempermetn testing, no titles or working abilities proven... Why would you get a pup from a cute pic?? Millions of cute pups out there, and some in your own back yard at a shelter near you. So tell the truth you thought here is a cheap dog I can breed to my girl and stud him out to other unsuspecting GS owners, thanks to adding to the pet population problem


Sadly, I think you're absolutely right.


----------



## spiritsmom

You obviously know how to find a good breeder - the kennel your bitch came from looks to be one. So why this breeder and this puppy? I don't get it. Especially if you want to breed in the future. Why get a male at all? I would work with the girl you have and down the road go to a similar quality breeder and get another female - no chance of an in home oops happening that way (outside is a whole other story). You're mixing lines/types of dogs and if this male bred your female (which I can completely see happening) it wouldn't be a good combo. There seems to be no thought behind the breeding of this male puppy you seek - just people who had a male and a female and let them procreate. If you want that type then just save the $300 shipping fee and buy a $200 GSD puppy from a local backyard breeder. You'd get the same "quality" that way as what you are paying to have shipped to you. Probably too late to even try to change your mind on this male, but why are you so set on him and this breeder? What is it that even drew you towards them in the first place? I don't see what is so awesome about this puppy's lines and I find it deplorable that they bred a rescued dog in the first place. That is just heinous. And you are supporting them yet you yourself say that you want to become a reputable breeder someday. Stop giving money to bad breeders would be a great way to start!

I really hope that we don't see a post from you 6 mos down the road starting with "well we tried to keep them apart, but....". 

You've been given excellent advice numerous times in this thread, I just hope you do something with it.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

LoveMyDogs said:


> But if people have Opps should they just kill the puppies, things do happen to nice people.


Nobody is saying that. What they're saying is that people should make sure that they DON'T have "oops" litters. If you don't plan to breed your dogs and you can't be 100% certain that you will be able to keep them separated for a month every time your female is in heat, you should spay or neuter. 

It's like having sex without using birth control and then saying "oops, I got pregnant" because you didn't PLAN to get pregnant, it just happened. It "just happened" because you failed to take the necessary precautions to prevent it.


----------



## NancyJ

And please stay......and learn and then eventuallly teach. I think many of us started our journey with GSDs thinking our new dog was "all that" and it was all that as a beloved member of the family but maybe we started looking and learning as we were dealing with many flaws or we thought about breeding the dog we though had such a great pedigree, and then learned all the hoops the truly good breeders go through to maximize the probability they are producing top quality stock.


----------



## carmspack

*would you breed a non akc dog*

" My husband would like to buy a couple dogs and start breeding them we are just in love with the GSD. 
AND

We would also like to stud him out if everything look good with him in a couple of years" that is what the OP said on page 2 


Sounds to me that the interest is commercial. Please do not just go and buy a bunch of dogs and start breeding them. And the non akc male you are looking at you are offering him for public stud. The people you will get will be back yard breeders whose only criterion be "sperm" . That's it. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## LoveMyDogs

I was looking and saw that both dogs have a great past but it has been a while since anyone has carried on what the great grandparents did.

Brandi has a AKC number I can't belive she can't reg her. I found out she was not a rescue dog. She bought it from a lady that did not want her anymore and mishandle her. The breeder found out and had this ladies dogs taken away. Since the dog was registerd to this crappy lady that hurt Brandi they could not release her papers. 

2X WORLD SIEGER VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land is Brandi's Grandpa if I am reading it right.

Brandis AKC number s listed I don't understand it. The mom is reg already does that mean anything. 

Troll vom Wald Gipfel - German shepherd dog Bandi's Sire. Is this good even though it looks like people stopped training the line. How sad what a waste of a great family line.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

I thought this would just be a great house dog we have never owned a male GSD. But I still would like his lines to look good. My husband said we will be fixing him at 6 months if we can.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

We will not be getting the puppy. I had to just step back and take all of this in. We want to breed and this puppy really could be a mess. We knew we had to fix him and fast so we did not have a opps, I know what we want to do and this would have been a mistake. My husband said no papers no puppy, we have worked hard these last 2 yrs with Elsa and we see what buying a top dog means. We hope to have Elsa titled this year and we will be looking at a male puppy from a breeder like the one we bought elsa from. 

Thank you for all your help.


----------



## gsdraven

LoveMyDogs said:


> We hope to have Elsa titled this year


Maybe you said it and I missed it but what are you having her titled in?


----------



## onyx'girl

Papers still do not make a dog breedworthy!!! I hope you learn more about the breed, pedigrees and what it takes to start a good breeding program. Look at the links provided in this thread.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

gsdraven said:


> Maybe you said it and I missed it but what are you having her titled in?


tracking, obedience and protection we fell in love with the sport so we will be doing a lot of learning over the next few years. 

Elsa's hip report should be back next week. Then we will know how far we can go with her. When we bought her her breeder asked us if we would mind breeding her and working her because he saw a ton of talent in her. We bought her at 5 months and she was just awsome.

So next week is the big week, if it is not good we will fix her and have a well trained family dog thats for sure.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

onyx'girl said:


> Papers still do not make a dog breedworthy!!! I hope you learn more about the breed, pedigrees and what it takes to start a good breeding program. Look at the links provided in this thread.


Thank you I will be doing just that. I spent about 6 hrs last night just reading and watching our dvd's.


----------



## NancyJ

You know instead of buying a puppy to be a stud you may want to consider working with your breeder. Even if you get the best combo on paper it may not work out. I think if I WERE planning on breeding I would be buying the best females money could buy and then breeding to the top males out there.........and it takes a lot of work to do that.


----------



## LoveMyDogs

jocoyn said:


> You know instead of buying a puppy to be a stud you may want to consider working with your breeder. Even if you get the best combo on paper it may not work out. I think if I WERE planning on breeding I would be buying the best females money could buy and then breeding to the top males out there.........and it takes a lot of work to do that.


We are going to be working with our breeder. We may buy another Female will see that might be the way we go. I'm going to just focus on Elsa and see how it goes and how she does. Were willing to wait for the right dogs before we breed we hope Elsa is part of it but we will see.


----------



## Samba

Many people do not "buy" a stud dog. Some people are able to get their hands on or produce an excellent stud dog. But generally, stud dogs are out there for choosing to breed to in order to improve a breeding program. 

Buying two really nice dogs and putting them together is not good breeding. It takes so much more knowledge and experience. I am sorry that there are so many examples of just "pure bred dog producing" that people new to the arena often believe this is how it is done. 

I have been with the breed twelve years. I train and try to get titles on my dogs. I study the breed also when I get a chance. Still not ready to be a breeder of good dogs.


----------



## NancyJ

I was actually relieved to find out my dog was shooting blanks. I had an experienced breeder wanting to breed to him. He has a breedworthy pedigree, OFA good hips, clear elbows, good back, no disease issues or allergies, decent (not perfect) conformation, but I was worried about "what if" with the puppies since I want another solid working prospect for my next dog. .... I would reather pay a few thousand for a young green dog than risk making a bad puppy.


----------



## Minnieski

LoveMyDogs said:


> We will not be getting the puppy. I had to just step back and take all of this in. We want to breed and this puppy really could be a mess. We knew we had to fix him and fast so we did not have a opps, I know what we want to do and this would have been a mistake. My husband said no papers no puppy, we have worked hard these last 2 yrs with Elsa and we see what buying a top dog means. We hope to have Elsa titled this year and we will be looking at a male puppy from a breeder like the one we bought elsa from.
> 
> Thank you for all your help.


Thank you for taking the advice into account with your decision. I know it's tough.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

LoveMyDogs said:


> *You know Elsa came from a top breeder and 2 puppies out of that litter had bad hips.* You don't know how your puppy will be till they are a little older and tested for HD, ED and temperament. Maybe we should all buy puppies when they are 2yrs old and we have 100% marks across the board. Now I want to know are those people dog lovers or not, you know the ones that return dogs when they don't have that perfect dog.


This concerns me, since you are still planning on breeding Elsa.

You never did answer my questions I posed in an earlier post...

1) *Are you prepared to lose Elsa?* Complications from pregnancy and whelping can cause a bitch's death.

2) *Are you prepared to pay thousands for emergency c-sections and other complications?*

3) *Are you prepared to thoroughly screen all puppy homes?*

4) *Are you prepared to take puppies back when their owners can't keep them, or if they're treating them improperly?* Or will you just let them get dumped in shelters?


----------



## NancyJ

I really think LoveMyDogs is taking things into consideration and going the right route......She plans on working with her breeder and getting the proper clearances so there is time to do those things before considering.

That "thinking of becoming a breeder" sticky has a lot of good advice.


----------



## Samba

> would reather pay a few thousand for a young green dog than risk making a bad puppy.


Boy, I hear that. Breeding is not easy and I know of few who breed GSDs well. The population of German Shepherds is not in any danger so only the best of the best should be bred. It takes time to really get a good idea of what that is. 

A mentor is a good thing if the mentor is is good.

I do appreciate quality breeders... it is tough, sometimes devastating and hard work to do well. Certainly, I am not against breeding itself!


----------



## NancyJ

OTOH - I think we need to preserve diversity within the breed and sometimes breeders (more SL than WL) go overboard with linebreeding.

My dog is a Grim z PS and Ben Hozmi grandson....I don't think we have to worry about those lines disappearing into obscurity.


----------



## Samba

Very true, genetic diversity is probably long term survival necessity.


----------



## K9-CRAZY

LoveMyDogs said:


> My mind was not made up completly but I did tell the family I was going to buy him and she turned away another family.


This is a marketing ploy, there may or may not have been another family. People want what other people want, and those who sell product use this to their advantage. Harmless if you are selling knick knacks but potentially devastating when you are dealing with living creatures. 

There is no need to feel any responsibility or guilt if you say no to the puppy. You made a deposit, the breeder gets $200 for any 'inconvenience'. 

It's great that you decided to wait and work with the breeder. You should contact and learn from other breeders as well.

Tracy


----------



## matthewm11

LoveMyDogs said:


> We don't plan on breeding him, we will just do events with him. He has to wait till he's 2 to get fixed and we will just have to keep Elsa and him away from each other during her heat cycle.
> 
> I was thinking the same what does Religion have to do with this. I was also thinking I see a lot of people on here with mixed breeds, not so bad is it. We had a dob/GSD growing up she lived 20 yrs she was the best. She was not a purebread but a mix so there goes the idea of bad turn outs.


I have a mixed breed rescue who I wouldn't trade for the world, and so far she has been healthy and with a good temperment (knocking on wood) but that certainly does not mean I'd consider her worthy of breeding. She was the result of greedy back yard breeders and I wouldn't be suprised if some of her littermates haven't already been euthenized. I would never want to continue that same cycle. Even if she was a purebred from great lines with titles etc., breeding is one thing I'll let the pros handle.


----------



## Konotashi

A good breeding program's foundation are the bitches, NOT the studs. So like others said - study the lines, get as educated as you can, and instead of buying a male for stud, start with females.


----------



## DianaM

LoveMyDogs said:


> We will not be getting the puppy. I had to just step back and take all of this in. We want to breed and this puppy really could be a mess. We knew we had to fix him and fast so we did not have a opps, I know what we want to do and this would have been a mistake. My husband said no papers no puppy, we have worked hard these last 2 yrs with Elsa and we see what buying a top dog means. We hope to have Elsa titled this year and we will be looking at a male puppy from a breeder like the one we bought elsa from.
> 
> Thank you for all your help.


 
Excellent decision! This was a very wise move. Thank you for taking everything into consideration, for not getting defensive and instead thinking everything through. If you keep up with this mindset of listening to others who have been there and done that and are willing to accept mistakes and learn and grow, you have a good chance of becoming a good breeder one day. Please hang out on this forum and read through other threads to start learning. No one here intends to be nasty or to run you off. Many here have seen what happens and even own what happens when breeders make thoughtless decisions.

Keep in mind that registration papers only prove the dog is what it is. It is like the title of a car. If I have a title in my hand that says 2001 Ford F-150, then I know it is a half ton pickup from Ford that was built in the year 2001. I could look out the window and see a sparkling truck in showroom condition ready to drive and haul or I could see a rust bucket with the engine sitting in the bed as opposed to under the hood. It's the same with dogs. 

You may see lots of fancy names and titles, even the parents could be highly titled. But unless you KNOW the lines, you could be sold short. There are many dogs out there that have a SchH III title that probably couldn't find their way out of a paper bag, or ones that are so drivey and energetic but lack nerve strength to control their impulses so they have to be crated when unsupervised until they are too old to move. Some people breed just because Dog is a VA (highest rated in Sieger Show) and Bitch is from a Czech border patrol kennel that is also highly titled. The resulting litter will be an unpredictable nightmare. A good breeder can explain qualities about the sire and dam that led them to choose this breeding, explain the expectations of the breeding, get into some of the history of the lines and point out good dogs and what they bring to the line, and also discuss potential negatives that they expect with the litter (there are always downsides). For example, a breeder chooses a combination that will produce dogs that are absolutely bombproof, very stable, great for tracking and obedience and excellent family companions, but while they will do perfectly fine in schutzhund, the pups should not go to handlers intent on competing in schutzhund at a national level. There is nothing wrong with that, but the breeder has a responsibility to ensure the breeding is never one that could bring detriment to the breed as well as to ensure the pups get matched to the right homes.

If you are serious about exploring breeding and would like to do it right, I suggest finding a schutzhund club in your area to meet a bunch of different dogs (if you have not yet done so), see the sport in action, and talk to knowledgeable people. 

Good luck!


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## martemchik

Here is what I have figured out about breeding...

Step one is to decide you want to be a breeder, and then search for a BITCH that would be a great foundation for your program. You should not purchase a dog, and try to make it "fit" a program. We fall in love with our dogs way too quickly. Look at yourself, you fell in love with a picture, what if you saw another puppy? Wouldn't you have fallen in love with that one too? When you have a breeding program, you have to take emotion out of it as much as possible.

Step two is to title/cert/ect the bitch that you have chosen. Many times this bitch is co-owned by the breeder you got her from.

Step three is to find a stud, now this should be easy because if you have gone through step two for a long enough time you are in the world of showing/titling and you will probably know the male you want to breed to. Check the lines, they match up, and you go for it.

Now I know this is over simplified, but the main point I was trying to make is in step one. Purchasing a puppy and then wanting to breed it is never the way to start a program. We tend to look over our dog's faults once we start training. Now, if you can get non-biased opinions from others about her, and they tell you she's good to go (kind of what titling is) then she could be bred, but when you start messing with mixing lines, you're not really helping yourself. You not only cut yourself out of the working market, you also cut yourself off from the show market.

There are a lot of things you have to think about before starting to breed. I know you love the breed and all, but it sounds like you're very emotionally attached rather than actually wanting to improve on what we currently have.


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## Danielle609

So I get into 2 pages of this thread and think to myself "dejavu...I have heard this story before"...so then I look at the date...fooled again. Yet another thread to be ressurected from the dead..this is over a year old!


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## knwilk44

So, I've read every single post on this thread. I can honestly say that I'm so proud of the OP for making the right and ethical decision here. If you are scared for Elsa getting pregnant, why would you get a male dog to begin with? Why wouldn't you have gotten a female puppy? I do agree that papers aren't the be all in breeding dogs, but it sure does help with selling them because everyone else thinks that papers make the dog. I've seen a lot of AKC registered dogs that don't even compare to my pending canine registration dog through CKC. But, that still doesn't mean that I'll be breeding him... or my new little bi color LC female. None of them are titled and I don't want the expenses of raising pups. Sure it may be a fun idea but when you really break down the cost of raising a litter of puppies and then compare the cost you'd have in each pup, you'd have to sell each pup for on average $900 and I know most people in my area aren't going to pay that for a pup. I'm currently researching the breed best I can and talking with a breeder in my state that raises some really great quality dogs and OFA and CERF tests her dogs. I've heard enough horror stories that make me shy away from breeding. Puppies may be cute and all but I can sit back and adore everyone else's puppies and get my "puppy fix". I don't need/want to breed a litter of my own. It just appalls me that you'd get a male puppy yet be scared that Elsa may get pregnant. Especially if you aren't willing to get Elsa spayed. That makes no sense.


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## Caves216

onyx'girl said:


> Papers still do not make a dog breedworthy!!! I hope you learn more about the breed, pedigrees and what it takes to start a good breeding program. Look at the links provided in this thread.


Just playing devils advocate. So no one rip my head off- I've found this thread very informative. 

If papers do not necessarily make a dog breed worthy... could a non-papered dog be breed worthy?


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## selzer

Caves216 said:


> Just playing devils advocate. So no one rip my head off- I've found this thread very informative.
> 
> If papers do not necessarily make a dog breed worthy... could a non-papered dog be breed worthy?


Not really. Not today. I am sorry. But papers do not make the dog, but a dog without papers has an unknown ancestry. You can say, that the parents were both AKC, that you saw them, that one was SV and one was AKC, the breeder just didn't want to bother with the paperwork. But if the breeder could register the pups he would have. 

So you do not know the dog is purebred. But you also do not know if the dog has been bred closely to a sibling or parent. While it isn't the end of the world, if the pup seems healthy, a breeder wants to know what they are repeating in their lines 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 generations back. 

A dog that has no papers is a total wild-card. You don't know if the dog is closely related to another or not. You certainly have no clue what various dogs have contributed to the lines, and what genetic issues are more or less prevalent in the dogs. 

The only reason I think that might be a reason to breed a dog with papers was if you were herding sheep as your livelihood, and you have an awesome dog that has phenomenal talent in the area of herding. You had his sire or dam and have been breeding your own herding dogs for years, picking dogs for their talent and instinct rather than their looks, pedigree, and what have you. You are not concerned with the pureness of the breed, whether the dog is purbred or not, just the work the dog does, and the pups would be evaluated, some used for herding and any left over sold as pets.


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## cliffson1

The same applies to Law Enforcement.....they are primarily concerned with whether the dog will work.....most don't care about papers.


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## onyx'girl

> The only reason I think that might be a reason to breed a dog with papers was if you were herding sheep as your livelihood, and you have an awesome dog that has phenomenal talent in the area of herding. You had his sire or dam and have been breeding your own herding dogs for years, picking dogs for their talent and instinct rather than their looks, pedigree, and what have you. You are not concerned with the pureness of the breed, whether the dog is purbred or not, just the work the dog does, and the pups would be evaluated, some used for herding and any left over sold as pets.


This is what Onyx's "breeder" had in mind. She was breeding for the farm people(more cattle than sheep) but wasn't really thinking ahead for the leftovers. The leftovers need a job and are anxious to be busy. The off switch is there(maybe a dimmer, not an off), but so are some nerves and other issues that the breeder wasn't thinking about. IF I had the pedigree on Onyx, it would have made it a bit easier to understand her quirks. She is a dominant fear aggressor, that really loves to fight. But her dam was a great working herder, the pet market on Onyx's litter should have been warned!


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## Warrior09

First off I would like to say while im in the mourning of Hachi....... DONT BREED I cant tell from your post(s) that you are immature and you are doing solely because you "LOVE THE BREED" theres more to loving the breed. YOU have to make sure their both are OFA certified, DEF more experience in the breed than what you are getting right now. People dont want to buy puppies from breeder that don't squat about the breed. Your female isnt AKC Register (which doesn't mean crap) but still you should fix your dog and then fix your male. DONT DO IT! those future puppies you want will more than likely be ill tempered, sickly and etc bc you didnt take the time to make a better choice/decision and because of that they will either end up dead in a shelter and or just tossed between families and still eventually end up being in a shelter.


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## Lucky Paw

the dog makes the papers papers dont make dogs, i have seen awesome non akc german shepherds and dogs with no pedegree with a alternative akc registration getting 1st place at shows and some competitions. ETHICALLY you shouldnt breed a non akc papered dog but again if is a great dog and you check the hips and you have read well about the gsd temperament to make RESPONSIBLE JUDGEMENT leaving the ohh his a cute dog out of it there might be chances ... like me i have a **** of a dog and his parents are both akc but the papers to the dam were lost so never got me papers. and not because he is mine, but i got a **** of a dog


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## PatchonGSD

> but i got a **** of a dog.


LOL your dog is what? 10 months old?


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## Lucky Paw

PatchonGSD said:


> LOL your dog is what? 10 months old?


 11 but you have never seen my dog in person or seen him bite train or watched him around kids or a family or seen parents , so yea 10 months old and what, you dont know anything about my dog.


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## PatchonGSD

Lucky Paw said:


> 11 but you have never seen my dog in person or seen him bite train or watched him around kids or a family or seen parents , so yea 10 months old and what, you dont know anything about my dog.


You posted a link with photos of the parents, so yes I did see the parents. My dog is great with kids, too. Many dogs are. Just curious, who are you training with and what are you training in? Did you ever get your dogs hips and elbows done, at least?


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## Whiteshepherds

Lucky Paw said:


> .. like me i have a **** of a dog and his parents are both akc but the papers to the dam were lost so never got me papers. and not because he is mine, but i got a **** of a dog


Your breeder could have gotten a duplicate registration from the AKC, I'd ask them why they didn't. If they didn't want to do that the dam's registered name can be typed into their database and for $12 you can at least get it's pedigree.

Just saw on another post that you just bred your dog, was it the one you're talking about in this post?


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## selzer

You have a **** of a dog, ok. But what does your dog do? What does your dog do that is so vital to your existence that you need to go out of bounds when it comes to breeding?

I mean, maybe a dog is awesome at recognizing and alerting to seizures, or finding cancer, and their genes should be passed down to see if any of the offspring is as good. 

We ALL have awesome pets. And most of us concede that even thought they DO have papers, that isn't necessarily enough to use them for breeding. 

If a dog is eligible for AKC or SV, the breeder will register the dog if they are going to use them for breeding. If a dog used for breeding is not registered, then all those cutesy excuses, like "we lost the papers" are actually, more than likely, lies. People intending to breed their dogs do not lose the papers and if they do, they will contact the breeder and ask them to get them a duplicate certificate. 

What happens is that someone buys a BYB dog and is too cheap to pay an extra $50 or $100 to have the papers, because they aren't planning on breeding when they buy the pup. Or, someone buys a dog on a limited registration, which is sold with the intention that the dog not be bred. They often pay less for the limited registration, or the dog might have some type of issue that the breeder does not want to breed, and so gives a discount and a limited registration. The breeder who breeds a dog that has a limited registration, is one that I won't support with my money. I see it as underhanded.


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## PatchonGSD

Whiteshepherds said:


> Your breeder could have gotten a duplicate registration from the AKC, I'd ask them why they didn't. If they didn't want to do that the dam's registered name can be typed into their database and for $12 you can at least get it's pedigree.
> 
> Just saw on another post that you just bred your dog, was it the one you're talking about in this post?


Yes, this puppy is the one he just bred to a "imported" service dog."


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## Lucky Paw

selzer said:


> You have a **** of a dog, ok. But what does your dog do? What does your dog do that is so vital to your existence that you need to go out of bounds when it comes to breeding?
> 
> I mean, maybe a dog is awesome at recognizing and alerting to seizures, or finding cancer, and their genes should be passed down to see if any of the offspring is as good.
> 
> We ALL have awesome pets. And most of us concede that even thought they DO have papers, that isn't necessarily enough to use them for breeding.
> 
> If a dog is eligible for AKC or SV, the breeder will register the dog if they are going to use them for breeding. If a dog used for breeding is not registered, then all those cutesy excuses, like "we lost the papers" are actually, more than likely, lies. People intending to breed their dogs do not lose the papers and if they do, they will contact the breeder and ask them to get them a duplicate certificate.
> 
> What happens is that someone buys a BYB dog and is too cheap to pay an extra $50 or $100 to have the papers, because they aren't planning on breeding when they buy the pup. Or, someone buys a dog on a limited registration, which is sold with the intention that the dog not be bred. They often pay less for the limited registration, or the dog might have some type of issue that the breeder does not want to breed, and so gives a discount and a limited registration. The breeder who breeds a dog that has a limited registration, is one that I won't support with my money. I see it as underhanded.


he said he tried getting the papers again from the store where they purchased the mother from and the store closed out, and thats true because its from a local store. this guy isnt a byb he is actually very educated and has been breeding for several years and guarantees the dogs , his name is issac watts i believe and he is in plant city florida , ALL IGNORANT COMMENTS I WILL IGNORE I REALLY DONT KNOW YALL AND DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO PROOVE I CAN CARE LESS I LIVE A HAPPY LIFE AND IM NOT GETTING BANNED AGAIN .


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## Sunflowers

Ever heard of puppy mills? That is where stores get their dogs.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Sunflowers said:


> Ever heard of puppy mills? That is where stores get their dogs.


If you don't believe Sunflowers, read this:
Investigating Puppy Mills - Oprah.com


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## Lucky Paw

Sunflowers said:


> Ever heard of puppy mills? That is where stores get their dogs.


 private stores ??? arent they akc too . this discussion is about akc


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## selzer

Lucky Paw said:


> he said he tried getting the papers again from the store where they purchased the mother from and the store closed out, and thats true because its from a local store. this guy isnt a byb he is actually very educated and has been breeding for several years and guarantees the dogs , his name is issac watts i believe and he is in plant city florida , ALL IGNORANT COMMENTS I WILL IGNORE I REALLY DONT KNOW YALL AND DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO PROOVE I CAN CARE LESS I LIVE A HAPPY LIFE AND IM NOT GETTING BANNED AGAIN .


Well, here's the thing, the vast majority of puppies sold in stores are not AKC. They are generally CKC (Continental Kennel Club) or other registries. Decent breeders do not buy puppies from pet stores. Ever. Sorry, that is the truth. 

Pet stores are supplied by high volume puppy mills. That is the truth too. The dogs that produce those puppies live a hellish existence. Sad, but true. 

No breeder who cares about his puppies allows strangers to sell them to the first person with enough cash or credit in a store. It just does not happen. 

The reason this yayhoo did not provide papers for your dog is because he could not. He supports puppy mills.

This is not your dog's fault. Your dog is a lovely pet. Enjoy him. Love him.


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## selzer

Lucky Paw said:


> private stores ??? arent they akc too . this discussion is about akc


No. There are breeders, and there are stores that sell puppies. Stores that sell puppies need to order a pup of a certain breed to fill the spot of the pup that got sold today. They do this by using puppy-wholesalers. These people go around to puppy mills and buy dogs for $50 a pup or so, and gather them together, ship them in disgusting conditions, separate them for the various stores, and then ship them, usually dehydrated and sick to the end stores. 

Even small private pet stores -- not part of any chains, sell puppies that come out of puppy mills. That is ALL they sell. 

Good breeders do not allow their puppies to be sold by minimum wage workers to the first person with enough cash. Not ever.


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## Lucky Paw

selzer said:


> No. There are breeders, and there are stores that sell puppies. Stores that sell puppies need to order a pup of a certain breed to fill the spot of the pup that got sold today. They do this by using puppy-wholesalers. These people go around to puppy mills and buy dogs for $50 a pup or so, and gather them together, ship them in disgusting conditions, separate them for the various stores, and then ship them, usually dehydrated and sick to the end stores.
> 
> Even small private pet stores -- not part of any chains, sell puppies that come out of puppy mills. That is ALL they sell.
> 
> Good breeders do not allow their puppies to be sold by minimum wage workers to the first person with enough cash. Not ever.


with all your respect i dont thing this was the case .


CLICK HERE >>http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0874-show-me-your-black-tan-dogs-puppies.html 

look at post #33 and tell me if akc would make this dog any more or less . @ 11 months old this dog is way ahead of the game my friend physically and mentally ,i took some pics playing around with him but you can see this dog is in better shape then half of the dogs being studded out there .


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## onyx'girl

It isn't about 'AKC' as a pass to breed, it is about 'AKC' mapping the dogs pedigree, and the breeder knowing how best to match it with other dogs to bring out the best....proving you have the background of the lines to show health and temperament.
GSD's need a bit more careful planning to bring out the best...haven't you seen the fear biters, skittish afraid of their own shadow OCD GSD's?? Or the ones with so many health issues they are just a mess? AKC isn't a be all end all, but it does have a true history to the actual dog that is being bred. take it or leave it, at least you can actually see what the dog is from their genetic map.


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## msvette2u

Lucky remember the Petfinder link I sent you?
I'd encourage you to visit your shelters, get to know some of these dogs.

The German Shepherd, like many overbred dogs out there, is in bad shape, genetically speaking.
You should only be breeding the "best of the best", health wise and temperament wise.

We have an awesome dog, temperament wise. But his elbows are shot and he's barely over a year of age. He won't live beyond 3-4 yrs. at this rate. That's from people breeding without knowing the genetics behind the dogs they have.

It's critical you learn more about this and find out how to become a responsible breeder, and stop breeding dogs without history (titles/pedigrees) behind them. 
That's all I can say...and the best I can say it.

It is a free country. You can do whatever you want (other than break laws  )
But for the love of the breed, please be responsible with your dogs.


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## Lucky Paw

msvette2u said:


> Lucky remember the Petfinder link I sent you?
> I'd encourage you to visit your shelters, get to know some of these dogs.
> 
> The German Shepherd, like many overbred dogs out there, is in bad shape, genetically speaking.
> You should only be breeding the "best of the best", health wise and temperament wise.
> 
> We have an awesome dog, temperament wise. But his elbows are shot and he's barely over a year of age. He won't live beyond 3-4 yrs. at this rate. That's from people breeding without knowing the genetics behind the dogs they have.
> 
> It's critical you learn more about this and find out how to become a responsible breeder, and stop breeding dogs without history (titles/pedigrees) behind them.
> That's all I can say...and the best I can say it.
> 
> It is a free country. You can do whatever you want (other than break laws  )
> But for the love of the breed, please be responsible with your dogs.


i will miss


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## msvette2u

:thumbup:


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## selzer

Lucky Paw said:


> with all your respect i dont thing this was the case .
> 
> 
> CLICK HERE >>http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0874-show-me-your-black-tan-dogs-puppies.html
> 
> look at post #33 and tell me if akc would make this dog any more or less . @ 11 months old this dog is way ahead of the game my friend physically and mentally ,i took some pics playing around with him but you can see this dog is in better shape then half of the dogs being studded out there .


Your dog will not reach maturity until it is between 2 and 3 years old. You do not know what it will be until that point. Someone who knows the dogs behind their pup, might be confident about how the pup will turn out, but all you know is that the father is grossly over-sized and the breeder is too shady to have papers on either of them.


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## Lucky Paw

selzer said:


> Your dog will not reach maturity until it is between 2 and 3 years old. You do not know what it will be until that point. Someone who knows the dogs behind their pup, might be confident about how the pup will turn out, but all you know is that the father is grossly over-sized and the breeder is too shady to have papers on either of them.


ok.


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