# Pedigree Experts please chime in!



## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Can you guys and gals tell me what you think of these two breeding's and weigh in your opinions. It would be much appreciated.



*Irmus Galan Nalag* x *Ria Neresnícka dolina*


*Kutter vom Landesberg *x *Engie Japedo*


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

I don't know much about pedigrees but i do know that Irmus and my future pup are half brothers from the sire side


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## anawd (Oct 13, 2011)

A training friend has an Irmus x Engie puppy and he is EXTREMELY nice. He is still quite young but is carrying around a SchH3 dumbbell. He always has to have something in his mouth. He has a lot of food drive, as well, and is already barking for a rag. He seems like he will be a fairly compliant puppy. I'm expecting great things from him!

I've seen both Irmus and Engie in person and like both of them, however they look much different in person than the photos I've seen of them. I think they look much better in person. Engie is a gorgeous dog. I don't know anything about the bitch being bred to Irmus this time (haven't seen her).

This same friend bred his bitch to Kutter and the litter has been outstanding. They are still young also (I believe 10 weeks?), and he has three of them (keeping one for sure, possibly two, just waiting to find the right homes). One male is going to be incredibly strong. I'm anticipating him to be a more difficult dog, not as compliant, but extremely confident and full of drive. The bitch is a very nice, social dog, but turns on when needed. I think the other two pups that are left will be a lot like her in that aspect. 

So my suggestion would be, if you're looking for an "easier" dog to train, a more compliant dog, I'd go with the Irmus litter. If you're looking for a more serious dog, but one that may be more difficult, I'd go with the Kutter litter. 

Good luck! Difficult choice!


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks for the info!


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

We put our deposit down on the Irmus breeding. Now the waiting begins.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Little nugget....with Tyson and Task in the third generation Galag is built for power....with the litter being linebred on Cordon, you should get some swagger....lol


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Little nugget....with Tyson and Task in the third generation Galag is built for power....with the litter being linebred on Cordon, you should get some swagger....lol


Has a nice ring to it. Thanks Cliff!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Cliff - why do you like a linebreeding on Cordon??? I have talked to a couple of Czechs who recommend avoiding a linebreeding on Cordon??? My K's carry him once, through Gaston GN - same mother lines as Irmus...

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hi Lee, because the linebreeding is 5-5, so far enough away to sidestep some of the negatives that would arise from say a 3-3 breeding on Cordon. I have seen closer linebreedings on Cordon that have some extreme issues in nerve, aggression, and thresholds, similar to West dogs like Grief when bred too close. But I have also seen him in farther removed linebreedings in which the other elements balance these things out and you can get nice attitude. Hope this makes sense.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Also Lee, the dam side of Irmus is built for power and aggression. You are breeding Task to an O litter Danaru female. Odetta has Cordon as sire and her dam's grandsire is Cir Vrtoske, one of the great tough Czech dogs in work and breeding. Add Astor in as sire of Adele and somebody either really knew what they were doing or just a lucky Czech put together....lol.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Yes, Gaston is also from the same dam lines....interesting on Cordan....guess we will see....I have seen things pop up that are attributable to much further back in pedigrees than a 5-5...so I err on the side of caution!

Lee


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Hi Lee, because the linebreeding is 5-5, so far enough away to sidestep some of the negatives that would arise from say a 3-3 breeding on Cordon. I have seen closer linebreedings on Cordon that have some extreme issues in nerve, aggression, and thresholds, similar to West dogs like Grief when bred too close. But I have also seen him in farther removed linebreedings in which the other elements balance these things out and you can get nice attitude. Hope this makes sense.


What specific issues in the nerve, aggression, and thresholds are you seeing in the Cordon linebred dogs?


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

if you're looking for an "easier" dog to train, a more compliant dog, I'd go with the Irmus litter. If you're looking for a more serious dog, but one that may be more difficult, I'd go with the Kutter litter. 

How can you tell if a dog will be compliant or hard to train?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Lee, yes we certainly can have things pop up from further away linebreeding. But my comments on Cordon are in general, my comments about the breeding are based specifically. When I look at a pedigree, just like you, I take in consideration ALL the dogs in the pedigree that I know before deciding the impact that some of the more prominent dogs may have. This often changes my feelings about the negatives or positives of certain key dogs. Let me just say this, a 5-5 breeding with Cordon in which all the dogs in the pedigree were Czech would give me more concern than the pedigree posted. This may be more the perspective of some Czech breeders, but one reason I am advocate of mixing strong lines is to be able to have greater flexibilty in some dogs and some linebreedings.
@ 4thedawgs....your question is difficult to answer without seeing the other dogs in a linebred Cordon litter. The closeness of the linebreeding, the quality of the other dogs in litter in terms of nerve strength and drives, the recombination of pedigrees of say a 3-3 or 5-5 linebreeding, make it unfair to give all the credit or blame to Cordon. This is very difficult to explain (and believe for some people), as to how we come to findings about a pedigree without seeing the dogs involved. So anything I say can be refuted with the same linebreeding on Cordon and different other dogs in the pedigree, but when I look at a specific pedigree, then I cam make the adjustments in my head, and get a feel for the general nature of the litter. Cordon could produce some strong aggression and good nerve with the right dogs....his thresholds could vary depending on the dogs he was bred to. When he was linebred you had to be careful and good balance in the pedigree and no weak nerved dogs genetically.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Hi Lee, because the linebreeding is 5-5, so far enough away to sidestep some of the negatives that would arise from say a 3-3 breeding on Cordon. I have seen closer linebreedings on Cordon that have some extreme issues in nerve, aggression, and thresholds, similar to West dogs like Grief when bred too close. But I have also seen him in farther removed linebreedings in which the other elements balance these things out and you can get nice attitude. Hope this makes sense.


Hmmm - so you just discount the combo of Yoshey and Tyson via Hokey (who I do like alot!!!) with a line breeding on Cordan?? For some people, this kind of combo may be wonderful...for a novice or a family dog?????? Of course, the pups can vary within a litter, and hopefully the breeder can identify individuals who are more suitable for specific needs prior to letting pups go....

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee the original OP asked about what I thought about pedigree.....I said I thought power, strength and swagger. I STILL think that and never said my opinion on first time family, novice, sport, work, whatever. Of course I saw Hokey and others in pedigree, but the overall pedigree should be a very strong pedigree.IMO.....smile!


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Lee, are you suggesting that if Mike said he is confident that we can find a puppy to match our needs in this breeding that he isn't being truthful or is misinformed?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Masi is 4-4 on Cordon, she's a beast, but I love her)


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Bummed. Found out today from Mike that the breeding between Irmus and Ria didn't take


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

IllinoisGSD said:


> Lee, are you suggesting that if Mike said he is confident that we can find a puppy to match our needs in this breeding that he isn't being truthful or is misinformed?



NO!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!! If you remember ***I*** am the one (or at least ONE OF) that sent you to Mike in the first place....!!!!

In every litter, there are variable in each pup!!! Pedigrees are what is POSSIBLE/PROBABLE to happen in a litter - what we hope for! In every litter there are individuals who pick up slightly different characteristics....it is the breeders job to evaluate the individual pups and match them to the buyer's needs.....if the breeder has had other litters of either or both parents, he has a leg up on what he can expect and that is the next level up on evaluating a breeding after the pedigree.

Sorry if a theoretical question caused you concern!!! I am absolutely NOT suggesting anything of the sort. I have seen many many dogs who I like alot in person that have pedigrees that I am not so crazy about (ie - as in having Crok LOL LOL) in theory... a pedigree is a blueprint that you try to build your ideal breeding from.

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

could not edit and hit send too quickly!

In every litter, there are variable in each pup!!! Pedigrees are what is POSSIBLE/PROBABLE to happen in a litter - what we hope for! In every litter there are individuals who pick up slightly different characteristics....it is the breeders job to evaluate the individual pups and match them to the buyer's needs.....if the breeder has had other litters of either or both parents, he has a leg up on what he can expect and that is the next level up on evaluating a breeding after the pedigree. As Mike has had litters from both parents previously, he should have an excellent handle on what to expect, and if he says he should have something to suit you, then you can be confident that he has the experience and knowledge to make that choice.

Lee


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> could not edit and hit send too quickly!
> 
> In every litter, there are variable in each pup!!! Pedigrees are what is POSSIBLE/PROBABLE to happen in a litter - what we hope for! In every litter there are individuals who pick up slightly different characteristics....it is the breeders job to evaluate the individual pups and match them to the buyer's needs.....if the breeder has had other litters of either or both parents, he has a leg up on what he can expect and that is the next level up on evaluating a breeding after the pedigree. As Mike has had litters from both parents previously, he should have an excellent handle on what to expect, and if he says he should have something to suit you, then you can be confident that he has the experience and knowledge to make that choice.
> 
> Lee



Lee, sorry for misinterpreting your previous reply. Sometimes its easy to take something the wrong way on the internet. Your recent response makes perfect sense, thank you for that. All is for naught tho, Irmus and Ria litter didn't take. We're going to wait to see what comes from Kutter's litter and hope he has a puppy from Kutter and Enji that would be a good match for us. The training director at the Sch club that I'm looking into has a Kutter puppy that couldn't be happier. We're hoping for the best!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

ahhh - I LOVE Kutter!!!!!!!!!!! Would have loved to have a Csabre litter from him!

Lee


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Glad you think highly of Kutter  Hoping that there is a puppy that matches what we're looking for from this litter or it will be back to the drawing board again


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Well, if I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all. Just spoke with Mike and looks no pups from Kutter either. Back to the drawing board it seems


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh no! Sorry to hear that.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Yikes, I am so sorry to hear that. I know your upset about it all. Do you have any other prospects that you like just as much?


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> Yikes, I am so sorry to hear that. I know your upset about it all. Do you have any other prospects that you like just as much?


Nope, I stopped looking when I decided on these two litters. I like 
Nate Harves dog Struka, just don't know if he has any puppies due anytime soon. Open to suggestions thats for sure.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Oh no! Darn! Darn! Darn!


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

JanaeUlva said:


> Oh no! Darn! Darn! Darn!


I know! Puppies were supposed to be born today. I wasn't expecting the call I got. Not twice in the last month!


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