# Getting bullied at the dog park



## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Hi guys,

It's been a while since I've posted here. Sitka is 10 months old now and doing great! He loves long hikes, playing with other pups 1 on 1, and training in the park. He can sit, lie down, stay, shake a paw, dance, kiss, heel, be gentle, and leave it.

Sitka's favorite thing in the world is playing, so if I can't bring him to a park to play fetch, or go for a long hike, I've brought him to the dog park. (I know, dog parks are evil... we're not going anymore).

Sitka is a big boy (70+ lbs) and very friendly! He's polite with the other dogs, not jumping, or over excited. He always listens if they tell him off. But, it seems, every time we go to the dog park he gets ganged up on and bullied by one or more of the dogs. Two or three dogs will be playing, and Sitka comes into the mix and they bark and chase him.

Today a Shepsky chased him around the park. I was calling Sitka because he was running with his tail between his legs, but the other dogs owner was just laughing. The other dog eventually caught Sitka by biting his hind end and Sitka yelped. I ran to Sitka and was petting him, when the other dog's owner came over, grabbed Sitka's collar, and started calling his dog to come over. Obviously I told the guy off, but he just kept laughing. We were walking towards the exit and the dog was chasing Sitka again, and nipped him again. Like I said, we're not going to dog parks anymore.

But this wasn't an isolated incident. Sitka often seems to get bullied/ganged up on by other dogs, regardless of their size. The breeder said he was the smallest male of the litter, and spent a lot of time on her and her daughter's laps because the other males would gang up on him and pin him down. 

My question is, why? Why do you think some dogs are targets for other dogs? Sitka loves playing with dogs, and I wouldn't call him shy or fearful, but I'm afraid if this keeps happening he will become reactive to it.

Here is a recent picture; I'm not sure if appearance makes a difference to dog behaviour, but I've heard dogs can be more reactive to dogs with dark/hidden features.


Also... Why can't I rotate the photo? Its driving me crazy!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

So why are you going back to dog parks, only to have your dog bullied? Stop going!


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> So why are you going back to dog parks, only to have your dog bullied? Stop going!



I'm not... I said twice that we're not going back...

I'm interested in the animal psychology/behaviour around why Sitka is getting bullied; especially if I can prevent it outside of the dog park.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

" But, it seems, every time we go to the dog park he gets ganged up on and bullied by one or more of the dogs. Two or three dogs will be playing, and Sitka comes into the mix and they bark and chase him.

Today a Shepsky chased him around the park. I was calling Sitka because he was running with his tail between his legs, but the other dogs owner was just laughing. The other dog eventually caught Sitka by biting his hind end and Sitka yelped. I ran to Sitka and was petting him, when the other dog's owner came over, grabbed Sitka's collar, and started calling his dog to come over. Obviously I told the guy off, but he just kept laughing. We were walking towards the exit and the dog was chasing Sitka again, and nipped him again. Like I said, we're not going to dog parks anymore."
I am sorry, reading this didn't make it very clear if this was in the way past or not. I thought you had posted this in the past as well. So please disregard my previous message.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

No problem. I understand, and maybe I shouldn't have gone back at all.

I've been to the same dog park maybe 4 times in the past 2 months. The first two times Sitka found one dog and was able to play with it. He was still barked at and chased by or 'ganged up on' by other dogs (not in a playful manner), but he seemed to have fun when he found one dog to play with, away from the others. 

The third time the park was nearly empty and he had a great time playing with one dog. Another dog showed up and was instantly "dominant" over Sitka. I'm not sure of the correct wording. I don't want to say aggressive because there was no snarling or growling, but the other dog would run over to Sitka, and Sitka would essentially curl into a ball on the ground, and the dog would stand over him, both dogs completely still, until the owner called it away. I'm a new dog owner, and thought maybe this was part of the dominant/submissive pack behaviour I read about in pop-culture. The other dog was older and bigger, both dogs are in-tact males. I thought maybe it was okay for Sitka to learn his place in the pack. Regardless, it made me uncomfortable and we left quickly.

The last time was the story I recounted in my first post, and obviously what has made me realize dog parks are not good for Sitka.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Here's something to consider:Sitka,you,your family are pack#1.When Sitka goes to the dog park he has lost his #1 pack and has to integrate himself into pack#2.And on top of that, pack #2 is a new group every time.So maybe he's showing this new pack subtle signs of hesitancy having lost the support of his family temporarily.Just speculating on my part....I think you made the right decision to not return.Maybe you can find him one dog buddy to play with sometimes.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> Here's something to consider:Sitka,you,your family are pack#1.When Sitka goes to the dog park he has lost his #1 pack and has to integrate himself into pack#2.And on top of that, pack #2 is a new group every time.So maybe he's showing this new pack subtle signs of hesitancy having lost the support of his family temporarily.Just speculating on my part....I think you made the right decision to not return.Maybe you can find him one dog buddy to play with sometimes.


I like the language you use "signs of hesitancy" and "lost the support".. I think you're right. I am the whole pack.. It's just Sitka and I. 

What can I do to build support on my part, so that Sitka still feels confident?

He has a 2 dog buddies to play with one on one, and those times are definitely harnessed, supported, and encouraged. Unfortunately, these times are only once a month at best
I'm working on building my relationship with him, but also want to make sure he has time to run with dogs and 'play free'.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I would forget about him needing to play with other dogs. Sure he has fun when things are going good. But the other times aren't worth it. Make yourself the thing that brings him the most pleasure. If he has two dogs he can play with monthly fine but forget the rest of dogs. He's essentially a child being bullied by an adult when grown dogs dominate and attack him. He's not gonna defend himself or learn to be confident with those things going on. Plus it sounds like some real clueless a******* bring their dogs to that park. The why isn't as important as the what if I keep exposing him to this kind of thing. It's good you're not going back. Eventually he will grow up mentally and you want him to disregard or ignore other dogs not instantly Go into defense attack mode when he sees them.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Cd is right.Another thing that there are many posts about is dogs that love to meet and greet begin lunging on their leashes and barking to get to other dogs.It's really better in the long run to stick to a couple of dog buddies and ignore the rest.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I hate to provide the alternate argument (kidding, I love to actually) but your dog needs to prevail simetimes...if you keep protecing him, he'll always need that. Stop micromanaging his intreractions with other dogs...in the end, no matter how those go, he'll be better off for it. Let him decide when enough is enough. Not you! We tend to think about things on a human level, but dogs don't think like that. 

I take my pup to a local dog park almost daily, and she's had to fight her way out of several conflicts all on her own....I never get involved unless one or the other dog is losing too much blood. LOL! Which has never happened! My pup can now look at a dog and tell, should I play with him, or not. And we never have negative experiences at the dog park...even with overly aggressive dogs, because my dog has learned to manage them...

I would advise letting your boy protect himself sometimes...and again, sure I'll get a lot of contrary advice here...just letting you know what's worked for me CONSISTENTLY! Wish you all the best!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just the other day my pup was getting her ass kicked by a couple of huskies. One got her by the neck, and the other would pin her down by laying on top of her. I watched, saying nothing, but hopi g she would find - for herself' how to win! Given time she did fight her way out...and that's a good thing no! 

Give your dog some space to become what she is!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SitkatheGSD said:


> I'm interested in the animal psychology/behaviour around why Sitka is getting bullied; especially if I can prevent it outside of the dog park.


I have a dog that most other dogs react violently to. And I'm sorry but I have no idea why. 
All I know is that even a dog who's owner runs a doggy daycare, fosters and walks dogs went ballistic on her.
After a number of attacks and innumerable close calls, I simply don't let her interact with other dogs. I spent years working on her reactivity, not jeopardizing all that work. 
I hope you get the answers you are seeking, but don't put your dog at risk to get them.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. I've seen dogs that got bullied by other dogs, and it's IMO always attributable to the owners. Let your dog get mauled a bit and recover from it naturally, and the problem goes away...or you can protect him or her their whole life and be worried...it's all up to you!


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> I hate to provide the alternate argument (kidding, I love to actually) but your dog needs to prevail simetimes...if you keep protecing him, he'll always need that. Stop micromanaging his intreractions with other dogs...in the end, no matter how those go, he'll be better off for it. Let him decide when enough is enough. Not you! We tend to think about things on a human level, but dogs don't think like that.
> 
> I take my pup to a local dog park almost daily, and she's had to fight her way out of several conflicts all on her own....I never get involved unless one or the other dog is losing too much blood. LOL! Which has never happened! My pup can now look at a dog and tell, should I play with him, or not. And we never have negative experiences at the dog park...even with overly aggressive dogs, because my dog has learned to manage them...
> 
> I would advise letting your boy protect himself sometimes...and again, sure I'll get a lot of contrary advice here...just letting you know what's worked for me CONSISTENTLY! Wish you all the best!


Not all dogs are the same and this is not good advice for most dogs. This is going to make the dog more fearful or even aggressive toward dogs in the long run. Throwing the dog out to fend for itself does not and will not strengthen the bond between dog and handler. It may work for some dogs, but not most. if kona gets bullied I step in every time and stop it. She knows I have her back. If she was getting bullied by multiple dogs how is she gonna “fight” them all off?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

She might surprise you if you let her! Dogs do not tend to hurt each other without reason. That being said, dog parks are a good place to experience unexpected dog aggression, so just stay away and keep you pup safe...


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I hate to provide the alternate argument (kidding, I love to actually) but your dog needs to prevail simetimes...if you keep protecing him, he'll always need that. Stop micromanaging his intreractions with other dogs...in the end, no matter how those go, he'll be better off for it. Let him decide when enough is enough. Not you! We tend to think about things on a human level, but dogs don't think like that.
> 
> I take my pup to a local dog park almost daily, and she's had to fight her way out of several conflicts all on her own....I never get involved unless one or the other dog is losing too much blood. LOL! Which has never happened! My pup can now look at a dog and tell, should I play with him, or not. And we never have negative experiences at the dog park...even with overly aggressive dogs, because my dog has learned to manage them...
> 
> I would advise letting your boy protect himself sometimes...and again, sure I'll get a lot of contrary advice here...just letting you know what's worked for me CONSISTENTLY! Wish you all the best!


I use this philosophy within my own dogs play. Strange dogs, my dogs don't really care for other dogs so I just don't do the play and greet thing. During training and trials they have to share the field with other dogs so I don't want them thinking that every dog is a potential playmate anyway. 
How would you describe your girls overall confidence and demeanor. I almost guarantee that if I allowed that behavior with with a strange dog and my older mix male or my female GSD it would be a full blown fight. My young male GSD Idk. He has moments where he is submissive and moments where he is anything but.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

SitkatheGSD said:


> My question is, why? Why do you think some dogs are targets for other dogs? Sitka loves playing with dogs, and I wouldn't call him shy or fearful, but I'm afraid if this keeps happening he will become reactive to it.


They're bullying him because he's anxious/nervous about being there. Dogs that like to bully will test the waters with all the other dogs in the park, and once they find a "weak link" (the one who submits excessively or runs away cowering), they'll pester, mount, chase, and nip the weaker dog.



tim_s_adams said:


> I hate to provide the alternate argument (kidding, I love to actually) but your dog needs to prevail simetimes...if you keep protecing him, he'll always need that. Stop micromanaging his intreractions with other dogs...in the end, no matter how those go, he'll be better off for it. Let him decide when enough is enough. Not you! We tend to think about things on a human level, but dogs don't think like that.
> 
> I take my pup to a local dog park almost daily, and she's had to fight her way out of several conflicts all on her own....I never get involved unless one or the other dog is losing too much blood. LOL! Which has never happened! My pup can now look at a dog and tell, should I play with him, or not. And we never have negative experiences at the dog park...even with overly aggressive dogs, because my dog has learned to manage them...
> 
> I would advise letting your boy protect himself sometimes...and again, sure I'll get a lot of contrary advice here...just letting you know what's worked for me CONSISTENTLY! Wish you all the best!


Getting into a good, solid scuffle is also what taught Jack how to handle the bullies. He won that scuffle and the bully he bested ended up wrestling with him non-aggressively. But that's all it took. Jack just needed to learn that he could, in fact, handle a bully no problem. Now when he meets a more aggressive dog, he'll test to see if they want to play or wrestle, and if they don't, growl, and stand tall and still, he'll whimper at them with his head lowered a little in an attempt to encourage them to relax and play--as well as show that he's not there to cause trouble. It's pretty funny, but he takes their growls in stride. So he's learned not only how to beat the bully, but also how to appease more dominant dogs and avoid becoming the bully. That doesn't mean other dogs don't sometimes test him to see what he's going to do. It's just that now when he says "No" or "Shove off" he means it and they know it.

It's also helped tremendously with the annoying neighbor dogs who like to bark at him. Yesterday, he finally had the opportunity to tell the dogs off very loudly once they chased him. The other dog cowered, submitted, and everyone went their separate ways. I don't think the neighbor dogs will chase or pester Jack again.


But OP, just like @tim_s_adams, this is what specifically worked for my dog. It's not a guarantee that it'll work for yours. I just have a philosophy of letting dogs be dogs so long as no one gets injured.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

It’s risky to try. I take kona to the dog beach and she is a very submissive female but it has definitely gave her a ton of confidence with other dogs, but some times I do have to step in when irresponsible dog owners won’t get their dogs off kona. She tends to always submit to older confident dogs, but she sometimes does stand tall and go over dogs heads, usually only Bull dogs though.


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## CasanovaBlues (Aug 3, 2017)

Just figured I would add my two cents. I take my boy to the dog park pretty much every day, and he's a big boy now- about seventy pounds at eight months. For a long time he was very similar to your dog; submissive and scared, especially when ganged up on. I found what worked best with him was letting him know that, if he tells me he's had enough, I'll step in and take care of things. Your dog is still a puppy, which is part of why the other dogs know he's an easier target to bully. And if he feels unmoored from you, they can tell that very easily. I'm not saying you aren't taking care of your dog! It's just that he probably doesn't have a way to reliably show you when he's getting overwhelmed. When I started taking Casanova as a four month old, I tried to make absolutely certain that every time something scared him, he came to me. Any time he was ganged up on by the older dogs or yelled at by the decrepit, annoyed senior pups, I made sure he came to me so he felt like he had backup. If he feels like he can't get to me in time and the situation is a little more immediately scary (a dog's knocked him over and is holding him down) he starts crying to tell me that he's had enough and I come and intervene. A human changes the whole dynamic of how dogs interact, and so part of why your dog likely is picked on is if he doesn't know to come to you for help. I certainly agree that dogs need to take care of themselves, but he'll grow into that, and it's only appropriate for certain situations. Like if he's being humped, he should learn how to tell the other dogs "no". When it comes to being chased and nipped, as he matures he'll gain more respect simply due to age, and if he knows that when he's done playing the play stops, his confidence will grow quickly. Since you've said you aren't taking him back to the dog park I guess this doesn't matter quite as much, but being a reliable fallback for your dog is always a good thing. Hope this helped answer your question!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

So.... is the OP's puppy dog reactive yet?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Letting them work it out only works for sane dogs with sane owners. But I choose to protect her and not allow any of this bullying. It is my job to protect her. I have seen my teacher dog the same when we were out and about and a bully came around. he wold leave them behind and step in front of them, facing the bully head on. That was all it took, no fights. This was years ago and I would never allow this again, I guess we have been lucky that nothing serious ever happened.
Currently the dynamics in our community are awful; the feel-good-positive-only-mentality along with aggressive dogs cranked out of a few shelters who import them from out of state. It is one the reasons I retired from pet dog training earlier that planned.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Thanks for all the input.

I definitely agree with everyone saying he is getting picked on because he gives off a nervous vibe and is a puppy. He is not small, but he doesn't seem to have a dominant bone in his body... yet. 

I'll point out, he has never been in an actual dog fight. 

I won't be letting him 'tough it out' with the other dogs. Yes, dogs speak their own language that I don't understand, but I am here to be his protector. He is still a puppy, and I don't want him getting bullied. I have let interactions with other dogs go for a while, and he does eventually tell them off. But more often then not, it results in Sitka crying/yelping, and running to me. He comes to me when he is afraid, and stands between my legs.

I can already see Sitka becoming reactive and defensive; when he sees another dog while on leash, even across the street, he goes straight into defense mode barking and lunging. I'm working on this leash frustration.

How can I build his confidence so that he's not such a target? Or is it only time?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Even in the situation I mentioned with the two huskies it was play and my pup was not distressed. Had she been it COULD have gotten ugly very quickly, so I watched them closely and would have intervened immediately if need be. But I was pleased that she was able to handle it herself, without fighting. I have also had to step in on several occasions, but I don't unless my puppy is yelping or a fight is inevitable, so you do have to be watchful and be able to read dogs well. It isn't just throwing her out to fend for herself!

The thing is, if you take a submissive or fearful puppy to a dog park and jump in every time she gets stressed a bit, then never go back, what have you taught her? That strange dogs ARE scary and dangerous. It's much worse, IMO, than just keeping your dog away from all other dogs. But in my view that's not an option, because a dog can't learn to be confident with other dogs from you. They have to experience it, and it does build confidence. 



> How would you describe your girls overall confidence and demeanor. I almost guarantee that if I allowed that behavior with with a strange dog and my older mix male or my female GSD it would be a full blown fight.


She's very confident with other dogs now, not at all aggressive, but she won't back down either. She's been in a couple brief fights with other dogs, always initiated by them - apparently she doesn't like being bitten. And that, as @Kyrielle mentioned, definitely gave her even more confidence with bully dogs. 

And I did not take her to a dog park until she was 6 months old, at least not in the main section, so that she had all of her shots and a little better coordination and some size. Of course she still initially spent much of her time getting bowled over and running back to get under a picnic table to escape boisterous older dogs, but she learned from that too. As a young puppy she was all about wrestling and very boisterous play, now that she's an older puppy she'd rather play fetch or just run, so there's much less rough play. She'll maintain a sit-stay or a down-stay inside the dog park even when other dogs try to engage her to play, until released. And she has no problem ignoring other dogs at petsmart or home depot; though occasionally she'll get bothered by other dogs when we're out walking, it's selective, and she's pretty good about knocking it off when told. So, all in all, the dog park interaction has been very good for my puppy. But I do agree that it's not for everyone.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

How can I build his confidence so that he's not such a target? Or is it only time?

Begin setting her up for successful interactions with known dog buddies.She's apparently already started reacting towards other dogs while on leash because of one of two reasons;frustrated and wants to greet or trying to keep yet another potential bully away from her.She will gain confidence when she stops anticipating failure.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Thanks for all the input.
> 
> I definitely agree with everyone saying he is getting picked on because he gives off a nervous vibe and is a puppy. He is not small, but he doesn't seem to have a dominant bone in his body... yet.
> 
> ...


So that answers my question.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I would advise NOT taking your dog back to the dog park....especially since he is already becoming very reactive.

By going back you are setting him up for failure.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

DOg reactivity is not an easy thing to undo and takes a lot of work. You've got to teach a rock solid Look at Me command. Then, when another dog is coming, even before he sees the dog, say Look at Me and reward. You want him to learn to ignore other dogs and be aloof with other dogs. Once he's barking and lunging at other dog it is too late. We want to head this behavior off at the pass.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Whether at a dog park or a friendly play date with a trusted dog (though it's a mystery to me how people can determine that), IMHO you have got to let your puppy defend himself sometimes, it builds confidence. If or when your puppy is crying or hiding behind you, sure help him out and shoo the other dog away! But if you want him to be less of a target you have to let him learn that he can also defend himself. He will, and you'll quickly see a change in his demeanor.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Well doesn't this depend on the temperament of the dog? Some are with solid nerve. Others are more shy and timid natured. I would not put a weak and timid nerved dog out in a dog park to 'figure it out on their own'. It will make dog reactivity worse. Maybe your dogs are more solid.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Well doesn't this depend on the temperament of the dog? Some are with solid nerve. Others are more shy and timid natured. I would not put a weak and timid nerved dog out in a dog park to 'figure it out on their own'. It will make dog reactivity worse. Maybe your dogs are more solid.


IMO the dog reactivity Sitka is showing is fear based, precisely because he was allowed to interact with strange dogs and get bullied, but not allowed to defend himself and win. Obviously your approach with any dog has to be tempered to the nerves of that dog. I believe most all dogs can benefit from being stressed a little and working through that. But again, how much stress a dog can handle depends on the dog. As with anything related to your own dog, you have to learn to read them. Stressing a dog is good for them, distressing a dog is generally never good for them.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Whether at a dog park or a friendly play date with a trusted dog (though it's a mystery to me how people can determine that), IMHO you have got to let your puppy defend himself sometimes, it builds confidence. If or when your puppy is crying or hiding behind you, sure help him out and shoo the other dog away! But if you want him to be less of a target you have to let him learn that he can also defend himself. He will, and you'll quickly see a change in his demeanor.


In bite sports it is always cautioned not to work a young dog in defense drive because it can ruin a good dog and create avoidance or reactivity issues - the exact opposite of confidence. 

Wouldn't a young dog defending himself against other dogs be using the same drive as when defending himself against a helper? Seems to me that if a young dog shouldn't be put into defensive drive against a human opponent, it shouldn't have to face that stress with a canine one either. 

This just seems like an all around bad idea and out right dangerous advice. 

I have seen plenty of dogs that develop life long reactivity issues due to bad experiences as a pup. 

And then of course we have to take into account genetics. A well bred puppy with sound genetics may be a target for a short time due to it's immaturity, but barring any traumatic events it will mature into a sound, confident dog regardless of how many other dogs it beat up on the play ground. A genetically weak dog will always be so and will probably a life long target, nothing you can do to raise that dog's confidence. Demanding that it defend itself will just cause undue stress and lead to behavior problems.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> In bite sports it is always cautioned not to work a young dog in defense drive because it can ruin a good dog and create avoidance or reactivity issues - the exact opposite of confidence.
> 
> Wouldn't a young dog defending himself against other dogs be using the same drive as when defending himself against a helper? Seems to me that if a young dog shouldn't be put into defensive drive against a human opponent, it shouldn't have to face that stress with a canine one either.
> 
> ...


I don't trial, but my understanding of the advice not to push a young dog into defense too young is not that working in defence is bad per se, it's pushing the pup too hard at too young an age risks breaking his confidence, and that is what "ruins" them and creates the reactivity or avoidance you're referring to. Lots of folks on here do work their dogs in these sports though, so maybe they can speak to that better than I can. I do stand by what I said though, stress can be very good for a dog, distress not. If you can't tell the difference, err on the side of caution!


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

As always, thank you everyone.

I really appreciate this forum for hosting so many different opinions, from differing backgrounds, in a usually respectful manner.

I will not be going to dog parks. I will continue to set Sitka up with playdates with 2 dogs I know he plays well with - a 7 month old shepherd/dane female, and an 9 month old Texas Heeler (the only dog Sitka has ever almost dominated  lol)

As for dog reactivity and leash aggression. I have tried many different techniques. I've used flat collars, front and rear clip harnesses, and a halti; next on the list to try is the prong collar, if need be. I've tried walking the other direction, correcting Sitka with a sharp 'no' and pull on the leash, using the 'claw' grip on Sitka's neck and saying no, simply ignoring Sitka's reaction. The group obedience class we enrolled in, gave the advice to just keep forcing him to walk around and near other dogs; the idea of exposure leading to eventual extinction...In retrospect, I think this class was poorly done and I'd have been better enrolling him in 1 on 1 training.

The last three days I have repeated the 'look at me' command from the second we see the other dog, non-stop treating Sitka with all his favorites. I have made a very conscious effort to not tighten the leash and keep a very calm demeanour. And for these three days he hasn't barked at the other dogs!! Not to say he has't reacted, he is still moving his start between me and the dog, and definitely on high alert, but at least he isn't lunging at the chihuahua a 1/2 block away.

I will be enrolling him into one on one training with a highly qualified trainer when my budget permits.


In the meantime, what other games or exercises are recommended for building confidence? We play fetch while training with plenty of praise, go for walks in the neighborhood while training, go for long hikes in new environments where Stika can have free, unleashed adventure.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> IMO the dog reactivity Sitka is showing is fear based, precisely because he was allowed to interact with strange dogs and get bullied, but not allowed to defend himself and win. Obviously your approach with any dog has to be tempered to the nerves of that dog. I believe most all dogs can benefit from being stressed a little and working through that. But again, how much stress a dog can handle depends on the dog. As with anything related to your own dog, you have to learn to read them. Stressing a dog is good for them, distressing a dog is generally never good for them.


I have definitely tried not to intercept most of his interactions. When I have interruppted, its because Sitka is either a) squished against a fence/tree with more than one dog barking at him, or b) he's yelping. You've repeated that stress is okay for dogs but distress isn't. Sitka is quite obviously getting distressed when being bullied by these dogs time and time again. 

I want to recognize the features in Sitka that make him a target, and build his confidence before repeating these negative experiences. 

I suppose, I have tried your method, but its getting the same result: Sitka keeps getting bullied and not standing up for himself in groups of dogs, so I need to find a new tactic.

Thanks for your input though. It sounds like you've done a good job with your girl.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't trial, but my understanding of the advice not to push a young dog into defense too young is not that working in defence is bad per se, it's pushing the pup too hard at too young an age risks breaking his confidence, and that is what "ruins" them and creates the reactivity or avoidance you're referring to.


I think maybe you should take some time to learn about defense drives in dogs before encouraging people to allow their puppies to defend themselves...



> The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour. Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, "life" experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies).


Schutzhund Village

Look at ALL of those factors that have to be taken into consideration before letting a dog get into defensive drive safely. 



> Lots of folks on here do work their dogs in these sports though, so maybe they can speak to that better than I can. *I do stand by what I said though, stress can be very good for a dog, distress not.* If you can't tell the difference, err on the side of caution!


But we aren't even talking about DOGS. We are talking about _puppies_. Immature animals that haven't developed fully into their drives. Putting them into an uncontrolled situation that can get out of hand very quickly. 

Humans putting pups / young dogs into defense for sport work is inadvisable, and that is with the people reading the dog and specifically not trying to push it too hard... But with other dogs? YOU CAN'T CONTROL THEM!

If you leave your pup to defend itself in the free for all that is the dog park - how do you keep the dog park bullies from "pushing too hard at too young of an age"? 

"Oh hi there Mr. Husky, can you please not push my puppy too hard so you don't break his confidence?" Yeah. Not gonna work. 

Rough play can escalate to a full out fight in a matter of SECONDS. Especially in dog park environments. And guess what? By the time that the humans can see that they need to intervene - it is already too late. The impression of the situation has already been made on the pup. 

There is absolutely NO NEED to make a puppy defend itself so it gains confidence. Dogs are not introspective. They don't sit there and think "Oh hey I don't like getting beat up. I need to learn to stick up for myself". The confidence a dog has is largely genetic and hormonal driven. They either have it at birth or they don't. Not doing anything and letting the puppy mature without being put under uncontrollable stress will result in a confident dog at maturity - if they were destined to be one in their genetic blue print. However, putting a pup into situations where it needs to defend itself before it is mature enough to do so - it's putting that blueprint through the shredder. 

Get a good pup. Do nothing with it regarding defense and you have a good dog. Get a good pup and be an idiot about pushing it's defensive boundaries and you get a mess of a dog with psych problems. < I've seen that scenario play out time and time again. By people who willing push their dogs into defense and by people who accidentally let stuff happen.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> tim_s_adams said:
> 
> 
> > I don't trial, but my understanding of the advice not to push a young dog into defense too young is not that working in defence is bad per se, it's pushing the pup too hard at too young an age risks breaking his confidence, and that is what "ruins" them and creates the reactivity or avoidance you're referring to.
> ...


I agree with everything here! Op listen to this


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Thanks. I will definitely take this advice and NOT put Sitka in environments where he needs to go into defense mode. That's exactly what I'm training him not to do. I want him to be indifferent to dogs 90% of the time, and open to safe fair play in the appropriate 10% of the time remaining.

I often hear/read of the genetic basis for courage - weak nerved or solid. I really, really don't think Sitka is weak nerved. I'm very new to all of this, but as I've read on here and elsewhere, Sitka does not seem to be weak nerved. He stayed at the breeder's until 4 months old, so he was understandable sheltered an nervous when I brought him to the big bad city. But since then he has traveled all over the country, only showing fear to 2 things: bully dogs in dog parks, and baths at the groomers.

His dad was a 90lb solid black working line, who challenged a black bear in the woods of Vancouver Island and came back with a mouth full of fur. His mom was a 55lb 1/2 working line, 1/2 show line. As far as I know she never met a black bear.

I met only 1 of Sitka's littermates who was an extremely hyper active, boisterous male. He literally sat on Sitka when Sitka laid on his back for a belly rub upon meeting me. As I said, the other 4 or 5 males in the litter would all pick on Sitka as a baby, and I wonder if that's part of where his fearfulness comes from.

Eventually, I'd like to put Sitka in Shutzhund training, but not until he's built up some more confidence.

My original question, about why Sitka was being targeted has been answer: he comes across as nervous and is an easy target. Like the friendly shy kid who keeps getting bullied because he's just too darn friendly. Now, how do we instill confidence in that little shy kid? How do I make stop Sitka from being the victim, and so preventing the need for defensiveness.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Thanks. I will definitely take this advice and NOT put Sitka in environments where he needs to go into defense mode. That's exactly what I'm training him not to do. I want him to be indifferent to dogs 90% of the time, and open to safe fair play in the appropriate 10% of the time remaining.
> 
> I often hear/read of the genetic basis for courage - weak nerved or solid. I really, really don't think Sitka is weak nerved. I'm very new to all of this, but as I've read on here and elsewhere, Sitka does not seem to be weak nerved. He stayed at the breeder's until 4 months old, so he was understandable sheltered an nervous when I brought him to the big bad city. But since then he has traveled all over the country, only showing fear to 2 things: bully dogs in dog parks, and baths at the groomers.
> 
> ...


You let him grow up. You play games where he wins. You set him up to be successful, not defeated. Do you and the pup play tug. That is a great way to build confidence. Obedience training is great at building confidence. Nosework games are good at confidence building. I'll post a few video links when I get home to my computer with different games and activities that will help you and him.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> You let him grow up. You play games where he wins. You set him up to be successful, not defeated. Do you and the pup play tug. That is a great way to build confidence. Obedience training is great at building confidence. Nosework games are good at confidence building. I'll post a few video links when I get home to my computer with different games and activities that will help you and him.


Thanks! I'd really like to do nose work; I think he'd love it, We play fetch in the dark in a snowy field and he has to find his toy with nose, and he loves the heaps of praise he gets when he finds it!

We play tug sometimes, but it's not his favorite. When I let him win, he brings it back immediately. When I try to win, he lets go almost right away and looks at me like "oh, you want this? Okay, you can have it!"

I'm looking forward to the seeing the videos/links with different games and activities. I'm very glad to hear the reassurance that he is still a pup and has to grow up. He looks so grown up, its easy to over look.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Whether at a dog park or a friendly play date with a trusted dog (though it's a mystery to me how people can determine that), IMHO you have got to let your puppy defend himself sometimes, it builds confidence. If or when your puppy is crying or hiding behind you, sure help him out and shoo the other dog away! But if you want him to be less of a target you have to let him learn that he can also defend himself. He will, and you'll quickly see a change in his demeanor.


That might work for your pup (I doubt it though) but I wonder what he will like in a year or so. You don't see these effects right away, but more so once they start to go into adolescence. I worry you about putting this advice out here. If we leave them (=abandon) to their own devices, the bullies get more aggressive and the submissive and fearful ones get more fear aggressive. You see the same results n puppy classes where it is free for all because "puppies need it".
Dogs do not live in natural consistent packs that only consist of dogs who know what they are doing. Instead they have to deal with humans who most often don't have a clue of what is going on and still the dogs have to assume these same humans are in charge?
You will not cure fearfulness by letting "them work it out."


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" quite obviously getting distressed when being bullied by these dogs time and time again. "

I'd be quite tempted to use a little pepper spray on these dogs.... 

So I have heard that you are supposed to stand between the aggressor dogs and the puppy, wave a stick, roar at them and run them off. This is what a pack leader does.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What has worked for us so far is to firmly blow a referee whistle off and on, as soon as I see the wrong intention in the bully, while standing tall, facing the bully, looking strict and Deja behind me. I have her recall-trained by this sound so it is only positive for her. So far all of these dogs hesitated and I told them : "GO HOME!!!!!" while pointing where that is.These situations occur on beaches and on forest trails as I have had it with dog parks for quite some time now.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Thanks. I will definitely take this advice and NOT put Sitka in environments where he needs to go into defense mode. That's exactly what I'm training him not to do. I want him to be indifferent to dogs 90% of the time, and open to safe fair play in the appropriate 10% of the time remaining.
> 
> I often hear/read of the genetic basis for courage - weak nerved or solid. I really, really don't think Sitka is weak nerved. I'm very new to all of this, but as I've read on here and elsewhere, Sitka does not seem to be weak nerved. He stayed at the breeder's until 4 months old, so he was understandable sheltered an nervous when I brought him to the big bad city. But since then he has traveled all over the country, only showing fear to 2 things: bully dogs in dog parks, and baths at the groomers.
> 
> ...


 It sounds like Sitka was the subordinate of the littler. Not that that's a bad thing but it would explain a lot. I think you just need to keep him away from other dogs except his 2 friends. Let him grow up using look at me therapy. A 10 month old puppy does not need to be a macho dude.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

My Inga at 18 months met a black bear in the yard. I held her back by the collar as she walked forward on her hind legs ferociously barking like I have none I have never heard. She was in defense but I did not let her loose on the bear, I held her back because 1. It would have made her do into avoidance at a young age 2. It might have gotten her killed.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> My Inga at 18 months met a black bear in the yard. I held her back by the collar as she walked forward on her hind legs ferociously barking like I have none I have never heard. She was in defense but I did not let her loose on the bear, I held her back because 1. It would have made her do into avoidance at a young age 2. It might have gotten her killed.


It's a scary situation that I definitely do not want to get into! The Breeder's daughters were walking Sitka's dad off leash in the trails near their house when they saw the black bear. The dog ran at the bear, and the daughters went home, assuming the worst - that the bear had got the dog (Odvaha Twelve Gauge is his name). They were all shocked when the Odvaha met up with them later on the trail with a mouth full of bear fur :surprise:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SitkatheGSD said:


> My original question, about why Sitka was being targeted has been answer: he comes across as nervous and is an easy target. Like the friendly shy kid who keeps getting bullied because he's just too darn friendly. Now, how do we instill confidence in that little shy kid? *How do I make stop Sitka from being the victim, and so preventing the need for defensiveness*.


Not all dogs will defend themselves even when mature. Why don't you just love him for who he is? What is wrong with a big, lovable doofus that chooses not to fight with dogs? Do you even have any idea as to what a wonderful gift that is? You can take this dog any where and have a blast with him without worries! Have you ever owned a dog reactive dog or a dog aggressive dog? You know the kind, the one you choose to leave at home in the crate because you just don't want to deal with constantly looking over your shoulder for other dogs when you go out? 

Your pup needs your love and support, not your disappointment. He has done nothing wrong, sometimes expectations need to be adjusted. 

You can't stop other dogs from targeting him but you can be his best friend and have his back. Sometimes the priority lies in having a good relationship with your dog.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not all dogs will defend themselves even when mature. Why don't you just love him for who he is? What is wrong with a big, lovable doofus that chooses not to fight with dogs? Do you even have any idea as to what a wonderful gift that is? You can take this dog any where and have a blast with him without worries! Have you ever owned a dog reactive dog or a dog aggressive dog? You know the kind, the one you choose to leave at home in the crate because you just don't want to deal with constantly looking over your shoulder for other dogs when you go out?
> 
> Your pup needs your love and support, not your disappointment. He has done nothing wrong, sometimes expectations need to be adjusted.
> 
> You can't stop other dogs from targeting him but you can be his best friend and have his back. Sometimes the priority lies in having a good relationship with your dog.


You're absolutely right. What I love most about Sitka, and the reason I picked him, is because of his lovingness and his gentle, sweet disposition. I am not at all disappointed in him, and I feel awful if that's what came across. It's more that I feel bad, and worried, for him as he always gets picked on. If a dog is going to get aggressive, its against Sitka. I don't know how many times I've heard "awww, my dog is so nice. I don't know why he's being mean to your dog".

You're right. Expectations need to be adjusted. I am focussing my attention now on building my relationship with Sitka, so that he knows I always have his back.

"a big, lovable doofus: is exactly what I love about him :grin2:


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you even have any idea as to what a wonderful gift that is? You can take this dog any where and have a blast with him without worries! Have you ever owned a dog reactive dog or a dog aggressive dog? You know the kind, the one you choose to leave at home in the crate because you just don't want to deal with constantly looking over your shoulder for other dogs when you go out? .


No, I haven't owned a dog reactive dog. Before I had Sitka, I had a English Bulldog puppy from 8 weeks - 1 year ; she wouldn't even lift her head when we came in :grin2: The closest she came to 'reactive' was rolling over when another dog came near. 

I am very, very grateful to have a loving, friendly GSD for who aggression is not an issue.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SitkatheGSD said:


> "a big, lovable doofus: is exactly what I love about him :grin2:


I am glad you recognized the affection with which that was said. :grin2:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> I think maybe you should take some time to learn about defense drives in dogs before encouraging people to allow their puppies to defend themselves...
> 
> 
> Schutzhund Village
> ...


I see nothing at all in the quoted description that differs from what I said...though I admit they were more eloquent in their summary. But I do believe strongly that a puppy at 7 months of age defending itself against another puppy IS VERY DIFFERENT than asking that puppy to defend itself against a threatening human. And that is why defense against a threatening human is only introduced after the dog is at least 15 or more months old, and even then requires a helper that can read the dog well and not press him too far. But it's really an apples and oranges comparison! 



voodoolamb said:


> The confidence a dog has is largely genetic and hormonal driven. They either have it at birth or they don't.


This is just absolutely wrong. If this were true, why would anyone work on building a dog's confidence? Confidence building is an integral part of Schutzhund and LE and PP training. Puppies are very carefully nurtured in a controlled 
environment to build their confidence...before carefully introducing defense no, I thought you made this point yourself. >




voodoolamb said:


> *Get a good pup and be an idiot about pushing it's defensive boundaries and you get a mess of a dog with psych problems. *< I've seen that scenario play out time and time again. By people who willing push their dogs into defense and by people who accidentally let stuff happen.


We can surely agree to disagree, but I think it's interesting how some folks get away with being outright rude in this forum. I don't think it's really necessary...

It is important to note that I never said, nor did I intend for ANYONE to interpret what I said to mean, that you should take your puppy and force it to defend itself in the mayhem @voodoolamb or @wolfy dog have witnessed at their dog park. My experience at my local dog park has been mostly positive. Most owners are not clueless idiots, and most dogs are not savage bullies. I also never said that taking a dog to play with other dogs is a requirement for building confidence in a puppy, or that anyone should just abandon their puppy anywhere. I do believe however, that your dog will not learn to effectively interact with other dogs from you...that requires other dogs >


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I let my own dogs largely sort out their own issues, because I believe me interfering builds resentment.
Maybe I'm wrong. 
If it was any more then a squabble I would step in, and everyone is in trouble because if I bring an animal into my home it belongs here. 
But there are dogs like Shadow who just seem to bring out the worst in other dogs. She was raised in a house with 2 other permanent dogs and multiple fosters and all was fine. Strange dogs have been going after her since she was a tiny baby puppy. I would never allow her to be harassed or bullied, she is already violently afraid of other dogs. It has taken years to be able to get her near other dogs with her going insane, they need to stay away.
With a stable dog letting them sort it at the park may be ok, but if a dog is constantly being harassed then intervention needs to happen. To do otherwise isn't building confidence it's eroding it. Confidence in you and confidence in themselves.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

When Gandalf was 14 weeks old we took him to a puppy class and at the end of each class was supposed to be a puppy "play & socialization time"... I have taken my dogs to this trainer for the past 14 years and had so much respect for what this trainer had to say I thought nothing of this. The first day after class we let the puppies go play and to my shock so did the other training group of adult dogs... little Gandalf got attacked and hid under some guys truck the entire time (an hour) and when he did get a little courage to venture out to try to get a ball a irish settler would charge him, pin him to the ground and snarl at him. The trainer just kept laughing and telling me rip the dog off and show him you will defend him.. its normal for little puppies to be scared for a while they grow up and learn to defend themselves. She said the fact that my GSD pup wasn't cocky showed he would grow up to be a stable confident dog (what?). I believed it up until 3 classes or so the same irish setter every time kept going for my guy more violently and he was completely fixated on my puppy. I scooped Gandalf up and we never went back. He had several other better and fun dog interactions at other classes with more age appropriate playmates so I think that built his confidence. He went through a leash reactive period around 6 months (not terrible just a slight lunging and a bark here and there) but I worked hard to correct it... I had to completely stop letting him play with other dogs because he expected to play with every dog he saw on the street. I have high expectations for him and expect him to be able to walk by my side and ignore other dogs while working. I really wish there was a way I could let him play with other dogs yet at the same time keep his focus on leash and in public when we need it but it doesn't seem like it's possible to convey that idea to a dog? It seems either you let them play and expect them to be bad on leash in public or you never let them play with other dogs and they behave and don't expect to greet every single dog they see. I've seen other breeds with less drive that seem capable of this but not my shepherds. He gets so much joy just romping around with other friendly dogs, he is a naturally friendly and sociable fellow, it's disappointing not letting him just be a dog some times. I put so much stress on him always asking him to work it would be a nice reward for him. Another thing is I don't know any other dogs that I would want my dog to play with because they all seem like bad influences. My dog is much better behaved than all the dogs I see on the streets. If you had one dog friend would he realize the difference and not want to greet other dogs on the street? All of my dogs in the past have never had playmates, never went to dog parks, never had friends. Maybe it's just the human in me but I feel like we should all have friends of our own species... For now I give him all i've got and I try to be his best friend and play mate.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Tim, you are talking about "_mostly_ positive experiences,_most_ owners are not clueless idiots", etc. This implies that there _are_ bad experiences with people who _are _clueless, which is common in dog parks. My concern is that a young impressionable dog often only needs one good scare to make him dog aggressive. Not all dogs/pups in parks are resilient. Many are poorly bred and come from puppy mills/rescues but most are loved and cherished pets and I have seen the devastation in families who have to deal with these effects to the point that the dog has to be re-homed or is no longer walked. I agree with you that a resilient, well-bred stable pup can handle one or two scuffles that weren't fair. This may very well be your dog. I too have a dog from these kinda lines and experienced this a few times with a previous pup without the dog becoming DA. But not everyone here on this forum has a dog like that, so we have to be careful with blanket advice.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> voodoolamb said:
> 
> 
> > I think maybe you should take some time to learn about defense drives in dogs before encouraging people to allow their puppies to defend themselves...
> ...


 OK I am kind of lost in this post so I'll just leave the rest on here. Regarding defense and building dogs confidence. Putting a dog into defense too early will more than not result in the same outcome regardless of the opposition. The dog will go from defense into avoidance and this will very quickly become his go to reaction.
This is where a dog and helper differ from a dog and dog scenario. A helper will read the dog and hopefully stop before the dog gets to avoidance and let the dog win. This will make the dog stronger. Another dog will also read the dog. Except instead of stopping and letting the dog win he will push well beyond avoidance and make sure the dog knows he is stronger and not to be challenged. So I'm not sure how that would make a dog stronger. 
Dogs being dogs eventually the weaker dog may feel he has no chance to flee and retaliate out of aggression. Then you have to worry about the dog taking it to the other dog first. Not because the dog is stronger. Simply out of desperation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Dogs being dogs eventually the weaker dog may feel he has no chance to flee and retaliate out of aggression. *Then you have to worry about the dog taking it to the other dog first. *Not because the dog is stronger. Simply out of desperation.


Which is exactly where Shadow ended up. And without a supportive and determined owner would she would have been wrongly accused of uncontrollable aggression and eventually destroyed.
A huge percentage of the rehabs I have seen were never aggressive, they were scared beyond the capacity to reason and incapable at that point of anything other then a strong offense. It's all false bravado, they have nothing else.
Further, for years Shadow hated going for walks. Would race home to hide in her crate, face in the corner trembling.
Now that is an extreme, but imagine having a dog that is terrified outside of her own yard. Most reactive dogs will never hit that point but it does give some insight into the psychology.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> SitkatheGSD said:
> 
> 
> > My original question, about why Sitka was being targeted has been answer: he comes across as nervous and is an easy target. Like the friendly shy kid who keeps getting bullied because he's just too darn friendly. Now, how do we instill confidence in that little shy kid? *How do I make stop Sitka from being the victim, and so preventing the need for defensiveness*.
> ...


I definitely know this struggle!!! My gsd can go anywhere and my reactive cattle dog can’t....working on that though lol


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > Dogs being dogs eventually the weaker dog may feel he has no chance to flee and retaliate out of aggression. *Then you have to worry about the dog taking it to the other dog first. *Not because the dog is stronger. Simply out of desperation.
> ...


 Makes ya wonder what exactly she went through to get to that point. Sounds like she was fortunate you found her. My young male is no where near that. He actually has no issues with other dogs. But has issues with people. Same type of thing being discussed here. Lack of socialization, along with physical abuse as a young pup. Constantly being beat down emotionally and physically. Kind of ruined him towards humans. No environmental or dog issues just people. Sure maybe a genetically stronger dog would have overcome these things with no issues but now I just have to push him as far as he is able to go.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Makes ya wonder what exactly she went through to get to that point. Sounds like she was fortunate you found her. My young male is no where near that. He actually has no issues with other dogs. But has issues with people. Same type of thing being discussed here. Lack of socialization, along with physical abuse as a young pup. Constantly being beat down emotionally and physically. Kind of ruined him towards humans. No environmental or dog issues just people. Sure maybe a genetically stronger dog would have overcome these things with no issues but now I just have to push him as far as he is able to go.


Shadows case was easy to figure out, hard to fix. From the day I brought her home she was surrounded by nurturing dogs in the house, but was attacked multiple times by strange dogs off the property(because I lived in a crappy area). Eventually her little brain put together that the family she lived with was safe but other dogs were not. So to this day dogs in the house are ok, dogs outside are evil. However the last two dogs I brought in were supposed to be friendly and went right after her. So at this point I can safely say that even social dogs react to something about her. Even when she tries to be friendly. Open mouth, soft eyes, waving tail because she thinks dogs in the house are good.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Thanks. I will definitely take this advice and NOT put Sitka in environments where he needs to go into defense mode. That's exactly what I'm training him not to do. I want him to be indifferent to dogs 90% of the time, and open to safe fair play in the appropriate 10% of the time remaining.
> 
> I often hear/read of the genetic basis for courage - weak nerved or solid. I really, really don't think Sitka is weak nerved. I'm very new to all of this, but as I've read on here and elsewhere, Sitka does not seem to be weak nerved. He stayed at the breeder's until 4 months old, so he was understandable sheltered an nervous when I brought him to the big bad city. But since then he has traveled all over the country, only showing fear to 2 things: bully dogs in dog parks, and baths at the groomers.
> 
> ...


Don't ask me why but agility does wonders for dogs with low confidence. Keep it light, fun and rewarding. 
Climb stuff with him, get him to walk across stuff. It will also help you with letting him know you are there to help.
When you walk him and see another dog, get his focus on you and keep right on moving. This will help him understand that he need not interact with other dogs.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> So at this point I can safely say that even social dogs react to something about her. Even when she tries to be friendly. Open mouth, soft eyes, waving tail because she thinks dogs in the house are good.


I brought Sitka home from the breeders house. He has never been in a fight, never been abused. He greets every dog with an open mouth, soft eyes, and waving tail. But 3 out of 4 times, the other dog will bully him. I won't say 'attack', because he's never been, really, attacked. But they will chase him, tower over him, mount him, and generally try to bully him. He is still not afraid of dogs, at least off leash, but he submits at the slightest dominance, and runs away at anything more than slight. 

I think he's just a vulnerable soul. Until he is older and stronger, I will keep him away from unfamiliar dogs. 

Lucky for us, there are no other dogs in the house.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> OK I am kind of lost in this post so I'll just leave the rest on here. Regarding defense and building dogs confidence. Putting a dog into defense too early will more than not result in the same outcome regardless of the opposition. The dog will go from defense into avoidance and this will very quickly become his go to reaction.
> This is where a dog and helper differ from a dog and dog scenario. A helper will read the dog and hopefully stop before the dog gets to avoidance and let the dog win. This will make the dog stronger. Another dog will also read the dog. Except instead of stopping and letting the dog win he will push well beyond avoidance and make sure the dog knows he is stronger and not to be challenged. So I'm not sure how that would make a dog stronger.
> Dogs being dogs eventually the weaker dog may feel he has no chance to flee and retaliate out of aggression. Then you have to worry about the dog taking it to the other dog first. Not because the dog is stronger. Simply out of desperation.


Thank you! You made my point better than I did


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I am amazed by the responses here. In particular, @cdwoodcox said.



> Putting a dog into defense too early will more than not result in the same outcome regardless of the opposition. The dog will go from defense into avoidance and this will very quickly become his go to reaction.


Couldn't agree more! But this?



> This is where a dog and helper differ from a dog and dog scenario. A helper will read the dog and hopefully stop before the dog gets to avoidance and let the dog win. This will make the dog stronger. Another dog will also read the dog. Except instead of stopping and letting the dog win he will push well beyond avoidance and make sure the dog knows he is stronger and not to be challenged. So I'm not sure how that would make a dog stronger.


Not at all! The dog's perception of the threat dictates how far it can be pressed, exactly what I said before...apples and oranges. You cannot equate puppy on puppy interaction or stress with a human threat. The puppy, or dog, does not view them the same way. They are not equivalent! 

But, that being said, as I said before, err on the side of caution always...with any dog you only get one chance to do it right!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I want to add that I'm not now, nor have I ever suggested that dog parks are good for everyone. But it's mostly about the owner if it doesn't work out from my limited experience. And honestly, in training other people's dogs, the biggest problem is not the dog usually....


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Let me add also, HAPPY HOLIDAYS to you all, wherever you live! I hope this year was a good one, and next year for you and yours is way better!

All the best! Tim


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

The issue I have with dog parks is the other owners. A dog is what it is. My dog has some dog aggression. Who's to blame, whether it's me or genetics, is irrelevant in my opinion. That said he's managed pretty well and behaves himself with me. But I have no doubts about how it would play out if he's greeted by another dog, especially on leash. And thats exactly what I'd expect to happen at a dog park. He's not a dog park dog. He's not an off leash beach dog. And I'm perfectly fine with that. He will heel thru other people and dogs and that's good enough for me for now. However I know there's others who have this type of dog who will bring it to the beach or park and ignore him so they can socialize and enjoy their late.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

SitkatheGSD said:


> My original question, about why Sitka was being targeted has been answer: he comes across as nervous and is an easy target. Like the friendly shy kid who keeps getting bullied because he's just too darn friendly. Now, how do we instill confidence in that little shy kid? How do I make stop Sitka from being the victim, and so preventing the need for defensiveness.


Take him into situations where he's challenged, but you bring him through the challenge so he wins. Like teaching him to walk across a fallen tree laying over a creek (low to the ground so if he falls, he just gets wet). Or jumping over logs and other obstacles on command. Or getting him to push his boundaries when swimming and go into deeper water. You could put a ball just out of reach and he has to figure out how to get it. You could teach him how to play hide and seek, where you go hide somewhere and he has to come find you. Environmental obstacles and challenges like that work well for building overall confidence.

All of these are pretty simple, low-key challenges for a young dog. Your challenge should push him just to the point where he's slightly uncomfortable, but willing to work just a little bit harder to beat the challenge. And then when he wins you throw a party.

He just needs to learn that when he's challenged with something, if he thinks and works through it, he can overcome it. He just doesn't know he can do that!


You mentioned tug earlier and how Sitka just brings the tug toy right back to you when he wins--or doesn't win. That's actually what you want. It means he thought that was fun and wants to play some more. To him, you were playing fairly. You, the much larger human, took the time to adjust your strength to match his instead of just overpowering him. Dogs often to this to each other, and they have an innate sense for this concept of fairness.


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## ksxelaw (7 mo ago)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Hi guys, It's been a while since I've posted here. Sitka is 10 months old now and doing great! He loves long hikes, playing with other pups 1 on 1, and training in the park. He can sit, lie down, stay, shake a paw, dance, kiss, heel, be gentle, and leave it. Sitka's favorite thing in the world is playing, so if I can't bring him to a park to play fetch, or go for a long hike, I've brought him to the dog park. (I know, dog parks are evil... we're not going anymore). Sitka is a big boy (70+ lbs) and very friendly! He's polite with the other dogs, not jumping, or over excited. He always listens if they tell him off. But, it seems, every time we go to the dog park he gets ganged up on and bullied by one or more of the dogs. Two or three dogs will be playing, and Sitka comes into the mix and they bark and chase him. Today a Shepsky chased him around the park. I was calling Sitka because he was running with his tail between his legs, but the other dogs owner was just laughing. The other dog eventually caught Sitka by biting his hind end and Sitka yelped. I ran to Sitka and was petting him, when the other dog's owner came over, grabbed Sitka's collar, and started calling his dog to come over. Obviously I told the guy off, but he just kept laughing. We were walking towards the exit and the dog was chasing Sitka again, and nipped him again. Like I said, we're not going to dog parks anymore. But this wasn't an isolated incident. Sitka often seems to get bullied/ganged up on by other dogs, regardless of their size. The breeder said he was the smallest male of the litter, and spent a lot of time on her and her daughter's laps because the other males would gang up on him and pin him down. My question is, why? Why do you think some dogs are targets for other dogs? Sitka loves playing with dogs, and I wouldn't call him shy or fearful, but I'm afraid if this keeps happening he will become reactive to it. Here is a recent picture; I'm not sure if appearance makes a difference to dog behaviour, but I've heard dogs can be more reactive to dogs with dark/hidden features. Also... Why can't I rotate the photo? Its driving me crazy!


 My dog (a 6 month old German Shepherd) also gets bullied by two dogs (my sisters’ and my friends’) they’re a poodle (8 years old) and a labradoodle (1 year old) and I have to always watch them to make sure he’s not yelping or putting his tail behind his legs and we put the other dogs in time out when it happens, but it happens so often that I’m not sure what to do. He yelps and they constantly knock him down and try to bite him on his butt or if he’s laying down to rest they just bark and bark at him. I want them to all hang out and my dog enjoys it to a point, but also I don’t like the gang up and I, too am scared of the react. I’m also glad you mentioned the dog park, because I will definitely not be taking my dog to one if he will be bullied there as well.


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