# My puppy's pedigree- thoughts??



## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

I already purchased this puppy a little over a week ago as a family dog. He is doing wonderful so far. I have seen comments about pedigree breeding choices and am curious to your thoughts on this combination. I have no interest in breeding this puppy but just interested in your thoughts to their choice and what you think his breeding shows his personality and drive should be like. He's just a pet so we were targeting health and personality when we got him.... we met the sire and dam and they both were very social and friendly. Our pup was in excellent health checking out with no health concerns or parasites so far. 

Thanks for your input and thoughts.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

For ease of searching. 

Litter from Knurri's Peik and Gretchen vom Haus Baysden


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry pedigree makes no sense. 
where is the sire and the dam . The OP's pedigree starts at the grandparents.

Mycobra-- the PDB pedigree does not agree with the photocopied one that the OP posted.

example -- Gretchen Baysden goes to Quigley Baysden and Ursa Brewer.

The PDB version shows Gretchen Baysden to be a progeny of Sirk Schwarzen Milan and Karla Erlenbusch.

huge difference . 

PDB version makes no mention of Jake Crusenhaus and Nina Crusenhaus which the OPs document show as the maternal grandparents.

ike of sapphire mountain


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Sorry, I cropped the image as I didn't want to share the breeders info without permission though I don't think she would care. Shows how much I know about pedigree.... I was thinking starting with the grandparents would be just as beneficial. 

I have attached the actual sire and **** portion of my puppy pedigree.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

very messy paper work 

Gretchen Baysden reg # SZ 8014569 progeny of Sirk Schwarzen Milan and Karla Erlenbusch 
Gretchen vom Haus Baysden

on the AKC papers shown , (cropped version) a "Gretchen" Baysden is shown
On the AKC papers THAT Gretchen is a progeny of Quigley vom haus Baysden and Ursa von Brewer.

If I go to the PDB and look for progeny of Quigley v h Baysden and Ursa von Brewer 
reg # AKC DN33897402
Lisa Gretchen vom haus Baysden
name is shown as Lisa Gretchen vom haus Baysden 
the name is not shown as such to match the reg number on the OP's AKC document

on the vom Baysden web site they show Puppies - Baysden German Shepherds
Gretchen vom haus Baysden has been bred to Knurri's Peik. Puppies are here. Born on April 2nd, 2016. 1 sable female remaining. 3rd shot this week. (July 25th).

There is not even a mention of Yaro ?? There is not even a mention of Luna Aventin ?? anywhere 
can't find anything on Sheba vom parks

some paper work , perhaps a lot of paper work has to be cleaned up 

pedigree is very different between SZ 8014569 and AKC DN33897402

If I go to the "sire" as per the AKC document - Yaro -- no info on the PDB 

does not show up as a progeny of Knurri's Peik if I check the progeny list of Peik.

okay so exactly what is that document that you are showing k9trainersj?

I had to go into my files and pull out an old AKC registration and an AKC certified 3 generation
pedigree to compare the paperwork you have provided (which is what?)

nothing looks like that . AND here is something that puzzles me - might need some insight here --

when you have the sire's and dam's information listed with an AKC number do the date numbers in brackets beside it not indicate the date of birth?

why on the document does it show Yaro (reported as sire) as (06/16) ? and Luna (reported as dam) as (08/16) ???

puzzling


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Shew... I'm having trouble keeping up. Lol. I know Yaro and Luna are not owned by the Braysden people. Yaro was purchased from them I know they now have a litter for sale of the same parents as Yaro. Luna came from a different breeder. 

Not sure if it helps but the lady we bought our pup from said this breeding was accidental. Both parents are too young and typically wouldn't be bred until at least 2 years old after having elbow and hips evaluated. 

Like you said, I couldn't find Yaro or Luna under the pedigree search. I thought maybe because it was an accidental breeding and both parents were young? I believe one parent was 16 months while the other was 18 months. 

The paper I have is titled AKC "litter certificate". Is that actually supposed to be DOB in the parentheses?

Does this help?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not sure, but I think the date in brackets next to the DN number is the date of registration - not the date of birth.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

NancyJ said:


> Could it be the Gretchen in question is this one from a later breeding-The AKC number matches up and the other Gretchen referenced would be 14 now
> 
> Lisa Gretchen vom haus Baysden


I'm pretty sure the Lisa Gretchen is the Gretchen.... same pic I saw before.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how old are the sire and the dam?


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

16 and 18 months... accidental breeding.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

So, can anyone give me an idea to what personality you predict my puppy to have based off his pedigree? I know some had questions about his pedigree but I read post where some say all working lines, show lines or a mixed when they have looked at other people's post. Some say not a good mix and likely not to make good family dog based off of what they have seen on other people's papers.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

scrap the pedigree -- 

there are names that do not match - information missing -- 

most importantly is the pup that you have right there in front of you .

what do you think? you decide the future by seeking out the best qualities and
making the most of them, which should always be the case no matter what .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would chat with the folks at Vom Haus Baysden (you can google them) as well as the breeder (realizing it was oops) ...... a number of years ago I looked at a pup they had to offer. Did not wind up that route but it was because of the specific sire (who I don't see in this breeding) after talking with the person who had worked him in the nationals. They are going to know their dogs better than anyone.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

carmspack said:


> scrap the pedigree --
> 
> there are names that do not match - information missing --
> 
> ...


He is and is doing wonderful. We are very pleased with him. I didn't ask to impact keeping him or not just mostly for curiosity and to get an idea to what personality and drive you guys thought he would have. 

I'm still confused to his pedigree.... I'm going to investigate it more but don't know much of what I'm looking at. What names don't match particularly so I can look into it?

Thanks!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't know a single thing about the "breeder" , but this is a good example to use as the "cautionary tale".

This is what happens when you have two dogs of opposite sex under one roof.

I bet their story is that they got a pup , whichever is the elder of the two, fell in love with the fun and antics and then
wanted to get a companion , a pet for their pet , and got themselves puppy number two.

The first season was managed because everyone was keyed to look out for it . The second one comes along not
exactly on calendar and now you have young virile determined dogs having a go - and surprise ! puppies.

It happens. 

I would talk to the Baysden folks , they can help straighten out the litter application information .

You did get to meet the sire and dam?
How were they?

How is your puppy ? Is he social . Does he adapt to situations. Does he have a good appetite without issues and appears to be growing ?


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I don't know a single thing about the "breeder" , but this is a good example to use as the "cautionary tale".
> 
> This is what happens when you have two dogs of opposite sex under one roof.
> 
> ...


I was told she had them and went out of town and the female was in a kennel in heat. Someone was caring for them and left the gate un-locked and she knew how to open latches and got out. The owner came home to them in the same "lot". Not use if all true but that's what I was told. 

Met both parents and they were very social and friendly. Sire was very ball driven but otherwise calm and had good manners. Mom was more independent but social an well mannered. 

The puppy has been wonderful. Very bold and brave. LoveSteven people and animals. Met the goats ando walked right up. He hasn't spooked by anything including vacuum, lawn mower, hair dryer or anything. He has done wonderful with our 2 yr old son. Plays with toys and not too mouthy or unruly with him. He goes to work with me every day and meets other vaccinated and healthy dogs along with various people. 

I will reach out the the Brayden people and see what they say. Your concerns with the pedigree are on the sire or dams side? Or both?


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

When I look at Gretchen and Knurri's Piek on pedigree search it all matches the litter certificate I have from what I can tell. Only thing I can see odd is I can't find the actual sire and dam Yaro or Luna on it. Nor can I find many of Luna'so lines. Where do most people search to compare the info I have matches? Is there another site other than the pedigree search site? 

I feel dumb looking at this stuff.... is it me or this stuff difficult to look at and learn?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Remember that Pedigree Database is only as good as the person entering in data which any member can do. Which means, that the sire at 16-18 months old might not be listed as progeny because his owner hasn't listed him there.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

selzer said:


> Remember that Pedigree Database is only as good as the person entering in data which any member can do. Which means, that the sire at 16-18 months old might not be listed as progeny because his owner hasn't listed him there.


Oh that's good to know. Maybe his pedigree isn't that bad after all?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

k9trainersj said:


> Oh that's good to know. Maybe his pedigree isn't that bad after all?


I wouldn't know, working lines are not my study. I thought originally that a lot of the names were hoakie American attempts to sound German (American Pet Lines), like Cujo von der Selzerhaus. But then I clicked on the PDB, and maybe that isn't the case at all. But I am not familiar with them, so not helpful at all.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Well I appreciate your input anyway.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

they don't match 

"- Gretchen Baysden goes to Quigley Baysden and Ursa Brewer.

The PDB version shows Gretchen Baysden to be a progeny of Sirk Schwarzen Milan and Karla Erlenbusch.

huge difference . "

"very messy paper work 

Gretchen Baysden reg # SZ 8014569 progeny of Sirk Schwarzen Milan and Karla Erlenbusch 
Gretchen vom Haus Baysden

on the AKC papers shown , (cropped version) a "Gretchen" Baysden is shown
On the AKC papers THAT Gretchen is a progeny of Quigley vom haus Baysden and Ursa von Brewer.

If I go to the PDB and look for progeny of Quigley v h Baysden and Ursa von Brewer 
reg # AKC DN33897402
Lisa Gretchen vom haus Baysden
name is shown as Lisa Gretchen vom haus Baysden 
the name is not shown as such to match the reg number on the OP's AKC document "

your dog is from LISA Gretchen vom haus Baysden --- different sire and dam and registration number (who goes to Quigley and Ursa) 

than the Gretchen vom haus Baysden (who goes to Sirk and Karla) 

Pedigree has to be corrected to show LISA Gretchen ......


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm not sure, but I think the date in brackets next to the DN number is the date of registration - not the date of birth.


Looked it up on the AKC website:

The date shown in parentheses after a dog's registration number is the month and year of the issue of the AKC Stud Book Register in which the dog's first breeding experience is recorded.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

carmspack said:


> they don't match
> 
> "- Gretchen Baysden goes to Quigley Baysden and Ursa Brewer.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is definitely "Lisa Gretchen". I will check in about that with the AKC when I send my AKC papers in. Maybe just the litter certificate is wrong.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It isn't just the name , it is the entire family line up that LISA gretchen has , which 
is very very different from the Sirk and Karla Gretchen .


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Yeah, his pedigree should follow Lisa Gretchen and her actual pedigree. Right? Once it is correct from her and on it should be accurate?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

should -- you need to get correct information on some of the missing dogs


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Okay thank you for your assistance. From what we can tell from his pedigree and know what is your guess to his pedigree background? I was told from german inport/working lines and Czech. I'm just curious to what to expect as he gets older.... drive? Energy level and things?


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Just spoke to AKC and they assured me his pedigree is accurate. The paper I have and shared with yall is just a litter certificate and doesn't disclose all information on file like an official pedigree would. Like titles, healtg tests and things. She looked it over and said that everything was good and they have DNA on all the dogs making sure everyone matched accurately. She explained name differences between registrations and all can vary as some people change names on dogs. She said the registered number is the real key and what you focus on. 

I hope this is accurate!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Is it possible that there actually are two bitches with the same name? The Gretchen on PDB was listed or born or hit the stud book in 2002. This Gretchen first hit the stud book in 2015 -- not the same dog. But the AKC could have allowed the name, because they do not keep records of all the SV dogs that use that name.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Yes, I believe that's the case.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Legacy is her litter-sister -- AKC numbers 402, 403. So, she was probably called Lisa following the alphabet litter naming process, and the new owners chose to put in her AKC paperwork as Gretchen using the breeder's kennel name. When whoever listed her on Pedigree database tried to put in Gretchen they probably came up with an error due to the dog already being listed under that name, the bitch from 2002. So, probably the litter-owner listed her as Lisa Gretchen... 

You can probably use the tools on PDB to match the stud dog to Lisa Gretchen, and you will get a more correct picture of who your dog is.


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## Rosco810 (Sep 16, 2003)

I bought Jyotsna vom Haus Baysden as a puppy from them. She would have been a full sister from a later litter from Gretchen. I would kind of like to train her again today. Basically I had to chose who to work between her and my male Aragorn, and I chose him. She was a bit more standoffish to strangers, intelligent to the extreme (like watching you and then knowing how to turn doorknobs and gate latches), and very serious.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer said:


> Is it possible that there actually are two bitches with the same name? The Gretchen on PDB was listed or born or hit the stud book in 2002. This Gretchen first hit the stud book in 2015 -- not the same dog. But the AKC could have allowed the name, because they do not keep records of all the SV dogs that use that name.


there is the confusion -- one is LISA Gretchen (Quigley progeny)
the other is officially SZ registered Gretchen (Sirk progeny)

it is sloppy paper work - the dog had to have her full REGISTERED name entered , not just her familiar "call" name


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Rosco810 said:


> I bought Jyotsna vom Haus Baysden as a puppy from them. She would have been a full sister from a later litter from Gretchen. I would kind of like to train her again today. Basically I had to chose who to work between her and my male Aragorn, and I chose him. She was a bit more standoffish to strangers, intelligent to the extreme (like watching you and then knowing how to turn doorknobs and gate latches), and very serious.


Oh wow, so you have a relative to my Axel. That's cool! Can you share a pic? Love to see her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> there is the confusion -- one is LISA Gretchen (Quigley progeny)
> the other is officially SZ registered Gretchen (Sirk progeny)
> 
> it is sloppy paper work - the dog had to have her full REGISTERED name entered , not just her familiar "call" name


I think it is her AKC registered name, else the AKC litter certificate would not print it as such. 

I think she just added it to the registered name in PDB because it spit out the name because the name was already used. If the original Gretchen was AKC registered, the second Gretchen would have had an "I" after her full name. PDB is only as good as those typing it in. The bitch's name is Gretchen Vom Haus Baysden.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

selzer said:


> carmspack said:
> 
> 
> > there is the confusion -- one is LISA Gretchen (Quigley progeny)
> ...


Thanks, I feel better after speaking to AKC. They seemed confident everything was accurate. I'll know more when I get the official pedigree after registering Axel under me. Seems like most have good ratings in hips and elbows which is important.


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## Rosco810 (Sep 16, 2003)

I don't have a lot of pictures of Juno (Jyotsna vom Haus Baysden). Just to be clear, she is from the Sirk vom Schwarzen Milan x Karla vom Erlenbusch breeding. Unfortunately my computer crashed erasing most of my pictures for a few years  She kind of had the Crok head (her grandfather). I wasn't very good at taking stacked pictures then either.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Rosco810 said:


> I don't have a lot of pictures of Juno (Jyotsna vom Haus Baysden). Just to be clear, she is from the Sirk vom Schwarzen Milan x Karla vom Erlenbusch breeding. Unfortunately my computer crashed erasing most of my pictures for a few years [I'M]http://www.germanshepherds.com//forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG] She kind of had the Crok head (her grandfather). I wasn't very good at taking stacked pictures then either.


Okay, then not the same Gretchen.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Pretty dog!


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