# Want to become a breeder.



## Oscar101

This is the only breed of dog that I like. I love training with Diesel and would like to continue taking care of more dogs. What are the proper steps I should take in order be able to achieve this.


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## Konotashi

Prove that Diesel is breed worthy. Does he fit the standard for GSDs? Have an experience third party judge his conformation and temperament. 
Get titles on him. SchH, obedience, tracking, herding, etc. Basically any type of title that can prove his working ability. 
Once he turns two years old, get him health tested. At the very minimum, have his hips and elbows OFAd. 

Study his pedigree extensively. Know pretty much everything you can learn about every dog in his pedigree. What kind of dogs they're known to produce, health issues, the kind of drive they tend to pass onto puppies, etc. 

A good kennel is built on the bitches, so find a GOOD female, probably one that's already proven herself (not a puppy). Likely one that already has at least her hips cleared, has good drive and temperament, etc. The all-around GSD. 

Then I'll just let the others come along, because I think my post is a bit scrambled and all over the place. Hopefully that'll be a good starting point for you, though.


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## Oscar101

Well he's the first gsd that I've had. He looks perfect to me. I know he will succeed in any class we take. He's barely 4 months and is already in a training program. What I really want to know is if there is a set written standard in which it states how to take care of the female when she becomes pregnant?


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## Konotashi

Is he AKC registered with a pedigree? If not, then don't breed him. 

It's easy to say your dog looks perfect, when you're biased. I have a Pom, and even though I know he doesn't fit the standard, I still think he's perfect. He's a wonderful dog. Could probably make wonderful puppies. However, I know nothing of his background, and he has horrible conformation for a Pom. 

If you want, take some photos of him stacked and put him in the critique section. A lot of people can tell a puppy's potential, as far as conformation goes, with a few good pics. 
Here's a video on how to stack a GSD. Pretty much the same thing with a pup. (I wouldn't expect for him to be this cooperative when you try it, if you've never done it before). 




 
Look at the flowchart on this page and follow it. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html

The only reason anyone should ever breed their dog is to try and better the breed as a whole. 

As far as I know, there's no 'set' standard for whelping pups. There are a lot of people on here who are knowledgeable in that area, but you can never EXPECT anything to go as planned. Things can go wrong and you might lose the mom and/or her puppies, rush her in for an emergency c-section, she may reject the puppies, forcing you to hand raise them, etc. etc. 

Breeding is not something to be considered lightly.


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## Oscar101

He is registered with the AKC. Also, I do have his pedigree. What should I be looking for in it? That's pretty much what I would like to learn about. What could happen in worst case scenarios.


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## Konotashi

Worst case scenarios? Here's a few....

During the actual breeding - if the female tries to run away or get away after they tie, she can rip the male's penis off. 

During whelping - a puppy can be breached or stuck in the birth canal, blocking the way for all the other puppies. This can result in death of all puppies and the mom if she's not taken in ASAP for an emergency c-section. 
Some dogs don't make good moms and will reject their puppies. Some may just walk away and refuse to feed them, others may attack and kill a few, or all of them. 
Sometimes a female will have a false pregnancy and shows all signs of being pregnant - including weight gain - but will not have puppies. 
Sometimes things can cause a pregnant female to absorb her puppies. 

There's so much that can go wrong - it's near impossible to list them all here. Send Selzer a PM, since she's probably one of the more knowledgeable ones on what can go wrong.


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## Oscar101

Wow, that's some serious consequences. I believe I need to do extensive research in many different subject in order to maximize the odds of being successful. Thanks for all your input so far.


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## cliffson1

Refreshing!, nice posts Konotashi!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oscar101 said:


> Wow, that's some serious consequences. I believe I need to do extensive research in many different subject in order to maximize the odds of being successful. Thanks for all your input so far.


 That is great!

There are GSD rescues in Colorado. You can get more experience with the breed, perhaps even take in a mom and pups, learn about screening potential owners, etc, all while helping dogs and the breed, by volunteering!


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## Oscar101

Great idea. Im going to locate a rescue and ask about volunteering.


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## 4TheDawgies

So glad you are taking the time to educate yourself Oscar! Keep an open mind and never stop learning!


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## Wolfgeist

Great job, everyone who posted in this thread.


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## NEROtic

Oscar, I am glad you're taking the time to re-think your decision to breed. There is already an over population of unwanted dogs. Tens of thousands of dogs are put down A DAY because there aren't enough homes. Are you willing to accept that some of your puppies would have the same fate? Or are you willing to accept that for every puppy purchased from a breeder, a dog in a shelter is put to death? 

Do you realize that breeding a dog costs you thousands of dollars per litter, a price which you are not going to make back in the sales of the puppies?

Oscar, you and I are neighbors. I live near Denver as well. If you are interested in getting more involved in the breed, I would gladly help you. There are many rescues that need volunteers with training, socializing, and fosters. As well as that, Colorado has some amazing breed clubs and working dog clubs. I recommend getting yourself and your dog involved with those.


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## Oscar101

Yea I was looking at German Shepherd Rescue of the Rockies. Do you know anything about them? Also I still want to breed my dog. He's barely 4 months so there's a long way to go. For right now It would be greatly appreciated if you could help me get involved with said groups.


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## NEROtic

Don't EVER breed a dog that is not titled. This goes beyond registration. What does your dog have that makes him worth breeding? Can you prove it? These are the things you have to consider. 

WHY do you want to breed your dog? Here are some valid reasons:
-He has great conformation. If that's the case, show him and get his CH title.
-He's a great working dog. If this is the case, get involved in a dog sport such as agility or schutzhund. 

I haven't had any personal experience with them, but any time spent volunteering is good time spent.


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## Oscar101

What I don't get is that I want to breed my dog for the satisfaction. The only concern I have is to produce healthy puppies. If I better the breed good if not, oh well. The only thing I want to do is educate my self in achieving best possible puppies. The only way I wouldn't breed my dog is if I find health problems in him or if his temperament changes. By the way I am going to try and get titles for him. Not so that I can breed him, but because of the fun it will be.


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## doggiedad

you don't breed dogs for human satisfaction. breed them
for the good of the dog. is your dog breed worthy? i think
that attitude "if i better the breed good if not, oh well" is totally
the wrong attitude. 



Oscar101 said:


> What I don't get is that I want to breed my dog for the satisfaction. The only concern I have is to produce healthy puppies.
> 
> >>>> If I better the breed good if not, oh well. <<<<
> 
> The only thing I want to do is educate my self in achieving best possible puppies. The only way I wouldn't breed my dog is if I find health problems in him or if his temperament changes. By the way I am going to try and get titles for him. Not so that I can breed him, but because of the fun it will be.


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## NEROtic

I agree with the above. It's simply irresponsible to breed any animal for nothing other than your own wants and desires.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Oscar101 said:


> What I don't get is that I want to breed my dog for the satisfaction. The only concern I have is to produce healthy puppies. If I better the breed good if not, oh well. The only thing I want to do is educate my self in achieving best possible puppies. The only way I wouldn't breed my dog is if I find health problems in him or if his temperament changes. By the way I am going to try and get titles for him. Not so that I can breed him, but because of the fun it will be.



In my opinion, this is a very selfish statement. There are thousands of GSDs in shelters, many of which will get put to sleep - the ONLY valid reason to breed is to better the GSD breed.


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## Liesje

I disagree that it is irresponsible and wrong to breed for oneself. IMO that's one of the top reasons TO breed. How often on here are breeders lambasted for how many dogs they breed and sell but never hold back and train themselves? My pie-in-the-sky future goal is to earn a SchH3 (and all the other titles I do with my dogs) with a B-HOT dog. I couldn't really care less why other people breed or whether other people want me to breed or not. It's a free country. If you like my type of dog then you can probably get one and if not there are thousands of other breeders out there. I want to produce dogs that *I* feel are strong, healthy, correct, stable, courageous dogs so I can train them and exhibit them myself. The best breeders I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with are the ones that breed for themselves, when they are ready to carry on their bloodline and hold back a dog for their training.

Come on, on the most basic level *everyone* breeds for _human satisfaction_. That's why we have hundreds of years of domesticated animals, most of whom no longer perform duties required for our livelihood.


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## selzer

Liesje said:


> I disagree that it is irresponsible and wrong to breed for oneself. IMO that's one of the top reasons TO breed. How often on here are breeders lambasted for how many dogs they breed and sell but never hold back and train themselves? My pie-in-the-sky future goal is to earn a SchH3 (and all the other titles I do with my dogs) with a B-HOT dog. I couldn't really care less why other people breed or whether other people want me to breed or not. It's a free country. If you like my type of dog then you can probably get one and if not there are thousands of other breeders out there. I want to produce dogs that *I* feel are strong, healthy, correct, stable, courageous dogs so I can train them and exhibit them myself. The best breeders I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with are the ones that breed for themselves, when they are ready to carry on their bloodline and hold back a dog for their training.
> 
> Come on, on the most basic level *everyone* breeds for _human satisfaction_. That's why we have hundreds of years of domesticated animals, most of whom no longer perform duties required for our livelihood.


:thumbup: I guess that is my like button.

Personally, I get pretty scared when everyone is encouraged to breed only to improve the breed. Ick! What you think improves the breed, I might think ruins it. I think a lot of the problems in the breed today is that people tried to make their mark on the breed, in the process much has been sacrificed.


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## Liesje

selzer said:


> :thumbup: I guess that is my like button.
> 
> Personally, I get pretty scared when everyone is encouraged to breed only to improve the breed. Ick! What you think improves the breed, I might think ruins it. I think a lot of the problems in the breed today is that people tried to make their mark on the breed, in the process much has been sacrificed.


Yeah, plus what does it even mean? Are there people out there right now really "improving" the breed?


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## Oscar101

Thanx for the support. These people are brainwashed by all the shelters out there. The shelters see dogs get put down everyday, so in order for that not to happen they try and tell everyone not to breed their pets. Although this might have some truth to it, it doesn't apply to everyone. I consider myself a responsible person. I'm not here for people to try and tell me what to do. I'm here for information on the breed.


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## 4TheDawgies

Liesje said:


> I disagree that it is irresponsible and wrong to breed for oneself. IMO that's one of the top reasons TO breed. How often on here are breeders lambasted for how many dogs they breed and sell but never hold back and train themselves? My pie-in-the-sky future goal is to earn a SchH3 (and all the other titles I do with my dogs) with a B-HOT dog. I couldn't really care less why other people breed or whether other people want me to breed or not. It's a free country. If you like my type of dog then you can probably get one and if not there are thousands of other breeders out there. I want to produce dogs that *I* feel are strong, healthy, correct, stable, courageous dogs so I can train them and exhibit them myself. The best breeders I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with are the ones that breed for themselves, when they are ready to carry on their bloodline and hold back a dog for their training.
> 
> Come on, on the most basic level *everyone* breeds for _human satisfaction_. That's why we have hundreds of years of domesticated animals, most of whom no longer perform duties required for our livelihood.


Love it! Great post and I totally agree!

Those are exactly my goals. I want to breed dogs that I would be not only proud to call my own, but I actually do call them my own and title them. I have a blast with them and seeing other people enjoy their puppies makes it extra fun.

I hate the argument that a dog in a shelter dies when you breed because that puppy buyer will not rescue a dog. What's wrong with wanting to buy a dog with a proven history, who is less likely to have health problems, who is less likely to have an unstable temperament. I think buying a dog from a breeder to ensure you have a good temperament in a dog is a very reasonable thing to want. Especially when you have children in your home, or are less experienced to handle things like weak nerve, fear aggression, dog aggression, etc.

People who want that are not going to look in a shelter anyways so that dog that dies will die whether I breed it or liesje does.

I don't condone people breeding dogs willy nilly without being responsible. Health tests, temperament tests, proving the dogs ability, studying pedigrees, studying the history is all still very important. If you plan to market them as GSD's that is. I wouldn't be a happy camper if I bought a "GSD" who was a scardy cat you know?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Oscar101 said:


> Thanx for the support. These people are brainwashed by all the shelters out there. The shelters see dogs get put down everyday, so in order for that not to happen they try and tell everyone not to breed their pets. Although this might have some truth to it, it doesn't apply to everyone. I consider myself a responsible person. I'm not here for people to try and tell me what to do. I'm here for information on the breed.


Thanks, but I'm not brainwashed by shelters, I see it first hand. I volunteer and foster and see what dogs aren't saved. The shelter is not brainwashing me to say don't breed your "pet," I can think that for myself. Even just looking at Craigslist, you can see all the people breeding their purebred "pets" just for their personal satisfaction. I am not against breeding, but breeding just to experience it is, in my opinion, wrong.



> I hate the argument that a dog in a shelter dies when you breed because that puppy buyer will not rescue a dog. What's wrong with wanting to buy a dog with a proven history, who is less likely to have health problems, who is less likely to have an unstable temperament. I think buying a dog from a breeder to ensure you have a good temperament in a dog is a very reasonable thing to want. Especially when you have children in your home, or are less experienced to handle things like weak nerve, fear aggression, dog aggression, etc.
> 
> People who want that are not going to look in a shelter anyways so that dog that dies will die whether I breed it or liesje does.


This was absolutely, 100%, not my point about shelter dogs. My point was that there are thousands of people breeding just because- and there are way too many dogs in shelters that result from these types of breedings.


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## 4TheDawgies

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Thanks, but I'm not brainwashed by shelters, I see it first hand. I volunteer and foster and see what dogs aren't saved. The shelter is not brainwashing me to say don't breed your "pet," I can think that for myself. Even just looking at Craigslist, you can see all the people breeding their purebred "pets" just for their personal satisfaction. I am not against breeding, but *breeding just to experience it* is, in my opinion, wrong.


Yup that's why its important to do it responsibly. Neither me nor Liesje said we plan to do it because we want to experience it. Quite the contrary, I have seen her, and I know myself that we have been educating ourselves on the lines, structure, movement. We've been watching dogs in person and in videos and talking to experts. If we do it responsibly, learn as much as we can, health test, title, and have a *goal* in mind, then who are you or anyone else in America to judge and tell us otherwise?

I know for a fact MY dogs will not end up in a shelter because I take every precaution to avoid it. If I found out one of mine did end up in a rescue I would pay to get it out and keep it myself, fix any potential problems that were created, and potentially re home it.

If I take responsibility for my actions then I am not part of that problem. 




I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> This was absolutely, 100%, not my point about shelter dogs. My point was that there are thousands of people breeding just because- and there are way too many dogs in shelters that result from these types of breedings.


I wasn't talking about you or your argument specifically 
I was talking about the argument I stated


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## Oscar101

Anyways if anyone here is a Real breeder I would greatly like to hear YOUR opinio.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

4TheDawgies said:


> Yup that's why its important to do it responsibly. Neither me nor Liesje said we plan to do it because we want to experience it. Quite the contrary, I have seen her, and I know myself that we have been educating ourselves on the lines, structure, movement. We've been watching dogs in person and in videos and talking to experts. If we do it responsibly, learn as much as we can, health test, title, and have a *goal* in mind, *then who are you or anyone else in America to judge and tell us otherwise?
> *
> I know for a fact MY dogs will not end up in a shelter because I take every precaution to avoid it. If I found out one of mine did end up in a rescue I would pay to get it out and keep it myself, fix any potential problems that were created, and potentially re home it.
> 
> If I take responsibility for my actions then I am not part of that problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't talking about you or your argument specifically
> I was talking about the argument I stated


????Being that you nor Liesje are the OP of this post, I was not referring to either of you breeding, I was talking about the OP. I never referred to either of you.
Since I was the only one who brought up shelter dogs, it seemed that it was in reference to my statement.


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## 4TheDawgies

I know I am not the OP. I just like what Liesje said and had to comment on it and wanted to clarify what we meant. And I personally am not necessarily promoting, or encouraging, or supporting the OP breeding. I don't know anything about them so I don't feel its my place to judge. Only to educate. 

I brought it up because your post reminded me of the argument that I was disagreeing with, that's all.


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## 4TheDawgies

Oscar, where did you get your current puppy from? Are they a responsible breeder? If they are maybe you could consider working with them, helping them whelp a litter and learn about raising and training these dogs from them. If they aren't that kind of a breeder, you might want to reconsider breeding your do. If they haven't done the proper research on their lines, health, temperament etc. then just because your puppy ended up OK, doesn't mean the rest of the litter is. Learning the genetic health of the lines you are working with is a huge and long process. 

If your puppy isn't breeding quality and you are determined to breed good dogs that are worth their weight in gold, then just take it as a learning experience and find a breeder you can trust, who is knowledgeable, who will mentor you. This is where you will learn everything. Everyone on the internet is a professional. Which ones actually know what they are talking about it a whole other group of people. 
The knowledgeable ones are usually quiet. We have some phenomenal breeders right here on this board that are a wealth of knowledge. I suggest you do some homework and find a breeder who can mentor you and you will be well on your way to your goals.


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## Andaka

Oscar101 said:


> Anyways if anyone here is a Real breeder I would greatly like to hear YOUR opinio.


I am a real breeder. I have worked hard for years to learn all I can about German Shepherd Dogs, and I am still learning about bloodlines and types and training techniques, etc.  And I have been involved with the dogs for 40+ years.

I have bred several AKC champions, many of whom were also titled in obedience, herding, agility, rally. I believe that training and titling are important because of what it teaches us about our dogs' temperaments. I have also bred 4 generations of OFA certified dogs. While I believe that temperament is most important, health ranks as a close second. I will take back a dog for any reason, and I am in contact with many of the buyers from litters years ago. This is the way I have a picture of what the perfect GSD should look like, act like, and be like, and this is how I breed my dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds

Does anyone feel like sharing how they first got into breeding? Did you start with a mentor, maybe co-owing a dog with another breeder? Maybe spent so much time in the dog world it was just a natural progression? Just curious how you got from point A to B. I use to breed birds but it started by accident and I had to learn as I went.


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## Oscar101

Considering all the info so far, I'm going to go to the GSD rescue and see what I can learn from them.


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## cliffson1

First, find a good German Shepherd book on the breed. Make sure it is a book that has depth so the history of the breed is in it. Some of the better breed books are by Willis, Hart, Strickland/Moses, Lanting, Goldbrecker, and Von Stephanitz.( I own them all) you really only need one at first and read the dang thing.
Second, go to American and German conformation shows,(you can also see obedience, rally, and sometimes agility at some of these shows), go to a or some Sch/IPO trials. Also, see if you can see some police and search & rescue dogs.
Talk to people at these places and observe their dogs, engage these people in dialogue about where their dogs came from and what they do with their dogs.
If you do things this way you will save yourself a lot of heartache. Why???
Because by having read the book, you will have baseline knowledge of what the breed is. What it should look like and how it should act. There are NO personal types of GS. As you visit the different venues you will be to see which ones resonate with what you have read what the breed should be. You will not be taken in by a lot of the BS that many breeders sell to justify what they breed. I can't tell you where you will find good representatives of the breed, but if you read one of those books you will be much better equipped to appreciate the real deal.
If you do the above things and stay true to what you have learned about the breed, you should be able to have a good feel for the breed.
Good Luck!


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## lhczth

Whiteshepherds said:


> Does anyone feel like sharing how they first got into breeding? Did you start with a mentor, maybe co-owing a dog with another breeder? Maybe spent so much time in the dog world it was just a natural progression? Just curious how you got from point A to B. I use to breed birds but it started by accident and I had to learn as I went.


This would make a very good thread of its own instead of being put in the middle of this one.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Personally, I get pretty scared when everyone is encouraged to breed only to improve the breed. Ick! What you think improves the breed, I might think ruins it. I think a lot of the problems in the breed today is that people tried to make their mark on the breed, in the process much has been sacrificed.


You don't think the breed needs improvement? And by that I mean bringing the GSD closer to the standard; what it is supposed to be. Not an insecure bundle of poor nerves, which we see so often in the breed. I would be happy to see someone "make a mark" by bringing back solid temperament.


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## Liesje

I think the phrase "improving the breed" just doesn't carry any weight any more. Tons of breeders advertise that and obviously aren't improving anything other than their own bank accounts. I don't really care how the dogs are marketed, the proof is in the pudding. Can the dogs walk through a downtown parade or firework show while ignoring the crowd and being gentle with kids? Are they courageous and protective? Can they perform demanding physical tasks in all sorts of weather conditions and terrain? These are things that can be observed and sometimes even measured without a breeder insisting they are "improving" the breed. I'm more interested in seeing what the dogs are doing and have accomplished. 

Also one's "improvement" is another person's nightmare. Did the extreme sloping croup or rear angulation really improve show dogs?


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Also one's "improvement" is another person's nightmare. Did the extreme sloping croup or rear angulation really improve show dogs?


How is that "improvement"? Did that bring the GSD closer to the standard?

Of course anyone can say they are "improving" something when they are doing exactly the opposite. When I say "improving", I mean truly improving. Not exaggerating one or two features and throwing temperament out the window, as many show and sport breeders have done.


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## Liesje

But that proves my point. Everyone's idea of "improving" is different so what does that word actually mean? 

Do a Google search....
Let me google that for you

Look at some of the results. I know for a fact that some of those are NOT improving the breed!


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Freestep said:


> How is that "improvement"? Did that bring the GSD closer to the standard?
> 
> Of course anyone can say they are "improving" something when they are doing exactly the opposite. When I say "improving", I mean truly improving. Not exaggerating one or two features and throwing temperament out the window, as many show and sport breeders have done.


This is what I meant as well,* improving by breeding closer to the standard*- not someone's opinion of improving. If you don't have a goal of improving the breed- producing dogs that are great representations of the breed- and are breeding just to experience it with no real goal in mind, in my opinion that's irresponsible.


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## Liesje

History has proven that the standard is open to some pretty interesting "improvements".


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## Freestep

Well, if the meaning of "improvement" has been so twisted and distorted that it is code for "making freakish", then I guess we need to either take the word back, or find another term that doesn't raise everyone's hackles.

"Bringing closer to the standard" is awfully wordy.


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## Liesje

So when you are looking for a breeder or new dog, "improve" is a keyword you are looking for?


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> So when you are looking for a breeder or new dog, "improve" is a keyword you are looking for?


I don't look for keywords. Anyone can say anything. If I think a breeder is truly striving to better the breed (ie, bring it closer to the standard) then I would tend to trust them.


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## Oscar101

So how could you bring a dog's litter closer to the standard?


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## qbchottu

Just curious, what is your dog's pedigree?


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## cliffson1

Like I said Oscar, get one of the books I mentioned and take the time to read. Then you don't have to take anyone's opinion; on what is like what you read in the book....including my opinion. You don't need advanced degrees to get a good idea of what the breed should be.....there are still great dogs and great breeders out there. So you just need to be familiar with the crucial elements.....and I think all of those books will give you insight into these things.
From there you can develop relationships and become a mentee to someone who is trying to preserve the legacy of the breed. These things are necessary to have in place before you think of breeding.....and if you do these things you will understand the importance of this foundation.


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## Liesje

Freestep said:


> Anyone can say anything.


Precisely.

So what one person might call "improving the breed" another might call "breeding to produce good quality dogs to hold back and train". Same thing but one gets a thumbs up and the other is considered selfish....? That question is not directed at you personally but just the general attitude of these threads.


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## Oscar101

Dad- KING THUNDER VON YAMINAE DN23849705 (04-11)
Mom- HAZE BOWMAN DN25821801 (04-11)


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## cliffson1

Oscar, there are no shortcuts in this breed. There are a lot of breeders who have taken shortcuts, and the breed reflects it. I want to make it clear that an ordinary owner does not need to do all the things outlined. BUT you said you wanted to maybe breed....well to be a good breeder takes knowledge and commitment. The breeders of today are very diverse....some breeding GS that are exemplary examples of what the breed should be physically, mentally, and healthwise. So in order to discern this, you need to educate yourself, then observe what is out there. Many breeders are only familiar with the type of GS they are breeding. You want to be knowledgable about reasonable expectations of a working dog if you want to be a respected breeder. So please do your due diligence.


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## Dainerra

Cliffson1, is "The German Shepherd Dog" by Ernest H. Hart the book you are talking about? I love the history of the breed in that book.


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## cliffson1

Yep!!!!


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## Oscar101

Does anyone know any breeders in Denver?


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## Andaka

Mine says by Goldbecker and Hart and is signed by them.


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## Andaka

Here are some clubs for American Show Lines.

Regional Clubs - Southwest


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## Oscar101

I do have one question. How do you know if your dog comes from working or show lines?


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## 4TheDawgies

You study the pedigrees of dogs, individual dogs in those pedigrees, etc.

If you post the pedigree of your puppy we can take a look and let you know right away what you have


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## qbchottu

Oscar101 said:


> Dad- KING THUNDER VON YAMINAE DN23849705 (04-11)
> Mom- HAZE BOWMAN DN25821801 (04-11)


Rolling Thunder Von Yaminae - German Shepherd Dog
Maybe just a close relative?


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## Oscar101

That's his grandfather from his dad's side.


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## 4TheDawgies

qbchottu said:


> Found sire on pdb. No info on dam.
> Rolling Thunder Von Yaminae - German Shepherd Dog


Thank you....

The pedigree concerns me. 
First off we have some heavy line breeding up close (3rd gen) on some dogs who really don't appear to be bringing much to the table other than their pedigrees on paper. The only line breeding worth something on this pedigree are the dogs in the 5th generation. 
Maybe the owners or breeders have not updated the information on the rest of the dogs in the pedigree. But it appears to be quite a few dogs in that pedigree lacking information. You have some back massing on some nice dogs way in the background. But you cannot rely entirely on a pedigree and the individual dog himself is what really counts. 

I don't see any health testing on the dogs in this pedigree, let alone titles, conformation ratings or achievements, not even temperament tests. 

The sire appears to be a mix of quite a few lines. Which also concerns me. I can't seem to find a reason for the breedings that led up to him and why they were bred. I'm not seeing the reason why other than they could. I hope this is not the case. I am far less experienced in studying pedigrees and don't know any of the dogs in this 3 gen ped, so that is my limited knowledge.


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## Oscar101

I know he doesn't have the best pedigree, but I think he looks way better than a lot of these dogs on this site. He plays with my 2 year old all the time and is learning discipline quick. Doesn't this say anything?


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## Jax08

Oscar101 said:


> I know he doesn't have the best pedigree, but I think he looks way better than a lot of these dogs on this site. He plays with my 2 year old all the time and is learning discipline quick. Doesn't this say anything?


No. It does not say anything regarding your dog being breed worthy material. It says you have a nice looking dog who is good with your toddler and learns quickly. I have one of those too and she is NOT breed worthy.

Read Cliff's posts again.


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## marshies

Oscar101 said:


> I know he doesn't have the best pedigree, but I think he looks way better than a lot of these dogs on this site. He plays with my 2 year old all the time and is learning discipline quick. Doesn't this say anything?


It says that you have a great family dog. 

What if as your dog got older, you discovered that he had diseases that would stop him from playing well with your 2 year old? What if he needed hip replacement, or has allergies, or any host of other health issues.

Your dog is a GREAT dog now, but because you're not sure of his pedigree and the health of his parents, the future health of your dog and its puppies are a big question mark for you. There are no indicators that you can use to assess what you think the health of your dog would be like.

When you sell the puppies your dog makes, what would you do if people called you up in 2 years saying their dog bit a child? Or if their dog needs expensive surgery from a genetic problem?

Would you take these dogs back? Offer them a refund? Give them a new puppy?


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## Oscar101

It says he has a good temperament and that he's very smart.


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## Jax08

Oscar101 said:


> It says he has a good temperament and that he's very smart.


Well....German Shepherds aren't supposed to be stupid.


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## Oscar101

Before breeding him I would do a hip test. I saw his dad and mom when i got him and they were in good shape. I will continue to monitor his progress as he gets older. If all goes well and I breed him, then I would be glad to take one of his puppy back. If it has a temperament problem, I could work with the dog by training and bonding with it. If it has a genetic problem then I will never breed Diesel again. I will also offer a refund and will take the dog.


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## Oscar101

Some are.


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## Oscar101

Jax08 said:


> Well....German Shepherds aren't supposed to be stupid.


Some are and i will prove by getting titles for diesel that he will be one of the best trained gsd out there.


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## qbchottu

4TheDawgies said:


> I don't see any health testing on the dogs in this pedigree, let alone titles, conformation ratings or achievements, not even temperament tests.
> 
> The sire appears to be a mix of quite a few lines. Which also concerns me. I can't seem to find a reason for the breedings that led up to him and why they were bred. I'm not seeing the reason why other than they could.


I second this evaluation. I don't think your dog is breed worthy. We all think our dogs are the best, but that doesn't mean we should breed them. We all love our dogs and think they are great, but they don't all need to be bred. I think you should read those books Cliff mentioned and educate yourself before jumping to breed this dog. Find a GSD club and apprentice so you can learn more about this breed before thinking about breeding.


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## Liesje

He sounds like a wonderful dog. I personally would not breed him based on the pedigree. Breeding is SO much more than just combining 2 dogs. Often dogs resemble (both aesthetically or in temperament) their grandparents more than their sire or dam. Your dog's pedigree doesn't mean he's a bad dog and doesn't diminish the fact that he's wonderful with the family, but pedigree *is* important if you want to breed right. I would do what Cliff is suggesting, read the literature and visit clubs and events. Train your dog and learn as much as you can with your dog. My first couple dogs are what taught me what I *really* want in a dog/GSD. If I had jumped into breeding with my first dogs, even with very nice pedigrees and the hip/elbow certs and titles, it would have been way too early.


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## Oscar101

qbchottu said:


> I second this evaluation. I don't think your dog is breed worthy. We all think our dogs are the best, but that doesn't mean we should breed them. We all love our dogs and think they are great, but they don't all need to be bred. I think you should read those books Cliff mentioned and educate yourself before jumping to breed this dog. Find a GSD club and apprentice so you can learn more about this breed before thinking about breeding.


So what do you suggest? Buy another dog that comes from a better pedigree?


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## qbchottu

Oscar101 said:


> I saw his dad and mom when i got him and they were in good shape.


I've seen gorgeous dogs that have terrible genetic disorders that you cannot perceive with the naked eye. Looks alone tell you only so much. Delve into the genetics and the substance, rather than relying on the looks alone. Were the parents health certified? Did the breeder show you hip/elbow clearances?


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## 4TheDawgies

So who would you breed your dog to. Since he is a male, you do realize that the dam owner is the one who has the control. Why should a bitch owner come to you. Why would they come to your dog?

Because he is good with children? If someone bred their female to your male simply because he is good with children and smart, then that is NOT someone you want to support in their breeding program. Yea that sounds all well and good, but thats breeding two unknowns together to potentially create a very LARGE problem.


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## Oscar101

4TheDawgies said:


> So who would you breed your dog to. Since he is a male, you do realize that the dam owner is the one who has the control. Why should a bitch owner come to you. Why would they come to your dog?
> 
> Because he is good with children? If someone bred their female to your male simply because he is good with children and smart, then that is NOT someone you want to support in their breeding program. Yea that sounds all well and good, but thats breeding two unknowns together to potentially create a very LARGE problem.


Well I was going to buy a female gsd too


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## 4TheDawgies

Oscar101 said:


> So what do you suggest? Buy another dog that comes from a better pedigree?


Yes, find a dog from a proven pedigree, of lines that fit your needs best. Study the pedigree until you are blue in the face, and then study it all over again. Learn from the breeder about those lines. Work your dog in something to prove they are true to the standard (working dog), Show the dog to see what judges think about the conformation etc.

If the dog can make it through all of those things and still come out shining, your dog might be breed worthy. 

Then health test your dog, study the pedigrees some more, and then start looking for a mate that suits and compliments that dog well...

Honestly at this stage in the game you should focus more about learning about the breed, history, training, genetics, temperaments, drives, thresholds, and individual dogs and decide what line you like. Then purchase a dog from those lines. Raise it up train it, but do it to learn not to breed. 

If it happens to work out GREAT! If not? start over again with another dog from lines you like and do the same thing over again. Don't breed just to breed, breed because you are passionate about the goals for your breeding program and you understand exactly what you are working with to accomplish what you want.


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## qbchottu

Oscar101 said:


> So what do you suggest? Buy another dog that comes from a better pedigree?


Even if you did buy another dog, would you know what type of pedigree and lines you were looking for? Not to sound rude, but I don't think you know enough about this breed to make a decision on breeding right now. Not making a judgment call on you because I don't either and most people don't.

I, along with multiple others, have suggested that you get some books, read/educate yourself and start going out to some GSD clubs so you can gain first hand knowledge about this breed. Breeding isn't just putting a male and female together. Breeding is an art and takes YEARS of considerable experience to do correctly.


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## qbchottu

Oscar101 said:


> Well I was going to buy a female gsd too


Oh brother....please don't do this. Educate yourself on this breed before you start breeding two family pets together.


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## Oscar101

4TheDawgies said:


> Yes, find a dog from a proven pedigree, of lines that fit your needs best. Study the pedigree until you are blue in the face, and then study it all over again. Learn from the breeder about those lines. Work your dog in something to prove they are true to the standard (working dog), Show the dog to see what judges think about the conformation etc.
> 
> If the dog can make it through all of those things and still come out shining, your dog might be breed worthy.
> 
> Then health test your dog, study the pedigrees some more, and then start looking for a mate that suits and compliments that dog well...
> 
> Honestly at this stage in the game you should focus more about learning about the breed, history, training, genetics, temperaments, drives, thresholds, and individual dogs and decide what line you like. Then purchase a dog from those lines. Raise it up train it, but do it to learn not to breed.
> 
> If it happens to work out GREAT! If not? start over again with another dog from lines you like and do the same thing over again. Don't breed just to breed, breed because you are passionate about the goals for your breeding program and you understand exactly what you are working with to accomplish what you want.



What do u mean by the different lines>?


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## Castlemaid

Take your time. Read everything that has been suggested. Go to all the events mentioned, and get all the titles you mention. Look at it as a journey to make you into an expert. THEN think about getting a female for breeding. Years down the road. Lots of time to get there.


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## Castlemaid

Oscar101 said:


> What do u mean by the different lines>?


Start your journey here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...79460-different-flavors-german-shepherds.html


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## carmspack

visit the thread called "did I choose a bad breeder"


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## 4TheDawgies

Oscar101 said:


> What do u mean by the different lines>?


Well lines are similar to families/races in humans. 

We have African American's, Asians, Irish, Scottish, German, Cuban, Spanish, Mexican etc.

Some of those races are similar to each other, but still very different. But even within those races, the families vary in their "type/look". They all have that familiar similarities.

So same in dogs, except a little bit more "pure" if you will. 

If I bred a massive, straight backed, high in the rear, heavy boned male from say West German Working lines, to a female of say American lines who is extremely angulated in the rear, very light in the bone, female, those puppies would come out extremely inconsistent. 

You would have very awkward looking dogs who wouldn't be balanced and would be even less consistent in the mind. Working lines come with strong nerves, intense and high drives, medium to lower thresholds in those drives. Where as other lines have higher thresholds and lower drives with weak nerves. If you breed a dog with very high drives, to a dog with weak nerve and a puppy comes out with weak nerve, poor temperament, and high drives... you have a very problematic dog on your hands.

When breeding you cannot look at the visuals of the dogs, and even after health testing you cannot rely on the good tests to ensure good puppies. You must first evaluate the dogs and what is under the skin. How their brains work and if breeding two dogs together who are very similar are they going to increase something that is bad, even though they are both good dogs? If you breed a bad dog to a good dog (trying to dumb this down a little) will those dogs be good, or bad? 

A lot goes into breeding dogs, let alone such a complex breed like German Shepherds, and it goes far under the surface. 

This is why studying pedigrees is only a tip off the ice burg. You need to meet dogs, learn how to read dogs, find out what the history of these dogs are and what your dogs pedigree says your dog "should" be. Then look at your dog and see how much they match that.

I look more like my grandmother and her family than I do my own mother. I am half Cuban, and half european mutt.
The Cuban, but specifically the grandmother line of mine was the strongest genetically when all of the genetics came into play with sperm hit egg. 

So looking at the parents alone is NOT sufficient in making decisions when matching dogs.

follow my drift?


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## onyx'girl

How is your temperament? Cuban or the Euro Mutt influence?


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## Oscar101

4TheDawgies said:


> Well lines are similar to families/races in humans.
> 
> We have African American's, Asians, Irish, Scottish, German, Cuban, Spanish, Mexican etc.
> 
> Some of those races are similar to each other, but still very different. But even within those races, the families vary in their "type/look". They all have that familiar similarities.
> 
> So same in dogs, except a little bit more "pure" if you will.
> 
> If I bred a massive, straight backed, high in the rear, heavy boned male from say West German Working lines, to a female of say American lines who is extremely angulated in the rear, very light in the bone, female, those puppies would come out extremely inconsistent.
> 
> You would have very awkward looking dogs who wouldn't be balanced and would be even less consistent in the mind. Working lines come with strong nerves, intense and high drives, medium to lower thresholds in those drives. Where as other lines have higher thresholds and lower drives with weak nerves. If you breed a dog with very high drives, to a dog with weak nerve and a puppy comes out with weak nerve, poor temperament, and high drives... you have a very problematic dog on your hands.
> 
> When breeding you cannot look at the visuals of the dogs, and even after health testing you cannot rely on the good tests to ensure good puppies. You must first evaluate the dogs and what is under the skin. How their brains work and if breeding two dogs together who are very similar are they going to increase something that is bad, even though they are both good dogs? If you breed a bad dog to a good dog (trying to dumb this down a little) will those dogs be good, or bad?
> 
> A lot goes into breeding dogs, let alone such a complex breed like German Shepherds, and it goes far under the surface.
> 
> This is why studying pedigrees is only a tip off the ice burg. You need to meet dogs, learn how to read dogs, find out what the history of these dogs are and what your dogs pedigree says your dog "should" be. Then look at your dog and see how much they match that.
> 
> I look more like my grandmother and her family than I do my own mother. I am half Cuban, and half european mutt.
> The Cuban, but specifically the grandmother line of mine was the strongest genetically when all of the genetics came into play with sperm hit egg.
> 
> So looking at the parents alone is NOT sufficient in making decisions when matching dogs.
> 
> follow my drift?


Makes sense. I need to learn more about these different lines. how do you know so much?


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## qbchottu

By doing what we've been recommending 

Read the books, find a mentor, go to GSD events/shows/trials and LEARN as much as you can before considering breeding...
This takes YEARS of hard work and dedication.


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## 4TheDawgies

onyx'girl said:


> How is your temperament? Cuban or the Euro Mutt influence?


Lmao well to be honest and also set another example of the inner things at play:
I have the fiery Latina attitude, the rational thinking and intelligence side of my European mutt.


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## 4TheDawgies

qbchottu said:


> By doing what we've been recommending
> 
> Read the books, find a mentor, go to GSD events/shows/trials and LEARN as much as you can before considering breeding...
> This takes YEARS of hard work and dedication.


Exactly! I have a mentor breeder as well as many people in the working dog clubs I respect and learn from. 

My knowledge is IMO nothing compared to the people I am learning from and some of the people on this board.


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## cliffson1

Remember, no shortcuts. I know the lines your dog is from.....your dog doesn't have bad genetics in the pedigree. Still, that is good for ownership purposes, but is not sufficient for breeding. See if you can find a local sch club and see if you can join. Your dog has the genetics to do the sport, still the dog has to have the health and temperament to do the work. You see every dog in a litter is not breed worthy, even though the genetics may be good. This is why you have to demonstrate through the dog's health clearances and training that the dog is breed worthy. Even after that if all things go well, your male won't be compatible to any old female. So then you have to make compatible breeding decisions. 
What concerns me is you are asking questions on getting there, when you have work to do before even considering breeding. Your dog might not have satisfactory hips, or elbows, for instance and would make breeding him academic. 
Get in a club or organization and train your dog, get the health checks at appropriate time, and get a mentor that you can talk to for next couple years.
Good Luck


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## Oscar101

cliffson1 said:


> Remember, no shortcuts. I know the lines your dog is from.....your dog doesn't have bad genetics in the pedigree. Still, that is good for ownership purposes, but is not sufficient for breeding. See if you can find a local sch club and see if you can join. Your dog has the genetics to do the sport, still the dog has to have the health and temperament to do the work. You see every dog in a litter is not breed worthy, even though the genetics may be good. This is why you have to demonstrate through the dog's health clearances and training that the dog is breed worthy. Even after that if all things go well, your male won't be compatible to any old female. So then you have to make compatible breeding decisions.
> What concerns me is you are asking questions on getting there, when you have work to do before even considering breeding. Your dog might not have satisfactory hips, or elbows, for instance and would make breeding him academic.
> Get in a club or organization and train your dog, get the health checks at appropriate time, and get a mentor that you can talk to for next couple years.
> Good Luck



Do you think if I GET Diesel Some titles he could one day be breed worthy?


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## DunRingill

Lakewood Co.....hmmm the GSDCA National Specialty is out your way in October. You can watch GSDs doing obedience, rally, agility, tracking, herding, and conformation. Or if you're really motivated you could get your dog ready and show!


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## Liesje

Oscar101 said:


> So what do you suggest? Buy another dog that comes from a better pedigree?


Not yet. Do what Cliff is suggesting. I would not go looking to buy a breeding dog without knowing what the different lines are, for starters.


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## carmspack

has there ever been a post with Diesel's picture 

A National Specialty is good to watch , but not the place for an utter novice to enter for show -- 

plus Specialty calls for a different type of conformation than an all-breed judge 

been there , done that , had a couple of ROM's that I bred and genetics used for animals competing in show , such as SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog 

(I owned ****** and Vesta goes back to Ambergris UD (my first litter)

let's have a look at the boy


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## qbchottu

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/185810-diesel-4-months.html


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## Mrs.K

Oscar, 

I grew up in a family of very knowledgeable GSD breeders, trainers, handlers. Combined my parents have over 80 years worth of experience with the west German working line German Shepherd. I grew up around some of the Worlds best working stock (and it's not an exaggeration), I know a lot of about German Shepherds and yet I know NOTHING! 

I know what a good GSD should look and act like. I know a lot about lines because I've been listening and watching all my life but there are a lot of things I don't know. 

Despite all the foundation I have, despite the good dogs I have that actually are breedworthy, come from excellent lines, I don't breed them. Why? One girl has a soft ear and it's coming from a dog that is generations back in her Pedigree and she's got a Pedigree like so many others out there. She is heavily inbred and honestly, there are better dogs out there that could contribute. 

My male is the last male out of our kennel, that remains in the family. He's got the SV A-Stamp, NO TITLES, a shaky history since he went through some very bad hands and had to recover from the turmoil. My dad knows he's got it. I know he's got it but others don't. He's eight years old now. I could breed him to continue the line. But whats the point? There are other dogs out there. It's true, his sire (I believe) had only two litters. But that sire has brothers and sisters, the line is not a line that will die anytime soon. 

The only one of my dogs I would breed, and which I probably will, is my other female that was handpicked for me. 

She is absolutely and truly breedworthy, even without titles. It's one of those dogs you look at and everyone can see it. 

However, I won't do it anytime soon because there is so much I, myself have to learn before I have my very own first litter and right now I'm not in the Situation to actually make a decision to have a litter. My own future is somewhat shaky and there are things that have to be figured out first. 

Take a very good, critical look at yourself, take a good look at your dog. Do we really need another, so-la-la dog that's producing puppies, out there? 

Why do you want to breed? What is the reason for you to breed? Is it because of your own ego, because you want to better the breed? 

My father wants me to continue but I know that it will be impossible to live up to his legacy. I will never even come close to it. 

If I do breed my girl it's because my girls breeder wants to have a litter out of her but for that I do need to get her titled, breed survey'd under the German SV rules, since her breeder is in Germany. 
Her bloodline is very important to him and he breeds primarily for the German Police. 

Other than that, personally, even though I have a really good foundation with the breed, I know enough to know nothing at all. 

All I do know is that there are so many breeders out there. If you have 13 buyers lined up, that would actually take your puppies, go ahead and see how many will actually still be there to take onto one of those pups. 

You don't even know the difference between show and working line. 

I do not want to discourage you but you have a long, very long way ahead of you. Everyone starts somewhere BUT it takes years and years of experience. 

Do you know how many litters you have to breed to actually get that one special dog that will go down in history? 

Even more, do you know how many litters it takes to breed ONE, just ONE decent brood bitch? Or that one litter where every single dog is just over the top and through and through for their producing ability. That was our O litter. That litter was THAT ONE litter every breeder wants to have, that one litter people talk about even generations after the dog is long gone. 

Breeding isn't easy. There is a heck of a lot of competition out there. By titling you want to proof that your dog is the best trained dog in the world? That doesn't mean that your dog will produce! 

You can have a world champion, just because the dog is world champion doesn't mean he's a good producer. 

Just make sure you breed for the right reasons, if you breed at all!


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## Oscar101

carmspack said:


> has there ever been a post with diesel's picture
> 
> a national specialty is good to watch , but not the place for an utter novice to enter for show --
> 
> plus specialty calls for a different type of conformation than an all-breed judge
> 
> been there , done that , had a couple of rom's that i bred and genetics used for animals competing in show , such as sel can & am ch winning ways chimo - german shepherd dog
> 
> (i owned ****** and vesta goes back to ambergris ud (my first litter)
> 
> let's have a look at the boy


\

this is him


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## martemchik

So what about him makes you think he looks better than "most of the dogs on this site?" What exactly about his conformation is so great that it is clearly better than all of our other dogs. You're basing your assessment of his temperament on how he acts at 4 months...lets see what happens when he grows up. All of our dogs learned quick, they all got along with everything, and are all the smartest dogs in the world, doesn't mean that they should be bred.

I'm not really going to get into what I see wrong in your dog, as I don't really want to make you think I'm just putting him down so you won't breed him, but he's just an American pet GSD to me. I'm sure he's a great dog, but wait until he's fully trained and you can trial him until you make any final decisions on how great he is compared to the rest of the GSDs up there.


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## Jack's Dad

That was a great post IMO Mrs. K. .:thumbup:


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## Oscar101

martemchik said:


> So what about him makes you think he looks better than "most of the dogs on this site?" What exactly about his conformation is so great that it is clearly better than all of our other dogs. You're basing your assessment of his temperament on how he acts at 4 months...lets see what happens when he grows up. All of our dogs learned quick, they all got along with everything, and are all the smartest dogs in the world, doesn't mean that they should be bred.
> 
> I'm not really going to get into what I see wrong in your dog, as I don't really want to make you think I'm just putting him down so you won't breed him, but he's just an American pet GSD to me. I'm sure he's a great dog, but wait until he's fully trained and you can trial him until you make any final decisions on how great he is compared to the rest of the GSDs up there.



Your dog is way too scroungy. He doesn't even look like a GSD.


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## Jack's Dad

Oscar:

You had some very knowledgeable people take their time to give you very good advice and the best you can come up with is to insult someones dog.

You don't know the difference between the lines and you are insulting people.
Sad is all I can say.


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## 4TheDawgies

I agree this thread is just infuriating that you have the nerve to ask for help, insult people who volunteer and go out of their way to give you free help, and you resort to this....


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## Castlemaid

Oscar, please read the board rules:
German Shepherd Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Administrator Messages

Insulting and attacking members will result in official warnings. Get enough warnings and you get banned. I'd really love to see you stay and learn, and watch your Diesel grow up and start racking up titles. 

You might be overwhelmed right now with all the info that is being given, but they are to help you become a better GSD person, even if at times it is not what you want to hear. Eventually it will all come together for you and make a lot of sense, and you'll be able to make appropriate breeding decisions. So treat people as you would like to be treated yourself, with respect.


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## Castlemaid

I think we are dealing with a young person. Let's keep that in mind.


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## DunRingill

carmspack said:


> has there ever been a post with Diesel's picture
> 
> A National Specialty is good to watch , but not the place for an utter novice to enter for show --
> 
> plus Specialty calls for a different type of conformation than an all-breed judge


I didn't mean for him to show in conformation.....but there's Rally, and herding instinct testing, stuff like that.


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## Oscar101

Sorry didn't mean to be insensitive. Just the Army coming out in me. Try not to let things get to me.


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## carmspack

thanks for the pictures - so far - no , not a Specialty show entry 

contact your AKC and find the local Sanction matches , which are practice sessions -- no points awarded -- 
there you will find newbie handlers , and professional handlers with newbie pups getting them to learn the ropes of the ring 
the dog does appear to be somewhat east-west but that could be his age - 
this , by Linda Shaw , covers the GSD front German Shepherd Dog forequarter, GSD forequarter, German shepherd shoulder, GSD shoulder
also he is currently higher over the loin . Croup appears short and steep.
Rear angulation , not enough, needs greater length of femur and tibia THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG










Click this bar to view the full image.



















Click this bar to view the full image.








from Fred Lanting 
what a beautiful gait looks like 








Click this bar to view the full image.









this is an "american dog"
http://www.vonlordfandor.de/pics/gro...enschanzen.jpg this is an East German (working herding dog) 
does not get much better than this 

For Specialty he would be faulted for his pigment , which will reduce in portions of the black that he has . He is lacking rich pigment , looks like lots of brights - pale , washed out. 

And then there is character and temperament to look at .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com 















    
carmspackView Public ProfileSend a private message to carmspackFind More Posts by carmspackAdd carmspack to Your Contacts

​


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## Mrs.K

Oscar101 said:


> Sorry didn't mean to be insensitive. Just the Army coming out in me. Try not to let things get to me.


... seriously? :rofl:

That has got to be one of the best excuses yet. There is a lot of military folk on here. At least own it!


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## Oscar101

Mrs.K said:


> ... seriously? :rofl:
> 
> That has got to be one of the best excuses yet. There is a lot of military folk on here. At least own it!


whatever u say


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## Freestep

Oscar, you've gotten a LOT of good advice and believe me, people are being very, very nice to you compared to how most "I want to breed my dog" threads go. No one has insulted you or your dog, yet you insult others? NOT a good way to make friends and get meaningful advice. In order to learn about breeding and doing it the RIGHT way, you really need a mentor, and insulting others is NOT the way to get a good mentor. The breeder community is huge, but the good breeders are fairly tight with each other, and word of mouth gets around fast. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Remember, you want to do this the RIGHT way, and you have a long, long way to go before you have enough knowledge to even think about breeding. It's in your best interest to cultivate a bit of humility.


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## Konotashi

I must admit, I'm a bit disappointed in the way this thread went. Not with all of the advice given, but the fact that you, Oscar, seem so dead-set on breeding him, regardless of what everyone says.
Use him as a learning opportunity. Go out and get titles on him. Work him in SchH, if he even has the temperament/nerve/drive for it. LEARN from him. See what qualities you like in him, and which ones you would like to have improve. This could help you pick a better breeder, or breeding quality dog in the (distant) future.

And just wanted to add... maybe the GSD in the avatar looks the way it does because in that pic, he's a puppy....


----------



## Jax08

martemchik said:


> So what about him makes you think he looks better than "most of the dogs on this site?"





Oscar101 said:


> Your dog is way too scroungy. He doesn't even look like a GSD.












Martemchik - had to pull this pic from your album!!!

Oscar - THIS dog looks scroungy and not like a GSD??

First, this dog is young in this picture. You can tell that he hasn't grown into his ears yet. That also goes for the avatar picture.

Second, this dog is a sable. Sables, bi-colors, blacks are typically working line dogs. Red and blacks are typically German show line dogs. Tan and black are typically American show line.

Your comment on Martemchik's dog alone tells us how much you need to learn.

Cliff gave you undeniably valuable advice. There are no short cuts. Nobody on this board can tell you that your dog is breed worthy or will be breed worthy with some titles without seeing the dog. Cliff's opinion on his pedigree says alot though! If you get out there, work your dog and get around a higher level of the breed, you will see for yourself what makes a dog breed worthy or not.


----------



## Konotashi

Jax08 said:


> Martemchik - had to pull this pic from your album!!!
> 
> Oscar - THIS dog looks scroungy and not like a GSD??
> 
> First, this dog is young in this picture. You can tell that he hasn't grown into his ears yet. That also goes for the avatar picture.
> 
> Second, this dog is a sable. Sables, bi-colors, blacks are typically working line dogs. Red and blacks are typically German show line dogs. Tan and black are typically American show line.
> 
> *Your comment on Martemchik's dog alone tells us how much you need to learn.*


:thumbup: 
*Like*
Thank you.


----------



## qbchottu

Konotashi said:


> I must admit, I'm a bit disappointed in the way this thread went. Not with all of the advice given, but the fact that you, Oscar, seem so dead-set on breeding him, regardless of what everyone says.


Agreed. Very worrisome trend in all of these "I want to be a breeder" threads.

Oscar, these threads are usually merciless. Experts with decades invested in this breed have chimed in and offered advice. Strangers have gone out of their way to help point you in the right direction. Have an open mind and educate yourself. Personal retaliations aren't warranted. You were given an honest critique about your dog. Judges, trainers, breeders and GSD people out there are even more brutal. You need a thick skin if you want to show/work your dog.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

qbchottu said:


> You need a thick skin if you want to show/work your dog.


Amen to that  It seems whenever I think I have it all figured out someone will put me in my place with an honest critique of my skills as a handler - hey as long as it's constructive I welcome it and learn from it but a lot of people get offended and drop off (or worse, think they know better than everyone else and keeps on with what they were doing)


----------



## qbchottu

Yep. People have said HORRIBLE things to me about my dogs, my training, my handling, and my knowledge. Just really terrible and insensitive things that really did hurt my feelings at the time. Then there are people that give honest and constructive critiques which help me improve for next time. You need to be VERY patient, diplomatic and mature if you want to get into competitive showing/sports. 

The critique given to you was extremely civil and kind. If you asked someone on another popular GSD website to critique your dog for example, they definitely wouldn't have been anywhere as kind. Take this information and use it to improve. Shutting down and sticking to your steadfast opinions isn't a good way to evolve and learn.


----------



## LoveEcho

When you were asked what makes you think your dog was better looking, it was a genuine question-- as in, "what do you see in his conformation that you like and think is true to breed?" You've been given invaluable advice on this thread that, if followed, would put you on the (very long) path to achieving your goal. All anyone has said is your first dog is not the place to start with breeding, it's the place to start with getting to know the breed. Not one single thing has warranted insulting someone's dog. This is a dog forum...insulting the dog is worse than insulting the person. 


Oh, and another thing...

Do not EVER blame being rude on being in the military.


----------



## Oscar101

Wow


----------



## Mrs.K

Welcome to the world of German Shepherds. This ain't nothing!


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Oscar101 said:


> Wow


care to elaborate? lol


----------



## Sunflowers

Castlemaid said:


> I think we are dealing with a young person. Let's keep that in mind.


Yep.


----------



## Sunflowers

Oscar101 said:


> Sorry didn't mean to be insensitive. Just the Army coming out in me. Try not to let things get to me.


I think the Army would beg to differ.


----------



## Oscar101

And I'm the one that can't take criticism


----------



## DianaM

Oscar, you have been given the information necessary to become a great breeder. You can either ignore the advice given, choose willful ignorance, and churn out mediocre dogs that will be forgotten after the first or second litter or destined to produce lesser dogs over time, or you can realize that the advice you were given has been hard won over years of effort, failures, and successes. 

If you want to be called mature and intelligent, you will know when to accept you have lots to learn and you will understand it is time to stop talking and start LISTENING. The snide comments make me wonder what exactly you learned in the military and I do believe a lot of military personnel would take offense to the condescending attitude. 

We have all had hopes and ideas that were promptly shot down in the face of experience. Those who succeed step back and learn the rules so they learn how they can work within the rules and also when and how to bend/break the rules for greatness. This board can offer a doctorate-level education on the breed for free; all you need to do is listen! 

Your choice. Choose a path to failure or success.


----------



## Jax08

and with Diana's comment...end of thread.


----------



## selzer

Oscar101 said:


> So what do you suggest? Buy another dog that comes from a better pedigree?


Sorry if this has been said, I only read this far at this point. 

Not yet. Don't buy another dog yet. Your puppy is young and you have a LOT to learn. Get the books that Cliff mentioned. I think I have them all too. Start with one and read it though. 

Join a GSD club. Join a training club. Make your boy the best trained dog out there, but keep your eyes open all along the way. Spend 2-3 years just watching other GSDs. Put your dog in every venue close to you, one after another master them all with your dog, and keep your eyes wide open. 

Look at the different lines, working, German Show, American show. Form opinions about what you like and what you dislike about each of them. Learn the standard and compare the standard to dogs you like and dogs you dislike -- no need to tell others where their dog lacks or where it meets the bill. Just carefully look. 

Look at what is winning. Mark what you like and what you dislike about what is winning. Try hard not to measure against what your dog is, but against what you have read and learned about the standard. 

The dogs you would like to own, find out their pedigrees, and look at them carefully. Try to find the dogs and kennel names behind the dogs you would like to own.

After 2-3 years, you will have a VERY nice dog, and a knowledge base to start on. 

The absolute AWESOME news is, that you started with a dog. If you want to breed dogs, a dog is not where you want to begin. You want to begin your breeding program with the best bitch that you can find, and you can't find her until you know a lot more about what you like and what you dislike in the breed. And you can't know that until you understand a lot more about the breed. Your dog is your window into the dog world, but he does not need to be the doorway into breeding. 

It may be best to buy a bitch full grown. Then you will be able to buy a bitch who has good temperament, structure, hips and elbows, etc. 

But a dog, a dog is not necessary, in fact, it really can be the mark of a breeder who really doesn't know what they are doing. Can be. Some excellent breeders have dogs, and use their dogs, but they also use outside dogs, because you really want to match the dog to the bitch you have. And unless you buy a bitch full grown that will be the perfect match to your dog, the chances that your dog, any dog owned by the bitch's owners are the best match for that bitch are hundreds, prehaps thousands to one.

People still have to own stud dogs. But a dog can sire many litters in a year, a bitch 1-2. So by paying a stud fee, you can get the best dog for your breeding, with all the little ducks in a row: titles, health certificates, temperament, structure, etc, for less money than it will cost you to provide board, training, titling, certifications on a dog to keep him.

Your dog will not be idle though. Your dog can signify for you when your bitch is coming into season, when she is ready to breed, etc. And your dog will continue to teach you everything you need to know to be an expert for your customers. 

Good luck. I will go back and read the rest now.


----------



## fastdogs

These threads are very informative for lurkers like myself, probably we learn more than the OPs, who often have already decided something and are just looking for validation.
20 years in the army here. First time I've seen it used as an excuse for juvenile behavior..
vickie


----------



## 4TheDawgies

fastdogs said:


> These threads are very informative for lurkers like myself, probably we learn more than the OPs, who often have already decided something and are just looking for validation.
> 20 years in the army here. First time I've seen it used as an excuse for juvenile behavior..
> vickie


and this is exactly what keeps us motivated to keep educating. Thanks for sharing that with us Vickie.


----------



## Oscar101

selzer said:


> Sorry if this has been said, I only read this far at this point.
> 
> Not yet. Don't buy another dog yet. Your puppy is young and you have a LOT to learn. Get the books that Cliff mentioned. I think I have them all too. Start with one and read it though.
> 
> Join a GSD club. Join a training club. Make your boy the best trained dog out there, but keep your eyes open all along the way. Spend 2-3 years just watching other GSDs. Put your dog in every venue close to you, one after another master them all with your dog, and keep your eyes wide open.
> 
> Look at the different lines, working, German Show, American show. Form opinions about what you like and what you dislike about each of them. Learn the standard and compare the standard to dogs you like and dogs you dislike -- no need to tell others where their dog lacks or where it meets the bill. Just carefully look.
> 
> Look at what is winning. Mark what you like and what you dislike about what is winning. Try hard not to measure against what your dog is, but against what you have read and learned about the standard.
> 
> The dogs you would like to own, find out their pedigrees, and look at them carefully. Try to find the dogs and kennel names behind the dogs you would like to own.
> 
> After 2-3 years, you will have a VERY nice dog, and a knowledge base to start on.
> 
> The absolute AWESOME news is, that you started with a dog. If you want to breed dogs, a dog is not where you want to begin. You want to begin your breeding program with the best bitch that you can find, and you can't find her until you know a lot more about what you like and what you dislike in the breed. And you can't know that until you understand a lot more about the breed. Your dog is your window into the dog world, but he does not need to be the doorway into breeding.
> 
> It may be best to buy a bitch full grown. Then you will be able to buy a bitch who has good temperament, structure, hips and elbows, etc.
> 
> But a dog, a dog is not necessary, in fact, it really can be the mark of a breeder who really doesn't know what they are doing. Can be. Some excellent breeders have dogs, and use their dogs, but they also use outside dogs, because you really want to match the dog to the bitch you have. And unless you buy a bitch full grown that will be the perfect match to your dog, the chances that your dog, any dog owned by the bitch's owners are the best match for that bitch are hundreds, prehaps thousands to one.
> 
> People still have to own stud dogs. But a dog can sire many litters in a year, a bitch 1-2. So by paying a stud fee, you can get the best dog for your breeding, with all the little ducks in a row: titles, health certificates, temperament, structure, etc, for less money than it will cost you to provide board, training, titling, certifications on a dog to keep him.
> 
> Your dog will not be idle though. Your dog can signify for you when your bitch is coming into season, when she is ready to breed, etc. And your dog will continue to teach you everything you need to know to be an expert for your customers.
> 
> Good luck. I will go back and read the rest now.


Thanks to everyone for your advice.


----------



## martemchik

I've missed what's happened since my last post...what's going on?!?!

Lol


----------



## martemchik

Oscar, here's a recent thread by me about my "scroungy" looking dog.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/181563-lets-see-what-you-guys-think.html

Let me know what you think now.

I was once like you, and thought that it wouldn't be a problem to breed my dog. I didn't grow up in the dog world and didn't understand why people were so worried about breeding a dog. I mean, why not make a $1000 stud fee, I'm $1000 richer, the world is 10 puppies richer, 10 families are happier, what can be wrong with that? Then you figure out how many studs there are in this world, how many unwanted pups there are in this world (even purebred), and for me it was clear that my pocket being $1000 heavier doesn't outweigh the fact that even one of those puppies might end up in a shelter somewhere.

Now figuring all this out, I went the route that everyone here is talking about. I started to train, I started to trial, and I'm working on getting my dog titled and get him out there so that people can see him and maybe think about breeding to him. It's not really that important to me, I don't care about having one of his off-spring as nothing in this world will ever compare to him (in my eyes) and I'd rather not ever have the thought in my head of "your father wasn't like this." It's easier to go and find the puppy I'd want from someone that knows what they're doing, rather than bank on my dog, mixing with some bitch, and making a puppy that I'd want.

I'm not saying your dog is already not "breedworthy" maybe one day he will be, but let him grow up, let yourself figure out his temperament, what he's like, what problems/issues he might have. Let others see it, let people that aren't biased talk about your dog and tell you things about him. Don't ever feel bad, NOT A SINGLE DOG IS PERFECT, even Sieger champions have flaws, AKC Grand Victors have flaws, every dog has flaws. Maybe your dog will end up having something to offer the GSD world, but at this point, you're not the person to make that assessment, let it be made by people that have been doing it for 30, 40, 50 years, and learn from them, maybe in a few years you will understand exactly what a GSD should be (your educated interpretation of it) and then you can make an assessment yourself on what to breed.


----------



## Oscar101

Is that the same dog? He looks way different


----------



## Xeph

Ayup.

Dogs are weird y'know...changing as they grow up.

My puppy at 5 months doesn't look like he did at 13 weeks, nor does my male at 8 years look like he did at 8 months.

13 weeks









5 months









Strauss at like, a year old (LOL)









Strauss at 8 years old









Mirada at 10 weeks









Mirada at 2 years


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## rooandtree

Xeph....those are some beautiful dogs!!!


----------



## martemchik

Oscar101 said:


> Is that the same dog? He looks way different


Exactly why you need to wait to figure out what your dog is going to be like.

You looked at a picture of my dog at about 6 months old. These new ones were taken when he was about 1 month and 8 months old. He makes your dog look like A PUPPY! Lol.

It takes years of experience to be able to evaluate a puppy (as a breeder) to understand how its going to grow and what its going to look like when it gets older, and even then many breeders have biases (they're looking at dogs they've produced). I'd have no idea how to look at a 2 month old pup and see what its going to look like when it fully develops and if it will be a conforming dog. Most people will therefore try to breed either champion dogs in the AKC ring or V rated dogs in the sieger system because that increases the chances that the puppies will be the same...but even in those liters not all dogs are show quality or perfectly conforming to the standard. Does your dog have any of those in his lines? Or have you been to a club, or a show, and had someone with experience evaluate your dog? Those people have amazing insights into things that us regular folk would never see or understand.

Think of it this way...no one here will ever tell you that you have an ugly dog, all GSDs are absolutely stunning animals and they are all beautiful in their own way. I can say that I have never once seen a GSD that I was disgusted by just based on their look. Now, that is not to say I haven't seen dogs that disgust me, like a 32" at the withers GSD, or many GSDs that walk on their rear hocks, GSDs that are in shape and 120+ lbs. But these are the things I have learned after studying the standard and understanding it a little bit more than the regular person out on the street.


----------



## Emoore

martemchik said:


> Think of it this way...no one here will ever tell you that you have an ugly dog,


Oscar will.


----------



## Jax08

:rofl:


----------



## qbchottu

I would love to see a breakdown of Oscar's word count vs. the responders. He's definitely a man of few words 

Good post Vickie. I hope experienced breeders/trainers know that their knowledge is being absorbed and used.


----------



## LoveEcho

martemchik said:


> Exactly why you need to wait to figure out what your dog is going to be like.
> 
> You looked at a picture of my dog at about 6 months old. These new ones were taken when he was about 1 month and 8 months old. He makes your dog look like A PUPPY! Lol.
> 
> It takes years of experience to be able to evaluate a puppy (as a breeder) to understand how its going to grow and what its going to look like when it gets older, and even then many breeders have biases (they're looking at dogs they've produced). I'd have no idea how to look at a 2 month old pup and see what its going to look like when it fully develops and if it will be a conforming dog. Most people will therefore try to breed either champion dogs in the AKC ring or V rated dogs in the sieger system because that increases the chances that the puppies will be the same...but even in those liters not all dogs are show quality or perfectly conforming to the standard. Does your dog have any of those in his lines? Or have you been to a club, or a show, and had someone with experience evaluate your dog? Those people have amazing insights into things that us regular folk would never see or understand.
> 
> Think of it this way...no one here will ever tell you that you have an ugly dog, all GSDs are absolutely stunning animals and they are all beautiful in their own way. I can say that I have never once seen a GSD that I was disgusted by just based on their look.* Now, that is not to say I haven't seen dogs that disgust me, like a 32" at the withers GSD, *or many GSDs that walk on their rear hocks, GSDs that are in shape and 120+ lbs. But these are the things I have learned after studying the standard and understanding it a little bit more than the regular person out on the street.



I'll give you a PRIME example of exactly why the parent's "looks" mean nothing... my guy's sire and dam were both on the smaller side of breed standard, as were their parents. However, he at 2 yrs is 31" at the withers.  Someone fooled around with a giraffe...


----------



## martemchik

LoveEcho said:


> I'll give you a PRIME example of exactly why the parent's "looks" mean nothing... my guy's sire and dam were both on the smaller side of breed standard, as were their parents. However, he at 2 yrs is 31" at the withers.  Someone fooled around with a giraffe...


Lol...yeah it happens, but what about the rest of his liter? The parents just increase odds of getting something that will be what you want, its never a guarantee. Gotta love genetics and living things.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Xeph said:


> Ayup.
> 
> Mirada at 10 weeks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mirada at 2 years


Wow I loved all your dogs but you better hide this one from me before I grab her


----------



## LoveEcho

LoveEcho said:


> I'll give you a PRIME example of exactly why the parent's "looks" mean nothing... my guy's sire and dam were both on the smaller side of breed standard, as were their parents. However, he at 2 yrs is 31" at the withers.  Someone fooled around with a giraffe...


There are a couple in the litter that are a little on the taller side, but not nearly to that extent. Most are still fairly small. Echo was actually the smallest puppy by far...funny how all of that works. At least he's only 75 lbs....


----------



## martemchik

31" and only 75 lbs?!?!? Are you sure you measured correctly? Mine is 25.5" and 85 lbs lol, and he's in perfect shape...that's either some light bone or light muscle on your boy.


----------



## Xeph

What she said, lol. Strauss is 27" and weighs 87 lbs even


----------



## LoveEcho

He's all leg, I'm not kidding. This weight was taken a bit ago, so I got him on the scale this morning and he's clocking in at 82... but he is gangly as all get-out. I was concerned he was underweight but the vet assured me he's fine. :shrug: If you look at him, he looks disproportionately tall compared to body mass...:thinking:


----------



## Oscar101

Decided that I am gonna breed my dog.


----------



## Wolfgeist

Oscar101 said:


> Decided that I am gonna breed my dog.


Do you plan on titling your dog and getting his hips and elbows certified? Or are you just going to throw your dog with another and hope for the best?


----------



## Beau

opcorn:


----------



## Oscar101

Wild Wolf said:


> Do you plan on titling your dog and getting his hips and elbows certified? Or are you just going to throw your dog with another and hope for the best?



i know theres work in to breeding dogs. u dont just hope for the best.


----------



## onyx'girl

Oscar101....why? I hope you put thought into the future...where these pups will end up if their temperament or health is not what you expected? Are you going to be responsible for them? Hips and elbows are just the little things...what about the other reasons for breeding an outstanding GSD?

I am dealing with a dog with problems on both and if I wasn't committed to her, she'd have ended up on CL, dumped at a shelter or euthed due to a bite history. Her breeder would have taken her back, but she would have ended up re-homed to who knows who, or what. Not many people will take on a FA environmentally allergic adult dog that is also very dominant.

Lucky for her I will deal with her issues, yet she still deals with chronic ear infections, and anxiety daily.

Look at all the things that may go right/ wrong before you take on the responsibility of bringing more pups into this world. Do you understand pedigrees? Matching those to bring out the best? 
If Onyx's breeder had her ducks in a row before breeding, maybe Onyx would have a better life.
I have a gorgeous male that could add to the gene pool, but he is just one of many, many gorgeous males.....don't take this lightly or do it because of this thread to prove yourself right. Please.


----------



## Wolfgeist

Oscar101 said:


> i know theres work in to breeding dogs. u dont just hope for the best.


Okay.


----------



## selzer

Are we talking about Diesel, who has been hit by a car because someone left the gate open, and is seriously injured, but recovering?


----------



## Oscar101

selzer said:


> Are we talking about Diesel, who has been hit by a car because someone left the gate open, and is seriously injured, but recovering?


yup hes doing a lot better. He can run, jump ,and do anything. hes about to be 6 months, so he still has a while before mating.


----------



## marbury

On this thread (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/186719-my-poor-diesel.html) you stated that you don't have money for a necessary operation, then that you wouldn't breed him. 
7/18: "yea i did want to breed him but not no more."

I'd ask around to some breeders for a cost break-down of the whole breeding process. If you're not in a financial position to provide necessary surgery for your dog perhaps putting the breeding aspirations on the back-burner is in the best interest of your dog. I do hope he's doing better, by the way!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

In your other posts with Diesel's xrays, which didn't look so great btw, you said you werent going to breed him..I'd stick to that atleast until you do what you said you were going to do,,TITLE him, XRAY him at the appropriate age.

I get the feeling that you think just because he looks good, he's acting 'ok', and has a good temperament it's ok to breed him..Very far from what goes into breeding.

You'll have a very hard time finding a GOOD female who will breed to him if you can't title and pass xrays. 

I'm glad he's feeling better, but you shouldn't let him overdue after such an injury he could re injure himself worse by racing around /jumping and acting like a maniac


----------



## Freestep

You need to understand that, given your pup's recent injury, he probably won't be able to get an OFA rating. This means that, now more than ever, he is going to have to be really, really excellent in all other aspects. Bitch owners will want to see OFA, and you're going to have to explain that he won't pass due to the accident. They may choose to believe you if the dog has proven himself fully in all other areas, or they may not want to take the gamble... this is just one more thing that's going to make his career as a stud dog more of a challenge.


----------



## msvette2u

To the OP - people have given you tons of reasons why you should not breed your dog, and you seem stubbornly adamant he must be bred, despite the fact he's just a puppy and you have no idea what health issues he'll have with his hip and other situations in his body we cannot view easily without x-rays.

I can't tell if you're just being that way to get a rise out of folks or what. 
But to determine a poorly bred puppy is going to be a sire is foolhardy at best and dangerous at worst. 

We just adopted out a litter very recently, that people like yourself decided to breed. Nothing special about their parents - just the fact they were purebreds, apparently. 

Well, after the litter was born, mama died. Yep, died and left behind 4 orphaned puppies with their eyes still closed. 
These people should have brought the mom to the vet but neglected to do so (sound familiar??) because of money issues. 
So now she's dead, not caring for the puppies and flies landed on the tiny puppies bellies and laid eggs. So at 3 days they had maggots in their belly buttons and I had to run them to the vet to have those removed.

Now we have 4 orphan puppies we're caring for, with the help of another dog we had here who'd been nursing a litter so she had milk.

The puppies grew up and we had them altered -and adopted them out. 

Each puppy has shown fearfulness (poor breeding and UNPROVEN PARENTS - sound familiar???) and one has had surgery for elbow dysplasia - UNTESTED/UNPROVEN parents! Is any of this hitting home?

Point is - you have no idea what you even have there. He could have hidden health issues such as hip and elbow dysplasia without showing symptoms. He could have genetic fearfulness even though he's been good in your home. 

You are on the path to being a breeder just like the ones I described above.
And that's the name you want to leave for yourself?
A bunch of sick, crippled, fearful and even possibly aggressive (inappropriately) puppies?? Puppies doomed to die before they are a year of age, some being put to sleep in shelters?

I'm sorry to sound harsh but this is reality here. People work hard to prove their dogs are worthy of breeding - and breeder-wanna-bes are a dime a dozen. 

Aspire to do better. Shoot for the stars - be a breeder if you desire but do it the RIGHT WAY. Not by breeding an injured puppy who, while a nice pet, is just that - a _pet_ - until proven worthy of passing along his genetic material to the next generation.

The other thing is, when breeding mediocre puppies which is the BEST you can hope for, you tend to get poor to mediocre homes for them, since people can't afford well-bred dogs tend to buy them. And that spells disaster for the puppies and the public.


----------



## harmony

I don't see anyhting wrong with an american and german, gemansherd cross. Here is what I would say to do that  . Lots of money, time and tears when it comes to having puppies, and totally visit ur local shelter. I have had shepherds for over 25 years and can count on one hand how many litters went thru them. It is so costly at many levels and lots of training to prove ur dogs and u. Best of luck to you! But that cross I personal like!!!


----------



## Oscar101

msvette2u said:


> To the OP - people have given you tons of reasons why you should not breed your dog, and you seem stubbornly adamant he must be bred, despite the fact he's just a puppy and you have no idea what health issues he'll have with his hip and other situations in his body we cannot view easily without x-rays.
> 
> I can't tell if you're just being that way to get a rise out of folks or what.
> But to determine a poorly bred puppy is going to be a sire is foolhardy at best and dangerous at worst.
> 
> We just adopted out a litter very recently, that people like yourself decided to breed. Nothing special about their parents - just the fact they were purebreds, apparently.
> 
> Well, after the litter was born, mama died. Yep, died and left behind 4 orphaned puppies with their eyes still closed.
> These people should have brought the mom to the vet but neglected to do so (sound familiar??) because of money issues.
> So now she's dead, not caring for the puppies and flies landed on the tiny puppies bellies and laid eggs. So at 3 days they had maggots in their belly buttons and I had to run them to the vet to have those removed.
> 
> Now we have 4 orphan puppies we're caring for, with the help of another dog we had here who'd been nursing a litter so she had milk.
> 
> The puppies grew up and we had them altered -and adopted them out.
> 
> Each puppy has shown fearfulness (poor breeding and UNPROVEN PARENTS - sound familiar???) and one has had surgery for elbow dysplasia - UNTESTED/UNPROVEN parents! Is any of this hitting home?
> 
> Point is - you have no idea what you even have there. He could have hidden health issues such as hip and elbow dysplasia without showing symptoms. He could have genetic fearfulness even though he's been good in your home.
> 
> You are on the path to being a breeder just like the ones I described above.
> And that's the name you want to leave for yourself?
> A bunch of sick, crippled, fearful and even possibly aggressive (inappropriately) puppies?? Puppies doomed to die before they are a year of age, some being put to sleep in shelters?
> 
> I'm sorry to sound harsh but this is reality here. People work hard to prove their dogs are worthy of breeding - and breeder-wanna-bes are a dime a dozen.
> 
> Aspire to do better. Shoot for the stars - be a breeder if you desire but do it the RIGHT WAY. Not by breeding an injured puppy who, while a nice pet, is just that - a _pet_ - until proven worthy of passing along his genetic material to the next generation.
> 
> The other thing is, when breeding mediocre puppies which is the BEST you can hope for, you tend to get poor to mediocre homes for them, since people can't afford well-bred dogs tend to buy them. And that spells disaster for the puppies and the public.


I don't want to be a breeder. I'm going to school for something better. this will just be a hobby


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## Madjukes

Oscar101 said:


> I don't want to be a breeder. I'm going to school for something better. this will just be a hobby


A hobby?

Well you might want to go through the ropes first then Junior.


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## Shaina

harmony said:


> I don't see anyhting wrong with an american and german, gemansherd cross. Here is what I would say to do that  . Lots of money, time and tears when it comes to having puppies, and totally visit ur local shelter. I have had shepherds for over 25 years and can count on one hand how many litters went thru them. It is so costly at many levels and lots of training to prove ur dogs and u. Best of luck to you! But that cross I personal like!!!


Crossing lines when you have no idea the slightest thing about pedigrees isn't just silly, it's downright careless.

You like.... the incredibly vague description of mixing american lines with german lines?


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## selzer

If you breed your dog, then you will be a breeder. There is no way around that. Sorry. Doing it as a hobby is still breeding and still makes you a breeder. The question is, what kind of breeder do you want to be? 

I think that even doing this on a very limited basis, you would not want to be thought of as a careless breeder. You need to get you stuff in order because if you want to be a breeder, you need to be a lot more careful with your animals. Yes, accidents do happen. Most accidents happen because of a series of failures, not a single failure:

A single failure: A delivery person left the gate open. 

A series of failures: 
The dog is contained in an area that is open to the public, the public can open the gate without a key.

I do not have a habit in place for checking the gates before letting the puppy out.

The delivery person left the gate open.

I let the puppy out without checking.

The puppy got run over by a car. 


For the ordinary owner, you get a single-accident-forgiveness, and sympathy for your pup who has suffered a nasty injury and thank God he is still alive. 

But breeders have to be more careful period. We keep intact dogs. We have intact bitches. We understand that dog-incidents are negatively viewed by the public and dogs running loose, and indiscriminate breeding will encourage legislation for mandatory spay/neuter, dog breed bans, and a whole host of issues. Breeders have to be more responsible. 

You have a puppy and he's cute, and he has papers and that's cool, and wouldn't it be awesome to have a litter of puppies, or to have him sire a litter of puppies? Hey, I know that is really how a lot of us have felt at some point. It is all about following through. You need to learn his pedigree by heart, you need to learn about pedigrees and what to look for in them, what to breed to, what to stay away from. You need to get out there and train and train and train and train, to learn about training so you can give your puppy buyers the support, and so that you know your dog in and out and up and down. You need to learn how to identify his strengths and weaknesses, so you can make the best decisions. 

I am not saying don't breed your dog. I am saying that you should learn as much as possible so that you can do it better. 

There are hobby-breeders. These are people who spend every spare minute, and every spare dollar on their dogs. And a whole lot more dollars that aren't spare. They are people who are disciples of the breed, not people who have a registered dog and mix it with the neighbor's bitch. They are people who work their dogs, who show or trial their dogs, who are up to date on all the issues, health, politics, training, etc. It is an expensive hobby and it can break your heart.


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## msvette2u

> this will just be a hobby


A hobby? A hobby is collecting stamps, or Star Wars memorabilia. 
These are living, breathing animals - breeding - the right way - is a far cry from being a "hobby". 

As others said, run to your local kill shelter and watch as they carry a litter of puppies back to the back room to be put to sleep due to careless breeders not vaccinating, and the puppies all came down with parvo.
Or they just aren't what people are looking for and there's more puppies coming in. Yes puppies die daily in shelters.


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## marbury

msvette2u said:


> As others said, run to your local kill shelter and watch as they carry a litter of puppies back to the back room to be put to sleep due to careless breeders not vaccinating, and the puppies all came down with parvo.
> Or they just aren't what people are looking for and there's more puppies coming in. Yes puppies die daily in shelters.


Or you could watch them lead a heavily pregnant female into the back room. They have no space or resources for her to whelp; she's first in line for the gassing chamber. As is her entire unborn litter.


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## msvette2u

We just do spay/aborts. No c-sections on our watch :shrug:


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## Moxy

OP - You really need to listen to what everyone is trying to tell you. If you breed your dog and don't know what you're doing, you're going to be contributing to a growing problem in this country. 

I love my Moxy. I think she is the best dog ever. Someone obviously bred her before I got her. Now, I'm sure her puppies were all cute and cuddly, but I'm almost certain they are probably starting to show signs of chronic ear infections, skin sensitivities, and flea/food allergies because those have been manifesting in my dog in the past year. They probably weren't even showing up right away when they bred her. However, she has them, and now they are in the mix with her pups. Thankfully, she is slated now, and it won't be an issue anymore.

Not all health problems show up right away. A compromised immune system could take time. Let me tell you, it's not easy having a dog with chronic ear infections and skin infections. Why would I want to keep that trait going. Moxy is a highly intelligent and wonderful dog. She guards and herds my children when they are outside. She's super alert and watchful. She's also pretty dominant around other dogs, which has ended up in a few small spats.

Don't just breed to breed. Breed to better the breed. If you don't, you're no better than a puppy mill.


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## ayoitzrimz

I think this case, is hopeless... I also think the OP might be a teenager. I wouldn't buy that army bit for one second. Bottom line - you can't fix stupid, and can't educate everyone. Hopefully other people who want to breed their puppy will be able to benefit from this thread.


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## msvette2u

> They probably weren't even showing up right away when they bred her.


Even had they been, people just _don't think. _
I had some adopters come over and was talking about how poor breeding practices led to our Ruger having elbow dysplasia, and I was talking about how his neuter appt. is coming up. I told them how wonderful he was, though.
They actually said "gosh, it's too bad you can't breed him and get a puppy from him before you neuter...!"
Um. Yeah. Let's breed a dog with a chronic, debilitating and painful condition so he can make 8-10 more puppies with the same thing. 
People just _do not think._


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## Moxy

msvette2u said:


> Even had they been, people just _don't think. _
> I had some adopters come over and was talking about how poor breeding practices led to our Ruger having elbow dysplasia, and I was talking about how his neuter appt. is coming up. I told them how wonderful he was, though.
> They actually said "gosh, it's too bad you can't breed him and get a puppy from him before you neuter...!"
> Um. Yeah. Let's breed a dog with a chronic, debilitating and painful condition so he can make 8-10 more puppies with the same thing.
> People just _do not think._


That is so true! Why continue the genes when its obvious health issues will be passed down? Those dogs will just wind up in shelters or rescue groups when people can't afford the vet bills anymore. It's called being responsible. Great dogs don't always produce great pups. There are SOOOOO many other factors involved.


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## qbchottu

Is it because they don't think or they don't understand or they don't care? I think people just don't realize genetics, how disease is passed on, and they definitely don't understand how dire the situation can be when things go terribly terribly wrong...

OP sounds very young. I hope he gains some wisdom with experience and time...otherwise this just sounds like another chest thumping first timer that wants to gain some validation and boost his ego by breeding a very average dog.


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## msvette2u

> Great dogs don't always produce great pups. There are SOOOOO many other factors involved.


This is it, exactly. When you breed two well-bred dogs together with health testing/certifications up the ying yang and titles for everything under the sun, you'll still get a litter of very average, pet quality puppies.

So it's a bit frustrating to hear people think they can somehow do better with none of breeding qualifications listed above...!!!


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## Magwart

People who want to become novice breeders should first adopt and care for a senior who has been dumped at a shelter because he or she is suffering from degenerative myelopathy, severe arthritis from dysplasia, epilepsy, or any of the other sad conditions that plague so many members of the breed, particularly as they age. Experience the vet bills and the tears over that senior's plight before you decide whether you know enough about your young dog to breed it. If you watch a sweet dog you love _suffer _because of someone else's breeding "mistake," it gives you a whole different perspective on careless breeding practices.


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## msvette2u

Or euthanize a lovely 3-4yr. old purebred Pug because her allergies were so severe we could not keep her comfortable 

If you watch a sweet dog you love suffer because of someone else's breeding "mistake," it gives you a whole different perspective on careless breeding practices.

Exactly.


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## 4TheDawgies

Magwart said:


> People who want to become novice breeders should first adopt and care for a senior who has been dumped at a shelter because he or she is suffering from degenerative myelopathy, severe arthritis from dysplasia, epilepsy, or any of the other sad conditions that plague so many members of the breed, particularly as they age. Experience the vet bills and the tears over that senior's plight before you decide whether you know enough about your young dog to breed it. If you watch a sweet dog you love _suffer _because of someone else's breeding "mistake," it gives you a whole different perspective on careless breeding practices.


Couldn't have said it better!!!


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## Freestep

I think a lot of people are blind to the dog overpopulation problem, I know I was when I was younger. I thought it would be great to be a breeder, and I aspired to do it one day... until I got into the animal care field and discovered all the unwanted animals, all the purebred dogs that had severe medical and temperament problems, and learned that there is a REASON why only the best, tested and proven dogs should be bred. In the shelter, the grooming shop, the veterinary hospital, I saw the fallout of poor, careless breeding practices EVERY day. I realized that if I wanted to breed dogs, I would need to do it the right way... and doing it the right way is so much work, time, money, energy, blood sweat & tears... not to mention rife with ethical quandaries. I realized that I don't have the temperament for it, so I leave it to those who do, with much respect going out to those who do it right.


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## Oscar101

beleive me I am doing my part by fosterin ig dogs. but anyways I will not breed my dog if he develops a deformity or a medical condition. I will also not be in a hurry to sell the pups I have fostered up to three dogs at once and have been able to keep up their hygiene etc. so I will make sure I get to know the female to make sure shes 100% I'm thinking of getting an akc registered female pup soon.


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## onyx'girl

There ya go....get your own female to breed to. That is exactly what I expected. akc isn't the be all end all. But I'm sure you'll be able to market the puppies with 'papers' so all good!


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## Xeph

You need more than just AKC registration


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## 4TheDawgies

Good luck selling those puppies for anything, let alone finding someone who wants a dog from yours


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## martemchik

4TheDawgies said:


> Good luck selling those puppies for anything, let alone finding someone who wants a dog from yours


They won't be $1500 pups, or maybe even $1000 pups, but they'll get sold. Easily. There are too many people (I was one of them) that don't care about titles, health certs, ect and believe there is no difference between a $1500 dog and a $500 dog. Many will take the chance because they can't afford that extra $1000 and all they'll see is a cute puppy. Plenty of people sell dogs for this amount, and without the training and titling costs, you make out pretty well selling puppies for that amount.


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## Oscar101

4TheDawgies said:


> Good luck selling those puppies for anything, let alone finding someone who wants a dog from yours


wow u suck at economics. but anyways im not in out for the $$$.


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## Oscar101

martemchik said:


> They won't be $1500 pups, or maybe even $1000 pups, but they'll get sold. Easily. There are too many people (I was one of them) that don't care about titles, health certs, ect and believe there is no difference between a $1500 dog and a $500 dog. Many will take the chance because they can't afford that extra $1000 and all they'll see is a cute puppy. Plenty of people sell dogs for this amount, and without the training and titling costs, you make out pretty well selling puppies for that amount.


I know there are people that would love a gsd just for a house pet. house pets do not require titles . all that matters is temperament, the gsd look, and a resonable price . if someone paid 2k for theirs good for them who cares


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## Madjukes

Oscar101 said:


> I know there are people that would love a gsd just for a house pet. house pets do not require titles . all that matters is temperament, the gsd look, and a resonable price . if someone paid 2k for theirs good for them who cares


how about health.


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## Oscar101

Madjukes said:


> how about health.


well of course im not gonna breed a sick dog


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## Oscar101

do u think he's vicious?


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## Lucy Dog

Sounds like the OP's mind is pretty made up. Good luck in your new venture to become a breeder.

I think we're all beating a dead horse here.


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## Oscar101

Lucy Dog said:


> Sounds like the OP's mind is pretty made up. Good luck in your new venture to become a breeder.
> 
> I think we're all beating a dead horse here.


all I want is tips precautions and expertise from people who have bred gsd b4


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## Lucy Dog

I haven't read through much of this thread, but I know how they all go, so I'm sure I can guess what the previous 18 pages consist of.

What exactly are you looking for? Tips how to pick a bitch? How to read a pedigree? How to whelp a litter? How to sell the puppies? Tips on health tests to do? Tips on titles to get?

There are plenty of good breeders here. What exactly are you looking for? Post specific questions and be open to stuff that you may not want to hear.


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## Madjukes

Oscar101 said:


> well of course im not gonna breed a sick dog


Do you know that healthy dogs can carry a lot of underlying genetic diseases? You mentioned your dog got hit by a car. Now how do you know that any hip problems in the future aren't genetic?

You're not doing people a favor by selling them cheap family dogs. The people on this forum who take GREAT care of their dogs are the minority. A very LARGE percentage of people have no idea what they're getting into when they want a dog. They've "always wanted a german shepherd" but have no idea what kind of food to give them, what training, and how to deal with a growing large breed energetic smart dog. These dogs end up either psychologically unstable or abandoned. And what if you sell them dogs that have had genetic defects in the line? You cost them thousands of dollars or forced them to euthanize a dog.

Do what EVERYONE EARLIER HAS RECOMMENDED and go learn more about breeding and the breed itself.


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## Oscar101

Lucy Dog said:


> I haven't read through much of this thread, but I know how they all go, so I'm sure I can guess what the previous 18 pages consist of.
> 
> What exactly are you looking for? Tips how to pick a bitch? How to read a pedigree? How to whelp a litter? How to sell the puppies? Tips on health tests to do? Tips on titles to get?
> 
> There are plenty of good breeders here. What exactly are you looking for? Post specific questions and be open to stuff that you may not want to hear.


whelping a litter like what vitamins and food to give the dog while pregnant puppy shots and and so forth


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## Oscar101

if ur going to tell me why I shouldn't breed my dog don't bother. just want to hear from people who r gonna actually help thanx


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## Moxy

Oscar101 said:


> how emotional have a nice day


Wow. I have never seen such childishness in my life. I feel sorry for the puppies you will be selling. I also kind of feel sorry for your dog. Dog owners cannot be arrogant and stubborn, thinking their way is right all the time. Your dog deserves better.

Why did you even post the question? It appears you didn't even want the truth. Were you hoping that a group of passionate GSD owners and lovers would say, "Awesome idea! There aren't enough untested GSD's in this world. Let's see what happens!"

You came to a site where people take the time to give you sound advice, and not only do you ignore it, you behave rudely towards everyone. You've been given the info you need for being a successful breeder. Don't be lazy. Read. Do as you have been advised. Don't cotribute to the overpopulation problem.


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## JakodaCD OA

Oscar you have gotten ALOT of great advice/suggestions here, but apparently we are telling you things YOU don't want to hear.

You want us to say "great go ahead and breed your dog, even tho he's got a hip that is probably not going to pass OFA, you haven't got any titles, done no health testing and he's still a baby". Sorry not gonna happen.

I said it before, you have a MALE, it won't be easy to find ANY responsible person with a female that is going to say "LETS BREED THEM"..

Sure you may find some "irresponsible" person who has a female and wants a litter of puppies, but then you just remember this,,those puppies may have health issues themselves and how SAD is that?

You will be nothing but a BYB'er who's indiscriminately breeding a dog that should possibly NOT be bred.

When you get those health clearances AFTER your dog is two years old, when you go out and TITLE that dog, then is the time to start asking about who to breed to.

You have had suggestions to do some "research",,have you done any yet? Find a good breeder and have them MENTOR you..

You've been rude, ignored good advice and hey your going to do what you want to do, your actually wasting people's time here by ignoring what they are saying so there is no sense in giving you and advice you don't want to hear or take.


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## ayoitzrimz

Oscar101 said:


> beleive me I am doing my part by fosterin ig dogs. but anyways I will not breed my dog if he develops a deformity or a medical condition. I will also not be in a hurry to sell the pups I have fostered up to three dogs at once and have been able to keep up their hygiene etc. so I will make sure I get to know the female to make sure shes 100% I'm thinking of getting an akc registered female pup soon.


I guess you can always sell the pups outside of wal-mart. People will snatch them up, especially if christmas is nearing 

Plus the dog is, honestly, rather mediocre.


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## Kev

Breeding two sound temperament parents most likely wont even produce sound puppies if you dont know the dogs genetics. 
Why wont you learn about YOUR dog first before worrying about whelping or giving proper nutrition to a bitch.


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## Madjukes

I have no idea why you want to breed your dog if you're not in it for the money. Seems like you don't care or understand the first thing about breeding dogs so I'm baffled.


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## Andaka

Oscar101 said:


> I know there are people that would love a gsd just for a house pet. house pets do not require titles . all that matters is temperament, the gsd look, and a resonable price . if someone paid 2k for theirs good for them who cares


But if you don't train AND title your dogs in some sort of dog sport, then how will you know your dogs have good temperament? If you don't show them in some sort of conformation venue then how will you know they have good structure?


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## lhczth

After 20 pages and 195 posts this thread is going no where and the OP is not going to change their mind.


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