# Extremely submissive young dog



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm curious how to treat a very submissive young dog. To catch everyone up on whats going on http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/189461-meant-maybe-fingers-crossed.html

I'm told that he is very very submissive, "like crawl around on his belly" sort of submissive. I was looking into the 2 week shutdown....I'm sure how I should handle him. Advice?


----------



## Woof_Terrorist (Aug 3, 2012)

He is what he is. You can build confidence by training, socializing. But in my view, if you live in a city, a submissive dog is better than an assertive one.

My pup is... a.... WOOF TERRORIST!


----------



## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

if i read the listing right..he is in a rescue and was in a shelter? if this is the case then he may just be showing submissive because hes not sure whats going on. I have done many temperment tests on dogs in shelters and they act totally differnt and come out of shell once they are in a new home and feel safe. His true personality will come out in a few weeks after you have adopted him.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> if i read the listing right..he is in a rescue and was in a shelter? if this is the case then he may just be showing submissive because hes not sure whats going on. I have done many temperment tests on dogs in shelters and they act totally differnt and come out of shell once they are in a new home and feel safe. His true personality will come out in a few weeks after you have adopted him.


No he is/was not in a shelter....the shelter did a courtesy post for the woman who has him. She owns a grooming business and her husband found him rummaging through trash-but they take in dogs often apparently.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I still hate the two week shutdown silliness. There is no reason to do this especially when your pup would benefit from getting him out and about as soon as possible. I've worked with a lot of extremely submissive dogs and they don't need the shutdown, which is a recent gimmick. 

The best thing you can do is be very gentle and quiet around the new dog. This doesn't mean he won't have limits, but corrections are very mild and usually just a mild voice reprimand. Don't push him farther than he can tolerate in new situations and always be very supportive. Protect him if you see a situation he can't handle, like someone's petting him and they become too rough for him, you would need to step in and stop this.

There is a fine line when working with these dogs as to know when to let them be to absorb their surroundings, when to encourage them to do something they aren't sure about, and when to force the issue. 

The most important thing is patience and more patience.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go with the shut down , let the dog first know where he belongs , who he can rely on , he needs confidence in you, not his surroundings and the world at large


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

carmspack said:


> go with the shut down , let the dog first know where he belongs , who he can rely on , he needs confidence in you, not his surroundings and the world at large


Yeah - it is so overwhelming going from a creek to a place where they say that he is "submissive AND protective - best of both worlds" and then to a new place...he needs time and definitely does need patience. I would do it - and would do it as long as he needs it. There's no race right? You don't get a prize if your dog comes around more quickly than someone else's! 

You have other dogs right? That will help as he will be able to watch you with them. 

I would be concerned with the comment that I semi-quoted. Sounds like fear aggression, which is manageable and can be overcome with a strong leader - not a dominant leader - just someone that the dog says to themselves - this person has my back and will protect me. With a dog like that you just don't let them think that they need to be in charge. 

That Yahoo group can help give you some good info: shy-k9s : shy-k9s

Check out the Clothier stuff too on relationship based training. http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/relationship-based-approach-training

Also, my Anna's story is in the rescue stories section - unfortunately her first 2 threads were deleted. Annalise (formerly Flora) from TN I think is the title. 

I also posted a big long thing - when you eventually do an outing: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/173733-what-do-you-tell-people.html


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

carmspack said:


> *go with the shut down* , let the dog first know where he belongs , who he can rely on , he needs confidence in you, not his surroundings and the world at large





> I was looking into the 2 week shutdown....I'm sure how I should handle him. Advice?


Excellent way to ease him into home life.
The amazing thing w/the two week shut down is that it works on "dominant" dogs (hate that term, but hard to describe elsehow) and dogs that just need leadership.

Between the shut down and "MIND GAMES" you should make some wonderful progress!
Don't ***** foot around this dog, but be calm and assertive, not overbearing and by all means not "sympathetic". Do not "feel sorry" for this dog - you'll be unwittingly reinforcing the submissiveness.

You'll need to ignore all signs of submissiveness. Do not pet him until he's on all 4s. 
Keep a leash/collar on him at all times so if he tries to roll over, you can gently lift him back to his feet and then praise for him being all the way up.
That kind of thing.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the dog is submissive. sounds like he's already in shutdown.
i would give him lots of attention and care. i would spent
a lot of time with him. we would be out and about. what do
you learn about the dog if he's in shutdown, what does the
dog learn about you if he's in shutdown? how do you know the
dog needs to be in shutdown?


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I'll add that when you do go to pet him, don't reach over him and scratch under the chin and along the top of the chest, not pet top of head. It will help encourage the eye contact you will need on this journey.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Good questions, dd, I think either I look at the shutdown differently or wrongly but this is what I see/think about it...from the frame of reference of a fearful dog...

*What do you learn about the dog if he's in shutdown*
I learn a lot about their baseline temperament under very little stress. If they are growling or blowing their anal glands in fear and having difficulty in that low stress environment, I know that they are not ready to do other things yet. I also know that this behavior is the behavior they will possibly revert to when under stress as a fallback in the future, when they are under stress. 

I learn what the dog likes when they are not under stress - now I say not under stress but the dog may be stressed just being in a house, near a human, etc, these can be dogs that have never had a dog's life like we think of - couches, food, TV, love. But anyway, I learn that they may like certain treats, certain touches, certain words/praise, I can use some gentle training and not be in a situation where I NEED to get the dog to do something like when you are out and you need the dog to move to a place that they don't want to go to. 

I learn about their strengths and limitations - in a controlled environment where I am observing. I can see how I can use those things when we do outings. 
*
what does the dog learn about you if he's in shutdown*
The dog learns he is always going to eat. This is hugely important to them. I toss treats or food as them as I walk by, in addition to however many meals a day I think they need. I give them good bones, filled treats, pieces of cheeseburger, I am literally raining bones from the sky. 

The dog learns the way I move - many dogs have not seen a person move before. The dog Anna I referred to - movements would cause her to have a bowel movement (she was an EXTREME fear case) because she had no good experiences or associations with human movement. So the dog sees me walking around, moving my arms (which I now need to remember to do because Anna shaped my behavior not to - or I'd be cleaning up!), moving in a non-threatening way. 

The dog sees how my dogs are treated and how they react to me. They get an idea of the setup of a person/dog relationship and how it should be. They will see that my dogs may get a verbal correction but that it's not life threatening, they will see that my dogs are not fearful of their life and that they are treated fairly. 

*how do you know the dog needs to be in shutdown? *
When I get a new foster, of any "type" I do it automatically to make both of our transitions to each other easier. I would do it with a new adult dog of my own. Rescue, purchased whatever. I do it casually, it's not regimented AND NOW WE WILL EAT THE FOOD AND LOOK AT HOW NICE THIS IS, it's just the way it is and no big deal. Like I said, there's no race, and I am in no rush. 

Puppies under 6 months or so (depending on breed) I do a modified version of the shutdown because they are puppies.  

I do not rush a dog, I do not push a dog. I do not believe that fear can be reinforced. You Can’t Reinforce Fear; Dogs and Thunderstorms TheOtherEndoftheLeash I acknowledge and accept, and then provide the dog with new behaviors (itsy bitsy ones) to practice that replace those fearful reactions, but that takes time.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The dog sees how my dogs are treated and how they react to me. They get an idea of the setup of a person/dog relationship and how it should be. They will see that my dogs may get a verbal correction but that it's not life threatening, they will see that my dogs are not fearful of their life and that they are treated fairly.


That was a great explanation, Jean...thank you!
Thing is, we did the shut down before we knew it had a name. It just worked, every time. 
Few dogs are thrown right into our existing pack, most have some sort of down time to observe our home and how it works, without the stress of being right in it.



> how do you know the
> dog needs to be in shutdown?


You're right -this dog is already "shut down" but thing is, if you just rush him around and introduce him to everything, and expect him to just blossom, ain't gonna happen.
I think with some downtime, and "Mind Games" being instated, this dog will recover. 
But if you were to not follow the "shut down" and expose him to a gob of things the first week, he's going to "shut down" worse and be impossible to work with.

I think every dog over the age of 8-12 mos., especially one displaying stress-related behaviors (submission, aggression, etc.) needs a shut down.

Something some may have overlooked is the bio described him as "submissive yet protective"....Um, those two can't really co-exist in the true sense of the words. I'm willing to bet he's fearful and it's seen as "protective" right now. A dog barking at the arrival of strangers isn't always "protective".


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Ha, yeah! Me too - I'd pick up a dog from transport, get a cheeseburger for them, take them home - my dogs would be crated, potty the new one, get them a nice treat and stick them in a bed, cover it with a sheet, if needed, and then my dogs would say hey (not really - they don't really care!) and we'd have quiet day where I would read and the dogs would all get a good treat and hang out. Then do the 2 weeks for a normal dog because how do they know me? How do I know them and what they are going to do? I don't. At 2 weeks for a normal dog, I at least have a clue. Or so I think. :rofl:


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your advice and input. Jean- Thank you so much for your explanation-it cleared a lot up for me. I've never dealt with an overly submissive dog before- usually its been quite the opposite.

To answer someone's question- yes, I do have another dog. She is very outgoing and self confident- so I'm hoping she will help when the time is right to have her play her part.

As of now, I think I will be using the shut down method- or at least most of it- based on how he actually acts when he gets here. This is all new for me, so I'm sure I'll be back with more questions!


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We have always done some sort of shutdown (for at least as long as we've owned our current kennel-15+ years). We used to work mostly with K9 units which evolved into fear/aggression issue dogs via recommendations from local vets once they knew we worked with the K9 dogs. Anyway, for our own safety we did a shutdown of sorts with every new dog. Then we started working with more plain fear/timid dogs (ones that wouldn't go after us so readily) and we continued the shutdown type treatment with them. Now we do board/train or daycare/train with all types of dogs. They all get some sort of shutdown, but it varies depending on the dog. Some come in and may only get a day or even a half day of observation time whereas others get a few days or more. I think every dog can benefit from time to absorb and decompress when they arrive in a new place with new people, just adjust it accordingly. A really fearful dog generally appreciates the time and will show you when he's interested in putting his toe in the water so to speak.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I've been doing this forever and have never done a shutdown and never will. It's a waste of time when you could be out working on your dog. Whatever. If you want to do one, it's your time to waste.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't know why the shut-down has become such a 'formal' thing - seems just common sense: Get a new dog that is unsure and has not had much stability in its life, take it easy and give the dog a chance to settle and gain confidence with the new routine. 

Get a new dog that is confident, outgoing, and self-assured, go with the flow!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am not saying this as a back and forth type thing - Elaine does her thing, I do mine, and have for years as well. But the waste of time thing is just a different way of looking at it - I view it as a time to work on building a relationship, getting to know each other and setting up for success as the dog moves forward. 

Lucia - it is NOT common sense at all.  We have had adopters take a dog the day of adoption and take them to a picnic, a park, a busy store, have a party, etc, and that is just not a good idea for any animal in transition. Even with a confident dog - it is nice to know what they are like, how they react, how to set them up for success best. That's why I think it is a good use of time.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I can tell you the highest rate of failures is when someone takes either a newly adopted dog, or a rescue takes a "foster dog" and exposes it to a whole boatload of things right away.
One such brilliant rescue took a dog out the day they pulled it from the shelter, took it out hiking that afternoon and it got in a fight w/their own dog. DUH. 
Another so-called rescue pulled a dog, stuck it in the back of the SUV with their own dog, barely made it to city limits and brought the dog straight back to the _kill shelter,_ for fighting with their own dog!

I could go on. But I won't, you get the drift. Shelters are incredibly stressful to dogs and you will never, ever ever get the true picture of a dog the 1st day you bring it out of a shelter. Much less the first week, or even sometimes the 2nd week. 

But as Jean said, their true selves become apparent in the shut-down time, where it's allowed to become itself.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh yeah - how about the one where the new dog was taken to a dog park the day after his neuter and got into a fight or something...weird like that. And like we've been saying, and Rerun said in the other thread, there is a possibility of fear aggression or of a dog that is not there yet, but could be pushed there, based on the write up - we can't say/don't know, but...it's something to be aware of and in this case in particular, sounds like it could be very beneficial.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Elaine said:


> I've been doing this forever and have never done a shutdown and never will. It's a waste of time when you could be out working on your dog. Whatever. If you want to do one, it's your time to waste.


Elaine- If it turns out that I just wasted my time on this dog with the shutdown, I'll come back and let everyone know you were right. 

I really dont think I should "out" working my new dog-that I dont know much about. Myself, my family, and our home will be new (and probably scary) to him, and he'll be new to us.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I've had so many new dogs through here over the years, I'm not even sure how many there were, and have never done this stupid shutdown. I didn't know anything about them before I got them and everything was new to these dogs and again, never did a shutdown. The first thing I almost always did, was take them out for a walk. Best thing for a new dog is to get out to let off some stress and it gives the dog some time to bond with you. If you want to not work on your dog for two weeks, that's your choice, but it's two weeks you could be bonding and improving him. Your choice.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Elaine, do you really have to be so snotty about it? Seriously. 
I'm glad your method worked for you, but I've seen more failures from not doing it, and never had, or seen a failure from doing it.
And you can talk about it without being so snide. It's getting old. We all know your position, you know.

BTW, you haven't even read the procedure, yet, I see, since you don't seem to believe walking is allowed during the two weeks, and it most certainly is, and encouraged - just don't walk the dog to a dog park and expose it to a ton of things - a walk around your yard, if a busy neighborhood, or down the road a mile or so, if in a quiet area where you won't be meeting 50 other dogs and off leash dogs. 
Also plenty of bonding is going on in the two weeks. I have no idea why you think otherwise, except, OH that's right, you haven't even read how to do the procedure. 

Geesh.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I have read it and my opinion still stands:it's a waste of time and silly gimmick.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

And again that shows your complete lack of understanding of what is transpiring during the shut down.


----------



## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

As another foster who has had hundreds and hundreds of dogs pass through her home throughout the last 20 years, I have never done a "shut down" of any sort. I have been in rescue a while now and I have only recently heard of this term. 

We keep the rest of the pack inside while the new foster gets to explore around outside in our fenced yard (with our supervision!) for about an hour or so. That way they have a chance to smell everything/everybody and get to "use the facilities" without the other dogs bothering them. 

Then we bring out the lowest ranking dog to meet the foster in the yard. After they get acquainted, we bring out the next dog, one at a time, working our way up in pack order. Highest ranking dog always comes out last. 

Once in a while we have had to keep dogs seperated due to personality conflicts, but they are generally resolved within a couple of days. In most of those instances, the new dogs were not truly dog aggressive, they were just scared of other dogs. As soon as they figure out that the other dogs won't hurt/attack them, they settle in nicely. 

The shy/submissive dogs, in my opinion, benefit from interacting with the happy pack. They see that these dogs trust us and love us. Sometimes, at first, they trust the other dogs long before they trust us. If that is how they get their comfort at first, so be it. And that's OK, because it doesn't take long for them to catch on to things.

Every foster home is different and what works for us may NOT work for someone else. We have pretty tight control over our little pack and they fully well know what will and what will NOT be tolerated.


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Some tips once you get past this whole two week shutdown business that's being debated:

When you DO start going out and about, don't overwhelm the dog with a crash course in outings and socialization. Be confident, but don't coddle and "reassure" the dog that everything is ok. By that I mean that when the dog is shutting down, reacting, spooking, whatever submissive behavior of choice comes out at the moment - don't pet the dog, baby talk it, tell it everything is ok, etc. By doing so you would simply be praising and reinforcing the dogs behavior that you DON'T wish to see. You want to instead be confident, redirect the dog to focus on you instead of the scary object or person, and reward for the behavior you want - which is calm, attentive, inquisitive behavior. 

Don't force the dog to allow people to pet or approach him. Work with the dogs threshold, no matter how far that threshold may be at first. Not all dogs want to be petted and approached by everyone, and they shouldn't be forced to accept it. The dog does, however, need to learn to react appropriately but this will take time, training, and trust.

In my experience, shy dogs tend to do better in outdoor settings than indoor settings. IE: a park vs petsmart.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

He is here!! pics!


----------

