# Phenotype and bloodlines



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Withe pedigreedatabase.com we have an opportunity to look at a public display of different dog's pedigrees (provided they are true--a topic for a different board and thread!). This has got me thinking: If I look at a dog's pedigree many generations back--like 6 or 7, do these dogs play a big part in current phenotype? How do breeder's decide? Do breeder's look that far back into the dog?My thoughts would be depending on how a particular line has been preserved to keep certain parts of a dog genetic makeup active. When I look back at Nandi's pedigree there are several dogs that were "famous" the 6th and 7th generation. I assume they were popular back then and used heavily. Anyway those dogs are VA2 Mutz von der Pelztierfarm SchH3 and VA Bernd vom Lierberg SchH3. I think I counted 6 times they appear in my dog's pedigree. Now, my dog is no Bernd or Mutz, but I am curious at what point is it just a bunch of tiny drops in the gene pool.

I do kind of wonder if there were "lost frozen semen" of these pillars to the breed from a long time ago, would they get used today. Maybe Bernd -eh. Probably not Lance of Fran-Jo, least not for this dog-owner.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

You may want to look into COI's (coefficient of inbreeding).
to start.... http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/demyst.html


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Much of it also depends on the genetic dominance of the individual dogs. The genes of some dogs are so strong when it comes to showing up in progeny, that they can still be seen in descendents several generations later. Whereas the genes of others are so weak that even direct offspring may not exhibit them, and the genes are lost in subsequent generations. Othertimes, genes seem to skip generations, with dogs 2 or 3 generations down the line bearing more resemblance to their ancestor than that ancestor's direct progeny.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Even though not line breeding, back massing, as this is called, on certain dogs can influence the production many generations both in a good way and occassionally in a disasterous way.

Dwarfism, for example, is usually traceable to dogs who may be 7, 8 or even 10 generations back! Canto, Quanto and Mutz are said to be the main suspects for this mutation...yet these dogs are in probably 95% of todays show lines, and a large percentage of working lines as well. ( the University of Utrecht in the Netherlands has been studying this for quite some time). 

My own Kyra is heavily backmassed on Ex Reidstein and Bernd Lierburg, among a few others - she is out of a rather less than admired sire - yet overall did quite well in sport, would have been better in a "real" job, showed terrific capacity for herding and produced (in one litter) progeny titled in Schutzhund, certified in SAR and Law Enforcement and who also showed herding ability (HIC) to boot. She is NOT a product of only her father but of her pedigree (2 - 5,5 on Lord G and the sire of her dam is 2-2 on Nessel v h Antverpa) which - with this line breeding is a heavy backmassing through some very serious, very "real" dogs. Finding breeding partners for her, and for her progeny is not easy - my difficulty is because I am trying to avoid more linebreeding, and I don't want to add certain other lines who would not compliment her qualities in a positive way. 

Lee


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

Malcolm Willis quotes Anderson and Willeberg (1976a)


> Quote:that dwaftism may stem form any or all 3 of the following dogs: Hein v Richterbach, Casar vd Malmannsheide and Vello zd Sieben Faulen. According to these workers at least 2 of the 3 must be carriers...
> 
> Some important Dogs known to 'Carry" Pituitary Dwarfism'
> Atstan Imperesario, Dunmonaidh Junker, Warro vd Fichtenspitze, Hero v Grundel,Norbo v Grundel, Hasenway Putz, Iolanda Tell, Karlstadt Tumblin Dice, Persian War of Marlish, Masuta Piaute, Middross Sonny, gundo vd Mordschau, Prima Zorba, Rosetown Jack, Sansarc Navigator, Shootersway Persephone, Nickel v Unterhain, Uran v Wildsteiger Land.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Good Post









My High-line Male has 5 Major Line breedings in the 4th.
4 are from the (Bloodline Quanto) giving him a (6,7,7,7,7,7,7 - 7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7) Uran vom Wildsteiger Land!!
And 1 from (Bloodline Mutz) giving him a (5,6 - 6,6,6,6) on Cello von der Römerau line (very respected as a dog that produce real 'working' dogs) 
This in the GSD show-world is a very good mix, Uran for type, Cello for work.
It's a little Scary to me NOW, seeing the direct line to Uran (that is said to be a good thing).........


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Willis' book is 30 year old - this was an email from the doctor doing the reasearch on dwarfs...

Lee


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

So the research isn't valid since it is from a book written in the 90's? I don't understand that logic. So then all old science wouldn't be relevant any more either. 

If just these 3 "modern" showlines dogs are responsible, how come there were drawfs prior to these 3 dogs being born? Also due to the prevolence of these dogs in most pedigrees wouldn't we see more drawfs due to the heavy linebreeding?

And we shouldn't expect to see any in most of the working or American lines that are free of or only have one line to this dog?


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I think Bernd and Mutz have been in the pedigree of many hard working lines too!!
I don't think Wolfstraum's is saying that Willis' work is not valid, however, the field of genetics is RAPIDLY changing and even info from 5 years may not be a pertinent as to more recent discoveries. Willis' research I believe was inthe 1970's and more recent studies maybe of greater relevance. Also Wolfstraum was using dwarfism of example of a trait that is traceable


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

ahhhhhhhhh - I was NOT trying to be argumentative nor was I discounting Willis - it is a 1976 quote you cite........the comment I posted was in an email with info I received directly from a Professor in the Netherlands who has been doing DNA studies on family groups which produce dwarfs........it was conversational, discussing a pedigree, and not published......the dwarfs under discussion were working lines - and the professor was dissappointed as he said they had all the "normal dogs for dwarfism". He said he'd never seen WL dwarfs, but these had the same dogs as the show lines ones he had seen....perhaps he picked out dogs they are seeing in dwarf pedigrees who are more likely seen in first 8 generations than going back as far as Hein and Vello....it was not intended to be a slight or to cause a dispute.

Lee


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

> Quote:ahhhhhhhhh - I was NOT trying to be argumentative nor was I discounting Willis - it is a 1976 quote you cite


how can that quote be in 1976 when one of the dogs Prima zorba was born in 1985 and a few of the others too ?


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