# New Standard?



## Jack's Dad

Apparently the GSD is supposed to please all.

*Working Dog

*Confirmation Dog

*Sport Dog

*Pet Dog

*Large or Giant Dog

*Smaller, Faster Agility Dog

*Particular Color Dog

*Protection Dog

Guess what happens when specific traits are bred for?

I guess we don't need a GS dog anymore but instead multiple versions.
Well they are certainly out there to be had and it can't all be blamed on BYBs. 

Just for the record I love dogs, bred to the standard or not, but someone has to mind the store or we will wind up with no breed at all. What was wrong with the (Jack of all Trades) reputation.

Not good enough I guess, so we really must specialize in order to please everyone.
I hope not.


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## DaniFani

I think blame needs to start being laid on the buyer/consumer as well....unfortunately we live in a time where its "my way or the highway" so you get a bunch of people crying about how drivey the GSD is and they want the "stigma" of owning a GSD, and the "look" of the GSD, but don't want to have to put in the work and care that is required of a working dog...or they don't care that focusing on a "look" or "conformation" is leaving important traits unchecked....they "remember a time" when the GSD was some "gentle giant" (well anything's a giant when you're 6) and they believe some slide show that a breeder puts out as the way of the land...."bigger is better" is something that isn't just ruining dogs in this world....people want what they want...and they don't care how or what they destroy or maim in getting it. 

And there are all kinds of extremes, they want a dog that's insane in a sport, and it's possibly easier to get that insanity if they focus on the extremes of a couple traits, or a bite crazy protection dog that they'd rather have insane aggression and just manage it's environment....all of this is bad, imo....


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## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> Apparently the GSD is supposed to please all.
> 
> *Working Dog
> 
> *Confirmation Dog
> 
> *Sport Dog
> 
> *Pet Dog
> 
> *Large or Giant Dog
> 
> *Smaller, Faster Agility Dog
> 
> *Particular Color Dog
> 
> *Protection Dog
> 
> Guess what happens when specific traits are bred for?
> 
> I guess we don't need a GS dog anymore but instead multiple versions.
> Well they are certainly out there to be had and it can't all be blamed on BYBs.
> 
> Just for the record I love dogs, bred to the standard or not, but someone has to mind the store or we will wind up with no breed at all. What was wrong with the (Jack of all Trades) reputation.
> 
> Not good enough I guess, so we really must specialize in order to please everyone.
> I hope not.


Well the way things are going right now is really not working. 7 year olds dying of cancer. 9 year olds getting DM. Babies with EPI and Mega E. Pannus in all ages. These are sure not the dogs of my youth. Makes HD seem almost easy.


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## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> they "remember a time" when the GSD was some "gentle giant" (well anything's a giant when you're 6) and they believe some slide show that a breeder puts out as the way of the land...


I was an adult with kids when I had my first GSD and yes she was a gentle giant. There was none of the nutcase shepherds like you see today. Back then if a dog bit a child it was put down. If it wasn't social with other animals it was put down. Had FA or SA or any of the other problems they were put down. I'm not advocating that as the right thing to do, but that is the way it was. You just didn't see the problems that you see now in the breed.


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## Jack's Dad

shepherdmom said:


> Well the way things are going right now is really not working. 7 year olds dying of cancer. 9 year olds getting DM. Babies with EPI and Mega E. Pannus in all ages. These are sure not the dogs of my youth. Makes HD seem almost easy.


I agree. I believe the issues you mention and temperament problems are directly related to breeding for specific traits, and not being concerned for the whole dog.


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## gsdsar

I agree with a lot of this. We have gotten so set on extremes that it seems harder and harder to find a "golden middle" but everyone seems to want that and claims to breed for it. 

We are focused on one aspect of a dog, we pretend the rest is important too. But we breed for purpose. We breed for what wins, be that in the show ring, the IPO field, it makes no difference. Problems abound in this breed, but it's not just this breed. There are separations in many if the working breeds. 

In my mind, a GSD should be able to be to be a working dog( in any venue) come home and protect the family in between sleeping on the couch. I personally look for that golden middle. My dogs won't win any big rewards. But they will do whatever I ask of them. 

The tides are changing, society is asking different things of the dogs we own. 

But saying all this, I am a purist. I don't believe we should dumb down a breed because we want the look but don't want what it entails. I love border collies. But I am not the right home for one. So I admire from afar. 

We breed GSD to be small and compact to compete with Malinois on the field. But we don't have Mal. Not to knock IPO, but the expected flashiness is not normal for a GSD. but that's what wins, so that's what gets bred. Same in the show ring. We breed what wins. Our breed suitability test is no longer that. It's what wins and gets on the podium or get BOB, 

There are those out there looking for the whole picture, using sport the way it was intended. I applaud them. I applaud the show dogs that get working titles, and the working dogs that show. 

But in the end it always comes down to the consumer. Supply and demand. People want a big couch potato that looks like a GSD, got it. People want a prey monster that prances every step and flys across the IPO field, got it. 

But this is not GSD only. Like I said, many working dogs have suffered this fate, labs, Goldens it's all the same. People pick one trait, friendliness and forgo everything else. 

Should we rewrite the standard, no. Should we recognize that our differences are getting further apart, yes. Who is right or wrong. I don't know. I just know it is getting harder and harder to find a good dog, of any breed. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> I was an adult with kids when I had my first GSD and yes she was a go ntle giant. There was none of the nutcase shepherds like you see today. Back then if a dog bit a child it was put down. If it wasn't social with other animals it wabreederswn. Had FA or SA or any of the other problems they were put down. I'm not advocating that as the right thing to do, but that is the way it was. You just didn't see the problems see now in the breed.


I just don't get you, shepherdmom..... I agree with what you're saying.... Yet in another thread you said you'd support a breeder who focuses on specific traits and has now had over five people come on this forum saying they had dogs from those lines and similar breeders (not bashing, just stating what was said and what people went through) with huge health problems and one that was so aggressive it had to be returned and put down... Not to mention several that were fearful and apparently, in your eyes, should be put down..... And yet you'd SUPPORT a breeder of those lines... So which is it? Breeders that breed for and TEST the whole package or ones that focus on ONE area and claim it can do everything else without ever testing it? You're such a confusing contradiction to me.....


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## Whiteshepherds

The best breeders in the world breed for certain traits, that's what breeding purebreds is all about. 

If you can breed dogs with good solid nerves and not compromise their conformation (color, size, structure) why is it so hard to believe that someone can breed for conformation and not compromise the dogs nerves? What is the difference? They're all traits. 

Here's an interesting article written about the breed, I think in 1921. See if you agree with what he says. (homework, lol)
The German Shepherd Dog


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## DaniFani

Whiteshepherds said:


> The best breeders in the world breed for certain traits, that's what breeding purebreds is all about.
> 
> If you can breed dogs with good solid nerves and not compromise their conformation (color, size, structure) why is it so hard to believe that someone can breed for conformation and not compromise the dogs nerves? What is the difference? They're all traits.
> 
> Here's an interesting article written about the breed, I think in 1921. See if you agree with what he says. (homework, lol)
> The German Shepherd Dog


I agree, but imo, the traits should be within the standard or you need another breed. It's one thing to make the FOCUS of your breeding program, solid nerves, while still maintaining the other traits.... All within standard.... But when you are breeding something like large size, or rouch backs, something that effects the ability of the dog to WORK, imo.... You're doing it wrong.... I wish some people would just pick up a physiology book.... Oversized ANYTHING has a more difficult life.... It's just more stressful on the body... Period.... A bent back leads to a more difficult life.... Unstable nerves lead to a more difficult life.... Anything in the extreme is not "breedable" in my opinion.... Why create lots of something that is biologically unable to do the things it should be able to do? I just don't get it.


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## lhczth

Why can't people just live and let live? If you do not like or agree with what a person breeds than do not support them with your money and do not recommend them to people who ask. 

I realize Jack's Dad did not start this thread to have another discussion about oversized dogs, yet that is what it has turned into. Stay on topic, discuss things without attacking others or we will close another thread. 

Thank you, 

Both Lisa the board member and ADMIN Lisa.


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## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> I just don't get you, shepherdmom..... I agree with what you're saying.... Yet in another thread you said you'd support a breeder who focuses on specific traits and has now had over five people come on this forum saying they had dogs from those lines and similar breeders (not bashing, just stating what was said and what people went through) with huge health problems and one that was so aggressive it had to be returned and put down... Not to mention several that were fearful and apparently, in your eyes, should be put down..... And yet you'd SUPPORT a breeder of those lines... So which is it? Breeders that breed for and TEST the whole package or ones that focus on ONE area and claim it can do everything else without ever testing it? You're such a confusing contradiction to me.....


I love the big old fashioned shepherds and I love the whites as well. I'm not sure who you are talking about but I support breeding for both as I don't want that to go away... As long as they are health tested and temperament tested, to me they don't have to have fancy titles or championships. However as I've said before after Shadow died I got into helping with a rescue and some of the things I see makes me not want to support any breeders.


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## shepherdmom

lhczth said:


> Why can't people just live and let live? If you do not like or agree with what a person breeds than do not support them with your money and do not recommend them to people who ask.
> 
> I realize Jack's Dad did not start this thread to have another discussion about oversized dogs, yet that is what it has turned into. Stay on topic, discuss things without attacking others or we will close another thread.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Both Lisa the board member and ADMIN Lisa.


Oh sorry I posted my last message before I read this.


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## Jack's Dad

Whiteshepherds said:


> The best breeders in the world breed for certain traits, that's what breeding purebreds is all about.
> 
> If you can breed dogs with good solid nerves and not compromise their conformation (color, size, structure) why is it so hard to believe that someone can breed for conformation and not compromise the dogs nerves? What is the difference? They're all traits.
> 
> Here's an interesting article written about the breed, I think in 1921. See if you agree with what he says. (homework, lol)
> The German Shepherd Dog


Good article. Do you know who wrote it? It seemed like maybe a reporter.
Unless I missed it they didn't exclude whites in there.

I agree breeding is about traits and characteristics but not one repeated over and over to the exclusion of other needed traits.
You like whites but if a concerted effort was made to specifically breed for only white, it would be difficult to keep from losing something, or creating a trait you don't want.


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## selzer

People have created new breeds though for over-sized GSD-like dogs. Shilos and King shepherds are both breeds that might fit a market desire for larger, calmer dogs that look like GSDs. 

A GSD should be bred to meet the standard in as many ways as possible, the temperament part of the standard -- and that doesn't have to mean a schutzhund dog, the dimension/conformation section, and the whole nine yards. That is just a miniscule part of who they are most of the time though. These dogs need to be able to also be a companion, a deterrent (possibly protection if that is what they want from the get go), a working dog, a sport dog. GSDs should be bred to be capable of being a great companion, and something more + look like a GSD. And health is part of being a great companion. 

If someone is producing excellent dogs that are balanced, yet a bit larger, or smaller or white or blue or pink with purple polka dots, and there is a market for that, then more power to them. They will not wreck the breed by searching for excellent dogs that are on the heavier end of the standard or slightly larger, or by searching for excellent dogs that are off-color. 

The dogs are supposed to be able to meet almost the whole list -- obviously not huge and small, but they should be able to be a working dog, a pet, agility/sport dog, good conformation, good health, and so on. Which means that breeding for a specific trait to the detriment of all others, will create a dog that does not meet the majority of those things. But there is no reason that people cannot look for a specific trait while breeding also for those other categories.


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## martemchik

The truth is...mediocre doesn't get you recognized. It doesn't get you noticed. It doesn't give you titles/championships/all the things this forum talks about being important. It's human nature to want the best. #1 is better than #2, and a lot better than #5.

Our understanding of dogs has grown a lot in the last 30 years. We've realized that certain traits make certain types of training easier. Even within a single breed, there are dogs that are better for certain types of work. And although this forum preaches that a well bred/well balanced GSD can easily do any type of work...the truth is, a more prey driven one will be better or easier to train for one job, while a more handler sensitive dog will be better for a different job.

Today's dogs are much more versatile and over all better trained than the dogs you all speak of "back in your day." Look up how GSDs were used by the German military in WWII...trust me, no training was necessary for the main job those dogs had. Today...the dogs our military and police use are much more helpful than anything even 20 years ago. And the dogs are ready faster, work for longer, and are more financially viable. Same thing with our "sport" dogs. The faster you can train it, the more successful it will be, the more litters it can have, and ultimately, the more fun you can have with that dog for a longer period of time.


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## Jack's Dad

I don't agree that they are more versatile, but do agree they are better trained. Just opinion, I can't prove either case.


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> As long as they are health tested and temperament tested, to me they don't have to have fancy titles or championships.


How is a dog temperament tested if they're not titled?


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## Whiteshepherds

Jack's Dad said:


> Good article. Do you know who wrote it? It seemed like maybe a reporter.
> Unless I missed it they didn't exclude whites in there.


I thought the article said the man who wrote it was an exhibitor. Jay Hall? I'm thinking he showed dogs maybe? I looked him up the first time I read it but can't remember what I read and I'm too lazy to go look again. 

Didn't pay attention to if whites were mentioned I thought it was interesting how he made it a point to say the dogs had to have a temperament that allowed them to be trained for the given job. Today people think they're supposed to pop out of the whelping box ready to serve and defend.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> How is a dog temperament tested if they're not titled?


You've never heard of the Volhard?


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> You've never heard of the Volhard?


No - never. What is it?


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> No - never. What is it?



What is the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test and how do I use it? - National German Shepherd | Examiner.com


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> What is the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test and how do I use it? - National German Shepherd | Examiner.com


This is a basic sound and hearing test for 8 week old puppies. Seems about as basic as an AKC star puppy test.

I was asking how a dog is temperament tested prior to being bred if titles don't matter.


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## Whiteshepherds

Lucy Dog said:


> I was asking how a dog is temperament tested prior to being bred if titles don't matter.


Would you agree that at some point a breeder has enough knowledge that he/she can recognize a good dog with or without titles, or no? 

I'm not knocking titles btw, but I think at some point breeders learn other ways to test a dogs temperament....or not.....


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## Lucy Dog

Whiteshepherds said:


> Would you agree that at some point a breeder has enough knowledge that he/she can recognize a good dog with or without titles, or no?


Yeah, but I'd assume they got there after many many years of working and titling prior dogs. I wouldn't just take anyones word for it. They better have something to show for it. But that's just my take.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> This is a basic sound and hearing test for 8 week old puppies. Seems about as basic as an AKC star puppy test.
> 
> I was asking how a dog is temperament tested prior to being bred if titles don't matter.


That is how my breeder tested all her SAR puppies, in fact how the whole SAR team tested their puppies. That is the temperament test that I am talking about.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah, but I'd assume they got there after many many years of working and titling prior dogs. I wouldn't just take anyones word for it. They better have something to show for it. But that's just my take.



All of those titles are subjective. Some judge likes or doesn't like the dog. It also depends on which dogs show up at what events. If only you and two others show up you all take titles...


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> That is how my breeder tested all her SAR puppies, in fact how the whole SAR team tested their puppies. That is the temperament test that I am talking about.


Puppies/dogs change a lot from the time they're 8 weeks to 8 months to 8 years. A test given to a dog at 8 weeks old proves nothing about a dog's temperament in my book. 

Just my opinion, but as a puppy buyer, I could care less if a breeder does a formal temperament test to their puppies. I'd want them to socialize them to all different people, sounds, and situations prior to going home at 8 weeks, but an actual temperament test proves nothing about what that dog will be in the future. I want to know the dogs were temperament tested as adults prior to producing puppies.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> Puppies/dogs change a lot from the time they're 8 weeks to 8 months to 8 years. A test given to a dog at 8 weeks old proves nothing about a dog's temperament in my book.
> 
> Just my opinion, but as a puppy buyer, I could care less if a breeder does a formal temperament test to their puppies. I'd want them to socialize them to all different people, sounds, and situations prior to going home at 8 weeks, but an actual temperament test proves nothing about what that dog will be in the future. I want to know the dogs were temperament tested as adults prior to producing puppies.


Both sire and dam working SAR dogs... good enough for me. If they didn't have the proper temperament they wouldn't have made the team.


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## Chip Blasiole

Titles are a limited way of assessing a dog's temperament, drives, nerves and character. The best way is for an experienced decoy and trainer to set up a variety of scenarios to test a dog. I am mainly refering to testing a dog as a potential police dog or as a representative of the breed that has high drive, courage, hardness and solid nerves. For example, I have worked a dog that to most people would look pretty impressive in bitework, and then had the dog on the sleeve on an asphalt parking lot while I raked a leaf rake across the asphalt. The dog didn't let go, but you could see he became too concerned about the rake and that showed his nerves were not what they should be. I have worked dogs that look extremely good in bitework on the field and could probably go well beyond a club dog with the right handler, but the same dog shut down on slick floors or would not engage me in the bed of a pickup truck. I have seen dogs that looked very strong in the bite work that would not engage a decoy in the water. I have seen dogs that look good but not bite a passive decoy and that needed to be triggered to bite with a prey movement. I have seen dogs that looked to have solid nerves and become overly concerned when a hot air ballon came near them. So titles only go part of the way of assessing a dog's temperament and creative assessments need to be done to try to figure out if there are significant holes in a dog's temperament


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## Liesje

I'm with Lisa. Live and let live. I love my GSD, in my eyes he's everything I want in temperament, size, conformation, etc. No he's not perfect but neither am I, and his instinct and natural ability brings a lot more to the table than the mistakes I've made with my training and handling. I love my dog, I love this breed. I'm sorry if others are having terrible experiences or can't find the type of dogs that they like.


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## hunterisgreat

Nate Harves wrote this and I agree.

The German Shepherd Dog;
Working Dog First and Foremost
by Nate Harves

Few animals elicit the imagery by mere mention of their name that the GSD commands: brave police dog, tireless search and rescue worker, fearless war hero, family guardian, farm hand, loving friend, companion, and childhood playmate.
It has been said that the German Shepherd Dog is never first at anything, but second best at everything. Encompassing many venues of duty and service, this versatility is why the GSD more than any other breed has become iconic of the true working dog.
The following quote from Capt. Max von Stephanitz references working dogs. It has been widely taken for granted because many use this quote, but sadly very few take time to read it and really apply what the author said.
“The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs. This must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs.”
This is a very simple and direct statement. It is 100% correct. All of those images and honorable titles assigned to the breed come from the thinking that produced this statement and subsequently created this extraordinary animal. Many forget, however, that this statement is the benchmark for the irreplaceable standard that should guide us, as guardians of this beloved breed, as we preserve its working abilities.
We must think of the GSD just as we would any worker. If you want them to do the job, give them the proper tools! We must make
certain they possess the drives and overall makeup necessary to complete the tasks asked of them. The inherent qualities of the breed must remain protected and continued for future generations of service.
Correct selection of the right candidate with the overall genetic makeup allows the GSD to complete the job required; the dog is somewhat natural to the task at hand and has been given the tools. Just because the dog excels at one task, does not mean he will excel at another. There are many “homes” for the GSD; find the dog that best suits the need. This thinking, though, is not breed preservation, it is breed placement. To confuse them for breeding working dogs is incorrect.
Often after training, where we apply the practical and worked our dogs, we discuss what we saw. These are very enjoyable times for me because I enjoy provoking thought and love to speak to like—minded intelligent people about our GSDs.
During one conversation, I explained that the types of dogs mentioned above were the run—off from breeding the really good dogs. That great pets don’t make great police dogs, and top sport dogs aren’t always the best protectors, and that the same dog that would die to protect you might care less about when he eats or when you’ll throw his ball. They may each fulfill their individual tasks very well, but they are run— off creek beds so to speak. They are not the main rivers that supplied them. I expressed my belief that the truly great dogs possessed all of the qualities that made the others individually good at what they did. It was through breeding those great dogs that these dogs came about, and not vice versa. I explained that to breed working dogs, it is important to find the great dogs that can do it all and include them in breeding programs wherever possible. Each of the other dogs had value for sure and could be used, but the benefit was not as great and the risk larger. It reminds me of a favorite quote about training Greek warriors:
“Out of every 100 men you send me, 10 of them shouldn’t even be here! Eighty are nothing more than targets! Nine of them are real fighters, and we are happy to have them, for they the real battle make. Ah, but one....one is a warrior! And I must find him; for he will bring the others home!”
The great dogs possess all of the things thought of when thinking of the German Shepherd Dog, including some things many people actually steer away from amazingly enough. The effects of this can be seen by many. For example, my belief has always been that certain qualities like fight drive, hardness, aggression, and power have to be protected and retained into the breeding of working dogs. Many times these qualities are left out of breeding programs because they sometimes deter from the individually tasked
dogs. People become so consumed in reproducing the “creek bed dogs” that they fail the “river dogs” that created them.
A good friend, Tony Zintsmaster (FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Task Force), recently echoed these feelings in a conversation he had with a German trainer years ago. This man stated that a good sport dog had to be 60% prey and 40% defense; a good police dog was 60% defense and 40% prey, and this is how it must be. This thinking illustrates what we’ve discussed; i.e. the individually tasked dog. My friend didn’t think it “had to be that way” either and some time later, he asked the famous Reinhard Lindner for his thoughts on this statement. Reinhard calmly stated, “I don’t agree with that. The right dog can do it all.”
Reinhard was known for his ability to read dogs and his touch with them. He was especially fond of very powerful, hard dogs and knew their value in his breeding program at his successful working line kennel “vom Höllbachgrund”. An SV Judge and mentor to a great many people, Reinhard understood that powerful dogs must be used to retain those qualities for future service.
It doesn’t help that terms and behaviors like hardness, aggression, and fight drive are often some of the least understood, even amongst seemingly knowledgeable dog trainers and breeders. These terms are often misdiagnosed or misunderstood altogether, adding to their negative connotations that steer some from their retention within the breed. Through influences like liability and political correctness, the image of a dog with strong social aggression has become frowned upon. This thinking is incorrect and a terrible path to take. Instead, the people that dedicate themselves to the future of the breed must exhibit responsibility, educating others not only to the value, but for the absolute need of dogs of this type.
A woman with a German Shepherd Dog clone (he only looked like one and hadn’t had an authentic GSD in his blood for several generations it seemed) asked if my dog would ever be capable of biting someone. I told her my dog was social and safe to be around but, yes, in the right situation he would bite. I was curious why she had asked that very targeted question.
She proudly proclaimed, “I am a breeder. I would never have a dog that would bite anyone. Dogs that are capable of biting people should be put down.” I asked how she produced dogs for sport, police, and personal protection. She confidently said, “I breed dogs for the family.”
Not only did she not want or retain the qualities we’ve mentioned in her breedings, she cared nothing for the preservation of the working GSD. She lacked the understanding that good working dogs still make good family dogs from the very stock she avoided. But she was a “breeder” nonetheless.
Recently while helping a friend compete her dog at a trial, a man showed up with his son and their dog, the type of man that has never trained or trialed a dog but loved to buy titled dogs and breed them. He didn’t hesitate to ask during a break if someone could work his dog, as if wanting to show him off to the crowd.
The dog, obviously sharp and uneasy about what was about to happen, quickly glanced around. A helper approached and gave the back—tied dog an easy prey grip. The dog was very
noisy on the sleeve much to the delight of this man and his son, who loved the idea of an aggressive dog, confusing this dog for a good dog with strong social aggression. The helper brought the padded stick near the dog. The dog popped off the sleeve and backed up several feet, eyes widened. After this minimal threat, it took lots of prey work to get the dog to reengage.
Someone stated, “The dog is a little nervy”— a polite understatement! The man’s son angrily told the crowd, “This dog will kill you. He will gut you and kill you!” (Actual quote—not exaggerated in the least.)
The man and his son tried to convince all present how hard and fearless the dog was. He bragged about aggression and how he “didn’t have a sport dog” on his property. The crowd quietly had a good laugh. Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of someone who not only doesn’t understand dogs, but is not helping the public understanding of the need for aggression, hardness, and power within the breed. Completely misdiagnosed, and misrepresented.
These examples illustrate two “breeders” who have broken away from breeding true working dogs. Although the dogs they possess (no matter how imperfect or unbalanced) have a home somewhere that wants this type of dog, they have mistakenly concluded that this type of dog is what should be bred and justified its need to be reproduced. The reality is that both were at opposite ends of a spectrum and the dogs they held at leash were generations past where a good, balanced dog had once been.
The original thinking behind breeding working dogs splintered into breeders of only sport, show, pet, etc., and not without effect. As our needs change and we ask more and more from our dogs, this splintered breeding has led us from the simple path laid out for us. People who need strong dogs have discovered how difficult it can be to find dogs capable of excelling at the overall work because many are missing the necessary traits. We demand more, yet give less to their production and preservation. We breed dogs without titles that are not breed—worthy and we breed dogs that are not breed—worthy just because they’re titled. We breed for color, and because she “wants to have puppies”. We breed for money, greed, ego, and make excuses for the faults in our dogs as if our justifications erase the genetic flaw. We watch a “mule in the work” sit straight and cheer the success of the breed. Sounds pretty silly, doesn’t it?
As a Schutzhund enthusiast, I believe Schutzhund protects working ability because it provides a picture of the total dog in many areas and qualifies its strengths and weaknesses—if you are truly watching the dog’s work.
However, Schutzhund is far from perfect. I do not approve of watering down qualities like aggression, power, hardness, and fight drive with rules, routines, and judging trends. We see dogs given pronounced courage in their scorebooks when the videos of their work showed a complete lack thereof, even to the untrained eye. Those involved in Schutzhund are not without fault when they steer their breeding programs simply to attain a certain look or color, higher points, or to peddle puppies.
Using dogs with lower drives because the control can be better, or dogs with lower aggression and fight drive because the barking and outs are cleaner is fine if your only intention is to have fun in sport. However, when the result is used to justify this dog breeding, we begin the path down the slippery slope. When we encounter the effects of this breeding, we accommodate the change with new rules and routines, essentially denying that anything has changed at all. The standard is lowered, so that more can obtain and that is a very dangerous thing to do.
“The reminder here is that the origin of Schutzhund and the rules under which we ‘compete’ were developed to ‘test’ the dog’s temperament (courage and hardness NOT ‘play prey’ or ‘ball’ drive) for breed suitability—not for a sport. We cannot lose sight of the fact that Schutzhund is a BREED SUITABILITY test or we do a disservice to the German Shepherd Dog. Conscientious breeders should train and test their bloodlines...not simply be in the ‘puppy business’.” —Gunther Diegel, Director of Schutzhund Judges for the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) in Germany
I saw a dog once with very correct work, but the dog was very flat. Someone commented how obedient the dog was. To me, it wasn’t that this dog was as obedient, as that he didn’t possess the drive necessary to be disobedient. Don’t get me wrong, trainability is a great quality. However, with today’s training knowledge and tools available, we should not confuse trainability with natural ability. Just because the dog can be made to do something, doesn’t mean it has been given the tools to make it want to do it or that it can genetically pass on that behavior. We should separate this thinking from breeding to ensure we do not confuse our training abilities with the dog’s capacity to perform and exhibit natural ability for the task at hand. Our main goal should not be to become better dog trainers! Our main goal is to produce dogs that naturally excel at the work.
As mentioned, the GSD wears many job titles. Tell a child stricken with cancer that the rescue that visits her in the hospital licking her face isn’t a good German Shepherd Dog. Tell the woman who can sleep now and doesn’t live in fear of her abusive ex—boyfriend that because her dog will bite someone he needs put down. Tell the old man, lonely and widowed, that his no—ball—drive dog beside him at dinner isn’t a good dog. Nonsense! We all love our dogs, and we are glad for each role they fill in our lives. However, we owe it to future generations to make sure that whatever need they have, there will be a GSD there for them, too. We do that by identifying the very best we have to offer and preserving the breed’s extraordinary qualities, because at the end of the day, the German Shepherd Dog wears only one title. The most important of all: “Working Dog”.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I have come to believe that von Stephanitz was somewhat of a hypocrite when he emphasized the breed remain a working breed, as it appears he at times selected dogs as siegers or for breeding that lacked in temperament but provided a desired type. He was also somewhat misinformed about genetics to some degree, but it was a new field at the time. I believe some of the emphasis he and his followers put on movement and type led to the loss of some valuable genetics that still haunts the breed.


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## Darkthunderplotts

I would have to agree with the previous article I see it in the hounds give me the hard headed determined dog you cuss one night and praise the next breed for the work not the show or paper


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## Whiteshepherds

Chip Blasiole said:


> I have come to believe that von Stephanitz was somewhat of a hypocrite when he emphasized the breed remain a working breed, as it appears he at times selected dogs as siegers or for breeding that lacked in temperament but provided a desired type.


In a lot of respects he was no different than other breeders, he had his own personal preferences. His biggest accomplishment IMHO was the SV.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jack's Dad said:


> Apparently the GSD is supposed to please all.
> Not good enough I guess, so we really must specialize in order to please everyone. I hope not.


The appearance and purpose of a breed is going to change over time, it's inevitable. That doesn't mean the breed can't be preserved to some extent but it is going to change. Remember, the GSD started out as a herding dog; not a military dog, not a K-9, not a seeing eye dog, not a flyball dog, not a dock diver. You can't stop people from doing what they want to do with their dogs. 

I don't think there was Freestyle (dog dancing) in Max's day but hey, if there had been, who's to say Max wouldn't have been out there on the floor doing a two step with Horand?


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## Chip Blasiole

I'd be interested in hearing why you think the SV is of value. IMO, they betrayed the breed 40 years ago, so now you have a working breed and a show breed, not at all what von Stephanitz would have wanted.


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## shepherdmom

hunterisgreat said:


> A woman with a German Shepherd Dog clone (he only looked like one and hadn’t had an authentic GSD in his blood for several generations it seemed) asked if my dog would ever be capable of biting someone. I told her my dog was social and safe to be around but, yes, in the right situation he would bite. I was curious why she had asked that very targeted question.
> She proudly proclaimed, “I am a breeder. I would never have a dog that would bite anyone. Dogs that are capable of biting people should be put down.” I asked how she produced dogs for sport, police, and personal protection. She confidently said, “I breed dogs for the family.”
> Not only did she not want or retain the qualities we’ve mentioned in her breedings, she cared nothing for the preservation of the working GSD. She lacked the understanding that good working dogs still make good family dogs from the very stock she avoided. But she was a “breeder” nonetheless.
> .


I for one am glad she wouldn't breed dogs that bite. In years past dogs that would bite a kid would be shot. Unfortunately today they wind up in the system... and they get rehomed. We can not have dogs running around that bite people. If you are going to breed dogs that bite for work, then you have to make sure to not let them get out into pet world.


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## Liesje

Hope your kids don't attend school around here then! My "biting" dog does an obedience and dog safety demo each year as well as representing the school in summer parades. He also has a junior handler that dock dives with us.


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## Chip Blasiole

A big part of the breed's problem is that it has been bred for the pet market.


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## shepherdmom

Liesje said:


> Hope your kids don't attend school around here then! My "biting" dog does an obedience and dog safety demo each year as well as representing the school in summer parades. He also has a junior handler that dock dives with us.


My kids are grown up.  We had Buddy and Shadow both working line shepherds when they were little but neither of them would have dreamed of biting a kid. 

I guess the kind of ironic thing is that I'm now the perfect home for those dogs, my kids are grown. I have Shepherd/Big Dog experience. I don't have cats or other small fuzzies. Tasha came to us with a small history of aggression. Because her tail was so infected she growled and snapped at the shelter staff and vet. She was rescue only. The rescue where I volunteer saved her and the person who was going to take her backed out when she went after the household cat. My Ivan too had cage aggression he growled and snapped at the vet assistants when the animal shelter had him neutered. I was told when I picked him up if I had young kids they wouldn't let me bring him home. (Shaking head).


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## shepherdmom

Chip Blasiole said:


> A big part of the breed's problem is that it has been bred for the pet market.


Nothing wrong with show line shepherds being in the market. Working lines OTOH should stay working and not go to pet homes. That is where the problem is happening. IMO

and I say that even after having working lines as pets when my kids were growing up. LOL


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## Liesje

What "problem" is happening? An over-abundance of pet working line dogs biting little kids?


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## shepherdmom

Liesje said:


> What "problem" is happening? An over-abundance of pet working line dogs biting little kids?


Yes.


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## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> Nothing wrong with show line shepherds being in the market. Working lines OTOH should stay working and not go to pet homes. That is where the problem is happening. IMO
> 
> and I say that even after having working lines as pets when my kids were growing up. LOL


What a ridiculous blanket statement. I have a working line GSD who functions very well in my home as a pet AND working dog. He is as trustworthy as any dog can be.
I had more concerns with my showline GSD but that is breeder specific not Show line specific. To label either shows lack of education with the breed.


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## DaniFani

Hunter, that is an awesome article.... I think it just went over some heads... Unfortunately it seems human nature, when not understanding something, shuts down, shuns, and belittles, out of fear, lack of education, and lack of experience. Some let one or two dogs from a shelter situation cause them to think they all of a sudden understand drives, temperaments, aggression and genetics. Luckily there are still those that understand the points in your article and strive to keep the working dog alive. I just hope they are always around.


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## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> What a ridiculous blanket statement. I have a working line GSD who functions very well in my home as a pet AND working dog. He is as trustworthy as any dog can be.
> I had more concerns with my showline GSD but that is breeder specific not Show line specific. To label either shows lack of education with the breed.


30 years owning experience baby. And I help in rescue. It is the working lines time and time again that are biting the kids. I don't blame the dogs, but the stupid owners. i.e My kids were playing tag and all of a sudden he nipped them, My kids were play fighting with star wars sabers and he attacked...heck there was a thread on here a while back. Some lady let her kids run around in Halloween costumes then got upset that the dog growled them. Well duh what do you think is going to happen when you take a high prey dog and put a darting kid in front of it?? Time and time again same story different day.


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## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> 30 years owning experience baby. And I help in rescue. It is the working lines time and time again that are biting the kids. I don't blame the dogs, but the stupid owners. i.e My kids were playing tag and all of a sudden he nipped them, My kids were play fighting with star wars sabers and he attacked...heck there was a thread on here a while back. Some lady let her kids run around in Halloween costumes then got upset that the dog growled them. Well duh what do you think is going to happen when you take a high prey dog and put a darting kid in front of it?? Time and time again same story different day.


Thirty years of pet experience means diddly in the discussion of breeding, working dogs, and appropriate genetics and aggression.... Sorry.... Your anecdotes are just that... Anecdotes.... I would venture to bet most of the dogs you speak of being problems etc... Came from the very type of breeders you say are "fixing" the problem....


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## DaniFani

I can give the exact same number of examples from the pet breeders you say are breeding dogs that don't bite.... What's that mean? It's my anecdotes vs yours.... It means nothing.....


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## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> Hunter, that is an awesome article.... I think it just went over some heads... Unfortunately it seems human nature, when not understanding something, shuts down, shuns, and belittles, out of fear, lack of education, and lack of experience. Some let one or two dogs from a shelter situation cause them to think they all of a sudden understand drives, temperaments, aggression and genetics. Luckily there are still those that understand the points in your article and strive to keep the working dog alive. I just hope they are always around.


Exactly what is it that you think I don't understand? I've had German Shepherds and large dogs for over 30 years. I have worked with a SAR team as a victim. I have done obedience and agility. I got my first rescue dog in the 80's and have had a mixture of rescue and regular dogs since then. For the last two years I have helped a rescue and recently got to do my first transport with a pregnant mama shepherd. What's your experience?


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## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> I can give the exact same number of examples from the pet breeders you say are breeding dogs that don't bite.... What's that mean? It's my anecdotes vs yours.... It means nothing.....


Well you are right about one thing. Nothing you have to say means anything. Why don't you find someone else to stalk for a while?


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## Mr. D

shepherdmom said:


> Yes.




U.S. Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org


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## gsdlover91

Any dog, regardless of breed, line, size, color - can bite. :thinking:


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## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> Exactly what is it that you think I don't understand? I've had German Shepherds and large dogs for over 30 years. I have worked with a SAR team as a victim. I have done obedience and agility. I got my first rescue dog in the 80's and have had a mixture of rescue and regular dogs since then. For the last two years I have helped a rescue and recently got to do my first transport with a pregnant mama shepherd. What's your experience?


That's like me saying I met a police dog on the street and now I can speak on the profession of K9 training. My experience? I help out with the owner of a police canine Academy who brings every batch of new stock of dog up to our decoy and washes out/passes on the dogs, I help out a breeder who breeds working dogs (non GSD but they are.... Gasp.... Bred to bite And live in families)... I work my own dogs... Have attended seminars, and my bachelors is in genetics and organismal biology/zoology.... So I actually AM qualified to talk about genetics.... See, I'm not saying I played with a petri dish in a lab, or hung out on a college campus (the equivalent to your "experience") so now I know about genetics, I'm saying I actually have a *degree* in genetics.... Just because I jog every other day doesn't mean I know anything about training for marathons..... Stop using anecdotal pet stories as examples of your in depth knowledge of bitesport or what a dog with genetic aggression (balance with proper threshold and drives) is capable of or how "out of control" the dog is.

I volunteer in rescues too... Sometimes rescue people are the worst when it comes to "kbowledge" because they've seen a few extreme examples (that they probably didn't even truly know what they were looking at) and they think they know everything or that they can Cesar Milan a fear aggressive dog into a family home.... Sigh...


----------



## shepherdmom

gsdlover91 said:


> Any dog, regardless of breed, line, size, color - can bite. :thinking:
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We were not talking about any dog. We were talking about shepherds and breeding to different things like color, and size.


----------



## Mr. D

gsdlover91 said:


> Any dog, regardless of breed, line, size, color - can bite. :thinking:
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Only working dogs bite. Pet dogs know not to do that.  /sarcasm.

Dani, it's nice to see someone know the difference between anecdotes and evidence. Just thought I'd throw that out there. 
It would be interesting if Stephanitz were alive today what he would have to say.


----------



## gsdlover91

shepherdmom said:


> We were not talking about any dog. We were talking about shepherds and breeding to different things like color, and size.


Well you are making it seem that "pet" shepherds cannot and do not bite. Only working lines. Even the 'gentle giants' can and DO bite. 


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## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> That's like me saying I met a police dog on the street and now I can speak on the profession of K9 training. My experience? I help out with the owner of a police canine Academy who brings every batch of new stock of dog up to our decoy and washes out/passes on the dogs, I help out a breeder who breeds working dogs (non GSD but they are.... Gasp.... Bred to bite And live in families)... I work my own dogs... Have attended seminars, and my bachelors is in genetics and organismal biology/zoology.... So I actually AM qualified to talk about genetics.... See, I'm not saying I played with a petri dish in a lab, or hung out on a college campus (the equivalent to your "experience") so now I know about genetics, I'm saying I actually have a *degree* in genetics.... Just because I jog every other day doesn't mean I know anything about training for marathons..... Stop using anecdotal pet stories as examples of your in depth knowledge of bitesport or what a dog with genetic aggression (balance with proper threshold and drives) is capable of or how "out of control" the dog is.
> 
> I volunteer in rescues too... Sometimes rescue people are the worst when it comes to "kbowledge" because they've seen a few extreme examples (that they probably didn't even truly know what they were looking at) and they think they know everything or that they can Cesar Milan a fear aggressive dog into a family home.... Sigh...


I don't claim to know anything about bitesport and I never said I did. I do know Shepherds and I do know dogs. Unfortunately people think book learning means real world experience. That is what I have and what you lack. I have two degrees but this is not about degrees. It doesn't take a degree to realize when you take a dog bred to be high prey, high protection and put it into a pet home you are going to have problems. Since there are a lot more pet homes than working homes I am saying it is time to rethink exactly what we are doing and why we are letting Shepherds like that out onto unsuspecting pet families? Just because you sputer a dog so it can't reproduce doesn't mean it should be out there in a clueless family with kids.


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## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> I don't claim to know anything about bitesport and I never said I did. I do know Shepherds and I do know dogs. Unfortunately peopexperience ook learning means real world experience. That is what I have and what you lack. I have two degrees but this is not about degrees. It doesn't take a degree to realize when you take a dog bred to be high prey, high protection and put it into a pet home you are going to have problems. Since there are a lot more pet homes than working homes I am saying it is time to rethink exactly what we are doing and why we are letting Shepherds like that out onto unsuspecting pet families? Just because you sputer a dog so it can't reproduce doesn't mean it should be out there in a clueless family with kids.


So all the police canines I know.... All the children that live with and love those police canines..... How does that fit into your "knowledge and experienxe." I like how you glossed over the experience I have with real-world- biting experience. I have experience (one of my best friends is a police canine handler) with these crazy bite dogs your speak of.... You. Do. Not. You have a few anecdotal stories of dogs with bad genes.... Police canines have to be social.... They have to be good with people.... And yet they bite? My goodness, how are you going to make sense of that anecdote in your mind? I'm not talking about police canines from the perspective of a victim..... I'm talking about observing and experiencing the training of LOTS of police canines.... I've seen more than most, and less than some on here.... I've seen proper aggression and balance of drives and believe it or not, the ones that make it into the Academy are very social dogs.


----------



## shepherdmom

gsdlover91 said:


> Well you are making it seem that "pet" shepherds cannot and do not bite. Only working lines. Even the 'gentle giants' can and DO bite.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


any dog will bite. Cocker Spanials used to be one of the worst biters after the whole lady and the tramp thing. Working line shepherds bred to be high prey and high drive are getting out into the pet world. People with no knowledge are breeding them because they look pretty and then GSD's everywhere are getting bad reps because of a few bad dogs. Andy's original thread was about a new standard.... People breeding for color, for certain things for oversize. I'm saying breeding for color and for size is not the only problem. Those breeding working lines and who are complaining about oversized and white dogs need to take a good hard look at themselves. That is all I am saying!


----------



## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> So all the police canines I know.... All the children that live with and love those police canines..... How does that fit into your "knowledge and experienxe." I like how you glossed over the experience I have with real-world- biting experience. I have experience (one of my best friends is a police canine handler) with these crazy bite dogs your speak of.... You. Do. Not. You have a few anecdotal stories of dogs with bad genes.... .


Good grief your best friend is a canine handler and that gives you police dog experience? and you call my stories anecdotal? Anyway have fun talking to yourself. I'm going to take my ancedotal behind down to the rescue kennel and work with the Shepherd that was just returned because he pulled the lady over when she was walking trying to go chase cars.


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## hunterisgreat

shepherdmom said:


> I for one am glad she wouldn't breed dogs that bite. In years past dogs that would bite a kid would be shot. Unfortunately today they wind up in the system... and they get rehomed. We can not have dogs running around that bite people. If you are going to breed dogs that bite for work, then you have to make sure to not let them get out into pet world.


I have tons of videos of my dog, that will definitely bite when appropriate, who's grandfather I'm told was notorious for breaking forearms on the street in his SWAT dog days, playing with small children he's never met before. Its the ignorant assumption that a dog that can or does do bitework is somehow less safe to be around. They are infact safer. What you say is akin to saying anyone who practices martial arts should not be allowed out in public. 

FYI, most "bite work" breeders have pups in each litter that go to bitework, and the rest usually go to pet homes.


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## LaRen616

Someone telling me that they have 20 or 30 years experience with a breed doesn't really mean anything to me. 

I mean they could have had 2 GSDs that lived 10 years each and there is your 20 year experience with 2 dogs of that breed. 

Same thing if someone had 3 GSDs that lived 10 years each and there is your 30 year experience. 

I consider someone that had at least 5 dogs of the same breed to be experienced with that breed. JMO​


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## hunterisgreat

I've only been attacked without any provocation once by a GSD, and it was a showline... the showline is V rated and is studding his brains out now.


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## Chris Wild

I really tried to do the "live and let live" thing and keep my mouth shut, but with some of the recent comments I can't.

This idea that working line dogs can't be pets is absolute, complete bull doodoo.

All but a couple of the dogs we have ever bred are companion dogs, living in the home with the family, which often includes children, other dogs, cats... one even lives with a house rabbit. Most of those also do work/sport of some type as well, with the majority of that being a bite sport of some kind. Some of them are just pets with no involvement in work/sport. They are high drive, capable of *appropriate* aggression, and they do just fine in homes and with children. There are zero problems. And I can say the same for pretty much every other reputable working line breeder I know.. which is a lot.

Yet I guess we should be tarred and feathered for daring to place a working dog in a family home? I'll make sure to call the 100+ customers with these working line monsters in homes with their kids and let them know that they should return their dogs because someone on the internet says the dogs will eat their children.

I'd say you're experience is pretty unique to that of pretty much everyone else, including obviously the people here on the board since there isn't a single person who agrees with you.

IF you are indeed seeing all these problems with working line dogs, which I do doubt but will admit is possible, I would bet the majority of those are not coming from legitimate working line breeders who know what they are doing but rather from just sort of breeder you seem to admire and support... people breeding pets for the pet market with no clue what they are doing or understanding of the dogs that they are breeding. The only difference is in this case they have chosen to utilize working lines rather than the tried and true show/pet lines, most probably because they think that they can make an extra buck due to the recent interest in working dogs and obsession with sables (especially black sables) that has become all the rage in the American pet owning population. 

If ignorant people are breeding dogs and placing them in ignorant homes, then problems are going to result no matter what the breed or variety. Yes, problems may be more likely with a working type dog than with a laid back, low drive, zero protection instinct dog that hails from generations of the same watered down breeding, but the fault still lies with the ignorant humans messing around with things that they have no business doing rather than with the dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

LaRen616 said:


> Someone telling me that they have 20 or 30 years experience with a breed doesn't really mean anything to me.
> 
> I mean they could have had 2 GSDs that lived 10 years each and there is your 20 year experience with 2 dogs of that breed.
> 
> Same thing if someone had 3 GSDs that lived 10 years each and there is your 30 year experience.
> 
> I consider someone that had at least 5 dogs of the same breed to be experienced with that breed. JMO​


First Shepherd and First Rescue. 



>


2nd 3rd and 4th shepherds raised together from puppies. 









Current Shepherds... 










Shepherds I'm working with at the rescue. 





















Any more questions? I've got lots more pictures.


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## LaRen616

shepherdmom said:


> First Shepherd and First Rescue.


That does not look like a purebred GSD to me, it looks like a GSD mix so that wouldn't count.


----------



## shepherdmom

Chris Wild said:


> I really tried to do the "live and let live" thing and keep my mouth shut, but with some of the recent comments I can't.
> 
> This idea that working line dogs can't be pets is absolute, complete bull doodoo.


So you chose to twist my words like everyone else. Where have I said working line dogs can't be pets? I've had them. I've saying that the high drive crazy ones shouldn't be put out on the pet world.


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## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> Good grief your best friend is a canine handler and that gives you police dog experience? and you call my stories anecdotal? Anyway have fun talking to yourself. I'm going to take my ancedotal behind down to the rescue kennel and work with the Shepherd that was just returned because he pulled the lady over when she was walking trying to go chase cars.


Are you capable of reading things you don't like? Lol, you decided my experience with the OWNER of a police Academy, and helping out (getting EXPERIENCE) with the training of every new batch of dogs she gets..... 10ish dogs every couple months.... You decided to totally ignore that and focus on my example of my friend who has a police canine living in his home... With his children...I'm not talking about having experience because I drove a German Shepherd from one place to another (your transport experience), or because I've owned a few pets, or because I volunteer at a shelter(which I do).... I'm talking about experience, not only working dogs that bite, but also seeing them in the home with families.... So actually, I'd say, I have more experience than you "baby." lol!


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## shepherdmom

LaRen616 said:


> That does not look like a purebred GSD to me, it looks like a GSD mix so that wouldn't count.


She was a mix. Akita/Shepherd. She might not count to you but she was the best dog ever! Lived till 13. Love them white shepherds!!


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> So you chose to twist my words like everyone else. Where have I said working line dogs can't be pets? I've had them. I've saying that the high drive crazy ones shouldn't be put out on the pet world.





shepherdmom said:


> Nothing wrong with show line shepherds being in the market. * Working lines OTOH should stay working and not go to pet homes.* That is where the problem is happening. IMO
> 
> and I say that even after having working lines as pets when my kids were growing up. LOL


You didn't exactly make that clear if that's what you were trying to say.


----------



## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> Are you capable of reading things you don't like? Lol, you decided my experience with the OWNER of a police Academy, and helping out (getting EXPERIENCE) with the training of every new batch of dogs she gets..... 10ish dogs every couple months.... You decided to totally ignore that and focus on my example of my friend who has a police canine living in his home... With his children...I'm not talking about having experience because I drove a German Shepherd from one place to another (your transport experience), or because I've owned a few pets, or because I volunteer at a shelter(which I do).... I'm talking about experience, not only working dogs that bite, but also seeing them in the home with families.... So actually, I'd say, I have more experience than you "baby." lol!


Sure sweetie pie. Whatever you say keep telling yourself your the smartest person out there. No one elses opinions count or matter. You know everything. Maybe someday someone will believe you. :wild:


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## LaRen616

shepherdmom said:


> She was a mix. Akita/Shepherd. She might not count to you but she was the best dog ever! Lived till 13. Love them white shepherds!!


She very well could be the best dog ever and she is very pretty but she is a mutt not a purebred GSD so it doesn't count. 

My mom had a 14.5 year old female GSD/Husky mix, she was the best female dog I have ever met but she wasn't a GSD.

I had a GSD/Husky mix, he definitely wasn't a GSD. 

So you've had 5 GSDs and you currently foster GSDs.


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## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> She was a mix. Akita/Shepherd. She might not count to you but she was the best dog ever! Lived till 13. Love them white shepherds!!


You are so defensive that its difficult to have a civil conversation with you. Not one person has said your dogs suck etc. If your dogs are wonderful dogs that is awesome!!!! I am truly happy as that is how every person who is gifted a dog in their life should have that very experience.

I cannot say it any better than Chris Wild did. You should read and re-read that post over and over until you truly understand what a well bred dog is. Its not fair to compare poorly bred show or working line dogs to well bred dogs from responsible credible kennels. Yes there are good breeders out there.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> You didn't exactly make that clear if that's what you were trying to say.


Well everyone is jumping on me twisting my words. But whatever. Nothing I say will change anything. Those that like the little drivey crazy dogs will continue to breed them and they will continue to get out into the pet market and someday the German Shepherd will be banned just like the Pit Bull. Please note I am not talking about all working line shepherds. I'm talking about the small crazy hyper ones.


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## Saphire

There is no word twisting!!

You stated working line dogs should not go to pet homes!!

You cannot remember your posts?

Honestly, how is anyone to give your posts any merit if you yourself don't remember them.


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## Liesje

The success of Chris and Tim's breeding program speaks for itself, IMO. When someone else has bred as many dogs with as much success both in producing sound healthy pets and working dogs titled in SchH and many other venues, then they can come here and say what dogs should be pets or not. I'm sorry Chris even feels she has to defend herself. Anyone who has met her dogs knows better.


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## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> You are so defensive that its difficult to have a civil conversation with you. Not one person has said your dogs suck etc.


I have been told my dogs suck. I've been told I went to a back yard breeder, I've been told I'm passive agressive, I've been told I know nothing and am uneducated. I have been jumped on time and time again by a few people around here. Oh yeah and I'm stupid for having sucessfully raised two littermate males together. I still feel like I have something useful to contribute and that is why I stick around. If you don't feel that way then why do you talk to me? Just put me in ignore.


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## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> I'm talking about the small crazy hyper ones.


You mean these guys?










...because around here, it's Chi mixes, not GSDs of any variety, that inflict BY FAR the most bites in our shelter population. 

Breeders producing for ANY moderately knowledgeable group of consumers -- show, sport, work, whatever -- aren't contributing to the bite problem. Mostly they aren't contributing to the shelter population at all.

I think arguing about who does or doesn't have "enough experience" to contribute to a discussion is a massively unhelpful red herring, btw. The content of someone's posts speaks for itself. It's the quality of the argument that matters, and not the peripheral stuff.


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## Jack's Dad

Discussing the direction a breed is taking has very little to do with any individuals dog. The point I was trying to make is that if focus is on one or two traits to the exclusion of others then eventually problems will arise.

The breed needs a base to work from and to me that is the standard. 

The horse is already out of the barn so locking it now well not stop all the niche categories of GSDs but it would be nice to maintain a standard so that there is a recognizable breed.

Sport breeders are not going to just stop nor are the pet producers or those primarily interested in confirmation but I hope there are still enough breeders who like the versatile, stable, good nerved dogs to want to produce them.

Working line and showline are descriptions of types but Chris is right about the misconceptions that working line dogs are crazy and can't be kept as pets. Most of them are pets and if bred properly are doing fine in that role. Most showline dogs don't show but are pets. 

It's not about lines it is about stability.

Unstable dogs with bad nerves or lousy owners are dogs that bite and that is the problem in any line.

Loved your posts Chris and Hunter.


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## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> Sure sweetie pie. Whatever you say keep telling yourself your the smartest person out there. No one elses opinions count or matter. You know everything. Maybe someday someone will believe you. :wild:


For what it's worth, I made the "more experience than you baby" because I thought the use of the term "baby" earlier was hilarious and wanted to repeat it. I'm didn't mean "I have more experience... My dad could beat up your dad" nonsense... I just don't understand what "enpugh" experience is to you? You asked what my experience was, I told you, and then you completely ignored the real life experience and told me book smarts didn't matter..... You absolutely have more pet experience than I... We just have different experiences.... But to make broad brush stroking comments like "small hyper lines" and that dogs bred to work shouldn't be in pet homes... I just couldn't sit by quietly. People are commenting because while it may be fine and dandy for you to have whatever opinion you want, it does the breed a disservice to be sharing that opinion to people with no knowledge of the breed, and influencing them with these major, incorrect, generalizations. So... In closing.... Sorry for the petty "baby, more experience" comment.... I get passionate about this breed and hate when people think working lines are some kind of bite crazy hyper sport dog that will attack and eat the young and elderly. And that's all I have to say about that! Lol


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## Chris Wild

Small, hyper ones, eh?

Like this one who's hanging out with me at work today? Where she has yet to bite or menace any of my co-workers (though she has enjoyed playing fetch and tug with a few) or killed and eaten a co-worker's 4mo Boston Terrier pup who is also hanging out at the office today.

Here is my small, what you would probably call "hyper", girl. Though in truth she is not "hyper". She is VERY high drive, but like any good working line with solid nerve she has a good "off" switch and knows when to settle. Currently she's bored out of her skull as I'm arguing with someone on the internet.... just grabbed the camera phone to snap this a minute ago.


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## hunterisgreat

shepherdmom said:


> So you chose to twist my words like everyone else. Where have I said working line dogs can't be pets? I've had them. I've saying that the high drive crazy ones shouldn't be put out on the pet world.


You said it here



shepherdmom said:


> I for one am glad she wouldn't breed dogs that bite. In years past dogs that would bite a kid would be shot. Unfortunately today they wind up in the system... and they get rehomed. We can not have dogs running around that bite people. *If you are going to breed dogs that bite for work, then you have to make sure to not let them get out into pet world.*


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## selzer

ShepherdMom, the dogs your working with in rescue, look like show line dogs. Are these the working line dogs you were talking about? 

I am more familiar with show line dogs. If I wanted to make blanket statements from what I see regularly, is that the working line dogs (around here) seem to be a little more dog aggressive, and the show line dogs seem more reactive overall. I think there are problems in the show lines. I don't want to speak for the working lines. 

I think that if people can get the dog to age 2 or 3, they can probably get the dog to age 9-13. But some dogs are are so crazy as adolescents, that people give up on them. So, I expect rescues see a lot of 1-3 year old dogs. I don't think it matters much whether the youngsters are crazy from being high energy/high drive with the harder temperament that can take corrections without blinking, or if they youngsters have soft temperaments, that shut down (he's stubborn/defiant/stupid), and tend toward reactive behaviours, and sometimes aggression. 

I am not sure the breed has digressed so much, or if our generations have less skill at owning and training dogs, than our parents and grandparents. It seems like we get them out to training classes and have tons more methods and information than was around 35 years ago when I started reading about dog training. But pretty much across the board, and across breeds, people nowadays don't handle dogs well. And I know its a big no-no to blame owners, but big dogs, little dogs, working dogs, bird dogs, popular dogs, unique dogs, pure-bred dogs, and mutts are all biting people. 

We were bitten 30-40 years ago too though. People weren't as sue crazy then, and people generally blamed the victim more back then. I know when I got my first GSD, I was so worried about the possibility of him biting someone/being sued, that I never let anyone near him, and predictably, he became a dog that couldn't be near people/kids. 

I think people were a lot more relaxed about their dogs, and in turn dogs were a lot more relaxed. People had few if any expectations for dogs, and dogs rarely failed to meet them. Kids were exposed to dogs and dogs were exposed to kids, and generally that went really well. 

Yes, I think that the complaints people have about dogs in general these days have many causes. I don't know if you can saddle them on any one factor entirely. I think your better breeders, breeders strongly involved with showing or schutzhund or working are going to command a market of the best owners -- those with experience with the breed, those with experience in training, those who will be committed to training, etc. It stands to figure that your least informed, least experienced buyers hooking up with your least knowledgeable breeders is likely to have a higher rate of fails.


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## Doc

I'm sure I had a conversation with Stephanitz about his idea of keeping his dog a working dog. That was a few years ago so my memory may be fading. He did point out that his purpose of testing a dog was to ascertain wether or not a particular dog was breed worthy. His test had nothing to do with running down a field to score points when biting a sleeve. Max wanted a "balanced" shepherd bred for the Golden Middle of the spectrum. It is hard to understand the "Golden Middle" if you are unaware of the boundaries on the continuum. For working service dogs, the bloodline of a German shepherd should not be above 25% Thurginian dogs. I would venture to say, if you research the bloodlines of today's extreme "working" dog their bloodlines are made up of predominately Thurginian dogs. Of course if you have never studied the historical bloodlines of German shepherds then one can not be aware of the extremes and therefore clueless to the Golden Middle that Stephanitz yearned for.


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## lhczth

Thank you Chris. You put it much more eloquently than I could have. 

I have found over the years that those who work in rescue have the most distorted view of dogs, breeders, and owners. They see the worst of the worst cases in most instances. In many ways I can not blame them for their opinions. 

I work with the better people. Those that take classes, train and maybe compete with their dogs. Those that are dedicated to being responsible owners and having good canine citizens. Despite this I also get to see some really bad dogs of all breeds, but especially GSD (far far too many really bad GSD). The majority have come from breeders whose only criteria was some police dogs in the background or that "Shep" was 120# and wonderful with the kids. The worst have been a mixture of pet, "police lines" and some AKC show lines. Dogs bred by people who lack experience working dogs, have no real knowledge of the dogs/lines they are using and whose only breeding criteria is what sells (big, black sable, or the current fad). 




Chris Wild said:


> I really tried to do the "live and let live" thing and keep my mouth shut, but with some of the recent comments I can't.
> 
> This idea that working line dogs can't be pets is absolute, complete BS.
> 
> All but a couple of the dogs we have ever bred are companion dogs, living in the home with the family, which often includes children, other dogs, cats... one even lives with a house rabbit. Most of those also do work/sport of some type as well, with the majority of that being a bite sport of some kind. Some of them are just pets with no involvement in work/sport. They are high drive, capable of *appropropriate* aggression, and they do just fine in homes and with children. There are zero problems. And I can say the same for pretty much every other reputable working line breeder I know.. which is a lot.
> 
> Yet I guess we should be tarred and feathered for daring to place a working dog in a family home? I'll make sure to call the 100+ customers with these working line monsters in homes with their kids and let them know that they should return their dogs because someone on the internet says the dogs will eat their children.
> 
> I'd say you're experience is pretty unique to that of pretty much everyone else, including obviously the people here on the board since there isn't a single person who agrees with you.
> 
> IF you are indeed seeing all these problems with working line dogs, which I do doubt but will admit is possible, I would bet the majority of those are not coming from legitimate working line breeders who know what they are doing but rather from just sort of breeder you seem to admire and support... people breeding pets for the pet market with no clue what they are doing or understanding of the dogs that they are breeding. The only difference is in this case they have chosen to utilize working lines rather than the tried and true show/pet lines, most probably because they think that they can make an extra buck due to the recent interest in working dogs and obsession with sables (especially black sables) that has become all the rage in the American pet owning population.
> 
> If ignorant people are breeding dogs and placing them in ignorant homes, then problems are going to result no matter what the breed or variety. Yes, problems may be more likely with a working type dog than with a laid back, low drive, zero protection instinct dog that hails from generations of the same watered down breeding, but the fault still lies with the ignorant humans messing around with things that they have no business doing rather than with the dog.


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## Merciel

selzer said:


> So, I expect rescues see a lot of 1-3 year old dogs.
> 
> I am not sure the breed has digressed so much, or if our generations have less skill at owning and training dogs, than our parents and grandparents.


Yep. Peak age for owner dumps is about 6 months to 2 years. Puppy cuteness is faded, kids have lost interest in the novelty, the dog's a mouthy tin-eared adolescent and it's jumping on guests and surfing the counters and there's nothing wrong with the dog but the owners don't have the patience or skill to deal with it, so off to the pound it goes.

Happens across all breeds. Mostly pitties around here because those just happen to be in the households where people don't have the time/commitment/knowledge/whatever to deal with them, but it's not a breed-specific issue, it's an owner issue.

re: the second point -- I don't think the dogs have deteriorated (although splintered? sure, absolutely), and I don't think the owners of yore were any better at handling or training them. For the most part, I would guess they were worse, just as humans used to be considerably worse at everything from professional sports to science. Knowledge and skill advance over time.

There's definitely a tendency to view the past through rose-tinted lenses and dwell on specific isolated examples as representatives of average experience, but if you've made any honest study of history, the truth is pretty clear: the past was not better.

(edited to sub "dogs" for "breed" because actually there's a fair argument to be made that purebreds in general have suffered from popular sire syndrome, etc., which is not the argument I want to make)


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> ShepherdMom, the dogs your working with in rescue, look like show line dogs. Are these the working line dogs you were talking about?
> 
> I am more familiar with show line dogs. If I wanted to make blanket statements from what I see regularly, is that the working line dogs (around here) seem to be a little more dog aggressive, and the show line dogs seem more reactive overall. I think there are problems in the show lines. I don't want to speak for the working lines.
> 
> I think that if people can get the dog to age 2 or 3, they can probably get the dog to age 9-13. But some dogs are are so crazy as adolescents, that people give up on them. So, I expect rescues see a lot of 1-3 year old dogs. I don't think it matters much whether the youngsters are crazy from being high energy/high drive with the harder temperament that can take corrections without blinking, or if they youngsters have soft temperaments, that shut down (he's stubborn/defiant/stupid), and tend toward reactive behaviours, and sometimes aggression.
> 
> I am not sure the breed has digressed so much, or if our generations have less skill at owning and training dogs, than our parents and grandparents. It seems like we get them out to training classes and have tons more methods and information than was around 35 years ago when I started reading about dog training. But pretty much across the board, and across breeds, people nowadays don't handle dogs well. And I know its a big no-no to blame owners, but big dogs, little dogs, working dogs, bird dogs, popular dogs, unique dogs, pure-bred dogs, and mutts are all biting people.
> 
> We were bitten 30-40 years ago too though. People weren't as sue crazy then, and people generally blamed the victim more back then. I know when I got my first GSD, I was so worried about the possibility of him biting someone/being sued, that I never let anyone near him, and predictably, he became a dog that couldn't be near people/kids.
> 
> I think people were a lot more relaxed about their dogs, and in turn dogs were a lot more relaxed. People had few if any expectations for dogs, and dogs rarely failed to meet them. Kids were exposed to dogs and dogs were exposed to kids, and generally that went really well.
> 
> Yes, I think that the complaints people have about dogs in general these days have many causes. I don't know if you can saddle them on any one factor entirely. I think your better breeders, breeders strongly involved with showing or schutzhund or working are going to command a market of the best owners -- those with experience with the breed, those with experience in training, those who will be committed to training, etc. It stands to figure that your least informed, least experienced buyers hooking up with your least knowledgeable breeders is likely to have a higher rate of fails.


The dog I'm working with now is showline or at least I think so by his color he may be a mix. He is also probably going to be over 100 #s when he gets some weight on him he very underweight. He is not one of the dogs I was talking about although he is very hyper he has no bite history. 




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## shepherdmom

Chris Wild said:


> Small, hyper ones, eh?
> 
> Like this one who's hanging out with me at work today? Where she has yet to bite or menace any of my co-workers (though she has enjoyed playing fetch and tug with a few) or killed and eaten a co-worker's 4mo Boston Terrier pup who is also hanging out at the office today.
> 
> Here is my small, what you would probably call "hyper", girl. Though in truth she is not "hyper". She is VERY high drive, but like any good working line with solid nerve she has a good "off" switch and knows when to settle. Currently she's bored out of her skull as I'm arguing with someone on the internet.... just grabbed the camera phone to snap this a minute ago.


I don't know you or your dogs she might be just fine in an inexperienced pet home with no structure no training and darting kids but how many people can say the same about their high drive dogs? I'm pretty sure my couch potato might even have problems if I didn't take him outside and wear his old behind out a couple of times a day. 


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## Andaka

shepherdmom said:


> I don't know you or your dogs she might be just fine in an inexperienced pet home with no structure no training and darting kids but how many people can say the same about their high drive dogs? I'm pretty sure my couch potato might even have problems if I didn't take him outside and wear his old behind out a couple of times a day.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


But that dog would never end up in a home like that because Chris cares about where her dogs go and evaluate homes carefully. I wouldn't let any of my pups end up in a home like that either.


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## Chris Wild

shepherdmom said:


> I don't know you or your dogs she might be just fine in an inexperienced pet home with no structure no training and darting kids but how many people can say the same about their high drive dogs? I'm pretty sure my couch potato might even have problems if I didn't take him outside and wear his old behind out a couple of times a day.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


IMO, NO GSD belongs in a home with "no structure no training", I don't care what kind of GSD it is. The same goes for most breeds. A pet rock would be a better choice for someone who has no knowledge or experience with dogs, no interest or time to learn or to provide properly for the dog. And no responsible breeder would sell to such a home.

Which sort of highlights the point I was making earlier.

Bad dogs are the result of bad owners. They start by getting a poorly bred dog either out of ignorance or because the good breeders have refused to sell to them, and rightfully so. And then they provide "no structure no training" and take a dog that was probably genetically inferior to start with and make it worse. Those are the dogs who are biting people. Not the well bred dogs placed in good homes.


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## hunterisgreat

shepherdmom said:


> I don't know you or your dogs she might be just fine in an inexperienced pet home with no structure no training and darting kids but how many people can say the same about their high drive dogs? I'm pretty sure my couch potato might even have problems if I didn't take him outside and wear his old behind out a couple of times a day.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't know how well any dog can do in a bad environment?


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## Kayos and Havoc

I have not been on the board for a while. It was blocked at work, darn them. Isn't it just like me to come upon a thread such as this one. I think I will stay out of it except to say do your homework and know what you are talking about.


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## alexg

Waiting to see when the shepherdmom gets another thread closed.


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## selzer

alexg said:


> Waiting to see when the shepherdmom gets another thread closed.


Shepherdmom has GSDs. She is an owner and has opinions, and deserves as much respect as anyone else on this site. When groups of individuals gang up on someone because their collective opinion is different from the individual's, it is hard to not reply to some defensively, especially when some of these posts can be taken wrong easily. I mean we have admins here using terms like bull doodoo to refer to some of the what this member believes. And that kind gives the go-ahead for all the others to be more and more nasty in their responses, because this person hasn't caved yet or shut up. 

No one has to agree with her, and it is understandable for people to argue their opinion and why their opinion is correct, but we can do that without being rude, can't we?


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## Chris Wild

Sue, if my use of **** offends you so much and you feel it is a rule violation than please do a notify on my post and have one of the other Mods of the section or Admins edit it to be something less offensive and send me a warning.

However, the idea that an Admin disagreeing with someone means that the rest of the world is free to gang up on that person is, well.....

We are allowed to have our opinions just as any other member.


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## selzer

Chris Wild said:


> Sue, if my use of **** offends you so much and you feel it is a rule violation than please do a notify on my post and have one of the other Mods of the section or Admins edit it to be something less offensive and send me a warning.
> 
> However, the idea that an Admin disagreeing with someone means that the rest of the world is free to gang up on that person is, well.....
> 
> We are allowed to have our opinions just as any other member.


I waited and someone else mentioned the BS before I did. So it doesn't go unnoticed. If you are in the position of enforcing the various rules of the board, then you should follow them. 

The dude whose post I quoted might have felt much freer to make a personal attack because of your statement. If you do not believe that people whose names are pretty well known here, cannot begin or avert a hen party around here, than I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you. However, I will not call your opinion poop.

You can easily disagree with people without opening the door for others to ridicule, etc. Instead of saying the idea that working line dogs can't be pets is bull doodoo, you could say, here is my working line dog, see it's a pet, so I have to disagree with you there. One, because you are an admin encourages others to ridicule, while the other is neutral.


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## lhczth

The offending abbreviation has been removed and the offending poster properly corrected. Can we now get back to our regularly scheduled discussions? 

ADMIN Lisa


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## shepherdmom

Chris Wild said:


> IMO, NO GSD belongs in a home with "no structure no training", I don't care what kind of GSD it is. The same goes for most breeds. A pet rock would be a better choice for someone who has no knowledge or experience with dogs, no interest or time to learn or to provide properly for the dog. And no responsible breeder would sell to such a home.
> 
> Which sort of highlights the point I was making earlier.


warning anecdotal story: 

Our rescue placed a dog in a good home passed all background checks who already had one of our previous dogs. Nice people, nice family. Husband got injured at work, got addicted to pain killers, got abusive. Wife took kids and ran to a women's shelter. Dogs were left in yard to fend for themselves. One broke out found running starving out in desert 3 weeks later. Life Happens. Most people have the best intentions but it doesn't always work out.

I'm sure Chris you are very careful where you place dogs. Hopefully they always have good homes. But why take the chance? Why can't working dogs be for working? We can take the show dogs bread them for pet homes different colors, large, and couch potatos. Wouldn't that be better than the mess we have now?


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sure Chris you are very careful where you place dogs. Hopefully they always have good homes. But why take the chance? Why can't working dogs be for working? We can take the show dogs bread them for pet homes different colors, large, and couch potatos. Wouldn't that be better than the mess we have now?


Sounds like a Shiloh or a king shepherd. I say sounds because I don't know much about either breed - just basing on what I've heard about them. Large and lower drives.

And what happens if a pet home doesn't want a couch potato? I consider myself a pet home and I definitely don't want a dog with no drive that just wants to be a sofa ornament.


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## shepherdmom

alexg said:


> Waiting to see when the shepherdmom gets another thread closed.


I have not been moderated. As far as I know I have broken no rules. If you don't like my opinion please feel free to put me on your ignore list.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> Sounds like a Shiloh or a king shepherd. I say sounds because I don't know much about either breed - just basing on what I've heard about them. Large and lower drives.
> 
> And what happens if a pet home doesn't want a couch potato? I consider myself a pet home and I definitely don't want a dog with no drive that just wants to be a sofa ornament.


How many pet homes even know what a Shiloh or a King Shepherd is? I never heard of them until I got on this board a few years ago. 

As for pet homes wanting a drivey dog.. Why? Why do you need drive in a dog if you are not working it? Is that fair to the dog?


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## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> warning anecdotal story:
> 
> Our rescue placed a dog in a good home passed all background checks who already had one of our previous dogs. Nice people, nice family. Husband got injured at work, got addicted to pain killers, got abusive. Wife took kids and ran to a women's shelter. Dogs were left in yard to fend for themselves. One broke out found running starving out in desert 3 weeks later. Life Happens. Most people have the best intentions but it doesn't always work out.
> 
> I'm sure Chris you are very careful where you place dogs. Hopefully they always have good homes. But why take the chance? Why can't working dogs be for working? We can take the show dogs bread them for pet homes different colors, large, and couch potatos. Wouldn't that be better than the mess we have now?


I think you have to prove first that the showlines are more stable. 

Even I, who am a showline person will not say that is the case. 

One would think that a higher drive, higher energy dog would get into more trouble. But I am not sure. 

I think that even the calm couch potato dogs, can be very handler-sensitive, and while perfectly fine at home on their couch, they may be very reactive in public. Certainly not all of them. But, bad nerves are not something that is limited to working or showlines. 

The dogs are not bred to bite. They are bred for drives, health, conformation, agility, temperament. They are then conditioned and trained to go all out on the sleeve. And a dog raised and trained this way is probably less likely to bite in the wrong situation than dogs bred for no specific reason, pet dogs, or even show dogs.


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> We can take the show dogs bread them for pet homes different colors, large, and couch potatos. Wouldn't that be better than the mess we have now?


And show lines can and do bite children too. My good friend had a show line - papers, pedigree, the whole nine. Attacked numerous people. The first was a young child in their neighborhood. Kid got too close to the dog on it's property and the dog attacked. Kid went to the hospital. Police were involved and the dog was quarantined and sent to a very respected GSD trainer here in CT because the owners were lost. Dog came back from training and within about 6 months the dog went after my friends 2 year old son in their home unprovoked. Nipped the kid and the dog had to be put down.


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## alexg

selzer said:


> ...
> The dude whose post I quoted might have felt much freer to make a personal attack because of your statement.
> ...


That was a personal attack, really?! More like an observation on where the thread was going, me think ... dude. :shrug:


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## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> How many pet homes even know what a Shiloh or a King Shepherd is? I never heard of them until I got on this board a few years ago.
> 
> As for pet homes wanting a drivey dog.. Why? Why do you need drive in a dog if you are not working it? Is that fair to the dog?


I think that someone who competes in rally or obedience would still be a pet home. Schutzhund people who are out there three times during the week and all day on the weekend, are a bit less of a pet home. 

Drives are important, all dogs have them. But even to do obedience, a dog with drive, play drive, food drive, will be easier to train. 

I do think inexperienced people can be impressed by k9s, and want a dog from k9 lines, and can be totally over their heads with a dog that has a lot of drive and has other traits necessary for police work. I don't know if this is the majority of the problems out there though. Not all dogs in a litter have what it takes to be a k9, and people who are successful at breeding these dogs, generally know what to look for. These dogs are probably less likely to land in the worst of hands.


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## Lucy Dog

shepherdmom said:


> As for pet homes wanting a drivey dog.. Why? Why do you need drive in a dog if you are not working it? Is that fair to the dog?


I think so. They get out every day. Tons of running and exercise. We do our own training and obedience every day. They're physically and mentally exercised. I want a dog that is enthusiastic to do things. Drive to run, drive to learn, drive to please, drive to want to be with their "pack" or family. I absolutely want a dog with drive.


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> I think you have to prove first that the showlines are more stable.
> 
> Even I, who am a showline person will not say that is the case.
> 
> One would think that a higher drive, higher energy dog would get into more trouble. But I am not sure.
> 
> I think that even the calm couch potato dogs, can be very handler-sensitive, and while perfectly fine at home on their couch, they may be very reactive in public. Certainly not all of them. But, bad nerves are not something that is limited to working or showlines.
> 
> The dogs are not bred to bite. They are bred for drives, health, conformation, agility, temperament. They are then conditioned and trained to go all out on the sleeve. And a dog raised and trained this way is probably less likely to bite in the wrong situation than dogs bred for no specific reason, pet dogs, or even show dogs.


I just picked show line because they have less drive. No matter which line you would choose you would have to work on getting the bad stuff out. 

Actually I'm liking the Berger Blanc Suisse more and more. They have kept the integrity of the shepherd with a lot less of the issues. At least I haven't heard any bad things about them.


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## bill

All of the dogs are better than some people. this topic is about the standerd". Not who is the most experienced. Of course I know nothing because I made a comment about a wolf weighing 120 pounds the standard calls for balance . 

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## Merciel

On the (non-)subject of anecdotal story time:

Last week my rescue got a purebred GSD in from a shelter. This dog is a _mess_. Shy, flighty, spooky, probably has some health issues but it's hard to tell for sure what's situational and what's chronic right now. Not a fear biter (as far as we know), and she's a very recent pull so it is difficult to separate underlying temperament from shelter shock, but my strong suspicion is that she's got a genetically flawed temperament in addition to having had a super crappy previous owner and being undersocialized/untrained. She's not an aggressive dog at all, but she is _very_ scared.

From the looks of her I'd guess she's a mishmash of American pet lines. Washed-out black and tan coloring, tall/gangly build, narrow face. Definitely not a well-bred dog of any line.

Because she is a purebred GSD and those are highly uncommon in our regional shelters and rescues, we've been getting a ton of adoption inquiries on this dog. I've fielded about 10 emails on her just between yesterday and today, and I always tell the prospective adopters that she is a behavioral case and she is going to need a special home, but that doesn't seem to be putting anyone off.

I think a lot of people overestimate their own skill and/or don't realize what a gigantic PITA it is to live with a fearful dog, but whatever, fact is there's a huge demand for this Dog With Issues because she happens to be a purebred (albeit _poorly_ bred) GSD.

I don't really have a point to this story. I just wanted to post about it because today I'm looking at this unfortunate dog and I'm looking at these well-meaning adopters who want to help her, and it's like "man I wish this was not a situation that existed in the world" but it is, so welp, what are you gonna do.


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## selzer

alexg said:


> That was a personal attack, really?! More like an observation on where the thread was going, me think ... dude. :shrug:


I think it was. You used an individual's name, and suggested that she gets a lot of threads closed. One needn't call people names or foul language to attack them personally. 

Not sure if you are a dude or a dudette. Your user name sounds kind of like a dude, but then it could be your dog's name. I am sorry if that is offensive, I use the term just like guy and gal, not as something deragatory. 

Uhm, maybe I am dating myself, so long as I don't say groovy, it's ok.


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## Merciel

selzer said:


> I think that someone who competes in rally or obedience would still be a pet home.


*sniff* I'm so hurt.


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## alexg

selzer said:


> I think it was. You used an individual's name, and suggested that she gets a lot of threads closed. One needn't call people names or foul language to attack them personally.
> 
> Not sure if you are a dude or a dudette. Your user name sounds kind of like a dude, but then it could be your dog's name. I am sorry if that is offensive, I use the term just like guy and gal, not as something deragatory.
> 
> Uhm, maybe I am dating myself, so long as I don't say groovy, it's ok.



It is my name and I am a dude.
No, I really did not mean as a personal attack, but it seems like she intentionally stirs the pot with the over-sized coach potatoes.


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> And show lines can and do bite children too. My good friend had a show line - papers, pedigree, the whole nine. Attacked numerous people. The first was a young child in their neighborhood. Kid got too close to the dog on it's property and the dog attacked. Kid went to the hospital. Police were involved and the dog was quarantined and sent to a very respected GSD trainer here in CT because the owners were lost. Dog came back from training and within about 6 months the dog went after my friends 2 year old son in their home unprovoked. Nipped the kid and the dog had to be put down.


The dog should have been put down. I'm not saying show line is better but maybe more suited as a pet dog? Both show and working have issues right now.


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## selzer

Merciel said:


> On the (non-)subject of anecdotal story time:
> 
> Last week my rescue got a purebred GSD in from a shelter. This dog is a _mess_. Shy, flighty, spooky, probably has some health issues but it's hard to tell for sure what's situational and what's chronic right now. Not a fear biter (as far as we know), and she's a very recent pull so it is difficult to separate underlying temperament from shelter shock, but my strong suspicion is that she's got a genetically flawed temperament in addition to having had a super crappy previous owner and being undersocialized/untrained. She's not an aggressive dog at all, but she is _very_ scared.
> 
> From the looks of her I'd guess she's a mishmash of American pet lines. Washed-out black and tan coloring, tall/gangly build, narrow face. Definitely not a well-bred dog of any line.
> 
> Because she is a purebred GSD and those are highly uncommon in our regional shelters and rescues, we've been getting a ton of adoption inquiries on this dog. I've fielded about 10 emails on her just between yesterday and today, and I always tell the prospective adopters that she is a behavioral case and she is going to need a special home, but that doesn't seem to be putting anyone off.
> 
> I think a lot of people overestimate their own skill and/or don't realize what a gigantic PITA it is to live with a fearful dog, but whatever, fact is there's a huge demand for this Dog With Issues because she happens to be a purebred (albeit _poorly_ bred) GSD.
> 
> I don't really have a point to this story. I just wanted to post about it because today I'm looking at this unfortunate dog and I'm looking at these well-meaning adopters who want to help her, and it's like "man I wish this was not a situation that existed in the world" but it is, so welp, what are you gonna do.


I think people get in over their heads with whatever lines they get sometimes. Some people who would be fine with your scaredy dog that is not fear-aggressive might not be fine with a driven dog. Another person might be over their head with a calm couch-potato type. And another person might take the scaredy dog and drive her into being a fear-biter. 

It seems like the most dangerous of dogs are not the dogs with plenty of confidence, good drives, high energy, good aggression, etc, but the dogs that have no confidence, the scaredy-dogs. And not all of those are aggressive, but too many can be driven to it. 

This is why we need to look at more than lines, we need to look at individual dogs when we breed. And those that are less confident need to be weeded out. 

There are some dogs out there that nip from herding instict, or bite out of prey drive. I think these are not the bulk of the problem though. I think if we can pay attention to the natural confidence our dogs have, then we can make better decisions on who should be bred and who should not be bred. The do not all need to be able to take on a bad guy with a baton, but if they are fearful of people, children, babies, people in wheel chairs, people on crutches, etc., then it's a dog that isn't going to be passing on good genetics.


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## shepherdmom

alexg said:


> It is my name and I am a dude.
> No, I really did not mean as a personal attack, but it seems like she intentionally stirs the pot with the over-sized coach potatoes.


Ooh feeling the love today. Now I intentionally stir the pot... I'm starting to feel like I'm back on the playground with lunch money.


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## selzer

alexg said:


> It is my name and I am a dude.
> No, I really did not mean as a personal attack, but it seems like she intentionally stirs the pot with the over-sized coach potatoes.


I love how varied our site is. We have whites, and blacks, and Bi's, and sables, and black and browns, and blues, and big ones, and small ones and working line ones and show line ones, mixed ones, rescued ones and a whole lot of pet-line dogs. 

When someone owns a white or a liver or a blue or an over-sized dog, unfortunately, a lot of the threads about who should be bred will come across as though their dogs are inferior. 

Breeders can talk back and forth about not breeding a blue dog or an over-sized dog, or a weenie dog, or a dog with down'ears or one testicle, without feeling that these dogs are not great companion animals. They are just not what we should be breeding. It is hard sometimes to convey that without getting non-breeder's hackles to raise a bit.

And then there are those (non-breeders and breeders*) whose dogs fit whatever part of the standard that is being discussed, and who need to point out how superior their dog is for being within. Or at least, it can sound like that.

* I got into that discussion and had to point out my dog's weights too. We don't always think how it sounds to people who have dogs that are out of standard.


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## shepherdmom

Merciel said:


> On the (non-)subject of anecdotal story time:
> 
> Last week my rescue got a purebred GSD in from a shelter. This dog is a _mess_.
> 
> Because she is a purebred GSD and those are highly uncommon in our regional shelters and rescues, we've been getting a ton of adoption inquiries on this dog. I've fielded about 10 emails on her just between yesterday and today, and I always tell the prospective adopters that she is a behavioral case and she is going to need a special home, but that doesn't seem to be putting anyone off.


We are getting the same interest in Ish. Big LC shepherd. Very pretty. Heck I'm tempted myself. People just don't realize how much work he is going to be. We've already had him back once from shepherd people who found out he was a lot more dog than they thought.


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## TrickyShepherd

I guess I missed the memo when I picked out Storm....... 

I have one of those crazy, hyper, working line terrors....

She's high drive and will work until she drops...









She bites..... and loves it! Fast, agile, and hard hits & grips!

















That's her second job though....

This is ALL my dogs' 1st for most important job:

















































That crazy beast is my constant companion. We are a pet home first, and work our dogs because we enjoy it and because we have a passion for our dogs, this breed, and the work they do.... not because they have to. In fact, my friendliest, most trustworthy, least destructive, and easiest house dog I have IS my working line. 

There are extremes in every end of the spectrum, in every line of GSD, in every breed of dog, in every animal domesticated as pets, and in everything we humans do. I currently have an 'extreme' in both the Am Lines, and GSL...... I can tell you (general you) right now with absolute certainty, I would NEVER trust Duke in a pet home with children or other animals......SL's are not 100% all perfect house/family pets, and vice versa is true too. Blanket statements really get old after a while.

I agree that a GSD should be able to come home from work (whether that be a sport, professional work -police/military/SAR etc, or a good romp in the backyard or the local trails), and be a family pet. However, I definitely don't agree with morphing them into something they are not to fit the wants of the typical lazy American pet dog. What happened to picking the breed that fits the person's lifestyle, family, and personality? Now it's more like a darn SIMs game.... pick your breed *click*, coat color *click*, personality traits *click*, size *click*..... Hmmm, we might as well start making it the norm to pick our babies out too...... I'd like a female *click*, blond hair *click*, green eyes *click*.... sadly technology is getting there.... it's not as "futuristic" as most think. :crazy: Disturbing.


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## DaniFani

Merciel said:


> On the (non-)subject of anecdotal story time:
> 
> Last week my rescue got a purebred GSD in from a shelter. This dog is a _mess_. Shy, flighty, spooky, probably has some health issues but it's hard to tell for sure what's situational and what's chronic right now. Not a fear biter (as far as we know), and she's a very recent pull so it is difficult to separate underlying temperament from shelter shock, but my strong suspicion is that she's got a genetically flawed temperament in addition to having had a super crappy previous owner and being undersocialized/untrained. She's not an aggressive dog at all, but she is _very_ scared.
> 
> From the looks of her I'd guess she's a mishmash of American pet lines. Washed-out black and tan coloring, tall/gangly build, narrow face. Definitely not a well-bred dog of any line.
> 
> Because she is a purebred GSD and those are highly uncommon in our regional shelters and rescues, we've been getting a ton of adoption inquiries on this dog. I've fielded about 10 emails on her just between yesterday and today, and I always tell the prospective adopters that she is a behavioral case and she is going to need a special home, but that doesn't seem to be putting anyone off.
> 
> *I think a lot of people overestimate their own skill and/or don't realize what a gigantic PITA it is to live with a fearful dog*, but whatever, fact is there's a huge demand for this Dog With Issues because she happens to be a purebred (albeit _poorly_ bred) GSD.
> 
> I don't really have a point to this story. I just wanted to post about it because today I'm looking at this unfortunate dog and I'm looking at these well-meaning adopters who want to help her, and it's like "man I wish this was not a situation that existed in the world" but it is, so welp, what are you gonna do.


I agree with the bolded part....I also think people mislabel fear a lot...I know I did until I really started working and gaining experience with loads of different dogs....I can't tell you how many times I hear "he's protective....he's shy....he's untrusting"....all excuses and write offs for a dog that is, 9 times out of 10...scared out of his wits.


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## shepherdmom

TrickyShepherd said:


> I guess I missed the memo when I picked out Storm.......
> 
> I have one of those crazy, hyper, working line terrors....
> 
> She's high drive and will work until she drops...
> 
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> That crazy beast is my constant companion. We are a pet home first, and work our dogs because we enjoy it and because we have a passion for our dogs, this breed, and the work they do.... not because they have to. In fact, my friendliest, most trustworthy, least destructive, and easiest house dog I have IS my working line.
> 
> There are extremes in every end of the spectrum, in every line of GSD, in every breed of dog, in every animal domesticated as pets, and in everything we humans do. I currently have an 'extreme' in both the Am Lines, and GSL...... I can tell you (general you) right now with absolute certainty, I would NEVER trust Duke in a pet home with children or other animals......SL's are not 100% all perfect house/family pets, and vice versa is true too. Blanket statements really get old after a while.
> 
> I agree that a GSD should be able to come home from work (whether that be a sport, professional work -police/military/SAR etc, or a good romp in the backyard or the local trails), and be a family pet. However, I definitely don't agree with morphing them into something they are not to fit the wants of the typical lazy American pet dog. What happened to picking the breed that fits the person's lifestyle, family, and personality? Now it's more like a darn SIMs game.... pick your breed *click*, coat color *click*, personality traits *click*, size *click*..... Hmmm, we might as well start making it the norm to pick our babies out too...... I'd like a female *click*, blond hair *click*, green eyes *click*.... sadly technology is getting there.... it's not as "futuristic" as most think. :crazy: Disturbing.


You are a working home. 

This is a pet home. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/finding-right-puppy/369098-considering-gsd.html


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## Jack's Dad

Loved your post and your dog Tricky Shepherd.


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## Saphire

selzer said:


> I waited and someone else mentioned the BS before I did. So it doesn't go unnoticed. If you are in the position of enforcing the various rules of the board, then you should follow them.
> 
> The dude whose post I quoted might have felt much freer to make a personal attack because of your statement. If you do not believe that people whose names are pretty well known here, cannot begin or avert a hen party around here, than I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you. However, I will not call your opinion poop.
> 
> You can easily disagree with people without opening the door for others to ridicule, etc. Instead of saying the idea that working line dogs can't be pets is bull doodoo, you could say, here is my working line dog, see it's a pet, so I have to disagree with you there. One, because you are an admin encourages others to ridicule, while the other is neutral.


Oh please!!

Honestly......grown adults are offended by the initial of "BS" or "poop" or " bull doodoo".....unbelievable.

And shame on you Chris for havig a strong opinion when something you are so passionate about and work so hard to produce is being attacked without merit...honestly, what were you thinking. As a mod you cannot possibly be allowed to do such a thing.

I am going back to my desk to wait for the yard monitor to give me a detention.....unbelievable!


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## selzer

TrickyShepherd said:


> I guess I missed the memo when I picked out Storm.......
> 
> I have one of those crazy, hyper, working line terrors....
> 
> She's high drive and will work until she drops...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She bites..... and loves it! Fast, agile, and hard hits & grips!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's her second job though....
> 
> This is ALL my dogs' 1st for most important job:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That crazy beast is my constant companion. We are a pet home first, and work our dogs because we enjoy it and because we have a passion for our dogs, this breed, and the work they do.... not because they have to. In fact, my friendliest, most trustworthy, least destructive, and easiest house dog I have IS my working line.
> 
> There are extremes in every end of the spectrum, in every line of GSD, in every breed of dog, in every animal domesticated as pets, and in everything we humans do. I currently have an 'extreme' in both the Am Lines, and GSL...... I can tell you (general you) right now with absolute certainty, I would NEVER trust Duke in a pet home with children or other animals......SL's are not 100% all perfect house/family pets, and vice versa is true too. Blanket statements really get old after a while.
> 
> I agree that a GSD should be able to come home from work (whether that be a sport, professional work -police/military/SAR etc, or a good romp in the backyard or the local trails), and be a family pet. However, I definitely don't agree with morphing them into something they are not to fit the wants of the typical lazy American pet dog. What happened to picking the breed that fits the person's lifestyle, family, and personality? Now it's more like a darn SIMs game.... pick your breed *click*, coat color *click*, personality traits *click*, size *click*..... Hmmm, we might as well start making it the norm to pick our babies out too...... I'd like a female *click*, blond hair *click*, green eyes *click*.... sadly technology is getting there.... it's not as "futuristic" as most think. :crazy: Disturbing.


I have a question though. Your working line dog is the most trustworthy, least destructive, and easiest housedog you have had. From the get go, did you spend the same amount of time working, training, etc each of the dogs? It sounds like the typical dog that does schutzhund is out there working with their handler a whole lot. If the dog is a constant companion, and actively engaged is some type of physical and mental activity for a significant amount of time week in and week out, I would think regardless of what line, so long as the dog isn't wired wrong, it would depend on the amount of experience and commitment the owner puts into it. 

I know my first dog was a pet line/working line cross, and he was the exact opposite of everything you said, not trustworthy at all, very destructive, hard to house train and manage. But he was also my first dog. I made a lot of mistakes with him. I think that if I had that dog today, it would've been a different story.


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## ozzymama

In regards to standard, I do not think the standard for the GSD needs to change, there is no evidence of it's nearing extinction that a different breed needs to be brought in to sustain the breed. I own a Saint - I know everybody is sick of hearing about her, but Saint Bernard Dogs are giants, but in the days of yore, they were not as big as they are now, they were still giants, but they were bred for a purpose, a working purpose, however eventually much of the breeding stock was killed while working and to preserve the breed, they out crossed to Newfs, other Mastiff breeds, the problem was, that out crossing produced a dog, that was no longer suited to it's job. It became only a pet or show dog, the show people started breeding them bigger and bigger, shortening lifespans, increasing health issues. It's a ghost of a breed, same with collies - not border, Scotch Collies, they became rough or smooth and lost a lot of their working ability and by limiting a gene pool, increased health issues. Nobody wants to see this happen with GSD's. I know, I own Oz and he might be purebred/poorly bred or he might be a cross, but if I wanted a purebred and was willing to dole out a couple grand for on, I would want one bred to standard, I would expect to adjust my life to that dog, not expect a dog to fit my life. If I want that, which is how I have bough my dogs in the pas, I go to a rescue or a pound, where someone has determined what drive the dog has, what training I need to do and I decide to adjust to it. We're in the market for a horse when my daughter is old enough for 4-H, we're not buying a blue-blood Arabian if she's going to barrel race, just as we're not buying a paint pony for steeple chase or dressage - sure some can do it, but we're going to buy specific to what we need, not expect the animal which has been selectively bred for particular characteristics to conform o others on our whim. It is OK to like dogs out of standard, it is OK to like dogs with characteristics which are not known breed traits, bu it is not right to specifically breed for that. It is even worse to change a standard to conform to marketability and I think, therin is the true definition of a reputable vs non-reputable breeder. There are enough WTF happened here dogs from reputable breeders to fulfill any niche. Over sized happen because science is not 100%, weird colors happen from mutated, recessive genes. It's like when a red head suddenly pops up in a family, or one child is 6ft tall and the other barely makes 5"5". In the meantime, breeders should breed to a standard and should educate their buyers on why there is a standard and why it is necessary. Those of us who like off things, we can find them in rescues and pounds, we don't need to encourage breeding out of standard.


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## DaniFani

I also agree with those saying the lines with "drive" in them are easier to train and easier to live with...I think it is a "safe" assumption that it is more common to see lower nerve in a lot of the "show lines." To me this isn't that surprising...a lot of the breeders that breed showlines (not talking about reputable) don't have much they do in the way of temperament testing...they just don't...the biggest test is "does he like my kids." Or that volgard test (sp? which I think is crap...my deceased dog's breeder went on and on about that and look at what happened to my guy). Working breeders tend to not want to work with nervy dogs....so they will probably wash those ones out. It's all about what is more important to the breeder. If you are focusing only on "pet dogs" but aren't doing anything to prove the dog's stability outside the home, pushing the breeding dogs into uncomfortable (stressful situations) you can not, without a doubt, say that the dog isn't going to be fearful. 

If your focus is temperament, GREAT...but someone just saying the proof of that stability is a dog in a family,not biting....well that's not proof to me...and I can see how nervy dogs would easily slip by in the breedings and continue to be bred because they aren't being tested at all...plenty of dogs are amazing in their home...take them out of it and they turn into a mess....because there is no check system, how would those dogs get caught?

Shepherdmom, I believe just as strongly as you do...but that it's the showlines and some of the breeders you would support that are creating the problems you are so much against (still have yet to see your example of a working line...everything you've shown so far looks like byb showlines)...however, I also believe that most of the bites we see today are out of fear, from weak nerves. Why should a family home not get a dog with just as strong of nerves as someone with a working dog??? In order to get that the dogs need to tested...That's why I generally only support breeders working their OWN dogs...not having someone else title them. You don't know what you have unless you are actively working/training and putting the dog into uncomfortable situations to see it's reaction (I'm talking a walk down main street, a hike in the woods, a busy gas station)...look how many people come on here talking about how their 4 month old puppy is scared of everything...it shouldn't be....that fear can manifest itself into fear biting...I will NEVER live with a fearful dog again...it is terrible....

I think there are absolutely working dogs in homes that can't handle them, but I don't think it's where the biting/aggression problem you speak of is coming from...I also think the byb's are starting to grab onto this "I want a dark sable GSD like the police dogs" and they are mixing in a working line with their showlines to get that sable coat....I think it used to be, you see a sable, you pretty much know it has a working pedigree...well...I don't think that's the case anymore. Once again we are shifting to a COLOR that everyone likes...except this is dangerous, because when you mix show lines with working lines, I've seen that result in some pretty terrible outcomes....


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> I have a question though. Your working line dog is the most trustworthy, least destructive, and easiest housedog you have had. From the get go, did you spend the same amount of time working, training, etc each of the dogs? It sounds like the typical dog that does schutzhund is out there working with their handler a whole lot. If the dog is a constant companion, and actively engaged is some type of physical and mental activity for a significant amount of time week in and week out, I would think regardless of what line, so long as the dog isn't wired wrong, it would depend on the amount of experience and commitment the owner puts into it.
> 
> *I know my first dog was a pet line/working line cross, and he was the exact opposite of everything you said, not trustworthy at all, very destructive, hard to house train and manage. But he was also my first dog. I made a lot of mistakes with him. I think that if I had that dog today, it would've been a different story*.


But this isn't the type of dog she was talking about or owns....like I've said earlier...I think a LOT of byb's are trying to cater to the new "dark sable" market, so they are randomly throwing in a working line...since they know nothing about GSD's, let along a WORKING line, this is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't think you can compare the two...and I am starting to think that the dogs that so greatly influenced shepherdmom's opinion were exaclty what you just described...a showline/working line cross....not a working line from a breeder working their dogs...just a guess....it's the same stuff, different attribute...now we are seeing people want the sable...so now we may be starting to see sable dogs that have a mish mash of showlines, working lines, etc...which now you are combining dogs with high drives, appropriate (or not appropriate aggression) with ones with low thresholds and bad nerves....but hey...we wanted a sable pet dog....oy vey


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## DaniFani

ozzymama said:


> In regards to standard, I do not think the standard for the GSD needs to change, there is no evidence of it's nearing extinction that a different breed needs to be brought in to sustain the breed. I own a Saint - I know everybody is sick of hearing about her, but Saint Bernard Dogs are giants, but in the days of yore, they were not as big as they are now, they were still giants, but they were bred for a purpose, a working purpose, however eventually much of the breeding stock was killed while working and to preserve the breed, they out crossed to Newfs, other Mastiff breeds, the problem was, that out crossing produced a dog, that was no longer suited to it's job. It became only a pet or show dog, the show people started breeding them bigger and bigger, shortening lifespans, increasing health issues. It's a ghost of a breed, same with collies - not border, Scotch Collies, they became rough or smooth and lost a lot of their working ability and by limiting a gene pool, increased health issues. Nobody wants to see this happen with GSD's. I know, I own Oz and he might be purebred/poorly bred or he might be a cross, but if I wanted a purebred and was willing to dole out a couple grand for on, I would want one bred to standard, I would expect to adjust my life to that dog, not expect a dog to fit my life. If I want that, which is how I have bough my dogs in the pas, I go to a rescue or a pound, where someone has determined what drive the dog has, what training I need to do and I decide to adjust to it. We're in the market for a horse when my daughter is old enough for 4-H, we're not buying a blue-blood Arabian if she's going to barrel race, just as we're not buying a paint pony for steeple chase or dressage - sure some can do it, but we're going to buy specific to what we need, not expect the animal which has been selectively bred for particular characteristics to conform o others on our whim. It is OK to like dogs out of standard, it is OK to like dogs with characteristics which are not known breed traits, bu it is not right to specifically breed for that. It is even worse to change a standard to conform to marketability and I think, therin is the true definition of a reputable vs non-reputable breeder. There are enough WTF happened here dogs from reputable breeders to fulfill any niche. Over sized happen because science is not 100%, weird colors happen from mutated, recessive genes. It's like when a red head suddenly pops up in a family, or one child is 6ft tall and the other barely makes 5"5". In the meantime, breeders should breed to a standard and should educate their buyers on why there is a standard and why it is necessary. Those of us who like off things, we can find them in rescues and pounds, we don't need to encourage breeding out of standard.


Nice post. Like the equine comparisons


----------



## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> Any more questions? I've got lots more pictures.


Actually, I have a question. 
Is all of your experience comprised of rescue dogs?


----------



## TrickyShepherd

shepherdmom said:


> You are a working home.
> 
> This is a pet home. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/finding-right-puppy/369098-considering-gsd.html


Incorrect. Due to a full schedule, and my health declining.... we train on the field once a week. I work my dogs at home 1-2 a week, but it's nothing more than obedience that any pet home should do... only difference is, I use german commands and some of them are just a little different in aesthetics. 

I do not consider this a 'working home'... If we were trialing and working these dogs on the field 3-4 times a week in all the phases, I'd say otherwise. Like I said previously.... I am first and foremost, a pet home with a passion for the dog sports and seeing my dogs natural instincts and willingness to work come out. I'd like to consider us an experienced active pet home. Eventually, yes, I'd like to be a full working home.... but, even then, my dogs 1st job is a pet and my loyal companion. I except that of every single dog that enters this home... no matter what type of home I provide, pet or working.



selzer said:


> I have a question though. Your working line dog is the most trustworthy, least destructive, and easiest housedog you have had. From the get go, did you spend the same amount of time working, training, etc each of the dogs? It sounds like the typical dog that does schutzhund is out there working with their handler a whole lot. If the dog is a constant companion, and actively engaged is some type of physical and mental activity for a significant amount of time week in and week out, I would think regardless of what line, so long as the dog isn't wired wrong, it would depend on the amount of experience and commitment the owner puts into it.
> 
> I know my first dog was a pet line/working line cross, and he was the exact opposite of everything you said, not trustworthy at all, very destructive, hard to house train and manage. But he was also my first dog. I made a lot of mistakes with him. I think that if I had that dog today, it would've been a different story.


Sure, I'd be happy to answer that. 

Absolutely. All my dogs have been worked with the same.... some have done different sports/events (different drives, health, and interests). I work with all of them in some way, and everyone gets properly exercised. Storm doesn't get dibs on any more time than the others, and she's actually the last one brought into the house... not the first. So if anything, if I failed anywhere due to time/patience/training etc... it would have been way more likely with her.

Storm just has strong nerves and an amazing temperament & personality. She knows how to 'flip the switch'. I know many may not believe this.... but, she's actually a better house dog than my goldens, I had a much easier time working with her around the house. 

---As a side note (not to anyone specifically): Many of her siblings are pets as well. 1 is a police K9, a few others are sport dogs and personal protection dogs, and a good few are just pets... what all of them share: They're all family dogs. Many of which live with kids.


----------



## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> Shepherdmom, I believe just as strongly as you do...but that it's the showlines and some of the breeders you would support that are creating the problems you are so much against (still have yet to see your example of a working line...everything you've shown so far looks like byb showlines)...
> 
> Wait what? The only dogs I've shown are my own, who are from a working Czech line, a WGSL rescue that is mine and two rescues I didn't say are the problem. Just who I was currently working with.
> 
> 
> I think there are absolutely working dogs in homes that can't handle them, but I don't think it's where the biting/aggression problem you speak of is coming from...I also think the byb's are starting to grab onto this "I want a dark sable GSD like the police dogs" and they are mixing in a working line with their showlines to get that sable coat....I think it used to be, you see a sable, you pretty much know it has a working pedigree...well...I don't think that's the case anymore. Once again we are shifting to a COLOR that everyone likes...except this is dangerous, because when you mix show lines with working lines, I've seen that result in some pretty terrible outcomes....


See the problem is the show line people blame the working lines and the byb the working lines blame the show lines and the byb but both are letting dogs get into the hands of the BYB.


----------



## shepherdmom

TrickyShepherd said:


> Incorrect. Due to a full schedule, and my health declining.... we train on the field once a week. I work my dogs at home 1-2 a week, but it's nothing more than obedience that any pet home should do... only difference is, I use german commands and some of them are just a little different in aesthetics.
> 
> I do not consider this a 'working home'... If we were trialing and working these dogs on the field 3-4 times a week in all the phases, I'd say otherwise.


Once a week on the field and twice a week at home. How often do you think my dogs get worked on the field (never) and at home (they get the ball tossed for them and ran around the yard a couple of times a day) and I am un typical in the fact that I religiously make sure they get outside and exercised twice a day because I know if I don't they will find something else to keep them occupied. (eating my slippers comes to mind). You are by no means typical of the normal pet house that GSD's get to live in.


----------



## selzer

TrickyShepherd said:


> Incorrect. Due to a full schedule, and my health declining.... we train on the field once a week. I work my dogs at home 1-2 a week, but it's nothing more than obedience that any pet home should do... only difference is, I use german commands and some of them are just a little different in aesthetics.
> 
> I do not consider this a 'working home'... If we were trialing and working these dogs on the field 3-4 times a week in all the phases, I'd say otherwise. Like I said previously.... I am first and foremost, a pet home with a passion for the dog sports and seeing my dogs natural instincts and willingness to work come out. I'd like to consider us an experienced active pet home. Eventually, yes, I'd like to be a full working home.... but, even then, my dogs 1st job is a pet and my loyal companion. I except that of every single dog that enters this home... no matter what type of home I provide, pet or working.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, I'd be happy to answer that.
> 
> Absolutely. All my dogs have been worked with the same.... some have done different sports/events (different drives, health, and interests). I work with all of them in some way, and everyone gets properly exercised. Storm doesn't get dibs on any more time than the others, and she's actually the last one brought into the house... not the first. So if anything, if I failed anywhere due to time/patience/training etc... it would have been way more likely with her.
> 
> Storm just has strong nerves and an amazing temperament & personality. She knows how to 'flip the switch'. I know many may not believe this.... but, she's actually a better house dog than my goldens, I had a much easier time working with her around the house.
> 
> ---As a side note (not to anyone specifically): Many of her siblings are pets as well. 1 is a police K9, a few others are sport dogs and personal protection dogs, and a good few are just pets... what all of them share: They're all family dogs. Many of which live with kids.


I hope I get better with each dog, so that cancels out my getting older and not as much energy as I had with the first few. 

It sounds like you have a very nice dog. And I agree with working dogs in the sport/activity that the dog's makeup is most suited to.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> Actually, I have a question.
> Is all of your experience comprised of rescue dogs?


Haven't I already answered this? 3 of my dogs came from a breeder. A working SAR handler. Their sire a decorated SAR cadaver dog their dam also a decorated search dog. No fancy titles or championships and UKC papers. I often played a victim for the SAR team hiding in the desert a couple of times a week so the dogs could search for me. The rest of my dogs including an Akita, a Great Dane, and the various mixes have come from shelters or rescues.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

shepherdmom said:


> Once a week on the field and twice a week at home. How often do you think my dogs get worked on the field (never) and at home (they get the ball tossed for them and ran around the yard a couple of times a day) and I am un typical in the fact that I religiously make sure they get outside and exercised twice a day because I know if I don't they will find something else to keep them occupied. (eating my slippers comes to mind). You are by no means typical of the normal pet house that GSD's get to live in.


Well... that explains why you would want to dumb the breed down. 

All dogs... pet home, family home, working home, just for the **** of it home.... should all be trained in basic obedience and know their manners. If anything, this is a huge contribution to the problem with dogs behavior these days in my opinion. 

Those 2 days at home are.... sit, down, stand, come, and occasionally some fun little stuff like jumps. If a pet dog can't understand these..... then there's the problem. I keep my dogs active..... like any higher energy breed should. I'm an active person, so I have an active breed. My mother did/does the same with her goldens.... at almost 60, with a full time job and a house to care for, along with my elderly grandmother to tend to.... she's not a working home by any means....

The 1 day I'm at training doesn't make me a working home. In fact, those that are on the field 4 times a week would probably be extremely angry at me for calling myself that.... I'm not putting down all the work they do and the money and time they put into those dogs training and the lifestyle of being a 'working home'.

So I will agree to disagree... 



selzer said:


> I hope I get better with each dog, so that cancels out my getting older and not as much energy as I had with the first few.
> 
> It sounds like you have a very nice dog. And I agree with working dogs in the sport/activity that the dog's makeup is most suited to.



Thank you Selzer. I'd like to think so myself.... but then again, I may have some bias.


----------



## selzer

I think active working dogs are equivalent to titles. A SAR dog would have to demonstrate excellent nerve, ability to adapt to the environment, suitable to be around people of all ages, ability to use natural instincts and training and drive to get the job done.

We get carried away with the schutzhund thing I think, but most of the people here would be ok with a working k-9, as an indication that temperament is sufficient. If your dog has a CDX, an RN isn't going to tell you anything more about the dog.

I think you got your dogs from someone who is working with them, and got very nice dogs because they are putting time and effort into selecting dogs for what they want to work with and produce. 

I think mostly, when we are frustrated with people breeding for size, specifically over-size, or color, whether sable or off colors, they are using that as their claim to fame, and not necessarily doing anything else to ensure that the dogs are good specimens and should be bred.


----------



## Saphire

selzer said:


> I think active working dogs are equivalent to titles. A SAR dog would have to demonstrate excellent nerve, ability to adapt to the environment, suitable to be around people of all ages, ability to use natural instincts and training and drive to get the job done.
> 
> We get carried away with the schutzhund thing I think, but most of the people here would be ok with a working k-9, as an indication that temperament is sufficient. If your dog has a CDX, an RN isn't going to tell you anything more about the dog.
> 
> I think you got your dogs from someone who is working with them, and got very nice dogs because they are putting time and effort into selecting dogs for what they want to work with and produce.
> 
> I think mostly, when we are frustrated with people breeding for size, specifically over-size, or color, whether sable or off colors, they are using that as their claim to fame, and not necessarily doing anything else to ensure that the dogs are good specimens and should be bred.


As you are also a breeder, you know the importance of your breeding stock having titles to prove if not to yourself but to others that your dogs have everything they should thus deserving to be bred. 

A CGC or a CD title as awesome as they are, is not a test that would qualify that dog as good breeding stock.

There are many byb who truly believe they are doing nothing wrong.


----------



## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> See the problem is the show line people blame the working lines and the byb the working lines blame the show lines and the byb but both are letting dogs get into the hands of the BYB.


Soo....it seems to me that the common denominator problem are byb's?? Not sure how "both are letting dogs get into the hands of the byb"....A breeder can't possibly watch every progeny and check in to see if they are doing breedings.....Sooo, what exactly is your definition of a byb?...My definition of a byb is someone who breeds willy nilly, doesn't do much in the way of health or temperament tests, breeds with complete disregard to the standard (some don't even know the standard let alone the real history of the GSD), and most of the time their number one selling point is "it's for a family" with lofty promises of protection and loyalty....and here we are back to square one....but at least you sorta admitted it's the byb's that are the common problem in all lines...I would argue the blame lies more on the shoulders of those that creating a market for those byb's, because they want a dog that they can "handle" and instead of getting the appropriate breed they want to create their own...hmmm....

People are going to do what they do....but as I mentioned with the sable earlier....it's the greedy, "I want what I want and I want it now...regardless of what living creature gets hurt in my path" mentality that is destroying the breed...leading to breeders changing everything about the breed...leading to below standard, nervy, health problems...it's really a shame.

PP, excellent point about the St.Bernard...I have talked with others about what happened to that breed...it's sad...and THAT is why some of us won't sit back and be quiet when people want to "do whatever I want" when it comes to breeding....if you want a dog that you won't do more than throw a ball for once or twice a week...get something that was bred to be that....


----------



## cliffson1

opcorn:


----------



## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> Once a week on the field and twice a week at home. How often do you think my dogs get worked on the field (never) and at home (they get the ball tossed for them and ran around the yard a couple of times a day) and I am un typical in the fact that I religiously make sure they get outside and exercised twice a day because I know if I don't they will find something else to keep them occupied. (eating my slippers comes to mind). You are by no means typical of the normal pet house that GSD's get to live in.


This explains more about your opinion than anything you've said so far.....


----------



## sitstay

shepherdmom said:


> 30 years owning experience baby. And I help in rescue. It is the working lines time and time again that are biting the kids.


Wait. You live out in the middle of nowhere, but there is an over-abundance of working line dogs out there biting kids? 

The rescue that you work with has working line dogs often? 
Sheilah


----------



## selzer

Saphire said:


> As you are also a breeder, you know the importance of your breeding stock having titles to prove if not to yourself but to others that your dogs have everything they should thus deserving to be bred.
> 
> A CGC or a CD title as awesome as they are, is not a test that would qualify that dog as good breeding stock.
> 
> There are many byb who truly believe they are doing nothing wrong.


Eh, well, I have a schutzhund dog and I have dog with a CD/CGD/RA and I have a dog with an RN/CGC, and I have a couple that only have CGCs. You might be surprised which one is worried about the lawn mower and the TV. Eh, well, she has her strengths as well. 

I disagree with you on this, but working line people will insist on schutzhund, and that's fine for them. People who want to do schutzhund, should probably go to a breeder who does schutzhund, at least for their first dog.


----------



## DaniFani

Selzer! I didn't know you did IPO! What titles did you put on the dog?


----------



## gsdlover91

shepherdmom said:


> Why can't working dogs be for working? We can take the show dogs bread them for pet homes different colors, large, and couch potatos. Wouldn't that be better than the mess we have now?


I don't want show lines to be large couch potatoes with no drive. I got a GSD (regardless of line) because I wanted an ACTIVE companion able to run with me, able to be active and be able to tackle anything thrown at it. I like being able to try out different things with my dogs. I like being able to take him running/hiking with me, and know he wont tire out after 3 miles. GSD's ARE supposed to be active dogs with drive. If I had wanted any different....if I wanted a dog that didn't need to be exercised daily, and didn't have drive, I would have picked a different breed of dog. I like the GSD (the breed as a whole) because of its versatility. 

And why can't pet homes have working lines too? I am a pet home (even worse a college student! ) and am getting a working line as well. I want a working line because like I said, I want an ACTIVE companion, with drive. Drive makes training 10X easier. I don't want a 'high drive nervy' WL either. A WL is supposed to be balanced, and able to turn off that drive. 

For someone who understands what they are getting into, and enjoy the traits working dogs have to offer, what is wrong with a working dog going to that pet home?


----------



## shepherdmom

gsdlover91 said:


> I don't want show lines to be large couch potatoes with no drive. I got a GSD (regardless of line) because I wanted an ACTIVE companion able to run with me, able to be active and be able to tackle anything thrown at it. I like being able to try out different things with my dogs. I like being able to take him running/hiking with me, and know he wont tire out after 3 miles. GSD's ARE supposed to be active dogs with drive. If I had wanted any different....if I wanted a dog that didn't need to be exercised daily, and didn't have drive, I would have picked a different breed of dog. I like the GSD (the breed as a whole) because of its versatility.
> 
> And why can't pet homes have working lines too? I am a pet home (even worse a college student! ) and am getting a working line as well. I want a working line because like I said, I want an ACTIVE companion, with drive. Drive makes training 10X easier. I don't want a 'high drive nervy' WL either. A WL is supposed to be balanced, and able to turn off that drive.
> 
> For someone who understands what they are getting into, and enjoy the traits working dogs have to offer, what is wrong with a working dog going to that pet home?


Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


----------



## shepherdmom

TrickyShepherd said:


> Well... that explains why you would want to dumb the breed down.
> 
> All dogs... pet home, family home, working home, just for the **** of it home.... should all be trained in basic obedience and know their manners. If anything, this is a huge contribution to the problem with dogs behavior these days in my opinion.
> 
> Those 2 days at home are.... sit, down, stand, come, and occasionally some fun little stuff like jumps. If a pet dog can't understand these..... then there's the problem. I keep my dogs active..... like any higher energy breed should. I'm an active person, so I have an active breed. My mother did/does the same with her goldens.... at almost 60, with a full time job and a house to care for, along with my elderly grandmother to tend to.... she's not a working home by any means....
> 
> The 1 day I'm at training doesn't make me a working home. In fact, those that are on the field 4 times a week would probably be extremely angry at me for calling myself that.... I'm not putting down all the work they do and the money and time they put into those dogs training and the lifestyle of being a 'working home'.
> 
> So I will agree to disagree...


My Shepherds are almost 12 and 8.  They are trained in obedience a long time ago. They sit for meals, the sit to go out the door etc. They have basic manners. I have no need to work them at it anymore.


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


I just want to frame this and marvel at it for a second.


----------



## DaniFani

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


Wow.... Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours? Mines broke!


----------



## Jack's Dad

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.



This has been a decent discussion but the often false assumption made above is why sometimes it is difficult to take rescue people seriously. Not everyone dumps their dogs.


----------



## gsdlover91

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


Excuse me? You have no idea of my life, and how dare you to say any dog I will own will end up in a rescue. I haven't taken personal jabs at YOU, so why do you feel the need to take them at me? You have no idea who I am and it's pretty rude of you to make an assumption like that.


----------



## selzer

DaniFani said:


> Selzer! I didn't know you did IPO! What titles did you put on the dog?


She was titled when I bought her. I title my girls in rally and some in obedience. I have worked some in agility and some in herding as well. I have taken her to classes, but I have no reason to put a title on her. I know what she can do, we've done it all in classes. I can definitely put Rally and Obedience with her.


----------



## DaniFani

gsdlover91 said:


> Excuse me? You haveidea of my life, and how dare you to say any dog I will own will end up in a rescue. I haven't taken personal jabs at YOU, so why do you feel the need to take them at me? You have no idea who I am and it's pretty rude of you to make an assumption like that.


Don't waste your time defending yourself... Not worth it.... Let's all pause and let German Shepherdmom read our fortunes..... I for one, am beside myself with excitement.... I don't know about you guys.... this is a rare treat......


----------



## gagsd

shepherdmom said:


> Once a week on the field and twice a week at home. How often do you think my dogs get worked on the field (never) and at home (they get the ball tossed for them and ran around the yard a couple of times a day) and I am un typical in the fact that I religiously make sure they get outside and exercised twice a day because I know if I don't they will find something else to keep them occupied. (eating my slippers comes to mind). You are by no means typical of the normal pet house that GSD's get to live in.


I would hazard the statement that this is not a breeder, or a breed, problem. Rather an owner issue.
I work with PLENTY of pet dog people. They take their dogs out every single day. They participate in obedience classes. They take dogs hiking and go on play dates. They have no problems with a working dog.... whether a GSD or a Border Collie, an Aussie or a Bouvier.


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## Jack's Dad

This has been a good thread for the most part. I would much appreciate if it could die of natural causes and not be closed for lack of control and tact.

Yes in the past I have been guilty myself but I'm trying to change that.


----------



## selzer

Ok, this thread just got crazy enough. Being a Brown's fan, I always root for the underdog, but sometimes you just have to accept that there's always next year. I think I am outta here.


----------



## DaniFani

selzer said:


> She was titled when I bought her. I title my girls in rally and some in obedience. I have worked some in agility and some in herding as well. I have taken her to classes, but I have no reason to put a title on her. I know what she can do, we've done it all in classes. I can definitely put Rally and Obedience with her.


Oh, you do bite work, tracking, and obedience in classes? Or obedience/rally only? When you say "I know what she can do" do you mean in obedience only? Or do you test tracking and bite work too? I'd love to do a class or something for bitework/tracking.... Those are the two that are the more difficultof the three for me personally.


----------



## ozzymama

DaniFani said:


> PP, excellent point about the St.Bernard...I have talked with others about what happened to that breed...it's sad...and THAT is why some of us won't sit back and be quiet when people want to "do whatever I want" when it comes to breeding....if you want a dog that you won't do more than throw a ball for once or twice a week...get something that was bred to be that....


It is sad and I had no idea that occurred until after we bought one and started researching - in our defense, we wanted a Newf and found a black and White who looked like a Landseer, but dh wanted to see him in person and then Dolly bounced out and it was a year after Sandi was put down and she was sable and white and goofy and beautiful and we decided to adopt her. Plus she compliments Oz well, with his back and other problems she is enough energy for him and our lifestyle does not dictate owning a dog with higher energy, more needs than beyond simple obedience and companionship.

To the dumping a high drive dog comment, even when Oz was far higher energy and more of a handful, had my child been born earlier in his life - we would have never dumped him and comments like the one made are not only in poor taste, but leave me wondering if someone has burnt out a bit in rescue, which happens from time to time, so as distasteful as that comment, I actually think it is a cry for help.


----------



## shepherdmom

sit said:


> Wait. You live out in the middle of nowhere, but there is an over-abundance of working line dogs out there biting kids?
> 
> The rescue that you work with has working line dogs often?
> Sheilah


We get dogs from all of Northern Nevada and you would be surprised how many we get from California. We do have far more inquiries asking if we would take them than we can accommodate. I know 3 of the top of my head this last year alone. I didn't see the dogs but the owners said the were working lines... and every single one of them was looking to get rid of because of nipping at the children. Even out here in the middle of nowhere. Isn't that scary!


----------



## lhczth

*This thread has gotten far too personal in a number of cases. Please stay on topic or as best as people can and leave the personal attacks unsaid. And for those that decide to ignore my WARNING you may get a nice time out from the board for awhile.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> This has been a good thread for the most part. I would much appreciate if it could die of natural causes and not be closed for lack of control and tact.
> 
> Yes in the past I have been guilty myself but I'm trying to change that.


For you I am out of here. Thank you for being polite!


----------



## lhczth

shepherdmom said:


> I know 3 of the top of my head this last year alone. I didn't see the dogs but the owners said the were working lines... and every single one of them was looking to get rid of because of nipping at the children. Even out here in the middle of nowhere. Isn't that scary!


So, an opinion based on hearsay.


----------



## sparra

Just from my experience owning a working line in a purely "pet" home there seems to be a common misconception that if your WL dog is not out "doing" something all of the time then they become maniacs.
Our dog doesn't do anything but "be a pet" we live in the sticks so none of these wonderful dog sports that many on here talk about to be had. 
He has adapted to our life very, very well.
There are days because I have young kids that he really doesn't get a look in but he is just fine with that.....there are other days where he spends all day out chasing sheep but that is not all the time......he just fits in doing whatever.
If a dog needs hours and hours and hours of stimulation just to be a good housemate then that doesn't seem balanced to me either.
I thought a good WL is meant to be adaptable.
I don't think it is fair to say that the dog will end up in a shelter when kids come along.
Our dog takes a back seat to our kids all the time.....but he is happy, well adjusted and just goes with the flow of the household......he is not out there destroying my yard and biting kids.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have always had working lines, and some mixed working lines, I've never had a child biter, Yes I competed in obed/agility/did some herding with some of them, but for the most part they were/are my active companions. 

I'll admit Masi is probably the one that has more energy and "has to do 'something' every single day" dog I've had, or I'm getting old and I don't remember the others being this full of it Things change in life, and while I had alot of goals/ideas of doing all kinds of competing with her, my phsyical body has other ideas..

I wouldnt trade her for a bag of money, she keeps me going physically and is a delight to live with/play with;.. She is handler handicapped and I'm probably not worthy of what she could have accomplished, but she doesn't care and neither do I.

She keeps me moving

I'm so thankful for her and know when the time comes to get another, I will have no problem finding a good breeder because *they are out there*

this is my child eating czech/ddr girl, I think if she didn't have that toy , the kid (my neices son) would have been toast


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## Carriesue

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


Wow that was incredibly rude and uncalled for... you do not know Katie and have no idea how devoted she is to her dog/s.

I got a GSD for the same reasons, I wanted an active dog that could keep up with me and who could participate in sports for fun. I do not want a 100lb lazy monster... If I did I'd get another breed. The issue isn't the dog the issue is the PEOPLE getting dogs they don't research and have no business owning. GSD's are not supposed to be fat couch potatoes they are and should remain a jack of all trades working breed, extremes on either end being bad.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Jack's Dad said:


> Apparently the GSD is supposed to please all.
> 
> *Working Dog
> 
> *Confirmation Dog
> 
> *Sport Dog
> 
> *Pet Dog
> 
> *Large or Giant Dog
> 
> *Smaller, Faster Agility Dog
> 
> *Particular Color Dog
> 
> *Protection Dog
> 
> Guess what happens when specific traits are bred for?
> 
> I guess we don't need a GS dog anymore but instead multiple versions.
> Well they are certainly out there to be had and it can't all be blamed on BYBs.
> 
> Just for the record I love dogs, bred to the standard or not, but someone has to mind the store or we will wind up with no breed at all. What was wrong with the (Jack of all Trades) reputation.
> 
> Not good enough I guess, so we really must specialize in order to please everyone.
> I hope not.


The question I always have when I look at the splintering of the breed into different lines, sub-specialties (i.e. color, size, sport), etc… is what impact that segmentation has on the overall genetic health of the breed. 

I was struck by something I read a while back that suggested that some of the consumer demand for genetic health testing to determine breed-worthiness might be a real detriment to the genetic diversity within any given breed. Upon reading more about that, the argument seems sound. Couldn’t the same be said about the division of the breed into multiple lines?

So, I sometimes wonder if efforts should be made to re-unite some of the lines/sub-specialties. On top of that, it might be useful to re-write the “standard” so that it focuses more on core aspects of GSD temperament/utility vs. aesthetics/sport. 

I am not an expert by any means, these are just some thoughts I have when reading threads on this topic. I would love to learn more about this topic from those who are far more informed on GSD genetics than me.


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## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


I have kids. I had 5 dogs when my daughter was born, not one of my dogs went to a rescue. Still had the same 5 dogs when my son ease born 15 months later, still didnt dump my dogs at a rescue.

Once again, what a silly thing to say in a forum filled with members who have dogs and children.


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## gsdlover91

Sorry, had to lighten this thread up.


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## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


Always?
Nope.
Mine will be with me until he's a very, very old boy. When he was little, I kept him away from my children during the land shark phase. Not that hard, actually, but I did my research. 
Here's my unsuitable working line GSD with my son.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UvRR4c...ch?v=UvRR4cnF3OY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Mr. D

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do


You come across as jaded. 
Our female rescue bit our daughter once. Ya know why? Because the daughter provoked it by jerking and dragging her on the leash. Did we send her back? **** no. We kept her. Daughter wasn't allowed to be unsupervised with her again. We had her for 2 years until she ran off. Ironically the way she got into the shelter.
We now have Franklin. I guess I should send him back to the owners that didn't want to take care of him? The shelter so he'll be put down because of their high kill rate? Out the road? Lol... I think you have no idea what you're talking about and like to string words together for fun.


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## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> We get dogs from all of Northern Nevada and you would be surprised how many we get from California. We do have far more inquiries asking if we would take them than we can accommodate. I know 3 of the top of my head this last year alone. I didn't see the dogs but the owners said the were working lines... and every single one of them was looking to get rid of because of nipping at the children. Even out here in the middle of nowhere. Isn't that scary!


I am not surprised to hear of GSD's being nippy with young kids. As puppies they are so mouthy...more so than many other breeds so if that is not dealt with from young on it could continue long term. I wonder how many cases are simply young dogs who don't know any better....not aggressive problem dogs.


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## gsdlover91

And also, FYI - my GSD (albeit not a working line but also not a low drive show line) lives with and has grown up with my FOUR year old brother. He has *never* bitten him. My brother can climb all over him, play toys on him. Run, scream EVERYTHING. Nothing would entice him to bite a child. Kids frequently come up to him (even as young a 1-1.5 year old kid) and he is so gentle. In fact, he enjoyes playing *with* kids more than anything, I think he thinks he IS a little kid, not a dog. So GSD's biting kids is a problem with the owner. That owner isn't socializing them with kids, or if they don't, and KNOW their dog doesn't do well with kids, aren't preventing situations where a bite can occur.

And shepherdmom, no, no animal I choose to let into my life will EVER end up being dumped at a shelter. EVER. I am someone who is choosing to dedicate my life and career to animals, I can't fathom the idea of my dogs/pets not being 'important' enough to me anymore. I am not someone who has no heart and would just 'dump' a dog when my life got too busy for said dog. Truth is, my life will *never* be too busy for animals, and I do know this for sure. Sorry. And if my life ever leads me to having children, yes my kids will be raised with GSD's.


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## sparra

Sunflowers said:


> Always?
> Nope.
> Mine will be with me until he's a very, very old boy. When he was little, I kept him away from my children during the land shark phase. Not that hard, actually, but I did my research.


We handled the land shark phase easily in our household too.....it wasn't hard at all.....people just need to educate themselves more and take control of the situation but many just have no idea....


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## Merciel

LifeofRiley said:


> I sometimes wonder if efforts should be made to re-unite some of the lines/sub-specialties. On top of that, it might be useful to re-write the “standard” so that it focuses more on core aspects of GSD temperament/utility vs. aesthetics/sport.


I agree (as you know, since we've talked about it now and then in other threads) but I don't foresee it happening.

Everybody (well, everybody who is moderately knowledgeable, anyhow) wants a dog that is "proven" in some way, and how do you prove it except by going into one of the competitive venues, where specialization wins the day?

And what do the lines have to offer one another besides weakening whatever core values led to that particular splintering in the first place?

There are just so many competing and conflicting imperatives, I have no idea how good breeders figure out how to thread the needle. I'm glad and grateful that they do, of course. But it just seems so fraught with irresolvable difficulties, it's a wonder to me that they manage to get it right as often as they do.


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## JakodaCD OA

I do agree alot of dog owners don't research much (and there are many exceptions to the rule)...they impulse buy, they think they train themselves because german shepherds are soooo smart, who needs training right?? 

I had a 125lb couch potatoe, he looked nice Loved him , didn't dump him because he was what he was, but I don't want another. 

Just wanted to add the last line in my last post, I was being sarcastic Don't want anyone to think I was serious about the kid eating dog


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## Saphire

selzer said:


> Eh, well, I have a schutzhund dog and I have dog with a CD/CGD/RA and I have a dog with an RN/CGC, and I have a couple that only have CGCs. You might be surprised which one is worried about the lawn mower and the TV. Eh, well, she has her strengths as well.
> 
> I disagree with you on this, but working line people will insist on schutzhund, and that's fine for them. People who want to do schutzhund, should probably go to a breeder who does schutzhund, at least for their first dog.


There is so much more out there...not just schutzhund titles.


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## sparra

Saphire said:


> I am not surprised to hear of GSD's being nippy with young kids. As puppies they are so mouthy...more so than many other breeds so if that is not from young on I could continue long term. I wonder shoe many cases are simply young dogs who don't know any better....not aggressive problem dogs.


Yes, yes, yes.......


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## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> We get dogs from all of Northern Nevada and you would be surprised how many we get from California. We do have far more inquiries asking if we would take them than we can accommodate. I know 3 of the top of my head this last year alone. I didn't see the dogs but the owners said the were working lines... and every single one of them was looking to get rid of because of nipping at the children. Even out here in the middle of nowhere. Isn't that scary!


It is amazing that people see SchH1 or SchH3 on one or more or all of the dogs in the pedigree, and they immediately think, working lines. We really need to look at the pedigree and know what to look for to be able to tell for sure what lines a dog is from. No, just believing the owners know isn't good enough, especially if the owners are actively dumping their dog on a shelter or rescue -- that kind of indicates lack of something, knowledge maybe, commitment maybe, depends.


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## Xeph

I'm finally planning my first litter next year. My American show bitch (who should be a finished champion by then) to a *GASP* untitled European import male.

Most people won't agree with this breeding. They don't have to. They don't own the bitch. I do. And I have a waiting list full of people excited for this breeding. And I asked for input from KNOWLEDGEABLE people before choosing this particular stud dog.

I don't do IPO. I've tried. I hate it. Both due to my physical limitations and the fact that I despise some of the things asked for that I feel are pointless, I have opted to pursue other performance venues.

We herd sheep, we do agility, we do rally. I hate obedience in general and see no point in it. If my dogs are going to get obedience titles, my husband will be putting them on the dogs.

Will I be testing the courage of my dogs? On sheep, yes. Will I be testing them as man stoppers? No.

I am hoping to someday produce dogs for service work. I need high thresholds, I need dogs that aren't sharp, I need stable animals.

I like aggression in a GSD, I won't pretend I don't. I'll also admit I'll have to turn to more experienced people to help me gauge things like (human) aggression, because I can't quite see it yet, and I will not be doing IPO with my animals.

I am not about "gentle giant" dogs, but I do not like some of the hyperactive sport dogs either.

I am, technically, a working home. I have two working line dogs here. One, quite frankly, is **** to live with, and I don't find him at all enjoyable. If I can manage to place him, it will be in an experienced home with no children. It's not because he's a biter, it's because he has no real control over himself and could accidentally hurt a small child. He's totally fine with older children who could control him.

He's also a hard placement because he can't do any high impact sport work. Bad elbows and poor structure.

My other WL dog, I will admit, is not my aesthetic preference. It bothers me as much as poor temperaments bother me. He's a good working dog, will be a good service dog, but he is incredibly intense, and most pet homes probably would not do well with him. But that's not because he's a bad dog, it's because most pet homes are LAZY. 

Yeah, I said it. Most pet homes are lazy. They don't want to take the dog out for all the running and training necessary to maintain a good Shepherd.

I am not always able to get my dogs out. I won't lie. My physical limitations prevent it many days. But my second WL boy is not destructive. He does not bite people. He can lay down at my feet and chill.

We were just at the national dog show in Oaks this past weekend, and he sat on a grooming table and schmoozed with hundreds of people, no issues. He laid quietly at my feet when asked, and was ready to get up and worked when asked.

In my opinion, he's a lot of dog, but somebody else that met the same dog may think he's "nothing".

I don't agree with everything that is being bred out there, but quite frankly, doesn't really matter what I like or don't like unless I'm buying it or selling it.


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## Mr. D

Saphire said:


> I am not surprised to hear of GSD's being nippy with young kids. As puppies they are so mouthy...more so than many other breeds so if that is not dealt with from young on it could continue long term. I wonder shoe many cases are simply young dogs who don't know any better....not aggressive problem dogs.


We have overcome the bitey stage by teaching when it is acceptable to nip and who he can nip. I'm the only one ours is allowed to get rough. He doesn't with the kids, and he doesn't with the wife. He plays, he comes to me. Training and taking responsibility for our pups is key. It's really like having a kid in the aspect you have to teach what is OK and what is not.


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## Sunflowers

Those people who get rid of a German Shepherd pup because of nipping shouldn't have had a German Shepherd in the first place.


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## Merciel

Saphire said:


> I wonder shoe many cases are simply young dogs who don't know any better....not aggressive problem dogs.


A lot. It's not a hypothetical, it's a situation we're confronted with more often than I'd like.

I remember one of the first intake interviews I ever did was with a young family that had rehomed their first dog because, after a long day of having neighbors and their kids over for a barbecue, the emotionally exhausted dog went into the basement to decompress and lie down. The family's young daughter went into the basement unsupervised and tried to drag the dog back out to the gathering.

The dog gave the kid a nip on the forehead. It wasn't a serious bite (this dog was big enough to have delivered a serious bite if it wanted), but it did break the skin. The family panicked and, instead of consulting with a trainer or behaviorist or _anyone_ other than their equally uneducated neighbors, rehomed the dog. (To their credit, they at least made efforts to choose a suitable home, and kept in touch with the new owners, so it's not like the story ended poorly for that particular dog.)

Then they came to our rescue wanting to adopt a Golden Retriever mix because _of course_ such a dog would automatically be a perfect family pet with no training, just based on its breed. 

(Everybody thinks this, btw, it's why we always get a dozen+ applications on any Golden Retriever mix within the first 24 hours it's on Petfinder.)

Anyway I was really not excited about adopting another dog out to this family, but they weren't _bad_ owners, just clueless ones who overreacted to a preventable situation that was really their fault.

It happens aaaaaaallll the time. Constantly. Just unrealistic expectations + inability to read stress + poor management.


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## LifeofRiley

Saphire said:


> I wonder how many cases are simply young dogs who don't know any better....not aggressive problem dogs.


Most of them. At least, that has been my experience in rescue.


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## LifeofRiley

Merciel said:


> I agree (as you know, since we've talked about it now and then in other threads) but I don't foresee it happening.
> 
> Everybody (well, everybody who is moderately knowledgeable, anyhow) wants a dog that is "proven" in some way, and how do you prove it except by going into one of the competitive venues, where specialization wins the day?
> 
> And what do the lines have to offer one another besides weakening whatever core values led to that particular splintering in the first place?
> 
> *There are just so many competing and conflicting imperatives, I have no idea how good breeders figure out how to thread the needle. I'm glad and grateful that they do, of course. But it just seems so fraught with irresolvable difficulties, it's a wonder to me that they manage to get it right as often as they do*.



Yes, it almost seems like a Catch 22 at times. 

The more I learn about the world of purebred dogs, the more I admire good breeders... there should be some sort of titling for great breeders so that they can better distinguish themselves from the rest. There are certainly some on here that I would think have the equivalent of a PhD on the GSD.


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## onyx'girl

shepherdmom said:


> warning anecdotal story:
> 
> Our rescue placed a dog in a good home passed all background checks who already had one of our previous dogs. Nice people, nice family. Husband got injured at work, got addicted to pain killers, got abusive. Wife took kids and ran to a women's shelter. Dogs were left in yard to fend for themselves. One broke out found running starving out in desert 3 weeks later. Life Happens. Most people have the best intentions but it doesn't always work out.
> *
> I'm sure Chris you are very careful where you place dogs. Hopefully they always have good homes. But why take the chance? Why can't working dogs be for working? We can take the show dogs bread them for pet homes different colors, large, and couch potatos.* Wouldn't that be better than the mess we have now?


Um, when any GSD is well _bred_ it is a well bred GSD. SL or WL. The ones that are just bred to make puppies are the ones that is making the mess(not the dogs, the people!) I have mixed lines(SL/WL), and mixed lines(BYB), and mixed lines(Czech/WG WL) and the one with the well thought out breeding is very different compared to the other mixed lines. He's biddable, stable temperament, balanced in his drives and confident in all situations. That, is a dog anyone could live with happily and joyfully. and guess what, he's a working line. The other two have to be managed and are limited in what they are able to do because of temperament and structure.


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## Nigel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Titles are a limited way of assessing a dog's temperament, drives, nerves and character. The best way is for an experienced decoy and trainer to set up a variety of scenarios to test a dog. I am mainly refering to testing a dog as a potential police dog or as a representative of the breed that has high drive, courage, hardness and solid nerves. For example, I have worked a dog that to most people would look pretty impressive in bitework, and then had the dog on the sleeve on an asphalt parking lot while I raked a leaf rake across the asphalt. The dog didn't let go, but you could see he became too concerned about the rake and that showed his nerves were not what they should be. I have worked dogs that look extremely good in bitework on the field and could probably go well beyond a club dog with the right handler, but the same dog shut down on slick floors or would not engage me in the bed of a pickup truck. I have seen dogs that looked very strong in the bite work that would not engage a decoy in the water. I have seen dogs that look good but not bite a passive decoy and that needed to be triggered to bite with a prey movement. I have seen dogs that looked to have solid nerves and become overly concerned when a hot air ballon came near them. So titles only go part of the way of assessing a dog's temperament and creative assessments need to be done to try to figure out if there are significant holes in a dog's temperament


Thanks for this post!


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## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sure Chris you are very careful where you place dogs. Hopefully they always have good homes. But why take the chance? Why can't working dogs be for working?


Because not all dogs out of a working litter will be suitable for work. Those are the ones that have to go to pet homes.

That is why someone like me was able to get a pup out of a litter where one went to be a bomb dog in Massachusetts.


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## Liesje

Jack's Dad said:


> This has been a decent discussion but the often false assumption made above is why sometimes it is difficult to take rescue people seriously. Not everyone dumps their dogs.


Yup. I am involved in rescue and 2 of my 3 current dogs are rescues and I would NEVER say something like that to someone even if it might actually be true (and I would bet my house on it being entirely false in this case).


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## Liesje

LifeofRiley said:


> Yes, it almost seems like a Catch 22 at times.
> 
> The more I learn about the world of purebred dogs, the more I admire good breeders... there should be some sort of titling for great breeders so that they can better distinguish themselves from the rest. There are certainly some on here that I would think have the equivalent of a PhD on the GSD.


When I see breeders with BHOT dogs (breeder handler owner trained....meaning the breeder is competing with a dog that s/he bred and trained) I am impressed. Even if they are not lines of dogs or individual dogs I like, that's a big deal to me. Also breeders who have repeat customers. That leaves a very good impression with me.


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## hunterisgreat

I have my first litter all spoken for all from folks with direct experience with my dogs, all working homes or police service. I aim to have any breeding I do work this way


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## hunterisgreat

shepherdmom said:


> Well someday you will have a kid and then that dog you planned to work and always be there for will wind up in rescue. They always do.


I trust my male or female around strange kids. Can't say I'd be comfortable with any SL i know around strange kids. I'm pm'ing you a few private videos so you can see my dogs around kids, and see them working for comparison and contrasting. Hopefully it will help you understand the working line side of the fence more clearly.


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## Xeph

I don't think she really cares. Seems to me she thinks that the potential is just higher for a WL to bite. I don't agree, but *shrug*


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## volcano

Im bragging, but my girl fits the standard in confomation, ability, and mind. I havent ruined her, yet.


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## Stevenzachsmom

*"Just for the record I love dogs, bred to the standard or not, but someone has to mind the store or we will wind up with no breed at all. What was wrong with the (Jack of all Trades) reputation.

Not good enough I guess, so we really must specialize in order to please everyone.
I hope not."*

I completely agree with you Andy. I do not understand why people have so much problem with the "standard" or why they find it unimportant. In 1995, when I was looking for my first family dog, I had two young children. One child was deathly afraid of dogs. It was very important for me to find the right dog. I started to research breeds. (Didn't have internet.) Went to the library and read breed books. I looked at the STANDARD for each breed to help in my search. What good is the standard, if it doesn't apply?

Our first family dog was a gorgeous Samoyed with a picture perfect temperament. She was everything a Samoyed was supposed to be, according to the standard. She was the dog who helped my daughter get over her fear and learn to love dogs. She was what we needed at that moment. What a fiasco it would have been, if she had only been bred based on appearance. 

My neighbor has a gorgeous long coat, oversized German Shepherd that she bought from a breeder. He is beautiful and sweet. Sure, I would take him, if she gave him to me. LOL! He was not bred to the standard - appearance or temperament. He is timid and VERY friendly. He is a Golden Retriever that looks like a German Shepherd. People can say to each is own and it is fine to have a shepherd like this one. What's the problem? IMO, the problem is that people who don't know, might meet this neighbor dog. They "think" he is a typical GSD, which he is not. Let's say they purchase a GSD puppy that is to standard. They get something totally unexpected. Sure we hope they do more research, but people don't always. Now they are in over their heads, because they own a dog who is NOT a Golden Retriever who looks like a German Shepherd.


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## LoveEcho

Ah, the irony... someone saying the want a GSD in looks only and doesn't want to have to do research, complaining of rescues being overrun with people who didn't do their research into the GSD.... :crazy:


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## ozzymama

LoveEcho said:


> Ah, the irony... someone saying the want a GSD in looks only and doesn't want to have to do research, complaining of rescues being overrun with people who didn't do their research into the GSD.... :crazy:



Shhh... You kill the irony.

People who understand rescues, breeders, working dog people alike understand, no rescue believes in dogs out of standard, rescues and their volunteers wish they did not have to exist. They do because dogs are produced and nobody wants them. If GSD's were produced to standard, were bred to only be what they were and educated buyers, who are out there, bought them, you wouldn't see them in rescue. But breeds get popular, their progeny sold to people who will lie to breed them. The Bernese Mountain Dog, I know a couple owners, know what their breeders are doing, educating people, telling people, if you buy from XYZ, you will have issues, here is what the dog is supposed to be, here is the history, here is where irresponsible breeders are making a mistake - at least up here! The comment, oh I like your dog, is met with a terrific knowledge and caution on why they are not dogs for everyone and breeders to see and ones to avoid. Owners are becoming educated, one breed at a time. Let's make it GSD's.


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## doggiedad

GSD's are very versatile.



Jack's Dad said:


> Apparently the GSD is supposed to please all.
> 
> *Working Dog
> 
> *Confirmation Dog
> 
> *Sport Dog
> 
> *Pet Dog
> 
> *Large or Giant Dog
> 
> *Smaller, Faster Agility Dog
> 
> *Particular Color Dog
> 
> *Protection Dog
> 
> Guess what happens when specific traits are bred for?
> 
> I guess we don't need a GS dog anymore but instead multiple versions.
> Well they are certainly out there to be had and it can't all be blamed on BYBs.
> 
> Just for the record I love dogs, bred to the standard or not, but someone has to mind the store or we will wind up with no breed at all. What was wrong with the (Jack of all Trades) reputation.
> 
> Not good enough I guess, so we really must specialize in order to please everyone.
> I hope not.


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## Jack's Dad

doggiedad said:


> GSD's are very versatile.


Well they are supposed to be. They should also have excellent nerves and good health.


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## cliffson1

Andy, I have immense respect for your perspective! But it is uphill battle.


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## JakodaCD OA

My feeling is, i don't care if the dog is purple, if it doesn't have sound temperament and good health, you have nothing


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## bill

Agree 100%

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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