# No more stacking coming to America?



## car2ner

*An interesting change in standards, about time.*

Best In Show Daily

this looks interesting. The UK has made a big change in the GSD standard in regards to stacking and what it implies.

Personally I like a more natural stance. That goes for a more natural focus in obedience trials as well.


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## Stonevintage

Wow! They did it! Apparently that Cambridge report we were talking about last week had some teeth in it.

I think this is a great start. The "retraining" classes for the judges will probably get fairly interesting:surprise:

This shows it can be done. It would be interesting to hear the AKC's take on this. The KC change should make it easier for them to push toward this change here. A a huge boost for that effort. If this is indeed based on recommendations from the Cambridge report, more changes are likely to come with the dogs health in mind. Working with the judges, breeders and JQP on education.


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## SuperG

My BIL sent me this article....I thought it might be of interest to members who pursue conformation and the show ring. Probably old news perhaps.

"GERMAN Shepherds must no longer be stacked in the ring and instead shown free standing on a loose lead only."

"The KC believes the culture of double handling, ‘widely practised and condoned at breed club shows’, has a particularly detrimental effect on the temperament of dogs, who often show symptoms of enormous stress while being exhibited and at other times, the KC said. Erratic movement and apparently exaggerated conformation were other concerns which the review group looked at."

Full article...... Best In Show Daily


SuperG


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## Jax08

the KC are idiots. That is training. If the dogs aren't trained then of course there will be stress. It has nothing to do with stacking.


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## Castlemaid

I'm sorry to see the stack go, because a natural stack is just gorgeous. Of course, how often does one see a natural stack in the show ring? LOL. 

I agree with Jax - the temperament issues they are referring too has NOTHING to do with double handling - what they are seeing is the core temperament of the dogs. 

What I'm hoping for is that if they can't blame the spookyness of the dogs on double handling, they will have to admit that the dogs are nerve-bags and disqualify them. 

Naaaaa - it'll never happen! 

I wonder though, how the no-more-stacking is going to affect the physical conformation of future dogs? I've read the original article on another site, how sad is it that they have to come out with a rule that specifies that a dog should be able to stand _normally, and unsupported_. Like, wouldn't you think it was common sense that if a dog can't stand on it's own without falling over, that is NOT a good example of the breed? Yet that is why they came out with these new rules, top-level dogs were so angulated and so roached, they couldn't even stand without leaning into their handlers.


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## SuperG

The "enormous stress" is what caught my eye when reading the article...it just seemed a bit odd ....and as you mentioned a function of ineptitude by the human perhaps.

SuperG


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## Castlemaid

I merged the two threads on the topic, sorry if it messed things up some.


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## Stonevintage

I have seen my dog standing in a natural stack three times in my backyard, not just a relaxed one (she does that much more often) but a fairly exaggerated one. It's amazing to see the whole back line straight but at such a high to low angle (and still the back foreleg was not in contact with the ground (only her pads). 

Queston; If these dogs can be trained to hop up on a 6 inch stool and sit up - why can't they be trained to walk into a natural stance and hold (a comfortable less exaggerated one) when in the ring? Will that be allowed?


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## carmspack

Jax08 said:


> the KC are idiots. That is training. If the dogs aren't trained then of course there will be stress. It has nothing to do with stacking.


Nah. 
quote "who often show symptoms of enormous stress while being exhibited and at other times"

It isn't training . It reflects the basic nature of the animal. 
Observe the dogs in the parking lot, at ringside preparing to go in , you see it when the judge approaches . It's fairly obvious .

What stress is there to run around in a circle.

Spent a lot of time and energy , along with Linda Shaw , to institute temperament tests at least for the dogs going in for the respective National breed clubs , Specialty show where GV , GVX , are awarded . Those are the dogs that the fancy will choose for breeding so having influence to that faction of the breed .

Good for them to change things up. High time !


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## Jax08

Wow Batman! Carmen learned how to use the quote feature!!! lol 

My point was if you don't train for that picture and expose the dog to that picture, they could show some stress or what could be perceived as stress. But stacking and double handling has NOTHING to do with the stress itself.


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## cliffson1

I still don't know how to " quote", so I guess there's hope?.....lol


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## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> I still don't know how to " quote", so I guess there's hope?.....lol


 Ahh, those web folks. They cleverly disguised it where no one would ever look. Only a geek would know that it actually says "Quote" for you to click.


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## dogfaeries

Stonevintage said:


> Queston; If these dogs can be trained to hop up on a 6 inch stool and sit up - why can't they be trained to walk into a natural stance and hold (a comfortable less exaggerated one) when in the ring? Will that be allowed?




They can be trained to walk into a stack. Handlers do it all the time.


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## Steve Strom

Free stacking.


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## Jax08

They just need to throw some working lines in there. You know those dogs who are so in tune with their owners that the owners have to hide because they'll dig in and try to put the handler on their face? And balls? OMG...put those things away and stop screeching! My dog thinks he needs to do a bark and hold on you! 

At least that's what MAY have happened at an SV show. LOL


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## Cschmidt88

Honestly it feels more like an attempt to satisfy angry internet people rather than actually make a difference. Changing the standard, getting rid of 3 point stacking, and double handling will do nothing. (More importantly the last two don't even affect the dogs' structure, if you have any structural knowledge you can still critique a dog in a 3 point stack). For example this is what the KC standard said before that GSD that started this was placed, it clearly shows all the negative aspects of that dog as faults. Yet that dog was still placed? Clearly just having it in writing didn't work...
The Kennel Club


> *Temperament*
> 
> Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy.
> 
> 
> 
> *Body*
> 
> Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup. The back is firm, strong and well muscled. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised. Croup slightly sloping and without any break in the topline, merges imperceptibly with the set on of the tail. Short, steep or flat croups highly undesirable.
> 
> *Hindquarters*
> 
> Overall strong, broad and well muscled, enabling effortless forward propulsion. Upper and lower thigh are approximately of equal length. Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation. Seen from rear, the hind legs are straight and parallel to each other. The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical. Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.


What needs to happen is a change within the judges and breeders. I would rather see them find a knowledgeable figure in anatomy, someone like Linda Shaw, and have them create a new certification for judges. Not only that but open up or offer these things to the public too, so that the breeders can learn about correct and functional structure as well.


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## Cschmidt88

I should add, I did see that they are suspending judges until further training is complete. Which could definitely be a good thing, I just hope the education they receive is appropriate.


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## Chip18

Steve Strom said:


> Ahh, those web folks. They cleverly disguised it where no one would ever look. Only a geek would know that it actually says "Quote" for you to click.


Well I can't tell if it's a JK??


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## Dainerra

Jax08 said:


> They just need to throw some working lines in there. You know those dogs who are so in tune with their owners that the owners have to hide because they'll dig in and try to put the handler on their face? And balls? OMG...put those things away and stop screeching! My dog thinks he needs to do a bark and hold on you!
> 
> At least that's what MAY have happened at an SV show. LOL


If they don't have video, it never happened :wink2:


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## Xeph

It will change absolutely nothing. It's ridiculous. And my dogs are trained to freestack. It's not hard.


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## dogfaeries

My chunky girl is free stacked here.


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## Whiteshepherds

I know some dogs stack naturally and they can be trained to free stack but using the two pictures posted as examples, neither looks like it's free standing or natural. I thought that's what the KC was going to be requiring. (free standing, natural without exaggeration) 

I wonder if the KC would accept dogs like shown in the pictures or are they going to be looking for four on the floor, possibly allowing one leg slightly further back than the other, which is more of a natural stack. 

Article also says pasterns must be vertical. Assuming they mean more vertical than horizontal, not perfectly straight up and down?


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## Xeph

My dog is free standing naturally.

They want the dogs to naturally stand four square. It's not going to happen.

He's free standing here, too. Saw some ducks, set himself up.


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## Whiteshepherds

Xeph said:


> They want the dogs to naturally stand four square. It's not going to happen.


Why don't you think it will happen? Old habits die hard or some other reason?


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## dogfaeries

Mine always set themselves up. Here's Sage as a 5 month old puppy, and then again as an adult. I've been known to laughingly say "nice stack" when one of them stops in the middle of the yard, in a natural stack. 

ETA: she's not set up by me, standing by the MINI. She's just waiting for me to get to the car.


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## Xeph

Exactly what Diane said. My dogs free stack naturally at a very young age...like, 4-6 weeks. On the rare occasions they stand four square, they stand under themselves, so their hocks are still not vertical.

This is just standing on my porch...3 point, not hand set









Mikasa and her younger brother, free standing in my house









Same bitch + a sister. Not set up, just standing.


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## Xeph

This bitch is basically free stacking constantly, so if it looks "unnatural", I don't know what to tell you. She naturally sets herself up correctly and dynamically with no outside influence.

I just wish I were on the other side of her for this photo


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## Whiteshepherds

Xeph said:


> Exactly what Diane said. My dogs free stack naturally at a very young age...like, 4-6 weeks. On the rare occasions they stand four square, they stand under themselves, so their hocks are still not vertical.


Learn something new everyday. :smile2: Can you explain what you mean by they stand under themselves? 

My dogs will free stack but they also stand 4 square. Excuse shedding winter coat...


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## dogfaeries

Well, she seems to be missing her front feet, but you can see how she's standing anyway. Point is, they stand this way as puppies.


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## Xeph

Faye standing under herself. Not parked out


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## dogfaeries

Here's a completely naked girl, with her legs under her.


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## Stonevintage

Which of the two positions would better allow a judge to see structure best?


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## Galathiel

Anyone that's been around GSDs knows that their 'stack' is completely natural for them. When I see them stand squarely, it looks very unnatural to me, maybe because of their natural angulation, they seem to have their legs more drawn up under them than a squared off breed.


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## Stonevintage

I guess "natural" is a state of mind. But old to new, which of any breeds in these images look better able do do the job they were bred for, the old or new?

Pictures that show how 100 years of breeding has changed dog breeds | Daily Mail Online


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## LuvShepherds

How do you get your dogs to stack naturally and hold the pose for a picture? My puppy has a beautiful line, but the second I pick up a camera, he moves out of position.


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## Xeph

I basically just always have a camera and multiple dogs running at once 

Mikasa stops that way so often that it's not hard to get a picture of her. Soul is almost constantly moving, so the majority of his pictures are of him in motion.


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## Stonevintage

Mine is not outside for 10 minutes and she will go into a natural at least 2 or 3 times in that short period of time. Lately, her stance is getting lower in the rear.

In this picture she was around 18 mos, watching the mailman. Most are when she's looking at a distance for prey or something that caught her eye or anticipating and waiting for something. The trick is to be at the right angle to catch it because if you move, they move.

View attachment 378385


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## LuvShepherds

Mine is WL and always in motion outside. I need to wait until he is tired.


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## Stonevintage

LuvShepherds said:


> Mine is WL and always in motion outside. I need to wait until he is tired.


This is a rubber duck in Summer's mouth. We were playing ball and she wanted to take the "ball" to Debbie our mail lady so she could play too. She loves the mail lady (who is a GSD owner too).


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## MineAreWorkingline

My WLs stand squared off, very rarely going into a natural stack while my show line usually stands with his back feet underneath him.


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## Dainerra

all of my GSDs have stood in a natural stack. Not always but more than not. Especially if something catches their attention. Sometimes more exaggerated than others but when they come to a natural stop to look at something (called "walking a dog into the stack") they stand that way.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My WLs stand squared off, very rarely going into a natural stack while my show line usually stands with his back feet underneath him.


That's what mine does, he only stacks when he is completely relaxed. When he is alert, he is ready go to in an instant.


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## Jenny720

Free stack seems as natural as all four legs under his body but it is held only for seconds and always fail to get a shot as I would have to get my camera.


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## Whiteshepherds

I don't think I'll live long enough to understand how conformation in the show ring is judged. 

What exactly is the purpose of stacking a dog in the ring...what is the judge looking for? I always thought it was the top line among other things. 

When people say a dog looks a certain way because of the way it's stacked, (not this thread) the first thing I think of is...don't judges want to see the true conformation of the dog? If the top line is being made to look a certain way because of how the dog is positioned/stacked, rather than how it looks in it's natural state, isn't that manipulating the truth?

Is the problem in the KC that the dogs are being bred to look like they're always stacked? That's what I see. (no expert, just rookie observation) It looks like their back legs are longer than they should be maybe? And if those dogs had to stand four square they'd be high in the rear? (referring to dogs in Croffs, not pictures posted in this thread)

Picture shows WS stacked. What's the structural difference between the dog in this picture and those whose hind quarters fall so much lower to the ground when in a stack? Her leg is pretty far back but the top line seems to be staying true. Is the difference the length of the hing legs compared to the GSD, maybe the length of the pasterns?



All these questions...it's why I don't breed dogs. :smile2:


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## Dainerra

when people say that a dog doesn't look that way, it's the stack, they are referring to the people who say "my dog is square and has a straight back. he's not one of those sloped show dogs" It's simply trying to explain that conformation dogs don't walk around all day in a stack any more than a body builder walks around all day in the pose he uses during competition. 

The things that a judge is looking for in the stack is the length of the bones of the hind legs in comparison to each other and the angles of the joint. The standard has specific ratios on how the dog should be put together and part of the purpose of the stack is to allow the judge to see how the dog compares to the standard.

The position of the hind legs is slightly toward the rear, and viewed from behind the hindlegs are parallel to each other. Upper thigh and lower thigh are roughly of equal length and form an angle of approximately 120°. The thighs are powerful and well muscled.

The hock joints are sturdily built and firm; the metatarsus is vertical from the hock joint


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## Stonevintage

I think it looks better when their tails aren't lying in the dirt.:smile2:


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## Jenny720

I would imagine it helps in showing the angles and the structure of the dog as well as hide them. I do not have any show experience so someone I'm sure will better explain. I do like the natural stack. I think it's a natural pose. And as Dainerra mentioned often when seen when the dog stops in motion often to look at something. I don't like when the dog is over stacked I have seen that where the dog looks like it is poised in a very unnatural position. To me I assume the handler is trying to hide something or make the dog look different. I think a natural stack is very becoming to the German shepherd as it is a natural stance and for some reason I get very excited when Max strikes a pose- so do the kids!


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## dogma13

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't think I'll live long enough to understand how conformation in the show ring is judged.
> 
> What exactly is the purpose of stacking a dog in the ring...what is the judge looking for? I always thought it was the top line among other things.
> 
> When people say a dog looks a certain way because of the way it's stacked, (not this thread) the first thing I think of is...don't judges want to see the true conformation of the dog? If the top line is being made to look a certain way because of how the dog is positioned/stacked, rather than how it looks in it's natural state, isn't that manipulating the truth?
> 
> Is the problem in the KC that the dogs are being bred to look like they're always stacked? That's what I see. (no expert, just rookie observation) It looks like their back legs are longer than they should be maybe? And if those dogs had to stand four square they'd be high in the rear? (referring to dogs in Croffs, not pictures posted in this thread)
> 
> Picture shows WS stacked. What's the structural difference between the dog in this picture and those whose hind quarters fall so much lower to the ground when in a stack? Her leg is pretty far back but the top line seems to be staying true. Is the difference the length of the hing legs compared to the GSD, maybe the length of the pasterns?
> 
> 
> 
> All these questions...it's why I don't breed dogs. :smile2:


This is how my dog looks when he "free stacks".Seems like a more natural,less extreme posture to me.When he stands four square his feet are tucked under very slightly,not like many others that look like they are squatting.The first Gsds stood in a less extreme position,not squatting.Those dogs of long ago had incorrect structure?It is puzzling to me also


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## Jenny720

Jenny720 said:


> I would imagine it helps in showing the angles and the structure of the dog as well as hide them. I do not have any show experience so someone I'm sure will better explain. I do like the natural stack. I think it's a natural pose. And as Dainerra mentioned often when seen when the dog stops in motion often to look at something. I don't like when the dog is over stacked I have seen that where the dog looks like it is poised in a very unnatural position. To me I assume the handler is trying to hide something or make the dog look different. I think a natural stack is very becoming to the German shepherd as it is a natural stance and for some reason I get very excited when Max strikes some may be exaggerated then others. The stack reminds me of frozen motion. As if you were walking and were made to freeze in the position you would look different ( joints slightly bent)then just naturally standing still


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## carmspack

Picture shows WS stacked. What's the structural difference between the dog in this picture and those whose hind quarters fall so much lower to the ground when in a stack? Her leg is pretty far back but the top line seems to be staying true. Is the difference the length of the hing legs compared to the GSD, maybe the length of the pasterns?


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## carmspack

sorry timed out ===

the difference is -- that this dog has nice trotting dog conformation . Good example that could go into the good conformation folder .

If anything this dog is a little over stretched in the stack. That right side back foot is pulled back a little far putting the hock on an angle . The hock should be straight up and down .

Conformation has to enable a tireless enduring energy conservative trot . A gallop allow for bursts of speed , changes of direction which would be frequent in the living fence duties of this herding breed . 

Hand setting allows the handler to size up the competition and to put his/her animal on display highlighting the best feature , or a feature that is lacking in the other dogs.


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## Cschmidt88

carmspack said:


> Picture shows WS stacked. What's the structural difference between the dog in this picture and those whose hind quarters fall so much lower to the ground when in a stack? Her leg is pretty far back but the top line seems to be staying true. Is the difference the length of the hing legs compared to the GSD, maybe the length of the pasterns?


There's a couple possabilities here, one being that she is not leaning into herself. Notice how her front legs are not directly under her? That will affect her topline in a stack, and some people will actually teach to dogs to lean into the stack to exaggerate their rear. 

But can also be an issue of bone length ratio, some dogs have abnormally long tibias or lower thighs that really set the leg unbalanced. But this is something you can learn to look for. 















But here is a working line dog showing ho you can alter their appearance with the stack. IMO someone well versed in anatomy, as a judge *should be* could still tell this dog is not over angulated.









(Sorry, I just saw your other reply).


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## carmspack

yes if her foot had been placed somewhat forward to allow the hock to be perpendicular the white dog would be "correct conformation" as your illustration shows . That is what it would look like.

In the hand stack you can create a picture that reduces a cow hocked stance . The dog would buckle the moment you start to move at a walk . The cow hocked dog would stand cow hocked when just standing around. The handler hasn't had the chance to disguise or minimize a fault.
A sickle hock? You can't do much with it . I don't just mean the picture the dog makes , but the ability to use that rear for forward propulsion . 


xxxxxxx don't know what happened but part of my post got chopped 

anyway - those videos are interesting from the standpoint of hearing what is going through the mind of the judge, in this case Dave Rinke.

part one 




part two 




altogether 20 minutes of viewing


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## carmspack

yes if her foot had been placed somewhat forward to allow the hock to be perpendicular the white dog would be "correct conformation" as your illustration shows . That is what it would look like.

In the hand stack you can create a picture that reduces a cow hocked stance . The dog would buckle the moment you start to move at a walk . The cow hocked dog would stand cow hocked when just standing around. The handler hasn't had the chance to disguise or minimize a fault.
A sickle hock? You can't do much with it . I don't just mean the picture the dog makes , but the ability to use that rear for forward propulsion . 
If a dog had a narrow front , out or in at the elbows , hand setting could temporarily change the picture.

Have you seen these?

American judge Dave Rinke -- at some GSDCofA talk , reviewing high placing show GSDs , current in part one, some from the 1990's in part two. Interesting to hear what is going on in the judges mind . Shows dogs stacked, natural , trotting .






and part two


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## carmspack

a moderator can remove post 53/54 -- please --


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## dogma13

Well before they get removed...it did clarify a few things for me.So thank you Carmen!


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## carmspack

carmspack said:


> yes if her foot had been placed somewhat forward to allow the hock to be perpendicular the white dog would be "correct conformation" as your illustration shows . That is what it would look like.
> 
> In the hand stack you can create a picture that reduces a cow hocked stance . The dog would buckle the moment you start to move at a walk . The cow hocked dog would stand cow hocked when just standing around. The handler hasn't had the chance to disguise or minimize a fault.
> A sickle hock? You can't do much with it . I don't just mean the picture the dog makes , but the ability to use that rear for forward propulsion .
> If a dog had a narrow front , out or in at the elbows , hand setting could temporarily change the picture.
> 
> Have you seen these?
> 
> American judge Dave Rinke -- at some GSDCofA talk , reviewing high placing show GSDs , current in part one, some from the 1990's in part two. Interesting to hear what is going on in the judges mind . Shows dogs stacked, natural , trotting .
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA3H2A_xIOQ
> 
> and part two https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H6SCwlT11w


not this one !

the other one -- I had to attend to something , came back , erased some and accidently pasted video one twice. We don't need that one .


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## Cschmidt88

I'm sorry, I wasn't comparing the white GSD to any of the diagrams I posted. I simply used the diagram as an example for your question "Is the difference the length of the hing legs compared to the GSD, maybe the length of the pasterns?", using it to show the difference in bone length ratio for judging a dog who is truly overangulated or is just "sloping" due to the nature of the stack.  

I wasn't trying to contrast anything to said, so my apologies if my wording confused.

I really like Dave Rinke's videos, I keep those saved on my computer. I feel he is a fair judge and would love to pick his brain. Unfortunately not all judges look at the same thing, I've heard some judges referred to as "head hunters" because they'll pick primarily based on the correctness of the dog's head. In AKC GSDs there's a big issue with handlers, some judges favor certain handlers and it's extremely hard to be successful working your own dog. That's one of the reasons why so many people like the "Owner/Handler" specials. 

A friend of mine, who wasn't showing GSDs at the time, was told by a judge that her dog was good but she didn't put her up because she disliked how she was dressed. There's just so many issues there, and I have a friend who's a part of our kennel club that is a Corgi and GSD judge who refuses to judge GSDs anymore as she says people will get upset if she truly chooses based off the soundest dog, instead of which is flashiest or handled by a particular handler.


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## Stonevintage

No dog bred to work ever stands with their tail lying in the dirt. I don't care. This is a huge tell that it's not a natural stance. THINK!


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## Xeph

Uh, they might if their tail is ridiculously long. Soul's tail is ludicrous. Long and set low.


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## Dainerra

Stonevintage said:


> No dog bred to work ever stands with their tail lying in the dirt. I don't care. This is a huge tell that it's not a natural stance. THINK!


easily possible. depends on the length of the tail, the way the dog is standing, if they are a bit shorter in leg than body, etc etc


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## Xeph

Perfectly natural...tail on the ground









His sister can do the same, but prefers to hold her tail up. He lets his drop.


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## Galathiel

Yup, Varik has a lonnng tail. When he was a puppy it was on the ground when he was just standing as it was longer than his legs hehe. He's grown into it now, but it's still long!


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## Jenny720

Wow I did not see notice that position of the Wgs front legs now brought to my attention very noticeable. 

German shepherds tails are long which is very natural and some are longer then others in proportion to the body. I suppose if "people" felt their long tail would get in the way of work it would of been docked many moons ago. There are quiet a few pictures of dogs on here with their tails touching the floor in one particular position can't see how it would interfere in how they worked. The position of the tail is low when a dog is relaxed and is carried higher in motion, excited etc. The dogs seen in a stacked position are made to stay in that particular position for the judge to view but that actual stack is only held but for a brief moment of time. Max's tail skims the floor in when he is just standing with all 4 legs under him when he was a pup his tail more then skimmed the floor in any position- lol. My working line tail was just as long as my asl tail it did not and does not interfere with their motion at all. They don't canter, gallop , trot with their tail dragging on the ground.


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## Jenny720

I'm glad to see the judges are getting educated and I hope they are penalized for putting up dogs because of the politics of "whose who"or whatever else goes on as they should know many people are watching.


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## Whiteshepherds

Cschmidt88 said:


> There's a couple possabilities here, one being that she is not leaning into herself. Notice how her front legs are not directly under her?


I didn't until you mentioned it but very obvious now. :smile2: 

Thanks for the help, Carmen too. It's all really interesting. Off to watch video's in a few.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jenny720 said:


> German shepherds tails are long which is very natural and some are longer then others in proportion to the body. I suppose if "people" felt their long tail would get in the way of work it would of been docked many moons ago.


I always thought dogs communicated at least in part, with their tails...wonder how breeds with docked tails talk to each other? 

I think if the dogs tail is too long when standing naturally (as opposed to being stacked) it can be a grooming issue for the LC's. My LC has a very thick tail with really long feathering. If I don't trim off the length it acts as a yard sweeper collecting leaves, pine needles, dead bugs (eww) as she walks. The picture is right before she was ready for another trim. You can see how wispy and long it is at the bottom in a natural stance...everything gets stuck in it. It's the feathering that causes the problem, at least for my dog.


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## Jenny720

Yeah I'm not thinking or ever thought they should have ever docked gsd's tails. Don't understand it to be a true concern. If they were working on a farm or herding sheep as originally bred to do their long tail would be useful swishing the flies away. The tail is carried and does not drag behind the dog so don't see it as a concern even if the tail is touching the ground standing still. 

I enjoyed the videos. I remember growing up thinking all the all the dog in shows were perfect of course now as an adult
consumed by reality nothing is perfect.


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## Jenny720

Max's tail at 6 months resembled more of tree branch or a thin log then a tail- lol! It did not slow him down carrying that around!


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## Cschmidt88

Whiteshepherds said:


> I didn't until you mentioned it but very obvious now. :smile2:
> 
> Thanks for the help, Carmen too. It's all really interesting. Off to watch video's in a few.


There's a lot of aspects of stacking that can change a dog's look, for example placing the dog's inner foot farther up can exaggerate the look of a steep croup.

But here's a picture of my guy to show, one he is leaning into himself and the other he isn't. You can see how it affects his topline. Although he does not have the rear angles of many show lines so it's not as drastic of a difference.


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## Jenny720

Whiteshepherds said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> German shepherds tails are long which is very natural and some are longer then others in proportion to the body. I suppose if "people" felt their long tail would get in the way of work it would of been docked many moons ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought dogs communicated at least in part, with their tails...wonder how breeds with docked tails talk to each other?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think if the dogs tail is too long when standing naturally (as opposed to being stacked) it can be a grooming issue for the LC's. My LC has a very thick tail with really long feathering. If I don't trim off the length it acts as a yard sweeper collecting leaves, pine needles, dead bugs (eww) as she walks. The picture is right before she was ready for another trim. You can see how wispy and long it is at the bottom in a natural stance...everything gets stuck in it. It's the feathering that causes the problem, at least for my dog.
Click to expand...


This often happened to my collie! My brother n law has boxer with a docked tail man that tail can wiggle! They seem to use their whole body to wiggle!


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## carmspack

quote cschmidt "I'm sorry, I wasn't comparing the white GSD to any of the diagrams I posted"

hi. I was fully aware of that , however, the white gsd's hind leg conformation was a fleshed out example
of the skeletal illustration. She would fit the correct angulation example.

So that now brings me to another point -- the videos !

I posted these not to show what I thought were ideal examples of ideal and correct conformation because they are NOT.

THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

I can't imagine any of them , well maybe one or two , that could fulfill the pastoral duties required of the GSD . 

Function requires moderate balanced conformation which allows a variety of gaits to be employed , changes for those bursts of speed (gallop) to target a breakaway sheep , the expansive reach of the extended trot to cover the distance when herd in motion (living fence) and the most used collected trot , which is an easy slow trot when the herd is grazing - at rest . 
Agile , energetic , efficient . Variable speeds .

In the show ring you see one speed . There is a lot of bobbling over the pelvis - up and down motion , which is not efficient 
Other comments , lots of poor flat feet , some clamped tails - tight in the stand for examination , and others when in motion , heads -- expression -- no real "stallion" masculine males ---
I can't imagine this movement on uneven turf or pot holes . I can't imagine scaling those 6 foot barriers (lack of rear power) or working steep inclines . 
So it was interesting to listen in on the judges thinking process. 

Did anyone notice that when he opened his session (video one) he asked : does it look like a german shepherd ,
does it act like a german shepherd , and then does it move like a german shepherd? 
The answers should require the judge to have an image of the standard's ideal in his mind to which to compare his competition .
The video moves on to How to Evaluate the German Shepherd -- Judging -- and then they use a West German Show line-- Yasko Farbenspiel as a model? Why ? Why not use one of your "own" ?

Those videos are a few years old. 

Has he read the Shaw book? 
Wonder if down the line there will be changes , meaning improvements ?


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## Cschmidt88

Saying I like a judge doesn't mean I agree 100% with what they say. He still has good points to learn from. But I like what I've seen Dave put up compared to other judges, granted I have not met all judges of course, just local ones and from what you can see placed at largely recognized events. Megabucks would be an example of that. 

I still enjoy the videos, it's hard to find so many gaiting clips in one video and it's good food for thought. 

That said, so far Linda Shaw's representation of the GSD is my favorite so far. I love talking to her as well, very nice lady (as I'm sure you're well aware of as I know you're well acquainted) who has been nice enough to evaluate my dogs with me. I definitely recommend her stuff for those wanting to learn GSD conformation.


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## Jenny720

Megabucks I like him- Max my dog is a megabucks grandson! I have Linda Shaw's book to tons of great info I always wanted to learn about the confirmation.


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## LuvShepherds

Cschmidt88 said:


> Saying I like a judge doesn't mean I agree 100% with what they say. He still has good points to learn from. But I like what I've seen Dave put up compared to other judges, granted I have not met all judges of course, just local ones and from what you can see placed at largely recognized events. Megabucks would be an example of that.
> 
> I still enjoy the videos, it's hard to find so many gaiting clips in one video and it's good food for thought.
> 
> That said, so far Linda Shaw's representation of the GSD is my favorite so far. I love talking to her as well, very nice lady (as I'm sure you're well aware of as I know you're well acquainted) who has been nice enough to evaluate my dogs with me. I definitely recommend her stuff for those wanting to learn GSD conformation.


This is way off subject but since we are talking about dogs and how they look, I love your profile picture with you and the dog. Your dog looks happy, like he's having the best time heeling with you.


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## dogma13

I've learned quite a bit from this thread and especially the videos.It's so fascinating to see how just how much small differences (and larger ones)have a huge effect on movement.And I finally REALLY see how a stack shows bone structure.So thanks to all for taking the time to school us rookies.


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## Cschmidt88

LuvShepherds said:


> This is way off subject but since we are talking about dogs and how they look, I love your profile picture with you and the dog. Your dog looks happy, like he's having the best time heeling with you.


Thank you ^^" He is a fun boy to work with and loves to do whatever is asked of him.


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## LuvShepherds

Cschmidt88 said:


> Thank you ^^" He is a fun boy to work with and loves to do whatever is asked of him.


I can tell. You are both having fun.


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## dojoson41

*UK on stacking*



car2ner said:


> Best In Show Daily
> 
> this looks interesting. The UK has made a big change in the GSD standard in regards to stacking and what it implies.
> 
> Personally I like a more natural stance. That goes for a more natural focus in obedience trials as well.


An alert dog, ie German shepherd will stack when something of interest catches their eyes; my dog does it all the time on the farm, no training what so ever. OOH a squirrel=stack, a rabbit=stack, a spider=stack, a cricket-slurp-yum!eewww. Stack for the camera?un-un, nope not going to happen>. Meany. I do like the 3 point natural stack, I think UK goes overboard concerning dogs sometimes. SOooo what do the Germans say?


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