# STAY! And I MEAN it!



## discodog (May 9, 2008)

Hi all!

Kira's 13 months old now. Beautiful dog weighing in at a steady (for the past month or so) 68.5 lbs. She's pretty good about following most commands and others comment how well-trained she is (even though I think she still has a lot of work to do!). I do have one question:

I'd like Kira to stay next to me on the front porch when people arrive or walk by. She's not on her leash, usually, when we're all out front. I live on a cul-de-sac so no danger of her getting hit by cars and all the neighbors know her and don't fear her (and she, them). However, if a out-of-neighborhood kid comes biking, skating, running down the street and gets too close to our property, Kira will bolt off after the poor child, barking, and scare the snot out of the kid! She means no harm but she definately is letting the stranger know she's here and they'd better be careful! I'll call Kira and she'll come back reluctantly, wanting to finish her "lecture" to the stranger.

Another example occurred yesterday as I sat out on the porch waiting for a friend of mine to drive over to pick me to go out for the evening. Kira was out on the porch with me and when I saw my buddy's truck coming down the street I called Kira and she came and sat by my side. My friend parked in front of my house and got out of the car. I told Kira to "Stay" and she did but you could feel the tension in her as my friend (whom she'd never met) came around the car and started walking up our driveway. He stopped and looked at her, then said, "Come Here!" and she took off after him! Barking right next to his leg and he patted her and she calmed down as I came forward and told her it was alright. 

I really want Kira to stay on the porch with me regardless of what is happening out in the street, on the sidewalk or in our driveway. I want her to remain at my side until I say it's ok to go. Any suggestions?


----------



## discodog (May 9, 2008)

OH......one more thing. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but please don't respond with comments like, "You shouldn't be letting your dog run loose like that" or "You're going to get sued if Kira bites someone". I'm not looking for advice on whether or not I should be letting Kira off-leash in my front yard. I'm looking for pointers on how to get her to "STAY" regardless of distractions. And I don't want the leash to be a "reminder" to obey. I want her to obey because she's been taught to obey and stay put until I say otherwise. Thanks!!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

You may be expecting WAY too much out of her. You sound like you're adamant on only having it one way, the way you describe, but having her loose just may not be right for her as an individual. I would also love to have my dog stay despite distractions as you post above, but in a regular daily life situation I might as well plant some quarters hoping for a money tree; this would be more likely than expecting my dog to stay within my yard no matter what. It's not a training issue, it's just who he is- a fearful, reactive, highly prey-driven dog. To expect my dog to act the way you describe would be putting my dog and the public in harm's way.

I strongly recommend NOT letting her loose due to what you describe. First off, she is 13 months old, a young teenager, and you know what happens when you expect too much from teenagers- she's going to give you the furry finger. By all means, work with her and train her BUT in the meantime, keep her on a long line so you can enforce your training and keep her (and others) safe. 



> Quote:I want her to obey because she's been taught to obey and stay put until I say otherwise.


That's all sunshine and happiness but remember you are dealing with a dog. The reality is that even the best dog is not 100% reliable. Your dog may never reach anywhere near that. To expect otherwise again may put her and others in harm's way. And honestly, if I walked by your house and your dog charged me, I would be well within my rights to knock her over the head with a stout walking stick, kick her, or even shoot her. Why? Because a 70 pound GSD is charging me barking. Do you think I'm going to wait to see if she's friendly or just bluffing? Heck no! I'm not going to take the chance of an attack. If she charges me, she's going down first and then I'll be asking questions, ESPECIALLY if I am walking my dog. Again, she may mean no harm, as you say, but there is no way I am going to take that risk. Keep this in mind as well as one day she may charge the wrong person and you'll end up with an injured dog or even a dead dog and YOU will be in the legal wrong on all counts if the person was just passing by.

If you're set on training for this, that's perfectly fine as this is a wonderful goal. You may never achieve this goal but you may end up with a very well trained dog. Get some long lines and treats and a clicker, get away from ALL distractions, then set to work teaching focus, a reliable recall, a solid emergency down command (LIFESAVER), and a darn good stay/wait. When she's good in no distractions and with very small distances (just a few feet), slowly up the ante. Don't move too fast! You don't want to move from living room to rush hour Manhattan. A training class will be a big help for this. 

Please keep an open mind and don't expect more from your dog than she is capable of giving! You may find her more reliable when she's at least twice her age.


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Then perhaps a response from me is not necessary; albeit it sounds like my dog in some respects.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

since you don't want advice on leashing Kira i'm going to tell you how i taught my dog to stay. note, i'm talking about my dog so when the leashing part comes up don't be upset because i'm talking about my dog.

when i taught my dog to stay i would have him sit in front of me.
i would say stay and give him the hand signal to stay simultaneously. after saying stay i would take one step backwards. i would wait 3 seconds and go back to him and praise and treat.
in the begining when he was learning stay my GF would hold him in place by a leash. we did this same exercise 5 or 7 times a day. why 5 or 7 times a day, i don't know but it worked. each session only lasted 5 minutes or so.

as my dog started learning stay i started making it harder and harder. as he progressed one step backwards became 3 steps backwards, then 5 steps then 10steps and so on. now my GF would unleash him and we didi the same thing. so now he's staying. now i say stay while giving the hand signal stay but i start to move out of his sight. now the easiest way i found to duck out of sight
was to train in the house. i could make him stay in the hallway and walk into the bathroom for a few seconds. or i could have him stay in the kitchen and i walk out the front door. it was easier for me to get out of his view indoors.

outdoors i would tell him to stay and hide behind a tree or a car or whatever. i would take him to a store and place him in a down stay. i would go inside the store and step off to the side so i could watch him. sometimes i would place him next to the wall
of a door store and take his leash and lay it out in front of him.
then when i stepped inside the store i could stand next to the wall he's laying against and i could see the outstretched leash. i watched the leash so i could tell if he was moving.

with all of his stay exercises i slowly increased is stay time from seconds to minutes. he has stayed for 1/2 hour with major distractions. dogs walking by, people pulling on his leash, people calling him he stays. i put my dog in all kinds of stay situations.

to teach my dog to stay on the porch i would put him on the porch and say stay. then i would go inside the house for a few seconds. then i would come out and praise and treat. after a while i would have my dog in a down stay and my neighbors would come out and call him and tempt him with treats to get him to move. my neighbors would call my dog gently in the begining. as we trained they started calling him with gusto and running up and down the driveway. then they would bring their dog over and let the dogs get nose to nose and my dog would hold his down stay.
we slowly added distractions and we slowly increased his stay time.

now i also taught my dog boundaries. with boundaries my dog has the freedom to move around. my neighbors on both sides of my house play with my dog. he knows he can run across the lawns but he doesn't run into the street. sometimes when we're playing ball with my dog the ball will get away and roll into the street. my dog stops on top off the lawn and waits for you to get his ball from the street.

now i'm thinking in your situation you might want to teach your
to stay and then the boundaries. this way your dog can be on the porch and move around but not leave the porch even with distractions. 




> Originally Posted By: discodogOH......one more thing. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but please don't respond with comments like, "You shouldn't be letting your dog run loose like that" or "You're going to get sued if Kira bites someone". I'm not looking for advice on whether or not I should be letting Kira off-leash in my front yard. I'm looking for pointers on how to get her to "STAY" regardless of distractions. And I don't want the leash to be a "reminder" to obey. I want her to obey because she's been taught to obey and stay put until I say otherwise. Thanks!!


----------



## discodog (May 9, 2008)

doggiedad, I think you nailed it! THAT'S what I'm talking about. I don't think I'm being unrealistic with what I expect. A number of months ago I was at the grocery store down the street and there was this big GS in the back of some guy's truck. The dog was obviously older and a "work" dog. But the guy parked his truck, got out, didn't say a word, and went into the store. The dog was untied in the back of the truck. He just sat there, watching the store enterance for the return of his master. Didn't budge. I saw the dog and immediately said "Hi" to him. "How ya doin', big fella? That's a good dog!" Stuff like that. That dog glanced at me and then completely ignored me. Just looked around me at the store's entryway. 

I was sooooo impressed. THAT'S what I'm talking about. Complete and utter dignity and loyalty. I mean, that's what a GS is all about, right? At least, I think so.

I'm going to take that advice and try it out. I did give it a shot earlier today. I took Kira out to the front of the house, unleashed, and had her sit at one edge of my property. I told her "STAY" once, and walked away. Went down to the other end of my property and turned around. She was still there. Hadn't moved. My neighbors, two doors down, came home and were hopping out of their car: dad and three boys. Boys hollaring and whooping. Kira looked at them, gave a muffled bark, but I told her "nu-uh" and she stopped. Didn't move off her spot. I had her hold it until the kids were in their house and then I said "COME!" and Kira came bolting down the sidewalk at me. Gave her a piece of roast beef that I'd been holding and then praised her like crazy. So, I think it's possible. I've noticed she pays MUCH more attention when I've got a treat and am in "official training mode" than if we are just out pulling weeds in the yard, etc. Anyone else notice that?


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Just don't discard the leash advice. One thing is to not to need a leash as a goal and a completely different thing is not to use the leash as a training tool in the meantime. Remember, the less opportunities your pup has to make mistakes, the quicker will be the learning. If for one time she discovers that when she doesn't want to complain she can run away from you (and then you have no control over her) then your training will be a lot more difficult and slow. That is the reason of why many of us recommend the long leash, it doesn't mean that you will have to keep her in a line all her life, it just mean that if she breaks the exercise (and eventually she will, because she's learning) you will have the means to correct her and teach her the difference between right and wrong.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

take your time and start slow and start with one thing at a time.
be consistant and do things little by little.


----------



## discodog (May 9, 2008)

It's not that I don't want the leash on her (for training or otherwise), it's just that I don't want her to associate the leash with behaving one way and no-leash with behaving another. I've almost gotten into that trouble with the pinch collar (or whatever those things are called). I was using that to train her on the leash for walking (so she wouldn't pull) and she's gotten to a point where if I don't use it (and just use a regular collar) she thinks training is over and she can pull on the leash. And I can't seem to break her of that habit. So, I want to make sure she understands my commands without special training tools. I don't want her to associate good behavior=leash/collar, bad behavior w/o leash/collar. Does that make sense?

And, yes, consistency and doing things little by little is great advice. I'll work with her more today (we're going to Home Depot and PetsMart...so those should be good training opportunities)!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: discodogIt's not that I don't want the leash on her (for training or otherwise), it's just that I don't want her to associate the leash with behaving one way and no-leash with behaving another. I've almost gotten into that trouble with the pinch collar


But that is a problem of the training, not of the leash. Your problem with the prong is that she feels she has to obey because she is obligated to by the collar, because it is painful to pull with it, instead of using the collar to teach that after a harp correction extremely good things happens when she behaves and then she WANTING to work by your side. What you describe is how most people use the prong collar and one of the reasons I'm not that a fan of them as many here in the boards, too easy to use it wrong.

When I suggest the long leash I mean the leash hanging to the floor, you are not using it, it is not even in your hands and that is good and on that I agree with you, because it is too easy the we(the human, not the dog) are the ones who quickly become dependant on the leash. You teach everything with the dog as if loose, but when she bolts away, there is no wild freedom for her. If it happens only once you will have ruined all your previous work she will have learned a big lesson that it is good to get treats from dad when I do good, but if I'm bored, or the neighbour cat goes by the street nothing stops me for doing whatever I want. Dad doesn't run that fast.



> Quote:
> And, yes, consistency and doing things little by little is great advice. I'll work with her more today (we're going to Home Depot and PetsMart...so those should be good training opportunities)!


Here you contradict yourself. Little by little is REALLY little by little. If you don't have a consistent stay inside the house, and then at the porch you can't take her to HomeDepot and PetsMart. That is the step 20 when you are teaching the step 3.


----------



## adas (Nov 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: discodogIt's not that I don't want the leash on her (for training or otherwise), it's just that I don't want her to associate the leash with behaving one way and no-leash with behaving another. I've almost gotten into that trouble with the pinch collar (or whatever those things are called). I was using that to train her on the leash for walking (so she wouldn't pull) and she's gotten to a point where if I don't use it (and just use a regular collar) she thinks training is over and she can pull on the leash. And I can't seem to break her of that habit. So, I want to make sure she understands my commands without special training tools. I don't want her to associate good behavior=leash/collar, bad behavior w/o leash/collar. Does that make sense?
> 
> And, yes, consistency and doing things little by little is great advice. I'll work with her more today (we're going to Home Depot and PetsMart...so those should be good training opportunities)!


Aloha, with Rasa, her off leash performance is not the best, both stay and recall, but getting better. Also she is great on leash, so I am concerned like you that she may equate Leash=obey and off leash=listening is optional. I was wondering about getting a small compact glove-box type fishing rod/reel and about 40# test line and using this to have the control/safety of the leash, yet your GSD may feel he is not on leash. I think it would be good for recall then clicking/reward and also for staying. thots?

frank


----------



## fuangel29 (May 25, 2009)

You may also want to try teaching your dog to "Leave it". You would be able to stop the dog from chasing bikes, car, or whatever else. It's also helpful if you drop something on the floor that you don't want your dog to have (pills, food, children's toys, ect).

To teach "Leave it"... show a treat to your dog, place it in your hand. If you dog tries to take it, close your palm so she can't get at it. When she move her nose away from the treat (even just alittle) mark the behavior with a clicker or a "Good", "Yes", whatever word you wish to say she's doing the right thing. Give her a treat but DO NOT give her the treat that you were using to train with. Next time she moves her nose away from the treat mark it with the "good" and follow with the words "Leave it". 

Once she gets that try placing the treat on the floor in front of her, tell her to "leave it" if she tries to eat it pick it up. When you can place the treat on the floor without her trying to get at it give her tons of praise and a fresh treat. 

When she is doing that consistantly start making it harder for her. Throw her treat or favorite toy, when she goes after it tell her "Leave it" in a loud sturn voice. If she leaves it alone give her a special treat (warm hot dog is my dog's favorite) and tons of praise. 

Remember, don't ever give her the treat that you are telling her to leave during the train session until she has learned what you are trying to teach her. You can give it later, just not during training. After she learns "Leave it" you can teach her "Get it" Or whatever you want to call it LOL. Try to keep her train sessions under 10 minutes, 5 minutes is usually good. Be patient, everything happens in good time.


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Sorry if you are offended, but the subsequent posters provided a great deal of good advice. As I said in a prior post your dog sounds a bit like Timber, my German Shepherd. Actually, more then a bit. When Timber was a young dog, he did precisely the same thing you describe. Then one day he knocked down a jogger. Fortunately she was not hurt. A few more incidents happened and now we are working to get him to calm down. Timber has apparently decided that his number one job is to guard my property, but when someone on a bike or jogging comes by his instinct was to chase.

You posted the following:

"However, if a out-of-neighborhood kid comes biking, skating, running down the street and gets too close to our property, Kira will bolt off after the poor child, barking, and scare the snot out of the kid! She means no harm but she definately is letting the stranger know she's here and they'd better be careful!"

Kira's actions are scary, and althought you were pretty clear you would not accept open-minded opinions, unless things change something bad will happen. I am will to admit I made some mistakes with my guy. I see a similar thing happening in your case.

As for training, there are tons of excellent replies on your post.


----------



## IslandStorm62 (Dec 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: discodog I had her hold it until the kids were in their house and then I said "COME!" and Kira came bolting down the sidewalk at me.


I know this is an older post and maybe you made it past this point. In another thread they talked about not releasing the dog by a command such as "COME"; instead others have suggested that when you place the dog in "STAY" they should only be released by the handler going to the dog, physically touching the dog in some fashion and giving a release command. I am not entirely sure what the reasoning is behind this, buit when I was reading the original thread it made a lot of sense; I have been trying to find that thread again, but I can't.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Only releasing your dog from a STAY by returning to the dog makes for a much more solid stay. This is where WAIT comes into play, where you may release your dog from wherever you are. I think it's important to only release your dog from STAY by returning to the dog to release it. Over time, this should make for a very solid STAY, where you know that, for safety's sake, nothing is going to cause that dog to move, until you return to him/her.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Mocha I am not entirely sure what the reasoning is behind this, buit when I was reading the original thread it made a lot of sense; I have been trying to find that thread again, but I can't.


Here is the beginning of that discussion: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...t=1#Post1324613


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: In another thread they talked about not releasing the dog by a command such as "COME"; instead others have suggested that when you place the dog in "STAY" they should only be released by the handler going to the dog, physically touching the dog in some fashion and giving a release command.


I don't understand this at all... 

The dog should learn "stay" means "stay" until told otherwise or given another command and that command or told otherwise could come from the handler being next to the dog, 20' away from the dog or behind the dog, etc..

Maybe in the beginning phases of teaching the dog.. The handler comes back to the dog and steps into basic position to release by using their voice..


----------



## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I know this is not the SchH forum but one thing I do use to prevent any anticipation from forming when the dog is in a down-stay or sit-stay, etc, for example is to indeed often return to my dog rather than recalling/issuing another command. I also change my pace and run around, go to the dog and then leave the dog again. So I mix it up once in awhile but more often than not, I return to the dog and perform a long pause before releasing. I guess it equates to working towards preventing anticipation which can thereby help to maintain a more solid position and/or prevent "creeping froward" from happening, which is often the case when recalls are done frequently when the dog is in the stationary position. I'm assuming that is the rationale for such. I don't use a touch command because of the sport I do - I want the dog to rely on my voice rather than my body help for any command I issue because any handler help such as use of body help results in point deductions, which is a moot point I guess unless it is required fo the type of training one does. 

I do agree that stay means stay no matter what though - but I suppose the whole "prevention of anticipation" is why.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I understand what your saying Nicole..

When I'm teaching my dog(s) to stay in the beginning phases I will come in and reward often.. once they understand, then I start testing (proofing) them more and the reward will come after the release for doing the correct behavior.. I too want my dogs focusing on what I'm saying..

And I will say it depends on what exercise I'm working on whether I'm coming back to my dog to release or not.. The dog may have to do another command from a sit-stay, down-stay or a stand-stay..


----------



## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Absolutely it depends on the exercise - I'm with you on that one as well!


----------



## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> 
> 
> > Quote: In another thread they talked about not releasing the dog by a command such as "COME"; instead others have suggested that when you place the dog in "STAY" they should only be released by the handler going to the dog, physically touching the dog in some fashion and giving a release command.
> ...


The physical touching combined with a release came from 3K9Mom who is training a service dog and she gave an example. A touch release won't work for those who train for competition since for the most trials/competition you are not allow to touch your dogs for the most part.

I do the same as Buoyant Dog and use Stay when I intend on returning to the dog. I use Wait also, and it says that I may use another command without returning to the dog. Come is not really a release word but another command. I use Break for my release word.

I think some of the confusion comes from each individual's goals in their training. Where's some train with different types of trialing/competition in mind, others base their training on having a well trained companion (or a service dog) by their side. While there is definite crossover between the the various goals, there can be differences in the approach and meaning of the various commands based on an individual's ultimate goals.


----------



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

During training phases, I always return to my dog and release from stay. But once a solid stay is established, I expect my dog to hold the stay until I return OR another command is issued. I've always just used "stay" for my stays regardless of whether they're the sit or down-stay or the short stay for recalls in competition.

I've had many students who have chosen to use "wait" for a stay that they plan to call the dog out of, and "stay" for a stay where they will return to the dog. However, my thought is that if your worry is that the dog will break a stay if you sometimes call them from it, why wouldn't that same worry be there if you used "wait" instead? The concept is the same. A properly trained dog doesn't NEED two stay commands, but I think that the humans may need them .. *L* ... personally, the more commands I have to remember, the harder it is to be consistent. And I will admit, in my early competition days, there were times I forgot a command while in the ring .. *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I've had many students who have chosen to use "wait" for a stay that they plan to call the dog out of, and "stay" for a stay where they will return to the dog. However, my thought is that if your worry is that the dog will break a stay if you sometimes call them from it, why wouldn't that same worry be there if you used "wait" instead? The concept is the same. *A properly trained dog doesn't NEED two stay commands, but I think that the humans may need them ..* *L* ... personally, the more commands I have to remember, the harder it is to be consistent. And I will admit, in my early competition days, there were times I forgot a command while in the ring .. *L*



Exactly Melanie!

I think we humans make dog training too complicated and confuse the heck out of our dogs.. 

I use the "wait" command for doors, the crate, getting in and out of the car, stairs and at curbs.. The dog can't cross the threshold (doesn't have to stay still) until he/she is told otherwise.. 

Our classes are geared towards having a well behaved pet too, but we also have students who do go on to compete.. regardless of ones goals the exercises are still taught the same, with the same expectation out of the dogs..


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgI use the "wait" command for doors, the crate, getting in and out of the car, stairs and at curbs.. The dog can't cross the threshold (doesn't have to stay still) until he/she is told otherwise...


That's exactly how I use it too - the dog doesn't even need to stay right there (as in the case of at the door), they just can't move forward across that invisible line.


----------



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

That's my "wait" command too - stay in that general area, like inside the door area while the door is open, or inside the car - until I come back or tell them to come out. I'll also use it when I go to step over a dog - I say "wait there" which means "let me step over you, don't get up, but you're not in a formal stay". 

I like the generic "wait" because I don't have to follow-up with it. I don't have to release or command although I CAN if I want, but if I don't it doesn't affect their "stay" command later on.

The biggest thing with all the commands (as we all know) is to use them consistently. Consistent use of commands produces consistent response, and if a dog isn't responding consistently then the first thing that should be done is to analyze the human side of the equation (is the training understandable to the dog, is the human consistent in using the command, is the behavior rewarded properly, is the dog released properly, etc). Usually the problem will show up in what we're doing, not in the dog's actions.

G-Burg - I think most of us who have been competitive and then teach pet classes are always thinking ahead to those potential students who will choose to go on and compete. My pet classes teach NOTHING that will create a problem if someone chooses to compete later on. I encourage people not to teach their dogs to rock-back into a sit, to creep forward on the down or stay, etc. Not only do I find that the dogs respond better, the people find that the behaviors set them up for competition training later on.

I do teach just walking on a loose leash in pet classes instead of actual heeling, but that doesn't mess up anything either. We all need dogs who walk calmly on a loose leash, and heeling will be taught with different body cues and verbal commands. Dogs are capable of learning as much as we can figure out to teach them.

Melanie and the gang


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

We teach loose leash walking too...


----------



## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: discodogA number of months ago I was at the grocery store down the street and there was this big GS in the back of some guy's truck. The dog was obviously older and a "work" dog. But the guy parked his truck, got out, didn't say a word, and went into the store. The dog was untied in the back of the truck. He just sat there, watching the store enterance for the return of his master. Didn't budge. I saw the dog and immediately said "Hi" to him. "How ya doin', big fella? That's a good dog!" Stuff like that. That dog glanced at me and then completely ignored me. Just looked around me at the store's entryway.


That dog probably started off by being tied in the back of the truck, until the owners felt the dog knew what he was supposed to do.


----------

