# 2 ball game/ out command



## Whitefang3 (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm having trouble with eos and getting her to out when we are playing with 2 balls. She will chew/toss around the one in her mouth for a bit before she decides to drop it.

Whenever we are playing with her tug however, as soon as I make the tug go dead and rest it against my legs and give the out command she obeys 8/10 times

Can anyone give me some advice in regards to this?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Here's why I don't like two ball.

It's basically adding an extra step to a process and not really teaching the dog what it should be doing. 

It's like if my dog is biting a decoy and I out him and essentially redirect him immediately to bite another decoy. If that sounds silly to you then why do it with two balls?


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## Whitefang3 (Jun 12, 2013)

When you put it like that it makes sense, so just use one ball?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right. Fun stops till the dog does what it's supposed to. 

How old is this dog?


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## Whitefang3 (Jun 12, 2013)

About a yr and a half


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ivan Balabanov sells a DVD called The Game. You should buy it. You won't have issues like that again after.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I love two hose/ball. Allows me to keep my dog engaged and get good exersise as well. 

If you are having problems with the dog retrieving then only using one ball is going to make it worse. Especially if he gets corrected until he comes back into you. 

With two hose/ball, start with the dog on a long line, throw the ball, once he has it, run backwards a bit, calling his name and activating the other toy. Since he is on a long line you can reel him in. If he gets chewy on the first toy, hold his collar and with the other hand activate the second toy. Make it waaaaay more fun that the first, the second he drops the first one, throw the second. 

If your dog is not outing the first toy, you are not making the second fun enough. They need to learn that the dead toy stinks. It's the live toy they want. 

I guess though it all depends on what you are using the game for. If it's training as a reward, then I would not be using two toy. If it's to excersise and free up your dog after a good session, then two toy is great. 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's essentially bribing your dog off the first toy and that's just no good. It's not training.


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## Whitefang3 (Jun 12, 2013)

I was doing it more for fun but it does get bothersome when she doesn't drop the first ball. Retrieving the ball is not the problem it's getting her to drop it so I can throw the 2nd one.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Baillif said:


> It's essentially bribing your dog off the first toy and that's just no good. It's not training.



I wholly disagree. You say to make the fun stop until the dog does what you want. But the dog is having fun chewing on the ball, while you do what? Correct a puppy? Tell it "no" over and over? Stand still until the dog gets bored of it own game so you can pick up the toy and then reengage the dog? 

Two hose done correctly, keeps the dog engaged, teaches the out, allows for quicker exchanges of toy and more fluid training? Some people don't like throwing the toy. Fine, modify the two toy game into a toy exchange. It's how we rewards FEMA dogs. Trust me, they are trained not bribed. 


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I think the ultimate goal is for the dog to bring only one ball back to you as fast as possible and then out immediately when asked because the dog realizes YOU are the thing that makes that ball come alive. 

Try a ball on a string. When dog brings it back tug for a bit and then ask for out. Then immediately throw. 

I don't like two ball because I don't want my dog to think I'm an automatic ball launcher.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The reason I haven't told you flat out how it's done is it is not my technique and therefore not something I would just give out free. Buy the game and you'll see how it is done. It is a quick and simple fix that would have you slapping your head wondering why you didn't think of it first. 

You don't see me playing two frisbee with my dog do you? Know why? Because he's trained to out not bribed to redirect.


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## Whitefang3 (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm using a ball on a string I have noticed that she tugs harder with the ball than when I use her actual tug so I may give that a try. 

Shall I tug on the one In her mouth then out and when she does it successfully throw the 2nd ball?

I try to make the 2nd toy as fun as I can swinging it and what not but she enjoys chewing on the one In her mouth a little more. If I throw the 2nd one while she has one in her mouth she will chase after it but retains the first ball still


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Whitefang3 said:


> I'm using a ball on a string I have noticed that she tugs harder with the ball than when I use her actual tug so I may give that a try.
> 
> Shall I tug on the one In her mouth then out and when she does it successfully throw the 2nd ball?
> 
> I try to make the 2nd toy as fun as I can swinging it and what not but she enjoys chewing on the one In her mouth a little more. If I throw the 2nd one while she has one in her mouth she will chase after it but retains the first ball still



Swinging is not exciting. Short, quick movements with a pause. Like a prey animal. The second she drops the first throw the second. Don't throw the second if she does not drop the first. 

I don't only do two toy. My current dog in training uses only one tug. Different things for different dogs. I don't consider it bribing. To each his own. 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Hey kid get that candy bar out of your mouth and go after this delicious ice cream cookie instead look how much more fun and tasty it is! Also FEMA approves so it must be good!

I'm giving you a hard time but how is that not bribery?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I never used two balls. I just used one ball on string. I would tug a bit then made the toy go dead and ask for an out. Then immediately reward by allowing the dog to bite the ball and tug some more or throw it. To begin teaching I would just ask for out and then immediately re-engage instead of throwing it. . The timing has to be good and the point is to teach the dog that outs are rewarding.


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## Whitefang3 (Jun 12, 2013)

simba405 said:


> I never used two balls. I just used one ball on string. I would tug a bit then made the toy go dead and ask for an out. Then immediately reward by allowing the dog to bite the ball and tug some more or throw it. To begin teaching I would just ask for out and then immediately re-engage instead of throwing it. . The timing has to be good and the point is to teach the dog that outs are rewarding.


That's what I do with her actual tug, but with a ball she will chew on it rather than drop it


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Then continue to hold on to the end of the string and wait for her to out. The immediately make the toy come alive again. Dog isn't stupid. It will learn real quick that outting when asked makes the toy comes alive and not outting makes the toy go dead. 

Either way if the dog isn't retrieving the ball and shoving it into your stomach then the ball is clearly more fun than you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Haha boomer is that you?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Haha boomer is that you?


Hahaha maybe? Did the part about not being as fun as the ball give it away?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The whole post was pretty much classic boomer


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Lol

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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whitefang3 said:


> I'm having trouble with eos and getting her to out when we are playing with 2 balls. She will chew/toss around the one in her mouth for a bit before she decides to drop it.
> 
> Whenever we are playing with her tug however, as soon as I make the tug go dead and rest it against my legs and give the out command she obeys 8/10 times
> 
> Can anyone give me some advice in regards to this?


Do you have any plans as far as any type of formal obedience? Recalls? Retrieves ? I don't use two ball to teach an out, but I like it a lot for teaching my dogs to run to me. 

I'm just careful to keep it separate of other obedience exercises. I think its pretty easy to keep from blurring how you are already working an out with the tug.

I just keep a side profile to my dog, I keep moving, and I don't bother giving an out command in the beginning. Its like anything else, you can add other things if you want, fade the second toy out of site, anything you want. Once her out is solid with the tug, out will mean out. You can out her as she's running back or when she's right with you.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> The reason I haven't told you flat out how it's done is it is not my technique and therefore not something I would just give out free. Buy the game and you'll see how it is done. It is a quick and simple fix that would have you slapping your head wondering why you didn't think of it first.
> 
> You don't see me playing two frisbee with my dog do you? Know why? Because he's trained to out not bribed to redirect.


 
If you're referring to Ivan's "The Game" it doesn't always work on shepherds (or other breeds).. Especially ones that are more possessive of an object.. 

Nothing wrong with two ball/two hose or two anything if it creates the desired behavior in the dog.. Who cares if it's bribing! 

I'm finding I'm having to do this with my young pup.. Not so much for the out but to get him engaged with me, although it is working for the out.. Kind of killing two birds with one stone! My pup is very happy to take his toys (or whatever he has) and go elsewhere and play/posses/entertain himself! After a couple of sessions I see a totally different dog..


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Zebu is extremely possessive. If you pay attention in that frisbee video when I charge him to take the frisbee he roars at me. Where do you think that comes from? I reward with possession sometimes. If I don't cue him to return them he will run victory lap circles around me forever. Vidin ot vitosha here is the same way when he's cued to return it he does it but he's pissed and always comes in roaring. It still works. It's like anything though. You teach it but once they know they have to do it. Otherwise punishment city.

They both out clean even when fighting to possess an object under tension. 

Teaching a dog a clean out is a five minute thing. Not a five session thing.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Well, haven't watched your Frisbee video. 

Just saying that "The Game" that you were referring too doesn't always work with shepherds!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Not to sound like a jerk or anything but what makes you so sure when you see it that the game is the problem?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Well, if you're nagging, nagging, nagging, nagging and the dogs not outing.. And it's creating other behaviors or the dog is clamping done harder then what else is one to think? And just to clarify I've been to a couple of Ivan seminars.. and seen it not work there..


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ivan has a very very clear way to fix that let me assure you. Might not have shown it during a seminar though and you can probably guess why.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Oh no I can assure he did.. Nothing no other top level trainer/competitor doesn't already do if needed.. But since you mentioned "the Game" that's what I was referring too.. And I will say it again... It doesn't always work..

I can also assure you that hard corrections/force on some dogs can fail in training too!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

And that's when stuff gets creative...


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I don't think you can just correct every dog to out. Some will just want to quit playing if corrected too harshly. I'm sure others you can abuse and they still won't out (especially if the dog doesn't really know you)


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Don't correct too harshly


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> And that's when stuff gets creative...


 And not to sound like a jerk.. That's were two ball can be a handy tool! 


I actually love Ivan stuff.. but like any training/method/theory, it's not for every dog..


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Just for clarification creative... wasn't meant to sound so menacing...or was it?


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