# What makes a Blue?



## Daisy1986

I have seen a couple of threads about blue GSD's. 

They do not look blue to me? 

I do not think they are standard. 

What is a blue GSD. What makes them called blue?? 
I know it is not their eyes, right?


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## Castlemaid

Others will have a more scientifically correct answer, but I'll give a stab at it:

A Blue GSD has inherited a pigment dilution gene. Instead of the black pigment being expressed as well, er . . . black, it gets diluted and is expressed as a dark grey. So not technically blue, but dark greys do look blue in certain light.

The dog may be genetically a black or black and tan, but has in addition the dilution gene which causes the blacks to be blue. This means that anywhere there is supposed to be a black colour, like the nose leather and the lips, for example, it will be blue. 

The blue dilution gene is recessive, which means that both parents must carry the gene in order for the two recessive genes to match up and cause the dillution factor to be expressed. If a dog inherits only one blue dillution gene from only one parent, it will not be expressed as it is recessive, and a dominant colour will be expressed instead, but this dog will be carrier of the recessive gene and may in turn pass it on to an offspring. 

So there can be a lot of matings down a number of generations, with dogs carrying the blue dillution gene, but never being expressed until one dog is mated with another dog with the same blue gene, and the two genes are inherited by a dog in the litter, and surprise! A blue pup! Nothing wrong with that, but then intentionally breeding the blue pup to get more blue pups is considered breeding against the standard, which ethical breeders will not do. 

If mating two blue dogs, then all the pups will be blue (am I right on this?). 

Hopefully, others will chime in and confirm or correct my explanation.


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## lish91883

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> If mating two blue dogs, then all the pups will be blue (am I right on this?).



I think that you could get standard colors also. I do know that both parents have to have the "blue" gene in order to produce a blue puppy.


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## lish91883

Heres a website that might help you understand more. 

http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html


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## wolfstraum

Another perspective.....aside from genetics cited above...

the dark gray, slate color is often called "blue" in the animal kingdom. We have 

Blue roan horses 
Russian Blue cats
Blue Great Danes (and Dobes and Weims and Kerry Blue Terriers!)

All of these are really more a shade of gray than sky blue! But look at any pantone color chart - or paint chip strip at the store...the blue tones can seque into gray to black as well.

Lee


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: lish91883
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> If mating two blue dogs, then all the pups will be blue (am I right on this?).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that you could get standard colors also. I do know that both parents have to have the "blue" gene in order to produce a blue puppy.
Click to expand...

No you can't get standard colors.

For a recessive (blue, liver, white, solid black) to appear in a dog, the dog must have 2 genes for that recessive. One from each parent.

If the dog shows the recessive, it therefore has 2 copies of that gene, and will give one copy to each pup. If the other parent shows the recessive, and therefore has 2 copies of that gene, it will also give one copy to each pup. Each pup will then be inheriting one copy from each parent, giving it the 2 it needs to express the recessive, and it will also show that recessive.

Two blacks bred together cannot produce any color but black. Two whites bred together cannot produce any color but white. Same holds true for blue and liver.


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## SunCzarina

So it's technically impossible to get blue dogs out of pure whites? (sort of a facetious question from that _other_ thread)

What about whites that have a yellow or grey-ish saddle and faint markings on thier heads? I always thought those dogs weren't _pure white_ but had some other classification?

Just curious - and these are the questions that make me totally unqualified to breed german shepherds!


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaSo it's technically impossible to get blue dogs out of pure whites? (sort of a facetious question from that _other_ thread)


Yes, it is genetically impossible.



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaWhat about whites that have a yellow or grey-ish saddle and faint markings on thier heads? I always thought those dogs weren't _pure white_ but had some other classification?


That sort of bleed through isn't uncommon, especially in first generation whites, or whites produced by colored parents. White to white breeding, especially after several generations, tends to produce a more pure white dog.


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## Daisy1986

OK, I understand more now. 

The link helped. I see it on the nose now. 

I learned that there are liver GSD's did not know that either. I love learning stuff on here. (I am boring my DH with the knowledge,







, he is on a motorcycle forum.) My 6 yr old DS, said I like dogs to much! I just said, do you like toys to much? He smiled and said, yes! and candy!


Jenn is was that other link- that was confusing me, it looked like a husky. 

Thanks for clearing it up!!


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## SunCzarina

That other thread was, IMHO, meant to confuse people like us who don't breed, have no intention of breeding but love the breed and want to understand how these genetic anomalies happen. Just someone who likes to talk but should do more listening







the OP said she was tking a break from the BB for a while and I'm thinking 'what, leaving so soon?'


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## Daisy1986

Exactly.









I found it disturbing, that I was intent on straightening this person out, or trying to figure them out. They were probably a troll, they stood out on this forum like a sore thumb! Which is a huge compliment to this community!! 

Every time a read a post, Anthony Hopkins voice was in my head, from Silence of the lambs, even though I think they were female.
It was creeping me out...


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: WolfstraumAnother perspective.....aside from genetics cited above...
> 
> the dark gray, slate color is often called "blue" in the animal kingdom. We have
> 
> Blue roan horses
> Russian Blue cats
> Blue Great Danes (and Dobes and Weims and Kerry Blue Terriers!)
> 
> All of these are really more a shade of gray than sky blue! But look at any pantone color chart - or paint chip strip at the store...the blue tones can seque into gray to black as well.
> 
> Lee


Blue roan horses aren't "blue". Each hair isn't a "blue" or "grey" color, They have roughly the same number or black and white hairs that makes them LOOK "blue. It only takes 1 roan parent to get a roan foal. And breeding two roans together does NOT guarantee a roan offspring. The roan gene is horses is a dominant gene. You MUST have at least 1 roan parent to get a roan foal. If the horse has the roan gene it will "show" in their actual color, UNLESS they also carry a grey gene, in which case, they will appear grey since grey is dominant over everything.


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaThat other thread was, IMHO, meant to confuse people like us who don't breed, have no intention of breeding but love the breed and want to understand how these genetic anomalies happen.


Oh, no, in Betty's words "Her posts are so educational". 

Her breeding practices are so weird that you can but learning something from her "experience".


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## SunCzarina

I'd get sanctioned for what I'm really thinking about those breeding practices.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI'd get sanctioned for what I'm really thinking about those breeding practices.


You're not the only one!


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## onyx'girl

> Quote:
> For a recessive (blue, liver, white, solid black) to appear in a dog, the dog must have 2 genes for that recessive. One from each parent.
> Two blacks bred together cannot produce any color but black. Two whites bred together cannot produce any color but white. Same holds true for blue and liver.


 In the thread about silver/grey pup I posted a blue that indeed did come from two blacks, they were brother and sister who mistakenly hooked up, luckily only three pups were born.


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## onyx'girl

> Quote:
> For a recessive (blue, liver, white, solid black) to appear in a dog, the dog must have 2 genes for that recessive. One from each parent.
> Two blacks bred together cannot produce any color but black. Two whites bred together cannot produce any color but white. Same holds true for blue and liver.


 In the thread about silver/grey pup I posted a blue that indeed did come from two blacks, they were brother and sister who mistakenly hooked up, luckily she only had three pups.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=792814#Post792814


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## Daisy1986

Wow I have been on here long enough that I remember that picture. 

Shows how much I retain info. I forgot about that, until all this other stuff came up. 

I was taking in a lot of stuff at once on this site. 

I have also learned what they mean by saying dilute, I have read that about cats too. Did not know what they meant. Seems logical now, dah. Diluted.


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD You MUST have at least 1 roan parent to get a roan foal. If the horse has the roan gene it will "show" in their actual color, UNLESS they also carry a grey gene, in which case, they will appear grey since grey is dominant over everything.


Must not be true in Appaloosas.







Leopard Mare x Leopard Stallion = Chestnut Roan Filly.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> For a recessive (blue, liver, white, solid black) to appear in a dog, the dog must have 2 genes for that recessive. One from each parent.
> Two blacks bred together cannot produce any color but black. Two whites bred together cannot produce any color but white. Same holds true for blue and liver.
> 
> 
> 
> In the thread about silver/grey pup I posted a blue that indeed did come from two blacks, they were brother and sister who mistakenly hooked up, luckily only three pups were born.
Click to expand...

I should have been more clear. Yes, blacks could produce whites or blues or livers because those genes are separate from the gene for color, located on a different locus.

Genetically, those blue pups from the black parents ARE black. Their color genes are for black, and nothing else. But they have a separate modifier gene that dilutes their pigment from black to blue. So I should have said, 2 blacks can only produce blacks (in other words, no sables, no black/tans, no bicolors) UNLESS other color modifying genes, such as dilutions or masking exist on other alleles.

Those blacks are still producing all black puppies, and only black puppies from a genetics standpoint, but they may not appear black because a dilution gene has diluted their black pigment to liver or blue, or a masking gene has covered up their true color with white. But genetically, their A locus color allele is still for solid black and cannot be for anything else. That's the way recessives work. When both parents carry the same two recessive genes, those are the only genes that can exist on that locus that the pups can inherit.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD You MUST have at least 1 roan parent to get a roan foal. If the horse has the roan gene it will "show" in their actual color, UNLESS they also carry a grey gene, in which case, they will appear grey since grey is dominant over everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Must not be true in Appaloosas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard Mare x Leopard Stallion = Chestnut Roan Filly.
Click to expand...

Nope, Appies have their own weird "gene" rules! And a "roan" in the Appy world is not the same as in the QH world. A lot of Appies that are called "roan" get lighter with age. I TRUE roan QH does NOT.


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD You MUST have at least 1 roan parent to get a roan foal. If the horse has the roan gene it will "show" in their actual color, UNLESS they also carry a grey gene, in which case, they will appear grey since grey is dominant over everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Must not be true in Appaloosas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard Mare x Leopard Stallion = Chestnut Roan Filly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, Appies have their own weird "gene" rules! And a "roan" in the Appy world is not the same as in the QH world. A lot of Appies that are called "roan" get lighter with age. I TRUE roan QH does NOT.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I tried to learn some of those weird gene rules in my youth but alas, though only thing I figured out was that it was beyond me







My mare had: the roan, a bay out of a blanketed stallion and a "snowflake" out of a leopard. 

I'm glad GSDs are so much more straight forward!!


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## Catu

Another good link about colours and pigment.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html


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## wolfstraum

LOL My point about the "blue" as in roans, cats etc - was it was not a BLUE color like a crayon blue! But a gray (yes, in horses, mix of black and white (and red) hairs!

LOL Hey Barb, I bred a black mare with small white hip blanket to a chestnut TB stallion, got a bay filly with 4 quarter sized spots on hips...turned roan - with some spots...bred her to a black bay Selle Francais with 3 white socks and blaze - got ANOTHER black bay with 4 or 5 quarter sized spots...turned roan --- 4 generations of roans born nearly solid - GRRRRRRRRRR Gave up and bred the 1/2 TB mare to Spectacular Bid and got my true roan, no genetic markers for App genes - and she was ended up being a real dink (personality wise!) - most evil mare I ever had.

Lee


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## rokanhaus

I just recently saw a photo of a brindle horse! never knew they existed....boy are they cool looking!!!


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## Barb E

I first heard about Brindle horses a couple of years ago, they are very cool!!








http://www.lovasok.hu/index.php?i=6944


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## Castlemaid

The picture and article is from a Hungarian Website! How cool is that!


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## wolfstraum

That has to be the coolest color I have ever seen - even though I am a big fan of big spotted leopards and flashy overos - that is right there with them!

Lee


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## DianaM

Wow, a brindle horse... that is so awesome. I never knew horses could be brindle.


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## Nikkoli110

OK I'm going to throw a question in here. I don't have a great understanding of genetics, but was wondering...do blues and/or all whites have any other "side effects" (Not the right word) from being those colors? I know white Dobes can have genetic issues with photo sensitivity, and I know that other dogs (Austrailian Shepherds? maybe?) Have issues with some of the merles? Like sight and hearing issues? Is there anything known with this and blue and/or white shepherds? Just wondering, sorry if this doesn't make much sense!


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## DancingCavy

As far as I know, there are no color-associated genetic anomolies with white, liver, or blue GSDs.


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## Manfred

We had a Liver for 13 years , never had any health issues , 

The only problem he ever had was he had those pink pads on his feet and was really sensitive to snow , and living in Minnesota made it kinda tough on him........lol


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## Lauri & The Gang

The main different between the White Dobes and the 'off' colored GSDs is that the white dobes ALL go back to a single female Dobe, and a poorly bred one at that.

That type of genentic constraint is NOT good!


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