# Question About Trainer and Methods and Corrections



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, we went to our first puppy pre-school session. It went well. It was a lot of telling us to make sure Godric gives eye contact, and doing a distraction thing where either my husband or I holds a treat in our hand while the other one of us calls him, and when he looks at the person calling him, he gets a treat, and although we have taught him sit and lay down, he doesn't lay straight down like you need in schutzhund, so she taught us the proper way to get him to lay down.

My mother-in-law brought her GSD who is a year and a half old for novice obedience. He's never had formal training before. 

Now, I have never done any sort of real training, so I'm not sure what's the norm, but I didn't feel comfortable with the way that she dealt with him. It was his first class, and his only interaction with dogs before has only been to play. He goes to the dog park, or we bring our dogs to his house. So he saw other dogs training nearby, and wanted to play, and barked a little and whined on the leash while we were standing there talking. 

He was definitely not in a dangerous mindset or any such thing. He wasn't lunging or being out of control. He was sitting on the leash, whining. The trainer said, "If you don't give him a real correction, he's going to do that all day, with you trying to give him small corrections and him still doing it."

Well, she said she'd correct him, and took his leash and purposely walked him towards the other dogs to get a reaction, then made a sharp sudden turn and jerked the **** out of his choke, pulling him off his front feet, to correct him. She did this a few times. They were using the same tactic on a dog there that's dog aggressive.

Is this normal or good? I would think that before you do a harsh correction, you should teach the dog to heel first, right? Shouldn't you show him what you DO want, and then when he knows what you want and still doesn't do it, then correct him? Aren't you sorta punishing him for something he didn't even know was wrong? Am I wrong? My husband and MIL seem to think that's the way it's done. Am I just being a wuss? 

I've seen a lot of things said about setting your dog up for success, and teaching him what you want him to do and preventing bad behavior rather than waiting for bad behavior and correcting it. I'm not sure how this is done, so I figured a trainer would teach us.... Umm, doesn't look like that's gonna happen here. Help?

Now I'm worried about this trainer and her methods... after we already paid for six sessions. 

I'd like opinions on this trainer and ideas about ways that she could have gone about that instead. My MIL tends to latch onto anything new she learns, and preaches it to everyone, and will do it all the time, so I'd much rather she learn something positive.

The trainer did tell my husband and I that with our pup, if we're going to try schutzhund, then we go much slower, and she doesn't even expect him to have the obedience down until he's almost two, which seems a little crazy to me, when you're working with a puppy everyday and they learn so fast! But everything is so precise with schutzhund, so I don't know...? I knew to keep an eye out for anyone trying to push him too hard or too fast. Should I be keeping an eye out for someone not expecting enough of him as well? Haha. What would you say is the average or the norm?

Our pup had only been on a leash once, for a few minutes the day before we went to the class. If you walk with a treat in your hand, he walks with us, no problem. Most of the time, even without a treat, he'd walk right with us. He was generally pretty good, but every now and then, he'd be stubborn against the leash and tug backwards and stuff, like all puppies do at first. She said we should put him on a leash and tie it to something and let him fight against it until he's tired, and then we can go out and "rescue" him, and then he'll be happy to walk with us. 

Why would I let him fight against the leash? He's barely fighting it now, and when he starts to, I distract him, or call him or something and he stops. If I let him start to really fight it, won't he do it that much more next time? Wouldn't that teach him _not_ to like the leash? Why would I do that when he's already being good on it with just some treats or praise? He's walking with us because he's focused on us, not on the leash. I could see doing that if maybe you had an older dog who fights like crazy about walking on a leash, and you're trying to prove that fighting is futile, and that he won't escape, but for training a pup who has never been on one before? 

I know that's not very many examples to say whether or not she's a "good" trainer, but I was only there for about an hour. I know you guys have more experience with training/trainers and training methods than I do (I have zero experience), but I want our dogs to have POSITIVE experiences.

I'm not that worried since it's only another 5 sessions, and Godric is so little, and I doubt that she's going to "correct" him, and I don't think I'd let her... if I was sure of myself. Since I'm not positive what's right and what's normal, I don't know, but I can tell you that I wasn't comfortable with it. Then again, he's a puppy, and I only have one chance to do this right, and don't want him messed up. 

INPUT, PLEASE! :help:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would not let anyone jerk my dog, puppy or not


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## heatherr (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm also very new to this - my puppy (4.5 months old-ish) has been to 2 "beginner" classes at the local Petsmart (not the best I know, but the trainer seemed nice!). And they have been nothing like that.

My dog, and another dog that is there both just want to play ALL THE TIME. So, whenever they start whining, we're told to turn the whining dog around so his back to towards the dog, have him focus on us, and then do a command-click-treat. This usually distracts them from the dog and then we can continue our training. The trainer also showed up ways to relax our dogs (spine massages, ears, etc). When the two first got there, we let them play a bit, and then separated them and practiced the relaxation techniques first with the dogs backs to each other, then turned around so the pups were facing each other. We both had calm, happy, pups who 5 minutes before were SO EXCITED. 

I would NOT be happy if a trainer was jerking my dog around at all.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

How old is Godric? Based only on what you've said here, this trainer is a little too harsh. Your MIL's dog should have been corrected for barking in appropriately but the way she did it was WAY over the top. A better way would be to teach the dog a quiet command and reward him for that! A small leash correction may have been needed but not walking back and forth and yanking him.

Also, the advice about the leash is terrible. You want Godric to view the leash as something really good (and he should be trained to be on leash). For a young dog training should be FUN FUN FUN! Minimal light corrections should be used only after the dog has shown that he really does know a command in several situations. A light correction would be a voice (eh-eh or oops) or a slight tug on the leash.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> then made a sharp sudden turn and jerked the **** out of his choke, pulling him off his front feet, to correct him.


That is a way over correction and a great way to permanently damage his trachea. It should be enough to get his attention but no way should his front feet ever leave the ground! 

I would look for a new trainer. And as young as Godric is, he should not be getting leash correction in my opinion.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackviolet said:


> *I know that's not very many examples to say whether or not she's a "good" trainer*, but I was only there for about an hour. I know you guys have more experience with training/trainers and training methods than I do (I have zero experience), but I want our dogs to have POSITIVE experiences.


It's enough for me. This is a 10/11 week old puppy, yes? Do NOT go back to this trainer!!!! Right now, all training should be motivational and fun. 

And even for your MIL's dog who has had no previous training I would not put a choke collar on and then yank the crap out of him.  This is basically teaching him what to do by showing him what not to do. That make any sense to you? Wouldn't it be so much better to teach him what to do by showing him what you want and then rewarding him for it? Save the harsh corrections for willful disobedience of fully learned commands that have been generalized to a variety of situations. She's extremely old school, the kind of training that was typically done decades ago.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you are going to persue SchH with Godric why not start with a club now? You'll get guidence on the proper foundation for the age of the pup and the people in the club may set you in the right direction of an obedience class geared towards SchH dogs(If you still want to do a puppy type socializing class) I agree with above, new trainer asap!


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> And even for your MIL's dog who has had no previous training I would not put a choke collar on and then yank the crap out of him.  This is basically teaching him what to do by showing him what not to do. That make any sense to you? Wouldn't it be so much better to teach him what to do by showing him what you want and then rewarding him for it? Save the harsh corrections for willful disobedience of fully learned commands that have been generalized to a variety of situations. She's extremely old school, the kind of training that was typically done decades ago.


 
That's what I thought! And although I get the idea of that, I'm not sure how to implement it. When we came back from the trainer, I told my husband and my MIL that I didn't like what she had done, and tried to explain that you're supposed to "set him up to succeed, and prevent unwanted behavior, not just correct him when he's wrong," and "teach him what you WANT him to do, not just what you don't want," but then I couldn't back it up because they asked how it should be done, and I don't know! I've never done training.  I get the idea, but I don't know the methods, so they acted like I was dumb and just didn't get it, and said, "Well, that's the way it's done." I said, "She's not doing that to MY dogs." 




onyx'girl said:


> If you are going to persue SchH with Godric why not start with a club now? You'll get guidance on the proper foundation for the age of the pup and the people in the club may set you in the right direction of an obedience class geared towards SchH dogs (If you still want to do a puppy type socializing class) I agree with above, new trainer asap!


 
Thanks! It was only goodness and treats with Godric (except for the leash idea), and it was mainly focusing on him making eye contact, or him paying attention to us when he's distracted, and sitting and laying down. Because she's only teaching us to do positive stuff with our boy, and since I already paid for another 5 sessions, I guess I'll stick it out, but there's no way I'm letting her correct him. I felt that that was totally the wrong thing for my MIL's dog. The only reason I decided to go to her for obedience training is because *SHE'S THE TRAINING DIRECTOR at the schutzhund club here! *

But I've been talking wih another member on this board who lives near where I do, and has directed me to another club. I'm hoping to go visit this Saturday!  As per her suggestion, I also just purchased this book:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001[/ame]


I just feel terrible about getting my MIL to come to this trainer, and she already paid, and the trainer is rough and terrible.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The book by Sheila Booth is wonderful! That will help you with foundation training your pup.
Tell MIL that she is the only one to handle her dog, just like you and your pup. Doesn't matter the age, the handler should be the one always to give a FAIR correction.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

> He was sitting on the leash, whining. The trainer said, "If you don't give him a real correction, he's going to do that all day, with you trying to give him small corrections and him still doing it."


As I read it, this was in reference to the 18 month old dog. This is a school of thought (And I subscribe to this...)That one good meaningful correction is 100 times better than dozens of nagging corrections. Now what counts as a meaningful correction varies depending on the hardness of the dog. A pretty forceful correction still will not get through to some harder dogs while other dogs only need a very light touch. Without seeing the situation and without seeing the dog's reaction it's impossible to say if it was used appropriately or not. Although I may agree that it might not have been the best route to go on the first class. 

If the dog is unable to focus on the handlers than you're never going to actually get any training done in a group class. That looks to be something that needs to be addressed first. I have seen this method used with dogs that are too focused on other older dogs (aggressive or otherwise) when the habit of ramping up around other dogs is pretty ingrained. Generally with puppies when they become focused on others we lure them away with treats or toys and ask them to watch of follow us to teach them to ignore other dogs. This might be something to try if your MIL's dog is able to be lured away. Unfortunately putting this lack of foundation in place with a puppy can sometime mean you have to go back and use less appealing methods. 



> The trainer did tell my husband and I that with our pup, if we're going to try schutzhund, then we go much slower, and she doesn't even expect him to have the obedience down until he's almost two, which seems a little crazy to me, when you're working with a puppy everyday and they learn so fast! But everything is so precise with schutzhund, so I don't know...? I knew to keep an eye out for anyone trying to push him too hard or too fast. Should I be keeping an eye out for someone not expecting enough of him as well? Haha. What would you say is the average or the norm?


There are so many roads to Rome... But it is generally true. When you work on SchH obedience...it's not enough for the dog to sit...The dog has to sit a certain way and learn to do it quickly while in drive. (Please go find some of Jason's videos of Ike...that puppy has a great attitude) Attitude is more important than actual exercises for a SchH puppy. You won't do any stay work generally. You won't really ask them not to pull on a leash until you have taught them a command to walk beside you...which you won't really get sown until later because you don't want it to interfere with your fuss command and because at some point they are going to have to pull into a collar and you don't want them to be confused...It goes on. So no. I do lots of foundation work with my puppy but it doesn't amount to anything really in terms of "Commands that He Can Perform". At 5.5 months Tag is learning to scoot sit (pull his butt under when he sits and not rock back), PLatz only from a stand, Spin to the right and left and move his back end, give attention, Follow me as I move backwards, and follow my hand as a lure for heeling. He is still operating largely on hand signals and I am just adding in words for Sot and Platz. Now does everyone do it this way? No. Again there are some people who like to put a lot of obedience on puppies. And there are other people (mostly old Germans...) who won't touch any formal obedience at all until the dog is a year old.



> She said we should put him on a leash and tie it to something and let him fight against it until he's tired, and then we can go out and "rescue" him, and then he'll be happy to walk with us.
> 
> Why would I let him fight against the leash? He's barely fighting it now, and when he starts to, I distract him, or call him or something and he stops. If I let him start to really fight it, won't he do it that much more next time? Wouldn't that teach him _not_ to like the leash? Why would I do that when he's already being good on it with just some treats or praise? He's walking with us because he's focused on us, not on the leash. I could see doing that if maybe you had an older dog who fights like crazy about walking on a leash, and you're trying to prove that fighting is futile, and that he won't escape, but for training a pup who has never been on one before?


Yeah I don't know. This is weird. 

I would agree that this is an older style of training. There may be things you can learn that are good and effective, but if you don't know enough to tell which things to take and which things to leave behind you might be better off with another trainer.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Ok, ok, hold up.

Why is a 10 week old puppy on the choke in the FIRST place?

IMO, EVERYTHING from birth to around 6-7months should be STRICTLY positive. You want to set the dog up enjoying what he does, enjoying being a puppy, and understanding that your relationship with him is NOT that of a slave driver. There is abolsutly NO excuse in my book to have corrected a dog that young so harshly... or, quite frankly, to have corrected him at all. 

You know what's a great way to get a puppy to shut up? Give him a toy/treat/distraction. Take his attention away from whatever it is that's winding him up, and REDIRECT HIM. Absolute raw MADNESS doing that to a 10 week old, she should be ashamed. I would have socked this lady clean in the mouth had she done that to my pup, and never gone back.

Once they start getting into the teenage phase, and start pushing their boundaries and getting full of piss and vinegar, that is where corrections start to come in (if you prefer that method... there ARE other ways to train a dog outside of positive punishment, though you should pick what style you are using based on your goals with the dog). 

Furthermore, you have a Czech/DDR dog. Throw out all notions of having a polished Sch dog by age two, cuz it just aint gonna happen. These dogs are, on average, VERY slow to mature. At 2 years, you will most likely still have a puppy on your hands mentally. Around 3 years is when they really start to come into their own, and I'd say by 4 they're in their prime

Do not expect more from your pup than he is physically and mentally able to give. You are bound for disappointment and failure if you do.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Reading through other people's posts, now I'm confused...

Who's dog got the correction? Godric, or MIL's dog?


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

I agree with the positive training only. I would not go back there. Try to get your money back. The long term effect emotionally and physically is not worth going back because you paid for it. As silly as it might sound I am a huge Victoria Stilwell (It's me or the dog) fan as far as her methods go. I love that she has people feel what it is like to be jerked around, shocked, etc.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

MIL's dog.



> *My mother-in-law brought her GSD who is a year and a half old for novice obedience.* He's never had formal training before.
> 
> Now, I have never done any sort of real training, so I'm not sure what's the norm, but I didn't feel comfortable with the way that she dealt with him. It was *his first class*, and his only interaction with dogs before has only been to play. *He goes to the dog park, or we bring our dogs to his house.* So he saw other dogs training nearby, and wanted to play, and barked a little and whined on the leash while we were standing there talking.
> 
> He was definitely not in a dangerous mindset or any such thing. He wasn't lunging or being out of control. He was sitting on the leash, whining. The trainer said, "If you don't give him a real correction, he's going to do that all day, with you trying to give him small corrections and him still doing it."


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

From experience and having a "helga" puppy...I would go with your gut here, I'll tell you what I would do in this class setting, and wishing I knew "then" what I know "now"..

Since you paid, I'd keep going (until I could stand it no longer),,I would not let this trainer put her hands on my PUPPY for anything other than positive..I would do what I wanted to do, handle things the way I wanted to handle them, taking away what I felt was good info, and throwing out the bad info/suggestions. 

He is VERY young, and there's no way in heck, I'd be doing any negative corrections on him, YOU have the right idea going, make things positive, concentrate on the good things, ignore the bad, set him up for success)

Make sure you have NO negative experiences with other dogs/puppies as well when socializing (granted things happen, but try to keep all other dog/people interactions GOOD things)

If I were you, check out the local library, on some dog training/behavior books.. Sheila Booth comes to mind,

I had some negative stuff happen in a puppy class, long story, had to rework alot.

As for maturing, correct, these dogs are slow to mature. Masi is 2.5 and really coming into her own as an adult, tho she is still a crazy puppy for the most part..)

ok done rambling..


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

JKlatsky said:


> MIL's dog.


Ah, I obviously did a poor job reading the OP's post.

Well, even so, I would do as others have said and go with your gut.
If she's doing this to MIL's dog, then it can only be a vision of the future.

If I can comment personally on that, even though this dog is older and not yours, I still would have not tolerated her correcting my dog like that. 

Mainly because I would not hand my dog over to anyone outside of helper work in the first place. My dog, my rules. By handing the dog off, unless you are told explicitly beforehand what's going to happen and you agree with it, you open him up to potential mishandling. 

Also because she blatantly set the dog up for failure. One should never TRY to create a negative response from a dog. If one arises, fine, correct it if you must. But to actually purposely put the dog in a situation where you KNOW he is going to react badly is poor training IMHO. 

In instances like that, where you know the dog is going to react to the other dogs (especially in this case, where the dog is doing it out of excitement/playfulness), then I'd say the best thing you can do it find EXACTLY how close you can get to the other dogs before a reaction, and take one step back. That's where you start. Build focus, build focus, build focus. Once you feel confident your dog's focus is solid from that distance, take a step forward. Dog reacts, simply step back and begin again. Dog DOESN'T react, continue on with training and moving forward.

At least this way the dog is never given a chance to associate the other dogs as a negative. Correcting a dog for being excited/happy to see other dogs has the looming potential to actually create trust issues and even aggression towards the other dogs. Would YOU want to go up and greet someone after having repeatedly been hit for even LOOKING at them?


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Since you paid, I'd keep going (until I could stand it no longer),,I would not let this trainer put her hands on my PUPPY for anything other than positive..I would do what I wanted to do, handle things the way I wanted to handle them, taking away what I felt was good info, and throwing out the bad info/suggestions.


This is fantastic advice, and exactly what I did when I was put in the OP's position. Unfortunately, it took a hard lesson for me to learn this cardinal rule: NEVER GIVE UP THE LEASH unless you 100% trust your trainer.

A local trainer recommended that I bring Luna to orientation to determine whether she should be in Puppy K or Beginning Obedience. He was going to use her for "a demonstration." She was 4 months old at the time.

Luna was pretty darn bored throughout the talking portion of orientation, so she was super excited when the trainer took her leash and brought her out the ring. I returned to my seat in the back. I was so proud of Luna because she had been going through a bit of a fear period, but she was so confident out in the ring. She was prancing around and looking as cute as can be.

The trainer put a choke on her. Warning bells went off in my head. I did NOTHING. BAD owner. 

The trainer started throwing treats for Luna. She thought it was great fun, of course! About the fourth time he threw a treat, he gave her a correction. She cried out in surprise... it broke my heart... I'm tearing up as I type this just remembering.

The rest of the people at the class gasped along with me... I stood up and started moving towards the ring. I was going to get my puppy out of there.

He threw a treat again... she went for it... another correction... another yelp. He threw a treat a third time.. this time she eyed him warily and didn't go for the treat. A few people in the crowed looked impressed... a few looked disgusted... I was horrified. I was so angry I couldn't even speak. I took Luna's leash and sat there, numb, through the rest of the orientation. We had to walk across the ring to go out the door and she cowered in fear when we got near it. 

I went to that class, because I'd already paid and didn't have the money to pay for a different class. I never again surrendered the leash, and ignored the trainer when he called me out for not giving corrections. If I was as confident an owner then as I am now... he would've heard A LOT more than silence from me.

So, yeah... the moral of the story: never give up the leash. Don't be afraid to stand up for your dog and your beliefs. If something is making you uncomfortable, it's not the right method for you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> The trainer started throwing treats for Luna. She thought it was great fun, of course! About the fourth time he threw a treat, he gave her a correction. She cried out in surprise... it broke my heart... I'm tearing up as I type this just remembering.
> 
> The rest of the people at the class gasped along with me... I stood up and started moving towards the ring. I was going to get my puppy out of there.
> 
> He threw a treat again... she went for it... another correction... another yelp. He threw a treat a third time.. this time she eyed him warily and didn't go for the treat. A few people in the crowed looked impressed... a few looked disgusted... I was horrified.


Ugh. I'm guessing this is his method of teaching "leave it"? :angryfire:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What I find sad is how many dogs do these "trainers" mess up?
I took Onyx to one that was more compulsion based for her first puppy class, she was corrected by the trainer the first night for lunging at another pup, my bad I let it happen.
But after that, I never let her take my dogs leash again. She had a prong put on a 4 month old GSD that was mouthing his owner, she recommended tying a cinderblock to dogs long lines outside if they didn't have good recall. Yeah, that will teach them to come to you...squirt bottles for barking, stick banging on the floor if the dog is at the door and you want him to not greet visitors excitedly... on and on.
My vet and I just discussed this trainer and she said she can't do the dogs nails that have been trained at this particular place because the trainer teaches squeezing the paws if the dog jumps up. Then the dogs hate to have their paws touched after that. I could go on and on, but it is the same old school techniques that have been proven to be ineffective for long term foundation training. 
Unfortunately the trainer I mention is affiliated(she leases a building on the vets property) with another vet clinic and very busy due to the vet referrals.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Sorry if I was a bit unclear, you guys. The trainer was fine with Godric. She didn't handle him more than to pet him or show us how to hold the treat to get him to lay down properly. Everything we did with him was positive.



JakodaCD OA said:


> From experience and having a "helga" puppy...I would go with your gut here, I'll tell you what I would do in this class setting, and wishing I knew "then" what I know "now"..
> 
> *Since you paid, I'd keep going (until I could stand it no longer),,I would not let this trainer put her hands on my PUPPY for anything other than positive..I would do what I wanted to do, handle things the way I wanted to handle them, taking away what I felt was good info, and throwing out the bad info/suggestions. *
> 
> ...


Thanks, you guys! She didn't try to correct Godric in any way, only taught us to give him treats and whatnot, and as far as that went, besides the weird leash recommendation, I probably would have felt fine going there, if not for my MIL's dog. I really wanted to be sure to do puppy classes early, so that he could be socialized with other people and dogs, since the dog park consensus seems to be a no-no.

My MIL's dog, Dexter, is a huge, very lean and lanky 95lb 1.5 year old GSD that's still very much a puppy. Although he's huge and has had no formal training, he's in no way out of control or unmanageable. She did the correction with him 2 or 3 times, then handed him to my mother-in-law to do it another few times. The trainer said that this would teach Dexter to pay attention to the handler, not the other dogs, because if he was paying attention to where she was going, he wouldn't have gotten jerked. Which might make sense... if you had ever taught him that he's supposed to pay attention to you on the leash in the first place. Dexter has never been taught to focus at all. It took the first 20 minutes of class just to get Dexter to glance at my MIL's eyes, and not constantly be looking at every distraction instead. How can you go from building the very basics of focus to giving a harsh correction for not having it?

They walked in the same path towards the same dog(s), and suddenly turned and yanked. Eventually, Dexter caught the idea that when they get to that spot, they'll turn and yank, so he learned what point to turn at. It's not because he was focused on his handler or ignoring distractions, it's because he didn't want to get jerked again.

I kinda think the trainer was trying to impress her by making a difference in Dexter after just one class. Unfortunately, my MIL totally bought it.

I'm going to forward these responses to my MIL (and read them to my husband), so keep them coming! It makes me feel so bad, because my MIL totally bought into it, and believes that's how it should be done, since that's what she was also taught in an obedience class 25 years ago. 

Maybe with your help, I can talk her out of it, and she can talk to the trainer and put a stop payment on her check or something. I paid cash, with no receipt or anything. Bummer. 

I was thinking the same thing, I'll keep going, but only do and take the positive things from it. 

At home, we never give him corrections - except with the cats. But we balance that out with treats when he's good with them too. I typed up a huge thing about how we're working on him with the cats, but I kinda think it belongs in another thread.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I took Kacie my rescue to classes(An AKC club), she would not focus on me at all either...because she was insecure and vulnerable feeling. I adopted her at 21 mos from a neglect/abandonment situation.
She had to make sure she was constantly aware of her surroundings, looking at me was not in her thoughts at all. I took her to these classes to build our bond and by the end of them, she would still not go into a platz position, as she felt too vulnerable. Food drive is nothing for her and so I really had to work to build her confidence/focus on me-clicker did work, but the reward was basically just verbal praise. 
I would almost stay with your trainer for this set of classes and state your(and your MIL) opinion when you think the trainer is over the line...I think it is better than just quitting and maybe the trainer will adjust her methods somewhat. The worst that can happen is she just won't like you!


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> This is fantastic advice, and exactly what I did when I was put in the OP's position. Unfortunately, it took a hard lesson for me to learn this cardinal rule: NEVER GIVE UP THE LEASH unless you 100% trust your trainer...
> 
> ...So, yeah... the moral of the story: never give up the leash. Don't be afraid to stand up for your dog and your beliefs. If something is making you uncomfortable, it's not the right method for you.


Truer words were never spoken. Many's the person who gets to learn how to clean up a behavioral mess, because some "expert" shows them how to train with "traditional, no-nonsense methods."

That is, if the mess can be cleaned up at all.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

For a heads up, my husband thinks I'm overreacting and slightly exaggerating how hard she yanked on the leash, and that I worded the story to illicit the reaction that I want from you guys. I don't think this is true, but I am willing to admit that everyone perceives things differently.

Then again, he didn't think what she did was that bad, although he admits that it could have been a milder correction.

So if she didn't yank as hard as it appeared to me, and if it didn't go exactly the way that _I perceived it_ and am telling you, do you still think that it was a poor training method? I know it's hard to say without actually being there.

My husband doesn't think she did anything wrong, though he says it could have been done more mildly. I agree that if it were done with a simple slight tug to the chain and a call for him to follow her, I would have thought it was a tad different than I was hoping for, but wouldn't have been freaking out about it. 

But the difference in our opinions is that even if I'm exaggerating how it happened, I think he shouldn't really have been corrected _at all_ at that point, with no foundation of positive training done in the first place.

*How can you teach him what he's doing wrong without teaching him what's right first?* The very first thing they talked about is Dexter's lack of focus and that he's always distracted. My MIL never trained him to have any focus as a pup. When she tells him to sit or lay down, he will, but she has to say it a couple of times, and then he only does it for a few seconds. 

She could have had her practice walking him with a treat or a toy, and trying to keep his focus on her and distract him from the other dogs, and when he got better at THAT, then later you can do slight corrections if he's doing the wrong thing.

Am I wrong?


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Nope. You are right. Sorry, husband!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I still wouldn't do any correction on a dog because they aren't focused on me..I would make myself more exciting~ work on that. Otherwise the dog will disengage all the more. And nagging corrections is just going to cause him to check out. This is for a dog in early stage training, not one that has been proofed of course. 
I agree with what Rott-n-GSD posted, excellent advice!


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

You are not wrong.

My previous opinion stands:



atravis said:


> Also because she blatantly set the dog up for failure. One should never TRY to create a negative response from a dog. If one arises, fine, correct it if you must. But to actually purposely put the dog in a situation where you KNOW he is going to react badly is poor training IMHO.
> 
> In instances like that, where you know the dog is going to react to the other dogs (especially in this case, where the dog is doing it out of excitement/playfulness), then I'd say the best thing you can do it find EXACTLY how close you can get to the other dogs before a reaction, and take one step back. That's where you start. Build focus, build focus, build focus. Once you feel confident your dog's focus is solid from that distance, take a step forward. Dog reacts, simply step back and begin again. Dog DOESN'T react, continue on with training and moving forward.
> 
> At least this way the dog is never given a chance to associate the other dogs as a negative. Correcting a dog for being excited/happy to see other dogs has the looming potential to actually create trust issues and even aggression towards the other dogs. Would YOU want to go up and greet someone after having repeatedly been hit for even LOOKING at them?


INTENTIONALLY creating a negative reaction from your dog is only setting him up for failure... literally. It is asking your dog to fail, so that you may correct him for doing so. Logical, right?

In these instances, building tolerance levels and gradually working your way towards a goal is likely going to do more good for the dog than anything else.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I never really addressed your MIL's dog in my previous post so will ,,,I think for a first class, considering the dog had never really been in a class, never around a bunch of strange dogs,,he most likely acted rather normal ,,and for the trainer to pull that in the FIRST class, is wrong to me.

Now, if he was lunging, barking, trying to rip some dog's throat out, I could see it, but a "first class" for the dog and owner, I think it was a little harsh. I think something else could have been done, as in have your MIL walk away, work on redirecting focus on her, with food, toy, whatever..

I would have kept him at a distance vs throwing him into a situation that he'd never encountered before , I'm sure stressing him out some..

And I LIKE your thinking!
"How can you teach him what he's doing wrong without teaching him what's right first"!

Ok, with that I want to see some updated pics of Godric !!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackviolet said:


> The trainer said that this would teach Dexter to pay attention to the handler, not the other dogs, because if he was paying attention to where she was going, he wouldn't have gotten jerked. Which might make sense... if you had ever taught him that he's supposed to pay attention to you on the leash in the first place. Dexter has never been taught to focus at all. It took the first 20 minutes of class just to get Dexter to glance at my MIL's eyes, and not constantly be looking at every distraction instead. How can you go from building the very basics of focus to giving a harsh correction for not having it?


Exactly. This poor dog probably had no idea why he's being yanked around, and unfortunately the trainer has not given your MIL any instruction on how to teach him. To say that correcting him for NOT looking at her would teach him TO look at her is expecting a huge leap of logic that a dog is just not capable of.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Ok, with that I want to see some updated pics of Godric !!!


 
Haha, aww, I'll get some uploaded. Here's a quick clip I took with my phone:





 
This was two days ago, before we went to the class, and learned that he wasn't laying down precisely enough because he walks his feet out. Anyway, we had only worked with him off and on for about 20 minutes that night, just trying to teach him.

He wasn't doing it every time, but shhh! He did it for the camera, so it looks good, haha. Now that we're trying to teach him to lay down properly, he doesn't lay down on command at all anymore. :smirk: Booo.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackviolet said:


> For a heads up, my husband thinks I'm overreacting and slightly exaggerating how hard she yanked on the leash, and that I worded the story to illicit the reaction that I want from you guys. I don't think this is true, but I am willing to admit that everyone perceives things differently.
> 
> Then again, he didn't think what she did was that bad, although he admits that it could have been a milder correction.
> 
> So if she didn't yank as hard as it appeared to me, and if it didn't go exactly the way that _I perceived it_ and am telling you, do you still think that it was a poor training method?


YES. Because it's not teaching the dog anything. Dogs are very literal and they don't generalize. If you can put yourself in the dog's, er, _paws_ (and I think you've actually been doing that quite well) what is he getting from this? 



> They walked in the same path towards the same dog(s), and suddenly turned and yanked. Eventually, Dexter caught the idea that when they get to that spot, they'll turn and yank, so he learned what point to turn at. It's not because he was focused on his handler or ignoring distractions, it's because he didn't want to get jerked again.


Ask your husband how the dog knows he's being corrected for not paying attention to his mother? How does the dog know he's not being corrected for going past that spot on the floor? How does he know he's not being corrected for getting too close to that particular dog?

What seems clear to us (because we KNOW what we're trying to teach the dog) is not always what the dog is learning because if we're not clear, they DON'T know what we're trying to teach them. That's why corrections as a teaching tool are not really useful. Put it to him this way - if you're trying to teach a dog the sit command how many correct responses are there? One, yes? The dog sits. Now think about how many things other than sit that the dog could do instead. If you correct him every time he doesn't sit without first teaching him what that command MEANS, all he knows is what sit isn't, not what sit is. It's simple logic.

And since dogs don't generalize, at first he many only understand sit when he's in front of you, toe to toe, because that how you first taught him the command. Sitting next to you is brand new because he doesn't know that "sit" means to plant his butt no matter where he is, no matter what he's doing, and no matter where you are in relation to him. If he can sit on cue with your back turned or when he's in the car, or with you sitting in a chair/on the couch/laying on the floor, if he can sit in the backyard and the garage and the vets office, at the park...... THEN you know he understands the concept.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

One thing you can tell your husband and MIL is that behavior that is rewarded will increase. Behavior that is ignored will extinguish. Dogs do what works to get what they want - if something doesn't work or used to work but no longer does, they'll stop doing that and try something else. 

Not all behavior CAN be ignored, sometimes you do have to address it, but a perfect example of how you would use this concept is a dog that's demands attention, maybe by barking. If you continue to give him ANY attention on demand, even so much as look at him, tell him "no" or push him away, you're reinforcing the behavior, guaranteeing that it's going to continue. On the other hand if you pretend he doesn't exist, turn around and walk away, he's going to figure out pretty quickly that demanding attention isn't the way to go, especially if you never let him get away with it from the very beginning. 

But you also need to reinforce the behavior you want and make that work for him by acknowledging it with praise, petting, a tiny treat - whatever floats his boat. I guarantee that if your MIL starts carrying a treat bag around the house, and every time her dog looks at her she marks it ("yes!") and tosses him a treat he will be following her around the house staring at her in no time. She'll have to pry him off her, lol!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Put it to him this way - if you're trying to teach a dog the sit command how many correct responses are there? One, yes? The dog sits. Now think about how many things other than sit that the dog could do instead. *If you correct him every time he doesn't sit without first teaching him what that command MEANS, all he knows is what sit isn't, not what sit is*.


Another danger of this kind of "training" is that if corrected enough for doing the wrong thing he'll give up and stop trying. If he does nothing he does nothing wrong. But if he guesses wrong he gets yanked by the neck. 

By showing him what you want and then rewarding him for doing it right, not only are you very clear about what the command actually means, you also have a dog who is not afraid to try. If he does it wrong nothing happens - nothing good, but nothing bad either. But if he does it right, he gets happy praise, and a treat. You get a dog who enjoys training and willingly and happily complies.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is ssoooooooo cute!! good job !!


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> he is ssoooooooo cute!! good job !!


 
Haha, thanks.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Does anyone have some goos training articles about how to set a dog up to succeed, rather than correcting it for failing?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You are getting the Purely postive training book by Sheila Booth? That will be all you need!


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

First rule of dog training/trainers: If you are not comfortable with the trainer and the methods, GET OUT. I would never let anyone, trainer or not, take my dog's leash until/unless I knew that trainer and trusted him/her implicitly. A puppy _should_ be corrected for unwelcome noise (barking, whining, etc) but in a puppy pre-school class the type of correction you described is just too much. In the puppy pre-school classes in our club we don't even put correction collars on the pups: just flat buckle collars. Puppy pre-school is about learning proper socialization and rewarding the pups for correct behavior (which you GUIDE them into), not to turn them off of training by frightening them with harsh corrections.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Another danger of this kind of "training" is that if corrected enough for doing the wrong thing he'll give up and stop trying. If he does nothing he does nothing wrong. But if he guesses wrong he gets yanked by the neck.
> 
> By showing him what you want and then rewarding him for doing it right, not only are you very clear about what the command actually means, you also have a dog who is not afraid to try. If he does it wrong nothing happens - nothing good, but nothing bad either. But if he does it right, he gets happy praise, and a treat. You get a dog who enjoys training and willingly and happily complies.


Positive ONLY training doesn't work for all things and often will take a LONG time.

It is very true that dogs do what they feel rewards them. How would you correct a behavior that is in itself rewarding to a dog - i.e. counter surfing where the dog gets good things to munch by doing so? The advice I got from a positive only trainer was "don't leave food on the counter". Or how about barking at someone. The dog likes barking - it can be self rewarding?

A reasonable correction is a real good thing to teach a dog about unacceptable behavior and is not punishment but more of a wakeup to the dog about what is acceptable.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

We've recently been through two puppy classes and two obedience classes resulting in both pups getting their Canine Good Citizen certificate- never once did I see any of the 3 trainers we had take the leash from anyone or make any kind of correction. I don't think I ever heard anyone say the word 'no'. Uschi was especially distracted, full of energy and had trouble focusing but when she got antsy I was instructed to walk her in a small circle, back to the seated heel position she was supposed to be in and give her the command again. Fun, positive reinforcement, praise were always stressed and given, in fact, I was constantly reminded that I wasn't praising enough, not told to yank the dog off it's feet!


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

cute video...

do positive training as much as possible. yanking a 10 week old puppy off the ground with a choker is complete B.S. no matter what circumstance. 

I would not go back to that trainer, and ask for a refund.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

chicagojosh said:


> cute video...
> 
> do positive training as much as possible. yanking a 10 week old puppy off the ground with a choker is complete B.S. no matter what circumstance.
> 
> I would not go back to that trainer, and ask for a refund.


 
She didn't touch the puppy, it was my MIL's year and a half old dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Positive ONLY training doesn't work for all things and often will take a LONG time.


Please don't take my words out of context. :nono: Nobody is promoting "postive ONLY" training with no corrections of any kind, ever. In this thread we're specifically talking about a 10/11 week old puppy, for whom training SHOULD be fun and positive, it's way too early to start thinking about corrections (other than verbal, which nobody has suggested are a problem), and a year and a half old dog who has had no training. 

My point, and what many other people have said too, is that you need to TEACH the dog something before you start correcting him for not doing it. Corrections are not a good way to teach new behaviors because they don't provide the dog with enough information - only what not to do, not what TO do.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Please don't take my words out of context. :nono: *Nobody is promoting "postive ONLY" training* with no corrections of any kind, ever. ............
> 
> No? What exactly then would you call this from Onyxgirl:
> "You are getting the *Purely postive training* book by Sheila Booth? That will be all you need!"
> ...


*Maybe you should try to read what I and others actually have said before you try to correct someone?*

*BTW, How about teaching a dog the command "No" simply and exactly to Stop what they are doing! Don't imagine that you would be in favor of that one. Or how about "Leave it"?*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you read the book by Sheila Booth, Codmaster? 
From the introduction, page 4:

_Positive training does not mean permissive. The dog does not get to do whatever he wants to do. The dog must demonstrate acceptable behavior in order to get his reward. Positive training produces dogs who are happy and eager to learn. It produces willing dogs who are full of joy in their work._

I believe you can train a dog using this type method. The words NO or Leave It are fine, you are communicating with the dog. Why be so nit-picky?
You can also train using compulsion, but is the dog eager and willing to work? Or is he just going thru the motions out of fear of a correction?
I'd much rather have a willing partner.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Ugh. I'm guessing this is his method of teaching "leave it"? :angryfire:


Yep, and pretty much all Luna got out of his little lesson was "obedience class is scary and no fun." Fortunately, we were able to work through it, and I'm happy to say Luna has a very good "leave it" that was taught with positive methods. 

I personally try to use mostly positive methods with my dogs, particularly with learned behaviors. I am not against corrections, but think they have a time and a place. My dogs will never get a correction for failing to do a command on a learned behavior. Training should be fun... and though I do plan to compete in various events (agility, obedience, skijoring), I think those should be fun, too.

I have used corrections with behaviors like cat chasing and aggression towards other dogs.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

You know what, it was the first day of class. Dogs are always excited and a little unruly the first day. I think the correction was too harsh and unnecessary. 

I don't use any corrections when training, ever! I train my dogs in the backyard without a leash. Each of my dogs has a different learning style, so I use drive, or food, or whatever motivates them. When I take them to classes and need to use a leash, I put on a flat leather collar. 

And I learned a long time ago - never give up the leash. (Unless you know the trainer and his/her methods.)


ETA-- I have that book, "Purely Positive Training". I haven't read it in ages, but I do remember it is a good book. I just can't remember exactly what's in it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Have you read the book by Sheila Booth, Codmaster?
> From the introduction, page 4:
> 
> _Positive training does not mean permissive. The dog does not get to do whatever he wants to do. The dog must demonstrate acceptable behavior in order to get his reward. Positive training produces dogs who are happy and eager to learn. It produces willing dogs who are full of joy in their work._
> ...


Without a correction, how do you get the dog to stop what they are doing at the time? Do not say "redirection" as that is of course a type of mild correction. 

When I asked one PO trainer in my obedience club how to stop a dog from growling at her family kids when it was eating and they came near the dog - the answer was "Keep the kids away while she is eating!". That to me is not a satisfactory answer for dog training.

A reasonable (linked to the size and temperament of the dog and also the type of transgression) correction will NOT stop a dog from enjoying training whatsoever. And most of the training is of course based on praise and other rewards suitable to the dog.

BTW isn't "No" considered a correction? It is by the PO trainers that I have talked to.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Positive ONLY training doesn't work for all things and often will take a LONG time.


I don't believe that. I do obedience, rally, tracking and agility with my dogs and use purely positive training. They learn fast, usually within 5 minutes, what I want. If they think they can get away with doing something else, the game is over and they don't like that. But that's very rare, and they learn that playing my game is much more fun than not playing any game. 

I seriously don't use anything harsher than a firm "no" on the rare occasion when there's a problem. And when they aren't "getting it", they hear, "let's try that again".


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Without a correction, how do you get the dog to stop what they are doing at the time? Do not say "redirection" as that is of course a type of mild correction.
> 
> When I asked one PO trainer in my obedience club how to stop a dog from growling at her family kids when it was eating and they came near the dog - the answer was "Keep the kids away while she is eating!". That to me is not a satisfactory answer for dog training.
> 
> ...


So if I gave you a good hard pop or a scruff shake, would you stop riding this horse to death?


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

codmaster said:


> When I asked one PO trainer in my obedience club how to stop a dog from growling at her family kids when it was eating and they came near the dog.


I've had dogs do this. I do not make corrections for growling. My thinking is a growl is a warning. Not heeding the warning, COULD lead to a bite. If you extinguish the growl, you don't have any warning that a bite might come.

When a dog growls because it thinks I'm too close to its food, first I go to the refridgerator and find something in there that the dogs likes better than what's currently in the bowl. Then I approach the dog with it. The dog see's better food and abandons the bowl. When the dog is eating the new better food, I pick up the bowl. When the dog is finished eating the new better food, I start hand feeding what is in the bowl to the dog. I then do the hand feeding for a couple of days to reinforce that good stuff comes from me. 

This works when a dog is growling because it had a yummy bone. I make a switch, then the dog gets the bone back.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

BlackPuppy said:


> I've had dogs do this. I do not make corrections for growling. My thinking is a growl is a warning. Not heeding the warning, COULD lead to a bite. If you extinguish the growl, you don't have any warning that a bite might come.


I'm working with a friend of mine and a BC she recently adopted. The growl was "trained out" of this dog. When he felt threatened, he bit... there was no warning whatsoever.

The good news is, we're having success training the growl back into this dog, and he no longer lashes out without warning (and he hasn't lashed out/bitten in quite awhile).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So if I gave you a good hard pop or a scruff shake, would you stop riding this horse to death?


Might be "handler aggressive" for that!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> *Maybe you should try to read what I and others actually have said before you try to correct someone?*
> 
> *BTW, How about teaching a dog the command "No" simply and exactly to Stop what they are doing! Don't imagine that you would be in favor of that one. Or how about "Leave it"?*


Well, you didn't quote Onyxgirl's post where she recommended the book (which is excellent, BTW!), you quoted MY post, implying that *I* was recommending ONLY positive training even though I said no such thing. If you objected to her book recommendation, perhaps it would have been more clear to have quoted her, not me. "Purely Positive Training" is the book title, have you read it?

Nobody is saying that the dog should not learn "no" or "leave it". And why would you assume that I "wouldn't be in favor of that"? But this was the _first_ day of the_ first_ training class the dog had ever taken! No effort had been made to TEACH the dog what those words meant. And I will say that I'm completely opposed to teaching "leave it" by yanking on the dog whenever they move towards something. Later, after they know what it means and are blowing me off? Sure. But not to train the command in the first place.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I'm working with a friend of mine and a BC she recently adopted. The growl was "trained out" of this dog. When he felt threatened, he bit... there was no warning whatsoever.
> 
> The good news is, we're having success training the growl back into this dog, and he no longer lashes out without warning (and he hasn't lashed out/bitten in quite awhile).


Great that you are having success. that is the key!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Might be "handler aggressive" for that!


I like a challenge! 
:rofl:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> A reasonable (linked to the size and temperament of the dog and also the type of transgression) correction will NOT stop a dog from enjoying training whatsoever.


Sure. And what most of us have been saying is that this was NOT a reasonable correction under the circumstances! Are you saying that it was? Or did you just see this as another opportunity to climb on your soapbox and you didn't really care if it was relevant to this particular situation?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

opcorn:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sure. And what most of us have been saying is that this was NOT a reasonable correction under the circumstances! Are you saying that it was? Or did you just see this as another opportunity to climb on your soapbox and you didn't really care if it was relevant to this particular situation?


*Soapbox?* Heh! Heh!

*Please read what I have written and then let me know where you think I said anything about what the trainer did to the dog was reasonable!*

We certainly do not have to agree about training methods or approaches (and obviously don't)1

So how about you train your dog your way, and I will train mine my way?

I also happen to think that a good trainer can and does adjust his/her training method and approach to the individual dog that they are working with. I hope that you would agree with that?

Have a nice day!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> *Please read what I have written and then let me know where you think I said anything about what the trainer did to the dog was reasonable!*


I couldn't tell whether you thought it was or not, which was why I asked. You didn't say. :shrug: In the middle of a thread about what many people thought was an improper and ineffective way to begin training with a dog that had no prior training and had never attended a class before, you didn't defend the trainer's methods OR disagree with them. Instead, you ignored the specifics of the situation the OP was asking for input on and said this:



> Positive ONLY training doesn't work for all things and often will take a LONG time.
> 
> It is very true that dogs do what they feel rewards them. How would you correct a behavior that is in itself rewarding to a dog - i.e. counter surfing where the dog gets good things to munch by doing so? The advice I got from a positive only trainer was "don't leave food on the counter". Or how about barking at someone. The dog likes barking - it can be self rewarding?
> 
> A reasonable correction is a real good thing to teach a dog about unacceptable behavior and is not punishment but more of a wakeup to the dog about what is acceptable.


:thinking: This is not the first time you've posted in a thread with the (apparently) sole purpose of defending corrections, because (again, apparently) you think everybody else is saying they should never be used (nobody actually said that) and then gone on to discuss using corrections in circumstances that have absolutely nothing to do with the context of the thread you're posting in! That's why I made the soapbox comment - you're arguing something completely different than what the thread is about, against points nobody ever made. To what purpose? 



> I also happen to think that a good trainer can and does adjust his/her training method and approach to the individual dog that they are working with. I hope that you would agree with that?


I DO agree with that. (Imagine! *gasp*) I think you make a lot of assumptions about me and other people who choose to teach our dogs what we want from them with motivational methods before we start correcting them for not knowing what we want. It gets tiresome. The points that you argue are fine, and yes, you can train your dog any way you want, but wouldn't it be more productive to find a thread where those points are actually relevant to the discussion at hand rather than throwing them in all over the place where they don't even apply?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy'sMom,

I was responding to comments directing the OP to a positive only approach to her dog - you are right in that I do not agree with that approach - because it doesn't work with many dogs and/or many would be trainers. Whether you like the approach is irrelevant. I was attempting to respond to others email when you jumped in without really understanding what was going on. 

*"This is not the first time you've posted in a thread with the (apparently) sole purpose of defending corrections, because (again, apparently) you think everybody else is saying they should never be used (nobody actually said that (Yes some responses did exactly that - try reading all of the posts! before you comment) and then gone on to discuss using corrections in circumstances that have absolutely nothing to do with the context of the thread you're posting in! (Actually the discussion was about a trainers methods using admittedly too strong a correction - and I agree they were too much - hence my comment about a reasonable level of correction. And I do apologize if you could not understand what I said!) That's why I made the soapbox comment - you're arguing something completely different than what the thread is about, against points nobody ever made. To what purpose?" ???????????????
*

*But enough, --- no mas! I do not have the time, energy or even the desire to discuss this with you - SO you win!
*


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Positive ONLY training doesn't work for all things and often will take a LONG time.
> 
> It is very true that dogs do what they feel rewards them. How would you correct a behavior that is in itself rewarding to a dog - i.e. counter surfing where the dog gets good things to munch by doing so? The advice I got from a positive only trainer was "don't leave food on the counter". Or how about barking at someone. The dog likes barking - it can be self rewarding?
> 
> A reasonable correction is a real good thing to teach a dog about unacceptable behavior and is not punishment but more of a wake up to the dog about what is acceptable.


 
1. You're wrong about non coercive behavioral training not being efficient and not being able to train anything that traditional training can. If you have an experienced competent trainer, then it's faster. It's easy to see how skills (especially complex behavior chains) are acquired, so if the skill breaks down at any point, you can easily go back and fix that weak "link" in the chain. There is virtually no behavior than can't be trained via "positive only" training whether it's service dogs to guide their handlers through New York city or Navy Dolphins to search for mines in the waters of the Persian Gulf. 

Many of the top names in "positive only" training are specialists in rehabbing aggressive dogs. For some reason, people (not necessarily you) think that for aggressive dogs, we need more coercive training. Nope. Not at all.

2. There is no "reasonable" correction. Do I tell my dogs "no"? Yes, it slips out now and then; but I'm very careful not to use it when giving commands and especially during training sessions, because I am aware about poisoning cues. 

But there are consequences from that. Read "Coercion and Its Fallout" by Murray Sidman. A dog that has been trained via +R (especially via shaping and capturing) gladly offers behaviors. A dog that has received +P on a regular basis may practice avoidance; he may tune out or shut down. 

Unfortunately, for a lot of people, a quiet shut down dog is their idea of an "obedient" dog.

Finally "purely positive," "positive only" and all those labels are kind of worthless. I've seen traditional trainers use clickers AND punishers, but they call themselves clicker trainers. I've seen threads here where a trainer called herself that, was going to use an e-collar, and clearly had NO clue about learning theory. Zero. 

And frankly, it doesn't matter WHAT someone calls him/herself, if they're not any good, you won't see progress. 

But there's research that shows animals, including dogs, that are trained with markers and no coercives learn faster. 

I've done it both ways. I always thought clicker training was kind of cool, but not for me. Then I tried it (when one of my dogs would shut down if I corrected her even slightly), and thought it useful. I liked the fact that Ed Frawley changed his mind about it, and figured that if Ed did, I could too. Then I met and trained under two gifted leaders in the non-coercisive training field and saw ALL of the possibilities. 

We can stay with what we know and what we're comfortable with. Or we can look around and see what else is out there. For me, my dogs are worth my getting out of my comfort zone ESPECIALLY if it means they don't get a leash pop or even me saying the world "no" to them again. 

At the end of the day, I want happy, precisely trained dogs. This gets me there faster than anything else I've ever done.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

3K9Mom said:


> 1. You're wrong about non coercive behavioral training not being efficient
> 
> *Jean Donaldson in her book "The Cultural Clash" (2nd ED) said on page 35 "But it might be less reliable than if you added avoidance." *
> *She is talking here about teaching retrieving. BTW, this is an excellent book I thought.*
> ...


*First - great discussion! Thanks!*

If it works for you, and evidently it does, that is what you should use.

A key to training is what you said when you talked about your dog who would 'shut down' with a correction. 

With him/her you should not use corrections of course. Some dogs are very "soft" and will do that. Other dogs are much tougher in temperament and personality, maybe more independent - sort of like the mule - "once you get their attention they will listen very well"!

For some dog aggressive dogs a harsh correction will work very well in getting them out of it, (I have had one); other dog aggressive dogs a harsh correction will do nothing but ramp him up even more (I have one of these now!). A small "attention only" correction and redirection works with our current dog.

Very different dogs and very different methods - part of the fun of training dogs like GSD's.

That is my point - no one method or one approach will work with equally well all dogs for all training.

BTW, have you heard about the killer whale in Florida that attacked and killed one of it's handlers? I think that this was one of the animals that a couple of my PO trainer friends always cited as an example of the overwhelming reason for using the PO approach for dogs! Makes one think!

One quick question - imagine that you are first learning to drive a car. Imagine further that your instructor is a PO type - no corrections! Only praise when you do something right!

How long would it take you to learn to drive the car?

Now change that to include some gentle corrections when you do something wrong - i.e. drift over into the wrong lane, or maybe make a turn with no signal, or take off from a parking place with out looking in the rear view mirror.

Note I am not advocating severe "punishment" like a whack upside the head (or a severe leash correction) when you don't signal - just a "reasonable" correction like saying "AAHH You must use the turn signal when before you make a turn". then give them another chance and a hearty "Great signal" when you do it right.

Which do you think would result in getting trained faster and better to pass your driving test faster and more efficiently?

That is my point and I will now retire from this thread!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I can't deal with the long posts so am not going to reply quote by quote, *but faster isn't better*...a solid foundation will go much farther than coercing a dog into behaving in a timeframe. Lesson building along the chains as suggested above will carry the dog to success.

So you pass your drivers test, and then t-bone someone because you were so quick to get a license that you forgot to yield...I'd feel really bad if I were in either car.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, if "ahhh" is going to be used to signal that something is non-rewardable behavior it does not need to be "corrective" in nature most of the time. My dogs have a non-reward marker early on in their positive foundation. It is unemotional, non-punative in sound and simply gives the dog more information. With positive marks and non-reward information... yes, they do learn to drive faster.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I won't go into it line by line. But one of my trainers is a former marine mammal trainer, and I assure you, not every marine mammal trainer is a positive only trainer. Not by a long shot. I know about that Sea World incident, and others over the years. This particular animal had issues that were unresolved. We can't simply look at wild animals that should be migrating thousands of miles every year but are instead swimming around in small tanks and say well, he snapped, so this training on DOMESTIC dogs can't be very effective...or even, that the system has flaws based on what happened in one tank with one animal. 

There are different types of marine mammal training. I've seen Sea World's set up behind the scenes, and I was extraordinarily fortunate to see the Navy's behind the scenes. Let's not use Sea World's as an example.

As for your student driver example, I had a calm professional driver's ed instructor, and I had my dad. My dad nitpicked about everything I did wrong. The instructor simply gave me guidance. Which would you rather drive with? Guess who I STILL don't like to drive with?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Samba said:


> Well, if "ahhh" is going to be used to signal that something is non-rewardable behavior it does not need to be "corrective" in nature most of the time. My dogs have a non-reward marker early on in their positive foundation. It is unemotional, non-punative in sound and simply gives the dog more information. With positive marks and non-reward information... yes, they do learn to drive faster.


I do that too, and I do think of it as a verbal correction, but I also refer to it as a negative marker. Some people call it a "no reward marker". Doesn't really matter what you call it, I agree that it provides valuable information to the dog - basically "not that, try again", if I'm actively training a skill, or "don't do that" in some other circumstances, such as targeting the kitty or veering towards that yummy pile of cow poop! :rofl: 

There are people that don't believe in using negative markers, the trainer in one of Halo's classes instructed us not to. In Halo's next class the trainer instructed us TO use them. :crazy: Didn't matter to me, I'd been using them for nearly 10 years, and I continued to do so during and after both classes. It just makes sense to me to let the dog know when they did it wrong as well as when they did it right, especially when you're working on duration, where you might not want to mark and reward quite yet. Praise says "that's it, keep doing what you're doing and the reward will follow", and a negative marker lets them know that they're on the wrong track entirely.

_And NONE of this has anything whatsoever to do with yanking the crap out of a dog with a leash correction on the first day of his first ever training class before making any attempt whatsoever to teach him what's expected of him. _


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

No, the yanking event is pretty absurd and a far cry from the finer points of communication in training.

My non-reward marker isn't a correction,really. One place I go to train there are so many of those "eeeeehhhhhhhh" (screech) correctors that sometimes I simply have to leave the room in order to train there another day. I was pleased to hear that they recently had seminar where the teacher spoke quite clearly to the problem. Funny how someone from the outside is able to say things others can not get away with.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Good discussion with many different approaches covered.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I always love how if a training facility uses corrections/complusion they get cruxified right from the get go on here, said that they have no idea how to train a dog, that there methods basically are no good.. yada, yada, yada.. 

It just saddends me that people are that biased without ever seeing these places..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

definately ^^ I think any training place is worth checking out , if you don't decide to 'go' with it, then that is a person's choice. It's never a 'bad' thing to see what's out there, different methods and how they work with different dogs.

I"m all for positive training, and have used positive methods TO train, however, there are times when a correction IS needed , so I tend to take from here and there and use what works.

I've posted before, about taking Masi to a purely positive puppy obed class, which ended up being quite a negative experience for her, had to deprogram ALOT of things, it wasn't the "method" itself per se, but the unstructured atmosphere of the class..Long story short, I ended up going to another person I know, who trains mostly old Koehler method, and I have to say, Masi LOVED the place, LOVED going, and LOVES training there,,I would say the trainer isn't diehard koehler, but no treats/toys are involved. She does NOT shut down, in fact it amps her up..

So whatever works, short of beating a dog is not always a 'bad' thing.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thank you Diane!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

anytime leesa)))


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think it always pays to see whats around for training by going and observing as many as possible before making a decision ...........i would definitely never go into a class not knowing what to expect, it could be disasterous.......

alot of trainers are old school, alot of trainers only have one way, which i would RUN from, and alot of trainers have no idea how to read and handle gsd's..........

i made a huge mistake with Sam he had some issues when we started puppy classes i figured it was just being unsure stuff, when it was more than that....he had some genetic shortcomings in the fear/unsure dept.........anyway, the trainer at the time was an old school trainer who believed that throwing them in and letting them work it out was the way to go.........i had some very bad vibes, and finally decided after some situations to take him out........if i had kept re-exposing him to some of this crap i would have had Major problems..................

So, don't second guess yourself if you aren't feeling totally positive about a class/trainer, move on to something else..............our dogs will pick up on our feelings and if our feeling are negative about anything in class or trainer, you might as well not bother to go at all..........


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Here's a question that's a little off-topic, but still sorta the same thing. While I was there, they had an animal-aggressive dog there. For an entire hour, they had this dog practicing heeling, walking back and forth, and part of that back and forth route was near other dogs. As far as I could tell (I was facing their direction), every time this dog went anywhere within 5-10 feet of another dog, it'd stare and/or growl and lunge, and they'd give her a sharp leash correction and "NO!" and keep walking. 

Now obviously I understand the correction for that. However, they did this for an hour, and from the little we spoke, it seemed like the dog had been coming for at least a while, and as far as I could tell (however, I could be mistaken), no matter how many times she was corrected, she did the same thing every time. What do you think of this method, and what other ways could those people go about training their dog to be less animal-aggressive? Is there a more positive and perhaps more productive way?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

blackviolet said:


> Here's a question that's a little off-topic, but still sorta the same thing. While I was there, they had an animal-aggressive dog there. For an entire hour, they had this dog practicing heeling, walking back and forth, and part of that back and forth route was near other dogs. As far as I could tell (I was facing their direction), every time this dog went anywhere within 5-10 feet of another dog, it'd stare and/or growl and lunge, and they'd give her a sharp leash correction and "NO!" and keep walking.
> 
> Now obviously I understand the correction for that. However, they did this for an hour, and from the little we spoke, it seemed like the dog had been coming for at least a while, and as far as I could tell (however, I could be mistaken), no matter how many times she was corrected, she did the same thing every time. What do you think of this method, and what other ways could those people go about training their dog to be less animal-aggressive? Is there a more positive and perhaps more productive way?


There are of course other ways to try to address the DA. I know because we are doing a similar thing now with sub threshhold stuff and with redirection.

Most trainers who practice the correction approach you describe would probably tell you that the corrections being applied as you also described were "not motivating enough", in other words were not strong enough to work.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

debbiebrown said:


> i think it always pays to see whats around for training by going and observing as many as possible before making a decision ...........i would definitely never go into a class not knowing what to expect, it could be disasterous.......
> 
> alot of trainers are old school, alot of trainers only have one way, which i would RUN from, and alot of trainers have no idea how to read and handle gsd's....................................


Or don't like GSD's or even might be a little afraid of them - we saw a little of this at some obedience classes we took ours to.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> ialot of trainers are old school, alot of trainers only have one way, which i would RUN from, and alot of trainers have no idea how to read and handle gsd's..........


Yeah, I picked her because she has three GSD's of her own and is the training director of our local schutzhund club. It sounded perfect. It's not. I mean, she hasn't done anything I didn't like with Godric, but if I don't like her methods with other older dogs, then who knows if she's even teaching me the proper puppy methods? They might not be corrections, but they might not be the best ideas, either. I don't have the experience to really know the difference, as long as I'm feeding treats and not giving corrections, haha.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think you have to go with your gut feeling, if you are uncomfortable with some of the training mentods thats warrent enough to find something different.........and don't be apprehensive about going in a different training direction, because one training method does not fit all dogs.........and sometimes you have to get creative and think outside the box with some of these gsd's, thats exactly what i had to do with my young male, because standard training classes and methods were not working, in fact some of the standard methods made things worse, but i was dealing with temperment issues to begin with.....

the thing is alot of trainers treat gsd's like any other breed that comes into the class, then when you have special needs issues, they have no clue, so they just keep doing what they know, and it does not work in these cases......and then you end up picking up the pieces and trying to figure out what route to take to undo the damage....

FYI, just because the trainer had gsd's does not mean they have complete knowledge on how to address all training aspects with each individual dog.......

one of the trainers i had for Sam owned a gsd and she thought that made her an expert on gsd's, in fact her own gsd had issues with certain people and still does, thats should have been the first red flag........anyway, i could tell she was a bit nervous around my dog in class. he actually nipped her one day, i tried to recall the situation in my mind after it happened, because he had never done that before............then i watched her around him and realized she was nervous, she would throw treats to him over the partition we had in class rather than call him to her, make him sit and hand him the treat........Sam is extremely aware of people's actions, very sensative to things, and he REALLY picks up on fear and nervousness.................this trainer, was completely out of line....if she could not intereact with my dog confidently, she should have totally ignored him..............grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with debbie^^ (as well as others).

The DA dog you described, I agree with codmaster. While there are other methods to use, at this point, if he's still doing what he's doing, then the method they are using isn't working and it needs to be addressed in a different manner.

The class I took Masi to, (which was koehler) since it was a beginner, there were mostly young dogs/puppies..some da dogs, we did what your trainer was doing. We walked the room EVERY week for atleast 45 minutes on six foot leash, with the dog having ALL the leash, if anyone got snarly or whatever, we changed directions, the last 15 minutes of class was working on 'something',,as in 'sit', down whatever..

While in the beginning most new people were having coronaries (mostly cause of the big bad gsd I had! LOL), by the 3rd week, practically every dog/puppy in that room was heeling pretty darn well and ignoring other dogs

As for your class itself,,again, I would continue to attend, you paid for it , go with it.
IF anything doesn't seem or feel right regarding Godric, don't do it, simple as that. My trainer was VERY comfortable with someone saying, "I don't want to do that",,her feeling was, it's YOUR dog, YOU live with it, if you dont want to do something, don't. 

Like debbie said, go with your gut


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

the most important thing i learned in the classes i went to is if your not comfortable with whats going on in class, your dog will pick up on it and you will get no where....you need to be comfortable with the atmosphere meaning others in the class as well as the trainer and methods. there are always going to be those people in class that have dogs who are out of control, giving bad signals to other dogs in class etc, great if the trainer is on top of things and addresses it, but if there are to many in the class alot of things go un-noticed unless you bring it to the trainers attention, and even at that others still don't get it............you need a place where you can successfully interact with your dog without bad feelings and frustration........if you don't want to do something in class, tell the trainer, you will just go into your ownb space where you can work alone with your dog, and if they don't go along with your wishes i wouldn't continue......


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That dog with DA could have been seeing the correction as coming from what she was reacting to, so it would just create more frustration and reactivity. I like the Control Unleashed technique of "Look at That" (LAT) giving the dog a treat when they look at the dog they are reacting to and then bring focus back to the handler, the handler will reward them. 
They then see the other dog(or what they are reacting to) as no big deal and something good comes of it vs a correction. I
t takes time, but training behaviors out of a dog usually does. But it does work, too!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would think if a certain tecnique was used and it wasn't working it would be a given to move onto something else rather than to further frustrate the dog......this is what i mean by trainers who only see one way............yanking a prong collar doesn't work if the dogs not gettin it, and will provoke further bad behaviors...........doing this over and over again is promoting further behavior issues.....


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, we went to another class tonight and all was well, so that's good.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounds good !


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Glad to hear that! 

I know at our facility it's organized chaos for the first 2 weeks of a new class and quite stressful for the handlers, dogs, and the instructors.. after the 2 week mark, it settles down tremendously and everyone is in sync with their dogs and the handlers have a better understanding of what they need to do and their handling skills are much better..


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## Jasp (Jul 19, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> That dog with DA could have been seeing the correction as coming from what she was reacting to, so it would just create more frustration and reactivity. I like the Control Unleashed technique of "Look at That" (LAT) giving the dog a treat when they look at the dog they are reacting to and then bring focus back to the handler, the handler will reward them.
> They then see the other dog(or what they are reacting to) as no big deal and something good comes of it vs a correction. I
> t takes time, but training behaviors out of a dog usually does. But it does work, too!


Wouldn't that just be rewarding the bad behavior. The dog will learn every time he reacts he will get a treat and then it will be like clock work. Right? I've been wanting to use this method vs. leash corrections but I feel like I'm rewarding his bad behavior.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm guessing that it's kinda like trying to teach focus? You're rewarding them for looking at you and diverting their attention, and eventually working up to them scarcely looking at the distraction at all... I think?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

With LAT you have to be very fast with your click. As soon as your dog looks at the other dog, click. If your dog is reacting (barking, lunging, pulling), you are too late with the click. It works best if you can spot the other dogs before your dog does.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

So we had training again today. Though I haven't liked her methods with other dogs, she's been okay with Godric because he's a puppy. I just figured that after today, there are only two classes left, and then I'll find someone else.

Well, we got there, and Godric was so excited about the other dogs, he was barking and wanted to play. DUH, he's a puppy under three months old. He was like that when we visited the schutzhund club on Saturday, but after about 15-20 mins of walking around and exploring, he mellowed out.

So my husband started walking Godric around, and trying to get his attention, and redirect him. He'd let the puppy look, and when Godric turned away from the other dogs and looked at my husband or came when he called, or followed him well on the leash, he'd give him treats. When Godric got too focused or wouldn't come, he'd go a different direction, to keep him focused on where they were going instead.

The trainer said something about us needing to really watch him because of dog aggression, and then said we don't want to get rid of the drive because we're doing schutzhund, but then said some stuff that contradicted other stuff she said. She said he needs to be socialized with other dogs, and we know that (which was the main reason to bring him to basic puppy training in the first place, but it turns out that he's the only puppy there), and because he hasn't had all of his shots, we've been taking him around safe dogs, like our dogs, my mom's dogs, and my MIL's dogs. She said _something_ like, don't let him play with other dogs, because he needs to learn that dogs aren't for playing with, they're only occasionally for play, when we say so with a specific dog, and to keep him away from other dogs, because if we let him around them but he can't play, he'll get frustrated and it'll become aggression. 

Then she said not to take him to the dog park, and I understand the many reasons for that, except the one she said this time was so that he won't get dominated, or have another dog snap at him for him trying to play, then she said next week she'll bring one of her dogs with her, to work with Godric because he can play, but when he's had enough, he'll snap and put the puppy in his place...? It made no sense to me at all.

Some of the above that she said was before and some was after the incident I'm about to tell you about. I can't be sure of everything she said exactly, because after this, I had decided "Screw this lady and whatever she says, she sucks and we're done."


So, my husband was walking with Godric, getting him used to seeing the other dogs, and being redirected, and trying to get his focus and whatnot, and walking him on the leash, a little far away, and slowly moving closer. Godric hasn't had his third set of shots yet, so we haven't had much opportunity to work on focus with dogs that aren't our own nearby, so obviously, Godric required a lot of work. 


The trainer said, "Let's put him on the long line," and brought us a 20' or whatever leash. Okay. But while she had him, she said, "Here, let me show you something," and my stomach knotted. All I heard in my head was you guys saying* "Never give up the leash to a trainer you don't fully trust,"* and_ here we were, giving up the leash._  

I thought, "Well, she's been okay with him so far, he IS only a puppy, it'll be fine."

Famous last words.

SHE DID THE SAME LEASH CORRECTION TO GODRIC THAT SHE DID TO DEXTER, my MIL's dog! The same thing that prompted me to start this thread in the first place, except she did it on a long line. She let out the line, let him jog in the direction of the other dogs, then jerked him backwards. He was flung over backwards by his neck, hit the dirt, and he cried. 

My eyes got huge, and my husband and I looked at eachother, and I said, "NO." I don't know if she heard me or saw my face, but after that she held onto the leash, but just let him run out to the end of the line where he'd end up stopping himself, and then she'd call him back. I should have immediately taken the leash from her and told her off and left. I just went stock still, and stared. Had she done it again, I would have, but she didn't. But I'm a bad mom for allowing it at all.

We took back the leash and kept teaching him the way _we'd_ been teaching him. I didn't say anything to her, and I'm mad that I didn't, but money or no money, I won't be going back. I started looking around, and every single person there was jerking on their dogs no matter what they were teaching them, because she'd taught them to teach the dogs that way. No f*cking thank you.

She said that it would take forever to teach him the way we were doing it. Well, I'M NOT IN A HURRY. I'm going to have the dog forever, and he's a PUPPY, I don't need him being jerked off of his feet by his neck to "teach" him anything. How about we work on laying a good foundation instead?! I hardly know anything about formal training, but even I know that you have to work on focus and slowly integrate distractions first.

ARRRRGGGHHH!!!

I'm so angry right now, with her and with myself for not speaking up.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

did you go observe this trainer before you went to class? it might have iliminated you wasting time and money....and also being upset and frustrated, which the dogs pick up on and it just makes matters worse................

there are more bad trainers than good trainers nowdays, it really takes alot of time and effort to find a good one..........and as you have figured out, its a waste of time to go to a trainer/class that you are not comfortable with......


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I dont think I'd trust her with my puppy again either..Frankly, I'd call her up and reem her a new one or write her a letter. 

This is a PUPPY who has the attention span of a gnat, you were right, don't go back.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I hardly know anything about formal training, but even I know that you have to work on focus and slowly integrate distractions first.


That is true.. but there are other ways of teaching it in highly distracting environments.. that aren't gonna smash the dogs drive or ruin him for life.. nothing wrong with a leash pop to get the dog focused back on you, if it's followed up with praise and reward..

What I see A LOT in the classes I work.. Is that most people don't have a relationship with their dog.. They might think they do.. The humans are totally blown off by the dogs, because of the way they interact and the habits they've taught. Biggest, biggest fault is human emotions and the fear of correcting behaviors even at a young age..

I'm not gonna say this trainer is wrong or bad as I've not seen them and maybe she could have gaged her first pop better..

I'm probably the most movitatived trainer there is, but I also know that corrections are part of the process, there are behaviors that you need to up the antie on, that redirection isn't gonna work..


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When dealing with a dog or puppy that has had little to no training, I tell people to think of it this way ...

Image you have just arrived at the airport in Paris. You are walking along, looking for the baggage claim when an person walks next to you says something to you in French.

You don't KNOW French so you just look away and keep walking. The person now blocks your path and says the same thing - only with more force.

Again, you look away (don't want to incite conflict) and try to step around them.

You are then grabbed, handcuffs are slapped on you and you are dragged off to jail!

Image how you would feel. *You had NO IDEA what they wanted and you are being punished for it!!!*

A dog goes through the same process when you tell them SIT and they don't because you never *TAUGHT* them what Sit means.

I agree with everyone else - I would not go back to that trainer nor would I join that club.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Maybe after the second encounter, the person could have done something differently? Oh like, look the person in the eyes, because it got there attention/acknowledgement and that's all they really wanted.. And maybe that person would have gotten rewarded then, instead of ending up in hand cuffs???


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> When dealing with a dog or puppy that has had little to no training, I tell people to think of it this way ...
> 
> Image you have just arrived at the airport in Paris. You are walking along, looking for the baggage claim when an person walks next to you says something to you in French.
> 
> ...


 
Good analogy. No, definitely not joining their club. We visited another club this weekend, and the people there seemed cool.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Sounds like this has already been resolved but I will just add a few remarks. First, while I agree with Leesa about corrections and I know you can train a dog using them from the get go with very good results and a happy dog, you don't start that kind of work with a three month old puppy. Not saying Leesa says you do BTW. Also, you don't train dogs with compulsion by punishing them with corrections. Keeping the dog's attention is done with an attraction. When I use compulsion, I am the attraction. That means I make myself fun to look at and I make it enjoyable for the dog to look at me by using praise and enthusiasm. The correction is used more as a little reminder than to punish the dog for looking away. Corrections should never be about punishment. Not in my opinion. If I am thinking about doing that, it is time to put the dog away because I am not in the right mood for training. 

I have seen the" yank 'em till they look trainers" and what they are doing is absolutely not correct. They are the reason so many people are against training that involves corrections and praise vs food and toys. People who see compulsion done right are never upset by it.
Puppies that age do not have the maturity to deal with that kind of handling and even with corrections done as I described above. It simply does not compute for a pup that age. 

As for socializing puppies with other dogs at parks or wherever. I am not a believer in this at all. The majority of my training clients have dog aggression issues that started during these ridiculous attempts at dog socialization. GSDs for the most part anyway, are not dog park types. I usually avoid park situations all together , unless it is earlier than 7 am and I can avoid all the people with the "friendly dogs" who are allowed to charge mine. I personally, am NOT friendly , especially when that happens. Not the best thing for a puppy's confidence and if he gets bit, well now you need a trainer to help you with that dog aggression issue that will become immediately apparent. The benefit of placing pups in these situations rarely outweigh the negatives in my experience. I advise all my puppy clients to avoid parks and trainers who want to do that stuff. I have just heard too many disaster stories to advise otherwise. I guess I should be grateful people do these things.. It is job security for me because most of my training clients come to me for aggression problems. That and Petsmart.....gotta love those people and their ability to bring out tons of aggression in certain breeds of dogs. 

You have learned the number one lesson. Protect your puppy. Don't be thinking everyone at the SchH club is the one to be listening to either. Lots of unskilled people congregate at SchH clubs and some of them are nice/cool. Watch the people train before you follow any advise. If you observe for a while, you will get an idea of who has the best relationship with their dog and how they have accomplished it. Usually, they are the ones you can hear talking to their dogs and praising them and the dog looks just as happy about it as they do. Those people are usually the ones to hit up for advice. Why? Because dog training is much more about people than it is about dogs, believe it or not. The thing I have changed the most in the years I have been training dogs is myself. Ninety percent of the work I do with training clients is working on their skills and teaching them how to relate to their dog. It is the same when I train people to be the helper in SchH. The dogs are the easy part. They learn really fast. The people are the ones who have all the learning to do and that will be the case with you as well. The most successful trainers realize just how much THEY have to do with how their dog behaves or performs. Try to find someone who can teach you that part, because it has the most value. Good luck.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Sounds like this has already been resolved but I will just add a few remarks. First, while I agree with Leesa about corrections and I know you can train a dog using them from the get go with very good results and a happy dog, you don't start that kind of work with a three month old puppy. Not saying Leesa says you do BTW. *Also, you don't train dogs with compulsion by punishing them with corrections. Keeping the dog's attention is done with an attraction. When I use compulsion, I am the attraction. That means I make myself fun to look at and I make it enjoyable for the dog to look at me by using praise and enthusiasm. The correction is used more as a little reminder than to punish the dog for looking away. Corrections should never be about punishment.* Not in my opinion. If I am thinking about doing that, it is time to put the dog away because I am not in the right mood for training.


Thank you Anne!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Watch the people train before you follow any advise.



I just want to say that after a recent experience this struck a particular point with me. So many people out there are "Master Trainers" and if all you do is listen to the war stories it becomes easy to believe it. A person can talk knowledgeably about a subject without having any real experience. Watch them handle their dog. Sometimes the picture doesn't match the story. There are lots of people out there who have been working with dogs for a very long time. That doesn't mean that they've been doing it well. And there are plenty of times that what they tell you isn't actually what they do. Sort of like parents Do as I say...not as I do. I've seen gruff men makes bigger deals over their dogs than smiley happy women. I've seen people who claim to be positive trainers hit the dog in the head with their E-collar remote. (And no, I didn't understand it then...I don't understand it now.)

Get out there and watch. Like what you see? Ask how they did it. That's how you really learn. Picking pieces that you like from different people.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think Ann's two cents sums it up perfectly, and i totally agree.......

gsd's really aren't the dog park type, fine if everyone else at these parks had a clue, but its not a perfect world.......

what i hate most is these classes with free for all dog interaction, or doggie playtime............i had several bad experiences with that........i have always had very bad vibes letting my pups get involved with this..........fine one on one puppy play but not a whole mixed group of dogs, thats just plain wrong, and doesn't do one darn thing but put a young pup on the defensive..........these trainers who believe in just putting the pups in and letting them work it out is ridiculous........it doesn't do anything but set the stage for future aggression as Ann said..........

we as handlers need to pass a good message to our dogs, protect them, and keep them out of bad inviroments.......keeping things positive for ourselves and the dogs......

with a young pup your goal is to make yourself the center of their world, the fun person, the respected person, the leader.........

as i said, there are not alot of trainers out there that have a true understanding of the gsd and how to handle them, both in training and other behavior issues........i would definitely be Very careful and selective as to who was training me and my dog....the wrong approach can certainly ruin a good pup in no time...........


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i see Ann (Vandal) is near you Blackviolet, maybe she could be of some help with your pup........


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't think dogs are so easily ruined


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Vandal said:


> If you observe for a while, you will get an idea of who has the best relationship with their dog and how they have accomplished it. Usually, they are the ones you can hear talking to their dogs and praising them and the dog looks just as happy about it as they do. Those people are usually the ones to hit up for advice.


I find this to be true. The best trainers I see are usually the most vocal ones. That's also one of the things I hear a lot as I learn about helper work. The guys are always saying to me: "Talk to dog. Talk to the dog."


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Debbie, 
I believe she already found a club to train with that she likes. If SchH is the goal, that is probably the place to be.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

BlackPuppy said:


> I've had dogs do this. I do not make corrections for growling. My thinking is a growl is a warning. Not heeding the warning, COULD lead to a bite. If you extinguish the growl, you don't have any warning that a bite might come.
> 
> When a dog growls because it thinks I'm too close to its food, first I go to the refridgerator and find something in there that the dogs likes better than what's currently in the bowl. Then I approach the dog with it. The dog see's better food and abandons the bowl. When the dog is eating the new better food, I pick up the bowl. When the dog is finished eating the new better food, I start hand feeding what is in the bowl to the dog. I then do the hand feeding for a couple of days to reinforce that good stuff comes from me.
> 
> This works when a dog is growling because it had a yummy bone. I make a switch, then the dog gets the bone back.


My husband and I used trading for drop it too. Really helps when the little guy is eating something he shouldn't be.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

JKlasky said:


> There are lots of people out there who have been working with dogs for a very long time. That doesn't mean that they've been doing it well. And there are plenty of times that what they tell you isn't actually what they do.


Some "master trainers" have 25 years of experience, and some have 1 year of experience repeated 25 times.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i disagree.......... some young pups can be seriously effected by bad handling, both by an owner, and trainer, and negative interactions with other dogs...........

i also think the best trainers are the most vocal., and the best trainers are also the most honest, tell it like it is, letting the owner know exactly what the need to do to become a good handler. alot of trainers don't do this in fear of loosing a customer because people don't like to hear the honest truth........

thats good the OP has found a good club, if it doesn't work at least the are more options........


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You are entitled to your opinion. I still don't think dogs are easily ruined or that people try to do that. They can have negetive experiences and recover from them


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

solid dogs can recover from negative situations................less confident dogs, or worse, don't recover well unless the owner can recognize things and find the right solution, even at that there can be lasting issues.........and not recognizing bad training effects will result in definite lasting issues...........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what debbie said ^^^, if you have a pretty solid dog from the beginning, the chance for them to 'blow' off those negative experiences are much better..if you have weak nerves to begin with, negative experiences, even one, can have a lasting effect.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

A GSD "should" do what Holland says: be able to face adversity and bounce back from negative experience. But that does not excuse the bad training ... and certainly not on a puppy. And not every GSD is as solid as he/she should be. It's just the way things are ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Completely agree with above. Onyx has issues with women because of her first training experience as a young pup. And the female vets re-enforced it when she was spayed.

Her nerves aren't the stable-est, and had she had only positive experiences during the important imprinting stage she may not be so reactive to women now. 

There is absolutely NO reason to use compulsion on a puppy...and yanking the leash at that age is.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jason your right,,a correct gsd should be able to face adversity and bounce back, unfortunately there are to many that don't and your also right, that is no excuse for bad training...


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

It was a 1 1/2 year old dog that was corrected not a puppy. Think that part of the problem might be that it would be easier to start with a puppy rather than waiting till 1 1/2- I love the Sheila Booth book but I am not Sheila Booth I agree with what has already been said about compulsion. To me compulsion depending upon how it is used does not have to mean bad training


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I also don't think that an obedience class can be judged on the internet. Its probably hypocritical of me to say this but I don't think you have to leave somewhere if you don't agree totally with someones training methods As was said in another post you can pick and choose what you want to use and you can learn from watching other people.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland said:


> It was a 1 1/2 year old dog that was corrected not a puppy. Think that part of the problem might be that it would be easier to start with a puppy rather than waiting till 1 1/2- I love the Sheila Booth book but I am not Sheila Booth I agree with what has already been said about compulsion. To me compulsion depending upon how it is used does not have to mean bad training





black violet said:


> SHE DID THE SAME LEASH CORRECTION TO GODRIC THAT SHE DID TO DEXTER, my MIL's dog! The same thing that prompted me to start this thread in the first place, except she did it on a long line. She let out the line, let him jog in the direction of the other dogs, then jerked him backwards. He was flung over backwards by his neck, hit the dirt, and he cried.


You may have missed this Holland. 
The pup got a yank too~ page 9 post #89


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I also don't think that an obedience class can be judged on the internet. Its probably hypocritical of me to say this but I don't think you have to leave somewhere if you don't agree totally with someones training methods As was said in another post you can pick and choose what you want to use and you can learn from watching other people.


Exactly!

I know at our facility when folks are uncomfortable with something, then we will try to work with them using another technique or change the exercise completely for them..

I could only imagine what some on here would say about the facility I work at!!


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## Valkyrierider (Jul 21, 2010)

We just got out two 20 month old girls back from Assertive k-9 in Corona. I never once seen them jerk hard on the leash. They use a Gentle Leader head collar, positive reinforcement and patience. So you may not have instant obedience, but you wont have a dog afraid of you either. Find a trainer that you are comfortable with and you will have better results. Even if their methods work, the dog senses you don't like it and will lead off that energy.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree that just because a class isn't exactly what you want it is cause to leave, on the other hand when things are let go and not addressed by a trainer in classes this is constant frustration for people who are trying to do their own thing, and other people are not aware or don.t care what their dog is doing, and it can be way to distracting especially for people that don't have the skills or knowledge to work around it........distractions are fine to some degree, but when you got joe blow over here and his border collie is making constant eye contact and suzy Q over here thats dog keeps getting away from her, etc, etc.........

i myself look for more controlled classes, where the trainer is constantly on top of everyone and their dog, constantly reminding people of things etc.........


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing to consider is that every person has a certain sensitivity concerning their dog and what they can emotionally deal with as far as corrections go. For people new to dog training, it can be overwhelming trying to get things right. So, if the method is disturbing for them, in my opinion, it's much harder to learn. Again, this is much more about people than most want to accept. The people have to be capable of applying the things the trainer is teaching and the dogs know when their owner is upset. You can't minimize the emotions of the handler, because they matter when it comes to how well the dog will learn and perform. I have no idea how the trainer in question is doing things, other than what is said here, but I can tell from what the OP said, that what it is, disturbs her. If you are angry with yourself after training, then something didn't go right. Even if someone else saw the same thing and was not bothered by it, the point remains that the OP was. Those are her feelings on the matter, so, thinking someone should just go back and work in an environment that created that feeling, is not really the best advise if you ask me. 
Seems like she feels better at the SchH club, so, that is probably the better place to be.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Wow! YES - enjoying these posts Anne. 

You take the dog where they are, and the person where they are...that's what I always thinks makes me happy in a class.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes Anne always does know best


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i DO agree with Anne, if a person has a bad feeling after a few classes, i would say go with your gut, because chances are thats the way the trainer runs the class, and will probably not change things for one person, and maybe people in general don't pick up on things or don't know any better, but dealing with this breed we all want the right instruction/direction is extremely important training these dogs........people with goldens, labs, or general easy mannered dogs can probably sail through any training clas, bad instruction or not, but we are dealing with a very dominant breed, a breed that needs more than the normal dog.

one thing i have learned about training, is to go with my gut......and if the trainer or inviroment is negative, you get no where good as i said a few posts ago..........

i had an experience with a trainer/class and kept going because i was trying to keep an open mind................even though i was having bad feeling about the trainer/class etc............the place started to look like a circus, you name it it was happening....my dog ended up with some issues because of it, because he was fearish unsure anyway.............i ended up finally taking him out of the class and had to back way up to the beginning and try to salvage all the negatives he gained from class...........alot of work, but finally got to a better place.......morral of the story....Never, Never stay in a place that you have bad feelings about...........


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

just wanted to add, it was my fault for staying in a class having bad feelings about it, it sure didn't help my dog one bit.grrrrrrrrrrrrr, but you learn from your mistakes and move on..............................and you do learn something from each and every dog and the training process with them...........


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Debbie, it happened to me to. Over the years through painful experiences I became a trainer snob. I'm not proud of it, but I am very picky now and will question any trainer even with the highest credentials if I am not comfortable with something. I also leaned to better trust my own ability to train and understand my dog. 

My dog trusts me, and no way in the world I am going to betray that trust just to flatter someone's ego. GSDs killed a people pleaser in me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

debbie knows, I been there done that, still blame myself when I clearly should have known better and gone with my gut earlier than I did


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> .......... I'm not proud of it, but I am very picky now and *will question any trainer even with the highest credentials if I am not comfortable with something. I also leaned to better trust my own ability to train and understand my dog. ..................*


Absolutely great advice! 

I just dropped a trainer thatwe have been using in private and classes training - turns out that she wasn't really helping me get ahead with our dog and that she actually was a little bit leery of our dog. He can be a handful sometimes and can be a real handful to handle.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks, you guys. At first, I had told my husband that we can still go to the classes, but I will never give up the leash again, and if she asks for it, I'm going to tell her how I feel. I just didn't want him to be irritated that I pushed to take him to the training, and wasted money, wanting to walk out again. He said if I didn't trust the trainer enough to give her the leash, then why go at all? He said it was just setting us up for an awkward situation, maybe an argument during training, and to just forget it. The small things we HAVE learned in class don't make up for it. I agreed, and now I'm just set on not going back. 

My MIL is trying to convince my husband to keep going to classes, but I tell him your input, haha.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Oksana, that is absolutely right on! a perfect summary of how alot of us feel after trial and error with training and trainers..........with what i have to pick from around this area for trainers and classes, i would rather do my own thing, as you said at least you can trust yourself, and gain the trust of your dog, by choosing the situations and types of training more sucessfully.......

Blackviolet, you are getting alot of good advice, and since you had a bad feeling about the trainer in the first place, you can make a good choice listening to others......and listening to your own better senses.........

debbie


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think this is why SchH clubs are a great venue for training, you aren't forced to follow any one person's methods and others in the club will call you out if you are using the wrong tools in the wrong way or unfairly working with your dog. Of course, not all clubs are this way, but when you get many experienced people together observing training, it is a safer place for the newbies to begin.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Schutzhund clubs are no different than training any other place. Its not like schutzhund is perfect its not. Schutzhund can be great when you are part of the club and feel like you belong when you don't feel that way its not so great. And that doesn't always have anything to do with your training methods ...sometimes its just following the crowd which in some ways is very similar to this board. There are great trainers and places to train outside of schutzhund and I am glad I have found those places.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Didn't say SchH was perfect, but at least you are around like minded individuals with the same breed, who share the same goals for the most part. Of course there are exceptions, just like anywhere...

I've found in my area, I'd much rather train with a SchH club than the local obedience clubs or private trainers. And I've been to most all of them.
Had I not become involved in SchH I wouldn't have found the trainer I am working with now. 
I'm glad that you found your place to train Holland!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would choose SchH clubs over everyday general training places, especially with this breed..............although, i would go observe the club a while before making a decision to join, because they are not all alike, thats for sure.......


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