# What would be considered a "select" puppy?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Helping a friend do some research for a new German Shepherd puppy. Trying not to make a breeder recommendation, because I don't want to lose a friend if it doesn't work out.
However, I am taking the time to find a list of local breeders.

Amongst my search, I read the term "select" puppy for sale.

These pups for sale are generally 10-14 weeks.

What would make a puppy "select"?
And how would a breeder know something was different about that pup, over the rest of the litter?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That term is commonly used by some big-name commercial breeders to make the buyer believe that the inflated price they are asking for is somehow justified.
It is the selling of prestige. I'm sure they are nice puppies, but probably not any different from other pups from good breeders that just sell "normal" puppies.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Depends....is this a show lines breeder? The top-rated conformation dogs at the GSDCA National Specialty are awarded the title "select", is it a puppy from that type of lines?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> That term is commonly used by some big-name commercial breeders to make the buyer believe that the inflated price they are asking for is somehow justified.
> It is the selling of prestige. I'm sure they are nice puppies, but probably not any different from other pups from good breeders that just sell "normal" puppies.


This exactly. Some breeders have found that they can get people to pay outrageous amounts if they use a tiered pricing system. 

However, due to the genetic uniformity in a litter of puppies (especially show line puppies) it's ludicrous to say that one puppy in a litter is worth thousands more than his/her littermate. The only time I believe in tiered pricing is if one or two pups in a litter has a fault that disqualifies him/her from show, breeding, or competition but still allows him/her to be a great pet such as an overbite, damaged ear, or retained testicle.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I'm sure they are nice puppies, but probably not any different from other pups from good breeders that just sell "normal" puppies.


Not always...There was a large breeder with a horrid parvo problem several years ago that the breeder was not working on effectively. (From what I read, he actually spent a lot of money to try & eliminate the problem but steadfastly refused to do what REALLY needed doing). There are some renowned breeders who all too often deliver unsound, sickly, weak nerved pups. Sadly, they often neither honor the warranty nor work with the owners when problems arise.

Puppy buyers should look beyond what the breeder tells 'em & not be unduly impressed with testimonials featured on the breeder's site. That information is limited & most likely biased. There's nothing wrong with breeders publishing comments from their buyers, but look further.

Whether large or small, commercial or hobbyist, show lines, working lines or companion lines, there are breeders that run the gamut from excellent to gawdawful, knowledgeable to ignorant, kind to cruel.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> Depends....is this a show lines breeder? The top-rated conformation dogs at the GSDCA National Specialty are awarded the title "select", is it a puppy from that type of lines?


Yes, the breeder we spoke to, made it very clear that both parents were recent show line winners, and winners of certain Seiger titles.
They were considered western German Show lines. 
Pretty pups. Both parents were black and red.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

I always giggle when I see the price tiers... Ultra Select Puppy with Cheese :wild:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Is your friend planning to enter dog shows, or does he just want a great house pet and companion?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Helping a friend do some research for a new German Shepherd puppy. Trying not to make a breeder recommendation, because I don't want to lose a friend if it doesn't work out.
> However, I am taking the time to find a list of local breeders.
> 
> Amongst my search, I read the term "select" puppy for sale.
> ...


 
My guess would be that the most likely big difference = price!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BR870 said:


> I always giggle when I see the price tiers... Ultra Select Puppy with Cheese :wild:


 
What about the "Super Select Excellent Choice" puppy?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I've seen the terms used as well. However, there are some breeders who (on their website) make it clear which pup is considered which price tier. At least at that point I can make an educated choice. I can say, well that pup is worth X amount to me. May not be to anybody else....

What gets my goat is when it isn't clear which puppy is which price. You just _know _that what ever pup you choose or is chosen for you is going to be the higher end pup. Argh.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

codmaster said:


> What about the "Super Select Excellent Choice" puppy?


No the best ones are the "Value Litter". The whole page is like "Ultra Mega Select", "Uber Premium Elite Select" and then there is "Value Litter". 

Come on...


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Remember that asking price & selling price aren't necessarily the same. IF I have a Diamond Jubilee Platinum Uber Select pup for $7000, mebbe after talking to you & being impressed with what a wonderful home you'd give my beloved pup, I can't help but lower my price to a crushingly low $4500 b/c it means so much to see my pups go to a home like yours. 

I've often wondered how often those pups are actually sold at the advertised price. They can easily knock off a thou (or 2 or 3) & still be double the market price while giving the buyers a warm fuzzy on what a super great deal they got on their oh so special pup.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I know of a couple of SL breeders that use those pricing tiers and these two imparticular are not what I consider to be reputable breeders. Feel free to PM the breeder your friend is considering and I will confirm if it's one of these. I would not send a friend (or enemy) to either of them.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The term "Select" means that soon someone with more $$ than brain cells will come along and pay $$ for a pup that no one else wants


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I've always thought that puppies were priced by litters. One litter could be more expensive based on its parents? But I think the entire litter should be the same price.

I would avoid places that use "select" puppies, unless they intended to say select puppies that match your life style.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I thought they were priced by parents too. BUT:

I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but this is a genuine question. If litters are all genetically "uniform", then why do they all look and act differently? And say you ARE looking to win Westminster with _the _best looking dog you can. Surely some pups are just going to be better looking than others, even out of the same litter? Otherwise, every pup (barring obvious health or physical defect) would be worthy of being bred, right? 

So maybe some _are_ better than others?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RocketDog said:


> I thought they were priced by parents too. BUT:
> 
> I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but this is a genuine question. If litters are all genetically "uniform", then why do they all look and act differently? And say you ARE looking to win Westminster with _the _best looking dog you can. Surely some pups are just going to be better looking than others, even out of the same litter? Otherwise, every pup (barring obvious health or physical defect) would be worthy of being bred, right?
> 
> So maybe some _are_ better than others?


Litters are not genetically uniform, any more than pairs of siblings are uniform. I am not exactly like my brother. If they were completely uniform they would be identical twins of each other. Many breeders do _strive_ for more uniformity in their litters, however. What amuses me is when breeders brag about their uniformity of type on one page, and on another page charge hugely different prices for different pups in the same litter.

We advise people all the time that within the same litter some will be more suitable for work, some for show, some for family pets, etc. Some will have more energy and drive, some will be calmer and quieter. Some will be black, some will be black and tan. Etc.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Emoore said:


> This exactly. Some breeders have found that they can get people to pay outrageous amounts if they use a tiered pricing system.
> 
> *However, due to the genetic uniformity in a litter of puppies (especially show line puppies) it's ludicrous to say that one puppy in a litter is worth thousands more than his/her littermate.* The only time I believe in tiered pricing is if one or two pups in a litter has a fault that disqualifies him/her from show, breeding, or competition but still allows him/her to be a great pet such as an overbite, damaged ear, or retained testicle.



I'm not trying to be rude.  I just thought you said.....? So this is where my question originated.

So---IF the breeder is a showline breeder, for example, and his trained eye (ahem, :eyeroll) sees ONE puppy that is absolutely PERFECT in EVERY way, wouldn't that be termed "select"?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

OK I see what you're saying. We need to disambiguate the term "uniform." Many breeders brag about their litters' "genetic uniformity" which means that they are all genetically very SIMILAR. However TRUE genetic uniformity would mean that they were all exactly the same at the DNA level, which we know is not true or else they'd all be identical twins of each other, even all being the same gender. 

Unless one pup has a genetic defect or fault, a litter should be quite *similar*. I am not identical to my brother, but we are much more similar than two strangers off the street. This is even more pronounced in purebred show dogs where (in general) the litter's parents are more closely related than a pair of human parents tend to be. 

I don't pretend to know very much about show line pups, but from speaking with show line breeders, they tell me you can't really look at a litter of 7- or 8- week old puppies running around and point out the one that will be the next ROM Ch. or Sieger, any more than a breeder can look at a bunch of foals in a pasture and tell which one will be the next Derby winner.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> I'm not trying to be rude.  I just thought you said.....? So this is where my question originated.
> 
> So---IF the breeder is a showline breeder, for example, and his trained eye (ahem, :eyeroll) sees ONE puppy that is absolutely PERFECT in EVERY way, wouldn't that be termed "select"?


The problem is that the pup with perfect conformation and temperament at 8 weeks is not necessarily going to be the one that has it at 2 years.

An honest breeder will tell you that there are no guarantees. Out of a litter, there absolutely will be differences, but for a breeder to be able to tell at 8 weeks that "THIS ONE! THIS ONE RIGHT HERE IS GONNA BE A VA1 RATED CHAMPION!!!!1!1 Pay me more now..." is a scam


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Note that 'select' in the tier pricings are the 'cheap' dogs. They go up from there to 'exceptional', 'ultimate', 'ultimate supreme' AND they have puppies priced at around 3 weeks of age if not earlier!!! Buyer beware! These breeders are in it for the money period.

I like my showlines but there are some shady breeders out there. Puppy mills with a paint job (nice website).


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree with all of the above. I just wanted it explained more clearly.  I too agree that the only way you'll know which one is the best looking one is to see the dogs at 2. 

As for temperament, well, we can never know due to the effects of environment, can we? 

*Meeting and visiting* your breeder and their dogs, and *liking* all of it, is the best way to go if choosing to buy from a breeder.

Then all of the pups will be "select", LOL


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## troy_mia (May 26, 2011)

I was looking to get a showline puppy. I found a breeder who has a litter from Sire VA5 in 2011. I believe just because the Sire is VA5 means puppies are going to be expensive. But the puppy liked out of the entire litter turned out to be the pick of the litter. I never said to the breeder my preferred puppy until he disclosed pricing of the all puppies. And he is 1k more than lowest priced in the litter. 










VS









For experts here; do you see any significant difference in the above puppies. And just curious if the 2nd puppy has a longer coat?

On the similar note; I might ask this too..... The litter size was on 9 puppies. Does that in any way affect the quality of puppies. 

Thanks.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I had a puppy for free sired by a VA1 (BSZS) dog.

I agree with marshies. All pups in the litter have the same sire and dam, so they should be the same price. I'm OK with discounts for faults, as a fault is a fault and these are evident fairly quickly (missing testicles, long coat, etc). Yes there is variation in looks and temperament but there is variation among the prospective homes. For example I've seen several of the dogs from Nikon's litter and don't think any of them are worth more or less but Nikon was the right one for me.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

A breeder *better know* which puppies have the best traits in the litter.....which includes structure, temperament and drives. And YES....you can tell much of this at an early age.
Since we (as breeders) have probably some of the lowest pricing in puppies for this general area......I cannot offer an explanation about "pier" pricing, other than...it is the breeders prerogative to do so.
I will say this though.......I have no issue with the *best* puppy from any litter being sold at a higher price......I have *paid* for such puppies in the past, and would expect to do so in the future.
ETA: There is a limit to which I would personally spend on any puppy......but much depends on the breeder, genetics and the puppy itself.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah this generally relates to show lines, and if a litter is parented by champions you can pretty much conclude that all the pups will have the ability to be champions. The one poster asked about Westminster, with enough money and time pumped into one of those dogs they would all probably have the same chance at winning that show (about 0% lol). The tiered system is truly for people with money that don't care to know enough. They want to tell their friends their pup was $xxxx and was the son of such and such champions.

Other breeders purchasing the pups are different. They can see the differences too and can pay the higher price because to them its worth it. To many pet buyers its just a status symbol.

I do believe that most breeders can tell the difference between an extremely good show prospect and an ok one while they are pups. But the best one is usually the one that's held back and not for sale.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

martemchik....*many* times yes, the best IS held back.....but not necessarily.
I have no problems with selling/placing the *best* puppy with a buyer.....IF they are going to provide a "future" for a puppy.....OR...if for some reason, I cannot keep the puppy myself. *just ask the people in our small group*.....they actually own the best pups from specific litters, because they want to have fun in particular venues....and the dogs represent us as a whole.
Marshies for example......I prefer Amaretto over Anisette (personally)....but Anisette is *drive wise* more of what my husband desired.....Thank God!...because Amaretto is *more than enough* for Marshies....

But I will agree with you too.......generally speaking.....breeders usually keep the "best" puppies for their future.....and then you have those, who only breed and keep nothing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Robin the first SV dog show I ever went to I watched Carlos evaluate a littler of puppies. It was really neat! One by one they got plopped on the table in front of him and he felt them here and there, stacked them up, pushed them this way or that and said with no hesitation "Keep this one, it's the best one..... sell this one....this one has X.....this one has Y......" It was fascinating, and those puppies were half brothers/sisters to my dog so I watched him evaluate each one before I knew hardly anything about conformation. Breeders definitely know their stuff. I had that experience with Pan as well. He was the working/SchH prospect from his litter but for the first several months he was very calm, mellow, low energy, low drive. I kept thinking I got the wrong dog but at a certain age his drive kicked in and I saw the dog they sold me!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Robin the first SV dog show I ever went to I watched Carlos evaluate a littler of puppies. It was really neat! One by one they got plopped on the table in front of him and he felt them here and there, stacked them up, pushed them this way or that and said with no hesitation "Keep this one, it's the best one..... sell this one....this one has X.....this one has Y......" It was fascinating, and those puppies were half brothers/sisters to my dog so I watched him evaluate each one before I knew hardly anything about conformation. Breeders definitely know their stuff. I had that experience with Pan as well. He was the working/SchH prospect from his litter but for the first several months he was very calm, mellow, low energy, low drive. I kept thinking I got the wrong dog but at a certain age his drive kicked in and I saw the dog they sold me!


Wish I could've seen that! That's pretty neat.

Btw, Liesje, I am EXTREMELY jealous of low drive, low energy, calm, mellow.  I wish Amaretto would give me a few months of that while I bond and acclimatize to her. 



I honestly think if you're not sure how to evaluate puppies, whether it be conformation or temperament, it's best to go to a breeder that charges the same price for the entire litter. That way, they at least don't have a financial incentive to NOT sell you the best puppy for your life style. I'm not saying all breeders with tier pricing will do this, but if they need to sell their super-premium select at $3000 and you seem ready to commit, they may bypass the puppy with a temperament more suited for your life style.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well it didn't last long! Now Pan has more energy than all my other dogs combined and has a pretty low threshold for prey drive. Great for work, training, sport....not quite as great for a house pet kind of dog, but that's not why I got him so basically he's exactly what I asked for it just took some maturity for that to come out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I had a weird experience with one of the breeders who has price tiers. I e-mailed asking about their dogs, what kind of training they do, what club they train with, etc. The response I got was them offering me a puppy for a "discount". I responded with two specific questions (could have been yes/no answers) and again received an offer for a discounted puppy. Forget it!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

OMG!...I remember that day in your pics LOL!
Do YOU remember who those puppies were/are in the pics???...betcha don't!
That was 3 yrs ago.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

That was the day the show ring had holes in it and Carlos hurt his ankle. I also remember seeing Ivan for the first time that day. I think they were Mittelwest puppies, Markus puppies? At least that's what I thought and why I was so interested. Or were they yours? Nikon is a Markus son and you had a Markus litter about the same age I remember (Luna, Logan....). I never have seen Markus in person but a few months back I saw an ad on the PDB for a litter bred 2-2 on Markus and saw another Markus son VA1 (I saw a pic on an ad and thought, "that dog HAS to be related to my Nikon" and sure enough, his half brother, albeit with a much more impressive show record! VA1 in Estonia).


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

They were our "L" litter.....yes, out of Markus.
That pic is Lamborgini (I think?)...*it looks like her*.
Mittelwest has never bred to Markus, actually....I think Julie R. (Alta Toll Haus) is the only other person that I know of that did breed to him here in the USA.
I don't remember seeing any other advertised litters...?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have a "select" puppy,,my breeder 'selected' her for me and life hasn't been the same ))) (in a good way


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

That type of *select* is the BEST kind! LOL!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

All my pups are "select" - I select where and to whom they go.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

:rofl: :thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I selected my dogs breeder, does that count?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I selected my dogs breeder, does that count?


That makes your breeder a "select" breeder, I think?:crazy:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

a 'select breeder' who got you a 'select dog" )


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> a 'select breeder' who got you a 'select dog" )


That's what I'm talking about - I think


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't mind pick puppies costing more. But from what I've seen, most pick pups either are held back or go to qualified homes that can fully develop and harness the full potential of the dog. It's fair to price a pick puppy higher than others, but just be sure you understand what the "pick" pup means to that breeder. If you want a house dog, don't go for the pick pup out of a high drive litter. "Pick" doesn't necessarily mean suited for your particular needs. Like others said, the pick pup is the pup best for you


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Doc, you gonna add this to your book? I definately think it's worth mentioning )


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

qbchottu said:


> I don't mind pick puppies costing more. But from what I've seen, most pick pups either are held back or go to qualified homes that can fully develop and harness the full potential of the dog. It's fair to price a pick puppy higher than others, but just be sure you understand what the "pick" pup means to that breeder. If you want a house dog, don't go for the pick pup out of a high drive litter. "Pick" doesn't necessarily mean suited for your particular needs. Like others said, the pick pup is the pup best for you


This is so well said! I don't mind the actual cost either, just as long as I know that puppy will fit what I'm looking for in a puppy. Also, as long as the prices are not outrageous. Some breeders I have seen with this type of tier, ask for outrageous amounts, and very few have a normal price range.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

for the breeder holding back breeding stock it does not have to be the "best" pup in the litter , but the one that shows the most improvement in an area that the breeder was trying to improve through selection to correct that area.

For example all things being equal but the breeder has dogs with flat feet and they keep showing up. Along comes a dog with perfect feet , but he may short in the croup .


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Knowledgeable people will usually agree on which dogs are 'good' vs which aren't but which is 'best' is much more subjective. This is true in the show world, too & is one reason people are conscious of who is judging & what a particular judge favors or dislikes.

When I got Brighid Ros, my last Irish Wolfhound, there were 2 bitches in the litter. The breeder chose the one she preferred & my daughter got the 2nd one. The sire's owner, who was as experienced & knowledgeable as the breeder, always preferred Brighid over her sister. My daughter disdainfully pointed out that Brighid wasn't as tall but she had by far the better butt. I never had the 'eye' the breeders had, (or that of my very young daughter *blush*) but while I preferred the sister's taller, lean & leggy look I LOVED Brighid's personality. She just had a bit more edge & attitude to her. (The breeder liked to tease that she kept the gooood puppy). 

There really is no B&W 'best'. I've known any # of puppy buyers, pros & pet people, agonize that someone else would get the pup they coveted only to be amazed that the pup they craved wasn't everyone's favorite.


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