# Quality of life



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am not asking anyone to make a decision or think for me. I need objective opinions. 
Shadow has diarrhea, again. She refuses to eat the RC kibble. She has possibly lost a bit more weight. 
Bloodwork is normal. According to the vet indicative of a much younger dog by the values.
Urine test is clear. No trace of infection or issue. Not dehydrated.
Fecal test is clear of any bacteria or parasite.
Ultrasound showed ulcers, nothing else. 
Eyes are showing normal senior lens changes.
Coat and skin are fine.
Ears look great. (I asked him how often you should clean a dog's ears. He said never if they are healthy)
Teeth are rough but no excess build up, rotting, infection. Just busted and worn down. 

She is now eating almost nothing. Plays, barks, jumps around. Mouths off the TV, begs for treats and bites of dinner, gets excited to go outside. But so thin it is heart breaking to pet her. She sleeps a lot, which is probably normal for a 12-year-old dog.
I am taking her out every few hours at least, pee pads are down although she misses them sometimes. Often. 
I don't care about the extra cleaning or the extra pee breaks. I just feel awful for her. She gets all upset when she has an accident. It cannot be comfortable. And she isn't even acting hungry anymore, which makes me feel worse.
I feel like I have tried everything. I don't want her to suffer, and starvation is a brutal way to die.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

For me it’s how happy they are. Though I wouldn’t want a happy dog to starve - but psychological is big, with physical factored in. Her behaviour sounds good other than being upset by the accidents - and that must be hard for her. Confusing, embarrassing I’m guessing? 

With Teagan at the end she was having 2-3 accidents a day. Lots of baths. I didn’t mind. But when she attacked Luc - who she loved - I knew her quality of life wasn’t good. Luc had lots of accidents but that was a senile thing and it didn’t seem to bother him. Sometimes Neb gets excited by the vacuum and pees on the floor. As if vacuuming with the other two losing their mind wasn’t enough. However, that’s not a big deal and I like to mop after I vacuum anyways. But Neb isn’t upset - I’m not sure he realises he’s done it to be honest. Being upset by the accidents is a harder call.

I wouldn’t want to watch her starve to death. Luc we did tie backsurgery for his lar par around his 15th birthday because it had progressed to the point they didn’t think he’d survive the summer heat and we couldn’t bear the thought of him suffocating. We let him go six months later. I think it was worth it. He had a good summer.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

I have no frame of reference to share thoughts on here. All my dogs' end points were very clear cut with pain and marked decline and/or trauma. Shadow is acting like herself still. I would let that be my guide for the moment. You know her best and are sensitive to her changes.


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## WVNed (4 mo ago)

As long as they enjoy being with us and us with them.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Since she is acting happy, excited to go outside, etc. It seems to me the issue is the not eating. Sleeping a lot? She isn't getting enough energy from food. Not an expert here, but it seems the big issue here is not her age or anything else. It is the ulcer and not eating. Did your vet tell you the cause of the ulcer? Is it bacterterial or not. How bad are they?

If it were me I'd give up the kibble, at least until she feels better and starts eating again and gains some weight back. Feed her chicken or hamburger and rice. Maybe add a spoon of pumpkin. Yogurt, cottage cheese. 

I googled and found these articles on feeding dogs with ulcers. Ulcers CAN heal. Did your vet give you any advice on diet for her? Is it the RC GI kibble she won't eat?



https://www.cuteness.com/article/diet-dogs-ulcers




Why The Bland Diet For a Dog With Ulcers Is A Must – Dogdorable



from Stomach Ulcers In Dogs: Symptoms, Causes, & Treatments - DogTime:
"Vets usually prescribe antacid medication to reduce stomach acid and allow the ulcer to heal. They’ll also likely prescribe dietary changes. Dogs who have stomach ulcers should stick to low-fat, bland foods so they can heal and prevent more ulcers from forming.

If there is a bacterial cause of the ulcers, then vets will prescribe antibiotics.

Some pet parents try natural treatments for ulcers, as well. They may use licorice root, aloe vera, slippery elm, echinacea, or alfalfa. Certain supplements such as L-glutamine and quercetine can also strengthen the immune system and prevent new ulcers from forming.

*You must ask your vet about these treatments before offering them to your dog."*

Is she on any medication for the ulcers?

from Stomach and Intestinal Ulcers in Dogs | PetMD

Common GI medications include:

*Sucralfate* protects the mucosa by coating the ulcer. It can also stimulate ulcer healing.
*H2 receptor antagonists* block receptors in the stomach to decrease gastric acid secretion. The most well-known H2 receptor antagonist is Pepcid (famotidine).
*Proton pump inhibitors* are generally regarded as superior to H2 receptor antagonists to prevent ulcerations. Omeprazole, pantoprazole, lansoprazole, and esomeprazole are all options in this drug family.
*Prostaglandin E analogs*, like Misoprostol (Cytotec) works by increasing mucosal protection by decreasing gastric acid secretion. Some veterinarians will use this drug to prevent ulcers in animals with chronic NSAID therapy."

I know you do everything you can for your "Punk." I hope things improve. She seems like she wants to continue on. She's just uncomfortable - tummy hurts so the kibble is very unappealing.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

As long as she's happy and bright eyed and eating snacks...


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

We go by how the dog is not being. Not eating is usually the last thing in a slow progression downward. I still remember the vet looking at Billy Bob and saying, 'he's not in there anymore'. Something had gone horribly wrong in his head and he was just a space case. But that was after months of increasingly not eating and incontinence. The dog with the arthritis in his spine could no longer stand without so much struggle he was too exhausted to walk once he finally made it up on all four. Ellie was fighting the DM right up until she could barely walk and falling all over the place. She was still eating. I dunno, you have to evaluate each dog and make a difficult decision. I'd say give her whatever Shadow will eat and vitamins. As long as she's trying, there is reason for you to try. And I think that's what we go by - if the dog is still trying, we'll try to accommodate the dog. She will let you know when she gives up. Sorry you both are going through this, it is very tough. I think some of what you are feeling is the confusion of her acting like nothing is wrong and you not being able to figure out how to help her. Is she up for surgery on the ulcers? Is that an option? Maybe a more liquid diet?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Would she eat green tripe? That's always a popular choice. Assuming that meshes well with her issues.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

It’s the worst answer, but you’ll know. My dog had osteosarcoma, it was tough.. really tough, but you’ll know.. he ate a steak and eggs breakfast the day we put him down, but it was his time.. he didn’t wanna move.. it may be days weeks months? Just keep throwing different nutrient packed foods and hope to make the last bit as comfortable as possible. That’s my amateur 2 cents


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One thing I firmly believe - assuming the owner is an experienced dog person, who realizes and accepts that there comes a time when you have to let go - THEY are the best person to make the decision to end their dog's life. 

Some of my friends thought I should have euthanized Star earlier, but they were not able to see what I saw. 

That being said, the problem seems to be the ulcers. I know they are likely the result of life long digestive issues, made worse by pain medication for her joints. Is there a fix for this? Can anything be done?


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Satin balls?


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## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

This is such a hard point in their lives, my heart goes out to you whenever I see your posts.

A vet once told me that they've had lots of people say they regret waiting too long to let their animals go. But they've never had someone say they thought they did it too soon. 

I'm sorry my point of view is a little darker than some, but I wish someone had objectively stepped in and said something with Sadie so I will share. She stopped eating, had vertigo, ulcers, arthritis and was extremely weak in her back legs. We had her appointment booked and woke up that morning happy and playful. So we cancelled it as we couldn't bear to do it when she was feeling good. We ended up rushing her to the ER vet in the middle of the night, we all regret not giving her a peaceful death sooner. 

I'm not in any way saying that it is Shadow's time but I wish I'd had someone who had gone through this to talk to at the time. You've done so much for her already, I'm sure you'll make the right decision for her when the time comes. She sounds like she's still happy and that's the most important thing!


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Just sending you both a hug. What a hard decision to have to make!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I just ask myself if I would want to live like that. 

It's tough. It's really tough. But that's how I look at it.

Hugs


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## Cat Mom Adopts German Boy (Jan 4, 2021)

Are the ulcers the reason for lack of appetite? Would treating them help?
Have you tried coconut oil? Sorry for all the questions!


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

Oh Shadow 💔 no advice or comments here. Just thinking about you two.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Ah, sorry to read this @Sabis mom. Nothing to add except that having gone thru this not too long ago I know how tough the decision is. My dog would eat but could no longer get up on her rear or front legs. It was still hard, but in hindsight we think we did her the best service. Still, hoping you get another reprieve with her! And as many have said, you should be commended for your quality of care and love for her.


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## WVNed (4 mo ago)

For me there always came a moment when I was sure it was time.
Peace be with you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis, I m not sure how to interpret your first sentence ("I am not asking anyone to make a decision or think for me. I need objective opinions"). 
I will try to be a so objective as I can: despite the tests she doesn't want to eat. If her teeth are not infected or broken, I would respect her not wanting to eat and leave it be as long as she doesn't appear to be in pain. When my grandmother had given up on life the nursing home kept giving her these nutritional shakes even though she didn't want to eat. If felt so disrespectful. It made me write my advance directive.
Sabis, you have done the impossible for Shadow. It's like what David said, "Would I like to live like that?" 
Wishing you and Shadow strength.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

"I feel like I have tried everything. I don't want her to suffer, and starvation is a brutal way to die "

I'm so very sorry, it's heart breaking, I think you have your answer.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Many animals, especially scavenger types can withstand starvation for a long time but like you said it's a rough way to go. She will have bursts of great energy I'm sure but I also recall that she is severely underweight (dipping below 50's). The body hangs on very tightly to the very last second until it drops. Starvation affects individuals differently as well. Some can handle it better than others. Eating is a basic function and if Shadow cannot eat... I'm not sure if she will be ok in the future. She might be on borrowed time. I only know about stuff like this because I have a friend that has a fairly rare form of an eating disorder called anorexia nervosa (very severe). She was very thin for years and people wondered how she survived until her heart gave out. She was miraculously revived and recovering. I'm sorry if this is too graphic or insensitive concerning Shadow.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I just put one of my pet mice down. She was old. Had several tumors that grew rapidly. She was still eating but one was about to open up. I doubted for a few days but then I saw her sitting in a corner, panting. It didn't make sense to me to wait for a very painful death. She could have lived another week but as far as i know animals don't have sense of time. 
Thinking about you two.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thank you all. I have some thinking to do. 
Just to clear a few things up. She is mostly still bouncy and spunky. Her normal sassy pants self. She has been house trained since 5-6 weeks old, she does not have accidents in the house. This is a new thing that clearly upsets her in spite of my efforts to act normal. She is a very private dog when it comes to her toilet habits, thank Sabi for that. She always went to the furthest area of the yard, and she turns her back to me when I clean up on our walks. I have no doubt that she is uncomfortable with her inability to wait and that she has some stomach pain as well.
She initially wanted to eat and was begging for any food but everything I gave her increased her stomach issues. Now she is refusing food other than some cooked chicken and her Acana treats. When I first offered her the kibble she liked it, now she doesn't even want to go near it. She was eating the rice and broth no problem, now she just sprinkles it on the floor and walks away. 
She sleeps a lot, but she is also a 12-year-old house dog. That on its own is not concerning.
Two weeks ago, she was 48.5lbs. She is less now I suspect. 
She cannot do tripe, and when last I tried coconut oil, she was less than happy about it. 
She has always been a picky, temperamental eater and I have always struggled with it. Carmen tried desperately to help and even she was unable to solve this. I thought the raw was the solution, since she initially rebounded so well on it, but she never progressed to doing really well on it and eventually it also started making her sick.
I have questioned for years if it was ethical for me to save her at all. I thought we had resolved most of her issues, but I guess not. 
@David Winners, you said to ask myself if I would want to live like this. I need to think about that, because for the most part she actually has a pretty good life and is in good spirits. The vet wants to give this until December 1st. I think because she is otherwise in good health, he is hoping that we can find something that will resolve the eating issue. I suspect it poses a moral dilemma for him to suggest euthanizing a 12-year-old dog that is largely in good health and good spirits with an owner willing to do whatever it takes, and then some. I mean he did say he would not argue if I asked, but he also said he wouldn't at this point suggest it.
Anyway, I have some thinking to do, and I do sincerely thank you all for taking the time, again, to "listen" to me babble.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Is the vet doing anything to heal the ulcers?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Is the vet doing anything to heal the ulcers?


We were hoping that time on a bland diet would heal them. I am not sure what else we could do.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

What about medication? In humans, ulcers are caused by a bacteria, H. pylori, and antibiotics can help. Other drugs can help soothe and protect the irritated stomach. Can't they do this for dogs as well?

NSAIDS are the number one cause of stomach ulcers in dogs, so you obviously have a Catch-22 situation between treating the ulcers and keeping her aging joints comfortable.  But there is a lengthy list of drugs that can help heal the ulcers.






Stomach and Intestinal Ulcers in Dogs | PetMD


Dr. Lauren Jones discusses stomach and intestinal ulcers in dogs, including symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment options.



www.petmd.com


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> What about medication? In humans, ulcers are caused by a bacteria, H. pylori, and antibiotics can help. Other drugs can help soothe and protect the irritated stomach. Can't they do this for dogs as well?
> 
> NSAIDS are the number one cause of stomach ulcers in dogs, so you obviously have a Catch-22 situation between treating the ulcers and keeping her aging joints comfortable.  But there is a lengthy list of drugs that can help heal the ulcers.
> 
> ...


He did say that once I got some weight back on her we were going to revisit the pain meds paired with something to protect her stomach. I have a scheduled call with him tomorrow so I will ask about this. 
Thank you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis, I can understand your doubt. Is it possible to just enjoy her and not focus on her end of life or when you need to make that dreaded decision? From your posts I read that you and her are not ready to part with each other. There probably comes a time when you know. This going-back-and-forth time is so tough, no matter which pet you are struggling with.
My father in law is a retired veterinarian. He told me that most people wait too long to euthanize their pets, including he himself as he mentioned to me.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Treat the ulcers then she can enjoy eating again.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

She ate some cooked chicken today but left most of the rice. I got frustrated and took a page out of my horse book. I soaked some oatmeal and a bit of cornmeal in a bit of warm water, added a dab of molasses and a sprinkle of salt.
I have no idea if any of that is good for her, but she ate every bite, looked for more and has been napping since.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't think I would worry too much if it was 'good' .. as long as it isn't ' bad' (harmful) and she wants to eat it, then I say let her have what she wants. Probably a good many things upset her stomach right now with her ulcer. She probably feels okay as long as she doesn't put something in her stomach that will make it flare up. At some point, some calories - regardless of the source - is better than no calories.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> I don't think I would worry too much if it was 'good' .. as long as it isn't ' bad' (harmful) and she wants to eat it, then I say let her have what she wants. Probably a good many things upset her stomach right now with her ulcer. She probably feels okay as long as she doesn't put something in her stomach that will make it flare up. At some point, some calories - regardless of the source - is better than no calories.


That's sort of where my brain was at when I did it. She needs food. I mean, she had small bites of sweet potatoes and turkey last night but not enough to call a meal for fear it would make her sick.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I actually dislike when people say "you'll know" since I've lost count of how many people I've seen who should have but didn't.

Vets see 100 to 1 people who wait too long (for what?!?) vs those they would consel to wait. I err on the side of caution and would soomer be a week early than 10 minutes too late. 

We OWE that last little bit of compassion to them....I don't give a dam dam what I want.

Thoughts are with you Sabis Mom


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## Atlas Shrugged (5 mo ago)

I agree, we have always said that its not about us but when we see they are suffering its enough!

As long as they are happy and dont seem like they are suffering.

In those last moments we feel you owe it to them aswell, they have given us so so much.

That doesnt mean it makes the decision easier but we try to keep our emotions out of it, we have had that choice taken away from us a few times, ie a sudden illness hemangiosarcoma but the first 2 we made the choice as they both had cancer and we could see they were suffering. Its never an easy choice


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## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

I know Sadie got some sort of medication for her ulcers but I can't remember what. It was supposed to protect her stomach lining I believe. Hers were from giving her metacam for so many years for her joint pain. 

If she's eating the oatmeal mix I wonder if the vet can suggest something similar to Pedialyte that you can mix in? Something to give her some of the nutrients she's missing.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Fiber by way of Metamucil 
Freeze dried raw
Canned food
Baby food (fiber veggies)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lack of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea and test results all seem to point towards ulcers being the main issue. It sounds like she needs more then a bland diet to treat the ulcers if she is not doing well. There are medications that help heal ulcers prescribed by the vet. You may see improvements with the ulcer medication it’s worth a try. In addition maybe try the canned prescription ulcer food the canned may be more gentler on the stomach. As for quality of life that is a discussion between you, Shadow and the vet and no one else.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

For our dog in a similar situation we fed high calorie can food (we fed Instinct venison I think), raw premade patties and raw cornish hen, small quantities if he wanted. For pain the vet prescribed galliprant (easy on stomach) and tramadol. This really helped him to recover his appetite after a while, and feel better.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSD07 said:


> For our dog in a similar situation we fed high calorie can food (we fed Instinct venison I think), raw premade patties and raw cornish hen, small quantities if he wanted. For pain the vet prescribed galliprant (easy on stomach) and tramadol. This really helped him to recover his appetite after a while, and feel better.


Galliprant was tried. It caused her to vomit blood. Raw is not an option at this point. I may try some of the canned food from the vets.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Galliprant was tried. It caused her to vomit blood. Raw is not an option at this point. I may try some of the canned food from the vets.


 I’m so sorry, it’s really hard.. Yes we got lucky he could have galliprant, he had horrible reaction to rymadyl and other nsaids. Can food is much easier to digest.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Do they have a dog's equivalent to critical care? Critical care is a highly palatable powder mix for herbivores that are suffering from malnutrition etc. If Shadow likes the oatmeal mix I think you should let her have it. At this point any amount of calories probably helps. 

How are you making the chicken and rice? Fern will try her best to pick out the chicken. I make chicken broth at home and cook the rice with it. I shred the chicken very finely and it's hard for the dogs to pick it out. Maybe chicken+oatmeal thing you made? Does she like chicken broth? Maybe you can start mixing it into everything, very nourishing and it's easy on the stomach. 

I only know humans that had ulcers. A lot of them ended up eating a highly digestable grain (double water rice or quick oats) with broth. A lot of people like eating broth made of fermented soy paste. The fermented stuff can help with digestion etc.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hopps said:


> Do they have a dog's equivalent to critical care? Critical care is a highly palatable powder mix for herbivores that are suffering from malnutrition etc. If Shadow likes the oatmeal mix I think you should let her have it. At this point any amount of calories probably helps.
> 
> How are you making the chicken and rice? Fern will try her best to pick out the chicken. I make chicken broth at home and cook the rice with it. I shred the chicken very finely and it's hard for the dogs to pick it out. Maybe chicken+oatmeal thing you made? Does she like chicken broth? Maybe you can start mixing it into everything, very nourishing and it's easy on the stomach.
> 
> I only know humans that had ulcers. A lot of them ended up eating a highly digestable grain (double water rice or quick oats) with broth. A lot of people like eating broth made of fermented soy paste. The fermented stuff can help with digestion etc.


Today, quick oats soaked not cooked and nice and soupy with just a bit of cooked cornmeal, a dribble of honey and a sprinkle of salt. I added a bit of shredded chicken to her evening meal and she gobbled the whole mess.
When horses feel poorly you boil oats and bran and corn and add molasses. Its miracle feed for horses. Often if they were really poorly we added a bit of salt. It does something, I just don't remember what. 
Years ago I had a momma dog in a bad way and not taking food. The vet suggested heating the food and adding just a sprinkle of salt. Something about stimulating the appetite. 
Obviously, I am not feeding Punk any bran. The food is running through her now! But I had quick oats and cornmeal, both of which are nutritious and have calories. I used molasses the first time and she liked it but it's pure sugar, so I swapped it for the honey. 
None of this is a cure but it is much needed calories and nutrients that buy her time for us stupid humans to figure out what the **** is going on.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

i like the idea of honey versus molasses.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Today, quick oats soaked not cooked and nice and soupy with just a bit of cooked cornmeal, a dribble of honey and a sprinkle of salt. I added a bit of shredded chicken to her evening meal and she gobbled the whole mess.
> When horses feel poorly you boil oats and bran and corn and add molasses. Its miracle feed for horses. Often if they were really poorly we added a bit of salt. It does something, I just don't remember what.
> Years ago I had a momma dog in a bad way and not taking food. The vet suggested heating the food and adding just a sprinkle of salt. Something about stimulating the appetite.
> Obviously, I am not feeding Punk any bran. The food is running through her now! But I had quick oats and cornmeal, both of which are nutritious and have calories. I used molasses the first time and she liked it but it's pure sugar, so I swapped it for the honey.
> None of this is a cure but it is much needed calories and nutrients that buy her time for us stupid humans to figure out what the **** is going on.


That sounds awesome, calories are calories! Miracle feed for a miracle dog 
Cooking the quick oats in hot water might make it easier for her. The heat will break it down more and make it even more digestible. But I know Shadow can be... peculiar with everything so maybe not lol. I hope Shadow continues to eat this and gains some of the needed weight back. I believe molasses has more minerals and goodies vs honey but I could be mistaken. Fingers crossed


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

At his point I think what ever she wants to eat and doesn't make her GI upset worse is fair game. Your oatmeal, corn meal soup seems to be enjoyable to her so I say go for it. If her poops still seem too soft maybe some psyllium husk powder added to her meal. 1/2 tsp to start. Ziva gets it everyday to keep her solid and anal glands happy. I wouldn't worry about balanced diet at this point. 
I agree with the many that suggested really looking to treat the ulcers. I wouldn't want to eat if I had ulcers causing tummy pain and nausea. 
The fact that she does want to eat when presented with certain foods speaks to the fact she hasn't given up yet. The day she doesn't want her blueberry muffin will speak volumes.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Health benefits of both honey and molasses:









Molasses Nutrition Facts and Health Benefits


Molasses is a sugar derivative with some health benefits to offer. A couple tablespoons of blackstrap molasses provides more potassium than a banana.




www.verywellfit.com












Honey Nutrition Facts and Health Benefits


A one-tablespoon (21 gram) serving of honey provides 64 calories, 0 grams of protein, 0 grams of fat, and 17 grams of carbs,which all are sugars.




www.verywellfit.com





Both seem to have benefits. Small amounts of either seem to have benefit. Maybe alternate to keep things interesting for the picky punk.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Springbrz said:


> Both seem to have benefits.


Interesting....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> She ate some cooked chicken today but left most of the rice. I got frustrated and took a page out of my horse book. I soaked some oatmeal and a bit of cornmeal in a bit of warm water, added a dab of molasses and a sprinkle of salt.
> I have no idea if any of that is good for her, but she ate every bite, looked for more and has been napping since.


You are nothing if not resourceful.

I'd like to think that I'm going sky diving the day before I decide to give up the ghost. I know that's probably not reality but I'm going to give it my best.

We want to live right up to the point that we don't. I don't think dogs are any different.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was hopeful when she ate but the diarrhea got worse if thats possible. I was up most of the night. We will be skipping breakfast against my better judgement.
I may try cooking the oats, but that takes some of the nutrients out. I had tried oats before but made like porridge, thick and sticky, and she hated it. 
I am running out of ideas.
The only molasses I have is baking molasses, different from blackstrap and mostly just pure sugar. That was my reason for switching it.
On our walk this morning she got in an argument with a passing dog, they mouthed off at each other from opposite sides of the street. Then she stalked and chased a Bluejay and then she tried to chase a bike. I think she is still in good spirits.
David, she may like skydiving. She spent her first couple of years trying to fly.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Hi Sabi, I’m truly sorry about your “punk”. I know these things are tough. Just wanted to send a few links over to maybe give a try if you have them accessible to you. I’ve used them before and it’s been helpful.
https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/justfoodfordogs-pantry-fresh-balance-remedy-vet-support-frozen-dog-food-125-oz-3361101?store_code=592&mr:device=m&mr:adType=local&cm_mmc=PSH|GGL|CMB|SBU02|0|VIP-JFFD|5QPgs5RLYcXKp4sz1bcKRj|58700007795019129|PRODUCT_GROUP|0|0|pla-1334807508232|138541245800|17049020368&gclid=CjwKCAjwqJSaBhBUEiwAg5W9p06T38uiGBxpCWVJaIXBUpJkyPtnVe_SV1xKNa6ELaJWKRYEzg2E9hoCQ28QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
( this is almost
Like a gruel but with added nutrients in it and little meat )
Under the Weather Freeze Dried Bland Diet All Life Stage Dry Dog Food - Rice & Chicken | dog Dry Food | PetSmart
( this one is my personal
Favorite but I know shadow likes gruel so the other might be more appealing but this one is made to soothe stomachs and I’ve used it while babysitting dogs on special diets ) 
I am very sorry again. It’s such a blessing she is still so full of life


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Rosebud99 said:


> Interesting....





Sabis mom said:


> I was hopeful when she ate but the diarrhea got worse if thats possible. I was up most of the night. We will be skipping breakfast against my better judgement.
> I may try cooking the oats, but that takes some of the nutrients out. I had tried oats before but made like porridge, thick and sticky, and she hated it.
> I am running out of ideas.
> The only molasses I have is baking molasses, different from blackstrap and mostly just pure sugar. That was my reason for switching it.
> ...


Sabis, her mixed signals must drive your crazy. I have lost track of her health journey but has there ever been a clear diagnoses?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wolfy, she's been diagnosed with stomach ulcers, as a result of the NSAID medications she's been on for joint problems. It's the most common cause of ulcers. 

She also has had digestive issues for most of her life, probably due to the rough start she had as a pup.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Sabis, her mixed signals must drive your crazy. I have lost track of her health journey but has there ever been a clear diagnoses?


@Sunsilver nailed it.
The bottom line is that at this point its becoming pretty clear that this pup should not have survived. I should not have intervened. 
But she was so tiny and helpless, with such a fighters soul. She simply would not give up, and because she wouldn't, I couldn't. We are still in that spot today. She won't give up and because she won't I can't. 
Her original name was Lucy, named after Lucy Liu. Tiny little outspoken fighter.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Would sweet potato mashed with a dash of maple syrup or honey, a tiny knob of butter, infused with turkey, tempt her?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Dunkirk said:


> Would sweet potato mashed with a dash of maple syrup or honey, a tiny knob of butter, infused with turkey, tempt her?


She likes sweet potato. I bake them often and we share. The problem right now is that when she does eat the diarrhea gets worse.
But she has had half a cup or so of the kibble and so far, so good. I will see how she gets through the night and try a cup for breakfast if she is keeping it in. I still have no idea how to get six cups of kibble into this dog in one day! Thats how much of it she is supposed to eat. When she was on kibble, she only ate 2 cups a day.
She vomited a huge puddle of stomach bile earlier today. That concerned me. There was a lot of it, and it came pouring out like water.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> @Sunsilver nailed it.
> The bottom line is that at this point its becoming pretty clear that this pup should not have survived. I should not have intervened.
> But she was so tiny and helpless, with such a fighters soul. She simply would not give up, and because she wouldn't, I couldn't. We are still in that spot today. She won't give up and because she won't I can't.
> Her original name was Lucy, named after Lucy Liu. Tiny little outspoken fighter.


I totally disagree that Shadow should not have survived or that you should not have intervened. All her issues aside she has been your joy for 12 years and you hers. Don't go there and don't do that. We may not understand the why but there is a reason. For all things there is a reason and all things there is a season. It is a journey the two of you were meant to take together.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I don't know your dog's entire health history, but have you ever tried giving her Slippery Elm syrup? 

Nikki had some GI issues that even Texas A&M couldn't help us with, so I tried the SE syrup as a last resort, and it helped her so much. 

Slippery Elm for Dogs: Safely Treat Irritation - Whole Dog Journal (whole-dog-journal.com)
A Complete Guide to Using Slippery Elm for Pets - Dr. Axe (draxe.com)


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Just to tempt her have you tried baby food, or offering small pieces of sardines as a treat? Thinking of you both and holding in my heart.


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## Matemari (May 6, 2014)

Hello,
I am so sorry to hear your story,
Of the 8 GSDs that have been around me during different steps of my life, 2 have die with similar stories or condition that what you described.
With the last one ‘Neo’, I went with an experiment based of my knowledge from the first one. And I gave him probably an extra year.
I went with medium to higher dosis of a medicine called “Tylosin”, and change the diet to only sweet potato, some oats, fish oil, and fish (cheap white plus a little of salmon). Everything overcook. And 6 meals a day, small ones.
The diarrea was very controlable until the end with that medicine and food. 
Probably I was overmedicating towards the end, but he was relatively happy, so I didn’t care I was generating other issues, I knew it was just a matter of adding some time.
This is just a personal story, it may not work for everyone, but just wanted to share in case you or someone wants to try.
I wished you a lot of strength in this difficult time.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I keep checking in to see how she is.....so behind on messages and emails - sorry not to have checked in before,....there have been a bunch of threads I was trying to get through to add to....

I have a rescue cat....she has a good appetite, but has had liquid bowel movements for months.....and months.....did a good dental over a year ago, thought that would help....nope...she lost about 1/3 of her body weight....she is on a couple of meds, antibiotics and pred (liquids - add to canned food)...started on a liquid called ENSORB (get it from chewy).....all the meds and good quality canned have helped - on and off.....if I try to decrease the frequency of the meds, the BMs are liquid again...........she is happy, has an appetite, and just keep the meds going for as long as she seems to want to be here......

tje Ensorb is for both dogs and cats and I think it comes in pills and liquid- maybe ask your vet what he thinks of it????

You are being the best ever caregiver for Shadow ---- <<<<hugs>>>>


Lee


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

I have no answers, but my heart goes out to you. We knew Joey’s quality of life was diminishing; when he stopped eating, then his front legs gave out, our vet said, based on her 10-year experiences with Joey, that it was time.

Please take comfort in knowing you’ve done (and are doing) all you can for your baby.


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## GSD Friend (May 16, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> . . . She is now eating almost nothing. Plays, barks, jumps around. Mouths off the TV, begs for treats and bites of dinner, gets excited to go outside. But so thin it is heart breaking to pet her. She sleeps a lot, which is probably normal for a 12-year-old dog.
> I am taking her out every few hours at least, pee pads are down although she misses them sometimes. Often.
> I don't care about the extra cleaning or the extra pee breaks. I just feel awful for her. She gets all upset when she has an accident. It cannot be comfortable. And she isn't even acting hungry anymore, which makes me feel worse.
> I feel like I have tried everything. I don't want her to suffer, and starvation is a brutal way to die.


It really is heartbreaking when we lose an old dog. But from what you said, in the part of the quote I copied above, it sounds like she is still enjoying life if she plays, barks, jumps around, and is excited to go outside. So her mental state is good even if her body is failing. Maybe you don't have to decide yet. A lot of others posted natural ulcer treatments that might work, and giving her a bland diet for a while of white rice, boiled chicken or canned turkey, canned pumpkin, etc., might help. You will just be prolonging the inevitable decision, but when the time is right you might know based on a further deterioration of her health.

My first GSD, Rocco, lived to 13, but the last 6 months were hard for both of us. He had a spinal disc problem that gradually made his rear end limp, and he couldn't walk. But it was paralysis, not painful. I had to take him out to pee and poop using a belly band to lift his rear, and he always looked appreciative and embarrassed when I lifted his rear, and he struggled to stand up to help me. He was incontinent with peeing, so I did lots of laundry to replace his bedding constantly. And he did lose weight, from 95 pounds down to about 82, but he still ate enough. I know that being incapacitated caused him mental suffering, but I totally babied him and gave him lots of love so he seemed happy. Some people said I should have euthanized him sooner, but I went according to his mental state. He was clear, lucid, affectionate, and loved going outside to lie on the porch for hours every day because we had just moved to the mountains a year earlier. So for the first time in his life, he could listen to nature sounds and smell wild animals in the safety of our big yard. I wanted to give him peaceful experiences before he died. I even invited his second-most favorite person to visit and say goodbye to him, which made him very happy because he hadn't seen her for a year. I won't go into more detail about how I tried to create a spiritual "hospice" experience for the last 6 months of his life because most non-dog lovers would think I'm crazy. ;-)


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

I've always gone by the idea that they will let you know when it's time and it doesn't sound like she's telling you it's time yet. 

Other than the not eating, she sounds like she's not ready to call it quits yet and as a number of other replies have mentioned, the not eating is easily attributable to the ulcers, which if they're caused by H. Pylori bacteria (as with humans), are easily treatable with antibiotics (the voice of personal experience). I would definitely try to address the ulcers before doing anything more drastic.


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## GSD Friend (May 16, 2021)

I found this on a Buddhist blog, and the lines I put in bold font really resonate with me: 

*Euthanasia* – In a short blog it’s not possible to debate all the considerations of euthanasia. I doubt that readers of this blog are among the group of people who would choose to euthanize a pet that can still enjoy a good quality of life. We don’t want our pet to suffer, but nor should we be in a hurry to short-cut the process. Dying is natural. It has its time and place. *We need to give our pet time to come to terms with what is happening to him/her.* Some Buddhists take the view that euthanasia may only postpone the suffering which a being has the karma to experience. *My personal opinion is that we should only look to euthanasia when all other options have been exhausted, when there is only one outcome to which our friend is heading, when all our goodbyes have been said and when, if we were to change places, we would seek this for ourselves.*


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I want to share the end of life experience with my heart dog, a Whippet who lived 14 years, not meaning to compare it to Shadow's situation. I decided to post this as an illustration that his zest for life itself (the hunting and chasing) was not gone but his body just couldn't support his spirit. 
He had gradually getting more painful due to arthritis everywhere in his body but chasing balls and critters never kept him from doing it. We managed it with Adaquin and NSAIDS. But he became painful despite all that to the point that I couldn't even pet him without him screaming. But once in a while I let him run, since it was his number one passion in life and of course he had to pay the price. But never running was not an option for him. That in itself was a difficult issue for me. And we had already considered ending his life but couldn't do it since he still enjoyed running once in a while. Then one day, I walked over to him while he rested in a chair and when I put my hand in the direction of his head, he screamed. That was the sign for me to have to part with him. This was 12 years ago and writing it up still hurts but without regrets. Picture when he was in his prime as a 3-year old


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

That was the case with Star. It was getting harder and harder for her to walk, but since the vet thought it was DM, and she wasn't showing signs of pain, I didn't want to euthanize. Three weeks before her death, she was still chasing a ball in the back yard. Two weeks before, she got upset with me when I didn't allow her to come in the car with Eska. (This usually meant a trip to the local military base, and a chance to run off leash, but THIS time, Eska was going to the vet's to be spayed.)

Towards the end, she seemed to be having trouble eating. I thought she might have a sore mouth or gums, but the vet checked and said they were fine. She would leave her bowl and come back to it several times. Eventually, she was leaving food in the bowl, something she'd never done before. She was also having trouble drinking, and I had to put a pad with and edge around it, as the floor around the bowl would just be soaking wet. 

I knew we were at the end when she suddenly collapsed on the weekend, and could no longer walk at all. When my tenant and I carried her down the stairs to pee, she couldn't even stand up, and although he bladder was leaking, she seemed unaware of it, and made no attempt to urinate. It was as if the DM had abruptly shut down her hind end completely. Either that, or she hurt her back when she tried to climb the stairs, and fell. 😥

I had had this happen with a previous dog, who hurt her back when she caught her foot in my purse strap, but in her case, she recovered very quickly. In Star's case, there was no improvement over the weekend, so I knew it was time. 

I'll say it again - there are some crazies out there that will try to keep their dog going no matter what, even when it is obviously suffering. But most of us know our dog and can read what they are telling us. Also, in this case, there was the strictly practical matter of trying to get a 70 lb. dog outside to pee when they couldn't do anything to help themselves, and my tenant was away at work during the day. And I don't consider a doggie wheelchair to be an option for a 14 1/2 year old dog...that just does not make sense!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

One and a half cups of kibble this morning and again tonight. Good poop and bright eyed. Incredibly it would seem this dog is rebounding AGAIN!
I have no idea where this journey is going but apparently, we have miles left to travel.
She is weak, she is thin, she is tired. But there is just no quit in this dog. She was playing hockey-soccer with the kids this morning.
A month, a week, a day, an hour. Whatever she gives me I will take with love and a happy heart.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just a pic of my Punk begging for my food.







Note how small she is. That is a normal dinning table. Her ears are barely above.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Hey Punk, good to see you. ♥


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Just a pic of my Punk begging for my food.
> View attachment 592768
> 
> Note how small she is. That is a normal dinning table. Her ears are barely above.


Taking this time make fun her height is just rude.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> One and a half cups of kibble this morning and again tonight. Good poop and bright eyed. Incredibly it would seem this dog is rebounding AGAIN!
> I have no idea where this journey is going but apparently, we have miles left to travel.
> She is weak, she is thin, she is tired. But there is just no quit in this dog. She was playing hockey-soccer with the kids this morning.
> A month, a week, a day, an hour. Whatever she gives me I will take with love and a happy heart.


This made me smile so big! Go Punk! She’s a tough ol girl for sure.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Aww big puppy eyes! Is she still getting her blueberry muffins?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hopps said:


> Aww big puppy eyes! Is she still getting her blueberry muffins?


She is..sort of. We still share, I just give her a lot less. Same number of bites just smaller pieces. 

So really, I have reclaimed my breakfast.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Bearshandler said:


> Taking this time make fun her height is just rude.


This is how Ellie reacts when you comment on her height


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

She will let you know when it’s time. Hugs during this awful time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Cross your fingers everyone! Here we go again. She has been eating 1.5 cups of kibble, twice a day. Drinking tons of water, about 3-4 litres a day, and pooping on every walk. Solid thankfully.
This morning she refused her breakfast. Dish has been taken away and no more will be offered until dinner. Hopefully she is just being fussy.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, I just had a thought here. On the days when she doesn't eat, do you still give her meds? When my husband was sick, I found out the hard way that the level of Coumadin (Warfarin) in his blood would go through the roof if he didn't eat! This meant he was at high risk of having a serious hemorrhage.  (Yes, I know she's not on a blood thinner, but...)

Maybe you need to give her something to coat her stomach when she's not eating, or cut back on her medication. The presence of food in the digestive system can greatly affect absorption, and if the med is irritating to the system, it will be 10X as irritating if there is no food present!

I think Pepto-Bismol is safe for dogs - I've heard Dr. Pol prescribe it. If you're not okay with that, ask your vet what would be safe.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would take Doc Pol's advice!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It's certainly worth a try, and it's cheap!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Big NO on Pepto-Bismol for Shadow. Pepto is full of Salicylates (asprin) and can cause gastric bleeding. Given Shadow already has ulcers I highly doubt it would be safe for her.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

@Sabis mom has your vet ever suggested Pepcid AC to help with Shadow's ulcers? Easing her tummy upset would certainly be a help in keeping her appetite up.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I’m addition to something like Pepcid - goats milk is also great for ulcers.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I just wanted to give everyone an update. This dog is so very fascinating.
She has regained some weight. Currently at 54lbs. Sleeps tons, but spunky and sassy when awake. She is holding steady at 2.5 cups of kibble a day split into two meals. She will not eat more no matter what. She leaves it in her dish. At $200 a bag I can't afford to waste it. We have had no further bouts of diarrhea or vomiting. However, she is itchy and has some irritation going on with her ears so we may have an allergy issue blooming again. My goal is to try and transition her back to a normal kibble once I am sure she is stable. Hopefully one a bit less expensive. But I am holding off on any changes for the moment. 
She is wobbly and has not much control over her back legs anymore, so I have added a few more mats on the floor to cover the corners and doorways. Cheap ones that can just get tossed if we have any accidents. 
The vet had been very clear that in his opinion exercise needed to be minimal. He felt that over doing it would increase the rate of deterioration. Of course, when she was sick, I was not walking her because I didn't want her using more energy than she was taking in. Her vet wanted just a few short ambles a day given her age. I have a use it or lose it mentality. I believe inactivity kills. But against my better judgement I followed the vets advice, until the day she slipped on the floor and fell trying to chase her ball, which she was throwing around by herself. She gets two long walks, two short walks a day now. She isn't bouncing off the walls anymore. I pay attention and follow her lead though, yesterday morning she just wanted to go pee and come back in, so we did that. On her later walk she was pulling to go, so we went. When she tripped and fell, I called it, and we headed home.
Our current dilemma is that the back foot scuffing now has her middle nails down to nubs and random bleeding. The boots make her desperately unsteady and there is a lot of pavement to walk on, not a lot of grass. I have no vehicle. Any suggestions to protect her feet are welcome.
All things considered, it seems so surreal that just a few weeks ago I thought I was losing her and I look at her now and she is once again my little Punk. For a day, a week, a month I have her back. I'll take it.


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> I just wanted to give everyone an update. This dog is so very fascinating.
> She has regained some weight. Currently at 54lbs. Sleeps tons, but spunky and sassy when awake. She is holding steady at 2.5 cups of kibble a day split into two meals. She will not eat more no matter what. She leaves it in her dish. At $200 a bag I can't afford to waste it. We have had no further bouts of diarrhea or vomiting. However, she is itchy and has some irritation going on with her ears so we may have an allergy issue blooming again. My goal is to try and transition her back to a normal kibble once I am sure she is stable. Hopefully one a bit less expensive. But I am holding off on any changes for the moment.
> She is wobbly and has not much control over her back legs anymore, so I have added a few more mats on the floor to cover the corners and doorways. Cheap ones that can just get tossed if we have any accidents.
> The vet had been very clear that in his opinion exercise needed to be minimal. He felt that over doing it would increase the rate of deterioration. Of course, when she was sick, I was not walking her because I didn't want her using more energy than she was taking in. Her vet wanted just a few short ambles a day given her age. I have a use it or lose it mentality. I believe inactivity kills. But against my better judgement I followed the vets advice, until the day she slipped on the floor and fell trying to chase her ball, which she was throwing around by herself. She gets two long walks, two short walks a day now. She isn't bouncing off the walls anymore. I pay attention and follow her lead though, yesterday morning she just wanted to go pee and come back in, so we did that. On her later walk she was pulling to go, so we went. When she tripped and fell, I called it, and we headed home.
> ...


Happy for this update and she’s making a comeback. You mentioned booties, I wonder if the balloon type would be ok (if you haven’t tried those) since they’re thinner? 
I like the advice of going at her pace.


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## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

I'm not sure if these would work for her or not but I tried them for Whiskey. Since his injury his gait is off and when he is tired he tends to drag his toes, I felt a formed boot would affect his gait even more and wanted him to be able to do what works for him without hindrance, but he also needs boots sometimes for walking through town where they put salt down. They have worked well for him so far! They're also cheap!









Tough Boots with Grip | Mtn Ridge






www.mtnridge.com


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sabi, why is issue known as to why she's drinking so much water? Is it the meds or a condition similar to diabetes?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> Sabi, why is issue known as to why she's drinking so much water? Is it the meds or a condition similar to diabetes?


It has settled down a bit, although it's still a lot. Best guess is just her adjusting from the raw/cooked diets with tons of moisture in them to the kibble. She is still drinking about 3 litres a day, but not peeing more so she must need it.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Pepcid may also help with the itching.










Famotidine (Pepcid®) for Dogs - PetPlace.com


Is Famotidine (Pepcid) for dogs safe? Not to worry, it is a common over-the-counter medication for dogs and is only toxic in large doses. Read more here.



www.petplace.com






Famotidine is used to treat a variety of causes of nausea in dogs and sometimes prescribed to pets that have a decreased appetite. Click here to learn more about caring for a dog that won’t eat.
*Because famotidine blocks histamine, it is sometimes used in addition to other medications, such as steroids or diphenhydramine (Benadryl®), to treat an allergic reaction.*
Famotidine is used in many situations that result in stomach problems, ulcers, or diseases that cause nausea and vomiting. Examples include inflammatory bowel disease, acute pancreatitis, or infections such as canine parvoviral enteritis or helicobacter.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> The boots make her desperately unsteady and there is a lot of pavement to walk on, not a lot of grass.


How about something like these. It says they *can* be worn outdoors - just not slip proof enough for snow and ice









Grippers™ Non Slip Dog Socks


Non slip dog socks to give your dog traction on slippery surfaces such as tile and hardwood. Unique design has grip around the entire paw for maximum stability.




dogquality.com


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Skateboarders use this to protect their shoes from wearing


Shoe Repair and Protective Coating for Leather, Vinyl, Rubber or Canvas
Bonds, protects and rebuilds for a permanent repair
Excellent sealant – Perfect for patching Small holes
Waterproof – Bond remains secure even when exposed to Water
Creates extra traction – can even be used on skateboards











Amazon.com: Shoe Goo Repair Adhesive for Fixing Worn Shoes or Boots, Clear, 3.7-Ounce Tube : Sof Sole: Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry


Amazon.com: Shoe Goo Repair Adhesive for Fixing Worn Shoes or Boots, Clear, 3.7-Ounce Tube : Sof Sole: Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry



www.amazon.com


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Dunkirk said:


> Skateboarders use this to protect their shoes from wearing
> 
> 
> Shoe Repair and Protective Coating for Leather, Vinyl, Rubber or Canvas
> ...


Ummmm, no! Maybe to fix a dog shoe but not for dog pad contact

*VAPOR HARMFUL*. Contains toluene and petroleum distillate. May cause dizziness, headache or nausea. Causes eye, skin, nose and throat irritation. 

H302 - *Harmful if swallowed*. H319 - Causes serious eye irritation. H315 - Causes skin irritation.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

WNGD said:


> Ummmm, no! Maybe to fix a dog shoe but not for dog pad contact
> 
> *VAPOR HARMFUL*. Contains toluene and petroleum distillate. May cause dizziness, headache or nausea. Causes eye, skin, nose and throat irritation.
> 
> H302 - *Harmful if swallowed*. H319 - Causes serious eye irritation. H315 - Causes skin irritation.


 I'm sorry, I should have been explained to put it on footwear Shadow is comfortable wearing, to extend their longevity.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> It has settled down a bit, although it's still a lot. Best guess is just her adjusting from the raw/cooked diets with tons of moisture in them to the kibble. She is still drinking about 3 litres a day, but not peeing more so she must need it.


I was feeding HK and went back to kibble. Fern was drinking about 3 liters a day on kibble as well. I think it takes a bit to adjust being back on a lower moisture food as well. 


Rosebud99 said:


> How about something like these. It says they *can* be worn outdoors - just not slip proof enough for snow and ice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used this for Fern. Great traction at home and seems fairly comfortable. Fern wore it outside before and she didn't seem bothered at all.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

These are options for knuckling:









Rear No-Knuckling Training Sock


The Rear No-Knuckling Training Sock from Walkin' Pets is designed to enhance proprioception for disabled or injured dogs that drag their back paws.



www.handicappedpets.com













The Toe'sUP Walkaboot


The Toe'sUP Walkaboot Anti-Knuckling Aid helps dogs ditch dragging paws by providing toe lift and knuckle support for comfortable walking assistance. The 2-in-1 Boot and Paracord solution lifts and cradles the paw without splitting the toes and causing discomfort. For paw-sitive corrective...




www.walkaboutharnesses.com


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Maybe just wrapping here paw in vet wrap during walks would be enough to protect her toes and give her traction too.
Bulk packs of vet wrap are pretty cheap on amazon. Well in the US anyway.

ETA: Baby/toddler sock on the foot with over wrap of vet wrap is worth a try


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Springbrz said:


> Maybe just wrapping here paw in vet wrap during walks would be enough to protect her toes and give her traction too.
> Bulk packs of vet wrap are pretty cheap on amazon. Well in the US anyway.
> 
> ETA: Baby/toddler sock on the foot with over wrap of vet wrap is worth a try


I use baby socks and vet wrap for injuries. She has walked in them before but I suspect it won't protect enough, but worth a shot. I also suspect that stopping the knuckling will cause other issues, but I will check it out. 
I ordered some of the grippers earlier.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sunsilver said:


> I think Pepto-Bismol is safe for dogs - I've heard Dr. Pol prescribe it. If you're not okay with that, ask your vet what would be safe.


I love Dr Pol......BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He uses peroxide to clean wounds....kills tissue....he does alot of things that are no longer considered the treatment of choice.................he can sure pull a calf, and relieve gas in a cow....but as far as going on his show to guide someone with an issue - ahhhhh - NO

Lee


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Pepto is not safe for dogs. There is another OTC that is but I don't remember what it is. 

What I've found is that if my picky eater (currently with a bundle of health things) is off her feed, she needs a serious toilet break. It's like she's saying "My system is full!"


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Backing up to read more of this thread: 

Dealing with similar issues, the acupuncture/wholistic vet recommended a host of products - taurine, lion's mane (fruiting body), MCT oil, creatine and 1/2 an egg once a day. - measuring this out & cooking ground turkey to top the feed makes dinner prep for the dog more involved than my own dinner prep. Seems to be helping along with the acupuncture treatments. Not cheap. Not even inexpensive but you could do the 1/2 egg once a day and see if that alone would help.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> I love Dr Pol......BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He uses peroxide to clean wounds....kills tissue....he does alot of things that are no longer considered the treatment of choice.................he can sure pull a calf, and relieve gas in a cow....but as far as going on his show to guide someone with an issue - ahhhhh - NO
> 
> Lee


Very true, Lee. If you compare the way he does field surgery with how Dr. Oakley does it, there's a huge difference. She will intubate large animals, and monitor their O2 levels with a tongue monitor, while Dr. Pol just knocks them down with the anesthetic, does a quick scrub, and starts cutting!

I've noticed the younger vets using more modern techniques, like injecting local anesthetic before castrating a horse, and using a mouth gag when floating teeth, rather than relying on a twitch and a firm grip on the tongue!

At least he now intubates small animals during surgery. I remember during the first season or two, he wouldn't bother with this, even performing spay surgery on a cat with no intubation, and therefore no anesthetic other that the IV injection used at the start of the surgery. What the heck would you do if the animal began to wake up partway through? He didn't even have an IV going on the animal, so he could top up the anesthesia through the IV line!

P.S. When I first began nursing, some doctors were still ordering hygeol (a dilute bleach solution!) to clean and pack deep wounds!    I think hydrogen peroxide is less likely to kill healthy tissue than that!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> I love Dr Pol......BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He uses peroxide to clean wounds....kills tissue....he does alot of things that are no longer considered the treatment of choice.................he can sure pull a calf, and relieve gas in a cow....but as far as going on his show to guide someone with an issue - ahhhhh - NO
> 
> Lee


Dr Pol appeals because of his no-nonsense, common-sense approach. He uses tried and true techniques familiar to most who have spent time around horses and livestock. But I do agree that his methods have not advanced as they should. 
Lee, curious about your thoughts on those boots to prevent knuckling? Shadow has healed injuries to both cruciate tendons. Examining the anatomy in my mind those boots have the potential to put strain on those injury sites. I am debating them but concerned that they may cause other issues as they would undoubtedly impact gait.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I need to note that my "horse food" trick, while it seemed to backfire, coincided with a turnaround for her. 
She gobbled it all up, slept for hours, then had explosive diarrhea and vomited a huge puddle of watery stomach bile.
BUT...she then dove right to the kibble and never stopped. She has steadily gained weight and energy since. 
So maybe it did work in some fashion?


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Thanks for the update, Sabis Mom. I 100% agree with you about the exercise. As long as you let her dictate how much I think it could only help. It's critical for dogs.... and people. When you stop moving, everything stops working as it should. Good luck with the booties.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Final check up for a few months, hopefully. She is holding steady at 56lbs and looks good. Eyes clear and bright, coat shiny and full, alert and responsive attitude. 
She has some little bumps in her ears and some gunk, but the vet did a swab and said its not an infection. Something about skin mites that normally are kept in check by immune system. Same deal as the puppy mange thing that never went away for her. It's just her immune system trying to keep up and failing sometimes.
We discussed switching her food. He is on board with that but would prefer I wait a couple more months. Just to give her time to ensure she is stable. No more raw. He believes it is just to risky for her, I understand the thought process and cannot rule it out. Any slip up on my part or lack of quality control from the supplier could be extremely harmful. 
He also wants all the chicken removed from her diet going forward. Suggested fish. She is not a fan of fish, this could be interesting. I was laughing the other night that she won't eat sardines, will eat Ritz crackers. 
Little weirdo. Hates peanut butter, bacon or pizza bones but she likes Feta, olives and toast.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

That’s everyone’s favourite Punk! Good girl Shadow!


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