# Solid black face west german puppy



## rlv6161

*Looking for a West German show line* puppy with a solid black face.
I have seen several dogs with this coloring and I was wondering if anyone has puppies that have one of the parents with those markings


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## selzer

This is my girl:
SG1 Odessa von Aurelius

I think I got one of her face:









Is this what you are looking for? Or is there too much color there?


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## wolfstraum

SL pups are born mostly black, and the tan/red comes through as they grow....there is no way to guarantee that the face will remain black....I have seen a few with totally black faces, and their parents did not have that much black on their face...

this is a criteria no one can can even begin to guarantee.....it is really not predictable

Lee


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## Freestep

Most WGSL I see have less black on their faces than working lines, or even American show lines... some have a totally tan/red face with very little black except on the muzzle. I think it would be next to impossible to know which puppies will mature to have a blacker face, since they are born almost totally black and get lighter as they mature. But I would try to find a breeder whose dogs have blacker faces and heads, and don't suffer from color fading (some showline dogs only seem to have half a saddle).

I really like black faces too. A face that is totally black except for tan eyebrows and cheeks? Be still my heart!


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## Liesje

What Lee said. There are lots of them but impossible to predict unless you have a few generations. A solid black face can produce one that is not and vice versa.


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## Carriesue

What about and this is just me being curious... My pup is pretty dark(granted he is only four months so still a lot of time for his color to change), his dam is a solid black WL and sire is a traditional black and red WGSL(although if OP only wants a SL then this wouldn't be an option)... Is there more chance to produce a darker dog or one with a mask or still just one of those things too hard to predict? Asking on the OP's part, not trying to hijack! I would love if mine kept his mask but won't be the end of the world if he doesn't. 


Untitled (2013-01-07 02:27:14) by snowypony, on Flickr


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## GsdLoverr729

Carrie, I think it's still just a flip of the coin thing. I know that Gatordog has a WL/WGSL cross and he has little black on his face (though if I may say so myself, he's quite a hunk).


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## Carriesue

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Carrie, I think it's still just a flip of the coin thing. I know that Gatordog has a WL/WGSL cross and he has little black on his face (though if I may say so myself, he's quite a hunk).


He is a hunk! But I don't think either his sire or dam was an all black dog. I know there are a couple here with similar mixes like mine(Stark for one, can't remember the others name) and they both have masks... Again just something I'm curious about.


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## GsdLoverr729

I dunno. My girl's grand-dam on sire's side was solid black. Grand sire was black/tan. Her father had the same mask as she does.


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## rlv6161

very cute. It really depends on the parents


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## Cunningham GSDs

*Pic of pup from my last litter with black face at less than 8 weeks old*


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## Cunningham GSDs

I tried to post two pics and I don't think I did it right...sorry if not. But, if so, the pics are of the same pup....one at less than 8 weeks with black face. The other is at 5 months ....
I just wanted to show you how that black face changes as the pup grows. No telling how much black will be left by the time he is a year old.


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## Cunningham GSDs

And here is another pic.....I think this one is actually the one at 5 or 6 months of age. ALl threee are of same pup....just an example of how much they change in the first year.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/show-me-pictures/197128-show-me-your-then-now.html

And there is a black and tan thread in that section - dark faced puppies don't always turn out to have dark faces as an adult - ha - posting at the same time as above! I am all about color (dark!), but you have gone from black, to blue, to dark face, and I am thinking that you can stick with color, but need to decide on one, a few, etc. and focus in on those other qualities you were looking for (which are good and less random places to start). I am guessing you haven't looked at bi-colors yet, because if you do, wowza!


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## selzer

Although Odie has a pretty dark face, the only pup that I have gotten out of her to date, showed at 7 weeks that she would have plenty of color in her face. 

Different sire might make a difference though.


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## selzer

Cupcake's new owners posted a picture of her on PDB, she does not have the same black face as her mother:
Noel Von Aurelius


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## Anyu

Random question, only b/c this thread caught my eye, but what are you guys talking about; black faces & what not? Just curious...


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## GsdLoverr729

^ Black face... The mask extends all over his face/head.

Generally, this would be genetic. OP wants a WGSL pup who has a nice dark mask like Ursus, but there is no guarantee that even with two parents with good masks wil produce a pup with the same mask.


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## rlv6161

thats what Im talking about- beautiful dog- so now I need to be pointed in a direction please!


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## GsdLoverr729

I can PM you some WGSL breeders I've spoken to/looked at who own dogs with those dark faces, who MAY be breeding with other dark-faced dogs. If you wish. But even from two parents with dark faces, it's never a guarantee. 
I THINK, if I remember right, that Ursus (dog pictured above) has parents with light faces.


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## Anyu

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Black face... The mask extends all over his face/head.
> 
> Generally, this would be genetic. OP wants a WGSL pup who has a nice dark mask like Ursus, but there is no guarantee that even with two parents with good masks wil produce a pup with the same mask.


Ah! Thanks. Beauty...


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## rlv6161

just a quick explanation- since my shepherd died I have been at this for 3 wks. Everytime I go searching I find out nothing is available, so I broaden my search for other things. I have also learned alot on the way, like solid black are mostly working lines not show- I did not know that with west german dogs


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## rlv6161

anything helps


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## rlv6161

whos dog is ursus?


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## GsdLoverr729

Ursus was for sale at Von Lotta kennels in Atlanta, Georgia. He was sold... Well. I believe over a year ago. He is simply still on the site as a sold dog and seemed like a good example of what you're talking about. I personally ADORE those dark faces as well. Not sure if they bred him, or if they just imported him. 

I know some dogs at Alta Toll-Haus have dark faces, Liesje's Nikon has a gorgeous mask and comes from them. Oher Tannen also has some studs and bitches with dark faces.


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## Liesje

Nikon's face started pretty black but has faded some and now he was a white chin  Here he is about 10 months old, with me, and his mother









And this is his face now









When I think of a solid black face I think of the picture Kymmey posted. Some dogs will keep that solid muzzle, mask, and forehead for life.


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## GsdLoverr729

White chin or not, he is still STUNNING! :wub: Definitely one of my favorites on the forum lol.
I never noticed how much he lightened up... Regardless, some of the dogs Julie has/breeds have that nice black face/mask. So ya never know.


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## rlv6161

you have got what Im talking about, beautiful dog
but your saying no guarentees


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## rlv6161

thank you so much. I will start the calling again-wow full time job looking for a reputable breeder instead of a bad one like my last. That did not take long at all


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## GsdLoverr729

Yes, there are no guarantees. I suggest you check out the three I said and see what you think of their dogs. Contact the breeders themselves and talk to them. I have more WGSL breeders on my own list who I believe are trustworthy, reputable breeders with good-looking dogs. But in a litter, you simply can't tell for sure at 8 weeks which pups will keep the black face/dark mask. You also can't guarantee the parents will produce a pup with one.

And, even if they do, most of the really good breeders choose your puppy for you based on which one is best for your lifestyle and will thrive with you the most. 
I'm not trying to discourage you, I would LOVE for my next pup (who I'll be getting by the end of the year hopefully) to have a black face. But I know it's not a guarantee so I'm just going with a good breeder, with dogs I like the looks of and hoping for the best.


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## rlv6161

great


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## GsdLoverr729

Honestly, you need to put temperament, drive, stability and health above that gorgeous face. 
How would you feel about it if a breeder had the puppy with that great black face, but when they sold it to you it turned out to have drive out the yin-yang. To the point where it NEEDED to be a SAR dog or a k9 officer? It wouldn't work out well. At the same rate, if you get one with a little bit less black on its face but the perfect temperament and amount of drive for you then it makes up for not having the FULLY black face. 

Have you checked into bicolors? Or solid blacks? No, they're not so common in show lines... But they are possibly and would be guaranteed to have the black face you want.


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## rlv6161

I started my search with solid black found nothing, 
Wait let me make this clear temperment is everything absolutely but then I would have to trust my breeder and thats what I thought I was doing last time. Lets just say that at first glance we all tend to gravitate to looks but there is nothing better than a dog with great personality for what you want


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## GsdLoverr729

Well, you can actually get solid blacks out of two b/t parents. Since it's recessive. Black is pretty rare among showlines, but as I said it does happen. Bi-colors also happen. I know someone in the local ASL club who owns two bicolors. Both very gorgeous. Obviously not WGSL, but still.

Yes, temperament is most important over-all.


ETA- I do know a WGSL breeder with a male 7 month old pup who has this dark face. I don't think he'll lighten up much more...


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## selzer

Hmmm, Ingrid has a dark face, let me see:









Her dam's face is light:


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## GsdLoverr729

:wub: I want to huggle Ingrid!


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## Cunningham GSDs

Liesge, that dog is stunning! Wow...really beautiful.


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## shepherdmom

I don't know much about breeding, but I thought that the really dark black faces came from the Working Lines not the show lines. Both my boys had really dark faces.


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## GsdLoverr729

I think all lines have dogs with dark faces, and dogs with light faces. My girl is working lines, albeit a poorly bred working line most would say, and has a very light face.


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## shepherdmom

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I think all lines have dogs with dark faces, and dogs with light faces. My girl is working lines, albeit a poorly bred working line most would say, and has a very light face.


I guess I didn't explain very well. I thought show lines had to be the more classic look, because that was what they want in show. Isn't anything out of standard considered a fault? My girl is from show lines and she has the far more classic look.


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## GsdLoverr729

I would think, because the standard calls for a good mask and good pigment, that black faces should be good. I know I prefer deep pigment and black faces. Lol.


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## wolfstraum

There are some misconceptions here...

In European Showlines - there are NO blacks or bi-colors...none, nada, zip, zero, nil.....

If you want a black or a bi-color, you need a working line dog - even in the crosses, the showline does not carry black (maybe 1 in 1000 might have a gene slip through from 40 years ago...) I think it is pretty safe to say you won't get a black or a bi from a first generation cross....you MAY from a 2nd generation cross if the showline was bred to black, and the progeny was again bred to black (or to dog carrying black recessive)

ASLs come in all colors....but the OP had a Euro showline and that is the "look" she wants again...

Lee


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## Courtney

My showline male face is still pretty dark. He will be 3 in March and also has white on his chin & under his nose

This was taken last week.









His dad Orus










His mom's face is not dark either.


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## GsdLoverr729

wolfstraum said:


> There are some misconceptions here...
> 
> In European Showlines - there are NO blacks or bi-colors...none, nada, zip, zero, nil.....
> 
> If you want a black or a bi-color, you need a working line dog - even in the crosses, the showline does not carry black (maybe 1 in 1000 might have a gene slip through from 40 years ago...) I think it is pretty safe to say you won't get a black or a bi from a first generation cross....you MAY from a 2nd generation cross if the showline was bred to black, and the progeny was again bred to black (or to dog carrying black recessive)
> 
> ASLs come in all colors....but the OP had a Euro showline and that is the "look" she wants again...
> 
> Lee


My mistake. The SL dogs that I was thinking look more WGSL, but are ASL/WGSL crosses. :/


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## rlv6161

I would almost bet dad was dark as a baby but your dog is what Im talking about
want to let me know who breeder is


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oh I mentioned bi-color because I wanted the OP to see what is probably the most stunning look of them all.


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## shepherdmom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Oh I mentioned bi-color because I wanted the OP to see what is probably the most stunning look of them all.


Wow he is beautiful!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thank you, shepherdmom! He was my foster dog and I absolutely loved him. He came from a shelter in GA. He lives in a quiet home in the woods with two wonderful people and a bossy female GSD that they adopted from the rescue a year later. OP - I always mention it, don't know your location, but you can find some real gems in rescue/checking things like Petfinder | Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder


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## rlv6161

wow, wow i want that, has anyone heard of salerno breeders. please pm me
thanks


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## holland

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Oh I mentioned bi-color because I wanted the OP to see what is probably the most stunning look of them all.


He is a great advertisement for a rescue dog-and your photography-he's beautiful


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## wolfstraum

Drache Feld just posted that they had a litter recently - you could NOT GO WRONG with going with them - they are a very very reputable and well known breeder....

the other you mentioned??? I know you will get some PMs...........

Seriously - health should be your biggest concern after your experiences.....go with someone that is recommended by people who actually KNOW the breeder....there are at least 5 or 6 Drache Feld dogs here in my area that I referred....good temperament, no bad health problems of the ones I still keep in touch with (and 2 of them are around 10 years old).....

Lee


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## Lauri & The Gang

rlv6161 said:


> I started my search with solid black found nothing,
> Wait let me make this clear temperment is everything absolutely but then I would have to trust my breeder and thats what I thought I was doing last time. Lets just say that at first glance we all tend to gravitate to looks but there is nothing better than a dog with great personality for what you want


If you REALLY want a specific look and it is second to getting a dog with outstanding temperament and health - then you might be looking for quite some time.

3 weeks is nothing. Some people will wait for a year or more to get exactly what they want.


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## rlv6161

wow, you are really giving thumbs up to drake and it sounds like a thumbs down to the other. Just so you know, there have been a few on this journey that had bad written reviews, so I crossed them off right off the bat
ok thanks
Robin


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## Liesje

Saw this dog looking at a breeder from another thread, this is what I think of as a solid black mask


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## Courtney

Wow..I have never seen a mask like that. Do you think that dog is young? He looks mature to me in the picture. Yeah, Rusty has alot of black on his face but not like that. I like it.


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## Liesje

Could be young, but I have seen mature (~6 year old dogs) with a mask like that.


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## wolfstraum

Have seen a couple like that - one an imported Kirschental dog that does AKC obedience locally (also has major health issues tho! I think EPI or SIBO)

Another was a BYB dog I ran into at a vet clinic.....

it is almost bizarre looking....

Lee


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## Liesje

A young dog with a pretty black face and nice dark eyes (this dog is less than 1 year I believe)


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## Liesje

I don't remember this dog's name but I met him years back and I'm pretty sure he was an adult. I remember his face was black.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Saw this dog looking at a breeder from another thread, this is what I think of as a solid black mask


That just looks weird to me...


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## Liesje

Then try this one, a solid BLUE mask (Nikon's nephew)


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## wolfstraum

He still has eyebrows....dark ones, but it does break up teh face

Lee-


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## RocketDog

Here is a pic of my pup at 6 months, his face was pretty black:










Here he is now:











His eyebrows show, though.


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## RubyTuesday

I have a friend whose GSD has a mask like that. His mother had the same mask. My friend loves it. I don't care for it. Just a matter of taste. (I do like her dog though. He's an all around wonderful guy...smart, steady, sweet, uber responsive with tons of personality. Excellent with people, dogs large & small & other animals. )


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## BlackthornGSD

Workingline version....


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## Mrs.K

Now that is the kind of mask I like


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## mego

BlackthornGSD said:


> Workingline version....


WOWWWW!!
So good looking.


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## Jukebox

wolfstraum said:


> Drache Feld just posted that they had a litter recently - you could NOT GO WRONG with going with them - they are a very very reputable and well known breeder....
> 
> the other you mentioned??? I know you will get some PMs...........
> 
> Seriously - health should be your biggest concern after your experiences.....go with someone that is recommended by people who actually KNOW the breeder....there are at least 5 or 6 Drache Feld dogs here in my area that I referred....good temperament, no bad health problems of the ones I still keep in touch with (and 2 of them are around 10 years old).....
> 
> Lee


My puppy (Jackson) is from that litter that Drache Feld posted. He is pretty dark but just 9 weeks old so who knows how dark his face will be when he matures. Charlie was a great guy to talk to and taught me so much about his dogs and the breed in general. i would totally recommend anyone going with a pup from Drache Feld!

this pic was taken this morning. he turned 9 weeks today.


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## nikko

this is nike at just about 6 months old.....LOVE LOVE LOVE his dark face!!!









who am i kidding....LOVE EVERYTHING about this boy!!! lol


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## robinhuerta

This is *Nike's* 1/2 sister......*Envy von Huerta Hof* at 4 1/2 mos.
She also has an extremely nice, dark mask......their father is producing this.


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## Neko

Zeus is going to have a dark mask, both of his parents do =)


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