# Has anyone experienced these changes when switching?



## elle1515 (May 12, 2010)

Hello-

We switched our 1 year old over to raw about one month ago. Just wanted to get some feedback about two of the changes I've seen and if they are normal.

First, he has been shedding like crazy the past 3 weeks! His fur looks great, but we have never had this amount of fur everywhere. We are in the middle of winter so I don't think he's blowing his coat... The amount of shedding seems to be on the decrease this week.

Second- he started vomiting small amounts of yellow bile. This has happened twice both around his morning or dinner time. Is this something that is common? It never happened when he was on kibble.

Other than that, the changes have been great. We were battling skin issues and hotspots on kibble and he has not had any since the switch!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He's blowing his coat. Both my dogs and my cat did this when switched to RAW.

I think he is probably throwing up because his stomach is empty. Are you feeding him the right amount, in the correct ratios?


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## elle1515 (May 12, 2010)

He's 65 lbs and has been getting 2 lbs of chicken leg quarters per day with a little bit of organ meat which I recently started adding. He also gets a few eggs each week. I'm looking to start adding some muscle meat to his diet as well but haven't started yet. Been trying to take it really slow with what I add given our experiences with skin staph infections and hot spots in the past. I want to make sure that if he has a reaction we can pinpoint which food caused it.

Thanks for the feedback about the coat issue. Do you notice any difference in the amount of shedding since switching? More or less? (I hope its less!)


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> He's blowing his coat. Both my dogs and my cat did this when switched to RAW.
> 
> I think he is probably throwing up because his stomach is empty. Are you feeding him the right amount, in the correct ratios?


Throwing up bile is not uncommon and means the dog's stomach has been empty for too long. Feed a little later at night and see what happens.

You might try to give something like a Canidae Snap biscuit just before bedtime.

If it doesn't stop then have the vet look at the dog.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

elle1515 said:


> He's 65 lbs and has been getting 2 lbs of chicken leg quarters per day with a little bit of organ meat which I recently started adding. He also gets a few eggs each week. I'm looking to start adding some muscle meat to his diet as well but haven't started yet. Been trying to take it really slow with what I add given our experiences with skin staph infections and hot spots in the past. I want to make sure that if he has a reaction we can pinpoint which food caused it.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback about the coat issue. Do you notice any difference in the amount of shedding since switching? More or less? (I hope its less!)


The dog does not get a full spectrum vitamin & mineral supplement?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

elle1515 said:


> He's 65 lbs and has been getting 2 lbs of chicken leg quarters per day with a little bit of organ meat which I recently started adding. He also gets a few eggs each week. I'm looking to start adding some muscle meat to his diet as well but haven't started yet. Been trying to take it really slow with what I add given our experiences with skin staph infections and hot spots in the past. I want to make sure that if he has a reaction we can pinpoint which food caused it.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback about the coat issue. Do you notice any difference in the amount of shedding since switching? More or less? (I hope its less!)


Not really. Some people do but she sheds just as much now as she did when on kibble. 

Have you added any other protein other than chicken? Just FYI, I try to feed 5 different proteins. I feed beef, pork, mackerel, sardines, venison, turkey, duck and chicken. Plus tripe, pumpkin, eggs.

If you have solidly feed chicken for a couple of weeks and have not had a problem, I would add a new meat in. I understand wanting to start slowly due to his past problems so take your time. They won't be harmed by being on a limited diet for a limited amount of time.

So you are feeding 3% of his body weight? Is he very active? You may have to adjust the amounts of food he is eating to maintain his weight. Chicken quarters are RMB's. If I feed them, I consider them 75% of the meal because they do have alot of meat on them. I feed primarily necks and backs so I figure those RMB's at 45%.

Are you feeding the eggs raw? If so, you should soft boil them first or feed the yolks and white on alternate days. There is a study that showed the avidin in the whites binds to the biotin in the yolks and it can cause a biotin deficiency. Soft boiling deactivates the avidin.


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## elle1515 (May 12, 2010)

sable123 said:


> The dog does not get a full spectrum vitamin & mineral supplement?


No--we have been slowly adding any new items to his diet because of his history of skin problems.


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## elle1515 (May 12, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Not really. Some people do but she sheds just as much now as she did when on kibble.
> 
> Have you added any other protein other than chicken? Just FYI, I try to feed 5 different proteins. I feed beef, pork, mackerel, sardines, venison, turkey, duck and chicken. Plus tripe, pumpkin, eggs.
> 
> ...



Good information about the eggs-I wasn't aware of that and will keep that in mind. I have been feeding him 3% because he was losing weight at 2.5% which we started at. He has been maintaining a very good weight at this amount, but I will monitor this to see if it needs to be adjusted. 

I will look to add a new protein this week. I hope to get him on a variety like you in the future, it's just baby steps until we are certain he has no reaction to it


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The amount will very per dog.  If he's doing good at 3% then keep him there. I take Jax to get weighed frequently so I can monitor her weight.

If Jax was having problems like your boy is, I would be doing it in baby steps also!

Are you doing anything to help boost his immune system? If he has been on antibiotics then it would be a good idea to add probiotics to his diet. I wouldn't do it with yogurt. First, because it's another possible allergy due to it being a milk product but also because yogurt will not have enough probiotics to repopulate the system.

What about vitamins to boost him system? Vit C? Fish oil for his skin? Maybe hold off on the fish until you've actually tried that protein on second thought.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Chance used to vomit bile a lot when he was younger. It had nothing to do with what he was fed but how OFTEN he was fed. I'd recommend a biscuit in the middle of the day and one before bed to keep something in the stomach.

Also on the eggs, as long as they are fed together, the yolk has enough biotin that a problem wont develop. I've only ever heard of problems when the whites are fed by it's self. :thinking:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Also on the eggs, as long as they are fed together, the yolk has enough biotin that a problem wont develop. I've only ever heard of problems when the whites are fed by it's self. :thinking:


No, that is incorrect. There is not enough biotin in yolks to overcome avidin. There is a study out there from Bayer. The eggs either need to be soft boiled or the components should be fed on different days. That gives the body time to absorb the biotin from the yolks.

I would imagine that if only the whites were fed, and the yolks discarded, that it would create a biotin deficiency.

btw...I have no idea if I'm spelling avidin correctly so don't try a search with that spelling.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> btw...I have no idea if I'm spelling avidin correctly so don't try a search with that spelling.


I took that as a challenge and googled "avidin"; it appears you are spelling it correctly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yay ME!!!!! :rofl:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the occasional raw egg will not do any harm- but you should be supplementing with B vitamins along with others....
Raw food digests pretty quickly, so you may need to feed that snack in between long stretches of mealtimes. Especially if the dog is still growing.
2# for my pup wasn't quite enough, and he still gets about 2.5# a day at almost 2 yrs old.
I would definately get going on fresh(frozen)green tripe and supplements add one at a time but they are needed soon.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Jax, do you have a link to the study? So far the only thing that I have seen is paper calculations of biotin vs. avidin. I'm not convinced the it applies to real life practical, events occuring in the digestive system applications. 

And dogs will get biotin from sources other than eggs, like liver, for example. So I don't see an issue with the egg yolk biotin being bound, unless the dog is fed raw eggs exclusively. 

(I'm not arguing - I respect everyone's opinions and thoughts on the subject - would like to hear more). I think too often we hear/read of a laboratory study with strict controls, or of nutirtional calculations done on paper (or a spread-sheet), but I'm not convinced that those results would directly translate to actual, concrete, variety based, long-term diet plans.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lucia - there is a thread on the other board about it. I'll look for it.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When I switched my Shepherds to raw (years ago) they did go through one massive coat blowing. It was as if their body was getting rid of the 'old' coat to make way for the new (and better) coat.

Now I have VERY little shedding!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Jax08 said:


> No, that is incorrect. There is not enough biotin in yolks to overcome avidin. There is a study out there from Bayer.


All I could find was this reference:

Feel Better Than Ever - egg3



> recently a subscriber, Dr. Sharma, Ph.D., who is a biochemist with Bayer, contacted me about this issue. His investigation into the matter revealed that there is not enough biotin in an egg yolk to bind to all the avidin present in the raw whites.


I've been Googling like crazy trying to find any information on this person - Dr. Sharma - and the results of his investigation and haven't found anything yet.

If anyone can find anything please post it here!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can't find the whole study. Below are some good articles. The understanding I have is that Dr. Sharma found that there was more avidin in eggs than previously thought. However, you would have to feed a lot of eggs to develop a biotin deficiency. But, and here's my thought on the matter, if you are counteracting the biotin by feeding them raw, what is the point? So soft boil them, or feed on alternate days, and get the full benefit.

Vitamin Basics: Biotin
Be an egghead: why long-forgotten egg-white protein should be a part of your supplement arsenal | Flex | Find Articles at BNET
Introduction to human nutrition - Google Books


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I still don't think an occasional egg is a big deal, or detrimental. I give my birds scrambled eggs and the dogs get it that way too.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Raw or cooked, probably no harm either way - people can go with what they are comfortable with.


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## elle1515 (May 12, 2010)

What supplements does everyone recommend and how much of each? Is there a good source to find out more information on this??


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

In regard to the bile/pukeness, since raw moves through the system so much faster (good stuff that digests quicker, not lingering fillers and other such crap) they tend to have an empty stomach faster. Sometimes this happens during the first adjustment period, but can be overcome with a treat or something before bedtime.

IMHO, an occasional raw WHOLE egg isn't a big deal. Mine get maybe one a week. 

As far as supps, mine get 2000mg salmon oil, 400iu vit E, Ester C (mainly for joint health) and Longevity by Springtime.


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