# Questions on Breeder Contracts



## Gautama (Sep 17, 2015)

Hello, as I mentioned in an earlier post, our family is very interested in buying a German Shepherd. We definitely want to work with a reputable and established breeder, which of course means paying more up front, but with the upside being less uncertainty with regard to health, temperament, and conformance. 

But as I've gotten deeper into this and have been reading contracts, some of the things I'm seeing really seem odd, and I'm curious whether these things are just standards, or whether I might find breeders that differ? A few of the types of things I'm seeing that seem odd as a newcomer to this world:


Hips only guaranteed if proven to be strictly due to genetic causes. Isn't this very difficult to prove? Would seem that it's nearly always a combination of genetics and environmental factors, so actually making a warranty claim would be next to impossible if the breeder didn't want to honor it. 
Non-refundable deposits, even if dog can't be delivered from the selected litter. If I've chosen a breeder because I like the specific pedigree of that litter, why would I agree to accepting a dog from another litter/pedigree at the owner's discretion? This seems crazy to me - I would want the option to have my money back.
Changes to warranty based on when dog is spayed or neutered. I kind of get this one given the data on early spaying/neutering, but it's not exactly a confidence builder. I would expect a more secure assurance of hip health, even if the dog is neutered.
 Voiding of warranty if dog's name is changed. I'm sure there's a good reason for this, but again, seems odd.
Warranty only providing a replacement dog. This is similar to the second bullet. If one has selected a breeder in part due to the pedigree of a specific litter, why would they then accept a replacement dog of different pedigree at the owner's discretion in a warranty situation? As an newcomer, this seems really strange to me.

To be clear, I'm not trying to criticize any breeders or the market, I just want to be sure I understand which of these things, if any, might be breeder specific and worth continuing the search if they concern me, vs. which just kind of go with the territory and that I'll just need to accept. It does very much seem like a seller's market, with very little to instill confidence in the buyer.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Go with a breeder whose dogs and contract you like and makes sense to you. For me personally, the longer the contract, the less I like it. A good personal relationship with a breeder is better than just a contract IMHO.


----------



## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Gautama said:


> [*]Warranty only providing a replacement dog. This is similar to the second bullet. If one has selected a breeder in part due to the pedigree of a specific litter, why would they then accept a replacement dog of different pedigree at the owner's discretion in a warranty situation? As an newcomer, this seems really strange to me.


My breeder had this in the contract. Ridiculous IMO, but it is what it is. Pretty common. Non-refundable deposits are also silly & I agree that in many cases that doesn't make sense, but also quite common. 

Make the best of it.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

For my new pup I have to pay a deposit and if I don't click with any of the pups I get the money back. I like to have that freedom. It is as simple as that. A breeder should be happy if you are honest instead of taking a pup to prevent a financial loss. If the breeder is so worried that you back out, than maybe his pups are not in that high of a demand.


----------



## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

Hi Gautama. I can shed some like on each of your bullet points. 

1. Hips can never be absolutely guaranteed to be free of CHD (canine hip dysplasia), even if both parents have excellent hips. Hips are combination of food, genetics, and wear. At 8 weeks, nobody can tell you this dog will have CHD. It's a roll of the dice. 
Now, if you find a really good breeder, chances are they don't have a huge operation going (I would personally stay away from mass breeding projects). Great breeders breed out of passion and love for the breed. For an owner to return a dog because of CHD is unfair to them. Why? Because chances are it's not crippling. Chances are that you won't be able to tell the dog has CHD without x-rays. And chances are that food and environment could have played a roll. On top of that, they did EVERYTHING they could to prevent it. To return a dog after a couple years because of something that is out of the breeder's control... it's a huge blow to the breeder. If the dog has crippling CHD early on, that's a genetic defect and I think every legitimate breeder will replace that dog because the dog will have no quality of life going forward. 
If you want guarantees on hips, go to a mass breeder that's pumping out multiple litters a month and making millions of dollars because they can afford to replace the dog. At the end of the day, the dog is much more than hips. People are hip obsessed and compromising temperament for hips. Feed the dog well, take care of them and you should be fine with any legit breeder with sound breed technique. 

2. Deposits are non refundable because they are turning down other offers to hold the pup you have reserved with a deposit. You are taking money out of their pockets and putting them in a bad position when you can't pick up the pup at 8 weeks old. The longer the pup is on the market, the harder it is to sell. Holding on to the pup costs food and space. Consider that. 

3. It's like me buying a car and returning it to you a couple years later because of mechanical issues but you're returning it without wheels. I've seen dogs returned with "CDH" in early adolescence. X-rays at a year showed the dog was just developing and actually had normal hips/elbows. If that dog was returned fixed, it would make it a lot harder for the breeder to resell the dog. And again, the dog costs food and space. 

4. Changing the registered name that the kennel provided is a crime IMO. It's like taking a can of Pepsi and changing it to your own custom cola company called ColaX, then returning it to Pepsi with the name ColaX. How is Pepsi gonna put one ColaX out on the market when it doesn't hold their branding. It'd be **** hard because buyers would see that someone returned the dog and they immediately will think something's wrong with the dog. A huge majority of the time, a dog is returned not at the dog's fault but at the owners fault because they are irresponsible. 

5. Because most good breeders do it out of passion/hobby, they can't afford to give you cash back. The cash they get goes back into their dogs. 

Overall, you need to understand that breeders need to be protected from irresponsible Owners. If they do the best they possible can, why is it is fair for them to bite the bullet? These aren't meals at a restaurant that you can just send back to the chef and get another. Owners give up on dogs too early. It's cruel how they dispose of their dog or find fault because they don't like color, or they don't think dog is pretty, or they weren't responsible with care for hips, diet, training... and the dog is now something they don't value. A huge majority of the time, Owners are returning dogs that they screwed up. And the little breeder who loves their dogs, needs to absorb the Owner's negligence, home the poor dog that they still love, and pay out of their pocket to feed and house it till they can find a forever home. In this situation, they lose money at the end of the day. 

If I was you, I'd find a breeder who you like. A person who you think has sound breeding technique, a breeder who loves his dogs and is doing everything they can to ensure the highest quality. Then I would get that dog and not let it go, no matter what happens. THIS is fair.


----------



## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

BallsofMeat said:


> 1. Hips can never be absolutely guaranteed to be free of CHD (canine hip dysplasia), even if both parents have excellent hips. Hips are combination of food, genetics, and wear. At 8 weeks, nobody can tell you this dog will have CHD. It's a roll of the dice.


I completely agree that you can't guarantee genetics. But given this fact, I don't think breeders should attempt to provide any guarantees. The whole point of providing a guarantee is peace of mind for the buyer - it's a selling point. Not standing behind it 100% is marketing something you have no capacity to provide - fraud, as far as I'm concerned.

IMO breeders should provide a reasonable background of parents/other litters and explain that the chance of HD is low, but always possible. If a breeder goes as far as to _guarantee_ anything, then that needs to be 100% money back to the buyer - at a minimum. Otherwise it's really not a guarantee at all.



BallsofMeat said:


> 2. Deposits are non refundable because they are turning down other offers to hold the pup you have reserved with a deposit. You are taking money out of their pockets and putting them in a bad position when you can't pick up the pup at 8 weeks old. The longer the pup is on the market, the harder it is to sell. Holding on to the pup costs food and space. Consider that.


If the buyer _chooses_ not to take the pup, then of course, the deposit is forfeit. After all, that's the whole point of the deposit. OP is asking about a very different scenario, one where the breeder does not deliver/provide a pup from the agreed-upon litter. 

To take your car analogy, this is putting a deposit on a 2015 model, then being told that the dealership is all out, and instead you'll be provided a different 2016 model. Not at all what you provided the deposit for!

If the breeder cannot provide a pup from the agreed-upon litter, I think the deposit needs to be immediately returned. 



BallsofMeat said:


> 4. Changing the registered name that the kennel provided is a crime IMO. It's like taking a can of Pepsi and changing it to your own custom cola company called ColaX, then returning it to Pepsi with the name ColaX. How is Pepsi gonna put one ColaX out on the market when it doesn't hold their branding. It'd be **** hard because buyers would see that someone returned the dog and they immediately will think something's wrong with the dog. A huge majority of the time, a dog is returned not at the dog's fault but at the owners fault because they are irresponsible.


If you are showing the dog, or otherwise putting it "out there" in a big way, I can see the name being important. At this level it is marketing for the breeder.

However, not being able to change your "personal" dog's name is outright ridiculous. My dog comes from a local breeder (Woodside German Shepherds), and her official name is "Woodside's Liza". I've never called her that, nor will I ever. To me and to everyone we interact with, her name is Liza. If someday I decide to call her something else, that's entirely my decision.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

See comments within quote - if it worked!!! 


Gautama said:


> Hello, as I mentioned in an earlier post, our family is very interested in buying a German Shepherd. We definitely want to work with a reputable and established breeder, which of course means paying more up front, but with the upside being less uncertainty with regard to health, temperament, and conformance.
> 
> But as I've gotten deeper into this and have been reading contracts, some of the things I'm seeing really seem odd, and I'm curious whether these things are just standards, or whether I might find breeders that differ? A few of the types of things I'm seeing that seem odd as a newcomer to this world:
> 
> ...


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, genetic vs environmental hip issues can often be easy to differentiate. 
I'm on many breeder groups and here is an example of why the hip guarantee is worded that way - "Just received an email from *puppy's* new owner saying what a great jogging partner she is! She's only 3 months old and they've been taking her on 2+ mile RUNS every day. " Or buyers who have their pups doing agility, repeated jumping off or over heights, etc. 
Then, when the pup comes up with hip issues, they immediately blame the breeder.

non-refundable deposits. Almost every breeder has them. It's to protect themselves against buyers who, when it's time to pick up the pup at 8 weeks says "oh we bought a different dog last week. we don't want your pup" 
Most breeders, if you are the one who backs out, won't return your deposit but will usually let you move it to another litter. Many will work with you depending on the circumstances of why you are backing out. They aren't heartless.
If there simply isn't a puppy in the litter that is a good match for you, many will move the deposit to another litter of your choice. 

spay/neuter is linked to numerous health issues including ACL tears and possible joint development issues. So, yes, many breeders are now saying if you neuter before maturity the warranty is voided. But, again, many will work with you depending on the actual circumstances which you should discuss with them before you buy. It's about protecting the dog, not you. Many vets still push for neutering early and the only "threat" that the breeder can hold over your head is "I'll void the warranty if you do"

I've never heard of the name changing clause but it's likely coming from a breeder who has been screwed over by a client on that issue in the past. When a dog is registered with a certain kennel name, it reflects back on the breeder. Changing the name takes that recognition away from the breeder. Many will allow you to register with your kennel name instead for an extra fee, especially if you are a breeder and competitor.


----------



## Gautama (Sep 17, 2015)

Thanks everyone, some great responses and food for thought. Sounds like these things are for the most part just practical realities of the market rather than breeder specific quirks. That was my main concern, I wanted to make sure I was reviewing the contracts through the right len. Doesn't sound like hip or other types of "guarantees" really exist, so the name of the game is to find a buyer you trust based on reputation when things go well AND when problems may have arisen in the past. 

One quick point of clarification - I was definitely referring to the specific situation where a puppy was not delivered from the specified litter and the breeder reserves the right to keep the deposit and provide a dog from a future litter and an unspecified point in time. In my mind that's a pretty significant red flag, and kind of a non-starter. Sounds like it may not be something that is standard practice, so that's great to know!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I missed that part of your post......

I don't take deposits until the litter is close or actually here.....and I don't cash them until I know I have the right number of males/females for reservations....

I would NEVER push someone to take a puppy from a litter they weren't interested in....I want the pup and the people to be a good match and be happy!

Lee


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't have a lot to add as I think most things were covered well. When they are talking about not changing the name, they are talking about the registered name. Not the call name. You're welcome to call the dog whatever you want, but on paper it must be what the breeder says. It causes no issue as the dogs only learn the name they are taught.

I think most important is to find a breeder you trust. One who will give you support when you need it. As others said, puppies are a crap shoot. Unfortunately, I've been in a position where I went to a reputable breeder and still received a puppy with a genetic issue. What I can tell is this. Within minutes of my email, that breeder was on the phone with me in tears discussing what we were going to do. What was best for the dog. This breeder stood behind what they produced. We decided to replace the dog. I had purchased the dog with something specific in mind that this puppy was no longer capable of. The breeder for about a year stayed in contact with me offering me green dogs they had or a puppy from another litter they had. I decided to hold off until a litter I really liked popped up. Without hesitation they sent me a puppy from that litter and I couldn't be happier. I have two dogs from this breeder and will continue to work with them in the future.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I
> 
> I think most important is to find a breeder you trust. One who will give you support when you need it. As others said, puppies are a crap shoot. Unfortunately, I've been in a position where I went to a reputable breeder and still received a puppy with a genetic issue. What I can tell is this. Within minutes of my email, that breeder was on the phone with me in tears discussing what we were going to do. What was best for the dog. This breeder stood behind what they produced. We decided to replace the dog. I had purchased the dog with something specific in mind that this puppy was no longer capable of. The breeder for about a year stayed in contact with me offering me green dogs they had or a puppy from another litter they had. I decided to hold off until a litter I really liked popped up. Without hesitation they sent me a puppy from that litter and I couldn't be happier. I have two dogs from this breeder and will continue to work with them in the future.


I had to give DDog back due to Elbow Dysplacia and now I have his litter sister as a replacement. He had her x rayed to make sure she was sound and gave her to me. She is super healthy. It was a tough experience but now we are all happy. I would go back in a heart beat for a new pup. This breeder doesn't work with contracts at all.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is no such thing as a hip guaranty. 

The whole concept is pretty ridiculous. I suppose that because it is expected here in the US, people do it. Some of those people make their guaranties as ridiculous as the whole concept.

We have to understand that these are living breathing creatures that are going to, at some point, acquire something that directly leads to its demise. Or it will die by accident. But the critter isn't going to live forever, and it isn't going to be free of any condition, genetic or otherwise. This should be understood, by the nature of living things.

Buying from a good breeder doesn't guaranty you a dog that drops dead at 15 years from old age, with never a hiccup before then. 

Some things the Germans have right.


----------



## Gautama (Sep 17, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> I don't have a lot to add as I think most things were covered well. When they are talking about not changing the name, they are talking about the registered name. Not the call name. You're welcome to call the dog whatever you want, but on paper it must be what the breeder says. It causes no issue as the dogs only learn the name they are taught.


Ah, that makes perfect sense to me, I just wasn't thinking it through. Can imagine it could also create a great deal of confusion in the community as well, trying to track the outcomes of breeding programs. 




mycobraracr said:


> I think most important is to find a breeder you trust. One who will give you support when you need it. As others said, puppies are a crap shoot. Unfortunately, I've been in a position where I went to a reputable breeder and still received a puppy with a genetic issue. What I can tell is this. Within minutes of my email, that breeder was on the phone with me in tears discussing what we were going to do. What was best for the dog. This breeder stood behind what they produced.


This is very reassuring, thank you! It's interesting to me is that in all the reading and research I've done, I just haven't come across many horror stories at all. That was why I was kind of surprised by these contracts that don't seem to offer any real protection for the buyer. It does seem that your experience must be the norm with honest breeders, and that the contracts are there to protect them from unfair buyers who might want to exploit the process. As always, I suppose the best advice is to do your homework and find someone you truly trust.

This is a great site btw - if I didn't have access to all the stuff I've read in old posts, etc here, I probably would have ruled out GSDs fairly early on. It's definitely an intimidating world to walk into!


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> There is no such thing as a hip guaranty.
> 
> The whole concept is pretty ridiculous. I suppose that because it is expected here in the US, people do it. Some of those people make their guaranties as ridiculous as the whole concept.



From my contract -- not US, but Canada:

"Dog shall be guaranteed against hip dysplasia providing that the purchaser xrays them at 8 – 12 month of age and certifies the hips with PennHIP evaluation, or at 18 – 24 months of age and certifies the hips with the OFA or OVC. 

If there is radiographic evidence of hip dysplasia, making the dog unsuitable as a pet, then the dog must be returned to the breeder, or the dog may be kept for as long as it is comfortable, and the dog will be replaced with another German Shepherd puppy from Narnia Kennels. If the purchaser chooses not to have the hips xrayed, at 24 months of age, the guarantee for hip dysplasia shall expire and the vendor has no further obligations to the purchaser."


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Gautama said:


> Ah, that makes perfect sense to me, I just wasn't thinking it through. Can imagine it could also create a great deal of confusion in the community as well, trying to track the outcomes of breeding programs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You got it! The names help us as buyers/breeders keep track and follow programs. 

Exactly, the contracts are there to give a warm and fuzzy to the buyer, but also to protect the breeder from the buyer. At the end of the day the contract is only as good as the breeder behind them. So research, and find an honest ethical breeder. I can't emphasize that enough. 

If you want help looking for breeders, there are some great ones on this forum as well as others. All you have to do is start a thread and describe exactly the type of dog you're looking for. Then the recommendations will start coming in. Then it's up to you to talk to the breeders that stand out to you and decide for yourself who you feel the most comfortable with.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> From my contract -- not US, but Canada:
> 
> "Dog shall be guaranteed against hip dysplasia providing that the purchaser xrays them at 8 – 12 month of age and certifies the hips with PennHIP evaluation, or at 18 – 24 months of age and certifies the hips with the OFA or OVC.
> 
> If there is radiographic evidence of hip dysplasia, making the dog unsuitable as a pet, then the dog must be returned to the breeder, or the dog may be kept for as long as it is comfortable, and the dog will be replaced with another German Shepherd puppy from Narnia Kennels. If the purchaser chooses not to have the hips xrayed, at 24 months of age, the guarantee for hip dysplasia shall expire and the vendor has no further obligations to the purchaser."



That's not a guaranty, it's a warranty. You cannot guaranty an 8 week old pup is free of HD. Sorry, but it is impossible. You cannot guaranty something and then qualify your guaranty with what happens if it is not. That no longer is a guaranty. 

I can guaranty you that many people with hip guaranties end up with dog with hip dysplasia. The guaranty did not work. It wasn't a guaranty, it was a warranty. Because we are not gods and we cannot make hips pass. Not possible. Sorry. 

We pretend that we here on this site are the elite. Well, we ought to understand that HD can happen in the best of lines. If we see that our breeder has done the right things, and made choices to limit the incidents of HD, and it still happens, why should this breeder take a hit? 

Usually breeders require the dog back. Ok, you want to make me pay for an act of nature, then fine, I will give you your money back. Give me the dog back and I will euthanize it. How many people can live with a dog for two years, and give it back the breeder who is going to euthanize it? Not many. So the better breeders will have wording like the above -- you can keep your dog, provide evidence, and we will replace the pup. But, in that one the dog has to be proven unsuitable to be a pet? In whose opinion is that? Most dogs with HD are not so bad as that. Whatever. 

It isn't a guaranty. It's a warranty. We provide a warranty on the hips and elbows, and allow people to keep their dog, that they are already attached to, and for that, we are the only ones that ever have to replace a dog with HD. The rest of the breeders out there offer no warranty, or put so much crap in their warranty, that it is impossible to prove that you did your part, or they require the dog be returned, even though they have no use for it, and to rehome it is just trouble, and likely a headache from whoever they give it to, even if they give the dog away with full disclosure about the condition, so they will most likely euthanize the dog and some of them will tell you so, probably in a last ditch effort to work on whatever pity for the dog you might have.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The contract is for both the breeder and the buyer. If you do not feel comfortable with a contract, then do not sign it.

A good contract has requirements for both the breeder AND the buyer. A lot of times, the buyer overlooks those requirements or wants to change the contract, when the dog is older.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with finding a breeder you trust. Chances are, if you find a reputable breeder with good quality dogs, someone that is active and trusted in the GSD community, you won't need to agonize over each clause in the contract (if there is one).


----------

