# Looking for a Breeder in Florida, please take a look at the link



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Hello, 

My husband grew up with flat back shepherds that lived 12 years +
We are now looking for a new puppy and are not sure what direction to go because the breed has changed so much. We are finding dogs with a slight sloped back. Does this hurt them? or limit working/playing ability?

We could really use feedback. We want a dog that will be for family mostly, but we are very outdoorsy and want him to go with us on the river, beach, parks etc... and maybe joining a local clubs to do training and some games. 

What is your opinion on this? we are not experts on reading pedigree:
German Shepherds - Home

Sire - German Shepherds

Breeder seams awesome and caring for the dogs and has a 6 year generation hip and DNA certificates. 

Thank you so much!!!


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't even know where to start... :-(

Find a breeder that does something with their breeding stock, does health testing, posts proper information and doesn't just have two dogs that they breed together and charge you $1500 for!

Sorry, I hate when I see people selling puppies this way!


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

It could be that the website is just poorly set up. OP, are the dogs that are actually being breed doing anything? It is great that they have a six generation pedigree of dogs that have been health tested and worked in some way. But unless the dogs being bred have also been worked in some venue that has provided an objective opinion regarding their overall quality, a pedigree full of competitive dogs doesn't mean that these two dogs should be bred. 

What does the breeder say about the choices made regarding these two dogs? There needs to be something more than just "successful and healthy" dogs in the pedigree. 
Sheilah


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Little River Canine - Betty Mathena - board member - does PP training and breeds for stability.....

look her up.....

Lee


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

ahh thank you so much for the feedback so far. 

I was told that they are show dogs with grandparents from Germany and that they want to keep German bloodlines. The dogs are AKC and they are currently applying for membership at the united shutzhund club in Tampa. And they invited me to come over to see the friendly temperament for myself and meet the parents and pups. 

My husband is visiting today and I will go on Saturday. My first concern was the back because we lack experienced with this type of a GSD.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not flat backed , the sire has a poor front - seen in the top row where the dog is just sitting -- then who is the dog 4th , 5th , 6th from bottom - could use better condition , better muscle and tone , then on picture 3 from bottom you can see curve in back. 
Same to be said of female -- just lacking something , some spark of "life" -- both sire and dam to the tail wrap when stacked - I know some dogs don't like to hold the position -- but tail wrapping mmmm confidence problem not totally secure? There's no muscle in the thigh. Picture #20 of dam sitting -- poor , short upper arm , and feet flat as a pancake . Look to where the two, male and female are sitting together , both are shifted onto a hip (right flank) because they can't get their front in underneath them, curve in back , no flexibility there . uhh male also has bad feet - long and flat . bottom of page where dog is sitting you can see she is sitting on her bum not on her hock so this time pelvis shifted forward instead of tuck to the side.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs contact her. She has been involved with GSD's for years and trains in a wide variety of performance events.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In one of the older GSD Review magazines which I sent to Bethany 12/12/12 -- there is a picture of an American bred Ch and SchH 3 dog -- from "american" lines not recent import stock. Actually there WERE some good working dogs in the American bred lines in the mid to late 70's , earliest 80s . I delayed sending the magazines out because I was spending so much time re-reading some of the articles -- which stressed working and FRONT angulation , balance. As time went on the extreme rears and side-gait won out -- Bethany will see , maybe she can comment . (and find the dog with the titles on both ends)


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

with the right software - anyone can produce a 10 to 20 generation of any registered dog....it means nothing that they have this.....these dogs look like a pair of pets and have nothing to indicate that they should be breeding stock....please do yourself a favor and look beyond the fact that they are "nice pets"....there is so so so much more to it - and there are thousands of 'nice pet' type GSDs being put down in this country daily that were produced by greedy/irresponsible/ignorant people who had "nice pets"...

For $1500 you can find pups from parents which have some type of credentials to indicate they are of a quality to be bred.

Lee


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

My husband visited the breeder today. There are 2 adult dogs and they are 2 years old. The puppies and parents were in a good shape and well taken care off. One thing that my husband liked is the intelligence and temperament of the parents. We are looking for a friendly dog since we plan on taking it with us everywhere. These dogs were great with him, listened to command in both English and German. Just friendly and obedient. I think the puppies are $1,000 for limited registration, but i am torn if this is going to be a great pet or keep looking... 

The breeder seemed to know allot about the breed and sounded like he really cares for the dogs. They did not look like they have too much funds so they are using the money from the puppies to further advance the dogs and join clubs and activities. 

All the the feedback you have provided is great so far and we really appreciate it =)


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

so they have two pet dogs that have not a single title/health test between them and they want to charge you $1000 for a puppy?? Wow - what a racket!

The reason breeders charge $ for dogs is because it takes $ to breed properly. I think (I am new here) there is a rule against breeder bashing here, but THINK about what you are buying when you pay $ for a puppy!! 

Here are two articles that may open your eyes... (PLEASE don't support Backyard breeders!!) - there are SO many breeders out there doing it RIGHT!

You Get What You Pay For

and

But I Just Want A Pet


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Lee(both Lee's!)....I didn't look at their website, though did read everyone's comments. 
There is another link from here to read while you are researching which breeder to support: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Neko said:


> They did not look like they have too much funds so they are using the money from the puppies to further advance the dogs and join clubs and activities.


If this is the case, they are doing it backwards. They should be doing the training and "advancement" of the dogs BEFORE they breed them, not after. As was mentioned previously, these two dogs can have nothing but champions in every generation behind them and that still doesn't mean _*they *_should be bred. Training the dogs and competing them in some venue that provides an objective opinion on their quality is the way to prove they are worthy of being reproduced.

It would be such a sad thing for someone to pay a hefty price tag for a puppy, only to find out down the road that these two dogs have horrible hips that they are passing on to their pups, or wonky stomachs or dicey temperaments. At just two years of age, both these dogs could still be great big puppies themselves. I know my own dog didn't really start to shed his puppyhood until he was past his third birthday.

That is a lot of money and bringing a puppy into your home is hopefully a 12+ year commitment. Stack the deck in your favor and give your money to a breeder that isn't learning on your dime. There are good breeders out there and for that price you could give your business to them.
Sheilah


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I agree with all of you and greatly appreciate all the feedback.
I am so glad that I found this forum. 

We are going to hold and do more research and visit more kennels before making this huge decision. 

Thank you so much,


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

If the dogs have a great temperament and are health tested, who cares about the titles? The OP has not indicated she wants a high drive dog to compete with. She wants a family pet. 

I don't see anything wrong with this person breeding to dogs with great temperament that are well trained, just because they don't title them.

Titling a dog does not make it a better dog. No one on this board has met these dogs, except the OP, and one or both of these dogs could possibly title if their owner wanted to.

Maybe it just isn't the owners hobby. I honestly feel like titling is a hobby/lifestyle for people who want extra to do with their dogs.

How does anyone on this board know from that vague website whether the dogs do herding or agility with their owners?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

sit said:


> If this is the case, they are doing it backwards. They should be doing the training and "advancement" of the dogs BEFORE they breed them, not after. As was mentioned previously, these two dogs can have nothing but champions in every generation behind them and that still doesn't mean _*they *_should be bred. Training the dogs and competing them in some venue that provides an objective opinion on their quality is the way to prove they are worthy of being reproduced.


I have never understood this idea that the parents must be titled to be bred. Do you consider a CGC a title? What about agility titles?

I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding, not the dogs that did the best job biting a sleeve on someone's arm.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding - exactly , and that is how their ability was PROVEN and valuable . 
"How does anyone on this board know from that vague website whether the dogs do herding or agility with their owners" -- because it IS vague , had they or their dogs been doing something , anything, herding , or otherwise it would have been front and center .


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I have never understood this idea that the parents must be titled to be bred. Do you consider a CGC a title? What about agility titles?
> 
> I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding, not the dogs that did the best job biting a sleeve on someone's arm.


Then I guess we should just trust everybody who has a "healthy" dog that tells us that their dog has an "upstanding temperament", right? There's definitely no need for outside evaluation through some sort of breed testing association, right? I love my dog and I think he has a great temperament. I think he's "the best" at being a normal pet dog. Plus he's healthy, so I should just breed him now, right?

Agility titles, Schutzhund titles, herding titles...they all take extensive training. A CGC does not. They aren't even comparable. Somebody who cares enough to prove their dog's worth and put all the time and money into the training is someone who actually gives a crap about bettering the breed, and may just end up with a dog worth breeding. Someone who just says "Hey, my dog is really sweet and doesn't have hip dysplasia," definitely has no business doing it.


----------



## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If the dogs have a great temperament and are health tested, who cares about the titles? The OP has not indicated she wants a high drive dog to compete with. She wants a family pet.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with this person breeding to dogs with great temperament that are well trained, just because they don't title them.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said this better myself. My dog doesn't have a huge fancy pedigree or special lines..but he's a very happy and healthy dog with a great temperament. He has lots of love to give and goes everywhere with me. I don't use him for any competitive trials, so I never saw a point of fancy names and achievements on a piece if paper.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> Then I guess we should just trust everybody who has a "healthy" dog that tells us that their dog has an "upstanding temperament", right? There's definitely no need for outside evaluation through some sort of breed testing association, right? I love my dog and I think he has a great temperament. I think he's "the best" at being a normal pet dog. Plus he's healthy, so I should just breed him now, right?
> 
> Agility titles, Schutzhund titles, herding titles...they all take extensive training. A CGC does not. They aren't even comparable. Somebody who cares enough to prove their dog's worth and put all the time and money into the training is someone who actually gives a crap about bettering the breed, and may just end up with a dog worth breeding. Someone who just says "Hey, my dog is really sweet and doesn't have hip dysplasia," definitely has no business doing it.


I gues I wonder how you determine whether someone has any business doing something-and if a dog doesn't have titles that means the owner doesn't care-nope not even a little bit-


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

holland said:


> I gues I wonder how you determine whether someone has any business doing something-and if a dog doesn't have titles that means the owner doesn't care-nope not even a little bit-


That's not what I said. I said that someone who breeds a dog just because they think it's a good dog, without any outside evaluation isn't bettering the breed. And someone who puts the amount of time and money into training/titling as a means of proof for breeding purposes shows dedication and that they truly care.



GatorDog said:


> Then I guess we should just trust everybody who has a "healthy" dog that tells us that their dog has an "upstanding temperament", right? There's definitely no need for outside evaluation through some sort of breed testing association, right? I love my dog and I think he has a great temperament. I think he's "the best" at being a normal pet dog. Plus he's healthy, so I should just breed him now, right?
> 
> Agility titles, Schutzhund titles, herding titles...they all take extensive training. A CGC does not. They aren't even comparable. Somebody who cares enough to prove their dog's worth and put all the time and money into the training is someone who actually gives a crap about bettering the breed, and may just end up with a dog worth breeding. Someone who just says "Hey, my dog is really sweet and doesn't have hip dysplasia," definitely has no business doing it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We have had this argument over and over and over. Not sure why someone felt the need to hi-jack the OP's thread to argue especially from people who own poorly bred dogs from BYB. 

Here is my opinion....

I like to see titles because it gives some sense of what the dogs are capable of. That is one piece of the puzzle. If there are no titles, are they working dogs? A breeder can breed dog, never title any but the dogs are bred to work and are proven to work. I want to hear more from the breeder other than "my dog has a great personality and can hold down a couch like no other while kissing your nose". But again...it's only one piece to the puzzle.


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I have never understood this idea that the parents must be titled to be bred. Do you consider a CGC a title? What about agility titles?


No, I don't believe CGC was ever intended to be seen as a title and, unless they beef up the requirements to get the certificate, I don't believe it should be. That is just my opinion and I am well aware of the fact that AKC is making it a "title" next year.

When I say that there should be "Training the dogs and competing them in some venue that provides an objective opinion on their quality", I meant just that. Yes, an agility title is a title. And obedience title is a title. A conformation championship is a "title". A successful working dog has a "title" just by the fact of doing the work day in and day out and being good at it. A herding title is also a valid performance based assessment of a dog's skill in that area. A schutzhund title counts as well (although I have seen my fair share of ScH I imported bitches that make me question the validity of their title). It doesn't matter where it comes from, as long as it is valid and it came from an objective third party. Something that says that animal excels at that activity

The fact that I believe there are many valid titles a dog can win that would help prove that dog's worthiness to reproduce should be evident in the fact that I never used the word "schutzhund" in any of my comments. Saying "some venue" means just that.

Without an objective opinion from a knowledgeable person, a judge who matches performance to a preconceived set of criteria, a dog's ability would only be based on what the owner/breeder says it is. This dog is a herder that doesn't stop? Prove it. Show me the dog working or show me the proof the dog meets certain performance criteria (a "title"). Same with any other activity. A title is nothing more than proof that the owner/ breeder can walk the talk. 

You say this dog has perfect conformation? Prove it with someone's objective opinion. You say this dog has good hips and normal elbows? Let me see the objective opinion of someone who is charged with making the professional call. 

I can say whatever I want about my dog. Saying it, without being able to back it up with performance, means nothing.
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding, not the dogs that did the best job biting a sleeve on someone's arm.


Again, you are confusing "title" with "schutzhund". They are not mutually inclusive. A title can be in schutzhund. Of course it can, obviously. But a title can ALSO be in many other venues, not just schutzhund.

A sheep herder in Germany is NOT going to keep a dog that doesn't work. So the very fact that the dog is continuing to work is a "title" of sorts. After all, the sheep herder is trusting his livelihood to the dog's working ability. That is a "title of trust", don't you think? Not to mention that at least some of those working dogs might also be trialed for the fun of it.
Sheilah


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Great posts, Sheilah!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Neko said:


> I agree with all of you and greatly appreciate all the feedback.
> I am so glad that I found this forum.
> 
> We are going to hold and do more research and visit more kennels before making this huge decision.
> ...


Good choice. Please study all you can in the meantime and don't be afraid to ask this board's opinion of a breeder. We can't "breeder bash" but we can PM and we can give personal experiences (at times). 

Carmen noted and mentioned this particular breeder's dogs, and I agree, a few of those photos really show that the male in particular has something weird going on with his stance and body.

People will "poo poo" at times, conformation showing/titling, but what good conformation does for a dog is give it the ability to move and grow without defects. Poor conformation can lead to joint issues as the dog grows and ages. So dogs that are conformationally correct are less likely to have hip and elbow issues, and other abnormalities and injuries that can occur. 
A "straight back" for instance, isn't necessarily good thing, it could potentially be detrimental do the dog's movement and performance.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding, not the dogs that did the best job biting a sleeve on someone's arm.


Oh, and for the record, there's quite a bit more that goes into a Schutzhund title than "biting a sleeve on someone's arm."


Lol, if it were only that easy..


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Well I wonder if I should make a new post now that we are back to square 1.

We want to look at a few breeders in FL or GA. Any recommendations will be great, if it has to be a PM that will work too. 

I guess it would be great to hear from someone who already has a puppy/dog from a Kennel they recommend. 

I am new to the forum and learning my way around it, I will search previous posts as well. 

Thanks everyone!


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Neko said:


> Well I wonder if I should make a new post now that we are back to square 1.
> 
> We want to look at a few breeders in FL or GA. Any recommendations will be great, if it has to be a PM that will work too.
> 
> ...


An agility friend of mine just had a litter (they are in GA). I think he said they MAY have one or two available. I love his dogs! They have great temperament and working ability. If I was looking for a puppy, I'd get one from him in a heartbeat
I don't see the litter on their website, but the site has their contact info as well as info on the dogs (the dam is Fraulein (schutzhund titled dog), not sure which sire-if it's their dog Extreme, he is just awesome (agility dog, just got his MACH-agility champion title)!:
Vom KiaHaus - Home

I have also heard great things about Betty (Little River Canine) in Florida.


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

FIRST get proof of hips/elbow certification. This is absolute minimum!!! Also remember almost all dogs are confident and stable on home territory, ask t see the parents elsewhere. This is one of the reason people work/train their dogs. All dogs listen at home with no outside pressure. Take the dog out and see if passing animals are safe, how it is with kids, bikes, loud unexpected noises. Nothing worse than rearing and loving a dog who is afraid of thunder, kids, dogs, etc...Good luck, there are great dogs in all types, but you must do your research. Remember this will be family for 10+ years, adn you must live with it, so put in the research!!!


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

trudy said:


> FIRST get proof of hips/elbow certification. This is absolute minimum!!! Also remember almost all dogs are confident and stable on home territory, ask t see the parents elsewhere. This is one of the reason people work/train their dogs. All dogs listen at home with no outside pressure. Take the dog out and see if passing animals are safe, how it is with kids, bikes, loud unexpected noises. Nothing worse than rearing and loving a dog who is afraid of thunder, kids, dogs, etc...Good luck, there are great dogs in all types, but you must do your research. Remember this will be family for 10+ years, adn you must live with it, so put in the research!!!



I have been posting updates here: 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/196359-looking-breeder-florida-georgia.html

Our research is backfiring a little...


----------

