# Some interesting reading on PennHIP



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The points I wish to discuss in this thread:


> 2. The distraction index does not change significantly over time.
> 
> A study of large breed dogs showed that the distraction index stayed the same over time (within acceptable statistical limits) and was much more reliable over time than other methods such as the Norberg angle and the OFA scoring method.
> 
> ...


number 2 was interesting simply because everyone rushes to do OFA at 2 years of age "hurry, get the hips xray'ed"

number 5 was a jaw dropper for me... so "normal" ofa hips can be actually bad... not good news.

considering 9 and how bad positioning can make a "good" hipped dog look "poor"... the fact that you can take 2 films of the same dog, the same day, one less well positioned, and get an "excellent" on one and a "fair" on another is a big issue... if the test were ideal you should get "excellent" on one, and "inconclusive, reshoot" on the other.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Really, not interesting to anyone but me?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

5. OK, maybe, but...."hip osteoarthritis" is not "hip dysplasia", right? So it's not all that earth-shattering that if you take an OFA x-ray and submit to OFA for an OFA rating regarding hip dysplasia, they aren't going to give you a full analysis of whether your dog may develop arthritis.

I had my mutt x-rayed when he was 4 years old, did not send results to OFA but trust my vet and we both agreed he does *not* have HD, but he probably *will* develop arthritis as he ages. When I have a vet or specialist look at a dog's hips I'm not just trying to position them such that we get the top rating we can, I really want to know! If there is laxity, or the joint is not completely smooth and they might develop arthritis over time, that's important for me to know and that's why I'm paying someone to take the pictures and "read" them for me, not just so I can say "Oh he's OFA Good" and never think about it again. People who really push PennHip seem to have this assumption that those who use OFA or a-stamp only care about getting a passing rating. Maybe that's true for some but most people I know really want to know about their dogs' structure and what it means for the future, not just breeding but for the dogs' activity levels and what sorts of training is appropriate.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> 5. OK, maybe, but...."hip osteoarthritis" is not "hip dysplasia", right? So it's not all that earth-shattering that if you take an OFA x-ray and submit to OFA for an OFA rating regarding hip dysplasia, they aren't going to give you a full analysis of whether your dog may develop arthritis.
> 
> I had my mutt x-rayed when he was 4 years old, did not send results to OFA but trust my vet and we both agreed he does *not* have HD, but he probably *will* develop arthritis as he ages. When I have a vet or specialist look at a dog's hips I'm not just trying to position them such that we get the top rating we can, I really want to know! If there is laxity, or the joint is not completely smooth and they might develop arthritis over time, that's important for me to know and that's why I'm paying someone to take the pictures and "read" them for me, not just so I can say "Oh he's OFA Good" and never think about it again. People who really push PennHip seem to have this assumption that those who use OFA or a-stamp only care about getting a passing rating. Maybe that's true for some but most people I know really want to know about their dogs' structure and what it means for the future, not just breeding but for the dogs' activity levels and what sorts of training is appropriate.


My concern with 5 was, I'd assume that a pup out of two "excellents" should be excellent as well... we all know its always a roll of the dice, but this seems to make me far less confident in OFA films.

Isn't the whole point in evaluating to be grading from the best possible positioning?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, but to me at least the grading is not the whole point of the evaluation. I'm paying for my *vet* to take the picture and make the call, not the OFA. If the dog is 24+ months and a breed survey prospect, then I'll submit to OFA since it's pretty cheap and I'll get the rating that I already knew was coming, but I walk out of the vet's office knowing what I need to know without an OFA certificate. If anything is unclear, the vet refers me to a specialist (I like my vet, he's very honest about what he knows or doesn't know). The specialist I used to use actually did the research that PennHIP is based on and he uses OFA or a-stamp ratings, so that tells me something. PennHIP tries to make it sound like they're more thorough but my vet knows the full history of my dogs, he knows what I feed them, how I exercise them, what sorts of training and activities we do, whether they've had previous injuries, etc. I think all that info is valuable when looking at joints and trying to determine how the dog may age, whether they are a breeding prospect, and what activity level is appropriate.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Yes, but to me at least the grading is not the whole point of the evaluation. I'm paying for my *vet* to take the picture and make the call, not the OFA. If the dog is 24+ months and a breed survey prospect, then I'll submit to OFA since it's pretty cheap and I'll get the rating that I already knew was coming, but I walk out of the vet's office knowing what I need to know without an OFA certificate. If anything is unclear, the vet refers me to a specialist (I like my vet, he's very honest about what he knows or doesn't know). The specialist I used to use actually did the research that PennHIP is based on and he uses OFA or a-stamp ratings, so that tells me something. PennHIP tries to make it sound like they're more thorough but my vet knows the full history of my dogs, he knows what I feed them, how I exercise them, what sorts of training and activities we do, whether they've had previous injuries, etc. I think all that info is valuable when looking at joints and trying to determine how the dog may age, whether they are a breeding prospect, and what activity level is appropriate.


Well OFA/a-stamp still dominates because its the incumbent method. Everyone knows what OFA is. People **** their head and say "huh" when I tell them my dog is "pennhip .26/.28". "Good" is a clearer warm and fuzzy. That being said, pennhip is more valuable to a breeder I'd think.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am interested , very much so , but haven't been able to organize my thoughts on the whole "hip" thing --- especially since , as in another thread "a gene has been found for hd" --- although it is not what most people think it is , or means what they think it does.

the vet that took care of all the PD k9s for a large city, out of friendship and to gain experience as it was very early days, offered to "penn-hip" all of my dogs at no expense to me. 
I did not take him up on this offer. I was doing OFA AND OVC on the same animal . 

the key is EPI-genetics . Knowing what the gene's are in a multi factorial disorder allows you to influence the gene expression through nutrition , providing the proper minerals for the codons , switches , for on or off at that location. 
Laxity also can be influenced by generations of well nourished animals , particularly while in fetal development and then continued throughout the critical growth stages. This includes ligaments, cartilage, tendons, muscle , bone density .
Never one thing in isolation. Always the whole and entire body-system.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

every GSD should be endowed with the most competent immune system .

all the attention to hip x rays and breed selection "still" has the statistics , as it did in the 1970's Swedish study , that approximately 30 % will have some degree of HD . That seems to be "natural" to the breed. What has changed is that we have shifted the ratings to less severe, and more to the mild , borderline range.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I have a dog that scored .20 for both hips on PennHip and OFA rated him a Fair and they both used the same X-rays. I trust PennHip. OFA is a crap shoot.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I believe PennHIP is a better source of information in regards to total hip structure. 

Unfortunately, as someone said, everyone knows what OFA is, so that seems to be what people want. 

I had a dog OFA fair, but PennHIP was .19/.24. (I think it was a while ago). 

It has also been shown that the same radiographs sent to OFA multiple times often get different ratings. OFA is totally subjective. PennHIP, is objective, in that it scientifically measures hip laxity. No guessing. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Personally when I talk with people about hips, I always bring up the PennHIP. It looks at more than simply how the bones fit together, and the radiologist who I work with said that with the PennHIP, you can tell if there has been some kind of injury that caused the hip to come out the way that it did. While form is important, the laxity in the hip can cause trouble for the dog later in life. 

My female hasn't had a PennHIP yet, mostly since I needed to get my account at work down lol, but there were dogs who had really nice hips in both OFA or PennHIP scores. She hurt herself and I was afraid it was her hip or knee or back. Took hip films to rule things out. She was just about 5 years old. The radiologist said her hips looked normal. So no signs of degenerative changes, osteophytes, etc. A friend of mine had hip films done on his female and at less than two years, the radiologist saw signs of degenerative changes. The dogs in the back of her line had not had a PennHIP done, just the OFA. 

I think the more that we learn, and the more that we find to try and help our breeds that we love stay strong, in my opinion.  And your dogs that are sharing sound like much better scores than I got with my golden lol. The radiologist said that he would likely OFA good or excellent but his PennHIP was 0.45 and 0.46, which put him in the 70th percentile for goldens.


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