# Can anyone check this breeder and these lines out



## Laxmatt (Apr 13, 2009)

Hey everyone I've been reading up and doing my research and am about to buy a puppy from a breeder. I was wondering if anyone with more knowledge and experience than me could comment on this breeder and on these two puppies/their lines. I'm looking for a companion as well as a dog that could possibly compete in Schutzhund. Your help is really appreciated.

http://4bardkennels.com/puppies/index.php?a=2&b=428


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Do they breed all those different dogs? If so I would be leary of them but maybe someone here knows of them personally.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

First red flag on this is the variety of dogs they breed, and how many litters at once is not a place I'd get a pup from, JMO. Sounds like a mill to me.


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## skyizzy (Apr 15, 2008)

Jane you are so right puppy mill!!!!!!!!


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I would RUN AWAY from this "breeder" based on their web site.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Buy it Now option.......*runs*


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Definitely looks like a mill. The clues - WAY too many breeds of dogs for a quality operation, health "guarantee" is only for a year with no mention of hip dysplasia, they claim they replace puppies with problems but only if you return the puppy you've got, no mention of titles on any of their breeding stock - but brags about how _some_ of their ancestors actually had titles (whoopity doo), no mention of health clearances on breeding stock, uses a lot of weird registries, makes a big deal about offering full AKC registration (so all their buyers can breed their dogs). 

If they do everything they say they do, they may be better than most mills, and may be more along the lines of a home "business" than a huge factory but better than absolutely horrible is still pretty bad and it's definitely not anywhere you want to buy a dog. For those prices or not much more you can buy a better bred dog with better health guarantees from someone who is doing a lot more to care for their dogs and produce the best GSDs possible in the most ethical and responsible manner possible.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Run as fast as you can!!! Stay as far away from this "breeder" as possible!!!! PUPPY MILL!!!


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## Laxmatt (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for the quick replies. I was referred to them through a friend that has a GSD she got through them. I agree that the number of breeds is a red flag but from searching around they really don't have puppies for most of the breeds and are selling adult dogs for the most part for those.

He has been very up front with me and openly communicated and offered to let me visit and see the puppies as well as the parents. Assuming I do visit, what should I look for to make sure it is a good situation? 

Also, can anyone comment on the quality of the lines?

Thanks again for the help!


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## Laxmatt (Apr 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqDefinitely looks like a mill. The clues - WAY too many breeds of dogs for a quality operation, health "guarantee" is only for a year with no mention of hip dysplasia, they claim they replace puppies with problems but only if you return the puppy you've got, no mention of titles on any of their breeding stock - but brags about how _some_ of their ancestors actually had titles (whoopity doo), no mention of health clearances on breeding stock, uses a lot of weird registries, makes a big deal about offering full AKC registration (so all their buyers can breed their dogs).
> 
> If they do everything they say they do, they may be better than most mills, and may be more along the lines of a home "business" than a huge factory but better than absolutely horrible is still pretty bad and it's definitely not anywhere you want to buy a dog. For those prices or not much more you can buy a better bred dog with better health guarantees from someone who is doing a lot more to care for their dogs and produce the best GSDs possible in the most ethical and responsible manner possible.


Wow thanks for the response. I'm glad I came to ask before diving in. Can you or anyone here recommend a breeder in the CO area then?

Also it does say they guarantee hips backs and elbows. Not sure what exactly that entails.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Here is an article that will help you identify a reputable breeder:

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/breeder.htm



You should also decide what type of German Shepherd you would like. If Schutzhund if one of your goals, you will want to look for German Show-line breeders or Working-line breeders. 

Here are a couple of links that gives you an overview of the different types of Shepherds being bred today. Typically, you will come across breeders of 3 main types: German show lines, American/Canadian show-lines, and German working lines. Make sure that the breeder you will eventually select actually trains and titles their own dogs in Schutzhund if you want a dog that will be able to participate in that activity:

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm


http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.denalikennels.com/
This was from a search, but if you look at this breeders website, it shows much better than the one you listed. I don't know anything about this breeder, but I'd spend time visiting this one vs the first one.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Wow thanks for the response. I'm glad I came to ask before diving in. Can you or anyone here recommend a breeder in the CO area then?
> 
> Also it does say they guarantee hips backs and elbows. Not sure what exactly that entails.


Yeah I saw that after I posted - phrasing it as "elbows and backs" the way they do is still pretty weird though. Normally you'd see pretty specific info about what they're promising in terms of the dog passing OFA etc. Also, OFA certification can't be done until the dog is 2, so sometimes less scrupulous breeders pull a fast one by limiting the guarantee to 1 year. 

The big thing though is that the parents aren't titled and their hip and elbow clearances are not mentioned. Also posting a weird hodge podge of who's who in the pedigree is a very strange way of presenting the info - good breeders will post an actual pedigree so you can see who and where all the dogs are in the lineage. 

These people seem to have obtained dogs who maybe came from titled lines a couple generations back but aren't doing anything to evaluate their actual breeding stock.

If you want to do Schutzhund, you want a dog whose parents and grand parents were actually active in the sport - as well as a dog who has been chosen by a knowledgable breeder as a likely candidate with the right kind of temperament for what you want.

I don't know any breeders in CO, but I'm sure some other folks on the board can help you there.

Welcome!


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## Laxmatt (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for the links and information. I sent in an application at the denali kennel. I'm interested in pup #2 from this litter.

http://www.denalikennels.com/available.htm

What do you all think? Your advice has proved very valuable.

Thanks again.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Nelli has trained dogs for SCH and competes. I would go with her.


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## MassiChewSits (Mar 10, 2009)

Laxmatt, I am also bringing a GSD into my life this summer-my first. Trust the advice of the experienced folks who frequent this board. 
IMO you should want to actually meet the breeder face-to-face, speak with them for a substantial amount of time, meet your future pup's sires (both if possible), see where the dogs sleep, see how much breeder takes an interest in you, your lifestyle, your reason why you want one of their's GSD's (vs. just asking cash or credit?).
A breeder I went to see I expected to spend an hour and meet the potential pup's sires. This breeder invited my wife and I into the house to meet her husband and the 15+ GSD's that live with them. Of course, only a handful of these were used for breeding, the rest were healthy,apparently well-loved companion dogs. We got to meet the all the potential sires (2 pairs). All of their GSD's slept in the house at night-there were dogs beds everywhere and no outdoor kennel in sight. The breeder asked a lot of questions about us and what we were looking for in a GSD and our plans for our dog. She answered all our questions without hesitation. Her enthusiasm for her dogs was obvious, this "one hour" Q+A session turned into a four-hour interview. She wanted to see if we would make a good home for one of her pups. The fact that she really cared about where her pups were going and how she made all her dogs part of her household is why we chose her. 
This was close to what I thought the ideal breeder should be for us-who are looking for a companion GSD. Of course, my recent experience may not fit your situation or goals (i.e. Shutzhund),but I thought I'd share. Good luck in your search out there in CO.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Wonder why the 2nd kennel bred their black male when he was only 10 months old?







He is the sire of the pups. Pups were born the end of Feb. Male turned 1yo the beginning of Feb.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is too bad, everything else looked pretty good on that site. Though I didn't spend much time on the litter pages.
Laxmatt, you should slow down and research more before you decide. There are many reputable breeders out there and don't limit yourself to Colorado. Sometimes the wait can be long, looking for a good breeder, finding the proper breeding with that breeder and waiting til they are actually bred. If you belong to a schutzhund club, ask around, if you don't ~visit some in your area, that may be a great way to find a suitable pup.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDWonder why the 2nd kennel bred their black male when he was only 10 months old?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not only that the dog only had prelims done on the hips and I see nothing about the elbows being done.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Oops.....

This is NOT Nelli - I withdraw my recommendation.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Yep I would pass on both of those. I second broadening your search. I live in Texas and will be getting my pup from Michagin...most reputable breeders will ship. Of course it requires a little more knowledge of the breeder...and developing a good relationship and trust. I also recommend that if you are looking to do Schutzhund that you find a breeder that competes as well, that way they can help pick a puppy that will work out best for your goals, lifestyle, and experience level. Unless you have an extreme knowledge and the breeder has very little....the breeder will have a better insight as to what pups will do best in each venue and hopefully a better understanding of the better match for you.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

WOW...

I can understand breeders who have a purpose and breed similar breeds (like herding breeds, or protection breeds), but those dogs are all over the place. From Chi's to Newfies, just wow.


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## Laxmatt (Apr 13, 2009)

Hey just wanted to update everyone. Based on the advice here I passed on the first breeder and decided to make the 4 hour drive down to the second one just to check it out, in spite of the concerns from some of you. 

The area was great and very clean and full of happy, healthy looking dogs. She let the 5 available pups out into the kitchen with me and one of them made a beeline for me and there was a connection there. She had the x-rays from both parents available and I got to check out both parents. They both seemed to have very good temperaments, drive, and health.

I'm picking up the puppy that I saw tomorrow and I'm sure I'll be around here for advice often. Thanks again to everyone that helped!


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