# Help! Mandatory Spay/Neuter



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Our city council is having a hearing on this proposal in my town tonight.

Does anyone have any information on fighting this successfully??


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

There is a mandatory spay/neuter ordinance in Los Angelas I believe. They have more strays now than before.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Here's a place to start

Effects Of MANDATORY Spay Neuter Laws - Politics - The American Dog Magazine

Here is an excerpt:

MSNL have been in effect in various communities for some time, so we now have ample opportunity to ascertain whether they reduce shelter killing. When we research these communities, we find that while increased voluntary sterilization does help reduce the number of animals entering shelters, MSNL do not decrease the number of animals entering or being killed in shelters. MSNL have backfired.

In fact, MSNL have resulted in more abandoned animals, higher shelter admissions, higher kill rates, lower compliance with licensing and rabies vaccination laws, and radically increased costs for animal control. People become afraid to get pet licenses because proof of sterilization is required. They are afraid to go to a veterinarian for rabies shots or medical care because veterinarians are required to report them. People abandon their pets because they fear fines and penalties.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

More

http://www.dpca.org/Legisltv/documents/FailureOfMSN.pdf

San Mateo: After the effective date of the ordinance, dog deaths in the areas governed by the​ordinance, increased 126% and cats 86% while licenses declined by 35%.

• Since the passage of this 2000 “spay or pay” Los Angeles ordinance, there has been a
decline in dog licensing compliance. The animal control budget after passage of the law
rose 269%., from $6.7 million to $18 million. The city hired additional animal control​
officers and bought new trucks and equipment just to enforce the new law.

Montgomery County, MD the mandatory spay/neuter law was repealed.
• When the law was enacted, it was estimated that 550 breeding permits would be
issued per year. In reality only an average of 30 permits were issued per year. There​was an estimated 50% decline in licensing compliance.

Fort Worth, TX ended its manadatory spay/neuter program.
• licensing compliance fell off after passage of the ordinance. As a result there was a​reduction in rabies vaccinations which lead to an increase in rabies in the city.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

It looks like a no win for the city/county who passes the law. 

There's a drop in revenue due to the drop in licenses purchased, plus the AC budget increases. People are afraid of fines so they dump their animals at the shelter. Oh, and avoidance of rabies vaccinations.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Thank you. I am busy gathering information. 

I can not find the AVMA official statement on this issue??


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Andaka said:


> There is a mandatory spay/neuter ordinance in Los Angelas I believe. They have more strays now than before.


There isn't well I don't think there is.. I know some people with unaltered animals. I think you just need to register your dog with an agency or SEACCA or something to show the dog is yours and has all it shots.

I think it should be voluntary.There are people who are idiots with altered dogs and unaltered dogs.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Samba said:


> Thank you. I am busy gathering information.
> 
> I can not find the AVMA official statement on this issue??


This?
"The Animal Welfare Committee recommended the changes to the policy, which reads, in part, as follows: "The AVMA does not support regulations or legislation mandating spay/neuter of privately owned, non-shelter dogs and cats. Although spaying and neutering helps control dog and cat populations, mandatory approaches may contribute to pet owners avoiding licensing, rabies vaccination and veterinary care for their pets, and may have other unintended consequences."
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea


Here is the policy on population control.
http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/population_control.asp


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> There isn't well I don't think there is.. I know some people with unaltered animals. I think you just need to register your dog with an agency or SEACCA or something to show the dog is yours and has all it shots.
> 
> I think it should be voluntary.There are people who are idiots with altered dogs and unaltered dogs.


I think the year after the law was put into effect, the amount of owner turn-ins tripled. I read that a long time ago. Of course, that meant thousands of dogs to euthanize.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

thanks for the info!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm sending you a PM with the email addy of someone involved with AKC/GSDCA matters including mandatory spay/neuter legislation.

I would also mention the possible health side effects of spay/neuter.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I attended the council meeting tonight. The proposed law actually generates from a concern about pitbulls in the community.

I was glad to hear that the vast majority of the council was not enamored with the proposed law. They asked that police chief consider all the issues and return in 6 months with a report. 

I felt that many of on the council were open to information. When I got home I sent them a nice email and attached the AVMA and AKC position statements. They said they had not had much public input so I am really working to get people to write in! I think I will write about health and other issues on another note so that I can keep the issue alive and also generate a sense of more input from the public.

I am contacting some other animal owner's rights orgs too.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I live in Montgomery County Maryland where the MSNL backfired. Now they just charge you more than 3x as much to register your unaltered dog every three years so their getting their money in,lol


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I just moved this to the weekly discussion topic. Unfortunately this is something we all need to know .....

Samba - please keep us updated on what works and what doesn't. Any info.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Now I am really concerned. How many cities and states have these laws in place. 

I AM THE ONE that decides whether or not my dog is going to be spayed. NOBODY ELSE BUT ME! They are my property! 

So please tell me that this is a bad joke...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

It should be up to the owner, unless the person is an idiot. Otherwise it should be the owner's decision.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nope. Not a joke. they have been trying to pass it in many places. 

It does not generally pass. But, that could change. This is why we have to remain a part of the governing body. We the people -- this is supposed to be a government by the people and for the people. Unfortunately if that means a majority of the people want this passed it will be. 

However, it DOES NOT HAVE to be a majority. We do not elect people by how much they know about dogs, and dog issues. Economy, business, law, party affiliation, and name recognition gets most people elected. And most of them haven't the first clue what works and what does not work with respect to pets. They may own a pet, but most of them are far removed from the whole thing.

They listen to the big money lobbyists, the humane society of the united states, and the people for the ethical treatment of animals, HSUS and PETA. Some of their campaigns, specifically spay/neuter campaigns, have a huge following. They married the terms responsible and spay/neuter, and that is a huge hit for all of us really. 

So unless we can head them off at the pass, we will not even know that this was being considered. What IS newsworthy. You have to KNOW what is coming up, and then you have to be in a position to act quickly and drum up opposing support. This site may have a few thousand members, but nationwide, that is drop in the bucket -- and I keep considering it an American site, which it is not. 

There are actually few people in my area that come on here, or are aware of any dog laws in the making. 

The dog club that I am a member of, and my training classes have people in the know, and we try to do stuff, we went to meet with a congressman a couple of weeks ago, but we are still a very small minority.

My guess is that a huge number of people, even on this board, get their dogs spayed/neutered as a regular and responsible thing to do, and many of them do not see this kind of legislation as all that bad. 

So it is really an up hill battle, and one day, we may not win. The AKC tries to keep track, but I think they are looking mostly at larger communities and state and national legislation. 

Limit laws, mandatory spay/neuter laws, breed specific legislation, and laws about breeding are all coming from the wrong quarter and need to be stopped.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Even if there are madatory spay/neuter laws there will be loonies who will not do it and cause problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In this case, those who will not do it will NOT be loonies. They will be people practicing civil disobedience.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I meant bybs and such. I should added that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jessica, it is not right to make ANYONE spay or neuter their dog EVER. 

Dogs being adopted out from shelters -- I do not have a problem with that. But nobody should tell you to perform a surgery that alters your property, that puts your critter at risk of many diseases, that changes your critter, that might even kill your critter. 

I will NEVER be ok with that. 

If someone is guilty of animal cruelty, like most puppy mill owners are, they should have their dogs removed, be tried, convicted, and have an order not to own dogs again.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Jessica, it is not right to make ANYONE spay or neuter their dog EVER.
> 
> Dogs being adopted out from shelters -- I do not have a problem with that. But nobody should tell you to perform a surgery that alters your property, that puts your critter at risk of many diseases, that changes your critter, that might even kill your critter.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree. No one ever should be able to make that decision for you. If they can take that right away from you, what else right are they taking away?

It's your property and the owner is the only one that should make that decision whether or not. I myself only neuter and spay for health reasons and that's it. 

Now if it was a stray, yes I would spay and neuter but only if they are in the condition and old enough to be spayed and neutered.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I know, but either way, there will be people who will make it bad for those who are good breeders and worse for everybody. Its like that with most laws, if not all. 

I believe this will be for regular dog owners, not breeders. If so, then there will be those regular dog owners who don't follow that rule and ruin it fr everybody.

I am not saying there should be a madatory spay/neuter. I agree it should be all the owners choice. I am just saying there will be those who just don't care or don't follow it. For example I have a friend who got her dogs from BYBs, she won't spay her dogs and won't get them vaccinated.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jessica, a regular owner can choose not to spay her dog because she has weighed the risks of spaying and not spaying and finds that in her opinion, the risks associated with spaying her dog, are greater than not spaying. The same is true about vaccinations. 

I used to pump every vaccination into my dogs, and put flea products on them, and the whole nine yards. I think that may not be the best bet when you break it down and see what is happening. 

Forcing ordinary citizens to spay/neuter, meaning not breeders, -- well, what qualifies you as a breeder? How many dogs do you have to maintain to be a breeder? There is no working definition that defines breeders, bybs, and puppy mills. Sorry, but passing a law like this MIGHT make the puppy mills/commercial breeders the only people ALLOWED to have intact animals. _That _is what happens when you ask the government to remove rights from citizens. 

The only people who will follow the law are those that are law-abiding. It will not stop there from being an overage of dogs in shelters, in fact people will turn their dogs in rather than pay for the surgery. PETA is ok with that, because they know the vast majority of those dogs will never come out of the shelters -- alive. And ultimately they do not want dogs being ruled by people, so they win.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> Jessica, a regular owner can choose not to spay her dog because she has weighed the risks of spaying and not spaying and finds that in her opinion, the risks associated with spaying her dog, are greater than not spaying. The same is true about vaccinations.
> 
> I used to pump every vaccination into my dogs, and put flea products on them, and the whole nine yards. I think that may not be the best bet when you break it down and see what is happening.
> 
> ...


 
I am just saying its pointless to have the madatory spay/neuter because there will aways be idiots no matter what. And there will always be dogs in shelters. I am not saying there should be this law. I am agreeing with you.

There will always be problems with or without this law for those whoa re for it and those against.


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

It makes my blood boil to think anyone could think it's ok to make people submit to crap like this. Making this mandatory would make me a criminal because there is no way, short of forcibly taking my property, that I submit to this.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It is taking your rights away. I will never submit to anything like that either. I'd rather move!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It criminalizes those who are currently law abiding.

The city council recognized this was meddling in people's personal decisions about their pets. They noted for many people these animals are like family members. The council was not really keen on having government involved in such. They saw it as punishing good owners because of a few bad owners. 

The crazy thing was this came not from a concern over pet over population, but rather fear of law enforcement regarding pit bulls.


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

Samba said:


> It criminalizes those who are currently law abiding.
> 
> The city council recognized this was meddling in people's personal decisions about their pets. They noted for many people these animals are like family members. The council was not really keen on having government involved in such. They saw it as punishing good owners because of a few bad owners.
> 
> The crazy thing was this came not from a concern over pet over population, but rather fear of law enforcement regarding pit bulls.


 I tip my glass to that city council then for using some common sense, which seems to be in short supply these days.:thumbup:

It wouldn't surprise me at all that the real reason was a "..fear of law enforcement regarding pit bulls". That is a perfect example of the over reactions that are being used to erode more and more of our freedoms everyday. It is easier to go after responsible law abiding citizens than it is to deal with those lacking personal responsibility.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Sorry I got to this late but the first thing I would do if my local government was thinking of some type of mandatory law is to call the AKC. They have a lot of info about how to fight this and in most cases will send a representative to the city council to speak on our side. 

AKC does a lot of good stuff and this is one of them.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, AKC has quite a bit of good information in this. Our club has a legislative liason with the AKC. We also have a state organization for animal owner's rights who has resources. When and if it comes up again, we have some support lined up.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Apparently I keep hearing about a mandatory s/n around here, but so far nothing has bee brought up in my city's newsletter. Must be for another city or animal shelters.


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## Asche-zu-Staub (Apr 25, 2010)

Is it possible to get a mandatory spay/neuter with just mutts? What if you are a legitimate breeder that lives in your area? Or, is there additional licencing required in these areas that have this ordinance? I was just wondering if breeders, or kennels, are affected by this two...sorry if i'm only confused, anyone could pm if this is off topic.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

In the case of my city, the only provision for intact dogs was to register and be inspected as a breeding facility. Wow! No provision for show exhibitors who don't breed.

Some places have a higher fee for intact dogs and other provisions.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Why are there higher fees for those with intact dogs?


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## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

I think cities would fair better if they simply gave funding to shelters that allowed to them to offer free spay/neuter to the public. I know here in NYC, the ASPCA is doing a pitbull-themed free vet clinic (pits account for something like 80-90% of shelter dogs here and are one of the most popular breeds to keep) where anyone, regardless of financial situation or legal status, can schedule to bring their dog in for a checkup, vax, routine medical care, microchip, and spay/neuter. There's even an option for vasectomy of male dogs!!! (So that the rough 'n toughs walking their dogs can have them neutered without losing street cred.) They also give the participating dogs a bandana and doggy shirt to try to entice them to come in.

To me, THAT's the way to combat high shelter rates. Offer something that will bring in the people who shouldn't be breeding their dogs, don't penalize the marginally responsible who license them in the first place with fines.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Apparently I keep hearing about a mandatory s/n around here, but so far nothing has bee brought up in my city's newsletter. Must be for another city or animal shelters.


There is currently a Mandatory S/N law in effect in Los Angeles City and in the county. Also, right this minute, SB 250 is being considered in the California legislature. So, unless enough people speak up, it could be the law for the entire state. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...97-california-sb-250-mandatory-s-n-again.html


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## kearanentalo (Nov 2, 2009)

Wow, you all, what powerful research! Kudos to you for finding all this information!


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

If they are such fans of spay and neutering; then they should try it out on themselves first as a trial. I think all of the politicians should be spayed and neutered.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Angeles is not getting snipped. Would take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I had to. He has a right to his manhood. And seems to me, that would be forced taking of someone's property without just cause (on an individual basis). I for one, want him to have puppies one day  Still need to get those OFA x-rays done - I keep putting them off....My breeder said she would help me breed him with the right female when the time came and if he passed the OFA (i.e. I would be shipping the samples since she lives in NC) and I may not want another Angeles until he is no longer with me. So freezing is a good option. 

This mandatory spay or pay sounds as bad as BSL - just doesn't work. Kind of like gun laws - not like the criminals are going to give up their guns! Okay sorry off topic.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is meddlesome and criminalizes the law abiding without accomplishing its intended ends.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Vandal said:


> There is currently a Mandatory S/N law in effect in Los Angeles City and in the county. Also, right this minute, SB 250 is being considered in the California legislature. So, unless enough people speak up, it could be the law for the entire state.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...97-california-sb-250-mandatory-s-n-again.html


Tell that to my friend. She refuses to spay or BYB mutts because it costs too much.

There are idiot owners for both altered and unaltered dogs. Spaying/neutering should be mandatory for shelters/rescues.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

samba said:


> it is meddlesome and criminalizes the law abiding without accomplishing its intended ends.


amen!


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