# PANDA shepherd?????



## Sherryn0909

Have ypu ever seen a PUREBRED gsd that is 35% white, and the rest is black and tan, and has mo white gsd in its ancestry?
Phenom Shepherds - Genetic Panda Info


----------



## Wolfgeist

..............I really don't know what to say. A 'breeder' marketing this 'rare german shepherd' to make money.


----------



## LaRen616

I dont agree with people purposely breeding pandas but I do find them attractive.


----------



## Danielle609

I think they are fairly cool looking, but to me they don't look like a GSD at all. Just like a border collie mix. Really makes me mad seeing people purposely breeding for this!


----------



## selzer

yuck. It is one thing not to cull a dog due to aesthetics, but to show them?


----------



## Jax08

Panda is a genetic mutation. there was one person on there that had one but I don't see her on anymore.

My understanding is that this is not the first time a "panda" has popped up in a litter but they were always killed before.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> yuck. It is one thing not to cull a dog due to aesthetics, but to show them?


I don't think everyone looks at them and says "yuck", but putting that aside, if she _can_ show them, why not? I mean really, what's the harm?

Culling or hiding away a dog like what we now know as the Panda doesn't help anyone. Might as well study them and learn something new about genetics, DNA etc. if you can.


----------



## Jax08

Whiteshepherds said:


> Might as well study them and learn something new about genetics, DNA etc. if you can.


If a Panda is a genetic mutation from a German Shepherd, does that then make it a new independent breed?


----------



## Lucy Dog

Pandas look like dogs you see down at the shelter. To me they look like mixed breeds. Like a Husky x GSD or something like that. Never really cared much for them from the pictures I've seen.



Jax08 said:


> If a Panda is a genetic mutation from a German Shepherd, does that then make it a new independent breed?


I don't think so. Isn't dwarfism a genetic mutation? A dwarf GSD wouldn't be considered a different breed.


----------



## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't think everyone looks at them and says "yuck", but putting that aside, if she _can_ show them, why not? I mean really, what's the harm?
> 
> Culling or hiding away a dog like what we now know as the Panda doesn't help anyone. Might as well study them and learn something new about genetics, DNA etc. if you can.


I am not saying "yuck" with regards to the dogs themselves, but the idea of showing them. 

Why not? If your breeding program was producing dogs with two tails, are you going to take them out and show them? I see you have white dogs. I do not have anything against white dogs, they have been around since the beginning. And white dog fanciers have made a place for themselves in the UKC and were accepted to show them, etc. 

I see this as different. I am not completely convinced that this happened out of pure GSDs. But even if it did, the idea of breeding for this is repulsive, that is what is yuck.


----------



## Jax08

True, Paul! But is a dwarf a genetic mutation or a chromosome mutation? I think there might be a difference on that level. A genetic mutation would make it a separate 'colony'. (watching a show last night on the Kongo river and it just got me thinking. Same 'breed' but genetically separate colony of fish.

but I guess a blue, sable, black and bicolor are all genetically different also...think I just answered my own question.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Jax08 said:


> If a Panda is a genetic mutation from a German Shepherd, does that then make it a new independent breed?


 
The Panda's on Phenom's site all seem be registered as GSD's. No idea if the plan is to eventually try and break off into a new breed. Except for the color I don't think the dogs are any different gentically than any other GSD. 

I'm kind of glad the first pup fell into the lap of a breeder who was willing to have it looked into further. Can you imagine watching a litter be born and all of a sudden having a Panda pup pop out? That had to blow her mind for more than a minute or two the first time it happened.

Edit: If you click on the link in the OP there's a message from the veterinary geneticist who's studying the dogs.


----------



## Smoktya

i must say it is weird seeing that coloring, especially the blue eyes on some of them. But none the less, they look pretty cool IMO. I say as long as you can find them a great home, who cares what they look like.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Smoktya said:


> i must say it is weird seeing that coloring, especially the blue eyes on some of them. But none the less, they look pretty cool IMO. I say as long as you can find them a great home, who cares what they look like.


Because they don't even have to be purposely producing them. 

If it was a panda shepherd rescue, you'd have a point. These people are purposely breeding them.


----------



## Jax08

Whiteshepherds said:


> The Panda's on Phenom's site all seem be registered as GSD's. No idea if the plan is to eventually try and break off into a new breed. Except for the color I don't think the dogs are any different gentically than any other GSD.
> 
> ...
> 
> Edit: If you click on the link in the OP there's a message from the veterinary geneticist who's studying the dogs.



I've read it all before long ago. See my last post where I answered my own question.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

The main reason why this is bad - it all goes back to a single dog that was bred SOLELY for their coloration.

ALL the White Dobermans out there can be traced back to a single bitch - who should never have been bred. Her coloration aside she had health and temperament issues.

Breeding a dog based on *ONE *aspect - like a deep red color or an extreme side gait or whatever - is BAD BREEDING.

Dogs aren't made up of just *ONE *aspect - they are a combination of MANY aspects.

What good is that deep, rich red color if the dog is a fear biter?

What good is that breath taking side gait if the dog is as dumb as a box of rocks?

What good is off-the-charts ball drive if the dog has bad hips??


----------



## Konotashi

I think they're pretty. 

Also, the dogs are being shown, clear health tests, are DNA tested to show people that they're GSDs and not a mix, and I saw that several of the dogs have certificates for passing a temperament evaluation from GSDCA. I don't think that's necessarily bad breeding.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Konotashi said:


> I think they're pretty.
> 
> Also, the dogs are being shown, clear health tests, are DNA tested to show people that they're GSDs and not a mix, and I saw that several of the dogs have certificates for passing a temperament evaluation from GSDCA. I don't think that's necessarily bad breeding.


I didn't read through the details of their website, but where are they showing these dogs? This panda color isn't considered a disqualification or fault?


----------



## Konotashi

Where they're showing them - I don't know. I would guess maybe UKC or the American Rare Breed Association. If it is through ARBA, that does bug me a bit, considering they're registered as GSDs with the AKC, then they show them as a different breed.


----------



## amaris

They look less like gsds and more like husky/border collies/heeler mixes. Still, no good dog's a bad color.

And tbh, as long as the dogs are being bred with more in consideration thn just color, i don't see why not. There are lots of kennels focused specifically on producing dogs with Black and Red coats or Sable coats, focusing on producing panda coats should work on the same principle. Watch for too close genetic lines and breed with more in consideration thn just what color will come out.

As for showing them, why not? Showing them might serve to educate a few people on genetic traits.


----------



## KZoppa

Where's Robin? She's explained this once before. 

The Panda gene IS a genetic mutation which has in fact been studied. The dogs can be traced and she technically "owns" the genetic rights since she's the one who questioned it where others killed pups that showed up in litters. 

Personally I like them. I would like to have one someday but my knowledge is, she no longer breeds them.


----------



## vicky2200

I can see why they can't be shown: they don't fit breed standard (not that I really like that they disqualify based on color. but they do.) 
I haven't done any research to see that these dogs are healthy, but someone posted that they saw that they were and had all other GSD qualities, because they are a GSD. If this is the case, I see no problem breeding them. Some people like that look, so, if it healthy, why not? I happen to be one of the people who like the look, mostly because it is different. Ditto is a different color too (not THAT different.) I would be willing to pay for one of these pups in the future, assuming their health checks out.


----------



## Riccosmama12

I had never seen one before but think they're pretty cool looking. I don't know anything about showing and that sort of stuff but as far as coloring and markings they look quite rare.


----------



## BlackthornGSD

The one important difference between the panda GSDs and white dobermans is that the panda gene is a dominant one, so they can easily expand the breeding pool by breeding a panda parent to any other GSD. 

Eventually, if the Panda Shepherd becomes its own breed, the single source of the coloring could become an issue. Hopefully, before it splits off, panda breeders will ensure that there is adequate diversity in the gene pool for the new "breed".

The one thing that is a yellow flag, imo, is that these dogs are being bred because of their coloring. Not because of their health or workability or excellent conformation. In general, the people who started breeding the panda shepherds began with good bloodlines that randomly produced this unusual color and they have maintained good quality control and are trying hard to breed good dogs with good health and good genetic diversity. 

But, still, it's a fluke chance that produced the color and breeding for color almost always ends up compromising other aspects of the dogs.


----------



## Clyde

Jax08 said:


> True, Paul! But is a dwarf a genetic mutation or a chromosome mutation? I think there might be a difference on that level. A genetic mutation would make it a separate 'colony'. (watching a show last night on the Kongo river and it just got me thinking. Same 'breed' but genetically separate colony of fish.
> 
> but I guess a blue, sable, black and bicolor are all genetically different also...think I just answered my own question.


This would be like saying red headed people are different breeds or people with dwarfism are different breeds of people. There is a lot of genetic diversity within a species or breed but diversity is not a reason in its self for classification on a breed or species level.

Chromosomes are long strands of genes so a mutation is a mutation the nature of the mutation is what matters. Chromosome mutations are most always negative because this often involves extra chromosomes or missing chromosomes and usually have a much greater effect on the organism than a mutation of a gene. 

I don't know that biologist really use the term breed that much perhaps they do but usually they are more interested in species classification.

Usually a species is determined based on whether the animals are similar enough to mate. This can mean they can create viable offspring (;ion and tigers can breed but offspring are infertile) sometimes two animals can create viable offspring artificially but in the wild they would not respond to each others mating signals and therefore that would never happen or the animals can mate and create viable offspring but are isolated geographically. Basically different species have isolated gene pools. Breeds are a human invention and in a way do have isolated genepools when it comes to purebred dogs. 

Perhaps they meant that the fish are geographically isolated and are now genetically different than the other colony but are not yet different enough to be a different species. I would be very interested if the show actually used the word "breed".

I gotta run but hope that made sense.


----------



## Jax08

What part of I answered my own question is hard to understand?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> Why not? If your breeding program was producing dogs with two tails, are you going to take them out and show them?
> 
> I see this as different. I am not completely convinced that this happened out of pure GSDs. But even if it did, the idea of breeding for this is repulsive, that is what is yuck.


 It happened Selzer, the dogs have been tested and it's been researched to death. 

The dogs don't have two tails. They aren't defective. Rather than hide Franka away or cull her as was suggested by many people, (and probably done in the past by other breeders) this breeder made a choice to let science into her breeding program. I think that's admirable on her part. 

The breeder who produced Franka was asked to do more breedings by the UofC so they could do genetic studies. That's how the line evolved, not because the breeder wanted to make a fast buck selling oddly patterned GSD's. People need to stop jumping to conclusions and condemning breeder's they really don't know anything about. 

I called one of the Panda breeder's earlier tonight. She said the Panda's don't breed true so there's very little chance that they will become a separate breed, at least in the near future. 

She also said Panda's don't produce like the whites, where white to white = white. Panda bred to Panda doesn't guarantee more Panda's. It sounded like producing Panda's isn't as easy as people seem to think it might be. She actually talked at length about how it all works but I got lost after the first few minutes. 

An FYI, besides the original breeder there are only 3 other breeders with dogs from this line that carry full registrations. (not counting the original breeders dogs, that's 4 dogs if the person I talked to is right) You aren't going to see Panda's popping up all over the country, the breeder has really tight controls on the line.


----------



## suzzyq01

Interesting how the one panda dog has two blue eyes. 

It LOOKS to me as if somewhere in the line they bred a Siberian Husky into the lines of a GSD. Hard to believe that the mutation would bring the recessive non exsistant blue eyes to the breed. 

*Siberian Huskies have Aouti color, pie bald patterns plus blue eyes. Hmm.


----------



## robinhuerta

The genetics on the Panda gene has been documented.....and it is fact a true mutation in the GSD breed.
I (myself) witnessed 2 Panda colored puppies born more than 15+ years ago, from 2 pedigreed, pure bred GSD dogs. No chance of "mixed" lineage, and one had blue eyes. These 2 puppies were out of a litter of 8 puppies, which consisted of 6 normal black & red/tan pups. * I was a friend of the breeder.*
The temperament & characteristics should be no different than other dogs from the same bloodlines.
Dogs with these types of markings have been born over the many years. Breeders simply said nothing and culled the puppies.......just as some (still today) will destroy puppies that have an abundance of white markings.
The chance of this mutation is sporadic...hence the reason why the same two parents can be bred again, and no Panda mutation occurs.
More studies are being done....and I do believe the *breeder* has pursued, participated and started the genetic documentation of this color variance.

*I don't find them disgusting or anything else...other than a mutated color variance that can happen within the breed.....actually, they are pretty unique looking. JMO.


----------



## RebelGSD

I rescued a Panda, she was a typical energetic GSD personality. She came from the OH - PA area. She had a scar on her abdomen, we assumed it was from spay. Later she went into heat and it turned out she was not spayed. She probably had a cesarian, I she could have belonged to a breeder. I guess something went wrong with the litter and they got rid of her. I will try to find her photo. She had a great personality and was pretty in a unique way.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

robinhuerta said:


> The genetics on the Panda gene has been documented.....and it is fact a true mutation in the GSD breed.
> I (myself) witnessed 2 Panda colored puppies born more than 15+ years ago, from 2 pedigreed, pure bred GSD dogs. No chance of "mixed" lineage, and one had blue eyes. These 2 puppies were out of a litter of 8 puppies, which consisted of 6 normal black & red/tan pups. * I was a friend of the breeder.*
> The temperament & characteristics should be no different than other dogs from the same bloodlines.
> Dogs with these types of markings have been born over the many years. Breeders simply said nothing and culled the puppies.......just as some (still today) will destroy puppies that have an abundance of white markings.
> The chance of this mutation is sporadic...hence the reason why the same two parents can be bred again, and no Panda mutation occurs.
> More studies are being done....and I do believe the *breeder* has pursued, participated and started the genetic documentation of this color variance.
> 
> *I don't find them disgusting or anything else...other than a mutated color variance that can happen within the breed.....actually, they are pretty unique looking. JMO.


Thanks for the insight and information!!


----------



## carmspack

as per a discussion from last week when my friend the microbioligist visited for lunch after "market" -- I got on to a discussion about a program that I had seen about T-Rex and how some paleotologists were questioning and rewriting the social dynamics of this lizard --- out comes the statment that "you know that basically modern birds are a continuation of evolution of dinosaur-lizards" continue -- that "we essentially could take DNA from a chicken and recreate a T-Rex (dinosaurian ancestor) as sample" "that a dog or a wolf - could quite possibly recreate a pre-historic monstrous sized Dire Wolf" .

Nothing in genes is lost , it gets buried . It is JUNK DNA .
Junk DNA and Central Dogma formally abandoned in HoloGenomics What we know about genetics is being re-written . Darwin , anyway , borrowed on ideas written and presented to him by Wallace- publish first, get recognition - Now Lamarck , epigenetics is being revisited.
So what has this to do with Panda GSD -- that , it is not new or a mutation - but part of a minor gene that exists and is buried within the DNA potentials of the colour palette of the GSD. Check the von Stephanitz book - there is and are samples of (I believe must check in the morning) "panda" (what a name!) colouration through Swiss? herding dogs -- and checking on the history of the time if you look into maps of Europe mid 1800's long before Germany was unified , there was a zone in "magna germania" which was "superior" and "lessor" germania which included the northern lowlands and what we know as Switzerland -- and the rest was Prussia which expanded into Austria - Czech . Very very easily genes from these indigenous "pied" herding dogs were incorporated into the herding stock which joined in the building of the modern , public registry dog we know as GSD.

always interesting when you look at the big picture --

Carmen


----------



## robinhuerta

Carmen...the word mutation is much easier for most people to comprehend.
Since it's not the "norm" and of course is within the genes included within the ancestry of this breed....the term mutated gene is often used, even if it is actually out of text.
I think people are fascinated at what is unknown or "abnormal"....and can also become confused and scared by what they do not understand....hence the immediate and common response(s) concerning this color variation.
Since I have actually witnessed puppies being born of this color variation.......I was not included in the "shock factor" as many were....
I think we would all be "impressed" if we actually were involved with the "making" of this breed....to see the genes that are actually present within the DNA of this breed.....and the numerous possibilities of the genes expressing themselves now and in the future.
*I find it fascinating.*


----------



## Jax08

Very interesting. So, this is not a "mutation" at all, just a gene that is already there.


----------



## Clyde

Jax08 said:


> True, Paul! But is a dwarf a genetic mutation or a chromosome mutation? I think there might be a difference on that level. A genetic mutation would make it a separate 'colony'. (watching a show last night on the Kongo river and it just got me thinking. Same 'breed' but genetically separate colony of fish.
> 
> but I guess a blue, sable, black and bicolor are all genetically different also...think I just answered my own question.





Jax08 said:


> What part of I answered my own question is hard to understand?


I was responding to your statement that the genetic mutation would make it a separate 'colony' of fish. A genetic mutation is not all of a sudden cause for something to be classified a little differently maybe the fish were physically isolated within the river and that made them call the fish separate 'colonies' just a guess. To me when you say genetically separated I start to think speciation. If two colonies become separated and are truly genetically isolated they would technically be separate species. Perhaps it is just your wording that is throwing your statement off. 

I get that you figured out that Panda colour is just another colour. That wasn't really what I was referring to.

I just wanted to try and explain that the way we classify dogs has very little to do with how non-domesticated organism are classified once you get past the species level (eg. breed).


----------



## Samba

Awwww! Smart Panda puppy counts!


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Samba said:


> Awwww! Smart Panda puppy counts!


Love the high fives and miss those puppy barks around here. That pup has no idea how much controversy there is surrounding her!


----------



## Konotashi

That video is adorable! I love watching puppies do tricks. 

Is the panda gene co-dominant? For example, I know that the mosaic gene in sugar gliders is co-dominant. 
If you breed a mosaic to a mosaic, you can either get mosaics or normals. If you breed a mosaic to a normal, you can also get mosaics and normals. There are no mosaic 'carriers.' If you want mosaic joeys, one of the parents must be mosaic. If they don't express the phenotype for the mosaic gene, then they don't have it, regardless of whether one or both parents are mosaic. I hope that made sense. I used the sugar gliders as an example, because they have random splotches of white on them as the panda GSDs do. The white can range from just being on their feet/ankles, to the entire glider being white. 

Here's a photo of one.


----------



## vomlittlehaus

If you look at the actual coloring of the panda dogs shown, you will see how the white is just masking (covering) the other color that is present. I see bi-color, sable, saddleback sable dogs with extensive white on them. This is a common occurrence with horse coloring. And one thing I have never understood, is how the eye color correlates with the coat color in patterns that cover the eye area.


----------



## lhczth

When they created the cutesy name they opened themselves up for the criticism. They are a GSD of an unusual tri-type coloring. Panda Shepherd just comes across as a cute marketing tool just like all the idiot 'doodles" and other cross breed names that have been created. When I see that name my first reaction is $$$$$$$$$$$.


----------



## Konotashi

If you think about it, though, all the colors/patterns have different names. White, liver, blue, bi-color, black/red, black/tan, sable, blanket back, etc....


----------



## lhczth

But they are not cutesy names. They depict the color. Panda (which they look nothing like) is cutesy.


----------



## arycrest

dawnandjr said:


> If you look at the actual coloring of the panda dogs shown, you will see how the white is just masking (covering) the other color that is present. I see bi-color, sable, saddleback sable dogs with extensive white on them. This is a common occurrence with horse coloring. And one thing I have never understood, is how the eye color correlates with the coat color in patterns that cover the eye area.


Sorry, but I don't see the white in the so-called panda as a "masking" vs the color white ... I'm not saying you're wrong, just don't understand the rationale behind it. Could you explain how it relates to GSDs?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

lhczth said:


> When they created the cutesy name they opened themselves up for the criticism. They are a GSD of an unusual tri-type coloring. Panda Shepherd just comes across as a cute marketing tool just like all the idiot 'doodles" and other cross breed names that have been created. When I see that name my first reaction is $$$$$$$$$$$.


From one of the 4 breeders websites:
_"Naming the dogs with this pattern the "Panda Shepherd" was for the benefit of those who would condemn us for calling these dogs GSDs." _

Also, if it was all about marketing and money don't you think she'd be pumping out Panda's left and right or at least charging ridiculous prices for the dogs? This breeder can't catch a break.


----------



## selzer

It is documented? Fine. But 15 years ago, I would not trust DNA, and I really didn't think that DNA for determining breed was all that accurate. So a breeder witnessed these pups whelped, but a litter can have more than one sire. And more like, the sire or dam of the litter looked all GSD, and the breeders probably believe that he was all GSD, but isn't it possible that one or the other was 1/4 or 1/8 something else, like husky. Someone somewhere did not realize some mangy, rangy husky or border collie mix bred their bred female, and out of the litter, a pup that looks all GSD is actually 1/2 a mixture. 

I am just thinking that as possible as it is for this to just happen, like the big bang, it is also possible that someone somewhere was not so careful as they thought with their bitch. I just am not convinced that this is a purebred GSD.

I am surprised they are not calling them pie-bald. I do not like the look. But I don't like culling for aesthetics either. I just would not breed for it, as they are. 

The brindle used to be a color in GSDs and it is no longer. I would think that if this color just cropped up out of nothingness, some dogs somewhere would just come out brindle too.


----------



## robinhuerta

Sue,
The dogs were bred on the premises of the breeder.....both parents were her dogs.
There was no "outside" mongrel, huskie or phantom stud that shared his sperm in making of the litter. This was a 40acre homestead and ALL dogs were in indoor/outdoor 25 ft runs. The property was also fenced in.
Believe it or not....the litter was purebred, and from the parents she owned....
Culling happened much more yester-year than it does today...but you will find, from talking to breeders of yester-year, that there are MANY things that are kept as skeletons in the closet.
One would be surprised to know how many "imperfections" happen when breeding......that's the reality of *genes*, both recessive, dominant and dormant....they DO present themselves from time to time...


----------



## Samba

The parents of the litter were tested through DNA. This tests works. It is why sires utilized a certain amount must submit DNA to AKC. The parents of all the black and tan pups were also the parents of the tri-colored one in the litter. This type of DNA test determines parenatge. It is why a litter can have two sires and then the testing used to sort out whose is whose.

The Pandas are a GSD of a different color only. Genes are fun!


----------



## carmspack

Linda Shaw was fairly interested in the panda , a name which I think is awful , in that it is cutesy . Really it is a PIED or PIEBALD .
Apparently she visited the Ontario breeder who found Pied pups in her litter and confirmed that DNA "paternity" test was done , there was one sire , and the sire of the Pied (panda) was the sire of note . No mystery misters. 

Page 126 - after von Stephanitz has written about "the foundation colour is a wolf-like dark shading on a grey-yellow grond from which all other colours, from the pure white, (which, however, is very seldom seen in smooth-haired dogs , and is then not beautiful), up to uniform black. have been develope. the most frequent are the wolf-colourd, that is to say, the sandy or the sandy grey, or pale red to brown coloured dogs with regular, mostly light tan points on the head and limbs; one can also see black and sandy coloured dogs i.e. black doges wiht the same markings , but mostly a more pronouned darker tan to reddish brown colouring. 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx Dapple blue fellows were formerly often met with among the working dogs in nortern and central Germany, expecially BLUE or RED WITH WHITE PATCHES. In Brunswick some sheep farmers, have a specila liking for dogs with a particular tiger-spotted coat. These dogs had dark brown ot black spots or larger splashes on a lighter background . 

Illustration page 129 figure 107 a smooth haired dog from Brunswick - flaked blue grey -- 128 long ocat shepherd dog from Saxony - flaked blue-grey. Page 130 another picture of "spotted "


----------



## carmspack

this was interesting Frankenhaus German Shepherds - Color Genetics

When the GSD was made into one unified breed , as per any public registry dog, standards were set that went out side of function , performance and into the cosmetic . Although v Stephanitz said there is no good dog with a bad colour , it was clear that certain variations of colour were to be discriminated against, not bred from . These included, white, liver, blue , patterns , merle , even brindle which was continued with a common ancestor to evolve into the Dutch Shepherd. 
What is in the genes is not lost , only hidden .


----------



## cliffson1

Carmen, that's why any serious student of this breed must have this book and have read it.....it opens up a lot of things and clears up many wives tales that have grown with the breed.


----------



## Kathrynil

A normal German Shepherd is one of the five(?) colors: red, black, sable, tan, etc. Not panda. Panda I consider, as well as white, as a genetic mutation that is not a normal dog. As pretty as they are, pandas are not "real" German shepherds in my book.


----------



## Kathrynil

Pandas are not recognized by AKC or the other big dog places, but it's kind of opinionated. Some people think they are shepherds. I don't personally.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Kathrynil said:


> A normal German Shepherd is one of the five(?) colors: red, black, sable, tan, etc. Not panda. Panda I consider, as well as white, as a genetic mutation that is not a normal dog.


The panda markings are the result of a mutation. White is a naturally occurring color in the breed, not a mutation.


Kathrynil said:


> Pandas are not recognized by AKC or the other big dog places, but it's kind of opinionated. Some people think they are shepherds. I don't personally.


The AKC doesn't recognize a breed known as the "Panda Shepherd" that's true, but a dog with panda markings can be registered as a GSD if it is in fact a purebred GSD. (meaning it's pedigree shows it's a GSD)


----------



## Aly

Jax08 said:


> If a Panda is a genetic mutation from a German Shepherd, does that then make it a new independent breed?


No, I don't believe it should. The overall (breed) genetics would be the same (allowing for normal variation, that is), save for the mutation of encoded color.


----------



## Kathrynil

White is my personal opinion. Panda is a fact.


----------



## Jax08

LOL how OLD is this thread?! 

First, white is not a genetic mutation nor is it a color. It's a whole separate gene that masks the actual genetic color. A white dog is genetically black, black/tan, bicolor or sable with the masking gene.

Panda's are just a mutation on color. It doesn't change their breed.


----------



## JRadtke

Kathrynil said:


> Pandas are not recognized by AKC or the other big dog places, but it's kind of opinionated. Some people think they are shepherds. I don't personally.


My take is that they are a German Shepherd, but just one with a fault. I do not prefer them either though.

What makes a purebred is if all ancestors are members of the breed. They are purebred German Shepherds. You test their DNA and it will say the same. 

There is no perfect dog. One does not exist. However, choosing to breed in that genetic trait is not one that many are likely to make. The panda genetic mutation is dominant so it's very easy to avoid if one wants to. 

Saying that one particular fault makes a dog no longer a German Shepherd is a bit harsh. To me it is like saying that a dog with low withers, doesn't have parallel head planes, is too friendly, gets startled by loud noises, cow hocked, or otherwise isn't a German Shepherd either. One fault doesn't make it no longer a German Shepherd. 

A severe fault like panda would still make it a less ideal specimen of the breed though.


----------



## JRadtke

Jax08 said:


> LOL how OLD is this thread?!


I've noticed that a lot of old threads are being resurrected. I believe it's because they are under the "Recommended Reading" section and it's easy to assume that its a current/active thread.


----------



## Kathrynil

I just found this one and decided to put my two cents in. Probably more like one cent.  

I do think Pandas are genetically German Shepherds, the thing is: some people consider a mutation good to the point where they breed them. I don't think that's the case one bit. I don't think the animal that is mutated should be bred at all to continue the gene that caused the mutation, even if the mutation is just color. No matter how "pretty" it is. Some people have whole kennels full to the brim with panda shepherds. That's like breeding two cow-hocked German shepherds and calling the outcome a "new form" of shepherd. It's just not right. 

You can tell I feel quite strongly about this. ?

German shepherds should never be panda, and I would never breed one like some people do.


----------



## Kathrynil

I didn't mean to say that I thought they were NOT shepherds. I don't know why I said that.


----------



## Jax08

Nobody should be breeding outside the standard. And Panda's are outside the standard.


----------



## Kathrynil

@Jax08 








The Panda German Shepherd






bradfordsk-9corral.com





it took me one minute to find this. I can't stand places like this. They had a liver/panda shepherd there!!!  Livers are considered very bad when it comes to German Shepherds, but you probably already know that.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Kathrynil said:


> The Panda German Shepherd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bradfordsk-9corral.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it took me one minute to find this. I can't stand places like this. They had a liver/panda shepherd there!!!  Livers are considered very bad when it comes to German Shepherds, but you probably already know that.


Not suggesting they should be bred, but do you know why they're considered bad?


----------



## Jax08

Why are Livers considered very bad? Yes the color is not in the standard but they do pop up in good litters. Nothing is "bad" unless you are breeding out of the standard purposely. The breeder of my male had a liver in one of her litters. That dog is doing sport and living a good life. He just won't be bred.


----------



## Kathrynil

@ *Jax08*:









Blue & Panda German Shepherds for Sale in Florida


Ruskin House of Shepherds is proud to be an AKC registered Breeder of purebred Blue & Panda German Shepherds in Florida. Click here to view our handsome adult males!



www.ruskinhouseofshepherds.com












AKC White & Liver German Shepherds for Sale in Florida


Check out our current AKC registered, purebred Female Adults here at Ruskin House of Shepherds in a variety of colors including White, Liver & Panda. Click here to see more!



www.ruskinhouseofshepherds.com





The first few look okay, but scroll down and you'll get blues, husky colored ones, SOLID LIVERS, and total panda everywhere. Not to mention to the prong collars so loose that you could take it off the dog's head with two inches of room to spare. Talk about unprofessional!

(this drives me really nuts.)

*Whiteshepherds*: "Coat Colors that are: "Pale or Washed Out, Blues, Livers are Serious Faults" -http://vonkazmaier.com/?id=689 (a professional GSD site)

Marked as "other" in AKC registrations. Don't know why liver is bad, it just isn't recommended or liked among good breeders or the AKC.


----------



## Kathrynil

I think it's crazy, but I'm very opinionated when it comes to breeding of GSDs.


----------



## Jax08

I think before having an opinion, you need to understand the why.

First, I keep my prong collar loose depending on what I'm doing. Second, I don't need to look at the links. I know what colors are standard, what is not and why. The only reason liver and blues are not accepted is the leather on a shepherd has to be black. Liver and blues have faded leather. Their noses are either grey or brown depending on the color. LIver and blue come from a dilute gene. Liver is a dilute. Blue is a double dilute. Some people think the blue comes with skin issues but that is not true. It may in other breeds but not in the GSD.

Again - anyone that breeds purposely for dogs not of the standard is not a good thing. Color, size, working ability, etc. However, the colors can pop up on litters from good breeders because those are recessive genes that are part of our breed. It doesn't make the dog bad. Just means they shouldn't be bred. My male's father has had a liver pop up in a litter. He's the 2015 WUSV champion. It happens sometimes and good breeders put those dogs in homes that won't breed them.


----------



## Kathrynil

I've heard that they have to have black noses. Is this what you mean by leather?


----------



## Jax08

Kathrynil said:


> I've heard that they have to have black noses. Is this what you mean by leather?


Nose, paw pads are "leather"


----------



## Kathrynil

I kind of thought so.
I'm not saying dogs who are not within breed standard should be disposed of or anything, I'm just saying that the people that breed those pop-ups are really unprofessional and that I do not believe that is good.

Also, if you have a prong collar on a working dog that is so loose that it is lying on the shoulders with inches to spare, that is someone who has not learned how to used a prong collar, or who is not taking it off after a training lesson. That. Is bad.


----------



## Jax08

Breed Standards | United Schutzhund Clubs of America


The United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the “Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)” in Germany. USCA is a member of the “World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs” and...




www.germanshepherddog.com


----------



## Kathrynil

Read it. Does the USCA go my the AKC standards, or do they have their own?


----------



## Jax08

The USCA goes by the SV standard. The SV is the German Club who sets the standard. I have no idea what the AKC standards are. They aren't the breed club so it's irrelevant to me but I have heard they differ from the SV standard.


----------



## Kathrynil

oh. I thought the AKC was the main club. I guess it's not.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Kathrynil said:


> Marked as "other" in AKC registrations.


The AKC registration form has a section for color. I guess someone can write down "other" (??) but the AKC does provide data for the following colors in the GSD breed; Bi-Color, Black, Black/Cream, Black/Red, Black/Silver, Black/Tan, Blue, Gray, Liver, Sable, Tan, White



Kathrynil said:


> They are very slack with their standards compared to USCA and SV.


The content of the SV vs AKC breed standards aren't all that different, they're just formatted differently.


----------



## Jax08

Nope. AKC is ONLY a breed registry in the U.S. GSDCA is the GSD club in the U.S. SV is the breed club in Germany. USCA is a sport club that follows the SV standards and regulations.

And then there is the FCI which is a whole other story.

In Germany, all sables are called gray. Black/tans and bi colors are just black and tans. The Americans seem to feel the need to add a ton of variations (cream, red, silver, tan. red sable, black sable, grey sable).


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Jax08 said:


> Nope. AKC is ONLY a breed registry in the U.S. GSDCA is the GSD club in the U.S. SV is the breed club in Germany. USCA is a sport club that follows the SV standards and regulations.
> 
> And then there is the FCI which is a whole other story.


For Kathrynil - 
Lots of differences between these organizations. 
The AKC is an all breed registry more similar to the German Kennel Club, Canadian Kennel Club etc. than the SV. 
Both the GSDCA and SV are breed clubs but only the SV has a registry. (for GSD's)
The FCI is made up of national kennel clubs, not a registry at all.


----------



## Kathrynil

Whiteshepherds said:


> The AKC registration form has a section for color. I guess someone can write down "other" (??) but the AKC does provide data for the following colors in the GSD breed; Bi-Color, Black, Black/Cream, Black/Red, Black/Silver, Black/Tan, Blue, Gray, Liver, Sable, Tan, White


The AKC disqualifies any white dogs in their competitions. The USCA strictly condemns dogs who are any of these colors and states that clearly in their standard.

"Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified." AKC breed standard



http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf



Take a look at the standard for the USCA too, and you'll see the same thing. No Pandas, no livers, no blues, no anything but the norm.


----------



## dogma13

*Since white is a disqualifying color under the German Shepherd Dog standard, why would I want to own one?*
As with any German Shepherd, responsible ownership is called for. However, once you have chosen the German Shepherd as your breed, unless you are specifically purchasing your German Shepherd Dog for AKC conformation competition, there is no reason not to own a white. As stated herein, the white German Shepherd is fully eligible for AKC and CKC registration and for all AKC and CKC obedience competitions and awards. The color of your dog is a matter of personal preference. Many people who are not influenced by the prejudice against the white coated dog would actually choose a white dog for its sheer beauty and presence.


----------



## Kathrynil

dogma13 said:


> *Since white is a disqualifying color under the German Shepherd Dog standard, why would I want to own one?*
> As with any German Shepherd, responsible ownership is called for. However, once you have chosen the German Shepherd as your breed, unless you are specifically purchasing your German Shepherd Dog for AKC conformation competition, there is no reason not to own a white. As stated herein, the white German Shepherd is fully eligible for AKC and CKC registration and for all AKC and CKC obedience competitions and awards. The color of your dog is a matter of personal preference. Many people who are not influenced by the prejudice against the white coated dog would actually choose a white dog for its sheer beauty and presence.


@dogma13:
i'm not saying there isn't. Sure you can own a white dog. I'm not condemning that. The AKC is not showing them however, so if your dog is in a show home, that's a different ballgame.
White dogs are very beautiful and I really like them, but I wouldn't own them if I was going to show them at all. That's where the standard starts to matter.
Liver dogs are kind of ugly though, unless they are English Setters. Then I think they look pretty. But a liver GSD? Yuck!


----------



## Jax08

Kathrynil said:


> The AKC disqualifies any white dogs in their competitions. The USCA strictly condemns dogs who are any of these colors and states that clearly in their standard.
> 
> "Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified." AKC breed standard
> 
> 
> 
> http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Take a look at the standard for the USCA too, and you'll see the same thing. No Pandas, no livers, no blues, no anything but the norm.



We are all well aware that these colors are not in the standard. Having a color that is not in standard does not mean the dogs can not be registered in the U.S. by the AKC (which is ONLY a registry). 

The USCA standard is the SV standard. The SV is the mother club for all other German Shepherd clubs. The words "strictly condemns" is a bit over the top. The USCA is a GSD sport club which follows the SV standards. The USCA does not disallow any dog from competing in their trials regardless of breed or color with the exception of the USCA Nationals which can only be German Shepherds.. If I had a liver, I could trial that dog and take him to nationals if he had the ability. Personally, I think the blues and livers are gorgeous. Especially the solid blues. 

The white German Shepherds are called Berger Blanc Suisse in Switzerland and are their own breed. Some people like them and that's fine. To each their own. I think there are more important things to worry about than whether the dog is white or not. Like DM, bloat, HD, ED, etc. We have some major health issues prevalent in our breed that we should be more concerned about.


----------



## dogma13

It's ok to have a personal preference regarding colors,coat types,show line,working line,etc.Let's try to be sensitive to others with preferences different from our own.It's offensive to other members,though I trust that wasn't your intention.


----------



## Kathrynil

QUOTE="dogma13, post: 9217538, member: 236897"]
It's ok to have a personal preference regarding colors,coat types,show line,working line,etc.Let's try to be sensitive to others with preferences different from our own.It's offensive to other members,though I trust that wasn't your intention. 
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm sorry if I'm not being sensitive. That was not my intention in the least.

Whew. I think I'm out of argument. I didn't know that white shepherds were their own breed! that's pretty cool.

@Jax08: In the USCA you can, not the AKC. They disqualify for white. The AKC can register them, but they may not show and must register as "other".

Wow, what a rabbit trail!! I don't think we're even talking about pandas anymore!


----------



## Kathrynil

That was my first halfway decent, semi-reasonable, not extremely negative argument! Isn't that great? (I'm just joking, but actually, it probably is)


----------



## Jax08

I never said they could show in the AKC ring. I wouldn't know if they could or not since I don't participate in AKC conformation. They can however participate in any performance venue other than conformation. Herding, agility, nosework, etc. They are not allowed to enter an SV show either but the could do IGP if they chose. I guess if your only focus is conformation then you wouldn't want a dog that can't enter those venues. I do believe they can show in UKC though. Many people with all breeds are switching to UKC because it doesn't have the politics involved and they are judging the dogs, not how important the owner is.


----------



## Kathrynil

And you won it, Jax08.

I was talking about the AKC, not the SV or UKC.


----------



## Jax08

I didn't know it was a contest. I thought you wanted information.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Temple Grandin in her many works often refers to research that demonstrates that black leather and mouths in animals has been proven to be linked not only to a physical hardiness but to mental and emotional stability over that of comparable animals of washed out colors with extreme examples being albinos as being the weakest. 

If memory serves me correctly, white GSDs weren't always the red headed step children with the AKC and breed club as long as the leather was black. DQ would come later but I never heard as to why.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Kathrynil said:


> In the USCA you can, not the AKC. They disqualify for white. The AKC can register them, but they may not show and must register as "other".


Not sure what you mean when you say the AKC can register them and must register as other? Register as other what?


----------



## Sunsilver

The main reason I think Pandas shouldn't be bred is because they can't breed true. The Panda gene is a dominant gene. There are NO double Pandas (Pandas with 2 genes for the colouration) Apparently double Panda is a LETHAL gene combination.

Yeah, what are the ethics of breeding for a lethal gene? Hmm. The blue merle gene is very harmful or lethal in its double form too, but many breeds have merle dogs.

Well, to each his/her own. The story of Frankie and her offspring is certainly a very interesting study in genetics!


----------



## Kyrielle

Sunsilver said:


> The main reason I think Pandas shouldn't be bred is because they can't breed true. The Panda gene is a dominant gene. There are NO double Pandas (Pandas with 2 genes for the colouration) Apparently double Panda is a LETHAL gene combination.
> 
> Yeah, what are the ethics of breeding for a lethal gene? Hmm. The blue merle gene is very harmful or lethal in its double form too, but many breeds have merle dogs.
> 
> Well, to each his/her own. The story of Frankie and her offspring is certainly a very interesting study in genetics!


I think Panda Shepherds can only be bred with permission from the original breeder who discovered the gene. This is due to genetic studies taking place at UC Davis. The most recent study was conducted in 2016.

I don't think it'll become common practice. The breeder from which we got our recent addition is breeding a Panda Shepherd with her various females. The breedings appear to be experimental in nature. Ex: What happens with a Panda/White line and a Black shepherd line? What happens with a Panda/White line and a Black & Tan/White line?

Whether that's ethical or not, advances in a breed or creations of new breeds cannot occur without such experimentation. After all, the GSD wouldn't exist if experimentation in shepherd-dog combinations had not occurred.


----------



## Sunsilver

Kyrielle, I hate to disillusion you, and it would be really nice if what you said about carefully controlled breeding is true, but it ain't. As with all unusual GSD colours, Pandas are being bred and marketed by unscrupulous breeders who are just in it for the money. Fortunately, the novelty of the Panda colour seems to have worn off a bit, and I don't see as many ads for them as I used to.

Another trend I've seen lately that really concerns me is pictures of really cute dwarf German shepherds being posted on Facebook. Of course everyone oohs and ahhs, and says "OOOh, how CUTE, I want one!" without having a clue that this is a serious genetic problem, and most dwarfs have very sparse coats as well as other serious physical problems and suffer all of their lives due to their condition.

Fortunately, dwarfism causes such serious physical problems that I doubt deliberately breeding for dwarfs will ever become a thing, but with people being so very greed, you just never know...


----------



## Kathrynil

*@ Sunsilver*:
So true. That is exactly what is happening.

*@ Jax08*: I wasn't making it a contest! I was just trying to make the atmosphere a little more light-hearted, if you will. I did want more info, and now I got it. Now I have a reason behind my opinion. Now I know where the AKC gets their standard. Now I know a lot more. Thank you for giving me that information, and in the process I learned a lot.
I was just trying to have a little fun and slow down the argument, which I thought was getting a little hype. (read dogma13s post) I was hoping for a less negative response to my joking.

[B]@Whiteshepherds[/B]: The breeder or person registering has to write down:"other" in the color section. I believe (I'm saying "believe" because I don't know how they format their registration sheets) that there is like a list of the colors, and they don't include panda or the whites. Let me specify that I said "believe" because I've never seen one. I've just read that that is what they do. They don't take "panda" as an answer for color. I see you like white shepherds so I will not say anything more about white dogs or I might offend you, and I don't want to do that at all. If I have, I'm very sorry. I am not being very sensitive. I should have read your profile title before I said all that stuff about white dogs.


----------



## Jax08

@Kathrynil - I think you would enjoy and benefit from going to a club of some sort. Whether it's AKC or an IGP club. You are like a sponge. Clubs love young people who want to learn.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Kathrynil said:


> [B]@Whiteshepherds[/B]: The breeder or person registering has to write down:"other" in the color section. I believe (I'm saying "believe" because I don't know how they format their registration sheets) that there is like a list of the colors, and they don't include panda or the whites. Let me specify that I said "believe" because I've never seen one. I've just read that that is what they do. They don't take "panda" as an answer for color. I see you like white shepherds so I will not say anything more about white dogs or I might offend you, and I don't want to do that at all. If I have, I'm very sorry. I am not being very sensitive. I should have read your profile title before I said all that stuff about white dogs.


Haven't been offended at all, no worries. 

What you read about how whites are registered is incorrect. GSD's with white coats are registered just like any other GSD in the AKC. You write in a color where the form says "Color______" (AKC registration forms are online, you can look at them if you're really interested.)

To the best of my knowledge, the reason they don't accept "panda" as a color is because it's a pattern description, not a color. It's the same reason you couldn't put saddle back as a color, it would be listed as black/tan, black/red etc.


----------



## Kathrynil

@Whiteshepherds: That makes sense. I wonder what I heard then? Who knows; I hear a lot of things. 

@Jax08: I like being likened unto a sponge. That's a very interesting way to put it.  I will definitely look around. I've always wanted to get into a club and even compete with Kias when he gets older. 
PS. You aren't angry with me are you? I assure you I wasn't trying to make this a contest. I was just trying to slow it down a but I may have done it the wrong way.


----------



## Jax08

Kathrynil said:


> PS. You aren't angry with me are you? I assure you I wasn't trying to make this a contest. I was just trying to slow it down a but I may have done it the wrong way.



lol I"m not angry. Read your PM's. I sent you info. There are facebook IPO pages as well if you are interested. People can get a bit uptight there so have a thick skin.


----------



## Kathrynil

Just did. Thanks a lot. I can't wait to see if I can find a club I can make. Question: Do you have to be actively doing shutzhund to get into a club, or is it a place where you can come and learn how to do the shutzhund training? I have know Idea how I'm going to get Kias into the obedience stuff on my own.


----------



## Kathrynil

Don't do facebook, and i probably won't ever really gwt onto it, but I can email and stuff, so I'll contact anyone through email if I find something.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

ucdavis panda posterdog somewhat resembles "german shepherds 1880" pictured on pages 116 117 118, so I don't know if "new mutation" is necessarily accurate? come to think of it nores kinda looked like a tri-color? maybe? Lots of population isolation per type so east x west x highline x akc could, theoretically, throwback some very old time stuff via common ancestry. According to wiki this was the sire and this was the dam. Seems odd nobody bothered to publish a foto of such an amazing dam, but I can't find one anywhere?


----------



## Kazel

berno von der seeweise said:


> ucdavis panda posterdog somewhat resembles "german shepherds 1880" pictured on pages 116 117 118, so I don't know if "new mutation" is necessarily accurate? come to think of it nores kinda looked like a tri-color? maybe? Lots of population isolation per type so east x west x highline x akc could, theoretically, throwback some very old time stuff via common ancestry. According to wiki this was the sire and this was the dam. Seems odd nobody bothered to publish a foto of such an amazing dam, but I can't find one anywhere?


It is a dominant gene that was recognized as a new mutation in the KIT gene. Mutations happen constantly, they just aren't always so visible. 

If you want a potential hidden throwback gene look in brindle german shepherds. I'm fairly certain that was an introduced breed such as a dutchie considering it went from being noexistant to people suddenly having full brindle dogs. But people seem to have fun hanging papers to make money on "rare" colors. Just look at the mess that is silver labs and people still try to argue it was natural.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

interesting you mention brindle. The panda peds go back to nores, and he threw brindle as well as white









the kriminalpolizei and boxberg lines were essentially "foundations" of the breed as we know it today, but I don't disagree w/ your paper hanging money maker comment. To it I'll add that "research" is primarily grant driven...



Kazel said:


> Mutations happen constantly, they just aren't always so visible.


in my mind I sort of imagine like little molecules constantly reacting to their environment

but I've also done an* INSANE *  amount of inbreeding within closed populations (_not just dogs_) and have observed some pretty astonishing throwbacks in the process. Don't underestimate the power of ahnenverlust-koeffizient (aka AVK). If you whittle closed populations down narrow enough (_ie; highline, east german, west german, akc/gsdca_) a remaining "common ancestor" on both sides of the ped will express when you cross them. I've seen it happen with my own eyes in several species.

I'm not insisting panda did, only that it may have been possible

see; pedigree collapse


----------

