# Aggression Advice



## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Hello. I'm really glad I found this forum. I'll post pix of my dog soon. So, six months ago my family (which includes two kids, age 9 and 12) adopted a white GS rescue. Zeus is about 2 years old and has a number of scars on his face. He was found wandering and covered in oil or grease. The rescue is top notch - they started training him, had him neutered, got his shots done, chipped, etc. We saw him on line and having really adored our previous GS mix, we went to meet him.

Needless to say we took him home, knowing we'd have a lot of work to do and that training is critical for a dog with this kind of power and determination. We had some issues with housebreaking but we're 95% through that now. I hired a dog walker who is also a trainer (a very good one I think), and started training ourselves and the dog. Fortunately, I have the resources to spend whatever is necessary to get this right. 

From the start he was very friendly with other dogs. We take him to dog "camp" at least once a week where he socializes all day, as well as the dog park. He also from the start appeared very friendly to humans. I had no qualms about people coming up to pet him as he'd be very friendly, typically leaning his body against them like a cat and enjoying being petted. Looking back, I think I was missing some signs of aggression. And, he also seemed anxious. Definitely had some separation anxiety, as well as some fear of the dark and definitely major fear of fireworks in the distance and loud noises. BUt I'm giving the cliff notes version here...

A few times my kids had friends over. Zeus was friendly to them, but one thing that was concerning was if he was "spooked" by them running around, he would run at them and bark aggressively, only for a few seconds. But I told the kids to make sure he knew if they were coming and not to run around and that seemed to deal with it. So my son had one of his friends over who from the start appeared very scared of the dog. I noticed the dog acting somewhat dominant with him and worked on him getting the dog to sit and giving treats, but the kid was definitely super scared. At one point, he ran away from the dog, and the dog chased him and nipped him in the butt. I honestly thought he was just playing with the boy though. 

Next time the boy comes over (I know, this was irresponsible) I notice the dog being clearly dominant and aggressive with him, and I keep them separated. At one point I was playing banjo and turned away a second and Zeus had slipped out of the room. A few seconds later I hear a snarling barking I had never heard and that scared the tar out of me. I find Zeus on the kid's arm. He only gave the boy a little scratch, but I thought he was mauling the boy from the sound of it. It scared some sense into me and made me realize I hadn't truly appreciated the potential for Zeus to be aggressive and to cause harm. For the sake of space I'm leaving out some other important info that I can fill in if it's helpful.

So here's what I'm doing, and I want to get advice from you too:
1) we are acclimating him slowly to a muzzle, per our trainer's instructions. Right now we basically just give him treats when he has it on and extending the time he wears it. But we're not even at the point where we can clip it on. My plan is to get him used to wearing it and then always have it on when walking and when guests are over.
2) crate training, so another option when guests are over is to have him stay in his crate. Our trainer also is working with us on this but it is also slow going and I don't expect to be closing him in for many months down the road.
3) still doing basic training with the trainer (sit, stay, down, leave it) but focusing moreso on the previous two points. He is continuing to get a lot better at these basic commands.
4) No more kids over until I figure out whether we can muzzle him or crate him, and that means probably months with no kids as guests. I don't let kids pet him anymore, and I warn adults that he can be aggressive. People ask to pet him CONSTANTLY as he is a beautiful specimen. He's been fine with other adults who have been over who he knows, but we're going to work on focusing him on commands when others are entering the house.
5) he play bites a lot and we're basically just ignoring him and turning away from him when he does it. He seems to get the message after a few bites.
6) continued socializing with other dogs. But I want to continue to socialize him with humans, and I'm not sure of the best approach to this.

Anyway sorry for the long-winded message. Any advice would be appreciated, and I can give more background on other aggressive behavior down the road. I really want Zeus to be able to stay with us and want to know I will be able to have him control himself and not hurt people with the proper training and equipment (aka muzzle). Right now I'm doubtful, but I'm going to work hard at it. Thanks!!!


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Oh and to add we're also working on recall and generally doing the 'nothing in life is free' strategy with him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Six months is generally long enough of a honey moon period with a young dog like this. The scars on his face, dog inflicted? abuse from humans? We have no way of knowing, although he seems comfortable around strange dogs. 

Two things I want to mention here:
1. The dog showed a LOT of bite inhibition. IF the child had only a scratch with a lot of snarling and noise, the dog could have caused horrible bruising and lacerations/puncture wounds. This is no bunny rabbit here. He is 80 pounds of muscle and teeth. He can take down an adult criminal and manage him.

2. This snarling growling bark and hold was not play, and should not be ignored. 

We can guess from now until forever whether this dog was taught to bark and hold, was tormented by a boy, we just don't know.

With fear of fireworks and loud noises, the dog does not have a solid nerve base. But the dog left you to go out where he knew the kid was and that engaged the kid, not in play. Interesting.

This is what I would do:
Your kids live there and should be able to be kids and have friends over. The dog is a second class citizen. Right now he is unsafe around other people and kids (both). I would not leave a muzzle on him whenever you have people over. I would, case by case determine whether he will be out or not. If you have kids over, Crate him in the basement or garage where you can lock the door to the area. For now. Else, YOU have him out on lead, connected to YOU the entire time. 

For adults as he hasn't shown an issue yet, keep him out, but have him with you. And watch closely. IF you cannot watch closely, put him in his kennel. 

I would cut out the dog park. Dog parks are dangerous, yes, but lots of people and even some GSDs do fine in them. Your dog is not having a problem there. But, you are having an issue with this dog. Playing doggy games with other dogs is completely unnecessary and can make his dependence to you and bond with you/his humans less, and his play rougher. I think it is a bad idea for a dog with aggression concerns to be playing in dog parks.

Management first -- keep the kids safe, and everyone else
Training -- lots of training. Train around people and dogs. Train in classes. Build the bond.
Exercise -- Yep, get him used to lots of walks/runs if possible. It will help him with training and bonding. Exercise his brain and his body.
Leadership -- Go ahead with NILIF. Training helps with leadership if it is consistent, with follow through, fair, etc. Leadership helps the dog understand that he must look to you for good things, for bad things, for everything. 
Socialization comes after the dog trusts you. Then he can be positively socialized to all kinds of situations and people. When the leadership is down and the training demonstrates the formation of good bonding, then you can socialize him to things and expect him to trust you enough to take his cues from you.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Thanks so much for the thoughtful response. Some reactions.



selzer said:


> Six months is generally long enough of a honey moon period with a young dog like this. The scars on his face, dog inflicted? abuse from humans? We have no way of knowing, although he seems comfortable around strange dogs.
> HE IS DEFINITELY COMFORTABLE AROUND OTHER DOGS. DOESN'T SHOW FEAR THAT I CAN SEE AROUND THEM. THOUGH, AT THE DOG PARK, I HAVE SEEN HIM NERVOUS A COUPLE OF TIMES AROUND SOME DOGS THAT WERE VERY BOSSY/AGGRESSIVE. GOOD POINT ABOUT THE DOG PARKS. HE DOESN'T TEND TO PLAY WITH THE OTHER DOGS ANYWAY. HE USUALLY GOES TO SAY HI TO THE HUMANS!
> 
> Two things I want to mention here:
> ...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

just a tidbit on speeding up crate training...

feed every meal in the crate... door open.
continue to feed every meal in the crate... door closed then let him out as soon as he's done.
repeat, but extend the time that you leave the door shut.
my boy took to his crate like a charm this way... still runs to the empty spot (crate has been gone well over a year) when it's time to eat.

I do all of my home training as if it's no big deal... not a ton of focus or build up, just, this is where you eat and now you can come out. once comfortable the duration or location of the crate never mattered anymore.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

I'd like to hear the other important info you have to share. 

From what you've stated so far, I think removing the exercise and enjoyment Zeus gets at the dog park may be not at all necessary and could be detrimental if the vigorous exercise and positive stimulation he gets there isn't substituted with something equally beneficial to him. 

Just fyi, there is an ongoing debate/argument on this website about dog parks. There are those who advise never to go, not worth the risks. Others advise evaluate the park and the dog on a case by case basis, it can be of great benefit.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

fodder said:


> just a tidbit on speeding up crate training...
> 
> Feed every meal in the crate... Door open.
> Continue to feed every meal in the crate... Door closed then let him out as soon as he's done.
> ...


ive been feeding him in it for a couple of weeks now. Just havent been closing the gate yet. That part is coming soon. He goes in on his own at other times now and is definitely starting to dig it. I do other stuff like hide treats in it and leave his bone in it and it all seems to help


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

viking said:


> I'd like to hear the other important info you have to share.
> 
> From what you've stated so far, I think removing the exercise and enjoyment Zeus gets at the dog park may be not at all necessary and could be detrimental if the vigorous exercise and positive stimulation he gets there isn't substituted with something equally beneficial to him.
> 
> Just fyi, there is an ongoing debate/argument on this website about dog parks. There are those who advise never to go, not worth the risks. Others advise evaluate the park and the dog on a case by case basis, it can be of great benefit.


Thanks I'll have to read up. Dog parks have been a good experience for us thusfar, but I can also see how they could be seen as dangerous. There are a lot of clowns with potentially dangerous dogs, and who knows who has decided to show up at the dog park on a given day! But the day camp has been a more useful tool for us from that perspective anyway. It just takes more of a bite out of the wallet! PS I'll provide more background tomorrow when I'm more awake!


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

@viking, so here are some additional behaviors that provide more context:
- when we got him he very quickly attached to me and had to be glued to me or he'd get a bit anxious, whining etc. However, that seems to have settled and he now spends lots of time with other family members, and he doesn't have to sleep next to my bed - he actually leaves the room at night.
- I walk my son to the bus stop in the morning and when Zeus sees the school bus he goes absolutely bonkers barking at it and lunging towards it. My guess is he's trying to protect his "brother" (my son) who is getting into the big yellow monster. He has barked in a similar way when going to see my son play soccer, to the point that we can't take him to soccer anymore. He once lunged at someone who walked by when he was agitated like that. I worked on distractions when the bus is coming but he loses control when the bus gets close, so for now I'm going to leave him at home instead of taking him to the bus stop. Trainer said try to avoid agitated situations for now.
- Yesterday someone got out of a car by the bus stop and Zeus started barking aggressively at him. Distractions didn't work until the guy was headed into his house. I assume it was because he was worked up because of the bus.
- One time when he was barking at the school bus I placed my hand, which was in a glove, by the side of his face. He turned and nipped it. Not hard but it wasn't playing either. He has also turned and bitten his leash when worked up at the bus stop.
- He's also has barked like that when my son plays ball with other kids. But Zeus was also friendly to the other kids. His bark is more high pitched when he sees my son playing ball and I'm not sure if that's a "let me play too" bark.
- Had a friend and his family over once. My friend is a very big guy who loves dogs. Zeus immediately got "bossy" with him and my friend said that Zeus bit him at one point. I did catch him mouthing my friend's hand. This was before we had an inkling that he could be a biter (other than a play biter), and my friend's kids were hanging all over Zeus. Zeus appeared totally fine with it. But he clearly didn't like my friend. One possibility is we had Zeus over to my friend's house once briefly, on the 4th of July and Zeus got scared of fireworks being lit off (so much so he jumped into my lap), so he may associate my friend with that incident.
- A couple of other incidents of him barking aggressively at people include once when my wife was walking him and a guy got very close. He also snapped at the guy. Also I was talking to a public works employee in my neighborhood who is a friend of mine. At one point Zeus started barking and lunged a bit. My friend likes dogs and has no fear and when he didn't react, Zeus settled back down. 
- I have a number of neighbors who know him and come up to say hi to him and he is very affectionate with them. I want to try and find out how I can still have those sort of interactions while keeping everyone safe. I've also had a babysitter who is in high school over with the kids and Zeus was fine with her. Do you think it's safe to keep doing that? I always have the option of kenneling him for the day/night.

Thanks everyone.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

oh and one more for context. We had a contractor over to quote us some prices on work. We asked if he was okay with dogs and he said fine. Zeus didn't bark at him or get mouthy with him, but he was bossy. In fact, when the contractor was sitting at the table talking to us, Zeus would walk up to him and put his head up between the guy's arms, which we resting on the table. We'd correct him and he was fine, but it was dominant behavior, and he had that dominant "look", with chest out, ears up, etc.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

bump


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Yeah, it definitely sounds like a problem, one that needs vigilant attention on your part. I think Selzer's advice about keeping him on leash inside the home when kids are visiting and carefully evaluating him when adult visitors are present on a case by case basis is wise. I'd really have a hawk eye on him though and the minute you see him stiffening up, winding up into a dominant posture I'd leash him and place him into a down stay that he must keep. Your going to be training first, interacting with your guests only secondarily for awhile.

I get the impression that he may just need training to learn appropriate behavior rather than a temperament defect that will require lifelong management but I am no expert on dog-on-human aggression. Obviously, you've seen enough to put you on notice there's a real issue here. As Selzer pointed out, bonding (trust, training) with him is really going to be the thing that paves your way to success with this. 

I don't see anything from what you've stated that makes me think Zeus will fail providing that you commit 100% to him. That's a tall order for some people because it really will require you to be 'on' with him at all times for the foreseeable future. Does your trainer have experience with GSDs? I think that's a factor in this too, it can only help.

You've got a big challenge before you but if you truly commit to it, persevere and see it through you can have a relationship with him you really will cherish all your life, even long after you've outlived him. There are a lot of great folks on this site that will lend support, encouragement and especially advice when you need it. Very best of luck and keep us all posted!


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

@viking our trainer hasn't indicated that he has worked with GSDs before. Based on my limited knowledge he seems very good and he was describing issues associated with GSDs, including their reactivity, and ways to take control of the situation. Z is getting much better with look/sit and retaining focus on me if someone comes by us when walking, and the like, in a fairly short time of training.

I like the idea of the leash to maintain control in the house and see how it goes case-by-case. I will try it and discuss with my trainer. I will continue to give updates and hopefully you can continue to give advice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> Thanks I'll have to read up. Dog parks have been a good experience for us thusfar, but I can also see how they could be seen as dangerous. There are a lot of clowns with potentially dangerous dogs, and who knows who has decided to show up at the dog park on a given day! But the day camp has been a more useful tool for us from that perspective anyway. It just takes more of a bite out of the wallet! PS I'll provide more background tomorrow when I'm more awake!


Well ...I'm on the record here as being pretty firmly anti Dog Park 

You appear to be aware of the more "obvious" dangers of a "Dog Park" but I would suggest that your missing one!

As "I" see it the problems "could" be:
1) Other dogs
2) Other owners
3) Unwanted learned behaviours.

I also would suggest you stop taking "this" dog to a "Dog Park" see number #3

To expand ... if your "undisciplined" dog gets to "practice" running around playing with a pack of dogs, he learns that "what you say doesn't matter!"

That is what a dog can "learn" at the "Dog Park." When you take him out and start "working" with him on the streets, he "practices" what he has learned, that makes "your" job harder.

If you can call him back when he is in the mist of playing and comes when called ...then never mind! 

This is just a "theory" on my part, as I don't do Dog Parks as a general rule. 

Rocky has gone for "proofing" and he does not play with other dogs he follows me around and "ignores" them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you spoken to the rescue regarding this?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

My GSD was adopted as a stray- stable, sweet, beautiful, perfect. I've had her 8 years now, never regretted adopting her, never. 

I agree to some extent when it comes to "rescuing" dogs with real aggression problems. If they don't have an owner, euth might be best. But, of the dogs I've had, four were adopted from shelter or found as strays. None had major health issues, none had any temperament issues. One was the best dog I'll ever have.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Gosh, I might regret this because I don't really want to wade into the 'dog park good/bad' fray but I kinda feel like I need to state a couple things that have been our (Hans' and my) experience. 

Hans did learn A LOT from other dogs at the beach we go to daily. I was especially discerning about playmates. Granted its a huge swath of beach, not a little fenced area so I'm not speaking to the latter type of set up. Also, my boy had socialization with other dog issues not human-dog issues but nevertheless the human-dog relationships and dog-dog relationships were necessarily intertwined there and he learned very good things. 

Its like anything else. He has learned the outstanding good citizen behaviors as well as what not to do. I fully recognize this is largely due to the exemplary people and their dogs who show up there daily, like us. We're all pretty committed to our dogs.

Hans developed and perfected his recall at the beach. I never 'trained' it. And yep, he'll break from a run, a fun-scrum, an 'anything' to come immediately to me or just off what he was going for, depending on my call. It is probably fantasy thinking on my part, but I kinda think his beautiful recall is a result of him watching so many other dog owners helplessly calling their dogs and getting no response. I watched him watching it. There's even an amazing brag story I have about him herding back two wayward labs who took off into restricted bird sanctuary territory.

Anyway, yes, they learn from other dogs, so? Put them in with the right crowd. 

Oh, and he's a rescue.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

viking said:


> Gosh, I might regret this because I don't really want to wade into the 'dog park good/bad' fray but I kinda feel like I need to state a couple things that have been our (Hans' and my) experience.
> 
> Hans did learn A LOT from other dogs at the beach we go to daily. I was especially discerning about playmates. Granted its a huge swath of beach, not a little fenced area so I'm not speaking to the latter type of set up. Also, my boy had socialization with other dog issues not human-dog issues but nevertheless the human-dog relationships and dog-dog relationships were necessarily intertwined there and he learned very good things.
> 
> ...


 Millions of people go to the Dog Park everyday and nothing happens! 

I know of two Boxers, one is totally blind and the other is partially blind and needed 15,000 dollars worth of reconstructive surgery. Yes out of millions of dogs two is nothing but those two dogs mean the world to those now tortured dog owners!

So yes just those two and yeah Bear Bear gunned down by an off duty cop in a Dog Park!! That happened years ago ...the dog is still dead ..just saying. And my two friends and there Boxer had a run in with an unarmed wing nut owner in our local Dog Park.

Don't know the details of the 15k dog, poster did not say?? I do know the totally blind dog was a bad "Dog Park" encounter.

In my view it's a risk I'm not willing to take and "I" advise others to do as I do and as many "Pro's" advise ...just say "No" to Dog Parks!

But as always there is always "that guy." So if it works for you go for it.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> when the contractor was sitting at the table talking to us, Zeus would walk up to him and put his head up between the guy's arms, which we resting on the table. We'd correct him and he was fine, but it was dominant behavior, and he had that dominant "look", with chest out, ears up, etc.


Why not verbally correct the dog when it starts showing these signs. Be strict and let the dog you mean it. Send him into bed and return to coversation.

An issue you may face is dog thinking it is center of attention. You need to show him he is behind and under every one else in the house. 

This starts with being aloof to the dog and everybody playing him less attention so he can relax and be comfortable in his role.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

@ Chip18
"But as always there is always "that guy." So if it works for you go for it. "

Lol  That wasn't so bad.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Have you spoken to the rescue regarding this?


Nope but that's a good idea. Silly that I didn't think of it. The rescue is a well-funded, high-quality operation.

Re: the question about the contractor, at that time we hadn't started training yet. Under current circumstances, I probably would have kept him on lead, but I would have made him sit or lie down and stay. We did try to ignore him. 

Re: the dog park. I'm going to take him and use it as an opportunity to practice his recall . I appreciate the warnings and agree I need to watch him like a hawk in that situation. One benefit I like though is he is very happy to go and greet the other humans in the park for some reason, and I need to find ways to socialize him with people given his current limitations at home.

Some updates, which I'll provide as we move along in his training:
- He's now reached the point where I can clip the muzzle on him for short periods, so hopefully in a month or so he'll be comfortable with it on for long periods.
- I've been able to close the door to his crate while he dines on some treats and he doesn't seem to mind. Little by little I will increase that.
- He's befriended a pair of Shiba Inus, and actually got in a submissive position for the female one! And she climbs on him and sniffs his ears. Super cute. So far he has a stellar record with other dogs.
- We had a neighbor over who is comfortable with Zeus but had never been in the house before and he was a total love with her. Barked at her until she came in then all good. Excellent.
- However, when walking in the woods with my son, a big dude with a big beard walked by us silently (he was wearing headphones) and Zeus lunged and barked aggressively. I wasn't able to get him to focus on me with commands/treats at all, until the guy was 20-30 yards away or so. As my friend who he bit was a similar build, maybe I'm seeing a pattern?
- But at the same time, I am able to get him to focus on me more and more easily when walking by (across the street) strangers and other dogs. Probably 50% now, which is a big improvement. My walker/trainer said he is noticing improvement in that respect as well.
- I have a theory that he is protective of my 9 year old son. At the end of last school year, when my daughter used to get on the school bus, Zeus didn't seem to mind the bus at all. And BTW he was friendly to the other parents and kids at the bus stop. But this year, as I said earlier, when the bus comes for my son, he goes NUTS. From the start my son played inappropriately with him, acting very silly, wrestling around with him, and being hyper. I've explained to him that the dog probably thinks of him like a puppy because of that and he needs to show more authority and less hyperness, which will help the dog calm down (I think). My son's starting to get better. My daughter from the start was excellent with showing calm authority with Zeus. And Zeus is way way better about doing commands given by my daughter than my son. Any thoughts about the hyper childish behavior making Zeus think he has to protect my son? Think about the "nervous" friend of my son that he clearly didn't like and ended up biting. Maybe that was protective? I'll try to use this log to keep track of triggers I think I'm seeing.

BTW that white shep in the graphic at the upper left of this webpage looks exactly like my Zeus! I guess the whites all look pretty similar.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Any thoughts about the hyper childish behavior making Zeus think he has to protect my son? Think about the "nervous" friend of my son that he clearly didn't like and ended up biting. Maybe that was protective? I'll try to use this log to keep track of triggers I think I'm seeing.


Definitely a childs excitement can be a trigger for a dog to get excited and do something inappropiate.

That excited child can be seen as weak in animal terms and so why the dog will protect it.

Dog will also step up if nobody is actively taking on the leader role. It is incapable of fulfilling this role though.

Dog can be naturally reactive too and need to be show how to act.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... I'm not real big on the whole putting a dog on a couch and figuring out what their "issues" are thing myself. I prefer "control" ... works for me.

I do see two of the things I would expect to see from a Dog Park dog here, an owner with "questionable" control of there dog and a dog taking what he practices doing at a Dog Park, "running around out of control with a pack of dogs" and learning that "what his handles says does not matter!"

So that's what "I" see but I could be wrong?? That being said "lectures" as such are not helpful! So I do have recommendations but if I am indeed correct about what dogs "can" learn from "Dog Parking" my recommendations will be harder for the "OP" to implement??

That being said the muzzle thing? Yes, I did that for awhile with my guy! I also walked my dog and did "Who Pet's my Puppy or Dog" I "showed" him how I expected him to behave and he got that. Once I had a better understanding of what he looked like when he was fine, I dropped the use of the muzzle. 

The muzzle also helps the dog to chill and it helps the owner to better relax, two things you should be aware of. 

In here you'll find lots of links lots of info, I'll point out "training calmness into a dog" and info on structured walks.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

And I don't remember if other dogs were a problem and if you make other dogs a source of "excitement" for a dog they may be a problem, but if you don't want them to be it would look like this:

Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

No idea how any of that works with a "Dog Park" dog however??

So my personal "beliefs" notwithstanding ... I hope this is useful for the OP??


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

An update:
- I called the rescue and spoke to the trainer. The first thing she told me was that she had recommended no children under 12 for this dog. Guess someone at the front desk didn't read their paperwork. Water under the bridge at this point. Secondly, she said he came in with fear, but relaxed after a while, so he definitely came in with some issues. Thirdly, she said she liked a lot of the the things the trainer was doing with us, but suggested someone more knowledgable.
- I spoke to that more knowledgeable person today and was extremely impressed. She also knew the dog as she was at the kennel when he was brought in. She said he had definitely been abused and also noted that speaking Spanish in front of him got him upset. Nice of the shelter to tell me both of those things as well. Gritting teeth and letting that go under the bridge, for now, as well.
- I am going to start working with this trainer who is a certified professional dog trainer, KA, specialized in aggression. She said take him to a vet and get him checked up, see if anything is causing pain. I did. Guess what?
- He has a shoulder injury. He's now on Remadil (sp?), and in two weeks if he is still having pain, it's X-Ray time.
- My wife was walking him in the dark and a jogger came up upon them unexpectedly. He lunged and almost got the jogger. Oy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Excellent. You are in the right hands now.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... I'm not real big on the whole putting a dog on a couch and figuring out what their "issues" are thing myself. I prefer "control" ... works for me.
> 
> I do see two of the things I would expect to see from a Dog Park dog here, an owner with "questionable" control of there dog and a dog taking what he practices doing at a Dog Park, "running around out of control with a pack of dogs" and learning that "what his handles says does not matter!"
> 
> ...


Yes quite helpful thanks. And BTW my new trainer-to-be shares the same philosophy as you re: dog parks. She said they're a no-no.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> Yes quite helpful thanks. And BTW my new trainer-to-be shares the same philosophy as you re: dog parks. She said they're a no-no.


LOL well that is not helpful for the "other side."


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Hey that reminds me, the vet today said that there are some who think white GSDs are more likely to be unstable, i.e. turn on a dime and bite without warning. Any credence to this?


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> Hey that reminds me, the vet today said that there are some who think white GSDs are more likely to be unstable, i.e. turn on a dime and bite without warning. Any credence to this?


Nope.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

viking said:


> Nope.


That's the answer I wanted!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If anything, whites are a bit more mild mannered from the ones I've experienced.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

So, we've called in the cavalry. I turned to an expert in dog aggression as well as a very well regarded trainer in our area. They both came together to evaluate the dog last night. I was pretty shocked how aggressive Z got with them, though they were able to predict just about every time what was going to set him off. They read him like a book. Some observations were that he was underfed/starved by his prior owner. While food is/was an amazing motivator for him, it doesn't create much of a positive association for him, so the owner probably just shoved a bowl of food into wherever he was being kept. His aggression is fear based, but he was surprisingly bold about pushing for more treats, and he'd get really nasty if they stopped with the high value treats. They observed that my and my wife's touch was the one thing that really seemed to relax him (by the end he was on his back getting his belly rubbed with both of them sitting at the table). I was amazed the difference too when they would ignore him and move slowly vs. a quick turn away, or engaging the dog in some way, which triggered the aggression. I was similarly amazed at the body language they showed me, like his dilated pupils, more rapid breathing, and unevenly held ears. I learned what a muzzle bump is, how it's a precursor to a bite, etc.

Also incredibly fascinating that all the people who can walk into my house without a peep from Z are people he met in the first 3 months with us. They called it the honeymoon period, and after that time, the window to that comfort tends to shut to new people.

Immediate work plan:
- training with a basket muzzle to keep everyone safe and allow for training without him on a lead (they think the fact I had him on lead amped him up). So now I need to introduce him to the basket muzzle, isntead of the nylon one I was making good progress with.
- More rapid crate training so we can crate him away when guests are over.
- Containing him to certain areas of the house during the day so he can't bark and scratch at the window as he's been doing.
- Creating positive associations with new people coming to the house. Anyone want to volunteer to be a guinea pig?  It's ok I have some friends who are suckers.

Giving me solace this morning was the fact I'm having him evaluated at All Good Dogs for overnight stays and he was sweet with the workers there this morning, who he's never met.

I'll keep a log so that those going through similar issues can follow. If I can get some improvement or management that is workable, we'll keep him!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks for the input.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP -- thanks for the follow up/up date AND thanks for taking advise and following through with it. This is so encouraging.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Just a little update in case it's helpful to others dealing with a similar situation. As I said before I'm working with a behaviorist and trainer.
- Zeus now wears a basket muzzle when outside and from time to time inside, just to get him used to it. He's about 90% comfortable with it now.
- I've got him to the point where he's okay closed in his crate for 15 minutes or so after his meal if he has his special "crate bone" (we just give it to him when he's in his crate). This weekend the crate goes into the basement and we start longer periods of leaving him in there. My hope is within a month or so I'll be able to crate him down there while I have guests over for short periods
- One challenge is I have to get him from being able to see out our front windows. Believe it or not (to give you a sense of how committed I am to this...or just crazy) I'm getting new windows with the shades built inside! LOL. But anyway, I understand why they don't want him barking at passers-by.
- Outside we've been working on distracting with treats any time there's a passer by, or using "find it" with treats while talking with others outside. It's working pretty well.
- I am starting him on Lactium per my trainer's suggestion. I'm skeptical about its benefits, but I agree with her that it can't hurt to try (I'm already "all in" financially on my boy!). Anyone have experience with this stuff helping with aggression?
- He went to bite one of my neighbors who he is familiar with and likes. But only after the neighbor turned to walk away. Before that he was a big love. Another sign of a fearful dog, biting someone who turns away. Fortunately the muzzle did its job and my neighbor is totally cool with the situation; in fact he wants to help with the training.

I hope this is helpful to someone and still welcome advice!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks for the update!Glad you have a plan in place to help your dog and your family and friends.It's wonderful to hear


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Just seeing this thread now. Thank you for continuing the updates! How is his shoulder doing? Can you attach the link of the basket muzzle you have? Sounds like you have found seriously good trainers to help you with his issues. This story is so uplifting  odd I know given the topic but it is so good to hear of someone taking all the right steps with the right people and staying so devoted to their "problem" dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm well, there is always someone. And yeah that's me ... sigh. By and large, the only thing three trainers can agree on is that one of them is wrong! 

I am not a "Pro" but as it happens my first-hand experience with a people aggressive OS WL GSD.

I also used a muzzle for a bit and I did Leerburghs "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" the answer for a while was ..no one!!

I taught my dog the "Place Command" when people came over he was in "Place" and no one was allowed to interact with him! That caused some "sore butts" with family but not my concern! 

Anybody can say use "Drugs" and lock the dog away in a basement! I never bother with a "trainer" myself it takes a lot to impress me! 

I would contact Jeff Gellman on Facebook and ask him to recommend a "Balanced Trainer" local to you. Or I would PM "Bailiff" on here and get a second opinion.

If a "trainer" told me to use "drugs" sorry to me that says ...there not that good! I'd pay them for their time and say:










But if you are comfortable with what they recommend go for it! 

As for me 










With Dog Trainers ...just my two cents.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

@Chip18, it's technically not an Rx, it's a supplement. You can buy it on amazon. It's reported to have a mild calming effect, and there are a lot of people who report success with aggressive dogs using it. If it works or helps and it doesn't make him sluggish, I have no problem with using chemistry to try to help the situation. It's a peptide of Casein, so it's naturally occurring in milk. My vet who is also very well respected agreed with its use. And if I have to I will use Prozac or another SSRI as a last gasp option. Given the alternative, it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

No one pets my dog either. I made an exception for my neighbor who has known him for so long. It was a mistake. But it gave me the opportunity to see what triggered a bad behavior.

The crate is a temporary solution as we train him to get more used to people coming over and to have positive association with that. As you know, a dog can learn to love a crate, and that's the goal with mine. I am taking zero chances of him biting someone else. If he does, he will likely have to be euthanized.

@lobo_dog just search Amazon for Baskerville basket muzzle.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We have had great results with feeding our dog every time he sees a human ( DS/CC) , working on eye contact heel whenever he sees a human, daily Prozac and supplemental Trazodone for vet visits and stressful situations ( under the guidance of a vet behaviorist), and careful socialization. Of course, we don't have kids or a lot of people over. That makes a difference.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> @Chip18, it's technically not an Rx, it's a supplement. You can buy it on amazon. It's reported to have a mild calming effect, and there are a lot of people who report success with aggressive dogs using it. If it works or helps and it doesn't make him sluggish, I have no problem with using chemistry to try to help the situation. It's a peptide of Casein, so it's naturally occurring in milk. My vet who is also very well respected agreed with its use. And if I have to I will use Prozac or another SSRI as a last gasp option. Given the alternative, it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
> 
> No one pets my dog either. I made an exception for my neighbor who has known him for so long. It was a mistake. But it gave me the opportunity to see what triggered a bad behavior.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying about the "supplement" and the "Crate" my concerns are not about the "supplement or the "Crate" in the basement thing but the "philosophy " behind them! 

If you drop your Dog off at solidk9trainingtraining ... they would not be recommending "supplements" or the "Crate in the basement," The approach would be control!

My people aggressive GSD would stay in "Place" when people came over and "I" kept "company" out of his freaking face! I "know" what to expect from my "supplement " free "formly" people aggressive OS WL GSD!

If you already have "PTS" on the list as an option??? "Perhaps" this is not the dog for you?? You did not get" apparently" correct information on "this" dog?? Perhaps a better alternative is to contact the rescue, offer to foster in place and see if you can find a find a less busy, kid free environment for this dog?? 

I have no Dog in this fight.  I am saying I am not impressed with these "trainers" if they fail?? Somebody could get hurt, a dog gets PTS and you've poured money down a rat hole and suffered heartbreak in the process.

It will cost you "zero" to contact "Bailiff" and ask for his "opinion" he is a "Pro" and I am not.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

What's with all the "quotation marks" dude? I respect your opinion. I don't know what PTS is. I obviously don't want the dog euthanized but if I have to return him because he's bitten multiple people my guess is they will have to report that to prospective new owners, and I'm not sure who will take a dog with a known bite record. They're a no-kill shelter but they can't keep him forever. Thus, my guess is realistically, he ends up euthanized. I know there are different schools of thought when it comes to training a dog like this. I'm going with the positive reinforcement approach and two very well respected trainers/behaviorists. It ain't exactly a science so I know it may fail. I have the money to throw down the rabbit hole for now. Hopefully it won't have been a waste.



Chip18 said:


> I understand what you are saying about the "supplement" and the "Crate" my concerns are not about the "supplement or the "Crate" in the basement thing but the "philosophy " behind them!
> 
> If you drop your Dog off at solidk9trainingtraining ... they would not be recommending "supplements" or the "Crate in the basement," The approach would be control!
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> What's with all the "quotation marks" dude? I respect your opinion. I don't know what PTS is. I obviously don't want the dog euthanized but if I have to return him because he's bitten multiple people my guess is they will have to report that to prospective new owners, and I'm not sure who will take a dog with a known bite record. They're a no-kill shelter but they can't keep him forever. Thus, my guess is realistically, he ends up euthanized. I know there are different schools of thought when it comes to training a dog like this. I'm going with the positive reinforcement approach and two very well respected trainers/behaviorists. It ain't exactly a science so I know it may fail. I have the money to throw down the rabbit hole for now. Hopefully it won't have been a waste.


PTS = Put To Sleep it's the way "Postive Only Trainers" roll (BoxerWorld)! If a cookie won't fix it PTS will! 

And yes "exclamation marks" and "quotes" are kinda my thing.  Literally ten of thousands of them used by me! Had "complaints on "Boxerforum." 

It's not my intent to "offend" I merely offer "alternative points of view" and the owners are free to do as they see fit. 

Hm, lot's of "quotes" yet again. 

Your thread was a discussion of me and another member in PM's, they brought up "observations" I did not see?? So I took the heat.  

Said my piece so I'll stay out of your hair!


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

It's all good. I wasn't offended. I want different points of view. Helps me to make a good decisions!



Chip18 said:


> PTS = Put To Sleep it's the way "Postive Only Trainers" roll (BoxerWorld)! If a cookie won't fix it PTS will!
> 
> And yes "exclamation marks" and "quotes" are kinda my thing.  Literally ten of thousands of them used by me! Had "complaints on "Boxerforum."
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> It's all good. I wasn't offended. I want different points of view. Helps me to make a good decisions!


Cool! So I'll let you know you let you know so of the inside information from a "veteran" of Dog Board! 

There are a lot of "knowledgeable" people on here! But not a lot of "Pro's" by and large most "Pro's" don't have a lot of time or patience to put up with "internet experts!" 

I can name three who do! BTE on Boxerforum, Lou Castle on here and Bailiff again on here!

I "had" a dog such as your's and when I searched the web for "answers" my only criteria was "what do the Pro's that deal with serious freaking issues do??"

My OS WL GSD had shown me clearly that "Postive" only people were full of crap!!! I found Leerburgh first and then Jeff Gellman (Solidk9training) that worked for me! 

You have "resources" here and that's why I keep harping on "contacting" Bailiff! He is a "Pro" and it would be of extreme value for you to contact him and ask for a second opinion! There are others, but at least, one of them is gone!  

Anyway as I say one of my "friends" brought up a lot of points I missed! But when she pointed them out ...I saw them! Maybe I'm off point in my assessment of your trainers??

That's why I keep harping on contacting "Ballif" direct him to this, thread and tell him Chip sent you!


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

What were your friend's points? BTW there are lots of positive reinforcement trainers who say the positive/negative trainers are full of it too. Since there are no scientific studies of what works and what doesn't, it's a matter of personal opinion.



Chip18 said:


> Cool! So I'll let you know you let you know so of the inside information from a "veteran" of Dog Board!
> 
> There are a lot of "knowledgeable" people on here! But not a lot of "Pro's" by and large most "Pro's" don't have a lot of time or patience to put up with "internet experts!"
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> What were your friend's points?


Hmmm I say a lot of stuff?? So I got lost here???




andhen2003 said:


> BTW there are lots of positive reinforcement trainers who say the positive/negative trainers are full of it too. Since there are no scientific studies of what works and what doesn't, it's a matter of personal opinion.


LOL, yes I am well aware of the "type" as long as they have "easy" dogs no problem!

If you want to see a bunch of useless crap that does not work for "problem" dogs" checkout "BoxerWorld" no shortage of useless advice there! I doubt anyone there even knows what the "Place Command" is??

PO type don't rehab, "difficult" dogs "they" put them down. They have no answers for "Man bitters and Dog killers!" If they do where are the video's ... "show your work." If a cookie won't fix it??? PTS will, is how "they roll." 

My high-rank drive, Human Aggressive OS WL GSD would have been put down 8 years ago had I enlisted the aid of some "tool" to fix his problem!

I found real answers from "Pro's" that deal with serious issues "successfully" online. Worked out fine. I simply suggest that others do the same.  

Jeff Gellman (solidk9training) has a standing 25,000 challenge to "any" Postive only trainer that can successfully rehab one of the dogs he works with on a daily basis. Those dogs will eat them up! 

A dog that bites that has not been taught, there are "consequences" for making "poor choices" is a lawsuit waiting to happen! 

My success are much more modest, but one of them is, I taught my Boxer to chase rabbits in the desert off leash and at a distance to the North towards the Mountains and not South towards the Hwy with the use of the word "NO!"

If a dog does not understand there are "consequences" for making "poor choices???" Good luck with that. :crazy:

When you have 116 lbs of OS WL GSD cut lose on his housemate you quickly learn the limits of "Postive Only!" I'd rather people not have to experience that first hand! 

Hmm well, yeah again ...another "opinion piece!"

So I'll just sum up with this:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ive-towards-cat-possessive-3.html#post7411666


Not all "trainers" are the same ...despite what "they" say.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Cool. Let's put it this way - I'm willing to consider the more aggressive training if this doesn't work. BUT outside (which is where we've been training so far) I have definitely seen improvement. In fact yesterday a guy suddenly pulled up in a pickup truck and leaned out the window and started talking to us. My dog didn't even look at him - I kept him focused on "find it" and he was very relaxed. Normally that would have been a lunge and barking incident.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Have a look at this to understand that positive only is bogus. It is just one element, ie giving something good to a dog when it is behaving well to reinforce the behavior. Thats what 'positive only' is. It is in no way dealing with negative behaviors.

When dealing with aggression that is out the window, because the dog is going into drive and does not want a cookie for it's behavior. It wants to chase away, intimidate or bite someone. That's a huge urge. It might be self defence in it's mind but it can't be lured back using a reward system, it needs a punishment to knock it out of that aggressive mind frame and realise there can be negative consequences for dangerous behavior.

Even a trainer raising it's voice and screaming at a dog to stop is negative reinforcement. With drawing affection or a toy is negatice. I don't even think positive only exists and people are just living an illusion thinking it's is the humane way to go. But doggie pts is not so humane is it. People just don't want to deal with aggression. They don't know how or are afraid, and that's who champions positive only.

I don't think anyone needs to get aggressive to use the 4 quadrants. You just need to educate yourself
Need help training your dog? Learn all the best methods!


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

This is going to make me sound like a major ****, but if you want to prove a point to me, don't cite Wikipedia! I'm a researcher. I respectfully disagree that's it's "totally bogus". If the aggression is based from fear and the positive reinforcement creates comfort in a situation that would have previously created fear then the aggression has nothing to be triggered by. Like I said I'm willing to try the "balanced" approach if I don't get the results I want here - but neither school of thought should just be called bogus. 

Yesterday I had a definite bit of evidence that this approach made a difference with the truck that pulled over and the guy stuck his head out a window. This was one of multiple triggers yesterday that didn't set him off (it was friggin' 71 degrees here and everyone, their dogs, and their mothers were outside running around!!!).

One of the people I'm dealing with is specifically focused on aggressive dogs - so I wouldn't say she's afraid to deal with them.

Again, this is the approach I'm trying now. I'm not writing off sending him off to a guy like Jeff Gelman if it doesn't work.





MadLab said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
> 
> Have a look at this to understand that positive only is bogus. It is just one element, ie giving something good to a dog when it is behaving well to reinforce the behavior. Thats what 'positive only' is. It is in no way dealing with negative behaviors.
> 
> ...


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You can research operant conditioning and ignore the info on wiki. lol

For some things it is pretty handy and concise imo on this subject. 

After your research you can tell me tell me where in nature you'll find positive only anything. It doesn't exist imo. 



> BTW there are lots of positive reinforcement trainers who say the positive/negative trainers are full of it too. Since there are *no scientific studies of what works and what doesn't*, *it's a matter of personal opinion*.


Actually there is a lot of study on it.

www.simplypsychology.org/operant-conditioning.html


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

I'll go with the American Vet Assoc and the Behaviorists on this one (they're experts on, you know, dogs):
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

You're right there is a lot of science. More than I suspected there would be. BTW I was talking to the behaviorist about this and she said she isn't opposed to punishment but it should never be the first line of attack and a lot can go wrong with it. The studies cited by AVA clearly show that. If pure positive reinforcement fails than it absolutely is an option.

BTW I studied Skinner in college in psych classes. I'm not talking about 100 year old studies on operant conditioning - I'm talking about studies about _efficacy of punishment vs positive reinforcement on aggressive dogs_.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Generally you'll find people who've experienced serious aggression and found punishment can extinguish bad behavior quickly. I know it helped me greatly with a human aggressive dog. I developed the dogs confidence, desensitized it to what it feared etcect. I managed the dog for a long time and allowed her to grow up and learn things herself as well. But the ultimate cure for her human aggression was punishment. And she understood after that and she could move on. 

You stated your dog bite a child twice. Neither of those bites had to happen if you expected a higher level of obedience from the dog and had corrected the dog earlier. It shows a lack of experience to let that happen. Sometimes people don't take a dog seriously until it bites. 

The dog barked and chased prior. I would go straight in and catch the dog for chasing or barking at people or children. Then the episode would not have escalated. 



> If the aggression is based from fear and the positive reinforcement creates comfort in a situation that would have previously created fear then the aggression has nothing to be triggered by.


See the drive of the dog is switching all the time. Yes it is showing fear but when a dog decides to go after something or bark around a group, then other drives are kicking in like prey drive and herding instinct.

It can sense weakness in the children. It gets spooked first and then can switch into prey if the children are running around screaming.

It is hard to stop these drives escalating especially not using a punishment or correction. 



> he play bites a lot and we're basically just ignoring him and turning away from him when he does it. He seems to get the message after a few bites.


I wonder how to extinguish that behavior quickly. This is more aggression not linked with the fear element.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK so ... if we are "off "this dog and on to a "larger concept??" I got more! If the OP is happy with his trainers and "seems" to be getting results ... that 's all good! But I have to say "for me " if a "trainer " says "supplements" would help?? "I'd" say, "thank you for your time," pay them for their time and show them the door!' Because as I want to say ... :

User Media - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting


So just to be clear where I stand! PO only trainers are full of crap! They "don't" work with serious "I will hurt you bad if you get this wrong dogs!" If they do??? Where are the videos??? As they say in Montana ... "show me." 

My first hand, experience, with a "Red Zone Dog" is with my sample of one, "formerly" Human Aggressive, High-Rank Drive OS WL GSD that "now" understands the concept of "NO!" That will put the "Fear of God" into you right quick!! Got stiches on that one ... "Good times Good times. 

And for the record ... a "Wobble Dog" so "Yanking and Cranking" was "Not" an option! Just saying

But to think that there is no difference between trainers that "don't" believe in the concept of teaching a dog to make good decisions (NO!!) and those that do??

Is another thing entirely.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

andhen,as MadLab was saying,counter conditioning and desensitization are excellent methods.But when a dog tenses or alerts he needs an instant correction to snap him out of it.A sharp sound,a leash pop,something to prevent him from going into the drive.At that point nothing else is effective.Snap him out of it and move on.It helps him learn self control.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> andhen,as MadLab was saying,counter conditioning and desensitization are excellent methods.But when a dog tenses or alerts he needs an instant correction to snap him out of it.A sharp sound,a leash pop,something to prevent him from going into the drive.At that point nothing else is effective.Snap him out of it and move on.It helps him learn self control.


 The thing is ... that most advocates of "PO" only assume that "all" advocates of "correcting" a dog for making "poor decisions" are "yank and crank" advocates!

Boxer guy here so I can attest first hand to this battle! 

As I said only a handful of "Pro's" bother with open forums, Lou, Pirates Lair and Bailiffs are two that I am aware of here?? Maybe there are more in the IPO forums?? Not my thing so I have no idea??

But "apparently "PL" had enough of the crap and left??  

On BoxerWorld, as Gunther, I was always butting heads with PO only folks!!! I was Gunther on there. I think it was shortly, after I told some tool who did not want to "walk his Boxer" that "perhaps" he should consider rehoming his Boxer and get a Bull Dog??" 

Yeah, ... that was too much for them! So I had enough and quit that board and came here and BoxerForum! Thanks to "Bailiff" and this board many members of both boards "understand" the "concept" of training "calmness into a dog." I doubt many "PO" only trainers understand what that is and why it is important???


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think most of us here go for a balanced approach.Reward for behavior we want.Make sure what we want and don't want is clear to the dog.That's the goal anyway.Then come on this forum for help with the things that pop up that we're not sure about


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The more experience with dogs you have, the fewer corrections you need overall. This is because you can be clear to the dog, and consistent with the dog, follow through, and these things build respect and trust both ways between the dog and the handler.

As I discipline myself -- to be clear, to have good timing, to not repeat commands, to follow through, to train the dog first, to be consistent, to be patient, I find that disciplining the dog becomes a non-issue. 

When I stop focusing on what is wrong with the dog, and focus on what is wrong with my technique with the dog, I progress. 

Training ourselves to handle dogs is possible, but only if we are willing to accept that we may not be doing things well.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's very true Selzer!Whenever I have trouble teaching something or communicating something I know it's my failure.Then I make a change so my dogs can understand me.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> @Chip18, it's technically not an Rx, it's a supplement. You can buy it on amazon. It's reported to have a mild calming effect, and there are a lot of people who report success with aggressive dogs using it. If it works or helps and it doesn't make him sluggish, I have no problem with using chemistry to try to help the situation. It's a peptide of Casein, so it's naturally occurring in milk. My vet who is also very well respected agreed with its use. And if I have to I will use Prozac or another SSRI as a last gasp option. Given the alternative, it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
> 
> No one pets my dog either. I made an exception for my neighbor who has known him for so long. It was a mistake. But it gave me the opportunity to see what triggered a bad behavior.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a great plan! I had/have a similar pup (Leo) situation in "aggression" and we were successful in modifying his behavior (as well as his own maturing and growing up) through intensive training (early on when we addressed it with our trainers) and continual maintenance training of reinforcement. 

Our boy still loves his crate and you are right that it is an indispensable tool in training! Dog gates, ex-pens are also pretty useful too! But the best thing you have in place is your trainer, who appears to know their stuff---it took 3 different trainers for us to finally click (and I mean all of us, pup included!) with our trainer. 

You are on the right track with all that you are putting in place for you, your family, and your pup---to be successful in modifying and managing your pup's behavior! Good luck and thank you for the updates!

A side note: We give our boys a lavender supplement to "calm" them during hectic times (here as a treat: 



) as well as a felt ring on Leo's collar (with a lavender/chamomile extract dripped on it, here-->Sniff-it Collar Diffuser) and I have seen tremendous results (obviously with continual training and reinforcement of training and correct corrections  I am, by no means, not a holistic-health trending person, but when you find what works you go with it!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just wanted to chime in here in support of using counter conditioning and positive reinforcement to rehab an aggressive dog who came with baggage. I've done it successfully with more than one dog. Worked like a charm. 

I'm not a pro by any means but I've been rescuing dogs for 28 years and have taken on some really tough cases. I know how to train dogs and I long ago gave up the yank and crank method. I am a strong, clear, and consistent leader but I understand that one size does not fit all with training. You have to get inside the dog's head and figure out how to work with them. When you have an aggressive dog it's extremely important to figure out all of their triggers so that you can interrupt and redirect. 

Good luck with your dog!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

AFAIK the dog was returned to rescue with details added. A more suitable (kid free home) was added to the resume. 

All things considered, it was a good call here. Hopefully, a home can be found where someone can give him what he needs in a less risky (quieter) environment.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

Well Chip, you outed me, but yes I returned the dog. With all of the research I've done and advice I've sought, I thought it best to return the dog to the shelter. I let them know BTW that they put me and my family into a very bad position. As far as I'm concerned, when a guardian breed comes in (especially a GSD), clearly abused and/or neglected the absolute rule should be that the dog goes to a family with no children. As I've learned, it is not uncommon for an improperly socialized white GSD to be fear aggressive and bite. My wife and I decided given our family situation it wasn't the right fit. We're heartbroken of course and my wife hasn't stopped crying for a week.

Let this be a warning not to entirely trust the shelter to make the right decision about where a dog should be placed. I absolutely believe in trying to adopt from a shelter but do your homework about the risk associated with not knowing a dog's history, given the type of dog we are talking about here.

And that's coming from a guy with a lot of resources and a love of sheps since I was a child. At some point, we'll try again.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> Well Chip, you outed me, but yes I returned the dog. With all of the research I've done and advice I've sought, I thought it best to return the dog to the shelter. I let them know BTW that they put me and my family into a very bad position. As far as I'm concerned, when a guardian breed comes in (especially a GSD), clearly abused and/or neglected the absolute rule should be that the dog goes to a family with no children. As I've learned, it is not uncommon for an improperly socialized white GSD to be fear aggressive and bite. My wife and I decided given our family situation it wasn't the right fit. We're heartbroken of course and my wife hasn't stopped crying for a week.
> 
> Let this be a warning not to entirely trust the shelter to make the right decision about where a dog should be placed. I absolutely believe in trying to adopt from a shelter but do your homework about the risk associated with not knowing a dog's history, given the type of dog we are talking about here.
> 
> And that's coming from a guy with a lot of resources and a love of sheps since I was a child. At some point, we'll try again.


LOL sorry.

Someone asked me and I knew people would want to know and sometimes we get members who just "disappear" after solving there current problem??

But you did great actually, you made a good call for your family and the Dog! He went back with new information and No bite history!

Another dog another thread was not so lucky. "Problem" dog in a house full of kids had no bite history (that they knew of at any rate) anyway in two days he bit the crate out of anyone under three feet tall! Back he went and now with a "biter" stamp on him. 

I pretty much agree with your conclusions, nothing to add there.


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## andhen2003 (Nov 5, 2015)

BTW I spoke to the executive director of the shelter who apologized profusely and said their system failed and she was going to meet with staff to figure out why and how to prevent it in the future. She confirmed their behaviorist initally assessed the dog as being inappropriate for families with kids. I hope you're right and he gets readopted. He's way ahead of where he would have been without us, at least.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> BTW I spoke to the executive director of the shelter who apologized profusely and said their system failed and she was going to meet with staff to figure out why and how to prevent it in the future. She confirmed their behaviorist initally assessed the dog as being inappropriate for families with kids. I hope you're right and he gets readopted. He's way ahead of where he would have been without us, at least.


Sincerely no shame in bringing a dog back because it isn't the right "fit" (fit being the understatement of the year). I am sorry it didn't work out with this pup; I hope (if you are still seeking a family dog) that you find the best dog to fit into your family!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you did the right thing. 

I am sorry it did not work out because I know how attached people become with these dogs. But, when you have kids, kids ought to be able to have friends come over, and someone somewhere will slip up, and that is bad for everyone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andhen2003 said:


> BTW I spoke to the executive director of the shelter who apologized profusely and said their system failed and she was going to meet with staff to figure out why and how to prevent it in the future. She confirmed their behaviorist initally assessed the dog as being inappropriate for families with kids. I hope you're right and he gets readopted. He's way ahead of where he would have been without us, at least.


Well you did go by this dog and your family!

Pretty sure the shelter will just trade that PO only type with another PO only type?? Dogs need to be taught "NO" you need to be make better choices! But that's another "story."


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