# Stock chasing - help needed



## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Hi all
I'm having trouble with Hex chasing my horses and today he chased the neighbours cattle which is a HUGE no no.
He herds them, but I can't have him potentially hurt one of them.
I own an e collar but haven't used it yet.
Has anyone else had the same problem and how did you handle it!
Today I was ready to stick the e collar on him and just hit him full stim if he went to take off after them again 
Haven't done it but he's gonna have to be taught not to chase 

Any ideas?


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## Raintheshepherd (Jan 8, 2013)

I live on a property and we have dressage horses. Rain use to chase the horses when she was younger. I put the E collar on her and only had to use it a handful of times and she hasn't even looked at them twice again. Highly recommend using one. You don't have to shock them either, I have mine on a high vibration and sound, I have never used the shock button.
I also would take her for walks in their paddocks on-leash and correct any wrongful looks, barking etc.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

How about training your dog and not having him anywhere near livestock unless you are out there with him?


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I was out there with him 
And I am here asking for advise on how to best train him,
not to be told that I have to train him - that part is fairly obvious I recon. 



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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lou Castle crittering technique
I have used this. It works. Google it.
Do NOT hit the dog full stim.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Hmm that looks interesting, how long did it take you to see results?


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

middleofnowhere said:


> How about training your dog and not having him anywhere near livestock unless you are out there with him?


Very helpful.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

middleofnowhere said:


> How about training your dog and not having him anywhere near livestock unless you are out there with him?


There's a good idea. *TRAINING* your dog so they know what's right and wrong.

Rather than just suddenly deciding to punish him for something you have currently TRAINED him to do (chase stock) because you've allowed him to do it.

All you need is a reliable 'come' by being out there as a responsible owner with your dog. Or using a leash/fenced yard if you aren't going to be able to have him safely off leash unattended for awhile.

Teaching a Reliable Recall - Whole Dog Journal Article

The First Steps to Teaching a Reliable Recall: Kathy Sdao - Bright Spot Dog Training

Articles: Really Reliable Recall by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training!

I love e-collars but they aren't a quick fix, cause just like a leash YOU HAVE TO BE THERE!

And if you aren't there, the dogs learn that even with an e-collar. So if you are irresponsible and continue to let your dog out to chase stock without managing the training, the dog will continue to chase stock when he's loose and out of sight.

Best use of the e-collar is WITH training. And ALL training with your dog with strengthen your bond with him. Make him learn right and wrong WITH you. And then he won't be so bored and full of energy he'll know that the best thing to do is run off and chase something. Our smart dogs learn to make their own fun if we don't train/teach/hike/run/socialize/walk/canoe/camp/train/tricks/chuckit..... with them.

Since almost everyone I know that pretends to read up and use the e-collar on their own, screws it up and just uses it the way you mentioned as a BLAST THE CONFUSED DOG rather than train their dog...... I wouldn't recommend you start with the collar at all unless you could find a trainer to help teach.

But since I also know that people don't listen to the above recommendation and say 'I will read up and do it right all on my own' a good site to use to start up and use it to TRAIN is to click this ---> How To...

Good luck and prove me wrong


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> How about training your dog and not having him anywhere near livestock unless you are out there with him?



The OP was very frustrated today. They chose NOT to use a tool they had, instead coming here to ask for (and I quote directly) "Ideas", obviously to train and manage the situation. They asked for others with personal experience in this situation to offer suggestions also. 
Posts like yours, which are condescending at best, offer the OP nothing in the way of help, but serve to immediately set a defensive and/or negative tone for the thread. 

In the limited information the OP gave, you really have no idea whether the dog is trained or not. A dog can be training successfully, even proofing successfully and suddenly meet a "new" challenge that has not been considered or the dog has never seen before. I don't see anything in the OP's post that said the dog was unattended (as you insinuated) or necessarily untrained. 

My dog's recall is very very good--we're continually proofing and proofing. However, I can tell you that considering what I do with him, it's high odds that someday he will meet a bear or possibly even a cougar, and very high odds that he will meet a moose. While I can practice and practice and practice, I actually can't tell you what he will really do if he meets one of those animals, because they're a little hard to "proof" with. If he ran after the cougar and ignored my recall, even after months, years of perfect recall off deer, and I were to post about it, would you then suggest to me "training" my dog?

Things aren't a problem for people until they are. 

OP, MRL's post has some very good information. You can also keep your dog on a long line and practice training around your horses, starting far enough away that the dog is not distracted, and then moving closer and closer, as the dog's success allows. If he's focusing on them instead of you, you're too close. If you can practice in the cow pasture, too, at some point, that may help as well. Otherwise, with the cows, recall training will be your best bet, as well as just acclimating him to them, so they become not as interesting and rather boring to him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Lou Castle crittering technique
> I have used this. It works. Google it.
> Do NOT hit the dog full stim.


^^^^ This. Chasing livestock is dangerous for the livestock, the dogs and the people. And use it properly! Do not hit the dog with the full stim.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Ok just to clarify - I was out there with the horses, the cattle had just come into my property (where they usually do not belong) my hubby opened the gate to go to the car and Hex came out with him, he was about to take him for a drive to the shops and had both hands full so didn't have the dog on lead. He ran over toward me, which got the cattle spooked and they started running. 
That was just too much for his little one year old brain to handle and he took off after them . 
I went straight after him so I could try to get him to come or to grab him if he ran past, he knew he was being called, he also knows chasing is WRONG but apparently I can't be more exciting to him than a herd of running cows - go figure.
His recall is generally not too bad ( no it's not perfect yet), he comes out to feed the horses with me quite a bit (on lead) and has been really good recently at coming when called and not annoying them.

He is NEVER unattended outside the fenced yard (he'd most likely get shot by one of the neighbours if he was) 
I have always thought of e collars as cruel but I'd rather use on on him then have him get his head kicked in or have the neighbours shoot him. 
Hence I was asking for advise on HOW to use one or for other ideas that may have worked for people.
I said I FELT like hitting him full blast NOT that I did - I'm still dreading putting that bloody collar on him at all.
He needs to learn that chasing is a bad thing and uncomfortable, not fun like he currently thinks.
Yes I want to TRAIN him not to chase - I was asking on advise how to best DO that. 
it's not like he's running around the whole property every day merrily chasing everything that moves - this was a stupid situation which annoyingly sometimes happens.

I have read the Lou Castles crittering protocol and it sounds good - I like how he makes it the dogs decision not to chase. I will give that program a go - thank's to all who recommended it 
MaggieRoseLee thank you for the recall training links as well, they were very informative.

Rocket Dog thank you for your kind post, I'm glad you understand where I was coming from!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I had to use an e-collar with my malamute, he would chase livestock, deer, and coyotes. I didn't like the idea, but I followed the advice of the trainer I had at the time (early 90s) and it worked.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I have literally been exactly where you are--unexpected cattle on my property, unable to grab my dogs, etc. So no criticism from me. 

My GSD especially was unbelievably bad about chasing stock when I got him. I think you need a multi-pronged approach. And FWIW, I did all this without anything but a flat collar, lead, and rewards, but I have known some dogs who do need an e-collar. Just be sure you know how to use it appropriately.

So, first step is to get his recall 100% (or as close as possible...I'd say at least 99%). I can call my GSD off a bolting herd of deer (or cattle) now, but I could barely call him off a trotting horse before I seriously went about proofing his recall. If your dog is _ever _off-lead in an unfenced area, then you need to get his recall as perfect as possible. And that may not be great with some dogs. I grew up with a Basset Hound that we tried for years to train a recall in, and she only ever got to about 70%. So she was only off-leash in controlled situations, and on a 30-foot lead in others where we'd let a more reliable dog totally free.

Second, if your dog has a strong prey drive, you need to be sure he has an outlet for that. If you're doing that, great. If not, let us know and you will be inundated with solutions.  If you're not, even something as simple as fetch can do it. He also needs plenty of exercise--for a dog with strong drives and a lot of energy, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle to try to train him not to chase if he's not having his needs met.

On to chasing...as long as the dog is getting plenty of opportunity to chase appropriate things (like a ball), and plenty of exercise...I have had great results with positive reinforcement. Basically, all I do is reward the dog for ignoring the livestock, and get his attention back to me if he does look at them. Most dogs will learn that ignoring stock and paying attention to people is the best option for them. You'll have to do it gradually (ask your neighbors, many will be willing to help IME if you've framed it as you did above...you keep your dog under control but want to train for those rare occasions you might be caught by surprise), start with a quiet herd you're standing some distance away from, gradually increase proximity and movement of the herd as appropriate for the dog. But I think for many dogs, it is possible (if a bit more time-consuming) to do with positive reinforcement--again, as long as they're getting their prey drive and exercise requirements met.

I've done this with success with my GSD (who has a very high prey drive) and tons of ACDs (who are different, but I think even stronger herding/chasing instincts) over the years, since I had a farm until like 4 months ago when I decided to move to the city for a break.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Fine. I'll be more specific: 
Train a reliable recall.
Train a reliable aus.
Train a reliable platz.

If these commands are not reliable around the stimulous, they are not reliable. Couple having these reliable behaviors with no unaccompanied access = an end to harrassing livestock - which, in many states, can get your dog killed by the livestock owner.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Look, I have trained two GSDs with the shock from an e-collar. If they associate the shock from the stock they chase, they will stop doing it. I also trained them that cars moving towards them "bite"... They look out for and get out of the way of cars..

If they associated it with you, they when you are not there it must be OK... Just like a garbage can that smells really good. It you train them, maybe they will leave it alone, but if you are not home it could seem to be OK... However, if they learn the garbage can has a big STING to it, they will stay away from it... This works for most dogs.

The stock has a "Kick" a "Sting" associated with getting too close, and they learn respect. It has worked with two GSDs, and i am thinking about renewing my set, to use on my new Black Working Dog puppy. It is about a little measure of what some think cruelty, to teach them it BITES and to save their lives. If they learn it BITES, they will stear clear of it.. Stock, cars, or garbage cans. Worked for me.

Hope this is a help...
lone Ranger, out on the Last Frontier, dancing with wolves... heh he


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> Fine. I'll be more specific:
> Train a reliable recall.
> Train a reliable aus.
> Train a reliable platz.
> ...


Your tone really stinks!!!

Personally I would try to proof your recall before the e-collar but some dogs just really want to chase things. I too can call my dog off anything......I use him around our sheep so he has to come off, wait and go easy when told but it is an on going learning curve for him so does take a lot of time. I don't have a problem with the idea of an e-collar especially if he has a solid recall all other times except with the stock.
Take him out around them a bit more on a long line and try teach him to be calm around them etc. How old is he??


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I like Lou's protocol but there is a lot of merit to what Loneranger suggests. Many many hunters who use dogs for duck or pig or rabbit (etc.) hunting use the "trash breaking" protocol. If you google this, you will find it basically involves showing the dog that chasing the wrong thing is very uncomfortable. It is not a pleasant way of dog training but it is effective and easy for most people to get right.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Thanks for all the suggestions, Lone Ranger summed it up well how it was explained to me by a trainer

Make the dog think the cattle, bin etc is what caused the zap.

Sparra he just turned 1 at the start of February  


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Mooch said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions, Lone Ranger summed it up well how it was explained to me by a trainer
> 
> Make the dog think the cattle, bin etc is what caused the zap.
> 
> ...


So he is very young and really not surprising he wants to chase.
Did you mention at one point you wanted to try some herding?? I may be thinking of someone else. If it was you then an ecollar would not be the go but not sure it was you.
If you have time get him out there everyday on nice big long line and do some training with him.....he still has lots to learn at only 1.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> The OP was very frustrated today. They chose NOT to use a tool they had, instead coming here to ask for (and I quote directly) "Ideas", obviously to train and manage the situation. They asked for others with personal experience in this situation to offer suggestions also.
> 
> 
> EXACTLY. I mean the OP has said that he was with his dog, and was asking for training advice. So rude to jump down his throat the way several people did. There really are some high and mighty's on here, aren't there? They deserve the full stim Waay more than the dog would. Yeah, I don't really mean that and the statement probably doesn't help.
> ...


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## bryant88 (Jan 22, 2013)

Thats not good. People shoot dogs over something like that.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

bryant88 said:


> Thats not good. People shoot dogs over something like that.



I see you are a new member and I hope you stick around. However, I also hope you have more to offer than the above post, which is most decidedly not, any way you bend it, helpful in the least.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello again, lone Ranger here, who lives with horses, and cattle, with three German Shepherds...

*Look, the e-collar response I was talking about will not stop the herding instinct as someone suggested. On good kick in the head, can kill your beloved Friend. You only teach them to stay out of striking distance.*

They can still herd, just not get in close like they are going to nip at the heels like a Blue Heeler will here in Australia. For some reason they have thick skulls and might take a kick, NOT SO with our GSDs...

I* would use, will use, have used, the e-collar to shock them if they get TOO CLOSE... They would get this with a kick and learn for themselves, but we just cannot afford that. * Consequently the e-collar will teach them the same message of a kick if they get too close, only in this case a shock.

I do not see that impeding, and has not impeded the herding instinct in mine... HOWEVER: It did teach them respect and they do not get too close, as in short kicking range.. If they do, they are really nimble and on their toes because they know to get too close and that animal can *BITE :wild: *

Kind regards, dancing with wolves in Australia


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

*Almost lost my prized Pup Wolf Caesar yesterday....*

My highly intelligent prized pup, 14 weeks, 40 lbs, showing herding instincts, fetches 5-10 times 100 % Stays 10-`15 seconds, heels on and off leash if no distractions, and so on, brag brag brag... Love him to death.. :wub:

Almost lost him yesterday. Entirely my fault, as I was just too confident.. I have about a young steer, be going on maybe 800-900 lbs, that I penned up in about a 2/3 acre Stallion horse yard of post and rail with heavy treated hardwood rails... (In summer grass now in Australia, and most common wood is hardwood)... Anyway, penned him up to start to fatten for the freezer, organic grass fed now on grain, molassas and luscerne hay.. I called the steer and Caesar started barking. That was OK, but then he ducked into the yard and started the herding action and would not respond to his NO and his Recall command. The steer turned and trotted off, with me panicking and yelling his commands to which he usually responded to, but was so excited he kept on and the steer lashed out with a kick to the head....

Anyway, Caesar was sent flying, spun around, staggered off crying out, as I rushed into the pen to the rescue, in a blind panic, scared to death.. I held him and got him out, examined him, and no damage to be seen. I took him to a meeting that night, and held him and kept checking him over, teeth good, no blood, no prolonged concussion, I was VERY LUCKY, Blessed by the Lord I would say...

Around the Stock, it is only seconds, and disaster can happen.. An E-Collar is on the cards, he may not need it for the stock again, but for cars and stock reinforcing if he gets too close, he will get BIT again... The feeling of almost losing my dear friend, is too much to bear... E-collar is still the answer I think, they just go instinctively and forget in the excitement..:shocked:

I am very lucky... Kind regards from Oz..


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah...probably pretty lucky!!!
He is young so not too surprising he thought that the steer looked like a fun target!!
We have stock here on our property as well as chooks, guinea fowl....well a menagerie really.....i just used a long line until Luther was 100% reliable to come off the stock.....he was about 8months old I reckon when he was 100% with the recall. I had him off it much younger around the sheep....they are not really dangerous when it comes to kicks and things......it can be done without the e-collar BUT you have experience/success with using it.....your pup is cute and reminds me of Luther when he was a pup.....which doesn't seem that long ago!!!


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

sparra said:


> i just used a long line until Luther was 100% reliable to come off the stock.....he was about 8months old I reckon when he was 100% with the recall. !!


Yea Sparra, long leash it will be... At 14 weeks he was developed so fast, I got over confident, all my fault. :blush: Long leash it is from now on..!!!  I won't take a chance again that he gets over excited and the prey chase instinct takes over..


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Oh Lone Ranger you were so lucky!!!
And your puppy is gorgeous!!!

My first GSD got kicked in the head by a horse and it split the corner of her eye, she needed stitches, the vet was very surprised no bone was broken (lucky the horse wasn't wearing shoes)

A neighbour of mine had a blue heeler, it had its leg broken and got totally knocked out cold by his race horses several times 
Don't expect your pup to have learnt a lesson by being kicked - he may go after him again if he gets the chance!
That heeler never learnt.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

When you live with livestock and dogs at some point in their lives their paths will cross and you may not be there to 'recall' the dog. You have to teach your dog to stay off the livestock. 

In the old days (many moons ago) I was taught by a professional trainer to flip your dog when it chases livestock. Meaning use a long line, allow the dog to start the chase and before it reached the end of the line, provide a command and jerk (hard) the line. The dog would flip. How I never injured a dog or broke it's neck, I have no idea. E-collars weren't around. 

I would use an E-collar. I would proof my recall. I would train daily. I'd take no chances.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Thanks for the mention Nancy. I agree that just hitting the dog with a high level stim can cause all sorts of unexpected problems. The dog can associate being away from the owner and decide not to leave his side. The dog can associate being in a certain field and will never go there again, even if the owner wants him to. You never know what association the dog will make with this sort of training, and if he makes the wrong one, not only will you have unexpected issues, you won't cure the problem of chasing the cattle or the horses. 

HERE'S MY ARTICLE on working on this issue. If done properly, the dog makes the decision not to chase. Usually you can see improvement after the first session but the dog should not be given the opportunity to chase (that means management – either keeping the dog on leash or away from the prey animals, until after the training is completed). I recommend four sessions, the first three a day apart and the next 4−5 days later. 



Muskeg said:


> I like Lou's protocol but there is a lot of merit to what Loneranger suggests. Many many hunters who use dogs for duck or pig or rabbit (etc.) hunting use the "trash breaking" protocol. If you google this, you will find it basically involves showing the dog that chasing the wrong thing is very uncomfortable. It is not a pleasant way of dog training but it is effective and easy for most people to get right.


Usually this works. That is it stops the chasing. But you never know when it will go sideways and cause problems that may be quite difficult to solve. My method does not have this danger because it uses low level stim. Using high levels of stim is fraught with all sorts of fallout.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Lou, thank you for contributing to this Forum...

In my 9 years (not much really) of experience with two Shepherds and horses in the E-collar for unwanted behavior, one rule I would always give and that is you always start with low level stimulation..

I mean even with cars, if you really belt him he might even jump out into traffic .... The Royal Australian Air Force (reportedly) trains with a perimeter of low level warning on approach, then medium, then a real jolt if they try and test the limits or do not pay attention...

One style I got even had another lower level that was just an early audible warning..

Anyway, I would not want to go the highest levels unless you have to. Maybe for entering near to a oncoming car, or ground level bait, but for stock I might suggest always that low to medium stimulation to warn them... But be prepared to belt them if it does not work. 

You agree? Kind regards in love for GSDs, from Australia


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

lone Ranger said:


> Lou, thank you for contributing to this Forum...


You're very welcome. 



lone Ranger said:


> In my 9 years (not much really) of experience with two Shepherds and horses in the E-collar for unwanted behavior, one rule I would always give and that is you always start with low level stimulation..


All of my methods start with this in mind. Using low levels of stim keeps the dog's mind clear. 



lone Ranger said:


> One style I got even had another lower level that was just an early audible warning..


A lot of training used to be done with this method. It's not used much these days. I think that the command serves as _"an early audible warning."_ Using a tone on the Ecollar for this is similar to giving double commands. I want the dog to be conditioned that if he does not obey the command, discomfort will follow. 



lone Ranger said:


> Anyway, I would not want to go the highest levels unless you have to. Maybe for entering near to a oncoming car, or ground level bait, but for stock I might suggest always that low to medium stimulation to warn them... But be prepared to belt them if it does not work.
> 
> You agree? Kind regards in love for GSDs, from Australia


I do a lot of conditioning at low levels and very rarely have to go to the high ones. I do so only in life threatening situations. My classic example is a dog ignoring a recall command while running towards a busy road.


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