# Breeder lied about health test



## Hank7 (Feb 24, 2016)

Hi. We bought a puppy 3 weeks ago from a breeder in Northern IL. The breeder said he had tested for hips, elbows, cardio and more. We picked a girl and fell in love. 3 days later, we took Piper to our vet and found out she has a bad heart. We won't give her back as she is part of the family. The breeder guarantees the health of his dogs. He says we can have another dog, but not our money back. He also stated it's standard practice to replace, not refund. Is this true?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

maybe not .

sometimes young pups have a barely discernible irregularity to their heart which may be a function of growth to the 4 chambers, Heart Murmurs in Dogs - Learn the Signs & Treatment | VCA Animal Hospitals

did your pup leave the breeder with a recent Veterinary health check?

If so ask the breeder who that Vet was, or the name should be stamped on the vaccination/examination record and speak to that Vet that attended that pup.

Excitement at your Vet's clinic , and the pup breathing rapidly, snuffling could be mistaken for turbulence. Often the examining vet will place a thumb over the pups nostrils so that he can listen to the heart without other competing noises.

Your vet should have informed you about innocent murmurs.
Children can get a temporary murmur if they are experiencing elevated temperatures .

As far as the breeder and the quarantee . What did you understand the guarantee policy was ? You understand that this is entirely voluntarily . 
They already said they would replace the dog. Did they require the return of your pup?

If they said you can have another pup , and you refuse to return the pup -- then maybe compromise -- run the dog on for a few months - recheck, every single time you go in for some visit , recheck.

Problem may be totally gone , or graded insignificant level, which for a non strenuous life style will have zero impact . 
Once you reach that you sign off from this as a problem , but NOT on anything else that was guaranteed.

you need to give the breeder a chance - 
at least there is the appearance that their guarantee was good


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's a horrible situation to go through.What does your contract say,and did you actually see the parent's health tests?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hank7 said:


> Hi. We bought a puppy 3 weeks ago from a breeder in Northern IL. The breeder said he had tested for hips, elbows, cardio and more. We picked a girl and fell in love. 3 days later, we took Piper to our vet and found out she has a bad heart. We won't give her back as she is part of the family. The breeder guarantees the health of his dogs. He says we can have another dog, but not our money back. He also stated it's standard practice to replace, not refund. Is this true?



This makes no sense. First, a puppy can not be tested for hips, elbows and more. They can have a general health exam, and should, from a vet prior to leaving the home. The parents would have had "hips, elbows, cardio and more". I think there is a misunderstanding here.

Yes, it's common practice to replace and not refund.

Do you have a contract? What does it say?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I also assumed that the parents were the dogs that were tested for hips, elbows and cardio and more - because you can not test for these in a pup at this age.
Misunderstanding .
Sometimes it is a really really good idea to have a session without the presence of any scene stealing, attention hogging pups where your logical brain goes out the window.
Breeder and perspective buyer , sit and have a questions and answers session . Make sure everything is understood.

Then get your fill with the pups.
.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

if the puppies had been health checked by the breeders vet, maybe that vet would also have detected a heart murmur? 
The breeder seems to be responsible, I would work with the breeder, not against at this time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had a puppy checked 3 times at my vet, every time they checked the heart, no issues. Then the pup went to the buyer's vet and they discovered a murmur. The buyer informed me and I extended the warranty for the heart. They took the puppy to a specialist who did a test on the heart, and they said everything was present and clean, the puppy should grow out of it. 3 weeks later, a clean bill of health. 

Work with your breeder, I don't think they are doing anything wrong by what you wrote.


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## Hank7 (Feb 24, 2016)

*reply*

Let me clarify. Piper was 3 months old when we got her. We took her to our vet on day 3. He listened to heart beat for 3 seconds and said there is problem. He ordered an EKG. The vet knew there was problem and faxed the EKG to University of Illinois vet clinic for expert analysis. 3 days later we met with head of the cardio department at the U of I at his request. It is early and medicine may help. It's not a murmur, but a irregular shaped lower chamber causing misfires. Vet said she could go to sleep and never wake up at any time, so there is added anxiety.

We have been cordial and kept the breeder informed of what has been happening. Breeder said he self vaccinates, so i don't think our puppy seen a vet before ours. Breeder flat out said he would replace with another puppy and let us keep Piper. We are committed to Piper and don't want a different puppy. If she ends up having a short life, i don't think i want another puppy from him. I am going to do whatever I can to give Piper a good life. I just think the breeder did not give us a healthy puppy, which is implied with any purchase. 
Breeder stated no other breeders give money back, just another puppy. Is this standard for breeders? He was supposed to send me a copy of the contract(his printer was not working that day and he is 3 hours away)

Thank you to anyone who gives their opinion as all are welcome.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is your choice to keep the pup....breeder is doing what they need to as far as replacement. BUT some breeders would refund and take the pup back or let pup stay if the home was good for the condition as far as vetting, etc. 
I would have looked at the contract and have signatures from both parties before giving money to anyone, and would have asked for a vet record before purchasing an older pup.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Do you have the report from the cardiologist? Does the puppy have a murmur? Or an arrhythmia? What medication did they recommend? Sub Aortic stenosis, pulmonic stenosis? Either sound familiar? Did your puppy have an echocardiogram or just an ecg? Do you know what that actual diagnosis is? I work for a cardiology group, so I am very curious. If you want to PM me that fine. 

It is normal for a breeder to not refund only replace.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is standard practice. However, it is also standard practice to give 2 weeks to return the puppy for any reason, money is returned. Some breeders do only 48 hours. Where you are located may make a difference on that. 

I think your breeder should return your money if there was a genetic/congenital problem at week 3. But, then you would have to return the puppy. The puppy would probably be euthanized. Probably, not always. 

Your best bet would be to ask the breeder if you could wait for the puppy until you are ready for another puppy. 

If you don't want another puppy from the guy, if the puppy is currently available, you might ask if the breeder, if he would find a puppy buyer for you, and give you 75% of whatever he gets for the puppy. I mean, then you are trying to work with the breeder. The breeder is compensated for selling your puppy, and then turns over the rest of the money. The breeder has a say in who gets his puppy. And assure him that the money is going for the vet bills and any medicine your puppy might need.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hank7 said:


> Let me clarify. Piper was 3 months old when we got her. We took her to our vet on day 3. He listened to heart beat for 3 seconds and said there is problem. He ordered an EKG. The vet knew there was problem and faxed the EKG to University of Illinois vet clinic for expert analysis. 3 days later we met with head of the cardio department at the U of I at his request. It is early and medicine may help. It's not a murmur, but a irregular shaped lower chamber causing misfires. Vet said she could go to sleep and never wake up at any time, so there is added anxiety.
> 
> We have been cordial and kept the breeder informed of what has been happening. Breeder said he self vaccinates, so i don't think our puppy seen a vet before ours. Breeder flat out said he would replace with another puppy and let us keep Piper. We are committed to Piper and don't want a different puppy. If she ends up having a short life, i don't think i want another puppy from him. I am going to do whatever I can to give Piper a good life. I just think the breeder did not give us a healthy puppy, which is implied with any purchase.
> Breeder stated no other breeders give money back, just another puppy. Is this standard for breeders? He was supposed to send me a copy of the contract(his printer was not working that day and he is 3 hours away)
> ...


well this would have been useful information.

so was the pup ever examined by any other vet prior to sale?

I agree with Selzer . Arrange with the breeder to keep your current pup and receive another pup some time in the future when you are ready.
You know who the breeder is , what is their reputation . 
They were prompt in attempting to make good on their guarantee.


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## Hank7 (Feb 24, 2016)

We assumed that a vet had seen all of the puppies before he listed them. I guess that was incorrect. Our vet was very worried the very first time he heard her heartbeat.

We are inexperienced and should have asked more questions. But i really never dreamed we would have this kind of problem. I am trying real hard not to bad mouth this man because he seemed to care deeply and swears none of his dogs ever had a cardio issue before.

Knowledge is power and this site has tons of knowledge/


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I don't really have any advice, but I just wanted to say that I'm really sorry that your puppy has a health problem. Our good thoughts are with you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is possible that none of his dogs ever did have a cardio problem before. I have had 1 that had that murmur. And then another person told me that her pup had some kind of problem that could cause him to die any time, but if he lived to a year, and then it was 18 months, the dog would be fine. He is nearly two now and the owner believes he is out of the woods. But that is 2 in ten years of breeding, and one of them was an innocent murmur the dog outgrew. 

It is possible that the breeder has never had a cardiac issue with any dog before. With living creatures, you don't generally have a litter full of heart issues, or one in every litter. The same with a lot of things. Your breeder can tell you that they have never produced a dog with DM, or MegE, but then it could still happen.

A friend of mine was breeding for 50 years, and she had someone she respected tell her, that if you are in it for long enough, you will probably see just about everything. 

Let's give the breeder the benefit of the doubt. 

Lots of breeders do give their own shots, and not just because it is cheaper.  They do it because they feel exposing the dog to a veterinary office is exposing them to serious illnesses at a time when the puppy is very vulnerable. So that really doesn't raise any flag to me UNLESS they told you that they had the puppies checked by a vet.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To back up a bit - a replacement pup is generally what is offered rather than a refund. Allowing you to keep your pup, too, is good. 
So - don't expect a refund. 
(Your breeder is being responsible.)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's 20-20 hindsight but you can ask the breeder if the puppies went to his vet rather then guessing.

One of my dogs comes from a long line of HD clear parents. She has bilateral HD.

Genetics is always going to be a gamble, even with the best precautions.

I'm sorry you are going through this though. I had an American Showline many years ago, from a good breeder, with irregular heart too. I know how it feels. 

It sounds like your breeder is doing right by you and following standard practice of most breeders. 

I don't think you made a mistake, it's just bad luck that happens to all of us as puppy buyers and to good breeders too.



Hank7 said:


> We assumed that a vet had seen all of the puppies before he listed them. *I guess that was incorrect*. Our vet was very worried the very first time he heard her heartbeat.
> 
> We are inexperienced and should have asked more questions. But i really never dreamed we would have this kind of problem. I am trying real hard not to bad mouth this man because he seemed to care deeply and swears none of his dogs ever had a cardio issue before.
> 
> Knowledge is power and this site has tons of knowledge/


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## shedogs (Feb 24, 2016)

*simular problem hips not cardio*

My personal opinion is that it is the responsibility of each breeder to stand behind their breeding. It's always aweful to have any health concerns. My heart goes out to you. At least this breeder is willing to work with you. A great breeder does what they are offering. They may are may not be great breeders..I don't know. At least they are being reasonable. I researched my breeder and didn't see any negative remarks about my breeder. I think most sites tend to keep positive and get rid of negative remarks. They turned out to be awful. Even after I showed the OFA report they called me a liar and cursed me out. How could I lie about an OFA report?! They never sent me a copy of their puppy contract and I never thought I needed one. When I commit to a dog I would never return him. So. returning him is not an option for me. I would be aware of any breeder who does not have a puppy contract readily available. If you do or do not get another puppy from this breeder, it is totally your decision. I had a dog die because of complications during surgery and even thought there's another vet in the same clinic... I emotionally cannot use him. Good luck and only wish for you the best outcome!>


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

so sorry about your puppy.....

puppy vaccines are easy to give, and many many breeders do their own - it keeps pups from being exposed to who knows what at a hospital and is definitely more cost effective.... UNTIL.....

Something comes up with a pup.....I worked in vet clinics for years and years, had a diabetic cat for 11 years of daily injections - but because I want pups to be examined by a vet, all pups go for a health check and 1st shots. With a really major problem, if he had been seen, the puppy would probably have been euthanized or given away with no papers....

The breeder has offered to replace the pup - that is normal for most breeders....as terrible as it sounds, there are health problems in this breed and anyone buying a pup must be willing to accept a level of risk for any puppy to have a health issue - heart, hips, elbows - even WITH certifications, these are still possible! There are NO guarantees in puppies - breeders try to roll the dice and breed responsibly, but these are animals, not machines and there are no guarantees!!!! It is very likely the breeder has not had cardiac problems before - it may be a congenital/developmental issue, not a genetic one.....

I am sorry that your pup is not good and hope that she beats the odds and lives a long time...

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In the meantime make sure your dog is given the best of diets - MEAT for taurine, carnitine (lysine) all important for cardiovascular health,
non-inflammatory
heart healthy , with Omega 3 (THREE's) 
real 8 compound Vitamin E

look into nettle, ginger, cayenne, supplements with anti-oxidants and quercetin , curcumin, elagic acid, hawthorne berries, keeping the dog hydrated ---- Co-Enzyme Q 10 especially in the most absorbable form PQQ

Canine Heart Health


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I am so sorry Piper has heart problems. I understand about bonding with her and I applaud you for doing the best for her. I wish a long life for her.

Hopefully you can work with the breeder on another puppy in the future.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm sorry your puppy has a heart problem.

Many breeders don't bring their litters to a vet because they can do their own vaccines. If there are no outward concerns, sometimes the vet's office is only going to make it more likely they get sick, because that's where all the sick, wormy, etc dogs are. I've had a few dogs from breeders but I think only one went to a vet before I brought him home. Each breeder I've bought from has encouraged me to bring my puppy to the vet within 72 hours (which it sounds like you did, so that's great).

Yes it is standard for breeders to offer a replacement puppy, not money back. Normally they also require the puppy to be returned if you are getting a replacement, so it's great that this breeder agreed to provide a replacement AND allow you to keep Piper.

The health certifications probably apply to the parents of the puppies, but not the puppies themselves. It's very likely the parents have certifications/screenings for hips, elbows, cardio, DM, but unfortunately with this breed, that is still no guarantee.


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## uhsa (Mar 29, 2016)

Hank7 said:


> Hi. We bought a puppy 3 weeks ago from a breeder in Northern IL. The breeder said he had tested for hips, elbows, cardio and more. We picked a girl and fell in love. 3 days later, we took Piper to our vet and found out she has a bad heart. We won't give her back as she is part of the family. The breeder guarantees the health of his dogs. He says we can have another dog, but not our money back. He also stated it's standard practice to replace, not refund. Is this true?


I am in the process of looking for a good breeder, I am from Chicago suburbs. I do not have any advice but I couldn't help but tell you that our prayers are with you and hoping & wishing the very best for Piper. I can't imagine any of my family member going through this. 

Also, can you PM me or just msg here the breeder's name? From what every one says - they may be completely right and trying to do the right thing. But it's good to know I guess just in case...

Again - I hope Piper has a case of false positive and lives a long, healthy life.


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