# My dog doesn't fight back



## julie87

My dog is 8 months old, she was attacked at the dog park at age of 3 months I didn't take her back there for a month.. then she was attacked again at 5 months. Now I started taking her again and she is doing much better she is not afraid of dogs anymore, only those who are starting fights. Yesterday she was attacked by a lab female that wasn't socialized with dogs... anyway my dog never fights back, instead she sits in the corner and hides or she will climb up on the bench. Why won't she stand up for herself is it normal for her age? In the house she goes crazy if stranger walks in and shows no fear but at dog park she is acting so weak!What can I do to help?


----------



## wolfy dog

Stop taking her to that park!!! She might not fight back yet, but it will imprint on her and can make her dog aggressive later on. I really don't understand why you put her at risk.


----------



## qbchottu

This is bizarre - why are you putting her in these dangerous situations? She has been attacked at this park numerous times and is fearful. Not only are you putting her in unsafe situations, you wish for her to aggress back? You should be thankful that you haven't had a full blown dog fight yet... Please stop taking your dog to this unsafe dog park.


----------



## robk

The further away from a dogs home or comfort zone they are the more vulnerable that they feel. German Shepherd dogs usually don't do well at dog parks anyway. If she ever did fight back any injuries that she or other dogs sustained will be blamed on her. You are better off to keep her in situations that make her feel safe and do not expose her to opportunities to "fight" with other dogs.


----------



## Magwart

If she's actually been _attacked_, she may be afraid -- which is pretty natural. You _must _keep her from getting attacked or you could end up with a neurotic dog. Avoid dogs who are starting fight by leaving, if necessary. A puppy shouldn't have to worry about "defending" itself at a dog park--*that's your job*. 

By the way, if she's _avoiding _aggressive, unstable or dominant dogs who might want to attack her, rather than fighting with them, that's a good thing. If she's trusting you to keep her safe, even better! If you ever see an actual fight in a dog park, you'll thank your lucky stars your dog wants no part in one -- a dog died in our local dog park that way. You _do not want _her to respond to dominance challenges by fighting back.


----------



## Lucy Dog

How many times are you going to let her get attacked before you decide the dog park might not be the best situation for her?

What can you do to help? STOP GOING!!


----------



## msvette2u

I'm with the others. Don't take her there :thumbup:



> In the house she goes crazy if stranger walks in and shows no fear but at dog park she is acting so weak!What can I do to help?


Curious what you think would help? For her to fight back??


----------



## Jag

I'm curious...are you taking her back there over and over in the hopes that she'll do damage to another dog? Sorry, but it really upsets me that you have put her in this situation over and over... and then you call her weak.


----------



## Nigel

I would forget about the dog parks if I were you. If you would like your dog to interact with other dogs, try looking into some classes. A controlled environment would be a better way to help her socialise with other dogs. Our GSD began to show signs of being DA. She was attacked a few times in her first year. She would not respond at first to the other dog, but after the last event, she did attempt to. We worked with her and now she is confident and plays well with most dogs.


----------



## doggiedad

my dog was attacked at the dog park several
times when he was 6 to 9 months old or so.
i stop going to the dog park. i returned to the dog park
when he was a year old or more and he wasn't attacked anymore.
dogs are bullies. they take advantage of the young. when i wasn't
going to the dog park i set up play dates.


----------



## frillint1

I'm not sure why you would continue to take her to somewhere that she's always getting hurt at and obviously not having fun. You should quick taking her there or you could really mess her up later on in her life.


----------



## FrankieC

Jag said:


> I'm curious...are you taking her back there over and over in the hopes that she'll do damage to another dog? Sorry, but it really upsets me that you have put her in this situation over and over... and then you call her weak.


+1 Not sure what your agenda is here.


----------



## Mary1990

You should make her feel safe, make her feel like you got her back!! and when shes fully confident you wont let anyone hurt her im sure if the time came she would protect you against anyone!


----------



## Jax08

If you are trying to create a fear aggressive dog, you are on the right track.

Are you sure she's fearless when confronted by strangers in your home? Or is she reacting to them? Personally, I don't allow my dogs to behave like that when i open the door to someone.


----------



## julie87

ok, I should have made myself more clear before all the dog lovers assume that I put my dog at risk lol  the "attack" is not really an attack aggressive dogs just growl and nip at her and then we seperate them... and thats the only "attack" there was, it wasn't bloody or anyting and my dog acted like nothing happend (went back to playing and running around) Usually its old dogs who just want to mind their own and mine tries to play with them. The reason is she is at the dog park is because I don't want her to be afraid and agressive towards big dogs. After her last "attack" when a huge boxer nipped her I didn't take her for two months, aftwards she was scared to come back. I took her a total of 6 times and we made huge progress, she is not scared of dogs and actually wants to play instead of hiding before she would come to the park and go hide under the bench now she is all over the park running around and playing... (unless some dog is starting a fight). Why do I take her? So she can play, socialize and have fun. Should I really run away from this situation? Its other dog owners who should take their dogs away from the park not me. Arexa made a huge progress in getting comfortable with big dogs why should I stop, she is right next to me if she needs help I go help her.


----------



## wolfy dog

julie87 said:


> ok, I should have made myself more clear before all the dog lovers assume that I put my dog at risk lol  the "attack" is not really an attack aggressive dogs just growl and nip at her and then we seperate them... and thats the only "attack" there was, it wasn't bloody or anyting and my dog acted like nothing happend (went back to playing and running around) Usually its old dogs who just want to mind their own and mine tries to play with them. The reason is she is at the dog park is because I don't want her to be afraid and agressive towards big dogs. After her last "attack" when a huge boxer nipped her I didn't take her for two months, aftwards she was scared to come back. I took her a total of 6 times and we made huge progress, she is not scared of dogs and actually wants to play instead of hiding before she would come to the park and go hide under the bench now she is all over the park running around and playing... (unless some dog is starting a fight). Why do I take her? So she can play, socialize and have fun. Should I really run away from this situation? Its other dog owners who should take their dogs away from the park not me. Arexa made a huge progress in getting comfortable with big dogs why should I stop, she is right next to me if she needs help I go help her.


It sounds like you are defending your actions instead of taking the advice. I have not misunderstood you and there is nothing to "LOL" about it. Believe me, you are setting her up for fear aggression.


----------



## julie87

wolfy dog said:


> It sounds like you are defending your actions instead of taking the advice. I have not misunderstood you and there is nothing to "LOL" about it. Believe me, you are setting her up for fear aggression.


So, in your opinion if she shows progress its actually a bad thing?


----------



## Jax08

I guess you should have made yourself more clear as we can only take what you tell us and go from there. 

So your dog acted like nothing happened and went back to playing after the "attack" was stopped? or did she climb up on a bench and act weak like you stated in your first post? There's a big difference in the statements.

if she went back to acting like nothing happened, you should be grateful because it means she recovered quickly.


----------



## msvette2u

> anyway my dog never fights back, instead she sits in the corner and hides or she will climb up on the bench.


This is not a dog that is having fun.

You can continue to take her against everyone's advice, and get her injured and/or turn her very aggressive towards other dogs, or you could seek out friends with similar aged dogs to have controlled interactions and play.


----------



## llombardo

julie87 said:


> So, in your opinion if she shows progress its actually a bad thing?


It only takes one thing to get you and the dog back to square one. If you want her to progress..take her to a class with stable, social dogs that she doesn't have to worry about.


----------



## julie87

msvette2u said:


> This is not a dog that is having fun.
> 
> You can continue to take her against everyone's advice, and get her injured and/or turn her very aggressive towards other dogs, or you could seek out friends with similar aged dogs to have controlled interactions and play.


 
it happens once in blue moon, like for example it happened this time because the guy brought his 2 labs who were never socialized before and they were trying to start fights with ALL dogs. Arexa has tons of fun 95% of the time... as far as play dates she has our neightbors dog to play with. I understand that it can get very ugly if fights arent stopped on time...but im right next to her so Its very unluckly that it will ever happen... and like i said the fact that she is not scared of "normal" dogs means so much to me I don't want her to be aggressive and attack dogs out of fear.


----------



## Magwart

I'm confused now. So she wasn't attacked, but she's fearful of other dogs who nip at her, including older dogs who find her annoying, and you want her to nip back? ("Usually its old dogs who just want to mind their own and mine tries to play with them.") As opposed to de-escalating, which is what she's doing now?

If an older dog thinks she's being a pest and growls at her to tell her to go away, what is your reasoning for expecting her to "fight back"? As an owner of a senior dog, if my younger dogs bother him, they get told to leave him alone -- _*by me. *_ I'd shoo a pestie-youngster away from him at the dog park, if she were jumping on or nipping at my old guy; and as an owner of a young dog, I'd get my youngster away from any one else's senior she was bothering, as it's not acceptable behavior to me, and seniors should be able to enjoy the park without young ones harassing them.

She's an insecure dog. I have had several dogs like that--we paid for a lot of sessions of controlled play care where all the dogs are carefully screened and matched to play style (my little adolescent GSD mix currently gets matched at the vet's play care with _little dogs, _as the staff there understands the play care is rehabilitative for her, and they won't overwhelm her since she's a very gentle playmate--the rough-and-tumble of the big-dog play time would scare her--but she made friends with some of the little dogs). With my shy ones, I take it slowly and let them decide when they are ready to run and play.

It sounds like from your first post that she's telling you with her body language and avoidance that it's too much for her.


----------



## Jag

I don't believe that you're 'clarifying' your first post. One of the two is bologna. Your first post clearly stated your dog had been attacked many times, and is now hiding and going into avoidance when there. This does NOT sound like she's having a good time. My previous and current dogs have never been to a dog park, and get along just fine with other dogs. If you keep taking her, you're going to get a DA dog. I'm troubled by your handling of this pup... from the ecollar use to the dog park to your wanting her to 'fight back'. If you can't straighten out your thinking and treat this pup well, maybe it's time to consider re-homing. A dog that does not trust its handler will never protect the handler. Instead of trying to change your story and defend your actions, you need to take responsibility for your mistakes and seriously try to understand GSDs and take care of her.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

llombardo said:


> If you want her to progress..take her to a class with stable, social dogs that she doesn't have to worry about.


:thumbup: Exactly! You can run into some weird dogs in training classes, but it's a controlled environment so the chances of your dog actually being attacked are a lot less than taking her to the park. 

There are hundreds of post on this forum from people whose dogs want to fight with other dogs and they're trying to figure out to get them to stop the behavior. Be thankful that your dog doesn't want to fight and stop putting her in situations where she might get hurt.


----------



## julie87

I realized I should never have posted this thread i told you the situation as is, there is no point of defending myself why should I ?!!! whats the point?!! Jag rehoming? You want me to give up my dog because I want her to be socialized and not scared, I told you before there is huge progress in her behavior. And yes I do use shock collar occasionally and it works. The only useful advice I got is to take her to class with stable dogs which i will. Thanks for your input everyone. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## x11

i think the consensus among savvy handlers is that dog parks are the place not to be.


----------



## msvette2u

x11 said:


> i think the consensus among savvy handlers is that dog parks are the place not to be.


Too unstructured for a potentially reactive or fearful dog.


----------



## dazedtrucker

My 2 cents... you need to study up on dog behaviour a bit. (I'm not being critical). From what I have read, I am seeing a pup being submissive as to not start a fight in which she knows is not in her best interest.. that's really smart  Dogs communicate in this way.. say she is annoying a bigger/older dog, she knows she is just trying to start PLAY, but when the other dog gives her the message "I dont feel like playing, GO AWAY!" (by nipping and acting "aggressive", this is not true aggression, its just a firm STOP IT!) she has the good sense to give a submissive message, like a "Sorry" by retreating. If she was too "fight back", or give them attitude, it would be a challenge (like MAKE ME!), which could easily esculate to a nasty exchange. I've had good dog park experiences when Axel was younger, but choose not to go very often anymore, the last couple times badly behaved dogs of others ruined it, he was attacked by a tiny horrible creature the last time.. and I was scared to death he would snap at it (and do damage) while I ran to him commanding NO. He listened, and the dogs idiot (owner) proceeded to yell at me for having an aggressive dog  . We left. Yes... they should have left, but it seems the idiots outnumber the decent folks alot of times...
A nice long walk on a long line is what I do most of the time now with my furbabies


----------



## Mrs.P

Why not do puppy classes? When Enzo went a few of us would meet up outside of class to let them play together. Worked out great! Got to socialize the pups and a tired puppy is a happy puppy 

Also do you have any friends with well socialized dogs? One of my husband's friends has a senior golden and she would play with Enzo but when she had enough she would let him know and he would stop. Good for him to be around all ages.


----------



## julie87

My friends have small dogs who bite my dog and she just ignores it.. They are not socialized I guess but can't harm either I guess my dog is just not a fighter, not that I want her to be I was just curious... The reason I posted this thread is to see what other GSD owners had to say about their experiences with a puppy. The other day I was at dog park and this super nice old guy has two GSDs told me when they were pups they were both scared of dog park at first just like mine until now they act like they own the place, made me smile  Arexa plays so good with GSDs for some reason I notice that labs are not friendly to her... Strange. I guess you would have to be there to see what's happening, she is having a great time until crazy dog comes over and barking and nipping then Arexa either hides or jump on me and then we separate the "attacking" dog. I would hate to take away the fun from her just because of idiot dogs are ruining it for her...


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## frillint1

Maybe you should try doing classes for awhile to socolize and do obedience. They maybe try a different dog park or try going at a different time when it's not so busy.


----------



## Benny

As everyone else is stating, I'd avoid the dog park for a while.. Dogs fighting among dogs is one thing, but if owners try and get between them to break it up they can end up with serious injuries which nobody likes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Dainerra

others have given you their experiences with a puppy - mainly that dog parks are going to create more issues than they solve.
It's kind of like sending your quiet "nerdy" child to a summer camp for delinquents hoping that he will learn to like baseball better than video games.


----------



## NancyJ

My experiences over the years with puppies have been to evolve to highly control their interactions with only known safe dogs so they can learn how to properly communicate in "dog". 

No interest anymore in letting dogs run and play with strange dogs--it is more work on me to create the other outlets but it makes the bond between me and my dog stronger.

The last two dogs have had no puppy play time and they are the most confident and stable ones I have had. A lot genetics but I also think a good bit is learning.


----------



## Jo Ellen

My experience with Spirit -- he's 9 months old now.

I have never taken him to a dog park and never will. I'm too much into control for that type of environment. Yes, I control his interactions as much as possible. He has my senior golden retriever to play with, she's been good to him and has taught him a few good lessons. I want him to grow up and live his life with no serious dog fights, certainly to never be attacked. Lofty goal, but there it is. 

I'm not going to insist on my rights or his rights if doing so may bring harm.

So I can't say that I have actively taught him how to respond to unfriendly dogs. I've just kept him safe and I've made good choices for him. Still, he's a peace keeper. If he's in a group of dogs and one starts growling or getting snippy, Spirit will leave the group and go do something else, graze on grass, whatever. He defuses the situtaion. After awhile, he will come back and try again. And keep trying until he's accepted. He's actually quite brilliant about this, I'm very impressed with him. Did I teach him this? Not exactly. I have just kept him safe.

My point is you can teach a dog so many things just by keeping them safe.


----------



## doggiedad

continue to play with the neighbors dogs. find
some other dogs that she plays well with and 
meet somewhere. set up some play dates with
the friendly dogs from the dog park. find another dog park.


----------



## llombardo

I've been to the dog park with my other dogs and it is not a place that I would bring my GSD(or my other two anymore)The only time my GSD had playtime with dogs(other then my other two or close friends dogs) is in her puppy class and that was only one other puppy. She has been around lots of dogs(all sizes). In another class(5 classes after the first class) there were exercises where the dogs in the group acknowledged each other, but the goal was training with distractions. The teachers Leonberger in that class did go for my dog and my dog backed down quickly. I didn't see a problem with that, I thought it was a smart choice. The Leonberger was female, older then mine, and almost triple the weight. Mine has little dogs in her face and she doesn't walk away, but she doesn't react(besides looking at them like they are crazy). I do think having other dogs in the home helps a lot when a puppy is brought in, mine have taught her lots of stuff(the other two are very good tempered) I always have dogs coming in and out(strays), so its important that all my dogs allow this.


----------



## Wolfgeist

Dog parks are awful places, stop taking her there. She shouldn't have to defend herself, you should be preventing attacks from other dogs. Besides, she's a baby.


----------



## msvette2u

To put it another way...you don't teach a child to swim and be brave in the water by tossing them in the deep end.

You can't teach a dog to be not afraid by surrounding him with dogs that may attack him.


----------



## gaia_bear

I used to go to the dog park every night with the same group of people. Gaia used to love playing and being an idiot, around the 7-8 month mark I noticed a change in her where she'd much rather play alone and couldn't care less about the other dogs. So we stopped our dog park trips and now go to a large open field where she can roam, explore and fetch to her hearts content. I don't believe dogs need to have friends, my goal was to have her be comfortable around other dogs and this was one of the venues I used. 

I strongly suggest a group class to up the socialization, as it will be a controlled environment where the trainers should be able to pick up on the subtle signs we sometimes miss. 

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ayla

I'd say find a better dog park or talk to some of the other owners to set up play dates. I've never seen any fights at the dog park we go to. Though Keira seems more like the pup mentioned before me, she doesn't play a bunch with other dogs but she needs to become more socialized... Best of luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wolfy dog

julie87 said:


> My friends have small dogs who bite my dog and she just ignores it.. They are not socialized I guess but can't harm either I guess my dog is just not a fighter, not that I want her to be I was just curious...


These little pests might not injure her but they are doing a lot of damage to her emotionally. And your friend can also use some help with her dogs.
So on top of her bad dog park experiences you also allow this?!!
Give us an update two years from now. I am almost sure you will have huge problems in lunging and barking at other dogs if not attacking them while off leash when she is bigger.
You sound very irresponsible or you still don't get the seriousness of this situation. You came to look for advice and then you get upset when it is not hat you want to hear.
I feel very sorry for your dog whose owner doesn't protect her. Please take a step back and look at your situation, thentake the advice form the experienced ones on the forum.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

why not make ALL of her interactions with other dogs POSITIVE vs potentially negative? 

Find some people who's dogs have no problem with her and vice versa and stick with them vs putting her into a situation that you can't be 100% positive nothing will happen.

Keep her AWAY from the idiot dogs so she can HAVE fun, the more she' get's nailed, the more insecure it's going to make her in the long run..

You need to STOP what's happening to her BEFORE it happens, vs during or afterwards.

One day, she may grab one of those small dogs and kill it because she's fed up, then you'll be dealing with a very po'd owner or friend.


----------



## AJT

After reading everyone's post and advice, the first question that popped in my head is...does your dog get exercise/fun in other ways than a dog park? Meaning, does Arexa get long walks, go swimming, go hiking, do classes, etc? 

I'll admit I'm not a fan of dog parks but I do allow my 10 month old GSD to wear herself out with her dog friends. It is nice to have her frolick with her dog friends but it is not the only way that she is allowed to have fun. I don't rely on the dog park as the only source of her exercise/fun. If I have to take the dog park out of her activities, we have plenty of other things to do. 

Not all dogs need or should go to a dog park nor is it NECCESSARY to go to a dog park. When I had my aggressive lab, we did not go to a dog park we did a lot of hiking and a lot of dock diving. 

I think the subject of the post makes people think you want her to fight back. It's a bit misleading. 

My two cents.

...and now I'm waiting for someone to jump all over me over my post hehe.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

AJT, your post was great))


----------



## julie87

Yes we play and we take walks for exercise and she plays with neighbors dog. Do I want her to fight back? No,I want her to defend herself if she is in danger I know it sounds confusing... What if something happens and im not there? she is not the only dog I have seen that doesn't fight back, there atre other young dogs that also don't defend themselves they do same thing Arexa does except some of then actually lay on the ground being submissive which is sad. The older dogs dont act like that.. i think maybe I need to talk to a professional.I don't know dog behavior she is my first GSD and I am just surprised that she doesn't do anything to stand up for herself except for running away... The guy told him his two GSDs were like that at forst I wonder if other GSD's were like that that's why I asked the question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Carriesue

I can understand wanting to go to the dog park... Where I live is so densely packed and crowded with people and I do not have the luxury of big open spaces to let my dog run off leash or just to simply be somewhere where there aren't other people and dogs like a lot of people on this forum. The only place like that I can take them to is a two hour drive each way and I can't go there year round.

I do take my pup to the dog park BUT the only park I take him too is a locals only one, same people there everyday... I know a lot of the people there and their dogs. Even with that I am on his butt the whole time we're there, I follow him everywhere and never take my eyes off him... I do not let other dogs harass him and I do not let him annoy other dogs with his puppy antics. If there's any funny business even if it doesn't involve my dog, I leave.

But like the above poster said, I don't rely on that for his exercise... We do walks, hikes, go to the beach, training and lots of other things. And for me the dog park is only a temporary thing, I don't plan on taking him anymore when he's an adult. In my book, not fighting back is a good thing.


----------



## llombardo

julie87 said:


> Yes we play and we take walks for exercise and she plays with neighbors dog. Do I want her to fight back? No,I want her to defend herself if she is in danger I know it sounds confusing... What if something happens and im not there? she is not the only dog I have seen that doesn't fight back, there atre other young dogs that also don't defend themselves they do same thing Arexa does except some of then actually lay on the ground being submissive which is sad. The older dogs dont act like that.. i think maybe I need to talk to a professional.I don't know dog behavior she is my first GSD and I am just surprised that she doesn't do anything to stand up for herself except for running away... The guy told him his two GSDs were like that at forst I wonder if other GSD's were like that that's why I asked the question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App



I'm not understanding what you don't understand. You don't want your dog to fight back. You should be there to get her out of trouble at the first sight of it. There is no way that you can get her out of trouble if both dogs are going at it...at that point you might as well count on either a dead dog or lots of medical bills. Your dog is being smart and going the other way...she is making the right choice. Why do I get the feeling that you are embarrassed because you feel your dog is a wimp? Your dog is making the right choices for the situations she's in, don't keep pushing her, because you will have a mess. It doesn't matter if she is a GSD or a poodle, you want a dog that isn't dog aggressive or dog reactive. A professional is not going to help you teach your dog how to fight. A professional might help you figure out that your dog does not belong in any situation where she has to protect herself EVER.


----------



## AJT

Ok, so that makes sense to me -- defending herself if she is in danger. Just a heads up that is a pretty loaded line when stating that on GSD board and here is why without trying to seem like everyone is jumping down your throat. 

Since you are there to witness her non-defensive behavior during dog park play...have you considered that she views you as her leader of the pack? She relies on you to come to defend her and protect her. You'll notice that when a dog goes down there are times they try to quickly look towards you (at least I know my dog does). 

Your next line is going to get you heat -- what if something happens and im not here. If your referring to her being at the dog park and your not there...there is just a lot of q's that I would have to ask right there. I assume you mean when she is alone while you are at work type of situation, right? 

Just like humans who don't opt to fight back, there are dogs who also don't opt to fight back. Not all dogs will fight back. Tempraments vary, just like humans. I don't think I consider a dog who opts to not fight back a sad thing. My dog Ava doesn't fight back but I also don't allow her to get harassed her for her to harrass another dog. 

A dog professional/trainer/behaviorist is a great thing to consider! 

I think I understand what you want. It is what I want in my dog. You want a confident dog and hopefully not a dog that immediately goes on the offensive if another dog gives her the stink eye. That is something that takes time and requires a committment on your end to help her get that confidence. 

Another heads up...alot of the board members here all want the best for their dogs and other dogs, particularly GSD's. Everyone here has some great opinions and experience and generally is supportive. Just always think what YOU can do better before thinking everyone here is maliciously trying to rip you apart. Playing defense is not always the way! 



julie87 said:


> Yes we play and we take walks for exercise and she plays with neighbors dog. Do I want her to fight back? No,I want her to defend herself if she is in danger I know it sounds confusing... What if something happens and im not there? she is not the only dog I have seen that doesn't fight back, there atre other young dogs that also don't defend themselves they do same thing Arexa does except some of then actually lay on the ground being submissive which is sad. The older dogs dont act like that.. i think maybe I need to talk to a professional.I don't know dog behavior she is my first GSD and I am just surprised that she doesn't do anything to stand up for herself except for running away... The guy told him his two GSDs were like that at forst I wonder if other GSD's were like that that's why I asked the question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## julie87

AJT exactly. I'm just trying to explain how it is you can call it defense doesn't matter, anyways.. I want her to be confident and I hate seeing her being bullied. other dog owners dont like me at the dog park because I follow her around and separate even a small growl they think that their dogs just"playing".. well i am not going to stand there and see if its going to turn into more than "playing" last time was not pleasant at all the dude's dogs were annoying mine and I asked him to take them away and he left the park. Wish they could just get along so everyone can enjoy their time.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ziltoid

Mine is the same, she will always back down if a dog gets a bit aggressive towards her. I actually prefer it that way because things don't blow out of control before I get in there.

From my experience it's an age thing, my previous dogs were the same but at 12-18 months old they'd start standing up for themselves.

I know people here are anti dog parks but personally I think they are fantastic. I tend to go at the same times so there are always a group of dogs (and owners) we know. Occasionally you get a dog that shouldn't be there but 99% of dogs and owners are great. I have almost as much chance of bumping into agro dogs on the street while doing a leashed walk as i do while at the park so i keep going.

My dog absolutely loves it there and it's one of the few places i can let her off lead, so i think it's worth it.

Matter of fact i just started taking my 16 week old male up with us a couple of days ago.

There are a couple of dogs that shouldn't go to the park and tend to have a go at my female but i know them so leave if i see them turn up. I don't see them too often though because they're not the friendliest dogs so their owner usually goes at less busy times. Funnily enough the 2 dogs i've had most problems with are female GSDs.


----------



## codmaster

Magwart said:


> If she's actually been _attacked_, she may be afraid -- which is pretty natural. You _must _keep her from getting attacked or you could end up with a neurotic dog. Avoid dogs who are starting fight by leaving, if necessary. A puppy shouldn't have to worry about "defending" itself at a dog park--*that's your job*.
> 
> By the way, if she's _avoiding _aggressive, unstable or dominant dogs who might want to attack her, rather than fighting with them, that's a good thing. If she's trusting you to keep her safe, even better! If you ever see an actual fight in a dog park, you'll thank your lucky stars your dog wants no part in one -- a dog died in our local dog park that way. *You do not want her to respond to dominance challenges by fighting back*.


Actually, if my dog wasn't a little puppy, that is exactly what i would want - to at least try to defend her/himself! 

I would never let it get that far of course; but i wouldn't my dog to try to hide behind me. that is not the GSD temperament at all.

Little pups are different of course but as they get toward adult hood the dog should be willing to defend itself!


----------



## codmaster

Mary1990 said:


> You should make her feel safe, make her feel like you got her back!! and when shes fully confident you wont let anyone hurt her im sure if the time came she *would protect you against anyone*!


 
Not if she won't protect herself!

In the OP case I would not take an obviously weak dog (or too much of a puppy with older dogs) to the dog park at all. Asking for trouble sooner or later.


----------



## codmaster

Some people also don't fight back when attacked (called pacifists), nothinhg wrong with that as long as they are aware of what their actions are. OTOH, sometimes it is better to retreat if there are overwhelming forces raised against you. But sometimes you (or your dog) are going to get beaten up or worse anyway so why not give it your (or your dogs) best shot - at least inflict a little harm in self defense?

just a thought!

Another thought - what would anyone think of an adult GSD who sttod by or ran away if their owner were being attacked?

or what would we think of an owner who didn't try their best to help their dog if he/she were to be attacked by another dog (or person)?

Seems to me it is a 2 way street and i would certainly expect my dog to do it's part.

BTW, i once had a 9mo male GSD who was quite spirited and effective in defense when I was jumped by a couple of folks a LONG time ago at a dump where I was dropping some junk off. He got a number of pretty good bites in before the two decided it was better for them to leave. We made quite a team!


----------



## julie87

Ziltoid said:


> Mine is the same, she will always back down if a dog gets a bit aggressive towards her. I actually prefer it that way because things don't blow out of control before I get in there.
> 
> From my experience it's an age thing, my previous dogs were the same but at 12-18 months old they'd start standing up for themselves.
> 
> I know people here are anti dog parks but personally I think they are fantastic. I tend to go at the same times so there are always a group of dogs (and owners) we know. Occasionally you get a dog that shouldn't be there but 99% of dogs and owners are great. I have almost as much chance of bumping into agro dogs on the street while doing a leashed walk as i do while at the park so i keep going.
> 
> My dog absolutely loves it there and it's one of the few places i can let her off lead, so i think it's worth it.
> 
> Matter of fact i just started taking my 16 week old male up with us a couple of days ago.
> 
> There are a couple of dogs that shouldn't go to the park and tend to have a go at my female but i know them so leave if i see them turn up. I don't see them too often though because they're not the friendliest dogs so their owner usually goes at less busy times. Funnily enough the 2 dogs i've had most problems with are female GSDs.


 
thats exactely what Im saying.. the youngsters are the scared ones, and the pups have so much fun at the park I just don't want to take it away from her just because of other idiot dogs.


----------



## Jag

Yeah, I can totally see your point. I'm sure your dog has a BLAST at the dog park! She's only been attacked a few times. I'm sure she's putting out a nervous energy when she goes now, which is like a target on her back for older, more aggressive dogs. You probably won't have to wait too much longer for her to stop being "weak" though. One of these days she'll probably turn that fear and bad experiences into DA. I'd get medical insurance on her now, and start a savings account to pay for the other dogs' medical expenses. She'll start "protecting herself" against every dog she sees. Better to take them out before they could come after her. Hopefully she won't get hold of a small dog and kill it, because they will probably sue you and demand that your 'aggressive' dog be put down. But hey, she was having such a good time at the dog park, and at least she stopped being 'weak', right?


----------



## julie87

She loves small dogs and she has pet insurance and she does have fun thank you for your suggestions Jag Happy New Year 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## codmaster

julie87 said:


> thats exactely what Im saying.. the youngsters are the scared ones, and the pups have so much fun at the park I just don't want to take it away from her just because of other idiot dogs.


*If you are sure that those "idiot dogs" are no threat to your dog, then I would say just enjoy your time at the dog park!*


----------



## Muneraven

Smart dogs know when to be aggressive and they use it sparingly. I had a collie cross mutt many years ago who could seem almost timid, certainly indifferent to people and dogs he didn't know. But one day he was in our yard bouncing around with the neighbor's two smaller dogs (his pals) and this guy walks by with a big German Shepherd unleashed. The shepherd suddenly turned and rushed our neighbor's dog and snapped at it, scaring it badly. The guy called his shepherd back(through much bellowing) and the dog went reluctantly, looking for more trouble. My dog Noah suddenly, silently took off like a shot and bowled the big shepherd over into a muddy ditch! The shepherd started screaming like he was shot, lol. Big bully. Noah came back when I said his name and stood there watching the guy fish his muddy dog back onto the road. So you see, a dog who backs down from most fights may well NOT back down when he perceives it as NECESSARY to protect someone.

This same dog knew exactly where our property line was and, if the kids were outside playing and grown men walked by on the road he would go out and pace alongside the men just four feet inside our property line staring at them. When a guy asked if he would bite, I said "Not if you stay on the road, but he probably will if you approach the kids." I didn't teach him to do this. He just picked the proper moments to be protective and I allowed that.

Let your dog grow up and you might be surprised at how good a dog can be at deciding when a fight isn't worth it and when a bit of posturing or even mild aggression is necessary. You have to let them get past being a teenager dog, though!


----------



## codmaster

Muneraven said:


> Smart dogs know when to be aggressive and they use it sparingly. I had a collie cross mutt many years ago who could seem almost timid, certainly indifferent to people and dogs he didn't know. But one day he was in our yard bouncing around with the neighbor's two smaller dogs (his pals) and this guy walks by with a big German Shepherd unleashed. The shepherd suddenly turned and rushed our neighbor's dog and snapped at it, scaring it badly. The guy called his shepherd back(through much bellowing) and the dog went reluctantly, looking for more trouble. My dog Noah suddenly, silently took off like a shot and bowled the big shepherd over into a muddy ditch! The shepherd started screaming like he was shot, lol. Big bully. Noah came back when I said his name and stood there watching the guy fish his muddy dog back onto the road. So you see, a dog who backs down from most fights may well NOT back down when he perceives it as NECESSARY to protect someone.
> 
> This same dog knew exactly where our property line was and, if the kids were outside playing and grown men walked by on the road he would go out and pace alongside the men just four feet inside our property line staring at them. When a guy asked if he would bite, I said "Not if you stay on the road, but he probably will if you approach the kids." I didn't teach him to do this. He just picked the proper moments to be protective and I allowed that.
> 
> Let your dog grow up and you might be surprised at how good a dog can be at deciding when a fight isn't worth it and when a bit of posturing or even mild aggression is necessary. You have to let them get past being a teenager dog, though!


 
What a bully that GSD was and evidently a real coward as well. And your dog was hero - like Lassie!

But why would he bite someone for just walking near the kids - that sure doesn't sound like the Lassie i knew. How close would he let the four grown men get to the kids before he would bite all of the men?


----------



## Magwart

There are some dogs at dog parks who give of energy that causes other dogs to pick on them--esp. around 1 year old. My male, when he was young and insecure, was like that. Once he was lying on the ground in the shade by himself catching a breather from play when a random dog pounced on him with ill intentions. I immediately pulled that dog up by the scruff and sent it on its way with its mortified owner. I carefully policed interactions in the dog park. If bad dogs arrive--and you can feel the energy of the park change--we leave. If there are dogs who are minor annoyances, we stay on the opposite end of the park and avoid them -- going with friends with stable dogs makes this easy. 

My dog's energy changed as matured. He grew up to be gregarious, sociable and enjoys dog parks and play care -- he wasn't damaged. He grew out of being targeted as he got more confident and bigger. He's not FA or DA. However, we monitored interactions at parks closely, shooed away or avoided nasty dogs, planned play sessions with friends at the park, and paid for _a lot _of supervised play care with carefully chosen, temperament tested dogs that he got to know well. We also built his confidence up through obedience training.

He's a great pacifist -- never been in a true fight in his life, and he'll try hard to avoid from dogs that are aggressive--he's naturally pretty submissive. However, when an off-leash ankle biter ran from it's owner and lunged at my leg on when were out walking on a sidewalk, he surprised me by jumping between me and that dog, pinning it with a paw, and putting his jaws over its head to hold it--without biting down. It happened in the blink of an eye before I even had time to react. But then he paused, and he looked at me and asked with his eyes, "Um, what do I do now?" He released the terrified nasty dog with a "leave it" command--_because he trust me._

I'm going to repeat what I've said several times one last time: protect your dog at the dog park, not just physically, but also in terms of the company it keeps. Mine grew up fine with other dogs because I did that. I tried to be very thoughtful about the kinds of dogs I wanted mine interacting with, and created opportunities for that to happen. Stable, sociable dogs teach younger dogs to be stable and sociable. Unstable, nasty dogs teach younger dogs to be unstable and nasty. It's that simple.


----------



## NancyJ

Magwart said:


> Stable, sociable dogs teach younger dogs to be stable and sociable. Unstable, nasty dogs teach younger dogs to be unstable and nasty. It's that simple.


Worth repeating!


----------



## pets4life

the op dog is not weak it is 8 months old they dont know what the dog will turn out like when it is older. A dog can seem weak at that age then turn into a monster when it matures be careful what you wish for seriously. I have seen a dog i thought was a submissive push over turn into a very dominant dog when it matured. It was still a social dog but if another dog pissed it off it turned dangerous. You have no idea what your dog will be like cause it needs a few years to mature. You are suppose to protect it from now and keep it out of places like that.


----------



## pets4life

ALso you are going to ruin your dogs future because when shes mature she will be so so on guard it might not be safe to take her around any dogs anymore. At this time all her experiences are suppose to be positive.

Yeah i have seen what magwart talks about insecure dogs seem to get targeted I dont know why but my dog will sometimes look at a dog and just not like them for no reason I suspect they insecure or something else I really dont know but later if i talk to the owner there is something the owner has trouble with that dog like one dog for example would try to bite the owner around its food etc.. I am not sure why but my dog picks up certain vibes from other dogs. I am sure if she was a young dog maybe other dogs would have picked up from her? but when she was young she was only allowed to meet her family never strange dogs.

Mine doesnt ever actually attack an insecure dog or anything just kinda points them out.


----------



## wolfy dog

Magwart said:


> I'm going to repeat what I've said several times one last time: protect your dog at the dog park, not just physically, but also in terms of the company it keeps. Mine grew up fine with other dogs because I did that. I tried to be very thoughtful about the kinds of dogs I wanted mine interacting with, and created opportunities for that to happen. Stable, sociable dogs teach younger dogs to be stable and sociable. Unstable, nasty dogs teach younger dogs to be unstable and nasty. It's that simple.


This is how I keep WD safe and social. He has never been in a fight or even close to it because I protect him and trust my gut feeling, not the other owners who tell me that his/her dog "is OK". I don't care if I offend the other owner.
The "leave it" command has been a life saver on many occasions.


----------



## GSD2

You have gotten some great advice here. Yes, it is too bad to 'ruin your dogs fun' because of a few idiots. It is what it is. You can not control the idiots that go to that dog park, you can't control other people. You can have control over your dogs interactions with other dogs by the choices you make for her.

Getting a good trainer or behaviorist is a great idea, they not only work with the dog, an important part of their job is to teach the human. A good group obediance class may do wonders for both you and your dog.

I also recommend you read and learn as much as you can about dog behavior. Some authors I like are Stanley Coren, Patricia McDonnell and Turid Rugass.

Your dog is a puppy and the interactions with other dogs at this time need to be positive, I'd not take any chances for your dog to have problems with other dogs, as others have said you may end up with a mess when he/she is an adult. It may appear the small dogs that 'bite' her are of no consequence and 'do not harm' your dog, if nothing else it can be very stressful for her and bites can brusie and hurt! If she has never been 'attacked' at this dog park, that still doesn't mean it won't happen, it only takes once.......

Learn as much as you can about dog behavior/communication from trainers/behaviorists and/or reading books about dog behavior/dog communication.


----------



## wolfy dog

Another issue is what do you consider a dog park? The only problem dog park in our area is the one that is fenced. I think it changes dogs' and people's behavior. In the open parks, people tend to walk which I think prevents dogs from setting up a territory like they do in the fenced park where people sit on benches and talk without watching their dogs. This fenced park is "ruled" by an incrowd of owners with dogs that are not under control. That's why they go to the fenced park I guess. If you see a problem dog entering the park, you cannot leave without encountering that dog since there is only one entrance/exit. It is an interesting concept and worth studying more indepth.


----------



## codmaster

If it is not fenced, can it be a dog park? I would think it would just be a field in that case.

Unless maybe the county or other authority just lets dogs be off leash in that field?


----------



## pets4life

I just went through this all how come no one even said a 8 month old gsd will get creamed if it did dare defend itself with a serious adult dog like another gsd?? Imagine what would happen to it? The only thing to do for a pup this young is to get submissive.


Did you guys notice a lot of dogs after a year get sick of going into the submissive position and that is when other dogs start to leave them alone.


----------



## codmaster

pets4life said:


> I just went through this all how come no one even said a 8 month old gsd will get creamed if it did dare defend itself with a serious adult dog like another gsd?? Imagine what would happen to it? The only thing to do for a pup this young is to get submissive.


*Might want to read the thread before commenting* - a number of posters, myself included made much reference to the fact that the OP dog was a puppy.


BTW, I and probably others, have had dogs that at 8/9 mo WOULD fight back even against an adult (they would get eaten!) but they would try to defend themselves. 

Not to say you want them to do so, but that was in their temperament and genetics!


----------



## ken k

wolfy dog said:


> Stop taking her to that park!!! She might not fight back yet, but it will imprint on her and can make her dog aggressive later on. I really don't understand why you put her at risk.


this


----------



## pets4life

my dog is decent but if she gets attacked by another dog there isnt really a fight she will just attach to the other dog and it becomes impossible to peel her off. Doesnt matter what the dog is. But shes a great dog just if a dog attacks her or nails her she will grab that dog with her teeth and legs paws even stick to them. Its usually larger older dogs that have attacked her.

Mine loves pups tho would probably have been a great dog for the OP dog if we introduced them proper. Mine seems to love attention pups and some teenager dogs give her. Male or female.


----------

