# WGWL in CA recommendation needed



## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Hey , hope everyone has a wonderful summer with your dog w/wo shelter in place 

We are living in SF bay area looking for WGWL with Black-Red color.
I did some research both google and here but could not find answer. some post are pretty out of date. 
I know there are many breeders here in bay area but unfortunately they are seems not Black-Red color. I understand that SL could be better chance to have that color but I'd prefer WGWL.


Thanks in advance


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Out of many, MANY, GSD... including photos, I have only seen 1 full WL dog that I’d consider black and red. He was from a kennel (Adlerstein in SoCal) that I believe no longer breeds.

Occasionally the color can be found in dogs of mixed lineage, but that’s a controversial topic/practice to some.

Might need to consider adjusting your search criteria and ask what’s more important to you.


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

true , only saw one *MI-JOS CAYENNE. retired long time ago. *


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wensiliu said:


> true , only saw one *MI-JOS CAYENNE. retired long time ago. *


I don’t know what she’s registered as (genetically black & tan/red/cream/brown are all the same), but personally I wouldn’t consider her to be red. It’s not impossible to find a Black and Tan WL.

Are you looking at actual red pigment, or the saddle back pattern?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

IMO you are missing the boat. Why do you want a working line GSD? Coat color should be at the bottom of your priority list.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Think about what's more important the dog as a whole or color. Color should be at the bottom of the priority list. There are lots of sables that have red pigment but if you're talking about saddle backs then your most likely going to find that in show lines


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I don’t necessarily think there’s anything wrong with a color preference as long as you don’t settle in other crucial areas. For instance, I’m not going to sacrifice health, temperament or ignore any red flags just to get the color I want.... but if it’s truly that important to someone, within the breed standard and they’re willing to wait - then to each his own.


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

@Chip Blasiole @NadDog24 
Thanks for point out. I understand that I need heathy temperament other than color. 
actually my point is , saying waterfowl dog, if I can choose, I'd prefer yellow Labrador other than black and chocolate. 
my goal is she will be family member. she should has solid temperament, love to learn, long work ability and smart enough to identify the hunting overnight or family camping out. if she could be trained with soft mouth, thats would be perfect. sounds like a Labrador totally. haha 

thx again


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

@Fodder thanks for understand , 😭, the bottom line is heath clearance, then the temperament.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Black and red typically points towars wgsl dogs. If that look is important to you, look there... But as others have said, you can get the prettiest nightmare, or the best dog you've ever owned...do your homework on the line and the kennel!

Good Luck!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Regarding waterfowl dogs, field/working line Labs are akin working line GSDs and pet or showline labs are akin to show line GSDs. Trainers of waterfowl dogs for field trial are pretty brutal in their training and don't tend to train in drive at all and are heavy into compulsion, especially electric. It doesn't make much sense to me since the dogs are not used in situations which could be a matter of life and death as in a police dog, but that is the culture of most field dog trainers. A Lab from non working lines could not tolerate the training.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wensiliu said:


> @Fodder thanks for understand , 😭, the bottom line is heath clearance, then the temperament.


Ha, well my understanding isn’t going to make a breeder or dog appear any easier... like everyone has already mentioned, WGSL are 99.9% black and red.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Also, soft mouth? Have you ever met a GSD puppy?
Honestly... I’d consider a young rescue. Put lines aside, get the color and temperament you want with a bit of maturity. Please don’t support anyone breeding labradors in a GSD coat.


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

thanks @Fodder, big concern from rescue is heath clearance and heredity temperament unsure. I am a bit not confidence of that. I don't have experience with GSD puppy.


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

that coat works


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I would suggest you research the difference between show lines and working lines. Pick a line then find a good breeder and work with them to find the right puppy. From your description of what you want I'd think medium drives, biddable with an off switch. GSD can be an amazing family pets and companions, however when compared to a lab it will take a lot more of your time in training and working with the GSD to end up with that vs a lab that is housebroken and goes to basic puppy obedience class.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wensiliu said:


> if she could be trained with soft mouth, thats would be perfect.
> 
> thx again


Grip is primarily genetic. You can modestly enhance or suppress a dog's grip but don't think you are going to train a soft mouth to a breed that doesn't have the predisposition for it. That doesn't mean you can't find it in this breed, but if it is that important to you, perhaps as Fodder said, you might want to opt for a rescue where you can see the adult traits.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wensiliu said:


> @Chip Blasiole @NadDog24
> Thanks for point out. I understand that I need heathy temperament other than color.
> actually my point is , saying waterfowl dog, if I can choose, I'd prefer yellow Labrador other than black and chocolate.
> my goal is she will be family member. she should has solid temperament, love to learn, long work ability and smart enough to identify the hunting overnight or family camping out. if she could be trained with soft mouth, thats would be perfect. sounds like a Labrador totally. haha
> ...


Why is it you want a WGWL with traits that go against what it is breed for? You can find red and black dogs, but they they are usually blanket and not really a trait working line breeders care for. Soft mouth is completely opposite of what German shepherds are breed for and I wouldn’t trust any breeder that was trying to produce that. I don’t know any breeders who would want to produce that. Wanting a specific color is one thing, it just makes finding the dog you want harder. When you want something that goes against the breed entirely, you should look elsewhere.


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

forgive me if you think I was serious of "soft mouth"


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wensiliu said:


> forgive me if you think I was serious of "soft mouth"


🤣🤣there’s been a lot of weird puppy requests come up. If you google Black and Tan working lines there are breeders that come up. I’ve never done business with them and can’t verify quality or anything


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣there’s been a lot of weird puppy requests come up. If you google Black and Tan working lines there are breeders that come up. I’ve never done business with them and can’t verify quality or anything


Bud was working line. Black and tan. Not sure of exact lines. I was told the imports on his dams side were DDR and I am unclear what the sire line was. Just know some DDR and I think Belgian lines? 
Anyway. In the summer his coat was black and a really nice, rich tan. But in the fall and winter the tan would turn this stunning, deep orangey/red that never failed to make people stare. It was gorgeous and kind of cool to see it change.


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣there’s been a lot of weird puppy requests come up. If you google Black and Tan working lines there are breeders that come up. I’ve never done business with them and can’t verify quality or anything


instead find out breeders, I found a discussion happened here 12 yrs ago. seem time changed something? 








any chance to find black/tan working line gsd?


Hi everyone. I love blac/ red or tan gsds. It is my preference, actually I love all the colors. When I look at working lines, I hardly see any black/red or tan dogs. Is it possible to find a black/tan workingline puppy?. Thanks




www.germanshepherds.com


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

"Most working line breeders ignore color when making their breeding plans. Sable is dominate so you expect to see more sables. And with the increasing number of black dogs being popular studs more dogs are carrying the black recessive". I found online


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Bud was working line. Black and tan. Not sure of exact lines. I was told the imports on his dams side were DDR and I am unclear what the sire line was. Just know some DDR and I think Belgian lines?
> Anyway. In the summer his coat was black and a really nice, rich tan. But in the fall and winter the tan would turn this stunning, deep orangey/red that never failed to make people stare. It was gorgeous and kind of cool to see it change.


The brown on Bear can be pretty red sometimes, but he’s a sable.The red doesn’t always come out in pictures.The dog that comes to mind when I think of a black and tan/red working line is falk.


wensiliu said:


> instead find out breeders, I found a discussion happened here 12 yrs ago. seem time changed something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t think that thread has said anything different than me. The easiest way is to look at litters already available. I’ve seen crosses that also come out black and red.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wensiliu said:


> "Most working line breeders ignore color when making their breeding plans. Sable is dominate so you expect to see more sables. And with the increasing number of black dogs being popular studs more dogs are carrying the black recessive". I found online


I’d say that’s accurate.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wensiliu said:


> instead find out breeders, I found a discussion happened here 12 yrs ago. seem time changed something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing has changed.
However, you originally asked for a black and RED dog (those dogs are consistent with WGSL dogs), then shared a photo of a black and TAN dog (which _do_ exist in WL). Many of the people in the discussion you linked mention black and TAN dogs....again, which do exist in WL. Yes sable (and black and bi-color) is going to dominate WL.... like the text you found online and as you’ve likely seen on WL breeder websites. Are you aware that the second photo you shared is a sable dog?

Perhaps slow down with looking for a breeder and do more research on the breed. You still have not addressed the question of why you want a WL dog??


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Nothing has changed.
> However, you originally asked for a black and RED dog (those dogs are consistent with WGSL dogs), then shared a photo of a black and TAN dog (which _do_ exist in WL). Many of the people in the discussion you linked mention black and TAN dogs....again, which do exist in WL. Yes sable (and black and bi-color) is going to dominate WL.... like the text you found online and as you’ve likely seen on WL breeder websites. Are you aware that the second photo you shared is a sable dog?
> 
> Perhaps slow down with looking for a breeder and do more research on the breed. You still have not addressed the question of why you want a WL dog??


true, Its hard to find coat like *MI-JOS CAYENNE. * so have to step down look for that coat like *Griff von Tajgetosz , *why WL, like I said , "my goal is she will be family member. she should has solid temperament, love to learn, long work ability and smart enough to identify the hunting overnight or family camping out." 
thx


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wensiliu said:


> true, Its hard to find coat like *MI-JOS CAYENNE. * so have to step down look for that coat like *Griff von Tajgetosz , *why WL, like I said , "my goal is she will be family member. she should has solid temperament, love to learn, long work ability and smart enough to identify the hunting overnight or family camping out."
> thx


Right, and many ppl have WGSL that also fit that bill. “long work ability” what’s her job? “Identify the hunting over night” 0 idea what that even means.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wensiliu said:


> true, Its hard to find coat like *MI-JOS CAYENNE. * so have to step down look for that coat like *Griff von Tajgetosz , *why WL, like I said , "my goal is she will be family member. she should has solid temperament, love to learn, long work ability and smart enough to identify the hunting overnight or family camping out."
> thx


There is a female granddaughter available from that first male you mentioned.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

@wensiliu the color of the dog in your post #15 looks to be somewhere in the middle of the below pics.

These are 2 of our Working Line family dogs for color references:








Black & Tan














Dark Sable (some would call it black sable)

Not my dog, but this is a Bicolor


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Nothing has changed.
> However, you originally asked for a black and RED dog (those dogs are consistent with WGSL dogs), then shared a photo of a black and TAN dog (which _do_ exist in WL). Many of the people in the discussion you linked mention black and TAN dogs....again, which do exist in WL. Yes sable (and black and bi-color) is going to dominate WL.... like the text you found online and as you’ve likely seen on WL breeder websites. Are you aware that the second photo you shared is a sable dog?
> 
> Perhaps slow down with looking for a breeder and do more research on the breed. You still have not addressed the question of why you want a WL dog??


I may need a sar dog


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

@Momto2GSDs thanks for pics. looks like black and tan better close I wanted


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Bud was working line. Black and tan. Not sure of exact lines. I was told the imports on his dams side were DDR and I am unclear what the sire line was. Just know some DDR and I think Belgian lines?
> Anyway. In the summer his coat was black and a really nice, rich tan. But in the fall and winter the tan would turn this stunning, deep orangey/red that never failed to make people stare. It was gorgeous and kind of cool to see it change.


thx, interesting. nice to hear changing color


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

What you are describing when you say the ability to distinguish between overnight hunting and family camping is what is known as an “on switch” and an “off switch” just an fyi for correct terminology.

Also it looks like some of MI-JOS CAYENNE progeny were or are owned by True Haus Kennels which is about 3 hr ride from you. It looks like some of her progeny took on similar coloring as her. Since you like her color so much and she is WL it might be worth looking into that kennel. Just make certain you want the type of dog that they breed. Looks like a serious WL kennel.

Edit to add that I don’t know anything about the kennel other than what I found on line and researched.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> What you are describing when you say the ability to distinguish between overnight hunting and family camping is what is known as an “on switch” and an “off switch” just an fyi for correct terminology.
> 
> Also it looks like some of MI-JOS CAYENNE progeny were or are owned by True Haus Kennels which is about 3 hr ride from you. It looks like some of her progeny took on similar coloring as her. Since you like her color so much and she is WL it might be worth looking into that kennel. Just make certain you want the type of dog that they breed. Looks like a serious WL kennel.
> 
> Edit to add that I don’t know anything about the kennel other than what I found on line and researched.


@mycobraracr has Kimber vom True Haus. She is pretty awesome.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jynx is sort of this color. Not really a black and red. More black/tan






__





Jynx von Hugelblick


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Jynx von Hugelblick




www.pedigreedatabase.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Jynx is sort of this color. Not really a black and red. More black/tan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


love the color, is he belong to hillview-kennels?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Was bred by them. Not sure who owns him. He’s my girls grandpa. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

Heartandsoul said:


> What you are describing when you say the ability to distinguish between overnight hunting and family camping is what is known as an “on switch” and an “off switch” just an fyi for correct terminology.
> 
> Also it looks like some of MI-JOS CAYENNE progeny were or are owned by True Haus Kennels which is about 3 hr ride from you. It looks like some of her progeny took on similar coloring as her. Since you like her color so much and she is WL it might be worth looking into that kennel. Just make certain you want the type of dog that they breed. Looks like a serious WL kennel.
> 
> Edit to add that I don’t know anything about the kennel other than what I found on line and researched.


thanks for sharing, learned new terminology “on switch” and an “off switch”
yes, let me go back to check True Haus Kennels, thanks again


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## wensiliu (May 19, 2020)

not sure for some reason, some Kernels forget mentions that result of DM test on the website. should I ask them directly? don't want to rude or offend anyone. 


wensiliu said:


> thanks for sharing, learned new terminology “on switch” and an “off switch”
> yes, let me go back to check True Haus Kennels, thanks again


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wensiliu said:


> not sure for some reason, some Kernels forget mentions that result of DM test on the website. should I ask them directly? don't want to rude or offend anyone.


if they don’t mention it they probably don’t test for it. asking is not rude.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

wensiliu said:


> true, Its hard to find coat like *MI-JOS CAYENNE. * so have to step down look for that coat like *Griff von Tajgetosz , *why WL, like I said , "my goal is she will be family member. she should has solid temperament, love to learn, long work ability and smart enough to identify the hunting overnight or family camping out."
> thx


Our Joeri von Tajgetosz is a blanket Black and Tan.


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## Barz (Jan 9, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Out of many, MANY, GSD... including photos, I have only seen 1 full WL dog that I’d consider black and red. He was from a kennel (Adlerstein in SoCal) that I believe no longer breeds.


Adlerstein still has her website active (do a Google search). I think the breeder's name is Annette.
Both she and Phyllis Liedke from Rancho Rhein German Shepherds are well known and produced lots of excellent black and red GSD's going back to Enno Vom Beilstein. Phyllis' website is also still active. Good luck. *pictured below are 2 Rancho Rhein males (center and right). They were actually more red than the photograph shows.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I believe Ann trains and has a boarding faculty now. She used to post here and was very discouraged with buyers at one time. You can search and find her old posts.


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