# All things equal would you go with a Pike or Iron puppy?



## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Assume equal female for sake of the discussion.

Pike 

Iron 

I'm sure most of you know who both of these dogs are so I'll keep it short. 

I know Pike has been more proven as an actual producer (Mr. Tiekerhook took a real liking to him). Basically his entire family have been excellent producers so I think that speaks very strongly of his genetics. He has had some weak tracking scores in the past so that's a small concern. 

Iron is last years WUSV champ and the runner up the year before, which is obviously huge. Afaik since his handler has focused more on competing so he hasn't been bred _as_ much (relative to Pike). I've had a hard time looking into what kind of dog Iron tends to throw.

Personally I like Pikes conformation better overall but Iron has a nice topline and chest.

What are your thoughts?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, Eros was not the runner up for the WUSV the year before. France was not a good year. He is the 2014/2015 National champion and the 2015 WUSV champion. 

There are a lot of Iron puppies out there. I have one. I train with several from different dams. Eros is 3 years younger than Pike and his progeny are just starting to compete.

All the Iron dogs I know are balanced, level of drive varies with the dam, good grips, biddable.

Not sure where you are but maybe contact Deb directly and ask about his progeny and where they are so you can observe them. There has been one litter in Europe, a few in Canada and many here in the states.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'd go with Iron.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

I too have Iron son from Wendelin Farm in Quebec which I think is where you are seeing upcoming litters from Pike and Iron. My guy is , in my opinion , outstanding. Very well balanced in my opinion , high drive but good off switch. The most affectionate dog I have ever had. Don't know much about Pike. I did connect with Deb Zappia when getting my pup and asked her about Iron etc.. She was really helpful. I would go with Iron . I'm biased.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was able to spend two full days with Deb this past weekend. She had both Eros and one of his sons Orry with her, kenneled in the training facility for many hours when they weren't demo'ing or on a potty break. 
I was impressed with both and would definitely be leaning toward a pup from Iron....though the female bred to him would also play into my decision. 
Orry is a young pup but with her direction the past few months could control his drive state with distractions. He showed complete balance in his mind, and being in a facility that was strange, after more than a week of travel, 50 people observing, proved the genetics are very strong. Training is excellent, but there is also the genetic component that was obvious


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> First, Eros was not the runner up for the WUSV the year before. France was not a good year. He is the 2014/2015 National champion and the 2015 WUSV champion.
> 
> There are a lot of Iron puppies out there. I have one. I train with several from different dams. Eros is 3 years younger than Pike and his progeny are just starting to compete.
> 
> ...


Woops not sure why I thought that, I follow too many different sports  His progeny are just starting to compete - yeah this is what I meant, there is more info on Pike's progeny just because of the age difference. How old is your Iron pup now, mind posting any pics? From the Iron pups you have met - how are their nerves/hardness?



mattpayne said:


> I too have Iron son from Wendelin Farm in Quebec which I think is where you are seeing upcoming litters from Pike and Iron. My guy is , in my opinion , outstanding. Very well balanced in my opinion , high drive but good off switch. The most affectionate dog I have ever had. Don't know much about Pike. I did connect with Deb Zappia when getting my pup and asked her about Iron etc.. She was really helpful. I would go with Iron . I'm biased.


Hey matt, we have talked before on here. Wendelin is indeed the kennel I am looking at. How is your pups nerves in new social situations & mind posting any pics of him? 



onyx'girl said:


> I was able to spend two full days with Deb this past weekend. She had both Eros and one of his sons Orry with her, kenneled in the training facility for many hours when they weren't demo'ing or on a potty break.
> I was impressed with both and would definitely be leaning toward a pup from Iron....though the female bred to him would also play into my decision.
> Orry is a young pup but with her direction the past few months could control his drive state with distractions. He showed complete balance in his mind, and being in a facility that was strange, after more than a week of travel, 50 people observing, proved the genetics are very strong. Training is excellent, but there is also the genetic component that was obvious


So the one trait I keep coming across with Iron progeny is that they are very balanced and clear headed, I really really like this.

Thanks for all the replies so far you guys!


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> First, Eros was not the runner up for the WUSV the year before. France was not a good year. He is the 2014/2015 National champion and the 2015 WUSV champion.
> 
> There are a lot of Iron puppies out there. I have one. I train with several from different dams. Eros is 3 years younger than Pike and his progeny are just starting to compete.
> 
> ...


Woops not sure why I thought that, I follow too many different sports  His progeny are just starting to compete - yeah this is what I meant, there is more info on Pike's progeny just because of the age difference. How old is your Iron pup now, mind posting any pics? From the Iron pups you have met - how are their nerves/hardness?



mattpayne said:


> I too have Iron son from Wendelin Farm in Quebec which I think is where you are seeing upcoming litters from Pike and Iron. My guy is , in my opinion , outstanding. Very well balanced in my opinion , high drive but good off switch. The most affectionate dog I have ever had. Don't know much about Pike. I did connect with Deb Zappia when getting my pup and asked her about Iron etc.. She was really helpful. I would go with Iron . I'm biased.


Hey matt, we have talked before on here. Wendelin is indeed the kennel I am looking at. How are your pups nerves in new social situations & mind posting any pics of him? 



onyx'girl said:


> I was able to spend two full days with Deb this past weekend. She had both Eros and one of his sons Orry with her, kenneled in the training facility for many hours when they weren't demo'ing or on a potty break.
> I was impressed with both and would definitely be leaning toward a pup from Iron....though the female bred to him would also play into my decision.
> Orry is a young pup but with her direction the past few months could control his drive state with distractions. He showed complete balance in his mind, and being in a facility that was strange, after more than a week of travel, 50 people observing, proved the genetics are very strong. Training is excellent, but there is also the genetic component that was obvious


So the one trait I keep coming across with Iron progeny is that they are very balanced and clear headed, I really really like this.

Thanks for all the replies so far you guys! Hoping to hear from members who have met Pike's progeny as well!


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Otakubenny said:


> Woops not sure why I thought that, I follow too many different sports  His progeny are just starting to compete - yeah this is what I meant, there is more info on Pike's progeny just because of the age difference. How old is your Iron pup now, mind posting any pics? From the Iron pups you have met - how are their nerves/hardness?
> 
> Hey matt, we have talked before on here. Wendelin is indeed the kennel I am looking at. How are your pups nerves in new social situations & mind posting any pics of him?
> 
> ...


 Yes we have chatted before. His nerves to me seem really good in any new social situations. He adapts and settles very quickly in new surroundings etc.. If I can figure out how to post pics here I will  If I can't you can PM me an email address and i'll send some there if you like.


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

mattpayne said:


> Yes we have chatted before. His nerves to me seem really good in any new social situations. He adapts and settles very quickly in new surroundings etc.. If I can figure out how to post pics here I will  If I can't you can PM me an email address and i'll send some there if you like.


Good things to hear again☺. Hm when you're making a post there should be an attachment button that would either look like the typical paperclip or a square with some design inside to say it's an image lol. You can also upload to a site like imgur.com and post the link here. Let me know if you can work it out and if not I'll pm you my email!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Otakubenny said:


> Woops not sure why I thought that, I follow too many different sports  His progeny are just starting to compete - yeah this is what I meant, there is more info on Pike's progeny just because of the age difference. How old is your Iron pup now, mind posting any pics? From the Iron pups you have met - how are their nerves/hardness?
> 
> ...
> So the one trait I keep coming across with Iron progeny is that they are very balanced and clear headed, I really really like this.


They are all stable dogs Their hardness varies with the dam. Mine is pretty handler sensitive and that comes done thru his dam from her sire. BUT he is only that way with me. Anyone else can handle him and he's not as sensitive. He takes it personally if the correction comes from me. The others from different dams I train with are not as handler sensitive. But to be honest, this dog doesn't need corrections. He's very balanced and wants to be correct. If he's not doing something the way that needs to be it's because I haven't taught him correctly.

Very clear headed. VERY. I haven't seen any that are hectic in any way. Eros is very clear headed. Very balanced. 

Orry - the dog Jane mentioned, is a full sibling to mine from a different litter. Orry is just more! lol Can't wait to see him compete. Great off switches. Great temperaments. Jane also met my dog at Nationals a couple of years ago.

As far as new social settings, I take mine everywhere. We are always on the road. Sound nerves.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

*Iron son Pics*

Tried posting one ..Let's see if this works .


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

*Iron son - Rocky*


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

2 years old. I believe his conformation is more like Eros's dam than any other dog in his ped.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Husband has seen Iron work at multiple levels and really likes the balance, intensity and power of the dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> 2 years old. I believe his conformation is more like Eros's dam than any other dog in his ped.



He's a good looking boy.


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Both of your Iron pups look very nice! Funny Matt yours has that distinct Wendelin look that her Navar females have - that dark face and lighter eyes that just pop haha. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 CAF using Tapatalk


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Otakubenny said:


> Both of your Iron pups look very nice! Funny Matt yours has that distinct Wendelin look that her Navar females have - that dark face and lighter eyes that just pop haha.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 CAF using Tapatalk


 Yes , 

To me he has that certain " Navar" look ..I agree ! LOL Sorry for the pic quality I can send you more if you like but maybe to your email if you choose. Also I wanted to mention i did actually correspond with Deb Zappia prior to getting him and I asked her about Eros. What she told me was he had incredible control of his body , athletic , lives for the work etc.. She did say he was slower to mature .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Any input on Pike? I know nothing about him. I have had an obsession for a nephew of his, Life vom Furstenturn Kauntitz for years. Saw him at the WUSV in Philly.
Life vom Fürstentum Kaunitz
Life vom Fürstentum Kaunitz


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> 2 years old. I believe his conformation is more like Eros's dam than any other dog in his ped.


He is beautiful. I think I saw Orry when Deb was in CT and you told me about here seminar. He was a very handsome dog (if that was him). 

Glad I got to go and talk to her.


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Any input on Pike? I know nothing about him. I have had an obsession for a nephew of his, Life vom Furstenturn Kauntitz for years. Saw him at the WUSV in Philly.
> Life vom Fürstentum Kaunitz
> Life*vom Fürstentum Kaunitz


Instantly recognized him as a Nox son lol, it's crazy how that dog passes his exact structure and conformation. Personally I don't like to see inbreeding coefficients that high, but if he's healthy, he's healthy. I would want to see the coefficient of a litter he has to be lower.

Pike comes from a very successful breeding in Alexia and Irko that put out a lot of strong competitors and seemingly even better producers. Pike was one of the most widely used stud dogs in Germany between 2011-2012. Afaik he is known for his hardness and intensity/aggression . Most notably Kroos Tiekerhook has based his breeding program around him with his Pike lines, the others being his Max and Black Jack lines. He's actually still breeding to him and has another litter with him coming this month.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

From a record standpoint Pike. There are many offspring to see and many have done well.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Maybe neither....if I ever get another german shepherd I want it to be from a female that is really special ....


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

There are four Pike dogs in my club. Two from Tiekerhook and the other two from different kennels. Personally I feel like Koos likes to breed dogs with extreme drives and aggression. They're both excellent in protection but socially they're always on edge and very dominant. They're nice dogs if you want to compete in dog sport, but if you're looking for an all rounder dog thats great at home too, then they aren't your best choice.

Maybe its off topic, but I'd love to throw in another dog into the mix just for the sake of discussion 
Hank vom Weinbergblick


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Depends on the female really - I have had a litter from Iron and one from Nick (full sibling to Pike).....also would throw out the Tiekerhook from consideration - he has a certain type and what is being produced is probably from generations of his lines of females.

Hank??? not my cup of tea at all..........

Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Would you mind sharing what it is about Hank that does not appeal to you?


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> Depends on the female really - I have had a litter from Iron and one from Nick (full sibling to Pike).....also would throw out the Tiekerhook from consideration - he has a certain type and what is being produced is probably from generations of his lines of females.
> 
> Hank??? not my cup of tea at all..........
> 
> Lee


Interesting you would bring that up, because I feel that the non-Tiekerhook Pike dogs were more balanced.They're still extreme, but nothing compared to the Tiekerhook dogs.

How did your dogs from Iron and Nick turn out???


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

One of the pups from the Nick del Lupo Nero just got a 97 in tracking at the AWDF this morning....  Jagr v Wolfstraum

He did BH to IPO3 in 3 weeks with 2 high in trials.....female in Canada should be titled soon - owner handles CKC schnauzers and standard poodles professionally - so gets tied up alot....

The Iron pups were not consistent at all - very wide spread in drives - some super high drive, some absolute joys for pets....had 7 females, 2 males.....a couple working.....female was inconsistent on grips (Paska Salztalblick on dam's side, known for it) - but easiest thing to fix in a breeding!!! Does not seem to be any issue with the couple pups working...female super high drive, great barking, competing in flyball so great nerves - no missing teeth that I am aware of in litter....no problem, I had pet homes that were really pleased with pups as all had great nerves and are stable....the high drive ones are very high drive....but I am used to much more consistency in a litter - not such a wide range....and know that others have experienced the same wide range in their pups.


As far as Tiekerhook - exactly - the female lines are so strong genetically for Hassings "type" that they override the male's.....I know that my litter - which was small - was much like my previous litters from the granddam.....and Marsha Seck used Jagr for a that gave a linebreeding on my Basha - Bianka Spitzbubezwinger - through my E litter female that she owned and that came out very very much like my typical litters from that female....we are pleased with how her J's turned out!


Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Would you mind sharing what it is about Hank that does not appeal to you?




LOL NOT PUBLICALLY - I will be stoned!!!!! :laugh2::grin2:>


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> LOL NOT PUBLICALLY - I will be stoned!!!!! :laugh2::grin2:>


Let's just say that what I have heard, he is just not my cup of tea either. :grin2:

But feel free to send me a PM if you care to share.


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