# How can you differentiate between a hobby breeder and a backyard breeder?



## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Locally there is a girl I know who’s 2 registered gsds had puppies. She loves them and they are very well taken care of. This is their first litter. They are 3 dm free and pass the health tests and their pups are getting imaging before coming home. They have good temperament and drive and I’m itching to bring one home. I know puppy fever. How do I ensure I’m not supporting a backyard breeder


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Many hobby breeders do things with their dogs in one way shape or form where they are judged by an outside party or do some kind of actual work or service, along with health testing.


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## Katiebob (Aug 9, 2021)

Proper health testing on the adults I think would be the biggest thing. I understand "hobby breeder" to mean someone who only has a litter every once in a while with their dogs rather than breeding as a career. They may only have one or two dogs rather than a more established kennel. 

Happy to be corrected though.  

What health tests have the adults had?


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

As far as I am concerned there are enough great dogs, purebred and otherwise. So if a person is to breed, they should only breed dogs who are breed worthy and reach a high standard. This standard cannot be set by the owner of the dogs. We are biased towards our pets. This is why shows, health tests, and working tests exist. 

Shows tell the world that this dog has been judged by a knowledgeable third party and physically represents what a German shepherd should look like. It isn’t just a matter of two ears and a tail. They look at length of bones in limbs, angle where joints meet, head build, the way the dog moves, and coat color/texture. 

Working tests like schutzhund and the endurance run test the dog’s courage, stamina, ability to think and switch between mindsets, ability to work with a handler doing a job. These are working dogs in their heritage and no dog should be bred who does not retain this.

Health testing looks at their insides. How is the dog’s skeleton put together? Their eyesight? Their heart? Do they carry any genetic diseases? 

After all of this, you still need a breeder with knowledge. The breeder should be able to look at a dog’s pedigree and pick apart the dogs there. What were the temperaments of their relatives? What temperaments were they known to produce? Did they produce any health issues? Weak Nerves? Aggression? Then the breeder must match this pedigree with a compatible one in hopes of producing a healthy litter who matches the standard of German shepherd even better. Two great dogs don’t always make a solid litter. 

Hobby breeder or not, why breed for less than the best when there are dozens of wonderful German shepherds out there? Even if you yourself do not want to work or show a dog, this is your family pet. It is a huge responsibility to be a family pet. We ask a lot of our family dogs. They need to remain healthy, calm, put together, adventurous and discerning in a variety of families and situations and with people who do not always understand how to train them, treat them or meet their needs. 

So in my opinion, anyone who does not aspire to this level of testing is headed towards a BYB label.


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## Chuuyas_Wine_Glass (4 mo ago)

I got my girl from a breeder almost exactly like that and she's wonderful, I couldn't afford that price tag of $3,500 for a "good dog" and I need a dog with me for my mental health, which meant I wasn't going to be able to wait years for a puppy. If you are capable of affording that price tag and waiting years, I'd go with a really good breeder, the best you can simply to support them and what they do and to get an amazing dog. Probably when my girl turns 5 I'll get myself on one of those lists so I can have a puppy when she's 10 or so. 
But if that's out of someone's range of possibility, I would have no issue supporting someone like that, for me as long as the dogs were from good pedigrees (if grandparents are registered with decent health lines, I don't even care if the parents aren't), are health tested completely, and the owner cares about them and they are pets not "breeding dogs", I will get a puppy from them no problem. Not everyone can afford a dog from the best, and encouraging people towards good hobby breeders is still way better than someone going to a puppy mill because they can't get the best for whatever reason. Realistically, steering people towards a slightly lower criteria breeder is still going to help shut down puppy mills and help dogs, and a lot more people would be on board with doing that when it's less money and if they're not getting shamed by the show community for not being able to afford several thousand dollars on a dog. That's the fastest way to turn people away and get them to never buy a dog from a really good breeder IMO, so they can't afford it doesn't mean they "don't deserve to have a dog" and it doesn't mean they won't be able to afford that next time. Pet insurance exists for a reason after all, to avoid getting huge sums like that so you can't argue they can't care for a dog. My entire extended family is very poor, so an amount like that on a dog simply isn't computable. You can pay for a car, or nine electric bills with that money. And a good hobby breeder isn't going to be contributing to dogs in shelters. They still vet the owners, and are always there to take a puppy or dog back if something happens and place the dog in a new good home. My shepherd's breeder has had over fifty puppies over the many many years she's been breeding and none of them have been rehomed, and she's always there to help when someone needs her because it's just one big family of the grand doggies. That to me is a "good breeder" and then you have "best breeder". And there are a lot of people who wouldn't agree with me, and that's ok. You don't have to. You do you. That's simply my opinion on the whole dog breeding thing


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I did not say a person doesn’t deserve a dog because they can’t afford a higher price tag. Economic situation does not mean a person doesn’t deserve a great dog.

I did not say that a person had to spend several thousand dollars on a dog. Though they should saving money as much as possible in case their pup has a medical emergency costing several thousand.

I did not say that there don’t exist good breeders who only have a few litters in their life and charge a little less.

I did say that there are wonderful, high quality dogs out there in shelters and in foster care. Some from bad situations, some whose owners could not handle them, some whose owners passed away or who had major life changes.

I did say that a breeder who does not want a BYB title should aspire to hit these marks. Even a hobby breeder who only breeds occasionally.

I firmly believe that someone who picks up two random “papered GSDs”, loves them dearly, sees they get along in life, perhaps does embark testing, OFA testing and maybe even checks their heart, but has no real pedigree/genetic knowledge beyond a vague idea of what the great-grandparents titles mean, is still a backyard breeder. Especially if they have never attempted to work their dog in a sport or a real life setting to see what they are made of. These breeders are definitely a cut above the average person who doesn’t health test, but I still would not necessarily steer someone who has other options in their direction.

All of this being said, one or two litters from a person who does this won’t ruin the breed. They are absolutely a better option than a puppy mill or person who doesn’t health test (if those are you only options) and you may end up with a solid pup. It seems to be Russian roulette regardless. The additional testing just stacks the odds in your favor for getting a great dog.


I am typing this on my phone. I apologize for any grammar or spelling mistakes. It is difficult to proof read.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I do want to add that price tag doesn’t dictate quality. There are some high priced dogs out there (we’re talking about GSDs but don’t get me started on the French bulldog world) who aren’t from ethical breeders.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Didn't you just return a puppy? I think you should not be looking right now. A backyard breeder breeds their dogs (they often have both parents) to make money. That's it for the most part. They have no idea really what the genetic line of their dog brings to the table and whether or not their two dogs should even be bred to each other. A hobby breeder is normally one that works their dogs in some venue and has a plan for their dogs and their very small breeding program. Often it is to provide themselves with their next generation dog to work in their preferred outlet and the dog they breed to has been carefully selected to complement their own dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> I firmly believe that someone who picks up two random “papered GSDs”, loves them dearly, sees they get along in life, perhaps does embark testing, OFA testing and maybe even checks their heart, but has no real pedigree/genetic knowledge beyond a vague idea of what the great-grandparents titles mean, is still a backyard breeder. Especially if they have never attempted to work their dog in a sport or a real life setting to see what they are made of. These breeders are definitely a cut above the average person who doesn’t health test, but I still would not necessarily steer someone who has other options in their direction.
> 
> All of this being said, one or two litters from a person who does this won’t ruin the breed. They are absolutely a better option than a puppy mill or person who doesn’t health test (if those are you only options) and you may end up with a solid pup. It seems to be Russian roulette regardless. The additional testing just stacks the odds in your favor for getting a great dog.


The pups from such a breeder with these specific dogs might be stellar pets and companions. The ruination of the breed begins to happen when the puppies from this pairing are bred by the subsequent owners,and those resulting pups are bred,and so on.


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## Sofi27 (Jun 4, 2016)

Galathiel said:


> Didn't you just return a puppy? I think you should not be looking right now. A backyard breeder breeds their dogs (they often have both parents) to make money. That's it for the most part. They have no idea really what the genetic line of their dog brings to the table and whether or not their two dogs should even be bred to each other. A hobby breeder is normally one that works their dogs in some venue and has a plan for their dogs and their very small breeding program. Often it is to provide themselves with their next generation dog to work in their preferred outlet and the dog they breed to has been carefully selected to complement their own dog.


I agree. That puppy was just returned because your current dog was showing some negative behaviours towards it. I think focus on your current dog. One is a lot of work in itself and especially if you have training goals. Sorry to be blunt, but I wouldn’t put another puppy in the same situation. Not fair to it or your current dog.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

If all their dogs are not health tested and titled to at least and IGP 1 they are a backyard breeder.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

girardid said:


> If all their dogs are not health tested and titled to at least and IGP 1 they are a backyard breeder.


Yes, no. Not all GSD people are schutzhund folk, especially if there are no good clubs nearby. But I agree that the dogs should work if not protection sports than trailing or herding. Something that tests endurance and will to work and ability to think.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

car2ner said:


> Yes, no. Not all GSD people are schutzhund folk, especially if there are no good clubs nearby. But I agree that the dogs should work if not protection sports than trailing or herding. Something that tests endurance and will to work and ability to think.


For sure there are similar and equivalent tests.
But i would say in general there are very few exceptions to the rule. And if you are new and looking into getting your first dog it's an easy way to weed out bybs.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Just a general thing - I went to visit the puppy I returned and he has been adopted out to a family with kids that love him and I spoke to my trainer about kiras behavior and he said she was just trying to set boundaries and wasn’t being too harsh about it I was just scared. Another aspect to returning Balou was he seemed very sick all of a sudden and was throwing up profusely and had problems breathing. I didn’t discuss it on the forum simply because I didn’t want anyone to get the wrong idea about rescues and I was going to handle the medical bills ourselves but that on top of everything and us being unaware of what normal behavior looked like as Kira and our other dogs have always been overly social. I also made the faux pas of letting Kira have her nightly yak chew and when Balou went to smell it she flipped . He had imaging done after to rule out seizures because he couldn’t breathe and it ended up being a reaction to the antibiotics he was given so my husband tried to bring him back home and sponsor he treatment but he was adopted as soon as his scans came back clear. we realized it wasn’t actually serious but they had to work out each other so we tried to bring him home. When bringing a puppy home in the future god knows when they will be introduced and monitored with the help of a trainer who knows Kira. Also with this new info I am likely not going to purchase from this lady and will look more towards and actual kennel breeder. My trainer has 2 kennels he’s vetted and one he got his own pup from so we are making good headway. Also I’m only actually looking because I’m placing deposits for mid late 2023 but waitlists are often involved and I’m likely buying out of state and flying in so a lot more going into it than revealed on the forum. I truly appreciate everyone and their efforts to make it so the breed is well maintained and I will do my best to uphold that


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Someone here said recently the biggest problem in the breed is the prevalence of Fero in bloodlines. I wholeheartedly disagree. The biggest issue in the breed is backyard breeders. While this breeder is a cut above others out there, it does not sound like they rise to the level of a quality breeder. A hobby breeder so simply one who’s breeding isn’t a main source of income for them. Two simple questions. What are they breeding for? How are the dogs they are breeding proven? When someone tells you they are breeding for pets, remember “pet quality” is the term used for the lowest quality of dogs and puppies because that is all they are capable of doing.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

HandlingAkira said:


> They have good temperament and drive


What is good temperament and drive? How do you know these dogs have good temperament and drive?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

girardid said:


> If all their dogs are not health tested and titled to at least and IGP 1 they are a backyard breeder.


I’m byb . Kimber never had an IPO1. She had 9 titles on her across three sports and was competing in the 3’s at 2 1/2, but not IPO title or AD. Almost every puppy she’s produced is titled in some sport or another, or certified in some real world work to include two dogs with the DEA.

I will be breeding Estelle (pending health tests) and I may never title her. I don’t care for sport these days. I would bet money that most the titled GSD’s out there would fail the first test I put them through. I say that because I see it weekly. In my humble opinion, sport has lost a lot of value on telling the breed worthiness of a dog. It DOES show the person works the dogs so they should have an in depth knowledge of their dogs.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> What is good temperament and drive? How do you know these dogs have good temperament and drive?


I was honestly going off of what the lady told me. before purchasing I was planning on meeting her and looking more into everything but it seems to be a no go off of what everyone is telling me


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m mixed on mandatory titling for breeding stock. I would much rather work with a breeder who understands health, lines and genetics than someone who throws titles on their dogs just to breed them. Nearly any dog who is trainable can get a title if they have the right handlers. A good breeder not only knows their dogs, they understand enough about genetic combinations to have some idea what they are producing.

My first purebred was from a breeder who thought she hadn’t all covered because her career was in veterinary health but she didn’t fully understand genetics. My dog was incredible and lived to be almost 14, but her second litter with the same dam accidentally pulled in a line that had elbow dysplasia. So half the dogs in the next litter had elbows that required surgery. She ended up getting out of the GSD business a few years later. She’s still in the dog world. Every so often I see her name in dog shows with a different breed.

You pay one way or another. If you don’t pay much for the puppy you could end up with enormous bills further down the road for health and training issues. Rescues come with their own baggage. We need to be realistic. Owning a quality GSD isn’t a cheap endeavor. I prefer a medium to large breeder because they are producing enough dogs to know what they are getting vs someone who has one litter and doesn’t have enough experience with the pairing to know if it’s going to work.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

mycobraracr said:


> I’m byb . Kimber never had an IPO1. She had 9 titles on her across three sports and was competing in the 3’s at 2 1/2, but not IPO title or AD. Almost every puppy she’s produced is titled in some sport or another, or certified in some real world work to include two dogs with the DEA.
> 
> I will be breeding Estelle (pending health tests) and I may never title her. I don’t care for sport these days. I would bet money that most the titled GSD’s out there would fail the first test I put them through. I say that because I see it weekly. In my humble opinion, sport has lost a lot of value on telling the breed worthiness of a dog. It DOES show the person works the dogs so they should have an in depth knowledge of their dogs.


I think you have to be very careful with this mentality. It’s the road that leads to deteriorating programs over time. Sports aren’t a man answer to breed worthyness. As it turns out, nothing is. There’s no single venue where you can say this dog is titled in this or certified in that and should be breeding. The thing with those titles and certifications is they give you a baseline. It takes effort to achieve. Whether they tell you the truth about the dogs is one thing, but anyone who takes a raw dog and titles them in a sport or certifies them for work knows a lot about that dog. Sure all titles aren’t created equally, it the truth about that dog will be known somewhere. Without that baseline, what’s the difference between your breeding and the person mentioned in the OP? You’ve declared Estelle temperament breed worthy at just over a year old? You have said you haven’t done any serious training with her. What is it that has proven her temperament bread worthy? What is a breed worthy temperament? I don’t say this as an attack on you. It’s just an objective look.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’m mixed on mandatory titling for breeding stock. I would much rather work with a breeder who understands health, lines and genetics than someone who throws titles on their dogs just to breed them. Nearly any dog who is trainable can get a title if they have the right handlers. A good breeder not only knows their dogs, they understand enough about genetic combinations to have some idea what they are producing.


This is a good point. I remember @mycobraracr describing on another thread about how dogs that seem impressive in sports often fall apart environmentally.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I was going to ask something similar to @Bearshandler to @mycobraracr . I have no stake in either working or sport, this is all discussions purpose but my question echos if you don’t use titles as some type of baseline, and you use only health testing you could have a healthy nervous, unstable dog with no workability, while no doubt @mycobraracr knows what he’s doing what he’s looking for and what’s what, but how does say someone like me who’s not all that knowledgeable in this field base his decision on breeders? Every breeder in the world will tell you their dogs are wonderful things. Ive visited dogs that seemed wonderful in my short interaction but didn’t produce what I saw. Again all discussion purpose from me just looking for info!


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Carter Smith said:


> I was going to ask something similar to @Bearshandler to @mycobraracr . I have no stake in either working or sport, this is all discussions purpose but my question echos if you don’t use titles as some type of baseline, and you use only health testing you could have a healthy nervous, unstable dog with no workability, while no doubt @mycobraracr knows what he’s doing what he’s looking for and what’s what, but how does say someone like me who’s not all that knowledgeable in this field base his decision on breeders? Every breeder in the world will tell you their dogs are wonderful things. Ive visited dogs that seemed wonderful in my short interaction but didn’t produce what I saw. Again all discussion purpose from me just looking for info!


This is my struggle, what is the accountability and reliability for a buyer and how do you know what you see is actually what you get. I really don’t want a nervous wreck with psychological problems. That’s the whole reason I’m opting for a breeder after adopting over and over again.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> This is my struggle, what is the accountability and reliability for a buyer and how do you know what you see is actually what you get. I really don’t want a nervous wreck with psychological problems. That’s the whole reason I’m opting for a breeder after adopting over and over again.


If you have a good, trusted trainer who understands the breed and your abilities and needs, pay the trainer to help you find a dog if you feel you can’t do it yourself.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My 2 cents, if you just put two dogs together without testing health, workability (not necessarily titles) and without a certain vision besides producing pets, you can call these practices anything besides good breeding.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> If you have a good, trusted trainer who understands the breed and your abilities and needs, pay the trainer to help you find a dog if you feel you can’t do it yourself.


My trainer recommended Kreative Kennels in nocal and that’s where he got his girl but the price I know has its reasons it just seems a lot higher than most. I’m talking 4-5,000 for a puppy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> You pay one way or another. If you don’t pay much for the puppy you could end up with enormous bills further down the road for health and training issues.


This! Yes!

If anyone would like to trade purchase price for vet bills I'm in!

First of all, novice owner stacking puppies is a bad idea. Let Akira grow up and get trained before adding more pets. Second, very very few good breeders will own both parents of a litter. The object of breeding is to produce the best possible offspring. Highly unlikely that your two dogs are the best genetic match.
Further keep in mind that most of the people I know would describe my dog as having a great temperament. She does not. She is well managed. Most would say she has good drive. She does not she has hectic drives that are constantly at war with each other and her less then stable temperament. Breeding stock should always be evaluated by an outside party. 
There are plenty of ways to assess a dogs character and work ability outside of bite sports.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

@Bearshandler @Carter Smith
I'm going to respond to everyone in this comment.

@Bearshandler , in no way shape or form did I take your comment as an attack. In part, I said what I said to play devils advocate and spark conversation. I don't think titles are bad. I do think people put way too much stock in them. The problem with sport is that people breed what they think will get them on the podium. They don't breed to the GSD standard. Like with anything competition, it is subject to our human ego's. So we see this reflected in the pedigree's.

"That word “Sport” always means competition for the highest…, but this competition reaches its high-water mark in the show ring, which, just because they demand no real capabilities, …lead people only too easily astray to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty, instead of on the substance which really matters" - Captain Max Stephanitz

I recently had a FB memory pop up of a meme I shared about 8 years ago. It said "If Max Stephanitz showed up today, would you be more excited to show him your score book , or your dog?" I know it's just a meme, but there is a lot of depth in that.

I agree, that we can't breed just based on health either. Again there is a lot that goes into a GSD that conforms to the breed standard. They're supposed to be a jack of all trades. Just being healthy doesn't cut it.

So you asked what about Estelle makes me think she's breed worthy especially since I've hardly done any serious training. First, what some consider serious training may be different than what others consider. So for example, With Terra, Kimber and Areli, I was at club 3-5 times a week. Now keep in mind I'm also a decoy/helper, so a lot of my time is doing that. Besides being at club, I trained at home and with my ex-wife (She's also titled multiple dogs and trialed at high levels), daily. Estelle, has spent zero days at a club. I'm not part of a club anymore, I don't run a club anymore, and I haven't had the time to get to a club. What Estelle has done, is been in just about every environmental environment you can imagine. She travels with me to San Francisco weekly and helps me with pet clients. Estelle has been on 10 day moto trips with me and not only got along well with all the humans, but got along with all the other dogs. Estelle lives in my house, has been with kids and elderly people. She's been to restaurants and stores. Estelle doesn't have an AD, but does 15+ mountain bike rides at my pace, not a pre-determined pace. Estelle has seen more decoys of various sports and skill levels that the majority of sport dogs. Estelle has done real searches. So yes at 16mo she's already been in more environments that most. So I have an excellent idea of who she is. I'm just waiting until she's two to do health testing, because no matter what she's not leaving my house. If something is bad she just won't be bred. I'll attach a video overload of Estelle.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is really a way for a new person to know who is who. Pages like this are a great resource. I know breeders who if they said they had a dog for me, I'd take it. Titled stock or not, because I trust what they produce. Likewise there are titled health checked sport breeders that you couldn't pay me to take a dog from. That's just the sad truth of where the breed is.

As for price. I don't believe you should have to sell a kidney to buy a puppy. I think a lot of these prices have gotten out of hand. So do your research, find a breeder, establish a relationship with them and see what you can work out. When I bought Recon, I asked if I could make payments because I didn't have the money. The breeder let me do that. This was my first time dealing with them. I had to make payments on two different dogs. Breeders allowed me to do that. I as a breeder allowed some people to make payments. It's always a case by case basis, but I think some are willing to work with the right home.

In one scenario is was a search in one room with a sub floor passage to the room the decoy was in. Another scenario, I had zero idea what the scenario was, we just did it. These are all raw video of her at various ages.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I think you have to be very careful with this mentality. It’s the road that leads to deteriorating programs over time. Sports aren’t a man answer to breed worthyness. As it turns out, nothing is. There’s no single venue where you can say this dog is titled in this or certified in that and should be breeding. The thing with those titles and certifications is they give you a baseline. It takes effort to achieve. Whether they tell you the truth about the dogs is one thing, but anyone who takes a raw dog and titles them in a sport or certifies them for work knows a lot about that dog. Sure all titles aren’t created equally, it the truth about that dog will be known somewhere. Without that baseline, what’s the difference between your breeding and the person mentioned in the OP? You’ve declared Estelle temperament breed worthy at just over a year old? You have said you haven’t done any serious training with her. What is it that has proven her temperament bread worthy? What is a breed worthy temperament? I don’t say this as an attack on you. It’s just an objective look.


You do serious training and you do it correctly.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> My trainer recommended Kreative Kennels in nocal and that’s where he got his girl but the price I know has its reasons it just seems a lot higher than most. I’m talking 4-5,000 for a puppy.


There must be other breeders who are good and less pricey. I would not pay that much for a pet dog.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> There must be other breeders who are good and less pricey. I would not pay that much for a pet dog.


Thats really what I’m thinking, I’ll eventually figure it out.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> There must be other breeders who are good and less pricey. I would not pay that much for a pet dog.


it is also good old supply and demand. If a breeder has a large litter with some unreserved, it may lower the price a bit. A small litter high in demand may raise the price.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> @Bearshandler @Carter Smith
> I'm going to respond to everyone in this comment.
> 
> @Bearshandler , in no way shape or form did I take your comment as an attack. In part, I said what I said to play devils advocate and spark conversation. I don't think titles are bad. I do think people put way too much stock in them. The problem with sport is that people breed what they think will get them on the podium. They don't breed to the GSD standard. Like with anything competition, it is subject to our human ego's. So we see this reflected in the pedigree's.
> ...


I appreciate your view on this, in my little experience I believe their is more to dogs than paper.. how you know and trust for sure what your getting is no small task though. I have had few dealings with people on the real side of this, that work dogs for a living, one rescued a dog from a bad situation… byb GSD.. it’s sniffing out endangered turtles now, one does bed bug detection, said he doesn’t give a **** about pedigree only the dog in front of him... but, as pets or sport dogs we want assurances and that could lead to the pedigree and title side of it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

car2ner said:


> it is also good old supply and demand. If a breeder has a large litter with some unreserved, it may lower the price a bit. A small litter high in demand may raise the price.


Yes, also there was so much demand in 2020, breeders couldn’t keep up. Things have settled down now that people are out of the house more and busier.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Carter Smith said:


> I appreciate your view on this, in my little experience I believe their is more to dogs than paper.. how you know and trust for sure what your getting is no small task though. I have had few dealings with people on the real side of this, that work dogs for a living, one rescued a dog from a bad situation… byb GSD.. it’s sniffing out endangered turtles now, one does bed bug detection, said he doesn’t give a **** about pedigree only the dog in front of him... but, as pets or sport dogs we want assurances and that could lead to the pedigree and title side of it.


It really is tricky. I know I come off on here like I hate sports, and I really don’t. I just try and share a different view point on here. I think sports are great for a lot of things. I don’t believe they are the end all be all. On the personal side of it, I’m just bitter with them haha. I was in a judges program for one sport, then told I could no longer be a judge since I also played in a different sport. I did helper/decoy work for a trial, where a judge wrote in a score book that a dog was injured when I ran it, that way the dog didn’t have bad mark in its book. I’ve worked a trial where the judge wanted to vary what did with every other dog when I was working a dog his friend trained (I didn’t and that dog passed anyway). All these things over the years have just given me a bitter taste. Then add in when I travel to different clubs people talk like their dogs are the baddest things on the planet when they’ll fail simple environment tests. I’ve been to events where training directors told their members they could only work on their helper/decoy because they were afraid of a weakness showing in the dog. That dog eventually got titled. So what does the title itself tell us? In my opinion nothing. Yes those experiences can watch a dog and learn a lot about it. For someone not knowing anything and trying to do their research, it’s a crap shoot. Best bet is to go to clubs, see dogs and so on. It’s hard, it really is. I have breeders I’d buy dogs from no questions asked. Dogs titled or not. I trust them and trust they wouldn’t send me a dog the didn’t think would work for me. There are others who claim to have the unicorn magical dogs (like I am with Kimber and Estelle🤣) that I wouldn’t take a dog from if you paid me. The best a new person can do is be patient, ask real questions, and hope the breeder is being honest. If the breeder doesn’t say anything negative about their dogs then chances are they’re being a salesman. No dog is perfect. There is always something to be improved on or a negative.

PS, I don’t know what part of Canada you’re in, but I’m supposed to be teaching a seminar up there in May.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

@mycobraracr I didn’t expect you to take it wrong. It was more for the on lookers. It’s funny because I almost could have written your response for you. Those questions to some extent should be asked and answered regardless of titles or not. 


mycobraracr said:


> I do think people put way too much stock in them. The problem with sport is that people breed what they think will get them on the podium. They don't breed to the GSD standard. Like with anything competition, it is subject to our human ego's. So we see this reflected in the pedigree's.


I agree with all of this. The thing with this forum is I too often see it swing way too far the other way, not just to downplaying sports, but the dogs in them entirely. Someone on another part of the web said that modern sport dogs weren’t producing what he was looking for. When I looked at his program, I found names like Chris spod Lazov(World champion), Gero(world champion) and some national competitors. 


mycobraracr said:


> So you asked what about Estelle makes me think she's breed worthy especially since I've hardly done any serious training. First, what some consider serious training may be different than what others consider. So for example, With Terra, Kimber and Areli, I was at club 3-5 times a week. Now keep in mind I'm also a decoy/helper, so a lot of my time is doing that. Besides being at club, I trained at home and with my ex-wife (She's also titled multiple dogs and trialed at high levels), daily. Estelle, has spent zero days at a club. I'm not part of a club anymore, I don't run a club anymore, and I haven't had the time to get to a club. What Estelle has done, is been in just about every environmental environment you can imagine. She travels with me to San Francisco weekly and helps me with pet clients. Estelle has been on 10 day moto trips with me and not only got along well with all the humans, but got along with all the other dogs. Estelle lives in my house, has been with kids and elderly people. She's been to restaurants and stores. Estelle doesn't have an AD, but does 15+ mountain bike rides at my pace, not a pre-determined pace. Estelle has seen more decoys of various sports and skill levels that the majority of sport dogs. Estelle has done real searches. So yes at 16mo she's already been in more environments that most. So I have an excellent idea of who she is. I'm just waiting until she's two to do health testing, because no matter what she's not leaving my house. If something is bad she just won't be bred. I'll attach a video overload of Estelle.


This is the type of answer I want to see to these types of questions. There are things that get answered in real life like sociability. There are things that get answered through training and work like the drives and hardness. There are questions that can be answered through both like environmentals. Environmentals are tricky because they aren’t necessarily tested by sports and can be covered up a lot of times when they are.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> It really is tricky. I know I come off on here like I hate sports, and I really don’t. I just try and share a different view point on here. I think sports are great for a lot of things. I don’t believe they are the end all be all. On the personal side of it, I’m just bitter with them haha. I was in a judges program for one sport, then told I could no longer be a judge since I also played in a different sport. I did helper/decoy work for a trial, where a judge wrote in a score book that a dog was injured when I ran it, that way the dog didn’t have bad mark in its book. I’ve worked a trial where the judge wanted to vary what did with every other dog when I was working a dog his friend trained (I didn’t and that dog passed anyway). All these things over the years have just given me a bitter taste. Then add in when I travel to different clubs people talk like their dogs are the baddest things on the planet when they’ll fail simple environment tests. I’ve been to events where training directors told their members they could only work on their helper/decoy because they were afraid of a weakness showing in the dog. That dog eventually got titled. So what does the title itself tell us? In my opinion nothing. Yes those experiences can watch a dog and learn a lot about it. For someone not knowing anything and trying to do their research, it’s a crap shoot. Best bet is to go to clubs, see dogs and so on. It’s hard, it really is. I have breeders I’d buy dogs from no questions asked. Dogs titled or not. I trust them and trust they wouldn’t send me a dog the didn’t think would work for me. There are others who claim to have the unicorn magical dogs (like I am with Kimber and Estelle🤣) that I wouldn’t take a dog from if you paid me. The best a new person can do is be patient, ask real questions, and hope the breeder is being honest. If the breeder doesn’t say anything negative about their dogs then chances are they’re being a salesman. No dog is perfect. There is always something to be improved on or a negative.
> 
> PS, I don’t know what part of Canada you’re in, but I’m supposed to be teaching a seminar up there in May.


I’ve read a few posts around here about the judging of sports and so on, I don’t know enough about it to form an opinion but I know the amount of work sport people put in to there dogs so me personally I can’t knock it. It’s funny I spoke to my breeder the other day just about different training and she said “no dog is perfect”. I do appreciate a balanced approach to breeding which is what led me to them.
I’m in Ontario, where is your seminar ? Please say Ontario!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Carter Smith said:


> I appreciate your view on this, in my little experience I believe their is more to dogs than paper.. how you know and trust for sure what your getting is no small task though. I have had few dealings with people on the real side of this, that work dogs for a living, one rescued a dog from a bad situation… byb GSD.. it’s sniffing out endangered turtles now, one does bed bug detection, said he doesn’t give a **** about pedigree only the dog in front of him... but, as pets or sport dogs we want assurances and that could lead to the pedigree and title side of it.


There’s more to it. A simple question, what happens if a working situation gets a dog that can’t perform? It gets replaced. They are also dealing with dogs they can see and test, which is different than puppy buying. 
End users also aren’t concerned about continuing a breed.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Bearshandler said:


> There’s more to it. A simple question, what happens if a working situation gets a dog that can’t perform? It gets replaced. They are also dealing with dogs they can see and test, which is different than puppy buying.
> End users also aren’t concerned about continuing a breed.


Ya exactly, that’s why I said pet or sport people won’t typically just replace a dog that doesn’t work out, so theirs more thought into the history of the dog that can be “measured”.


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## johneggers446 (4 mo ago)

It isn't very difficult to recognize the differences in modern times, and as a professional breeder myself, I can offer you some advice: If feasible, visit the breeding facility. This would solve half of your problem because a professional breeder has the perfect setup for this reason alone. To start, look for evaluations from previous customers and, if they have an internet presence, look for testimonials. Professional breeders must constantly have a variety of various breeds available to them since they are asked to demonstrate the different types of breeds they own.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Carter Smith said:


> I appreciate your view on this, in my little experience I believe their is more to dogs than paper.. how you know and trust for sure what your getting is no small task though. I have had few dealings with people on the real side of this, that work dogs for a living, one rescued a dog from a bad situation… byb GSD.. it’s sniffing out endangered turtles now, one does bed bug detection, said he doesn’t give a **** about pedigree only the dog in front of him... but, as pets or sport dogs we want assurances and that could lead to the pedigree and title side of it.


YES!! Having had a number of rescue in addition pedigreed dogs, I totally agree with this. My non-pedigree BYB dog was environmentally sound, good with kids, adults and other dogs. He was also the smartest darn dog I've ever trained, and also was the perfect hearing ear dog for me. My previous dog was all about the nose - when you took her into a motel room EVERYTHING had to be sniffed before she'd settle. With Ranger, it was a few sniffs here and there, then he'd find a spot to lie down, but he was constantly listening to the sounds coming from outside. 

The one with the non-stop sniffer would have excelled as a tracking dog, but because she had no pedigree, and at that time, CKC didn't allow non-pedigreed dogs in their trials, I wasn't able to compete with her, though she did very well in the two tracking courses we did together.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Sunsilver said:


> YES!! Having had a number of rescue in addition pedigreed dogs, I totally agree with this. My non-pedigree BYB dog was environmentally sound, good with kids, adults and other dogs. He was also the smartest darn dog I've ever trained, and also was the perfect hearing ear dog for me. My previous dog was all about the nose - when you took her into a motel room EVERYTHING had to be sniffed before she'd settle. With Ranger, it was a few sniffs here and there, then he'd find a spot to lie down, but he was constantly listening to the sounds coming from outside.
> 
> The one with the non-stop sniffer would have excelled as a tracking dog, but because she had no pedigree, and at that time, CKC didn't allow non-pedigreed dogs in their trials, I wasn't able to compete with her, though she did very well in the two tracking courses we did together.


Yep I don’t think we’ll fully ever understand how all those inherent genetics shake out into dogs


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

johneggers446 said:


> Professional breeders must constantly have a variety of various breeds available to them since they are asked to demonstrate the different types of breeds they own.


Can you please explain this?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> PS, I don’t know what part of Canada you’re in, but I’m supposed to be teaching a seminar up there in May.


WHERE!?


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> I’m byb .


Maybe lol what's your kennel name?
I'm teasing but as i mentioned there are a few exceptions here and there and of course IGP is not the only sport that can be used to evaluate breed worthiness. The title is not a stamp that means you're good to go and breed a dog. I tell new folks the IGP is like a yardstick and having the IGP 1 just means the dog was measured. Being able to watch video of all three phases tells you a ton more about the dog. And the best breeders of course have standards they use along side Schutzhund.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> I think you have to be very careful with this mentality. It’s the road that leads to deteriorating programs over time. Sports aren’t a man answer to breed worthyness. As it turns out, nothing is. There’s no single venue where you can say this dog is titled in this or certified in that and should be breeding. The thing with those titles and certifications is they give you a baseline. It takes effort to achieve. Whether they tell you the truth about the dogs is one thing, but anyone who takes a raw dog and titles them in a sport or certifies them for work knows a lot about that dog. Sure all titles aren’t created equally, it the truth about that dog will be known somewhere. Without that baseline, what’s the difference between your breeding and the person mentioned in the OP? You’ve declared Estelle temperament breed worthy at just over a year old? You have said you haven’t done any serious training with her. What is it that has proven her temperament bread worthy? What is a breed worthy temperament? I don’t say this as an attack on you. It’s just an objective look.


Exactly and ok completely agree. No venue is an end all be all but in my opinion the GSD Korung is the best all around examination and being able to see how the dog tracks, it's drive in obedience, it's power and control grips and nerves in protection as well as how it handles itself in the show ring and during the traffic temperament test will tell you way more about a dog than listening and trusting the owners at the very least slightly biased description of the dog. 

sure can a person start to see these things on their own? Yes but the newbie looking for a dog can't tell the difference between the poster above and the byb with "vet checked" dogs that are "awesome pets" have a bunch of dock diving letters after their name and some pictures barking in a harness.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

girardid said:


> Exactly and ok completely agree. No venue is an end all be all but in my opinion the GSD Korung is the best all around examination and being able to see how the dog tracks, it's drive in obedience, it's power and control grips and nerves in protection as well as how it handles itself in the show ring and during the traffic temperament test will tell you way more about a dog than listening and trusting the owners at the very least slightly biased description of the dog.
> 
> sure can a person start to see these things on their own? Yes but the newbie looking for a dog can't tell the difference between the poster above and the byb with "vet checked" dogs that are "awesome pets" have a bunch of dock diving letters after their name and some pictures barking in a harness.


The biggest problem generally is that training methods have surpassed the test. Things that are supposed to be genetic traits can be trained and things that are supposed to reveal character can be trained through alternative methods. Everything you named can be greatly affected by training for the test. My personal view is the tests that lead up to the bread survey, the BH, the IGP1 title, the show rating, that stuff is just the baseline. Every German shepherd should be capable of doing and if yours aren’t then you shouldn’t even be talking about breeding them. I do agree that it starts to seperate the cream from the tar at the bottom.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

I guess this now goes into the question of - finding the balance with breeders who are ethical. Breeding for looks (size,colors,coats) temperament (drive,workability) and adaptability (nerve,confidence etc.) all these things that are genetic rather than trained behaviors for trials alone. I mean who the dog actually is from day 1.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Can you please explain this?


Exactly. A red flag for me; breed whatever sells.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

HandlingAkira said:


> I guess this now goes into the question of - finding the balance with breeders who are ethical. Breeding for looks (size,colors,coats) temperament (drive,workability) and adaptability (nerve,confidence etc.) all these things that are genetic rather than trained behaviors for trials alone. I mean who the dog actually is from day 1.


This is the question. This is the type of breeder to hunt for. You have to get to know the breeder. Titles, health, checks, show ratings mean nothing without the right person pairing the dogs. The person with morals/ethics and is breeding to the standard. Not to sports, shows or for a specific client base.

At this stage with the GSD I no longer say breed to better the breed. This breeds been around a long time. Anyone who’s seen a good GSD knows how amazing they are. At this stage I say we need to breed to preserve the breed. I don’t want to see it lost (more lost) because people are breeding to specific markets and not to the true character of the GSD.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

LuvShepherds said:


> There must be other breeders who are good and less pricey. I would not pay that much for a pet dog.


The breeders that I contacted for working line GSD puppies were between $1800-2500 USD.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

tintallie said:


> The breeders that I contacted for working line GSD puppies were between $1800-2500 USD.


Where are you located?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

tintallie said:


> The breeders that I contacted for working line GSD puppies were between $1800-2500 USD.


That maybe the going rate now in your area or nearby.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

HandlingAkira said:


> Where are you located?


I am located in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, but the breeders for Miya (RIP) and Nina are located in the US (Midwest) and another breeder I was considering is located in Washington state outside Seattle.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

mycobraracr said:


> This is the question. This is the type of breeder to hunt for. You have to get to know the breeder. Titles, health, checks, show ratings mean nothing without the right person pairing the dogs. The person with morals/ethics and is breeding to the standard. Not to sports, shows or for a specific client base.
> 
> At this stage with the GSD I no longer say breed to better the breed. This breeds been around a long time. Anyone who’s seen a good GSD knows how amazing they are. At this stage I say we need to breed to preserve the breed. I don’t want to see it lost (more lost) because people are breeding to specific markets and not to the true character of the GSD.


It’s already lost 😞


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Maybe I didn't look hard enough but it's hard to find breeders that are selling pups for below $3k~ in California. I'm situated in the Sacramento region. Cost of living here is so high, I would be surprised if I found a pup for less than $2k. Kreative kennel was probably the most expensive I found that had a good reputation for the most part. I think if you joined a club, you might find better leads. Like a lot of industries, making connections can probably help.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Hopps said:


> Maybe I didn't look hard enough but it's hard to find breeders that are selling pups for below $3k~ in California. I'm situated in the Sacramento region. Cost of living here is so high, I would be surprised if I found a pup for less than $2k. Kreative kennel was probably the most expensive I found that had a good reputation for the most part. I think if you joined a club, you might find better leads. Like a lot of industries, making connections can probably help.


I was able to find a smaller kennel that does working line in L.A. hips and elbows check out but the prices are too good to be true. Probably going to end up joining a club and figuring it out from there Working Line German Shepherds (@vigorous_k9s) • Instagram photos and videos


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

HandlingAkira said:


> I was able to find a smaller kennel that does working line in L.A. hips and elbows check out but the prices are too good to be true. Probably going to end up joining a club and figuring it out from there Working Line German Shepherds (@vigorous_k9s) • Instagram photos and videos


When I see people do health tests, I don’t see it as a plus. I see it as doing the minimum. I’ve seen bybs do health tests as well. Just by looking at their Instagram and all that I wouldn’t buy from them. I just don’t think there is an excuse for having 0 titles. There are exceptions like you can see the dog being worked otherwise. I’ve been taking a Venn diagram approach. I look at different sources and opinions, from customers and other breeders. Then I look at what overlaps and see if it’s worth anything checking out. 🤷‍♀️


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> The biggest problem generally is that training methods have surpassed the test. Things that are supposed to be genetic traits can be trained and things that are supposed to reveal character can be trained through alternative methods. Everything you named can be greatly affected by training for the test. My personal view is the tests that lead up to the bread survey, the BH, the IGP1 title, the show rating, that stuff is just the baseline. Every German shepherd should be capable of doing and if yours aren’t then you shouldn’t even be talking about breeding them. I do agree that it starts to seperate the cream from the tar at the bottom.


I think training methods have surpassed the test in the sense that passing is much easier with good training. But from my experience there is still a lot that you can see when you use a trial as a measurement tool for evaluation. That no matter how hard you train won't happen if it isn't present genetically. Of course IGP 1 is not the end all be all. But in general i consider it a good bare minimum.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

girardid said:


> I think training methods have surpassed the test in the sense that passing is much easier with good training. But from my experience there is still a lot that you can see when you use a trial as a measurement tool for evaluation. That no matter how hard you train won't happen if it isn't present genetically. Of course IGP 1 is not the end all be all. But in general i consider it a good bare minimum.


I agree that it is a good minimum, a baseline.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

HandlingAkira said:


> My trainer recommended Kreative Kennels in nocal and that’s where he got his girl but the price I know has its reasons it just seems a lot higher than most. I’m talking 4-5,000 for a puppy.


I like Kreative Kennels but you can get a pup with the same genetics for a lot less!


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

HandlingAkira said:


> Thats really what I’m thinking, I’ll eventually figure it out.


Sent PM.


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## johneggers446 (4 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> Can you please explain this?


Yes, I did want to emphasize that there are several GSD breeds, and if you ask a competent breeder about them, he or she is more likely to be aware of them than a novice who might not.


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## Katiebob (Aug 9, 2021)

johneggers446 said:


> Yes, I did want to emphasize that there are several GSD breeds, and if you ask a competent breeder about them, he or she is more likely to be aware of them than a novice who might not.


Do you mean lines? There's one BREED of German Shepherd - the German Shepherd.


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## johneggers446 (4 mo ago)

Katiebob said:


> Do you mean lines? There's one BREED of German Shepherd - the German Shepherd.


Yes exaclty.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

johneggers446 said:


> Yes, I did want to emphasize that there are several GSD breeds, and if you ask a competent breeder about them, he or she is more likely to be aware of them than a novice who might not.


Do you have WGWL, WGSL, DDR, Czech, KNPV, ASL and mixed line dogs?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

johneggers446 said:


> Yes, I did want to emphasize that there are several GSD breeds, and if you ask a competent breeder about them, he or she is more likely to be aware of them than a novice who might not.


I think you may have used the term "breed" twice incorrectly.


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## johneggers446 (4 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> Do you have WGWL, WGSL, DDR, Czech, KNPV, ASL, and mixed line dogs?


Basically, my friend is a GSD breeder that works professionally. you can visit his website too "#1 German Shepherd Dogs Breeder & Seller" see if you can discover what you're searching for. He offers cross-line GSD in addition to superior European GSD.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Going to throw out a few things here:

Importing dogs from Germany does not make a breeder automatically great, nor are dogs from Germany somehow inherently better than USA bred dogs. It is also a red flag to me if a breeder incorporates an untitled dog and does not then title them or work the dog themselves. It is an additional red flag if the merit of a dog is solely based on the merit of their parents. I don’t care if XX has champion parents from Germany if XX herself/himself has nothing to prove for their own merit.

A show line dog with a IGP title is still a show line dog, not a working line. (I spoke with a stranger at a park who had this a bit mixed up).

A female in the 55lb range is not miniature, she is still within standard for a female.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

johneggers446 said:


> Basically, my friend is a GSD breeder that works professionally. You can phone him at the number "———————" to find out more about what he has to offer, and you can also visit his website too "#1 German Shepherd Dogs Breeder & Seller" see if you can discover what you're searching for. He offers cross-line GSD in addition to superior European GSD.


Posting personal information and numbers is not allowed.


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## johneggers446 (4 mo ago)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> Posting personal information and numbers is not allowed.


I'm sorry, sir. I've removed the phone number.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> Going to throw out a few things here:
> 
> Importing dogs from Germany does not make a breeder automatically great, nor are dogs from Germany somehow inherently better than USA bred dogs. It is also a red flag to me if a breeder incorporates an untitled dog and does not then title them or work the dog themselves. It is an additional red flag if the merit of a dog is solely based on the merit of their parents. I don’t care if XX has champion parents from Germany if XX herself/himself has nothing to prove for their own merit.
> 
> ...


The first red flag for me was seeing the breeder advertise on the very front of their website about a rare blue puppy 🙄


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

johneggers446 said:


> Basically, my friend is a GSD breeder that works professionally. you can visit his website too "#1 German Shepherd Dogs Breeder & Seller" see if you can discover what you're searching for. He offers cross-line GSD in addition to superior European GSD.


You may want to remove that link. There are a bunch of red flags on that site and though you are trying to help your friend, it will not do that here. This is not a breeder that would be recommended on this forum.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

in MY opinion, everybody starts off as a backyard breeder.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

dojoson41 said:


> in MY opinion, everybody starts off as a backyard breeder.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dojoson41 said:


> in MY opinion, everybody starts off as a backyard breeder.


Umm, no.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

dojoson41 said:


> in MY opinion, everybody starts off as a backyard breeder.


Nonsense!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

everyone is entitled to their opinion. IMHO, everyone starts off as a novice with the hopes that they will improve as time goes on. That is not the same as the "backyard breeder'. I think you need to define exactly what that means to you


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

dojoson41 said:


> in MY opinion, everybody starts off as a backyard breeder.


You have to define what you think a backyard breeder is to have a real discussion around this. By my definition which is generally someone breeding without a definitive purpose (I.E breeding for work or conformation while maintaining the integrity of the breed), it’s not true.


car2ner said:


> everyone is entitled to their opinion. IMHO, everyone starts off as a novice with the hopes that they will improve as time goes on. That is not the same as the "backyard breeder'. I think you need to define exactly what that means to you


In a literal sense, this is true. Everyone starts off knowing nothing. Functionally, I don’t agree. There are breeders who start off breeding their first dog they get with little hands on in experience. On the other end there are people who’ve been around along time before they start breeding. Willie pope jr certainly did not start as a novice. He grew up in the breed, with a father who was around when schutzhund came to America. I don’t think they are really equal.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

mycobraracr said:


> @Bearshandler I love Willie!


I know more of the dogs than the person. I’ve heard good things though.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> You have to define what you think a backyard breeder is to have a real discussion around this. By my definition which is generally someone breeding without a definitive purpose (I.E breeding for work or conformation while maintaining the integrity of the breed), it’s not true.
> 
> In a literal sense, this is true. Everyone starts off knowing nothing. Functionally, I don’t agree. There are breeders who start off breeding their first dog they get with little hands on in experience. On the other end there are people who’ve been around along time before they start breeding. Willie pope jr certainly did not start as a novice. He grew up in the breed, with a father who was around when schutzhund came to America. I don’t think they are really equal.


Good breeders learn how to breed before they ever have a litter. They work or apprentice with a good breeder. They learn something about genetics and health testing, about the breed itself, sports, and titles. They go to shows and see what the dogs are capable of doing.

A backyard breeder does very little to prep and knows much less than they think they do or they would not be bybs.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

car2ner said:


> Yes, no. Not all GSD people are schutzhund folk, especially if there are no good clubs nearby. But I agree that the dogs should work if not protection sports than trailing or herding. Something that tests endurance and will to work and ability to think.


Another thing that helps is if the hobby breeder mentors with an established breeder, and endeavors to temperment test their litters. Conscientious folks try not to place the right dog with the wrong person.


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