# Buying a non-OFA puppy...



## BradN88 (Jul 7, 2010)

we have our heart set on a great 10 week old puppy from a non-official breeder... second litter.... parents are 2.5 years old and healthy (i've spoken to their vet, no xrays)... all seems very good... execept this OFA thing.... I'm really not sure where to go - a local golden breeder told me she wouldn't go near it with a 10 foot poll... but someone has to buy the pup, will that be us???

I have researched dysplasia and understand the risks etc... parent dont have papers and neither do the pups.... just how high IS the risk????

any help would be much appreciated.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Sounds like that golden breeder gave you pretty sound advice if you ask me.

What are they charging for the pups?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

sounds like you're buying from a BYB.
why don't you find a reputable breeder
that does health screening?


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## Keylogh (Jun 5, 2010)

Grandparents? have you seen a pedigree? If the puppy is FREE, you won't be out much when/if you have to put it down. Doesn't that co$t much to get a dog OFA'd, but when it doesn't pass, you can't produce papers. Responsible breeders will not breed a NON-OFA'd or PENHIP passed breeding stock. Do you want to inherit a problem?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

BradN88 said:


> we have our heart set on a great 10 week old puppy from a non-official breeder... second litter.... parents are 2.5 years old and healthy (i've spoken to their vet, no xrays)... all seems very good... execept this OFA thing.... I'm really not sure where to go - a local golden breeder told me she wouldn't go near it with a 10 foot poll... but someone has to buy the pup, will that be us???
> 
> I have researched dysplasia and understand the risks etc... parent dont have papers and neither do the pups.... just how high IS the risk????
> 
> any help would be much appreciated.


My problem isn't with those puppies.

My problem is spending one cent of MY money with a breeder who is NOT being responsible and doing their best for the breed.

I know that I choose to spend MY money on a breeder who is doing their darn best to improve the health and temperment of their chosen breed and will spend their time and money to learn what that means. 

There is NEVER a 100% knowledge that you will get a perfect health perfect temperment puppy no matter what. You can end up with a long lived healthy GSD for free or at a shelter. But I realize that I up my chances of getting what I want by researching and finding the best responsible breeder with the type of dog I am looking for. 

Those are the breeders that will get my $$$. Cause my money is actually going to support their breeding program so they can continue with a program I agree with.

So I realize at this point that my $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't really going to the puppy at all. It's going to the breeder to allow them to continue to try to do the best they can to research and improve their lines to get the type of dog I want. Genetics is always going to be able to throw a wrench into the works of any breeder. But a responsible breeder will learn and develop and continue to try to really do the best to get me a puppy that's fit for my needs as well as working to help the breed in general.

There are more than enough 'ok' GSD's out there being sold in newspapers or in shelters and rescues. I can get one of those and not pay any cash to the breeder who ALLOWED THEIR PUPPIES TO BE IN A KILL SHELTER in the first place. My money is NOT ever going to support one of those breeders. Ever.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

BradN88 said:


> we have our heart set on a great 10 week old puppy from a non-official breeder... second litter.... parents are 2.5 years old and healthy (i've spoken to their vet, no xrays)... all seems very good... execept this OFA thing.... I'm really not sure where to go - a local golden breeder told me she wouldn't go near it with a 10 foot poll... *but someone has to buy the pup, will that be us???*
> 
> I have researched dysplasia and understand the risks etc... parent dont have papers and neither do the pups.... just how high IS the risk????
> 
> any help would be much appreciated.


Don't ask what is the risk. Ask if you can afford to pay for bad hips and elbows.

Someone doesn't have to buy the pups, the pups could end up at a shelter if the breeder doesn't find homes. Ask yourself what type of breeder you want to support. Someone who is not breeding ethically or someone who does. Buy the pup from the shelter


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> My problem isn't with those puppies.
> 
> My problem is spending one cent of MY money with a breeder who is NOT being responsible and doing their best for the breed.


Exactly. Those puppies could be a mess or they could be perfectly normal, but that's not the point. Why financially support and encourage this type of breeding??!?! If you're feeling reservations about it, there's a good reason why....

Nobody HAS to buy those pups, the breeders can keep them and raise them since they bred them!


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## BradN88 (Jul 7, 2010)

he is asking $500 for the puppies...


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## Keylogh (Jun 5, 2010)

I have a male pup that is only $500.00 and his father is OFA EXCELLENT, Mother is OFA Good, both parents are from American SHOW lines -- YOU CAN DO WAY BETTER WITH YOUR $500.00 -- Heck mine even come with hip/elbow and health guarentee for $500.00 ???????? What are you thinking?




_*edited by admin. - no personal attacks please.*_


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You called his vet and he said no x-rays.

That is what my vet would say as well. 

I go to a different vet for hip and elbow x-rays. 

I go in hopes of getting better positioning from a vet clinic that does this more often.

No papers, $500? I agree that you should be able to do better than that. $500 is cheap for a dog. If you are getting papers, you may have to sacrifice other things, titles, good pedigree, ofa, 

You may end up with a great pet from this breeder, but I agree that I would not give $500 to a BYB. Much better to wait and give three times that to a responsible breeder who are working to improve the health, structure, and temperament of the breed.


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## BradN88 (Jul 7, 2010)

Keylogh... I haven't bought the dog, thus me posting the question on here... so comments like "you're crazy" and "what are you thinking" aren't necessary now, or at any point.


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## Keylogh (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes, My apology. I'm the crazy one for selling OFA quality pup's from Dual Champion breeding for only $500.00


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BradN88 said:


> he is asking $500 for the puppies...


That's a lot for a puppy from unregistered parents. They might be perfectly healthy and wonderful dogs, but without AKC papers there's no proof that the parents and puppies are purebred, which automatically makes them worth less $$$.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

The bottom line for me is no xrays. That 500$ could be better saved and put towards a dog who has been at the very least, health tested.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> *The bottom line for me is no xrays. That 500$ could be better saved and put towards a dog who has been at the very least, health tested*.


I couldn't agree more.

OP you could get a fantastic puppy from them but in a couple of years he could develope serious health problems that could cost you a ton of money to fix them if they can be fixed. You could also lose that dog at a young age. 

I would find a reputable breeder, it could cost you anywhere from $800 to $1200 and sometimes more but it is worth it. The reputable breeders do health tests and temperment tests and they choose to breed dogs that are worthy of breeding. They will find the perfect puppy that will fit your personality and your lifestyle. Not only that but the really good breeders will help you and give their support throughout the life of your puppy/dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BradN88 said:


> he is asking $500 for the puppies...


Holy Cashola, Batman! That's NUTS for no papers and no hip x-rays! This is a breeder who's trying to make a buck off their dogs, pure and simple. They're not paying for hip and health testing, they're not paying for any type of titling, and they're overcharging for the dogs. This is a "breeder" who's willing to cut corners at every turn in order to save money. I'll bet you they're feeding the parents Purina or something similar.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

My pup came from my friends 1st liter, parents both were OFA certified, and both parents were tested for several genetic issues before the breeding. Some would call them BYB, but they did what any responsible real breeder would do. Zoe has papers, is a great dog, but......I am waiting till she is 1 because she waddles when she walks and I question the health of her hips. Even with OFA parents and health testing bad hips can be produced. I personally have never bought a dog without papers or health tested parents though because it does give you some piece of mind and allows you to venture into competition and other venues IF you chose down the road Save up for a little while and get a dog with a more sound background and papers if you can- it may be well worth the wait


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I am waiting till she is 1 because she waddles when she walks and I question the health of her hips.


Instead of waiting til she is one, you can have prelim's done and if the hips are questionable start with supplements to help.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Really? How do I go about finding a vet in Maryland who specializes in doing these x-rays? I here positioning and experience is key so if anyone lives in or around my area with a vet who can position correctly let me know please


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Start a new thread on this, the board has many people in your area that could point you to a good vet. I do know that the price is much higher in your locale compared to mine. So shopping around or maybe travelling elsewere for this may be an option if money is an issue.


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

I run the gamut from a GSD rescue (wonderful dog), BYB WGSD and a German import puppy. I'll do the rescue again, and I'm not a puppy person, so I'm not sure if I'll go that route again, but I'll never, ever give another penny to a back yard breeder now that I know better. Maybe if people wouldn't buy their puppies, there would be no reason for them to breed. There are some wonderful hobby breeders out there that work hard to get you the best, most healthy puppy possible, and you get a lifetime of good advice and education from them. Same can't be said from the BYB who only knows your name because it's written on your check.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

You asked about the risk... well I'll tell you.

My Rottweiler is from a BYB (I got him from rescue, but he was originally from a BYB). I adopted him June 28, 2009. Since that time, he has had digestive issues, chronic ear infections, elbow dysplasia, and liver and kidney issues (most likely genetic). I spent *over $7,500.00* *in vet bills in less than one year's time* on this dog, all because someone decided it would be a good idea to breed their un-tested dogs to get cute puppies. 

Money aside, I'm facing the very real possibility that this dog that I love with all of my heart and soul will be taken from me far too early. His kidney/liver issues remain unresolved, and it's very possible his kidneys will simply cease to function someday.

If you are prepared for the financial and emotional risks, rescue a puppy from untested parents, rather than putting money in the pockets of these BYBs... giving them the funds to breed again, and again, and again. Maybe one person can't make a difference... but the more we spread the word, the less people who buy from BYBs... the closer we get to fixing this horrible problem.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> You asked about the risk... well I'll tell you.
> 
> My Rottweiler is from a BYB (I got him from rescue, but he was originally from a BYB). I adopted him June 28, 2009. Since that time, he has had digestive issues, chronic ear infections, elbow dysplasia, and liver and kidney issues (most likely genetic). I spent *over $7,500.00* *in vet bills in less than one year's time* on this dog, all because someone decided it would be a good idea to breed their un-tested dogs to get cute puppies.
> 
> ...


What an excellent post! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LaRen616 said:


> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> OP you could get a fantastic puppy from them but in a couple of years he could develope serious health problems that could cost you a ton of money to fix them if they can be fixed. You could also lose that dog at a young age.
> 
> I would find a reputable breeder, it could cost you anywhere from $800 to $1200 and sometimes more but it is worth it. The reputable breeders do health tests and temperment tests and they choose to breed dogs that are worthy of breeding. They will find the perfect puppy that will fit your personality and your lifestyle. *Not only that but the really good breeders will help you and give their support throughout the life of your puppy/dog*.


Buying from a good breeder does not guarantee good hips, good elbows, good health. Good breeders are doing all they can to give their puppies the best shot at those things, but it does not mean your dog will not die young or that your dog will not cost you upwards to $7500 in vet bills in a year -- it can happen. 

But a good breeder will want to know, they will care, they will probably not help you out with veterinary cost, but they may offer you a second puppy because of the all of the trouble, even if it is not something specifically guaranteed in their contract.

Good breeders are involved in the dog fancy. They have tons of knowledge and they are doing this with a plan.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The question is are you able to afford to pay for total hip replacements if the dog develops hip dysplasia? The cost for the surgery is anywhere from $3000-6000 per hip, not counting the price of medications, supplements, rehabilitation/physical therapy or recovery.

If you do get the pup I would suggest you get pet insurance right away, one that covers hip dysplasia (many of them do not.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But ChicagoCanine, if you buy ANY dog from ANY breeder with both sire and dam having ANY passing hip evaluations, OFA Excellent, A-normal, PennHip, you can STILL get a puppy with HD. 

I have not heard of a breeder yet that will reimburse you the cost of a hip surgery. It is not done. You would have to charge that much for a puppy. 

By the time it is diagnosed, most people do not want to trade their pup in for another. 

Usually HD does not require surgery at all. But it may, and if you send the pup back to the breeder, the chances are the breeder will euthanize the puppy -- much easier than dealing with an owner that got the dog cheap or free knowing full-well about the problem. 

Regardless of who you buy the pup from, you might consider pet insurance if you cannot afford the possibility of hip or elbow dysplasia, but check out the list of issues that GSDs are prone to, and ensure that your policy covers most if not all of them. 

HE and ED do not scare the bejesus out of me. Mega E does. A telescoping esaphagus does. osteosarcoma does. Spondylosis does. Bloat does. 

There are many, many reasons to buy from a breeder who is doing health screenings and trying to reduce the liklihood of these major issues. But the main one from me is that by paying the money to this breeder for a "cheap" puppy, you are encouraging them to blindly breed their dogs again and again.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Regarding x-rays for OFA. The OFA form, that the vet has to sign, has clear instructions on how to take the x-rays. My vet seemed surprised at the instructions, but that's how she did them and they came out fine. If the x-rays are sloppy, the vet needs to redo them on their own dime. Usually, they keep the dog sedated until they are sure they have clean shots. So, a competent vet/x-ray tech should be able to take them.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

selzer said:


> But ChicagoCanine, if you buy ANY dog from ANY breeder with both sire and dam having ANY passing hip evaluations, OFA Excellent, A-normal, PennHip, you can STILL get a puppy with HD.


Anyone that doesn't believe the above statement, or thinks it's rare that a pup ends up with HD when coming from a long line of OFA'd dogs is deluding themselves.

Kodi came from a breeder originally. His breeder did not properly screen his home, and the puppy purchaser ended up having to rehome him. The breeder would not take him to find him a new home, so his owner adopted him out to us at 8 months old.

He is now 1 year, and we have cleared the $6,000 mark in medical expenses for hip dysplasia. That was the cost of diagnosis, replacement, and aftercare for ONE hip. The other will have to be done as well.

He was free. His hip dysplasia was so severe that our options were black and white. Euthanize immediately (left hip actually dislocated due to lack of structural support) or replace the hip, and be prepared to replace the other as well for a good quality of life.

To the poster that said "if he is free, you won't be out much when you have to put him down." WOW, how heartless! Our pup was free, and we could have put him down. We certainly do not have this money laying around, but once you are bonded to the dog how can you just put them down when you know they can have a good quality of life if some $$ is spent. What is the price you pay to save a life worth saving? I guess that is up to each individual person, but to assume that if the dog is free he just should be put down if something turns up is rather heartless IMHO. I guess if we had paid the original price he was from the breeder that the former owner paid ($1,200 with limited AKC reg., 1,500 with full) he would have been deemed worthwhile of saving? Kodi's former owner keeps in regular contact, and we just took him up there to visit her when she gave us his old cage. The breeder? Haven't heard a peep from her since the words "hip dysplasia" were mentioned. Sad.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My friend had a stray kitten start hanging around, took it in. 
Yesterday he was limping/ broken leg=ortho vet pins/rods surgery...free kitten. She did not put him down because of the cost to fix him. 

The cost of the pup is minimal to the lifetime of care. Do not support BYB's please!!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> But ChicagoCanine, if you buy ANY dog from ANY breeder with both sire and dam having ANY passing hip evaluations, OFA Excellent, A-normal, PennHip, you can STILL get a puppy with HD.



Of course that is true, but if you buy a dog with parents who have not been tested, you are stacking the odds against them and the risk is higher.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I would never recommend someone buy from a backyard breeder. But my SO and I have marveled over the odds just with our four.

Two from supposedly good breeding (Kodi and Akira)....both have HD (Kodi very severe, Akira minor). Both have allergies, Akira has EPI as well. Hopefully Kodi won't end up with that too!

Micah was a freebie off craigslist, healthy as a horse, and Audrey was pulled near death from a rural shelter in Kentucky, healthy as a horse.

Go figure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So often I hear people using this argument to go to a real-breeder. And it IS a good reason, BUT most breeders will only replace a puppy. They do not pay for veterinary care. 

And there is a long list of ailments that the breed is noted for. 

I really do not know that it does stack the deck in your favor to ensure hip scores. I want to believe that. 

What is notable is that a good breeder is paying attention to a lot more than just hips and elbows.

A breeder who is not paying attention is a bit more of a gamble. 

But lots of people do get puppies from questionable sources and they are not all dysplastic or unhealthy. 

What is problematic is the attitude that somebody is going to have to buy this puppy. Someone will have to give it a home. The only way to stop people from breeding purposely ignorantly is to not contribute to it being lucrative. 

The funny thing is that a crappy breeder will make money on puppies sold for $500, while a good breeder will lose money on puppies sold for $1500. And the more puppies produced, the better the profit margin, but the good breeder does not breed as many as possible, while the crappy breeder does. 

If the crappy breeder has to give the pups away or sell them for a nominal amount, they will reconsider breeding their bitch again. If they sell them all rapidly for their asking price, they will continue to breed and breed and breed. 

This may not mean a lot to someone just looking for a pup. The healthy/unhealthy thing strikes them more deeply. But way too many people know people that got a pup out of the paper or from a friend or co-worker that hasn't had any major problems, and did not pay a small fortune for it. 

So the argument loses steam. 

Yes there are individuals out there that got an unhealthy dog. I am not 100% sure that there are more incidents of this from BYBs and good breeders if you take into consideration the number of bybs as apposed to reputably bred dogs. If it is 10% across the board, yes there will be a lot more dogs from BYBs with issues, because there are way more dogs produced by bybs, but you are not really any more likely to have a serious issue going to a BYB. 

I have not seen any studies for this. 

One would hope with careful deliberation as to blood lines, breeding choices, medical screenings, good nutrician this would not be the case.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I just want to highlight some of the GREAT advice you've already been given. I couldn't say it any better then others already have. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> My problem isn't with those puppies.
> 
> My problem is spending one cent of MY money with a breeder who is NOT being responsible and doing their best for the breed.
> 
> ...





Liesje said:


> Exactly. Those puppies could be a mess or they could be perfectly normal, but that's not the point. *Why financially support and encourage this type of breeding??!?! If you're feeling reservations about it, there's a good reason why....*
> 
> Nobody HAS to buy those pups, the breeders can keep them and raise them since they bred them!





Whitedog404 said:


> I run the gamut from a GSD rescue (wonderful dog), BYB WGSD and a German import puppy. I'll do the rescue again, and I'm not a puppy person, so I'm not sure if I'll go that route again, *but I'll never, ever give another penny to a back yard breeder now that I know better. Maybe if people wouldn't buy their puppies, there would be no reason for them to breed.* There are some wonderful hobby breeders out there that work hard to get you the best, most healthy puppy possible, and you get a lifetime of good advice and education from them. Same can't be said from the BYB who only knows your name because it's written on your check.





selzer said:


> There are many, many reasons to buy from a breeder who is doing health screenings and trying to reduce the liklihood of these major issues. *But the main one from me is that by paying the money to this breeder for a "cheap" puppy, you are encouraging them to blindly breed their dogs again and again.*





onyx'girl said:


> The cost of the pup is minimal to the lifetime of care. Do not support BYB's please!!





selzer said:


> The only way to stop people from breeding purposely ignorantly is to not contribute to it being lucrative.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chicagocanine said:


> The question is are you able to afford to pay for total hip replacements if the dog develops hip dysplasia? The cost for the surgery is anywhere from $3000-6000 per hip, not counting the price of medications, supplements, rehabilitation/physical therapy or recovery.
> 
> If you do get the pup I would suggest you get pet insurance right away, one that covers hip dysplasia (many of them do not.)


For me it is a quality of life issue, not a breakdown of cost. There are some dogs that I would not put through that procedure even if someone else volunteered to pay for it.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Liesje said:


> For me it is a quality of life issue, not a breakdown of cost. There are some dogs that I would not put through that procedure even if someone else volunteered to pay for it.


I know but when people are interested in getting a dog from a BYB because it's cheaper, it often works better if you explain that it can end up costing a lot more in the long run.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Keylogh said:


> .....I'm the crazy one for selling OFA quality pup's from Dual Champion breeding for only $500.00


Agreed. I really respect the herding work you are accomplishing with your ASL! :thumbup:


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I wouldn't do it....

I think $500 sounds like alot to spend on a dog without health tested parents, or proof that it's purebred. I also would like to see some sort of knowledge of genetics from a breeder. If both parents carry a certain disease and they don't bother to check into that, then the pups could have the disease full blown...and well, GSDs can have alot of "issues". It sounds like the people have little regard for the best interest of the breed itself. No health tests or genetic backup, no papers, and if this is the 2nd litter, the female was either bred 2 heats in a row, or probably too early. Sounds like they are just in it to make money off of you. I would do some research. Trust me, the suspense will build and you'll super excited and your puppy will be like a piece of heaven when he/she comes home! Put your money into the hands of those who deserve it.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

Others have given some great advice..so here is my 2 cents

I wouldnt spend $500 on an unreg or untested dog

If you are looking for a less expensive puppy..there are many BYB type puppies out there at $350 or less and they are even registered

spend time on the classified sites like puppyfind and you will start getting a feel for what is out there. be sure to look at the parents..your cute puppy will most likely grow up looking like mom and dad, and there can be some downright ugly ones out there!!

However, this is a 13 yr or so investment- emotionally and in time and money. and with such a nobel breed as a shepherd, you may find it worth it to spend the extra to get a puppy from health tested parents of known backgrounds and perhaps, with a pedigree and inclination to be the best match for you and your family.

Good luck finding your next friend!!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Just as a side note, I suggest to get a pet insurance the same day you bring your puppy home. In this case you will not be scared if your pup develops HD or gets hurt in an accident.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Not much that I can add but I think you need to move on and invest your $500.00 in a more predicable puppy. There might be no risk at all but you are really taking your chances in a case like this. I might think differently if the puppy were free.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

If I'm paying good money for a good dog, it better come from health tested parents AND when it becomes of age, it better PASS OFA or it'll go back to the breeder. Too many people producing Dysplastic dogs IMHO. Then they keep using the same pairings over and over creating the same problems. I won't buy a puppy from un-health tested parents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VonKromeHaus said:


> If I'm paying good money for a good dog, it better come from health tested parents AND when it becomes of age, it better PASS OFA or it'll go back to the breeder. Too many people producing Dysplastic dogs IMHO. Then they keep using the same pairings over and over creating the same problems. I won't buy a puppy from un-health tested parents.


So when your puppy reaches two years old and is tested, if it has mild HD, you will send it back to the breeder to be euthanized? 

Wow. 

I have never requested a hip guarantee on dogs that I bought, I have some, but they are not worth the parchment. No way would I EVER send a pup back to the breeder for HD after I raised it for 12 or 24 months. Prior to 12 months, I would not trust the x-rays. If the dog had crippling HD or ED, if surgery was out of the question, than I would euthanize before I would send it to the breeder to euthanize. 

I believe is stacking the deck in my favor, but when I purchase a dog, that dog is mine warts and all. Whatever that dog has or gets, we will do our best with it. HD is not nealy as scarey to me as some of the other stuff out there. You can literally jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Take a dog back for mild HD, and get a dog with MegaE or DM or crippling spondylosis, or epilepsy.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what sue said ^^^..


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

selzer said:


> *So when your puppy reaches two years old and is tested, if it has mild HD, you will send it back to the breeder to be euthanized? *
> 
> Wow.
> 
> ...




NEVER


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