# Working Line Question



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I am a student of SchH, and in the process of training my current GSD. She is a 13 month-old highline that shows promise if we both continue to work hard......but as a sure sign of the addiction, I am already planning and studying for a male working line puppy even though bringing him home is certainly a couple of years away.

So, my question is.....what are some of the "famous" or "notable" lines I should read about? I have scanned this forum back about 12 months or more and did not find a thread that talked in general terms about working line stars. Could you provide a link to a prior thread that would hit this subject?, or, What names would stand-out in a pedigree that I could research/study/read about? I am sure there are too many to really list, but I am also sure there are some that most who share the SchH addiction would agree upon.

Thanks in advance.

Wayne


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I think you could start by researching back on dogs from the BSP, WUSV teams. Look at dogs you like, look at pedigrees, siblings etc. Talking to breeders, people in the sport, looking at dogs that you like since you are involved in schutzhund. Have to remember, people all their own preferences on certain bloodlines-you'll have to form your own opinions. Also there are some good forums just dedicated to talking bloodlines.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

To add to what Trish says, go to trials, including some of the bigger trials and watch the dogs. Then, like I tell most people looking for their first dogs, find a breeder that you like and trust, and go from there. I would look for breeders that are actually out there, on the field, training and titling dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with getting out to see dogs work. This helps you develop and eye for what makes for a dog who is a suitable match for your goals, and will also help you develop a picture in your head of what sort of traits you want in your dog and what sort of traits you don't.

When you see a dog you really like, or really don't like, inquire about the pedigree. In time, you'll start to see patterns develop... certain bloodlines or individual dogs appearing often in the pedigrees of dogs you like, and likely in the dogs you dislike as well, and that will give you a starting point of what bloodlines to look into further and what ones to avoid because they don't fit what you are looking for.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

The single most important thing I have learned thus far with respect to my passion for SchH is that there will never (and I seldom use the word never), but there will never be an easy answer!

To the point Trish made, I received my first USA magazine, and have already read that cover to cover, and have done some research on-line regarding Jai vom Olgameister and Deb Zappia....and as for talking to breeder and folks in the sport....I am concerned some will be seeking a restraining order against me I have been so bothersome!!! LOL I have also gleaned names of both GSDs and kennels from various threads here, and again, surf on-line to learn a bit more.

To Lisa's point, I am going to the Capital Area SchH Club trial as a spectator in October, and trust me, I will be keeping notes and getting names.

With what Chris said, adds something I had not considered, which is looking equally as hard at the dogs I may not favor, and understanding their pedigree.....that is an excellent point.

As for the dogs I have seen, Beowulf v Wildhaus is at the top of my list, and I am eager to watch him continue to work....and for dogs I have read about, Jai v Olgameister seems to be an impressive brut.

The other thing I have done is glean kennel names, especially from the thread started late last month on working line breeders....thank was a good thread for me to lurk.

Like I said, I am a student of SchH, and really a student of GSDs....my first (rest her soul) was an American line, my current a highline that works, and when I have learned and worked and studied, and worked some more.....I will find the working line male that will be apex of this effort.

So if anyone would like to through some names at me to research, you might make it alittle easier on me....or is this the trial I have to go through because it is against some unwritten SchH code to make it easy on the Newbie!!!!LOL


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Most breeders favor certain lines or prominant dogs - others will not want the same dogs in their breeding program....the trick is to find out what each breeders reasons for and experience with certain lines is - sometimes this is cause for enemity and resentment, and other times, people can agree to disagree and be friends anyway LOL....

Look at pedigrees of dogs that breeders use and how they tie together or if they do. Look at prominant names in those pedigrees and see where else they are used, and how sucessful they are. 

There are always people who have different opinions. But they should be backed by a reason which is demonstrable. I know that Trish and I, for example, have some tastes in common and some very opposite - but we generally laugh about disagreeing. Our experiences and firsthand observations are different and the secondary sources of observation are different too...as they easily can be as there are so many dogs out there with common denominators. The key is to take the information and prioritize it to weigh risks - or predict what can come through generations - and if you will get what you expect.

I went to Belgium, visited a couple of clubs/kennels, met dogs. I like certain things because of that exposure. I keep in pretty close touch with a trainer/helper who sees pups from my female and another friend who is a professional broker. We had settled on a ****** breeding (down the road) when the dog only had a BH. That visit is partially why I have Basha and have done the breedings based on what I saw there as well as from other dogs I like, have chosen the males to breed based on other dogs I like to combine them in the pedigrees of the pups. I have seen progeny of a few dogs which have caused me to avoid certain dogs. Others may avoid dogs in a pedigree that I like because their exposure was different than mine.

Different areas of the country seem to have different pockets of bloodlines. People are influenced by the dogs they see in their training groups. This is NORMAL. It is not a matter of ""right and wrong" or "good and bad" - there are good dogs in every prominant line - or they would not be prominant! The key is finding what will mesh best with YOUR goals, experience, personality and a breeder who will have it and be supportive.

Good Luck!

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02As for the dogs I have seen, Beowulf v Wildhaus is at the top of my list, and I am eager to watch him continue to work....


LOL... well.. as much as I love Wulfie, he's drop dead gorgeous and impressive as can be when working, I'm not sure a dog who is having trouble getting titled because he's a butthead who's also become collar and trial wise so keeps getting himself DQed for being out of control in protection at trials is something to shoot for as your next dog.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum
> I know that Trish and I, for example, have some tastes in common and some very opposite - but we generally laugh about disagreeing.
> 
> Lee


LOL! True!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Wayne02As for the dogs I have seen, Beowulf v Wildhaus is at the top of my list, and I am eager to watch him continue to work....
> ...


That is exactly the point....as I think is so common with so many novices...myself included, appearance is too strong a driver in selection and it is only after doing the homework that I am beginning to understand what is important.....clearly I have work to do with my highline girl and she affords me the opportunity to learn, and thank God she is as eager as she is to do the work for a highline....but it was appearance that drove my somewhat uninformed selection. 

I am now looking to take a couple of years, while Dayna and I train, to do my homework. My next pup will be a working line male that will be based on a studied understanding and the best selection I can make.....and by then, in theory, I will be a better trainer and handler to work that pup. My struggle at this juncture is that I want to run out and get that working line pup today!!!!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Another good idea, Wayne, would be to visit clubs and watch dogs in training. You would have much more chance to talk to people about lines, though most dogs at the big trials end up on the pedigreedatabase.com.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthAnother good idea, Wayne, would be to visit clubs and watch dogs in training. You would have much more chance to talk to people about lines, though most dogs at the big trials end up on the pedigreedatabase.com.


I routinely travel to Charlotte North Carolina, Ft. Wayne & Indianapolis Indiana, and San Antonio Texas....I think I will take your advice and do some visiting while on the road for work....it will sure beat sitting in a hotel room in the evenings. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Wayne,

There are a few good clubs with different lines in the areas you mentioned. People that have been training and handling a lot of the lines (or have seen the dogs work) that people talk about.

Let me know if you will be in the Indy area 3rd week of Nov. There will be a trial and show that weekend. We will be showing 3 dogs (Enzo in working, Fannie in working and their son Dax in the 12-18) plus a breed survey on Fannie.

I know people in the other areas you mentioned.

Best thing is to step back and really take you time and look, listen and disect.


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## Karla_Calderon (May 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> ...


I may be reading into this and I don't know the dog in question but I do see alot of new handlers wanting the "hard" dog. IMO, if you don't have the experience and a superior club with which to help you, this is a tremendous mistake. Keep in mind, a hard dog does not necessarily make you a better trainer. Its great that you are putting a lot of thought into this and recognize that "appearances" alone does not make for the best match!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Karla_CalderonI may be reading into this and I don't know the dog in question but I do see alot of new handlers wanting the "hard" dog. IMO, if you don't have the experience and a superior club with which to help you, this is a tremendous mistake. Keep in mind, a hard dog does not necessarily make you a better trainer. Its great that you are putting a lot of thought into this and recognize that "appearances" alone does not make for the best match!


Based on my research, I have nothing but respect for you and Dean, without even meeting you yet.....and having said that....your are absolutely correct....you're reading way too much into my study of the GSD and working lines.

I am happy my highline girl will work.
















But more important, any dog in my home is part of the family in every sense of the word, she sleeps in my bed, sits in my favorite chair (until I tell her to get up) and the only problem I have is keeping her out of the tub.










As I am sure you can well imagine, although I love my highline girl, I would like to grow into the right working line dog to further develop my passion for SchH.....thats about as complex as it is.

Based on my study, a breeder like Dean Calderon is on my short list, and in a couple of years when I have learned as much as I can, and had what success I can achieve with my highline girl....then I will approach a breeder of Dean's caliber, outline my status, knowledge/experience level and have confidence that someone like him would assist me in selecting a male working line pup with an appropriate temperament.

Thank you for investing the time to share your thoughts with a SchH plebian such as myself. I look forward to meeting you someday, as my business takes me into both Tulsa and OKC....and I am a graduate of the University of Central Oklahoma....so I am very fond of your home state!!!

Thanks again,

Wayne


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## Karla_Calderon (May 15, 2005)

My apologies for reading way too much - this has been a topic of discussion amongst myself and Dean as well as myself and other breeders - having just had to rehome a "hard" dog that was simply too much for the handler (we did try to steer him another direction to no avail). 

I think you will definitely find a working line pup that suits both you and your family's needs.

btw, our recently formed club is made up of 99% new handlers and we are open to guests at anytime. We have a vast selection of dogs being trained from Rotties, wl, showlines and a few dobies to boot, its quite the "mork and mindy" show! Don't wait to come out if you have the opportunity .


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## Karla_Calderon (May 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> Thank you for investing the time to share your thoughts with a SchH plebian such as myself. I look forward to meeting you someday, as my business takes me into both Tulsa and OKC....and I am a graduate of the University of Central Oklahoma....so I am very fond of your home state!!!


Heck, I'm just the computer nerd, pooper scooper and puppy mom. I graduated from OSU so I spend alot of my time on the road for my job as well (I was a platnium member for HI by the beginning of May of this year). I've not been to Michigan but hope to get up there someday to tour Cook Nuclear. 

Its a hoot, whenever any asks just how on earth Dean landed in Oklahoma he points at me







and when we have guests from out of state/country - first thing on order for Dean is to take them to our local Walmart so that they can see how ******** really live. Of course then I remind him that we shop there too (our only somewhat close grocery store).

Back to the topic at hand and learning.... try to attend as many seminars as possible - this is a good place to see alot of training of different dogs. Look at not only the bloodlines but also the linebreeding. I am seeing a tremendous amount of success with dogs linebred on the T litter von der bösen Nachbarschaft.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee of Wolfstrum, that was an excellent post you wrote and I think contained a lot of good information...JMO


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Karla_Calderon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No harm, no foul. I can appreciate where you're coming from....I have been lurking on this forum for over a year, ever since my first GSD died, I found this place to be good therapy....I was a mess for several months when I lost my dog of a lifetime, and what little posting I did, generated tons of warm responses that truly helped.

To your point, I have read a few posts from testosterone latent guys who think SchH is about posessing the badest/meanest dog they can find....which merely translates to some compensation for their insecurities.

Me, on the otherhand, I am short, fat, bald and pretty darned comfortable with that....personally, I compensate by having a trophy wife, and keep my SchH training as a simple means by which I spend quality time with my GSD doing something we both enjoy.....plus, with five kids, it is an awesome escape from the house on a Saturday!!!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

> Quote: on the otherhand, I am short, fat, bald and pretty darned comfortable with that....personally, I compensate by having a trophy wife


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## darylehret (Mar 19, 2006)

These studies include dogs achieveing a V score in protection (96+) with at least SG overall (270+) in large national and international events by Louise Jollyman
http://www.dfwworkingdogs.com/interesting.asp
BSP 1999 - 2007
WUSV 1999 - 2007
USA Nationals 1999 - 2007

This one is a compilation of the three (1999-2006), and color coded (WIP) to help indicate bloodlines. You can click on the dog's name to follow a link to the full pedigree.
http://www.ehretgsd.com/topsport3.html

Blue: Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
>>>>>Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft
>>>>>>>>>Half vom Ruhbachtal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nick vom Heiligenbösch
>>>>>Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft
>>>>>>>>>Aly vom Vordersteinwald
>>>>>>>>>Yoschy von der Döllenwiese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tarzan vom Tiekerhook
>>>>>>>>>Rocky von den Zingelgärten
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Branko vom Saltztalblick

Green: Greif zum Lahntal
>>>>>Ylo vom Waldeckerhof
>>>>>>>>>Mink vom Haus Wittfield
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lewis Malatesta
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Crok vom Erlenbusch

Turquose: Greif zum Lahntal
>>>>>Arthus vom Lünsholz
>>>>>>>>>Karlo vom Peko Haus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pike von der Schafbachmuhle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Carmen vom Haus Pixner

Lt. Blue: Fado von Karthago

Orange: Robby vom Glockeneck
>>>>>Verwin vom Blitsaerd
>>>>>>>>>Orry von haus Antverpa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Qerry von haus Antverpa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tom van't Leefdaalhof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Eros v.d. Mohnwiese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ellute v.d. Mohnwiese

Purple: Lord vom Gleisdreieck

Red: Asko von der Lutter

Peach: Gildo vom Körbelbach
>>>>>Arek vom Stoffelblick
>>>>>>>>>Bandit van Gogh

Yellow: any Czech line

The final results of the BSP 2008 (Sep 19-21) can be seen here
http://www.schaeferhunden.eu/winsis_x/winsistrialevent.php?id=BSP-2008

And a shorter compilation of filtered results here (not intended to diminish the accomplishments of any who participated!) SG+ overall & SG+ in protection
http://www.ehretgsd.com/BSP2008-SGO-SGC.pdf

And as Karla mentions, line breeding on T-litter vd bösen Nachbarschaft produces some very strong performers, as in the example of the 1st place and 2nd place winners of the BSP 2008 (EACH of whom also had full littermates that participated and placed well!)


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## Karla_Calderon (May 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DarylEhretAnd as Karla mentions, line breeding on T-litter vd bösen Nachbarschaft produces some very strong performers, as in the example of the 1st place and 2nd place winners of the BSP 2008 (EACH of whom also had full littermates that participated and placed well!)


I believe two or three of the top five last year at the 2007 BSP were also linebred on the T litter. I would be curious to see the linebreeding on those beyond a V score in protection (hint hint







). We have two dogs linebred - one is 3-3 on Troll, the other 4-3 Troll, 4- Timmy. Both with never ending drive and alot of aggression without handler aggression. Secondary obedience (control) in the protection phase is a lot of work. Both are super dogs but being a novice handler myself, neither dog is for me, even with dh at the helm.


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## nanrao (Nov 27, 2002)

Not to forget that this year's BSP winner lives his life as a house dog with his handler/breeder and family which includes a young daughter and a few other dogs. 

I for one, cannot wait to see them at the WUSV. It just made my day seeing the results yesterday!!!! Proof also that Quaste von Ankenrutt is not just a one off female, but a producer in her own right.

Nandini


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DarylEhretThese studies include dogs achieveing a V score in protection (96+) with at least SG overall (270+) in large national and international events........


God Bless you DarylEhret.....this is exactly the type of information a knowledge hungry novice such as myself was looking for. Not only the specific references, but the links to data sources are awesome. Talk about throwing a dog a bone.....this should keep me busy for quite some time. Seriously, thank you.

Just to be clear, I am simply working to learn....in training my highline girl with Chris Wild and Liberty Working Dog Club....learning with the books I pick-up, and learning with the on-line research I do.

In October I will be attending a three day seminar, and attending my first trial as a spectator. The only thing that is regretable at the moment is my inability to make the trip to Cincinnati for the WUSV....I would love to see that, but there is always next year.

I am obsessed, and have no shame about it.


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