# At what point is a "breeder" a puppy mill?



## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Just wondering what your opinion is on, at what point, is a "breeder" actually more of a puppy mill?

To clarify - I'm not referring to a responsible breeders but, rather, people who breed, deliberately, outside the breed standard for example. 

Is it at a certain number of dogs? A certain number of litters/puppies per year? Conditions kept in?

Like - if a breeder is breeding several litters a year but keeping the dogs in good conditions does it matter how many litters they have if the dogs are well cared for?

Also - does the AKC require OFA for breeding (even if the puppies will only be limited registration)?

I know it's a lot of questions but...I found a breeder's site. I don't want to say who...and just had some questions.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't even know how to begin answering this. 

But NO, AKC does NOT require OFA, CERF, etc. for breeding. It'd be nice if they did.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

No references, no health contract-not a good sign, there are so many other things as well and am sure others will give you more info. Check with your local Kennel club as well, though that is not a guarantee as I found that out the hard way. Member of the Kennel Club recommended my breeder cause she had sold her one of her dogs. Ask for references from other clients too. AKC does not monitor or sanction invidividual breeders as I also found when I tried to file a complaint against the breeder I got my dog from. So do your research and be careful. You can get great references here and I wish I had known about this site when I was looking for a puppy.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Might be helpful

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ce-betweeen-puppy-mill-commercial-kennel.html


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Danielle - that would be nice...

I guess if a irresponsible breeder (breeding outside the standard, no OFA, no certs, etc) isn't breeding for quality are they just breeding for money? Like...an income? 

I don't think this breeder is a puppy mill...that was just a question sort of related to other questions when I got thinking.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Might be helpful
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ce-betweeen-puppy-mill-commercial-kennel.html


Thanks! I'm reading


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD_Xander said:


> Just wondering what your opinion is on, at what point, is a "breeder" actually more of a puppy mill?
> 
> *"Puppy Mill" is a term coined by the animal rights movement, PETA and HSUS around the time when they started using the term "Animal Shelter" instead of "Dog Pound." Other terms that have been embraced are "adopting," "rescuing," "guardians" and "BYB" or "backyard breeder." *
> 
> ...


Breeders are breeders, criminals are criminals. But we can all determine what is important in the people we choose to buy a dog from.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Selzer - Thank you. I actually had no idea that is where the term puppy mill came from. It makes sense being PETA and all. 

After doing some reading I would personally think the breeder I saw is a BYB. I'm certainly no one to talk being as Xander is from a BYB - parent's hip's OFA'd but no titles on parents that I'm aware of. It was before I saw this site...Do I regret the decision to get him? Yes and No. Yes because I don't want to see him with health problems but I also know that I wouldn't want to not have him! I now know that I will make sure and do more research and find a reputable breeder next time. But I would never give up Xander!


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

if the dogs are well cared for, I like the parents (temperments & confirmation), akc registration, and health checks,.......I'd buy one.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD_Xander said:


> Selzer - Thank you. I actually had no idea that is where the term puppy mill came from. It makes sense being PETA and all.
> 
> After doing some reading I would personally think the breeder I saw is a BYB. I'm certainly no one to talk being as Xander is from a BYB - parent's hip's OFA'd but no titles on parents that I'm aware of. It was before I saw this site...Do I regret the decision to get him? Yes and No. Yes because I don't want to see him with health problems but I also know that I wouldn't want to not have him! I now know that I will make sure and do more research and find a reputable breeder next time. But I would never give up Xander!


So if you get a dog from a BYB, it will have significant health problems?
If you get a dog from a breeder who jumps over all the hoops, you won't?

It would be nice if this was the case. Unfortunately, living things have health issues, some more, some less, and some of the best breeders out there have produced some of the worst problems.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSD_Xander said:


> Also - does the AKC require OFA for breeding (even if the puppies will only be limited registration)


AKC doesn't require a  thing for breeding except $$$ and that the parents be AKC registered. You can breed the most dysplastic, out of standard, oversized, floppy-eared, long-coated, weak-nerved GSD that you'd swear was a Pyrenees to their own littermate and as long as they're both AKC registered and you pay your money, all the puppies are eligible for full AKC registration.


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## Zenny (May 19, 2011)

I think Selzer said it all very well. But my question to you is why do you think you got your dog from BYB's if he is AKC and his parents both were OFA certified? Or did I miss something there? I think if the dogs were all healthy and past the certification and were loved and well taken care of by the breeder and have good temperaments, then you got a good dog.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> if the dogs are well cared for, I like the parents (temperments & confirmation), akc registration, and health checks,.......I'd buy one.


What kind of health checks? OFA? The breeder I earlier referred to had only OFA'd a couple dogs (based on what I checked in the OFA database). They did offer a health guarantee with the puppies but it had some interesting...rules/clauses which made me scratch my head. 

=============



Zenny said:


> I think Selzer said it all very well. But my question to you is why do you think you got your dog from BYB's if he is AKC and his parents both were OFA certified? Or did I miss something there? I think if the dogs were all healthy and past the certification and were loved and well taken care of by the breeder and have good temperaments, then you got a good dog.


I do believe I got a good dog. I say BYB in that other than OFA's on the parents there were no titles or certifications (GCG, AKC, etc). They owned the female but used a stud for the male. 

Selzer does have a good point - health problems can come from either a good breeder or a BYB. 

I think the only thing you can do is try to minimize your risk of genetic problems by buying from a good breeder that doesn't have those problems in their lines. That doesn't mean health problems can't pop up though - dogs are living, breathing animals and genetic/health problems happen - just like with humans.


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## Zenny (May 19, 2011)

If the breeder had a health guarantee that seemed questionable, I think I would go to them and make them clairify things just for my own peace of mind. If that is Xander in the picture, he is a beautiful dog by the way.

But I think as far as titles and stuff, I think it really depends what you want the dog for. I mean do you want to have a show dog for competition, a guard dog, or just a pet? Everybody is different and has different wants and needs. I do believe that everybody is the same in that they want their dogs to be healthy, loved and cared for. But we all have different goals for them. 

I definately think though any person weather professional breeder or BYB, if they are abusing, neglecting and just trying to use animals for their own selfish gain, they should not be supported in any way!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think when any breeder.....has to ask their "kennel help"..."Which dog or puppy is that?"...when being brought out of their very own kennels......**they have officially* *become a puppy mill**...._no matter how many times their *kennel* wins trophies_.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A puppy mill is any breeder we don't like or has breeding standards that don't meet our own standards.  And thanks to this thinking the AR's have gained a foot hold and eventually we will all be labeled puppy mills or BYB. 

Selzer, excellent post.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> puppy mill is any breeder we don't like or has breeding standards that don't meet our own standards.  And thanks to this thinking the AR's have gained a foot hold and eventually we will all be labeled puppy mills or BYB.


Exactly. All across the country new "Puppy Mill Laws" are being introduced. They are having a much greater impact on the hobby breeders and what people here would consider a good breeder than they are on the actual Puppy Mills. That's the kind of colateral damage the ARs were looking for. It is really quite cleaver how they have taken the emotionally charged term of "Puppy Mill" and painted every breeder with it. To the AR crowd, anyone who breeds is a puppy mill. One day animal enthusiasts will come to understand what a mistake it was to use that term but it will most likely be too late when they do.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

To me a puppy mill is someone who is breeding dozens if not hundreds of puppies a year. The breeding dogs are kept in kennels around the clock with little exercise and little affection or attention. Their job is simply to produce puppies. They are give almost no medical care and if one becomes sick it is simply disposed of or just tossed aside and allowed to suffer and die.

The the people running these operations care very little about the dogs in their care, they are only concerned with the profits. They pay absolutely no attention to health problems or diseases or temperment issues that many be passed down to pups so they certainly aren't trying to breed to prevent these issues. They are strictly profit based and as soon as a bitch is no longer profitable or if a puppy is born that can not be sold then they are dispatched quickly and not always humanely. 

Puppies are then sold to pet stores or over the internet. They do not want the general public coming to their place of operation to see the house of horrors. Puppies will be sold too early or sick, it doesn't matter. If the puppy dies after the sale is complete, too bad, so sad. 

That is what I think a puppy mill is.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Selzer, that's a killer post, balanced, informative & thought provoking. The phrases puppy mill & puppy farm were used many years before there even was a PETA although PETA might have embraced them in their pursuit of eliminating companion animals.

Puppy mills & puppy farms are large scale commercial entities that produce pets for sale in the pursuit of maximizing immediate profits with little to no regard for the health, well being & happiness of either the breeding stock or the pups/kits produced. They have no regard or interest in sound breeding practices. Many sell directly to pet stores. They often exist where animal welfare laws are most lenient. Those that comply with the law often do so at the bare minimum required.

No true puppy mill is a 'good breeder' although some are better than others in both conditions & the quality of the animals produced. Most bad breeders are not puppy mills & its regrettable that the phrase has been so misused as to become almost worthless. Ditto the over use & misuse of the 'BYB' label to every breeder someone dislikes or disagrees with.

IMO, only the AR extremists are well served by the promiscuous misuse of the terms & the consequent blurring of what they mean, who they actually are. IF the AR extremists prevail, squabbling about types, breeders, training etc will be rendered irrelevant.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

PETA had nothing to do with coining the term "puppy mill". I remember my Mother having a bumper sticker she purchased at a dog show in 1973 that said "Say No To Puppy Mills-Buy From A Breeder".

That predates PETA by what? Seven, eight years? PETA might use the term now, but it was in use way before PETA came into existence.
Sheilah


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

This is a Puppy Mill IMO:
YouTube - ‪Barkworks Exposed‬‏

**Warning: Graphic**

A puppy mill is someone(or more) where they breed, breed, breed, the dogs are not health tested for anything, they breed whatever they want, the dogs are not well kept, they are neglected and abused, the mom and pups are not taken care of properly, the dogs don't recieve vet care.

I applaud all the responsible, reptuable, caring, thoughtful breeders such as Robin, Anne, Chris, Lisa, Cliff, Selzer, and many other breeders who care for ther breed and do what they can to ensure they have healthy, sound and beautiful dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD_Xander said:


> What kind of health checks? OFA? The breeder I earlier referred to had only OFA'd a couple dogs (based on what I checked in the OFA database). They did offer a health guarantee with the puppies but it had some interesting...rules/clauses which made me scratch my head.
> 
> =============
> 
> ...


I am not trying to pick your post apart, because I am not trying to pick on you really. But some of the things that make you most concerned that your breeder was not reputable, are not bad signs at all. 

"They owned the female, but used a stud for the male" -- this could actually indicate an excellent breeder, who chooses not to breed his bitch to a sire of his own, but to match her with the best possible male for her. It is doubtful that the best male for your bitch is owned by you, unless you purchased one specifically to breed to that bitch after both were fully mature. Do you see how unlikely that could be? 

People who breed their own males to their own females, mayb be doing so for a couple of reasons: 

1. Some breeders have been burned by stud owners not disclosing what their dog produces. 

2. Some breeders have excellent stud dogs and have bought the females specifically to match the studs. 

3. By and far, people buy a dog pup and raise it to use with their AKC bitch. They use it for convenience, they own the dog, and it is not too closely related to the bitch, and shazam they will make pretty puppies. 

A dog may have good or excellent hips, normal elbows, normal thyroid, cardiac, spine x-rays, eyes, and any other tests one chooses to perform. He may be within the standard and have no disqualifying faults. He may even be a conformation champion. He may have titles, obedience, agility, schutzhund, herding, you name it. He may be a working dog, police or military dog. And he may be dead wrong for the bitch. A good breeder will shelve that dog and pay a stud fee for that bitch.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Selzer - that is true and a good point. I was more saying the breeder didn't own the male just to put it out there - not as a check mark against being a BYB. I think Xander wound up being exactly what I was looking for - a great family dog. I, at this point, have no intention to show, compete or breed - I just wanted a dog with a great personality  

After some more research - I don't know how I didn't find this before - I realized Xander's father was likely imported from a kennel in Germany. I know that doesn't mean they're a good breeder or not but...I just think it's kind of neat 

More than anything when starting this thread I wondered, not about Xander's breeder, but about the other breeder's site...I guess some things just didn't make sense to me. Breeding oversized dogs deliberately, breeding with only a couple OFAs (that I could find on the OFA database) - and I remember at least one of those OFAs was "fair". By my count I think they had about 9 litters planned for this year out of a little over a dozen dogs. By my count - IF each litter averaged 10 pups then, with the current prices, that would be over $90K - which, is a lot. Certainly not all profit with vet care, food, etc but - it's still quite a chunk of change. Again, that's only if each litter has a good outcome - still even $50k would be a lot.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD_Xander said:


> Selzer - that is true and a good point. I was more saying the breeder didn't own the male just to put it out there - not as a check mark against being a BYB. I think Xander wound up being exactly what I was looking for - a great family dog. I, at this point, have no intention to show, compete or breed - I just wanted a dog with a great personality
> 
> After some more research - I don't know how I didn't find this before - I realized Xander's father was likely imported from a kennel in Germany. I know that doesn't mean they're a good breeder or not but...I just think it's kind of neat
> 
> More than anything when starting this thread I wondered, not about Xander's breeder, but about the other breeder's site...I guess some things just didn't make sense to me. Breeding oversized dogs deliberately, breeding with only a couple OFAs (that I could find on the OFA database) - and I remember at least one of those OFAs was "fair". By my count I think they had about 9 litters planned for this year out of a little over a dozen dogs. By my count - IF each litter averaged 10 pups then, with the current prices, that would be over $90K - which, is a lot. Certainly not all profit with vet care, food, etc but - it's still quite a chunk of change. Again, that's only if each litter has a good outcome - still even $50k would be a lot.


Hmmm, out of the five bitches that I got out of Arwen and Dubya, I got four ofa goods and a fair. I have litters out of two of the goods. I have bred the fair, the other two I have not nor will I breed. In my case the two best bitches out of Arwen and Dubya are a Good, and a Fair -- total dog. Unfortunately, the Fair bitch has not produced anything. OFA Fair is CERTIFIED free of dysplasia. 

A breeder may have only a couple of OFAs on their dogs. But do you know whether their imports were a-stamped. There is NO reason to go and OFA dogs that are already a-stamped, in fact it really is not good to subject them to more x-rays. Why, their hips already passed. Also they may penn-hip. Penn-hip is said to be an even better test than the OFA as it requires specific training, and measures other parameters. But these will not show up on an OFA website.

9 litters are planned and you are expecting them to whelp and raise nine litters with an average of 10 puppies. 

Hmmm. let's see, Arwen-2, Babs - 1, Jenna-2, and Odessa 1 = 6 litters, live puppies total = 40. 40/6 = 6.67 puppies per litter. 

Ok, now let's see, in the last 12 months I bread Heidi 2 times, Babs 1 time, litters = 0. 

ERrrrgh! 

Planning nine litters, lets say they are really good with timing, and they get 8 litters on the ground. 8 x 6.6667 puppies/litter = approx. 53 puppies. 

You are using 1000/puppy, so maybe they bring in 53k per year. 

Now I spend about 20k on 10 dogs/year. 12 is not that much more, so lets just say 20k. 

53k - 20k = 33k. If the breeder is single, or married and one or two people are working on this, if one is doing this full-time, is 33k so much money to make? 

Remember that this is ALL a risk. It is far more likely that this breeder will have 5 or fewer litters all told. That would knock them down to an average of 33 puppies, and a profit of 13k. Is 13k so much money that the individual is a villian to dedicate their life to this? 

Breeding is risky. When you have puppies, EVERYONE has puppies. When people want males, you have females. Sometimes, a litter costs you a bottle of strongid, some office supplies, and first shots. Sometimes it costs you a c-section, tube feeding, and loss of some of the puppies. Sometimes you lose your bitch. 

Is 13k worth it, to risk your bitch? 

We are not in it for the money, no, but they do eat to the tune of $500+/mo. Every month. (That is just kibble -- I pretend I am not buying meat too.) They eat whether there are puppies to sell or not. 

I had seven puppies on March 2010, and 1 puppy in January, 2011 -- which went for the stud fee. I figure I can pay the food bill or the vet bill, but I am sure there are people out there saying -- look at all that profit....


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Selzer - I'm not trying to villify the breeder. I never said they were horrendous and abusive and killing little puppies. After some reading on here I don't think they're a puppy mill. I do still think they are not the most responsible of breeders. 

The truth is though, none of us know, without meeting a breeder - exactly what their practices are (and even then we may not). We don't know what they feed or do with their dogs - we can only go by what we see...in this case it was on their web site for me. We don't know what they spend on their dogs each year and nobody knows what a litter size will be - so we can only guess. 

From what I've read on here to breed you should:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html

Which all makes sense...


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