# Explain this for me?????



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In 2009 USA Seiger show, one of the entries was V Boy von Zorra, Sch1, KK1.
From his breed survey:" A dog with exceptional structure and color and a head that is out of this world. Very strong boned, very strong head, very masculine. I would think that because of the male characteristics this dog has to offer, he will be a dominant producer when used for breeding. High withers,firm back, the croup is a little bit steep but is of the correct length. He has good angulation in front and very good angulation in the rear. He moves correctly going and coming and is absolutely free. I believe this is a very good dog for the German Shepherd population in America."
This dog was rated V23 at this Seiger Show. This dog by all accounts was the most impressive dog in the Adult class in performance and was given the Performance Recognition Award in the show.
Here is what I can't fathom....1) Did we really have some thirty some dogs in that show that had better structure/movement/temperament than this dog?(If so where are these dogs?????),2) How does a dog with a Sch 1 out perform ALL the dogs with Sch3 that were placed higher than him????
Finally, was he penalized because of his color, his background, ???? Couldn't be progeny group because many many of the dogs ahead of him had no progeny group.
How do we reconcile the facts of this dog with the opinion of the judge?
I am interested in understanding the thinking of NOT placing a dog of this ilk in the VA status so that some of the staus seeking breeders would use him and bring new genetics into the show world.
ps ...If someone could post a picture of him for the discussion I would appreciate it.....Just trying to get a healthy discussion that may open up eyes to what has happened to the breed so that our show/working dogs are not the same....it can be done!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

:: BILL KULLA: Males ::




> was he penalized because of his color, his background, ????


Probably, when the black and reds dominate the judging


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

There's at least two video's of him on YouTube if anyone wants to watch him. One getting his SchH2 and the other his SchH3. 
Just go to YouTube and type in his name, they should show up on the first two pages.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

This is my breeder's dog and he's very impressive in person. I believe he was penalized because he wasn't a showline dog. I only vaguely remember looking at the results and there weren't very many workingline dogs listed.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Could it also be that at the time of the show he was only a SchH1?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I doubt it. I heard all about the protection abilities of the show dogs. Sad.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> :: BILL KULLA: Males ::
> 
> Probably, when the black and reds dominate the judging


Perhaps the other higher dogs were a little better in conformation? Would that have been a factor in the judges mind? Only the judge could state for sure why he didn't place higher.

The picture does show a somewhat roachy back but without seeing the higher dogs hard to say if that might have been a factor. He might also have been lacking in movement either side gait or coming and going.

Diificult to explain (understand?) a lot of judges placements at shows of all types.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We helped train as well as handled *Boy* for the Sieger Show AND the previous show 1 month earlier...where he placed in front of the VA1 dog. 
Boy placed V1 in that show.
The judge for the Sieger Show (2009) was a huge disappointment to many of us.....VERY politically motivated, and highly decisive towards specific kennels.

Boy was not "fairly" judged nor placed in the 2009 Sieger Show.....although he could not place in the VA group, do to the fact he was only a ScH 1 at the time.....he SHOULD have placed (honestly) higher in the V-ratings.

BTW...Boy is more impressive in person than in the picture....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In the Sept/Oct issue of the USA magasine they have pics of all the VA males......many had roached backs. As for being Sch 1, how do we reconcile his performance award over the Sch 3 dogs that were VA. I think the rules in the U.S., allow fro a Sch 1 dog to go VA. The bigger issue is the dog has structure and temperament that is proven to be exemplary, and certainly some of the VA dogs do not have exemplary temperament as witnessed by the videos of the performance aspects. So why would n't the breed take the opportunity to put this dog forward that has much needed genetics, instead of burying him down in 23rd. These kind of actions cannot be good for the breed in the long run, imo!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff....a dog must have a ScH 2 kkl1 to qualify for the VA title for the 1st time.
If the dog competes to place VA a second time...the dog must then be ScH3 kkl1...to repeat the title.
The rule is governed by the SV...and both organizations support it.

*Wanted to add...the above rule does not apply to any other show.*
ANY dog with a min of ScH 1, kkl1 can place V1....in front of ScH 2 & 3 dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Robin, did not see your response when I just wrote mine. THANKS for stating what is plainly true instead of some politically correct mumbo jumbo. This is a major problem with the breed and we need for people to show indignation and speak up about these type things if we truly love the breed. Otherwise, our silence or non rationale explanations make us complicit in the breeds downward spiral. This was a far better dog than many placed ahead of him, and before money became so prevalent in the breed ring, he would have placed very high based on merit.JMO


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff.....without any doubt, this dog was and IS better than many dogs that placed in front of him.
*I would be proud to own him....*and would respectively show him time and time again.....half the personal gratification would be to *shove* him down the throat of many corrupt comformation judges.........and breeders.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Many dogs in any show and usually only one happy owner!

Seems to be the case in any type of show, even regular AKC obedience, that I attend. And i will admit to feeling that the judges were biased or political or just stupid or blind when my dog didn't win on more than a few occasions.

Dog judging is extremely subjective in the best of cases - throw in the rest and it can be very difficult.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

So the dog was basically penalized for being from working lines?? Thats so not cool.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sounds like the dog wasn't "Penalized" for anything, just that the judge liked the other dogs more than he/she liked this particular dog. It happens in showing.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is stunning:!!!


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> he is stunning:!!!


agreed!! wow


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So is the conformation ring based on a standard or what people like??? Typical subjective mumbo jumbo to justify the actions of politics and corruption. Enablers led the breed in the direction it is in America and the same indifference to standard over these elements have led the SV in the same direction. 
@Robin, yeah I thought Sch 2 was requirement for VA, I thought they had relaxed that requirement in the American Seiger show at one point. Irony is the Sch 1 dog was a better performance dog than the two's or three's. Isn't this whole thing twisted...lol...or is it just a matter of personal preference????


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

so I don't always like WG showlines nor working lines BUT I think this boy is stunning!!! I would certainly think he could do well almost anywhere and is an excellent example of the breed!!! Wow, where is he since then?? Has he been shown or trialed more, I did read he has his Sch3 now so maybe at this yrs show he will rate MUCH higher


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff.....the particular judge at *that* Sieger Show is one of the most "influenced" judges' regarding politics and kennel names.
He rarely looks beyond a kennel name or handler......

Politics are everywhere...it's just a plain fact and we fight it constantly.....the greatest satisfaction for "people" like us, is being able to honestly fight & beat them at their own game......which means, we MUST continue to breed and train better.
You asked if it is "twisted"?....YEP.
But remember.....there ARE judges that "see" the standard, and will judge each dog against it....*we were able to prove this with the few WL dogs that we have shown, and placed extremely well with.*
We also proved it with a male of ours...(who is black & tan)....who placed SG3 in the 18-24mo class 2009 WDA Sieger Show. The judge stated..."Look at this dog, this proves that a dog not need to be black & RED in color..to be excellent".....
He also won the *Best American Bred for that class & year, then went on to win an award for bite-work at the 2010 WDA Sieger Show and placed V-7.*
Ivan von Huerta Hof.

We will be proudly showing our DDR female Izzy, at next weeks show.....along with a solid black female and a sable puppy male.......win or lose.....they are nice dogs and should be shown to the enthusiasts as very good representations of the breed.
_....I live on both sides of the fence.....WL & SL.....I love them all...and will always proudly compete with both._


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## jturcotte (Oct 6, 2010)

You would have to ask Judge ** name removed by Admin **. He is the judge that placed Boy V23 at the Sieger show but is also the same judge who placed him in front of the VA1 dog at a show just 1 month prior. It is hard to understand how he was better than the VA1 dog one day and then 30 days later he is more than 20 dogs behind the dog he just beat. It is up to the judges discretion on any given day based on the how the dogs perform but this absolutely seems excessive. Boy is an outstanding dog who was handled beautifully by Carlos Huerta and he is quickly proving to be an excellent producer. Regardless of placings I hope to see more working line owners motivated to get out to the shows with their dogs. It will be a great day when both venues (shows and trials) are equally occupied by both lines.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Trudy, though many won't believe this, the likes of different lines really doesn't enter into my evaluation of a dog. I like German Shepherds that Look and Act like German Shepherds. Don't really care what the outside color is. But I won't compromise the noble look and the utility work for some opinion of the judge. I also won't allow people to perpetrate the myth that you can't have great stuctural dogs with high aptitude for working as the breed should be. Fortunately, I have bred these type dogs long enough, and have enough hands on and academic knowledge of the breed to not let this slide by without challenging these assertions.
Robin, I bring up topics like this to encourage dialogue about these issues, so that the newer people in the breed can make informed decisions. Most rationale people who saw the things I laid out on the dog" Boy" and then heard your first hand account of this dog and what happened, and other accounts of what "probably" happened, will have the ability to recognize truth from enablement. And when that occurs then the breed will have some future people who will strive to return the breed to a total dog conformationally and working. That's important to me, I know some people don't want this, or are part of the separated lines establishment and resent my constant reference to the "whole package", but just like you journey to change things from within, I strive to change things in the thoughts of the new. We are working on the same side of the street and for that I salute you.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I was at this show and was impressed with Boy. So impressed that I've paid attention to him over the past year and a half and now own a son from him. I do not care whether he is VA or V-rated in SchH3 at nationals or anything like that. I've seen the dog show, work, and just be a dog, and I like him. I know what I like in a dog, I know what I can live with (sometimes that involves a bit of compromise!) and a dog like Boy is "it".

I think the reason he placed at the back of the pack is really a combination of things. For one, yes at the time he was SchH1 and not SchH3. He obviously outperformed most if not all of the dogs there. I say "obviously" because IF you were there, then you would know what I mean. Anyone with just one eye and half a brain will agree. I'm not trying to pick a show vs. working fight (I own, train, title, and show BOTH). But, a title is still a title. Second, he's on the larger side. This may have hurt him. I can't remember if that judge was picky on size, I seem to remember being told that he was. Third, yes, the politics of kennels, lines, handlers, coat color.... yes it cannot be avoided.

What I tell people is that they should not overlook the fact that Boy has defeated in conformation a VA1 show line. He has defeated a now VA1 dog in that dog's venue. How many working line dogs have defeated a VA1 dog in the working class? IMO this is more significant than his placement at a very politically motivated show that ended up being a joke to plenty of people.

I would not have expected Boy to earn VA at that show, though I was disappointed with his placement overall, however I did not stay for the confo ring portion, so I'm not really sure how he actually showed. With Carlos handling him though I can only assume he was shown to the best of his abilities. He is still young IMO, was young then. Personally I feel judges these days are awarding VA ratings way too young. Two year olds with VAs?!?! How are we really assessing their progeny? I don't understand the politics at all, or why judges feel obligated to give *certain* dogs VA ratings.

Like Robin said, overall the 2009 show was very disappointing for me overall. Not just b/c of Boy or where my own dog placed. Pretty much everything about it was a disappointment for me (politics, ridiculous placings that were completely counter to how dogs had been showing/placing at shows leading up, tons of favoritism of kennels and handlers, crappy venue, just a lot of weird stuff going on). I haven't entered or even attended a Sieger Show since then. 

I hope Bill and Jen will bring Boy to the show in Indy. Any one else out there with Boy progeny, we have a year to get our paperwork in order and I hope to present a progeny group. Why not?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My pics of Boy from the 2009 SS


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Some Boy progeny


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I get where your coming from Cliff. The critique doesnt explain the placeing. I went to a conformation show yesterday. First time. Show line dog placed first, working lines behind. I to dont understand where this breed is going. I will continue to keep my working lines. To me, they are what a true German Shepherd was developed to be. I can look at pictures of GSD's from 50 years ago, and see my dog in them.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look, there are some things that are not rationally explained unless by ignorance, complicity, or corruption. This is a dog that should absolutely be used and promoted in the show world by "show" breeders. He absolutely brings strength to areas of the breed that the show world has fallen behind in. His genetics bring hybrid vigor and genetic diversity to the show world. In my opinion, only a backyard breeder or a breeder interested first and foremost in profit, would deny this. This unexplainable example of the national breed show, where opportunity for encouraging the breed to move in a direction to compensate continued manifest weaknesses in many of the show dogs, (As Capt. Stephanitz did on several occaisons), was passed over. This is sad, and even sadder is the so called apologists who feel "Oh well, this is the way shows are". Tsk Tsk!! JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Would you expect a WL dog to place better at a conformation show that SL dogs who were bred for the show ring? As long as they have sound minds I would expect them to beat most WL in the conformation ring as i would expect the WL dogs to generally do better on the ScH field.

Kind of like what are they bred for?

Would you expect the average WL litters to produce as many dogs suitable for seeing eye work as lines that have been bred for many generations for this kind of work?

As to shows in general, people should realize that judging is extremely subjective and depends a lot on what the judge that day favors. If you are going to show, better get used to it!

In fact, one of the obvious and well known reasons that one would hire a pro handler is to gain this knowledge of what judges will your dog have a good chance to win.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> As to shows in general, people should realize that judging is extremely subjective and depends a lot on what the judge that day favors.





jturcotte said:


> You would have to ask Judge ** name removed by Admin **. He is the judge that placed Boy V23 at the Sieger show but is also the same judge who placed him in front of the VA1 dog at a show just 1 month prior. It is hard to understand how he was better than the VA1 dog one day and then 30 days later he is more than 20 dogs behind the dog he just beat. It is up to the judges discretion on any given day based on the how the dogs perform but this absolutely seems excessive.


opcorn:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

IMO, many who purchase working lines have no interest in conformation showing...so the representation in the ring is not there. They'd rather compete with their dogs doing sportwork, herding or in service. Though I agree, the WL's need to represent more in conformation, it would be a breath of fresh air to some judges. 

And the way the judging is already reputed to be as far as kennel preferences, etc, why waste the time and money to just be placed at the bottom. I think it is sad that you have to choose what shows to enter according to who is doing the judging...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sometimes dogs just plain show better on some days than others - just like athletes sometimes play better on some days than others (maybe also with different referees as well!).

Would anyone really expect two different judges to place the exact same group of dogs in exactly the same order in two different shows (even a day apart)?

I will bet, based on my experience, that even the same judge could not and would not do this!!!

Throw in a different judge and esp. a different group of dogs in the class and the different performance of each dog and WHA-LA!!! a different placement.

To be expected in any judging.

If you don't like how a judge places your dog - don't show under that judge any more. That is why they publish the judges name ahead of the show - so people can vote with their entries about what they think of the judge.

OTOH, I know the feeling about judging results. I have whined to anyone who would listen about how stupid the judge was when MY beautiful and almost perfect specimen of the GSD breed did not do as well as I thought he should do.

My sympathy to all the owners whose dogs did not do as well as they should have.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There is some amount of campaigning a top dog that must be done. A WL dog, or ANY dog, cannot expect to show up at the Sieger Show and go VA that day. This is just a general statement, not referring to Boy (not saying that he should have gone VA). We make it a priority to show our dogs under judges that we know will be judging larger events in the future, and make it a priority for progeny of VA-worthy dogs to be presented as well. If I want a better placement, that's my strategy, show or working line dog. Luckily, I have never felt I did not get the rating I deserved. My dogs have always received the ratings I've wanted and expected. Competed for higher placement is one thing but it has not been much of a priority for me lately so I am not concerned with the number, just the letter. For most people, there isn't enough time and money to campaign dogs. I haven't shown my SHOW line dog in a WDA or USA event in over a year now. For me, training and competing is a priority because I feel there are more tangible results and the onus is on myself, not whether the judging or politics happens to go in my favor on that day or whether I've paid more for my handling than I did for my dog.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We have the same problem with the SL's......the unethical judges.
We compete in the Conformation venues...but never just *"expect"* to do well...we must work *very* *hard *to do well. We are a small "kennel" (I hate that term)...have no politics and actually work for a living. (we don't live off our dogs).
We must *breed better* and* train harder*, than any of the larger, policially correct, financially superior kennels.....to just be able to "compete" on a somewhat equal ground.....
There are WL's that are wonderful examples of this breed's standard...and they should be brought to compete. If more judges would just simply "judge the dog"...instead of "the handler or kennel name".....the breed would be in a better place.
We will ALWAYS bring a good dog to the venues, because that is what we do....no matter if it's WL or SL.
Boy...is a very nice dog period.....he should be used by both Sl's and WL breeders.
Jen & Bill know that we plan on using him in the near future...we have always recommended him for breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I only expect the judge to judge and place the individual dogs according to merit. At a National event historically in the motherland, the Seiger show was an avenue for the Head Judge to place the dogs according to merit and what the breed needs to improve upon. I don't expect a Judge to even consider whether it is working or show lines. That mentality is part of the problem. Because, ideally, it should be about an objective evaluation of the dog to highlight the best specimens in the breed....not about personal preferences so that people have to shop around for a favorable judge to their dog.. If this is what we expect and condone....(personal preferences), then there is no need for a standard to define what the breed should be...JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I only expect the judge to judge and place the individual dogs according to merit. At a National event historically in the motherland, the Seiger show was an avenue for the Head Judge to place the dogs according to merit and what the breed needs to improve upon. I don't expect a Judge to even consider whether it is working or show lines. That mentality is part of the problem. Because, ideally, it should be about an objective evaluation of the dog to highlight the best specimens in the breed....not about personal preferences so that people have to shop around for a favorable judge to their dog.. If this is what we expect and condone....(personal preferences), then there is no need for a standard to define what the breed should be...JMO


Cliffson1 - I imagine that you have watched many shows with someone you know well who also is obviously very knowledgable about GSD's. Do you think that you and your friend would rank the dogs in exactly the same order and critique them exactly the same? (I wouldn't assume so!)
.
And yet I assume that you would both use the same standard to evaluate all of the dogs before you on this day. 

Would you agree so far, or have I made a mistake?

Further, if you were to rank (judge!) the exact same group (let's say 30-40 dogs) the very next day, what would you say the odds are that you and your friend would come up with the exact ranking order that you each had the day before?

Something to consider before we unleash a torrent of criticism of all judges, do you think?

As far as subjectivity - how would you consider two faults - one dog has one of them and another dog has the other - other than that they are about even. Which fault would consider the more serious - i.e. a tooth problem in one and a little shoulder layback in the other or maybe an ear set versus a tail set problem. Wouldn't you agree that there really is a degree of subjectivity in the above evaluation?


Now are there some poor judges (for a lot of rerasons) - of course. fact of life when you deal with people.

Just a few personal thoughts about judging.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> And when that occurs then the breed will have some future people who will strive to return the breed to a total dog conformationally and working. That's important to me, I know some people don't want this, or are part of the separated lines establishment and resent my constant reference to the "whole package",



Is the show ring wanting to breed away from the conformation that has taken decades to get where it is today ? it seems WLs have to come closer to meeting the standards for exaggeration to get high show ratings rather than the other way around, going by the resemblence of _some_ dogs (not all) to that particular show type.


It might help the SLs to have more diversity but how will conformation showing help WLs ?

In other words what can be done to change the mentality that the type of structure is acceptable ? rather than pushing for more working lines to appear or be accepted in the conformation shows at a high level where they are more likely to have to be bred for a certain type to have any chance of competing against showlines. Unless of course you consider if a good thing for Working lines to resemble Showlines ?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Something about dogs being bred for a particular competiton venue....something about politics and livelihood....something about judging being for a particular "type"....

I don't know that we can talk about "the breed" any longer. There is such a divergence of characteristics at this time isn't there? Between some types a virtual chasm has grown. 

I don't go by judging as far as the dogs merit! Wow?! I do judge the judging though! One could be lead astray unless they become their own "judge" with a depth of understanding of the dogs. There is this obvious multiplicity in "the breed" now. I see newcomers more than a bit baffled by it all the time.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Codmaster....I don't disagree with your premise about reasonably knowledgable people can look at something and see them differently. SURPRISE!! I also know that on different days different dogs are up or down. SURPRISE AGAIN! But that is not my point and I don't expect you to acknowledge my point though I think you understand. Money, politics, corruption, and personal preference are not to be expected....they have nothing to do with the merit of the dog! Capece! 
As for torrid of criticism, Codmaster, you are talking to a person who has talked to breed judges before on many occaisons. On this side of the pond you have Judges who have no more knowledge about the breed then what they have learned as a handler/breeder in the show ring. They are bereft with all types of misinformation and opinions about what constitutes a working dog in reality. Some don't even think the dog should be bred to work, or understand that they should be looking to promote the physical/mental expression that will fulfill this aspect. On the other side of the pond the politics and corruption is so acute that the Euro controls placements. There was another person on another forum that used to come on and rant about the bribery/money influence at these top German shows. The enablers would come out in force attaching him and conviently sidestepping his allegations. He then brought specific instances of manipulation (with proof) and the enablers went bonkers against him. Well, it seems that a big scandal has just been uncovered with top Judges and money and placements and investigations, yadda yadda. All of the mouthy enablers have crawled in holes because they look like fools. 
I don't really care who wins the show, that is not my point.....clearly inferior dogs that don't represent the essence of the breed are put up in these shows over BETTER dogs because of Kennels, money, and personal preferences. Dogs who perform their duties in the show with anxiety and worried looks should be at the end of the line....this doesn't happen....no Codmaster....I criticize judges that make decisions that are really not defensable or are corrupt. I don't expect you to understand this any more than standing on the sidelines I see dogs straining to run out of the ring or shying from the Judges approach and they get put up!!!!HUH!!! But like you said, different people can have different values on faults within the breed. 
We'll just agree to disagree.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Seriously if a judge doesn't make the decision that you think he should make he is corupt? Not sure what you are so upset about the dog got a very good critique-but I don't understand showing. If you have more knowledge than the judge why not become one-especially since you are so unhappy with their lack of knowledge


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I've been saying for years - greed, politics, and money have ruined this breed. So much to the point that many knowledgeable and good breeders have been displaced and no longer participate. Why should they? If the kennel name is wrong and the judge hasn't gained any benefits from you, where do you think the dog will rank? Sad but true. 
And what are the restrictive criteria to become a judge? It has nothing to do with an ability/skill/knowledge to "see" what is inside of a dog. Judges see what they want to see. And they seem to see best when they "know" a kennel/breeder for some reason. JMO
Brackett said a long time ago - judges need to look more at other things than just what you see. Because if some of these winning dogs are to the standard, "we's in heap of trouble."


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Holland....You're right you are not sure with what I am upset about.
I just like those "perfect" dogs that seem to fall into my lap luckily. Don't expect you to understand....as for my knowledge....I'll let others determine that for me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

IMO that particular show was still a joke in many ways with or without Boy's placement, not that it's not important, but people seem to think we're all just sitting here for years stewing over one dog's placement. No, that was just the icing on the cake (or, the salt in the wound?)....


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Holland....You're right you are not sure with what I am upset about.
> I just like those "perfect" dogs that seem to fall into my lap luckily. Don't expect you to understand....as for my knowledge....I'll let others determine that for me.


 
Oh good I like being right so glad you don't have any expectations either


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you have an opinion on the placement of the dog and/or how that show was conducted?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> In the Sept/Oct issue of the USA magasine they have pics of all the VA males......many had roached backs. As for being Sch 1, how do we reconcile his performance award over the Sch 3 dogs that were VA. I think the rules in the U.S., allow fro a Sch 1 dog to go VA. The bigger issue is the dog has structure and temperament that is proven to be exemplary, and certainly some of the VA dogs do not have exemplary temperament as witnessed by the videos of the performance aspects. So why would n't the breed take the opportunity to put this dog forward that has much needed genetics, instead of burying him down in 23rd. These kind of actions cannot be good for the breed in the long run, imo!


It is situations, politics like this that makes breed-loving breeders get out of the show business and it hurts the breed. Not every breeder has the resources to pursue the show ring against such odds.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Complaints about judging results have been common since I started with GSD's some 40 years or so ago. Same today!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My complaint about the judging is not because of a personal vendetta, because I got out of showing dogs in the early seventies with the Lance craze starting and plainly seeing the direction the breed was going. Thirty- five years later ...voila....a breed that is in demand nowhere else in the world because of the direction that was taken. I care about the well being of the breed and affording the newer people in the breed the knowledge that the breed was not always the way it is depicted in certain venues, both show and working.(Some of my critics lose their tongue when I criticize where the extremes of sport breeding has gone. But I expect that because hypocrisy has never been in short demand in this breed). 
The bottom line is people are going to go to breed shows and what they will see will either resonate with what they have heard from me or they will see rationale explanations to what I have problems with. The truth will either discredit me or enhance me....and my detractors or myself have no control over this. People will make their minds up based on what is presented to them. If I am so offbase I will look like a buffoon in my remarks, and the breed will continue its merry way, but I feel an obligation to present what I think the breed should represent and how people can maintain that type of dog. Peace out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What bothers me is that any progress that is made during the year seems to be erased by the Sieger Shows. Look at the thread on here with the Wolfstraum dogs and other working lines all doing VERY well at a recent show, lots of great ratings, first places, and KKL1s. I often see working lines at the shows I attend, and I feel they are not being knocked placements because of their line/type or color. But then we get to the Sieger Show and it never fails. To the back of the pack they go, regardless of how well they've been placing leading up to that day. Look at the BSZS too. Javir WAAAAY down the list despite many of the top dogs having known health and/or temperament issues and being "gifted" their performance test rating. 

Which makes me think...why do we even have those performance test since they obviously don't mean squat?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Where there are people there is politics, to try to change that is like the ram just butting that dam. Frustration reigns in every area of expertise where the those with the knowledge go against those with the power. World without end, amen.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

If we don't "try" to make a difference...then for sure...no difference will be made.
That is my personal agenda....


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

If you don't play,you can't win.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing that I find just totally "fascinating" is this 'Gradual Improvement Plan" that USA is taking part in. A couple of months ago, I was reading the Message from the USA Director of Judges warning the Sieger Show participants that they are going to "raise the bar" a bit more this year. When they came up with that hair brained idea I thought it was about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Why? Because what is the end result? What is being encouraged besides compromising principles? Do these people who came up with that idea think the dogs who win during the "improvement period" are not going to be bred? When is the end of the "improvement period? Five years? Ten? Then what? It will still come down to drawing a line because people will keep showing up with weak dogs until that line is drawn. 

My guess is that the dogs in five years might be really closely related to the ones being shown now. I think what is being accomplished is that the Director of Judges simply loses all credibility. As we have all said before, when a SchH 3 dog is presented that can barely bite, what kind of improvement is needed? IMO, the improvement comes if he isn't entered in the first place. THAT would be the biggest improvement.

In my opinion, you wipe out the entire entry and the next year, people will show up with dogs who are worthy of being there. Might be all working line dogs and SLs who can work and what is wrong with that? IF I were inclined to involve myself in that venue, I would be lobbying the powers that be to end this nonsense and get on with being real. When the DOJ is telling people the dogs he gave pronounced ratings to were actually sufficient or worse, what is the point? I mean is it just me that thinks this method of improvement is simply a delay tactic? I am not seeing any improvements, gradual or not. Only difference is, people are being encouraged not to video tape.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Very good point, Robin!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If it were up to me, I would set clear and tangible standards. For example, only dogs who have passed a SchH3 at a regional or national event that year are eligible for VA ratings. Only dogs that have passed a SchH3 that year are eligible for V ratings. I cannot see how us show line folk who insist the dogs ARE being trained and can work could disagree. Dogs who may have had some rushed training and title at some point never to really work/train again can go no better than SG (and an SG is not "bad", still perfectly acceptable for KKL1).

I have seen no improvement either. All I have seen is the "courage test" be even further watered down to the point where the way it is now, I refuse to exhibit my dogs because they will think it is a joke and look as foolish as the attacks and drives now being done for the test. It is expensive enough to enter and show a dog at a national event. I will not do so when I am already embarrassed by other exhibitors and how this "test" is conducted. I'd rather fly somewhere for a weekend of training with a half-decent helper.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

*Love the Thread Cliff!!*

I have not posted in a while I just sit back now with myopcorn: , I had to add to this one, thanks again for the great Thread!!

Here are a few quotes from a few posts that *I* places back in April 2009, on German Shepherd World.



> I just love this one the VA2 Dog was places behind the V23 Dog a few weeks ago, at the the OG Edgerton Club show and Breed Survey in WI.





> It's just a Dog Show, the dog with the best performance on Saturday.
> Ends up at the back of the line in the second ring, the dog that was behind him
> just a few week ago is 2nd in front in the main ring. It's just a Dog Show right.





> They just had the chance to put up a dog to steer the breed toward what Max wanted from the breed.
> No one is saying he should go VA, but at the back of the line in the 2nd ring.
> When the VA2 Dog was placed behind him a few weeks ago at the the OG Edgerton Club show.
> A quote from Boy's critique from that show, Herr Grewe said.
> *"I want to make a point here that by moving this dog up is to show it is not true we punish the dog from working class because if the dog has a good structure then that's the place he will get."*





> Yes, Boy only has his SchH 1 NOW, was imported as a green dog at 18 months old.
> Got his BH in Nov, 2008, then the next day his SchH1 with a High in Tracking & Protection!!!
> And can NOW "V" in the show-ring, just thinking objectively here
> Now Xbox is a new VA, what has he produced?
> And he should also have excellent working abilities /ethnics, I guess he has a few "V"s in his working degree.


All Quotes taken from Thread ~ *11 VA's awarded to males at USA SS..why..how?*
**Please do not link to other boards. People can get it in PM if interested. Thank you. Admin**

P.S. I got booted & placed in the Out House as well over my views :wild:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> Which makes me think...why do we even have those performance test since they obviously don't mean squat?


Because people have bought into the fallacy that the SV system is perfect and now they are so invested that they can't get out without saying that they have been wrong for decades.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it's even worse than that, they don't see any reason to need to get out or change, they really think that a dog who pauses before a long bite and slides off the sleeve during a drive is a good, breedworthy dog. Look at the videos of the Sieger shows. Instead of being embarrassed, people get all defensive about it.


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