# Puppy attacked older dog



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

So this is a complicated situation, which I am largely to blame for. I'm mostly looking for any insights on what actually is going on.

In background, we got our pup at around 9 weeks and he is now 17. We have a 13-year golden who is extremely dog aggressive; in fact, it was rejected by her previous placement because it was attacking their small dogs. We got her and she has been a great dog for us, as long as we avoided other dogs. 

Bad situation, I know. Our solution has been to keep them apart. They are almost always on the other side of a door. The golden often barks at the pup when we are passing by. One time, she got a free shot and bit the pup, but he shook it off quickly.

The GSD pup has just completed a 6-week puppy obedience course. He was the star student, very attentive and focused, and mostly ignored the other dogs once we got a spray gun and got his barking under control. Recently he has been going to the dog park and gets along well. Sometimes he will pester a dog and I will redirect him. Sometimes there is another dog that pesters him, and I get him to go to a different part of the park. But in general, he seems to have decent social skills, doesn't growl, mostly just wrestles and plays and runs. When I get the ball and pull him to the side, he's happy to just hang out with me.

So gradually, I have been trying to get the dogs closer. We have spent the last few days with my wife with the golden behind a kiddie gate. The pup doesn't show much interest in the older dog. I'm often cooking with him, and he'll sit there in front of the refrigerator ignoring the golden, who stares at him. 

Today I decided to take them for a walk together. My reasoning was that since the golden obeys me and the pup seems to get along fine with dogs, that a quick, brisk walk, maybe only down to the end of the block and back, might be a way to get them working together and used to each other.

Well, that didn't work out so well.

What happened, was that when my wife brought the golden and I took the leash, that my pup just went wild, lunging and snapping and seemingly trying to attack the golden. The golden cringed away, went to the end of the leash, and started sniffing the ground. I had to use the leash to keep the pup away, and since he's 40 lbs now, that wasn't really so easy. I had my wife spray him when he barked, but he just ignored that. He only settled down once we took the golden away.

The golden acted as I'd hoped she would, but the pup just went off! Again, I was surprised because the puppy has met dozens of dogs and never fought any of them. Rough play, yes.

So obviously I jumped the gun here. What I'm interested in is thought as to how to describe this behavior. Was the pup being territorial (we were outside in front of the house)? Aggressive? Was it fear aggression based on the bad vibes and previous experience with the golden?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's hard to say without actually being there.My guess would be a combination of excitement,fear,and being restrained.Walking them together is a good idea but start out at a good distance from each other,each of you with one dog.Reward each dog with calm praise and treats whenever they glance up at you.They need to learn what behavior you expect when they are in proximity to each other.Don't rush the process.Southend Dog Training has a lot of videos that address this very issue.He's on Facebook too working with problem dogs along with the owners going through the process,not just before/after clips.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I just want to know why you are spraying the pup and with what? And why you would get a pup with a 13 year old aggressive dog already in your home?


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I was curious, too about the spraying. Do you at least mark the behavior prior to a correction like this? Correcting when a dog is in a certain state of mind- very amped up for example- can have some pretty bad blowback, unless you really know your stuff.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Thanks, Terri. I'll check that out.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I just want to know why you are spraying the pup and with what? And why you would get a pup with a 13 year old aggressive dog already in your home?


My puppy class trainer taught me to spray him in the mouth with 50% Grannick's when he barked at other dogs in the class. It only took about twice to stop the behavior, and he was the best and most focused in the class for the next six weeks. His habit of barking at random dogs we'd see in the park stopped completely. Nor does he bark inappropriately at the dog park.

When he barked at the Golden, I had my wife spray him, but he didn't even notice.

As far as why we got him, we wanted him. I knew that it was risky. In any case, that is in the past. I have to deal with the situation.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Saco said:


> I was curious, too about the spraying. Do you at least mark the behavior prior to a correction like this? Correcting when a dog is in a certain state of mind- very amped up for example- can have some pretty bad blowback, unless you really know your stuff.


No, I don't really mark him for barking. The advice was to spray so he associates the unpleasant taste with the act of barking. In fact, I was taught that ideally the dog wouldn't even know the owner was the person doing it, so there would be lesser bad feelings on the dog's part. 

In my experience, yelling at a barking dog is ineffective. For a while, I experimented with teaching him to bark with the intention of being able to control it that way, but my trainer doesn't like that idea.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What I would do --- keep the dogs separated. That's it. I'd cut out dog parks, too. Socialize with known friendly dogs if you want but not your golden. The problem is the golden and you don't want that transferring to your pup. (all of which you knew already --- but that's so often the case - we know but we need other people to tell us.)


.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The act of stopping a behavior is one thing, fixing the problem is another. That is why I asked. I have had great success with using a speak command to control unwanted barking, and some dogs are more vocal then others. It is completely normal for young pups to bark at other dogs. They do it out of fear, excitement and in play. Stopping the barking is fine, until it's not. You could easily create a dog that acts without warning, or as you just discovered, aversion methods work up until they don't. Given the right stimulus a strong dog will push past an aversion that is now an annoyance that adds to the problem.
As far as why? It really doesn't matter at this point but I suspect it was a combo of fear and frustration, amplified by being sprayed in the face.
I wouldn't let these two spend any time together for the very simple reason that whether it seems so or not your pup is absorbing the behavior and energy that your old guy is throwing around. 
And you are correct yelling doesn't work, but it doesn't work for any reason on anything.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

CactusWren said:


> No, I don't really mark him for barking. The advice was to spray so he associates the unpleasant taste with the act of barking. In fact, I was taught that ideally the dog wouldn't even know the owner was the person doing it, so there would be lesser bad feelings on the dog's part.
> 
> In my experience, yelling at a barking dog is ineffective. For a while, I experimented with teaching him to bark with the intention of being able to control it that way, but my trainer doesn't like that idea.


I believe Saco was alluding to timing errors.When dogs get really really upset they become so completely focused that a correction is useless at that point.It will many times amp them up more.The correction should interrupt the behavior before it starts,then show him what behavior you DO want.Sounds easy when it's writtenIt should all happen in a split second.Hopefully your trainer can help.When you can see it done and then put it into practice it becomes very natural.Best of luck and update as you progress!


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> The act of stopping a behavior is one thing, fixing the problem is another. That is why I asked. I have had great success with using a speak command to control unwanted barking, and some dogs are more vocal then others. It is completely normal for young pups to bark at other dogs. They do it out of fear, excitement and in play. Stopping the barking is fine, until it's not. You could easily create a dog that acts without warning, or as you just discovered, aversion methods work up until they don't. Given the right stimulus a strong dog will push past an aversion that is now an annoyance that adds to the problem.
> As far as why? It really doesn't matter at this point but I suspect it was a combo of fear and frustration, amplified by being sprayed in the face.
> I wouldn't let these two spend any time together for the very simple reason that whether it seems so or not your pup is absorbing the behavior and energy that your old guy is throwing around.
> And you are correct yelling doesn't work, but it doesn't work for any reason on anything.


Thanks, Sabis mom. Your reasoning makes great sense to me. I will reconsider working on him with that speak command.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CactusWren said:


> We have a 13-year golden who is extremely dog aggressive; in fact, it was rejected by her previous placement because it was attacking their small dogs. We got her and she has been a great dog for us, as long as we avoided other dogs.
> 
> Is the Golden dog aggressive or is the Golden small dog aggressive or did somebody improperly introduce the Golden to their pack?
> 
> ...


Once again, if you are worried about dog fights, rough play will eventually start one. Many people say that their dogs rough play but from what I have seen, most dogs do not. The owners just aren't familiar with what rough play really looks like.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> I believe Saco was alluding to timing errors.When dogs get really really upset they become so completely focused that a correction is useless at that point.It will many times amp them up more.The correction should interrupt the behavior before it starts,then show him what behavior you DO want.Sounds easy when it's writtenIt should all happen in a split second.Hopefully your trainer can help.When you can see it done and then put it into practice it becomes very natural.Best of luck and update as you progress!


I see. In the past, the spray did seem stop him from barking at nearly every dog he saw, and I only administered it once he was already barking. Then he stopped and licked it and looked uncomfortable. It seemed to have given him the message in the context of the puppy classes and walking around. 

This was an entirely different order of situation (I now see) and it was completely ineffective. Although it didn't obviously exacerbate things, he pretty much went from 0-60 in a second and stayed at 60!).


----------

