# is there any way to fix the incorrect "Down" command?



## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

iv'e just learnt that the way i thought my dog the "Down" command was the incorrect way, is there any way to fix it on an almost 2 year old dog?
now i know the right method, but my dog does not understand what i want from him.
he's just moving backwards licks my hand and waiting for the food to come out....
:help::help::help:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. Try teaching him while moving with a high value lure. I had to use a different command when I retaught down.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

I would be interesting in hearing the "incorrect" method compared to the "right" method.

If its not broke don't fix it.


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Yes. Try teaching him while moving with a high value lure. I had to use a different command when I retaught down.


Such as?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you have a video? How is he wrong? He's not actually downing?


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

I am guessing that the op taught the dog to down from the sitting position and now wants the 'fold back' down from a standing position.

I had the same problem a few years ago and Jax08 is absolutely right about giving it a new cue word. Different behavior needs a different command.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> Such as?


I use Platz. You can use any word you want in whatever language you want. Just be consistent per the rules.

When I was reteaching the down so that she collapsed instead of sitting first (which I'm assuming is the same issue you are having) I started her in a heal and when she was in motion, lured her into the down position. It seems easier for them to "get" the motion of collapsing when they are moving. It is a bit awkward for the person.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Oooops, the link didn't work. Sorry!

Fold Back Down - WAY Back Down - YouTube

I use platz also.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

A trick is to always feed treats on the ground when the dog does lie down so he won't stand up straight away. Then he starts to realize he gets his reward on the ground and will be more comfortable. 

If you have some food in your hand and close your hand and hold it towards the ground, the dog will probably try to lie down to get it. The only other options is to sit or stand. Have patience and the dog will lie down. Say good boy and drop the food onto the ground under his nose.

After a while you can add a command like 'down' or whatever you want to use. 

Then it's like down, feed a bit. If he stands back up, say down and drop some food when he lies down again. Step away and go back and reward and increase distance a bit. Repeat this and after a while add a sit or stand moving your hand with the food as a guide. Until the commands and the response from the dog is strong, don't bother putting sequences of commands or it can confuse the dog. I suppose it depends on the dog and trainer.

Generally this must be done hundreds of times to achieve a good response from the dog. Also practice these commands when training with a ball or tug. Don't turn it into a bore for the dog or it will lose interest. When you start to use obedience to wind up the dog then it will have a better response to the commands. The dog will redirect frustration to get what it wants, ie tug, or chasing the ball. You have to find what the dog really likes and then with hold it until he preforms as you like. It may be food but generally other options work better.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Great video, Karla!!


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Yes. Try teaching him while moving with a high value lure. I had to use a different command when I retaught down.


I meant what kind of treats you lure him with.


Liesje said:


> Do you have a video? How is he wrong? He's not actually downing?


He's wrong because his butt goes down before his shoulders.(Which happens because you lure him forward instead of inward)
and the right way is shoulders before butt.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Training "Sit" simply hold his collar with your right hand at the top and press softly his pelvis down. From sitting position to down position: keep your right hand on his pelvis and pull him slowly by his collar down by your left. It would be better if you have a tiny piece of treat in your right fist, drop it whn your dog is in the down position already. A short soft jerk on the collar forward would bring him from down or sitting position to standing position. Verbal command always should be prior to any physical correction on your side. Train him to eat his meal in the down position. It is good for GSD - saves the risk of developing intervertebral osteochondrosis of the neck.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Since this is in the SchH forum I assume you want a very fast, correct down that can also be done in motion? My puppies do lazy downs for food, just to get the concept, but once they are older and we are doing more formal obedience, I use a "nepopo" type method to train the down in motion. That's a Bart Bellon gimmick but really I just use -R to get the fast, correct down and then *immediately* praise and reward it. I don't train with e-collars so I use a prong, or even a flat or fursaver would work.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I teach it via lure-reward similar to what was shown in that youtube.

It's not hard, usually takes a couple of days if the dog isn't fluent with clicker training.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> I meant what kind of treats you lure him with.



It depends on your dog. What is high value to Jax might be garbage to him. Find his favorite treat and use that for a lure. Reward with his favorite toy if he's toy driven.

With Jax, it also depends on what she is doing. I used dried meats for tracking, switched to raw tripe this morning. 100x better on the tripe in tracking. 

Know your dog. You'll figure it out.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

in the youtube video, how does the dog know to go backwards and then down if you're just standing there holding the treat without any hand movements or audible cues?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> in the youtube video, how does the dog know to go backwards and then down if you're just standing there holding the treat without any hand movements or audible cues?


The lure is moving. The hand movements aren't exaggerated, but the movement is there.

The success of lure-reward depends on your skill in positioning the lure and holding it steady until the dog offers the desired movement or at least the beginnings of the movement, at which time you mark (click) and reward.

Exactly where you put the lure and how you move it depends on the dog's responses (some are more sensitive to spatial pressure than others; some dogs respond to the lure by moving forward into it, others tend to move slightly away), so you have to spend a little time observing your dog and getting to know its responses before you can have maximum success drawing them out with a lure or target. But once you've established that basic fluency it tends to go very, very fast and you can get some pretty sophisticated movements, so IMO it's an investment well worth making.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

maybe im not understanding it right but how does the dog connect going backwards to going into a down with just a closed fist?


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

When dogs learn a behavior with clicker training, they will offer the behavior because that is what has earned the reward. So, the dog has learned through repetition what the owner wants and the dog can perform without any verbal cue or luring.

The mop on the floor would be enough for the dog to know what the owner wants. Also, in clicker training, you get the dog doing the desired behavior before you give it a cue word.

That's what cool about clicker training. Dogs will go through their repertoire of behaviors trying to figure out how to get a click and a treat.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The walking backwards is harder than teaching the dog to lie down imo.

Generally sliced hot dogs are handy for training as the dog can swallow them straight and they seem to like them.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Dogs are very aware of our body language. When she was teaching her dog to move backward, it was with a closed fist. She kept her fist closed when she taught it the fold back down. I believe she also kept the treats in her closed fist. When your dog learns the behavior you can start to fade out the extra cues you used to teach the behavior.

The dog has learned to associate doing a fold back down when it sees the closed fist.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I did not teach platz like that video shows. That seems an awful lot of work to get to where you want to go. You want the dog to collapse, not sit and down, not back up and down...collapse

Put the down in a heal and as you move forward, drop your lure at ground level and move it forward slightly. The dog should collapse. I found it easier to have the dog in a forward motion rather than standing still.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I did not teach platz like that video shows. That seems an awful lot of work to get to where you want to go.


Well, that depends where you want to go. 

I did teach my dogs to walk backwards (and to Bow on cue) but not as part of training a Down. You're absolutely correct that you don't _need_ those behaviors to get a fold-back Down.

Backwards walking does come in handy if you plan to compete in Rally (which has two separate backwards heeling exercises, one with the dog on the handler's left side in Heel position and the other with the dog facing the handler in Front position), though. It's also highly useful as foundation for pivot work and rear-end awareness generally.

I know some competition obedience people who train it to help with a Down out of motion, too -- if you have a _really_ fast dog, then a Drop On Recall can result in the dog sliding across the mats right into your feet, because the dog hasn't checked its forward momentum before going into the Down. That will cost points, potentially a lot of points under some judges, even though the dog did the drop when it was supposed to. So if you have that kind of a dog, then it can be useful to teach a sudden halt even to the point of inducing slight backwards momentum before getting the Down.

So... do you _need_ it? No. But could it be useful? Sure. Depends on what you want to do, and what your goals are in that sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hopefully the OP will elaborate. It was posted in the Schutzhund forum, not obedience, so I assumed he was looking for a down-in-motion kind of platz.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Hopefully the OP will elaborate. It was posted in the Schutzhund forum, not obedience, so I assumed he was looking for a down-in-motion kind of platz.


I'm assuming that as well.



R-a-m-b-o said:


> I meant what kind of treats you lure him with.
> 
> *He's wrong because his butt goes down before his shoulders.(Which happens because you lure him forward instead of inward)
> and the right way is shoulders before butt.*


He did elaborate. I wish some of our top Sch people on the forum would respond to this. Perhaps with video. I don't have time to make one with Jax right now.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would just make it happen, then reward it. "Platz" means elbows, butt, heck even chin if you want down when you say it and stay down until told otherwise. It's usually not an issue in SchH because other than setting a dog up in a long down where the dog is already sitting anyway, the down is done in motion. There's no time to sit and down so most train the dog to down from standing or from being in motion to begin with so that is what I would do here. I would not use fists or any sort of hand cue or lure since it just creates more work fading that out.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm with Jax08. I teach while moving forward then move the lure down and back causing the dog to fold elbows first into the ground. If needed I will apply slight pressure back and down on the dogs nose. 

I also agree teaching the walk backwards part seems like a hard way to accomplish this. I also know that a dog that "collects" before downing loses points because the down was not immediate. 

I will see if I have a video.


Edit: This isn't the teaching part, but the end result. http://youtu.be/zrD9R-z78pI


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> It was posted in the Schutzhund forum, not obedience, so I assumed he was looking for a down-in-motion kind of platz.


It's the same basic movement, though, regardless of which sport you're doing it for. If he'd asked about a bark and hold, then there'd be nothing in the world of competition obedience that'd be remotely similar... but a moving Down is a moving Down, and there are lots of ways to get it.

I had a competition obedience instructor who taught it the way you described, with a prong collar and physical manipulation of the dog. I've had others who taught it with a combination of luring and physical manipulation, like myco described. And while I've never had an instructor who taught it exactly the way it was shown in that youtube (nor do I teach it that way myself), I can speculate as to reasons someone _might_ want to teach it that way for some sports.

IMO there's a lot to be gained from cross-training in different sports (and, for that matter, across different techniques and philosophies), because you come to see advantages and disadvantages of the various approaches. Some work better for the acquisition phase of learning, some pay dividends down the road in competition/maintenance. Some facilitate other related behaviors, some conflict with them.

For me, that type of discussion is always more interesting than the umpteenth version of "my dog pulls on leash." And I think it offers more to people who are in the sport world, to whatever extent.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the dog understands the command, I'd get the dog in a high state of drive, teasing up with a ball and give the command. Or ask for the down before you feed. Most often when dogs are in drive, they go down fast, and don't sit first. 
When the drive state is lower, you get the slow downs.
When commanded it will carry over as you are heeling or asking for the position even if you are away from your dog. In IPO there are only a couple times when you down the dog, it isn't as big a deal as the sit seems to be, sit is where they tend to blow points.
My puppy didn't want to down when I was training it with food unless I lured him. After putting some drive building fun into it, he was more correct in how he downed and it was fast.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

There are many ways to teach a behavior, and the first video I posted added the walking backwards, which isn't necessary.

Whether it's obedience or Schutzhund, a down in motion is a down in motion. The mechanics are the same, the exercises they're used in differ.

I don't teach the down from a stand like the first video. I lure the head down and back and the body follows.





The higher the drive, the faster they perform. 





Michael Ellis shows you how to teach it from the side.
Michael Ellis: Sit, Down, Stand from the side - YouTube

Another video used the frisbee to keep the front feet from moving.http://youtu.be/mwU***-E5-8

Michael Ellis on stabilizing positions.
Michael Ellis: Stabilizing Positions - YouTube

I have taught my dog to walk backwards because I do rally obedience, but I have found that backward movement useful for teaching the left turn and pivots.

It was also prescribed as a therapy exercise for my dog to build up muscles that support the lower back. Luckily he already knew how to do it!

Hopefully this will be of some help to someone.


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Karla said:


> There are many ways to teach a behavior, and the first video I posted added the walking backwards, which isn't necessary.
> 
> Whether it's obedience or Schutzhund, a down in motion is a down in motion. The mechanics are the same, the exercises they're used in differ.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this videos :wild:
i lured him incorrectly, and i noticed that after i saw michael ellis's dvd again. 
i bought a new bag of treats and we're gonna try again tomorrow.
wish me luck


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

You are welcome! I'm glad there was something there to help you.

I like Michael Ellis videos! 

Best of luck!


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