# Question about GSDs.



## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

How many of the bigger name dogs in the GSD world have white dogs in their history? I don't know enough about GSDs to look at the pedigree and see for myself yet. 

I have been doing some more looking and it seems to me there are a lot of people out there that breed both of them. I am not a big fan of the white GSDs but do think they have their place in the dog world. With what I have read it's kinda crazy why they were not allowed to compete in AKC. 

How often is it you get a white pup out of dogs with no close history of white in their blood?


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

this will not answer your question, but I just wanted to say that I am a HUGE fan of the white GSDs (having had 3 of them). But I also love the BLACK ones (biased again, I have one) and looking at all the photos on this board I am now I big fan of every GSD! I think that they all have that quintessential GSD look, bone structure and they certainly carry all the other characteristics of the breed. (especially the very vocal part, and I dont mean barking)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The white masking gene is pretty near extinct in the European lines. Whites have been culled since early in the breed, and that means that the gene is now very rare in those lines. However, European fanciers of whites have banded together to preserve whites and have established them as a separate breed, the Berger Blanc Suisse (sp?), in Europe.

In the US, as in Europe, white has long been a disqualifying fault under the standard, which means it is rare (though not comparatively as rare) amongst AKC lines bred for AKC show. It is more common in domestic "backyard" breeder lines than in show lines. But also like in Europe, white fanciers in North America have banded together to preserve the white dogs as a separate type (not a separate breed, though some are in favor of that), through responsible (not BYB) breeding, and they show them in venues that allow whites (such as UKC) and also in performance events.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

From the reasons I have read it seems to be a pretty stupid move to ban the white dogs from competition. The white dog has been there the whole time. I personally don't like the looks of the dog... nothing against anyone who raises them or has them. I like several different looks when it comes to GSDs but prefer the darker dogs the most followed by the black/silver looking ones. I don't agree with seperate classes for the GSD. If color meant so much to the man who started the breed then he would not have had a white dog in his pedigree. Seems to me we are taking the breed in the wrong direction by trying to weed out the white ones.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Whites are not globally "banned from competition". As it is considered a disqualifying fault under the breed standard, they are going to be DQed from conformation showing because the whole point of conformation showing is to see how the dog measures up to the breed standard. They are not banned from any performance events and are free to compete there. Additionally, there are other venues (such as UKC) that do allow for conformation showing as well.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

How can you have a breed standard that bans white dogs when it is known that the breed was started with a white dog in the pedigree? It makes no sense to me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 If color meant so much to the man who started the breed then he would not have had a white dog in his pedigree.


Not true. Under that theory, no dog that didn't at the time frame fit what later became the GSD standard would have ever been used to create the breed... in which case the breed never would have been created in the first place. The founders never liked big dogs or small dogs or floppy eared dogs or wire coated dogs or long coated dogs or other colors either... yet dogs of all those types were used to create the breed, and later once the big priorities were taken care of they could focus on the little priorities and weed out those undesireable characteristics. That's what it means to create a breed in the first place. The whole point of forming a breed is because what one wants in a dog doesn't already exist as a breed already and that means initially taking some unwanted things along with the desireable things.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

In UKC Conformation, the White German Shepherd is shown as a separate breed from the German Shepherd.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

So what your saying is it is the wish of today's GSD owners to weed out the white blood, not the original creater of the breed? They were accepted in the breed until somewhere near 1960 in the USA... I read it but don't remember the exact date but today the majority of the breeders don't like the white color and because of the ones who don't like the color the breed standard is changed? Foolish if you ask me. 

It is my understanding... The white dogs were weeded out because Hitler thought they were bringing disease into the breed. It started in Germany and was followed later in the USA. Am I wrong? Did I get some bad information from the internet?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12In UKC Conformation, the White German Shepherd is shown as a separate breed from the German Shepherd.


But why? The first registered white GSD was somewhere near 1917. Why would you separate the breed when they are both the same dogs?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12In UKC Conformation, the White German Shepherd is shown as a separate breed from the German Shepherd.


The color white is also allowed to be shown in conformation as a GSD in UKC shows - depends on how the dog is registered with UKC as to which "breed" it's shown under - GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG or WHITE SHEPHERD.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

So what your saying above Chris is that the GSD breed was not started with a white dog in the pedigree?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So what your saying is it is the wish of today's GSD owners to weed out the white blood, not the original creater of the breed?


No, that is NOT what I'm saying. If you read the book written by the founder of the breed that details the creation of the breed, you will see that white dogs were considered undesireable from the beginning. Yet they were occasionally used because of other traits they had that were valuable.



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74They were accepted in the breed until somewhere near 1960 in the USA... I read it but don't remember the exact date but today the majority of the breeders don't like the white color and because of the ones who don't like the color the breed standard is changed? Foolish if you ask me.


White was always undesireable, but was permissable for a time. It was determined to be a DQ under the German standard sometime in the 1920s (I don't remember the exact date either) as by then the breed was formed enough that the long undesireable whites could be eliminated without it having a major negative effect on the gene pool. Just took the AKC a few decades to adopt the same rule that the breed's parent club instituted.



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> It is my understanding... The white dogs were weeded out because Hitler thought they were bringing disease into the breed. It started in Germany and was followed later in the USA. Am I wrong? Did I get some bad information from the internet?


Yes, I would say you got some bad information on the internet.



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So what your saying above Chris is that the GSD breed was not started with a white dog in the pedigree?


And again, no that's NOT what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that the GSD breed was started with a conglomeration of indigenous herding dogs which came in all sorts of colors, coat types, sizes, shapes, etc... Some of those physical traits were desired in the new breed. Some were not, yet the dogs were still used because they brought other traits that WERE desired. Over time as the breed developed and became more homogenous and the general type was set, the undesireable characterisitcs (such as white color) could be weeded out while retaining the desireable traits that those original dogs brought with them, and made them included in the foundation stock to begin with. This is how a breed is created in the first place. Obviously the finished product doesn't already exist, or there'd be no need to create a new breed. It's a long process of refinement to go from a conglomeration of widely varying types of foundation stock to the final product.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12In UKC Conformation, the White German Shepherd is shown as a separate breed from the German Shepherd.
> ...


For the same reason whites were formed as their own breed in Europe. They are not allowed under the GSD standard, which prohibits them from conformation showing as GSDs and in Europe are prohibited from being bred and registered as GSDs.

Since the standard isn't likely to change to allow whites, separating into a different variety or breed for whites is pretty logical.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So what your saying is it is the wish of today's GSD owners to weed out the white blood, not the original creater of the breed? They were accepted in the breed until somewhere near 1960 in the USA... I read it but don't remember the exact date but today the majority of the breeders don't like the white color and because of the ones who don't like the color the breed standard is changed? Foolish if you ask me.
> 
> It is my understanding... The white dogs were weeded out because Hitler thought they were bringing disease into the breed. It started in Germany and was followed later in the USA. Am I wrong? Did I get some bad information from the internet?


I do know nothing about Hitler being involved in the development of the breed more than he was a GSD owner himself. I know the old Captain didn't like whites but you have to be on his shoes an understand that many things that are obvious fur us now, were not 100 years ago.

First than all,all the genetic they knew was Mendel, they still talked about "factors" but the ADN per se was discovered a lot later. All the genetic they applied was empiric but they had no idea of how the things they were able to see really worked.

They knew that white in many breeds is linked to deafness, that is a matter of fact, but they didn't know that the white gen in GSDs has nothing to do with the white gen of, to say something, boxers or dalmatians. So these people, the creators of the breeders decided to ban whites because for what they knew it was the wise thing to do to keep the breed healthy. Even maybe that white gen linked to deafness never entered the breed thanks to them, when they were selecting the first dogs.

There is also the old myth about sheep not respecting white dog, that at least my Border Collie friends will say is an old wives's tale, but it was widespread by then.

Second, they didn't had ADN test back them. They could select the phenotype of the dog: no whites, no livers, no blues, so yes, for what I know no white dogs were in the beginnings of he breed, but they had no way to know if a dog has white in his genotype, specially being a recessive gen, until the first white pup popped up, even years later, with the said dog retired and a progeny of 190 descendants siring their own pups.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

So tell me where you are getting your information. Links to it would be appreciated since there must be a lot of information that is false on the internet.


The book your speaking of... When was it written? Where can you find it? 


What else was considered undesireable?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Little something to read.

http://www.whitegermanshepherd.org/Historian.htm


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Below copied from link.

http://www.wgsdca.org/thebreed/gsdvswgsd.asp


GSD vs. WGSD - It’s not a black or white issue!

Submitted by Aimee Harder - Aimee wrote this article for the Hoflin White German Shepherd Annual and it is reprinted here with her permission.

Since the late 1800’s, history shows that the German Shepherd has been an extremely popular breed across the world, and continues to remain popular today. They protect and serve in law enforcement, do a variety of Search and Rescue, serve in Wars in many capacities, provide a myriad of services to handicapped individuals, provide families as lovable companions, herd and guard as farmhands, and even star in their own television shows such as "Rin Tin Tin". German Shepherd dogs can have a variety of coat colors ranging from the typical black/tan, to sable, to all black, or all white. Unfortunately, the white-coated German Shepherd is not allowed to show in the conformation ring along with its fellow German Shepherds. The reason: the white coat is considered a disqualifying fault in the AKC/GSDCA German Shepherd standard. The white coat was not always considered a fault; in fact, it was one of the original colors of the German shepherd dog, and a very important part of creating the breed itself. Reviewing history, we will see where the white coat fits into the big picture of the GSD. 

Over in Europe and especially in Germany, shepherding was a common way of life. The shepherd would use his dog to herd the sheep where he needed them to be throughout the day, and guard the sheep against various unwanted predators. This was the foundation - starting point - of the dogs we know and love today. For numerous years, the Germans used a wide variety of dogs to herd their sheep, with no consistency of "type" among the dogs. All shepherding dogs had been placed under the category of shepherds, with no consideration of their size, color, or shape. 

Captain Max von Stephanitz changed all of that. As a young cavalry officer, he traveled all over the country and stayed with families along the way, many of them farmers. He was fascinated with the shepherd dogs and their working capabilities. However, he noticed that what one dog flourished in the next dog lacked. If only he could create a dog that could have all the qualities of a total working shepherd dog. He generated information on all these dogs and created in his mind what he thought a well-rounded shepherd dog should encompass. Winifred Strickland states in her book, The German Shepherd Today, that Max Von Stephanitz "saw a dog who would be extremely intelligent, quick on his feet, protective if necessary, noble in appearance, trustworthy in character, physically sound so that he could work tirelessly all day long, and be born with an innate desire to please, a dog who could reason and be a companion to man." 

As his ideas formulated, he came to the conclusion that he wanted to breed such a dog and make it available to sheepherders all over Germany. During the last decade of that century, Captain von Stephanitz experimented with breeding dogs, taking the best of the shepherd dogs across the country to get the qualities he desired. Grief, a white coated shepherd dog, was one of the shepherds Max often used to generate his idea of the perfect working dog. In 1899, he attended The Karlsruhe Exhibition and bought Hektor Linkrsheim, a grandson of Grief, but Max immediately changed his name to Horand von Grafrath. Because Grief was white and Horand was line related to him, Horand carried the white gene and sired many white pups and many colored pups with the white recessive gene. 

On April 22, 1899 the Verein fur Deutsche Shaferhund (the SV) was founded, with Max von Stephanitz as the first president. Horand became the first entry in the newly found SV Stud Book and the first written foundation of the German Shepherd breed. There was another club called the Phalax, but this club only survived for approximately four years. 

As German Shepherds grew in numbers and increased in popularity, the SV held dog shows and Max continued to perfect the breed. He wrote and distributed newsletters discussing which dog gave certain qualities and which dogs to breed together. During that era, white-coated German Shepherds were the same in stature and status as a dark-coated German Shepherd. Repeatedly, Max pounded the issue that the German Shepherd was a working breed first and foremost. The beauty is in the working abilities of the dog. He diligently worked to keep the SV (and as such the breeders) on that focus. He created the Koerung, a survey in which the dogs were thoroughly examined, judged, and deemed fit or unfit for breeding. In the beginning, many of these men were idealistic and enthusiastic. Their willingness to follow his orders on breeding largely accounts for the swiftness that the diverse sheep dogs were molded into a distinct and recognizable breed. 

During Winifred Strickland’s interviews with Herta Von Stephanitz (daughter of Max), she learned some history on why Max gave up. In the 1930’s Nazism started to spread throughout Germany rapidly. They were the "elite" and they had power. At the same time, breeders of "luxury" breeds disputed Max’s unyielding position that this was a utilitarian breed. They wanted to focus on beauty and less worry about function. The racial views and plans of the Nazis gave them a different view of what the German Shepherd should have been than what Max von Stephanitz' dream of the German Shepherd was. Many SV members were Nazis and intervened in the SV affairs. They continuously attempted to rid Max of his work. They even threatened him with a concentration camp. After thirty-six years of managing the SV, he gave up. He died one year later on April 22, 1936; ironically this was the anniversary of the conception of the SV.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So tell me where you are getting your information. Links to it would be appreciated since there must be a lot of information that is false on the internet.
> 
> 
> The book your speaking of... When was it written? Where can you find it?
> ...


I'm curious - just what information that Chris gave you do you consider "false" or contra to what you're reading on the net?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Arycrest
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: rapnek74So tell me where you are getting your information. Links to it would be appreciated since there must be a lot of information that is false on the internet.
> ...



You see.... stuff like this is what pisses me off. Never once did I state that anything Chris said is false. Read a little before you pass judgement on something.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

This is what I asked if the information was false! Read and read again if you don't understand please.


It is my understanding... The white dogs were weeded out because Hitler thought they were bringing disease into the breed. It started in Germany and was followed later in the USA. Am I wrong? Did I get some bad information from the internet?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So tell me where you are getting your information. Links to it would be appreciated since there must be a lot of information that is false on the internet.
> 
> The book your speaking of... When was it written? Where can you find it?


Where I get the large part of my information about the history of the breed, the goals of the founder and the step by step process to create the breed would be from the book written by the breed's founder, Max vom Stephanitz in 1925.

I don't think you get any more "straight from the horse's mouth" than that, and I would trust what he wrote about what he did and why he did it over anything written on the internet.

http://www.hoflin.com/Books/The%20German%20Shepherd%20W%20&%20P.html

Max himself disliked white dogs. He comes right out and says so in his book. Who knows why? All he says is that he found them "dull and unintersting" but tradition handed down by others would indicate there were other reasons as well. A misunderstanding of genetics and thinking whites were defective in that area (most likely due to a lack of understanding that white and albino are two different things) was likely involved too. That didn't start with the nazis as the "pure race" ideals were around before Hitler, and reading Max' book it's quite obvious he was very much a believer in the super-race ideaology when he created his breed. Darker colors being more practical and utilitarian for a working breed is also, according to tradition, part of the reason.

Whether you agree with what he did and why he did it and decisions that were made regarding what is and is not allowed or desireable under the breed standard really is a moot point. A breed standard is the blueprint of the breed. It's what makes the dog that breed and not another. And when someone creates a new breed, they get to insert their own preferences into it whether they have legitimate reason for doing so or if it's just for aesthetic reasons doesn't matter. Such is a privilege of creating a new breed.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 You see.... stuff like this is what pisses me off. Never once did I state that anything Chris said is false. Read a little before you pass judgement on something.


My most humble apologies for pissing you off, I shall endeavor to read your written offerings more carefully in the future.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Most say that the translation is not a true translation. May not be from the horses mouth.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Never mind.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Having had several discussions about this topic with people who have read the original in their native tongue, including one former SV breed warden, I can tell you that the translation is close enough that we and they agree on all the major points under discussion.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Shepherd_Dog


History
In German Shepherd lll the recessive gene for white coat hair was cast in the breed gene pool by the late 19th and early 20th century breeding program that developed and expanded the German Shepherd Dog breed in Germany. A white herding dog named Greif was the grandfather of Horand von Grafrath, the dog acknowledged as the foundation of all contemporary German Shepherd Dog bloodlines.


Rittmeister Max Von Stephanitz December 1864 to April 1936Information provided in early books on the German Shepherd Dog[1][2] make mention of Greif and other white German herding dogs, with upright ears and a general body description that resembles modern German Shepherd Dogs, shown in Europe as early as 1882. The early 20th century German Shepherd breeding program extensively line bred and inbred "color coat" dogs that carried Greif's recessive gene for "white coats" to refine and expand the population of early German Shepherd Dogs.[3] White coats were made a disqualification in the German Shepherd Dog Club of Germany breed standard in 1933 after the breed club came under the control of the German Nazi party that took over all aspects of German society in February 1933 when Hitler declared a state of emergency. The German breed standard remained unchanged as German breeders repopulated the breed in the years after the conclusion of WWII.

In 1959 the German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) adopted the exclusively colored breed standard of the parent German breed club. White-coated German Shepherd Dogs were officially barred from competition in the American Kennel Club conformation ring in the United States starting in 1968. AKC-registered white German Shepherd Dogs may still compete in performance events.

During the 1970’s, white dog fanciers in the United States and Canada formed their own "White German Shepherd" breed clubs, breeding and showing their dogs at small specialty dog shows throughout North America.

The White Shepherd Club of Canada (WSCC) has been dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the White Shepherd since 1971. Originally formed as a Chapter of the White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, the club was renamed White Shepherd Club of Canada in 1973. Its first conformation show was held that year with 8 dogs entered and 25 people in attendance.

In Canada, the Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) is incorporated under the Animal Pedigree Act, a federal statute under the auspices of the Ministry of Agriculture, which is the governing body that sets down recognition and standards for all pure animal breeds. For a long time, Agriculture Canada had protected white German Shepherds from the many attempts by the German Shepherd Dog Club of Canada to have white dogs disqualified from the CKC conformation ring, as had long been the case in the USA. Some brave members of WSCC had shown in the CKC breed rings and had even accumulated points toward their dogs' CKC Championships. Unfortunately, that would all change in 1998, when the color white was officially disqualified from the CKC German Shepherd breed standard.

Disappointed but undeterred, the WSCC continues to work toward full breed recognition of the White Shepherd as a separate breed with the CKC. The club hosts shows several times a year, often in combination with the American White Shepherd Association. Event dates and locations are published in the club's newsletter and on its web site.

In September of 1995, a small group of fanciers of the white-coated German Shepherd Dog established the American White Shepherd Association (AWSA), a new club to advance, promote and protect the White Shepherd breed in the United States. In cooperation with the White Shepherd Club of Canada, AWSA wrote and published a new breed standard, and eventually petitioned the American Kennel Club for full recognition as a unique pure breed, separate from and independent of the German Shepherd Dog. As of this writing, AKC has not granted recognition or registration for the White Shepherd breed, but the breeders, fanciers and members of AWSA carry on with independently-held club activities as well as running and maintaining the private club registry. AWSA continues to negotiate with the AKC for breed recognition as well as with the German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) for breed separation. Until such time as GSDCA can be persuaded to grant official release of the white dogs, AKC must continue to register all white German Shepherd Dogs born from two AKC-registered German Shepherd parents as German Shepherd Dogs.

In 1999, a group of AWSA members organized and established the United White Shepherd Club (UWSC) as a United Kennel Club affiliated parent club. They immediately petitioned for a new White Shepherd breed classification within UKC. The United Kennel Club accepted the UWSC's petition and created a new and separate White Shepherd breed conformation standard and registry. The White Shepherd breed was officially recognized by UKC on April 14, 1999. Today, United Kennel Club recognizes both the White Shepherd breed standard as well as the original German Shepherd Dog breed conformation standard where white and colored dogs continue to be considered together as one breed.

Neither UKC nor AWSA-registered White Shepherds can be registered with FCI as White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (Berger Blanc Suisse). Breed clubs associated with each of these unique breed lines maintain their own breed standards for appearance and temperament. The breed "appearance" standard given below is appropriate to the UKC-registered White Shepherd Dog and, with a few very minor changes - mostly in wording and layout - to the written standard of the AWSA club as well.

No matter which country they hail from, White Shepherds excel in performance events such as competition obedience and rally obedience, tracking, flyball and agility. Many fine dogs have also earned titles in herding, proving that the herding instinct and ability has been retained in this versatile breed.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Most opinions you get on here will be bias due to what people like or have at home. It's obvious that some on here think that the white GSD is inferior to the other. 


I don't like the look of the white GSD but I in no way think they are inferior to any other color. I believe that if it was to be banned from competition then the original breeder would have fought to have it passed well before it was. As much work as he put into it and to let it pass for so many years when he was against it in the first place seems pointless. He had time to write a book and did not die until years later but he did not take the time or initiative to do something about it? Looks to me that it's not what he wanted for the German Shepherd Dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

rapnek74, the only thing I still don't understand is why you feel you have to defend the white GSD in here. Most of people here on the board do love whites and feel they are as good German Shepherds as any other, that they deserve their place and even should be protected from extintion. But... the breed standard is what it is, I applaud the people who is fighting hard to get their own recognition because white are indeed beautiful animals, but you cannot change what was written 93 years ago, no matter the reasons they had back then. You are not in war with England now, yet you cannot change The Constitution because it is what defines your country values.

I don't imagine myself with a white GSD because the majority I've seen are from American lines and I don't like other traits of those lines not associated with color, is a personal preference, but you bet... I've seen Bolt 5 times!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74Most opinions you get on here will be bias due to what people like or have at home. It's obvious that some on here think that the white GSD is inferior to the other.


I don't think anyone on here has said the white GSD is inferior. 

They have simply been trying to answer your question as to why the *standard* doesn't allow for them. Though really I'm not sure I understand why you even asked that question in the first place on this board since it's rather apparent you've already made up your mind, based on your internet research elsewhere, as to why those decisions were made 100 years ago.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Ok, it's really a PITB to read posts that are huge! Please keep them to the board rules of 1000 words or less, thanks!


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

So if there was a petition to give the white GSD all the privileges of any other GSD, would you sign it? Would you be willing to throw out the bans on color alone?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI don't imagine myself with a white GSD because the majority I've seen are from American lines and I don't like other traits of those lines not associated with color, is a personal preference, but you bet... I've seen Bolt 5 times!


Love Bolt! Don't see myself with a white GSD either. Like Catu, I don't care for american lines. Not that there's anything wrong with them, I just prefer DDRs.

Also have another issue with white german shepherds, while I find them truly beautiful, WHITE and GERMAN SHEPHERD are contradictory terms. Would drive me nuts keeping the dog from looking filthy. My pup is very black, he's much harder to keep clean than my gold sable girl.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So if there was a petition to give the white GSD all the privileges of any other GSD, would you sign it? Would you be willing to throw out the bans on color alone?


NOPE but I would sign the petition to make them a separate breed.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: rapnek74So if there was a petition to give the white GSD all the privileges of any other GSD, would you sign it? Would you be willing to throw out the bans on color alone?
> ...



What are your reasons for not signing it?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

As others have said here, it's not what the founder of the breed intended. 

Change the standard and allow whites then what's next? Some people want oversized dogs, so let's change the standard to 29" for a male, 27" for female? Some people like blues and livers, let's let them breed too... (Sarcasm alert)


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sure he didn't want all these dogs in America running skill test but that doesn't stop them from doing it does it? 


He was in search of a herding dog and look where we have taken it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

The german shepherd was developed as an all purpose dog, not just a herding dog.

However, if you want to go that direction, here's a question. If the dog is white and sheep are white, wouldn't it be pretty difficult to figure out where a white dog is in relation to the white sheep?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> He was in search of a herding dog and look where we have taken it.


Actually, no he wasn't. Though this is a very common misconception. The GSD breed was NOT created to be a herding breed. It was created FROM herding dogs to be an all around working breed.

The goal was to take the indigenous herding dogs of Germany, and bring them into the 20th century by creating a breed that could be utilized as an all around working dog, mainly for police and military use. This way these great dogs who were an integral part of Germany's pastoral history wouldn't be lost as the country moved toward industralization. Herding was still a legitimate occupation for these dogs too of course, but the founders knew as time went on it would become less and less common and without being proven useful in more modern ways, the dogs would become extinct. This is why very heavy marketing was done to the police and military in order to illustrate the value these dogs could have in that sort of work. 

This purpose of the breed is also an integral part of why much of the GSD breed standard regarding coat color, coat type, ears (erect, not floppy) and size says what it does, as the goal was to strike the best balance of traits possible in order to produce a dog who could perform it's job well and would look like it could perform it's job well.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

How about a black dog at night? That won't work SunCzarina. You have to come up with something stronger than that.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

If you want to discuss things from a practical standpoint, herding doesn't typically happen at night. Livestock heads out to the fields in the am, grazes during the day, comes back in at night.

And that actually is one of the reasons whites were not desireable. For a flock guardian, yes. For a herding dog, no. The bigger reason from a utilitarian standpoint (not the misunderstanding of genetics standpoint we also know influenced the disfavor of whites) is that darker dogs are favored for police and military work. They are less visible, and thus less easy to target. When you consider some of the most common jobs the early GSDs had was serving on the battlefields in WW1 and WW2 as medic dogs, running messages and running communication wire, as well as serving as sentry dogs, a dog who's harder to spot and thus harder to shoot is valuable. They also look more scary, and the dog's ability to be imposing and serve as a deterrent is also an important part of being a good police/military dog. Doesn't mean the darker dog is more capable of actually doing the work, but appearance is an important consideration (as is being less likely to get shot).


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74How about a black dog at night? That won't work SunCzarina. You have to come up with something stronger than that.


I did SAR with a black dog. All you need if you are working at night is to have a pocket flash light, even moonlight is enough to see the reflection in eyes.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Do you believe this statement?

The efficiency for work must count for more with the Shepherd Dog breeder than the honors of the show ring.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Horand granddam was a white dog. Check it out on pedigreedatabase. That being said, the most logical reason to "ban" them would have to be that their color - or lack thereof - made them unsuitable for hearding. i.e. hard to see in a flock, easy to see at night. I can not find any reference that Max called them inferior health wise, some were concerned with the true "albino" gsd and its heath. So with white being a no no - they were systematically eliminated from the breeding stock because the color did not meet the standard. I'm not so sure it isn't time to revisit the color section in the standard. It's like saying blonde hair contestants can not enter a beauty contest. It's an outdated criteria.

I think if you read more of the history, Max moved to Bavaria, bought a farm, and continued his quest for the perfect German shepherd. There can be no argument that in his breeding program, large dogs from the Wurttemberger line were utilized. These dogs were bigger boned, better tail, and much calmer nerves - something Max needed to improve on in his Thuringan lines.

History shows that the German shepherd breedings from the early 1900's to the 1930's produced increasing size over Max's original dog Horand. Many were "over sized" according to the standard (28" + in height) yet took BOB and 1st place in the shows. Even Max pinned ribbons on over sized dogs. Ones with large bone, blocky heads, proper angulation, and nerves.

Then in 1922, Max stopped all registering of male studs that were over the standard. And in 1932 awarded the championship to Boxberg and almost started a riot. With Boxberg being a "smaller" dog than the last champions for several years, The height and weight was more in line with the standard of the day. (Of course the standard has been rewritten at least 7 times which indicates that it is a working document, not set in stone. Althought written to be a blueprint for the breed, it has become a political document that is changed by whomever is in power).

So according to history, at some point in Max's life, there were white dogs in the breeding program and champions that were over the standard. What this says to me is that Max at some point in his life placed a higher value on the internal aspects of the champions; nerves, and work ability of the German shepherd. If it came in a larger dog - so what.

If you look at the champions in the US during the 1960's and early 70's, you can see a shift back to the dogs of the 1920's - a little larger, more blocky, proper angulation. I guess it is an example of how history repeats itself. I can not speak of the historical aspects of the Sch. type dog. Apparently it is the only acceptable definition of "working dog" in many circles. Again history tells teaches us of the versitility of this wonderful breed. It is upsetting when one says that obedieance titles are not as valuable as Sch1. Or a service dog isn't useful because of a lack of a title. Tell that to the diabetic who is saved by a sugar dection GSD or a victum of epilepsy when there GSD notifies a caregiver.

Somewhere along the way people have forgotten that this breed, a breed we all love so much, is a versitile breed. And no matter how one defines what a "working dog" is, there are still German shepherds.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

YEP!! 

Recently reflecting on the breedworthiness of a herding dog - I believe that you can probably take a dog who has good genetic instincts and drives but who is insecure with different environments, crowds/people/pressure and get titles in herding. The dog likes his job, is in an enviornment that is familiar and is not surrounded by people while doing his job, and can succeed there where he may not be able to work with the stress of a typical show or trial. So you need to have a combination of stresses to truly ascertain whether the dog is really solid and good nerved. Working ability is important but it is only PART of character and temperament....structure that is functional will work just as well as structure that is showable...but character needs to be right there with ability.

Lee


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Since the founder of the breed is no longer around to tell us EXACTLY what they were trying to do, the best we have is the breed standard.

The breed standard says white is a disqualifying color. Period. End of story.

Create a new breed.

ACS (American Cocker Spaniels) has a similar quandary. Roan is a color that is inherent in the breed but it not allowed as per the standard. The reason why? When the Cocker Spaniels split into the English and the American the English was more noted for the roan coloring and so the America fanciers wanted to make as much "difference" between the two breeds as they could. But now people are trying to get Roan back in the standard since the structure is the BIG difference between the breeds.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

But the big picture is.... It is not a different breed of dogs. 


I am sure that some people have gone the wrong way with the breeding of white dogs but so have they with the breeding of other color GSDs. 

It's too much like racism to me. Whites drink this water and Blacks drink this water.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Did the founder of the breed write the part about white dogs being disqualified?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I'd have to say that herding was a main objective of Max. He feel in love with a herding dog he watched while sitting on a hillside. It was the decline of the rural and agraian lifestyle, along with Max's knowledge of the French using dogs in their army, that lead to the "police" dogs in Germany.

Here is a link to V Horand von Grafrath http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1208.html. Notice Grief (Sparwasser).

With Horand a carrier of the white gene, I am sure that the dogs from Wurttember would also carry the white gene or even be white.

Remember, today's standard is not the same standard Max wrote - it has been rewritten several times. Other than being disqualified as a color in the standard, are there any other reasons why white, liver, and blue are looked upon as faults? I'm just curious and not trying to get in a long drawn out discussion on color. Did Max also decide to ban those colors? Again, for my own personal information.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I can find no where that it says the founder of the breed was the one who decided to disqualify the white dogs.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

My understanding is that he pulled his pistol out and unloaded it while shooting it into the air. And you are right, the only dog that stayed in place won the show. Of course back then, I think the dogs were less specialized and perhaps looked upon as excelling in conformation, working, nerves, etc. Maybe a more versatile "overall" dog than what we see today with the awarding of separate titles for different classifications i.e. conformation, Sch., Obedience, herding, tracking, etc.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Where did your last post go Chris?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74So if there was a petition to give the white GSD all the privileges of any other GSD, would you sign it? Would you be willing to throw out the bans on color alone?


Hoping I am reading and understanding this correctly.









As as long as the white colored dogs remain part of the German Shepherd Dog breed (I don't believe in breed separation) I would sign a petition requesting the removal of the DQ found in the GSDCA's breed standard used by AKC.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Correct. It evens the playing field. Why say a white dog is better or worse than an non white dog by DQing the white dog. 


If you really want to better the breed then you welcome what ever comes at you no matter of the color. It is a proven fact that color has no effect on the dog.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

In THIS breed. In other breeds it does. And I do know that some blues and livers have skin issues


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as WGSDs alone go, I'd have no problem removing the DQ as I think many of the reasons they were eliminated in the first place are questionable and based on (what we now know) to be erroneous science. Breed separation, as has happened in Europe and many advocate here in North America, would be a sound alternative as well. The problem with that is that it restricts the gene pool. While IMO the WGSDs have nothing to offer the GSD breed as a whole from a genetics standpoint (meaning any traits they bring to the table can be found in plenty of non-white dogs) restricting breeding of WGSDs to WGSDs only would provide them with a much more narrow gene pool which would not be a good thing for the WGSD. This being why many advocates of separation still support an open stud book, allowing outcrossing to colored GSDs.

But from a bigger picture standpoint, I would NOT support a petition to remove the moratorium against non-standard colors because of the precedent it sets. Because if all of a sudden people are allowed to change the standard of the breed to fit their own preferences, what's next? Where does it stop? The long stock coats are already being allowed again by the SV (and always were in the US) despite it being even more of a handicap from a utilitarian standpoint. You propose color be next. Ok, so we allow the blues and the livers and the whites and the pandas. Then what?

Maybe ears? After all, whether a dog's ears stand or are soft has no bearing on it's ability to work or be a pet, and many people think soft eared GSDs are cute. And in today's culture of BSL and lawsuits, a less scary looking dog may have value. So let's get rid of the part of the standard that prohibits soft ears.

Next working ability... most people don't want dogs who work, and aren't prepared to handle the traits that go along with a working dog, so let's get rid of the antiquated idea of GSDs as a working dog and breeding stock having to prove it... oh, wait, that's already happened for the most part. Ok, next topic...

Size. Smaller dogs are better for smaller spaces, so let's allow 16", 35lb GSDs for the apartment dwellers. And then there are the folks who think bigger is better, so we'll also allow the 30", 140lb monsters too. 

And when all this is done what do we have? When it doesn't ACT like a GSD or LOOK like a GSD is it still a GSD? Is that what we want for the breed? Once one part of the standard is deemed unimportant or inconvenient and it's ok to get rid of it to please people, the whole thing becomes worthless and it opens the door for the next thing people find unimportant or inconvenient to be eliminated.. and you no longer have a breed.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: the white GSD is inferior to the other.












Where the heck did that come from?

All that's been mentioned over and over and over and...........is that the white is not allowed in the current standard. Not that it any better or worse, just not part of the standard. Someone created the standard, others agreed, and it is what it is.

I've seen beautiful white GSD's and never thought they were inferior to my sable. 

Same as a Labrador Retriever spotted like a Dalmation is NOT allowed. Or a Dalmation that is all black is NOT allowed. 

I'm not really clear why you are just so emphatic on the white dogs? Almost all the disqualifying faults are exactly as petty and unfair using the same reasoning you are using, but you only care about the white coat? How about the other disqualifying faults?

Nose not all black (you know these dogs can still smell just fine).
Hanging ears (you know these dogs hear just fine)

And you may want to start looking at all the serious faults, cause they should really get you going along the same 'it's not fair' lines!

Why aren't you fighting to have the Panda's accepted? 100% of your arguments should include these dogs too.



















PHENOM SHEPHERDS


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Quote: It is a proven fact that color has no effect on the dog.
> ...


Not to mention deafness. Again, not in GSDs, but color can have a big impact on other non-color health issues.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

And I think it likely that the knowledge that color DID equate to health problems in other breeds was likely a part of why certain colors were unwanted in the GSD. I don't think it's just coincidence that the DQed GSD colors happen to be the same ones that are linked to health issues in other breeds.

Of course, we know now that is not the case with the GSD breed, but they wouldn't have known that 100 years ago.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildAs far as WGSDs alone go, I'd have no problem removing the DQ as I think many of the reasons they were eliminated in the first place are questionable and based on (what we now know) to be erroneous science. Breed separation, as has happened in Europe and many advocate here in North America, would be a sound alternative as well. The problem with that is that it restricts the gene pool. While IMO the WGSDs have nothing to offer the GSD breed as a whole from a genetics standpoint (meaning any traits they bring to the table can be found in plenty of non-white dogs) restricting breeding of WGSDs to WGSDs only would provide them with a much more narrow gene pool which would not be a good thing for the WGSD. This being why many advocates of separation still support an open stud book, allowing outcrossing to colored GSDs.



That statement says to me that you think the WGSD is inferior to the GSD of color even if your scared to say it in public. For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs. 

While my opinions may get me kicked off the board for saying what is on my mind it may be the best thing. Look at the founder of the breed. He started with a dog that came from a white dog. You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:That statement says to me that you think the WGSD is inferior to the GSD of color even if your scared to say it in public. For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs.
> 
> While my opinions may get me kicked off the board for saying what is on my mind it may be the best thing. Look at the founder of the breed. He started with a dog that came from a white dog. You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil.


Once again............









I'm thinking that English is possibly your second language? I could understand then why you are completely confused and misunderstanding Chris Wild's postings. Can you have someone help with these English translations so you can better understand and continue to learn about the breed?

Were you able to understand my last posting about the other non-qualifying faults that you may also want to contact all the GSD clubs about to have changed for the same reasoning as your 'white GSD' comments? Both the non-black nose and hanging ears.

As well as the Panda Shepherds. 

BTW, as long as ANY member remains polite we are all allowed to disagree and state our point of view. NO ONE has ever gotten kicked off for merely *'While my opinions may get me kicked off the board for saying what is on my mind it may be the best thing.'* 

I love white GSD's! But can still accept that the current standard doesn't allow them (or floppy ears and tan noses







)


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildWGSDs have nothing to offer the GSD breed as a whole from a genetics standpoint



What part of this are you missing? It's in English and pretty easy to understand her thoughts on the matter. Are you sure you understand English? A 10 year old can understand this, why are you missing it?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> That statement says to me that you think the WGSD is inferior to the GSD of color even if your scared to say it in public. For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs.
> 
> While my opinions may get me kicked off the board for saying what is on my mind it may be the best thing. Look at the founder of the breed. He started with a dog that came from a white dog. You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil.


You might want to read the board rules that state that personal attacks aren't allowed, but I'll ignore that for now in order to address my point which I think most people reading understood, but obviously you don't or are more interested in arguing than you are in reading and attempting to understand my post.

I have nothing against WGSDs. I DO have issue with the idea of changing the standard just to change the standard because down that road lies the ruin of the breed. I thought I explained that pretty clearly.

As far as where I said the WGSD has nothing to offer, again please actually read my post, including the part where I clarified that what I meant was that at this time in the breed's history, there are no valuable genes that exist in the WGSD that cannot be found in other, standard colored dogs. Therefore there is no need to incorporate WGSDs, or any other specific subset of GSDs, into general GSD breeding in order to attain valuable genetics that don't exist elsewhere, because they do exist elsewhere. Today we are not in the position they were originally in 100 years ago of having to take the undesirable traits along with the desirable ones.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris WildWGSDs have nothing to offer the GSD breed as a whole from a genetics standpoint
> ...


You are the one missing. If you're going to quote me, quote the whole statement:

"While IMO the WGSDs have nothing to offer the GSD breed as a whole from a genetics standpoint <span style="color: #CC0000">(meaning any traits they bring to the table can be found in plenty of non-white dogs)</span>"

Taking particular note of the last part where I clarified what I meant by that, and just explained in the post above.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> You might want to read the board rules that state that personal attacks aren't allowed, but I'll ignore that for now in order to address my point which I think most people reading understood, but obviously you don't or are more interested in arguing than you are in reading and attempting to understand my post.


So what your actually saying is that your going to allow the personal attack (or what you call a personal attack) as long as it allows you the time to come back and belittle me?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'm belittling you? Really?

I think it obvious by your selective quoting and comments that either you A) didn't understand my post or B) don't want to understand my post. That's not belittling, that's merely a statement of fact because if you did understand my post you certainly would not have made the accusations you did.

And yes, both statements would definitely qualify as personal attacks.



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs.





> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> You are the one missing. If you're going to quote me, quote the whole statement:



I did not change your words, they are the same. Why would it matter what part of your post I quoted as long as it's what you said?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> ...


I guess if understanding what was said and the context in which it was said are unimportant to you then it wouldn't matter.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> I'm thinking that English is possibly your second language? I could understand then why you are completely confused and misunderstanding Chris Wild's postings. Can you have someone help with these English translations so you can better understand and continue to learn about the breed?


So what I did is a personal attack but this isn't? I'm really confused now.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 ...
> That statement says to me that you think the WGSD is inferior to the GSD of color even if your scared to say it in public. For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs.
> 
> While my opinions may get me kicked off the board for saying what is on my mind it may be the best thing. Look at the founder of the breed. He started with a dog that came from a white dog. You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil.


HOLY COW - WHAT A LOAD OF







!!!

OK, before I say what I want to say, let me state that I love the WGSD dearly. 

I've had 13 GSDs since I got my first WGSD in 1973 - 7 have been white, 3 have been white factored, 3 have colored ancestors as far back as I can trace. I've had at least one WGSD until 7/31/08 when Kelly went to the Bridge, however, I'll be getting another one (Faith) as soon as I can arrange transportation for her to come down from PA. 

I got my first colored GSD in 1995 and discovered then that they are just as good as the white dogs. I currently have 2 black/tans and 1 red sable. 

I'm not the most knowlegable WGSD member on this forum, but I do know something about the subject. Although I'm not a breeder, I have been involved with the WGSD community for many years. In 1973 I joined my first WGSD club (MARC - Mid-Atlantic Regional Chapter) a regional club of the WGSD club that preceeded the WGSDCII), have been a member of MARC under the WGSDCII, and am the co-founder with Anne Utter of the WGSDCA. I am not currently affiliated with any clubs.

While it's true that some WGSD breeders have consistently produced wonderful specimens of the breed that are closely adhering to the current AKC breed standard, they haven't produced anything which is needed by the better breeders of the AKC show style colored dogs to enhance their lines. In fact, the reverse is true - the WGSD needs the colored dogs for improvements of the gene pool. 

Yes it's true that a couple colored offspring of a white parent/colored parent breeding have become breed champions - at least 1 Canadian Kennel Club and 1 AKC (the son of my JR - Honey & Ringer's brother), they're not exactly setting the colored show world on fire. And it's true that prior to the DQ in Canada, one WGSD was close to earning a breed championship despite the color being considered a serious fault. But even with these small, yet impressive brags, the WGSD is not yet at a point to offer anything to the colored dog's gene pools used by the better breeders.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Originally Posted By: rapnek74
For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs.


Originally Posted By: rapnek74
You are blinded by the dollar sign my dear. It is the root of all evil. 



OK GIVE ME A LEVEL 10 CORRECTION BUT THESE COMMENTS MAKE ME SICK. MR OR MS RAPPYNEK YOU HAVE POSTED ABOUT HOW YOU JUST HAVE QUESTIONS AND WANT TO LEARN BUT HAVE NO DESIRE TO LISTEN TO THE EXPERTS. IF YOU DID YOUR PROPER RESEARCH YOU NEVER WOULD HAVE MADE THE ABOVE STATEMENTS. 

(from someone who wants to rap a nek at least 74 times)


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Oh my ....

Chris, I respect your opinion and fortitude to adhere to the standard. If only the show world would open up their eyes and mind. Changing the standard is not to be taken lightly. However, if we have evidence now - that the writers didn't have then - would that be a case to revisit what the standard says i.e. color? Again, I am just asking because I really enjoy an honest open dialog between folks that may have opposing points of view. All I ask is to keep it a true dialog - I do not take things personal in this form, I just want to know what/how others feel. IF (and that is a big if) certain colors were thought to be associated with major health issues and we now know that the correlation is false, should the color section be revisited? I think it should. I do not know of any studies where a particular color has been directly associated with a major medical/temperament issue. But that is just from my point of view.

I would not consider revising other sections such as physical characteristics i.e. ears, height, weight, conformation requirements, etc. As you rightly state - it defines the breed. The issues surrounding these traits will be discussed for eternity by those that love and respect this breed.

I respect ones right to defend the standard and if approached in a non confrontational way, ones right to question the standard. Many of us older folks have spent most of lives questioning authority - we are a victim of our society. Hopefully we have learned that open dialog is the key.

And yes, I have had a post or two removed because of my wording about a certain topic. So at times, we all get caught up in the moment but usually cooler heads prevail and hopefully, knowledge is exchanged.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 (in response to Chris Wild)For you to make the bold statement that no WGSD has anything to offer the GSD shows how little you know about the breeding of dogs.


Yeah, right. Chris knows so little about breeding dogs ...

• December 13, 2008 - Dhalien v Wildhaus and Bev C. earn their TR1 with a score of 95 points at the White River Working Dog Club trial under USA Judge Anne Marie Chaffin.

• December 13, 2008 - Draco v Wildhaus and Curtis R. earn their TR1 at the White River Working Dog Club trial under USA Judge Anne Marie Chaffin.

• November 16, 2008 - Estel v Wildhaus and Calvin L. earn their BH at the Alexandria SchH Verein trial under USA Judge Frank Phillips.

• November 16, 2008 - Bismark v Wildhaus, aka "Chase" and Leesa F. earn a TR1 with a score of 93 at the Alexandria SchH Verein trial under USA Judge Frank Phillips.

• November 16, 2008 - Chaos v Wildhaus and Leesa F. repeat their SchH1 with a score of 97-90-88P under USA Judge Frank Phillips at the Alexandria SchH Verein trial.

• October 19, 2008 - Ember v Wildhaus, aka "Phantom", and Christina O. earn their BH at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under SV Judge Werner Rapien.

• October 18, 2008 - Eris v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their SchH2 at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under SV Judge Werner Rapien.

• October 18, 2008 - Chris Wild and Denali v Wildhaus, aka "Della", earn their SchHA at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under SV Judge Werner Rapien.

• May 31, 2008 - Eris v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their SchH1 at the OG Michigan SchH Club trial under SV Judge Dieter Schmale.

• May 25, 2008 - Chris Wild and Denali v Wildhaus, aka "Della", earn their BH at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mike Caputo.

• May 17, 2008 - Eris v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their BH under FCI Judge Alfons van den Bosch at the Belleville Dogsport Association trial.

• May 4, 2008 - Chaos v Wildhaus and Leesa F. earn their SchH2 with a score of 97-82-96P under DVG Judge Sandy Purdy at the Alexandria SchH Club trial.

• May 4, 2008 - Eyra v Wildhaus and Charlotte G. earn their BH under DVG Judge Sandy Purdy at the Alexandria SchH Club trial.

• May 4, 2008 - Bismark v Wildhaus, aka "Chase", and Leesa F. earn their BH under DVG Judge Sandy Purdy at the Alexandria SchH Club trial.

• April 12, 2008 - Dante v Wildhaus and Lynn P. earn their SchH2. Their score of 93-83-88P earned High SchH2 and High Tracking under USA Judge Anne Marie Chaffin at the Central Maryland SchH Club trial.

• April 12, 2008 - Chaos v Wildhaus and Leesa F. earn their OB2 with a score of 91 points and TR2 with a score of 90 points at the Central Maryland SchH Club trial under USA Judge Anne Marie Chaffin.

• November 24, 2007 - Chris Wild and Caliber v Wildhaus and earn their SchH1 under SV Judge Vic Wilms at the White River Working Dog Club trial in Indiana. Raven's score of 95-86-94P brought home High Tracking, High Obedience, High Protection, High SchH1 and High in Trial... all on a strange field and strange helper!

• November 24, 2007 - Dai'shan v Wildhaus and Kathy M. earn their BH under SV Judge Vic Wilms at the White River Working Dog Club trial.

• November 24, 2007 - Draco v Wildhaus and Curtis R. earn their BH under SV Judge Vic Wilms at the White River Working Dog Club trial.

• November 24, 2007 - Dhalien v Wildhaus and Beverly C. earn their BH under SV Judge Vic Wilms at the White River Working Dog Club trial.

• November 17, 2007 - Argo v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their SchH3 at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mark Przybylski.

• November 17, 2007 - Ira vom Argatos comes out of retirement to earn a TR2 with her new handler, Lisa H. at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mark Przybylski. A great day for a retired dog and a novice handler participating in her first SchH trial!

• November 2007 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. advance to Master Excellent (MX).

• October 2007 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. advance to Master Excellent Jumpers (MXJ).

• October 14, 2007 - Chaos v Wildhaus and Leesa F. earn their SchH1 under Judge Leo Muller at the Alexandria SchH Verein DVG trial. Their score of 88-95-96P brought home High Tracking, High Obedience, High Protection, High SchH1 and High in Trial!!

• October 13, 2007 - Bane v Wildhaus and Gina J. earn their BH under USA Judge Johannes Grewe at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial.

• October 13, 2007 - Eris v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their AKC Canine Good Citizen (CGC) award.

• October 6, 2007 - Dante v Wildhaus and Lynn P. earn their SchH1 with a 98-86-93P! They took home High Tracking, High Obedience, High Protection, High SchH1 and High in Trial at the Fair Hill SchH Club trial in Maryland, under USA Judge Bill Szentmiklosi.

• September 2007 - Beretta v Wildhaus is the #16 ranked German Shepherd competing in AKC Agility in the United States, according to AKC rankings.

• September 2007 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. advance from Novice Fast to Open Fast (OF).

• May 20, 2007 - Chaos v Wildhaus and Leesa F. earn a TR1 at the Central Maryland SchH Club trial under SV Judge Helmut Rueppell... with a perfect 100pt track!

• May 19, 2007 - Dutari v Wildhaus and Bridgett B. earn their BH.

But wait ... there's more!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

• May 12, 2007 - Caliber v Wildhaus and Chris Wild earn their BH at the Belleville Dogsport Association trial under SV Judge Werner Rapien.

• April 2007 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. obtain their new Novice Fast Agility rating (NF).

• March 2007 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. advance to the highest level of Agility competition, Excellent(AX/AXJ).

• December 10, 2006 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. earn their Canine Good Citizen award (CGC) and pass therapy dog certification through Therapy Dogs International (TDI).

• November 18, 2006 - Daeriel v Wildhaus and Karen E. earn their BH at the Central Maryland SchH Club trial under SV Judge Michel Bouisseau.

• November 18, 2006 - Dante v Wildhaus and Lynn P. earn their BH at the Central Maryland SchH Club trial under SV Judge Michel Bouisseau.

• November 18, 2006 - Chaos v Wildhaus and Leesa F. earn their BH at the Central Maryland SchH Club trial under SV Judge Michel Bouisseau.

• November 18, 2006 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. earn their Herding Instinct Certificate (HIC).

• October 22, 2006 - Argo v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their SchH2 at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial under USA Judge Mike Hamilton. They took home High In Trial, High SchH2, High Obedience and High Protection!

• June 2006 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. advance to Open Agility and Open Agility Jumpers (OA/OAJ).

• May 18, 2006 - Bayani v Wildhaus and Tonya S. earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• May 13, 2006 - Beowulf v Wildhaus and Tim Wild earn their BH at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mike Hamilton.

• May 13, 2006 - Chris Wild and her HOT female, Aiden zu Treuen Handen, earn their SchH1 taking home High Obedience at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mike Hamilton.

• May 13, 2006 - Argo v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their SchH1 at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mike Hamilton.

• April 2006 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. earn their Novice Agility and Novice Agility Jumpers Titles (NAJ/NJ).

• November 1, 2005 - Beretta v Wildhaus and Jenn K. earn their AKC/GSDCA TC (Temperament Certificate).

• June 4, 2005 - Chris Wild and her HOT female, Aiden zu Treuen Handen, earn their BH at the Capital Area SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mark Przybylski.

• November 6, 2004 - Tim Wild and his HOT female, Jette vom Eichenluft, earn their SchH1 at the Northcoast SchH Club trial under USA Judge Mike Hamilton.

• October 10, 2004 - Argo v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• October 9, 2004 - Argo v Wildhaus and Dianna H. earn their BH at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial.

• June 12, 2004 - Tim Wild and his HOT female, Jette vom Eichenluft, earn their BH at the OG Michigan SchH Club trial under SV Judge Hans Christian Boll.

• May 15, 2004 - Athena v Wildhaus and Justin B. earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• May 15, 2004 - Anikke v Wildhaus, trained and handled by Tim Wild, earns her Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• October 5, 2003 - Tim Wild and Jette vom Eichenluft earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• October 4, 2003 - Chris Wild and Ira vom Argatos earn their SchH1 under USA Judge Nathaniel Roque at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial.

• March 22, 2003 - Chris Wild and Kaiser Reinhardt vom Dunhill earn their therapy dog certification through Therapy Dogs International (TDI).

• March 22, 2003 - Chris Wild and Ira vom Argatos earn their therapy dog certification through Therapy Dogs International (TDI).

• March 22, 2003 - Aramis Raif v Wildhaus and Lisa M. earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• October 12, 2002 - Chris Wild and Ira vom Argatos earn their BH under SV Judge Vic Wilms at the Capital Area SchH Club trial.

• September 13, 2002 - Chris Wild and Ira vom Argatos earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• February 3, 2002 - Tim Wild and Narsil vom Frolich Haus earn their Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

• October 13, 2001 - Chris Wild and her HOT male, Kaiser Reinhardt vom Dunhill earn their SchH3 with High Obedience at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial under GSSCC Judge Dave Grant.

• November 10, 2000 - Chris Wild and her HOT male, Kaiser Reinhardt vom Dunhill earn their SchH2 at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial under USA Judge Glenn Stephenson.

• September 9, 2000 - Chris Wild and her HOT male, Kaiser Reinhardt vom Dunhill earn their SchH1 at the Belleville Dogsport Association trial, and take home High SchH1 and High Protection.

• May 20, 2000 - Chris Wild and her HOT male, Kaiser Reinhardt vom Dunhill, earn their BH at the South Michigan SchH and Police Club trial under SV Judge Werner Rapien.

• March 7, 2000 - Chris Wild and Kaiser Reinhardt vom Dunhill earn their AKC Canine Good Citizen (CGC).

Chris has been producing awesome examples of the breed for over 9 years.

*What have YOU bred that allows you to pass judgment on her?*


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

anyone have a list on wgsd's that have sch titles?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Chris, I respect your opinion and fortitude to adhere to the standard. If only the show world would open up their eyes and mind. Changing the standard is not to be taken lightly. However, if we have evidence now - that the writers didn't have then - would that be a case to revisit what the standard says i.e. color? Again, I am just asking because I really enjoy an honest open dialog between folks that may have opposing points of view. All I ask is to keep it a true dialog - I do not take things personal in this form, I just want to know what/how others feel. IF (and that is a big if) certain colors were thought to be associated with major health issues and we now know that the correlation is false, should the color section be revisited? I think it should. I do not know of any studies where a particular color has been directly associated with a major medical/temperament issue. But that is just from my point of view.


Doc,

I already addressed this in my earlier post, but it sort of got overlooked when a person decided to latch on to part of a sentance and take it out of context. As I said earlier, *I* would have no problem allowing whites back in under the GSD standard because I feel many of the reasons they were left out to begin with are questionable, and based on a misunderstanding of the genetics of white in the GSD.

But my worry in doing so is the precedent it sets. While you and I can say "let in the whites but stop there", I don't have much confidence in how that would play out in reality. Once the standard is opened up to allow something long considered faulty just because we in modern times don't think they should have been considered faulty, or they have a large following of fans who want them to be official, what's next? If people start lobbying for blues and livers and pandas and floppy ears and minis and giants all to become acceptable, and thus encouraged to be bred. Once it's done once it becomes easier and more likely to happen again and again and again until the standard might as well be thrown out the window.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Your point(s) are well taken. Thank you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am closing this thread down. 

Admin

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