# How do you interpret this dog?



## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Would be very interested in our K9 handlers‘ impressions on where they believe this dog is in his training. Seems to be all defense drive to me but I am curious how you guys interpret him. To me he gives the impression of trained muzzle work, and not a dog starting out.






Thanks


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I have no idea, I just feel sorry for him. What do you mean by "trained muzzle work"?


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Muzzle training is when dogs are trained to subdue without biting so the muzzle is on. I don’t see it much so I thought one of the folks that train in it would maybe break it down for us. This dog seems overly stressed/definitely frustrated. Maybe his controlled aggression work is better.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

This type of "training" is how e collars got a bad reputation. Zap 'em into submission.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I would have liked the video to at least have shown the dog being brought out, though that’s not meant to disparage anyone. Very stressed animal.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Yea it made me squirm. You could tell when they nailed him the ecollar. I have never been in that postion so I can't pass any judgment. Just compassion for the dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I only watched half of the video. First, that is a really nice dog and doing exactly what he should. I'm guessing that is "Fred Hassan" at the start of the video with that dog. The whole approach is wrong and quite frankly idiotic. This is about as hard to watch as Cesar Milan making a dog "calm and submissive." From what the description says this is a "Police K9 Seminar" In North Carolina. I'm guessing this dog's handler is new or relatively inexperienced. No experienced Handler, sport, MWD or Police K9 Handler would let a stranger take his dog and do this to the dog. Period. 

Let's be clear, Police K9's are not Lassie and Lassie would be a terrible Patrol Dog. There is nothing wrong, IMHO, with a dog that redirects and tries to tag a stranger who grabs his leash. Two of the dogs that I worked on the street would have done the exact same thing, probably even more violently. My current dog is more social and very comfortable in the muzzle. But, I am never going to hand my leash to someone else to control my dog in a muzzle, especially with an E collar. That is a pretty tough dog and I like him. However, even the toughest dog can be shutdown and caused to submit or comply by tough corrections and exhaustion. The dog was gassed half way through that video. I'd like to see Hassan do that to the dog with out the muzzle on. 

Since we are talking about Police K9's that are supposed to apprehend violent criminals, compulsion used in that manner creates avoidance, confusion and a desire to not engage. While control is important, clarity in training is more important. What did the dog learn from that exercise? We really need to examine this from the perception of the dog and the dog's perception is his reality. What did the dog learn???? The dog learned that he can be beaten, he can be defeated by a stranger. No matter how aggressively he acts he could not win. This, IMHO does not show me that Hassan is a good trainer, a tough dog handler or anything of the sort, exactly the opposite. A good trainer would never do this to a dog who is a Police K9. It was extremely counter productive and I guarantee will produce training scars for the dog. 

Getting back to the issue of the dog being "muzzle happy", or associating the muzzle with aggression this is a training issue that is easily avoided. This is created in training when the dog only wears the muzzle to muzzle fight and associated the muzzle with aggression. It is an easy fix. First, thing is to do everything you do in a muzzle before the dog ever sees a decoy or does aggression work. Obedience, Rhino drills, scent work, tracking, going for long walks are all done in the muzzle prior to doing any aggression work. Think of how hard it must be to handle that dog at the vet in a muzzle? We do drills in buildings with a toy and several guys in a stack with the muzzle and the dog is integrated into the "stack" for building clearing. It is very difficult to clear a building when searching for a felony suspect if the dog is not comfortable around a bunch of Officers or SWAT guys bumping into him, stepping on him or over him. Training in the muzzle is the best way to accomplish this. 

What went on in that video is simply a way to stroke the ego of Fred Hassan and has no place in training Police K9's. I use E collars, but they are not the tool for every training revolution. Again, think of the impact on that dog. I've gone to some seminars with my dog and when asked to bring my dog out I've said "NO, I'm not doing that with my dog!" Or, "You are not doing that with my dog!" This would be one of them.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

@Slamdunc Awesome points across the board. Appreciate a real world perspective on this and I think your points on normalizing a muzzle during regular tasks is spot on. Of the few K9 handlers I have been around, I've never seen any treat their dogs like this one was,


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

The "Rhino Drill" is a really great way to acclimate a dog to the muzzle. It is also a great warm up and conditioning exercise. If you look at Boru in the video every muscle in his body is engaged. The rest period is critical and most dogs will not make it for the 4 minute session. They will be gassed. The drill is 1 minute of work, 30 seconds of rest then 1 minute of work and 30 seconds of rest. The work is repeated for four one minute intervals. It actually lasts 6 minutes. I had Boru up to 9 minutes of work with the rest periods. Then the rest of the exercises. That is a conditioned dog. 

If the dog only wears the muzzle for aggression exercises or to fight a person he will associate the muzzle with aggression. 

I can see the need to gain control of the dog in the video. But, IMHO, the handler should have been doing the corrections not a stranger to a Police K9. A pet dog might be a different story, not a pet of mine though.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I had never seen anything like this. What is it for?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

' A pet dog might be a different story, not a pet of mine though.' Not mine either! I don't care about the reputation of the trainer, if I am not comfortable and the trainer didn't gain my trust then he is not touching my dog and definitely not correcting my dog. He is my dog and my responsibility to protect him from harm. Pet dogs are not of a lesser value and do not deserve less respectful treatment than Police K9s.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I made it through half the video. That was tough to watch.
I like the dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I had never seen anything like this. What is it for?


Do you mean the video I posted?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Chloé&Buck it is to condition dogs and acclimate them to the muzzle. The video below shows a conditioning program we do with the dogs.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Slamdunc said:


> @Chloé&Buck it is to condition dogs and acclimate them to the muzzle. The video below shows a conditioning program we do with the dogs.


Ah thanks, I see the logics. The parachute run looks fun.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

That's just stupid macho handling that does nothing to benefit the dog. It's old school lion taming and they broke the dog. There is some more productive muzzle work later in the video where they allow the dog to win, but that e-collar is always at the front of his mind. He's confused and frustrated. Shameful


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> That's just stupid macho handling that does nothing to benefit the dog. It's old school lion taming and they broke the dog. There is some more productive muzzle work later in the video where they allow the dog to win, but that e-collar is always at the front of his mind. He's confused and frustrated. Shameful


I only made it through half the video. I was watching the dog wilt, and it hurt my heart. It reminded me of the old school horse training, ride them into the dirt stuff. 
I am happy most trainers don't subscribe to these methods anymore.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

I'm glad my dog isn't like that but I feel so sorry for him. He's miserable. How did they even get to put the muzzle on him?


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