# House Trained GSD Puppy from any breeders?



## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hi all,

I'm new to this board, but I've been following the great posts for the past year or so. I've never owned a dog, but have always wanted one, and now I'm finally in a work/financial position to do so. I was searching for a pet/companion dog with protective instincts and then came across media discussions that criminalized a few dog breeds -- like the GSD, Rottweiler, Doberman, Pitbull, etc. I also saw how Insurance companies make folks pay more for owning certain breeds and certain towns, provinces, and countries have banned certain breeds altogether. I was shocked.

But one thing I have learned from my research is that the owner matters a whole lot more than the breed in whether a dog is a danger to the public. So as a university researcher, I've become interested in researching "dangerous" dog breeds and their owners and how dog bans and restrictions may be potentially misguided. And to do the research properly, I need to own one of the so-called dangerous dog breeds. My wife grew up with a GSD and highly recommends that I get one. I also believe that the GSD is the best choice since it's super intelligent, loyal, and attentive -- which is important for someone who's never owned a dog.

I want to purchase a GSD from a breeder in the Ontario area. I also prefer a dog from a working line breed since I plan to train it for protection, etc. (though I definitely don't want it to be an "attack" dog). I also plan to take the dog with me everywhere, especially to my research sites, where I do research in gang and crime-ridden neighborhoods. Except for one day a week, I'll be spending time with the dog every day since I mostly work from home.

However, as a new dog owner, I would prefer a low to low/medium energy dog. I also prefer to skip the house training stage since I'm currently living in an apartment (I can't even begin to imagine running into the hall, then into an elevator, then outside with a puppy for up to 8 to 10 times a day). My fear in getting an adult GSD from a rescue is that I wouldn't know (at least, I think) whether the dog was conceived through a "backyard breeder," whether it's a pure GSD, and whether it experienced previous traumas and eventually have psychological pop up.

I'm asking the board for help in directing me to an appropriate breeder in Ontario. Also, I want to know whether breeders practice holding a pup until 12 to 16 weeks to begin teaching it house training (I'd be willing to pay a higher pup price for this service).

Thank you in advance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you want low-medium energy, you want a show-line dog. Many are trained in protection, so that is not a problem. Pick a breeder who does that with their dog. But maybe your first dog is not the dog you want for that training... Whatever. 

If you want an older pup that is house trained, then you need to realize that it will still need to be trained for your schedule and your home, and it will need to learn how to let you know it has to go, so expect some accidents. A 12 week old puppy can maintain his bladder for 3-4 hours. So, you are going to be getting on the elevator and outside quick even with an older puppy.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks, I see what you mean by holding off on the protection training. I definitely need to get a sense of having a dog before I take it to the next level. The only thing with getting a pup from a show line breeder -- and I got this information through the previous discussions posted here, but I could've misinterpreted some of it -- is that the show line breeder breeds mostly, but not totally, for appearance. This is why show line dogs have a severe downward angle toward their hind quarters. I don't want to revive the angulation debate here or unintentionally say something offensive, but I don't want a GSD with that downward angulation. But then, as you mentioned, working-line GSDs are way more likely to have high energy. I guess the question becomes: does a low energy working line GSD have more energy than a low energy or medium energy showline GSD?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you are better off with a show line, just find a breeder who is not breeding for extremes. Actually, there are a LOT of nice show line dogs out there.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> I also plan to take the dog with me everywhere, especially to my research sites, where I do research in gang and crime-ridden neighborhoods. Except for one day a week, I'll be spending time with the dog every day sin


Just curious, if you don't mind, but what kind of research do you do in gang and crime-ridden neighborhoods?


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just curious, if you don't mind, but what kind of research do you do in gang and crime-ridden neighborhoods?


I'll take the advice below and be open to show lines since it's unfair to lump show line breeders into one category. As for my research, I spend time observing and hanging out with people who commit crime or have formerly committed crime, like drug dealers, gang members, street robbers, cd and dvd bootleggers, ex-offenders, etc. I don't believe in studying crime from afar, like in only examining crime statistics. I prefer to get up-close to the phenomenon because they're lots of things that the statistics don't capture. For example, like when you only look at dog bite stats in the US -- the numbers alone would make you think that Pitbulls and GSDs are inherently a dangerous breed, or that there's something about them genetically that predisposes them to being dangerous toward people. But I know that there must something else going on in terms of the environment under which the dog is raised. And I don't like to speculate about those things; I prefer to get up close and witness them firsthand.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> I'll take the advice below and be open to show lines since it's unfair to lump show line breeders into one category. As for my research, I spend time observing and hanging out with people who commit crime or have formerly committed crime, like drug dealers, gang members, street robbers, cd and dvd bootleggers, ex-offenders, etc. I don't believe in studying crime from afar, like in only examining crime statistics. I prefer to get up-close to the phenomenon because they're lots of things that the statistics don't capture. For example, like when you only look at dog bite stats in the US -- the numbers alone would make you think that Pitbulls and GSDs are inherently a dangerous breed, or that there's something about them genetically that predisposes them to being dangerous toward people. But I know that there must something else going on in terms of the environment under which the dog is raised. And I don't like to speculate about those things; I prefer to get up close and witness them firsthand.


You do realize their is a massive distinction between dog bites, dog maulings and dog bite related fatalities?

If I am not mistaken, the last time I checked, the stats reflected that Dachshunds were the number one breed for dog bites. Perhaps they might be a good choice of breed for you.

How do you plan on researching that owners matter more than breed? Will you conduct studies across all economic classes or will you be targeting the poor and the criminally minded? 

Have you thought about spending time at working dog venues where the breeds you have spoken about compete and talking to those who train and trial with them? Or how about the with reputable breeders who breed to the breed standards which outline the genetic blueprint of what should be expected behaviorally from the breeds you are choosing to research?


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

You're absolutely right, sorry for not making the distinctions between dog bites and maulings. I've seen different sites with different stats and it gets confusing sometimes. But I know at some point, I have to get the most accurate one and hopefully someone here can lead me to it (no Dachshunds in this research since they're not considered a "dangerous" dog -- at least not in the public imagination!). 

It looks like I'm in good company here since you've pretty much outlined lots of things that I should do in terms of proper research. I plan to spend time with dog owners from all social classes and I'll do this through meeting people in dog parks, (and like you mentioned) in competitive trials, in training facilities, and just hanging out in different neighborhoods. I especially want to meet breeders of dogs considered dangerous to get their insights into how to properly socialize and breed dogs for the best outcome. I could also learn about their experiences in placing dogs in people's homes. 

But I'm still completing a current field research project in the states so this is more of a long term deal. I want to own a GSD to experience for a few years what it's like to be GSD owner -- the good and bad. I also want to ensure that I spend enough time meeting new owners, experienced owners, and expert breeders. And I'm truly looking forward to it because I just keep hearing about how GSDs make wonderful companions -- which is why I wanted a dog in the first place!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> You're absolutely right, sorry for not making the distinctions between dog bites and maulings. I've seen different sites with different stats and it gets confusing sometimes. But I know at some point, I have to get the most accurate one and hopefully someone here can lead me to it (no Dachshunds in this research since they're not considered a "dangerous" dog -- at least not in the public imagination!).
> 
> It looks like I'm in good company here since you've pretty much outlined lots of things that I should do in terms of proper research. I plan to spend time with dog owners from all social classes and I'll do this through meeting people in dog parks, (and like you mentioned) in competitive trials, in training facilities, and just hanging out in different neighborhoods. I especially want to meet breeders of dogs considered dangerous to get their insights into how to properly socialize and breed dogs for the best outcome. I could also learn about their experiences in placing dogs in people's homes.
> 
> But I'm still completing a current field research project in the states so this is more of a long term deal. I want to own a GSD to experience for a few years what it's like to be GSD owner -- the good and bad. I also want to ensure that I spend enough time meeting new owners, experienced owners, and expert breeders. And I'm truly looking forward to it because I just keep hearing about how GSDs make wonderful companions -- which is why I wanted a dog in the first place!


Good luck in your endeavors. However, I highly doubt that you will find any one source that accurately tracks bites, mauling AND fatalities. I am not so sure I understand why you would want only one. That strikes me as rather biased. How will you gage the veracity of any data source?


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

Low/medium energy and working line GSD are definitely not in the same category, breeders don't breed working line shepherds to be low energy, they breed for high energy, high drive so they can excel at protection training. A show line would be the best pick for you, but definitely a good shoreline from a good breeder, one that doesn't focus or have dogs with extremely roached backs (the slope) I'm also from ontario an can help you find a couple good show line breeders. 
Puppies 12-14 weeks are still puppies, they will still need the same type of schedule and potty breaks as younger puppies, they need to go out every 3-4 hours (4 at the longest) Maybe an older puppy, more around 6 month to a year would be better for you, and remember you can't just get a puppy and have it fit into a perfect mould that you want the dog to be. 
I'm also confused on what your definition of an "attack dog" is, do you mean a dog trained in police work? because if thats so than protection training/IPO is basically the same thing, the dog does all the same commands and the same training that police dogs would go threw, (living in Ontario I can also help you find a great trainer of protection based on where you live) I would do tons and tons of research right now on the different types of training and dogs sports. As well as the different types of shepherds i.e. show line, working line, and which one would fit you best, personally i think a properly bred show line, thats not to to big (60-70lbs maybe) that is low to medium energy with a medium drive would fit you best, and that is the type of dog you would be most compatible and happy with. I'll do some research on some great breeders of proper show line GSD's, i'm curious myself  There are show lines that do protection so you shouldn't choose working line just because of that, working line's are intense dogs with needs that many people don't have time, patience, or experience to give them. and with this being your first dog it would be very difficult to handle a working line, or high energy high drive dog, and not for any other reason than you lack of experience, its crazy how having experience can help so much, but don't worry you will get there  
Now for the research that you are doing, i'm confused to if it is for your job, or more the breed researching?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> For example, like when you only look at dog bite stats in the US -- the numbers alone would make you think that Pitbulls and GSDs are inherently a dangerous breed, or that there's something about them genetically that predisposes them to being dangerous toward people


There is something that predisposes them to be dangerous towards people. 

Genetics.

Look at the breeds that end up on the top of the lists. Most have origins as guardians, fighting or hunting dogs. That means they have high prey drive. High defensive/fight drives. Biting things have been their jobs for 1000s of years.

Then you have the poorly bred ones with nerve issues. 

None of the "dangerous" breeds are appropriate for inexperienced/first time owners (exceptions of course for those willing to take dog 101) 

That is how tragedies happen. People who don't understand dogs, Don't understand what their dogs are capable of, And don't manage their dog's properly get a dog they cannot handle.

I've owned pits. I love pits. I've been around -a lot- of pit bulls. I have a GSD now. Had GSD's as a kid. Had a lot of GSD mixes. It is NOT how you raise them or how you train them. It is 100% how you manage them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

where are you in Ontario?
the OP doesn't want a hyper reactive dog.


I can introduce you to some excellent trainers so 
that you can make a better decision .
I don't think a show line dog is what you would want.
That is where the OP needs to see dogs in work and
speak with those who routinely provide dogs for these
requirements.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Good luck in your endeavors. However, I highly doubt that you will find any one source that accurately tracks bites, mauling AND fatalities. I am not so sure I understand why you would want only one. That strikes me as rather biased. How will you gage the veracity of any data source?


I just wanted to see if anyone knew of an accurate source. If not, I'll try to figure out what's going on with what's available and with the help of people who are familiar with the sources. Thanks.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> I just wanted to see if anyone knew of an accurate source. If not, I'll try to figure out what's going on with what's available and with the help of people who are familiar with the sources. Thanks.


Good, when you come across something that documents the dangers of German Shepherds, please come back and share it.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks, that's the part that I don't know too much about -- the ability of show lines to do protection work, etc. I want to eventually do protection work so that I could understand from firsthand experience how it feels and to understand better what folks who are experts tell me about doing that type of work (it's like stepping on a dance floor to understand better what dancers feel when they dance). But I do understand that I first have to get experience and feel for having a dog before I even take it to that level.

In terms of the research, this is something that I would eventually do for my job. I would try understand and explain how certain dogs get criminalized by politicians and the public and whether it is an accurate portrayal. This is just a starting point, which is why it's still hazy. As I meet trainers, owners, breeders and become more familiar with how they socialize and train dogs, the main goals and questions will fall into place.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> Thanks, that's the part that I don't know too much about -- the ability of show lines to do protection work, etc. I want to eventually do protection work so that I could understand from firsthand experience how it feels and to understand better what folks who are experts tell me about doing that type of work (it's like stepping on a dance floor to understand better what dancers feel when they dance). But I do understand that I first have to get experience and feel for having a dog before I even take it to that level.
> 
> In terms of the research, this is something that I would eventually do for my job. I would try understand and explain how certain dogs get criminalized by politicians and the public and whether it is an accurate portrayal. This is just a starting point, which is why it's still hazy. As I meet trainers, owners, breeders and become more familiar with how they socialize and train dogs, the main goals and questions will fall into place.


I think it is critical that you also speak to the victims of those breeds. Talk about first hand experience.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

Suzy25 said:


> Low/medium energy and working line GSD are definitely not in the same category, breeders don't breed working line shepherds to be low energy, they breed for high energy, high drive so they can excel at protection training. A show line would be the best pick for you, but definitely a good shoreline from a good breeder, one that doesn't focus or have dogs with extremely roached backs (the slope) I'm also from ontario an can help you find a couple good show line breeders.
> Puppies 12-14 weeks are still puppies, they will still need the same type of schedule and potty breaks as younger puppies, they need to go out every 3-4 hours (4 at the longest) Maybe an older puppy, more around 6 month to a year would be better for you, and remember you can't just get a puppy and have it fit into a perfect mould that you want the dog to be.
> I'm also confused on what your definition of an "attack dog" is, do you mean a dog trained in police work? because if thats so than protection training/IPO is basically the same thing, the dog does all the same commands and the same training that police dogs would go threw, (living in Ontario I can also help you find a great trainer of protection based on where you live) I would do tons and tons of research right now on the different types of training and dogs sports. As well as the different types of shepherds i.e. show line, working line, and which one would fit you best, personally i think a properly bred show line, thats not to to big (60-70lbs maybe) that is low to medium energy with a medium drive would fit you best, and that is the type of dog you would be most compatible and happy with. I'll do some research on some great breeders of proper show line GSD's, i'm curious myself  There are show lines that do protection so you shouldn't choose working line just because of that, working line's are intense dogs with needs that many people don't have time, patience, or experience to give them. and with this being your first dog it would be very difficult to handle a working line, or high energy high drive dog, and not for any other reason than you lack of experience, its crazy how having experience can help so much, but don't worry you will get there
> Now for the research that you are doing, i'm confused to if it is for your job, or more the breed researching?


Thanks, that's the part that I don't know too much about -- the ability of show lines to do protection work, etc. I want to eventually do protection work so that I could understand from firsthand experience how it feels and to understand better what folks who are experts tell me about doing that type of work (it's like stepping on a dance floor to understand better what dancers feel when they dance). But I do understand that I first have to get experience and feel for having a dog before I even take it to that level.

In terms of the research, this is something that I would eventually do for my job. I would try understand and explain how certain dogs get criminalized by politicians and the public and whether it is an accurate portrayal. This is just a starting point, which is why it's still hazy. As I meet trainers, owners, breeders and become more familiar with how they socialize and train dogs, the main goals and questions will fall into place.

Thanks for the help!


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

"Management" -- never thought about it that way. Great point -- thanks!


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> where are you in Ontario?
> the OP doesn't want a hyper reactive dog.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm in the Toronto area and it would be great to meet with trainers to get different perspectives -- and to see a variety of GSDs working. Thanks!


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think it is critical that you also speak to the victims of those breeds. Talk about first hand experience.


That's an excellent point -- I hadn't thought about interviewing victims. But I would have to do so to get at how they make meaning out of all of this and to present more than one perspective.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> That's an excellent point -- I hadn't thought about interviewing victims. But I would have to do so to get at how they make meaning out of all of this and to present more than one perspective.


Talk to first responders, ER doctors and nurses, plastic surgeons, police officers, etc.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I wish you luck. I think everyone should have a great GSD. 

I guess I just don't understand your motivation and it makes me uncomfortable TBH. your "research" has no plan, no theory, nothing to prove or work from, just this general idea of wanting "to be closer" to a certain element. And it's just not possible. Sorry. By being close, by interacting you are changing. You want a dog to understand dangerous breeds, but never thought to talk to victims of attack? You want to understand the socioeconomic factors that cause someone to be a thrift but go home to you cozy home and wife every night? 

I don't know. It's just seems very poorly thought out and I don't like bringing a dog into a situation that makes no sense. Sorry.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I wish you luck. I think everyone should have a great GSD.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand your motivation and it makes me uncomfortable TBH. your "research" has no plan, no theory, nothing to prove or work from, just this general idea of wanting "to be closer" to a certain element. And it's just not possible. Sorry. By being close, by interacting you are changing. You want a dog to understand dangerous breeds, but never thought to talk to victims of attack? You want to understand the socioeconomic factors that cause someone to be a thrift but go home to you cozy home and wife every night?
> 
> I don't know. It's just seems very poorly thought out and I don't like bringing a dog into a situation that makes no sense. Sorry.


 

yeah -- something odd here .


quote OP
" But one thing I have learned from my research is that the owner matters a whole lot more than the breed in whether a dog is a danger to the public. So as a university researcher, I've become interested in researching "dangerous" dog breeds and their owners and how dog bans and restrictions may be potentially misguided "

which university?
you must be familiar with meta-analysis?

quote OP
"And to do the research properly, I need to own one of the so-called dangerous dog breeds"

no you don't .
no more than you need to take addictive drugs ,
become anorexic , be a pornographer -- all first hand experiences to understand the dynamics and associated problems each one creates to the person .

as a counter balance you don't need to become a surgeon , a floor trader on the stock exchange , nor 
a member of the opposite sex to understand the daily challenges . 

quote OP
" I also plan to take the dog with me everywhere, especially to my research sites, where I do research in gang and crime-ridden neighborhoods. "

makes no sense -- go to the local police in that jurisdiction and get reports from them 

use the newspaper , daily reports , police call reports .
even our local neighbourhood paper has a column for
fire and police call responses 
- go to the library -- you can do a historical search which will 
allow you to see patterns over time 

then to add this " Except for one day a week, I'll be spending time with the dog every day since I mostly work from home."

how can you go deep undercover into crime ridden areas and do this from home?

good luck .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Plus , as a breeder I wouldn't provide a pup to a person who considers the GSD as a dangerous breed.


It isn't .


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I am skeptical of the research angle too. I'm not going to say why, as others have alluded to it. If you really are a social anthropologist doing field work, I'd have concerns about owning any pets due to the extended travel and likely institution-hopping (moves) that post-docs often face before finding a tenure-track position.

Moreover, anyone who is reluctant to potty train a dog or puppy has no business getting a GSD. Period.

Here's why: All the other training that comes later requires a lot more time, commitment, and patience, so if you can't be bothered with the most basic of skills with a "baby," there's no reason to assume you'll follow through with other harder stuff with an adolescent or adult who isn't nearly as cute. 

IMHO, the apartment is a cop out -- you're either all in for what puppies require, or you're not. And if you're not, please read the puppy threads here about the frustration and stress that will engulf your life. It's not fun to have a GSD pup constantly bite you, tear up your stuff, eat your furniture, growl at the neighbor kids, or worse.

I don't know what good breeders look for in homes for their puppy, but if I were to get an adoption app in rescue for a puppy where the applicant expressed unwillingness to potty train a puppy essentially because it's inconvenient, I doubt that I would be sending a puppy to that home. I kind of have a hunch good breeders who care about where their puppies go would feel similarly.

I'm sorry if this all sounds harsh -- I just want you to do a bit of a reality check on your perspective here.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Also the dogs in the bite or mauling statistics are just given the breed identification base on their looks i imagine most of these dogs are gsd mixes of some sort. Then on top of that i highly doubt that any of those dogs were well bred much less trained in protection with an experienced owner. If you looked at each individually i would assume it would be some combination of a nervy or fearful dog caught off guard or not properly managed on pubic property. Anyone doing serious training with their dogs knows how important it is to have their dog under control at all times and would never push their dogs limits in an uncontrolled environment. So a well bred working line shepherd is pretty much a whole different breed from a showline which is again pretty far removed form a byb dog or gsd mix thats labeled a gsd because it was big and had pointed up ears.

Maybe the reason pits and gsds are so high on the statistics list is because they are 2 of the most common dogs found in america. Pitts are filling all shelters and so many people are breedeing them for protection or to make a quick buck. GSDs used to be the best of the best as working dogs people capitolized on that back yard breeding them and selling them for cheap to anyone with $500 and fond memories of childhood gsds in the 80s.

If you want to do real research compare the statistics as a percentage of total dogs in the US. 100 gsd bites but 10000 gsd in the US vs 50 standard poodle bites out of 1000 poodles in the US. If you look at bites only yea there are more GSD bites but as a percentage the poodle is far more likely to bite. Those numbers are made up and the poodle was used as an example but you get the idea. If i where you i would reanalyze the data try to account for unregistered dogs as well and then see which dog is most likely to bite because i highly doubt it will be a gsd. And then study that dog


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

gsdsar said:


> I wish you luck. I think everyone should have a great GSD.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand your motivation and it makes me uncomfortable TBH. your "research" has no plan, no theory, nothing to prove or work from, just this general idea of wanting "to be closer" to a certain element. And it's just not possible. Sorry. By being close, by interacting you are changing. You want a dog to understand dangerous breeds, but never thought to talk to victims of attack? You want to understand the socioeconomic factors that cause someone to be a thrift but go home to you cozy home and wife every night?
> 
> I don't know. It's just seems very poorly thought out and I don't like bringing a dog into a situation that makes no sense. Sorry.


I'm sorry you feel that way. But as I mentioned before, I have a couple of separate field research projects going on right now that have nothing to do with this topic. And I'm truly immersed and well-versed in those projects and areas (award-winning, actually). So if I haven't fully thought out the ideas for this project, I apologize. This is a new area for me, so I don't fully know the theories, etc., that I would address at this point. This is just a start and I was hoping and open to getting insight from experienced GSD owners and breeders so that I could get to the point where I do know exactly what direction the project should be headed in. 

When you do field research (or participant observation), you often go into a field site with certain ideas and then it changes as you learn more and make new discoveries (the standard model of quantitative research just doesn't work, like hypothesis testing, etc. Look up the differences between "ethnography" and "quantitative research"). Also, I actually live in the field sites that I do research in for part of the year -- and I actually grew up in a crime-ridden neighborhood, which had lots of gangs and drug dealing. This is why I don't feel uncomfortable in those areas and can lay my head there without feeling as though I will be in harm. And believe me, my wife wishes that I stayed at home more often and did not spend so much time in those spaces. So I really don't understand where your criticisms are coming from. You don't know me and I don't know you.

And as I mentioned before, this a long term deal, not something I will start writing about right away. I would even say its an eight to ten-year project since field research takes a long time and I have other projects that still need to be completed. I thought that having a GSD in the meantime would get me acclimated until the moment comes to really work it out and write it up. 

But I suspected that I would get this type of response, but gave the benefit of the doubt that GSD experts would understand that I'm a newbie to the dog and GSD world -- and that there's a lot of things that I won't obviously know. But I appreciate the other helpful responses that I've been getting. And I thank those contributors greatly.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> yeah -- something odd here .
> 
> 
> quote OP
> ...


I live part time in Toronto where I teach and part-time in the US, where I do my crime field research for about 3 to 4 months out of the year. And the same many of your are great at owning, breeding, and training GSDs, I am great at the research I do. This is why I came to this board -- because I know my own work well, but I know nothing about GSD ownership and was hoping for help.

True, to understand something, you don't have to do it. But let's say you want to fully understand drug dealers -- are you just going to rely on just crime statistics or interviews with police? Don't you think it would be better to also live in a neighborhood with high drug dealing activity and eventually meet people who deal drugs and interview them and observe them? You won't be dealing drugs -- that is illegal and unethical -- but you'll be a neighbor to the people who deal the drugs, which give you better insight into what they do. So I really don't understand what's odd about that. The same thing with understanding the world of, let's say, singers. Do you have to get on a stage and sing to fully understand their world? Absolutely not. You can meet them once and interview them. But wouldn't it be better to also be around them a lot while they're preparing for performances, producing tracks in the studio, and seeing how they balance a singing career with family, etc.? 

So why would it be odd to own a dog if one is interested in understanding dog ownership of certain breeds? It's not unethical or illegal to do so. It would also give me more credibility to speak about GSDs if I owned and experienced one. 

I actually think it's odd that people think it's odd for me to want to own a GSD to do research on dog breeds.

I apologize for all of the commotion I have caused. I thought I would receive help . . . but no worries, I will bother no one no more. Back to the drawing board . . .


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

Magwart said:


> I am skeptical of the research angle too. I'm not going to say why, as others have alluded to it. If you really are a social anthropologist doing field work, I'd have concerns about owning any pets due to the extended travel and likely institution-hopping (moves) that post-docs often face before finding a tenure-track position.
> 
> Moreover, anyone who is reluctant to potty train a dog or puppy has no business getting a GSD. Period.
> 
> ...


Your points are well-taken, especially with the apartment issue and I appreciate your input. Thanks.


----------



## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

dont worry about causing comotion a lot of the members her are pasionate abou their dogs and they show it.
check this out though

Rank	Dog Breed	# of Attacks per percent of dogs (based on # of ads)
1	Rottweiler	1603
2	Wolf Hybrid	840
3	Pitbull Terrier	597
4	Bull Mastiff	380
5	Akita	163
6	Boxer	120
7	Chow	77
8	Labrador	64
9	German Shepherd	63
10	Great Dane	44
11	Malamute	43
12	Mastiff	42
13	English Bulldog	40
14	Brittany Spaniel	40
15	Husky	33
16	Sharpei	25
17	Doberman	21
18	Malinois	14
19	Saint Bernard	11
20	Golden Retriever	7


GSD barely made the top 10


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> Plus , as a breeder I wouldn't provide a pup to a person who considers the GSD as a dangerous breed.
> 
> 
> It isn't .


Thank you for your help and insights. Those are definitely things I have to think about. It's interesting that you mention that mixed breeds might be incorrectly pegged as purebred, which then erroneously increases the number of bites, maulings, etc. for a particular breed. I also like your point that some dogs may actually bite more, but not seen as biting more. What could also be happening is that a lot of dog bites go unreported because of the breed that did the biting, like a chihuahua, or even a lab. But I'll definitely look at the statistics more closely, but as I mentioned in a previous post, they get confusing because they come from so many different sources.

But thanks for the insights!


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

source https://mygermanshepherd.org/periodical/are-german-shepherds-dangerous/


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

girardid said:


> dont worry about causing comotion a lot of the members her are pasionate abou their dogs and they show it.
> check this out though
> 
> Rank	Dog Breed	# of Attacks per percent of dogs (based on # of ads)
> ...


Do you have a link for this? Very interested.

ETA: lol we posted at the same time. Thanks


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> Plus , as a breeder I wouldn't provide a pup to a person who considers the GSD as a dangerous breed.
> 
> 
> It isn't .


I never said the GSD was a dangerous breed. In a previous post, I referred to it as a "so-called" dangerous breed and said that's how the public and insurance companies imagine it. So I apologize if there was a misunderstanding. The whole point of my interest is to show how their are misconceptions about certain breeds. Again, I apologize if this wasn't clear.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Do you have a link for this? Very interested.
> 
> ETA: lol we posted at the same time. Thanks


Thanks!! This a great! It even shows how the GSD is sandwiched in between two docile dogs -- the lab and the Great Dane!

It was interesting that last night I told a visiting friend of my interest in getting a GSD and her response was -- "Why in the world would you want to get a GSD? They bite!" I wish I had these stats right in front of me!

I agree being passionate about things dear to you. But when that passion leads to being on the verge of being disrespectful, demeaning, and accusatory, I have to walk away from it. Because if someone reached out to me for help in area that I have expertise in, I would never be condescending or put them down or make them out to be shady. I would be patient and helpful since I know that the person reached out to me out of respect for my knowledge.

So I'll be off of this board, but I'll be taking many of the wonderful suggestions and warnings given to me.

Thanks for all of the help.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> Hi all,
> I was searching for a pet/companion dog with protective instincts and then came across media discussions that criminalized a few dog breeds -- like the GSD, Rottweiler, Doberman, Pitbull, etc.


Odd, but I never saw any significant media discussion criminalizing GSDs, Rotts, or Dobes. Can you document these accusations?




Researcher1 said:


> I also saw how Insurance companies make folks pay more for owning certain breeds and certain towns, provinces, and countries have banned certain breeds altogether. I was shocked.


Interesting, can you name which insurance companies make folks pay more for owning certain breeds? From past discussions on this board, most either insure them or they don't.

Canada has its share of breed attacks, maulings, and fatalities, not to mention breed bans. How can you live in Canada, spend time in the US, and not be aware of such a controversial topic in your own backyard?



Researcher1 said:


> But one thing I have learned from my research is that the owner matters a whole lot more than the breed in whether a dog is a danger to the public.


Sounds like you already have your mind made up, why research? Why not just run with your current documentation? 



Researcher1 said:


> So as a university researcher, I've become interested in researching "dangerous" dog breeds and their owners and how dog bans and restrictions may be potentially misguided.


As a researcher, should not the subject be whether dog bans and restrictions are misguided* or not*? One again, it does not sound like you are seeking to do research, but that you are trying to look for information, real or not, that shores up some preconceived notion you already have formed in your mind.

What is it that you are trying to research about these owners? 



Researcher1 said:


> And to do the research properly, I need to own one of the so-called dangerous dog breeds.


Who defined GSDs as dangerous? Do you think you will find anybody on this board who will aide and abet you in trying to prove your preconceived notion that our breed is dangerous?




Researcher1 said:


> My wife grew up with a GSD and highly recommends that I get one. I also believe that the GSD is the best choice since it's super intelligent, loyal, and attentive -- which is important for someone who's never owned a dog.


This doesn't sound like you are choosing a breed based on it being a dangerous dog but on it being a good pet.



Researcher1 said:


> I want to purchase a GSD from a breeder in the Ontario area. I also prefer a dog from a working line breed since I plan to train it for protection, etc. (though I definitely don't want it to be an "attack" dog). I also plan to take the dog with me everywhere, especially to my research sites, where I do research in gang and crime-ridden neighborhoods. Except for one day a week, I'll be spending time with the dog every day since I mostly work from home.


What is your dog going to do when you bring it to these neighborhoods? Is it going to sit in the car? Is it going to be hanging out with you on corners? 



Researcher1 said:


> My fear in getting an adult GSD from a rescue is that I wouldn't know (at least, I think) whether the dog was conceived through a "backyard breeder," whether it's a pure GSD, and whether it experienced previous traumas and eventually have psychological pop up.


Why would this matter? Your point is to own a dangerous breed dog, no?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Why is it that you want a GSD, other then the fact it has a public perception as a dangerous dog and you aspire to do hands on research in that area? 

This is a living being we are talking about here. 

GSDs - especially working line GSDs - are generally NOT good choices for "newbies" to the dog and shepherd world. 

In your first post you said you wanted a dog with protective instincts - why? Generally speaking most of the breeds with protective instincts are not for unexperienced dog owners. They need solid training, and an owner savvy in dog language to make sure their protective instincts don't kick in at inappropriate times. These are not breeds you can afford to make mistakes with.

I am confused, you say you want to train your dog in protection, but don't want an attack dog? What do you expect your dog to do to protect you? WHY do you want a protection trained dog? Doing protection work is a huge time and money suck. You either absolutely must have dire need for a guardian, or have a love for working dogs and a deep seated appreciation for the elegance of the work to make it happen. Have you ever seen working dogs in action? 

What is your lifestyle like? Are you a runner? Do you have access to areas where a large breed an exercise? Does your apartment even allow the 'dangerous breeds'? Do you mind dog hair and grooming? How often do you travel to work sites? How are you going to accommodate a dog that faces Breed Specific legislation and policies. Many hotels and apartments don't allow GSDs.

I wonder if a GSD is the right choice for your current lifestyle - research ambitions aside.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi Researcher, that sounds like an interesting project. I hope that you find the help and resources that you need. I'm in the wrong location to help you search for breeders. I imagine that it is not terribly hard to find someone willing to sell an older puppy. That said, GSDs require more time and effort than many breeds (training, exercise, socialization, ect,) especially a working line GSD. I think others might be more inclined to help if they were assured that you were committed to providing all of those things. A GSD will probably live 13-15 years and may outlive the research project. I'm sure this goes without saying, but make sure that you want the dog for more than just research. If you really want a dog, and are willing to put in the work to raise it properly, I'm sure that the experienced people on this site will help you find a breeder.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> Also, I actually live in the field sites that I do research in for part of the year -- and I actually grew up in a crime-ridden neighborhood, which had lots of gangs and drug dealing. This is why I don't feel uncomfortable in those areas and can lay my head there without feeling as though I will be in harm.


How did your research substantiate your feeling of safety in a crime ridden neighborhood?



Researcher1 said:


> But I suspected that I would get this type of response, but gave the benefit of the doubt that GSD experts would understand that I'm a newbie to the dog and GSD world -- and that there's a lot of things that I won't obviously know. But I appreciate the other helpful responses that I've been getting. And I thank those contributors greatly.


We are supposed to understand that you as a newbie claims to have found numerous media reports on the dangers of GSDs, while those of us who have followed such things for years have found that to not be the reality but you as a newbie is not expected to understand why your unfounded, unsavory and preconceived notions aren't being met with open arms? What response did you expect?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> So I'll be off of this board, but I'll be taking many of the wonderful suggestions and warnings given to me.


Looks like the OP won't be back to answer any more quedtions. 

Ah well.

Hope everything works out for the sake of whatever dog they end up with...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Researcher1 said:


> So why would it be odd to own a dog if one is interested in understanding dog ownership of certain breeds?


This is not what you said in your opening statement, you said you wanted to own a breed purported to be dangerous. Do you have lion tamer's syndrome?



Researcher1 said:


> It's not unethical or illegal to do so. It would also give me more credibility to speak about GSDs if I owned and experienced one. .


But you said you wanted to own and experience a dog of a dangerous breed. You speak as if GSDs are dangerous breeds. Therein lies the confusion. Your preconceived notion does not make it so.



Researcher1 said:


> I actually think it's odd that people think it's odd for me to want to own a GSD to do research on dog breeds..


Rinse and repeat above comments. First you said you want to research dangerous dog breeds and the impact of banning and breed restricitions, or should I clarify that to read your opinion of negative impact. Now you want to research dog breeds. Which one is it?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe it would be better if you put away the clipboard and spent some time around a few dogs. See if you like them. Carefully allow a little bit of emotion into the research.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Magwart said:


> I am skeptical of the research angle too. I'm not going to say why, as others have alluded to it. If you really are a social anthropologist doing field work, I'd have concerns about owning any pets due to the extended travel and likely institution-hopping (moves) that post-docs often face before finding a tenure-track position.
> 
> Moreover, anyone who is reluctant to potty train a dog or puppy has no business getting a GSD. Period.
> 
> ...


I have to admit wondering this stuff too. I can't speak for a breeder because I'm not one, but as a purchaser I highly doubt I'd have been able to work with a good breeder if I didn't demonstrate my commitment to teach the pup what it needed to know, including housebreaking and house manners. 

My experience as a buyer was a sense that the breeder wanted to know that I understood at least on paper what I was getting myself into (lived reality being different from research on paper) and was committed to doing my best to raise the puppy to be a good dog who would be a joy to live with. In other words, a successful, permanent placement.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is not what you said in your opening statement, you said you wanted to own a breed purported to be dangerous. Do you have lion tamer's syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even if it was what he said in the original statement it is no reason to get a dog. If you want to understand dog owners, get a dog? No, I don't think so. If you want a dog, to train, play with, work with, live with, enjoy, get a dog. If you don't want a dog for those reasons, how in the world can you understand people who want a dog for those and many other reasons? You can only understand dog owners who have a dog to try to be able to understand dog owners. 

You want a bad-ass dog with working lines and protection capabilities, who is ready to take on all comers, but you have enough energy for a painted turtle. You need a show line dog or a stuffed animal. But I am with Carmspak on not selling a pup or dog to someone whose main motivation is some form of research. Dogs aren't projects, they are sentient beings and house training is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to keeping a dog in the situation you are talking about.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Researcher1 said:


> Thank you for your help and insights. Those are definitely things I have to think about. It's interesting that you mention that mixed breeds might be incorrectly pegged as purebred, which then erroneously increases the number of bites, maulings, etc. for a particular breed. I also like your point that some dogs may actually bite more, but not seen as biting more. What could also be happening is that a lot of dog bites go unreported because of the breed that did the biting, like a chihuahua, or even a lab. But I'll definitely look at the statistics more closely, but as I mentioned in a previous post, they get confusing because they come from so many different sources.
> 
> But thanks for the insights!


But I didn't say that , even if it is correct .
Check your attributions.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Why is it that you want a GSD, other then the fact it has a public perception as a dangerous dog and you aspire to do hands on research in that area?
> 
> This is a living being we are talking about here.
> 
> ...


I wasn't going to respond to any more comments since it seems like some folk's have become obsessed with discrediting me -- which is strange because I admitted several times that I didn't know much and asked for help in clarifying several things. 

And for the record, in my first post I put "dangerous" in quotes as a sign that that's not something I believe, but that others do. This is why in my first post, I also used the term "so-called." I thought this would show that I didn't believe that GSDs were dangerous, but that others do.

But I appreciate the way Voodoolamb addressed his/her concerns. I didn't know that protection training led to an "attack" dog. When I used the word "attack," I meant it as a term that referred to an out of control dog. The newbie in me didn't know better since I've never been around protection training or trainers, so I inappropriately threw the word around. 

As to why I would be interested in protection training -- I figured that if it's something that I would be learning about, why not do it? (The same way I would do advanced obedience training, etc.) I also believe that -- and I could be wrong -- it's an ultra way of training and creating a connection between the dog and owner. I'm sure that it requires a high level of commitment, but I'm willing to do it. 

Even if I wasn't thinking of potentially doing this type of research, a GSD would still be absolutely high on my list. I've looked deeply into several different dog breeds and the GSD stands out as being highly intelligent, eager to please (especially in terms of work), and loyal. Also, my wife grew up with a GSD and REALLY wants me to get one (and her 100 percent support is really important to me). As I mentioned in my first post, I'm going to a get a dog regardless. Why not have it be one with all of the qualities I just named above?

In terms of activities, I'm a serious walker, especially when I'm doing field research. So my dog would be with me at all times and doing tons of walking through neighborhoods. I also enjoy going to the park and throwing a ball around (but my son is older now and prefers to play with friends), so I'll make sure to find an open field, lake, beach, etc., where I could throw a ball around with my dog. I would also be interested in doing various types of training with my dog -- even if it's a money suck. It would be exciting and rewarding for my dog and me.

I really like Strom's advice -- make sure to get around dogs to get a feel for them. I do love dogs. The neighborhoods that I study are filled with dogs and I really have grown fond of them as I play with them during my visits. I just want to have my own now. But I will make sure to attend GSD events and meet with people who are highly committed to training. Maybe then I'll see that a GSD is not for me. Or maybe I'll see that it is.

Again, I appreciate the concerns you have raised, which gives me lots to think about.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

selzer said:


> Even if it was what he said in the original statement it is no reason to get a dog. If you want to understand dog owners, get a dog? No, I don't think so. If you want a dog, to train, play with, work with, live with, enjoy, get a dog. If you don't want a dog for those reasons, how in the world can you understand people who want a dog for those and many other reasons? You can only understand dog owners who have a dog to try to be able to understand dog owners.
> 
> You want a bad-ass dog with working lines and protection capabilities, who is ready to take on all comers, but you have enough energy for a painted turtle. You need a show line dog or a stuffed animal. But I am with Carmspak on not selling a pup or dog to someone whose main motivation is some form of research. Dogs aren't projects, they are sentient beings and house training is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to keeping a dog in the situation you are talking about.


How do you know how much energy I have? Have you met me? This is what I'm talking about. I also mentioned that I was going to get a dog regardless, not only for research purposes. I said this in my first post. I don't understand the hostility of some folks on this board.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Magwart said:


> I am skeptical of the research angle too. I'm not going to say why, as others have alluded to it. If you really are a social anthropologist doing field work, I'd have concerns about owning any pets due to the extended travel and likely institution-hopping (moves) that post-docs often face before finding a tenure-track position.
> 
> Moreover, anyone who is reluctant to potty train a dog or puppy has no business getting a GSD. Period.
> 
> ...




yes , I like this also.


when you are shopping for your pup , you want the best possible pup possible , so right there not within your research parameters.
Secondly part of your "research" involves this , quote "researching "dangerous" dog breeds and their owners "
So how do you interview , research yourself?


what is the purpose or the function of the GSD when you mostly work from home ?


remember in bite statistics for the GSD breed that includes ALL , including legitimate bites by dogs in law enforcement / military . That skews things a bit. 


all I know is that I have discovered two great names for some female pups 


Fossey (Dian) 
Goodall (Jane)


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> But I didn't say that , even if it is correct .
> Check your attributions.


I responded to your post by mistake. Sorry to get you worked up about this. I'm not here to start fights.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> yes , I like this also.
> 
> 
> when you are shopping for your pup , you want the best possible pup possible , so right there not within your research parameters.
> ...


I don't understand what you mean, "How will you interview yourself?" I can speak to my experiences the same way anyone on this board can speak to their experiences with a GSD.

When I say I work mostly from home, I mean that I don't have to be at an "office" from 9am to 5pm, or whatever hours. I can work from home for several hours, go outside and do research for several hours, etc. I don't have to be"somewhere" unless I'm teaching or in a brief meeting.

But at this point, regardless of my situation (and I thought working from home was a "plus"), and no matter what I say, it looks like some folks will say, "you can't have a GSD." Even if I provide training and exercises, it just won't be enough. Which is fine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Researcher1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new to this board, but I've been following the great posts for the past year or so. I've never owned a dog, but have always wanted one, and now I'm finally in a work/financial position to do so. I was searching for a pet/companion dog with protective instincts and then came across media discussions that criminalized a few dog breeds -- like the GSD, Rottweiler, Doberman, Pitbull, etc. I also saw how Insurance companies make folks pay more for owning certain breeds and certain towns, provinces, and countries have banned certain breeds altogether. I was shocked.
> 
> ...


You don't have the energy to house train your dog. You mostly work from home, but cannot imagine running a pup outside 8-10 times a day. Tip of the ice-berg man, you want a working line dog, but you aren't understanding that puppies, yes 12-16 week old puppies have energy. And the more intelligent they are, the more important it is for YOU to channel that energy into proper venues, else that puppy is going to get out of hand. You don't have to worry about a dog maybe having some psychological issues from some past trauma, you will be cause the dog to go bananas. 

We are passionate about the dogs. And the expectations that some people have for puppies. Because we have puppies, and we are sometimes frightened by who is out there wanting to bring them home.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have a working line dog that is not high drive, but he does have a lot of energy. However, he knows how to stop working when I tell him to, and has a lot of down time. My most challenging and most active dog was a WGSL, who was both high drive and extremely high energy. I don't understand why everyone here says otherwise. It depends on the dogs, the breeder, the parents, and which dogs are sold as pets vs working dogs. Our breeder pulls out the higher drive dogs for working homes and the lower drive for pet homes.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

selzer said:


> You don't have the energy to house train your dog. You mostly work from home, but cannot imagine running a pup outside 8-10 times a day. Tip of the ice-berg man, you want a working line dog, but you aren't understanding that puppies, yes 12-16 week old puppies have energy. And the more intelligent they are, the more important it is for YOU to channel that energy into proper venues, else that puppy is going to get out of hand. You don't have to worry about a dog maybe having some psychological issues from some past trauma, you will be cause the dog to go bananas.
> 
> We are passionate about the dogs. And the expectations that some people have for puppies. Because we have puppies, and we are sometimes frightened by who is out there wanting to bring them home.


Well said, and I completely understand your point. But I'm talking mostly from living in a condo building on a high floor and the need to take the elevator, etc., and then not making it in time. If I lived in a single-family home, then it wouldn't be a problem. So it's not about "energy" or "commitment," it's about probably never making it out in time to properly teach a pup that it needs to go outside not inside. But I'll start looking into moving into a single-family home to deal better with this issue -- thanks!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have a working line dog that is not high drive, but he does have a lot of energy. However, he knows how to stop working when I tell him to, and has a lot of down time. My most challenging and most active dog was a WGSL, who was both high drive and extremely high energy. I don't understand why everyone here says otherwise. It depends on the dogs, the breeder, the parents, and which dogs are sold as pets vs working dogs. Our breeder pulls out the higher drive dogs for working homes and the lower drive for pet homes.


Yes but, the chances are better to get a dog without very high energy, very high drive, if you are not breeding for it. Yes you can get it in WGSL, that's why they can do protection, and they can do police work, and they can do just about whatever you want for them to do. But, you are far less likely to get a dog whose energy requirements are so high that it has trouble managing in a home like this one, who really wants a dog that is low-medium drive.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Oops. Double post.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Op - Welcome back and thank you for clarifying some things. 

Definitely get out there and meet some dogs. See if there is an IPO club near you that you can watch training. 

Hint: bring donuts. These IPO guys are easily bribed with food and well talk your ear off about their dog's when plied with sugary fried goodness. That is actually how I found my pup. I was the dog less weirdo that showed up to schutzhund practice with food lol I had half the club putting out feelers for dogs for me. They wanted to make sure I got a pup, and not just ANY pup, but the right pup, in my hands so they wouldn't lose the hook up j/k


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You know, one of the best vets I ever knew said that little dogs and mutts were responsible for the most bites, but then no one logs them in the list.

Only dog that I ever sustained a real 'bite' from was a toy poodle.

On the other hand, had a GSD puppy - talking about 10 weeks old, that was quick. I was throwing a stick for him and his razor sharp puppy teeth grazed the back of my hand - where skin is thin. Had to go to one of those quick care places... they recorded it as a 'bite,' though I explained the circumstances. Two days later a guy from the county comes to impound my dangerous dog.

Took a bit to talk him out of it, but pup was branded as a dangerous dog!

Crazy


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

zyppi said:


> You know, one of the best vets I ever knew said that little dogs and mutts were responsible for the most bites, but then no one logs them in the list.
> 
> Only dog that I ever sustained a real 'bite' from was a toy poodle.
> 
> ...


Yeah. That is a bit crazy. A 10 week old pup *shakes head*

My dog bit a person who assaulted me. Totally provoked and warranted bite. Had to deal with an animal control investigation, quarantine and all that. I had bruises and had to deal with pressing charges on the [email protected]#&%× and had to deal with animal control questioning my neighbors and myself gathering evidence that my dog was stable. 

A few years ago I got the crap bit out of me by my BF's shepherd. Bad bites too. I Refused to go to urgent care (dog was up to date on his shots and I had a tetanus booster the year before.) to protect the dog. Made the BF take the money he would have paid for my Dr visits and then I matched it and made him use it for training. Love my bf. Love his dog. But realistically - he shouldn't have had a shepherd! Now we all get on swimmingly even though I have some wicked scars, and the BF has become a much better dog owner. 

Probably should have had those bites reported. Goes to show another way the statistics can be skewed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

zyppi said:


> You know, one of the best vets I ever knew said that little dogs and mutts were responsible for the most bites, but then no one logs them in the list.
> 
> Only dog that I ever sustained a real 'bite' from was a toy poodle.
> 
> ...


Repeat after me, rosebush, rosebush, you accidentally ran into a rosebush trying to catch a frisbee.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Repeat after me, rosebush, rosebush, you accidentally ran into a rosebush trying to catch a frisbee.


Ok. I read that while taking a drink. MAWL. You owe me a new keyboard


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Ok. I read that while taking a drink. MAWL. You owe me a new keyboard


LOL! Sorry!

I have used that one before working with feral cats.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> LOL! Sorry!
> 
> I have used that one before working with feral cats.


I like it.


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Op - Welcome back and thank you for clarifying some things.
> 
> Definitely get out there and meet some dogs. See if there is an IPO club near you that you can watch training.
> 
> Hint: bring donuts. These IPO guys are easily bribed with food and well talk your ear off about their dog's when plied with sugary fried goodness. That is actually how I found my pup. I was the dog less weirdo that showed up to schutzhund practice with food lol I had half the club putting out feelers for dogs for me. They wanted to make sure I got a pup, and not just ANY pup, but the right pup, in my hands so they wouldn't lose the hook up j/k


Thanks for the advice -- I'll make sure to bring the goodies when I visit the clubs! It should be fun talk to the experienced and to the experts while I watch them eat!


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Researcher1 said:


> ...
> But I'm still completing a current field research project in the states so this is more of a long term deal. I want to own a GSD to experience *for a few years* what it's like to be GSD owner -- the good and bad.
> ...


I don't really care about your "research". But I do care about the dog after those few years. What are you planning to do with the dog after you complete this research? You do know the GSD's life expectancy is more than a few years, right?


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## Researcher1 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexg said:


> I don't really care about your "research". But I do care about the dog after those few years. What are you planning to do with the dog after you complete this research? You do know the GSD's life expectancy is more than a few years, right?


I mean that I really can't speak to the experiences of having a GSD or get any insights until I've had one for several years. In other words, the same way a parent can't really speak to being a parent until they've raised a child for several years . . . 

At this point, I'm frustrated with the accusations and assumptions that some folks -- not all -- on this board are making. The way these folks are lifting a few words here and there out of the contexts of my TOTAL posts is just incredible, which makes me wonder about their character and intentions -- and level of maturity.

In my first post, I mentioned that I was interested in a dog for myself and as I researched breeds I became interested in the "dangerous" dog debates, ordinances, etc. And then I thought that it might be a good idea to do future research on this (just an "idea"). In other words, I was a getting a dog before I became interested in the research. And I mentioned this same thing in another post: that I would be getting a dog regardless of the research and that the GSD had always been on the top of my list because of its super intelligence and loyalty, and especially because my wife grew up with one and wants one again. I don't know how many other ways I can say this: I'm getting a dog regardless of the research, regardless of what some people on this board think, and I want one to live with and be my companion until the end. And if I was just in it to have a "badass" dog by my side, I would've gone for the mastiff breeds, like the cane corso, dogo argentino, boerboel, etc., the ones that have the massive size and humongous heads. Again, the GSD appealed to me because of its intelligence and versatility.


I hope everyone gets it this time. But I'm really "out of here." This is just getting to be frustrating. But I have to say that the experience on this board has given me good insight into the some of type of folks involved in the breeding/GSD world. At the same time, I cannot let my frustrations get the best of me because some of you have been really helpful and tried to steer me in the right direction. I really appreciate that, thank you. But life is too short to deal with those other folks. I don't know what they're trying to prove with all of their "I gotcha!" accusations. At times, I've felt like I was in middle school all over again. Been there, done that, I'm out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

??? What does massive size and humongous heads have to do with being a "bad ass"? 

Being "bad ass" is about behavior, not about appearance.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I hope everyone gets it this time. But I'm really "out of here." This is just getting to be frustrating. *But I have to say that the experience on this board has given me good insight into the some of type of folks involved in the breeding/GSD world. *At the same time, I cannot let my frustrations get the best of me because some of you have been really helpful and tried to steer me in the right direction. I really appreciate that, thank you. But life is too short to deal with those other folks. I don't know what they're trying to prove with all of their "I gotcha!" accusations. At times, I've felt like I was in middle school all over again. Been there, done that, I'm out.


That's just part of this board and the internet... Some people on here have nothing better to do then argue, continue being chatty, and or just even like talking to themselves or prove everyone else wrong..

You take what you can use and you move on.. No need to let a few people you will never meet frustrate you and one of the best features on here is to learn how to use the block button.. :smile2:


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