# Another Genetics question.



## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

I know the Genetics vs environment thread was just locked, and i dont mean to begin another thread of bickering but the topic sparked a question in my mind...

My question is can does temperament water down if not practiced in a litters parents? also can environmental damage to a dogs temperament be passed down?

For example if there is a litter coming and the sire and dam are both just household pets, never been tested or used their drive to hone any skills. BUT both of the parents of the dam and sire are SCH3 titled and excellent temperament. Assuming they passed down a good set of nerves and temperament to the sire and dam, is it going to again be passed down to the litter, or will it be watered down a bit due to never having practiced it?

Another example is if a litter is coming from a sire and dam with SCH3 perfect temperament, but the dam was abused heavily later in life so she is now reactive/shy/aggressive. will these traits be passed down at all? If not, then when does genetics begin to go wrong? only with bad pairings for a litter?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I know experiments have been done where the pups from a calm mother with good nerves were placed with a fearful mother with poor nerves, and as I recall, the pups became fearful too.

Need to check my facts on this, and find the actual study and details but don't have time. Maybe someone else can do that?


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> I know experiments have been done where the pups from a calm mother with good nerves were placed with a fearful mother with poor nerves, and as I recall, the pups became fearful too.
> 
> Need to check my facts on this, and find the actual study and details but don't have time. Maybe someone else can do that?


I dont know if you're referencing my 'if the dam was abused' scenario, while what you said makes sense for sure, lets say the sire was the abused one mostly asking for the sake of how genetics are passed down. What you said does make sense though, im sure the first 6 weeks of the mother caring for her litter and the litter mates interacting are very crucial in a dogs development.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ronin, the pups learn from the mom. I f the sire were abused it would have zero effect.

And I still think the pups from the abused mom, who otherwise had solid genetics, would turn out better than pups from a genetically fearful mom!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

OK. Just to clarify before someone reads this thread and breeds their junk male. If a female is strong and has solid nerves. But, the sire is a complete nerve bag, the fathers bad nerves can be passed onto pups no matter how the mom cares for the newborn pups.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It's not that the nerve strength gets diluted because the parents never got to develop their potential through training and trialing, it got diluted because without training and trialing the parents, the breeder can't make appropriate judgement as to wether the male and female should be bred. 

You can breed two World-Level Sch dogs together, and get a litter of nothing but easy-going, low drive pets (I know a World level competitor who did this with his bitch, none of the pups had the energy level or drive to be suitable for SchH, not even club level - it can happen). 

So the nerve strength dilution happens because let's say, someone looks at a pedigree of one of the pups from the littler above and thinks, "WOW!!! SchH III parents of World-Level potential - I can breed this pup and have police dogs, SAR dogs, PP dogs, Schutzhund dogs!" and they do, and advertise them as such, but dogs are really only suited to be couch warmers. But if they had take the time and effort to do things correctly, and see what the dogs in front of them bring to the breeding (as opposed to the just relying on the pedigree), and trained and (tried) to trial, they would have seen that, though a wonderful pet, the dog was not working dog material, and didn't have the nerve strength to stand up and deal with stressors that a training environment brings out. 

Or someone can spend years working on getting a weak nerved dog titled, and one day, all their training pays off, and the dog earns a SchHI. Just because they have a SchH I doesn't magically make them strong nerved and breeding material. It is still a weak nerved dog with a log of training gone into it. Might look good on the outside, but it is the inside genetics that will get passed on if bred, not the owners training effort.


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

Castlemaid said:


> It's not that the nerve strength gets diluted because the parents never got to develop their potential through training and trialing, it got diluted because without training and trialing the parents, the breeder can't make appropriate judgement as to wether the male and female should be bred.
> 
> You can breed two World-Level Sch dogs together, and get a litter of nothing but easy-going, low drive pets (I know a World level competitor who did this with his bitch, none of the pups had the energy level or drive to be suitable for SchH, not even club level - it can happen).
> 
> ...




awesome thanks for all the info. Though i feel like you really focused on the titling aspect of my question and how it can be misleading/how its used as a test to see whats worth breeding not to hone skills. MY fault for also focusing on that in my examples.

My overarching question im still a little unclear on. Do strong genetics ever water down or dilute over generations of just being a backyard dog/ or even as quick as one generation or two of something more severe than being a backyard dog like being abused?(i mean that last part in the sense of an otherwise strong genetically sire having nervous pups due to him being nervous later in life due to abuse) I know like you said even 2 world class dogs can supply a litter of couch potatoes, we'll say thats the floor of the genetic pool they were working with, does the cap/ceiling eventually lower though? Excuse me if i am repeating myself or if you feel you already answered this, maybe just re clarify. Im not saying this is the case im just genuinely curious if genes eventually lose quality over generations of just stagnation. I guess its not so much a question of genes vs environment in a single dog, but how environment effects genes over generations. 

p.s. i feel like im repeating myself, if i am im sorry, im very uneducated about genes and reproducing in pups so forgive me and try not to get impatient i'm having a bit of trouble articulating my question properly.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Learned behaviour cannot be inherited. So, if your dog is allowed to be a couch potato, its offspring will not inherit that.

However, as Castlemaid has said, not selecting for parents that can perform and get titles can weaken the gene pool, because you don't KNOW what you're breeding unless you TEST it through training. You don't necessarily have to get titles on the dog, but you do have to do enough with it to determine its strengths and weaknesses.

THEN you can make an informed decision as to whether there are enough strengths there to make the dog worth breeding.

I, too, have seen dogs from genetically good stock that really were only suited to be pets. Their owner didn't like to hear that when she tried to do schutzhund with them, but it was true!

In breeding you get what you select for. If you want dogs that can work, you select for that. If you only breed the dogs that do well in the show ring, of course, over time, the working ability is going to deteriorate because you aren't selecting for it.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

The genetics can disappear if they aren't watched because if the individual being bred. I'm going with a physical example. You have two excellent OFA scored dogs that are bred together. There is going to be a variety of factor in the pups just because the parents are excellent rated doesn't guarantee the parents will be. So somebody assumes since the parents are excellent the puppy will be. Let's say they choose a female puppy To breed, it's an OFA good, but they never x-ray her so they don't actually know her hip score. They breed her to a male also with good hips. Now they choose a puppy from the OFA good female, which they also don't x-ray. This puppy turns out to be an OFA poor. However since they don't x-ray this puppy they don't know she has poor hips.they just assume she has good pups, so they breed her and she has puppies with good and poor hips. And it's started declining with more puppies with poor hips if they keep not testing. 

Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense. But basically, there is going to be a variety of puppies in a litter. It's nature, some will be 'better' that others. If you keep doing testing you will find the 'better' puppies and breed them. However if you stop testing you don't know if you're choosing 'better' puppies or 'poorer' puppies. Overtime without the testing since you aren't selecting for the best you'll most likely see a decline in 'quality'.

Breeding two superior specimens should produce superior offspring. But genetics can combine in weird ways and give different outcomes. Take two human siblings, same parents but the genetics combine differently in each child. Unless they're identical twins ect. So the kids will look different and probably like different things.


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

seriously thanks for all the replies folks, i got nothing more to ask or discuss. unless anyone has something new they wanna add. again thanks.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Recent thinking suggests that the answer to OP’s question is a highly qualified, _maybe, depending on the species (even among identical twin pairs), the trait in question, as well as the immediate environment._ Below are a couple of relevant articles. The first is not directly on point, but sets the stage for the second article which is: 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201509/what-behaviors-do-we-inherit-genes
Epigenetics & Inheritance

It's complicated...

Aly


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

RoninByDesign said:


> I know the Genetics vs environment thread was just locked, and i dont mean to begin another thread of bickering but the topic sparked a question in my mind...
> 
> My question is can does temperament water down if not practiced in a litters parents? also can environmental damage to a dogs temperament be passed down?
> 
> ...


So there is this thing referred to as genetic memory. It has been studied in rats but not much in dogs. Its pretty interesting. Basically if you ingrain a behavior in mom that aids in survival her young wil inherit the potential for that behavior without mom present. If the behavior is promoted through those offspring it becomes a trait in subsequent generations.
After several generations of working the behavior even if you let it go for a few it remains there to be brought out in later generations. Think of egg suckers or tree climbers. Two behaviors not common in most dogs but they appear in specific lines. Fence climbing is another.


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> So there is this thing referred to as genetic memory. It has been studied in rats but not much in dogs. Its pretty interesting. Basically if you ingrain a behavior in mom that aids in survival her young wil inherit the potential for that behavior without mom present. If the behavior is promoted through those offspring it becomes a trait in subsequent generations.
> After several generations of working the behavior even if you let it go for a few it remains there to be brought out in later generations. Think of egg suckers or tree climbers. Two behaviors not common in most dogs but they appear in specific lines. Fence climbing is another.


now thats what i've been wondering. Thats really interesting. I mean i figured most species are constantly evolving in some way so genetics must constantly be changing based on environment however minor. Just like how temperaments we desire are in dogs of today, they had to start somewhere so environment must effect genes to some extent. 

Now I know it's not completely relating to genetic memory since it has nothing to do with survival but can it go backwards or dilute at all? obviously most in the thread are saying no, and maybe not, but as a thought, if we took EVERY GSD and made them homebodies just relaxing with no work, or even play that appeals to drives, after many generations wouldnt the drives/temperament water down? even if we paired breeding perfectly to try and prevent it.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Learned behaviour cannot be inherited. So, if your dog is allowed to be a couch potato, its offspring will not inherit that.
> 
> I, too, have seen dogs from genetically good stock that really were only suited to be pets. Their owner didn't like to hear that when she tried to do schutzhund with them, but it was true!



That describes my Girl-dog. The smallest of a litter of 11 she may have learned her behavior from getting knocked around by her litter-mates or the gene mix didn't build the confidence in her I'd want to see in an IPO dog. Don't know. Too bad because she has great drive~

This is a good question. If you want to find out a bit more about genetics and behavior you can follow the blog over at Darwin's Dogs
https://darwinsdogs.org/?pg=blog




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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think environment has a role. Good genetics allows for adaption of its environment. Interesting articles.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Genetics is such a deep subject that it gets really mind boggling after 3 or 4 generations. Computers have made it statistically possible to predict results reasonably accurately if enough data is presented.

For some humor in this deep well;
The military has a way to teach about anything to anybody. A guy I went to HS with was so inept he had a hard time with retractable pens let alone drive. He had a hard time just walking reasonably straight. Yet he went into the Air Force and became a fighter pilot. He flew for an entire 20 year career.

As a lifetime mech eng we learned that we could do anything mechanical and tools were just extensions of our hands and minds. Now electrical eng on the other hand lived in the realm of electrons and wires. They were capable of using only one tool...Phillips screwdriver. Any other tools they needed special training and certification to use. As long as we each stayed on our own side of the fence, all was good.

And a note about Schutzhud. As noted it's not at all uncommon for dogs brought into the sport/test to fail or be unsuited. It's what the test was designed to do. Separate these from the acceptable standard. It's not that these dogs can't be good pets, they just do not fit the breeding test. Even with lengthy Sch parents on both sides you still get drop out. It's just not as likely.

Byron


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

''even if we paired breeding perfectly to prevent it."

Ronin, just HOW do you do that, without testing the dogs to see what they are capable of doing? It's just not possible!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Two quick things. First, one implication of the above articles is that our perspective on genetic influences, in this discussion, isn't broad enough. Epigenetic effects (i.e., environmental effects on genes themselves, not just on genetic expression) may only be observed over _multiple_ generations. So, to talk about genetic influences in a single litter or in a single generation of litters, for example, is short sighted and risks 'confirmation bias.'

Second, talking about genetic vs. environmental effects as though they operate independently of one another misses the point. It's _not _an additive model, in which, for example, genetic effects can be "diluted" by varying environments or the reverse. The behaviors that we observe are the result of interactions between these two broad influences. 

As I said, it's complicated.

A personal aside: I often wonder whether the dog fancy, broadly speaking, doesn't suffer from the loss of the big breeders/kennels of past centuries _and _their records. Some of those 'old-timers' bred, multiple lines, for decades, often conducting test breedings along the way. Rather like what some hunts do today, though on a much smaller scale. The goal wasn't just to produce a conformationally perfect specimen; functionality also was a major consideration. Sad to think of the knowledge lost. 

Aly


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> ''even if we paired breeding perfectly to prevent it."
> 
> Ronin, just HOW do you do that, without testing the dogs to see what they are capable of doing? It's just not possible!


thats a fair point, we'll just assume we could measure a dogs genetics/drive in a lab with a blood sample. Obviously this isnt a real scenario, just as making EVERY gsd a housedog isnt a realistic scenario. I was more just thinking outloud in regards to if it would water down after generations of no work/practice. I know alot of this is asinine... im just tryna have a conversation about it and think about it haha hope it aint too annoying, genetics are really interesting. Clearly i have alot to learn on the subject, i never really thought deeply about it until looking for a pup.

and @Aly i really appreciate you sharing all the info and articles. you're way more educated on the subject than i am.


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

Aly said:


> Second, talking about genetic vs. environmental effects as though they operate independently of one another misses the point. It's _not _an additive model, in which, for example, genetic effects can be "diluted" by varying environments or the reverse. The behaviors that we observe are the result of interactions between these two broad influences.
> 
> As I said, it's complicated.
> 
> ...


I think i get what you're saying here, basically the behaviors we measure as 'drive' or 'temperament' are a mix of genetics interacting with environment in a seamless way? Like we can't just have genetics in a vacuum with no environment, in a way environment tests/molds genetics and the other way around constantly, so thinking about them as separate is not the right way to approach it?

but wouldnt you say/isnt there atleast 'some' genetic traits that are determined before environment is a big factor? Of course when we measure them they are being effected by environment in one way or another but there are some underlying traits from strictly DNA right? Like coat color, but obviously more on the temperament or drive side of things. Or is there no Independence(or anything predetermined?) at all like you said? 

Of course philosophically i suppose there might be no genetics without an environment to interact with, just like you cant have solid objects without empty space "*You cant have an experience of nothing; Nature abhors a vacuum*" to quote my favorite person alan watts. But all that aside, if we let dogs just sit around without being tested or practiced for hundreds of years, wouldnt drives and temperaments dilute? (or whatever word you wanna use, i dont wanna get hung up on semantics). 

I may be wrong, or framing it wrong in my head or be a bit too zoomed in or out in my perspective but i'm curious on your thoughts. just looking for clarity. And alot of these questions have no real end or purpose, like my initial question. its just for me to get a better grasp on the subject.

EDIT: also full disclosure i havent read the articles yet, its been a hectic morning but i have em bookmarked and plan to, forgive me if they already answered my question.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

When I got my female Athena her Genetics were already established. Her prey drive was already sky high. I done no prey drive building with her. I remember how mouthy she was as a pup. I remember putting on my carhart jacket one morning when she was 6 months old or so and her attacking my arm like it was instinctual. I sat down to put on my boots and she bit my arm with a calm full bite like she had done it 100 times before. I never worked on bite work with her. Her desire to work to have a purpose, Her willingness to work for food, or for tug, or ball were already there I done no deprivation to build drive. All of this was long before I decided to start training schutzhund. These things are exactly the reason I started training schutzund. She was going to do all of these things whether her environment encouraged or discouraged them. So why not channel these things into training and discipline.
I imagine this is why so many dogs wind up in shelters or being rehomed. People don't even realize that they are fighting Genetics.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> So there is this thing referred to as genetic memory. It has been studied in rats but not much in dogs. Its pretty interesting. Basically if you ingrain a behavior in mom that aids in survival her young wil inherit the potential for that behavior without mom present. If the behavior is promoted through those offspring it becomes a trait in subsequent generations.
> After several generations of working the behavior even if you let it go for a few it remains there to be brought out in later generations. Think of egg suckers or tree climbers. Two behaviors not common in most dogs but they appear in specific lines. Fence climbing is another.


Here's a little video touching on this topic.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ronin in response to your OP, when the litter arrives, what did the puppies directly receive from the training/titles and what did the puppies receive from the genetics of the parents. I hope that question isn’t controversial, but it may give insights to your opening queries.( I don’t mean to hurt the feelings of people who title their dogs, I apologize if I do&#55358;&#56631;*♀).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Very true, Cliff, but while it might not matter for one or even 2 generations, eventually the old saying "use it or lose it" will start to apply. Good example can be seen in the border collie and why the working BC people fought so hard to prevent AKC recognition. They knew the ultimate results.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You may be right, Lisa, I was just trying to get OP to logically look at one of his initial questions. All breedings are good if you have the right dogs.


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

lhczth said:


> Very true, Cliff, but while it might not matter for one or even 2 generations, eventually the old saying "use it or lose it" will start to apply. Good example can be seen in the border collie and why the working BC people fought so hard to prevent AKC recognition. They knew the ultimate results.


Im really interested, what is it you are referencing in regards to border collies? Why did they fight hard to stop AKC recognition and what did it result in/prevent?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Because all AKC cares about is that a dog can trot around the ring looking pretty. They care very little for working ability. Because of this, many breeds are now split into working line and show line.

The border collie is a very high energy dog, and many BC breeders will not let their pups go to anything but a working home. One of my aunts adopted a BC that was too nervous to compete in trials. By the time the dog was a year old, they had to spell the word 'cow', or the dog would be off to the pasture, to round the cows up, whether it was milking time or not! Can you imagine a dog like that in an urban home, with no outlet for the drives that have been bred into it?? :crying:

Here's what the show fancy has already done to the two other types of collie, the Shetland sheepdog and the Scotch collie. Both now carry so much coat that they have trouble coping with hot weather, and would get caught up in shrubs and weeds if they actually had to herd sheep. They also require a LOT of grooming due to the heavy coat, and during the time I owned a kennel that offered grooming services, I saw both Shelties and collies with hair that was so matted around their privates that it was a wonder they could still poop and pee! One dog actually had a maggot infestation around its anus! 

The black and white dog is a AKC show border collie. You can see they are already breeding them for excess coat... :frown2:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Changes in the rough or Scotch collie:

Edit: show breeders are also changing the traditional shape of the border collie's head, and breeding for excess stop, and an apple-domed skull, instead of the traditional elongate wedge-shaped head. http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/border-collie#/slide/1


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Because all AKC cares about is that a dog can trot around the ring looking pretty. They care very little for working ability. Because of this, many breeds are now split into working line and show line.
> 
> The border collie is a very high energy dog, and many BC breeders will not let their pups go to anything but a working home. One of my aunts adopted a BC that was too nervous to compete in trials. By the time the dog was a year old, they had to spell the word 'cow', or the dog would be off to the pasture, to round the cows up, whether it was milking time or not! Can you imagine a dog like that in an urban home, with no outlet for the drives that have been bred into it?? :crying:
> 
> ...


ah ****, thats a shame... Doesnt the AKC control working type titles and competitions as well? 

are there any checks or balances in place to stop them from taking breeds down dangerous geneticly mutating paths? I guess this is kinda derailing the topic haha but curious.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When dogs are not worked over time, when the necessary traits needed for work are not tested for, the dogs eventually, through neglect of selection, lose the ability to work. The working BC people did not want to see their breed be turned into another empty headed shell of what they were developed to be. 

The same thing has happened to most of the working breeds.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yep, Lisa, that's it in a nutshell!

As was mentioned in a previous thread, the GSDs you see in the show ring are almost NEVER the same ones you see in the performance events. It can happen, but it's rare.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

More and more we don't really need the working breeds. Not many people need a herding dog to actually herd. Not many need a pulling dog to actually pull. I think our gun dogs might be safe for awhile because there is more of a need for the sports hunter. 

That being said, I don't want to see our working dogs watered down to become pretty versions of what they once were. It is just hard to find buyers for working line pups, when less and less people need them. I don't know any good way to keep enough variety in the good working lines if there is not much call for them, aside from a few farmers, sports trainers and hunters.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

car2ner I kind of agree and kind of dont. Agree there is less need for working dogs. 

But I bet almost everybody here who has a GSD has it because it makes them feel safer. People like to think their dog will protect them or at least be a deterrant. That guardian of the home family dog is probably the biggest "job" the gsd is doing right now. People probably choose gsds over goldens because it is a deterrant by looks or they hope, for real.

Do these family guardians need the drive and energy to work all day as border patrol dogs or mwds...no...and if they have that much the family probably isn't happy with them either.


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## CarrieJo (Oct 1, 2016)

car2ner said:


> More and more we don't really need the working breeds. Not many people need a herding dog to actually herd. Not many need a pulling dog to actually pull. I think our gun dogs might be safe for awhile because there is more of a need for the sports hunter.
> 
> That being said, I don't want to see our working dogs watered down to become pretty versions of what they once were. It is just hard to find buyers for working line pups, when less and less people need them. I don't know any good way to keep enough variety in the good working lines if there is not much call for them, aside from a few farmers, sports trainers and hunters.


I LOVE real working breeds! I rather buy a border collie off of a working farm than some pedigree dog to just "look pretty."

I love dogs that are working dogs and have generations of training. I think they have more drive to be a "worker" and interact with the family in a great way! Loved having collies that would "herd the kids when they where small" and keep them away from harm and together.

We had nothing but collies and shelties when the kids where little. This time our son got a border collie off a farm. Wish I could have got one when my cousin raised them here's would bring anything to you from a sheep to a horse as a matter of fact I did not know when I only pointed at the horse that the dog would litterarlly jump up and threw his body into the horse's face to get him to come to me. I felt awful!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

CarrieJo said:


> I LOVE real working breeds! I rather buy a border collie off of a working farm than some pedigree dog to just "look pretty."


I suspect a number of us posters prefer our GSDs to be closer to a working dog than just a pretty thing (although there is nothing wrong with a good looking healthy dog). We come here to be educated and find the best matches for our lifestyles, hobbies and jobs. It wasn't but a few years ago that I thought a German Shepherd was a German Shepherd. I knew nothing about all the different flavors. All my dogs had been rehomed shelter dogs and choosing a line and pedigree hadn't even crossed my mind.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> Yep, Lisa, that's it in a nutshell!
> 
> As was mentioned in a previous thread, the GSDs you see in the show ring are almost NEVER the same ones you see in the performance events. It can happen, but it's rare.


I wanted to say this in the other thread but i was too slow and it got locked. My white dog's breeder I suppose is a "showline" breeder.

My dog's sire has this as his list of accomplishments:
Obedience Titles
AKC OTCH Obedience Trial Champion
AKC UDX Utility Dog Excellent
AKC UD Utility Dog
AKC CDX Companion Dog Excellent
AKC CD Companion Dog
CKC OTCH Obedience Trial Champion
CKC UD Utility Dog
CKC CD Companion Dog
CKC CDX Companion Dog Excellent
U-CD UKC Companion Dog
U-CDX UKC Companion Dog Excellent

Performance Titles
Versatility Companion Dog 2 (VCD2)
Versatility Companion Dog 1 (VCD1)
Open Agility Preferred (OAP)
Open Jumpers Preferred (OJP)
Novice Agility Preferred (NAP)
Novice Jumpers Preferred (NJP)
AKC Tracking Dog (TD)
CKC Tracking Dog (TD)
Schutzhund BH (Obedience & Temperament Test)
Schutzhund TR1 (Tracking Test)
Flyball Master Champion (earning 15,000 pts)
Herding Capability Tested (HCT/sheep)
Herding Instinct Certified (HIC/ducks)
Canine Good Citizen (CGC)

I am seeing plenty other dogs on her website with TDXs (which is what my dog is training for...he is a heck of a tracker. 
CDX
Preferred Excellent Agility
Versatility Companion Dog 2
Herding Capability Test

Nosework titles...

Anyway. There are good breeders out there producing great dogs from "show" lines. Every dog she has bred has a conformation CH, but they also have TONS of other titles.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

@Thecowboysgirl Your breeder is doing things with her dogs that at least is still using the dogs brain, testing it in areas of obedience, using its nose and being able to take direction, listen while in drive and being agile. IMO that is a good thing.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I see a higher percentage of white GSD breeders doing this sort of thing with their dogs than I do the ASL breeders. They also have a database for listing health problems that I wish every other breed would emulate!

And I have a lot of respect for Joanne Chanyi, the founder of Hoofprint Farms here in Ontario.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I wanted to say this in the other thread but i was too slow and it got locked. My white dog's breeder I suppose is a "showline" breeder.
> 
> My dog's sire has this as his list of accomplishments:
> Obedience Titles
> ...


I meant this to say I think all of her breeding stock has conformation CHs, not that every puppy she has produced has a conformation CH. I just realized it reads weird.


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> I see a higher percentage of white GSD breeders doing this sort of thing with their dogs than I do the ASL breeders. They also have a database for listing health problems that I wish every other breed would emulate!
> 
> 
> 
> And I have a lot of respect for Joanne Chanyi, the founder of Hoofprint Farms here in Ontario.




My dog would probably be considered a ASL as his sire won a 5 Point major in conformation a few months back. So he has that potential. 

My pups dam, who has also competed in conformation, has 7 various obedience/performance type titles, and her dam has 11 of them. Her line has competed in Schutzhund as well. 

The pup I have of theirs (5 months old) is incredibly well rounded in every regard. He was potty trained by 9 weeks and is incredibly strong and fast physically, with a great drive and temperament. He will fetch a ball to no end, swim, go down the slide at the park, or up the 5’ rock wall. 

When it comes to other dogs, since he’s been a puppy he has nerves of steel. He will get it handed to him by dogs 2-3x his size and the minute he is up, he will be running back at them full speed for more. I have a feeling that’ll happen less and less as he becomes an adult. 

From comments like your earlier one that I see constantly on this forum, you’d never guess that he’d come from a family history of conformation dogs (his breeder is also a vet with an insanely long list of health testing on her dogs as well). I almost even hate to use the “ASL” designation around here, as it’s clear people seem to think they are worthless outside the show ring


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I own an ASL/GSL cross, and it breaks my heart to see the American dogs not being put to work! Even when they are, people laugh and make fun of them. A member of my former schutzhund club was going around telling other club members that my dog didn't belong in the club, and she'd never get an 1P01, or even a BH! 

I would love nothing more than to see the rules require conformation dogs to get at LEAST one working title before they can be awarded a championship!

So, what I said above was not intended as criticism, but merely what I've observed.

The grandfather of my female has a herding title, as well as being Excellent select (Dallas, Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes) and a woman who watched him herd said he had a natural aptitude for it, and could have gone on to get more advanced titles. Unfortunately, he passed away at the age of 9 years.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I own an ASL/GSL cross, and it breaks my heart to see the American dogs not being put to work! Even when they are, people laugh and make fun of them. A member of my former schutzhund club was going around telling other club members that my dog didn't belong in the club, and she'd never get an 1P01, or even a BH!
> 
> I would love nothing more than to see the rules require conformation dogs to get at LEAST one working title before they can be awarded a championship!
> 
> ...


I sort of agree that I wish they had to have other titles to get a CH...on the other hand I guess I wish the breeders just WANTED to do that and would do that anyway. 

But I supposed the rules that were established in Germany were established to keep breeders to a standard. so if that's how it needs to be then i think I'd say at minimum a CH dog should have performance titles and a temperament test of some sort...

https://www.gsdca.org/events/temperament-testing? Surely it's better than nothing?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Well, yeah, it's a step in the right direction!

As was mentioned previously, the GSDCC now requires the TEC temperament test before a dog can get an Excellent Select title in conformation. This is very similar to the AKC temperament test, except it adds in the traffic steady portion of the IPO BH test. The dogs have to walk along the road while a jogger, a car and a bicycle pass by. Both the car and the bicycle beep their horn (or ring a bell). The driver of the car stops to ask for directions.

The dog is also tied up to the fence, and has to remain calm when separated from its owner. The dogs are then taken one by one into a group of people, who cluster closely around the dog, then start yelling and cheering, as if their favourite team has just scored a game-winning goal!

As Carmspack said, she and others had to fight against considerable resistance to get this test approved. And yes, it would be very nice if the breeders would support this sort of thing, instead of being against it!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> I see a higher percentage of white GSD breeders doing this sort of thing with their dogs than I do the ASL breeders. They also have a database for listing health problems that I wish every other breed would emulate!
> 
> And I have a lot of respect for Joanne Chanyi, the founder of Hoofprint Farms here in Ontario.


There are local asl breeders here who title their dogs and some go do search and rescue work. Max is a asl the breeder has a few of her dogs go to become cadaver dogs. I think if you work in a venue with your dog or do something with your dog it is where you find that their are many American showlines breeders who title their dogs and don?t need their arm twisted to do so. The person that helped me with ecollar training has trained in detection work is a asl breeder and I think has almost every akc title invented in many of her dogs. I think it would be only beneficial to the asl if akc held higher standards and required some titles. Not sure it would help with how they are viewed by some. I will not argue that but in my small world I found you do not have to search the ends of the earth to find a asl breeders who titles their dogs. I can say I?m glad I did not find this forum until after I got my asl. He is not lacking in drive, intelligence, health or lacks in protective instincts in any way. I can also understand the importance of protecting the drives and protection instincts in the breed.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

car2ner said:


> CarrieJo said:
> 
> 
> > I LOVE real working breeds! I rather buy a border collie off of a working farm than some pedigree dog to just "look pretty."
> ...


I grew up with asl breeder that lived down the block from me I used to help my friend care for her dogs. My first gsd was a working line. He was quite a dog. I remember a few people followed me just to inquire about breeding to him. I did not know about wgsl until after our first gsd passed Away and our neighbor had a wgsl he lived behind us. The neighbors dog bit their own 4 year little kid in the face and went after my kids twice and other kids to. He had quite the reputation on the bus- lol! so I knew when looking for my second german Shepherd not to go to a backyard breeder or a pet store but a reputable breeder.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in my small world I found you do not have to search the ends of the earth to find a asl breeders who titles their dogs

that's good to know . Support those breeders and list them here.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> in my small world I found you do not have to search the ends of the earth to find a asl breeders who titles their dogs
> 
> that's good to know . Support those breeders and list them here.


Yes thanks carmspack a great idea. The ones I?m familiar with and Very local -the first two breeders one I have met one I have spoken to about a sar question. 

Judy Schreier - I think she may have puppies. Anyone interested direct message me for her number- I know one of her dog?s is schreier?s Jetta she is always working with her dogs. 

MarDan kennels another very local kennel- Susan Condreras a SAR trainer, breeder, show handler. 

Alkarah kennels in New Jersey a two hour drive from me. 


All do work in some training venue with their asls.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_ab05c0c3/wp_ab05c0c3.html

Marcato?s gsd


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

No, this is Marcato German shepherds (Xeph's dogs).

Marcato German Shepherds

Not surprised the dog you linked to in your post was bred to Dallas. That's one ASL dog that not only produced excellent conformation dogs, but dogs that, like their sire, had a good work ethic!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> No, this is Marcato German shepherds (Xeph's dogs).
> 
> Marcato German Shepherds
> 
> Not surprised the dog you linked to in your post was bred to Dallas. That's one ASL dog that not only produced excellent conformation dogs, but dogs that, like their sire, had a good work ethic!


Yes. I typed the word Marcato gsd. Not sure I could remember the spelling of Cassion kennel so shared a link. Marcato I heard of on this forum in nJ. Max?s breeder concentrated mostly on showing -woodhaven kennels - and some dogs that went to become cadaver dogs with repeat customers. She was a animal control officer, vet tech and groomer. Max has a great work effort -linebred on Dallas. I love his confirmation and the way he moves his color his drives and personality he has lots of herding instincts. He loves to work he could easily work all day and be happy doing it as long as gets his balls throws in as a reward. I was even looking into cadaver work it interested me but I?m just not sure how dedicated I would be. I can easily run out of things to teach him He makes me learn a lot. We are jacks of all trade and can be masters of some no doubt maybe one day that would be up to me. He is not perfect and was not the easiest teenage years but I did learn a lot now from him - he still tries to steal food from the table.


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

Jenny720 said:


> . I can say I?m glad I did not find this forum until after I got my asl. He is not lacking in drive, intelligence, health or lacks in protective instincts in any way. I can also understand the importance of protecting the drives and protection instincts in the breed.



Isn’t this the most true statement I’ve read here in a long time. If someone went just based on the posts in this forum, they’d think the ASL’s are basically all worthless aside from “looking pretty.” 

Like I mentioned earlier, my pup’s dam and her mother have a ton of titles aside from conformation, and if I had a local club and had that as a goal, I have no doubt he would excel as well. 



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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Trix - yes I can see why there are not many asl people here. There are more asl breeders who title their dogs. The ones i have shared are the ones have been on my list.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't know anything first hand about this breeder, never met them or any of their dogs.

New Page 1

But here you can see them herding and tracking...

Brownhill


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> I grew up with asl breeder that lived down the block from me I used to help my friend care for her dogs. My first gsd was a working line. He was quite a dog. I remember a few people followed me just to inquire about breeding to him. I did not know about wgsl until after our first gsd passed Away and *our neighbor had a wgsl he lived behind us. The neighbors dog bit their own 4 year little kid in the face and went after my kids twice and other kids to. *He had quite the reputation on the bus- lol! so I knew when looking for my second german Shepherd not to go to a backyard breeder or a pet store but a reputable breeder.


Asl's get pointed out often as having poor temperament, but in my neck of the woods the "pine cones" with this issue tend to be wgsl.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I must live in a weird place. Most of the pet dogs around here are a mix of all lines thrown together with no purpose other than breeding two German Shepherd dogs to sell registered pups. Now sure the sport people have their preference but average homeowner doesn't know squat about ASL, WGSL, Working line. It's either white German Shepherds or normal German Shepherds. However most are black and tan so I suppose there is a predominance to them.
I get asked a lot if mine are malinois.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Sorry. I didnt read answers. 
Same as humans. Good nerves- no damage.
And i mean good nerves- as u go to see 8 Weekend old puppy. U see it Even then.
When i seek My first gsd, i went to see lots If puppies. And for now i know( kill me If i am wrong) u see good puppy at The age 8 , and If u not, dont take it.
The BASIC character IS best shown when still little. 
For My second dog i went to see Vader. I saw puppy, freeroam, not afraid of anything,but very much for Pettinen or a treats. I took HIM for a walk to see. And no fears,what so ever. Then i bought it. 
I sign totally, for dogs personal traits are there when born. They go good or Bad.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

And for example, i know for sure, If i mistreat My dog, he just Be aggressive towards me, not others. Vader loves everyone, Even our animal doctor Said she has never seen as relaxed and social gsd on her Life as a vet. But that was The point, i seeked a puppy with social traits and then just keeped on to raise them. 

I wanted gsd fit for a Town, and with My boy, we can go bus,car,taxi, people pet HIM, he loves it. But i would say Even My dog IS mix, not mutt, purebred, but he is working ipo x showline.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cdwoodcox said:


> I must live in a weird place. Most of the pet dogs around here are a mix of all lines thrown together with no purpose other than breeding two German Shepherd dogs to sell registered pups. Now sure the sport people have their preference but average homeowner doesn't know squat about ASL, WGSL, Working line. It's either white German Shepherds or normal German Shepherds. However most are black and tan so I suppose there is a predominance to them.
> I get asked a lot if mine are malinois.


All of the shepherds I have personally met in the past few years I can think of off the top of my head:

1 pet store puppy mill dog
1 amish country puppy mill dog
3 backyard bred "pet" line dog
2 decent bred working line dog from decent breeders
4 rescue dogs adopted through organizations 

That's not counting a bunch of shepherds I didn't really actually meet but saw at dog events--mostly AKC tracking stuff, but those tend to be more "dog people" who seem to either have only rescue dogs or have bought dogs from good breeders. The above list is dogs I met not at "dog" events, so I think my experience is in line with you, CD


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

OK, so how fits The borderline gsd. Working ei x showline


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I grew up with asl breeder that lived down the block from me I used to help my friend care for her dogs. My first gsd was a working line. He was quite a dog. I remember a few people followed me just to inquire about breeding to him. I did not know about wgsl until after our first gsd passed Away and *our neighbor had a wgsl he lived behind us. The neighbors dog bit their own 4 year little kid in the face and went after my kids twice and other kids to. *He had quite the reputation on the bus- lol! so I knew when looking for my second german Shepherd not to go to a backyard breeder or a pet store but a reputable breeder.
> ...


I?m sure there bad pine cones in every woods. Luna is wgsl we are very happy with her. I like her bidability. In nose work class there were a few wgsl , working lines and asl I seen have some working line /wgsl pup that I liked really nice structure to.


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## CarrieJo (Oct 1, 2016)

Yep I really lucked out the first time my hubby and I bought a full blooded dog. We bought a sheltie from a place where people go sell stuff. We where very fortunate passed up a lot of dogs there because we didn't like the way the others spoke about their pups and didn't like the feeling we got off of them. I WOULD NEVER GO TO THAT PLACE to buy a dog ever now. But the people we bought her from where still breeding dogs (not selling them there) and where by then (12 years later or so still breeding and had a very good reputation by then.) We where EXTREMELY lucky. Also learned that just because someone is passionate about their dogs they breed doesn't mean they breed out the "bad traits" the ones, one should NOT breed just because "the look pretty" or have the livestock.


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## TAPAL2017 (May 21, 2017)

Tipping my hat to these folks... I have a tremendous amount of respect for how these folks approach breeding and Marcato's commitment to their dogs and the GSD community as a whole--- while their vision is different from my own and they produce a dog that isn't my personal cup of tea so to speak--- they do it with integrity and back up / support their line and clients and look to the future and set a great example. I wish there were more breeders out there that would follow this type of business model (and wishing further focus on a balanced GSD type both in structure and temperament). Unfortunately, economics & mob mentalities don't really support this approach.


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