# Petsmart fun (Science Diet)



## SashasDaddy (Sep 30, 2006)

Well I took Sasha in to get groomed the other day and low and behold while I'm waiting for Sasha to get all prettified (she looks so cute now







) this guy walks in with a name tag. Figured he was just a petsmart worker so I didn't really pay him any mind, but I heard him talking to one of the other workers talking about how dogs are omnivores. So I just kinda muttered to myself "LOL no......no they're not." And apparently this guy peddles Science Diet to everyone in the store (unsure if he's an employee of petsmart, said he was on the marketing team for science diet) So my groomer piped up and said "I think someone is going to disagree with you there (insert whatever his name was)"

So a half hour discussion later he walks off citing how dogs need veggies in their diet and how they have flat molars in their mouth (funny that I never saw these in Sasha's mouth. Must've fell out or something.)

Two of the petsmart workers came up to me and thanked me for "putting him in his place". Apparently he even tells the workers to get their dogs on the "best food available."

I went home and









P.S. New pics of Sasha soon. She got a nice bath, a good brushing, got her nails done and belly shaved up a little. Got the ears done too, although I'm gonna need to feed Sash some more meaty bones so she can whiten up her teeth a little. She still has a TINY bit of gunk at the top of her teeth.

EDIT: I am not a nutritionist, and my knowledge of food is not extreme. Could someone point out a site for research where I can dissect exactly why Science diet is not "the best" in plain terms to him? I know I'm gonna see him again eventually since he gave me this ridiculous brochure on a dog's "true" diet. I know Science diet is a grained commercial food, but some specifics that can be pointed out would be appreciated.


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## Cathygirl (Dec 29, 2006)

Here are a couple sights I found interesting.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

I went through the Hill's Veterinary Technician Nutrition Consultant program. I refused to do the Science Diet thing. I refused to work every weekend at Petsmart or Petco peddling their food. I believe what food you feed your dog is a personal decision. Now, I do advocate the Hill's veterinary food (or other veterinary food) for specific situations that are being treated by the veterinarian - but they are special cases (such as urinary or kidney disorders) or illnesses (short term use of w/d, i/d or a/d).

As for the molars that Sasha is missing, maybe she and Gracie are from similar blood lines because Gracie only has moutainous molars, none of them are flat














I have stopped going to Petsmart because of the horrible misinformation that people give out and John Q Dog Owner doesn't know the difference. It's sad!

My favorite place to take Gracie is http://www.cuttersmillpetstore.com They sell everything from Science Diet (blech) to Wellness Core to Innova, etc.....


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Poor fella. He probably sincerly believes in what he's saying. 
He obviously also doesn't have a dog or he'd know that they don't have such a thing as a flat molar.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

Found this: http://www.volhard.com/holistic/artbywv.htm

A Carnivore Needs Meat

Your dog is a carnivore and not a vegetarian. He needs meat. His teeth are quite different from ours -- they are made for ripping and tearing meat. They do not have flat surfaces for grinding up grains. His digestion starts in his stomach and not in his mouth. All the enzymes in his system are geared to breaking down meat and raw foods. There is no doubt about it, your dog is a carnivore.


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## Dano (Sep 20, 2004)

Many people get confused about this omnivore or carnivore thing because dogs do eat things like grains, vegetables and fruits but the reason they eat those things is because the meat they are eating may have them in it, as in the stomach of freshly killed game. So the uninformed assume it makes a dog an omnivore. Dogs can not survive on berries and grasses when meat is not available like bears can.

They should tell those Science Diet pushers, or whatever they are, to stick to hard info about their food and not give uninformed opinions. It could only hurt their sales, not to mention dogs if a customer believes what they say.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

Actually dogs do have "flat" molars, they are small and in the back of their jaws, you obviously haven't looked into a completely wide open mouth of a dog. They are not much help in "grinding" food however.

While dogs can and do eat a variety of foods, their diegestive systems are set up to get optimum nutrition from meat protien, not carbohydrates.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/sm-130-lg.jpg

Dog skull. No flat molars there, at least not like ours. There are some flatter surfaces, but I think those are to assist in bone crushing along with the sharper parts that work for shearing. No sir, nothing in there is designed to assist a dog with chewing on a corn cob or grazing on grass!

EDIT: I looked at more dog skulls and yes, there are teeny molars in the rear that are flat, but again, this is probably to crush bone as the molars are near the fulcrum (hinge), thus the rear has the best bone-busting leverage. I'm not sure on this, but this is what I figure. Because the rest of the dentition is all meat meat meat, the presence of four flat molars does not mean the dog is equipped to handle veggies, especially when the whole digestive tract is taken into consideration. But thank you for making me go out and learn something new- didn't notice those tiny molars before.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/structure_information/7.html

This was posted in the "Breed Standard" section by Deejay's mom.


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## JulesMichy (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GS MomActually dogs do have "flat" molars, they are small and in the back of their jaws, you obviously haven't looked into a completely wide open mouth of a dog.


There's a way to disagree with someone without coming off condescending and rude.

On topic, even if dogs were omnivores, I'd still never feed Science Diet to any animal. They use poor quality ingredients, fillers, and are among the last dog food companies to still use ethoxyquin and BHA, which have been linked to carcinogenic effects in a number of studies.

The Hills company basically has the perfect set up. They make diets that are high in grains and other materials that dogs can't digest well or at all. They get vets across the nation to recommend this food to their clients, and indoctrinate vet students while they're still in school. Later, when the animals that were being fed "the best food available" develop the very conditions that said food was guaranteed to prevent: allergies, or obesity, or renal disease... Well, Hills has just the food for that, too! Just feed your dog/cat this z/d, w/d or k/d and all will be well again!

JenM66, I suggest you print off the page from dogfoodanalysis.com with their review of SD and hand it to this guy next time you see him. Look under the dry formulas that received a 1 star rating. The prescription diets are all there, too. To quote:



> Quote:This food receives a 1 star rating simply because there is nothing lower.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Hills is crap in a bag, and Forrest Gump taught me that stupid is as stupid does.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I would say that dogs actually _have_ been functional omnivores for thousands of years because of their associate with humans. Wild canids can also be omnivores - Coyotes and red foxes both can and do eat berries and other plants along with small game, carrion, and any number of other things. 

For me the point is that dogs are NOT herbivores and that even if they were, they are not built for high carb eating or grain digestion. Even actual herbivores like cows are not set up for nonstop grain digestion. They get all sorts of ulcers and infections as a result of being fed a diet that is too high in carbs so that they can grow more quickly. But I digress. My point being that good food vs. bad food goes beyond animal vs. plant and I totally agree that SD is not a good food.

The "crap in a bag"







that many dog food retailers are selling is not appropriate food for dogs nor is it high quality food for any animal. Unfortunately the general dog owning public does not know this and pushers in places like Petsmart can confuse people who really do want to do what's best for their dogs. We try to educate as diplomatically as they can, even when it's just one adopter at a time.


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## SashasDaddy (Sep 30, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI would say that dogs actually _have_ been functional omnivores for thousands of years because of their associate with humans. Wild canids can also be omnivores - Coyotes and red foxes both can and do eat berries and other plants along with small game, carrion, and any number of other things.
> 
> For me the point is that dogs are NOT herbivores and that even if they were, they are not built for high carb eating or grain digestion. Even actual herbivores like cows are not set up for nonstop grain digestion. They get all sorts of ulcers and infections as a result of being fed a diet that is too high in carbs so that they can grow more quickly. But I digress. My point being that good food vs. bad food goes beyond animal vs. plant and I totally agree that SD is not a good food.
> 
> ...


I was just shocked that this guy is honestly trying to tell me his Science Diet is a thousand times better than the raw instinct I'm feeding Sasha right now (half kibble, half patty). And I'm such a bad dog owner for feeding Sasha marrow bones


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I totally understand and agree! He can be a little bit right and still so very very wrong.


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## kallie (Sep 3, 2001)

> Quote:I would say that dogs actually have been functional omnivores for thousands of years because of their associate with humans. Wild canids can also be omnivores - Coyotes and red foxes both can and do eat berries and other plants along with small game, carrion, and any number of other things.


I tend to believe this also..

As far as the Science Diet rep goes...It is his "job" to preach like this. We all or "most" know that Science Diet is a crap diet. I personally cannot stand the company in general, for more reasons than one. However, you can talk to the guy until you are blue in the face on how bad it is, but bottom line is, IF the guy needs a job, he sure is not going to go against the company to agree with anyone that is against it...I sure wouldn't, especially knowing how hard it is to find jobs now a days..He is just doing his job

Jen


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## JulesMichy (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: kallieHowever, you can talk to the guy until you are blue in the face on how bad it is, but bottom line is, IF the guy needs a job, he sure is not going to go against the company to agree with anyone that is against it...I sure wouldn't, especially knowing how hard it is to find jobs now a days..He is just doing his job


Actually, I gotta disagree. I've worked jobs that I was passionate about, jobs I couldn't have cared less about, and jobs I hated. How much you "do your job" is usually influenced by these standards. If this guy truly didn't believe the SD crap, and just wanted to get paid, he would have walked away with a simple: "Well, let's agree to disagree." The fact that he stayed and argued so vehemently means he's a believer.


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## kallie (Sep 3, 2001)

> Quote:The fact that he stayed and argued so vehemently means he's a believer.


I guess your missing my point Point is, it does not matter if he is a believer or not, nor if he likes his job or not, this has nothing to do with that. He is there to do a job only, to sell a product. How would it have looked if he agreed to what was said, in front of the petsmart employees? Best believe he would not have a job long. As far as him not saying, "Well, let's agree to disagree."...Not sure how that statement would have made any difference if made..It sure is not a statement of defeat, more on the lines of courtesy so to speak...anyway this is just my view...

Jen


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I've been amazed, sitting in my vet's office, how often the Iams/Purina/Hills reps stop by. My vet doesnt have time for them. He's busy. They ask to leave their stuff. The sweet new receptionist says "ok," but the office manager says "nah, take it with you." 

These reps remind me so much of the pharmaceutical sales people that travel in and out of doctors' offices. 

Yeah, not as bad as the Hills guy trying to wrestle Sasha's Dad to the floor to take his silly sample and accept his propaganda. (Although Kallie's right. What's he going to do? Admit that PetSmart is selling a bunch of [email protected]?) But when we read new pet owners' posts that "my vet says that Science Diet is the best food for my puppy..." I just shake my head. 

There's a guy in a non-dog forum I visit (where we also discuss dogs) who always posts the same thing whenever the topic of food comes up: "My father in law, who is a vet, says that Fluffy (or whatever the dog's name is) should eat only Science Diet, and he says that Fluffy looks great!"

Every single dog food thread. I wonder how much Fluffy's grandpa gets from Hills for these endorsements?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I envy you guys' ability to joke about Science Diet and the folks hawking the stuff... as it really is a poor quality food, and those who believe their spiel really flummox me.

Anyway, I envy you all, because here in Germany, ALL of the premium foods here have grains-- and lots of 'em-- even as the FIRST ingredient, sometimes even the first THREE ingredients! Corn, wheat, rice flour... then "meat meal" or "poultry meat." (the aisle with anti-itch supplements is HUGE) With a ton of effort, one can order online Orijen or Barking at the Moon here.... but, it is not often available, as it's imported from Canada and USA and there are shortages. EVO and Nature's Variety Raw Instinct are banned here. (really) Germany has only ONE grain-free kibble, and it is a brand new company and the stuff is hard to get.... and not good for many dogs, as the ingredient list has both vague ("wild game") and multiple (3-4) protien sources.

For raw, this is an interesting place to be-- jumbo bag of turkey hearts is super-cheap at the grocery, but, I cannot get canned pumpkin or chicken backs or quarters. Innards are sold in bulk and easy to get. Turkey is EXPENSIVE! Chickens are teeny-weeny (a bit bigger than the size of your hand). Turkey drums are cheap and easy to find, but beef is super-costly. The grocer' freezer case has got venison, goose, duck, and rabbit!

And, something is different with the meat here... people will cook a roast, then leave it out of the fridge for a few days and still eat it!! They do not get sick. And, many here eat raw ground pork, raw ground beef-- some even eat chicken drums raw. Nobody gets sick from it.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> Chickens are teeny-weeny


That's because chickens are "naturally" teeny weeny. Once you pluck off all the feathers, there shouldn't be much to them, unless you've done funky things to them genetically, _ breeding chicks for breasts so broad they can't walk and die of a heart attack _ 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/05/FDUIRSEBQ.DTL

http://www.riverwired.com/blog/bigger-isnt-better

I know it's hard when you have a big beast like the Grimster to feed, but then again, you may want to thank your lucky stars since you and U are eating that food too.


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## JulesMichy (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: kallieI guess your missing my point


No, I got your point. I just disagreed. The guy isn't just doing his job, it's more personal for him than that. If it was just about the extra bucks, he wouldn't have gotten so belligerent.


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## kallie (Sep 3, 2001)

> Quote:The guy isn't just doing his job, it's more personal for him than that. If it was just about the extra bucks, he wouldn't have gotten so belligerent.


Well, let's agree to disagree then









Jen


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Patti, your post made me laugh.









But I would switch from chickens injected with growth hormones, antibiotics & genetically manipulated we have here to teeny weeny "real" chickens any day- And they actually tastes like chicken!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Mädchen, there are no words to describe the way the meat tastes here!! It tastes somehow richer, as if it had been previously marinated, herbs spices, etc.. but it hasn't. It's just more 'real' tasting, more 3-D flavor.. see? I can't describe it!
















The first time I tried a Mettbrötchen or Bratwurstteig (raw ground beef and raw ground pork, usually with spices, salt and papper, and or a lil onion) ... I was not thrilled, but I am open to trying everything and I am learning!









But as for feeding raw here, I think I'll be on my own.







As I said, all of the premium kibbles available here are full of grains, oftentimes the protien source is 'meat by products' or 'poultry' or 'game'.. vague. Not all the kibble common here is using only meat by products, but all do have grain right in the first three if not as the first few ingredients. They do sells SOME prepackaged raw, but super costly-- beyond what you pay in USA for premade raw.

I will need lotsa handholding from you all.


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## IsisUnselke (Mar 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfMädchen, there are no words to describe the way the meat tastes here!! It tastes somehow richer, as if it had been previously marinated, herbs spices, etc.. but it hasn't. It's just more 'real' tasting, more 3-D flavor.. see? I can't describe it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Brightelf,
I'm kinda new here, but I've been following your posts about your big, beautiful Grimm and your move to Germany. I'm happy for you and Grimm with your decision to try a RAW diet. I hope it works for you both! I had a GSD that did better on raw than ANY kind of kibble or canned food. So, perhaps you will have the same luck!

My question is this: You are saying that the premium dog foods there in Germany have two and three grains in the ingredient list before any kind of meat. How healthy are the dogs there, that are eating these foods? I'm so curious! I realize you couldn't know without some investigation..but I wonder what kinds of health/allergy problems the general dog population has? Do the dogs there experience the same rate of cancer and immune system problems that we seem to have here in the States?

Oh no..did I just give you more research work?! I'm sorry!!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

LOL SomePup







I can only say that the vets here have bustling waitingrooms, and that the aisle in the pet supply store for anti-itch and digestion supplements is HUGE. The dogs here are beautiful. They are also alarmingly gassy and itchy. I can say only that much, I don't yet personally know any dog owners here yet-- but there are dogs on the bus, in the shops, crowding the sidewalks on walks with owners. They look happy enough-- but there was a time in USA when all we had was Pedigree and Alpo, and the wonderful new 'premium' food was Science Diet.


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## IsisUnselke (Mar 30, 2008)

So, in other words..the delicious meat that they have there doesn't make up for the same old grain-based diets. 

I remember when I was a kid my folks just bought what ever little colorful box of pet food that caught their eye . I am SURE they never once read the ingredients, or me for that matter! Buying pet food at a pet store? No way. And, unfortunately, our yellow lab, Susie had horrible hip displaysia and was put down at the age of TWO and our cats all died of some kind of uroiological disease.

I think the pet food industry has come a long way!

The dogs there in Germany might looks so happy because they get to go everywhere with their owners! "On the bus, in the shops, crowding the sidewalks on walks with their owners" They must be well socialized over there!


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