# Protection work in the water



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Seems I've seen a lot of pictures here and there of helpers with sleeves in knee-ish deep water with dogs. 

I've speculated as to the purpose(s)... but, why are they doing this?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Physical workout, Training exercise in case of flood and riots ensue and a new distraction come to mind. Why not? Something new!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

we did this as part of the Campagne training -- tests the dogs courage and tenacity .


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> we did this as part of the Campagne training -- tests the dogs courage and tenacity .


Campagne?

How does it test courage exactly?

Does the equipment not take a beating?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Campagne is an extension of the french ring program . You never know what environment you will need to work in.

Same idea as slippery floors , ice , high gloss flooring, unstable footing , something shifting underneath them.

You are adding additional stress . See how the dog likes it when his "power" is taken away . Some dogs don't like water - period . Some dogs won't dive in without knowing the depth etc. Heck there are dogs that come to a screeching halt when the ball goes awry into the bushes or high grass. They don't have the courage to deal with the unkown.

See if you can recall , direct the dog in the water .


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Campagne is an extension of the french ring program . You never know what environment you will need to work in.
> 
> Same idea as slippery floors , ice , high gloss flooring, unstable footing , something shifting underneath them.
> 
> ...


Does it not trash the gear? seems a sleeve would be mighty stinky if I let it get soaking wet, but that might be a local humidity thing

I ask b/c the idea of putting $200 in the water concerns me


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doesn't it get wet with rain, snow, and slobber?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Doesn't it get wet with rain, snow, and slobber?


yeah i suppose so but not through and through.. definitely not from snow lol, we gets none of that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the gear isn't in the water , you hold it above, not every work needs a bite . you'd be surprised how many dogs couldn't figure out what to do with the pool noodles used for flotation for kids . or a board which is used to smack the water with. The exercise to begin with is more of an understanding of the dog's courage with difficult and stimulating experiences . A lot of dogs don't like uncertainty of poor footing or no footing. Can't get away fast enough , so some go into avoidance , or make wide arcs . It is more of an opportunity to expose something about the dogs temperament. My dogs are water idiots , diving right to the bottom , swimming a length before hitting surface again as LSatov with Journey will atest to .

Carmen


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the gear isn't in the water , you hold it above, not every work needs a bite . you'd be surprised how many dogs couldn't figure out what to do with the pool noodles used for flotation for kids . or a board which is used to smack the water with. The exercise to begin with is more of an understanding of the dog's courage with difficult and stimulating experiences . A lot of dogs don't like uncertainty of poor footing or no footing. Can't get away fast enough , so some go into avoidance , or make wide arcs . It is more of an opportunity to expose something about the dogs temperament. My dogs are water idiots , diving right to the bottom , swimming a length before hitting surface again as LSatov with Journey will atest to .
> 
> Carmen


Mine love the water too. They've actually been ~40 miles offshore with me in 3 foot seas.

Jager once went about 10 feet underwater when he was in a full run in about 6 inches of muddy water that dropped off abruptly to about 10feet. Not by choice though.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We gave bites in the water for fun. The routine stuff gets boring. The dogs love the added dimension. I did have a sleeve get doused once. They are really heavy then! It dried out okay though.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Atlantic City PD training academy through Dennis McSweeeny was one of the fist PD academies to incorporate this into the regular training regiment some thirty years ago. I used to decoy for Dennis in the 80's and you had to go chest high in the water(both lake and ocean) and the dog had to go straight out and make the hit while swimming toward you. You be surprised how some of the supposed "macho" dogs would have problems with this that were superstars on the ground. (The ocean training was waist high and lake chest high). Because of nature of shore towns in NJ, this was felt to be a necessity. This is one of the reasons I had Chris(now in college) and Mutz,(six months) jumping off dock into over head water this summer....so when they go to college they won't have issues with this aspect.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Samba said:


> We gave bites in the water for fun. The routine stuff gets boring. The dogs love the added dimension. I did have a sleeve get doused once. They are really heavy then! It dried out okay though.


Yeah I didn't think about the weight jute would hold... maybe I'll do that just to build up my presentation speed lol.

We don't really have any area to do water stuff... around here if its fresh water alligators are a major concern, and splashing tends to get there attention... and they love dogs. Lab got snagged by a big gator last summer here. Saw it on CNN, the guy jumped in after it, wrestled the dog away, and both lived. I was like "that shoreline looks oddly familiar". It was a few miles from my house.

Can't imagine anything would last long in salt water. Its hard enough to keep "Marine grade" stuff from falling apart.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Atlantic City PD training academy through Dennis McSweeeny was one of the fist PD academies to incorporate this into the regular training regiment some thirty years ago. I used to decoy for Dennis in the 80's and you had to go chest high in the water(both lake and ocean) and the dog had to go straight out and make the hit while swimming toward you. You be surprised how some of the supposed "macho" dogs would have problems with this that were superstars on the ground. (The ocean training was waist high and lake chest high). Because of nature of shore towns in NJ, this was felt to be a necessity. This is one of the reasons I had Chris(now in college) and Mutz,(six months) jumping off dock into over head water this summer....so when they go to college they won't have issues with this aspect.


I'd like to see what my dogs would do. I wouldn't think they'd act any different, but you never know. Hard enough to keep them in the boat when we're trying to anchor near a sand bar. 

I assume the (what I assume are) rivets for the sleeve cover strap, are probably gonna crap out on me in salt water?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Alligators!!


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## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

I have a carmspack dog and my best friend trains labs for field trials. So I have a dog that is a water idiot. She will jump 15 feet easy into water, dives under the water and presently in our training does laps in the pool for 20mins a day. 
I have learned how to have her retireve in the water but now we throw 3 bumpers at the same time and differnt distances away and direct her to the one I want her to get first 2nd etc.
She loves, tippy canoes, standing on a dock that is floating and unstable. If I stand in the pool with her tug she will jump in and 
bite it above her head and then we play tug. Great for muscle devlopment and endurance.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

carmspack said:


> the gear isn't in the water , you hold it above, not every work needs a bite .
> 
> Carmen


How can a decoy in a bite suit stand in water and not get wet? Can he turn water into wine too?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Fast , think about it . Don't wear a bite suit , use a sleeve or tug , stand in 3 feet of water or less , hold sleeve about level of shoulder , above water . 
No not water into wine , but some people have a talent for turning wine into vinegar. Not everything is about decoys or bite work -- read on 
So here I am with my von Stephanitz book open to page 270 where there is an image of Herold v der Hurde HGH , who ran 3 hours in blazing sun behind a bicycle to the trial fields, competed in a Tending Competition, then ran back another 3 hours to a full duty of working his sheep . All this at 9 years of age . I think everyone should have a look at this structure . Well on page 271 there is a picture of a dog in a wide and deep river , only ears and eyes showing . On page 273 von Stephanitz goes on to say "Many a brave shepherd dog has also saved children and even adults from drowning: thus Unke vom Lande 7425 save the little son of her owner Herr B R Greiner of Rochus near Neisse, on the 1st of June 1909, after a hard struggle when the child was carried right out into the swollen current of the Neisse, which was in flood. There was also Odin von Nordalbingien 5444 belonging to chief petty officer Richter of Kiel, who on being ordered , brought to land a drowning stevedore , whose boat had capsized about 60 yards from the shore, and who reached the unfortunate man before Richter and the other people had succeeded in unmooring a boat to go to his assistance. Scarcely had the dog recovered a little , when he again jumped into the water to fetch the capsized boat as well ."

It's all about physical and mental fitness.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff in the Genetic obedience thread made a list of scenarios under which the dog had to perform with handler trust , and perform a wide range of tasks with energy and courage, work around fire , water, enter a dark building knowing someone is laying in wait etc. These tests beyond the schutzhund routine keep the working ability alive , when you select for dogs that excell at them. They keep the utility and the versatility of the breed. The dogs temperament is bold and daring, useful in helping us .

Carmen
http://ww.carmspack.com


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Work in the water is great. Multi-location training prepares your k9 for all types of terrain and gives the bad guys less places to go. We try to get all our k9s water comfortable for those just in case moments. Water can bring danger for them and they need to learn how to apprehend a suspect and be able to stay calm if they get pushed or held under once they have bitten.

Its just another way to practice, have fun, and train your pup! Plus is nice and cool on those super hot days!


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

carmspack said:


> Fast , think about it . Don't wear a bite suit , use a sleeve or tug , stand in 3 feet of water or less , hold sleeve about level of shoulder , above water .



I have thought about it and know that campagne is done in bitesuit. 

So what were they trying to teach the dog with a tug?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think the point with the tug was to see if the dog would go through the water to get to the decoy - that was the whole point.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and sometimes , Fast , the decoy is not in full regalia bite suit , like when you are teaching targeting , the decoy has a long tug with a stirrup that he puts his foot into.

the dog is not going to dive into the water to get the leg. the object is to environmentally test the dog . 

in my trial Cheryl Carlson was one of the decoys for handler defence . She was dressed as a gypsy woman in big flouncy skirt and had a big basket in one hand , bells on her wrists, to distract , basket swinging. Then she did the close up gun fire -- wow right at dogs ear level , my ears ringing for days . The French guests that we had said that all sorts of clever and creative scenarios are made to break the dog . One, Jean Dominque -DeBord said they even would have gypsys with chickens on strings tied to a leg band that the decoy would wear around their legs -- all to distract or intimidate the dog , cause the dog to pause or keep distance or lose his thread of focus.
Another would be to have the dog run through hoops with balloons , of bamboo pipes , layers of them one after the other . 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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