# GSD attacked and killed my other dog…



## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

Hey, so yeah basically that sums it up, my 8 month old killed my wife schnauzer last night right in front of my kids. To make a long story short, Schnauz was the oldest of the pack and they kind of bickered since we had GSD, got him as a pup. One of the kids (1) was in the bath and the other (5) was standing next to the bath and the dogs were standing in the bathroom with them and they broke out in a fight, wife said she was doing everything she could do (I'm gone, oilfield worker) she threw a towel over his face and ended up beating him with an iPad while he was slinging the Schnauz by the neck and blood was flying everywhere, kids screaming, wife screaming. Finally got him off and outside, Schnauz ended up dying. 

Me personally, giving him a fair trial, I don't believe he just decided "I feel like killing maverick right now" and proceeded to do so, I think it came from a built up aggression from the issues they've had all along and he finally just had enough. He's never showed any sign of aggression toward me and the wife or kids and never harmed another animal, he would go ballistic over the cats and finally one day i just let him go to see what he would do, obviously I was with him but once he got to the cat that was the end of it he just stared at it and sniffed until the cat whipped his butt with his cat like reflexes. 

I truly believe in my heart he would never harm any of the family members and would die for any of us. He has been to a lot of training with ex military handlers and they love him and tell us how awesome of a dog he is and will protect our kids etc. My wife said when she was in middle of trying to get him to stop it was like her and the kids weren't even there so in my mind this was directed only at the other dog. I'm not making excused for him I'm just trying to make the most logical decision about this. She's just worried that the aggression will carry over to the kids or someone else kids or a neighbor whatever the case may be, its hard because none really looks at the reasoning for it, only the result. If a stranger comes into my back yard, kid or adult when my kids are back there I fully expect him to attack them, I believe dogs that are this intelligent know when someone is there to do bad or good. He's ran through the underground fence before because his collar died and straight lined for some little kids playing in the street with a dog, never batted an eye at the kids or harmed the dog, just ran up sniffed the dog and came back. 

Anyway does anything sound concerning about this? In my mind giving him a fair trial I think he had a reason for doing what he did, I just don't want to regret keeping him around. I also don't want to regret not keeping him around. Let me know what you think please.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Well, I'm really sorry that this happened to your wife's schnauzer and to your family in general. I am not an expert. It has been my experience that aggression toward dogs and aggression toward humans is as separate thing. I suppose my only advice would be to consult some local experts and take it from there. Also, it's possible your wife may never feel comfortable around him again, so it might be best to rehome if that's the case.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Agression towards dogs and aggression toward humans are two different things, BUT when you have little ones, a little one can get hurt bad during a dog fight. If you intend to keep this dog, you need to do two things, 1. not own other dogs; and 2. you need to ensure that your dog is not left anywhere he can get in a scuffle with another dog, especially around your little ones. If you were to find him a great home with one of the handlers you mentioned, it might be the best bet for a dog to kill another at 8 months old, it might be too much dog for the wife and kids.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Years ago, my best friend's brother had 2 dogs: a Chihuahua and a ____. They went out one day and came back to a bloodbath. 1 dog 'survived.' Pieces of the other were all over the house. I tell this story because they also knew of issues between their 2 dogs, and they didn't do anything about it. Just shrugged it off and chalked it up to "dogs will be dogs." As much as they loved the surviving dog, they couldn't keep it around anymore, not because they were afraid the dog may attack the children, but because it was a reminder of what occurred and what they found when they got home.

I'm gonna be really blunt now. I don't think you should keep this dog. Your wife and kids will never see it the same way. They're traumatized and most likely lost all trust in the dog. Best to give it to one of the ex-military guys you mentioned above or have them rehome it. This is to those of you who have issues between your dogs but you're shrugging it off: address the problems now or you risk something similar happening to you.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Your wife and children have experienced a very traumatic event, there will be effects resulting from the trauma. The dog remaining in the home is not a good idea for your family's emotional/mental health, in my opinion. 



https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/child-trauma.pdf


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## Rawhi (Oct 18, 2021)

tc68 said:


> This is to those of you who have issues between your dogs but you're shrugging it off: address the problems now or you risk something similar happening to you.


Completely agree with this ☝


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The clue is that they have bickered since the German Shepherd was a puppy. That was a huge hint this could happen when he reached adolescence. He’s only 8 months and it could get worse as he gets older. We get attached to puppies and never dream the worst can happen. 

I sat in a pet hospital half the night a few years ago with a young man who has been mauled breaking up a toy fight between his two males. He had bandages on his arms and legs. They were mixes of the breed we can’t discuss but one was part GSD. He was waiting for the two dogs to be sewn back up and it had happened before, to both him and to the dogs. The previous time the dogs nearly killed his mothers large breed guardian dog. I suggested he get rid of one or both dogs and he was crying, saying they would be euthanized. Ironically, he got the second dog to be a companion for the first. The sad thing is that by then he and his wife didn’t want either dog anymore and just want it to end, but he wanted them to live. It was an awful preventable situation. I won’t make suggestions as to what you should do with the remaining dog. Whatever you decide should give family safety precedence over emotions.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Super sorry to hear this. What an awful experience. Wonder what kind of bickering lead up to this? What was done to manage the dogs? I've recently added an adopted second dog. They aren't best friends. Now I am scared.


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

Sorry to go a bit off topic but did everyone miss the part about him letting his dog go at the cats as it was going ballistic just to see what happened then later the dog charging though the fence to get to another dog...
This is such a sad thing that has happened to your poor wife, kids and other dog I also agree with everyone else rehome the dog to someone with more time and knowledge but if you do end up keeping him make sure everyone is happy with that arrangement and you must massively up your training and responsibilities and I'd also start muzzle training to kill another dog at 8 month's is concerning best of luck with whatever you decide


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm also a little concerned that an 8th month old dog would go at it with that much intent as to kill another dog that it lives with. 

You don't say anything about what you do with the dog or when you're away quite a bit, how your wife handled things with two young boys in the house. How much training and exercise does the dog get every day no matter what?


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

WNGD said:


> I'm also a little concerned that an 8th month old dog would go at it with that much intent as to kill another dog that it lives with.
> 
> You don't say anything about what you do with the dog or when you're away quite a bit, how your wife handled things with two young boys in the house. How much training and exercise does the dog get every day no matter what?


He stays in the house roaming free with the other 2 dogs, dog spends 3/4 of the day everyday aside from if we're in town doing intense exercising and some sort of work/stimulation rather it be continued obedience, nose work, guard work, jumping, obstacles etc. if were both gone and its cold and they're not in the house they're all out roaming our property. Wife is fine now that she's had a day to think about it on logic and not emotion, she's sad about her dog but she also understands that in nature things don't kill other things for no reason.


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## PNWBlue (Feb 27, 2021)

My wife had a 3 YO Dachshund when I got a GSD pup. The Dachshund ruled the property as the alpha male. He never befriended the new pup and was quite aggressive toward him sometimes. I feared that when the pup got much older there would be bigger trouble between them. My fears were unfounded.

The Dachshund outlived the GSD, who never so much as growled at the Dachshund his entire life. Even when the smaller dog nipped him he would walk away.

When Burr passed on, I got another pup. The Dachshund was geriatric 14 YO and despised the new pup, Pike. Pike, just like his predecessor was indifferent to the smaller dog. Never showed any aggression toward it. Pike would not care if the other dog took one of his bones. He would just let him chew it too.

I know all dogs are different, but given my limited experience with just two GSD's, I was a bit taken back by an 8 MO GSD killing a family pet. 

Very sad and dramatic event. I hope you can find a good outcome.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

> Sorry to go a bit off topic but did everyone miss the part about him letting his dog go at the cats as it was going ballistic just to see what happened then later the dog charging though the fence to get to another dog...
> This is such a sad thing that has happened to your poor wife, kids and other dog I also agree with everyone else rehome the dog to someone with more time and knowledge but if you do end up keeping him make sure everyone is happy with that arrangement and you must massively up your training and responsibilities and I'd also start muzzle training to kill another dog at 8 month's is concerning best of luck with whatever you decide


Your comment was very unhelpful and very insulting. You do not know how much knowledge my wife or me have or how much time either of us have or our capabilities. First off, your CNN definition was very very wrong. I let him go with me present in what happened was not what I expected to happened which did not and now he could care less about the cats he just wanted to catch them because from day 1 they've ran from him, catch is over, he's moved on. Second, he DID NOT charge through the fence and attack another dog as your making is out to be, his collar died in the brief moment that I checked it and we went outside together so in turn that means the fence was not a factor as he would normally mind it by a few feet, he ran at a galloping speed over to checkout the kids and dog and sniffed the dog and came running back over to me. I'm sorry but your comment was very very offensive and judging by your posts you should stay in your lane.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Motovation said:


> He stays in the house roaming free with the other 2 dogs, dog spends 3/4 of the day everyday aside from if we're in town doing intense exercising and some sort of work/stimulation rather it be continued obedience, nose work, guard work, jumping, obstacles etc. if were both gone and its cold and they're not in the house they're all out roaming our property. Wife is fine now that she's had a day to think about it on logic and not emotion, she's sad about her dog but she also understands that in nature things don't kill other things for no reason.


Sounds great but is it your wife doing that when you're away?
I'm glad you're wife is fine, that would have been upsetting for anyone


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

PNWBlue said:


> My wife had a 3 YO Dachshund when I got a GSD pup. The Dachshund ruled the property as the alpha male. He never befriended the new pup and was quite aggressive toward him sometimes. I feared that when the pup got much older there would be bigger trouble between them. My fears were unfounded.
> 
> The Dachshund outlived the GSD, who never so much as growled at the Dachshund his entire life. Even when the smaller dog nipped him he would walk away.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the helpful response! and that's the thing to is he was never like that with our other dog/kids/me/wife, same way as your dogs are, any of us or Griffon could walk up and snatch anything from him and would not phase him at all, I've literally put my hand all way in his mouth to get a piece of food if he took it prematurely, he would look for a new one or wait to get his back. Just was not having it with the schnauzer I guess.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Sounds great but is it your wife doing that when you're away?


Everyday


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Sounds great but is it your wife doing that when you're away?
> I'm glad you're wife is fine, that would have been upsetting for anyone


Its just strange, I'm not a forum kind of person but the odd part of it is what has me here. And the more I talk about it and think about things the more odd it becomes, 90% of people immediately say "Get rid of the dog, he's a murderer and going to kill everyone" That's clearly not the case, I was just hoping to stumble into someone whos had a similar scenario and hear what the outcome was. Sharpest dog I've ever owned and I've had some very very very smart dogs, if we weren't capable and didn't know how these guys are supposed to be handled we wouldn't have one. We didn't get him to be a couch pillow and dress up on the holiday, we got him to train him and have him secondary trained to basically eliminate any threat to our family at whatever the cost and be a loyal companion to the family and that's how its been up to this point, I just wish I knew the reason behind that, I completely get it when dogs kill other dogs unsupervised but he burned the schnauzer under 100% supervision which is what makes me know there was a reason for it, I just wish I knew what it was. We don't know what dogs are thinking, it could have been anything, Maverick was huge for jumping in the bathtub while we were showering and hanging over the side of the tub when someone was in the bath, maybe he seen maverick as a threat with the 1 year old in the tub and maybe he thought maverick was going to jump in the tub with the 1 year old in there and took it as a threat, idk, I just know there was a reason for it, dogs just don't do that for no reason. Thanks for conversing about it and not immediately shaming the dog and the owners, I appreciate it, these were the convo's I was looking to have with people with decades/years of experience with this breed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Are you positive this was a one off and would never again happen with another dog? If you keep him, you may not want another dog as long as you have him.

There doesn’t need to be a reason we can understand, it wasn’t one thing, it was building for a long time.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

Against my better judgment we went to pick up a pup from a litter that was sired by a dog bred by me that was supposed to be our legacy because of his rankings with AKC etc. Out of 6 pups we could have picked any of the 5. My husband and my daughter fell in love with a pup that would honestly be my last pick… I wanted them to be happy. My bad. Had to return her back to the breeder at 8 months after she tried to kill my 12y.o…. It was a horrible fight. Me and kids were trying to separate them seems like forever. The BC that we have now that was very young back then actually joined the fight and bit my daughter when she was trying to pull her off… making in much more difficult. We had one smart dog that stayed away watching. Didn’t pay attention to that at that point. The pup was picked up by her breeder in less than 2 hours and the 12 y.o recovered and was with us for another 2+ years. The next time the BC as far as make a growl or anything during the next 2+ years she was getting pinned right away by the daughter of the dog that was attacked that was watching it quietly the 1st time. I have absolutely no regrets of returning the pup right away.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

Was Maverick a Giant Schnauzer or a Standard or..?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You say they got into it before.
What did that look like?
Sometimes dogs just dislike each other, just like sometimes humans just rub one another the wrong way.
It took my older dog two years to accept the puppy I brought. In the meantime, any and all attempts at aggression from the older one, and any attempt by the younger one to pester, were immediately and firmly dealt with.
They are ok with one another now, but it was a lot of work on my part.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Motovation said:


> Its just strange, I'm not a forum kind of person but the odd part of it is what has me here. And the more I talk about it and think about things the more odd it becomes, 90% of people immediately say "Get rid of the dog, he's a murderer and going to kill everyone" That's clearly not the case, I was just hoping to stumble into someone whos had a similar scenario and hear what the outcome was. Sharpest dog I've ever owned and I've had some very very very smart dogs, if we weren't capable and didn't know how these guys are supposed to be handled we wouldn't have one. We didn't get him to be a couch pillow and dress up on the holiday, we got him to train him and have him secondary trained to basically eliminate any threat to our family at whatever the cost and be a loyal companion to the family and that's how its been up to this point, I just wish I knew the reason behind that, I completely get it when dogs kill other dogs unsupervised but he burned the schnauzer under 100% supervision which is what makes me know there was a reason for it, I just wish I knew what it was. We don't know what dogs are thinking, it could have been anything, Maverick was huge for jumping in the bathtub while we were showering and hanging over the side of the tub when someone was in the bath, maybe he seen maverick as a threat with the 1 year old in the tub and maybe he thought maverick was going to jump in the tub with the 1 year old in there and took it as a threat, idk, I just know there was a reason for it, dogs just don't do that for no reason. Thanks for conversing about it and not immediately shaming the dog and the owners, I appreciate it, these were the convo's I was looking to have with people with decades/years of experience with this breed.


No problem, sometimes we have to ask a few questions before I could even offer an opinion and of course, that would only be a possibility as no one here was there for the incident, nor knows your dogs. If both you and your wife are in leadership positions over the dog(s) and fully involved with exercise and training, that rules that out. 

I feel for you but I'd take extra precautions and monitor body language from the others for awhile. Even if the dog had it'\s reasons to be PO'd, it's still very strange for an 8 month old adolescent to attack and house mate with that much intent and follow through.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> You say they got into it before.
> What did that look like?
> Sometimes dogs just dislike each other, just like sometimes humans just rub one another the wrong way.
> *It took my older dog two years to accept the puppy I brought. In the meantime, any and all attempts at aggression from the older one, and any attempt by the younger one to pester, were immediately and firmly dealt with.
> They are ok with one another now, but it was a lot of work on my part.*


This.
It took months for Harley to really warm up to Rogan who then outweighed him by 20 pounds at 8 months. Rogan is also very in-your-face/space in a friendly clumsy way. Harley has given him the lip or odd snarl, mostly when being stepped on or Rogan snuffling too much in his ear or face/personal space. I enforce what Harley is communicating to him and so far so good.

Harley is very fast, Rogan is exceedingly strong. Breaking up a dog fight between them would not be easy....happy to say that for 99+% of the time, they are best buds.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

WNGD said:


> No problem, sometimes we have to ask a few questions before I could even offer an opinion and of course, that would only be a possibility as no one here was there for the incident, nor knows your dogs. If both you and your wife are in leadership positions over the dog(s) and fully involved with exercise and training, that rules that out.
> 
> I feel for you but I'd take extra precautions and monitor body language from the others for awhile. Even if the dog had it'\s reasons to be PO'd, it's still very strange for an 8 month old adolescent to attack and house mate with that much intent and follow through.


Oh absolutely! That was something we talked about a few hours ago to was keep him under full supervision and if he starts to act odd in the least bit to handle it accordingly. She's been sending me videos this morning, kids are fine now and I think that also says a lot to me about how my oldest feels, she's doesn't feel intimidated by him anymore where-as the first day obviously she was shook up, knowing her the way I do it just rings to me is he's not putting off any vibe that makes her scared. Dad came over to the house this morning, he came over the night it happened to help out and he said he seems like the same sweat dog he always was and he's had some very high caliber chows and other protection dogs in his life so I take that opinion well.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I bought this book on dog aggression to help me with a rescue: Aggression in Dogs - Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification: Aloff, Brenda: 9781929242207: Books - Amazon.ca

The lady who wrote it breeds fox terriers. Before she understood the warning signs her dogs were giving off. two of the females latched onto each other and were not going to let go. She was only able to get the separated by filling the bathtub with water, and dunking them in it. 

She has now learned the warning signs, and know how to defuse the situation before the dogs attack each other. I am fairly sure the GSD was giving off signs before these attacks, but the owners just didn't know how to read them.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> I bought this book on dog aggression to help me with a rescue: Aggression in Dogs - Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification: Aloff, Brenda: 9781929242207: Books - Amazon.ca
> 
> The lady who wrote it breeds fox terriers. Before she understood the warning signs her dogs were giving off. two of the females latched onto each other and were not going to let go. She was only able to get the separated by filling the bathtub with water, and dunking them in it.
> 
> She has now learned the warning signs, and know how to defuse the situation before the dogs attack each other. I am fairly sure the GSD was giving off signs before these attacks, but the owners just didn't know how to read them.


I will definitely check that out, I'm a huge reader and always looking for a new one, I read probably 30 books when I started with bird dogs and that helped tremendously. In the past their signs have been pretty evident and we've handled it accordingly but I agree 100% I think the sign was probably there from the front but in the situation my wife was behind them and had a 1 year old in the bathtub she likely just missed it, In the past some of the signs we've caught was them whale eyeing each other so that could have been what was happening and from her position couldn't see it. But at that point its like shoot, what can you do if you don't see it? I feel I've been crucified for some people over mentioning that they've bickered before but what are you supposed to do? say sorry you guys don't get along, one of you has to go? Our dogs are family to us like everyone else and up to now it was just kind of bickering at each other, fed separate unless it was me supervising them. And that previous night they spent the whole night together unsupervised and didn't phase each other, I have cameras inside the house and they literally would just lay around/wander around or whatever they wanted. Just odd.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

Sunflowers said:


> You say they got into it before.
> What did that look like?
> Sometimes dogs just dislike each other, just like sometimes humans just rub one another the wrong way.
> It took my older dog two years to accept the puppy I brought. In the meantime, any and all attempts at aggression from the older one, and any attempt by the younger one to pester, were immediately and firmly dealt with.
> They are ok with one another now, but it was a lot of work on my part.


It was never a big deal really just kind of the look like they're trying to angrily make out with each other, never tried to apparently hurt each other. And that's something our trainer said was, "think of it as a human perspective, do you like everyone you've ever met? Do you run up to every person on the sidewalk or at the park and shake their hand? No, so why do we expect that from our animals, dogs are like people they have their favorites and their not so favorites" Maverick must have just worked himself to the not so favorite group. Sad but I guess that's the way nature is.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Perhaps if the bathroom was a small space the dog felt cornered. My adult dog does not like being in tight quarters with my new dog. I can tell he feels he has no escape. Much like being on leash and feeling no escape possible. If the two dogs had no trust of each other and the relationship was poor I could see how a fight could break out. Then add the human reaction more fuel on a already bad situation.


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

@Motovation 

Here are a couple of good videos that may help you or others:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Apex1 said:


> Perhaps if the bathroom was a small space the dog felt cornered. My adult dog does not like being in tight quarters with my new dog. I can tell he feels he has no escape. Much like being on leash and feeling no escape possible. If the two dogs had no trust of each other and the relationship was poor I could see how a fight could break out. Then add the human reaction more fuel on a already bad situation.


I thought about that too. A small space, the adult was occupied with two small children. We don’t know how much noise the children were making or if something else was going in that she didn’t notice. They were also two males. Another reason to get dogs of different genders.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Motovation said:


> It was never a big deal really just kind of the look like they're trying to angrily make out with each other, never tried to apparently hurt each other. And that's something our trainer said was, "think of it as a human perspective, do you like everyone you've ever met? Do you run up to every person on the sidewalk or at the park and shake their hand? No, so why do we expect that from our animals, dogs are like people they have their favorites and their not so favorites" Maverick must have just worked himself to the not so favorite group. Sad but I guess that's the way nature is.


We can give you opinions, but it would be more helpful for you to consult with a behavior specialist who understands dog dynamics and dog to dog aggression. It’s very possible the older dog was giving aggressive signals to the younger one that you or your wife didn’t understand or even notice. Have the person observe your dog in a variety of situactions including your home and given an analysis. It’s possible there are behaviors you and your family could change that might be triggering your dog. It’s possible they just didn’t get along and the bigger dog took care of it in the only way he knew how. His age concerns me as he hasn’t reached full maturity. I would want to have some kind of idea if his behavior was a one time event or if it could become a pattern and what you could do to stop it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Re: the book on Dog Aggression - it's quite expensive, but if you buy the Kindle edition, which is what I did, you can save a lot of money! I highly recommend it!

Quote from the book: 
The same male Smooth Fox Terrier who will allow a puppy to pull on his ears is ready and willing to be immediately reactive and unfriendly to any intact male, known or unknown, threatening or not. All that is required is the olfactory stimulation of testosterone, accompanied by any remotely challenging body language or more than a glance of eye contact. The Terriers, as a group, are well known among their aficionados to have a tendency toward being “dog hot.”

Aloff, Brenda. Aggression In Dogs - Practical Management, Prevention & Behaviour Modification (Kindle Locations 510-513). Dogwise. Kindle Edition. 

So you had a terrier a breed that tends towards male on male aggression, and an 8 month old male GSD that is likely starting to mature sexually. Sounds like a good recipe for disaster.


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

Motovation said:


> Your comment was very unhelpful and very insulting. You do not know how much knowledge my wife or me have or how much time either of us have or our capabilities. First off, your CNN definition was very very wrong. I let him go with me present in what happened was not what I expected to happened which did not and now he could care less about the cats he just wanted to catch them because from day 1 they've ran from him, catch is over, he's moved on. Second, he DID NOT charge through the fence and attack another dog as your making is out to be, his collar died in the brief moment that I checked it and we went outside together so in turn that means the fence was not a factor as he would normally mind it by a few feet, he ran at a galloping speed over to checkout the kids and dog and sniffed the dog and came running back over to me. I'm sorry but your comment was very very offensive and judging by your posts you should stay in your lane.


Could you please clarify to me were I was insulting and offensive as that was not my intention also I don't know what CNN is...all I was trying to say was maybe he might need a few more boundary rules in place moving forward and I was wishing you luck with him with great sincerity again sorry for upsetting you it was not my intent 
but turn please don't think you know me by what I post here


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## T U N D R A (Oct 7, 2014)

Motovation said:


> Your comment was very unhelpful and very insulting. You do not know how much knowledge my wife or me have or how much time either of us have or our capabilities. First off, your CNN definition was very very wrong. I let him go with me present in what happened was not what I expected to happened which did not and now he could care less about the cats he just wanted to catch them because from day 1 they've ran from him, catch is over, he's moved on. Second, he DID NOT charge through the fence and attack another dog as your making is out to be, his collar died in the brief moment that I checked it and we went outside together so in turn that means the fence was not a factor as he would normally mind it by a few feet, he ran at a galloping speed over to checkout the kids and dog and sniffed the dog and came running back over to me. I'm sorry but your comment was very very offensive and judging by your posts you should stay in your lane.


 youre posting in a public forum .
not all opinions are going to be what you want to hear . your "well trained" dog attacked and killed another .. thats Huge . you cant hav it both ways where your dog did this and yet you defend him and no one is to blame .
I agree with parts of what WNGD said . I agree with some things you hav said . you dont hav to agree with any of the comments. the ultimate decision is yours, but taking the emotion out of a very emotional issue can be challenging .. however; instructing one to "stay in their lane" is out of line . you asked . they answered . no need to berate . even if youre already frustrated or indecisive .. not their fault .

I understand "pack" mentality . I pre-schutzhund trained my GSD myself . she listened better than the kids next door but her socialization could hav been better . that was My fault . ME . her owner . but I was super-vigilant and it was rarely an issue .
I also know breed-specific characteristics are a real thing . daschunds are ratters and are notoriously tenacious and stubborn . maybe balance your decision with real facts present in your life . if I had to deal with 2 kids while my husband is gone much of the time Id be strapped for Time to devote to dogs too .. or .. maybe she has plenty of time, IDK Im just supposing here looking for an answer for this too, because if it makes sense, its probably the right one (decision) ..

and maybe the right decision is harder to make than the easy one ..

I would never keep a dog like that in my home . were the dog defending from a stranger or trespasser, OK . but this was part of the "pack", friends or not . my kids are the priority and were it a (the breed we cant name ? is that PB ?) I would never own one of those . but GSD rules the top of my list and it would be heartbreaking to hav to make such a call for me ..

But while I voice what I would do, I cant decide for you . you are closest to the situation . your call . the fact you are thinking of the dog is wonderful, but family comes first .
I hope this comes through only with the intent nd spirit of honesty and helpfulness .
I wish you the best .


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

The first video would have been 100% more instructional if it focused on the dog instead of just Haz.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

BAD CAMERA MAN DOWN!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Motovation said:


> He stays in the house roaming free with the other 2 dogs


So you have two dogs left? I don't know if I'm missed this before. What is the remaining dogs relationship like, what sort of access do they have to each other?


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

jarn said:


> So you have two dogs left? I don't know if I'm missed this before. What is the remaining dogs relationship like, what sort of access do they have to each other?


Sorry I guess I could have been a little more clear on that, had 3 dogs total, now 2, but since day 1 they all stayed in the house together roaming free with full access to each other.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Not saying this was right or necessary, but I habitually kept my 2 males separated (room divider) for a year when we were gone for anything more than a quick outing. This was more out of an abundance of caution than any issues between the two but Harley deserves his peace sometime and I wasn't there to enforce the break if need be. Just made sense with a no-nonsense male that has killed his share of critters (squirrels, gopher, raccoon) and a pushy adolescent. But they are together barrier-less 99% of the time.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

T U N D R A said:


> youre posting in a public forum .
> not all opinions are going to be what you want to hear . your "well trained" dog attacked and killed another .. thats Huge . you cant hav it both ways where your dog did this and yet you defend him and no one is to blame .
> I agree with parts of what WNGD said . I agree with some things you hav said . you dont hav to agree with any of the comments. the ultimate decision is yours, but taking the emotion out of a very emotional issue can be challenging .. however; instructing one to "stay in their lane" is out of line . you asked . they answered . no need to berate . even if youre already frustrated or indecisive .. not their fault .
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response! I just don't care much for someone to take the time to pick out specifics and point them out to everyone and try to shame me by twisting up what I said. Emotions were what was originally driving getting rid of him, emotions have passed for everyone and logical thinking has made our decision to keep him. I do agree with the Pack member thing, thats hard to wrap my head around but there has been some pretty in depth trials being done today and everything points at being between him and the schnauz, pretty easy to read him right now and he knows he messed up. We were worried about the kids but the way he's acting towards everyone today as well as how he always has I'm not concerned in the least and I am a very protective father and would never put them in danger so that says a lot. Thank you


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

What breeds/sexes are the remaining two...one male, two males? How has their relationship been?


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

jarn said:


> What breeds/sexes are the remaining two...one male, two males? How has their relationship been?


Sorry I was a little unclear on that, 2 dogs remain including Ghost (GSD), remaining 1 dog is a female Korthals Griffon, she's 6. They've always been good together, never as much as a growl, and at night usually they sleep together. That was something else that crossed my mind was maybe it was the dominance over the female.


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

Motovation said:


> Thanks for the response! I just don't care much for someone to take the time to pick out specifics and point them out to everyone and try to shame me by twisting up what I said. Emotions were what was originally driving getting rid of him, emotions have passed for everyone and logical thinking has made our decision to keep him. I do agree with the Pack member thing, thats hard to wrap my head around but there has been some pretty in depth trials being done today and everything points at being between him and the schnauz, pretty easy to read him right now and he knows he messed up. We were worried about the kids but the way he's acting towards everyone today as well as how he always has I'm not concerned in the least and I am a very protective father and would never put them in danger so that says a lot. Thank you


IMO, it is not the dog that "messed up". It is the owners, the leaders of the pack, that messed up in managing and training - set the dog up for failure.

From your description, you have a free for all with no structure. JMO.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

markdog said:


> IMO, it is not the dog that "messed up". It is the owners, the leaders of the pack, that messed up in managing and training - set the dog up for failure.
> 
> From your description, you have a free for all with no structure. JMO.


Haha Thanks Karen ill keep that in mind next time I have a pack of miniature poodles, curious where you interpret a "Free for all with no structure"?


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

markdog said:


> IMO, it is not the dog that "messed up". It is the owners, the leaders of the pack, that messed up in managing and training - set the dog up for failure.
> 
> From your description, you have a free for all with no structure. JMO.


Lot of people on here with good information who have a good idea of what they're talking about. More people on here that are likely from California, watch CNN an dress up their teacup chihuahua on the weekends for photo shoots.


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## Motovation (Dec 27, 2021)

Thanks for the HELPFUL responses everyone! Made my decision and moving on.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Haha. Why are you picking on California? Actually, the ones you think are criticizing you are not from Cali and don’t have Chis. Some who are located there have good responses.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Our 80 lb German teacup Chihuahuas


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