# Does this dog look strange to anyone else?



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I came across this video accidentally (was searching for something else) but something about this dog seems "off" so I was wondering, is it just me or does anyone else notice it or does anyone know what the problem might be to cause this, or is it just the dog's conformation?

Link:

Dailymotion - Gentle Giant German Shepherd Ash - Giant German Shepherds - a Animals video


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Agree. To me, the dog looks "sore". To me, his back has that i'm in pain humped back. I see that posture in my lab who is in pain from bad knees and hips. I even think the dog is careful when taking steps. So I was surprised when the playing scene came along. thus I might be way off.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Honestly......I don't see anything "painful" in this dog.? He doesn't look "odd" or crippled...._not to me anyway_...
He just looks to be a very large, coated male from a multi bloodline.
He looks happy and healthy.....and the owners "obviously" think very highly of him to produce the video.....
To me...he looks like an average, over sized, coated male.....really...nothing more...nothing less.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> I came across this video accidentally (was searching for something else) but something about this dog seems "off" so I was wondering, is it just me or does anyone else notice it or does anyone know what the problem might be to cause this, or is it just the dog's conformation?
> 
> Link:
> 
> Dailymotion - Gentle Giant German Shepherd Ash - Giant German Shepherds - a Animals video


I tell you what is off. We are so used to our energetic, driven, fast and agile dogs that anything else, that doesn't come close to our agile dogs, seems off. Too big, too heavy, not agile/graceful enough... just looks off.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I tell you what is off. We are so used to our energetic, driven, fast and agile dogs that anything else, that doesn't come close to our agile dogs, seems off. Too big, too heavy, not agile/graceful enough... just looks off.


good point!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I think part of what I am seeing and not used to is the roached back. Although it is not extreme. When he walks he goes down on his hocks on his back legs. He doesnt look painful in any way, it is just his conformation.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

I think that this dog looks fine. perhaps just a little stiff maybe, And his back looks over arched, But he doesn't look in any pain or anything. The music was a little sad for a happy shepherd playing with the other dog!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> I think part of what I am seeing and not used to is the roached back. Although it is not extreme. When he walks he goes down on his hocks on his back legs. He doesnt look painful in any way, it is just his conformation.


I agree. His movement matches his size and structure. Kind of stodgy. Some people like that big hairy look. Some people like to say how BIG
their dog is. BIG BIG BIG


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

He's obviously way too big, but what makes him look odd is that he walks under himself with his rear end and I don't like his tail set.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I tell you what is off. We are so used to our energetic, driven, fast and agile dogs that anything else, that doesn't come close to our agile dogs, seems off. Too big, too heavy, not agile/graceful enough... just looks off.


That's it, he looks listless.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think he's roached. i think his fur makes him look that way.



dawnandjr said:


> I think part of what I am seeing and not used to is the roached back. Although it is not extreme. When he walks he goes down on his hocks on his back legs. He doesnt look painful in any way, it is just his conformation.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think his movement looks different
because of his size. the breeder breeds
over sized Shepherds.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

He looks like a GSD in a newfoundlands body...not a good look IMHO


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

He has a high tailset, and rooted tail, and he's not overroached either. While probably not the most pleasing to the GSD topline connoisseurs, it's normal and the high tailset will ensure that the dog will not suffer from perianal fistulas so common in the breed. 

I see nothing wrong with the dog (besides his size).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought Newfoundland too. He looks like a Newf in an over-sized GSD coat and acts like one. He even has the expression of a newf. 

And the collar is all wrong for him. His mane is thick and heavy and they have that collar on him so tight that it almost looks embedded. I do not know what kind of collar would be best for the geriatric looking 3.5 year old dog, but my guess if you hold that nylon one up to your nose it is going to STINK! 

I am sure his people love him, and think the world of their pet. But he is certainly not anything I would want to use for a stud.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> I thought Newfoundland too. He looks like a Newf in an over-sized GSD coat and acts like one. He even has the expression of a newf.
> 
> And the collar is all wrong for him. His mane is thick and heavy and they have that collar on him so tight that it almost looks embedded. I do not know what kind of collar would be best for the geriatric looking 3.5 year old dog, but my guess if you hold that nylon one up to your nose it is going to STINK!
> 
> I am sure his people love him, and think the world of their pet. But he is certainly not anything I would want to use for a stud.


Even a newfoundland looks more graceful and slimmer than that dog in the video.
http://cadaverblender.com/images/newfoundland.jpg


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Once again, we pick a random dog on youtube and pour a bucket of dirt on the dog and the owners. I am going to email this thread to the dog owners so they have a chance to protect their name and their dog from 'gsd lovers' on our board. What a shame.
http://www.pioneergermanshepherds.com/aboutourlongcoatgermanshepherds.html


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Once again, we pick a random dog on youtube and pour a bucket of dirt on the dog and the owners. I am going to email this thread to the dog owners so they have a chance to protect their name and their dog from 'gsd lovers' on our board. What a shame.
> Pioneer German Shepherds - Long Coat German Shepherd Breeder - Pennsylvania German Shepherd Breeder - PA GSD Breeder


Nobody questions that they love them. However, those dogs should not be used for breeding purposes, however debating so called "old fashioned" breeders is like beating a dead horse. :crazy:


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree, he looks all under himself- almost like he just woke up.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

No, everybody just says that the dog sucks and is crippled and his collar stinks. Why don't we go to the pictures section and tell the same to those who post their oversized pups instead of 'what a beautiful and gorgeous big guy'? 

Mrs.K, I think that arguing about not breeding 'old fashioned' is beating a dead horse and preaching to the choir on this board, so the only purpose of this thread is bashing poor Ash...


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I think the whole back end of the dog and the way he carries himself on his rear legs doesn't look right. Probably just because he is oversized, but not what I am used to seeing I guess.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't see anything wrong with him either, other than being big and hairy Maybe he wasn't as energtic in the video, but it was a video! I'm sure the person taking the video was trying to get across that he was nice looking, great with kids, if he was racing around making a jerk of himself, how would one be able to really see him?

While I am not into "big" and "hairy",,the breeder DM tests , they are ofa'd, and is selling them as COMPANIONS no breeding rights...Heck I've seen far far worse and there certainly aren't alot of breeders DM testing their dogs now a days. 

For someone who is looking for a BIG dog, they should probably check them out. Because they aren't some people's cup of tea, I'll bet alot of people , which we see all the time on here, are looking for just that type..


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Well that's true! Lots of people want the big strong silent type.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> No, everybody just says that the dog sucks and is crippled and his collar stinks. Why don't we go to the pictures section and tell the same to those who post their oversized pups instead of 'what a beautiful and gorgeous big guy'?
> 
> Mrs.K, I think that arguing about not breeding 'old fashioned' is beating a dead horse and preaching to the choir on this board, so the only purpose of this thread is bashing poor Ash...


I really didn't see anyone bashing the dog. They just said he was oversized, and I believe some people said he looked fine.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with the dog, just different from what the GSD standard is, and nothing ethnically wrong with breeding him. His hips are tested, they claim he's healthy... Why don't border collie people just bash anyone who breeds GSDs because they're different from _their_ standard, less agile, larger, and may be prone to more health problems? Because the GSD has a standard? Why not write these dogs a standard so it becomes ethical to breed _them_?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GSD07 said:


> Once again, we pick a random dog on youtube and pour a bucket of dirt on the dog and the owners. I am going to email this thread to the dog owners so they have a chance to protect their name and their dog from 'gsd lovers' on our board. What a shame.


I didn't post the video for people to say bad things about this dog. I just saw the video and something about the dog's movement looked strange/off to me but I could not put my finger on it... So I wanted to post to see if others could figure out what it was, or whether it was just my imagination, or just normal conformation. I don't know enough about conformation or different types/lines to know whether it was just a variation or "look" that you get in a certain line or something, or if it was something else going on. I figured out why he looked 'off' to me though, the way he was walking in the video is how my dog walks when she's about to go to the bathroom, so it looks strange to me (I almost expected him to stop and 'go' at some point!)

ETA: I actually like some of those "old fashioned" Shepherds-- one of the breeders I had been considering before I got my GSD was Royalair which advertised that type (they have some pretty dogs IMO). However their dogs don't move like the dog in this video (at least the ones I've seen videos of do not.)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well unfortunately when you post another persons dogs, for whatever reason, your going to get negatives and positives it comes with the territory


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I really didn't see anyone bashing the dog. They just said he was oversized, and I believe some people said he looked fine.


 Ok, just for fun, here’s the ‘not bashing’ collection of compliments given to Ash so far: something is ‘off’, looks ‘sore’, too big, too heavy, not agile/graceful enough, his back over arched, stodgy movement, walks under himself with his rear end, listless, a Newfoundland in a GSD body but even newf looks more gracefull and slimmer, geriactric looking 3.5 year old with a stinky collar, doesn’t look right.

Diane, I agree, and that's why it's better not to post someone else's dogs for any critique and analysis. I would be very upset if someone would grab a picture of Anton and tore him apart on some web board. I realize that it was not the purpose of the OP but it turned this way as it usually does.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> No, everybody just says that the dog sucks and is crippled and his collar stinks. Why don't we go to the pictures section and tell the same to those who post their oversized pups instead of 'what a beautiful and gorgeous big guy'?
> 
> Mrs.K, I think that arguing about not breeding 'old fashioned' is beating a dead horse and preaching to the choir on this board, so the only purpose of this thread is bashing poor Ash...


Not sure why you are so upset. Ash certainly doesn't care. And Im sure his owners are proud of him. Its merely peoples opinion on this board that he doesn't represent the breed well. Its just an opinion.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Ok, just for fun, here’s the ‘not bashing’ collection of compliments given to Ash so far: something is ‘off’, looks ‘sore’, too big, too heavy, not agile/graceful enough, his back over arched, stodgy movement, walks under himself with his rear end, listless, a Newfoundland in a GSD body but even newf looks more gracefull and slimmer, geriactric looking 3.5 year old with a stinky collar, doesn’t look right.
> 
> Diane, I agree, and that's why it's better not to post someone else's dogs for any critique and analysis. I would be very upset if someone would grab a picture of Anton and tore him apart on some web board. I realize that it was not the purpose of the OP but it turned this way as it usually does.


The OP thought something was off, doesn't mean it was bad. He is a big dog, nothing wrong with that. He could loose a few, but maybe thats just me.Some people did make some comments on what they saw, but not all of the comments were that mean. People have said worse on other dogs. But otherwise he looks just like an oversized long haired GSD.

The OP posted the dog's picture and asked about it. There are going to be positive and negative responses whether you like it or not. And everyone here is entitled to an opinion. No need to get all defensive about it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Unfortunately, that entitled opinion is expressed behind the dog's owner's back... But I agree, no need for to get defensive about it, I'll better go and play with my own dog  Peace


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Unfortunately, that entitled opinion is expressed behind the dog's owner's back... But I agree, no need for to get defensive about it, I'll better go and play with my own dog  Peace


If the owner comes on here I am sure people will have questions. And it may shed some light on things.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> Once again, we pick a random dog on youtube and pour a bucket of dirt on the dog and the owners. I am going to email this thread to the dog owners so they have a chance to protect their name and their dog from 'gsd lovers' on our board. What a shame.


I agree, Oksana. OK the dog is NOT my cup of tea (don't like the size, weight, coat, lines, etc) but I think it's ridiculous to start speculating about whether or not something is wrong with the dog.

I have a healthy, normal sized male 2 year old (standard height, 72lbs), healthy, not "loose", OFA Good hips and I've always felt he moves kinda funny in the rear. When he is moving slow (like slowing than when we are walking down the street), he sometimes drags his rear feet. However he has no known issues. Like I said, OFA Good hips, he's had three different sets of x-rays taken (two of those done by a world renowned radiologist), spine x-rayed and checked....nothing wrong except an extra vertebra that is not supposed to cause any outward symptoms, but in my dog's case, it does ever so slightly effect his movement at a slow pace (the dog is SG2 rated at 13 months, CH title as well so moving at a walk, gait, fast gate, etc is normal). 

You cannot begin to pass judgments about a random dog based on one video that is barely of any diagnostic value. Also you cannot assume that "issues" with movement are automatically due to size, weight, pedigree, etc. So whether or not something is "off" with this dog, why would I care or what would I assume even if something was?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> Once again, we pick a random dog on youtube and pour a bucket of dirt on the dog and the owners. I am going to email this thread to the dog owners so they have a chance to protect their name and their dog from 'gsd lovers' on our board. What a shame.
> Pioneer German Shepherds - Long Coat German Shepherd Breeder - Pennsylvania German Shepherd Breeder - PA GSD Breeder


It's more than that, it is people showcasing their dog and telling people to contact them for puppies.

And there is nothing wrong with people giving their opinion about a dog in an ad. Sorry, but people posting an ad about their dog on the internet, can think that people might discuss the dog in the vid. The vid is an ad. We are discussing the dog.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sorry, selzer, you are badmouthing the dog. The owner did not come to this website to advertise their dog neither a member of this board asked about this breeder or dog in question in regards of getting a puppy. If you wanted to respond to the video you had to comment under that video. 

Your 'opinion' about this dog is quite a contrast to opinion expressed by another breeder, Robin, in the same thread. Next time you post pictures of your dog I'll make sure I voice my honest opinion about your showcase advertisement without regards to your feelings.

Lies, I completely agree with you.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Funny, when I watched the video I realized I have their website saved as a favorite because I personally like that "fluffy" look. Their black ones that attracted me to their site last year look nicer though.
They had an advertisement for solid black long coats last year and I liked the look. I want the Black LC look more than the extreme large size but it's the health and temperament that is most important. The video shows them playing and chasing each other, not sure how a dog in a relaxed state seems off. LOL


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I do think his back end was moving funny and he looked stiff and possibly in pain. Maybe it's because he is so big but definitely not my cup of tea either


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Liesje said:


> I agree, Oksana. OK the dog is NOT my cup of tea (don't like the size, weight, coat, lines, etc) but I think it's ridiculous to start speculating about whether or not something is wrong with the dog.
> 
> I have a healthy, normal sized male 2 year old (standard height, 72lbs), healthy, not "loose", OFA Good hips and I've always felt he moves kinda funny in the rear. When he is moving slow (like slowing than when we are walking down the street), he sometimes drags his rear feet. However he has no known issues. Like I said, OFA Good hips, he's had three different sets of x-rays taken (two of those done by a world renowned radiologist), spine x-rayed and checked....nothing wrong except an extra vertebra that is not supposed to cause any outward symptoms, but in my dog's case, it does ever so slightly effect his movement at a slow pace (the dog is SG2 rated at 13 months, CH title as well so moving at a walk, gait, fast gate, etc is normal).
> 
> You cannot begin to pass judgments about a random dog based on one video that is barely of any diagnostic value. Also you cannot assume that "issues" with movement are automatically due to size, weight, pedigree, etc. So whether or not something is "off" with this dog, why would I care or what would I assume even if something was?


Lies... wasn't the reason for nikon's foot dragging caused by some kind of injury he received at birth? Wasn't there some kind of pelvic deformation that showed up on one of his x-rays?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I remembered you mentioning that either here or the other forum..?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> Sorry, selzer, you are badmouthing the dog. The owner did not come to this website to advertise their dog neither a member of this board asked about this breeder or dog in question in regards of getting a puppy. If you wanted to respond to the video you had to comment under that video.
> 
> Your 'opinion' about this dog is quite a contrast to opinion expressed by another breeder, Robin, in the same thread. Next time you post pictures of your dog I'll make sure I voice my honest opinion about your showcase advertisement without regards to your feelings.
> 
> Lies, I completely agree with you.


If I post a picture of my dog, and with it the statement to contact me if you are interested in puppies, then you go ahead and make all the comments you want. In fact, that is against board rules, to advertise puppies for sale. And I do not remember ever putting my photos out there saying that I wanted people to contact me who are interested in puppies. I do not use this site for that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

krystyne73 said:


> Funny, when I watched the video I realized I have their website saved as a favorite because I personally like that "fluffy" look. Their black ones that attracted me to their site last year look nicer though.
> They had an advertisement for solid black long coats last year and I liked the look. I want the Black LC look more than the extreme large size but it's the health and temperament that is most important. The video shows them playing and chasing each other, not sure how a dog in a relaxed state seems off. LOL


Because the comparison between them chasing each other, and "normal" Shepherds chasing each other is a huge difference. I wouldn't even call it chasing, it was an attempt to chase but he just looks like he couldn't hold up a "real" chase.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I watched the long, tedius video 1 time. This is him next to our six foot.... And I was not the only person who felt the dog reminded them of a newf. That was just an opinion. And I noticed the collar on the dog and it detracted from the dog's appearance. Big Deal! You act as though I said it was the ugliest dog on earth and that the breeders have to be a puppy mill. 

The difference in our breed between the various showlines, working lines, coat colors, and coat types, you will definitely find people who dislike different dogs for whatever reason. For some reason this dog is grossly over-sized. I would not be surprised if someone down the line did not mix something in for size. GSDs were never meant to be massive, and when you have one that is nearly double the standard, you have to wonder. 

But I did not wake up this morning and think, boy I am going to go and cut down someone's dog today, that is like way fun. Had I, I would have said something nasty.


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Well that's true! Lots of people want the big strong silent type.


Then they should look into a different breed, not change what the GSD is. JMO


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Dr89 said:


> Then they should look into a different breed, not change what the GSD is. JMO


It doesn't appear to me that they were out to "change what the GSD is", just create what, in their opinion, is a version of GSD that a group of people would prefer. There will always be bred to standard working like GSDs by serious, knowledgable breeders and the fact that every once in a while a hobby breeder will attempt to create their own breed will not cause the standard bred GSD to become extinct. 
...and people blaming breeders for the "overpopulation problem" is also getting old.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A hobby breeder is one who puts their time and effort and money into raising, training, titling, breeding the overall dog that is a good representative of the breed. They are not people who are exploiting a fault in their dog by breeding and deliberately trying to breed to produce that trait. 

Hobby-breeders are serious breeders. Serious breeders do not breed specifically for any particular fault.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

selzer, I'm even scared to think what is your definition of 'nasty' LOL
The breeder is aware of this thread and will be here soon to answer all your questions.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> A hobby breeder is one who puts their time and effort and money into raising, training, titling, breeding the overall dog that is a good representative of the breed. They are not people who are exploiting a fault in their dog by breeding and deliberately trying to breed to produce that trait.
> 
> Hobby-breeders are serious breeders. Serious breeders do not breed specifically for any particular fault.


Agreed!


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> If the owner comes on here I am sure people will have questions. And it may shed some light on things.


Well the owner is now HERE  I don't always have time to frequent message boards so if anyone does want much more specific info they can always email but I was alerted by someone that apparently there is some "misinformation" going on about my dogs. I love all the internet experts that can diagnose and base something based on one video. And I also loved the comments about how in that video is a geriatric looking 3.5 year old with a "stinky collar" that "looks to be embedded". Come on, can't anyone say that they clearly see the dog is being emotionally abused as well? I'd expect that to be posted next. However, here is is at almost 6 years of age, he's definitely NOT a hock walker and is not roached! He does have a slight curvature to his back due to having some West German lineage. If he looked geriatric to someone at 3.5, wonder if they would think he looks almost dead now? 

http://www.pioneergermanshepherds.com/2011ash6.jpg

As far as Ash clearly having hip or movement problems, what???? Nope, and loves to run. He is OFA'd, albeit fair however that is completely within the range of normal hips and as of now we've only produced one pup with HD, which will occasionally happen regardless of the breeder. I'm sure certain people want to "see" things with his hips because he's a certain size though. He also has been tested as a clear non-carrier of degenerative myelopathy (drats, so I guess that account for the so-called funny movement either) and TLI tested normal, 25.1. As far as his weight goes, he's perfectly within normal range for his size  Our vets have no problem with any of our dogs being "fat" or "not able to move like they should", neither does the local dog wardens, one who used to train shepherds for the military.

I understand not everyone likes big dogs. The facts are I am breeding what I state. Our dogs are healthy (perhaps an absolute shock and dismay to some), are health tested, and are not the driven dogs like what some working line breeders have nor the look of the various showlines. I guess I can pull up videos on the internet and make the same armchair veterinary remarks about dogs with loose hips, embedded stinky collars and fat butts, however it doesn't make it so based on one video alone and having "preconceived notions" as to a particular type. Now, to make it clear...I don't care if someone calls any of my dogs ugly, that I DON'T mind. Not everyone likes everything, and obviously I'm already acutely aware that most breeders of GSD will not like my type of dog. However, statements that are trying to say that our dogs are sickly or mistreated I will not tolerate. Regarding his collar being "embedded" into his neck, he has long fur...duh. His collar is perfectly fine you can put multiple fingers in it, while it is thick and may be ugly, I prefer the large size so the kids can hang on it. As far as his "stinking collar" goes, what a WEIRD comment 

Obviously coming onto a forum like this, just like with most of the other GSD forums, most will not like larger GSD, so of course it's like how much effort should I put in to fight a gang up of 20 to 1. However, I will say this, why is it that almost 20% of the GSD tested through the OFA test with some form of dysplasia? Obviously it's not just due to size, because most shepherds are well within the normal standard size. Hip dysplasia will be aggravated by excess weight, true. People that don't care about their dogs and just breed the biggest to the biggest without any regards to health (and most likely do not bother to do any type of testing anyway) will probably produce dysplastic dogs. That is not us, and while I am sure there are "breeders" out there (most likely through the classified ads) that do this, I know there are many of the larger GSD breeders that do health testing as well. Can I attest to what they do? Nope, I can only say what we do. From a business standpoint, since someone mentioned this was an "ad critique", frankly it would be stupid for me to breed a dog that either has problems or produces problems. Why? Because for my contract, I do not offer a puppy as a replacement. I give $ back if the dog has an issue, and since we're only hobby breeders who don't produce many puppies anyway, why would I want to produce dogs where I know I'll end up having to give back $$? Unfortunately, there are people out there that like to circulate that big = hip dysplasia. If that is the case, then anyone that buys a small GSD is all set because if big = hip dysplasia, wouldn't small = no dysplasia? Of course not. It's about the health of your lines, knowing your dogs and what they produce, knowing what their relatives have produced. Hip dysplasia is still going to happen, regardless, but you try to do the best you can to limit it. 

Some of these comments made about Ash are made because of the notion that big GSD automatically have dysplasia, that "clearly their frames cannot support their weight" or "just because they're bred larger than they were meant to be", hence the problems. Hogwash. Why is it then that on OFA's website, some of the breeds that have less of a percentage for dysplasia versus the GSD include giant breeds (including the LARGEST breeds of all) such as the Irish Wolfhound, the Great Pyrenees, the Anatolian Shepherd, the Great Dane, the Leonberger, the Tibetan Mastiff, and the Kuvasz. What I find interesting is that the Belgian Sheepdog, Tervuren , Malinois, and Dutch Shepherd, all VERY comparable breeds, have much better % than the GSD at 2.9% / 3.5 % / 5.4 / 7.1 % dysplasic of dogs tested. Obviously the GSD has been a top 10 breed for a long time, and this is where one of the issues lie. People just wanting to crank out puppies. It's not due to size, but breeding practices. In the end though, assuming a dog automatically has dysplasia or reading into the dog "walking funny" JUST due to knowing the size is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure that most on here will disagree with any or everything I have to say, but that's the way it is. Call my dogs ugly, TOO BIG, "shameful to the breed founder and a disgrace to Von Stephanitz", I can live with that. Don't call into question health issues that aren't there or try to say our dogs are mistreated due to someone seeing something that isn't there. I understand a lot of you don't like larger dogs, but don't let that be a motivation to make off-the-wall claims. Oh well, I've said my peace, don't know if there would be a point in responding to anything else but "Que Sera, Sera".


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My definition would probably include putting LOL at the end of a statement when you are making a deliberate attempt to pretend to soften the statement. What exactly are you Laughing Out Loud at. 

I have no questions for the breeder. None at all. Their website says they are specifically breeding for over-sized dogs. That is enough for me. I know what I need to know.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

At you, selzer, at you and your 'my way or highway' attitude. LOL LOL LOL


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Chicagocanine said:


> I didn't post the video for people to say bad things about this dog.





JakodaCD OA said:


> well unfortunately when you post another persons dogs, for whatever reason, your going to get negatives and positives it comes with the territory


Sorry what I meant was, I didn't post the video to purposefully have bad things said about the dog, I posted it to ask about what I saw because I was curious but am not knowledgeable enough on conformation to know whether it was a normal type of thing seen in some lines, normal conformation, or something else.




GennieF said:


> I understand not everyone likes big dogs.
> ...
> Obviously coming onto a forum like this, just like with most of the other GSD forums, most will not like larger GSD, so of course it's like how much effort should I put in to fight a gang up of 20 to 1.


I actually happen to like some of the larger GSDs (not necessarily *because* of the size but just liked the dogs); a breeder I had been considering (actually one whose website I had saved for a long time and kept going back to) is one who breeds for the "old fashioned" GSDs although I did not end up getting a puppy from them because I decided not to get a puppy after all (I had just lost two senior dogs and thought a puppy might be too big of a shock.)


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> Sorry what I meant was, I didn't post the video to purposefully have bad things said about the dog, I posted it to ask about what I saw because I was curious but am not knowledgeable enough on conformation to know whether it was a normal type of thing seen in some lines, normal conformation, or something else.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually happen to like some of the larger GSDs (not necessarily *because* of the size but just liked the dogs); a breeder I had been considering (actually one whose website I had saved for a long time and kept going back to) is one who breeds for the "old fashioned" GSDs although I did not end up getting a puppy from them because I decided not to get a puppy after all (I had just lost two senior dogs and thought a puppy might be too big of a shock.)


I think you were being genuine in asking a question, someone who is sincere and not looking to bash. I watched my video again and I think part of what people may think is Ash "in pain" is actually him walking on crusty snow. The snow had glazed over the top because it had snowed a day or two prior, and you know what happens when the sun starts melting the top of the snow and then it freezes overnight...crusty snow. I don't like walking in crusty snow with my two legs cause you don't know if you'll actually sink in or not, and never thought people would perceive issues and read into a video so much but such is the internet.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> I thought Newfoundland too. He looks like a Newf in an over-sized GSD coat and acts like one. He even has the expression of a newf.
> 
> And the collar is all wrong for him. His mane is thick and heavy and they have that collar on him so tight that it almost looks embedded. I do not know what kind of collar would be best for the geriatric looking 3.5 year old dog, but my guess if you hold that nylon one up to your nose it is going to STINK!
> 
> I am sure his people love him, and think the world of their pet. But he is certainly not anything I would want to use for a stud.


I said it almost LOOKS embedded and not that I thought it was. I think it detracts from the dog's appearance. I have used nylon web collars in the past, and on a hairy dog, and fitted close, those collars get nasty stinky, I will not use them anymore. But who cares it works for you.

The dog kind of reminds me of my neighbors old newfoundland, right down to his expression in that vid. I think the vid is trying to show what a calm demeaner the dog has, and too, the newf has a calm demeaner. They look around and move kind of slow and do everything very calmly. 

On your six year old picture the dog is wearing what looks like a wide leather collar, frankly, I do like leather, but I hate the look of a wide collar on a dog. That is a personal opinion, I feel it detracts from the dog's appearance. 

The picture of the six year old dog, looks fine, does not look elderly, his color is good, etc, but the elderly expression was from the way the dog was moving around in your video trying to show how calm the dog is. He looked old in that u-tube. And I like calm dogs, I certainly do not like hyper idiots. The dog simply did not have the spring of youth, it was more ponderous like that of a dog who was older or carrying too much weight for his frame. 

I did not suggest your dog was unhealthy or would have hip dysplasia or DM because of its size.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GennieF said:


> I think you were being genuine in asking a question, someone who is sincere and not looking to bash. I watched my video again and I think part of what people may think is Ash "in pain" is actually him walking on crusty snow. The snow had glazed over the top because it had snowed a day or two prior, and you know what happens when the sun starts melting the top of the snow and then it freezes overnight...crusty snow. I don't like walking in crusty snow with my two legs cause you don't know if you'll actually sink in or not, and never thought people would perceive issues and read into a video so much but such is the internet.


I have a question for you. I went through your females and Greta is a so called Schildspanner which is a bad fault and usually excludes you from breeding.
Sheba, the retired bitch is a floppy ear, was she bred? 

I am asking because my bitch's ear has some problems, however I had a vet look into it, since I don't want to breed a soft eared or faulty dog. But two dogs on your site are faulty, yet you breed them. Why?


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> I said it almost LOOKS embedded and not that I thought it was. I think it detracts from the dog's appearance. I have used nylon web collars in the past, and on a hairy dog, and fitted close, those collars get nasty stinky, I will not use them anymore. But who cares it works for you.
> 
> The dog kind of reminds me of my neighbors old newfoundland, right down to his expression in that vid. I think the vid is trying to show what a calm demeaner the dog has, and too, the newf has a calm demeaner. They look around and move kind of slow and do everything very calmly.
> 
> ...


I know what you said and was addressing a few various comments within one post. See statement above, the dog was walking on icy, crusty snow. As far as the collar goes, it is the same style of collar, not leather but nylon, straight from Wal-Mart. I don't put collars on my dogs to pretty them up, but ironically I was considering getting him a different collar. I have 4 kids, 3 of which helped learn to walk holding onto Ash, and they do like a larger collar to hold on. Ash is not stinky, only people that don't maintain their dogs would be stinky. I hope you can see where I'm coming from in my responses, regardless of a difference in opinion on some things. Like I said, I never really thought anyone would over-analyze a video but I guess it happens. I had one person post on Youtube that my OFA'd black long coat obviously had hip dysplasia because she's American lines. Maybe I should put a "Where's Waldo" pic in the next video 

To Mrs K,

Here is Greta at age 4 - http://www.pioneergermanshepherds.com/2011gretahead.jpg

All of the puppies produced from her have had nice, straight ears. Sheba was bred, yes. Her ears were originally up but were broken by a previous owner's boxer. As far as I know I have only had 3 instances where ears have not come up completely in any of my puppies and I can't rule out that at least one of the dog wasn't environmental (home with multiple dogs), but if it was something where I had a problem producing soft or weak ears then I would eliminate the dog(s).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> At you, selzer, at you and your 'my way or highway' attitude. LOL LOL LOL


Yes, well, it is my way or the highway when I am looking for a stud dog. If the dog has a disqualifying fault, or an exaggerated fault, no way would I breed to it. There are too many very nice dogs without that disqualifying fault or exaggerated fault to choose from.

The ONLY reason one would breed to this dog is if they are looking to breed over-sized dogs. Since that isn't my thing, I do not need to know any more about the breeder.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> Yes, well, it is my way or the highway when I am looking for a stud dog. If the dog has a disqualifying fault, or an exaggerated fault, no way would I breed to it. There are too many very nice dogs without that disqualifying fault or exaggerated fault to choose from.
> 
> The ONLY reason one would breed to this dog is if they are looking to breed over-sized dogs. Since that isn't my thing, I do not need to know any more about the breeder.


Excuse me? I do not stud my dogs out, nor do I sell breeding animals, so if that was what you were looking for anyhow you're right, I'm sure one of the other threads would suit you. We do NOT do studding and you're not looking to gain mutual knowledge as to how someone may see things differently from you.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> To Mrs K,
> 
> Here is Greta at age 4 - http://www.pioneergermanshepherds.com/2011gretahead.jpg
> 
> All of the puppies produced from her have had nice, straight ears. Sheba was bred, yes. Her ears were originally up but were broken by a previous owner's boxer. As far as I know I have only had 3 instances where ears have not come up completely in any of my puppies and I can't rule out that at least one of the dog wasn't environmental (home with multiple dogs), but if it was something where I had a problem producing soft or weak ears then I would eliminate the dog(s).



Thank you, that answers my question. 
While I don't like "old fashioned" dogs (lets face it, real old fashioned dogs looked more like mals than what we have today.) the ear thing really threw me off but as long as there is proof of strong standing ears, that is okay and I guess every breeder has a couple of cases where this or that ear won't come up completely and accidents happen. I have a male who only has half an ear because he ripped it off. It's kind of like his trademark 

However, how did you get into the old fashioned business anyways? 

I have to say I am one of the most opinionated persons and was literally shocked when I first heard and saw about old fashioned. Especially since we don't have these kind of breeders in Germany. However, now that I am in the US I like to know why you would breed them since there are so many breeds out there that resemble exactly what you are breeding for and turning the GSD away from what it is supposed to be.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't think people here hate oversized dogs. Its just that if we wanted an oversized or large dog we would get a Great Dane, Mastiff, or a Newfoundland.

What most of us don't like is when a breeder says they are breeding "*Old Fashioned"* German Shepherds, when GSDs weren't even that big to begin with.And many people don't like people breeding dogs for what its not supposed to be, such as the GSD is supposed to be a medium working dog, not a oversized dog.

I don't think the dog is stinky because well, I never smelled the dog.lol. And I thought the dog was probably a senior dog by the looks of the video.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I know of several breeders with GSDs who had a "broken" ear, it's not a fault if it was due to an injury (except in the show ring of course).
For example:
Hawks Hunt German Shepherds - Suzanne Clothier's breeding program, quality GSDsforobedience, agility, tracking, herding, therapy, Search & Rescue & more!




GennieF said:


> I don't put collars on my dogs to pretty them up, but ironically I was considering getting him a different collar.


I do! 
Then again, I think I have a collar/leash buying addiction so that's another issue.










Also just wanted to say, I noticed some of your dogs are from Royalair dogs, they were the breeder whose website I had saved (and kept going back to look at periodically because they had some nice dogs.) 
I was going back and forth on whether to get a puppy or an adult rescue at the time... I ended up getting neither, instead I found Bianca who was an adult but not-really-rescue from a different person (she was supposed to be a breeding/foundation female but got pyometra and spayed, so they were looking for a pet home.)

Bianca actually apparently had a "floppy" ear at a ear old-- at least one of the photos the previous owner sent me showed her with what sure looks like a floppy ear, and said it was taken when she was one. Obviously her ears have no issues now.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Wow. Over-sized German Shepherds with friendly, calm demeanors and soft temperaments. Good God. 

Why not breed miniature Clydesdales and couch potato Malinois while you're at it?


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Thank you, that answers my question.
> While I don't like "old fashioned" dogs (lets face it, real old fashioned dogs looked more like mals than what we have today.) the ear thing really threw me off but as long as there is proof of strong standing ears, that is okay and I guess every breeder has a couple of cases where this or that ear won't come up completely and accidents happen. I have a male who only has half an ear because he ripped it off. It's kind of like his trademark
> 
> However, how did you get into the old fashioned business anyways?
> ...


Well, it's not a business in a traditional sense, but is is a hobby. Also, I do want to mention that old fashioned does NOT necessarily mean oversized, but most of the time breeders that choose to breed one have the other. And ironically, the breeds you're probably thinking of are how I ended up, I had always liked the Shilohs but when the time came I got into these dogs instead.

Regarding Jessie's comment, see above as you posted while I was typing this. I never spin the yarn and tell you a tale about the 140 pound behemoths that were around back in the day. However, there were variations of sizes, yes, but overall GSD were smaller back then. Old fashioned denotes the type of appearance the dog has, at least when I describe the dog. Dogs from the '50s and '60s to me is old fashioned, I'm not talking about the founding dogs or anything like that, but obviously they were not as large as my dogs, as I state in one of my videos -






and on my FAQ page -

Old Fashioned German Shepherds - Old Style German Shepherds - FAQ: Do you have old fashioned German Shepherds / old style German Shepherds / old world German Shepherds?

Chicago, cute collar  Greta is from Royalair, and I'm sure Robin has some lines similar to mine.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Wow. Over-sized German Shepherds with friendly, calm demeanors and soft temperaments. Good God.
> 
> Why not breed miniature Clydesdales and couch potato Malinois while you're at it?


Thank you for the enlightening discussion and your helpful contributions to the topic! Actually I was thinking of incorporating mammoth DNA into my dogs next...but you may be onto something with the mini Clydesdales.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> Excuse me? I do not stud my dogs out, nor do I sell breeding animals, so if that was what you were looking for anyhow you're right, I'm sure one of the other threads would suit you. We do NOT do studding and you're not looking to gain mutual knowledge as to how someone may see things differently from you.


If I would not use your dog as a stud dog, than I would not want your dog to sire my puppy. So I would not buy a puppy out of that dog. Simple. No, I am not looking for stud dogs, I have 2011 completely mapped out, and 2012 as well. 

But hobby breeders, serious breeders, are not breeding for only this generation. They are breeding in order to take the best of what they are breeding and use it for breeding. Else, what is the point of breeding at all. If someone would sell dogs to you, and you are a breeder, but you will not sell to other breeders -- how does that work? Are you better than any other breeder out there or are your dogs not suitable to be bred in your opinion?

You do not stud your dog out, which suggests that you do not use outside studs? How do you get all your different females to be complemented by this one male? What happens if a litter turns out to be not what you were expecting? Try again? Whatever. I prefer to use a male that complements (is correct in areas where the other is weak) my female.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GennieF said:


> Well, it's not a business in a traditional sense, but is is a hobby. Also, I do want to mention that old fashioned does NOT necessarily mean oversized, but most of the time breeders that choose to breed one have the other. And ironically, the breeds you're probably thinking of are how I ended up, I had always liked the Shilohs but when the time came I got into these dogs instead.
> 
> Regarding Jessie's comment, see above as you posted while I was typing this. I never spin the yarn and tell you a tale about the 140 pound behemoths that were around back in the day. However, there were variations of sizes, yes, but overall GSD were smaller back then. Old fashioned denotes the type of appearance the dog has, at least when I describe the dog. Dogs from the '50s and '60s to me is old fashioned, I'm not talking about the founding dogs or anything like that, but obviously they were not as large as my dogs, as I state in one of my videos -
> 
> ...



That makes more sense, thank you for explaining. My great grandmother who lived through the Great Depression had GSDs and none were large like the ones you described. She liked to ones who were more athletic looking and dark colored, preferably Bi-Colored, she had a picture of one. She was a Working line person.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I know of several breeders with GSDs who had a "broken" ear, it's not a fault if it was due to an injury (except in the show ring of course).


I know all about that. Indra has an ear like that. I've been stressing over it for the longest time. She's a **** good working dog and I don't even worry about it anymore and Yukons half missing ear is a trademark and it makes them all the more lovable. 


> Dogs from the '50s and '60s to me is old fashioned, I'm not talking about the founding dogs or anything like that, but obviously they were not as large as my dogs, as I state in one of my videos -


Okay, it's good to know what you refer to as old-fashioned and now we have a common denominator. When I talk about old-fashioned I am talking about the early dogs that really look more like mals than GSD's. However the 50 and 60 dogs were not all like that. And there is not just two types, American Show and German Show. There is always the WL dog as well and they can make just as much a great pet than one of yours. 

This is my bitch and the male









Her ear used to be completely up and he lost his ear as a young dog. He got stuck in a fence and ripped it off.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GennieF said:


> Thank you for the enlightening discussion and your helpful contributions to the topic! Actually I was thinking of incorporating mammoth DNA into my dogs next...but you may be onto something with the mini Clydesdales.


They already have mini Clydesdales.











(Sorry, but I always think of Clydesdales when I see the hairless CCs!)


Maybe that's just me?









VS


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> If I would not use your dog as a stud dog, than I would not want your dog to sire my puppy. So I would not buy a puppy out of that dog. Simple. No, I am not looking for stud dogs, I have 2011 completely mapped out, and 2012 as well.
> 
> But hobby breeders, serious breeders, are not breeding for only this generation. They are breeding in order to take the best of what they are breeding and use it for breeding. Else, what is the point of breeding at all. If someone would sell dogs to you, and you are a breeder, but you will not sell to other breeders -- how does that work? Are you better than any other breeder out there or are your dogs not suitable to be bred in your opinion?
> 
> You do not stud your dog out, which suggests that you do not use outside studs? How do you get all your different females to be complemented by this one male? What happens if a litter turns out to be not what you were expecting? Try again? Whatever. I prefer to use a male that complements (is correct in areas where the other is weak) my female.


My point is that even if you were interested it wouldn't happen, Ash is unavailable as we don't DO studding. Simple, as well. I only have two litters per year, as far as using outside studs, nope. I have two males at the moment, as well as various puppies from previous litters. Sorry, but I'm not looking to breed just to produce puppies for someone else to crank out. My choice as a breeder. What if a litter does not turn out as expected? See above, try one of my alternate males. Should something happen similar even with a different male, female is eliminated or vice versa. That's the game of breeding.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> They already have mini Clydesdales.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG they can totally pull it off.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> They already have mini Clydesdales.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have to say, those are really cute but I do like the mini Clydesdale idea...hmmmm....


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I know all about that. Indra has an ear like that. I've been stressing over it for the longest time. She's a **** good working dog and I don't even worry about it anymore and Yukons half missing ear is a trademark and it makes them all the more lovable.
> Okay, it's good to know what you refer to as old-fashioned and now we have a common denominator. When I talk about old-fashioned I am talking about the early dogs that really look more like mals than GSD's. However the 50 and 60 dogs were not all like that. And there is not just two types, American Show and German Show. There is always the WL dog as well and they can make just as much a great pet than one of yours.
> 
> This is my bitch and the male
> ...


The dogs you describe are what my great grandmother liked.

I want to say this what she liked:









Along with more athletic looking dogs. But the dog in this photo is very nice and I wouldn't mind a dog that looked like that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> The dogs you describe are what my great grandmother liked.


yep, just like my overall family. They always had that type of German Shepherd and it's still what many WL dogs look like, even today. I love the 40-60 wl working line type and I am glad that most of our dogs still look like that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> The dogs you describe are what my great grandmother liked.
> 
> I want to say this what she liked:
> 
> ...


You mean more like that? Maybe?










That is my mother from the 80's.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> yep, just like my overall family. They always had that type of German Shepherd and it's still what many WL dogs look like, even today. I love the 40-60 wl working line type and I am glad that most of our dogs still look like that.


Molly is commented on how she looks like old type of GSD, mostly this is from people who grew up in the 40s-60s. I don't think she looks like that, especially her tail.lol. I don't know I could be wrong. I look at the pictures of GSDs back then and she looks relatively similar, but it could be coincidence.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> You mean more like that? Maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh what a good looking dog!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, the game of breeding is to find the right stud for the bitch. Rarely can you raise up a dog or bitch from a puppy that is perfect for another dog or bitch that you own. Sorry. If all you are breeding for is big dogs, maybe that works. But if you are trying to breed good conformation, good temperament, health, and the whole nine yards, than it just does not work that way. 

It almost does not make sense to own a dog. In a generation or two the pups are too closely related and you have to buy another dog for them, and well, that might or might not work out. You can breed to top dogs for $1000 or less, and not spend all the money on food and vet, training, titling, etc for the dog. And you can get a dog that matches your bitch and adds the genetics that might help your lines. 

But whatever. Someone was willing for you to "crank out puppies" with their pups. This is an attitude I just cannot understand. I mean either you buy the crap that PETA and the humane society are pumping out about all breeders being puppy mills with terrible conditions, or you don't. If you do, then you would not be breeding. If you don't then you would not be reticent to sell your dogs to breeders. But you in fact, are the only one, the one who is not doing this for money, for greed, you are the odd ball, the one who has a noble purpose, the only one who treats their breeding dogs well, and does not operate a puppy mill. No one else could possible be trusted with breeding rights, for they would churn out puppies for the filthy lucre.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Molly is commented on how she looks like old type of GSD, mostly this is from people who grew up in the 40s-60s. I don't think she looks like that, especially her tail.lol. I don't know I could be wrong. I look at the pictures of GSDs back then and she looks relatively similar, but it could be coincidence.


Yeah, the tail is not supposed to roll in like that and some people even consider it a fault but I do have to agree, just from the pictures, she does resemble them. She looks taller though.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Actually, the game of breeding is to find the right stud for the bitch. Rarely can you raise up a dog or bitch from a puppy that is perfect for another dog or bitch that you own. Sorry. If all you are breeding for is big dogs, maybe that works. But if you are trying to breed good conformation, good temperament, health, and the whole nine yards, than it just does not work that way.
> 
> It almost does not make sense to own a dog. In a generation or two the pups are too closely related and you have to buy another dog for them, and well, that might or might not work out. You can breed to top dogs for $1000 or less, and not spend all the money on food and vet, training, titling, etc for the dog. And you can get a dog that matches your bitch and adds the genetics that might help your lines.


That I have to agree with. One of the reasons the shepherd has so many issues is because some breeders overdid the in & linebreeding. 

I have a male that would fit perfectly my bitch. Conformation wise, temperamental wise, pedigree wise, however I'd probably have one or two litters, if I ever do breed them but if it came down to it and wanted to be a serious breeder, I'd go out and look for another stud as well. A stud that brings everything to better the genepool that I already have and to make progress and to get what I want to see. 

As a matter of fact, my bitch is heavily linebreed so I'd make sure that I wouldn't put anymore linebreeding on top of that.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> Actually, the game of breeding is to find the right stud for the bitch. Rarely can you raise up a dog or bitch from a puppy that is perfect for another dog or bitch that you own. Sorry. If all you are breeding for is big dogs, maybe that works. But if you are trying to breed good conformation, good temperament, health, and the whole nine yards, than it just does not work that way.
> 
> It almost does not make sense to own a dog. In a generation or two the pups are too closely related and you have to buy another dog for them, and well, that might or might not work out. You can breed to top dogs for $1000 or less, and not spend all the money on food and vet, training, titling, etc for the dog. And you can get a dog that matches your bitch and adds the genetics that might help your lines.
> 
> But whatever. Someone was willing for you to "crank out puppies" with their pups. This is an attitude I just cannot understand. I mean either you buy the crap that PETA and the humane society are pumping out about all breeders being puppy mills with terrible conditions, or you don't. If you do, then you would not be breeding. If you don't then you would not be reticent to sell your dogs to breeders. But you in fact, are the only one, the one who is not doing this for money, for greed, you are the odd ball, the one who has a noble purpose, the only one who treats their breeding dogs well, and does not operate a puppy mill. No one else could possible be trusted with breeding rights, for they would churn out puppies for the filthy lucre.


Wow, thank you for critiquing my whole breeding plan based on one statement, it seems you like to jump to conclusions much. And also thanks for saying I'm just breeding for big dogs, and paying no regard to anything else. Quite frankly I don't have to justify anything I do to you or anyone else, just as if you do not have to justify your actions with your specific breeding program. Apparently YOU have the only way, the be all, end all. Wait, shouldn't you be happy I'm not churning out my SPAWN of misshapen dogs to other breeders? I guess I'm not understanding why you would not be more than happy to hear something like this?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, the tail is not supposed to roll in like that and some people even consider it a fault but I do have to agree, just from the pictures, she does resemble them. She looks taller though.


Yep, it doesn't curl all the time. She does seem tall, but when I measured her she was about 24 to 25 inches.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yep, it doesn't curl all the time. She does seem tall, but when I measured her she was about 24 to 25 inches.


I remember her being a more compact dog, right? If she's on the shorter site but long legged, she might appear taller than she is. 

People always think that Indra is oversized as well because she's a long dog but she's actually not that big either. She's got 72 pounds at 15 months, it's a perfect weight and she's about 61cm. Don't know what that is in inches.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I remember her being a more compact dog, right? If she's on the shorter site but long legged, she might appear taller than she is.
> 
> People always think that Indra is oversized as well because she's a long dog but she's actually not that big either. She's got 72 pounds at 15 months, it's a perfect weight and she's about 61cm. Don't know what that is in inches.


She is long legged, people think she is part coyote. :crazy:
Here is a recent side pic:









61cm is 24.02 inches.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> Actually, the game of breeding is to find the right stud for the bitch. Rarely can you raise up a dog or bitch from a puppy that is perfect for another dog or bitch that you own. Sorry. If all you are breeding for is big dogs, maybe that works. But if you are trying to breed good conformation, good temperament, health, and the whole nine yards, than it just does not work that way.
> 
> It almost does not make sense to own a dog. In a generation or two the pups are too closely related and you have to buy another dog for them, and well, that might or might not work out. You can breed to top dogs for $1000 or less, and not spend all the money on food and vet, training, titling, etc for the dog. And you can get a dog that matches your bitch and adds the genetics that might help your lines.
> 
> But whatever. Someone was willing for you to "crank out puppies" with their pups. This is an attitude I just cannot understand. I mean either you buy the crap that PETA and the humane society are pumping out about all breeders being puppy mills with terrible conditions, or you don't. If you do, then you would not be breeding. If you don't then you would not be reticent to sell your dogs to breeders. But you in fact, are the only one, the one who is not doing this for money, for greed, you are the odd ball, the one who has a noble purpose, the only one who treats their breeding dogs well, and does not operate a puppy mill. No one else could possible be trusted with breeding rights, for they would churn out puppies for the filthy lucre.


Reading this again, all I can say is WOW! Sorry, but based on the stereotypes about big dogs, why would I want to help fuel the fire by selling to someone who may end up WANTING the "biggest of the big". Oh and actually there are a few I'd consider doing trades or full with, don't you worry  But to someone that calls up? NOPE  Some of your other wacky statements that you're just coming up, wow...so are you psychic? Want to help me with some winning lottery numbers? Hey, I bet you'd be fun on a political rant forum, but as far as dog stuff goes you're a bit out there as far as what someone says and how you interpret it. So you're saying I'm terrible for assuming things about people that may want a breeding dog but then you assume an awful lot about me with that ridiculous rant...interesting.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

@Jessie:I love her face. She's got such a feminine face and beautiful markings.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> Wow, thank you for critiquing my whole breeding plan based on one statement, it seems you like to jump to conclusions much. And also thanks for saying I'm just breeding for big dogs, and paying no regard to anything else. Quite frankly I don't have to justify anything I do to you or anyone else, just as if you do not have to justify your actions with your specific breeding program. Apparently YOU have the only way, the be all, end all.Wait, shouldn't you be happy I'm not churning out my SPAWN of misshapen dogs to other breeders? I guess I'm not understanding why you would not be more than happy to hear something like this?


I truly do not care that you are out there making your two litters per year. It will not make or break the shelters. It will not ruin the breed. It will not give people a bad taste in their mouths for GSDs. 

I think breeders need to be violently opposed to PETA/HSUS and their agenda as they are working their way through all the state legislatures and working at the Federal level as well. It sounds like you half believe their agenda, except it does not apply to you. Right now you are well within your rights to breed your big dogs. But that can go away.

I say this because you immediately jumped on the bandwagon saying that the pups you produce will not be bred, and that you would not stud out your dog. You are right, lots of people want to hear this. 

I disagree with breeding very oversized dogs and breeding specifically for over-sized dogs, but I want for people to have the right.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> She is long legged, people think she is part coyote. :crazy:
> Here is a recent side pic:
> 
> 
> ...


I think you're right, the long legs might make her look tall... At least in this photo she looks like she has really long legs, like a supermodel! 


It's interesting how much the weight can vary due to each dog's build as well-- my girl is 26" tall but she weighs less than 70 lbs (68-69 or so). I've heard of some males on the board here at that height who weigh 85+.
When she was up to around 72 she was looking a little chunky so I had to scale back a bit.. I had previously been trying to put weight on her because when I first got her she was around 60-62 lbs and underweight/under-muscled, but I guess I went a little too far in the other direction.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> Reading this again, all I can say is WOW! Sorry, but based on the stereotypes about big dogs, why would I want to help fuel the fire by selling to someone who may end up WANTING the "biggest of the big". Oh and actually there are a few I'd consider doing trades or full with, don't you worry  But to someone that calls up? NOPE  Some of your other wacky statements that you're just coming up, wow...so are you psychic? Want to help me with some winning lottery numbers? Hey, I bet you'd be fun on a political rant forum, but as far as dog stuff goes you're a bit out there as far as what someone says and how you interpret it. So you're saying I'm terrible for assuming things about people that may want a breeding dog but then you assume an awful lot about me with that ridiculous rant...interesting.


It must be late because you have totally lost me. 

Who is wanting the "biggest of the big?" What is that all about. 

There are people who you would trade with or go full with -- full registration. Fine. You are not the only breeder in the world who is ok. That is a start. 

I would not want to use your dog or get a puppy out of your dog, because I have no desire for oversized dogs. I just thought your vehement statement about not selling to breeders was interesting.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> @Jessie:I love her face. She's got such a feminine face and beautiful markings.


Thank you. I love her looks alot, I want my next GSD to be very similar to her in many ways such as looks, drive, temperament and trainability. She just has some fear issues that we are working on.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> I truly do not care that you are out there making your two litters per year. It will not make or break the shelters. It will not ruin the breed. It will not give people a bad taste in their mouths for GSDs.
> 
> I think breeders need to be violently opposed to PETA/HSUS and their agenda as they are working their way through all the state legislatures and working at the Federal level as well. It sounds like you half believe their agenda, except it does not apply to you. Right now you are well within your rights to breed your big dogs. But that can go away.
> 
> ...


Oh, but you do have that right, you have the right to vote with your feet and not give me business. Believe me, I am no friend to PETA/HSUS, however people that choose to buy a breeding dog understand upfront that they would look elsewhere. Now, as a consumer you can make a choice. Should I give this person my money and support that? Or not? Obviously the people that purchase my pups are looking for pets, not breeding dogs. 

As far as my rights to breeding oversized dogs "going away", as far as I know as of yet there is nothing within the Constitution that would allow Congress to deprive citizens of the right to breed whatever they so choose. Now, if you're talking about a specific registry allowing my dogs paperwork, then that is something different if they would only allow dogs they deem show quality or something else to be bred. AKC does not. But to make another looney statement about how my "rights to breed big dogs" will go away, where do you get this stuff?!? Do you know something that I don't?


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> It must be late because you have totally lost me.
> 
> Who is wanting the "biggest of the big?" What is that all about.
> 
> ...


The "biggest of the big" statement comes from the individuals that call that want just that. All they are interested in is size. Nothing else. No dog for them as they end up talking to a dial tone. I did not realize that I needed your specific approval as far as my breeding plans. I'm sorry but do you understand how creepy you come off sounding saying something like that? I can understand YOUR DESIRE to purchase a dog from ANYONE with full breeding rights. Now, what if you went to Papa John's and started arguing about why you couldn't have their recipe for the Papa John's pizza sauce? I mean, you do desire it. But they won't sell it to you, no matter how much you ask. You can buy the whole pizza, which has the sauce on it, but darnit you want the sauce recipe!!!!! Well, there's only so much you can do. One of the options though, is to petition Papa John's to release their pizza sauce recipe for the good of the world. Now, Papa John's can decide to do that. I guess you could probably get the government involved, but you always know what happens with that. OR, you could vote with your feet and spread via word of mouth about how MEAN Papa John's is for not selling their pizza sauce to the public. This about sums it up, right?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> I think you're right, the long legs might make her look tall... At least in this photo she looks like she has really long legs, like a supermodel!
> 
> 
> It's interesting how much the weight can vary due to each dog's build as well-- my girl is 26" tall but she weighs less than 70 lbs (68-69 or so). I've heard of some males on the board here at that height who weigh 85+.
> When she was up to around 72 she was looking a little chunky so I had to scale back a bit.. I had previously been trying to put weight on her because when I first got her she was around 60-62 lbs and underweight/under-muscled, but I guess I went a little too far in the other direction.


She acts likes a snobby super model!LOL Always giving you the look, turns her head away from something she doesn't approve of like some snob. She is a spoiled brat.lol

Molly is petite, she is about 24-25inches and around 56-66lbs.But she is very athletic, agile, fast, and energetic.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe. 

There is legislation going through just about every state legislature that will effect people breeding dogs. They call them puppy-mill bills. Because EVERYONE is against puppy mills, right? And they do have stuff in them about breeders who have 50 or more dogs. But they have stuff that regulates people with less breeding dogs. What is a breeding dog? Any intact dog over four or five months old. 

There are spay and neuter laws, and in some places you have to get a special permit to keep a dog intact beyond 4 months of age. For this permit, you have to prove that the dog IS a show dog by having been entered in shows. 

But, you cannot enter a puppy in an AKC show until it is six months old. 

Yeah, this stuff is out there, and you ought to educate yourself on what the laws mean for you, and in your state. 

There is a typical attitude that "I only have so many dogs, it will not effect me" but this is just the beginning. Once the law is on the books, they will make changes, Right now, it may be 9 breeding dogs, they can change that to four breeding dogs or even less. 

Believe it or not the hunters and the farmers have been on our side in all this. But In our state, our governor has told HSUS if they leave the farmers alone, he will sign the puppy bill. So far it has not passed both house and senate though. 

Breeders really need to be aware of what goes on. 

Are you PA? You think it cannot happen there. Was that not the state that said you cannot even drive through with a cropped or docked dog if you do not have a statement from a vet? 

You have a puppy mill problem in PA, so do we. That makes the fanatics that much more insane to pass these laws. The thing is there ARE laws the bad mills are breaking -- every time you see them bust one, that is because they are breaking laws that are on the books. We do not need more laws, we need to enforce the laws that are on the books.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> The "biggest of the big" statement comes from the individuals that call that want just that. All they are interested in is size. Nothing else. No dog for them as they end up talking to a dial tone. I did not realize that I needed your specific approval as far as my breeding plans. I'm sorry but do you understand how creepy you come off sounding saying something like that? I can understand YOUR DESIRE to purchase a dog from ANYONE with full breeding rights. Now, what if you went to Papa John's and started arguing about why you couldn't have their recipe for the Papa John's pizza sauce? I mean, you do desire it. But they won't sell it to you, no matter how much you ask. You can buy the whole pizza, which has the sauce on it, but darnit you want the sauce recipe!!!!! Well, there's only so much you can do. One of the options though, is to petition Papa John's to release their pizza sauce recipe for the good of the world. Now, Papa John's can decide to do that. I guess you could probably get the government involved, but you always know what happens with that. OR, you could vote with your feet and spread via word of mouth about how MEAN Papa John's is for not selling their pizza sauce to the public. This about sums it up, right?


No, I think all this limited registration has a place. If a pup has a fault and should not be bred, the breeder should sell the pup on a limited registration. Otherwise the pup should be sold on a full registration. 

However, no matter how good our selection is for puppy buyers, a yayhoo may slip through, and in that case if he sell the pup or decide to use it for indiscriminate breeding, a limited registration might be helpful. So people have gotten onto a kick of selling dogs only with a limited registration. 

maybe this allows them to be a little more slack in their procedure for weeding out the bad owners. Maybe not. But the majority of people looking for a pup to raise for breeding will just pass on buy. Or they will buy the dog, breed it, and beg you to change it, or just not offer papers, and get a different registration. There are ways around everything. 

I think we should be willing to sell our dogs to breeders but that should be totally up front, and people should understand why we are that much more careful to sell with a full registration. But I do not think we should just not sell anyone full breeding rights. That sounds like we are ok to breed, but no one else is.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> Maybe.
> 
> There is legislation going through just about every state legislature that will effect people breeding dogs. They call them puppy-mill bills. Because EVERYONE is against puppy mills, right? And they do have stuff in them about breeders who have 50 or more dogs. But they have stuff that regulates people with less breeding dogs. What is a breeding dog? Any intact dog over four or five months old.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, I have read that and do know about regulations in breeding dogs because of PA. But as far as legislation specific to oversized shepherds, no. I do know there were similar laws in CA regarding dogs intact over 4-5 months of age, but that is not what we are talking about. As far as PA dog law goes, if you are 26+ dogs in a calendar year, including your puppies, you are required to be a licensed kennel. We don't go over that limit as we don't have that amount of dogs + puppies. I am all for enforcing laws, not adding to new ones, but as of now there is still nothing about my dogs not being allowed to be bred versus a standard-sized dog.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> No, I think all this limited registration has a place. If a pup has a fault and should not be bred, the breeder should sell the pup on a limited registration. Otherwise the pup should be sold on a full registration.
> 
> However, no matter how good our selection is for puppy buyers, a yayhoo may slip through, and in that case if he sell the pup or decide to use it for indiscriminate breeding, a limited registration might be helpful. So people have gotten onto a kick of selling dogs only with a limited registration.
> 
> ...


Just so I get this right, you are saying you think that only in certain circumstances should the BREEDER decide who gets a full registration? In that case you need to petition the American Kennel Club. You are railing against the government imposing more laws, but then want to impose restrictions on how breeders decide to breed and sell their dogs. Asinine, you cannot have it both ways. Do you want the government to get involved in aspects of breeding? As far as I know, I don't think President Obama has promised free German Shepherds for everyone in America yet...perhaps when that time comes, the government would get involved. You are saying we need to follow laws and rules that are already on the books, but then that would mean you would need to honor AKC's regarding that they allow breeders a choice as to how they sell their dogs. Of course ther will always be sneaky people around, no doubt about it. But you wanting to sell the majority, all, or NONE of your dogs with full is YOUR CHOICE. I don't understand why you are not pro-government intervention based on the dog laws but then it almost sounds like you want some type of intervention in literally how breeders do their business. Which is it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> Oh yes, I have read that and do know about regulations in breeding dogs because of PA. But as far as legislation specific to oversized shepherds, no. I do know there were similar laws in CA regarding dogs intact over 4-5 months of age, but that is not what we are talking about. As far as PA dog law goes, if you are 26+ dogs in a calendar year, including your puppies, you are required to be a licensed kennel. We don't go over that limit as we don't have that amount of dogs + puppies. I am all for enforcing laws, not adding to new ones, but as of now there is still nothing about my dogs not being allowed to be bred versus a standard-sized dog.


no, they want NO dog breeding, they are not worried about oversized -- I never said it was because the dogs are oversized. 

You have to be in front of the bills, so you can lobby your legislature to vote against them. It isn't sufficient to know the laws and stay within them, you have to know what they are proposing. Otherwise they have this crap passed before we know what hit us. 

2 large litters can put you over 26 dogs. One litter of ten, one litter of twelve your two males and four females and you are, poof, a puppy mill and subject to all kinds of requirements. 

The law they are trying to put through here says we have to have a sprinkler system. A sprinkler system? I can have 14 adopted kids and no sprinkler system. Whatever. They want kennels to be 4'x16'. Mine are 10'x15' -- they would not pass! They are MUCH bigger than the nasty size they want, but to redo the kennels, no way is there money for all of that, it would cost tens of thousands of dollars. 

The people making these laws are not dog people. The people encouraging them are people who want ALL breeding to stop. 

Right now, we have to have a kennel license here and that means going to the courthouse and paying $50, we get five license tags, and can buy more for $1 each. That is about it. Oh yeah, you have to have a vendor's license too now. So you have to charge sales tax. 

Ah well, can't solve the world's problems tonight.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> no, they want NO dog breeding, they are not worried about oversized -- I never said it was because the dogs are oversized.
> 
> You have to be in front of the bills, so you can lobby your legislature to vote against them. It isn't sufficient to know the laws and stay within them, you have to know what they are proposing. Otherwise they have this crap passed before we know what hit us.
> 
> ...


Well laws creeping in are happening everywhere, not just with dogs. I was not aware that Ohio had strict laws. If people want to stop all the dog laws, then they need to stop the people that are making the laws and vote them out before it's too late.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Sadly, I couldn't get past the music...way too much Hallmark Afterschool Special for me.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

CarrieJ said:


> Sadly, I couldn't get past the music...way too much Hallmark Afterschool Special for me.


Actually it was from Forrest Gump


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> Just so I get this right, you are saying you think that only in certain circumstances should the BREEDER decide who gets a full registration? In that case you need to petition the American Kennel Club. You are railing against the government imposing more laws, but then want to impose restrictions on how breeders decide to breed and sell their dogs. Asinine, you cannot have it both ways. Do you want the government to get involved in aspects of breeding? As far as I know, I don't think President Obama has promised free German Shepherds for everyone in America yet...perhaps when that time comes, the government would get involved. You are saying we need to follow laws and rules that are already on the books, but then that would mean you would need to honor AKC's regarding that they allow breeders a choice as to how they sell their dogs. Of course ther will always be sneaky people around, no doubt about it. But you wanting to sell the majority, all, or NONE of your dogs with full is YOUR CHOICE. I don't understand why you are not pro-government intervention based on the dog laws but then it almost sounds like you want some type of intervention in literally how breeders do their business. Which is it?


I do not want ANYONE to tell you what to do. I never said that. 

I think that all this limited registration to everyone crap came about because of the movement spurned on by HSUS about dogs dying in shelters. People think it will be more acceptable for THEM to breed THEIR dog if they are assuring everyone that they are selling the puppies on a limited registration so that they cannot be bred. 

#1 they CAN be bred. They can offer papers even -- different registry -- UKC possibly, but certainly all the garbage registries will give them papers, or no papers. But the dogs CAN be bred.

#2 the main problem with dogs in shelters are the 75% the mixed breed dogs. Selling puppies on limited registration takes a purchaser, just like selling a pup on a full registration, so that person did not get an available pup from a shelter. 

It is just not a free pass, to say the pups will be going out on a limited registration. 

But now it seems like, if you are selling on anything but limited you are not reputable. Whatever. 

I think the limited thing is over-rated. 

But I think that if we are truly proud of our dogs, we would WANT to sell to breeders. Good breeders anyhow. Having dealt with pet people, a breeder is a breath of fresh air. For one thing a decent breeder knows what to do and what not to do. A decent breeder will TRAIN the dog. A decent breeder will CONTAIN the dog. And a breeder understands that living breathing creatures sometimes get sick, sometimes have something serious. 

But whatever, you are convinced that what I am saying is completely to diss you. Which it is really not. 

I am not worried about giving away my pizza sauce recipe. I am not afraid that someone will take my bloodlines and put me out of business by churning out puppies. I know that the Rin Tin Tin people do this, but they at least have a household dog name they are trying to carry on. Anyone that I would sell a puppy to, I would provide full registration to if they wanted it. If I think someone would breed indiscriminately, or be a puppy mill given the opportunity, they are not going to get my dog period.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> I do not want ANYONE to tell you what to do. I never said that.
> 
> I think that all this limited registration to everyone crap came about because of the movement spurned on by HSUS about dogs dying in shelters. People think it will be more acceptable for THEM to breed THEIR dog if they are assuring everyone that they are selling the puppies on a limited registration so that they cannot be bred.
> 
> ...


No, you did not correctly understand my analogy. I'm not talking about your pizza sauce recipe. I'm talking about you BUYING the pizza sauce recipe. What you ended up making this was a rant about breeders doing limited versus full, which is fine and how you'd personally prefer it if breeders offered full registration more often. That's fine, that's your opinion. However, to talk about it as if it should be some type of requirement across the board does not sit well with me, because you are then interfering with how I do business with my customers. If you were the AKC, you could decide to say "Well, we are eliminating limited registration and only going with full". At that point, there would be various options to choose from, one of which is me taking MY business elsewhere if I no longer agree with the AKC, and registering my dogs somewhere else. If you're all for petitioning breeders to sell more with full, I'm all for that as your RIGHT to do. But to make it some type of requirement somehow through the government or some other way unless it was through the AKC (then see above), nope.

Final note, I don't care a whit if selling with strictly limited makes me "look good" for that reason alone. I'm sure there are some people out there that may do it based on that, I can't speak to them, only myself.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GennieF said:


> No, you did not correctly understand my analogy. I'm not talking about your pizza sauce recipe. I'm talking about you BUYING the pizza sauce recipe. What you ended up making this was a rant about breeders doing limited versus full, which is fine and how you'd personally prefer it if breeders offered full registration more often. That's fine, that's your opinion. However, to talk about it as if it should be some type of requirement across the board does not sit well with me, because you are then interfering with how I do business with my customers. If you were the AKC, you could decide to say "Well, we are eliminating limited registration and only going with full". At that point, there would be various options to choose from, one of which is me taking MY business elsewhere if I no longer agree with the AKC, and registering my dogs somewhere else. If you're all for petitioning breeders to sell more with full, I'm all for that as your RIGHT to do. But to make it some type of requirement somehow through the government or some other way unless it was through the AKC (then see above), nope.
> 
> Final note, I don't care a whit if selling with strictly limited makes me "look good" for that reason alone. I'm sure there are some people out there that may do it based on that, I can't speak to them, only myself.


I am tired, am sick from the sun, and will be going to bed soon. I do not understand your pizza sauce analogy, no. For one thing I do not LIKE pizza. I can honestly say that though I have had pizza from half a dozen sources, the sauce did not make a lick of difference to me. If someone "buys" your recipe does that mean you can no longer use it? Does it meant that the Pizza sold down the street will taste the same as yours? 

Again, I don't want the government involved in anything. Maybe the GSDCA could give breeders a seal of approval, but they really do not have the ability to go out and do the home checks, etc. They would make terrible decisions based on conformation showing, as to who should and who shouldn't breed, etc. No, we have to govern ourselves, and we have to make choices.

Out of gas.


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## GennieF (Apr 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> I am tired, am sick from the sun, and will be going to bed soon. I do not understand your pizza sauce analogy, no. For one thing I do not LIKE pizza. I can honestly say that though I have had pizza from half a dozen sources, the sauce did not make a lick of difference to me. If someone "buys" your recipe does that mean you can no longer use it? Does it meant that the Pizza sold down the street will taste the same as yours?
> 
> Again, I don't want the government involved in anything. Maybe the GSDCA could give breeders a seal of approval, but they really do not have the ability to go out and do the home checks, etc. They would make terrible decisions based on conformation showing, as to who should and who shouldn't breed, etc. No, we have to govern ourselves, and we have to make choices.
> 
> Out of gas.


I was tired as well, but it boils down to this. You do not have a RIGHT to the pizza sauce recipe. Even if it's for "the good of the world". You are more than able to make your OWN pizza, and sell the sauce to whomever you like if you choose to, but you can't tell another business what they do. You have the right to not give that place their business if they choose not to sell you what you want. With your statements regarding:

"I disagree with breeding very oversized dogs and breeding specifically for over-sized dogs, but I want for people to have the *right*."

This is what I was addressing. People have the right to take their business elsewhere, but they do not have a right to dictate how I sell my dogs regarding breeding status. If the GSDCA got involved and made a "seal of approval", that does not mean the same thing. Arguing that you want people to have the* right* to breed a dog they get from anyone, is something completely different and would overrule my choice as a breeder to give AKC limited registration. If that's the case, why not have a set price for pup as well? You want it to be fair right, because not everyone can afford my (or many other breeder's) dogs because they are not $200


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I happen to agree with limited registration or a 'these puppies are sold as pets only with no breeding rights" It tells me the breeder doesn't want them reproduced /or contributing to the overpopulation..It is THEIR right to do so.

I also happen to agree anyone could probably get around it if they decided to.

If someone doesn't like it, oh well look elsewhere. There's plenty you can get out there for a few hundred bucks and MORE that one can breed all over the place without a care to where they will end up in life.

If one checks around on this board, there are ALOT of people who have looked for a BIG gsd, it's a fact. 

As I said in a previous post, "this" breeder is doing more health testing than others I've seen. 

Selzer do you thryoid check/DM test your breeding stock? (I'm asking you because you seem to be the only breeder other than Genie contributing to this thread)

I know there are many that feel oversized isn't contributing to the breed, but newsflash, there IS a demand for it , again check out posts on this board. 

I would also ask (genie and selzer for comparison) how many puppies/dogs have you gotten returned for whatever reason? 

Honestly I have to say, if I had only TWO choices between a puppy out of non health tested parents and one from this breeder, I would choose the breeder who health tested. 

I guess she should be burned at the stake for god forbid, xraying, dm testing, thryoid, good temperaments, and BIG HAIRY dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> He has a high tailset, and rooted tail, and he's not overroached either. While probably not the most pleasing to the GSD topline connoisseurs, it's normal and *the high tailset will ensure that the dog will not suffer from perianal fistulas so common in the breed. *
> 
> I see nothing wrong with the dog (besides his size).


I realize that this is a multipage thread but I stopped here. 

What? Is there evidence of this bolded info?


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

My pup has a limited registration, I have no interest in breeding but the breeder of my pup knowing that I was going to train for Obed. said if he earned titles and turned out to be a good healthy dog. I could call her back about changing the registration to full. 
I can see where selling pups on limited registration but being open to changing it later if the dog proves himself would be good for a breeder.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Why are people so intent on going outside of the forum and finding other people's dogs to trash. If the breeder chooses to come here and argue/discuss the breed standard, so be it..........but the last time I looked it is a free country and it is up to the buyer to educate themselves.

Now, more than ever, they have the tools available to them to do that! And the people who actually remember GSDs from the 50s and 60s are getting older every day.

Personally, the dogs are not my cup of tea as I want a working dog to - uh - work - but she is health testing and x-raying them and it sounds like shooting for a healthy pet temperament.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

jocoyn said:


> Why are people so intent on going outside of the forum and finding other people's dogs to trash.


As I said earlier, I was not looking for this dog's video and I was not posting it here just so people could trash the dog. I was actually searching Google for a totally different video and came across that one (IIRC I was searching for videos of GSDs in UKC conformation shows.) I posted it because I thought people here would be able to explain what I was seeing in the video as I've found people on this board to be knowledgeable about conformation and such.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jean >> not oksana here, but would say this,,there is no "proof" that a high tail set ensures a dog will not get fistula's because it has happened in quite a few different breeds not just gsd's...some feel that the low tail set of say most gsd's, doesn't 'help' much when a dog gets fistula's, has to do with air getting to the area, low tail set can keep the area moist,,but I doubt it has anything to do with 'getting' fistula's..


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> I was actually searching Google for a totally different video and came across that one (IIRC I was searching for videos of GSDs in UKC conformation shows.) I posted it because I thought people here would be able to explain what I was seeing in the video as I've found people on this board to be knowledgeable about conformation and such.


Did you know there's a forum for the UKC? 
UKC Forums - powered by vBulletin

You should be able to find some conformation info etc. in the Dog Events forum.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Did you know there's a forum for the UKC?
> UKC Forums - powered by vBulletin
> 
> You should be able to find some conformation info etc. in the Dog Events forum.


No I did not, thanks for the link! I've been thinking about possibly entering my girl in their alter class so I will definitely check their forum out!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jean and Diane: 
I agree with Diane that I kinda jumped the gun  High tailset will not ensure anything since PA fistula seems to be a systemic disease, but it may not put the dog into a higher risk category. Diane, this is a breed specific disease so it affects GSDs and GSD mixes almost exclusively (can find the link to this info if needed, but my vet was my original source ). 

ACVS - Perianal Fistulas in Dogs
Risk Factors
Position of their (GSD) tail, which is often carried low between the hip bones, covering the anus, is thought to be a predisposing factor (broad-base tail theory). 

I also found some mention about tailset and fistulas in the Illustrated breed standard.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

oksana, while most likely more gsd suffer from PF's vs other breeds, there are other breeds that I've seen on the PF list, huskies, greyhounds, setters, to name a few..certainly not alot, but they do happen. 

Once the old school of thought was to remove the tail,,reason being, to let air get to the area, not so anymore.

The majority of GSD's that have PF's, you'll find have other underlying problems, as allergies, ibd, sibo, etc or genetics can come into play, those are the ones that most find harder to treat. Then you have the ones , like in my case with two, that start out with anal gland issues, as in infection or blown out, that result in Fistula's,,THAT scenerio can be easier to treat, also as in my case. 

Treatment has definately come a long long way.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks for that info! 

I've been using Penaten creme with Bella. So not even sure they are really fistulas (but they seem to be and she gets a fistula below her nose/above her lip on occasion too). Weird.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Thanks for that info!
> 
> I've been using Penaten creme with Bella. So not even sure they are really fistulas (but they seem to be and she gets a fistula below her nose/above her lip on occasion too). Weird.


WHERE do you get your Penaten Creme from? Tell me, Tell me, Tell me. I am desperate for Penaten. Can't find it anywhere but online on a German Store and the prices are ridiculous.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think I got it from Amazon! If that hadn't worked I was going to go with Desitin, but knock wood...


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Time to close this one too. You can open another thread in Health about the PF.

Daphne -- Moderator


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