# Help! Training Down without a Protest.



## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

So I need some help with the "down" command. This is the only command I've been having any trouble with, so far. 

I've tired luring - this only works until she realizes there's no treat in my hand, shaping - she fights it or goes down in protest and lays on her side (is this submissive behavior she's showing? I'm never rough with her but when I put her into down she automatically goes on her side. When I first started cutting her nails, I had her roll onto her side, is this carrying forward?) and capturing with clicker training but my timing was off so we've ditched the clicker for now because I don't think I was doing anything but confusing her. I haven't added a cue to the action yet because I know we're not quite there. 

The current class we are in is completely praise/toy reward based so I've been trying to keep the training with treats at home very minimal, she loves playing tug so it's working out pretty good for us all except for the down. 

I'm at my wits end and not sure what to do next, any suggestions on what I can do to teach her would be greatly appreicated. I'm going to speak to my trainer tonight but am open to trying almost anything, nothing too extreme of course. Thanks


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

While you are still luring her into a down make sure you have a treat in your hand. When you can add a verbal command and then minimize the luring with the treat you know it's working but take your time. Are you starting with a treat in your hand at eye level and then in a swooping motion moving the treat down between the front legs and feet? That usually gets them in a down. When they finally get in the down, lots of praise and treats. "good down, etc" Then minimize the hand motion and still lots of praise and treats. Then gradually minimize to only a command with treats. Then command with only lots of praise. Also, you need to do this in several different places so the dog knows the command means the same thing no matter where you are. A fun thing to do is after the dog learns the commands, try sitting in a chair and giving the commands. It's amazing how many dogs don't realize its the same command just because you are sitting down first.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Maybe she is confused about the down because of the nail trimming. Maybe when she first goes for the down (before she rolls over) you can ask her to "wait" or "stay" to try and get her to hold that position. Maybe show her the treat before she rolls over?
I would also try treating her when trying to train her for this particular command until she gets it. 
Good luck!


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

pyratemom said:


> While you are still luring her into a down make sure you have a treat in your hand. When you can add a verbal command and then minimize the luring with the treat you know it's working but take your time. Are you starting with a treat in your hand at eye level and then in a swooping motion moving the treat down between the front legs and feet? That usually gets them in a down. When they finally get in the down, lots of praise and treats. "good down, etc" Then minimize the hand motion and still lots of praise and treats. Then gradually minimize to only a command with treats. Then command with only lots of praise. Also, you need to do this in several different places so the dog knows the command means the same thing no matter where you are. A fun thing to do is after the dog learns the commands, try sitting in a chair and giving the commands. It's amazing how many dogs don't realize its the same command just because you are sitting down first.


Thanks, I'll try this.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Bear GSD said:


> Maybe she is confused about the down because of the nail trimming. Maybe when she first goes for the down (before she rolls over) you can ask her to "wait" or "stay" to try and get her to hold that position. Maybe show her the treat before she rolls over?
> I would also try treating her when trying to train her for this particular command until she gets it.
> Good luck!


I just remembered when I started training down Raina used to roll over like she was going to get a belly rub. I started saying, Down - then as she would start to roll over swing my hand in a circular motion the direction of the correct position and say "No, down" again. She got it pretty quickly. Now she knows "show me your belly" and "down" are two separate things.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I do it a bit differently than pyratemom.  I initially lure with a treat, but as soon as the dog is consistently following the treat and dropping into a down (mark and deliver the treat), usually in the first or second short training session, I get the food out of that hand, use the lure motion with an empty hand, and then reward with the other hand. The lure motion then becomes your hand signal for that command. I don't even worry about naming it yet, a verbal cue can be added later. 

What you can run into if you continue using a food lure past the point where it's absolutely necessary is that it becomes a secondary cue, and the dog only obeys when you have food in your hand. That's why it's important to fade that out early.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gaia_bear said:


> The current class we are in is completely praise/toy reward based so I've been trying to keep the training with treats at home very minimal, she loves playing tug so it's working out pretty good for us all except for the down.


I would use whatever works for your dog. If she's highly motivated to work for praise, terrific, but most dogs need more than that. Toys are great, but it can be difficult to get in as many repetitions with a toy compared to food.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I would use whatever works for your dog. If she's highly motivated to work for praise, terrific, but most dogs need more than that. Toys are great, but it can be difficult to get in as many repetitions with a toy compared to food.


Not to take away from what you are saying, I do agree with it. But I *love *the idea of a praise-only class. From my experience, too many trainers drill in your mind that food should be used to shape behaviors, and it does becomes the focus of a class, if you run out of food in a class then good luck, not to mention a better treat in someone else's hand is a big distraction. I can't count how many times it's happened to me, though I am working through sparse treating in that setting.

The Monks of New Skete have a wonderful approach for training, and I base a lot of what I do from their lectures and literature. You need to be truly sincere in praise, be extremely positive, really keep training short, max of twice a day, and always always end on the best effort. It honestly does build a better relationship and better behavior, as it requires much more effort on both sides of the party to keep interested and focused, and certainly does carry through to every other situation. It does help that they are monks and spend 100% of their time with their dogs. But the truth is, many of us do not have time for that bond, and we must use other motivators to train. Because of this, I don't think it is the dog that need more than praise, it is the handler that needs more than that to train. 

ETA: I began my training praise only, to shape sit and down was very tough. I ended up having to physically shape the behavior once he learned what it actually meant and would protest it. I don't know if that is recommended, it now seems foolish of me to do it, but that's what Monks had suggested and those were the resources that I had. Of course, they are masters, and I am not even a novice, so taking that advice at face value was probably a mistake.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

jae said:


> Not to take away from what you are saying, I do agree with it. But I *love *the idea of a praise-only class. From my experience, too many trainers drill in your mind that food should be used to shape behaviors, and it does becomes the focus of a class, if you run out of food in a class then good luck, not to mention a better treat in someone else's hand is a big distraction. I can't count how many times it's happened to me, though I am working through sparse treating in that setting.
> 
> The Monks of New Skete have a wonderful approach for training, and I base a lot of what I do from their lectures and literature. You need to be truly sincere in praise, be extremely positive, really keep training short, max of twice a day, and always always end on the best effort. It honestly does build a better relationship and better behavior, as it requires much more effort on both sides of the party to keep interested and focused, and certainly does carry through to every other situation. It does help that they are monks and spend 100% of their time with their dogs. But the truth is, many of us do not have time for that bond, and we must use other motivators to train. Because of this, I don't think it is the dog that need more than praise, it is the handler that needs more than that to train.
> 
> ETA: I began my training praise only, to shape sit and down was very tough. I ended up having to physically shape the behavior once he learned what it actually meant and would protest it. I don't know if that is recommended, it now seems foolish of me to do it, but that's what Monks had suggested and those were the resources that I had. Of course, they are masters, and I am not even a novice, so taking that advice at face value was probably a mistake.


It has been A LOT of work on my part. I've had to keep all my frustrations to a bare minimum but I can see it paying off a lot faster than my previous class, most of the results are most likely coming from her age (6-7mos opposed to 4-5mos) but I feel as if she's working for me rather than whatever I'm hiding in my pockets. She's more eager to please me and much more focused. 

I do have to agree that shaping a down has been near impossible so it's time to dig the treat bag out and start at square one again. Would it be feasible to start with the treat and phase into a toy reward after a couple training sessions?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I've always started with 'sit' and then shaped the 'down' from there. At least that way they aren't standing when I'm trying to teach this. I may teach Grim 'down' on the kitchen floor because it's not carpet, and he likes to 'slide' into a down out there. I haven't given too much time to this one, yet, but I've also found that he's too interested in biting at my hands to realize that I'm trying to tell him something. I think starting with 'sit' will help with this, too. 

I doubt you're seeing submission. (Unless you have seen submission in this pup so far) It's likely that she's remembering the nail trim or even possibly asking for tummy rubs. If you're not seeing the response you want... and she's fighting you even with a treat, go with a higher value treat. Something with a heavy smell to follow that hand down.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

I want to add. When I did start using food in training, it really changed the entire dynamic of training. He certainly did start looking for food, anticipating it, and began protesting when I started to phase it out slightly. On the other hand, his learning curve absolutely exploded and I couldn't believe the speed at what I was training him to do. So yes, a motivator is just that, a motivator, but I have no doubt in my mind that he would have learned in any case. It's also a great distraction from other more interesting distractions, and just makes your pup that much more focused on what you have to say. 

I stand by what I said, that one could do without it, but really, you will need to have an ungodly amount of patience and all your time devoted to building that bond, not just your spare non-working hours. I simply do not have the time in my life to train him without a motivator, and it took me a little too long to realize that. 

Just my 2cents.

If you truly want to use no treats in training the down, get her to do it before you get her meal. That's really when I did a lot of my training, right before I would feed him, straight to the crate when I finished, then immediately into a meal. Do not waste any time if you do this, it all has to be a quick motion in essence.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Jag said:


> I doubt you're seeing submission. (Unless you have seen submission in this pup so far) It's likely that she's remembering the nail trim or even possibly asking for tummy rubs. If you're not seeing the response you want... and she's fighting you even with a treat, go with a higher value treat. Something with a heavy smell to follow that hand down.


I've never seen submission from her in any type of situation. 

She's a weirdo when it comes to treats, sometimes she loves them others she could care less. I've tried almost everything, she turns her nose up at hot dogs, cheese, chicken next to try is cut up raw steak or liver..if this doesn't work she's a lost cause when it comes to treats. I have the dog that when people ask to give her a treat, she takes it, tastes it then spits it out...need to work on those manners


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I trained Creasy with Bart's Contact Method. He has the fastest sit, down and stand as compared to any other method I used with previous dogs. You basically never lure, the food remains in a stationary position and you develop a contact point on dog's bodywhere you touch with your hand to signal a sit, down or stand. Very very clear to the dog, there is no verbal or body motion cue. Once dog consistently performs the exercise the command is added and physical contact removed.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

We've been working quite diligently on this the past couple of days and I'm starting to see results, not quite ready to add the cue yet but it's coming. 

Thanks for all the advice.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I wanted to share this with you. I got Grim to get 'down' in one day. It's not sharp or fast, but it will get there. How I did it? I caught him in the act of laying down. I marked it. I gave it a name. Praise, praise, praise and treats. For doing nothing other than what he was already doing. Every time he laid down, I caught him. "Down... yes!" Treat. I have never tried to train this way, but it's worked so far for both sit and down. His sit is fast. Try it out. See what you think. Let me know if you get the same result.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Jag said:


> I wanted to share this with you. I got Grim to get 'down' in one day. It's not sharp or fast, but it will get there. How I did it? I caught him in the act of laying down. I marked it. I gave it a name. Praise, praise, praise and treats. For doing nothing other than what he was already doing. Every time he laid down, I caught him. "Down... yes!" Treat. I have never tried to train this way, but it's worked so far for both sit and down. His sit is fast. Try it out. See what you think. Let me know if you get the same result.


I taught my dog to sit this way, also, speak. If you don't have a food motivated dog - mine also spits out treats - try a high-energy game of tug, or whatever game your puppy likes best.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jag said:


> I wanted to share this with you. I got Grim to get 'down' in one day. It's not sharp or fast, but it will get there. How I did it? I caught him in the act of laying down. I marked it. I gave it a name. Praise, praise, praise and treats. For doing nothing other than what he was already doing. Every time he laid down, I caught him. "Down... yes!" Treat. I have never tried to train this way, but it's worked so far for both sit and down. His sit is fast. Try it out. See what you think. Let me know if you get the same result.


That's called "capturing" behaviors, and it works very well! I do a lot of capturing with a new puppy - I just mark and reward behaviors that I like and want to encourage more of - laying down, coming towards me, offering eye contact, etc. I don't worry about naming anything at first, that can be done later. The more you reward, the more the puppy will offer up the behaviors, and then you can add the command.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you! Didn't know it had a name, lol! It really works well with my guy! So at first you don't use any name... you just mark and reward? I have been marking and rewarding eye contact, and I'm getting it a LOT lately. I guess maybe I should try to drop the 'name'. When do you add it, though?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here you go: Get Started With Clicker Training

How quickly I add the cue depends on the dog and how fast they're picking up that a certain behavior is being rewarded. With "down" I'll wait for the puppy to lay down, mark and then toss the treat just far enough away that they have to get up to get it, then I wait for them to lay down again. Once they start making the association between the behavior and the reward, they're going to grab that treat and start throwing themselves right back into a down. At that point I can reasonably expect that I'll be able to predict that it's going to happen soon, so I say the cue right before they do it. You can also say the word AS they're doing it.

If you've already named it and that seems to be working, I'd just continue doing what you're doing. Capturing is great for default behaviors like eye contact. Not only do I want my dogs to look at me on cue, I also want them to get in the habit of looking to me for direction even when I haven't said "watch". Requiring eye contact for everything you can think of will help generalize it to different situations. So when I just stand there and don't say or do anything my dogs automatically look at me. I don't need to mark or reward with food anymore, they get real life rewards, access to things they value, like meals, play, attention, affection, etc.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I dug out my clicker training homework and started with the capturing method, cut up some steak and went to work. In the past two days I've added the cue and she's now throwing herself into a down in the most ungraceful manner, think of bambi on ice, but she's got it at about a 90% success rate. I've phased the treating down to a random 1 treat for every 3 downs and we celebrate each "set" with a nice game of tug. We'll work on making it pretty. 

I'd like to thank everyone for all the suggestions, tips and advice!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That's great gaia_bear! It seems like a lot of people have trouble teaching down, which mystifies me because it's something their dog probably does dozens of times a day. All you need to do is start reinforcing that, and then put it on cue by naming it. Easy, peasy.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

That's great! It is simple, but if you're not aware... UGH.. all the dogs I trained to sit and down by 'putting' them in a sit or down, or trying to lure them... and all this time I could've trained it so much faster and with so much less work, LOL! Live and learn!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Well, I lure too - I like to have a hand signal as well as a verbal cue for sit, stand, and down, and the lure motion (faded to something more subtle, if necessary) becomes that hand signal very easily. Fortunately, my puppies have never seemed confused by both luring and capturing.


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