# Structure Examples and Explanations



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'm hoping to turn this into a educational thread that will assist in the Critique Forum as well as in observing and evaluating dogs in the real world. Please bear with my many questions; explanations are appreciated in words but *picture examples* are even more desired.









1) What is the difference between a short croup and high tail set or a long croup and a low tail set or a long croup with a high tail set? I hope I am clear there.

2) How does one define a short upper arm or a steep one or a long upper arm? Does a steep upper arm mean the shoulder angle is too obtuse? What about "layback of shoulder," what is ideal, too much, too little? 

3) What would a high wither look like against a good wither and a low wither? 

I understand the definitions but I'm mostly looking for nitty gritty explanations, photographic examples, etc. Thank you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

High withers (the withers should be higher than the back, not level with the back). He also is a good example of a dog that is stretched (long through the loin). He has a good angle of croup, but with his long back it looks short. IMO he also shows an excellent shoulder and pasterns. I picture this dog having a very balanced and ground covering gait.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This dog has a good whithers and an excellent long croup that is well positioned.  He is masculine and also has an excellent shoulder. He looks like he stands splayed a bit in front.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Good withers, nice top-line, Very good angulation front and good in rear, upper-arm could be a bit longer.
The croup is of the appropriate angle, but short, could be just a tad longer (the tail set is a bit high).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Brian, good example. Here we have a dog with a slightly short croup but also with slightly high tail set. If the tail set were lower, would that equate to a slightly longer croup? Do both go hand-in-hand?

Lisa, so the first dog has good withers or a big TOO high? I know withers are supposed to be taller than the back, just trying to picture in my mind what a dog with high withers would look like. I agree that the second dog does have a nicer wither than the first and definitely much better loin length.

This board is extremely helpful!


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

What I got out of reading The Illustrated Standard. 

The degree of slope in the CROUP is what is critical for good movement, 
and the length of CROUP really has little or no effect on gait. 
The tail set will determine the CROUP length, if set at the correct degree. 
The requirement of a long, CROUP and low tail set is more aesthetic than practical. 
It will show a beautiful gait, but will not be quite as powerful in jumping or galloping.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:The tail set will determine the CROUP length, if set at the correct degree.


An lo, a lightbulb flickers on. So a high tail set cannot associate with a long croup, if I understand correctly?


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Diana

Slow down, you missed the most important part *"set at the correct degree"!*
You could have a high tail set with a long croup the angle would be steep.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

I was looking for an Example, but was to late to edit.

The tail set would stick out like a FROG back with a bump out for the tail set.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

High withers flowing smoothly into a very good and firm back. Slightly steep croup with a high tail set. Long upper arm and excellent shoulder. In his day this was considered excellent rear angulation. This was a very correct dog with balanced and powerful movement. 










You can tell these two dogs are littermates. Very good withers, excellent topline, again a slightly steep croup that could be longer. His upper arm could be longer and is a bit more upright than Bodo's.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This photo isn't as good as the one on my site, but this is an example of a long, but flat croup. Also a VERY strong head and lower jaw on this male. Excellent front and rear angulation. Another VA dog.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

One of the things that I learned while studying structure over the years is an interesting way to evaluate the front reach of a GSD. You want the front reaching foot to be just above the ground and out to the end of the dog's nose. I will show you some examples.

Most dogs with a "high wither" have an upright or open shoulder caused by the angle of the shoulder being greater than 90 degrees. For example I will use my own dog, Ch. Natty.










Now, forget all of the other things that are wrong with her (soft feet and pasterns, standing on her hock, overly long stifle) and just look at her shoulder. She has a high wither and a nice long upper arm, but her angle good be better.










See that her front foot would touch under her chin instead of under her nose.

Now let's look at another dog. This is Ch. Kizzy.










See how her wither is slightly higher than her back, but it flows smoothly into it. She has a nice long upper arm, and a good angle in her shoulder.










Notice where her foot would land. Better reach than Natty, right??

I am also of the opinion, for whatever that is worth , that I would rather have a dog with a long upper arm and a less than ideal shoulder angle, than a dog with a short upper arm and a better angle. A dog with a short upper arm seems to be carrying more of his weight on his front end than the other dog would. But, of course, a correct front is best yet!









I was also taught that a correct topline would allow a single drop of water placed between the dog's ears to roll slowly down to the dog's tail. I'll have to try that sometime.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Daphne, can you make the stacked photos larger?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

It's the best I can do tonight.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually Daphne's first dog is a good example of a dog that lacks balance. She has far more angulation in the rear than in the front. You can see when moving that she is fully extended in front, but not in the rear. Dogs like this have a tendency to fall onto their forehands while moving. Compare her to the second bitch that is very balanced.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you. That is much better.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Over the years some of the best working dogs I have met usually had less than ideal croups per the experts/standard. Could somebody post a picture of a moving GS actually herding sheep on a real sheep farm. Not interested in herding in a trial, but more in looking at the dimensions of a GS with a real herd of sheep. I would like to see these same things in a true working dog...Thanks


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## Bluewolf (Apr 20, 2006)

Clifton, I did a search because this is something I've been interested in finding too. The best I could locate were pictures and videos of classes and trials, no actual examples of a dog employed as a sheep herder: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ge...F-8&sa=N&tab=iv

But if I'm not mistaken, Tracy herds and may have better sources.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'm digesting all of this information. I thank all of you and look forward to more postings. Daphne, great examples.







I see how the structure affects the movement. Lisa, the B's Lierberg are a great example. The high withers makes the dog look much wider from top to chest. 

Here are GSDs doing tending. Videos could be better.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...earch&plindex=0
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...earch&plindex=0


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## Bluewolf (Apr 20, 2006)

Thanks Diana








What lines do you think the dog is from?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Ah nuts I thought I posted two different links........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSACdLFjSII&feature=related
THERE we go, I hope.

They both look like German showlines but I do like how the second one moves better than the first. The first dog doesn't appear to have adequate reach in the front but then again the videos are kinda.... ucky.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This site has a lot of pictures of dogs actually doing large flock boundery work. I didn't look to see if there were any pictures of one of these dogs stacked so we can compare. 
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/

A couple of pictures on this page:
http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-kennel.htm and more on his site.

Interesting note; I have a friend that has imported quite a number of Kirschental HGH females and she commented that they all have "short" croups when compared to "the standard".


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

On this website there are some pictures of GSD's used for herding. Shelly uses her dogs to move sheep, pen sheep and compete.

http://www.tehillahgermanshepherds.com/aiko.html

I like this page because it also demonstrates the courage needed when working sheep.
http://www.tehillahgermanshepherds.com/cheyenne.html

I didn't want to post just the pictures without Shelly's permission.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm confuzzled! Kirschental is in my hometown. (In case anyone comes to visit.. you have a place to stay







) The dogs Mr Füller has are usually the beefy, gorgeous, (and quite workable) West German showline type. I don't see any short croups, but then again.. maybe I don't truly know what constitutes a short croup? ... what this thread is all about.. I need to be educated I guess.







Here's his stud males, Panjo and Fosko are masculine and heavy-boned. Are these short croups or normal?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/478612.html
Fosko.

I'm going to take a stab and say that the croup looks short and steep. If not, edumacate me!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I had to hunt around to find a working herding dog standing that wasn't from Kirschental.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Wow, that is a very nice dog. Any info on this beauty?

A little different direction than my original question, but since Kirschental dogs obviously are able to work, wouldn't they make for good lines to cross to working lines if one wanted to do such an outcross? I don't know much about Kirschental but I keep hearing about that kennel and herding.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: Fosko.
> 
> I'm going to take a stab and say that the croup looks short and steep. If not, edumacate me!


I don't think that the croup is short, but it does appear to be steep.

This discussion has lead me to another question: Is it possible that the short upper arms and steep croups of many of the German Show Line dogs causes the roached back?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Not sure if this is what you are looking for or not:










She isnt a "working" dog per se but if I had the land to have the flock she would be out there daily helping me.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Daphne, that is something I have been thinking about also.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/450753.html
Don't know about the upper arm but that is a heck of a steep croup.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote: Is it possible that the short upper arms and steep croups of many of the German Show Line dogs causes the roached back?


The short upper arms restrict reach so many of these dogs lift in front. There are dogs with steep croups that are not shaped like the German show lines. They are not truly roached with the back rising higher than the withers except when pulling into the leash. Many do have a definite curve to their spine and most that I see, despite what their Kör might say, are mutton (horse term for flat) withered. 

This dog has some withers, but it is still pretty flat, IMO. The back goes almost straight out from the withers and then curves into the croup. He has a short and rather steep upper arm in this photo (I like his shoulder better in some other photos I have seen), but he probably has better reach than dogs who have a short, but more correct upper arm. He should be able to open up his shoulder more. 










I have read that this dog did have a tendency to show a roach over the loin in movement and he produced that problem. They do a pretty good job of hiding it in his photos, but he is where the change in toplines probably started. He is a good example of a dog with, IMO, bad feet. He does have a very very good shoulder.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: The short upper arms restrict reach so many of these dogs lift in front. There are dogs with steep croups that are not shaped like the German show lines.


But the question is: Do the two faults work together to cause the roached topline. There are lots of American lines with steep croups, but they are not roached in the back because of long upper arms and, usually, an open shoulder (angle of larger than 90 degrees).




> Quote: This dog has some withers, but it is still pretty flat, IMO. The back goes almost straight out from the withers and then curves into the croup. He has a short and rather steep upper arm in this photo (I like his shoulder better in some other photos I have seen), but he probably has better reach than dogs who have a short, but more correct upper arm. He should be able to open up his shoulder more.


He has some withers because his shoulder is more open. I agree that he should reach better in the front which is why I would take an open shoulder over a short upper arm, IMHO.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I think Layla has an extremely steep and short croup (fixed the pic so you could see better against the black dishwasher) 










I think Bix has a high tailset and high wither












am I right?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Yes, and no. Layla does seem to have a very steep croup, but I am not sure if it is short. Bix does have a high tail set, but I think he is kind of flat at the withers. The withers are at the highest point of the shoulder, where the shoulder blade meets the spine. In your photo of Bix, his withers appear to be at the point where the yellow rope goes across his back.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

ah, okay, thanks, I think I was looking a little further up from where your talking about, and now that I look closer, it appears that his collar is actually making the hair behind it stick up and appear like it is higher than it really is, but.. I guess I was looking at the wrong spot anyways


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Brix does have a very good upper arm length.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

How about everyone's favorite color dog to crit?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'll venture a guess that his wither is high, maybe a teeny bit flat? How is his forward reach? It might be just me but his upper arm looks like it could be a bit longer, but the shoulder angle may do well to compensate for that.

So have I learned anything yet?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Dontcha just love those black dogs!?! They look like big bears.

As to his structure, his upper arm could be just the tiniest bit longer, and maybe his croup just the tiniest bit less steep. But what a dog! With just a smidge more length of stifle in the rear (just a tiny bit) I could finish his championship.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Can somebody show me a sickle hocked dog?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This thread is really helping me. I've learned what all these body parts are, but now it's easier to see what is ideal and what is not with these pictures.

Can someone explain my dog in terms of withers, croup, shoulder, etc? Based on what I've seen in this thread, I would say the withers are "flat", but not sure about the other two. I'm especially interested in the front arm/shoulder. That's probably the hardest concept for me to grasp.









Here is the database picture, assuming it is a better stack


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, her whiters are flat and she has a dip behind her withers. Her croup is short, but well positioned. Her upper arm is short and fairly steep. She has sufficient angulation front and rear.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thank you, Lisa. What are the implications of having the short, steep arm? Does that limit the dog's reach in front? Also, what causes her little bump after the withers? Does that indicate a problem with structure, or is it simply not desired b/c the topline isn't smooth looking? And lastly, in the top pic her head is a bit lower b/c her natural stance is more hunched than in the bottom pic where her head is way up. Is one position better/more desirable than the other?


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Balance is the most important aspect of structure and gait when a GSD is doing actual tending work, not ultimate reach. Reach is an artificial construct from an artificial venue-the show ring.
When a GSD is doing actual tending work, it needs to do 2 things well in terms of movement. Do it over and over and over effortlessly. Be able to change directions quickly when necessary. It's how the front and back fit together in perfect harmony not how the 2 of them are separately. Of course all of this is useless if the dog doesn't have excellent feet to begin with.
Tending dogs have super thick pads and very strong pasterns and ligaments.
The artificial reaching required in the show ring promotes weak pasterns and ligaments. Also, the artificial trot in the showring does not test structural stamina and quickness in directional change.
Most working line structures have the quickness purely due to muscularity even when unbalanced. Most showline structures are balanced in a straight line but due to less muscle tone do not have the stamina.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

It's also best to see a GSD trot offlead and that's why they do it in the SV ring. The trotting onlead in the AKC ring distorts the dog's true balance and you w/d never see a tending dog while working trotting onlead. When a GSD is tending its almost on its toes ready to change directions quickly, or stop and start on a dime, not simply mindlessly trotting in a straight line that's why balance is key. Look at the videos posted to see the dogs' behavior.
(Same reason why BMWs have 50/50 weight distribution, it's for balanced handling. The dog should be planting its weight almost equally on all 4 legs which contributes to greater stamina.)


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

Eh, some people get a kick out of this photo. The only thing unnatural would be his head in that upright position. If he were off lead he would have had it forward. As it is Tobe likes to grab the lead and hold it in his mouth when gaiting with his Mom... lol This dog moves effortlessly though...excellent follow through and front reach, great under drive and power. This is not my best mover though.....that would be Aimee and I really need to get new pictures of her. Maybe if the sun comes out and I can get Beth to help me. 

Cherri


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

What about feet? What do loose feet have to do with anything. Most boxers have flat feet and bad heads. Ava is good on both points but over the size standards. Quincy (the shep) is going to have bad feet (my guess) and too much rear angulation. (I think).

Just wondering what importance the feet make.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: Just wondering what importance the feet make.


The feet are the foundation upon which the dog is built. Good feet provide the stability for the quick changes in direction. But just as important, bad feet (long toes,soft pasterns, etc.) can decrease the stamina of an otherwise good dog by making the turns more difficult. Long toes mean the dog must pick his feet up higher than one with correct feet, and the lack of firmness means the dog has to do more lifting of his feet rather than relying on the momentum to carry him. Like the difference between running on soft ground or a hard surface.










BTW, this is a photo of one of those show dogs off lead.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The feet and pasterns are the dog's shock absorbers when doing just about anything. Flat feet are inefficient shock absorbers compared to tight feet. Longer toes also causes the dog to have to pick his feet up higher to prevent tripping. Pasterns that are too straight are also poor shock absorbers, and can cause a dog to trip or even become injurred by breaking over. Pasterns that are too angled provide good shock absorbtion, but can break down over time as the angle at which the dog's weight comes down on the pastern causes excess stress.... fulcrum effect.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ocean,
You are soooo! on point with your analysis. Balance is the operative word not angulation nor reach. One of the best moving dogs in the 70's was Marko vom Cellerland. Now Marko was a little short in upper arm (by show standards) and very moderate in rear angulation. But boy was he perfectly balanced. He was out of top V stock of that day and HGH lines. He was so balanced that he was not only 72 German Seiger, but against all comers he was also World Seiger. This dog would neither do well in the American or German show ring of today, but he lives on in working lines that have excellent conformation(Maineiche lines), and of course fabulous temperament. The balance of Marko (temperament,structure, and movement) has perservered over the past 35 years without a drop in quality. That to me exemplifies a true GS in terms of structure/movement.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

thanks. Now I see the answer it is kind of obvious. We always say a horse is only as good as his feet.

Can a dog have big feet like humans or does big feet in a pup mean he is going to be a big dog.

I am only 5' 4'' but have 9 1/2 feet.
Quincy seems to be big footed but maybe just long toes? I hope he works into it all.

VERY informative thread.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

and if, and I do mean IF, wolves are the yardstick for function only-- wow.. cow-hocks, east-west, semi-splay footed critters are so many.

Big feet on a puppy mean only large bone... not tall/height. Example: A Bassett hound pup has enormous feet, and grows to be a short dog (with heavy bone). A Greyhound pup has tiny, petite paws-- and often grows to be a tall dog (with slender bone).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

A wolf's foot is very versatile, though. They can endurance-trot, maintain a gallop, and remain on the snow's surface. For what they do, their feet work. But individuals vary so those with subpar structure could very well suffer. It could mean the difference between dinner and going hungry because Dinner outpaced the wolf.

Insofar as why feet are so important, think about your own feet. If they hurt, your day is ruined. Bad feet (and bad footwear) can affect your knees and your back. Flat feet cause all sorts of problems and even alter natural gait. People spend hundreds of dollars on special footwear to correct genetically poor feet. 

The dog does not have corrective footwear. It cannot go to the podiatrist for a special shoe insert to help maintain a proper arch. What they are born with determine how well they run, how much energy they expend, even their working life. Functional feet are usually the difference between life and death, especially in animals like horses. This is another big reason why dogs are so protective of their feet. Other breeds have different requirements for their paws. The GSD is a distance/endurance trotter and so must have the correct structure to not only maintain the trot for very long periods of time but also to turn on a dime and dodge angry rams if need be. If their paws are too loose, they may expend unnecessary energy in the athletics or even start to have pain in other parts of the body which means those body parts are feeling some injury. 

Ocean, Chris, and the others had excellent reasons why the leg assemblies have to be just so. And yes, balance is important! It does no good to have an absolutely perfect front and a sloppy rear. A balanced dog of most breeds will move very well, have a flying trot, and appear well put together. This excludes breeds like the English bulldog which move correctly so long as everything flops and mooshes all over the place.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The main reason for the longer toes and more splayed foot in a wolf being to provide more traction on snow and ice, and most importantly to distribute the wolf's weight over a larger surface to help keep him on top of the snow, without sinking in. Much easier to travel long distances at speed over snow, with less physical effort, when wearing "snowshoes".

I'd also suspect... and actually wonder if it's been researched... structure may play a part in each wolf's job in the pack. As a hunting unit, individuals have specific jobs... the chasers, the take downers, the ambushers, the flushers... I wonder if in addition to personality traits, differences in structure plays a part in who gets what job?


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Quote: I'd also suspect... and actually wonder if it's been researched... structure may play a part in each wolf's job in the pack. As a hunting unit, individuals have specific jobs... the chasers, the take downers, the ambushers, the flushers... I wonder if in addition to personality traits, differences in structure plays a part in who gets what job?


I would think that you would have to a have a large pack, for that to come into play.
But that is a very interesting idea, and you would think there would be some truth in that.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Well I guess if we ever move to the snow country Quin will have built in snow shoes.

I watched yesterday and his toes are not too long as the toes are splayed.

On the back end:
Do the hocks snap up or twist? hard to explain. Quncy kind of twists, rotates out.

A horse comes straight up and under themselves. We actually have a school horse that move similarlly to Quincy with no medical issues but our schooling horses do not work strenuously. 

I have a feeling Quin will not either. Maybe my next dog will be my working boy.


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