# Joy needs remedial agility classes.



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

:blush:

It was class three. 

We started out not wanting to go up the dog walk. Not even with food. I lifted her up so she could see how to get down. It got worse. She would not move. 

She then sat down. On the dog walk. She would have been perfectly happy to spend the whole class up there. She would not come down on her own. I thought lifting her off would admit defeat. And she is there looking at me, saying "Now what are YOU going to do?"

:help:

The instructor rescued me with meat she first let the dog eat it then coaxed her forward step by step. :crazy:

She then told me to do some stuff that she IS comfortable with. 

We did the A-frame, the weave, the tunnel several times. 

Then we learned the pause table, no problems with that.
Then we learned the tire, no problems with that :wild:

Then we tried the chute again. 

Uhm, is this just a shepherd thing??? Finally with someone holding the fabric up, she went through. 

Going from bad to worse, we lined up for the teeter. They had one half up on a table and we were not supposed to let the other side crash. The instructors were helping, they baited it, and the one kept holding the free end to keep it from crashing. 

She was ok until we removed the table. She did not want to go up this thing. No way. Not even with meat. The instructor told me that was enough and not to push her any more. 

After The final course, jump, dog walk, tire, a frame, weave, tunnel, teeter, chute, the instructor told me not to worry, that she would get it. 

But here's the thing, I am used to being one of the better ones in classes. Here we are rock bottom. Even the little 6 month old border collie pup was doing better than Joy. 

But Joy was very nice about it. When the nasty dog barked and growled at her, she was only mildly interested, and sat and downed when I asked her to. She seems to like the other dogs. 

Q: What does your dog like about agility? A: treats

In all honesty, Jenna was my agility girl, she was going over fences and up on tables at eight weeks old. Joy gets to the back of my SUV, puts her front legs up, and says, "Get my butt, ok." 

This may be building her confidence, but it is humbling me.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am laughing......sorry

about a year and a half ago........i was feeling exactly like you when i started my young male in agility...........it is HUMBLING................lol all the Labs, Shelties, BC's most all the dogs were doing better than us....its a bit embarrassing especially since gsd's are supposed to be fearless, smart animals..............i can't tell you how frustrated i was many times, and really almost bailed out of it.............but, being a trooper, and with support of the trainer and my determination we kept going.....i think we expect to much out of our dogs, you have to look at it from their prospective..........the two hardest pieces of equipment are the walk and the teeter........those take a long while, and you do not force it on them......even if they get up on them, even one or two paws., paraise, praise, praise................for some dogs the praise is all it takes to give them confidence to continue, food doesn't hurt, and certainly if the dog is toy motivated...........whatever works.......

anyway, my young male was only getting maybe half way up the teeter and jumping off...............ugh......this happened for a long time.............then one day after we were done class we were all standing around talking the dogs were free..........i looked over and my young male on his own decided he was going on the teeter. everyone stopped talking, mouths hung open, and this dog did the teeter by his own choice with no problem at all, needless to say he had a standing ovation!!!!!!!!

by the end of the first year, he was running the course and loving it..........so from experience.............alot of patience and time.....and to make you feel better, most gsd's i have seen starting in Agility take a long while to get some of these things..most people end up throwing the towel in and give up because it takes time...........

you;ll get it................sounds like you have a good instrutor.........and we all forget to praise the heck out of some of the small accomplishments instead we see the negatives.........and it sounds like your dog is doing most of the rest of the equipment, so, if i were you i would focus on that..........

you'll get there............


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

aww been there done that! LOL.

My first agility dog taught ME more than I ever taught her, she was a complete natural, she ranked #4 in the US akc rankings back in 99 and 2000...I was not a weekend warrior trialer with her, but must say she NQ'd maybe twice in all the time I trialed her. I have so many blue ribbons for her, and got HIT GSD with her, Then, what in heck was I thinking? I got my aussie,,,sheesh talk about knocking one off that pedestal LOL...

Jynx did great at agility, when it suited her) We got to Open, and she decided agility really wasn't for her, but all the food at trials sure was! I don't know how many times that dog left the ring and ran straight to the food vendors! She was comic relief, I knew it was 'bad' when I had people that I didn't know come up to me and say "oh that's Jynx she is so funny"...WTH ????? LOL 

So, I must admit defeat with that crazy aussie, she likes herding more than anything, and hanging out at trials to food scarf ! 

Masi, well we shall see. She sure has the speed and the leg to do agility, I'm not sure she's 'that' interested in it, and if she is, I'm not sure I can keep up..

Hang in there,)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Class 3 and you are already doing 



> After The final course, jump, dog walk, tire, a frame, weave, tunnel, teeter, chute,


:wild:

I'm way more amazed that any of the dogs did that than that your dog had problems! Seems like you are going at a fairly fast rate in your class.

You using the clicker? Huge help to separate the behavior you want (movement?) so earn the click and THEN get the treat.... from more basic luring and baiting that otherwise goes on with much less thought from the dog.

You able to maybe work on the teeter game with your pup? 

Where you ONLY teach them to move and bam the bottom of the teeter WAY before the do the entire thing? So they learn they are in control of the movement. And THEY are in control of the sound. And BOTH give tons and tons of click/treat.

We started with our puppies at like 10 weeks old by us holding the ‘up’ side of the teeter about ¼ inch above the ground and click/treating ANY interaction initially (moving toward it? Looking at it? Touching it?) but want the feet on it. You will click anything initially but when they start to put their foot/feet on it, you let their weight take it down to the ground (and remember like with all clicker training we need to SHUT UP and let the dogs think and hear the click) we need to click when the teeter hits the ground. (treat on the teeter! Not from out hand).

Since the teeter is only ¼ inch off the ground, it’s not much of a bang initially, and when they are coming eagerly at you/teeter at ¼ “ then make it ½” and so on as they can handle it. 

Always treat ON the teeter.

Always click the bang (I tend to click when they get up with their feet cause I’m so delighted, but it’s the BANG we want to reward fairly soon as we progress. Even if it’s a muted ‘bang’ from ¼ “ off the ground!

Here’s a Golden puppy doing this about 4 weeks or so into the weekly classes.





 
This has my GSD pup at the same age, teeter work at 2:35





 this is just me at about minute 5 the instructor Kim steps in and you can see/hear her comments and how she works with my pup.

:wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thanks all, I guess titling at the Christmas Classic is probably out of the question -- just kidding of course. 

Great U-tubes. I like the teeter work, and how you were doing the dog walk. Ours is higher, or seems to be, and I think it is just the height on that that is getting to her. 

Well, Friday will be another day, but I am already considering repeating basic.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The good dogwalks are adjustable. And we start with them LOW, actually teaching them to come off is no big deal. Just the treats when ON the dog walk. And no treats from our hand, we place them on the equipment.

Can't remember if the 5 month video has Glory doing the dogwalk then if you go to her at 6 months it was raised and she decided it was scary and wobbly along the cross piece.... so she kept coming off. But no big deal and a month later she's tearing across like a champ!

Don't progress too fast, really watch your dog. I know mine learn fast... then seem to regress..... then learn slowly..... then may either regress or PROgress the next week. 

What I've really learned is that as long as the class is full of fun, treats and play. No matter if we complete an obstacle/course/equipment properly or not in the session......IF class was fun, the next week she'll try again and it will go better.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

each dog has a different learning level.........in learning motor skills the average dog takes at least 5-6 trys for things to click........some quicker, some slower.......

even if your dog does sucessfully do an obsticle one week, the next week could be like starting over in the beginning stages...............

but as said..........keeping things fun helps eliminate some of the frustration.......


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

This is what I don't like about a lot of Intro agility classes - they just progress too fast. There seems to be this rush to get the dogs doing "courses" before the dogs are solid on the foundation work and obstacles. 

I would rather teach everything little by little, making sure the dog is confident with each step before progressing. I agree about teaching the dogwalk very low first and teaching the dog that it is ok to jump on and off of it at first. I don't start with the actual teeter until the dog is confident with the dogwalk and aspects of the teeter (the bang game that was shown, controlling a wobble board, etc). IME almost always, dogs who aren't confident on the dogwalk will develop dogwalk fears if they are pushed too quickly on the teeter.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Wait--I'm confused. Is this your 3rd intro class or is this more of an intermediate class? I couldn't tell because you said 3rd class, but then something about repeating basic. 

If it's really your 3rd overall class, I think it's moving too fast! Wow. We just finished our 5th overall class and we just got off of the big piece of plywood over a 2 x 4 and onto the teeter (which is LOW!). And we haven't even done the chute with the fabric all the way down...yet alone a course! We haven't combined any 2 obstacles at all (at least aren't supposed to. What am I supposed to do if after the A frame my dog decides to jump ONTO the tunnel and walk across it?! )

You just might be pushing too fast. It's not a Shepherd thing, I don't think. Maybe ask to go a bit slower in classes and start back at more basic stuff. I'm actually surprised not more people are having problems. Seems like you guys are going at warp speed.


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## Trina (Sep 11, 2009)

selzer said:


> Joy gets to the back of my SUV, puts her front legs up, and says, "Get my butt, ok."


:rofl:
I can so picture that!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, it was our third time being exposed to any type of equipment. 

In a few hours, we will be there again. I will try again, but try to keep it light and fun. 

I really cannot practice for this class at home, and we have been on spring break in obedience. (Instructors were on vacation.) _That _ends Saturday when we begin CGC classes. 

First you want me to walk like a spider and jump like a horse, now you want me to let some stranger pet me and leave me with them???? The trials we put our dogs through.

At least she only weighs 52 pounds and I can still pick her little butt up to get her in the car.


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## tkarsjens (Nov 30, 2009)

I think it's important to know when to challenge the dog and when to hold back. I use the 80/20 rule - when they are doing something 80% of the time correctly, then I feel I can up the criteria and challenge them. Below 80%, and they are not ready.

Your dog is struggling with the dogwalk (which a lot of long in body dogs do) and is at 0%. That's normal and you just work through it. But to then ask her to do the teeter (which looks a lot like a dogwalk) AND ask her to do the dogwalk in a sequence is way too much challenge too early in my opinion.

Agility instructors have a tough time because if they work on foundation work or 1-2 obstacles for too long, people get bored and drop out. If they introduce everything, some dogs get very overwhelmed. Someone might have a future MACH dog, but they aren't able to cope with everything thrown at them at once so they think there is something wrong with them.

I teach intro to agility and I try to find a balance between throwing everything out there and doing all foundation work but it is hard. The important thing is to try to tailor the class to what each dog needs. I don't introduce the teeter at all until 8 weeks in. By then, they are used to a lower dogwalk and usually doing it pretty confidently. But almost always several dogs start to struggle with the dogwalk after the teeter. So we do them side by side to try to help the dog understand the difference.

You dog isn't saying she doesn't like agility. In fact, I think it is a more GSD trait to want to think things through and take your time. Some breeds will do anything without thinking. If a GSD wants to think it through and understand it before blindly complying, good for them and you'll get a better performance in the long run.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Two more class sessions to go. The last class session will be a novice course. I did not know we were going to go from zero to ninety in six weeks, but we are having fun for the most part. 

I was late today. We started out by going over a jump crooked, a second jump straight and into a blind tunnel. This is some kind of straight line thing that you might see at the beginning of a course or at the end. Any how, Joy did it just fine. 

After three times we went over and did some weaves without guides and we were not real good at that. They were taller poles and I kept interfearing with the leash. I finally figured out how to guide her and not screw the leash up.

After that we did some back training. She went over a hurdle and got chicken from the instructor. Did that about three times, then did the tire and the hurdle and chicken. Did that again. 

Then it was supposed to be the clear tunnel and then a ninety degree turn into the tire and the hurdle and the chicken. 

Joy went through the clear tunnel and kept on barreling in that direction. She came back to me and before I could send her she rushed to the tunnel to do it again, so I had to catch her and listen to the instructor and then send her. She did it perfectly that time. 

So then I started baiting the dog walk with Liver. Just the end, she put her foot on, treat, she put a foot up treat, and then we stopped. After doing the a frame a few times we went over there again. 

She went _under _the dog walk and laid herself down. Uhm, not sure if this was ok or not. So, I convinced her to just eat a piece of food on it, and walked away. I baited the teeter to, just to get her to go up to it and take food off of it. Next week we may do more. 

The end of the class was jump, jump, jump, clear tunnel weave, dog walk teeter, blind tunnel, a-frame, tire, hurdle. Along side the dog walk was a second set of weave poles. 

We went through the weaves instead of the dog walk and bipassed the teeter. But everything else Joy did just fine. 

Lastly was that Corgi. It is mean. It sounds mean and even sounds like it is snarly, snappy toward its owner. It does the dog walk and teeter fine though. It does not just dislike Joy, it does not like some of the other dogs either. Joy was squashed between a Golden, and a cattle dog I think. I was very pleased with her doggy skills. She is not reacting back at the corgi either. We are so close in quarters that she does sniff the other dogs and gets sniffed. In obedience, we try to keep sniffing to a minimum, so this is a little different.

ETA: I forgot the figure eight thing we did and are supposed to practice where the dog goes around and we change which hand we are directing with. Joy and I both flunked spectacularly on that.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think it sounds like your doing great!

i also think you should go back for another session, your coming along fine..........

i bet if you continue another session and keep doing what your doing on the walk and teeter, she will be doing it........

congrats........you made it through the initiation period..........without crapping out.........LOL


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Being successful in agility really is much more about solid foundation training and than getting dogs over equipment and running courses. The reason the focus often tends to drift towards getting dogs to do obstacles and running courses is because it is what is most rewarding the people involved, both instructors and handlers. When one pictures "doing agility" in their mind, they see themselves running courses with their dog - not teaching contact behaviors, flatwork handling, perch work, one jump exercises, working each obstacle "around the clock", etc. 
I just took my 15 month old pup to an agility seminar this morning. I started her on agility foundation work t 12 weeks or so and am still working on some foundation skills with her in addition to working basic handling skills in sequences. She's not yet run a full agility course, even though she's been training on the obstacles for almost a year. 
The first part of the seminar worked on contact behavior (2on2off) and proofing the contact behavior. None of the dogs did the full obstacles during the seminar, just the downside. I think all but one of the dogs could do the obstacles, it just isn't needed for the exercises we were working on. We worked on handling skills with no obstacles (groundwork) and through jumps with no bars. The last part of the seminar we worked on a couple 8 or so obstacle sequences that focused on sending and front crosses. 
I don't think Joy needs remedial agility classes at all. It is too bad that the class you are in is so focused on getting the dogs on all obstacles right away and running courses. IME that tends to be typical of training club Intro classes though. Over the years, I have seen many people struggle for years with dogs in agility on issues that would have been totally avoided with foundation work or not being so set on wanting to run courses. The foundation stuff though, is largely stuff you *can* work on at home even if you have little to no equipment to practice on. 
Here are some resources for foundation work:

http://silvia.trkman.net/ - Lots of good info, click on Training

http://www.powerpawsagility.com/articles/Takeittotheground.html Flatwork - no obstacles needed!

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/tag/puppy-skills - some posts about foundation skills but the whole blog is usually pretty good

http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/courses/steve/OneJumpDrills.html You can teach LOTS of skills with just one jump 

Also doing a search on agility foundation on Youtube will bring up LOTS of videos showing all different stuff.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Those are all great links posted by AgileGSD, couldn't have done better myself.

It seems to me your class is progressing kind of fast. I've also noticed that is what many newbies (not you.....but maybe others in the class or past classes) THINK they want. But that misses alot of foundation steps that are a huge help down the line (like not having fear/avoidance of the dogwalk?).

There a chance of you finding other classes in your area to try and restart? I know I've got to different instructors/facilities in my search for the best fit for what I need.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I will look at the links. 

It is hard to say if I am getting what I think I want out of this class. we to have little target things to put treats in, and I am kind of watching to see if the feet are hitting the yellow. 

Our instructor says she is not worried about style yet. 

I do not know if we will ever go to a trial for agility. That really wasn't my desire in doing this. 

On the other hand, does she seem more confident?

I really do not know. 

I am not sure if we are getting anything but her owner all sweaty once a week. 

On the other hand, she likes going through tunnels and up the A-frame and through the tire, and some of the other stuff. 

To be perfectly honest, I find myself thinking when they say something about the handling of the dog to get them to think about the next item in the sequence, well, I think, I am not going to be doing any shows, so I do not have to worry about that. 

Years ago I did a beginning agility class with Jenna who is inclined to do the obtacles. The instructor really drove me crazy in obedience classes, and drove most of the people away. She also taught the obstacles, and progressed very fast. She dropped Jenna off one of the full size pieces of equipment, and that wasn't good. One class we messed with targets, but she did none of the handling instruction that this person is doing. 

If I actually want to go into the ring for agility, I think I will do it with Jenna, Whitney, or Milla who are all much more athletic than the others. On the other hand, I will not slow Joy down quite so much as I would slow one of those others down. 

I just haven't decided yet where I want this to take me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> I do not know if we will ever go to a trial for agility. That really wasn't my desire in doing this.


When I first started agility, I also did it just for fun. We don't have to INTEND to trial to go to classes.

But the progression of training and learning in good classes, which add to the focus and attention of our dogs and their confidence. Plus the bonding the gets tighter between the handler dog with ANY good training is just so valuable.

Thing is, it's kind of important not to just pick and choose what may appear to be more important in the training session, from stuff that may seem more confusing and the POINT of the training more murky.....

I've found agility really is a sport that has so many foundation skills that we learn as we go, and build on gradually. So if I just kind of follow along like requested, it all seems to come together for me and the dog (like a 'lightbulb' moment) sometime months down the line.

Glory and I have been in agility classes for almost a year and we JUST started sequencing about a month ago! Cause it started as a 'puppy' class with real puppies we have only been dealing with individual equipment pieces and handler skills on the flat for almost a YEAR!!!! But it's amazing how it's now coming together and how well the dogs are all doing. There is no fear from them on ANY equipment. They are happy and confident on their performance.

The problem now is US! I mean the handlers. Cause the dogs can 'do' all the equipment..........but getting them from one piece to the next in the proper order is our handler challenge!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I can see that the problem is us. It is certainly me. But it is also my dog at this point. 

What I am trying to do is push me and my dog over the equipment, and learning how to handle, and hold the leash, treats, toy, clicker, while trying to go from one side to the other and keep her focus where it ought to be. 

Ok, I haven't tried the clicker, just because I have enough trouble keeping the leash out of trouble, so I either use a toy or a treat to keep her going. The clicker requires a treat AND the clicker. 

Some of the people in class are working with a new dog, but have done this stuff in the past. A couple of the dogs that had been working originally, are now just sitting on the sidelines and watching -- I do not know what that is about, but at least two or three of the dogs that started the class are now sitting and watching with their owners and not participating. 

My first class years ago, I had the right dog and the wrong trainer. 

This class, I do not have the right dog, the trainer is better, but I am feeling like the class is beyond me. 

For two weeks the weaves had guides on them. Does everyone else's dogs get it after two 90 minute sessions where we weaved a few times??? Because Joy really did not. She did the weave great with the guides, but without them, she is not automatically weaving through the posts. Is this abnormal? 

I am not sure if it is the moon, or if the wind is in the East, but I am not feeling that enthusiastic about this right now.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I would talk to the instructor. I'm wondering if somehow you got into a class that isn't as beginner as your level.

Heck, it usually takes weeks/months for our dogs to learn to weave well, and that's with a full set of weavepoles at home. 

Also interesting that your dog is still on leash....in agility the leash usually get's dropped from the picture as soon as you are near the equipment. Though a training tab may still be attached to the collar ALL of us find it difficult to manage a leash with a clicker with a treat bag.... but if there is no leash.

The problem isn't your dog, sounds like the class is going too fast for any new dog I know. And it's not really you either cause if you were going at a more normal pace it would be broken down a lot more, so your 'job' is also clearer and easier.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Joy would be ok without a leash, though she might have to be caught and she might have to be rescued. 

The Corgi is evil and has made no bones about its desire to EAT her and others, so I am perfectly happy with the leash. When we do the course at the end, the trainer did say we could take the leash off at that point. 

When I drop the lead, I can call her and she comes back to me. If I do not call her, she races to whatever she feels ought to be next, and that could be visiting with a dog. She is a puppy, and her obedience skills are not finely tuned yet. 

I will go back and read my correspondances with her trainer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is the e-mail (I removed names):

Hi All, I am starting a new beginner agility class on Friday, April 2, at 8 pm. Now, both purebred and mixed breed dogs can compete in AKC agility trials. More fun for more dogs. On the first night of class, bring your dog, a buckle collar and regular leash………no flexi leads. If you need a training collar, you can use them when the dog is not on the equipment. We use lots of treats, so if your dogs has a food allergy, bring whatever they are allowed to have and let xxxx or me know in advance. The cost is $95 for the 6 classes. You can go on the website and download the release form. Either mail it in or bring it with you the first night of class. Hope to see you there. XXXXX J


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

selzer said:


> This is the e-mail (I removed names):
> 
> Hi All, I am starting a new beginner agility class on Friday, April 2, at 8 pm. Now, both purebred and mixed breed dogs can compete in AKC agility trials. More fun for more dogs. On the first night of class, bring your dog, a buckle collar and regular leash………no flexi leads. If you need a training collar, you can use them when the dog is not on the equipment. We use lots of treats, so if your dogs has a food allergy, bring whatever they are allowed to have and let xxxx or me know in advance. The cost is $95 for the 6 classes. You can go on the website and download the release form. Either mail it in or bring it with you the first night of class. Hope to see you there. XXXXX J


Well that sounds like they wanted to start up a beginner class but it's a bit unstructured and faster than my beginner classes progress. I've found 'agility' isn't JUST about being on the equipment. It's about bonding with your dog so they'd rather stay with you then visit the other dogs, and the 'work' it takes to do that. Along with the joy and enthusiasm for EACH piece of equipment, while learning to do it low and slow initially and then building up difficulty with their speed.

Not sure what you can do at this point. I know I'd first try to find some other class/trainer with a beginner program that has a bit better progression that the entire class would follow. I've had to do that and currently in my 4th different location (and it's over an hour drive) because it's a better fit for me and my dogs right now.

If there really are no places within an acceptable drive, I'd maybe try to meet with the instructor to figure out what's going on and what they recommend. Maybe you can supplement with privates to help with the individual equipment. And maybe she doesn't realize how much of a problem that Corgi is...........frankly most of my instructors wouldn't let that dog in until it was more under control. They have insurance but shame to have to use it on a dog that is clearly a potential problem.


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