# Hello. New with breeding questions.



## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Hello. My gsd has just started her third or fourth heat, and my family is ready for a litter.

How many days after first spotting is optimal for breeding (roughly)?

If the stud is a novice, will he "get it" when she is in full heat?



They played a bit today with some mock mounting, but I don't think she is in full heat. She spotted while I was on vacation, so I don't have an exact date from the house sitter.


Thanks in advance.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Why do you want to breed your dog?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Please stop trying to breed your dog right now. First learn and then if you decide you want to breed then go ahead ( on a different heat cycle)

Are your dog and the stud registered with a reputable kennel and health tested like OFA/Penn hip? 

Do you have any titles to prove the dogs are of good temperament worthy of breeding? Same for conformation?

Do you have the funds to welp a litter? Do you have time to bottle feed a litter if the mother does not want anything to do with the pups or worst case mother does not survive the welp?

Do you have contracts made up for puppy purchasers and time to do checks into potential purchasers?

What is your goal for breeding these two particular dogs?

There is much more than this that goes into breeding. Please take a time out and decide if you really want to breed before you bring more puppies into the world.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Heagler870 said:


> Why do you want to breed your dog?


Her temper is excellent, and I would like to keep one of her sons.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

3jvj said:


> Her temper is excellent, and I would like to keep one of her sons.


What if she only has females?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Welcome to the board and I'm sure EVERYONE WILL BE NICE (right?  )

The practices that are generally supported on the board for breeding, and what we all look for in a breeder are really well explained on the following sites.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


There are so many wonderful breeders with vast amounts of experience that need our support (and if you love your current pup you may want to go back to that breeder for a similiar dog!). And I can't even bear going to our Urgent - German Shepherd Dog Forums and Non-Urgent GSD Rescue & Adoption - German Shepherd Dog Forums to realize that there are currently hundreds of wonderful 100% purebred GSD's out there currently needing homes (and many of the GSD's posted will be killed in the next week or so due to lack of homes) that I know I'll never be a breeder and know I may add to that mix (even if it's not intentional and I try to find good homes for my dogs).

So if you ARE already into breeding and have your dogs titled, all OFA'd for hips and elbows and know the research in all the many genetic physical issues our breed has (what a nightmare that is  ) Since I've been the owner of TWO GSD's born with mega-esophagus (sure you are familiar with this condition in the breed) that thankfully didn't die as puppies, I know about the genetic things that can crop up even with the best breeders that know what they are doing!

German Shepherd Dog Health Problems

Canine Genetic Disorders


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> Please stop trying to breed your dog right now. First learn and then if you decide you want to breed then go ahead ( on a different heat cycle)
> 
> Are your dog and the stud registered with a reputable kennel and health tested like OFA/Penn hip?
> 
> ...


We have a kennel. She loves it. She spends most of her day in it. It's her comfortable place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

3jvj said:


> Hello. My gsd has just started her third or fourth heat, and my family is ready for a litter. I expect you will get many questions on this. But, how exactly is your family ready for a litter? How old is your bitch and did you have her hips and elbows certified free of dysplasia?
> 
> How many days after first spotting is optimal for breeding (roughly)? This is not possible to answer. Bitches are different. I have heard of some needing to be bred prior to any bleeding. Others have been bred as late as day 28. There are some signs you can watch for. You should probably get a book on breeding dogs and learn about heat cycles and progesterone levels, and what you are trying to achieve.
> 
> ...


Please give up on this heat cycle. 

You need to get some books and do some reading. 

You need to get involved in GSDs and get to know some GSD people who can help you with your endeavor, who can evaluate your dogs, and help you make good breeding decisions.

You need to become an expert in all areas concerning dogs, conformation, training, breeding/whelping/raising puppies, nutrition, legislation, the various varieties or lines of GSDs, pedigrees, individual bloodlines. 

Six months is an extremely accelerated program, and you will not be ready for the better puppy buyers in that much time, but with a good mentor, and a lot of commitment you could do a whole lot better than the nine weeks you would have if you bred your dog now.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> What if she only has females?


I will probably keep a female and be just as happy.


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> *Please stop trying to breed your dog right now.* First learn and then if you decide you want to breed then go ahead ( on a different heat cycle)
> 
> Are your dog and the stud registered with a reputable kennel and health tested like OFA/Penn hip?
> 
> ...


Wow, I hope you know this person to be so bold in telling someone else what to do.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Welcome to the board and I'm sure EVERYONE WILL BE NICE (right?  )
> 
> http://www.awsaclub.com/healthgenetics/caninegen.htm



Thank you. Cursory reads of the site primed me for a warm welcome.

I also found that the loyalty base is akin to my own, and that there is plenty of knowledge (and opinion) to go around.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wilbanks17 said:


> Wow, I hope you know this person to be so bold in telling someone else what to do.


LOL.

Thank you.

I've no doubt it was typed with the best intentions in mind, and fresh off the heels of the woman who is breeding a six year old white shepherd. :toasting:

Hard to be offended whilst smiling.



My name is Josh (b.t.w.), and I live in Jackson Hole.

I will update my stats soon enough.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Nick, thanks for derailing the thread to attack me.

Selzer put it much better than me. The OP has too many unknowns right now to breed a litter. So yes, I hope the OP stops trying to breed right now.

Selzer and MRL :thumbup:

To the OP saying "We have a kennel. She loves it. She spends most of her day in it. It's her comfortable place." Really did not have anything to do with what I posted.

I hope you'll take everyone's advice to heart.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

selzer said:


> Please give up on this heat cycle.
> .


Weather would not permit me to have a litter in the dead of winter, or I would have done it last cycle.

I did not get this dog from the pound or the back of a pickup truck, nor will her puppies be found in such places.


Spring/summer puppies will be far easier everybody (including mom).
We had 500+ inches of snow this year. Weather is a factor.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ummmm...if you have the puppies in the house then it is entirely possible to have the litter in the dead of winter. You don't appear to know very much about breeding. Maybe you need to skip TWO heats so you have extra time to learn what you need to know.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> The OP has too many unknowns right now to breed a litter. So yes, I hope the OP stops trying to breed right now.


These are presumptions you've made, but I've let it lay because I'm assuming you've had good call to make them. 

The kennel comment was entirely appropriate given the nature of your rant.:doggieplayball:

Not being a pro in the ovulatory cycles of my dog hardly makes me unworthy of breeding a litter.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ummmm...if you have the puppies in the house then it is entirely possible to have the litter in the dead of winter. You don't appear to know very much about breeding. Maybe you need to skip TWO heats so you have extra time to learn what you need to know.


Hyuck, hyuck.

Possible for you, not for me. Yes, the pups will be indoors. 
Sad that we have to cover the obvious, but; here we are.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

First I'll say, I hope you have a thick skin, because with the info you posted, you aren't going to get many if any who say GOOD LUCK GO FOR IT, here

First, why do you want to breed her? Has she been OFA'd? Has the male been OFA'd, any titles? Other health clearances? How old is she??

Saying you want one of her puppies, is not a reason to breed, saying you want to do it now, because of weather conditions, is not a reason to breed. 

Do you have any background in breeding animals? Have you read some of the links here on what can go wrong with breedings/whelpings??

Just a few things to think about...and no one said you got your dog out of a pickup truck...But it would be interesting if you told us where you got her, or a copy of her pedigree? ..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

3jvj said:


> Weather would not permit me to have a litter in the dead of winter, or I would have done it last cycle.
> 
> I did not get this dog from the pound or the back of a pickup truck, nor will her puppies be found in such places.
> 
> ...


Good, that will give you a full year to prepare. 

Weather IS NOT an acceptable reason to breed a dog if you or the dog is not ready. 

Why are you in a hurry to breed your dog? Don't you want to make the best decisions and produce the best puppies possible, and offer them the best of homes? 

How old is the dog and how old is the bitch? Is the dog one that you own?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It is very sad that we have to cover the obvious but I'll repeat it again since you seemed to skip right over the important part...



> You don't appear to know very much about breeding. Maybe you need to skip TWO heats so you have extra time to learn what you need to know.


Are you prepared to possibly lose your female? Are you prepared to lose the litter? How about the costs that could be incurred for a c-section? Are you prepared to take back any puppy that the new owners can't keep? At any age? 

My personal opinion is that you are going to do whatever you want anyways so responding is really a waste of time. My advice....call your vet and ask them the basic questions for breeding.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> First I'll say, I hope you have a thick skin, because with the info you posted, you aren't going to get many if any who say GOOD LUCK GO FOR IT, here
> 
> Just a few things to think about...and no one said you got your dog out of a pickup truck...But it would be interesting if you told us where you got her, or a copy of her pedigree? ..




Amazingly thick skin.

The dog is full papered, as is the father. Both have been checked over and thoroughly documented for hips, elbows, and pannus. She has also received her "good doggy" citizen card. Unlike my last GSD, she has an iron gut as well. It took me a year to find a diet that suited my last girl, and this dog has had one loose bowel movement in two and a half years. ONE. Never even had an accident in the house.

I have had her on a nutrient diet to prepare her for this. She is ten pounds heavier from puppy food and some crazy meatball diet that I was given by a breeder.

This was not something I just decided to do, or I would have had her fixed a year and a half ago. 



I should have been upfront about my determination (and that I wasn't an idiot trying to make a buck breeding pit dogs), but then I would have missed on finding out who really cared about the breed.:hugs:


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> It is very sad that we have to cover the obvious but I'll repeat it again since you seemed to skip right over the important part...


Yeah; thanks.

As much fun as it is to dwell on the dark- no; I'm not prepared to lose my bitch. If there is a threat, and the vet says there is a problem- I will abort.

Fully prepared for the worst. Planning for the best. Thanks for your concern.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Thats a start, and thanks for posting more info, it may help your determination.

The best advice I can give you, is talk to your breeder about heat cycles and such. I am not, nor ever claimed to be a breeder, tho there are some on here that may contribute information towards your original question. 

I also suggest, you do some reading on breeding/whelping to be more prepared, talk to your vet, look thru this forum , there are some posts on what can go very wrong when in whelp, that may give you info on the sad side when things go very wrong.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

selzer said:


> Good, that will give you a full year to prepare.
> 
> Weather IS NOT an acceptable reason to breed a dog if you or the dog is not ready.
> 
> ...


Frida is almost three. Denying that weather is a factor seems a bit naive.
Maybe you have fairer weather though.

I am not in a hurry. I've been preparing for the last six months, and was falsely under the assumption that I had another month or so to prepare- this heat came early.

The father, on the other hand, is slated to be neutered. I can find another stud, but I've looked for awhile now. His strengths will add to any weakness mine might have, and vice versa. He is six.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

you say thoroughly documented for hips/elbows and pannus, has both the stud and the bitch been certified with OFA? Or has the vet read the xrays and ok'd them, I only ask as many vets don't agree with findings from OFA, and vice versa. 

Could we see a copy of her pedigree and your stud's as well, just for curiosity sake. There are tons of great dogs in shelters and so I figure you must have a reason why you wish to produce some and would love to see the pedigrees. and maybe some pics too please. Do you own the stud? or is the breeder of your female available to assist and answer some of these questions?? Like everyone else I hope you cancel this breeding cause if you don't know everything now, that means you may no know everything when whelping starts and then won't recognize if a problem occurs. That is why I don't breed, the few litters I've been involved with have turned out real bad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

3jvj said:


> Amazingly thick skin.
> 
> The dog is full papered, as is the father. Both have been checked over and thoroughly documented for hips, elbows, and pannus. She has also received her "good doggy" citizen card. Unlike my last GSD, she has an iron gut as well. It took me a year to find a diet that suited my last girl, and this dog has had one loose bowel movement in two and a half years. ONE. Never even had an accident in the house.
> 
> ...


You have a good starting place, but you are not there yet. At least not in what you are saying.

They are "full-papered." Ok, so they are registered and you have breeding rights. Which registry? This is important because some of the registries have very few requirements, and the dogs may not even be purebred dogs. Well, actually, I am sure there are ways to cheat in most registries, but some are more reputable then others, and not being registered by one of them, the dog should not be bred. 

But having correct papers from a reputable club is again only a start. You need to know the lines, and you need to know the blood lines within the lines. You need to know what is behind your dogs, not just your dogs. You need to know what line breeding there is and whether you are line-breeding the dog or bitch or going with a total outcross. You have to have an idea what the dogs in your pedigree have been known to produce. This takes a lot of time, research and study. If you know that one of the dogs in the sires background was known to produce a certain undesired trait, you would want to ensure that your girl is free of that trait. It does not mean that you will not produce it, but it will be less likely. If you see what I am saying. 

They have been looked over and documented for hips, elbows, and pannus -- was this OFA, SV? They had x-rays? And these were sent in? The reason I ask is because my vet, looked at my bitch and said she had good hips, otherwise she would not be able to walk good. Sorry -- wrong answer. Hip Dysplasia may show NO symptoms at all and can ONLY be determined by x-ray. 

The good doggy citizen card -- that is also a great starting place. Whether this is a Canine Good Citizen, or Canine Good Neighbor, this is a certificate, a test that we prepare for that gives us an indication of the dog's temperament and trainablility. It is a good start. If your dog can get a CGC or CGN, why not go ahead and put an obedience title on her. That says more about your dog and more about you. A CGC or CGN can be given by class instructors with only class participants there. It can be given by instructors who are wanting to pass the dogs. A title has to be given by more than one judge at three different trials, where the dog at least has to perform in a crowd and around a bunch of other dogs, dogs he is unfamiliar with. It says more about the dog and the handler. It says something about commitment. There are other ways to show commitment that are equally worthy, the EASIEST is a title. 

You really should not beef up your girl for pregnancy. Sorry. It will be best if she is at her proper weight, less complications. Increasing food should take place weeks into the pregnancy. 

There is a TON of stuff to learn. Please go the extra mile and wait until you are better prepared for this. 

BTW, An emergency C-section doesn't give you time to abort. It happens on the day of whelping or after the date whelping should have occurred. It IS dangerous for your bitch. I have been in there, and watched the operation. If you are not up to doing that, please do not breed your bitch.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Thank you for sharing some details.

If by "good doggy citizen card" you mean the CGC (canine good citizen) then that is a start. Though it is not a good indicator of solid temperament. Many dogs on this board have temperament issues and have passed the CGC.

What lines are the two dogs you are breeding? If you don't mind could you post their pedigrees? 

I'm not sure if you read the links in MRL's post "Things to look for in a responsible breeder" It is what we pass along to anyone searching for their future GSD. Many people searching for a breeder are looking for a "reputable" breeder. I'm not saying you're not but I do have a feeling you aren't quite there yet. Think about the type of buyers you will attract without having all of your ducks in a row yet.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

trudy said:


> you say thoroughly documented for hips/elbows and pannus, has both the stud and the bitch been certified with OFA? Or has the vet read the xrays and ok'd them, I only ask as many vets don't agree with findings from OFA, and vice versa.


The vet took the xray, but the certification was ofa. I would not consider breeding otherwise.
As little as I think of papers vs actual performance, I concede that it is an important part of breeding, and necessary in maintaining the strength of the breed.

Having said that; mine is a long hair. She will not win any shows as a result.
I chose her for the long coat despite the fact that it is a discouraged trait.
Make what you will of that. My first dog was a silver long coat, and they hold a place in my heart.
Here is Fridan and my daughter:
















Those are a bit dated though. She isn't nearly as fluffy now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> BTW, An emergency C-section doesn't give you time to abort. It happens on the day of whelping or after the date whelping should have occurred. It IS dangerous for your bitch. I have been in there, and watched the operation. If you are not up to doing that, please do not breed your bitch.


And Selzer didn't lose her bitch, she lost her litter. Crooked Creek lost her bitch, and has been hand feeding 9 puppies. It's not about dwelling in the dark. It's about knowing and weighing the acceptable risks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

3jvj said:


> Frida is almost three. Denying that weather is a factor seems a bit naive.
> Maybe you have fairer weather though.
> 
> I am not in a hurry. I've been preparing for the last six months, and was falsely under the assumption that I had another month or so to prepare- this heat came early.
> ...


I live in the snow belt in NE Ohio, and rushing three hours through a snow storm to the vet for an emergency c-section makes me understand that yes indeed weather can be a factor. But it is never a good reason to breed or not to breed. Sorry. Puppies are born inside the house, and you have to have the stuff on hand to keep them warm. 

And puppies are raised within the house. 10 to 14 puppies in the house in January and February is not exactly fun, when you could be letting them run and play outside at least part of the time, if they are born in June or July. 

But that does not mean that you breed them NOW or else. 

Your girl is three, and that is still young, next year she will be four and that will be starting to be old for a first litter. 

I understand your predicament, but I still think you do not have enough to go on at this point, by what you have posted. You need to learn about the risks involved, the signs of trouble, the stages of pregnancy and so much more. 

The time to learn about breach births and stuck puppies is not while you are staring at toenails in your girl's nether regions.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

selzer said:


> You have a good starting place, but you are not there yet. At least not in what you are saying.


I read this line, and skipped the rest.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

brown nose? lupus-or just plastic bowls? just noticed in the picture.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

selzer said:


> I understand your predicament, but I still think you do not have enough to go on at this point, by what you have posted.


"By what you've posted" is key here.

I was a nurse, and my wife was a vet tech.
I am not a rube in the matters of birth, I just asked how many days into her heat was optimal for breeding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good for you. 

I can see why you haven't gotten yourself a book on breeding.

Go for it, breed your bitch, post puppy pictures, insult people who do not say what you want to hear. 

I bet there will be scads of people on this site congratulating you for producing live puppies, or weeping with you if you lose your bitch. 

I am done.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> brown nose? lupus-or just plastic bowls? just noticed in the picture.


Optical lighting effect?

Her nose is black, so I'm not sure.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

selzer said:


> Good for you.
> 
> I can see why you haven't gotten yourself a book on breeding.
> 
> ...


For this, I am glad. You would do well to read your own posts before accusing people of being insulting.

Seriously; go back and read your drivel.

You've been insulting from the very onset. You may have the best of the breed, but you show poorly as an owner.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> brown nose? lupus-or just plastic bowls? just noticed in the picture.


Plastic bowls can change the color of the dogs nose? Do you know why? (had never heard that before) 

Also, do standard colored GSD's get snow nose, (that's what it looks like) or is that just common in the whites?


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Just to be sure Selzer, I went back and fully read your posts.

Although insightful, they are tainted with attitude.

You have no background to judge me, and are acting on impulse.


When I said "my dog is fully papered", I was referring to AKC. My paper only goes back as far as such things go, but five generations of mostly flawless lines removed my doubt as to whether she was worthy of breeding.

I don't need your approval to breed my dog, nor did I ask for it.



If I've ostracized myself from the cumulative pack in calling you out on your b.s.; then so be it. You're not much of a greeter at the door.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I don't need your approval to breed my dog, nor did I ask for it.


Maybe not, but since the deed hasn't been done, you're unlikely to find anybody to give you the information you want.

Jackson Hole, Wyoming is where you live? I know a great breeder out that way. She has litters at any time during the year, as she's prepared, knows what's she's doing, and has the means to care for everybody.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

3jvj-

You haven't given us much information. I understand you asked a question and don't feel the need to respond to our questions. You feel you are ready and knowledgeable enough to breed. As MRL said before we support reputable breeders here. We do not know what type of breeder you are. You most likely will not get anyone to answer your question until they are confident you are not irresponsibly bringing puppies into the world, because we love this breed.

You could save a lot of hassel and go buy a book on breeding or you can stick around and learn from reputable breeders.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Maybe not, but since the deed hasn't been done, you're unlikely to find anybody to give you the information you want.
> 
> Jackson Hole, Wyoming is where you live? I know a great breeder out that way. She has litters at any time during the year, as she's prepared, knows what's she's doing, and has the means to care for everybody.


You too are making the assumption that I can't? Is that the format around here. or is that the general rule with breeding?

Honest question.


If you are referring to Jill, then yes; she is great. I went to her for training. She is excellent. If I were looking for a pup, I would go to her first. My dog bears her lines.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> 3jvj-
> 
> You haven't given us much information. I understand you asked a question and don't feel the need to respond to our questions. You feel you are ready and knowledgeable enough to breed. As MRL said before we support reputable breeders here. We do not know what type of breeder you are. You most likely will not get anyone to answer your question until they are confident you are not irresponsibly bringing puppies into the world, because we love this breed.
> 
> You could save a lot of hassel and go buy a book on breeding or you can stick around and learn from reputable breeders.


Indeed, and thanks.

I'd just as soon hang around as the knowledge and passion runs deep here; you can't find that in a book.

I may have not made myself too welcome by not being upfront, but let me assure everyone that I have the space and time to whelp these pups. I have a section of the house already dedicated for the task, and am adding to my preparations daily.

This is my third GSD. The first lived to be 15, and was a truly great dog. The second was a rescue and a heartache. She was dead at ten, and an example of bad breeding and an impulsive desire to have another GSD. This, Frida, is my third. I did not take finding her any less lightly than I am taking breeding her. I looked for a year, and had the discomfort of telling my children "NO" to so many puppies that I was beginning to feel like a bad parent. I was picky, and this dog is a great example and worthy of breeding.

I will not let my small faults (not an "official" breeder) end her line.
If I could clone her I would. Breeding is the best I can do, and I've timed it at just before three for her health, and my sanity. I spent a lot of time tracking down her partner as well. It was not some friend of a friend that hadn't "fixed" his dog yet. 

At no point have I taken the easy road or quick fix (aside from not being more thorough in my introduction here).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

3jvj, welcome to the site. I'm glad your sticking around to share insights with this passionate group of GSD lovers!
I hope you'll learn enough that your experience breeding your bitch will be an asset to the breed, and that all pups will be carefully placed. 
It sounds like you've done most of your homework already.

Will Jill be able to mentor you with the breeding/whelp/placing of this litter? That may make the whole experience better for the future pups thru their (hopefully) long lived lives.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

3jvj

I am going to be confused - not sure why you would join the board having read the board (and knowing the responses to breeding questions) to get answers to the most simple of questions so I do wonder about the rationale for making this your first post if not to simply inflame folks. 

I am also surprised you would let the breeding process start with a house sitter present (instead of yourself) since sometimes a female who is not ready can do some serious damage to a male. Certainly not what you would expect for her "first time" breeding. 

As to the nose - I *did* have a dog with discoid lupus; at the start his nose had that discoloration - autoimmune condition. Conversley if the dog eats out of plastic bowls can cause loss of pigment in the nose. That was not a breeding comment - just a "hmmmmm" comment.

The decision to breed is yours as is the decision to give (or not) helpful advice by others.

-------

you answered some of my questions while I was posting. Thank you. those we certainly first impressions based on the initial run of posts - so you can understand the passion some here DO have for the breed and the struggles they face with all the unwanted dogs in rescue.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> 3jvj, welcome to the site. I'm glad your sticking around to share insights with this passionate group of GSD lovers!
> I hope you'll learn enough that your experience breeding your bitch will be an asset to the breed, and that all pups will be carefully placed.
> It sounds like you've done most of your homework already.
> 
> Will Jill be able to mentor you with the breeding/whelp/placing of this litter? That may make the whole experience better for the future pups thru their (hopefully) long lived lives.


Thank you Jane. Please call me Josh.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I live less than 70 miles from you in Afton. Bred many many litters in the winter. Curious, where did she come from? I know most the breeders around here, I am very active in showing.Travel to Wash,Ore,Utah,Idaho and California to show.
You do realize that selling dogs around here is very very tough. People do not want to travel to where we live in the boonies to pick up dogs when they can get page after page of GSD in Utah and Idaho, all listed on KSL classifieds. 
I bred Shelties and sold dogs to Japan and had waiting lists for my litters, people did drive up here or flew to get them, but I had Champions. Breeding AKC registered GSD without any Championships or performance titles just makes them the same as all the other GSD breeders who sell on KSL.
I am not trying to tell you not to breed your dogs, that is your business, but just from experience I know the difficulties you will have selling them around here. In all the years I bred Shelties and Bernese Mountain Dogs, I NEVER sold one puppy to anyone in the Jackson/Afton area because most don't care about the dogs, if one gets killed you just get another, since there are so many breeders.
Jill doesn't sell her dogs around here either, she knows how people are. Jill and I judge dogs together at some of the local fairs, we have known each other for 10 years or more.
Where did your girl come from? Who owns the sire? Are they local dogs?


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> 3jvj
> 
> I am going to be confused - not sure why you would join the board having read the board (and knowing the responses to breeding questions) to get answers to the most simple of questions so I do wonder about the rationale for making this your first post if not to simply inflame folks.
> 
> ...


So true. Welcoming input or discouraging it is a reflection of myself, and I apologize to selzer if I gave the impression that I was not capable of caring for a litter, and for judging. I am at fault for not giving enough input.

The house sitter was at the house when Frida went into heat; nothing more.
I was visiting family in Arizona.

My "reads" of this sight are limited to today as I've only just found the sight. I want to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible. Time is an issue.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I live less than 70 miles from you in Afton. Bred many many litters in the winter. Curious, where did she come from? I know most the breeders around here, I am very active in showing.Travel to Wash,Ore,Utah,Idaho and California to show.
> You do realize that selling dogs around here is very very tough. People do not want to travel to where we live in the boonies to pick up dogs when they can get page after page of GSD in Utah and Idaho, all listed on KSL classifieds.
> I bred Shelties and sold dogs to Japan and had waiting lists for my litters, people did drive up here or flew to get them, but I had Champions. Breeding AKC registered GSD without any Championships or performance titles just makes them the same as all the other GSD breeders who sell on KSL.
> I am not trying to tell you not to breed your dogs, that is your business, but just from experience I know the difficulties you will have selling them around here. In all the years I bred Shelties and Bernese Mountain Dogs, I NEVER sold one puppy to anyone in the Jackson/Afton area because most don't care about the dogs, if one gets killed you just get another, since there are so many breeders.
> ...


WOW. Good to hear from a local. 
The father will be Bello (John Bickner's). If you are familiar with the local line, you may have heard of him; one of his brothers (Bello's) went to Japan as well.

There is no plan to sell the pups, but if I need to I will contact Jill. John will keep one, I will keep one. The rest have homes elsewhere (North Carolina, Alabama, Michigan, and Arizona). I am lining up more prospective homes than pups, but planning way ahead as Frida came from a litter of nine.

Frida came from a couple in Salt Lake, but both of the parents came from Jill (Izzy and Otis). They are of the Del Cono Sur lines. It's been months since I've read down bello's lines, but his are equally impressive.


Just out of curiosity; when I was looking for frida (years ago), I heard of a breeder in the area that was having problems with heart failure in their litters. You wouldn't happen to know who it was, would you?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

leave the breeding to the pros. don't
breed on impulse.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I know of you are speaking of, but will not say names. Will not get into that kind of stuff whether private or on a list, sorry.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

I should be clear here, that this dog is removed from Jill's lines at this point. I have no intention of causing her any worry with competition or making the inference that she is related to this litter.

Her standards are impeccable, and I am nothing but grateful for the help she has been to me and my wife. Were her standards not so high, I would not have such a beautiful dog.

When my pup is of age, I will again seek her help with training it.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> leave the breeding to the pros. don't
> breed on impulse.


You must have missed all the other comments along those lines.

Thanks. I get it.

I am not breeding on impulse.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Do you know that lines are only a small part of what make a GSD breed worthy? A dog can come from the best lines and be riddled with temperament or health problems, not conform to the breed standard, or be a complete wash out. Your female has never been worked to prove who she is and her lines don't make her a wonderful example of the breed. 

I also wonder about this stud male. Is he titled in ANYTHING? How do you know he has something to offer to the breed other than his lineage? Do you even know what makes two GSDs a god candidate for each other? What are you trying to produce with these two other than a male puppy for yourself?

It's obvious your going to do what you want and could care less about what people here are trying to teach you, but then why ask for help? You obviously are sure you know everything except optimal ovulation times and that knowledge can be gleaned from your breeder, a vet, or other internet site that is not a public forum. It's very rude of you to come on here, drop a breeding bombshell, and imply that only your question should be answered as you are too righteous to hear what your doing is plain selfish and not exactly intelligent. I would get over yourself ever so slightly you have a ton to learn and according to your time frame not much time to learn it.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Zoeys mom said:


> Do you know that lines are only a small part of what make a GSD breed worthy?
> .YES.
> A dog can come from the best lines and be riddled with temperament or health problems, not conform to the breed standard, or be a complete wash out.
> .AGREED.
> ...


This group is thick with assumptions.

What does it take for you people to find breeding acceptable?

My dog does not leave blue ribbons after she squats, nor would I use that as a tool to judge her worthy of breeding. Sorry if you find me harsh as well. You are not very welcoming either.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Don't get confused I was not trying to welcome you after you so rudely attacked some very nice and knowledgeable members on this site within your first handful of posts.

If your female and male are titled why is that information you would not offer on a GSD site? You say assumption but what do you expect? Let me replay yourself for you...Hi I'm Josh and I want to breed my female. Others ask is she OFA'd or titled? You don't respond other than to insult other's questions and finally on the 3rd or 4th page say yes the female is OFA'd. Why the drama? Why not just answer the questions posed to you? Is it the suspense, are you just that pompous, or do you enjoy the attention you are getting here?

So Josh why are these two a good candidate for each other? You are right I can't judge that on the net and yet you have offered ZERO reasons to breed them other than wanting a pup because your female is so sweet and smart. People make assumptions everyday based on the information they have so if our assumptions are bothering you provide more information we're not psychic by any means here.

No one here has JUDGED YOU....we have again judged or weighed really your decision to breed your female based on the pieces you have provided.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Zoeys mom said:


> Don't get confused I was not trying to welcome you after you so rudely attacked some very nice and knowledgeable members on this site within your first handful of posts.
> 
> If your female and male are titled why is that information you would not offer on a GSD site? You say assumption but what do you expect? Let me replay yourself for you...Hi I'm Josh and I want to breed my female. Others ask is she OFA'd or titled? You don't respond other than to insult other's questions and finally on the 3rd or 4th page say yes the female is OFA'd. Why the drama? Why not just answer the questions posed to you? Is it the suspense, are you just that pompous, or do you enjoy the attention you are getting here?
> 
> ...


Fair enough, my apologies. 

Have you read the other posts? Read again when you say "no one judged you". I've been tagged as ignorant and selfish, and in your post even.

They may be great people, but read the posts. 

That aside, what other criteria should one need other than loving their dog, having a good home and ability to raise a litter, and the good fortune of having access to a good sire?

Aside from that, I have all these things, and have passed all the flaming hoops that a discriminating community could ask for.

The fact that I need to present my credentials to justify my breeding points at a crack in the wall here. You yourself have said it's a poor indicator, yet I need it to get the courtesy hallpass? 

Does this make sense?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

To find breeding acceptable, most figure that the dog/bitch needs to be of very good quality. Championships, performance titles, OFA,eyes and a good temperament judged by someone other than yourself. These are just the minimun requirements. Just because a person has an AKC sire and dam does not mean they are breeding worthy. AKC no longer means "elite" dogs as it once did, it means you have a purebred GSD.Have your dog and the sire had temperament tests done by a person capable of testing? Usually at AKC speciality shows, temperament tests consist of standing by when a gun is fired, an umbrella opened in their face and other tests, but to have a dog that passes this test, they have to deal with these tests without stress or aggression. Will you test your dogs before breeding?
I mentioned about KSL and Craigs list. What makes your bitch and the sire any different from the numerous litters listed there? Most there state AKC registered, but that is all. Pretty color, sweet dog, yadda yadda and they start out selling at $600 and go steadly downhill as they end up with puppies not sold. One "breeder" started out at 1200 and ended up almost giving them away. At anytime you can go on ksl and find at leat 10 litters of GSD, people giving away females and males, etc.
You mentioned that you had sold puppies back east, I assume they know the cost of shipping puppies these days? You can't ship from Jackson hole, and pretty much not from Idaho Falls anymore, you will have to travel to SLC to ship puppies at a minimun of $250.per puppy plus health certificate and crate. At the cost of gas, most folks aren't going to drive from back east to get a puppy when there are numerous breeders back there.
People who love their breed want to see it stay good. You are breeding two dogs to produce puppies to sell. Would you be able to tell folks what the sire and dam have done? Not their bloodlines, but what they have accomplished in their life? If you can't say" my girl has points towards her championship, performance titles, etc" and can't say "the sire of these puppies has points, performance titles, etc, then you can't really say you are breeding to better the GSD breed, only that you are breeding to produce babies. 
I will be honest, if you have no clue when to breed, how to breed, etc then you really should not be breeding at this time. Breeding isnot just putting two dogs together and hoping for babies.. Did they tie? Has the male ever bred before and if so, has he been tested for diseases? Are you prepared to have something happen to your girl? Will you be able to explain to your family that your dog is dead and now we have to bottle feed babies 24/7 for weeks and then hope they life. Will you be prepared to lose mom and babies? Or have the litter abort and dump a mess all over your home? Have a $1500 or more c section and lose her on the table? Have her start having puppies and they die because you don't know how to help with the birth, or the mom eats them? Responsible breeders will keep all puppies until t hey can place them, then they will ALWAYS take them back at anytime in the dogs life. They also give contracts guaranteeing the babies against genetic diseases: HD and many other things, are you prepared to have a buyer call back and have a puppy with HD and want you to replace it or give them their money back? This is what responsible breeders do.
To me, you are not prepared to breed, you don't even understand the bitches cycle. Do you know when the embryos implant in the uterous? do you know when the most vunerable time is for losing the babies? If you have to come to a list and ask when to breed, etc then you are not really ready.
You used the excuse about the weather around here. You have less snow in Jackson than we do. Why would snow matter in the winter, the babies will have to be inside the house until at least 8 weeks when you can start selling them. Many many people breed in the winters around here and have no issues. 
I hope if you decide to breed, I hope you have good luck. I will be watching to see the litter advertised when you can't sell these puppies. Like I said before, there are so many mediocre litters being bred and the humane societies, and rescues are full , so you can't blame anyone on this list for hating to see you breeding more just "nothing fancy" puppies because you want a puppy for yourself.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Josh. Welcome to the forum. You need to understand that there are a lot of us on this board who are actively involved in rescue in some form of another. Please take a second to look at the Urgent section. There for many, many of us do not want to see dogs breed impulsively that are not worthy to breed. 

Unfortunately, you jumped right in and gave no other info except that you wanted to breed your dog. If you knew how many times a week a new person shows up with the "I want to breed my pretty dog" line and expects to get help. Sorry, not going to happen without A LOT of info from that person. Now as you started actually answering the questions it does appear that you have done some of your homework. But there is more. If you really want to be a RESPONSIBLE breeder than please read through this forum, learn, and give up info when people ask for it. I think people will be more interested in helping you once you have shown that you are willing to learn and do what is necessary for the betterment of this breed and that you are not just trying to get pretty puppies from your pretty bitch.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> Hi Josh. Welcome to the forum. You need to understand that there are a lot of us on this board who are actively involved in rescue in some form of another. Please take a second to look at the Urgent section. There for many, many of us do not want to see dogs breed impulsively that are not worthy to breed.
> 
> Unfortunately, you jumped right in and gave no other info except that you wanted to breed your dog. If you knew how many times a week a new person shows up with the "I want to breed my pretty dog" line and expects to get help. Sorry, not going to happen without A LOT of info from that person. Now as you started actually answering the questions it does appear that you have done some of your homework. But there is more. If you really want to be a RESPONSIBLE breeder than please read through this forum, learn, and give up info when people ask for it. I think people will be more interested in helping you once you have shown that you are willing to learn and do what is necessary for the betterment of this breed and that you are not just trying to get pretty puppies from your pretty bitch.


Thank you for the insight. I will follow your advice and continue to read.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

3jvj said:


> Thank you for the insight. I will follow your advice and continue to read.



Your welcome. Frida is gorgeous btw. I am very partial to the long hairs since my girl is a long hair.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I hope if you decide to breed, I hope you have good luck. I will be watching to see the litter advertised when you can't sell these puppies.


Is that how it works?

Pups aren't for sale; you missed that. I have homes before the breeding. That is due to the dog. All homes have met the mom, and welcome the pups.
Breeding a puppy for profit is in poor taste. If one does it for a living, that's one thing, doing it to see good genes carried on in another generation is also fine.
The insinuation that I'm doing it to make money is misplaced, and in poor taste.

The pups are going to family and friends. All have been guests in my home, and have met the dog.

Sad that the puppy mill mentality is so prevalent. I can only assume people in Afton are doing whatever they can to make ends meet, but that's not my deal.

Yes; continental, $250. Not much to pay, and that's for the furthest one.
I may drive them though. If the $250 is the deciding factor, then I wouldn't even consider the home.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

First the comment about Afton is stupid and demeaning.there are very very few people breeding dogs down here, thank goodness.Is there really a point of making that nasty comment? Did I at anytime comment about what people are doing in jackson to make ends meet? I don't remember even bringing that up at all .

I am glad you are not selling the pups,.
I don't care if you breed, was just trying to explain why most are suggesting you are not ready to breed right now.You never did reply about the possibilities of losing your girl or what if anything the sire and dam have done except been nice pretty dogs loved by their families.
You will do as you wish and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. 
The suggestions and opinions made by others including me is because the ones that are saying things have all been down the breeding road and have had to deal with losing litters, losing moms, watching babies die, c sections, etc and these same folks have been breeding for years and years and still had bad experiences.
If you don't want to take advice from responsible breeders with years and years of experience, then so be it. You obviously have decided you know alot about breeding, the pros and cons, that your pretty girl is quality enough to breed, even without proving herself at shows or performance events, that the sire is equally as good without proving his abilities and that you are going to produce a litter of "nice cute" puppies for friends and family. Have at it.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Will you be giving these pups with breeding rights (full registration)?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

The thing is you do have to justify bringing more dogs into the world. There are thousands of GSD's in shelters so there really is no shortage of hairy monsters out there. What kind of dog do you want to produce in terms of temperament, drives, and thresholds? How are these two dogs suited to produce what you envision. You give the impression you love your female, think she's beautiful which she is, and therefore you should breed her just because. You don't want to be a breeder you just want the experience of having puppies and owning her future offspring. 

It doesn't make you a monster, but it does make you thoughtless when you really look at how over bred the breed is, and how this over breeding has affected temperament and overall health. A pretty dog is awesome but should she carry the same recessive genes this male does for any health problems you just hurt the breed. The same goes for temperament when combining the tendencies of two dogs without really understanding them you may create a cute fuzzy little liability instead of a sound stable dog. 

People judge what they can see and you haven't shared your vast knowledge of the breed here. I have a beautiful female, but know jack squat about breeding. My female has a low threshold and is wired extremely defensively....she is a fuzzy liability with major temperament flaws because of this. It doesn't take much to work her up and she reacts without assessing the situation defensively lashing out lunging and biting. I think she rocks, but she isn't a great example of the breed temperament wise and should never be bred. I just hope you take our advise to heart instead of blowing it off like an attack rather than concern which is what I am trying to convey.

I don't think you understand each time a dog is bred it is a reflection and a steppingstone for the breed. Weak stones give the breed a bad name, and permanently take away or add traits that may or may not be desirable


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

3jvj, its your dog. You dont need anyones permission, Xrays, Titles, Certifications, or bloodline to breed her. This is getting rediculous.

_*SO, WHEN IS SHE FERTILE?



*_*If you have the male with you he will tell you. Normally it is about 12 days after the bleeding starts. When the bleeding has slowed and thinned to pink. The male will know, he will regularly check, lick, analyze in his build in lab ;-)

BUT, if you are taking your Dam to the Sire the use of a Vet is needed.

On day 1 call your vet for instruction. He will likely have you come in for a SMEAR, on day 5, 7 & 9 and will do a Blood Progesterone test on day 9 to 11. Then you will know Exactly when the peek is. This is the type of testing the Vet does if they are doing artificial insemination or a surgical implant.*
*This blood test, measures in nonamoles, and nanograms, Each measurement is different. It tests her progesterone levels, and lets you know when she drops eggs and when the eggs will ripen.

Recently we bred our girl, she was (nanomoles per liter)

7 nanomoles = 2 nanograms

2.5 on day 7, 4.2 on day 9

7.0 on day 11 and 16.1 on day 13 (ovulation)

A smear, done earlier in the cycle, will test for cornification. it is not as accurate, but when she is fully cornified, she is ready to breed.

*​


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> Will you be giving these pups with breeding rights (full registration)?


They will all be going to "fixed" home environments.
Nobody has intent to breed.
These will be family pets with the exception of one.
One will be going into service for a dea agent (if disposition allows).

With exception of the sire's pick; I won't have any control over that.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the original question - from what I understand, to prepare for breeding it is advised that you have progestron tests run during prior cycles to determine the bitch's optimum breeding time as best as possible.

(Like everyone else, I will refrain from simply answering your question): Now, I learned this (progestrone testing) when my pup had her first heat. It was suggested by a very knowledgable person who does breed that if I were going to breed her I would want to do this. Personally, I will only _consider_ breeding if she does very well in the sport on top of getting a slew of health clearances. 

Having lived in "Wyoming's Scarey Industrial Underbelly" to the south of "The Land of Bars and Motels", I, too, would look for welping in Spring or Summer were I to breed. Given that geography, I can understand the difficulty of titling a dog in anything. Here, people are stunned at an overnight trip for a dog show outside of a regional or national DVG. In Wyoming, I found an overnight trip deriguer. It gets expensive.

I would encourage you to look into progestrone testing at this heat cycle and see if perhaps waiting might not be a good idea. 

BTW Selzer does know her crap -- so if she offers you any more, regard it as a darned good gift.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The bitch is already in heat I believe he said while he was on vacation, the house sitter saw she was in heat. That is why he is in such a rush for answers, he needs to breed her now and wants to know how to tell when to breed her. I also think he said the sire was new at breeding.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

ed1911 said:


> 3jvj, its your dog. You dont need anyones permission, Xrays, Titles, Certifications, or bloodline to breed her. This is getting rediculous. He may not need permission but the xrays, titles and certs ARE necessary. If you feel otherwise please go spend some time in the Urgent section to see what happens to a lot of those pretty but badly bred dogs when their owners no longer want to be bothered.
> 
> _*SO, WHEN IS SHE FERTILE?
> 
> ...



Well?


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

3jvj said:


> They will all be going to "fixed" home environments.
> Nobody has intent to breed.
> These will be family pets with the exception of one.
> *One will be going into service for a dea agent* (if disposition allows).
> ...


 Ummm, really? What division office. I have been with the DOJ for a while now and this is unheard of! We have never gotten one of our service dogs in this manner. We require a significant amount of credibility and many, many more things before we accept a dog from a breeder.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

there are plenty of shows around during spring and summer and fall, from April until October, usually within 6 hours of driving. Anyone who shows dogs, does herding, etc can travel if they are willing and do lots of things. There are 6 shows in Utah in May, 8 shows in idaho in June, 8 shows in Montana in June (a long circuit) and plenty of shows in September and October in idaho and Utah. 
Obedience classes, agility classes, personal trainers abound in Jackson all spring and summer. It is not hard to title a dog in any number of venues from Conformation shows to performance shows, to herding, rally, agility, etc if you want to travel and put in some time. Gas is expensive, but I still travel to show my dogs, as alot of folks do. Living where we live is no excuse to not to "something" with a persons dogs to prove their worthiness to breed.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

3jvj said:


> Pups aren't for sale; you missed that. I have homes before the breeding.
> 
> The pups are going to family and friends. All have been guests in my home, and have met the dog.


Might want to get deposits from these people before the breeding happens. 

My in-laws bred their Shepherd because they had 8 firm commitments from friends and family who wanted puppies. 14 were born. By the time the pups were 7 weeks old, of the 8 people who had made "firm commitments" to take a pup, all but 2 had backed out. They ended up selling 10 of the puppies in the newspaper classifieds and keeping 2 of them themselves. 

If you're not wanting to make money on the breeding, you can ask people to go ahead and show you that they've bought crates, toys, exercise pens, etc. Or you can ask them to go ahead and pay for their puppy's first shots and a series of dewormers. 

Also, the mother rejected her puppies, and tried to kill them. We ended up bottle-feeding all 14 puppies and having to massage them to stimulate digestion and clean up their urine and feces. We worked and slept in shifts for a few weeks.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Zoeys mom said:


> I just hope you take our advise to heart instead of blowing it off like an attack rather than concern which is what I am trying to convey.
> 
> I don't think you understand each time a dog is bred it is a reflection and a steppingstone for the breed. Weak stones give the breed a bad name, and permanently take away or add traits that may or may not be desirable


Were I to take the advice that is majority, I wouldn't be breeding my dog.

If you met my dog, you would see that the general opinion is wrong, or at least rendered without full information present.

There are thousands of dogs dying in shelters because people have not taken the time to place them (as I have), or accepted them back into their home when the prospective home environment changes (which I am also willing to do and demanding of each home).

These aren't souvenirs of my dog, they are extensions of my family.
Yet another reason they won't hit a want ad on a radio station website.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Dharmasmom,
I actually copied and pasted that article I havent bred my female, but if I decide to I will not ask for your blessing or opinion. He did not ask for your opinion on if he should breed or not either. If you dont want to answer the question thats fine but you basically attacked this person for asking, taking for granted that he is an idiot for considering breeding. I for one dont want a shelter dog. I want to choose exactly where my dogs come from and if that requires breeding so be it.
Have a nice day.


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## BellaBaloo (Dec 28, 2010)

I love how it took 7 pages for this guy to get an answer, I would have given up and looked up poorly educated Yahoo! Answers before dealing with all the judgement here. I understand the over population problem and spend many hours looking at all the sad faces in the Urgent section wishing I could take them all in, but come on wouldn't you guys rather help educate someone in a positive way instead of them risking looking up false information or guessing at something themselves? OR maybe the people here don't really know it all like they think they do? Hmmm...I read, because it's interesting but I will never ask another question after seeing the endless posts of judgmental crap. ADIOS! 

Will also let anyone else I know, that they will probably not get any answers here if they need them, so look elsewhere unless they wan't to get bashed.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wilbanks17 said:


> Ummm, really? What division office. I have been with the DOJ for a while now and this is unheard of! We have never gotten one of our service dogs in this manner. We require a significant amount of credibility and many, many more things before we accept a dog from a breeder.


Good on ya. I'm not making it up.

Sorry bud. Go sniff for a liar elsewhere.

I've never asked what division he's in.


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

3jvj said:


> Good on ya. I'm not making it up.
> 
> Sorry bud. Go sniff for a liar elsewhere.
> 
> I've never asked what division he's in.


Wow, I actually defended you during this thread, now I do realize why you were jumped on here. Making statements that you are breeding a dog for the DOJ can really get you in some trouble if false. Goodluck to you.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> BTW Selzer does know her crap -- so if she offers you any more, regard it as a darned good gift.


Thank you. 
I saw this in the other posts, and is why I offered my apology.

I have no doubt that her intention was well placed with concern for the dog(s).


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

ed1911 said:


> Dharmasmom,
> I actually copied and pasted that article I havent bred my female, but if I decide to I will not ask for your blessing or opinion. He did not ask for your opinion on if he should breed or not either. If you dont want to answer the question thats fine but you basically attacked this person for asking, taking for granted that he is an idiot for considering breeding. I for one dont want a shelter dog. I want to choose exactly where my dogs come from and if that requires breeding so be it.
> Have a nice day.



I never attacked him. I was actually pretty nice compared to some of the responses. I would like nothing more than for him to stick around, learn and do everything right. 

As for your post there was nothing to show that it had been copied and pasted. 

That's fine that you don't want a shelter dog. They deserve better than someone who is prejudiced against them and thinks that it is okay to throw two dogs together and make puppies.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wilbanks17 said:


> Wow, I actually defended you during this thread, now I do realize why you were jumped on here. Making statements that you are breeding a dog for the DOJ can really get you in some trouble if false. Goodluck to you.


Blech. You're remark was to call a supposed bluff.

Not so. I have a dea agent that wants a dog. Pretty simple.

Same thing that's getting me "jumped on here".

Good luck to you as well.
Give people a chance.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> there are plenty of shows around during spring and summer and fall, from April until October, usually within 6 hours of driving. Anyone who shows dogs, does herding, etc can travel if they are willing and do lots of things. There are 6 shows in Utah in May, 8 shows in idaho in June, 8 shows in Montana in June (a long circuit) and plenty of shows in September and October in idaho and Utah.
> Obedience classes, agility classes, personal trainers abound in Jackson all spring and summer. It is not hard to title a dog in any number of venues from Conformation shows to performance shows, to herding, rally, agility, etc if you want to travel and put in some time. Gas is expensive, but I still travel to show my dogs, as alot of folks do. Living where we live is no excuse to not to "something" with a persons dogs to prove their worthiness to breed.


I agree with this. 

I am not in the show business though, and not looking to raise the value of the dog. She is a good pet, and that's all I've ever asked of her.

All the steps I've taken are to secure her as a breed, and insure that I don't end up with a touchy neighbor (who doesn't like GSD's) causing strife in my world.

I know it's sad that this world is like that, but it was done on the advice of a breeder with firsthand local knowledge of such a thing.

I didn't want to risk losing my pet. It is important that she be documented as a "good citizen".


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Ive found that its impossible to argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Good luck with these folks 3jvj Im going to find something else to do.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

ed119 and bellaboo, it does seem as if everyone is being judgemental and I suppose in a way they are. I used to sell my puppies with spay/neuter contracts and stuck by that rule and believed that some people should not breed.
I have loosened up a bit , not my business to tell a person whether they can breed or not(still sell my puppies on spay/neuter, although I have not done any breeding for awhile) But, the OP came on board, stating his girl was in heat and wanted to know when to breed her. He was asked about the bitch and the male he was going to breed to. He didn't answer questions for along time, thats why it took 7 pages to get answers, until he started answering, nobody knew what help he was asking for.
Are some folks on this list a bit uptight when it comes to breeding? yes they are but most have very very good reasons and have seen it all. I could do pages of issues I have had while breeding, whelping, and raising puppies, as can others on this list, experienced breeders trying to explain to someone who just wants to have puppies because his girl is sweet, has already got them all placed, and knows everything there is to know about being a breeder, EXCEPT the one thing he came asking for" how and when to breed his dog". So, yes people took exception to this type of attitude: I want to breed my pretty bitch to a nice dog and have done all this reading and stuff, but oh yea, I don't know WHEN to breed her, so please help me stumble through this.
I think some of the replies were a bit harsh, but they needed to be said. This OP wants to breed dogs, but doesn't seem to want to take advice. He has no mentor or help with this, just going to breed dogs. 
His bitch is in heat and he has stated over and over, that he needs to know now when to breed her, he is in a hurry. Not a real good qualification for becoming a responsible breeder to be in such a hurry that he is asking on a public board "how to breed my dog".
Okay, so I take this as someone who is in a big hurry to produce puppies RIGHT NOW. Doesn't want to take advice from anyone that might suggest to wait until he is knowledgeable about breeding, maybe working with a mentor to learn how to do this.He wants to breed now, not next heat, NOW.
I take this type of "breeder" in such a hurry kinda like handing a 10 year old kid a car, the keys and saying I have decided to have you start driving, so go on the internet and ask people how to drive, but don't listen if they tell you that you are not ready to drive right now. Dont listen when they tell you to wait and go to school and learn more before you get into a car and just "drive".
Kinda dangerous scenerio don't you think? Not much different than breeding a bitch today because she is in heat and I HAVE to breed her now and have puppies.
My mentor used to say" there are responsible breeders and there are "producers" of puppies" I would rather take time, learn and be responsible instead of just producing puppies because I want to.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

_A word of precaution_.......before breeding either dog...have bacterial cultures (mycoplasma/etc) & Brucellosis tests done on both. Maiden females and Virgin males, can both be infected by several different bacterias.
_*Always check and test the dogs involved, before any breeding* we do..._


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Umm, just a question? What are you going to do with a litter of puppies with a neighbor who doesn't like GSD's and too many dogs for the citylimits?
You said" if you met my dog you would know she is a nice dog" I can name hundreds of dogs i have met that are nice dogs, glad all those folks don't breed.
You said you were not into showing? Why not? Oh thats right, she is a long coat and can't go into the GSD conformation ring.Why not put working
titles on her? Why are you not into providing the opportunity for your dog to prove herself as a good working dog instead of a lovely pet?
You don't want to listen to good advice given to you by many many people. You came on board to ask how to breed your dog, when those answers didn't come through, now you are acting like you have been treated mean, talking down to others, like your Afton comment, and treating the same people who tried to give you good advice like they don't know anything.
You will breed your girl no matter what, you will use a male that is a pet like your dog and you will pretend you are a responsible breeder. Sad, but true.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> ed119 and bellaboo, it does seem as if everyone is being judgemental and I suppose in a way they are. I used to sell my puppies with spay/neuter contracts and stuck by that rule and believed that some people should not breed.
> I have loosened up a bit , not my business to tell a person whether they can breed or not(still sell my puppies on spay/neuter, although I have not done any breeding for awhile) But, the OP came on board, stating his girl was in heat and wanted to know when to breed her. He was asked about the bitch and the male he was going to breed to. He didn't answer questions for along time, thats why it took 7 pages to get answers, until he started answering, nobody knew what help he was asking for.
> Are some folks on this list a bit uptight when it comes to breeding? yes they are but most have very very good reasons and have seen it all. I could do pages of issues I have had while breeding, whelping, and raising puppies, as can others on this list, experienced breeders trying to explain to someone who just wants to have puppies because his girl is sweet, has already got them all placed, and knows everything there is to know about being a breeder, EXCEPT the one thing he came asking for" how and when to breed his dog". So, yes people took exception to this type of attitude: I want to breed my pretty bitch to a nice dog and have done all this reading and stuff, but oh yea, I don't know WHEN to breed her, so please help me stumble through this.
> I think some of the replies were a bit harsh, but they needed to be said. This OP wants to breed dogs, but doesn't seem to want to take advice. He has no mentor or help with this, just going to breed dogs.
> ...


Given the small amount of info you have regarding my details and time frame, I'll thank you to keep your supposition regarding my details to yourself.
Thank you.

I never said "I have to breed her now", but I have stated (and it is fact), that this heat would be ideally timed for the dog, and my family. Planning for ease of litter is hardly the jump and go deal you're making out, so save it.

I started driving when I was eight, and bought my first house by twenty.

If I were so irresponsible, would I be here looking for answers?

Not wanting to take a beating over assumptions, and listening to advice are two different things entirely. Advice I want and need. Opinion and subjective nonsense are unwelcome and rebuked.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Umm, just a question? What are you going to do with a litter of puppies with a neighbor who doesn't like GSD's and too many dogs for the citylimits?
> You said" if you met my dog you would know she is a nice dog" I can name hundreds of dogs i have met that are nice dogs, glad all those folks don't breed.
> You said you were not into showing? Why not? Oh thats right, she is a long coat and can't go into the GSD conformation ring.Why not put working
> titles on her? Why are you not into providing the opportunity for your dog to prove herself as a good working dog instead of a lovely pet?
> ...


You misunderstand. I want good advice, I'm just not hearing it from you. It will be irrelevant shortly as it will be easier to place you on ignore (which is probably what you should do with me as well). My afton comment came after you TWICE made mention to the selling of the pups, and how you'd be looking for my ad. Save the venom and look in the mirror. Or read the posts; it's all right there.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

For what it's worth, I never said "if you met my dog you would know she is a nice dog". If you're going to tear me down; do me the service of quoting me correctly.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

3jvj said:


> Given the small amount of info you have regarding my details and time frame, I'll thank you to keep your supposition regarding my details to yourself.
> Thank you.
> 
> I never said "I have to breed her now", but I have stated (and it is fact), that this heat would be ideally timed for the dog, and my family. Planning for ease of litter is hardly the jump and go deal you're making out, so save it.
> ...


OP, you are very confusing. Advice is "an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct" - that was pulled straight from a dictionary. You say you want advice, but no opinions? That's impossible. Advice is typically something that is based on experience, which then is an opinion; albeit an informed one.  Not sure why you ask for advice and shoot down everyone who tries to give you any. I have yet to see any "nonsense" posted by anyone here. If you are consistently getting the same advice from many knowledgeable people on this board then maybe you have to take a step back and take a real hard look at the picture. Also, if you did not want a "beating over assumptions" maybe you should have made it clearer and more detailed in your original post about your situation.

Besides, I would think driving at the age of eight is illegal most anywhere... so yes that does seem irresponsible. Unless it's one of those toy cars, lol.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

*I like others gave you plenty of advice, you just didn't want to listen. I am glad you drove at 8 and bought your first house at 20m but I don't believe I asked about how your grew up or your income level. I just used the driving as an example, sometimes you need to really know when to listen to good advice that you are given. I have probably bred more litters and champions than you have owned dogs,so I am not exactly non experienced. I was even going to offer to help you since we live so close together, but obviously my experience with raising and training dogs, whelping many litters for myself and other breeders and being involved in all aspect of training including search and rescue, police and drug dog training, obedience and conformation plus working for vets is not enough experience for you.*
* Breed your dog, enjoy your puppies and have fun with them. I wish you well*


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> *I like others gave you plenty of advice, you just didn't want to listen. I am glad you drove at 8 and bought your first house at 20m but I don't believe I asked about how your grew up or your income level. I just used the driving as an example, sometimes you need to really know when to listen to good advice that you are given. I have probably bred more litters and champions than you have owned dogs,so I am not exactly non experienced. I was even going to offer to help you since we live so close together, but obviously my experience with raising and training dogs, whelping many litters for myself and other breeders and being involved in all aspect of training including search and rescue, police and drug dog training, obedience and conformation plus working for vets is not enough experience for you.*
> * Breed your dog, enjoy your puppies and have fun with them. I wish you well*


Thank you. Had you been so cordial in your other responses I would have welcomed the help. Read back through your posts, and you will see why I took offense to your "advice". Your years of experience failed to show through in your responses, or was at the very least hindered by snide commentary from about the third post on.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

3jvj said:


> You misunderstand. I want good advice, I'm just not hearing it from you. It will be irrelevant shortly as it will be easier to place you on ignore (which is probably what you should do with me as well). My afton comment came after you TWICE made mention to the selling of the pups, and how you'd be looking for my ad. Save the venom and look in the mirror. Or read the posts; it's all right there.



People have given you good advice. You just don't want to hear what they are saying. You want people to tell you only what you want to hear. That rarely happens on this board, ESPECIALLY when it comes to breeding.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Verivus said:


> OP, you are very confusing. Advice is "an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct" - that was pulled straight from a dictionary. You say you want advice, but no opinions? That's impossible. Advice is typically something that is based on experience, which then is an opinion; albeit an informed one.  Not sure why you ask for advice and shoot down everyone who tries to give you any. I have yet to see any "nonsense" posted by anyone here. If you are consistently getting the same advice from many knowledgeable people on this board then maybe you have to take a step back and take a real hard look at the picture. Also, if you did not want a "beating over assumptions" maybe you should have made it clearer and more detailed in your original post about your situation.
> 
> Besides, I would think driving at the age of eight is illegal most anywhere... so yes that does seem irresponsible. Unless it's one of those toy cars, lol.


Yes, I've done a decent job of ruffling feathers, and tried to make my apologies as I've gone.

Some have been nice enough to give the answers I've been looking for.
I've taken some lumps from the crowd, and insulted some pretty decent members. 

All in all I'm no better off, and have been isolated from what should be a good source by people who have obviously witnessed some not so reputable breeding.


Pretty sure it was still illegal when I taught my son to drive at eight.

What fun though.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> *A word of precaution.......before breeding either dog...have bacterial cultures (mycoplasma/etc) & Brucellosis tests done on both. Maiden females and Virgin males, can both be infected by several different bacterias.*
> _**Always check and test the dogs involved, before any breeding* we do...*_


Sometimes the good stuff gets lost during a trainwreck. Hopefully the OP saw this, reposting it just in case.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't go around patting myself on the back saying what a good breeder I am. I am sorry if my advice seemed uncordial to you, but sometimes it gets frustrating when experienced people try to help. I misquoted you about the nice dog, sorry. I reread and you said she was a nice pet. You have stated over and over about what a special pet she is, she is a welcome member of your family and you wanting to make sure she is a good member of society by making sure she is a good pet to you and anyone who has met her. I applaude you for that. You also stated that you were not into showing to make her more valuable. I don't show my dogs to make them more valuable, I show them to get their championships or working titles to know they are doing what they are bred to do, not just be family pets. Being a family pet is the best thing they can be, don't get me wrong, but to put out the time and effort to get titles on a dog before breeding just shows that dog is of sound mind and body and a true GSD.
I usually don't get involved in these things, but I was interested when I saw how close you were. I tried to offer some advice and you have decided to pretty much jump on everything I said. I did say something about selling the puppies, so I made a mistake, then you made a rude comment about Afton. I was just trying to say how many litters of GSD's there are daily on the local classified and such.Glad you are giving them to family members. I didn't bring up income, you did. I used the driving as an example about not jumping into things until you were fully prepared and knew enough to get you through breeding and whelping a litter. Believe me, without a mentor , so many thing can go wrong and tragedies can occur. 
As I said, I wish you well and hope things turn out for you.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> People have given you good advice. You just don't want to hear what they are saying. You want people to tell you only what you want to hear. That rarely happens on this board, ESPECIALLY when it comes to breeding.


I'm open here.

What good advice have I not taken and been thankful for?

I've even made it a point to thank people for it. The only bitter I've spewed has been in defense.

Or has the good advice been "don't breed"?


That is pretty subjective. If everybody followed it; there would be no shepherds, yes?




Look, I really am honestly looking for help, but I don't need people telling me that my dog isn't worth breeding without meeting the dog. People can say that I'm not worthy, and that's fine, but even that is viewed through the microscope of a thread that has left me a pride swallowing punching bag. There's been some pretty trashy stuff slung my way, and no way for me to be nice about dealing with it.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Sometimes the good stuff gets lost during a trainwreck. Hopefully the OP saw this, reposting it just in case.


I did, and did; thanks. I just didn't get to it due to other garbage.

I have a lot of deer, elk, and moose so it seemed the right thing to do.

Despite the painting I'm getting; I've tried to take every reasonable precaution prior to this.

Thanks again.


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## zeus von entringer staal (Jan 3, 2011)

This thread train is steaming outa of control. just wanted to say Nice photos of your dog and welcome Josh.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I don't go around patting myself on the back saying what a good breeder I am. I am sorry if my advice seemed uncordial to you, but sometimes it gets frustrating when experienced people try to help. I misquoted you about the nice dog, sorry. I reread and you said she was a nice pet. You have stated over and over about what a special pet she is, she is a welcome member of your family and you wanting to make sure she is a good member of society by making sure she is a good pet to you and anyone who has met her. I applaude you for that. You also stated that you were not into showing to make her more valuable. I don't show my dogs to make them more valuable, I show them to get their championships or working titles to know they are doing what they are bred to do, not just be family pets. Being a family pet is the best thing they can be, don't get me wrong, but to put out the time and effort to get titles on a dog before breeding just shows that dog is of sound mind and body and a true GSD.
> I usually don't get involved in these things, but I was interested when I saw how close you were. I tried to offer some advice and you have decided to pretty much jump on everything I said. I did say something about selling the puppies, so I made a mistake, then you made a rude comment about Afton. I was just trying to say how many litters of GSD's there are daily on the local classified and such.Glad you are giving them to family members. I didn't bring up income, you did. I used the driving as an example about not jumping into things until you were fully prepared and knew enough to get you through breeding and whelping a litter. Believe me, without a mentor , so many thing can go wrong and tragedies can occur.
> As I said, I wish you well and hope things turn out for you.


Again, thank you. Please re-read your posts (including the third person narratives where you paint me in ill light).
It is my hope that you will see that my responses were just that; responses. I'm not a confrontational or overtly mean person. I bear you no ill will, and wish you the best. Cheers.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

zeus von entringer staal said:


> This thread train is steaming outa of control. just wanted to say Nice photos of your dog and welcome Josh.


Thank you.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

WOW!! Nobody is innocent here and I'm floored by half the things said! I will leave my opinion out of it, and say, Welcome, please tread carefully, there are EXCELLENT sources on here, some are burnt already, sadly enough.

You have a nice looking pet! Please Stick around. I cannot answer your question due to the fact I have a male GSD and no experience with In-Tact females, as I chose not to breed! :-/


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

3jvj said:


> I'm open here.
> 
> What good advice have I not taken and been thankful for?
> 
> ...



I know you are looking for help. And yes, you have received some rude and snide comments. But the advice that is consistent, even in all the snarky remarks is that you need to title your female, find a male who is proven AND titled, and to wait. Learn everything there is about breeding first, that included everything that can go wrong. After you have done all that, then seriously look into breeding. 

I am impressed that you have hung in here as long as you have. I also was impressed when you said you were going to insist that any pups be returned to you if it doesn't work out with their new owners. 

I am not a breeder, have no desire to breed. But personally, I think you have the ability and tenacity to be a VERY good breeder. But you have more work to do and probably shouldn't jump in it with this heat. Continue to learn first and then proceed. 

No one is insulting your girl if they say she isn't breed worthy. It is in no way meant to be an insult. I love my girl more than anything in this world and thing she is the greatest do to ever walk on four legs. But I also know she is not breed worthy. It doesn't make me love her any less.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You are asking for help, but only if the help being sent your way is what you want to hear. You love your dog, you think she is perfect and the male is perfect and that is great, but others have said, including myself, that to breed your sweet pretty family pet is probably not the best thing to do. Sure you are trying to be prepared, but still don't know alot of the basics.
It would not have mattered if your dog was a ring tailed cumquat, any responsible breeders of any breed would have said the same things that have been said to you tonight on any list: why are you breeding your pet?. That doesn't make us bad or mean or hateful or even trying to trash you, but just a realistic question that any responsible breeder of any breed would ask.
You made a comment about if nobody bred GSD"s (now don't get all pissy if I didn't say it exactly as you did,)there would not be any GSD's around. That would be true, except like any breed there is a standard that is made to be followed when breeding dogs and when anyone deviates from that standard, then the quality of the breed will go downhill. There are so many GSD's sitting chained in backyards, in pounds, in pet stores, in puppy mills being bred, its very sad to alot of the "backbone" breeders of GSD when someone comes aboard and pretty much says they are breeding their girl so that they can keep a puppy and the rest are going to friends and family and wants to know when to breed. Again, I am not going to use examples since it was used against me the last time, but this just puts up a flag and gets things going.
Yes, most of the advice was not to breed your girl, I think that advice is being ignored and you will breed her. That is your choice and your decision to make. But you can't expect a "newbie" to breeding like you to get hand slaps and high fives and congratulations for this upcoming litter when the long standing members of this forum have seen it all and witnessed it all and want to protect their breed. 
Its not just this forum that gets like this, any breed forum will treat the "great breeding debate" the same way and suggest that you or anyone don't breed their family pet.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

3jvj said:


> I did, and did; thanks. I just didn't get to it due to other garbage.
> 
> I have a lot of deer, elk, and moose so it seemed the right thing to do.
> 
> ...


The cause for concern is very real. When the water table froze, the deer took to eating the smaller icicles as they fell off the roof. I'm not sure if they were after the water or the salt from the shingles, but the yard debris has been heavy.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Troll alert, don't feed the troll


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I think he just doesnt really understand what is being said about testing for brucellosis and other "sexual" diseases with his dog.( Around here in Wyoming brucellosis is a big thing because of the buffalo and elk and cows becoming infected and I believe that is what he thought the warning was about, not about testing his dogs before breeding. ) 
Here I am trying to defend this person who didn't want my advice. Am I dumb or what?


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> Here I am trying to defend this person who didn't want my advice. Am I dumb or what?


Intelligent, Helpful, Compassionate? Human? I've seen no dumbness!!


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> You are asking for help, but only if the help being sent your way is what you want to hear. You love your dog, you think she is perfect and the male is perfect and that is great, but others have said, including myself, that to breed your sweet pretty family pet is probably not the best thing to do. Sure you are trying to be prepared, but still don't know alot of the basics.
> It would not have mattered if your dog was a ring tailed cumquat, any responsible breeders of any breed would have said the same things that have been said to you tonight on any list: why are you breeding your pet?. That doesn't make us bad or mean or hateful or even trying to trash you, but just a realistic question that any responsible breeder of any breed would ask.
> You made a comment about if nobody bred GSD"s (now don't get all pissy if I didn't say it exactly as you did,)there would not be any GSD's around. That would be true, except like any breed there is a standard that is made to be followed when breeding dogs and when anyone deviates from that standard, then the quality of the breed will go downhill. There are so many GSD's sitting chained in backyards, in pounds, in pet stores, in puppy mills being bred, its very sad to alot of the "backbone" breeders of GSD when someone comes aboard and pretty much says they are breeding their girl so that they can keep a puppy and the rest are going to friends and family and wants to know when to breed. Again, I am not going to use examples since it was used against me the last time, but this just puts up a flag and gets things going.
> Yes, most of the advice was not to breed your girl, I think that advice is being ignored and you will breed her. That is your choice and your decision to make. But you can't expect a "newbie" to breeding like you to get hand slaps and high fives and congratulations for this upcoming litter when the long standing members of this forum have seen it all and witnessed it all and want to protect their breed.
> Its not just this forum that gets like this, any breed forum will treat the "great breeding debate" the same way and suggest that you or anyone don't breed their family pet.


Your synopses is spot on, and well said.

All I can offer to those in doubt is that I have left plenty of footsteps behind me, and spent so many hours witness to good dogs and bad that I place myself a decent judge of what is a good dog and a bad dog.
The criteria I'm using is not that of a happy dog owner who wants another puppy. That would be irresponsible, and it would be far easier to just go get another dog from a breeder. Really, it would be far easier.

The fact of the matter is, I have never met another dog that so closely resembled the textbook example of what a good GSD is (despite not having the ribbons to back my claims). This was not entered into lightly. I also have to contend with the fact that her offspring may not be as good as her. It is a risk I am willing to take. The fact that she is a good pet does not preclude that fact that she bears all the hallmarks that make a good working dog. Her value to me is not her only value to the breed. Just because I do not use her innate (and bred for) talents does not make them any less present or useful.

A good GSD in the wrong home can be a loaded gun, and I'm shocked that no one has mentioned this yet. I am not some rogue guy with a mutt and no means to do the right thing.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I think he just doesnt really understand what is being said about testing for brucellosis and other "sexual" diseases with his dog.( Around here in Wyoming brucellosis is a big thing because of the buffalo and elk and cows becoming infected and I believe that is what he thought the warning was about, not about testing his dogs before breeding. )
> Here I am trying to defend this person who didn't want my advice. Am I dumb or what?


The vet drew blood and did a panel test for things that would abort or cause issues. It also included testing for glucose, iron, and whatever else he deemed worthy.

Seriously people. I'm up to about 1k in certs and test here (not bragging or comparing- just saying that I've done what the vet deemed necessary for her safety).

This was not an off the cuff thing. I've been building up to this point. Her heat just came a month earlier than we had planned.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

You, sadly, have no idea how naive and uneducated about the breed your statements sound. 
Like "I am the big noble breeder who know everything best except how and when to breed the dog".
This is a lost cause and another backyard breeder in the making, unfortunately.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I think he just doesnt really understand what is being said about testing for brucellosis and other "sexual" diseases with his dog.( Around here in Wyoming brucellosis is a big thing because of the buffalo and elk and cows becoming infected and I believe that is what he thought the warning was about, not about testing his dogs before breeding. )
> Here I am trying to defend this person who didn't want my advice. Am I dumb or what?


You are probably right. When I read the panel I assumed it was one and the same. I didn't realize that he was testing for a canine specific bacteria.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> You, sadly, have no idea how naive and uneducated about the breed your statements sound.
> Like "I am the big noble breeder who know everything best except how and when to breed the dog".
> This is a lost cause and another backyard breeder in the making, unfortunately.


You, sadly, have every idea of how insulting and condescending you wanted to sound there.


Oh wait, anybody want to point out the advice here?


That's right, it's all me here (again).

Seriously though, troll comment wasn't enough?


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Zoinks. This backyard guy made it all the way around the flowchart.
Even by your own standards I'm fair (if not ignorant).

It's really sad that I'm less excited about this than I was this morning.
Bad form, gang.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

3jvj said:


> Zoinks. This backyard guy made it all the way around the flowchart.
> Even by your own standards I'm fair (if not ignorant).
> .


How did you make it all the way if you said yourself your dog has no titles in anything other than having a CGC (we are assuming you meant CGC or CGN)?

That box bottom right corner...


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> How did you make it all the way if you said yourself your dog has no titles in anything other than having a CGC (we are assuming you meant CGC or CGN)?
> 
> That box bottom right corner...


She has. By two GSD breeders, the gal who certified her for her "good citizen", and two other breeders (granted- both were ridgeback breeders).

Or did the corner just forget to say "awards", but it really meant to and forgot?

or are you just having fun with the crowd?

It's okay; I'm over it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3jvj said:


> This group is thick with assumptions.
> 
> What does it take for you people to find breeding acceptable?


Pretty simple questions with a pretty simple answer.










If your dog makes its way through the chart, I'm sure a lot of people will think your dog is breed worthy. 

If it doesn't and most of our pets won't, than enjoy it as the great pet that it probably is and buy another puppy from a breeder who breeds dogs that does follow this chart.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

3jvj said:


> She has. By two GSD breeders, the gal who certified her for her "good citizen", and two other breeders (granted- both were ridgeback breeders).


The box says
"Has your dog been judged by impartial outside observers as physically conforming to the breed standard"

AKA.. a breed judge like at a conformation event not just random people who know dogs.

The previous box about temperament, as already stated a CGC does not prove temperament. What do you have to prove your dog has not only good temperament but correct temperament for a GSD.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

3jvj said:


> A good GSD in the wrong home can be a loaded gun, and I'm shocked that no one has mentioned this yet. I am not some rogue guy with a mutt and no means to do the right thing.


ANY dog in the wrong home can be a loaded gun.

A poorly bred dog can be a loaded gun that is missing a safety.

A CGC just means you have demonstrated that, on that day, your dog behaved properly as a pet. If you got the CGC before the dog was fully mature it means even less. 

There are, in fact, some with much experience who have argued that certain breed worthiness tests are not of value. 

As and end user, I would still prefer *those* people titled their dogs anyway for some level of third party independent review in a standardized setting, but at least they do have knowledge of working drives, temperment, and nerve and the experience to put the pressure on a dog to ensure it is a good specimen. Even so, I do think that can lead to kennel blindness.

However most end users of true working dogs, such as your DOJ friend buy adult dogs, not puppies so WYSIWYG and it either is or is not there (compared to a puppy which is completely unknown, even with the genetics)--I gather some departments have breeding programs or arrangements, but would think they still have a plan or outplacing the "culls" that don't make the cut.

Nobody is discouraging breeding fine animals. But it is clear you have not demonstrated (to those from whom you are seeking help) the experience and knowledge to make that call and understand the ramifications. Hip Dysplasia (one of many things that can go wrong) is polygenic and two OFA excellents can create a litter of crippled pups. Nerve is wildely misunderstood and the most dangerous dog out there is one the owners think is a great watchdog because it is a complete and total nervebag. etc etc etc.

People have been patient with you. I am not sure what waiting through another heat cycle and learning more is going to hurt. You have not even posted the pedigrees of this litter and really laid it all on the dam as far as genetics.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I went back to my cup of coffee and have one other thing then really don't have anything else to add.

In 1997, I bought what was supposed to be a wonderful puppy. Met the parents.
Mom was the daughter of a Crufts BOB winner (she was mainly German Showlines) - very nice dog. I met her. Father was a Czech import - was actually used in a seeing eye dog breeding program. They were going to complement each other. Met the father. He was also a really nice dog. Breeder dabbled in dogsport but really was not as OCD about knowing how the lines would interact with one another. Maybe someone got a dog out of that litter where all the "complementing" worked out fine but it was not me, and the puppies..well...nobody could really tell the difference at that age.

I wound up with a dog who
--had severe allergies
--had poor nerves and was scared of his own shadow
--looked like Dr Frankenstein put him together
--Developed perianal fistulas
--was a cryptorchid

Well, Toby lived with us as a pet for 11 years before he died and had the best life we could give him, but neither we nor he deserved what we got. Maybe someone else would have dumped him in a shelter or euthanized him but the breeding decision you make today may have 10-14 years on this earth and there is some responsibility associated with that decision.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

wow up to 12 pages since I last posted Josh, guess your pretty popular

Ok my 2cents, Positives=dogs are ofa'd, health testing, pre breeding screenings done, good temperaments, has homes lined up for all puppies, isn't charging, will go out on s/n contracts, has vet back up & breeder back up (did I forget anything else?)

Negatives= (according to some) no titles, lack of knowledge re: whelping/breeding.

Had the AUDACITY to ask a question

You know peeps, there are hundreds of people that breed two dogs with FAR less than the above, and you've most likely read it here. This person is asking a question/looking for advice, granted he may not have started the post with all info, but sheesh, what he does will not IMPACT one single person here nor will it be detrimental to the contiuation of the german shepherd breed. 

He's not asking you to get a dog from him, the insults, and "I know better than you attitudes" , "my way is the best way", is getting old. 

I think there have been some who have given him advice he can use and have been atleast non judgemental and others who have not.

I guess I'm more peeved at the rudeness and holier than thou attitude than what he is actually 'doing'. 

Ok done with my rant, I hope instead of interrogating, now that he's provided most answers, he will get the GOOD advice I know can be found here vs the judgemental stuff..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

And I totally agree with Nancy's above statement she posted while I was which is:

"Well, Toby lived with us as a pet for 11 years before he died and had the best life we could give him, but neither we nor he deserved what we got. Maybe someone else would have dumped him in a shelter or euthanized him but the breeding decision you make today may have 10-14 years on this earth and there is some responsibility associated with that decision. "
__________________


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I just have to say that I am Switzerland on this debate as I have zero knowledge on breeding and will never partake, but know and understand the feelings of many experienced members on this board. However, I have never seen a newbie take so many lashes, and continue to respond in a well spoken manner. I have to commend Josh on that. Whether he knows what he's doing or not, he's got some of the thickest skin I've ever seen. Good luck with whatever you decide....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Welcome Josh,
Its a shame you can't ask a question and get an answer without all the judgemental drivel. After you informed the board that the dog was papered, hips done, and you and your wife have healthcare and vet experience, the judgements should have ceased, and in some cases apologies given for being presumptous. There are many people on this board that breed with no more than these basics, especially those that breed by AKC/GSDCA standards. Some of these police on this board doing the judging have been in the breed a minute and others that weigh in on breeding have never bred a litter. Still, there have been others that have been very reasonable in their repies. I hope you stay, you don't have to listen to halfperts to want to particpate in a board on German Shepherds. And since you didn't fall allover yourself thanking some for their presumptous judgements, then they are finished????? Should have never started if they can't be helpful in a civil fashion. The most knowledgable people on this board seldom come out and slam people's intentions when they post them. They often try to guide people with factual information that they think would be helpful to the person. Others who come off as the LAST word on what you should be doing....well lets say they're not that group of the most knowledgable people. 
Good Luck and never stop learning be it academic or training about this breed.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I know you will breed your girl, there is not a doubt in my mind.I hope all goes well for you. Hope you know when to expect her temp to drop before going into labor.Hope you realize when she is in trouble and needs a vet or know when she doesn't. Hope you know what to have on hand for the whelping. Hope your girl goes through labor well and has a healthy litter and is not a bitch to panic and have nothing to do with her babies. 
Just so you know, I am not of the puppy mill mentality, nor do I breed dogs to help my income just because I live in Afton.I worry about my own job and my husbands and having a litter is so very very expensive, if done properly you spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars if things are normal, thousands if things go bad.( As a matter of fact, I have not bred a litter for over two years, the ecomony is bad and I worry that people would buy a puppy and then not have the financial means to keep it or could end up losing their jobs and houses and trying to give the dog away. I always take back my dogs that I have bred, and have a contract that states that, but some folks just panic and dump the dog at a rescue and you don't find out until too late. Happened to me once, I was able to get the dog back)I was born and raised in California and spent years working with some top breeders and handlers. I have never bred a dog of any breed( I have had three: Shelties, GSD and Bernese Mountain dogs)without either performance titles or conformation titles. I have a male Bernese right now who is pointed from the puppy class, who is an amazing dog, yet have turned down many owners with females who want to breed to him., Why? Because their special girls are not titled in any way, have nothing to offer the breed itself except being a female . I feel strongly about breeding and doing it for the right reasons, but I have been around for many many years and have learned this from others experiences and my own. I spent years working with breeders to learn the right and wrong way to do things and love nothing better than to help the next person along the right track, but that person has to be willing to listen and learn, not just bypass some questions and forget others and have a thick skin but not really be listening. I was rather excited to think I could help you since I live so close,but you seem determined to not like what I have to say and are not interested in advice given by me or the hundreds of others who are like me and many who have more experience than me. You took things and turned them around or decided they were snide comments. Frustration maybe, but not snide.
I have also worked for vets for over 35 years and have seen some horrific cases of bitches in labor, bitches with puppies stuck, bitches eating babies, bitches seizing, having eclampsia and being given iv's all night and not able to nurse the babies for days, then trying to get her to take them back. Tubing and bottle feeding orphan babies for weeks, then still having them die.Watching owners devastated when they are told their special girl is dead and the babies are dead during a c section. Watching and owner cry because his favorite girl lost her puppies one by one, then she died.. 

But then I have seen healthy litters born and puppies thrive.Its wonderful to have those happy healty litters and wonderful owners,but those are not the ones you remember when you breed dogs, you remember with sadness the losses and try to help the next person avoid the same sadness.
Like all the others who have written to you, many with lots more experience and expertise than I have, I have offered advice and tried to help, but it has fallen on determined ears of someone who will breed no matter what. 
Good luck to your girl. She cant tell you whether to breed her or not, she can't tell you she doesn't want to be a mother, she has to do what you plan for her.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Welcome Josh,
> Its a shame you can't ask a question and get an answer without all the judgemental drivel. After you informed the board that the dog was papered, hips done, and you and your wife have healthcare and vet experience, the judgements should have ceased, and in some cases apologies given for being presumptous. There are many people on this board that breed with no more than these basics, especially those that breed by AKC/GSDCA standards. Some of these police on this board doing the judging have been in the breed a minute and others that weigh in on breeding have never bred a litter. Still, there have been others that have been very reasonable in their repies. I hope you stay, you don't have to listen to halfperts to want to particpate in a board on German Shepherds. And since you didn't fall allover yourself thanking some for their presumptous judgements, then they are finished????? Should have never started if they can't be helpful in a civil fashion. The most knowledgable people on this board seldom come out and slam people's intentions when they post them. They often try to guide people with factual information that they think would be helpful to the person. Others who come off as the LAST word on what you should be doing....well lets say they're not that group of the most knowledgable people.
> Good Luck and never stop learning be it academic or training about this breed.


I've been seeing this thread without actually reading because it quickly took a nasty turn.

But now that you point it out... none of the breeders (distance aside) I respect and would buy a pup from that belong to this board, has posted in this thread.

With the exception of you, of course!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> Welcome Josh,
> Its a shame you can't ask a question and get an answer without all the judgemental drivel. After you informed the board that the dog was papered, hips done, and you and your wife have healthcare and vet experience, the judgements should have ceased, and in some cases apologies given for being presumptous. There are many people on this board that breed with no more than these basics, especially those that breed by AKC/GSDCA standards. Some of these police on this board doing the judging have been in the breed a minute and others that weigh in on breeding have never bred a litter. Still, there have been others that have been very reasonable in their repies. I hope you stay, you don't have to listen to halfperts to want to particpate in a board on German Shepherds. And since you didn't fall allover yourself thanking some for their presumptous judgements, then they are finished????? Should have never started if they can't be helpful in a civil fashion. The most knowledgable people on this board seldom come out and slam people's intentions when they post them. They often try to guide people with factual information that they think would be helpful to the person. Others who come off as the LAST word on what you should be doing....well lets say they're not that group of the most knowledgable people.
> Good Luck and never stop learning be it academic or training about this breed.


It is true that there are plenty of breeders that breed with even less and put dogs into the world that end up dying horrible deaths in shelters because the breeders who produced them are nowehere to be found when the dog is in trouble, regardless whether it is health, temperament or bad owners. The fact that breeding can be done without good knowledge of the breed and breeding and without proving a working dog - does not mean it should be done or should be encouraged. As to the free puppies, in this culture it is often easy come, easy go. While there are many that will take a free papered puppy, the question is how many would spend a lot of money once the "free puppy" becomes expensive.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Hi Josh!

Sorry if this information was already posted, but I may have missed it... this is a long thread!

I am very glad to hear that you have done the necessary tests for your female. I didn't see whether the stud owners have been as diligent, though? I only ask because I would hate for you to spend so much effort and financial resources making sure your female is sound, and then get pups with health issues because the stud doesn't have good hips/elbows, etc. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) you said the stud is six years old and is inexperienced? 

Just wondering if he's had his hips/elbows/etc. OFAed?


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

RebelGSD said:


> It is true that there are plenty of breeders that breed with even less and put dogs into the world that end up dying horrible deaths in shelters because the breeders who produced them are nowehere to be found when the dog is in trouble, regardless whether it is health, temperament or bad owners. The fact that breeding can be done without good knowledge of the breed and breeding and without proving a working dog - does not mean it should be done or should be encouraged. As to the free puppies, in this culture it is often easy come, easy go. While there are many that will take a free papered puppy, the question is how many would spend a lot of money once the "free puppy" becomes expensive.



I think it depends on the person. Our pup (a GS mix) was free. She's had shots, been spayed (never gave a thought to breeding) and we do all the heartworm, etc., prevention. She will be with us for the entirety of her life.

She was only free to get, not to keep, so it's the person, imo.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

FWIW-And I really do not think I am overly judging. I could make many of the same comments to people who title their dogs and breed them without researching the lines......I guessing being on the bad end of what I thought was a good breeding with good dogs (and there are issues with my current female as well-she has HD with a litter zw of 78 and both parents good hips)

When I was considering breeding my 8 year old male (and I was - and was looking at lines/knew of some crosses to avoid, has working certifications etc.) one of the things I did was have his semen checked. Made the whole thing a moot point. Vet said....often you don't use it you loose it. He could ejaculate but nothing was there.

To be honest, I was relieved because of the angst I had about taking on a puppy and what if there was a problem.


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## Lmilr (Jan 12, 2011)

Sunstreaked said:


> She was only free to get, not to keep, so it's the person, imo.


 Agreed!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Sunstreaked said:


> I think it depends on the person. Our pup (a GS mix) was free. She's had shots, been spayed (never gave a thought to breeding) and we do all the heartworm, etc., prevention. She will be with us for the entirety of her life.
> 
> She was only free to get, not to keep, so it's the person, imo.


I have personally rescued too many from owners and shelters that were thrown away the moment they required a $200-300 vet visit. So do rescues everywhere. It is not everybody but it is too many. And it is impossible to know until it happens. Nobody will go to the breeder or rescue and tell them that they will get rid of the dog as soon as they end up costing more than food and basics. People who can easly afford it do it too.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a question -- why is the male scheduled to be neutered at the age of six? And what makes him "the dog" to breed your girl to?


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

RebelGSD said:


> I have personally rescued too many from owners and shelters that were thrown away the moment they required a $200-300 vet visit. So do rescues everywhere. It is not everybody but it is too many. And it is impossible to know until it happens. Nobody will go to the breeder or rescue and tell them that they will get rid of the dog as soon as they end up costing more than food and basics. People who can easly afford it do it too.


I wasn't disagreeing with you, just noting that each individual is different. 

A person is someone who either meets their responsibilities or they don't. Sometimes that goes way beyond food and basics, but still a responsibility. I'd go without a lot of things before not taking care of my "family".


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Please answer for these comments before you make any more "I'm sorry you just don't see it my way" style commentary.

I'm still trying to be civil here, but you don't seem to get how you have been offensive. I've saved you the trouble of re-reading your own posts. Here's the highlights:



wyominggrandma said:


> "You do realize that selling dogs around here is very very tough."
> 
> "I NEVER sold one puppy to anyone in the Jackson/Afton area because most don't care about the dogs, if one gets killed you just get another, since there are so many breeders."
> 
> ...



I've left out the majority of the "momma knows best" diatribe because it's all the same stuff. In almost every post you gave some example of yourself, why you knew best, why I was wrong, and how I wouldn't listen.

Not once have you opened your mind to the thought that maybe, just maybe, this show winning line might be worthy of breeding, and that I may be a responsible person and not some idiot looking to make a buck.

Your persistent judgment of me is growing tiresome. I invite you to see the dog for yourself, or save the judgment for someone else. Plain and simple. Look, or be quiet. Please. Going down this road any further with me will not make you look any better in my eyes at this point. I have no more patience for your condescending attitude that seems laced with rejected thoughtfulness. Playing the martyr victim while throwing insults my way is hardly worth your time, and certainly not worth mine.

Again I invite you to read your own posts, but use some empathy this time. Pretend you have a dog worthy of breeding (and know it) that you have invested lots of time and heart into to be sure she is safe and ready, and then read your posts from my perspective.

My offer is also solid. I assure I am not a mean or bad guy. I will happily buy you a cup of tea, and welcome your input as to the dog's worthiness. I've already heard it from several breeders, trainers, and vets, but maybe the rest of the group would feel better if they heard it from you?


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Andaka said:


> I have a question -- why is the male scheduled to be neutered at the age of six? And what makes him "the dog" to breed your girl to?


The dog is a breathtaking example of a GSD. I fell for him the first time he told me to "GET BACK" from his owners rig. Not ferocious, just confident. About a year ago (when the wife and I began down this road), I inquired about the dog and found the owner. When I found that it was worthy (from a paper perspective), I made several "play dates" to get a feel for the dog. Then we went to the vet, and did all the things that one would do to decide if it was a good idea or not.

I must also be honest here though; I do have reservations. I have seen dogs that I liked better than him, but that is my personal taste, and not a reflection of the breed. I would like an amber eyed, long haired, red male.

This guy just happens to be what the standard for the breed is. He's a big beautiful black and tan with prized lineage.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

As for "why at six", It's as much the owner's wife as anything else. They have another dog that is a rescue, and there is some inner dynamic going on. It is my understanding that she wants to neuter the male to try and calm a sketchy female.


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

Let me help some people out. It would be best if people learned what I have from this thread, so we don't need to re-hash it.

1. Not every dog is a good candidate from papers and lineage alone.
2. Not every home is a good home or set up for breeding.
3. Not every owner is willing to go the extra mile to care for the safety and health of the pups or the mother.
4. Being a good GSD is not as simple as being a good pet around the house.
5. Two great examples can still have bad pups.

6. This forum contains people that(for love of the breed) will go out of their way to see that bad examples of the GSD aren't out there, and that people aren't just jumping into breeding without thinking about every detail and consequence BEFORE they happen.
8. These very same people are not just talking from whims, but real life experiences, and don't care to be taken lightly if their opinion differs from yours.
9. Breeding is best left to people who have experience in such matters for the sake of the breed, and the health of the mother/litter.
10. Nobody likes to be wrong (including myself).


Am I close?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

If you have been to the vet so often and run all the tests can't won't the vet tell you the right day and the right way to go about it, and to offer assistance if required??? I don't breed, but had an oops, let me tell you, boy was novice, bitch had been tried before,(by the breeder) and AI'd and vets said she was sterile, but on the day in question, they were passing at the door and he got her, 7 pups later. SO my 2 cents, they seem to know the right moves, and if they don't it wasn't meant to be. 

I KNOW real breeders will be horrified but like I said i don't breed and don't want to and never did.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

_I guess everything said to you needs to be perfect. I made the comment about folks losing a dog and getting another, that is why "I" said "I" would not sell to anyone around here, look at how many purebreds are in all the local pounds from Afton to Driggs to Jackson._
_ I talked about the airfare, at one time it was $65 to ship out of Jackson, now it is minimun of $250 from Idaho or Utah. Alot of folks are amazed and shocked at the price, I talked about it because it does cause some people to think twice about getting a puppy from far awy._
_ I have been wrong about alot of things during my many many years of being involved in dogs, but am so willing to learn and listen to what is being said to me, even to this day._
_ So, because I seem to have offended you in whatever way you have taken what I said or suggested, then trust me when I say I will not reply to you at all. So, you can rest assured you won't have to listen to me or my advice anymore. Be sure and listen to the advice of folks who applaud you for breeding, I am sure t hey are very successful breeders of many many years._
_ Remember Josh, I was quick to stand up for you when questioned about brucellois testing and you talked about deer and elk, not even realizing what the person was talking about when they asked if you had tested for brucelosis, and accused you of being a troll. Won't happen again._


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## 3jvj (Apr 13, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> _I guess everything said to you needs to be perfect. I made the comment about folks losing a dog and getting another, that is why "I" said "I" would not sell to anyone around here, look at how many purebreds are in all the local pounds from Afton to Driggs to Jackson._
> _ I talked about the airfare, at one time it was $65 to ship out of Jackson, now it is minimun of $250 from Idaho or Utah. Alot of folks are amazed and shocked at the price, I talked about it because it does cause some people to think twice about getting a puppy from far awy._
> _ I have been wrong about alot of things during my many many years of being involved in dogs, but am so willing to learn and listen to what is being said to me, even to this day._
> _ So, because I seem to have offended you in whatever way you have taken what I said or suggested, then trust me when I say I will not reply to you at all. So, you can rest assured you won't have to listen to me or my advice anymore. Be sure and listen to the advice of folks who applaud you for breeding, I am sure t hey are very successful breeders of many many years._
> _ Remember Josh, I was quick to stand up for you when questioned about brucellois testing and you talked about deer and elk, not even realizing what the person was talking about when they asked if you had tested for brucelosis, and accused you of being a troll. Won't happen again._


See number 10.

You haven't said anything at all about the venom in your posts, just how I reacted to it. Own it; it's yours. I didn't re-hash your words; I copied them. 

Am I to assume you didn't read my last post to you then, or that you don't care to acknowledge that you played your cards just as I did?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

This had gone far enough. I am locking it now.


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