# Jazmyn – 10 Month Old Teenage Brat! Advice Please! (VERY TEXT HEAVY!)



## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I haven’t done an update on Jazmyn in quite a while, and the events over the last few weeks warrant a thread! To start things off, she’s now just over 10 months old and as beautiful as ever (I’m sort of biased lol). We’ve been making progress with a few things, but have had some major setbacks and the development of extra teenage brattiness/poor behaviour. A few weeks ago, I said things were getting better; she was behaving in the house etc, well…that’s all gone down the toilet.

On the weekend of the 8th, my husband went away for a bachelor party. Jaz & I were left to ourselves. This ususally does not go so well, since I’m pretty certain she feels the order in our house goes Paul, Jazmyn, Lisa. Not good. Friday night’s walk was horrendous. She was a reactive pulling mess. Saturday was going pretty well, until she was interested in a beehive we found in our backyard, and as I was moving her away to prevent a sting, she thought it would be awesome to pull her mouthing/biting/barking at mom routine. To an outsider, they’d think I was being attacked. To us, it’s a combination of poor behaviour, aggressive play and lack of bite inhibition. She doesn’t bite down extremely hard, or even break skin, but she barks in excitement/frustration and uses her sharp canines to get a reaction from me (she’ll shove her open mouth onto my leg, or onto my hands/arms – hard enough that I occasionally bruise). *We are at a loss how to deal with this*. Ignoring doesn’t make her stop, walking away doesn’t do anything as she just waits for your return to continue, and yelling/reacting/collar correcting/grabbing her mouth/etc all ramp her up even more. The behaviour comes and goes. It usually follows being told a command that she doesn’t agree with, or being removed from a situation that she wants to be a part of (ie chasing bees, being told to get off the couch/bed, etc) This continued on and off to Sunday when my Husband came home. He watched her do it, and went to quickly grab her collar to stop her (wrong move on his part), and she moved out of his way and *he dislocated his shoulder!* He is now in a sling for about a month or so, so all of Jazmyn’s exercise, etc is coming from me now. (I’m gone from the house about 10-11 hours a day for work, he works from home). 

Fast forward a week, and she’s a complete teenage brat. Commands are apparently optional, ripping/eating things she never touched before are exciting, leash biting has become a new habit and she has become more demanding for meals (she is also now on raw food which happened JUST before he dislocated his shoulder). What is not helping is that for the first few days of my husband’s injury, his parents were helping (very thankful), but they don’t follow any of our rules, and Jazmyn got away with murder for a few days. Structure is everything in our house, and she takes advantage when it isn’t there. Monday night, my Husband had enough. He lost it. In that moment, he decided that she is losing EVERYTHING that she finds joyful and is going back to square one in an attempt to stop this insane behaviour. 

Here is what we have decided to do: 

1) Her crate is no longer in our bedroom, it’s in the living room. She no longer has the privilege to sleep where we sleep. – So far this is working out well. We’ve had no protesting, no whining and solid night sleeps.

2) We are amping up our NILIF. – We always make her sit before going through doors, or a down/stay while we prepare food and ask for a trick before she gets her meal, etc. This is being increased to the max. She must now sit & wait at doors to be released, sit & wait to be released from the crate, sit/down for much longer durations before feeding, do certain actions before play, affection, etc. She loves tug, so she will be asked to perform obedience commands in order to play and the rope will be her reward.

3) She is no longer allowed on the couch or bed. She actually technically right now, is not being allowed in the bedroom at all. Eventually, if behaviour improves, the couch may be welcoming again to her when she is asked but the bed/bedroom is off limits. We will allow her into the bedroom eventually, but will train her to go to her bed in the corner, and not on ours. 

4) She is spending MUCH more time in her crate in the living room during the day. She needs to learn that good behaviour is learned and comes from US. Her time out of the crate will be time spent exercising, training or engaging with us. When that cannot be done, back in the crate she goes. She will probably get small doses of free time in the living room but we’ll see how she behaves at first. This also is going to help my husband since his shoulder is movement restricted. 

5) I am getting up an hour earlier to walk her before work (usually my Husband does this). This is a significant challenge, as Jazmyn is quite reactive on walks (towards dogs), and is the worst when with me. We are pushing through. Walking at 5:15am prevents us from seeing most dogs. Walks will consist of walking, practicing loose leash (she likes to walk ahead of me & pull which is not okay), doing quick turns to work on focus and minor obedience. We’ll up this as we move forwards. 

In general, for a few days, we are ignoring her, in an attempt for her to WANT to behave and engage with us in a positive manner. Last night this resulted in a few barking sessions with us, followed by attempts at her biting routine, all with no reaction. She is LOST! Very confused at what this giant switch is all about and you can see the confusion all across her face. When we were moving her crate to the living room, you could see in her eyes that she instantly knew she crossed a line and sulked (looked adorable so sad, but I had to keep my mom face on) Eventually, she did just go and lay down, which of course is rewarded. 

This morning’s walk was a 75% success in my books. We left about 5:30, and initially she can be wild. The cold air is apparently exciting. We sit at the end of the driveway and off we go. The first 10 minutes are usually awful, she pulls A LOT. We did get into a more enjoyable rhythem though, just can be hard to maintain. Jazmyn also feels like she MUST poop on a walk, even if she really doesn’t have to go. When she has already gone #2 this morning (hubby couldn’t sleep with his shoulder at let her out at 4am) this results in a messy poop, and her first liquidy poop since being introduced to raw on the 10th of September. After she pooped, her walk the rest of the way home was much calmer. We didn’t run into any dogs, so we had a reaction free walk (except for pulling towards a rabbit, her favourite prey). 

Her reactivity is a completely other issue and one we are still working on. My blog in my signature is a better place to update that, since it is a whole thread on it’s own! 

For those that read this whole thing, THANK YOU!  Jaz is my first dog, and a challenging one at that, and I suppose that I’m wanting to make sure we are on the right track with this teenage nonsense. We love her to death, but man, I can totally understand why so many GSDs, between the ages of 10months to 2, are in shelters. It’s enough to drive a non-dedicated owner insane.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think the changes you've made will go a long way! I am curious why you don't try using a prong collar on your walks though. Also, do you have a flirt pole?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I was also going to ask what kind of collar you're walking her on. As far as the mouthing/biting thing, I've never tolerated that in my house, especially with a ten month old. I'd probably keep a leash on her when she's out of the crate attached to a prong collar (supervised obviously) and whenever she's mouthing she would be corrected. I see no reason as to why you shouldn't be correcting that kind of behavior.


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

I've subscribed to your thread as we have many of the same problems with a one year old.

The Halti head harness helps tremendously when we walk where I know there will be lots of strange dogs. I also have a no-pull harness that works fairly well, but the head halter gives more control. 

Isa, (my pup) is on a hypoallergenic diet so no treats for now. That has made our training harder, but before that I could sometimes keep her attention by having high value treats in my pocket...though with meeting other dogs that didn't help at all.

What mine does/did was bark so aggressively at strange dogs, the other owners seemed frightened by her (though if she was allowed to sniff the other dog, she immediately submitted). Sooooo (I may get flamed here) I purchased a bark collar that I put on her when I absolutely cannot have the barking, i.e. at my mom's retirement home where there are lots of little lap dogs around. It really seems to have helped with the barking to the point that even with collar off, she may pull some but rarely barks now at other dogs (just a little yip)

The impulse control things you are doing are great. Think that will help a lot. I know I do this with Isa like you are...at doors, exiting crate, meeting people, for toy play time, before retrieving balls, etc. My husband keeps saying she won't behave for him, but he never takes the time to do these things, so think she sees him at the bottom of the power structure, lol.

Good luck. Sounds like you are on the right path to me.

As far as the "biting", does she do this with your husband or just you? Just wondering as Isa never does it with me but she will with my husband. Not sure what that means, but it's interesting.


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## &RIGGS (Nov 30, 2011)

I have an 11 month old that I could write the exact same email. They share nearly every issue. I've tried many of the things suggested already (we do walk on a prong or a Halti - depending on the situation - which is very helpful) and I've seen some progress....however, the past 2 weeks have had me at the end of my rope!!

My boy was neutered 2 weeks ago. He managed to pop his stitches three days post-op and need a re-stitch (of course after hours at the e-vet). Since then he has had some swelling of his scrotum due to too much activity. It has been impossible to keep him subdued. He managed to rip up his entire plastic crate pan in an attempt to escape, which was very unexpected as he has always loved being in his crate. He has started jumping up on me and mouthing (hard!) which has never been a problem to this point. He has so much pent up energy, it's making him SO wild. Any time I take him outside, he barks up a storm at anybody walking/biking/standing near our property. Some days I feel like I'm going to scream!

I'm holding out hope, though, that as soon as I can get his butt back out there hiking, fetching, and otherwise exercising like he was pre-neuter that the obedient puppy that we all love will be back!

Just wanted to share my story and tell you that you are certainly not alone! I'm interested to hear the advice that is given to you since I'm sure it will be relevant to me as well.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I hope you don't mind - I enlarged the text in your original post. 

Are you in training classes? Have you tried a clicker with her (not saying that will fix what the issues are - but it's a good training tool to engage a dog)?

ETA - I think she does have inhibition, but needs some replacement behaviors and objects to reduce/eliminate mouthing so that she knows it's not appropriate.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Everything you're doing sounds good. I too am interested in what kind of collar she's walking on. My pup (15 months) walked fine on a flat buckle, but if he saw a dog he knew or something like that, he'd pull like crazy. I switched him to a prong. One or two corrections and it was over. I can still walk him on the flat, but my kids (12 and 14) can also walk him now on his prong without worry. 

Also, keep it up. It gets better. Rocket has matured (or the training consistency did it) and is a great dog that just needs a few edges polished. We're still working on recall from other dogs. Don't be afraid to correct _appropriately. _She's getting older and needs clear direction. You'll both emerge from this fine.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I would recommend a prong collar too, but you have to know how to fit and use it properly- check out the video on leerburg.com. You might try tethering her to you or your husband since he's home with her. He could tie her lead to his belt loop and when she's not in her kennel or out to potty or a play break, she has to go wherever he goes, chew or play with whatever he gives her. In other words, no freedom or decision making on her own. I did this once with a very badly behaved female gsd at that age and it worked wonders. It taught her the boundaries and rules of the house as well as self control. I had planned to do it for two weeks but there was tremendous improvement after just a few days.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I am not sure why the text is going a little crazy today...

We currently use a nylon flat collar with quick release. We also have a Smoochy Poochy buckle collar which isn’t leather, more of a synthetic material. I have thought about using a prong collar, but so far, my husband isn’t on board with it. He has however said that if I want to put on on her when I walk her, that is okay, but he won’t use it for his walks. He thinks we should be able to train her to walk without one. I do also worry that a prong may may her reactivity worse, as her nerves are the not the best. She is considered overexcited, overstimulated and has weak nerves from her trainer.

We have tried the easy walk harness, and it helps, but I feel like I lose some control if she is reactive on a walk. I am trying to see if I can clip the leash to the harness & her collar at the same time, just incase the harness fails (she’s extremely strong). I am going to ask her trainer if he feels a prong would be helpful or hurtful in our situation. My main concern is fitting the prong correctly & using it properly & appropriately.

We do not want to tolerate the mouthing biting anymore either. It’s become an extreme annoyance, especially as this has not stopped as shes outgrowing puppyhood. We have tried collar corrections, however they only seem to make her react worse and bite more, as if it excites her and becomes a game. She mostly “bites” and barks at me when I’m giving her commands she doesn’t agree with, or when she is trying to gain attention. She will do it with my husband, but not nearly as often, and a firm “leave it” from him is often enough to stop her. He often has to intervene when she is reacting this way with me for her to knock it off. When I stand my ground (and I often do), she will back off, but it can take what feels like forever. 

With Jazmyn’s dog reactivity, we do not allow her to meet other dogs. Our trainer does not yet feel comfortable allowing her to directly interact with one of his own dogs, in order to prevent a possible fight. She seems frightened by other dogs (was charged & nearly attacked as a 15 week old by an offleash Rottweiler on a walk). Her reactions are strong, however at our trainer’s property, she calmed much faster the other day, and the barking stopped within a few minutes. She can still me highly alert, nervous, anxious, excited when another dog is present though. At home, the barking does not stop. 

No, we are currently not enrolled in training classes. Jazmyn’s reactivity is difficult to have her in a room with other dogs, we are going to private training sessions though. We do use a clicker, and she responds well. Once item we’re currently working on is training her with the clicker to go to a mat, so that eventually, we can tie someone knocking on the door to her going to her mat, and waiting to be released before greeting people (she charges & barks at the door). 

She absolutely sees me at the bottom of the household, so with my husband’s injury, I am now her only souce for exercise, play, training, etc. We hopefully will see some changes, so my fingers are crossed!


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I should add there can be days when she does great loose leash walking on her flat collar, but those times are mostly with my husband. She & I will have periods during our walk where she does great, but pulling & being ahead of me seems to be something she likes to do.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I was going to suggest NILIF, but it looks like you're already doing it. For walks, I'd try either a prong collar or a head collar like a Halti. The headcollar should help both with control and with the mouthing behavior.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I thing a prong will help you so much, and if you're out at 5:30am, then I don't think the reactivity will matter at all. That's a nice quiet time, and once you get the pulling under control you'll probably look forward to that nice peaceful walk.

I asked about the flirt pole because that's a great teaching tool too, not just a fun toy. My puppy learned "Go on" (which is basically 'get out of my way, give me my space') and this has many uses, especially in the house when he's in a pestery mood, lol. Plus, your DH might be able to use it during the day, if his shoulder isn't too bad.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Sib is almost 3 years old now and I still can't walk her on a flat collar..I suspect she will use a prong collar for ever..(though I do try very often to walk her with a flat collar) )..She is just too strong for me and pulled me down 3 times now on a flat collar..Since I am too old to be falling down. it is she who has to suffer the consequences of her bad behavior...And i work with her every day!! She just is really bullheaded ...Good luck, I can sure feel your frustration!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have to get rid of the aw just a baby landshark puppy phase - which grows into , oh just a teenage brat .
Right from the start there should have been rules - I am not your toy - do not mouth me - end of story . A mother dog would have been very harsh with her , one good chomp and message driven home. 
A flat collar will encourage her opposition reflex where a dog pulls into - makes her into a sled dog champion . 
The temperament unfortunately is pretty well what is coming out of the kennel -- but you can still make something out of her to make her into a pleasant , respectful family companion.
Be consistent . You have drawn the line in the sand , made some parameters - no couch , no bed, stay with that , firm, no invitation or conditional , better for her mind - no confusion , black or white. You operate within the guidelines and life is sweet, go outside and mouth Lisa or bark or pull , life becomes difficult. She will figure out the comfort zone and operate within it , the path of least resistance.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Lisa,

You know what my experience, or lack of thereof, with dogs is. So I'm just speaking from personal experience and no greater knowledge or experience.

The biting used to be a BIG problem for Puppy as well. When she was 7 months old, it felt like it was happening ALL the time - on potty walks 20 meters from my building, on regular walks as I was crossing the street, etc. I tried a bunch of things on her: correcting her on flat, stepping on her leash right at the collar so she is forced into a down, holding her mouth shut, holding her by her collar and walking home so she really can't reach my legs, shoving a toy in, ignoring it and walking on, etc. I put on prong on her because I just COULD not walk her without bruising everywhere. It provided IMMEDIATE relief, which may be what you need for the time being if you're really having a hard time walking her. 

But what I found was, it didn't solve the issue completely, and just bandaged it. This is what our common trainer said it would do as well - put out the fire, but not solve the issue. Nowadays, it is REALLY much better. She only really thinks about this behavior when she is already really tired but I am still going, when she is really amped up in training/play and I stop, or when I have to pry something away from her mouth. In these incidences, she gives a lot more warning than she did as a puppy, which gives me the opportunity to ask for alternative behaviours and train her. I usually ask for a sit, which she will comply with and snap out of her mode. But if she resumes when I release her, I will tie her to the nearest object and put myself out of her range or leave the yard if we're home. I will try approaching her after a few seconds, and if she's still going, I'd leave again. Rinse and repeat until she is calmer. 

I THINK this is her being over stimulated/tired, and not knowing what to do any more. My trainers that I go to for reactivity suggested I try the relaxation protocol on her to help with both reactivity work and with the biting-when-she's-amped-up-and-we're-training. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is solving my problem either, but it is working thus far. 

I will say though, when I used a prong, I had 2 collars on her at all times and walked with 2 leashes because I didn't want her to react and associate the prong correction with another dog.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone!

We had initial rules with regards to her biting. We'd redirect, we tried the yelping, we tried ignoring, we tried saying no. Her strongest command used to be "Leave It" and she'd stop, but even that now she ignores. A correction only instigates her further, so our best current method is a "No" or a "Leave It", and if she chooses not to listen we up & walk away. We also ignored last night, and that sent her for a loop (she was expecting a reaction, even if it was negative).

That's our main goal Carmen. She won't be a dog that has great nerves or that can be in any situation at any time. We want her to be a behaved, loving, respectful member of our family. Our line is definitely drawn, and we're both on the same page so consistency will be key. We're also discussing the new rules with my husband's parents tonight (we live in the basement apartment of their home) to make sure everyone is following the new boundaries.

She did not like the new rules yesterday at all, but did obey everything was asked of her. It took me nearly 30 minutes to feed her (she kept breaking her down stay - she is like a drug addict to Carmen's Sh-Emp Oil) as her confusion level was through the roof.

Marshies - Thankfully, Jazmyn does not bite me on walks, or really when we are training. She typically does this when we are in our house/yard. She does it occasionally when we put on her collar/leash (she has always been sensitive about this area, we are training & rewarding for it), when I take her away from something she wants (like off the couch), or when I'm not engaging in play with her (her way to trying to get my attention). She is also much worse in the evenings when she is tired, and of course, combine this with excitement from me coming home from work and you have a recipe for disaster.

She's a smart girl, a drama queen & and a PITA, but the sweet girl is in there that just needs boundaries and guidance in order to come out. Our pretty work in progress lol.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

About loose leash walking:

If Puppy pulls on walks, she is that much more likely to be reactive because it amps her up. I've tried a number of ways of training loose-leash walking, and have experienced the most success with that I am doing right now:

-practice the Silky Leash. Google this for more details.
-brief ball play or flirt pole in yard before going on a leashed walk to blow off some steam accumulated from being alone while I was at work/school
-On walks, I would mark her for being close to my legs. (My old criterion was to have her offer eye contact, which she would readily do in low distraction environments, but was too hard for her in a busier environment. ) If she were to pull ahead and reach end of the leash, I wait for her to offer eye contact, mark eye contact with a YES, and continue walking. Some mark for dog returning, but with her, I've found that if I don't have eye contact, she'll just resume the pulling crazies and do the motion of coming back to me. 
-I've also used a no-pull harness just to help manage things, but didn't really like it. I had the Freedom Harness.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The prong or halti or whatever is just a tool. Its the mindset in which you apply the tool that makes the difference. Based on what your saying I would put her on a prong asap, but only after researching the proper way to fit and correct with it. If your husband has an issue with it, explain to him that it is actually better for the dogs neck, less pressure needs to be applied to issue a correction or control bad behaviour and the message is much clearer. Also generally less correction need to be applied overall if your using a prong.
The biting, barking and jumping when you correct her is a solid indication that she has 0 respect for you. NILF will help but your ability to discipline her properly is 90% of the battle in that regard. Its very simple to send a clear message about who runs the show. You need to be consistent and firm in your corrections. No negotiation, no compromise, its your way or the highway. Her anxiety around other dogs will probably decrease (not completely) when you take a more consistent leadership role. 

last but not least you stated that you have a trainer working with her. thats great. Im just curious why you are still having these problems on the walk. Im assuming the first thing a trainer should do is ensure the walk ritual is being done properly. The walk is the key. 
Can your trainer walk your dog and have her well under control?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The biting, barking and jumping when you correct her is a solid indication that she has 0 respect for you. NILF will help but your ability to discipline her properly is 90% of the battle in that regard. Its very simple to send a clear message about who runs the show. You need to be consistent and firm in your corrections. No negotiation, no compromise, its your way or the highway. Her anxiety around other dogs will probably decrease (not completely) when you take a more consistent leadership role.


This and what Carmspack is so true. Your pup has no clear cut limits and no consequences for her behavior so she's making up her own rules. By giving her rules, she will find that she is not in charge and will actually calm down and be significantly more comfortable in public because she will feel she can depend on you for guidance. 

There is no such thing as a teenage stage and your pup is not a brat. Blaming the dog for your lack of training is just an excuse. It's the lack of proper training that's causing most of your problems. If your new trainer isn't helping you put your foot down, then you need to find a new one.

I can guarantee you that the biting and barking at me would stop right now, if this were my dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

You all are saying the dog needs effective corrections, and I agree. However, OP has stated that the dog loads on corrections. This will no doubt make effective corrections VERY difficult for her. I have seen dogs like this, the type that will come up your arm for a correction, and to me, that does not look fun or easy to work with. I have owned dogs that would amp up when corrected, and it's very tricky to extinguish unwanted behaviors using corrections.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I completely agree that it is our training. Jazmyn is trying to find her own way of dealing with things where she feels we are lacking. This is why we have created her new rules & boundaries that we are both following. I've personally never owned a dog, so all of this is new to me, so it's a learning curve for both Jaz & I.

Since this thread started, I have emailed our trainer about the prong collar. Waiting for a response on his opinion to ensure it doesn't affect what we are working towards with Jaz. I am also going to talk with him and see if he may be willing to come to our house for a session. She doesn't behave on his property the way she does on our residential streets, so an at home session may be a good idea.

We have our private trainer primarily for our issues with Jazmyn's dog reactivity. He is able to provide us with a stable environment, with stable dogs to train around. A lot of our issues, especially on our evening walks, stem from Jaz being overstimulated and being highly reactive towards dogs. We cannot avoid dogs on our night walks (our neighbourhood is full of small, uncontrolled dogs), so desensitizing her and US learning better handling techniques is key.

We are also working on respect and building other obsessions for Jaz to focus on besides other dogs. She does have ZERO respect for me, so while this will be difficult, my husband's injury is likely a blessing in disguise so that Jazmyn is forced to look at me for all things good in her life.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

*Lisa* said:


> Thanks everyone!
> 
> We had initial rules with regards to her biting. We'd redirect, we tried the yelping, we tried ignoring, we tried saying no. Her strongest command used to be "Leave It" and she'd stop, but even that now she ignores. A correction only instigates her further, so our best current method is a "No" or a "Leave It", and if she chooses not to listen we up & walk away. We also ignored last night, and that sent her for a loop (she was expecting a reaction, even if it was negative).
> 
> ...


I don't think you're correcting her clearly enough. She needs to know what a 'real' correction feels like. Falon on this forum with Kastle has an excellent video that demonstrated a proper correction on a prong collar. She needs to learn some respect and you can't baby your way around it when she's now 10 months old. You won't hurt her.

I agree that the other issues may just fall into place once you gain some respect.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lisa's dog will work out with time and consistent , firm and fair limits , with good praise and a better bond . Big learning curve -- dog will still have issues but they can be managed . Her trainer is very good . I would have that dog crated . When she comes out she goes immediately on line , even in the house, and with perfect respectfull position expected all the time. Ten minutes at a time . Then back in . In and out the entire time. Look forward to coming out and being on line .


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Lisa's dog will work out with time and consistent , firm and fair limits , with good praise and a better bond . Big learning curve -- dog will still have issues but they can be managed . Her trainer is very good . I would have that dog crated . When she comes out she goes immediately on line , even in the house, and with perfect respectfull position expected all the time. Ten minutes at a time . Then back in . In and out the entire time. Look forward to coming out and being on line .


This is what I have done with Puppy as well. Super helpful.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Personally, I think a prong collar would be a big mistake with this pup. 

There may not be a teenage stage, but I guaranty that if you continue as you are with no prong collar, moderate exercise, and enforcing the rules, a year from now you will read this post and say WOW. 

I agree that a prong collar can make her more reactive. It is just a tool, and if you use it properly and have a good solid temperament, it can work wonders. I do not think it is right for the dog you have. That is just my opinion.

I have a 10 month old that I have had back for several months now, and she has her moments to be sure. We just flunked our CGC test yesterday with her, but I did not expect to pass, and we missed on just the supervised separation, so she has come a long way in a couple of months. 

You have having the most trouble with her, so really, everything, including exercise should be coming from you. Every good thing. Being gone for ten hours a day means your husband and his dislocated shoulder will have to let her out once or twice a day, but feeding, training, and walks should really come from you, and I think that getting up an hour early to give her a walk in the morning is a significant mark of your commitment to this dog. 

I want to suggest something else, I think someone else mentioned it, do about 15 minutes of fetch in the back yard before your walks. And, put a muzzle or a head halter on her and walk her for at least 30 minutes after work. Try not to get close to other dogs, but if one does come up, say LEAVE IT and walk firmly onward. Do not worry about apologizing to the other owner (you shouldn't anyway, but) unless your dog actually connects. But if you have a head halter or a muzzle on the dog, she should not be able to do damage and you will have more control. 

Don't play her games. Do not give her a command that she can ignore. If she is not on leash, do not say COME. If you cannot get her to come in at all, only let her out with a leash or long line connected.

Do not repeat commands. It should not be: 
" Come. 
Jazzy, COME. 
Come on girl.
COME!
*JAZZY GET YOUR BUTT IN THIS HOUSE NOW!!!*"

Nope that is all wrong. 

Get her attention by calling her name. 

"Jazzy!"

show her something delectable, a hunk of cheese maybe, a bone and say "Come."

Do not shout it, say it firmly with no question at the end of it. 

If she ignores or does not come, give a tug on the long line and say "NOW!" in a strong voice, not shouting, but firm and low. If she comes, give her the treat, don't be stingy at this point, a come is a come. If she doesn't come, don't real her in, but take a good hold of the line, and walk out to her and then walk back with her and make her sit where you were. I would not treat at this point. But I would not accept non-compliance. 

I do not like that you are being bruised by her. I think you need to use a sharp NO! or EH! and limit access to easy targets like hands. If you wrestle or fight with her, you will ramp her up. So take the lead and lead her off. Do not fight, stand up straight, and use your voice to let her know what you want. I use EH! SETTLE, and EH! OFF for jumping or mouthing, and sometimes EH! NO BITE. Fold your arms across your chest and look at her, use a stern voice, stay calm, and do not yell or get angry. 

I disagree wholeheartedly with the thing about how a dog would treat such a pup. For one thing, these people who are saying this are dealing with working line dogs, and maybe they are tougher with their pups than American line dogs, and GSL dogs. I really don't know that, but I have NEVER had a bitch act that way to a pup, and I have bitches with pups up beyond six months at times. Furthermore, you are NOT a dog, or this pup's mother. The puppy knows that. You cannot possibly manage this pup the way a bitch would manage her puppy. Not happening and it is ridiculous to try. 

Frankly, I think physical corrections in this case will do more harm than good. MANAGE this puppy. Don't order her off the couch, limit her access to the couch. 

I personally think a lot of crate time is not good for a puppy. If at all possible, put up a small kennel in the basement, garage or back yard, and leave the dog in there rather. If you can't do that, get some extra-tall baby gates, and put her in a puppy proof room with the door open and a baby gate between them. This gate should be at least 39 inches tall -- taller if you can find it, and it should not be a square pattern, but long rails, Square or diamond shapes pups will climb. Be prepared to use a strong correction if she ever tries to go over it, but my girls pretty much respect the baby gates and do not try to jump over them. 

Creating a bond with your dog is done through training. Training in anything, obedience is a good starting place, but tricks are fine, agility is good too, herding can be great as well. 

Training will be a whole lot easier if the pent up energy your puppy has is released prior. I mean the dog should not be falling asleep when you train her, but having a bit of a workout prior to a training session can give you and her a better chance of focussing. Keep training light, fun, and quit when she still wants more. 5-15 minutes a day. So your getting up an hour early starts with an all our run back and fourth for 10 minutes, then a 40 mintues walk and then 5-7 minutes of sits, and downs, and stays, and then 2-3 minutes of rubbing her all over, playing with her ears, playing with her paws, tail, and rubbing her belly, telling her what a good girl she is. 

Take her in, feed her and put her in her place. Limit access to where you don't want her to be. 

In the evening, do the run and fetch thing to work off a bit of energy, 15-30 minutes, then put a basket muzzle on her, and go for a walk. If she pulls plant your feet and stop. Do not move without a loose leash, or quickly turn and go the other direction. Don't let her pull you around. Again if she reacts toward another dog, just keep on walking, say EH! LEAVE IT, and keep moving. The muzzle will help YOU. You will be less concerned about what she will do, and by relaxing she might reduce her reactivity. Either way, as she realizes that you are not going to let her bark and lunge and eat the other dog, she will get over it. 

Trust me that 12 months from now, she will be very different. Raising puppies is not easy. It requires patience, management, and commitment. It does not require a prong collar, strong physical corrections, yelling, or acting like a dog.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Would a martingale be helpful in our walks? I know it wouldn't offer a correction like a prong would.

Selzer, you touched on one of my main concerns with the prong collar & Jazmyn. Her temperament is not solid. I worry that the use of a prong may damage what bond we have, and I don't want to take too many steps backwards. She can be fearful of things (but recovers very quickly - i.e she startles when she bumps into her exercise pen, but will go back to normal right away and is okay to check out the pen), she barks at noises she hears upstairs so I know she is uneasy and nervous, she definitely can be anxious and gets WAY overexcited about things.

The great thing about Jazmyn is that when she is in the zone, and wants to train with me, she does FANTASTIC! I'm going to update my blog about her reactivity, but I personally thought she did great 2 weeks ago at our trainers, and showed a much faster recovery time with his GSD present. Also, when she knows its obedience/trick time, she's ready to go. She has great focus, learns quickly and wants to please. She caught onto the concept of laying on her special mat within about 10 minutes (I marked it with a clicker when she'd touch the mat, then made it difficult and had her sit on it, and now she knows to lay down). We're working on this so that when someone knocks on the door, she knows KNOCK = MAT and she doesn't get up until released.

I think my best option may be to invest in a good leather collar with a buckle closure. This won't slip and loosen as we walk. I also need to find a good leash. We currently have a 2 ft leather leash and a 6 ft nylon. I like the length of the nylon for general walking, but hate that it burns my hands. It also is too much length for when she is reacting.

Side note: When on walks, she is not allowed to greet other dogs. Our goal is to ignore. We will cross the road to give people and people with dogs space. She doesn't bark at people anymore (usually), but may still lunge towards them in excitement. With dogs, we are not yet 100% sure it is excitement, so we don't allow any possible interaction & aggression.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's an excellent post, selzer. But why do you believe that the prong would be the wrong choice? Is it because of the reactivity, or something else? Please humor me, I'm trying to learn something, lol.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

*Lisa* said:


> Would a martingale be helpful in our walks? I know it wouldn't offer a correction like a prong would.
> 
> Selzer, you touched on one of my main concerns with the prong collar & Jazmyn. Her temperament is not solid. I worry that the use of a prong may damage what bond we have, and I don't want to take too many steps backwards. She can be fearful of things (but recovers very quickly - i.e she startles when she bumps into her exercise pen, but will go back to normal right away and is okay to check out the pen), she barks at noises she hears upstairs so I know she is uneasy and nervous, she definitely can be anxious and gets WAY overexcited about things.
> 
> ...



I use leashes from k9noz, and I love them. I find leather and nylon to be difficult to use, and have found biothane to be best of both worlds.

I use a martingale collar on Puppy it is more reliable than a buckle collar, but it is not at all effective at corrections. Mine is about 1.5 inches thick, and I treat it like a flat collar. Puppy responds to tugs on this for minor things, like sniffing through places that she's now allowed to in the house, but it would never work to correct her for biting.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

crate , super sized great dane , x - pen , small enclosure within room doesn't matter , the meaning is intended as constructive confinement .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"disagree wholeheartedly with the thing about how a dog would treat such a pup. For one thing, these people who are saying this are dealing with working line dogs, and maybe they are tougher with their pups than American line dogs, and GSL dogs."
Not me -- tough has NOTHING to do with it whatsoever -- Lisa did you ever ever ever see Mike tough with any of the dogs, or pups. A good trainer , a knowledgable breeder has to be highly adaptive to each and every type of temperament , sensitivity or pig-headed thing that comes up and get the dog on side with you to offer correct behaviour. Working show american - -- ddr , czech - had them all . You have to respect the capabilities and limitations of each dog as an individual. Sometimes it takes the patience of Job , but you wait , and then "mark" the correct response - keep reinforcing the correct response. 
What you don't do is indulge a pup behaviour that is cute at the moment thinking it is part of a phase - and then change the rules when it hurts or gets annoying.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

No, Mike is very fair with his dogs and is being a great leader for Nick.
The only time he was "tough" on Jazmyn was when he offered her a serious correction for pulling her reactivity nonsense towards his dogs. He warned us, we consented, and he corrected. After that, her reactions at his place were decreased and she was more easily handled.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

You have gotten a lot of good advice here. I've enjoyed reading the posts. I only have one thing to add that I didn't see mentioned, although I may have missed it. Not only do you all have to be on the same page with her training it must happen the instant she does something. 

My grown daughter was recently visiting and Ivan was very excited to see her. He was doing very good sitting trying to be such a good boy but finally he just had to jump. All three of us(myself, my husband and my daughter) instantly No jumps! Same command, same time. Boy Ivan sure got the message, his behind was instantly planted back on the ground. At that point it was instand good sit Ivan again from all three. It has to be that quick, that fast and you all have to be using the same command. For the biting it would be no bites, then shove a toy into his mouth so he can't bite again. Instant and consistant. Same command, same way, right away, every single time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> That's an excellent post, selzer. But why do you believe that the prong would be the wrong choice? Is it because of the reactivity, or something else? Please humor me, I'm trying to learn something, lol.


The more I read by the OP, the more I think a prong collar is the wrong choice. A prong collar is great for dogs with decent temperaments, who can take a correction, and accept it. The prong collar is a correction collar. The dog learns that if he goes too far it bites into his neck and makes things uncomfortable, used that way, it is self-correcting, and a dog with ok nerves will learn quickly the boundaries he has with respect to the collar. They will learn not to pull. 

Used as a correction device, the human on the other side of the leash can give a pop when the dog does something that the owner does not want. A dog with a decent temperament will be able to manage that just fine, and learn what not to do. He may even respect the person with the leash. I do find in classes that many people who rely on these collars do have trouble when the collar needs to be removed for a specific test. The dog gets collar smart, and will do what he must so long as it is on, and forget it if it is off. 

For the dog that is nervous, has some fear issues, or who is soft, these corrections can shut the dog down -- even the self-correcting action when used can shut the dog down. No learning, no socialization, no growth happens when a dog is shut down. It can break a young dog's spirit. A dog who is soft, does not mean that they are not puppy playful, they can be. But they can have their spirit broken. Who wants to see a dog cringe and tuck their tail when they see them, or worse, roll over and show their stomach and pee? 

You cannot demand respect with a soft dog. You really have to earn it. 

You earn it with positive training, acting like a leader -- which is more about not losing your cool, not acting crazy or unpredictable, and loving the dog you have, instead of trying to make the dog into something it cannot possibly do, or reasonably manage. 

I am not saying that you should allow the dog to climb all over you, but you have to recognize that sometimes that climbing on you is a signal that the dog is really not confident about what is happening right now. Giving a correction with a prong collar isn't going to build the dog's confidence. 

There is an introvert-extrovert scale they like to range people on. People see people who are on the extreme introvert side as painfully shy. And they tend to think that people should be extroverts. People are what they are, but they can move to be more in the middle. They can become more extroverted in situations. Making a person who is extremely introverted the center of attention, or giving them a job that will require them to be extroverted such as a lead salesperson in a trade show, it is cruel, it will set them up for failure and not cause them to grow. 

A soft dog and a shy dog are not one and the same, but I think that taking a soft dog and bullying it to earn respect will be counterproductive. When you have, as the OP has done, found the secret to getting the dog to want to please you, you can work with this dog, you can move way beyond anywhere that collar pops will take you. 

The OP feels that a prong collar is not a good idea with this dog, and I agree with her. It is not the right tool for every dog. She has found a way to work with the dog, it has focus. She needs to work hard to engage this dog when it is doing what she wants, praise, treat, play, rubs. But stop while the pup wants more. And in this way, she will get more and more and more out of her puppy. 

Her puppy will grow up, and some of these puppy behaviors will subside just with the passing of months. The mouthing and the jumping on her can be puppy spirits, it can also be heightened insecurity. She can break the pup of bad habits, or she can ignore them and work on what this puppy does good. I think she will improve the bond that way.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I think my best option may be to invest in a good leather collar with a buckle closure. This won't slip and loosen as we walk. I also need to find a good leash. We currently have a 2 ft leather leash and a 6 ft nylon. I like the length of the nylon for general walking, but hate that it burns my hands. It also is too much length for when she is reacting.

Lisa, I have a leash that I use that is great for walking and handling a puller. It is from a company called Bold Lead Designs. They make custom collars and leashes as well as service dog equipment. I have inserted a picture of the leash I use. You can custom order the length and the weight (thickness) of the leash. It is pricey, but it will last you forever. 
I have found that I get a better grip on the leash with the knots to hold onto, plus it's a nice looking leash.









Good luck with Jazymn and keep up the good work!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

*Lisa* said:


> N
> The only time he was "tough" on Jazmyn was when he offered her a serious correction for pulling her reactivity nonsense towards his dogs. He warned us, we consented, and he corrected. After that, her reactions at his place were decreased and she was more easily handled.


Interesting... what was used for the correction and how was it applied? Did she react to the correction by amping up, or did she "absorb" it and calm down immediately?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Bear GSD said:


> Lisa, I have a leash that I use that is great for walking and handling a puller. It is from a company called Bold Lead Designs. They make custom collars and leashes as well as service dog equipment. I have inserted a picture of the leash I use. You can custom order the length and the weight (thickness) of the leash. It is pricey, but it will last you forever.
> I have found that I get a better grip on the leash with the knots to hold onto, plus it's a nice looking leash.
> 
> View attachment 20925
> ...


That is a nice leash, drool... :laugh: I have long leather ones like that but they are not as nice as yours.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Interesting... what was used for the correction and how was it applied? Did she react to the correction by amping up, or did she "absorb" it and calm down immediately?


Mike used himself as the correction, and he applied a downward force to her back/side. It was not intended to hurt her, but rather to startle her and to make her understand that her behaviour was WRONG. Collar corrections were being ignored. He recommended that we d not do this correction at home, not only to prevent us getting bit, because he did not want us to jeopardize building a bond. He wanted to keep the negative association with him initially, and keep us as the safe people. This was only for her assessment (Jaz likes Mike, his property and his yummy treats!)

She actually did not amp up. She was very startled and went into avoidance mode with Mike and the dogs. She would come back to the fence and wasn't scared of Mike, and barked with less intensity at the dogs (you could see her thinking through the process to find out how to avoid a correction), to the point where she didn't react at all after a long period of time (our assessment was nearly 2.5 hours)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So did he smack your dog's butt, or did he try to push her into a sit? I don't know how I would take either action with my puppy. 

My puppy should expect that I will protect her, and not put her into situations where she will be hurt. 

The problem with physical punishemnt is that it has to be significant so the dog knows you are not playing. Then the dog has a choice to make, either to submit or to fight you. If you are making punishing, but not to create pain, then it will be nagging. And just like repeated commands becomes nagging, dogs will totally ignore nagging until it gets to a level of intensity that the dog realizes you mean business. By then you are shouting, or darn near abusing your dog. Why do we want to go there? 

Physical corrections are more like putting the dog into the position you asked for. The dog does not sit, so instead of repeating the command only louder, you bend down and curve the back legs into the position, etc. A physical correction might be a tug on the line after the COME command did not work, and then going and getting the dog and bringing the dog to where you want the dog. A physical correction might be rapidly changing directions, so the dog that is out in left field watching something that isn't his business, and not healing will get surprised by the abrupt action, the leash pulling, etc. 

Leash pops start to go over to punishment. Punishment can work. People have been using punishment since time began. Some people would rather trust a dog that knows he will knock the stuffings out of it if it does not comply with a command; while others would rather trust a dog that knows that good things come to those who do what their special person tells them. 

Now, my trainers have trained the sit when you halt when healing, by telling the dog to sit every time you come to a halt. First you help the dog sit and tell the dog to sit. Then as training moves on, you just tell the dog to sit, and then you expect the dog to sit, give him a chance, and then smack the but -- not to hurt the dog, but to let the dog know he should have sat. I don't generally do that. Instead, I will look at the dog and most of the time, you can see the dog think "oh yeah, I'm supposed to sit, oops." And they sit on their own, then you move on. With or without the smack on the butt they will sit every single time you stop, without being told if you train it. 

I guess I am just not expert enough to be certain without a shadow of a doubt that I trained my dog properly so that he should do something perfectly regardless of the circumstances and immediately. So I prefer not to use punishment. Punishment should only be if those conditions are met, unless by using some form of strong punishment, you can provide such an aversion to something that your dog is safer because of it. I am thinking about chasing deer or snakes. 

I prefer to set up a dog to succeed and then praise the dog for doing so, rather than setting a dog up to fail and punishing the dog to for doing so. If your training methods are compulsory, then you will have to do the latter, you will have to proof the dog, and the way to do that is to set the dog up to fail and punish him for failing. If your training methods are more positive, you proof the dog when the dog is ready -- usually well after a compulsion trained dog would be proofed, and if the dog fails you just set the dog in place again, and the absence of a reward, or redoing the task is enough that the dog realizes he did not do the right thing. Dogs are actually very smart. They can figure out how to get their cookie, or a word of praise, some of them a lot quicker than they can figure out how to avoid a clubbing. 

One person needs to yell to get a dog to pay attention, another needs to yank and crack, while another can just lower the voice a little and the dog responds immediately. 

I think that we set ourselves up with our dogs and teach them at what point they should do what we want. If we get loud they will require that, if we do leash pops, yank and crank, they will need that. If we use our voice, our normal voice give commands only that we can enforce immediately, do not repeat commands, do not get loud, do not strike the animal, use praise lightly, moderately, or lavishly as actions warrant, we will build a bond of trust between both dog and owner that will make them a team, reduce anxiety, understand limits, etc. 

No, I really don't want someone punishing my dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sometimes a dog is so much in a different zone that you have to get their attention first, stop the hysterics. You have seen it dozens of times on youtubeys on this forum with dogs being introduced to herding , for the herding instinct test. The dog goes all glaze eyed and fixated on giving wild chase to some sheep . To prevent injury and get situation under control the instructor will take a corn broom or rake and "touch" the dog , momentarily stopping its obsessive rush , same with zoning out and barking wildly impervious to voice , and had leash been used the dog may have amped up. Flick of leash end on rear, brush with hand - no harm --


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Lisa* said:


> Mike used himself as the correction, and he applied a downward force to her back/side. It was not intended to hurt her, but rather to startle her and to make her understand that her behaviour was WRONG. Collar corrections were being ignored. He recommended that we d not do this correction at home, not only to prevent us getting bit, because he did not want us to jeopardize building a bond. He wanted to keep the negative association with him initially, and keep us as the safe people. This was only for her assessment (Jaz likes Mike, his property and his yummy treats!)
> 
> She actually did not amp up. She was very startled and went into avoidance mode with Mike and the dogs. She would come back to the fence and wasn't scared of Mike, and barked with less intensity at the dogs (you could see her thinking through the process to find out how to avoid a correction), to the point where she didn't react at all after a long period of time (our assessment was nearly 2.5 hours)


I am not good with dog reactivity. However, I am very comfortable with reasonably people aggressive dogs (ones that I can read), which is a similar thing. 

What I have done is _not_ to make me more scary than the person or thing they are afraid of to control their behavior, because that is only going to work as long as:
a. I am there
b. I am willing to escalate how scary I am to do my dog 

So I am also not so willing to let someone else do this either. 

This is just an offshoot to the other things you are trying to control/work with and I wanted to comment on how a lot of time stopping a behavior doesn't mean the underlying cause isn't there and can pop out at any time. I would rather take the time (lots of times longer) to work at the root cause, understanding limitations of poor temperament, so that my dog is much more trustworthy and works with me, looks to me, when there is a behavioral trigger. 

I think sometimes the behaviors we see are simply pure agitation with us for not making things clear. You don't necessarily have to use physical corrections to make things clear. I am not saying I am purely positive, because I use my voice a lot to communicate boundaries. But lots of times we miss the opportunities to reward and reinforce what we want to see because we are so busy trying to stop what we don't.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think sometimes the behaviors we see are simply pure agitation with us for not making things clear. You don't necessarily have to use physical corrections to make things clear. I am not saying I am purely positive, because I use my voice a lot to communicate boundaries. But lots of times we miss the opportunities to reward and reinforce what we want to see because we are so busy trying to stop what we don't.


THAT paragraph can't be looked at or remembered enough! It's perfectly said and the reason MANY of us go astray in our traiing. 

Looking for the bad to corrrect is sometime easier and more obvious then finding the good and rewarding it. But just having a 'bad' dog trained with corrections is not the best road for most of our dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The OP must be thoroughly confused by now.

First people say the dog needs effective corrections, now people are saying "don't use punishment".

It's interesting that a smack on the butt by the trainer caused the dog to snap out of it, while collar corrections were ignored. I understand that the trainer emphasized that the OP NOT do this at home. It was part of an evaluation, not a training session.

Sometimes a good swat gets the attention, like slapping a hysterical person. "Thanks, I needed that." With a knowledgable and experienced trainer, I have no problem with it. The problem arises with correcting a dog that loads on corrections, combined with a relatively inexperienced owner. The OP knows this.

It's an interesting problem, and I'll be interested to see how the dog progresses over time, what works, what doesn't. 

The old-time methods of training used a lot of corrections, pressure, and punishment; dogs were trained, they performed and obeyed, and I'm sure that they were not ruined by it. Nowadays the "positive" crowd tells everyone that you must never hurt your dog, lest the poor baby's feelings get injured and they think you are mean and unsafe and unstrustworthy. I am not sure I buy that, especially with a hard, bull-headed dog that ignores you. Dogs hurt each other all the time, and they do not fear or despise each other--most social species, including dogs, will tend to try harder to repair the relationship.

There was a rather famous study in monkeys, I believe in the 1940s, which paired a baby monkey with surrogate "mothers" made of wire and fabric. There were several different experiments, but the one that relates to this subject involved a "mother" that would "abuse" her baby by shooting spikes out of her body (not sharp to injure, just uncomfortable to cuddle with) and things like that. You'd think the baby would learn to avoid the mother, however, it kept coming back, and would show behaviors like cooing, grooming, flirting, etc. trying to appease the "abusive" mother and fix the relationship. 

Now, dogs aren't monkeys, and I'm not suggesting that we ritually cause pain or abuse to our dogs to get them in line. I'm only questioning the idea that one well-placed correction is going to ruin the relationship between dog and handler. For a very soft dog, maybe. But for a hard, working breed that ignores the handler's "positive" attempts to extinguish certain behaviors, I don't see how one well-timed moment of pain is going to destroy a relationship that is 99.9% positive.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

My breeder came out once when Rocket was about that same age. This was at the beginning of his horse-barking. Rocket was exactly as Carmen described--in this zone, not barking steadily but completely fixated and rather glazed over as well. My breeder snuck behind him in a very fast move and "flanked" him---meaning he gave him a slight pinch to the webbing/cartilage area right where his groin/thigh was. Completely startled him and took him out of the fixation zone. For the rest of the visit he did not go near the horses. If I were as practiced as he, I would've been able to use it maybe only once or twice more at the most and Rocket would've been done. We had to go a slightly different route to successfully end it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know the trainer very well - trust him with my best dogs , and I know that he has no love for the yank and pull and unfairly timed rough shod "trainers" and that he attends university level seminars on behaviour at Guelph and that he even funds all of his boarding facility staff to attend also, covering the expense and wages so that his staff is sophisticated in handling the oh so many problem dogs that are part of the business. 
Had the dog been allowed to continue to bark and bark and bark at the dogs THIS in its self would have become highly satisfying to the dog , not extinquishing the behaviour but actually fortifying it. PLUS it would have created a response from the dogs being barked at , that would have been undesirable and habit . 
The handler did not correct the dog -- the trainer did thereby sparing any fracture in their relationship , which needs some changes anyway. One pop on the rear - dog stops - huh?, dog praised, and let's get on with it - positive , praise, work praise, work praise. The dog looks forward to going out and training -- dogs like harmony - like no confusion . 
This is the genetics of the dog - this I know having seen generations at trials , other owners, people who bring dogs out for me to see (and then I refer), people I meet on the street who stop to ask questions . The sooner the dog can settle into appropriate behaviour THE BETTER IT IS FOR THE DOG. No need to prolong the emotional turmoil the handler has taking the dog out , or not , and fearing encounters with other dogs in the environment. You don't think the dog can't sense this? You don't think there is potential for many , poor , naggy corrections from a person who is over her head in this regard, great owner - wants the best for and from her dog .

If you have a pup in the room and it goes behind the couch and is about to chew on a electrical cord you are not going to stand by and wait for that split second perfect moment to bribe it with a cookie thereby changing the course of action -- you are going to take your slipper and hurl it close to the dog to break its focus to have it stop immediately. 
Pain has nothing to do with it - it is the element of surprise. No different than a well timed e-collar correction - (which I don't use - but then I train MY dogs and I select MY dogs and I select for genetic obedience because I like it and the potential are great and the dogs are easy and a pleasure) .


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Haha thanks Freestep! This can be confusing! LOL A dog that is nervous/anxious/overstimulated, yet can take a correction & recover depending on who is giving that correction. My corrections can load her, however from a trained, experienced person the correction is absorbed and understood.

Carmen explained it how I should have (I was on the iPad last night and in a rush). Mike wanted to correct her for 2 reasons. First, to break her out of her "zone" and Second, to show her the behaviour was wrong. This correction was done during her behaviour assessment to see how she would respond to such a correction, and not as a training session for my husband & I to learn to do on our own.

When Jazmyn reacts, she is _intensely_ focuses on the other dog. Usually, there is no breaking her focus. Treats, jumping up & down, and I swear running by her on fire, would not break that intensity without actual contact with her. Jaz snapped out of her focus immediately, and went into what Cesar would call "avoid or flight", she didn't want to be near the dogs anymore. She would eventually build back up her courage, and see if she could get in a few more barks, but a stern "EH!" was enough to get her to walk away again. Eventually, Jazmyn was laying in the grass in the shade, about 20 feet away from the dogs without acknowledging they were in their kennels.

This whole dynamic changes when we actually do training sessions. We go into positive reinforcement and handling strategies versus corrections. For example, 2 weeks ago we had a session with Mike and his GSD Carmspack Badger. Mike was inside the fenced agility field with us, and had Badger completing commands on the outside of the fence. Jazmyn of course, went crazy barking, but the goal this time was to let her realize & process that her reaction was u necessary. Her barking subsided within a few moments, however her anxiousness, pacing & lunging remained. Mike taught us how to walk with her with Badger on the outside of the fence, how to get her focus back & make sharp movements to get her to follow. Mike then walked with Badger on the outside of the fence, my husband walked Jaz on the inside. The barking didn't exist, but the excitability remained. Eventually, and because we have time on our side at training, Mike was able to sit on the outside of the fence, with Badger on his right, and Jazmyn on his left (behind the fence), both eating chicken from his hands with no reaction.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I just want to address the poor baby's feelings thing - it's not that - it's producing a safe, thinking dog, using our ability to think and understand. 

I think once in a while, snapping a dog out of something, and definitely stopping them from doing something, yeah, you do it, but you know that if it works once for most people, what are they going to tend to do? Do it again and again for everything...that's why it's nice that the trainer did the "don't try it at home" thing and even nicer that the OP didn't (because many people would). 

BUT, since the OP is hooked up a trainer that they really like and feel good about working with, I would probably, to maintain consistency, talk to them more so than getting conflicting information from all of us. 

Though it is good for all of us to read and to think and expand even more what we can accept in terms of a dog's ability to learn.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I just want to address the poor baby's feelings thing - it's not that - it's producing a safe, thinking dog, using our ability to think and understand.
> 
> I think once in a while, snapping a dog out of something, and definitely stopping them from doing something, yeah,


And that's exactly what snapping a dog out of a "zone" does, brings the dog back to a THINKING place rather than a REACTING place. Once in the zone, if the only thing that breaks the dog out of it is a swat on the butt or a pinch on the flank, that gets the dog back into a thinking place. So it absolutely helps produce a safe dog, IMO. The dog learns to think before reacting. 



> but you know that if it works once for most people, what are they going to tend to do? Do it again and again for everything...


Well, that is the problem. People in general (and Americans in particular) seem to think that if a little is good, a lot is better. This is where the education and training of the HANDLER comes in... training the handler is just as important (if not more so) than training the dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and if the action was not appropriate at the time, and you never heard it being used as part of training , then you would not have been able to achieve this " Eventually, and because we have time on our side at training, Mike was able to sit on the outside of the fence, with Badger on his right, and Jazmyn on his left (behind the fence), both eating chicken from his hands with no reaction" so quickly. That takes a skilled READ of a dog . Getting there -- slowly but surely.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I was thrilled with the progress at training, it just shows that reduced reactions, or no reactions may be part of our distance future.

Jazmyn's reactions are of course, much different when we are walking the streets around our home. We do not have the benefit of time like we do at Mike's. While at training, we can essentially just wait it out, and set up situations that will be most beneficial to us. However, on a normal walk, dogs come out of no where, people get scared by her barking & speed up, we move forward to move past people & dogs which leaves little time for her to process her actions (Most people do not appreciate us just standing there and letter her bark to work it out for herself).

Small achievement last night = no biting in protest!
I came home from work and she barked at me from behind the ex-pen gate (set up so she can't charge the door). My husband and I just talked etc and let her react (saying Quiet does no good, so why waste the command just now). He stayed on his side of the gate with her, and I stayed on the other. It took 20 minutes of talking, but she eventually ignored us and went to lay down to give me the space to enter.

Blocking off our couch from total access is impossible because of its size and the layout of our living room. She understands "off". You could see her process the thought of jumping up, and a few times she made the right choice and didn't. The other 2 times, she jumped up, but immediately listened to my off command with no protesting, biting or barking. She took a spot laying at my feet to chew on an antler instead.

In just a few days, she is getting better at waiting for food and giving me more space. She'd wait before, but try and be as close to the preparation as possible. Now she backs up and lays where I ask her to.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Just thought I'd also update with the response from our trainer:

"NILIF should be a regular state for this particular dog, she does need to be managed. Her mouthing & biting is a result of some overindulgence of sorts. Less free time, followed by work only when she is out. Any nonsense and the work ends and she is put away.

Walks are not simply for walking. She must comply with being beside you or you do not go forward, at all. A prong collar is not a good idea, you will be taking a sharp, insecure animal and using pain to motivate her. To be honest, a head halter is better (he inserted a video to show me how to handle it). A prong, like the head halther, is yet another crutch however it creates a more volatile dog if not used correctly."

So that's our decision made, no prong for Jazmyn. I'm going to attempt walks with her buckle biothane collar, and after a bit may move to the head halter.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Bottom line if what the trainer is doing works thats it. People love to monday morning quarterback and make dire predictions. In reality all that matters is the result. If your trainer is getting you results thats all you need concern yourself with. 

In regards to the comments on the prong. I have used a prong on a nervy intense gsd, dog didnt come up my arm nor did she shut down. Corrections that are not strong enough can amp up a dog (this is done intentionally in sport), too strong can send the dog into complete avoidance. Doesnt really matter with what, e collar, choke, prong etc. Its not the tool its how you use it. Using a prong on this dog would not ruin it imo. (I just read what you said about the trainer, Im not going to contradict him my comment is general in nature)

People get too tied up with their personal ethos to the point that they become blind to results / reality. Posative training works wonders in the learning stage but on many dogs is not enough to give the dog a well rounded education. Many people on here seem to think its very easy to break the spirit of a dog and ruin your relationship. It take a lot to get to that point..alot more then some stiff corrections with a prong. What really ruins your relationship is letting the dog engage in unhealthy, disrespectful and dangerous behaviors and not correcting them.

Im glad your seeing results!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yes "What really ruins your relationship is letting the dog engage in unhealthy, disrespectful and dangerous behaviors and not correcting them" so very very true


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you have a reactive dog, that is reactive to dogs and people. And you let some person punish your dog, aren't you reinforcing that people are scary and bad things happen when people get too close. 

What stopped? The barking stopped. That could be good, snapped the dog out of a zone. Fine. It could also be bad. Will the dog learn not to bark. Barking is actually good, it is a warning GET AWAY! and the owner can respond by realizing their dog is too close to its threshold and the environment better change or the dog will escalate. So we generally do not encourage people to punish a dog for barking, because a dog that does not bark, but is still wary or fearful will escalate without barking. If barking is punished by a smack on the but, then growling, snarling, snapping is going to punished also. What is left to the dog, when the symptoms of the underlying issue are exercised, but the problem not addressed? Well, you have a dog that immediately bites. The dog will be considered totally unpredictable. 

I would not let someone else punish my dog. If I was putting my dog on someone's sheep (and have), I would be ok with them defending their sheep (wasn't necessary with my girl, but if it was, I would be ok with them using their crook to protect their animals). And if the dog was seriously into eating sheep, then I probably would figure herding wasn't her thing. 

I also would not let my dog bark continuously at another dog. I would treat dog reactivity different. I would move on with the dog, "Eh! LEAVE IT, It's just a dog" while moving on -- not necessarily turning away from the dog and changing my purpose, but removing my dog from the closeness of the other dog. I would try again from a longer distance. Once the dog is comfortable working with dogs 30 feet away, I would increase the time and decrease the distance. As the dog matures, working with the dog will not necessarily make a dog that will be running with multiple stranger dogs in a dog park setting, but will generally produce a dog that will ignore other dogs. 

The trick is to expose the dog to what it is fearful of in such a way that you remain below its threshold so that the dog does not aggress, if you get too close, too fast, the dog lets you know, and you blame yourself and start again from a greater distance. 

I really haven't come across a lot of good reasons to hit a dog or let someone else hit my dog. As for chewing on the cord behind the couch, that really has never been an issue for me. I pretty much keep puppies contained where they cannot hurt themselves until after they are over the chewing stage, completing house training is really no problem, and so far I have never had a dog electrocute themselves in the process.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gotta say love how some people seem to know better than the paid trainer who does this for a living. If you trust someone enough to pay them to help train your dog then listen to him. I know that I would trust that over some random stranger on the Internet.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> If you have a reactive dog, that is reactive to dogs and people. And you let some person punish your dog, aren't you reinforcing that people are scary and bad things happen when people get too close.
> 
> *No you are punishing the state of mind not the site of the reactivity target.*
> 
> ...


The idea that corrections will make a reactive dog worse is simply not true. Yes posative R is great for rewarding good behavior and rewarding the dog when it offers alternate behavior in the presence of its target. BUT a correction when timed right and at the appropriate level can literally throw the dog out of its negative state of mind. These guys have one track minds, a proper correction changes the track then the dog becomes receptive to learning alternate behaviours.

There is no right or wrong way, there is only results.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

With my dogs, I've never corrected them for barking. I do demand "Quiet" at some point, and if this is ignored then they get corrected for that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I use Quiet or Enough when they are barking, but I guess I would not do that if my dog was actively barking at another dog. I wouldn't expose a dog-reactive dog to a dog and punish it for barking at it. There are different schools of thought on this. 

Many of you would consider Cesar an excellent trainer. Many would trust him. He gets paid for what he does. And yet there was a u-tube on here yesterday that showed him get himself seriously bitten, by pushing a dog over its threshold, and not reading the dog correctly at all. The problem with trusting your trainers is this. Most of us trust our vets. But many of us do not trust our vets. Our vets had to have had several years of graduate work after being accepted in a prestigious program, and they had to have completed that work satisfactorily. They have to be licensed. And STILL, many of us do not necessarily trust them, not without cause. For trainers, all you have to do is hang up a shingle. I could hang a shingle on my door tomorrow Sue Selzer, Dog Trainer. 

Does that make me a dog trainer? Yes it does. I have trained dogs, and now I have a shingle. I am a dog trainer. And I can accept money to train your dogs. Does this make me a good trainer? No way? How can we tell who is and who is not trustworthy? 

I want to say here, that a breeder on this site who has exhibited a lot of knowledge and has produced good dogs with good training has given this trainer a reference. So, he is probably better than your run of the mill trainer with a shingle. But just because Carmen and some others are ok with someone else punishing their dogs with a smack on the butt, doesn't mean that everyone would be ok with that. And personally, I do not think that is suitable for all dogs. 

Why did the dog stop barking? Not out of fear of a little but slap. Sorry, dogs are not that fragile. Maybe it did pop the dog out of the zone. Maybe the dog shut down. I really don't think a butt slap is going to break a dog's spirit, not really, but I don't think it does anything for the bond between owner and dog, unless the dog is hard -- meaning the dog takes corrections very well and can stand a strong correction without any lasting effect. A soft dog will actually act a bit funny after a stiff verbal correction. And smacking a soft dog can actually do damage in the process of building a bond with the dog.

And a dog that tends to be nervous or fearful of people and dogs, well, allowing someone else to hit the dog, I wouldn't do that. There is not just one way to get from point B to point A. I want my dogs to trust me to protect them. I do not want them to think that I will let others smack them, punish them, or correct them.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thats one thing I really like about CM, he will show when he gets bit, admit to the mistake he made and move forward. Iv seen him bit a few times and yet he moves forward and resolves the problem. No ones perfect, and its a warning to those who thinks the process is as easy as he makes it look.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I've been to see this trainer, and have also been to see many other trainers in this area. I have to say, I find him very knowledgeable and would trust him with my dog. He really does take time to get to know your dog, and explain to you behaviours that were previously missed. The "bum smacking" really isn't what it's made out to be. I would never put up with a trainer who hit my dog. It's a quick pat on the side of the legs. But for those who insist it is physical punishment, it isn't in his regular course of training, and dogs who train with Mike really do love him. It's more a one-off thing to assess the dog's reaction in the ASSESSMENT period.

I don't think the turn of discussions will help Lisa. She might be intimidated from posting more information and hearing more opinions because people are going to torch her trainer. It's an ugly conflicted feeling. There is nothing wrong with voicing an opinion on the internet, but (and Selzer, though it sounds like it's singling you out, it really is a general observation of this forum) repeatedly pursuing one of the OP's points and making her feel bad for it isn't constructive. I'm sure at this point Lisa realizes that the bum smack is something she wants to put more thought into and maybe ask more questions about to her trainer. Bringing it up over and over again just makes it hard for us with questions to learn further on OTHER aspects of the post if that one tiny thing becomes the central discussion of the thread. 

Sorry for the rant. I've wanted to say this in many threads, and was finally able to spit it out.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And STILL, many of us do not necessarily trust them, not without cause. For trainers, all you have to do is hang up a shingle. I could hang a shingle on my door tomorrow Sue Selzer, Dog Trainer.


Exactly...and it's funny how people will then "listen" to a trainer just because they call themselves one.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe I'm just far too easygoing when it comes to barking, because when I read all the threads about 'reactivity' I always wonder to myself, "What do they expect?"
I *know* my puppy will bark at other dogs. If he sees them from the window, he barks. He's allowed a few, then he has to stop. Or I close the window. Or I put him out of that room. He does stop, somehow, eventually. Now he's learning and he's doing the "Puff Puff" (like in evybear's cool video) because he wants to watch them and he know the consequences of continued barking.

I took him to the dog park yesterday for the first time. Of course he barked, since there were 3 dogs there. I didn't want the owners to freak out, so I walked along the fencing for a bit. He eventually stopped barking, so that's when we went in. I'm sure he'll get that message too - barking is ok, but it's not going to get you what you want. Which is how I'm reading the 'reactivity' - he wants to get closer to the dogs.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Maybe I'm just far too easygoing when it comes to barking, because when I read all the threads about 'reactivity' I always wonder to myself, "What do they expect?"
> I *know* my puppy will bark at other dogs. If he sees them from the window, he barks. He's allowed a few, then he has to stop. Or I close the window. Or I put him out of that room. He does stop, somehow, eventually. Now he's learning and he's doing the "Puff Puff" (like in evybear's cool video) because he wants to watch them and he know the consequences of continued barking.
> 
> I took him to the dog park yesterday for the first time. Of course he barked, since there were 3 dogs there. I didn't want the owners to freak out, so I walked along the fencing for a bit. He eventually stopped barking, so that's when we went in. I'm sure he'll get that message too - barking is ok, but it's not going to get you what you want. Which is how I'm reading the 'reactivity' - he wants to get closer to the dogs.


Maybe it's harder for folks who live in the city. I can't go on walks easily because Puppy will bark. She LOVES dogs when she meets them and gets to play with them. And her barking at them is a mixture of excitement, frustration, and a tiny bit of fear. But it's upsetting for her to react to a dog. Her hackles go up, she's showing signals of stress (lifting one foot, etc). It's also upsetting for me to see her bark like this. You see tons of dogs milling about not worked up at the presence of other dogs, and wish your dog were like this too. I love her dearly, but it's something that you still want to get fixed.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

We all have puppies. Those well-behaved dogs were silly puppies at one point too. I don't think about it like having to "fix" this, so much as outgrow it. I've taken my puppy on a dog walk (with about a dozen other dogs) and he was very good, because he had "Heel" "Leave it" and "Quiet" to obey. Now, I'm not saying that the first 10 minutes weren't loud ones, lol - and the tug sure came in handy!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I really don't think a butt slap is going to break a dog's spirit, not really, but I don't think it does anything for the bond between owner and dog, unless the dog is hard -- meaning the dog takes corrections very well and can stand a strong correction without any lasting effect. A soft dog will actually act a bit funny after a stiff verbal correction. And smacking a soft dog can actually do damage in the process of building a bond with the dog.


I am not sure I believe that--once a dog forms a bond with you, even a soft dog is not going to be damaged by a swat on the butt, or suddenly fear or distrust you. Most soft dogs don't NEED a swat, but should you accidentally step on their toe causing enough pain to yelp, I don't think it's going to damage your relationship with the dog if that relationship is already well established. They may shoot out submissive/appeasement gestures and possibly even shut down for a moment, but should recover quickly once they realize everything is okay and you're not mad.

I guess most of my dogs are quite hard, as my experience with the occasional swat produces a seemingly heightened desire to do right by me. "I'm sorry, what can I do to make it up to you?" My dog seems to say.

I'm talking about GSDs here. I would never swat my Akbash Dog. I wouldn't call him "soft", but he had a completely different mindset than a GSD... all I had to do was use a harsh tone of voice with him and he'd put his ears back, lower his head and tail, and do the "horseshoe" (bending himself in half while walking away). Were I to physically punish him, he would probably shut down. My husband once caught him with a duckling in his mouth, and grabbed him by the collar, yelled at him, and half-dragged him into the kennel. I doubt this 130 lb. dog was caused physical pain by this, but his feelings were definitely hurt... he walked on eggshells around my husband for the rest of the day. But he got over it, he absolutely adored my husband. Never put another duckling in his mouth, though!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I am not sure I believe that--once a dog forms a bond with you, even a soft dog is not going to be damaged by a swat on the butt, or suddenly fear or distrust you. Most soft dogs don't NEED a swat, but should you accidentally step on their toe causing enough pain to yelp, I don't think it's going to damage your relationship with the dog if that relationship is already well established. They may shoot out submissive/appeasement gestures and possibly even shut down for a moment, but should recover quickly once they realize everything is okay and you're not mad.
> 
> I guess most of my dogs are quite hard, as my experience with the occasional swat produces a seemingly heightened desire to do right by me. "I'm sorry, what can I do to make it up to you?" My dog seems to say.
> 
> I'm talking about GSDs here. I would never swat my Akbash Dog. I wouldn't call him "soft", but he had a completely different mindset than a GSD... all I had to do was use a harsh tone of voice with him and he'd put his ears back, lower his head and tail, and do the "horseshoe" (bending himself in half while walking away). Were I to physically punish him, he would probably shut down. My husband once caught him with a duckling in his mouth, and grabbed him by the collar, yelled at him, and half-dragged him into the kennel. I doubt this 130 lb. dog was caused physical pain by this, but his feelings were definitely hurt... he walked on eggshells around my husband for the rest of the day. But he got over it, he absolutely adored my husband. Never put another duckling in his mouth, though!


Im shocked..the behavior changed and your husband didnt even have a cookie or clicker!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> I am not sure I believe that--once a dog forms a bond with you, even a soft dog is not going to be damaged by a swat on the butt, or suddenly fear or distrust you. Most soft dogs don't NEED a swat, but should you accidentally step on their toe causing enough pain to yelp, I don't think it's going to damage your relationship with the dog if that relationship is already well established. They may shoot out submissive/appeasement gestures and possibly even shut down for a moment, but should recover quickly once they realize everything is okay and you're not mad.
> 
> I guess most of my dogs are quite hard, as my experience with the occasional swat produces a seemingly heightened desire to do right by me. "I'm sorry, what can I do to make it up to you?" My dog seems to say.
> 
> I'm talking about GSDs here. I would never swat my Akbash Dog. I wouldn't call him "soft", but he had a completely different mindset than a GSD... all I had to do was use a harsh tone of voice with him and he'd put his ears back, lower his head and tail, and do the "horseshoe" (bending himself in half while walking away). Were I to physically punish him, he would probably shut down. My husband once caught him with a duckling in his mouth, and grabbed him by the collar, yelled at him, and half-dragged him into the kennel. I doubt this 130 lb. dog was caused physical pain by this, but his feelings were definitely hurt... he walked on eggshells around my husband for the rest of the day. But he got over it, he absolutely adored my husband. Never put another duckling in his mouth, though!


Once the bond is formed, it will not cause lasting damage. I was saying that in the process of building the bond, it can't help. The bond is trust. And after a dog decides to trust you, they will over-look an awful lot. But when a dog is not there yet, it can make things harder. It could be a set-back. I think we were talking about the process of building that bond.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im shocked..the behavior changed and your husband didnt even have a cookie or clicker!!!



I love it when people think there way is the only or best way to the point where they have to make fun of people who do things a different way.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> I love it when people think there way is the only or best way to the point where they have to make fun of people who do things a different way.


Dont be, its a rampant problem on these forums.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Dont be, its a rampant problem on these forums.


It seems like if you are going with the flow, prong collars are the way to go, CM is as super dog hero, and e-collars are the bomb, you can be sarcastic, rude, make fun of people who suggest other methods. 

But if you say something like, "Whoo Hoo, Santa Clause bought you a Prong Collar for Christmas, aren't you just a special pup." You will get a warning. Probably. Well, I just know it has happened.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when I brought Nickolas out one evening , before officially handing him over to Mike for the program , I was waiting for Mike to finish training with a client and her dog , a GSD with some standard problems of being excitable, reactive, a little nervy. I stood way back in the drive way with decoy friend Jon . I did mention to Jon that , look , the dog is choosing the company of Mike free will, over hanging with her owner . While Mike was describing something the dog who was about 8 feet away with the young lady Vet student , would prance over to be close to Mike , much more relaxed "there" . Later Vet student would socialize with my young pup -- and in conversation she recognized that the dog had sold out on her . lol.
When I go out to train , in truth , the majority of the time the dogs do not have a leash and do not have a collar . We try to get the co-operation of the dog as a team mate . 
This is not a case of hanging out a shingle and calling self a trainer --- many dogs exceptionally well prepared for high levels sophisticated working careers.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> It seems like if you are going with the flow, prong collars are the way to go, CM is as super dog hero, and e-collars are the bomb, you can be sarcastic, rude, make fun of people who suggest other methods.
> 
> But if you say something like, "Whoo Hoo, Santa Clause bought you a Prong Collar for Christmas, aren't you just a special pup." You will get a warning. Probably. Well, I just know it has happened.


My dry humor if you will was to underline the narrow minded approach of the many rabid proponents of exclusive +R to the exclusion of all else. Any type of correction will probably ruin your dog, corrections are abusive, dominance theory it outdated..etc etc. 
I have said if you read my previous posts +R has a huge place in dog training and dealing with behaviour issues imo. So do corrections. Not from a punative standpoint but from changing the dogs state of mind to the point were +R can have a lasting effect. 
I can disagree with you just like you can with me. Neither of us is all knowing by any stretch. I can even be humorous about it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

marshies said:


> I don't think the turn of discussions will help Lisa. She might be intimidated from posting more information and hearing more opinions...


I really hope this doesn't happen. I learn from threads like these, and even when I don't agree with someone's idea it gives me the chanceto think about things from another perspective, and sometimes I do change my mind. How else can you learn?

Lisa, I think it shows alot of courage to post what's going on. Thanks you for this informative thread.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> My dry humor if you will was to underline the narrow minded approach of the many rabid proponents of exclusive +R to the exclusion of all else. Any type of correction will probably ruin your dog, corrections are abusive, dominance theory it outdated..etc etc.
> I have said if you read my previous posts +R has a huge place in dog training and dealing with behaviour issues imo. So do corrections. Not from a punative standpoint but from changing the dogs state of mind to the point were +R can have a lasting effect.
> I can disagree with you just like you can with me. Neither of us is all knowing by any stretch. I can even be humorous about it.


FWIW, I got the humor. I even giggled. 

It seems to me this forum is full of +R proponents, to the point where the mere mention of a prong collar will always bring up someone who thinks it's wrong to train a dog with "pain". I know I have to walk on eggshells around here if I want to talk about corrections.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

No worries everyone, I'm not afraid to post the information. I think threads like these, that offer a discussion from both viewpoints, can be helpful when people are trying to make decisions.

I think that corrections are sometimes needed, however they need to be fair and appropriate. In this case, during Jazmyn's behaviour assessment, I felt exactly that. She has developed such an obsession, and gets such a personal reward/thrill, from barking at dogs that way she does, that something quick & intense needed to happen for her to break that crazy focus. Like I said though, this is NOT something that we do at home, on our own, etc. It was only used during her behaviour assessment. I trust Mike, and I knew that he was not out to hurt Jazmyn, it was a tool that he needed to use to regain her focus and continue on with the assessment.

We're learning alternative methods on how to deal with the reactivity while we're on our daily walks. Avoid dogs is very difficult if we don't want to walk her at 5am, or 11pm. We live in a mature subdivision where almost every house has a dog. Our neighbour across the street has 2 miniature poodles, one that he walks on a long flexi-lead and the other completely offleash. He talks with our neighbour on our left side almost daily, and the off leash dog is constantly on our driveway. When we come out our sidedoor, Jazmyn goes wild. I don't think this is okay, but I also see her point of view. I myself, have almost killed this dog with my SUV because the owner isn't responsible and it was under my car one morning while he was talking with the neighbour. The dog isn't poorly behaved, it's the owner, and that's why I haven't called the city. Nearly all the dogs in our neighbourhood are small, and while I personally am not a fan of small dogs, in our area, their stereotype is true. They are yappy, charge the end of a leash, and no one says anything to them or asks them to stop barking because they're cute & can't hurt anything. Jazmyn's reactivity is one thing, but dogs barking back at her don't help our cause. The larger dogs in our neighbourhood (2 great danes, 2 bernese mountain dogs, a golden retreiver, etc) all have great owners, and their dogs don't react to Jazmyn. We usually get hellos and smiles from them as we are trying to control her (some often say we're doing a good job with what we have), yet the small dog owners give us the death stare and detest our dog. None of this is an excuse, it is simply what we have to deal with on a daily basis, and why we want to gain better control of Jaz.

UPDATE:
Things have been going well this week with Jazmyn. She is absolutely thoroughly confused at what is happening in our home. When I am trying to enforce something (say waiting patiently for food - we're making her wait 3 feet further back than she used to do not invade the kitchen space), she is attempting to look to my husband to save her, yet he ignores, and she knows she now must listen if she is to eat dinner.

She is understanding to sit & wait at doors, sometimes without being asked. She is listening to off commands with respect to the couch if she manages to get up (she's a sneaky girl!)

She is spending more time in her crate, and is only coming out for exercise, walks, training sessions and meals. She has increased her biting/tail fur pulling though, so I'm sure this is an anxiety/confusion response (but is also mixed with her possible allergy to chicken - we're 2 weeks into a raw diet, and trying to determine if it is a food allergy that is causing her scratching/biting/licking/tail fur pulling).

Yesterday 2 friends came over at different times, and we had Jazmyn crate both times to prevent her from barking & charging the door. She barked pretty wildly when they came in, but with our first friend, we had instructed him to absolutely ignore her. He totally understood, and within 3 minutes, she was sitting in her crate observing & quiet, and was rewarded with treats. Paul's cousin came over, and Jaz likes him, so her reaction was more excited, it took her a little bit longer to realize she couldn't say hi to John, but she eventually laid down while we talked and of course she was rewarded for this. She won't be allowed to interact with people until she is able to stay calm while they enter. Her stimulation level needs to remain low & learn that WE can handle it when people come in.

It will be a long road, but baby progress is being made.


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

Earlier the OP was talking about needing a leash with better control. This is not the one I have, but is very similar. Amazon.com: Loops 2 Double Handle Nylon Leash, 6-Foot, Blue: Pet Supplies

I like it as we can walk on loose, long lead or if I am meeting other dogs or entering traffic I grab the close loop which puts her in a great "heel" position.


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