# Desperately need advice... Should I bring pup back to the breeder? (long post)



## Mog (Aug 10, 2012)

Hi all,

I'm at a crossroads and really need some advice from those more experienced with GSD's. 

For those of you who don't know, my daughter and I brought Max home 4 months ago. He's a good dog, but I'm dealing with two issue right now. 

First, Max has become very aggressive the past 2 weeks. He was eating some scraps out of his bowl over the weekend and my daughter walked about 3 feed behind him and he turned, growled and snapped at her. Two days ago, I put him in the kennel before I left for work and gave him a bone as a treat. I went to say goodbye to him before I walked out and he turned around and went crazy... growling, barking, biting the kennel walls. I'm 6'2, 220lbs and he scared me...

I have another post up, but I'll try to summarize here... I'm a single father, with a 4 year old daughter and our pup. I did a lot of research before bringing Max home as you can see by my previous posts  But unfortunately, I haven't had the time do the training the way I would have liked. Max had free roam of the back yard and house (while I was with him) and he seems to think he leads the pack now. I've buckled down and gotten back on track with his training, which I'm sure caused some of the issue. 

Max was socialized quite a bit, plays with the neighbors dogs, etc... but the past few weeks, when someone walks by the yard or a car goes by, he puts his hackles, starts barking and runs up to the fence and scares the person. Whenever someone walked by, he used to run up and want to play, especially little kids. The other day a couple were walking by with two little ones, maybe 2 and 4 and he went berserk... I've also noticed that if I gave him a bone out in the yard and walked by, he would start growling and eat quickly. He only eats raw and has always been left alone to eat. I typically feed him out in the back so he doesn't drag the raw meat around the kitchen. 

Now since I started keeping him on lead, training him, etc... over the past 3 days, he seems to have improved. I hand feed him his meat and give him his bone outside on lead. This morning, after I hand fed him, I let him eat the tripe and some small meat so he would eat his vitamin and salmon oil. While he was eating, he had a 6' lead on... I picked up the 20' so I could take him out after he ate and defecate. I changed the leads on him while he was eating and he didn't mind at all... He was eating, tail wagging like a good pup. I didn't think about it until after I changed leads... That's the first time he hasn't growled when someone went near him eating in a month. 

What bothers me, is that he seems to "snap"... he can go from a playful puppy to Cujo in 1 second. Again, I know a lot of it has to do with his training or lack of up to this point and I'm willing to do what I can to correct this. But I'm worried it may be something I can't correct... I took Max to the vet this morning for the 2nd issue I'll discuss shortly and he became aggressive, went after each of the other animals there and the vet had to muzzle him. 

Now, on to the second issue. Max has been fighting a rash for 3 months now. I've been to two vets, 3 visits and I'm almost at a thousand dollars in vet bills at this point. 2 months ago, he had a bad rash all over his body and a hot spot on his face. Went to vet #1. They gave him anti-biotics, etc... which didn't make a difference at all. A month later, after no improvement and Max getting an ear infection from scratching the rash in his ear, we went to vet #2. They did a scrape, checked for fleas, put Max on an anti-biotic and antihistamine? In 3 days, the rash was gone! Well, 2 days ago, I notice that the rash is coming back and his ear was bleeding from him scratching it. So this morning I take him back to vet #2, they did another scrape at no charge, took blood for a thyroid level check and put him back on the anti-biotics and antihistamine. I really want to get rid of this problem and get Max healthy... The vet said it could be one of two things... 1. she said it looks like a reaction to flea bites. Max is on Springtime Garlic for ticks and not taking any flea medication. She keeps telling me he needs to and at this point, I'm willing to try anything... I saw one flea a couple of months ago on me, but never anything on Max. She said Max needs to be on flea preventative for 3 straight months to see if makes any difference. She said if the condition reappears/doesn't go away, the next step is to take him in for allergy testing. She stated that she's seen a lot of dogs with gene issues and it could be the issue. But she said that the would not test max for allergies until he was on flea and tick preventative... 

So now I have two concerns... 1. can I correct the behavioral issues with Max... and 2, could he possibly have a gene/allergy issues which honestly, I can't afford right now. My financial situation took a turn for the worse and I don't have extra money... especially for special diets, medications, treatments, etc...

My daughter and I are both very attached to Max, he's part of the family. I spoke with the breeder about Max's aggression issues and she offered to take Max back and refund the money. That's the last thing I want to do... but I'm really concerned about these two issues, especially the safety of my daughter. I don't know if Max's aggression will get worse without proper training which I just can't afford now. Again, I'll do what I can myself, but I don't have the funds for a trainer. I was going to sign up and take him to the Shutzhund club, but with the vet bills, the extra money I had is gone.

And now, I still don't know what's wrong with Max and what's causing his rashes... the scrapes showed nothing, the anti-biotics will make it go away I'm assuming like last time, but until the problem is found and treated properly, I'm assuming it will be back in a month or so...

This is so frustrating all the way around... any and all advice will be greatly appreciated! I'm sorry for the novel, but I really do need advice and help here and wanted to mention as much as I could think of. I'm sure there are things I left out and I'll be happy to answer any questions you guys/gals have.

Thank you so much!

Alex


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## Trotter (Jan 16, 2013)

Sounds like you'd be more comfortable giving the dog back to the breeder and, given the personality and apparent allergy issues (in combination with your financial circumstance), that may be best for the dog. Resource guarding is a leadership issue that will require stronger and more informed correction over time to fix, and your child is too young to participate (except as victim). Flea allergy is sometimes diagnosed when food or environmental allergies are to blame, and your vet's already got his/her fail-safe in place with "gene issues." There may be thousands of dollars out the door down this road, with no fix.

Best of luck to you and the dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I was a single custodial dad of three and it's not easy. 

It sounds to me like this is not the right time for you to have a dog like this.
You have a full plate now and I don't see where you will get the time to work with a dog like this.

If you want a dog I would suggest a more mellow breed until your daughter is older.

Lots of GSDs are great with kids but not all. I wouldn't chance injury to my daughter with this one.

This dog could thrive in another situation.

Best wishes for all concerned.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

In think this dog would do well in a working home once the health issues were fixed. Don't feel guilty. He sounds like a handful. And a dog you will constantly have to be one step ahead, with. 


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I agree with Trotter & Jack's Dad. Especially with a 4 year old and Max's mood changes. Your little girl only has one face! We had a 4 year old that was bit it the face from an UN-provoked situation......devastating!
Puppies need your hands and other family members hands in and on their food with every feeding from the day you bring them home....no matter the breed. You also need to play a give and take game with a fresh meaty bone.
It is wonderful that this breeder is responsible and willing to take the dog back.
This is heartbreaking for you and your little girl. I am so sorry.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Between the behavioral issues, vet issues, and money issues, it sounds like this situation is turning into a big bucket of stress you don't need and are not in a position to deal with easily.

Count me in as a vote for "return the dog." And don't feel guilty about it. The breeder is probably in a better position to address the dog's needs. It may well be the best thing for everyone here.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Kudos to you, Alex, for considering this option and kudos to your breeder for offering to take him back. Disregarding the skin issues, it sounds like Max is a little too much dog for you at this point in your lives? It sounds like you chose him because of his strong, working lines and as such, he needs a clear, confident and involved leader. From what you've said, it seems like he's sort of gone to seed (or to genes, as the case may be) and is now making decisions for himself, including assuming the leadership role in your home and yard.

Perhaps Max would be happier in a working home and you and your daughter might consider an adult, kid-proven rescue when you're ready to welcome another dog into your lives?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Not the right dog for your situation - too much given what is on your plate. Give the dog back and get your refund. 

Not every GSD is right for every home. As much as you much like a certain type of dog, it is sometimes more prudent to ask for what you can handle and a happy medium rather than one you cannot manage given your situation.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i also vote to give him back. having an unpredictable dog in the house isnt worth it. he doesnt sound like a good fit as he is unsure and reactive. definitely a dog better suited for someone with experience and a lot of time to fix his issues. did you get him from a reputable breeder? his temperment doesnt sound all that great.

im not very tough on my dog. he has free run of the house and when i feed him (raw) i just give it to him and he gets to eat it anywhere he wants. he isnt aggressive or reactive. he is fearless and confident. training is important but so is getting a dog with a good temperment to begin with.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I vote send him back. I always regret being talked out of sending back one of my puppies. Of course that is the dog that will probably outlive them all. 

For future reference, I wonder if he's allergic to the garlic?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I wonder if feeling uncomfortable with the skin rash is related to his behavior, maybe I'd be grouchy if my skin was itchy or inflamed all the time. Is he on meds like prednisone? That can make him aggressive. Antihistamine changes my mood, so meds can affect behavior.

Our cat is allergic to fleas. The topicals do not work for her. She only responds to Comfortis. I'd ask the vet for Trifexis or Comfortis. Trifexis has meds for heartworm in it, Comfortis is just for fleas. From you previous post it sounds like your dog was responding to you better. Your vet is right about keeping your dog on flea meds for three months straight.

So no, I vote not to give him back until you try some effective flea medications and see if this helps.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> I agree with Trotter & Jack's Dad. Especially with a 4 year old and Max's mood changes. Your little girl only has one face! We had a 4 year old that was bit it the face from an UN-provoked situation......devastating!
> Puppies need your hands and other family members hands in and on their food with every feeding from the day you bring them home....no matter the breed. You also need to play a give and take game with a fresh meaty bone.
> It is wonderful that this breeder is responsible and willing to take the dog back.
> This is heartbreaking for you and your little girl. I am so sorry.


Great advice all around to OP. Except for this...this is *not* how you should go about "training" a dog to not resource guard. The best way to do that is to, everytime you walk to the dog while eating, trade with a higher value treat....so when you approach any time, it think's it's going to get an even better treat than what it has. If you train a resource-guarding dog like stated by Momto2, you can create even worse guarding because the dog assumes every time you come you are going to mess with, or take away his food. Just an fyi


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Gretchen said:


> I wonder if feeling uncomfortable with the skin rash is related to his behavior, maybe I'd be grouchy if my skin was itchy or inflamed all the time. Is he on meds like prednisone? That can make him aggressive. Antihistamine changes my mood, so meds can affect behavior.
> 
> Our cat is allergic to fleas. The topicals do not work for her. She only responds to Comfortis. I'd ask the vet for Trifexis or Comfortis. Trifexis has meds for heartworm in it, Comfortis is just for fleas. From you previous post it sounds like your dog was responding to you better. Your vet is right about keeping your dog on flea meds for three months straight.
> 
> So no, I vote not to give him back until you try some effective flea medications and see if this helps.


I would also want to try this if I was OP.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Alex, I'm heartbroken with what you are going through. I know how much time and research you put in before getting Max, so I know you don't do things lightly.
You have to do what's right for you and your daughter. I wish you luck with whatever you decide!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i use to place my hand in my dog's bowl all of the time. my
GF did it, my children did it, my neighbors did it. anybody
can place their hand in my dog's food or water bowl. i included
trading up for food when i placed my hand in his bowl.




Momto2GSDs said:


> I agree with Trotter & Jack's Dad. Especially with a 4 year old and Max's mood changes. Your little girl only has one face! We had a 4 year old that was bit it the face from an UN-provoked situation......devastating!
> 
> >>>>> Puppies need your hands and other family members hands in and on their food with every feeding from the day you bring them home....no matter the breed. You also need to play a give and take game with a fresh meaty bone.<<<<<
> 
> ...





DaniFani said:


> Great advice all around to OP. Except for this...
> 
> >>>>> this is *not* how you should go about "training" a dog to not resource guard. The best way to do that is to, everytime you walk to the dog while eating, trade with a higher value treat....<<<<<
> 
> so when you approach any time, it think's it's going to get an even better treat than what it has. If you train a resource-guarding dog like stated by Momto2, you can create even worse guarding because the dog assumes every time you come you are going to mess with, or take away his food. Just an fyi


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

give the dog back to the breeder. except the refund. save the refund plus
save some more money. wait untill you're in a good position to have a dog
so you can spend the necessary time to train and socialize and have the money
for a trainer. while you're waiting for the right time to get a dog research the breed,
learn how to train and socialize, stay on the forum. good luck.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I agree with everyone else that it is in the best interest of your family to return the dog. 



Momto2GSDs said:


> Puppies need your hands and other family members hands in and on their food with every feeding from the day you bring them home....no matter the breed. You also need to play a give and take game with a fresh meaty bone.


For others, the above is not true. Dogs that this approach works on likely would have been fine without. In some dogs, doing things like constantly messing with their food and toys will actually cause them to guard.

Teaching the dog that you always provide good things, to drop on command and that you reward for giving up high value items willingly is the better approach. I would not recommend having everyone and their neighbor stick their hands in your dog's face when they are eating or enjoying high value items.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Andy. Health issue aside he may not be a bad dog at all, just a bad fit. Glad the breeder is willing to work with you.


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## Apple (Jun 21, 2013)

If max has an allergy to fleas (my 9y/o shepherd x does) he'll be itchy and grouchy. Especially if the infection/rash is in his ears. It itched right down in the canal and is very sore, could you imagine having that pain/itch untreated all day? 

The allergy is expensive to treat, with oral medications, topical creams, and frontline to keep the fleas away! 

The decision you are making is a hard one, but at the end of the day, your daughters health should be paramount! She's small, and has no control over Max, if his training has gone downhill, then you may be able to reassert yourself, but your daughter can't. 

The breeder is willing to take Max back, that should put your mind at ease!  at least then you know she will place him somewhere great for him! 

I vote to give him back. For your families sake, and Max's! You don't want him labeled as a dangerous dog if he ends up biting someone either! 


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## Mog (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your replies. Honestly, I don't know what to do at this point. Max is a part of the family and it's hard to just "give up" on him.

I've been reading the replies and it's heart breaking... I really need to sleep on it and I'll update tomorrow. Right now, I'm trying to get a couple of people to look at him and give an opinion... I really don't think he's a bad dog at all. But the chance of him snapping is what bothers me. 

I'm hoping to hear back from the local Shutzhund club and if possible, take him down in the morning.

Thanks all, I really appreciate it. I guess I was hoping the replies would have favored keeping Max and working with him.

Alex


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Why not take some of the stress off (if you decide to keep your dog) and feed raw alternatives so feeding won't be such a mess and less prep time. There are dehydrated raw foods, just add water, wait 5 minutes and eat, and nutritionally balanced prepared raw foods, thaw and eat.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It sounds like you have alot of different stresses in your life right now....as a novice owner, you have your hands full with a pup who has some behavior problems....you have a small child who you have primary responsibility for and the pup and child could become an issue...

Even though you did research before getting your pup, theory is still not the same as physical reality....you may have bitten off more than you can chew...I agree that this is probably not the right time and the right pup at this point in yours and your daughter's life....and if the breeder will take him back and refund your money....that is a probably the best case scenerio for everyone involved - you, your daughter, the breeder and Max....

Sorry it did not work out for you....

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Tough decision for sure. One I would not want to make.

However, my 2 cents, From what you've said, I would return him. 

I think it was VERY NICE and admirable of the breeder to not only offer to take him back but to refund your money. Not many would refund.

It sounds like this is just not a good time for your situation to have a puppy that is going to need some good training , not just when you have time training, plus an allergy issue that you can't afford to really treat..

I know it must be heartbreaking, but it sounds like now is just not a good time and while I feel for you and your daughter, I think you really need to put Max's best interest over yours at this time..

And no I also do not agree with messing with a dogs food..but kids are kids, and don't understand why they can't even walk by a dog without fear of getting bit/snapped at.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The behavioral issues are due to you not putting in the time. I don't know what age the dog is but you being afraid of your own dog means you don't spend half enough time with it. My dogs are afraid of me not the other way around. lol. Nah I aim for healthy respect but respect has to be gained with a dog. Exercise is paramount. Teach him new disciplines. You become his leader by leading him. Any dog left alone for too much will get wolfie. The resource guarding of the food is an issue. You have to want to train dogs and learn about them, or else they are a mystery to you. Some dogs might have suited your setup but this one will need work. But then the payoff is always worth it. As this dog will look after your garden and protect you when you need it. If you don't put in the effort it is a loose canon. 

Regarding skin issues I use iodine on hotspots. Thats cheap. My dogs brother had the whole vet trips/biotic trip and I had more success with a simpler method. I Use neem oil on fleas. Thats cheap. Thats also good for hair and skin issues. I will always research on the net the pros and cons of any issue and treatment and find one that suits me. Vets have there good points(example x ray machine) but seem to be constantly preying on your wallet.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Do you know what the breeder's plans are for the dog if you return him? Re-home? Kennel? Breed? PTS? If I were you, I would want to know those details before making any final decision. 

There was one poster here who returned her dog to the breeder and found out later the dog was put to sleep... I can't remember why, but food for thought nonetheless.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I don't think Max is a bad dog at all. He's just not the right fit for your situation at this time. Of course you don't want to risk him snapping at your daughter or anyone else! There is nothing wrong with returning him to the breeder so that he can be placed in a more appropriate home. Although I understand how difficult this is, it's better to do it now, while he's young and before he makes a mistake that is irreversible.


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## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

"But unfortunately, I haven't had the time do the training the way I would have liked. Max had free roam of the back yard and house (while I was with him) and he seems to think he leads the pack now. "



back to the original post. 
you have not been training and your dog thinks its alpha.
get back on training, a harsh correction for being aggressive to you and your children is in order.

www.leerburg.com has a dvd on how to deal with aggressive dogs. It also has a dvd on how to be the pack leader. And another on how to raise a puppy.

get them and learn before you get your next puppy.

any puppy with such skin issues is a breeders fault. return the puppy, get your money back and do some research before getting another.


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## AK9 (Sep 30, 2012)

I am the breeder and I feel very bad. The last thing I want to hear is that he bit the child or anything else. I am offering a full refund and NO I will not take him back to put him to sleep. I will properly evaluate him and put him to work. I honestly think he is too much dog. I just saw his brother a few days ago and he was a very happy playful pup. He needs a daily job.
I am heartbroken also but your daughter is more important than anything and so are you. I am begging you to make the right choice. I would wait and maybe get a dog later with lower drives. It is not your fault but it sounds like he is not getting enough exercise and I hope you don't take this the wrong way. Please bring him back as I do not want anything bad to happen.


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## AK9 (Sep 30, 2012)

any puppy with such skin issues is a breeders fault. return the puppy, get your money back and do some research before getting another.[/QUOTE]

I honestly do not believe any skin issue is the breeders fault.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

AK9 said:


> any puppy with such skin issues is a breeders fault. return the puppy, get your money back and do some research before getting another.
> 
> I honestly do not believe any skin issue is the breeders fault.


I hope you aren't saying you don't think it's genetics. Because I would like to see you prove that.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

to the op. there is no decision to be made here. you have a responsible, wonderful breeder, who is telling you with the voice of experience what you should do. no matter how much this dog is "part of your family", you simply cannot, CANNOT have a dog where there is any question, ANY QUESTION, they might harm you child. just imagine for a moment the trip to the emergency room, the physical damage that could be done to your child, you would never, ever forgive yourself. it is also your job to protect this dog until you can return him, and manage his environment without exception, so he will not carry a label for life that is not his fault. i know you are attached to him. i know this might make you feel like a failure in some respect. doesn't matter. do the right thing.


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## AK9 (Sep 30, 2012)

I am not going to argue on here about the skin issue. If he is returned he will go straight to my vet and we will get to the bottom of this. It really does not matter right now if it is genetic, fleas or allergies. I think what matters is the safety of this beautiful young girl.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

AK9 said:


> I am not going to argue on here about the skin issue. If he is returned he will go straight to my vet and we will get to the bottom of this. It really does not matter right now if it is genetic, fleas or allergies. I think what matters is the safety of this beautiful young girl.


You are to be commended. Going above and beyond.


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

Hi alex so sorry you have to made such a hard decision I know how much you wanted this pup. I agree with everybody to return max. You have a lot on your plate right know plus you probably wont ever feel like you can trust Max around Briana anymore.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Andy, kudo's to you AK9 for offering a return and refund..


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

AK9, you are to be commended for the way you're handling this. Some breeders would automatically blame the owner for a situation such as this, and make all kinds of excuses not to refund the puppy price. You obviously have your priorities and ethics in order.

To the OP: I've had to re-home dogs before, it isn't easy but sometimes it must be done for the safety of the family members, and for the good of the dog as well. 

FWIW, I don't think *all* skin issues are genetic in nature, but that's neither here nor there.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

AK9 said:


> I am the breeder and I feel very bad. The last thing I want to hear is that he bit the child or anything else. I am offering a full refund and NO I will not take him back to put him to sleep. I will properly evaluate him and put him to work. I honestly think he is too much dog. I just saw his brother a few days ago and he was a very happy playful pup. He needs a daily job.
> I am heartbroken also but your daughter is more important than anything and so are you. I am begging you to make the right choice. I would wait and maybe get a dog later with lower drives. It is not your fault but it sounds like he is not getting enough exercise and I hope you don't take this the wrong way. Please bring him back as I do not want anything bad to happen.


I wish every breeder were this responsive to their puppies and their buyers.

Good job, AK9!

To the OP. You are not "giving up" on this puppy. You are wisely recognizing your current limitations and making the best decision for everyone involved including the puppy. 
Sheilah


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

You have a very nice breeder that cares about their customers. You should listen to what they are saying, they are trying to help you. :thumbup:


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## AK9 (Sep 30, 2012)

I would never blame him. That would not be the right thing to do. Right now my priority is the safety of the child. It is up to him but I think it would be in the best interest to return the pup. I will also promise to keep him and everyone else updated on his aggression issue and skin issue. If it is genetic it is genetic and there is nothing I can do about it now. I just don't want to take a chance as we are talking about a young child. PLEASE return him.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

sit said:


> I wish every breeder were this responsive to their puppies and their buyers.
> 
> Good job, AK9!


I agree with sit,stay! AK9, I'm glad you joined this discussion!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It really does sound the best and a wonderful offer. Sounds like a fine pup that needs a lot of structure and leadership and a job. 7 months is just the tip of the iceberg. As he ages he will become much more confident and full of himself. Now he is malleable and can be set on the right path by the right handler.

I know myself and a SAR teammate have dogs with very strong personalities and working drives. Great working dogs but if we did not have the free support of a group of K9 officers to help us guide our training, we would be *so *much over our heads. For every hour of scent training I do, I have to put in 2-3 of obedience and it is a major commitment. If I had a young child, mine is not the dog I would want even with his good temperament...

Take the offer and be very grateful would be my advice!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Great advice all around to OP. Except for this...this is *not* how you should go about "training" a dog to not resource guard. The best way to do that is to, everytime you walk to the dog while eating, trade with a higher value treat....so when you approach any time, it think's it's going to get an even better treat than what it has. If you train a resource-guarding dog like stated by Momto2, you can create even worse guarding because the dog assumes every time you come you are going to mess with, or take away his food. Just an fyi


I've trained 5 GSD's this way (4 were high drive), which was always done with a happy voice and attitude, and never had a problem. I guess we all have different methods and I respect any positive training techniques! 

AK9: Thank you for being a responsible breeder.  I know you would be able to find just the right working home for him, if he comes back to you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There is no shame in admitting you are over your head. And, from what you say, your with this dog AT THIS TIME. When your daughter is older and you have a bit more time, then look at getting a dog that you can do sports with. Your breeder, a breeder of high drive protection and police K9's, is fully supporting you and will fully refund you. Take them up on this offer. Do what is best for your daughter and your puppy.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i started touching my dog's food when he was 9 weeks old.
i had other people do it so he wouldn't be reactive to people
placing their hands in his bowl. one day a stranger was standing
in my kitchen. my dog was eating dinner. out of nowhere the stranger
started petting my dog on the head. my dog didn't react. i was glad
i placed my hands in his bowl and had other people place their hands
in his bowl while he was eating. i did the hands in the bowl with my last GSD. 
oneday i sat my daughter on the kitchen floor. i was at the sink.
i turned around to check on my daughter. my daughter crawled over to
my dog's water bowl. my daughter and the dog were drinking water.
i was glad i did the hands in the bowl training.



gsdraven said:


> I agree with everyone else that it is in the best interest of your family to return the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Mog said:


> Now since I started keeping him on lead, training him, etc... over the past 3 days, he seems to have improved.
> 
> 
> > If you can see a difference in 3 days, just imagine what kind of a difference you'll see in 3 months. Some dogs do need more structure than others: need more discipline, NILIF, whatever you want to call it. But if just 3 days can show an improvement then I believe you have hope here.
> ...


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Momto2GSDs said:


> I've trained 5 GSD's this way (4 were high drive), which was always done with a happy voice and attitude, and never had a problem. I guess we all have different methods and I respect any positive training techniques!
> 
> ...


I've also been successful using this method without any problems ... have had a range of temperaments from slug to high drive and one had mega temperament issues when I adopted him. I've only had experience with three breeds and a mutt (1 Cocker, 1 OES, 14 GSDs and 1 Mutt). I got most of them as puppies but it worked with the older guys and the one senior too.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Great advice all around to OP. Except for this...this is *not* how you should go about "training" a dog to not resource guard. The best way to do that is to, everytime you walk to the dog while eating, trade with a higher value treat....so when you approach any time, it think's it's going to get an even better treat than what it has. If you train a resource-guarding dog like stated by Momto2, you can create even worse guarding because the dog assumes every time you come you are going to mess with, or take away his food. Just an fyi


You know everyone has different methods of training.... For over 30 years we have stuck our hands in the food bowls of puppies and made sure that they are willing to give up high value treats at a young age. We give it right back but we have not had one resource guarder of the bunch. I wouldn't suggest it as a way to train an adult dog but with puppies it is the only way to go IMO. Ivan frequently brings me his high value treats hands it to me to look at and I give it right back before he will go lie down and eat it. This is handy because I can check out anything he has before he starts eating it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are certainly many methods to train this pup and have success....the problem is that they are all going to take time and until the training is foolproof, the child is at a certain level of risk.

Down the road, when life is saner and more stable, then get a pup - send Max back to his breeder. If you really want a dog now, then look into an adult from a rescue which has gone through a thorough evaluation...

Just my thoughts - because certainly the dog could be fixed...it is more complex a problem than training methods!

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Alex, I've been in your shoes. It's hard but if for some reason I am unable to give the animal what it needs ... well then I am keeping it for my sake....only? That's not fair to the animal.

As I've delved deeper into the GSD world and met (and cared for) different GSDs/lines I've found that what may be a good dog for one person/family is not for another. This is not necessarily a failure on the owner's part but...let's just say...I'm glad my first GSDs were ASL and then WGSL. Hopefully I'll have a WL in the future.


Also....adding in with the others - big kudos to AK9 for caring about Alex, his daughter and the puppy.


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## Mog (Aug 10, 2012)

*Mr*

Hi everyone,

I want to thank everyone for their advice and time and apologize for the lack of updates since I originally posted this 6 weeks ago...

The advice here came from those with a lot more experience than I have and I want you to know that I read each and every post no less than 10 times. I knew what I should do, but to Brianna and I, Maximus was part of the family. And I wanted to continue working with Max in the hopes we could get past the aggression issues and not just give up on him.

Over the past 6 weeks, I tightened up on his training and I saw a huge improvement in his attitude and aggression issues. I thought with a little more time, we would be able to get past it. 

Maximus was exactly what I was looking for in a pup. He is an incredible looking dog, well behaved except for the food aggression and a great companion. Each night we would sit out on the patio and he would come and lay his front legs across mine and we would just spend time together. 

Unfortunately, Sunday evening, we brought Max upstairs into my bedroom, he went into his kennel and laid down as he always does. Brianna and I went into the bathroom to brush our teeth and then before bed, Brianna usually sits outside the kennel and talks to Max... telling he's been a good puppy, that she's glad he's not going into the garbage, etc... for about 10 minutes, then she opens the kennel door, give him a hug and comes into bed. Well... Sunday she sat down next to his kennel and started talking to Max and Max went crazy... teeth showing, hair up, growling, barking and biting the kennel wall trying to get to Brianna. It scared the **** out Brianna and I. Thank god he was in the kennel, because if he wasn't, he would have seriously hurt Brianna. There was no reason, no instigation, nothing that I can see of that would have made him act like that. This is something Bri has done since we brought him home and he always loved it. 

It was at that point that I realized I couldn't trust Max around Brianna at all. The food aggression I could deal with, just by keeping Brianna away from him while he was eating, but for him to snap like that unprovoked... I knew he could do that at any time... when they were playing tug, goofing off, running around the back yard together, etc... 

I emailed Birgit at AK9 shortly after that happened, explained what happened and asked if her offer still stood. She said yes and we made arrangements to bring Max back last night.

Brianna wouldn't go near Max since Sunday night unless I was by her side. She wouldn't even stay in the room alone with him if he was in the kennel... but she still didn't want to take him back.

It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do... Brianna cried herself to sleep on the way there, I was trying to hold back the tears so I wouldn't make her more upset. Max became a little aggressive when we got there, but we finally got a choker on him and Birgit was able to take him back to one of the kennels. Brianna was in tears crying... 

We made it through the 1am potty breaks, the house breaking, the landshark stage, the rashes, the vet bills and I finally had the dog I always envisioned and here it was, we had to bring him back to the breeder due to an aggression issue I couldn't correct and can't tell if I caused or if it was just in his nature. I feel like if I had the finances, I could have hired the right trainer to correct it, but unfortunately after what we put into Max, that wasn't an option. 

Brianna cried the entire 2 hours home, didn't eat dinner and cried herself to sleep  She started getting upset as soon as she woke up and cried all the way to school, asking if we could go and visit Max... 

I don't know who's more upset, Brianna or I... I'm sitting her writing this with tears in my eyes. I stayed home today, Brianna is at school and the house feels so empty without my buddy  I'm going to spend the day cleaning and putting away Max's kennels, toys, etc... it's just too hard to look at them and I'm sure it will remind Brianna seeing them. 

Before I took Max back, I look at AK9's website to see if they had any puppies available... unfortunately, they didn't and don't have any upcoming litters listed. If they did, I was going to talk to Birgit about possibly getting another pup. I didn't mention it to her as they had none listed on the website, but while we were there, Birgit actually offered me a pup from another litter; that was extremely nice of her and very unexpected. The only problem is that surprisingly Brianna heard us talking about it and between tears Brianna has already asked when can we pick up the new puppy and can we visit Max when we pick him up... Birgit said Max might make a good police dog which Brianna heard, so now she wants to be a police woman when she grows up and she wants Max to be her police dog  Even with tears in my eyes my goofball can always make me smile!

It's going to be hard on both of us... I miss him more than I could explain.

Alex


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You did everything a caring owner could do under the circumstances/constraints you were facing. 

Sometimes things just aren't meant to be and it's really wonderful that you have a breeder who was understanding and supportive and still very positive about Max's future!

Children are resilient and with your guidance your daughter will be O.K. and learn some lessons about how sometimes loving something means letting go.

Please hang in there, the right dog will come into your lives!


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi Alex, I am so sorry this is the hardest thing in the world, but your child comes first. 

I know you are trying to own a dog and have a friend for Brianna, but maybe a working GSD is not right at all. 

Just my 2 cents, but I know 4 families who got golden retrievers for their small children and all 4 families could not be happier as those dogs are incredibly sweet (If chosen properly and we have many training for dock diving and obedience at our club). They are gorgeous dogs and maybe would be easier to handle until Briana is much older? 

They can be a bit harder/longer to train, but at-least there are less issues with aggression. 

Once again I am so sorry, but this is for the best.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well said Neko.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm glad it turned out ok for you. I hope you take your time before getting another dog and research dog behavior a bit more. 



> Brianna usually sits outside the kennel and talks to Max... telling he's been a good puppy, that she's glad he's not going into the garbage, etc... for about 10 minutes, then she opens the kennel door, give him a hug and comes into bed. Well... Sunday she sat down next to his kennel and started talking to Max and Max went crazy... teeth showing, hair up, growling, barking and biting the kennel wall trying to get to Brianna. It scared the **** out Brianna and I. Thank god he was in the kennel, because if he wasn't, he would have seriously hurt Brianna. There was no reason, no instigation, nothing that I can see of that would have made him act like that. This is something Bri has done since we brought him home and he always loved it.


IMO, dogs do not understand being talked too and hugged and eyeballed especially by children. They can perceive a hug as a fight hold, the talk and eyeballing as an intimidation tactic. A dog has a predator mind as much as we love to see them as teddy bears. Dogs are not descendants of primates so hugging is not a calming position for a dog to be in.

Everybody has their own opinions on these things. Through observing my dogs with children, I believe the children have to be taught to respect the dog/dogs or else they can learn the hard way as was the case with your daughter. 

I have like 10-15 dogs go through my house each year and have seen them all interact with a number of children. The children must respect the dogs or the dogs don't want to interact with them. Some dogs will put up with a lot and never strike out at a child. Some will try to hide and some will defend themselves from the perceived threat. If a dog growls once at a child, it is telling the child to keep it's distance. If the child continues to invade the dogs space it can be in serious danger.

Dogs are very intelligent creatures and some can do really well with children. But for them to get along all the time both need to have boundaries enforced by the supervising adults. 

Children simply cannot know what to do so should be shown how to act around the dog. 

You have to accept that this was a fail and go and research before trying again. Sorry but you situation could have been much worse.


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## blueangele (Aug 5, 2013)

Have you thought about rescue? I rescued a white German Shepherd, and before I agreed we had several home visits to make sure he would be ok with my 5 year old. You can talk to Brianna and tell her that because the trainer 'rescued' Max, you are going to return the favor and rescue another dog. I am not saying go to a shelter necessarily, but look at rescue groups. If they are anything like the one that I got Zeph from they ask all the right questions and make sure they are placing a dog with the right family. You would be surprised what is out there! My dog grew up with a family of 3 kids, their 'story' was that their 9 month old was scared of him (I call BS on this one, but oh well), we think that they didn't realize how big the 'polar bear pup' the got was going to get, or that he would shed enough hair to make three Bichon Frese dogs . Yes, he needs some remedial training, but we are working on that and he is thriving. And from what I have experienced, rescue dogs tend to be 'velcro' dogs and know they are being rescued. Try for a 2-3 year old who has proven he is safe around kids and enjoy the fact that you rescued a dog after you were rescued from one that could have caused harm


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

True, Madlab, but there are also some dogs that do really enjoy interacting with children...they seek the play and attention. Kids can hang all over my Smitty dog and he's happy, has an open mouth, tongue lolling out, wiggling his body side to side with his tail wagging wide from side to side (not stiff). He's just loves the attention! 

Ilda is not the same. She's fine with kids but doesn't like being suddenly grabbed or grabbing her around her neck, strangers getting right in her face. To be safe I just don't let kids pet her because kids can be so unpredictable.

Caution is always best though!


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Agree with above as well, rescue could be great! not all dogs are given up because they are bad, some loose their owners to death, divorce, loss of jobs/homes. etc..


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> True, Madlab, but there are also some dogs that do really enjoy interacting with children...they seek the play and attention. Kids can hang all over my Smitty dog and he's happy, has an open mouth, tongue lolling out, wiggling his body side to side with his tail wagging wide from side to side (not stiff). He's just loves the attention!
> 
> Ilda is not the same. She's fine with kids but doesn't like being suddenly grabbed or grabbing her around her neck, strangers getting right in her face. To be safe I just don't let kids pet her because kids can be so unpredictable.
> 
> Caution is always best though!




:thumbup:

My Baily girl taught my oldest son to walk. He would grab onto her fur and walk with her. Now, before some of you people get your panties in to much of a wad...she LOVED it. She would lay beside him, let him grab on stand up and walk SLOWLY. If he fell down, she would lay back down, let him get a grip and repeat the process. Many times she was the one seeking out the contact from them. She loved their messy, grabby, sticky hands and dirty faces.

Not every dog is like this, of course. I don't think parents should expect behavior from their dog, but should instead work with the behaviors of their dogs. I don't let my kids just grab and crawl all over dogs, nor do I just let them do whatever they want, or leave young children a lone with ANY dog, but with some dogs, its actually a joyous thing to have a child all over them and when it is, myself personally, I am very happy with it and couldn't ask for a better dog for my family.


Mog. I am very sorry that it did not work out with your pup. Sometimes, its just not a good fit. :/


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I am so sorry you and Brianna had to go through this. Take comfort in the fact that you did the right thing, for Brianna, your family and for Max too. I hope you are able to get another dog soon.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup GSDolch! They are great dogs. Smitty's love of attention and snuggles is the hardest thing I'm dealing with getting ready for CGC. He's just so happy and wants to be petted by and give big sloppy kisses to everybody! It's hard to get him to stay in a sit when a 'new' person comes to pet him, he gets all wiggly and happy. ....and he's a rescue...


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Aww, I'm so sorry it didn't work out.

You made the right decision for you and your daughter, and Max as well, of course.

I think when the time is right, a new dog will make its way to you, so keep your heart open. 

((hugs))


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sorry to hear it didnt work out. From your description the dog was not ballanced, I dont think you should close the book on a GSD. Look around for a dog with more stability, perhaps a green dog if you have the cash or another pup from good lines.

A nice middle of the road WL GSD should be good imo. There are no excuses for aggression towards a child the dog has grown up with. Most dogs can discern what is a child and an adult. You often see them take a completely different approach with the kids.
Good luck sounds like you did the right thing.


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry for you Brianna. Hoping you two can find some nice puppy. Growing up around dog is great think. Don't give up on gsd.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I think all things considered you were very lucky your daughter wasn't seriously injured, this dog was a ticking timebomb, NO WAY would I have kept this dog after the first snap and growl, the dog plain has a screw loose, no balanced German Shepherd should ever act like that to a family member he was raised with. I grew up with German Shepherds and a large family of 6 siblings, our dogs were never an issue with any of us or any of our friends, we tend to always want to make excuses for unstability, but I don't, plain and simple the dog was a danger and should never be trusted around children. I would not write off the German Shepherd breed though, they are fantastic with kids and if you don't want to go the puppy route, than a nice rescue looking for the wonderful life you would provide is out there just waiting for you to find them!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm so sorry you are both going thru this, especially Brianna who is to little to really understand

I think you did the right thing. Not to stick up for Max in his latest incident, but I can see that happening with alot of dogs that are crated..It's their "space/place" and no room for escape, they are guarding their 'space'..However, the behavior with his "OWN" people, especially your child, is unacceptable .

I commend Birgit for taking the dog back. I think maybe her dogs are to much for what you want in a family dog .

Rescue is a good outlet, there are young dogs around. 

I agree with Larhage, I wouldn't write off the breed if that is what you want, I think you just need to find a dog more suitable for your lifestyle and child..

And hey, I wouldn't write off a different breed either!


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