# How important is it that a breeder WORKS her dogs?



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I'd like opinions on this...

How important is it, in working line dogs, that a breeder actually works and trains her breeding stock versus sending them out to be titled or purchasing them already titled?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I think that is up to you. How important is it to you?

Personally, I think that if someone has done the training and titling before, knows how to do it, then if they later are getting someone else to title the dog or buying a titled dog, then it's not a big deal--they are aware of how it works and is likely to have a pretty good ability to read the dog and pretty good awareness of how the dog behaves in training. 

But if you are buying a dog for some sort of work and the breeder has never done that sort of training/sport/work and never done any sort of training or titling, then that person is going to be much less aware of what a dog is really like and of what are the important characteristics to breed toward or away from for each dog.

That said, if someone is training and titling and breeding their own dogs, I feel an extra bit of respect for that person and their knowledge and breeding program--because it can be the harder path to take, and I believe it does give a deeper understanding of the dog and often, the breed.

Christine


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I never thought of it, and I think you have a good question. I'm no expert, but I think that a breeder that works her own dogs may have a better understanding and insight into what these dogs will need as far as exercise, activity level, and a good insight into their temperament. My breeder does work and title her own dogs, but that had no bearing on my decision to buy one of her pups.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think it depends. Not all handlers have what it "takes" to communicate with dogs at top levels and bring out their full potential. If they are someone who enjoys what they do and makes and effort to train and title them at lower levels (or enjoys competing with their non-breeding dogs), but knows their limitations on what they can do--that is one thing. Someone trying to make money or breed for whatever other reasons? Absolutely not. 

I have ridden and competed horses my entire life. A person can be amazingly knowledgeable, have a genuine love for the breed, and be a great rider. But it doesn't mean that they are a good enough rider to take a young stud with amazing potential and make him competitive at an international level. So, IMO, farm the horse out to a rider who can do that. It's not quite the same thing as the athletic ability that it takes to ride horses and what it takes to train dogs isn't comparable. But it does take that special touch to be truely talented.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

To me.. it's important..

I like the fact that the breeder is taking the time, making the commitment and actually doing something with the dog.. Also they are getting that animal out there to be seen (judged) by all..

I'm also starting to think that the females should be titled to a SchH 3.. There's so much more training/pressure that goes into getting the 3 versus just a 1. To me the females are just as important if not more than the males.. 

Or whatever venue (if not SchH) they are interested in, competing to the higher more advanced levels.

If the dog is bought already titled I'd like to see the breeder (person) continue to work it..


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cassadee7 said:


> How important is it, in working line dogs, that a breeder actually works and trains her breeding stock versus sending them out to be titled or purchasing them already titled?


I don't think it should matter if it's a show or working line. IMHO, a breeder who *only* sends dogs out to be titled and/or *only* purchases dogs that are already titled, isn't really interested in the breed except on a monetary basis...and maybe they enjoy the accolades that come from having a pretty or titled dog.
Don't misunderstand, I don't care if a breeder makes money but I do care if their only interest is the $$.

I would much rather buy a dog from a breeder who trains and handles at least some of time because I think it gives them a better insight into their lines. Titles are great but health and temperament are always more important. The more time a breeder spends with their dogs the more they understand the temperament.

Full of opinions today...must need a nap.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I like to buy working line dogs from breeders who work their dogs. I prefer that the breeder work both sides of the sleeve also. It is also a bonus to me if they train and place dogs for some real world work.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

The breeder has to train and compete or how are they going to be able to breed their dogs in a knowledgeable way and they aren't going to be able to support their puppy buyers. 

Breeders that don't train and compete, IMHO, are no better than backyard breeders out to make money by just throwing two dogs together and hoping for the best.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't understand how you can get deeply enough into working line dogs to want to breed them, without wanting to work them?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Some opinions I have regarding this...

Now there is an "Ideal" breeder and that should be what we strive for, but I think there are also programs that turn out worthwhile dogs that could still maybe use some improvement in different places. In the end I think when it comes to purchasing a puppy it's about your satisfaction with the product. If you're comfortable with how they do things...then you're comfortable with it. 

Now.

People who buy already titled dogs and do not continue to title/compete are buying breeding stock. The dogs are purchased to produce puppies. That is it. End of story. Is this good or bad? That depends on more factors. I've known breeders who work the males and purchase the females with complementing pedigrees and qualities. It's generally not possible for anything but a very small breeder to work and compete with ALL of their breeding stock. But a breeder who ONLY buys breeding stock and doesn't work at all...is not necessarily someone I would trust to make decisions about my puppy. 

To me sending the dog out to be trained is not quite right either. I think this bothers me in part becuse of the situation you see in some kennels where the dog is sent to Germany knowing nothing...comes back with a SchH3 and a Koer rating and still doesn't seem to know what the dumbbell is. Just saying. 

I know some people do not have the dog skills to handle their own dog. But if you don't have the dog skills to train...why are you a breeder?? I suppose I understand that you might not have the skills to go to Nationals...but with time dedication and putting that money into solid coaching you should be able to achieve your titles. You don't have to be a National competitor to be a breeder in my book. 

I guess to me there's SO much you learn when you train your own dog that is more important than the matches you can make on paper based on pictures and pedigree.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I think that is up to you. How important is it to you?
> 
> Personally, I think that if someone has done the training and titling before, knows how to do it, then if they later are getting someone else to title the dog or buying a titled dog, then it's not a big deal--they are aware of how it works and is likely to have a pretty good ability to read the dog and pretty good awareness of how the dog behaves in training.
> 
> ...


 
I completelyagree with this. 

You hope that they are researching the dogs that they are just buying due to names and titles. Breeding dogs off names and titles won't guarantee you a great litter. You hope they are doing more quality research into the bloodlines and seeing what different generations bring to and take away from the bloodline.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> But a breeder who ONLY buys breeding stock and doesn't work at all...is not necessarily someone I would trust to make decisions about my puppy.


THIS is my main concern and the reason I asked the question. I love a lot of the qualities of the working line dogs, but am not going to be doing SchH myself. But temperament is very important to me. I need someone who really knows what their dogs are capable of, what their nerves are like, how they react, etc... but I do not need to know about how they do on the SchH field. Can a breeder be in tune enough, and know and understand the dogs enough if she has them living on her property and interacts with them daily but does not do SchH or any other dog sports with them? That is something I am mulling over in my head. 

Very good points have been brought up here. I think I have more faith in the breeders who handle, train, work, and title their dogs, or at LEAST take their titled dogs and continue to work them. If a breeder is in it because they love the breed, love the dogs, want to breed for good health and temperament but have no desire to work the dogs... well, I guess that can be okay too, it is a lot to think about. I think there can be "good breeders" who care about their dogs but don't work them, but I am not sure I understand that mindset and not 100% certain if they could choose a pup for me with the temperament I desire. Still thinking.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> I know some people do not have the dog skills to handle their own dog. But if you don't have the dog skills to train...why are you a breeder?? I suppose I understand that you might not have the skills to go to Nationals...but with time dedication and putting that money into solid coaching you should be able to achieve your titles. You don't have to be a National competitor to be a breeder in my book.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I like what "Christine" said How important is it to you? etc.

For example, when I bought my aussie it was the intention to do obed/agility/herding. The breeder herself, did only conformation with her dogs, as that was her "love", however, her breeding program had alot of working dogs behind them, she had also been producing alot of dogs that went on to gain herding/agility/ obed titles as well as conformation titles. So while 'she' herself was not 'into' what I was "into",,she was producing dogs that were versatile and fit the bill for me at the time

If I have something specific in mind, I'm going to a breeder who is breeding that specific, hopefully, trait . I do like to see breeder's work and title their own dogs, but sometimes that's not feasible for whatever reason. 

While alot think you can't really tell working ability without working the dog (I agree with this), I do think a breeder who's been in it for a long time, and can peg their puppies, CAN give a good prediction when it comes to temperament.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> While alot think you can't really tell working ability without working the dog (I agree with this), I do think a breeder who's been in it for a long time, and can peg their puppies, CAN give a good prediction when it comes to temperament.


I agree with this.. 

There's a lot of factors to be considered when purchasing a puppy.. And titles don't always, automatically make a dog breed worthy as a lot of us know..


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> JKlatsky said:
> 
> 
> > I know some people do not have the dog skills to handle their own dog. But if you don't have the dog skills to train...why are you a breeder?? I suppose I understand that you might not have the skills to go to Nationals...but with time dedication and putting that money into solid coaching you should be able to achieve your titles. You don't have to be a National competitor to be a breeder in my book.
> ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me, it's more important that a breeder work dogs than breed titled dogs, but so far every breeder I've considered for a working line dog has done both, and often at a high level. 

Likewise with show lines, if a breeder insists their dogs can also "work", then put up or shut up. I used to think the rumors about fake titles and "midnight trials" were exaggerated but I personally have seen dogs "trained" and titled in Germany that won't engage a helper at all or do a sit without a leash correction. The other thing is that a lot of good helpers aren't going to waste their time and mess with a dog's psyche by working dogs that aren't cut out for it. I've seen videos that supposedly prove German or Am Line showlines are good at Schutzhund but the helper work and handling is very questionable. There's a HUGE difference between doing it, and doing it well (or correctly).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I actually think we're on the same page.  I certainly think that all breeders need to work and train their dogs...but not necessarily be the one to title them every single time if someone else is more capable. But absolutely they need to know the sport they have chosen and the dogs they are breeding like the back of their hand. I'm actually not at all a fan of horse people or dog people just shipping their animals off and leaving it at t hat. I just don't think they need to be the ones that do 100% of the titling.

Ugh..I just cringe at the "well off" folk who do the same things with horses. Buy a bunch of nice horses to breed and try to make money off of....yet couldn't put a bridle on the horse, put on studs, or hack it in the field if their life depended on it. There a plenty of those, and I'm definitely not advocating for them!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are the horses actually trained though? That would be one thing. Many of these dogs coming back would not pass a club trial in the USA. Who knows what is really going on over there, if they are being given gifts with their scores, or just buying fake titles...

There are lots of Schutzhund people who will buy a dog when it's green, or partially trained, or even has a title and then go on to finish the dog or compete at a national or international level. All fine and good. To me that is different than a breeder who has never competed in a Schutzhund trial, or only titles (or pays for titles) to get a V rating and breed survey. 

Me personally, I will never send a dog away for training. No way. If I can't train how I want then I just find something else to do with the dog or don't have it. No one touches my dog but me unless they have expressed permission and my supervision (ie, every once in a while I'll let the club TD do some obedience with my dog to demonstrate something). If my dog gets corrections, I want him to know where they are coming from (me) and why.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I can't even let/trust someone I don't know trim my dogs nails...how on earth could I send s/he away for training???
Agree totally with Lies & JKlatsky!!


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree with most of what has already been said. Everyone else is saying it better than I can anyway!

Frankly, I think people are often too focused on the titles and whether or not they are there rather than _how _and _why _those titles were achieved. Titles do not make the dog, and an honest breeder who works, understands, and truly knows the dog and its background will be able to tell you more about a dog or breeding than any number of titles.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I can't even let/trust someone I don't know trim my dogs nails...how on earth could I send s/he away for training???
> Agree totally with Lies & JKlatsky!!


Hey, thats how I feel deep down, just know there can be justifiable reasons it's not done. NO ONE was ever allowed to ride my top level competition horse. One day during a client David O'Conner, a multiple time medal winner at the Olympics wanted to get on my horse and give him a school. I seriosly almost had a conniption fit and grinned from ear to ear when David didn't make him work any better. Is there sign for evil devil horns?


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Rei said:


> I agree with most of what has already been said. Everyone else is saying it better than I can anyway!
> 
> *Frankly, I think people are often too focused on the titles and whether or not they are there rather than how and why those titles were achieved.* Titles do not make the dog, and an honest breeder who works, understands, and truly knows the dog and its background will be able to tell you more about a dog or breeding than any number of titles.


Yes. There's nothing like the embarrassment felt all around when a "Schutzhund I" dog takes the field after being "titled" elsewhere, the helper cracks the whip, and the dog runs off the field (as I've seen happen twice). Another time, one of the dog's owners tried to practice the obedience phase with the "titled" dog. Wouldn't heel, wouldn't sit, wouldn't down. The owners later told us that the trainer said their accent wasn't correct. Riiiiiight.

Hmm...did the dog "earn its title" after an evening of cognac and fine cigars between two old friends? Interestingly, all of the dogs I have mentioned were females. Quickly titled for a quick sale? You be the judge, our lines are open...

One instance that I can understand is where a breeder is physically unable to handle dogs anymore, due to an injury for example. But the people I am thinking about are extremely accomplished in the GSD world, whose advise I value without question.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is the experience of the getting of the titles that I think could be important. I want the breeder to have gotten titles and or trained and placed dogs in working jobs. Really have found a lot knowledge in those who have worked both sides of the sleeve with success, trained dogs with real world jobs, etc. Preferably have some years of experience with the lines of dogs they are breeding also. 

I have seen people send nice working dogs away for training. It seemed to work out fine. Sometimes one just can not get it all done. But once again, probably the breeders knowledge enabled them to choose appropriate situations for this!

Again, it is not so much what the breeder is doing as it is who the breeder is to me. What is their experience in working and training, their knowledge of dogs and bloodlines? And then on top of that... how do they apply that knowledge?


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I think that it is fairly important. BUT that said...all circumstances must be taken into consideration. Judge's breeder does not title her dogs herself anymore. She has in the past and still works them every week. She has also placed a few patrol dogs so I have the utmost respect for her and her opinions about puppies and dogs in general. However, physically she is incapable of the pressures of a trial. She has had knee surgery, open heart surgery and a few other ones in the last few years and she is pushing close to 75. 

I feel that as long as they HAVE titled dogs before and continue to work their dogs themselves to have a better idea of what they have, then it is OK. 

But that is my take on it. Shawn- I recommend that you at least get a puppy from someone that works their dogs even if they don't title them. But that is just my opinion.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I personally believe it is very important.

Now, with that said, I will tell you that Stark's breeder (whom I LOVE) has just started to work her dogs.

When I first brought Stark home, I really didn't know what I wanted to do with him. I knew I wanted to do some obedience with him and possibly dabble in agility but I didn't have a direct route I wanted to take as far as training and working was concerned.

Now that I have been involved in SchH (agility as well a bit) I *KNOW* what attributes I want/need in a dog if I want to succeed in the sport - which I would like to do.

Stark is great at tracking - amazing actually - enjoys protection and isn't all that bad at it but SUCKS in obedience (lacks enthusiasm for the work). I love this boy but he really could care less about working, if he were to be a "house dog" and spend his days louging or playing in the back yard, he would be content. That is not my (or his) life though. We are active and participate in sport.

I know that when I am ready for another dog, I want to ensure that I get what I want/need for my purpose (schH & active companion). I would like a dog who WANTS to work and gets excited about working - this I need to see from his parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts - I want to see if there is a pattern of enthusiastic working dogs, etc.. I want to see if they are sucessful in what they do, etc.

I think it is important to put these breeding dogs in a multitude of situations and "test" them to see how they react/thrive.

I will use Wildhaus as an example, her dogs not only participate in schH but do other activities as well and are excelling in pretty much every area they go. That, to me shows me that her dogs are doing the work, enjoying the work and are bred to excel in the work. Yet, they are also loved members of the family who can "chill" at home with them.

I think it's important so that breeders know they are only brining the best of the best into this world to carry on the lines.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I know that when I am ready for another dog, I want to ensure that I get what I want/need for my purpose (schH & active companion). I would like a dog who WANTS to work and gets excited about working - this I need to see from his parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts - I want to see if there is a pattern of enthusiastic working dogs, etc.. I want to see if they are sucessful in what they do, etc.


I agree with this COMPLETELY! I have been searching and reading and talking with different people trying to find "the right dog" and it isnt easy. You can very easily title one dog from a liter but that doesn't mean it comes from good breeding or will continue to have good lineage. 

Thats the problem I have ran into here in Houston. There are breeders that have titled one or two of there dogs but they dont push past the local level. They stay here and are even involved at high levels locally but I dont know that I would trust them to pick a pup for me. Plus I get the feeling that even though they breed only once a year to me they are still BYB's because they breed their own dogs. 

Thats one of the reasons I want an older dog. With a puppy you are buying potential. With a dog you are buying what they already are. 

My problem is I just dont trust people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it makes sense for all lines of GSDs for the breeder to train the dog to at least some level of competance in something.

Would this be something I would require, yes/no, whether or not I would buy a pup? No.

I think it begs more questions really. 

If the breeder has a number of dogs that he/she has trained to a level of competance, and adds a dog that is already trained, sure it would be good to see them doing something with the dog, but not necessarily required. 

The process of training a dog tells us a lot about the dog. I have put titles on dogs I will not breed. And the process of training and titling them provided me with the information I needed to know about that dog. But I think an experienced individual can assess a dog's temperament without going through the process with them.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I think the thing I would say to that Sue, is how does one become experienced without actually working the dogs? How do you know how far you can push a dog (determining temperament/nerve/working ability), under what circumstance does the dog thrive/crumble?

I want a breeder who has gained the experience by doing not by watching someone else do it. 

Not sure if what I am saying makes sense - been training all day with Stark so my mind and body is mush right now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the trainer has trained a group of other dogs to that level, they can study this dog and assess the dog without going through classes and titles with the dog. I think with any dog, you need to get out there with it and put it through its paces.

I think a breeder who has the experience with others of her dogs, has the experience. That just leaves what the breeder knows about THIS dog. I think some people could make the assessment relatively easily and others propbably could not.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the dog brings much to getting titles but if the handler doesn't have the passion or commitment, then the dog won't get very far.
Many of the owners of Karlo's breeder pups DO work their dogs, and that is why they are excelling in everything they try. Though of course genetics play a huge part in it-the owners chose the breeder carefully and wisely


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

It all really depends on how important it is to the buyer. 

I believe it is important that the dogs who are being bred are worked to show that they are breeding quality. But to me, _who_ it is that is working them wouldn't really matter. Just because it is not the breeder who works them doesn't mean that they don't have a passion for the dogs. Maybe they simply don't have the time to get involved in working the dog. Maybe they have a full time job and a family to take care of as well but still have a huge love and passion for the GSD and improving the breed. If they have someone else title their dogs I don't see anything wrong with them breeding proven working dogs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I feel it is very important for a breeder that is producing and selling dogs for work to work their dogs. I have never understood how someone can produce and pick working dogs when they have no concept of what is involved. Actually I have seen the results way too often. The breeder not being a good handler is just an excuse. Not having time, another excuse. If you don't have the time to work with your dogs than you don't have the time to properly rear a litter. Too old?? I watched an almost 88 year old man trial at the regionals this past weekend. Or look at Jason Lake. These two should be an inspiration for all. Wanting big scores because people only breed to dogs that compete in big events? Only in the USA. The quality of the dog shines through despite the performance or the training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me it's not just about what *I* want in *my* dogs but what I am willing to pay money to promote. When I buy a working line dog I want to promote breeding programs of experienced people who train and title their OWN dogs and then breed dogs from their OWN program. That's important, to me.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Rei said:


> I agree with most of what has already been said. Everyone else is saying it better than I can anyway!
> 
> Frankly, I think people are often too focused on the titles and whether or not they are there rather than _how _and _why _those titles were achieved. Titles do not make the dog, and an honest breeder who works, understands, and truly knows the dog and its background will be able to tell you more about a dog or breeding than any number of titles.


Good point. That is something that Gabor has said before. Many dogs are titled, but how did they get there and how are they?

To me, it is important and I had believed and said that for years. Taking care of your own dogs, having your dogs live with you, training you dogs and titling - that completes the circle. Having someone else train and title the dogs; it is hard to really know, no matter how it is explained, etc. the experience is different. 

No matter what the level of the handler or dog, you learn from that situation - for both you and the dog.


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## eidna22 (Aug 5, 2010)

I have to agree that training and working with your own dogs before breeding is important. I know exactly what my dogs strengths and weaknesses are and knowing that has helped me choose a complimentary stud to make some puppies who will hopefully have it all but it may be 1 or none. I think if you just send your dog off to be titled in 8 weeks and it is forced or just gotten over with quickly then there is just a money factor there. I love to see HOT behind any SchH title personally. IMHO though.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I think it is very important, especially if the breeder works the dogs in areas that they were bred for. For example, a breeder who breeds in the herding group works them in herding. What was the dog bred to do? Herd. What kind of dog do you want? A herding breed. It just makes more sense that since you want a herding puppy that the parents have titles and awards in herding activities. It shows that the parents have strong bloodlines for what the breed was done to do. It is definitely important.


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