# Desperate for help!! GSD has bitten neighbor and stepson



## Stacey650

My GSD rescue Sam has been with us for 7 mos. He is now 15 mos. I have tried EVERYTHING. 2 trainers, active use of the NILIF protocol. Sam is getting better with other dogs and does listen to me as I have had to use alpha training. He has now bitten 2 of my neighbors and today my stepson! I had to keep him on leash when he entered house, tried moving him over slowly, calm voice and praise. finally he sniffed him and seemed fine, nex t minute lunged and bit his leg!! What am I doing wrong. I train him constantly, very consistent. He has come a LONG way and learned a lot of obedience but aggression getting worse, should i keep muzzle on him around people in the house. I love him and do not want to give him up. PLEASE HELP!


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## RazinKain

are these young children he's biting?


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## Stacey650

No, my stepson is 25, but he did lunge at a neighbors son, about 13. However< i did tell him ok to approach and pet. my fault.


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## Elaine

Stacey650 said:


> He has now bitten 2 of my neighbors and today my stepson! I had to keep him on leash when he entered house, tried moving him over slowly, calm voice and praise. finally he sniffed him and seemed fine, nex t minute lunged and bit his leg!! What am I doing wrong. I train him constantly, very consistent. He has come a LONG way and learned a lot of obedience but aggression getting worse, should i keep muzzle on him around people in the house. I love him and do not want to give him up. PLEASE HELP!


If your dog is so dangerous that you don't let people into your house without putting him on a leash and then he still bites, you are in denial. This dog, by your own admission, has bitten three people and his aggression is getting worse. What are you waiting for? What happened to another member here's nephew? This isn't going to be what you want to hear, but put the dog down.


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## Good_Karma

What kind of bites are these? Is he drawing blood or leaving marks?


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## carmspack

not clear in the head , there was no reason . has had a lot of chances with you, who knows what he did before you took him on . 
do you think one day he will get you?
Carmen


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## onyx'girl

What do you do when he bites? Who is with him at the time? Have you had lab work done to rule out medical?

I have a female that may bite(never has yet), so I don't let people come up to her, she can do the first sniff and is ok after that. She is fear aggressive and has anxiety/energy that has to be contained.
I know she is a liability, and manage her to the best of my ability.
I will not ever let her be near children and know if she ever does bite one time, that will be the end.
Sometimes we have to decide what is best for the dog, and keep them isolated, or their life will be cut short. Sad but true.

Onyx went for a walk around the neighborhood with me the other night, and she did much better than I expected.
But if someone were to approach her, she would go into the fight or flight mode, and because she was on a leash, the fight mechanism would kick in. I have to basically micro-manage her. 

If you want your dog to live a long life, then really it is up to you to manage the behavior and don't let Sam be set up to fail. Don't think he will ever be a social dog, because he has already proven he doesn't have the nerve for it.
Many times all the 'training' in the world won't help a dog with unstable temperament issues.
I feel for you, but you need to decide what is best for the dog, and the people who live with him.
Onyx will defer to me and my family members and has gotten so much better with maturity, but is still a liability, IMO.


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## KZoppa

Elaine said:


> If your dog is so dangerous that you don't let people into your house without putting him on a leash and then he still bites, you are in denial. This dog, by your own admission, has bitten three people and his aggression is getting worse. What are you waiting for? What happened to another member here's nephew? This isn't going to be what you want to hear, but put the dog down.


 
i think i have to agree with Elaine on this one. Your dog is a biter and a liability because of it. 3 people is way too many people. especially if he just did it with no real indictation or warning growl. Thats a dog who is unpredictable. I can understand leashing your dog when you have company come over and you're training the dog to do any number of things like not bolt out the door, not pester company past say a minute, not to chase the cat... the list goes on. But if the dog doesnt accept welcome company, thats dangerous. With 3 bites, i'm amazed you even still have him considering animal control is usually notified and most areas have a one bite can be an accident but not two. You've worked with trainers and he's still behaving this way. Something isnt right with him and honestly, as his owner, that would cause an intense amount of stress for me constantly wondering who he would try to get next. Some dogs just have problems you can fix with training.


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## Mom2Shaman

I understand how hard this is. We had one female who was highly reactive and a biter. She came to us at 5 without us being told the true reason (attacking children who visited). We spent 5 years keeping her away from people, limited who came into our house and how those who came in acted around her, our cats took some punishment, I had her teeth in me in a minor way about 5 or 6 times. Finally, at 10 her aggression to cats, dogs, people had intensified as her arthritis of aging had her in pain. We had to let her pass. It was really hard, but some time later we brought in a new dog and he has been perfect 100%. We realized how much of our life we limited because we wanted to give her a chance. Either you must 100% keep the dog from people or you must help him pass. You can't risk the liability. It's sad, but some dogs really have a short circuit from genetics or their past environment. Sadly, human life does outrank that of a dog. It's rather nonnegotiable.


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## selzer

This is a puppy. Whatever type of training you are doing may not be the best for this pup. Are these bites that are breaking the skin and needing stitches, or is the dog seriously mouthy? The reason I ask this is that I have a puppy that has been gone for five months and is now back. She is fifteen months old. And she is mouthing my hands like crazy -- no blood -- this is NOT aggression. But if this was my first dog, I might think it was. 

So, before we euthanize this pup, it would be good to know what is going on with the bites themselves. Are they breaking the skin, is there bruising, is the hair up when this happens, is there snarls, growls, show of teeth before, are the lips drawn back or forward during? I am guessing it happens fast, but it can mean two different things. 

1. If the pup has something physical, thyroid, b-vitamin, not sure what all, that can be diagnosed and treated with meds/vitamins, that is the first thing.

2. If this is a fear/response, than alpha training is not going to help a lot. MOST bites do have more to do with being unsocialized, fearful in the situation, than dominant aggression. If he is fearful, continue NILIF, and continue to train him, but set him up to succeed and praise him for it, build his confidence and build his socialization experience, muzzled if necessary, not to the point of people touching him, but him in a variety of situations where he is not hurt. Try to keep it positive.

3. If this is a dominant/aggressive situation, I wonder if you are right for this pup. Sad because unless you find the right person with full disclosure to take him and work with him, your options are really limited. 

Remember thought that this is a youngster. If three people have headed off to the ER already, well, I think you need to maybe think about taking him to the vet, and doing what needs to be done, sadly. But if these are inhibited bites out of something that might be worked on, well maybe he has a chance. 

Good luck with the puppy. We do not know what happened to him before you got him, but that is over and done with, you cannot change it, and he is living in the moment. He probably was not socialized, which makes your job harder, but do not give him the you-poor-thing treatment because of what MIGHT have been his previous situation. At the same time, if you are alpha rolling this puppy, you might end up in the ER.


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## Rerun

He needs to be euthanized.

Whether you do it humanely and in a calm, professional manner yourself, or wait for the county/city to seize him when he bites the wrong person is up to you. They'll quarantine him most likely in a shelter, in a crappy little cell of of cage, where he'll have to wait until it's deemed ok to put him down. Then he'll be removed from the cage, likely by a catch pole given the bite history, dragged to a little room and you hope your county/city humanely euthanizes (still scary for the dog especially when done by strangers) vs a heartstick or gassing shelter.

Put him down yourself humanely. Don't wait for someone to do it for you.


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## Mom2Shaman

I'm really sorry. It's not a pleasant answer. Yes, Selzer is right. Could this be medical? See the vet for a full everything. Could this be fear or just inappropriate mouthing? Are these serious attack-type bites? What did the two different trainers advise? You rescued the dog, what does the rescue say/advise? How does the dog react to you? Are there ever teeth shown, and I mean ever for any reason. How about your spouse? Is the dog 100% safe with all dwellers of your home (human and animal)? Is it JUST strangers? 

Your only option IF the dog defers to you and all residents of your household and your household is 100% safe is to crate the dog at any time when someone else enters the home. The dog cannot be in public. EVER. No one can EVER pet the dog. You will need if you must walk in public a DO NOT PET vest. Do not allow people to touch the dog even if they ask. EVER. I used to take our girl into closed campgrounds in the mountains during the off-season. Nothing but me, her, our other dog who had learned to avoid ticking her off, and bears (I counted on her for life and death protection). You must make sure your fencing is inpenetrable and all gates are padlocked at all times. Your front door must have a safety door. It is a tremendous stress saving a risky dog. It is your responsibility, at this point, to 100% ensure the safety of all people either with extreme accomodations or by helping the dog pass. Do not leave yourself or others at risk. 

I hope I do not sound callous, because I absolutely have done this. We learned, she learned, we accomodated. We coped for 5 years because we couldn't put down a healthy dog. We did not have family or friends visit unless I could lock her away in a room with a do not enter sign. She had a comfortable limited life. So did we. Really, it is what you can cope with. 

Again, don't leave yourself or other household dwellers at risk. If you or your common household members are not 100% safe, you must help the dog pass. In that case, you just have NO option. 

I'm sorry but you really have to do some responsible situation analysis in this case and face some hard choices.


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## Elaine

selzer said:


> This is a puppy.


At 15 months, this is no longer a puppy. This is a dangerous dog and she will lose everything she owns when he bites the next person who sues her for knowing he was a biter and allowing yet another bite.


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## doggiedad

find a behaviorist and use a muzzle. what
do you do when use alpha training???


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## RazinKain

Elaine said:


> At 15 months, this is no longer a puppy. This is a dangerous dog and she will lose everything she owns when he bites the next person who sues her for knowing he was a biter and allowing yet another bite.


I agree with Elaine. But, aside from a lawsuit, this dog could seriously injure or possibly kill a youngster. It's obviously mentally unstable and has a proven history of biting. I wouldn't take any chances with this dog. Sadly, I would put him down.


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## Stacey650

Although I appreciate the input, putting him down is not an option for me. He is friendly with neighbors he does know, and dogs as well. perhaps i should have added that in. all of the bites were scratches, none of them broke the skin. if we are in public he is fine, just when people come into the house. I have been reading prev thread about a GSD named Victor and if I have to crate him when folks come by, that may have to become the routine. My husband and I are safe. He was not like this when we first adopted him, just seemed to escalate. I am definately not alpha rolling the dog, just let him know that I am in charge. everything is done with love, no harshness. Perhaps I should have given a more detailed history. I know he will never be a social dog but there is no way I will put this dog down.


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## RazinKain

Stay vigilant then. Good luck.


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## carmspack

well if everything is so okay , why are you desparate for help ?

Carmen


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## selzer

Elaine said:


> At 15 months, this is no longer a puppy. This is a dangerous dog and she will lose everything she owns when he bites the next person who sues her for knowing he was a biter and allowing yet another bite.


I have two fifteen month old, almost sixteen month old PUPPIES. Sorry, but they are not mature yet. Right now this dog's aggression seems to be getting worse? Though he is getting better with other dogs. I have no idea what this dog is actually doing and neither does anyone else on this thread, there is not enough information to euthanize.

Whitney BIT my sister according to her. She was offering steak through the chain link and Whit was a little over-zealous. I suppose I should have put her down post haste. It did not break the skin. Kill, kill, kill. 

Milla needs to be put down too. I was handing out hotdogs at 1AM last night along with their dinner. Milla got my finger along with her hot dog. I put on a good stink, but I should take her out and shoot her, or take her to the vet and kill her that way, I guess. 

The Doberman in class last week took a chunk out of its owner -- an experienced obedience person playing with his tug with him. Blood too. kill, kill, kill. 

If a mature dog bites without any provocation, I can understand putting them down if you have tried other things. I do not like putting down dogs that have not yet reached their adult temperament, which for males happens between two and three years generally. 

This is a puppy. I prefer to think that we may be able to make a difference in puppies. What happened with that bull-mastiff was awful, it was a mauling. I do not get the impression that this dog is mauling anyone. The OP did not post -- "help my son needed 100 stitches and plastic surgery..."

I am kind of shocked that so many people are willing to encourage someone to euthanize their puppy with so little information -- three sentences? four?


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## carmspack

the dog bit a neighbour , yet the dog is friendly with neighbours it knows. How many introductions or interactions does it take to become familiar and not get bitten .


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## carmspack

I am sorry . I made a mistake . He bit two neighbours . Generally homes have two neighbours, one on each side . Plus you said he seemed okay sniffing your relatives leg , and then , without provocation he lunged and bit -- .


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## katieliz

not really possible to get an accurate assessment of a dog's temperment on a message board. it is possible to manage a dog's environment tho so that he never, ever, has a chance to get himself (and you), in trouble. it's taxing and it's difficult and a whole lotta responsibility, but it can be done.


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## RazinKain

the dog also bit the step-son, whom was welcomed into the house. And not just a bite, but a lunge bite. The OP did state that she has already tried EVERYTHING, but the dog's aggression is progressively getting worse (as the dog's size, strength, and potential to cause greater injury is also increasing).


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## KZoppa

Stacey650 said:


> Although I appreciate the input, putting him down is not an option for me. He is friendly with neighbors he does know, and dogs as well. perhaps i should have added that in. all of the bites were scratches, none of them broke the skin. if we are in public he is fine, just when people come into the house. I have been reading prev thread about a GSD named Victor and if I have to crate him when folks come by, that may have to become the routine. My husband and I are safe. He was not like this when we first adopted him, just seemed to escalate. I am definately not alpha rolling the dog, just let him know that I am in charge. everything is done with love, no harshness. Perhaps I should have given a more detailed history. I know he will never be a social dog but there is no way I will put this dog down.


 
Stacey, you should REALLY talk to Leslie about Victor. I know she and her husband went through a great deal with him. They tried everything with him that they could reasonably do and in the end it was not only less stress to put him to sleep, it was the safest option. Victor was a healthy dog but mentally unstable as far as aggression went. I will let you know she may be tough to get a hold of right away though. I know she's trying to spend more time away from the computer. If i recall, Victor wasnt aggressive when they first got him either. Victor's aggression kept escalating as well and he was a young boy as well. Leslie tried everything to help Victor. Some dogs are great and social. Some dogs are less social with outsiders but will tolerate them. then there are ones who quickly become unpredictable and dangerous to those around them. Scratches can easily escalate to something way worse and from your posts, he doesnt seem to give any kind of warning when he just goes for someone. Thats dangerous. be careful.


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## selzer

Sometimes we can be so helpful, and sometimes, the people on this site, can be really snarky when you do not run out and do everything they suggest. 

I think you are right to try to nip this in the bud. 

I would be very careful with even the neighbors he does know, until you can figure out why he is acting this way. 

I second calling the rescue and asking them for some help.

I think NILIF is a good idea. 

I think that taking the dog to dog classes every week at least once a week is a great idea. If obedience gets tedius, go for rally or agility. Agility is great for dogs who need to boost their confidence. 

Any chance of finding a behaviorist?

I do not think your puppy is beyond hope, but I think that determining the type of aggression is first in order to deal with it properly. 

If these bites are scratches, then the dog IS showing bite inhibition. He may be resource guarding -- you are the resource. There are so many scenarios, and it is simply not fair to sit here and try to diagnose. Trainers are good, but a behaviorist might be a better match. 

Lots of exercise,
Lots of training
Good leadership
Vet visit
And a behaviorist that maybe can help you understand why the dog is having this issue, and have tips for you to work on.

There are some good books out there too. Help for the shy dog -- Deborah wood, The dog listener - Jan Fennel. Other decent author: Patricia McConnel, and a bunch of others. 

I wish you luck. Please do not give up on this pup, and just keep him under wraps. This is a cry for help, the dog is not in a good, safe frame of mind. And if it gets worse, you can be in a world of hurt. I think you are not at the point of no return here. But you do need to address it and work through it.


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## DharmasMom

This forum amazes me sometimes. A member will get castigated for suggesting putting down an elderly dog with multiple, multiple health problems and not trying extreme measures to save him. People will then come in and IMMEDIATELY suggest a young, healthy dog be euthanized for "biting" without knowing all of the facts or extent of injuries. Incredible.

ETA: I agree with everything selzer is saying and think she is the most rational one in this thread right now.


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## Stacey650

Thank you to those who have encouraged me. I do believe that he nedds to mature a bit more, I will not give him the chance to bite again, will always have him under control. I was also discouraged that so many people were quick to say euthanize your dog.


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## Stacey650

A big thank you to seltzer and dharma's mom for their encouragement. Was beginning to wonder if this forum is right for me.....


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## Jax08

Debbi...let it go. You know **** well that nobody was advocating for anything other than more than 2 days and some bloodwork to see exactly what his medical problems were so stop trying to paint us as some horrible fanatics and dragging it in to another thread that is completely irrelevant.

OP - you have a problem. A potentially severe problem. Please get a medical work up done on your dog and a GOOD behaviorist/trainer. Is your dog reacting out of fear? Is your dog just hard wired incorrectly? You need to get a professional in to evaluate your dog. Do you have a schutzhund close near you? I would call that club and talk to them to find a good trainer that understands German Shepherds.


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## DharmasMom

Stacey650 said:


> A big thank you to seltzer and dharma's mom for their encouragement. Was beginning to wonder if this forum is right for me.....



I think everyone is a little more sensitive than usual as a member's nephew was mauled by a bull mastiff just the other day. The mauling was EXTREMELY severe and the child nearly died. I do agree with everything selzer said though. Taking on this dog is a HUGE responsibility and possible liability but I believe it can be done. I would also take advice from the members here who HAVE aggressive dogs and manage them if that is the route you end up choosing to take. Good luck, I really do wish you the best. 

What is the dog's name, btw? You may have posted it but I missed it.


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## DharmasMom

Jax08 said:


> Debbi...let it go. You know **** well that nobody was advocating for anything other than more than 2 days and some bloodwork to see exactly what his medical problems were so stop trying to paint us as some horrible fanatics and dragging it in to another thread that is completely irrelevant.
> 
> OP - you have a problem. A potentially severe problem. Please get a medical work up done on your dog and a GOOD behaviorist/trainer. Is your dog reacting out of fear? Is your dog just hard wired incorrectly? You need to get a professional in to evaluate your dog. Do you have a schutzhund close near you? I would call that club and talk to them to find a good trainer that understands German Shepherds.



Jax, I am merely pointing out that the dichotomy of the attitudes on this forum is incredible and never fail to astound me. There were posts made calling to euthanize the dog without even asking for all of the info on the situations. Or what kind of help the OP was looking for exactly.


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## ken k

DharmasMom said:


> This forum amazes me sometimes. A member will get castigated for suggesting putting down an elderly dog with multiple, multiple health problems and not trying extreme measures to save him. People will then come in and IMMEDIATELY suggest a young, healthy dog be euthanized for "biting" without knowing all of the facts or extent of injuries. Incredible.
> 
> ETA: I agree with everything selzer is saying and think she is the most rational one in this thread right now.


Roger that


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## RazinKain

Stacey650 said:


> Thank you to those who have encouraged me. I do believe that he nedds to mature a bit more, I will not give him the chance to bite again, will always have him under control. *I was also discouraged that so many people were quick to say euthanize your dog*.


Everyone on this forum loves dogs, especially the GSD. We're not eager to see any dog put down, but this problem of yours isn't something that just sprang up lastnight. Your dog has bitten (3) different individuals with one being a welcomed guest & family member, and to your own admission, the aggressiveness is getting worse. Again, I'm sorry that you didn't like some of the quick advice you were given. I sincerely hope everything works out for you and your dog. Please keep all children away from your dog.


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## Jessiewessie99

I would rule EVERYTHING else before opting to putting the dog down. The dog is still young and there is a chance he can be helped. I would seek advice from a GSD rescue, a behaviorist/trainer that specializes in GSDs.


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## Ruthie

DharmasMom said:


> This forum amazes me sometimes. A member will get castigated for suggesting putting down an elderly dog with multiple, multiple health problems and not trying extreme measures to save him. People will then come in and IMMEDIATELY suggest a young, healthy dog be euthanized for "biting" without knowing all of the facts or extent of injuries. Incredible.
> 
> ETA: I agree with everything selzer is saying and think she is the most rational one in this thread right now.


I am amazed as well! How in the world can you tell someone to put their dog down based on a short post on a forum? That is insane.

OP, get some professional help to try to determine the cause of the biting. THEN determine the best course of action. In the mean time don't give an opportunity for another bite to occur.


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## wyominggrandma

All I am going to say is its a shame that a biting GSD is so common these days and seems to be accepted so readily with different reasons: resource guarding, health, herding, playing, etc.
And the common reply is " trainer, behaviorist, let it mature, keep it away from people in your house, etc.
What happened to a person letting the dog know that the house is Mine, the food is Mine, other people are above the dog and you accept that, people can walk in the house because its Mine. I am the boss and YOU the dog will accept what I am saying and doing without question. It seems that so many people are so afraid to dicipline their dog anymore and only want to show them love and kindness and no dicipline that these same dogs are taking over the owners lives. Nobody can come in the house, kids can't come around, strangers can't pet your dog, the dog tries to lunge and bite kids and strangers.... I just don't understand WHY its okay for your dog to bite someone for any reason.
My grandkids walked into my home two weeks ago, Holly has not seen them since 9 weeks old. She is now almost 8 months old.She greeted them with wagging tail and kisses. My daughter, her boyfriend and his two children, both under ten, arrived today and opened the back door and walked into the yard to play with Holly. She had NEVER seen them before, nor the boyfriend. What did she do? Ran up, wagging tail, and gave kisses and played with them. I had absolutely no qualms about these strangers approaching her, playing with her toys, or feeding her. Holly has gone most places with me, including work since she was a baby, and has always been handled by strangers, both kids and adults. She has happily gone into a doggie day care with strange dogs and played for hours with no issues.
It is what I expect of her and she accepts it. It was how I trained my first GSD to do search and rescue. It is how I train all my dogs, they go along with my life and my rules and are healty stable happy dogs.
To me it is sad to see so many pages and pages of GSD that are aggressive, that have bitten people. Just because its a scratch doesn't mean the dog is not trying to do more damage. IF the OP is holding the dog on a leash and its still "biting" a person and scratching, what would be the result if this dog was not on a leash and could freely bite? I am sure you would be seeing significate damage then.
This dog sounds unstable and with many issues. If the OP wants to spend her life with a dog that she can't take anywhere, can't trust to even have family in the house, will attack the neighbors, then that is her choice. 
I have always thought the reason to own dogs is to be able to enjoy them and take them places, have family and friends in the home and have a dog that enjoys interacting with their family no matter where they are or who is standing there.
I expect that this dog will at some point get the chance to really attack someone, and I hope the OP is ready for the conquences, nobody can be on guard 24/7 without a slip up for the next ten years or so. Sometimes you have to make a decision that is best for everyone concerned, including the general public, and more specifically your family. For every dog that has severe temperament issues and is a biter, there are ten more waiting for a home without the liability of owning a biter.


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## JPF

Ruthie said:


> I am amazed as well! How in the world can you tell someone to put their dog down based on a short post on a forum? That is insane.
> 
> OP, get some professional help to try to determine the cause of the biting. THEN determine the best course of action. In the mean time don't give an opportunity for another bite to occur.


Exactly...the best course of action is to not ask a forum this question. Get a objective opinion from a behaviorist. And people, before saying lets end a dogs life, get all the facts. And no, you cannot possibly make that decision based on a Internet post.


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## DharmasMom

wyominggrandma said:


> All I am going to say is its a shame that a biting GSD is so common these days and seems to be accepted so readily with different reasons: resource guarding, health, herding, playing, etc.
> And the common reply is " trainer, behaviorist, let it mature, keep it away from people in your house, etc.
> What happened to a person letting the dog know that the house is Mine, the food is Mine, other people are above the dog and you accept that, people can walk in the house because its Mine. I am the boss and YOU the dog will accept what I am saying and doing without question. It seems that so many people are so afraid to dicipline their dog anymore and only want to show them love and kindness and no dicipline that these same dogs are taking over the owners lives.
> .



I'm curious, what kind of "discipline" to you recommend for a dog that may have fear issues or even true aggression? How exactly to you go about letting the dog know the house and everything in it is "yours"?


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## Mom2Shaman

> What happened to a person letting the dog know that the house is Mine, the food is Mine, other people are above the dog and you accept that, people can walk in the house because its Mine. I am the boss and YOU the dog will accept what I am saying and doing without question. It seems that so many people are so afraid to dicipline their dog anymore and only want to show them love and kindness and no dicipline that these same dogs are taking over the owners lives.


However, the dog has been to two different trainers. The issue of discpline has to have been addressed unless the OP just flat out ignores all the training principles. However, I am a bit concerned the owner has given the dog opportunity. You can't say the dog bit a neighbor who wanted to pet it, "oh, my bad". That's not responsible enough. But I digress, apparently, the dog is fine with the owner/spouse. It's people entering the house that is the problem.



> Holly has gone most places with me, including work since she was a baby, and has always been handled by strangers, both kids and adults. She has happily gone into a doggie day care with strange dogs and played for hours with no issues.
> It is what I expect of her and she accepts it. It was how I trained my first GSD to do search and rescue. It is how I train all my dogs, they go along with my life and my rules and are healty stable happy dogs.


This, of course, is ideal. However this is a 15 month old rescue dog who has been with the family 7 months. Who knows what the early life of the dog was. Could be anything from positive to neglectful to negative. 

There really are so many factors to address. Is the dog neutered yet (thinking yes from being a rescue), what is known about the animal's past, are there any health concerns or forms of chronic pain, does this dog have trouble with only male humans who enter the house, is this a scratch or a puncture bite, etc, etc. Sure, a short post on a forum does not give enough info. 

IF the dog is a danger to the family too, just an outright "gonna snap at anyone anytime" kind of dog, then letting him pass is the responsible thing. IF the dog is a danger to strangers in general, it can be managed but it is a major responsibility with absolutely ZERO room for errors. The lifestyle modifications need to be pretty extreme and consistent. All members of the household must be dedicated to the protection of all humans during any contact with the dog. IF the dog only has a problem with people coming into the home, yes, perhaps a behaviorist can help, or crating, or making sure gates are locked, the door has a security door, etc. Again, there simply must be ZERO room for errors. The OP cannot put herself legally and morally at risk. However, as the OP said, putting the dog down is not an option. OK -- seek a behavorist/trainer familiar with GSDs and rescue dogs. Until then, you simply must not give the dog any opportunity to bite. Do not allow someone to pet it, do not have people come into the home with the dog loose or even on a leash, secure your perimeter to make sure people cannot get in, post signs of warning, get a DO NOT PET vest for any public walks. If you want to keep the dog, it's time to really up the level of responsibility. Leave nothing to chance.


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## blehmannwa

I did a lot of fostering for pit bull rescues. That's where most of my dog experience comes from and I think that it skews my perspective. I see every dog with severe issues such as biting and fearfulness as taking up a spot that a more stable dog could fill. It's a harsh perspective but informed by the plight of pits and the liability issues of homing them.

OP, I wish you luck and I admire your commitment to your dog. Explore every avenue--management, meds, behaviorists, more training. You'll get a variety of opinions here but there is really no way to tell the extent of the problem without direct observation. 

That said, people make their own decisions and compromises. Sometimes problems are not fixable but they are manageable. Responsible owners can adjust to the dog's limits. I have a neighbor who crates and rotates. I have a friend that advises people to never turn their back on her dog--it bites butts. I'm not fond of these dogs but obviously their owners have a relationship with them and it's made more intense by the fact that these dogs are not good pets and if surrendered would likely be PTS.


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## bellamia

wyomingrandma, i agree to everythng u said.! wanted to say all of that but u beat me too it! i realize its nt a popular opinion but hope that reason can be seen.


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## vat

DharmasMom said:


> This forum amazes me sometimes. A member will get castigated for suggesting putting down an elderly dog with multiple, multiple health problems and not trying extreme measures to save him. People will then come in and IMMEDIATELY suggest a young, healthy dog be euthanized for "biting" without knowing all of the facts or extent of injuries. Incredible.
> 
> ETA: I agree with everything selzer is saying and think she is the most rational one in this thread right now.


OMG I was thinking the same exact thing and was gonna post it! Yes Selzer has given some excellent advice. Is there a professional in the area that can help you and get him check by the vet as well.


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## JakodaCD OA

First I'd like to say a couple things, That "member" that darmasmom alluded to, was ready to put the dog down within two days of receiving him. There were NO blood panels done from what I understand, to guage exactly what was wrong with him, I don't think vets are body scan readers just by looking at a dog and saying "he's on his way out". There was NO way to know his true age, in my opinion he didn't look as old as was suggested. There was NO WAY to know exactly what was going on with him physically.

People were upset because after two days, the member was ready to put him down, but hey, it took a week 

We have ALL seen posts of senior dogs who came to whomever, in really bad shape, and ended up living another couple years once proper care was given. 

As to this dog biting, Absolutely not exceptable!!! I do not condone dogs biting/lunging for no reason. Can he be managed? Sure if you have the right owner and are on him 24/7.

I would FIRST do a complete vet workup , to discount medical problems, then I would find myself a GOOD behaviorist to evaluate him..And MANAGE MANAGE MANAGE, until you can get a clear picture of what's going on with him..He should be under owner's strict control in ALL situations at this point.


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## krystyne73

Stacey650 said:


> Thank you to those who have encouraged me. I do believe that he nedds to mature a bit more, I will not give him the chance to bite again, will always have him under control. I was also discouraged that so many people were quick to say euthanize your dog.


Sorry long story
I am glad to see you will not be putting your pet to sleep. I have a Great Dane that has bitten several people not counting my 3 people in my own family. I got him as a mature pup and he had bitten his other family so they were scared and I took him in. I did the same thing and tried trainers to help him, I also used DAP as suggested by the trainer. Nothing worked. He was a silent biter and you never knew when he would strike.
It has taken ME years to even let my step daughter near him.

You will learn with a dog like that you need to walk him late at night or very early when no one is around. Gate an area in your home or always crate him when other people are near by,... etc. Other people that he is nice to think I am making it up but he chooses who he likes and I can never be relaxed enough to trust him completely. I have never been able to read into his aggression or what makes him try and attack. 
Just be aware, lots of training, even if it doesn't appear to work (I didn't do that, I gave up the first year) and you will always need to put safety of the people first. 
Max is sweet with me and calm most days, but he can easily snap into a biting dog so it is easy to forget to be on guard at all times. Luckily besides a minor bloody bite to my husband last year (he swung the front door open to fast and Max was waiting) we have not had any bites for almost 8 years. 
Best of luck!


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## middleofnowhere

What a long thread! 

Selzer's first post is the best advise.

What is going on sounds like a high drive dog in a home inexperienced with high drive dogs. They can be mouthy as all get out and the wrong trainer can just exacerbate that rather than channeling it or extinguishing it.

Why not seek out a local or nearby schutzhund club or other working club? They likely could recommend an appropriate trainer that could help direct this pup. Even talking to club members might assure the OP about which direction to take.


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## fuzzybunny

Selzer has given some great advice. My dog Bunny use to be dog aggressive. We started seeing mild aggression at around 15 months and it escalated to the point were I honestly believe she would have killed another dog if given the opportunity. We found a private trainer in our area and we worked really hard with her. That was 3.5 years ago and she no longer has those issues. There is hope. I realize it's a different situation because your dog has bitten people but I think there are preventative measures you can take in the meantime (crate, muzzle, etc...) while you search for a different trainer who can work with you and your dog. Good luck.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

middleofnowhere said:


> What a long thread!
> 
> Selzer's first post is the best advise.
> 
> What is going on sounds like a high drive dog in a home inexperienced with high drive dogs. They can be mouthy as all get out and the wrong trainer can just exacerbate that rather than channeling it or extinguishing it.
> 
> Why not seek out a local or nearby schutzhund club or other working club? They likely could recommend an appropriate trainer that could help direct this pup. Even talking to club members might assure the OP about which direction to take.


Agree - it could be mouthy, it could be prey or herding - especially the leg but since we can't see, we don't know. 

I would contact the rescue you got him from. They may have people that they use for things like this. 

I don't know what alpha training is but it sounds...like it's not working.  You can try a Schutzhund club but not all are created equal. What you want to try to find is a good behaviorist, experienced in herding and dogs with natural civil aggressive behaviors (why the pitbull comparison doesn't work) who will work to create a plan with you, that reflects your dog, using positives to teach your dog, incorporating other methods as needed after the dog truly understands what is expected of them. 

As for the dichotomy that might fly if the exact same people posted on each thread saying the opposite things.


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## Tihannah

I'm sorry you're going through this, OP. I agree with others that you should see a vet and behaviorist first and foremost. Several years ago before I had kids, I adopted a 1.5 yr old Rottweiler from a friend with 3 young children who said she didn't have time for him anymore. Since he was raised with a family and small children, I thought it would be okay to take on this 140lb massive male. In 3 days, he bit 2 people and tried to bite another. Both bites were scratches but tore through their clothing. I made her come get him immediately.

It was later that found out that she'd mostly kept him locked up on her fenced in back patio, when she deemed him to big for the kids. He was completely unstable and you could see it in his eyes the couple seconds before he attacked. She gave him to a man that owned a couple Rottweilers and felt he could handle him. I ran into that man about 6 months later, and he had a giant chunk missing from his left arm. He said he was simply going out to feed the dogs, and the rott attacked him. Instead of putting him down, he sent him to is brother, apparently another experience rott person?? I don't know what happened to the dog after that, but when I saw that man's arm, I was so relieved that I did not try to keep that dog.

The OP hasn't really described the attacks, and I don't think she knows the degree of her dog's behavior yet. The rott was clear as day, he needed to be put down. I think her best option is to let someone with the background and experience to evaluate the dog, and then go from there. Best of luck!


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## Mrs.K

> First I'd like to say a couple things, That "member" that darmasmom alluded to, was ready to put the dog down within two days of receiving him. There were NO blood panels done from what I understand, to guage exactly what was wrong with him, I don't think vets are body scan readers just by looking at a dog and saying "he's on his way out". There was NO way to know his true age, in my opinion he didn't look as old as was suggested. There was NO WAY to know exactly what was going on with him physically.


And I'd like to say that there is a LOT of UNTRUE SPECULATION GOING ON!

I've already had the dog for three days when I made that statement, he was ALREADY seen by a vet and he was examined. He DIDN'T eat, vomitted blood and could barely walk. And from the night of Wednesdays to Thursday he completely shut down, his legs gave up and I had no CHOICE but to put him to sleep. There was NOTHING that could have been done and it would have been torture to keep him alive. I've had him for six days and did everything I could to make him comfortable and keep him going. 

NONE OF YOU HAVE SEEN THAT DOG! NONE OF YOU WERE THERE!

YOU SPECULATED WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT KIND OF TESTS HAVE BEEN RUN AND WHICH HAVE NOT!

YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIS EXAMINATION SO QUIT SPECULATING AND SPREADING RUMORS AND LIES THAT ARE SIMPLY NOT TRUE!

Just like you don't know **** about the dog in this topic! 

_* * * Removed by Moderator * * *_


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## Lauri & The Gang

*Keep this thread on topic or it will be closed.*


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## Mom2Shaman

If you look through everyone's statements and squint a bit, you see this:

Is the dog downright dangerous? If so, he should be put down.
Is this owner willing/able to be vigilant 24/7+ for the rest of the dog's life? It can be managed with lifetstyle modifications, a behaviorist, neutering, vet evaluation, etc.

Whether the comments were to pts or manage, every single person is trying to stress the importance of dealing with this issue strongly and not casually. The OP called the situation "desperate". The OP did not give anymore details than that the dog "bit" three people. Many of the people of this board (myself included) have faced this situation. Each owner in such a case has to evaluate the dog and their own dedication to it and the actual degree of danger to self and others. It is a massive responsibility, it is stressful to constantly be on guard, you have to know when enough is enough, you simply cannot risk human life because you love the dog and don't want to put it down. 

Don't let this dog be a statistic. Don't let it hurt a person and get put down in a horrible manner by strangers. Don't give any person the horrible fear and pain and long recovery from a dog bite. Don't let a family lose a child to a dog. Don't lose everything you own by being sued. Don't rack up another point for GSDs as killers. Don't give legislators another number to use to outlaw the GSD breed. We see that law makers are now proposing and passing breed-specific dog bills. 

So everyone suggested how they personally would handle it from their past experiences. That's what happens on every thread on a message board. No matter what, everyone is trying to stress the absolute magnititude of this situation.

I (and I assume all other members) do not want to see a future post: Desperate, my dog killed a child and I am being charged OR Deperate, my dog just tore a huge chunk from my leg and I am typing from the hospital room OR GSD dogs banned nationally due to their viscious nature. 

This is BIG. No matter how you meet it head on (PTS, vet eval, meds, lifestyle changes, training/behavioral work) you simply cannot have this kind of statement about the situation "he did lunge at a neighbors son, about 13. However< i did tell him ok to approach and pet. my fault." This is BIG, this is SERIOUS. The people here don't know how experienced you are, how dedicated you and your family are, how serious the bites actually were. 

Whether you cannot "do this one" and have to give up or pts the dog or you can and are willing and can manage, you simply MUST do so. 

Best wishes, I myself have done this.


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## sagelfn

I agree with Jean





wyominggrandma said:


> All I am going to say is its a shame that a biting GSD is so common these days and seems to be accepted so readily with different reasons: resource guarding, health, herding, playing, etc. *It is a shame to figure out what is causing the behavior to fix it?*
> And the common reply is " trainer, behaviorist, let it mature, keep it away from people in your house, etc.
> What happened to a person letting the dog know that the house is Mine, the food is Mine, other people are above the dog and you accept that, people can walk in the house because its Mine. I am the boss and YOU the dog will accept what I am saying and doing without question. It seems that so many people are so afraid to dicipline their dog anymore and only want to show them love and kindness and no dicipline that these same dogs are taking over the owners lives.
> *Unfortunately that attitude does not fix a dog with genetic flaws in temperament.*
> Nobody can come in the house, kids can't come around, strangers can't pet your dog, the dog tries to lunge and bite kids and strangers.... I just don't understand WHY its okay for your dog to bite someone for any reason.
> *Who said biting was acceptable? I've never seen that on any thread on this board ever.*
> My grandkids walked into my home two weeks ago, Holly has not seen them since 9 weeks old. She is now almost 8 months old.She greeted them with wagging tail and kisses. My daughter, her boyfriend and his two children, both under ten, arrived today and opened the back door and walked into the yard to play with Holly. She had NEVER seen them before, nor the boyfriend. What did she do? Ran up, wagging tail, and gave kisses and played with them.
> *Your dog isn't aloof. You have a golden retriever in a GSD body so I don't think you have any place to judge others with "problem" dogs. If that is how you expect all GSDs to greet a stranger then good luck finding correctly bred GSDs to greet all strangers so happily.*
> I had absolutely no qualms about these strangers approaching her, playing with her toys, or feeding her. Holly has gone most places with me, including work since she was a baby, and has always been handled by strangers, both kids and adults. She has happily gone into a doggie day care with strange dogs and played for hours with no issues.
> It is what I expect of her and she accepts it.
> *She does not accept it because you say so. Dogs are not robots. Just happens that you have a dog with a temperament suitable to your wants.*
> It was how I trained my first GSD to do search and rescue. It is how I train all my dogs, they go along with my life and my rules and are healty stable happy dogs.
> To me it is sad to see so many pages and pages of GSD that are aggressive, that have bitten people.
> *It is sad, lots of bad breeding out there*
> Just because its a scratch doesn't mean the dog is not trying to do more damage. IF the OP is holding the dog on a leash and its still "biting" a person and scratching, what would be the result if this dog was not on a leash and could freely bite? I am sure you would be seeing significate damage then.
> *Not always. Many dogs are only "aggressive" on leash*.
> This dog sounds unstable and with many issues. If the OP wants to spend her life with a dog that she can't take anywhere, can't trust to even have family in the house, will attack the neighbors, then that is her choice.
> I have always thought the reason to own dogs is to be able to enjoy them and take them places, have family and friends in the home and have a dog that enjoys interacting with their family no matter where they are or who is standing there.
> *Maybe for some, maybe not for others. Some adapt their wants when a dog doesn't fit the mold.*
> I expect that this dog will at some point get the chance to really attack someone, and I hope the OP is ready for the conquences, nobody can be on guard 24/7 without a slip up for the next ten years or so. Sometimes you have to make a decision that is best for everyone concerned, including the general public, and more specifically your family. For every dog that has severe temperament issues and is a biter, there are ten more waiting for a home without the liability of owning a biter.
> *So are you suggesting anyone with an "aggressive" dog or a dog with whatever you define as severe temperament issues put it down and get a dog with solid temperament or just a dog in a shelter who may or may not have solid temperament? Is separation anxiety acceptable or should I just tell the dog I'm leaving you be calm and expect the dog not to go bat  crazy and injure itself trying to escape a crate or any number of typical behaviors from SA dogs? Should someone put the dog down because of that? My dog is a bit fearful. He can meet strangers. Sometimes he's not comfortable and I don't make him meet someone. Should I force him to go over his threshold (maybe eventually leading to a fear bite) and cause him to react because I want a dog that happily greets everyone? Next time he doesn't want to meet someone I'll try telling him "hey Sage you say hello, wag your tail and give her a kiss" would you like to help us test this? If he fails I can just put him down and get another dog who doesn't have problems :rolleyes2:*
> 
> *Seriously..one of the worst most disappointing posts I've read in a long time. I'm actually shocked that someone so "knowledgeable" can have such a lousy thought process on dog training and behavior.*


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## codmaster

Interesting discussion here - and a very tough one to make a call. Without seeing the dog in person (and in action) impossible!

That said, I don't think that I could keep a dog that I could not trust esp. around my own family! And I could not foist off a truly dangerous dog on a shelter or anyone else just to rid myself of the problem.

This is a decision that I would not wish for anyone!

One small note: for those who suggest a behaviorist and/or a trainer to work with the dog - would you then trust your child, or loved ones, with the dog after the training is done?

If not, and you advocate the dog still needing "management" - is it worth it given the number of deserving well tempered dogs needing a new loving home?


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## clearcreekranch

DharmasMom said:


> This forum amazes me sometimes. A member will get castigated for suggesting putting down an elderly dog with multiple, multiple health problems and not trying extreme measures to save him. People will then come in and IMMEDIATELY suggest a young, healthy dog be euthanized for "biting" without knowing all of the facts or extent of injuries. Incredible.
> 
> ETA: I agree with everything selzer is saying and think she is the most rational one in this thread right now.


Gets my vote too.


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## Jax08

Codmaster - I think whether I would trust the dog with my family depends on what exactly is going on with him. If the aggressions continues to worsen, and he is a true danger to those around him, then NO, I would not allow this dog around my children, or anybody's children. If he's been mismanaged and this is something that was brought on with poor training then Yes, I would allow this dog around my family but still would not allow him around strangers or outsiders. I don't know if I would euthanize him, it would depends on the severity of the aggression and whether it was something that could be managed. Not all can be.

OP - did I read you adopted him from a rescue? I think you need to discuss this issue with the rescue. You may be obligated to do so under your contract.

If he is so aggressive that you would consider giving him up then you probably should make the choice to euthanize him. If you surrender him to a shelter under these conditions they will put him down, probably as soon as he walks through the door. It would be kinder to him to take him to a vet and make his last moments quiet and calm than allow that to happen to him. If you allow another person to take him then you need to fully disclose his background or else you could potentially put another in danger. However, as you've said, euthanizing him is not an option but please keep this in mind if you decide to rehome him or surrender him. But this is the reality of those options.

So, if this were me, I would get a medical work up done first. See if you can find out the parents background. Were they aggressive? Fearful? That is really important to see if this is genetic. Find a good trainer. As I said previously, I would look for a local Schutzhund club and ask who their trainers are. I've had great success with my dog once I did that. They are familiar with the breed and with high drive herding breeds.


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## Mac's Mom

I’m sorry you’re facing this challenge. I applaud your commitment to this dog. Having the dog put to sleep would not be an option for us either until we exhausted every alternative….which is clearly what you are trying to do. Good luck.


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## The Packman

Stacey650 said:


> I will not give him the chance to bite again, will always have him under control. I was also discouraged that so many people were quick to say euthanize your dog.


Stacey when I read people suggesting that you put your _baby_ to sleep, I almost fell off the floor. (here at a GSD website of all places) You know you have a dangerous K9 on your hands, so the only 100% safe solution is to keep him away from other people...it's that simple. I'd rather live with that then have a early _'plot'_ in my back yard.


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## Jack's Dad

What momtoshaman said. 

There are obviously different views on the value of the life of any given dog.

All I can say is do whatever you think is right but beware of the possible consequences.

Its interesting to note here about people complaining about lawsuits and the reputation of the GSD. It's a pretty safe bet that if a dog is a known biter, regardless of the reason they bit, and then they go on to do some serious damage their will probably be a law suit and the reputation of the GSD will suffer 

If my children or grandchildren were seriously injured by one of these dogs regardless of breed all **** will break loose.

Humans and other dogs have more of a right to be safe than someones right to own any kind of dog regardless of the dogs temperament. 
In my opinion


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## wyominggrandma

Well excuse me sagelfin, I didn't realize I could not post my opinion without your permission. I have had many many GSD and some have been aloof. I have trained for S & R, obedience, tracking and police work. What is wrong with having a GSD that actually likes people. If that makes her a Golden retriever in a GSD body, then so be it, I at least do not have to worry about a biting dog, nor have any of my GSD's bitten anyone. If that makes my post disappointing, then whatever. I SAID what I like and what I have: a dog, a GSD that enjoys being an active part of my life, that goes and does things that I do, that greets everyone with a happy wag, this is what I WANT. If others don't choose to have that kind of temperament or that type of attitude, then can do what they want and have the dog that they want.
I did not say put the dog down, I said sometimes you have to make a decision based on the reality of the dogs temperament for safety of family and the public. If the OP is happy with the type of dog she rescued, then good for her. Good that she wants to continue working and loving this dog. But, that does not mean some people want a happy dog that actually enjoys being happy. NOT ONCE did I tell anyone how to train their dog, I said how mine is trained, how all of mine have been trained. I have never had to beat, hit or pull my dogs off of other dogs or humans. I have never had to worry about them lunging at children. I have brought up ALL my dogs, of all different breeds to just accept life as it comes to them, with accepting that they learn to deal with different scenerios as they happen. 
GSD get a bad rap, and with so many with an attitude of biting it just makes it worse.Most likely the dog was given to rescue for biting, but the rescue was not told of that problem. Not many people of any breed will give a dog up and say its because they bite, since most, if any, rescues won't take them. 
I said if the owner wants to deal with never allowing the dog a chance to have a normal life since it can't meet strangers, can't meet people in the house, that is her choice and her liabiltiy.
Working at the jobs I work at, I have been bitten multiple times by supposed family dogs that "go off" because a door closed, or a person walked by it, or anything a well adjusted dog would accept. Its not fun to be bitten badly enough to have stitches, but it is what happens. 
So,sagelfin, sorry my post was so disappointing to you. " I talk about personal experience when I post, whether about health issues or training or whatever. If my experience in dogs for over 45 years is not good enough to post on this forum, then guess what? You can just be "disappointed" in my knowledgeable.


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## sagelfn

wyominggrandma said:


> Well excuse me sagelfin, I didn't realize I could not post my opinion without your permission.
> *I didn't say anything like that. I critiqued your statements. Anyone is more than welcome to do that to mine.*
> I have had many many GSD and some have been aloof. I have trained for S & R, obedience, tracking and police work.
> *Which is why I am shocked that you do not understand finding reasons for behavior is not the same as excusing behavior. That some dogs have genetic flaws in temperament and merely "laying the law down" does not work with all dogs.*
> What is wrong with having a GSD that actually likes people. If that makes her a Golden retriever in a GSD body, then so be it, I at least do not have to worry about a biting dog, nor have any of my GSD's bitten anyone.
> *I did not say that I said this* - Your dog isn't aloof. You have a golden retriever in a GSD body so I don't think you have any place to judge others with "problem" dogs. If that is how you expect all GSDs to greet a stranger then good luck finding correctly bred GSDs to greet all strangers so happily.*- meaning if you expect all GSDs to greet the same way then good luck because the breed standard calls for aloofness not happy tail wagging kissing greetings.*
> 
> If that makes my post disappointing, then whatever.
> *What makes your post most disappointing is this.. *For every dog that has severe temperament issues and is a biter, there are ten more waiting for a home without the liability of owning a biter.* Suggesting that people opt for a dog free of their problem dog (either by rehome or euthanizing). There are also dogs with health issues from easily manageable to dogs needing constant care which might cramp your style. I'm sure for every one of those there are also 10 healthy dogs in shelters needing homes. So basically I am disagreeing that because a dog is "difficult" or has a "problem" it is okay to get rid of them by some means because other dogs that are fine need a home.*
> I SAID what I like and what I have: a dog, a GSD that enjoys being an active part of my life, that goes and does things that I do, that greets everyone with a happy wag, this is what I WANT. If others don't choose to have that kind of temperament or that type of attitude, then can do what they want and have the dog that they want.
> *Others do not always choose to have a dog with temperament (health also but lets stay somewhat on topic) what happens more often is a dog you love and is part of your family developes issues or issues progress. For some people (the good ones  ) giving up the dog because it is "difficult" is not an option.*
> I did not say put the dog down, I said sometimes you have to make a decision based on the reality of the dogs temperament for safety of family and the public.
> *You are right you did not actually say "euthanize" or any words that mean put the dog down. Anyone reading your post would still think you meant put it down or rehome it..rehome not being likely though.*
> If the OP is happy with the type of dog she rescued, then good for her. Good that she wants to continue working and loving this dog.
> *Actually your post started off complaining that it is a shame that when dogs display this behavior people start figuring out what is causing it instead of just telling the dog how it is going to be no ifs ands or buts. ( I paraphrased that)*
> But, that does not mean some people want a happy dog that actually enjoys being happy.
> NOT ONCE did I tell anyone how to train their dog, I said how mine is trained, how all of mine have been trained.
> *And I pointed out that your methods do not work for dogs with genetic temperament flaws.*
> I have never had to beat, hit or pull my dogs off of other dogs or humans. I have never had to worry about them lunging at children. I have brought up ALL my dogs, of all different breeds to just accept life as it comes to them, with accepting that they learn to deal with different scenerios as they happen.
> *You have had stable dogs capable of doing so. You seem to not realize not all dogs are capable of this. It is not a training issue. It is clear from your posts you would not keep a dog like this. *
> GSD get a bad rap, and with so many with an attitude of biting it just makes it worse.Most likely the dog was given to rescue for biting, but the rescue was not told of that problem. Not many people of any breed will give a dog up and say its because they bite, since most, if any, rescues won't take them.
> *I agree*
> I said if the owner wants to deal with never allowing the dog a chance to have a normal life since it can't meet strangers, can't meet people in the house, that is her choice and her liabiltiy.
> *Who is saying that this dog can never be fixed or improved? No one even knows why the dog is acting this way. Dogs do not need to meet strangers to be happy. *
> Working at the jobs I work at, I have been bitten multiple times by supposed family dogs that "go off" because a door closed, or a person walked by it, or anything a well adjusted dog would accept. Its not fun to be bitten badly enough to have stitches, but it is what happens.
> *And shame on the owners for not having their dog under control. They should be working on improving their dog's behavior.*
> So,sagelfin, sorry my post was so disappointing to you. " I talk about personal experience when I post, whether about health issues or training or whatever. If my experience in dogs for over 45 years is not good enough to post on this forum, then guess what? You can just be "disappointed" in my knowledgeable.
> *I think you have a lot to offer with your 45yrs of experience in dogs. I do not think you should comment on behavior problems when it seems you have no experience with them. If you choose not to deal with dogs with problems then that is your choice but do not talk about what a shame it is for people to work on improving or managing their dogs problems(it is not as simple as saying this is how its gonig to be dog). It is a bit of a slap in the face to people with dogs who have temperament flaws and spend hours upon hours training, socializing, reading, working, classes, etc.. to help the dog instead of getting rid of it and getting a better dog from the shelter*


I typed in the quote box so I have to type something here or it won't allow me to reply


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## wyominggrandma

If it was not sagelfin that posted in blue, I apologize. I am not sure who posted the bright blue replies to my post, but what I have said goes to you.
For the folks that are not worried about liability of biting dogs, be very very careful.
My sister in laws grandson was bitten by a dog that "had only barely scratched the skin of a couple of people" before. The dog took off his nose. He was about 7 years old, playing in the front yard with a bunch of other kids. The dog attacked him. It took off his nose and they did surgeries and surgeries to make a "new" nose for him. He is terrified of dogs now, since this was totally unprovoked. Only after the lawsuit was the other "scratches" noted. Oh yea, the woman who owned the dog was sued and lost her home over the dog that attacked. Anyone whom owns a biting dog, whether they draw blood or not, whether they are for any number of excuses as to why the dog bit, someday someone will end up sueing you and you can lose your home or whatever else. 
I am out of this discussion, not because the above poster pretty much told me my post was so terribly disappointing and since I have such a lousy thought process on training, but because it saddens me.


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## wyominggrandma

I am so glad you obviously know who I am and what I know, since I don't have a clue who you are. 
I have dealt with sick dogs, sick horses, sick rescues. I have dealt with temperament issues with traing others dogs. I have run the gammet of good and bad owners. I have also had experience with behaviour issues with dogs I have trained and shown for others.
Maybe you need to quit trying to tell me what I am saying.
People like you make others not want to post. I don't care what the OP does with her dog. If she keeps it and knows it can't go out in public and has to stay behind closed door and wants to deal with it, so be it. That is her choice. If she wants to open her life to huge liability issues, then so be it.
BUT, it is my choice to train and have dogs that will not bite. It is my right to not have a dog that bites nor a dog that is a danger to others.


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## Jax08

_Alrighty then...and back to our regularly scheduled program..._

*OP - Are you still here? Perhaps if you could let us know what area you live in, someone here could direct you to a good trainer.*


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## JakodaCD OA

I totally agree that having a dog that bites can be a huge liability, and it's definately something to be taken seriously but, and here's my but, I think having the dog evaluated, checked out medically, going back to rescue, getting in touch with the previous foster home, can give an idea of the big picture. THEN make a decision about how to proceed. 

As I said before, in the meantime, OP needs to have eyes wide open, no putting the dog in any type of situation where he would have an opportunity to bite or hurt someone.

I also think everyone is entitled to their opinion, belief's and the type of dog they want to live with, unfortunately there are ALOT of dog's out there with behavioral issues, genetic mess ups, and owners who may not be equipped to handle certain types of dogs.


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## wyominggrandma

very well said JakodaCD OA thank you


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## JakodaCD OA

no problemo wyominggrandma


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## Jack's Dad

We had a rescue some years ago that bit a friend of my sons the first week we had him. We wrote it off to being new and that the boys were horse playing. It got worse over time, he snarled and growled and once challenged me.

We took him to 3 obedience classes, employed two different behaviorists over a period of time, spent hundreds if not thousands on them and the results were he bit a worker at our house through a four inch space in the fence.

I was afraid the whole 5+ years that he lived. I was fearful that someone would un- lock his pen and forget to lock it or somehow he would get loose around my grandchildren. It was a miserable 5 years for us and probably him. He was messed up temperamentally and maybe his environment before we got him.

If there are people willing to give up any type of normal existence to take a risk on animals like him then I wish them luck and safety.

Once we had him for awhile we only had the choices of PTS or pass the problem down the line. Well we dealt with it by keeping him away from people and animals.

I will never do that again. If in some eyes that is cold so be it.

sagelfn I do think we should let some of them go so that those that are more stable get a chance. With all the dogs out there why do we risk injury to human or animal for keeping one unstable or very sickly dog alive.

If others want to do that with their time and resources fine it's their choice.


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## RazinKain

Stacey650 said:


> My GSD rescue Sam has been with us for 7 mos. He is now 15 mos. I have tried EVERYTHING. 2 trainers, active use of the NILIF protocol. Sam is getting better with other dogs and does listen to me as I have had to use alpha training. *He has now bitten 2 of my neighbors and today my stepson! I had to keep him on leash when he entered house, tried moving him over slowly, calm voice and praise. finally he sniffed him and seemed fine, next minute lunged and bit his leg!!* What am I doing wrong. I train him constantly, very consistent. He has come a LONG way and learned a lot of obedience but aggression getting worse, should i keep muzzle on him around people in the house. I love him and do not want to give him up. PLEASE HELP!


This would have been the last thing this dog did in 'the world of the living'. ANY dog (especially my own) that bites one of my children is DEAD.


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## PupperLove

wyominggrandma said:


> If it was not sagelfin that posted in blue, I apologize. I am not sure who posted the bright blue replies to my post, but what I have said goes to you.
> For the folks that are not worried about liability of biting dogs, be very very careful.
> My sister in laws grandson was bitten by a dog that "had only barely scratched the skin of a couple of people" before. The dog took off his nose. He was about 7 years old, playing in the front yard with a bunch of other kids. The dog attacked him. It took off his nose and they did surgeries and surgeries to make a "new" nose for him. He is terrified of dogs now, since this was totally unprovoked. Only after the lawsuit was the other "scratches" noted. Oh yea, the woman who owned the dog was sued and lost her home over the dog that attacked. Anyone whom owns a biting dog, whether they draw blood or not, whether they are for any number of excuses as to why the dog bit, someday someone will end up sueing you and you can lose your home or whatever else.
> I am out of this discussion, not because the above poster pretty much told me my post was so terribly disappointing and since I have such a lousy thought process on training, but because it saddens me.


 
Couldn't have said it better myself!

And this opinion of mine applies to all owners of dogs who have bitten time and time over.

I can't comprehend how people can have a dog who has bit- more than once, and are now/still taking the time to see what's wrong and get this and that done. So lets just hope that in the mean time, it doesn't happen again, right? And nobody gets put into critical condition and nobody looses their home. I am just so mad over these dog bite posts, sorry everyone! If a dog bites and is not being threatened, something is wrong, or the dog is preceiving things wrong, and now people are in danger if this in fact isn't play.

I know alot of it has to do with having children yourself, and I understand how alot of folks on here do not have kids or want kids. But when you think of your own children's safety, and their vulneribility as a whole in this world, and see post after post about biting dogs and people containing dogs who have bitten multiple times, as a parent, it's VERY scary.

I'm not trying to offend anyone or upset anyone, but if my child's life ends up screwed up by anyone who has a repeat offender, all **** is going to break loose!

In my eyes, and this is JMO and maybe a mom thing, I can't wrap my head around how anybody can put their dog's problems over the safety of another person!!! What does it take to feel safe these days? Sorry I'm just ranting! I am not dealing with this problem with my dogs, but as a citizen, this is how I feel!


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## carmspack

dog ownership is supposed to be a positive experience , something memorable, not some nightmare and tension wrought experience being kept hostage wondering at what moment the grenade without the pin will explode . 

the dog also has feelings -- maybe in his state he is suffering , dogs being social animals he is and will be denied a lot of social experience . The effort will get tiresome and the dog will be shut away more often.

What if you had some personal needs , medical for instance , which takes you out of the picture , who then would be competent to take care of the dog.

From another perspective , and this I would say to the lady with the Great Dane rescue that bit up (3?) family members. If I am your child I expect you as my parent to provide me with an environment where I can be spontaneous and uninhibited and carefree and safe. If I have to toddle out of bed sometime to use the facilities or to crawl into bed with you because I had a bad dream or tummy ache or the storm upset me then I should be able to scurry down the hall way without thinking about or fear that a dog was going to get aggressive with me. Then you are failing me as a parent and that will have life long repercussions.
If I am your guest in your home I have a reasonable expectation that I will not be harmed or made uncomfortable . 

I think that the OP probably is more uneasy and knows more than revealed in the "help me" post . I think in the fact that she had the dog on lead and cautiously approached her guest , family member step-son , to allow the dog to check him out tells me that there was no trust or control -- and proven correct , dog without warning after seeming okay (unless you could spot the glazed over crazy look in the eye) bit , actively lunged to get the bite.

I think some rescue operations in their zeal to rescue the dogs are not doing their job in screening the dogs for rehoming suitability. Our Humane Society makes an effort and tests the dogs as suitable or not . 

In case anyone thinks I am anti rescue , anti rehoming that is very wrong . Every cat that we have and have had has been a rescue . I contribute funds and time and even food to shelters . 

You don't have to be a martyr and you don't have to feel that you have failed if or when things don't work out because there simply are situations which can not be helped .

best wishes
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Stevenzachsmom

Years ago, my cousin took in a young Springer Spaniel that someone was re-homing. Due to allergies, my cousin could not keep the dog either. I offered to take the spaniel. At the time, I had two kids. When my 6 year old attempted to pet the dog, it bit her. Fortunately, it was only her fingers and just a nip. Later my two year old walked near the dog calling her name. The dog turned and growled in my child's face. That dog didn't last 24 hours in my home. Not worth the risk.

Another cousin took the dog. He loved her and kept her 'til the day she died. Of course, the dog bit him numerous times - some pretty bad bites. To each his own. 

There are many nice dogs in this world and there are issues i am willing to work with - people aggression is not one of them.


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## carmspack

here are the penalities imposed on owners of dogs that bite (second bite) which includes jail time, financial penalty and the dog can be seized and destroyed by the authorities Why is the DOLA Unconstitutional?
there are other web sites and lawyers accounts saying that this has already had an impact with 30% reduction in serious dog bites.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

One thing I simply can't understand is why people are not using muzzles. They were invented for a reason and if I had a dog at home that bit three people already, that dog would NOT leave the house without a muzzle. 

Plus people would actually stay the heck away from a muzzled dog. 

Seriously, put a muzzle on that dog!


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## sagelfn

Hunter Jack said:


> sagelfn I do think we should let some of them go so that those that are more stable get a chance. With all the dogs out there why do we risk injury to human or animal for keeping one unstable or very sickly dog alive.
> 
> If others want to do that with their time and resources fine it's their choice.


Should they have put down these dogs? A lot of people thought so...

Courage - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Just...ned-And-Left-For-Dead/116968371648767?sk=wall

Patrick - https://www.facebook.com/ThePatrickMiracle?ref=ts&sk=info

Miracle - https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150167214994832#!/media/set/?set=a.206406999372519.55483.188797027800183

I think you try everything you can and then based on quality of life you make a choice. We don't know much about the OP's dog. We should not be suggesting she put it down. She has gotten great suggestions. 

I'm not saying putting the dog down is wrong. Only that the decision should be made without any thought to dogs in rescue/shelters. You should not say - my dog requires too much work, there are better dogs in shelters....

*eta* Bite #1 would have been when muzzle, medical checks, behaviorists, etc.. began not bite 3


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## Zisso

I have not read all of the posts here. Wanted to say I am sorry that you are going through tough times with your dog.

I adopted Nadia when she was 16 months old and she was a nipper. She was very insecure. She would grab someone's leg if they were simply standing in the doorway. Nip at their hands as they stopped petting her. I used to keep people away from her. Limited visitors at my home. Crated her when we did have company. I used a muzzle several times when introducing her to people and to my cats too. I still use a Halti, for times like taking her to Home Depot. Never ever thought I would get to take her there!

Over the course of the past two years, she has improved. It has taken a lot of work, consistency in everything I do, watching her like a hawk, and reading her every movement. Now, she initiates contact with other people. She lays at other people's feet. She rolls over on her back for belly rubs. Her best friend (aside from my male GSD) is my 16 year old Grandson, who visits from Montana every summer. 

Don't get me wrong....this is an ongoing process. She is not the kind of dog I would just turn loose and expect her to behave. I do not trust her around kids, because they move fast and are unpredictable. There are still only a small number of people I trust her with totally. But she is so much better than she was when I brought her home, and better than I ever thought possible. I can live with that. She is a mama's girl & I truly do love her no matter what.


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## Jax08

I"m sorry Brandi, but starvation cases are NOT the same as aggression cases. I'm not going to advocate one way or the other for this particular dog to be euthanized but you can't even begin to compare the three cases you posted with an aggression case. 

I live with two boxers. One is people aggressive and the other is dog aggressive. For Banshee, kids were fine. She loves kids. If she knew you before her littermate died, then you were fine. Anyone after was fair game. The mailman will not come to our door because she charges the door with her hackles raised behaving like Cujo. 

Nobody..and I mean *NOBODY *is allowed in our house unless we have her contained. Even outside family are not allowed in the house until the dog is contained. The only people that can come thru that door is me, DH, DD, DS and DS's best friend who as far as Banshee is concerned is one of us. And he shocked the **** out of me when he came through the door one day and she didn't make a peep. When people are inside, we do not let her approach the people. The people can toss her treats from across the room but they are not allowed within touching distance. Even though she never bothered a kid, she was still not allowed free rein around them.

This is management...pure and simple...and it is tiring. You have to be on your game 100% every second. Would we do it again? Absolutely. But we also were very diligent about her aggression. If you are to take your dog out on a leash, then you need to identify him as a dog not to be approached somehow. You need to be watching every second for a child who might decide petting him is the best thing in the world to do at that moment. Otherwise, put up a 6' fence around your yard, clearly marked and let him get his exercise that way. But the word CONTAINMENT is the key word here.


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## Stacey650

I last posted prev evening around 11:30, logging on now I see so many posts of people wanting to help. Since last night I have done a lot of research on hypothyroidism and aggression issues at the suggestion of many members. There is significant research and proof that it does cure aggresion issues if that is the cause. I have found a vet in California that specializes in canine thyroid disorders and I am going to make an appt with my vet for a blood draw to send it out to Ca. If this not the cause, well I am prepared to crate Sam in the house when guests come by. He does know several of my friends and neighbors and they are able to come into the house. It is really hard to know what he is thinking and what causes him to react. If it is fear aggression, perhaps crating him will be to his benefit and make him feel more secure. I will not let him bite again, and yes I know it is a lifelong commitment. I will keep you posted with the results from the thyroid bloodwork. 

This is the first time I have ever posted on the internet for any reason. It is amazing how many people responded with positive advice. I will try every option I can to fix this dog. I am starting to believe God gave him to me because he is a challenge and I would not give up without a fight. I believe things happen for a reason. I will also look for a good schuzhund club in my area.

Thank you !!!!!
Sam's mom


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## Stacey650

Thank you Jax08 for letting me in on your dog situation at home. Knowing you are able to manage them gives me hope


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## Jax08

Be aware that crating him could create frustration and cause barrier aggression. Not saying this will happen but it can. You should muzzle train him. My grandparents had a dog that was muzzled the entire time anyone was there, including us.

What area are you in? Perhaps someone here can recommend a trainer to evaluate him.


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## onyx'girl

Sam's mom, please keep updating on this, as you can see 8 pages have many interested and your experience will benefit others that are also going thru the same type situations(as we've read, it isn't that uncommon ) 
Are you sending the thyroid eval to Dr Dodds? That would be my recommendation. 
If _only_ it was just a medical issue and not behavior. 
Most often, though it is genetic's that have a dog acting this way and as many have posted, lifelong management is key to having the dog live a fairly happy life.
A good trainer will help you learn the right way to manage...I hope you can find one.


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## Stacey650

Also, thank you to Zisso with similiar situation and all the other members who shared their stories. I am sorry I cannot remember all the names


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## Stacey650

Yes, Onyx girl I am sending it to Dr. Dodds, I read she really knows her stuff
Jax 08 I am in Cape Cod mass


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## Jax08

Why don't you start a new thread asking for a good trainer in that area? This thread is so long that your request may get lost.

Have you discussed all this with the rescue you adopted him from?


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## Jack's Dad

Sagelfn. 

Those are compelling stories.

I don't have a problem with seeing what other issues the dog may have. 

I really wish I could come up with the wording to start another thread on this issue because I think that while there will always be disagreements it would helpful to try to understand why we disagree. The subject needs to be discussed with no regard to an individual dog that someone has posted about.

There is not enough information often times to make judgements.

As a general topic about what do we do with dogs who have issues, (medical temperament, aggression) etc...maybe we could all learn something. The thread is very informative but the subject has gone beyond the OP's dog.

A lot of people can't take care of aggressive dogs so what do they do with them?

As I said before in my case I will not have another dog who bites.

Someone else mentioned children. I would kill if necessary to protect my children. Large powerful dogs have injured, maimed, and killed children. So this subject is a very serious one.


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## Stacey650

Jax08,
I have not called the shelter yet because they told me when I adopted that he was very friendly with no agression issues. In their defense he did not seem to when I went to meet him at the shelter. I am not sure what I would say.....

I will take your advice on a new thread to ask for a behavior/trainer


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## Mom2Shaman

Having been there myself, I understand completely. I hope that medical eval., training, management, and the dog's maturity will all mesh and solve this for you. As long as the family's daily safety is intact, your willingness to be 100% committed to adapting is what counts. It's like when a parent has a child born with a disability or a child or spouse who has become injured or ill. It's not the way you dreamed, it doesn't exactly fit the way it is supposed to be, but your love and devotion give you the desire to "make it work" and "make the best of it". There are many things that can be done to give the best life to the dog and to yourself and yet preserve everyone's safety too. Stacey, you have my sincere best wishes.


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## Jax08

ohhh...so this was NOT a rescue. This was a direct adopt from a shelter. Sometimes as dogs mature the aggression can become more pronounced. He probably didn't show any at the shelter. Do you know if he was an owner surrender or a stray? It would be so helpful to you if you could find that out. If he was an owner surrender, it might be possible to contact the previous owners and find out his background or where they got him from.


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## Stacey650

Thank you Mom2Shamen,
I feel the same, it is not the situation I would have desired, BUT it is my situation and I feel I have a responsibilty to this dog. I read today that 13 MILLION dogs are put down every yr due to behavior issues. We do not abandon or condemn people with mental issues.. I am not comparing dogs with humans, I am just saying that they are at our mercy bc they cannot tell us what they are feeling. If it is a ' hardwire issue' I feel that is similiar to a psych issues


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## LaRen616

I do not believe in euthanizing a dog that has bitten someone once or twice.

I do however believe in euthanizing a dog that has bitten numerous people and if the bites were severe. 

I appologize if I read wrong, but if the dog is aggressively lunging at people and his bites were bad then he should be euthanized.

My 14 year old cousin was just mauled by a Bull Mastiff and died on the operating table but was revived. This dog did SERIOUS damage to him. When the police came to get statements from witnesses they said the dog tried to attack a neighbor the week before. 

Your dog has already bitten 3 people, how will you feel when your dog attacks a baby or a small child? 

I would be LIVID if your dog attacked my child, especially knowing that your dog had already bitten 3 other people.


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## Stacey650

Hi Jax08,
the only info from the shelter was that he was a stray found wandering the streets.
he was emaciated when I got him


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This is why it's good to get several different view points from people in the real world. 

I have seen a dog lunge and snap and grab and another lung and snap and grab and what a difference between the two even though the words are the same to describe it. 

So good trainers, good behaviorists, good vets, and even going to a vet behaviorist like many universities have - all the while this dog is muzzled if he is going to have or could have any contact with others. All putting together a case of how this dog is going to be managed, or not. Predictable or not? Is it aggression from fear? Territory? Is this a dog who was trained half-butted to bite people before I got them? What do I as the person need to do? Is this a dog that I can make a mistake with once in a while, or if I make a mistake, will something happen truly awful happen that I will no longer be able to control?

Great resources:
Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
Welcome to k9aggression.com | Dog Aggression Education, Support and Resources 

I have also seen dogs behave aggressively with dogs or people with one person as their caretaker, and be a completely different dog with someone else. 

Finding people who can help you IRL will be key. If you want to PM me your general location, I can hopefully link you with people who are in a better position to evaluate your dog than we all are.


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## PupperLove

LaRen616 said:


> I do not believe in euthanizing a dog that has bitten someone once or twice.
> 
> I do however believe in euthanizing a dog that has bitten numerous people and if the bites were severe.


The problem with that is if a dog bites, it bites. There are really no grey areas. It either happens or it doesn't. The dog doesn't think to itself "I'm only going to bite Roger a little bit today and hopefully it doesn't draw blood." If a dog bites, it is intended to do harm. 

The extent of the harm done could be determined by several factors such as if the dog was able to get a good hold, was or was not leashed, etc. A dog that bites and doesn't break the skin could bite the next time and send someone to the ER.

If people are willing to make exceptions for their dogs biting people, even if it's only one time, they better be willing to deal with every possible consequence that goes with it including fines, jail time, bodily injury or death of another person or child, major financial loss, stress, and the list goes on.


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## Jack's Dad

There is a new thread on aggression and when to let go that is intended to deal with this topic in general terms and not focusing exclusively on one dog.


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## Stacey650

JeanKBBMMMAAN,

I am in Cape Cod MA, about an hr from Boston.
Thank u for links and anyone you can put me in touch with for help!


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## Ruthie

PupperLove said:


> The problem with that is if a dog bites, it bites. There are really no grey areas. It either happens or it doesn't.


I completely diagree. The reason a dog bites matters a lot! Grizzly has bitten for different people today alone.


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## PupperLove

Ruthie said:


> I completely diagree. The reason a dog bites matters a lot! Grizzly has bitten for different people today alone.


Well, if you want to get technical, then yes, dogs can bite during play or if they are in high drive mode I like to call it. But I thought we were talking about a dog who is biting people unprovoked? It either happens with a dog or it doesn't.


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## Ruthie

PupperLove said:


> Well, if you want to get technical, then yes, dogs can bite during play or if they are in high drive mode I like to call it. But I thought we were talking about a dog who is biting people unprovoked? It either happens with a dog or it doesn't.


You have underlined exactly what the problem is. We, the readers, have know idea if it was unprovoked or not. I also have no idea if the OP has the skills to evaluate if it was unprovoked or not. That is why I think it is impossible to recommend a course of action other than to ask for help in person.


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## Jack's Dad

Ruthie said:


> You have underlined exactly what the problem is. We, the readers, have know idea if it was unprovoked or not. I also have no idea if the OP has the skills to evaluate if it was unprovoked or not. That is why I think it is impossible to recommend a course of action other than to ask for help in person.



We may not know everything but after having owned dogs for 6 decades. I only had one (that I discussed earlier in this thread) that ever bit anyone. It is beyond belief to me that 3 different people all provoked this dog.


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## PupperLove

Ruthie,

Well, when the OP mentioned that they have tried 2 trainers and are practicing NILIF, doing consistant trining, then the dog sniffed the stepson and seemed fine and was lunging and bit his leg the next minute make it seem unprovoked to me. Also, the mention of biting 2 neighbors. It seems unlikley that both neighbors provoked this dog to bite so I am assuming it was again, unprovoked. I guess all we can do is make assumptions based on what people write, and offer opinions and recommendations based on the information we gather.

Dog bites are a big matter. There are tons of threads on here with questions and we never REALLY know what it was like since we are never there for anything. So from what I gather about this dog and the situation, is that it bites unprovoked and is quite dangerous. Just sayin'!

but I agree that a professional needs to evaluate the dog if they choose to keep him. I still firmly believe there is no excuse for a dog to bite a human unless it is being harmed, and if it does, then the dog is dangerous- because any given person could be at risk if they do not personaly know the dog's weaknesses and what causes it to bite, so the owners need to be prepared to deal with consequences.


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## Ruthie

Hunter Jack said:


> We may not know everything but after having owned dogs for 6 decades. I only had one (that I discussed earlier in this thread) that ever bit anyone. It is beyond belief to me that 3 different people all provoked this dog.


Provoked from who's perspective? There is a reason why the dog felt he needed to bite. Depending on what the reason is, the dog might be able to be rehabilitated or at least kept safely.

I am not saying that there ISN'T a problem. Unless I missed something, the neighbor bites were never even described. It is easy for people to throw out their opinions on a forum, but the facts are that no one here saw what happened. 

The type and situation of the bite makes a huge difference in determining if it is safe to keep the dog or not. I had a dog that bit twice. Both out of fear because he was backed in a corner. Both were soft bites that didn't draw blood. Once we learned about fear aggression we were able to prevent any further incidents and he lived another 5 years happy with us at home.

She needs to get someone who knows what they are talking about to evaluate the dog then decide what to do.


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## RazinKain

Ruthie said:


> Provoked from who's perspective? There is a reason why the dog felt he needed to bite. Depending on what the reason is, the dog might be able to be rehabilitated or at least kept safely.
> 
> I am not saying that there ISN'T a problem. Unless I missed something, the neighbor bites were never even described. *It is easy for people to throw out their opinions on a forum*, but the facts are that no one here saw what happened.
> 
> The type and situation of the bite makes a huge difference in determining if it is safe to keep the dog or not. I had a dog that bit twice. Both out of fear because he was backed in a corner. Both were soft bites that didn't draw blood. Once we learned about fear aggression we were able to prevent any further incidents and he lived another 5 years happy with us at home.
> 
> She needs to get someone who knows what they are talking about to evaluate the dog then decide what to do.


which is exactly where the OP went with it. She just didn't like some of the responses she got.


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## Ruthie

Yep. And I am expressing that I don't like them either.


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## selzer

The step-son is 25 not 10. 

My brother is getting close to 50. He comes over and torments Cujo, pushing, pushing pushing the dog, staring into his eyes, pushing him, teasing him, riding him (not literally). My mom asks him if he wants to be the first one the dog has to bite. Mom will not put Cujo down if he takes a chunk out of her son. Should she???

This thread seriously saddens me too. We have a puppy here that was abandoned and emaciated before being picked up and dropped at a shelter prior to eight months old. The shelter says he's happy and friendly -- do we know how long they had this dog? And the OP gets the dog, and for seven months has been working with the puppy with the advice of a couple of trainers. 

I commend the OP for being loyal to the puppy. I think that maybe the type of training and leadership is not necessarily right for this puppy. And maybe, this pup has genetically weak nerves and no training will be right for it, we do not know. But without someone with good experience who can evaluate the dog, how can we condone any type of action, except management so no one else gets scratched. 

I am sorry, but a bite is NOT a bite. When a GSD bites, yes there will be bruising and punctures, and possible stitches. otherwise it is inhibited. A dog that inhibits their bite is STILL giving warnings. Just not the kind of warnings we want them to. But still the dog is not hopeless. 

I think people have failed this dog much more than this dog has failed humans. 

I hope that we give a pup with a really rocky start a chance, and not just kill the dog because it does not act like someone's puppy that has had all the benefits of good breeding, a good whelping situation, training and socialization experiences, and consistency in the humans that owned it. Of course this pup is going to act differently, might need more training, and the owners may have a tougher road to travel. 

Lastly, I suggest that the owner build either in the garage, basement or fenced back yard, a kennel that the dog cannot escape because it has concrete base, nine gage wire and covered over. When there is a question, put the dog in his safe place and keep people away from him. Management is not so painful when you know the dog has a safe and comfortable place to be when the man is there to work on the furnace or the grandkids are over. Having such an arrangement does not mean you lock the dog away forever, it just means you can put him somewhere safe temporarily.


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## DharmasMom

The bites were actually more scratch like.


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## dOg

*Fear*

In the litany of opinions, although one post alluded some dogs behave differently with some people, none have mentioned fear...
Not the fear of the dog, but of the people.

Once the dog has people fearful of it's potential bad behaviors, it multiplies the chances more bites will occur. 

The OP may have a calmer and more confident demeanor, but the other people may be feeding the dog fear. 

Just saying, can't see or hear the dog or the people so all this armchair coaching is severely handicapped. I have seen a bad situation get worse with the most horrible outcome of the dog being PTS, and it was _*not*_ the dog's fault in any way. He did what was expected of him, projected by fearful people. They could have given the dog back to the breeder, but chose instead to put him down.

They read us like a book, what are the people projecting?
We can't see or smell fear, but the dogs can.

I would start with the rescue. They may want him back to re-evaluate and to possibly re-home if evaluation goes well.
It's the dog's best chance for success at this point.


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## GSDElsa

It wasn't a rescue, it was a shelter.


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## logantaunt

It helps if you know something of the dogs past, how it was raised etc.I rescued a GSD about 6-7 months old. She was never socialized, and kept in a dark garage her entire life to that point. She took to our family, pets and all, like she was grateful to be rescued and with us. All that said, she would bite any one who got near us and I think it was out of fear. We hired a professional trainer at the house twice a week and put her in obedience school for a week, to try and socialize her. She never would accept any one but us. To protect her and ourselves, and much to my dismay, we gave her to a lady who had 10 acres of land and 5 of that was fenced in. I never saw Sasha again, but we kept in touch with her new owner over the next several months. She did well in that situation, and I was glad for her sake. This may be a solution for your dog. It's always hard to let them go, but what must be done is what is best for the dog. I hope it all works out for the both of you. Just my thoughts.....Logan


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## RunShepherdRun

I am in Eastern MA, evaluate dogs for rescue organizations, and will be glad to PM you about behaviorist options in Eastern MA. There are several excellent ones. I am glad you posted and asked for suggestions to help your dog.

I agree with selzer and with Jean and others, one needs to observe the dog in various situations, look at the training methods used so far, and look at the dog's handlers and their behavior. And then come up with a training/management plan that includes both the dog and his handlers. 

For now, as you already said, I'd always crate him when visitors come to your house. No exception. Unannouned visitors will have to wait outside until you have him in the crate, period. You will find out where the crate should be, out of sight in the bedroom or in the living room with the visitors. Not all dogs that one needs to crate with visitors get frustrated. Some do. Many are actually relieved and quiet. Either response is important information when assessing a dog. Visitors should stay away from the crate and ignore the dog. That entails managing visitors, too! You'll have to be firm with them to keep them away from your dog. 

In many years of evaluations, there were quite a few dogs that I did not consider safe and would not recommend for rescues to take, but only after very, very careful evaluation. Personally, I would never suggest ending a dog's life based on what I read in a paragraph or two on the internet. I don't know the dog, I don't know the handler, it is impossible to assess the situation without actually having observed them in several different situations. 

If a person wants to work with her dog, both training and management, and is willing and capable to do so and can make the necessary adjustments, and the dog can be kept safely that way, there is no reason to end his life. 

NB Usually a dog who does not tolerate visitors to the home is also nippy if a stranger approaches the handler. Pending observation/assessment of both dog and handler, there are many tools in the toolbox to successfully address these behaviors. Bon courage!



Stacey650 said:


> Although I appreciate the input, putting him down is not an option for me. He is friendly with neighbors he does know, and dogs as well. perhaps i should have added that in. all of the bites were scratches, none of them broke the skin. if we are in public he is fine, just when people come into the house. I have been reading prev thread about a GSD named Victor and if I have to crate him when folks come by, that may have to become the routine. My husband and I are safe. He was not like this when we first adopted him, just seemed to escalate. I am definately not alpha rolling the dog, just let him know that I am in charge. everything is done with love, no harshness. Perhaps I should have given a more detailed history. I know he will never be a social dog but there is no way I will put this dog down.


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## katieliz

great post sarah!


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## zyppi

Got weary reading, but IMHO, no one who hasn't seen and interacted with this dog can truly help you evaluate the problem, much less advise you on a step as radicle as euthanasia.

Find qualified local help if you can.

Best of luck


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## debbiebrown

this is not an easy thing to deal with, and it can consume your life with worry and frustration.......

i agree you need to get a Qualified trainer/behviorist to help you come up with a plan of action. Even if there is a medical issue the dog has learned behavior now and you still will need guidence on how to work it.

you need to understand the dogs triggers and thresholds, this takes alot of carefully set up situations and learning to read the dog. Most people are not equipted to deal with a dog with these issues. when you get a dog you expect to go through normal training and handling and you have a nice family pet who can be trusted in all situations. these types of dogs takes careful evaluation and trouble shooting the right training plan.........its black and white with these dogs, all aspects of life are totally controlled, the dog makes none of his own decisions, the owner controls everything........Some dogs can come to the point of progressing to a 99% trustworthy point, some can't.........its up to the owner to learn how to best handle the dog, and most people cannot do this without professional help. someone who is knowledgeable, objective and honest.

its not an easy road, and its constant throughout the dogs life, a huge commitment which alot of people cannot dedicate themselves to........

a dog is supposed to enhance our lives, be a trusted part of the family, one that can share in our every day lives., unfortunately there are special needs dogs that come our way who need special handling and we have to learn from them and keep them safe.....

best of luck to you, i've been there and totally understand...........


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## sparra

carmspack said:


> dog ownership is supposed to be a positive experience , something memorable, not some nightmare and tension wrought experience being kept hostage wondering at what moment the grenade without the pin will explode .
> 
> the dog also has feelings -- maybe in his state he is suffering , dogs being social animals he is and will be denied a lot of social experience . The effort will get tiresome and the dog will be shut away more often.
> 
> What if you had some personal needs , medical for instance , which takes you out of the picture , who then would be competent to take care of the dog.
> 
> From another perspective , and this I would say to the lady with the Great Dane rescue that bit up (3?) family members. If I am your child I expect you as my parent to provide me with an environment where I can be spontaneous and uninhibited and carefree and safe. If I have to toddle out of bed sometime to use the facilities or to crawl into bed with you because I had a bad dream or tummy ache or the storm upset me then I should be able to scurry down the hall way without thinking about or fear that a dog was going to get aggressive with me. Then you are failing me as a parent and that will have life long repercussions.
> If I am your guest in your home I have a reasonable expectation that I will not be harmed or made uncomfortable .
> 
> I think that the OP probably is more uneasy and knows more than revealed in the "help me" post . I think in the fact that she had the dog on lead and cautiously approached her guest , family member step-son , to allow the dog to check him out tells me that there was no trust or control -- and proven correct , dog without warning after seeming okay (unless you could spot the glazed over crazy look in the eye) bit , actively lunged to get the bite.
> 
> I think some rescue operations in their zeal to rescue the dogs are not doing their job in screening the dogs for rehoming suitability. Our Humane Society makes an effort and tests the dogs as suitable or not .
> 
> In case anyone thinks I am anti rescue , anti rehoming that is very wrong . Every cat that we have and have had has been a rescue . I contribute funds and time and even food to shelters .
> 
> You don't have to be a martyr and you don't have to feel that you have failed if or when things don't work out because there simply are situations which can not be helped .
> 
> best wishes
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Great Post!!!!

This dog bit a family member. This is a *dog*....should you really put your *dog* b4 your families safety...


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## RubyTuesday

> The problem with that is if a dog bites, it bites. There are really no grey areas. It either happens or it doesn't. The dog doesn't think to itself "I'm only going to bite Roger a little bit today and hopefully it doesn't draw blood." If a dog bites, it is intended to do harm.


Dog bites are not simply B&W. Dogs use mouth & teeth to communicate as well as to aggress & defend. A dog with good bite inhibition does temper its bite. There are warning snaps that don't actually connect to flesh. People often claim 'the dog tried to bite me'. Noooo, the dog was issuing a 'carefully worded' warning. Dogs rarely TRY to bite. They're usually exceptionally good at putting their teeth exactly where they intend to. There are also nips which are intended as a warning. Inappropriate to be sure, but a nipping dog isn't attempting an all out attack. As a young pup, Pluto, my muttchkin, would use his teeth to 'pinch' when he wanted someone's attention. He wasn't angry, fearful or threatened. It was simply his way of trying to get someone's attention until we convinced him differently. Frequently biting dogs bite & promptly retreat. Again inappropriate, & these bites can be both hard & injurious, but the dog is not in 'kill mode'. Most unusual & most dangerous are those bites with follow through & extended attack which would be the situation with LaRen's poor nephew.

I agree with many others that the dog/pup needs a thorough physical & mental evaluation. I'm glad the owner isn't giving up easily on this guy. Frankly, easy love & commitment is cheap love & not really worthy to be considered as such. 

IF they elect to manage the dog they should muzzle him whenever he has access to others, especially young children, including the family's children. He can be loved & managed but it will require ongoing serious diligence b/c even one slip up could result in tragedy. Even when it seems he's been oh-so-good for oh-so-long they shouldn't relax their guard. He's simply not predictable & can't be trusted.

Selzer, Ruthie, Sagelfn, Onyxgirl excellent posts! And Selzer, I agree that this guy isn't fully matured. He's not a 'baby' but he's not yet a true adult. He's at that difficult, sometimes risky half grown stage.


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## Rexy

This is not unusual behaviour for a 15 month old a bit short on nerve and a low threshold to reactivity which appears as stranger aggression. What I would use on a dog like this is a slip collar and if he goes to lunge at someone aggressively, lift his front legs off the ground with a NO command and choke him out until he submits and settles, then slowly let him down to catch his breath. The dog has to learn that lunging is innapropriate behaviour with a severe aversive consequence.

A choke out is the only remedy to remove drive from the dog and rarely will this method not rehabilitate a young aggressive lunger and given that the behaviour is a dangerous one to manifest, it must be stopped forthwith. The method is a bit extreme and requires probably the assistance of a good K9 trainer with aggression experience. The dog also needs some obedience where in the presence of strangers the dog is made to down and relax and in time the dog will learn that the presence of strangers isn't anything to worry about or any need to bite them.

I would NOT euthanase this dog, it's fixable with the right training regime.


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## malinois_16

selzer said:


> The step-son is 25 not 10.
> 
> My brother is getting close to 50. He comes over and torments Cujo, pushing, pushing pushing the dog, staring into his eyes, pushing him, teasing him, riding him (not literally). My mom asks him if he wants to be the first one the dog has to bite. Mom will not put Cujo down if he takes a chunk out of her son. Should she???


I agree 100% here. My father was 35 years old when I had my one Rottie. He would torment this dog and rough house despite his warning growls when his hips got sore. I told my father one day hes going to bite you and you will be the first person hes bitten. Sure enough 2 weeks later my Rottie took a chunk out of my fathers face. Did I put him down? No...he was a retired service dog sore, arthritic with bad hips. My father since stopped rough housing when he gave his warning growl and they have been fine ever since. The dog lived another 2 years till cancer took his life. Never bit another person again.

But perhaps I should of put him down because my father needed 13 sitches in his face...no..he deserved every last stitch he got.

OP any updates on the pup?


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## codmaster

Maybe keep them separate, if you can? That is a huge price to pay for teasing a dog - to get bit in the face by a Rottie. They have BIG mouths. Probably lucky to off with that few stitches and having a face still to stitch up at all.


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## jmoney

I don't get why people are saying to put this dog down without knowing the full situation. From reading it sounds like your dog is not trained. It may sit come or do other fun things when you tell it some times, but if your dog is going after neighbors, or nippy/biting other people but not severely then it should be around them yet. Find a really really good trainer, one that maybe trains just german shepherds, if you hear from two or three of those people that your dog needs to be put down...then I would probably consider it.


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