# What "lines" are WGSDs from?



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Are they American lines or??


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

I don't know the answer to your question, but it would be nice to know where they came from.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Working German Shepherd dogs?

Lines... East German/DDR, West German, Czech Republic are the main three.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Yeah, what does "WGSD" stand for? White?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

According to this, they were there from the very beginning.
White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

LOL yes, WGSD = White German Shepherd Dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Whites were among the very first GSDs, so they have always been around. But in Germany they were selected against after a certain point.

Americans, however, continued breeding whites. I am not sure if there were many breeders in Germany who bred whites, so I want to say that Whites are an American line GSD... but distinct from American show lines.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Good question! (Ignore my previous answer... LOL)

I always thought the white German Shepherds didn't look like GSDs in structure, unless you had one born of two coloured parents with correct conformation. It is indeed true that there are white dogs amongst the oldest shepherd dogs (among other colours such as brindle) - Greif von Sparwasser was white!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

White Shepherd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
take the info from wiki as "fact" for what it's worth....but interesting information nonetheless!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are whites coming out of Europe (though they have a new name) so they are not all American lines. I have not paid attention to the lines of the ones coming out of Europe so don't know if they have been separate for many generations or if there are some familiar names there.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

lhczth said:


> There are whites coming out of Europe (though they have a new name) so they are not all American lines. I have not paid attention to the lines of the ones coming out of Europe so don't know if they have been separate for many generations or if there are some familiar names there.


I think you are talking about the Berger Blanc Suisse (BBS). 

Berger Blanc Suisse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## kelina (Nov 17, 2012)

the swiss GSD !!!!

White Shepherd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

don't some people register them as a separate breed, i think an "alpine shepherd" if they are from two registered alpine shepherd parents but can not be registered if they are a mutation from one or two non-white sphepherds??

don't know where i heard this, prolly wrong.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I have often wondered if a random white could pop up in any line.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

lhczth said:


> There are whites coming out of Europe (though they have a new name) so they are not all American lines. I have not paid attention to the lines of the ones coming out of Europe so don't know if they have been separate for many generations or if there are some familiar names there.


I know some of those lines going into the creation of the BBS were from American and Candian WGSD breeders.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

robk said:


> I have often wondered if a random white could pop up in any line.


As long as both the sire and dam carry the white masking gene white pups can be produced ... I think the white gene has been almost completely bred out of a lot of the colored lines (or they're a well kept secret).


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

I didn't read the whole story, but figured this was one of the best places to start History of the White Shepherd, American White Shepherd Association, I never really thought about the question before. Does anyone know if Max's book mentioned the White German Shepherd? What about the Total German Shepherd? I would think that old Shepherd dog breeder's would be amongst the first to even have them, since most farmers don't care about type or color but, workability on the farms. 

I wonder if anyone of the Shepherd breeders would remember or have been told where the white Shepherds came from? It says on the site provided above that Ann Tracy had White Shepherd Dog's. Also, this*:**

"The first reported AKC registration of white coated German Shepherd Dogs were from a litter whelped March 27, 1917 from the Stonihurst Kennels."*


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Do most of you consider WGSDs a different breed?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Wild Wolf said:


> I always thought the white German Shepherds didn't look like GSDs in structure, unless you had one born of two coloured parents with correct conformation.


Really? There are so many beautiful ones with no standard colors going back 3,4,5 generations. I think the lack of markings and solid color create an optical illusion especially around the head/muzzle. I notice it in the solid black dogs too, neither is easy to get a good picture of. 
I do think there's something different about the long stocks but that includes all colors. Their ears look different to me among other things.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Zeeva said:


> Do most of you consider WGSDs a different breed?


Regardless of what some people want regarding breed separation, the dogs are still GSDs!!! And I'm willing to bet that the majority of breeders who support breed separation breed dogs which are registered with AKC or CKC as GSDs (some may be dual registered as White Shepherds or German Shepherds with UKC).


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

CelticGlory said:


> I didn't read the whole story, but figured this was one of the best places to start History of the White Shepherd, American White Shepherd Association, I never really thought about the question before. Does anyone know if Max's book mentioned the White German Shepherd? What about the Total German Shepherd? I would think that old Shepherd dog breeder's would be amongst the first to even have them, since most farmers don't care about type or color but, workability on the farms.
> 
> I wonder if anyone of the Shepherd breeders would remember or have been told where the white Shepherds came from? It says on the site provided above that Ann Tracy had White Shepherd Dog's. Also, this*:*
> 
> * "The first reported AKC registration of white coated German Shepherd Dogs were from a litter whelped March 27, 1917 from the Stonihurst Kennels."*


The color white is one of the original colors of the German Shepherd Dog when it was developed in Germany.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

arycrest said:


> Regardless of what some people want regarding breed separation, the dogs are still GSDs!!! And I'm willing to bet that the majority of breeders who support breed separation breed dogs which are registered with AKC or CKC as GSDs (some may be dual registered as White Shepherds or German Shepherds with UKC).


I wouldn't expect it to be any other way really. Pulling dogs out of the AKC (or CKC) isn't going to help breed recognition happen any sooner. AWSA is trying to work *with* the AKC, not against them. Jumping ship would make no sense. Why abandon a registry you're trying to work with?
Dual registrations are pretty common.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I wouldn't expect it to be any other way really. Pulling dogs out of the AKC (or CKC) isn't going to help breed recognition happen any sooner. AWSA is trying to work *with* the AKC, not against them. Jumping ship would make no sense. Why abandon a registry you're trying to work with?
> Dual registrations are pretty common.


I guess I was thinking that if AWSA members are seeking to register their dogs as a new/different breed, then continuing to register them as GSDs isn't helping their cause. Of course if they were trying to convenience AKC to let the white be a variety it would be different (but it's my understanding, and I may be wrong, AKC no longer allows new varieties). Is there any chance that AKC would accept the BBS as a new breed?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

arycrest said:


> I guess I was thinking that if AWSA members are seeking to register their dogs as a new/different breed, then continuing to register them as GSDs isn't helping their cause.


Continuing to register the dogs as GSD's seems to bother some people more than others. It doesn't affect the process or lesson the chance that AWSA's goals will be met. It sometimes confuses the general public but once they understand the reasons behind it, it's usually not a big deal.



arycrest said:


> Of course if they were trying to convenience AKC to let the white be a variety it would be different (but it's my understanding, and I may be wrong, AKC no longer allows new varieties).


That's right, the AKC no longer allows new varieties. Petitioning the AKC to make an allowance and let the whites become a variety of GSD was something that might have worked given their unusual circumstances if it had been done before the BBS became a distinct breed. I think it would have been an excellant option for the breed and the whites if it had been done 20 years ago. Now it wouldn't make much sense. 



arycrest said:


> Is there any chance that AKC would accept the BBS as a new breed?


First they would have to go into the Foundation Stock Service but yes, I do think that eventually the BBS will be a recognized breed in the AKC. AWSA has gotten past some major hurdles and will keep doing what it needs to do until it happens.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Thanks for the explanations White.... 

It will be interesting to see what happens ... hopefully it won't take another 40 years or so to get it resolved


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

My main concern with seperating them out is that there are many "pet" or BYB bred dogs that carry the white gene and could produce white puppies from colored parents. Would they be regitered as GSD's or BBS's?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> My main concern with seperating them out is that there are many "pet" or BYB bred dogs that carry the white gene and could produce white puppies from colored parents. Would they be regitered as GSD's or BBS's?


How did they do it in the past with breeds that started as one breed, then were categorized into separate varieties? Like the Belgians? They are considered one breed with four varieties in Europe, while over here they are four separate breeds (I'm counting the Lakenois, not sure if they have AKC recognition at this point). I'm sure that a longhaired pup has popped up in a Malinois litter in the US, is it simply registered as a Malinois with a coat fault? Or as a Tervuren? And if the latter, what is the process? I can see there being pros and cons to each, it could certainly open up the gene pool for Tervurens for better or worse.

It would be a cumbersome situation if you had a white pop up in a well-bred litter; the WGSD people would no doubt want to get their hands on those bloodlines and have the pup registered as their own. 

In a BYB litter, it probably doesn't (and shouldn't) matter what the offspring are registered as, since they probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. :crazy:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If a Mal shows up in a Terv litter or what ever they are considered a Terv with a fault. They are separate breeds in the AKC. So, if the WGSD is made a separate breed any white pups born to GSD would be in the same situation they are in now. A faulty color in the breed still able to do performance events, but not show in conformation. A separation by variety would have made much more sense.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> In a BYB litter, it probably doesn't (and shouldn't) matter what the offspring are registered as, since they probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. :crazy:


They might be, and sold as "rare".


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> They might be, and sold as "rare".


Of course they will be!

Andaka, do whites ever pop up in American show lines?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Andaka said:


> My main concern with seperating them out is that there are many "pet" or BYB bred dogs that carry the white gene and could produce white puppies from colored parents. Would they be regitered as GSD's or BBS's?


I'll try to explain it the best I can.  
AWSA has never asked the GSDCA to change the breed standard or to remove whites from the GSD breed. They wanted the GSDCA to indicate to the AKC that they (GSDCA) would not protest the AKC establishing the White Shehperd as a separate breed within the FSS program. White dogs would be voluntarily reclassified at the discretion of their owners. Only the dogs entered into the FSS and their future progeny would be registered as WS in the FSS. 
This group could include AWSA dogs, (now registered with the AKC as GSD's and in the AWSA registry) imported BBS and UKC WS's, if I understand it correctly. People who wanted their white dogs to stay part of the GSD breed would have nothing to do with the process and their dogs wouldn't be affected. Those dogs would continue to be registered as GSD's. 
The final outcome, which could take years, would be a distinct breed of dog in the AKC called the WS (or whatever name they finally decide on) The white coated GSD would still exist, just as they exist now alongside the BBS in parts of Europe, as two different breeds of dog. 

The only thing that could change and possibly hurt the white GSD breeders who favor staying with the breed is that the GSDCA could decide in the future to change the standard and remove whites from the breed. If that was done after the WS had been recognized by the AKC and after the stud books were closed, all future white coated dogs born to GSD's could not be registered. They would be in the same position as the whites that were born to dogs in the SV. *The GSDCA has given no indication that they plan to change the standard.* (don't want to start rumors, just throwing out all possibilities)


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