# Building Confidence?



## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

Hi there guys. 

My boy Axle is 12 months old, and today I saw something happen in the dog park that changed the game for training for me. I would like some tips with helping build Axle's social confidence with other dogs.

He's generally never aggressive at all with other dogs. He has ZERO history of aggression and has never bitten any other dogs, so there's nothing to be concerned of there, as of yet it seems. But what happened in the park made me realize he needs some more, if not Alpha energy, strong self composure and inner sense of pride. 

I know he is only 12 months, and perhaps I may be looking into these things prematurely, but I just want to do everything I can to see that things shape out well. 

Today, a 16 month old GSD, that we met for the first time, was very very fit and healthy and was rocketing all over the park. Clearly an excellent example of the GSD. A very strong dude. Axle went over to greet him. The other GSD did not give one single care for him, kept rocketing around the place, but slowly became irritated with Axle's persistent presence. 

Soon, the other GSD switched something on and completely dominated my boy. Granted, Axle is younger, but in terms of pack order status, the other dude had Axle completely outclassed. The dominant behavior shown by the strange GSD was very very clear and recognizable. 

He began circling Axle in rapid fashion, throwing his body-weight on Axle and barking HARD and LOUD right into his face as he swiftly paced around him. My boy Axle wanted to come back to me, but kept getting pressed back by the other dog and Axle was quite terrified. I did not step in too soon because so far the encounter seemed non-violent, physically at least. But psychologically, well, my dear old buddy is a little quiet tonight. I did eventually step and save my buddy, after about 40 seconds-1 minute of observing the engagement, and once I stepped beside Axle, put him under my wing, and eyeballed the other GSD hard, and he promptly understood not to mess around any more, and immediately retreated back to his owner. 

I am optimistic about the future, because I have faith in my determination, however I believe there's work to be done. 

I am very humbly and respectfully asking owners of such confident and strong GSDs to give me some pointers or anecdotal advice on how to improve how I am effecting my buddy's confidence. 

If I've left anything out, please just ask me to fill you in. I am totally here to receive wisdom right now.

Thanks so much, in advance. 

Owner of Axle the Great
Jeff


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't think there is anything you can do. Your dog wanted the play, the other dog didn't. This is exactly why so many top dog trainers avoid dog parks all together. When I get my new pup I will most likely not introduce him to other dogs or many people. It takes just ONE bad experience to make him dog aggressive or people aggressive.
read this, it may help.
Leerburg | Socializing Puppies a Pushy Puppy


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> My boy Axle wanted to come back to me, but kept getting pressed back by the other dog and Axle was quite terrified.


This is exactly how to create a fearful response towards other dogs. 

If you see your dog is begining to annoy another, it's time to leash him and make him take a break. You do NOT want experiences like the above to happen.

Your boy as he is sounds like a good dog park canidate. Friendly, giving way to other dogs, no aggression. That other shepherd had no business in that type of environment. I am outraged the other owner did not step in and correct their bully dog. But unfortunately that seems to be the general attitude of dog park goers... 

IF you want to continue to use the dog park, you do not want your dog to be "alpha" with others. That will eventually lead to fighting. And vet bills. And worse. 

Is axel neutered? As he matures, he may gain more confidence, or he may just be genetically a more submissive easy going guy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSD's do not do well in dog park situations or with dogs they have no relationship with. I would remove your young dog from there and instead take that time to train with him. You can track, you can do group obedience but letting a dominant male into your young dogs bubble is not ever going to have him showing assertive behavior. And in a dog park, showing assertiveness can end up with a fight. 

My own two males are managed, and I don't allow the older one to dominate the younger because I want my younger dog to remain confident. 
They are allowed to play, but I am always supervising and stop them if it gets to the point that the younger dog is getting bullied. 
It is up to us the handlers to let the dog know we have their world controlled...good that you didn't let that incident go on for any longer. 
If you do want your dog to play with others find a dog(and his/her person) to have controlled playdates with. Generally opposite genders get along better than two males or two females would but it depends on the individual dogs. 
My dogs run and chase balls or tug with holee rollers but they do not wrestle. Because they do play very hard and aggressively, it could turn into a fight easily. Luckily in my own pack the dogs know their places and everything is fine. BUT...I supervise them all the time.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don't use dog parks for that reason. You have no control over another dog. Use more controlled settings to introduce him to other dogs, from a distance. They don't need to play to socialize or to be happy. Even my own dogs in my own home can get out of control and too rough. It's my job to figure it out before that happens and stop it or separate them.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

Thanks so much for the responses. I'm going to take diligent heed of all that's been said, as the general consensus seems to be that, even though Axle is a gentle hearted playful fellow, the variables of the dog park may not be as advantageous as they are risky.

I'm very glad to hear that others believe dog-dog socialization isn't necessary for Axle's happiness and fulfillment, as this is news to me, and makes avoiding the park much easier on the conscience. 

It also makes me feel a little better that it could be agreed that it was indeed the OTHER dog that may have been"unfit" for such social environments, and not just that Axle ought to have more boisterousness in him. Logically, it does make sense that two Alpha dogs that don't see eye-to-eye would end up brawling, and quite obviously that would be no-good. Although, I still will try to nurture whatever Alpha essence that might be residing somewhere in Axle. Though, it was clear to us from day 1 that Axle was always going to be a sweet-hearted giant. Perhaps some time spent in protection training lies in the future.

SO from here on out, I suppose I'll just be keeping a keen eye on subtle gestures of his and mine, just to make sure that there's no long term harm to Axle's psyche, and I guess I'll have to find a way to look forward to keeping him leashed all the time in public, as the woodlands we used to explore have been left behind since I moved house three weeks ago. 

Thanks again everybody. Extremely glad for you insight and input. Very appreciative of this forum, I am. 

I hope you all have a good day!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I don't use dog parks for that reason. You have no control over another dog. Use more controlled settings to introduce him to other dogs, from a distance. They don't need to play to socialize or to be happy. Even my own dogs in my own home can get out of control and too rough. It's my job to figure it out before that happens and stop it or separate them.


How do you manage this? I will be getting a pup and he will interact with my brothers GSD on a regular basis. Slight problem is I was the one who mostly trained the GSD, we have a strong bond.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> I am outraged the other owner did not step in and correct their bully dog. But unfortunately that seems to be the general attitude of dog park goers...


The other GSD's owner tried feebly with no avail to get his attention and recall him, but she was on the other side of a stream that the GSD had jumped over. 

She was a very attractive jogger and we talked for a few moments, although it was clear that she is not a very assertive owner, or at least not in that instance. Perhaps her lack of assertion is consistent, resulting in that boys attitude! Both of them are very physically fit though, so there's that to be said about her merit as a dog owner.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Is axel neutered? As he matures, he may gain more confidence, or he may just be genetically a more submissive easy going guy.


No he is not Neutered, as when he reaches 14 months of age I intend on X-raying his hips and want him considered for breeding. Keeping his lineage in my family is also a serious intention of mine. 

I do hope very much that in the coming months that he'll man-up a little bit, because I want to see him enjoy the benefits of confident living. That said, waving goodbye to puppy-hood is not super appealing, hahah. But the gloriousness of a mature GSD is something I have yet to experience, as he's my first dog. I do ponder about how he will develop as time goes on. I was told that it would be the coming months that spike his behavior and mentality, if there are to be any developments at all .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My experience was this, and it wasn't even a dog park per se but a wooded trail system with some fields where lots of people gathered to walk dogs offleash and some impromtu playgroups would happen.

My girl was bullied twice, and both times I swooped in to save her as quickly as I physically could. Once she was being chased by an out of control labradoodle and screaming in fear, I called her because theybwere going too fast for me to catch them, she ran TO me and I physically intercepted the doodle to protect her and almost broke my d*** leg, that thing hit me like a ton of bricks and knocked me down, but I didn't care because she came to me for help and I was gonna help her.

Another time she got into a chase me game with a couple of ridgebacks. Her way of ending a chase is to lay down and say "I give". Well the ridgebacks gathered around her, barking, and went totally predatory in an instant. Luckily THEIR owner also recognized that things had gone terribly south and the two of us were able to wade in and save my gsd.

I should never have gone back for the second incident. Better still, shouldn't have gone there at all. But she was young and loved playing with other dogs and I thought it was ok, and there was a place there to swim which is her favorite thing in the world.

She had lasting problems from those two incidents even though I did everything I could to help her and she was not hurt, in fact no one touched a hair on her head.

I have carefully chosen a few playmates for my new gsd and he has never and will never run loose with a group of dogs I don't know. For us it was a huge mistake.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

Noted. Definitely noted. Thank you for sharing. Seems like, especially now when Axle's young and impressionable, it's better to have a firm grip on the factors influencing his experience. Can I ask how old she was at the time of each incident, Thecowboysgirl?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Axle12J said:


> No he is not Neutered, as when he reaches 14 months of age I intend on X-raying his hips and want him considered for breeding. Keeping his lineage in my family is also a serious intention of mine.
> 
> I do hope very much that in the coming months that he'll man-up a little bit, because I want to see him enjoy the benefits of confident living. That said, waving goodbye to puppy-hood is not super appealing, hahah. But the gloriousness of a mature GSD is something I have yet to experience, as he's my first dog. I do ponder about how he will develop as time goes on. I was told that it would be the coming months that spike his behavior and mentality, if there are to be any developments at all .


Since he is a breeding prospect then you should have ample resources to determine if this is his genetic base line temperament or if he is going to make any drastic changes. 

What's his pedigree like? What lines is he from? 

What venue are you titling him in? 

Have you reached out to his breeder and your trainers in regards to your concerns about his confidence?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

They were relatively close together, and I can't say for sure how old she was but she was not totally mature. I would say around a year.

She didn't straight up become fearful of all dogs but it was clear that her confidence was rocked. She was definitely no longer comfortable walking at places where we encountered other offleash dogs. It wasn't until I adopted an adult male rescue who was the perfect match for her and she started meeting dogs with him and seeing the world with him that she really became her old self.

She has some selective aggression toward other dogs in certain circumstances that may or may not be related to this, it is hard to say.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Since he is a breeding prospect then you should have ample resources to determine if this is his genetic base line temperament or if he is going to make any drastic changes.
> 
> What's his pedigree like? What lines is he from?
> 
> ...



I havent reached out to the breeder regarding his confidence, no, since up until today I never really questioned it. His manners and temperment seem very stable, and I've never had cause to doubt his orderly habituation. 

I do not have a trainer either. I've done all his obedience work myself. 

As for his actual lineage and all the official business, I couldnt give you a very straight answer right now. Back when I looked up his ancestry all I could find is that they were all registered with the kennel club and and not much else. They had some registration of their hips as well but my memory is foggy. I've met both his parents who were delightful, well, the mother was a bit protective of her pups when we first met, so I didnt actually get to spend TOO much time with her, but the father was incredibly soft and sweet. Both dogs did the usual bark at strangers as they come to the territory, but both were also very relaxed once the breeder disarmed them. 

With regards to titling Axle, I don't know. I feel like searching into such things before getting the go-ahead from the health-specialist would be a tad... I don't know... Like I would hate to get my hopes up before everything is golden


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Slightly confused...in another thread you mentioned that your mom wanted to get rid of him and you had to convince her to let you keep him.... Do you plan on breeding him in the future when you live on your own? Because you want to continue his line and keep it in the family, so I imagine you'll want to keep some of the resulting pups.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

Yes for the first couple months it was a hard battle bringing my mother around to the lifestyle of a dog owner, because she's gone practically her whole life without dogs in the household and was fighting the change, but it only took a couple months to get her round to seeing things differently and now Axle is firmly embedded in the family. 

When it comes to breeding Axle, I will not want to keep SOME of the pups. just perhaps one from a litter every few years or so. I still have yet to learn about the ins and outs of breeding, so I feel like saying I know what im talking about would be quite untrue.

Well, at the moment, I cannot see past keeping one more. I will be living by myself yes, within the next year or so I will move to a bigger house by myself with more land.

What I had in mind was to keep a girl from his first litter, but theres still a lot of time to think about the details of how things will unfold.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My experience was this, and it wasn't even a dog park per se but a wooded trail system with some fields where lots of people gathered to walk dogs offleash and some impromtu playgroups would happen.
> 
> My girl was bullied twice, and both times I swooped in to save her as quickly as I physically could. Once she was being chased by an out of control labradoodle and screaming in fear, I called her because theybwere going too fast for me to catch them, she ran TO me and I physically intercepted the doodle to protect her and almost broke my d*** leg, that thing hit me like a ton of bricks and knocked me down, but I didn't care because she came to me for help and I was gonna help her.
> 
> ...


WOW ... most impressive! About the only thing I would add is "maybe" you did your "Momma's got your back" job a bit too well???" Your dog should show a bit more graduated. 

And a freaking labradoodle?? Been hearing more "issues" with those lately?? Badly underestimated for the most part?? It would seem that they act like neither Labs or Poodles ... kinda odd??? 

But the trail by and large that falls under the "Crap Happens" category! Two Ridge Backs coming after my puppies is nothing I ever want to experiance! Certainly glad that worked out and your dog was not harmed! The owner was not quite "good enough" or it would not have happened but it sounds like he did step up! Lots of the completely clueless ... won't or can't do that! 

But great job on your part ... "Homie" Would be Proud!


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Axle12J said:


> When it comes to breeding Axle, I will not want to keep SOME of the pups. just perhaps one from a litter every few years or so..


Not really seeing the distinction...If you obtain one of his puppies every few years or so and you end up with more than two, I think it's fair to say you wanted some of his progeny.

Which is obviously fine since you're planning on moving before all this occurs, people keep multiple dogs all of them the time. I was just confirming that your current situation isn't the one you're breeding in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Axle12J said:


> Yes for the first couple months it was a hard battle bringing my mother around to the lifestyle of a dog owner, because she's gone practically her whole life without dogs in the household and was fighting the change, but it only took a couple months to get her round to seeing things differently and now Axle is firmly embedded in the family.
> 
> When it comes to breeding Axle, I will not want to keep SOME of the pups. just perhaps one from a litter every few years or so. I still have yet to learn about the ins and outs of breeding, so I feel like saying I know what im talking about would be quite untrue.
> 
> ...


stud dogs are a dime a dozen....who will you be breeding Axle to? Not many responsible breeders will use just any male, they want one that is 'special' and that generally includes multiple titles, health tests and a breed survey. If you want to breed him, plan on going the extra mile to prove he is breedworthy. Don't settle for the random bitch owner that will use a dog out of convenience. And then the pedigree match comes into play...will she complement his lines and his hers? There are so many things to decide....get out there and train, prove it with titles and people will notice him if he is all that, and seek you out to use him as stud. Then you can be choosy to who you want him to breed to...not every breeding match is a good one, so know his lines and his strengths/weaknesses within those lines. And then you should know other lines so that you can say YES! or NO to breedings. 
That would be the golden scenario.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> WOW ... most impressive! About the only thing I would add is "maybe" you did your "Momma's got your back" job a bit too well???" Your dog should show a bit more graduated.
> 
> And a freaking labradoodle?? Been hearing more "issues" with those lately?? Badly underestimated for the most part?? It would seem that they act like neither Labs or Poodles ... kinda odd???
> 
> ...


Chip, you make me laugh almost every time I log on here.

Suffice it to say, anything or anybody threatens my dogs and I turn into mama grizzly, And yes, totally a labradoodle. The owner actually told me that dog HAD broken someone else's leg so I count myself lucky that I got off with a hematoma.

This homie don't play at dog parks anymore


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Axle12J said:


> I do not have a trainer either. I've done all his obedience work myself.


Axel is your first gsd, heck he's your first dog! It's great that you have done a lot of obedience work yourself, but if you eventually want to breed your dog, you need an experienced person in your corner who can recognize what your dog brings to the table. To give an honest assessment of his abilities and drives. 

Titles are important, in lieu of actual working experience, they "Prove" a dog's ability. Depending on what your interest is, Conformation/IPO/Agility/Competition OB/Etc, it can take years in itself just to get a title - especially for an inexperienced dog handler. Training in your preferred venue should already be underway if breeding is your goal.



> As for his actual lineage and all the official business, I couldnt give you a very straight answer right now. Back when I looked up his ancestry all I could find is that they were all registered with the kennel club and and not much else. They had some registration of their hips as well but my memory is foggy. I've met both his parents who were delightful, well, the mother was a bit protective of her pups when we first met, so I didnt actually get to spend TOO much time with her, but the father was incredibly soft and sweet. Both dogs did the usual bark at strangers as they come to the territory, but both were also very relaxed once the breeder disarmed them.


Well first of all, do you even have full breeding rights to Axel? Was he purchased with full or limited registration? You may not even be able to breed him at all depending on how is breeder registered their litter. 

You'll need to learn the pedigrees inside and out. You need to know all the qualities of your dog and where in the pedigree those qualities came from. You'll need to be able to read the pedigree of the bitches as well to find one that compliments your boy. 

It doesn't sound like there are a many recent titles in the pedigree. That doesn't bode well. Axel can be an absolutely amazing dog! But the law of filial regression will come into play and all the pups that he produces may end up duds. Recent titles in the pedigree demonstrates that line's propensity to pass on their working ability. 



> With regards to titling Axle, I don't know. I feel like searching into such things before getting the go-ahead from the health-specialist would be a tad... I don't know... Like I would hate to get my hopes up before everything is golden


There's so much more to breeding then just the health clearances. Breeding needs to be done with a goal and the desire to better the breed. You want one or two of his pups. What about the dozens of others in the litter? If you aren't breeding to better the breed - you can literally be giving all of your future pup's siblings death sentences. 

titles also are what's going to attract the owners of bitches to your boy. Lots of stud's out there, bitch owners can afford to be incredibly picky. And trust me, you don't want the pup of a bitch owner who isn't. 

Truth be told, you aren't going to know if your boy is actually even worthy of breeding for another 2 -3 years. If you wait till then to start working him towards his titles you'll be setting yourself up to fail. 

That's the thing with buying pups. A breeder I know who's family has been doing this for decades, purchased a multi-thousand dollar dog as a stud prospect. Worked his booty off training and titling that dog. And is now having the dog neutered to live out its days as a pet, because at the end of the day, if he was honest with himself, there were better dogs out there available for breeding then his stud. I'm a breeder myself (not of dogs though) and I can tell you first hand - getting your hopes up just to have them crushed goes with the territory! LOL


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> How do you manage this? I will be getting a pup and he will interact with my brothers GSD on a regular basis. Slight problem is I was the one who mostly trained the GSD, we have a strong bond.


I let my dogs play but I watch them closely. If the noise or intensity starts to escalate or one gets too pushy with the other, I distract them with toys they like or chewers--one for each so they don't fight, or I separate them. Either in different rooms or behind a gate or crates, until they calm down. The puppy can be more annoying to the older one, so I don't let him jump on her or bite at her indefinitely. If she looks and sounds happy, I let them play. If she growls and he ignores her warning, I split them up. It works.


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## Axle12J (Sep 13, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Axel is your first gsd, heck he's your first dog! It's great that you have done a lot of obedience work yourself, but if you eventually want to breed your dog, you need an experienced person in your corner who can recognize what your dog brings to the table. To give an honest assessment of his abilities and drives.
> 
> Titles are important, in lieu of actual working experience, they "Prove" a dog's ability. Depending on what your interest is, Conformation/IPO/Agility/Competition OB/Etc, it can take years in itself just to get a title - especially for an inexperienced dog handler. Training in your preferred venue should already be underway if breeding is your goal.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the words. Although they feel a bit critical, they also seem honest and experienced. 

So I suppose Ill be getting in touch with GSA Ireland quite soon. 

Hopefully I can associate with an experienced individual directly and get the low down on exactly what I should expect from Axle. 

I really don't want to be told I'll have to get him neutered if he isn't seen as "worthy" though. Ahh.... There are trials ahead...


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Axle12J said:


> Thanks for the words. Although they feel a bit critical, they also seem honest and experienced.
> 
> So I suppose Ill be getting in touch with GSA Ireland quite soon.
> 
> ...


That's the hard part about breeding. Responsible breeders learn to put their love of the breed ahead of the love of their individual dogs. 

You're in Ireland right? So you have those crazy dangerous dog laws don't you? That right there is WHY breeders have to be stewards of the breed as a whole. Too many irresponsible breeders produced unstable dogs. Unstable Undiscerning animals that topped bite lists. Dogs that did not fit the standard but went by the name "german shepherd". 

Good breeders also breed with goals in mind. They want to produce conformation champions, they want to produce police dogs, or sar dogs, - what is your goal? 

Genetics and breeding is tricky. You can pair the best two animals you can find, and the offspring a mess. It takes a long time to learn the science/art of pairing in order to produce the best animals. 

Axel may have fantastic lines, he may end up being a fantastic example of a GSD. Put him to "work" to prove himself. And yes, absolutely find a breeding mentor. Getting involved with some form of dog sport will help you prove axel's abilities AND put you into contact with experienced gsd people. 

If axel doesn't end up breeding quality (that has absolutely nothing to do with him being an awesome dog in general btw!) you don't have to have him neutered, just prevent him from having any accidental litters. 

All gsds are related and it would be difficult to find a close relative of Axel's when you are ready for a second dog if it's important to you to have his family lines as a part of your household.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I let my dogs play but I watch them closely. If the noise or intensity starts to escalate or one gets too pushy with the other, I distract them with toys they like or chewers--one for each so they don't fight, or I separate them. Either in different rooms or behind a gate or crates, until they calm down. The puppy can be more annoying to the older one, so I don't let him jump on her or bite at her indefinitely. If she looks and sounds happy, I let them play. If she growls and he ignores her warning, I split them up. It works.


I should have been more specific, I meant that I read to not let them interact until the younger one is a year old. This is because they say that the two dogs will bond strongly together and become inseparable. The advice being that the young pup should bond with the owner before anyone. Have you had problems of this sort?


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

Please, first of all, do not overuse these terms "alpha" (possible only in own pack) and "dominance" (possible only through long term relationship). All young dogs mainly practice new skills by interacting with each other.
There's such a thing exists, called "dog relay". Any sort of behaviour some other dog exposes towards your dog - is a lesson how to behave with dogs. If, say, your young dog was fighting and lost - he definitely will find some other dog who is weaker than him, will start fighting in order to practice these fighting-wrestling skills his first adversary has demonstrated to him ripping his coat. If your dog often meets friendly dudes - he will try to copy them with a new acquaintance. Your buddy behaved with that GSD as an inferior only because he has never experienced any other behaviour than friendly from another dog. Nothing could be worse than being in one company with badly behaving friend. Many dog trainers use their own dogs as assistants, so a puppy in-training could copy their behaviour in certain situations.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> I should have been more specific, I meant that I read to not let them interact until the younger one is a year old. This is because they say that the two dogs will bond strongly together and become inseparable. The advice being that the young pup should bond with the owner before anyone. Have you had problems of this sort?


Where did you get that? How are you planning to keep two dogs in the same household separate? I think you are creating a lot of unnecessary work for yourself based on one opinion. If it's Leerburg, they are training Mals.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Where did you get that? How are you planning to keep two dogs in the same household separate? I think you are creating a lot of unnecessary work for yourself based on one opinion. If it's Leerburg, they are training Mals.


They are not in the same household, but he's my neighbor. I'm getting a dutch x mal.


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## LaurelCreek (Jun 22, 2016)

This thread confirms what I already suspected: dog parks are a bad idea. People today seem to want to do everything in groups or crowds, and dog parks were apparently developed for the owners' benefits more than the dogs'.


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