# Shock collars, good or bad?



## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

I am trying to break Sugar of chasing and cornering the neighbor's cat. She does reasonably well off-leash for the most part, but she is still very much prone to cat chasing and refuses any and all commands once she sees a cat. Scolding and placing her back on the leash isn't getting the message across, so I'm considering using a remote control shock collar since I'm tired of trying to recapture her when she bolts.

I still prefer positive reenforcement, but this looks like a case where a more explicit reward/punishment combo would be more effective, especially since there's a strong possibility of her injuring the neighbor's cat or finding her way into the street.

Sugar is now 8-1/2 months old and 70lbs.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

If you correctly use it it, YES they are wonderful means to train. I used it for Kenzo especially to teach come command. I got it from leerburg , I don't know it is ok to mention this here, also got a dvd showing how to use it properly, I hope it helps. GL


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

The way I had envisioned using it would be as a "Stop what your doing, Now!" command. As such, it wouldn't be a substitute for regular training, but instead would be used as a last resort for regaining control of a potentially dangerous situation.


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## mastercabman (Jun 11, 2007)

It can be good,if you use it right.
I was told by my trainer,that you need to set the collar at the highest setting.
introduce her to the collar and she will learn quick.
Then try to use positive training/commands.
But I got better respond with the prong collar.I guess is because they know that "you" are correcting them.With the shock collar,they don't know where it's comming from.(I could be wrong about this)

Good luck with it.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I would look into an ecollar trainer if that is something you wish to explore - so you can learn to use the ecollar properly. I would also NOT recommend starting the collar out on the highest possible setting at first. You want to use it on the LOWEST possible setting that will (and I know I am not going to word this right) a reaction from your dog. And by reaction, I mean that your dog will respond to the command (just can't think of a good word right now).

check out http://www.loucastle.com


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## tsulli266 (Mar 24, 2008)

Doesn't the highest setting tend to "shut a dog down"?? We've never had to go beyond a 4 (1-10) and have had great results.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

As a properly used tool it is ok. Quite honestly if 


> Quote: She does reasonably well off-leash for the most part, but she is still very much prone to cat chasing and refuses any and all commands once she sees a cat.


then she is not yet reliable off leash and should not be off leash. She should be RELIABLE on a leash around cats before she is allowed off leash.



> Originally Posted By: mspiker03I would look into an ecollar trainer if that is something you wish to explore - so you can learn to use the ecollar properly. I would also NOT recommend starting the collar out on the highest possible setting at first. You want to use it on the LOWEST possible setting that will (and I know I am not going to word this right) a reaction from your dog. And by reaction, I mean that your dog will respond to the command (just can't think of a good word right now).
> 
> check out http://www.loucastle.com


I agree especially starting with the lowest setting and working up. Starting on the highest setting on a "soft" dog could create much much worse issues down the road. *IF* you decide to use an ecollar find a reputable trainer that understands how to properly use the ecollar. Lou Castles website would be a very good start. Perhaps even try to contact him for some advice?


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

The collar I was looking at has 7 or 8 settings and an audio warning sound so that you can correct without having to shock the dog once the collar is 'loaded'.

The goal is that the collar combined with a verbal "Stop" command would be to used to get Sugar to refocus on me instead of the cat or other distraction. Eventually, she would hopefully learn to respond to voice only and forgo the collar completely.

I don't see that cranking the collar to a meltdown level would be beneficial to start. I only want to break her focus on the prey and return her focus on commands.

FYI: I don't take her for walks off-leash. But other family members here sometimes let her out accidentally by leaving a door or gate open. I can recall her all day long away from cats. I just need to break that fixation.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I also recommend Lou Castle's web site. He has a great article on "crittering" that sounds exactly like what you need to work on. I think you may be better served by a collar that has more than 8 settings, this way you can better find the stim level that works for your dog (the lowest possible setting that the dog feels) I personally use a Dogtra collar. Good Luck!!


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

The Lou Castle site seems to have a good deal of info. I'm going to read thru it tonight. Thanks.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

> Quote:I was told by my trainer,that you need to set the collar at the highest setting.


UH, Noooooo!

Use the lowest your dog acknowledges.. different threshold for each dog.

Lou's site gives a description of how to do that.

It will work for crittering (teaching your dog not to chase the cat).


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: I was told by my trainer,that you need to set the collar at the highest setting.


Just wanted to make sure anyone reading that knew it wasn't correctly stated. At least if you are using the collar properly for training purposes. You always start at the LOWEST setting and only move us as needed.

Though I recommend always starting with positive training methods and then up to using regular training collars/methods way before restorting to an e-collar. It's an expensive 'tool' (specially with the trainer to make sure it works well) that most of our dogs NEVER need when we go to the regular dog classes and socialize our pups properly.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Does your dog have a good reliable leave it, down, or come? I would work on those things first because they are the basis for what you want to do. 

You can do those with obedience classes and proofing in control situations as MRL says. 

I do a lot of positive leave it work and when my Schipperke (rodent killers) mix and another dog (wants to kill in general-lol) found a rabbit in the backyard and had already gone into prey mode-were tossing it back and forth, I yelled Leave IT and they did. But they came up to me for the better treat that they knew was coming.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Her basic commands (sit, down, stay, leave it, come) are pretty good. It's just that the cat is proving to be a very strong temptation.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Calipso, I'm guessing you have found a good set of dog classes.

Just ask your instructor to help continue putting pressure on ALL the dogs with upping the distractions during training. I know when I have my dog in a line with the others, in a sit/stay, and one dog/handler is pulled out to play fetch in the room, that is good training for us!!!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i hate those e-collars.


> Originally Posted By: CalipsoI am trying to break Sugar of chasing and cornering the neighbor's cat. She does reasonably well off-leash for the most part, but she is still very much prone to cat chasing and refuses any and all commands once she sees a cat. Scolding and placing her back on the leash isn't getting the message across, so I'm considering using a remote control shock collar since I'm tired of trying to recapture her when she bolts.
> 
> I still prefer positive reenforcement, but this looks like a case where a more explicit reward/punishment combo would be more effective, especially since there's a strong possibility of her injuring the neighbor's cat or finding her way into the street.
> 
> Sugar is now 8-1/2 months old and 70lbs.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

I agree doggiedad. I'm not a big fan of them either


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Quite honestly I do not feel an 8 1/2 month old PUPPY has enough training and a shock collar should be used more on proofing than on actual training, especially if you are doing it on your own without an experienced trainer to ensure that you are working it properly.

Are you working DILIGENTLY on leave it, focus, recalls ON leash with positive reinforcements? I would also work on training the family members on the rules and responsibility of dog ownership. Doors and gates should be a focus of the entire family. I know it isnt easy. If doors and gates are being left open by family members perhaps she should be tethered or crated when not 100% supervised by an adult. Have you worked on "STOP" or some emergency command to stop, stay put and dont move because your life depends on it command? Yes, accidents will happen and occasionally a door or gate may be left open but until she is fully trustworthy it is your responsbility to make shure she is safe and sound. 


If you make yourself and family members sooooo much more fun than some cat I think you will end up with a better relationship with your dog AND one who looks to you for fun and leadership. I am not trying to quote you out of context but if she is:

"reasonably well off-leash for the most part"

"Her basic commands (sit, down, stay, leave it, come) are pretty good. It's just that the cat is proving to be a very strong temptation."

It sounds to me like she is still very much a puppy and very much still learning some of the basics. She does not sound like she should be off lead. I am REALLY not trying to come down hard on you. I do think you are trying. I am simply trying to provide some other ideas on how to work through this situation for you and your pup.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: oliver annieIt can be good,if you use it right.
> I was told by my trainer,that you need to set the collar at the highest setting.
> introduce her to the collar and she will learn quick.


Wow that`s a new one to me. Ask him again just to see if you misheard him.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

First, thanks to those who have recommended my protocol for stopping this chasing and my website. 

A bit of history. Ecollars were originally invented to stop hunting dogs from chasing undesired game. These were dogs that had been bred (some for hundreds of years, some for just decades) to do just one thing, hunt. If the desired animal was not in the environment, their drives forced them to hunt secondary game, usually deer. This was a distraction and so the hunters devised a tool to stop this. The original Ecollars were a one-button on-off affair with a very high level of stim. They were used (think of dynamite) to blast the dog off the chase in the hopes that the dogs would make the association with the pain that was inflicted with chasing the deer, and this association would make them stop. 

Usually it worked very well. But there were some problems and you can have them today if you do it the way it's been done historically. Some dogs will make the association between being away from the handler, instead of with chasing the deer. It's hard to get those dogs to leave the handler's side, sometimes after just one experience with this. Some dogs just powered thorugh the pain, so driven were they to chase deer. They either ran out of range of the Ecollar or the trainer simply gave up, realizing it wasn't going to work. 

A few years back I developed this "crittering" protocol to stop police dogs from chasing cats on urban yard-to-yard searches. I needed something that would not interfere with the dog's drives to continue the hunt for the crooks. Simply "blasting" like the old hunters did might have the dogs fearing the cats and they'd simply go into avoidance of them. If the crook was in a back yard where a cat had been or was present, the dog might simply avoid that yard and we'd miss him. I couldn't afford to have the dog fearing the cat, I only needed to stop the chasing. 

The protocol also works for SAR dogs to stop them from chasing "critters," hence the name. Accidentally I discovered that it also works to stop dog-to-dog aggression and there's a video at the end of the protocol that shows two dogs playing, one of which used to be aggressive towards the other. 

The protocol can be found here. http://loucastle.com/critter.htm 

I've never understood people who "hate" inanimate objects. They're completely benign, until a human picks them up and uses, or misuses them. It's not the object but the misuse that should be hated, it seems to me. 

Sometimes nothing else works but an Ecollar. And this is one area where it excels.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

@Lou:

I'm curious about your 'weaning off the collar' instructions. Sugar is very perceptive. It won't take her long to figure out the collar is the restraint and when the collar is gone that the restraint is gone. Have you had to do refresher training on dogs trained with e-collars once the collars are removed? I would like to avoid having the collar being a permanent feature.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there were cats in our puppy classes.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I agree with doggiedad actually, I really don't like e-collars and would only use them at a last resort. You still have a puppy on your hands, and she's in a rebellion stage no less! Can you train her outdoors on a long lead with the cat or something else as a distraction? I really think if you build a strong leave it that you may not even need an e-collar, or a strong "Focus". JMO.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: [email protected]:
> 
> I'm curious about your 'weaning off the collar' instructions. Sugar is very perceptive. It won't take her long to figure out the collar is the restraint and when the collar is gone that the restraint is gone.


Some of this is a flaw in the training. Many people put the collar on, go training and take it off. Do that three days in a row and the stupidest dog out there will figure out that it's the Ecollar that's responsible for the discomfort of the stim. You'll get a dog that performs well when the collar is one and not so well (or not at all) when it's not. 

But this isn't something that's inherent to the Ecollar. You can get the same thing with any kind of training collar or even something as benign as a bandanna. Substitute a bandanna for the Ecollar in my previous paragraph and you can get the same result. 

How to avoid this is discussed on my page of myths about Ecollars. It's #20. http://loucastle.com/myth.htm 



> Originally Posted By: CalipsoHave you had to do refresher training on dogs trained with e-collars once the collars are removed? I would like to avoid having the collar being a permanent feature.


Yes. There's always a need for management. Even the best of trained dogs, no matter what tool or methods was used, will need refreshers from time to time. I leave it up to the individual client, what level of reliability is acceptable to them. With the police dogs, because they bite, I need 100% reliability and need to be able to enforce it at all times, so I recommend having them wear the Ecollar whenever they're working. But for pets it's up to the owners. For most people if they have to repeat (for example) a recall command in the park when their dog is focused on a squirrel, that's OK with them. Probably having to repeat it TEN TIMES is not OK. So somewhere in between is where you'll have to decide how much disOB is acceptable. It's an individual thing. 

BTW sorry for the late reply. I didn't get notice that there was a response to this thread.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

What I was planning to do was to follow a recommendation from another e-collar trainer that you should place the collar on the dog randomly for a week or two before actually using it. The idea is that the dog will accept the collar as just another collar making it harder to make the connection that the collar is what's doing the corrections.

I've read that there are two techniques for doing e-collar training, in particular 'escape training' vs 'correction only' training. Escape training sounds nasty and almost abusive. Thoughts?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I think the "escape" training is a little misleading. The level of discomfort is very low, like a fly buzzing in your ear or trying to land on you. You want to "escape" the fly. So you change your behavior to eliminate the fly. Correction only is not very effective and uses a higher stim level, now THAT IMO is what you dont want to do.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CalipsoWhat I was planning to do was to follow a recommendation from another e-collar trainer that you should place the collar on the dog randomly for a week or two before actually using it.


There are some trainers who do this for 3-4 months. If you have the time by all means try it. But if you afterwards put it on go training and then take it off; your dog will figure it out in three days. Didja have a chance to look at my article where this is discussed? 



> Originally Posted By: Calipso The idea is that the dog will accept the collar as just another collar making it harder to make the connection that the collar is what's doing the corrections.


It doesn’t stop the dog from becoming collar-wise if you don't do the rest of it right. 



> Originally Posted By: Calipso I've read that there are two techniques for doing e-collar training, in particular 'escape training' vs 'correction only' training. Escape training sounds nasty and almost abusive. Thoughts?


I think you've been talking to the wrong people. I had the owner of a forum who after I'd posted on his site nearly 700 times, decide that my use of the Ecollar, escape training was abusive. He'd never seen it and I'm sure that the fact that he was about to release his own DVD on Ecollar training and I was giving advice for free had NOTHING to do with his banning me. 

If I was doing escape training at the level of stim that he uses for correction training then I'd consider it abusive. In fact I consider the levels of stim that he uses, that he shows in his DVD, abusive. But I'm working at the level of stim that the dog first feels. Universally humans who experience this "first felt level" (for the human) describe it as a "buzz" or a "tingle." Some call it a "tap." 

Generally there are two ways to use an Ecollar. In one, probably the way that most people use it, the dog is taught the behaviors first and then the Ecollar is used to proof them when the dog is off leash and/or at a distance. Problems can occur if you do this off leash. The stim may confuse the dog, because he doesn’t know what it means or how to make it stop. If he does not do as commanded it can damage the work. Usually it involves using much higher levels of stim. 

The other way is by using the Ecollar to teach the behaviors, even if the dog already knows them. This involves pressing the button, guiding the dog into the desired behavior and then releasing the button. This shows the dog how to shut off the stim and in my experience gives better results. 

BTW Anytime a dog is performing to avoid discomfort, such as from a leash correction, you're using escape training. Some don't realize this. If you're sitting in the sun on a warm day, get too hot and so, go inside to the air conditioning, and don't go outside until it cools down, you've just participated in escape training. Does that sound abusive?


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

So escape training is negative reinforcement and correction training is positive punishment, if I'm understanding it correctly. My understanding is that dogs are primarily positive reinforcement/ negative punishment learners. I'm interested to know more about why this works, and when you should consider using it over more traditional training that is based on positive reinforcement and negative punishment.
BTW- negative punishment really has no effect on Lucy- taking away any attention when she jumps up, for example, means nothing to her. I also have a cat issue among others- she's a drivey dog. I have wondered if I should be considering something different in the future if this sort of behavior does not resolve itself as she grows up, but for now I'm attributing it to puppyhood. My trainer, who is the same as Oliver Annie's, told me yesterday that she's a puppy, and that as her training progresses she'll get to the point where what I say will be more important to her than her drive to chase things. So I'll just have to physically control her until that blessed day comes I guess.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LucinaSo escape training is negative reinforcement and correction training is positive punishment


Escape training, done per my articles is a combination of +P and –R. Correction is pretty much only +P, especially if the nick mode is used. I used continuous for most of my work. 



> Originally Posted By: Lucina My understanding is that dogs are primarily positive reinforcement/ negative punishment learners. I'm interested to know more about why this works, and when you should consider using it over more traditional training that is based on positive reinforcement and negative punishment.


I'm not sure that I agree with this. Dogs are capable of learning, as can any animal, from all parts of OC. I've not heard this theory before, can you tell us where it comes from.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Sure, I'd be glad to because I'm eager to learn about this stuff.
This discussion was on a horse training board I belong to, and different methods of training were being discussed. It was pretty much agreed that horses are primarily negative reinforcement/ positive punishment learners. However, many people reported great results with clicker training with horses, which is NOT negative but positive reinforcement. So it clearly is not one method fits all.
A person who has the qualifications I pay attention to was pointing out the differences between horses and dogs, who learn differently-primarily positive reinforcement and negative punishment. 
She did not say this was exclusive, or that learning by other means was not possible. She said that these were the primary pathways for learning for the different species. Most training of horses is done with negative reinforcement (at least that's how I do it, with GREAT results), and from what I've seen and read most dog training is done with positive reinforcement.
That's why I was wondering when you think e-collar training is useful- all the time, in certain circumstances, etc. 
Thanks so much for your reply. This is how people like me get to learn new stuff, and I am grateful for the input of an educated person. Ultimately I will make my own decisions, but I'd rather make good ones based on the best information out there.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LucinaA person who has the qualifications I pay attention to was pointing out the differences between horses and dogs, who learn differently-primarily positive reinforcement and negative punishment.
> She did not say this was exclusive, or that learning by other means was not possible. She said that these were the primary pathways for learning for the different species. Most training of horses is done with negative reinforcement (at least that's how I do it, with GREAT results), and from what I've seen and read most dog training is done with positive reinforcement.


Thanks Lucina that was a great explanation. I've not heard this before and wonder if this is a personal theory derived from personal experience and observation or if there is any science behind it? 

I think her numbers are off though. Perhaps it's language. There is more training that gets testable results (via competition that demands reliability and precision) that is done with a balance of the quadrants of OC than is done with just +R. I have no stats to support it, it's just my experience and observation. 

In any case I think that all higher animals (above a single cell) learn best via +R (using the terms of Operant Conditioning (OC). The problem comes when the instincts of those animals come into play countering that training and then +R loses much, if not most of its effectiveness. 

Sticking to dogs, once can train a dog to a very high degree of OB and reliability using +R in the absence of distractions, such as in the living room. But as soon as distractions enter the picture, squirrels, cats, skunks, birds, chicken bones, other dogs and people, etc., that OB will fall apart. How well it holds then becomes a matter of how much work the owner/trainer is willing to put into the dog. A bit of liver that has 100% attention in the living room, has a limited amount of power when distractions are present. 

But something that's a punishment, whatever that aversive is, is almost always aversive. AND most importantly the level of most +P's can be raised. The leash can be popped harder, the Ecollar turned up to a higher stim level. You can't do that with a bit of liver. 

BTW it's impossible to train an animal without using punishment and just about impossible to do it without using +P.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Just a follow up to the e-collar. I bought a Dogtra 175 two weeks ago and let Sugar wear it for a week before doing any training. Withing 3 days, the results have been amazing. The bolting from the front door has stopped (There's still an issue with the garage door), she's walking pretty reliably off-leash now, and the crittering is mostly under control except for cats which is still proving difficult to control -- but it's only day 3 of training.

In short, the collar has reduced the training time and increased training effectiveness considerably. I've made more progress in the last 3 days than in the previous 2 months just using treats alone. Even better is that with each passing day, the amount of required e-collar corrections drops. She's responding far better to voice corrections so that collar is now a backup rather than the first choice.

Treats for when she does good -- collar (if required) was she does bad. It's proving to be a very effective combo. She is responding very well to it and the best part is that she happier than ever. The fact that she can now go on walks without a leash has become a new found joy for her.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Oops, I didn't see that Lou had responded to my question about escape training. Briefly, I don't use escape training for the most part. I tried it, but it looked like it was confusing the dog more than helping so I stopped doing it. I mostly use the collar now to stop more serious behavior problems which was the primary goal anyway.

I rarely use the continuous mode at all. 99% of the corrections are typically done using the nick on a low setting. The first day of training used some somewhat higher settings, but she is now 'loaded' on the collar, so only small taps are required at this point.

The one exception to not using escape training is crittering. When Sugar bolts and refuses to 'leave it', I turn the juice up and bump the nick button at one second intervals until she breaks. Usually by the third nick, she's back under control. There has been a couple of instances where I had to lean on the continuous button to get her to stop. She didn't like that one bit, but it did get the point across. She's gotten easier to stop now.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

First, it is likely natural for your dog to chase the cat. You did not mention much about Sugar's background so none of us have any idea is the the dgo is a sporting GSD, and hopefully not an American GS showdog (sorry).

Please read again Mr. Castle's comment about the use of an E-Collar. They are used most extensively to train bear hunting dogs to strickly focus on the bear, and not other animals. Of course there ae other uses; however, shocking a dog to get it to obey in my opinion about the same as shocking your baby, 

Of course, opinions differ, and I will say if you want a dog that obeys, but has no respect for you, an E-Collar will do the job. A perfectly trained dog, that would like another owner.

A few suggestions; a long line and a pronged collar. An electric fence. 

It is tough to provide further comments regarding your situation. For example, good neighbors, a large yard or a small one, and can the cat protect himself. Some dogs have more bark then bite and you might find the cat and dog will eventually get along.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Please read again Mr. Castle's comment about the use of an E-Collar. They are used most extensively to train bear hunting dogs to strickly focus on the bear, and not other animals. Of course there ae other uses; however, shocking a dog to get it to obey in my opinion about the same as shocking your baby,


I dislike such anthropomorphism. It's an emotional appeal that has nothing to do with training a dog. Comparing training a dog to the training of humans is the same only in the most general of circumstances. Punish what you don’t want to repeat and reinforce what you do want to repeat. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 Of course, opinions differ, and I will say if you want a dog that obeys, but has no respect for you, an E-Collar will do the job. A perfectly trained dog, that would like another owner.


Many, if not most, police dogs and many SAR dogs these days are trained with the assistance of Ecollars. There is no stronger bond that exists between man and dog (sorry for the sexism) than in those relationships. 

Contrary to the popular myth that Ecollars destroy the bonds between dogs and handlers, if used properly, they strengthen those bonds and can even create them when an attitude of fear or aggression exists on the dog's part. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 A few suggestions; a long line and a pronged collar. An electric fence.


Nothing wrong with a long line and a pinch collar but I'm not a fan of Efences. Dogs in drive have been known to blast right through them when chasing something. But then they can't get back over the wire. They also don't stop other animals from entering the area.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> Contrary to the popular myth that Ecollars destroy the bonds between dogs and handlers, if used properly, they strengthen those bonds and can even create them when an attitude of fear or aggression exists on the dog's part.
> 
> 
> ...


I can attest to the building of the bond while using an e-collar for training. I have 5 rescue dogs....4 GSD's and a Yorkie all of which I trained via e-collar using a method closely mirroring Lou's. Not only are they some of the best trained dogs I have ever had the pleasure to live with but the bond we share is amazing. They are focused on me constantly, even when we go to the beach for a bit of water fun. I "TRY" to slip away from them but it is impossible. They have one eye on the toys or water and the other on me.

I am really amazed at some people's idea of humane training Lou. Some have no problem putting a spiked collar around their dogs neck and "popping" for a correction or putting a dog behind an e-fence which delivers a correction higher than most dogs will EVER experience from an e-collar when used properly BUT mention training with an e-collar and DEAR GOD they start spinning like rotisserie chickens!


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Sugar is doing wonderfully on her collar. She's walking off-leash now and the crittering has been greatly reduced. She actually looks forward to having the collar put on because she knows it's time go to walkies.

The side effect is that she has likely become collar-smart which is not desirable. However, her off-collar behavior has improved as well. She's been on the collar for a week now and the last 2 days have not required any corrections other than voice. This is in spite of having encountered 2 herds of deer today and having a strange dog run up to us. I have to say I'm very pleased with the results the collar has provided and in such a short time. Sugar is enjoying her walks too.

As an aside, you may want to read thru some of the posts here:

http://www.dogster.com/forums/Behavior_and_Training/thread/552770

There is no shortage of people in that particular forum who view the collars as a form of cruelty and dangerous to the dog. Let me summarize that I got an earful there when I mentioned the use of the collar.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I can ONLY imagine. I will be checking it out later today.

In the mean time...here is an excellent study by professionals on the use of remote training collars. It is a good reference to back up statements out harm to dogs from e-collars.

http://www.trainmypet.net/documents/white_paper.pdf


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

That paper was offered to calm fears about the ecollar in the other discussion. But it was immediately rejected by collar opponents because it was published by the trade group that makes collars. An independent paper would have carried more weight, but I think the critics were simply trying to kill the messenger in this case rather than evaluate any salient points.

The critics of the collar offered this study in rebuttal done in 2003 in the Netherlands:

http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

However, the study used stim levels that produced visible distress in the dogs studied (yelping, running in fear, cowering, etc.). In short, they were using the collar in a manner that many ecollar users would likely find abusive. It was no surprise that at the end of the study, the collared dogs were suffering from psychological problems. The collars were blamed for this.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Of course the collar was blamed. 

I have to go back and look at where the study I posted originated. I believe that the company that posted the paper does not manufacture e-collars but e-fence which is a horse of a different color. The company does sell e-collars I believe. Like I said, I need to research a little before I assemble the troops LOL


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CalipsoThat paper was offered to calm fears about the ecollar in the other discussion. But it was immediately rejected by collar opponents because it was published by the trade group that makes collars. An independent paper would have carried more weight, but I think the critics were simply trying to kill the messenger in this case rather than evaluate any salient points.


This is what they always do. Of course the study that they provided was funded by a group that opposes Ecollars so a similar criticism can be laid at their feet. 



> Originally Posted By: CalipsoThe critics of the collar offered this study in rebuttal done in 2003 in the Netherlands:


http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf 

That's known as "The Schilder Study" and is one of the worst pieces of pseudo science ever foisted on the public. There's a critique of it on my website at http://loucastle.com/schilder.htm Feel free to use it. 

The main problem with it was that they used completely subjective criteria to evaluate the responses of the dogs to the stim. They measured such things as "ear carriage and lip licking" as signs of "stress" (and more) without any admission that there are many other reasons that dogs do these things. There was also no control group, they could easily tell which dogs were wearing active Ecollars so they could interpret responses their any way they wanted.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

> Quote:Instead of instilling social aversion and anxiety as suggested by the authors, competent electronic training may actually promote social attachment, reward, and safety


Sugar is certainly enjoying her ecollar training. She is happy as can be exploring outside the confines of her yard on her walks. The collar has been reduced to being a safety device. The last 3 days have not required any corrections from the collar.

One thing I started to do was combine the collar with a clicker. Within a couple of sessions I just about got her stopping and sitting when I stop without any commands. She's about 70% now on this new behavior.

I also found a way to encourage her to keep up with me off-leash. When she falls behind (usually to investigate some good smell), I start running away from her. She is a velcro dog and doesn't like being left behind. The moment she sees me escaping, she takes off in a full run to get back to me. A treat awaits. The goal is to exploit her velcro nature and prey drive. It's working great.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Mr. Castle, one quick note. The person that talked about the successful use of the E-Collar, also discussed being able to tone down the shock levels, while you and many others lean heavily toward only a nick.

In my opinion the reason this person got the dog to obey so quickly, is the amount of shock initially applied was on the high end.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Mr. Castle, one quick note. The person that talked about the successful use of the E-Collar, also discussed being able to tone down the shock levels, while you and many others lean heavily toward only a nick.


I advocate almost the exclusive use of the constant mode. I only use the nick mode for advanced work or with dogs too sensitive for the constant at the lowest levels. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1In my opinion the reason this person got the dog to obey so quickly, is the amount of shock initially applied was on the high end.


You can get very quick results with the recall with high levels of stim but it may cause fallout, unexpected, undesired results. It usually doesn't work well with other commands unless the dog makes the right guess as to how to make it stop. 

I prefer to use low levels of stim from the start and guide the dog into the proper behavior


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