# Someone please explain the numbers in line-breeding?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I would like to think of myself and pretty knowledgeable when it comes to dealing with the actual pup or dog, but I am a complete newb when it comes to the numbers in line breeding. For example what does a 2-3 line bred dog mean?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

it means the same dog is in the second generation on the top (sire) and third generation on the bottom


Lee


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> it means the same dog is in the second generation on the top (sire) and third generation on the bottom
> 
> 
> Lee


So, what would be the purpose of this kind of breeding? Like, how does it compare to a 5-5 breeding? I'm a bit embarrassed that I cannot grasp the logic of this.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The goal is to get as uniform a litter as possible in regards to desirable traits. You must trust a breeder doing the line-breeding, as it tends to emphasize both the good and the bad of whatever dogs are used the most. 

Ask the breeder why he chose whatever dogs he did to line-breed to, that will tell you a lot about how the pups might turn out, good or bad. 

Health checks are also very important, as recessive health issues tend to pop up with closely bred animals.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> The goal is to get as uniform a litter as possible in regards to desirable traits. You must trust a breeder doing the line-breeding, as it tends to emphasize both the good and the bad of whatever dogs are used the most.
> 
> Ask the breeder why he chose whatever dogs he did to line-breed to, that will tell you a lot about how the pups might turn out, good or bad.
> 
> Health checks are also very important, as recessive health issues tend to pop up with closely bred animals.


So is 2-3 closely bred? The dog is known to be a very hard, over the top dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, Think of it this way. 

The sire of your pup and the dam are the first generation -- 1. 
The grand parents are second generation -- 2. 
And the great grand parents are the third generation -- 3. 

So a 2-3 line breeding on a male, would be the sire of the sire is the grandsire of the dam, or vice-versa.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

2-3 is not uncommon, but yes it is close. Close line-breeding can be a good thing if you are trying to produce what that dog has. But you have to really know the lines, because whatever genes that dog is producing are much more likely to come out in a greater percent of the puppies. 

A lot of genes need to be present on both the sire and the dam's side, and be handed down. So if the dog is a carrier of that gene, let's say black coat. You are more likely to get a black coat, since you need it on both sides, and by having a black coated dog as the sire of the sire, being the grandsire of the dam, I believe the sire would certainly carry the gene, even if he was not black. The dam would be 50/50 chance I believe. So if she carried the gene, then you would probably get some black puppies. 

The thing is, it isn't just color. Conformation faults, temperament issues, and health problems are much more likely to come out in the puppies. The close breeding doesn't cause the issues, but a significantly higher incidence of them will occur. And as there really are no perfect dogs out there, it's a real risk. 

Someone here told me that Germany changed their criteria from 2-3 being the closest allowable breeding, to 3-3. I am not sure that is true though. I think 2-3 is pretty common in American Showlines. I don't know about working lines. They seem to be less fixed on breeding close. Show dogs are bred with an emphasis on traits that can be seen, and the best way to get uniformity in conformation is tight line-breeding. The thing is, so many of the German dogs are already heavy on the same dogs, that you really do not need 2-3 to have an over-abundance of this dog or that, and cookie-cutter uniformity. You might not have any repeats in the first 4 generations and have the same dog 4 or 5 times in the fifth. 

And that's another thing, a 2-3 line breeding on a great dog might not be the end of the world, but what about a 2-3 on a breeding pair? Legally, it is still a 2-3 line breeding. Let's do an example:
Jax -- Puppy
Gus/Lola -- 1
Herko/Bear, Gispo/Jenna -- 2
Fasko/Opaya, Gispo/Jenna; Vegas/Xara, Dubya/Arwen -- 3

It is a 2-3 line breeding on both Gispo and Jenna. Gus's was bred to his mother's sister, his aunt. And while the distribution of genes between sisters is different, both are individuals, the chances/risks are even greater than if Gus was bred to his mother's half-sister. It is almost like a 1-2 breeding where a dog is bred to his mother, or a bitch to her sire, but not quite. Add to that that both Gispo and Herko go back to Pakros and Karma, the pup is loaded down with these dogs, good dogs. But if one of those dogs is passing on undesirable traits/disease, then I think you get the picture. And if the dog isn't affected, most likely the dog will be a carrier to whatever disease, meaning that if the dog is bred to a dog with the condition, they will most likely produce it 

But, it's a 2-3 line breeding and that's ok. Personally, I think if you are going to do a 2-3, you should really be aiming for something specific, and know everything possible about the dog and the dogs behind the dog you what to breed this heavily on.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

selzer said:


> 2-3 is not uncommon, but yes it is close. Close line-breeding can be a good thing if you are trying to produce what that dog has. But you have to really know the lines, because whatever genes that dog is producing are much more likely to come out in a greater percent of the puppies.
> 
> A lot of genes need to be present on both the sire and the dam's side, and be handed down. So if the dog is a carrier of that gene, let's say black coat. You are more likely to get a black coat, since you need it on both sides, and by having a black coated dog as the sire of the sire, being the grandsire of the dam, I believe the sire would certainly carry the gene, even if he was not black. The dam would be 50/50 chance I believe. So if she carried the gene, then you would probably get some black puppies.
> 
> ...


I hear that if you breed this close, the dog might not be "right in the head". Furthermore (and a bit off topic), this might be why so many pit bulls aren't stable. Stupid people with no brains breed a brother to a sister, and the pups come out cute looking but then turn into unpredictable dogs. Again this is just what I hear. 

Also, what would be an ideal breeding? 4-4? 5-5?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

IDK about ideal line breeding. I would think it would be dependant on the dogs. 2-3 would seem OK if the dogs were solid all around dogs. The further back the more diluted it would be so purposeful 5-5 line breeding probably doesn't play much of a role. Apollo is 5-5 line bred. The way it looks to me is that 5 generations back the same mother and father on both sides but from different litters. Apollo Captain Woodcox

Now if I were to breed Apollo and Athena I would have 4-3 line breeding with the dog in common being Flash vom Kraftwerk
While I have no intention of breeding my dogs I would think that a dog like this on a 2-3 or 2-2 wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gh1MAM&usg=AFQjCNEK8ces9gC2Wl5NRtqR7TIrp6KoAQ
Books and articles about working dog genetics and breeding


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Julian G said:


> I hear that if you breed this close, the dog might not be "right in the head". Furthermore (and a bit off topic), this might be why so many pit bulls aren't stable. Stupid people with no brains breed a brother to a sister, and the pups come out cute looking but then turn into unpredictable dogs. Again this is just what I hear.
> 
> Also, what would be an ideal breeding? 4-4? 5-5?


Any dog might not be right in the head. The litter I mentioned, was a real litter, I did not breed it. The dogs have good temperament, and are for the most part quite healthy, good representatives of the breed. 1 out of the six had to be put down as a puppy due to liver shunts, and she had some other problems, but the multiple liver shunts caused the euthanasia. The owners took her down to Ohio State, did everything but finally had to throw in the towel. All the dogs were "right in the head." I don't know, but if you continue to breed close, that lack of diversity in the gene pool, might be that some combinations of genes might create issues with intelligence, aggression, stability, etc. If it is inheritable, then limiting the genes and breeding back into itself will eventually cause problems to come out. 

Ideal breeding? It could be 4,4-4,5,5. And it could be 3-4. And it could be, well, just about anything. Breeding is more than matching up pedigrees. First, you have to know what you are breeding for. 

Good angulation? Well, no, see, you can't be breeding for one thing -- any one thing. Because a GSD is a mixture of heritable traits that, where to improve one without considering the whole is a path to destruction. A pretty dog with a sharp temperament is a recipe for disaster. A wonderful dog with terrible health is just a heart-breaker. We have to breed considering everything back there, but when breeding up close, we need to know what we are trying to accomplish. 

Your question really doesn't have a single answer.

Pedigree is only a part. You have to look at the dogs in front of you. 50% of the genes come from the sire, 50% from the dam, but the number of combinations is way more than the number of progeny possible. We know about dominant genes, and recessives, and affected dogs and carriers, but we don't know it all. Sometimes you have a dog that improves a trait. 

And then there is the problem with truly knowing what a dog does produce. You have to know the dogs. Breeders are hesitant to stay, "well the stud I've been using for the last five years, produces elbow dysplasia, MegE, and floppy ears, but never hip dysplasia or EPI. Instead, the breeder, like as not is going to believe the dog she did not use that much introduced the problems and is now wiped out of her lines. Breeding is tough, because you have to be brutally honest to yourself regardless to the repercussions.

Lastly, sometimes a 1-2 breeding is done to find out what a dog carries. I know a breeder who has bred that close for that reason. I don't want to voice an opinion of that since I really not sure what I think about it.


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