# Car z Oravskej Doliny..wow



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Was tooling around and came across this male that Nate is bringing up. Loved the work in his vids especially for such a young male. Now Im no pedigree guru but it seems like this ped is stacked to the max. 

Sportwaffen K9

Correct me if Im wrong?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

stacked for what ?

visit this discussion http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...3337-tell-me-about-hypothetical-breeding.html

Axel Vom Barth

question - owner agitates own dog into social aggression to keep him in that state


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Stacked for IPO. I must be a minority here on this board, because I actually really like T Litter V. Bosen Nacharschaft. My own dog is 4-5 on Half and I love his combination of sportiness and aggression. Again, another thing that people on this board do not seem to like is sportiness. I have a new girl who has minimal Fero in her and she is not sporty at all. Matter of fact, she is so laid back that the jury is still out weather or not I will even do IPO with her.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yep I like sporty and I like a dog with ball drive-To the OP-I would ask Nate-or go see the dog in person


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I thought the video of his mother at the bottom of that page was hilarious!

She was definitely enjoying herself!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

robk said:


> Again, another thing that people on this board do not seem to like is sportiness. I have a new girl who has minimal Fero in her and she is not sporty at all. Matter of fact, she is so laid back that the jury is still out weather or not I will even do IPO with her.


Give her to me! 

It all depends on what you want to do with your dog. I am sure the folks who engage in sport like a sporty dog, but there is a pretty wide demographic on this forum and not everyone is into sport. A dog with a sporty temperament would be wasted on me, for example. I like enough drive to make training easy, but not so much that the dog is bouncing off the walls. A dog like that really needs an outlet, a job. I prefer the "laid back" ones, personally.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

that is funny...however all the $ I have spent on dental-that can not be good for the dogs teeth-crazy dog-lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It's just that there is so much Troll and Timmy and other Fero combinations --- you hit a saturation point. 
Half was bred to an amazing female with a stacked pedigree Ina Gard .

I would like to see some doubling up on her .

Or someone find that one great dog out there that is "unknown" but a gem


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

My schutzhund TD has the brother to Car's dam. He is a very sporty dog! High prey drive, crazy ball drive and hard as nails. I would not say he was a "real" dog by any means. Reminds me of a dumb jock. Lights are on and know one is home. He did well in IPO though. 

P.S. I really do like him. Even though I was hard on him just now. Not my particular taste in dog but a good dog none the less.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sporty dogs are great for sport....and if you are quite involved in sport why would you not like them.....but that doesn't make them standard bearers that everyone should breed to....therein lies the issue!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and that friends is why we have yet another split sport / working .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Im curious, what issues you all see with this dog? When someone says a dog is sporty I percieve that to mean a lack of actual aggression, will not bite without equipment, and nervy. I saw a lot of notable names in the pedigrees that are well known great dogs, however I dont pretend to grasp what makes a good combo.

What I do know I loved the work for a relatively immature male.
Nate works a dog on the street he knows what a good dog is, I know for a fact he likes his dogs civil, real and hard.
Based on what you see would you say this dog would not pass an LEO evaluation? He sure looks like he would do well on the street to me. I could be wrong of course. 

FYI I dont think high drive necessarily means crazy in the house.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

His entry on the long bite is INSANE and what stood out too me. 
Looked at his pedigree again and noticed the similarity between him and axel. Is it troll and fero in the back that makes him sporty?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

5 - 5............................................. in SG Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft
5 - 5............................................. in V Orlie vom Körbelbach
4 - 4............................................. in SG Half vom Ruhbachtal

I was under the impression Half was a real dog is the line breeding on him an issue?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im curious, what issues you all see with this dog? When someone says a dog is sporty I percieve that to mean a lack of actual aggression, will not bite without equipment, and nervy. I saw a lot of notable names in the pedigrees that are well known great dogs, however I dont pretend to grasp what makes a good combo.
> 
> What I do know I loved the work for a relatively immature male.
> Nate works a dog on the street he knows what a good dog is, I know for a fact he likes his dogs civil, real and hard.
> ...


Nate does know what a real dog is. He said there in the page that Car "is absolutely for top sport" which in interpret at face value. With the right female, offspring can still be very nice for many roles outside of sport


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have a dog who does well at schutzhund-for the sake of the argument we will say she is a sport dog-does not matter too much to me either way. when she was a year old I was visiting a friend in the nursing home and the staff invited her in-I now take her to where I work-I love it she loves it and we have had some great experiences -I would consider that a working dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as a pedigree learning experience I found you , Blitzkrieg , a sample of a pedigree that is stacked - and more balanced and yet still has that T litter bosen nachbarschaft beam in the structure of it . with the stronger Troll instead of Timmy 
*Linebreeding - 5 generations*


5 - 4............................................. in V Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
4 - 5,3........................................... in V Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft
5 - 4............................................. in V Askia vom Froschgraben
3 - 4............................................. in V Yoschy von der Döllenwiese
4 - 5............................................. in SG Mona von der Döllenwiese
BSP, V Olek von der Maineiche
strong female lines -- pedigree allows for diversity in breeding the next generations - not so narrowed


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "
I have a dog who does well at schutzhund-for the sake of the argument we will say she is a sport dog-does not matter too much to me either way. when she was a year old I was visiting a friend in the nursing home and the staff invited her in-I now take her to where I work-I love it she loves it and we have had some great experiences -I would consider that a working dog "

excellent -- and I would call that a socially stable dog (which is a good thing)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here was my question , but this time look at it from the perspective from hunterisgreat's comments "question - owner agitates own dog into social aggression to keep him in that state "

Dogs that have a deep natural active / social aggression , have it , don't loose it if they don't use it , don't have to have it brought to the surface. These are the calm , serious dogs . Which sport doesn't want to see , because there is no flash. Blitzkrieg there are many threads that you may want to visit -- check Vandal's posts . This is a trait that sport is not remembering , lots of decoys haven't seen or don't know how to work , or owners are disappointed in because the dog's thresholds are so high that typical decoy agitation , which is PREY , booty , doesn't ignite them. Real threat -- oh yeah --- .

So is this Car dog lots and lots of prey - it is what I see from the you tubes -- . Social aggression isn't created - it IS -- . You have to watch that you don't use the dog's "fight" as the option , not flight, that you don't tip the balance and just create a failure in the pause-check it out decision period and have a hot defensive reactive dog .
Brains out the window. 

On your little pup -- you have that potential for the active aggression -- keep that in the back of your mind when you start agitation --- because if you don't know this you may think you have a flat dog . I did have Bronson's son and daughter , and later another combination through a Bronson son . Don't go by the press , look and get a feel for the dog in front of you . You train the dog not the pedigree .

An owner agitating a dog in active aggression , there own dog , would be just damaging the relationship, trust, rank with the dog . Not a game .

see-- the broker and the importer do know the difference !!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Carmen,

Olek is nice; we bred to him 5 years ago, when we identified him as an up and coming dog. Litter was nice, but liked Rosso and Aerry litters much better.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so -- I can see by this pedigree that you would have good active aggression , good social aggression , more than just prey -- for those that knew Olek or used him , is this correct ? Was he still clear ? 

refresh my memory on Rosso . Can you post Rosso and Aerry litters for comparison .


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

carmspack said:


> as a pedigree learning experience I found you , Blitzkrieg , a sample of a pedigree that is stacked - and more balanced and yet still has that T litter bosen nachbarschaft beam in the structure of it . with the stronger Troll instead of Timmy
> *Linebreeding - 5 generations*
> 
> 
> ...



I really like this pedigree a lot.

And Sue, your depth of experience with these dogs is a treasure! I am such a fan of your program!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> here was my question , but this time look at it from the perspective from hunterisgreat's comments "question - owner agitates own dog into social aggression to keep him in that state "
> 
> Dogs that have a deep natural active / social aggression , have it , don't loose it if they don't use it , don't have to have it brought to the surface. These are the calm , serious dogs . Which sport doesn't want to see , because there is no flash. Blitzkrieg there are many threads that you may want to visit -- check Vandal's posts . This is a trait that sport is not remembering , lots of decoys haven't seen or don't know how to work , or owners are disappointed in because the dog's thresholds are so high that typical decoy agitation , which is PREY , booty , doesn't ignite them. Real threat -- oh yeah --- .
> 
> ...


Interesting so Car is not as desirable because his pedigree limits the options of other bloodlines to breed into? Do you think he would pass the test as an LE dog?

As for the pup she is only 3 months so who knows what she will become. However, she is currently showing lots of prey and sharpness. The TD has already indicated that if she continues developing this way real aggression will not be an issue and not something we will have to work to bring out. The main focus right now is prey and confidence building.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

blitzkrieg do go and read Vandals post on the is the European gene pool ruined or some such approximation of thread name .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First, I do NOT associate a sport dog with " nervy". I have seen some extremely stable sport dogs. I associate a sport dog usually with genetics and behaviors that stack the deck for sport work. Often an imbalance in drives usually with prey being dominate. This is great for obedience and flying long bites. ( yes Half and Timmy were known for passing good aggression, but it didn't lessen the prey....so if other components of the pedigree have strong prey basis you have makings of sport material. I also often see a lack of hunt drive and sufficient aggression in sport dogs. Not all, but many dogs today LIVE for something to carry around in their mouth. Even in face of threat they still hold on to what's in their mouth...that's not balance and something that has been created in past thirty years.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> First, I do NOT associate a sport dog with " nervy". I have seen some extremely stable sport dogs. I associate a sport dog usually with genetics and behaviors that stack the deck for sport work. Often an imbalance in drives usually with prey being dominate. This is great for obedience and flying long bites. ( yes Half and Timmy were known for passing good aggression, but it didn't lessen the prey....so if other components of the pedigree have strong prey basis you have makings of sport material. I also often see a lack of hunt drive and sufficient aggression in sport dogs. Not all, but many dogs today LIVE for something to carry around in their mouth. Even in face of threat they still hold on to what's in their mouth...that's not balance and something that has been created in past thirty years.


Just read this thanks for the clarification Cliff this makes sense.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

....actually many sport dogs have super duper nerve, so much so that many sport people judge all dogs on this nerve now seen. But the key to the breed, IMO, is balance. Many sport dogs have accentuated prey drive and it became necessary to elevate the nerve to be able to transform this drive into productive performance on the field. Voila, the creation of top sport dogs that with skilled handlers become great point dogs. This is prevalent today, although there are still dogs participating in sport with strong drives and aggression.....it is much easier to handle the over the top drives with super nerve and decreased sharpness/aggression, often because the balance is gone and the prey will override other traits while in drive....hope this makes sense. Disclaimer.....this is not all sport dogs, but definitely the trend these days with the goals and genetics of the " pure" sport dogs, IMO.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes it makes sense. I think people perceive leo dogs as all being the best of the best. My club has several brokers that often sell to LEO and its usually first or second tier sport dogs. Have grip issues, nerve, DA, etc. Someone once said to me that the purp wont care whether the dog is biting in prey or defence. All he knows is that there are teeth in him. I guess many top sport dogs are quite capable of passing leo tests but it doesnt necessarily make him a great representative of the breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

LEO people want overall good old dogs....that represent the breed. They want hard grips whether it is full or 3/4. They want good drive to work and maintain intensity, they don't need super prey drive, they want good nerve with good suspicion, they want courage and fight drive, they want hunt drive and hardness(resiliency), a good policedog usually has an effective amount of these traits, too much suspicion....not good, too much prey( with GS) ....often not good, no fight element....not good. I am not putting down sport dogs whatsoever, but what you use and stress in any endeavor is what the dogs become eventually in that venue. Show emphasizes structure, but has lost other elements as they aren't necessary in the show world, things like hunt and fight drive aren't necessary to be excellent in sport, prey and nerve is necessary....so the gravitation is in that direction. The people deeply involved in show think they have the best representatives, the people deeply involved in sport think they have the best representatives, and so on.........


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Makes sense, then again when your kennelling the dog and demanding nothing more then success on the field you can see how this came about. I suppose if more top sport dogs were used in multiple venues and utilities more weakness in the ballance of drives would be exposed in some cases. Lol still think WL are better then SL any day.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Was watching a PSA trial recently and saw some dogs do poorly or get run that would have done ok at Schh. Its too bad the sport has watered down the pressure in protection.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

He's a cutie! I don't like the IPO stuff, but I love a gorgeous dog.


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