# Can Pit Bulls be good protection dogs?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I have read on many sites that Pit Bulls or bully breeds are not good for home protection because they simply love people so much. They might let an intruder into the home without bark or bite. I just want to know if any of you guys have experience with pit bulls for protection. I have fostered pits in the past. I did not train them for protection or anything of the sort. They were all VERY sweet and docile dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

There is no breed standard for Pits and it is a huge melting pot of all types. You never know whet you get until the pup is at least 3 years old. Some Pit looking dogs are not even Pits, if there is such a thing as The Pit.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> There is no breed standard for Pits and it is a huge melting pot of all types. You never know whet you get until the pup is at least 3 years old. Some Pit looking dogs are not even Pits, if there is such a thing as The Pit.


I know what you mean, which is why I never fully owned one. I guess I consider staffordshire terriers to be the truest form? I don't even know lol.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Julian G said:


> I know what you mean, which is why I never fully owned one. I guess I consider staffordshire terriers to be the truest form? I don't even know lol.


At least a good breeder can give you more reliable information (pedigrees, meeting parent dogs, references, etc.). Look for AKC as other registrations seem to be more flexible.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... well most likely a full on "Bully" bashing thread in the making??? But for those of who are "Responsible" Pitty and Pitty Derivative owners (bite stats not withstanding) ... yes as you say they tend to "Luv" people! The D/A thing ... yeah that's another issue ... usually takes work there ... I've found and if you do the work ... it works out fine. In my experience.

And of course sigh ... "PPD" GSD or a Mal is the way to go! Honestly ... you can't argue with numbers. But someone on here was working with training a Cane Corso as a PPD and as opposed to a GSD ... they overlaid "obedience training first" before moving onto the "PPD" phase. Most likely with anything "Bully" ... that would be the way to go??

There are "PPD" Bullies out there but they are very different dogs to work/motivate. Lots of info on the "differences" can be found here.: 

Dr. P's Dog Training: Belgian Malinois vs. American Pit Bull Terrier


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I have owned 4 pit or pit mixes and fostered many more than that...

NO. they do NOT make good "protection dogs". 

Furthermore, any individuals that happen to show characteristics needed for true protection ability - should be culled.

They don't have the genetic obedience and discernment that the more traditional protection breeds have had bred into them. Too much game and too much independence to be safe.

IMO being a responsible pit bull owner means constantly shutting drives DOWN. Not doing the building neccessary for protection work.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I have owned 4 pit or pit mixes and fostered many more than that...
> 
> NO. they do NOT make good "protection dogs".
> 
> ...


And so ... it begins.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> And so ... it begins.


LMAO. 

I am seriously the very last person to "bash" pit bulls 

It's from my love for the breed, and desire to see it preserved, from where my pitbulls make crappy protection dogs opinion come from.

They are not naturally human aggressive - so most don't have the chops for it to begin with. Then the ones that do have the abilities - there are plenty of reasons not to train them for it. 

Have you ever worked with game bred dogs Chip? 
I have. Many of them. They are much more difficult to control while they are in drive than our herding breeds. Thus the reason I carried a break stick. Their biting style will cause far more damage than a similar sized shepherd. Making them a liability. 

Plus they really don't to get the attention of bozos with more machismo than brains breeding for HA in order to produce the biggest baddest dogs on the block. A problem that has plagued the breed for the last 30 years and has caused hundreds of people to lose their lives and caused the death of thousands of dogs too.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

No this is not a pit bashing thread at all. In fact, when I hear people saying things like "those dogs should all be put down" or "they are a bad breed" I have always tried to defend these dogs. I can remember when a large pit was running through the neighborhood lost, everyone ran for their lives, the dog ran into the street. I walked up to him and signaled a speeding car to stop and got between the car and the dog. I took him by the leash and led him to my house. Everyone ran inside scared for their lives, the owner comes 30 minutes later saying he left the gate open and he got loose. He was such a mean looking dog but was the sweetest thing ever. I know if I had waited a couple more minutes he would have been hit by a car or a cop would shoot him without hesitation. 
These dogs make great hunting dogs, it;s just that I have only seen a handful being trained for protection. Honestly something felt weird about it. Like they shouldn't be trained for this sort of thing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wouldn't pick a pit bull for protection work.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

More and more police departments are pulling them from shelters and using them, but they are using them for scent and drug work because they have't been able to train them to do bite work, they generally don't want to bite a person.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

A pit would not be a good protection dog. Due to genetics and prey drive it would be disastrous. A pit in drive will kill. Its genetic. Terrier. Same as if it were a Jack or Parsons Russell Terrier. 
We all talk about genetics being so prevalent in Shepherd, well it's prevalent in pits also.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Police departments don't make a habit out of trolling shelters for dogs to perform work venues. It is rare when it happens and should be presented as such. I don't know where these rumors get started. Although proven untrue, they seem to rear their ugly heads in every Pit Bull thread and that is when things get ugly.

Animal Farm Foundation, Inc., is a non profit organization whose mission statement is to secure equal treatment and opportunity for "pit bull" dogs. AFF has a program where they work with a K9 training organization where they sponsor the pulling of shelter dogs for single purpose K9 work, all training, all boarding, and subsequent handler training to place these cherry picked shelter dogs into service. Not all dogs selected by the training organization are Pit Bulls, most are not, as they find other breeds are more suitable for the work. Once trained, these shelter dogs are placed in financially challenged communities that normally would not be able to afford such a dog. 

To present the truth as anything else, is misleading and falsely promotes the image of the breed as something it is not.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> There is no breed standard for Pits and it is a huge melting pot of all types. You never know whet you get until the pup is at least 3 years old. Some Pit looking dogs are not even Pits, if there is such a thing as The Pit.


A Pit Bull is an American Pit Bull Terrier, complete with its own breed standard for over 100 years. 

ADBA

The American Dog Breeders Association, Inc. was started in September, l909 as a multiple breed association*(view original documentation here).*The residing president, Mr. Guy McCord, along with co-founder Con Feeley, were avid fanciers and breeders of the American Pit Bull Terrier, and were close friends of Mr. John P. Colby.

Mr. Colby was the mainstay of the ADBA which prompted the boast of being the “home” registration office of the Colby dogs. All members, in good standing, could register their dogs and litters with the registration department upon the yearly payment of $2.50 dues fee. It seems that the exclusive members idea gradually was replaced into an open registry of multiple breeds and over time the ADBA focused*on the registration of the American Pit Bull Terrier.

https://adbadog.com/history-of-the-adba/

"When it was created in 1878, the American Kennel Club refused to register pit bulls, seeing them as dogs kept by people of low breeding. The Kennel Club was interested in dignified dogs, not working dogs, and especially not dogs that acted as the canine equivalent of a barbed-wire and locust-post fence.

In frustration, pit bull owner Chauncey Bennet created his own registry -- the United Kennel Club -- in order to to register his own dog. Today, the UKC is the second largest all-breed registry in the U.S., and it remains a for-profit, privately-held operation."

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2006/05/what-****-is-american-staffordshire.html

The AKC stopped crossed registering American Staffordshire Terriers and Pit Bull back in the 70s, the UKC has only recently done the same.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> LMAO.
> 
> I am seriously the very last person to "bash" pit bulls
> 
> ...


Oh ... an actual question?? So I have no choice but to answer! And my answer would be no! 

But ... San Jose Ca ... no shortage of them! So I've not "owned" one but I faced one down! A typical 85 lb "APBT" busted out of a front door and came after my "puppy" with intend to do harm!!! Yeah ... that is not gonna happen! All that dog saw was my puppy not me?? I intervened and that slowed him down enough for hit owner to scoop him up! But yesss ... he meant business but so did I! 

My link is from an "expert" that does "Game Breed" Pits so those are his assessments. I'm just "JQP" "pet owner" and I had thought I was going to do the "PPD" thing?? But ... you know to much work. 

Still that was my "goal" and "Game Breed" or not for my taste ..."APBT" are to short. So I went for a "Pit Derivative." American Band Dawg ... no shortage of them out there. 

And ideally that would be ... a cross between a "Working Neo" and an "APBT!" But ... there are endless variations thereof. If one wants to know about "Working Band Dawgs" that's where to look. 


My guy was a "Bull Mastiff/APBT/Lab cross" I did not know at the time that Bull Mastiffs are kinda lazy?? That and the Lab mix in "my Gunther" pretty much assured me no "people issues." The "APBT" cross however?? Yeah most likely game bred pitts?? Gunthers Lab mom "looked" like a Lab ...but did not act like one??? She was not a dog you would want to cross! And Gunther .. seemed "otherwise" OK. But ... the other dogs thing ... I was new at the time, and I clearly understood ... that yeah "something here" was not as expected?? 

Gunther was the only dog I have ever had an "eval" done with by a "Pro!" And he (Gunther) was pronucnced as not "Aggressive" but as a "Dominate Male" dog. So ... to your point ... if he were "allowed" to go over the top ... there was going to be "issues!" If ... I had been "foolish" enough to "Dog Park" him he was a "fight waiting to happen!" The good news??? Would be win or lose ... "no behavioral issues" to be addressed there!" It would be ... just another day at the "Dog Park!" So yeah ... we did not go to "Dog Parks" I taught him to "ignore other dogs, worked out fine. 

But yes ... if you allow a "APBT" a "Game Breed" Pit to get into "High Drive" then yes to your point ... "good luck with that!! Most likely that's why the member on here that did help with the "CC" did one year of formal" obedience first" before any "PPD" work! 

So if ... one were to "allow" a "Game Breed" to get into "high drive" prior to any formal obedience work ... yeah ....

But hey what do I know?? Prior to my "Boxer" ... "APBT/Boxer" cross madness, my goal was set on a Dogo Argentino." Yeah baby ... that's a dawg! 

But sigh ... at least for me ... the "Boxer thing!" I fell in luv in with "Boxers." My "APBT/Boxers" had no D/A issues?? The only reason I did not get another Boxer/APBT cross was because at the time ... I could not find one at that time?? 

"APBT" maybe many things ...but "Goofy" is not one of them! No idea on the "Euro Boxers??" On Boxerforum they "say" there dogs are not ... WL GSD's in "Boxer skin??" A curious point of contention?? 

Oh well ... tangents aside ... a "Bully" is not a GSD or a Mal. If you want simple and proven go with those! If one wants to be different the the "Bully World" is pretty much wide open! And then at least a year of formal obedience work "first" seems a reasonable way to go?? 

If one cant do that "first?" Then just get a "WL GSD" for a "PPD" and call it day.  

So yes to your point a "PPD" "APBT" is ... not for everyone! But ... that does not mean they cant do that job ... also.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> More and more police departments are pulling them from shelters and using them, but they are using them for scent and drug work because they have't been able to train them to do bite work, they generally don't want to bite a person.


 By and large most "responsible" "Pitt and derivatives" thereof owners would agree with you! And yet the "bad numbers" are staggering! 

Perhaps more questions need to be asked of "crack head" "Pit" owners as to how they are actually produce such unstable "Pit's" in such great quantity?? I honestly have no idea ... how do you actually create an "unstable human hostile dog??" Most likely a ... lack of imagination on my part?? 

Don't know ... perhaps if I go with ... "Well if I were a "tool" and had a "Game Breed Pit" what would I do to create an unstable H/A dog??


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So where does all of the pit bites come from. Do these dogs who would never bite their owners one day suddenly work themselves into prey drive and therefore attack. Seems to be a lot of kids or other dogs attacked. So it kind of makes sense.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It is fascinating how many threads on this forum talk about pit bulls. I have read more about them here than I ever have anywhere else. Why are we so obsessed with another breed?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A Pit Bull is an American Pit Bull Terrier, complete with its own breed standard for over 100 years.
> 
> ADBA
> 
> ...


Are you saying ... the UKC no longer "dual registers" the "APBT and The American Staffordshire Terrier as the same breed??? 

Because I know ... that if you insulate to someone that there ... "American Staffordshire Terrier" is an "APBT" they will cuss you out! Learning curve thing seemed pretty obvious to me ..uh ... it's the same dog??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It is fascinating how many threads on this forum talk about pit bulls. I have read more about them here than I ever have anywhere else. Why are we so obsessed with another breed?


No breed in the history of mankind has mauled and / or killed people, pets, and other animals in the unprecedented numbers of Pit Bulls. 

No breed in the history of mankind has ever needed humane organizations, shelters, lobbies, etc., to do damage control for a breed's reputation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Are you saying ... the UKC no longer "dual registers" the "APBT and The American Staffordshire Terrier as the same breed???
> 
> Because I know ... that if you insulate to someone that there ... "American Staffordshire Terrier" is an "APBT" they will cuss you out! Learning curve thing seemed pretty obvious to me ..uh ... it's the same dog??


Not sure of what year, but I would say within the last 2-3 years.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No breed in the history of mankind has mauled and / or killed people, pets, and other animals in the unprecedented numbers of Pit Bulls.
> 
> No breed in the history of mankind has ever needed humane organizations, shelters, lobbies, etc., to do damage control for a breed's reputation.


I understand warning people about them. I don't understand why we need to talk about them as PP or IPO dogs. Is that the purpose of this forum? I've started skipping over any thread with Pits in the title.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I understand warning people about them. I don't understand why we need to talk about them as PP or IPO dogs. Is that the purpose of this forum? I've started skipping over any thread with Pits in the title.


I can't argue that point. The original question probably would be best served by people most familiar with the breed on a forum such as this:

Game Dog Forum


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I understand warning people about them. I don't understand why we need to talk about them as PP or IPO dogs. Is that the purpose of this forum? I've started skipping over any thread with Pits in the title.


Because I'm curious about it and people here have had many breeds and probably know the answer.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I understand warning people about them. I don't understand why we need to talk about them as PP or IPO dogs. Is that the purpose of this forum? I've started skipping over any thread with Pits in the title.


 I know absolutely nothing about the breed. Except that they are unpredictable and aggressive to the point of killing whatever they get a hold of while in a worked up state. And it seems that a certain class of people have made the pit their mascot dog. Sometimes it is interesting to gain a little knowledge on a breed that seems to be so misunderstood. By guys like me.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I tried starting my guy in protection work. He did great with the prey type work on a toy, wedge, pillow, tug etc. When we tried to get him on a sleeve, he wouldn't bite. You could see in his face he didn't think it was ok. Once the sleeve came off, he bit it just fine. Just not when someone was wearing it. Rather than force the issue, we did an OB trial. His official job in the house is bed warmer, spot saver and cuddler. I've worked a few more pitbulls. They definitely work different and wouldn't be my first choice. 

Here is my killer. You can see the thirst for blood in his eyes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> I know absolutely nothing about the breed. Except that they are unpredictable and aggressive to the point of killing whatever they get a hold of while in a worked up state. And it seems that a certain class of people have made the pit their mascot dog. Sometimes it is interesting to gain a little knowledge on a breed that seems to be so misunderstood. By guys like me.


You are not the one who misunderstands the breed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... an actual question?? So I have no choice but to answer! And my answer would be no!
> 
> But ... San Jose Ca ... no shortage of them! So I've not "owned" one but I faced one down! A typical 85 lb "APBT" busted out of a front door and came after my "puppy" with intend to do harm!!! Yeah ... that is not gonna happen! All that dog saw was my puppy not me?? I intervened and that slowed him down enough for hit owner to scoop him up! But yesss ... he meant business but so did I!
> 
> ...


Ok, so you do not have any actual real world experience with APBTs, especially of the game bred variety. And no, the dog that came up to you and Rocky was not a typical game bred pit. About 30lbs too heavy and it would not have been swayed by your antics. 

And what, exactly, are the qualifications of this so called "expert" of yours? I've been in the pit bull game a long time, can't remember his name ever coming up, and google isn't exactly bringing forth a wealth of information about who this guy is. Besides, that article was from nearly 20 years ago. A LOT has changed in the pit bull community since then. Even the dogs themselves have changed greatly. 

Cane Corsos, Boxers, and Band Dawgs - are not American Pit Bull Terriers. They do not have the same drives and temperaments. I've not owned any of them so I cannot attest to if they are capable of protection work and how one of those in drive would be controlled after a year of solid obedience...

I have, however been around pit bulls in drive, one that have had solid obedience. I had a boy who passed his CGC and was even doing some agility stuff. Well over a year's worth of obedience on him. We were playing with a spring pole and he got bit by a copper head. He was hanging 4 feet off the ground by the tug toy, his front foot swelling to the size of a grape fruit - and he WOULD. NOT. LET. GO. I had to use a break stick to get him off the tug and to the vet. This is typical of gamebred pits in drive. I know some people in the pit community that dog bite work with their dogs personally. Lots of problems with reliable outs. The dogs do well while it's all fun in games, but when the pressure gets put on or they've been a bit too revved up. Yep. Out comes the break stick. 

It all comes down to genetics. The traditional protection breeds come from stock that for centuries were selected for genetic obedience. Pit bulls have not. They are terriers. Genetically they are driven to work alone. Not all dog breeds are capable of reliable obedience when they are in drive - no matter how much work has gone into them. They say you should never let a greyhound or husky off leash in an unfenced area, because for the most part you cannot train reliable enough recalls as they are too independent and prey driven. Knowing what pit bulls are bred for, and having been around many, I truly question the ability to put a reliable enough OUT onto a protection trained pit bull in real world high stake situations. We aren't talking about sport here, but serious man work. 

And this is all on top of the fact that Pits in general just aren't they type of dog that would enjoy man work to begin with. A well tempered pit shouldn't possess the suspiscion of humans required for guarding. The ones that do are simply not good representatives of the breed. There has been A LOT of bad breeding of pits in the last few decades, if anyone were to come across a pit that is described as a "good guard dog" don't walk - RUN away as fast as you can. 99% chance it is a genetic cesspool with all the bad traits that idiots wanting the dog on the rap video have bred into the breed in the last 20 years. 

And actually, "goofy" is a term I have often used to describe my well tempered pits. 

It's less a matter of "Can a pit bull be a protection dog" versus "SHOULD a pit bull be a protection dog" 

Owning a pit bull comes with baggage. There is no denying that it and it's closest relatives are the breed that have killed and mauled the most people. Responsible pit bull owners have a duty to be a steward of the breed - and that means you NEVER allow your dog to harm another individual or domestic animal. Even if it is "warranted" in a PPD type situation. The breed doesn't need that type of publicity, you will be far more scrutinized and your dog will likely end up in hot water due to breed bias. I say that last part as a person who has dealt with the fall out after a dog of mine bit someone who assaulted me. 

So basically a pit bull as a protection dog: 

First, you have to find a dog with the right temperament, which considering it is against the breed standard - finding that in well bred pits is like finding a winning lottery ticket on the ground. You could find it in BYB pits, but they come along with a lot of other issues. 

Second, you would be working against the dog's genetics, with a breed that isn't all that crazy about being obedient in the first place

Third, You are working with a breed that has kept the "Kill" part of prey drive response intact - instead of something like a shepherd which is many many many generations from wanting to kill it's quarry (Farms wouldn't want a dog that killed the lambs). This is evident in the bite style of pit bulls which can cause serious damage.

Fourth, you would be doing a grave disservice to the breed, promoting human aggression and building up drive, while so many pit bull fanciers are embracing the zen of keeping their dogs out of drive, and doing everything in their power to be sure their dogs are always good ambassadors of the breed

Fifth, what good is a PPD that you can't take with you to many places because of the strict BSL in place??? 

Sixth, god forbid you were ever in a situation where your personal protection dog needed to act upon it's training. We live in a society where bad guys can sue and win against their victims. A society that already hates pit bulls. Your pit bull protecting you is going to be a legal and financial nightmare - more so than any other breed.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> I tried starting my guy in protection work. He did great with the prey type work on a toy, wedge, pillow, tug etc. When we tried to get him on a sleeve, he wouldn't bite. You could see in his face he didn't think it was ok. Once the sleeve came off, he bit it just fine. Just not when someone was wearing it. Rather than force the issue, we did an OB trial. His official job in the house is bed warmer, spot saver and cuddler. I've worked a few more pitbulls. They definitely work different and wouldn't be my first choice.
> 
> Here is my killer. You can see the thirst for blood in his eyes.


Cute dog. Someone once told me: They were bred to fight dogs, not humans. Kinda like what you described.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> So where does all of the pit bites come from. Do these dogs who would never bite their owners one day suddenly work themselves into prey drive and therefore attack. Seems to be a lot of kids or other dogs attacked. So it kind of makes sense.


Yes, basically. Pit bulls are on average very high threshold dogs. It can actually take quite a bit of training and drive building to get them fight... Then to complicate things, they are not the most expressive of dogs. It can take a keen eye that knows the breed to realize when they are about to be pushed over that threshold. 

When I was involved in rescue - I would hand pick only the highest threshold pits I could find - keeping the dogs out of drive is the key to responsible pet pit bull ownership. It's really all about managing and keeping them out of situations that will rev them up. 

Considering how many pits there are, we are pretty lucky most are high threshold dogs.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Cute dog. Someone once told me: They were bred to fight dogs, not humans. Kinda like what you described.



I only scanned the thread. I believe someone said that with this breed you need to basically crush drive. To be honest that's what we did with our guy. By four months old he was very animal aggressive. He took on an adult great dane at four months. He was neutered shortly after. My wife used to work with a rescue and fostered animals all the time. She couldn't have him being a jerk. So we were very hard on him. We had to explain that we would not tolerate that. Now he's actually one of the most stable dogs. He's good with dogs of all sizes and even cats. I use him with all my aggression clients because he won't react. He now always looks to us for guidance. I rather him like this. We still play a lot with wedges and pillows and do things to let him release, but always within our rules. He's a great pet!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cdwoodcox said:


> LuvShepherds said:
> 
> 
> > I understand warning people about them. I don't understand why we need to talk about them as PP or IPO dogs. Is that the purpose of this forum? I've started skipping over any thread with Pits in the title.
> ...


Your a guy??? Wow. That blows the picture in my head out of the water. Lol.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

As for Pits as a protection dog, well bred, appropriately bred and tempered Pits are not good protection dogs. 

Their drive comes from a very different place than breeds that excel at that type of work. 

That said I have seen a few IPO pits. Actual APBT. and while they did okay, it made me uncomfortable. Because it goes against the core of the breed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> I tried starting my guy in protection work. He did great with the prey type work on a toy, wedge, pillow, tug etc. When we tried to get him on a sleeve, he wouldn't bite. You could see in his face he didn't think it was ok. Once the sleeve came off, he bit it just fine. Just not when someone was wearing it. Rather than force the issue, we did an OB trial. His official job in the house is bed warmer, spot saver and cuddler. I've worked a few more pitbulls. They definitely work different and wouldn't be my first choice.
> 
> Here is my killer. You can see the thirst for blood in his eyes.


LOL ... I don't disagree! My goal with Gunter was "PPD" but I saw the "DA" thing first and change my focus to dealing with that. That was more important to be at the time as I did not what the deal was ... at the time. Did a lot of research before I get him ... but missed the D/A thing.  

Still ... the numbers don't lie?? So "clearly" the truly "clueless and ignorant" are doing something ... that those of us that are not "clueless and ignorant" ... don't do???


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> I tried starting my guy in protection work. He did great with the prey type work on a toy, wedge, pillow, tug etc. When we tried to get him on a sleeve, he wouldn't bite. You could see in his face he didn't think it was ok. Once the sleeve came off, he bit it just fine. Just not when someone was wearing it. Rather than force the issue, we did an OB trial. His official job in the house is bed warmer, spot saver and cuddler. I've worked a few more pitbulls. They definitely work different and wouldn't be my first choice.
> 
> Here is my killer. You can see the thirst for blood in his eyes.


Your boy is so handsome! Looks a lot like my Shiner, except for the little smudge on the head 



> His official job in the house is *bed warmer*, spot saver and cuddler.


What is it about these dogs that make them radiate 10x more body heat then any other breed!?! Great for this time of year. I miss my pitties.  Give your spot stealer - I mean saver - an extra cuddle for me.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes, basically. Pit bulls are on average very high threshold dogs. It can actually take quite a bit of training and drive building to get them fight... Then to complicate things, they are not the most expressive of dogs. It can take a keen eye that knows the breed to realize when they are about to be pushed over that threshold.
> 
> When I was involved in rescue - I would hand pick only the highest threshold pits I could find - keeping the dogs out of drive is the key to responsible pet pit bull ownership. It's really all about managing and keeping them out of situations that will rev them up.
> 
> Considering how many pits there are, we are pretty lucky most are high threshold dogs.


Idk. Most attacks I hear about are kids within the home of pits. Like one day the pit sees the kid running and playing and something kicks in and the dog snaps and attacks. Or the pit hears someone at the door loses his head and when they walk in the pit blindly attacks. I just don't see where anyone with a kid would take that chance.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Your a guy??? Wow. That blows the picture in my head out of the water. Lol.


Well then OK.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes, basically. Pit bulls are on average very high threshold dogs. It can actually take quite a bit of training and drive building to get them fight... Then to complicate things, they are not the most expressive of dogs. It can take a keen eye that knows the breed to realize when they are about to be pushed over that threshold.
> 
> When I was involved in rescue - I would hand pick only the highest threshold pits I could find - keeping the dogs out of drive is the key to responsible pet pit bull ownership. It's really all about managing and keeping them out of situations that will rev them up.
> 
> Considering how many pits there are, we are pretty lucky most are high threshold dogs.


Hmm, keeping them OUT of drive? Sort of the opposite of what people here do with GSDs :smile2:. I get my bros GSD into drive to do obedience. I don't really do protection work, sometimes have a friend snap a rag a bit. Drive is an important tool. So it's safe to say that GSDs are A LOT more clear headed dogs and it would be dangerous to train a pit in protection because they don't calm when needed. Probably why I rarely see them doing such work.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk. Most attacks I hear about are kids within the home of pits. Like one day the pit sees the kid running and playing and something kicks in and the dog snaps and attacks. Or the pit hears someone at the door loses his head and when they walk in the pit blindly attacks. I just don't see where anyone with a kid would take that chance.



Parents don't pay attention. Plain and simple. A couple years ago we were at a 4th of July BBQ. My guy was running free and hanging out with everyone. A friends little girl kept trying to play with my dog. He had enough and walked away. She kept following him and wouldn't leave him alone. He tried and tried to get away. I saw what was happening, so I just loaded him up in the truck so he could relax like he wanted to. The girls parents didn't even have a clue what was happening. That's just my two cents.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cdwoodcox said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> > Your a guy??? Wow. That blows the picture in my head out of the water. Lol.
> ...


Sorry. I rarely think about gender when on the board. Everyone is just people. Apparently everyone is just female unless I am told otherwise. 

The number of people that call me a guy on this board, I could buy a house.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

voodoolamb said:


> Your boy is so handsome! Looks a lot like my Shiner, except for the little smudge on the head
> 
> 
> 
> What is it about these dogs that make them radiate 10x more body heat then any other breed!?! Great for this time of year. I miss my pitties.  Give your spot stealer - I mean saver - an extra cuddle for me.



Thanks! We love him to death! I've always been a GSD guy. My wife is really a bully breed lover. I've converted her, but she swears we will always have a pittie in the house. They really are fantastic people dogs. 

He is always so stinking hot! Lol. And naturally he has to sleep in between my wife and I with his head on one of our pillows.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Apparently everyone is just female unless I am told otherwise.



I always assume most are female as well. Unless completely obvious it's a male.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Parents don't pay attention. Plain and simple. A couple years ago we were at a 4th of July BBQ. My guy was running free and hanging out with everyone. A friends little girl kept trying to play with my dog. He had enough and walked away. She kept following him and wouldn't leave him alone. He tried and tried to get away. I saw what was happening, so I just loaded him up in the truck so he could relax like he wanted to. The girls parents didn't even have a clue what was happening. That's just my two cents.


That's responsible ownership of a dog and irresponsible parenting. But it's not always a parents fault. Detroit mom testifies about pit bull attack that killed son, 4


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Hmm, keeping them OUT of drive? Sort of the opposite of what people here do with GSDs :smile2:. I get my bros GSD into drive to do obedience. I don't really do protection work, sometimes have a friend snap a rag a bit. Drive is an important tool. So it's safe to say that GSDs are A LOT more clear headed dogs and it would be dangerous to train a pit in protection because they don't calm when needed. Probably why I rarely see them doing such work.


Yes EXACTLY!

That's the biggest difference I personally have encountered with training my GSD and my pits. With the gsd It's all about building drive, putting him into drive, getting those flashy focused heels and quick downs. I use a lot of toy and play rewards. 

My pitties it was all about zen. A I did a lot of food rewards with them, it was good enough to get them interested in working, but kept them out of drive, and then alot of management. A few come to jesus type correction over paying too much attention to other dogs. But that was it. No excited pit bulls around other animals or people. I would play with them one on one with the spring pole or toy to let them work, but it was mostly about making them stay as Bruce Banner and never letting them hulk out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> That's responsible ownership of a dog and irresponsible parenting. But it's not always a parents fault. Detroit mom testifies about pit bull attack that killed son, 4


Doctors: Pit bull's tooth found in bone during surgery was cause - Tucson News Now


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Ok, so you do not have any actual real world experience with APBTs, especially of the game bred variety. And no, the dog that came up to you and Rocky was not a typical game bred pit. About 30lbs too heavy and it would not have been swayed by your antics.
> 
> And what, exactly, are the qualifications of this so called "expert" of yours? I've been in the pit bull game a long time, can't remember his name ever coming up, and google isn't exactly bringing forth a wealth of information about who this guy is. Besides, that article was from nearly 20 years ago. A LOT has changed in the pit bull community since then. Even the dogs themselves have changed greatly.
> 
> ...


Oh by and large I agree with "most of this." But sorry ... hands on experiance with APBT/Boxers and "American Band Dawgs aka Pit Derivatives" and no ... you not going to "out Goofy" an American Line Boxer!

From those who "breed" American Bawgs as working dogs ... they don't use "Boxers" (American Line I would assume) they can use whatever "breeds" they chose and there reason for no "Boxers" are ..." tiny feet" and the dogs are to "goofy!" "Clown Prince of the Dog World" ... "we" have that title (AL Boxers) and there fans are legion! 

As for rather or not a true "Game Breed Pit" can be a "PPD" well as they say ... "those who can do and those who can't" ... well I suppose they get a GSD or a Mal???  

As for the who "my expert is" ... I don't really know?? But apparently one of my "unique" skills is my ability to discern who "knows what they are talking about and who does not??" My guy there seems to know his stuff ... "good enough for me." If it's not good enough for others ... dig deeper! Not "directed at you" as I also seem to have an ability to unintentional offend ... so just to be clear ...not my entent.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Well, I think the conclusion is pits are not good as protection dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> I always assume most are female as well. Unless completely obvious it's a male.


Generally speaking ... I have no clue about gender?? Some member names (which I don't to notice ... my bad make gender obvious but some ... not so much??)

But ... whatever "issues are issues" regardless of gender.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> As for rather or not a true "Game Breed Pit" can be a "PPD" well as they say ... "those who can do and those who can't" ... well I suppose they get a GSD or a Mal???


You left out the big subgroup of those who try and fail. Leaving dangerous and unstable dogs in their wake.



> As for the who "my expert is" ... I don't really know?? But apparently one of my "unique" skills is my ability to discern who "knows what they are talking about and who does not??" My guy there seems to know his stuff ... "good enough for me." If it's not good enough for others ... dig deeper! Not "directed at you" as I also seem to have an ability to unintentional offend ... so just to be clear ...not my entent.


I pulled up some of my old pit bull pedigree resources to find out who this expert was... Thought he sounded familiar. The dude that was interviewed is the guy who stared the land of giants APBT bloodlines. They don't have a good reputation with true pit bull fanciers. He purposely bred for over sized dogs and non standard temperaments. It would be like interviewing the guy who created the king shepherd or the woman who created shilohs and claiming they are an expert on working line GSDs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> You left out the big subgroup of those who try and fail. Leaving dangerous and unstable dogs in their wake.
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled up some of my old pit bull pedigree resources to find out who this expert was... Thought he sounded familiar. The dude that was interviewed is the guy who stared the land of giants APBT bloodlines. They don't have a good reputation with true pit bull fanciers. He purposely bred for over sized dogs and non standard temperaments. It would be like interviewing the guy who created the king shepherd or the woman who created shilohs and claiming they are an expert on working line GSDs.


Huge discrepancy on who the pros and experts are, huh?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Seriously??? The "Pits gone wrong numbers" are not in dispute?? But that was not the question?? I would ask how many of the "Pits that do kill and main" could even walk on a loose leash?? I'm sure most of the bad "Pit" owners would say ... Oh gee ... I have no idea how this could have possibly happened?? Give me a freaking break! 

And ... sigh ... a "Game Breed PPD Pit" that an owner actually put "time money and effort into training" as a "PPD." Is not going to be out there "rampaging and snacking down on kids and strangers??" Dare I say that if anyone "here" actually encountered a "true" "PP Pit" on the street." Unless you happened to act like a tool with the owner ... "you would not know it was a "PPD!" That would be "my" standard in anycase! Can't say it's a situation I have ever faced (meeting one) ... as my "default" is to keep my distance from unknown "Dogs." I don't discriminate based on "Breed or Size."  

Just becasue ... "I" can't do it" ... does not mean a "PPD Game Breed Pit" can not be done! It just means a "given individual" is not that good. If your not good enough (a given individual) then just get a GSD or a Mal and call it a day. 

That said ... Game Breed or not a "Pitty" is to short for my taste. For a working "Am Band Dawg" prospect ... I know where to go. For that job I prefer a dog that says ... don't even think about it! But hey that's just me and well the owners of those dogs.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Huge discrepancy on who the pros and experts are, huh?


True that. The pit bull community is more divided than the shepherd community...

I'm sure that there are some who like the LOG bloodlines and the "new" pit bull. But then there are the the fanciers that have pushing for maximum size limits in the standards to combat that trend. 

Many do not believe such large sizes could have been obtained without out crossing to another breed. Usually the most cited out crosses being mastiff types known for HA. Some sketchy things have been said of LOG and similar breeders. 

Many of the legit dogmen preferred the more manageable 30lb - 45lb dog. Less feed. Easier to manage. Since fights went by weight class there wasn't a disadvantage to it either.

And I gotta say it... when they show the killer pits on the news... they aren't of the same "type" of those old school fighting dogs.

The rise of rule less street fighting, and the bigger is better beefed up dogs, and yes "breeders" selecting for guarding capabilities has led to some really really sketchy animals.

Still thinking of jumping ship and going with a bull terrier as my next "bully breed"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> You left out the big subgroup of those who try and fail. Leaving dangerous and unstable dogs in their wake.


 Aww I'll bow to yo on that one. Althought I don't see how that is to much different form pushing any unsound dog into "Dog" into doing something he s not suited to do??? 




voodoolamb said:


> I pulled up some of my old pit bull pedigree resources to find out who this expert was... Thought he sounded familiar. The dude that was interviewed is the guy who stared the land of giants APBT bloodlines. They don't have a good reputation with true pit bull fanciers. He purposely bred for over sized dogs and non standard temperaments. It would be like interviewing the guy who created the king shepherd or the woman who created shilohs and claiming they are an expert on working line GSDs.


 Oh ... that is ... a bit different. Madness reigns supreme in "Pitty world these days! But ... I'm good ... an "American Band Dawg" is not an over sized "APBT." Which is actually a "job description" but nobody cares. 

Breed specific legislation does not discriminate between a true "APBT" and "Pit Derivatives." A dog with "Pit" like characteristics is good enough for them. 90 lb "APBT" were common in San Jose ... although to be fair ... I can't say I weighed that one?? But he looked pretty freaking serious to me! Nor did I weight the one who's intention "Rocky" and I had a "disagreement" with on a walk! They all look like 90, 95ers when they are coming hard and fast at me! 

But ... hey ... I threw the "Am Band Dawgs" out there ... my bad. But they Am Band Dawgs do not look like OS "Pitts." But "breed" characteristics are breed characteristics. Gunther did not care much for other dogs ... that was not anything I did ... but something I took note of early on?? But my point is if one was considering a "Bully" as a PPD than one ought to know about Am Band Dawgs also. 

So I suppose ... I can't really understand how you can take a "game breed pit" and not get a "game breed derivative" thereof?? But ... I'm not a breeder. Gunther ... did not look like a Lab either but he'd lose his mind near water?? Some "traits" hold true. 

At anyrate "Bully Breeds" are "Bully Breeds" not a breed for the clueless, but you know number suggest that ... that who owns a lot of them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Many of the legit dogmen preferred the more manageable 30lb - 45lb dog. Less feed. Easier to manage. Since fights went by weight class there wasn't a disadvantage to it either.


Oh ... those guys! The little ones! I am aware of them ... I've never seen one in this country ... or have I??

I did work with one "Big headed Pitty" with the freakishly small stature comes to mind?? I'd not seen that "type" "Pity" before?? Something "new" perhaps a 90 lb size head on a 45 lb body??? No people issues but that dog broke my 4 minuets or leash SLL record!! Not a dog that was eager to get with the program! 

But yes to your point 35 to 45 lbs in England "still" maybe?? But I've not seen those dogs here ... or have I???


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... those guys! The little ones! I am aware of them ... I've never seen one in this country ... or have I??
> 
> I did work with one "Big headed Pitty" with the freakishly small stature comes to mind?? I'd not seen that "type" "Pity" before?? Something "new" perhaps a 90 lb size head on a 45 lb body??? No people issues but that dog broke my 4 minuets or leash SLL record!! Not a dog that was eager to get with the program!
> 
> But yes to your point 35 to 45 lbs in England "still" maybe?? But I've not seen those dogs here ... or have I???


They're still around, in this country. Cover of the summer issue of sporting dog journal:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Police departments don't make a habit out of trolling shelters for dogs to perform work venues. It is rare when it happens and should be presented as such. I don't know where these rumors get started. Although proven untrue, they seem to rear their ugly heads in every Pit Bull thread and that is when things get ugly.
> 
> Animal Farm Foundation, Inc., is a non profit organization whose mission statement is to secure equal treatment and opportunity for "pit bull" dogs. AFF has a program where they work with a K9 training organization where they sponsor the pulling of shelter dogs for single purpose K9 work, all training, all boarding, and subsequent handler training to place these cherry picked shelter dogs into service. Not all dogs selected by the training organization are Pit Bulls, most are not, as they find other breeds are more suitable for the work. Once trained, these shelter dogs are placed in financially challenged communities that normally would not be able to afford such a dog.
> 
> To present the truth as anything else, is misleading and falsely promotes the image of the breed as something it is not.


Times are changing and I can bet that you and everyone else will see more pit bulls doing police and even military work. It's cost effective, they are not difficult to train and they are loyal. Like it or not it's happening and as they prove themselves in the working world, departments will embrace it and run with it. 

Police Department Pulling Pit Bulls From Shelters To Train For Duty

Pit Bulls Are the New Breed of Police Dogs

Police Departments Turn To Rescue Pit Bulls For New K9 Units - Dogtime


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> I know absolutely nothing about the breed. Except that they are unpredictable and aggressive to the point of killing whatever they get a hold of while in a worked up state. And it seems that a certain class of people have made the pit their mascot dog. Sometimes it is interesting to gain a little knowledge on a breed that seems to be so misunderstood. By guys like me.


Seriously for the number of pit bulls there are, the number of bites/maulings is comparable to other breeds.. If you take the number of a specific breed(any breed that is on the list as biters)in this world and look at the number of bites, you will find that the breeds with a bigger population have more bites. That is just the way it is. Lower the population of the breed and bite numbers go down. It's not scientific, it's common sense and fact. 

For example... There are 100,000 Rottweilers with 50 bites and you have 500,000 pit bulls and 250 bites. The percentage is actually the same but looks higher because that bite number is so much higher. 

People see that pit bulls have bit/mauled let's say 10,000 people, but how many pit bull type dogs are there?

"Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records 
for dogs in the U.S., in some populations pit bulls are estimated to 
comprise some 30-40% of the dog population, making it a very popular 
breed. Considering that there were an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the 
U.S., and assuming that pit bulls make up 10% of that population, there 
would be approximately 5.3 million pit bulls in our society. 

It is estimated that 5,000,000 dogs per year are killed in shelters. 
Since in many places pit bulls make up 30-50% of the shelter population, 
and are less likely to be considered for placement than any other breed, 
guessing that 25% of those dogs killed is a reasonable estimate. 
Therefore, it can be assumed that perhaps 1.25 million pit bulls are killed 
per year.

For every pit bull who kills, there are hundreds of thousands that 
DON'T."


I'm no longer a fan of media because they can't get anything right, they write stories to cause arguments, report incomplete stories or just report what people want to hear. People that don't like the breed take these stories and run with them, but the fact is that other dogs bite and even kill people that we don't hear about because that is not what people want to hear. It doesn't improve their numbers so it's not newsworthy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Times are changing and I can bet that you and everyone else will see more pit bulls doing police and even military work. It's cost effective, they are not difficult to train and they are loyal. Like it or not it's happening and as they prove themselves in the working world, departments will embrace it and run with it.
> 
> Police Department Pulling Pit Bulls From Shelters To Train For Duty
> 
> ...


I don't know why you are arguing what I have explained in detail in my post. All of which can easily be substantiated with a little research if one chooses to stay off of Pit Bull biased websites.

*ALL* three of your links are of the same story, the AFF Pit Bull propaganda organization in conjunction with Universal K9 trying to unsuccessfully put a square peg into a round hole, presenting a FALSE illusion as if there were many such stories when they are ALL one and the same. 

If I posted three links to the SAME recent Pit Bull attack on the young 15 year old boy who had to have his leg amputated after a Pit Bull mauling while protecting his little brother, would that make Pit Bulls triply dangerous or would that just show how desperate I were to create an illusion that they are something that they aren't? Use some common sense, nobody is fooled by such a duplicitous tactic. It is insulting to insinuate that people on here are that gullible.

As already explained, Universal K9 was paid by AFF to push Pit Bulls as police dogs but Universal K9 primarily pulls other non Pit breeds as better suited to the task as they could not find enough suitable Pits to cherry pick despite the number of Pits in shelters.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

*See for yourself*

http://www.dogsbite.org/


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Seriously for the number of pit bulls there are, the number of bites/maulings is comparable to other breeds.. If you take the number of a specific breed(any breed that is on the list as biters)in this world and look at the number of bites, you will find that the breeds with a bigger population have more bites. That is just the way it is. Lower the population of the breed and bite numbers go down. It's not scientific, it's common sense and fact.
> 
> For example... There are 100,000 Rottweilers with 50 bites and you have 500,000 pit bulls and 250 bites. The percentage is actually the same but looks higher because that bite number is so much higher.
> 
> ...


The problem with Pits is extreme attacks and fatalities, not dog bites. You can't present a valid argument talking apples and oranges. In 2015, Pit Bulls accounted for 82% of dog bite related fatalities. Regardless of whose numbers you use for total Pits, that number is still disproportionate for their numbers

Times are changing and I don't know where you get your information but it is estimated that the number of Pits has decreased to only 5% of total dogs owned.

For every Pit that doesn't kill a human, there may be hundreds of thousands that don't, but for every Pit that doesn't maul or kill another animal, there are hundreds of thousands that do.

You can't possible be serious stating that if another breed of dog kills a child or person that a.) the media does not report it, b.) nobody cares and c.) that the all breed dangerous dog sites AND government organizations don't tally those numbers, to make such false claims is beyond comprehension.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The problem with Pits is extreme attacks and fatalities, not dog bites. You can't present a valid argument talking apples and oranges. In 2015, Pit Bulls accounted for 82% of dog bite related fatalities. Regardless of whose numbers you use for total Pits, that number is still disproportionate for their numbers
> 
> Times are changing and I don't know where you get your information but it is estimated that the number of Pits has decreased to only 5% of total dogs owned.
> 
> ...


You really think the number of pit bulls has gone down? That is part of the problem. The number of pit bulls has increased by quite a bit in the last 5 years. In most shelters they make up anywhere from 50-90% of what is there depending on where you live. Across the board in the Chicagoland area the average would be about 85% pit bulls. A lot of them die and more keep popping up. There are a good majority of people that go the shelter route and what do you think they adopt? You can't go anywhere without seeing numerous pit bulls--vet, dog events, training. If there are 10 dogs at these places and half are pit bulls, what does that tell you?

There are more pit bulls then any other breeds in most areas where there is a ban. Why? Because there are to many for the laws to be enforced. They would have to hire a full time staff just to enforce pit bull laws.

"There is 4.5 million registered pit bull and a least that many that are not"

This makes the number of pit bulls in the area of 10 million which is double what it used to be. 

You want to fight the fight? Educate the people on these dogs, breeding(because they are multiplying at an alarming rate) these dogs, how to take care of them(like not giving them a bone on a chain and then have a toddler approach them). These are the things that people need to know. 

As far as the media? I'm absolutely positive they don't report everything. You honestly don't think another breed hasn't mauled or bitten someone somewhere in the USA in let's say the last month? I haven't seen any news reports but I am sure if it's googled a small story might come up.


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