# does every dog owner have the right to breed? discussion



## sagelfn

I've seen some posts on here lately where people think just because they have two pure bred GSDs that they love they have the right to breed them...also even two mutts. So without attacking any individuals on whats already happened I'd like to hear both sides reasoning as to what dogs should be bred or not bred.


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## holland

You seem to have already stated your position in your post...Do I think that people should have a criteria when they breed dogs ...yes...but it is also really tiring to read posts from people who are telling other people what they should do...sometimes accidents happen or whatever I don't know


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## DJEtzel

It's my belief that even if they are going to spay/neuter everybody and keep them and can afford them, they still should not be bred until health tests are done. If they're keeping all puppies and don't care for them to be titled.. well..

If they want to sell, I think they should be titled and tested, and be good representations of the breed.


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## Cardinal Von Crossbones

For me, the big issue on this topic is the shelter situation. Every life is so dearly important, yet so many get killed every day as a result of human negligence and ignorance. One persons mistake isn't another person's problem, sure, but I can't help but feel that the first option should always be to rescue a dog that already exists, and needs a home to love it. 

That said, the working quality or temperment of these abandoned dogs is _sometimes_ not appropriate to what a dog owner would like to do, activity/sport-wise. This is a good reason to breed two _proven_ animals, in the seeking of a particular trait in a dog. Or, for the guarentee of lifelong support from a quality breeder. It's my opinin that offering these things to a buyer (or to family members, if the goal is to provide animals to people you love) are good reasons to breed. Sometimes things just happen, sure, but as dog owners, who are completely responsible for the health and happyness of our animals, and as responsible adults who have a love for dogs, of whatever breed, reducing the number who suffer and get killed, scared and sad, should be a constant concern, especially when deciding whether or not to bring more into the world.

I don't really want to argue, as I know this is something everyone will have their own passionate feelings about, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there.


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## lhczth

Does every dog owner have the right to breed? Yes, this is still a free country. Should they? No. I don't believe in forcing my beliefs in breeding on others (except my puppy owners), but I also do not support those whose breeding practices do not meet my own standards. I execute my rights by not buying what they are producing.


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## Dainerra

I don't want to get into "rights" but how about responsibilities? if the person does have a litter of puppies, I do think that they need to step up and insure that the pups are vetted, find good homes, offer support to the new owners and step in if the pup needs to be re-homed.

I know that a lot of people get into the "all my friends want one" mode and decide to breed. Then, when the pups are weaned, suddenly all those homes disappear. Too many times, the breeder then just dumps them off at the pound because they can't find homes for them and now they are eating too much and pooping too much and making too much noise. Too bad, you made the decision to have these pups, now it's your responsibility, not something to be dumped off on someone else..


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## sagelfn

holland said:


> You seem to have already stated your position in your post...Do I think that people should have a criteria when they breed dogs ...yes...but it is also really tiring to read posts from people who are telling other people what they should do...sometimes accidents happen or whatever I don't know


I don't think people are meaning to sound like that, I think they are trying educate people of the problems caused by irresponisble breeding


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## JakodaCD OA

what Lisa ^^^said


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## sagelfn

I was too distracted when I posted 1st. I meant to get thoughts on what should be bred and what shouldn't and is it right to do so just because you have a dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> For me, the big issue on this topic is the shelter situation. Every life is so dearly important, yet so many get killed every day as a result of human negligence and ignorance. One persons mistake isn't another person's problem, sure, but I can't help but feel that the first option should always be to rescue a dog that already exists, and needs a home to love it.


That is my main problem with everyone breeding more puppies just cause they can. My second problem is all the genetic issues in dogs, both mixed AND purebred. So without at least a basic interest in genetics and the backgrounds of both potential parent dogs........ the health and temperment of the puppies can be a big question that's not answered sometimes until years down the line.

If our shelters were empty and dogs no longer being killed by the thousands every day in the USA. And if people had at least a basic interest and concern about the genetic issues in their dogs and how to try to get rid of them in future puppies.......... then I'd be much more on board with people breeding their dogs.

I think it's the word 'responsible' that I find missing in many people who just want to breed their dogs. Responsible for health/temperment. Responsible for any puppies they ever breed for the entire lives of those dogs... to assure they don't end up in shelters (or even the puppies of these puppies, and so on and so on).


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## Kiowa

I had just composed a beautiful dissertation on this topic and then my wireless "burped" and I lost it. Oh well, it was too wordy anyway.

In short, I think that breeders that do it for the love of the breed, or the individual dog and are trying to get another just like the 1st, are fine. AS LONG as they have responsible, loving and COMMITTED homes lined up prior to breeding. The market is flooded with too many puppies and dogs from irresponsible breeders and this ruins the odds of a shelter dog getting a chance at a life and a loving home. Shelter dogs make the best pets if frivolous people could just get past the looks. My 1st shelter dog, Spud, is a basset-pitt mix and is the oddest little piglet of a dog you'll ever see. But he is the coolest dog on the planet. Kai is a close second, but no one would adopt her because 1) some moron thought she was part wolf (no she is not) and 2) she was so mis-behaved and uncontrollable. She is a beautiful dog and probably came from a puppy mill and was originally purchased for looks. 

Money does not a responsible dog owner make, so charging thousands for a pup does not guarantee a loving home for the animal. Money breeders ruin the chances of adoption for the dogs already in shelters and the puppies they sell to anyone willing to write them a check will likely become the next pretty pooch in the pound.


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## onyx'girl

Get rid of the millers, first, IMO. That is one business that I just don't understand~ why they are still allowed to treat the animals the way they do. 
Shelters wouldn't be so overwhelmed if the millers were extinct.


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## LaRen616

I feel it is wrong to breed your dogs just because you can.

It breaks my heart when I go to shelters and see all of those dogs wagging their tails when they see someone walk by. Wanting to save them all and knowing that you cant is one of the hardest things for me.

If it's an accident, well I hope they learn their lesson and find those puppies a good home. If it's not an accident then, :angryfire:


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## GSDElsa

I think the one thing people are forgetting is this is the internet and people are posting their decisions or potential decisions here. It is a forum in which people give advice the best way they know how. If the best way they know how is to 
vehemently discourage someone from breeding their unregisterd, hip dysplasic dog just to get one puppy, then so be it.

Once you pose a question or an opinion on a public internet forum you lose your right to protest about what will come after if the person doesn't think you're ethical, correct, just, saavy, etc.

These people who are anti-irresponsible breeders are not going through the newspaper and showing up on people's doorsteps lecturing them about their irresponsibility. They are responding to something via the www that people put out there at their own risk.


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## HeidiW

No Way! Not anyone who has a dog. Only to better our breed for the future, by someone who knows and has what it takes.


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## mjbgsd

Only if you(as in general) are responsible and do your homework when it comes to the amount of time, money, and energy it takes to breed a healthy litter. Breeders should be breeding to better a breed.


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## Vinnie

I agree with those who say yes everyone has the “right” but just because they have the right doesn’t mean they should. 

I have the right to do many things but that doesn’t mean I'm going to run out and do all those things.


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## sagelfn

*IMO* what should never be bred is..

a rescue/adopted dog, an unregistered dog, a dog that hasn't been health tested and more importantly had excellent results, a dog that has not yet been proven (working/showing etc..), a dog with poor temperment according to the breed standard, a dog that physically does not meet the breed standard

even if your dogs meet the above reasons I gave YOU should not breed them if..

you are not willing to keep the puppies if suitable homes cannot be found, you will not take puppies back even if they have severe health/temperment issues, you have not thoroughly screened future puppy buyers, you are not prepared for properly raising and caring for a new litter, you are not prepared for the risk to your own dogs during breeding and welping, you cannot financially provide for the care of the dogs and new litters should there be unforseen circumstances, you do not have knowledge of bloodlines and genetics...

drawing blanks now


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## weber1b

Like so many questions....just because you can does not mean you should. I have three rescues, one in particular who is clearly of AWFUL breeding. Lord knows what the circumstances were. It would be nice if every dog could get a good home, but until then, it would be nice to see fewer of them all being brought into the world.


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## Emoore

Do they have the right? Yes. Dogs are property and so long as they're receiving adequate food, shelter, medical care, etc you have the right to do what you want with them. Should it happen? Nope.


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## Jessiewessie99

I think people should only be breeding if they have dogs that are titled, certain qualities that they think may help the breed, or try to breed a certain trait out of the dog, I was talking to this one person who was trying to breed aggression out of German shepherds or his line of German Shepherds. I think people who have a good, verified, reasonable reason to breed their dogs. Titled, health tested, certified, qualified dogs should be bred.

People should not be breeding their dogs just because they want to and think their dogs will have cute babies. Molly & Tanner are beautiful and would probably have cute babies, but I don't have the time, money or the room to have more dogs in the house. Just because your dog if AKC registered, comes from a great bloodline shouldn't be the reason for breeding. I think thats why some responsible breeders make their customers or whatever u call them sign a contract or have papers that show the dog has been spayed/neutered. And also its good thing responsible breeders only breed at certain times of the year.

Its sad enough seeing such beautiful dogs of any breed in shelters, especially puppies in shelters. In otherwords: If you don't have the time, room, money, dedication, your dog isn't titled, certified, trained, or any other breed worthy reason, then don't breed.


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## robinhuerta

Unfortunately.....anyone & everyone, has the "right"....


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## cliffson1

I find it amusing that many of the breeders on this list that have a history of breeding very good dogs have the more moderate views on "requirements" for a breeder, and many people who have never bred a litter have the long laundry lists of what breeders should or shouldn't do. I have been in dogs a long time and the dogs with the best health and temperament in general I have seen were crossbreeds/mutts. How is this possible if these dogs and their parents and breeders don't carry all the badges, certifications, statue, and responsibility that ensures temperament and health. I go into any public forum and the mutts and crossbreeds make a seemless transition to being in public...I see many of "OUR" breed in public and I see unsureness, overaggression, unnaturalness, etc. Not always, but more often than the crossbreeds or mutts....And to add insult to injury, when I often see a well adjusted German Shepherd in public it often looks like the god forbid BYB variety. And then i correct my eyes and say noooo! that dog was not responsibly bred and I'm looking at a mirage because I have learned that only breeders with a check list 4 pages long should have the right to breed correct German Shepherds. I don't know whether to believe my eyes or the internet scholars....Its so confusing to me!


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## Dainerra

all I can hear is uncle Ben from the first Spiderman movie: With awesome power comes awesome responsibility.

I probably flubbed the line, but it's still a good idea.


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## Samba

How can puppy mills be eliminated?  I would like an easy answer to that!
Had a lady from the ASPCA speak at our kennel club meeting about upcoming legislation targeted at puppy mills. She was basically run out of the meeting. The breeders there are not commercial breeders, but see that much legislation is just not good at addressing the problem. It is difficult to get at some without penalizing others and who is to decide just what is responsible breeding? The definition is a huge conundrum in itself because there is not a simple "recipe" !

I sure would like to support more public exposure of the commercial industry. Education may reach more than regulation. Where we live there are not resources to enforce the regulations already in place anyway.


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## LaRen616

I agree, some of the best dogs out there are mutts.

*Wether their mutts or purebred, there are too many dogs in the world and not enough homes for them.*

Too many of them get put down everyday, it doesnt matter if they are great purebreds or great mutts, their just isn't a home for them all.

Mistakes happen and litters are born. Stray dogs have puppies, not much we can do about that. But the people that breed their mutts because they are cute dogs and would make cute puppies are in the wrong. 

Go look at your local animal shelter, if you can walk in there and not feel anything and not feel bad that you are producing more puppies that might end up in there. Then everything I say will not have an effect on you.

Now if you have GSD's with great pedigrees and you and others truely believe that your dog will bring great things to the breed then I dont see anything wrong with breeding them, as long as you find the best homes possible for them and you are willing to take them back incase their owner can no longer have them


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## onyx'girl

Samba said:


> How can puppy mills be eliminated? I would like an easy answer to that!
> Had a lady from the ASPCA speak at our kennel club meeting about upcoming legislation targeted at puppy mills. She was basically run out of the meeting. The breeders there are not commercial breeders, but see that much legislation is just not good at addressing the problem. It is difficult to get at some without penalizing others and who is to decide just what is responsible breeding? The definition is a huge conundrum in itself because there is not a simple "recipe" !
> 
> I sure would like to support more public exposure of the commercial industry. Education may reach more than regulation. Where we live there are not resources to enforce the regulations already in place anyway.


That is the problem, good breeders get penalized for what the millers are doing.
I wish there was an answer. 
You are right, about regulations, more isn't better. The next town over is doing away with both of their AC's because they have no funding, so cutting this along with the local community college LE K9 school. 

Sorry off topic.


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## GSDElsa

Samba said:


> How can puppy mills be eliminated? I would like an easy answer to that!
> quote]
> 
> The responsibility to eliminate puppy mills lays soley on the cosumer. Simply supply and demand. If they don't make money, there would be no puppy mills.


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## LARHAGE

cliffson1 said:


> I find it amusing that many of the breeders on this list that have a history of breeding very good dogs have the more moderate views on "requirements" for a breeder, and many people who have never bred a litter have the long laundry lists of what breeders should or shouldn't do. I have been in dogs a long time and the dogs with the best health and temperament in general I have seen were crossbreeds/mutts. How is this possible if these dogs and their parents and breeders don't carry all the badges, certifications, statue, and responsibility that ensures temperament and health. I go into any public forum and the mutts and crossbreeds make a seemless transition to being in public...I see many of "OUR" breed in public and I see unsureness, overaggression, unnaturalness, etc. Not always, but more often than the crossbreeds or mutts....And to add insult to injury, when I often see a well adjusted German Shepherd in public it often looks like the god forbid BYB variety. And then i correct my eyes and say noooo! that dog was not responsibly bred and I'm looking at a mirage because I have learned that only breeders with a check list 4 pages long should have the right to breed correct German Shepherds. I don't know whether to believe my eyes or the internet scholars....Its so confusing to me!


 
I really have to agree with you, if you make dog breeding ( or any species) an elitist attitude with nothing but a plethora of requirements, than you create a situation where dogs become out of reach to the general population, than you create a closed gene pool and more, not less health problems evolve. I personally believe while ideally you would have breeders who generally LOVE the breed and their criteria is to enhance the breed by producing dogs with beauty, brains and functionality, the reality is this will not happen. I personally have purchased 2 German Shepherds from top notch kennels that do all of the above, I also have in the past purchased Germans Shepherds that would be considered BYB puppies, and I had and have not had any problems with them, the people producing them had dogs they loved, with top bloodlines who accompanied them to horse shows or were real working ranch type dogs. I plan to show and title my young male, and yes, I do look forward to breeding him some day down the road. The reality is this breed is more likely to be purchased as a family companion than a working/show dog, and those are the dogs that are seen more often than not by the public, these dogs will represent the breed more than the show dogs, so their place in society is no less important than the exspensive show dogs, in fact it could be argued it is even more. The fact a dog is from a BYB does not automatically make them a poor specimen, the Shepherds I bought from seeing their parents at horse shows demomnstrated great temperament, intelligence and quality, just in a different venue.

I also breed Arabian Horses, that is a breed thats history is one of pedigrees and mares so cherished they were allowed to live in the tents with their people, 2 of the greatest Stallions the breed has ever known were both produced from backyard breeders, with nothing more than a mare and a dream, Kemosabi was born in an alley in Whittier, California, and Bey Shah was bred by pure accident when a trailer his mother was in broke down, they stayed at a well known breeder in California for the night, the great Varian Arabians, and bred their humble little mare to one of the stallions, creating this fantastic stallion. These two genetic masterpieces would never have been created if so many rules or hurdles would have been in place, or being looked down on because of perceived inferior pedigrees.


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## sagelfn

A German Shepherd is NOT supposed to be a lap dog. IMO the general public should not own a GSD because the general public is well not very smart. They are the people we all complain about on here "dog on flexi wearing prong collar" "dog running loose" "dog tied to tree" the shelter/rescue population is the result of the general poplulation.


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## selzer

I will go back and read through, but first give my gut reaction.

Anyone who owns a dog should have the right to breed the dog, unless that person purchased or obtained the dog with the understanding that it would not be used for breeding. 

What dogs should be bred? 

Well, across the board, it is hard to just say all purebred dogs that have no disqualifying faults, no major genetic health concerns, have proven themselves in some field that they were originally bred for, and have owners who are responsible about keeping them and their litter and placing them. 

What if, you have a farmer who uses dogs to manage his cattle, sheep and hogs. In the process, he breeds those dogs that do this work the best in hopes of getting another dog or two that can carry on. He has found that a mixture of dogs does the job better than any particular breed he has owned over the years. He has no trouble placing the pups he chooses not to keep. Should he breed his working dogs to create more working dogs to mange his farm?

What about the person who is using police dogs and mixing sheps and malinois or dutch shepherds and selling them to police departments? Is that a good reason to breed a mix? Do police departments really buy these mixes? (I know of someone who claims to be doing this, but I am not giving my opinion at this point.)

I think the guy breeding dogs to work his farm with is ok. His chances of getting a dog he can use for his situation is higher out of working dogs he has been breeding than trying to get one from a shelter or out of some reputable breeder. 

Except for maybe a handful of highly individual situations, I think that mixed breed dogs should not be bred. And unless the people involved are willing and able to put a lot of work into their purebred dogs, are willing to stick to a standard that they determine for breeding, that includes health, temperament, structure, etc., than most purebred dogs should not be bred either. And anyone who breeds a litter should feel responsible for the puppies that they bred, that they get good homes, and are willing to take them back if it does not work out.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Except for maybe a handful of highly individual situations, I think that mixed breed dogs should not be bred. And unless the people involved are willing and able to put a lot of work into their purebred dogs, are willing to stick to a standard that they determine for breeding, that includes health, temperament, structure, etc., than most purebred dogs should not be bred either. And anyone who breeds a litter should feel responsible for the puppies that they bred, that they get good homes, and are willing to take them back if it does not work out.


Well said! NO ONE should be breeding unless they can do it responsibly for the puppies they want, for the lifetimes of these pups (and their pups and their pups and their pups...)


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## selzer

How do we get rid of the millers?

Well, first we have to agree what a puppy mill is. 

Some people believe that anyone who is not A1-perfect and is selling puppies is a puppy mill. That includes hobbyists, BYBs, oops litters, people breeding for sport rather than show, or people breeding for show and not sport also. There is no concrete definition of puppy mill. 

I see a puppy mill as a n establishment that has maybe fifty, maybe a hundred, several hundred or a thousand or more dogs. They are kept ONLY for breeding litters, conditions are awful, space is restricted, grooming and vet care inadequate, puppies are sold to pet stores and over the internet. Usually many different breeds. 

Breeders do not want more legislation, but we DO want them to enforce the laws that these people are already breaking, such as cruelty and neglect. 

Actually, if you want to shut down the mills, you could make a huge step in that direction by making it illegal to sell puppies in pet stores, and making it illegal to ship puppies to buyers. If buyers were required to pick their puppy up from the breeder, these places would close. 

Some people would buy their dog there anyway, some bleeding heart people would go in and buy puppies to get them out of there perpetuating the cycle, but the vast majority would not be able to continue if the market was limited to people that come to their place to purchase the puppy.


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## Vinnie

selzer said:


> What if, you have a farmer who uses dogs to manage his cattle, sheep and hogs. In the process, he breeds those dogs that do this work the best in hopes of getting another dog or two that can carry on. He has found that a mixture of dogs does the job better than any particular breed he has owned over the years. He has no trouble placing the pups he chooses not to keep. Should he breed his working dogs to create more working dogs to mange his farm?


I love this example because it reminds me of the origins of the GSD that we all love so much. Not that anyone is saying we should all run out and do mix-breed breedings but back in the day this is what Max did. He did have a goal in mind when he did this and it was to create a excellent working dog. The GSD.


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## doggiedad

leave the breeding to the breeders.


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## selzer

The problem with leaving the breeding to the breeders is that they will retire and they will die and who will carry on? 

Also, some of the current breeders have tried and true methods that they have been using for decades. They still feed Purina foods, they are not busily trying to learn everything they can about the breed, because they have their ideas and opinions, etc. Other breeders that have been doing it for decades are continuing to be students of the breed. New breeders, who will make the effort to do it right, are needed in the breed, and they may be more open to things like getting working titles on the dogs, etc. 

In fact, if every responsible breeder out there, decided that too many dogs are dying in shelters and stopped breeding GSDs, then our breed would be ruined in a few short years. All that would be left would be the irresponsible breeders and breedings that are not chosen for what they can contribute, but out of convenience.

New blood is essential. We need to help the next generation to be responsible. This does not include embracing those who breed unregistered dogs or mixed dogs or let their pets get tied by accident. But it does mean helping people who are trying to get started to learn the best ways to go about it. Answering questions of people who are not trying to become the next generation of responsible breeders, is done to help the puppies that are on the way or are here to get a good start and find good homes.


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## sagelfn

I really wish the other side would post


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## Jessiewessie99

sagelfn said:


> I really wish the other side would post


what other side?? the anti-breeders?


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## chezza1981

i am absoulutly descusted by the way i av been treat here to who ever who started this why didnt u av the guts to cum and say it on my page bakers dozon its all aimed at me i would just like to say it is a real shame i came here for advise if you so much
love animals u would av gave it but no i really think u should help more people instead ov slatein them i really wish i could take all these statements and report them why are there all aimed at me so i should be intitled to i just cant belive how low sum people can be to be honest my animals are loved and cared for and so are all my 12 puppy so thank you to who posed question you make me feel sick il leave it there i am so so mad


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## chezza1981

sagelfn said:


> I really wish the other side would post


 i am the other side cause it was all aimed at me i am so discusted to be all this talk when i came here for advise and all i 
got was aload ov abbuse and im still recivin it i am absoultly descusted that this forum lets this happen to insent people who love and care and av lovin homes for dogs take a look at my pictures ov my dogs there not miss treat there are lovin animals and mine


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## sagelfn

chezza1981 said:


> i am absoulutly descusted by the way i av been treat here to who ever who started this why didnt u av the guts to cum and say it on my page bakers dozon its all aimed at me i would just like to say it is a real shame i came here for advise if you so much
> love animals u would av gave it but no i really think u should help more people instead ov slatein them i really wish i could take all these statements and report them why are there all aimed at me so i should be intitled to i just cant belive how low sum people can be to be honest my animals are loved and cared for and so are all my 12 puppy so thank you to who posed question you make me feel sick il leave it there i am so so mad


this topic has been discussed multiple times on this board but always in someone's thread where they are asking for help instead of wanting to talk about this so in order to keep your thread on topic and giving you the help you need I started this thread for everyone to have it out. Its not directed at you personally but a group. I did not offer you advice on your newborn litter because I have never raised a litter. I did offer you some links to threads about ensuring your puppies go to good homes and a few others. You also got some really fantastic advice from other people who DO have experience with litters.


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## sagelfn

chezza1981 said:


> i am the other side cause it was all aimed at me i am so discusted to be all this talk when i came here for advise and all i
> got was aload ov abbuse and im still recivin it i am absoultly descusted that this forum lets this happen to insent people who love and care and av lovin homes for dogs take a look at my pictures ov my dogs there not miss treat there are lovin animals and mine


you did not get abuse you got opinions on what you were doing that you didn't ask for. No one has once said that you don't love your animals. 

maybe you could read this thread and see what other people think and give your opinion on why you wanted to breed your dogs and what you think are good german shepherd qualities


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## sagelfn

Jessiewessie99 said:


> what other side?? the anti-breeders?


LOL i was referring to the people who were bybs or supportive of bybs


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## Jessiewessie99

sagelfn said:


> LOL i was referring to the people who were bybs or supportive of bybs


oh ok.lol People support BYBs?what the heck! crazies!


******* comments removed by Admin. Please, be nice.**


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## Dainerra

well, so far, it sounds like everyone here supports the fact that, yes, everyone (even BYBs) have the RIGHT to breed.

Any law that takes away that right would also severely hinder responsible breeders, so here is to hoping that doesn't happen. I mean, look at all the "anti-puppy mill" laws. The only people they really stop are the good "hobby" breeders who can't afford to keep up with the added expenses. Puppy mills just see it as a slight bump in the bottom line and continue with business as usual. 

BYBs are so random and untrackable (for the most parts) that they aren't effected/don't care about the laws. Again, any laws against them would only make things more difficult for the responsible breeders who follow the rules. The most effective thing against them is "animal limits" but again, innocent people are the main ones effected because irresponsible people just don't CARE or think that the rules don't apply to them.

The most effective way to stop BYB and puppy mills is education. Teach the public to expect more than someone who churns out puppies. Once people start speaking with their $$, the market will listen. Only then will things change.


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## GSDElsa

chezza1981 said:


> i am the other side cause it was all aimed at me i am so discusted to be all this talk when i came here for advise and all i
> got was aload ov abbuse and im still recivin it i am absoultly descusted that this forum lets this happen to insent people who love and care and av lovin homes for dogs take a look at my pictures ov my dogs there not miss treat there are lovin animals and mine


 
I hate to burst your bubble, but we get threads like this on an almost daily basis. So while you are "one of them" you are hardly the sole person the thread is about.


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## MaggieRoseLee

chezza1981 said:


> i am absoulutly descusted by the way i av been treat here to who ever who started this why didnt u av the guts to cum and say it on my page bakers dozon its all aimed at me i would just like to say it is a real shame i came here for advise if you so much
> love animals u would av gave it but no i really think u should help more people instead ov slatein them i really wish i could take all these statements and report them why are there all aimed at me so i should be intitled to i just cant belive how low sum people can be to be honest my animals are loved and cared for and so are all my 12 puppy so thank you to who posed question you make me feel sick il leave it there i am so so mad


Instead of getting mad and stomping off in a huff.

It would be nice if you would stay and read and learn. 

If you have no dogs being put down from overpopulation in your country, then that would take care of our main issue with BYB's. 

If you do your research before you breed and give health guarantees and/or at least track all your puppies (and their puppies and so on) knowing YOU are responsible for them being on earth....that would also take the wind out of many of our arguments.

Heck, all you need to do, is say WHY you have a responsible and thought out breeding program. Getting mad and leaving isn't proving you ARE a responsible breeder.


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## valreegrl

IMO, and I speak this from my own situation....it's the "accidents" that need to be addressed. You will always have BYB's. It's inevitable. Everyone has the "right" to breed whatever they choose.
But the "accidents" are caused by the one's who either DON'T spay/neuter, don't BELIEVE in it or are just too darn lazy to move forward with it. 

In our situation, a local man had 2 female WGSD and 1 male. None spayed/neutered. Both females were impregnated at the same time by the male and what resulted was 19 puppies. 
Unfortunately, they did not receive proper nutrition and what resulted was Timber. At 13 weeks he almost lost his leg to HOD. Was in a great deal of pain, on crate rest for 8 weeks and missed the most important time for socialization.
He then ended up at a "rescue" who casted his leg for no apparent reason and after we adopted him and found out about the HOD during vet check threw us to the wolves and demanded we never speak to them again. On top of that, never honored their neuter clause. Just imagine if we were not educated and decided that we should "breed" him! More puppies! 

With that said, you can see how things spiral out of control. 19 puppies ended up who knows where. And one with a (not to toot my own horn) good home but a horrendous start for a little guy.


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## valreegrl

LARHAGE said:


> I really have to agree with you, if you make dog breeding ( or any species) an elitist attitude with nothing but a plethora of requirements, than you create a situation where dogs become out of reach to the general population, than you create a closed gene pool and more, not less health problems evolve. I personally believe while ideally you would have breeders who generally LOVE the breed and their criteria is to enhance the breed by producing dogs with beauty, brains and functionality, the reality is this will not happen. I personally have purchased 2 German Shepherds from top notch kennels that do all of the above, I also have in the past purchased Germans Shepherds that would be considered BYB puppies, and I had and have not had any problems with them, the people producing them had dogs they loved, with top bloodlines who accompanied them to horse shows or were real working ranch type dogs. I plan to show and title my young male, and yes, I do look forward to breeding him some day down the road. The reality is this breed is more likely to be purchased as a family companion than a working/show dog, and those are the dogs that are seen more often than not by the public, these dogs will represent the breed more than the show dogs, so their place in society is no less important than the exspensive show dogs, in fact it could be argued it is even more. The fact a dog is from a BYB does not automatically make them a poor specimen, the Shepherds I bought from seeing their parents at horse shows demomnstrated great temperament, intelligence and quality, just in a different venue.
> 
> I also breed Arabian Horses, that is a breed thats history is one of pedigrees and mares so cherished they were allowed to live in the tents with their people, 2 of the greatest Stallions the breed has ever known were both produced from backyard breeders, with nothing more than a mare and a dream, Kemosabi was born in an alley in Whittier, California, and Bey Shah was bred by pure accident when a trailer his mother was in broke down, they stayed at a well known breeder in California for the night, the great Varian Arabians, and bred their humble little mare to one of the stallions, creating this fantastic stallion. These two genetic masterpieces would never have been created if so many rules or hurdles would have been in place, or being looked down on because of perceived inferior pedigrees.



The same can be said for horses in this economy. Unless you are breeding quality stock you have no sense breeding period. (Not you, but everyone in general) Take a look at any auction list in this country. Nice, well bred quality horses are going to KB for next to nothing. The demand just isn't there right now but the supply keeps climbing. 
If you truly want to enhance the breed, put some professional training on your horses until the economy picks up. At which point, your offspring will be worth more. Win win for everyone. 
Be picky with what you are putting out there. And take responsibility for what your produced.


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## Samba

For myself, who sees lots of large trucks full of puppies leaving the state who were intentionally bred... well, an oops in an otherwise well cared for situation is not terribly high on my list of concerns. I have known of good breeders who have had an oops. This is very different from the recurring litters that happen on the farm roads here from the myriad intact dogs running at large. That is another deal.


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## trish07

Personally, I say no.

You need to know the rules very well, look what happened with the GSD breed.....it cames every owners started to breed and the race started to have issues.

It should be regulated to avoid most health issues and overproduction. There is already a lot of shelter dogs without family...I don't thing everybody should be allowed to reproduce.


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## Dainerra

trish07 said:


> Personally, I say no.
> 
> You need to know the rules very well, look what happened with the GSD breed.....it cames every owners started to breed and the race started to have issues.
> 
> It should be regulated to avoid most health issues and overproduction. There is already a lot of shelter dogs without family...I don't thing everybody should be allowed to reproduce.


the only problem is, who gets to decide???

do the show line crowd get to decide? the working line folks? American or European lines? DDR? what about the "pet" crowd? do they get a say?

I think that, in the end, there is no way to control who does or does not get to breed their dog. Even if you went with rules like the SV has, people could still breed, the dogs would just be unregistered. That doesn't slow anyone down anymore as there are so many scam registries available. Or people who just don't care if the dog is registered or not, they just want a pet.
The only option would be a mandatory spay/neuter law on ALL dogs. of course, then there wouldn't be any more dogs after this generation.


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## trish07

Dainerra said:


> the only problem is, who gets to decide???
> 
> do the show line crowd get to decide? the working line folks? American or European lines? DDR? what about the "pet" crowd? do they get a say?
> 
> I think that, in the end, there is no way to control who does or does not get to breed their dog. Even if you went with rules like the SV has, people could still breed, the dogs would just be unregistered. That doesn't slow anyone down anymore as there are so many scam registries available. Or people who just don't care if the dog is registered or not, they just want a pet.
> The only option would be a mandatory spay/neuter law on ALL dogs. of course, then there wouldn't be any more dogs after this generation.


 I have to agree!


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## codmaster

chezza1981 said:


> i am absoulutly descusted by the way i av been treat here to who ever who started this why didnt u av the guts to cum and say it on my page bakers dozon its all aimed at me i would just like to say it is a real shame i came here for advise if you so much
> love animals u would av gave it but no i really think u should help more people instead ov slatein them i really wish i could take all these statements and report them why are there all aimed at me so i should be intitled to i just cant belive how low sum people can be to be honest my animals are loved and cared for and so are all my 12 puppy so thank you to who posed question you make me feel sick il leave it there i am so so mad


Your post would be a lot easier to understand if you maybe could use some punctuation.


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## selzer

Oopse litters ARE a problem, but it is not due to a lack of sterilization, it is due to a lack of vigilence and the attitude that "accidents happen." If the people who irresponsibly allowed their dogs to breed, learn how to and whelp and raise the litter properly and find them good homes and stand behind them if any needs good homes, and after the litter is gone, they get their dog or bitch sterilized or improve their management technique, then they will do no more harm and they have learned from their mistake. 

Unfortunately, many reported oopse litters come from people who know better, but thought that having a litter would be ok. Then when they have one coming, they panic. They do not come and say, I let my boy and girl get together and now I have a litter coming and I do not have a clue about what to do. they say that their neighbor did this, or their husband did that and oh well, accidents happen. And for some reason, people will crucify the one and allow that the other is inevitible. 

They are both inevitable. But I would rather hear that someone decided to let it happen than could not manage to keep the dog and bitch separate. If you cannot keep a dog and bitch responsibly, you have no business owing intact animals. And the general feeling that people cannot manage intact animals, fuels mandatory spay neuter legislation everywhere. 

People who have wonderful pets and want just one litter are a part of the problem.

People who have a bitch and want to have some litters out of her to get their money back out of her are part of the problem.

A percentage of all of these amatures, people breeding who have not educated themselves and evaluated and tested their breeding stock, some of whom have not even thought it through, where the pups will be born, how they will contain them, how they will keep them warm, how they will sell them, etc., a percentage of these become overwhelmed and drop bitch and pups or a pregnant bitch off in a shelter. And this hurts us all, as well as compramises the bitch's and pups' health. Some of these dogs do not make it out of the shelter. 

Puppy mills are the other major problem. I do not know for sure, but I almost think that shelters are not as much affected directly by them. The reason is that people generally pay a lot more money for them. People tend to drop off a dog they bought for free or a dog that cost them one or two hundred a lot quicker than a dog that they payed over a thousand dollars for. And pet stores are charging an arm and a leg for these dogs that have been raised in grusome condition, and whose sire and dam are literally doomed. 

Education is the only thing people can do about the BYBs, oopse litters, pet owners breeding their pets. No regulations will really touch them, because they will not bother with them. No one is even enforcing leash laws or licensing laws, no one is going to bother with someone breeding their pets and having a litter of puppies. Legislation will only hurt the decent small time breeders who are already spending a small fortune to adequately house, feed, show, train, title, vet and screen their dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99

I am just curious, how much does it normally cost to spay/neuter?Does it depend on where you go?My friend's reason for not spaying her 2 dogs is because it costs to much.-_-. I have had all my dogs fixed and my parents have never had a issue on paying that cost. My friend has Minpin/JRT mixes(they are sisters) I have told her many times and explained why she should she get them fixed.I gave up.Personally, I think she is lazy, and is using the exuse that it costs too much, and complains it will hurt the dog.

Yet she complains when her dogs have her periods and hates it when they lick their you know what.She doesn't own dogs for show, or will she be breeding. Just there are alot of stray dogs and someone can easily steal her dogs(they are small) and use them for who knows what.I stopped trying to convince her get her dogs spayed.

The shelter I work offers financial assistance for it.Like what is the average cost for spay/neuter?


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## selzer

I don't know. I got Arwen spayed during a surgery, so that really did not count. Years ago, I rescued a pup from my neighbor who was letting them get slaughtered in the road, and I neutered him. He was a young pup, and around here they go by weight. Which is a good reason to get them fixed younger.


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## onyx'girl

I would say if you can't afford to vet your dog, you really shouldn't have one. Most communities have snip clinics for the sake of not adding to the shelters. 
What if an emergency came up, would the person not get proper medical attention because of the cost? 
My SIL hasn't vetted her two chi's because she can't afford it. One of her dogs got stepped on and broke a leg. Now she has to come up with $$ to fix it. Of course she did, and it was over $500+. Dogs still aren't up to date on rabies...and she can't afford spays on both of them. 
This is where reputable breeders come in, you buy from one and hopefully your mindset is taking the best care possible for the progeny of the breeders stock. Contracts are put in place for a reason.
Not saying a rescue or BYB won't be treated well, but when I know what goes into producing awesome dogs, I want to do justice to the breeder and what they are producing. 
Many people go to the BYB's because they can pay less for the dog and then the vetting/treatment may suffer because they are still looking to save a buck.


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## Jessiewessie99

Thank god the shelter I work at spays and neuter all the animals that come in, well unless they are already spaye.d and neutered


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## JakodaCD OA

I hope your friend won't have to find out the hard way what it will cost to take care of a female who has 10 puppies( much more than the initial spay.

There are lots of low cost spay/neuter clinics around just to have to dig around for one. 

The price for spay/neuter thru a vet can vary, I've seen posts on this board from one extreme to the other.


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## LaRen616

My friend has a Yorkie and she called 2 places to see how much it would cost to get her dog neutered. (it's a 8 pound dog)

One place said $400 

The other place said $250

For an 8 pound dog!!!!

I'm scared to see how much it would cost for my 80 pound dog! :crazy:


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## JakodaCD OA

that's ridiculous! I paid 125$ for my 70lb dog !!


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## valreegrl

LaRen616 said:


> My friend has a Yorkie and she called 2 places to see how much it would cost to get her dog neutered. (it's a 8 pound dog)
> 
> One place said $400
> 
> The other place said $250
> 
> For an 8 pound dog!!!!
> 
> I'm scared to see how much it would cost for my 80 pound dog! :crazy:


There are lots of spay/neuter options out there that offer low cost. 
Here is one for example: Friends of Animals | Spay and Neuter Certificate Information

As much as I would like to think it is the cost that is stopping most people, I really think it boils down to laziness. 
With just a little bit of research, you can certainly find a way. 
Just another excuse.


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## LaRen616

I'm not giving an excuse

My dog is not neutered because I want to wait until he is phsyically mature before I get him altered. So when he is between 18 months and 2 years old I will get him neutered then. So he will get neutered no matter how much it costs.

I know that in Illinois or at least around the Waukegan/Beach Park/Winthrop Harbor area you can fill out a paper with the Lake County Health Department and get your dog a free spay/neuter but you can only make a certain amount of money a year to do that. If they feel that you make enough money to get your dog altered by yourself they will refuse you.


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## Dainerra

When I had Rayden done, it was through the low cost clinic. Cost me $25, but that was several years ago. Now, they no longer give certificates for male dogs, only females. The program is only active the first few months of the year as well, so by spring they are out of money.

When I just got Freya spayed, it was $100, $130 with the cone, pain meds, etc etc. but, as long as you purchased/use the cone, all follow-ups are free if they DO tear their stitches (which freya of course did!) so worth the $10 for the cone!

I called around and some clinics offer a "special" a few times a year. neuter for a 75lb dog $80. so it doesn't hurt to shop around! 

In WV, the local pound (mason county) takes all the dogs to Huntington once a month for low cost spay/neuter. Anyone in the community can bring down their dog on a certain day and pick it up that afternoon. I think it was $15 for cats, $25 for dogs, but I don't remember. It's been almost 5 years since we lived there. It wasn't really well advertised in the community, but the van was still filled every month. When you got a dog/cat from the pound, neuter was included and was done by a local vet.


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## GunnersMom

Dainerra said:


> The most effective way to stop BYB and puppy mills is education. Teach the public to expect more than someone who churns out puppies. Once people start speaking with their $$, the market will listen. Only then will things change.


Intellectually and rationally I agree 100%. But I have to play devil's advocate here for a minute. 

Pick up the newspaper on any given day and there's at least a whole page of BYB puppies being advertised. These pups are already here (through no fault of their own.) Do they not deserve a loving home every bit as much as a pup who comes from a top-notch, reputable breeder? Do we sacrifice those pups, wait until they end up in a shelter or rescue to give them a home... or do those of us who know what we're getting into go ahead and take them and give them a loving home?
Emotionally, it's a tougher issue for me. Both my boys came from BYB. Gunner's "breeder" should never have bred her female in a million years, but she at least seemed to care about the puppies, asked a ton of questions and wanted them to go to good, responsible and experienced homes. 
Riley's "breeder" was absolutely horrible. She was the 'pick out the pup you want and sign the check' type. No health clearances - nothing. Mom and I talked, we knew we were getting into potential temperament and health problems. We asked each other, do we "do the right thing", walk away and not give these people any money? Or do we save one of these pups? We knew what we were getting. Could we have walked away, knowing that he'd probably go to someone who _didn't_ know and wasn't prepared to accept and deal with the problems that would likely come up? We couldn't do it. 

So I know that the only solution is to sacrifice the few, now, to save countless thousands later. But emotionally, how do you do that?


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## Dainerra

GunnersMom said:


> So I know that the only solution is to sacrifice the few, now, to save countless thousands later. But emotionally, how do you do that?



It is very hard to do. We have those ads in the paper all the time. But, if you check back the next week, the same litter is there, this time for less money. The next week they are even cheaper. The next, even cheaper.

It can be hard to walk away, but thinking rationally, there is no way to save them all. You pick up one pup, but what about the other 2 that are still there? Either way, you are making decisions and some of those pups are going to go to "bad" homes. But, by saving even 1, you are giving the people reason to breed another litter. So, instead of 5 pups going to bad homes, there are 10. 
It's not a matter of knowing "what you are in for". It's a matter of knowing that you are sitting up a repeat of the same situation.

It can be hard, I handle it by NOT going to see pups from the paper. I know that I would want to save them, but doing that only makes the situation worse. So, I focus on things that I CAN do to help.

Also, look at it this way. cute fluffy puppies are easy to find homes for. What about when those same pups are a bit older and dumped in the pound? There is no waiting line of people to snatch them up; all they have to hope for is a rescue that will find them a good home. Otherwise, it's the needle/gas chamber for them. 

So, you might save one pup by buying from the guy in the paper, but you are sentencing who knows how many more to certain death.


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## Dainerra

BYB has a litter of 6 pups. no vet care for mom, cheap Wal-Mart dog food, so the overhead is very low. It isn't costing him any extra to have 7 dogs than it does 1. Sure the bitch may eat a bit more, but not enough to cut into the bottom line. After all, Old Roy is $15 a bag and table scraps are free!
You buy a pup from him at $250. That is pure profit for him. He doesn't care if he doesn't sell the other 5, he'll just dump them at the pound. Next heat, he breeds the dog again, this time he sells 2 pups. Still 100% profit for him.

So, even 1 pup sold proves (to the BYB) that there is money to be made.


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## valreegrl

LaRen616 said:


> I'm not giving an excuse
> 
> My dog is not neutered because I want to wait until he is phsyically mature before I get him altered. So when he is between 18 months and 2 years old I will get him neutered then. So he will get neutered no matter how much it costs.
> 
> I know that in Illinois or at least around the Waukegan/Beach Park/Winthrop Harbor area you can fill out a paper with the Lake County Health Department and get your dog a free spay/neuter but you can only make a certain amount of money a year to do that. If they feel that you make enough money to get your dog altered by yourself they will refuse you.


Sorry. Wasn't talking about you in particular. Just the situation in general. Should have made that clear.

I agree with you about your timing. We are doing the same thing. However, we are educated in the fact that we must be proactive in not allowing anything to happen between now and then. 
Unfortunately, that is not the norm.


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## Samba

As far as people being more likely to keep an "expensive" purchase price pet. I just haven't seen it. 'When they are ready to relinquish, the money is already gone so they count that as a loss. The perceived "aggravation" is still there in their home every day and they will indeed dump, even to a kill shelter.


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## GunnersMom

Dainerra said:


> It can be hard to walk away, but thinking rationally, there is no way to save them all. You pick up one pup, but what about the other 2 that are still there? Either way, you are making decisions and some of those pups are going to go to "bad" homes. But, by saving even 1, you are giving the people reason to breed another litter. So, instead of 5 pups going to bad homes, there are 10.
> It's not a matter of knowing "what you are in for". It's a matter of knowing that you are sitting up a repeat of the same situation.
> 
> It can be hard, I handle it by NOT going to see pups from the paper. I know that I would want to save them, but doing that only makes the situation worse. So, I focus on things that I CAN do to help.


 
Oh, I know. And you're absolutely right. You can't save them all. My argument has always been, "No, but I can save _this_ one." Flawed logic, I know.
And no, there will be no more newspaper puppies for us. I wouldn't trade my guys for the world, but it's too hard wondering what became of the others and whether we contributed to another whole litter of pups being brought into the world. 



Dainerra said:


> Also, look at it this way. cute fluffy puppies are easy to find homes for. What about when those same pups are a bit older and dumped in the pound? There is no waiting line of people to snatch them up; all they have to hope for is a rescue that will find them a good home. Otherwise, it's the needle/gas chamber for them.


That's what worries me. Not a day goes by that I don't wonder what became of my boys' littermates and/or all the pups from subsequent litters. 
I don't worry about subsequent litters from Gunner's breeder, so much. She wanted a pup from her female and didn't plan to breed her again. Or at least that's what she said and I do believe she was being honest. I wonder what happened to his littermates, though. Do they have EPI, too? Were the owners willing to treat it? Are they as high-strung and anxious as Gunner is? Were they able to cope with that? 
I can't even stand to think of where Riley's littermates might be today. (Our little Prince of Darkness.) If his littermates turned out anything like he did, I can only pray that their owners have a sense of humor and a lot of patience. And I KNOW his so-called breeder more than likely continues to turn out puppies. They're clearly a moneymaker for her. I've been tempted to check the paper and see if any more ads from her show up, but I won't let myself do it.

It's just a terrible situation, all the way around. I know the only solution is to cut off the incentive for these lousy BYB (and mills.) It just breaks your heart to think about what happens to the pups who are already here.


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## Bridget

I agree with what most people said that only responsible persons _should _breed, which isn't the same thing as talking about _rights_. However, I do have a story that might be relevant here. My husband has a lovely labrador and while I won't go into all of his glories, let me just say that he truly embodies the qualities all labradors ought to have (just to show I'm not just saying this because we love him, we did have Heidi spayed, as she doesn't). We have always had an interest in hobby breeding and had every intention of getting the health clearances done, etc. I posted on a lab forum asking for advice from folks who had experience. Well I got thrashed big-time; the general attitude was "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST BREEDING! LEAVE BREEDING TO THE BREEDERS (I wonder how they became breeders, were they simply born that way?) So anyway, I learned my lesson well and I didn't ask for advice or even bring up breeding anymore. Doesn't mean we won't do it, just that we won't benefit from any expertise those people may have. 

I have found the GSD people, at least on this forum, much more open minded and helpful, so I pick up any tidbits of information here and file it away for the future.


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## sagelfn

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I am just curious, how much does it normally cost to spay/neuter?


at my vet for a 50-100lb dog it was $190, that included the surgery, meds, overnight care, nail trim, ear cleaning, and full exam. Free post surgery visits as well ( I took him in twice just to make sure it was healing up well). They also offer discounted rates in the state of IL based on your income or payment plans. 

I also had a blood panel done for $35 and the e-collar was $15...the inflatable e-collar I bought later was $30. Plus 6 months of frontline and 7 of heartguard :crazy: at least you only have to pay for a speuter once..preventatives cost about the same amount


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## selzer

My vet is offering low-cost speuters. There was an artical in the paper, in the past, they did spay/neuter without pre-exam bloodwork testing, and other add ons. They are offering to go a step backwards in order to spay and neuter dogs for people who might otherwise not get it done because of the cost. 

I am not a fan of low-cost speuters though. Many people do not realize their dog has VonWilbrand's disease until they are on the table, and then it is very dangerous. I would rather pay the extra money and be safer, if I were to spay/neuter.

If you do not have the money to care for a pet, then just say no to getting a pet at this point. If you must, get one from a shelter that already has its shots and is neutered. The dog will at least be better off with you than euthanized for room. 

I think people who buy a dog for more money are less likely to look at it as a throw away commodity. For one thing, this dog cost 1200 dollars, it lives in the house, someone might steal it, etc, etc. Dogs that are free may be left out back on a chain with a dog house. 

At least I have seen those attitudes.


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## Dainerra

I see a bit of the opposite. The people I've talked to who paid $$ for a dog (even the ones who consider paying more than $20 to be outrageous) expect the dog to come "fully loaded"
they don't expect to have to work to housebreak. they expect the dog not to tear things up. they expect the dog not to jump on people or track dirt in the house. They say things like "OMG I paid $$$ for this dog and he STILL digs in the garbage" On the rare occasions they don't dump the dog, they list it in the paper trying to get some of their money back and give it to the first person who offers them a couple bucks for it.

On the "low cost" neuters, most of the vets around here don't include blood work and don't do it unless specifically asked to.


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## sagelfn

my vet only requires blood work for senior dogs but still asked if I wanted to do it and for $35 why not spend the money and potentially catch something early. Sage's panel came back with an elevated kidney enzyme level. We're going back next week to retest and make sure it was a hydration issue and not a problem

*edited to add*
if BYBs aren't going to prove their dogs the least they could do is the health tests. I would think they'd want to know if their own dog was in good health and they don't even do that.


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## selzer

Dainerra, do you think it is really a rare occasion that people who spend a thousand or more on a dog not dump it? Are the majority of the dogs you see in rescues or shelters dogs that people spent a considerable amount of money for. 

Most of the people I run into, if they spend a good amount on a dog, they keep it indoors, commit to training it, and are picky about what it eats. They also take it to the vet. The rest of the people in my area, maybe let the dogs in, maybe leave them on a chain, maybe just let them roam, they do not bother to take them to the vet unless they appear to be dying. They only take them to classes if the dog has behavior issues. 

I am sure there are yayhoos out there that have plenty of money and no clue what it means to purchase a living breathing dog. Some of these will give the dog up before making an effort, but I certainly would not consider that to be the norm.


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## Dainerra

one of my employers breeds yorkies. They generally charge $2000+ for the teacups. Several people I work with have bought dogs from them, work discount on "oversized" dogs is $900. Only one still has the dog she purchased and she is thinking of getting rid of it. The only reason she is trying to hold out is she wants to stud him out to make back some $$. She complains that he marks all over the house. He growls at the kids. He bites when he doesn't get his way. They leave him outside and then complain that he runs away. Exact same reasons that all the others got rid of their dogs. Most just gave them away to others in their families. One sold hers through the paper for $300. These are people whose take home pay is less than $300 a week. Because they work for him, he lets them make payments on the dogs ($40 a week or so). Most of them are still paying for a dog they no longer own; one woman only kept the dog she bought for 3 days!

Otherwise, paying $1000 for a dog around here is unheard of. (99% of the boss' dogs are sold online and shipped). Most people faint if you say you paid a few hundred for a dog. My next door neighbor was bragging that he paid $800 for his doberman. She was hit by a car several times before one finally killed her. Dogs will be dogs, so she was left in the yard to her own devices. They tried a few times to keep her inside, but she "tore *stuff* up" so outside she went. She was chained for a while, but they couldn't take her barking.

How much someone paid for a dog has no bearing on how much dog skill they have. Sure, some will want to "protect their investment" but that doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. To most, a dog will always be a thing or, at best, livestock. I guess it really depends on the area that you are in. Here, if people spend $$ on a dog, they expect it to come fully trained and to never have to do anything except dump out some food now and again. If it doesn't work out that way, they dump the dog at the pound. Or, if they want some money back, list it in the paper. Usually proclaiming "good bloodlines and not spayed" so that they can attract someone who wants to breed and make a buck.

ETA: to keep this on topic. Here, people would definitely agree that if you own a dog, you have the right to breed it. People are amazed that I paid "good money" for a dog and don't plan on earning it back. They just consider pumping out litters to be the way a dog "earns its keep" Shoot, people can't believe that I spayed Freya, a "free to good home" unregistered dog. "But the puppies would be so cute! people would buy them in a second" Once something is sold, its entirely the new owners responsibility. take back a puppy? why??? It doesn't belong to me anymore, Joe paid for it. If he dumps it in the pound, then he's out some $$, not my problem!
As I said, it's entirely the area that you live in.


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## Dainerra

well, I was going to add this on, but I was too slow.. 

Edited again: also, no one here would EVER buy from what we consider a reputable breeder. They are offended by the thought of a contract that would require them to spay/neuter their dog. They PAID for that dog and they feel that entitles them to do whatever they please with it. They consider the questions asked by a reputable breeder to be intrusive and "none of their business". They think buying a dog should be purely a business transaction - I have cash, I get a dog. They don't even like the idea of the breeder picking a dog for them. "what if I like the white one better? I don't care what they think the personality is, I'll take whatever dog I *dang* well please. It's my money!" want 2 pups from the same litter? You can get a discount on the second one! Take a boy and a girl, then you can make back some of your money! The male I will pay you to breed back to, the female you can bring here to my stud and you'll be in business for yourself!
You should see people's faces when I talk about what the people here consider a good breeder. Telling people to spay/neuter?? that the dog has to live in the house?? that you can't sell the dog if you get tired of it?? REQUIRING basic vet care???? that you can't just walk up with $$ and walk out the door with whatever pup catches your eye? The concept is completely foreign to them. 
Even though my co-worker (has been a yorkie breeder for years, not to be confused with those buying dogs from my boss) will turn away someone who gives her a "bad vibe", she doesn't have a contract. She doesn't screen homes other than phone calls saying "pups cost this much. shipping is $$. We take credit cards" She is floored that breeders here actually sell ANY dogs. Why would someone go through the hassle when you can look online and find hundreds of breeders who will just ask for $$.


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## RubyTuesday

Dainerra, there's a lot of that thinking/mindset here in Iowa as well. Even apart from the more extreme attitudes, if the dog gets to be a 'problem' or *major* inconvenience it's liable to get dumped with the usual rationalizations & excuses. Dumped might be a shelter, rescue, sale or giveaway through the want ads. Tragically, our disposable culture all too often extends to companion animals as well as electronics.

Until that mindset changes, shelters will be full to over flowing with unwanted animals that owners tired of, or declined to 'fix', ie train, housebreak, exercise. It's not too many dogs being bred IMO. It's a lack of real commitment on the part of owners.

IMO, people have the right to breed their dogs regardless of others opinions. Lisa stated it perfectly, _"Should they? No. I don't believe in forcing my beliefs in breeding on others (except my puppy owners), but I also do not support those whose breeding practices do not meet my own standards. I execute my rights by not buying what they are producing."_ Legislation which purports to limit breeding is invariably shoddy, ill conceived, tough to enforce & destined to be unfair in execution.

Legally living creatures are more than property. IF I could buy the Mona Lisa, I could slash it, burn it or paint over it. There are legal limits on what people can do to living creatures, be they pets, livestock or wildlife. 'Ownership' of our pets doesn't exempt us from legal responsibilities in their care & treatment. I'd like to see legal responsibility extended to the life of the pet. I'd like to see a law that all dogs & cats sold must be chipped & IF the buyer of that animal can no longer keep it, the breeder is obligated to take it back. Unless contractually obligated to do so, the breeder would not have to refund any money. The breeder could decide to keep the animal, place it in another home or humanely euthanize it. IMO, it s/b incumbent on breeders to deal 1st hand with the homeless, mismanaged pups they've produced.


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## Jessiewessie99

Well....I don't even know where to start if I did plan on breeding.lol. So I don't breed =D

So in conclusion....If you don't know what the heck you are doing when it comes to breeding..Don't do it.=D


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## AgileGSD

Everyone does have the right to breed their dog and with any luck, it will remain that way. Animal rights organizations are constantly attempting to take away our rights as dog owners, in the name of the supposed "greater good". This is a good article about that subject: 

Articles

Articles


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## onefastcobra

I spent $1800.00 for my GSD pup. Both parents Sch3, KKL1 for life and AD on both sides. One of the grandparents even had a FX title. My dog = breed if I want. Unfortunatly most of the breeders really have no idea what they are doing here in America.


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## Jessiewessie99

onefastcobra said:


> I spent $1800.00 for my GSD pup. Both parents Sch3, KKL1 for life and AD on both sides. One of the grandparents even had a FX title. My dog = breed if I want. Unfortunatly most of the breeders really have no idea what they are doing here in America.


what do u mean "Unfortunatly most of the breeders really have no idea what they are doing here in America."


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## AgileGSD

onefastcobra said:


> I spent $1800.00 for my GSD pup. Both parents Sch3, KKL1 for life and AD on both sides. One of the grandparents even had a FX title. My dog = breed if I want. Unfortunatly most of the breeders really have no idea what they are doing here in America.


 Not so quick there 

Just because a dog comes from a good pedigree with good parents doesn't mean the dog is breeding quality. Just because you paid $XXXX for a dog doesn't make the dog breeding quality either. The pedigree is only as good as the dog it represents - there are plenty of well bred dogs who have poor nerves, structural issues or don't pass their health clearances. If you want to breed quality, you have to evaluate and prove each dog on their own merits. You also have in depth knowledge of the pedigree, not just titles but what certain lines produce, issues certain dogs have/produce, etc. 

Again, anyone has the right to breed dogs and it will hopefully remain that way. But if you want to breed dogs of quality, there are specific things which must be done to insure that is what you are doing.


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## sagelfn

onefastcobra said:


> I spent $1800.00 for my GSD pup. Both parents Sch3, KKL1 for life and AD on both sides. One of the grandparents even had a FX title. My dog = breed if I want. *Unfortunatly most of the breeders really have no idea what they are doing here in America.*


yet you want to breed irresponsibly?


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## Lauri & The Gang

> does every dog owner have the right to breed?


Yes.

It falls on the dog *PURCHASER *to make an educated purchase.

You want to shut down puppy mills? Educate the *buyers*.

You want to cut down on the number of dogs in shelters? Educate the *buyers*.

There will always be SOME animals in shelters. Things happen that are beyond our control and at some point you may find yourself making that very tough decision.

But if John Q Public were more educated about getting a dog - knew about a breed and their traits, knew about spaying and neutering, knew about training and dealing with problems - then they would be less likely to buy from a unresponsible breeder and less likely to give up the dog due to solvable issues.


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## Dainerra

I know what they say about statistics, but I read once that the vast % of AKC litter registrations (discounting puppy mills) is by the "one time" breeder. John Q Public who wanted his children to experience the miracle of birth, or for Fluffy to have just one litter before spay, or wanted one just like her and KNEW that all of his family/friends would take a puppy.
So, I agree with Lauri - educate educate educate!


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## lhczth

Dainerra, you are correct, but it wasn't discounting mass commercial kennels (puppy mills). Of course they have their own registries now. People need to be educated about those "other" registries also.


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## Dainerra

ah, I was close then.. I can't say I'm surprised though! Just thinking of it boggles the mind because we all know that each puppy mill has so many litters, yet John Q. Public has more??


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## lhczth

I was rather shocked when I read that too.


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## Jessiewessie99

Who is John Q. Public?

And yes people do have the right to breed, but I think some people should have that right taken away.If you know what I mean.


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## Dainerra

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Who is John Q. Public?


it's a generic name to cover everyone, kind of like John Doe or Jane Doe.


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## selzer

I agree with Laurie's post, except that I think the general public knows about spaying and neutering. I really do not think there are many people, even the people who keep their dogs out back on a chain that do not _know_ about it. The fact is that most people's knowledge about speutering their pets is incomplete, the vets do not bother with the risks, just that you should do so and the earlier the better. 

But telling John Q Public about the risks to speutering their pet is likely to prevent some of them from doing so and those that are not bothered about keeping their animals intact and celibate will produce more litters. 

Whether the ends justify the means in this instance, whether the projected increase in litters is cause enough to keep owners in the dark about possible risks is material for another thread. 

JessieWessie, I agree that some people should have that right removed. People who have ever been convicted of animal cruelty should no longer be allowed by law to own any animal. 

Some of the new legislation that is trying to be passed in Ohio and probably other places requires finger prints and background checks on people wanting to purchase a license for breeding. I think that licensing laws for the general public should be expanded to include a background check. You do not have to be breeding your dogs to be cruel. With computers in place, anyone applying for a dog license should be run through the criminal court system to see if they have any convictions for cruelty to animals and not be granted the license if they do. Dogs that are not licensed should be confiscated, and if the owner is not eligible to have a license or cannot pay the fine for not purchasing one, they should not get their dog back. They should enforce the laws they do have, here they do not.

I think that if they really wanted to cut down on animals in shelters they could make micro chipping mandatory, any animal picked up would be scanned, the owners contacted and fined for leash law, dogs dumped, owners fined and charged with abandoning the dog, dogs dropped at shelters, owners pay a fee for dumping their dog. 

I see shelters as necessary, as Laurie said, there will always be a need for shelters, people do lose their jobs, homes, or die and have to give up their dogs. Even education cannot necessarily stop that.

But there is also a problem with the throw-away attitude that people have. No responsibility toward their pets. Dumping them because they failed to train them, or socialize them, or because they do not want them to get hair on the new sofa. I do not know if education can instill a soul or conscience or a sense of responsibility into people.


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## Jessiewessie99

The shelter I work at checks to see if the animal that comes in has a microchip, and if not they put a microchip in the animal. My shelter usually has a 10 day holding period in case the owner wants to come get their dog. After the 10 days is up, the dog is assessed and then put up for adoption.


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## Cardinal Von Crossbones

Selzer, I like the idea of mandatory microchipping as well. It seems like, as tech-savvy as society is today, we could be making more use of it to help the shelter situation. It wouldn't end cruelty or irresponsibility, or make bad things stop happening that put innocent animals in crappy situations, but at least some of those cruel and irresponsible people could be held accountable for their actions. 

Also, while you could use it to enforce negative action, I'm thinking it could be helpful to encourage positive action too. If a dog did manage to get loose, or lost, or even stolen, and that microchip was scanned by a vet, or shelter, the worried and searching owners of that dog could be contacted, or if the owner could report it into some kind of system "#### Reported Lost, such and such a date, and place." The effort to use technology could go a long way to helping some of the miscommunication and relieve a lot of hurt and confusion. It just makes a lot of sense.


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## Jessiewessie99

Cardinal Von Crossbones said:


> Selzer, I like the idea of mandatory microchipping as well. It seems like, as tech-savvy as society is today, we could be making more use of it to help the shelter situation. It wouldn't end cruelty or irresponsibility, or make bad things stop happening that put innocent animals in crappy situations, but at least some of those cruel and irresponsible people could be held accountable for their actions.
> 
> Also, while you could use it to enforce negative action, I'm thinking it could be helpful to encourage positive action too. If a dog did manage to get loose, or lost, or even stolen, and that microchip was scanned by a vet, or shelter, the worried and searching owners of that dog could be contacted, or if the owner could report it into some kind of system "#### Reported Lost, such and such a date, and place." The effort to use technology could go a long way to helping some of the miscommunication and relieve a lot of hurt and confusion. It just makes a lot of sense.



Like the Amber Alert System?


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## sagelfn

I love the mandatory microchip idea..have them verify chip info when rabies shots are done.


I'm confused when people say they adopted/rescued a dog but they didn't get it from a shelter or rescue.


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## Jessiewessie99

sagelfn said:


> I love the mandatory microchip idea..have them verify chip info when rabies shots are done.
> 
> 
> I'm confused when people say they adopted/rescued a dog but they didn't get it from a shelter or rescue.


That sounds confusing.lol


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## valreegrl

Here is a little real life statistic for you.....

My husband is a t-ball couch for little league and he has 9 kids on the team, one of which is ours and the other 2 are our neighbor's and friends. So that drops it down to 6 kids/parents that I have never met before. 

After a couple meetings/conversations this is what I learned: 

Child/Parent 1: They have two dogs. Their small terrier is dog aggressive according to them, although is fine with their current dog. I suggested a trainer and they flat out said "No. We are getting rid of him." 

Child/Parent 2: Her mother has a puppy mill. Nuff said about that.

Child/Parent 3: They have gone through 5 dogs in the last couple years. Each one having some sort of issue resulting in them "getting rid of it". The last one being their $2000.00 bulldog. 

After the third, my head exploded. My husband gave me the "please, don't start an issue" look. He needs to keep peace within the team, which I understand. 
But....*insert scream here*!


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## Liesje

In short, yes, I believe ever dog owner has the right to breed.

I do not see mandatory microchipping really making a dent in shelter population. At least in my area shelters, lost pets that are not recovered after a 10 day quarantine make up a marginal percentage of the animals. Most of them were simply unwanted by their owners and dumped, for whatever reason. Many already spayed/neutered. Also, I firmly believe that some dogs will have a better chance if they end up in the shelter. The last two dogs I have taken in as strays both suffered neglect at the hands of their "owners" and deserved good quality vet care offered by the shelter and to be adopted to new homes properly screened by the shelter.


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## sagelfn

Liesje said:


> In short, yes, I believe ever dog owner has the right to breed.
> 
> I do not see mandatory microchipping really making a dent in shelter population. At least in my area shelters, lost pets that are not recovered after a 10 day quarantine make up a marginal percentage of the animals. Most of them were simply unwanted by their owners and dumped, for whatever reason. Many already spayed/neutered. Also, I firmly believe that some dogs will have a better chance if they end up in the shelter. The last two dogs I have taken in as strays both suffered neglect at the hands of their "owners" and deserved good quality vet care offered by the shelter and to be adopted to new homes properly screened by the shelter.


I don't think it would cut down on the number that go into shelters either but it would give a way to hold people responsible for their animals..i'm talking about the abused neglected animals where there is no way to prove ownership.


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## Liesje

But people have the right to sign over their animals to the shelter and the right not to re-claim them. I'm not advocating doing so, but I've seen animals in such terrible shape I never would want the owners to be forced to take them back.


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## AgileGSD

sagelfn said:


> I don't think it would cut down on the number that go into shelters either but it would give a way to hold people responsible for their animals..i'm talking about the abused neglected animals where there is no way to prove ownership.


 How would you prove neglect was due to the owner? If a dog has been lost and out on his own for more than a few days, he may start to look "neglected". Would you see fit to charge an owner with abuse because their dog was lost?

IME most shelters have extremely little interest in reuniting dogs with their owners, even dogs with permanent ID. If the owner isn't there constantly asking about if their dog was found, their dog will likely be adopted out or killed just like any other dog. When I questioned a forum of rescue/shelter workers why so many shelters didn't even bother scanning for microchips, lots of them replied that "it just complicates things too much". I learned that many shelters don't scan for chips on the majority of pets because they don't want to have the "hassle" of trying to track down the owner and then have to hold the animal for an extended period of time. A shelter director here told me they only scan dogs which "look purebred" or "look like a dog someone called about being lost recently".

Shelters need to stop blaming breeders and the public for being "forced to kill healthy dogs" and start pursuing what they can do differently. There are still plenty of county pounds out there which don't even make an attempt at placing dogs, they give "strays" 3 days to find a home (and do nothing at all to promote adoption) and owner turn ins may not even get that long. Then there are shelters which do promote adoptions but turn down anyone who doesn't fit their vision of a perfect dog owner. Want to adopt a neutered dog from your shelter but have an intact dog in your home? Chances are fair that the shelter would rather kill that dog than let you take him. Same goes for not having or not having a fenced yard, having or not having a dog door, not having someone home all day, having children and on and on and on. Are dogs at such shelters really being killed for lack of homes? Or are they being killed due to shelter policies? 

This is a good, short read on the subject: Debunking Pet Overpopulation : Nathan J Winograd


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## Dainerra

I agree with a lot of the things you mentioned. Our county Animal Control doesn't even OWN a scanner. The local humane society does, but since going "no kill" they rarely take in strays and have a huge waiting list for accepting owner turn-ins. Even before, they only scanned dogs if you called to say "my dog is lost. He is a GSD and is microchipped." Then they would scan dogs that fit that description. Unless (and this is from a shelter employee) intake was done by someone that didn't see the notice about your dog. Then the dog wouldn't be scanned later because everyone would assume it was done when he was brought in, thereby your dog slipping through the cracks. She told me this because she wanted to stress how important it was to ALWAYS follow-up daily when your dog is missing and not to rely on a microchip/tags to get him home.

Even though a simple phone call can trace a rabies tag, no one does that either. It's "too much hassle" I know because I always ask when I move to a new area with my dogs. I like to know policies "just in case" It's very sad how little effort is made to ID lost dogs, even when it would only take a phone call.

Vet clinics in the area say that "sometimes" they will scan a dog if it's brought in by someone not the owner - IE you hit a stray dog with your car and take it to the vet. But, they said that is a very rare happening. Most people either just drive on, or if they do stop and call to report an injured dog, the Sheriff's Office sends someone out to shoot it. Few people want to accept financial responsibility for taking a stray dog to the vet.


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## selzer

I asked my vet and he said that he will scan only if he has a flyer for a lost dog that resembles the dog. 

I expect it is not good for business if the first thing you do is scan the dog to see if it is a missing/stolen dog.


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## Jessiewessie99

AgileGSD said:


> How would you prove neglect was due to the owner? If a dog has been lost and out on his own for more than a few days, he may start to look "neglected". Would you see fit to charge an owner with abuse because their dog was lost?
> 
> IME most shelters have extremely little interest in reuniting dogs with their owners, even dogs with permanent ID. If the owner isn't there constantly asking about if their dog was found, their dog will likely be adopted out or killed just like any other dog. When I questioned a forum of rescue/shelter workers why so many shelters didn't even bother scanning for microchips, lots of them replied that "it just complicates things too much". I learned that many shelters don't scan for chips on the majority of pets because they don't want to have the "hassle" of trying to track down the owner and then have to hold the animal for an extended period of time. A shelter director here told me they only scan dogs which "look purebred" or "look like a dog someone called about being lost recently".
> 
> Shelters need to stop blaming breeders and the public for being "forced to kill healthy dogs" and start pursuing what they can do differently. There are still plenty of county pounds out there which don't even make an attempt at placing dogs, they give "strays" 3 days to find a home (and do nothing at all to promote adoption) and owner turn ins may not even get that long. Then there are shelters which do promote adoptions but turn down anyone who doesn't fit their vision of a perfect dog owner. Want to adopt a neutered dog from your shelter but have an intact dog in your home? Chances are fair that the shelter would rather kill that dog than let you take him. Same goes for not having or not having a fenced yard, having or not having a dog door, not having someone home all day, having children and on and on and on. Are dogs at such shelters really being killed for lack of homes? Or are they being killed due to shelter policies?
> 
> This is a good, short read on the subject: Debunking Pet Overpopulation : Nathan J Winograd



Have you heard of the SPCA? Please do learn about them, if you haven't.

I hate it how alot of people(anywhere:here and in general) think most shelters are the same. I am not pointing any fingers. But the shelter I volunteer at is NOT like most shelters that have euthanize their dogs, or don't care for the owner.My shelter does put animals to sleep, but only if necessary. My shelter has a 93% adoption rate. Scans the dog to see if they have a microchip, if the dog doesn't, then they microchip it. The dogs and cats are al given a full vet examination, and given vaccinations(they have vets who work at the shelter everyday). If a dog is brought in and ahs a microchip or tag, they give the owner 10 days to come get the dog, if not the dog is assessed for any medical issues, and behavorial issues and then is put up for adoption. If the owner does come to get the dog long after 10 days, they would have to adopt their dog, but I think my shelter checks out the owner before they give the dog back. 

In fact for any potnetial adoptors my shelter gives them a questionaire, contract stating they won't do certain things like tail docking, ear cropping, taking the dogs voice box out, or declawing the cats. Basically and adoption process to show the people will be responsible owners. And all dogs and cats brought are spayed/neutered if not already. The shelter I volunteer at cares about both humans and animals, and tries its best to better the relationship between animals and humans through programs, summer camps, humane education, letting kids and adults volunteer together, activities for animals and humans( In May of this year they will Mark & Brian of KLOS come to the shelter and do a radio show). Oh and the shelter I volunteer at has every right to refuse to let people adopt a dog. Sometimes you need to see why shelters do that.

I just don't like it when people degrade shelters or talk bad about them.And make them seem like a bad guy. I know there are some bad shelters out there. But as a shelter volunteer shelter it hurts me.Thats all I am trying to say.

FYI: I am against PETA and all it does. Sadly there is a girl in my Public Speaking class who actually supports them. I wanted to tell her how bad they were. But I didn't want to start anything.

And AgileGSD, I think you need to learn more about shelters and their policies.


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## onyx'girl

Jessiewessie, 
Shelters and rescues are two different things, An "SPCA" is along the lines of a rescue, a shelter IMO is more of an animal control facility. Huge difference. AgileGSD is writing of more AC, than rescue...where overcrowding results in euth before the animals have a chance to find new homes.
SPCAs are different in every community, some try to prevent abuse or will be the animal police, the one in my community is a rescue only, has nothing to do with policing neglected or abused animals. They pull animals from AC's, some owner surrenders and rehome for profit.
Sorry to go off topic on this thread, but wanted to clarify the different ways shelters/rescues work.


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## Dainerra

Even under the SPCA name, I think your shelter is the exception that proves the rule. The vast majority of shelters in America are underfunded, understaffed and WAY overworked. Their job in a lot of cases is simply to warehouse animals. They don't seek adopters (though with the internet this is getting easier for ever rural shelters!). They don't have (or take) the time to actively seek owners of stray dogs. I am disheartened by how many don't do this even when the means to do so are right at their finger tips - tags and microchips.

The things listed in the article that Agile posted are true for the vast majority of the country. I know that they are here. Even though AC and the local Humane Society have adoption days and list dogs in the paper for adoption, have pictures posted of them in Wal-Mart, one of them doesn't even OWN a scanner. And it's the one responsible for picking up ALL stray dogs. Our Humane Society has gone "no-kill" and just doesn't have any more space. They have a long waiting list for people wanting to dump their dogs; those who don't want to wait just take them along a back road and turn them loose. They will bend over backwards to try to help, but only scan lost dogs if there is a notice matching that description.

Both will call if there is a name/address tag. but not if the only ID is a rabies tag - even though all you have to do is call the clinic listed on the tag and give them the ID #, they "don't have time" to look up the phone number. 


Selzer, my vet doesn't check "owned" dogs that come in unless it's a new patient with a dog matching a description of one they have a notice about. I was talking about injured strays that were brought in. Very rare occurrence, but it does happen on occasion.


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## onyx'girl

Where I live, we are fortunate to not have many puppy mills, and there are several rescues that work together. The SPCA here will go to several states and pull dogs/cats to help eleviate their overcrowdedness-they even took a number of stray dogs from Mexico a couple years ago. Fosters are abundant so the dogs aren't living at the kennel, and adoption events are held at every petstore every weekend. There are no stores that sell cats/dogs either. I wish all communities were so lucky.
It seems the problem here is purebred dogs coming up missing, never to be seen again...


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## Dainerra

a little story to illustrate how even simple policies can vary from shelter to shelter. 
Mason Co WV, puppies are given basic vaccines, esp parvo as soon as they arrive.

Jackson Co WV, just a few miles away, does not. If any puppy starts showing symptoms, they euthanize EVERY puppy in the shelter. No vet visits, no waiting to see of they get sick, just euthanizes all. Even pups that have already been adopted and are just waiting for to be spay/neutered before going to their new homes.

I adopted an adorable lab female, about 7 weeks old from Jackson Co on a Sat morning. I was told that I wouldn't be able to take her home until Thursday as that was the day that the local vet did spay/neuter for the shelter. I was given his address and told I could pick her up at 3PM. 
On Thursday I called the vet to see if she came through her surgery ok and I could pick her up at 3. They told me that they didn't have an lab/mix puppies from the shelter. So I called the shelter. The woman said "oh! all the puppies were euthanized Tuesday morning. One showed symptoms of parvo so we had to have them destroyed" This was a pup who already had a home. No one even contacted me to let me know, let alone to ask if I wanted to get treatment for her. I don't even know if she was actually sick!!

ETA: on the bizarre flip side, Mason Co will adopt to anyone who shows up and says "give me a dog". Jackson Co, on the other hand, has a short questionnaire and requires that renters bring a letter from their landlord saying they are allowed to have pets. They also will give you a list of area vets if you don't already have one of your own.


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## ShepherdsField

There are many sides to this issue and I agree with parts of several of them. I don't breed, but I do like to participate in dog sports. I have adopted and fostered. At the moment, I own two adoptees, Raven, a Lab and Boog a mix. And I am fostering 2 purebreed GSD's. Raven, we adopted as a 4 month old and we have been able to get on few titles on her. The mix, I am doing basic training with. The two fosters arrived with very little training and are very raw dogs I am not sure will good for anything but pets unless someone spends a lot of time and money on them, but both are young, so there is hope. 

But when I want a dog for a specific purpose, I have purchased from breeders. When I wanted to do Shutzhund, I imported a dog and bought another with imported parents who were titled in the sport. I found it easier, as a beginner, to have a dog that had some training already and new what it was doing, and then, one with the talent built in, to hopefully achieve. My heart goes out to dogs in shelters, but finding one that is what you want, without knowing it's pedigree is a crap shoot. And I don't know anyone who can adopt dog after dog until they find the right one. 

Also, with existing dogs, it is much easier to bring a puppy into the mix and have them grow up in the pack. I've had adults, like Boog, just fit in as if he were there the entire time. But just as often, we've had dogs that didn't fit and couldn't adjust to a pack, like the fosters, one who has to be kenneled separately until we find him a home. We let him cirulate while we have at least two people in the yard, or walk him with one of the girls, but he is never left alone with the pack.


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## mandelyn

Everyone has the right to breed, but there's every few who actually should. I'm so sick and tired of the stress and expense, as well as the emotional hurt, of taking care of poorly bred animals. Dogs especially, but animals in general. Horses are a close 2nd. 

Hopefully one day I can breed some "perfect" puppies. But so far, absolutely every dog I have ever owned (show dogs too) ended up spayed or neutered. Every single one of them, for one reason or another, that I didn't want puppy buyers to take care of. I won't pass my mistakes onto others. There's no such thing as an accident litter. I've survived countless heat cycles with dogs, never once allowing access to a male. Crated, inside a room, hand walking only inside a fenced yard. I was paranoid about an accident litter, and it never happened since I took all measures of responsibility seriously.

Ricca, my pride and joy, spayed for a skin issue and her temperament. She would have made down right gorgeous puppies. But she's crazy and prone to skin infections. No puppies. Waited until she was 3 just to be sure, then spayed her. Without passing on those issues in an accident.

One of these days I'll be able to buy a dog without any issues. I've already been through cancer, bad temperaments, bad hips, bad teeth, bad skin, allergies, digestive issues... you name it, all because of careless breeding. 

To breed, you need to know generation upon generation of the dogs you're putting together. You need to know how previous puppies grew up, to know if you should do a repeat litter. You need to test for everything, let the dogs fully mature. Know what the cancer rates are within a line. All manner of things. Not doing that... you're just passing on heart ache to the puppy owners. Don't breed a one year old dog because she's pretty and on her second heat. Don't breed your male because you think he's amazing. Everyone thinks their dog is amazing, what if we all bred our amazing dogs?


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## Jessiewessie99

I don't the the SPCA is anything like a rescue. They look like a government funded facility, but they aren't. They are public funded. I just hate it how some people degrade shelters.


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## AgileGSD

Jessiewessie99 said:


> And AgileGSD, I think you need to learn more about shelters and their policies.


 I know that the vast majority of shelters and rescues won't adopt to an owner who has an intact dog, no matter how good the home is. A friend of mine couldn't even adopt an old, neutered cat from the local shelter because she had two intact dogs. Another person I know was turned down to adopt from a rescue because she had an intact male dog that was a CH/UD. Also know people who have been turned down for having kids and for not having a fenced yard. Those are not policies designed to get animals out of shelters and into homes, yet such policies are not only very common in the rescue world but are also widely promoted. 

I also know that the problem of adoptable animals being killed in shelters will never be solved without shelters/rescues being open to change. Why is it acceptable for shelters to kill all puppies in their care because one of them might have symptoms of a treatable disease? If you think all AC and rescue/shelter workers place saving the lives of homeless animals as a top priority, you may not know as much as you think you do about shelter politics.


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## Jessiewessie99

AgileGSD said:


> I know that the vast majority of shelters and rescues won't adopt to an owner who has an intact dog, no matter how good the home is. A friend of mine couldn't even adopt an old, neutered cat from the local shelter because she had two intact dogs. Another person I know was turned down to adopt from a rescue because she had an intact male dog that was a CH/UD. Also know people who have been turned down for having kids and for not having a fenced yard. Those are not policies designed to get animals out of shelters and into homes, yet such policies are not only very common in the rescue world but are also widely promoted.
> 
> I also know that the problem of adoptable animals being killed in shelters will never be solved without shelters/rescues being open to change. Why is it acceptable for shelters to kill all puppies in their care because one of them might have symptoms of a treatable disease? If you think all AC and rescue/shelter workers place saving the lives of homeless animals as a top priority, you may not know as much as you think you do about shelter politics.



I think I know reason the shelter or rescue will not let someone adopt a dog who doesn't have a fenced yard. Why would you let someone have a dog who doesn't have it fenced in? Hello the dog can get out, and get hurt or easily stolen. As for the kid, maybe the dog gets extremely excited around kids of certain ages, or is aggressive towards kids. My neighbor had a GSD who used to love kids, but the lady behind her had grandkids who would throw stuff at the dog, and after that the dog hated little kids. Why don't those people ask the shelter why the dog isn't good with kids? If the dog doesn't like kids 12 and younger then obviously thats not the dog for you. I for sure wouldn't want to put my kids in danger with a dog thats not good with kids. And I for sure would let anyone adopt a dog who doesn't have a fenced yard!You think its ok to let someone who doesn't have a fenced yard adopt a dog?You think thats safe? You think its safe to let a family adopt a dog that doesn't like kids of a certain age? I think not. There are many reasons a shelter or rescue will not let someone adopt a dog or cat because they have an intact dog. Most shelters don't mind letting people who have an intactdog adopt a dog who is neutered or spayed.

As for putting animals to sleep, there are some reasons for that. For instance, some dog's minds will deteriorate while being at the shelter, and eventually lead to behavioral issues, the dog is probably very old, the dog may have aggression issues. I was watching animal cops on animal planet and they rescued a group of dogs that were agressive, neglected and abused. They were able to rehabilitate and save most of the dogs, but one dog was too agressive and had to be put down. Shelters and rescues do their best(well at least most do) to save every dog they can, and sadly they can't.

Do you think its easy for them to put down dogs?No it isn't. Its never easy putting down any dog no matter what. And no shelters will not put all dogs down because 1 dog has a symptom that is treatable. More than likely, they put that dog in isolation, away from the other dogs so they don't get what that dog had. If the dog has a disease that is NOT treatable, such as cancer, they would isolate the dog, do check ups, take care of it, and see if the cancer will go away. If not, the best and less painful solution is to put the animal down.

And yes, most shelters and rescues top prioity is for the dog, and to help save and get the dog a forever and loving home!If a shelter(such as the one I volunteer at) has a 93% adoption rate, obviously they are doing something right.I know for a fact, most shelters and rescues are doing whats best for the dog and human, to ensure both will be safe and happy.

Please learn why shelters/rescues have the policies they have.

Like I said before, you need to learn more about shelters.And yes many shelters/resuces are open to change, only if its in best interest for the dog or cat.


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## Dainerra

there are some shelters that have a blanket "no kids" policy. no dog/cat anything no matter what if you have kids of a certain age. Why? because it's easier than evaluating on a case by case basis. it's not a matter of telling an adopter "hey, this dog isn't good with kids. This one, though, loves them" It's "I have a child" "Sorry, we don't adopt out to homes with kids under X years of age" Our local humane society has that policy with cats - no homes with kids under 10 (?) 

As for the fenced yard, there have been discussions here many times debating that policy. Many people assume that, because they have a fenced yard, they don't have to exercise their dog; just put it outside and leave it. I, personally, would rather give my dog to someone (with or without a fence), who knows that they need to be with their dog every day.

There ARE shelters who will put down every puppy just because one shows signs of parvo. If you read my post, it happened to a pup that I was waiting to pick up. In that shelter, if one dog or puppy shows symptoms that "could" be parvo, they euthanize every dog/puppy under 6 months of age.
Just because YOUR shelter does things responsibly, there are those who provide ZERO vet care and euthanize dogs that need even basic care. Dog comes in with an injury, the dog is immediately euthanized unless it has a collar - then they hold it for the required 3 days, but it doesn't get treatment. If the dog is suffering, it is put down immediately.


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## AgileGSD

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I think I know reason the shelter or rescue will not let someone adopt a dog who doesn't have a fenced yard. Why would you let someone have a dog who doesn't have it fenced in?


Do you think a dog is better off dead than in a home without a fenced yard?

I placed an Aussie I rescued with someone who was turned down by their local Aussie rescue for not having a fenced yard. This family had over 20 years of experience with Aussies and all but once lived to be old dog (one died young due to a health problem). They are an outstanding home and I choose them over many other people I had interested in the dog.



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Why don't those people ask the shelter why the dog isn't good with kids? If the dog doesn't like kids 12 and younger then obviously thats not the dog for you. I for sure wouldn't want to put my kids in danger with a dog thats not good with kids.


It isn't a matter of an individual animal not being good with kids. The issue is shelters who refuse to adopt any pets to families with children. 



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Most shelters don't mind letting people who have an intactdog adopt a dog who is neutered or spayed.


That isn't the case at all. Most shelters will not adopt to any one who has an intact animal for any reason. 





Jessiewessie99 said:


> And no shelters will not put all dogs down because 1 dog has a symptom that is treatable. More than likely, they put that dog in isolation, away from the other dogs so they don't get what that dog had.


What about the puppy Dainerra adopted but never got to bring home? I know for a fact that no shelter in my area will attempt to treat a puppy for Parvo. It is not uncommon in county run or rural shelters for all dogs to be killed when they have puppies with Parvo or an outbreak of Kennel Cough. 





Jessiewessie99 said:


> If a shelter(such as the one I volunteer at) has a 93% adoption rate, obviously they are doing something right.I know for a fact, most shelters and rescues are doing whats best for the dog and human, to ensure both will be safe and happy.


You seem to only have experience with the shelter you volunteer at. It is 
great that your shelter has a 93% adoption rate. There are still high kill shelters that kill 80+% of the animals they take in. There are shelters that make no attempt at adopting dogs out. And there are shelters which put their pushing their agenda through policies such as no kids, must have a fence, no intact animals over finding animals homes. 

I suggest you read through this blog to understand what goes on at some shelters: Blog : Nathan J Winograd


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## holland

I only have one experience with a shelter. I adopted my second GSD from there and when I first met her she growled at my current dog...the shelter worker wanted to find her a home she liked her and could not adopt anymore more animals So on her own time she brought Sadie to my house and she stayed. At the time I don't think I had a fenced yard I got that later


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## Jessiewessie99

AgileGSD said:


> Do you think a dog is better off dead than in a home without a fenced yard?
> 
> I placed an Aussie I rescued with someone who was turned down by their local Aussie rescue for not having a fenced yard. This family had over 20 years of experience with Aussies and all but once lived to be old dog (one died young due to a health problem). They are an outstanding home and I choose them over many other people I had interested in the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't a matter of an individual animal not being good with kids. The issue is shelters who refuse to adopt any pets to families with children.
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't the case at all. Most shelters will not adopt to any one who has an intact animal for any reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about the puppy Dainerra adopted but never got to bring home? I know for a fact that no shelter in my area will attempt to treat a puppy for Parvo. It is not uncommon in county run or rural shelters for all dogs to be killed when they have puppies with Parvo or an outbreak of Kennel Cough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to only have experience with the shelter you volunteer at. It is
> great that your shelter has a 93% adoption rate. There are still high kill shelters that kill 80+% of the animals they take in. There are shelters that make no attempt at adopting dogs out. And there are shelters which put their pushing their agenda through policies such as no kids, must have a fence, no intact animals over finding animals homes.
> 
> I suggest you read through this blog to understand what goes on at some shelters: Blog : Nathan J Winograd



I mostly depends on what kind of reputation of shelter or rescue you go to. I for one will not go to a shelter that kills 80% of their dogs(sounds like PETA shelter.)

For houses that have no fenced yards such as apartments, I wouldn't mind letting them adopt a dog as long as they promise to give the dog the proper exercise. You seem to be putting down shelters as if they are ALL bad. I know many people who have a dog thats still intact and adopted a dog who isn't intact. I think the reason shelters and rescues will put down a all dogs 6 months and younger when their is another dog with a harmful disease such as parvo is because they are able to contract the disease easier.Its called a safety precaution. Would rather adopt a dog from a shelter with dogs in the same kennel house with a dog with parvo or would rather adopt a dog from a shelter that cares for the dog health?

You seem to be listing as all shelters and rescues as a bad thing. If it weren't for these rescues and shelter, what would happen to all those stray dogs and cats? the abuses and neglected?I think you have something against shelters.

Yes, I understand there are some bad rescues/shelters that care nothing for the animals in their care, and their animals live in horrible conditions.Its like with breeders too. there are good ones and bad ones. You have to go to the breeders to see how the dogs are treated, taken care of. Sometimes you have look into a breeder to see if thats the right place to get a dog from. Same with shelters/rescues, you have to do your homework to ensure that this is a good place to get a dog.Also breeders screen potential puppy buyers to make sure their puppies are going to a good home, and they have many reasons they wouldn't let a person buy a puppy from them. Breeders have policies and rules when it comes to their puppies and dogs. Just like animal shelters and rescues do.

I am not trying to sound wrong and offensive, but it seems you thinking all shelters, and rescues are the same and that they care nothing for the dog or human. Its supposed to be in best interest of the animal _and human _but in some sad cases it isn't.

I am using my shelter as an example of what most shelters and rescues should be like in some ways.Most shelters will be happy to explain why they have such policies and rules when it comes to the animals in their care.

Just like breeders, you need to do homework and research about a shelter/rescue, make sure you are getting dog/puppy from a good place, that takes care of their animals and has respect for humans too.

The reason I am comparing shelters/rescues and breeders, is because in some ways they are alike.


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## Dainerra

I wouldn't say ALL, but I would say that a good majority of them still operate that way. It's mainly a budgeting problem - vet care just isn't provided at many shelters. Therefore, any stray dogs that get sick are just euthanized. If it's something contagious, it's not uncommon to euthanize all of the dogs that MIGHT have come into contact. That is how a lot of rural shelters handle parvo puppies; they euthanize not just that litter, but any puppy considered to be of an "at risk' age. 

It's not that they are a PETA shelter. It's that there is no money in the budget to do more than warehouse dogs until their time is up.


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## Jessiewessie99

Now pounds are thing i have an issue with

Yes, money is big issue.especially in this economy. Some shelters, such the one I volunteer at, is not government funded(looks like it). But thanks to generous donations from the public, the shelters is in good condition. I wish most shelters had the generosity my shelter has had. 

Also another reason shelters/rescues put a dog down it because most(not all) dog's mind's will start to deteriorate. That can lead to many issues, physical and behavioral. Some dogs get it more severe than others. I became attached to 2 dogs at the shelter I volunteer at and they were put to sleep, because their mind started to deteriorate, and they try to work with the dogs, but the best and least painful way was to put them down. Its never easy.

The mind deterioration isn't only for old dogs either. Aspen was 8 months old and Kyle was 1. The shelter life just wasn't for them. I was really upset about it at first, but I knew the shelter was doing what was best for the dog.As for dogs not good with kids....

Recently my shelter dealt with a customer, who had a son who was about 12.She told me she was interested in a dog and wanted to see take the dog out. I told her what to do, i was with another person and dog, and she said thank you and went on. Then about 10 minutes later she came out of the main building, furious, and ranted to me saying "I went up to the front desk and asked to see the dog. They said no, because she wasn't good with kids 15 and younger. My son has been around pitbull all his life. I asked how they know, and they said, when they assessed the dog, she was nervous around kids." I was polite and just nodded. Eventually the lady left. I was thinking, well not all pitbulls are the same. Not all will like your son.

Recently, the shelter had a husky who wasn't good around kids 12 and younger, that was because he would get very aroused and excited and that can have a bad outcome. But that husky was adopted.=)

And as I type this, my GSD, Tanner,is looking at me over the screen, whom my family adopted at a shelter. He was originally brought in as a stray. He was adopted, but then the people who adopted him brought him back, because they were moving. They had Tanner fro a month. When you move, you know very well ahead of time when your going to move. Well anyways, most shelters would have put him down, but Tanner was put up for adoption again. My brother and I were looking for a playmate for our other GSD, Molly, we came across Tanner. We went to the shelter, and saw him, but we weren'y ready just yet, so my parents and I went on looking. But 10 minutes later we hear over an intercom, " Will Mr. & Mrs. McLeod, please come to the front desk. Your son is waiting." We go up thinkin Austin did something bad.We get up to the office, and there is Austin standing there with Tanner, he walks him up to us and Tanner gives us his paw. That had did it, he was coming home with us!


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## selzer

As a breeder, I have a real problem with the fence thing. 

Someone without a fence, may be aware that he will have to move his butt outside with his puppy to take him out. People with a fence think they only have to open the door.

I like fences. I love the fact that I can open my door and let the dog bound out. But I would never leave them out there with nothing but a fence keeping them safe, especially puppies. Puppies dig, eat grass and everything else, and can sometimes wriggle through fence joints, etc. People steal puppies from yards. Dogs and Puppies are tormented by brats with sticks and stones. 

Also, having a fenced yard does not assure proper exercise. A dog in a yard will find a shady spot and have a nap. All of them do not rush around getting exercise. Only if you take a ball out there and encourage them to run, can you guarantee it. 

I just visited Joy's litter brother. No fence. We were right up on lake Erie, woods on both sides, nice lawn with a gold fish pond, both dogs were running and playing off-lead (private road), and we were right out there with them. I have no worries about this dog having a good life. They told me that they walk him every day, and he makes his rounds. 

But shelters and rescues are dealing with a lot more dogs, a lot of people, both employees/volunteers and potential purchasers, and they have to have a set guide for all potential applicants, that volunteers/employees can mark yay or nay to, and the out come is that in the opinion of this shelter, we think we can do better for this dog, or in the opinion of this shelter, we think this dog will be ok with you.


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## Jessiewessie99

Yes, if the person has a fenced yard then they have to also take a dog out and get its exercise. Having only a fenced yard will not do. My aunt lives in a neighborhood where peple have huge backyards, well more like 2.lol. she has a normal sized backyard, then she has a bigger fenced area.its because alot of people have horses.

She has to get the fences redone at the front, because there well, there is no fence there.lol So when she does we are going to let our dogs run in her huge acreage, plus she is getting a pool, so her small backyard and big backyard will be combined. So its like a party yard back there its so huge!lol.

Yet, my aunts has 2 little dogs(Chihuahua/MinPin Mix, and Hairball mix.lol) and she lives in an area wher there are coyotes, bobcats, hawks, that can easily take her dogs. but she doesn't let her dogs roam in the big acereage yard, she stays in the little back yard.But anyways, she has alot of land, but has fences.

Also, at my shelter, we have to be sure to tell the front desk people about people who we think are good choices and bad choices. We have a right to refuse service to anyone we feel that will not be googd choice for our dogs and cats.

If we just let anyone adopt a dog, for anything, most of those dogs will end up dead, or back in the shelters.


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## GSDolch

You cant go by just YOUR shelter or use it as an only example.

There are alot of shelters who just dont have the means to adopt a dog out do to resources, man power or money. Some areas have SO many dogs coming and going that they HAVE to put down dogs..sometimes healthy, sometimes puppies, so they have room for the other animals coming in.

There are also shelters that will put down an animal because its time is up. 3 days...no adoptions...sorry put down. And it has nothing to do with PeTA

Just look at the rescue section, so many people trying to pull HEALTHY dogs before their time runs out and they are KILLED.

You are right there are good shelters/rescues and bad ones but I wish more could go by on a case by case basis instead of just saying, if you can adopt cause of xx, even though I understand that that would take up more than some have.


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## Jessiewessie99

I am using it as an example because its a wellknown organization.

I just wish people would stop thinking that shelters are refusing people because they don't want but for very good reasons, and put animals to sleep for very good reasons.


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## Dainerra

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I am using it as an example because its a wellknown organization.
> 
> I just wish people would stop thinking that shelters are refusing people because they don't want but for very good reasons, and put animals to sleep for very good reasons.


and the rest of us are pointing out that sometimes there is no "good" reason. Shelters like yours are still VERY much the exception. 

But, it has me curious. Does your shelter ever get full? Do they turn away dogs that are brought in? 

We have a Humane Society Shelter here that just went "no kill." They were already full from when they were the only shelter in the county; so once they became no kill, they didn't have room for any dogs to come in. Now, they adopt out as many dogs as possible, but it's never enough to make a dent in the waiting list of people wanting to turn in their dogs. So, any strays automatically have to go to the Animal Control facility that only keeps strays a limited time and then euthanize them. 

So, while in theory, they are no kill, they simply pass those dogs on to become someone else's problem. If someone has a dog with an "issue" they don't HAVE to take that dog into the Humane Society. They can pick and choose which dogs they accept.

Some sheters turn away dogs that they would have problems adopting out. So, they have a very high adoption rate, but they achieve that by only accepting dogs that they can easily find homes for.


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## onyx'girl

Another reason fostering is so important, keeps the dogs from going crazy in a kennel environment and relieves the pressure of overcrowding. Along with working on problems so a dog could eventually be adopted.


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## Jessiewessie99

Dainerra said:


> and the rest of us are pointing out that sometimes there is no "good" reason. Shelters like yours are still VERY much the exception.
> 
> But, it has me curious. Does your shelter ever get full? Do they turn away dogs that are brought in?
> 
> We have a Humane Society Shelter here that just went "no kill." They were already full from when they were the only shelter in the county; so once they became no kill, they didn't have room for any dogs to come in. Now, they adopt out as many dogs as possible, but it's never enough to make a dent in the waiting list of people wanting to turn in their dogs. So, any strays automatically have to go to the Animal Control facility that only keeps strays a limited time and then euthanize them.
> 
> So, while in theory, they are no kill, they simply pass those dogs on to become someone else's problem. If someone has a dog with an "issue" they don't HAVE to take that dog into the Humane Society. They can pick and choose which dogs they accept.
> 
> Some sheters turn away dogs that they would have problems adopting out. So, they have a very high adoption rate, but they achieve that by only accepting dogs that they can easily find homes for.



My shelter, has a animal control center, and they have their own kennels, and we have the isolation section, alot of the dogs are kenneled together(mostly little dogs). Right now they are doing some construction, so they maybe adding on. We keep the puppies and cats in rooms with huge windows, we also have Cat Cotteges.lol, and a Cat Cattery, there is also a doggie hotel.

We keep the dogs in any available kennels, we also have some big kennels and we would probably have 2 medium sized kennels. There are also som extra big rooms that we are willing to accomodate any extra animals.

Here is a virtual tour of pictures of the shelter:
Virtual Tour

Also thank goodness, for foster parents. My shelter only puts dogs down if necessary. If there is a overcrowding issue, we have another facility in Hawethorne, CA.


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## Jessiewessie99

onyx'girl said:


> Another reason fostering is so important, keeps the dogs from going crazy in a kennel environment and relieves the pressure of overcrowding. Along with working on problems so a dog could eventually be adopted.


We have an fostering program at our shelter. Which is accepting applications.=)


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## AgileGSD

Dainerra said:


> We have a Humane Society Shelter here that just went "no kill." They were already full from when they were the only shelter in the county; so once they became no kill, they didn't have room for any dogs to come in.


 It takes more than just becoming a No-Kill, the shelter has to change what they are doing to be successful. There needs to be a good foster program, willingness to work with rescues, try to get owned pets back into their homes, etc. This has a guide for shelters who want to be no-kill (check out reforming animal control): No Kill Advocacy Home Page


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## Dainerra

I know that they have adoption trailers and promotions at pretty much every public event and regular "adoption days" at PetCo and other local stores. But, I'm not sure about their policies as far as fostering and working with rescue.

I just know that they have an "intake form" that requires any past problems be disclosed. If the dog has a history - training problems, aggression, etc etc, they turn the dog away.


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## sagelfn

converstation that just took place here at work

Man-asking around if anyone knows of any puppies for sale
woman- asks what kind he's looking for
man- my wife wants a brown one, nothing huge and nothing small like a taco dog
woman- my lab is due in a couple of weeks and my moms lab will have a litter a little after that
man-you have brown ones
woman-sometimes I have brown ones sometimes I dont depends on which dog got her but my mom always has brown ones
man- thats perfect..goes and gets checkbook
man-do they have those papers AKC
woman- no you don't need those papers AKC is only if you want to show your dog
man- oh yeah we don't want to do that
then he googled "brown lab" images to see what one looked like


I didn't even know she had dogs and now she's a "breeder"


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## Jessiewessie99

sagelfn said:


> converstation that just took place here at work
> 
> Man-asking around if anyone knows of any puppies for sale
> woman- asks what kind he's looking for
> man- my wife wants a brown one, nothing huge and nothing small like a taco dog
> woman- my lab is due in a couple of weeks and my moms lab will have a litter a little after that
> man-you have brown ones
> woman-sometimes I have brown ones sometimes I dont depends on which dog got her but my mom always has brown ones
> man- thats perfect..goes and gets checkbook
> man-do they have those papers AKC
> woman- no you don't need those papers AKC is only if you want to show your dog
> man- oh yeah we don't want to do that
> then he googled "brown lab" images to see what one looked like
> 
> 
> I didn't even know she had dogs and now she's a "breeder"



Sounds like a BYB to me...


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## AgileGSD

sagelfn said:


> converstation that just took place here at work
> 
> Man-asking around if anyone knows of any puppies for sale
> woman- asks what kind he's looking for
> man- my wife wants a brown one, nothing huge and nothing small like a taco dog
> woman- my lab is due in a couple of weeks and my moms lab will have a litter a little after that
> man-you have brown ones
> woman-sometimes I have brown ones sometimes I dont depends on which dog got her but my mom always has brown ones
> man- thats perfect..goes and gets checkbook
> man-do they have those papers AKC
> woman- no you don't need those papers AKC is only if you want to show your dog
> man- oh yeah we don't want to do that
> then he googled "brown lab" images to see what one looked like
> 
> 
> I didn't even know she had dogs and now she's a "breeder"


Not sure what your point is


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## sagelfn

lol I must have deleted the last part of my post? basically I was saying that clueless buyers were also a problem not just the BYBs. This guy has no concept of breed behaviors and needs and thinks all dogs are the same if you train them. who says I want a brown dog and doesn't care what kind it is as long as its brown. The woman and I talk a lot and I always talk about Sage she's never mentioned even having a dog its just strange to me.


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## Jessiewessie99

sagelfn said:


> lol I must have deleted the last part of my post? basically I was saying that clueless buyers were also a problem not just the BYBs. This guy has no concept of breed behaviors and needs and thinks all dogs are the same if you train them. who says I want a brown dog and doesn't care what kind it is as long as its brown. The woman and I talk a lot and I always talk about Sage she's never mentioned even having a dog its just strange to me.


Yeah that seems kinda off.


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## Dainerra

that is the majority of most people I've met - a dog is a dog is a dog. you decide what you want it to look like, then go pick one out. If you do want something specific, like a beagle for hunting rabbits, then you take the first beagle that you find. if it doesn't work out, drop it off at the pound (or just shoot it) and get another


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## sagelfn

Dainerra said:


> that is the majority of most people I've met - a dog is a dog is a dog. you decide what you want it to look like, then go pick one out. If you do want something specific, like a beagle for hunting rabbits, then you take the first beagle that you find. if it doesn't work out, drop it off at the pound (or just shoot it) and get another


how do you not just beat them over the head!? my tolerance for idiots is gone this week I think


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## Jessiewessie99

I would find more about the breed and see who breeds what your looking for and who can.

Thats like getting a Husky, because you think its pretty and you want a calm dog and then find out its super active and hyper, then turning it into the shelter.


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## Dainerra

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I would find more about the breed and see who breeds what your looking for and who can.
> 
> Thats like getting a Husky, because you think its pretty and you want a calm dog and then find out its super active and hyper, then turning it into the shelter.


that's exactly what a large majority of the population does. Or get rid their dog when they find out it sheds. Or that they got a beagle and it barks. Or their sheltie has a lot of hair (and barks). Or have a dog and now they are pregnant so the dog gets dumped. Once I read a rant that someone turned in their old dog because they got a new puppy and the pup "annoyed" the older dog, so the old dog got dumped at the pound.

Too many people view their pets as just another disposable object


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## BlackPuppy

I know this will get lost in the crowd, but breeders who are breeding to "better the breed" may be making it worse. Why trust them?

From what I've read over the years, the only people who like show line GSD are the ones breeding them and the show judges.

One of the interesting things about buying my puppy from The Netherlands. Dogs and bitches need approval from the breed club to breed and be registered. There is a limit on the number of times these dogs can be breed. They have to reach a certain level in conformation, but does not have to be a champion or even an Excellent. And they have to have certain health clearances. That won't stop other people from breeding, but the dog won't be registered. The best thing is the price for puppies is set at 500 euros for all puppies.


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## selzer

Saying that the only people that like showline GSDs are people that breed them is making a pretty bold blanket statement that has nothing to back it up. It is even worse than saying the only people that like working line dogs are people doing schutzhund and LEOs, because there are two distinct show lines out there, maybe more, as England and Canada and Austraila have some pretty specific lines and other countries probably do too. 

It does make me nervous when people are out there to "better the breed." The breed is ok. We have a standard, there are several standards, if people would just breed to the standard, and breed for balance, proper size, and temperament, instead of extreme angles, size, or over the top drives. 

If you go into breeding thinking that you will make your mark with your dogs by defining a certain characteristic and being known for that characteristic, than I think you've missed the mark. If you are breeding for good feet or good shoulders, and let other things go in lieu of that. If you inbreed to set the type and ignore negatives that are coming out of that and continue anyway, yes I think you can do harm. 

I like the idea of breeding to preserve the breed. We need good breeders who are breeding for balance, health, temperament, conformation, etc., else we leave the breed to the puppy mills. 

But as for people not liking showline dogs, that is completely out there. There are tons of people who want dogs that are what they consider the traditional black and tan saddle back dogs. They want them to look like the dogs they have seen on tv, which are mostly showline dogs. These are the people that will ask you what your bi-color is mixed with, that they did not realize they came in solid black, and are not familiar with sables at all. But others are people who have grown up with shepherds and love them.


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## Jessiewessie99

Dainerra said:


> that's exactly what a large majority of the population does. Or get rid their dog when they find out it sheds. Or that they got a beagle and it barks. Or their sheltie has a lot of hair (and barks). Or have a dog and now they are pregnant so the dog gets dumped. Once I read a rant that someone turned in their old dog because they got a new puppy and the pup "annoyed" the older dog, so the old dog got dumped at the pound.
> 
> Too many people view their pets as just another disposable object



I know. I hope these people don't do that to the brown lab they are going to get. Labs are very active dogs.


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## AgileGSD

Dainerra said:


> that is the majority of most people I've met - a dog is a dog is a dog. you decide what you want it to look like, then go pick one out. If you do want something specific, like a beagle for hunting rabbits, then you take the first beagle that you find. if it doesn't work out, drop it off at the pound (or just shoot it) and get another


 The majority of people you have met dump dogs at the pound or shoot them?


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## Dainerra

a lot, yeah. where I grew up, if you got tired of a dog you did one of 3 things...

if you were a "softie" you took the dog out and dumped it at the side of the road because he'd find a new home.

if you were medium softie, you took the dog to the pound. Basically considered 50/50 that it would either get a new home or be put to sleep.

if you were "normal" you took the dog out and shot it coz, geez! it's just a freakin' dog. 

hunting dogs that wouldn't hunt, dogs that chased livestock/deer, dogs that were "annoying" were almost always shot. In WV, it's the law that any dog seen chasing deer will be shot on sight. Same goes for harassing livestock.

ETA: need to say, I don't fit in well because of how I treat my dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99

Dainerra said:


> a lot, yeah. where I grew up, if you got tired of a dog you did one of 3 things...
> 
> if you were a "softie" you took the dog out and dumped it at the side of the road because he'd find a new home.
> 
> if you were medium softie, you took the dog to the pound. Basically considered 50/50 that it would either get a new home or be put to sleep.
> 
> if you were "normal" you took the dog out and shot it coz, geez! it's just a freakin' dog.
> 
> hunting dogs that wouldn't hunt, dogs that chased livestock/deer, dogs that were "annoying" were almost always shot. In WV, it's the law that any dog seen chasing deer will be shot on sight. Same goes for harassing livestock.
> 
> ETA: need to say, I don't fit in well because of how I treat my dogs.


You don't fit in because u do none of those 3? Don't worry I am right there with you.


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## lcht2

sagelfn said:


> I've seen some posts on here lately where people think just because they have two pure bred GSDs that they love they have the right to breed them...also even two mutts. So without attacking any individuals on whats already happened I'd like to hear both sides reasoning as to what dogs should be bred or not bred.


 
lets put it this way...if every dog owner didnt, we wouldnt have thousand of homeless pets wondering the streets today.


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## EchoGSD

Here is Michigan all dog owners have the "right" to breed. Whether they are doing it for the right reasons (ie, to improve the breed) or not is an entirely different matter.


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## mazza

This is a subject very close to my heart. Some people think having any kind of dog makes them an expert and I for one do not think that just because you have any animal that automatically gives you the right to breed infact it makes me very angry just thinking about it


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## Brighthorizondogs

When I think of breeding rights, I think of the difference between full or limitted AKC registration. If you have full registration then you have breeding rights. If you have limitted you do not. I am of the opinion if you have limited papers or none, then you shouldn't be breeding that dog. Also just because you have full registration doesn't mean yopu should breed the dog either. Although it is a free country and you can do whatever you want with your property, I feel the breeder is the one who gives you rights to breed a dog. If a breeder didn't want you to breed a dog when you tell them that is your intention then they wouldn't sell it to you or if you got a dog and didn't tell them, if they don't want it bred then they will give you limitted papers. Some places you must advertise unregistered pups as mixes even though they are pure and they cannot be represented as such, pure without papers that is. Mutts should not be bred. There are enough mutts in this world dying every day because they don't have a home. There is no reason to bring more mutts into this world. Improving a breed is one thing but breeding mutts has nothing to do with improving anything, it is just bringing more mutts into the world. Many times the people breeding mutts are just trying to make money. IMO all mutts should be altered.


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## Brighthorizondogs

selzer said:


> It does make me nervous when people are out there to "better the breed." The breed is ok. We have a standard, there are several standards, if people would just breed to the standard, and breed for balance, proper size, and temperament, instead of extreme angles, size, or over the top drives.


 The term better the breed usually refers to sticking to breed standard or origin and traits. If the breeder isn't doing this then they aren't trying to better the breed. They are trying to change the breed. There are some breeders that are breed for health instead of standard in some breeds with serious health problems like pugged nosed breeds. Many breeders are favoring a slightly longer nose which allows better sinus cavity and the dog is healthier. So in some cases sticking to the standard is seriously impacting the health of some breeds. Though it does seem like some breeds with the most issues are becoming less common. It has been a while since I've seen a pure english bulldog anywhere except a show. Though this has probably gone off topic. The biggest problem is with some breeds the standard needs to change to encourage healthier offspring, not ones that just look pretty.


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## Jessiewessie99

Brighthorizondogs said:


> When I think of breeding rights, I think of the difference between full or limitted AKC registration. If you have full registration then you have breeding rights. If you have limitted you do not. I am of the opinion if you have limited papers or none, then you shouldn't be breeding that dog. Also just because you have full registration doesn't mean yopu should breed the dog either. Although it is a free country and you can do whatever you want with your property, I feel the breeder is the one who gives you rights to breed a dog. If a breeder didn't want you to breed a dog when you tell them that is your intention then they wouldn't sell it to you or if you got a dog and didn't tell them, if they don't want it bred then they will give you limitted papers. Some places you must advertise unregistered pups as mixes even though they are pure and they cannot be represented as such, pure without papers that is. Mutts should not be bred. There are enough mutts in this world dying every day because they don't have a home. There is no reason to bring more mutts into this world. Improving a breed is one thing but breeding mutts has nothing to do with improving anything, it is just bringing more mutts into the world. Many times the people breeding mutts are just trying to make money. IMO all mutts should be altered.


Its not just mutts, there are also TONS of purebreds in shelters also due to BYBs and puppy mills. So basically its all kinds of dogs, not just mutts.


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## Elliehanna

when I think of breeding rights I think of a dog proven to breed, like a pet should not be bred, but a really good Search and Rescue dog, sure, a really good hog dog yea, an agility dog, a dog that has been titled in something is my main thoughts if I would ever breed (which is very unlikely, I would not be able to stand a female going through every heat that it would take for her to become titled in something) I think if its bred for a purpose then there is the right, it its bred because "I want my children to see the metrical of life" watch animal planet, don't bring dogs into the world because of a learning experience for children.


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## selzer

You can get your dog titled in something in a weekend. Or your bitch. All of my adult bitches are titled in something and were intact when they were titled. Most of them were titled in a weekend. It is not really a good excuse not to work a dog. 

But Heidi has two legs of her RA and then went into heat, and then was bred, may be pregnant. If she is, she will finish in Cleveland, if she isn't she may finish in Canfield. So it does put a damper on things. 

But it is hoped that breeding dogs ARE pets 98% of the time. Maybe a SAR dog does that 5% of their time. The rest of the time, they are inside hanging out in the AC, playing with the cats and children. 

The reason so many dogs are in shelters, purebred dogs -- still only 25% of the dogs in shelters, is not BYBs or puppy mills. It is irresponsible owners. Otherwise 75% of the dogs in shelters would be pure-breds. BYBs and puppy mills are out for cash. They are not specifically breeding mutts. Sometimes accidents and some designer dogs, but the majority are breeding pedigreed dogs. So if they are the bulk of the problem, the shelters would be 75% full of purebreds and only 25% or less mixed breed dogs. 

Any argument except breeding for keeping a purebred dog intact is legitimate for mixes. You cannot say that you want to increase your GSD's longevity so you are not spaying or neutering, and at the same time speutering your mongrel. When all is said or done, dogs are dogs, and should all be treated with the same care. 

We have always fixed our mongrels, but that was back when we believed it would make them live longer and be healthier. If I owned a mongrel today, I would not spay or neuter. But I would not breed it either. And I can ensure that it does not happen. I take it that not everyone can.


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## Jessiewessie99

Alot of the dogs in shelters are purebreds and mixes. Also another reason dogs end up in shelters is because, especially in this economy, a family may have to give up their beloved dog because the have to move into a new apartment, or they have to sell their house and rent one and the landlord's rules or apartment rules will not allow certain dog breeds because they are "vicious" or they only allow dogs of a certain weight.


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## DJEtzel

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Alot of the dogs in shelters are purebreds and mixes. Also another reason dogs end up in shelters is because, especially in this economy, a family may have to give up their beloved dog because the have to move into a new apartment, or they have to sell their house and rent one and the landlord's rules or apartment rules will not allow certain dog breeds because they are "vicious" or they only allow dogs of a certain weight.


Technically, ALL dogs in shelthers are purebreds or mixes. 

And yes, I've got to agree on the fact that a lot of peope have to abandon dogs because of the economy. Last week we had a family surrender 5 dogs because their house was forclosed on and they had nowhere to live with them. 

Unfortunately, things happen, though in my frame of mind, I still think this is irresponsible pet ownership and could have been avoided. They obviously didn't have their finances in order and could have done many things to get a new job to support their pets if they really loved them, but didn't. 

Among the dogs were the mother and father of two 8week old puppies- a pitbull and a apbt/beagle mix, and a 2 y/o german rottweiler with severe hip dysplasia. All intact. The rott is a wonderful guy though, very friendly.


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## selzer

I don't know. It is easy to think that way when you are working away, but when you have been unemployed for a year and a half, you have to have had to dig into many reserves. So that even a family who plans for possible pitfalls, you may not plan for 18 months of unemployment. 

So I understand it happens. That I do not hold against people as much as those that give them up for any convenient reason.


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## DJEtzel

selzer said:


> I don't know. It is easy to think that way when you are working away, but when you have been unemployed for a year and a half, you have to have had to dig into many reserves. So that even a family who plans for possible pitfalls, you may not plan for 18 months of unemployment.
> 
> So I understand it happens. That I do not hold against people as much as those that give them up for any convenient reason.


I definitley don't hold it against people as much as those that give them up for practical reasons either, and I think you're right. It's easier to think this way when you have a job, money, and everything's going well. 

I know I would hate for people to bash me if I gave up my dogs in their best interest because I absolutely could not care for them anymore.


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## Jessiewessie99

Sometimes unemployment just hits them and the loss of their home hits them. You have to at least give the people credit for giving their dog to a shelter or giving it to a friend instead of just abandoning the dog on the side of the road.

Thank god my shelter has a program where if the owner is in some financial trouble or other personal issues, the shelter will take the dog into their care(put it with a foster family) and then once the owner can get back on their feet they give the dog back. Its called the Animal Safety Net. I don't know if many shelters have this, they also have a program where if the owner becomes really ill or passes away, they will re-home the dog.


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## Brighthorizondogs

When I look in the local shelters for purebreds there are very few. Pure GSD seem to almost strictly be in breed specific rescues. When I look for standard poodles, which is the breed I'm going to be breeding, there are very few. I know for a fact there are lots to BYB breeding std poodles around yet there isn't a problem of them in shelters. Maybe despite being BYB they are being responsible and taking them back if they cannot be kept. Every breeder I talked to including the ones that were more byb took their dogs back if you couldn't keep them. There are a lot of smaller poodles and doodles in breed rescues, much more when compared to GSD. So I think it really depends on where you live. It sometimes seems like the rest of the country's problems with dog over population gets stuffed down our throats as a reason to pay $300-400 for dogs imported from other places. I cannot be convinced that the problem is mostly breeders of purebreds when most of our shelters are no-kill and usually not full. Cats are another story but dogs aren't a huge problem. There also aren't many puppies in the shelters unless they've been imported from other parts of the country. While I feel bad for the little puppies, these groups profiting off the poor pups should be working towards more spay/neuter programs. When I lived down south, people seemed to know having mutt puppies wasn't going to make them any money other than maybe a couple bucks if lucky. They just didn't want to spend the money to get their pets spayed/neutered. Shelters would also adopt out dogs without altering, that doesn't happen here. They are spay and neutering them as soon as they hit 12 weeks old here and then finding homes. I don't agree with that young but at least it is done. There was a place that required a refundable deposit but $25 is hardly enough for something that costs over $100. The pound near my sister in ohio gives a certificate to have it done. So the problem is mostly with people who get dogs and don't bother to alter their dogs and the other is puppy mills. Then there are people who just don't want unpredictable mutts from these dogs. What I mean by unpredictable is you can only guess at what their temperaments will be like and it is really hard to know what diseases they are prone to since you don't know the breed. Saying mixes are healthier is a myth, that can be just as sick as a purebred depending on what the mix is. Some of the designer breeds are healthier than their pure counterparts, puggles come to mind. The noses aren't pushed in like the pugs so they are healthier. However selective breeding is always the key to ended up with healthier crossbreeds. A mutt is a dog of unknown breed heritage, a crossbreed is offspring of known breed heritage like a puggle or doodle. I don't agree with all designer breeds but I do agree some have purpose. Remember almost all breeds have at one time been some sort of crossbreed at some point. It is the first steps in creating a new breed. There are some working towards making the labradoodle a breed. Chinooks are a breed that not too long ago was made from a mastiff dog mixed with GSD and husky among other breeds. They are now UKC and working on AKC. So every breed starts somewhere. Maybe some day breeders will get together and work towards getting some of these doodles to become breeds but it is going to take a lot of work. Right now they are just popular pets.


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## Juta

Unfortunately, I believe, that no not everyone should be allowed to breed, but the same I believe is true for people. JUst because you can, doesn't mean you are competent to breed.
In this country you need a license to catch a fish, but no license to have puppies or kids 
But that's just my penny's worth


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## selzer

In Ohio, if you have dogs for the purpose of hunting or breeding you do need a kennel license. But no one enforces it. 

In Ohio you need to register your dog in the county, but unless the dog warden is called for another reason to your home or your dog is picked up, you will not be penalized for not purchasing the license. 

In Ohio you must have your dog on lead or under your immediate control, ie heeling off lead or hunting with your dog. But people move out into the country and think their dogs can just roam around. 

We have lots of laws. You may not even KNOW what laws there are. You can make up laws about who should and who should not breed. But if you are not going to enforce it, then you are only hurting the law-abiding citizens (who probably would do just fine breeding).

Puppy mills are in business because of the demand for puppies. If everyone stopped buying dogs on the internet and in pet stores and visited their local breeder or traveled to visit the breeder and pick up the pup, then there would not be a puppy mill problem. 

There are not an overage of puppies. Yes, people sometimes drop off litters with pups and sometimes they bust an operation and confiscate puppies, but shelters who try to get the puppies adopted or sent to where there is demand, they go somewhere other than being euthanized. 

Puppies are not the issue. 

Irresponsible owners, people who purchased their dog from a mall store, or got a pup from a free puppy sign, decide after a number of months that dog ownership isn't all he thought it would be, and dumps the dog. The dog is not an untrained, unsocialized, energetic and sometimes abused young dog who does not have a ton of people wanting him. 

If they made half the effort to go after dead-beat dog owners that they make going after the evil money grubbing breeders, it would not be so bad. 

For that matter, why is it that it is perfectly ok for it to be all about the money when it comes to PURCHASING a puppy. When they e-mail me, first question, how much? FINE. If I am out of your price range there is no point in either of us wasting time.

But with buyers it IS all about the money. They want A, B, C, D, E, F, AND G, but they want to pay no more than $500???? Good luck fella, let me know if you find one. 

Better yet, when something goes wrong, the buyer is quick to say, I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! whether their contract provides them that or not. And usually that they want to keep the dog, and maybe make the breeder pay for the dog's veterinary expenses. And unless the breeder does all of the above they are BAD a BYB a PUPPY MILL, etc.

But if a breeder says, "PAY ME", he is a money grubbing scoundrel. 

If they pass the laws that so many people seem to want when it comes to who should breed, who should not, what guidlines, what care, what the breeder's responsibilities should be before and after the sale, etc., then none of us would be able to buy a dog ever again. Large breeders and small breeders would be out of business, and only the rich breeders would remain. Dog ownership would be once again reserved for only the rich.


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## Jessiewessie99

Brighthorizondogs said:


> When I look in the local shelters for purebreds there are very few. Pure GSD seem to almost strictly be in breed specific rescues. When I look for standard poodles, which is the breed I'm going to be breeding, there are very few. I know for a fact there are lots to BYB breeding std poodles around yet there isn't a problem of them in shelters. Maybe despite being BYB they are being responsible and taking them back if they cannot be kept. Every breeder I talked to including the ones that were more byb took their dogs back if you couldn't keep them. There are a lot of smaller poodles and doodles in breed rescues, much more when compared to GSD. So I think it really depends on where you live. It sometimes seems like the rest of the country's problems with dog over population gets stuffed down our throats as a reason to pay $300-400 for dogs imported from other places. *I cannot be convinced that the problem is mostly breeders of purebreds when most of our shelters are no-kill and usually not full. Cats are another story* *but dogs aren't a huge problem. *There also aren't many puppies in the shelters unless they've been imported from other parts of the country. While I feel bad for the little puppies, these groups profiting off the poor pups should be working towards more spay/neuter programs. When I lived down south, people seemed to know having mutt puppies wasn't going to make them any money other than maybe a couple bucks if lucky. They just didn't want to spend the money to get their pets spayed/neutered. Shelters would also adopt out dogs without altering, that doesn't happen here. They are spay and neutering them as soon as they hit 12 weeks old here and then finding homes. I don't agree with that young but at least it is done. There was a place that required a refundable deposit but $25 is hardly enough for something that costs over $100. The pound near my sister in ohio gives a certificate to have it done. So the problem is mostly with people who get dogs and don't bother to alter their dogs and the other is puppy mills. Then there are people who just don't want unpredictable mutts from these dogs. What I mean by unpredictable is you can only guess at what their temperaments will be like and it is really hard to know what diseases they are prone to since you don't know the breed. Saying mixes are healthier is a myth, that can be just as sick as a purebred depending on what the mix is. Some of the designer breeds are healthier than their pure counterparts, puggles come to mind. The noses aren't pushed in like the pugs so they are healthier. However selective breeding is always the key to ended up with healthier crossbreeds. A mutt is a dog of unknown breed heritage, a crossbreed is offspring of known breed heritage like a puggle or doodle. I don't agree with all designer breeds but I do agree some have purpose. Remember almost all breeds have at one time been some sort of crossbreed at some point. It is the first steps in creating a new breed. There are some working towards making the labradoodle a breed. Chinooks are a breed that not too long ago was made from a mastiff dog mixed with GSD and husky among other breeds. They are now UKC and working on AKC. So every breed starts somewhere. Maybe some day breeders will get together and work towards getting some of these doodles to become breeds but it is going to take a lot of work. Right now they are just popular pets.


I have seen many puppies come into my shelter, people literally dump litters of puppies or litters of kittens. They also don't adopt out puppies til they are 8 weeks old, but the dog has to be spayed or neutered first.

Most of the problem is bybs, puppy mills and irresponsible owners. A byb will sell their dog and not have a contract for their puppy buyers to sign saying the buyer will spay/neuter their dog. And that leads to people who don't know how to own an intact dog and have puppies and then some of those puppies will have puppies and so on and so on.

Then comes puppy stores, such as Petland and Barkworks. They have puppies from puppy mills. And people think they are "saving" a dog from a puppy store, but they are really just giving the puppy mills a chance to breed more puppies and such. I don't if puppy stores even require you to get the pup spayed or neutered, so people get puppies and they don't fix them and then those puppies have puppies.

And I don't understand when you say "dogs aren't a huge problem".Can you please explain?Because there is a overpopulation issue with dogs and cats.


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## selzer

Where he lives it is not a big problem. 

My contract does not require people to spay or neuter. I have a page that tells the pros and cons to spay and neuter. It is up to the buyer to make that decision.

Personally, I have considered requiring people to keep their animal intact up to two years in order to have hips and elbows under warranty. If the long bones can continue to grow longer than nature intended if speutered before the growth plates close, then even 1/2 of an inch of growth might cause the ball and socket not to align the way nature intended. 

Instead, I leave the decision to spay/neuter up to the buyer. That in and of itself does not make someone a back yard breeder.


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## Brighthorizondogs

Jessiewessie99 said:


> And I don't understand when you say "dogs aren't a huge problem".Can you please explain?Because there is a overpopulation issue with dogs and cats.


 In the area where I live there isn't a huge problem of unwanted dogs. There are really good spay and neuter programs and any dog from a shelter or rescue is altered before they are adopted. Pet shops selling dogs are few and far between. There are a few puppy dealers but they aren't very popular. The closest shelter to me is almost primarily imported puppies from the south. Every week they fill the whole shelter with imports and they go fast. They don't usually help local dogs and cats. I recently found out that when a stray is surrendered it is sent to another shelter as this one will not house animals for the required 10 days for the town and then after 10 days vet and adopt them out. Instead another private shelter does this. Local towns do not have animal control shelters, strays that are picked up are brought to a private shelter where they are boarded for the holding period and then they become property of the shelter if not claimed so they can be prepared for adoption. There are a some AC shelters but they are also mostly no kill. I had a cat that wasn't mine but rescued it from a cruel situation, anyways I could keep it or its kitten. I asked the local shelter (importers) if they could take it as it didn't have a place to stay. They wanted $200 to take the cat because I didn't have any vet records and then would adopt it out for another $100. They took the kitten as a stray and sent it to the other rescue but refused the mommy. My friend took her for a few days while trying to find a place for her. She managed to remove a screen from a window and escaped. She was never seen again and we think a coyote might have got her. This is my distaste for them, they are too focused on bringing in dogs they can move fast and charge more for than helping local needy dogs and cats. They do the same with dogs, charge large surrender fees. Adult dogs don't fly out of there like puppies do. Other shelters are starting to follow suit and importing dogs also. How does emptying shelters in the south solve the problem down there? If there were spay/neuter programs down there with vets pushing it like up here, these shelters would be out the huge adoption fees they charge for these pups and many might actually shut down or become cat only. 

I bet you didn't know that some rescues will allow dogs to breed so they can sell the puppies. I've talked to someone that once worked in one. She said it was horrible as they would do that to bring in more money since they can charge more for the pups. This happens more often that you would expect. There are also shelters that are "rescuing" pups by buying them from puppy mills. There is a wide spread problem with importing as I said some shelters will allow dogs to breed before or during transport to increase the money they bring in. Then they have the sad story of the poor momma dog that no one wanted and arrived pregnant to get people to donate. 

The overpopulation problem in this country is a combination of problems. Biggest is puppy mills and people who either don't care or cannot afford to alter their dogs, corrupt rescues also contribute. Then the BYB are a smaller portion of the problem. Most BYB I've talked to do care about their dogs and pups. They have seemed to be more like hobby breeders but not quite there. When you have an area where the majority of dogs are altered and shelters that bring up hundreds of dogs every yr from areas with problems, how can you blame the problem on BYB when they still exist in the same areas? The shelters are bringing the pups up to meet the demand for puppies here and the adults aren't all ending back in shelters. Usually ones that develop behavior or health issues end up back in shelters as adults. Lately there has been a lot of financial hardship and that has become an addition cause of homeless dogs. I have noticed that many people are trying to find them homes themselves before resorting to surrendering to shelters. Some backyard breeders I have talked to would take their pup back if they were asked to. The problem is people don't ask. Some because then they couldn't charge an "adoption fee". Someone wanted an $800 "adoption fee" for a purebred puppy they couldn't deal with anymore and wanted what they paid for it 2 months ago. I told the person dogs are like cars, once you drive a new one off the lot it loses value. You can almost never expect to get the same amount for puppy you paid top dollar for which wasn't from exceptional bloodlines. I told her I'd give her a couple hundred and she turned it down. Oh well I hope the puppy continued to terrorize her.


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## Jessiewessie99

Brighthorizondogs said:


> In the area where I live there isn't a huge problem of unwanted dogs. There are really good spay and neuter programs and any dog from a shelter or rescue is altered before they are adopted. Pet shops selling dogs are few and far between. There are a few puppy dealers but they aren't very popular. The closest shelter to me is almost primarily imported puppies from the south. Every week they fill the whole shelter with imports and they go fast. They don't usually help local dogs and cats. I recently found out that when a stray is surrendered it is sent to another shelter as this one will not house animals for the required 10 days for the town and then after 10 days vet and adopt them out. Instead another private shelter does this. Local towns do not have animal control shelters, strays that are picked up are brought to a private shelter where they are boarded for the holding period and then they become property of the shelter if not claimed so they can be prepared for adoption. There are a some AC shelters but they are also mostly no kill. I had a cat that wasn't mine but rescued it from a cruel situation, anyways I could keep it or its kitten. I asked the local shelter (importers) if they could take it as it didn't have a place to stay. They wanted $200 to take the cat because I didn't have any vet records and then would adopt it out for another $100. They took the kitten as a stray and sent it to the other rescue but refused the mommy. My friend took her for a few days while trying to find a place for her. She managed to remove a screen from a window and escaped. She was never seen again and we think a coyote might have got her. This is my distaste for them, they are too focused on bringing in dogs they can move fast and charge more for than helping local needy dogs and cats. They do the same with dogs, charge large surrender fees. Adult dogs don't fly out of there like puppies do. Other shelters are starting to follow suit and importing dogs also. How does emptying shelters in the south solve the problem down there? If there were spay/neuter programs down there with vets pushing it like up here, these shelters would be out the huge adoption fees they charge for these pups and many might actually shut down or become cat only.
> 
> I bet you didn't know that some rescues will allow dogs to breed so they can sell the puppies. I've talked to someone that once worked in one. She said it was horrible as they would do that to bring in more money since they can charge more for the pups. This happens more often that you would expect. There are also shelters that are "rescuing" pups by buying them from puppy mills. There is a wide spread problem with importing as I said some shelters will allow dogs to breed before or during transport to increase the money they bring in. Then they have the sad story of the poor momma dog that no one wanted and arrived pregnant to get people to donate.
> 
> The overpopulation problem in this country is a combination of problems. Biggest is puppy mills and people who either don't care or cannot afford to alter their dogs, corrupt rescues also contribute. Then the BYB are a smaller portion of the problem. Most BYB I've talked to do care about their dogs and pups. They have seemed to be more like hobby breeders but not quite there. When you have an area where the majority of dogs are altered and shelters that bring up hundreds of dogs every yr from areas with problems, how can you blame the problem on BYB when they still exist in the same areas? The shelters are bringing the pups up to meet the demand for puppies here and the adults aren't all ending back in shelters. Usually ones that develop behavior or health issues end up back in shelters as adults. Lately there has been a lot of financial hardship and that has become an addition cause of homeless dogs. I have noticed that many people are trying to find them homes themselves before resorting to surrendering to shelters. Some backyard breeders I have talked to would take their pup back if they were asked to. The problem is people don't ask. Some because then they couldn't charge an "adoption fee". Someone wanted an $800 "adoption fee" for a purebred puppy they couldn't deal with anymore and wanted what they paid for it 2 months ago. I told the person dogs are like cars, once you drive a new one off the lot it loses value. You can almost never expect to get the same amount for puppy you paid top dollar for which wasn't from exceptional bloodlines. I told her I'd give her a couple hundred and she turned it down. Oh well I hope the puppy continued to terrorize her.


I live in So Cal, we got hoarders, BYBs, Puppy stores. We got half of the dogs in shelters purebreds and half are mixes. My shelter doesn'y breed the dogs that come in.


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## holland

I would hope that most shelters and rescues try to ensure that dogs are spayed and nuetered before they are placed


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## White German Shepherd

I think the question is weather or not show dog owners with HEALTHY Dogs confirmed by vets have the right to breed. Some owners may think their dog is fine, when its not.


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## Jessiewessie99

White German Shepherd said:


> I think the question is weather or not show dog owners with HEALTHY Dogs confirmed by vets have the right to breed. Some owners may think their dog is fine, when its not.


Just because your dog is healthy doesn't mean you should breed. Just because your dog is show quality doesn't mean you should breed either.


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## White German Shepherd

I agree but i was saying that people should atleast check if their dog is healthy enough to be bred. I do not think you can stop people from breeding. Its just like drugs, you make a law banning them, and people still do it


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## Jessiewessie99

White German Shepherd said:


> I agree but i was saying that people should atleast check if their dog is healthy enough to be bred. I do not think you can stop people from breeding. Its just like drugs, you make a law banning them, and people still do it


I wouldn't compare dogs to drugs.


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## Mrs.K

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I wouldn't compare dogs to drugs.


She doesn't compare dogs to drugs. 

She is saying that you can't keep people from breeding their dogs, regardless of law or not. It doesn't matter what you do there will be always people that'll do it anyway which is like with alcoholics, drug addicts, street racers, burglars and so many other things. 

They will do it anyway regardless of what you do or say. Even if you ban them from keeping a dog. Who is going to check if they have one? You really think they follow them 24/7 to see if they are going to a barn where they breed 10 litters at a time?


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## PupperLove

Uh, unfortunately anyone who adopts an intact male or female has a right to breed them. Whether or not they SHOULD breed is a completley different story. 

First of all there are way too many dogs in this world already. Second of all, certain dogs, MOST dogs, just should not reproduce. It's unfotruante when someone who has a female just wants a male or vice versa, to use to make puppies. I have some friends who have a female lab (personally I don't believe she's even purebred). They came over and said "too bad you got him neutered (our lab) because then we could have puppies!" The mentality of some people just blows my mind! I am not a breeder but I am very passionate about those dedicated to imporving the health and overall "dog", and preserving what a dog was bred for and what it excells in. I get so mad when people just breed for fun.


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## chocolat

I want to know what people's defintion of a "puppy mill" is? I would also like to know why you believe that the dogs that are in shelters are the fault of "puppy mills" ?


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## onyx'girl

A puppy mill is about bucks, plain and simple~ not the breed they are producing and keeping to the standard of the breed. Health, temperament-who cares?!
Kennel/stacked cage raised with little stimulation and socialization when young. So the pup learns to eat poop, not house-train easily, is a fear aggressive, unhealthy physical and mental dog...but was soooo cute in the pet shop.
BYB's are a step up, but situation varies from "breeder" to "breeder".

Dogs in shelters are the blame of the OWNERS, they bought the pup from a miller and supported the miller to breed another litter, or didn't properly research the breeder and ended up with a fear biter, or didn't train it in a positive way, ending up with a fear biter, peee'r ect. If a miller has pups they can't place and dump at a shelter, they are to blame.
But _everything_ a miller does is a detriment to the breed they are producing...they should be BANNED from breeding if they cannot conform to humane laws and regulations. 
Commercial kennels with big names may fall into this, designer dog breeders and those that pump out litter after litter without looking at the progeny they've produced, or accepting responsibility for the poor dogs that have issues from their kennel. They charge big bucks, so in some buyers eyes that makes them reputable. Or others charge small prices catering to those that won't pay money for a reputably bred dog. Either way, it is very sad...it all boils down to doing your homework before you purchase a companion that will be with you for the next decade+.


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## chocolat

onyx'girl said:


> A puppy mill is about bucks, plain and simple~ not the breed they are producing and keeping to the standard of the breed. Health, temperament-who cares?!
> Kennel/stacked cage raised with little stimulation and socialization when young. So the pup learns to eat poop, not house-train easily, is a fear aggressive, unhealthy physical and mental dog...but was soooo cute in the pet shop.
> BYB's are a step up, but situation varies from "breeder" to "breeder".
> 
> *Dogs in shelters are the blame of the OWNERS*, they bought the pup from a miller and supported the miller to breed another litter, or didn't properly research the breeder and ended up with a fear biter, or didn't train it in a positive way, ending up with a fear biter, peee'r ect. If a miller has pups they can't place and dump at a shelter, they are to blame.
> But _everything_ a miller does is a detriment to the breed they are producing...they should be BANNED from breeding if they cannot conform to humane laws and regulations.
> +.


So, if this is what one is, how can someone judge and regulate them? What law can you ceate that will prevent this?
For example, if a large breeder took great care of their dogs, did health tests, didnt stack their dogs in cages etc.. and yet sold to pet stores and raised them commercially, are they then still a puppy miller?
Who(and how) will decide who is and who isnt a puppy miller?

I think everyone has made one great statement..it is irresponsible owners that dump dogs in shelters. They are the cause of "oops litters", letting dogs run loose, not finding a new home for their dog when they cant or wont keep it.
People who you call puppy millers tend to raise small breed, low shed, high in demand dogs not the kind often seen at shelters and when they are at shelters they are usually adopted quickly(unless they are old..er). It is the large breed, black hairy mixes or pit mixes hounds etc.. that suffer in shelters unwanted (and those guarding breeds like shepherds and rotts whom no one wants to get as an adult)
It isnt puppy millers, or breeders of most kind who are to blame. It is irresponsible owners..plain and simple


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## onyx'girl

I agree, the owners are to blame, but the millers need to be held to certain humane standards-of course, which reputable breeders will be affected by any laws/regulations/taxes~ because of the irresponsibility of the bad breeders. So the reputable breeders aren't for regulating. I can see their point.
If potential owners would do their homework(as I posted before) the millers would not be selling puppies, and profitting on what they produce. The demise of millers sits on the shoulders of buyers.
A reputable breeder would never, ever sell to a pet store to move their puppies. That motive puts them in the catagory of a miller, IMO.


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## selzer

I agree that it is irresponsible owners that are to blame. And, there are many laws on the books that cover neglect, abuse, and cruelty to animals. But by and far they are not enforced until the conditions are so deplorable that considerable suffering has taken place. 

While the problem lies with irresponsible owners, the puppy mills do play a part in this in that they generally have no say in who gets their dogs. The sell to pet stores and over the internet and to brokers. They do not screen potential buyers. They do not care enough about the dogs they produce to place them properly. And so, people walking by the pet store window in the mall who see the cute little puppy in the window, can go in on impulse and buy the dog on their credit card with no understanding at all about the breed, the lines, how big it will get, what it was bred for, and so forth. 

Yes, this is the new owner's responsibility, at the same time, we are not selling cars or computers. We are selling living, breathing animals with inteligence, personality, and a spirit that can be damanged by poor handling, neglect, and ignorance. I am referring to emotions, biddability, personality, etc when I say spirit -- whatever makes the dog an individual.

I define puppy mills as breeders with 1 bitch or hundreds of bitches, of one breed or many breeds, possibly mixes, living in deplorable conditions, specifically as a cash crop. Usually, these breeders are already violating scores of laws in how they keep their animals. Usually, these breeders do not want people to come to them for a dog, and use middle men, brokers or pet stores to actually sell the puppy. They are making money by selling high numbers of puppies, downloading them as early as possible, and spending little to nothing on their care.

BYBs range from poor to decent. Some do health testing, most love and care for their breeding animals. They generally sell their puppies themselves. For me, what makes them a BYB, is a lack of a plan. They generally breed to the best available dog they can without regard to what their bitch needs. They may have had an oopse, they may be breeding just the one time, they may be breeding a number of bitches, but are not breeding toward a goal, they are not holding back pups and breeding with a clear purpose. However, if you ask them, they may say, "old style and temperament" or "health and temperament" or any number of buzz words. They generally know very little about the dogs behind their dogs. 

I agree with onyx'girl, no reputable breeder will sell to a pet store. If we could just get that slogan across the country and into every household, we would have a chance of eliminating puppy mills all together.


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## chocolat

So, a breeder who takes great care of his 200 breeding dogs and sells direct is not a puppy miller, but the breeder with 10 dogs he takes great care of and sells to pet stores is a puppy miller?

There are only 2 type breeders...standard ones and sub standard ones. You are either meeting min standards of care or you arent(you can always exceed min of course) anything else is marketing. People who are into conformation shows, prefer a dog with a certain look and personality, someone wanting search and rescue dog may have different needs from one who needs a police style working dog...one man's pet is another man's washout. this is all marketing ..meeting demands of what a breeder and buyer want in a dog.
Sadly, ALL of us have fallen for a marketing ploy by extremist who want none of us to own pets of our choosing. By getting any of us to use phrases like "puppy miller" ,"back yard breeder", "hobby breeder" etc.. they manage to divide us all.
The sooner we learn to use phrases like "breeder" and "substandard breeder " the sooner we will all retain our ability to own the breeds of dogs we love and have them as pets or working companions.
Sorry this is a passionate subject of mine. You see posts on places like craigslist blaming any breeder for all the sin and dogs dying in shelters, yet in the same breath they will type words like"searching for purebred -----"
If it wasnt for breeders we wouldnt have recognizable breeds of any kind. There arent enough top notch breeders willing and able to meet the demands of the general public. While we may not be interested in buying a puppy raised in a commercial kennel, that doesnt mean commercial kennels are horrible places that no pet owner should buy from. That is unless of course, you want the hobby /show/working breeders to start producing enough puppies to keep up with demand? 
enforce the welfare/care laws we have. Encourage and educate for spaying and neutering of pets and in time you will find what the northeast has found a lack of pets in their shelters to the point not only do they bring them up from the south they import them from foreign countries


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## onyx'girl

Um....if the breeder is reputable, they wont have 200 dogs in their care, that is outragious, and anyone who buys from them is NOT doing their homework. 
Selling direct to whom?
Contracts must be in place as far as health/temperament and in the case of working dogs, titles/health tests should be achieved before full registration is granted to buyers. 

You are fairly new here as a poster, yet seem to support the unreputable or commercial type influence from the flavor of your posts.

This is a GSD board so my replies are with this breed in mind. The designer dog breeder or non-working dog breeder isn't in my peripheral. They are a whole different ball of wax and way to complicated to get deep into.

Does everyone have the right to breed?
NO, IMO as a prospective buyer, I will give my $$$ to the breeder who I feel deserves it to proceed with their already awesome program...they deserve it, where others fall short, or off the cliff. 
We all have a choice in where we purchase our next companion, and rescue is first choice, a reputable breeder #2 if I could have it my way.


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## showshepherds4me

I am very opposed to breeding dogs whose temperments have not been tested and aren"t "breed worthy". The Humane Society here in Milwaukee is beyond excellent. They have people lined up to adopt and they are very careful about placement. I also would never breed an untitled dog but that's just me. I also don't sell inexpensive pups and all my litters are pre-sold with deposits.


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## Raziel

I dont think so. I dont know ANYTHING about breeding dogs. My male is intact & have had MANY people ask to breed with him.
Just because 2 dogs look the same, doesnt mean you will have great puppies.
It takes alot of time & effort & reading to become a breeder.
They could have temperament problems & health problems.
Leave the breeding to the pros, please.


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## selzer

I cannot put a specific number of dogs one must own to make them a puppy mill. 

An individual may not be able to provide basic care and training for 200 dogs. But that individual may have family and staff. GSDs are not really dogs that do wonderful in a kennel environment. But if there was enough staff that each dog is actually worked each day, and the basic needs are taken care of, many of the dogs are on the road with professional handlers. Perhaps some of them are co-owned. 

I do not know. I would not call someone a puppy mill if the environment is good, the dogs are in good health and kept in top condition. I might call this a commercial breeder. 

But as for the other question, a person with ten dogs who sells to pet store, yes, that IS a puppy mill. 

The ONLY reason a breeder would allow an unknown individual to sell their puppy is if they really did not care where that puppy was going. If you do not care where the puppy is going, you are a puppy mill. 

Owning 200 dogs might not mean keeping or breeding 200 dogs. Some people co-own their puppies until the pups reach certain milestones, in order to protect them/whatever. Some of these dogs can be rescues, older dogs that the breeder has retired, but is keeping. Some may be puppies not yet sold.


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## chocolat

onyx'girl said:


> You are fairly new here as a poster, yet seem to support the unreputable or commercial type influence from the flavor of your posts.
> 
> .


So, if someone thinks of all angles they are a puppy miller?

This is exactly why i have a problem with the phrase and how easily it can be assigned to anyone we either dont like or dont agree with

No one here can agree as to what a puppy mill is yet we blame them for everything from poor bred dogs to dogs in shelters etc.. and yet we dont even agree on who "them " is

I dont support sub standard kennels. I don't support keeping and abusing dogs. I also dont support words that can be used against the very thing(dogs) that I love and enjoy most. Until there is a clear defintion of a "puppy mill" , we should not use the phrase otherwise, we may find US rather than THEM being called the puppy mill

substandard unprofessional kennels may be some reasons dogs are in shelters, but it isnt the biggest reason. and I agree everyone who owns a dog has the right to breed their dog because they own it(assuming they dont have a contract to not breed) but not all people should breed..themselves or their dogs!!


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## showshepherds4me

chocolat said:


> but not all people should breed..themselves or their dogs!!


 
Amen!!


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## Jessiewessie99

chocolat said:


> So, if someone thinks of all angles they are a puppy miller?
> 
> This is exactly why i have a problem with the phrase and how easily it can be assigned to anyone we either dont like or dont agree with
> 
> No one here can agree as to what a puppy mill is yet we blame them for everything from poor bred dogs to dogs in shelters etc.. and yet we dont even agree on who "them " is
> 
> I dont support sub standard kennels. I don't support keeping and abusing dogs. I also dont support words that can be used against the very thing(dogs) that I love and enjoy most. Until there is a clear defintion of a "puppy mill" , we should not use the phrase otherwise, we may find US rather than THEM being called the puppy mill
> 
> substandard unprofessional kennels may be some reasons dogs are in shelters, but it isnt the biggest reason. and I agree everyone who owns a dog has the right to breed their dog because they own it(assuming they dont have a contract to not breed) but not all people should breed..themselves or their dogs!!



No offense, but your posts are confusing me. Also since you are new here you shouldn't go around preaching that we should be following your definition and ways because there VERY GOOD RESPONSIBLE breeders and people who support VERY GOOD RESPONSIBLE breeders on here and people who are VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE of the breed.

Anyone who has 200 dogs seems kind of irresponsible to me. Puppy Mills and BYBs sell their dogs to puppy stores. Have you seen where the puppies Petland and Barkworks come from? They are Puppy Mills and BYBs and horrible ones too.

Anyone who is not breeding to better the breed, don't breed for certain goals(working dogs, search and rescue dogs, police and military dogs, show dogs) then you shouldn't be breeding. It takes alot of time, dedication, money to breed dogs. It is not a simple and easy thing as some think it to be.


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## selzer

Chocolat, I think you have a valid point about the danger of words, and lack of definition. 

But I think that we need to take the word and define it because HSUS and the AR people are not going to quit with what they have already made a household name. And THEY would pin it on everyone who sells a puppy. 

Puppy Mill and BYB are here to stay. Hobby breeder, Small breeder, Commercial Breeder, and Reputable Breeder are words that may hold, I do not know. 

If we just say "breeder" than puppy mills will definitely come to people's mind. I mean, in conversation, I might say that I was talking to Rushie's breeder the other day and... But then I would follow it up with Rushie's breeder has a small place and is a decent hobby breeder or some such baloney -- not that it isn't true, but we should not have to feel like we need to defend breeders if we have the audacity to have been associated with one.

I talked to someone who has her first litter of puppies today on the phone. I heard her defining her philosophies to me on the phone, and I thought, she is defending herself because she is hypervigilent about all the negativity there is with breeding.

Talk about being innocent until proven guilty. Not so with breeders. They are guilty until they can PROVE that they are not the slime of the earth. I do not necessarily think this is a good thing. 

For that matter, when did "Animal Shelter" replace "Dog Pound"?

And even with people purchasing from breeders, the term "adopt" is overriding "Buy."

There is a lot of very specific wording being bandied about, and it is for a specific end. It changes how we think about our critters. I love my dogs and challenge anyone to prove they love theirs more, but I try not to apply the terminology and its underlying feeling to my dogs. I do not think it is fair to make dogs into little humans, certainly not fair to the dogs.


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## chocolat

selzer said:


> Chocolat, I think you have a valid point about the danger of words, and lack of definition.
> 
> But I think that we need to take the word and define it because HSUS and the AR people are not going to quit with what they have already made a household name. And THEY would pin it on everyone who sells a puppy.
> 
> .


 
I so agree with you and have tried promoting this idea to people. We need a real clear defintion.
It is sad so many people must defend why they breed or even why they choose to purchase a purebred puppy rather than go to the pound and get one
I am active in all breed rescue and certainly promote and appreciate folks who get their dogs that way, but at the same time I am smart enough to know that not everyone wants an adult dog, or a dog of an unknown background and not every home is a suitable one for a rescued dog.
The current "fad" for many rescues is to take dogs from commercial kennels or puppy mills and then resell them under the guise of rescue. I mean, the public is so taken with this idea "rescue a dog" and that is what they want to do, but they dont want to give up their desire for a puppy(or adult) of a known background/breed. One shoudnt have to feel guilty just because you want a purebred puppy or adult.
I dont know all the answers. i just know that painting any breeder in a bad light without knowing the care level they give their dogs isnt the answer. I have known a wide variety of breeders, show, hobby, byb commercial and puppy mill I would just hate to loose the ability to have breeders(meaning ones who at least care properly for their animals) not be able to raise dogs. The moment you limit one group, you risk limiting all groups, and that could mean the end of it all for us


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## Jessiewessie99

chocolat said:


> I so agree with you and have tried promoting this idea to people. We need a real clear defintion.
> It is sad so many people must defend why they breed or even why they choose to purchase a purebred puppy rather than go to the pound and get one
> I am active in all breed rescue and certainly promote and appreciate folks who get their dogs that way, but at the same time I am smart enough to know that not everyone wants an adult dog, or a dog of an unknown background and not every home is a suitable one for a rescued dog.
> The current "fad" for many rescues is to take dogs from commercial kennels or puppy mills and then resell them under the guise of rescue. I mean, the public is so taken with this idea "rescue a dog" and that is what they want to do, but they dont want to give up their desire for a puppy(or adult) of a known background/breed. One shoudnt have to feel guilty just because you want a purebred puppy or adult.
> I dont know all the answers. i just know that painting any breeder in a bad light without knowing the care level they give their dogs isnt the answer. I have known a wide variety of breeders, show, hobby, byb commercial and puppy mill I would just hate to loose the ability to have breeders(meaning ones who at least care properly for their animals) not be able to raise dogs. The moment you limit one group, you risk limiting all groups, and that could mean the end of it all for us



I volunteer at a shelter and we have purebred dogs all the time. Usually if someone wants to go to a breeder I understand( they want it for schutzhund, to show, to work or some other dog sport or dog competition). I don't get mad at them. And rescues don't sell dogs they adopt them out, if not then they aren't really a rescue.


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## chocolat

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I volunteer at a shelter and we have purebred dogs all the time. Usually if someone wants to go to a breeder I understand( they want it for schutzhund, to show, to work or some other dog sport or dog competition). I don't get mad at them. *And rescues don't sell dogs they adopt them out, if not then they aren't really a rescue*.


 
really what is the difference?

you adopt out children- you sell dogs
unless you are giving dogs away for free, you are exchanging money for good..that equals a sale. How you complete your sale is your choice(ie some application)


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## Jessiewessie99

chocolat said:


> really what is the difference?
> 
> you adopt out children- you sell dogs
> unless you are giving dogs away for free, you are exchanging money for good..that equals a sale. How you complete your sale is your choice(ie some application)


You aren't really buying. Yes you pay money, and you have to pay money to adopt a kid. The cost covers the dog's shots, their medical care, spay/neutering and part of it goes to the shelter to help take care of the dogs in their care(some of it is a donation). You fill out an application. Thats how most if not all rescues and adoptions are.


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## selzer

JessieWessie, there is little difference between a breeder and a rescue. A breeder is selling a dog for more money -- usually, and for that the new owner has papers, possibly a warrantee, their expertise, background information on the sire and dam, including health certifications and the like. 

For rescue dogs/puppies, the rescues do not need to trial or tital their dogs, they can feed junk food, they do not need to provide papers, or maintain at least the standards of the registering agency, they do not have to provide much of anything really. And they charge a fee for the dog. 

Some how one must find a reputable rescue, because there are puppy mills masquerading as rescues out there. Their dogs do not have to be purebreds. They do not have to be well kept or healthy. They have some not for profit listing for tax reasons. And they can accept donations. 

No one has banged on my door and offered me a donation. As for profit, you have to be really good or really bad to turn a profit. 

When you think about it, rescues are charging off all of their expenses, in home office, heat, lights, food, supplies, etc, etc, etc, just like breeders who are run as a business. So even if at the end of the day, the donations and fees do not cover the total of the expenses, they COULD still be better off for selling the dogs. 

A "rescue" recently had puppies up at petsmart that were approximately four weeks old!!! They were allowing people to carry them around the store!!! They had several different litters. The rescue - person informed me that the puppies had shots so they were perfectly safe. She knew the shots were effective because she administered them herself. 

I am sorry, but this was a breeder with a rescue name and tax identity. These people are applauded while breeders are scorned. 

They say "adopted" we say "sold." It is the same thing, really.


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## chocolat

Jessiewessie99 said:


> You aren't really buying. Yes you pay money, and you have to pay money to adopt a kid. The cost covers the dog's shots, their medical care, spay/neutering and part of it goes to the shelter to help take care of the dogs in their care(some of it is a donation). You fill out an application. Thats how most if not all rescues and adoptions are.


 
breeders are simply recouping expesnes they have in their dogs..the fee you pay to 'adopt" one of their puppies covers, shots, wormings, health tests, possibly fees to gain titles on parents, costs to keep parents and to care for future litters etc

rescues and shelters use the word 'adopt" to make dogs into humans in little fur coats and appeal to people's human side. at the end of the day..the dog was sold, your fee just may be different than a breeders fee, but it is still a fee


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## Jessiewessie99

chocolat said:


> breeders are simply recouping expesnes they have in their dogs..the fee you pay to 'adopt" one of their puppies covers, shots, wormings, health tests, possibly fees to gain titles on parents, costs to keep parents and to care for future litters etc
> 
> *rescues and shelters use the word 'adopt" to make dogs into humans in little fur coats and appeal to people's human side.* at the end of the day..the dog was sold, your fee just may be different than a breeders fee, but it is still a fee


 please explain that statement. Sorry it sounds pretty silly because I don't think they try to make the dogs into humans. Shelters and rescues do get puppies and litters of puppies. Well mine does but that because people bring them in or AC brings them off the streets or from people who can't care for them.


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## chocolat

why do you think they use the word 'adopt" rather than "sell"?


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## onyx'girl

Even some breeders use the word adopt...

I know the SPCA rescue in my area profits from the dogs they _sell_... they pull from shelters and charge at least $300 per dog, puppies/purebreds more $. Seniors may be a bit less.
That more than covers the medical and most dogs are in foster homes, cared for by volunteers, donated food etc. The did just reduce rates due to the MI economy and more dogs are being owner surrendered. This rescue is not a "police" type SPCA, we have an AC for that.
Of course they are saving lives and just built a beautiful new shelter to house the animals they pull from AC's all over the country.
There is a gorgeous GSD there right now! http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16558493


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## Hunther's Dad

*Rant Alert*

Selzer, thank you for saying what you did, and for saying it well. I've lost a couple of "friends" for having the AUDACITY to buy a purebred dog instead of "rescuing" a dog. VP Biden could probably attest to this; he caught a lot of flak from the PETA/HSUS crowd for buying a purebred GSD rather than going to a rescue organization. It's his choice; he and his family are the ones who have to live with the dog, not a group of political operatives trying to use him for their own purposes.

Chocolat hit one out of the park, too:



> *rescues and shelters use the word 'adopt" to make dogs into humans in little fur coats and appeal to people's human side.* at the end of the day..the dog was sold, your fee just may be different than a breeders fee, but it is still a fee


In the Bay Area, that's _exactly_ what happens in some dog training/owning circles. You can't use the word "own," either; you're the dog's "guardian" or "person," not its "owner." Political correctness run amok. They are not "furkids," i.e. furry little children. They are dogs.

And please do not misunderstand me. Those who work in rescues and shelters are doing valuable, much needed work. If they can match dogs to people and make both happy, that is fantastic. I own one Aussie type mutt that somebody left in a box in front of the local Taco Bell at six weeks of age. Funny how those ex "friends" would always seem to forget that fact.

(climbs down off soap box...)


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## selzer

People who are literally snatching dogs out of the mouth of gas champers or away from heart sticks, or even just out of a small, smelly, noisy, cramped pound; and place these dogs in a well-run foster situation; temperament test and provide basic training for these dogs, and spend time socializing them and giving them time to reveal that they do not like tall men in hats or little girls that run and scream; provide medical care to fix any minor issues and get a handle on the major issues; and actually spend time and energy talking and screening people and matching them up with the best dog for them -- THESE RESCUES SHOULD BE SUPPORTED AND APPLAUDED. 

But just like many breeders hit some of the bases, many rescues only hit some of the bases. And just like some breeders are foul, money grubbing idiots, some rescues are breeding their "rescued" dogs to sell the puppies. They have and use their not for profit tax status, but at the end of the day, they may come closer to a profit than many dog breeders do. 

And these people can do so with the honor of the buying public, and without putting anything into the breeding animals, or the puppies. 

When folks come back saying the dog has HD or ED or something, the crappy rescue does not have to rethink their breeding program or make any compensation. They do not HAVE to take the dog back either. The owner of the dog understands it is a rescue and they should expect that the pup may have issues and be prepared to pay for a series of health problems. And the same is true for behavior problems. If I had a nickel for every time that someone blames their dog's behavior on the fact that it was rescued, well....

The new owner is blissfully ignorant, as the scoundrel skips laughing all the way to the bank, with money for puppies that they are selling AND money from donations. 

And on this big long site, there are no thread stickies about "Red Flags for questionable rescues" Or, "how to find a reputable rescue."

For so long we applauded HSUS for sticking up for the poor animals, working with persisitance to improve the situation, and everyone who supported them were the good guys without question. Rescues are getting the same type of blind loyalty. With their terminology: rescue, adopt, fee, guardian, etc. They are using very human terms and using our inner most desire to help out those in need. To question their wonderfulness shows us up as cold-hearted, evil, someone with an agenda, someone who is feeling threatened by them.

But the fact is, we are not threatened at all by a well-run reputable rescue. I would not mind if a rescue charged $50 up to $500 or even more for their services. Some people are drawn to go for an older pup or dog, they like the idea of giving an animal a second chance, and they like the idea that they can get a good report on what the dog knows, does not know, and what/who he likes, does not like. 

But bad rescues are perhaps more foul than bad breeders. Because the whole thing is a lie. They are preying on the goodness in people.


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## EJQ

I don't know, this is just loaded with all kinds of turmoil.
IMHO if an individual has a desire to become a breeder they might do so AFTER intense, INTENSE, research!! Research into every facet of the process.

The person should do some research on breeders, look for the ones that are doing it right. Notice I suggested more than one breeder. They would be happy to lay it one the line - breeding entails a whole lot of responsibility and should not to be attempted by the faint of heart.


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## APBTLove

Yes, people have the RIGHT to breed their animals without doing it for the right reasons or the right way.

Should they? 

NO!!! It drives me insane when people ignore the overpopulation and breed their mutts because they'll make pretty babies. 

But it's not up to us what people do with their property.


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## selzer

Well put.


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## Jessiewessie99

chocolat said:


> why do you think they use the word 'adopt" rather than "sell"?


I swear it said something different, I thought it said something about them making the dogs human. Rescuing or adopting the dog is taking the dog in when it was homeless. Its like an orphanage for dogs. The people at the shelters take these dogs in and give them a temporary home and take care of them while they wait for someone to take them in.

Where as if you go to a breeder you are basically "shopping" for a pet.seems silly and the wrong use of words, but thats what it is like. Its like you are going to a store, you see the types of shoes you want. You narrow it down to tennis shoes(certain breeds that you are into such as working dogs), then you narrow it down to brand(or breed) also you chose the store you want to go to(choosing a breeder.) Then you tell the breeder what you want in a dog such as drive, tempermant, color, talk about what kind of dog you want whether its one that will be good at agility or one that is good at show conformation, and your liufestyle(or sales associate you want running shoes that will last a long time, have good soles, confortable and not too tight.) The breeder will take what you told them you want in a dog, and find the 2 dogs who will produce that kind of puppy.When the breeding is confirmed, you place a deposit showing you are a serious buyer. Then once the puppies are born you make your purchase. Then your puppy is chosen adn given to you at 8 weeks old.Plus breeders have to make sure the dog is has a clear bill of health(depending on the breed.) And at a shelter they do the basics(rabies, spay/neutering, and the other basic shots required by law that a owner must have when they own a dog.

With a shelter, you are basically geting what you paid for, you just get a dog that you know will love you and cherish you all through their life. With a breeder its almost the same thing, but you have chosen a certain breed and want certain qualites in the dog. With a breeder you basically designing your dream dog. Where as at a shelter you just getting a puppy as a friend, companion and protector, not necissarily basing it off anything.

This is the closest thing I could come up with.lol. Yes comparing a living thing to a non-living thing are 2 different things. But hopefully you get the picture.But when it comes to a life you have to be extra careful, because you are bring another member into your own home. Whereas if you get a pair of shoes you don't have to worry about becoming too attached or worrying about something happening.


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## AgileGSD

"In the past, the most popular use of the undefined label was to describe the commercial or high volume breeders as “puppy mills". Other labels were then linked to it. They were called “overpopulation”, “vicious dogs”, “dangerous dogs”, “responsible dog owner”, etc. While each of these labels enjoyed widespread acceptance, none were ever defined. In each case, the fancy and the public accepted them without any understanding of what they meant or what they were intended to do. Now, after more than ten years of use, they are still undefined. For these reasons, it is important to appreciate who creates the labels (change agents), why they are using them and what affect they are having on the AKC, veterinary schools, dog clubs, registrations (stud book), and, ultimately, the breeders. 

By design, most of these labels are left vague or never defined. This reduces the chances for resistance. When catchy words and phrases are linked to them, many ideas can be pushed to support their agenda. It is not just the general description given them that gathers attention, it’s the success they have had convincing breeders, their clubs and the writers to use undefined labels. Whether this new label will follow in the footsteps of the others is yet to be determined. But based on the past, it is safe to say that we should take this opportunity to understand its potential. 

History shows that one of the earliest undefined labels targeted breeders by calling them “puppy mills". Catchy phrases were added to describe them as irresponsible individuals who owned dirty kennels and carried out careless breedings. This label was then linked to a negative form of animal husbandry as a way to grow the idea into something bigger. Some of the first uses of this label focused on the breeders in certain states and cities. It resulted in changes in policies, zoning, regulations and even legislation. The strategy being used today closely parallels this scenario. It focuses on issues the Animal Rights Movement believes need to be changed. Their current strategy begins with the fancy (breeders/writers) as they push for acceptance in conversation, at meetings and on websites. Follow-up efforts are then used to identify the problem that fits their strategy. This step usually involves their critic groups who are developing court cases that will follow. Their use of the law and the courts has already resulted in a negative and financial impact on hundreds of breeders and their dog clubs. Their efforts have been effective only because they are able to create labels the community will accept. 

In the past, it was only the like-minded groups within the animal rights movement that were able to function as change agents. In the beginning they were forced to use negative incentives and the courts to push their agendas. But over the past 20 years they have effectively learned how to use legislation and the courts and the breeders to introduce new changes in zoning, ownership, breeding rights, care and conditions etc. Typically they use the argument of “raising the bar”. Sometimes they call it “raising the standard”. Today, when the term “puppy mill” is used, it quickly arouses a negative and emotional response. More importantly, it demonstrates how one undefined label in the hands of a determined group can manipulate the masses. 

From the beginning, their goal was to control, limit and reduce the ownership and breeding rights of the breeders and those who exhibit purebred dogs. Thus far, they have successfully done both. What is best known about their efforts is the ripple effect they are having on the gene pools of many breeds. This is one of the most dangerous aspects of this new label." A Gathering Storm by Dr. Carmen Battaglia


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## selzer

JessieWessie, going to a pound or shelter or a rescue is much more like shopping and purchasing than a breeder. 

Here is how I see it. You go to a pound. You say you want a dog that is yay big, about so old, and this color. They show you a few, and if one connects with you, you decide on that one. You pay your money and and you leave. When you leave, generally, that is the last contact you will have with the _retailer, _after all, they did not breed the dog, know nothing about its background, and cannot tell you much more. 

When you contact a rescue, you tell them the breed of dog you want, the age you would like to have, the energy level, what animals you currently own and how well that particular dog might do with them. The think about it, tell you to fill out an application which helps them to narrow down the search for the perfect dog for you. It would be kind of like getting a real estate agent to help you find the house you want to buy instead of looking for a house yourself and then dealing with their agent. 

They tell you about a dog and have you meet the dog, and you decide if this is indeed what you had in mind. If so, MONEY CHANGES HANDS, and you go on your merry way with the dog. Many great relationships happen this way. But it IS a sale. Usually they say that you must bring the dog back rather than give it away or sell it or drop it in a pound. Usually they will offer some support, but you are buying a known quatity that in part may be unknown. What I mean is that you are buying a dog that has certain characteristics, but you may not know its entire history, bloodlines etc. 

When you go to a breeder, USUALLY, you contact them and talk with them a couple of times, you discuss bloodlines, health screening, titles, etc. You discuss what you want to do with the puppy. Normally you discuss previous and current pets. Ordinarily you will touch on a number of topics from training to nutrician and the breeder from this decides whether or not you should OWN one of their puppies. Then down the line, you can call your breeder with further questions and concerns and the breeder can remember the dogs and their sires and grand sires in manycases, and they want to hear about the pup and how it is doing. They are proud of their accomplishments and are happy to know it has a good home. But it is STILL a sale, a purchase. 

They do not say, OK, there is the seventh person who wants a low drive, large, black German Shepherd, lets breed Maxine and Shadow. That is not how it works. 

They may think to themselves, this person should probably get a pup out of a Maxine and Shadow litter. When the pups are weaned, they evaluate the males and females and call to let you know that there are two or three possible puppies, that you can choose from. Yes, usually there is a deposit, and then if you like what you see, you buy the puppy and away you go. 

In all three you are buying, not adopting. 

Adopting is a term that they have stolen that does make it seem more humane, more like adding a child to your household. 

People like to think of themselves as pet-parents, or momma and daddy to their dogs. But this is making little humans out of dogs, still most of us do it to some extent. That's my boy. We are proud of them, and should be. 

Some of the rescues go into details for the owners because they want to impress on them the enorimity of the action they are committing, the responsibility they are undertaking. 

But real adoptions are very different and involve the court system. Being very involved with my two adopted nieces, I almost feel that the flippant way that these people are using the term adoption kind of smacks a bit.


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## Dawn

I work in a shelter and have for almost 9 years...it would break your heart what I see on a daily base.
What bothers me is people who could care or less about the breed or well being of the animals but are looking at the all mighty dollar and that is it.
Right now I am going through a situation with my husbands sister's family who have a GSD got kicked out of their trailer ( now living with their mother) because they had the dog. Never even took their cats to be spayed a year ago ( I am the manager of the spay and neuter clinic at my shelter and offered them free spaying and vaccines). But because they have "papers" for this dog they want to breed her now.
I have been flipping out for days over this!!!
It is one thing when a responsible breeder is breeding and know the background of their dogs, screen buyers of the puppies and have all veterinary care done on their animals but when people are just trying to make a quick buck and don't know the breed but have papers on a dog..it is just the dogs that will suffer in the end. This is how so many animals end up in shelters.

sorry for the ranting...and thank you for letting me vent..

dawn
by the way Raven is a rescue from my shelter..


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## chocolat

I have adopted 3 kids. The orphanages that they came from didnt own them ..they werent legal slaves..therefore they were adopted and not sold to me


dogs are sold to people who can do(within legal reason) as they wish with their dog. this includes rescues, shelters and breeders of any kind.

when the dogs turn a certain age..ie about 18 yr old in kids. They cant leave home the way a kid can..big difference between adopted and sold.

My toes curl and I cringe everytime I read or hear the phrase "pet parent" the sad thing is I use to be one to call my dogs "my babies"..These AR extremist took something so sweet and innocent and turned it into something sinister with the goal of political gain


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## gunrunner

Not sure about there but here our dogs are registered . But its my belief that its the owners that need to be registered .The point im making is the dog whatever breed it is will only turn out as good as the owner who bought him/her up .
That goes on breeding too .


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## DJEtzel

Dawn said:


> I work in a shelter and have for almost 9 years...it would break your heart what I see on a daily base.
> What bothers me is people who could care or less about the breed or well being of the animals but are looking at the all mighty dollar and that is it.
> Right now I am going through a situation with my husbands sister's family who have a GSD got kicked out of their trailer ( now living with their mother) because they had the dog. Never even took their cats to be spayed a year ago ( I am the manager of the spay and neuter clinic at my shelter and offered them free spaying and vaccines). But because they have "papers" for this dog they want to breed her now.
> I have been flipping out for days over this!!!
> It is one thing when a responsible breeder is breeding and know the background of their dogs, screen buyers of the puppies and have all veterinary care done on their animals but when people are just trying to make a quick buck and don't know the breed but have papers on a dog..it is just the dogs that will suffer in the end. This is how so many animals end up in shelters.
> 
> sorry for the ranting...and thank you for letting me vent..
> 
> dawn
> by the way Raven is a rescue from my shelter..


Wait, is Raven the dog that is going to be bred? Your shelter is letting that happen? 



gunrunner said:


> Not sure about there but here our dogs are registered . But its my belief that its the owners that need to be registered .*The point im making is the dog whatever breed it is will only turn out as good as the owner who bought him/her up* .
> That goes on breeding too .


I don't believe this is true. You can have a great handler/owner, but if the dog is of poor breeding, there are some things genetic that owners just can't control.


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## Dainerra

not all shelters spay/neuter before the animal leaves. even if they require you to do it within a certain amount of time, they have no way to enforce it.

this is why so many shelters even require 7-8 week old puppies/kittens to be fixed before adoption - once the animal leaves the building, they have no control over what it is used for.


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## Dawn

Sorry for the misunderstanding..Raven is my dog!! eeeek..lol.. she is just getting over being in heat and then will be spayed at my facility, she was brought in as a stray to my shelter, first owner gave her away,her second owner was contacted ( this was the second time she came into us as a stray, as he would leave her in the yard all day with a 4 ft chain link fence) and he never returned to get her. 
I counted the hours and minutes down till I was allowed to adopt her. We connected right away and I am in love!
Sorry for the confusion, I was ranting and just upset over the entire situation.

dawn


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## APBTLove

gunrunner said:


> Not sure about there but here our dogs are registered . *But its my belief that its the owners that need to be registered .The point im making is the dog whatever breed it is will only turn out as good as the owner who bought him/her up .*
> That goes on breeding too .


You can't raise, train, or love genetics and many, many years of breeding out of a dog. you can influence their behavior, but you can't raise a working German Shepherd to behave like a King Charles Spaniel. I can say before I was educated I believed that. I suffered for it, and so did my dogs, because I brought the wrong breed of hard working dog into my home and thought that if I raised her right she would be a happy lap pet. Nope.


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## Jessiewessie99

chocolat said:


> I have adopted 3 kids. The orphanages that they came from didnt own them ..they werent legal slaves..therefore they were adopted and not sold to me
> 
> 
> dogs are sold to people who can do(within legal reason) as they wish with their dog. this includes rescues, shelters and breeders of any kind.
> 
> when the dogs turn a certain age..ie about 18 yr old in kids. They cant leave home the way a kid can..big difference between adopted and sold.
> 
> *My toes curl and I cringe everytime I read or hear the phrase "pet parent" the sad thing is I use to be one to call my dogs "my babies"..These AR extremist took something so sweet and innocent and turned it into something sinister with the goal of political gain*


You still have to pay money to adopt a child. Many kids can't leave home when they are 18, they have the choice, but probably can't physically, mentally, or financially. Shelters and rescues are temporary homes for animals. We are there forever homes. There is a reason they call them shelters and rescues. They rescue animals and give them shelter, food, water, and medical care and the attention they need.

Also shelters and rescues deal all sorts of dogs of different breeds, whereas breeders mostly deal with one. Shelters and rescues deal with dogs who come from different backgrounds and need special attention and care. Breeders breed to better the breed(most of them.) and have a set goal in mind such as working lines, or show lines and breed for certain traits and such. Where as shelters don't breed(most don't) and just want to give every dog in their care a chance at a good home. Both breeders and shelters/rescues want their dogs to go to good homes. But both have different goals for their dogs.

I don't think any of us are AR extremists. I call my dogs my babies. I think alot of us are considered pet parents because our animals are like our children.


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## sagelfn

chocolat said:


> My toes curl and I cringe everytime I read or hear the phrase "pet parent" the sad thing is I use to be one to call my dogs "my babies"..These AR extremist took something so sweet and innocent and turned it into something sinister with the goal of political gain


what? 

why would it bother you what other people refer to their pets as? what does any of that have to do with groups like PETA


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