# German Show line/Working line Cross (Cliff??)



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Going off Cliff's evaluation of the dog from the other thread, I'd like to hear opinions on these two breedings, both working line/German show line mixes. Any and all thoughts appreciated.

*Breeding 1*

Mating test - German shepherd dog

*Breeding 2*

Mating test - German shepherd dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let me weigh in as you mentioned me.
First, when talking about a breeding I look at it from two perspectives, one; as a owner to be, two; as a breeder creating dogs for breeding stock.
The first breeding I like a lot more. The top side is working lines, the bottom (dam), has two important dogs in sire's position of both parents. This is Cim and Jeck. Jeck could produce some really nice sound dogs, with excellent working traits and nerve, you did have to watch for hips with Jeck but he's definitely a dog I would use. Cim was a son of Cello Romerau, who goes back to Mutz vd Peltzerferm and was known for producing sound dogs and good working traits. Cello could produce males on the small side but again a very good showline specimen. The strength of the showline dam in this breeding, gives excellent chance of good consistent temperament and nerve, thus leading to some very nice dogs.
The second breeding I think you would see a lot of inconsistency in temperament and not all good...JMO.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks Cliff. Had to mention you by name because it was your post that sparked my cuiousity, and always look forward to hearing your thoughts. 

For the second breeding, do you dislike the individual pedigrees of the dam and sire, or simply the combination? Could you go into a bit more detail for me, when you find the time?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Trent,
Go to the pedigree of Happy, and go to the fourth generation and take the four sires and click on their names and look at their pedigrees. Then do the same for the four dams. I think you will see what I see.
Cliff


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Cliff,
I struggle understanding this kind of thing more than Rei does, but does it have anything at all to do with an excess of Eiko Kirschental and Matsch Bungalow?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Eiko, Xaver,Matsch, and Quino were all dogs that were mediocre to fair in hip production, Matsch for sure is not a dog that I would like to see linebred on too close. Happy has too many lines going back to Quanto/Canto through the wrong dogs for me. Too much Arminius and Wienereau for me also. Nonetheless, the real problem with #2 is I don't think the genetic base of dam will support the drives of sire.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Well I feel good for at least noticing part of the problem! I spent some time looking at it trying to figure it out.

How do you think the _Busecker Schloß_ blood would play into it?


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks Cliff. 

A lot of linebreeding on Quando von Arminius and Irk von Arminius specifically of the Arminius lines, and Uran vom Wildsteiger Land as well. Rikkor Bad-Boll (who is in the pedigree) is linebred on 2 Arminius dogs and 3 Wildsteiger Land dogs, and I have heard that his hip production has not been good. Doesn't seem to stop him from being a popular producer though - he's 2xVA1, after all!! 

I appreciate you pointing it out. VERY similar lines on all sides of this bitch, and these lines are probably shared by the majority of the German show line dogs, too. Prime example of what you were talking about re: genetic bottlenecks among certain lines, the consequences of a refusal to to sacrifice type.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Exactly,...I don't make this stuff up:crazy:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Rei, you got me on the "big picture" in this one. I saw all the Arminius, Weinerau, etc, and got too specific in my search  I felt I was supposed to be looking for specific dogs, lol.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> Exactly,...I don't make this stuff up:crazy:


Not at all, but probably doesn't stop us from wishing it wasn't true!! 

I will admit, the German show lines usually all just blend together for me if we are to talk individual dogs. If I see a dog I like or dislike and pull up the pedigree for a look, it goes over my head because ALL the show lines I see are out of Zamp daughters and 3-4 on Kevin, or at least, Rikkor. It is hard for me to try and single out which dogs are producing what I like or do not like to see. 

Of course, I am not denying that this applies to the other lines, as well, but it seems much more prevalent among the German show lines. 



Xeph said:


> Rei, you got me on the "big picture" in this one. I saw all the Arminius, Weinerau, etc, and got too specific in my search  I felt I was supposed to be looking for specific dogs, lol.


Well, that's because I can _only _be counted on to look at the big picture!! I'm no good with specific lines, especially not West German show lines. 

I wasn't looking for anything exactly, either, just opened up the links and what I happened to see basically jumped out at me. Made me really think about the implications of striving to "improve" the breed and the way some are approaching it. I immediately thought about who this dog could be bred to, if not the working line sire (incidentally, Trent's sire), and realized that if these lines are so genetically bottlenecked that lines are merging closely at 4 generations, it truly is a shame...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I wasn't looking for anything exactly, either, just opened up the links and what I happened to see basically jumped out at me


I agree. I saw what you did and there are to be issues all around.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Trent, I understand people's desires. There are others on this board that know as much as me about lines but they are smart enough to sit back and observe.
But let me say this...in order to get a feel for pedigree you have to look at the empirical data(like COI, extent of line/inbreeding, etc.) and also the ancedotal(sp) data,(history, generalities of type, first hand knowledge from credible people), and a sense of how this meshes. When I see many of these dogs names I have an understanding of what that line represents in terms of structure, temperament, hardness, health, hips, performance. To know the names of dogs in pedigrees without knowing the traits that are synonomous with that name is useless. That's why many people who ask me to analyze a pedigree come back and say they see certain things I highlight in their dogs. I say all this because it is sometimes difficult to explain how I come to a conclusion because there are SO many aspects of these dogs to factor in and most people don't have the foundation knowledge and I often start on level three. (This doesn't make me anybody, just that I have thousands of pedigrees in my house and head, and I talk pedigrees ALL the time with people who have first hand knowledge of the dog or its history.)
So when I say look at something; like you did, I'm comfortable that on the elementary level things will stand out. You of course saw it. But there are many more things I saw that support the conclusion I come up with before I give my opinion. These things are often things that if you don't get the foundation stuff you certainly won't see the advanced things I am considering.
Am I always right...Heck NO...but as long as a high percentage of the time people come back and say I have identified what they see in their dogs I feel I am in ballpark.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

For the record, Cliff, Rei's name isn't Trent. That's her dog (if you already knew that then never mind x.x)



> (history, generalities of type, *first hand knowledge from credible people*)


Cliff, this is where I (and possibly a couple others) run into a wall. How do we know who the credible people are? In addition to that, how do we FIND them? It seems there aren't many people left with the (in depth) knowledge of such pedigrees.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

They are out in the different venues of the different dogs and activites. They are at seminars, trials, shows, events, on phone, friendships developed, etc. I talk to the judges conversationally after events and pick their brains on what they see. I store countless pedigrees and study them over and over. Who are these people..??? Usually they are the successful ones in the endeavors they participate in. But with all of this it first starts with a sense of history, and understanding of the breed, to know when the info you are receiving is straying off the important paths. A lot of people today (and some are on this forum), don't share as much because its hard to find a "pupil" that really wants to learn....more often you find people who want you to help substantiate what they want to believe or do. So many people don't bother anymore and the pool of resources becomes smaller. 
I've had some top of the line mentors over the years and I soaked up what they said and "acted" on it. What people says has to resonate with what is, for people to be credible. You can tell or at least I know when; what I hear, doesn't marry what I see consistently.


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