# Random Acts of Aggression



## CharlieTheGSD (Mar 29, 2012)

Hey guys!

I'm new here and I must be honest. I don't know where else to turn, I've researched forums and found this to be the most complete GSD forum regarding health and training. So I'm very hopeful that you guys can help me out here.

I'm not a certified trainer, but I do help out at a shelter here in Qatar and have worked with dogs that are "people" aggressive. I have recently worked with 2 GSD mixes. One was adopted recently (by a friend of mine, funny enough) and was great at the shelter with anyone and everyone after working with the dog.

The dog's initial problem was that he would not let anyone get within 10 meter radius of him and the dog would lunge/bite/bark/growl, you name it. I usually work with these aggressive dogs because I had adopted a GSD/Malamute mix from the shelter and worked off his aggression issue. My dog Charlie was against anyone except for me for some reason. So I took him in and worked him. He now plays with children and other dogs without any issues (he's about 4 years old now and I took him in at about just under a year).

Now my friends dog has gone back to aggression. This dog's name is Joss.

Joss is about a year and half old and was one of the shelter's most friendliest dogs after I was done working with him. I used Charlie to help Joss socialize and I also used to spend hours just standing infront of the outdoor kennel whilst he barked through the fence. He eventually would stop after a while and then I'd feed him, walk off and come back after a few. Process kept being repeated over a span of maybe 3 months until he was okay with groups of people approaching his kennel and strangers he never met coming alone to the kennel approaching.

He was great once adopted. No signs of aggression. Vet cleared out all health issues, we've checked for thyroid problems and even other issues. All clear.

I know my friend very well and have worked with him ever since he took Joss, just to make sure everything is okay. He even houses Charlie when I'm out in the UAE/Kuwait/KSA for work.

Recently though, Joss has been very, very aggressive towards strangers. Especially (I'm not trying to be racist but this is what I've noticed) darker skinned people (brown or black) but without fail he'll bark and lunge at any child near by. Joss is always on a leash, but my friend keeps complaining he could never get the muzzle on Joss unless I'm the one doing it. Apparently Joss runs, retreats and pees the second my friend gets the Muzzle out.

So, since my friend lives in an apartment on the 7th floor. He's in a constant state of nervousness. Joss has warmed up to the muzzle a little. We've taken Joss to a certified dog trainer (who used to train police dogs and service dogs - no he's retired and training dogs for protection service here in Qatar).

The trainer said he found no signs of aggression. We asked the training to come to the building my friend lives in but since his training facility/home is far out - we have had trouble getting him to us.

Joss is a great dog, and even when my friend brings Joss to the shelter to socialize he's great with people and other dogs. But whilst we're trying to leave the building for a walk or to take him down to pee/poo he goes psycho at the door man or/and any children/people near by.

I usually am able to control him. I recently shifted him to the "choke collar" (not the prong one with spikes). I give him a good tug if he lunges and barks at anyone and bring him back to my side. It doesn't even seem to hurt him. Joss just keeps pulling and sometimes gives a coughing noise. Because of this I've stopped using the choke chain, but for an 80lbs GSD mix, he's very strong and I don't feel very confident in the normal collars.

Anyways, my question is. How can I possibly work this dog? I am assuming it's not medical since the vet has cleared him (we even took him to the vet about 2 days ago to check if any problems developed - he was so aggressive even with the muzzle on the vet had to give him a shot to calm down so he could assess Joss). The vet even said that the dog could potentially turn into a much bigger hazard later on in his life and may even hurt us. So we should consider putting him to sleep if this continues.

I can't accept that. The dog is so well behaved apart from this stranger issue. We've got walking on a leash down now (more or less - he doesn't tug on the leash like before). He's even okay with cats now (he wants to chase them but controls himself). We never leave him off leash outside the house, he's always leashed but with a small elevator and so many kids we worry he'll get one of them one day (God forbid).

It seems he's only aggressive when on walks and another dog approaches. When strangers get too close to him. Mainly, he's super aggressive in the lobby on the way out of the building.

We have pegged this to two things right now.

We genuinely believe most of it is fear aggression (the vets office as an example or other dogs on walks).

We also believe the lobby aggression to the doorman and the kids in the building is mainly due to territorial/protective behavior.

He tends to straighten up his body point his head forward and then after a few seconds (more like a second or two) of silence jumps up and barks and lunges. (sometimes its so bad the dog drags my friend a little - you can imagine a dog up on two legs barking and snarling whilst my friend is trying to pull him back on the leash.)

We haven't noticed much "lip shivering" or lifting of the lip. If any, it's very subtle.

Mainly it's just the lunging and very loud aggressive barking.

I have been trying to get people in the building or other friends to help and socialize Joss in these settings but no one wants to. Everyone seems to be too scared.

I worry my friend may end up deciding to put Joss down, which would be a real shame because Joss has some serious personality. I'd even say Joss has more personality than my beloved Charlie (Charlie has now turned into a lazy bum - never wants to play fetch anymore or play ball and just isn't as goofy as he was anymore, still love him though).

Any help would be highly appreciated. Sorry for the immense amount of info but I thought I'd just give as much info as I could so maybe you guys could catch something out that I didn't know about or couldn't really see.

Thanks! If you have any questions about behavior with regards to Joss - let me know and I'll hopefully be able to answer it to provide you all with more info. Oh and he's neutered btw.


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## cuttingedge (Nov 23, 2009)

I am by no means an expert so take that for what it's worth. I like you have trained many dogs and have spent a considerable amount of time with the two that I own now at both a training facility as well as having a trainer come to us. Having said that I am about to take my friends dog whom is the brother to my GSD and try to train him because my friend has experienced problems with this dog that I think I can help with. (Aggression towards strangers, other dogs and has nipped two kids)

Like the dog you describe he has a great personality but seems to have random acts of aggression.

The way that I am going to approach his problems are:

Dog aggression - he has shown aggressive tendencies toward my dogs which is a no go in my house. I am going to let him "shut down" and start over with basic obedience for a couple of weeks before I introduce him to my dogs. I feel it is necessary to form a solid/ trusting relationship with him as a handler in order to accomplish what our end goal is (Peace). 
I am lucky to have a training facility nearby that I can take him to to be around other dogs and work with him on those issues through Nilif, positive reinforcement and compulsive training methods.

People aggression - Again after a "Restart" on his basic obedience to both form a positive relationship with me and to learn structure. Most of this training will take place at my home through positive reinforecement training only because he has his basics down. So in essence we will be shaping and proofing desired behaviors. Once I have established a strong recall, stay, down, and place commands, we will re-introduce people.
I am a volunteer Firefighter and took my Shepherd to my firehouse 2-3 times a week to socialize him with people and it worked out very well. I am hoping that through proper management that I can do the same for this guy. He will be confronted with people of all ages that are basically afraid of nothing so this helps as these people will not show fear of him. I think that if confronted with this new situation multiple times that he will learn to associate people of all ages with good things and stop the undesireable behaviors such as lunging, barking.

I know that I have a long road of hard work ahead of me.

On to your situation -
I would probably try to start over with the processes that you introduced in the beginning of his training. Start slow and set him up for success.
Maybe have a helper on neutral ground and have the dog slowly approach him/ her to see what is triggering the behavior. In my opinion this is the hardest part. Once you have figured out the trigger move on to having a helper walk past while you praise and treat the dog as you continue to walk so that he has complete focus on you.
The reason for this approach is hopefully when he see's other people he thinks that ignoring them will lead to you giving him something he loves. 
In a round about way you are showing him that you are way more interesting than other people and hopefully he will learn to just walk by them without showing a response.

I hope that I am making sense and look forward to hearing about your progress.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi,

I understand exactly the problems your friend is having with Joss. Our last rescued GSD was just like him, and my current GSD Jake suffers with psychmotor seizures - and could literally attack with no notice whatsoever - so we have to have him under control 100% of the time. 

After years of trying with out last dog, we learnt from trial and error just how to handle him. You're quite right not using the choke chain - as this would have really stressed him out when he choked himself - Joss won't realise that it's his pulling that 's made him choke - he'll think it's the man in the lobby or the kids he's looking at the time. He's really wary of them and he wants them to go away - so the only thing he can do is tell him in the only way he knows how - bark and lunge at them. Which let's face it - it works. How many people are going to come towards a big dog when they're barking and lunging. 

After trying just about everything else we found that a good harness coupled with the Dogmatic halter, and a double ended leash gave us all the control we needed, without stressing our dog out. We could then work on his problems. 

There's a loop under the chin on the dogmatic (see picture), that you or friend can hold onto loosely when in very close proximity to strangers. This will give you full control without having to strangle Joss and stress him out. When a say hold loosely - I mean hold the loop with firm grip but don't pull at it. If Joss goes to lunge you just need to put as much pressure downwards as necessary to stop him. The added advantage of the dogmatic - it will close his mouth if he lunges. 

As you're aware if you're worried that you can't hold a dog with potential aggressive issues - you can't relax and be confident - and Joss will just pick up on that. Joss needs to feel secure in the knowledge that your friend will protect him, and handle situations that he can't cope with - and your friend needs to feel confident that he can do just that. 










As you're also no doubt aware, holding a dog on a tight lead will just automatically stress him out, so you need to hold him as loose as possible - obviously on a short lead - until you get better equipment. 

Can you have a word with the man in the lobby and the kids if possible, and ask them not to look at Joss, and to turn their backs and just stand still (provided there's enough space for you to pass safely with Joss). Ask them to do this whenever you enter or leave the apartments. Hopefully Joss won't feel so threatened or protective then. Always keep yourself physicllay between Joss and people. 

Once on a your walk, keep the lead as loose as possible and as much distance between Joss and strangers as possible. Always make sure you or your friend are physically between Joss and strangers. Every single time you see a person, if Joss will accept a treat, give him one. If not, just speak gently and tell him how good he is, when he doesn't react. Don't forget keep the lead loose. 

Is there a bench you could sit on, where Joss will see people but at a safe distance ? You could then reassure, praise and treat him - so that he associates people with nice things - slowly build his confidence. 

Have your taught him "leave" ?

Is there anywhere you can take Joss to have off leash time, or run on a long line?

Hope that helps for now - if not please say - and ask questions. It's going to take a lot patience - but your friend can get there. 

That being said - do you think it would be wiser to re- home Joss into a less stressful environment ?


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## CharlieTheGSD (Mar 29, 2012)

Hey guys! Thanks so much for the the advice. I have been away from the city all weekend so I wasn't able to get to the internet in order to reply. (our weekends here are friday and saturday).

I took myself, Joss, Charlie, and my friend to a chalet this weekend.

I thought it'd be therapeutic if we could spend the weekend away from society and just take us 4 for some good bonding time. There were a bunch of Chalets with other dog owners so we were able to take advantage of that and introduce Joss to many new faces (both k9 and human). It was wonderful. It seems Joss is alright with people and other dogs in neutral grounds. He only had a small scuff when another dog lunged at him (it's always the tiny dogs that feel the most confident I guess) and then he simply gave a loud bark and the other dog retreated. We didn't make much of it because that was the end of the situation. Joss just basically told the other dog, back off!

We got back yesterday night, and when we got to the apartment complex(joss was muzzled) and I left charlie in the car (window opened slightly and doors locked, don't worry).

At the complex, Joss made improvements. I went in before Joee and his owner and spoke to the receptionist and doorman. I told them that the dog isn't aggressive but just doesn't know how to act with strangers. I told them as long as you don't put your fingers in the cage of the muzzle, he cannot bite you. He may jump up on you and paw at you, but he will not physically hurt you. So I asked them that even if Joss has a fit, not to react at all and to just stand their ground. The doorman did a great job at this. Joss kinda gave his stance before getting close to the doorman. I signalled to my friend to sit joss and then give joss the "down" command. Joss obliged, my friend gave him lots of petting and "goooood boyyyy". He sat joss back up and walked to the side of the doorman. Slowly, he let Joss sniff his way to the doorman and not even a single peep came out of joss. After sniffing just behind the doormans ankle, joss started wagging his tail! I could not explain the excitement on the owners face!

We then asked the doorman to just wait a little longer. We sat joss and then the doorman opened his hand (palm up) and brought it down to joss. Joss sniffed a little, and then we asked the doorman to pet. Joss kinda moved his head quickly when the doorman rose his hand to pet joss, but once the doorman made contact with Joss' head, he was all love!

It was a success. We then got joss to walk away from the doorman, and brought him back for another session. It went well.

We stopped after the second try because we didn't want to set him up for a chance of failure. We figured, we'd try another day just in case he isn't sure why we keep bringing him to the doorman. My friend called me this morning and said there was still no problem with the doorman. The receptionist didn't really want to take part because he's super scared of Joss. I tried to explain to the receptionist that if he just put himself in the position right now and for a few more times, he'd probably never have to face another bark again from Joss. But the receptionist kindly asked if we'd just not bring Joss too close to him for now. We kindly obliged and understood his fear. We didn't want to push him to do it. Hopefully seeing how Joss reacted to the doorman and the improvements in the near future with the doorman will help convince him to let us try with him.

We did face an issue. Joss is highly motivated by tennis balls or any other balls. We used a tennis ball as positive reinforcement when doing obedience training with him, worked like a charm. But when we were walking to the elevator there were two kids playing catch with a tennis ball. Joss snapped. Barked, lunged, went crazy. We weren't sure if it was the tennis ball or the kids or if it was a combination of the two. We believe it was a combination of Joss wanting to play tennis and his fear of kids.

Thing is it's tough finding a child who's willing to work with Joss let alone adults. But hopefully a few weekends in new places with new faces will help.

As for the replies, it is difficult and I really respect what you all are doing.

That harness looks wonderful, I'm going to try to find it online and see if they can ship to Qatar. Our pet store options here are limited 

Beautiful dog as well. I've only got a few pics of Charlie, and don't have any of Joss so I'll see if I can snap a pic of the two together at some point for you all to see.

Thank you so much for your replies. I'm going to work on everything you guys said. Right now I just want to make sure that he'll succeed, even if it is a long and lengthy process. I just want Joss and his owner to have the best possible life together. I can't explain how much I love my Charlie and I just want the same to be for my friend and Joss. I know he loves Joss with all his heart but at the same time, he's slightly embarrassed and very worried everytime joss snaps up. I keep reminding him that Joss is a dog at the end of the day, and will only react to what he is taught or learned. So as long as he keeps the good work and effort going, Joss will make the behavioral changes and they won't have much to worry about in the near future!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi 

I'm glad you had a good weekend and things seemed a little better with Joss.

I wouldn't advice letting the doorman pet Joss on his head though - a lot of dogs don't like that, it's better to bring your hand from the side and pet his side or neck, it's less threatening. Nor would I have taken him so close at this stage - perhaps it would be wiser for your friend to leave some treats with the doorman to toss to Joss for a few days at least, before trying to have a meet and greet. (assuming he'll take treats - a lot of stressed dogs won't). Take it slowly.

For Joss's sake and the receptionist's, there's something you could ask the receptionist to help you with. Ask him if he would toss a treat to Joss but then back up away from Joss - or toss a treat behind Joss so that Joss can back up. By doing this it may relax both of them.

As for the children, assuming there are playgrounds in Dubia, try and find a bench if possible at a safe distance away from the kids and just let Joss get used to the noise and activity. Take a supply of treats and really praise calm behaviour.

This is the website for the dogmatic.

Dogmatic Headcollar 

Good Luck 

Sue


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