# I am curious about corn etc..



## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

I am curious why so many here seem to be so opposed to feeds that contain corn or other grains?
Why do you believe a dog cant do well on products that contain things besides meat?

over 50 years of dogs all across the US fed feeds that were grain and meat mixed and those dogs have done exceptionally well, showed, competed etc..

yet we have this new fad that dogs must only eat meat and we are also passionate that they should eat better than most humans.
This really has my curiosity up

It is my understanding(perhaps, I learned incorrectly over the years) that corn and soy together provide all the protien that a canine needs. That dogs are considered ominvores, bone meal..not terrible considering dogs enjoy eating bones when given a chance

anyways, interested in hearing other people's views.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why do you think it's a new fad? there are many people on here that have been feeding and advocating a RAW diet for decades.

I hope LisaT comes along because she can site many sources for you.

Grain, corn, soy are a different protein than meat. While for the last 50 years, we may have been feeding manufactured kibble it is only in the last couple of decades that cheaper protein sources such as grains, corns, soy have been substituted.

These products also add simple carbs to the diet. Any nutritionist will tell you simple carbs are not good. I don't believe anyone said that dogs shouldn't have complex carbs. Pumpkin, potatoes, fruit, veges, etc are added into many RAW and home cooked diets.

My dogs do NOT eat better than I do. They do eat good quality foods. I don't feed Jax steak while I eat a hot dog.

So, I have one dog with mast cell cancer. Sugar feeds the cancer (in people as well). Grain free, Corn free, rice free is the only option. Another has HD. What little research I've done into that is indicating that simple carbs that break down into sugars are also bad.

Look at it this way, any nutritionist you speak too (for people) will tell you to stay away from simple carbs. Eat whole grains, avoid veges that are simple carbs such as corn. We are also omnivores, but we shouldn't be eating alot of this stuff either.

Look at cat food. Cats are true carnivores. They can NOT survive without meat that provides essentials such as taurine. They will die, and the manufacturers of cat food did kill many cats before they figured that out. So, why does 99% of cat food out there have the main ingredient of corn as a protein? chicken by-product meal as a second ingredient? They use the cheap fillers and then add the taurine. What good is that doing the cats? They have a high incident of diabetes, kidney stones, and obesity due to the crappy food.

A good kibble is equivalent to a RAW diet in my opinion. I fed TOTW for a long time and Jax did quite well on it.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

RAW people are a breed of their own. Don't most of them feed whole meats like entire parts of chicken?

I guess I was asking towards folks who feed kibble. This way we can compare apples to apples


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh...sorry... I thought you wanted a whole picture when you asked for other people's views and not just parts of it. I'll go back to my own breed now. Of course, I may be confused on what breed I am since I've fed kibble, done the research, switched some of my animals to RAW and still feed one kibble.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

didnt mean to offend you. hard to compare a RAW diet made by an owner to kibbles made by manufactorers

And being "your own breed " (when feeding RAW) wasnt an insult it was a compliment..I dont cook for myself i am hardly going to cook for my dogs..takes a special person to feed their dogs a RAW diet

again my questions were about people's aversions to grains not RAW vs kibble


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Are you asking the difference between say Alpo and a high quality kibble. While I was growing up, we fed Alpo. Would I feed my dogs Alpo today ABSOLUTELY NOT. 20 years ago when I got my own dogs I fed Pedigree and thought I was feeding a good food. I can't afford the high quality dog food I would like to use and unfortunately I still use ProPlan (I know). With all the information we have now you gather it all and try to make the best choice you can. If you have watched any of the tv shows or read any of the stories about what is really in dog food. Ever hear of rendering plants? As if the base of corn wasn't bad enough, it's really all the other crap in the kibble or whats sprayed on it that should really be of concern. Don't think they use prime corn, that you would like to have with dinner. All commercial dog food is, is what cant be used for human consumption. I would prefer someday to home cook for my dogs.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I look at it this way... Yes, before I became "enlightened", I had lots of very healthy dogs eating kibble that was full of grain. However, knowing now that there are such better foods available, why not give them the best I can afford? It's sort of like, you and your family could certainly survive ok on McDonalds, but you don't choose to. That's my 2 cents.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

yes Kiya , in a way that is what i am asking ..why do people think those foods are better? What I read here most folks think the food are better because they dont have things like corn.
Yet, we have fed corn based feeds for many years and our dogs did well.
pedigree is an excellent example. there is a food whose label by todays standards(by reading member's here opinions) is a terrible food, but there are MANY, MANY show dogs..top winning ones at that who were fed pedigree

I was once one of those people who picked apart labels, poo, pooing the grains, ethoxyquin(sp) etc.., until i had a chance to feed a wide variety of dogs/puppies, wide variety of backgrounds and stresses over many years( do mean hundreds of dogs). While I have never fed Blue Buffalo and those type feeds, I have fed what was once consider super premiums like proplan, euk, nutromax as well as the general feeds like dog chow, pedigree, old roy etc..

one thing I have learned is to not judge a feed by its label but how it feeds out. Pedigree is an excellent example. label doesnt read well but it feeds out well..I have no explanation "why' I just know it does. most dogs like it, most dogs have good coats, poop isnt terrible and most dogs produce well on it and show well on it.

Purina has spent many years and a lot of money studying feeds and while they produce some food that makes you raise your eyebrows. I am sure they would have no problem creating a food that is high dollar and meets the demands of todays fad..perhaps, in time they will. or maybe they have found in their feed studies there needs to be a balance..too much extreme in either direction is no good. I dont know as I dont work for them or in their feed study lab.

it is interesting to me, to see how this trend was created.
years and years ago the terrible sin was "soy" and marketing became all about foods shouldnt have soy. Then, not too many years ago the fad was lamb, it was hard to buy a feed that didnt have lamb in it...yet lamb is one of the hardest meat protiens for dogs to absorb, yet dog folks fell into that marketing bandwagon like fish to water.
The current fad..well 'natural' of course, everything is green, natural, no chemicals, and reading on here it seems no grains is the next fad coming down the pike
If you are feeding a brand name food, if your dog is doing well on it..good skin and coat, good personality, no icky ears or skin, good poop. Then, it may not be such a terrible feed after all.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I feed kibble, but not with corn in it. In fact, I won't even eat corn because most of the corn produced in the USA is GMO (Genetically Modified Organism). Now, I just buy organic so I'm guaranteed there are no GMOs of any species. That's just my reasons to be anti-corn. Probably not something on most people's minds. I do have corn in my garden this year, it's an old heirloom variety.

How different are dogs and humans from rats?

"When a German court ordered Monsanto to make public a controversial 90-day rat study on June 20, 2005, the data upheld claims by prominent scientists who said that animals fed the genetically modified (GM) corn developed extensive health effects in the blood, kidneys and liver and that humans eating the corn might be at risk."
June 05, GM Corn Health Danger Exposed - Seeds of Deception

(Soybean are another highly GMO product, if you're interested.)


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

I guess you believe that trans fats (partially hydrogenated) are a fad? What about high fructose corn syrup, or burning your nitrite filled hot dog until it's carcinogenic, is that all a fad too?

Or maybe you still smoke because you believe the ads way back that said it's good for your health.

I believe a lot of what companies promote are to attract people to what is important to the mass public at a given time. The whole "green" trend is not a fad, companies have created "green" by advertising. That doesn't change the fact that driving your 50year old truck with lead gasoline is polluting our planet. 

There are certain things that become fad-like, because for many companies, all it takes is to put some green color on the packaging and their sales double. 

If you put better food in your body, you will live longer. Why not do the same for your pup? 

I'm sure the Iams of 20 years ago was much better than it is today owned by P&G. The same goes for Science diet, when it really was a "science diet". Things change, big business is in it to make a profit.

I feed wellness, good wholesome ingredients WITH grains. But I don't believe there is white rice in there, and I don't eat white rice myself.

To each their own.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

chocolat said:


> yes Kiya , in a way that is what i am asking ..why do people think those foods are better? What I read here most folks think the food are better because they dont have things like corn.
> Yet, we have fed corn based feeds for many years and our dogs did well.
> pedigree is an excellent example. there is a food whose label by todays standards(by reading member's here opinions) is a terrible food, but there are MANY, MANY show dogs..top winning ones at that who were fed pedigree
> 
> ...


It seems like you've made up your mind anyway, so why ask? McDonalds will feed you just fine. A home cooked fresh dinner will too. Up to the owner. Just sayin'.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

Relayer said:


> It seems like you've made up your mind anyway, so why ask? McDonalds will feed you just fine. A home cooked fresh dinner will too. Up to the owner. Just sayin'.


 
I am always open to hearing other points of view. This may or may not change my mind. I enjoy learning even when I disagree.

I found reading about GMO interesting, hadnt heard that before, so something new for me.

BTW Mc'ds wont feed you just fine if fed long term daily basis. It lacks many things we need and has excessive amounts of things like salt. I like a good McD's cheeseburger and fry, but am smart enough not to eat it everyday.
Semi moist dog food like moist and meaty and kibbles and bits are very much like McD's nice as a treat, but when fed daily long term creates skin and coat issues, oozy ears and a smelly skin. it is highly addictive with a high fat and salt content which makes switching dogs hard to do. Obviously, these are feeds that usually dont feed out well, no matter what their label says..good or bad.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Let me start by asking YOU a question. What did dogs eat before 50 years ago? It surely wasn't something that was manufactured out of corn and soy. They are numerous dogs (even here on the board) that cannot handle the richness of a grainfree kibble. There isn't a single kible that is the best for every dog out there, however, when you feed something like pedigree, which has ingredients like Ground Whole Corn, Meat And Bone Meal, Chicken By-product Meal, Animal Fat, Corn Gluten Meal, Rice, and Ground Whole Wheat. It offers nothing nutritionally beneficial for a dog. 

You have a grain, an unnamed meat source, chicken by-products (head, feet, reproductive organs, and other non-meat meat), a grain derived protein, another grain, an unnamed source of fat, and another grain (wheat is a known allergen fdior numerous dogs).

Next lets discuss the differences between those that can only eat meat (obligate carnivores), those that will eat meat if given the chance but will eat other items if not available (hypercarnivores (at least 70% meat in diet) or Mesocarnivores(50-70% meat in their diet)), and lastly those that only eat meat a small portion of the time (hypocarnivores (30% of their diet is meat)).

An example of an obligate carnivore is a house cat or any other felid (lion, tiger, panther, Savannah cat, etc).

At hypercarnivore might be a shark, a dolphin, a snake, or an eagle.

A mesocarnivore would be members of the family Canidae (foxes, dingos, wolves, domestic dogs, jackals, and coyotes) or a mongoose.

A hypocarnivore would be most species of bears or a raccoon.


Lastly when you speak of an Omnivore, this is referring not to a carnivore that can eat plants, or an herbivore that can eat meat. It refers to an animal that must eat both to survive. The best example of an omnivore is actually the grizzly bear. In the spring and summer it will eat grasses, nuts, and berries along with insects. Most of its diet is composed of an herbivores diet. It will occasionally fish for food, or eat a recently deceased animal but doesn't "hunt" for prey.



This is why people feed raw, this is why people feed their dogs grainfree kibble. it is because they didn't forage for nuts and berries most of the time, they Hunted! Becasue they are designed to hunt and kill their prey. Wild dogs operate in packs and will stalk a prey item (including humans) together. The reason they were built to be able to handle it was to supplement their diets with fresh fruits and vegetables. And they certainly didn't go around eating wheat blades, or hunting ears of corn.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where are the studies showing that corn, ground grains, rice, by-product meals, etc are bad? 

We used to use lead paint until we found out it was detrimental. Same philosophy here.

Not all dogs will do poorly on kibble with grain. But most dogs will do better on grain free.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

chocolat said:


> I am always open to hearing other points of view. This may or may not change my mind. I enjoy learning even when I disagree.
> 
> I found reading about GMO interesting, hadnt heard that before, so something new for me.
> 
> ...


That's totally cool. I like to learn too. Maybe McDonalds was an extreme example, let's say Perkin's or Carrabba's or Outback instead. You could do apparently pretty well at those places, but because you know home made fresh ingredients are better and limiting some of the less than desirable things in the restaurants food is likely a good thing, why not do the best you can or can afford? Again, I raised plenty of healthy dogs on commercial grain filled food in the past. I just know a little better now and do the best I feel that I can.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Where are the studies showing that corn, ground grains, rice, by-product meals, etc are bad?
> 
> We used to use lead paint until we found out it was detrimental. Same philosophy here.
> 
> Not all dogs will do poorly on kibble with grain. But most dogs will do better on grain free.


Exactly!


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I also want to say that many of the lower grade dog foods are manufacturered by human food companies. What better way to utilize their leftovers than to put them in a bag with some other leftovers and call it dog food. Companies like proctor & gamble, and nestle use dog food brands to up their profits by limiting their losses.... its is a game of how much can I charge for offering this crap, and will people buy it? Add in some green beans and carrots and people will think it healthier, add probiotics and people will think it better. it is all a marketing game.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sure for every source against corn, there will be one for it. But here is a good site that breaks down all components.

The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

GSDSunshine, you provide some interesting thoughts.
I am curious when a dog kills the animal does he not consume it all or most?
I was always under the impression they prefer the guts first..hence the reasoning they eat grasses/grains etc..

I know when my dogs have killed goats they always seem to eat the guts first..isnt part of "by product" also including guts?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Dogs will go for the organs first because these offer the widest, most diverse nutrient profile compared to muscle meat. As organs go, the digestive tract is only a part. Though it is quite common for them to shake out much of the contents of the guts prior to eating them.

It is also important to point out that dogs do not have the ability to digest raw vegetable matter. This is why they get what little vegetation there is in their diet either partially digested in the guts of their prey, or in the form of rotting fruits and vegetables where the cellulose is already breaking down.

And no prey animal a canid would encounter in the wild would be eating a grain based diet. Wild herbivores eat grass, weeds, veggies, fruit, tree bark and whatever they can get. While that might include some grains stollen from farmers, it isn't the bulk of their diet. Grain fed herbivores are a recent human farming invention. So even with regard to consuming the contents of its prey's digestive system, in a natural state canids would not be eating grains.

No canid will chose any sort of plant matter over meat if both options are available. Now a horse or cow of course would be the opposite. That right there tells about all anyone needs to know about what is the proper diet for dogs. Plant matter makes up a very tiny portion of a canids diet, and the better the hunting the less plant matter will be consumed. What is consumed isn't grains. And what the dog can digest and obtain nutrients from must be broken down already either due to being rotten, already pre-digested by the herbivore who originally ate it, or cooked (as is the case with dog food, but this also loses many nutrients).


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Dogs will go for the organs first because these offer the widest, most diverse nutrient profile compared to muscle meat. As organs go, the digestive tract is only a part. Though it is quite common for them to shake out much of the contents of the guts prior to eating them.
> 
> It is also important to point out that dogs do not have the ability to digest raw vegetable matter. This is why they get what little vegetation there is in their diet either partially digested in the guts of their prey, or in the form of rotting fruits and vegetables where the cellulose is already breaking down.
> 
> ...


Good post. As I understand, the grains don't get digested anyway. Dogs don't have the ability to absorb them and as a result, you are paying for extra poop only. On Orijen, my dog's poops are smaller and somewhat more firm because of nearly complete digestion. That's why I like grainless.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

this is indeed a very complex discussion.....but, here is my input and basis for why I believe in species appropriate diets.....

*Why do you believe a dog cant do well on products that contain things besides meat?....over 50 years of dogs all across the US fed feeds that were grain and meat mixed and those dogs have done exceptionally well, showed, competed etc..*

Personally, I believe in a species appropriate diet, regardless of the species. To adequately determine a species appropriate diet, one needs to examine the anatomy and physiology of the species in question.

http://sg.anandamarga.net/wp-conten...arativeAnatomyofEating-MiltonR.Mills.M.D..pdf

The history of commercial dog food is short in comparison to the length of time that dogs have been companion animals. The use of bagged and canned foods became popular in the United States after World War II. Most people born in the last fifty years do not have any memory of feeding dogs in any other manner…….The depression in the 1930’s also prompted dog owners to look for less expensive methods to feed their pets. Less raw meat was fed, and more grains and cereal products were introduced in home diets. Canned meat products were introduced in the 1940’s and in 1943, dehydrated dog food was introduced, with the instructions of ‘just add water’……The sales of dry processed dog foods picked up considerably after World War II. Mill operators and grain dealers were finding a good source for their by-products in the dog industry. Slaughterhouses were also available to sell non-human grade, diseased meats, unusable parts, and meat by-products to pet food manufacturers. This created a market for products that previously had been discarded………( http://www.b-aturals.com/newsletter/history-of-dog-food/)

Dog food is a human invention for a human convenience. Over the years, low price grains have infiltrated the industry as a substitute for higher priced animal protein. Many people when faced with this question of changing their dog’s diet say, well my dog is healthy why change….the idea of what is health in our society has changed dramatically and not necessarily for the best. We have come to accept that allergies, dog smell, dog breath, poor dental health, degenerative disease etc. are all normal. I don’t believe that is the case at all. I have seen all of this change in a dog whose diet was changed to a species appropriate diet. 

*it is my understanding(perhaps, I learned incorrectly over the years) that corn and soy together provide all the protien that a canine needs…..That dogs are considered ominvores*
*Dr. Robert K Wayne, Canid Evolutionary Biologist and Geneticist at UC-Davis**

*_"The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence15,22,23._
_In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence14. Therefore, the molecular genetic evidence does not support theories that domestic dogs arose from jackal ancestors. Dogs are gray wolves, despite their diversity in size and proportion; the wide variation in their adult morphology probably results from simple changes in developmental rate and timing."_From The Molecular Evolution of the Dog Family by Robert K Wayne_.._(.My Pet Carnivore - Is my dog a wolf?)

Ancestors can be clearly identified when you are studying mitochondrial DNA…..When Wayne looked at his canine mitochondrial DNA samples, he found that wolves and coyotes differ by about 6% in their mitochondrial DNA, while wolves and dogs differ by only 1%.......Coyote and jackal were a lot more different from dogs than wolves were…….That settled it. Dogs are domesticated wolves……..(Evolution of the Family Dog)

What do wolves eat? Wolves are carnivores, or meat eaters. Gray wolves prey primarily on ungulates - large, hoofed mammals such as white-tailed deer, mule deer, moose, elk, caribou, bison, Dall sheep, musk oxen, and mountain goats. Medium-sized mammals, such as beaver and snowshoe hares, can be an important secondary food source. Occasionally wolves will prey on birds or small mammals such as mice and voles, but these are supplementary to their requirements for large amounts of meat. Wolves have been observed catching fish in places like Alaska and western Canada. They will also kill and eat domestic livestock such as cattle and sheep, and they will consume carrion if no fresh meat is available. Some wolves eat small amounts of fruit, although this is not a significant part of their diet. ince wolves are programmed to kill when possible, they may simply be taking advantage of unusual situations when wild prey are relatively easy to catch They may return later to feed on an unconsumed carcass, or they may leave it to a host of scavengers. Additionally, they may cache food and dig it up at a later time. (International Wolf Center Learn - Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves)
When wolves are consuming a carcass, they strip the organs and the major muscle groups on the hind and front portions before moving on to the muscle on the legs and hide (Wilmers & Stahler, 2002). Large bones and the hide usually remain uneaten when the pack is finished with the carcass, however wolves have been known to devour entire fawn carcasses (Kunkel et al., 1999). The major muscle groups and organs are consumed at similarly high rates, while the muscles on the minor portions of the carcass are consumed at slower rates. (Prey)

Further: The dog is a carnivore……The first thing to note about the digestive system of all carnivores is that they are remarkably similar and they all function in exactly the same way. Although they will be of different lengths, because carnivorous animals come in different sizes, the overall length of carnivores' digestive tracts are rather short: about six times the length of the animal's body.....see the article for full explanation……(_*Barry Groves,*_*PhD, * Comparison Between the Digestive Tracts of a Carnivore, a Herbivore and Man - Second Opinions, UK)

*I am curious when a dog kills the animal does he not consume it all or most?
I was always under the impression they prefer the guts first..hence the reasoning they eat grasses/grains etc*..*I know when my dogs have killed goats they always seem to eat the guts first..isnt part of "by product" also including guts?*

Addressed above for the most part. It is a myth that wolves eat the stomach contents….they will do so only when the prey is so small, it can not be avoided. They will however go right to the organs. By-products are problematic in the pet food industry more because of poor regulation I feel. While it is true that dog’s will readily consume some by-products, they would not consume all by choice. It seems to me that a great deal of issue with by-products in the pet food industry revolves around lack enforcement of regulations defining what a by-product is and therefore consumers cannot be certain of the safety. 

*Where are the studies showing that corn, ground grains, rice, by-product meals, etc are bad?*

You won’t find those….since the manufacturers that can actually afford to pay for such studies would never endorse a study that has potential to reduce their bottom line. However, Champion Pet Foods spent some time and money compiling their white paper, which discusses at length why species appropriate diets are superior and why dogs have no nutritional need for grains. “Bad” is an interesting word to use…..it’s a matter of perspective I suppose. Bad, perhaps not, necessary or appropriate, I would say no….Kind of like the McDonald’s example…..bad, well yes if you ask many, not so bad if you ask others. 

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Great post gib laut!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Relayer said:


> I look at it this way... Yes, before I became "enlightened", I had lots of very healthy dogs eating kibble that was full of grain. However, knowing now that there are such better foods available, why not give them the best I can afford? It's sort of like, you and your family could certainly survive ok on McDonalds, but you don't choose to. That's my 2 cents.


me too


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

chocolat said:


> yes Kiya , in a way that is what i am asking ..why do people think those foods are better? What I read here most folks think the food are better because they dont have things like corn.
> Yet, we have fed corn based feeds for many years and our dogs did well.
> pedigree is an excellent example. there is a food whose label by todays standards(by reading member's here opinions) is a terrible food, *but there are MANY, MANY show dogs..top winning ones at that who were fed pedigree*


It's what low quality foods are doing on the inside that is concerning. Any well bred dog can eat crap food, go to the groomers to "Shine up" and go on to win the show. I have a friend who feeds pedigree. Her dogs appear to be happy, but their age is REALLY showing young and their coats are terrible dispite their daily brushing.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just off the top of my head....

Corn is high in omega-6 fatty acids and adds to the health problems that this can cause. Feed corn is highly GMO, which can increase allergies, potential to change DNA, and other issues. Corn is low in tryptophan, a limiting amino acid, and thus is a serotonin inhibitor, unless you also see tryptophan listed in the ingredient list.

eta: Pedigree really is crappy food


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just as a side note, grainfree does not necessarily mean high in protein, though many (most?) are. Grainfree is not carb free, and most of those kibbles do have starches and carbs (usually some type of potato). However, as DogtorJ would say: The most serious food intolerances are those to the gluten grains (wheat, barley, and rye), casein (dairy products), soy and corn ( Food Intolerance Defined DogtorJ.com :: Food Intolerance in Pets & Their People :: Home of The GARD ) 

Thus, grainfree kibbles are kinder to the digestive tract, and the ones that higher in meat protein, better nutritionally for the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not feed grain free or corn free. The corn used in my dog food is not GMO though. I am not feeding the food I am feeding because it is cheap, it is not. I am feeding it because my dogs, all my dogs seem to be doing well on it. 

The dogs of my childhood were really healthy on food that today is considered junk. It was 100% balanced nutrician according to the bag and had brand names like purina and dads. Dogs were not fat or thin, skin and coat were healthy, and the dogs lived to be 14 or 15. 

We hear about things, we research, we learn, we try to find the best foods out there. I remember getting Dubya and wanting to feed him the best and choosing Iams. (I know Iams is garbage food.) My dog did not do well on it anyway and I went to Diamond and then Nutro and then Canidae. 

With Canidae -- staying far away from evil corn and nasty glutens, and the whole nine yards. Five stars from the dog food review or some such internet garbage. And yet my dogs were thin, their coats dull and itchy -- what was going on. 

I could not believe my five star food was to blame. I checked out all kinds of other stuff and went back and forth to the vet, to no avail. 

Finally I threw all the research up and went with a product that someone else had good results on. I looked at the site, and had hours worth of conversation with the president of the company and finally switched my lot over to it. It has corn and chicken meal and and chicken fat beet pulp. But it is not manufactured by Diamond and has nothing in it from China. 

I had a very difficult time during the last major recall where companies like Natural Balance and many other high end dog foods were involved. So many of them are manufactured at the same factories, and we find that laws governing them are not very tight -- like they can change the formula and use up the old bags, so they can change the formula and you may not know it for six months or so. 

I hear that there is software out there that can keep you within your labeling but change the amounts of the ingredients' contents depending on what the current cost of each ingredient is. Meaning if you have 30% Chicken and your next ingredient is rice at 22%, well, you can knock the chicken down to 25% the rice up to 24.5% and boost some of the lower down ingredients to make up the difference. 

These kind of games mean that every time you open a bag, you really do not know what you are getting. 

On the upper end food though, they at least call out chicken, chicken liver, chicken meal, chicken fat, instead of meat and bone meal, animal by broducts, animal fat, etc. Meat and bone meal, could literally be ANYTHING that falls into that category. If freezer beef is cheaper than chicken this week that will be it, I have heard that it could be zoo animals and road kill, but I doubt it. I mean I think it would be harder, more costly to round up dead deer and raccoons and such then to just by the cheapest, oldest, diseased animals to put into the vat. This bag of food may have more chicken and little to no beef, another will have more turkey. 

All those turkeys that were not sold on Thanksgiving or after have to go somewhere. 

And maybe dogs raised and maintained on such garbage are so accostomed to any food that they do not have the problems switching from food to food than our pampered premium food dogs. 

Still, it makes sense to feed a higher quality food. I mean, the food does not have to have molassis in it to make it palitable if it has a good consentration of edible meat and fat that is not rancid. 

So if you feed kibble, then you have to trust someone.

I know a lot of people feed ONLY dog food. 

Well, I do not feel any pangs of guilt feeding mine yogurt, cottage cheese, american cheese, ice cream, blue berries, apples, carrots, hard boiled eggs, salmon, raw hamburger, and raw chicken leg quarters. 

Usually I feed only so much people food as for treats or an occasional meal, sometimes as often as twice a week, sometimes once a month. And I rely on the kibble to keep things balanced.


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## Dawn (Jun 23, 2010)

what kibble would you all recommend...
Right now Raven is on Science Diet for large dogs with alittle canned mixed in.
Is there a brand of kibble that all of you use because it is better?

just curious

dawn


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Consensus here tends to mainly be Blue Buffalo and Orijen brands. I feed Orijen.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Dawn said:


> what kibble would you all recommend...
> Right now Raven is on Science Diet for large dogs with alittle canned mixed in.
> Is there a brand of kibble that all of you use because it is better?
> 
> ...


I feed Kumpi. I did the switch to raw and went back to the Kumpi. I will second what Selzer said above and add that Kumpi is a FIXED formula. It is the SAME bag to bag. They don't use any software to move ingredients up or down. So you know what you get in every bag and it is consistent. NOTHING from China and NEVER RECALLED in OVER 10 YEARS (since they were started!). Plus you can call the President of the company right now and talk to her - you will learn a lot about the industry - kind of like the Matrix - blue pill, red pill. So if you really want to know 
Kumpi Dog Food Vitamin Pre-Mix has information on Vitamin Premix and Kumpi Kids … fans of Kumpi Pet Food (a new fan site for Kumpi Pet Food) has folks - and lots of German Shepherds - who feed the food and have done awesome with it.

Robert


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

Dawn said:


> what kibble would you all recommend...
> Right now Raven is on Science Diet for large dogs with alittle canned mixed in.
> Is there a brand of kibble that all of you use because it is better?
> 
> ...


Acana Provincials and Orijen are most recommended on most forums i hang around in...also Horizon Legacy (hard to find in the U.S.)

im not going to get into a debate about the biologically appropriateness of corn for dogs (biology has taken care of that)

anyone who wants to feed Kumpi will need to be ok with with corn being a very major component of that diet. if they are ok with that, then that should be a good option as it should be a very cheap food. to be clear, i am not bashing anyone feeding Kumpi...they know what it is and have decided that is what is best for their dogs.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I recommend Blue Buffalo Blue Wilderness, great food and it's grainless


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

For what it is worth, during World War II and during the Korean War, the staple foods of military working dogs were fresh meat (or canned horse meat, if fresh meats were not available) and fresh, raw eggs. Not corn or other grains.

That said, I don't think anyone objects to feeding dogs kibbles that contain some kind of grain. There are many good kibbles that contain barley, wheat, or rice. What most people object to are foods that use grains as the primary protein, and where grains make up the majority of the food, because that is not a diet appropriate to the species.

Dogs are omnivores by definition, meaning they can (and do) eat things other than meat and do well on it. Even a wild dog will eat more than just meat - he might pick up berries, eat the contents of the stomach of an animal he has killed, etc. But his primary source of food is meat and the primary source of food for any dog should be meat. Looking at the way a dog's jaw is set up and the way a dog's digestive system is built, you can easily see by the dog's biology that he is meant to eat meat first and foremost, and everything else only in smaller amounts.

There are many people who feed low-quality diets where corn and other grains make up the primary part of the food and their dogs are living long lives. Many people don't realize that their dog could be doing better, have more energy, a better looking coat, or smaller poops until they try a food that is grain-free. Many dogs look just fine and act just fine on corn-laden foods but the differences in the same dog on a different diet can be eye-opening.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> For what it is worth, during World War II and during the Korean War, the staple foods of military working dogs were fresh meat (or canned horse meat, if fresh meats were not available) and fresh, raw eggs. Not corn or other grains.
> 
> That said, I don't think anyone objects to feeding dogs kibbles that contain some kind of grain. There are many good kibbles that contain barley, wheat, or rice. What most people object to are foods that use grains as the primary protein, and where grains make up the majority of the food, because that is not a diet appropriate to the species.
> 
> ...


That was said perfectly. Great job :thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And some dogs do not do well on Grain free diets. I tried grain free with Whitney it did not work. I had Cujo on Grain free for over a year, he was thin and his coat was awful. I finally switched him to Kumpi and he is doing much better now. 

There is no food that is best for all dogs. Not even grain free foods. 

I will not make Kumpi deciples out of people here because the ingredient list has corn in it as the primary role. Corn meal then chicken meal then chicken fat, then dried beet pulp, then lamb meal and some type other meats. 

I can see the problems with it this line up. There is less lamb meal then beet pulp. The president of the company says the the chicken content and corn content is so close that they will switch it the next time they tweak the formula. But the fact is that it has a LOT of corn in it. There could be more meat than grain in it as there are several types of meat in it, but those are lower on the list than the chicken fat and beet pulp, so it is probably not significantly more even if it IS more. 

So, people who have read through the dog food project will say "YUCK." 

I have been on the five star foods, I have tried grain free foods, I have tried Chicken soup, solid gold, wellness core, and prarie raw instinct. 

I have to take their word for it that there is similar amounts of chicken meal and corn meal. But it is trust. And if my trust is in the wrong place, my dogs will suffer. 

My dogs' energy level is high enough. If I needed them to be running marathons, then I would be feeding them for that type of work, but I am not. 

I do not know but sometimes food is so concentrated and so jam packed that some dogs do not do well eating two cups or less of super food. Kind of like eating a large vitamin instead of food. Why do we humans eat bread with our meals? 

And how come these people that feed these super foods are also giving vitamins and supplements? Shouldn't a good food be good enough? 

Or maybe we should feed an ordinary food and vitamins/supplements? 

My biggest issues with food is the quality of the ingredients moreso than they type of ingredients. Feed corn is not good that is not what this is. I do not want carcinogens in the food. I am worried about how it is grown and what is added in for preserving it.

I am also concerned with how much time it sits around and where. Who manufactures it. What is their record with honesty and recalls? 

I am also concerned with where the food is sourced. I think that most of us cannot trust food sourced out of China. I might eat it myself but because their dog food is the bulk of their diet, I do not want to give it to my dogs. 

If poops are good, and the dog is maintaining good weight, and has good energy and a good coat, then you have found a good food for your dog. If you have confidence in the company you are using, and that the food does not contain stuff that is likely to cause cancer or other problems in your dog, then you have peace of mind. 

There may be a lot of people feeding orijen, but I would not say most of us. There are thousands of people on this site, I have yet to see Orijen in any pet store around here. And, I have been looking.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Interesting points, just thought I would chime in on this one:
*
And how come these people that feed these super foods are also giving vitamins and supplements? Shouldn't a good food be good enough?
*
When food is extruded, as with the manufacturing of pet food, the natural vitamins and minerals in the food are lost...what is added by the manufacturer is generally the minimum level, thus supplementation ups the overall levels. Minimum levels in both human and animal foods is actually lower that optimum levels. To achieve optimum levels of vitamins and minerals from food, they need to be as close to natural as possible. Once that changes, so does the content of nutrients.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Relayer said:


> Consensus here tends to mainly be Blue Buffalo and Orijen brands. I feed Orijen.


Unless going grain-free, I'd add Pinnacle and some of the Breeder's Choice foods to that list.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> .....The dogs of my childhood were really healthy on food that today is considered junk. It was 100% balanced nutrician according to the bag and had brand names like purina and dads. Dogs were not fat or thin, skin and coat were healthy, and the dogs lived to be 14 or 15.


My childhood dog lived until she was 15 or 17. But she wasn't healthy by my current standards, and I think sometimes time changes how we remember how healthy these dogs of our youth actually were. I also believe that crap food of the day back then, wasn't as crappy as crap foods nowadays in terms of quality of meats and grains. I suspect that meat by-product back then actually was healthier than meat product nowadays. Things are more big agri-business and the crappy pet foods are really getting the bottom of the barrel nowadays.

As for the Kumpi debate, what saves it over some of the other corn food is that they balance it a bit with some salmon. I do not believe that their corn is non-GMO - just don't believe it. When you compare grocery store non-GMO and regular corn (nearly all corn in the US is GMO), and you look at the cost of Kumpi, it doesn't compute out right. It might not be "feed corn" (even that I question), but that is different than being non-GMO.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

selzer, sounds like you and I have been in the same place.

I still stand by how a label reads doesnt mean that is how it will perform
I worked many years ago for the top showing australian terrier kennel in the US..that lady fed her dogs joy special meal for many, many many years. the label reads terrible but it feeds out great and has good results. When I managed a feed store in MD we sold many types dog foods and I always use to ask folks how their dogs were doing. and Found interesting similar answers along the way. Iams dogs had brown noses.they regained black color when feeds were switched, dogs on kibbles and bits had terrible ears, smelly greasy skin. Dogs that were eating sheet rock and tin cans in the homes, were probably on fit and trim . For almost 2 years I fed a breeding kennel nutro max..if you want birth control..that is a good food for that. they hardly produced any puppies during that time

Eukanuba small breed puppy(that formula specifically) has got to be one of the best puppy foods out there. I know folks here arent fans of it, but i have seen enough puppy results to know it feeds out well.

There are some other foods I would feed if i had easier access to them..Purina Pro Plan the original chichen formula before they started horing around with it.

I have had our dogs on Joy Special meal(that specific formual I dont like the others) for about 10 months now and I am liking the results. It has been around as long or longer than Purina and as far as I know they havent had any recalls. They have super premium formulas not sure how they feed out, but they are available

I have been enjoying reading the different points of view and experiences and thank folks for enabling me to learn more


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## Powell (Oct 13, 2006)

Corn doesn't digest well. It doesn't in humans either. Eat some corn on the cob a few days and see what you get in your poop. ANY gluten is bad as it causes allergy responses.... even in humans. Soy was NEVER EVER originally intended for human consumption and has estrogen in it. Wheat is a problem also. Northern breed can not tolerate corn very well, and can't tolerate soy in there diet AT ALL. I've seen dog food with "cellulose" in it. Yeah, they added sawdust! 

Powell


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

LisaT said:


> ...
> I also believe that crap food of the day back then, wasn't as crappy as crap foods nowadays in terms of quality of meats and grains. I suspect that meat by-product back then actually was healthier than meat product nowadays. Things are more big agri-business and the crappy pet foods are really getting the bottom of the barrel nowadays.
> ...


While I feel more is known about canine nutritiona today, I tend to agree with Lisa!!! I recall when I was a little girl that packing companies like Armour and Swift made the canned dog foods of yesteryear. If I remember one ad I saw recently for an old magazine ad for Pard or Dash that it was nothing but meat with an added vitamin (maybe A). 

My two longest lived dogs were Andy (Cocker) who died before premium foods were introduced (okay, at that time Friskies, Ken-L-Bisket and Dog Chow were the premium dry foods of the day), and Abbey (OES) who died when foods like Wayne and the first version of Science Diet when it came in a large can were becoming popular premium foods. Both dogs were pretty healthy though Andy got deathly ill when he was 8 ... whatever disease he had damaged his kidneys and he ate KD canned for the last half of his life.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Prior Posts About Corn*

Here is a Prior Post about Corn used in Kumpi

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/117020-opinions-wanted-dog-food-2.html

@LisaT - did you call Kumpi to confirm non-GMO are is that just a big guess of yours with nothing to base it on? So far she has been very truthful and with an over 10 year CLEAN, SAFE, NO RECALL track record, I doubt she is going to start being dishonest about her ingredients. If you got to know her I think you would change your mind. 1-303-693-6533 is her number (from her website) and I know she works from home. Why not call her instead of just assuming? You might learn something from her.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Corn is digestible - Corn on Cob is not used in Dog Food*



Powell said:


> Corn doesn't digest well. It doesn't in humans either. Eat some corn on the cob a few days and see what you get in your poop. ANY gluten is bad as it causes allergy responses.... even in humans. Soy was NEVER EVER originally intended for human consumption and has estrogen in it. Wheat is a problem also. Northern breed can not tolerate corn very well, and can't tolerate soy in there diet AT ALL. I've seen dog food with "cellulose" in it. Yeah, they added sawdust!
> 
> Powell


that is not true about corn and digestibility with dogs since corn on the cob is not used! Plus we eat Sweet Corn not Field Corn which is used for the animal market. But even what we eat our bodies take what it needs and gets rid of the rest - same with rice, beef, chicken, etc....

See this information about Corn used in Kumpi as it came from the Nutritionist that formulated her product over 10 years ago.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/117020-opinions-wanted-dog-food-2.html


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

rjvamp said:


> @LisaT - did you call Kumpi to confirm non-GMO are is that just a big guess of yours with nothing to base it on?....


I saw a statement on her website that it isn't GMO, yet I can't find on her website anything to back up that statement. Did I miss where she states her sourcing and the testing to prove it's not GMO? If it's stated on the website, I shouldn't have to call and confirm, the sourcing and such should also be listed on the website, if such a claim is going to be made. This isn't about whether or not I like the person that designed the food, it's about whether or not she has the data to back up her claims.

Even if it's non-GMO (which I still don't believe though am open to being proved wrong), I certainly wouldn't feed a food with Corn Meal as a first ingredient. I believe that corn is digestible in kibble since it's highly processed; I just don't believe that it has the right nutritional profile for a dog, and particularly not in the top ingredients.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

chocolat said:


> Eukanuba small breed puppy(that formula specifically) has got to be one of the best puppy foods out there. I know folks here arent fans of it, but i have seen enough puppy results to know it feeds out well.


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## StellaSquash (Apr 22, 2010)

chocolat said:


> Eukanuba small breed puppy(that formula specifically) has got to be one of the best puppy foods out there. I know folks here arent fans of it, but i have seen enough puppy results to know it feeds out well.


kind of contradictory isn't it? if it's the best puppy food out there, wouldn't more folks here be fans????? 

how many puppy results have you seen?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LisaT, If it says it is not Genetically Modified, then if someone PROVES that is is, We, all who buy the product, can sue for false advertising. Why would ANYONE put themselves in that position? 

As for sourcing, there are few companies that have on their label, "Nothing from China." Kumpi does. 

When some of these great premium foods, like Canidae, Solid Gold Taste of the Wild, and chickens soup are being manufactured by Diamond -- a company who has been implecated in the last couple of major recalls where multiple dogs died, I just cannot trust them. 

But I will trust that their corn dent -- whatever -- is not geometrically alterred. Cujo, whose coat was crappy on Canidae and just as crappy on Canidae grain free, is getting nice on this food. My whole group, not a one of them has skin trouble. 

Another thing that is really nice is their customer service. When I had trouble with Canidae and was in the process of switching and getting them up to weight, they had me on the phone a couple of times with their nutricianist, and they sent me some premix dust that I could supplement them with to give them a boost. They did not charge me for this. 

Who am I anyway, an individual with a handful of dogs. She did not have to care about my buying food from her. I am not going to make or break her. 

I called some other companies and was completely unimpressed with any of them. 

And I called the company that I had had them on, and they were downright rude to me. 

So, I will go with Kumpi for now. Unless there is a reason to switch.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

StellaSquash said:


> kind of contradictory isn't it? if it's the best puppy food out there, wouldn't more folks here be fans?????
> 
> how many puppy results have you seen?


 
Not if most people here believe in grain free
Not if most people here believe shepherds should be fed fast to grow big(which I agree they shouldnt) euk puppy small breed would be too much for most shep puppies

I didnt say it was or any other food were the only good or right or perfect foods. Every dog feeds different, some foods are more able to meet the spectrum needs of many/all breeds.

as for how many, with all the show kennels, vets etc I have worked in /for i would say hundreds of puppies of a wide variety of breeds

I worked for one show kennel who fed royal canin when it had puffed rice, peas and carrot flakes in it and she was importing it from europe(if memory serves correctly) she had some of the top winning dogs in this country..that said many of you wouldnt feed RC at all now. as an interesting sidenote..dogs who eat RC rarely easily eat other feeds and dogs eating other feeds are often hard to transition to RC..science diet fits in that same category , oh and BTW we agree on one thing science diet is high dollar junk food no matter how it feeds out!!

just my opinion from what i have seen


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> LisaT, If it says it is not Genetically Modified, then if someone PROVES that is is, We, all who buy the product, can sue for false advertising. Why would ANYONE put themselves in that position?
> 
> As for sourcing, there are few companies that have on their label, "Nothing from China." Kumpi does. ....


Wow, I guess someone that wants to back up their claims would put themselves in that position? Otherwise they are just empty words?

A large portion of supplements are made in China. For example, most vit. C comes from China, just as an example. I wonder if the supplements in Kumpi are also, for sure, with guarantees to the consumer, that they are not from China. Just curious. 

I don't see an amount for vit K in the adult kumpi: http://www.kumpi.com/nutrients_adult.pdf I was just curious if they used menadione or not, and I don't even see vit K listed on the nutrient list?

While I was looking at the nutrients, I did notice the O6:03 ratio, it's 3.45:0.38, which is roughly 9:1. That's from the corn. And that is what is making the coat shiny, and unboundless energy (think sugar high). That is not equivalent to good, long term health. My dog has had the shiniest of coat when she has been very very ill.

eta: if you want 0-6 ratio to dha+epa, that's 3.45:0.047, which is roughly 73:1


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@lisat and others, you can read from their nutritionist mouth what was posted prior
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/117020-opinions-wanted-dog-food-2.html. the sugar content of the corn used Kumpi is 0.6% wow that is so much - not! He also explains the omegas. Again from a nutritionist that know his stuff. 

I second Selzer that trust is key and instead of bashing a product u don't use give the lady a call. 

I think the results speak for themselves at Kumpi Kids … fans of Kumpi Pet Food.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

No matter how nutritionist the owner might be, or how lovely a person or testimonials... I still am not convinced to begin feeding corn to the dogs here. I know lots of other companies that advocate corn feeding to dogs also. It is not something new.

If someone is determined to feed corn to dogs, then it makes sense to find the best corn they can, I guess.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rjvamp said:


> .... instead of bashing a product u don't use give the lady a call.


I'm confused. I don't see where Lisa or anyone else was bashing this particular brand in this thread. Unless I'm missing a post, it appears that you brought the brand, and the argument, into this conversation from a locked thread that occurred almost a year ago.

I believe it's Lisa's opinion, thru much research, that corn is not a good thing for dogs to eat. It seems to be a common opinion that can be backed up from many sources. 

I guess everyone needs to do their research and make their own decisions based on their own opinions.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> I'm confused. I don't see where Lisa or anyone else was bashing this particular brand in this thread. Unless I'm missing a post, it appears that you brought the brand, and the argument, into this conversation from a locked thread that occurred almost a year ago.
> 
> I believe it's Lisa's opinion, thru much research, that corn is not a good thing for dogs to eat. It seems to be a common opinion that can be backed up from many sources.
> 
> I guess everyone needs to do their research and make their own decisions based on their own opinions.


The bashing comment was her assumptions that Kumpi is not being truthful about non-GMO corn. Further, she doesn't even call the lady. Why not call and talk to her vs. make assumptions on a forum?

I've not seen any research (scientific) that shows corn is bad for dogs in the form of cornmeal used in Kumpi. Please provide some link if there is one. 

The link I brought up is pertanent because the question about corn came up and in this particular product cornmeal is used and the information about corn used is important.

As for Vitamin K questions, a healthy gut makes its own Vitamin K... Vitamin K3 in pet food - is it unnecessary and toxic? and there is no clear recommendation about Vitamin K requirements.

What I find interesting is whenever this food is brought up as a good food that people have had great results on it is immediately bashed by people who haven't tried it. What are people so afraid of about this food? corn? Wow - what about rice or potoatoes in grain-free? Potatos have MORE sugar than Cornmeal used in Kumpi? What makes potatoes or pea starch a better ingredient? And so much more superior? I believe the results speak for themselves and shame on anyone who has not tried the product to speak so badly about it for one ingredient. I believe enough proof out there with Selzer (15 German Shepherds!), my German Shepherd, Other German Shepherds that I've seen on the Kumpi Kids website shows that these dogs are doing GREAT! 

With all the recalls and all the brand jumping people would wake and realize that there really is a company out there that does care. Does NO Recalls and NOTHING FROM CHINA (the place where it all started in 2004, 2007, etc....) mean anything? We talk about what I can afford to feed - but what kind of vet bills are people willing to pay if they get a bad bag of food? Kumpi always holds their food before releasing to the public to be SURE the food has passed all quality and safety tests.

I could go on and on. But if you really want to know how the pet food industry is, give Evy Serpa a call at +1-303-693-6533 and spend some time on the phone with her. What have you got to lose? If you don't want to pay the long distance, use the contact form on her website and include your number and she will call you back. By the way - Kumpi is NOT a member of the Pet Food Industry (PFI) organization.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We must be reading different threads. I read Lisa's posts as asking for proof whereas you are reading them as an attack. 

I don't need to make any phone calls, but if I did, I wouldn't be worried about paying for it. I feed RAW so I know exactly what my dogs are getting and I'm perfectly happy with it. I've done the research and decided I don't like what I've read about corn and grains. 

I"m just a bit confused on why you are being so confrontational, almost as if you have a personal gripe with someone, or a vested interest in the food. :shrug:

I'm glad that your dog is doing well on this food. Even more glad that Selzer's dogs are doing well on whatever food she is feeding because she was having so many problems and we could all see how worried she was about her dogs.

However, just because your dogs are doing well doesn't mean that everyone's will. Most people do fine eating wheat...I don't..does that mean I should disregard my experience because you made a phone call and the person on the other end said it is fine to eat?:thinking:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

This is very interesting

:lurking:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> This is very interesting
> 
> :lurking:


I know!! Can you say OFF TOPIC? :rofl:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What food lists potatoes or rice as its top ingredient? I wouldn't feed that food either.

If Kumpi is a good quality and conscientious company I would be more than happy to feed their grain free. Will that be available soon? 


There will always be arguments and opinions about this kibble vs that kibble and various other methods of feeding. It makes the world go round.


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## Powell (Oct 13, 2006)

A local place sells "corn" to some dog food manufacturers. If you saw what they were selling them you would change your mind. As for the corn that Diamond in West Columbia got, ALL of our South Carolina corn had that problem due to unique weather conditions. A lot of people at corn that was affected. Problems in humans wont show up for years. Diamond FIRED those people who did not do the proper testing.

In a lot of instances the corn sold is junk. A friend of mine ( now deceased) was a truck driver and he said he had to deliver to the major "advertised" large corporate owned Dog Food brands. He said the plants were not very sanitary, and never used their products again. 

Powell


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Powell said:


> A local place sells "corn" to some dog food manufacturers. If you saw what they were selling them you would change your mind. As for the corn that Diamond in West Columbia got, ALL of our South Carolina corn had that problem due to unique weather conditions. A lot of people at corn that was affected. Problems in humans wont show up for years. Diamond FIRED those people who did not do the proper testing.
> 
> In a lot of instances the corn sold is junk. A friend of mine ( now deceased) was a truck driver and he said he had to deliver to the major "advertised" large corporate owned Dog Food brands. He said the plants were not very sanitary, and never used their products again.
> 
> Powell


Yep - and that is the difference between Crosswinds in Kansas vs those plants. The quality and safety record is 100% since they started. One of the reasons she has said she will NEVER sell her company and has her own plan in place with trusted, persons to keep things going as a private company if something ever happened to her. 

I don't mean to digress or sound confrontational. I agree that corn used in other dog foods may not agree with some dogs. But amazingly the corn used in Kumpi has been eaten by dogs that were supposed to have issues with corn and they do just fine. So when I see topics on corn, I hate to see people miss an opportunity to help their dogs because they are feared into not trying a product. It is like posts about corn should have an asterisk that says (bad side effects do not apply to the corn in Kumpi). 

Selzer listened to my advice and she is glad she did. Amazing to see 15 dogs in one family doing great on ONE food - Kumpi. 

BTW, my Dachshund turns 14 in a week and he is still going strong. His weight is great and his breathe is good.....sign of a healthy gut.

If anyone is offended by how I said what I said I do apologize that it came across in that manner to you. I was using a normal tone of voice when typing - like having a cup of coffee and having a deep discussion.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

rjvamp said:


> Wow - what about rice or potoatoes in grain-free? Potatos have MORE sugar than Cornmeal used in Kumpi? What makes potatoes or pea starch a better ingredient? .


IF potato was the first ingredient in the higher end grainless foods, that might be a point worth discussing. a food like orijen or evo has such a high meat content, there is not that much potato in it. potato is clearly a much lesser component when the product is 70% meat content. corn meal is the ingredient in greatest quantity in kumpi.

it is simple for me. i want more meat product in my dog food, and i think 22% protein is way to low to maintain the best muscle mass for my dog.

i just hope those feeding kumpi are getting it for well less than $1 per pound. no matter my opinion on the food, the price should at least reflect the market prices of the primary ingredients.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> IF potato was the first ingredient in the higher end grainless foods, that might be a point worth discussing. a food like orijen or evo has such a high meat content, there is not that much potato in it. potato is clearly a much lesser component when the product is 70% meat content. corn meal is the ingredient in greatest quantity in kumpi.
> 
> it is simple for me. i want more meat product in my dog food, and i think 22% protein is way to low to maintain the best muscle mass for my dog.
> 
> i just hope those feeding kumpi are getting it for well less than $1 per pound. no matter my opinion on the food, the price should at least reflect the market prices of the primary ingredients.


My pets health and safety are worth the price. I would pay double if I had too to get the safety record, the care of Evy, the fixed formula that does cost more to make since pricing does spike on ingredient prices, the manufacturer that cares about safety and quality, the supplier that is the hardest on his ingredient suppliers in the industry, the formula the nutritionist came up with the wasn't based on "cheapest" or even on "cost" but what was the healthiest and based on sound science and vitamin pre-mix that doesn't come from China (it costs more by the way). 

That is the value we get in a bag of Kumpi Dog Food that does contain corn.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I'm confused. I don't see where Lisa or anyone else was bashing this particular brand in this thread. Unless I'm missing a post, it appears that you brought the brand, and the argument, into this conversation from a locked thread that occurred almost a year ago.
> 
> I believe it's Lisa's opinion, thru much research, that corn is not a good thing for dogs to eat. It seems to be a common opinion that can be backed up from many sources.
> 
> I guess everyone needs to do their research and make their own decisions based on their own opinions.


Thanks Jax, well said :thumbup:


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

...this thread has just left me shaking my head...chocolat, glad you started this discussion, but boy oh boy, who expected it to turn to this!



rjvamp said:


> My pets health and safety are worth the price. I would pay double if I had too to get the safety record, the care of Evy, the fixed formula that does cost more to make since pricing does spike on ingredient prices, the manufacturer that cares about safety and quality, the supplier that is the hardest on his ingredient suppliers in the industry, the formula the nutritionist came up with the wasn't based on "cheapest" or even on "cost" but what was the healthiest and based on sound science and vitamin pre-mix that doesn't come from China (it costs more by the way).
> 
> That is the value we get in a bag of Kumpi Dog Food that does contain corn.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, actually, I do not have 15 dogs. It says that on Kumpi Kids because I sent in photos and did not directly say how many I had. 10 - 15, well it really is a big difference particularly if two of those are puppies that should be sold. I currently have 8 bitches, two puppies on the food, and my parents have Cujo on it. Rushie was doing well on it. 

I think those of us who feed Kumpi are feeling heat because people are insisting, one, that corn sucks; and two, that the company MUST be lying to us. 

Frankly, I did feed Evanger's canned food, 100% organic chicken cooked in the can with well water. But then when Evangers was caught STEALING from the electric company, I stopped. Not because stealing utilities translates to poor food quality, but rather because it is shadey, it takes someone who WILL cheat to do something like that. If they WILL cheat on that, then they are likely to cheat on their ingredients. And the chances are no one will catch them. 

So, trust IS a big deal. The owner of the company is not the nutricianist. But they have a good repoir with their people. 

It is very true that many vitamins and supplements are sourced from China -- not in Kumpi. Their label states NOTHING FROM CHINA. So she is guaranteeing that vitamin premix, supplements, etc, etc are NOT coming from China. Otherwise she is lying. 

So, LisaT who seems to be leading the charge, should maybe provide her credentials and say what evidence it is that she has that PROVES that Evelyn Serpa is lying about where her food is sourced and the quality of the corn used, and how she knows that the energy is from a sugar high. 

In fact, my dogs are German showline dogs, not working line dogs. They are not dogs with super high drives and high energy. That is not what I want. They have plenty of energy and drive, but they are not driven. I am not running marathons with them. I do not walk them for hours every day. If the corn used was full of sugar and provided such a sugar high, my dogs would be bouncing off the ceiling, they are not. 

So again, Robert and I are feeling attacked and defensive because we are feeding food that is working for our dogs, we have listened to the spiel and have read the website and have talked to the president and the nutricianist, and feel confident that this food is good. 

For those of you who feed Natural Balance -- another premium food produced at Diamond and in another recall. It has Sweet Potato in it. Plenty of it. I was feeding Cujo Sweet potato and Duck for a while. Dogs in the wild do not dig up sweet potatoes and eat them either. Sorry. Food is food. Dogs from early on have been feeding off of our scraps. It is rediculous to think that their systems have undergone no evolution in the past centuries. 

Corn is in a whole lot of stuff and I have no feelings of horror in feeding it to my dogs. Maybe if my dogs did so well on the premium foods that I had fed, maybe I would be on the otherside of this argument. 

Cornphobia -- I agree. A huge marketing ploy.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

fair, to a point...however, the post was about why people are negative about corn in the canine diet....there has been lots of reasons why people don't like it as main sources of energy....no one is going to change anyone's mind here at this point....

But, I must say that although I refuse to further address the corn issue, my position on species appropriate diets has been made clear in this forum, I did get reeled in by the whole GMO thing...

*"what evidence it is that she has that PROVES that Evelyn Serpa is lying about where her food is sourced"*

Actually, I emailed Kumpi asking them to provide their source, as I, like others don't promote GMO food of any kind. I have not received a response. If I do, I shall post for others to view.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

**** Van Patten's Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Bison ingredient list:

Sweet Potatoes, Bison, Potato Protein, Canola Oil (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Potato Fiber, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.
*****************************************************

This is considered a premium food. 

Let's look at it. Sweet potato first ingredient. Also listed first on the label, doesn't that mean it has to have something like seventy percent? Be that as it may. Well, unlike corn meal, taking the water out of sweet potatoes will make a difference in overall weight, but the next ingredient is Bison which is up to 70% water. Hmmm, wouldn't bison meal have been a better second ingredient? At least Kumpi has Chicken meal instead of Chicken as a second ingredient.

But whatever, potatoes and rice are not something wild canids fight over to eat in the wild. So why don't we all come half way and not beat corn up for being corn. In fact wheat and barley are higher on the list than corn in causing allergies and it is getting very hard to find any food without barley in it.

So much for going grain free. I think I would be just as happy feeding my lot decent corn than LOTS of sweet potato -- there is nothing quite like sweet potato poo.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

selzer said:


> For those of you who feed Natural Balance -- another premium food produced at Diamond and in another recall. It has Sweet Potato in it. Plenty of it. .


you are right, which is why i and many others who feel dogs should eat a meat based kibble dont feed it. it is most certainly more potato than meat. this is reflected in the very low protein %

to be clear...Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Fish (or whatever else they sell) IS NOT a premium high grade kibble. NB can call it premium, no matter. i consider it in the same category as Kumpi...a food for dogs that absolutely cannot handle any of the higher meat content foods and for whatever reason do better eating potatoes or (in the case of Kumpi) corn as a primary part of their diet.


in terms of evolution, several centuries is a miniscule amount of time and very little of it would occur over only several hundred years.

again, im not bashing kumpi or kumpi feeders...it apparantly serves a niche for owners who either need to feed their dogs a corn based diet or for owners who believe corn is what is best for their dogs.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Now how about this premium dog food......:silly::rofl:....oh, come on.....it's funny lol!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Not all grain free foods or so called "premium" foods are created equal. That is for sure. Simply being grain free does not mean the food would be a choice I would feel good about making.





Gib Laut said:


> Now how about this premium dog food......:silly::rofl:....oh, come on.....it's funny lol!


 Funny! I just came from the grocer and I was thinking as I checked out that the cashier would probably not believe me if I told them all that meat was for the dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Several centuries, try thousands of years really. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, lets talk about Canidae All Life Stages that has 5 stars. 

Ok, it has Chicken meal, turkey meal, and lamb meal first. Great excellent first ingredients. 

Then it has brown rice, white rice, and rice bran -- hmmmm. Why da ya suppose it wouldn't just stick with brown rice -- that is the most healthy?

Next comes Peas, potatoes, oatmeal, and cracked pearled barley. 

Then chicken fat. 

Kumpi has corn meal, chicken meal, chicken fat. 

By the ingredients prior to the chicken fat, can ANYONE guarantee that this 5 star Canidae has more meat than grain? Can they guarantee it has more meat than Kumpi? 

Labels are deceiving. 

5 stars are deceiving.

I think I am feeding a better food now, than when I was feeding this lovely five star bag of garbage.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

No one will ever know the exact ingredient amounts of any dog food unless (1) they make it themselves at home or (2) start their own pet food company because those are trade secrets. People can assume all they want about how much cornmeal is in Kumpi.

For me it doesn't really matter because I am following the narrow path to excellent health for my dogs and others can follow the wide path filled with uncertaintly if they want to.

Recalls are constantly happening and formulas monkeyed with all the time. I too tried the grain-free, the raw and other brands and I'm glad I stopped listening to all the people that play nutritionist online.

The Safety record, Nothing from China, talking with and having access to Evy, Fixed Formula, Crosswinds, the Suppliers and the Smartest Nutritionist around has earned my TRUST BIG TIME with Kumpi. And I will keep recommending it. 

Go Kumpi with that corn in it! - BTW corn is high in antioxidants beating out Broccoli and Apples: http://www.kumpi.com/corn_research.pdf 

Have a great and awesome weekend everyone! Spend lots of fun time with the puppies!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lets play with the labels. Lets say Chicken fat is 6% and everything under it makes up 4% of the food for both of these. 

That way we have 90% to work with. 

Lets say Canidae is 
10% chicken meal 
10% turkey meal, 
10% lamb meal, 
10 % Brown Rice, 
10% white rice, 
10% Rice bran, 
10% Peas
10% Oatmeal
5% Potatoes
5% Barley
__________
90% 

with 30% meat and 60% junk dogs would not eat in the wild.

Let's for the fun of it say Kumpi:
46% Corn Meal
44% chicken meal

90% 

with 44% chicken meal -- now which food is better?

They -- all of them CAN screw with the labels.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Any time I got a dog in that had been fed Canidae I saw a rapid improvement in them as soon as I moved to a better food. Just as with any food, you will find people who swear by it. I saw enough dogs on Canidae that I never tried it.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

rjvamp said:


> No one will ever know the exact ingredient amounts of any dog food unless (1) they make it themselves at home or (2) start their own pet food company because those are trade secrets. People can assume all they want about how much cornmeal is in Kumpi.
> 
> For me it doesn't really matter because I am following the narrow path to excellent health for my dogs and others can follow the wide path filled with uncertaintly if they want to.
> 
> ...


The best part of all is that each dog is our very own, not anyone else's. We can feed them whatever we choose. There's a lot of great passion here about what's "best", but in the end, it's every individual's choice. I feed mine what I believe is the very best and in general, most others do too... regardless of what it is. The fact does remain, that dogs have thrived quite well over time with just about anything "acceptable". Corn or no corn, be happy, healthy and raise a great dog.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

*about potatoes*

I always thought potatoes were one of the no no foods for dogs

found some links

Foods You Should Not Feed Your Dog

ASPCA | Potatoes

several references they all agree raw green potatoes are no good, some suggest cooked ones are ok some suggest none are good for a dog

yet, these great "health premium" foods are touting it as good for a pet.
How do they know? How many dogs and for how long and what scientific study to show these dogs are ok and safe eating sweet potatoes and any other potato? what feed studies are there?

Corn been fed for over 50 years

potatoes..what maybe 10 if that?

BTW I had a client get a dog from us..the reason why..she had 2 cockers that died eating **** Van Patten food. I wouldnt feed that to my enemy unless I wanted to risk his health. She had necropies and proof the food did it. This was a few years ago..she lives in CA.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

chocolat said:


> I always thought potatoes were one of the no no foods for dogs
> 
> found some links
> 
> ...


in the first link you gave (I didn't read the whole list) said not to give bones of any kind so I won't consider that link a valid source

the second link is talking about large amounts of raw potatoes...something your dog won't get from kibble

The length of time (50yrs vs 10rys) something is fed doesn't mean its better just because its been around longer..that makes zero sense.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> The length of time (50yrs vs 10rys) something is fed doesn't mean its better just because its been around longer..that makes zero sense.


 
Sorry, I didnt express myself correctly. I simply meant that having been fed for 50 years to a huge amount of dogs would be a good indicator of what possible problems it may cause..like allergies. potatoes being newly fed and on the list of "No no" foods, suggest further consideration should be made. It may be more of a fad food that a tried and true food. And depending if they did any actual feed studies it may not even be proven safe. Anyone can go out tomorrow buy some feed and make a bag of food as long as the protient , fat etc.. meets aafco guidelines can be caled dog food. Doesnt make it suitable/proven good or safe for dogs


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

*you got me curious*

I looked at Orijen and Blue Buffalo..they have not be feed tested to meet standards. They have simply been aafoc tested to meet standards. This makes anyone's dogs who eat this the guinea pigs
I looked at Krumpi as well as my Joy I like and they also are not fed out and tested

Gotta give Purina and some of those folks props..least they tested their foods on other dogs before our personal dogs

My biggest worry is on these new fad diets is without feed studies we really dont know what effects they are having on our pets, We are all guessing because the label reads great that it must be healthy for our pet, but until it is too late, we really wont know

what if folks are right and potatoes given in larger quantities are not good or are toxic to dogs. You are feeding this daily(maybe smaller quanitie) but over time it is possible it may be unhealthy

just thinking outloud


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Fad = something taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time, an intense but short-lived craze. Here are some fads Crazyfads.com - Crazy Fads

Healthy eating is not a fad, grainfree feeding is not a fad. Dogs won't suddenly stop having issues with grains. 

I couldn't find anything about Purina doing feed tests, do you have a link?

I can tell you about Procter and Gamble's (Eukanuba, Iams) and Mars Inc's (Pedigree, Nutro) Nestle's (purina) tests on animals... P&G KILLS Procter and Gamble Test on Animals: Boycott P&G Procter & Gamble - SourceWatch Uncaged Campaigns: Pet food and animal testing StopAnimalTests.com plenty more links out there... sure "props" to them

have you fed grainfree before? maybe you should give some grain free options a chance before bashing them.

I'll trust my dog to Orijen any day over ALPO, Kibbles & Bits, Pedigree, Ol' Roy, Purina, Iams, etc..


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

chocolat said:


> Sorry, I didnt express myself correctly. I simply meant that having been fed for 50 years to a huge amount of dogs would be a good indicator of what possible problems it may cause..like allergies. potatoes being newly fed and on the list of "No no" foods, suggest further consideration should be made. It may be more of a fad food that a tried and true food. And depending if they did any actual feed studies it may not even be proven safe. Anyone can go out tomorrow buy some feed and make a bag of food as long as the protient , fat etc.. meets aafco guidelines can be caled dog food. Doesnt make it suitable/proven good or safe for dogs


I thought it was already discussed that foods produced back then and what is produced today are not the same quality. Iams and Science Diet for example.

Also, 50 yrs ago most dogs were outside tied to trees and in dog houses. They were not inside with the family like today. Owners did not check dog poop daily checking for problems, they did not research the best options, they fed what the store had. Dogs were not as poorly bred and there were less issues as far as health.... basically 50yrs of what people have been doing has led us to where we are today. Time for a change


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sagelfn said:


> I'll trust my dog to Orijen any day over ALPO, Kibbles & Bits, Pedigree, Ol' Roy, Purina, Iams, etc..


What she said. ^


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

again I am not saying because it was produced back then maks it great. I am saying it certainly has been fed enough to know whethere it will kill a dog. Can you say the same about potatoes in a dog food?

I was not able to get the dog food label up for purina to show whether they just had feeding studies and aafco or just aafco. I know they certainly have a center in St Louis where they did many feed studies. 

As far as the IAMS bs are you really going to listen to the rantings of AR nuts? If so, in time, you will have far more problems than debating dog foods when they remove your ability to even own a dog


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

chocolat said:


> again I am not saying because it was produced back then maks it great. I am saying it certainly has been fed enough to know whethere it will kill a dog. Can you say the same about potatoes in a dog food?
> 
> I was not able to get the dog food label up for purina to show whether they just had feeding studies and aafco or just aafco. I know they certainly have a center in St Louis where they did many feed studies.
> 
> As far as the IAMS bs are you really going to listen to the rantings of AR nuts? If so, in time, you will have far more problems than debating dog foods when they remove your ability to even own a dog


I don't think it takes 50yrs to prove a food will kill a dog, if its unsafe you'll find out pretty quick. If your dog has allergies you'll find out pretty quick too. FYI Champion (Orijen/Acana) has been around since 1975

animal testing - never said I supported groups like PETA. I don't support invasive animal testing or animals kept in labs. Just because you don't agree with the source doesn't make the animal testing P&G etc.. does untrue.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just an fyi - potatoes have been used in limited diets, available through vets, long before potatoes were ever in "regular" kibble.I don't know for how long, but quite a bit longer than folks are referring to here. Sweet potatoes, I dunno. 

I too find it amusing that so many of these *established* diets/kibbles are still referred to as "fad" diets.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

chocolat said:


> I am saying it certainly has been fed enough to know whethere it will kill a dog. Can you say the same about potatoes in a dog food?


killing a dog directly vs longevity or quality of health and a dog reaching its full potential (energy/muscle mass/overall vitality).

a dog eating corn and grains as a staple vs a more meat based diet...no contest.

i guarantee you if i put my athletic very well muscled dog on a low protein, corn based, grain based, or potato based food, i will see a loss of muscle mass and a resultant loss of vitality due to that.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Being a weightlifter, personal trainer, and athlete, I don't choose my own diet based on whether or not it's going to kill me, I choose a lot of fruits and veggies, a lot of lean meats, and some whole grains because they give me optimal health and fitness. I do the same with my dogs. They do better on meat, fruits and veggies, and moderate amounts of grains than they do on food where corn, wheat, and soy are the 1st three ingredients. One is grain-intolerant and eats a grain-free food; one does well on a high-quality kibble with rice as the 4th ingredient.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

chocolat said:


> I looked at Orijen and Blue Buffalo..they have not be feed tested to meet standards. They have simply been aafoc tested to meet standards. This makes anyone's dogs who eat this the guinea pigs
> I looked at Krumpi as well as my Joy I like and they also are not fed out and tested
> 
> Gotta give Purina and some of those folks props..least they tested their foods on other dogs before our personal dogs
> ...


Here is what Orijen/Acana (which is actually Champion Pet Foods) says about testing their food:



"This is a question we’re asked a lot, and our position on animal testing is simple - we conduct only those tests we would allow our own companion dogs and cats to participate in. If it’s not OK for our dogs and cats, *then it’s not OK for any other cats and dogs*. We perform only non-invasive tests, which including palatability (taste), urine pH and digestibility (the latter through stool analysis only). These tests are *never* performed with dogs or cats kept in a laboratory environment (cages)."

And this:

"At all stages of production and preparation, we utilize both Good Manufacturing Principals (GMP), a worldwide system for the control and management of manufacturing and quality control testing of foods, and Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point Analysis (HACCP), a systematic preventive approach to food safety."

Sorry, what "standards" are you looking for that they lack????? You said they adhere to AAFCO also (not that this organization breeds the feeling of safety).....the only fad diets going on today are commercial pet foods....hate to tell you, but they are what's new....VERY new.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not have the information available, but I have read about the testing that they do to dogs to "feed test" the food.

Someone may correct me because it is out of memmory.

They use a number of dogs. 

They feed the dog the food for a number of weeks. 

So many percent of those dogs in the study may not lose more than something like 13% of the original weight on the food. 

That is horrendous. It does not tell us that the dogs are less likely to get cancer or skin problems or anything really. 

What do companies do when their food FAILS???

They do not get put on some huge list that says, "THIS FOOD FAILED." 

No, my guess is that they increase the Molassis content in the food and re-submit it. 

Foods and treats with Molassis in it, I would not feed. Why? Because dogs DO like meat. If the meat is there, and is not spoiled, and the fat is from animals and is not rancid, the dog will eat the food. If it is not, then they have to mess with the taste of the food by adding something sweet -- molassis. Not good. 

So feeding trials do nothing for me. I would rather have the formula meet or exceed the AAFCO standards than pass a feeding test.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My understanding is that a high ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 is not a good thing. This seems to be fairly new research (last 10 years) so it will be interesting how it plays out.

Kumpi has a 9:1 ratio that they claim is a good thing and that's why the animals have such great coats but they do not say anything about overall health of the animals. 

Keep in mind that a study was done with cats, who must have taurine included in their diets, fed a RAW rabbit only diet. The cats looked wonderful, had great stool and looked like the poster children of a healthy cat until they started dying from taurine deficiency caused by their diet. My point being that animals can look great and still be very sick.

http://www.kumpi.com/nutrients_adult.pdf

What Is The Omega 3 Omega 6 Ratio And Why Do We Need To Know?



> A high ratio, it is thought, can lead to thickening of the blood possibly leading to blood clots, a worsening of some autoimmune diseases and an increase in some inflammatory diseases, and more, including cancer. A lower ratio can is associated with a lower breast cancer risk. And there is a wide range of lifestyle diseases that are thought to be susceptible to a high ratio between the 2, including many that are related to inflammation in the body.


The balance of polyunsaturated omega-6 and omega-3 fats in the diet.



> The preferred ratio of n-6 to n-3 (<5:1) has been based on the simple logic that this approximates that ratio in our cell membranes and also from evidence regarding food habits of Paleolithic people. However, there has been some further evidence from metabolic and epidemiological studies. Chan et al (Lipids 1993; 28: 811-7) fed three different ratios of n-6 linoleic to n-3 linolenic 27:1,< 7:1, 3:1 in humans. Platelet enrichment with omega 3 eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) only occurred on the 3:1 ratio. They also compared two diets, one with double the amount of linolenic, but with the same n-6 to n-3 ratio, proving that the ratio  not the total quantity is important. In the Lyon Diet Heart Study, the benefits of reducing n-6 fats and increasing n-3 fats (ratio 4: 1) was shown quite convincingly: after 4 years both heart disease and cancer deaths were halved (De Lorgeril et al. Arch Inter Med 1998; 158: 1181-7).




Interesting articles on low omega 3's, high O6/O3 ratio and behavioral problems.

Vital Choices Newsletter: Aggressive Dogs Lack Omega-3s; Heart-Sick Dogs Helped by Fish Oil

Aggressive dogs may benefit from omega-3 fatty acids | Articles | Veterinarians | Diet & Health | International Omega-3 Learning and Education Consortium for Health and Medicine

Another study on high ratio and health problems

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...lNr=73794&ProduktNr=229515&filename=73794.pdf

Of course, all of these studies have been done on people and not dogs. Kumpi was only used because that is the primary name being shouted in this thread. I did not look at the top grain free/corn free dog foods to compare. Those foods may also have high ratios because the meat is corn fed vs. grass fed.

I am NOT a nutritionist, I am a mechanical designer, but I can read and decipher crap from legitimate studies. And I can NOT find a single study that says a high O6/O3 ratio is a good thing. Here is the information, do with it what you will.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

90+ posts! Can we conclude that there are 2 camps? Corn = bad and corn = good/ok. OK, it's settled.

.. I can't believe that some people think corn in any form is good/ok.


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## StellaSquash (Apr 22, 2010)

Relayer said:


> 90+ posts! Can we conclude that there are 2 camps? Corn = bad and corn = good/ok. OK, it's settled.
> 
> .. I can't believe that some people think corn in any form is good/ok.


i've seen enough of it run through my own body ..... untouched. (how that happens I'll never know)

I think it's icky and avoid it in my puppy's food. this thread did nothing to sway me otherwise.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

StellaSquash said:


> i've seen enough of it run through my own body ..... untouched. (how that happens I'll never know)
> 
> I think it's icky and avoid it in my puppy's food. this thread did nothing to sway me otherwise.


ROFLMAO... yeah, gotta love corn... it's a"marker" for what you ate, for sure!! :laugh:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

whatever. Corn is not necessarily black and white. But there are those of you that have bought into the marketing crap for better or for worse. 

Pippy died a couple of months ago. He ate corn for about 12 of his 15 years, had all of his parts and we put him down due to old age probably less than a year ago. It was probably GMO too. The worst thing the old dog went to the vet for was bronchitis. In the end he had cataracts and was nearly blind, but at 15 you are going to have something not working right. 

Corn -- bad, well, at least he reached an exeptional old age.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The sweet corn that you see in your stool is not the same corn used in food. It is more digestable than some of the other garbage in dog foods. 

So long as Kumpi keeps the barley out of their food, I will keep buying it, given the dogs remain healthy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A cat is an obligate carnivore it is kind of comparing apples to oranges. I will look at some other omega fatty acid ratios, but I am not too concerned about it.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@Jax08 on omegas from kumpi nutritionist

STATEMENT: Corn has a terrible fatty acid profile, being very high in Omega 6- Linoleic Acid.


ANSWER: First of all Omega 6 fatty acids (Linoleic Acid) is a high quality very important fatty acid that has been PROVEN BY SCIENCE to be necessary in a dogs diet. This statement starts off on the completely wrong premise that corn being high in Omega 6 fatty acids is bad. First lets understand how much fat is in corn in the first place. The corn in Kumpi contains 3.5% fat. The Omega 6 fatty acid level in the fat is about 60%. So, 60% of 3.50% is 2.1%. So the corn inKumpi is about 2.1% Omega 6 fattty acids. Corn is an important ingredient in Kumpi. Kumpi is not just corn. In the latest scientific findings as evidenced by the National Research Council's publication of it's Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats (November 2006) the need for Omega 6 fatty acid as the leading necessary fatty acid that a dog must have when compared to other fatty acids like Omega 3 (Linoleinic Acid) is shown and is stated in the book. The nutrient requirements for dogs in the book show that Omega 6 fatty acids are the primary specific fatty acid that should be included in food for dogs. In fact it is recommended at a rate over 20 times higher than Omega 3 (Linolenic Acid) or Eicosapentaenoic + Docosahexaenoic Acids! Recent studies in humans and some animal studies show that Omega 3 fatty acids along with fish oils help reduce inflamation in the animals. We know and understand this and Kumpi contains flaxseed and fish oils to address this very issue. It doesn't mean that Omega 6 fatty acids aren't needed. They are needed and excellent research on dogs has been done which proves this.Kumpi's fatty acid profile ratios are correct and exceed the minimums required in the new NRC publication.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> The sweet corn that you see in your stool is not the same corn used in food. It is more digestable than some of the other garbage in dog foods.
> 
> So long as Kumpi keeps the barley out of their food, I will keep buying it, given the dogs remain healthy.


Tune into the humor channel. It makes a body good.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@jax08 here is info on why ingredients are used in kumpi

http://www.kumpi.com/ingredient.pdf.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

rjvamp said:


> .....Recent studies in humans and some animal studies show that Omega 3 fatty acids along with fish oils help reduce inflamation in the animals. We know and understand this and Kumpi contains flaxseed and fish oils to address this very issue. It doesn't mean that Omega 6 fatty acids aren't needed....


Yes, they are needed, but certainly the ratio of either 9:1 or 73:1 isn't something to be proud of.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How should I take that? 

Are you saying I should lighten up?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> How should I take that?
> 
> Are you saying I should lighten up?


If you're asking me, yes... sometimes things that are posted are not to be taken literally. Humor lives here too. Please don't be offended.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

LisaT said:


> Yes, they are needed, but certainly the ratio of either 9:1 or 73:1 isn't something to be proud of.


I trust Mark and his years of multispecies nutrition and knowledge and the results every person that tries kumpi sees. I certainly don't see people who have used kumpi complain about issues like we have seen with other foods and dogs on this very forum.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Relayer said:


> If you're asking me, yes... sometimes things that are posted are not to be taken literally. Humor lives here too. Please don't be offended.


 
Yeah, well then leave my corn alone!!! I LIKE corn. I buy it on the cob and all. I buy it, I eat it, I feed it to my dogs, they like it, they eat it, they do not get sick from it. 

Yummm, Corn. In fact, corn happens to be one of my favorite veggies. 

So go eat your nasty raw spinach leaves and leave my buttery sweet corn alone.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> Yeah, well then leave my corn alone!!! I LIKE corn. I buy it on the cob and all. I buy it, I eat it, I feed it to my dogs, they like it, they eat it, they do not get sick from it.
> 
> Yummm, Corn. In fact, corn happens to be one of my favorite veggies.
> 
> So go eat your nasty raw spinach leaves and leave my buttery sweet corn alone.


LOL... they both are great markers... gotta admit that, eh?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Let me repeat a couple of things since either a couple people here can't read or just want to be ignorant, confrontational and nasty.



Jax08 said:


> ....
> 
> Keep in mind that a study was done with cats, who must have taurine included in their diets, fed a RAW rabbit only diet. The cats looked wonderful, had great stool and looked like the poster children of a healthy cat until they started dying from taurine deficiency caused by their diet. *My point being that animals can look great and still be very sick.*


(it is an apple to apples example as the RAW rabbit diet was supposed to be species appropriate...oops...guess my last sentence wasn't very clear)



Jax08 said:


> Of course, all of these studies have been done on people and not dogs. *Kumpi was only used because that is the primary name being shouted in this thread.
> 
> I did not look at the top grain free/corn free dog foods to compare. Those foods may also have high ratios because the meat is corn fed vs. grass fed.*


This last sentence seems like a pretty important statement if anyone had bothered to read the articles before getting all snarky. I do believe it says something about corn fed meat being higher in O6's than grass fed meat. Oh...lookie there....I might have said corn free food isnt' really corn free and HELPED the kumpi argument.



Jax08 said:


> I am NOT a nutritionist, I am a mechanical designer, but I can read and decipher crap from legitimate studies. *And I can NOT find a single study that says a high O6/O3 ratio is a good thing.*
> 
> *Here is the information, do with it what you will.*


For those of you that are stuck in one mode and DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANYTHING, please do not read the articles or do any of your own research. Knowledge will only be a waste of your time!! Ignorance saves energy.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

In the words of Marie Antoinette... "let them eat corn!" or maybe it was cake...


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

One final thought from me before bed time  

If I needed to go see a brain surgeon I would see a brain surgeon not a forum. The same is true for nutrition....(not that I woulnd't discuss issues on a forum - but if I need help I go to the source....I go to the source of someone who is excellent in his field. I've talked with Mark and he is the man. And I've talked extensively with Evy who owns Kumpi. 

With most companies out there, marketing is about selling products and making money and hoping one day to sell the petfood company to a big guy. That is the complete opposite of this lady. She isn't living in a big mansion or driving a new car. In fact her car I believe is like 10 years old! She works from her spare bedroom out of her home. And she works day and night. Her concern has been and will always be for the welfare of her own pets and for those pet parents who trust their pets lives with Kumpi.

The nutrition of Kumpi is about the health of dogs and cats. For those that haven't tried or refused to try because of one ingredient are really missing out - like throwing the baby out with the wash water. It is rare to find a person with integrity or a company with integrity these days. I found it in Kumpi. I can only try to lead people to a great experience (not only for them but for their pets), but I can't force that on anyone. Each person has to choose for themselves. 

If the nutrition wasn't solid and supported by sound science, it wouldn't be in the bag of food. Someone also mentioned food studies - well, she continues to sell to the New York State K-9, The UN, the MTA and many other agencies because they see the difference the food makes....not like some claim because it is free or cheap....nope - they pay. And their officers (k-9) continue to work longer and harder. And none of the fear that people like Susan Peters on Hub Pages preaches about corn occurs in any of those dogs nor in mine or Selzers or any customer that I've been acquatined with (I obviously don't know them all since I don't work for Kumpi). But I've never seen a negative response by anyone that has tried the food. I've only heard good things.

Blessings to everyone here tonight. I hope the rest of your weekend is amazing!

Robert


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> Let me repeat a couple of things since either a couple people here can't read or just want to be ignorant, confrontational and nasty........
> 
> For those of you that are stuck in one mode and DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANYTHING, please do not read the articles or do any of your own research. Knowledge will only be a waste of your time!! Ignorance saves energy.


 Great post Jax.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@jax08 - i wasn't being snarky I just wanted to show you some things that you might not have read. I was on my android phone so my typing was quick and short. So please don't take my @jax08 as being snarky.... It's good you are doing your research.

Have a good night.
Robert


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Relayer said:


> In the words of Marie Antoinette... "let them eat corn!" or maybe it way cake...


Poor Marie Antionette...she was so framed!

Did you know they built a cabin for her here in PA? Perhaps they should have brought her here and THEN built the cabin.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> For those of you that are stuck in one mode and DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANYTHING, please do not read the articles or do any of your own research. Knowledge will only be a waste of your time!! Ignorance saves energy.


Great observation! And I agree - I know i tried the Raw and Grain Free Routes, opening my horizons and then realized my mistake. I went back to the Kumpi. Knowledge is power!

Best Regards,

Robert


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Okay now bed time 

Enjoy a great weekend with your puppies!


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Corn we all cob down and just be amaized at the grits people have shucked, mostly in good hominy?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The below quote is NOT what I said. I stated all the studies were done on people. I assumed people could make the conclusion that the nutrient requirements may be different for dogs. I do not know that. I am not a nutritionist.

All the articles said that a high O6/O3 ratio was bad. Not that corn was bad. I would like to read the excellent research on dogs that is stated here showing that dogs need a higher ratio. 

Just a side thought from a person who is naturally suspicious...why would I take the word of the person trying to sell me something without verifying the information for myself. That was what orginally sparked this whole argument...Lisa questioned the company and wanted proof from an outside source.

And my post was not even argumentative...it was just posting articles so people could read, do further research and make up their own minds.




rjvamp said:


> @Jax08 on omegas from kumpi nutritionist
> 
> STATEMENT: Corn has a terrible fatty acid profile, being very high in Omega 6- Linoleic Acid.
> 
> ...


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## StellaSquash (Apr 22, 2010)

Relayer said:


> Corn we all cob down and just be amaized at the grits people have shucked, mostly in good hominy?


ok, now you're making me laugh out loud

I am cornholio


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Corn, corn, corn, corn.... corn, corn, corn, corn... Just sing it to Monty Python's Spam song... see, you're smiling already!


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

The statement was made by someone else month ago and that was the response which was a good response about omega. Apologies for making it appear that was your statement. 

Just buzz the kumpi folks and ask to get the studies he referenced. [email protected] 

Night. I hope this time.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

The statement was made by someone else months ago and that was the response which was a good response about omega. Apologies for making it appear that was your statement. 

Just buzz the kumpi folks and ask to get the studies he referenced. [email protected] 

Night. I hope this time.  it is storming here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08, no one here was being nasty.

Robert put in that quote from the Kumpi site to address your post.

You say high ratio. But what exactly is high? I have done research that said we should be between 10:1 to 5:1, and that is where Kumpi is. High is relative. Add your research that defines high. 

Orijen's white paper says 2:1 - 4:1. That is their opinion, and I would have to know where they are getting their data from. 

Just because we are all not in the RAW camp, or the Grain Free Camp, or the Orijen Camp, or the Corn is Bad Camp does not mean that we are ignorant and want to stay that way.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Most that are honestly looking at ratios are saying about 3:1 for humans is optimal; I suspect between 3:1 and 5:1 is sufficient for K9's. The higher numbers that people are reading are most likely coming from sources inside the pet food industry or political structure - they are looking at minimum amounts of 03's (i.e. higher ratios) that they can put in foods before the dogs quickly show signs of disease.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm going to close this just cause it's gotten so long and a bit meandering... so confusing to follow.

If it needs to be started up again, that's fine.


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