# How far will a breeder go to stop mixing?



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

So how bad can it get if you start mixing GSDs?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I highly recommend using the search function in the forum - you'll find a lot of great answers for majority of the questions you have. A good way to start on this question is to read through this thread:


Benefit to crossing/mixing lines?

But you would have to be more specific for the answer you want. You can mix GSDs in a variety of ways - ASL to WGSL, ASL to WGWL, DDR/Czech to a WGWL... take your pick. There is a reason for a variation of the breed. Each one excels at different aspects and was produced with a goal in mind. Generally speaking, you don't invest in a show line if you want to do well in IPO. Alternatively, you may not score well with a working line if you hope to get an SV rating one day in the show ring.

In essence... it doesn't necessarily get "bad". It just damages the breed standard if not done carefully.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

But like how mad do people get?

In my experience people will rage and basically say you should spay your dog and never let it touch another GSD.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

In terms of your average ethical breeder who aims to better the breed? I can't speak for them. But imagine you were painting a picture you had worked for years developing, working hard to get the right paints, the right paper, the right brushes, and only wanted to use hues of red that you searched everywhere for. And then, one day, someone came along and decided to dump white all over it. Would you be very happy when your goal and what you had worked for was destroyed because someone thought that the white looked cooler without thinking about why you only used red?


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Femfa said:


> In terms of your average ethical breeder who aims to better the breed? I can't speak for them. But imagine you were painting a picture you had worked for years developing, working hard to get the right paints, the right paper, the right brushes, and only wanted to use hues of red that you searched everywhere for. And then, one day, someone came along and decided to dump white all over it. Would you be very happy when your goal and what you had worked for was destroyed because someone thought that the white looked cooler without thinking about why you only used red?


I see it more like they are painting a picture a certain way and when I paint mine my way they wanna tear it up.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

That may only be due to the fact that the breed has existed since the 1900's, and you have only just developed your passion for it now. Just like art, you find that those who are passionate about it take the time to study and research its origins to better understand where it came from and how to improve not only their art, but art itself. And a lot of times, that study takes years of being around it and being willing to learn from those who have the experience. There's nothing wrong with passion, but it's important to consider why it is there and how to make good come from it.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Femfa said:


> That may only be due to the fact that the breed has existed since the 1900's, and you have only just developed your passion for it now. Just like art, you find that those who are passionate about it take the time to study and research its origins to better understand where it came from and how to improve not only their art, but art itself. And a lot of times, that study takes years of being around it and being willing to learn from those who have the experience. There's nothing wrong with passion, but it's important to consider why it is there and how to make good come from it.


Well, mine has existed since the show The Littlest Hobo, so.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Then take this as an excellent opportunity to learn as much as you can. What made the dogs who worked in the show so great? How did they train the dogs, and why did they have to use two? Did one have better nerve than the other for certain scenes? Start thinking critically about the breed and take time to learn about the joys of your dog now. There's an endless amount of information, and breeders and trainers are always learning more to help the breed become even better than it is. The more passionate you are, the more you'll find that there's so much to learn. But remember that reading and watching videos can only help you learn so much - try contacting a club or get back in touch with your breeder. Ask if they can teach you more and possibly become a mentor. You'll find that passionate breeders have been invested in the breed for a long time.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

But his are pure right? Mine are mixed right? Everyone says mine are mixed but his are pure.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Winnal said:


> Well, mine has existed since the show The Littlest Hobo, so.


Erm.... easy does it. A handful of us commented that your dog looks similar to C. Eisenmann's dogs. He had several.

But that doesn't mean or prove anything.

I could wake up tomorrow looking like a Lady Gaga doppelgänger... but that doesn't mean I'm even remotely related to her, and it certainly doesn't mean I can act or sing.

If you are interested in trialing and/or showing, there is much to be learned here.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> Erm.... easy does it. A handful of us commented that your dog looks similar to C. Eisenmann's dogs. He had several.
> 
> But that doesn't mean or prove anything.
> 
> ...


Right, his are definitely pure, but mine is definitely not. That's what I've learned from about 90% of the people here.


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## HolyFriedFish (Mar 8, 2017)

My understanding of your threads was that people were saying yours *might* be mixed, and you should go ahead and get a DNA test for your own peace of mind. Plus, if your dog is a purebred, and if you do decide to breed, you will have the DNA proof to show those who want your puppies that they are, in fact, purebred. That means peace of mind for you, and peace of mind for them.

Of course there were comments of "oh, that doesn't look purebred to me," etc etc. But no one can know for sure with just a few pictures. The DNA will prove one way or another.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Winnal, your dog was assessed over the internet by some experienced owners and some who are simply in love with the breed. She may or may not be mixed. The simplest way to prove it would be to 1.) DNA test to both the mother and father, and 2.) check out the pedigrees of both mother and father. In fact, you can check out their pedigrees online too. If you share the kennel name or her registered name, some of the members here can even do it for you if your breeder has been conscientious of keeping their pedigrees online. 

But keep in mind that you're here because you love your dog. It doesn't matter if she's purebred or not unless you plan on breeding her. That's when it becomes a matter of ethics, as clearly discussed in previous threads. Ultimately, being on this forum just means that she's probably in some part a GSD and you're here to learn more and create a better relationship with her.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Femfa said:


> What made the dogs who worked in the show so great?


Obviously the training, temperament is shown within the show, but on the outside, the coat was also very much liked. But mine is clearly a fake impure husky mix. And I guess since then everyone now hates silvertips because they are probably mixed and everyone wants standard now, so white, silver, cream are all garbage to be spayed/neutered.

That's what I learned from this forum.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> Erm.... easy does it. A handful of us commented that your dog looks similar to C. Eisenmann's dogs. He had several.
> 
> But that doesn't mean or prove anything.
> 
> ...


What's the point if she's not pure and worthless pet dog not meant for passing down her genes might as well spay her.


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## HolyFriedFish (Mar 8, 2017)

1) no one said your dog is absolutely a mix, not purebred; without DNA, no one here can be 100% sure.

2) while I'm sure there are people who think white/silver/cream are "garbage," they make up a very small minority; however, there are many who want to uphold the breed standard for any number of reasons.

3) there's more to keeping your dog intact than breeding. Not all intact females are expected to breed. Not all intact males are expected to breed. It's a health issue as much as anything else.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Be careful on the thin ice you are stepping onto. Remember that dogs that appear commercialized on media are always viewed as desirable because it becomes mainstream and trendy. And no one is telling you that your dog is "garbage" - in fact, we're all telling you to love her more and learn more about her temperament regardless of her coat colour. There's nothing wrong with colour preferences, but as I've stated many times: *a breed standard exists for reason*.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Femfa said:


> Be careful on the thin ice you are stepping onto. Remember that dogs that appear commercialized on media are always viewed as desirable because it becomes mainstream and trendy. And no one is telling you that your dog is "garbage" - in fact, we're all telling you to love her more and learn more about her temperament regardless of her coat colour. There's nothing wrong with colour preferences, but as I've stated many times: *a breed standard exists for reason*.


Er, garbage for breeding standard GSD, cuz she's no way pure. So I could go and breed unethically sure, everyone will rage then so I'll just have to do it in secret and lie like all the breeders do right? Like I was lied to right?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Keep in mind we've only seen a picture of the dad and not the mother or the other dogs she is related to. We don't even know what her siblings look like!

I personally don't really care what color a dog is, especially since I don't plan on doing confirmation. But the standard is in place so your GSD doesn't look like a husky. Or you lab looks like a golden. It is to keep breeds as what they are supposed to be as far as what the creator decided they should look like.

Color doesn't make your dog any less of a GSD, it simply shouldn't be your only deciding factor. You want to train and do health tests so do those tests! Yes you have a pretty dog, but we also want to see what she's capable of!


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

She could very well be pure. You have been informed many times how to determine if that's true or not - you have the power to find out. And if you wish to breed her unethically, than that is your decision but it will not be well accepted here (as you know), so I do recommend finding another place to continue with such a practice.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Ok so when I said she could be pure everyone said she not now I say she not now everyone say she could be.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Kazel said:


> Keep in mind we've only seen a picture of the dad and not the mother or the other dogs she is related to. We don't even know what her siblings look like!
> 
> I personally don't really care what color a dog is, especially since I don't plan on doing confirmation. But the standard is in place so your GSD doesn't look like a husky. Or you lab looks like a golden. It is to keep breeds as what they are supposed to be as far as what the creator decided they should look like.
> 
> Color doesn't make your dog any less of a GSD, it simply shouldn't be your only deciding factor. You want to train and do health tests so do those tests! Yes you have a pretty dog, but we also want to see what she's capable of!


Right, but silvertips look like huskies so they are not pure?

"but we also want to see what she's capable of!"
Me too, I wanted to ask how to get into trials and competitions, but everyone says she's impure so what's the point?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The people on this forum have been helpful and have given you a lot of information and advice. 

You have a beautiful companion that you can do a myriad of things with. Training her in one or several venues over the next couple of years will build the bond between you and give you a far better relationship with your buddy than you can currently imagine. In 4-6 years, when you are ready to have a second dog, you will know who to go to to get one, you will know which line you want to focus on, you will know what type of things you want to work and train your new dog to do. And maybe, when that pup is full-grown, maybe you will still want to breed a litter, and you will be starting out in a much better place.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Nobody has said that. They just brought it up as a possibility. People have also said the same thing about pandas, blues, and liver. Sometimes you get throwbacks and the dog looks different. People suggested doing a DNA test, which really isn't a bad idea to do anyway.


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## HolyFriedFish (Mar 8, 2017)

No one is telling you that your dog can't possibly be a purebred GSD. People are telling you to go get DNA tests done so that you can be 100% sure. If I were you, I know I'd want that knowledge even though I never intend to breed dogs. It's so common to want to know what breed or breeds go into your dog, that there are multiple dog-DNA-testing services to choose from. We had both of our rescue mutts tested, just out of our own curiosity (though admittedly I'm not sure how accurate all of those tests are). But think of how lucky you are: your dog's sire's DNA is on record with the AKC! You can have true, undeniable proof that your dog is a purebred GSD if you choose to get it.

In order to breed and have your dog's pups registered with the AKC, I believe you need a full registration. Do you have one? Obtaining that and DNA would be my first steps, if I were you. And of course working for the titles that many others have discussed in previous threads with you. But without the full registration, to my knowledge, you can't breed the dog and have the pups registered with AKC. You need your breeder's permission to get one if you don't already have it.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I will say this one last time and will be done with feeding under the bridge:

DNA test your dog to both mother and father per request to your breeder.

Request the pedigree of both mother and father.

Research the kennel name and the dogs in the pedigree.

Determine yourself if your dog is purebred.

My treat bag is empty now.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Well too bad the dam doesn't have DNA cuz everyone says u need both so I'll never know if they faked the birth of the dam lol.

K, I get it, it don't matter if it's unethical, just people here hate it, and say I must be because my dog must be impure (most likely, without 100% proof).

So ignore everyone that says don't breed and do it anyway.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Your dog may or may not be a purebred. Most likely she is. Either way she has GSD in her and she'd probably love to get into something like tracking, agility, rally, ect. You may enjoy it too! Regardless of if you want to breed or not it can be a great thing to get involved in. 

And if your end goal is to breed GSDs even if you do or don't breed her it can give you knowledge for future years. My first few dogs are going to be learning dogs for me and then I hope to find a good dog and get into breeding.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Winnal said:


> Obviously the training, temperament is shown within the show, but on the outside, the coat was also very much liked. But mine is clearly a fake impure husky mix. And I guess since then everyone now hates silvertips because they are probably mixed and everyone wants standard now, so white, silver, cream are all garbage to be spayed/neutered.
> 
> That's what I learned from this forum.


Hey, I saw that troup of dogs . Several times , over the years , in demonstrations (promotion)
and on set while filming on Queen E in Toronto .
Multiple takes , over and over and over again to perfect one sequence - in this particular one for the dog to scratch the door of a hardware store and bark.

One dog for running shots . One for barking . Scenes pieced together .

it sure wasn't what you saw in the shows . 

I had the opportunity to breed my female to those dogs back then.
The female I had ended up being 1981 obedience Grand Victrix 199.5/200
She was "scouted" to be the dog in the Police Academy comedic movies -
but she had a litter at the time.

Would I breed to those dogs "now" . Still no.


you have $$$ signs in your eyes.

that's about it .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kazel said:


> Keep in mind we've only seen a picture of the dad and not the mother or the other dogs she is related to. We don't even know what her siblings look like!
> 
> I personally don't really care what color a dog is, especially since I don't plan on doing confirmation. But the standard is in place so your GSD doesn't look like a husky. Or you lab looks like a golden. It is to keep breeds as what they are supposed to be as far as what the creator decided they should look like.
> 
> Color doesn't make your dog any less of a GSD, it simply shouldn't be your only deciding factor. You want to train and do health tests so do those tests! Yes you have a pretty dog, but we also want to see what she's capable of!


Actually, the standard for a breed is more than just the conformation of the dog. It addresses temperament as well. 

Breeding to the standard means producing a dog that will be within a size range, a general appearance, and a general temperament, so that you don't have a GSD that looks like a lab OR acts like a golden. 

Winnal, I only considered the possibility that another dog visited the dam and the litter was mixed. DNA of the pup could dispel that possibility. I did not consider Castlemaid's suggestion that the mother could be a mix. If she is a shepherd/husky or malamute mix, she can look like a shepherd, but have passed on some husky or malamute characteristics to her puppy. And in that case, you would not know for certain even if you did DNA the sire. 

If you post the pedigree, if there are dogs that are listed in the database (possible) we might be able to give you more info by looking up the pedigrees and seeing some of the ancestors' pictures. 

I think in the early days of movies, they picked very light dogs because of how they would show up on the screen. Some of those dogs could do amazing stuff. There is a lot of merit in using this dog for learning and training. She is just a year old, if in 3 years or so, you have done a bajillion things with her and she is super and you still want to have a litter out of her, then you will be going into it with your eyes open.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

selzer said:


> Actually, the standard for a breed is more than just the conformation of the dog. It addresses temperament as well.
> 
> Breeding to the standard means producing a dog that will be within a size range, a general appearance, and a general temperament, so that you don't have a GSD that looks like a lab OR acts like a golden.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would've added more but I'm a bit tired, not thinking clearly. I was going to edit it after I re-read it when I posted but I didn't. There are tons of factors about breeding and the only thing we really know about this dog is it's color. We don't know if parents are titled or anything like that. What the dogs temperament is and all fun stuff like that.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Do your dog a favor and rehome it. Let someone who is going to be happy with it for whatever it is have it.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Winnal said:


> Well too bad the dam doesn't have DNA cuz everyone says u need both so I'll never know if they faked the birth of the dam lol.
> 
> K, I get it, it don't matter if it's unethical, just people here hate it, and say I must be because my dog must be impure (most likely, without 100% proof).
> 
> So ignore everyone that says don't breed and do it anyway.


Not sure why you're throwing a hissy fit all over this forum.

You have been given a lot of very sound advice from people who know this breed inside and out and yet you've argued with them at every turn. I still can't quite figure out how you went from "is my dog purebred?" to "my dog is rare purebred, I will breed her!" to "everyone here hates me and my dog" in less than 24 hours.

Just because you think your dog is swell and can chase rabbits, doesn't mean she's got anything worth passing on to pups. And that's what people here have been trying to tell you. No one has said your dog is bad, they've said prove her worth by trialing and take time to learn about the breed.

Join a local club, work your dog, get a few titles and learn about the breed rather than arguing with people on the internet about how super-awesome and rare your dog is (when you didn't even know if she was purebred as of yesterday morning.)

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Actually, the standard for a breed is more than just the conformation of the dog. It addresses temperament as well.


Which as absolutely nothing to do with her coat.

You haters just keep assuming I don't care about anything else but her coat, when it's just bringing up the question of her purity, then you guys keep saying I don't know anything about breeding if I don't consider anything else but the coat, when I didn't say that at all you guys just shoving words into my mouth. Pathetic.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

kimbale said:


> Not sure why you're throwing a hissy fit all over this forum.
> 
> You have been given a lot of very sound advice from people who know this breed inside and out and yet you've argued with them at every turn. I still can't quite figure out how you went from "is my dog purebred?" to "my dog is rare purebred, I will breed her!" to "everyone here hates me and my dog" in less than 24 hours.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the fact that you get all mad because I first tried to find out her "non-standard" coat is pure or mix, then people said she could be pure because of another breeder, as well as me having an pedigree with a DNA'd sire and white and black/silver coat on the mom side.

Yeah just cause I can learn fast and change from one topic to another doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I gained knowledge necessary, and made a new post legitimately, you just want to get on my case about it because I have so much to say and so many people want to doubt me/my dog.

Your tone/attitude is just a hater in general, I can tell from a mile away, constantly dismissive, completely ignoring the fact about anything else I said I wanted to do about breeding other than being focused on the coat only. You're just mad I said "rare" and you took it offensively, because you have a low esteem or something.

And I never said that just because the dog is swell and fast, big ears, big head, biggest pup in her litter, doesn't mean I mean that's all that is needed to be good to breed. You people just always assume completely dismissively, when it just shows *potential, *do you know what the definition of that is?

In case you people haven't noticed, all I have been doing is relay what people have told me here, and then I end up being told the opposite, over and over. First I asked if she was pure, people said no, then some said yes, then I said okay, so perhaps yes, if so then it's certainly not the "usual" "standard" coat (is that better? Not "rare" because that makes you edgy right?) then I went to ask about breeding if she is indeed pure then now I want to know how to start trialing her and training her and testing her temperament, etc to determine her breed-ability, *not based solely on her coat*. Then everyone started just hating hard and saying she's definitely not pure and everything, then I repeat what you guys say, once again (test for hypocrisy and contradictory) and what do you know? Now people want to say she could be pure again.

Get real.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Winnal said:


> Which as absolutely nothing to do with her coat.
> 
> You haters just keep assuming I don't care about anything else but her coat, when it's just bringing up the question of her purity, then you guys keep saying I don't know anything about breeding if I don't consider anything else but the coat, when I didn't say that at all you guys just shoving words into my mouth. Pathetic.


I wasn't responding to your post at all, I was responding to Kazel's because it mentioned The GSD Standard, but only mentioned conformation, where the standard actually begins with Temperament. 

We talk about "the standard" and it just occurred to me, that someone not in the know, might be thinking we are just saying something like, "the standard German Shepherd will be between 75 and 90 pounds."  But, forgive me if you already know this, The Standard is actually an approved blueprint of what the dog ought to be. The SV has one, and the AKC has one, and for the most part they are the same. Breeders breeding to The Standard are not breeding to what in their minds is a standard GSD or an ideal GSD, it is an actual document that describes temperament, structure, size, coloring, etc. 

GSD people understand that most GSDs simply will not meet the standard in one or more ways. There are disqualifying faults, like drop ears, and a nose not predominately black, and any dog that attempts to bite the judge, etc. And for a breeder to breed a dog with a disqualifying fault, save maybe a white dog, that is considered really unethical. Mostly the dogs when compared to the standard fail in one or more ways, and we get the overall impression of the dog, if it is a little over-sized, but has a lot to offer, than we may see what it produces. If it has a long coat, but is otherwise a stellar example, and so forth. These are not disqualifying faults and the dogs are unlikely to produce a disqualifying fault, but the will probably not improve the breed in the area where they do not fall within the standard unless bred to a dog that improves that trait. And that is what decent breeders try to do. They scrutinize their dogs and try to figure out where they lack and try to find a mate that is correct in that respect and will hopefully bring that in.

Kennel-blind breeders, and people who have awesome pets generally cannot evaluate their dogs with a critical eye, and just say their animal is perfect and they should definitely breed them. And maybe they are breed-worthy, but without the ability to honestly assess them because you cannot pass up your own bias, you will not try to find a mate that complements them, and are likely to pick a dog out of convenience who looks perfect because you are desperate to find a male, any male for your bitch, to make these wonderful puppies. Trust me that good breeders are not going to just let you mate to their excellent dogs because when your bitch produces mediocre puppies, their dog gets blamed for throwing puppies with health or conformation problems. And the few hundred bucks they can get for the stud fee is not worth that for them.


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## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> I wasn't responding to your post at all, I was responding to Kazel's because it mentioned The GSD Standard, but only mentioned conformation, where the standard actually begins with Temperament.
> 
> We talk about "the standard" and it just occurred to me, that someone not in the know, might be thinking we are just saying something like, "the standard German Shepherd will be between 75 and 90 pounds." But, forgive me if you already know this, The Standard is actually an approved blueprint of what the dog ought to be. The SV has one, and the AKC has one, and for the most part they are the same. Breeders breeding to The Standard are not breeding to what in their minds is a standard GSD or an ideal GSD, it is an actual document that describes temperament, structure, size, coloring, etc.
> 
> ...


The point is, my dog could have non-standard coat so no conformity, but can have "standard" temperament, that you cannot just see from her coat (obviously) you have to test and evaluate her. You think I didn't know that? That's what I'm here to find out after figuring out if she's pure, and you guys wanna act like I don't know and only care about coat.



> Kennel-blind breeders, and people who have awesome pets generally cannot evaluate their dogs with a critical eye, and just say their animal is perfect and they should definitely breed them.


 Once again, making assumptions that I think my dog is perfect with a "critical eye", when did I ever say just by looking you can tell this? I said there are signs on the surface you have to dig deeper to prove it, with proper trials and training.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A reminder that the Personal Bickering policy still stands:


Castlemaid said:


> Lately there has been a lot of posts being nothing but personal bickering between individuals with snarky and attacking comments, and general comments aimed at attacking certain board members. These personal fights can go on quite some length in bringing posts completely off topic, creating a negative atmosphere, and alienating new members and creating extra work for the mods.
> 
> Mods will delete offending posts, and give a public warning to stop the childishness as sending private warnings to a large number of individuals is impractical.
> 
> ...


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...es/558506-personal-bickering.html#post6924666

Time-outs will be issued without previous warnings. Repeated time-outs may result in a permanent ban from the board.


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