# Downhill after new trainer.....



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Finally I got to meet the trainer 2 days ago. First off this guy didn't have an controlled area (like I thought) to work with a fear aggressive, leash reactive dog. He took me to outside a dog park, an area where there was tons of dogs around comming one place to the other. My dog's first reaction was extreme panic and even bark, lunged (back up), at the trainer because the trainer came straight forward allmost in his face (yeah he did bend down for a second to give a treat). My dog doesn't have problems with humans, but the fact he was panicking allready with the all the dogs around that he was in super defence mode and reacted to everything. 

((((( I forgot to write you guys my dog has another problem that my dog doesn't easily adapt to new situations (I did took him EVERYWHERE possible when he was pup, and as a adult, but was never able to adapt well. So I stopped for a while now) he just get to easily stressed.)))))

Well the guy asked me lots of questions, and one of them was what type of counter conditioning I have been doing. I am not expert but I told him that I would pop a treat in his mouth when he looked at other dogs, at a underthreshold distance. At one point he would have never accepted the treats from, me but I got to the point that I could slowly lay them on the ground and the dog would never look back up at the dog to sniff out the treats. The guy imediatly told me that we are going to another type of counter conditioning. Which mean I have to wait for my dog looks at the dog I say good boy, and walk off by making an arch. Without saying a command Let's Go. I have allways used a nice happy lets go, leave it, go sniff, hand touch, Yes, or what ever, but the guy was explaining the dog needs to learn how to follow my movement, and my dog can't be allways in training. Which to me he is not in training when I ask these things because he knows them so well, and listens every time. 

The thing is that I allways did walked in arch manner if there was another dog near by. So it wasn't really anything new. The only thing that I cue him to follow along, plus in a less stressful enviroment my dog follows me. When he is stressed my dog isn't able to understand anything.

My problem is that I probley did taught the dog to be too handler focus, and not able to choose for himself to be calm, but without me telling him what to do he doesn't do it when he is stressed. He is able to run in circles not able to calm down if I don't cue him to get into a relaxed down. He doesn't go to sniff by himself if he is stressed out. I am pretty much forced to cue him to try to try to get him back to normal. When I go to other people's house and bring him along he gets so nervous that if I bring him a mat where I conditioned the mat to be a relaxing place and cue him to go on it and he is then able to then calm down, and get back to himself. The trainer says I read too much books, and need to be like an owner that does less where there dog, and I need to be less concentrated on my dog.

Well back to what I was saying imediatly my dog started to lunge, bark, and ect. At other dogs.. I was thinking "great". The guy told me to stop using treats, and don't bring them along anymore on walks. To start make use of using only calming signals (which I have allways made shure to make shure to use them in the start). He was wanting to do his style of counter conditioning that he was talking about... allways overthreshold. Even got us walking in a middle of the street with cars passing by. What a crazy situation. Then he told us to start using a regular harness, no collar, no easy walk professional. I was thinking in my head "Yeah harness great what ever but when a huge German Shepherd happens to lunge with a harness I will never control him". 

As a homework he told me to bring him around lots of dogs, work on "not" training, to take him lots of places, and buy him a harness. The thing is I did all that stuff before! It makes the whole situation lots worst for him. Plus he said there was no reason to let my dog rest after a stressful event, and it he can go on walk after a stressful event.. well the day after I took him out, and did what he said didn't bring treats, and took him on a long walk. There he went over threshold millions of times at a certain point a older lady bumped into him, and my dog was so scared, nervous from the whole situation my dog started to whimper like crazy, and I had all these people come up to me saying that I need to control my dog, that he is dangerous, that he needs a muzzle on, it was so crazy my dog didn't even wanted to attack, he was wanting to escape. I took him back home, and decided to make him rest for these next days.

I feel so upset about all the hardwork done is just ruined by this guy. I am just going to wait til I move back to America next year find him a really good veterinary behaviorist, and training facility to work at over there. I have talked to many trainers, and had bad results over here. That I want to keep on doing what I am doing for now, and find then hire someone. At this point I would not be suprised if he has to go on some medication.

One last thing I asked this guy if genetics had anything to do with it? He says no, has nothing to do with it. What do you guys think?

Any advice? What are my mistakes? Is there a way I can have him accept, and cope from stress in new situations? Sorry if I am being annoying with so many posts!:help:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I am going to be polite....it is very difficult to give advice on behavior when you really don't know the motivating reasons AND the severity of the problem. I mean it could be primarily genetics, it could be lack of socialization, it could be a combination of both, it could be inept but well intentioned ownership/handling. Depending on what is pushing the envelope, often decides the tools in the chest to use or advice to give. I have personally only ever used treats to teach sit, down, heel, come and stay. I have never used treats to address address things once the dog is in a state that the drive or behavior is stronger than the desire for a treat. Doesn't mean that treats can't be used to cure all ills, as I have often seen stated.....but that's not my approach. You have tools like redirecting, extinguishing, managing, flight, physical correction, prompts, and many others that can be used depending on what you see. Truthfully, along with genetics, and socialization, the biggest problem I run into with behaviors with dogs is from the owners/handlers. You got owners that often do not use common sense approaches to basic problems; and the new creation I have found which is people trying and believing things they have read on the Internet. The problem with the Internet is twofold, one when advice is given it has to be the right advice for that particular dog or situation. One way does not treat all,(including positive only), second, the Internet doesn't show the correct application of the advice and the ability to read the dog to apply techniques timely, so as to not give the dog mixed messages. You don't know how often I will ask a client to demonstrate giving treats to their dog for a given problem and when viewed they are actually rewarding something different in the dogs mind. They don't even realize what is happening except the dog is not improving. 
I don't know what the trainer saw in your case, I don't know how competent the trainer is, I know more about your perspective because I have read your posts, but in the end your best bet will be from someone who can get on page with you and your dog with a good assessment and proper tool, and good application from you. This can only happen in person. Jmo.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if you have a fearful dog, the worst thing you can do is throw him into situations that he is not prepared for. i can't imagine taking a dog like this to a dog park, to much at once. one step at a time. i think your trainer should have been working with you two on focus and training so the dog can trust and follow you. confrontations with one dog at a time and the right type of dog. slow exposure to things one at a time, with not alot going on, so you can be calm and handle things. over exposure when you and your dog are not prepared can make things much worse. he will react and repeat that scared reaction and will repeat what works, unless you change and work under his threshold.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I have a reactive dog. Tried the positive only approach. Tried high value treats but like Cliffson said....once the dog's desire for something is stronger than the desire for a treat....forget about it. When it came to reactivity, treats never worked. I am liking what my new trainer has me doing. A couple of commands that MUST be obeyed no matter what....."fuss", "sit", and "platz". Those 3 commands along with a prong collar are all I need to get control of Stella when she decides to act out. We have in the past few days encountered many dogs. She still wants to react by barking and lunging but I have been able to stop it. The big thing now is to get her to focus more on me. And I have seen great improvement even with that. In the past when she got reactive I could have been dressed in bacon fat waving filet mignons around and she wouldn't have looked at me! Now she will sit, look at me, and not just stare at the other dog. This isn't perfect yet but we are working on it.
Oh I should add that the trainer had Stella and me working on just obeying those 3 commands in very controlled situations before he thought I could handle Stella on a walk.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

katdog5911 said:


> A couple of commands that MUST be obeyed no matter what . . .


That's been what I've been working with on Rey. "Stay," and "focus" (focus on me, that is). It is helping and those words usually seem to get her attention, even when she's freaked out. So my repetitive nightly (and I mean we NEVER miss a night) of training, adding distractions and saying "nope" when she fails to "stay" and making her start all over is slowly but surely paying off a bit. It's kind of funny. When she fails and starts too soon on a "stay" and I say "nope," I don't even have to make her go back to the starting spot anymore. She sighs, and goes back, then sighs again at the next "stay" command.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Goodmorning everyone! Thank you so much for all the replies. Cliff don't worry about it=). You know I don't consider myself a master dog trainer for shure some mistakes I am doing some where, and lots of mistakes I have allready done.

My dog has a pretty rock solid stop, stay, down, and ect commands. We worked alot on impulse control. Luckly once I was tying my shoe, and some guy ranned into us from behind wanted to make his dog say hi to mine. There my boy went about to lunge towards the dog, and luckly I cued him to stop, and he didn't move forward (yard away). Of course if the dog went towards him he probley would have not listen to me anymore, because of his anxiety. But I do have comands like Sit is sit intel I release him, Down means sphynx down, Giu means relax down, Stand means stand no crowching ahead, and when I ask him these commands he does them beautifuly, and with a willingness. I don't use, and show him the treats. I reward better, and better results everytime. Sometimes I reward him with a fun cue,for example my dog loves to spin in circles on cue. When he does something I like, I reward him with a cue that is really reinforcing that is all he needs. When a while ago I was able to get his attention a few yard away from another dog, yeah I did Jackpotted him. But the treat thing does seem to work for us. It really depends on his stress levels really he doesn't take them if he is stressed, and takes him when he is well rested. I don't really have problems with any commands, it is this fear/stress issue I really want to conquer. I just want him to get better with all this =(

I don't really consider him a dangerous dog ..yet, because he has a really good bite inhibition. I taught that when he was a pup, and I never seen him bite through another dog's skin... but you never know he might do one day, and learn that is the best way to keep dogs away. Fear is a terrible thing.

I think what is causing all this fear issues is my fault, because I met a "fake" trainer and when my dog was a puppy this guy taught me to do lots positive punishment I mean all the time if the pup didn't watch me I need to correct it, if the pup didn't walk at my side I need to correct, if the pup tries to do anything that I didn't want to I was supposed to correct it (I wish I can go back in time, and fix all that). I never hit the dog but I did lots of jerking on his collar, and yelling. 

Plus I never had him go to controlled play groups. I would take him out all the time with millions of dogs durring the "socialization period" and afterwards, but never watched... I would be allways chating with the other owners.. I did take him everywhere everyday, trains, busses, metro, new parks every day, stores, but I never taught him to rest, and explore the enviroment more. Plus every day I would put him in stressful situations, and never gave him a cool down time at home. 

I think I over did it when he was a pup, and that "fake" trainer ruined us alot... luckly I did fix things on time some by internet, some by millions of books I have, some by the dog training course I am taking, and some because I am starting to study pychology.... but lots of these things I learn where just too late I guess... I stop jerking the leash, and stop using anything that is like choke chain. Because when I do my dog shuts down, does lots of avoidance behavior, doesn't respond anymore, even if I raise my voice he then runs into the crate to hide. Like I said I never kicked him. I never raised a finger. Just all the jerking, and my voice being associated together really did affect him.

So now I pretty much use positive reinforcement. I got an amazing relationship with him, and he isn't scared of me. He has a low confidence, and the more I try to make him more confident the better he seems to be.

I just really upset by this last trainer I was really hoping the whole thing was going to work.. I was day dreaming control dog play sessions, controlled counter conditioning settings, and ect...These guys where the only positive trainers in my area that I know of. I guess this guy is too rugass for me. I don't have nothing against the lady. I like her work, but I don't live in the middle of the country. Stress is a normal thing in life.. I just can't understand how mine can not support stress... I wonder if it is ever possible. The whole thing is pretty upsetting if he keeps on feeling fear, this dog is never going to get better. So I feel like the guy just put us a hundred steps back in our work that was going okay, but the only good thing I got with this guy I need to do less, but not too less. *sigh* *sigh* *sigh*

I only want a good trainer to work with, and I can't find them over here that offers to do this work. I know one lady that is famous in the obedience realm, and she is my dog training course teacher... taught me lots I know and the lady open my mind.. . she knows everything, and anything but she doesn't rehabilitate dogs. So intel I go to the States I have to deal just being on my own.. I have talked to other trainers that used non positive methods that didn't work too. 

Thank you guys for your advice! When I get a response I feel like I am not alone. I have lots of problems over here when I talk to people because of language diffrences! :hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

it may take a while to find the right trainer. don't be bashful about checking them out, watching them work with other people and dogs that are having the same issues as yours. any trainer should not mind you observing them. you have to be confortable with whats going on in training in order to be successful. if you are training with someone you have doubts about its going to rub off on your dog. sometimes SchH folks might be able to help, if you have a club nearby. all depends on the type of club, etc. especially if you are working on strict Obedience and focus. if you do have a local club see if you can go observe and ask if you can join and do the Obedience part and maybe the tracking which is a good sport for a dog like your. the tracking activity can build a bond and help with alot of things. with my FA dog general training folks at kennels etc, were not the answer, alot of them did not have experience beyond general pet training and did not have alot of experience with special needs dogs with certain issues.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@prockerb....:thumbup:, I respect you for tour candid assessment of your past and past actions....dealing with problems with our dogs should be rooted in professional approaches and not emotional responses and feelings driving the answers. You see that so much on this forum....and it's actually the first clue to me about the knowledge base of the poster. There is ample time to provide love and kisses in our pets life....but when it comes to problems and training....we need it to be consistent and neutral based. We want to have dogs that are confident as possible and not dependent on our feelings on a sleeve.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm surprised that this trainer sounded like he was saying that your dog shouldn't be looking to you when it's uncertain. One thing I can tell you... you want your dog looking to you. When it doesn't, IMO, then it's going to be making its own decisions about how to respond when afraid and those may well be bad decisions. There may have been bad decisions in the past, but it sounds like you now recognize a good trainer from one you don't agree with. Right or wrong, if you're not on the same page as the trainer you're going to have problems. The dog will feel your hesitance, and cause confusion. If someone wants to train in a way I have an issue with, I want to know WHY they want to do things this way. I'm always open to new things, but I have to understand the 'why'. Working with a soft dog is hard for me. I've only had one, but I had a hard time 'switching gears'. Training should only start (when you're working with behavioral issues) after the dog has been evaluated at length, and a plan developed. What works for one dog may not work with another. I hope you can find someone that you can get on board with to help you and your dog. No one will know your dog better than you. Just stay open to all methods, but don't do any without understanding the 'why'.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think your on the right track, very good advice on this one. and yes, the biggest thing is taking a look at yourself and making changes there. a good trainer can put you and your dog in siuations and tell you what you need to change about what your doing. we cannot see what we are doing with our dog for the most part so much easier for an objective person to see. but if you know you need to change things in yourself with handling your dog, thats half the battle.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Go back to what you were doing before this guy. I have a book by Patricia McConnell that talks about the hormones that are released when a dog is afraid and they stay in the system for several days. If you keep subjecting the dog to the same stressful situations everyday, those hormones building until your dog is insane with fear. Okay, those are my words, but you need to give the dog a rest.

I think it was this book. The Cautious Canine How to Conquer Their Fears
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Cautious-Canine-How-Conquer-Their-Fears/dp/1891767003/ref=la_B001ILMAOY_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1349957380&sr=1-2[/ame]


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Awe thanks Cliffson I take that as a compliment! It took me a really long time before I realise my mistakes it was a hard thing, and I do feel lots is my fault. 

Jag I allways thought that looking at me was good thing too.. He says I need to let my dog explore, and look at other dogs. Well I do let him, if I know he isn't going over threshold.

I am still upset about the trainer.. the guy wrote me a message asking when we where going to meet up.. I have to admit within my mind I was wanting to tell him off in really bad way but I have been polite to him, and I told him I had things to do.

I like that Cautious Canine book I still have to buy it. I have others from Patricia that chick is amazing!!!

Thanks guys for the advice... little by little we are getting back to our ruotine. It is really hard to me to think that a week passed, and still I can't get him back to "normal" like he was before. Today he reacted again, so he is back on rest again. *sigh*


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