# Genetics come from Dam?



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

I've heard that 70% of the traits in a puppy come from the Dam and not Sire, is this true?

*Please move this if this is in the wrong forum


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

It's my understanding that 50% of genetics come from the dam and 50% come from the sire...but the dam can imprint the puppy with certain behaviors. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I asked the same thing because my puppy's sire was more social and the dam was more reserved. While my dog is social is some situations, he's reserved in others. I think I asked if my dog was more on the social side genetically, could the dam imprinting the litter have made him more reserved. I'm still not sure. LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think it's that simple. It would depend on recessive genes, maternal genes, paternal genes, dominant genes.

For instance, color. puppies get one gene from each parent. But black is recessive so unless the other parent has a black gene that puppy can never be black. So even if the puppy gets a gene, it might make zero difference.

If you google that question, you'll find some pretty interesting information.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

During mating, 50% of the genes come from the sire, and 50% from the dam. Which genes will be EXPRESSED (actually show up in the dog's temperament and appearance) depends entirely on what genes are present. Some genes are dominant, others recessive. Certain coat colours are good examples of recessive genes - they only show up if both parents have that particular gene, and pass it on to the offspring.

Other than that, the puppies are influenced by the dam's behaviour, and learn certain things from her.

As some posters have said elsewhere, breeding is more of an art than a science. The dogs close up in the pedigree will have the biggest influence on the genetics of the offspring. However, certain dogs have a reputation for being prepotent - their traits defy the scientific genetic odds, and still keep show up even though they are many generations back.

It's also important to look at how many times a certain dog is present in the pedigree. Some dogs show up a ridiculous number of times in pedigrees - American show line pedigrees almost always have Lance of Fran-Jo and his offspring appearing many times, and for German show lines, it's usually Quanto, Canto and Palme v. Wildsteiger Land. This is called backmassing, and it can really cause problems if the dogs in question carry harmful genes. For instance, Canto carried the gene for hemophilia, which is no doubt why he lived only 4 years. Careful genetic screening has now pretty much eliminated the gene from the population, but at the time, it caused a lot of heartbreak for GSD owners and breeders.

Due to backmassing on affected dogs, some undesirable genes become fixed in a population, and are almost impossible to get rid of. Some breeds have had to outcross to dogs outside of their registry to bring in new blood (basenjis are one example) others just live with the trait, and try to breed the animals that are least affected by it (collie eye, present in over 80% of Scotch collies).

This story about Old Blue helps explain what happens when just one popular dog starts dominating ALL of the pedigrees in a breed:



> The Fable of Old Blue
> by C.A. Sharp editor of the "Double Helix Network News"
> 
> 
> ...


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Hello all. I have not posted here in a long time. I have a 7 month old pup that is inbred 1-2 on his father. However, to me he looks like his mother. What does this mean? I really don't know but at least for him, it seams that his mother is a stronger influence. (But his mother is also his half sister, so who really knows, maybe he is a bad example).


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

robk said:


> Hello all. I have not posted here in a long time. I have a 7 month old pup that is inbred 1-2 on his father. However, to me he looks like his mother. What does this mean? I really don't know but at least for him, it seams that his mother is a stronger influence. (But his mother is also his half sister, so who really knows, maybe he is a bad example).


Would you mind sharing your puppy’s pedigree? Maybe someone here will have some insight about why you see so much of his dam in him.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

GypsyGhost said:


> Would you mind sharing your puppy’s pedigree? Maybe someone here will have some insight about why you see so much of his dam in him.


Because of the potential of anything posted here showing up in a future google search, I am hesitant to post his pedigree. However, if anyone is interested, I will be happy to share via PM.
Rob


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

robk said:


> Because of the potential of anything posted here showing up in a future google search, I am hesitant to post his pedigree. However, if anyone is interested, I will be happy to share via PM.
> Rob


Understandable! Could you please PM it to me?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

GypsyGhost said:


> Would you mind sharing your puppy’s pedigree? Maybe someone here will have some insight about why you see so much of his dam in him.





GypsyGhost said:


> Understandable! Could you please PM it to me?


Sent


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Me too. Curious.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

me too please?


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

robk said:


> Hello all. I have not posted here in a long time. I have a 7 month old pup that is inbred 1-2 on his father. However, to me he looks like his mother. What does this mean? I really don't know but at least for him, it seams that his mother is a stronger influence. (But his mother is also his half sister, so who really knows, maybe he is a bad example).


It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean the dam has a stronger influence. What it means is that it's a father to daughter breeding, if I'm understanding correctly, and while you're doubling up on dad you're still not cloning him. 

What about his appearance looks more like Mom? His size? His head? His color? These traits are in both parents. This can get real murky real quick so let's just keep it simple by saying any of these traits can come from either parent whether expressed or not and why they're expressed in your pup is anyone's guess.

For me to say one dog is a stronger producer than another I'd have to see a consistent trend across multiple dogs and multiple breedings.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

thegooseman90 said:


> robk said:
> 
> 
> > Hello all. I have not posted here in a long time. I have a 7 month old pup that is inbred 1-2 on his father. However, to me he looks like his mother. What does this mean? I really don't know but at least for him, it seams that his mother is a stronger influence. (But his mother is also his half sister, so who really knows, maybe he is a bad example).
> ...


I am not a breeder and I am not arguing with anybody. All I am saying is that he does not look at all like his daddy. Color, head shape and body type take after mom. Size, well he is small and both parents are normal. I am sure his small size is from his inbreeding but he is also still young and may yet still go through a growth spurt bringing him closer to with in a standard range.

By the way, I tried to those people who are interested in his pedigree, I will try to pm it later when pedigreedatabase starts working again. For some reason I can’t get it to come up.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Head size, shape, color, etc can all come from Mom. They can also come from dad. In fact they could've been given to Mom from dad and then passed down to her brother son. 

In order to say Mom is the stronger producer we'd need evidence, even if it's only anectdotal. We'd need to see Mom produce these traits consistently thru multiple litters with different studs.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

thegooseman90 said:


> Head size, shape, color, etc can all come from Mom. They can also come from dad. In fact they could've been given to Mom from dad and then passed down to her brother son.
> 
> In order to say Mom is the stronger producer we'd need evidence, even if it's only anectdotal. We'd need to see Mom produce these traits consistently thru multiple litters with different studs.


I am sure you are right. I am not a breeder. My dog is probably a bad example.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why don't you contact the dam's breeder and ask more about her lines. She is super nice.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Even when inbred a dog can resemble one line or a parent or grandparent more than other dogs. The mother of my Nike was from a 1/2 brother/sister inbreeding. She did not resemble the dog she was inbred on or her mother or father, actually, but more a type known farther back in her pedigree. I have had many old time breeders tell me that my dogs tend to resemble the mother type of my lines and that type comes down through Nike and not her mother (the inbred dog). 

I have found that it isn't unusual for dogs of certain coat colors to follow the looks of the parent of the same color (or grandparent).


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

*what does this pedigree mean ?*

What does that mean in a pedigree ? What does "wright" and "Hardiman's" and "5-5" mean ? 

Still learning how to read pedigrees


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Physically, it just depends on which genes he gets from which parent, sire/dam, 50/50. But characterwise, there is nature and nurture. Puppies get imprinted by their dam. So if you have a timid/shy bitch, lacking in nerve, or overly sharp, it would be much more likely to have a pup that had serious flaws in character/temperament. They say that it starts in utero, I don't know, but once those puppies have their eyes and ears open, for sure, if the bitch wigs out when the door bell rings, or at the lawn mower, or in thunder storms, I think you will have puppies with trouble. Since the sense of smell pre-dates the eyes and ears, it is possible that even before 10 days in, the bitch can be imprinting the nervousness on her puppies.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cezcal20 said:


> What does that mean in a pedigree ? What does "wright" and "Hardiman's" and "5-5" mean ?
> 
> Still learning how to read pedigrees


5-5 is the generation that the dog has in common in his/her pedigree. So fifth generation back.
this thread explains the Wright/Hardiman percentage:

New linebreeding feature - Page 1

Wright?s Coefficient of Inbreeding - The Institute of Canine Biology


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> 5-5 is the generation that the dog has in common in his/her pedigree. So fifth generation back.
> This thread explains the wright/hardiman percentage:
> 
> new linebreeding feature - page 1
> ...


thank you !!!!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> Physically, it just depends on which genes he gets from which parent, sire/dam, 50/50. But characterwise, there is nature and nurture. Puppies get imprinted by their dam. So if you have a timid/shy bitch, lacking in nerve, or overly sharp, it would be much more likely to have a pup that had serious flaws in character/temperament. They say that it starts in utero, I don't know, but once those puppies have their eyes and ears open, for sure, if the bitch wigs out when the door bell rings, or at the lawn mower, or in thunder storms, I think you will have puppies with trouble. Since the sense of smell pre-dates the eyes and ears, it is possible that even before 10 days in, the bitch can be imprinting the nervousness on her puppies.


I agree with this 100%!
That’s why I can never understand people breeding weak or soft females?*♀......I don’t care who their parents are, how pretty, how well they move, or how sentimental they are to you...they will negatively impact the whole litter.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sunsilver said:


> During mating, 50% of the genes come from the sire, and 50% from the dam. Which genes will be EXPRESSED (actually show up in the dog's temperament and appearance) depends entirely on what genes are present. Some genes are dominant, others recessive. Certain coat colours are good examples of recessive genes - they only show up if both parents have that particular gene, and pass it on to the offspring.
> 
> Other than that, the puppies are influenced by the dam's behaviour, and learn certain things from her.
> 
> ...



the same thing is happening in the WL with certain dogs - primarily Fero ZH....some of his sons and grandsons are becoming heavily backmassed upon as well including Yoshey/Troll, Olex/Nick - I recently look at a proposed breeding with Fero ZH 17 times in 8 generations......Tom and Falk are fast approaching overload, and Mink is heavy as well - but no where near the Fero lines. And I see temperament issues, EPI, hips, etc and find backmassing on Fero in every one I look at.....a very very very unpopular observation LOL LOL.....I have several Fero free dogs - just lost one at 14+ who was healthy as a horse for her whole life and the male she was bred to for my K's, also Fero free, just passed at nearly 15...also healthy.


Lee

I reall


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wolfstraum, I am very much aware of that and that's why I am avoiding those lines in trying to choose a suitable mate for my WL female. A little bit in the pedigree is okay, but a lot is not. (And she DOES have those dogs present, but is only 6-6 on Fero.)

Over all, there is very little line breeding in her pedigree, but one of the dogs she's linebred on is Pike v. von der Schafbachmühle. I found out recently even HE carries some problems you don't want to see in your lines, such as transitional vertebrae! So, that's another dog I am trying to avoid doubling or tripling up on in choosing a stud.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

In my experience, working line breeders seem to be more aware of the dangers caused by relying too much on certain popular sires. Usually, you see less backmassing/inbreeding in WL pedigrees, though the current drive to produce points dogs for schutzhund is causing certain lines to become overly popular.

Here's a quote from Prager (Alpine K9)


> One of the reason why there is not much linebreeding done on Norbo is because he is very dominant in some desirable traits and less dominant in some undesirable traits. We like him to pass on the progeny the desirable and eliminate the undesirable. In this case that is best done by type breeding. By linebreeding you would strengthen desirable but unfortunately also the undesirable traits. I have made that mistake and that is how I have learned about it.


Of course, that is also why it is very important to consider the female's strengths and weaknesses when breeding, so she can compensate for the male's weak areas.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> I agree with this 100%!
> That’s why I can never understand people breeding weak or soft females?*♀......I don’t care who their parents are, how pretty, how well they move, or how sentimental they are to you...they will negatively impact the whole litter.


I agree. Out of my first litter I had Babs and Jenna. Babs is more decorated with titles than Jenna is, but she is the more submissive, weaker of the two. Good worker, though. And I did breed her three times, two different stud dogs. The first litter, was a dud. It was not uniform because the dog was a mixture of lines, and I was not pleased at all with the litter. I still have two bitches from that litter. They are 9. They have never been bred. 

I bred her to a German Showline dog and I got a very uniform litter of three pups, two males and a female. I sold them all. I got the bitch back at about 6 months, they thought she was hard and dominant. She was not. She was too soft, actually. She lived out her life with me and I never bred the dam or her again. But I had bred the bitch back to back that time and she gave me a singleton male who was homed by the stud owner, and the owner had some trouble with reactivity. I hear he is doing ok now. 

Nevertheless, Babs' line ended. Intelligent, obedient, good worker, easy to train, loyal, just a little too soft. And she passed that on. That said, she is not gun-shy, doesn't have problem with thunderstorms and other noises and things, she doesn't need valiums to go to the vet for anywhere else. She has herding ability, is good with horses, and excellent with children. But probably should not have been bred.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> the same thing is happening in the WL with certain dogs - primarily Fero ZH....some of his sons and grandsons are becoming heavily backmassed upon as well including Yoshey/Troll, Olex/Nick - I recently look at a proposed breeding with Fero ZH 17 times in 8 generations......Tom and Falk are fast approaching overload, and Mink is heavy as well - but no where near the Fero lines. And I see temperament issues, EPI, hips, etc and find backmassing on Fero in every one I look at.....a very very very unpopular observation LOL LOL.....I have several Fero free dogs - just lost one at 14+ who was healthy as a horse for her whole life and the male she was bred to for my K's, also Fero free, just passed at nearly 15...also healthy.
> 
> 
> Lee
> ...


Lee, you are exactly right! 
If you were to look it up I said this same thing at least 8-10 years ago on this forum, and I made some WL people mad at me, knickers blown up, because I was criticizing the breeding trend in WL at that time.( of course the SL people ignored it because they wanted exclusive dibs on hating what I say on breeding..haha)
But it’s ten years later and the WL people are traveling the same road as others in breeding except it’s not for color or angulation, it’s for the almighty prey drive. 
Time tells all!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> I agree. Out of my first litter I had Babs and Jenna. Babs is more decorated with titles than Jenna is, but she is the more submissive, weaker of the two. Good worker, though. And I did breed her three times, two different stud dogs. The first litter, was a dud. It was not uniform because the dog was a mixture of lines, and I was not pleased at all with the litter. I still have two bitches from that litter. They are 9. They have never been bred.
> 
> I bred her to a German Showline dog and I got a very uniform litter of three pups, two males and a female. I sold them all. I got the bitch back at about 6 months, they thought she was hard and dominant. She was not. She was too soft, actually. She lived out her life with me and I never bred the dam or her again. But I had bred the bitch back to back that time and she gave me a singleton male who was homed by the stud owner, and the owner had some trouble with reactivity. I hear he is doing ok now.
> 
> Nevertheless, Babs' line ended. Intelligent, obedient, good worker, easy to train, loyal, just a little too soft. And she passed that on. That said, she is not gun-shy, doesn't have problem with thunderstorms and other noises and things, she doesn't need valiums to go to the vet for anywhere else. She has herding ability, is good with horses, and excellent with children. But probably should not have been bred.


Selzer, you and I often see things differently on the breed, training, and training tools, but I really respect your honesty and truthfulness in working/breeding your dogs. And in my humble book, that is a better quality than knowledge in some cases.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Lee, you are exactly right!
> If you were to look it up I said this same thing at least 8-10 years ago on this forum, and I made some WL people mad at me, knickers blown up, because I was criticizing the breeding trend in WL at that time.( of course the SL people ignored it because they wanted exclusive dibs on hating what I say on breeding..haha)
> But it’s ten years later and the WL people are traveling the same road as others in breeding except it’s not for color or angulation, it’s for the almighty prey drive.
> Time tells all!



I said it 10 years ago as well - and saw several dogs with Fero very veyr close - had bought a male whose 2nd dam was by Fero and saw so many from his dam lines who leaked drive like crazy and had tons of health issues...he had Pannus, like his dam, 2nd dam and so many of his female family....loved him of course, but was wary of breeding him .....so bred to his sire! Fero free...then Scheld warned me about using Fero when I had Fero free females - I have been unpopular for years due to my trying to keep some dogs Fero free.....of course, I have ended up having to use some males with a Fero connection due to N litter Equidius being in so many Czech dogs! And gotten some terrific pups through that but trying to find a Fero free male is hard!!! And my Fero free male is litter mate to one of my girls - but am thinking of a 2-3 with him on his dam.....who was nearly flawless....nearly!


Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> I agree with this 100%!
> That’s why I can never understand people breeding weak or soft females&#55358;&#56631;*♀......I don’t care who their parents are, how pretty, how well they move, or how sentimental they are to you...they will negatively impact the whole litter.


Exactly!!!! I don't care who their sire is, if they are weak or nervy, or I see a sibling to a stud dog who is a nerve bag - they are off the table.....

A few years back, I was given a pedigree by a very excited guy who had bought a female as a present/investment for his girlfriend....given the pedigree AND the history of the dog (big kennel name, 3 years old, 3 owners, a BH in Europe, 1 litter in US and for sale again) I cautioned the buyer that she could be problematic.....then I saw her work and my expectations of nerviness were far exceeded.....she did get titled with 70s in protection to IPO2, and now bred several times (3? 4 now?). She did produce nerves in most of the pups from what I have seen and heard...one titled by excellent work by helper and handlers and will be bred....so the progression of passing on faulty nerves and temperament goes forward because people WILL NOT acknowledge faults or feel they can overcome those faults....1 pup in 6 is good enough to be titled to IPO3 - so the temperament in the others is disregarded...and the female continues to pump out puppies to be sold by a now well known competitor

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No Fero in Karlo's pedigree...and I believe his sire had more influence on him than his dam. He was bred to Hawks Hunt lines and two pups are more like him, the rest resemble the female he was bred to in temperament and the look. Though both parents were quite similar in temperament, so the pups are all quite similar in that regard.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> I said it 10 years ago as well - and saw several dogs with Fero very veyr close - had bought a male whose 2nd dam was by Fero and saw so many from his dam lines who leaked drive like crazy and had tons of health issues...he had Pannus, like his dam, 2nd dam and so many of his female family....loved him of course, but was wary of breeding him .....so bred to his sire! Fero free...then Scheld warned me about using Fero when I had Fero free females - I have been unpopular for years due to my trying to keep some dogs Fero free.....of course, I have ended up having to use some males with a Fero connection due to N litter Equidius being in so many Czech dogs! And gotten some terrific pups through that but trying to find a Fero free male is hard!!! And my Fero free male is litter mate to one of my girls - but am thinking of a 2-3 with him on his dam.....who was nearly flawless....nearly!
> 
> 
> Lee


This is the reason I started doing Czech/WGWL mixes 15 years ago, along with a major Kennel 8n Czech Republic....because the Czech dogs would cut some of the Fero, And subsequent Troll/Timmy backmassing. Oh how some folks lamented introducing the “ nervy” low drive Czech dogs to the mix. NOW, it’s hard to find top dogs that don’t have some Czech mixed with WGWL....but it’s all good because at least these breeders have introduced some genetic diversity....other lines keep chugging along.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Cliff, this might be a random or non-sensical question, but speaking in the abstract from the 30,000 feet above bird's eye view, where do you prefer to see Fero lined dogs show up in a dog's pedigree?
Basically, where would you rather see the Fero coming through? The sire side or dam side? And which portion of the dam/sire's side? For example, top sire line vs. dam line.
I know this question is probably too broad to answer because you don't know the other parts of the pedigree, but I'm just curious if you have a general preference here and why. Thank you for your time and patience!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

EMH said:


> Cliff, this might be a random or non-sensical question, but speaking in the abstract from the 30,000 feet above bird's eye view, where do you prefer to see Fero lined dogs show up in a dog's pedigree?
> Basically, where would you rather see the Fero coming through? The sire side or dam side? And which portion of the dam/sire's side? For example, top sire line vs. dam line.
> I know this question is probably too broad to answer because you don't know the other parts of the pedigree, but I'm just curious if you have a general preference here and why. Thank you for your time and patience!


Yes, it’s too broad, but it also depends on the Fero line....like Tim Abfhur, Vox Von der Kine, are Fero that I like seeing on Dam’s dam line. But basically, I’m not a big fan of Timmy on dam outline. Some Troll is okay, other Troll not so much. 
Actually, I prefer Fero mostly on sire lines.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks for the reply, Cliff!

I'm curious what you think of or if you could give me some info on the Fero--->Astor vom Ursprung--->Asco vom Klabautermann line. 
I've never seen this Fero line discussed here, but I've noticed some HGH titled dogs with this line in them.


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