# Kraftwerrk K9



## Vega-gurl (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi Everybody-
In surfing the interwebs last night, I stumbled across a breeder/trainer in WA, Kraftwerrk K9. I was really impressed by the training and quaility of german shepherds they had. Their kennels were lovely too. What I am wondering is, does anyone have any experince with them? I think all of their dogs were trained/bred for IPO and Schulzhund(I know basically nothing about those sports, but the videos looked neat. Also, spelling?) Were you impressed by the quaility of dogs and training? I don't have a working line GSD, so I can't quite judge WL dogs. Kraftwerrk K9 seems to be very successful and dedicated to the breed. At some point I would like to own a WL GSD, so I'm trying to gather as much info as possible about them and how to judge a quailty WL line breeder. 
Thanks!


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I sent you a PM


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I actually met a service dog a few weeks ago that the owner bought as a puppy from Kraftwerk. He was an excellent dog. Calm, collected, confident, and seemed pretty much bombproof. I'd never looked up the breeder before now. He was a nice dog, but with so many good breeders, I don't think I really see much that would convince me to pay 4-4.5k for a puppy. To each their own.


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## Vega-gurl (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks guys! 
I agree 4-10k for a dog seems a bit steep to me, but if the dog you get for it makes you happy, then I am all for it. Then again, I don't really know what costs are involoved for breeding/training a WL GSD. 

I'll continue to look around the interweb for breeders, but any rec's or advice would be great!


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

It just seems you could get a dog from similar, if not better, lines for half the price.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Very nice website. Very BIG COMMERCIAL operation. Dogs are bred more for family companion homes than working homes, regardless of the pedigrees. Very very few ever go to experienced GSD people who compete, because similar or better quality is available less expensively.

Do some internet searching on reviews before you make a commitment.

Lee


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Google Kraftwerk K-9 ripoff report. When there is that much drama surrounding a breeder, I look elsewhere.

They also made the paper when one of their dogs was returned to them and spent the night at the airport because they refused to coordinate with her owner on her return. 

This is publicly available info. There are many other excellent breeders out there who are smaller, less expensive, and still excellent quality.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

*Opinion of a Kraftwerk K9 GSD Owner*









We have had German Shepherds for many, many years. Our dogs have always been part of the family and go everywhere with us. Our last 3 dogs were all the same age (within months, but not related) and they got the best food and medical care. Our oldest, Casey, needed and received a new hip by age 5. Kaiser, our male, required elbow surgery and lost his spleen to bloat. So, what am I saying? Buying a GSD is a roll of the dice. Kaiser had a fantastic pedigree, acquired from a reputable breeder. All 3 dogs died within 1 year, 2 from Hemangiosarcoma and 1 from colon cancer. Even though we were devastated, the silence in our home was deafening and we knew it was just a matter of time. I tell you all this so you understand where I'm coming from.

There are a lot of places from which to buy a GSD. Where to go? Who to choose? We are lucky enough to be in a position where cost was not the first consideration. Breeding practices, breeding stock and breed knowledge were what we looked for. We bought our puppy from Kraftwerk K9. We wanted a female to go with our male. What we got was a beautiful, fearless, high drive black sable GSD. Did I say high drive? The best thing I can say is that if we had to do it all over again, we would.

I'll also tell you that posting and sharing my new family member on the forum kinda' took the wind out of my sails as many were focused on the money. Some were very supportive and that was appreciated. For what it's worth, here's my advice to you, coming from someone who actually has a Kraftwerk dog: Do your homework, make your decision and focus on the positive posts. At the end of the day, you and only you, have to live with your decision. We are very happy with ours.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

GSDLoverII said:


> We have had German Shepherds for many, many years. Our dogs have always been part of the family and go everywhere with us. Our last 3 dogs were all the same age (within months, but not related) and they got the best food and medical care. Our oldest, Casey, needed and received a new hip by age 5. Kaiser, our male, required elbow surgery and lost his spleen to bloat. So, what am I saying? Buying a GSD is a roll of the dice. Kaiser had a fantastic pedigree, acquired from a reputable breeder. All 3 dogs died within 1 year, 2 from Hemangiosarcoma and 1 from colon cancer. Even though we were devastated, the silence in our home was deafening and we knew it was just a matter of time. I tell you all this so you understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> There are a lot of places from which to buy a GSD. Where to go? Who to choose? We are lucky enough to be in a position where cost was not the first consideration. Breeding practices, breeding stock and breed knowledge were what we looked for. We bought our puppy from Kraftwerk K9. We wanted a female to go with our male. What we got was a beautiful, fearless, high drive black sable GSD. Did I say high drive? The best thing I can say is that if we had to do it all over again, we would.
> 
> I'll also tell you that posting and sharing my new family member on the forum kinda' took the wind out of my sails as many were focused on the money. Some were very supportive and that was appreciated. For what it's worth, here's my advice to you, coming from someone who actually has a Kraftwerk dog: Do your homework, make your decision and focus on the positive posts. At the end of the day, you and only you, have to live with your decision. We are very happy with ours.


Sorry you got such a lukewarm intro to the forum.  It seems silly to focus on what someone paid for their dog after they've already got it. I feel like that is the owner's business and not really anyone else's. Besides if the owner is happy with their dog, it shouldn't matter if they paid $10 or $10,000. 

Anyways, I love your dogs, they are absolutely beautiful! :wub:


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Thought of you soon as I saw this thread. Sierra is so beautiful, happy 8 months...


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

As long as someone is aware of what a breeder is charging, and what the "norm" is, then who cares if they're willing to pay it, especially if they're happy with their dog? It's one thing if someone has NO idea that 4-5k is in a different universe than what other comparable breeders are charging. But if they've done the research and decide that it's worth it to them for whatever that specific breeder is offering, it's their prerogative. I paid a little bit more than the "going rate" (still not in the 4K ballpark, but still) for my WL bitch, but it was worth it to me because of the specific dog that I wanted. 

Anywho, that's neither here nor there in terms of whether or not I would buy a dog from Kraftwerk K9, just a commentary on ribbing people over how much they paid for their dog.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Thanks guys and Happy 8 months back at ya Della! 
I think we need pictures.
Sierra and Della share birthdays.....St Patrick's Day.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

$5,500 for a Level one trained puppy https://kraftwerkk9.com/2014/11/zena-vom-kraftwerk-2-3/ who can't be more than 14-16 weeks 

title comment - there is no need to show a title in this manner BH IPO 1 IPO 2 IPO 3 AD a simple IPO 3 AD would have covered it all because you can't get to 3 without first passing BH , IPO 1 and 2 . For the newbie though it looks like the dog has more titles.
It doesn't . This is padding.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Carmen, it is called advertising and Kraftwerk is very good at it.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

lhczth said:


> Carmen, it is called advertising and Kraftwerk is very good at it.


Yes, they are, but they have exceptional dogs too.
Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it....over priced or not.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I live close to this breeder and know many trainers/helpers/handlers who knew and trained with the owner "back in the day." Lee is right on. 

This kennel has one main "sales pitch" and it isn't geared towards those out there working dogs. It's geared towards the pet owner that sees lots of marketing, titles (love Carm's point), and "impressive" things (ie..buyer doesn't know what IPO is but knows it looks cool in videos) including "well a lot of money means a great dog, right?" I'll say the reputation of this man in my area isn't very bright amongst those working/titling (handlers, helpers, trainers) and breeding dogs. Not just because of the price tag (although it is just plain silly imo), but because of business practices and breeding practices. THere are a lot of comments about this kennel on pedigree database. I suggest looking there and ripoff report. I would also suggest not "just focusing on the good experiences." I would suggest looking at ALL the reports and experiences. You can pm me for personal experiences.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I've known 5 different dogs from this kennel. 3 were pretty nice working dogs, 2 were nice active pets. Unfortunately one of the working ones was originally sold to a first time GSD owning family that was in WAY over their head and had to rehome the dog with an experienced SchH person. Another was a long coat, sold as a potential breeding prospect as a puppy (LC was a DQ at the time). Owner knew it was a coat as soon as she picked it up at the airport. She did not want a coat, or ask for a coat, or say it was ok to send a coat since she wanted to breed the dog. Everyone who saw it at club confirmed immediately that it was a coat. Breeder denied that he had sent her a long coat.......

I don't agree with the breeding practices or marketing or lack of follow through or support if owners have problems or questions, and I think the prices are laughable. But I will say that I've never seen a "bad" dog from the kennel. Granted I've only seen a few, and some weren't my personal taste, but all seemed to have good nerve and overall temperament and happy owners.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

There is nothing nefarious about having a nice website.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

You have a great breeder very close to you . I have 2 of Dari's dogs and she is one of the most knowledgeable breeders out there. She is great at picking out the perfect puppy based on your needs. Check Van Den Heuvel K9!


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## Lilo_vom_Haus_Weislogel (Oct 26, 2014)

There is no reason to pay 2000+ for a GSD. I paid around 900 bucks for mine and I can guarantee you that she is from equal or better working lines that any dog from K9. What I'm saying is that you can find a good GSD if you are involved with your local working dog club and do your research. Good luck.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Lilo_vom_Haus_Weislogel said:


> There is no reason to pay 2000+ for a GSD. I paid around 900 bucks for mine and I can guarantee you that she is from equal or better working lines that any dog from K9. What I'm saying is that you can find a good GSD if you are involved with your local working dog club and do your research. Good luck.


This thread really isn't about that ... 

That's like saying there is no reason to buy a sports car - YOU might not think there's a reason, but the OP and the person buying the sports car has their own reasons - and they ARE valid.

It's not your place to determine whether or not someone can / should spend more than you spent on your dog.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Dogs are not like sports cars so it's not the same thing.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

DobbyDad said:


> Dogs are not like sports cars so it's not the same thing.


I wasn't trying to equate the dog to a sports car ... I was trying to get across that it's no one's business how much they spend on something


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that little level one pup at $5,500 is as much or more than police departments pay for a training ready, x rayed , specially selected young dog .


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Trained Adult Versatility Protection German Shepherds For Sale with children.

Maybe the reason they are so expensive is because they come with free human pups thrown in for good measure?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Is that legal-?-lol


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Kaimeju said:


> Trained Adult Versatility Protection German Shepherds For Sale with children.
> 
> Maybe the reason they are so expensive is because they come with free human pups thrown in for good measure?


Lol sorry you would think they would give out discounts if the dogs came with kids lol

How much can we pay you to take this wonder dog...with child...?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Kyleigh said:


> I wasn't trying to equate the dog to a sports car ... I was trying to get across that it's no one's business how much they spend on something


:thumbup:...People spend what they spend for a wide variety of reasons. If buying from a certain breeder gives peace of mind to someone, then more power to them.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

ksotto333 said:


> :thumbup:...People spend what they spend for a wide variety of reasons. If buying from a certain breeder gives peace of mind to someone, then more power to them.


Peace of mind...Priceless!


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

The ethics a breeder has shown – or not shown – is something to consider when you buy a dog. It's not only about the puppy you want to have. By buying a dog, you support a breeder. Whom do you want to support? Whose practices do you want to support? 

I would think twice before supporting any kennel that sells trained dogs to anyone with a credit card and then gives only 72 hrs to return the dog if s/he i not a good fit. It shows a disregard for the dog's welfare. I don't care about the gullible humans who fall for the sales tactics, I care about the dogs. This kennel is both a commercial breeder and a vendor of import dogs whom the kennel trains for sale.. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/168867-dog-returned-sender.html

If you have training experience and you look closely at the sales videos of the returned dog (thread linked above) you can see a dog who, while she goes through the routines alright, show signs of having been hastily trained, is hectic and looks worried about making a mistake. A commercial vendor who trains dogs to sell can increase profits by taking the dogs through training as fast as possible, whatever it takes, whether that is good for the dog or not. It's about the sale.

There are many WL breeders who are ethical in their practices, select their buyers carefully, and always put their dogs first. Several of them are on this forum. And they do not charge triple the price of what others charge. They take a dog back no matter what. Their web pages are full of information, not of sales pitches meant to impress the novice GSD buyer. 

You can probably get a good puppy from a commercial kennel like the one in question. But why would you when there are so many better options? 

Anyone who has more money to spend than it takes to buy a good dog from an ethical breeder should donate the difference in sales price to their local GSD rescue organization.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

RunShepherdRun said:


> The ethics a breeder has shown – or not shown – is something to consider when you buy a dog. It's not only about the puppy you want to have. By buying a dog, you support a breeder. Whom do you want to support? Whose practices do you want to support?
> 
> I would think twice before supporting any kennel that sells trained dogs to anyone with a credit card and then gives only 72 hrs to return the dog if s/he i not a good fit. It shows a disregard for the dog's welfare. I don't care about the gullible humans who fall for the sales tactics, I care about the dogs. This kennel is both a commercial breeder and a vendor of import dogs whom the kennel trains for sale.. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/168867-dog-returned-sender.html
> 
> ...


You know what they say about opinions....


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

GSDLoverII said:


> You know what they say about opinions....


That they are different than objective truth and fact. 

There can be opinions on a matter, what is best, what to do based on feelings, what your values are. The prettiest GSDs are black. Opinion. GSDs are a breed who work in a variety of environments. Fact. 

Opinions are separate from facts and information. 

People, if they want to distinguish between the two, look at the facts and information, and then do what they want with them - based on what is important to them. But the facts remain the same. So I can get a dog that works in many environment - fact, and then based on my opinion, get a dog that is black.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Bottom line, we're happy with our Kraftwerk GSD. We've had enough GSDs to know a good one. We feel we made a good choice and we wouldn't change a thing. We know other people that are happy with their Kraftwerk dog. When asked, we'll recommend Kraftwerk. I'm sorry that seems to start such heated discussions........but, there it is.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thats a pretty good bottom line, I think. A lot of people aren't going to like the breeder, but would probably all love your dog.


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## Guy9999 (Aug 25, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> I live close to this breeder and know many trainers/helpers/handlers who knew and trained with the owner "back in the day." Lee is right on.
> 
> This kennel has one main "sales pitch" and it isn't geared towards those out there working dogs. It's geared towards the pet owner that sees lots of marketing, titles (love Carm's point), and "impressive" things (ie..buyer doesn't know what IPO is but knows it looks cool in videos) including "well a lot of money means a great dog, right?" I'll say the reputation of this man in my area isn't very bright amongst those working/titling (handlers, helpers, trainers) and breeding dogs. Not just because of the price tag (although it is just plain silly imo), but because of business practices and breeding practices. THere are a lot of comments about this kennel on pedigree database. I suggest looking there and ripoff report. I would also suggest not "just focusing on the good experiences." I would suggest looking at ALL the reports and experiences. You can pm me for personal experiences.



THere are a lot of comments about this kennel on pedigree database...Is there a link to that information?


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## Guy9999 (Aug 25, 2014)

Vega-gurl said:


> Hi Everybody-
> In surfing the interwebs last night, I stumbled across a breeder/trainer in WA, Kraftwerrk K9. I was really impressed by the training and quaility of german shepherds they had. Their kennels were lovely too. What I am wondering is, does anyone have any experince with them? I think all of their dogs were trained/bred for IPO and Schulzhund(I know basically nothing about those sports, but the videos looked neat. Also, spelling?) Were you impressed by the quaility of dogs and training? I don't have a working line GSD, so I can't quite judge WL dogs. Kraftwerrk K9 seems to be very successful and dedicated to the breed. At some point I would like to own a WL GSD, so I'm trying to gather as much info as possible about them and how to judge a quailty WL line breeder.
> Thanks!


'Kraftwerk K9 seems to be very successful and dedicated to the breed.'

SEEMS is a tricky word. Do your homework and then decide if you still think that way.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've met a couple kraftwerk dogs, they were nice enough. Would I pay that much or buy from them? Absolutely not.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

GSDLoverII said:


> Yes, they are, but they have exceptional dogs too.
> Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it....over priced or not.



Ever hear the phrases "market price" and "rip off".

Dictionary dot com defines "Exceptional" [ik-sep-shuh-nl] 



  Synonyms 
  Examples 
  Word Origin 
 
adjective 1. forming an exception or rare instance; unusual; extraordinary: The warm weather was exceptional for January.


2. unusually excellent; superior: an exceptional violinist.


3. Education. 

being intellectually gifted.
being physically or especially mentally disabled to an extent that special schooling is required. 
 




Have looked at the pedigrees at Kraftwerk many times. And the marketing blurbs on pups:

"Hard to find solid black"....ah - Solid black is nearly as easy to find as black and red. Only reason black and read is easier is because there are more showline kennels than working. I have had solid blacks in 8 of 12 litters - roughly 75% of my litters. Pretty much every other breeder of working lines here has produced solid blacks. I just had a sable female whelp and all the pups were solid black. Lisa has had them, Chris has had alot of them, Carmen has had them....

Dog descriptions can be applied to my dogs, Lisa's dogs, Carmen's etc...sure temperament, nerves etc...

Lines to all time greats - heck, probably 3/4 of the working dogs in the US go to Troll or Timmy...and most with West German blood are going to have a few BSP competitors or winners in their pedigree.

Breeding 2 Kentucky Derby winners will not guarantee you a Kentucky Derby winner. It has been done. 

Lots of comments on color - calling medium sables "rare black sables" and weakly pigmented sables "unique"....

Lots of mixing of DDR lines with West German. Also NOT RARE. One of my foundation females was predominantly DDR. I, of all people here, understand how mixing DDR into West German (Belgium/Czech) works. Most here are staying in West German working lines....which I have too....but mixing in the DDR will change the drive profile and most dogs with DDR are going to be more suitable for companion dogs that high profile straight West German competition lines. 

Not "Exceptional" - just the same or not even as "Good" as many others as the breeding and sales pitch/marketing is GEARED to the pet market. And the mentality that if you pay more, it must be better. Let's face it - lobster meat is the same taste whether you get it in Red Lobster or the high priced seafood specialty restaurant. It is the ambiance and marketing that dictates the price.


I stand by my opinion - which is based on these facts (among MANY OTHERS) that you can get just as good a dog/pup elsewhere, with better breeder support for a more realistic price. Involved, concerned breeders do not sell via their websites to any comer with a credit card. You may get a healthy puppy that you are happy with there. What really tells about a breeder's ethics is when the dog is not suitable, or the puppy is not healthy - that is when the breeder's ethics are exposed and proved. Happy people are always great references....find the ones who had an issue and see how it was resolved....whether brokered animals or bred animals.....

This morning I am meeting a guy to whom I sold another breeder's puppy - goes back to my breeding - but not my puppy. 17 months old. Buyer's life got turned upside down and I am helping in re-homing the puppy for him. Not my responsibility, not my breeding...I only put the buyer together with the breeder of the puppy. And have met with the buyer a few times. But I have a very good prospective home with people I know for which the young dog appears to be suitable. And if that falls through, I will find another good home for her. That is the difference between a commercial operation selling hundreds of dogs and pups a year and a breeder.

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Oh - that other point - almost every sable there being touted as "black sables".....if you want to see a "black sable" - look at Gordon Fuchsgraben in California....look at my Csabre....THOSE are black sables....

the photos a few pages back are a normal sable, good pigment....same as Komet, Kougar, Kira from my K litter, Basha - my female - her daughter Furious and her daughter Ava (see photos in the brag section about her being High Female at the 2014 Nationals)....Good dark pigment, but NOT a black sable. That description of color is a buzz word and sells pups - when breeders push pups on the basis of color???? People call me all the time and say they want a black sable....they know nothing about lines or training or sport - but they all want 'black sables'

Lee


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

steve strom said:


> thats a pretty good bottom line, i think. A lot of people aren't going to like the breeder, but would probably all love your dog.


amen!!


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