# Why Do Puppies Cost So Much?



## creegh

Ruffly Speaking has a new blog post up  (very happy to see her back writing!)

And it addresses costs and perceptions of costs of puppies and 'you get what you pay for?' 

Why do puppies cost so much? | Ruffly Speaking

Could we add it to the What To Look For in a Responsible Breeder sticky?


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## taytay

I enjoyed reading the comments. Kind of sounded like some of the posts on this forum get, two WAY DIFFERENT points of view...


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## Kaimeju

I love this author. The one thing that people always counter with, though, is about the unpredictability of health because we are talking about living things, not phones or cars. If you end up with a dog that costs thousands of dollars in vet bills and eventually dies, a replacement puppy or refund is pretty poor consolation. So I think people need to see some hard statistics on why the things that matter to them (good temperament and health, mainly) are actually what reputable breeders are offering above backyard breeders. A warranty is little comfort when you actually have a disaster happen- it can't make an unhealthy dog healthy. People need some good evidence that the dog they get from a responsible breeder is more likely to be healthy and even-tempered, and I don't mean just OFA testing because that does not even scratch the surface of what can go wrong with a dog. 

And then there's the circular reasoning I see so often- "Well of course if you get a dog from a responsible breeder it will be healthy and have good temperament, because that's what responsible breeders are aiming to produce." That is not very helpful to puppy buyers. 

I'm not really convinced by the cars to dogs comparison, since you can't really "manufacture" dogs to certain specs. Breeders are a lot more like artists, IMHO.


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## Maxx

I don't like the article.

'Pretend you're buying a smart phone....' - $200? First of all, it's cheap at that price and don't people 'buy their phone' based on the contract they get? Who shells out $800+ off for them? Maybe they do....

But, the e.g. of the car is simllar - $40K car... is chosen over $4500 car. Yeah, so? It's probably financed. OR did you give your bank info for the lot and say, take out $40K? 

Is there any breeders who take payments? I hear crickets...

I think it's this way - if you can afford $2000 for a dog, you can do it but lots of people cannot so they are stuck at the classifieds trying to find a purebred dog (some don't even do that) that is as healthy as possible - so they can raise it their own way. 

Am I right? :-/


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## SkoobyDoo

Makes it sound like the cost alone makes the dog guaranteed to be healthy and the breeders a good one! We all know that's not the case! !


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## wyoung2153

Liked the read.. thanks for sharing!


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## Wolfenstein

Maxx said:


> I think it's this way - if you can afford $2000 for a dog, you can do it but lots of people cannot so they are stuck at the classifieds trying to find a purebred dog (some don't even do that) that is as healthy as possible - so they can raise it their own way.


While I agree with your other criticisms, the thing that people need to see is that if they CAN'T afford $1500-$2000 for a puppy, they're better off waiting and saving up. People get this, "I decided I want something, so I want it NOW," mentality, and it's not something that should be going on with a living thing. If you don't have the time to save for the money, how are you going to handle a potential waiting list? If you don't have the time to save the money, are you doing your research on breeders and finding the ones that are actually health testing and tracking issues in their lines? If it's that you can't AFFORD to save the money, how are you going to afford the monthly cost of the dog? Training? Vet bills? SURPRISE vet bills? Just because you want a dog doesn't mean you should get one on the spot, and doesn't always mean you should even get one at all.

So, yeah, there are going to be people that don't listen to advice and want their spur of the moment dog. But some people just don't understand paying that much, and those are the people that need to know it's not just breeders trying to rip you off for an extra buck. They need to know that all that health testing, all that titling on the dogs, even just housing and vetting their dogs, it all racks up. So paying what most reputable breeders are asking for puppies helps them keep doing what they're doing so well, and it's insanely worth it for the purchaser.


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## Liesje

I think the cost of dogs is really driven by the market than anything. If everyone tallied up their costs to raise, title, health certify, and then breed/whelp a breeding quality dog, puppies would cost $7000, lol. It seems to me that it's more a matter of what a breeder can live with as a low cost vs what people in the general breed community think is too high a cost. The puppies sell and breeders are able to get them into good homes (pet homes, show homes, working homes) so the balance is met.


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## SkoobyDoo

Some of the worst bybs have dogs for sale up to and over 2k. The article implies a pricey pup is better and there is no keys to identifying a good breeder from a faux one that simply charges gobs of money for their puppies.


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## asja

Breeders in Germany charge around €800 for a puppy from titled, breed-surveyed, hip-cleared parents approved for breeding by a breed warden. A comparable puppy in the U.S. is at least twice as expensive. Not really sure why, except market forces at work.


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## Katey

SkoobyDoo said:


> Some of the worst bybs have dogs for sale up to and over 2k. The article implies a pricey pup is better and there is no keys to identifying a good breeder from a faux one that simply charges gobs of money for their puppies.


I agree with you that it's not just cost separating breeder/purchase decisions (I'm constantly surprised when I hear how much some people have spent on their "designer" dogs). However, I don't think that this article is weaker for not specifically getting into how determine whether a particular breeder is responsible and a good fit. If you look around the site, she has several posts on her site on responsible breeding, including her personal criteria for breeders, things to ask, etc. 

She has some really good content -- I'm also very happy to see she plans to go back to posting regularly!


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## nezzz

asja said:


> Breeders in Germany charge around €800 for a puppy from titled, breed-surveyed, hip-cleared parents approved for breeding by a breed warden. A comparable puppy in the U.S. is at least twice as expensive. Not really sure why, except market forces at work.


That's not really true. A good puppy from a good sire/dam pairing can cost up to 4000 euros. Don't take titles as a sure thing in Germany.

In Germany, titling is compulsory before breeding and most breeders "buy" their titles, especially show line dogs as show breeders aren't really interested in schutzhund. Only the really good kennels take the time to work or show their dogs and these are the ones that are expensive. So not all titled dogs are show or work quality.


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## creegh

Maxx said:


> I don't like the article.
> 
> 'Pretend you're buying a smart phone....' - $200? First of all, it's cheap at that price and don't people 'buy their phone' based on the contract they get? Who shells out $800+ off for them? Maybe they do....
> 
> But, the e.g. of the car is simllar - $40K car... is chosen over $4500 car. Yeah, so? It's probably financed. OR did you give your bank info for the lot and say, take out $40K?
> 
> Is there any breeders who take payments? I hear crickets...
> 
> I think it's this way - if you can afford $2000 for a dog, you can do it but lots of people cannot so they are stuck at the classifieds trying to find a purebred dog (some don't even do that) that is as healthy as possible - so they can raise it their own way.
> 
> Am I right? :-/


There are several breeders I have talked to who take payments. 

Coming from a horse breeding background I have done payments on several horses I owned or bred - if the home was a good match I was more than happy to work out payment plans so they could afford one of my horses. 

Most breeders are pretty flexible when it comes to how you pay. I know a lot of my show and performance breeding friends in various breeds will do anything from outright give a puppy to a good home to discount heavily to the right situation. 

But it also depends on how you approach them and the relationship you have with them. 

In the horse world I'm much more likely to work out a payment option, discuss pricing with someone who approaches me professionally and shows an interest in promoting my ponies (either they have good show experience, work with a good trainer etc) over someone who right off the bat with barely a hello goes HOW NEGOTIABLE IS YOUR PRICE? I WANT A DISCOUNT! I CAN PROMISE A GOOD HOME. 

Awesome. A good home is the bare minimum of my requirements thanks.


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## asja

nezzz said:


> That's not really true. A good puppy from a good sire/dam pairing can cost up to 4000 euros. Don't take titles as a sure thing in Germany.
> 
> In Germany, titling is compulsory before breeding and most breeders "buy" their titles, especially show line dogs as show breeders aren't really interested in schutzhund. Only the really good kennels take the time to work or show their dogs and these are the ones that are expensive. So not all titled dogs are show or work quality.


I never heard of anyone paying €4000 for a puppy in Germany, unless maybe the buyers were American and didn't speak German, because no German would pay that much. I know a few breeders in Germany and their prices for working line pups are around €800. Good dogs too, but small breeders, not big name breeders.


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## nezzz

asja said:


> I never heard of anyone paying €4000 for a puppy in Germany, unless maybe the buyers were American and didn't speak German, because no German would pay that much. I know a few breeders in Germany and their prices for working line pups are around €800. Good dogs too, but small breeders, not big name breeders.


800 Euros is fine but are the parents proven workers who can do top level sport or police/military/SAR work??

I know some top sport breeders who require you to board the pups with them for a period of time so that they can be trained in their foundation. No boarding no selling puppy. I got a friend in my GSD club who put down $9000 for a pup from a kennel in Holland, dog + boarding + foundation training. And this is not some quack kennel either. So yes, I've seen crazy prices.

Of course top breeders are selling a reputation but the reason why they can charge so much for a puppy is because they can consistently produce dogs of a certain quality most of the time.


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## Big Brown Eyes

SkoobyDoo said:


> Makes it sound like the cost alone makes the dog guaranteed to be healthy and the breeders a good one! We all know that's not the case! !


LOL. Reminds me of a mistake I made...

I collect watches. And I am stupid enough to think the more the expensive the watch the better it is. I have a good collection, and I made a box of wood and painted it myself to store them in.

I found "Millage" watches in a Los Angeles boutique for an incredible discounted price, like when the original is $7,500, it was for $2000 or some thing (This was in 2010).

I purchased not one, not two, but three watches. One for myself and 2 (matching set) for my parents.

5 years later, I realize it was the poorest investment I made. Millage claims it is "swiss made". But reality is they own a warehouse in down town Los Angeles, with shady middle eastern types running operations. The watches themselves are supposedly not that well made - maybe some Swiss components, but not hand crafted in Switzerland - like Patek Phillipe.

They just assembled the watches in the LA Warehouse, put them for sale at fancy stores in Beverly Hills, and put a huge price tag - which they slashed down to offer a "Too good to pass" deal. And even a rather careful buyer like me, fell for it. 

Same with the Swatch group:
Prestige and Luxury Range :
Breguet
Harry Winston
Blancpain
Glashütte Original
Jaquet Droz
Léon Hatot
Omega

High Range
Longines
Rado
Union Glashütte

Middle Range
Tissot
Balmain
Certina
Mido
Hamilton

All these watch companies were purchased by the swatch group, and now most of these watches have the same movement, made by ETA - a Swatch Subsidiary. 

So even if you are wearing a Longine or a Rado (2 watches I have several models of), the reality is : the case looks nice, but the insides are cheap Swatch movement (movement = the machinery that makes the watch run).

I am really sick of the fashion industry selling cheap garbage with labels and insane price tags. Another case and point would be a YSL purse I got my wife. Paid well over $2500 for it (this was the discounted price). Wife : a "natural materials" addict, took one look at it, and tossed it aside. Its made of polyurethane.... 

AGGGGGHHHHHH!

So yeah, just because you pay a lot for some thing doesn't mean its good.


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## martemchik

The article focuses on price with the assumption that research has been done and that the customer knows what the “cost” of the puppy should be. The idea is that if it’s cheap, it probably is too good to be true. The puppy market is fairly efficient market. Most breeders/puppies fit into a fairly consistent pricing structure, and if you find a dog either below or above that structure, you should see it as a red flag. Now, part of that is knowing what the market is. But if you call 10 or so breeders, find out their prices, you’ll figure that market out pretty quickly. Will people still buy $500 puppies? Absolutely. There are plenty of people out there that don’t believe spending an extra $500+ on a puppy gives them any kind of benefit. But they are consciously accepting the higher risk for a lower price.

You really shouldn’t compare it to the nominal value of a car. Yes, a car is more expensive, and therefore more research and information will be gathered. MOST people also understand more about car buying than they do about puppy buying. A lot more information is easily available and can be found. So of course, when you see a highly discounted vehicle, your first thought is that something is wrong with it.

The puppy thing…there are actually quite a small amount of breeders that are selling puppies for more than what they should be worth. Those that do it, tend to do it on a reputation that was formed previously, and so they can now charge a higher price even though the dogs currently being bred might not otherwise get the price that they are charging. And of course there are those breeders that game the system and are able to prey on unknowledgeable customers and get a higher price. Always remember that it takes two people to make a market, and it’s the customer that needs to have enough information to not “overpay” for a puppy.


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## 702Rommel

Would love to see some of these German breeders selling for 800 euros, as well as the top German breeders and their prices.

I understand you get what you pay for, and I would rather pay more to ensure my dog is going to live a long healthy life.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. A lot of things are getting more expensive in the U.S. Not just the purchase price but also food, vet care, participating in sports.

Lots of factors are driving this but one that pops to mind is the demand for perfection that dominates the a lot of the mentality in the U.S. In the case of puppy buyers they want a guarantee that the puppy is not going to have HD, ED amongst other genetic issues. Breeders can test and do their best but it's never going to be 100%. So if the breeder has to assume the risk of holding to a guarantee for health then they are going to pass the cost of that risk along. This is why BYBs are cheaper, they don't assume any risk, but can still make money.

I'd rather buyers do due diligence and research and then assume the risk themselves, which should translate to a lower cost across the board. Ironically this may also deincentivize some of the BYB breeders (puppy millers too) as they will not be able to make as much money off puppies by tryng to ride on the coat tails of ethical breeder prices....



asja said:


> Breeders in Germany charge around €800 for a puppy from titled, breed-surveyed, hip-cleared parents approved for breeding by a breed warden. A comparable puppy in the U.S. is at least twice as expensive. Not really sure why, except market forces at work.


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## Gwenhwyfair

On what Max notes, cars are also not appropriate comparison as they are basically stamped out of a manufacturing process with far fewer variables. Each model will be the same horsepower, gas mileage, so on, given the same options are selected.

You don't generally get that level of consistency with genetics.

It's a lot easier to compare stats on different models of cars then it is to understand the genetics behind a particular pedigree match.


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## asja

nezzz said:


> 800 Euros is fine but are the parents proven workers who can do top level sport or police/military/SAR work??
> 
> I know some top sport breeders who require you to board the pups with them for a period of time so that they can be trained in their foundation. No boarding no selling puppy. I got a friend in my GSD club who put down $9000 for a pup from a kennel in Holland, dog + boarding + foundation training. And this is not some quack kennel either. So yes, I've seen crazy prices.
> 
> Of course top breeders are selling a reputation but the reason why they can charge so much for a puppy is because they can consistently produce dogs of a certain quality most of the time.


My dog's littermate was a drug sniffer in Frankfurt Airport. Just one example.

Germany is full of small breeders, people with a few females who breed to top males, and maybe have one litter a year. These are excellent dogs, and they generally sell for 800-1000 euros. Every town in Germany has a breeder, and most don't speak English. You can also find them in the SV website (schaeferhunde.de), or ask locals. Just because you are not aware of these breeders doesn't mean they don't exist. Go to Germany and look, it's not that hard, the country is full of them. In Czech too. 

The name brand breeders are selling puppies for crazy prices because some people are willing to pay it, usually foreigners. I asked my German husband if he'd pay 4000 euros for a puppy and he laughed at me. No German would ever pay that much.


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## asja

Big Brown Eyes said:


> LOL. Reminds me of a mistake I made...
> 
> I collect watches. And I am stupid enough to think the more the expensive the watch the better it is. I have a good collection, and I made a box of wood and painted it myself to store them in.
> 
> I found "Millage" watches in a Los Angeles boutique for an incredible discounted price, like when the original is $7,500, it was for $2000 or some thing (This was in 2010).
> 
> I purchased not one, not two, but three watches. One for myself and 2 (matching set) for my parents.
> 
> 5 years later, I realize it was the poorest investment I made. Millage claims it is "swiss made". But reality is they own a warehouse in down town Los Angeles, with shady middle eastern types running operations. The watches themselves are supposedly not that well made - maybe some Swiss components, but not hand crafted in Switzerland - like Patek Phillipe.
> 
> They just assembled the watches in the LA Warehouse, put them for sale at fancy stores in Beverly Hills, and put a huge price tag - which they slashed down to offer a "Too good to pass" deal. And even a rather careful buyer like me, fell for it.
> 
> Same with the Swatch group:
> Prestige and Luxury Range :
> Breguet
> Harry Winston
> Blancpain
> Glashütte Original
> Jaquet Droz
> Léon Hatot
> Omega
> 
> High Range
> Longines
> Rado
> Union Glashütte
> 
> Middle Range
> Tissot
> Balmain
> Certina
> Mido
> Hamilton
> 
> All these watch companies were purchased by the swatch group, and now most of these watches have the same movement, made by ETA - a Swatch Subsidiary.
> 
> So even if you are wearing a Longine or a Rado (2 watches I have several models of), the reality is : the case looks nice, but the insides are cheap Swatch movement (movement = the machinery that makes the watch run).
> 
> I am really sick of the fashion industry selling cheap garbage with labels and insane price tags. Another case and point would be a YSL purse I got my wife. Paid well over $2500 for it (this was the discounted price). Wife : a "natural materials" addict, took one look at it, and tossed it aside. Its made of polyurethane....
> 
> AGGGGGHHHHHH!
> 
> So yeah, just because you pay a lot for some thing doesn't mean its good.



Sinn watches. German made, my favorite. Made in Germany. I have two diving watches. 
Sinn-Spezialuhren


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## martemchik

asja said:


> My dog's littermate was a drug sniffer in Frankfurt Airport. Just one example.
> 
> Germany is full of small breeders, people with a few females who breed to top males, and maybe have one litter a year. These are excellent dogs, and they generally sell for 800-1000 euros. Every town in Germany has a breeder, and most don't speak English. You can also find them in the SV website (schaeferhunde.de), or ask locals. Just because you are not aware of these breeders doesn't mean they don't exist. Go to Germany and look, it's not that hard, the country is full of them. In Czech too.
> 
> The name brand breeders are selling puppies for crazy prices because some people are willing to pay it, usually foreigners. I asked my German husband if he'd pay 4000 euros for a puppy and he laughed at me. No German would ever pay that much.


And why does this matter?

800-1000 euro + shipping is still $1200-$1800. And for what? The same dog, without a guarantee, and with very little support from a breeder. On top of that, IF you do go and see the parents work, you're going to spend a lot more money than if you did the same in the United States. I'd also trust a breeder in the United States to match me with a working puppy way before I trust a German one to do the same. 

The dog from that "no one knows of breeder" is probably not too different from a middle of the road working line breeder in the United States that also has the ability to breed to any of the top stud dogs in the United States.

Good breeders are also all over the United States. Just because you can't google them and find them, doesn't mean they don't exist. A bit easier to look at them then the ones in Germany IMO.

Importing if you don't have any goals for the dog is basically so that you can run around telling your friends that your dog is imported. Same idea when people purchase from "imported parents" or "champion lines." End of the day, the dog is probably going to cost you more (and you'll get less with it) than a comparable dog purchased in the United States.


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## asja

martemchik said:


> And why does this matter?
> 
> 800-1000 euro + shipping is still $1200-$1800. And for what? The same dog, without a guarantee, and with very little support from a breeder. On top of that, IF you do go and see the parents work, you're going to spend a lot more money than if you did the same in the United States. I'd also trust a breeder in the United States to match me with a working puppy way before I trust a German one to do the same.
> 
> The dog from that "no one knows of breeder" is probably not too different from a middle of the road working line breeder in the United States that also has the ability to breed to any of the top stud dogs in the United States.
> 
> Good breeders are also all over the United States. Just because you can't google them and find them, doesn't mean they don't exist. A bit easier to look at them then the ones in Germany IMO.
> 
> Importing if you don't have any goals for the dog is basically so that you can run around telling your friends that your dog is imported. Same idea when people purchase from "imported parents" or "champion lines." End of the day, the dog is probably going to cost you more (and you'll get less with it) than a comparable dog purchased in the United States.


Sure. My experiences are different since my spouse is German, I lived there for years, and we go visit every year. We're spending two months there this summer. I import my dogs because I already know the breeders, and it costs me $200 to fly them back, and my one experience in rescue was a total disaster. YMMV. I'm offering a point of view that most here don't have.


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## Gwenhwyfair

We had another member who is from Germany who used to make the same points.

I think it is a question of (or point) - why are dogs so much more expensive in the U.S. even when they are comparatively the same (titles, health tests, similar lines, decent breeder etc.)as a dog from Germany?

Not whether it is a good idea to import or not.




asja said:


> Sure. My experiences are different since my spouse is German, I lived there for years, and we go visit every year. We're spending two months there this summer. I import my dogs because I already know the breeders, and it costs me $200 to fly them back, and my one experience in rescue was a total disaster. YMMV. *I'm offering a point of view that most here don't have*.


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## Gwenhwyfair

One more note on pricing, I spoke with a breeder a few years ago about her prices.

She said that she didn't like to price too low because then puppy buyers were not going to be as 'invested' in caring for and appreciating their dog. She didn't like to price too high because those buyers tended to be looking for a 'status symbol' and likely would not be invested in the dog for the right reasons. 

Probably some truth in that.


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## wolfstraum

asja said:


> Breeders in Germany charge around €800 for a puppy from titled, breed-surveyed, hip-cleared parents approved for breeding by a breed warden. A comparable puppy in the U.S. is at least twice as expensive. Not really sure why, except market forces at work.


Dog clubs are common in Germany - many towns can have more than one club....helpers don't charge $50 a training session....Clubs are social gathering places and people do not have to travel 2 -4 hours to train a dog...they don't need a big truck to haul the dog, have to pay tolls on highways etc...all breeding dogs are titled and breed surveyed - they have to be or the pups do not get regular papers or any papers....most Germans I have met think we are nuts to drive 2+ hours to training and are amazed at the vehicles we have to have to tote around our dogs... So pups from titled parents are NOT the norm here - BYB puppies and those without credentials on the parents even if better breeding are much more common. Trust me, it costs a ton to work dogs and title dogs when you don't have a club/helper in your back yard...

Lee


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## BadStarter

There are websites of breeders who sell a good puppy for 5888 USD. Then at 6888. Plus shipping, u had hold myself back from shelling out that money because with shipping it wld have costed my around 9000 USD. I paid approx half the amount :/


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## asja

Gwenhwyfair said:


> We had another member who is from Germany who used to make the same points.
> 
> I think it is a question of (or point) - why are dogs so much more expensive in the U.S. even when they are comparatively the same (titles, health tests, similar lines, decent breeder etc.)as a dog from Germany?
> 
> Not whether it is a good idea to import or not.


I think the answer is that in Germany the dogs are very common, and breed standards are very strict, and many dogs are equally qualified. And every town has a breeder. Not so in the US. Germans just wont pay that much for a puppy. A trained dog, yes, puppy no.

Breeders I know, years ago I liked one of their females they were keeping for breeding, and I asked for one of her puppies. Six months later they contacted me and told me they decided not to breed her, only because her hip score was A2 and not A1. They said they only wanted to breed A1. I got my perfect dog for 500 euros, because they wanted her to be a house dog and they knew I would keep her in my house. I'm sure I could have bred her here with A2, but I'm not going to breed. She's 10 now, no sign of hip problems.


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## asja

wolfstraum said:


> Dog clubs are common in Germany - many towns can have more than one club....helpers don't charge $50 a training session....Clubs are social gathering places and people do not have to travel 2 -4 hours to train a dog...they don't need a big truck to haul the dog, have to pay tolls on highways etc...all breeding dogs are titled and breed surveyed - they have to be or the pups do not get regular papers or any papers....most Germans I have met think we are nuts to drive 2+ hours to training and are amazed at the vehicles we have to have to tote around our dogs... So pups from titled parents are NOT the norm here - BYB puppies and those without credentials on the parents even if better breeding are much more common. Trust me, it costs a ton to work dogs and title dogs when you don't have a club/helper in your back yard...
> 
> Lee


Yes.


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## Liesje

Does it matter why dogs cost more or less in the USA vs. Germany? Why does gas/petrol cost way more in Europe vs. the US? There are many things that cost way more in western Europe that cost least or are even cheap in the USA. It's a totally different market. I paid $2300 for one of my dogs (he was actually bred in Germany, by a stud never set food in the USA and only used 1 or 2 other times by US breeders, and was born in the US) which many people think is insane but he was worth *every* penny to me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, yeah, that's probably a big factor. 

In the U.S. we see poorly bred dogs being advertised for similar prices as dogs from breeders who adhere to standards. It's a marketing ploy where BYBs ride on the coat tails of good breeders price wise and as mentioned earlier, prey on ignorance.

Ignorance become less of a factor if the breed standards are more strict. across the board. 

That and I think what Lee mentions above as well comes into play.





asja said:


> I think the answer is that in Germany the dogs are very common, and breed standards are very strict, *and many dogs are equally qualified.* And every town has a breeder. Not so in the US. Germans just wont pay that much for a puppy. A trained dog, yes, puppy no.
> 
> Breeders I know, years ago I liked one of their females they were keeping for breeding, and I asked for one of her puppies. Six months later they contacted me and told me they decided not to breed her, only because her hip score was A2 and not A1. They said they only wanted to breed A1. I got my perfect dog for 500 euros, because they wanted her to be a house dog and they knew I would keep her in my house. I'm sure I could have bred her here with A2, but I'm not going to breed. She's 10 now, no sign of hip problems.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, it does matter, in a macro sense.

(btw gas may cost more but the availability of affordable public transport makes up for that, but that's going out far afield for this topic though....)

Fundamentally we have a far more buyer beware leveraged market at a higher price to boot.

That's worthy of consideration.



Liesje said:


> Does it matter why dogs cost more or less in the USA vs. Germany? Why does gas/petrol cost way more in Europe vs. the US? There are many things that cost way more in western Europe that cost least or are even cheap in the USA. It's a totally different market. I paid $2300 for one of my dogs (he was actually bred in Germany, by a stud never set food in the USA and only used 1 or 2 other times by US breeders, and was born in the US) which many people think is insane but he was worth *every* penny to me.


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## asja

Liesje said:


> Does it matter why dogs cost more or less in the USA vs. Germany? Why does gas/petrol cost way more in Europe vs. the US? There are many things that cost way more in western Europe that cost least or are even cheap in the USA. It's a totally different market. I paid $2300 for one of my dogs (he was actually bred in Germany, by a stud never set food in the USA and only used 1 or 2 other times by US breeders, and was born in the US) which many people think is insane but he was worth *every* penny to me.


I can answer the gas question. It's all taxes to pay for public transportation. Most cars in Europe have smaller engines, though, or are diesel, which uses even less.

I don't think it's insane to pay that much for a good dog in the US. I think it's insane to pay $800 for a backyard-bred dog, there's one here advertising locally and I was not kind to her.


----------



## Liesje

It is common here as well for people to give friends, repeat customers, or people who have a reputation for training and titling dogs to get a dog discounted or free. I've received a free working line dog that I trained and titled and also 1/2 price for Legend. A few times I've expressed interest in a puppy or litter and been told that we could "work something out" as far as the price or some things that I didn't quite like in the breeder's normal purchase contract.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Not common enough to drive down over all prices though.






Liesje said:


> It is common here as well for people to give friends, repeat customers, or people who have a reputation for training and titling dogs to get a dog discounted or free. I've received a free working line dog that I trained and titled and also 1/2 price for Legend. A few times I've expressed interest in a puppy or litter and been told that we could "work something out" as far as the price or some things that I didn't quite like in the breeder's normal purchase contract.


----------



## martemchik

At the end of the day, 800 euro is basically $1200 taking into consideration exchange rate and cost of living adjustments.

The reason a “good dog” costs as much as it does is due to the efficient market. A BYB, sells for $500, a better dog has to be quite a bit more than that when you consider how much money health testing, titling, showing, ect cost a breeder who is doing it “right.” But at the end of the day it’s still up to the customer to do their research, and decide if the price seems fair to them. Unfortunately, it is the customer that doesn’t have enough knowledge, or possibly just doesn’t care enough that will then get “taken” and over pay for the puppy. There are members of this forum that don’t care about working titles, and actually value a dog without working titles more than one with because they believe it means those dogs are better “family companions.” So they pay the same amount for a puppy out of two dogs that are basically pets that they could easily pay for a puppy out of titled parents. There are plenty of people that turn their nose to show dogs because “they’re not going to be showing anyways.” So why do they need to pay a premium for a puppy out of dogs that have proven their conformation to the breed standard?

There is a fairly recent example of a newer member who was told X,Y,Z and then X,Y,Z was proven to be a lie. The dog was definitely sold at a price that would make anyone that had any bit of knowledge about the current market know that there was no way that X,Y,Z was possible and still the breeder was charging that price. Breeders will charge what they can get from the market, it’s as simple as that. There is no reason for someone to adjust the price on their own dogs, lose revenue, just because the whole system might be inflated. If an IPO3xIPO1 breeding is going for $1200-$2000 across the United States and the breeders aren’t having any issues selling those puppies, why would a breeder deflate their own prices if they are doing the same type of breeding? So if someone is claiming to be breeding those types of dogs but only charging $600, I’d have questions about the dogs at hand. At the end of the day, most people still make their puppy decision based on what’s written on paper, and those things are easy to compare. If someone was charging $1200 for a puppy out of un-tilted parents, I’d also be questioning that. But if they’re selling those puppies…more power to them, and unfortunately the customers are being “taken” IMO.

There are breeders that are recommended on this forum, and who’s dogs are ogled over and told how great they are, which breed un-tiltled dogs and get $1200+ for them. And yes, the same people that scream, “red flag” like banshees whenever a “newbie” comes on and asks about breeding a dog, will recommend breeders that they “like” even though those breeders are doing the same thing.


----------



## Liesje

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Not common enough to drive down over all prices though.


No, I would not expect it to. I meant it in response to Asja saying they got their dream dog for $500 because the breeder wanted the dog to be well loved and a house dog and knew they could provide the right home. That happens here too, but IMO not the same as evaluating the base price a breeder would say to the public or an inquiring person for an 8 week old puppy from health tested, titled, surveyed breeding stock.


----------



## asja

martemchik said:


> At the end of the day, 800 euro is basically $1200 taking into consideration exchange rate and cost of living adjustments.
> 
> .


The Euro has fallen rather dramatically against the dollar in the past month. 800 Euros is now barely $900.


----------



## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

All joking aside, am I the only one who WOULD take the free phone and cheaper car? Seriously, if my phone breaks no big deal it was free. I get into a car accident? Oh well not as big of a loss as my new 40K car that probably deprecated the moment I drove it away... 

Sorry no opinion on the article, or at least not one I care to share


----------



## martemchik

asja said:


> The Euro has fallen rather dramatically against the dollar in the past month. 800 Euros is now barely $900.



CURRENTLY. 3 years ago when I was in Europe, it was $1.6/euro. It also doesn't matter, because as you've stated, with $200 of shipping, you're still paying $1100 for a puppy. One that is equal to in quality to one in America, and also one that comes with a ton of risk when you don't actually have any connections in Europe.

And all of that is on the low end, as you said yourself puppies can be 800-1000 euro. Which when you adjust for cost of living and also salaries/wages on the other side of the pond, is probably equal to, if not more than what the average price is in the United States.


----------



## asja

martemchik said:


> CURRENTLY. 3 years ago when I was in Europe, it was $1.6/euro. It also doesn't matter, because as you've stated, with $200 of shipping, you're still paying $1100 for a puppy. One that is equal to in quality to one in America, and also one that comes with a ton of risk when you don't actually have any connections in Europe.
> 
> And all of that is on the low end, as you said yourself puppies can be 800-1000 euro. Which when you adjust for cost of living and also salaries/wages on the other side of the pond, is probably equal to, if not more than what the average price is in the United States.


There was a short peak in 2008 where it reached $1.60, but three years ago it was in the $1.30s. 

XE.com - EUR/USD Chart

If I had no connection to Germany, no German spouse to help me, I'd probably buy a dog in the US and then I'd have no problem paying up to $2,000. My "free" rescue dog cost more than that in vet bills alone, and he died anyway. I've been thinking about getting a Czech puppy, because we've spent some time in the Czech Republic and I might look around again.


----------



## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> At the end of the day, 800 euro is basically $1200 taking into consideration exchange rate and cost of living adjustments.
> 
> The reason a “good dog” costs as much as it does is due to the efficient market. A BYB, sells for $500, a better dog has to be quite a bit more than that when you consider how much money health testing, titling, showing, ect cost a breeder who is doing it “right.” But at the end of the da*y it’s still up to the customer to do their research,* and decide if the price seems fair to them. Unfortunately, it is the customer that doesn’t have enough knowledge, or possibl*y just doesn’t care enough* that will then get “taken” and over pay for the puppy. There are members of this forum that don’t care about working titles, and actually value a dog without working titles more than one with because they believe it means those dogs are better “family companions.” So they pay the same amount for a puppy out of two dogs that are basically pets that they could easily pay for a puppy out of titled parents. There are plenty of people that turn their nose to show dogs because “they’re not going to be showing anyways.” So why do they need to pay a premium for a puppy out of dogs that have proven their conformation to the breed standard?
> 
> There is a fairly recent example of a newer member who was told X,Y,Z and then X,Y,Z was proven to be a lie. The dog was definitely sold at a price that would make anyone that had any bit of knowledge about the current market know that there was no way that X,Y,Z was possible and still the breeder was charging that price. Breeders will charge what they can get from the market, it’s as simple as that. There is no reason for someone to adjust the price on their own dogs, lose revenue, just because the whole system might be inflated. If an IPO3xIPO1 breeding is going for $1200-$2000 across the United States and the breeders aren’t having any issues selling those puppies, why would a breeder deflate their own prices if they are doing the same type of breeding? So if someone is claiming to be breeding those types of dogs but only charging $600, I’d have questions about the dogs at hand. At the end of the day, most people still make their puppy decision based on what’s written on paper, and those things are easy to compare. If someone was charging $1200 for a puppy out of un-tilted parents, I’d also be questioning that. But if they’re selling those puppies…more power to them, and* unfortunately the customers are being “taken” IMO.*
> 
> There are breeders that are recommended on this forum, and who’s dogs are ogled over and told how great they are, which breed un-tiltled dogs and get $1200+ for them. And yes, the same people that scream, “red flag” like banshees whenever a “newbie” comes on and asks about breeding a dog, will recommend breeders that they “like” even though those breeders are doing the same thing.


I'm on a local GSD fb page, and 90percent of the people who participate on that page are buying/supporting or breeding dogs without health tests, without titles and have no clue about pedigree and lineage. 
This local page has close to 500 members and if that is a small representation of the 'normal' population owning this breed, I find it frustratingly sad.

I am disliked because I (use to, no longer deal with them)try to protect the breeds integrity...and the furbaby people get emotional and take it personally when anyone suggests doing health tests and working the dogs in some venue before breeding. 
Hardly any of them do formal training, let alone title their GSDs and people are allowed to advertise the litters that aren't doing this breed any favors. 
What pisses me off most is that people will pay the same amount from said breeders when the really good breeders that seldom have a litter are investing back into their program and really not profiting like the ones breeding their AKC papered pets. 

They don't care to research, to support this breed excelling, they just want a furbaby that is pure_bread_. :help:


----------



## asja

onyx'girl said:


> I'm on a local GSD fb page, and 90percent of the people who participate on that page are buying/supporting or breeding dogs without health tests, without titles and have no clue about pedigree and lineage.
> This local page has close to 500 members and if that is a small representation of the 'normal' population owning this breed, I find it frustratingly sad.
> 
> I am disliked because I (use to, no longer deal with them)try to protect the breeds integrity...and the furbaby people get emotional and take it personally when anyone suggests doing health tests and working the dogs in some venue before breeding.
> Hardly any of them do formal training, let alone title their GSDs and people are allowed to advertise the litters that aren't doing this breed any favors.
> What pisses me off most is that people will pay the same amount from said breeders when the really good breeders that seldom have a litter are investing back into their program and really not profiting like the ones breeding their AKC papered pets.
> 
> They don't care to research, to support this breed excelling, they just want a furbaby that is pure_bread_. :help:


Yeah, people selling their "purebread sheppard" drives me nuts. One local lady was selling those for $800! She couldn't tell me even what type dog, that really threw her. Deaf ears don't listen.


----------



## Liesje

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> All joking aside, am I the only one who WOULD take the free phone and cheaper car? Seriously, if my phone breaks no big deal it was free. I get into a car accident? Oh well not as big of a loss as my new 40K car that probably deprecated the moment I drove it away...


My phone was free and our vehicles have always been old, used ones (no auto-loans). Right now we both have 2004 models which have been the "newest" vehicles we've ever owned. Four years ago we had a 1994 Blazer and 1995 Dodge Caravan, lol. We drive them until they die and then slap a FOR SALE sticker on it and let someone take it for $500.

My dogs are much more important to me than our vehicles or our phones though so I'm willing to spend what I think gets me a good quality dog and supports the type of breeding I think will carry the breed forward.

I work in IT so I get this a lot with laptops. People will make blanket statements about how awful Dell is because they bought a $300 computer and it only lasted 1.5 years. The computer I'm typing on right now is 5 years old, I bought it for $1300 (which is still not insanely pricey!) and I have zero plans to replace it anytime soon. I've spent $200 on some upgrades and it works better than ALL of my other computers including my work desktop, Surface Pro 3 ($1500 work laptop/tablet), and 2 year old iMac. When it comes to computers, you get what you pay for. I use computers 9 hours a day for my job and then for my hobies when I am at home, so I take considerably more care purchasing a quality computer with all the specs I need than I would buying an old car that I am only in about 45 minutes a day.
http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## martemchik

onyx'girl said:


> I'm on a local GSD fb page, and 90percent of the people who participate on that page are buying/supporting or breeding dogs without health tests, without titles and have no clue about pedigree and lineage.
> This local page has close to 500 members and if that is a small representation of the 'normal' population owning this breed, I find it frustratingly sad.
> 
> I am disliked because I (use to, no longer deal with them)try to protect the breeds integrity...and the furbaby people get emotional and take it personally when anyone suggests doing health tests and working the dogs in some venue before breeding.
> Hardly any of them do formal training, let alone title their GSDs and people are allowed to advertise the litters that aren't doing this breed any favors.
> What pisses me off most is that people will pay the same amount from said breeders when the really good breeders that seldom have a litter are investing back into their program and really not profiting like the ones breeding their AKC papered pets.
> 
> They don't care to research, to support this breed excelling, they just want a furbaby that is pure_bread_. :help:



90% of the people on this forum do the same thing, and all that happens is they get "how cute" and "we need more pictures" comments. The first time someone actually says something near the truth, they get destroyed by the rest of the the GSD loving group.

I'm still not sure what that has to do with people buying dogs. All you're proving is that most people aren't doing enough research and getting proper information. Whether it's because they don't care to, or just aren't able to...it's really not the fault of the market.


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## GypsyGhost

martemchik said:


> 90% of the people on this forum do the same thing, and all that happens is they get "how cute" and "we need more pictures" comments. The first time someone actually says something near the truth, they get destroyed by the rest of the the GSD loving group.
> 
> I'm still not sure what that has to do with people buying dogs. All you're proving is that most people aren't doing enough research and getting proper information. Whether it's because they don't care to, or just aren't able to...it's really not the fault of the market.


I may be in the minority, but I really appreciate when people are honest with me about my dog/his breeding. I already know so much more now than I did just six months ago. I have never taken a comment about my dog's pedigree/his breeder/etc. as a personal attack against me or my dog. I'm thankful for the education!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I'm on a local FB with over 1000 members, all breeds but basically the same thing. 

On the point about paying the same for lesser quality dogs.

I am all for due diligence, but in fairness to puppy buyers, in the U.S. because there aren't minimum standards for breeding (beyond proof of parentage) it sets up the buyers to fail and breeders who work hard to not be recognized. This allows the BYBs to ride in on their coat tails.

This is where I part ways with Max a bit. There's a difference between free market efficiency and free for all chaos.

In the U.S. the puppy market is more chaotic then efficient.

There's never going to be a 'perfect' market, anywhere, including Germany BUT there is a better way that levels the field for sellers and buyers, somewhat at least.

This problem is in part due to the 'fur baby' people as well as organizations like the AKC not doing their part to educate and set standards.







onyx'girl said:


> I'm on a local GSD fb page, and 90percent of the people who participate on that page are buying/supporting or breeding dogs without health tests, without titles and have no clue about pedigree and lineage.
> This local page has close to 500 members and if that is a small representation of the 'normal' population owning this breed, I find it frustratingly sad.
> 
> I am disliked because I (use to, no longer deal with them)try to protect the breeds integrity...and the furbaby people get emotional and take it personally when anyone suggests doing health tests and working the dogs in some venue before breeding.
> Hardly any of them do formal training, let alone title their GSDs and people are allowed to advertise the litters that aren't doing this breed any favors.
> What pisses me off most is that people will pay the same amount from said breeders when the really good breeders that seldom have a litter are investing back into their program and really not profiting like the ones breeding their AKC papered pets.
> 
> They don't care to research, to support this breed excelling, they just want a furbaby that is pure_bread_. :help:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Also, COL and CPI aren't reflective of much really (let alone reality but that's another kettle of econ fish), unless compared to some base line income indicator.

Speaking of efficient markets, one of the few left in the U.S. is the auto industry.


----------



## chimeric

asja said:


> Yeah, people selling their "purebread sheppard" drives me nuts. One local lady was selling those for $800! She couldn't tell me even what type dog, that really threw her. Deaf ears don't listen.


Same here, one old lady says she has five pure breed GSD's, 100$ each. One is white, 3 yrs old, other 3 others are not white and older, and an 8 month old, and could not tell my anything about it other than it has papers. Which papers? Purebreed papers. Which? AKC, ACA, UKC, Pink papers, what? Not sure. :headbang:


----------



## creegh

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This problem is in part due to the 'fur baby' people as well as organizations like the AKC not doing their part to educate and set standards.


I would personally give a non-essential body part to see a solid educational nationwide campaign on what makes a good/reputable breeder and what a buyer should know about health tests etc. before puchasing a dog run by the AKC (maybe during Westminister?).

I'd take that any day over the #adoptdontshop and 'you buy a dog, you kill a shelter dog' and emotionally manipulative Sarah MacLachlan ASPCA commercials with sad eyed dogs in cages.

I've also noticed some antagonism toward breeders and a reluctance to pay them 'a lot of money' so uniformed buyers go for the cheaper priced puppies as not to 'line the breeder's pockets' for making money off producing animals.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup: 

Re: buying a puppy = death of a shelter dog.

There is a form of insanity that has filtered into the public consciousness in almost all aspects of life, imputing the worst possible outcome, zero sum thinking. Doesn't square up with reality but with all this social media who wants to be boring and pragmatic when going off the deep end is much more fun? :crazy:




creegh said:


> I would personally give a non-essential body part to see a solid educational nationwide campaign on what makes a good/reputable breeder and what a buyer should know about health tests etc. before puchasing a dog run by the AKC (maybe during Westminister?).
> 
> I'd take that any day over the #adoptdontshop and 'you buy a dog, you kill a shelter dog' and emotionally manipulative Sarah MacLachlan ASPCA commercials with sad eyed dogs in cages.
> 
> I've also noticed some antagonism toward breeders and a reluctance to pay them 'a lot of money' so uniformed buyers go for the cheaper priced puppies as not to 'line the breeder's pockets' for making money off producing animals.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Re: buying a puppy = death of a shelter dog.
> 
> There is a form of insanity that has filtered into the public consciousness in almost all aspects of life, imputing the worst possible outcome, zero sum thinking. Doesn't square up with reality but with all this social media who wants to be boring and pragmatic when going off the deep end is much more fun? :crazy:


Cannot stand that.
I think it's ridiculous


----------



## chimeric

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Re: buying a puppy = death of a shelter dog.


 Blame the bad people who leave that burden on us good people to foster.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The topic of pricing is difficult.

Something was mentioned on another thread that's more specifically related to the topic of pricing as per this thread.

I think it's o.k. for a breeder to list a price range, at least, or for a puppy buyer to ask at the beginning of the process what the range of price is. Breeder could say something such as "all my puppies start at $1,000". Not necessarily start dickering prices right away, but an upfront common ground price point?

I wouldn't want to waste a breeder's time who is WAY out of range of what I could pay.

Thoughts on this?


----------



## chimeric

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The topic of pricing is difficult.
> 
> Something was mentioned on another thread that's more specifically related to the topic of pricing as per this thread.
> 
> I think it's o.k. for a breeder to list a price range, at least, or for a puppy buyer to ask at the beginning of the process what the range of price is. Breeder could say something such as "all my puppies start at $1,000". Not necessarily start dickering prices right away, but an upfront common ground price point?
> 
> I wouldn't want to waste a breeder's time who is WAY out of range of what I could pay.
> 
> Thoughts on this?


 Oooh, me! If I see a dog, esp one that I feel should be priced at $2000, but quoted to me for 2500, I will ask, is that your best price? I could tear down their pup (via parents ratings, etc) to justify my price, but I don't like to do that and will only tick them off more than a simple, "is that your best price." I have come to dislike that question, so I will have to find an alternate method to bring down the price, if I want the dog, and feel it is overpriced. Lets not get into, what is overpriced to you may not be to me. Lots of people out the with lots of money to drop on a brand name asking price. I am not that rich, quite the contrary. :/


----------



## martemchik

chimeric said:


> Oooh, me! If I see a dog, esp one that I feel should be priced at $2000, but quoted to me for 2500, I will ask, is that your best price? I could tear down their pup (via parents ratings, etc) to justify my price, but I don't like to do that and will only tick them off more than a simple, "is that your best price." I have come to dislike that question, so I will have to find an alternate method to bring down the price, if I want the dog, and feel it is overpriced. Lets not get into, what is overpriced to you may not be to me. Lots of people out the with lots of money to drop on a brand name asking price. I am not that rich, quite the contrary. :/



Lol...you've admitted to being a complete newbie to the game and yet you feel like you have a better grasp and understanding of what a puppy is worth than a breeder that has been doing it for years? That's kind of funny.

Someone with no experience titling/trialing/training/showing, is going to tell someone else that their dog is over priced? You have no idea what the costs are of producing a puppy and yet...you're the one telling a breeder it's overpriced?

Makes all the sense in the world...


----------



## SkoobyDoo

> I could tear down their pup (via parents ratings, etc) to justify my price,


How exactly would that look?? 
You'd have to know pedigrees to do that and most average folks don't know pedigrees!


----------



## martemchik

The reason I wouldn't say "my puppies start at X" is that then you'll have people expecting to pay X. When you tell them that this particular litter is X+Y, you'll have to go into an explanation of why you have justified Y. Many times, that justification will make absolutely zero sense to a new owner, and they might also think that the Y is justified. Most will also not care that the dog is VA rated, or an IPO3 dog, to those looking for pets...they don't care to pay extra because a breeder goes "above and beyond" the norm.

As a potential new owner, you can easily gain the knowledge and figure out the range you should expect to pay based on X,Y,Z. That range is pretty standardized across the country. So if you call a breeder, selling dogs that meet those criteria, knowing what they charge shouldn't be an issue. You should already expect a certain bottom of the range, and probably a top as well. This is where the "car metaphor" makes sense. If the price is outside that range, you should question why.


----------



## Jax08

chimeric said:


> Oooh, me! If I see a dog, esp one that I feel should be priced at $2000, but quoted to me for 2500, I will ask, is that your best price? I could tear down their pup (via parents ratings, etc) to justify my price,


And what specifically are you basing your pricing criteria on? Color? Health? Conformation? Titles? Level of competition? Previous offspring's ability and success? Temperament?

These aren't cars that are all the same coming off the assembly line so please be specific based on your current knowledge.


----------



## wolfstraum

As a breeder with a solid multigenerational program....I would find that attitude offensive.....and probably not want to pursue them as a home.....You don't know or understand the time, blood sweat and tears that go into producing a good line of dogs....the heartbreak when you ethically have to wash out a dog you love everything about that comes up with an issue - for example I had a lovely Pike daughter, Sch3 KKL, produce dwarf pups - around 8K down the tubes....that loss gets spread over the whole program - the litter cost does not stand alone.....

Yes - there is rip off pricing - often from those who have a revolving door and breed every female every heat without doing anything themselves with their breeding dogs IMO


Lee


----------



## chimeric

martemchik said:


> Lol...you've admitted to being a complete newbie to the game and yet you feel like you have a better grasp and understanding of what a puppy is worth than a breeder that has been doing it for years? That's kind of funny.
> 
> Someone with no experience titling/trialing/training/showing, is going to tell someone else that their dog is over priced? You have no idea what the costs are of producing a puppy and yet...you're the one telling a breeder it's overpriced?
> 
> Makes all the sense in the world...


 
Yeah, isn't that a bit odd?!


----------



## chimeric

Jax08 said:


> And what specifically are you basing your pricing criteria on? Color? Health? Conformation? Titles? Level of competition? Previous offspring's ability and success? Temperament?
> 
> These aren't cars that are all the same coming off the assembly line so please be specific based on your current knowledge.


 This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.

Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.

STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).

Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....


----------



## martemchik

chimeric said:


> This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.
> 
> Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.
> 
> STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).
> 
> Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....



Doesn't sting at all.

Just proves how little you understand and how little you're willing to learn.

Also makes absolutely zero sense to anyone that knows anything about working dogs, breeding dogs, and actually being involved with dogs beyond a "pet level."


----------



## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

Liesje said:


> My phone was free and our vehicles have always been old, used ones (no auto-loans). Right now we both have 2004 models which have been the "newest" vehicles we've ever owned. Four years ago we had a 1994 Blazer and 1995 Dodge Caravan, lol. We drive them until they die and then slap a FOR SALE sticker on it and let someone take it for $500.
> 
> My dogs are much more important to me than our vehicles or our phones though so I'm willing to spend what I think gets me a good quality dog and supports the type of breeding I think will carry the breed forward.
> 
> I work in IT so I get this a lot with laptops. People will make blanket statements about how awful Dell is because they bought a $300 computer and it only lasted 1.5 years. The computer I'm typing on right now is 5 years old, I bought it for $1300 (which is still not insanely pricey!) and I have zero plans to replace it anytime soon. I've spent $200 on some upgrades and it works better than ALL of my other computers including my work desktop, Surface Pro 3 ($1500 work laptop/tablet), and 2 year old iMac. When it comes to computers, you get what you pay for. I use computers 9 hours a day for my job and then for my hobies when I am at home, so I take considerably more care purchasing a quality computer with all the specs I need than I would buying an old car that I am only in about 45 minutes a day.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


Glad I am not the only one! This doesn't apply to dogs though, just inanimate objects lol


----------



## Jax08

chimeric said:


> This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.
> 
> Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.
> 
> STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).
> 
> Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....


Doesn't sting. I was curious to see what your answer was. Puppies are not cars. You are basing your criteria off of a single characteristic. That's not how it works. That's not how it should ever work. Good luck with your search. I can't recommend you to a single breeder. I would highly suggest you go find a club, meet the dogs and learn a bit more.


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## wolfstraum

chimeric said:


> This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.
> 
> Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.
> 
> STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).
> 
> Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....



Ahhhh - but the red EVO = the silver EVO etc etc.....but this is NOT TRUE with dogs.....!!!!!

Even credentials are not comparable across the board.....Dog A's IPO3 doe not mean he is the same caliber as Dog B's even if they score the same... I would not buy a puppy for any price if Dog A is bred to Female A - but would drool over a puppy from Dog A and Female B.....there is SOOO much more to putting two dogs together and many people just breed titles and placements....Years ago I saw a dog who failed a big trial and I would loved to have used that dog on a specific female and you could not have paid me to use the more popular dog who was on the podium on that same (or really any of mine) female....there is so so so much more than the papers/scorebooks when planning a breeding...when you say that using the credentials to justify asking for a discount is your thought process, you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of what goes into those credentials and a lack of respect for the breeder....

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hmmm...appreciate the response Max. 

My take, as a business owner:

I have to quote prices all the time for my business. If it's a complicated job I tell them I need to see the job first.

If they push wanting an answer over the phone** I give them a starting price with the emphasis that it is subject to change.

The price is not set in stone until they sign a contract. If at the time of signing a contract they argue any price that I feel is justified I don't mind explaining my reasoning. If they disagree with me after my explanation I'm o.k. with passing on their business. I recently walked away from a job because the people were being over bearing to the point I knew they weren't worth the aggravation. So it's also a good way of sorting out who you want to deal with and who you don't. 

I don't worry about avoiding disagreements as much as I used to.

Also, I don't think the pricing is standardized as well. I see prices all over the place really?


(**if they are really obnoxious about it I quote a very, very high price.  )




martemchik said:


> The reason I wouldn't say "my puppies start at X" is that then you'll have people expecting to pay X. When you tell them that this particular litter is X+Y, you'll have to go into an explanation of why you have justified Y. Many times, that justification will make absolutely zero sense to a new owner, and they might also think that the Y is justified. Most will also not care that the dog is VA rated, or an IPO3 dog, to those looking for pets...they don't care to pay extra because a breeder goes "above and beyond" the norm.
> 
> As a potential new owner, you can easily gain the knowledge and figure out the range you should expect to pay based on X,Y,Z. That range is pretty standardized across the country. So if you call a breeder, selling dogs that meet those criteria, knowing what they charge shouldn't be an issue. You should already expect a certain bottom of the range, and probably a top as well. This is where the "car metaphor" makes sense. If the price is outside that range, you should question why.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup: 

This is good advice.



Jax08 said:


> Doesn't sting. I was curious to see what your answer was. Puppies are not cars. You are basing your criteria off of a single characteristic. That's not how it works. That's not how it should ever work. Good luck with your search. I can't recommend you to a single breeder. I would highly suggest you go find a club, meet the dogs and learn a bit more.


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## creegh

chimeric said:


> *Oooh, me! If I see a dog, esp one that I feel should be priced at $2000, but quoted to me for 2500, I will ask, is that your best price? I could tear down their pup (via parents ratings, etc) to justify my price,* but I don't like to do that and will only tick them off more than a simple, "is that your best price." I have come to dislike that question, so I will have to find an alternate method to bring down the price, if I want the dog, and feel it is overpriced. Lets not get into, what is overpriced to you may not be to me. Lots of people out the with lots of money to drop on a brand name asking price. I am not that rich, quite the contrary. :/


Bravo. You've been researching the breed how long? 5 minute expert. 

That attitude is gross + you have champagne taste on an beer budget with the attitude of an entitled frat boy. 

You want everything (and you know exactly what you're looking at right? You want it all AND the kitchen sink. And you can totally evaluate conformation/bloodlines/show ratings/breed surveys/IPO levels and scores/temperament etc. etc. etc. Better than the breeder who has years of time and money and training and spent hours soaking up as much knowledge as possible in order to make informed choices and breed a better and healthier dog with each successive generation). Oh please the puppy is NOT worth that much - you have to haggle. 

You're going to have a very hard time getting a quality dog with that type of attitude. 

I know people like you having been in horses my entire life. And the exact second the horse/puppy doesn't turn out EXACTLY the way it was SUPPOSED to you will jump to blame the breeder/person you bought it from, ignoring the fact that raising and handling and getting an animal to live up to its potential fall a lot on the shoulders of you. A good breeder will give you a GREAT foundation (and will always be at hand to be a mentor to you) you have to build upon the foundation. When you burn down the house, don't go blaming the breeder.


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## rtdmmcintyre

Price is based on multiple factors. expenses, is one factor. quality, is another factor. If the person makes you feel uncomfortable it is amazing how fast the price can climb.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Speaking of horses, having been involved more in the horse world since the 1970s, people are very upfront about the price of horses. There is often, not always, some haggling over price. This is true of colts and fillies too.

I get the part about not being obnoxious with a breeder about prices, politely asking after a ascertaining the breeder has a breeding you both feel is a good match shouldn't be a huge bad mark against a puppy buyer though.

FWIW before I got Ilda I was contacting WL breeders and after some discussion about goals and type of dogs they had I asked , nicely, "what are we looking at price wise?" They nicely replied $xxxx amount and they were all at or a bit south of $1500 at the time for puppies with parents that passed health tests, titled parents and so on. So I don't think they were upset that I asked because they didn't quote an outrageous price. 

I think maybe it's a touchier subject on this public forum because then it's viewable for searches, forever more.


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## misslesleedavis1

I think my cap price would be at 1500 - 2000 not including shipping. 
I would not mind paying that price for a pup at all,


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## Gwenhwyfair

Prices have gone up on pups over the last few years. A respected breeder who is a member of this board *was* selling puppies that would pass the criteria discussed here and then some, WL, for $800. A breeder told me since 9/11 the demand has gone up. Made sense.

For grins and giggles I looked up some horses for sale ads, not much change in the prices, if anything somewhat depressed (for decent younger trail riding horses) was surprised.


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## Kaimeju

I don't like haggling over anything, though I will if I have to, and puppies are no exception. You can easily get a range that is reasonable from talking to people in the breed and looking at what litters you would be interested in have gone for. I'm not sure if it was on this forum, but someone sent a breeder an email asking for an itemized breakdown of the price because they felt it was too high. This attitude doesn't make sense to me. The fiscal costs of planning and producing a litter tell you nothing about the breeder's knowledge, their years of work, or how well the dogs they breed will fit in your home. The quality of a puppy can't really be described by items on a list.

If I'm going to a breeder I really like, I'm also not going to treat them like a car salesperson who is trying to rip me off. One of the reasons to go to a good breeder for a pet is because they care about their pups once they leave. If you trust that they are going to be there for you and your pup, why would you suspect they are trying to cheat you? Just research a price range you think is fair and look at breeders who fall into it, is my thought.


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## WesS

Let them charge what they want. But they must be able to answer why. And justify. Esp. if they have not built up a reputation. There is no justification for a new breeder to charge premium prices with no reputation that he has produces quality dogs in the past.

Selling good quality dogs is like anything. Do it consistently with happy customers and have a good reputation, and build your 'brand' and charge what you like. People will always buy from you. To the new guys on the block. If they are overbearing, and cant justify prices (and yes you should ask why certain puppies are so expensive, and weather he is putting in the work and not just charging). 

Just so you guys get an idea. Ivan Balabanov (Multiple World champion) is selling his Belgian Malinois puppies from his breeding program, generally at a standard $2000 fee. Now this is a breeding program nobody could question. Then comes the new guy. And asks for the same price on his first litter? Just saying.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Prices have gone up on pups over the last few years. A respected breeder who is a member of this board *was* selling puppies that would pass the criteria discussed here and then some, WL, for $800. A breeder told me since 9/11 the demand has gone up. Made sense.
> 
> For grins and giggles I looked up some horses for sale ads, not much change in the prices, if anything somewhat depressed (for decent younger trail riding horses) was surprised.


My mother bought me a horse when I was young. 
She paid 2500.00 for a 18 year old beat up trail horse with hoof and neck fungus just to get him out of there and well..I loved him.
Best horse ever.
Lol my friend is very into horses, Jodi , very well known in the community and in some states.


----------



## Maxx

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm on a local FB with over 1000 members, all breeds but basically the same thing.
> 
> On the point about paying the same for lesser quality dogs.
> 
> I am all for due diligence, but in fairness to puppy buyers, in the U.S. because there aren't minimum standards for breeding (beyond proof of parentage) it sets up the buyers to fail and breeders who work hard to not be recognized. This allows the BYBs to ride in on their coat tails.
> 
> This is where I part ways with Max a bit. There's a difference between free market efficiency and free for all chaos.
> 
> In the U.S. the puppy market is more chaotic then efficient.
> 
> There's never going to be a 'perfect' market, anywhere, including Germany BUT there is a better way that levels the field for sellers and buyers, somewhat at least.
> 
> This problem is in part due to the 'fur baby' people as well as organizations like the AKC not doing their part to educate and set standards.


I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I hope that someone will realize the point I try to make.

I understand breeders are trying to do their best for the breed and appreciate their dedication and devotion to the breed of dog they have. Also, I acknowledge the expenses in doing health tests, feeding and general care for the dogs/puppies. But, the fact is, not everyone can afford $1500+ dogs so it seems purebreed dogs are for the wealthy or affluent - to me, anyway. 

Is it not common sense that dogs from a dedicated and thorough purebred breeder would be the best choice for enhancing the chances of having a healthy puppy/dog with a good temperament? But, given 6 - 8 pups per litter, there are still mostly people who buy BYB animals. So, they either A) don't know where to buy these purebred dogs from good breeders or B) they cannot afford it and thus, go to shelters, rescues or BYBs.

BYBs don't have the same devotion/dedication and/or the funds to do all the tests AND there are no regulations from the government. You don't even need to have the same breed (lots of 'mixes' with BYB). But, these dogs are cheaper so you get endless numbers of BYBs and imho, this is where the problem is. Unfortunately, some people only have $500 (if that) - and maybe a bit more (sometimes) so where else do they go? Do breeders sell via finance or deposit plus payments? No. So, the BYBs benefit based on prices of the dogs. I'm sure everyone appreciates all the health tests but not everyone has extra $$ but should that stop them from having a pet if they're a good owner? 

I also notice some classifieds with ads for dogs/puppies at prices almost or exactly at those of a good breeder. Not sure how they sell their animals but it seems to suggest that the situation is out of control (imho). No government influence or regulation means that there's more shelter and rescue dogs. 

I'm not sure what else to say. That's my two cents, I guess.


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## Maxx

creegh said:


> There are several breeders I have talked to who take payments.
> 
> Coming from a horse breeding background I have done payments on several horses I owned or bred - if the home was a good match I was more than happy to work out payment plans so they could afford one of my horses.
> 
> Most breeders are pretty flexible when it comes to how you pay. I know a lot of my show and performance breeding friends in various breeds will do anything from outright give a puppy to a good home to discount heavily to the right situation.
> 
> But it also depends on how you approach them and the relationship you have with them.
> 
> In the horse world I'm much more likely to work out a payment option, discuss pricing with someone who approaches me professionally and shows an interest in promoting my ponies (either they have good show experience, work with a good trainer etc) over someone who right off the bat with barely a hello goes HOW NEGOTIABLE IS YOUR PRICE? I WANT A DISCOUNT! I CAN PROMISE A GOOD HOME.
> 
> Awesome. A good home is the bare minimum of my requirements thanks.


Of course. I would be shocked to find any breeder around here that would do that - I don't even bother to ask. You must be in the U.S? I don't think Canadian (purebred dog) breeders would to that and I've never heard of it. Why would they want to wait for their payments on one puppy? Maybe, some horse breeders do it since a horse is so expensive? 

I wouldn't want to 'negotiate price.' I understand some posters are saying to save up. It's a fair point. I suppose, I would really prefer a purebred dog that has had the health tests since at least there is some background info on the dog and less chances for health problems down the road? (that is the idea). But, I'm not sure 'saving' vs. 'outright buying' is any different. Something always comes up but payments always seem like a better situation.  

I guess I could try saving - at least, if I had a 'deposit' - it would be something.


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## creegh

Maxx said:


> Of course. I would be shocked to find any breeder around here that would do that - I don't even bother to ask. You must be in the U.S? I don't think Canadian (purebred dog) breeders would to that and I've never heard of it. Why would they want to wait for their payments on one puppy? Maybe, some horse breeders do it since a horse is so expensive?
> 
> I wouldn't want to 'negotiate price.' I understand some posters are saying to save up. It's a fair point. I suppose, I would really prefer a purebred dog that has had the health tests since at least there is some background info on the dog and less chances for health problems down the road? (that is the idea). But, I'm not sure 'saving' vs. 'outright buying' is any different. Something always comes up but payments always seem like a better situation.
> 
> I guess I could try saving - at least, if I had a 'deposit' - it would be something.


Yes. I am in the US. 

But the matter still stands. You might be surprised at how flexible breeders are willing to be for the right situation. 

Most breeders are not 'wealthy' and are not breeding for the 'wealthy' many got their starts because someone trusted in them and saw the devotion they had toward the dogs and breeds and took a chance on them. If you approach it the right way and are willing to build a relationship with the breeder, you might find yourself in a very workable situation. 

(I've seen various people I know who have dogs of various breeds do things like this. It's not as rare as you might think actually). 

And I have done payment plans and options on horses of various budgets - some that cost less than a well-bred puppy from health tested and titled parents all the way up to a pony costing 10K++. 

Currently I'm working out one such deal with a person who doesn't have that much to spend but I couldn't have dreamed of a better home and situation for the horse I have - I want her to have this horse. I fully believe she is *meant* to have this horse. Together they will be a force to be reckoned with. We will make it work so that she will end up with that horse.


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## Kaimeju

> But, the fact is, not everyone can afford $1500+ dogs so it seems purebreed dogs are for the wealthy or affluent - to me, anyway.


I have never understood this reasoning. I am neither wealthy nor affluent. My salary is below the median for my state. It can take 6-12 months or longer to get a puppy from a breeder if you plan it right and don't just go out and buy one on a whim. It also costs (me, anyway) over $100 per month per dog, when you factor in surprise veterinary costs over time and quality food, and I don't even get pet insurance. If people were saving the money they would be spending on the puppy, they could easily have enough for the initial purchase price within a year. So, why is this not within reach? If you would be spending that money on the dog_ after_ you get it, why can't you save that money to purchase the dog _before _you get it? 

I don't believe the people that go to BYBs and so forth do so because they can't afford better. I think they do it because they don't value dogs very much. They don't think a good dog _should_ cost that much, but by golly every American family deserves a good dog, so they just go out and buy one that looks good to them. When my family first got our first purebred dog years ago, when I was still living with my parents, "affording it" was definitely not the reason we shrank back from breeder prices. My mother shrank back from it exactly for the reasons the article states: she remembered buying dogs out of the newspaper or word of mouth in her childhood and assumed that BYB dogs were the same thing. She didn't realize that the parents of the puppy we bought were likely mill dogs (one I know came from a pet store) and probably inbred, definitely not health tested. She was under the illusion that there were "average purebred dogs" that just happened to be owned by families and existed in some kind of ideal world where people just breed healthy family dog to healthy family dog and that's all there is to it.


----------



## Mesonoxian

Maxx said:


> I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I hope that someone will realize the point I try to make.
> 
> I understand breeders are trying to do their best for the breed and appreciate their dedication and devotion to the breed of dog they have. Also, I acknowledge the expenses in doing health tests, feeding and general care for the dogs/puppies. But, the fact is, not everyone can afford $1500+ dogs so it seems purebreed dogs are for the wealthy or affluent - to me, anyway.


Keep in mind I'm not a current GSD owner, but am a hopeful "someday" owner. I've researched more than I might care to admit, but have realized just how little I know, and appreciate what knowledge I've been able to glean in the past few years.

I feel as though the whole "too-expensive puppy" prices are what you make of them. If you really want the better quality dog, who happens to be at a higher price, you could make it happen. Let's say I could get a puppy now, from Breeder A for $500; BUT, I would really like to have a puppy from Breeder B who sells puppies at $1500. If I can get past the "I want it now" feeling, and simply put away all the money I would spend on food & toys for a couple of years(or less), I can have that $1500 puppy from Breeder B - just a little later than _now_. 

I'm also in the camp of people who feel they are not only spending that money on a puppy (of whatever quality it may be), but am very aware that the money I'm giving to that breeder is supporting that breeder's philosophy, and breeding practices. Any investment should be considered carefully, but the larger the investment, the more I am interested in learning more about and from the breeder.

YMMV!


----------



## creegh

Kaimeju said:


> I don't believe the people that go to BYBs and so forth do so because they can't afford better. I think they do it because they don't value dogs very much. They don't think a good dog _should_ cost that much, but by golly every American family deserves a good dog,


You know it's funny. So many people talk about 'pet' puppies or 'pet quality' puppies from good reputable breeders (breeders who either breed for IPO or the Show Ring or *insert reason*) as being 'lesser' because they didn't quite make the show/sport/work cut. 

I honestly think that's false. 

I think being just 'a pet' is one of the highest callings a dog can have. One of the hardest 'jobs' a dog can have. Often the toughest thing they can do. We expect so much out of 'just pets' - they are family companions, play with the kids, interact with strangers and family members who come into the home, play with us, put up with our crazy antics and excursions around town and the park. 

And so for many 'pet people' a dog must stable and good natured and social a best friend to the kids, patient, and willing. Do it all with a happy grin and a wagging tail. 

It's a lot to ask of a dog. It really is when you think about it.

And then they hope that the dog is healthy. That they can live a long life with them and their family. Save them and their children from the heartbreak of having to put a dog down due to a horrible (usually) preventable disease. 

A breeder I talked to a while back said that when she first got her dog - she didn't know any better. Heck she said she wasn't going to do much with the dog, it was just going to be a pet (or so were her expectations at the time). She said to her breeder: oh I'll just take whatever puppy you have. Do you have a runt? I could take a runt. 

The breeder responded: Every dog I produce no matter how good or bad they are, benefits from the time and energy and work I have put into the litter. 

And that really resonated with me. 

You get a good dog from a good breeder be it a top sport prospect or destined to be an active family pet going for walks and sleeping on the couch, a well-bred dog from a good breeder comes with the benefits the breeder put into the dog.

I wish more people realized this, because they then would get the dog they and their family deserves and (yes we know there are never any guarantees this is a live animal) but some of the heartbreak factors would be mitigated entirely.


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## vom Eisenherz

Uh, I inquire fairly regularly about European litters and prices are between 600-1000 euros. 1000 is the highest I have ever been quoted, and that has only happened once. I got a super nice female from a woman I keep in contact with for 600euros. (Sorry, I can't make a euro symbol on this laptop.) Shipping a puppy from Germany to the US is approx. the same price. I just paid 600eu. So, I got a puppy I could not get here for 1200 eu...less than I'd have paid for similar quality in the US, not that I could even get a dog bred like her in the US... 

4000 euros in Germany is laughable for a puppy price.Sure sign someone saw a novice American coming a mile away


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## CaliGSD3

Mesonoxian said:


> Keep in mind I'm not a current GSD owner, but am a hopeful "someday" owner. I've researched more than I might care to admit, but have realized just how little I know, and appreciate what knowledge I've been able to glean in the past few years.
> 
> I feel as though the whole "too-expensive puppy" prices are what you make of them. If you really want the better quality dog, who happens to be at a higher price, you could make it happen. Let's say I could get a puppy now, from Breeder A for $500; BUT, I would really like to have a puppy from Breeder B who sells puppies at $1500. If I can get past the "I want it now" feeling, and simply put away all the money I would spend on food & toys for a couple of years(or less), I can have that $1500 puppy from Breeder B - just a little later than _now_.
> 
> I'm also in the camp of people who feel they are not only spending that money on a puppy (of whatever quality it may be), but am very aware that the money I'm giving to that breeder is supporting that breeder's philosophy, and breeding practices. Any investment should be considered carefully, but the larger the investment, the more I am interested in learning more about and from the breeder.
> 
> YMMV!


Totally agree with this! If anyone would fit into the category of "can't afford a $1500 dog" it would be me. My current GSD is a rescue but my next dog will be from a reputable breeder. And I will probably plan and save a couple years beforehand. Think about how much a well cared for dog costs per year or per 6 months.... If you waited and saved that money you, you could have your $1500 dog! 
Not only that but by selecting a carefully bred dog, you can really minimize the chance of spending big $$$ on genetic health problems and maximize your chance of a happy healthy dog with a great temperament. 
My rescue dog (who I wouldn't trade for anything in the world) was, I'm sure, from a byb and I don't dwell on it or anything... But I have no idea if he will develop severe joint problems or other genetic things... Dealing with treatment for a joint issue popping up unexpectedly is something that would be difficult for me, and would most likely exceed the purchase price of a well bred dog. So to me, knowing I don't have a ton of money laying around, I feel better able to afford the more expensive puppy that I can take time and save up for, and do my best to have the least likelihood of health problems. 

I really do have just as much of a heart for rescuing and supporting good breeders and I will be happy to have done both when I get my second GSD  Both are great options... But imo there is never a good reason to go to a BYB.


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## asja

vom Eisenherz said:


> Uh, I inquire fairly regularly about European litters and prices are between 600-1000 euros. 1000 is the highest I have ever been quoted, and that has only happened once. I got a super nice female from a woman I keep in contact with for 600euros. (Sorry, I can't make a euro symbol on this laptop.) Shipping a puppy from Germany to the US is approx. the same price. I just paid 600eu. So, I got a puppy I could not get here for 1200 eu...less than I'd have paid for similar quality in the US, not that I could even get a dog bred like her in the US...
> 
> 4000 euros in Germany is laughable for a puppy price.Sure sign someone saw a novice American coming a mile away


Yes. 
A few here apparently feel the need to tell me how wrong they think I am for doing exactly this.


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## WesS

American bully prices blow out most dog prices out the water.
What do you get? An overpriced, oversised, designer, Dog.

End of the day price is fluctuated. Knowledgeable people find better breeders to be overcharged. And uneducated buyers often fall into the cracks and get overcharged for badly bred dogs.

An established breeder can make a killing on several litters. Let's not act like there is not some significant cash to be made.

The hobbyist breeder or first timer was never supposed to make big bucks. But they are increasingly going with the mentality that they spent x on dog training over the years and x on that and now I am owed something to recoup those costs. Fact is they do that because they enjoy it. They would have done it irrelevant if they bred or not. 

Without an established breeding program for those guys to sell high quality high priced pups, the dogs bred really have to stand out. An established breeder can get away with not titling all dogs etc. first time or hobbyists simply can't. (Although they do.. I mean backyard breeders can to make a quick buck, why not them)


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## GatorDog

vom Eisenherz said:


> Uh, I inquire fairly regularly about European litters and prices are between 600-1000 euros. 1000 is the highest I have ever been quoted, and that has only happened once. I got a super nice female from a woman I keep in contact with for 600euros. (Sorry, I can't make a euro symbol on this laptop.) Shipping a puppy from Germany to the US is approx. the same price. I just paid 600eu. So, I got a puppy I could not get here for 1200 eu...less than I'd have paid for similar quality in the US, not that I could even get a dog bred like her in the US...
> 
> 4000 euros in Germany is laughable for a puppy price.Sure sign someone saw a novice American coming a mile away


Why is it a puppy that you could not get here? Based on just the import pedigree alone? Are they capable of doing things that the dogs here cannot? 

And if you paid such a reasonable price for a dog of such quality, why as a breeder do you charge the price that you do for puppies of your breedings?


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## MadLab

I do also wonder why dogs are so dear.

I feel the price and profit incentive encourages problems in pure breeds. People who have paid a lot for a dog want to cash in when he or she gets older and breed off it. They don't consider whether or not it is breed worthy. Then there is also puppy farming and people banging out litter after litter of sub par pups to make big profits. 

The whole system seems to be off kilter starting with the kennel clubs and the whole theory of pure breed dogs. Once the pedigrees are closed the chances of unwanted in breeding increase. Then if you are breeding for looks only, the unwanted genetic problems arise.

At least if people bred for function and overall health. Which is why i can see why a dog bred for function should cost more than a dog bred for looks. 

Regarding price I think good working line dogs in the uk can be got for 400-600 sterling(Mals, gsd, knpv) In the Czech republic it is much cheaper. Will probably get a good gsd for 300 euro. That is a lot of money in czech by the way.

I always wondered if there was some limitation on price would you eliminate all the breeders breeding english bulldogs for example or people developing any pure breed with obvious physical problems. Like a dog costing more than a cheap car is ridiculous. 

Me being a dog lover and a bargain hunter got my cross bred mutts for less than 100 euro each. In future i want a knpv hybrid shepherd or if i move to cz l'll be looking to get some good gs there. My girlfriend wants pitty am bulldog though. She grew up with shepherds there and prefers bullies. I'm also kinda partial to block headed dogs with good bone and muscle.

I know i'll have to fork out more money for specialized dog but it will still not be near 1500. Or a fraction of it lol

I'd prefer to deal with hobbyist breeders rather than someone looking to make a buck of a dog. There are different perspectives on this subject in different parts of the world for sure. Some think if they pay big money it is better and some want to go for the cheap option. I hope there is some middle ground.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

A fair two cents I'd say.

On the pricing in general, my observations have been the prices are going up faster then people's ability to afford. 

I think one of the macro forces on the pricing of GSDs is average puppy buyers are competing against government agencies. As per the breeder who told me 9/11 created demand for increased security. There are kennels that make a very fine living providing dogs for Military, Police and other LE agencies federal and local. One of which was advertising it was increasing capacity of up to 400 dogs a couple of years ago. It's BIG business.

I'm kind of glad they are turning to Malis in a way. Will take some of the pressure off GSD prices because yeah, it gets to a point where the market is geared to the highest bidder, a bidder that someone who wants a nice dog for club level IPO cannot possibly compete with. 

IMO It's not the prices, it's how fast they are going UP that concerns me. People's incomes aren't keeping up......




Maxx said:


> I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I hope that someone will realize the point I try to make.
> 
> I understand breeders are trying to do their best for the breed and appreciate their dedication and devotion to the breed of dog they have. Also, I acknowledge the expenses in doing health tests, feeding and general care for the dogs/puppies. *But, the fact is, not everyone can afford $1500+ dogs so it seems purebreed dogs are for the wealthy or affluent - to me, anyway.
> *
> Is it not common sense that dogs from a dedicated and thorough purebred breeder would be the best choice for enhancing the chances of having a healthy puppy/dog with a good temperament? But, given 6 - 8 pups per litter, there are still mostly people who buy BYB animals. So, they either A) don't know where to buy these purebred dogs from good breeders or *B) they cannot afford it and thus, go to shelters, rescues or BYBs.
> *
> BYBs don't have the same devotion/dedication and/or the funds to do all the tests AND there are no regulations from the government. You don't even need to have the same breed (lots of 'mixes' with BYB). But, these dogs are cheaper so you get endless numbers of BYBs and imho, this is where the problem is. Unfortunately, some people only have $500 (if that) - and maybe a bit more (sometimes) so where else do they go? Do breeders sell via finance or deposit plus payments? No. So, the BYBs benefit based on prices of the dogs. I'm sure everyone appreciates all the health tests but not everyone has extra $$ but should that stop them from having a pet if they're a good owner?
> 
> *I also notice some classifieds with ads for dogs/puppies at prices almost or exactly at those of a good breeder. Not sure how they sell their animals but it seems to suggest that the situation is out of control (imho*). No government influence or regulation means that there's more shelter and rescue dogs.
> 
> I'm not sure what else to say. That's my two cents, I guess.


----------



## martemchik

What you guys are failing to take into account is that the market is working. Set the price too high? Won't sell all your puppies or sell them by 8 weeks. You'll end up dropping the price. The market tells you what the dogs are worth. If you can find 10 people to buy your puppies, why lower the price? It doesn't matter if lowering the price increases the demand for the dogs if your supply is limited anyways.

The BYB argument has nothing to do with prices of good dogs. The idea behind them, and what the original article is saying, is that they've popped up to fill a hole in the market. That hole will be there no matter what. There will always be a disparity between a reputable breeder's prices and BYB prices.

There will always be people out there only willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for a dog. They aren't going to buy a better dog just because the better dog is now only $400 more than the BYB rather than $1000 more. They are also not the people that are going to take the time and try to import a dog from a different market just to save money.


----------



## mycobraracr

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think one of the macro forces on the pricing of GSDs is average puppy buyers are competing against government agencies. As per the breeder who told me 9/11 created demand for increased security. There are kennels that make a very fine living providing dogs for Military, Police and other LE agencies federal and local. One of which was advertising it was increasing capacity of up to 400 dogs a couple of years ago. It's BIG business.


I don't think this has as much or anything to do with it as you might think. Gov. agencies are not buying 8 week old puppies. They are buying 12-24 month old green dogs. Those dogs cost more but not as much as you might think.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In spotty way.

Small local breeder that does one litter every other year, yeah....

What you are not taking into account is that it's not really a level playing field for buyers OR breeders. Think about it, you are competing with breeders who don't do the work and they still command the prices (because due diligence isn't the complete answer). Buyers are competing with gov't agencies and breeders are competing with 'fakers' who ride on the coat tails of the what the dogs two generations back in the pedigree did.

In 2010 you could get a dog from a breeder most here would consider ethical and reputable (health tested, works dogs, titles dogs BHOT and so on) for around $800. Today the prices are pushing into the $2K territory.

Yet inflation rates aren't supporting that kind of increase. 

It's a whacky market, driven by lack of standards, pressure from gov't agencies, lack of knowledge, status symbol of our breed too.




martemchik said:


> What you guys are failing to take into account is that the market is working. Set the price too high? Won't sell all your puppies or sell them by 8 weeks. You'll end up dropping the price. The market tells you what the dogs are worth. If you can find 10 people to buy your puppies, why lower the price? It doesn't matter if lowering the price increases the demand for the dogs if your supply is limited anyways.
> 
> The BYB argument has nothing to do with prices of good dogs. The idea behind them, and what the original article is saying, is that they've popped up to fill a hole in the market. That hole will be there no matter what. There will always be a disparity between a reputable breeder's prices and BYB prices.
> 
> There will always be people out there only willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for a dog. They aren't going to buy a better dog just because the better dog is now only $400 more than the BYB rather than $1000 more. They are also not the people that are going to take the time and try to import a dog from a different market just to save money.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. but a kennel I'm thinking of buys those puppies and starts them for their gov't contracts.

It's still increasing demand which puts pressure on prices.

To be clear, as I've noted, it's not the only thing affecting prices. I do think my statement that it is one of the macro drivers to be fair. Combine that with other factors and the prices I've noticed are going up, probably more then they should.



mycobraracr said:


> I don't think this has as much or anything to do with it as you might think. Gov. agencies are not buying 8 week old puppies. They are buying 12-24 month old green dogs. Those dogs cost more but not as much as you might think.


----------



## MadLab

> What you guys are failing to take into account is that the market is working.


So puppy mills and buying pup from net/supermarket is good to you.

I think the market of dogs is part of the problem.

It's how bubbles are created. Inexperienced people getting involved in a business they know nothing about. They all want to make money from little investment.

People get duped and dogs get abused.



> The market tells you what the dogs are worth.


Yea an English Bulldog, is worth 3000 and more...really?

I can see the worth in well bred well looked after working dogs but not for majority of AKC trendy expensive breeds.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

At the end of the day, what I've learned is, with GSDs at least it's getting to know people. Making connections, finding smaller local breeders through people active in sports/show and you'll find a nice puppy that's fairly priced. It takes time and patience and is not the easiest market I've ever been around. As I like to say GSDs, the most complicated breed in the world. LOL! But a good dog is worth it.


----------



## WesS

martemchik said:


> What you guys are failing to take into account is that the market is working. Set the price too high? Won't sell all your puppies or sell them by 8 weeks. You'll end up dropping the price. The market tells you what the dogs are worth. If you can find 10 people to buy your puppies, why lower the price? It doesn't matter if lowering the price increases the demand for the dogs if your supply is limited anyways.
> 
> The BYB argument has nothing to do with prices of good dogs. The idea behind them, and what the original article is saying, is that they've popped up to fill a hole in the market. That hole will be there no matter what. There will always be a disparity between a reputable breeder's prices and BYB prices.
> 
> There will always be people out there only willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for a dog. They aren't going to buy a better dog just because the better dog is now only $400 more than the BYB rather than $1000 more. They are also not the people that are going to take the time and try to import a dog from a different market just to save money.


Economics 101. You are oversimplifying it.


----------



## martemchik

MadLab said:


> So puppy mills and buying pup from net/supermarket is good to you.
> 
> I think the market of dogs is part of the problem.
> 
> It's how bubbles are created. Inexperienced people getting involved in a business they know nothing about. They all want to make money from little investment.
> 
> People get duped and dogs get abused.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea an English Bulldog, is worth 3000 and more...really?
> 
> I can see the worth in well bred well looked after working dogs but not for majority of AKC trendy expensive breeds.



Just because it's not worth that to you, doesn't mean it's not worth that to other people. Don't want a $3000 bulldog? Don't buy it. There are hundreds of people out there that will though. It has nothing to do with what YOU think the value of the dog is. It's what other people value, and guess what? There's no changing that with any amount of regulation or education. People will value what they value.

Reputable breeders aren't dumping their puppies in shelters to get rid of them or have them euthanized. Most BYB these days aren't doing that either. Dogs are being sold and put into homes.

Stop blaming good breeding practices for BYB and puppy mills. They survive because of uneducated buyers and people that want a dog but aren't willing to pay a fair price for a good one. I never have, or ever will, support a puppy mill. I have nothing to do with the fact that puppy mills are still in business. They exist because people support them, not because breeders charge 4 figure prices. You want to stop puppy mills and online sales? Call your congressman, start educating people, not just calling out people that have never supported anything near that as if they're part of the problem.

The market is created by the customer and the producer. It is not up to producers to make customers happy in this world. The lack of good breeding occurs because breeders decide to breed to the demand of the customers rather than what the breed standard calls for.

Dog abuse? Really? How does that have anything to do with puppy prices? Truthfully...the cheaper the dog, the more likely it is to get abused. Why? The initial investment doesn't matter to the person that made it. Buy a dog for $400? When there is a temperament issue, you dump it and get another one for $400. Why would you spend $300 on an obedience class when you can just get a new dog for $400? But if you spent $1500 on a dog, you're probably a little more likely to try to "fix" that one...the cost of the obedience class is way less than the cost of a new dog...


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## MadLab

Just to remind you you said



> the market is working


Who is it working for exactly?



> The market tells you what the dogs are worth.


In an inflated market, worthiness gets sidelined for profit.


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## Gwenhwyfair

WesS you are an econ nerd?  

Fair market = *relatively* level playing field. A lot of people don't know that. (*relatively* as there is no such a thing as a perfect market). 

Dogs are tricky because on top of the variables inherent in genetics (which even the best breeder cannot control) there's a ton of misinformation. lack of information and lack of even basic health standards within the major U.S. registry, AKC.


----------



## martemchik

MadLab said:


> Just to remind you you said
> 
> 
> 
> Who is it working for exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> In an inflated market, worthiness gets sidelined for profit.



Proof please. You're making far reaching statements with absolutely no actual back up.

Inflated...in your opinion. Yet people are still buying all the dogs. Guess not everyone feels the way you do. Change those people's minds, maybe you'll have a point. Until then, there is no amount of saying the market is inflated that will help the situation.

And it's working for everyone that is perfectly happy with their dogs. I've yet to meet a single dog owner on the street and hear them complain about the cost of their dog. Breeders aren't dumping litters of puppies in shelters and pounds...it's almost impossible to get a puppy from a local shelter or pound. Means dogs are being sold, finding homes, no matter what price is charged.


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## MadLab

Maybe you think cost is relative to worth within an inflated market and equates to value for money for however wishes to purchase. I don't.

As has been mentioned the price of dogs is increasing while wages are not keeping up.

Maybe that is a good thing to would be breeders but i really wonder is it a good thing generally, for dogs and the general public.

We live in different worlds anyways and don't have to agree, but I always side with the underdog not the marketeers or people who profit. I think people should be able to get a good dog for a reasonable amount, certainly cheaper than a cheap car that is road worthy. I want dogs to be healthy and road worthy, have longevity and be reasonable prized. I think people deserve that. Breeders should start providing that. Not a genetic mess and a vets dream come true.


----------



## martemchik

MadLab said:


> Maybe you think cost is relative to worth within an inflated market and equates to value for money for however wishes to purchase. I don't.
> 
> As has been mentioned the price of dogs is increasing while wages are not keeping up.
> 
> Maybe that is a good thing to would be breeders but i really wonder is it a good thing generally, for dogs and the general public.
> 
> We live in different worlds anyways and don't have to agree, but I always side with the underdog not the marketeers or people who profit. I think people should be able to get a good dog for a reasonable amount, certainly cheaper than a cheap car that is road worthy. I want dogs to be healthy and road worthy, have longevity and be reasonable prized. I think people deserve that. Breeders should start providing that. Not a genetic mess and a vets dream come true.



So still no actual proof or real world experience?

There isn't a single person out there that will agree on marginal cost/benefit. So your argument that you believe a dog isn't worth X can be had with every single other person in the world, and more than likely, you'll never agree.

Tell me how many dogs you see that are that bad? What is your experience that tells you that overall dogs are losing quality? How many dogs are really "a vet's dream come true?"

How often do you come across a dog that is so bad genetically that it is a burden on the owner or a danger to society?

People blow Internet stories out of proportion. "Oh I knew this one dog one time...blah blah blah" Due to the world being more connected, we see more news stories and fake news stories than ever before. If you really think that dogs are biting more now than ever before, or have certain diseases more than ever before, you're just being tricked by the fact that now days, people can get that information out there and it can be seen by more people. 20 years ago, those types of things weren't possible, so no one heard about the random dog attack half way across the country in some small town because that wasn't news the local news paper or news station would cover. Today...you see it on Facebook or some other public forum.

Look at this forum, I'd say more than 90% of people, don't have any genetic issues with their dogs. We'll get a few once in a while that ask about certain diseases, but all in all, the dogs are living perfectly healthy, happy lives.


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## MadLab

What do you want proof for?

Inflation in the market is pretty obvious.

To quote Gwenhwyfair....



> In 2010 you could get a dog from a breeder most here would consider ethical and reputable (health tested, works dogs, titles dogs BHOT and so on) for around $800. Today the prices are pushing into the $2K territory.


Now, does an increase in price of 300% suggest inflation to you or not?

Has the cost of living or wage gone up 300% ?

Has the cost of breeding dogs gone up 300%?

I would not think so


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## holland

GatorDog said:


> Why is it a puppy that you could not get here? Based on just the import pedigree alone? Are they capable of doing things that the dogs here cannot?
> 
> And if you paid such a reasonable price for a dog of such quality, why as a breeder do you charge the price that you do for puppies of your breedings?


Maybe it's not just the Germans who see a novice American coming along :laugh:


----------



## martemchik

MadLab said:


> What do you want proof for?
> 
> Inflation in the market is pretty obvious.
> 
> To quote Gwenhwyfair....
> 
> 
> 
> Now, does an increase in price of 300% suggest inflation to you or not?
> 
> Has the cost of living or wage gone up 300% ?
> 
> Has the cost of breeding dogs gone up 300%?
> 
> I would not think so


In 2010, there were plenty of breeders selling dogs for $1500+

Thank you for quoting one person, that did not provide any kind of actual data as well, or provide the references where she got those figures. I know for a fact that in my area, in 2010, an ASL out of a champion dog was $1200. I also know that many working lines were around the same amount. Depending on lines, the sire/dam used, those prices went up. I also know that the prominent WGSL breeders in my area were charging basically what they are charging today. Those prices have stayed about the same in the last 5 years. I know this...because I purchased a dog in 2010 and did a lot of research on price.

BTW...plenty of other things in the United States have clearly outpaced wage inflation. Cars, houses, are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head.


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## holland

Honestly I am not going to haggle over the price of a dog-its tacky. A dog is not a car. The breeder decided how much the puppy is worth -if I can afford it and I like the breeding I would buy it. Look at Ivan's website if you live in Florida -you could co-own a mal with him...if you like mals....


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## MadLab

> I know *for a fact* that in my area, in 2010, an ASL out of a champion dog was $1200.


Know how much is a AKC champion pup today?

Would you get one for less than 5000 ???

You aint gonna get it for the 1200$, 2010 price. 

The price has probably quadrupled since then. Why is anyone guess?

Has the market inflated. I would say yes. Martinchik says no.

He offers no proof and me neither. lol


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## martemchik

I can get one for $1200...not sure where you pulled $5000 out of.

I can name a bunch of breeders that sell their dogs for $1200 out of AKC champions. Maybe you should do some research before posting ridiculous numbers like that.


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## MadLab

do share.


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## asja

martemchik said:


> There will always be people out there only willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for a dog. They aren't going to buy a better dog just because the better dog is now only $400 more than the BYB rather than $1000 more. They are also not the people that are going to take the time and try to import a dog from a different market just to save money.


Buying a dog in Germany is not totally about saving money. Maybe partly, but not the only reason. The breeders here in the US charging $2000 for a puppy are using imported dogs, or dogs bred from imports. Why should I pay them more when I can do the same? Sure I would pay that much if I had no alternative, but I know I can buy a good puppy in Germany for 800 euros. 

I'll use another example, and again it's not totally about the money, but the disparity in prices. I like Finn Comfort shoes, German made. In the US they retail for $330,and I have no idea why. In Germany they are right around 150 euros, which is the high end of normal there, and that includes 19% sales tax. The US prices of $330 do not include sales tax, I'm sure it includes import tax, but no way are the import taxes 100%. So why would I ever pay $330 for shoes when I can buy them in Germany for half that. I wont, I'll go shoe shopping in Germany. 

Different product, same idea. The disparity in prices annoys me, although I am perfectly capable of paying it.


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## martemchik

MadLab said:


> do share.



You and I both know that I can't do that on this forum. But if you are interested, basically every ASL breeder in Wisconsin charges right around $1200. None of the prices are posted on the Internet, but feel free to call them and find out. They are no where near the $5000 you seem to have gotten from no where.

And yes, this is first hand information which I received as a member of the GSDCW. Knowing these people, seeing them sell litters and litters of puppies. Seeing the puppies in class and at the club. Trust me, none of those owners paid anywhere near the random $5000 you seem to have found somewhere.


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## martemchik

You're all using a breeder or two you've heard of or might've actually contacted. I guarantee you that I can find a breeder in Germany that charges well over 800 euro and make the same argument you're making. Just because you find a handful of breeders charging $2000, doesn't mean everyone is doing it. And just because you know a handful of German breeders charging 800 euro, it doesn't mean everyone is doing that either. Case in point...Drago com Patriot puppies can easily be had at way less than $2000. So can Iron Von Den Wolfen puppies. Quit scaring people and telling them a one time experience or a single visit to a website where a breeder might be charging $2000+.

At the end of the day, people charge what they can get. If they can sell 10 puppies at $1800, and most times they'll have at least 2 or 3 very knowledgeable people buying from them, there's no reason to sell them for less.

It's a tough sell to someone that's never actually worked a dog, trained it for anything, and doesn't understand the costs that go into getting a dog to a level that many "knowledgable" people will approve of. Is there some profit to be had? Sure...but I'm very lost about why a profit needs to be limited if people are clearly willing to pay it.

Do you guys know the markup on most of the things you buy? It's pretty crazy...yet you buy them without complaining. But this...this is an issue. Take your hands out of other people's pockets, try doing it yourself and then see what you'd be charging for a puppy. I'm sure no one that's commenting about the high cost of a puppy is going to be that willing to take a discount just to deflate the market and provide a good dog to a good home, or put a BYB out of business.


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## lhczth

Breeders are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we charge too much people complain. If we don't charge enough people wonder why. 

Stud fees in the USA are also much higher than in Germany (don't know about the rest of Europe). BSP winner, multiple WUSV competitor, proven producer from a litter of top working dogs from a long line of top producers are around $500 EU (at the time I was there that was around $725). In the states, Nationals winning dogs, multiple WUSV competitors, maybe proven producers, sometimes not are often $1500. That adds to the expense. 

I bought my first GSD in 1985 for $500 out of titled and health tested (that meant hips back then) stock. Mom was SchH1, dad was 'V' rated 10X SchH3 FH KKL1. At that time some of the show line breeders were charging $1500. AKC breeders were around the same as working line breeders. In 1992 I bought my second GSD again out of titled and health tested stock. Pups were now $800 (some more, but this is what I paid). In 1994 I bought my 3rd GSD out of a Nationals competitor who was sent to Germany to breed to a BSP competitor. This pup was $1200 (I borrowed against my life insurance policy to pay for her). In 2003 I had my first litter with puppies priced at $1000. By 2015 pups are around $1500 for unproven producers and up to $2000 for proven producers. Some are a bit higher. Some are crazy nutty and I can't believe people will pay that much. These are working lines. I don't pay much attention to the prices show people get. Prices are market driven, but also driven by how much it costs to do things right, do all of the darn health testing, work and test the dogs, vet fees are becoming crazy high, etc. 

Everything has become more expensive. I will never be able to afford a new truck. The price of a new truck is now more than what my parents paid for their first house in 1972. I think the prices are crazy, but I do not go onto message boards and whine that the auto makers shouldn't charge what they do because it "isn't fair"?


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## MadLab

I am all for good breeding practices. People keeping clean kennels with all dogs and pups being looked after really well. Good nutrition, exercise and training. MAking sure the right pup goes to the right people and so on. It should be work to do it right and that work should be appreciated.

If people are doing it all well then the dog is worth the money as the breeder is a dog man/woman and is doing the work for want of good dogs themselves and for their customers.

A good breeder is maybe just covering costs. I believe breeding done well may not equate to lots of profit at all. 

I'm only against people charging top prices when they don't know what they are doing and are trying to make a quick buck of their prized papered dogs.

It should not be about the piece of paper, rather breeders should be committed to breed good healthy dogs for a function keeping within their breed. The aim should be fit healthy dogs rather than this guys father won a beauty pageant. 

Definitely European prizes are a lot less than the US. Which is better, I don't know.


----------



## dogfaeries

MadLab said:


> Know how much is a AKC champion pup today?
> 
> Would you get one for less than 5000 ???
> 
> You aint gonna get it for the 1200$, 2010 price.
> 
> The price has probably quadrupled since then. Why is anyone guess?
> 
> Has the market inflated. I would say yes. Martinchik says no.
> 
> He offers no proof and me neither. lol



Well, the short answer is no.

I actually own and show ASLs, so I can tell you what they go for around here. Same as they went for back in 2010 when I bought my first two GSDs. 

The cost for Carly and Sage in 2010 was $1500 each. If I had bought Russell, instead of breeding my AKC champion Carly two years ago to get him, I would've had to pay $1500 for him. If you want me to call up all my breeder friends that show and ask them how much they are charging for puppies these days, I'll ask. I have a friend who has 1 week old puppies sired by am AKC Grand Champion sable male. I'm pretty sure her puppies will be in the same ball park as everyone else around here that shows and breeds ASLs.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Hey Diane way off topic.... you gonna be in Stillwater this weekend? 

Back on topic.


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## dogfaeries

Stillwater? Dog show?


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## WesS

I think the issue most people have is how hard it is to get good information, especially as a new dog owner. 

When you buy a new car, all the stats are there, all the reviews are there. Brand value, reliability, performance etc. You make a pretty informed decision. With dogs this is not really the case. You can be hustled too easily. Good quality dogs come in very reasonable prices, as do 'lesser bred' dogs. 

Then high quality dogs may also come at a premium, but so do 'lesser quality' dogs. I guess you cant fight a countries market price. And to be honest there is a lot more work going into GSD's from breeders than most other breeds. Yet you get those terrible designer dogs riddled with health issues, and just needs to 'look a certain way', and people get to charge exhauberent amounts.

They always pull out the its a companion not a car card. But I think that is a bit unfair. They are selling we are buying. So both have to be happy with the transaction. At the end of the day, we have it pretty good compared to many other breeds that I would not go near with a 10 foot pole.

Overall well bred dogs, probably come at very good prices. Then you have the fringe guys, littering the market, and diluting it, and charging the same high prices. For the very informed. This is not an issue. It serves them well. For your average dog owner, this is a huge frustration.


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## Jax08

Capitalist society...if you don't like the price, keep looking. If you don't like the contract, keep looking. No reason to argue with anyone about it.


----------



## dogfaeries

_Off topic:

Okay, just looked Stillwater up on Onofrio. So yes, I'm going, LOL. I'll drive up there Saturday. Unless we have severe storms. Carolyn Herbel is judging the herding group. Carly's grandfather was one of her dogs (he was a Leroy Brown son). Okay, too much useless info, LOL. I have friends showing this weekend. I don't have anyone entered. Carly's blowing coat. Sage is unfortunately retired due to her illness, which makes me sad. So close to finishing her. And Russell is still a doofus. Are you doing rally or obedience?
_

Okay, back on topic.

If someone wants to buy Russell for $5000, I'm sure I could be persuaded to let him go. He's out of my AKC champion. They would need their head examined though. Most of the time I'm not sure he's worth $5.

I've been a dog groomer since I was 22 years old. I'm 59 now. You do the math. I've been grooming forever. I have had VERY few customers spend any serious money for a puppy in all that time. And by serious money, I mean over $200-$300. Overwhelming BYB dogs and puppy mill dogs. I get really excited when I get a new dog that is obviously a quality dog. In the last 20 years, that equates to 1 Shetland Sheepdog, 5 Miniature Schnauzers, 1 Maltese, 1 Yorkie and 1 Miniature Poodle. Seriously that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I wish it was different. I get really tired of grooming unattractive dogs with sketchy temperaments because my customers don't want to shell out any money, OR they want it NOW and get a dog from a BYB or mill.


----------



## asja

WesS said:


> I think the issue most people have is how hard it is to get good information, especially as a new dog owner.
> 
> When you buy a new car, all the stats are there, all the reviews are there. Brand value, reliability, performance etc. You make a pretty informed decision. With dogs this is not really the case. You can be hustled too easily. Good quality dogs come in very reasonable prices, as do 'lesser bred' dogs.
> 
> Then high quality dogs may also come at a premium, but so do 'lesser quality' dogs. I guess you cant fight a countries market price. And to be honest there is a lot more work going into GSD's from breeders than most other breeds. Yet you get those terrible designer dogs riddled with health issues, and just needs to 'look a certain way', and people get to charge exhauberent amounts.
> 
> They always pull out the its a companion not a car card. But I think that is a bit unfair. They are selling we are buying. So both have to be happy with the transaction. At the end of the day, we have it pretty good compared to many other breeds that I would not go near with a 10 foot pole.
> 
> Overall well bred dogs, probably come at very good prices. Then you have the fringe guys, littering the market, and diluting it, and charging the same high prices. For the very informed. This is not an issue. It serves them well. For your average dog owner, this is a huge frustration.


One problem: many people do not even know what a well-bred dog looks like, because they have only seen the poorly bred BYB dogs. I've seen many, many more badly bred German Shepherds than I have well-bred ones. Same with Labradors and Golden Retrievers.


----------



## WesS

asja said:


> One problem: many people do not even know what a well-bred dog looks like, because they have only seen the poorly bred BYB dogs. I've seen many, many more badly bred German Shepherds than I have well-bred ones. Same with Labradors and Golden Retrievers.


Well I guess that drives the point even further. You are right. A lot of people think they have top bred dogs when they might not. After all, when a breeder markets his dogs, he is not going to say. Well. My breeding is not the greatest. I took shortcuts here and there. He is going to market the dogs, same as everybody else and compete in similar markets.


----------



## dogfaeries

WesS said:


> Well I guess that drives the point even further. You are right. A lot of people think they have top bred dogs when they might not. After all, when a breeder markets his dogs, he is not going to say. Well. My breeding is not the greatest. I took shortcuts here and there. He is going to market the dogs, same as everybody else and compete in similar markets.


Around here, they _don't_ think they've bought a top bred dog. They've bought a _purebred_ dog. That's what most people (i.e. the general population that I deal with on a daily basis) care about. I hear all the time at the grooming shop that they didn't buy a "show dog". Yeah, no kidding.


----------



## Kaimeju

Judging by my local yard sale FB page, most people seem to be looking for purebread dogs.

I wonder if they have been health tested for ergot...


----------



## wolfstraum

Hey Lisa - a new truck like mine is MORE than I paid for my house - even one with 100K on it is over $20K!!! And I have pretty much worn out two of them now....

I agree that breeders are damned either way....and WHY is it a crime for a breeder to make some profit for his time, work, effort and risk???? Stud fees for "known" dogs are up to $2000 for some....but the breeder who invests in his dogs should take huge losses and sell pups for $800? How much do you think cleaning up dog poop 5x a day is worth???? Would you pay someone to do it??? So breeders should sell pups cheaply, and do all this work for free? 

Thank goodness that there are people out there who are novices who understand that when buying a companion puppy it is just as, if not more important, to find a good breeder who can match them up. And realize the value of that knowledge.

Too bad it is so rare.

Lee


----------



## Moriah

wolfstraum said:


> Hey Lisa - a new truck like mine is MORE than I paid for my house - even one with 100K on it is over $20K!!! And I have pretty much worn out two of them now....
> 
> I agree that breeders are damned either way....and WHY is it a crime for a breeder to make some profit for his time, work, effort and risk???? Stud fees for "known" dogs are up to $2000 for some....but the breeder who invests in his dogs should take huge losses and sell pups for $800? How much do you think cleaning up dog poop 5x a day is worth???? Would you pay someone to do it??? So breeders should sell pups cheaply, and do all this work for free?
> 
> Thank goodness that there are people out there who are novices who understand that when buying a companion puppy it is just as, if not more important, to find a *good breeder who can match them up. And realize the value of that knowledge.
> *
> Too bad it is so rare.
> 
> Lee


I had complete confidence in my breeder after seeing her set-up, the dam, and the litter at 5 weeks. The puppies were very well taken care of and socialized extensively. The Monks of New Skete took two puppies from the litter which was a repeat breeding. (They had one dog already from the first breeding.) 

My 9-week old pup was almost completely potty trained and had basic commands--my friends couldn't believe it. This was due to the work of the breeder.

Finding a breeder that can correctly match the puppy to the lifestyle of the owner is "priceless." I got the dog I wanted--worth every penny!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...and plenty of them were selling WLs for around $1000 Max. I called several breeders as I was in the market.

That's also the price that was the median number thrown around on this site when people asked.

Again, the problem isn't so much the price as why has it gone up so much? That's usually a good indicator that something in the market is out of balance. 

Max, the thing is, if you think the market is efficient then by the same token you can't point at people buying puppies that do not fit the criteria they espoused and breeders that aren't towing the line they said they would? 

Either the market is efficient or it isn't. You've pointed out flaws that I've agreed with. Now you don't see the flaws I and some others see as well. It's one of those you can't have it both ways deals. I don't mind giving you credit for your keen observations, but I don't see you returning the favor my friend.

I see both sides of this.

Btw horse folks, anyone remember the Arabian horses in the 80s? 






martemchik said:


> In 2010, there were plenty of breeders selling dogs for $1500+
> 
> Thank you for quoting one person, that did not provide any kind of actual data as well, or provide the references where she got those figures. I know for a fact that in my area, in 2010, an ASL out of a champion dog was $1200. I also know that many working lines were around the same amount. Depending on lines, the sire/dam used, those prices went up. I also know that the prominent WGSL breeders in my area were charging basically what they are charging today. Those prices have stayed about the same in the last 5 years. I know this...because I purchased a dog in 2010 and did a lot of research on price.
> 
> BTW...plenty of other things in the United States have clearly outpaced wage inflation. Cars, houses, are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:spittingcoffee:




Kaimeju said:


> Judging by my local yard sale FB page, most people seem to be looking for purebread dogs.
> 
> I wonder if they have been health tested for ergot...


----------



## martemchik

You guys are looking for slight inefficiencies that will exist in any market. As a whole, the market is efficient. The lack of knowledge of some people, doesn’t make a market inefficient. The ability of some to game the market, is also not something that makes it inefficient. The US stock market is considered one of the most efficient markets in the world…yet if you don’t know anything about investing, don’t know how to analyze a financial statement and figure out the earnings potential of a company, it doesn’t help you much when you decide to enter the stock market yourself. Puppies, are the same exact thing. The information is out there, it’s up to the buyer to figure things out and figure out which breeders are worth the money and which are just gaming the market.

Unfortunately, the low price of entry, causes people to not want to do research. The more something costs, the more research people generally do. Something that costs less than a big screen television…doesn’t need much research. On top of that, the research necessary is more than likely away from a computer screen and not possible through just google. Just because the information and knowledge is harder to get, doesn’t make the market inefficient.

I also know for a fact that the majority of breeders we have on this forum, were charging more than $1000 in 2010, and I’m pretty sure they haven’t raised their prices since then. Really not sure where you’re getting your low figures from, it’s almost as ridiculous as the one poster who thought a puppy from an AKC champion was $5000. Maybe you’re talking club level IPO titled dogs…those are probably around $1200 today. But once you get to regional champions and national qualifying dogs as studs, you’ll see that price go up.

Basically…until you start seeing breeders dropping prices on litters because they can’t sell all their puppies, or are dumping them at the pound because of the same reason…the market is working. As long as there are people willing to pay whatever it is that particular breeder is asking, no amount of whining from people that don’t have the knowledge or experience to truly understand the “worth” of a particular litter is going to do anything to convince me that the market isn’t working.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It's not a crime, I don't think anyone is implying that? 

On the one hand breeders often say they don't do this for the money, on the other hand they can't breed and give puppies away either.

Most breeders I've met have "day jobs" they don't rely on breeding as a sole source of income. There are a few who do but I surmise they are in the minority (?). Ultimately it's a business and as both I and my hubby own small businesses I can assure you the "damned either way" is not an experience unique to breeders. I often have people contacting me and belittling the worth of what I do in an effort to get something for nothing. You guys are not alone in that. Hubs just dealt with a character like that yesterday.

That's just the way it is and has always been so....




wolfstraum said:


> <snipped>
> 
> I agree that breeders are damned either way....and WHY is it a crime for a breeder to make some profit for his time, work, effort and risk???? Stud fees for "known" dogs are up to $2000 for some....but the breeder who invests in his dogs should take huge losses and sell pups for $800? How much do you think cleaning up dog poop 5x a day is worth???? Would you pay someone to do it??? So breeders should sell pups cheaply, and do all this work for free?
> 
> Thank goodness that there are people out there who are novices who understand that when buying a companion puppy it is just as, if not more important, to find a good breeder who can match them up. And realize the value of that knowledge.
> 
> Too bad it is so rare.
> 
> Lee


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Nope. Wall O text doesn't change it. You can't point to ignorant buyers or breeders who don't follow the "rules" as a problem and then claim the market is efficient. Per your own observation, it's not.

Anyhow. Big picture it's not that big of a deal. I worry more about things that I literally cannot live without, that I may not be able to afford in the near future. I can live without another dog.....don't want to though. 

I also know for a fact that you could get a nice WL dog for around $1000 in 2010 Max. I was seriously looking at the time and doing a LOT of research. That was the average price I was quoted. 

Yeah there were some higher and some a bit lower, also I was *not* looking at WGSL, this was strictly for WL dogs.

(Oh don't get me started on the stock market.....we will end up way off topic but in short, doesn't really compare to puppy market anyways....)




martemchik said:


> You guys are looking for slight inefficiencies that will exist in any market. As a whole, the market is efficient. The lack of knowledge of some people, doesn’t make a market inefficient. The ability of some to game the market, is also not something that makes it inefficient. The US stock market is considered one of the most efficient markets in the world…yet if you don’t know anything about investing, don’t know how to analyze a financial statement and figure out the earnings potential of a company, it doesn’t help you much when you decide to enter the stock market yourself. Puppies, are the same exact thing. The information is out there, it’s up to the buyer to figure things out and figure out which breeders are worth the money and which are just gaming the market.
> 
> Unfortunately, the low price of entry, causes people to not want to do research. The more something costs, the more research people generally do. Something that costs less than a big screen television…doesn’t need much research. On top of that, the research necessary is more than likely away from a computer screen and not possible through just google. Just because the information and knowledge is harder to get, doesn’t make the market inefficient.
> 
> I also know for a fact that the majority of breeders we have on this forum, were charging more than $1000 in 2010, and I’m pretty sure they haven’t raised their prices since then. Really not sure where you’re getting your low figures from, it’s almost as ridiculous as the one poster who thought a puppy from an AKC champion was $5000. Maybe you’re talking club level IPO titled dogs…those are probably around $1200 today. But once you get to regional champions and national qualifying dogs as studs, you’ll see that price go up.
> 
> Basically…until you start seeing breeders dropping prices on litters because they can’t sell all their puppies, or are dumping them at the pound because of the same reason…the market is working. As long as there are people willing to pay whatever it is that particular breeder is asking, no amount of whining from people that don’t have the knowledge or experience to truly understand the “worth” of a particular litter is going to do anything to convince me that the market isn’t working.


----------



## martemchik

I guess I'm just trying to see what information, pertinent to the value of a dog, isn't publically available or easily attained by a prospective buyer...

As long as that information is available...the market will work.


----------



## WesS

Hahah did he just point to the stock market as being efficient?

Just openned a big can of worms right there. People with apparently illegal insider information have made billions, and poor uninformed investors going to 'professionals' for guidance have lost their entire life savings. Pick another example of efficiency. The inflatory vehicle of destruction is not it.
Wolf of Wall Street pretty much sums it up. And yes that really happened, and it's still happening. Maybe as not blatantly.

The majority of dog buyers have severely imperfect information in buying dogs. The guys doing 'perfect' breeding are actually probably getting short changed. Everyone taking shortcuts is rewarded by being able to sell dogs for more.

That is pretty much the doggie world definition of market inefficiency. It incentivises dropping the standard. (Asl- hello perfect example). 
Many breeders like this, as it's easier to enter market and charge more.

Market efficiency. New car sales is a decent example of market efficiency.


----------



## martemchik

WesS said:


> Hahah did he just point to the stock market as being efficient?
> 
> Just openned a big can of worms right there. People with apparently illegal insider information have made billions, and poor uninformed investors going to 'professionals' for guidance have lost their entire life savings. Pick another example of efficiency. The inflatory vehicle of destruction is not it.
> Wolf of Wall Street pretty much sums it up. And yes that really happened, and it's still happening. Maybe as not blatantly.
> 
> The majority of dog buyers have severely imperfect information in buying dogs. The guys doing 'perfect' breeding are actually probably getting short changed. Everyone taking shortcuts is rewarded by being able to sell dogs for more.
> 
> That is pretty much the doggie world definition of market inefficiency. It incentivises dropping the standard. (Asl- hello perfect example).
> Many breeders like this, as it's easier to enter market and charge more.


Yup...you're right. The 3 people a year that get indicted for insider trading make a market that has billions of transactions a year imperfect. Keep doing your economic research through Hollywood movies, I'm sure most of those movies are quite historically accurate.

America...the land of never taking responsibility for any of your own decisions. Forget personal responsibility, lets see who else we can blame and sue for our own mistakes.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I could fly with that *if* they were at least some standards applied to breeding dogs such as health tests, working tests for working breeds in the US. 

The lack of standards introduces yet more variables into a picture that is already dependent on the variables of genetics (which even the best breeder cannot guarantee).

These variables can be and are overwhelming, therefore the puppy buyer has a very steep learning curve compared to "manufactured" goods. People base decisions on what we've been conditioned to in general, which is if there is oversight (AKC registration) there is assurance of at least some standards of health or workability, utility if you will.

People (myself included) have do a lot of unlearning and then re-learning. It's such a big gap and so much information, misinformation, with no basis for a clean start as to render really inefficient results.

That's why I'm willing to cut puppy buyers a bit of slack on this. 

Like I said it does a disservice to breeders who put much effort and care into their program as well.



martemchik said:


> I guess I'm just trying to see what information, pertinent to the value of a dog, isn't publically available or easily attained by a prospective buyer...
> 
> As long as that information is available...the market will work.


----------



## WesS

martemchik said:


> Yup...you're right. The 3 people a year that get indicted for insider trading make a market that has billions of transactions a year imperfect. Keep doing your economic research through Hollywood movies, I'm sure most of those movies are quite historically accurate.
> 
> America...the land of never taking responsibility for any of your own decisions. Forget personal responsibility, lets see who else we can blame and sue for our own mistakes.


Dude most of them don't ever get cited. The ones that do probably aren't even the real culprits. It's a breeding ground for the rich to get richer from doing almost nothing. They have to seriously mess up for anyone to know. When your rolling with Donald trump jr. And the possie, it's just casual conversation over a round of golf. Ever wonder why golf is the sport of choice for busssinessmen? 

** This comment was uncalled for. ADMIN**


----------



## martemchik

WesS said:


> Dude most of them don't ever get cited. The ones that do probably aren't even the real culprits. It's a breeding ground for the rich to get richer from doing almost nothing.
> 
> You seriously are green behind the ears in nativity.


Dude...give real examples...not anecdotes that no one can prove one way or the other.

Either way, billions of transactions...even if 1000 people are insider trading...do the math. Perfect market.


----------



## GatorDog

I was also in the market around 2009-2010 and specifically remember the working line breeders held to the standards that I wanted charging $1500.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

"Severely imperfect information" that sums it up well.....



WesS said:


> <snipped>
> 
> The majority of dog buyers have severely imperfect information in buying dogs. The guys doing 'perfect' breeding are actually probably getting short changed. Everyone taking shortcuts is rewarded by being able to sell dogs for more.
> 
> That is pretty much the doggie world definition of market inefficiency. It incentivises dropping the standard. (Asl- hello perfect example).
> Many breeders like this, as it's easier to enter market and charge more.
> 
> Market efficiency. New car sales is a decent example of market efficiency.


----------



## WateryTart

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I could fly with that *if* they were at least some standards applied to breeding dogs such as health tests, working tests for working breeds in the US.
> 
> The lack of standards introduces yet more variables into a picture that is already dependent on the variables of genetics (which even the best breeder cannot guarantee).
> 
> These variables can be and are overwhelming, therefore the puppy buyer has a very steep learning curve compared to "manufactured" goods. People base decisions on what we've been conditioned to in general, which is if there is oversight (AKC registration) there is assurance of at least some standards of health or workability, utility if you will.
> 
> People (myself included) have do a lot of unlearning and then re-learning. It's such a big gap and so much information, misinformation, with no basis for a clean start as to render really inefficient results.
> 
> That's why I'm willing to cut puppy buyers a bit of slack on this.
> 
> Like I said it does a disservice to breeders who put much effort and care into their program as well.


I think I agree with this.

I have to admit I'm laughing as Max points out the utter lack of statistical significance of 1000 out of multiple billions of transactions, though. I'm enjoying that.


----------



## lhczth

I bought my first purebred dog in 1983. The only way to get information was through magazines, books and word of mouth. NOW people have the internet. A whole world to research for information on buying dogs whether purebred or mixes from breeders or rescues. There is NO excuse for the lack of knowledge except that people don't want to put in the time. They want what they want NOW and/or pay as little as possible.


----------



## martemchik

Yeah, sorry, again, this is still a customer driven industry. Customer stops supporting breeders that aren't health testing, titling, ect. Breeder will stop breeding dogs eventually when they can’t sell their puppies. Do I see that ever happening? Nope. But the idea of regulation is even more ridiculous. Come on…this is America…and to regulate breeding…just imagine the costs. And I can’t imagine that debate. They’ll either go too far or not far enough…as always.

Majority of people don’t want to learn. They don’t want to do the research. They want the answers given to them and the dog tomorrow. Doesn’t happen that way. I believe it was the OP (now banned) that thought that exact way…

Think of the American auto industry a decade ago. Building sub-par products for decades, customers finally figured it out, the sales dropped, the manufacturers had to change their ways. Until that happens with dogs…nothing is going to change.

Would I love to see the AKC make higher breeding standards? Sure. But even the ones today are too high for some people so they go UKC, CKC, or any of the other KCs out there. Government regulation? No thanks. Last thing we ever need.

There’s a thread going on right now about guarantees…the customer wants everything guaranteed, wants all the risk to be on the breeder. Dog isn’t perfect? Return it for a new one. Until that mindset changes…there will be gaming of the system.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I don't know what to say Alexis.

The middle point was right around $1000 and that was the median price stated on this board numerous times. Some were a bit higher, some a bit lower. The swing was about $200 maximum.

That was for WLs that met the standards generally accepted here as good breeders who tested for HD and worked/titled their dogs in IPO. 

I'm sure you would find breeders charging $1500 at the time but even then I'm seeing the average now starting to push $2000 now a days, give or take that $200 swing again.

That's increase even using $1500 as a median in 2010.

Btw...talking with Max on side bar....





GatorDog said:


> I was also in the market around 2009-2010 and specifically remember the working line breeders held to the standards that I wanted charging $1500.


----------



## WesS

martemchik said:


> Dude...give real examples...not anecdotes that no one can prove one way or the other.
> 
> Either way, billions of transactions...even if 1000 people are insider trading...do the math. Perfect market.


Well somebody has to take big losses? Majority makes small gains, some ruined and the big boys taking it in. Sounds about right. What value do you add to society? It's pretty hard to get your small business up there for starter investment. Wonder who the system is working for?

Roll eyes.

Ps it's more than a few 1000. There was a study once comparing portfolio performance of a chimp (somewhat random selection) a stockbroker and young child. Chimp did worst. Stockbroker did second best, and kid beat the market.

How? Simply by selecting brands he knew like coca-cola and mc d's. He was ahead of the market because many of those businesses started specifically marketing to kids. (Kids dictate many adult spending behaviours). So the kid had somewhat of insider information even though it was by chance.

I actually have real world examples, that I'm not going to share. Happens more than you think. Same way because of the people you know you can select and get good prices on better dogs. Most people however are littered with too much incorrect or profit motivated information in making their choices. The market is not efficient when it comes to dogs. You can argue till you are blue in the face. It's simply not true.


----------



## WesS

lhczth said:


> I bought my first purebred dog in 1983. The only way to get information was through magazines, books and word of mouth. NOW people have the internet. A whole world to research for information on buying dogs whether purebred or mixes from breeders or rescues. There is NO excuse for the lack of knowledge except that people don't want to put in the time. They want what they want NOW and/or pay as little as possible.


Beware the internet. The ultimate knowledge base. Yet the ultimate tool for falling into confirmation bias. Beware your preconceived ideas. Beware your search terms. Beware the site you fall on.

So I ask you based on the Internet are prong collars abusive or not. I can find endless sources going both ways. For people not interested in researching dogs and prong collars from both sides and understanding the training applications. You can much more easily be swayed that it is abusive.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

No gov't involvement, I agree.

AKC would be the best place to start.

The US isn't so much about lack of personal responsibility, it's more about "you aren't the boss of me" sort-a logic. 




martemchik said:


> Yeah, sorry, again, this is still a customer driven industry. Customer stops supporting breeders that aren't health testing, titling, ect. Breeder will stop breeding dogs eventually when they can’t sell their puppies. Do I see that ever happening? Nope. But the idea of regulation is even more ridiculous. Come on…this is America…and to regulate breeding…just imagine the costs. And I can’t imagine that debate. They’ll either go too far or not far enough…as always.
> 
> Majority of people don’t want to learn. They don’t want to do the research. They want the answers given to them and the dog tomorrow. Doesn’t happen that way. I believe it was the OP (now banned) that thought that exact way…
> 
> Think of the American auto industry a decade ago. Building sub-par products for decades, customers finally figured it out, the sales dropped, the manufacturers had to change their ways. Until that happens with dogs…nothing is going to change.
> 
> Would I love to see the AKC make higher breeding standards? Sure. But even the ones today are too high for some people so they go UKC, CKC, or any of the other KCs out there. Government regulation? No thanks. Last thing we ever need.
> 
> There’s a thread going on right now about guarantees…the customer wants everything guaranteed, wants all the risk to be on the breeder. Dog isn’t perfect? Return it for a new one. Until that mindset changes…there will be gaming of the system.


----------



## lhczth

And putting on my ADMIN hat: enough of the Wall street/stock market discussion. It is very off topic. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


----------



## lhczth

I forget WesS that I am not a normal "want it now, darn-it" American consumer. I tend to research things to death before investing money. The couple of times I have been rash I have paid for it. Right now I am driving my realtor nuts.  

People have the resources to research IF they want to take the time to become truly educated. Most do not.


----------



## martemchik

To talk about standards...AKC can't do it. AKC can't set standards for JUST GSD in regards to working titles. So they're out. Can they set health testing standards? Probably...but again, different breeds have different risks.

The SV...self regulation. Participant driven. You want to play? You have to follow those rules. Can the GSDCA or the USCA do something like that? Sure. With enough resources anything is possible. But then I go back to my last post...breeders will do what they do today, circumvent anything they don't agree with in the first place. Buyers don't care...they want a pointy eared black and tan dog. How often do we have discussions on this forum where 50% of the people are up in arms AGAINST the breed standard and are more than happy to tell everyone how they specifically search out breeders that are going against the standard. Until that type of mindset changes...nothing will change.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. Yes, yes AKC as the umbrella org. for the breed clubs. 

Don't judge so much what people on the forum say as the litmus test for what can be or can't be done.

I guarantee you that a good number of those people go off and after awhile will be repeating that which they have learned as though they had that info all along. 

No one likes to admit they are wrong about something, especially on the inter webs.... 

Critical thinking without hope is cynicism. :sun:



martemchik said:


> To talk about standards...AKC can't do it. AKC can't set standards for JUST GSD in regards to working titles. So they're out. Can they set health testing standards? Probably...but again, different breeds have different risks.
> 
> The SV...self regulation. Participant driven. You want to play? You have to follow those rules. Can the GSDCA or the USCA do something like that? Sure. With enough resources anything is possible. But then I go back to my last post...breeders will do what they do today, circumvent anything they don't agree with in the first place. Buyers don't care...they want a pointy eared black and tan dog. How often do we have discussions on this forum where 50% of the people are up in arms AGAINST the breed standard and are more than happy to tell everyone how they specifically search out breeders that are going against the standard. Until that type of mindset changes...nothing will change.


----------



## WesS

lhczth said:


> I forget WesS that I am not a normal "want it now, darn-it" American consumer. I tend to research things to death before investing money. The couple of times I have been rash I have paid for it. Right now I am driving my realtor nuts.
> 
> People have the resources to research IF they want to take the time to become truly educated. Most do not.


Time is money. Certain things go way too deep to get a working knowledge on.
When professionals give conflicting information, we often stick to one and trust their opinion. 

It's the same with the church we chose. Or a specific dog trainer you trust and follow. Some are bad news. Some are brilliant. And sometimes it's a matter of opinion. 

The reason the people here don't see what I am saying is because they chose to post on a dog forum in their free time. For them this is a hobby. It's fun. It's relaxing. Getting and giving dog info is something they do all the time. 

Now in another industry these decisions might not be so obvious. Take a visit to the yorkieforum. I went there out of interest. I bet the replies I gave some weeks ago are still there. (Top threads) It's a forum filled with questions on how to stop dogs peeing in the house, with no other engagement. Simply put their dog research is not the centre of their lives. They got Yorkies most likely because they are small and cute. But does not necessarily mean they don't care for it.

social experiment for anybody to try: Go to a friend who has never had a gsd. Ask her to pick a gsd from a reputable good breeder. (From Internet) Ask her reasoning for picking that one. See if you would place that dog in your home or more importantly her home, since you the friend.


----------



## lhczth

I don't have any non dog friends.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm a dog nerd and research nut, I'm still afraid of screwing up and I'm running out of time...


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## WateryTart

WesS said:


> social experiment for anybody to try: Go to a friend who has never had a gsd. Ask her to pick a gsd from a reputable good breeder. (From Internet) Ask her reasoning for picking that one. See if you would place that dog in your home or more importantly her home, since you the friend.


If I could get anyone I know to go along with this, I have a feeling the results would be either hilarious or sad. And I say, "if I could get anyone I know to go along with this" because all of my non-GSD acquaintances are people who would stare at me blankly as soon as I said the word "breeder."


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## martemchik

WateryTart said:


> If I could get anyone I know to go along with this, I have a feeling the results would be either hilarious or sad. And I say, "if I could get anyone I know to go along with this" because all of my non-GSD acquaintances are people who would stare at me blankly as soon as I said the word "breeder."


This isn’t a real world situation. It would not be realistic for me to ask this of anyone and not lend them the knowledge and experience that I already have. A real world situation would be when those people, knowing that I have knowledge in this exact field, would go to me for advice because they trust my advice. Therefore I would lead them to a breeder I respect and someone that is providing good value for the cost. To sum it up…a breeder that I would go to.

Here’s a fun fact though…I’ve had plenty of people message me, on and off this forum, asking about various breeder X’s. Each time I tell them my COMPLETELY non-biased opinion about the breeder, pointing out certain issues or as they’re commonly referred to here “red flags” and giving them reasons why I wouldn’t purchase a dog there…the usual reaction is very negative. People react by claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about, or that the breeder knows certain things better than I do. I’m always left with confusion as to why ask me in the first place then…at the end of the day, I couldn’t care less what dog someone I’ve never met and probably never will meet gets. Do I want them to get the best dog for their situation “the way I see it?” Sure…but most people don’t care. They’ve made their decision and are going to go with it. There is an inherent trust that most people have for breeders...completely forgetting that at a certain level...they're salespeople as well and are trying to sell their dogs to you.

Anyways…end of the day, I really don’t care what an “uneducated” buyer who isn’t willing to put in some time and effort into researching breeders is going to pick. I know they won’t get anywhere near what I would consider a good breeder. That’s not a fault of the system, or the market though. It’s the fault of the buyer who isn’t willing to put in a little bit of work in order to get some knowledge before making a decision. In all seriousness…this would change if dogs were 5 figures or more. You’d have people really looking into their buying decision. But when prices are $500-$2000…it’s not a big deal to most people. As long as there is an AKC pedigree to guarantee “purebred” they’ll go with that breeder.


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## WateryTart

martemchik said:


> This isn’t a real world situation. It would not be realistic for me to ask this of anyone and not lend them the knowledge and experience that I already have. A real world situation would be when those people, knowing that I have knowledge in this exact field, would go to me for advice because they trust my advice. Therefore I would lead them to a breeder I respect and someone that is providing good value for the cost. To sum it up…a breeder that I would go to.
> 
> Here’s a fun fact though…I’ve had plenty of people message me, on and off this forum, asking about various breeder X’s. Each time I tell them my COMPLETELY non-biased opinion about the breeder, pointing out certain issues or as they’re commonly referred to here “red flags” and giving them reasons why I wouldn’t purchase a dog there…the usual reaction is very negative. People react by claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about, or that the breeder knows certain things better than I do. I’m always left with confusion as to why ask me in the first place then…at the end of the day, I couldn’t care less what dog someone I’ve never met and probably never will meet gets. Do I want them to get the best dog for their situation “the way I see it?” Sure…but most people don’t care. They’ve made their decision and are going to go with it. There is an inherent trust that most people have for breeders...completely forgetting that at a certain level...they're salespeople as well and are trying to sell their dogs to you.
> 
> Anyways…end of the day, I really don’t care what an “uneducated” buyer who isn’t willing to put in some time and effort into researching breeders is going to pick. I know they won’t get anywhere near what I would consider a good breeder. That’s not a fault of the system, or the market though. It’s the fault of the buyer who isn’t willing to put in a little bit of work in order to get some knowledge before making a decision. In all seriousness…this would change if dogs were 5 figures or more. You’d have people really looking into their buying decision. But when prices are $500-$2000…it’s not a big deal to most people. As long as there is an AKC pedigree to guarantee “purebred” they’ll go with that breeder.


I think you've probably earned the perception of a bit more expertise in your offline crowd, compared with what I have with mine. I have a pretty sweet-natured dog that I've managed not to mess up (yet). I don't have a dog with the titles and work you've put in with yours, and I don't have anywhere close to the knowledge and experience that would make me feel confident about breeding a litter. So you and I are apples and oranges already! If you said this to someone, they'd probably be reasonable in expecting that you'd share legitimate knowledge. Me...eh. 

I think people get defensive when they feel like they're being told that their "best efforts" at research either 1) weren't actually their best efforts or 2) might have been the best they could do but still weren't good enough. I know that's not what you're saying, but people might get emotionally tied to a decision (or a breeder or a puppy) and lash back when you don't tell them what they want to hear.

Remembering my own experience when I knew absolutely nothing about the breed other than that they looked like my ideal in a dog and I wanted one: I went into that research first wondering if it was a good dog for me, and then thinking I'd be seeking out about a $500 puppy, not realizing that those were the BYBs (the Lhasa Apso puppy my parents bought cost $125 back in 1990). I figured out about 10 minutes into my online research that I was actually looking for something much different. I figured out after reading emails and talking to a few different people whether they were actually close to what I was looking for. 

But there was a lot out there within 2 or 3 states of here, and sometimes I'm still surprised I found what I did. So I really do wonder what a random non-GSD friend would come up with if I asked him/her to play "go find me a puppy." I'm easily amused by the hypothetical, what can I say.


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## martemchik

^I don't believe this is the case...you did research, found a good dog, are very happy with your dog, and are happy with the type of breeder that you supported. It would make absolutely no sense for you to not share that experience with one of your friends when they start looking for a dog. Even if you are able to point them to someone else that knows more than you do, that's something.

To let a friend go into all of this blind isn't a real life type of situation...I'd expect anyone that has any experience with GSD to give some level of advice to someone who asks.

Trust me...if someone already does know more than you do, they'll figure it out really quickly from a conversation with you. Not a bad thing...but it will happen.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> ^I don't believe this is the case...you did research, found a good dog, are very happy with your dog, and are happy with the type of breeder that you supported. It would make absolutely no sense for you to not share that experience with one of your friends when they start looking for a dog. Even if you are able to point them to someone else that knows more than you do, that's something.
> 
> To let a friend go into all of this blind isn't a real life type of situation...I'd expect anyone that has any experience with GSD to give some level of advice to someone who asks.
> 
> Trust me...if someone already does know more than you do, they'll figure it out really quickly from a conversation with you. Not a bad thing...but it will happen.


And you are saying your first dog ever was that well researched?


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## martemchik

WesS said:


> And you are saying your first dog ever was that well researched?


No...it wasn't. But what does that have to do with your question/scenario?


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## WateryTart

martemchik said:


> ^I don't believe this is the case...you did research, found a good dog, are very happy with your dog, and are happy with the type of breeder that you supported. It would make absolutely no sense for you to not share that experience with one of your friends when they start looking for a dog. Even if you are able to point them to someone else that knows more than you do, that's something.
> 
> To let a friend go into all of this blind isn't a real life type of situation...I'd expect anyone that has any experience with GSD to give some level of advice to someone who asks.
> 
> Trust me...if someone already does know more than you do, they'll figure it out really quickly from a conversation with you. Not a bad thing...but it will happen.


Ironically, the only time a friend mentioned getting a dog and not knowing where to start, I suggested they research foster-based rescue because they explicitly wanted something that was probably more likely to pop up in rescue, and a foster would be able to tell them what they wanted to know about the dog in front of them (versus my desire for the breeder to be able to tell me about the potential in front of me). But that's true: In a real situation, I'd immediately point a friend actually seeking a GSD to my breeder, and then (or through them) to the person who actually bred my puppy.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> No...it wasn't. But what does that have to do with your question/scenario?


Everything. Mine was not either. Its enough to get any dog from any breeder. As long as no health issues, most wont complain, and probably will just go to same breeder. Basically all I am saying, is that a lot of Imperfect Information is the norm for most buyers in dog market. And when there is a ton of imperfect information, we have market failures. Cant put it any simpler.

So most people buying 'premium' dogs, are in fact overpaying, for substandard dogs. Those that know whats going on very well, are likely getting good deals, infact, probably underpaying, but those are by far the minority.

Moral of the story. I guess is research before buying. I think everyone is in consensus here. Because you likely, will end up overpaying if you don't. I differ from you in that you think that is ok. I think its not really. But thats just personal opinion.


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## martemchik

WesS said:


> Everything. Mine was not either.


You have an amazing gift of not actually answering any question that is posed to you and yet insinuating something that is probably only true in your own head.

Explain what my lack of any real connections to GSD before I got into GSD has anything to do with the research I did?


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## WesS

Basically I will cite the American Bully again. Dogs can go upwards of 10 grand. No real breed standard. Sold as 'specialty' dogs. Basically bigger, meaner, looking 'pitbulls'. (going for that tough, bigger is badder and cooler look). 

No regard really for health, no regard for some sort of standard. Just their false advertising, image, and so forth. What are they doing? Getting some big dogs, mixing and matching, In-breeding, and line-breeding, to get their 'speciality lines.

People buy them, with all the promises and breed standardisation, promises and so forth. Based on your previous posts, you are 'against' regulation. Yet you ascribe to titling of dogs. Pedigree, and so forth. That is all a form of standardisation. Partly regulation, when information is more readily available and organised, There are different levels and opinions. But being completely lost in a market makes consumers make stupid decisions with their money.

And its not just about the thrown away cash. Its about bad breeding, being big bussiness. Its about, breeding against health concerns. Its about lies and false promises. Its about complete market misinformation leading to socialy bad results all round.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> You have an amazing gift of not actually answering any question that is posed to you and yet insinuating something that is probably only true in your own head.
> 
> Explain what my lack of any real connections to GSD before I got into GSD has anything to do with the research I did?


Stop asking silly questions. The reasoning is well answered. Now why you did something personally, only you know. Stop asking impossible questions. Stop asking political questions about child social welfare. Maybe you will get some answers, if your questions were not so cynical. I answered the topic at hand in depth from my perspective. Am I supposed to tell you what research you did or didnt do before getting your first dog? You said you didnt look into it much. The topic of conversation was that most people dont either. Its normal behaviour. they do some reading here in there, but nobody has the time to circumnavigate the intricacies and information bomb in the dog world. They just want a puppy to enjoy. It does not make them bad owners either. Ussualy in many industries the onus is on the professionals to provide that clarity. Unfortunately, they all provide clarity with regards to their own gains. Find me a college educated, genticist, behaviourist and a PhD in Dog breeding, running dog breeding standards, regulations etc. And I will show you our lord and saviour. Its a word of mouth industry at the end of the day mostly. Its an outdated form of apprenticeship.


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## martemchik

The difference between what I choose to do and the regulation you speak of, is that I CHOOSE to do what I do. It's my choice. It's not forced on me. Like I stated, it's what the SV is. People choose to belong, and on top of that, buyers choose to go along with the system. The general culture in the United States will not go along with this type of regulation. We've proven it time and time again. That is why BYB exist. They are filling the gap in the market. The only way to stop it? Educate buyers why they need to look for good, reputable, breeders. It's basically an impossible task.

There are actually very few industries where professionals provide clarity. Professionals, by the definition of the word, make money off of their knowledge and ability. They do not provide clarity, just biased information. There is an inherent conflict of interest that exists. Same with breeders, they provide biased information about their dogs. It's up to the buyer to see through the bias, get other opinions, and have the ability to weigh the vast amount of information. The things you speak of, exist in every single industry where someone is buying a product produced by someone else. Dogs just happen to be living beings and something we're all passionate about.

I invite you to join a ford/chevy truck forum. Take a look at how passionate people can get about that topic. Even with all the information, stats, specs, ect available, people disagree and get way more heated than anything on this forum.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> The difference between what I choose to do and the regulation you speak of, is that I CHOOSE to do what I do. It's my choice. It's not forced on me. Like I stated, it's what the SV is. People choose to belong, and on top of that, buyers choose to go along with the system. The general culture in the United States will not go along with this type of regulation. We've proven it time and time again. That is why BYB exist. They are filling the gap in the market. The only way to stop it? Educate buyers why they need to look for good, reputable, breeders. It's basically an impossible task.
> 
> There are actually very few industries where professionals provide clarity. Professionals, by the definition of the word, make money off of their knowledge and ability. They do not provide clarity, just biased information. There is an inherent conflict of interest that exists. Same with breeders, they provide biased information about their dogs. It's up to the buyer to see through the bias, get other opinions, and have the ability to weigh the vast amount of information. The things you speak of, exist in every single industry where someone is buying a product produced by someone else. Dogs just happen to be living beings and something we're all passionate about.
> 
> I invite you to join a ford/chevy truck forum. Take a look at how passionate people can get about that topic. Even with all the information, stats, specs, ect available, people disagree and get way more heated than anything on this forum.


Well when you have professional industries you belong to, like vetenary care, there is a standard of care to adhere to. A standard of practise. Now sure their will always be the vaccine debate and so forth. But generally people trust vets. They all use their services mostly (instead of going to holistic power healer - which would be a reasonable alternative, without that regulation/professional reputation of industry.). And you know if they have that qualification and are accredited they know a substantial amount more than the open breeding market, where anyone can do it. So information becomes more vital. Consumer knowledge becomes more important. That is a market with closer to perfect information.

The chevy market? Sure people will always disagree. Professional vets will disagree between each other too as do people. But its not hard for a buyer to go buy a new car and not get short handed. Its much harder. Now the used car market? Sure thats tough. You will get great bargains if you know your cars, or with right connections, and you will often get short strawed if you don't. 

Either way. Solutions or not. The question is about dog prices. And there IS A LOT of imperfect information and that is one of the prime indicators of a market failure. Those that know less, are more likely to pay more than the worth. Those that know more, are more likely to pay a smaller fee and get exactly what they want, all things being equal. This undoubtedly has an effect on quality of dogs too by most. Wheather and how to change that, is a different debate, and probably a waste of time on this forum (unless people could reach consensus and push it forward, but that is not at all happening here, doubt it would happen in the real world either). But the OP's question I think has been covered from multiple angles and posters.


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## martemchik

So basically...anything that requires an advanced degree. And isn't it interesting that you couldn't come up with any other industry that is that heavily regulated? And you'd probably be pretty amazed at how little regulation there is in veterinary care after the doctor themselves earn a degree. And even with that small level of regulation, there are tons of bad vets out there along with some very good ones...and the information about that is very lacking. That information is probably more hidden than anything to do with breeding GSD. Kind of interesting right...

There is imperfect information ONLY because people CHOOSE not to do research. The information is all out there. Doesn't take a deep investment, or any special resources to gain that knowledge. Just time and an open mind. Basically, your argument boils down to...people are too lazy to do their own research, so regulators need to step in and help them. But it really shouldn't fall on the shoulders of the breeders to do anything that other industries aren't asked/forced to do.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> So basically...anything that requires an advanced degree. And isn't it interesting that you couldn't come up with any other industry that is that heavily regulated? And you'd probably be pretty amazed at how little regulation there is in veterinary care after the doctor themselves earn a degree. And even with that small level of regulation, there are tons of bad vets out there along with some very good ones...and the information about that is very lacking. That information is probably more hidden than anything to do with breeding GSD. Kind of interesting right...
> 
> There is imperfect information ONLY because people CHOOSE not to do research. The information is all out there. Doesn't take a deep investment, or any special resources to gain that knowledge. Just time and an open mind. Basically, your argument boils down to...people are too lazy to do their own research, so regulators need to step in and help them. But it really shouldn't fall on the shoulders of the breeders to do anything that other industries aren't asked/forced to do.


There are only bad vets, because there is SO MUCH expected of their professional competency. Without the minimum std. of education. Maybe they have continous education credits too they have to fullfill to maintain accredation? A vet can maybe inform us on that. Furthermore, with further specilaisation and boards etc. Makes the consumer decision even easier.

Now imagine, if tomorrow, I could advertise treatment for your dog as a vet (with no qualification- maybe some basic knowledge i picked up somewhere random). And I had to compete with a 'bad vet'. His knowledge would, no matter how 'bad' he is, would blow me out the water. 

So the fact is, a vet is only 'bad' because he is regarded and judged on MUCH higher standards. (Pick up a knife and remove a dogs ovaries. Lets see how good the rest of us are at it, in an unregulated market. It's certainly not impossible, after a couple of failures and some learning its possible to get it done. Yet how many different mistakes, or rare occurances, or eventualities would cause numerous dogs to die?) Yet would you go to that guy? Or the 'bad' vet who graduated vetenary school, and is licensed?). How would we even begin to chose competent healthcare professionals, without the Vets std. of excellence. If it does not impress you, watever. But without it we are lost on dog healthcare. It would certainly be a complete wild west.

Meanwhile with the right marketing skills, anyone can sell 'premium' dogs, bred through an online matchmaking Facebook page. Thow in a few statistics, maybe good looks, maybe 'bigger' dogs, maybe call them the best temperment for children. Basically you can do whatever you want. And the scary thing, it can probably work just fine.


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## martemchik

Lol...no, you just think that. It would be pretty easy to figure out that you weren't qualified to do any kind of medical care. It's also not hard to figure out if a breeder raises, trains, trials their own dogs. You're just pulling made up reasons and scenarios out of thin air. "Maybe they have continuing education?" Just maybe...you don't even know huh. Thought you would as that was your one example. BTW...just looked it up in my state. 30 hours every 2 years. Kind of a joke. I need to do almost 3 times more than that in the same time period just to keep my professional certification. And no...I don't hold the lives of living being in my hands on a daily basis.

There isn't anywhere on the internet where you can easily find a vet's statistics or how many animals they had die. The only thing you'll get is one or two pissed off customers writing bad reviews once in a while. But other than that, there is absolutely zero information about the skills and abilities of a veterinarian. The only way to know if they're good or not is...GASP...WORD OF MOUTH. Basically all industries are still word of mouth...you just choose to look at it differently and believe otherwise. Yet you can find a ton of information about breeders, dogs, trials, shows, online. You can see videos of basically every single huge stud dog out there. Most breeders now have videos of all their dogs working on YouTube. Dogs that have made it to nationals or WUSV are definitely on YouTube many times over.

Anyone with any amount of common sense can figure out if a person is a licensed vet or if they're not. Anyone that does a fair amount of research on dogs can figure out when a breeder is what they say they are or aren't. Most people just don't care enough. If a customer falls for "marketing terms" it's their fault. Not the breeder's fault.


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## martemchik

I’ll use your example of a vet…and equate it to dog breeding.

Let’s say we follow the SV system, where an IPO1 is the minimum to breed your dog. So that means, an IPO1 is what you would consider “vet graduates college and is licensed to practice veterinary medicine.” Great. That’s all you get. And guess what? It’s very simple to see if a dog has achieved that minimum level. It says it, right after their name. And trust me, no one is hiding the fact that their dog got an IPO1 for any reason. If it's not there...it means the dog doesn't have it. You can then probably find the trial they got the title at, you can see their score, you can possibly even find video of that trial. A vet? You don’t get any information on their grades, if they graduated first or last in their class, or anything about how long it actually took them to get their degree. You also don’t really know much beyond that little piece of paper that hangs in their office.

In the GSD market today…an IPO1 isn’t required. Oh well. You can see that lack of title. It’s then your choice to buy a puppy from that breeder or not. You see the information. It’s available to you. If you chose to ignore it, or don’t know enough to care about it, that’s on you, not on the breeder. Same with OFA, or any other health checks. If they’re missing from the information provided, ask, or just assume they were more than likely not done. Make your own conclusion from that. Not very difficult. Same logic as what you use to grade a veterinarian…except that you actually do have WAY more information about a potential breeding pair than you do a vet.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> Anyone with any amount of common sense can figure out if a person is a licensed vet or if they're not. Anyone that does a fair amount of research on dogs can figure out when a breeder is what they say they are or aren't. Most people just don't care enough. If a customer falls for "marketing terms" it's their fault. Not the breeder's fault.


This is where eveything you just said falls apart. You said 'Anyone with common sense can figure out if a person is a 'licensed vet'. So you are using the word 'Licensed' to prove that regulation, and minimum standards of practise (I.e. Vetinary degree, and MINIMUM 30 hours every 2 years of continuous education credits). Now what if there were NO minimum standards? How would you tell the difference? 

Sure somebody could possibly become a 'better giver of animal care' without going to vet school in theory. But for every, one of those, there would be at least 1000 who are completely incompetent. As is the case when it comes to any completely unregulated industry.

Ivan B. for example, who is very well known in dog circles, commands a tiny fraction of the following of Ceasar Milan. Yet most knowledgeable in dogs know he is a better trainer. Yet if you ask most people to give you a name of the best dog trainer, they are more likely to say Ceasar Milan to Michael Ellis. When you mention another trainer, they will likely argue, that ceasar is the best and has no equal.

Now ask most people who is the best in animal health care in their area, and the name will almost certainly be a vet. And not some random without a vetinary degree. At least that is by far the most common reply.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> I’ll use your example of a vet…and equate it to dog breeding.
> 
> Let’s say we follow the SV system, where an IPO1 is the minimum to breed your dog. So that means, an IPO1 is what you would consider “vet graduates college and is licensed to practice veterinary medicine.” Great. That’s all you get. And guess what? It’s very simple to see if a dog has achieved that minimum level. It says it, right after their name. And trust me, no one is hiding the fact that their dog got an IPO1 for any reason. If it's not there...it means the dog doesn't have it. You can then probably find the trial they got the title at, you can see their score, you can possibly even find video of that trial. A vet? You don’t get any information on their grades, if they graduated first or last in their class, or anything about how long it actually took them to get their degree. You also don’t really know much beyond that little piece of paper that hangs in their office.
> 
> In the GSD market today…an IPO1 isn’t required. Oh well. You can see that lack of title. It’s then your choice to buy a puppy from that breeder or not. You see the information. It’s available to you. If you chose to ignore it, or don’t know enough to care about it, that’s on you, not on the breeder. Same with OFA, or any other health checks. If they’re missing from the information provided, ask, or just assume they were more than likely not done. Make your own conclusion from that. Not very difficult. Same logic as what you use to grade a veterinarian…except that you actually do have WAY more information about a potential breeding pair than you do a vet.


Wrote a post as you wrote this (post before this one). It addresses this too. I can say Ceasar Milan has never titled an IPO dog. Yet most people think he is the best trainer in the world. In fact most dog owners, will attack people like IvanB for using prongs, and e-collars. Now he leaves people in Awe, so they back off. But a more 'rookie' trainer using those tools, might not impress as much, and be taken to the cleaners in the positive training circles, even though, he may have more working knowledge, and complete understanding. Maybe even titled a dog. Some of the better trainers (compared to average pet dog trainer), get very little pet dog exposure, and are 'forced' to train IPO. Most of the market, has no desire to do IPO. Yet they could learn a lot from such trainers.

Now you could turn this argument against me, through bad regulation. I.e. UK pushing to ban prong/e-collars. So yes regulation, can also go awfully wrong. Pitbull bans is another issue i think is bad regulation. (Reasons are too in depth for this discussion.)


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## martemchik

Lykoz? Is that you?

I'm just sick and tired of you reaching and grabbing for analogies to prove a point. You can't compare dog breeding to random other industries. They aren't the same. What you're doing...would work to prove your point with anything you could possibly try to convince others of. Unfortunately for you...not even dog training is the same as dog breeding.

Sorry...I can't possibly keep up with you switching industries on me every other post just to prove something just because your first analogy was disproven.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> Lykoz? Is that you?
> 
> I'm just sick and tired of you reaching and grabbing for analogies to prove a point. You can't compare dog breeding to random other industries. They aren't the same. What you're doing...would work to prove your point with anything you could possibly try to convince others of. Unfortunately for you...not even dog training is the same as dog breeding.
> 
> Sorry...I can't possibly keep up with you switching industries on me every other post just to prove something just because your first analogy was disproven.


Nope not that guy. Enjoyed some of his threads before he got banned. Know exactly who you are talking about. Was lurking way before. And I liked how he always called out self-proclaimed experts. Only thing I didnt like about Lykoz, is his constant attack on guns. Learnt a decent amount from his style of thinking reading these forums. You obviously see some similarities of opinion, and that bothers you.

You have disproven nothing.


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## martemchik

My place huh? Interesting I'm still here and he's the one banned.


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> My place huh? Interesting I'm still here and he's the one banned.


You are confrontational everywhere you post. I really wonder why you are still here a lot of the time. I have had only positive interactions on this forum, except for you. He had a knack for throwing himself in 'no-go conversations'. You on the other-hand, just like to break down peoples posts, and act important. Highly annoying. Everybody's opinion is important. This is my last comment on all this negativity.


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## GatorDog

People can't be banned for having differing opinions lol.


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## SuperG

* Why Do Puppies Cost So Much?....*because they can ????



SuperG


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## lhczth

WesS said:


> And you are saying your first dog ever was that well researched?


I know you were addressing Max, but I will answer. My first dog ever, the one I had control over the choice, was a mixed breed from the shelter. My first GSD, though, YES, she was that well researched.


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## lhczth

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm a dog nerd and research nut, I'm still afraid of screwing up and I'm running out of time...


At some point, Gwen, you will have to go with your gut. You have done your research now take the leap.


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## WateryTart

lhczth said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are saying your first dog ever was that well researched?
> 
> 
> 
> I know you were addressing Max, but I will answer. My first dog ever, the one I had control over the choice, was a mixed breed from the shelter. My first GSD, though, YES, she was that well researched.
Click to expand...

To add to responses to Wes's question: My first dog ever, when I was a kid, was not well researched. She was available and was of a breed that wouldn't aggravate a family member's allergies. (Luckily she was very sweet and overall pretty healthy.)

My first dog that I chose was very well researched. She's sunning herself in my backyard as I type.


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## alexg

Lysoz is NOT a female?!?


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## Liesje

I guess 19 pages in, my answer to the question "Why do puppies cost so much?" is "What are we defining as 'cost so much'?" 

I've seen a $5000 figure thrown around, but my experience with this board is that the gen pop sees this price as gouging and on par with the large scale commercial breeders that have pricing tiers. I sold a healthy adult dog with a BH, AD, hip and elbow a-stamps done, dental certifications, two SG ratings (one from an SV judge), full AKC, UKC, and USCA registration, titles in dock diving, lure coursing, and flyball, and SchH training nearly ready for SchH1 for less than $5000. That is a price I would expect to see asked by someone with a pre-existing reputation for brokering quality dogs selling a "green" working dog with hips and elbows certified, or a young dog with some training and titles, not an 8 week old puppy.

Is $1500 for an 8 week old dog from a respected breeder with titled, health tested dogs and a reputation for supporting their buyers asking too much? Not to me. I've seen puppies in pet stores and on puppy mill sites for more than that.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes indeed! 



lhczth said:


> At some point, Gwen, you will have to go with your gut. You have done your research now take the leap.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Dogs for $1500 Alex.







SuperG said:


> * Why Do Puppies Cost So Much?....*because they can ????
> 
> 
> 
> SuperG


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## SuperG

GatorDog said:


> People can't be banned for having differing opinions lol.


Hopefully not in this forum....but I was banned for life in some other dog forum for asking if anyone had personal experience using an e-collar to deal with leash reactivity...


SuperG


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## SuperG

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Dogs for $1500 Alex.


Took me a moment to grasp that..

Sounds like a Turd Ferguson quote.


SuperG


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## Castlemaid

They banned you for asking a question? You troublemaker!


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## misslesleedavis1

SuperG said:


> Hopefully not in this forum....but I was banned for life in some other dog forum for asking if anyone had personal experience using an e-collar to deal with leash reactivity...
> 
> 
> SuperG


Lol.
Way to get multiple panties twisted in one shot SuperG!


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## SuperG

Castlemaid said:


> They banned you for asking a question? You troublemaker!


I received numerous replies....not one reply was from a person who had any personal experience regarding my question. I continually responded that I am looking for someone who had any actual experience not sermons or lectures from those who didn't have experience....I guess they didn't like the fact that I suggested they had no experience regarding this matter. I think this particular forum was rather adversely aversive to the use of aversives...which was fine from my side of the fence but not much of a dog training forum overall.


SuperG


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## MamaofLEO

creegh said:


> You know it's funny. So many people talk about 'pet' puppies or 'pet quality' puppies from good reputable breeders (breeders who either breed for IPO or the Show Ring or *insert reason*) as being 'lesser' because they didn't quite make the show/sport/work cut.
> 
> I honestly think that's false.
> 
> I think being just 'a pet' is one of the highest callings a dog can have. One of the hardest 'jobs' a dog can have. Often the toughest thing they can do. We expect so much out of 'just pets' - they are family companions, play with the kids, interact with strangers and family members who come into the home, play with us, put up with our crazy antics and excursions around town and the park.
> 
> And so for many 'pet people' a dog must stable and good natured and social a best friend to the kids, patient, and willing. Do it all with a happy grin and a wagging tail.
> 
> It's a lot to ask of a dog. It really is when you think about it.
> 
> And then they hope that the dog is healthy. That they can live a long life with them and their family. Save them and their children from the heartbreak of having to put a dog down due to a horrible (usually) preventable disease.
> 
> A breeder I talked to a while back said that when she first got her dog - she didn't know any better. Heck she said she wasn't going to do much with the dog, it was just going to be a pet (or so were her expectations at the time). She said to her breeder: oh I'll just take whatever puppy you have. Do you have a runt? I could take a runt.
> 
> The breeder responded: Every dog I produce no matter how good or bad they are, benefits from the time and energy and work I have put into the litter.
> 
> And that really resonated with me.
> 
> You get a good dog from a good breeder be it a top sport prospect or destined to be an active family pet going for walks and sleeping on the couch, a well-bred dog from a good breeder comes with the benefits the breeder put into the dog.
> 
> I wish more people realized this, because they then would get the dog they and their family deserves and (yes we know there are never any guarantees this is a live animal) but some of the heartbreak factors would be mitigated entirely.



100% agree!! :thumbup:


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

Geez can the venom dry up already? It's kinda disgusting watching people just disrespect each other like this is the normal. 

Get over it already! Neither one of you agree so move on. I don't even know what this thread is about anymore. Stop being a bunch of babies about it and agree to disagree. Seriously, I'm fairly certain BOTH of you are closer in age to my mother than me, and I couldn't imagine her acting like this. Grow up, there are more important things in life than being right all the time.


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## WesS

Liesje said:


> Is $1500 for an 8 week old dog from a respected breeder with titled, health tested dogs and a reputation for supporting their buyers asking too much? Not to me. I've seen puppies in pet stores and on puppy mill sites for more than that.


The problem is not the high price when done well. In fact that is okay. The problem is exactly your last line. That puppy mill puppies can go for that much. They are deviating the market and benefiting from bad standards. Its a free for all out there, to the point that quality of breeding is a secondary issue to marketing. You can justify any price on a dog based on misinformation, or strategically marketing your dog as 'family', 'home', great temperment, when they have made no effort to achieve any of this. 

So people are breeding living creatures, selectively, and profiting any way they can. Everyone keeps talking of good breeders. Most people will never find a 'good breeder'. It is certainly an exception rather than the norm.


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## SkoobyDoo

Liesje said:


> Is $1500 for an 8 week old dog from a respected breeder with titled, health tested dogs and a reputation for supporting their buyers asking too much? Not to me. I've seen puppies in pet stores and on puppy mill sites for more than that.


Maybe this is the problem! 
People who inflate their prices when selling mixed breeds as "hybrids" and other untested untitled brood stock!
I mean, because a hybrid should be worth at least $5k!
And those high prices make people think they are a select or elite group of people who can afford those overpriced dogs!
There's no real...guidelines out there, are there, that people can judge by??
People in this thread have been using car lots for examples, well that's a good comparison, because we can all look at a blue book or other "going rates", to see what cars should go for, right?
Well what _do_ well bred puppies go for?? Is there some guidelines somewhere? :crazy:
Hanging out here I can get an idea, but what do people who don't frequent forums use to judge what's too much or too little?

Editing - Hah, WesS you are thinking the same lines as I am!!


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

I agree that $1000 to $1500 for a good solid puppy with health testing or whatever isn't that bad. I didn't always feel this way until I got Bear.

Bear, bred for profit, marketed as a designer breed "Great Shepherd". He's a Great Pyrenees/German Shepherd mix. Yes both parents are AKC registered, but no health testing. You wanna know how much he sold for? $2,500 NO NEGOTIATIONS. There's a sucker born every minute. Makes that $1,000 purebred puppy look a lot more enticing. I can't believe that Bear's 1st owner paid that much for him. My 2000 Intrepid I bought it 2 years ago for $1,300 and it drives me places!


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## WesS

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I agree that $1000 to $1500 for a good solid puppy with health testing or whatever isn't that bad. I didn't always feel this way until I got Bear.
> 
> Bear, bred for profit, marketed as a designer breed "Great Shepherd". He's a Great Pyrenees/German Shepherd mix. Yes both parents are AKC registered, but no health testing. You wanna know how much he sold for? $2,500 NO NEGOTIATIONS. There's a sucker born every minute. Makes that $1,000 purebred puppy look a lot more enticing. I can't believe that Bear's 1st owner paid that much for him. My 2000 Intrepid I bought it 2 years ago for $1,300 and it drives me places!


And to cap this out and put my thoughts on the market forces together. If everybody was breeding better. And bad breeders could not compete with good breeders with use of better information by buyers, and identification standards/requirements (i.e. legally protected use of GSD name). The good breeders prices would invariably have to drop, as they reach market equilibrium, and more people are offering quality dogs. (increased competition for similar dogs).

So as it stands, everybody is paying more for their specific niche of GSD. And there is no competition really between breeders. Which is why the market is broken.
The 'good breeders' will sell to knowledgeable buyers. It suits them in a way because they invariably get better homes for their dogs. And they can charge more. (Others will invariably sell out, and take shortcuts, because they can make the same profit with less work and selling to the rest of the market, where good breeders dont want a part of anyways.)
In the end its a sellers market. Not a buyers one. Not going to change. But that is why the price can get really high I believe.


----------



## Liesje

SkoobyDoo said:


> Maybe this is the problem!
> People who inflate their prices when selling mixed breeds as "hybrids" and other untested untitled brood stock!
> I mean, because a hybrid should be worth at least $5k!
> And those high prices make people think they are a select or elite group of people who can afford those overpriced dogs!


I know people that breed and have been breeding generations of "hybrid" dogs that cost a fraction of $5K (the ones I know personally are $400), waiting lists are 1-2 years or more and each puppy has 3-4 people that would take it in a heartbeat if for some reason the owner couldn't keep it. Depending on the niche, some hybrid breeding is already doing very successfully what many people on this forum complain about being unavailable in GSDs (affordable dogs, breeding dogs healthy, titled and competing 10+ years, plenty of breeder support).



> There's no real...guidelines out there, are there, that people can judge by??
> People in this thread have been using car lots for examples, well that's a good comparison, because we can all look at a blue book or other "going rates", to see what cars should go for, right?
> Well what _do_ well bred puppies go for?? Is there some guidelines somewhere? :crazy:
> Hanging out here I can get an idea, but what do people who don't frequent forums use to judge what's too much or too little?


Plenty of us breed and buy dogs with guidelines. Legitimate registration (so the pedigree/lineage is known which means the health and temperament can be thoroughly researched), minimum health testing like certified hips and elbows (though many also do DM, thryoid, and check the spine). Many show and working line breeders breed based on the German system which means breed surveys. These dogs must at minimum have a Schutzhund or other acceptable working title (RH, HGH), BH, AD (endurance test), certified hips and elbows, and conformation rating of "G" or better in order to enter for a breed survey.

If you want there to be some minimum standards, then make sure to seek out breeders who follow these standards. I don't know who you are or where you get your dogs, but I have seen other people gripe about this only to go out and buy GSDs that some random person has chained to their back deck and allows to breed twice a year and gives you a blank stare when you ask about their lineage. No health testing, training, titles, etc.

http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Kaimeju

I really don't think it's that hard for people to Google "How to find a responsible German Shepherd breeder" and read the top five links or so. That's a despicably small amount of research to be doing for a 10-15 year commitment. In those top five links, you will currently learn about: 

1. The importance of avoiding a badly bred dog.
2. The difference between hip x-rays done at the family vet and OFA certifications.
3. Responsible vs. Backyard breeding
4. Temperament tests (CGC, TT) vs. titles
5. Be wary of breeders aiming for only size or color
6. Genetic testing
7. Referral to local AKC breeders of merit (for what that's worth)
8. Existence of national breed club (hey, maybe those guys might know something about German Shepherds!)

Is it perfect? No. Is it exactly what every member on this forum would like to general public to find? No, everyone will nit pick it to death. But it's enough information to avoid going to a backyard breeder or puppy mill who does zero health testing, or buying a puppy sight unseen over the internet. I wish the AKC was not the first link that came up because their website is terrible, but at least it's not something completely misleading like www.bobsgianthealthygsds.com or whatnot. 

I stand by my original assertion that most people don't realize they should care more about where their next dog comes from, either out of entitlement or honest naivete. Probably a lot of them think dog breeders are mainly good people who love dogs and would never screw them over, or produce sickly puppies. So there is a dearth of healthy suspicion in the general public as well.


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## martemchik

Liesje said:


> *If you want there to be some minimum standards, then make sure to seek out breeders who follow these standards*. I don't know who you are or where you get your dogs, but I have seen other people gripe about this only to go out and buy GSDs that some random person has chained to their back deck and allows to breed twice a year and gives you a blank stare when you ask about their lineage. No health testing, training, titles, etc.


This. Everyone is complaining that there isn't a "minimum standard." Well set one for yourself, spread it to others, and find breeders that adhere to that minimum standard. Unfortunately, people don't care that much. Just look at the "Who's getting a puppy in 2015" thread. People that have been on this forum for years, reading and contributing to discussions about breeding, talking about how they wouldn't buy from this breeder or that breeder because of X, Y, Z...but then going to a breeder that does X, Y, or Z anyways.

Don't expect other agencies to institute minimum standards, make your own and stick to them. Many people in this breed already adhere to SV standards even though they don't have to. If more people trusted in those standards, went to breeders that adhered to those standards, you'd decrease the number of breeders breeding below that standard. But most of the time what you get is, "I don't need a show dog or a Schutzhund dog so I'm just going to go to this breeder that gets CGCs on their dog."

You don't need much knowledge about what titles even mean in order to figure out a price range either...just call some breeders and make your own "dog Kelly blue book." Call 20 breeders, who work/don't work their dogs to various standards, and you'll see how most of them will fall on a pretty straight forward price chart. Do X, charge Y more. Do A, charge B more. It's really not that complicated. And if you just look at the titles/health checks, you'll quickly see the breeders that are charging B more even though they didn't do A.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Agree. However- For a WL (from a breeder that checks hips,works and titles in IPO but not necessarily SV conformation) the prices are starting at $1800, $2000 is not uncommon. 

There is a litter that will be a WL/Mali cross for $1500, locally. 

I guess people are able to afford these increases. 

It doesn't matter what market we are talking about, it always gives me pause when price increases exceed income growth. That's the Econ nerd side of me though....




Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I agree that $1000 to $1500 for a good solid puppy with health testing or whatever isn't that bad. <snipped>


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Ya. We don't need Doctors to pass all kinds of exams and tests and what not.

You should learn how the surgery you need is performed and then select a Doctor based on your research. Anyone can learn that rapidly and thoroughly enough, yes?

O.K. So we know that's not reasonable, why?

Because somethings in life aren't neat and easy and there needs to be agencies to institute standards as the information is "severely imperfect".

Dogs aren't as complex as open heart surgery but the point is that minimum standards gives people a better chance for a better outcome.

There is a line to be drawn here. At some point the line is the education curve for the average consumer is just too steep to be considered reasonable. Registered dogs are getting into that territory IMO.

Minimum standards across the board set and enforced through registration by breed clubs would be good for breeders, good for puppy buyers and good for the dogs as well. We see how this model works in Germany. Is it perfect? No. Is it better, per our friends on this forum who lived in or are from Germany (including my relatives one of whom was a SchH judge in Germany) yeah, it's better. 




martemchik said:


> *Don't expect other agencies to institute minimum standards, make your own and stick to them.* Many people in this breed already adhere to SV standards even though they don't have to. If more people trusted in those standards, went to breeders that adhered to those standards, you'd decrease the number of breeders breeding below that standard. But most of the time what you get is, "I don't need a show dog or a Schutzhund dog so I'm just going to go to this breeder that gets CGCs on their dog."
> 
> You don't need much knowledge about what titles even mean in order to figure out a price range either...just call some breeders and make your own "dog Kelly blue book." Call 20 breeders, who work/don't work their dogs to various standards, and you'll see how most of them will fall on a pretty straight forward price chart. Do X, charge Y more. Do A, charge B more. It's really not that complicated. And if you just look at the titles/health checks, you'll quickly see the breeders that are charging B more even though they didn't do A.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh and price range and titles do not coincide. What *seems* to be setting prices are the lower quality breeders riding the coat tails of the better breeders. The good breeders see what the lower quality breeders are getting and think, "If that BYB guy can get that much I should get more as I actually put the work into my dogs."

The lesser breeders follow suit quickly and so it goes on.

It would be sort of be like Chevy charging Cadillac prices for their little sub compact. Then Cadillac charging more because they put a lot more into their cars.

This doesn't happen because consumers clearly understand the difference and worth between a little sub compact and a Cadillac. The specs are clearly visual and the mechanical differences listed on the window sticker.

Dogs don't come with window stickers or even a consistent basis by which to judge the worth of X breeder vs Y breeder, unless....you spend a good amount of time learning about what I like to call "The most complicated breed in the world".



(In edit, just read WesS last post, what he said! . I agree with his summation of this market, that's the reality)


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## martemchik

Until the general public accepts some responsibility, and accepts that they need to be prudent, no amount of regulation by any NON-GOVERNMENT agency will change anything.

In Germany...there is an acceptance among the general public that they need to respect what the SV is doing. In America...people don't care. AKC registered dog is $800? That's too much, I'll go with UKC for $400. Breeders even have amazing marketing lines where they tell people how bad and evil the AKC is and that's why they do UKC registration, or even better CKC.

People will always go around clubs or voluntary regulations unless those regulations start affecting their revenue source. The amount of GSD breeders that are USCA or GSDCA members is a minority. You don't need to be a part of those groups to breed dogs. Now...what if as a consumer, you made your standard that the breeder you went with had to be part of one of those organizations? Well then I bet that after a breeder heard from 10 different potential customers that they won't buy from them unless they join one of those organizations...they'd probably join one.

And stop comparing dog breeding to professions that require a doctorate to practice. Or are we saying that every single job will soon require a doctorate otherwise those people are clearly useless?

Like I said...look at the "who's getting a puppy" thread. People that have been on this forum, have learned all about having some sort of minimum standard, are still going against that standard. People are easily swayed by a nice tone of voice, or a friendly conversation that has nothing to do with dogs. Many times...people on this forum give the advice, "you're buying the breeder not the dog." Why? The dog is the easy thing to be objective about, the breeder isn't. Dogs are extremely easy to be objective about, but people choose not to be. They choose to fall in love with the first fluffy puppy they see and not do the leg work to find out more.

BTW...working lines out of titled/health tested dogs start at around $1200, you get higher prices when the dogs have achieved those titles at higher level trials and have clearly shown an ability above and beyond that of a "club level" titled dog. And are there breeders that have "club level" dogs charging $1800...sure. But it's really not hard to figure out that information. A simple, "can I see the score book?" would give you that information.

The information about dogs is much easier to find and get than in most industries. But I'm figuring out what this thread is about..."minimum standard is all that matters." Doctor knows the minimum? That's fine with us. Why go to a specialist with years and years of experience? This guy straight out of med school clearly has the minimum amount of knowledge.

And the car comparison...doesn't work either. The parts in a Cadillac cost just as much as the parts in the Chevy. Both vehicles will do the same exact thing...get you from point A to point B. Some people, who have the ability, choose to purchase the more expensive vehicle. It has nothing to do with any "real" value of the car in front of them. Most of it has to do with the image of the car, and I've seen plenty of people call others idiots for buying a luxury vehicle, or even a new car. Each person has the right to value whatever they purchase in their own way...until we can get most people on board with valuing minimum standards, no amount of regulation by any agency will do anything.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It doesn't work that way Max. There is prudent and then there is chaotic gaming of an unsuspecting general public.

In bold, there in lies the problem. Only difference- I don't think it's that people don't care, I think it's this ingrained contrariness for the sake of being contrary (aka cutting off the nose to spite the face) that besets the U.S. 

Don't tell me how to present my points either. I inserted caveats in it. I don't tell you what you can use to support your POV and would appreciate the same respect in return.

I don't buy into perfect is the enemy of good either.

I agree with WesS final conclusion. It's a sellers market driven not by the work a good breeder puts in to the dog but rather gaming the lack of knowledge of puppy buyers in general. Foisting the responsibility, 100% onto puppy buyers and employing a bit of ad hom (they don't care, they are lazy) just doesn't fly logically.

(P.s. $1200 where?!)




martemchik said:


> Until the general public accepts some responsibility, and accepts that they need to be prudent, no amount of regulation by any NON-GOVERNMENT agency will change anything.
> 
> * In Germany...there is an acceptance among the general public that they need to respect what the SV is doing. In America...people don't care. AKC registered dog is $800? That's too much, I'll go with UKC for $400. Breeders even have amazing marketing lines where they tell people how bad and evil the AKC is and that's why they do UKC registration, or even better CKC.*
> 
> People will always go around clubs or voluntary regulations unless those regulations start affecting their revenue source. The amount of GSD breeders that are USCA or GSDCA members is a minority. You don't need to be a part of those groups to breed dogs. Now...what if as a consumer, you made your standard that the breeder you went with had to be part of one of those organizations? Well then I bet that after a breeder heard from 10 different potential customers that they won't buy from them unless they join one of those organizations...they'd probably join one.
> 
> And stop comparing dog breeding to professions that require a doctorate to practice. Or are we saying that every single job will soon require a doctorate otherwise those people are clearly useless?
> 
> Like I said...look at the "who's getting a puppy" thread. People that have been on this forum, have learned all about having some sort of minimum standard, are still going against that standard. People are easily swayed by a nice tone of voice, or a friendly conversation that has nothing to do with dogs. Many times...people on this forum give the advice, "you're buying the breeder not the dog." Why? The dog is the easy thing to be objective about, the breeder isn't. Dogs are extremely easy to be objective about, but people choose not to be. They choose to fall in love with the first fluffy puppy they see and not do the leg work to find out more.
> 
> BTW...working lines out of titled/health tested dogs start at around $1200, you get higher prices when the dogs have achieved those titles at higher level trials and have clearly shown an ability above and beyond that of a "club level" titled dog. And are there breeders that have "club level" dogs charging $1800...sure. But it's really not hard to figure out that information. A simple, "can I see the score book?" would give you that information.
> 
> The information about dogs is much easier to find and get than in most industries. But I'm figuring out what this thread is about..."minimum standard is all that matters." Doctor knows the minimum? That's fine with us. Why go to a specialist with years and years of experience? This guy straight out of med school clearly has the minimum amount of knowledge.


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## GatorDog

I know of two other working line breeders in the general area to me who charge as much as I'm asking for my litter.

The one has a few dogs out of their own breeding program, the highest level of titling of her own breeding dogs is a BH, and then the others have been imported. So no actual work has/is being done on the breeders part, in all reality.

Then the other has phenomenal working lines, imported and bred to titled dogs here or imported pregnant. 

And then there's me. Having titled this dog, handler, owned and trained from 8 weeks (which the general public does not care about at all), bred to another HOT titled dog, and asking for the same price. Who do you think really knows more about these dogs? Who's responsibility is it to recognize the scam behind their breeding practices and lower their prices? Because if someone can breed a few dogs together, keep back some males and females, breed them at 2 years and get the same amount for a puppy, then why should I not sell for at least the same?


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## martemchik

The public isn't as unsuspecting as you think. Most buyers have an amount they'll pay for a dog. They'll look for a dog within that price range. The issue is that in general, people don’t look at more than one breeder. They find one, they fit the price range, seem to produce good family pets, and they go with them. A puppy, simply doesn’t cost enough (in general) to do a lot of research. The best comparison I can come up with…is a TV. They’re somewhere from $500 to $5000 depending on the model. Most people have a price limit, go to the store, find one that fits, buy that TV. Some will do a lot of research online, look through specs, look through reviews, and then make a purchase. End of the day, it really depends on the consumer and how much that purchase matters to them. Once you get into the $10,000+ purchase category, that’s usually a much bigger purchase for “regular people” and so there is more research done. But a few hundred, or even thousand, usually time isn’t committed to the research and the purchase is just made.

The only reason this is even an issue…is that people on this board are passionate about dogs. So they take their passion to the next level and want regulation, they want things the way they believe they should be in their head. But I look at the general public as a whole, and the market works for them. The market works for those willing to put in the time, and the market works for those that don’t take too much time to research either. You really don’t get too many issues with dogs. We get 1 or 2 a month on this forum? I rarely see any kind of press due to a GSD related issue. Are dogs being bred that aren’t to MY standard? Absolutely…but MY standard will never be the minimum standard so there will always be dogs being bred that are below MY standard.

To put it simply…the minimum standard in this country of a purebred dog is AKC registration…and there are still thousands of dogs being bred that don’t have that. Why? Customers keep buying those dogs. How often do we see “I don’t need papers because I don’t plan to show/trial/breed?” Until that mindset changes…no amount of regulation will do anything. This is cultural, it has very little to do with the industry itself.


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## lhczth

Prices are what they are because that is what the market is willing to pay. As I said earlier, breeders are damned one way or the other. We charge too much and people complain. If we don't charge enough, people wounder why. 

Personally, I agree that puppy prices in the USA are too high for what is essentially a prospect. People in Europe don't pay these prices for puppies, but then they are far more willing to cough up the money for young started dogs. This is all moot, though, because as long as people are willing to pay the prices here they are not going to go down no matter how much you or anyone else complains. 

BTW, Max, high level competition dogs are not the only measure of value. Proven producers also bring higher prices (proven to produce the dogs that are in demand for either sport, the working fields or both).


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## lhczth

I guess I was never a normal consumer. I usually found what I wanted and then figured out a way to pay for it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That is honorable, no question, to a certain extent. There comes a point where the prices aren't really reflective of true value.

I'm not a normal consumer either. I don't like inflated markets because they tend to go bust. So I've never fallen for any of the "bubble" markets be it Arabians in the '80s or houses in the early 2000s.

So it's not me I'm worried about but I like give the benefit of the doubt to people.

In edit are GSDs entering a "bubble market" phase. I will not say yes, for sure, but I do see some indicators they maybe headed that way.



lhczth said:


> I guess I was never a normal consumer. I usually found what I wanted and then figured out a way to pay for it.


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## GatorDog

lhczth said:


> I guess I was never a normal consumer. I usually found what I wanted and then figured out a way to pay for it.


This is what I've experienced. And with the people who are seriously interested in any puppies of mine, they ask questions about price last.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That is honorable, no question, to a certain extent. There comes a point where the prices aren't really reflective of true value.
> 
> I'm not a normal consumer either. I don't like inflated markets because they tend to go bust. So I've never fallen for any of the "bubble" markets be it Arabians in the '80s or houses in the early 2000s.
> 
> So it's not me I'm worried about but I like give the benefit of the doubt to people.
> 
> In edit are GSDs entering a "bubble market" phase. I will not say yes, for sure, but I do see some indicators they maybe headed that way.


I'd say if there was a bubble market phase, it would encompass most dog breeds. The only breeds in my area that seem to go for let's say a "cheap price" are bullies and bully mixes. But that's because there are SO many of them. And that's another thing too, the more options there are, the harder it is to corner a market. Not only is there competition from breeders, but from supposed "hobbyist" and such. The more there is of something, the less value it has. That applies in many markets. For instance, I used to sell V10 and V20 Vickers vane pumps. Before, you could get lets say $212.00 for a cartridge kit. But once the Chinese stepped in, it became much harder. The company I worked for was reselling the Chinese version for $150.00. How can you compete with that? Most people are looking for "instant gratification" in this world nowadays. They are not thinking in the long term, they are thinking of right now. BUT on a side note, it is also the responsibility of a seller IF they are truly a "good practice" seller to be completely transparent and to answer any and all questions. I would flat out let my customers know that this was not a USA product and that it was from overseas. This way, I didn't have to worry about post backlash on said product. There is a responsibility on the buyer AND the seller equally. It is the responsibility of the buyer to do research, and responsibility of the seller to make pertinent information is available. It's not one sided AT ALL.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Alexis,

Earlier you said dogs were going for about $1500 back in 2010. Now Max said $1200 isn't unheard of. Which is it guys? 

I know a breeder in your area, Max told me about them, who is charging the same for lesser dogs as what you guys are charging for a dog, Carma and the sire, who have both had a lot of work put into them. You have the right to charge what you want for your puppies. I'm not arguing that, it's the basis for the *price inceases* I'm questioning. So please don't make this about one breeder (you and Max). It's an across the board type of situation.

Max, we talk about how people come to this forum and are so far behind the curve, they really truly are. You get frustrated with them and I do sometimes. I think I'm fairly smart. Definately willing to learn which is why we are forum friends. I don't have *as many* of the problems some puppy buyers have. 

I think what needs clarification here is I don't agree with the wholehearted view you espouse that A) the puppy market is efficient, it's not, per some your own observations in this thread and forum. B) That putting the responsibility *100%* on puppy buyers shoulders is indicative of an efficient market. It's not. I didn't know, what I didn't know until I lucked upon a good IPO trainer and this site. 

It's *100%* part that I balk at. 

This is why I am kicking myself for getting involved in this, because I shouldn't have to put the caveats in the of course *some people* are lazy or don't care or don't want to be bothered with research. 

There also people who would and do given the chance and shades of grey in between. Right? *sigh*. . Why do these things always have to turn into false binary paradigms. 

Ugh.


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## Gwenhwyfair

For the record, I've asked not within the very first 30 seconds of conversation but after a few minutes of talking (back in 2009 and 2010) and along the way since then. I do ask politely though and never argue with them about it. The breeders quoted prices inline with what the going rates were and didn't seem to be upset about it.

I don't think IRL it's that big a deal when people ask sometime during the first conversation. 

Before I found this board it was the only way I could figure out what to even expect price-wise. 





GatorDog said:


> This is what I've experienced. And with the people who are seriously interested in any puppies of mine, they ask questions about price last.


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## WesS

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That is honorable, no question, to a certain extent. There comes a point where the prices aren't really reflective of true value.
> 
> I'm not a normal consumer either. I don't like inflated markets because they tend to go bust. So I've never fallen for any of the "bubble" markets be it Arabians in the '80s or houses in the early 2000s.
> 
> So it's not me I'm worried about but I like give the benefit of the doubt to people.
> 
> In edit are GSDs entering a "bubble market" phase. I will not say yes, for sure, but I do see some indicators they maybe headed that way.


When the 'bubble phase' hits, we will start seeing extreme pressure, to adopt not buy. We will see extreme pressure in saying: Buy a dog=kill a dog. Extreme pressure on breeders coming from other groups. We will see overloaded shelters and the rise of extremist groups in the other direction.


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## Gwenhwyfair

OMG you are going into hydraulics! I'm having a hard enough time with the dog part of this.  . 

I don't know about other breeds to be honest. I only care about GSDs  so haven't followed what's going on with Labs and Goldens. Since labs are very popular, have field lines and show lines too, I wonder what they are costing? I do know Old English bulldogs are crazy expensive and yet you could not pay me to have one. Boy oh boy I'm going to get I trouble with the OEB lovers now. 

So before I get anyone else mad at me...have a good day. :sun:



Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I'd say if there was a bubble market phase, it would encompass most dog breeds. The only breeds in my area that seem to go for let's say a "cheap price" are bullies and bully mixes. But that's because there are SO many of them. And that's another thing too, the more options there are, the harder it is to corner a market. Not only is there competition from breeders, but from supposed "hobbyist" and such. The more there is of something, the less value it has. That applies in many markets. For instance, I used to sell V10 and V20 Vickers vane pumps. Before, you could get lets say $212.00 for a cartridge kit. But once the Chinese stepped in, it became much harder. The company I worked for was reselling the Chinese version for $150.00. How can you compete with that? Most people are looking for "instant gratification" in this world nowadays. They are not thinking in the long term, they are thinking of right now. BUT on a side note, it is also the responsibility of a seller IF they are truly a "good practice" seller to be completely transparent and to answer any and all questions. I would flat out let my customers know that this was not a USA product and that it was from overseas. This way, I didn't have to worry about post backlash on said product. There is a responsibility on the buyer AND the seller equally. It is the responsibility of the buyer to do research, and responsibility of the seller to make pertinent information is available. It's not one sided AT ALL.


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## Gwenhwyfair

. 





WesS said:


> When the 'bubble phase' hits, we will start seeing extreme pressure, to adopt not buy. We will see extreme pressure in saying: Buy a dog=kill a dog. Extreme pressure on breeders coming from other groups. We will see overloaded shelters and the rise of extremist groups in the other direction.


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## GatorDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Alexis,
> 
> Earlier you said dogs were going for about $1500 back in 2010. Now Max said $1200 isn't unheard of. Which is it guys?
> 
> I know a breeder in your area, Max told me about them, who is charging the same for lesser dogs as what you guys are charging for a dog, Carma and the sire, who have both had a lot of work put into them. You have the right to charge what you want for your puppies. I'm not arguing that, it's the basis for the *price inceases* I'm questioning. So please don't make this about one breeder (you and Max). It's an across the board type of situation.
> 
> Max, we talk about how people come to this forum and are so far behind the curve, they really truly are. You get frustrated with them and I do sometimes. I think I'm fairly smart. Definately willing to learn which is why we are forum friends. I don't have *as many* of the problems some puppy buyers have.
> 
> I think what needs clarification here is I don't agree with the wholehearted view you espouse that A) the puppy market is efficient, it's not, per some your own observations in this thread and forum. B) That putting the responsibility *100%* on puppy buyers shoulders is indicative of an efficient market. It's not. I didn't know, what I didn't know until I lucked upon a good IPO trainer and this site.
> 
> It's *100%* part that I balk at.
> 
> This is why I am kicking myself for getting involved in this, because I shouldn't have to put the caveats in the of course *some people* are lazy or don't care or don't want to be bothered with research.
> 
> There also people who would and do given the chance and shades of grey in between. Right? *sigh*. . Why do these things always have to turn into false binary paradigms.
> 
> Ugh.


I do know of a breeder who charge $1200 for puppies with working line dogs in the pedigree. Nothing I'd want for myself or that I'd recommend. Doesn't mean they don't exist. 

I ALSO know of breeders who charge $1500 with dogs that I might consider if I felt the need to look elsewhere.


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## martemchik

This is not a bubble for so many reasons…most of all, it’s that people are paying what the dogs are worth and after they’re bought, the dog’s value generally decreases. Dogs aren’t being purchased with the thought that “next year it will be worth more and I’ll make a profit.” A market is also NOT inflated just because it has outpaced inflation. Tons of markets have outpaced inflation, a market that outpaces inflation is more of a sign of either increased demand, or a proper realignment of the market to real and sustainable prices.

It’s not 100% on the buyer…but the sellers do offer the information. The buyers just choose to ignore it, or choose not to learn more in order to be able to process the information that is available. If there isn’t an IPO1 behind the dog’s name, that’s information. If the hips aren’t OFA rated, that’s information. If a breeder doesn’t provide you with information, it’s still information, it means there is a lack of information and that you should walk away. People don’t though. People accept a breeder’s explanation instead of questioning it more or just walking away. People grasp onto false information, or don’t complete the research and just make a purpose. The idea that breeders don’t provide information, is completely ridiculous. Ask the question, if you don’t get an answer, or you get an excuse as to why something wasn’t done, it’s still information. It means the breeder is hiding something. If the buyer decides to accept a breeder’s story…or the ever popular line that we see on this forum, ”I did Schutzhund for 30 years, I can tell if a dog can do it or not without trialing” that’s ON THE BUYER. Trust that breeder? Up to you. But minimum standards won’t change if we accept that line of thinking. The Germans don’t.

Tell me what kind of information you guys believe breeders should provide? A line by line break out of why they can justify a price?

Base price: $500
Package 1: Sire and Dam passing hip rating…$300
Package 2: Sire and Dam IPO/working title equivalent…$400
Package 3: Sire and Dam HOT/BHOT, raised in home…$300
Package 4: Sire and Dam national dogs/proven producers…$300
Package 5: Show lines, show ratings, breed survey…$1000
Package 6: Sire/Dam Sieger or Siegren…$1000
Destination charge (like a car): $200

Feel free to start complaining that Package 3 seems overpriced by $100, or that package 2 is overpriced by $200.

What other products that you buy provide you with something like that? Yet now it’s expected for dog breeding for some random reason? Do you people know how many industries we pay more than 200% mark up in? Yet no one questions those. Furniture, clothing…Apple sold 74 billion in revenue, had profit of 18 billion and no one is complaining about the cost of an iPhone. Dogs though…please sell them to us as cheap as possible, thank you breeder for putting in thousands of hours of work, training, making the best possible breeding decision, studying genetics and pedigree, but we, the buyers, clearly know what your time and expertise is worth more than you do.


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. I got ya, WL dogs in the pedigree, some gaps included....

You guys (you and Max) know I have a lot of respect for you since you are walking the walk. Just don't be too hard on us goofy puppy buyers o.k.?

A lot of us have our hearts in the right place too...

Hey Max, nice smile. . . You are always so serious on the board here.

And...we'll disagree on some points, not all,  in this particular discussion my friend.





GatorDog said:


> I do know of a breeder who charge $1200 for puppies with working line dogs in the pedigree. Nothing I'd want for myself or that I'd recommend. Doesn't mean they don't exist.
> 
> I ALSO know of breeders who charge $1500 with dogs that I might consider if I felt the need to look elsewhere.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

Gwenhwyfair said:


> OMG you are going into hydraulics! I'm having a hard enough time with the dog part of this.  .
> 
> I don't know about other breeds to be honest. I only care about GSDs  so haven't followed what's going on with Labs and Goldens. Since labs are very popular, have field lines and show lines too, I wonder what they are costing? I do know Old English bulldogs are crazy expensive and yet you could not pay me to have one. Boy oh boy I'm going to get I trouble with the OEB lovers now.
> 
> So before I get anyone else mad at me...have a good day. :sun:


LOL sorry G, didn't mean to go all off in another dimension! I have other examples also, but that is just my most recent and most coherant example I could come up with on the fly. It's not the best comparision, but just to make a correlation.


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## WesS

Martemchik. The bubble exists. But it will pop for the rest of the guys at some point. It will not necessarily pop for the 'good breeders' (whatever that exactly means. But for simplicity sake).

i.e. Working lines, bread for knowledgeable people doing sport/real work. Their bubble wont pop. In fact, they may be better placed TBH. 
Show lines, following breed standards and better breeding practises will also survive.

But if the rest go out of business to an extent, it would still dictate more competition for the better guys, as more people enter that 'market' and we may still see some lower prices. There will be a lot of boycott's on breeders by general public. And some will flock to more 'responsible breeders'. I guess PETA, maybe does have its uses. This is all hypothetical. But hey, if the dog market is like other markets, it wouldn't be surprising.


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## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted by lhczth
> I guess I was never a normal consumer. I usually found what I wanted and then figured out a way to pay for it.





GatorDog said:


> This is what I've experienced. And with the people who are seriously interested in any puppies of mine, they ask questions about price last.


The pup I have now, I didn't know the price, but did know a pup from this particular breeding was worth having. I have seen both parents work and love the pedigree on both sides.
I don't think I even signed a contract . The breeder was willing to take payments as I didn't have all the cash together at the time the pup was ready to come home. 
Word of mouth works wonders in the dog world... vs. breeders that are posting their litters on all the fb sale pages, it would be really hard to deal with all the inquiries.


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## reptilejason

I remember my german shepherd Dutchess, I paid $175 for in 1999. My second girl Allie I bought for $450 in 2009. Both of these girls were bought from a backyard breeder. They were/are great pups and wonderful companions. When I purchased both dogs, I thought I was paying a lot of money for them. Now i'm looking for a puppy and have no problems paying $2000+ for a puppy. 

I'm ok paying that much for the puppy nowadays. I make far more money now than back then. But more importantly, I have big plans for the puppy, participating in Sch, SAR, and maybe other activities that we would both enjoy. The expertise of a breeder matching me up with the right puppy and knowing as much as possible about the dog, as well as proper breeding is worth the money to me. 

Appearantly, many people feel $2000 is an allowable price, since i'm having a difficult time finding puppies.


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