# Short term vs long term breeding programs



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have some thoughts on the above subject I would like to share with others and ask for input on. 
I have found that short term breeding programs are usually based on the two immediate dogs being bred. Often, the breeding is compensatory( breeding a strength to a weakness) in hopes of the perfect middle result. If lucky, one pup may reflect this mythical correction. 
With long term breeding I find people have a set standard of traits that they use as maintaining for 3-5 generations to solidify a core type that reflects their interpretation of the breed or standard. Usually, the more generations the more uniformity in these core traits.
Both approaches,imo, have benefits if done correctly, but I find that short term breeding is often based on faulty principles. If a dog is lacking pigment, or angulation, or prey drive, etc, often breeders will go to a dog extreme in opposite direction to correct the problem, instead of seeking a good solid dog in the moderate range of improvement. With the extreme correction you might get one pup, maybe two like you desire, with the moderate dog you lay the foundation for improving most of pups in this area.
What do folks think?


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

As you know blue + yellow doesn't always equal green when it comes to genetics. I like to think a good breeding program should be like chess. Always thinking several moves ahead. I think one other key component that's missing in a lot of breeders is the willingness to scrap a program and/or cull out a whole litter that doesn't make the cut. Too much money to be made or lost doing that.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

thegooseman90 said:


> As you know blue + yellow doesn't always equal green when it comes to genetics. I like to think a good breeding program should be like chess. Always thinking several moves ahead. I think one other key component that's missing in a lot of breeders is the willingness to scrap a program and/or cull out a whole litter that doesn't make the cut. Too much money to be made or lost doing that.


I agree with you, and I think vital components of a good breeding program are knowledge, honesty,( by that I mean to consumer and being honest about what you possess) and compensatory thinking, by that I mean maintaining priorities in the moderate area, accepting that in spite of that extremes will occur both good and bad, but not being caught up with then breeding to replicate the extremes.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> *being honest about what you possess*


I wish I knew how to bold the quoted part because that should be #1. i see it a lot on this forum honestly. Everything from my dog is x giant size or possesses x super qualities at only [insert very young age] Whether it's exaggeration or bold lying who's to say but I'm sure that attitude extends to a lot of gsd breeders out there - namely the ones who are in it for a check. 

I think ultimately the goal of any reputable and dedicated breeding program is a long term one. As mentione, the goal is to create your ideal of the standard and set it as uniformly as possible in your program. I'm not a breeder and don't aspire to become one but I love working dogs and have a keen interest in their history/genetics. This was a thread I was really hoping would take off to see the thoughts yourself and others who've been at this a while have.

** I did it for you. Admin Lisa


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If you subscribe to the belief that genetics tend to get watered down over time, unless there is an active approach to identify desirable dominate genetics and create bloodlines that are likely to produce the desirable traits your are hoping to produce, I don't think the compensatory approach will benefit the breed. Same goes for discovering undesirable recessive that contribute to health issues or other faulty working traits.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

thegooseman90 said:


> I wish I knew how to bold the quoted part because that should be #1. i see it a lot on this forum honestly. Everything from my dog is x giant size or possesses x super qualities at only [insert very young age] Whether it's exaggeration or bold lying who's to say but I'm sure that attitude extends to a lot of gsd breeders out there - namely the ones who are in it for a check.
> 
> I think ultimately the goal of any reputable and dedicated breeding program is a long term one. As mentione, the goal is to create your ideal of the standard and set it as uniformly as possible in your program. I'm not a breeder and don't aspire to become one but I love working dogs and have a keen interest in their history/genetics. This was a thread I was really hoping would take off to see the thoughts yourself and others who've been at this a while have.


I think there has to be some flexibility in the standard regarding temperament, especially for breeders with a long term approach. A big issue is that you have to know what you are producing. If a breeder sells all his pups and doesn't get any data on them, he will never know if he has been successful in a breeding. Also, there are different functions for GSDs and some traits will beter seve a dog in certain roles than others, so a breeder should strive to create bloodlines with different types of temperament as a goal. IMO, a single standard for temperament is too simplistic. For example, Fidelco is very successful at breeding GSDs for potential dogs for the blind. They need a certain type of temperament. Detection dogs might need other traits more enhanced. A patrol dog might need other traits to be successful.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I think there has to be both long term and short term goals. No dog is perfect, so I think you need the short term, to try and help improve the things you want to improve all the while moving closer to the "perfect" GSD you want. I think there has to be congruence in the dogs being bred, but the selection can be made to try hand help pick up a trait. All the while striving for a long term goal. I think moderation is the key. Not going for extremes out of any one litter, but rather a steady improvement towards ones "perfect" dog.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

this article came up on my FB newsfeed today.
Dog Behavior: Untangling Nature and Nurture - Dog Yearbook Blog


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Great article @car2ner, thanks so much for posting it. I particularly liked this part of her intro: 

_Once, while I was teaching a class on genetics to dog trainers, my students asked me, “What percent of dog personality is due to genetics, and what percent is due to environment?” Unsatisfied with my answers of “it’s complicated” and “that isn’t the right question,"..._

Cause it is... 



Aly


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I knew how to bold the quoted part because that should be #1. i see it a lot on this forum honestly. Everything from my dog is x giant size or possesses x super qualities at only [insert very young age] Whether it's exaggeration or bold lying who's to say but I'm sure that attitude extends to a lot of gsd breeders out there - namely the ones who are in it for a check.
> ...


 I agree with this. I didn't mean for it to sound like the whole program should be scrapped if a breeding produces dogs that aren't all the same type. The great thing about being a breeder is you have customers from all walks of life asking for dogs of all different temperaments. From a pet, to sport, to ppd.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Not sure what happened there. I tried to quote chip not myself. And thanks Admin Lisa for bolding that for me


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I look at the total breeding(breeder) and would take a pup from a first time breeder if I knew they were being mentored by someone to help make breeding decisions. I would not buy or support a breeder that is breeding for coat, color or pet type traits.
I want to support first time/new breeders, but only if they are in it to keep the breed a versatile working dog with solid temperament and health. Longevity in the pedigree of the dogs they are pairing, etc all play into the total package. Even then, you may not get what you expect and disappointment is going to happen. But weigh the odds in your favor and do the homework. 
If a breeder isn't keeping back a pup or two from a breeding, what is that saying? I know that they cant keep one from each breeding, but they should have a goal when pairing.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Compensatory breeding is perfectly fine to do and it is best to pick a partner that has the ideal/moderate trait rather than the extreme. That will result in more uniformity in the offspring. Whether you are a short term breeder or a longterm breeder I think depends on your goals. For instance, if you are breeding for profit ( and there is nothing wrong with that) and you have a specific clientele such as law enforcement or military, your focus is probably on producing good working dogs in the immediate generation and not looking 2-3 generations down the line. If your goal as breeder is to produce a superb specimen, one that will affect the direction of the breed and be included in the pantheon of GSD greats, well your approach to breeding may require more forethought and foresight.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In any breeding program, a vital ingredient is the knowledge of the recessives, and the maintenance of dominant or prevailing characteristics in a top spot of priority. There are negative and positive recessives and we must be careful to not breed FOR any of them. Elsewise, they become dominant in your line, but always at a price. The bad recessives such as weak ears, missing testicles, unsure temperament should always Be bred away from and never used at stud.....the so called good recessives like big heads, large bone, very hard temperament, should be accepted and enjoyed when produced, but should not be the focus of a breeding program. Oftentimes breeders get recessives to become dominant in their breeding programs, which makes absolutely no sense. The reason they are recessives clearly dictates they should never be allowed to become dominant. Most importantly, I think breeders should be knowledgeable of not only what is dominant/ recessive in the breed, but also understanding how easy it is to strengthen recessives in the breed, and how hard it is to eliminate. Some recessives like weak ears can be corrected in 2-4 generations, but other recessives like weak temperament is very very difficult to breed away from, especially if they want to maintain the “type” they have. 
We must always,imo, try to maintain dominant and recessive traits in the place the standard calls for, understanding that them popping up does NOT signify a failed breeding or program, but them becoming dominant in a breeding or breeding program is leading away from breed type.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Compensatory breeding is perfectly fine to do and it is best to pick a partner that has the ideal/moderate trait rather than the extreme. That will result in more uniformity in the offspring. Whether you are a short term breeder or a longterm breeder I think depends on your goals. For instance, if you are breeding for profit ( and there is nothing wrong with that) and you have a specific clientele such as law enforcement or military, your focus is probably on producing good working dogs in the immediate generation and not looking 2-3 generations down the line. If your goal as breeder is to produce a superb specimen, one that will affect the direction of the breed and be included in the pantheon of GSD greats, well your approach to breeding may require more forethought and foresight.


 gsdguy said "if you are breeding for profit ( and there is nothing wrong with that) "

breeding for profit has been the downfall of this very popular , very easy to sell breed .
that statement goes back to the very beginning - the 1900 turn of the century when compromises in temperament were made , and the pricked ear bred for at all costs to satisfy the moneyed dandies who were vain and wanted an ego dog.

the same statement stands for right now when people want the VA's progeny ,
the GV's lines -- the black and red - the belonging to the group when the Martin
brothers dominanted by breeding and JUDGING (official capacity)

there is something wrong with that because it effects the decisions . The breeding is MARKET driven .
This may mean resorting to a popular stud . A colour , a coat type , the taste of the day "the black sable " the oversize "olde fashioned".

You could be a byb - that is profit driven . Volume over quality. 
Short cuts - minimal investment in stock, care of stock , failure to "wash" or elminate dogs from breeding considerations for a variety of reasons.

gsdguy said " law enforcement or military, your focus is probably on producing good working dogs in the immediate generation and not looking 2-3 generations down the line. "

when you aspire to that level -- good versatile working dogs - or contenders for competitive sport you need to have a good foundation and you will be relying on someone else's long term efforts and knowledge in layering or uniting several generations . 

Once you have found this , not common dog , you will want to look 2 to 3 generations down the line.
Not for a specific animal -- but sussing out the breeders, the lines, that are successful for those goals. 

Breeding for that level is not profit motivated.
More people would be doing it if it were .
The profit comes to the ancillary crew that add value -- training - so that would be your trainers, spotters, brokers , certifiers etc.

There were some good breeders of working dogs . They no longer breed working dogs because they themselves were working like dogs with little recognition, and in the end no reward .

When you go through the breeding , the evealutaion, the sorting out , the keeping of best candidates , feeding , taking them off home base , training , x raying , necessary wash-outs (may be an x ray result) and then selling them at one year to two years which is the age a department wants them to bring in to training and certification - you have invested a good chunk of your life.

They do not want puppies . 

Why -- would you then impose all these difficulties on yourself ? 
This one group - basically said oh cuss cuss - when a showline black and red , with that and erect ears being the criteria to meet , and pups going for almost the price of a green youth dog
going in for training . The pup heading for a home as soon after 8 weeks as possible.
Different expectations . 
Secure sale .
With this flow and no time tie ups you can keep the litters coming .

want to see some long term breeders ?

want to see some pedigrees with foresight and forethought?


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

A breeder who takes the view that his/her only responsibility is to the breed--not to show, sport or any other narrow interest--can only take a long range view. These are the individuals who are able to discipline themselves to look beyond podium recognition in any endeavor and turn a hard, critical eye inward to focus on the results of each breeding, choose wisely and take that program forward. These are the breeders who produce balanced dogs capable of work, family living and just about anything you ask of them. These are the people who have a true passion for the breed and demonstrate it through their actions--remaining true to the breed, enjoying accolades when they come, but never compromising on the integrity of their breeding program. The structural and temperamental disabilities in the show lines, the excessive prey drive, hyperactivity and weak nerves in the sport lines are usually the result of compromise by a breeder--for money, ego or any other reason. Any breeder will occasionally produce an individual with health or temperament issues--that is purely a matter of probability. But the vast number of dogs suffering with those issues speaks to a problem of denial among so-called breeders. Lee, Carmen and Cliff are truly treasures of pedigree information that I am afraid will soon be lost--so few are willing to put in the time and effort required to acquire that skill and knowledge. Even fewer are willing or have the personal integrity required to make the tough decisions necessary to maintain the breed as it was intended. I have hope when I see young individuals such as Jeremy--they are to be supported and encouraged in their efforts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thank you for that Pam .

I do have a line with a very clear set goal , which was present from the start and remains without deviation of goals to this day and , with some hope, some years to come.

Long term . Only term .

Some years of frustration because there was a line -- which I will identify as "Uwe Kirschental" which had so much to offer --- but the consistency of good hips became a challenge.
I had some awesome talented , ideal in every which way , dogs born to close-up to this line -- and stumbled with hips that prevented them from in-take for the agencies , that I was providing for . That was law enforcement and guide dogs.

So do you throw the baby out with the bath water ?

No .

you sit and wait it out and then you exploit the dogs that have your lines that you want from the pedigrees where they have been incorporated and the problems resolved.

Sometimes this may mean generations . Sometimes it is closer but to a partner who diminishes those things . Even so each time being smart about it and conservative -- no sudden break out into wild-card territory.

I can also name and display strategy illustrating this . 

This is where knowledge beyond a name and a title comes in.

The long term breeders that I know and respect that do practice developing a line which they take into the future do include

Lisa - zu treuen handen 
Lee - Wolfstraum
Anne - Adler Stein
Sue Coppola and Mary Davis -- v d Polizei had a very successful programme https://vonderpolizei.weebly.com/about-us.html . Lee can attest to this Csabre von Wolfstraum The v d Polizei dogs pedigree could be criss crossed for generations.

Mike Diehl -- Enckhausen/Diehlomov 

others -- I am sure -- will think on it .

some are just starting out -- forum member who is on his way with a good start and the right philosophy


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

If we are going to talk specific breeders with longterm breeding progams i think

Stefan Schaub/Staatsmacht Kennels must be mentioned.

I don't know him personally, but I wish I did. This is an example of a breeder who has taken a foundation line and has truly managed to develop it multiple generations onward. His breeding program is without a doubt influencing the direction of the GSD within the working lines on a global scale.


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