# Can you sell puppies for different prices in same litter? (w/wo papers?)



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I know that it is against AKC rules to charge different prices for a dog with vs without papers. At least I think it is. 

Does anyone have a link? I'm talking about pups for sale "$200. or $400 if you want them registered"


----------



## SoCal Rebell (Jun 3, 2009)

$39 for the paperwork another $32 if you want 4 gens. of Pedigree.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think it is against the rules. But I could be wrong. I have a book, that probably would have it in it, but it is not with me right now. 

I have people asking all the time, they just want a pet, they aren't worried about papers, could they get the dog cheaper without. But, why? It costs just as much to breed, whelp, and raise them. If you register the litter it is a fixed amount, plus a couple of buck per puppy. Why give $200 off for something that costs you $2? 

The only answer is if you are selling them without declaring them if you have no papers, and you do not fill out a bill of sale, contract, and warranty, and the people pay cash, well then, you could fail to pay income tax on that one. And enough of those, and it may be worth it to sell them under the table so to speak. 

But think about that for a moment. If you breeder is willing to cheat on his taxes, declare less than he actually made for the year, wouldn't they be willing to cheat on other things as well? 

So if a breeder offered pups from the same litter at one price with papers and at another without papers, then most likely the breeder is a cheater. Why help someone cheat? A person who sells stuff under the table, and declares a very small income, is not only not paying sales and income taxes on the puppies, but they are probably fraudulently eligible for other government programs. Or, they could be keeping themselves below the radar by not declaring the total number of dogs sold, which could place them in another category of regulations. If you are producing 90 puppies per year, roughly 9-12 litters, which is a lot, here in Ohio, you would be under the Department of Agriculture regulations. If you only have a paper trail for 50 of those puppies, you could by pass the DOA. 

If there is something wrong with the pup so it should not be bred, sell it on a Limited Registration. But buying from a breeder that sells with papers and without papers at different prices, is enabling people to steal from the government. And I may not like the government all that much, but I would rather trust my breeder, and if the breeder is lying and cheating in one area, they are lying and cheating in others.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I think a breeder can sell puppies for whatever they want, with or without papers. It's what the buyer will pay more then what the breeder wants to sell them for.

Info may be in one of these links ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Nope. It is against AKC policies to sell registration papers, which is what "$XXX without papers, $YYY with papers" amounts to. 

From the AKC Discipline Guidelines (Effective 12-11-13) 

*VI. Registration Violations (All Privileges) *
a. Submission of a false application to register or transfer (not signature forgeries), which affect the Stud Book * 3 yr/$500 5 yr/$1000 Life/$5000 
b. Selling or buying AKC registration papers * 5 yr/$500 10 yr/$1000 Life/$5000 
c. Refusing to produce dogs or records * 6 mon/$500 5yr‡/$1000 Life‡/$3000 

http://images.akc.org/pdf/RDEOB1.pdf


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Unethical. I'm also stuck on 200 vs 400. That's some great blood there I tell ya.

My last puppy, her papers came attached to her shipping crate. Filled out and it was my option to file them at 8 weeks.

Otto's breeder wanted a copy of his neuter certificate then she filed them for me.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I don't see this as selling papers. I think selling papers is just that, selling the papers without a dog being involved in the transaction.

I know of horses who are registered with papers that were issued to a horse who is now dead, some of which are stallions used for breeding. Obviously, the bloodline would not necessarily be the same. Those papers were bought separately from the horses. I don't see why it wouldn't happen with dogs, too.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

that's what I was thinking LeoRose.

They have obviously registered the litter. Same puppy but if you don't want the registration papers I'll give her to you for $200. If you want the AKC papers, it will be $400.


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Pawsed, charging one price ($200) for a puppy without papers, and charging a higher price ($400) for the same puppy with papers is considered "selling the papers". The seller is charging an additional $200 for the papers, which is against AKC policy. It's not against policy to sell a "pet" puppy with Limited Registration for less than a "show" puppy on Full Registration, as long as the proper papers are included in price. 

At one time, selling registration applications (known then as "blue slips", because of their color) was a fairly common puppymill practice. Breeders would send in litter registrations for more puppies than there actually were (or sometimes registered nonexistent litters), and either sold the extras (called "blue money") or else used them to "register" a dog they acquired without papers. Fraud like this is why the AKC developed their Frequently Used Sires program, in which a dog that sires more than three liters a year, or more than seven litters in his lifetime MUST be DNA profiled. All imported dogs must be DNA profiled, also. 

And if you know about the irregularity with the horses' papers, and haven't reported it to the appropriate registry, then you are technically an accessory to the fact, and therefor part of the problem.


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I can see a pick of the litter puppy going for a little bit more $, but like Selzer said; "judge the litter owner," if they cheat, then the red flag waved in your face. 

OT: An old guy on a motorcycle deal, the guy was 80+ wanted to forge a signature on a pink slip, I said, your a good guy, but a horrible business man, you should have paid the fees and the transfer 12 years ago, bye bye ! 

Yeah, I wanted that bike..

SGCSG


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I just wanted the actual rule about selling papers. 
Was telling someone that it was against AKC rules and they said they had never heard of that. "everyone does it" kind of thing


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

LeoRose, thanks for the clarification on those rules. 

It's easy to be judgemental when you don't understand the situation. Those horses are working animals, not pets or companions, who have no value whatsoever to their owners without papers. Why else would they be willing to purchase papers separately? Most are non-breeding animals that wouldn't be able to do what their owners want without the papers. Without papers these horses are Alpo, pure and simple. 

Sorry, but I'm not willing to sacrifice perfectly healthy wonderful animals that way. So, yes, I guess I am part of the problem.


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Pawsed said:


> LeoRose, thanks for the clarification on those rules.
> 
> It's easy to be judgemental when you don't understand the situation. Those horses are working animals, not pets or companions, who have no value whatsoever to their owners without papers. Why else would they be willing to purchase papers separately? Most are non-breeding animals that wouldn't be able to do what their owners want without the papers. Without papers these horses are Alpo, pure and simple.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not willing to sacrifice perfectly healthy wonderful animals that way. So, yes, I guess I am part of the problem.


In other words, the horses are worthless without papers. Of course, since the papers are forged, they are worthless, as well. If they are "non-breeding, working animals", I'm not sure why they would be "worthless" without papers, unless it is to defraud the public. It would be nice if all registries would require DNA testing, like the Arabian registry does.


----------

