# Certain Titles Necessary to Breed?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I was wondering. 

Say Ozzy was AKC registered, I get him OFA'd, CERF, thyroid checked, etc. and everything clears, and I get him titled in agility, and he gets maybe a CGC and a BH, maybe some OB titles. Does that make him breed worthy? (This is entirely hypothetical, as I wouldn't ever breed him). He does NOT conform to the standard. 
*Is a conformation title of some sort necessary prior to breeding a dog?*

I'm just curious, because I know a lot of people say that you only need a title of 'some sort.' Well, what if people start going off of that and only go for agility/SchH/flyball/OB/etc.? Eventually dog breeds start not looking like what they're supposed to, right? (Which was why the standard for the breeds was created in the first place, obviously). 

I'm not saying that I think every dog should have a conformation title before being bred, I'm just wondering what your guys' opinion on this is.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

I think it's different for toy breeds, being that most were never bred to do a job. To be honest I'm not sure how they determine "worthy of being bred" for toy breeds...CH titles?...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:rofl: Not laughing at you just the thought of a Pom with a BH


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Greydusk said:


> I think it's different for toy breeds, being that most were never bred to do a job. To be honest I'm not sure how they determine "worthy of being bred" for toy breeds...CH titles?...


Certain small breeds were bred to do certain things, such as Westies and Earth dog events, and corgis (a medium breed rather than small breed) and herding.

Edit -- just saw you specified with toy breeds, not small dogs in general. But you could still title a small dog in agility or other sports to show that they're more than just a pet and that you're going out and doing something with them to prove that they're worthy of breeding. But say you have an Italian Greyhound. Would agility be enough to prove that you can pass on that Italian Greyhound's genes? Or just that dog's genes? 

Sorry if I'm not really making sense. But I guess what my point is, what if Ozzy, my out of standard Pom proves to be 'breed worthy.' He doesn't conform to the standard of a Pomeranian. Does the titles he (hypothetically) achieved make him breed worthy as a Pomeranian, or should dogs have to receive a conformation title before being bred?


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> Certain small breeds were bred to do certain things, such as Westies and Earth dog events, and corgis (a medium breed rather than small breed) and herding.



But westies are part of the terrier group, and corgi's are herding...I could be wrong but toy breeds were bred to companion dogs (I think there are still dogs in that group who were originally bred to do some kind of task).


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Sorry I missed your question. Here is a link to what many titles mean Dog Titles & Abbreviations

I think a dog should have some form of conformation title prior to breeding, some breeders I would be comfortable with them being able to honestly assess their dog and whether or not it conforms to standard.

For toy dogs I think only show titles are "required" I am not sure how they test temperament to their breeds standard.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

I think he would have to have show titles to be able to be breed worthy, and confrom to the pom standard. 

A deaf aussie could get an agility title, but shouldn't be bred.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay, instead of using a toy breed for my scenario, let's put a GSD for it. 

Say I have a shepherd. I got it from a BYB that had full AKC registered parents, that was it. I want to breed my dog, but I want to be smarter about it, so I go out and get all of the necessary health tests done on him and they all clear. I get him titled in the same venues as stated above (agility, OB, BH title). Does that make him breed worthy? Say he's a 120 lb. male who's cow-hocked and looks like a typical BYB dog that just happened to pass the health clearances. 

Would this GSD be deemed breed-worthy because he is AKC registered, has titles and health clearances, or no?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> But I guess what my point is, what if Ozzy, my out of standard Pom proves to be 'breed worthy.' He doesn't conform to the standard of a Pomeranian. Does the titles he (hypothetically) achieved make him breed worthy as a Pomeranian, or should dogs have to receive a conformation title before being bred?


Some working line dogs do not perfectly fit the standard but have excellent temperament and breeders with VAST knowledge of the breed could responsibly breed that dog without getting way out there conformation. That dog will have other titles up the wazoo though to prove it has something to bring to the breed.

I really do not know how that situation would apply to a toy breed.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> Okay, instead of using a toy breed for my scenario, let's put a GSD for it.
> 
> Say I have a shepherd. I got it from a BYB that had full AKC registered parents, that was it. I want to breed my dog, but I want to be smarter about it, so I go out and get all of the necessary health tests done on him and they all clear. I get him titled in the same venues as stated above (agility, OB, BH title). Does that make him breed worthy? Say he's a 120 lb. male who's cow-hocked and looks like a typical BYB dog that just happened to pass the health clearances.
> 
> Would this GSD be deemed breed-worthy because he is AKC registered, has titles and health clearances, or no?


No. Assuming the dog could earn those titles it is too far from the standard. For the dogs conformation to be that off the pedigree would also suck. It would bring nothing to the breed.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> Okay, instead of using a toy breed for my scenario, let's put a GSD for it.
> 
> Say I have a shepherd. I got it from a BYB that had full AKC registered parents, that was it. I want to breed my dog, but I want to be smarter about it, so I go out and get all of the necessary health tests done on him and they all clear. I get him titled in the same venues as stated above (agility, OB, BH title). Does that make him breed worthy? Say he's a 120 lb. male who's cow-hocked and looks like a typical BYB dog that just happened to pass the health clearances.
> 
> Would this GSD be deemed breed-worthy because he is AKC registered, has titles and health clearances, or no?


I wouldn't say it would be breed-worthy, you don't know the recessive genes he may be carrying. Maybe his dam was crazy aggressive and had DM...You just don't know what his genes could be hiding.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> *Some working line dogs do not perfectly fit the standard* but have excellent temperament and breeders with VAST knowledge of the breed could responsibly breed that dog without getting way out there conformation. That dog will have other titles up the wazoo though to prove it has something to bring to the breed.
> 
> I really do not know how that situation would apply to a toy breed.


Critiquing myself. I know no dog conforms perfectly to the standard I meant some WLs have slightly out of standard conformation


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, if your dog is AKC, then you do not need any title or health certificates to breed it. 

If it is not AKC, you do not need any title or health certificates to breed it. 

However, if you want to breed dogs responsibly, then you would want the dog to conform to the standard, as close as possible, that includes temperament -- various titles depending on the breed can be an indication of this; and conformation. The Germans have a breed survey, and looking at my Koer report on Odessa, it is pretty extensive.

I do not know if an actual Championship is necessary on a dog, but it makes sense to have the dog evaluated by someone who is not connected to your operation. Someone who can assess the dog and discuss strengths and weaknessess. There are no perfect dogs. But if you just think your dog is awesome, you do not have the tools to look for the best complement to your dog. An unbiased opinion can help you choose the best mate.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Say Ozzy was AKC registered, I get him OFA'd, CERF, thyroid checked, etc. and everything clears, and I get him titled in agility, and he gets maybe a CGC and a BH, maybe some OB titles. Does that make him breed worthy? (This is entirely hypothetical, as I wouldn't ever breed him). He does NOT conform to the standard.


IMHO the rest of the titles are irrelevant for breeding *if the dog does not conform to the breed standard in the first place*. Regardless of breed and titles.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Chris, how do you determine if a dog conforms to the standard and what is "good enough" to be deemed "breeding worthy"? An AKC Ch.? A VA or V1 show rating? Or as long as the dog does not possess a physical trait that is a DQ or heavily faulted in the show ring? Do you believe there is an objective way to determine how well a dog conforms to the standard, and to measure that to the point of declaring breeding worth? Or do you believe that the show venues we have available currently already do the job? Very interested to hear your thoughts on this!

To the OP - so a Pomeranian may earn an agility title or a BH title. What do you want to breed? Agility dogs, dogs capable of earning a BH, Schutzhund dogs, or Poms? A good agility dog may or may not be a good Pomeranian in the eyes of their fanciers.

I would be more concerned about what that title and the _process _of achieving that title says about your dog and the traits he possesses that you deem "of breeding worth", rather than the _existence _of the titles themselves. So you got a BH on your dog. But what does it say, besides the fact that your dog was able to do the routine and pass?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Rei said:


> But what does it say, besides the fact that your dog was able to do the routine and pass?


Getting a BH on a Pom, I'd say he has a stable temperament. (Kind of). I think that's probably the wrong wording, but obviously a yappy little ankle biter isn't going to get a BH. But a yappy little ankle biter's also not going to get many other titles, either. 
It shows that they have the willingness to work with the handler, which is a trait that the Pomeranian should have. 

Seeing as how Poms are descended from sled dogs, such as malamutes and huskies, getting agility titles show that they have endurance and athleticism that their ancestors have. (Possibly?)


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm completely clueless when it comes to toy breeds! Is there a standard for temperament? You use phrases such as "kind of" and "possibly", so would you personally believe that to be true, or rather justifications for using those titles as a test of breeding worth? 

May I ask what compels you to say that agility titles prove the endurance of a sled dog? (I don't know anything about agility or sled dogs, either LOL!) Would you, then, be satisfied with a husky who only has earned agility titles and feel that that husky is just what a good sled dog should be? Would you feel comfortable using that dog as a sled dog?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Rei said:


> I'm completely clueless when it comes to toy breeds! Is there a standard for temperament? You use phrases such as "kind of" and "possibly", so would you personally believe that to be true, or rather justifications for using those titles as a test of breeding worth?
> 
> May I ask what compels you to say that agility titles prove the endurance of a sled dog? (I don't know anything about agility or sled dogs, either LOL!) Would you, then, be satisfied with a husky who only has earned agility titles and feel that that husky is just what a good sled dog should be? Would you feel comfortable using that dog as a sled dog?


For a sled dog, I'd rather see weight pull titles or something of the sort, but there's not much of that around here, so if I wanted a husky for sledding, I might want to see agility? I'm not sure, I've never looked for a husky to sled with. Haha. (I guess you could look for huskies that actually do sledding). 

I'm just guessing because I'm not sure if that would justify it either.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

This is a difficult hypothetical situation, IMHO. It really would depend on the breed and the individual dog being evaluated.

Do I think that an AKC Champion title is required before breeding... No. I personally don't. I do think knowing your breeds' standard is important. I do think evaluating the individual dog against the standard is imparitive. 

If the individual dog you are considering for breeding does not have anything to bring to the breed (through bad temperment, health, conformation) then that dog should not be bred. However, if the dog has something that can benefit the breed (proven temperment, health clearances, no disfiguring/disabling/major conformation faults) then a pairing with the right mate may give you that one in a million near perfect dog.

I am a performance person. I like my puppies to come from performance parents. Whether it be SchH, AKC Obedience, Tracking, Herding, Agility, etc ... I like seeing the dog has brains. As for most of the venues, a dog cannot compete in the higher classes without good conformation. 

If I was a showline person, I would not buy from any pairing that did not have at least one champion parent and several in the recent pedigree (and the puppy looking like a show prospect from a young age). I wouldn't worry about titles at the end because that isn't what I am looking for as a showline/conformation exhibitor.

Now, personally, when you get into the toy breeds, again, it would all be in what the person is looking for. There are toy breeders out there that focus on conformation. There are toy breeders out there that focus on abilities (depends on the toy of course... not many Agility Peke's out there! but plenty of Papilions). 

So overall, it is hard to answer this with a blanket statement of "Yes a Conformation Title is Necessary" ... or "No, a Conformation Title is Not Necessary" or "Yes a Performance Title is Necessary" or "No a Performance Title is not Necessary"... or any combinatin of the above. lol 

In the end, IMHO, each breed was originally designed for a purpose. Many of these purposes are now obsolete (Turnspit dogs anyone?). When the job became obsolete, the breeds either became extinct or focus was moved from "what can you do" to "how good can you look". We each like certain breeds for certain reasons and each dog considered for breeding purposes should be evaluated objectively for what the individual dog can bring to the breeds current use.

I hope that made sense... Lack of sleep and an addled brain and thought provoking questions are not generally the best combination..


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for answering Konotashi  I think this is a great topic for discussion.



Konotashi said:


> I was wondering.
> 
> *Is a conformation title of some sort necessary prior to breeding a dog?*


Forgot to answer the question!

My personal opinion would be - no. 

Then again, if you asked 
*Is a working title of some sort necessary prior to breeding a dog?*

My answer would still be "no". 

If you asked 
*Is a title of some sort necessary prior to breeding a dog?*

I'd say "no". 

Now, would I PREFER to see titles on a dog prior to that dog being bred? Certainly, yes! If two breeders stood together and all else equal, one had titled breeding stock and the other didn't, of course I'd probably be more inclined to support the breeder who took the time to title his/her dogs. But there will never be a situation where all else was equal.

As someone new to the breed, I depend a great deal on the breeder and the advice of others when it comes to selecting a litter and the right pup, as I am sure others do as well (judging from the threads made in this forum). I think many of us have an inclination to look for "short cuts" (as one member said...was it GSD07?) and a type of objective "measuring tool"/"check list" that we can glance at and say "Requirements? Fulfilled! Reputable breeder? Check!" 

Schutzhund may have been developed for the German Shepherd, but at this point and time it is often a stylized sport where "success" in many's opinion is more easily achieved with a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd. And the Belgian Malinois and the Dutch Shepherd are not good representatives of the German Shepherd Dog, but, obviously, separate (and excellent) breeds by their own right. If Schutzhund is what determines a dog's breeding worth, why do we have SchH3 dogs that cower if the decoy presents himself as a threat, SchH3 dogs that do not feel confidant or comfortable until they are biting onto the sleeve, SchH3 dogs that are all prey and latch on to the sleeve with no desire to fight...?

Yes, Schutzhund and other titles tell the breeder about the dog, about that dog's qualities and elements of temperament and drives. But how often do you see the statement "Okay, that dog's titled, but how? What do we know about the dog now?" versus "That's a BYB there, the dogs are not titled". If you have an untitled dog on one hand and a SchH3 dog on the other, what can you say about the SchH3 dog from the existence of that title, in comparison to the untitled dog? Is the SchH title proof enough that the breeder has used that knowledge of the dog and applied that to decisions regarding breeding?

I am not putting down Schutzhund titled dogs - I think it still can be, and is, used as an excellent way of testing for the traits a German Shepherd should possess - just read the discussions in the breeding forums! Anne, Chris, Cliff, Lisa, Sue, etc. have shared great information in the past on Schutzhund as a test and a tool, rather than a simple competitive sport. But how are we to know how and why a breeder/handler and dog achieved the title through the letters "SCHH" after the name of a dog?

Now, if I were looking for a good Schutzhund dog, I would probably be much more concerned with a Schutzhund title. If I were looking for a good agility dog, perhaps I'd like to see advanced agility titles, maybe even state that one parent must have a MACH. 

But what if I "just" want a good German Shepherd Dog? A good Schutzhund dog is not necessarily a good German Shepherd Dog. A dog with a SchH3 is more likely to be a good Schutzhund dog first. A good agility dog is not necessarily a good German Shepherd Dog. A MACH is more likely going to be a good agility dog first. A good German Shepherd Dog should be able to do both Schutzhund and agility and conform to standard and be a good family companion and so much more, but then, why do we look at titles before we look at the dog?


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## KayElle (Mar 1, 2010)

Gee, I don't know the answer, but what a GREAT discussion!! This thread nails down the thoughts I have had about what a GSD should/shouldn't be!! So glad my DH's snoring woke me up so I could follow this at 4am!! I'm looking forward to hearing what Cliff, Chris, etc., have to say about this!!


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Rei said:


> .... but then, why do we look at titles before we look at the dog?


Hence, why I said:


Achielles UD said:


> ...each dog considered for breeding purposes should be evaluated objectively for what the individual dog can bring to the breed..


Another reason why I would buy from a breeder that does something with their dogs (and have a title or two to prove it - not just say they do), espeically as a person new to purchasing a dog or the breed, that person that does something with their dog most likely has more knowledge I can draw upon than a BYB does.

I think we get caught up with sementics and opinions too much. Everyone can interpret so much their own way. Puppy Mill, BYB, Reputable Breeder, "straight back", "steep croup" ... it is all really so subjective! If only all of these were as straight forward as: "_Teeth _--42 in number--20 upper and 22 lower", "The pasterns are strong and springy and angulated at approximately a 25-degree angle from the vertical."... Quantify things and I think there would be much less confusion.

But people are going to breed what they believe makes a good dog no matter what. Like will attract Like and those that want a certain something in a dog will eventually find a person who has puppies to match what they are looking for in quality, temperment and price!


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Achielles UD said:


> Hence, why I said:
> 
> Another reason why I would buy from a breeder that does something with their dogs (and have a title or two to prove it - not just say they do), espeically as a person new to purchasing a dog or the breed, that person that does something with their dog most likely has more knowledge I can draw upon than a BYB does.
> 
> ...


I was typing up my response before you posted yours - I did not see yours prior to submitting mine. I am actually in full agreement with you and want to say, excellent post.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You know the problem folks, ....people have made this too complicated. The German Shepherd is an utility dog made up of different herding dogs, to do many services for man. If the focus of breeders is to ensure that the dog stays a versatile utility dog first, then all this specialization becomes secondary. If the average ASL is a good utility dog with protective instincts...fine!, if the average WGSL is a good utility dog with protective instincts...fine, if the Czech dog or DDR dog or West workingline dog is a good utility dog with protective instincts....fine. If breeders maintained the integrity of the dog's character so it could be a fine utility dog, then we wouldn't have these subdivisions because people would have to cross over to different types to maintain the quality utility aspects. This is not complicated folks; on what should be bred, the part that is twisted is what people are breeding for!!!WORD!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Interesting discussion. As other's have said, I think it really varies drastically amongst different breeds. What would be considered acceptable for the breed would depend on that breed's purpose and what traits, which relate directly to that purpose, are correct for the breed. For sporting breeds, I'd want to see actual hunting dogs or dogs that compete in hunt tests or field trials. For terriers, earth dog tests. And so on.

Most toy breeds started out as companions and have always been companions. That is their purpose. So how does one test for a dogs ability to be a good companion in an objective way? Just being a good pet around the house isn't sufficient for a companion breed any more than it is for any other breed. The dog still should be evaluated objectively.

I would think a good place to start would be with obedience titles and a temperament test. 

Temperament is vitally important for any dog, regardless of vocation or breed, and a dog who couldn't pass a temperament test should never be bred. Period. Something like the ATTS would be a good one. One thing I like about this test is that under the rules, breed and thus breed characteristics are taken into consideration for the evaluation. I think in many ways the ATTS temperament test is a better test of temperament than the traffic portion of the BH. Though both test somewhat different things, so having both would be a big bonus.

And any dog, companion or working, regardless of breed and breed characteristics and purpose, ought to be able to be trained enough to pass an obedience trial. So a BH or CD, CDX even better.

And yes the dog also needs to be fully health tested for whatever is appropriate for that breed, and also needs to conform to the breed standard. Though I don't think a conformation title is necessary, nor the only (or even best) way to ensure the dog meets it's standard from a structural standpoint.


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