# Hydrocephalus. Opinons?



## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

My wife and I deceided to adopt a special needs puppy. We went to adopt his sister, but we couldn't leave the boy behind knowing no-one would adopt him. The lady we got the puppies from gave him to us for free, knowing he has problems.

We went to two separate vets. The first vet didn't seem to know what he was talking about, admitted that he didn't know what was wrong with Haans, and suggested euthanasia.

The second vet was much more professional. All 3 vets on staff came in to check on Haans and offer suggestions, as well as the Business Manager and retired owner (who was a vet for 30+ years). They all seemed to believe he has hydrocephalus. They recommended that either we take him to a neurologist and seek treatment or put him down.

I'm hoping someone else who had a puppy with hydrocephalus could chime in on whether it would be a good idea to seek treatment, as both my wife and I really don't want to have to put him down. I did some reading on this forum about similar stories, but none seemed to mention how the quality of life for the dog was after treatment. 
The vet told us that there are a few treatment options, the only permanent on being a shunt. But without taking a CAT scan and/or MRI to see whats really going on inside of his head, there is no way to know if treatment is worth pursuing. The estimated diagnosis and consultation fee would be anywhere from $1000-$2000 alone, and surgery to put in a shunt could run as high as $5000+.

I feel Haans is not currently suffering. He likes to play, he eats and drinks well, and goes to the bathroom. He gets super excited when you call him and will eventually find you if you keep calling for him (tail wagging and all). Friday he weighed 3.3 pounds and today he weighs 4 pounds (3 day span) so he is definitely growing.

His symptoms are:
-Circling (counter-clockwise)
-Possible blindness (he seems to avoid objects quite often)
-Nystagmus in both eyes
-Excessive vocalization
-Domed head (common in patients with hydrocephalus)
-Minor balance issues (can walk in a straight line without a drunken walk)
-He weights 4 pounds and his sister weighs 7.5 pounds (obvious size difference)

Anyone have anything to say about this? My wife and I are torn over this. :help:

Here are some comparison pictures between him and his sister. Both were born in the same litter.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I am so sorry to read this. I had a puppy with hydrocephalus. She had to be put to sleep at just shy of 4 months old, after putting up a good fight. The more she grew, the more damage the hydrocephalus caused.

I went to a neurologist, but they needed to run tests to see if she could even be put under for an MRI.

Her prognosis even with a brain shunt was maybe two years. I didn't want her to suffer any more (it was clear she was suffering in the end). 

She lived a happy two months with me, and only got bad toward the end. (She went blind, couldn't walk..). Needless to say, a puppy with hydrocephalus is going to be heartbreaking, expensive, and hard to potty train. I was at the vet with her every single week. 

It was the most heartbreaking thing I have ever went through so I definitely am so sorry to hear this. 

How old is the puppy? I will say, as they grow and mature, it will effect them more. As their skull hardens the pressure from the fluid pushes on the brain more and causes brain damage and nerve damage. My girl went downhill really fast. I miss my girl so much, but I know that even if I had put her through all that, her life would've been cut short and never would have been normal. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. 

(and from the pictures, yes it definitely looks like Hydrocephalus.). 

Again, I am so sorry. 


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Also, I did do a lot of research on this..

If you do decided to go with a shunt, it WILL have to be replaced every so often. They don't last forever. That is a *huge* surgery for a little puppy to have once, let alone numerous times.

They won't ever be able to wear a collar. Their long term prognosis isn't good. They may not survive the surgery. 

There are other options, which may be worth trying...I think one is omeprazole (it's an antacid). It has been show to decrease the CSF production. Prednisone is another one (my girl was on it for some time and it improved her symptoms dramatically, but they came back when she went off of it). Regardless, those only mask the symptoms. 

My best advice - go consult with a neurologist, but prepare for the worst with hydrocephalus.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

not sure i would put a pup through all the procedures and still end up in pain at the end. see what the neuro doc says and take it from there.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Personally I think it is irresponsible for the breeder to give this puppy away and rely on people's emotions to "solve" hers. I would have put this puppy to sleep.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Personally I think it is irresponsible for the breeder to give this puppy away and rely on people's emotions to "solve" hers. I would have put this puppy to sleep.


 The lady we got the puppy's from was not a breeder. Both the parents have papers as purebreds, but she only had about 4 litters and gave the puppy's away to her family mainly. This litter was an "accident" and she ended up selling the puppies for dirt cheap to the first people to take them. When we saw Haans, we knew no-one was going to take him and it was obvious the lady didn't know what she was doing, and her enviroment was not at all suited for puppies. The first night we brought them home, Haans passed a rubber band...

We decided to make an appointment with the neurologist and get the scans done. The vet did say that there is a possibility of there being a minor issue that may be fixed without a shunt. We may try medication as well to see if that alleviates the symptoms.

I just can't stand the thought of putting this puppy to sleep if there is even a remote chance that he can be saved and live a normal and happy live.

I'd still love to hear more opinions and stories if anyone has them to share.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Of course these people are breeders. If you create a litter you are a breeder (IMO)


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

kyle, i think the term for her would be back yard breeder. imho, they often produce nice family pets. often though you loose out on on some health testing and they usually don't breed for specific attributes. in other words, you most likely won't win tittles with your gsd, but could end up with a great family dog.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

A great family dog was all we wanted. Now all we want is for Haans to get better.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Personally, I would mercifully euthanize this little guy. His symptoms seem extensive, and without a good ending. It would be hard to do now, but even harder later, and with unknown amounts of money spent. I can see spending the money if the prognosis is very positive but in this case to what end. He won't be in any pain, or confusion anymore. This may sound callous, although I can understand how hard it would be.


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## TANDB (Dec 12, 2005)

No experience with dogs but my son had a 3rd ventriculostomy done back in early 2002. 
Ask neuro if it's an option. This link speaks of it being done in 2007 but I didn't look to see if there was any follow up. Good luck with your pup! 

Third Ventriculostomy in Dog With Hydrocephalus Info |SARC


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

An animal that young should not have to suffer a life of illness and painful procedures.
Consider the quality of life now and in the future and go from there.
The cuteness and emotion need to be taken out of the equation and what is in the dog's best interest should be the decision-making factor.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

huntergreen said:


> kyle, i think the term for her would be back yard breeder. imho, they often produce nice family pets. often though you loose out on on some health testing and they usually don't breed for specific attributes. in other words, you most likely won't win tittles with your gsd, but could end up with a great family dog.


Odds are against getting a sound puppy, both temperment and health as seen in this case. This "breeder" should not have allowed this puppy to leave with anyone without a diagnosis....free or not.

To the OP, I am terribly sorry your puppy has these issues. I know nothing about this condition but I do hope somehow things work out.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> An animal that young should not have to suffer a life of illness and painful procedures.
> Consider the quality of life now and in the future and go from there.
> The cuteness and emotion need to be taken out of the equation and what is in the dog's best interest should be the decision-making factor.
> __________________


 
I so agree with this How sad, he is such a cute little thing, and so sad that he may not have a full life

You are angels tho, for taking him and trying to do what you can.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kudos for you for stepping up where this breeder did not (not cool!!!). I don't know much about this condition in dogs but would personally find it very difficult to watch a puppy that can't normally walk in a straight line. I would give him the best life you can right now if it he not in pain yet but personally would not want to put him through the procedures described only to prolong the inevitable.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

If it were my puppy, and the money for the scan wasn't an issue, I would do the initial scans to be sure that it wasn't some minor issue that could be fixed easily like the one vet mentioned. However, if his prognosis isn't good, I would euthanize the pup. 

And please don't take this the wrong way, because all of my life I have looked at "worst case scenarios"...
What if you need the money you're considering spending on the sick pup for your female pup over the course of her lifetime? Hopefully, nothing too serious crops up, but many owners on here will tell you it isn't uncommon to have to spend several thousand dollars over a 10-12 year period. There could be hip issues, bloat surgeries, injuries, etc. It all adds up quickly. Just a thought.

I think you and your wife are wonderful for taking him in. He is lucky because at least he has a chance. I just personally wouldn't put him through a whole lot, unless there is a lot to be gained for him. Good luck!


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

OP, if you look up my threads on here, you will find pictures of my hydrocephalic girl, Akira. What your puppy has is no doubt hydrocephalus. Please consider the puppy's quality of life.. And the fact that from experience I know that watching a puppy go through this is heartbreaking. 

Also do some research on brain shunts. They can fail the next day after being put in. They can fail anytime. And the pup will need that expensive surgery again. The long term prognosis is most likely not longer than 2 years. 

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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ksotto333 said:


> Personally, I would mercifully euthanize this little guy. His symptoms seem extensive, and without a good ending. It would be hard to do now, but even harder later, and with unknown amounts of money spent. I can see spending the money if the prognosis is very positive but in this case to what end. He won't be in any pain, or confusion anymore. This may sound callous, although I can understand how hard it would be.


This is what this breeder did to the adopters. Now, not just the pup is suffering but his new owners are as well. emotionally and financially. 
I am very sorry that you guys are going through this.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

I really appreciate the feedback everyone. We have made the decision to make the scans. If it is serious to the point where quality of life will be effected, we will euthanize. I really don't want to see the little guy suffer.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

KyleKidd said:


> I really appreciate the feedback everyone. We have made the decision to make the scans. If it is serious to the point where quality of life will be effected, we will euthanize. I really don't want to see the little guy suffer.


All our best to you. Hoping for a good outcome.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Thanks for giving this little pup a chance. I hope that there is a medical solution that will improve his quality of life and, if not, it sounds like you will give him the best life possible, whatever the length.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I think that you are doing the right thing in getting the scans. It is what I would do. Once you know more, you'll be able to make the right decision. Even if it is a worst case scenario, you will have given the pup a much nicer life with his sister than if you had left him behind.
I think that you are awesome.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

blehmannwa said:


> I think that you are doing the right thing in getting the scans. It is what I would do. Once you know more, you'll be able to make the right decision. Even if it is a worst case scenario, you will have given the pup a much nicer life with his sister than if you had left him behind.
> I think that you are awesome.


Couldn't say it better. Completely agree. Thank you for taking in this little guy. He is adorable. Praying for a good prognosis.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We called one of the best Dog neurologists around; someone from Cornell. Haans has an appointment next Thursday.

I also took a video of Haans and Luna playing. (brother and sister from the same litter)
You can see the size difference and how at the end he circles when I call for him.

Puppies - YouTube

I couldn't figure out how to embed a video, so I just linked to the video.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

They are both precious. PLEASE let us know how your appointment goes.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

I absolutely will. I'll keep you guys updated with other information until we see the Neurologist as well.


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## bibaxt (Jan 9, 2014)

My sister in law bought a yorkie that turned out to have this condition, 12 years ago. She is an old girl now, but pretty healthy and happy. See the número, there might be a happy ending, best wishes to you


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## AkariKuragi (Dec 19, 2011)

Awwwww! I wish I could give him a hug. : ( Poor little guy... You guys are awesome for taking him in and doing what you can for him!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

KyleKidd said:


> I really appreciate the feedback everyone. We have made the decision to make the scans. If it is serious to the point where quality of life will be effected, we will euthanize. I really don't want to see the little guy suffer.


That is very brave. I wish you and the pup the best.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Aw. She is very gentle with him. I guess she knows he is fragile. I would imagine that it could be dangerous for them to play too rough. I wonder if a softer surface would be better?


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

The video is adorable. Haans seems to be having fun, It may be that he has a short life but a merry one. I hope that his condition is treatable. Wishing you the best.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Awwww, what a precious baby boy...

Makes my heart so sad, and brings flashbacks of my girl. She had that same walk. I always thought it was so cute.

I am praying for the best for you and Haans. :hugs:


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Update on Haans:

My wife and I both feel that Haans seems to be getting better. 

He is eating almost as much as his sister now, he barks to go outside when he needs to eliminate (his sister hasn't even caught on to do that yet), and we've been observing him walking in straighter lines. A few minutes ago, he just walked the entire length of the house in a straight line to me when I called him. 

Oh, and he comes when I call him and recognizes his name. Luna hasn't gotten that down yet either. (and we spoil her and give her just as much attention). He also is able to find his food bowl and water bowl on his own without guidance. He puts his paw in the dish when he gets there so he wont lose his place. 

It may be a coincidence, but I've been rubbing his neck fairly often since he started walking in straight lines. He absolutely loves it. Maybe I'm helping to drain the fluids in his head or something.

The Neurologist appointment is on Thursday. I'm very anxious about what he is going to find. I'm half confident the doctor is going to say he will be okay, and half nervous he is going to tell me we need to put him down. The anxiety is eating away at me.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

Your pups are both adorable. I am following your journey with Haans. Thanks for keeping us updated and for what you are doing for him. 


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Keep doing that massage. I know my animals (dogs and my other critters) love Reiki and put their body under my hands just where they need it. Trust your intuition. I hope he will beat the odds. Miracles do happen. Please let us know the results of the visit.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We are currently at the pet hospital now, the neurologist just left the room. The entire staff is extremely interested in Haans and his condition. 

They do not believe he has hydrocephalus, even though he has a lot of the symptoms associated. During their assessment, they found a tiny hole/fracture on the top of Haans's skull. They determined it was not part of the normal fontenel (sp?) opening (where the skull naturally opens up as a puppy and closes over time). He believes that it may be a puncture wound, possibly from the mother pulling him out of the birth canal during a rough labor. 

In addition, he did a quick MRI scan(only a few layors because they were curious, they didn't even ask us first) and found that about the top 2/3 of his skull is filled with some type of fluid. That huge amount of fluid is pushing on his brain and causing all these issues. Even though there is technically fluid on his brain, he doesn't think its hydrocephalus because he thinks the fluid is an abscess, possibly from introduced bacteria through the puncture in his skull. This is actually good news, since there is a good chance the abscess could be drained and antibacterials can cure whatever is causing the issue. The Neurologist said that we can do an MRI to find out for sure whats going on, do an ultrasound through the tiny puncture in his skull and then insert a needle through the abscess to get a sample of the fluid and run a bacteria culture, and at the very least put him on a powerful antibiotic.

He thinks that with treatment, and because Haans is so young and that we caught this early, that he has a chance at a fairly normal life. He may never catch up to his sister, but all his symptoms could go away, or at the very least be extremely minor. 

The Neurologist and the management of the hospital are so interested in his case that they want to do a case study on him, and are offering serious discounts on his treatment. They waved the consultation fee ($125), and are going to give us a huge discount on the MRI (either at cost or even free) and possibly a free corrective surgery (if the MRI confirms what the neurologist believes is the problem).

We are waiting in the exam room now for the management to come to a decision on what they are going to charge us for his treatment, if they charge us at all. They really want to do the case study and said they want to get all his scans and treatments done TODAY.

I'll update as soon as they come back in and we make a final decision.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

That is fantastic news! Keep us updated.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Fingers crossed. Praying for a good outcome. Please keep us posted!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am sending good vibes, good karma and good thoughts your way!

I am glad you didn't put him to sleep and that you are still fighting for him! 

Thank you for taking him, you and your family are wonderful!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Let's hope they are right, that they waive all the fees, that Hans comes out of this in good shape and all of us (me among them) who thought euthanasia was the right course were so very wrong! Go Hans!


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## bibaxt (Jan 9, 2014)

Good vibes and positive energy! Bless you for caring! Chances are this may be the best canine companion you've ever had in your life! Were all hoping for the best! 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wow that is really interesting! Please keep us updated.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We decided to have them do the ultrasound and aspirate. Still waiting for them to bring him back and tell us what they found.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Fingers crossed- hoping the little guy makes it and this is all it is.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Okay well the ultrasound and aspirate has been done. The neurologist just came back to explain what he found. Basically they took measurements of the size of the fluid in his head and took a small sample of the fluid.

He is not sure what is causing the production of fluid yet, but we will have a better idea once we get the lab results back. He explained that the fluid extracted was dark yellow, which is extremely unusual. Once we get the lab results, we will be able to determine if bacteria are producing the fluid or not and it's origins. Once he knows that information, he will be able to better determine what the underlying problem is and how to treat it. 

It may be a static abscess which only needs to be drained, or it could be something very complex (possibly a very rare case of hydrocephalus). Something indicated to him that the fluid may be sterile, but they are still going to give Haans' an antibiotic (a scaled back version) just in case. 

We are still waiting to be discharged, but they will be giving us the full written report from the examination team once we leave. I'll go over it and provide more details when I get home.

So as of right now, we are waiting for the lab results to find out what the fluid is and its origin. That could take as long as Wednesday.

I'll continue to keep you guys updated. My Wife and I really appreciate all the support.


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## havery (Jan 1, 2014)

Sounds like you are doing an amazing thing for this little guy! My thoughts are with y'all, I hope the final diagnosis is good and he gets to lead a normal life. He looks like a sweetheart and is loved by everyone around him 

~*~*~*~
Furbabies:
Sofie Rose born 08/2012
Yann von Erzengel born 02/2006


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

best of best for you and this little guy!

I'd want to get that breeder out of the business!! If the conditions the puppies are kept in are unsanitary, I'd report them.

Good luck


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## B&Cgetapup (Nov 7, 2013)

Yay Hans!!! Rooting for y'all!

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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Here is the paperwork and ultrasound they gave us upon discharge. It explains what they found a little more scientifically. I know the ultrasound is hard to read. Tomorrow I'll explain what exactly it is showing.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm so hopeful that Haans will be treatable. I really hope for a good outcome. What a lucky dog to have found you.


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## brightspot (Apr 18, 2013)

Thank you for caring about this little guy. You're my heroes! :hugs:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Really crossing fingers for you guys; I want to be reading "Hans" stories for years to come


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Really pulling for Haans...

Sounds like he has a good chance. 


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

MyHans-someBoy said:


> Really pulling for Haans...
> 
> Sounds like he has a good chance.
> 
> ...



Yeah the Neurologist sounded very hopeful for him. They pulled 2mL of fluid out of his head yesterday to examine, and after that he has been better than I've ever seen him. 

My house has a circular design, which I often run around with Luna. After we got back from the vet, I did it with Luna and for the first time ever, Haans joined in and ran around the house 4 times with us. It was amazing. He also has been playing harder than I've ever seen.

I'll report back again soon with more information.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

<3 best wishes for little one!


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm so happy for the hopeful news!!! I'm pulling for Haans!! 


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

So glad to hear that Hans is improving. Hoping for good news from the vet!


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Awww, what a cutie. I have my fingers crossed for Haans and hoping that he makes out ok


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## MiraC (Dec 7, 2012)

He seems like a tuffy and playful! 


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

How has haans been? Any word on his biopsy yet? I have been following his story and am hoping he is doing better. Wishing for a great success story.


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## robeangyalchen (Aug 11, 2013)

Yes, please keep us updated. I have been following this thread since it started.
Praying for Haans.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Also been following this post, hoping for a follow up. Hans is such an adorable, strong little guy!  Hoping for the best!

*-*Summer*-*


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We still haven't heard back from the Lab. We were advised it will most likely be Wednesday.

Haans hasn't been as good as he was the night we brought him home. I think that the fluid which the doctor removed has been replaced. He is tightly circling again and seems unable to follow me around the house as he did the other night.

We did talk to the Neurologist again however. The Neurologist and his team really want Haans to get an MRI. They are saying that if we want to give Haans the best chance we possibly can, that he needs to be treated ASAP. The MRI is the only sure fire way to find out what is exactly wrong and provide the "map" to go in and fix it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If you are in NE PA, I would call Cornell University and ask for pricing on an MRI - I think that you could get it there for maybe $1500 and bring the report back to your neuro. That was the cost given to a friend a couple of years ago for an adult GSD, not sure if it has any basis in weight. If your vet went to Cornell they may know who to contact there to see about help in every way. Depending on how unusual the condition is, they sometimes use dogs as teaching cases for a discount. 

Videos: http://www.neurovideos.vet.cornell.edu/search.aspx (I advanced searched the http://www.neurovideos.vet.cornell.edu/ for hydrocephalus)
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/Services/Companion/Neurology/staff.cfm
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/Services/Companion/Neurology/
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/Services/Companion/Imaging/ "We provide image interpretation for all hospitalized animals and consultations to veterinarians who submit images by mail or electronically. Outpatient ultrasound (and some limited CT/MRI) examinations are also available." 

Consultation request: https://secure.vet.cornell.edu/consult/
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/vets/

Cornell is a land grant university, so some costs are lower there. It is worth a try - I always let my vet/them know that there is a certain budget I can work to - how can we accomplish this on that budget - let's work on it together, and they are very good about it, particularly if you have already shown them you are going above and beyond. 
I had a puppy/dog with a head injury - probably thrown out of or hit by a car - no way to know, and her head just blew up, so it was not a thing she was born with. She was very sick, but once tapped a couple of times she recovered. She has some very typical brain injury behaviors, and is a puppy in a dog body, which makes me love her all the more - how lucky am I to always have a puppy?!? I hope your pup is able to pull through all of this.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Running late for work, so here is a quick update copy and pasted from Haans' journal. This was from the results of the lab-work done on the fluid removed from his skull.

Aseptic inflammation (what I thought I heard). No cancer. No neoplastic cells. No bacteria. The fluid is not csf. There is no puss in the fluid. The fluid is caused from an inflammation. He said it was a Legion a few times. Steroids may help, as they could reduce inflammation, but it would be a last ditch step as they could have permanent damage on a growing puppy. He really wants to do the MRI. 

In the mean time, we can go weekly to have 3-5mL of fluid drained. There is a possibility of the fluid refilling over time. If the fluid continuously refill, then we can either have a shunt surgically inserted or possibly remove the source of the fluid by surgery if possible.

Afterthoughts: He mentioned the puncture may have introduced bacteria which all died (either from lack of oxygen, an immune response, etc). Until they died they produced the fluid which can be drained without refilling. OR, the puncture did not introduce bacteria, but the tooth penetrated the skull and irritated a meningie layer underneath the skull causing irritation and fluid buildup.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I hope they are still interested in follow up with little expense to you and, more importantly, that Haans responds well and pulls through for you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

middleofnowhere said:


> I hope they are still interested in follow up with little expense to you and, more importantly, that Haans responds well and pulls through for you.


I am starting to wonder about his quality of life. I may be offending many of you here but to me it starts to feel like this is medical science competing against a helpless puppy.
How do they measure his comfort / pain levels?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Beaming positive thoughts...
I suggest contacting university clinics. They are not-for-profit and may have the best prices for the MRI.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We are at the hospital for another visit and fluid drain. They are going to be taking out more fluid this time.


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## brightspot (Apr 18, 2013)

Sweet, sweet babies. :wub: I hope he does well.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

While Haans was at the hospital we decided he couldn't wait any longer to get his MRI. I just got off the phone with the neurologist and the news wasn't good.

He definitely has hydrocephalus, and an extreme case of it. He only has about an estimated 10% of his normal brain function. The fluid is pushing on his brain so hard that his brain is almost being pushed under the back of his skull. 

The neurologist said he will never be able to be normal, and since the cerebellum is responsible for a large part of learning, that he will most likely never learn anything including potty training.

Our options are to either start him on fluid reducing medications or attempt to implant a shunt to drain the fluid into his belly. The shunt will cost an estimated $3-5000 and has perpetual chance of failure. Medication may help a little but will destroy his kidneys and have other possible side effects.

At this point, my wife and I are thinking it's time to let him go.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So sorry to hear this but I think you have made the right decision. At least the little fella got to know love and that says an awful lot.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I am so sorry. I was hoping for better news. You gave this little pup every possible chance. The problem with excess fluid, is that it causes brain damage. Once that happens, it cannot be fixed. Thank you for trying so hard.

Hugs!


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## LoriH (Apr 16, 2013)

I've been following this thread and am so sorry that the news isn't better. He's very lucky to have you and your wife making every effort for him. This is truly sad.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sending my very best to you and your wife. Thanks for giving this pup a chance.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor baby - and poor you. This is so sad. At least he doesn't understand. I think putting him to sleep is the smartest option. He must be in pain. :'(

*-*Summer*-*


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

You gave this little guy a far greater chance than nearly anyone else would have. I was rooting for you, too, but I agree that the right decision is likely euthanasia. You've done so well by him. I am sorry that you had to go through all of this.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I am really sorry to hear this. You have done everything you could for him and sometimes the kindest thing is to let them go so they don't have to suffer


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I am so sorry. I have to say from my experience with major veterinarian interventions--chemo, dialysis--that I would not consider a shunt or meds. Comes a point when there is no good outcome.

Thank goodness that he had someone to care about him.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Ahhh! Just read thru this tread. Was hoping would turn out for the best. You guys really stepped up for Haans. He will forever know your love. Peace to you.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

So sorry to hear of the confirmed diagnosis. I really know how bad this sucks and how unfair it is, but you gave the little guy a chance that most wouldn't. The kindest thing would be to euthanize him.. Shunts are an extremely hard surgery for a puppy to undergo.. And can fail literally the day after inserted. You guys are in my thoughts, and I am sad to see another very young puppy have to go through this terrible condition.. 


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Crap. I was really hoping he was going to be alright. Yes, I think you are right that it is time to let him go. You got the definitive diagnosis and it is dreadful. You did as right by this little guy as anyone could.


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## robeangyalchen (Aug 11, 2013)

I am very sorry to hear this, you guys did all you could for him, the right thing to do will be let him off the pain.
He was an handsome boy, he will always be remembered.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

I am so so sorry to hear this. I too was hoping for a good outcome. I can only imagine how hard this is for you and your spouse. Just know that you did all that you could. What's out of your control is beyond your efforts. You gave Haans an opportunity that he would not have had without you, and you gave him love and happiness during his time here. The two of you are amazing human beings and the universe is happy to have you. Thank you do much for all that you have done. Be at peace with yourselves, Haans was blessed to have you. 


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Bless his little heart and yours too. My son was born with a genetic mutation. His head and brain are larger, therefore he has more fluid on his brain. Larger ventricles require more fluid to support the brain. He would be considered hydrocephalic, but it is a benign type. People with his condition do need to be monitored. I always watched him for headaches. One of his friends, with the same condition, had the onset of an excruciating headache. Fortunately, he was at the pool, where another member was a neurosurgeon. He was in the hospital getting a shunt ASAP. Left untreated, there is brain damage. I know you would not want your little pup to be in so much pain and the damage has already been done. You are absolutely doing the right thing. 

I know this is heartbreaking for you and I am so sorry. No one could have tried any harder.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I was so hoping for a good outcome when I opened this today. I am so very sorry. He is a lucky little angel to have you. You did all that is possible for him. It is a heartbreak when nature takes its own way and we are unable to help.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

When we went to pick up Haans yesterday night after he woke up from the anesthesia, we told the doctor we want to end his suffering. 

The doctor strong urged us to try one more thing for him. He said he had time to talk to some of his colleagues and they all agreed that if the source of the inflammation could be stopped or reduced that he may be able to recover to the point which he could live a comfortable and pain free life. 

He watched the video we showed him of Haans after the 2mL of fluid was removed that night and he was extremely impressed. He didn't think that it would be possible for him to be that well and thinks if the inflammation could be brought under control that there is still hope for him.

We told him we don't want him to suffer any longer, and he assured us he is not currently suffering. He shows no signs of being in pain or discomfort. We agreed to give him 1 week to try the steroid treatment. While we have hope that it could help him, we're going to use this week to spoil the crap out of him and say goodbye. If there is no improvement by next Thursday then we are stopping. I'm worried as it is that we put him through too much.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I commend your dr and you for trying to help this little boy. I agree with your decision and will pray for a miracle this week..

Give him a hug from us and please keep us updated, so many people pulling for him!


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I wish you all the best. Spoil that pup! I hope this treatment works.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

What steroid? I just want to warn you he *will* get better with the steroid. Steroids are anti inflammatory.. My girl was on prednisone for a few weeks and she was so much better. But as soon as the dose was tapered down, her symptoms came right back. Steroids are also usually very hard on the liver and kidneys. 


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, they are grabbing at straws and if it is damage......my daughter's mini-chi* was hit in the head by a book that fell off a table. ..and recovered after a course of steroids. They thought it was not going to make it for awhile.

If it were mine, I would give it a go but not get my hopes too high. Haans we are all pulling for you!


*I always mention she rescued it. these should not be bred but it is a lovable little dog.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Prayers for Haans that he improves this week. You are giving him every possible chance and he is a little fighter. Miracles happen sometimes.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

So sorry this is happening to Haans ... hope the little fellow is showing signs of permanent improvement.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Praying for a miracle. You are doing the right thing in giving Haans this last chance.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Praying for a miracle. You are doing the right thing in giving Haans this last chance.


:thumbup:

Come on Haans, we are all pulling for you!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Rooting for Haans and family...


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## KorrasMom (Dec 29, 2013)

Just thinking about Haans. Hoping for an update. Really wish he is doing well.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Sorry I haven't updated in a while. 

In the last few days, Haans' medicine has been reaching its peak potential. He is showing serious signs of improvement. Enough that we have put off euthanasia for now.

Over the past week, he has been doing things we have never seen him do. Firstly we noticed that he now picks his head up when sitting or standing. Before he had a slouched posture where his eyes would be looking towards to floor in the distance (probably because he couldn't see anything).

In addition, he is looking around at his surroundings. When we pick him up and hold him, he will look right into our eyes and give us "kisses" on the cheek. 

He is still circling and has difficulty navigating because of this. However, he wil have small spurts when he goes in a straight line for 10-20 feet without trouble. 

He has been playing heavily with his sister, and often times will chase her around the room in non-circle like patterns. Yesterday, he played tug of war with her with a sock toy!

Tonight we brought over my parents 7 year old Shepard to spend the night. I couldn't believe my eyes as to how excited he got around her. I got some video and will upload it shortly.

Also, he no longer goes to the bathroom in his crate. He will whine and bark before he goes to the bathroom, which gives us hope he will be able to be potty trained.

I'm not saying he has miraculously gotten better, it's not like that. But he IS showing serious signs of improvement, and the potential to live a normal life with the proper help. His ability to act and behave normal IS there, as we have been seeing it time and time again.

His medicine is helping, but it is not a long term solution. We understand that. We just need it to help him until we can afford the permanent solution (a shunt). Since my last post, my wife and I have raised $1,250 of about the $4-5000 needed for his surgery. As this rate, we should be able to afford his surgery within a month.

I will keep you updated to any changes, and will be posting a video of him playing shorty.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Just saw this myself, hope the little guy gets better and wishing you all the best. Whatever the final outcome you guys gave the little guy a chance!

God Bless you all!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Of course these people are breeders. If you create a litter you are a breeder (IMO)


Minor rant here these people are/were BYB's much different connotation then "Breeder" Breeder denotes some concern for the health of the puppies and Good ones health test the parents!

BYB's don't! BYB's are the bane of the Boxer world! Boxers have a 10 year life span if your luck and an average of 6 yrs is not uncommon????

I got lucky??? With my BYB Boxer the 2nd time, the first time not so much! 2 weeks parvo chose to keep puppy and fight it and lost, the second BYB puppy lasted 10 yrs...barely, DM at 8 yrs and I took care of her 24/7 for 2 years tell the end last NOV,.

Folks do real "Breeders" a deserve by using the term "breeders" for BYB folks. There is a difference. 

Sorry for the rant in a moving and heroic story but the real Breeders don't want to defend themselves so I'd just like folks to be clear on the difference. 

As I said, Boxer fan that learned the hard way what the difference is!


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

Thanks for the update. I'm glad there is progress. Keep us posted. 


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also thanks for the update! Sounds good! praying he continues to improve!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Glad to hear things are improving. Thanks for the update. Would love to see some pics or video of the little guy. 
Hoping his upcoming surgery will be a success and bring even bigger improvements. 
No one could do more to give him the best chance at a good quality life than you have.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Here is a video I put together last night of some of the moments he has had over the last 3 or 4 days.

_ *** Video removed by ADMIN - see board rules about solicitations ***_


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What quality of life does this dog have?
How much pain is he in?
What is the prognosis?
The report about his condition makes me wonder all these things, as well as wonder about the motivation of those vets to keep his pup going, despite your request to let him go and be at peace.

My heart breaks for his poor little guy.



KyleKidd said:


> While Haans was at the hospital we decided he couldn't wait any longer to get his MRI. I just got off the phone with the neurologist and the news wasn't good.
> 
> He definitely has hydrocephalus, and an extreme case of it. He only has about an estimated 10% of his normal brain function. The fluid is pushing on his brain so hard that his brain is almost being pushed under the back of his skull.
> 
> ...


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

He looks pretty happy in the video. At first I thought that he was in pain but the yelping was coming from his crated sister! Drove my dogs crazy so I recommend muting it if you watch the vid.
Thanks for the update. It seems like a tough decision but Haans is a charmer. I remember when Fel was on chemo and shuffling off this mortal coil, on Havoc's first birthday she deigned to play tog-of-war with him for all of 30 seconds. He was ecstatic and she was pleased with herself. It was a moment that made all the expense and worry worthwhile. I had to say Goodbye to her less than three weeks later and I'm so glad that I have that memory.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

In your updates, you say he is lethargic and cries when he eats.
I hope you search your soul and find the strength to do the right thing for this innocent creature.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I found the video hard to watch, probably not what many want to read but its sad with a poor prognosis.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> In your updates, you say he is lethargic and cries when he eats.
> I hope you search your soul and find the strength to do the right thing for this innocent creature.


When we first brought him home he did yes. He now gobbles up his dry dog food with no issues. Tail wags when we set down the food bowl. As for him being lethargic, he still is but has been recently been less and less. 

As for his quality of life, I think it is good. He does not currently show any signs of pain, and actually shows a lot of signs of happiness (tail wagging, playfulness, etc).

The only real issue with him now is his circleing. Everything else seems to be getting much much better.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he's pretty darn active in the video, I think as long as he isn't suffering, and the OP is willing to go that extra mile for him, no harm done I again, commend you for hanging in there with him, he's a cutie


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I read that in this update your wife posted 1 day ago, according to your website... So now I have no idea what is actually going on.

"We were supposed to be taking Haans to the vet again today for another check up, but the snow storm that we got closed down the vet's office, so our visit is postponed. We're hoping to find out why he's been so lethargic. He's also been crying when he eats, but we think it's because he's still teething. He doesn't have the natural instinct to chew on toys and other things to teethe, so the only time he really chews is on his food. We've been getting him some more chew toys and trying to encourage him to chew on them, but he just doesn't want to. So, hopefully that's why he's crying when he eats. Otherwise, he needs his second round of vaccines and just a general check up. 

After he sees the normal vet, we have to make an appointment with his neurologist again to sit down and talk about his options. We have to talk about the risks involved in the surgery, possible outcomes, recovery, etc. He said something briefly about his concern for aggression, but I don't know what he meant by that? He said he'd rather talk about it in person, so we'll discuss it when we see him. I can't imagine him being aggressive though. For how much he's been through, procedures and tests, let alone his condition, he's been such a sweet and gentle soul. 

We'll keep you updated when we know more! Thanks so much everyone for giving him the chance to get his treatment!!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hang in there!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

puppies generally do not cry when they eat
because of teething 
has the vet discussed 
the very real possibility
that the hydro is not his only health problem?
years ago a female we had
gave birth to a puppy with hydro
the puppy had other health issuesas well
and due to suffering euthanasia
was the kindest thing in our case


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> puppies generally do not cry when they eat
> because of teething


I have never had any dog cry when teething.
Would be nice if the vets on this board would chime in.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We had one night where he was doing poorly a few days ago. He was being very lethargic and was whining a lot (not only when eating). This happened a few days after we started him on the medication which pulls fluid from his body. 

The next morning (after my wife posted that) he had a huge, dry, and hard elimination. He was extremely constipated from his medicine pulling water off his body. Since then we've been making him drink more and supplementing his diet with both wet dog food and a little bit of mothers replacement milk.

Since then all has been normal. Absolutely no whining while chewing on food, toys, or anything else. And before that one single incident, he did not whine while eating either. We are pretty sure that he was very constipated which caused him discomfort and possibly some pain. 

He also bends down to reach his food bowl which extends his stomach a bit. This probably hurt him and caused whining which appeared to come from chewing. We also opened his mouth (with our fingers, he is a sweetie) and checked everything out with a flashlight and everything looked normal. (his mouth was also fully checked out by 3 different vets and found to be very healthy).

My wife also tends to make things more bleak then they are, and writes when she is emotional.

Either way, everyday he has only been getting better and better. I don't know how long that will last, or if it will last, but I assure all of you: if the time comes to where his quality of life is not that of a happy dog (and relatively painless), we will not allow him to suffer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well that's good (better) news. And yeah he is a puppy so it can still be normal puppy stuff . And be cautious with that vet and the he's aggressive stuff?? Or never mind if I got that wrong?


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well that's good (better) news. And yeah he is a puppy so it can still be normal puppy stuff . And be cautious with that vet and the he's aggressive stuff?? Or never mind if I got that wrong?


I still have to talk to the neurologist about what he means about the aggressiveness. He wants to talk about something to do with it. Possibly about him being aggressive in the future, but I'm not sure why.

We'll find out on our next visit.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You should let your wife know that facts and information are reviewed by people, as you can see here, and that emotional appeals that are misleading can very much backfire. Stick to the facts - having written a lot of updates for sick dogs in rescue, that's what people want - the situation is dramatic enough without embellishment. 

As to the potential for aggression, my total guess is that this is a brain injury, and some dogs with brain injuries are like some people with brain injuries - there can be erratic behaviors. My dog with the brain injury is stuck at 4-6 months in terms of her behavior, has long-term memory issues, some interesting sensory things. Could not love my lifetime puppy more! Good luck to little Haans.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know Haans is the topic of the thread but I would love to see posts about the sister - hope with all the attention he is getting that she is getting lots and lots of attention on her own as she will grow up before you know it.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> I know Haans is the topic of the thread but I would love to see posts about the sister - hope with all the attention he is getting that she is getting lots and lots of attention on her own as she will grow up before you know it.


I've been meaning to write up a thread about her as well. She gets an abundance of attention from both my wife and my parents, who stop by about 2-3 times a week. So far she has learned how to: Sit, Lay, Paw (and other paw), target, spin, and is currently working on beg. She is the model of puppy healthiness, and is a great companion to little Haans.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wonder how ethical it is to keep this puppy alive. Sorry, it is my honest opinion, as the title of the thread asks for. He seems to run from one painful condition to another and all that is done is putting a "band-aid" over the real issue. I feel very sorry for this pup and am not admiring all the cost and emotions invested in this poor animal and don't understand the vets who "treat" and "treat" him.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I wonder how ethical it is to try make the owners feel guilty for doing what they and their vets feel is the best for their dog. Obviously this pup has plenty of will to live.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

RebelGSD said:


> I wonder how ethical it is to try make the owners feel guilty for doing what they and their vets feel is the best for their dog. Obviously this pup has plenty of will to live.


?
I totally understand the desire and need to try to do all that one can before having to make the very dreadful decision to end a life. I commend Haan's parents for their loyalty to him, their strength, their compassion and their sacrifice. It cannot be an easy journey for them. They are wonderful human beings. 


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RebelGSD said:


> I wonder how ethical it is to try make the owners feel guilty for doing what they and their vets feel is the best for their dog. Obviously this pup has plenty of will to live.


I wonder how ethical it is to try and make someone who has a different opinion feel like a heartless beast.

I am growing very tired of people being afraid to post their real thoughts, fearing they will be bashed.

I, too, am of the opinion that this pup is being tortured in the name of "kindness and compassion. "

He was born with severe defects and I feel as if the vets are using him for a research experiment. That was apparent when they were so eager to see and examine this pup, at discounted prices.

He will never be normal, they said. He has 10% brain function, they said. Yet they are giving the owners false hope, I have no idea for what.
I think the kindest thing is to let him go.

And that is my opinion.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Maybe some could wonder how kind and sensitive they are and how they hurt people who are fighting for their animal's life with their comments. It goes both ways. There might be situations when real thoughts and opinions are insensitive to the the receiving party.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RebelGSD said:


> Maybe some could wonder how kind and sensitive they are and how they hurt people who are fighting for their animal's life with their comments. It goes both ways. There might be situations when real thoughts and opinions are insensitive to the the receiving party.


If they truly love their animal, they will consider all opinions, which they asked for.

Since when are we so sensitive that we can only listen to "good" opinions?

If it were I who owned this pup, I would not only want to be applauded. I would want to know what people really thought, good or bad.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Well, it was hard to miss as you had said it plenty of times. I am sure they are very familiar with the opinions of people from the internet who have never met the dog and who feel they should kill their dog by now. Apparently they made their own decision, which is different.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> I wonder how ethical it is to keep this puppy alive. Sorry, it is my honest opinion, as the title of the thread asks for. He seems to run from one painful condition to another and all that is done is putting a "band-aid" over the real issue. I feel very sorry for this pup and am not admiring all the cost and emotions invested in this poor animal and don't understand the vets who "treat" and "treat" him.



I appreciate your honesty. This is what I created this thread for: to get the thoughts and opinions of people on both sides. 

I too wonder if we are doing the right thing from time to time. I think in the beginning I should of went with my gut and had him put down, as we were unsure if he would respond to treatment and it was a bit selfish to keep him alive just because we were attached. 

But now I'm glad we waited, as Haans is getting better with treatment every single day. You are right that his current form of treatment is a band-aid, but he is only on that treatment to give him time for the permanent solution (shunt).

EDITED - warning. Jean Admin I would bet that by the end of the month we could be ready to do the surgery.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

RebelGSD said:


> I wonder how ethical it is to try make the owners feel guilty for doing what they and their vets feel is the best for their dog. Obviously this pup has plenty of will to live.


As long as people are being civil about it, I value their opinions. And yes, he has lots of will to live.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

RebelGSD said:


> Maybe some could wonder how kind and sensitive they are and how they hurt people who are fighting for their animal's life with their comments. It goes both ways. There might be situations when real thoughts and opinions are insensitive to the the receiving party.


Thank You well put!:wub:


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

sadly it is vogue nowadays
to keep pets alive though 
often suffering
i see far too many rescues do this as well
including the massive fundraising campaigns 
that seem to go hand in hand
i do believe this puppy is suffering
personally i have very limited experience 
with hydrocephalus but maybe 
more than others here
and the puppy in my case was not
comfortable
there was no quality of life there
hydrocephalus is painful 
no matter what anyone says
constant pressure on the brain 
is going to be painful because
how could it not be?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Let's see how this all shakes out - I have no idea if he's suffering with the fluid being drained. My dog was fine after her head was tapped a couple of times (not congenital, traumatic injury). It doesn't seem like it - but what do we know - we have people who have dogs with back issues, elbow and/or hip issues, seizures, or shorter term things like those who have had bloat surgeries, etc, and there is going to be pain and discomfort - I would hope that our goal is not to never have our animals feel any pain or we will put them down, because they are an organism that is going to experience that at some point. 

I do know for myself, having a normal dog is not my goal - I have a dog who died as a puppy during surgery, was brought back after losing oxygen for a period of time (found this on his paperwork when I fostered him). He has poor vision, vertigo, and is delayed intellectually in many ways but is the most loving and happy creature in the world - helping me shovel the sidewalk is like doggy Disney world for him. My other dog with the head injury also has difficulties but who wouldn't love a dog that is always going to be a puppy! 

I knew they were not typical when adopting both these dogs, and it seems like Haans' family knows that they may have a dog that is delayed. But really I put my money on a GSD with 10% brain function over most dogs anyway!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I find these posts bullying the owners to kill Haans extremely disturbing. Expressing an opinion is one thing, but some of these post are neither respectful nor courteous. Some are downright rude and attacking and are breaking board rules.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

KyleKidd has every opportunity to report any post he feels is a personal attack. He has already stated that all opinions are welcome. I personally understand both sides of the argument.




KyleKidd said:


> As long as people are being civil about it, I value their opinions. And yes, he has lots of will to live.



*Threads such as this one are very emotional. I recommend that everyone involved do their best to voice their opinion in as understanding a manner as possible. Let's stay away from being overly dramatic.*


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am still pulling for Haans, you can do it little buddy! :wub:


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

RebelGSD said:


> I find these posts bullying the owners to kill Haans extremely disturbing. .


This is uncalled for. The OP started this thread looking for opinions. Until this post I felt opinions were being shared in a respectful way. The OP has not been offended so why are you?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have a right to my opinion too, and gathering statements of the OPs wife from elsewhere to bully them to kill the dog is rude and offensive in my opinion. The OP is very polite, if he does not say it and complain, it does not mean that this is not hurtful to them. I am entitled to my opinions as much as those who want to see this pup killed.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

*****The back and forth bickering in this thread will stop or warnings will be issued. This is not helping the OP in any way. State your opinion to make your point. *****


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

To me, this board first and foremost serves as a very important reference. 
There is only so much you can learn from Internet veterinary sites. 
This board provides real life experience information from people who have been through it. 
I have used the search function more than once to help me figure out how to fix my dog's illnesses. One obscure, 4 year old post saved us from unnecessary surgery and spared my dog a lot of suffering. 
For that, I am very grateful. 

People don't only come here for support and to feel good. They come here for facts, information and help. Help cannot be found if information is incomplete. 

Information was put on the internet that I felt would complete the picture. For the sake of those who have a dog with similar issues and are looking for answers, in the present and future, there needs to be accuracy and completeness of information.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

That information can be shown in a manner that displays the validity of the information without demeaning the viewpoint others may share. If the information is compelling enough, your point will be made without personally attacking others that do not share the same opinion.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

gsdlover91 said:


> I am so sorry to read this. I had a puppy with hydrocephalus. She had to be put to sleep at just shy of 4 months old, after putting up a good fight. The more she grew, the more damage the hydrocephalus caused.
> 
> I went to a neurologist, but they needed to run tests to see if she could even be put under for an MRI.
> 
> ...


imo this was the best and most experienced 
opinion out there
the outlook is bleak for this puppy and all with hydro
unless like jeans you find its temporary
it's not "killing" 
it is saving a puppy 
from a life of suffering which is worse than 
a kind death which is what euthanasia means
this person goes on in the next post to 
explain how shunts work 
they don't work that well at all 
and each is a major painful surgery
which puppy may not survive 
how is the desire to spare a puppy from that
unkind?

if the puppy had a chance at a pain free 
existence and it was less harsh on it to 
possibly become pain free
i personally would be for it
i don't know if people fully realize how 
devastating hydro is 

the above poster lived it firsthand


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't know.
I thought we were animal lovers here. Loving an animal includes euthanasia when it is required. 
I do not see where I said to go "kill" a perfectly healthy puppy. The thought nowadays is that nothing should die, everything should be saved. This might be a generational disagreement.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Maybe he just needs some help? Maybe he's fighting but he can't do it on his own?

We don't euthanize people when they are sick, we help them.

If he's continuing to improve, if he's trying to fight, then help him fight!

I support the OP and whatever decision they make but I am happy that they are fighting for him and I hope that in 5 years Haans is around, healthy and full of life. 

I continue to send good thoughts, good karma and best wishes their way. ​


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I don't know.
> I thought we were animal lovers here. Loving an animal includes euthanasia when it is required.
> I do not see where I said to go "kill" a perfectly healthy puppy. The thought nowadays is that nothing should die, everything should be saved. This might be a generational disagreement.


Ive been trying to avoid this thread. But I have to agree with sunflowers here....cause I put my Hydrocephalic puppy down who was pretty much in the same state as this puppy. I did not 'kill' my puppy. She was suffering, she had headaches from the fluid buildup and when it started to kill her brain tissue she really went down hill. I know you say Haans has a lot of will to live, but dogs are REALLY good at hiding their suffering. I had no idea how bad my puppy was hurting. I still feel guilty to this day. 

PLEASE think about the quality of life. A BRAIN shunt being inserted is a HUGE surgery for anything, let alone a PUPPY.

Think about what you would do if the shunt failed the very next day after surgery (it is entirely possible...). What about the possibility of sepsis? 

The shunt will not last forever. I am certain it will have to be replaced, especially as the dog grows. Think about how many surgeries that might be. 

I know how hard this decision is, I really do. I was faced with it. 

Since Haans has hydrocephalus so young, it is not likely he will ever be free from it. Dogs who get acquired hydro later in life usually are okay, but the prognosis for puppies with hydro is bleak. WITH a shunt, he might make it to two. Without a shunt, it is unlikely he will make it to one year. 

I really hate to be the 'negative' one here, but I just need to insert my information and my experience. Like I said in my very first post on this thread, prepare yourself for the worst, because hydrocephalus is very heartbreaking.

I will keep you guys and Haans in my thoughts. 

And can I ask, out of curiosity, what did they put him on? Prednisone or the omeprazole?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is not really comparable but as someone who has dealt with constant migraines, cluster headaches, and sinus infections due to small sinus cavities, deformed ear canals, and constantly swelling blood vessels in my head, I would have to think very long and hard about the type of pain and the frequency of the pain the pup may endure. I just finally got a headache under control that lasted over a week and caused me to miss multiple days of work due to the dizziness and nausea (not to mention pain in the head). It disrupts my entire life and then I start to feel very down and depressed on top of the pain and sickness. I'm very, very empathetic to any person or animal that has any sort of pain in their head, especially if it impacts daily life and ability to cope with living normally.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

And I also just want to mention, the OP asked if 'someone else who had a puppy with hydrocephalus could chime in on whether it would be a good idea to seek treatment', in which I did, but my experience on this issue that i have personally gone through with a puppy has been ignored. 

I can only hope the OP takes into account my experience and information regarding this.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

This is a story about a puppy named Babylove who had Hydrocephalus and had surgery done. I came across this a while ago when I was researching hydrocephalus. This just goes to show how heartbreaking and incurable hydrocephalus is. I am assuming baby love acquired meningitis/sepsis from the second shunt surgery....so PLEASE take into account all possibilities. Please.

Hydrocephalus in Pets


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I live in pain most of the time for reasons that I don't care to discuss on this board. I guess I should have euthanized myself. I have friends that are disabled and whose quality of life some here would not rate as good. They have their bad days but they don't think of killing themselves because of bad days. But yes, they have plenty of "friends" who think that their quality of life is such that they should be better off dead. And they like to make that opinion known to the disabled person. 

My mother got sick a couple of months ago. Some of the doctors who saw her felt that I should let her die because of "quality of life". And some of my "friends" and relatives kept telling me that I should let her die because she is old and it was better for her. Luckily, I was able to find physicians who cared enough to treat her. She got better within a week, was able to get home and have a good quality of life for months now. She may have months to go or years, nobody knows. But she would be dead now and I would not have celebrated her birthday today, if I listened to those who feel that not "everything" has to live. To my mother her life is worth it and she is happy to be alive and I am happy to have her too. And those who were telling me that she is better off dead (one of them rushed to steal her stuff while she was at the hospital, because she won't need it anyway) are no longer welcome in our lives. 

In life and death situations you can see who your true friends are.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

gsdlover91 said:


> And I also just want to mention, the OP asked if 'someone else who had a puppy with hydrocephalus could chime in on whether it would be a good idea to seek treatment', in which I did, but my experience on this issue that i have personally gone through with a puppy has been ignored.
> 
> I can only hope the OP takes into account my experience and information regarding this.


Well first let me be clear here. I'm not going to jump on any one that has been through a pet illness. 

Parvo and DM are my stories. People reach out to seek others experience, it's what we do. 

Having said that you don't "know" your story has been ignored?? I'm sure it weights into there decision making process. When we share our personal pet stories that's kinda the point...to help people understand what they are looking at.

If people offering similar experiences or support, were the only ones chiming in, this thread would have a lot fewer pages!

Some folks have a strong attraction to the under pup, that could be any of us at any given time. That's what makes us human!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

RebelGSD said:


> I live in pain most of the time for reasons that I don't care to discuss on this board. I guess I should have euthanized myself. I have friends that are disabled and whose quality of life some here would not rate as good. They have their bad days but they don't think of killing themselves because of bad days. But yes, they have plenty of "friends" who think that their quality of life is such that they should be better off dead. And they like to make that opinion known to the disabled person.
> 
> My mother got sick a couple of months ago. Some of the doctors who saw her felt that I should let her die because of "quality of life". And some of my "friends" and relatives kept telling me that I should let her die because she is old and it was better for her. Luckily, I was able to find physicians who cared enough to treat her. She got better within a week, was able to get home and have a good quality of life for months now. She may have months to go or years, nobody knows. But she would be dead now and I would not have celebrated her birthday today, if I listened to those who feel that not "everything" has to live. To my mother her life is worth it and she is happy to be alive and I am happy to have her too. And those who were telling me that she is better off dead (one of them rushed to steal her stuff while she was at the hospital, because she won't need it anyway) are no longer welcome in our lives.
> 
> In life and death situations you can see who your true friends are.


I too live in constant pain BUT I have the ability to inform those around me as such. I also have the ability to end my life if wanted. There is no comparing dogs to human beings IMO.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

This is why animals have owners who know and love them and have their best interest in mind, as well as veterinarians who care for them, have experience with animal pain and suffering, and advise owners. Owners may ask for input, take it into account, but ultimately the choices are their decision. And yes, to humans it happens too that they are not in the condition to communicate - this is when their loved ones make decisions for them.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

"And can I ask, out of curiosity, what did they put him on? Prednisone or the omeprazole?"

The doctor put Haans on both. The steroid reduces swelling and the omeprazole is pulling off the fluid.

My wife and I are taking everyone's stories and opinions into consideration. If Haans hasn't been showing signs of improvment, then he would be put down already. Even today he seems to be doing better.

Sweeping my tile floor today, he chased the broom all over the place, pouncing, growling and pawing at it. When I got out of bed to go and greet him, his tail began to wag ferociously, he pawed at my face, and then did the happy prancing which we see puppy's do when they are excited. Each day he circles less and less, and even seems to be able to see better.

At this point, why would I put him to sleep? He is showing all the signs of a happy puppy. He continues to get better (though I admit the medication is going to damage him if kept on it for too long). Even if this only lasts for a week, its a week he wouldn't have otherwise.

As I said before, I really appreciate all the feedback everyone has provided and continue to provide.

*gsdlover91*, I'm truly sorry your puppy with hydro had to be put down. Your warning that he will get worse has not been ignored, and we are watching him closely for signs that he is getting worse. If that time comes, we will be ready to make the right decision.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

As long as the animal is not SUFFERING (in pain) why not continue with the treatment and see if it works?

Yes, there are chances that down the road things could take a turn for the worse and the puppy would need to be euthanized ... but right NOW the pup seems to be doing fine.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lauri, if one is willing and the puppy isn't suffering, I say kudo's to you!


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

The prednisone is what is lessening the symptoms. 

I know this because that's what Akira was on, and she was doing 100X better on it.

As soon as I weaned her off, her symptoms came back, except way worse, which is when I had to put her down. 

The problem with prednisone, is that long term use causes a lot of problems.


Anyway, glad to hear he's on both, I didnt try the omeprazole with her, but I know it has been shown to reduce CSF production, oddly.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

gsdlover91 said:


> The problem with prednisone, is that long term use causes a lot of problems.


Prednisilone may be easier to process and I would ask about it. Prednisolone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You can give milk thistle to support the liver and I am sure he is drinking and peeing. I am betting that there are other things that might help to mitigate the negatives on the system. 

There are people who have to be on steroids and similar at immunosuppressant doses (I am going to guess he's not at that high a dose). There is a dog I know of who is so allergic to so many things (and isn't a GSD!) that the only way she can have quality of life is to take pred year round. Her people recognize that this could diminish the length of time she is with them, but she does flyball, agility and therapy work - her quality of life is incredible. If they didn't give her the pred, she would not be here. 

I know of a GSD who had basically COPD - he saw my vet - I met the family there as their vet had said PTS. My vet did quick xrays, and put him on pred and another med. That family had their dog for well over a year, at a very high quality of life, before the lung disease progressed. So while the pred acts in some bad ways sometimes, what you get can outweigh any of that. 

I just like to put this info out there as people read this thread so that they don't think that pred is a bad med.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

prednisone is a horrible drug 
i realize some dogs need it 
but if at all possible it should be avoided
side effects from a google search

Dogs that get prednisone as a short term treatment (i.e. 1 to 4 weeks) may not experience any side effects. However, if the treatment is lengthy, prednisone may cause a number of side effects, including:
Immunity suppression, which makes the dog more susceptible to infections; the immune system cannot protect the dog, so his health must be carefully monitored and secondary diseases must be treated as soon as they occur
Increased appetite, that leads to weight gain
Increased thirst and more frequent urination
Water retention, caused by the sodium in the salt, in case the dog has a diet rich in salts
Fluid in the stomach
Myocardial arrest
Oily skin, which may be due to hormonal imbalance
Coarse hair, unhealthy looking coat
Sudden aggressiveness
Irritability
Anxiety
Depression
Nausea
Kidney problems
Ulcers, stomach problems
Colitis
Diabetes mellitus
Hypertension


Read more: Prednisone Side Effects in Dogs 

dogs become ravenous and even develop cushings disease
they drink water excessively and pee constantly 
which i noticed hanns was doing in the video
thats a side effect 
yes it can safe some dogs lives 
but the side effects are nothing to poo poo
after having a dog die of autoimmune issues
and having them on pred for what remained of 
their life
i'd never use it again because the trade offs 
are too great


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## BMWHillbilly (Oct 18, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Let's see how this all shakes out - I have no idea if he's suffering with the fluid being drained. My dog was fine after her head was tapped a couple of times (not congenital, traumatic injury). It doesn't seem like it - but what do we know - we have people who have dogs with back issues, elbow and/or hip issues, seizures, or shorter term things like those who have had bloat surgeries, etc, and there is going to be pain and discomfort - I would hope that our goal is not to never have our animals feel any pain or we will put them down, because they are an organism that is going to experience that at some point.
> 
> I do know for myself, having a normal dog is not my goal - I have a dog who died as a puppy during surgery, was brought back after losing oxygen for a period of time (found this on his paperwork when I fostered him). He has poor vision, vertigo, and is delayed intellectually in many ways but is the most loving and happy creature in the world - helping me shovel the sidewalk is like doggy Disney world for him. My other dog with the head injury also has difficulties but who wouldn't love a dog that is always going to be a puppy!
> 
> I knew they were not typical when adopting both these dogs, and it seems like Haans' family knows that they may have a dog that is delayed. But really I put my money on a GSD with 10% brain function over most dogs anyway!


Most excellent post! 

Sending prayers for lil Haans.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Waiting for a Haans update!

Hope he is still fighting and has a will to live!


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Haans is doing better than ever. I'll post another video later in the day if I get the chance.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Awesome news! Can't wait to see the new video.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

KyleKidd said:


> Haans is doing better than ever. I'll post another video later in the day if I get the chance.


Good to hear!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

That's great news!


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm happy for the good news. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Sorry it took so long to get back to you guys. Here is a video my Wife took today while I was mopping.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10153110619084625&l=1153346616949457547

And she made Haans his own facebook. He has tons of video and pictures there. And the most recent status updates.

**** Removed by ADMIN - please share Haans updates directly here and not link other web pages with fundraising requests ****


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh what a cutie!


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## Jaamsb (Apr 2, 2014)

I want to thank each and every person who has commented on this subject. My little Twilah was confirmed with hydrocephalus today. My heart is broken and the tears are flowing but ultimately my heart has to be geared not toward my own feelings which can be selfish at times. But instead towards little Twilah. I have decided that she will remain here at home with her mother and sibling until the time comes that I see it is affecting her and her quality if life. Until that day comes I will show her what it means to be loved just as I did the day she came into this world.


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## Jaamsb (Apr 2, 2014)

*Twilah*

My little Twilah puppy passed away today from hydrocephalus. She went downhill very quickly, much quicker than I ever expected. My heart is broke, but my only console is that she is at peace. She was only 6 weeks old. She went from a functional pup on Wednesday at her 6 week check up, to today where she had lost her gait and partial use if back legs. She was totally blind, had started to shake, and she became dehydrated. Her kidneys were ****ting down, she refused to nurse or drink water. I tried my best to bottle feed her fluids but she rejected them. Her howl became very low and she sounded like the saddest creature I'd ever heard. My how 6 short weeks can feel like a lifetime.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am so sorry, such a short life for the little angel. Run free puppy, I am sorry for your loss.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

Very sorry to hear about Twilah =(

I just wanted to give an update on Haans. He is doing so amazingly well. A lot has happened over the last year or so, but Haans's health has continued to improve.

He has been super playful, affectionate, and has even been semi-potty trained! He now goes to the door when he needs to go out, and will wait until we come let him out. We gave him the nickname of Burger. So he now recognizes being called Haans-Burger =P

The vet put him on steroids and omeprizal, but we took him off both early this summer. A week after he went off the drugs, all his puppy fur began falling out and he looked mangy. But it was just his puppy fur falling out and his adult fur growing in. He now has a full coat of adult fur! The steroids were inhibiting its growth.

Here is a video I just took: http://youtu.be/Xlulfjdxvzs


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

So very awesome to hear that Haans is still with us and thriving!!!!!!!!!

I am so happy you didn't give up on him! :wub:


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

That's wonderful news!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Thanks for the update! He is one lucky pup that you have him. He looks happy and well.


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## KyleKidd (Jan 13, 2014)

We're very lucky to have him. He's amazing.


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