# Not sure about trainers



## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

We have a 6 mos old female pup. We've had her since she was 8 weeks old and I'm completely smitten. She's been such a wonderful addition to the family.

I set out soon after she got home to find training. Here has been our experience followed by my concerns and questions.

First trainer, 6 sessions (3 private and 3 group) at 3.5 mos old

Private sessions
1st session: played to and fro.
Trainor introduced her to prong
Walked the pup with prong trainer showed how he popped the collar
2nd session walked with prong and I showed how she could sit. Trainer taught down.
3rd session: walked pup with prong

Group sessions (with 1 other pup and trainers dog)
1st session: walked dogs 1 mile, came in and placed dogs in down for remainder of session, putting them back in down when they'd rise.
2nd session: walked a mile. My pup was last in 3 dog line and was constantly pulling and whining to meet the other dogs. Trainer abruptly change direction (going complete opposite direction) with prong. He yanked fairly hard and said that my pup had high pain tolerance and when she wouldn't comply he yanked in the opposite direction several more times. It never changed my pups behaviour of pulling toward dogs in front of her.

3rd session: walked a mile pup still pulling and whining to greet other dogs in front. Pup barks through entire indoor session as well which included ling down stays and sit/comes. Trainer said GSDs are vocal some more than others.

Next tried PO trainer (5.5 months)

I let trainer know I didn't think pup cared much for food rewards. Does like certain toys, so she does some sits with toy after trainer agrees food drive isn't strong. Later decides that I should feed meals as rewards.

I was/am about worried about this because pup isn't a strong eater. The vet checked her out and said as long as she was gaining growth and weight on curve then don't worry but if she starts losing we will revisit and add strategies to help her be more motivated.(we add a raw egg once a week, chicken once a day and cheese every other day to keep interest)

Since feeding meals as rewards, I feel like I have to get command across then convince her to eat the reward. More time spent convincing than training
So now she's lost a couple lbs. I mentioned the weight loss to the trainer bit she said she's not worried because pup was finicky to begin with and she won't starve herself. I know she won't starve herself but I feel like nutrients are super important in that critical first year growth.

Also (it's only been two weeks) but pup often ignores me during training. I mentioned this to the trainer and she said it's me that she doesn't think the pup would do that to her. Okay, well I hope not because you're the professional. She wants to take over at a public place and me sit in the car and watch how she does it. How will I hear what she's saying?

I'm so confused and worried my pup is too because at this point I have no confidence in anything I do. We are very rural and there aren't more trainers in our area. There is big city 2.5 hours away but I would be hard pressed to be able to swing that. 

I just want my pup to be happy, healthy and confident.

I've taught her a couple of things on my own that I've learned here like sit, watch me, down, stay and come using flirt pole, balls and hide and go seek. Also, we play the touch game I learned here. And she's learned leave it with the kitties but only on leash.

I just don't know how to extend sit/stays, down/stays, and focus nor how to train with any type of distraction past those I create like moving the flirt pole, squeaking a toy etc.

Outside of commands my concerns are:
She pulls toward people, cats and dogs on leash in a hey can I lick you all over kind of way. She mouths my hands all the time when petting (tried YIPES, and ignoring as well as no bite firm) jumps on people when they arrive non aggressive all way to friendly.

Ok sorry to unload but I'm so frustrated and worried that I'm going to mess her up. Are either of these training methods indicative of how the process is? I just don't know. I do know I find myself very frustrated with the PO process. Nut I'm willing to keep trying if it's me screwing up so badly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Personally I would think that if you've paid someone and followed there instructions properly?? You should "expect" better results than you've seen?? But whatever you can do better ... you just need to know where to go. 

And side note I do belive at six months a one mile walk is way to much for a puppy's growing bones and joints?? 

A couple points the people coming over thing and the dog acting "nutty??" Train "The Place Command" dog/puppy goes in "Place" and company ignores her your job to see that they do. A lot of the issues you mentioned on training with distractions etc ... "Train Place" you'll use a drag leash to guide the dog from "Place Mat to Place Mat." She will learn to listen and come when recalled as a byproduct. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

And your dog does need to be able to walk on a leash properly before you can start to work on other walk issues. See here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8044913-post7.html

Personally I'm more of a Slip Lead Leash guy myself but apparently no one does that. 

When you click on the links ... you'll see I'm really not as "brief" as it would at first appear. So ask questions and welcome aboard.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh my. Sounds like you went from one extreme to the other and neither trainer is balanced.

Can I ask where you live? I'm sure someone can suggest a good trainer close to you?


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Oops I noticed a typo in first post. I live about 1.5 hours from ATL. A little longer with traffic. It's just an area/ community outside of Madison.

I'll gladly go back to either trainer (still have lessons scheduled with 2nd one) if either method is the norm for their type of training and I'm just not understanding the process. I mean, is jerking the dog in the complete opposite direction while walking with prong the norm? Should this elicit numerous yelps from pup? I know using meals as rewards instead of bowl feeds is a tool but should it persist if the puppy has lost weight since starting and I have to convince pup to take the reward?

I'm going to look through all the videos in the links posted. Is it unheard of or frowned upon to learn how to operate a prong through videos? I'm sure there are ones that teach how to transition off too, right? I mean when they are trained do you move to a flat collar or is the prong always used when walking?

Any other video series that would be beneficial? Preferably that go from basic to extending basic like extending stays, focus etc. 

Sorry if I'm so annoyingly full of questions but I truly truly want to be the best I can be at this for my girl! She makes me so happy and has been such a joy (okay well mostly when I'm not in tears with frustration because I know I'm not getting through but I do realize it's my fault and not hers!)

I'm going to work on Place but here's another question. Is there a place in multiple areas? Do I purchase and place cots in each area? How does place work while in the park or is it not used in that way to calm the dog when people pass?


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

_I'll gladly go back to either trainer (still have lessons scheduled with 2nd one) if either method is the norm for their type of training and I'm just not understanding the process. _Very good observation regarding yourself. Understanding the process is in my opinion the most important thing regarding training your puppy. If you do not buy in to the method, success may be difficult to achieve.

_I mean, is jerking the dog in the complete opposite direction while walking with prong the norm? _ It can be to help the dog understand to focus on you and where you are walking. I work correction-reward with my dogs all the time. Again, understanding the process and making sure your puppy knows what you want and why the correction, very important. Rewards for doing in right, the single most important thing. 

_Should this elicit numerous yelps from pup?_ Again, it can be, there is a difference between abuse and correction. At your puppy's age, I may be working on small thing for a short time that require correction but have a high success rate so the rewards are frequent. The corrections are to help get to the rewards.

_I know using meals as rewards instead of bowl feeds is a tool but should it persist if the puppy has lost weight since starting and I have to convince pup to take the reward? _I do not use meals as rewards.

_I'm going to look through all the videos in the links posted. Is it unheard of or frowned upon to learn how to operate a prong through videos? I'm sure there are ones that teach how to transition off too, right? I mean when they are trained do you move to a flat collar or is the prong always used when walking?_ I train all my dogs with prong collars, but work them off leash also. My goal is to not require a leash to control my dogs.

Just a suggestion, you might want to sit down and have a talk with both trainers to let them know your concerns and hesitations regarding their methods. Let them drill down and explain to you what they really are teaching. Do not be afraid to ask questions, (make a list and bring it with you so you do not forget anything). A good trainer will have no issue explaining methods and results with you. The more you buy in, the better the results will be.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Making a 3 month old yelp with a prong correction, really? No wonder your dog does not want to engage during training. Not your fault, but I sure wouldn't go back to that trainer. I don't think you screwed up but there is absolutely nothing you said about trainer #1 that gives me any confidence. And I don't think it is a stretch to say this is why your pup is ignoring you. At that age, you should be the most fun, most rewarding, and most safe thing in your pup's world and that trainer made you the opposite of that.

How are you trying to convince the pup to take the food..because that may be making it worse. Shoving food at it will make it not want to eat.

Mine was not super into food and doing food chase rewards ala Michael Ellis helped a lot. Also teaching to push into hand while luring (Ellis), got him really turned onto the food.

Trainer #2! Doesn't sound too hot either


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If your pup is ignoring you, going to a public place is not going to help. More distractions, work on getting her attention in a calm quiet place. Like your front yard. Then try again by your mailbox. Ect. 

I wouldn't be doing anything too much with long stays, I would be working on exciting, fun engagement work. If you want videos look for Michael Ellis or Forrest Micke


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Patience and consistency. It's going to take a long time for your puppy to mature. Mine still does behaviors you described and she's 1. It's gotten a whole lot better. A focused heel helps a lot in keeping the pups attention on you. The duration will be short so time it as you're passing other animals or people she may be drawn to. Teach leave it with a squirt bottle in the house or pinch collar outside. I started with a pinch collar around 4-5 months old and an e collar around 7 months old. Both are good tools if used properly. Of course, positive reinforcement, food and toy rewards are most desirable if they get you the behavior you want. I too fed my pup by hand instead of bowl a lot to try to get her to understand I'm the most important thing in the world to her. 
Sounds like you're doing the right things. You have a puppy that's very interested in the world. It'll get better but it'll take time. Just keep trying to redirect her focus on you. It'll happen; she's a gsd.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Annachi said:


> I'll gladly go back to either trainer (still have lessons scheduled with 2nd one) if either method is the norm for their type of training and I'm just not understanding the process. I mean, is jerking the dog in the complete opposite direction while walking with prong the norm?
> Should this elicit numerous yelps from pup?


 Well, I'm a SLL guy myself and I've trained dogs to walk properly in a very short period time without illisting a single yelp. :laugh2: 

Although in "retro spec" the "Big headed" pitty I worked with for a little bit would have been a good "Prong Collar" candidate?? But ... I digress. 

As I understand the "process" ... once the dog is "properly conditioned" to the "Prong Collar." That "yelp" should only need to happen once. If it's happening again and again ... then "something" is "not" right and the dog does not "understand" what is required of him???

The "rapid" change of direction thing has a rather long "Prong Free" history ... but that's another tangent.

An approach you "may' find useful "Prong" or not can be found here:









The exact same thing can be done with any "proper tool" a regular collar and flat leash a Slip Lead Leash and of course a "Prong Collar." The primary advantage of a "Prong Collar" when used properly, is it takes less user "input" to deliver a "Slight Tug Sideways" correction. 



Annachi said:


> I know using meals as rewards instead of bowl feeds is a tool but should it persist if the puppy has lost weight since starting and I have to convince pup to take the reward?


LOL .... yessss .... late to the party. I'll just say for "this" I use neither "treats" or "food" ... and let it go at that. 

Two trainers at once?? That strikes me as a bit ... "extreme???" All the trainers I source work with dogs with "serious" freaking issues as well as "normal family pets." And they "All" train the "Place Command." If your talking to them and trying to decide?? I'd ask them if they "Train Place??" If they have no idea what your talking about or explain why they don't "need" to .. I'd say ... you know which one to "eliminate" from "further" consideration. But you know ... that's just "me." >


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Wow thanks so much for all the advice! You don't know how it has lifted my spirits!



> Just a suggestion, you might want to sit down and have a talk with both trainers to let them know your concerns and hesitations regarding their methods. Let them drill down and explain to you what they really are teaching. Do not be afraid to ask questions, (make a list and bring it with you so you do not forget anything). A good trainer will have no issue explaining methods and results with you.


This first trainer was a 6 session deal for spring. He won't have another class suited for my pup until winter maybe spring.(Right now he's doing advanced stuff for sports or tracking or something).

I have had this conversation with the 2nd trainer at the first session. But maybe revisiting the issue may be appropriate. Also, I may need to really search myself self to see if I am totally buying in to PO training. I stay so frustrated.



> How are you trying to convince the pup to take the food..because that may be making it worse. Shoving food at it will make it not want to eat.


We'll that helps because I do try to get her to sniff it! When she was younger I would handheld because she wouldn't be eager (we had scheduled feedings not free feeds) and she would eat from it fine then. I may have to ditch this meals/rewards thing though because the weight loss makes me antsy. It's probs PTSD because I have a chronically I'll kid (grown now) that has been FTT a couple times and ended up on enteral feeds. I've been inundated with growth/nutrition info for a number of years and it's probably bleeding over!



> Patience and consistency. It's going to take a long time for your puppy to mature. Mine still does behaviors you described and she's 1. It's gotten a whole lot better.


This makes me feel netter. I would like to know where my and her are at on the spectum (I know it can vary greatly) of what she should be able to do and where I could be pushing to hard.



> Two trainers at once?? That strikes me as a bit ... "extreme???" All the trainers I source work with dogs with "serious" freaking issues as well as "normal family pets." And they "All" train the "Place Command." If your talking to them and trying to decide?? I'd ask them if they "Train Place??" If they have no idea what your talking about or explain why they don't "need" to .. I'd say ... you know which one to "eliminate" from "further" consideration.


No. We first used the 1st trainer at 3.5 months, 6 sessions but he didn't have an open class to further it. So we started with the 2nd trainer 2 weeks ago. So wasn't by choice really.

I'm going to check out the video you guys suggested by Ellis. And The links and video you all posted thanks again! This forum is awesome!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I did that. I leaned Koehler as a child and didn't realize methods had changed. We lost an elderly GSD when I got into rescue and ended up in a PO class with no idea what they were taking about. It was terrible and nearly ruined the fear based aggressive male. Then I ended up keeping a rescue puppy and tried PO. It was Ok but I was never able to wean the dog off treats. We get good results without food but not great.

I decided the problem with all these classes is that they are one size fits all and most group trainers don't understand drivey working dogs. Our last obedience trainer even said he has never had good luck training working breeds and he is very experienced. His class was OK, with my puppy but it didn't move fast enough and there was too much down time. My boy kept getting himself into trouble because as someone here told me, the class was "as boring as dirt."

German Shepherd puppies need to be kept busy and engaged. I work with a private trainer now who keeps the dog busy for the entire session. My dog is resistant so an active session not only teaches him, as he gets tired, he becomes more open to learning. You have a young puppy. You need to find training you understand and like that engages the dog and teaches her to think. Place is a command to teach your dog to settle, calm and stay out of your way. It's not a panacea or a substitute for obedience training.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Place is a command to teach your dog to settle, calm and stay out of your way. It's not a panacea or a substitute for obedience training.


In "addition" to not "instead" of ... just saying.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Please do not discard any trainer based on the trainer not teaching one specific trick or another. Find somebody that is experienced with the breed that will draw on a variety of tools to address your dog's specific needs.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Annachi said:


> Wow thanks so much for all the advice! You don't know how it has lifted my spirits!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Go with your gut. I let my trainer push my pup too hard once (pup didn't understand) and I put a stop to that right away. Some pups are more obedient, be glad you don't have a dud. Some handlers/trainers are more experienced. If you feel like you're pushing too hard and the pup doesn't understand, back off a bit and keep your distance from things she is lunging towards. Sounds like you and your pup will be just fine. Keep working on down/stay. If it's really important, give her a leash pop down. She's old enough for that now. At home, teach her to go to her spot, down/stay and reward.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

The first trainer we went too grew up with GSDs and has one now. 

The second works with all types I suppose but didn't seem overly knowledgeable about GSDs. I asked if the flirt pole would be okay for the pup's joints(jumping and such) with them being prone to hip issues. She said she thought she'd heard that before but the pup should be fine. I decided not to do a lot of up in the air play mostly on the ground wiggling and moving with the flirt pole, just as a precaution. 

Although it seems I may have been doing my own damage walking her a 1/2 mile out then a 1/2 mile back. I didn't know that was too much so thanks to the poster that mentioned it! I'll definitely scale it back!

Another question, should the pup be free to cross over sides on leash? The trainer said that stopping and sniffing or checking out ditches is fine just give them time and they come back and I give the praise marker and move forward again. If they are taking an inordinate amount of time or don't respond throw some treats on the ground and draw their attention to it. This is severely crippling our walk since now we stop and smell everything. And throwing treats on the ground hasn't really worked since she really isn't food motivated. I have brought a tug toy and she will respond to that immediately bit were still stopping every 1.5 minutes.

Not at all how she was on the prong. She just walked along she might sniff the pavement and every so often in front of a field I'd say stop then sniff and lead her to just, you know, check it all out. I only had problems of her pulling toward people or other dogs on the prong(not near as much as with harness though) but no issues when there are no distractions. I also treat often when she carries out leave it with the cats when walking or immediately commences walking when I say walk after her allowed sniff session. 

Just of I post something I'm doing that is appallingly wrong and will create more problems later. Please tell me because I'm hear to learn and give my pup a great life!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Boy, I don't like either trainer. The first is old style, dominance focused, quick results but likely at the cost of a trusting relationship. The second seems a bit silly with the focus on food. Neither assessing this unique dog and working from there it seems.

You sound like you really care and want to do well. I wonder if you could contact some IPO/Schutzhund clubs in Atlanta and asking for trainer recommendations near you. 

I can't tell how old your dog is but I would suggest slowing down, make things fun, and through in a bit of simple obedience... sit, down, heel and stay but only for a few seconds and then build from there. And if the toy works to motivate her that is excellent. So "sit", mark it with a clicker, voice like "yes" or "nice" and reward with fun toy play. Then sit, then down... play play play. Make it simple.

Prong collars have their place but this puppy has to trust you with all its heart. I would avoid prongs on young puppies. 

I went through three trainers that ranged from useless to mediocre until I struck gold. I can't imagine where I would be without the trainer I finally found through an obscure contact on Facebook.

Don't give up and remember to have fun. Your puppy might be showing some stress (ignoring) because she perceives your confusion and anxiety.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

> Boy, I don't like either trainer. The first is old style, dominance focused, quick results but likely at the cost of a trusting relationship. The second seems a bit silly with the focus on food. Neither assessing this unique dog and working from there it seems.


This is exactly how I feel. Just feel like we need the middle between those two trainers, like a good balance.

I can tell that my pup is eager when we play certain games like touch. She absolutely revels in the praise during that game. Also does so well with watch me, which I ask for before releasing balls (sit first then watch me), going through doors, gates, etc. I hadon't her sitting and waiting before meals too before the trainer wanted us to change to hand fed meals as reward.

I've finally got the house settled and I'm going to go through all the videos mentioned and links. I really appreciate all the support!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Annachi said:


> > Boy, I don't like either trainer. The first is old style, dominance focused, quick results but likely at the cost of a trusting relationship. The second seems a bit silly with the focus on food. Neither assessing this unique dog and working from there it seems.
> 
> 
> This is exactly how I feel. Just feel like we need the middle between those two trainers, like a good balance.
> ...


See this I like! This sounds like you have engaged the puppy. We can't train until we teach the puppy how to learn. How about starting to bring some if this good stuff into your daily walks? When you walk, stop. Wait for her to look at you and then praise her up. Build on that, make her look longer, wait for her to come back closer to you. Build on that relationship and teach her that trying new things gets a reward. 

You have a young dog, she is growing and learning and building a foundation. So make it solid. 

I personally prefer lots of positive at this age and then transition to more balanced as they get older and understand what I am asking and can handle more pressure. 

I would not go back to the trainer that put a prong on a 12 week old pup and did quick direction changes with corrections. Sorry. That's my personal preference. I am not a fan of correcting a puppy for something they haven't yet learned.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Someone else said this and I want to say it also: Trust your gut and what your pup is telling you. She is communicating with you. Pay attention to her signals.

Just because a trainer says you should throw treats to get her walking again, doesn't mean you have to. 

I think you are doing a good job at laying down the foundations. It's the countless repetitions of the commands over months in different environments over time. It sounds like you know your girl and what motivates her. Stay confident with what you know. Work with it. I'm sure you did this while raising your children so do the same with her: :smile2:

Your discription of using the flirt pole and teaching the leave it command is great. I taught it to my boy and honestly, I feel that it was a great way to teach him self discipline. That self discipline will spill over to other situations. Plus it built excited anticipation and enthusiasm into the game. Just keep the flirt on the ground as you said and avoid sharp turns with it.

I think the biggest hurdle is you finding a trainer who is willing to listen to you and how you have achieved the sit, down, leave it. And help you expand on the skills you already have and utilizing the methods you used to achieve it.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Yikes, sorry you are hitting dead ends. Wish you were near me so I could help you out. This is a 4 month old puppy I trained who had zero attention or impulse control before training. Fully remote collar trained attention method, no corrections, If you are interested in this method send me a PM.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Yikes, sorry you are hitting dead ends. Wish you were near me so I could help you out. This is a 4 month old puppy I trained who had zero attention or impulse control before training. Fully remote collar trained attention method, no corrections, If you are interested in this method send me a PM.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD6UvSs2Qug


Whaaaaatttt??? A remote collar/electronic collar is a correction or what is called positive punishment in operant conditioning language. Adding a negative. This is okay when it is part of a whole training system that uses all quadrants of the system. The OP needs to regroup and learn what motivates this puppy first. She is on the right track with the toy. Focus on that OP to invest in a great relationship first.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Enjoy your pup, don't over do the obediance yet. Again, don't know the age but if she is less than 6 months go slowly. Also, I would feed her regularly, you don't want her loosing weight. If the toy works... stick with that and get as much out of that as you can. Toy drive will make training easy.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

DutchKarin said:


> Whaaaaatttt??? A remote collar/electronic collar is a correction or what is called positive punishment in operant conditioning language. Adding a negative. This is okay when it is part of a whole training system that uses all quadrants of the system. The OP needs to regroup and learn what motivates this puppy first. She is on the right track with the toy. Focus on that OP to invest in a great relationship first.



The remote collar is a very versatile training aid. Thinking of it as a correction/deterrant tool is very outdated thinking. The puppy in the video is food and toy motivated so i incorporated both in training and play and built a great bond with her in the 11 days i had her. Watch the video and tell me if you see a puppy that is shutting down or that is engaged and motivated.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Just wanted to post some pics of my sweet pup! This puppy has enriched my life so much! Ughhh I just wanna squish squish squish her!




























Well shoot anyone want to help me in posting pics?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

In the reply box, if you choose the "Go Advanced", it will take you to a reply box with more options. Click on the Paper Clip icon (paper clip, to attach a picture - get it?), and when you click on "Choose File", it will take you to your saved pictures and you can select the ones you want to attach.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Ahhh thanks I was using the pic icon in advanced mode! Thaks!


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Hmmm it shows them uploaded but doesn't display them. Oh well. 

On an unrelated note, painting a bathroom and 6 mos old GSD puppy do not mix! It's like one of those black and white comedy reels!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> The remote collar is a very versatile training aid. Thinking of it as a correction/deterrant tool is very outdated thinking. The puppy in the video is food and toy motivated so i incorporated both in training and play and built a great bond with her in the 11 days i had her. Watch the video and tell me if you see a puppy that is shutting down or that is engaged and motivated.


The question isn't whether it works at 4 months but whether it's necessary. At that age, we should all be able to train a puppy in basics without having to use a prong or an e collar. It's not whether one can but if one should. I was introduced to a prong with a 6 month old female and I liked the instant results. I also learned to use a low stim e collar for some things, but only when a dog is much older. This isn't a criticism but a difference in approaches to puppies vs mature dogs.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

My personal opinion is that e-collar is best used for punishment, when you can't get to the dog or when you need to be less personal or go high, like for car chasing. 

I believe in using a correction at a high enough level where it doesn't need to be repeated very often, generally I say around three times or less, but there are exceptions. If you develop a clear communication system with the dog, a "training language" of sorts, you don't need a bunch of tools. I am not against tools, not at all, but I think the whole point of tools is to get to the "tool-less" point with the dog. 

If a trainer has to both hold and use an e-collar constantly while working a dog in attention only, then I see it as a crutch. I know how low-level e-collar is used, I totally understand the process. 

But I think low-level e-collar is rather useless, and the "no corrections" mantra is only there to placate the public's fancies, as there are better and less nagging ways to get results, particularly with puppies.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> My personal opinion is that e-collar is best used for punishment, when you can't get to the dog or when you need to be less personal or go high, like for car chasing.
> 
> I believe in using a correction at a high enough level where it doesn't need to be repeated very often, generally I say around three times or less, but there are exceptions. If you develop a clear communication system with the dog, a "training language" of sorts, you don't need a bunch of tools. I am not against tools, not at all, but I think the whole point of tools is to get to the "tool-less" point with the dog.
> 
> ...


The low stim collar method gets to the point where the dog doesn't need any tools. One of the experienced professional trainers here stated it very well, saying they could use an enormous jerk on a prong or a simple stim and get the exact same result. The stim is less intrusive and less harmful to a dog that only responds to a strong physical correction. 

My take on training which I'm sure some here will disagree with is that you have to look at the dog and the owner, then choose the method that works the best with the least amount of stress or disruption to the dog's natural temperament. For some dogs, that is a treat or a toy, for others, a flat buckle collar and a leash. If a dog and owner can only get desired results with an e collar, it's not up to us to tell them they are wrong but to support their methods of choice even if we disagree.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> The low stim collar method gets to the point where the dog doesn't need any tools. One of the experienced professional trainers here stated it very well, saying they could use an enormous jerk on a prong or a simple stim and get the exact same result. The stim is less intrusive and less harmful to a dog that only responds to a strong physical correction.
> 
> My take on training which I'm sure some here will disagree with is that you have to look at the dog and the owner, then choose the method that works the best with the least amount of stress or disruption to the dog's natural temperament. For some dogs, that is a treat or a toy, for others, a flat buckle collar and a leash. If a dog and owner can only get desired results with an e collar, it's not up to us to tell them they are wrong but to support their methods of choice even if we disagree.


And then there are some dogs that'll just run through the stim if they're in high drive, argh


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ausland- that is my point, and that is where low "stim" fails. And fails miserably.

A professional trainer can tell me anything they want about low-stim. 

That's fine. All professional really means is they are getting paid. It does not denote skill, or even successful training. 

You can do a lot with low level stimulation. But you can not do everything. If you are fine with nagging the animal, fine. But if you want to actually train your dog to an "operant" level, then you need to go to levels where you can remove the e-collar or other tool....

9:50 in the following clip.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OK I am a disagree-er. I do not think it is up to me to support someone in using an e collar on a 4 month old. My response to that would be to warn them of the potential fallout and say I think there are way safer ways to accomplish anything you need to accomplish with a puppy.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> OK I am a disagree-er. I do not think it is up to me to support someone in using an e collar on a 4 month old. My response to that would be to warn them of the potential fallout and say I think there are way safer ways to accomplish anything you need to accomplish with a puppy.


I didn't say on a 4 month old, if you are talking to me. I specifically said earlier not that young. But I'm not going to write off any method just because I don't care for it. I personally use food on a very limited basis and don't like it. I respect others who swear by it. I don't care for PO at all, and I would never recommend it, but I won't criticize anyone who uses it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Muskeg, everyone has their own special methods, and they all love to criticize the methods they don't care for. The point of all training should be to eventually train the dog to work without the training tools. I think we can all agree on that much. 

All I can say is that I've tried just about every type of training methods over the years with different dogs, and some methods always work better than others. I've only had one dog that could have been trained with just about any method and been proofed on everything. In fact, the dog was, using no treats ever, no PO, nothing but a leash and a choke chain. The dog was part German Shepherd, and as a puppy, quite drivey, but matured into a very easy, mellow CP type dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A friend pointed out that people don't like e collars for a lot of reasons. I acknowledge that. I don't particularly like them, I'm just saying that for some dogs, an e collar can mean the difference between being able to train a dog or not, being able to proof a dog or not, being able to keep a dog or not. Like any tool, it needs to be used properly and safely. Even when I have needed to use an ecollar, I also use other collars, depending on the task and how resistant the dog is. I have also used food for certain rote behaviors, like sitting and lying down. It works well enough. And for crate training. But I've found food useless in motivating my dogs to heel properly, for example.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> I didn't say on a 4 month old, if you are talking to me. I specifically said earlier not that young. But I'm not going to write off any method just because I don't care for it. I personally use food on a very limited basis and don't like it. I respect others who swear by it. I don't care for PO at all, and I would never recommend it, but I won't criticize anyone who uses it.


Fair enough. Except for the age I basically agree with what you said. I like e collars


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> A friend pointed out that people don't like e collars for a lot of reasons. I acknowledge that. I don't particularly like them, I'm just saying that for some dogs, an e collar can mean the difference between being able to train a dog or not, being able to proof a dog or not, being able to keep a dog or not. Like any tool, it needs to be used properly and safely. Even when I have needed to use an ecollar, I also use other collars, depending on the task and how resistant the dog is. I have also used food for certain rote behaviors, like sitting and lying down. It works well enough. And for crate training. But I've found food useless in motivating my dogs to heel properly, for example.


Yes. I said on another thread...I was anti e collar until I adopted a dog who wasnt going to be helped any other way. It changed our lives, probably saved his life in a few different ways and without a doubt saved the lives of countless other animals


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Fair enough. Except for the age I basically agree with what you said. I like e collars


It's one more tool available to trainers. I like having many options, not just one. 

People also don't realize that an ecollar remote can work like a clicker if you get one that makes a click sound when pressed. I have used one with the power turned off and the dog responds to the click after being trained. The remote is much easier to use than a traditional clicker. I was using click training for a while, but the clickers I bought were all clumsy to hold and use and were inconsistent. Sometimes they clicked instantly, sometimes, there was a delay, so ultimately, useless.

I also respect that people don't use them or don't want to see them misused. In the wrong hands and used incorrectly they can be very harmful. But so can other types of collar.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> I didn't say on a 4 month old, if you are talking to me. I specifically said earlier not that young. But I'm not going to write off any method just because I don't care for it. I personally use food on a very limited basis and don't like it. I respect others who swear by it. I don't care for PO at all, and I would never recommend it, but I won't criticize anyone who uses it.


With a few exceptions, I basically agree with you here too. I found out before that I needed to have a more open mind and that is what I strive for. There are dogs and situations I have not encountered and there are dogs who just need to straighten up and keep their home by whatever method because their other options just arent too good


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> With a few exceptions, I basically agree with you here too. I found out before that I needed to have a more open mind and that is what I strive for. There are dogs and situations I have not encountered and there are dogs who just need to straighten up and keep their home by whatever method because their other options just arent too good


I've done fostering and rescuing, and I wish I knew how to use an ecollar then, because it would have saved a lot of time and money and aggravation. I mentioned here that I had one foster that chased cars. An ecollar would be an easy way to stop it if used properly with good timing. In that case, it would be used as a correction. Had I used a prong to stop chasing, I would have been correcting the dog very hard to get her attention and possibly caused harm.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

So, it's been awhile. So we had a whole "3 stoogeseque" landslide of housing and health issues that really put training on the back burner, money and time wise.

This is what I know- she knows sit, she knows come here, she knows down, stay to the point of moving a say 250 ft away in yard and for short spurts of out of sight in the house. She also does this off leash thing I call "with me" where from the sitting position I say "with me" and start walking, she will walk beside me looking up at me the length of the yard. Watch me she has for a few seconds at a time.

But here's the thing, it's now all treat dependent. She wasn't big on treats til I discovered baby Swiss. Now she'll do what ever for a treat. But, she absolutely knows when the treat pouch has treats and when it doesn't. Also, I don't want to spend my life with this pouch attached to my hip.

Her issues are she is extremely excitable (happy) to see people (come to the house) or those that stop us in the park (more for people she knows though like my college age daughter or son or my Mom or even the lawn maintenence man). She's extremely excitable (happy) when she sees another dog (like at the park or on neighborhood walks on leash- lots of leash pulling)

The prong doesn't phase her on walks, she doesn't yelp or correct if she's pulling and you command and/or tap the leash, even hard. She will pull with all she has if she sees another dog up the road walking or coming toward her. I correct, stop, call her back to me and when she comes to me and sits we start walking again and she is immediately pulling for all she has(with prong). 

All those commands she has, she will do time and again like clock work but as soon as I try to add more than a squeaky toy distraction (other people outside her fence, different location where there are any distraction even far off) she's out. She's uber focused on whatever it is and nothing I do breaks it.

I just want so much to be able to take her out to the park or by Petsmart without it ending in a mess of frustration for us both. I know it's me but I read and watch and everyone and their brother has different ideas. I have no idea what's good info and what's bad. She learns the tasks so fast but I have no idea how to get to the proofing/distraction part. It's like we are stuck with all the commands that I can only use when there's no need for them or when we're in the house and they're not really necessary.

I can't travel 1.5 to 2 hours one way each week for training. There's just no way. The only other trainer in my area is some type of bird dog trainer and only does board and train so I'm just lost as to my next step.

Outside of the frustration of training this is the sweetest, happiest, loving dog and I absolutely adore her! She's growing so fast and it's amazing to watch! What an amazing breed these dogs are!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well after I read this post I read an ad for this book:"beyond the backyard: train your dog to listen anytime, anywhere". And the description says:

If your dog behaves perfectly in your house or when you are carrying a cookie but falls apart under distractions or in new places...." by Denise Fenzi

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy or whatever it is called has classes for all sorts of stuff and you can send in videos of yourself with your dog for critique by the instructor.

I haven't read the book or taken any classes but I did find it a little humorous that it was the next thing I saw after reading your post. Maybe it would help?

Other than that: baby steps. Out of the backyard that is. And if the whole world is so distracting maybe you need to be a little more exciting to your dog. And lastly, how much exercise does this dog get?


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If she'll do it every time in the backyard for a treat you need to start making treats intermittent. Start with skipping every third, then every other, etc.. Once she's doing well with not a treat every time you need to take her somewhere else to continue, even if you have to start with a treat each time again. But do it where there's no distractions, somewhere you can keep going back to. Follow the same regimen. Once she's good there, go to another quiet new place and so on. Once you can take her to a new quiet place and you don't have to start all over then you can begin with a place that has a few distractions. You gradually work her up to where she'll listen with the other distractions around you. But treats are not made to be used continually. Once they know the behavior, you slow down on the treats and substitute with praise.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

She has 2 to three walks a day. Morning walks and evening walks are the longest if we do a midday walk its nit as long. Our neigborhood has great walking aths and streets so we get in a mile or so morning and evening. Also, she is crazy about her "Fribee". She will chase a rolling frisbee until the cows come home so we get in some play time with that as well. We started rolling it to work up to throwing and catching it but she has no interest in having her "fribee" in the air! Haha!
Here's my procedure

Command "sit"

Her action

Immediate "yes" followed by treat

Every 3rd or so command I'll add in "good girl".

Without treats she will consistently respond to sit and often "come here". She'll even respond to a firm come here when there's a distraction like our cat on the other side of the fence occasionally.

If have try to whittle treats down on other commands but she doesn't move on to next command if there is no treat. Or its very sporadic.

We also Train with a flirt pole. She loves the flirt pole but only when we are learning a new command otherwise I feel like she'll just adjust to only doing commands to see the "weasel fly"(flirtpole)

I'll check out that book because it must be fate! Ha.

Thanks for the tips guys.

I'm not even sure how sound each command is supposed to be at 8 mos. But I think more sound than where we are.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So, a couple of things about the food: 

Don't have it in your hand when you give the command. If you do, seeing the food is part of the cue to perform and when it isn't there the cue isn't complete so the dog won't do it.

Put your bait bag on the side of your body opposite your dog (behind your back if you are calli g the dog to front, riht hip if you are practicing leftside heeling), that way the bait back on your body isn't part of the immediate picture. Next, hide some food in random locations or clip your bait bag to a fence at a height she can't reach. Give a command, give your correct marker and then rush her over for a treat from the bait bag that isn't on you (or a cup of food on a fence post ect ect), she learns she still gets rewards but not from your body and therefore will perform when she does not see/smell it on you.

Maybe experiment with charging up a toy that can be kept in your back pocket to use as a reward?

You can start to train away from home with toy/food on your person to build engagement and then transfer to storing it on thr hood of your car 10 feet away and same mark then run to reward so that your dog learns to respond without seeing/smelling the food/toy. Gradually space out length of time you ask for work between rewards

Deliver food like a slot machine: feed, feed, skip, feed, skip, skip, feed, feed, feed, skip, feed, skip, skip, feed ect

Read up on reinforcement schedules.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Not sure if your dog is ready for this yet. But we did quite a bit of food stuff and I still use it now and then. Your frisbee, tug, ball etc. can be used in another way aside from having it on you. Sometimes I put the ball in the yard or wherever, and heel around it for varying lengths of time. When she is in position or giving me the focus or whatever I want to reward, I release her to get the ball. Just a little variation.


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Still trudging along on training. It's such an iffy thing. I know it's me. I watch vids, read every thread about things on here and try to implement what I take away from each. I just don't have whatever it is to get the trick consistent without a treat nor have it performed with distraction.

I've found a board and train. It's 45 mins away. I visited the area. The guy seemed super nice and the kennel/area was really nice. He has been involved in sport like schutzhund, ipo and trains service dogs for veterans at his kennel.

I haven't found away to really check references for him other than trying to FB message members who left reviews on his page.

His prices were extremely cheap compared to large facilities I've found for board and train (those are outside my budget)

I'm just struggling with the idea of leaving her for 3 weeks. He's probably a stand up guy and does awesome work and will take my dog to a level that will only strengthen her already high confidence but I still worry. I mean she can't tell me what goes on there. If something befell her I'd be horrified and heartbroken.

Anyway, I've figured out the posting pic thingy I think so wanted to add some pics of my baby!


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

Okay not quite figured out the upload feature but here's another. She's 9.5 mos old.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Pretty girl! Are you involved in this board and train? Do you know what methods he uses? Have you asked him? Can you watch him work with training another dog to make sure you are comfortable with leaving her there?


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

I asked his technique and he has some videos of his work posted on his site.

He has stated that it can be individual to the dog and handler. He uses rewards(praise and toy not sure about food reward) he also incorporates correction most often with a flat collar. But he also said he depends on the dog and what tool best suits them. Some never need a prong some do.

He didn't seem to think my pup would require one. He said he feels like she'll do fine and the real work is training me. He has several follow up sessions and he said it's imperative I come to these and not to wait until I encounter an issue or inadvertently help her develop a bad habit before coming back.

I really like him and my pup liked him too when we rode over to see the place and discuss the board and train.

Still, my concerns are

She's an inside dog and the board and train is outdoor kennel/indoor kennel/connected run (really nice but not the same as being inside my house). 

There will be other dogs in the kennel (separate of course but still all right there). She's a confident pup that loves making friends but all new territory, lots of dogs, barking...I'm worried that it could give her kennel stress

And then, the possibly irrational, but still real to me, fear that a board and train could have all the right references and recommendations but you still don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

I can't remember his other certifications(I'm on a IBD advocate forum and I thought it involved using a lot of acronyms but this forum here uses them in spades...I need a glossary to keep up) but I do know he is ADI certified and trains dogs for a veterans' assistance organization. I know he works with service dogs but I think he also does therapy and ESA as well.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

We can't make the decision for you, but I do like that he says he has to train you. Is there a way to take private lessons from him?


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## Annachi (Aug 9, 2016)

I really wish I had more options or lived closer to large cities where the trainers seem limitless but budget would still be tight I guess.

Private instruction with this (though he didn't mention offering it) probably wouldn't work long term due to the travel. The follow up lessons are doable but I couldn't do it more than once weekly over maybe 4 times just due to the drive back and forth.


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