# Do they really "want to please us"?



## codmaster

I am curious as to what folks here think about that often repeated training fable, that is "My dog wants to please me".

I have become convinced from training my many dogs that dogs will do what they think will reward them.

What do you think?


----------



## selzer

Nah, I feed my dogs at night when I bring them in, and in the morning when I let them out. They do not have to sit or wait or speak or down for their food, that is theirs.

I train with threats through basic obedience and puppy classes, but before our next class, I have pretty much weaned them. My dogs get goodies, a neck bone or chicke quarter or pig ear, when they are crated for the night. They do not have to do anything special for it. 

The work for the most part for the praise I give them. They want to hear me all happy with them. Cujo too, he gets all excited to do something. 

I truly think that the dog wants to please me. 

If you have not experienced the bond with a dog that really wants to please, I feel a bit sorry for you.

I know that the question was posed in such a way to make those of us who believe this to be too afraid to speak out. All that crap about a fable -- the question was posed with the proper answer inbedded. But I won't play that game though. 

My dogs DO want to please me and are pretty good at it. I do not shower them with rewards, but I do praise them verbally and pet them.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> Nah, I feed my dogs at night when I bring them in, and in the morning when I let them out. They do not have to sit or wait or speak or down for their food, that is theirs.
> 
> I train with threats through basic obedience and puppy classes, but before our next class, I have pretty much weaned them. My dogs get goodies, a neck bone or chicke quarter or pig ear, when they are crated for the night. They do not have to do anything special for it.
> 
> The work for the most part for the praise I give them. They want to hear me all happy with them. Cujo too, he gets all excited to do something.
> 
> I truly think that the dog wants to please me.
> 
> If you have not experienced the bond with a dog that really wants to please, I feel a bit sorry for you.
> 
> I know that the question was posed in such a way to make those of us who believe this to be too afraid to speak out. All that crap about a fable -- the question was posed with the proper answer inbedded. But I won't play that game though. My dogs DO want to please me and are pretty good at it. I do not shower them with rewards, but I do praise them verbally and pet them.


Please, chill out, Selzer.

I wasn't trying to influence anyones answer - just very curious since so many people really do seem to believe that their dogs want to please them. And that is fine. 

Could it be that they want to please their owner to achieve something that they think is very good for them? I.E. a treat, freedom to do something, a pet, etc. This is the debate that I was interested in. 

Make people "too afraid to speak out" - I really do tend to doubt that judging from the many debates that we see here. (and that is a good thing - to hear different opinions concerning our dogs, isn't it?).

I do wonder exactly what "fable" were you referring to?

BTW, I believe that I have developed a "bond" with all of my dogs and trained many of them to a very good degree and had a couple of them put themselves at physical risk to intervene when I was threatened. Would you consider that a bond? I do.


----------



## Greydusk

I think some do, some don't. Many breeds are bred with that "willingness to please" attitude. 

From the dogs perspective, I don't think that they're thinking "I'm going to sit because it'll make my owner happy", I think it's just kind of ingrained into their behavior.


----------



## stealthq

I think this is somewhat of a trick question. 

I have no doubt that my old dog did things to please me. Barring the initial baiting him to show him what I wanted, I trained him using only praise and warning tones for corrections. That dog would go nuts with happy excitement whenever praised, and absolutely cringe if I so much as scowled at him.

However, that just means that my dog felt good when he made me praise him, and felt bad when he thought I was upset with him. So, he really was doing what he thought would reward him. Don't we all


----------



## Dr89

I understand what you're getting at and have wondered the same thing myself. I think it has much to do with what breed the dog is, as well as the individual.

Rambo is my 11 month old male GSD, and I don't think he literally wants to please me, and I have no problem with that. His obedience is great, he'll work for me even when I don't have treats, a ball, or a tug--but probably only because he knows we'll stand there all day until he does, plus he just likes direction--more so than he likes that I LIKE him to listen. 

He's a dominant male and even when he knows what he SHOULD do, he won't unless I tell him too.

For example: for as long as I've had him (since 6 weeks) he has to sit before we go though the door inside. This is 4-5 times or more a day, every day, his whole life. He KNOWS that he has to sit, wait for me to unleash him, walk through the door, and THEN call him in...but if i just walk up and go in the door he'd rush right in past me.

He likes being led but if I'm not doing it then he'll immediately try to step up and get it done. I understand this and am fine with him working for me because I'm in charge, and not because he "wants to make me happy." 

I also find it somewhat idealistic to think they just want to please you, but not totally. 

I feel like a dog that always wanted to seriously please me would be insecure, like they were looking to me for approval all the time instead of being confident in what they're doing. Rambo wants me to tell him what to do because it makes him feel like he KNOWS what to do, not because I like it.

Maybe that was long winded but, just trying to get my point across.


----------



## Achielles UD

I do not think our dogs work "to please" us. With the exception of some "strange humans" lol, I believe all creatures with a central nervous system act to do what is beneficial to themselves. If that in turn "pleases" another being, I don't believe it was the original intent.

I have a great bond with my dogs, I think. They do things that make me happy which in turn causes something to happen they like (petting, praise, toy, food, free time, out of a crate, out the door, etc etc etc.). They do things I have taught them because it was initially rewarding for them to do so. Practicing "x" amount of times consistantly and the dog learning to associate the command with a behavior with a reward, eventually the reaction to the command becomes almost automatic/habit. At this point, the dog has had enough repetitions that they know there will be a reward of some kind for them once completed.

In general, I do things to make myself happy also. If it in turn makes my husband, kids or friends happy, great... but often I do them mostly to make myself happy (don't get me wrong, I like making family & friends happy, but in making them happy, I've also pleased myself because *I* like seeing them happy lol...). I believe that very rarely does a creature do somthing soley (sp?) to make someone or something else "happy." 

This does not take away from the bond I have with my dogs or my relationship with family and friends. I think it makes it stronger. I look at it as a Happy Circle  I ask for something, dog does it, I am happy, Dog is happy.. Dog asks for something (attention/toy/etc), I respond (command/attention/toy/etc), Dog is happy, I am happy.... 

A continuous happy circle! But my dog is not working to "please" me..


----------



## Samba

I think it is about pack drive. This seems core to the percieved desire to please in dogs. Very genetic. Dogs with this do not need much in way of reward to keep performing as a kind word and acknowledgement work well done.

I don't think you can create it in a dog. If they do not have it you will need to look for what the dog is willing to for.


----------



## NancyJ

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to what folks here think about that often repeated training fable, that is "My dog wants to please me".
> 
> I have become convinced from training my many dogs that dogs will do what they think will reward them.
> 
> What do you think?


I think it depends on the individual dog. I have a female that is the latter and a male that is the former. I prefer greatly having a dog that cares that I am more than a food ticket.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

this is the way I have always looked at , having german shepherds and aussies.

My aussies have always been "what's IN IT FOR ME?" where my gsd's seem to be "what can I do for YOU" (and if ya don't believe me, get an aussie

I tend to agree with Samba about pack drive. Masi for instance, isn't food motivated, more toy motivated, but doesn't seem to be looking for a "reward" in order to 'do' something..But then again, like Achielles said, being happy, a "good girl", a pat, IS a reward so they are acheiving something by doing something, even tho it may be a minute thing.


----------



## Dogaroo

Achielles UD said:


> I do not think our dogs work "to please" us. With the exception of some "strange humans" lol, I believe all creatures with a central nervous system act to do what is beneficial to themselves. If that in turn "pleases" another being, I don't believe it was the original intent.


Interesting perspective. How often do we do something without expectation of future benefit, even if our "reward" is nothing more than a good feeling from the thought of doing something kind for someone else? 

My first dog, Sarah, a Cocker/Terrier mix, was a self-serving little tyrant. She lived to please nobody but herself. I loved her dearly, even though she was very much like my younger sister in personality and temperament. (Both were blonde, cute and charming in a sociopathic sort of way, as well.) She did well with training, but only if the rewards were frequent and highly desirable-- and even when she had mastered a command, she would ignore it if it didn't happen to be on her agenda at the present moment. 

Kaija, however, is her polar opposite. Kaija lives to please me, and she's sensitive-- perhaps TOO sensitive-- to my moods. A reward to her is something as simple as a "good job" or even a smile. A skritch behind the ears & a kiss on the schnoz will send her into paroxysms of ecstasy. If I so much as frown at her or act displeased in any way, she whimpers and tends to overcompensate in her attempts to appease me. 

Kaija will leave that piece of cheesecake sitting on the table even though she desperately wants it, just because I told her to leave it alone. Sarah would have leaped onto the table & snatched the cheesecake the instant my attention drifted from it, knowing she could outrun me, hide behind the sofa, and have that lovely cheesecake devoured before I got anywhere near her. And no matter what the consequences might be, she would do it again at the first opportunity. 

Ah, Sarah.... She was my alpha dog & she retained that position over my other dogs (who were four or five times her size), even when she was crippled by arthritis and could no longer see nor hear. Sometimes she would run up to one of the other dogs & deliver a very thorough tongue lashing, but she couldn't really tell which end was which, so half the time she was yelling loudly at the wrong end of the other dog. Sometimes the recipient of Sarah's tirade would turn his or her head & give her a puzzled look, but they never quite dared to correct her or challenge her in any way.


----------



## Achielles UD

I don't know how to express my thoughts very well (darn being up all night working)... I'll give it another shot..

I do think living things do things that please themselves in some way. I agree Pack Drive is one of the things the best working/willing dogs must have to be better than nonworking/independent/stubborn dogs. Pack drive plays a part for sure. But I tend to still put that in the "do what makes me happy" catagory. 

Dogs are social creatures, and some breeds are bred genetically to be more social than others. It is one of the reasons we love them. Pack is part of that socialness. The higher the pack drive, the more the dog is looking to please their pack in order to get desired food, shelter, safety which in turn is all good for them. 

I mean how many dogs or people (to keep this in a more narrow perspective to social beings) do you know that conciously go out of their way to drive others away? When we do encounter these oddities, we label them abnormal because it is just not how a well-adjusted social/pack animal behaves. 

Dogs do learn by associations and experiences what is good for themselves and what is not. They strive to keep pack "happiness," I would call it, to keep themselves in a secure and "happy" position. 

So, even if I've made no sense :crazy: lol 
I guess I am just trying to say, I see the be-all-end-all of our (and dogs, horses, parameciums, cats etc) actions to lead to the end of the line as making ourselves "happy." 

There are a lot of subcatagories and branches but in the end they all meet at the "Happiness Circle" to me


----------



## Emoore

No, I agree with Achilles. Even human beings who are most altruistic, do what they do because it makes them feel good within themselves. If Mother Theresa had hated every second of serving lepers and felt horrible about herself while she did it, she wouldn't have done it. It made her feel good about herself, made her feel like she was serving Jesus, made her feel like she was doing some good in the world. 

When I do something for my husband, I do it because I love him and I want him to be happy, sure. But if he was a self-serving tyrant who made my life miserable, you can bet I'd leave him. I do nice things for my husband, ultimately, because living with him and having a relationship with him makes ME happy. 

Same thing with our dogs. Once they've advanced beyond the point of being treated every time we say "sit," and they obey because they "want to please us," they're still doing it for themselves. A pleased pack leader is a happy, peaceful pack.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Achielles UD said:


> So, even if I've made no sense :crazy: lol


You made perfect sense and I totally agree with you. I don't think you can completely separate pleasing you with pleasing themselves, because when we're happy life is usually better for them too, even if there is no immediate and discernible reward at that particular moment. Dogs are constantly making associations - how can they possibly have not noticed that? I'm sure pack drive does play a role too, but I think it's more than that.


----------



## Samba

The pack driven dog is satisfied with the pleasing of the human. It is not going against its drive or nature. So indeed, this dog is self serving. I have always considered dogs to be self centered. I don't think my dog would be so motivated to please me if a competing satisfaction arose. 

This is why I like a dog who works to please and finds that highly satisfying. That is the type of dog one can call off sheep, etc without a lot of head banging.


----------



## Jax08

No. Jax wants to play more than anything. Pleasing me is a way to get more of what she wants. She gets very excited when I'm happy with something she did and it only takes one harsh word to shut her down but what my dog wants more than anything is to PLAY. My job is make me the thing she wants to play with most. Then she will want to please me so she gets more play.


----------



## robinhuerta

Achielles....I agree with your position on this.

Dogs are "biddable" creatures. Some dogs are more biddable than others, that is where we have the "perceived notion" that they are eager to please us.
In all actuality, they are doing the actions that received the best "reaction" from us...in which "they" are rewarded. *Reward comes in all forms*.
Independent dogs are less biddable because the reward they seek most comes from within themselves...where as more handler sensitive dogs seek the reward that comes from the owner/handler. (I hope I've made that understandable?).
ALL dogs do "work" for some form of reward....they do not simply do it from the bottom of their lil hearts. *Understanding WHICH reward gets the best response, is key in training development.*
Biddability (is that a word?) ..is the level in which your dog seeks it's reward....even independent dogs WILL work for you, once you have learned what motivates them.
Reward = motivation.

*I know that many "training gurus" may not possibly agree with my opinion....but that is why we all train and learn differently*.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

Achielles UD said:


> ... I believe all creatures with a central nervous system act to do what is *beneficial to themselves*. If that in turn "pleases" another being, I don't believe it was the original intent.
> 
> I have a great bond with my dogs, I think. They do things that make me happy which in turn causes something to happen they like (petting, praise, toy, food, free time, out of a crate, out the door, etc etc etc.). They do things I have taught them because it was initially rewarding for them to do so. Practicing "x" amount of times consistantly and the dog learning to associate the command with a behavior with a reward, eventually the reaction to the command becomes almost automatic/habit. At this point, the dog has had enough repetitions that they know there will be a reward of some kind for them once completed.


I highly agree with the above (and I bolded the most important part).

Dogs do what they do because they KNOW it will get them something.

Food, a toy, praise, a car ride ... whatever. And that 'something' is their REWARD for doing what we have asked them to do.


----------



## Dogaroo

And we humans are different from our dogs.... HOW?


----------



## lrodptl

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to what folks here think about that often repeated training fable, that is "My dog wants to please me".
> 
> I have become convinced from training my many dogs that dogs will do what they think will reward them.
> 
> What do you think?


I agree,they want some kind of reward,whether it be treats,toy,play or praise. Ian Dunbar talks about this,dogs will want to do a behavior if they get something good on the other end. Try to get a dog to do something that it doesn't want to do or will get negative results,even if it makes the owner happy.


----------



## phgsd

Samba said:


> I think it is about pack drive. This seems core to the percieved desire to please in dogs. Very genetic. Dogs with this do not need much in way of reward to keep performing as a kind word and acknowledgement work well done.


I would definitely agree with this. A good example is when Kessy is herding...sometimes it will be very hot and/or she's working for longer than she's used to (3+ hours) and she'll start to tire and slow down. If I praise her and tell her she's doing a good job, she will perk up and will patrol with more energy. There is no reward in it for her...she is expected to keep working in the same fashion regardless of whether she's praised or not - the praise just lets her know she's doing a good job. She doesn't get pet, she doesn't get a treat, she just keeps working.

I actually have to be careful with my praise with her and keep it low key on a day to day basis - otherwise if I go overboard with the praise she gets too excited and will get unruly. 

My other dogs don't have this level of "biddability" or "pack drive" or whatever you want to call it. Djenga will do anything for a ball, Gizmo will do anything for a treat, but praise and affection don't mean a whole lot to either.


----------



## lrodptl

phgsd said:


> I would definitely agree with this. A good example is when Kessy is herding...sometimes it will be very hot and/or she's working for longer than she's used to (3+ hours) and she'll start to tire and slow down. If I praise her and tell her she's doing a good job, she will perk up and will patrol with more energy. There is no reward in it for her...she is expected to keep working in the same fashion regardless of whether she's praised or not - the praise just lets her know she's doing a good job. She doesn't get pet, she doesn't get a treat, she just keeps working.
> 
> I actually have to be careful with my praise with her and keep it low key on a day to day basis - otherwise if I go overboard with the praise she gets too excited and will get unruly.
> 
> My other dogs don't have this level of "biddability" or "pack drive" or whatever you want to call it. Djenga will do anything for a ball, Gizmo will do anything for a treat, but praise and affection don't mean a whole lot to either.


In this case the praise would raise her excitement level.


----------



## selzer

I do not know which is harder to believe, that a dog's thinking is, "a happy pack leader makes a happy pack so lets keep the leader happy" or "there's my Susie, she's not happy, I will curl up next to her." So what if Sue rests her hand on the dog and evenutally starts petting the dog, and then feels better. 

If I think when training a dog, he is stupid, he doesn't listen, he is deliberately blowing me off, he is defiant, well I will get No Where with the dog. 

If I think, this dog wants to do what I want him to do. Somehow, I am not getting through to him what I want. I do not throw up my hands and drive the dog to the pound. I figure out what works in training THIS dog to do what I want him to do. 

Ultimately, you can always find something that rewards a behavior to blame good behavior on. 
But that does not mean that dogs or people do not do the right thing because they know what the right thing is, and they just do it. 

Think of people on the job. People on the job, feel good or bad when they have a clear set of instructions? When we know how to do a job, we are comfortable, and are willing to do the job, and make few mistakes. When a dog knows how to do what they want, they are comfortable, and willing, and make few mistakes. 

I think too many times when people say a dog is defiant or stubborn, they simply have not been clear enough to the dog in their training/instructions and are putting the dog in a bad spot. The dog adds up the body language. The person is saying SIT but she is pointing DOWN, now what? Should I Sit? should I Down? Should I stand here with a puzzled look on my face that my owner thinks is stubbornness and always makes him mad? He is getting mad. What do I do, sit, down. I know he is going to be really mad if I do the wrong thing. 

If I approach training in such a way that the communication is on me, then I do not have to be mad at the dog. If I tell my dogs to Sit or to Stay or to Come, I expect them to do so, the first time, every time. Maybe they can sense that too in people. Some people turn up their command into a question, and instead of the dog hearing "Come" dogs:head{get butt front and center right now}, they here "Come?" dogs head:{ if you want to, why not come over here}. 

Some are taught to ignore tones 1, 2, and 3: 1. Come over and let me do your toenails; 2. Get over here, I do not have all day; 3. I mean it, get your butt in gear. And they wait for tone four: FRODO, NOW! They are taught to blow you off. 

My dogs know that Come over and let me do your toenails is something I expect them to respond properly to. When they come, I tell them good, and then Hupp so they will go up on the doghouse so it is easy for me to see the nails. They are not doing it so that it will be easy for me to see them, but because they know what I want them to do and are happy to do what I want. Even if getting their nails clipped is not their idea of a walk in the park or a swim in the creek.

They are not looking at the clippers and thinking, what's in it for me -- btw, I have NEVER, EVER, NOT ONE TIME given a treat for clipping toenails. I often do 180 nails at a time, and I do not mess around. Occasionally I nick a quick or two. 

If they know what I want, they are happy to do it.


----------



## Dr89

Selzer I think on some level you're giving the dogs too much credit. 

When I call one of my dogs yes I do expect them to come, and some are far past the point of receiving a reward for simply coming to me--but what happens when they dont? 

In those beginning stages of training not listening ended in them being "in trouble," which could be a sharp "NO," a jerk on the prong collar, etc. 

So just because they're coming without hope of a reward, doesn't mean they're not AVOIDING something negative.

It's all conditioning in my opinion--and done right the dog will be happy to abide.


----------



## lrodptl

Dr89 said:


> Selzer I think on some level you're giving the dogs too much credit.
> 
> When I call one of my dogs yes I do expect them to come, and some are far past the point of receiving a reward for simply coming to me--but what happens when they dont?
> 
> In those beginning stages of training not listening ended in them being "in trouble," which could be a sharp "NO," a jerk on the prong collar, etc.
> 
> So just because they're coming without hope of a reward, doesn't mean they're not AVOIDING something negative.
> 
> It's all conditioning in my opinion--and done right the dog will be happy to abide.


I read that dogs have been domesticated or bred from the beginning to cooperate. They will cooperate even with some people they do not know.


----------



## selzer

Dr89 said:


> Selzer I think on some level you're giving the dogs too much credit.
> 
> When I call one of my dogs yes I do expect them to come, and some are far past the point of receiving a reward for simply coming to me--but what happens when they dont?
> 
> In those beginning stages of training not listening ended in them being "in trouble," which could be a sharp "NO," a jerk on the prong collar, etc.
> 
> So just because they're coming without hope of a reward, doesn't mean they're not AVOIDING something negative.
> 
> It's all conditioning in my opinion--and done right the dog will be happy to abide.


I rarely ever have to use terms like No! or Shame! What happened if they did not come as babies? -- never had the problem. They come to me. They think it is exciting to wait until I call and then they come. I have NEVER had to correct a dog for NOT coming. 

Of course I do not call dogs to correct them. 

But to suggest that my dogs are thinking, gee if I don't come Suzie is going to jerk my collar or hit me with a shock or not give me my dinner, or hit me with the dog-whip -- insulting. 

Right now I am working with a yearling bitch pup that someone gave me back after injuring her pretty badly. I got her back just under six months old. I was told the 12 year old boy was teasing her, trying to get her to go for him, over and over again and now he is a little afraid of her -- great. I was told she was tethered above the bed at night and the daughter allowed her in the bed, and she got wrapped up in the tether and injured her elbow badly. They had also put the four month old pup in with the _trainer's_ 3 adult dogs for three days to teach her dog manners. 

When I got this pup back she wanted NOTHING to do with me and was mostly interested in the other dogs. I had to let her heal. I gave her the indoor outdoor kennel/puppy pen and just let her be and let her heal. I did not try to train her, for anything, and she was not out of the kennel to run around or anything as she was hurting and I felt limiting the exercise was best. 

When Odessa came, I moved Dolly to a 10 x 15' kennel next to Tori only. The kennel with the larger shelter that she would not be able to jump up on. She had a house and a cot in there (inside the shelter), with eight feet of Tori's kennel blocked by her shelter so that they would not tear themselves up running up and down them. This was early January. She was not interested in me, only the other dogs. I went ahead and continued, bringing her in last and letting her out first so that she would go from the kennel to the house and the house to the kennel and I would not have to force her. 

I continued to treat her kindly, and tell her what a good dog she was. After Cupcake went to her new home, I started to notice that Dolly was coming around, and was more interested in me. But I am not pushing it. Last month I started taking her to classes. She is doing good. 

I still bring her in last and now after she eats, I walk back outside and put her back into her kennel for the night. It is cool out there, and she does not bark or fuss, I think that rather than give her the patio and let her in and out, she is calmer out and she comes right along and goes into her kennel. Also, without training, I can now let her out of her Kennel when the other dogs ARE out there, and when I call her she runs to me and goes back in her kennel. This was achieved without treats, and even without a lot of pets or praise. Just some calm, consistent, words and actions or non-action. I am very pleased with the decision I made to give her the time to heal, and not push training. Now I have started training with her, we are just going at our own pace. There is no hurry. She is comfortable, and very easy to manage at this point. 

Dolly was very independent, even when I sold her at four months -- I tried to get them to take Bear as she was much more outgoing, and people oriented in the first place. But they wanted the black and red pup, and I made a mistake and let them take Dolly. People talk about how you should separate pups when you raise them together so they bond with you. Ha! Bear and Beansy were together for ten months, and they are both people oriented, and have no trouble bonding with people Dolly is a little different, and was from the beginning when they were all in the litter together. 

But I expect even Dolly is showing clear signs of wanting to please me already. She learns quickly and does things quickly with or without a treat (in class). The first day she barked at a few dogs, but now she seems fine working around foreign dogs. She is not bothered by the people, though she is interested when she sees kids running around.

Other people would have worked with Dolly totally different and maybe would have her perfect right now. Maybe she would be a lot worse too. I expect that she will have an RN and a CGC before she turns two, and then I do not know what we will do, depends on her x-rays I suppose (no I am not intending on breeding her, but if she has a problem, I will not want to do Avanced or Excellent with her, and might go Obedience). 

Dolly comes to me why?

1. Not for a treat, I do not carry them with me. And even her dinner is put down in the house before I release her from her kennel. She never sees that, she just knows it is there. In the morning she does see me give her her food, but she is not nutso about getting her food, like Milla. It is not for food or treats.
2. Not because she is afraid I will beat or hurt or yell at her. 
3. I put her in and shut the gate, sometimes I will touch her muzzle, sometimes not, I always tell her she is a good girl. 

So she is not looking for something good, and she is not avoiding something bad. 

I think she knows what I want and is willing to do what I want. She has decided that she will do what I ask.

ETA: My dogs do not know what a prong collar feels like. Though I occasionally threaten them, PRONG COLLAR, APL, EUTHANASIA.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

selzer said:


> Dolly comes to me why?
> 
> 1. Not for a treat, I do not carry them with me.
> 2. Not because she is afraid I will beat or hurt or yell at her.
> 3. I put her in and shut the gate, sometimes I will touch her muzzle, sometimes not, *I always tell her she is a good girl. *
> 
> So she is not looking for something good,


Yes, she is. She knows that she will ALWAYS (your words) get praised for coming to you.

That is her "something good".


----------



## selzer

But why does an independent girl that did not want anything to do with people a few months ago, care about a few nice words and a soft touch on the muzzle?

Now she does want to do what I want, for a few nice words. If she was only thinking of herself what would some hot air out of an ugly upright creature matter?

I think they do want to cooperate. 

I do not have her totally isolated either. Her kennel buts up against Tori and she has her all day long. The rest of the time Bear or others will run to her kennel and nose each other. I am not starving her for attention.

EDA: that I do spend a little time with her when the others are in for the night in the yard, cleaning kennels and checking buckets and such. And I am always talking or singing out there.


----------



## robinhuerta

Reward is "all things positive".....*body language, praise, touch, food, toy, social pack acceptance...etc....anything positive*


----------



## selzer

Yeah well, I can throw the ball for the others, but I had to be careful how much I encouraged her to run and chase. So, praise and touch is about all we have to go on. Though she is not the type of dog that would dote on a human's touch or praise. Maybe because she was injured badly, and I provided safety and healing for her. That sounds a bit melodramatic though.

I think she has just chosen to trust me, and is willing to cooperate with me, which to me is to please me.


----------



## Ruthie

I think it is both. Dogs are like humans in that the core of what we do is based in what makes us feel good about ourselves. 

However on a surface level I think dogs do like to make us happy. I think just like I like to see my dogs happy, they like to see me happy because they like me and they like what happens when I am happy, a happy word, a pat, or just silent camaraderie.


----------



## Tbarrios333

I think dogs do in fact seek out human interaction because it pleases them as well as us. There has to be a reason why when I look at my dogs sideways, they immediately stop what they're doing when they realize I don't approve. They do this to "please" me.
There also has to be a reason why Denali will go up to people she knows and ask for butt scratches by nudging your hand. Self interest.

However, I also think it has a lot to do with the methods we used to train them. If from an early age, the dog learns that working for us is fun, then they will want to work in the future because they have been conditioned to think it is fun. In this case, I also think it is more self interest. The dog spends time with the handler and receives fun/rewards.

If a dog is taught that training is boring, they will do what is asked, but they won't do it with enthusiasm and you can see that they are doing only out of self interest. Ie. If they don't do what we want, they either get in trouble or don't get what they want.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> I rarely ever have to use terms like No! or Shame! What happened if they did not come as babies? -- never had the problem. They come to me. They think it is exciting to wait until I call and then they come. I have NEVER had to correct a dog for NOT coming.
> 
> Of course I do not call dogs to correct them.
> 
> But to suggest that my dogs are thinking, gee if I don't come Suzie is going to jerk my collar or hit me with a shock or not give me my dinner, or hit me with the dog-whip -- insulting.
> 
> Right now I am working with a yearling bitch pup that someone gave me back after injuring her pretty badly. I got her back just under six months old. I was told the 12 year old boy was teasing her, trying to get her to go for him, over and over again and now he is a little afraid of her -- great. I was told she was tethered above the bed at night and the daughter allowed her in the bed, and she got wrapped up in the tether and injured her elbow badly. They had also put the four month old pup in with the _trainer's_ 3 adult dogs for three days to teach her dog manners.
> 
> When I got this pup back she wanted NOTHING to do with me and was mostly interested in the other dogs. I had to let her heal. I gave her the indoor outdoor kennel/puppy pen and just let her be and let her heal. I did not try to train her, for anything, and she was not out of the kennel to run around or anything as she was hurting and I felt limiting the exercise was best.
> 
> When Odessa came, I moved Dolly to a 10 x 15' kennel next to Tori only. The kennel with the larger shelter that she would not be able to jump up on. She had a house and a cot in there (inside the shelter), with eight feet of Tori's kennel blocked by her shelter so that they would not tear themselves up running up and down them. This was early January. She was not interested in me, only the other dogs. I went ahead and continued, bringing her in last and letting her out first so that she would go from the kennel to the house and the house to the kennel and I would not have to force her.
> 
> I continued to treat her kindly, and tell her what a good dog she was. After Cupcake went to her new home, I started to notice that Dolly was coming around, and was more interested in me. But I am not pushing it. Last month I started taking her to classes. She is doing good.
> 
> I still bring her in last and now after she eats, I walk back outside and put her back into her kennel for the night. It is cool out there, and she does not bark or fuss, I think that rather than give her the patio and let her in and out, she is calmer out and she comes right along and goes into her kennel. Also, without training, I can now let her out of her Kennel when the other dogs ARE out there, and when I call her she runs to me and goes back in her kennel. This was achieved without treats, and even without a lot of pets or praise. Just some calm, consistent, words and actions or non-action. I am very pleased with the decision I made to give her the time to heal, and not push training. Now I have started training with her, we are just going at our own pace. There is no hurry. She is comfortable, and very easy to manage at this point. ............
> 
> But I expect even Dolly is showing clear signs of wanting to please me already. ...............
> .......................
> Dolly comes to me why?
> ..............................................................
> So she is not looking for something good, and she is not avoiding something bad.
> 
> I think she knows what I want and is willing to do what I want. She has decided that she will do what I ask.
> 
> ...............


That must be really great to have a 100% recall - very hard to do for most of us (esp me as my dog is a very curious, outgoing, confident in himself dog).

And especially since your dogs seem to want to do whatever you want them to do just because they want to please you. Wish my guy was like that - he just seems to want to do what he wants to do, although with training I will say that he has gotten better at doing what I tell him do when i tell him to do it. Wish he would want to please me more than himself.


----------



## Dogaroo

I've had really good bosses, mediocre bosses and really bad bosses. I did what the bad bosses wanted me to do because I didn't like being chewed out or written up or losing my job. (Motivation: Avoiding something unpleasant.) With the mediocre bosses, I did my job to the best of my ability even though they weren't always clear or consistent in their expectations for me, which caused almost as much anxiety as being chewed out or written up. (Motivations: Desire to take pride in a job well done, regardless of whether it's recognized or not; fear that I might not meet expectations that hadn't been clearly stated.) Whenever I've worked for a good boss, I've gone above & beyond to not just meet expectations, but exceed them-- because when I like & respect my boss, I _want_ to do my very best work for him/her. The motivation in this case is a little harder to describe, but I know it feels really good to do stuff for people who are kind, caring, fair, consistent, trustworthy. Doing things for people you hold in high regard is rewarding in itself-- at least it is for me. 

Something I've wondered about: What was the reinforcer/reward/benefit for my dogs when Gunnar trained himself to recognize & alert me to impending migraines (several minutes before I even _knew_ I was getting one) or when Kaija & Gunnar (& now Gunner) took it upon themselves to keep me inside the house & on at least a couple occasions redirected me back to bed when I was sleepwalking? Why were they blocking the doorways when I woke up with my car keys in my hand, when normally they would race to the car hoping to go for a ride as soon as I picked up the keys? Did I somehow reward them subconsciously, and consistently enough to reinforce the behavior? Or did bonding & devotion play a role here?


----------



## Dogaroo

I've noticed that my "secondhand" dogs have generally been more obsessive about pleasing me (or, perhaps, more anxious about _not_ pleasing me) than my dogs who have had more stability early in life. 

One time when I was really, really sick with flu, I went to lie down for awhile because I felt absolutely miserable. Naturally, the dogs followed me to the bedroom-- they always stick really close to me when I'm not feeling well. I crawled into bed & drifted off to sleep.... and when I woke up, danged if all the dog toys in the house weren't carefully tucked in bed around & under me! Even Gunnar's highly prized purple octopus & Kaija's best squeaky ball were there, right by my chin & my nose.


----------



## Good_Karma

Well, all I know is that if Rosa could give me the finger, she would. I don't think she has any desire to please me. She wants me to play with her, or she wants a treat, or she wants to be let off leash, but she behaves for me in order to get these things, not because it makes me pleased. But if I am wanting her to do something, for example I was trying to teach her to speak (which I successfully taught Niko to do, so I'm not completely clueless), and she would just look at me. Then give me a down. Then whine a little. Then look away and pretend I no longer exist. I suppose it is entirely possible that she doesn't know what I want her to do, but it seems like she is saying, "Screw you Mommy, I am not a trained monkey to do your bidding. I do not wish to play that game."  I love Rosa, she's a pip.


----------



## codmaster

Hah! Hah! Too funny (and unfortunately way too familiar!)

Well said!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That's because Rosa's not a dog and doesn't need to do dog things.  And I am not entirely sure I am kidding about that. I have never seen people respond to a puppy like they did to her, and it was very primate to primate.

ETA - I picture dogs like people in a worksite. Everyone is working for some reason. They don't all do it the same way, or with the same attitude, and you need to know how to manipulate them to get the very best performance from them.


----------



## debbiebrown

i think its purely an individual thing......some dogs are naturals at wanting to please and are completely tuned into their owners. others need a bit of coaxing in this area..

of all the gsd's i have owned in my lifetime i have only had one that was completely willing to please, completely tuned in naturally, the rest needed work in this area......


----------



## brembo

There is debate as to whether or not pure altruism exists, or can be achieved.

Hypothetical pure altruistic action:

You see a motorist with a flat tire, you stop, change the tire and drive off. You get zilch in terms of monetary compensation, no thanks from the motorist (say you changed it while they had their back turned) AND you get no warm fuzzy feeling for helping someone out. In that scenario you changed the tire for only one reason, you really wanted to change that tire....which blows the altruistic premise up. Or it was curiosity that drove you to do some roadside wrenching, which again negates the altruistic aspect.

I don't see why dogs need to be held up to a higher standard when addressing the "desire to please" than humans. Anything a person does that is labeled "pleasing" has benefits for the person performing the actions. We praise people that donate money or time to causes and seem to be able to overlook the fact that in doing so those people are doing such because helping others is a GOOD FEELING. 

I massage my dog daily. He loves it, if he relaxed more, he might slip into a coma. I do this for Banjo's benefit and also my own. It relaxes me and I feel like a decent human being in that I am making my dog so happy. 

Banjo does not like baths. However I can tell him to get into the tub and he will. He whines and acts as though it's the most awful thing in the world. His body language screams "OH NO, NOT BATH!" but he gets into the tub without my help, all the while complaining. I've never used physical means as punishment, sharp words are plenty. For his bath, I use soft words and do not demand. He gets in the tub because he knows I want him to. That, in my book, is a dog doing something to simply please/do the right thing for his owner.


----------



## AkirasMom

I would love for my puppy to please me. She is only 12 weeks old so I am hoping with time she does things to please me. However, right now she only listens when she knows it will lead to getting something like a treat or dinner.


----------



## PaddyD

I think dogs are a lot like humans, they do what, in their minds, makes sense to them. They are all a little different, like us, in what makes sense to them. People make choices based on their own particular paradigm. Some people give their lives to help others, some steal the lives of others, most are somewhere in between .... but we all do what makes sense to us. Same with dogs. If they are driven to be possessive, or to be intense fetchers or to be timid or to be 'good' dogs then that is what makes sense to them. Just like with people we can often change their perspective so that something else 'makes more sense' or is of more value, but until they accept it we have not yet succeeded in making that change. JMHO


----------



## mnbue

*Wanting to please?*

My guy is pretty tuned in to my husband and I, and what I'd call "people pleasing" - whether through training or because of his own personality I can't tell you.

What I can tell you is that we worked very hard to raise him in a "pack structure". We taught him a verbal correction early on, and haven't had to use any physical correction almost ever since (not even a collar correction in training) - but then we have ALWAYS followed up if he didn't pay attention to the simple "ah" we use for "no". He's a very happy dog, and we've tried to always make any training into a game. At the end of the day, he seems to really like to do whatever command we give him. In the situations where he's not as enthusiastic, a verbal correction is enough to get an "I'm sorry Mom" tail-wagging apology and a quick fix of the behaviour.

Now do I think he loves us as though we're his Mom and Dad, and wants us to be happy with him? No. Nor do I think his canine brain is so limited that he thinks we're actually other dogs who are physically dominant over him. 

I think we (humans) have instincts based on obsolete biology, and so do they, though. Female humans primp so as to be as attractive to as many as possible, because we have to get that choice male in order to have strong, surviving offspring. Male humans try to clobber each other in order to be seen as that "choice male" (and before anyone gets offended yes, I'm grossly generalizing to make a point). Dogs know that they have to behave in a way that is tolerable to other members of the pack, especially those in a dominant position - otherwise they'll find themselves out on the street, which can lead to starvation. I think they behave because they're pack-oriented animals. And they look sweet and loveable doing it because we've bred them to have sweet and loveable characteristics (I read in a book about the science of animal behaviour that dogs play more than any other canid, the theory being that we've bred them to stay mentally in that juvenile developmental state...that could also speak to the "need to please".)


----------



## CookieTN

No, I think they do. Some breeds tend to be more stubborn than others. I assume that if you used reward based training on a Husky you'd still have a lot harder time training him than you would a breed known to be eager-to-please.
People tend to think that if a dog learns quickly it's very intelligent. Well, now, what if it was largely because he was willing to learn? The breeds that are known for being harder to train are also known for being more independent, am I right?

I am completely convinced that the only reason I was able to teach Cookie much of anything, including curbing her dog-aggression, was because she wanted to please me. I was in my pre-teens/early teens when I taught her most of the stuff I taught her, people, and was just learning about training techniques or knew next to nothing about it at the time. Seriously doubt I would have had any success with a more independent breed.


----------



## Freestep

I think that all social animals are born with some degree of "wanting to please" other members of its social group. Even insects--worker bees willingly give their lives to protect the hive. What's in it for them personally? They were not "trained", and they get no reward. They do it out of pure instinct.

Canines have a higher functioning brain than insects, so behavior is more complex. There are many instinctual behaviors meant to appease and lubricate social interactions within the pack. This is not only to preserve the individual's well-being, but to minimize stress and strife within the pack. When a wolf grooms another wolf, he's probably not thinking "If I groom the alpha now, perhaps he will let me eat beside him later." Animals live in the moment and I doubt they consider WHY they do the things they do, especially if there is no immediate reward.

In domestic dogs, the pack drive/desire to please is intensified. In certain breeds it is even more intensified. When you add a reward to certain behaviors that the dog does naturally, they are strongly reinforced, and the dog's behaviors can be directed on command. Eventually they will perform these behaviors even without a reward. Why are they doing it? Force of habit? I'm sure that's one aspect, but there has to be something internalized within the dog's mind, such that pleasing the owner is a reward in itself.

Of course, some dogs have more of a desire to please than others. My Akbash dog, for example, is a "what's in it for me" kind of fellow. But even he will come when called about 90% of the time, which is pretty darn good for Livestock Guardian Dog. He will sit on command--eventually--if you have a treat, and will give you five, but he does these things for the treats, not to please me. However, he becomes submissive when scolded, and offers appeasing body language. Does that mean he feels ashamed that he has not pleased me? He's never been physically punished, so he is not trying to avoid punishment... so why bother with trying to appease me? 

The thing is, social animals have built-in behaviors that are designed to prevent being hurt or ostracized from the group. Most humans have the same thing; sometimes it is so internalized that it's not even self-aware. You could interpret this behavior as "willingness to please". So at its core, it is a self-preserving mechanism--but there is always the instance where an animal (or human) will willingly risk bodily injury or death to defend its group. What is that?


----------



## cta

i agree with what was said by others. i don't think dogs work to please, i think they work to get the reward they are seeking, whether it be food, play, praise, etc. i know for a fact that my dog does not aim to please. in fact, i believe he's pretty self-centered and very independent. he is very driven by food and by play. does that mean we don't have strong bond? i just don't believe that to be true. it just means that for me to be "pleased" by him, i need to offer the proper reward. for my dog it's food...for others it may be praise. but in the end, the dog is still pleasing you based on what's in for them. and everyone's definition of "pleasing" can differ depending on their dog.


----------



## Samba

I have a bitch who pretty much lives to please and is ridiculously responsive to me. But, she doesn't behave this way because she would rather do something else but then chooses to please me instead. No, she does it because her breeding and genetics created a dog whose own self serving nature is rewarded by pack approval. What she does for me she is actually doing for herself by fulfilling her inner drive.


----------



## tropicalsun

We're blessed with a lab and a GSD. We just had this discussion the other day. Our Labrador seems to genuinely want to please us. She seems "satisfied" to find what makes us happy. Our GSD seems "satisfied" to find what makes him happy.


----------



## Mrs.K

I think it's the dogs that are constantly trying to suck up to you, that constantly seek your companionship and want to be with you at all times, that always seek your attention and that are constantly in your space and would crawl into your armpit, if they could... that are very easy to train with a single happy word or some petting and that is perceived as "will to please".


----------



## Dogaroo

And how many of us humans are completely altruistic in our interactions with others? When we give of ourselves, is it not to get something in return, even if that "something" is nothing more than the warm, fuzzy feeling we get from knowing we did something to brighten someone's day or make the world a better place? How often do we cheerfully & willingly do good things that we know will never be acknowledged & appreciated? 

(Pardon my waxing philosophical at this late hour. Can I blame it on my meds?)


----------



## GSD07

My dog is very tuned to me but I do not describe this as a desire to please me. I think we figured out how to coexist in perfect balance by learning how to avoid each others rough sides that disturb that peaceful balance of the pack, so to speak. He does things he would rather skip, like going to a vet, simply because he trusts that I will do no harm and protect him from harm. I think, it's a matter of trust and not a desire to please. If he is tasked with something, like running a track and finding articles, he does it for the satisfaction of accomplishing that task, and not because he wants to please me. I can see how proud he is with himself when he succeeds, and my praise serves only as a confirmation, not as the end goal. 

On a side note, I dislike people pleasers in the human world. I think this trait is destructive to the personality of a people pleaser, and corrupts the recipients.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSD07 said:


> My dog is very tuned to me but I do not describe this as a desire to please me. I think we figured out how to coexist in perfect balance by learning how to avoid each others rough sides that disturb that peaceful balance of the pack, so to speak. He does things he would rather skip, like going to a vet, simply because he trusts that I will do no harm and protect him from harm. I think, it's a matter of trust and not a desire to please. If he is tasked with something, like running a track and finding articles, he does it for the satisfaction of accomplishing that task, and not because he wants to please me. I can see how proud he is with himself when he succeeds, and my praise serves only as a confirmation, not as the end goal.
> 
> On a side note, I dislike people pleasers in the human world. I think this trait is destructive to the personality of a people pleaser, and corrupts the recipients.


I don't like the people pleaser that always try to please every single person they come across. That is just not a good thing because most of the time, those people don't think for themselves, they have others think for them an try to please them to a point of no return. I don't like that either.


----------



## Nikitta

You train with threats Sezler? GO DOWN OR YOU GET YOUR DOGGIE TOYS PUT AWAY!!!( /tease I know it was a typo.  )


----------



## PaddyD

We all first do what makes us feel secure, so do dogs. But dogs stay at that level while we don't. Dogs do what makes them feel safe and secure. If pleasing us rewards that feeling then that is what they do. We feed into it by rewarding them for doing what we want. So they learn quickly. A belly rub is a good example. They lie down and expose themselves and get rewarded with a belly rub. Ultimately, they are training us to rub their bellies while we think they are being submissive. Next, they train us to throw sticks and even more interesting and expensive items. If they are lucky, they will train us to take them for walks or to give them something interesting to bite or tug on.


----------



## chelle

Sure, dogs want to please us because they get a great benefit by doing so. Whether it be a treat, a tummy rub, a GOOD BOY!, a chewie,,, whatever they get, it is positive so therefore, duh! please the human.

But in a way, I think this might be oversimplified. 

Last night the bf and I got into a big, ugly fight. I ended up withdrawing to the other room to bawl my little eyes out - not something I do often at all. Well, basically never. Bailey just did NOT know what to think of this, he'd never seen it.

I was sitting there, with my legs pulled up and he came up to me, gave me a little lick/kiss and put his head down on my ankles. And just sat there while I cried. THIS post actually came to mind at that moment. Was he wanting or expecting something from me then? No. He was working on something else then. There was no reward. 

You can't downplay the relationship, yet, of course, a dog will do what he/she thinks she is expected to do to earn "something."


----------



## WaterBound

Maybe it is related to their drive, but I do have dogs that, "want to please me". My female wants attention and belly rubs. My males are EAGER to do things. They totally want to please me as opposed to just getting a food reward.


----------



## vicky2200

I don't think that ALL dogs want to please their "owners"*. However, I do believe that Ditto wants to please me (or doesn't want to displease me?) 
I think it depends on the relationship between the "owner" and the dog, the breed of the dog, the dogs past, and the dogs personality. Daisy is an Alaskan Husky. As she gets older, she wants to please me/doesn't want to displease me more often than she used to. As a puppy and at 1 and 2 years of age she didn't care if I was happy as long as she was happy. Dakota likes to please me but since he is older now sometimes it is more important to him that he pleases himself... On average, I think the GSD is a breed that wants to please. There are plenty of other breeds that are usually like this as well.


----------



## Mrs.K

Sometimes I wonder if they are not coercing us into pleasing them instead of them pleasing us. 

Most of us can't say NO when it comes to our dogs. 
If we see they are bored, we do something with them and think they want to please us while they are simply happy go lucky because we actually do something with them. 

I think that we please each other. They show us affection because we give them what they want.


----------



## Syaoransbear

I think it's a very, very rare dog that actually finds it rewarding to just please its human or pack. If anything it's a combination of not wanting to piss us off, and the rewards we give them can manifest into wanting to please us because when we are pleased, we give them things or treat them better.


----------



## Catu

I'm sorry for those that still don't know those dogs, I met mine only past year. He is the sixth dog of my own and I've trained dozens of other dogs and I used to think they didn't exist too.



Samba said:


> I have a bitch who pretty much lives to please and is ridiculously responsive to me. But, she doesn't behave this way because she would rather do something else but then chooses to please me instead. No, she does it because her breeding and genetics created a dog whose own self serving nature is rewarded by pack approval. What she does for me she is actually doing for herself by fulfilling her inner drive.


Yet I find this true. Dogs want to please us just as much as possible, because trully altruism doesn't exist, not in the animal world, not in the human world. How many christian people act "right" because it is what "god wants"?


----------



## codmaster

Dogs are animals - they will do what behavior is in their own best interest 9as they see it!).

Dogs can not think as humans might - "HMMM, if I do what I know he/she wants me to do then; they will be "pleased", so I will do it." That degree of abstract thinking is ridiculous to ascribe to a dog!


----------



## WaterBound

codmaster said:


> Dogs are animals - they will do what behavior is in their own best interest 9as they see it!).
> 
> Dogs can not think as humans might - "HMMM, if I do what I know he/she wants me to do then; they will be "pleased", so I will do it." That degree of abstract thinking is ridiculous to ascribe to a dog!


That totally DOES NOT APPLY to my males. My female is exactly as you described. She will do what behavior is in her best interest as she sees it.

However my males will listen to me even though they HATE what I want them to do. THEY WANT TO PLEASE ME. You can ascribe any reason you want for it be it operant conditioning or what not. No matter what they do things that THEY HATE because they want to please me. I DO NOT give them more rewards or anything. These two males just happen to be the kind of dogs that constantly want to please me.

I have had many dogs through the years and this kind of behavior has been very rare.

Dogs are also smarter than you give them credit for. You assume they have no abstract thought pattern. However my female although she DOES NOT want to please me or listen to me like the two males is constantly thinking. She is very clever and works things out. She knows that I want her to listen to me, but she prefers to do what she wants.

For example she does not like going outside without me. She prefers to do what she wants and can be stubborn. My males hate going outside without me too, but they seem to always OBEY. Even if they don't want to do it, they listen to me.

They also hate going into the shower, but the males will listen obediently in hopes that I am PLEASED. It is an emotional response. And YES DOGS have complex emotions and relationships that is why wild dogs have the highest kill ratio in the world at 50%. The emotions chemically bond them together in order to improve their lives. Humans use the SAME behavior forming complex social relationships based upon a hierarchical order.


----------



## WaterBound

Also how often do people or animals do things for their loved ones because it is in THEIR best interests??? If you said often, then you have NEVER TRULY LOVED SOMEONE. Not unconditionally that is...

They do nice things for their loved ones because they want to please them. Not because of selfish rewards. Otherwise that is just NOT LOVE.


----------



## PaddyD

This is a loooooong read but interesting.

The Truth About Dogs - Magazine - The Atlantic


----------



## codmaster

WaterBound said:


> *That totally DOES NOT APPLY to my males*. My female is exactly as you described. She will do what behavior is in her best interest as she sees it. *Heh! Heh!*
> 
> However my males will listen to me even though they HATE what I want them to do. THEY WANT TO PLEASE ME. You can ascribe any reason you want for it be it operant conditioning or what not. No matter what they do things that THEY HATE because they want to please me. I DO NOT give them more rewards or anything. These two males just happen to be the kind of dogs that constantly want to please me.
> 
> I have had many dogs through the years and this kind of behavior has been very rare.
> 
> Dogs are also smarter than you give them credit for. You assume they have no abstract thought pattern. However my female although she DOES NOT want to please me or listen to me like the two males is constantly thinking. She is very clever and works things out. She knows that I want her to listen to me, but she prefers to do what she wants.
> 
> For example she does not like going outside without me. She prefers to do what she wants and can be *stubborn*. My males hate going outside without me too, but they seem to *always OBEY*. Even if they don't want to do it, they listen to me. *ALWAYS? Exceptional reliability - that is great for you!*
> 
> They also hate going into the shower, but the males will listen obediently in hopes that I am PLEASED. It is an emotional response. And YES DOGS have complex emotions and relationships that is *why wild dogs have the highest kill ratio in the world at 50%.* The emotions chemically bond them together in order to improve their lives. Humans use the SAME behavior forming complex social relationships based upon a hierarchical order.


 
Is that *ALL *wild dogs or just the emotional ones that have a 50% kill rate? I.E. Dingos, African ones, Wolves, Coyotes, Jackels, etc.????? Does it matter what type of prey that they are after when they achieve their extremly high kill rate? I.E. Moose, Elk, Antelope, Zebra, etc. etc.?


It truly sounds like you have truly exceptional dogs - 100% reliability in doing whatever that you tell them (do you show in AKC Obedience? If not, then you should as it sounds like you OB Champions in the making).

And emotional dogs that are chemically bonded! Ones that just know what will please you and do it!

And to have dogs that will willingly take a shower with you when you ask - that is also very interesting. Do both of the males get in the shower together with you? What about the female?


----------



## codmaster

WaterBound said:


> Also how often do people or animals do things for their loved ones because it is in THEIR best interests??? If you said often, then you have NEVER TRULY LOVED SOMEONE. *Not unconditionally that is...*
> 
> *Can you love someone "Conditionally"?*
> 
> They do nice things for their loved ones because they want to please them. Not because of selfish rewards. Otherwise that is just NOT LOVE.


 
Interesting that you seem to know so much about a stranger that you have never met, isn't it?


Just for the heck of it, are you equating human emotions with that of animals? Sounds like you are doing just that. Have you ever seen your dogs cry when you told them that they had to do something that they didn't want to do (like a child that is)?


----------



## crackem

I get tired of these arguments too, like humans are so far and above a dog, of course a dog can't think in any capacity other than what will be rewarding for them, but humans somehow can?

I can argue people are the same way. Some work for a pay check cause it pleases them. Some work hard because they like the praise they get from others. Some do it because it makes someone close to them proud. Some do it because it makes them proud, and is ultimately rewarding for them to feel that way. Some do it because the hard work is better than the alternative, pissing off their boss or parents or teachers or spouse.

some will make huge sacrafices because they think it is "right" and that feeling of righteousness is rewarding to those people. If it wasn't they'd say **** it and move on. 

I don't think dogs are all that much different. and yes dogs have emotions, ever see one after it's best buddy dies? how about after when their owner doesn't come home? or when you pick up their favorite toy and tell them play time is over. I've seen some seriously "human" emotions in every one of those situations.

Of course not every dog will display them in every situation, at least not on a level we can see. But then a lot of people don't show all that much emotion about things either.


----------



## jakes mom

PaddyD said:


> This is a loooooong read but interesting.
> 
> The Truth About Dogs - Magazine - The Atlantic


Paddy

Those first few paragraphs were so funny - and so true.:laugh:

That's it then :shocked: We've got to face it - dogs are smarter than your average human 

_______________
Sue


----------



## jakes mom

codmaster said:


> Dogs are animals - they will do what behavior is in their own best interest 9as they see it!).
> 
> Dogs can not think as humans might - "HMMM, if I do what I know he/she wants me to do then; they will be "pleased", so I will do it." That degree of abstract thinking is ridiculous to ascribe to a dog! I don't see how any of us can say that is correct or incorrect - we are not dogs


Don't most people also do what's in their best interest. 

Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/181444-so-amazing.html

Personally I think it's a two way street. We love our dogs and do what we can to make them happy - and in return they do the same. I really don't see the need to have a master-servant relationship. 

As I see it, we all want to live in peace and harmony. I have no desire to be in charge of my dogs - I am automatically. They can't live without me - if I leave the house and don't return - they will die - it's as simple as that. So why wouldn't they want to keep me happy if they can - and I think they're pretty smart at figuring how to do it. As you put it - it's in their own best interest. 

I think dogs are a lot better at understanding us, than we are at understanding them. Things are improving on the side of us humans though - thanks to all the research done into dog behaviour and body language. 

But I also don't think we should abuse the fact that they rely on us so much. We expect them to respect us and they deserve the same in return. I agree with another poster on this forum (not sure where the exact quote is). If we train our dogs as we would our kids, with positive methods, we won't go far wrong. Interrupt the behaviour we don't want and redirect to the behaviour we do. Not that I'm that perfect, but I do try my best.

Considering they don't speak our language - and we don't speak theirs - I think we have an amazing relationship. We have the normal house rules, such as no dogs on beds, no counter surfing etc. but we don't do NILIF. When we have to go out in a hurry - which we do on occasions because he have a big family, the dogs have never got on the beds or helped themselves to anything off the table - even though they easily could and we wouldn't correct them. Why is that - could it be to please us?

If Jake brings us his ball and wants to play - sometimes we will - sometimes we won't and I tell him to lie down and he does - no reward and no punishment, he does it because I asked him to, even though he really wants to play. I've always trained the dogs, but really only to do things that are necessary for us all to live in harmony. 

I also think we should be more accepting of the dogs we have, and not what we want them to be. Our Dalmation never gave us an ounce or trouble, but grief was she stubborn. Bless her. 
______________
Sue


----------



## codmaster

jakes mom said:


> Don't most people also do what's in their best interest. *yup!*
> 
> Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/181444-so-amazing.html
> 
> Personally I think it's a two way street. We love our dogs and do what we can to make them happy - and in return they do the same. I really don't see the need to *have a master-servant relationship*. *Boss/Employee? Someone HAS to make a decision sometimes - is it you or them in your case? You let the dogs decide what they want to do and when??*
> 
> As I see it, we all want to live in peace and harmony. *I have no desire to be in charge of my dogs - I am automatically (????????????????) *. They can't live without me - if I leave the house and don't return - they will die - it's as simple as that. So why wouldn't they want to keep me happy if they can - and I think they're pretty smart at figuring how to do it. As you put it - *it's in their own best interest. *
> * EXACTLY MY POINT! THANKS YOU!*
> I think dogs are a lot better at understanding us, than we are at understanding them. Things are improving on the side of us humans though - thanks to all the research done into dog behaviour and body language.
> 
> But I also don't think we should abuse the fact that they rely on us so much. We expect them to respect us and they deserve the same in return. I agree with another poster on this forum (not sure where the exact quote is). If we train our dogs *as we would our kids, with positive methods (A DEBATABLE APPROACH!), we won't go far wrong. Interrupt the behaviour we don't want and redirect* to the behaviour we do. Not that I'm that perfect, but I do try my best.
> 
> Considering they don't speak our language - and we don't speak theirs - I think we have an amazing relationship. We have the normal house rules, such as no dogs on beds, no counter surfing etc. but we don't do NILIF. When we have to go out in a hurry - which we do on occasions because he have a big family, the dogs have never got on the beds or helped themselves to anything off the table - even though they easily could and we wouldn't correct them. Why is that - could it be to please us? *HOW ABOUT THAT THEY HAVE LEARNED IT IS NOT IN THEIR BEST INTEREST TO DO SO?*
> 
> If Jake brings us his ball and wants to play - sometimes we will - sometimes we won't and I tell him to lie down and he does - no reward and no punishment, he does it because I asked him to, even though he really wants to play. I've always trained the dogs, but really only to do things that are necessary for us all to live in harmony.
> 
> I also think we should be more accepting of the dogs we have, and not what we want them to be. Our Dalmation never gave us an ounce or trouble, but grief was she stubborn. Bless her.
> ______________
> Sue


 
Sounds like you have an interesting relationship with your dogs! 

Mine is much simpler - I am in charge and he does what i tell him to do or else there are consequences that are not in his best interest (and I hope that he always realizes this). Very simple!


----------



## jakes mom

codmaster said:


> Sounds like you have an interesting relationship with your dogs!
> 
> Mine is much simpler - I am in charge and he does what i tell him to do or else there are consequences that are not in his best interest (and I hope that he always realizes this). Very simple!


 
I suppose we do have a interesting relationship, and we're all happy with it. Our dogs (only Jake at the moment) do as we tell them without the need for consequences. We have a great relationship. They were taught boundaries and the house rules and those are reinforced through regular use. 

Perhaps I haven't explained very well so I'll make it crystal clear. Quite honestly we rarely have to tell them what to do. Dogs are creatures of habit - the door knocks - they bark - they go automatically to the living room door - I open the door - they go in - they come out when and if I open the door. 

I lift my hand in a upward direction - they get up. They let me know if they need to toilet. They do not pull on the leash. They come when I call them. They do not jump up people. I point to where I want them to go and lie and they go. They do not beg for food - they wait until we have finished - and hope we've left something. They are not food aggressive. They come to bed with us and sleep on the floor. Is that clear enough?

They do all that and more because they want to please us and enjoy being with us and not because they are afraid of the consequences.



> Don't most people also do what's in their best interest. *yup!*


This post from crackam says it all 



> I get tired of these arguments too, like humans are so far and above a dog, of course a dog can't think in any capacity other than what will be rewarding for them, but humans somehow can?
> 
> I can argue people are the same way. Some work for a pay check cause it pleases them. Some work hard because they like the praise they get from others. Some do it because it makes someone close to them proud. Some do it because it makes them proud, and is ultimately rewarding for them to feel that way. Some do it because the hard work is better than the alternative, pissing off their boss or parents or teachers or spouse.
> 
> some will make huge sacrafices because they think it is "right" and that feeling of righteousness is rewarding to those people. If it wasn't they'd say **** it and move on.
> 
> I don't think dogs are all that much different. and yes dogs have emotions, ever see one after it's best buddy dies? how about after when their owner doesn't come home? or when you pick up their favorite toy and tell them play time is over. I've seen some seriously "human" emotions in every one of those situations.
> 
> Of course not every dog will display them in every situation, at least not on a level we can see. But then a lot of people don't show all that much emotion about things either.


You didn't answer to the following:

Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...o-amazing.html
_____________________
Sue


----------



## codmaster

jakes mom said:


> I suppose we do have a interesting relationship, and we're all happy with it. Our dogs (only Jake at the moment) do as we tell them without the need for consequences. We have a great relationship. They were taught boundaries and the house rules and those are reinforced through regular use.
> 
> Perhaps I haven't explained very well so I'll make it crystal clear. Quite honestly we *rarely (when would you have to actually tell them what to do - i.e. when would your dogs be unable to reason out what you want so they can do it to please you?) * have to tell them what to do. Dogs are creatures of habit - the door knocks - they bark - they go automatically to the living room door - I open the door - they go in - they come out when and if I open the door.
> 
> *I lift my hand in a upward direction* - *they get up*.
> *What would they do if they were already "up" (I will assume you mean standing up) and you lifted your hand? Would they "know" that they are already "up" and not worry or get all stressed out becayuse they couldn't please you? *
> 
> *And does this work with either hand? Dogs smart enought to know what you meant by using either hand?*
> 
> 
> 
> They let me know if they need to toilet. *Do they use one?* They do not pull on the leash. *I am surprised that you even use a leash.* They come when I call them. They do not jump up people. I point to where I want them to go and lie and they go. They do not beg for food - they wait until we have finished - and hope we've left something. They are not food aggressive. They come to bed with us and sleep on the floor. Is that clear enough?
> 
> *Absolutely clear, thank you! And you seem to have perfectly behaved dogs! How great for you.*
> 
> They do all that and more *(MORE than this!)* because they want to please us and enjoy being with us and not because they are afraid of the consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> This post from crackam says it all
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't answer to the following:
> 
> Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...o-amazing.html
> _____________________
> Sue


BTW, the link you showed above directed me to the home page of the site. Maybe you can take a look and fix the link. *Hint:* the three little periods might not be correct to use, maybe. Might be something missing - just a thought.

That is the reason that I couldn't answer "to the following".


----------



## jakes mom

Hi Codmaster

Sorry about that, but it was the correct link in my original post 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/181444-so-amazing.html

I want to get my dog up from lying down, because he always tends to lie where I want to be. Why would I want him to get up from a standing position? 

As a matter of interest we don't have a perfectly behaved dog - far from it - we have a dog with major problems -most of which we have sorted - some we will never be able to sort - we accept him for what he is. 

I have explained before that he suffers from psychomotor seizures, currently under control with medication. If he has a 'turn' he is very fearful of everything - including us sometimes - and he gets confused about what we need him to do. He also suffers from OCD - which with patience we are getting through. 
_______________
Sue


----------



## codmaster

jakes mom said:


> Hi Codmaster
> 
> Sorry about that, but it was the correct link in my original post
> 
> *Wonder who chnged it?*
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/181444-so-amazing.html
> 
> I want to get my dog up from lying down, because he always tends to lie where I want to be. Why would I want him to get up from a standing position?
> You wouldn't I would guess - just asked what he would think to do?
> As a matter of interest we don't have a perfectly behaved dog - far from it - we have a dog with major problems -most of which we have sorted - some we will never be able to sort - we accept him for what he is.
> 
> I have explained before that he suffers from psychomotor seizures, currently under control with medication. If he has a 'turn' he is very fearful of everything - including us sometimes - and he gets confused about what we need him to do. He also suffers from OCD - which with patience we are getting through.
> _______________
> Sue


 
Just curious as to what your dog would think he should do if you gave him an "UP" signal if he were already up. Sounded like he would know what to do.


----------



## codmaster

BTW, Sue,

Here is the original - note the extra ..'s!

*Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest 
**http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...o-amazing.html*
*_____________________
Sue *


----------



## jakes mom

jakes mom said:


> Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/181444-so-amazing.html


BTW Codmaster 

This was my original post #69 - and you still haven't answered the question. 

I admit I must have got the link wrong in my second post, ok. Are you satisfied now? 
____________
Sue


----------



## codmaster

jakes mom said:


> BTW Codmaster
> 
> This was my original post #69 - and you still haven't answered the question.
> 
> I admit I must have got the link wrong in my second post, ok. Are you satisfied now?
> ____________
> Sue


Yes, thank you.


Guess I saw your web site reference for readers to try to use in your second original post, must have missed the fact that you had posted a different correct one earlier. And I would still wonder how your url reference got the extra ..'s in it that made it wrong?

But, I will now try your URL once again to see if it now works and then I will see how best to answer your question about how some dog acted in their own best interest. I haven't yet seen the web site, of course, but I would trust that it has to do with a dog obeying their owner commands even when they don't really want to!


----------



## codmaster

jakes mom said:


> BTW Codmaster
> 
> This was my original post #69 - and you still haven't answered the question.
> 
> I admit I must have got the link wrong in my second post, ok. Are you satisfied now?
> ____________
> Sue


 
Ok sue,

I will now answer your question as i was finally able to see the YouTube video that you tried to post a couple of times. Thanks for telling me that you posted the right reference to it in an older post (#69) so I could use that one rather than the incorrect one that you posted in your later post.


Maybe what you can tell me is what does one pack member trying to help another DOG have to do with the discussion topic of "Do our dogs want to please us?".

I couldn't see any connection between the two topics. 

Now I am assuming that you do realize that many species seem to have ingrained in their genes the ability and desire to do things that seem to be good for the species even though dangerous and not so good perhaps for any individual of that species, right? 

Would you also include in your argument what a Mom dog does for her puppies? That is also tough on some dogs sometimes and also truly heroic, just like the dog saving another dog from traffic - but it is equally irrelavant to the discussion topic of "Does our dog want to please us (human owners)".

Anyway, have a nice day.


----------



## WendyDsMom

My Kayla was built to please.

Wendy... not so much. Training is fun because she is not food motivated - and has the attention span of a gnat. Lucky for me she loves cheese.

Bailey - anything for food. Nothing for praise.

So not all dogs are "eager to please"


----------



## Mr Shepherd

I must admit, that I think most dogs want to please their owners! Treating them as the beautiful animals that they are and providing them a solid training and definite rules most dogs are a wonderful pet!


----------



## crackem

codmaster said:


> Would you also include in your argument what a Mom dog does for her puppies? That is also tough on some dogs sometimes and also truly heroic, just like the dog saving another dog from traffic - but it is equally irrelavant to the discussion topic of "Does our dog want to please us (human owners)".
> 
> Anyway, have a nice day.


It's not irrelavant at all. You're claiming that dogs can't think, grasp, or comprehend beyond what gives them an immediate pleasure reward. These examples show otherwise or at least provide an argument for it. hardly irrelavant.

So you explain it away as being hardwired? because pulling a dog out of traffic comes in very hand i'm sure. Or else you'd have to admit that dogs or this certain dog reasoned his way thru higher learning that cars are in fact dangerous, I doubt nature hardwired cars and traffic into their brains as being a natural predator and recognized the danger and saved another. That or he was just acting out of selfishness and saw a wounded animal and wanted it for lunch thus doing what pleases itself.

and you also try and pass it off as different because some examples are dog to dog and you require dog to human because of the oft agrued point that dogs certainly don't see us as other dogs. yet studies show that animals of all sorts of species that are raised with animals of another species (including humans) from birth on recognize and identify with that foreign species as being the same. 

Dogs are so much more than yes and no give me my food and toys cause that's what pleases me type animals. It's a shame some can't see that. It certainly comes in handy for training some things, but it's hardly the end of a relationship when it comes to humans and dogs. unless of course that's all you make it.


----------



## jakes mom

codmaster said:


> *Dogs are animals - they will do what behavior is in their own best interest 9as they see it!).*
> 
> Dogs can not think as humans might - "HMMM, if I do what I know he/she wants me to do then; they will be "pleased", so I will do it." That degree of abstract thinking is ridiculous to ascribe to a dog!


My comment below was in response to your comment above. 



jakes mom said:


> *Perhaps you tell me how this dog was acting in his own best interest *
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/181444-so-amazing.html


_________
Sue


----------



## codmaster

crackem said:


> It's not irrelavant at all. You're claiming that dogs can't think, grasp, or comprehend beyond what gives them an immediate pleasure reward. These examples show otherwise or at least provide an argument for it. hardly irrelavant.
> 
> So you explain it away as being hardwired? because pulling a dog out of traffic comes in very hand i'm sure. Or else you'd have to admit that dogs or this certain dog reasoned his way thru higher learning that cars are in fact dangerous, I doubt nature hardwired cars and traffic into their brains as being a natural predator and recognized the danger and saved another. That or he was just acting out of selfishness and saw a wounded animal and wanted it for lunch thus doing what pleases itself. *"Save the pack instinct!!!!!!!!!" *
> 
> *What does that have to do with a dog "obeying" obedience commands because "they just live to pleae us"???????*
> 
> and you also try and pass *it* off as different because some examples are dog to dog and you require dog to human because of the oft agrued point that dogs certainly don't see us as other dogs. yet studies show that animals of all sorts of species that are raised with animals of another species (including humans) from birth on recognize and identify with that foreign species as being *the same*. *So dogs and humans are the same! That would explain your reasoning, I guess.*
> 
> Dogs are so much more than yes and no give me my food and toys cause that's what pleases me type animals. *It's* a shame some can't see that. *It *certainly comes in handy for training some things, but *it's* hardly the end of a relationship when it comes to humans and dogs. unless of course that's all you make *it*.


 
*What is "It"?*


----------



## flynbyu2

A very fine line on this one.

IMO, dogs may not really want to please us, but they certainly don't want to dis-please us.

Cats are amoral and could care less what reaction their actions cause. Dogs are VERY sensitive to our reactions.


----------



## codmaster

flynbyu2 said:


> A very fine line on this one.
> 
> IMO, dogs may not really want to please us, but they certainly don't want to dis-please us.
> 
> Cats are amoral and could care less what reaction their actions cause. Dogs are VERY sensitive to our reactions.


 
Most cats, very true!

Our neighbors cat must think he is a dog! Everytime I go out and he is there, he comes trotting over to me and actually will roll on his belly for a belly rub!!! 

Never seen a cat like him. He will even try to come up to me when i am walking our 90 lb male GSD, who is really not quite sure what to make of this cat! Funny to watch them though (we don't let them get too very close)! Not sure of my dog's reaction if the cat would bolt away!


----------



## harmony

selzer said:


> Nah, I feed my dogs at night when I bring them in, and in the morning when I let them out. They do not have to sit or wait or speak or down for their food, that is theirs.
> 
> I train with threats through basic obedience and puppy classes, but before our next class, I have pretty much weaned them. My dogs get goodies, a neck bone or chicke quarter or pig ear, when they are crated for the night. They do not have to do anything special for it.
> 
> The work for the most part for the praise I give them. They want to hear me all happy with them. Cujo too, he gets all excited to do something.
> 
> I truly think that the dog wants to please me.
> 
> If you have not experienced the bond with a dog that really wants to please, I feel a bit sorry for you.
> 
> I know that the question was posed in such a way to make those of us who believe this to be too afraid to speak out. All that crap about a fable -- the question was posed with the proper answer inbedded. But I won't play that game though.
> 
> My dogs DO want to please me and are pretty good at it. I do not shower them with rewards, but I do praise them verbally and pet them.


 

gosh, I don't know but I wonder if we know each other?


----------



## Jo_in_TX

My GSD - loves to please me.

My shih tzu - loves me to please her.


----------



## Zeeva

Mine just want the treat in my hand. For sure!


----------



## selzer

harmony said:


> gosh, I don't know but I wonder if we know each other?


Could be.


----------

