# Puppy is not very friendly to strangers



## arroyotello503 (Jan 6, 2014)

I have a 5 month old male Shepherd and I am concerned for he is beginning to develop signs of aggression,I think. He does not do to well when it comes to meeting strangers. When we go on walks he barks at EVERYBODY he sees. There has even been some growling involved. The problem gets worse when he is at home. Whenever anybody comes over, he quickly reacts by barking and growling especially to children. There is no small children at home so he does not have much socialization with them. I know that this breed is known to be extremely protective and I don't mind that, but I am concerned that this will lead to bigger issues later on. I don't know how to handle the situation this is my first time owning the breed. He does well with other dogs. I have take him to puppy socialization classes and he does fairly well with dogs and people there and at parks. I take him everywhere I can and the problem mainly seems to be at home. 
He was a very shy and timid puppy I got him at 8 weeks. Could it just be a fear phase he is going through or is he developing signs of aggression?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I doubt this is a phase , especially since "He was a very shy and timid puppy I got him at 8 weeks." The best advice anyone could give is to find an honest and knowledgeable trainer so that you can manage the dog to the best of his and your ability. The aggression is not protection -- only his self protection , fear . He is what he was at 8 weeks . 
unfortunately you have a long and hard road ahead of you -- you must be realistic "he quickly reacts by barking and growling especially to children. There is no small children at home so he does not have much socialization with them" 

prevention - prevent liability to yourself and danger to children --


----------



## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

From where did you get your puppy?


----------



## arroyotello503 (Jan 6, 2014)

I got him from a breeder up in the state of Washington. He came from good parents, both AKC registered and I got to meet them. They were both very well behaved but the mother had a more timid personality like him, but she was definitely not aggressive.


----------



## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

That he does "okay" at class is a sign of hope in my book. Get ready to invest, invest, invest in the next year. Keep him in classes and work with the best trainer you can find and afford. Think about doing a few private lessons as well if you can. I have a bit of a wild child (not aggressive mean just wild) and private lessons were very very helpful with someone who knows the protection breeds.

My mantra is to invest heavily in the first year or two to get the best payoff in terms of a manageable dog and good companion.

Also crate train him!!!!


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree with Carmspack. I am curious how the breeder raised the litter. Your pup's behavior points to minimal socialization during the time he was at the breeder. His basic personality has formed by now so all you do now is try to get the best out of him by gently exposing him, making sure he cannot hurt anyone especially when cornered or feeling cornered.
It is very hard to turn a shy pup around after twelve weeks of age.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agreed , this is going to be difficult . there seems to be a genetic basis "but the mother had a more timid personality like him"


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Found this site recently and think it is relevant. Explains some perspectives on fearful dogs etc
Fearfulness in Dogs: Find Out How To Help Your Dog Enjoy Life Without Fear

Discussion on fear periods in young dogs with Michael Ellis from Leerburg.





Tyler Muto - YouTube A real good trainer with minimum effort on youtube 

I wrote this up in another thread. Might as well post it here and not try to rewrite. 

""When dogs bark at visitors they end up being the center of attention. You don't want that. You want to show the dog the visitor is there to meet you and the dog is shown he is not really involved as it is human business. 

It's good getting them used to going to a place, it's bed or another room and staying there when a visitor arrives. When the visitor has entered and sits down let the dog out of it's position and it should go and check put the person. Important for the visitor to continue to ignore the dog for a while until he gets comfortable. 

Also go through the routine of ringing the door bell and knocking over and over with the dog when there is no visitor at all. Open the door over and over to get him totally used to the noise of the door. Basically his behavior has built up over time so you now need to desensitize him to all noise associated with the door. 

You may find the dog acting nervous around the door when it's open. In which case it's good to get him to sit and not allowed to cross the border. You go outside, come back in a few times. Then bring him out on leash and then back again a load of times. Bring treats and feed when the dog is calm. You start to show the dog the boundary to the house is not a source of stress.""


----------



## ozmo (Oct 1, 2013)

Hey there,

I'v had the same issue with my OZ since I got him at the age of 3 months, mean SOB.. my wife joked it was hitlers dog reincarnated.

He was total opposite of shy or timid though, I couldn't, and still cant see him being fearful..more like brave and bold and over-confident.. solid nerves too, we sit and watch fireworks together, he loves vacuums, and my wifes hair-dryer... hows yours with those things??

He would lunge at people and bark on walks, ran after the mailman after he got out of the house stalking him in the windows, ran right up to him and started barking viciously at the age of 5 months..

I had him off leash in my neighbourhood at 7months at 10:00PM, and he spotted two teenage girls and ran right after them..( I never saw them) scared me ****less, poor girls were screaming for their lives, and oz cornered them and was jumping up and down as if someone had him trained in shutzhund....no biting.

Man o man, I knew I was in for a treat with this special guy.. lol

Anyway, fast forward he is 15 months right now and I have done a lot of socializing ESPECIALLY at dog parks.. introduced him to a lot of dog owners, doesn't care for them at all..more like don't touch me, I just want to sniff your dogs ass and wrestle. I also walk him in conservation parks and have him off leash now., he knows to HEEL when people walk by, or approach us and he just stays on high alert.. he has become very obedient and trustworthy over time.

He is still very territorial though, when someone walks by the house.. EVERYBODY KNOWS... he goes bananas.. I like that quality though, my wife.. nope. If new people/strangers come in... its a 1 minute bark session... and he lies down with his eyes glued, sitting in the corner where I taught him to sit in... one sudden move and he's UP...(ask my drunk friend who gave me a drunken hug...) lol

There is a cool website on german shepherds and different bloodlines and their uses, working lines, personality traits used for breeding, some specifically for aggression (these dogs would be used at borderlines in Europe) etc... I believe every dog has great qualities and an individual purpose.. my last American bloodline gsd was a 130lb lapdog that would lick the person knocking on the other end of the door..

Give it some time, and do a lot of obedience work and have total control of him.. stop making him think he has to protect you all the time, maybe that's what he is trying to do.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

visit this thread and read some of the other links 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d-article-mistakes-behavior-modification.html


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

I'd start breaking this habit like now. If you have a stubborn dog like I have that doesnt care at all how she's corrected it makes it worse. 
I use a 3 way correction collar. It has a beep mode. A vibration mode. And a shock mode. When I first got my baby I used vibration. But anymore she thinks that's a game. So I have it set to shock on the lowest setting. So it feels like just getting a simple static shock like we get. Use it right when you see the change in behavior. Also..start taking your dog for walks with other dogs. Just use a muzzle with yours to prevent fights. He/she has a high anxiety level around other dogs that needs broke. And if turn dog can see not everything wants to hurt you or him he will learn to lower that anxiety. With my dog when she was a baby and started to show that anxiety I forced her to meet new dogs instead of preventing her from it. She loves other dogs now.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

halo2013 said:


> I'd start breaking this habit like now. If you have a stubborn dog like I have that doesnt care at all how she's corrected it makes it worse.
> I use a 3 way correction collar. It has a beep mode. A vibration mode. And a shock mode. When I first got my baby I used vibration. But anymore she thinks that's a game. So I have it set to shock on the lowest setting. So it feels like just getting a simple static shock like we get. Use it right when you see the change in behavior. Also..start taking your dog for walks with other dogs. Just use a muzzle with yours to prevent fights. He/she has a high anxiety level around other dogs that needs broke. And if turn dog can see not everything wants to hurt you or him he will learn to lower that anxiety. With my dog when she was a baby and started to show that anxiety I forced her to meet new dogs instead of preventing her from it. She loves other dogs now.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You were using a shock collar on a puppy at what age?


----------



## Redberry (Jul 22, 2013)

I Recommend this book.. Explains in detail "bravado" stage in puppy's development, i wouldn't worry too much, its normal, his protective nature is kicking in.. but does need work so it doesn't become a bad habit/ problem...keep treats nearby, every time he growls/barks, stares at someone-distract him, then praise and reward for attention, when at home and he barks at strange noises allow few barks then say "thank you" and distract.. Good luck with your little protector  


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

What this puppy is exhibiting is not normal and not desirable.

It may be common because there seem to be so many dogs with less than good temperament.

this dog has problems which could seriously affect the future for self and for the owner . 

reviewed the book - mmm -- written for a grade 6 level --- already spotting errors very early on which does not bode well for advice coming further along the way. Author says at age 7 weeks the male GSD puppy should be around 20 pounds , the female closer to 16 !!! I hope not . Later on they refer to a "lush" coat -- Later still they say a male will be 85 to 100 pounds on average .
how about this "most GSD are not mentally grown up until 3 or 4 years old and should be on leash till then" 

in the bravado section - all that verbiage could have been reduced to one word -- distraction. The suggestion is to turn the dog away from what she fears. 
wow 



 This book was written by a Vet??? This book needed three authors ????


this dog was bought as a shy pup, from a mother who was similar , shy -- so there may be aspects which can not be corrected , and have to be trained with the assistance of someone who has experience and credentials and the dog very very carefully managed in a preventive , risk reducing way.


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

halo2013 said:


> I'd start breaking this habit like now. If you have a stubborn dog like I have that doesnt care at all how she's corrected it makes it worse.
> I use a 3 way correction collar. It has a beep mode. A vibration mode. And a shock mode. When I first got my baby I used vibration. But anymore she thinks that's a game. So I have it set to shock on the lowest setting. So it feels like just getting a simple static shock like we get. Use it right when you see the change in behavior. Also..start taking your dog for walks with other dogs. Just use a muzzle with yours to prevent fights. He/she has a high anxiety level around other dogs that needs broke. And if turn dog can see not everything wants to hurt you or him he will learn to lower that anxiety. With my dog when she was a baby and started to show that anxiety I forced her to meet new dogs instead of preventing her from it. She loves other dogs now.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Completely disagree with this, especially for fear aggression. Corrections because they show fearful behavior/stress signals at what they are afraid of will eliminate cues needed but not the fear. You are setting the dog up to not communicate but instead move forward to acting.

OP, locate a trainer/behaviorist, experienced with GSD, working breeds and aggression. If possible, go for private classes. You will be trained as well as your dog.


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

You can disagree all you want I've been training dogs for almost 5 years. And have been very successful. Keep babying your dogs fear and watch how much worse the problem becomes. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

halo2013 said:


> You can disagree all you want I've been training dogs for almost 5 years. And have been very successful. Keep babying your dogs fear and watch how much worse the problem becomes.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I used treats for Xena's fear of strangers, nothing was made worse. She used to pee, lay down in the pee and shake and drool when strangers came over. Should I have shocked her? I think e-collars have their place but I wouldn't use it on a scared dog.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

more experience xxx's -- corrections , especially one given by a novice owner overwhelmed with the problems and with poor timing , and with the other dog not being a post , at this point probably also reacting will be adding fuel to the fire and create more , deeper problems.

good advice in the link provided in this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d-article-mistakes-behavior-modification.html


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Well then that's no ones fault but the owner who doesn't pay attention. When your trying to fix a problem you pay attention. 
Correction collars set up and used correctly work very well. No different then owners who paddle their animals for biting or chewing. Except the collar doesn't link you to the correction. My dog is by no means anywhere near afraid of me. In fact we are almost in separable. So. Call it what you want. I took a fear aggressive dog used proven techniques and shes so well behaved even the people that was gonna put is shocked. 

But everyone has their own method. I chose not pampering fear. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

No Sara don't shock a dog if your.not.comfortable. but using treats? Your rewarding her for being afraid. Like I said. Using is correctly is why it worked. Sound, vibrate, and shock. I started out using sound and vibrate on her. She over came alot of fears with that. Its called communication. Now that she's huge and is nothing but weight. When ashes.jumping on ground toddlers and plowing then over she gets a level one shock. Which is nothing more then the static you feel pulling clothes out of the dryer. I know because i wouldn't do anything to.her that I wouldn't do to myself. So I shocked myself with the collar. But like i said. Using it correctly. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

halo2013 said:


> No Sara don't shock a dog if your.not.comfortable. but using treats? Your rewarding her for being afraid. Like I said. Using is correctly is why it worked. Sound, vibrate, and shock. I started out using sound and vibrate on her. She over came alot of fears with that. Its called communication. Now that she's huge and is nothing but weight.* When ashes.jumping on ground toddlers and plowing then over she gets a level one shock*. Which is nothing more then the static you feel pulling clothes out of the dryer. I know because i wouldn't do anything to.her that I wouldn't do to myself. So I shocked myself with the collar. But like i said. Using it correctly.


Why do you allow this to happen in the first place? 


All dogs are different, what works for one isn't going to work for another. 
I agree with Carmen, the link she posted is very informative....


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

I don't agree with straight correction collars. But mine is a 3 way collar. 

I live in an apartment complex and a lady has. Dog that's aggressive like really bad. I been training her dog with that very same collar. Making him walk with me.and my dog with a muzzle. Holding him.so when new dogs want to just smell him and do what dogs do gather information thru their nose he can see they aren't trying to hurt him. I've been seeing this dog for roughly 2 weeks and hes made a nice turn around from what he was.

Our land lord wanted that dog gone. Its not just holding the button in on the highest setting its understand where then dog is at mentally and knowing how to correct it. I went to school for animal.psychology. I wouldn't just torture a dog because I'm to lazy to train another way. I use alot of different training methods. 

I've just found for fear aggression this works best because its safe no one is in the middle getting bit from fight break ups or nipping for fear of people. It redirects your dogs mind. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I did not reward her for being afraid... I used them to show her that strangers were not that scary. I gave her treats for not bolting from the room or shutting down when people came over, just gave them to her constantly on the other side of the room where she was comfortable so eventually I could have people toss treats in her direction to reward her for approaching them. We worked it up to where they were just dropping the treats right in front of them, and it took 7 months but you would never know she used to be afraid. 

I just want to say again I don't think e-collars are bad. I just don't think it is appropriate in this case. Just not the tool I would use for this in this dog.


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Why does anyone allow their dog to to jump fences and get hit. Or eat its poop or dig up their yard?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Its not something you allow duh. Its another correction spot you have to correct. 
Like when you have kids. You may not allow it just because its happening. Its called correction. And I just said everyone has their own method. In didn't say go buy a collar and dive in. I simply Gave an idea. And since 95% of the united States doesn't use correction collars its not something I expected. But if they chose to try it **** I'd travel just to help them and their dog. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

_duh_? Setting the dog up to fail isn't what I'd suggest, especially when children are in the mix.


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

And that's awesome Sara. I'm glad that helped. My girl was never in her life socialized with people the lady I got her from said she was putting her to sleep. She was just 5 mths old! She said her vet told her she was hopeless to training
She fears dogs. Car rides. Bath tubs
People. Stares. Water. You name it she feared it. 
I told the lady cancel the appt. I said I want her name the price I'll pay it. She said just take her. I could see it in her face she had the potential. They just weren't getting thru to her. 
I bought her the 3 way, I instantly taught her the.communication part of the collar. She clicked with it. She. will be 1 in.march and shes like a different dog. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Onyx tell that to the people that still get to live with their dogs. If you want I can let them talk to you. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I did not read all the responses-

I would NEVER correct for fear aggression. All you achieve by that is removing the warning signals. Dog growls, so it gets a correction for growling. Great now the dog doesn't growl, it just goes straight to a bite.


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

You pay attention to more then just that. Dogs show warning signals long before they growl. Body posture, fascial expression, their tail, their fur. Growling.and biting are usually a dogs last resort. Because a lot of people never recognize the.body signs. I'll admit I used to never catch on to when a dog like that before it growled. But at that point its. anxiety is already escalated because all else failed. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

halo, where did you go to school for your profession?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> halo, where did you go to school for your profession?


I'm also wondering.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good grief - Halo you have not got enough experience nor knowledge to train someone elses dog ! The advice is not just poor, it is bad ---
If something goes wrong with the other dog in your apartment complex , and likely it will, you could be sued to smithereens .


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> I did not read all the responses-
> 
> I would NEVER correct for fear aggression. All you achieve by that is removing the warning signals. Dog growls, so it gets a correction for growling. Great now the dog doesn't growl, it just goes straight to a bite.


^^^^^ It's all about behavior modification. There are many techniques out there that can be used without raising the raising the risk of aggression. There is a reason the manufacturers warn against using e-collars for aggression. It's because if the dog is looking at what is making him react, he will associate the stim with that entity.

Only advice here is GET A GOOD TRAINER that can teach you the tools to manage this. IMO, aggression should never be approached by methods over the internet. Only by a reliable trainer who can see the reaction first hand.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I also wouldn't correct a dog for being afraid. Would you hit your kid because they were fearful of something? That doesn't get rid of their fear, they just hide the SIGNS of being fearful so they don't get hit. Inside they are still fearful. 

When one person says something and a bunch of people disagree, in most cases it's better to listen to the crowd. I'd get a trainer. Every dog is different and no this is NOT normal. Depending on your dogs nerves you can fix the problem entirely or just be able to manage it.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> I did not reward her for being afraid... I used them to show her that strangers were not that scary. I gave her treats for not bolting from the room or shutting down when people came over, just gave them to her constantly on the other side of the room where she was comfortable so eventually I could have people toss treats in her direction to reward her for approaching them. We worked it up to where they were just dropping the treats right in front of them, and it took 7 months but you would never know she used to be afraid.


Yes, this method works but it takes time but is most effective. Most people are too impatient to go to the root of the problem and want a quick fix. But all that is a band-aid covering a wound.


----------



## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I did not read all the responses-
> 
> I would NEVER correct for fear aggression. All you achieve by that is removing the warning signals. Dog growls, so it gets a correction for growling. Great now the dog doesn't growl, it just goes straight to a bite.


What an excellent point!


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Sanzone school in of dog training. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, I'm glad that you've already had your puppy in classes - continuing with them will be a big help. I had the opposite problem with my puppy: he is just so gregarious that he wouldn't leave guests alone. Nice, but too overbearing. I always keep him crated until he settles down when someone comes over, even now. When he was your puppy's age, I kept him beside me with a bone to chew on. This really helped get him in the routine I wanted from him - a friendly greeting, and then lying at my side quietly. It worked very well.

ETA: you have to get your guests on board for this to work. They have to know to totally ignore your pup! Good luck


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly ! "They have to know to totally ignore your pup! Good luck










don't force contact -- that is one of the pieces of advise in the behavioral thread -- keep the distance . Keep on going along your way , not having the dog focus on the problem and not having the source of the problem focus on the dog. When people see a shy pup , they , out of best intentions, want to be friendly , show the pup that it is okay to be social. Meanwhile they stare at the pup, keep advancing, lean forward and over , arm outstretched or darting in and out for a contact touch.
The socially pressured dog is overwhelmed and uncomfortable .


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I would continue with as many classes as you can. This not only solidifies training but the socialization with other dogs in the same area while working is good for concentration. I do not think using a correction collar for fear is a good. If you were afraid and felt pain every time you were afraid, that would not be conducive to training to not be afraid, if anything it would make it worse. Positive reinforcement and working such as Blanketback suggests works better to stop fear induced behavior. Some people who have taken classes with their own dogs feel that they are trainers and feel qualified to give advice but that advice should be taken with a grain of salt. Some things work for certain dogs and other things work for other dogs. Suggestions on this forum are from the posters point of view and may not always work with your dog but I find that positive reinforcement is the best place to start with fear abatement. Never stop training - it is a lifetime commitment.


----------



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm currently enrolled in 2 schools an online school with trainers that come to my house and a school in Philadelphia. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

halo2013 said:


> but using treats? Your rewarding her for being afraid.


Fear is an emotion, it's not behavior. You can use rewards (or punishment) to modify behavior, and you can create positive associations between "bad" or "scary" things that a dog is afraid of or situations that are stressful, by pairing those things with yummy food. That's called counter-conditioning, and it doesn't mean you're rewarding the dog for it's emotional state, but rather, you're trying to _change _it.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

halo2013 said:


> I'm currently enrolled in 2 schools an online school with trainers that come to my house and a school in Philadelphia.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sounds like it's working.


----------



## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

A friend of ours puppy was doing the same thing. They started with a trainer every Saturday....would take him to new places for 5 or 10 mins, end on a high note with lots of treats and positive reinforcement, built up to 30-40 min outings now go anywhere!!! The trainer said it was lack of confidence, so training, lots of play to build that confidence, and lots of positive fun rewards.... Built his confidence so that now nothing phases him! My daughter chased him the other day while playing tug....you would never have known he was once terrified of people, new objects and new places! Completely different dog...and his body language, posture and expression prove it....I would suggest finding a qualified working dog trainer. The first trainer we went to kept referring to our dogs as a "bully breed" she took the lead from my daughter over corrected a four month old puppy because of what peoples ideas of the breed are....the following trainer, the one that did wonders with our friends dog, has helped work him through his fear of trainers, and our dog after a couple of months now loves to go with us to see him and work with him... 

Good luck....a breeder that specializes or loves the breed...makes a world of difference! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Correcting a fearful response creates a whole new can of worms. Don't take away the only way your dog has to communicate with you. I made that mistake in the past and I created a dog that was a HUGE liability because he didn't have the option of communicating his discomfort or fear because I took it away. Showed him it was wrong to give warnings. So naturally he just started snapping cause there were no other options. Consult a behaviorist with experience handling fear aggression where they can diagnose the issue in person and get a feel for your dog. Things get lost over the internet and the wrong kind of advice can make things worse.


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

halo2013 said:


> Dogs show warning signals long before they growl.


They won't if they have been corrected for it.
Sheilah


----------



## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

carmspack said:


> exactly ! "They have to know to totally ignore your pup! Good luck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was one of the things or friends had to do and the trainer suggested as part of their work....it really does work wonders if done in a consistent manner. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

sit said:


> They won't if they have been corrected for it.
> Sheilah


The most severe dog bite I ever got was from a fear reactive dog that *thought* it was trapped and lunged for me with no warning. I was lucky to 'only' have some punctures and a slightly fractured wrist out of that one. I didn't blame the dog though, if I'd made more certain he knew he had a way to go, and he hadn't been so corrected in the past that he no longer gave any warnings to speak of, there probably wouldn't have been an issue. Fortunately the dog had his shots, and there wasn't a mandatory dog bite reporting law in effect in my area at the time, so the dog didn't get put down or suffer for it, and eventually lived a fairly happy life with owners who were willing to give him the space needed and keep others from scaring him like that, and passed away of old age some years later. (Just for reference, this was a German Shorthaired Pointer, and an Ecollar was used quite a bit on him, along with other harsh methods of punishments.)

Since then I've dealt with fear aggressive, and just outright aggressive dogs in other situations, and I just cannot imagine that shocking them or using corrections will help the situation at all. It's hard for me to see a dog wind up so shut down from fear that they are afraid to do ANYthing. 

BTW, the "Sanzone school" has some really negative reviews, is not a trainer of instructors or anything like that, and certainly not anything that would give you a degree. Also I read "I've been training dogs for almost 5 years. And have been very successful." and "I went to school for animal.psychology." and "I'm currently enrolled in 2 schools an online school with trainers that come to my house and a school in Philadelphia.". This story keeps changing, which makes me wonder what exactly is going on here. Also, it might be good to keep in mind that many of the people on this board have been training for ten, twenty, thirty years or more, so your five years are but a drop in the bucket. And when you have this many people disagreeing with you, then you need to step back and consider whether you just could be wrong about this. And with that, I'll drop the subject.

OP, I hope you can find a local trainer or behaviorist that will be able to help you out with your pup, as it can be tough to diagnose over the internet exactly what is going on and lay out the best plan for your pup. It's generally better for that to be done in person by a reputable trainer with experience in the the type of problem that you are having. It really sounds like you are going to want to use very gentle and positive methods for this dog, and build the confidence level up, rather than trying to use corrections which will likely lead to the dog shutting down completely. Good luck!


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *halo2013*
> _Dogs show warning signals long before they growl. _
> 
> They won't if they have been corrected for it.


 I don't know if I believe that if a dog is corrected for aggression it will stop showing warning signs... Because to me, there will always be a warning or an indication, (it may not be growling) that some things about to happen... ie; body posture, in their eyes, their ears, hackles, lip licking, etc...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree, Leesa. There are so many signs before the dog erupts.

But I did see it happen with Jax. She's a terrible resource guarder so I started taking away the toy when she growled. She somehow associated losing the toy with Sierra and quickly escalated from growling to a full out attack with no vocal warning. 

I did use an e-collar for Jax's dog aggression but it was under the guidance of a trainer with years of experience, titled dogs and a masters degree in animal science from Cornell AND in conjunction with behavior modification. The e-collar was NOT the primary tool...the LAT and BAT were.


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I do think that there are warning signs other than a growl that telegraph what a dog is "thinking" about doing. However, I have seen many dog that have had the growl corrected out of them and those other warning signs (stiffening of body, seeming to roll up on their toes, tightening of the muscles around the mouth and eyes, etc.) happen in the blink of an eye. It happens so quickly that the average pet owner misses it entirely. Or misreads it entirely. 
Sheilah


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

sit said:


> I do think that there are warning signs other than a growl that telegraph what a dog is "thinking" about doing. However, I have seen many dog that have had the growl corrected out of them and those other warning signs (stiffening of body, seeming to roll up on their toes, tightening of the muscles around the mouth and eyes, etc.) happen in the blink of an eye. It happens so quickly that the average pet owner misses it entirely. Or misreads it entirely.
> Sheilah


This is what I was thinking... If Eko is pushed past the growling point you will not get much other warning before a bite! It's a pretty clear, easy to understand for most everyone signal to back off.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I had a foster whose only warning was a flick of his ear and a glance over his shoulder. Once the growl is shut down, you've made a dangerous dog.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My first GSD would go straight from flattening ears to air snapping. Got to love those GSD ears!


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

A warning sign can be a split second before a bite. People act like it's so easy to read signs before a bite. Growling is the easiest sign to read. I wouldn't ever try to take that away.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've got a lot of mixed feelings about aggression and whether to correct or not to correct... And what I've seen over the years and have even dealt with..

When do you decide growling is acceptable???? Or I guess in everyones eyes it is and you just re-direct???


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

G-burg said:


> When do you decide growling is acceptable???? Or I guess in everyones eyes it is and you just re-direct???


I mostly do redirect the growling, but that doesn't mean I find it acceptable. It means that I'm acknowledging it, that's all. It totally depends on what prompted the growl. If it's guarding behavior, I redirect the dog to its crate. If it's territorial growling, I redirect to focusing on me. If it's something else, I look at what's going on with the dog. If the dog is fearful, I remove the threat to the dog - and then I know there's some weakness there, that needs to be worked on. That's JMO.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I guess another thing is.... not every dog is going to growl as a warning.. Have had several fosters like that.. so you do have to learn how to read body language, etc..


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I mostly do redirect the growling, but that doesn't mean I find it acceptable. It means that I'm acknowledging it, that's all. It totally depends on what prompted the growl. If it's guarding behavior, I redirect the dog to its crate. If it's territorial growling, I redirect to focusing on me. If it's something else, I look at what's going on with the dog. If the dog is fearful, I remove the threat to the dog - *and then I know there's some weakness there, that needs to be worked on*. That's JMO.


You still haven't said WHAT to do though. You re-direct, etc....but that doesn't fix the problem, just takes their mind off the current issue.

I really am in no place to offer advice in correcting/fixing true aggressive behavior...and I just don't think the internet is the best place for advice on this subject. There are so many factors and behaviors that can be easily missed by an owner, that only a good behaviorist/trainer could see in person....then get to know everything else about the dog, and make decisions from there on a plan moving forward. I always think it's so funny when people make 100% absolute observations on anything on the internet. I especially love the "is he purebred" threads....and all these people saying, "oh yeah..def shepherd." There is NO WAY to know that without pedigrees and parents. Yet, people are so certain based on a couple pics on the internet...same if someone says, "my pup was scared of _fill in the blank_." All of a sudden the dog is a nervy mess, will be a mess to manage, and the owner is going to have a 1000 problems. 

I also like the, "a show line does not and will never have the nerves to protect." I love this because there is a guy around here who's dog bit a man he was in a physical altercation with, perfect SchH protection arm bite....just makes me smile, because I guarantee if he had talked about the dog during training most would think/say "oh that showline would never protect....it's a _showline_." Or "SchH is a *sport*....none of those dogs could/would actually protect in real life."

Anyhow, I'm just as guilty of this as most people around here....just starting to think that all these absolutes based on one or two sentences are pretty confident for a quick story or pic on the internet.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, that's the full circle, lol. My air snapper was an adult when I got him, so who knows how much growling he did before he realized it got him nowhere. Same with your fosters. Who knows. But growling is a natural defense. It should mean, "Back off" and then what happens after that is up to the dog: fight or flight. Again, that's JMO.

ETA: Dani, there is no way to say exactly what to do, lol. It depends on the dog, and what's going on. Is it someone shoving unwanted petting? Easy fix, tell them to stop.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Yeah, that's the full circle, lol. My air snapper was an adult when I got him, so who knows how much growling he did before he realized it got him nowhere. Same with your fosters. Who knows. But growling is a natural defense. It should mean, "Back off" and then what happens after that is up to the dog: fight or flight. Again, that's JMO.
> 
> ETA: Dani, there is no way to say exactly what to do, lol. It depends on the dog, and what's going on. Is it someone shoving unwanted petting? Easy fix, tell them to stop.


Oh...I didn't mean to come off as picking on you. Just that that's kind of the point, on the internet there really isn't a way to tell someone how to handle these kinds of behaviors. It's really dependent on the dog, and you can't get a full picture of the dog unless you are there in real life, and have the experience/knowledge to not only know what you're looking at, but what to do about it.

To me, this is a great place to get advice like, "how can I shape this behavior, how can I teach this new thing, anyone else going through this health issue?" Etc...to me it isn't the place to try and fix aggression.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree Dani, but this is a great place to start if you're concerned about behaviors and you want to modify them. Take OP - maybe the guests in the house are cornering her puppy, trying to force interactions that the puppy clearly doesn't want. Maybe the puppy was already showing signs that you'd know mean "leave me alone" but OP missed. So now it's moved forward to growling. That's a clear sign to most, lol. Maybe this thread will help OP realize her puppy needs distance from the guests. It's not so much about giving perfect answers to "fix aggression" as it is to help people understand what could be contributing to the unwanted behavior. Once again, JMO.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

halo2013 said:


> I'd start breaking this habit like now. If you have a stubborn dog like I have that doesnt care at all how she's corrected it makes it worse.


I don't think that dogs are _"stubborn."_ they just have a different agenda than we do. 



halo2013 said:


> I use a 3 way correction collar. It has a beep mode. A vibration mode. And a shock mode. When I first got my baby I used vibration. But anymore she thinks that's a game. So I have it set to shock on the lowest setting. So it feels like just getting a simple static shock like we get. Use it right when you see the change in behavior.


I’m not a fan of using an Ecollar in this fashion for this problem. I've seen too many dogs that shut off the display of aggression, but still have the aggression be present, waiting for the right (meaning wrong) moment to come out. 

I also think that the OP's puppy is too young for an Ecollar. I don't like to go younger than six months. 




Sarah~ said:


> I think e-collars have their place but I wouldn't use it on a scared dog.


I think that an Ecollar, if used properly is a great tool for fearful or fear aggressive dogs. I suggest using the Ecollar to teach the recall and the sit. Neither has anything to do directly with this issue but they work to stop the problem. 

Here are two anecdotes about this. Http://www.loucastle.com/roma2 

Simon


----------



## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

G-burg said:


> I don't know if I believe that if a dog is corrected for aggression it will stop showing warning signs... Because to me, there will always be a warning or an indication, (it may not be growling) that some things about to happen... ie; body posture, in their eyes, their ears, hackles, lip licking, etc...


 True, but if you don't know how to properly manage your dogs fear aggression and lack the experience how will they know what signs to look for. Growling for example is pretty forward way of saying im uncomfortable back up and people misinterpret that blatant sign so how can they interpret much more subtle cues. I agree, if you know your dog you can still see the warning signs but for someone who doesn't have a clue what to look for and observe they can't possibly see it. Making the dog essentially unpredictable because the owners can't see the very subtle clues without professional help or learning to interpret their behavior and that becomes a trial and error stage (without proper guidance) and that time can be dangerous. One slip up and the game could be over.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I get it GSDluver!! 

And I actually had a nice response written about corrections and fear aggressive dogs and how it's worked and deleted it!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wish you hadn't! I love reading your posts!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

seems like the OP is long gone --


----------

