# HELP! dog to dog aggression in multidog household



## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

The short story is I have two intact male GSD’s (and one female corgi age 11). The older male is 3 ½, and the younger male is 1 ½. Every now and then my older male thinks it’s time to beat up on the younger. They could have been playing together an hour earlier and 99% of the time they seem to be getting along, but once every few days the older male will start growling and then grab the scruff of the younger one and growl and shake him. The younger dog is screaming and offering no resistance. The younger dog is not hurt - no blood that I can find. Sometimes if I can see an attack coming I can head it off by calling out his name or physically getting between the two, but if it’s already escalated I usually end up pulling off the older dog and putting him somewhere to cool off. The younger male has recently been to the vet for an infection on his tail (insect bite or tail gland infection), and this really seems to have escalated the frequency of attacks. I can understand that maybe the younger dog smells a little funny while he’s on medication – or the tail gland is releasing some sort of funny scent. Or maybe it’s just that the younger dog is maturing more and this is causing the reaction. For what it’s worth, the older dog has his BH, CD, and his canine good citizen. The younger dog is also in training and hopefully we’ll start competing next year. The only trigger I can see to the aggression (besides competing for a toy etc.), is that for whatever reason the younger dog will be acting very submissive and be cowering around the older dog. This behavior seems to bring on an attack. Or maybe the younger dog is sensing a buildup of aggression in the older dog that I just can’t see – but it doesn’t seem like it. I’ve tried to keep this sort of short – so please ask any questions if needed. I try to stay calm and firm during an attack – I’ll yell at the older dog briefly and pull him off – no alpha roll – then put him in timeout for 10-15 minutes. 
I guess I’d like to know if I’m handling this correctly? Is it just going to escalate from here or is there something I can do to stop this? My worst fears is that I would have to separate the dogs 24/7, but I will do that if I have to. 
I’m curious as to what others here have experienced with a multi-male dog household and how they’ve handled any aggression. Thanks for your help.
AMM


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I have a few questions so I can help you better.

How long has this been going on?

Do you practice NILIF and/or pack mentality?

How long and how many times do they get exercised? Together, apart?

How much one on one time do you spend with each of them?

Do they eat seperately or together?

Is the corgi spayed? Do a lot of their behaviors occur around her?


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## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

Hi,
Thanks for responding. I'll answer the best I can.

How long has this been going on? 
I'd say since the first of the year - but the frequency has increased.

Do you practice NILIF and/or pack mentality?
I try to, but sometimes I'm not consistant (like making them always sit before coming in the door).

How long and how many times do they get exercised? Together, apart? 
They have free run together of our small acerage (fenced). They are outside only when I'm outside (which is at least a few hours a day). We go to our dog club once a week for Schutzhund training. We have not been consistant about taking them on walks as we should be - I'm ashamed to say it's probably only once a month. We do have training/play time most evenings (although sometimes we miss), I'm the main trainer for the younger dog, and my husband trains the older dog. I'd say a training/play session lasts about 25min. We've tried training them together but it's hard to get them to focus that way - we usually train apart. My husband and I both work full time, so most weekdays they are in the house and the younger dog is confined to his crate while were gone - not the greatest situation I know...

How much one on one time do you spend with each of them? 
One on one is usually limited to the train/play time (25min), but my one to one time is usually limited to the younger dog.

Do they eat seperately or together?
They each eat in their crates (seperate).

Is the corgi spayed? Do a lot of their behaviors occur around her? 
She is spayed, and she's usually around when this happens, but then she's always usually around - I'll have to pay more attention. One thing to note though is that the older dog is always following her around, sniffing at her pee, licking at her mouth etc. The younger dog has started paying her more attention - like wanting to sniff at her pee etc. I hadn't thought about her role in this...interesting.

Another thing to note is that in May of this year the older dog was bred for the first time. His pups have been accepted into various guide dog and service dog organizations - so he's really quite a nice guy besides this one thing .

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay, here is my advice on what you should do:

It sounds to me like the dogs aren't getting enough exercise. Think about it. A dog has so much energy to burn, and if they don't get rid of it, then it gets pent up, the dog gets frustrated, and they will do and things, like getting in fights, and displaying distructive behavior, like chewing on things they shouldn't. They should at least get one long walk a day, if not twice, especially if they are high energy dogs.

I have two boys myself, and while they are young, I must be a consistent pack leader, and let them know their rank and place. Right now there isn't a pack leader, and it may be that your older male is trying to establish the pack order by taking the leadership role upon himself. You don't want that. Being a pack leader isn't about who goes out the door first, it's about who's in charge, and who controlls EVERYTHING. You must be consistent, otherwise it won't work. I have a feeling that if you don't intervene now, someone is bound to get hurt worse then a tail infection. 

It's great that you are feeding them seperate, and spending alone time with both of the dogs.

About the female corgi, I don't know so much about her role in this. I have heard of two males competing for a female, but that is usually when the female is not spayed. But, if this usually happens around her, by all means, seperate the males when she is around, or seperate her from the males, see what happens. 

Good luck with this, hopefully my advice can help you out a lot.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

You did not mention, or I missed it when you got the older male. 

I am dealing with an identical situation. I do rescue, and for whatever reason my older male will not tolerate the unneutered male rescue. The rescue is number six, and that has never before been a problem. 

My solution is not keep them apart; however, the young one will be adopted shortly.

I have done NILIF, and it does not work. So, like you the dogs are kept apart 24/7.

I wanted to add this because I have no idea how to deal with this situation, and clearly no advice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have two males. 4 and 2 1/2. When the younger was just under a year old, my older boy decided that he did not need to be any more and tried to knock the snot out of him. 

I separated them, and now I keep them separate. I will let a male run about with a female, but I leave the dogs and the bitches separated. 

It is not necessarily easy to separate two 79 pound dogs on your own. But it is harder to separate two sixty two pound bitches. Why risk bloody wounds that I will end up having to doctor?


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I gave the advice I did because there are several factors in this case, not just the two dogs not getting along, your two situations are different, are they not?


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

My guys weight 92 pounds and the little ten month old about 70 pounds.

Anyway, like you the best I can do is keep them apart. 

Some have suggested Ilet them fight it out, but I don't see this as a good option, so I keep them apart.

The younger one is a rescue I foster and will be placed on Saturday. A bit off the subject, but he is one of the most beautiful GSD's I have ever seen. He was found roaming the streets in Chicago, but healthy and well fed. So I think someone just lost the dog. Anyway, his new familyis very fortunate.


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## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

Thank you everyone for your insight. I agree with GSDOwner2008 that they probably are not getting enough exercise. But at this point I don’t think that’s the total answer. My older dog is obviously trying to be the pack leader. Last night things got even worse and he attacked the younger dog again. He was even challenging my husband a bit by staring at him – which he was corrected for. This is breaking my heart – these dogs were buddies and the younger one is very confused about what is happening. He is scared and very wary of the older one now, but he still wants to be with him and will cry and whine when they are separated. We’ve always tried to be the pack leaders, but obviously we’re failing at it. So starting last night we have some new rules. The boys are not allowed out together unless both my husband and I are there. And all rules are going to be strictly enforced. Plus more exercise of course. 

Timber1 asked about when we got the older male – we’ve had him from 8 weeks old (the younger also). And I don’t like the idea of letting them fight it out either.

Does anyone think neutering either dog would help the situation? I would be willing to do that if it would help. In fact the younger dog will most likely be neutered when he’s a little older due to an undecended testicle. Another thing we were thinking about was using a muzzle on the older dog when they are out together (those cage type ones that they can open their mouths in). Has anyone tried that? Or what about an e-collar? 

I know Cesar Millan seems to have a pack of dogs that get along – there must be an answer. I know you all can’t see how we behave as the pack leaders, but I don’t think we’ve made too many mistakes… I’m so upset about this – it helps to hear that others also have this problem. I’m hoping someone has been through this without the solution being total separation….but I may be dreaming.
AMM


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

If you have no intention of breeding the youngster neuter him immediately. He is 18 months old and yes many say wait til 24 months but I think he is plenty ld enough to start working on it. You won't see a difference immediately as it takes a while for the hormones to stop circulating. You may never see a difference but I would start there.

Increase your walks with the humans leading the walk not the dogs.

NLIF can help as a prevention. 

If all else fails separate them or re-home one. I would not re-home unless it was really bad.


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## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks KathyW,

After yesterday I'm seriously considering neutering them both :-(. 
I agreee with increasing the walks (humans leading)- in fact we took them on a long one last night. Walking *is* different than playing and I think we failed in that aspect. 

There's no way I could ever re-home one. Seperation will be hard but I will do it if I have to. I'm seriously thinking about the muzzle idea. At least he could get out and be with us, but he would be safe - opinions?
Thanks again
AMM


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I am not a big fan of dog behavior specialists, but did hire one to evaluate my GSD, Timber. The evaluation was done because he was becoming overly protective and I was concerned he would bite someone. 

I realize your situation is quite different, but am hoping someone on this board can recommend a person.

I know only one, perhaps two, but they both live in Wisconsin.

I will add that having Timber evaluated was on the expensive side.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with neutering the younger dog. I also agree with upping the exercise, the NLIF, and trying the basket muzzle on the older dog. 

A couple things I see, and would do, (but this is just me personally), two unneutered males, the older having been bred, now has his testosterone (sp) in HIGH gear, plus having a female (even tho she is spayed?) could possibly be one of the causes of the older male challenging the younger dog..(and it may have to do with him being submissive/maybe smelling weird because of his infection?) 

Why I say this,,when I had two males, and who NEVER had any problems with each other,,I brought in a female puppy, she didn't have to "do" anything, but be in their presence, and I had to deal with a few male fights,,it didn't happen often, but enough for me to know,,it had something to do with that female being in the mix.
They and I, ) Finally worked it out, and things became peaceful again. 

Another thing I see within a pack of mine own anyhow,,I have a very submissive female aussie who wouldn't hurt a flea,,she somehow has "sucker" and/or "pick on me" stamped on her forehead, and at times,,when I my older bitch was still with me, I had to really watch how the others would pick on her. With that "alpha" bitch now passed,,pack dynamics has changed, and their is no "true" dog leader,,more of a "human" (as in me) leader..

I would NEVER let them "fight it out",,so unfair to the younger dog who doesn't sound like he wants a "fight" to begin with! 

Some dogs are just NOT going to get along, (unfortunately), but I think neutering the one, keeping on top of things,,as in, watching for triggers and redirecting before it happens(not always easy), always supervising, etc,,(as I think you are doing the best you can right now!) can be managed..it ain't easy, but all you can do is try.

Good luck, just some thoughts from my own experiences..
Diane


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Usually males seem to eventually work this stuff out too. Both of mine are now neutered and they do have spats but not serious. I step in and they back off and are fine. 

I could not re-home either and it sounds like you are committed to this. If neutering the youngster does not work out I would neuter the older guy too. 

I do not know anything about you or your breeding program so take this as it is meant, advice from a novice, but I let the pros breed and neuter mine.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

what did they say about timber when you had him evaluated? storm is getting the same way. his bond with us is so strong that anyone not in the immediate pack he will not let near.


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## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I had an old plastic basket type muzzle at home so I tried it on Friday. It didn't stop the growling, but at least my young one can't be hurt. He hates the muzzle so I try not to have him wear it too long (otherwise they are separated). I've ordered one of those more open wire basket type muzzles - hopefully that will work better. My husband and I have also committed ourselves to two walks a day - one before we leave for work and one in the evenings. We've also started having our older dog wear a doggie backpack on the walks - gives him a job and makes the walk a little more strenuous.
I’m also re-reading Cesar Millan’s book, especially the part about the pack dynamics. I’m realizing more and more how I’ve really failed being a good pack leader. My husband is probably better than I am. I’ve also read elsewhere that from about 11 months to 2 years a young males hormones are surging way past normal adult levels. This often causes aggression from older males. Some say the older males are trying to teach the young ones the rules and discipline, so they are especially hard on them. Be that as it may, I would think any discipline should come from the pack leader. 

We are still considering neutering...we just need to talk to our breeder and gather some more info. 

I don’t know if I’ll ever trust them together again…we’ll just take it day by day. Either way I think because of this issue we’ll be much better pack leaders.

My poor dogs are probably wondering why their whole world had changed .


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Good for you! You're learning a lot, and you're making a change!


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