# "All carnivorous animals need meatless days..."



## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

"All carnivorous animals need meatless days each week, four days or less on meat, and one day on fluids only.

No wild dog would be able to kill prey every day of every week. Appreciating this fact, most zoos fast their animals - lions, tigers, wolves - one day per week"

as said by Juliette de Bairachli Levi, in The Complete Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable


Anyone have a thought on this?

Must say, that I agree, but I don't care to implement. I feel as though morning and evening meals are important to allow the dog to feel rewarded for doing what we do.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I fast one or two days a week. I also fast on show/training/trial mornings. 

If I'm actively doing ob or tracking a dog, no breakfast - they eat during training


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*Interesting*

My Father raised GSD's when I was very young, and as far as the adults were concerned he believed that they should not eat on a regular schedule, and he would not feed one day of the week. Now before you folks start to hammer my late Father and hero, remember this was back in the 1960's and I am still amazed at the level of loyalty and training he achieved with his GSDs. I don't remember where he learned this, but it was based on the same theory you mention. "If a dog knows it's going to be fed, and knows when, it lowers their situational awareness." I remember him saying that.

Please keep in mind this man was my hero, a highly decorated Soldier and I really don't care if you think he was something else.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> I fast one or two days a week. I also fast on show/training/trial mornings.


Why? Just curious.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

DWP said:


> My Father raised GSD's when I was very young, and as far as the adults were concerned he believed that they should not eat on a regular schedule, and he would not feed one day of the week.


I have heard of GSD people doing this, as well.

I also see lots of dogs on the streets being walked that could benefit from this. Lots of obese canines out there!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Why? Just curious.


Because a hungry dog works harder.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know that. I was wondering if there were any other reason.


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*I apoligize*

I apoligize for being defensive inmy previous post. I am sure folks disagree with my Fathers's methods, and that is fine, I just wanted to avoid any name calling. 

I overreacted. I have never been treated badly hear, don't know why I thought otherwise.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Because a hungry dog works harder.


:thumbup:
Dogs are too lazy after a meal - physiology kicks into parasympathetic mode, gut mobilizes, shut down sympathetic drives (what I want for training), and focuses the body's energy on digesting/rebuilding. Health also - don't want to stress a dog with a gut full of food to go out and work physically. Drives are generally low after a full meal. 

Fasting on show/trial/training days: 
I absolutely despite it when dogs poop during shows or trials. It's a simple matter that you can take care of easily prior to show time - of course some of it is inevitable (nervous eliminator or travel diarrhea), but there is really no reason for the amount of ring elimination that goes on. Annoys me to no end and my dog is not going to be in that position if I can help it!

Don't want them getting into the habit of pooping during training either - it can cost points later on during the real thing. Training is time for work, not to relax or rest or eliminate. Also, I travel long distances for training so by the time I get back home on weekends, it's usually 24h since the last feeding so some fasting is unintentional. 

I also don't follow any set mealtimes - generally just sometime in the evening or night - I've fed at 3PM to as late as 2AM depending on when I get the time. I don't like the gut expecting food and I find it annoying when dogs are throwing a tantrum for food based on mealtimes. 

My dogs know food is coming when I start rattling the food pans and start sounding my show whistle - otherwise, they don't go by time or when their stomachs start to anticipate food (had a couple come to me with morning bile vomiting - once I got rid of the schedule, no empty stomach vomiting). 

I keep my dogs very thin and ribby so I will fast when I see one getting a little "fluffy"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks gbchottu. Always enjoy your indepth posts.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I also don't follow any set mealtimes - generally just sometime in the evening or night - I've fed at 3PM to as late as 2AM depending on when I get the time. I don't like the gut expecting food and I find it annoying when dogs are throwing a tantrum for food based on mealtimes.
> 
> My dogs know food is coming when I start rattling the food pans and start sounding my show whistle - otherwise, they don't go by time or when their stomachs start to anticipate food (had a couple come to me with morning bile vomiting - once I got rid of the schedule, no empty stomach vomiting).


I am so doing this. :wild:

I will report back. Thank you! I, too, look forward to what you have to say.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

No prob! 

Yes - the morning bile is a big reason why I hate keeping a schedule. Some dogs get this problem because they have true gut issues and have sensitives that cause them to expel bile. But the ones I've encountered have had more to do with anticipation bile rather than true GI distress. 

You will notice it with your own body as well - if you eat lunch daily at 12PM, over time you notice that about half hour before mealtime: your stomach growling, the sting of acidity, rumbling as the gut starts to mobilize and churn in preparation for food, digestion enzymes already being released into the gut - same for dogs imo. If they get used to eating at the same time all the time, the gut preps for the food prior to actually seeing/smelling food based on peaks and valleys in the hormones that regulate hunger/digestion. There are some nice studies done on this for humans - studies will show that insulin and food regulation hormones Ghrelin/Leptin will have anticipatory peaks based on ingrained mealtimes. I never eat on a schedule and don't experience any gastritis commonly associated with anticipatory hunger - figured I'd do the same for my dogs. Found it worked better in all aspects.

Let me know how it goes Violet!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Fasting is also used to allow the kidneys to rest from processing wastes from protein


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

In a hurry so I am just going to go through this study I quickly found:
Spontaneous 24-h ghrelin secretion pattern in fasting subjects: maintenance of a meal-related pattern

"[Ghrelin] causes increased appetite and weight gain through increased food intake and reduced fat utilization" *so it is a hormone associated with stimulating appetite and has a correction to mealtimes*

"Interestingly, the 24-h ghrelin secretion pattern in our six fasting subjects demonstrated a similar course, with an increase at customary mealtimes and a spontaneous decrease after approximately 2 h without food consumption"

Take a look at this graph: 








Spontaneous 24-h ghrelin secretion pattern in fasting subjects: maintenance of a meal-related pattern









Spontaneous 24-h ghrelin secretion pattern in fasting subjects: maintenance of a meal-related pattern
*dark line is the average - extremes shown above and below*

Notice when peak Ghrelin levels occur: 8AM (breakfast time), Noon (lunch), around 7PM (dinner). Hormones are long term regulators and do form schedules - especially for meal times. This helps the gut anticipate when food will arrive - of course far more complex, but a simple way to see this in action.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Fasting is also used to allow the kidneys to rest from processing wastes from protein


Kidney is not going to shut down after one 24hr period of fasting - there is still enough being metabolized as glycogen stores are tapped into and energy stores mobilized. Filtration, resabsorption, and secretion continue to occur as the kidney acts as an important homeostatic regulator. Dog will still produce urine and kidneys continue to operate as per usual - perhaps there will be a slight changes to uric acid and creatinine levels as glomerular filtration rate drops due to fasting, but I would think this more for long term - not for single day fast for a carnivore with continued access to water. 

Fasting is beneficial, but not a magical cure all as some promote.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Why? Just curious.


There was an interesting thread on fasting maybe last year? I will see if I can find it. I remember the conversation not focusing on drive.


***

Think this is it.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/179489-interesting-conversation-old-timer.html


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I would feel guilty eating and making Fiona fast. She is free fed while she is on kibble. She goes raw soon. Freezer being delivered today.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

My basis for feeding comes from raising horses. Some research shows that horses get stressed when they don't eat regularly and stress can cause colic. One of my big concerns is bloat in my large breed dogs. What if the stress of missing meals causes bloat. There is no research to that end (that I know of) but what if? What if hunger causes the dog to bolt its next meal? What if that causes bloat? I've read the research that wolves miss several days of food between gorging episodes. But wolves don't have a long life expectancy so they aren't the perfect model for our canines.


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## Gsdlover13 (Jan 9, 2013)

fasting works for some dogs..if your dog has just been switched to 
raw recently dont do fasting...let your dog get used to it as mentioned
by some one it can cause bloat...

so becareful make sure your dog has been atleast over a year on raw
to be able to fast....


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Please show evidence that fasting and bloat are correlated - this is a weighty assertion. Even after all the effort and resources poured into bloat research, we still do not know the definitive cause. Hearsay is not fact.

And btw, I would much more readily compare wolf to dog before I compare horse to dog.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Please show evidence that fasting and bloat are correlated - this is a weighty assertion. Even after all the effort and resources poured into bloat research, we still do not know the definitive cause. Hearsay is not fact.
> 
> And btw, I would much more readily compare wolf to dog before I compare horse to dog.


If you read the message before you pounced, you can clearly see that I said there is no research to my knowledge of any correlation to bloat. And I said 'what if' several times. It's as good a theory as any you have put forth. Read carefully before criticizing. And you can certainly compare a dog to a wolf but who says wolves don't bloat? And wolves don't eat kibble. We all have our own private superstitions, if you will. Mine is as good as anyone's and is based on some research even if it is on a different species.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

hahaha "pounced" - if you've seen me truly on the hunt, you would know I was asking you simply!

Relax internet pal 

btw, you were not the only one to mention this fasting bloat theory. Research has hinted that large meals once per day can be a contributing factor - this thread talks about fasting dogs; not overfeeding dogs upon refeeding. I have never seen fasting correlated with bloat - hence my request for supporting evidence.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So would you fast a bile vomiter?


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> hahaha "pounced" - if you've seen me truly on the hunt, you would know I was asking you simply!
> 
> Relax internet pal
> 
> btw, you were not the only one to mention this fasting bloat theory. Research has hinted that large meals once per day can be a contributing factor - this thread talks about fasting dogs; not overfeeding dogs upon refeeding. I have never seen fasting correlated with bloat - hence my request for supporting evidence.


OK, lets look at this logically. If you are feeding the dog X amount of food (to maintain a certain weight) you must therefore feed more food in fewer meals. Large meals are a concern to me and to others. When it comes to bloat, the more and smaller meals the better. Agreed? I would feed three meals a day if I was home. Even two meals on a regular schedule makes me uneasy. Colic is similar to bloat and is believed to be caused by stress among other things. If the dog is on a 12 hour meal schedule, isn't it logical to assume he is waiting for that meal and may be stressed if it doesn't appear? That's my reasoning, what's yours?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think that a horse's digestive system and physiology, and a dog's digestive system and physiology are so different, that one cannot compare them, and draw conclusions between colic and bloat. 

I remember one of the breeders here mentioning a study on feeding (not sure who it was, Bocron, or Blackthorn?).

Some dogs were being fed twice a day, some once a day, some every other day, or once every three days. Not sure how big the groups were or how long the study went on for, but the end result was that the group that had the healthiest dogs was the group that was being fed every other day.

I'd love to find it and read it - get more details on how big the groups were, what they were being fed, and how the health and well-being of the dogs was measured. But still an interesting study and a surprise finding, I think.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I find your attitude simply charming 



> If you are feeding the dog X amount of food (to maintain a certain weight) you must therefore feed more food in fewer meals.


Say I feed 2lbs of food per day - one at each meal. Or if you want to keep it with kibble, 3c a day 1.5c each meal. If I fast Sat morning, I still feed about 1 lb of food for dinner. Weight and condition are maintained over time - you can slightly increase food for each mealtime to compensate for a meal missed here or there. If you use kibble, skip Sunday meal, feed 1.75c each mealtime. A dog will be perfectly fine with this adjustment - it won't be at an immediately risk for bloat....

Also - keep in mind that the causation of bloat is UNKNOWN so in reality, you are hanging onto something (more meals less food) that hasn't been definitively proven as a definitive factor to prevent bloat. 



> Large meals are a concern to me and to others. When it comes to bloat, the more and smaller meals the better. Agreed? I would feed three meals a day if I was home. Even two meals on a regular schedule makes me uneasy.


You might want to look into prophylactic gastroplexy if you have such a concern for bloat. I understand the disease, recognize the prevalence in the breed, but do not let it impede me from making decisions that benefit my dog - especially since there has been nothing proven as a cause of bloat. Adding a 1/3c more food per meal or adding few grams extra to compensate for a missed meal will not make or prevent a dog from bloating.

Again - the more meals per day is a recommendation. Has not been proven or disproven.... 



> Colic is similar to bloat and is believed to be caused by stress among other things. If the dog is on a 12 hour meal schedule, isn't it logical to assume he is waiting for that meal and may be stressed if it doesn't appear?


I don't think your colic to bloat analogy is as strong as you seem to think it to be....entirely different physiology (like I said, I rather compare wolf to dog...). 

Using your logic, a dog EXPECTING a meal as per his innate timing and schedule (i.e. the gut anticipation discussion we were having previously ) would have GREATER stress as he is EXPECTING a meal that is to arrive. My dogs are not expecting anything - meals come when I feed them. This is what the discussion on fluctuations of feeding regulation hormones, anticipatory GI physiology, bile production was getting at - when my dogs don't expect food at any particular time except when cued - they are not stressed and waiting for anything. Your dog IS waiting for something because he is fed like clockwork and his gut IS anticipating a meal so he would be under stress if he missed a meal, but he wouldn't immediately bloat - that connection is weak at best...

If that feeding schedule works for you, kudos. But for my dogs, they need to be able to tolerate missed meals, deal with variable meal schedules, be able to eat different types of food, adjust to stresses while still being able to perform....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I always used to feed adult dogs twice a day. About a year ago, I switched them to once a day. I get home late, and they put up a mighty ruckus at feeding time, so in the morning, ok, but at 1 or 2 am, not so good. 

I did used to skip a meal now and then. But when I switched to once a day, I feel really bad if I skip a meal. 

One of my longer haired youngsters, Gretta, who will be two in November, needed a bath, and I gave her one yesterday and realized that she is way thinner than I like. Maybe the two a day feedings were better for her. I have been feeding her four cups a day of 29 protein, 20 fat. But this is not working for her. 

So, I am adding an egg and either a can of food or a couple of cups of kibble in the evening as well. I will do this for a week then weigh her, then for another week, and see whether I have suffiient improvement. I also wormed her today to make sure there are no parasites competing for the food. 

I won't fast young energetic dog who tend to keep themselves slight. But for the older ones that carry their weight ok, a day off of eating is ok. 

Also, sometimes I feed them at 7AM, sometimes before noon. sometimes afternoon. Sometimes around 4pm, and occasionally as late as 7PM. Before I read this thread, I always felt a bit guilty for not being better scheduled. But it is true that mixing it up does seem to reduce bile vomiting.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I find your attitude simply charming
> 
> Say I feed 2lbs of food per day - one at each meal. Or if you want to keep it with kibble, 3c a day 1.5c each meal. If I fast Sat morning, I still feed about 1 lb of food for dinner. Weight and condition are maintained over time - you can slightly increase food for each mealtime to compensate for a meal missed here or there. If you use kibble, skip Sunday meal, feed 1.75c each mealtime. A dog will be perfectly fine with this adjustment - it won't be at an immediately risk for bloat....
> 
> ...


Hey, it's my theory and it is every bit as good as yours. We all do the best we can and if feeding your dogs a calf on random days each month works for you...go for it. In the absence of any proof that my theory is in error, I think we should just let people read it and either dismiss it or consider it. We have all heard the gorge and fast theory, I don't like it and that is my prerogative. If you feed with absolute random abandon, then your dogs get a happy surprise every time they get a meal. If they are hungry, I think that might cause a little stress. What effect does the stress have? I don't know but I assume you're gonna tell me it's a good thing. So, bottom line, I don't care much for your theories and you don't like mine. Somehow we must put this behind us and go on


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't feed on a set schedule either. Between work, training, dog shows and my life, it's impossible to be on a very strict schedule anyway. 

I feed twice a day, but when my dogs stay at my breeder's house, they eat once a day, since that is how she feeds. I don't feed the morning of a dog show. I feed _after_ dog training class. And on the weekends, well, we all eat when I get around to it. No one is stressed. Everyone eats. No one wolfs their food down. No one throws a hissy fit because I haven't fed them yet (except my senile old IG that would eat 24/7 if you let her).

I have a friend whose husband insists that they all eat at EXACTLY the same time every single day. I swear, they are held hostage by their dog feeding schedule.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I think it makes perfect sense, and what a timely post. Today we are fasting at my house.

I fed a big meal yesterday, and they won't need dinner tonight. I ate a huge lunch today, and I don't need dinner tonight (I know that's not a real fast for me, but they don't, and it helps avoid the hungry eyes).

I feed myself usually about twice a day (when I'm hungry), and I feed my dogs once a day (whenever it's most convenient for me that day). I don't feel guilty about it at all. I don't sit around worrying about bloat I can't reliably predict. 

My dogs aren't going to stalk an ear of corn, so they don't eat kibble. They eat prey model raw. And I always thought to myself, they sure aren't going to weigh out their portions and eat the same amount at the same time every day when they do make a kill...so I feed them what feels most naturally to me over the course of a week or so. (Well, okay, they don't get a whole calf at a time...I can't leave that carcass in my front yard in my subdivision, LOL!)

And except for my senior who carries a little extra weight, but looks and feels a _whole_ lot better than she did when I first adopted her, we're a pretty lean and mean crew. I like the look of my athletic dogs running, and I like to feel healthy myself. It's an eat to live, not live to eat mentality. And I'm no expert nor scientist...just going with my gut, and we have had Zero issues


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Because a hungry dog works harder.


i hear this a lot in the dog world - no other successful training outfit aside from dogs follows this, marathon runners fast before a marathon - no, sprinters - no, endurance horses - no, mma guys - no.....exact oppositte in fact. just google pre-match nutrition for any major footbal team in the US, fasting - no, all based in high level sports science, ritual and experience.


what makes dogs so different???

i have observed that people that starve dogs to increase drive are usually the same ones that use social isolation to increase drive - phooey on all of it. 

do i know anything about 15 minute max trial performances - no.

do i know much about high performance extreme physical extertion for extended durations that may last consecutive days/nights - yes.

do i fast dogs to increase drive - no.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Boxing, very often fighters will have to make weight, which means fasting before the fight. 

I know I got down to my lowest weight when I was doing a lot of cycling and fasting.

I think they do not feed the same when they are racing horses, no hay, only grain on race day. 

When I go to a show, I will often not feed them until I get home. For one thing, I am up and out much earlier than usual. And, I really do not want them uncomfortable in the vehicle. After the show, I will splurge on hot dogs for all and sometimes ice cream, sometimes Arby's roast beef sandwiches. Sometimes a trip to Boston Market and a dinner for three to go split 3 ways.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Boxing, very often fighters will have to make weight, which means fasting before the fight.
> 
> I know I got down to my lowest weight when I was doing a lot of cycling and fasting.


that has nothing to do with performance in boxing - in fact it is counterproductive and is a health risk, guys will starve and dehydrate to make weight and collapse in a fight. it is easier to lose weight by losing fluid so many guys before a fight will be both dangerously dehydrated and their body is starving from mal-nutrition...so bad example.

straight after weigh in guys will gorge themselves with food and fluids - strangely yr weight after weigh in does not matter, it is usually a gap of up to several hours.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I watch a LOT of fights. When those guys go down, there is a punch causing it. It is strenuous activity that would make me fall down punch or no punch totally hydrated. Those guys train for months, and nutrition is definitely a part of the whole picture.

I really don't know any athletes that gorge themselves before a major game, fight, race, whatever. You want your body in tip top shape, and generally extra weight/bogged down is not what you want.


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