# How is this pedigree?



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Hey all... 
Just did a mating check on a soon to be born boy (probably) im waiting for. Want to know what you guys think. 
mating check 

Would appreciate any sort of input.....

Ad.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

On paper it looks decent, not heavily line bred.

The sire Zello isn't bad, I would prefer to see more bone. He has nice body structure with the typical flaws could use more shoulder angle. IMHO the biggest drawback would be or appears to be lack of bone, his front legs look to spindly to handle he body.

The Dam, not my cup of tea at all. I think her shoulder is worse than the male so no help there. She has a roach to her back I don't care for that, she has a wavy coat, I have one wavy coat in the house I don't care for it. She certainly isn't going to bring more bone to the mix. She is short in the body. Overall just nice one of the nicer bitches I have seen.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They look like nice German show line dog and bitch, a lot of good dogs behind them. I agree about the bitch being roached, but a lot of them are. I like the dog a lot. 

I looked at the bitch's only listed progeny, different sire, but he is also long legged and spindly, could be still very young, I hope. 

They both have good color, I expect you are looking for a black and red dog?


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Thanks Tiger and Selzer for the input
Im not a huge fan of roached backs but both these dogs are big on temperament from what i hear. Cant really find much besides these tapering backs in the German showlines...



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I looked at the bitch's only listed progeny, different sire, but he is also long legged and spindly, could be still very young, I hope.


Ozzy is 4 yrs old but the pic was taken when she was appearing in junior class (i think)... This is her second litter according to the breeder.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> They both have good color, I expect you are looking for a black and red dog?


Lol yea, what told u that, lol... Im a fan of black and red, call me what you want but the pigmentation is strikingly beautiful (to me)

Cant wait for the little one to be ready for pickup.... 

Thanks again guys....
Any more inputs would be great....


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Im posting the actual web address of the mating check this time (instead of that rollover link) in case some of you have been wondering where the link is:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=127077&modir=547725

Any ideas, critiques (of dam and sire), suggestions, random thoughts, musings, blessings, questions, warnings, ramblings will be welcome... no seriously...


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

My GSD Hella Vom Hirschmorgen is a zello puppy, 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/397544.html


The whole litter super hectic... 
But then I know they took after the bitch more.
I also do not know which side carry's the curly coat but every pup but 1 had it in her litter.

I do not like "ozzy" the dam too sloped.


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Ozzy has a curly coat though her roached back seems to be taken after the father rather than the mother who has a straighter topline.... http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/547725.html
Does that suggest the pups would take after Zello rather than Ozzy (who has a more roached back) in this department? I have no clue on how this works.....
I cant tell too well whether Hella has a curly coat coz she looks like she just took a dip in the lake.... do you have any pictures of her when she's dry??


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I posted that pic because you can see how really curly her coat is being wet. The Germans make fun of her Asking what kind of poodle is she mixed with! 

2 other problems she had/has you should know about. 
She needs to drink bottled water because her kidneys can not filter the minerals out of the tap water properly. 

Also missing and crooked teeth! She had 2 adult teeth never came in and also they milk teeth were crooked but the adult teeth were not too bad. 

The german breeders say that most of the genes come from the mother? 

Here is another pic


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

You were right about the curly hair.... My pup's dam is pretty heavy in that department as well, should be interesting how it turns out.... I really dont mind curly hair personally. 
Interesting set of health issues you describe though giving tap water where i live is not even an option... It consult the breeder regarding kidney problems in the sire as well as have a look at bother their teeth....
Will update as soo as that happens..
Thanks for the valuable input Berg...


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I do not care about the coat texture either. Actually I prefer Hella's wire curly coat to normal GSD's. It makes her shedding not too bad and a breeze to groom. 


The Sire and Dam's teeth may not show anything it could skip a generation! 
Either way yes keep me updated.


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Just got a call from the breeder telling me that the pup i was waiting for died after his first shot.... **** i think im gonna go have a beer....


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Or maybe something a bit more strong!1


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So sorry to hear that. Even when you don't "know" them, it must still hurt.


----------



## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

how very disappointing....


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Sorry to hear that! 

Now that gives me a better knowledge that the high puppy mortality rate comes from the Zello the daddy! Upon that knowledge I would say look for a different line! 

My German friend pointed that fact out to me that all the pups from the kennel my Hella came from had alot of pups die! But now that he is using a different kennel for getting his stud dog, he does not have any deaths in litters!


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Thaks for the commiserations Mary n Kandi... 

Berg i think il take your advice....
Thanks for all the input..


----------



## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I'm so sorry...


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DukesMyDogJust got a call from the breeder telling me that the pup i was waiting for died after his first shot.... **** i think im gonna go have a beer....


I am SO sorry to hear that and can only imagine the disappointment. But I do have a question... what shot was the puppy given?

On 3/11/09 you said the pup was soon to be born. Then on 4/13/09 it died from a shot. I'm trying to figure out what sort of shot anyone would give to a pup who can't be more than 4 weeks old?


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Good point Chris. I had a vet tech tell me they were going to 4 puppy shots starting at 6 weeks now. I usually wait until week 8 to start mine and only give three. Surely they didn't start that pup at 4 weeks! 

I use a 5 way and have had good results. Luckly we don't have to do Lepto around here. If I did, I would reccomend a certain brand if anyone is interested.


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

The breeder informed me on the day i started the thread that the puppy had been born three days prior. He got the parvo shot and according to the breeder he was 5 weeks when this happened....

U think the breeder messed up?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My understanding is that puppies are still effected by antibodies and immunities (I think?) from their mother until they are about 8 weeks old (I think the exact age and the extent is debatable, and probably differs). So I think most people vaccinate at 8 weeks, knowing that this vacc may or may not do anything. My pup was vaccinated at 8 weeks. I socialized him but was careful to keep him in my arms at other dog places like the pet store. He got his second shots a few weeks later, and then a few days after that I felt OK setting him down. He got one or two more rounds of shots, I can't remember. I think he got a third booster and then we had a fourth appt. for his rabies shot.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Ah ok. That makes more sense. A parvo only shot at 5 weeks is a common practice. Though I don't think I've ever heard of a pup dying from a parvo shot before. Very sad.


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

Maybe it wasn't the shot... Berg did mentioned a high mortality rate with Zello's pups. Could actually be true. He had a litter of only 3, really don't know if that has anything to do with it though...


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeMy understanding is that puppies are still effected by antibodies and immunities (I think?) from their mother until they are about 8 weeks old (I think the exact age and the extent is debatable, and probably differs). So I think most people vaccinate at 8 weeks, knowing that this vacc may or may not do anything. My pup was vaccinated at 8 weeks. I socialized him but was careful to keep him in my arms at other dog places like the pet store. He got his second shots a few weeks later, and then a few days after that I felt OK setting him down. He got one or two more rounds of shots, I can't remember. I think he got a third booster and then we had a fourth appt. for his rabies shot.



Oh well, soon enough....


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

DukesMyDog, I'm very sorry to hear the pup you were to get has died. That's both sad & disappointing.

For the breeders on this board...


> Quote:2 other problems she had/has you should know about.
> She needs to drink bottled water because her kidneys can not filter the minerals out of the tap water properly.
> 
> Also missing and crooked teeth! She had 2 adult teeth never came in and also they milk teeth were crooked but the adult teeth were not too bad.


Some questions on the above quotes...Assuming this information is true, it seems like a questionable move to breed a GSD with missing & faulty teeth. Am I mistaken about that? And it just seems like an all around really bad idea to breed a bitch with wonky kidneys. Are breeders comfortable selecting for dogs that require bottled water??? Aren't GSD genetics problematic enough without adding in more health issues? Assuming it's a 'rare' recessive, or inherited through multiple genes, the pups probably won't be directly affected, but they'll potentially be carrying bad genetics into future (unsuspecting) generations. (Note, so called 'rare' recessives are all too often anything but rare in today's pb dogs) I'm not a breeder, but the notion gives me major heebie jeebies.

I'm assuming the problems are genetic. IMO, most things are at least indirectly due to genetics, loathe though some brreders are to acknowledge it.. IF it's not genetic, then specifically what accident, illness or environmental contaminant caused the dental & kidney problems?


----------



## DukesMyDog (Dec 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayAssuming this information is true, it seems like a questionable move to breed a GSD with missing & faulty teeth. Am I mistaken about that? And it just seems like an all around really bad idea to breed a bitch with wonky kidneys. Are breeders comfortable selecting for dogs that require bottled water???


Ruby I really appreciate your concern!!!!
Berg was talking about a progeny from the sire who's pup i was awaiting rather than the sire or dam (our dogs wud'v been half siblings). The crooked teeth and dodgy kidneys (sorry Berg) were not found in either the mother or father however, your argument still holds strength since these two problems were passed on to Berg's bitch Hella.


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Ah Excuse me Ruby Tuesday but you did not read the post properly!

I had my Hella FIXED AT 15 MONTHS OLD and she was never bred! I was simply imforming Dukes my dog of possible problems with in this line that COULD POSSIBLE COME FROM THE FATHER OR THE MOTHER! as these are some of the problems that MY GSD carry! By the way the breeder Vom Hirsch morgen said that non of his dogs had ever any problems with teeth or kidneys before. It had to come from someplace!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Isn't it amasing how much we can assume from a website or a post....I will never understand it!


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Hey I do it too some times! Weather it is skip reading to obtain the most important bits or what have you. Couple that with me being new here and people not knowing what I am about! 

First while I would say if I had good prospect with all the health testing and competitions behind her/ him only then would I decide to maybe to breed a dog. 

Next I must say that I felt a little ticked off as at the time I bought my GSD I had put it in the hands of a different german girlfriend to do the translating of the different kennels as at the time I did not speak or read the language like I do now! 

Lessons learned as my other German girlfriend then did the translations after the fact and now has shown me what to look for. No matter as I have a new kennel I will be looking at, one of the B litter pups is in New york at a friends house. 

http://hvk9.com/content/newsletter_details.asp?ArticleID=93 

http://zwinger-vom-schmiedefeuer.de.tl/Home.htm


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Berg Wanderer, you're right & I apologize for my error. I didn't read your post correctly. When you stated, "2 other problems she had/has you should know about....", I thought you were referring to the dam of the litter he'd been considering. I didn't realize it was still your girl you were discussing. Again, I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of this. I actually didn't think you'd bred your pup & didn't intend to give anyone that impression.




> Quote:Isn't it amasing how much we can assume from a website or a post....I will never understand it!


Clifton, I absolutely agree with you on this, which is why I started my post by stating, "Assuming this information is true...". Much of the info we get is (at best) incomplete & one sided. I won't form strong opinions, for good or bad, with what might be inaccurate, biased, sometimes even deliberately misleading info. This is a strictly <u>general</u> statement & is NOT intended to deride anyone in this thread.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BW - if I read this NY website right - the owner is using a 16 month old male (are his hips 'a' stamped at least??) for breeding already? What is the rationale here???? And he says the pups are NOT from "unproven" parents??? There are no credentials at all listed for the parents...no hip ratings, no temperment testing - BH, CD, CGC or TT??? Sorry, but you seem savvy - so what positive do you know about this kennel that they do not put on there??? I would think that these are the most important things to say on your website - the credentials of your breeding stock, rather than that a sire is "a family pet"!!!???

Or am I misunderstanding your post and you are getting a pup from the German Kennel????

Lee


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Sorry I forgot that no one here knows my real name (Suzi). That was why I posted the page from Bob's site, I helped Bob get his dog Bashan from the B litter of the German Kennel I posted and the German Kennel is the one I am going to look at for my next pup. 
Sorry for the confusion. 

Here is a video link from the breeder of a couple of her dogs
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/3682109/Baja_vom_Schmiedefeuer


----------

