# Breeders Who Test for DM



## wundergsd

*Attention all BREEDERS... let's start a list for GSD breeders that do test for DM. Please list the kennel name and what state you are located in. ** removed by ADMIN***

** link removed** 

**Linking to other GSD related boards and groups is not allowed. Let's keep the discussions here where they can benefit the most people. ADMIN**


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## NancyJ

Not a breeder but on the fence about the value of that particular test since both Carriers and DM Clear dogs by that assay have wound up necropsied with DM. I believe the forum rules do NOT allow you to link to another GSD specific forum.


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## elisabeth_00117

I agree, new information has come to light over this test - however.. my breeder does test for DM.

Wild Winds German Shepherds
Arthur, Ontario Canada


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## Smithie86

In addition, there is confusion on what a clear produces. I have seen where people have posted their dog was tested clear and would never produced a carrier or at risk. That is fundamentally incorrect. If the dog was bred to a non-clear dog........ the laws of genetics kicks in....


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## K9Sport

*DM breeders who test*

::::waving:::: Kinda new to this forum...

If we assume that DM is autosomal recessive then a clear bred to anything can't produce an affected pup.

Clear to Clear - all pups CLEAR
Clear to Carrier - 50% CLEAR & 50% Carrier - 0% affected
Cear to Affected - 100% carrier - 0% affected

The problem with DM is that it strongly mimics other spinal disease and the pathology isn't that clear cut. Still, we as breeders, IMO should utilize the testing made available to us, and weight the results with the knowledge that it more than likely isn't a simple autosomal recessive. 

Laurie <---- who does test for DM 
RennbahnK9.com


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## gagsd

It has been documented by necropsy that dogs tested as "clear" and "carrier" had DM, as Nancy said above.

So at least in reference to the gene currently tested for, it is apparently NOT a simple autosomal recessive mode of inheritance.


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## K9Sport

*DM breeders who test*

<<It has been documented by necropsy that dogs tested as "clear" and "carrier" had DM, as Nancy said above.

So at least in reference to the gene currently tested for, it is apparently NOT a simple autosomal recessive mode of inheritance.>>

Been documented by who? I hear people say that, but I have never seen the "documentation." FWIW a community veterinarian does not have the skill or training to dx DM via necropsy. Neither does a pathologist whom is not clinically trained in neurology. 

And like I said in my post, For me, it is a weighted tool that breeders should use. Even if it's not a simple AR, if it shows a likelihood (which the current DNA test does) then it becomes a good tool for breeders to use. I can equate it to the BRCA mutation in women. Just because you are BRCA positive doesn't mean you will get breast cancer, but it DOES mean that you are MUCH more likely to get it.

In dogs, for me, with the current testing available, I would not intentionally ever breed to "at risk" dogs.


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## gagsd

By Dr. Coates.

edited to ad: I am not saying there is no value in testing. But I am saying this is a relatively new test, with conflicting infomation and that people should use some common sense and NOT use "DM TESTED" as a sales pitch.


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## gagsd

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

"...two dogs with test results of N/N (Normal) have been confirmed to have DM."

"...we have confirmed DM in a few carrier dogs."

"Research is ongoing to estimate what percentage of dogs testing as A/A will develop DM within their lifespan."


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## NancyJ

K9Sport;2489459Been documented by who? I hear people say that said:


> A statement to that effect came back on my DM test for Grim. plus I know another SAR handler with a G/G dog who was necropsied with DM and here-they report on two carriers with DM on the U of M web site - which is not updated with the other ones:
> 
> Degenerative Myelopathy - Using the DNA test
> 
> EDIT-Oh good the OFA page updated as well-it was not a few months ago. I do think it is very good for breeders to test to gather data over time, particularly with the now unfunded assertion from Clemmons at U of F that it was more of an autoimmune issue.


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## Chris Wild

We have tested for DM for the past few years. Given the new information available bringing into question whether or not the current OFA test is valid at all for GSDs, I'm not sure if we'll continue to do so or not.


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## Guardyan

The OFA website states there have been two Normal/Normal dogs found to have DM.

Source: http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/dmexplanation.html

IMHO, this calls into question the validity of the test. 

So I have a question for everyone. Are folks better off choosing a puppy from a breeder who tests for DM with a potentially flawed test? Or, are they better off choosing a puppy with a lower COI (and resulting greater diversity in the MHC)?

In other words, if you wanted a puppy with a good immune system, which would you choose:

Puppy A: Inbred or tight linebreeding from 2 DM Normal/Normal parents
Puppy B: Total outcross puppy from parents not tested for DM

Just curious . . .


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## lhczth

I, personally, would look at the history behind the pups. Are the parents, grandparents, etc, long lived without issues. This would tell me more than whether the parents are tested or not tested (especially with a test that is rather questionable).


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## Doc

The current test is 65 dollars and there is a question if the current test is really valid. Until the test is reliable and valid, I would much rather know the dogs back in the pedigree.


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## martemchik

In my opinion this test is a tie breaker between "all things equal" breeders (which is impossible). So if the breeders are breeding the same dogs, both tested for OFA, both are the color/temperament I want, price is the same, and then one happens to run this test and the other doesn't, I'll go with the one that does. But since this is a completely hypothetical situation which is impossible in real life, I won't base my decision based on the results of this test or the fact that a breeder even runs it.


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## Doc

So a breeder states that they test for DM - but there is question as to the validity of the test. I would say that because the current test is not valid, it is a waste of money and time - the results mean nothing from a invalid test.
However, if the breeder knows the history of the dogs in the pedigree and is knowledgable of the offspring, then I would trust that knowledge over any invalid test. Unfortunately there are breeders that have no idea of what is behind their dogs and therefore rely on invalid results to make their dogs attractive.


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## RebelGSD

My dog has symptoms and he tested as carrier. Not possible to prove either way. The neurologist and the vet doing the stem cell treatment were sceptical. The study was done on a dufferent breed, is relatively small and the not affected dogs were not necropsied systematically.
I am concerned that the test will give a false sense of security to some. After having two with DM, I will much rather take DM at a late age than hemangiosarcoma at 7 or 8. What I am trying to say that I am happy if my dog gets to be old enough to show DM. Stem cell treatment worked great for mine and I posted videos in the health section. DM is not the end of the world like HSA.


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## BlackthornGSD

I will test my breeding dogs and make decisions to avoid producing any puppies that may be +/+, but I think half the picture is missing and it's not correct to say that our dogs can't produce DM at-risk dogs. 

The people pushing for the testing need to know that it is no magic test and be careful not to represent it that way to puppy buyers who they are telling to insist upon the testing of breeding stock.

However, the evidence seems irrefutable that a dog who has 2 copies of the DM gene has a higher chance of getting the disease. So, as a responsible breeder, I think I should use the info this test provides to make informed breeding decisions. I *don't* think that an at-risk dog should automatically be removed from breeding and I don't think that this test is the whole story as far as the inheritance of DM.


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## Jerry Ross

We need to be very careful about throwing out this test. The fact is the overwhelming number of dogs tested are valid. The so-called invalid test results, IMHO, is numerically insignificant. The sorry fact is, there are other conditions which mimic or resemble DM. I think it's prudent to continue to test and rely on the results. This is painful, but having or producing animals destined to this heartbreak in unconscionable.


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## shepherdmom

I think the test is a crock personally. I'm no breeder or expert but I lost my heart dog to DM. It looked and acted autoimmune. My breeder has never before or since had any of her other dogs get DM. I live in an area highly polluted with minerals from mining. My vet has seen a major increase in it recently and her theory is that there is something in the environment in this area that is triggering this response.


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## onyx'girl

Was it confirmed thru necropsy, shepherdmom? 
Sorry for your loss.


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## Lauri & The Gang

So here's my question - have any dogs that tested POSITIVE been necropsied and found to be negative?


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## Chris Wild

Lauri, the test doesn't work that way. A +/+ dog is considered "at risk". It is not definite that these dogs will get DM. Only a percentage of them will, not all of them. Basically what the test says is that a -/- dog can't get it, a -/+ dog is a carrier but can't get it, and a +/+ dog may get it, but also may not. So supposedly people only need to be worried about +/+ dogs getting DM, and then it's just a chance, not a guarantee that they will get it. So yes, since not all dogs that are +/+ are going to get it, even if showing DM type symptoms some of those upon necropsy would probably be shown to not have DM. There are after all many other disorders that can mimick DM symptoms. From a diagnostic standpoint the test would only serve to say if DM is a possible cause of the symptoms. Only necropsy can say for sure if it was.


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## Sabis mom

So I was hoping to find a list of breeders who are testing? I am hunting desperately for a pup I can get within the next year and not having much luck. DM is a deal breaker for me. 

So far I have found Weberhaus, Wildhaus, Schraderhaus, and Granville in the US and Narnia in Canada.

Anyone else?

Shepherdmom I just lost the love of my life to DM in October, my heart breaks for you. Truly.
However if a DNA test identified her as clear, unless a necropsy has proved otherwise I would be looking to other causes.


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## K9POPPY

*DM Testing*

DM testing should be a deal breaker for anyone interested in purchasing a purebred GSD. There is no excuse a breeder can give me for NOT testing for DM that will hold water with me. I just recently lost my GSD to DM, and I will NEVER purchase another GSD without the parents being tested. PERIOD. Right now, this is the only available safeguard to buyers that DO NOT want to go through what we just went through with our GSD.( IT IS THE MOST HORRIBLE DISEASE IMAGINABLE) The test is CHEAP, and I am sorry, but I feel that a truly RESPONSIBLE GSD breeder needs to use EVERY test available to ensure that the breed is being improved, not just selling puppies. ( and I'm NOT going to listen to breeders who argue that the test is inconclusive- that's just another excuse)- IMHO Bob


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree I like to see that a breeder has DM tested their dogs, however, the test itself is not 100% accurate, just so one knows

kleinenhain in KY dm tests, I probably listed it prior on this thread as, this thread is rather old.


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## K9POPPY

Yes, perhaps this is true, but nothing in this life is 100%


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## wolfstraum

while maybe not 110% - I think it is worthwhile (I tested mine using a lab that does many genetic tests, not OFA's site...which is done ..... ??? where???) and am doing it on my young dogs. 

Just did a breeding with a female who is -/- to a male who is -/+ - so negative to a carrier...at most I will get some carriers. If the female had been a carrier or double +, I would have gone elsewhere for a male.

Lee


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## carmspack

I have done it on some of my dogs - more so of the "new" genetics being introduced to a long running breeding program thoroughly familiar to me for decades. Dogs are long lived - average 13+ without problems .


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## Chip18

Sabis mom said:


> So I was hoping to find a list of breeders who are testing? I am hunting desperately for a pup I can get within the next year and not having much luck. DM is a deal breaker for me.
> 
> So far I have found Weberhaus, Wildhaus, Schraderhaus, and Granville in the US and Narnia in Canada.
> 
> Anyone else?
> 
> Shepherdmom I just lost the love of my life to DM in October, my heart breaks for you. Truly.
> However if a DNA test identified her as clear, unless a necropsy has proved otherwise I would be looking to other causes.


Chiming here also, and saying so sorry for you both. I lost my Boxer to DM last NOV. Boxers are horrible in regards to DM. If I get a Boxer pup it will be from a breeder with two clear parents. So far with Boxers I have found only one or two Breeders with clear parents.


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## LaRen616

Boeselager Kennels in Michigan does DM testing

www.boeselagerkennel.com/index.html


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## RubyTuesday

I think the test is worthwhile although I don't believe it's definitive. Nor should the test replace rigorously evaluating the extended family histories of dogs being bred. 

IMO, truly 'unaffected' heterzygotes are much rarer than is commonly assumed. All other things being equal, I'd prefer a pup from 2 clear parents than 1 clear & 1 carrier. I'd rather my dog was 'clear' rather than a carrier even though I don't breed. In numerous human disorders caused by a recessive gene, the so called carrier is somewhat affected, but much more mildly. For example, sickle cell & at least some of the clotting disorders.


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## RubyTuesday

Note, if I was choosing b/w a breeder that tested & one who evaluated the extended family histories of the dogs I'd go with the breeder relying on an evaluation of the history. At least at this time, NOTHING replaces that, NOTHING. Even if the DM test was 100% accurate & foolproof an evaluation of the dogs' histories is so much more informative. Rely strictly on tests & at best we'll have DM-, HD- & cardio- dogs still at risk for so many other disorders, some of them as heart wrenching as DM.

Royalair does the test but it was a very minor factor in getting my dogs from her. There are breeders I like & would consider a pup from that don't do the test. Used properly it's a tool, but only one & not the most important.


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## K9POPPY

*DM Testing*

I'm sorry to disagree with you, if you have ever experienced DM in one of your dogs, and lived through having a GSD die from this terrible disease, you would definitely think it is the most important-


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## robk

DM is only one aspect of a highly complex breed.


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## Sabis mom

K9POPPY said:


> I'm sorry to disagree with you, if you have ever experienced DM in one of your dogs, and lived through having a GSD die from this terrible disease, you would definitely think it is the most important-


 
100%! I watched the keeper of my soul go from a gutsy, strong, fun-loving, working dog, to a frightened, frustrated shell of herself. I lost my partner and my best friend one piece at a time. And my heart along with her. The $60 or so that this test costs makes it the CHEAPEST test available. Not to mention the easiest. IMO breeders don't test simply because they don't care, it doesn't affect them. The late onset makes it unlikely that it will ever affect breeding or show careers. I can guarantee that I will never take a pup from a positive breeding and I would be hard pressed to even accept a carrier at this point. 

The handful of breeders doing it deserve praise and recognition.
I am thrilled to hear that Royalair is testing, not my kind of dog but an iconic breeder none the less.

And I do apologize for forgetting Boeslager. I knew they were as the bitch I was hoping for a pup from is of their breeding. Sadly that isn't happening.

So, can anyone recommend a breeder? Working lines, but not crazy drivey. I have a DDR/Czech male who is nearing 11 and I don't want another one with that drive. Great dog, love him to pieces, but terrible pet. No ASL, that's too soft.


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## Liesje

I've tested my dog. DDC Vet often runs a sale for $38 and they have about a 5 day turnaround.

If one is really interested in a puppy but the parents were not tested, ask the breeder if you can test the puppy. Like buying a green dog but checking hips and elbows first.


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## shepherdmom

" I'm sorry to disagree with you, if you have ever experienced DM in one of your dogs, and lived through having a GSD die from this terrible disease, you would definitely think it is the most important-"


Actually I'm going to have to disagree with you. I have experienced DM lost my heart dog, but DM testing isn't something I would would look for first in a breeder 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> Was it confirmed thru necropsy, shepherdmom?
> Sorry for your loss.



No. Everything else was ruled out. . He had all the classic symptoms. 


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## K9POPPY

O.K., I understand that I am not going to win this discussion, but I am positive that I will always select a breeder that has the intelligence and ethics to realize how important DM testing is for the future of the breed- and I still think DM testing is right up there on the top of my list. Current DM statistics on GSD's don't exaggerate the problem-


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## wolfstraum

DDC is the lab I am using too.....

I think DM might be one of the easier diseases to eliminate with judicious breeding decisions.....

I have had a dog with probable DM....she lived to be nearly 13 - but her last year she was severely compromised....but was still happy as she had been a kennel dog for 7 years and after I got her never had to be out in a kennel again...she spent her last year on a big cushy bed in my living room.....

I really don't know which is worse - they are both horrible....hemangio or DM....and I think there are familial components to hemangio as well.

Lee


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## K9POPPY

Thanks, Lee for your response. We have just lost our beloved GSD in February to DM, and over the years have lost several to hemangio, and I agree with you, both are terrible diseases. At least with hemangioma, our dogs went very quickly, whereas, our recent loss to DM took 6 months of agonizing our dog was dying a slow death- so sorry for your loss- Bob


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## Kyndaara

I'm gonna delurk and comment that I've watched the DM research from the vantage point of the UM-C research project and my other breed--Pembroke Welsh Corgi. Recently a relative of one of my dogs and one that has participated in the study and found to be "at risk" by testing was pronounced DM negative on necropsy by the UM-C research team. There' a lot of money in testing and registering results and quite frankly, I don't believe this is a test to base exclusion from breeding on. All they have been able to prove is that DM-positive dogs have a common marker--initially. Now they acknowledge there are DM positive dogs that don't have the marker--albeit, not many. I don't think they are there yet with this research. In GSDs I'd much rather see a more concentrated effort of not relying on testing of dogs less than 2 years old for hips and elbows, more examination of spondylosis and cancer issues.


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## RubyTuesday

K9Poppy, my apologies as you seem to think I was trivializing DM. Not at all, truly. But I'm not convinced that the best way to eradicate it is a test that is inconclusive when testing + and not always accurate when testing -. IMO, family histories are still more important when making breeding decisions than any single test for any single condition regardless of how terrible that condition is. Numerous neurological conditions closely mimic DM, these conditions are also devasting & they would NOT be detected by the DM test.

IMO, a major, Major, MAJOR problem with tests is that too much reliance is given to them by lazy &/or ignorant breeders and poorly informed puppy buyers. 

1st-Evaluate the individual dog. IF the individual isn't sound, healthy & uber stable do NOT breed it regardless of whatever other indicators are favorable.

2nd-Study, analyze & closely evaluate the extended family, especially full sibs & progeny if there's been a previous breeding. Does it appear to be a healthy, long lived, sound & stable family of exemplary temperaments. IF there are problems, exactly what are they? How serious are they? How frequently do they occur?

3rd-Proceed with testing & using test results to help with breeding decisions only if the individual dogs & extended family histories support the breeding. Too often excessive importance is given to tests rather than looking closely at the actual dogs & their relations.

Testing can provide additional info & insights, but only if due attention is 1st paid to carely selecting & evaluating potential breeding stock. When that isn't done breeding decsions rest on a few isolated bits of info rather than the rich array of info provided by looking at the whole dog & it's history, ie extended family.


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## K9POPPY

Thank you Ruby, I agree with you totally, and wish that breeders shared your knowledge and what is truly important. You have shared some really good information, and I hope it is seen by those who need it the most! Kind regards, Bob


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## shepherdmom

Everyone has their own health priorities. Thankfully, I've never had a dog with Hemo. For me, I've had DM and HD. Of the two the HD was much worse to watch. She didn't just suffer for the 6 months my boy with DM did, she had it for her entire 13+ years. And it was painful. Even with the FHO surgery on one side when a storm was coming you could tell. She never whined or complained but you could see the pain in her eyes and in her movements. As terrible as DM is to watch at least they don't seem to be in any pain. So for me in selecting a breeder my very first health question would be "what are the hips of everyone in your line"? If the hips were not there I wouldn't even check any further.


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## K9POPPY

You are correct, Shepherdmom, I am sure that there are differences in the suffering that GSD's experience with these terrible diseases, and yes, the hips are critical in selecting a pup. I can only hope that we live long enough that cures can be found for these terrible diseases in GSD's. Right now though, I still believe a responsible, ethical breeder of GSD's should make use of any available test to better the breed for the future, IMHO, Bob


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## K9POPPY

*DM testing?*

I will also add, then be silent, that I always have been concerned about hip health in selecting a GSD. Very important. But since losing our GSD to DM in February, I have been very vocal about DM testing. If the test had been available in 2005 when we purchased our GSD pup, then maybe we would have been more informed in our selection, possibly saving us from the extreme sorrow that we are living with the loss of our beloved GSD, Jagger. RIP, Jagger - Bob


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## Liesje

I think some are reluctant to rely on the test b/c 1) they already have first hand knowledge of their line's health and longevity and 2) some potential buyers do not understand the difference between a dog that is a carrier and a dog that is potentially affected. That said, I don't know any breeders that take DM lightly and are avidly against the test, it's just that some have not tested all of their breeding stock and/or may not require it when using an outside stud. It is also becoming very popular for stud dogs though, as more people ask about it or require it. I figured it was cheap and easy enough to do without me even deciding for myself what I think of the test and its accuracy.


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## RubyTuesday

> some potential buyers do not understand the difference between a dog that is a carrier and a dog that is potentially affected.


The putative carrier state is something that's often poorly understood by both buyers & breeders. A true carrier s/b demonstrably the same as someone who is clear of the deleterious gene. This is often not the case. In many conditions these so called carriers are affected but not nearly so severely. Often they can live relatively normal lives with little need for extraordinary medical intervention but their situation is NOT identical to those that are clear of the deleterious gene. Sickle cell & clotting disrders are classic, readily understood examples. 

For this reason I'm hesitant to automatically fall in with the notion that heterozygotes are truly unaffected. I'm torn as to whether even superior examples of the breed should reproduce if they're 'carriers' of disorders as serious as DM. Another major concern with breeding putative carriers is that this keeps the genes floating through the gene pool when they s/b severly minimized if not actually eradicated.


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## RubyTuesday

> Just did a breeding with a female who is -/- to a male who is -/+ - so negative to a carrier...at most I will get some carriers.


Let me reiterate that I'm torn as to how I feel about these breedings...torn as in conflicted & undecided. Just prior to getting Phoenix I was considering a lovely adult bitch that was a carrier. Despite my concerns I never decided against her. In fact I was deciding for her, but she became unavailable b/c her fertility problems resolved, & she conceived. I like her as much now as I did then & if she's still breeding when I'm ready for another pup I will be very, very torn as to whether I want one from her. 

I wanted to clarify this b/c I don't want anyone to think that I'm dissing breeders who are willing to breed clear to carrier. What I've read on this board indicates Lee is an outstanding breeder who produces GSDs that excel as companions as well as working & sport endeavors. My posts were not intended to judge or criticize those who breed carrier to clear.


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## Ryanhaus

I breed GSD's and Labrador Retrievers, 
and do testing for DM, but I also like to look for dogs that have long lived relatives in their pedigrees that also didn't have health problems of any kind and never needed to visit the vet constantly other than for a routine visit, dogs shouldn't need to "live" at the vets.
When people call and inquire about getting a pup they sometimes mention that their last dog had DM and if I test for it, whether the test is BS or not, as long as they are still doing research I will pay to have it done.

My dogs are all linebred on dogs I have met in person or have heard how they were doing from various people. 
I tried a few times to get some new bloodlines, one dog I kept was magnificent looking, with a good temperament, but she had two strikes against her, one she tested as a carrier for DM, but like they say breed to normals, but the second was that her sire died of cancer at a young age, so she went to live in a pet home.
I just kept a pup from my recent breeding that is closely related to all my dogs I have, so when the time comes to find her a mate it will be an outcross, so I will start looking now and maybe in the next two years I'll see and hear about a healthy dog who still has great grand parents that are still alive 



Here is Joy my 14 week old pup that I kept from my last litter:


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## LaRen616

Ryanhaus said:


> Here is Joy my 14 week old pup that I kept from my last litter:


She is gorgeous! :wub:


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## K9POPPY

What a beauty! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, such a substantial looking pup! BOB


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## Ryanhaus

Thank you!:blush:
I'm a sucker for solid blacks, here is a picture of Joy's competition  her
cousin Stella!!!!> 21 months!


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## LaRen616

Ryanhaus said:


> Thank you!:blush:
> I'm a sucker for solid blacks, here is a picture of Joy's competition  her
> cousin Stella!!!!> 21 months!


Wowza! She's magnificent! :wub:

How about you just give me a puppy?


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## K9POPPY

Awesome dog, awesome pic!!!!!!! Bob


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