# Opinions on using a prong collar?



## Squinks51 (Feb 10, 2014)

I'm thinking of using a prong collar for my female german shepherd but have heard so many bad things about them. also a lot of good results. i had talked to my friends dog trainer and he recommended me using a medium sized prong collar. before i go ahead on buying one i need some opinions on wether i should or not. my shepherd does Great off leash but city rules say i must have her on leash. and she pulls excessively when on one. I've tried using gentle leader but still doesn't seem to quiet work. she's been on one for a couple months but always seems to chew them apart and just keep pulling.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I don't have a problem with a prong as long as it's fitted and used correctly  It can be a great tool, but it's just that - a tool, training still has to be done regardless.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

if she can chew the collar it is *excessively* loose.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Used correctly prongs are fantastic tools. Used incorrectly they can be abusive. Important thing to remember when using them is to be tactful. Proper use of one is really something best coached 1 on 1. You cant really learn by reading about it and to a certain extent most probably couldnt learn to use them well by watching someone in a video. It has to be felt.

Use of them also varies dog to dog and situation to situation. It can be a little tricky.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Don't buy a crappy one - get a Herm Sprenger. You might find a decent one in a pet store, but check the prong tips to make sure they're nicely rounded and not the cheap blunt cut that they also sometimes sell.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Properly used, a prong collar is very humane - dogs don't mind them, and the prong allows you to communicate to you dog very effectively.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

We got a Titan brand prong from a pet store and it works pretty well. I don't know how well this brand would work for a very strong puller. Keep in mind the smaller prongs are much easier to size than the larger ones. 

I would look for a trainer to show you how to use one correctly. There are a lot of videos online of people using them inappropriately. 

It will help you have more control while you work on training. If you train well, you won't need a prong or head halter to have your dog walking on a loose leash in the future.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

I have used a prong collar on my dogs over the years under the guidance of a trainer. It was like power steering.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Used correctly prongs are fantastic tools. Used incorrectly they can be abusive. Important thing to remember when using them is to be tactful. Proper use of one is really something best coached 1 on 1. You cant really learn by reading about it and to a certain extent most probably couldnt learn to use them well by watching someone in a video. It has to be felt.
> 
> Use of them also varies dog to dog and situation to situation. It can be a little tricky.


This is well put advise! "Properly" used they can turn around a dog real quick! I did it wrong! The only dog I used it on...was the only dog I ever had that would not walk nicely on leash!!! 

I got lucky in the sense that my ineptitude did not cause additional issues! If you can get qualified counsel, in the proper use of a prong collar then please proceed.

If you can't do that...no need to reinvent the wheel. I've already proven that it's not a tool that should be used by the unskilled.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

It depends what dog you have, never ever use prong on nervous or agressive dogs. Prong should never be used for training, it's used for corrections of commands your dog knows well already. I used prong myself, a long time ago though, and found it a complete waste of time - the whole system of commands could be learned without even a leash. You may well ask, why people use them then? Because we have a trouble communicating with our dogs. While humans use speech, the dogs mainly use their body language. If you talk to your dog his language, you would use your body to command. Herding, for instance, is an art of dog training, where a man speaks to his dog using 99% of body language and 1% of sound signals. Dogs understand command by gesture much better and faster than words. Absolutely unaware that, we provide our dogs with wrong signals. It must be a terribly difficult task for the dog - to ignore that, what signals to him as a command one way, and try to undestand what we want from him by using voice command in the same time. If you use body language in order to train him to stop pulling with any length of your leash - with your dog pulling forward, stop yourself, click your tongue couple of times, and turn 180 degrees back, he will follow you. But, the dog always want to move, and he would be ahead of you in one minute of time. Repeat clicking and turning back until he gets, that, if he wants to move forward - he shouldn't pull. It will take you only half an hour to train, and number of times you would have to remind him will diminish with every day. To train "Heel" do it on a short leash, and just stop every time he pulls. Walk by the wall of some building on your left to make him stick to your leg. Hold his ball in your right hand placed at your heart, if you want him to look at you while he heels. If your dog decides to rush after a cat - start running backwards yourself, drop the leash, you woudn't have to call him even once, he will turn after you. One aspect I shouldn't miss here, that we don't live in environment, which allows us to train our dogs on every walk and everywhere. I'm talking about the danger of traffic. Before you train your dog to heel off leash, you can use a tool which wouldn't affect her nervous system as badly, as prong:
The Canny Collar 13.95 Colours Black, Red, Blue Collar. Enjoy Walking Your Dog again


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Well gee taggart thats kind of funny i use prongs in training all the time and found them fantastic. I wonder why that is?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Before you train your dog to heel off leash, you can use a tool which wouldn't affect her nervous system as badly, as prong:


A prong does not work by 'affecting the nervous system' - not sure where that comes from. Try one on your arm, or around your leg. Some people have even tried it around their own necks! It does not pinch, you don't feel the individual prongs - despite the collar name. You feel an all around, even tightening effect. Most dogs, once they are used to the prong, come running when they hear you pick it up and stretch out their necks for you to put it on - they associate it with walks and fun times - not with pain or negatives.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The prong always gets bashed, but are the people who bash them thinking about the dogs? Like, actually caring about their welfare? Probably not. They probably aren't thinking about how much damage a flat collar can do to a trachea. Or about being housebound because the owner can't/won't walk them. I know, just tell them to train their dogs...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The people who bash prongs and e collars are either parroting ignorant stuff they read somewhere and have no idea what theyre really talking about or have used them incorrectly and screwed up a dog and then went running to the internet to blame the tool instead of themselves. If youve found yourself bashing those tools maybe you should look deep inside.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> A prong does not work by 'affecting the nervous system' - not sure where that comes from. Try one on your arm, or around your leg. Some people have even tried it around their own necks! It does not pinch, you don't feel the individual prongs - despite the collar name. You feel an all around, even tightening effect. Most dogs, once they are used to the prong, come running when they hear you pick it up and stretch out their necks for you to put it on - they associate it with walks and fun times - not with pain or negatives.


I put one on my neck while yanking hard and the sensation, while not pleasant, was not so painful that I felt bad about using it. My reaction was not, "Oh lord make it stop!" But rather "Gee willickers! That sure got my attention!" It's a strange prickly sensation more than a painful one. Mind you, I never even have to use that level of correction on my dog. Gentle pressure is all that is necessary because she is fairly soft and understands how the collar works.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, we're just big meanies. I read on another forum - can't remember which breed it was - but someone was asking about the prong because it was recommended to them. Everyone was against it, and then the asker said the tip came from a GSD owner. They were pretty much in agreement that of course those "Shepherd folk" would use one....lmao...."Shepherd folk" oh boy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Used correctly prongs are fantastic tools. Used incorrectly they can be abusive. Important thing to remember when using them is to be tactful. Proper use of one is really something best coached 1 on 1. You cant really learn by reading about it and to a certain extent most probably couldnt learn to use them well by watching someone in a video. It has to be felt.
> 
> Use of them also varies dog to dog and situation to situation. It can be a little tricky.


There actually was a video on You Tube, where it showed the proper use of a prong collar. It was used on a Pit Bull that had been returned several times because it would pull hard on leash!

The guy turned the dog around in 5 minutes and I couldn't see where he did anything abusive to the dog!!??? 

I was amazed I tried to find it again but I can't??

I was one of those guys that Baillif spoke of, read about it online (or maybe half read a book??) and though well any idiot can do that...being an idiot.I felt I was qualified! I was wrong! 

Had I also read about getting instruction on the proper use of a prong collar by a qualified instructor...I would have done that also!

Today"my" take on tools is if "I' can't get the results "I" want using a regular collar and leash...then "I'm" doing something wrong!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> There actually was a video on You Tube, where it showed the proper use of a prong collar. It was used on a Pit Bull that had been returned several times because it would pull hard on leash!
> 
> The guy turned the dog around in 5 minutes and I couldn't see where he did anything abusive to the dog!!???
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Not the one I saw ,but I'll check it out.  You can never know to much thanks!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Well gee taggart


 You can gee, balifff, as much as you like, because you are not after some knowledge on this site. I differ from you, because I don't train dogs, I train people with dogs, and human training is far more difficult than training dogs. Well, rejected by modern science exactly because it affects dog nervous system negatively, prong collar has its history: 
Choke, prong and shock collars can irreversibly damage your dog.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

David Taggart do you think a prong can be used after researching a safe way to do so?

What kind of collar do you recommend and how long of a leash would you suggest for your students.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> If youve found yourself bashing those tools maybe you should look deep inside.


I have, that's why I won't use them. 

I'm not a good person and I cannot use these tools without turning into a tyrant, so I just abstain from them altogether. Frustration and impatience are personal flaws of mine and a bad combo with these tools.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> You can gee, balifff, as much as you like, because you are not after some knowledge on this site. I differ from you, because I don't train dogs, I train people with dogs, and human training is far more difficult than training dogs. Well, rejected by modern science exactly because it affects dog nervous system negatively, prong collar has its history:
> Choke, prong and shock collars can irreversibly damage your dog.


David. The link provides one persons opinion. Nothing scientific and no studies to back it up. The person is also selling products and must convince you how horrible anything is except his products.

It would be nice if folks would stop with blanket statements. How about we state that certain things are our opinion and stop with the fear mongering.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Merciel said:


> I have, that's why I won't use them.
> 
> I'm not a good person and I cannot use these tools without turning into a tyrant, so I just abstain from them altogether. Frustration and impatience are personal flaws of mine and a bad combo with these tools.


Sadly I can relate, but it changed for me when I got into Boxers! No way was any of that going to work with them, and a prong...the way I had been using it??? My Struddell (Wht Boxer) would have been a train wreck!!! So I changed, all my future dogs benefited.

But the problem wasn't Gunther or the tool it was "me"! Had I seen this video at the time:






had I used the prong like that guy, did my results with Gunther, would have been much different! 

Any training tool improperly used, is bad news.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> It depends what dog you have, never ever use prong on nervous or agressive dogs. Prong should never be used for training, it's used for corrections of commands your dog knows well already. I used prong myself, a long time ago though, and found it a complete waste of time - the whole system of commands could be learned without even a leash. You may well ask, why people use them then? Because we have a trouble communicating with our dogs. While humans use speech, the dogs mainly use their body language. If you talk to your dog his language, you would use your body to command. Herding, for instance, is an art of dog training, where a man speaks to his dog using 99% of body language and 1% of sound signals. Dogs understand command by gesture much better and faster than words. Absolutely unaware that, we provide our dogs with wrong signals. It must be a terribly difficult task for the dog - to ignore that, what signals to him as a command one way, and try to undestand what we want from him by using voice command in the same time. If you use body language in order to train him to stop pulling with any length of your leash - with your dog pulling forward, stop yourself, click your tongue couple of times, and turn 180 degrees back, he will follow you. But, the dog always want to move, and he would be ahead of you in one minute of time. Repeat clicking and turning back until he gets, that, if he wants to move forward - he shouldn't pull. It will take you only half an hour to train, and number of times you would have to remind him will diminish with every day. To train "Heel" do it on a short leash, and just stop every time he pulls. Walk by the wall of some building on your left to make him stick to your leg. Hold his ball in your right hand placed at your heart, if you want him to look at you while he heels. If your dog decides to rush after a cat - start running backwards yourself, drop the leash, you woudn't have to call him even once, he will turn after you. One aspect I shouldn't miss here, that we don't live in environment, which allows us to train our dogs on every walk and everywhere. I'm talking about the danger of traffic. Before you train your dog to heel off leash, you can use a tool which wouldn't affect her nervous system as badly, as prong:
> The Canny Collar 13.95 Colours Black, Red, Blue Collar. Enjoy Walking Your Dog again


Here is an article translated from German that studies the effect of different training methods; prong, e-collar and quitting signal, on a group of 42 working dogs. Cortisol (stress hormone) levels were measured, along with posture and calming signals. 

http://leerburg.com/pdf/comparingecollarprongandquittingsignal.pdf

Here is a snip from Tyler Muto on the same article.



> The Relativity of Pressure - K9 Connection
> 
> At the conclusion of the study it was found that the electronic collar had the highest learning effect, and the lowest stress. The quitting signal (resource pressure) had the lowest learning effect (so low that it could hardly be compared), and a considerable amount of stress for the trials where the learning effect was significant. Another way of looking at this is that the reward based technique, caused a considerable amount of stress in the dogs, for virtually no reason. The training via this method was not nearly as successful as the electronic collar, and caused as much or more stress. So in this study which type of pressure was more ethical? It seems the electronic collar takes the cake.


Proper use of aversives in training, including a prong collar, is more effective and less stressful on the dog than using a negative marker.

This opinion is based on scientific proof, not some theory of what is happening inside a dogs head.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> You can gee, balifff, as much as you like, because you are not after some knowledge on this site. I differ from you, because I don't train dogs, I train people with dogs, and human training is far more difficult than training dogs. Well, rejected by modern science exactly because it affects dog nervous system negatively, prong collar has its history:
> Choke, prong and shock collars can irreversibly damage your dog.



The article " Choke, prong and shock......." is a blog used to pimp some harness he is selling. My guess is...there will be a blog stating that his harness causes internal organ damage/rib damage etc. and you should buy my contraption....

I switched from a standard choke collar to a prong a long time ago for training and there is a huge difference...IMHO a prong is more "kind" to the animal than a standard choker. As of late, an individual who knows how to properly use a prong collar for training has educated me a bit...I used to think the dog was reacting to pain when I improperly used the prong, now I sense as I am using it more properly the dog views the correction as an annoyance...nothing more. Perhaps, those who know how to properly use a prong collar as a simple extension of communication between dog and handler are the ones who get the greatest impact out of a prong collar versus this notion that everyone using a prong collar has their dog choking, gasping and yelping in pain....the article describes the use of a prong collar in a very exaggerated situation.

SuperG


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't see any stress in these dogs. They were trained using leash pressure on prong collars. One is on an e-collar, the other on a prong.

Looks like they are having fun!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners;50[B said:


> [/B]00090]Here is an article translated from German that studies the effect of different training methods; prong, e-collar and quitting signal, on a group of 42 working dogs. Cortisol (stress hormone) levels were measured, along with posture and calming signals.
> 
> http://leerburg.com/pdf/comparingecollarprongandquittingsignal.pdf
> 
> ...


Love it when scientific studies about training get posted! Thanks Winners!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I don't see any stress in these dogs. They were trained using leash pressure on prong collars. One is on an e-collar, the other on a prong.
> 
> Looks like they are having fun!
> 
> Heeling Party - YouTube


Okay....those are fake dogs or it's photoshopped.....LOL\


SuperG


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

A really wide collar, 5-6 inches wide [ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/EzyDog-Extra-Wide-Neo-Collar/dp/B003BE9IXC[/ame], a traffic lead with a ring on its loop for extention 



 for "Heel" training, and a soft leather lead 1.5 metres to extend when necessary. Use a wide collar if you don't like a harness "NO DOGS" Orange Colour Coded Nylon Non-Pull Dog Harness & Padded Handle Lead Set (NOT GOOD WITH OTHER DOGS) PREVENTS Dog Accidents By Warning Others Of Your Dog In Advance!: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

How is a wide collar and stretchy lead going to stop a dog from pulling? Only makes pulling easier and more comfortable for him. 

You know they use wide collars and bungee cords in protection training to TEACH a dog to pull and lunge to the end of the line, don't you? I don't think that is the behavior that most people want when walking their dog down the street.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> A really wide collar, 5-6 inches wide http://www.amazon.co.uk/EzyDog-Extra-Wide-Neo-Collar/dp/B003BE9IXC, a traffic lead with a ring on its loop for extention Traffic Lead | eBay for "Heel" training, and a soft leather lead 1.5 metres to extend when necessary. Use a wide collar if you don't like a harness "NO DOGS" Orange Colour Coded Nylon Non-Pull Dog Harness & Padded Handle Lead Set (NOT GOOD WITH OTHER DOGS) PREVENTS Dog Accidents By Warning Others Of Your Dog In Advance!: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


So explain how this training is conducted. No piece of equipment solves any issue, or communicates any information to the dog without proper use.

Explain in detail how you train a dog not to pull with this equipment. Our rather how you train people to train dogs not to pull, since you don't train dogs.

David Winners


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

That is exactly a choke collar makes the dog pulling. It works as something strangles the dog, he wants to free from it, but the result is suffocating. The dog doesn't pull on prong because he doesn't like the effect. In both cases the dog doesn't like the effect. A wide collar doesn't stop your dog pulling at all, it is a reminder to him that he has a collar, and if he pulls - the number of nerve receptors would respond to the impact, that is how a wide collar becomes sensative. With a "turn back" method the dog doesn't pull not for avoiding the effect like with the prong, but because he doesn't want to turn back. The leash should be dangling loose.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Anyone who really knows how to train a dog knows a prong collar is the Safest, Most Effective Method.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Prong is the quickest on a short run. It doesn't work for long, you would continue with corrections not long after, it delays the next stage - the turns. While with "turn back" method you may start off leash training immediately after you see that he heels more or less. Exactly with these turns backwards and forwards, just clicking your tongue if the dog delays moving together with you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Horse crap. Walk the dog make a turn pop pop pop negative reinforcement till dog is back in position turn pop pop pop till dog is back in position and the dog quickly realizes he doesn't get the -R as long as he stays with you. Once you know he knows you use positive punishment marked with a no when he fails to stay in position into the turn the collar doesn't have to be what provides that and boom your dog is no longer dependent on the collar corrections to stay in position. It doesn't take long to teach and if you layered e collar in there too towards the end of the process the dog can be loose leash walked without a leash at all. Even that e collar isn't necessary though if you stay consistent


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## Zlata (Aug 31, 2013)

I personally don't care for them. Do I think they're ineffective? No--with the right trainer, they can be very effective, I'm sure. We went to a local obedience class where the instructor used prongs... but the puppies were only 14 weeks old. The puppies screamed and cried the entire time. It was horrible! Obviously, a good trainer isn't putting a prong on a dog that young, but it definitely ruined the entire idea to me. I suppose if my choice were a prong or a choke, I would pick a prong much before the choke. And if it came between a prong and getting rid of the dog entirely (where it may be euthanized), sure, I'd pick the prong. But the prong would truly have to be my last resort. I'm just not fond of them.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> That is exactly a choke collar makes the dog pulling. It works as something strangles the dog, he wants to free from it, but the result is suffocating. The dog doesn't pull on prong because he doesn't like the effect. In both cases the dog doesn't like the effect. A wide collar doesn't stop your dog pulling at all, it is a reminder to him that he has a collar, and if he pulls - the number of nerve receptors would respond to the impact, that is how a wide collar becomes sensative. With a "turn back" method the dog doesn't pull not for avoiding the effect like with the prong, but because he doesn't want to turn back. The leash should be dangling loose.


The pressure from a wide collar is spread across a wide surface, having no negative effect to the dog at all. This is why agitation collars are wide. What does reminding the dog that it has a collar on have to do with anything. If you think a dog doesn't know it has a flat collar on, of any width, I think you are mistaken.

If the leash is loose during training, how are you communicating to the dog what you want. You haven't explained anything. How are you teaching the dog the heel position by it wearing a collar? What is the motivation for the dog to keep the leash loose? How do you teach the dog?

In the method you poorly described, by turning around you are removing the reward of moving towards something. It is a way to reach some dogs to not pull. What if the dog comes across a large distraction that outweighs your ability to entice the dog away with a click of your mouth? Then the dog pulls against a wide collar, opposition reflex kicks in and the dog pulls harder. You are building drive in the dog through frustration. You make pulling worse.

You consistently offer advice that goes against conventional training theory and justify it with unfounded ideas of unknown and unsubstantiated origin. IMO, if you want to engage in technical discussion, you should back up your ideas with proof. Someone may believe what you state as fact, and their relationship with their dogs and their safety may suffer for it.

Please explain in detail how you train the heel position.

David Winners


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I choose not to use them. 

As for the individual who uses the fact that dogs come running when they hear the prong; well, they come running when they hear the choke chain too -- and while I have never seen any dog damaged by one, the prong people say they are so much less safe than the prong. My guess is they were going off of dogs that were choked out with the choke chain -- yeah, people used to do that, until the dog was unconscious. Maybe that would do damage. 

Whatever. My parents old English Setter would get all excited and come running when my dad came down with his boots and his gun -- Wow! Dad's going hunting and I can go with him, Yay!!!

So, yes, the dog will be excited when he hears the prong, that means a walk is coming. 

What do I really think about them? I think they are unnecessary. But, I would prefer a person use a prong than struggle with a dog. A leader does not struggle or fight with a dog, if the prong gives them the edge, so that they do not have to saw away, jerk, get pulled, plead with the dog, and otherwise appear like a weak, ineffective handler, then that person should go ahead and use the prong until the dog is trained. 

I will enjoy my way and try to keep mum as much as possible.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> A really wide collar, 5-6 inches wide


David Taggart, are you serious about using a 5-6 inch collar. Do you mean cm? 

I've never seen or heard of a 5-6 inch collar. 2 inch is big enough

Have you ever tried a prong collar? 

How many collars have you experimented with?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Zlata said:


> I personally don't care for them. Do I think they're ineffective? No--with the right trainer, they can be very effective, I'm sure. We went to a local obedience class where the instructor used prongs... but the puppies were only 14 weeks old. The puppies screamed and cried the entire time. It was horrible! Obviously, a good trainer isn't putting a prong on a dog that young, but it definitely ruined the entire idea to me. I suppose if my choice were a prong or a choke, I would pick a prong much before the choke. And if it came between a prong and getting rid of the dog entirely (where it may be euthanized), sure, I'd pick the prong. But the prong would truly have to be my last resort. I'm just not fond of them.


Not using one is certainly a choice. Your example though is typical. It's kind of like being against swimming because you saw one person drown.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Not using one is certainly a choice. Your example though is typical. It's kind of like being against swimming because you saw one person drown.


hahahah very nice example


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd probably make waves saying this but if you are skillful tactful and experienced there is no reason you can't get away with a prong collar on a 14 week old puppy (even a nervy soft one) and train effectively with it and have a happy snappy end product. Would I advise it over the internet? No. The problem isn't the tool.

There's a very great (world class) and popular trainer a lot of you know by name who sharpens his prong collars to finish dogs.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> If the leash is loose during training,


That is what you have to achieve - your dog should watch you and react on your bodily movement, whether or not you are going to stop and turn back. No "pops" just "stops", a wide flat collar is sensitive, you are correct - principally it works as agitation collar, just the training targets a different thing.


> What if the dog comes across a large distraction that outweighs your ability to entice the dog away with a click of your mouth?


Are you training everything at once? Of course not. If your dog heels perfectly off leash passing by some, say, piece of cheese on the ground, he will walk pass some bird, then some cat, then some dog. Here could be one trouble: your dog has different moods different days, one day he has a headache, some other day he feels perfect and ready to attack. You should be prepared for that and avoid exercising his emotions unnecessarily. But, here I'm going again: in such situations with high distractions "turn back" happens to be a strong reflex, strong enough to make your dog turn round and follow your move away from the object. Body language works fundamentally on the prey drive itself without any clicking. It is no good just to stop if you realize the danger, you have to turn back and start walking taking moderate pace every time you think your dog might react. Then, you shouldn't wait until a challenging situation may occur, you can "look for troubles" in order to train your dog. And most inportantly - train yourself not to lose composure.


> You consistently offer advice that goes against conventional training theory


 I'm sure somebody has provided a video with this technique not so long ago. I'm very surprised at your reaction, it is not something new at all.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MadLab said:


> David Taggart, are you serious about using a 5-6 inch collar. Do you mean cm?
> 
> I've never seen or heard of a 5-6 inch collar. 2 inch is big enough


The collar he linked is 45mm wide. 45 millimeters=1.78 inches


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Taggart I wanna see a video of you walking a dog with high prey drive around stray cats using nothing but body language and tongue clicks

Whatever happens don't cut away!


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## Zlata (Aug 31, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Not using one is certainly a choice. Your example though is typical. It's kind of like being against swimming because you saw one person drown.


Ha! Or it's like realizing there are plenty of different methods and tools to learn how to swim, and there are different strokes for everyone.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

train your dog not to pull. don't depend on a certain
collar or leash.



Squinks51 said:


> I'm thinking of using a prong collar for my female german shepherd but have heard so many bad things about them. also a lot of good results. i had talked to my friends dog trainer and he recommended me using a medium sized prong collar. before i go ahead on buying one i need some opinions on wether i should or not. my shepherd does Great off leash but city rules say i must have her on leash. and she pulls excessively when on one. I've tried using gentle leader but still doesn't seem to quiet work. she's been on one for a couple months but always seems to chew them apart and just keep pulling.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> train your dog not to pull. don't depend on a certain
> collar or leash.


How? That is about as vague as you can get.

David Winners


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Zlata said:


> Ha! Or it's like realizing there are plenty of different methods and tools to learn how to swim, and there are different strokes for everyone.


I don't go swimming..I don't like water in my face!


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

My dog has pano really bad, so I have not been walking him. He used to walk really well on a leash without pulling, but once a week when we got o dog club he pulls more and more. The trainer asked if I had a prong collar...umm, no they are not my first choice. I mentioned I did have a e collar and he laughed. Yeah, I got the irony. Anyway I got a prong (HS). Last Sunday the trainer made sure it was sized correctly and it really made a difference. Kaleb didn't seem to mind it. I don't think I will use it all the time though. 

Maybe Kaleb is confused. When we get there and do obedience he has to heel, but when he's doing bite work he is encouraged to pull on the leash. He is wearing a fursaver for that though. IDK, I'll just keep working with him. I hope he gets relief from the pano soon.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Do you not use a harness for bite work? If I put a harness on a dog and the leash or tab is hooked to it that's license to pull like a mad sled dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

trcy said:


> My dog has pano really bad, so I have not been walking him. He used to walk really well on a leash without pulling, but once a week when we got o dog club he pulls more and more. The trainer asked if I had a prong collar...umm, no they are not my first choice. I mentioned I did have a e collar and he laughed. Yeah, I got the irony. Anyway I got a prong (HS). Last Sunday the trainer made sure it was sized correctly and it really made a difference. Kaleb didn't seem to mind it. I don't think I will use it all the time though.
> 
> Maybe Kaleb is confused. When we get there and do obedience he has to heel, but when he's doing bite work he is encouraged to pull on the leash. *He is wearing a fursaver for that though.* IDK, I'll just keep working with him. I hope he gets relief from the pano soon.


You mean a choke chain with large links. Aren't you afraid you will crush his wind pipe, destroy his thyroid, give him a stroke or some other horrible fate?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> That is what you have to achieve - your dog should watch you and react on your bodily movement, whether or not you are going to stop and turn back. No "pops" just "stops", a wide flat collar is sensitive, you are correct - principally it works as agitation collar, just the training targets a different thing.
> 
> Are you training everything at once? Of course not. If your dog heels perfectly off leash passing by some, say, piece of cheese on the ground, he will walk pass some bird, then some cat, then some dog. Here could be one trouble: your dog has different moods different days, one day he has a headache, some other day he feels perfect and ready to attack. You should be prepared for that and avoid exercising his emotions unnecessarily. But, here I'm going again: in such situations with high distractions "turn back" happens to be a strong reflex, strong enough to make your dog turn round and follow your move away from the object. Body language works fundamentally on the prey drive itself without any clicking. It is no good just to stop if you realize the danger, you have to turn back and start walking taking moderate pace every time you think your dog might react. Then, you shouldn't wait until a challenging situation may occur, you can "look for troubles" in order to train your dog. And most inportantly - train yourself not to lose composure.
> I'm sure somebody has provided a video with this technique not so long ago. I'm very surprised at your reaction, it is not something new at all.


Oh sure, I'm familiar with the "turn around" method. It doesn't involve the dog being engaged in prey drive by your body movement. It doesn't involve an agitation collar. It involves classical conditioning, and if you use markers in conjunction, operant conditioning. 

If the dog has a headache, it still has to heel. If the dog is aggressive, it still has to heel. Making excuses for the dog is letting the dog train you. Working within the thresholds of the dog is smart training.

How do you train the dog to heel in the first place? You skipped all of that and went right to heeling under distraction. Explain your training steps, and why you do them. You can't just take a dog out, put it on a leash and walk past some cheese. You still haven't explained that.

You disagree with proven training methods and substitute your own as far superior, but you fail to explain what those methods are. You advocate head collars and huge flat collars, but don't explain the training techniques you use that make these tools superior to other methods. You just point to an unscientific article and make comments about things effecting the dogs nervous system.

David Winners


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> walking a dog with high prey drive around stray cats using nothing but body language


If you ignore cats yourself, your dog would ignore them as well. Young wolf cubs hunt everything - frogs, butterflies and squirrels. If they were driven just by instinct they would never survive, they have to know WHAT to hunt. And, nobody else, but their parents provide them with this knowledge. I use my body language to tell the dog that cats are absolutely worthless prey.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't even think you own dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Wow, just wow. Well, anyway. Another voice for the Herm Springer. I like the regular collar over the quick release; to me it is easier to put on and I do NOT have strong hands. The plate on the herm springer makes putting it together easier and the tips are smooth and rounded, not sharp like on the cheap ones. Plus a basic Herm Springer is not that much more expensive than a cheap collar. 

I think they are a godsend for a dog who pulls. You can still do the turn around method with them and work towards being on a flat but that gets a little harder to do with the flat when they are older and stronger.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Baillif said:


> I'd probably make waves saying this but if you are skillful tactful and experienced there is no reason you can't get away with a prong collar on a 14 week old puppy (even a nervy soft one) and train effectively with it and have a happy snappy end product. Would I advise it over the internet? No. The problem isn't the tool.



I agree! Most don't realize there are many methods that can be used with a prong collar (or any collar). 



Baillif said:


> Do you not use a harness for bite work? If I put a harness on a dog and the leash or tab is hooked to it that's license to pull like a mad sled dog.



My dogs are the same way. From a young age they are conditioned to pull like crazy in a harness. A flat collar/fur saver means they have to have manners. Dogs easily become equipment wise.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Do you not use a harness for bite work? If I put a harness on a dog and the leash or tab is hooked to it that's license to pull like a mad sled dog.


fursaver is a collar not a harness. They enocorage pulling when doing bite work. This is puppy bite work. He has not done the sleeve yet. He's to young. 



Jack's Dad said:


> You mean a choke chain with large links. Aren't you afraid you will crush his wind pipe, destroy his thyroid, give him a stroke or some other horrible fate?


No, that's what they use for the bite work. He never coughs when doing the bite work. The leash is hooked on the dead ring, so it doesn't choke. Unlike when he pulls with the martingale and he does cough. No coughing with the prong either, but he's not pulling on that one.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I know it's a collar I just don't really get why you'd use one over a harness


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I know it's a collar I just don't really get why you'd use one over a harness


I don't own a harness and the other dogs there are not harnessed. I have his seat belt harness, but he doesn't train in that.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You should get an agitation harness. IMO a must have.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Baillif said:


> You should get an agitation harness. IMO a must have.


I'll defiantly look into getting one.


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

While the prong can work in the right hands with someone who knows exactly what they're doing, I've found that simple positive reinforcement has been most effective for me. I actually started out working prongs on my dogs, but when I started teaching classes, the use of the prong seemed to be a bit too particular for many people to pick up easily. The positive reinforcement on the other hand, seems easier to me, is at least equally effective as long as you put in the effort, and I've found that it gives me more solid results. The prong can do the job of teaching the dog what is acceptable loose leash walking and what is not, but I've always liked the extra dose of focus I get with positive, or treat training methods. It may take longer to proof than the prong, but I enjoy not having to rely on a certain type of training collar or harness to walk my dog calmly down the street. My shepherd is fairly drivey but because I've practiced very consistently with him he knows that when he is on leash, his job is to focus on me unless I tell him otherwise. Ultimately, the decision is up to you, but I thought I'd throw my preferred method out there. If you don't have much experience with this method, the Training Positive channel on Youtube does a good little tutorial -


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think the Training Positive channel is pretty good. The talking head portion of his videos drives me crazy though.

David Winners


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

Haha, yeah, he could probably stand to take a step back, but as long as his tutorial's good, I'm not going to rag him too much


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

No one seems to have mentioned this. Inappropriate use of a prong collar can lead to superstitious fears. I do believe that I amplified my GSD's dog aggression years ago with the inappropriate use of a prong. I use one now as well as an ecollar but I worked with a trainer so that I got it right this time.

And just so I explain what I mean. A superstitious fear is when the correction is wrongly paired to something unintended. My dog looks at another dog and growls. I (again 20 years ago) yank on the leash and prong, my dog is looking at the other dog and feeling the pain from the collar and my yanking and associates pain with the other dog. She gets more pissed off at other dog. etc.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

DutchKarin said:


> No one seems to have mentioned this. Inappropriate use of a prong collar can lead to superstitious fears. I do believe that I amplified my GSD's dog aggression years ago with the inappropriate use of a prong. I use one now as well as an ecollar but I worked with a trainer so that I got it right this time.
> 
> And just so I explain what I mean. A superstitious fear is when the correction is wrongly paired to something unintended. My dog looks at another dog and growls. I (again 20 years ago) yank on the leash and prong, my dog is looking at the other dog and feeling the pain from the collar and my yanking and associates pain with the other dog. She gets more pissed off at other dog. etc.


Absolutely. 

I never correct a dog unless I am 100% sure that I know the dog understand what it is being corrected for.

Good post DK

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Superstition is more likely to occur if you didn't stick with it or in that case immediately removed the other trigger dog. It doesn't take a dog long to play one of these things is not like the other. Dog sees other dog growls then gets pronged. Now if you prong and allow your dog to continue to stare at the other dog in my opinion that was a crap punishment. If you Immediately leave the situation and the other trigger dog you run a higher risk of creating that bad association. I'd positive punish while marking with a no and continue to pop and no the dog till I had the dogs attention. It's absolutely clear it's coming from me and I've snapped the dog out of it. 

At some point the dog is gonna realize oh hey being corrected for the reactivity I'll stop being stupid about it. It's not that it isn't important to be absolutely clear about what you're correcting the dog for because it is, but superstition isn't the end of the world it can quickly be cleared up or prevented altogether if you are careful through the process.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> Are you training everything at once? Of course not. If your dog heels perfectly off leash passing by some, say, piece of cheese on the ground, he will walk pass some bird, then some cat, then some dog.
> .


You really do not understand the different drives and how they are engaged at all, do you?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is the prong collar I like to use. 
Herm Sprenger Curogan 3.25mm Prong

As far as using a harness in protection. I have titled 4 dogs without ever needing a harness. I use an agitation collar and then move to the prong. Except for Donovan, who I double lined using both the pinch and the harness, I pretty much only use the harness when the dog is doing suit work on the pole.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> If you ignore cats yourself, your dog would ignore them as well..


Clearly I've been doing it all wrong. I just need to ignore all the triggers and things will magically be ok. This is factually impossible because plenty of dogs lunge after prey their handlers can't even see.

Seriously I would love to see a before and after video of this, outlining exactly what you're doing.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Maybe it didnt work because your dog had a headache. You should really be more considerate of your dogs emotional states before exposing them to such stresses on their delicate nervous systems.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Wow.. interesting read. Personally I think it's always nice to have some disagreements in a thread just because you start getting all this research and in depth details from either side.. 

Anyways, I never used a prong before.. due to sheer ignorance on them and I didn't want to damage titan for my lack of knowledge. Finally had my one on one with a trainer and she highly suggested it. She fit him for one and we trained on it for some time. It made SUCH a difference! While he wasn't pulling your arm off during a walk.. he was definitely pulling enough to cause tension. We've used it for a few days now and Titan does still get just as excited to go for a walk when I pull it out. 

So my opinion, as someone who didn't know much about prongs before is.. If you go to a trainer and learn how to properly correct with it, then they are awesome. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If youre using it correctly you can walk the dog with zero tension right beside your leg. Just using it and doing the same crap you did on a flat collar that created the pulling in the first place is not the way to go. It takes technique and consistency. The hard prong corrections that send a dog to the ground yelping arent necessary. There is a time and place for those on some dogs but if you have to ask when that is you probably shouldnt be doing it yet.

Its like taking apart a car. You can do it with a wrench or you can do it with a bomb. The bomb is obviously quicker but much more messy and there are potential unintended consequences after. Tactful well timed corrections is generally the way to go.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Funny that you bring up cars. I was thinking that I view them (cars) the way some people view prong collars - I hate driving and think it's dangerous. Well, it sure can be, lol. I'd much rather take public transportation except it doesn't run out here. I'd much rather ride a bicycle except it's not practical. Huh, I'm stuck driving. IMO, the prong's the same: if you don't need it, great. If you see a need for it, then use it carefully. Lol.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> Anyways, I never used a prong before.. due to sheer ignorance on them and I didn't want to damage titan for my lack of knowledge.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well you were much smarter than me!  I failed to realize that I did not know what I was doing!

As Baillif said one on one with a good instructor and as you figured out on your on. Good call by you!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> If youre using it correctly you can walk the dog with zero tension right beside your leg. Just using it and doing the same crap you did on a flat collar that created the pulling in the first place is not the way to go. It takes technique and consistency. The hard prong corrections that send a dog to the ground yelping arent necessary. There is a time and place for those on some dogs but if you have to ask when that is you probably shouldnt be doing it yet.
> 
> Its like taking apart a car. You can do it with a wrench or you can do it with a bomb. The bomb is obviously quicker but much more messy and there are potential unintended consequences after. Tactful well timed corrections is generally the way to go.


Yep and that is pretty much what the video I posted showed! I was stunned!!!

I pretty much did, uh nothing like that! The only dog I used it on (poorly), was the only dog I had that would not walk well on leash! Pretty much a 10 year penalty for early screw ups

Back and forth on lots of "tools" here but the bottom line is any tool can produce results..if you "know" what you're, doing and how to use it!

Consult a pro on whatever you want to use before using it, is the best advice anyone could take from this thread!

Oh and in the intrest of trying not to be reasonable...I think head halters are crap and I won't use them! :laugh: Yeah I said it! Carry on!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Well you were much smarter than me!  I failed to realize that I did not know what I was doing!
> 
> As Baillif said one on one with a good instructor and as you figured out on your on. Good call by you!


We live and we learn!  I bet you know better now! 



Chip18 said:


> I think head halters are crap and I won't use them! :laugh: Yeah I said it! Carry on!


For us... worked great on his head... but I never figured out how to train him out of it.. on=no pull.. off=back to pulling.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DutchKarin said:


> No one seems to have mentioned this. Inappropriate use of a prong collar can lead to superstitious fears. I do believe that I amplified my GSD's dog aggression years ago with the inappropriate use of a prong. I use one now as well as an ecollar but I worked with a trainer so that I got it right this time.
> 
> And just so I explain what I mean. A superstitious fear is when the correction is wrongly paired to something unintended. My dog looks at another dog and growls. I (again 20 years ago) yank on the leash and prong, my dog is looking at the other dog and feeling the pain from the collar and my yanking and associates pain with the other dog. She gets more pissed off at other dog. etc.


Yep most likely I did that screw up also!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

sechattin said:


> While the prong can work in the right hands with someone who knows exactly what they're doing, I've found that simple positive reinforcement has been most effective for me. I actually started out working prongs on my dogs, but when I started teaching classes, the use of the prong seemed to be a bit too particular for many people to pick up easily. The positive reinforcement on the other hand, seems easier to me, is at least equally effective as long as you put in the effort, and I've found that it gives me more solid results. The prong can do the job of teaching the dog what is acceptable loose leash walking and what is not, but I've always liked the extra dose of focus I get with positive, or treat training methods. It may take longer to proof than the prong, but I enjoy not having to rely on a certain type of training collar or harness to walk my dog calmly down the street. My shepherd is fairly drivey but because I've practiced very consistently with him he knows that when he is on leash, his job is to focus on me unless I tell him otherwise. Ultimately, the decision is up to you, but I thought I'd throw my preferred method out there. If you don't have much experience with this method, the Training Positive channel on Youtube does a good little tutorial - How to teach your dog to STOP pulling! (part 1) - YouTube


Yeah I was going to try that on my ill used prong dog but sadly I never got the chance, lost him in 2010.
But I had great success with following dogs, I came to the conclusion...that for "me" anyway, If I'm not getting the results I want with what I'm doing then the problem is "me" and not the dog!:blush:


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## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I don't even think you own dogs


Ha! I sincerely hope you're right.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Once you started to use prong - there would be no end to it. The original idea to walk your dog off leash ceasing your reliance on any collars starts to seem too far fetched only couple of years after.
Some people I trained had show line GSDs, after their dogs learned dogs' etiquette and prey on ball and other toys only, they had to learn to pull on the leash again - because on the show ring your dog has to pull and run forward. Everything their handlers had to do was to put a chain-choke collar on them. It just gave me a thought, if I put a prong on already well trained off leash dog - would it make him wishing to misbehave? I really want to know what is going on in the dog's head when you use a prong. One may not care.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Um, I've used a prong collar with my dog and he does not need one for leash walking, accompanying me to work, public appearances, etc. He is also a show dog (though he also trains and competes in other sports including Schutzhund) and does not pull all over the place. He is *trained* so he knows the rules. Showing a dog does NOT look pretty when your dog throws his head down and his chest forward and goes barreling around the ring. David Taggart do you have *any* experience ring training and showing dogs?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Showing a dog does NOT look pretty when your dog throws his head down and his chest forward


No, I had a handler for my previous dogs. Head down? It should be up. Chest forward? My imagination cannot work it out here. "Forward" doesn't mean "side to side". And the only thing I said - that it is not difficult to train your dog to pull again after months and months of training not to do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> No, I had a handler for my previous dogs. Head down? It should be up. Chest forward? My imagination cannot work it out here. "Forward" doesn't mean "side to side". And the only thing I said - that it is not difficult to train your dog to pull again after months and months of training not to do it.


Dogs are pretty smart, and pretty trainable. Lots of people use a specific collar for a specific task. There is a show lead, and a show collar, and the dog knows he is going in the ring, and because we prepare our dogs prior to paying money and going through the process of finding the right show and the right judges, etc, the dog has no problem actually doing his job in the ring. 

Just because you own a show dog, does not mean you have to have super-developed upper arm muscles. 

Will someone Paleeeze explain that to Odie! LOL! 

Actually, she isn't all that bad. She has been shown and has a BH and a SchH1. So she has had to do all that proper heeling, as well as having to trot out in the show ring. Just like ALL the other dogs bred to the German standard. 

I think that some Americans just have a convenient excuse as to why they aren't bothering to train their dogs in basic leash manners. Yes, you don't want the dog to sit down in the show ring so you have to train them to stand, and not automatically sit, which you train the automatic sit in the obedience ring. But really, it isn't that hard. We are more confused than the dog is I bet.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Squinks51 said:


> I'm thinking of using a prong collar for my female german shepherd but have heard so many bad things about them. also a lot of good results. i had talked to my friends dog trainer and he recommended me using a medium sized prong collar. before i go ahead on buying one i need some opinions on wether i should or not. my shepherd does Great off leash but city rules say i must have her on leash. and she pulls excessively when on one. I've tried using gentle leader but still doesn't seem to quiet work. she's been on one for a couple months but always seems to chew them apart and just keep pulling.


 To the OP... did you get your question answered?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

David Taggart said:


> No, I had a handler for my previous dogs. Head down? It should be up. Chest forward? My imagination cannot work it out here. "Forward" doesn't mean "side to side". And the only thing I said - that it is not difficult to train your dog to pull again after months and months of training not to do it.


You completely missed my point. If a dog is properly leash trained AND ring trained there is no need to re-train the ring training. Dogs are not dumb. They should and do know the difference between having good manners walking on a leash and ring training for a show. Also dogs should NOT be pulling during a show (your other post mentioned re-training a dog to "pull"). The dog should move out ahead of the handler but a properly ring trained dog can gait freely with his head up and not be pulling into the lead.


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