# Dominant dog - Pros and cons?



## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Hi All! 

My first time posting on your forum. I've probably read 1000+ messages.

I possibly might have a dominant dog or it's my dog clearly taking advantage of my handler inexperience (my first time owning a dog and I question my sanity for getting a shepherd)! 
*MY QUESTION: WHY would anyone want a dominant dog? What are the advantages and disadvantages of having one?* My arms are tired of being bruised and biting abrasions.

My pup (male, neutered) of 8.5 months now, Tofu, was previously assessed 2 months ago as being dominant and territorial by a head trainer and I followed their private trainer on applying corrections with a Halti/gentle leader to control the biting that I was getting from frustration, refusal to obey, leash reactivity and redirection. This trainer felt that Tofu responds well to Halti corrections and didn't feel the need to move to a nylon slip or prong collar, despite my asking. 

I STILL find that I'm constantly having power struggles with Tofu. I have since contacted a Schutzhund Club in the vicinity. The representative spoke to me at length. Via my description, she agreed that he's dominant because there's always a 4 second hesitation before executing a command SLOWLY and she said it's the dog thinking if it's "worth doing or to disobey". He's mouthy when I tell him to get off furniture and there are fights when I need to remove garbage out of his mouth because he won't drop it (no amount of Halti tugging/trading helps). When I escalate the corrections, Tofu strengthens his biting/lunging. She noted that that dominance cannot be untrained and it's a lifetime of management to keep the dog from getting one up on me. She owns two dominant dogs herself. She suggested an experienced Schutzhund trainer and we're going for an evaluation today. *Fingers crossed that the evaluator today will just tel me that his reactions are just because I'm an inexperienced handler and that he's truly not dominant.*

Background: I'm his second household and got him at 18 weeks from a family with 4 young children under the age of 6 years old. The mother said she was diagnosed with cancer and didn't have the energy for the puppy. Claimed that Tofu was never dominant. They admit to never having trained him at all; clearly he didn't know how to walk on a leash and was goin gup on furniture. Tofu has a pink mark on his nose and I now wonder if he was severely punished at one point and hence never showed dominance there. I initially followed a purely positive trainer for teething biting but I think that might have increased his confidence when I'd yelp or remove myself from room as instructed. I've gone through 3 private instructors with multiple lessons. I had a phone conversation with an online trained that I respect in Washington State, Sean McDaniel, who advocated using a nylon slip. In none of his training does he promote this, but he says in his private practice he's had a lot of experience with dominant/aggressive dogs. He said it'll only take 2 occurrences for a dog to normal understand that I am in charge. I haven't escalated up to this yet. We living downtown and he's not spooked by any of the people, noise and cars. He's extremely friendly with strangers and plays well at the dog park (provided that the other dog enjoys having it's neck pulled). Per weekday, we are out 4hrs and walk 12km (7.5 miles) of city walking, 30-45 minutes at dog park and 30 minutes training. We do more on weekends.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Put an e-collar on him and have a trainer show you how to use it properly. Your dog will learn the "drop it" command very quick


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I'm going to guess that you don't have a truly genetically dominant dog and that the dog has learned to take advantage of your handler inexperience. The first clue is that you have a white GSD. While I suppose it is possible that a white GSD could be genetically dominant, I think the odds are low because of the focus of breeding being primarily on coat color and not strong temperament. True genetic dominance has value in the right amount and in the right hands when the dog is being trained in bite work because the right amount of dominance can add power to the bite work. You probably have what you would see on every episode of Cesar Milan's old show, where the dog has taken the leadership role because of the handler. It is also revealing that the person who assessed your dog as dominant and then recommended a gentle leader. A gentle leader on a truly dominant dog is ridiculous. The person in the schutzhund club sound like she gave you bad information and an inaccurate assessment of your dog. I seriously doubt your dog had any good foundation training where food and or prey drive were used to shape behaviors and increase your dog's motivation to be obedient. The pink spot on your dog's nose is likely related to his white coat/pigment. You most likely have a persistent, challenging dog with no foundation training paired with an inexperienced handler. Seriously dominant GSDs can send their handler, even experienced ones, to the hospital. Your dog likely waits four seconds to follow a command because he wasn't provided a motivational foundation. When that occurs, if the dog knows the command and is still hesitant, he gets a fast sharp correction on the prong, but that takes timing and skill and requires experience. Many sport trainers looking for very fast sits and downs still give prong corrections even though the dog had a proper foundation and knows the command. They are punished because the command is followed too slowly. It is not a brutal correction and the dog is not phased. Plus, dogs that have never received proper corrections early often act like they are being killed and get reactive because they have not learned from an early age that a prong correction will not kill them and they manage to work through it, unless they have significant temperament issues. Biting at 8.5 months is common and there are different ways to deal with it, and it will go away with maturity and correct handling. The other good news in addition to not having a truly genetic dominant dog is that you described your dog as social and not dog aggressive, with decent nerves. You are going to have to get some help from a competent trainer, which obviously, is not that easy to find. Then you need to go back and work on foundation training using food and a toy if he has decent prey drive, as well as positive punishment with a prong collar. the problem, I'm guessing, is that you don't have the skills to know what to do. Knowing how to correctly size and use a prong collar takes experience. The problem is fixable, but you need the right help and so far, it sounds like you have received incompetent evaluations of you dog and bad advice. In one photo it looks like you have a harness on your dog, which allows you no control over the dog and gives him a greater advantage in disobeying you.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

deleted double post


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Dominant is not a trait but a behavior. E.g. you can only be dominant in certain situations like if you have people under you and you assert yourself to them. But then if your superior calls you to his/her(!!) office, you can't show dominance unless you want to be fired. True dominant behavior is not offensive or aggressive; it is assertive and confident. They don't instigate fights but won't back down either from a thread. They are stable and fair (among dogs). But if you give dogs the reins, they will rein you. 
Most dogs that people call "dominant" are untrained, unmanaged and allowed to be bullies.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Double post occurred during edit.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Dominant is not a trait but a behavior. E.g. you can only be dominant in certain situations like if you have people under you and you assert yourself to them. But then if your superior calls you to his/her(!!) office, you can't show dominance unless you want to be fired. True dominant behavior is not offensive or aggressive; it is assertive and confident. They don't instigate fights but won't back down either from a thread. They are stable and fair (among dogs). But if you give dogs the reins, they will rein you.
> Most dogs that people call "dominant" are untrained, unmanaged and allowed to be bullies.



I disagree. There is the trait of genetic dominance. It is not that common. You are describing a learned behavior which is a learned dominance, if you will, and is not genetic or a trait.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Chuck94! said:


> Put an e-collar on him and have a trainer show you how to use it properly. Your dog will learn the "drop it" command very quick


 
I think the poster is too inexperienced to get into trying to properly learn how to use an e-collar and should try to master other tools and approaches first. Too many people don't know how to correctly use an e-collar.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Most people have never seen a truly dominant dog. IMO, a dominant dog will fight you instead of doing something against his will. I don't mean nip at you to try and punk you out. I mean truly fight you with intent to do you harm.

The chances of a white GSD being a dominant dog are pretty much zero. That isn't a negative comment towards white dogs. 

You don't want a dominant dog. A hard dog, confident dog, towards the extreme end of willful and courageous, sure. If you have the experience and support to handle a dog like that, they are a blast. 

I think the OP needs a couple one on one sessions with an experienced trainer and a plan to work on OB and good manners.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks for the detailed posts and analysis. Glad to know that a white shepherd isn't normally, genetically dominant. I feel that it's *very* likely that my dog is taking advantage of me. During a training session on the Halti, the moment when I handed the leash to the trainer, my dog whipped his head around and was completely aware of who was holding the reigns. Trainer noticed the change in focus. It's been 2 months that we've been using a Halti; previously, it was harness (because we have ignorant laws here that forbids collars on dogs >45 pounds, citing painful to dog). I'm willing to risk the fine and start on a prong collar.

I bought a Herm Sprenger 2.5mm today and hopefully will get a lesson today on fitting it. I like Tyler Muto's video on introducing prong pressure 



 I understand that if the prong excites the dog too much to redirecting on me, that I might need to move to a nylon slip collar. I will save any e-collar training for a much later date for off-leash proofing. 

@David Winners: All my trainings have been private one-on-one sessions to address biting. :frown2: Like Chip Blasiole said, it's really hard to find a GOOD trainer and hence why I'm going to see a 4th trainer today that is an hour drive away. I've been following a lot of Michael Ellis for the basic obedience and luring. 

Did anyone watch the video put out by Ed Frawley on Leerburg "Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs"? He gives some insane (according to me) 7/10 corrections on prong. Is this normal?

This is us with out basic commands at age 7.5 months: 



 Does anyone have comments? Any suggestions for my training? Am I too nice?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am going to go off topic for a moment. I would really stop all of that mileage where you are pounding the pavement in the city. On leash walking really isn't exercise for a dog and manmade surfaces are really hard on his joints as well as yours. Are there any natural trails that you can take him on? I would suggest far less time city walking and maybe spending more time at the park. If you go to the dog park, do NOT permit your dog to pull on another dog's neck. That can end up very badly for your dog if he were to do that to the wrong dog. 

Are your training sessions 30 minutes straight or broken up throughout the day? 

I don't see this dog needing much in way of corrections. He just needs better direction from you although the video shows he and you are doing quite nicely. Good trainers can be hard to come by in many areas. Sorry you don't seem to be having much luck finding one that works for the both of you. 

ME is very good and it shows in your work. Let me also recommend an addition to your repertoire. I think this book can help you. 

https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think the poster is too inexperienced to get into trying to properly learn how to use an e-collar and should try to master other tools and approaches first. Too many people don't know how to correctly use an e-collar.


I do think he/she could be taught correctly by a professional to use an e-collar correctly, but I agree that they should work on the basics first!


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

To me, an 8.5-month-old is still a puppy. I don’t expect much at 100% at this age. If I give a command and he doesn’t listen, chances are it is one of the following: He doesn’t truly understand, the command has not been generalized enough, or the distraction is just too high/I am expecting too much. I would either help him with a hand signal (if I taught him via luring)/reward heavily when he complies or take a step back in training/work on generalization/layer distractions at a slower pace. 

Make training more fun for him, a puppy’s attention span can only be so long. I would focus more on building a fun-based relationship with your dog at this point, vs trying to get him to do everything at 100%.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For your self described level of inexperience, the training looked pretty good for pet training. I don't see a shred of dominance. Regarding if you are too easy on your dog, I can't really answer that because I don't know your dog's level of handler hardness (how well he tolerates corrections without breaking down) or what amount of training he has had. Plus, I am use to training a different kind of dog. One thing to think about is to always raise the expectations as your dog better understands what you are asking of him and keep your expectations consistent. If you let the dog get away with little things, you are teaching him you don't expect that much out of him. As an example of how I would train differently (with a different type of dog) I would use opposition reflex (pulling the lease in the opposite direction, for example to get the dog into a static heel and would be more forceful. I am not suggesting you do that with your dog, but you could be a bit more assertive and active. It is kind of like if you are in a higher state of drive, the dog will be too. I just watched a little of the vid on the prong collar and don't use it at all like in the video, but I understand that is pet training with softer dogs. For me the correct use of the prong is to have no pressure on the collar, a very quick, sharp pop, and then no pressure. The idea is more to get the dog's attention, not to inflict pain or get into a power struggle. I noticed on the last down, you waited about four seconds and then the dog downed and you praised him. That explains the four second pause rather than dominance. You have actually taught your dog to wait four seconds and then down. You can use food to lure your dog into a quicker down if he has good food drive. The other choice is compulsion, but I would rebuild the foundation first. I also am a very big believer in a release command, such as "free" which means the dog can release from a particular behavior and get a reinforcer. For example, with a puppy, I do a lot of fast sits and release after each correct sit and reinforce then repeat. Then do the same with downs, heel, etc. As the dog becomes more proficient, then start to chain the behaviors together.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

If that is you and the white dog in the video? I have a couple of simple suggestions. First of all correct your posture, no I am not crazy. You are leaning over the dog and have your head down. Square your shoulders and stop looking at the dog, it will make a difference in how the dog perceives your commands. Remember dogs read body language better then verbal cues. I also see the dog watching you intently and doing what he can to please you, trying to engage. Up the praise. Give him a reward, not food but praise. With young dogs I like to do 3-4 commands and then some really enthusiastic praise, maybe a minute of tug or a ball toss. 
I don't see any dominance and I would suspect that his actions are attempts to get your attention, not anything else.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He’s not dominant, in fact in the video seems very tuned into you. He’s making eye contact, he’s watching you, he mostly does what you ask him to do. If you say Down and he ignores you, either do it again and make him comply or change it to a quick Sit to end with him following a command. If you give a command, follow through. He seems very calm and biddable. I wish my 4 yr old was as calm as yours is when training. I get crisper responses. If I give a command, he jumps to follow it, but mine is also very squirmy and excited, so I do a lot of capping (calming) to keep him out of drive mode (high intensity). I’m guessing you switched things up for the video, but if you are working on a command, do that same command more than once, then move in to the next thing. I only switch it up like you did when I’m sure he knows the commands and will do them crisply and quickly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

San said:


> To me, an 8.5-month-old is still a puppy. I don’t expect much at 100% at this age. If I give a command and he doesn’t listen, chances are it is one of the following: He doesn’t truly understand, the command has not been generalized enough, or the distraction is just too high/I am expecting too much. I would either help him with a hand signal (if I taught him via luring)/reward heavily when he complies or take a step back in training/work on generalization/layer distractions at a slower pace.
> 
> Make training more fun for him, a puppy’s attention span can only be so long. I would focus more on building a fun-based relationship with your dog at this point, vs trying to get him to do everything at 100%.


I think I'm seeing it the way San is. He's not dominant or disobeying in any way. Because you're using hand signals along with the command, its confusing to him right now once you're giving them in a different position. He's dependent right now on seeing a clear and consistent signal from you. Chaining things together is adding to that and creating a little hesitancy. He's very compliant, I'd just spend more time doing one thing at a time until there's no hesitancy in him. Down in one short session, sit in another, and rather then call him in to heel position, I'd step into place while he's sitting attentive and build some focus for reward for right now. Later on its his responsibility to position himself correctly, but for right now I'd rather get reps rewarding correct without all the do overs to get it. Speed comes from motivation, teach him correct first, then build some drive and motivation to get speed. 

I also like to make sure everything has a clear beginning and a clear end. I like to tell them "Ready" to begin and then "Done" to go ahead and just be a dog. Focus and attention are finite, so that helps put a little value on listening to you. 

My guess would be the biting is also coming from confusion. Get something he likes to bite and work specifically and separate of anything else on outing it. Play a little calm tug, hold it as still as you can and tell him out. As soon as he lets go move it back and tell him to bite it again. Once they realize giving it to you (outing it) restarts everything, they'll generally be pretty reliable about it. Playing with rules and clear obedience in his mind will probably take care of the problems you're seeing. I really don't think any of this is as bad you may think, and I'm also pretty sure you're doing better then you think you are with him.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks everyone for commenting and reviewing my video. My take from all:

1) truly dominant dogs are rare and no one wants a dominant dog. Hard, confident & willful - OK.
2) occasional outbursts of mouthing/biting in response to commands are normal for an 8.5 month puppy and is NOT dominance
3) make training fun, add assertiveness and energy into myself, stand tall & straight. To be honest, I've made myself boring during training because he gets out-of-control mouthy/jumping when stimulated and then I get frustrated and he gets frustrated and then he doesn't remember anything other than he WANTS my arm in his mouth... *sigh*
4) go back to building a stronger foundation OB. The video is what we do typically throughout our walks but I should do more repetitions of the same 1 command.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just be yourself. You can't fake it and I don't see anything in your video that says you aren't naturally assertive enough for him. Teach him to play tug by your rules, it will create value for what you want him to bite and give you a way to make it clear not to put his teeth on you so if it does continue to be something he needs to be corrected for, you can make a clear distinction about whats appropriate and whats not. Ivan Balabanov's "The Game" is a great plan.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

*City walking*



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am going to go off topic for a moment. I would really stop all of that mileage where you are pounding the pavement in the city. On leash walking really isn't exercise for a dog and manmade surfaces are really hard on his joints as well as yours. Are there any natural trails that you can take him on? I would suggest far less time city walking and maybe spending more time at the park. If you go to the dog park, do NOT permit your dog to pull on another dog's neck. That can end up very badly for your dog if he were to do that to the wrong dog.
> 
> Are your training sessions 30 minutes straight or broken up throughout the day?


Yes, my training sessions are broken up into 5 sessions during the day. 

Thanks for letting me know that 7.5 miles per day is too much. Unfortunately, I live central downtown and the nearest 2 dog parks are almost 2 miles away (i.e. 3.75 miles return trip). I will reduce the distance and try to get him walking on grass wherever possible on our walks. 

How do you teach not to bite necks while playing? Other dog always comes running back for more play. Lately, as he's gotten bigger, I've been intervening and prying his teeth off the neck when he starts dragging a dog and pulling him away a little. The other dog always comes running back to continue playing. I'm vigilantly watching that nothing escalates to violence and I exit the park when there are dogs (mainly 3 unfixed males) that scare Tofu.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The worse thing going on with Pepito and Maya is he may get a tooth caught in their collar. He's at an age, I probably wouldn't let him play with too many different dogs, he's getting along pretty well with those two.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

My Ex used to say in his very French Canadian way - "that's it, that's all". Had nothing to do with dogs, but when I'm working with mine or playing with mine or feeding and they are being piggies, I still use "That's it, that's all" when we're done with anything. We say "Ready" before playing ball with Daisy.

I liked what I saw mostly with the dog, and don't see dominance there either. He's still a puppy. He's happy and engaged, I think he's just not quite sure with what you want is all. 

The White Shepherd may make him more tractable, but the Samoyed part...if he's 1/2 Samoyed that might make him a bit stubborn, too. 

OP- Why are you heeling him on the right side? You have your leash in the correct hand but you're working him on the right. It's funny how some things just are, like heeling on the left, and mounting a horse on the left. 

If I see a dog on the left side at heel, I assume usually correctly that the dog is doing/has done obedience work, owner knows what he/she's doing and has dog in control. 

If on the right, on a harness or out in front, my dog and I are getting out of the way--turning back or crossing the street. They probably haven't done OB work and don't care if they pass me safely or not. I want no contact with other dogs. 

Anything you've taught him on the right side, now has to be taught on the correct side.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

He plays very nicely with other dogs. I think I would teach him an "out" to get him to release his bite on the other dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for the detailed posts and analysis. Glad to know that a white shepherd isn't normally, genetically dominant. I feel that it's *very* likely that my dog is taking advantage of me. During a training session on the Halti, the moment when I handed the leash to the trainer, my dog whipped his head around and was completely aware of who was holding the reigns. Trainer noticed the change in focus. It's been 2 months that we've been using a Halti; previously, it was harness (because we have ignorant laws here that forbids collars on dogs >45 pounds, citing painful to dog). I'm willing to risk the fine and start on a prong collar.
> 
> I bought a Herm Sprenger 2.5mm today and hopefully will get a lesson today on fitting it. I like Tyler Muto's video on introducing prong pressure
> 
> ...


I personally wouldn't take dog training advice from Ed Frawley


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> MineAreWorkingline said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to go off topic for a moment. I would really stop all of that mileage where you are pounding the pavement in the city. On leash walking really isn't exercise for a dog and manmade surfaces are really hard on his joints as well as yours. Are there any natural trails that you can take him on? I would suggest far less time city walking and maybe spending more time at the park. If you go to the dog park, do NOT permit your dog to pull on another dog's neck. That can end up very badly for your dog if he were to do that to the wrong dog.
> ...


Seems like really nice play to me. Anything that slow and relaxed is unlikely to be a problem and I like how he keeps giving the black dog space to get back up. He seems like a really nice dog dog right now


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

But I agree about the collars. I have finally now had it happen. My lab got his jaw caught on my shepherd's collar. It was really really scary and bad and because I ran fast, have 2 good dogs, and was right there, I was able to prevent cstastrophe but it still almost started a dog fight and could have resulted in serious injury. Once you have seen this happen you'll never let a dog mouth play with a collar on again


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I love Tofu! I doubt very seriously he is a dominant dog. Get into some sports with him, you'll both have a blast.

He probably had a really poor start in the first home and learned bad puppy habits he has carried into a big body. He probably was desperate for attention and proper structure and acting out. 

I hope you get a good trainer because I think you have a really lovely dog there that you could do all sorts of fun stuff with. Don't label him like there is something wrong with him. Some pet trainers do nothing but suppress a dog and shut it down and never give it an outlet to be a tug. Watch the Ellis videos on tug and learn to play with him. It might make a big difference if he could use his mouth for reward and have a constructive thing to bite?

He probably just needs better manners, outlets, and maybe a correction that works to let him know you are not a chew toy. Good luck. Hope to hear more about Tofu.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

cvamoca said:


> OP- Why are you heeling him on the right side? You have your leash in the correct hand but you're working him on the right. It's funny how some things just are, like heeling on the left, and mounting a horse on the left.
> 
> Anything you've taught him on the right side, now has to be taught on the correct side.


I don't think that there's a "correct" side to heeling. I initially started his heel work on the right to place me between all the people on the street (society has been conditioned to walk on the righthand side of the sidewalk, up escalators/stairs, etc.). But he knows to heel on both my right and left sides (instead of saying "heel", my commands are "right" and "left"). I live downtown and prefer blocking him from going up to others or people from petting him without permission. Working the command on both sides means he's comfortable moving to my other side while walking when there's an oncoming dog/distraction.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> The worse thing going on with Pepito and Maya is he may get a tooth caught in their collar. He's at an age, I probably wouldn't let him play with too many different dogs, he's getting along pretty well with those two.


Thanks for pointing out the risk of a caught tooth.

What do you mean by "He's at an age..."? Is there a potential for character/personality change coming up in his developmental stage? Do playing with many different dogs have an impact? He has a rotation of about 10 dogs that he frequently plays with at the park depending on what time we go.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for pointing out the risk of a caught tooth.
> 
> What do you mean by "He's at an age..."? Is there a potential for character/personality change coming up in his developmental stage? Do playing with many different dogs have an impact? He has a rotation of about 10 dogs that he frequently plays with at the park depending on what time we go.


As they mature, they're tolerance to things will change. The give and take you see between them in the video is generally something you can maintain with familiar dogs, or at least other dogs they live with, but not with every different random dog. He probably wouldn't play like that with the muzzled dog that ran up briefly.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for pointing out the risk of a caught tooth.
> 
> What do you mean by "He's at an age..."? Is there a potential for character/personality change coming up in his developmental stage? Do playing with many different dogs have an impact? He has a rotation of about 10 dogs that he frequently plays with at the park depending on what time we go.


Is he neutered already? If he is, you have a better chance of him remaining more social. The other important factor is not letting him get bullied at dog parks (I am not a fan) and him not learning dysfunctional and rude play styles in an uncontrolled environment like that

But I have a 4 y/o white shepherd who is pretty darn nice socially. He is still willing to make new friends with strange dogs of both sexes. usually not other intact males though. Usually the sparks start to fly right away and that's bad news. I've got a new lab in here though, male neutered, that my shepherd went up to today and unless I read him way wrong I think they'd probably be pals straight out of the gate.

The neck biting, you can teach them to stop it on a command, I have with mine, because he sometimes goes overboard with the back of the neck full grab which I and most other dogs hate. I can just say "eh" from across a field and he'll turn loose of the other dog immediately.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

adora155 said:


> I don't think that there's a "correct" side to heeling. I initially started his heel work on the right to place me between all the people on the street (society has been conditioned to walk on the righthand side of the sidewalk, up escalators/stairs, etc.). But he knows to heel on both my right and left sides (instead of saying "heel", my commands are "right" and "left"). I live downtown and prefer blocking him from going up to others or people from petting him without permission. Working the command on both sides means he's comfortable moving to my other side while walking when there's an oncoming dog/distraction.


There is a normative side for heeling which is on the left. If you are using any training videos, They always assume a dog is walking on the left so they give instructions with that in mind. You can do whatever you want with your own dog, but the “correct” side is the left due to custom and tradition.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

adora155 said:


> I don't think that there's a "correct" side to heeling. I initially started his heel work on the right to place me between all the people on the street (society has been conditioned to walk on the righthand side of the sidewalk, up escalators/stairs, etc.). But he knows to heel on both my right and left sides (instead of saying "heel", my commands are "right" and "left"). I live downtown and prefer blocking him from going up to others or people from petting him without permission. Working the command on both sides means he's comfortable moving to my other side while walking when there's an oncoming dog/distraction.


That makes complete sense, as you explain it that way. 
My old fashioned boyfriend used to always make me walk on the inside/to his right. He said women walking at the curb historically were "for sale"! His mother taught him that...lol.
I thought it was just to keep our clothes from getting wet by traffic.  


I'm terribly one sided, though my right is my blind side, I still train my dogs for the left only. (Mobility dog) Because it does send a message to people who understand OB work and dog sports or anything competitive, dogs work off the left. I'll judge a trainer really hard who doesn't work the dog off the left. 

But if you aren't planning on doing anything but fun, not doing Obedience classes or going after an Obedience title, it doesn't matter what side you work off. 

He's a beautiful dog.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

cvamoca said:


> My Ex used to say in his very French Canadian way - "that's it, that's all". Had nothing to do with dogs, but when I'm working with mine or playing with mine or feeding and they are being piggies, I still use "That's it, that's all" when we're done with anything. We say "Ready" before playing ball with Daisy.
> 
> I liked what I saw mostly with the dog, and don't see dominance there either. He's still a puppy. He's happy and engaged, I think he's just not quite sure with what you want is all.
> 
> ...


I don't think there's a correct side. I think it's important to do what's most comfortable and what works for you. I personally taught my dog Codi to heel on left side as I just like it better. But my new dog is being taught to heel on my right side so they each have their own side and makes it easier if I need them to both be on a leash at the same time. Additionally Codi on regular walks once she explores as much as she wants will fall into a heel position on my left side. If the new puppy wants to do the same I'd rather them not competing for the same side. I think the left side is the correct side is an extremely limiting concept.


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## CaliGS (May 14, 2018)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for pointing out the risk of a caught tooth.
> 
> What do you mean by "He's at an age..."? Is there a potential for character/personality change coming up in his developmental stage? Do playing with many different dogs have an impact? He has a rotation of about 10 dogs that he frequently plays with at the park depending on what time we go.


I have a 22 month old female GSD, she is not spayed. Cali played with every dog at dogs parks up until after her first heat, she then only focused on me at dog parks and retrieving balls, but she did tolerate dogs coming up to her wanting to play, she'll either play for a few seconds and walk away or walk away as soon as they start smelling or pawing her. She recently ended her second heat and sadly i had to stop taking her to dog parks all together. when a dog runs up to her, she stands tall and the hair right behind her head flares up, and if the dog continues to smell or trying to play, she attacks, pretty viciously, first time she did that SCARED the crap out of me, luckily she responds to me pretty well so all i had to do was yell her name and she stopped attacking. As soon as it happened i took her out the park, i was extreamly confused with the behavior (being a first time owner, and her temperment was NEVER aggressive to the point where i go months without hearing one bark from her) so i tried again the next day, same result different dog. She has become very aloof to other dogs and is fixated on my commands and playing fetch. Through research i learned that this behavior is normal for the breed once they mature. I now take her on jogs and long walks, luckily i am stationed in Hawaii, so im able to take her on awesome hikes on weekends. All in all, just be on the lookout for different behavior when you goto the parks, as long as he continues to play like he is in those videos, you should be fine.


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## LCFS (Oct 17, 2019)

He has amazing training, and that looks like play to me. I have 2 dogs, so they both heel on whichever side I give the command for. I would rather be sandwiched than have both of them on same side. My new guy picked right up on it.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> There is a normative side for heeling which is on the left. If you are using any training videos, They always assume a dog is walking on the left so they give instructions with that in mind. You can do whatever you want with your own dog, but the “correct” side is the left due to custom and tradition.


I think that we're arguing over semantics here as I take umbrage to the word "correct". Just because the vast majority does something one way, it doesn't make all others deviants. Are countries driving on the lefthand side "wrong" because the majority of the world drive on the righthand side? Is writing with the lefthand "incorrect"?

I'm teaching my dog to be "ambidextrous" with specific commands for each side. If anything taught on the righthand side is "incorrect' then just chaulk it up to more tricks in my bag that will never be shown on any competition field (same like play dead, sit pretty, roll over). I am unfamiliar with competition obedience, but do I get points deducted if I use the command "left" instead of "heel"?


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

cvamoca said:


> That makes complete sense, as you explain it that way.
> ...
> But if you aren't planning on doing anything but fun, not doing Obedience classes or going after an Obedience title, it doesn't matter what side you work off.


Thanks for having an open mind about different point of views. I intend for him to execute any present/future commands on either side when given the specific command for whichever side. He'll be "ambidextrous". Even if I attend an obedience class, I can work him there on the leftside only (to not throw off the synchronization of everyone) and practice the rightside on my free time.

Thanks!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

adora155 said:


> I think that we're arguing over semantics here as I take umbrage to the word "correct". Just because the vast majority does something one way, it doesn't make all others deviants. Are countries driving on the lefthand side "wrong" because the majority of the world drive on the righthand side? Is writing with the lefthand "incorrect"?
> 
> I'm teaching my dog to be "ambidextrous" with specific commands for each side. If anything taught on the righthand side is "incorrect' then just chaulk it up to more tricks in my bag that will never be shown on any competition field (same like play dead, sit pretty, roll over). I am unfamiliar with competition obedience, but do I get points deducted if I use the command "left" instead of "heel"?


Well the vast majority of people are right handed. Dogs are traditionally taught to heel to the left for that reason. In terms of modern day usage if your walking toward oncoming traffic the dog would be on the side away from traffic. 
Since sidewalks make traffic a non issue and we no longer generally wander about with weapons at the ready it largely is now simply tradition.
Traditional horsemanship had riders mounting on the left so you weren't swinging your sword over your horse. Swords were heavy and horses were big. Because I have nerve damage my horses were trained to either side for safety. Because my dogs worked commonly in crowds I taught a "switch" command that would move the dog to my right side.
I believe in competition obedience the dog can heel to either side as long as it remains on that side for the duration of the competition.
As a side note when I walk my dogs and encounter people I tell the person " to my right please" accompanied by a hand gesture. Not a single person has ever questioned it.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

LCFS said:


> He has amazing training, and that looks like play to me. I have 2 dogs, so they both heel on whichever side I give the command for. I would rather be sandwiched than have both of them on same side. My new guy picked right up on it.



LCFS- Lyka, Crios, Floki and Seiran?
I don't understand why don't you just be who you are?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I stand corrected.
Under both AKC and CKC rules heel position is on the left.
I thought I read something about that being changed for accommodation reasons but apparently not.


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## Jenncavender (Oct 18, 2019)

Post removed by MODERATOR


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Adora 155,
You can heel your dog on any side you want or both sides. It is only an issue if you are doing competition obedience that requires heeling on the left or right. I wouldn't concern myself with the neck biting, as that is how dogs play. They don't have hands. He looks like he plays very well with other dogs. Personally, I don't let my dog play with other dogs, but that is a personal choice for different reasons than you letting your dog play with other dogs. I would be concerned that you are sure any dog he plays with is not dog aggressive and that is not always easy to determine. A single learning event can occur if your dog happens to play with a dog and the dog becomes aggressive toward your dog leading to your dog becoming dog aggressive. I don't think dog parks are good places for dogs. The other thing about playing with other dogs is that you become less important to your dog because you really can't compete with another dog. It probably won't become an issue for you and what your goals are, but be sure the other dogs are not dog aggressive. Also, if your dog plays with more than one dog at a time, there is a greater chance of aggression because there is more competition.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Both WCRL Rally and Cyber rally have elements of right side heeling to varying degrees. You could teach it either way or both if you want to. If you never compete it of course doesn't matter at all what side your dog heels on like Chip said.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

adora155 said:


> I think that we're arguing over semantics here as I take umbrage to the word "correct". Just because the vast majority does something one way, it doesn't make all others deviants. Are countries driving on the lefthand side "wrong" because the majority of the world drive on the righthand side? Is writing with the lefthand "incorrect"?
> 
> I'm teaching my dog to be "ambidextrous" with specific commands for each side. If anything taught on the righthand side is "incorrect' then just chaulk it up to more tricks in my bag that will never be shown on any competition field (same like play dead, sit pretty, roll over). I am unfamiliar with competition obedience, but do I get points deducted if I use the command "left" instead of "heel"?


It doesn’t really matter as long as your dog know what you are asking and can follow the command. Asking the dog to walk on either side could be confusing. Switching off while teaching could be confusing. I would approach Left and Right as different commands and teach them separately or you will end up with a dog that doesn’t know which one to do. Some of the hesitation I see in the video is due to your dog not being proofed on the commands you are giving.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> It doesn’t really matter as long as your dog know what you are asking and can follow the command. Asking the dog to walk on either side could be confusing. Switching off while teaching could be confusing. I would approach Left and Right as different commands and teach them separately or you will end up with a dog that doesn’t know which one to do. Some of the hesitation I see in the video is due to your dog not being proofed on the commands you are giving.


Thanks for the training tips. It's true that he's not proofed on the commands yet. Still a work in progress. How long SHOULD it take for a dog to be proofed on the basics (e.g. heel)? I understand that each dog is different and depends on my commitment too. Just wondering to give me a benchmark on how I'm doing and a goal to achieve.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

When I suggested you do a lot of repetitions of a single behavior, reinforce, release, repeat, is because it takes a ton of repetitions and reinforcement to get reliable obedience. I would focus more on sits, downs and come and progress to having the dog hold the sits and downs gradually longer while you gradually increase the distance you are away from the dog while he is in a sit or down. I don't use a stay command. I will just use a sit or down command and the dog has to hold the command until he gets the release command. Progress to a sit or down, move a distance away and recall your dog. Then increase the length of time for the sit or down and the distance of the recall. Make sure you are either in a safe/enclosed area so the dog can't bolt and get hit by a car, or keep a long, light line on him like clothes line (I don't know if people still know what that is because not many people hang their clothes on clothe lines any more.)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for the training tips. It's true that he's not proofed on the commands yet. Still a work in progress. How long SHOULD it take for a dog to be proofed on the basics (e.g. heel)? I understand that each dog is different and depends on my commitment too. Just wondering to give me a benchmark on how I'm doing and a goal to achieve.


My dog is 4 and I still periodically run him through obedience to make sure he’s sharp on it. Training is a daily event for us so he doesn’t get sloppy, but it’s very relaxed. I might ask him for a long down one just because I feel like it. I’ve taught mine off leash heeling and sometimes without the leash to remind him, he walks too fast or doesn’t stay in position. So I go back to the beginning for a few days until he “remembers.” Training isn’t something I do until they learn and then quit. its ongoing.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for letting me know that 7.5 miles per day is too much. Unfortunately, I live central downtown and the nearest 2 dog parks are almost 2 miles away (i.e. 3.75 miles return trip). I will reduce the distance and try to get him walking on grass wherever possible on our walks.


It's not so much the mileage. It's being on a leash in a big city plodding along at human pace. Most dogs, when left to their own devices, walk at a trot, which is similar to a human jog in speed. They'll trot along, stop to sniff, trot along some more, stop to look at a bird, trot some more, sniff, etc. Maybe in between there is some critter chasing. So human walking speed is reeeeaaaally sloooooow to them.

That's why walking on a leash isn't exercise.

If you can teach Tofu to behave off leash, it'd be well worth your while to hike 7.5 miles off leash through nature than walk 7.5 miles through a city on a leash. Nature fulfills dogs and people in ways cities just can't. Dogs come home relaxed, tired, and satisfied in ways I don't see when not engaging with nature.

Ex. I could walk Jack 5 miles around my town and it wouldn't hold a candle to 5 miles in the mountains chasing squirrels, swimming, sniffing whatever he feels like sniffing, and otherwise engaging with us in mini training sessions or wilderness agility courses.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

adora155 said:


> Thanks for the training tips. It's true that he's not proofed on the commands yet. Still a work in progress. How long SHOULD it take for a dog to be proofed on the basics (e.g. heel)? I understand that each dog is different and depends on my commitment too. Just wondering to give me a benchmark on how I'm doing and a goal to achieve.


I don’t think there is a set time frame for when a dog needs to know what. My Malinois didn’t know any verbal commands until she was well over the age of 1. She didn’t know how to do down-stay until she was over 2. But she did great when I competed with her when she was 3. 

I tried teaching her scent discrimination when she was 9 months old, she didn’t seem too interested. I didn’t push her, just let her be and waited until she was 2 to try again. She thoroughly enjoyed the exercise then. 

In hindsight, I am glad that I let her enjoyed her puppyhood and gave her the opportunity to mature at her own pace. Your dog sounds stable and biddable. Teach him what you need to have functional obedience for your daily walks/house manners. Beyond that, just enjoy the puppyhood with him. Don’t worry too much about when he needs to know what, just have fun with him. With the amount of work you are putting into him, I am sure he will mature into a very nice dog.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

*Sitting faster*

After 2 days of luring into faster sit and down, I'm glad to report that he does it faster at home now and with enthusiasm (maybe because I have food/toy). Other than a small snafu at the beginning from my error of asking a "stand", he looks much better sitting and downing. We'll continue the training outdoors for distractions today. 0


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Looks great!

I notice you are more upright and giving clear, crisp commands as well. Love his focus on you and can see his willingness to learn.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yep, I'm not sure he belongs in the Aggression>dominant dog category...he seems very eager to please and work. 
You seem to have a good relationship with him.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If you are luring, I would use food that the dog really likes and when the dog is really hungry. For a down, hold the food just at his nose and very quickly drop your hand with the food between his front leg and on the ground/floor. As soon as he is completely down, feed, release, praise and repeat quickly. For a sit, hold the food at his nose and quickly bring your hand with the food up and behind his head a bit. As soon as he sits, feed, release, praise and repeat quickly. If the downs and sits are not fast enough for you, only reinforce the ones that are fast. I would pick up your pace and the dog will do the same.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Very nice! You said Stand and he did, on his back paws. I know that wasn’t the goal. For Stand, I get the treat at eye level and pull my hand toward me. Give him enough room between you to take a step or two and he will stand to get the treat. Eventually you can eliminate the step toward you and the treats, and he will stand. Don’t reward him, even with voice for jumping up on you unless that is the goal. Stay silent unless he does something right. Even a word is as good or even better than a treat. Talking is a reward. So is attention, although it’s more subtle than a food treat.

I like the eye contact he has with you. He’s very alert and tuned into you.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Very nice! You said Stand and he did, on his back paws. ... Don’t reward him, even with voice for jumping up on you unless that is the goal. Stay silent unless he does something right. Even a word is as good or even better than a treat. Talking is a reward. So is attention, although it’s more subtle than a food treat.


HAHA! Yes, standing on his back paws... Maybe he can become a circus dog 

How long should i remain silent until I give the command a second time? Or remain stoic and no second command (which often times leads to more jumping then mouthing)?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I give them a chance to show they heard and understood. Then I redo the command with an additional incentive. So if I say Sit and don’t get a sit, I might repeat the word and take a step toward the dog. I always get a sit then. If my older one is on the move and ignores a command, she gets a louder one or I change the command and ask for something else. She is a much more independent dog and she sometimes makes decisions that go against what I need her to do. Rather than get into a battle of wills, I change my command to fit what she is willing to do. My younger dog is more like yours, good eye contact, very tuned into me, very eager to stay close and to please. My older one has an extremely high prey drive and herding instinct which takes precedence over ordinary behaviors, at least in her mind. She is also a rescue and came to me with learned behaviors.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Again, I would reinforce each behavior immediately and release for a while rather than having the dog perform a series of behaviors and reinforcing. You want to use continuous and immediate reinforcement. Also, you have no control over the dog when he is not on leash with a collar. Once you are confident the dog knows, say a down and you give the command and he doesn't quickly follow it, you pop the leash downward while giving the command again. So you are using compulsion and reinforcement. But you do this after you have done a ton of sits, downs, recalls, etc. with continuous, immediate reinforcement.


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