# Breeders and buyers.



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Do breeders (no particular breeder) have any responsibilities beyond the legal contract?

Do buyers have rights if the dog they purchase for a particular purpose grows up to physically be incapable of being used for that purpose.?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

You're going to get a wide range of opinions here. Some breeders will go above and beyond their legal contract in certain cases, others won't. 

It's extremely difficult for a breeder to guarantee a dog will grow up to fulfill the buyer's expectations; so much depends on how the pup is raised, fed, trained, etc. and there are a lot of things that the breeder has no control over.


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

A signed contract by buyer and seller should address these questions. Both parties should be in full agreement on these terms prior to exchange. Most breeders will have a policy in writing.
Most working breeders DO address working ability in their contracts and spell out the details.

As always communication is KEY. 

"Two Minds EQUALLY informed seldome disagree"


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You're going to get a wide range of opinions here. Some breeders will go above and beyond their legal contract in certain cases, others won't.
> 
> It's extremely difficult for a breeder to guarantee a dog will grow up to fulfill the buyer's expectations; so much depends on how the pup is raised, fed, trained, etc. and there are a lot of things that the breeder has no control over.


I agree that there are many ( probably 100's of variables here) but my intent was try not to complicate it too much.

I'll try one example.

If someone wishes to title a dog or show it and it grows up to not meet the breed standard did they just wind up with a companion dog. Nothing wrong with a companion dog but they wanted something more than that.

My dog is a companion dog. I looked primarily for temperament and nerve and I got that and much more. I didn't really care about the standard with regard to minor things.

If however I had paid a bunch for a dog to show and found out they didn't meet breed standard I would not be happy. That could just be another of life's lessons but that doesn't necessarily make it right.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Hunter Jack said:


> If however I had paid a bunch for a dog to show and found out they didn't meet breed standard I would not be happy. That could just be another of life's lessons but that doesn't necessarily make it right.


It's all about the contract--if you're buying a show prospect, the breeder may guarantee the pup against disqualifying faults. If the pup grows out with no DQ but simply doesn't win at dogshows, I don't think the breeder would be liable under said contract. I don't know if any breeder could guarantee a pup would grow up to WIN.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The business law answer is "it depends". Either party can bring the other to court.

If a buyer is picky about certain things, it is best to make that clear ahead of time.

Most people who are REALLY serious about a show/SchH/police/SAR/SD prospect do not buy a 7-10 week old puppy, and those that do understand the gamble and may be willing to go through a few dogs before finding that ONE dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You need to really delve into dog showing to understand your own question. It is not just a matter of showing up at the show and presenting a dog with no disqualifying faults. To show a dog successfully, you have to choose the proper venue for your dog, specialty ring, all-breed ring, sieger show ring. You need to choose the right judges, they have different preferences and will not put up some dogs, or will always put up the other dogs if they are there. And then you really have get honest assessments on the dog, people who are not going to tell you what you want to hear -- what a pretty puppy, or tell you a negative opinion of your dog because it is not one of their preference, or because they are in competition. You would have to trust people to help you know which judges and which rings to go to. 

There is no way in The Fiery Pit, for the breeder to ensure that you are able to do all of this, unless they are successful at showing and local enough to hold your hand through it. 

If a breeder guarantees championship points, read the whole contract very, very carefully. Because my guess is that they will stipulate that to collect on this, you MUST have entered an impossible number of shows, by a certain age, used a professional hander, shown in a specific venue, and the whole nine yards. And then three paragraphs down will be some disclaimer that says that if the dog is returned for replacement or monetary compensation, the dog must be returned. And that line would kill it for most people.

Yes a breeder should try to make things right, even beyond the scope of their contract, but every case is different and some of that depends on the buyer. Out of my first litter, two puppies died shortly under and shortly over a year of age, and neither was any fault of my own. The one that was hit by a car, while in the care of a relative (family had to travel for a family emergency), I replaced that puppy. The other was poisoned along with their border collie in the woods. I did not replace that puppy. The first owner kept me in the loop, went to training classes, worked with the dog, got him neutered, brought him to see me. And while I am not a fan of neutering and prong collars, I know that they did provide well for the puppy. I visited the other puppy while it was still alive. 

Anyhow, what rights do breeders have? If people promise to take the dog to classes and never do, if the people tether the dog where it can wrap itself in the tether and then fall off the bed and injure itself? What if the breeder's kid teases the puppy and teases and teases? 

What rights do breeders have?

I hear belly aching and moaning from buyers and their terrible experiences from this BYB or that BYB, but breeders generally just keep mum when buyers are creeps because they should have been able to address their crystal ball and KNOW that the buyer would let the puppy get poisoned, or drop the ball on training, or not control their child, or want to go camping all summer without the nuisance of a puppy. 

How about the show breeder whose reputation improves (and possibly her bitch and/or dog gets ROM points) when her dogs go on to win in the ring, and she sells a dog that she would have otherwise held back and shown, with the obligation/agreement that the dog be shown and named with her kennel name, and the owner chooses to do neither? 

There are two sides to every coin, but the one tossed for breeders has tails on both sides.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Crookedcreekranch said:


> Most working breeders DO address working ability in their contracts and spell out the details.


Not true. 
If you're talking about older green or adult dogs, then yes often some sort of temperament/working ability warranty is included. But then in this case one is looking at an older dog, and thus a more finished product. And most certainly the price tag reflects that.

This is certainly not standard for working line breeders, or any breeder, to try to warranty those things. And it would be absurd to even consider it. I'm sure there are some who do, but not many. And in those few cases where such a warranty is offered I would expect it's either a breeder who doesn't understand working ability and temperament, or the effort required of the owner to make those things come to pass, enough to realize how absurd it is. Or it's just a simple marketing gimmick, where more often or not the breeder either has no intention of honoring it (probably knowing how easily this responsibility could be turned back and the owner blamed, even IF there was some deficiency in the dog), or like many basic health warranties has some ridiculous restrictions and stipulations that the chance of anyone ever wanting to enact the warranty are slim to none.

Puppies are always a risk. Absolutely NOTHING can be guaranteed. Not even health or structure. They can be warranted, yes, but not guaranteed. Genetics just don't work that way.

And things like temperament and working ability are the product of way too many things other than just base genetics. Things the breeder has no control over once that puppy leaves their care. If the buyer doesn't raise and train the puppy properly, it's not going to excel no matter how sound it's genetics are.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm finding myself siding more and more with breeders on "contract" issues as time goes on. We've known for thousands of years what a dog is. They are not like a car with replaceable parts.
With the internet, purchasers have access to nearly the same information about the lineage as breeders do, how is the breeder supposed to know something the buyer didn't?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Learning a lot from everyone that has posted.

I do know that buying a thoroughbred race horse doesn't mean it's fast.
You could purchase a quarter horse that's afraid of cows.

My question really was about a defect that would keep a show dog from even making it to the show ring. Not about it's ability to do well , which no one could guarantee.

Or a dog for schutzhund with a physical defect that will not allow him to ever compete or train.

Thanks for the responses.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm finding myself siding more and more with breeders on "contract" issues as time goes on. We've known for thousands of years what a dog is. They are not like a car with replaceable parts.
> With the internet, purchasers have access to nearly the same information about the lineage as breeders do, how is the breeder supposed to know something the buyer didn't?


One would hope they would know more than the average buyer. I don't know much about genetics other than it is very complicated and a person could spend years learning. Same answer with regard to lineage.

Yes dogs are not like cars but you couldn't attain the knowledge or experience of a good mechanic by looking it up on the internet.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A breeder evaluates the pup at the time and says show-quality. At that moment in time, the puppy is, to the best of her ability devoid of any major fault that would prevent it from showing, that is UNLIKELY to reverse itself prior to the time when it can be shown. For example, ears down -- not ok in the ring, perfectly acceptable in an eight week old puppy.

The buyer checks over the pup and evaluates its angulation and teeth and ear carriage and feet and bone and coloring, and agrees that the pup is a nice prospect. 

From that point on, it is a gamble. The pup can change in structure and other features to where it would not be worth the money to enter the dog in the ring. I do not think that the bite was a disqualifying fault, but if it did not straighten up, it would never win over a dog with proper dentition unless that dog had a worse fault, or was otherwise a much worse dog. So one would never enter the dog. It costs money to enter a dog and it is not fair to anyone to enter a dog that has no chance of winning.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

From the AKC site:

*Disqualifications*
_Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black. 
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs. 
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge. 
_


The dog in the other post did not have an undershot jaw, I believe that is when the lower teeth come up in front of the upper teeth, like a bull dog. That is much worst than overshot. 

So, except for a dog that attempts to bite the judge, the breeder ought to be able to determine disqualifying faults, prior to shipping them out. But most of our dogs would not be disqualified if we tried to show them, that does not mean they would do well. If a dog has good structure, good coat, good coloring, and no disqualifying faults, the breeder might consider it a show prospect.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hunter Jack said:


> My question really was about a defect that would keep a show dog from even making it to the show ring. Not about it's ability to do well , which no one could guarantee.
> 
> Or a dog for schutzhund with a physical defect that will not allow him to ever compete or train.


Many of these conditions are not known or obvious until the dog is older. I had an SV judge tell me that his own dog had an overbite and outgrew it from 12-16 months. I'd never heard of that before, usually the bite is what it is by 8 months or so. But, it *can* change, testicles can drop, HD or ED can show up on x-rays, ears might not go up.....That's the problem with the question, and that is why I said if someone is REALLY serious about it and refuses to give the dog back, don't get an 8 week old puppy.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

This is one of those topics that have many different opinions....
Being a buyer AND a breeder...I look at things from both perspectives (at least I try hard to.)
These are some of the things I expect reasonable for both parties involved.

1) *as The Breeder:* I am expected to produce and represent the best dogs that I can offer from my particular lineages. I am expected to provide for and nurture my dogs to the best of my ability. I am expected to make sure that all dogs/puppies are vet checked and healthy when they are taken home by their new families. I am expected to ensure the best possible "match" for both buyer & puppy/dog. I am expected to assist buyers with any questions or concerns that they may have regarding the dog/puppy I have placed into their homes. I am expected to acknowledge that "genetic issues" do arise in even the best breeding's, and I should work with the buyer to remedy the situation...

*Since I do not offer refunds in my contract, I do not expect a buyer to request one at a later date.*

2) *as The Buyer: *I expect my breeder to sell me a puppy that has been vet checked and healthy on the day I purchase him/her. I expect my breeder to have chosen the best "possible" match for me, knowing and seriously considering my wants and wishes for the future of my puppy/dog. I expect my breeder to sell me a dog/puppy with no disqualify faults or genetic defects (unless disclosed to me prior to sell). I expect my breeder to answer my questions regarding the further development of my puppy/dog (if I may have any). 
Since breeders cannot actually guarantee the life my dog will have, I do not expect to blame them for any problems that my puppy/dog may face in development.
I expect my breeder to stand by any provisions that their contract may actually have. 
*I have never expected a refund on any dog/puppy that I have purchased.*

**So there you have it.....my personal opinion on buyers and breeders.*
*One could easily add or minus things from it...but I'm a pretty basic person.*
*Treat as one wishes to be treated....*


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Liesje and Robin.

I learn a lot more when these threads don't venture off into La La Land and become personal.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> *Treat as one wishes to be treated....*


Excellent post, well stated.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Hunter Jack said:


> One would hope they would know more than the average buyer. I don't know much about genetics other than it is very complicated and a person could spend years learning. Same answer with regard to lineage.
> 
> Yes dogs are not like cars but you couldn't attain the knowledge or experience of a good mechanic by looking it up on the internet.


True, but even with their vast knowledge, how many generations of the dog's lineage and genetics does the breeder have access to? How did they derive that information? What tests were done? 
Growing up in a family of doctors, I've realized that the medical profession doesn't have as many answers as we think they do. My uncle is one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the world (not that there are that many anyway) and occasionally I run some hip dysplasia theories by him... his answers are pretty surprising.
I think it would be very rare to find a person to be as well versed in genetic issues as we'd expect them to be, putting "reputable breeders" on such a high pedestal, and then to have that person breeding German Shepherds while they're at it. I'm sure there are some who exist but expecting each and every breeder to meet this hope is a bit much... it would be nice though.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Excellent post, Robin! :thumbup: As a buyer, the only thing I read into a guarantee is that the breeder supports what they produce. Especially with this breed, I don't believe there can be many preconceived expectations outside of health and temperament when purchasing an 8 wk old puppy. It's a long road from puppy to adulthood and mistakes can always be made. I, for one, could never care and love for an animal, and then send it back to the breeder because it didn't meet my expectations. After a period of time, they become part of your family and life. But of course I understand this is different for active breeders and competitors in the working and show world. I also would not expect monetary compensation. As a companion buyer, the one thing I WOULD expect is breeder support and genuine concern and interest in what they have produced. I believe that nothing is guaranteed in even the best of breedings, but a when breeder stands behind what they've produced and offers their support and advice through good times and bad, it's worth much more than a refund...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> True, but even with their vast knowledge, how many generations of the dog's lineage and genetics does the breeder have access to? How did they derive that information? What tests were done?
> Growing up in a family of doctors, I've realized that the medical profession doesn't have as many answers as we think they do. My uncle is one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the world (not that there are that many anyway) and occasionally I run some hip dysplasia theories by him... his answers are pretty surprising.
> I think it would be very rare to find a person to be as well versed in genetic issues as we'd expect them to be, putting "reputable breeders" on such a high pedestal, and then to have that person breeding German Shepherds while they're at it. I'm sure there are some who exist but expecting each and every breeder to meet this hope is a bit much... it would be nice though.


Agree. 

Please don't get me started on doctors.

I liked your post Tihannah


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Freestep said:


> It's all about the contract--if you're buying a show prospect, the breeder may guarantee the pup against disqualifying faults. If the pup grows out with no DQ but simply doesn't win at dogshows, I don't think the breeder would be liable under said contract. I don't know if any breeder could guarantee a pup would grow up to WIN.


I have had some breeders actually do just that - a CH but only with older pups (8-9 mo and up) not little babies. Now what you do with a pup that didn't win was always a question.

Plus there were many conditions - including pro handler (their choice or sometimes themselves!), picking which (and how many shows) which judges, pro grooming and exercise, etc. etc.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> This is one of those topics that have many different opinions....
> Being a buyer AND a breeder...I look at things from both perspectives (at least I try hard to.)
> These are some of the things I expect reasonable for both parties involved.
> 
> ...


Great BALANCED response!


There are obviously good people and bad people who look for an edge on each side!


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## MichelleYoo (May 10, 2011)

I've always guaranteed against "disqualifying faults" but beyond that I think it's unrealistic to have expectations that the pup will win or do very well. Pups change as they grow, that's why you pay less for an 8 wk old pup than for a 12 mth old started pup. 

Beyond that, I think my contract really favors the buyer but is still fair to me. I've always tried to work with buyers beyond what my contract says and I think that as long as both sides are fair & reasonable then everyone can be happy. I think the most important thing is that buyers get to know and trust the breeder that they're buying from.


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