# Considering Breeding



## BrutalSS (May 21, 2016)

Since there really is no good resources for the Czechoslovakian Vlcak's forum wise, and I'm also posing the same question to the American Club, since there are no reputable breeders here in the US. 

This is something I wouldn't get into for a few years, but I wanted to do my research before hand, so I know what I'm considering getting myself into. I'm not after money or keeping a ton of puppies, thats not my thing. But I think theres potential to get really good dogs here in the US for this breed. 

Although I am going to get him into Schutzund/IPO first, I'm not much of one for pretty dogs (although I will make sure he is a good representation of the breed standard first), I'd rather have one that can has the right mind for work, be it agility, IPO, etc. If he is not doing well with IPO or agility, I'm not going to breed him, theres no point.

His father is a Junior Champion and his Mother is a Champion, all grandparents are champions and I have not looked back further, but here is his pedigree: Bingo Ze´ev Bubbledog

I know for the most part, American dogs tend to be garbage for anything other than a lawn ornament, I don't want to breed terrified dogs that look pretty, nor do I want to breed overly aggressive dogs, I want to breed dogs that are excellent examples of the breed standard, are confident and can excel at Schutzund/IPO work, as well as make good pets, a well rounded animal if you will. I know these dogs are naturally skittish, theres no way to breed that out of them. Hips/Elbows are all clear for him, he has been tested, I have the paperwork. His pedigree is clean as well.

Opinions and advice are always welcome.


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## ZABDI SHAMAR (May 8, 2016)

WOW American Dogs Trash...Ornaments ? Seems harsh. I would think that's a big generalization. 

I'm not an expert but your dog is beautiful. I hope you get to realize your dream it seems exciting and like it would be very gratifying and your intentions are sincerely for the breed. I hope you get the information you need for your research?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

show me that any of the experimental breedings of GSD and wolf worked out for working.
Czech wolf dog did not work out , Saarloos wolfdog failed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You mean American bred wolf crosses?


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## BrutalSS (May 21, 2016)

Zadbi, I should clarified better, from what I have heard discussing things with various breeders, a lot of working dogs that have all US bloodlines and no overseas bloodlines tend to have undesireable working characteristics, such as excessive fear, etc.

In Europe, there are kennels that do IPO successfully with their CSVs and they even have titles. I am not a conosseur by any means, but I can see the potential in my dog, he just needs training and direction.

No Steve, I am talking about Czechoslavakian Vlcak's, originated as a GSD/Carpathian Wolf Cross in the mid 50s. There were certain characteristics they were trying to get from both breeds to make a better more well rounded animal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I also was referencing European breeding programmes which experimented with wolf crosses.


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## ZABDI SHAMAR (May 8, 2016)

BrutalSS said:


> Zadbi, I should clarified better, from what I have heard discussing things with various breeders, a lot of working dogs that have all US bloodlines and no overseas bloodlines tend to have undesireable working characteristics, such as excessive fear, etc.
> 
> In Europe, there are kennels that do IPO successfully with their CSVs and they even have titles. I am not a conosseur by any means, but I can see the potential in my dog, he just needs training and direction.
> 
> No Steve, I am talking about Czechoslavakian Vlcak's, originated as a GSD/Carpathian Wolf Cross in the mid 50s. There were certain characteristics they were trying to get from both breeds to make a better more well rounded animal.


Just saw your pictures of your pup. He is stunning. Love his eyes. 

Just read about the history of the breed on 

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/

Interesting. Seems like breeding for this cross is challenging based on this US breeder's site declaration 

http://galomyoak.com/

It seems like there is a void of quality breeders in the US since the CSVCA does not reccomend any US breeder's currently. Seems ground breaking I wish you luck. Beautiful Dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if I understand correctly you have had your dog for about 6 months -- and he is a novel breed , which the vast majority have no experience with --- 

You haven't known the breed , nor the dog , long enough to test and evaluate the usefulness of this breed for work purposes.

I did know a young Czech man who came to Canada trying to find employment in "police training". His experience in Czechoslavkia was as a canine handler / manager with Pohranicni Straze. 
He showed me pictures of the kennelled area immediately behind his state provided cottage. In those pens were the Czech wolf-dogs that Pohranicni Straze was experimenting with as working animals.

They could not come close to the GSD that the same programme was breeding. Remember that this was a sophisticated breeding programme deliberately trying to produce good working wolf-dogs --- and could not do it.

They had issues . Not particularly biddable -- more flight than assertive fight.

Saarloos , the private Dutch effort came up with the same results -- flighty dogs.

How are you working this pup --- good looking ! nice natural conformation . 

His sire and dam are Champions of what?

We also had a South American forum member who took on a Vlcak .as an experiment and would write the occasional post . Seemed to have lots of problems as far as training for a reliable response .


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm not familiar with vlaks, but if this is true:



> I know these dogs are naturally skittish, theres no way to breed that out of them.


Then I have to ask why do you want to use IPO to test your breeding stock? Sounds a bit like fitting a square peg in a round hole ya know. 



> In Europe, there are kennels that do IPO successfully with their CSVs and they even have titles.


IPO titles are not in their self a testament to a dog's true working ability. If you tweak the variables enough - showing on their home field, with a helper they've worked with before, and a forgiving judge - even a poor dog can get a title. 

Have you actually watched vlcaks working in ipo? 

I think it is great you want to work with a rare breed. That can be very rewarding. Im just not sure your chosen venue is the best way to tap into the breed's true potential. One thing you might wanted consider, is going to be the placement of your pups. Who is it that is going to want to bring a wolfy looking dog into their home and for what purpose? 

I doubt that sport and working dog people are going to be overly interested in them for those purposes, especially as you said they have a skittishness that can't be bred out. Why would they take the chance on that when there are so many good gsds and mals out there?

It seems to me the type of people who would be interested in your pups are people who are looking for companion dogs and those into conformation showing. 

Obedience and agility would probably be a better fit to test working ability, and would be attractive to the future puppy owners. Then conformation titles to make sure they are adhering to the standard.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Quote:
I know these dogs are naturally skittish, theres no way to breed that out of them."

That is what the problem was . 
why breed ? big fish in a little pond?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

So actually these wolf dogs are only bred for the looks, something the OP is against.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If you are looking for help and direction, here is my advice - join a club, train our dog, and see how he stacks up against basic working ability and requirement. THEN decide if you want to continue in the direction you want to go.


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## BrutalSS (May 21, 2016)

Ok, so I have gotten a lot of replies and I am going to try to get through them all. Regarding the skiddish thing, he tends to take more to warm up to new people than most dogs. Which is inline with the acceptable temperment of the breed. You have to go into owning that type of dog knowing they are different than most dogs, and that came right from the breeder, who does breed good lines.

There are no Vlcak owners in my state engaging in IPO. I would like to see how he does in a variety of situations with a variety of people. He has a very strong drive and at minimum, it would be good for him mentally, if nothing else. If it proves he is a strong dog, great, if not, I still love him the same.

Agility would work well for him, I can see that instinct in him for sure, and he is a fast little bugger LOL.

I agree completly CastleMaid, this is not something I am going to do tomorrow. I am getting feedback and mapping out a plan. I was in the Military, so I am a big fan of plans and having it laid out. 

I do not want to do something foolish.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

a skittish dog doesn't have the basic temperament to even begin IPO training. That is one of the first things checked. The pressure of the helper could easily turn a skittish dog into a fear-biter, which would carry over into the dog's day-to-day life


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

BrutalSS said:


> I do not want to do something foolish.


Glad to hear this!

Besides breeding these dogs being questionable (comments from seasoned breeders) the following are some points to consider.

This was written for GSD's. Some of these points may not apply, but it gives you the general idea of what breeding responsibly involves. 
This is the whole article:


German shepherd Breeders, German shepherd Breeder

THE DECISION TO BREED OR NOT TO BREED *

THE FACTS:* It is extremely important to learn the facts and possible consequences in advance if you are contemplating breeding your dog. In today’s overcrowded world, we-the wardens of our domestic pets – must make responsible decisions for them and for ourselves. Please review the following points carefully. 

*QUALITY:* SV registration is Not an indication of quality. Most dogs, even purebred, should not be bred. Many dogs, though wonderful pets, have defects of structure, personality or health that should not be perpetuated. Breeding animals should be proven free of these defects BEFORE starting on a reproductive career. German Shepherd Breeding should only be done with the goal of IMPROVEMENT – an honest attempt to create puppies better than the sound, wonderful parents they come from. ignorance is NO excuse! Once you have created a life, you can’t take it back - even if it’s blind, crippled or a canine psychopath! 

*COST:* German Shepherd Dog breeding is NOT a money making proposition, if done correctly. Health care and shots, diagnosis of problems and advance genetic testing to determine quality and breedability, extra food, proper facilities, stud fees, advertising, etc. are all costly and must be paid BEFORE you sell any pups. An unexpected Caesarean or emergency intensive care for a sick pup, or even a litter of sick pups as often happens with parvo, will make break – even litter become a BIG liability. 

*SALES:* First-time German Shepherd breeders have no reputation and no referrals to help them find buyers. Previous promises of “I want a dog just like yours” evaporate. Consider the time and expense of caring for pups that may not sell until 4 month, 8 months, or longer…what WOULD you do? Send them to the pound? Dump them in the country? Sell them cheap to a dog broker who may resell them to research labs or other unsavory buyers? Veteran German Shepherd breeders with a good reputation often don’t even think about breeding unless they have people waiting for the puppies, with cash deposits in advance for an average-sized litter. 

*JOY OF BIRTH:* If you’re doing it for the children’s education, remember the whelpling may be at 3 AM, or at the vet’s on the surgery table. Even if the kids are present, they may get the chance to see the birth of a monster or a mummy, or watch the dog they love scream and bite you as you attempt to deliver a pup that is half out and too large some bitches are not natural mothers, and either ignore or savage their whelps. Bitches can have severe delivery problems, or even die in whelp. German Shepherd Pups can be born dead, or with gross deformities that require euthanasia. Of course there can be joy, but if you can’t deal with the possibility of tragedy, don’t breed. 

*TIME:* Veteran German Shepherd breeders of quality dogs state they spend well over two hours a day, every day, for months, to raise an average litter. The bitch CANNOT be left alone while whelping, and only for short periods for the first few day after. Be prepared for days off work and sleepless nights. Even after delivery, mom needs care and feeding, pups need daily checking, weighing, socialization, and later grooming and training, and the whelping box needs lots and lots of cleaning. More hours are spent with paperwork, pedigrees and interviewing buyers. If you have any abnormal conditions such as sick puppies or a bitch who can’t or won’t care for her babies, count on double the time. If you can’t provide the time, you will either have dead pups or poor ones that are bad tempered, antisocial, antisocial, dirty and/or sickly – hardly a buyer’s delight. 

*HUMANE RESPONSIBILITIES:*It’s midnight…do you know where your German Shepherd puppies are? There are more than FIVE MILLION unwanted dogs put to death in pounds in this country EACH year, with million more dying homeless and unwanted of starvation, disease, from automobiles, abuse, etc. A quarter or more of the victims of this unspeakably tragic situation are purebred dogs “with papers. “ The German Shepherd breeder who creates a life is responsible for the life. Will you carefully screen potential buyers? OR will you say “yes” and not think about that little German Shepherd puppy you held and loved now having a litter every time she comes in heat, which fills the pounds with MORE statistics – YOUR grandpups? Would you be prepared to take back a grown puppy if the owners could no longer care for it?Or can you live with the thought that the baby YOU caused to be brought into this world will be destroyed at the pound? 


Best of luck with your pup!
Moms


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## BrutalSS (May 21, 2016)

Thank you for the reply Momto2GDS, I really appreciate it.


I definitely agree with everything you said, that's why I'm going at this in a slow deliberate fashion to get information from more experienced people than myself. I'm here for knowledge and will take any credible advice given/knowledge shared seriously.


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