# Genetic Obedience



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok Lots of threads with snippits of this. I 'hear' it is typically brought in with the OLD herding lines...

How, when evaluating a young prospect can you assess whether this characteristic is present? At 6 months, at 12 months? -- or is it strictly a matter of knowing the genetics?

What lines carry it......where do you find it? (I threw in the showline dogs because it is a specific attribute and in the absence of other factors)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My showline comment does not make sense anymore - I had put in a list with the different "types" of GSDs such as West German Working, Czech, DDR, German SHow, American, Belgian, etc. ..........


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My old girl who has Uwe and herding lines relatively close, Samba, was obviously obedient when I got her around 6 months. Never had to use a leash on her for any training and has not failed a recall, even when giving chase, in 10 years. I would say she is quite high in pack drive. I don't know how evident it was before the 6 month age.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I guess you would have to evaluate the relationship between an older puppy and its owner. I would think that an older puppy would / should be neutral to me as a visitor.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm jumping up and down with my hand up, teacher , pick me , pick me.

100% true account .

The other day I took out a female born Nov 3 2010 sire Griswald van Xazziam - German shepherd dog

dam Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German shepherd dog

to Mike Clay's some half hour drive away. First time in van. 
First time on lead . Came out of van. Initially pulled back a bit on the restriction of collar and lead, I set my course, calm and steady , respectful of the pups newness , but nontheless I set the direction , and so we go. Within 20 paces she is prancing beside me , perfect heel position , head turned giving me eye contact. I stop to give her a calm shoulder to rear stroke on her left side and we continue. Within another 20 or so paces I am feeling her being correct so I drop the leash and she still continues to walk beside me with perfect animated heel position. Mike is to my right , dog to my left, Mikes beautiful young daughter to my left, the dogs right side. We go to a mini ramp . Dog shows some resistance. I go to up the ramp, and pause on the platform. Manipulate leash with gentle pressure. Dog puts on paw on contraption. Good. I get off and repeat going up. Dog is able to put both front feet on but still sceptical. I repeat. Within 4 to 5 times the dog is speedy going up and down , pausing on top , can't wait to reload and do again.
We head over to an A frame, no difficulty at all. Instant up and down.
The first ramp contraption was a new experience and I demonstrated to her trust in handler -- . Second A frame she flew up and descended. No checking to see if she should jump off sideways.

Then I did a master track . First time on this property. First time off my property.

Mike held her . His daughter and I go wandering off trying to find a relatively dry spot to hide in . We find one about 75 feet away just the other side of a bit of a ridge . So we are in a bowl.
Some 5 minutes later I hear Mike approaching , can just barely see the dog. She is off leash but wearing leash and collar. She had picked up the leash and is carrying it in her mouth so she does not get tangled in it (plus these guys like to carry). I see that she is doing a broad circle sweep , coming near and then going away from always ending at a wall of a big clump of mature cedar , and to the east another clump of bush. This is where the wind carrying our scent , which is blowing towards her , is pooling and the strongest. 
Mike , excellent handling , knowing where we are by sight at this point, does not guide her towards us but just takes a few steps down the side of the hill , so still some 20 - 25 feet away. Dog goes down the embankment, learns something about scent , picks up the scent and makes a beeline to where we are .
Mike's daughter is to my left which is the near side of the dogs approach. Dog gives her a push with the muzzle so acknowledging her presence but then comes and drapes herself across my lap where she gets ample praise. 

We do one more . Dog respond quick to new situation . Catching on.

We start walking back to house. The leash came off the buckle and so we back track. The dog had been off leash for some time and yet here she was perfect heel position , left and shoulder to leg and eye contact. 

We walk back to A frame which she does with enthusiasm and then she had us all laughing because she left us , ran the 10 steps ahead and went up and down the ramp several times all by herself - getting amusement and praise.

Reconnect start walking back to house , have to cross a creek, she walks through without hesitation. 

In the distance close to the house some 200 feet away are her two brothers in side by side kennels . There is some privacy covering so they can't see each other , but can hear . Mike and I are talking and she runs out to investigate . Goes to visit , is excited, I yell here , here, here, trying to at that distance have my voice carry and be heard over the excited pups in the kennel. She looks around and comes flying , running as fast as she can perfect straight line to me . Praise, walk back to house in heel position. She did not even look sideways at Mike's personal dogs. The only distraction was her two littermates.

I said to Mike --- you have seen Genetic Obedience today --

no gimicks. no food in hand, no ball , recall under distraction at a distance, never ever a correction 

IT IS A THING OF BEAUTY

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nancy , Samba comes from me -- and that is Genetic Obedience. 
I have done videos for canine vision canada some 30 years ago of 7 - 8 week old pups heeling, stopping , paying attention, briefly staying , and always recalls.

I took Laurels pup Journey for a little walk when Laurel was so nice to visit me at my Saturday market location. Same thing. Very light on lead, walk through busy pedestrian crowd and traffic going by in drive way, very nice - "cruise control" response.

These are dogs with a lot of drive by the way . 

I have always said I want the dog to provide 70% of the work and the handler contributes 30

I see far too many dogs where the dog has no intrinsic interest and the handler is working real hard to get the behaviour . Handler input 80 - 90 , dogs contribution 10.

Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It does not have to do with the relationship of the owner -- it has to do with the genetics.

The example I gave of the female at Mikes is a first time for all things I spoke of. She is a member of 4 pups remaining , one which I will be keeping . They are basically kennel and crate dogs at the moment and I do my best to give them individual me time. One of the reasons so many of my emails to the list are at 2 and 3 am , because I have them in the barn. 

You can breed for loyalty. That puppy knew exactly who she came with. She was friendly with Mike and daughter , but never strayed to walk away with them. She would not be bribed.

There are a lot of things missing in a lot of breedings. One of the reasons I loved the comment by GSD07 in another thread where she said "that the working drive is more complex then just the ability to chase the ball endlessly" . Complex , sophisticated, rich , and interesting . 

Why do you think I get short when people merely ask for colour. 

These attributes are beneficial for work or even a most wonderful pet experience, a dog with some dimensions and potentials and easy to work becasue the dog is making itself available . Not dogs to neglect and not dogs to hard handle , not necessary and insulting to the dog.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Carmen - I know that *is* a hallmark of your dogs (from you and people I have spoken with) and very few people seem to breed for this - alas I know at 1-2 litters a year you cannot supply all the good working dogs we will need......So given that, are there good ways to assess. If someone has a prospect how do you assess for that?

Most "end users" like me are dumbfounded by the genetics and do have to trust but can you "see" it in a prospect?

I see that my West German WL female is ONLY about the toy or food and is not really bonded to me even though I tried to do all the "right" things with her as a puppy. I wonder was it my fault with early training? Was it her genetics? She is about rewards or corrections only. Very independant.

My Czech/DDR male came to me at 2 years and was completely bonded to me in a matter of days. and has never known a pinch collar. Naturally heels, naturally wants to please (but still works in partnership from good distances and has the right drives for work, so it is NOT about the dog being low in drive)

So, not about individual dogs but, now that I have seen the difference with my own two eyes.......how do you know? Is it something you can evaluate for? Most tests I have seen only asses social attraction but not really this characteristic. How can one assess it with a dog they do not know? The pup is bonded to another and not me, the evauator..........

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was posting during Carmen's second reply more about the genetics, not the handler ......I did think this was a good discussion topic in and of itself for more than just me


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I think one of the strongest indicators of genetic obedience is retrieving instinct. You can test for this while the pup is still in the litter. I also like to see a pup that has a strong interest in following and being with the handler.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It doesn't have to do with the handler, that is for sure. I think the pup may show you a high leve of wanting to interact even with the distraction of other pups and activities. They may offer you attention with no effort on your part. There is a willingness to follow and to check in a bit when exploring, but not undue attachment. I can say with my girl she just had an intense interest in me from the start... very flattering.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh I should clarify

I DO think people breed for this and you can find them but the pool drops markedly when looking for people who supply young adults when sometimes LE selection criteria dont consider the importance of this characteristic (though it is probably better because many handlers are probably like me (not God's gift to the canine handling world) and can benefit from having an easy dog to work with!)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Nancy I had to attend to other stuff so had to drop the replies to this topic which interest me no end.

It has nothing to do with ball or retrieval. 
That test was devised for quickly finding a dog to match a reward system.

Yes all my dogs have strong ball play and very high hunt drive (which does not require ball play any more than a coyote hunting , sussing out a rabbit needs ball play). 
Do you select your med students based on the fact that they have a high motivation to be top dollar earners or to belong to toney golf clubs , or do you select them because they have compassion and empathy and a good grasp on the necessary maths ++ and sciences . 

It has nothing to do with hanging around you either , because that could be the fearful animal afraid to venture away from, the clingy , dependent one.

Do you play ball to pick your top herding dog . NO.

This could easily become another 3 hour phone conversation Nancy.

Key word Genetics.

It must be bred for . It traditionally does come from the herding lines and I am not talking about trialing dogs . This is the farm dog smarts.

What you are feeling is the dog that forms a partnership in that it tries to understand the job at hand and how to be a co operative participant in that effort. He makes himself available . Strong , calm , steady nerve base is a foundation . I would be shocked to have a hyper active , hectic dog in this category -- too many conflicts and self interest (distractions). The dog has a sense of loyalty, and responsibility. 

Ellen wrote of this often .

Genetic obedience . Let me see a pedigree and I can take a stab at it.

Here are some of mine which are definite. The female Nov 3 that I have already provided.
carmspack leroy - German shepherd dog

at 6 to 9 months of age would go to training club and be able to "weave pole" through a row of handlers with dogs , and he was off lead.
He could be heeled and platzed off lead while we were walking directly behind the group doing circle agitation. He never needed a correction , or harsh word , or raised voice. Very biddable . Loved the babies including my grand daughter and her baby friends that were part of the training clubs family . 
He was able to be aggressed by 3 decoys at once, things thrown at him, etc. He was seriously tough . Could be left alone in the back of a pick up and people could pass no problem. Come to get something from the truck, which was not even mine, and he would guard the object -- don't try it . But he never left the truck . One time he popped off the back simply because his barking propelled him forward . He oopsed and jumped back up where he belonged and continued to guard.

This is responsiblity. How many times has our friend Ellen described leaving the dog alone to tend the sheep while she went to town or into the house for a while. Definite attribute of herding . 

When the event was over he was very affectionate to me, neutral to others including the decoys , and loved the babies, was very sweet with them as they grabbed his nose with their fist and gave a twist , or pummeled his lower jaw with their legs. He would like the little sweaty creases in their arm . Totally safe . Totally serious. Case in point , one day son in law goes into garage to get something. Dog gets out of crate , and directs son in law to back up to the car , then goes about his business, the moment son in law moves , dog makes a point of making sure he gets contained again. I come home later , husband says xxxxx is in the garage . Oh okay. Well he can't come out. Oh. I go in there is the young man , and the dog. The moment I release the dog , son in law can do what he needs to do. At no time did he feel afraid , but at no time would the dog allow him to move. 

Another dog Carmspack Samba - German shepherd dog beautiful Samba .
Just so happens to be a daughter of LeRoy described as first example.

From this pedigree I know that Asko Schloss Zweibruggen also produced this. Spoke with Julia Priest so many years ago when she acquired Asko out of a not so good situation. I know for a fact through one of my Swedish military k9 handlers that Asko's brother Arry also produced several dogs with this 'genetic obedience" . They were telling me of some amazing stories where the dogs were sent out on military reconnaissance and courier missions where they would have to travel miles, 10 miles round trip, under gun fire --- with tons of distractions , and shifting locations. The dog may be sent back with a message but the recipient had to , by necessity move on or away. It was then the dogs responsibility to locate that person to complete the mission. 
I had pictures of the dogs riding on the backs of big draught horses as part of the military border patrols. Great dogs , Great , gorgeous horses. Man pretty good too!!
I have the pedigrees somewhere .

Carmspack Bambi Carmspack Bambi - German shepherd dog
absolutely 
and her mother Kimarli , and see who is on her sire's side?

need to leave off here -- have someone to meet with -- will get back to more later 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Carmen, while it is genetic and the dog is very willing to work in partnership, are you saying there is not a way to tell to in a litter of small puppies? Is it that the breeding would need to be there for it and that is what to go on? I am wondering if Nancy is asking if there was some way she could detect it in a little puppy? Or is looking at the parents the most predictive, as the description of LeRoy is quite Samba-like?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I seriously cannot read anymore. 

I read this line as 'geriatric obedience.' And I am thinking obedience for geriatric dogs, or geriatric people with dogs and clicked. 

I need to get my eyes checked or check my medication...


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

> It has nothing to do with ball or retrieval. That test was devised for quickly finding a dog to match a reward system.


Respectfully disagree . . . I'm not necessarily looking for the puppy that will go out and simply chase the ball as a reward. I believe the puppy that will go out and *fetch* an item is exhibiting early initiative to interact with the handler. My best retrieving puppies have consistently been my best obedience prospects. Yes, each of them has enjoyed food and play, but they ultimately wanted to be with and please their handler.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Is this always so and is it best test? The dog I had who was a constant, indefatigable retriever was not naturally obedient or handler oriented. He was very self oriented and it was HIS favorite game.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Did he exhibit strong retrieving instincts early on, or did he learn to love the game of fetch as he matured?


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

The reason I ask is there are a million subtle nuances to temperament testing. If you watch a litter of puppies, you will see many variations of retrieving. Some puppies love to chase thrown objects, but will not return with the object. Some puppies ignore the thrown object entirely. (I personally don't want to try to teach that puppy utility articles!) Other puppies will chase the object and quickly return to the handler, prancing, pushing the paper into the handler like, "Woohoo, check this out!" This is the type of puppy I personally want to keep for performance. 

I had a really interesting conversation with a friend last week. She has two aussies. One is very compliant and handler oriented, the other is highly distractable. My friend described the puppy testing done with each puppy. Puppy 1 fit the scoring for performance puppies to a 'T'. Puppy 2 ran out picked up the paper, dropped the paper, got distracted, ran to a toy, ran across the room, came back, picked up the paper, came partway, etc., etc. Puppy 1 is a top performance dog and puppy 2 is doing well in performance, but is notoriously known for her ADHD. 

My friend's experience is consistent with my own. Retrieving puppies seem to be naturally compliant and willing to work with their handler. Of course temperament tests are only a Polaroid of one moment in a puppy's life and environmental plays a huge role in puppy development. I don't think there is a perfect method for evaluating obedience potential, but I have seen a correlation between strong retrieving instincts in puppies and willingness to please. I'm not trying to be contradictory . . . just sharing my own personal experiences.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while I am by no means an expert . With the dogs I've had, I do see the ones that have/had strong retrieving instincts to have been the best dogs obedience wise. 

I can relate to the ADHD in my female aussie, she's an airhead, has no retrieval desire in her at all. It's all about "her" She was an "ok" performance dog but frustrated the heck out of me with her inconsistency.. My male aussie, very obedient, and high retrieval drives. 

Goes for Masi and a couple of my other shepherds as well, high retreival , great obedience, and much more consistent (which I like, I do not like inconsitency)

Like i said, just my experience with the dogs I have/had.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My memory of his puppy testing report is not great. I wasn't there for it as he was far away as a pup. His retrieving did increase as he learned the game and he was quick to bring back the toy. It may have been more learning on his part than innate.
I do know that many people ascribe to the retrieve test for various types of service when assessing a pup. Perhaps it is reliable, I don't know.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the shepherd needed a very special dog , one that was an extension of himself , at a distance. The word genetic obedience that Nancy used was presented on another list by a person specialising in herding . Believe me it has not one thing to do with the ball , ball play, retrieval or even "obedience" as in trials and performance.
The obedience is to the genetics , how strongly have the best of the best attributes helpful and necessary to the bundle of behaviours used in herding been preserved and represented. 
I have lots of hard dogs with tons of retrieval drive, ball drive , and hunt and search and I would not include them in this "genetic obedience" group.
Think more farm dog smarts. A dog so keenly in tune with you, naturally, without props , that he picks up immediately what it is that needs to be done and figures out how to do it , and has the initiative to do it . Ball never comes in to the picture . That kind of reward simply not needed.
Partnership and partnership approval is all. Same with dogs that track like fiends for the pleasure of being allowed to track . No food on the track to motivate them , no ball play after. Look at the blog I provide all the time , Blast doing a schutzhund track , deep nose, foot to foot , no food , at 14 weeks of age. He was obedient to his genetics . 
There was a time when the "breeder" was much closer to his animals. Once again I am not talking about someone loving the pups and doing a fantastic job in raising them and sending them off into the world with the best planned future. I am talking about those that had dogs that they used day in and day out doing a job , that meant their livelihood and well being . Fellows in the same guild / occupation had their own favourite dogs . Dogs were bred to replace stock , not for commerce. There were generations of dogs run on from one family. Uschi was good for father , so Uschi produced Ulma , who when the time came was bred to the neighbour schafer's Henckel , and Uma was kept , when father retired and son took over he took Uma and he bred her to Axel and kept a female Una , and so on and so on. The dogs were bred for function and purpose . There was a control and fine tuning each generation. The dog either had a natural ability, a natural attraction to the sheep , or it did not. Ball play is a very recent determinant of working ability largely based on the Fuller and Scott, a biologist and a geneticist of the Bar Harbour institute , and Pfaffenberger -- trying to find a short cut to finding working dogs in the quickest way. But that won't find your sheep herding dog. It finds a dog that has some method of quickly connecting , some currency , to the handler. It does not expose intelligence , or tracking , or hunting skills. 
How if you were a truffle hunter would you select your dog , (or pig!) . Would you play ball and then use that , find the truffle boy or no ball play?, or would you sit quietly and let the pup roam around an area you know has truffles and then select the ones that are drawn to the scent naturally , deep nose , scent oriented . 
The dog is obedient to his genes . Almost as if he can't escape them , the need to do the work is hard wired . 

I did have a herding dog of another breed. Genetic obedience absolutely totally present . Even at 6 months of age he had a temporal sense , a sense of the rhythm of the routines . He knew the time to go out, what needed to be done, would have run the entire routine by himself. His problem was that he could not cap his drive -- had a harder time to be off , needed more presence and psychic pressure to be controlled , did not yield and comply as readily.

There are tons of dogs in the park that will chase the ball all day , ...... and .....
what else is there. 

So it not so much testing for the individual pup because that is not what you are looking for as finding the entire litter, the breeding done for this finely nuanced quality . Knowing the genetics , the pedigree, the reason for breeding , the past history of generations prior will give you more insight.

Nancy -- Ellen would know.

here is another pedigree Carmspack Sumo -- in spades (brother to Laurel Satovs Journey) Carmspack Sumo - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Cubby , narcotic dog - retired Carmspack Cubby - German shepherd dog

Carmina Sitting Bull CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German shepherd dog

common denominator heavy genetic herding base 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## lanaw13 (Jan 8, 2011)

Carmen,
Is the long coat gene related to the old world herding gene? I have "heard" that somewhere I think….
When I was very young, way before knowing anything about "obedience", or training a dog, we lived in Germany. I bought a long haired, floppy eared German Shepherd pup at a flea market for $75. She had the "genetic intelligence" that you speak of. We never taught her to track, but one of our favorite games was to play hide and seek in the woods, finding us by scent. She did everything we ever asked without any formal training…. and lived for 13 years….BEST DOG EVER!! and why I love GSDs.


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