# My desperate plea for help!



## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

Bear with me guys... this might be long. 

So Sam is just shy of 6 months... and I'm at my wit's end with her. She was very shy as a new puppy and later turned out to be quite energetic and nippy. No matter how hard I tried, I could not teach her bite inhibition - no amount of yipping or noise or ignoring or stuffing something in her mouth would help (including leaving the room, standing still, etc). She loves to play fight, which I do not allow. Now that is she 50 lbs of trouble, this is getting dangerous.

I started training her as soon as I got her, and she caught on to everything really quickly. I have socialized her (and continue to) as best I could, with people and dogs. Dogs, great, people, huge fail. She is territorial and extremely prey driven. I have never been able to tire her out with any amount of exercise - both physical or mental. 

Backtracking - in the mornings, she is quite cuddly and lovable. When I'm at work, my parents look after her, and she is the same with them - cuddly and loveable. When I get home from work, she is wiggly and whimpers and has never acted so excited to see anyone (this includes all people she knows well). As a side note, with my mentally challenged brother, she has never nipped him, only tries to lick him to death. But towards the evening, something changes. 

At first I attributed it to teething so I have tried different tactics. Exercise, flirt pole, ball chasing, training, walking, jogging, walking while training, putting her in time outs outside, putting her in her kennel, keeping her on a leash that is tied to me. I think I've actually tried everything other than hitting her or tethering her (actually, there's probably a lot of negative physical things I haven't tried). If I put her in her kennel or outside, she doesn't sleep so its not from overexhaustion either.

The other day she growled and bit me when I was trying to move her and her treat (this is the third time she did it and I only did it because it was absolutely necessary - I tried removing her, not the treat). She does not exhibit food guarding or food aggression with her kibble, just her treats on this third occasion. I know to leave her alone when she's eating, and I have never teased her with treats or have tried to take them away, so I'm not sure where this treat aggression stems from.

Tonight after a long walk and some supper, she was acting up, so I put her outside where she seemed to have settled. I went to take the garbage out, and she ran after me and bit me really hard - not landsharking which is usually a quick nip. This was a solid bite through my pants that took skin and left a bruise right away. She then started lunging at me and growling and nipping at me.

I'm at a loss. I have no idea what to do. I'm not sure if she'll outgrow it. I have wondered if its teething pain but her back molars are in and have been for a couple of weeks.

I am up in northern British Columbia so have found a nearby trainer/breeder with proper training, but haven't met her yet so am not sure how much she'll be able to help. Other than that I'm not sure of any nearby resources. The downside to living in the middle of nowhere.

I'm sure I'll get lots of suggestions of things I've covered but haven't remembered to write here... if so I'll let you know  

I have an animal science degree (I went to UBC Vancouver - based on how much I loved my last dog), and have never had problems with any of our previous dogs and can even handle some pretty tough horses. So I know my toughness and my gentleness is there, but I cannot seem to get through to my dog when she's like this. I feel like my only options are to a) give her up to a rescue or b) wait until she does something really awful and have to put her down. Neither of those appeal to me. She has lunged at a care aide at work while I was visiting, and she has bit/nipped a child visiting her at the kennel (I have not taken her back to the kennel since then as I'm not sure why a strange child was allowed to pet her).


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

When do you meet with the trainer?

Where in B.C.? 

This is both a leadership and training issue - your dog WILL NOT outgrow this.

If the trainer you are seeing does not work out, please PM me and we can chat - I am not sure how close to me you are, but I may be able to help. I am in Whitehorse, Yukon.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

She needs consistent discipline. I do not allow the dogs to growl at me or bite me hard. Kaleb has around trainers since he was 4 months old though. If they saw a problem they talked me through it right away. 

When you get home and she is very excited do you match her excitement? I have three dogs and the two little ones get very excited when I get home and I would show I was happy to see them. When we got Kaleb he saw their excitement as playtime and he would often get to rough with them. I've started coming home very mellow. If they act excited I stay calm and speak in a calm voice...usually saying down, because they jump a lot. When I stay calm they stay calmer than they were and the GSD doesn't amp out. 

I don't give up on dogs. I would get a trainer involved. They will be able to help with her and you.


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## bailej77 (Dec 30, 2013)

Growing up we had a dog that was like that and when I got my 2 German shepherds my girl was the same way.

The same approach worked for both dogs. But just to be clear I don't hit my dogs and am not abusive.

You have to show that you are the alpha and make them respect you.

Every time kyra bit me I "tackled" her. Just got on top of her hold her mouth closed and said be nice over and over.

The first few time she would try to over power me and bite me. When that happened just a small bite on her ear (not too hard) and she stopped. It wasn't long before she learned and now she is an amazing girl and a lover


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

bailej77 said:


> Growing up we had a dog that was like that and when I got my 2 German shepherds my girl was the same way.
> 
> The same approach worked for both dogs. But just to be clear I don't hit my dogs and am not abusive.
> 
> ...


While I never bit my dogs ear, I do agree with you. My dog also had aggression issues and was Alpha trained, he is six years old now and very well behaved.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

I should add that she's been extremely and increasingly skittish lately.... before she could handle thunder storms, the paper shredder, pretty much any loud noise. Lately if there's any small noise she'll jump out of her skin and run. Sometimes she'lll just jump out of her skin for no reason (at least a noise I can't hear). Tonight on our walk the snow plow passed us by and she nearly peed her pants.

In all honesty, if you were to approach her she would probably lunge or act as though she were an abused dog. So I think a lot of this stems from fear.

I do agree that this is a training/leadership issue. I have realized my limitations though that I don't know how to help myself and her (mostly me, I'm guessing, though her skittishness worries me), without professional help.

I am in Burns Lake, BC - so only geographically in the centre of BC but considered "northern" to the rest of BC.

Oh and I'll add as well - growling at me and talking back is not acceptable. Before she would back down and lay down and be quiet. Now she lunges and bites and growls. I have started leaving her on a leash inside so I can get a hold of the situation right away (with constant supervision), but this was the first time she did it outside, where I don't leash her as its a big fenced yard.

And I do low key greetings. I honestly act like the most impartial dog owner in the world sometimes because I know too-exciting greetings can be a problem with GSD. Now I just ignore her when I leave for work and when I get home, which sucks, but I've been trying this tactic too for at least a couple of months.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Have you gotten a great basis in ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html so she knows dozens of tricks already?

Are you familiar with the developmental and fear stages our pups go thru the first year? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ialize-i-want-photos-videos-puppies-dogs.html

When you contacted the breeder did they have any hints/tips to help? How are the littermates doing and do their owners have suggestions?

Glad to see you found a trainer because that should help too.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

Have you gotten a great basis in ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html so she knows dozens of tricks already?

I'm still working on tricks but there are tons more I need to teach her. She is a quick learner and I'm attempting (!) to train her in high distraction environments which is a struggle for her (if she's not paying attention we'll just keep going on our walk because its not acceptable for her to not obey). I will keep trying though, though with how she is right now she's giving me attitude for even getting her to sit. She always has to follow through with a command though.

Are you familiar with the developmental and fear stages our pups go thru the first year? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ialize-i-want-photos-videos-puppies-dogs.html

Yes! But at this point I would not let her off a leash - she seems to be going through her second fear stage which I thought was too early? Unfortunately she is so prey driven that the cat I was going to adopt I've decided not to adopt at this point. She was going to doggy day care but I've noticed her aggression increases for a day or two after going. And unfortunately it is the dead of winter here so there aren't really any outdoor activities or festivals to be taking her to. When she hit about 5 months she decided running away at any chance she got was fun to do - not cool. Unfortunately there's a women's shelter next door so letting her roam about for even a minute is not okay. (I realize this paragraph has a lot of unfortunately's). I wonder if I lived in a city, would that have been better, as there are more people, more dog parks, milder temps, and more trainers.

When you contacted the breeder did they have any hints/tips to help? How are the littermates doing and do their owners have suggestions?

Breeder - a joke. See my last thread. "Champion" showline breeder but from what I have read after scouring the internet, not a great temperament or health line of dogs. If you read my last thread, the breeder was accusatory that its my problem, and that my disabled brother must have abused her to cause her fear reactions. I have had two people contact me on here through PM - one who was also having health issues and one whose dog was so aggressive and unhealthy that they brought her back (same litter). So that is pretty much a dead end.

Glad to see you found a trainer because that should help too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh boy , lots of problems , serious problems .

You need to go right back to the beginning . You brought home "She was very shy as a new puppy " . 

could you tell more about the pup , her dam, the handling and exposure she had while at the breeders. Chances are she needed more good socialization before you brought her home. 
If the dam was anxious while in whelp , the pups would have been affected by this . After they were born if the dam was anxious the pups would have copied behaviour , learned flight avoidance . If the dam was an anxious sort , chances are that there is a genetic base in addition to environment .

That "quite energetic and nippy." could well be anxiety . 

this is so important "I have socialized her (and continue to) as best I could, with people and dogs. Dogs, great, people, huge fail."

how exactly did you "socialize" her? Dogs , no big matter. People huge fail will define her future. 
A dog can live without further exposure or contact with other dogs . 

A dog can NOT live without being in contact with people , and now you see she is anxious with you to the point of growling .

so you have to go back to square one and deal with the underlying problem , which is a lack of confidence and trust in people. Slow and cumulative positive steps, at the dogs own pace .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this dog doesn't need to go to the county fair to see people -- too much . what she needs is to go to the Post Office in town , and you stand outside feet away from the door , where people do not have to pass you , but you have view of those people coming and going. You are not going to invite people to come see the doggy . Rather not. No social pressure. You are going to be neutral . Let the dog take in the information, and as the ice melts (does not mean you stand there till April!) within her and anxiety lessens , the dog may sit at your side or may even take one step forward and sit in front of you (instead of behind). You give her the power to go forward . That is all for step one. So then you praise quietly , and then leave in the direction away from the doors so that you do not go into the flow of the people.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would hope that your animal science degree experience covered some brain chemistry -- how would you change this . 
Consider life from the dogs perspective. Every single day she is forced to face and deal with the very things that give her fear -- people . 
when you said she learned things quickly - that could be submissive obedience or compliance , which is anxiety . I speculate that because you can not teach her bite inhibition. 
Now instead of compliance she gives you attitude on anything you ask of her . The dog has learned that plan A wasn't working , message not getting to you , so amps it up and uses plan B .
She used to lay down , now she lunges and growls or resists. "Before she would back down and lay down and be quiet. Now she lunges and bites and growls."

I don't know why you would "to train her in high distraction environments which is a struggle for her " . A dog in stress , a student in stress , can not lay down new knowledge , can not learn .
She is already stressed to the point where you are creating environmental problems - snow plow going by dog peeing her pants, thunder , what ever . The dog can't handle it !
She needs zero tricks . 
She needs to be given peace of mind and confidence. 

"I went to take the garbage out, and she ran after me and bit me really hard - not landsharking which is usually a quick nip. This was a solid bite through my pants that took skin and left a bruise right away. She then started lunging at me and growling and nipping at me."
either that or avoidance "When she hit about 5 months she decided running away at any chance she got was fun to do - not cool"
two sides of the fear aggression sword .


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I use my local Wal-Mart for socialization. I set up with a lawn chair, bring a cooler and make a picnic out of it.

With a fearful dog, I start at the edge of the parking lot furthest away from the store. I put the dog on a harness and long line and we just hang out. I keep the dog from focusing on anything for longer than a few seconds. I use toys or treats if necessary to keep the dog engaged with me, but usually I try to keep the dog attentive to me with calm interaction.

As the dog shows me relaxation, we move closer to the store. I keep people from interacting with the dog. I let the dog decide what the training looks like. Sometimes we keep moving, other times we sit and relax or play games. It's all about observing the dog and keeping it in the right frame of mind.

It took a month of regular visits with a fearful Mastiff to make it to the front door. This dog ended up being very confident, even walking with my youngest son in costume in a Halloween parade.

David Winners


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I wanted to update you with the situation. Sam's behaviour had escalated to the point where she seemed to be stuck in "kill" mode. I took her out to the local GSD expert and it seemed very much like a lost cause - she said she's never seen a dog this young this aggressive and was not sure how likely it was that Sam could ever be "rehabilitated". I had hoped she would tell me this is my fault and not one of those rare (very very very rare, I know) crossed-wire dogs. Because it usually *is* the owner's fault for a variety of reasons. Myself and my parents (my dad grew up on a farm and knows his animals too!), have been diligent in training, exercising, and giving the best life we could to this pup.

On Monday morning she attacked me. Something went funny in her brain - I could see it in her eyes. I was talking with my mom on the couch and my mom was rolling the ball for her (for the record, playing ball was the only thing that has seemed to bring her happiness lately... and even then more due to her prey drive than actual play). She stopped chasing the ball, looked at me, barked, and I could see her coming for me. She jumped on me just as I covered my face, and my mom pulled her off. I wasn't doing or saying anything unusual - not talking to her, fiddling with anything, no unusual body movements, nothing. Just beserk.

I made an appt with the vet to put her down. My vet is pretty great - a die hard animal lover that I've known for most of my teen/adult life. She refused to Sam down without looking into other options. Sam stayed at the clinic and eventually went to the vet tech/kennel lady's place that afternoon. Sam has been doing well, except her aggression is escalating. At this point it is clear she will never be a family pet and cannot really be around kids. At this point anyone making eye contact with her is a trigger. She cannot go to a shelter - even the vet tech/kennel owner said Sam is too much for her.

They've found a GSD rescue organization that has extensive experience with her siblings. This MO is not unusual for her bloodlines and I guess my story isn't the first or last. I'm angry - so angry - that someone could run a breeding kennel in this manner. Not only did I fall in love with Sam, so did my family, and I've spent thousands of dollars on testing and training so far. I don't know what the likelihood of her not doing serious damage to someone is throughout her life before she actually is put down for attacking someone.

This is as far as we've gotten so far. I'm pretty heart broken. Bitch at me all I want for whatever you think I've done irresponsibly, but I think I've done pretty good considering her temperament and the resources I have available here. Sam has had 24/7 care since I've brought her home so my time allowance with her hasn't been it. But I thought I owed this to the people who have supported me over the last four months.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

All I want to say, is I am sorry that all this came out this way. It is very sad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No bitching coming from here. She sounds like a really hard case, and I am surprised that your vet does not put her down. It sounded almost like rage syndrome, where you can see it in their eyes. But then, you said eye contact is her trigger, and rage syndrome seems to be more like epilepsy and the triggers are not so much known. 

I think it would probably be better for everyone for the poor thing to be put down. I don't understand your vet at all. 

Maybe it is her age. It is hard to believe a puppy is beyond all hope.

I am sorry you are having this problem.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Would your breeder be able to find out for you how the rest of the litter is doing? Could this be a genetic problem?

I'm very sorry to hear it has turned out as it has.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

selzer said:


> No bitching coming from here. She sounds like a really hard case, and I am surprised that your vet does not put her down. It sounded almost like rage syndrome, where you can see it in their eyes. But then, you said eye contact is her trigger, and rage syndrome seems to be more like epilepsy and the triggers are not so much known.
> 
> I think it would probably be better for everyone for the poor thing to be put down. I don't understand your vet at all.
> 
> ...


I guess the reasoning is that with someone very very experienced and with the time and resources she can have a good life. How likely this is again.. I'm not sure.The vet was supposed to talk to one of the provincial behaviourists on the phone today and I'm not sure how the conversation went. From what I understand this vet does have a particular track record of not putting dogs down when the owner wants to... why, I'm not sure, and it puts me in a hard place. I guess it is very hard for anyone to understand how a dog this young can't be "fixed" somehow. With all the bloodwork I've done on her, nothing shows up that would indicate seizures. 

I'm pretty sad, and I've cried a lot. I don't like playing God, but then again, I don't like my vet playing God either. If and whenever I do get a dog down the road, it will be an adult rescue that is in need of a loving home but that would be quite awhile from now.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> Would your breeder be able to find out for you how the rest of the litter is doing? Could this be a genetic problem?
> 
> I'm very sorry to hear it has turned out as it has.


The breeder is apparently a glorified puppy mill - putting out 20 litters a year from what I hear now that I've started digging around. I did not meet the mom and there's probably a reason for that. I also don't think Sam had any human socialization prior to me picking her up at 8 weeks other than the breeder feeding her.

From what I understand of the vet clinic's research and with their contact with the GSD info group, this breeder is well known to them (the rescue group) for having similar problem case dogs. In other words, really really really bad (and dangerous) breeding.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

you are clearly hurting and, whatever, this dog doesn't belong in the average, or even most experienced homes.

An awful dilemma!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm very sorry - I've been in a similar situation, and it is heart breaking. I do believe that all these issues are genetic, and not your fault in any way.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

OP-how do you react when she bites you? How do you correct her?


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

Oh, OP, I'm so very sorry for the situation you are in. I'm so not going to point fingers or anything. I am going to ask, is there another vet you can take her to and go ahead and get her euthanized, or at least a second opinion? Because honestly, I don't foresee this turning out well no matter how much gets poured into this dog, and it's only going to get harder to do it. It really does sound like genetics is the crucial thing here, and you can rarely overcome such a strong genetic component. I spent thousand of dollars, hours of time, and a couple of years trying to rehab one of my dogs, and ultimately, had to euth her anyway, and it was heartbreaking, so I can relate to the pain you must be going through.


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear this. Just sad


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## rumhelka (Aug 31, 2011)

She can not "outgrow it", but I think she can be taught (disciplined) not to do it... she is just six months old, she is testing the waters. You have to correct any unwanted behavior, growling and biting is not allowed. Be clear about it when she is still young. If necessary, put a muzzle on her when she is around people. Cathegorically say "no" each time she does an unwanted thing. Did you check her eyes and ears, maybe when its dark, she doesn't see???
I think that because she was a shy puppy you allowed her to be a certain way and now it is a problem. You are lucky that you know her past and should be able to correct whatever problem she has. Good Luck!


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I have no experience in this matter. But I wanted to let you know how sorry I am for you and your dog. Please dont beat yourself up. It sounds like you have tried really hard with your dog.
Did the vet do any bloodwork testing?


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*No Vet Needed.*

I am utterly and completely sympathetic for you and your dog.

But I will say one thing...and I hope I don't offend you. If any dog I owned ever bit me with intent to injure I wouldn't need any vet's help putting the dog down. That would go double for any dog I owned biting a child.

There's plenty of open quiet country lanes around here in Texas.

LF


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

This seems to be a common occurrence here, higher than acceptable displays of aggression. This is especially troubling when it's directed at the owner or family members. It's all the more serious when it could lead to the dog getting 'put down'.

I've been away from the shepherd breed for a while, just got back in, but have been around dogs going on 40+ years. I see 2 important issues to prevent this. The 1st being proper & varied socialization. The 2nd, more important item is a FIRM correction when called for. I have a dog training book written back in the 60's or earlier. The author mentions the few times when a dog deserves a "thrashing", in correct context. I realize some don't want to think about that, then I wonder how many dogs were put down that didn't need to be? Sometimes trading out a chew toy for your fingers isn't enough.

He goes on to say, this 'thrashing', done once or twice, is all it takes, compared to a dozen 'half measures'. Of course it takes the rest of the training & exercise program to be in place also.

It's good to have more than one method in your bag of tricks.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There is a genetic component to this dog's behavior that no thrashing will take care of (not advocating a thrashing for any other dog either - but not this dog in particular).


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think there is no chance that corrections are going to change this dog. 

I think you should have the dog evaluated by a professional. The thing that stands out is the comment about you seeing the aggression in the dogs eyes. It sounds like a chemical imbalance causing aggression. IMO, there is nothing you can do but put the dog down if that is the case. 

Without seeing that dog, I can't tell. I'm just saying that it sounds like the dog is wired wrong. I hope you keep yourself safe, and find someone to realistically evaluate the dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"They've found a GSD rescue organization that has extensive experience with her siblings. This MO is not unusual for her bloodlines and I guess my story isn't the first or last. I'm angry - so angry - that someone could run a breeding kennel in this manner. "

That is absolutely horrible . No blame to you . 

Let the vet know where you got the dog from so that they can start tracking other clients with dogs from the same place and possibly the same problem . That will take the breeder off the vet's list of recommended breeders.


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, and just to clarify, one needs to consider the totality of the whole situation. I don't discount the fact there can be 'bad' dogs. If that is truly the case, one must do what they have to do.

Back to my mention of 'stern correction', doing so is totally out of place if other tenants are not accounted for. The best way to start off with a pup is developing a trusting bond then good socialization. Once that bond and trust is established it will not be broken IF serious correction is called for. JMHO of course.

I was at a relative's house years ago, with my dog. The guy asked me, 'where do I get a dog like that'? I said, 'you don't get a dog like that' anywhere. I mentioned a few things about socialization, bonding, and training.


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## Shepnut (Jul 7, 2012)

*Hey- UBCTRESS!*

I can see the author of the thread, who apparently is in distress, hasn't contributed in about a week. Who knows what is going on...

From what she reported it would seem that she has a dog of week nerve and poor temperament who appears to be a menace to owner and stranger alike. It happens that there are genetically flawed dogs that sometimes must be dispatched and this APPEARS to be the case.

So, the owner who appears to be caring, responsible and intelligent brings her dog to a vet to be euthanized. The vet does not do what he has been hired to do. Meanwhile the owner is still RESPONSIBLE for any damages this dog may inflict. 

I would recommend that if the vet refuses to do what he was hired to do, that he he purchase the dog for 1$ with a bill of sale and that ALL records show the change in ownership- RSPCA/pound responsible for tags, CKC, vet file, microchip agency etc. 

I believe this vet is putting the owner into a very precarious position at a time when she is emotionally troubled by having to do the responsible thing with this violent and aggressive k9.

From these accounts by UBCTRESS, what kind of placement could the "rescue group" find that would be better? Unlikely...

UBCTRESS, this dog is your property. Unless you have a clause in your contract with the breeder that she has first right of refusal and has not exercised it, you are entitled to do what you may lawfully see fit to do. A family with a farming background need not have much more explained to them.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm troubled that people are advocating "doing what needs to be done" for a 6 month old puppy. I know very thoughtful, caring pet owners that have put their old or very sick dogs down with a bullet to the head, because they believed this was the best thing for the dog (no vet visit, take the dog to his favorite place in the woods). It is not always a quick or easy death for the dog, and can be extremely traumatizing emotionally. 

People reading this on the internet may not understand the difference between a dog that is wired wrong and going after people aggressively, and a 6-month old puppy that nips a child's mitten in play/herding mode. It is never, ever, a good idea to advocate for killing dogs with behavior problems without first seeing the dog.

I understand the dog in question sounds like she has a screw loose and most likely is unfixable, but there are plenty of perfectly sound GSDs that may accidentally or playfully bite someone when they are six-month old puppies. The vast majority can be "fixed" easily, or may not even need fixing. 

Please think carefully before advocating for a "quiet country lane shot in the head" for a six month old GSD that is biting inappropriately. I'm very sorry the OP is going through this, her dog sounds like a head case (not having seen her, I can't know for sure) but more than just the OP reads this thread.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey guys, 

It is late but did not have any news as to Sam until this past week. It is a sad story. I think I was very confused by so many people telling me what to do (because everyone seems to be a dog expert - God bless all of you who sympathized with me rather than trying to fix the situation without meeting her).

As it turns out, the vet spoke with the provincial behaviourist on the phone shortly after I euthanized her. They did not tell me what the results of the phone call were. The plan was to go ahead with the rescue society (German Shepherd Rescue of BC). 

I apologize, at this point in the story, it will be a lot of drama that I am quite upset about. I also want to say that I have known this particular vet since I was a kid, and even volunteered with her when I was doing my animal science degree so I could get an idea of what being a rural vet was like. 

Sam ended up staying at the local kennel run by the vet tech for about 4 weeks. The soonest they could get her down to the GSD rescue was February 27, when one of the vet tech's colleagues was flying through Vancouver. (Sorry - winter in northern BC - the trip to Vancouver by car is 12 hours during good summer conditions). 

We had issues with the rescue society from the beginning - at first the vet tech forgot to send the email, and they gave up Sam's spot. Then there was an issue of papers and ownership. Apparently they (the rescue) have an ongoing feud with the breeder and are familiar with this breeder's issues in terms of breeding puppies with neurological and health issues. They absolutely refused to take Sam unless the CKC ownership papers were given over. Somewhere, somehow, in my contract, it states that if I decide to give up ownership, the breeder exercises the option to take the dog. The breeder had told me she would do the paperwork for CKC for me, and I never followed up, because it never really mattered to me whether Sam was a purebred or not. It never occurred to me that any of this would happen in the future. The breeder stated that SHE had the papers, and refused to hand them over. 

The breeder refused - was pissed at me apparently for not "telling" her all of Sam's issues (I did, and she blamed everything on me, including blaming Sam's temperament on my mentally disabled brother, who lives elsewhere and was never with Sam for more than a few minutes unsupervised - btw Sam loved him!) She then lost interest in taking back Sam once she knew Sam was spayed. 

As far as I know, they were going to take Sam anyways on Feb 27 - and the rescue had agreed to pick her up with the official papers following ASAP. As it turns out, the girl who brought Sam down, forgot what papers they had in her truck at the airport, and the rescue society refused to even pick her up. Westjet offered to fax down the papers right away and send the actual papers on the next flight a few hours later that same day, but the rescue still refused. The girl taking the dog was connecting to her flight to Seattle. Essentially Sam was abandoned at the airport. 

The vet tech did not know what to do, as Sam did not have her kennel cough, and based on her aggression history, would not have been taken by the SPCA anyway. So she contacted Turtle Gardens, a local shelter, who has connections in Vancouver, and where most of their fosters go while they wait for adoption. I think the plan was for Sam to be fostered down there or something along those lines - maybe just for a night while they figured out what to do. Turtle Gardens found her an overnight shelter and then flew her back to their shelter in Topley through Smithers the next day. I think by the time the vet clinic found out where she was, well, I'm not sure, I have no idea why they bowed out at that point. 

I found a post on Turtle Gardens about a week and a half ago that made me think this was Sam (a post about needing an overnight shelter for a six month old GSD). At this point, I kind of thought Sam was running around free on a nice little farm with an experienced GSD handler from the rescue society. I could not get any updates from anyone about what was actually happening... the staff at the vet clinic kind of passed the buck around and perhaps it was my own fault for not following up. I did notice that none of the adopted-out dogs from the rescue had any dogs that looked like Sam - which meant either they were not successful in rehabilitating Sam's siblings or they never dealt with this breeder's dogs in the first place. Who knows.

In any case, I contacted the vet tech the same night I found this facebook post and she told me the truth of what had happened and where Sam really was. I have no idea why no one told me (this will be explained shortly - what Turtle Gardens is really like). The plan was originally, before sending Sam, that the vet clinic's staff agreed to put Sam down if the rescue society didn't work out. Going to Turtle Garden ( a no kill shelter), or any other shelter was not an option based on her temperament. 

The vet tech gathered up three people, and the four of us went out to pick up Sam the next day. It took a couple of hours of negotiating before we could get her back from Turtle Gardens. We had to threaten to call the police, and then they relented. 

Sam was emaciated, very sick, had severe diarrhea, and bad kennel cough. She was covered in feces and urine, and extremely unsettled. We ended up putting her down (at my decision) a couple of days later. The vet did this free of charge.

At this point I have a couple of questions - what can I do about the breeder? She is basically a glorified puppy mill (with a fancy website and a lot of awards). Apparently she has done jail time and people have tried shutting her down before without much success. I have been to her kennel, and it was clean (despite the fact that Sam came home with giardia and needed a special diet after that). They are no signs of animal cruelty or problems with animal welfare based on visual inspections. I am unsure how to follow up with this, and worry about slander if I publicly slam her.

Then there is the issue with Turtle Gardens. If you are in BC, you are probably aware of them. They have an online reputation for being a great no kill shelter and are lauded for all the hard work they do. At some point it was run by a couple, but they separated, switched locations, and it is now run by the wife, who is housebound due to health issues, and her son. I suspect some sort of cognitive or mental disorder based on what I know of him and have talked with him about. In any case, the place is run very very poorly. They do not seem to have the resources to maintain the dogs they have. They apparently bring the adoptable dogs down to Vancouver every three weeks, and keep the unadoptable ones there until they die.

The dogs there were emaciated, I could not see any access to water, some had visible wounds, and some were running around with a leash still attached. There is a dirt court yard that is covered with feces - the whole ground. There were also piles of feces about a foot high scattered about. I would have estimated there were between 30-50 dogs there. I have reported them to the BCSPCA but I kind of got a "well, we'll add this to the pile of complaints, and we'll eventually look at it".

There is also a rumour that is a front for drugs - when I spoke with the owner the smell of marijuana was wafting out of the window. I also emailed the Humane Society asking them what to do. 

Oh, and to end this with a bang - as it turns out the meeting the vet had with the behaviourist resulted in a report a couple of pages long. It suggested fluoxetine, that whomever ended up with this dog would likely live in social isolation for the next 10+ years, that Sam needed to be introduced at well below threshold to any stimuli, and even with strict rehabilitation, that she may snap at any point. The behaviourist suggested euthanization. This was before any plans were made to send her to the rescue.

I feel like everyone failed her - myself, the vet clinic, the rescue society, and of course TG. We all tried but failed in our own ways, and she suffered for the last month of her life, significantly. 

Thank you for reading this.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I'm troubled that people are advocating "doing what needs to be done" for a 6 month old puppy. I know very thoughtful, caring pet owners that have put their old or very sick dogs down with a bullet to the head, because they believed this was the best thing for the dog (no vet visit, take the dog to his favorite place in the woods). It is not always a quick or easy death for the dog, and can be extremely traumatizing emotionally.
> 
> People reading this on the internet may not understand the difference between a dog that is wired wrong and going after people aggressively, and a 6-month old puppy that nips a child's mitten in play/herding mode. It is never, ever, a good idea to advocate for killing dogs with behavior problems without first seeing the dog.
> 
> ...


I agree with you - I think the chances of a dog being wired wrong right from the beginning are very rare. Maybe 1 in 10,000. I think a lot of dogs are given up because they need a firm and stable owner/household... too jumpy, not exercised enough, and they have learned from the beginning what behaviours they can get away with and what works to get what they want. I think Sam was a combo of both - she was born wired wrong but I did not have the knowledge or resources to give her what she needed. I guess this is why the rescue was involved - because apparently they have experience with troubled GSD, and even better, was that they stated they knew Sam's issues based on their previous experience with the breeder. 

I have been lucky in life, prior to Sam, in that both of my dogs, raised from puppies, were GSD mixes with fairly stable temperaments. 

I regretted every day that I could not have done more for her - especially with how many people out there want a beautiful GSD but do not have the experience or lifestyle to raise one, especially one with a tendency towards unstable behavioral traits. I think if a lot of people understood that many dogs (i.e the ones that end up in shelters and the ones rescued from shelters) need training, consistency, and and a lifestyle that supports what the dog needs to thrive, then we'd have a lot more happy and safe dogs, and less shelters full of dogs that are "difficult".


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

It won't let me edit this again - the second paragraph is supposed to say "As it turns out, the vet spoke with the provincial behaviourist on the phone shortly after I *tried* to euthanize her". 



ubctress said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> It is late but did not have any news as to Sam until this past week. It is a sad story. I think I was very confused by so many people telling me what to do (because everyone seems to be a dog expert - God bless all of you who sympathized with me rather than trying to fix the situation without meeting her).
> 
> ...


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

Wow, that is a terrible story. If it's any help at all, please don't dwell on that last month - you had no responsibility for that outcome. It sounds as if you did the absolute best you could in an extremely difficult situation.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wow, what a horrible, tragic situation. I'm so sorry.  

You're right about one thing - a lot of people failed Sam, but I don't think you're one of them. You did the best you could, and more than many other people would have under the circumstances. If the vet and behaviorist had shared that report with you sooner, Sam would have been spared the suffering of her last month because you would have euthanized her immediately, and it is absolutely not your fault that they kept that information from you. I can't believe that a vet and behaviorist would still be reluctant to euthanize under those circumstances, and it's shocking that you were not informed of their findings. :angryfire:

I know none of that alleviates the guilt you feel, but please try to forgive yourself. Would you mind sending me a PM about who the breeder is?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm so sorry you went through that. How horrible!


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## jetdog (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm so sorry things turned out the way they did, but you did the best you could for your girl and freed her from her demons. There are some people that may not agree with your decision, but they did not experience her behavior firsthand, so that makes it impossible to judge.

Can you please pm me Sam's breeder?

Very sad situation all the way around, and it's too bad the breeder didn't step up and be responsible enough to take back Sam and possibly work on her serious issues.


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## readmeli (Feb 28, 2013)

I've just read this and I am so sorry to the OP for what she has had to go through in all of this. I do hope something good comes of it in the end. So sad. This could have been any one of us I think.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like you did everything you could do for the dog. I am sorry that the last month was so awful. I am glad that you managed to rescue your dog from a fate worse than death. Because, if you did not get the dog out of that place, it would have been so much worse, and she would have probably lived like that for months, even years.

Legally, I don't know. I think that if you stick to what your experience was with a breeder, I don't know how you can be slammed with liable -- this means, not saying stuff about how the rescue works with all kinds of dogs from those lines, etc -- that could be heresay.

On the other hand, I don't even know the laws pertaining to this sort of thing in my own country, and I think you should probably consult a lawyer about what steps you can legally take without any negative issues. 

It sounds like the breeder has a history of instability it the lines, and is continuing to breed the dogs. In this country, that is perfectly fine. There are no laws that says that you are responsible for the temperament of the pups you produce. Some places have laws about genetic issues and the responsibility of the breeder, but it would be hard to prove genetic weakness is definitely the cause of aggression, and other behavior disorders. So legally, I don't think there is much you can do, especially if the establishment is kept up, and all seems picture perfect.

However, I wonder if you can start a facebook-type group or something like that, a support group for disgruntled owners of a [insert breeder's name] Shepherd. And somehow if you can make a google search for that breeder link to your facebook-type page, then when people google that breeder they will most likely find you.

And the thing is, no one had 100% satisfaction. If you have sold a number of puppies, the chances are you are going to have one or more unhappy people. On topics of paperwork/money etc, people will generally make their decision based on the buyer's viewpoint. And if someone has a criminal background, photos from a humane agency raid, than that is hard to ignore. But when a person's complaint is aggression, in a breed, that is bred with an amount of potential aggression, than too many people are not going to accept that. 

However, if you have a community -- if you find other people with a trend of the same problems with their dogs, then potential buyers who find such a site when googling the name, will be much more likely to listen and stay away.

I'm sorry you are in this position. I really don't know if there is anything you can do. I would probably be screaming about the shelter that had a dog for a month or less and turned it into being filthy and emaciated. Perhaps getting local news involved in how your humane society tends to condone such places, etc, my light a match under them.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

sigh. talk about "do you know where that dog is going?" truthfully, my feeling is any rescue that would accept and take a chance on a dog with these behavior issues is suspect. and i cannot understand how a veterinary clinic can make a decision for any owner regarding euth, without purchasing the dog. an awful situation all the way 'round. rest in peace sam.


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## susanne42 (Feb 24, 2013)

ubctress said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> It is late but did not have any news as to Sam until this past week. It is a sad story. I think I was very confused by so many people telling me what to do (because everyone seems to be a dog expert - God bless all of you who sympathized with me rather than trying to fix the situation without meeting her).
> 
> ...


That is indeed a very sad ending story.
I was in a similar situation with a Rottweiler bitch more than ten years ago. She was plain unpredictable and afte a couple thousand dollars later with behaviorist we opted to put her down only eight moth old. We had a vet that agreed with us. Still sad but the dog did not need to suffer in the end. It did not help to ease the feeling that something different could/ should have been tried.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

rest in peace little dog .

what a nightmare . 

could you PM me the breeder . I want to make very sure that none of my dogs , or those bred by a long time friend in BC , ever go there.


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## ubctress (Oct 11, 2013)

selzer said:


> It sounds like you did everything you could do for the dog. I am sorry that the last month was so awful. I am glad that you managed to rescue your dog from a fate worse than death. Because, if you did not get the dog out of that place, it would have been so much worse, and she would have probably lived like that for months, even years.
> 
> Legally, I don't know. I think that if you stick to what your experience was with a breeder, I don't know how you can be slammed with liable -- this means, not saying stuff about how the rescue works with all kinds of dogs from those lines, etc -- that could be heresay.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this - I had contacted the BC SPCA. I had emailed them through their site regarding the shelter but they kind of had a "well, we'll add it to the pile of complaints regarding this shelter" attitude, after I followed up to talk to them on the phone. I had contacted the Humane Society but they said legally, it is the SPCA in BC that takes care of animal cruelty and welfare issues. They couldn't do much. 

As for the breeder - all I can do for now is share my story... legally, I don't think I'd ever go through the financial loss of trying to do anything in court. I think it would cost more to hire a lawyer than what she was worth and what I spent on her - plus there isn't really anything I can prove other than what my vet or the behaviourist might be able to say.

This has made me form an opinion of no-kill shelters though - as much as people hate PETA, I think they're right on this - making an animal stay for longer than a predetermined amount of time in anything other than a top notch shelter, especially an animal with special needs (Sam needed special food, we never did sort her GI issues out). 

Thanks so much everyone for your support.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I had hoped she would tell me this is my fault and not one of those rare (very very very rare, I know) crossed-wire dogs.


Sadly, dogs with crossed wires are not nearly as uncommon as they should be. Anyone not rigorously selecting for temperament is selecting against it. Despite the lip service paid to 'health & temperament' far too many breeding programs are not concerned with health & temperament beyond making the obligatory (& meaningless) statements. Even careful, discerning buyers can be duped, sometimes with tragic results.

I am very, very sorry for both you & your pup. Take time to heal & know that you did all that you could. Sadly, there are dogs that can't be saved. Genetics (from indifferent or bad breeding) has just whammied them beyond fixing.

I won't rush to fault your vet. Dogs are more than property & vets have an ethical obligation to serve them well. It is appropriate to seek more information & look for possible alternatives. S/he may have taken it too far but I personally prefer that to a philosophy which considers animals no more than 'property'. I know of a vet who euthanized healthy dogs & cats when the owners went on vacation over the holidays b/c it was cheaper to replace them than to board them! THAT to me is an unforgivable dereliction of duty. I could never use a vet that regarded animals with such crass 'practicality'. Your vet was possibly misguided, but kudos to him/her for pursuing all possibilities for the patient.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Can you go to the Canadian Kennel Club with your fist full of documents , reports, professional opinions , and lay a complaint against the breeder . There is an ethics board . 

Can you go to the German Shepherd Dog Club of Canada and lay a complaint . They also have a Breeders Code of Ethics .

Both these groups can ban this breeder from participating in shows.

That would put a crimp in their operation.


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