# My dog bit somone Need Help



## bigworm36 (May 3, 2009)

So my dog is 2.5 years old, and I pretty much take him everywhere with me to get my oil changed, to eating outside at restaurants and even into Lowes since he was a puppy. He is not an aggressive dog but protective. I also do training with him and is trained very well. Anyways I was at starbucks today and I was sitting outside at a table. My dog was in a down position on laying right next to me just people watching like all the other times. A guy was walking behind me and stuck his hand out in front of my dog as he was walking by ( I assumed going to pet him) and as he did that my dog bit him before I could say something. I was at first mad and went up to him and asked why did you ask to pet him first, when I should have apologized. His hand was bleeding but didnt look like stitches were needed. I then got yelled at by his wife and her friend telling me how could I bring such a crazy dog out in public and so on, and went into starbucks and told them I had to leave cause my dog was aggressive. I then gave them my information and my dogs micro chip number and they said I will be hearing from animal control. They said they love dogs and have dogs but I should not have him in public. My dog has never bit anyone and after they left I had two people come up to me saying that my dog or I did not do anything wrong, one being a retired police officer sitting right next to me outside. They gave me there information and said to call them if I need anything. I really dont know what else to do, was I in the wrong, I dont want to loose my dog.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

First off, I want to say how sorry I am that you're going through this. I can only imagine your stress right now. 

I think the guy should have asked before putting his hand down in front of your dog because your dog was likely startled and perceived him as a threat since your dog was in a down position and he came up from behind and bent over him.

With that being said though, not everyone is educated on dog etiquette and this is a situation which happens all the time when in public. People want to see your dog and will stick their hand out while walking by.

I can see both sides of the situation. If you're dog has the capacity to bite when startled then that's not a good thing. What if it was a child walking by?


I don't think you're going to lose your dog but you will most likely have AC pay you a visit.


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## bigworm36 (May 3, 2009)

fuzzybunny said:


> First off, I want to say how sorry I am that you're going through this. I can only imagine your stress right now.
> 
> I think the guy should have asked before putting his hand down in front of your dog because your dog was likely startled and perceived him as a threat since your dog was in a down position and he came up from behind and bent over him.
> 
> ...



He is good with children I can that I dont believe that would have happened if it were a child, the guy did not reach over him he just started to stick his hand out in front of him as he was walking by. Other people have walked by while I was sitting there with no issue. I do appreciate your response that helps with the stress of them not taking him. I have never had anything like this happen so I am not sure on how to handle it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not sure what to respond on this one. It doesn't sound like the guy really did anything to provoke your dog and that your dog reacted inappropriately to the situation. I think the situation may have ended differently if you had asked about the guys welfare instead of yelling at them.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Tough situation for you! 

I have had similar things happen as we were walking thrugh a park with a soccer tournament - some guy walking from behind us (never saw him!) and he walks by us and reaches out and pets baron on the top of his head three or four pats! Fortunately Baron thought it was kind of cool and just wagged his tail but i could see him reacting differently to this also.

Some folks just act kind of wierd sometimes. 

You might want to talk to a lawyer just in case to find out what the law and your rights might be where you live.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And the first thing I would do is NOT post about it on a public forum!!!! All this can be used in court!!!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its a hard situation.....i can certainly understand the OP being upset and getting mad, sometimes thats a first response, maybe not the right one, but a surprise situation can definitely cause that reaction with some......

if your dog has not ever shown anything like this before than it could be a fluke thing, but it does also show he is capable of reacting to a surprise hand out on front of his face......

i doubt you will lose your dog, he was leashed, right? and he does have current Rabies Vac? you may see the AC person, but i don't think it would go more than that........

its something you might want to be aware of when out in public now that its happened, there are alot of stupid dog people in this world and you do kinda have to keep an evil eye out.........I do have a potential bitter, i do go out in public, but i also pick where i go, and am aware of my surroundings.........not much fun, but thats the way it is............but, in your case, it really sounds like a fluke, but something to make a note of.............LOL


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

bigworm36 said:


> He is good with children I can that I dont believe that would have happened if it were a child, the guy did not reach over him he just started to stick his hand out in front of him as he was walking by. Other people have walked by while I was sitting there with no issue. I do appreciate your response that helps with the stress of them not taking him. I have never had anything like this happen so I am not sure on how to handle it.


You know your dog best so has he showed any signs in the past that you can recall where he demonstrated fear/nervousness/protectiveness towards strangers? Knowing the trigger can help you work with your dog. Something about that situation made him uneasy and he reacted. 

I would contact a trainer and discuss what happened with them. You have nothing to lose and if AC shows up at your door perhaps it will help because it will look like you're taking the incident very seriously and doing all you can?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is like so many stories we see and hear all the time. Think back to the home depot store where an employee stuck their hand into the cart where the lap dog was. 
People are unpredictable , so you can't let your guard down no matter how good the dog is.
I also see people taking there dogs everywhere and then the dog sits , bored, waiting around. If you are out with your dog be out with your dog. Not walking and talking on the cell phone , not spending the hour , which should be for the jog or training session, at a restaurant or doing grocery shopping. Not at the oil change . See it here taking the dog for a Sunday drive . Those are things you need to do, there's nothing in it for the dog. There is more to bonding than being carted around. Worse ! in my daughters subdivision saw a woman out for exercise (good idea) proud as punch , smiling at me as I drove by , with two overweight pug , beagle crosses sitting in a two-dog carriage . Those dogs were in dire need of the walk.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wolfman (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear this. Certainly not a good situation, but by the sounds of it it was difficult for you to head it off.

Seeing as your dog had never acted like this before leads me to think it might have been startled or felt protective. I hope everything works out for you and you don't get a lot of aggravation over it.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

If only all of this could have been gotten on tape! (not for legal purposes, but rather because it'd be interesting to see just what happened to cause your dog to bite)

Anyway, not knowing your dog personally I can't say anything about your situation.

However, certain states have laws that state a dog is not to be faulted if the owner can prove the bite was provoked... and if it were me in your shoes I would DEFINITELY fight on my dog's behalf that the bite was provoked and I would call the retired cop in as a witness! Someone putting their hand in a dogs face like that (especially without asking permission to pet the dog) is just wrong. 

Anyway, I am always hyper-vigilant when I'm out with my dogs. I have quite a few 'overly' friendly ones... but I still don't let people come up and pet them without addressing me and asking first! 

More than likely, if the guy calls AC you'll get an officer stopping by and questioning you about the events -- tell them like they happened, and tell him you have a witness who is a retired cop (and if you have the number, def. pass that along). Hopefully absolutely nothing will come of this, but I think worse case scenario will be an in home quarantine


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## bigworm36 (May 3, 2009)

I appreciate everyones response. Like I said I have been taking him places with me with no issues at all since he was little. He is protective but would never go after someone just out of plain aggression. I do work with very good trainers that work with other german shephereds. I have even past temperament testing with him. People come up to me all the time to pet him and I just say very nicely he is protective and I would rather you not. I have had people comming up to pet him without asking but always tell them ahead to not pet him, I just was not able to do the same in this situation in time. He was on leash with little slack very close to me just laying. Its actually weird cause I asked the retired police guy if I could sit next to him at the table and that I was bringing my GS with me and he was said no problem and told him ahead of me bringing him out that he could not pet him.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

he's 2 1/2, he is falling into adulthood and may very well be getting protective of you, i would see if you can work on that part of it with your trainers.....


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## Thrakk (Sep 1, 2011)

bigworm36 said:


> I appreciate everyones response. Like I said I have been taking him places with me with no issues at all since he was little. He is protective but would never go after someone just out of plain aggression. I do work with very good trainers that work with other german shephereds. I have even past temperament testing with him. People come up to me all the time to pet him and I just say very nicely he is protective and I would rather you not. I have had people comming up to pet him without asking but always tell them ahead to not pet him, I just was not able to do the same in this situation in time. He was on leash with little slack very close to me just laying. Its actually weird cause I asked the retired police guy if I could sit next to him at the table and that I was bringing my GS with me and he was said no problem and told him ahead of me bringing him out that he could not pet him.


Sorry but to me, this is a red flag. You tell people "he's protective and I'd rather not you pet him"? 

That shows you know he's got some issues. It seems to contradict previous posts. While I agree, no dog can be trusted 100% well trained and socialized GSD's can be petted and don't get startled easily. No problem if you don't want people petting them - but as a warning against protective behavior, you might want to reconsider taking him everywhere with you. 

The GSD temperament standard is being able to tell when protection is needed and when interaction is harmless. 

Sad story. I've been there. All GSD's are protective - but it seems unusual for a dog to bite under the circumstances described here.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Good luck with this situation. According to your description it looks like your dog was startled and made a fear reaction. If he were aggressive you would know it by now. I agree with the advice above that says you have to be totally aware of your dog wherever you take him. You need to know before the dog does that someone is approaching and how they are approaching in order to head them off or deflect unwanted movements. You should back off from taking him 'everywhere'. Only take him places where he has your total attention and control.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can't speak for all GSD's. there's many GSD's that aren't
protective, many.



Thrakk said:


> >>>> All GSD's are protective - <<<<
> 
> but it seems unusual for a dog to bite under the circumstances described here.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If you are telling people not to pet him and have been doing that since he was a puppy it doesn't particullarly surprise me what happened. If you want a dog for protection then he should be professionally for protection. If you want to take your dog in public then he should have been socialised and that means meeting strangers that are allowed to pet him. It will be more difficult now that he is over 2 yr.s old and has bitten someone. Most dogs not just GSD's have a natural protectiveness about them. GSD's and others a little more cautious but should be friendly.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Either way, if I had a "protective" dog I feared would bite so I had to warn people to not touch it, I would not be bringing it out in public.
Recently we took our Basset to a public outing. She did great except for people who lean forward towards her (adult men actually) and especially if they extend their arm - which is how people do when they want to pet a dog. Savvie didn't get aggressive but backed up and barked and we did exercises then with them turning sideways and crouching down and she did fine then. 
Anyway - at one point two little girls came running up out of the blue and practically threw themselves on her, hugging and kissing her. She loved it and licked their faces but I took her back to the car soon after because it just freaked me out how two little kids would simply come up and not even ask - I mean run up - and kiss and hug this dog they didn't even know. 
You almost bodyguards for your dog out there. And if not - then you need to be 100% sure your dog is not going to bite someone, a truly bombproof dog. Savvie loves kids, luckily.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

bigworm36 said:


> People come up to me all the time to pet him and I just say very nicely he is protective and I would rather you not.


Ah, so you've always had a feeling he might bite someone? If I were you I wouldn't be admitting this on the internet where anyone and everyone can read it; in the eyes of a shrewd lawyer, you've just admitted guilt. If you don't allow people to pet him because you fear he might bite, you shouldn't be taking him everywhere where people are, because this situation was just waiting to happen.

You might want to ask the mod to delete this thread, in order to protect yourself. By posting it you are opening yourself up to liability.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

bigworm36 said:


> A guy was walking behind me and stuck his hand out in front of my dog as he was walking...


I'd be proud of him !


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

The Packman said:


> I'd be proud of him !


Why would you be proud?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would like you to elaborate on the "protective" thing that you keep talking about...seems a bit like a red flag to me. IMO, GSD's should polietly ignore affection from strangers. They should not even be on the dog's radar. I do not want my dog "protecting" me when I am out and about unless I'm screaming for my life.

Now if you said "no, do not pet him because I want him to learn to ignore strangers in public" that would be one thing. But you keep talking about you not wanting people to pet him because of being protective. 

I too take my dogs out in public quite a bit. Happy hour at my local pub is pretty common. I always try to place my dogs in a place where they will not be pestered by people walking by....in a corner, behind me along a wall...in between two close tables. I never want my dog to feel like they are in an uncomfortable position with a stranger, nor do I want the stranger to feel they are in an uncomfortable position with my dog.

I can understand you being upset at first--although it obviously did not win you any friends with the guy the dog bit. But a dog has no place biting a stranger for simply putting their hand out, either.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

The Packman said:


> I'd be proud of him !


 
What is wrong with yoU??


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I would like you to elaborate on the "protective" thing that you keep talking about...seems a bit like a red flag to me. IMO, GSD's should polietly ignore affection from strangers. They should not even be on the dog's radar. I do not want my dog "protecting" me when I am out and about unless I'm screaming for my life.
> 
> Now if you said "no, do not pet him because I want him to learn to ignore strangers in public" that would be one thing. But you keep talking about you not wanting people to pet him because of being protective.
> 
> ...


What SHE ^^^ said. If you are taking your dog in public places, he
should be able to easily cope with people approaching. No person should
have to worry about any dog that is present or nearby in a public place.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Exactly what Thraak, GSDElSA, and Paddy are zeroing in on. All of my dogs are protective, and most of my males go to police departments, BUT there is no problem with a reasonable person coming up to them and petting them. 
Does your dog not have the ability to discern whether a normal person talking to you or asking to pet them is nonthreatening? 
For you to be taking this dog all these places in public as you wrote, the first thing I would ensure from a puppy is that he is petteble OR we are working on getting him comfortable with being petted. You can't control people's actions in public, but being protective has nothing to do with not being able to be petted.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah this dog was definately not provoked, and the post about fighting and proving that in court would be one tough thing to do. If you have your dog out in public, I would think that it is a very good and stable dog. I wouldn't expect there to be any issues if I came up to pet him/her. Is it wrong for the person not to ask? Yes, but there are a lot of people that don't ask. Its really only dog people that will ask, and we're like 10% of the general population.

The rest of the posters are absolutely right about protection. Your dog should get protective when there is a dangerous situation at hand. He should sense it from you, when you get worried. I have a feeling he might sense you getting worried anytime someone comes up to pet him because there was an incident (maybe not a bite) before which is why you won't let people pet him now. He senses that you tense up and then he tenses up and gets protective. This might be the issue at hand, and if you learn to calm down he will stay calm and be able to accept friendly strangers. Just a thought.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

fuzzybunny said:


> Why would you be proud?


fuzzyb you musta missed this part of my post:


bigworm36 said:


> A guy was walking behind me and stuck his hand out in front of my dog as he was walking by...


You really need me to explain why I would be proud of Elly May, if she bit someone walking up to my back with their hand extended and they didn't communicate with me first. 

You musta missed this part of bigworms post also:



bigworm36 said:


> My dog has never bit anyone and after they left I had two people come up to me saying that my dog or I did not do anything wrong, one being a retired police officer sitting right next to me outside. They gave me there information and said to call them if I need anything.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Well of course none of us, except the OP was there to see what actually happened to see the dog bite someone - but, from what I have heard it appears that perhaps the dog overreacted with a bite (and we don't know what kind of bite - or at least if it was explained I missed it). I.E. All out attack bite or a defensive nip bite????

Was the hand just a friendly attempt at a pat on the head?, for example, or more like a fist coming at someone - which could be easily interpreted as a hostile act. Yes, even a dog should have a little threat discrimination ability.

That is what would concern me a little with the dog.

After all, a normal person wouldn't usually take a swing or a kick at a stranger coming up to him on the street and offering a hand to him as a handshake although you might exclaim "What do you want?" or just avoid him with a quick move.

Yet in some different environments in some locations, one would be much more suspicious and quicker to react with violence (i.e. equivalent to a dog bite). 

Probably same with a dog!


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## yuricamp (Mar 13, 2011)

The man was WRONG for reaching out and touching before asking permission! He may have startled the dog. I think it was appropriate. He was an idiot for putting his hand on a stranger’s dog. It was VERY presumptuous. I wouldn’t want someone coming up behind me and touching one of my kids. It would have been more polite to not approach froma blind spot. If the dog got up and tore into him and she had to pull him off, then I would say "red flag”. But if he just turned around and snapped his hand, that’s like a slap saying “get the heck off me!"


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

as i said in an earlier post, i have a fear bitter, weak nerved dog..........who is now 3 years old. dispite my attempts to socialize through outtings, classes and ongoing training he is still unpredictable around people. i have worked long and hard and studied him in situations i know most of his triggers and keep everything under threshold. i continue to train in training groups with him 2 times a week and do tracking with him. this is a dog who at one time took human eye contact as a threat. i have made alot of progress with him, mainly me learning how to read him and how to control situations. i do take him out in public, he can sit nicely while i talk with someone. i always instruct people to ignore him and he's fine, if they try to pet him reach out to him and he doesn't know them, or sometimes even if he does know them, he might growl or crouch down. i only work on conditioning with my training people, people who know what i am doing and can go along with things. this dog will probably never be capable of having people get touchy feely with him, but because of all my hard work and determination he can go out in public on leash with my leadership and Obedience training. if i think someone is going to approach him or if someone asks me if they can pet him i say "sorry we are training, he's supposed to be paying attention to me" i do always have to pay attention to inviroment and whats going on around us because i don't want to set him up to fail. its a huge responsibility owning a dog like this, but with training and leadership i don't have to hide him away from the world. the training and constant conditioning will be a life long project..............if i did not know how to handle him properly in public i would not set him up like that. i have some great training people to work with which i am thankful for, and my suggestion would be for you to get your dog evaluated and get some professional help..........


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

The Packman said:


> You really need me to explain why I would be proud of Elly May, if she bit someone walking up to my back with their hand extended and they didn't communicate with me first.
> :


Yes. That is what is wrong with the breed today...people who you who think it is perfectly acceptable to bite a stranger making a completely innocent movement.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Yes. That is what is wrong with the breed today...people who you who think it is perfectly acceptable to bite a stranger making a completely innocent movement.


:thumbup:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Yes. That is what is wrong with the breed today...people who you who think it is perfectly acceptable to bite a stranger making a completely innocent movement.


:thumbup:


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

*A bite is a bite is a bite is a bite.*
It does not matter why the dog bit. You are responsible & liable. It does not matter if the person did not ask "permission" to pet the dog, it does not matter if the person snuck up behind you. It will not matter what excuse you come up with any bite could lead to the dog being euthanized PERIOD.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

There's nothing wrong with having your dog wear a basket muzzle in public. It's not cruel or a punishment. And they are very inexpensive.

Google


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> No person should have to worry about any dog that is present or nearby in a public place.


:thumbup:


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

A Dog Owner's Legal Defenses

The owner may be able to avoid liability if the injured person:

provoked the injury from the dog
knowingly took the risk of being injured by the dog
was trespassing
was breaking the law, or
was unreasonably careless, and that carelessness contributed to the injury.

This info came from a dog law website. I'd say the man was careless in his behavior for reaching out to pet a dog that was unknown to him, and without asking permission.


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## dvsdevelopment (Jul 17, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A Dog Owner's Legal Defenses
> 
> The owner may be able to avoid liability if the injured person:
> 
> ...


But it doesn't say careless. It says unreasonably careless. I don't think its unreasonable to assume a dog out in public is not going to bite. In fact, I would guess that most people would agree to some extent that if a dog is out in public, at a store or whatnot, it is a friendly dog. I also don't feel that putting a hand out is unreasonably careless. That's what most people are taught to do. He didn't touch the dog or run up and grab it. Let's face it, the dog was most likely startled and he bit. The man was not unreasonably careless.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

dvsdevelopment said:


> But it doesn't say careless. It says unreasonably careless. I don't think its unreasonable to assume a dog out in public is not going to bite. In fact, I would guess that most people would agree to some extent that if a dog is out in public, at a store or whatnot, it is a friendly dog. I also don't feel that putting a hand out is unreasonably careless. That's what most people are taught to do. He didn't touch the dog or run up and grab it. Let's face it, the dog was most likely startled and he bit. The man was not unreasonably careless.


I think the man was more than unreasonably, I think he was extremely careless. Most people teach their children not to pet a dog without asking the owners permission first. My 7 year old daughters girl scout troop leader was teaching the troop this at the last meeting. Everyone knows that you need to ask first. We are taught this from childhood, just like look both ways before you cross the street or you may get ran over.Only ONCE have I had someone pet my dog and it was at the pet store without permission, and I let him know that he shouldn't do that without asking first. Everyone else has always asked first.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah and if you study any amount of law "unreasonable" is anything you wouldn't expect a regular person not to do. In your mind (a dog person) you wouldn't come up to a strange dog and pet it. But for the rest of the world, if your dog is out in public, the presumption is that it is a safe dog. It is very fair to assume (as many people with reactive dogs will tell you) that children and adults will come up to your dog without warning when you are out in public.

To equate this to a human reaction would be if someone gently touched you on the shoulder and you just turned around and slugged them in the face. If you believe this is a reasonable reaction, then I feel bad for the next guy that accidently bumps you when you are out somewhere.

And anytime you start making statements like "most people" I question your information. Sorry, but I was never taught this, and there are plenty of people that have no idea what dog etiquette is. You grew up around dogs and were taught this. I looked it up and the estimate is 40% of people own a dog. I think that's a little high, but if thats true than "most people" don't teach this kind of stuff to their kids.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

yuricamp said:


> The man was WRONG for reaching out and touching before asking permission! He may have startled the dog. I think it was appropriate. He was an idiot for putting his hand on a stranger’s dog. It was VERY presumptuous. I wouldn’t want someone coming up behind me and touching one of my kids. It would have been more polite to not approach froma blind spot. If the dog got up and tore into him and she had to pull him off, then I would say "red flag”. But if he just turned around and snapped his hand, that’s like a slap saying “get the heck off me!"


 
What would scare me if it were my dog would be the thought that it could easily have been a 5 yo child! Would my dog know the difference?

Or would you folks who think it was ok of the dog to have bitten the guy for trying to pet him also think it would be ok with him biting a young child? (Obviously not, I would think!)

For my dog, absolutely not - he has to be protective but also very discriminatingly intelligent enough to sum up the threat level and react appropriately. Generally some fierce barking would be quite enough of a defense reaction.

JMHO.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

This thread kind of reminds me of the innocent 4 year old girl that was mauled by a Dog Trainer's dog.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/164327-dog-mauls-4-year-old-mall.html

You do not want your dog to end up like that in the future. SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE.


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## dvsdevelopment (Jul 17, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Yeah and if you study any amount of law "unreasonable" is anything you wouldn't expect a regular person not to do. In your mind (a dog person) you wouldn't come up to a strange dog and pet it. But for the rest of the world, if your dog is out in public, the presumption is that it is a safe dog. It is very fair to assume (as many people with reactive dogs will tell you) that children and adults will come up to your dog without warning when you are out in public.
> 
> To equate this to a human reaction would be if someone gently touched you on the shoulder and you just turned around and slugged them in the face. If you believe this is a reasonable reaction, then I feel bad for the next guy that accidently bumps you when you are out somewhere.
> 
> And anytime you start making statements like "most people" I question your information. Sorry, but I was never taught this, and there are plenty of people that have no idea what dog etiquette is. You grew up around dogs and were taught this. I looked it up and the estimate is 40% of people own a dog. I think that's ar little high, but if thats true than "most people" don't teach this kind of stuff to their kids.


Bingo


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When Cyra was in SAR training we did a demo. AFTER the kids saw a bitedog dog its thing (and this was a Malinois who was too over the top, chewy, and would not out-he was a police K9) the kids rushed us when we did our SAR demo. You would THINK that after that the parents would be cautious.

Kids were everywhere and grabbing every part of her body. And you could tell she was not too happy but she looked at me and knew I was doing all I could to clear them off. Never a snarl. 

I always control kids now - make them line up - have backup. But you cant fix stupid. I am also putting hardware cloth in my crate vents on the window side so fingers cant go into the crate - never an issue but why risk it.

I know you want a dog that will get real and protect if there is a REAL threat -- they are not Goldens or Labs! But this does not sound like one, but Every bite makes it that much harder for the rest of us who want to work our dogs in the real world with some places outright banning GSDs. I am surprised Lowes lets you in after the little dog incident a few weeks (months?) ago.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have been trying to be good and keep my opinionated self out of this thread. 

I crate my dogs in my vehicle so that no one can reach an hand in and get bitten. That is as far as I will go though. Covering vent holes so that someone cannot squeeze their fingers inside my crate inside my locked car (windows down) can't justify that. At some point you have to believe that the law will be in your favor. And if the law awards someone for putting a hand inside a crate that is inside a locked car, then the law is an . You have to draw the line somewhere.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Actually my other reason is to keep a paw from slipping through the bars if there is sudden braking. Had that happen once in a wire crate when I parked on a steep hill. I figure it can't hurt to add another layer of due dilgence. I have seen people reach into cars to pet dogs. Stupid yes, law on my side, probably.......

Conversely I have nice dogs, solid dogs, and dont walk down the street with them muzzled.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs are never muzzled, unless I ask them to at the vet because they are going to do something that will hurt. But a dog in their own car, might feel the need to protect themselves from a stranger reaching in. In a crate they cannot run away, they cannot get away, they are cornered. If they bite a finger reaching through a crate grate, I am not going to lose sleep over, but I will be really ticked at the individual. In fact, I think that someone who does something like that should be charged with criminal trespassing. If someone does that to a police dog, they will be charged.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I have been trying to be good and keep my opinionated self out of this thread.
> 
> I crate my dogs in my vehicle so that no one can reach an hand in and get bitten. That is as far as I will go though. Covering vent holes so that someone cannot squeeze their fingers inside my crate inside my locked car (windows down) can't justify that. At some point you have to believe that the law will be in your favor. And if the law awards someone for putting a hand inside a crate that is inside a locked car, then the law is an . You have to draw the line somewhere.


 
Agreed about the car with someone reaching a hand into your private property (your car) and that is a LOT different than a dog walking down a public street and biting someone who reachs a hand out to pet them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> he has to be protective but also very discriminatingly intelligent enough to sum up the threat level and react appropriately.


You've summed up the reason I love this breed so much and will likely always have a GSD!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

dvsdevelopment said:


> Bingo


lol, you were the first person who made a "most people" statement, and I was answering you back with one, so Bingo to you as well.

martemchik-the girl scout troop leader doesn't have a dog, and never has. She was simply teaching her troop about dog safety. 40% of the population may be dog owners (and this is questionable info) but that doesn't mean that the other 60% is not intelligent enough to know not to pet a strange dog, and for those with children, to not teach their children how to be safe around unknown dogs.

The OP said that his dog had never bitten anyone before. Remember as I was informed in another thread concerning a dog that killed another one, we domesticated dogs, but inside they are pack animals, relatives of the wolf at heart. You must be careful around dogs especially ones you don't know, they don't come with a guarantee.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The problem is...there are way too many dogs out there that can't discriminate between the threat level. And a lot of owners think when their dog is going off and barking, there is a threat, even when the dog does this no matter who walks by or in. Just from spending months on the forum I have realized it usually takes a lot of training to get a dog to that point of being able to understand who is dangerous and who isn't.

My dog is very aloof and not at either extreme. But thinking about the extremes...a very friendly dog that thinks everyone is a friend, and a very fearsome/protective dog that thinks everyone is an enemy. I would prefer the former rather than the latter. That dog is going to be much easier to handle, and is never going to get you or itself in trouble by biting someone. Now, I completely understand that this isn't the "breed standard" but I'm just talking extremes here.

As to the other 60% not being intelligent enough. A reasonable person doesn't have to be intelligent, I learned that exact phrase in law, one of the few I remember. 

About the car thing...if someone reaches into your car I think that would most definately be considered unreasonable. But lately you might still be on the hook if you don't have a warning label of some sort on it. Think of the lady that burned herself on coffee at McDonalds and because the cup didn't say "caution HOT!!!" she won millions of dollars. So I suggest putting a sticker on the vehicle, something to the affects of "dogs inside, caution" because as we all know, crazy, barking dogs inside a mini van don't always scare people away.


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## dvsdevelopment (Jul 17, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> lol, you were the first person who made a "most people" statement, and I was answering you back with one, so Bingo to you as well.
> 
> martemchik-the girl scout troop leader doesn't have a dog, and never has. She was simply teaching her troop about dog safety. 40% of the population may be dog owners (and this is questionable info) but that doesn't mean that the other 60% is not intelligent enough to know not to pet a strange dog, and for those with children, to not teach their children how to be safe around unknown dogs.
> 
> The OP said that his dog had never bitten anyone before. Remember as I was informed in another thread concerning a dog that killed another one, we domesticated dogs, but inside they are pack animals, relatives of the wolf at heart. You must be careful around dogs especially ones you don't know, they don't come with a guarantee.


I have no problem with a "most people" statement, have a talk with the guy that responded. Bingo only because he put my thoughts and lame attempt at a reply into an understandable post.

The problem is your assumption is based off your biased experiences. You are a dog person. I am also a dog person so I completely understand and get your point of view. And I agree with it: people can be stupid and do stupid things. I'm just saying if you step back and throw your opinion out you should be able to see that this stupid action is not unreasonable in the eyes of the law. What is unreasonable is that he got bit. A person should have a reasonable expectation of safety with regards to dogs brought into the public voluntarily.

Now, I don't like anyone petting my dogs without asking. They've never bit anyone while out and about but if they did I'd be beside myself.

In my personal opinion, you pet a dog you assume the risks that come along with it. But that's not how the law works.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Another person might say, you own a dog, you assume the risk. 

I think in this day an age we have to fool-proof our dogs. If that means socialization at nauseum, rock solid nerves, strict management, or simply restricting the access between the general public and your dog, I think that we have to protect our dogs. 

A man burgalizing a home that was being constructed was able to sue and win because they left an unfinished stairwell in the house that the theif was able to fall into and break his leg. When the system is full of injustice, we have to be doubly careful our dogs are never being subjected to that system.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

being proactive as a dog owner nowdays should be a top priority............also i think if you have a risky dog and want to go out in public and socialize etc, having a vest that says "working dog, don't pet" is helpful, this kinda lets people know without you having to say, don't pet my dog, he might bite........


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

selzer said:


> And if the law awards someone for putting a hand inside a crate that is inside a locked car, then the law is an . You have to draw the line somewhere.


What consolation is that knowledge going to be while you are watching your dog be euthanized because someone DID stick their hand in and your dog DID bite them and the  law sided with the injured party, determined your dog was 'dangerous' and forced you to euthanize them??

I'm not going to risk my dogs life over whether or not the law is right or just.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

debbiebrown said:


> being proactive as a dog owner nowdays should be a top priority............also i think if you have a risky dog and want to go out in public and socialize etc, having a vest that says "working dog, don't pet" is helpful, this kinda lets people know without you having to say, don't pet my dog, he might bite........


Or perhaps a vest that says "psycho dog, don't pet" whatever helps to save your dog from biting and being PTS.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Another person might say, you own a dog, you assume the risk.


Exactly!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> What consolation is that knowledge going to be while you are watching your dog be euthanized because someone DID stick their hand in and your dog DID bite them and the  law sided with the injured party, determined your dog was 'dangerous' and forced you to euthanize them??
> 
> I'm not going to risk my dogs life over whether or not the law is right or just.


It would be impossible for a child to manage to get a finger inside the airline crates in my locked car. I do leave them in the car in crates. Sorry, but there is little else I can do. I travel to get to training or a show, and make it worth the trip by showing two. 

If an adult, someone 12 or over managed to get a finger into my airline crate and got bit, oh well. They will not get euthanized for that. It would not be a mauling. It would hardly be a bite. It would be easier for the dogs to be poisoned. I have to risk that. I do not always have someone to help with the crates and the dogs. So I cannot always bring the dog in or over. We do what we can. 

For the most part I agree about not risking my dog's life over wheteher or not the law is right or just, but we do every day. If your dog is running loose in your house, and a burglar breaks in, he can sue you. Will he win? Probably not. But maybe with the right judge, the same kind of a judge that might order a dog euthanized that bit someone who stuck their finger into a locked car and through the dog's crate grate. 

Somewhere you have to draw a line, else your dog will wear a muzzle 24/7.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

"How To Keep Your Dog Safe 101" when i have Sam in the car with me doing errands around town i keep the windows rolled down a crack not enough for some dummy to stick there finger through and also lock my doors, Why, because i know Sam would probably bite if someone were to do that...........and if its to hot for him to be in the car, i leave him home....thinking ahead and knowing exactly what your dog could be capable of is going to keep you and them safe.........


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Benny is the same age as the op dog and I have also taken him as many places as possible since he was a pup. He is very good in most situations but does have some fear reactivity with people who approach him cautiously. He is also naturally protective. He also does not like people staring at him, see that as a threat. We have never had an incident where he has bitten anyone, but I know that I have to be very vigilant when he is with me and aware of what he is feeling. We have to protect our protectors! 

People do really stupid things. I have had people come up to Benny, channeling their inner Cesar) completely ignoring the warning signs that he is not comfortable, and saying"Dogs always like me" and trying to pet him!

One thing that might help is getting your dog a vest that says "do not pet"
Ready to Wear


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is amazing how stupid people can be!!!! Both JQP ***and*** dog owners!!!!

My crates are back from the rear door of my Surburban....One dog is extremely crate/vehicle possessive....no one in their right mind would go near her crate...people have petted her and fussed over her to have her bark at them as soon as she is in the vehicle....it is NOT inappropriate! I used to have a Santa Fe and the crates were up against the rear hatch, and I know that is not the ideal set up for many reasons - I like that my crates are 3 feet away from the rear door now. One on the back seat faces the rear door, and my most social dog rides there when she is crated in the vehicle.


Basha can sit on the front seat, hang her head out the window and ASK people to pet her as they walk by...sigh, I found that out last week while traveling - two different places, people were petting her and fussing over her while I paid for gas!!! This girly is ABSOLUTELY rock solid and if you smile at her at an AKC OB show and are sitting down, she will climb into your lap to cuddle! It is almost embarrassing to have a GSD that social .....but don't try to even open the screen door! She WILL let you know it is not a good idea!!!

The bottom line is that you HAVE to assume all people you meet out in public are stupid. You have to know if your dog is solid enough to interact with strangers or children....if one of mine would even lift a lip to show a tooth in public - he/she would NOT be given that treat again - you take them to Petsmart - you better be prepared that kids are going to run up to them....if you don't think that is safe - DO NOT TAKE THEM OUT!!!!

If it is a puppy - and you have any inkling that it is NOT solid - socialize the heck out of them, condition their behavior and NEVER take your attention off that dog!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree fully with your post. I wish I had an extra three inches to back my crates up, but I don't. 

I have had a Doberman owner, stand there and deliberately stare my dog down while it was in a crate in my car. When the dog snarled at her, she said "didn't like that did you?" I was standing there, at a show, distracted, thinking about going in the ring, and came back to earth to hear that exchange, and asked her what the heck did she do that for? She wanted to see what the dog would do. 

I like my dogs better than most people. So I have to protect them. If there is a question. I roll the windows all down, and shut the hatch. But if it is hot. the hatch has to be open too. We show and train in the summer months, sometimes its hot. This is not just like taking the dog to the grocery store and the bank because they will enjoy the ride. If it is hot, I do leave them home. When it's a show, we do everything possible to keep the dogs comfortable.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

selzer why on earth do people do this do our dogs i see it hapen more often than i should? they need a good lashing i can't believe they did that in front of u tho and said that was the ruddest thing i have seen someone do good god!! lol u should said uwant to see what she will do? well lets let her off leash now and find out ok? keep that up hang on lol

I am very picky about who pets my dog and when they do pet her they have to do it a certain way, but if that person is clearly an experienced person i dont really watch them like someone who is a trainer or a experienced working dog owner i usually trust that theywont do stupid things so i let my guard down around them cause i feel they are smart capable people and know how to act. But when it comes to the general public they have to let my dog sniff them and i watch their eyes just ot make sure i am sick of dogs being blamed for human things its just not fair. So no one is going 2 pet my dog unless i think they are special but i still socialze take in public around hundreds of people 2 joggers actually told me how impressed they were with my dog cause i sometimes lt her off leash at this park and they jog by her doing laps 2 or 3 times they mind their own business and she totally ignores them so do bikers so some people are good. People in wheelchairs woman with baby strollars. But People will stare down dogs so hard it is just stupid and dangerous.


maybe we can put a big sign up everywhere saying common dog sense do not stare them in the eyes if u want to make friends? but that might make idiots do it more to more passive breeds to get a rise out of them


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wolfstraum said:


> Basha can sit on the front seat, hang her head out the window and ASK people to pet her as they walk by...sigh, I found that out last week while traveling - two different places, people were petting her and fussing over her while I paid for gas!!! This girly is ABSOLUTELY rock solid and if you smile at her at an AKC OB show and are sitting down, she will climb into your lap to cuddle! It is almost embarrassing to have a GSD that social .....


That is Keefer _exactly_! He is such a love sponge and he'll take it wherever he can get it. :wub: I don't mind it at all, but I can see how some people would prefer their GSD not be quite such a social butterfly, lol!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, I train with this person regularly -- not all of my dogs, but she has been in classes with many of them. And she is a Doberman owner. Dobermans can be big babies, they can also be schutzhund dogs, they do have a rep that is not all that positive, and even their owners will tell you that they are quick to react. They have much the same problems we have -- big formidable dogs. I never expected her to be baiting my dog, especially at a show, prior to my going in the ring. It actually shocked me.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I really want my dog to be oblivious to other people and dogs. We often have to work offlead in an urban situation with chained dogs, dogs slamming into fences, people out and about......and the only thing on his mind is work. Helicopter landing from 200 feet, doesnt even notice (I do, there he is called in and put on lead).

He even got bit on the nose (no blood) by a Shiba Inu which he completely blew off ...no fear, no agression. I just hope that is where we can get with the new puppy. To me that is where the dog should be. My female is not there; she is just fine around all people but EVERYTHING is a distraction to her. Other dogs, she has an edge with. Much Much Much nicer with him.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

wow your gsds really that social while in their cars? mine use to be ok when i got her but now she is starting to see the car as hers so doesnt want people strangers going near it anymore lol friends are good i only use ac and never leave her alone in a car unless its in winter or cold and the car is locked. She just barks tho to say she doesnt like them close to the window. its like shes saying "scat" or shoo vermin! lol


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Debbieg said:


> Benny is the same age as the op dog and I have also taken him as many places as possible since he was a pup. He is very good in most situations but does have some fear reactivity with people who approach him cautiously. He is also naturally protective. He also does not like people staring at him, see that as a threat. We have never had an incident where he has bitten anyone, but I know that I have to be very vigilant when he is with me and aware of what he is feeling. We have to protect our protectors!
> 
> People do really stupid things. I have had people come up to Benny, channeling their inner Cesar) completely ignoring the warning signs that he is not comfortable, and saying"Dogs always like me" and trying to pet him!
> 
> ...


 
I think that if a dog bites someone just for reaching out to pet him (and we didn't see how he actually did as i said above); then the owner has to decide ahead of time whether he is really safe to be in public as here we know that is likely to happen! Maybe even consider a muzzle till the dog is under better control/behavior, perhaps????

Some people and esp. children are always going to do stupid things to dogs they see in a public place! We know that. 

I have had kids come running up to my dogs and give them a hug - a public dog should not react aggressively to that with a child, I don't believe.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A person can take a less-than-well-socialized dog into public, but they have to head off children running toward them with outstretched arms. You cannot be oblivious to your dog's body language, view of the world, etc., and you got to get your dog out of harms way.


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## marcink31 (Aug 26, 2011)

Thrakk said:


> Sorry but to me, this is a red flag. You tell people "he's protective and I'd rather not you pet him"?
> 
> That shows you know he's got some issues. It seems to contradict previous posts. While I agree, no dog can be trusted 100% well trained and socialized GSD's can be petted and don't get startled easily. No problem if you don't want people petting them - but as a warning against protective behavior, you might want to reconsider taking him everywhere with you.
> 
> ...



completely agree you hit it right on the head. "Protective" seems like your just trying to justify to yourself his behavior. You say you take him everywhere but he is not good with people when they come close to him?


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