# Mas's senior ailments



## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

I have noticed something with Mas which has me concerned. Maybe someone has experienced this and can point me in the right direction. I will try to explain this the best I can: 

On occasion, but more commonly today, Mas will go into an abrupt sit like position, it is like he is dropping his back end to the ground. It is not the usual sit position where his butt is barley touching the ground, it’s almost like a scooting thing, only he does not scoot. He seems to have difficulty initially getting up, but he does. I do help him get up and he does it fairly quickly, I have also watched to see if can get up on his own and he does and then carries on walking. He has arthritis and has had muscle deterioration of his back legs, which we have build back up over the last 18 months. 

Here is a picture similar to the the position I am referring to:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Poor Mas!







This happens to Chama too except that all 4 of her legs go out from under her and she just splats on the floor. What you're seeing with Mas is very common for dogs with DM and weakness in the hind end. 

Do you have one of those special harnesses for him with the suitcase type handle? That would be worth getting. Chama wears a really nice regular harness with a suitcase handle and I use it to help her up and down hills and stairs when necessary. I also use it for picking her up when she splats on the ice too.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

there is probably more going on than just arthritis. i think we all can relate to something like this with our seniors. nerves get compressed in areas and can cause weird things like splayed legs standing, weird sitting positions, etc. spondylosis. cauda equine, disc problems all of those can cause weird placement of sitting, standing, etc.
has your guy been diagnosed with any of these? or is it just arthritic hip issues? does he get Adaquin? joint supplements, etc?
how old is he?

debbie


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Thanks Ruth, I really appreciate your reply. I forgot to add earlier that sometimes when I lift Mas’s tail he goes down fast. So something is connected there with his backend issues. I need to make an appointment this week for a cartrofen injection so I will have the vet check it out further. I am really petrified of Mas having DM or any other disease for that matter. I can’t stand this old age business, he has been considered a senior for almost 2 years now and I still can’t get used to it









I did buy a harness for Mas back in January after reading one of Jean’s posts. I searched for one like on handicapped pets but they were only available online, I didn’t want to wait and I have a hard time fitting Mas since is chest is so deep. I have a regular harness with the handle, probably like Chama’s

Debbie, I agree, I think that is is more than the arthritis. Mas will be 11 in April. He has not been diagnosed with anything else as of yet. I was just reading up on spondylosis and will check that out with the vet. He is getting medi-cam, though I was not giving it to him regularly, I will start now. He gets Nikken Joint daily and he just finished off his Sasha's Blend. I have decided to hold off on that for now. I will go back to the gluc/chon/msm that he was getting before. 

I have noticed that since I swtched him Orijen he is standing up much straighter (along with the great coat & eating much better)


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I answered this post only to discover I misread it and had to delete my initial response. When I looked at the picture I was looking at him being so pretty, not at the way he was sitting. 

Ringer does this sometimes, he sits with his back leg/s straight out - similar to what Mas is doing in the picturue. Usually he rights himself but not always, sometimes I have to help him stand up. I've always attributed it to his other problems he's having, disc problems, weakness in the rear, etc. It gets better for a while after he has his Bowen Therapy, but it's getting worse as time goes by.

Give Mas a hug!!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It is very difficult to watch all the changes as they age. Sometimes when Chama's legs go out from under her she just lies there for a second with a very confused look on her face. It's hard for me to see but she does seem to handle everything with aplomb.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ArycrestI answered this post only to discover I misread it and had to delete my initial response. When I looked at the picture I was looking at him being so pretty, not at the way he was sitting.


Mas sure is handsome, isn't he!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowIt is very difficult to watch all the changes as they age. Sometimes when Chama's legs go out from under her she just lies there for a second with a very confused look on her face. It's hard for me to see but she does seem to handle everything with aplomb.


I know what you mean. Growing old sucks, but like I always say, it's better than the alternative. It really hurts watching them age, seeing once virile animals having problems standing or placing their legs properly, etc. Like you say, they handle it with dignity. 

My old guys still misbehave by fence fighting with the dogs next door - in a way it's sad to watch them run in slow motion or kind of gimpy sometimes, but in a way I'm glad they feel good enough to do it. 

Everyday Ringer likes to play with his Cuz, SQUEEK SQUEEK SQUEEK - it drives me nuts - I usually go in the house to get away from the noise. He even enjoys playing fetch. I'm a terrible ball thrower so when I throw the Cuz it never goes very far and he's able to "run" over and get it. Sometimes he likes to play keep away and I pretend I can't catch him, of course when he was younger, I couldn't catch him when we were playing.

I'm just thankful everyday that I still have them, enjoy our time together.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Arycrest Give Mas a hug!!!


Done!









Ruth & Gayle you have both settled me a bit, this is yet another senior moment I am experiencing and knew that Mas's senior pals would come through. 

Gayle same thing happening here with Mas, he has been doing well with it, but it is becoming more common now. Our walks are ridiculously small, lucky for us there are several ways to walk around the block (which consists of 4-6 houses). Oh and tonight Mas did his usual "no fly zone" enforcement dance in the backyard when a bird fly by. I was happy to see it, considering there are times when he just watched them, but I see his body tensing up. And yes, I am most grateful that he is here with me.

Steph...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

You know, I look at the aging Barker Sisters and I see the young dogs, too. I remember bringing each of them home and how they reacted to the senior dog of the outfit. I remember how incredibly fast my eldest was in her youth. I remember their exhuberance and the joy they've brought me. I'll take those slow short walks. I'll drive 40 miles to ride 20 minutes. And I'll wonder what's next for us.

It's good deal.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would definitely add Adaquin to his regiman. its helped toby ALOT. any dog with arthritic conditions can benifit from it.

more than likely its one of the things i mentioned, which as i said most of them get eventually.

alternatives, good diet, supplements, etc, do help preserve things. 
moderate daily activity is so important for them, as with any arthritic condition basically its "move it or lose it" especially since they also loose muscle mass as they age.

debbie


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

also wanted to let you know that metacam is now in peoples form its called meloxicam. my vet calls in a prescription for me at walmart.
i get a 30 day supply for 4.00 .............metacam is expensive, so this is quite a savings. meloxicam comes in pill form as well.
your vet should be able to call this in for you.

debbie


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh Mas!!! I also was looking at his handsomeness and not the sit!

Nina has a very unladylike sit. My vet said it's an arthritis thing. She's got a tad of the spondylosis, one hip has arthritis and one knee does. I think it's like us when we get a little sore and shift positions to find one that may not look so nice, but feels good. 

How does the cartrophen work? I have heard it's great (not available in the US) but my bias is with Adequan and if THAT works it makes an amazing difference. After Kramer bloated he was off for over a month and started to sag a bit in the end. But back to normal now. 

Kramer does not sit at all anymore. It's stand or laying down. Every once in a while he'll go back into a sit but you can see it's not comfy. I think that could be-my guess-the spondylosis? He has a huge section fused. (he says, hey lady, I'm 15, what the heck do you want from me?) So I guess it's good that they can still sit? I was kind of suprised by the no sit thing...but again the Adequan is the thing I have been happiest with.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

no chiropractor, right? It really does sound spinal.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Debbie, the Metacam bottle says meloxicam right on it, so I will definately be asking Mas's vet for the 'human' version. Metacam is stupid expensive!

Jean, the cartrophen is great indeed. Same thing with Mas, starts to sag, then within 48 hours of the cartrophen he is fully up again. Is adequin the same as cartrophen?

Lisa, no he has not had any chiro. I will check into it. I really think there is more to this than just the arthritis. 

We have an appointment with the vet on Saturday, I will be sure to take my list of questions and concerns with me









A couple of weeks ago we were at the vet and I noticed Mas was walking very odd. It was like his front paws were flippers! He had both paws right up to his ankles on the ground, my eyes must of bulged out of my head when I saw that. I am very glad that I was in the vet's office when I noticed it, or it would have been another emerg run. Vet said that it is the arthritis moving into the front









I know I can't turn back time and have my punk pup back, actually don't really know that I would want to. All I want is for Mas to be pain free and happy, he has earned it and he certainly deserves it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

My cousins' chocolate lab had very severe arthritis. He flopped along like you describe, throwing one leg in front of the other. He was still happy as a clam though and given the chance would walk over to the neighbor's farm to get into the trash! 

I am now giving Chama this herbal mix called, "Get Up and Go." It is working well. Yesterday she was run over by a sled at the park and today was fine and has already taken two good walks. It's got tumeric and feverfew and cayenne and some other anti-inflammatory herbs in it.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> I am now giving Chama this herbal mix called, "Get Up and Go." It is working well. Yesterday she was run over by a sled at the park and today was fine and has already taken two good walks. It's got tumeric and feverfew and cayenne and some other anti-inflammatory herbs in it.


YIKES! Poor Chama, I had to read that twice









Ruth, I was going to ask you in my previous post about what alternative meds you would recommend to place the metacam? I just don't want to prolong any pain for Mas while I experiment with meds either. You think I can get the Get Up and Go here?


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

Debbie,
That metacam suggestion is terrific! I'm going to talk to my vet about doing that.

Has anyone tried PST therapy. Here's a little blurb on it:



> Quoteulsed Signal Therapy (PST) is a unique therapy that has been developed and patented in the United States to treat patients with arthritis, back and joint pain. PST is a non-invasive therapy that promotes new bone and cartilage growth. CRCG is excited to be able to offer this wonderful therapy that improves the quality of life for so many pets. We have one of only a very few PST machines in Colorado. More info on PST >>>
> 
> Geriatric Physical Therapy
> 
> ...


You have to take them 9 days in a row. The treatments have to be within 24 hours of each other (or at least more than 8 hours). We've tried the adequan and it had no effect on Max. I'm trying to find something to make him more comfortable without giving him more drugs. I'm willing to try this, but it's really expensive and I want to do some research before I go any further. Any input is greatly appreciated!

It is heartbreaking to see them age, but like so many of you, I'm grateful for every day I have.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

happy to spread the word about the Meloxicam. god knows its expensive enough keeping our seniors going! i am sure alot of vets don't spill the beans about this med because they retail the metacam and get a huge profit on it. thankfully my vet understands the financial side of being a pet owner.









GSD10,
adaquin is a shot they give for arthritic issues. its not a drug like the meloxicam, its a concentrated form of (glycosamine) given by the way of a shot its more effective, more concentrated. its been used on lame horses for years.
your vet should offer this, usually the techs can do it, and they don't charge an office visit. you can also be taught to do it yourself. its a muscle shot so if your not squeamish about administering shots its really not to bad. but, if you choose to do this (which i HIGHLY recommend), there is an initial loading dose every 5-7 days for the first month, then once a month.

debbie


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Kris,
keep us posted on the PST therapy. sounds interesting.

debbie


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSD10....... Is adequin the same as cartrophen?
> 
> Lisa, no he has not had any chiro. I will check into it. I really think there is more to this than just the arthritis. .....



Just for the folks in the US, carprofen=rimadyl, while cartrophen=injectible joint stuff, similar to adequan in application and purpose, but not the same stuff. When I had Indy at UC DAvis for a consult, the surgeon there thought that cartrophen was far superior to adequan. I don't know what that was based on. We never tried either.

If you have a chiro around that comes recommended, I really would give it a try.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i can only give my view on the Adaquin, as i have never tried the Cartrophen.
Lisa,
isn't the Cartrophen a med vs Adaquin that isn't a drug per say, ?

if GSD10 goes the chiro route, make sure this vet/chiro is qualified, meaning not just educated with some weekend workshops on the tecnique.
chiro can be very benificial, but, its nice to know exactly what your dealing with first. normal arthritic stuff, disc issues, etc. i am sure most qualified chiros would want to see x-rays so they have an idea what they are dealing with.

debbie


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I had to go look up the cartrophen -- not being available in the US, I'm not that familiar with it.

A couple of links:
http://www.arthritis.au.com/htm/vet_01.htm
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1830&S=1&SourceID=52

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Adequan.htm (links at the bottom)

It looks like cartrophen might be more synthetic, thus more like a drug? I always thought it was similar in action to adequan. Maybe that surgeon just like the synthetic stuff, cuz the more natural stuff just *couldn't* work as well?????


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i wonder if its like Prolo therapy. where an injection is made in the spinal disc to actually create inflammation?

debbie


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

One thing I do want to mention is that for pain management I use Tramadol for Nina (and Kramer now that he's gotten used to it). http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html Kramer is not getting SAMe (that was a very expensive experiment) anymore. 

I guess NSAIDS are supposed to take down the swelling. But when I had pain, I much preferred my pain killing pill than the anti-swelling pill. So I guess I am projecting but they seem okay with that.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebi wonder if its like Prolo therapy. where an injection is made in the spinal disc to actually create inflammation?
> 
> debbie


I thought it was used exactly like adequan, but different stuff. don't know though since it's only in the UK, Australia, and Canada (I think).


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebthere is an initial loading dose every 5-7 days for the first month, then once a month.
> debbie


This is also we did with the cartrophen when it was first introduced to Mas in August 2006. He as getting an injection every other month, however we will go back to giving them to him very 2 two weeks at this point and them maybe once per month when the weather gets better. 

Kris, that magnetic therapy thingy that you posted for Max a while back, how did that work? I use magnetic therapy on Mas and it has been very helpful. 

Mas has been back on the medicam since Saturday and there has already been a significant difference with his pain relief. He has not done the sudden sit thing since I started this post on Sunday when things were not going well for him. 

I will ask my vet if he does the chiro, he is skilled in alternative methods and I have full confidence in him if he does practice it.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Ok so Mas had his appointment today with the vet. I let the vet know about my concerns of spondylosis or DM. After hearing me go on and on about what I have been seeing and how Mas responds to his tail being touched, vet suggested acupuncture, Mas has had this before, however, vet was at a workshop yesterday and wanted to try something. He felt that is was associated with liver function and of course the degenerative arthritis we are dealing with. Well it worked like a HOT DOG







1 pin was placed on Mas's left foot. Vet saw a diference in his posture while we were there, and I took him for a walk around the parking lot afterwards and he did really well. Mas's tail has been off lately, almost 'rat' like, not the usual fluffy thick tail, the bone (or whatever that cartlidge thingy is) was thicker than it has been. Oh and the best part, I have not been able to lift Mas's tail beyond being level with his back, and even at that he immediately would go in the quick sit position. After the treatment I was able to hold it straight up in the air, opposite of where it should be, he didn't even flinch







.

Overall I am very happy and impressed. The vet had said that if it was indeed a liver function issue like he thought then we would see a difference almost immediatley, which we did. 

Lisa, I asked about Chiro, Mas's vet does not do it. If further intervention is needed I will ask his vet to recommend someone that does perform it.

So this is where we are today







I took this picture of Mas when we got home. He is standing up straighter than he has and his tail looks 'happy'


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Wow, what a great response. Sure sounds like your vet went to the right training at the right time. Those paw points can be dramatic. Next time you have your magnetic thingee, try it on his feet









Cool about the tail -- I often guage how Max is doing by his tail.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Ruby,

That is great news! Did you vet recommend anything for liver support?


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Ruth, ahh umm ya no! OMG I was going a mile a mintue with questions and referring to my list. At one point it crossed my mind to ask him about the liver, but I didn't go back to it. I was just so stunned to see what was happening before my eye. I think at one point he may have said something, but it escapes me. Is there natural remedies you would recommend for the liver support? Oh and I had asked earlier about the Pain Be Gone (I think that's what you called it) that you mentioned you are giving Chama. Oh I just looked...it's the Get Up and Go, can I get it here? 

Lisa...MODERATOR!!!!







Congrats!!!! 

I am actually holding the palm magnet hostage until I get the magnetic bed that they keep promising me is "on it's way"








So I will try that tonight. I have been do the pressure point work that you had posted about months ago. Mas will only tolerate it for short bits, but I try to get it in when he lets me.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Liver support: Milk thistle and dandelion. I like the tincture from Animals Apawthecary but I'm sure you can find something made by a Canadian company. Lisa has some other liver support that she likes but I can't remember what it is. 

The Get Up and Go is sold by Only Natural Pet so you'd have to order it on line. It's working really well though! Did you see the pics of Chama in the deep snow at the park today?!?!?!?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSD10Lisa...MODERATOR!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! And I just discovered I now have an _edit_ link for everyone's posts in this forum, so I can make you all say bad things.... Bwa haa haa haa..... <okay, just kidding, I *really* wouldn't do that>



> Quote:I am actually holding the palm magnet hostage until I get the magnetic bed that they keep promising me is "on it's way"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you haven't already, try the palm magnet on the tail, and all the feet, just for fun. I can't believe that you don't have the bed yet!!

The liver support product I recommend is by Country Life and it's called Liver Support Factors (LSF). I get it at http://www.vitacost.com, but I don't know where it's available in Canada. Milk Thistle and Dandelion are pretty standard too. The folks on the tick list have overall had better luck with the LSF.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT And I just discovered I now have an _edit_ link for everyone's posts in this forum, so I can make you all say bad things.... Bwa haa haa haa..... <okay, just kidding, I *really* wouldn't do that>












Could I just use regular human grade milk thistle? There are lots of hippie-dippie shops around here so I will have no problem finding a suitable brand. I have already found a great supply at the local health food market. Does the milk thistle come with the dandelions or is that a separate type? 

I have scrolled the magnet on Mas's feet/tail before, but I tend to concentrate on his back/spine & hips, will spend more time on the feet and tail now. 

Ya can you believe it about the bed









Ruth I checked out the site for the Get Up and Go, awesome stuff there. How often are you giving that to Chama? As needed or on a regular basis? Does it replace stuff like medicam?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I give it to her every night. Right now she needs it that often for sure with the damp, cold weather and the extra work walking in the snow. I don't know anything about metacam. I do still give her a jumbo dose of Joint Health (gluc/chondroiton/msm) and 2000mg of Ester C per day.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

GSD10, you definitely can just use Milk Thistle. *If* Mas tends to have allergies to pollens, be careful because it is a weed. You might want to start giving half a dose, or every other day to make sure that all is going well, and then work up to a human or near human dose for Mas. With Indy, she can handle small doses, but what would be her standard dose of MT gives her soft stools. Again, Indy is *not* typical!!

The metacam is a pain killer, and depending on how effective the Get up and Go is, then hopefully it will replace the metacam, or at least greatly reduce it's usage.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Make sure it's not in alcohol though-the thistle. 

Wait-how did you come about the liver thing? Was it just a thought or bloodwork or what?

I would wonder about removing the Metacam and not replacing it with a NSAID but with another pain killer. I see no reason for a dog to be uncomfortable after a certain age (not that young dogs should be in pain) and use Adequan, then supplements but also things for pain relief. 

Metacam: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1752
This may be about the same article: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/meloxicam.html
The insert: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/Documents/N141213pi.pdf

Those articles have information about NSAIDs and the liver. I didn't read anything else-but liver stuff sticks out to me.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The Get up and Go is for pain and it is an anti-inflammatory.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Again ladies...THANK YOU! 

Jean, that was a great site for the Metacam, I will have to go back and check out the others. Oh don't you worry, I will not let Mas be in any unnecessary pain if I can help it. If no other alternative method works, he stays on the metacam. I just like to go the natural route with him where I can.

The liver thing came up when I described what I was seeing with Mas to his vet. He suggested the liver function being an issue, and lack of blood flow to his tail (as I described what I had noticed in Mas's tail) So vet suggested we try the acupuncture, as he had learned some new info in a workshop he had just attended. When Mas responded immediately to the needle, vet felt that the liver area was the source of his issues. Tell you the truth, I need to take a tape recorder in there with me. I asked so many questions, I an't even remember everything now. But it come to me in little flashes









He said to keep track of how he does (like I already don't follow him with a clip board...just kidding I do not







) Vet called today to check in on how he was. He actually went looney-tunes for a flock of crows on our afternoon walk. Usually he postures and lets out a deep bark today he had me spinning in a circle!

I will be keeping a close eye on him for sure and doing the 'tail' test often. 

Ruth, so you think the Get Up and Go could replace the metacam?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Blood flow to the tail? Gingko biloba perhaps? I don't see it used for dogs often, but Dr. Clemmons does have it in his DM protocol.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

My 13 year old huskie had severe arthritis and was on Metacam. He had to wear booties to get around the house. I had to carry him outside to pee - the poop would randomly drop out of his butt all over the house. 

Then I read about Dasuquin. After a few days he didn't need the booties. After a week he didn't need the Metacam and he started pooping outside again. He crossed the bridge last January, but his last couple of months were very happy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.petstruly.com/3282.html has information on Dasuquin. 

When was his last bloodwork? I think I danced around his liver without asking that.


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Mas had bloodwork done last in December 2007. I asked the vet if it was neccesary to do it again and he said that at this time it was not.


LJ'sMom: glad to hear your dear huskie had a peaceful few months


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

> Quote: Kris,
> keep us posted on the PST therapy. sounds interesting.


Max was evaluated last weekend by the physical therapist. She wants to try hydrotherapy first before the PST. She actually thought he was in pretty good shape except for dragging that foot. We have lots of exercises to do at home, including massage and heat pad. She also said that he's not in any extreme pain. A little arthritis in the right front elbow in addition to the problem in his back. His left side is good though. She said building up his strength is the key. We walk every day, but she said that's not enough.

Debbie, just sent you a PM - don't know why I didn't just post here..







My vet is calling in a prescription for Meloxicam. He's going to start Max on 1/2 tablet per day, but I didn't ask what strength and I haven't picked up the prescription yet. He was a little concerned about getting the dosage right. Any idea on the correct dosage for a dog? Max is 98 lbs. and is currently on 2 100-mg Rimadyl per day. Thanks..


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