# Schutzhund dog = working dog?



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Would a dog trained in schutzhund (BH or IPO 1-2) or even a dog in training, be considered a working dog? I always considered schutzhund a sport rather than being a working dog activity.
I suppose the definition depends on what one means by "working".. I consider working dogs to be dogs that are actively "working" on a regular basis, helper dogs, tracking dogs, hunting dogs etc.

Are IPO titles considered "working dog" titles?

Would you call your IPO dog a working dog even though it doesn't work in the traditional "working" sense?


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

pfitzpa1 said:


> *Are IPO titles considered "working dog" titles*?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I would say that because of the working ability required, and IPO title would be considered a working title. I also think that while the dog is currently active in the sport he would be considered a working dog. However, once you stop regularly training and competing in the sport, your dog ceases to be a working dog.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the term 'working dog' applies to a dog that is actually certified in working and does so professionally on a regular basis. 
I don't think a dog training for titles in IPO or other sports are working dogs but dogs doing sports. 
A working dog is just that, a dog that is basically treated as an employee and lives a very structured lifestyle with a regimented schedule and routine. 

But I know many in sport treat their dogs differently than a companion, so have a different mindset and consider their dog a worker.
I train almost daily but would never consider my dog a 'working' dog, but a companion who enjoys training in the sport I chose to _work _him in!


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

under the sv system isn't ipo/schuts offically designated a working title??


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are working dogs that live as pets on their down time. There are also working dogs that train in SchH. There are handlers that use SchH as a foundation for their working dogs. So, yes, in many ways SchH is still work even if we as handlers aren't using these dogs in any official capacity.


----------



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

x11 said:


> under the sv system isn't ipo/schuts offically designated a working title??


I believe they are called International Utility Dog titles, per IPO rulebook, BH is not considered a utility dog title (well it's not worded as such). So I take Utility to mean Working.

I guess the question is, is the dog (technically) a working dog while training for the title or is it working dog after the title? i.e a BH dog is not classed as a working dog until they reach IPO1?

Everywhere I search IPO, is considered a dog sport. However I guess, like professional athletes, active participation in sport is considered working.

So does, as robk suggests, a dog cease to become a working dog as soon as the dog stops competing in IPO? (assuming the dog is not participating in any other working role).

On a similar note, can a dog be a "working dog" without any official title. Would a farmer that has a dog that performs some sort of working role on the farm, yet has had no official titling, have what is classed a working dog?

I would say yes to the farmers dog, yet I don't feel it appropriate in my case to call my IPO dog in training a working dog.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i agree on the farmers dog scenario - in that theme most real working dogs would be without title or pedigree in a range of venues from LGD, assistance dog, commercial yard dog, dogs finding wounded game for money, professional ratters, pesticide detection, invasive species detection, hunting, those dogs that clear birds from aircraft landing zones, security dog, crowd control.....the nameless, public faceless, paperless, untitled, unpapered dogs who's owners prolly don't know titling systems or seen a pedigree or even know the internet exists.


----------



## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

The most popular working dog in the world is the German Shepherd, the German Shepherd as a working dog was founded on the principles of IPO titling and breeding.

A dog that is proficient in IPO shows that it has qualities required as a utility dog for general work (not necessarily suited for absolutely any job, but certainly a good number of jobs).

We train, title and breed dogs for IPO and Work. Police Dog Handlers come to us to buy dogs, for training and advice. They are open to IPO and see many benefits to it.

I consider them working dogs.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what was first, the GSD or IPO titling?



Vislor said:


> The most popular working dog in the world is the German Shepherd,
> 
> >>>> the German Shepherd as a working dog was founded on the principles of IPO titling and breeding. <<<<
> 
> ...


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think the interpretation of what a working dog is can be very individual. I personally don't think of any sports competition titles as 'work', but that's MY interpretation. Schutzhund was developed as a test .. not as the end product for a working dog. 'shrug' again, MY interpretation and I'm sure others don't feel that way .. and they have a right to their opinion.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Anyone can define any word any way they wish, however, language is a medium of communication so there is general social agreement on the meaning of terms so understanding between disparate people can occur.

SchH or IPO is by common agreement called working titles because they were originally devised as tests before breeding a dog. A dog that passes the tests presumably has the genetics that can produce puppies that can be worked in the future in different jobs such as police dog, SAR dog, MWD, etc. These aforementioned dogs are considered working dogs because they do have jobs that many people would consider a job. So GSDs in general are also called working dogs because they belong to a breed called a working breed, so named because many dogs from this breed end up working. The specific dog may be a pet but because it is from a working breed it is called a working dog. 

Also, when people train for SchH or IPO they commonly say, "I am working my dog." It is akin to saying when you go to the gym that you are "working out" even when you are not doing a job.

Nowadays of course, SchH can become a sport where people do not necessarily use it as a breed test but to score more points than other people and get trophies for it. However, due to its origin as a breed test for a working dog breed, people still refer to it as a working title and to training in it as working a dog.


----------



## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

robk said:


> I would say that because of the working ability required, and IPO title would be considered a working title. I also think that while the dog is currently active in the sport he would be considered a working dog. However, once you stop regularly training and competing in the sport, your dog ceases to be a working dog.


Not necessarily. Some organizations (SAR, Therapy dog) do not allow a dog that has ever trained in Schutzhund/IPO. 

You don't want a dog searching for a person and then doing a bark and hold on him.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

FlyAway said:


> Not necessarily. Some organizations (SAR, Therapy dog) do not allow a dog that has ever trained in Schutzhund/IPO.
> 
> You don't want a dog searching for a person and then doing a bark and hold on him.



A dog, properly worked in Schutzhund, will never hold&bark at a subject. However, the IRO uses a "hold&bark" on subjects at a certain distance, as indication. 

A German Shepherd is a "Gebrauchshund" which is a Utility/Working Dog. They should always be bred as a working dog and the IPO is a working title. 

@Vislor: I absolutely agree with you. I believe there is a difference with Europeans viewing the German Shepherd as what it is and in the US.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

FlyAway said:


> You don't want a dog searching for a person and then doing a bark and hold on him.


Not always true. Some teams/countries use a bark and hold instead of a re-find. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I think the term 'working dog' applies to a dog that is actually certified in working and does so professionally on a regular basis.
> 
> ...
> 
> I train almost daily but would never consider my dog a 'working' dog, but a companion who enjoys training in the sport I chose to _work _him in!


I agree completely with this. I feel that the term 'working dog' is completely subjective and has no rules for application. Even though I work Pimg in agility, even though we train often, even though we compete as often as I can financially afford- I do not call her a working dog. To me, a working dog is one who is worked day or night, rain or shine, who actually goes out and does a job as a "professional" on a daily basis. For me- SAR, "real" herding dogs (like- farm dogs), and police dogs are what I'd apply the term "working dog" to. Those who just train in a sport of choice, regardless of how often they train, are not working dogs in my book. They are just dogs who get worked regularly.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> Not always true. Some teams/countries use a bark and hold instead of a re-find.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The IRO does you actually have choice whether you do the B&H or the re-find. It's done in Disaster as well.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Disaster only uses a Bark indication. At least in FEMA. Can't speak for other countries. 

All of my SAR dogs, wilderness and FEMA have done a bark indication. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I dont think that schh dogs are working dogs, but I think that ipo titles are "working" titles if that makes sense.......


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Meaning is dependent on context.

Example one: you have a pet GSD, your friend has a pet Chihuahua. It's understandable when you refer to your GSD as a working dog because it is a member of a working dog breed, your friend's dog does not.

Example two: you have a GSD with a schutzhund title or is "working" toward a title; your friend has a pet GSD. It is understandable to refer to your GSD as a working dog and your friend's GSD as a pet dog.

Example three: you have a GSD with a schutzhund title or is "working" toward a title; your friend has a police dog. It is understandable to refer to your dog as a sports dog and your friend's dog as a working dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ocean said:


> Meaning is dependent on context.
> 
> Example one: you have a pet GSD, your friend has a pet Chihuahua. It's understandable when you refer to your GSD as a working dog because it is a member of a working dog breed, your friend's dog does not.
> 
> ...


THIS is the best explanation yet!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Ocean said:


> Meaning is dependent on context.
> 
> Example one: you have a pet GSD, your friend has a pet Chihuahua. It's understandable when you refer to your GSD as a working dog because it is a member of a working dog breed, your friend's dog does not.
> 
> ...


 I like this approach


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I like to think of this as more of a "what if you asked an average person" question rather than a bunch of dog people that know what Schutzhund, IPO, other sports are.

Your average person would probably consider working dogs...dogs that do work out in the real world. So your military dogs, LE dogs, service dogs, SAR dogs, ect. If you're just training to title for "fun" so to speak and just to reach a certain level of gratification (getting the title) and proving that all the work you've put in has paid off, I don't think most people would consider that work...they'd consider it a hobby.

That said...I think any dog, training on a consistent basis, with an end goal in mind, is a working dog (especially if you compare them to pet dogs that stop training after an 8 week session at petsmart). So be it Schutzhund, agility, AKC sports, UKC sports, herding (without the NEED to move sheep around), or anything else...the dog is a working dog.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I think people get too caught up in wording. 

My sport dogs are working dogs. They are professional athletes. So their job is to compete. Dogs don't know the difference between going out to train for 8 hours a day multiple days a week or going and patrolling a street for 8 hours a day multiple days a week.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Ocean said:


> Meaning is dependent on context.
> 
> Example one: you have a pet GSD, your friend has a pet Chihuahua. It's understandable when you refer to your GSD as a working dog because it is a member of a working dog breed, your friend's dog does not.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Excellent points

Personally, I don't care if you call my dog a working dog or not. Wording only matters in the eye of the beholder


----------



## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I think Ocean's explanation is a good one. I also think that, generally, people like to think they have "working dogs." Just my opinion, but a working dog is, well, a working dog - law enforcement, SAR, service dog, etc. 

To me, there is a service aspect to a dog being a working dog; a working dog provides a service to human kind in the job it performs that goes beyond the enjoyment, personal satisfaction, etc. of the trainer. As such, I don't view a schutzhund dog as a working dog, any more than I view an agility dog, herding competitor, nosework competitor, or dog that simply participates in training on a consistent basis as a working dog. Now participation in schutzhund may provide better insight than a lot of other sports as to whether a dog _could be _a working dog, but at the end of the day schutzhund is a sport and potential to do work does not equal actual work.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My opinion for what it is worth is that schutzhund, obedience, rally, agility, tracking trialing, herding trialing, dock diving -- all sports. These would be like sport-dogs. Their owner handlers would be weekend-warriers -- that is their hobby. Just different levels and commitment. 

Police dogs, SAR dogs, Service dogs, Herding dogs, War dogs -- these are working dogs. They and their handlers go out and work, most of them daily, and all day. These are dogs trained specifically to perform tasks every day to accomplish something beyond just training for the sake of training or testing breeding stock.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

I think what is a bit unfortunate whenever schutzhund is discussed is that we commonly and at the first instance refer to it as a sport.

It would be helpful to the breed if we try to remember what schutzhund was originally and solely for, and that was not to be a sport. It was and at times, still is and can be a breed test. The breed test that is mainly responsible for keeping the GSD an authentic working dog breed. The 3 phases were specifically developed to test many many traits that are considered relevant and necessary for a utility dog. There are the obvious ones like scenting in the tracking phase; obedience to a handler's commands in obedience; and at the very least the ability to target a bite, and ideally to fight instead of flight in protection. All 3 phases also test the dog's nerve strength and stability; ability to focus and handle distraction, and to handle pressure; intensity and duration of drives; self-control of drives; relationship with the handler; ability to work as a team member; basic athleticism, etc., etc. All traits that would enable a a dog with further training to do work in many kinds of dog jobs including family pet and protector.

It's like the difference between looking at a dog from the perspective of a breeder or from the perspective of a dog owner. Looking at it as a sport, SchH is into the minutiae of how to score maximum points and is a competition of training skills. As a breed test, scores do not matter, it is the observable qualities of a dog's behavior that are drawn out by the process so the experienced eye can make inferences about the dog's possible genetic makeup that it can bequeath to its puppies. It is the systematic work of keeping a working breed a working breed.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Ocean said:


> I think what is a bit unfortunate whenever schutzhund is discussed is that we commonly and at the first instance refer to it as a sport.
> 
> It would be helpful to the breed if we try to remember what schutzhund was originally and solely for, and that was not to be a sport. It was and at times, still is and can be a breed test. The breed test that is mainly responsible for keeping the GSD an authentic working dog breed. The 3 phases were specifically developed to test many many traits that are considered relevant and necessary for a utility dog. There are the obvious ones like scenting in the tracking phase; obedience to a handler's commands in obedience; and at the very least the ability to target a bite, and ideally to fight instead of flight in protection. All 3 phases also test the dog's nerve strength and stability; ability to focus and handle distraction, and to handle pressure; intensity and duration of drives; self-control of drives; relationship with the handler; ability to work as a team member; basic athleticism, etc., etc.
> 
> It's like the difference between looking at a dog from the perspective of a breeder or from the perspective of a dog owner. Looking at it as a sport, SchH is into the minutiae of how to score maximum points and is a competition of training skills. As a breed test, scores do not matter, it is the observable qualities of a dog's behavior that are drawn out by the process so the experienced eye can make inferences about the dog's possible genetic makeup that it can bequeath to its puppies. It is the systematic work of keeping a working breed a working breed.


:thumbup:

You're on a role today.

I also wish I was only a weekend warrior. Spending 30 plus hours a week on training fields (not just schH) plus training at home and other places. I spend more time training than I do at work.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ocean said:


> I think what is a bit unfortunate whenever schutzhund is discussed is that we commonly and at the first instance refer to it as a sport.
> 
> It would be helpful to the breed if we try to remember what schutzhund was originally and solely for, and that was not to be a sport. It was and at times, still is and can be a breed test. The breed test that is mainly responsible for keeping the GSD an authentic working dog breed. The 3 phases were specifically developed to test many many traits that are considered relevant and necessary for a utility dog. There are the obvious ones like scenting in the tracking phase; obedience to a handler's commands in obedience; and at the very least the ability to target a bite, and ideally to fight instead of flight in protection. All 3 phases also test the dog's nerve strength and stability; ability to focus and handle distraction, and to handle pressure; intensity and duration of drives; self-control of drives; relationship with the handler; ability to work as a team member; basic athleticism, etc., etc. All traits that would enable a a dog with further training to do work in many kinds of dog jobs including family pet and protector.
> 
> It's like the difference between looking at a dog from the perspective of a breeder or from the perspective of a dog owner. Looking at it as a sport, SchH is into the minutiae of how to score maximum points and is a competition of training skills. As a breed test, scores do not matter, it is the observable qualities of a dog's behavior that are drawn out by the process so the experienced eye can make inferences about the dog's possible genetic makeup that it can bequeath to its puppies. It is the systematic work of keeping a working breed a working breed.


You just said exactly what I tried to say in the other topic, with just much better words.


----------



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Ocean said:


> I think what is a bit unfortunate whenever schutzhund is discussed is that we commonly and at the first instance refer to it as a sport.
> 
> It would be helpful to the breed if we try to remember what schutzhund was originally and solely for, and that was not to be a sport. It was and at times, still is and can be a breed test. The breed test that is mainly responsible for keeping the GSD an authentic working dog breed. The 3 phases were specifically developed to test many many traits that are considered relevant and necessary for a utility dog. There are the obvious ones like scenting in the tracking phase; obedience to a handler's commands in obedience; and at the very least the ability to target a bite, and ideally to fight instead of flight in protection. All 3 phases also test the dog's nerve strength and stability; ability to focus and handle distraction, and to handle pressure; intensity and duration of drives; self-control of drives; relationship with the handler; ability to work as a team member; basic athleticism, etc., etc. All traits that would enable a a dog with further training to do work in many kinds of dog jobs including family pet and protector.
> 
> It's like the difference between looking at a dog from the perspective of a breeder or from the perspective of a dog owner. Looking at it as a sport, SchH is into the minutiae of how to score maximum points and is a competition of training skills. As a breed test, scores do not matter, it is the observable qualities of a dog's behavior that are drawn out by the process so the experienced eye can make inferences about the dog's possible genetic makeup that it can bequeath to its puppies. It is the systematic work of keeping a working breed a working breed.


Nicely put! That makes a lot of sense to me.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

:dogsledding::dogsledding:

Me gots working dogs!!!

:doggieplayball:You gots pet dog! 

:gsdsit: Me dog does schutzhund sitz! 

:gsdbeggin: Yous dogs does tricks.

:tongue: My dog better than your dog cause it is a working dog! 



Kind of funny, the dog is dead now, but his handler came up and did a demo for us. And I asked him if his dog was a working line dog or a show line dog. He said there were Shutzhund dogs, and there were police dogs. The police dogs were the working dogs, the schutzhund dogs were the show dogs. (His dog was a West German Show Line Dog, a working police dog. A working dog.)


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What about the dog that just models doing stacks on benches and other beautiful locations during hikes...is that a "working" dog? But of course!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me the distinction depends on the overall picture of why the dog was obtained, how it is raised and kept, what the expectations are, and the importance placed on top physical condition. I don't care if my fellow SchH, flyball, or agility people call their dogs "working dogs" because in most cases I think they basically are. Maybe "canine athletes" is a more correct term but I just let the individual dogs' training regimen and achievements speak for themselves.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> :dogsledding::dogsledding:
> 
> Me gots working dogs!!!
> 
> ...


 
imo the show dog people and the modern bite sports peeps have got more in common with each other politically than they would prolly like to admit to. it's all kinda prima donna look at me, look at me stuff.

agility, herding, SAR....etc imo are a completely different culture, still active and high training standards as bite sports but less about i'm so fine, i embody what the breed is supposed to be you other guys are just fillers.

the *actual* working dogs and there handlers couldn't care less what anyone calls them and are the anonymous silent ones that we must never discuss in polite company.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x11 said:


> imo the show dog people and the modern bite sports peeps have got more in common with each other politically than they would prolly like to admit to. it's all kinda prima donna look at me, look at me stuff.
> 
> agility, herding, SAR....etc imo are a completely different culture, still active and high training standards as bite sports but less about i'm so fine, i embody what the breed is supposed to be you other guys are just fillers.
> 
> the *actual* working dogs and there handlers couldn't care less what anyone calls them and are the anonymous silent ones that we must never discuss in polite company.


I have to disagree. If that was the case we wouldn't have thousands upon thousands of police k9 handlers have their pictures floating around on Facebook. 

They are put on a pedestal with their dogs and literally celebrated as Heroes. So are Military Working Dogs and SAR. There handlers are very proud people and honestly, why not? Let them be proud of what they do. It's not easy to get into one of these jobs. 

Also, Agility and SAR? 
Due to this Forum I had very high expectation for my old SAR team. The only training that was done, when i first joined was ONCE A MONTH. 
The head trainer didn't have a clue of what he was doing and there was no obedience whatsoever. There was another German on the team. Meanwhile she is my best friend and she's got a lot of knowledge about SAR and Schutzhund. Together we turned that team around but we had a lot of uphill battles to fight. Plus the drama between the teams didn't make it easier and because of politics we basically had to quit in the end and there is a lot of politics going on. 

Doesn't mean we stop working our dogs. We are still training together and once my knee has been taken care off I am going to join another team. 

But to throw Agility into this and dismiss Schutzhund is a bunch of baloney. Agility is MORE of a sport than Schutzhund was ever intended to be.


----------



## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Schutzhund dog = Training dog. A dog in training.

Theres no need to weez the juice. Your working for titles, your working on training, your working in class.

Is a k9 who has gone through all of its training and gets washed out at the end or never graduates to a job, also a working dog. He is dog that worked on training, but has no working experience.

Does a nurse who has completed his schooling for his phd, but was unable or choose not to become a doctor, a doctor?

Schutzhund is a sport a training method and was/is a tool to evaluate the possibility of working ability.

Working ability can/should only be determined by working. That way it stays clean and pure. Is and is not. Muddling up the distinction only serves the isnt and never the is. Why do that, besides your ego. Not downing you because you want the title of working, but uping those that deserve it. imo. 

JD


----------



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Seer said:


> Schutzhund dog = Training dog. A dog in training.
> 
> Theres no need to weez the juice. Your working for titles, your working on training, your working in class.
> 
> ...


Nice clean perspective. Thanks!


----------

