# SuperDog Training Program?



## HobNob

Has anyone heard of this program? Apparently there are many locations throughout the states. We are in San Antonio and there happens to be a SuperDog program here. 

Here is the website: SUPERDOG San Antonio Dog Trainers Trainers in Texas.

I want to get your opinions about their program and philosophy.

Thanks!


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## Cassidy's Mom

Ugh. Did you notice that in all that verbiage about their "method" there's not a single thing to tell you exactly what that method IS? That alone would have me giving it a pass.


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## HobNob

I did notice that. SuperDog is a program based out of California and I guess trainers can become certified or qualified to offer the program. Once such trainer is in San Antonio. But really her business is called "A Better Dog Training" and here is the website: San Antonio Texas Dog Obedience Training San Antonio TX Dog Training School San Antonio Texas Dog Training Classes

I spoke with the owner today and I felt really good about what she had to say. WAY better than the last trainer I talked to. This lady's approach reminds me a little of the Leerburg guy.


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## szariksdad

I think the only small nit is they have the dog heeling behind them and not shoulder at side of leg which could be a problem if you want to later do competition ob or something like that. Which is where I have learned to have the dog. When you spoke to the trained what was there style of obedience training? was it marker training or was it using collar corrections or other methods.


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## gsdraven

I'm always wary about training franchises. The ones that I have seen around here (which is not the one you listed) are usually people who have some experience training their pets and use the franchise name as a quick way to make a buck doing what they think is fun and just fall back on the "theory" provided to them as part of the franchise. My question would be do they have the freedom (and experience) to train how they want or are they required to follow protocol (like PetSmart trainers)?



HobNob said:


> I spoke with the owner today and I felt really good about what she had to say. WAY better than the last trainer I talked to.


Your comfort level with the trainer and their methods is going to be the determining factor. Remember to always follow your instincts and if a method doesn't seem right for you or your dog, it probably isn't. You have to be willing to stick up for your dog if something doesn't feel right.



HobNob said:


> This lady's approach reminds me a little of the Leerburg guy.


Which one? The Leerburg website has videos of different trainers on there. Knowing some of the issues you are having, I'm not sure that some of his methods are ones that I'd want to use but it's not my dog.

What is your goal with training and how do you want to go about doing it? Do you believe in alpha training and dominating your dog?  Or do you want to take a mostly positive approach? These are all things you need to know before settling on a trainer. Have you talked with past students and their experiences? I'd want to see if I could find ones other then the references the place gives because obviously they aren't going to provide you with a bad reference. Can you post on your local Craigslists to see if students that have used the training facility will tell you their experiences?


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## Amtrak Conductor

Yes I have and I find it a very good program. I cant speak for anywhere else as I have herd mixed reviews. I have been using SuperDog here in Roseville with Dave, the owner of the whole franchise. Dave considers himself a behaviorlist more than a trainer and for Maxx, it was much needed. His method was to use physocoligy, collor correctoin and lots of praise. Doesn't belive in treats and clickers or other bribes. At first I thought it was a little harsh, but Maxx has responded well and really is a much happier dog as a result. Again, I can't speak for other franchises, but I would HIGHLY recomend Dave, the owner of SuperDog when other methods have failed.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Treats and clickers are not bribes.


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## HobNob

gsdraven said:


> I'm always wary about training franchises. The ones that I have seen around here (which is not the one you listed) are usually people who have some experience training their pets and use the franchise name as a quick way to make a buck doing what they think is fun and just fall back on the "theory" provided to them as part of the franchise. My question would be do they have the freedom (and experience) to train how they want or are they required to follow protocol (like PetSmart trainers)?


I don't think that is the case here. When she answered the phone she actually gave the name of her personal business, A Better Dog Training. I think the two share the same philosophy and use similar methods.




gsdraven said:


> Which one? The Leerburg website has videos of different trainers on there. Knowing some of the issues you are having, I'm not sure that some of his methods are ones that I'd want to use but it's not my dog.)


I asked her how she would classify her training methods in regards to "old school" methods and the newer "motivational" methods. She said she falls right in the middle of those two. She said she uses some corrections, I think mainly leash corrections, but says hands are for petting and affections and doesn't advise to do a lot of physical correcting with the hands. At the same time, she does not over use treats. She does not overlook the bad and just keep rewarding the good. She wants to dog to understand what it shouldn't do as well as what it should do. She emphasizes relationship with the dog and using that as a means to train the dog.




gsdraven said:


> What is your goal with training and how do you want to go about doing it? Do you believe in alpha training and dominating your dog? Or do you want to take a mostly positive approach? These are all things you need to know before settling on a trainer. Have you talked with past students and their experiences? I'd want to see if I could find ones other then the references the place gives because obviously they aren't going to provide you with a bad reference. Can you post on your local Craigslists to see if students that have used the training facility will tell you their experiences?


Our primary goal is to build a much better relationship with Duke, for him to trust us and recognize us as his leaders, and for him to follow our direction inside and outside our home. I personally believe in pack structure and leadership (or some might call it "alpha"). I do think a positive approach is preferable to old school "I'm in charge" methods. But I think some trainers who use a positive, motivational method tend to ignore the things dogs do incorrectly and just try to reinforce the good and hope the bad will work itself out. I like that this trainer says her methods fall in the middle of the spectrum...that's actually what I was hoping for.


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## Cassidy's Mom

HobNob said:


> But I think some trainers who use a positive, motivational method tend to ignore the things dogs do incorrectly and just try to reinforce the good and hope the bad will work itself out.


Some may do that, but the way it SHOULD be done is not to simply ignore the bad stuff and hope it goes away, but to set your dog up for success by managing their environment to minimize their opportunities to practice bad behavior in the first place. If they're not practicing the bad stuff so much, they're also not going to be reinforced for it and it's not going to become ingrained behavior. And if they _are_ being consistently reinforced for the good stuff, the bad will eventually extinguish. But that's not the same as simply ignoring your dog when they're being bad and letting them get away with it.


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## HobNob

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Some may do that, but the way it SHOULD be done is not to simply ignore the bad stuff and hope it goes away, but to set your dog up for success by managing their environment to minimize their opportunities to practice bad behavior in the first place. If they're not practicing the bad stuff so much, they're also not going to be reinforced for it and it's not going to become ingrained behavior. And if they _are_ being consistently reinforced for the good stuff, the bad will eventually extinguish. But that's not the same as simply ignoring your dog when they're being bad and letting them get away with it.


But wouldn't you say this does not teach the dog not to do what it shouldn't do? When I say "ignore" the bad I don't mean letting the dog get away with it. I mean centering the training around what the dog should do and not using any training methods to work with the dog on not doing what it shouldn't do. Do you think simply not reinforcing the "bad" teaches the dog that it shouldn't do the "bad"?


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## Emoore

HobNob said:


> But wouldn't you say this does not teach the dog not to do what it shouldn't do? When I say "ignore" the bad I don't mean letting the dog get away with it. I mean centering the training around what the dog should do and not using any training methods to work with the dog on not doing what it shouldn't do. Do you think simply not reinforcing the "bad" teaches the dog that it shouldn't do the "bad"?


Motivational training should always teach an alternative, positive behavior that is incompatible with the unwanted behavior. For example, if you have a dog that jumps on guests, an aversive "old school" technique would be to step on his toes or bop him on the nose. A motivational positive technique would be to teach him to sit quietly on his butt and only pay attention when he's sitting. (I taught Kopper not to jump in about 10 minutes this way, BTW) He can't jump on people if he's sitting. If the unwanted behavior is dog aggression, an aversive trainer would punish the aggression; a motivational trainer would teach the dog to pay attention to the handler, look him/her in the eye, and focus totally on them. You can't be aggressive towards another dog if you're focusing totally on your human.

Motivational training doesn't ignore bad behaviors, it teaches positive ones that extinguish the unwanted behavior.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Emoore explained it well, and to that I'd just add that in addition to reinforcing the kind of behavior I want, I do let my dogs know when they're doing something I don't want. That can vary from a simple no reward marker such as "ah ah" or "oops" and the lack of a reward to something stronger if that's necessary. But the more you reinforce the good and teach incompatible behaviors to avoid the bad, the less it's going to be necessary for a stronger kind of correction. 

For me, it's really a fundamental question of training philosophy - does my dog learn faster when I tell them what I DO want from them, or when I tell them what I DON'T want from them? For any single thing I expect from them there is always going to be only one right answer - they're either sitting when I tell them to sit or they're not. They're either laying down when I tell them to down or they're not. They're either looking at me when I say watch or they're not. They're either walking nicely on leash or they're not. But for anything that I ask from them there are numerous wrong things they could be doing instead of that one right thing. Is it helpful for them to know when they didn't get it right? Sure, often it is and I'll let them know that. But isn't it even more helpful to know whey they did it exactly right, so that they can make the appropriate association between the cue, either verbal or hand signal, and the behavior that I want when I use that cue? I could basically keep telling them "no, not that, no, not that, no, not that..... over and over again, or I can tell them "YES!!!! that is EXACTLY what I want, good job!" 

I would much rather teach my dogs to heel by showing them what heel means by rewarding them for being in the correct position (which is very specific, whatever criteria you want to assign to the word), than to constantly have to correct them for being anywhere but heel position. If I correct them for "not heel", how do they know if they're too far ahead or too far behind, or too far to the side? They just know that they're wrong. :shrug: But if every time they're exactly where I want them to be and I click and treat, they understand exactly what than means - this is the good place to be, the place where good stuff happens. There's no ambiguity. 

The more I can say yes and the less I have to say no, the faster learning will take place. And also, the more motivated my dogs will be to stay engaged with me and want to learn because it's FUN! If I'm constantly having to say no and correcting them, the less likely they'll want to keep trying, to keep guessing, because there are negative consequences to guessing wrong. At some point when I know that they really do KNOW the right thing (and in order for that to happen I have to be sure that a command has been fully generalized to a variety of circumstances and around a variety of distractions) and are willfully disobeying, then corrections are fair and warranted.


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## HobNob

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Emoore explained it well, and to that I'd just add that in addition to reinforcing the kind of behavior I want, I do let my dogs know when they're doing something I don't want. That can vary from a simple no reward marker such as "ah ah" or "oops" and the lack of a reward to something stronger if that's necessary. But the more you reinforce the good and teach incompatible behaviors to avoid the bad, the less it's going to be necessary for a stronger kind of correction.
> 
> For me, it's really a fundamental question of training philosophy - does my dog learn faster when I tell them what I DO want from them, or when I tell them what I DON'T want from them? For any single thing I expect from them there is always going to be only one right answer - they're either sitting when I tell them to sit or they're not. They're either laying down when I tell them to down or they're not. They're either looking at me when I say watch or they're not. They're either walking nicely on leash or they're not. But for anything that I ask from them there are numerous wrong things they could be doing instead of that one right thing. Is it helpful for them to know when they didn't get it right? Sure, often it is and I'll let them know that. But isn't it even more helpful to know whey they did it exactly right, so that they can make the appropriate association between the cue, either verbal or hand signal, and the behavior that I want when I use that cue? I could basically keep telling them "no, not that, no, not that, no, not that..... over and over again, or I can tell them "YES!!!! that is EXACTLY what I want, good job!"
> 
> I would much rather teach my dogs to heel by showing them what heel means by rewarding them for being in the correct position (which is very specific, whatever criteria you want to assign to the word), than to constantly have to correct them for being anywhere but heel position. If I correct them for "not heel", how do they know if they're too far ahead or too far behind, or too far to the side? They just know that they're wrong. :shrug: But if every time they're exactly where I want them to be and I click and treat, they understand exactly what than means - this is the good place to be, the place where good stuff happens. There's no ambiguity.
> 
> The more I can say yes and the less I have to say no, the faster learning will take place. And also, the more motivated my dogs will be to stay engaged with me and want to learn because it's FUN! If I'm constantly having to say no and correcting them, the less likely they'll want to keep trying, to keep guessing, because there are negative consequences to guessing wrong. At some point when I know that they really do KNOW the right thing (and in order for that to happen I have to be sure that a command has been fully generalized to a variety of circumstances and around a variety of distractions) and are willfully disobeying, then corrections are fair and warranted.


I pretty much agree with all of this. And this is along the lines of the feel I got from the above mentioned trainer when I talked to her. She doesn't so much use treats all the time to mark good behavior, but she does use them some. She doesn't focus on correcting the bad all the time. She will use corrections sometimes if they are needed. 

I brought up ignoring the "bad" because some of the literature I have read suggests that mand of your typical "motivational" training classes, such as those at PetSmart, tend to just over-treat the good behaviors and not teach what to do in response to incorrect behaviors. Some literature suggests this can be problematic later, which I can understand.


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## HobNob

Emoore said:


> Motivational training doesn't ignore bad behaviors, it teaches positive ones that extinguish the unwanted behavior.


I think there is plenty of training that goes on that is "motivational" in nature that ignores bad behavior.


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## Cassidy's Mom

HobNob said:


> I brought up ignoring the "bad" because some of the literature I have read suggests that mand of your typical "motivational" training classes, such as those at PetSmart, tend to just over-treat the good behaviors and not teach what to do in response to incorrect behaviors. Some literature suggests this can be problematic later, which I can understand.


I think if you look around the board you'll find that most people don't think much of PetSmart "trainers", and that they aren't really your "typical" motivational training class.


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## Emoore

HobNob said:


> I think there is plenty of training that goes on that is "motivational" in nature that ignores bad behavior.


There's a lot of bad training going on out there, probably more than good training.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Emoore said:


> There's a lot of bad training going on out there, probably more than good training.


^What she said! :rofl:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

HobNob said:


> I think there is plenty of training that goes on that is "motivational" in nature that ignores bad behavior.


Every single little thing you do with your dog is training. If you show the dog what you want, reward them (toy, treat, praise) when they do it, and do this in your home all the time, training classes are just icing on the cake where you get feedback and learn to do more. 

You don't need to be overbearing or alpha, you just need to be firm and kind, and smarter than the dog (as my parents always told me when I couldn't get my Beagle to do anything). When the dog knows what you expect and understands it, they perform. 

You don't have to be 100% positive but the rate of learning seems to increase when being motivational.

ETA - just went back through and looked at old posts - does the rescue have any recommended trainers? Also - do we know for sure if his issues are more fear based or what is really going on with him? It is difficult to tell without seeing a dog because "bravado" often masks an insecure, fearful dog.


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## HobNob

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> ETA - just went back through and looked at old posts - does the rescue have any recommended trainers? Also - do we know for sure if his issues are more fear based or what is really going on with him? It is difficult to tell without seeing a dog because "bravado" often masks an insecure, fearful dog.


I got two trainer recommendations from people at the rescue. One of them did not return my e-mail or voicemail. The other I spoke to on the phone but was not pleased with what I heard and decided to keep looking.

No, we honestly don't know exactly what is motivating Duke's behaviors. Sometimes I think it is fear or anxiety. Other times I think it is lack of leadership on our part and Duke assumes the role. I'm hoping the trainer can help clear this up for us once she meets Duke and observes him and talks to us.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I would take him to a behaviorist then first, before taking him to a trainer. 

With trainers, you have this "if you only have a hammer" idea in a lot of cases. If they think of dogs in terms of dominance, then that's what their solution is going to be. 

You want to have his behavior assessed before training. 

Kind of like kids with a learning disability - if you don't have them tested, and don't know they are dyslexic, then teaching them is a much more difficult task than if you know what is happening in their head, and can then utilize the very best techniques for that particular issue. 

International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)
Animal Behavior Society Web Site
Behavioral Medicine - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences
PETFAX Behavioral Consultation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

May be resources. 

Regardless of cause, NILIF can really help - and it can be both fear, anxiety and leadership. Of all dogs, to me, a fearful dog needs leadership more than a balanced dog, even one with dominant tendencies. 

It is the way in which the leadership is presented to the dog - does your leader tamp your fear of others by making you more fearful of them (so now the dog fears your reaction more than the fearful stimulus), or does your leader tamp your fear of others by taking control of the situation and allowing you to relax enough to learn?


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## HobNob

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I would take him to a behaviorist then first, before taking him to a trainer.
> 
> With trainers, you have this "if you only have a hammer" idea in a lot of cases. If they think of dogs in terms of dominance, then that's what their solution is going to be.
> 
> You want to have his behavior assessed before training.
> 
> Kind of like kids with a learning disability - if you don't have them tested, and don't know they are dyslexic, then teaching them is a much more difficult task than if you know what is happening in their head, and can then utilize the very best techniques for that particular issue.
> 
> International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)
> Animal Behavior Society Web Site
> Behavioral Medicine - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences
> PETFAX Behavioral Consultation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
> 
> May be resources.
> 
> Regardless of cause, NILIF can really help - and it can be both fear, anxiety and leadership. Of all dogs, to me, a fearful dog needs leadership more than a balanced dog, even one with dominant tendencies.
> 
> It is the way in which the leadership is presented to the dog - does your leader tamp your fear of others by making you more fearful of them (so now the dog fears your reaction more than the fearful stimulus), or does your leader tamp your fear of others by taking control of the situation and allowing you to relax enough to learn?


I feel as though the person we have decided to work with is more than just a trainer. She will be working with us on psychology, understanding Duke's behaviors, developing a mutual relationship with him, learning how to respond to Duke's behaviors, establishing pack structure & leadership so Duke does not feel the need to assert himself in situations which are under our control, etc. I felt comfortable with the conversation I had with her, and after talking to my husband about it we feel she would be a good person to work with. 

We do practice NILIF with Duke -- we make him sit and wait when going inside or outside of the house, we make him sit and wait to be fed, we make him sit/down/shake/etc for treats, we make him sit/down/shake/etc for toys, and if he tries to demand our attention we make him sit/etc to receive it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are times we miss the mark or things we should be doing that we aren't. But that is why we are going to bring in a professional.


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## HobNob

Oops...forgot to say thanks for the resources!


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