# Handler "tags" in training.



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

In another thread the topic of the dog biting the handler in training came up. I think it a good topic for discussion, but really not appropriate for the thread in which it started (even though that thread has now been pretty well hijacked beyond hope). So since the post that started the discussion revolves around a SchH dog, and much of the subsequent questions also revolve around the training/temperament aspects particular to SchH, I figured this is the most appropriate place to continue the discussion.

The post that started the discussion:


> Yes, he bites me every time we train! He bit my left hand twice today, it feels crushed at the moment. But these are just accidental bites, like missing the toy/target. I have two nice pairs of working gloves but I guess I can't be bothered to wear them. A few weeks ago he bit my face. Again an accident but I was NOT pleased and it still kinda hurts. Over the summer he bit my thumb so hard it was numb for a long time and had a deep puncture (I was holding Kong Wubba, talking to my uncle and not paying attention). He's also bit our helper a few times during agitation work without the sleeve or with the right hand, if he reaches in just an inch too close! Again, nothing you can "blame" on the dog, that's just part of training dogs! Oh, he also bit my neighbor's hand after we TOLD him not to reach over our fence and dangle the dogs' toys unless he knew how to get the dog to target. I think that was the bloodiest bite so far but the neighbor laughed and said now he knows what I mean about this not being your average tug-playing dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Luckily, I've not been bitten too hard, too often and it was always my fault. 
The dog knew immediately when he got me. Until I get better at targeting, we use the two handle tug and little ball play, otherwise I'd be tagged more often, so being proactive. 
A guy at my club uses balls often and his female GSD has gotten his thumb many, many times, he just keeps on, hardly flinching...he knows it is his fault.
A face bite is unacceptable, not sure why the dog would go for the face? Was the ball tucked in the neck?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

My take on being tagged during training...It happens. If you have a drivey enough dog, sooner or later you're going to get bit. I have a pretty good scar on the inside of my elbow where my dog went for the ball and I could have been more coordinated. The number of bruises I've gotten from teeth missing toys are too numerous to recall individually. My cuticles on my fingers will never be the same and I've given up all hope of ever having a manicure that lasts.

However that said, it's an issue of control. The more I've done this the more I've learned that a SchH dog does not need to get away with murder. You won't kill the drive for the toy if you teach them they must target the ball and not your arm. Starting with our very small puppies with balls on ropes, we teach them to grip the ball and not the rope, just by reinforcement. They will learn to target the ball if they know that's what they must do to win the toy. Another useful tool is the release word. If you teach your dog not to go for the toy until it is given a release command, you are more likely to be in sync with them and aware when they go for the toy, because you've asked for it. It's really just self control.

As far as tags on helpers in agitation. Well, that's safety to me. And usually handler or helper error. There's a reason we all sign waivers...


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I managed to stay away from that other thread and didn't read anything past the first post. This handler is either a total clutz or is in denial about their dog. The fact the dog bit the neighbor seriously is rather frightening and makes me think the handler is in denial. 

I have seen safe dogs in SchH and I have seen dogs that aren't safe. The ones that aren't safe seem to be the ones that the handler actually likes their dog that way and encourages it one way or another. 

I live in the real world with my dog going out in public and around people all the time and find that sort of thinking unacceptable. Other than rarely getting your own fingers in the way of a toy and it hurts but that's all and you quickly learn not to put your fingers there again, I feel there is no excuse for any other bites.

Besides, the thinking that this is ok and letting your dog get away with biting is not only dangerous to the handler and others, but continues the feeling that all SchH dogs are vicious.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Erm, that would be my dog *slowly raises hand*. I forgot about that thread.

I was not there when my neighbor got bit but I did apologize to him and he laughed and said it was totally his fault. DH said what happened was that the neighbor had seen me teasing up Nikon with the ball and decided to try (you know, like you jerk the toy right as the dog is going for it, around in circles until you get dizzy and let the dog bite and tug). But he didn't really know what he was doing and was holding the toy up over my fence so he moved it wrong and got bit. I guess if people want to reach over my fence and tease up my dogs with their toys they can't expect the dog not to want to play the game.

I got bit in the face a few weeks ago. When I send the dog out for a dumbell I quick slip a ball under my chin (like in that video that often gets posted on here). After the out I either reward immediately (WITH a break command), ask for a finish, heel over to the next retrieve, etc. We've been working retrieves with a ball under my chin for months and until that day he had never once gone after the ball *until* I gave the release word and dropped the ball while I back away. But for whatever reason that day he went for the ball as he outed so I wasn't lifting my chin and backing away and he bit my face on my lower jaw. I solved the problem by giving him a swift but not abusive knee in the chest the next 5 times I said "out" which kept him sitting and now he is back to waiting for the release.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I see helpers using their hands to agitate the dogs and if they aren't quick enough may get bit. But the dog shouldn't go for anything but the sleeve, IMO and the helpers at my club seldom use the hand in that manner,they really don't need to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I see helpers using their hands to agitate the dogs and if they aren't quick enough may get bit. But the dog shouldn't go for anything but the sleeve, IMO and the helpers at my club seldom use the hand in that manner,they really don't need to.


I disagree but I don't want a sleeve oriented dog, I want a dog that brings aggression with aggression and fights back whether there's a sleeve being put in his mouth or not.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The helper doesn't "put a sleeve in the mouth" where I go, and the dog should not look at the helper to feel they can bite them anywhere, the sleeve should be the target, especially during the foundation training. 
Engaging the helper is one thing, but to think they can bite anywhere is dirty. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't want Karlo thinking he can go for a leg just to get a bite.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The dog will go for what's presented, so if that's a right hand and not a left sleeve that's what they'll go for. If the helper is making physical contact with my dog during agitation work I fully expect the dog to show some civil aggression and it's up to the helper to know just how far they can reach and how fast they can get out. Coming into the blind the helper is just standing there, thus bark and hold, no reason for any dog to start tearing at the legs. Sleeve presented - bite sleeve. The foundation can vary. For a prey dog maybe all sleeves and biting and claiming objects, but for a not-so-prey dog maybe the foundation is that the _threat_ is the target, and biting the sleeve diffuses the threat.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i don't engage in the SchH sport, but i do play tug with my dog.........he loves it more than anything, and its a good tool to keep him busy in agility while the other dogs are running through the course.......

before i even started tugging with him, i made sure i knew how to do it correctly, there are rules to the game......game ends, if he slips and bites or nips, no jumping on me to get the toy, etc, etc......i start, i end, and do OB exercises with toy reward....its a great tool, it can teach alot of control with the bitting.....i cannot imagine even in SchH someone not controlling the urge to bite anything that moves.........instead of the target..........scarey.........


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Civil work is done without the sleeve and teaches the dog to focus on the helper as the aggressor and not just the sleeve. The helper can get a hand bite this way if he's not careful, but it's good training for the dog - not the hand bite part. I have seen dogs that have had a lot of good civil work done focus directly on the upper chest and face of the helper and not ever go for a leg bite. The helper's job is to get the sleeve up in place and in time for the bite. Sleeve happy dogs will start turning to the side and away from the helper and that's not correct.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Elaine said:


> Civil work is done without the sleeve and teaches the dog to focus on the helper as the aggressor and not just the sleeve. The helper can get a hand bite this way if he's not careful, but it's good training for the dog - not the hand bite part. I have seen dogs that have had a lot of good civil work done focus directly on the upper chest and face of the helper and not ever go for a leg bite. The helper's job is to get the sleeve up in place and in time for the bite. Sleeve happy dogs will start turning to the side and away from the helper and that's not correct.


Exactly. I've never seen a dog go for a leg or even *look* at the leg unless it was a dog that was specifically trained to leg bite (and I think the only one of these I've seen was a very small dog, like a fox terrier or something like that who was doing protection).


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Liesje said:


> The dog will go for what's presented, so if that's a right hand and not a left sleeve that's what they'll go for. If the helper is making physical contact with my dog during agitation work I fully expect the dog to show some civil aggression and it's up to the helper to know just how far they can reach and how fast they can get out. Coming into the blind the helper is just standing there, thus bark and hold, no reason for any dog to start tearing at the legs. Sleeve presented - bite sleeve. The foundation can vary. For a prey dog maybe all sleeves and biting and claiming objects, *but for a not-so-prey dog maybe the foundation is that the threat is the target, and biting the sleeve diffuses the threat.*



_Thank you._

Schutzhund has been so diluted, that people seem to forget this. 

A better thing to discuss should honestly be what is becoming acceptable in the sport, and what isn't. People call a defensive-minded dog with FIGHT drive a hazard in the sport, it would seem. And maybe they should. 

Do people want a dog getting civil during Agility? Rally? Flyball? Pretty much every other dog sport? No. So why would they want it in Schutzhund?

Honestly, I wish French Ring was more popular over here in the states. Or Mondio Ring, or PSA. Maybe people would actually realize that their GOOD civil dogs were being wasted in a sport that basically doesn't want their talents.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

debbiebrown said:


> .....i cannot imagine even in SchH someone not controlling the urge to bite anything that moves.........instead of the target..........scarey.........


Yeah, I know, like how do our dogs even sleep? *sarcasm*

It's much more of an interaction than out of control prey drive. I've seen dogs with much more prey drive than mine, especially for a sleeve. He values the *game* that we are playing and not necessarily the toy. Maybe people are assuming the bites are like resource guarding? That is totally different, absolutely unacceptable. I have toys lying helter skelter around my house and yard and besides having something to carry around and occasionally chew on, for the most part my SchH dog ignores them. It's only fun to chase, bite, and tug when it's the *game* you play with your dog. That is why you do not see SchH dogs obsessively chasing leaves, birds, flowers waving, in the wind, etc as you seem to be implying. The dog is conditioned to play a prey game with the handler.

I personally don't like too much obedience with tugging, at least not at first. I don't really spend all that time setting "rules" from the beginning because it's super easy for me to control - I just walk away and the toy is meaningless, the game is over. If the dog is out of control, that's it, we're done. If the dog nips my hands because I was flailing around and not paying close enough attention to his targeting, that's just what happens sometimes. If I slip the toy into my pocket and ask the dog to heel, we heel away. The dog is not snatching at my pocket because he knows that's not how it works. The toy is mine and I decide when and how to present it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

When working a dog in a high state of drive, where everything is moving at warp speed, the occasional tag is going to happen. Dog and handler are moving fast, dog goes for the toy and handler zigs when dog zags and a finger or flopping clothing might get tagged. But IMO, tags should be true accidents, and thus rare. If it is happening regularly there is something wrong. Likewise with a dog grabbing a hand that is holding a toy or treat in an attempt to engage the handler or make the hand release the toy or treat.

I know there is a school of thought in SchH that says that nothing should be done in raising or training a dog that might possibly inhibit his drive. Particularly with young dogs…. lest their drive or confidence be compromised. I do not prescribe to that at all. There is a balance of course and no young dog, whether for sport/work or anything else, should be subjected to a constant barrage of “no, bad dog”. But if a dog, young or old, cannot be given boundaries, taught some rules and expectations for his behavior, and cope with the occasional correction or negative experience without it harming the dog for the work then the dog didn’t have what it takes to do the work in the first place.

Some take the “let them get away with murder” philosophy over into working with the toy and create a disrespectful, crazed maniac. Build drive, make the dog so obsessed with the drive obect (toy) that he has tunnel vision and is completely oblivious to everything else, teach him to pursue it with 100% commitment and complete abandon all the time, regardless of what or who (handler included) is in the way. I see people not only accepting but actually encouraging their dogs to mug their handler's pockets, nip the handler, tug the handler’s clothing, bite hands holding toys or treats and showing complete disregard for the handler's body parts. Then they show off their scared hands and ripped clothing as evidence of what a great dog they have. 

I personally consider that sort of behavior completely unacceptable. Yes, I want the dog to express his drive, but there are rules that he has to abide by. I want him to "push the handler" in the work, but again their are rules. Jumping up on me when I invite it, playing rough, and all that is fine. Using teeth on me, intentionally or accidentally, is absolutely NOT fine. IMO, if expecting the dog to show some respect for the handler and imposing some simple rules on how he can express his drive inhibits or lessens the dog's drive then the dog didn't have the right drive for the work to begin with. Likewise, if he can't control himself and where he puts his teeth when working in drive (and it's not a case of me being at fault and putting him into too high of a state of drive) then he didn't have the right nerve for the work to begin with. 

The way I see it, if my dog has the teeth/eye coordination to catch a frisbee mid flight, a kong on the bounce, or snatch a buzzing bee out of the air then he darn well avoid my various body parts when we are playing and leave my fingers attached to my hand when I give him a treat. But it is my responsibility to teach these things. If I teach my dog that it is ok, or desirable, to maul me to get what he wants, I have only myself to blame. And if a dog thinks it’s ok to treat the handler with such disregard, of course he’s going to show even less respect for the neighbor or friend or relative who makes the mistake of picking up a toy.

If I am getting tagged on a regular basis, yes it is my fault as handler/trainer, but not because I didn't get out of the way fast enough. It is because either A) I made the mistake of teasing the dog into a frenzied state of drive overload where is no longer clear in the head, aware of what else is going on and able to adjust to it, or B) I failed to teach him good targeting skills and to take responsibility for his teeth and where he puts them.

I very, very rarely get tagged by my dogs. And every single one has been on the hand holding the toy. I have never had another body part tagged. Not even my chin when doing the under the chin toy drop. Most were legitimate accidents that just happen sometimes. The very few that were not accidents and were cases of the dog not paying attention to where the teeth went were with younger dogs who weren’t yet 100% clear on the “no tag” rule. And in those few cases the situation offered an opportunity to make them 100% clear on that rule.  Visitors and relatives play ball or tug with them often and have never gotten tagged. A couple groups of neighbor kids come over fairly regularly in the summer to play with them and they can safely throw balls without getting jumped on, knocked over or bitten. But that’s only because my dogs were taught what is allowed and what isn’t. It hasn’t hurt their drive in the least, and it’s sure saved lots of bandaids and clothing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

atravis said:


> Do people want a dog getting civil during Agility? Rally? Flyball? Pretty much every other dog sport? No. So why would they want it Schutzhund?


Not sure what this means. I do Agility and Rally with my dog (and Dock Diving, talk about getting worked up over a toy!) and he works way more civil than prey but there is no_ threat_ presented in any other context so it's a non-issue.

Unless you were being sarcastic, then I get it!


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Yes, unmarked sarcasm


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

atravis said:


> Honestly, I wish French Ring was more popular over here in the states. Or Mondio Ring, or PSA. Maybe people would actually realize that their GOOD civil dogs were being wasted in a sport that basically doesn't want their talents.


Another thread entirely, but where do you get the idea that French or Mondio are inherrently more "civil"? Because the dog bites a suit instead of a sleeve? Most definitely not true. The equipment a dog is trained on does not a civil dog make. The training, and the dog's temperament, determine that.

As far as where and what a dog can bite, my rule is "bite the bad guy". If a sleeve is present, bite that. If a sleeve is not present, bite what you can get. A dog who always bites the sleeve, and only the sleeve, when the sleeve is present is not automatically a sleeve obsessed prey monster. He is a dog who has been taught the rules and is abiding by them. If a helper/decoy is aggitating the dog without a sleeve, and any of his body parts get within reach of the dog, then if it's a good dog with good training working in the correct frame of mind (aggression, not playing a game) then I expect him to lose some blood.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Chris Wild said:


> Another thread entirely, but where do you get the idea that French or Mondio are inherrently more "civil"? Because the dog bites a suit instead of a sleeve? Most definitely not true. The equipment a dog is trained on does not a civil dog make. The training, and the dog's temperament, determine that.


I'm not trying to insinuate a body suit makes a dog more civil than a sleeve. What I AM trying to say, is that a dog's civil drive has a much better chance of being exploited in a sport where one specific target area isn't the main goal.

Does that mean there aren't any pery-driven dogs doing FR/Mondio? Of course not. (I mean, have you SEEN the amount of Mals that do it? lol)

I'm simply suggesting that they aren't faulted for "dirty bites" there in the same way they are for SchH. ANYTHING off the sleeve for them is dirty. My question then becomes "what the heck good does biting a sleeve do anyway"? Good lord, I'd rather my dog go for the flank... take that sucker down. Or (heaven forbid) he move to the weapon hand. Because who in their right mind likes being bludgeoned with a baton? That's a major flaw in MOST protection sports, though, ScH isn't alone. targeting ONE area and sticking to that... but, as you said, that's fodder for another thread


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK that original thread got a bit ridiculous. Obviously some people missed my attempt at humor. I am not getting bit by my dog every 5 seconds, lol. 

The last time he got my hand, I got him this new toy and admittedly, we've struggled with "out" and then NOT grabbing for the toy again as I pick it up or lift it so to him I guess a new toy means new rules, which has since been corrected with this new toy, yet again. He just did several agility sequences with that toy and there's no nips on my hands or dog ripping at my pants or anything like that. 

I think that's where most of my hand nips (or tags or whatever it's called) happen, after the dog outs or drops the object on his own and I reach to pick it up at one end so now it's moving again. I have not worked the out with toys or reinforcing that it's out until I say "OK" very much because it just hasn't really mattered. However we've worked on that a lot more this week since we're starting agility and there will be way more fast reps of throwing a toy as a reward and quickly getting it back to keep it flowing. For me it has been finding a balance between having the dog comply so he understands that out keeps the game going, not ends it and not having to use a ton of compulsion with something that's supposed to be fun and rewarding. I do not like a lot of choking the dog off a toy or object or cranking on a prong. For whatever reason, outing toys has never been Nikon's strong point (though he is not dirty on the sleeve but again, totally different frame of mind). I'm not sure what it means or if it's just a training thing since I haven't really worked it much. It's not that he's possessive, he brings all toys to me and shoves the string or tug end into my hand, but I think I've been too quick to start the game so he sees any movement after an out as fair game and usually I'm just not ready or not paying attention. 

In the grand scheme of things, my first dog that I've done any of this sort of training with (not just SchH, but using toys, my other two could not care less about toys) getting my hand every once in a while because of something I did or didn't do just is not really high on my list of worries. The whole prey/tug game thing is for me like learning really complicated choreography. My trainer can do a short bit of obedience work with my dog and everything looks better and more fluid so I guess that says it's not the toy or the dog, it's me. It wasn't really until recently that my dog liked tugging so most of the rewarding has been dropping and throwing toys. I don't have experience handling tugs and working dogs in closer to me so I get nipped more because I'm a total klutz.

The priority for me is that it clearly motivates the dog. And not just as a lure either, I can't stand that (either in SchH obedience or in agility). He doesn't run off with the toy and get snarky if I try to take it, he runs back to me and presses it into my hands. That's really all I could ask for.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> .
> As far as where and what a dog can bite, my rule is "bite the bad guy". If a sleeve is present, bite that. If a sleeve is not present, bite what you can get..


I agree, that was what I was posting about, if the dog has the sleeve available, but bites the helper instead, I'd rather not have my dog think he can bite dirty. 
(At his age, he is in prey drive not defense)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, that was what I was posting about, if the dog has the sleeve available, but bites the helper instead, I'd rather not have my dog think he can bite dirty.
> (At his age, he is in prey drive not defense)


I agree with this, but the bites I have seen doing agitation (in general, not just one dog) were with the sleeve on the ground. Sometimes the helper is doing it because the dog is too sleeve oriented (ie, "hey, you, I'm a problem for you so you better look at me and not at the sleeve on the ground!"). But at the same time if my dog was doing a bark and hold and the helper reached out and slapped the dog across the face with the right hand I wouldn't be surprise if he bit the hand. Maybe that's "dirty" but don't present a "dirty" bite if you don't want to get bit! But dogs randomly grabbing legs, coming around and nipping above the elbow or at the other hand while the helper is stationary, I don't see any reason for that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, a threat deserves a bite... if the helper slapped the dog and the dog bit, it is _not_ dirty at all. I'm talking about the dog that will bite just to bite because the foundation was sloppy or rushed.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

atravis said:


> Honestly, I wish French Ring was more popular over here in the states. Or Mondio Ring, or PSA. Maybe people would actually realize that their GOOD civil dogs were being wasted in a sport that basically doesn't want their talents.


Dogs that are successful in the ring sports are not civil in the slightest. The way the rules are structured a civil dog can't even pass at the higher levels. Some ring dogs may be civil off of the field though.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

There is absolutely nothing in the original post that indicates it was a humorous post. Trying to say it was, is just denial. If a dog bites that much, it is not trained well. I don't care if it was 3 months old when it started training. And if it was started at a young age, then there is no way in h_ _ _ that biting should be an issue at an older age.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

If your dog is biting you, you have a problem. The most common ones are:

The dog lacks the coordination. Maybe due to age or physical limitations.

The handler is moving the target in an unfair way.

The dog knows he can punk you and take the target.

What ever the cause you should not let it happen. It's never acceptable and really easy to correct.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> The handler is moving the target in an unfair way.


Bingo. Not that I can do anything about it but I have arthritis so often my handling of toys and balls leaves a lot to be desired! Especially in winter when you can barely feel your hands as it is. This is why I've never blamed the dog for my hand being in the way or moving the target wrong. He's never had an issue of targeting the string rather than the ball, the handle rather than the tug, or something like that like some dogs do but sometimes I just don't do it right.

Your list is just missing "the handler lacks physical ability and coordination"


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What about the person in a wheel chair who trained the dog to achieve a SchH title? I remember I've seen the video a while back. I don't think that physical ability of the handler plays any major role if the handler steps out of the box and adjusts his or her training methods accordingly. The good dog will be happy to adjust, I'm confident of that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the dog got a SchH3 recently. I don't know the handler or how the dog was trained, but very cool to see!

I don't think a handler should have to adjust training methods based on someone else's preferences if they are happy with the progress and the dog's behavior. Ten people can go out and agree to train their dog the same way and get ten different results but as long as the dog and the handler are happy, why does it matter? How I like my dog to look while heeling will be different than what you like and different than what Chris likes and Jane likes, etc. One dog might be a prey dog, one dog might be a civil dog, one dog might be balanced. Each person at the training club might use a different toy, a different collar, etc but really why is it anyone else's business? I personally could not tolerate a handler aggressive dog but I know they're out there and some people seem to take pride in training one. It's not my thing but if that's what they want, that's what they can train.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have arthritis in my hands,too, and I know it is harder in the winter. Treats are way harder to dispense than toy play for me. Stiff, sore hands don't cooperate!
Jason Lake is an inspiration
Dog Training equipment for police k9, military dogs, schutzhund training and working dog enthusiasts. - Prodogz.com


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Fast said:


> Dogs that are successful in the ring sports are not civil in the slightest. The way the rules are structured a civil dog can't even pass at the higher levels. Some ring dogs may be civil off of the field though.


You'll have to quote to me your definition of "civil" then, because I just don't buy that.

Does the dog get to WORK civil? Obviously not... a dog CAN'T work civil with a dude wearing a suit. 

But I'm talking about a human-focused dog here. As in, doesn't give a rat's arse about the equipment. That's how I'm using the term "civil". 

I never implied that they would be _champions_. Just that they would be capable of utilizing those instincts to a fuller degree than in SchH. In SchH, the ultimate goal is to bite the sleeve. The dog gets whacked around a little bit with the baton (maybe), ta da, you're done.

In Ring, as I'm sure you know, the decoy actually engages the dog. Messes with him, TRIES to slip him up. He doesn't offer the bite up to him on a silver platter. He doesn't WANT the dog to succeed... he's doing everything in his power to ensure that the dog FAILS. In Ring, the dog is actually given an adequate opportunity to switch into fight, because they do actually get to FIGHT the man. Not just be dragged around by him on a sleeve.

I'm not trying to paint SchH as "bad", and Ring as "good". Heck, I'm doing SchH with Mulder. But I see it for what it is... a fun game that I get to participate in with my dog. A SPORT. Nothing else.

If I was dead serious about it, he'd be doing KNPV. Or I would have taken him to a PPD trainer. That's as real as it gets, and NO sport comes close to it. Maybe that's good, maybe its not. Maybe people are uncomfortable with the idea of a dog with that much power. Personally, I like a dog who's looking at the man, not the sleeve, or the suit, or the equipment in general. The man is the dog's relaity... the berlap is just our cover against him.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Edit to my last post-

I think I need to sub in NVBK for KNPV. Whichever one does the muzzle work... I forget.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

atravis said:


> I'm not trying to paint SchH as "bad", and Ring as "good". Heck, I'm doing SchH with Mulder. But I see it for what it is... a fun game that I get to participate in with my dog. A SPORT. Nothing else.


Sport it is but you can play it many different ways and levels, it also depends on your experience and, abilities your dog and its abilities, club and helpers. 
You play it like a fun game nuttin wrong with that.
If you got the rite crew and dog there still some serious Schutzhund to be had.
As for getting bit I recently got nailed a one good one on a call out with out correction the bite was just rage and frustration on his part. I dont want or like getting bit but its **** impressive seeing him that pissed snapping and clacking when called out. 
Often after a session when outing the sleeve at the car I'll get one if I dont have a leash to give him. These are the only time's I have to be careful, he's mindful of my hands.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

When we got Bison we read a lot about how to raise a "working dog" and tried to follow much of that advice. But the bite inhibition was one thing that I didn't buy into. I am not OK with my dog biting me. Period. Yes, accidents happen. Yes, training with treats in drive can involve teeth, but I don't consider that a bite. I spent a LOT of time training him not to bite when he was a puppy and to take treats gently. I don't think it has inhibited his bite in protection at all.










As Jane mentioned, I train with a two handled tug rather than a ball on a rope. I can control it better which reduces accidental contact. It isn't only because I don't like getting bit, but because Bison is very sensitive to me and if he sees me in pain he would be distracted by it. I don't want that interfering with our training. If he ever tagged me on purpose, he would be in big trouble.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

They are ALL sports now and all of the training, yeah even KNPV, can be made into a non-serious game.
It is not the equipment the dog bites, it is WHO is wearing the equipment that makes the difference.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

atravis said:


> You'll have to quote to me your definition of "civil" then, because I just don't buy that.


 I'm not trying to sell it. I'm just shining a light into the darkness for you. You can choose to close your eyes if you want to, that's OK with me. 



> But I'm talking about a human-focused dog here. As in, doesn't give a rat's arse about the equipment. That's how I'm using the term "civil".


 OK, I think we may be on the same page.



> I never implied that they would be _champions_. Just that they would be capable of utilizing those instincts to a fuller degree than in SchH. In SchH, the ultimate goal is to bite the sleeve. The dog gets whacked around a little bit with the baton (maybe), ta da, you're done.


 If that's how you train that's what you'll get. I don't train my dogs to think of the sleeve as the "ultamate goal" thus my dogs don't see the sleeve as such.
*Please give me a few names or better yet, show me some videos of ring dogs that you think are civil.*



> In Ring, as I'm sure you know, the decoy actually engages the dog. Messes with him, TRIES to slip him up.


 That's true. But I also understand the sport enough to know that aggression is a detriment. Because of the way the ring decoy works he can exploit the dog's aggression and take points. Because schutzhund is very predictable, more aggression can be used and still keep the dog under control.



> He doesn't offer the bite up to him on a silver platter.


 If silver platters were anywhere on the schutzhund field I would train my dog to forget the helper and steal the platter. 



> In Ring, the dog is actually given an adequate opportunity to switch into fight, because they do actually get to FIGHT the man. Not just be dragged around by him on a sleeve.


 If your schutzhund dog is simply being dragged around you are a crap trainer.



> I'm not trying to paint SchH as "bad", and Ring as "good". Heck, I'm doing SchH with Mulder.


 No you are not "doing schutzhund". You are training FOR schutzhund. Once your dog is titled then you are doing schutzhund. It may sound pedantic, but those that have titled a dog know what I'm talking about. 



> If I was dead serious about it, he'd be doing KNPV.


 No he wouldn't because you have to live in Holland to do that sport.



> Personally, I like a dog who's looking at the man, not the sleeve, or the suit, or the equipment in general. The man is the dog's relaity... the berlap is just our cover against him.


 Then you should train for that, just like many people train their schutzhund dogs to look at the man.



> I think I need to sub in NVBK for KNPV. Whichever one does the muzzle work... I forget.


 For someone that has such strong opinions about dogsports you show an amazing lack of knowledge. NVBK has the muzzle work during the object guard. French ring has it during obedience.
What's stopping you from doing muzzle work with the dog that you are training for schutzhund?


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

*knocks on wood before posting* I got bit quite a bit when I first started, a result of me learning how to handle the toy with a drivey dog, but I couldn't tell you the last time he bit me. I do have some pretty impressive scars from my early days but now firmly stand in the camp that says schutzhund is not a blood sport, you're doing something wrong if you're always bleeding. I have seen a multiple schh3 supposedly "awesome" dog practically render the handler naked from the waist down in a single training session and everyone laughed it off and thought it normal, just proof of how "awesome" the dog was. Hello!!! In what twisted world is that okay?!?!

On a related note, you guys really find the tug easier to handle??? I much prefer the ball! :laugh:

*knocks on wood one more time for good measure*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I prefer the ball, but sometimes have trouble with it if my hand is stiff, so timing my rewards can be a bit klutzy b/c I can only do it with one hand. I have been bit using the ball because I tend to wrap the string over my index finger so I'm actually holding the string about an inch from the ball or right up on it, not at the end of the string. So, like if the dog looses his grip and re-grips and my fingers are on the ball....yeah. Tugs are harder for me but I plan on using them more for agility because then my dog focuses more on just tugging close to me and less on chasing the ball which is kind of chaotic and unfair in a class setting. But, I've been bit with tugs too b/c I hold both hands on the tug. My tugs have handles but for whatever reason I don't really use them other than to present the reward, then I move my hands in so basically one hand is on either side of the dog's mouth. I just get better grip that way or the dog can pull the tug away from me which is no fun. So again, if the dog outs and gets to bite again, or looses his grip and re-grips on his own, if he doesn't perfectly target my hand might be in the way. I am not super picky on targeting as long as it's not an issue of biting the string and not the ball, biting the handles and not the tug, etc. 

Biting at me on purpose does not happen and I would not tolerate. I can't say I've ever been bit b/c the dog was trying to get something I had in my pocket or over a shoulder, just bit while the toy is in play or if the dog outs and re-grabs the toy. If my dog wants to play he will find a toy and drop it in my lap or press it against my hand, that is fine with me but once the toy is on me (up in my hand or crammed in a pocket) the biting and jumping stops.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Fast said:


> That's true. But I also understand the sport enough to know that aggression is a detriment. Because of the way the ring decoy works he can exploit the dog's aggression and take points. Because schutzhund is very predictable, more aggression can be used and still keep the dog under control.


I've had a well known Mondio player tell me something like this: in Mondio, he wants a dog with prey drive but he does not particularly wants an "angry" dog. In place of aggression he looks for a dog with something he calls "bite drive", where a dog will bite and bite not because he is provoked but simply because he loves to bite for the sake fo biting - so once he grabs you he will keep pushing his bite deeper and deeper ... all the time without much "encouragement"/fight from the decoy. Prey and bite.

Just what I heard.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jason L said:


> I've had a well known Mondio player tell me something like this: in Mondio, he wants a dog with prey drive but he does not particularly wants an "angry" dog. In place of aggression he looks for a dog with something he calls "bite drive", where a dog will bite and bite not because he is provoked but simply because he loves to bite for the sake fo biting - so once he grabs you he will keep pushing his bite deeper and deeper ... all the time without much "encouragement"/fight from the decoy. Prey and bite.
> 
> Just what I heard.


You breed for what you are looking for, not train for it. Over the years the reverse has happened. Everyone thinks that you can train a dog to do anything, and a good trainer can, but what is missing is the pleasure the dog gets when he does what he should do naturally - i.e "where a dog will bite and bite not because he is provoked but simply because he loves to bite for the sake of biting". It's all in the genetics - not training. I will add that a dog that is bred for a particular activity doesn't not expect a treat afterward - he/she does it because they like to and are not conditioned to perform an act for a reward. A few words and a pat on the head is reward enough for them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

When I do the klicker training I sometimes get nipped because they are going for the treats so fast that they sometimes bite my fingers. When they bite me too hard I stop the training and teach them how to take the treat slowly. It only lasts for 10 minutes and they will get bitten again and I go back to the "SLOWLY!" part. Than they will not get the treat unless they take it slowly.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Fast said:


> *Please give me a few names or better yet, show me some videos of ring dogs that you think are civil.*


Give me a minute. There's an awful lot of smut to be dug through. 


Fast said:


> If your schutzhund dog is simply being dragged around you are a crap trainer.


Gee, then there sure are a LOT of crap trainer out there!

You said to me that there is still good SchH to be hand. I believe you. 
But if you honestly believe that the sport as a whole is going in the direction of serious, man-focused dogs, then you're naive. 

The fact that Goldens and Labs are out there right now titling in it is all the proof I need of that. 



Fast said:


> No you are not "doing schutzhund". You are training FOR schutzhund. Once your dog is titled then you are doing schutzhund. It may sound pedantic, but those that have titled a dog know what I'm talking about.


I'm sorry you feel you need a title to be considered "doing" a sport. I don't need a prefix on my dog's name to know his worth, or my own for that matter. If you do, well... 



Fast said:


> No he wouldn't because you have to live in Holland to do that sport.


No, you wouldn't.

KNPV-USA



Fast said:


> NVBK has the muzzle work during the object guard. French ring has it during obedience.
> What's stopping you from doing muzzle work with the dog that you are training for schutzhund?


I seriously hope you understand how ridiculous that comparison is. MUZZLE WORK, as I meant it, does not simply entail the dog _wearing_ a muzzle. A nervy dog who has to be muzzled at the vet's office isn't doing muzzle work, any more than a dog in FR is during OB. MUZZLE WORK, as I define it, means suits/sleeve off, man vs. dog, with the muzzle being the only thing keeping the decoy from getting his *** eaten.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the SDA training/titles do muzzle work at the higher levels? I haven't seen it in a trial but I've seen them demo it a few times. Very interesting to watch when done right.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, the SDA PD2 involves muzzle work.

There is nothing stopping anyone from doing muzzle work in training, even if it is not required for any trials. Done well it can be a lot of fun and also very beneficial to the development of the dog. Done poorly... well.. all sorts of problems.

My understanding of the US KNPV is that it never got off the ground. I remember a big buzz about it a couple years ago, but nothing since. The link provided has no pertinent information whatsoever, and a google search of the topic or the players involved doesn't turn up anything recent or informational either.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I love watching KNPV videos they were really neat to watch


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

atravis said:


> MUZZLE WORK, as I define it, means suits/sleeve off, man vs. dog, with the muzzle being the only thing keeping the decoy from getting his *** eaten.


Well, again, it's not what equipment is or is not present, but *why* the dog is doing what he's doing. Muzzle work is nifty, but it certainly doesn't define a dog, and in fact seeing a dog in muzzle work can paint a very misleading picture of what the dog is really about if that is all one knows about that dog.

I've seen some dogs that looked like Cujo in muzzle, but take the muzzle off and put them on the man and the work was pretty ho-hum. Why? Because the only aggression the muzzle accessed was frustration. The dog wasn't really being aggressive toward the man, but showing displaced aggression due to frustration of his drive and the decoy was just the most handy target to vent that at. And while using frustration can be a valuable tool for use in parts of training, that certainly isn't the type of aggression that protection is supposed to be about as a whole.

Some of the most impressive muzzle fighters I've seen haven't been anything more than a prey mongers in their work, and hardly prone to eating decoy butt as part of their diet. But they were very prone to frustration aggression in general, and not just at decoys but at anyone (handler included) who got in their way when high in drive and unable to get what they wanted.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

atravis said:


> I seriously hope you understand how ridiculous that comparison is. MUZZLE WORK, as I meant it, does not simply entail the dog _wearing_ a muzzle. A nervy dog who has to be muzzled at the vet's office isn't doing muzzle work, any more than a dog in FR is during OB. MUZZLE WORK, as I define it, means suits/sleeve off, man vs. dog, with the muzzle being the only thing keeping the decoy from getting his *** eaten.


The only thing properly done muzzle work tells you is that the dog is not keying on any specific equipment. It tells you nothing about the working drive of the dog. 

Believe it or not you can take an aggressive but equipment focused dog, you know one that puts on a good show but won't bite without the equipment being present, and screw up its training so that it look impressive when wearing a muzzle but it still won't bite for real.

You can also properly train a dog with a suit or a sleeve and have that dog bit for real, in aggression and the only thing between the helper and a real bit is their skill in making sure the dog only gets the sleeve or suit and wants to stay with that bite. 

Its a real special feeling standing on a Schutzhund field knowing that the dog you are facing will bite you anywhere unless you make sure he has a good presentation so that the sleeve becomes his target. All of a sudden you start wishing for a full suit and that the dog had a muzzle. Its funny that even if the scores don't always reflect it these are the dogs the crowd loves and cheers for and wishes they had in their club or kennel.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like turning the lions loose in the arena - the crowd wants to see a mauling.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)




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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Doc said:


> Sounds like turning the lions loose in the arena - the crowd wants to see a mauling.


No, I don’t think so. I think it is about watching a dog who is experiencing the joy of doing what he is born to do. There are some dogs that go out and do the protection work and you can see that they do it because their handler wants them to and they want to make their handler happy. Then there are others who go out there and their faces light up and they give it everything they got. THAT is what is fun to see. 

To me it is like the difference between a musician and someone who plays music. Anyone can learn to play an instrument, but only a musician can make it worth listening to.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Sounds like everyone wants a "real" dog. Anyone out there just wants a sleeve happy prey crazy sports dog?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have just decided to be enjoy what I've got


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

atravis said:


> Give me a minute. There's an awful lot of smut to be dug through.


 WHAT?!?!? Why do you have to dig through a bunch of smut? If civil dogs are so abundant in the ringsports those videos should be easy to find. Anyway, what about the names of the dogs a knowledgeable person will have those names ready to drop in a second? Don't believe me watch this:
Can any of you other members name any dogs that have drives that you like?



> Gee, then there sure are a LOT of crap trainer out there!


 Yep and a lot of them get on the internet and spout off about things they know very little about.




> But if you honestly believe that the sport as a whole is going in the direction of serious, man-focused dogs, then you're naive.


 The sports (all of them) are what you make of them. I don't care about what other people are doing. I care about what's in my yard.



> The fact that Goldens and Labs are out there right now titling in it is all the proof I need of that.


 You have no proof. Name three labs and three Goldens that have gotten a schutzhund title in the last five years. You can't! You're just spouting off and regurgitating some BS you heard. 



> No, you wouldn't.
> 
> KNPV-USA


 Do you believe everything you see on the web? Send me your email address, I have an email to forward you from this prince in Nigeria.
This KNPV-USA BS is nothing but a website to promote some idiots "business". Where are the trials? THEY HAVE NEVER HELD A TRIAL!!!!! Look at the suit on the homepage. That suit is against the rules to use in a KNPV trial. You will never see that type of suit at a real KNPV event or training. Go on YouTube and try to prove me wrong. 
The real KNPV does not allow trials outside of Holland and even then you must be a resident of Holland to participate. 
I have one more question for you. If KNPV is such a difficult sport, why is it that 15-20 dogs get perfect scores every year and a perfect score in schutzhund almost never happens?:crazy:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> To me it is like the difference between a musician and someone who plays music. Anyone can learn to play an instrument, but only a musician can make it worth listening to.


That's is a perfect way to put it. I love it. But you have to remember that some people have a tin ear and are incapable of hearing the difference no matter how hard they try.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Jason L said:


> Sounds like everyone wants a "real" dog. Anyone out there just wants a sleeve happy prey crazy sports dog?


Some people do and I think that's fine and they have my full support. Just don't get mad if your dog gets lower protection scores or try to use the sport as any type of breed evaluation tool.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Considering most of your post directed at me was more of a tantrum, I'll only address 1 thing:

Kody The Boy Wonder and Licorice Rush were two labs to make Sch3. Teversal Kodi and Kaiser Max are two Bernese Mountain Dogs to title. Its fairly well known that Sheila Booth titled a Standard Poodle. 

Other breeds are out there doing it. Are they making it to the top? No. But they ARE training (which I know for you means nothing, but for others who's heads aren't quite so far up their...) and titling in the sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jason L said:


> Sounds like everyone wants a "real" dog. Anyone out there just wants a sleeve happy prey crazy sports dog?


To be honest I wish my dog had a tad more prey drive for the sleeve. He works well up close. Great barking (has never done that screechy prey bark that drives me nuts!), he's not nipping dirty on the sleeve, stays nice and centered, fights back when being driven....but stuff like the long bite he just kind of does almost more like an obedience exercise. To the dog, if the threat is at the other end of the field and staying there, why would he want to run toward him? In his mind, he's already won because he did the work up close and now the helper is on the other side of the field. It's not that the dog is afraid to go down there, it just seems dumb to him and in a way it kind of is. I'm probably making it sound worse than it is, he did long bites on Sunday and while I didn't see (just saw the dog's butt in the air from the other end of the field), I'm told he's launching and griping better every time. But a dog with a bit more prey drive maybe has more of a reason to make a long bite look like lure coursing, you know? I do like the barking and holding a lot, I really really like his barking (the sound, the rhythm, the seriousness of it) so I would not trade that for anything. But unless the dog is perfectly balanced there's always going to be something here or there you think, "I wish we could do it like *that*!"

Maybe I'm wrong, just trying to be honest.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

lol...that was funny (what travis said)


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Where can I get a pup??


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

atravis said:


> YouTube - Terrible dog
> 
> Where can I get a pup??


that dog is a peice..ovcharka's are nerve bags...i would never own one...ever...


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

I thought I actually made the sarcasm clear that time...
Darn smilies fail me again.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

there seems to be a lot of misinterpretation on how bitework is trained. all dogs (well all that i've ever seen or known about) are started on equipment...its foundation. there are handler aggressive dogs out there and there not uncommon. there are some dogs that dont bite there "normal" handlers that will bite a new handler and there are some dogs that will bite there "normal" handler. the only time i've ever heard of a dog biteing off target was/are police dogs or other dogs that have had live bites, (thats an entirely different convo) but i have worked a few PSD's that still target equipment when presented.

then you have nerve bags that will bite where ever. those dogs are no fun to work and i wont even deal with it...


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

atravis said:


> I thought I actually made the sarcasm clear that time...
> Darn smilies fail me again.


im glad you weren't serious hahaha

my thought was, you've got to be kidding me hahaha


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

lcht2 said:


> ovcharka's are nerve bags...i would never own one...ever...


 People say the same about GSDs...


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

GSD07 said:


> People say the same about GSDs...


 
and sadly, a lot of them are..


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

You’re right, Lies. I’ve read your posts several times & the ‘humor’ is waaay over my head. IMO, there’s something wrong when a dog ‘bloodies the neighbor’, bites his owner/handler every time they train, delivers crushing bites, puncture wounds & face bites that cause pain &/or numbness which persists for several weeks. Admittedly, I’m humorless, but there are many who wouldn’t find this ‘funny’. Nor do I think you’re the sort to derail a serious thread with bogus claims of bites & injuries just to make a joke.

There’s quite a gap b/w the _”super docile, low-energy dog with no prey drive and no interest in toys”_ you mentioned in the other thread & Nikon’s behavior as you initially described it. By your implied definition almost everyone who’s posted has one of these _super docile, low-energy dogs lacking even play drive_! Surely you don’t think energy & drives are all about handler bites. Well mannered dogs with excellent bite inhibition should not be equated with docile, low energy beasts lacking the inspiration to even play. Undoubtedly couch spud GS exist but I haven’t met one.

Lies, saying that your dog hasn’t bitten outside of training & play paints with a broad brush. One bite you described occurred while you were talking to your uncle. Another (‘the bloodiest’) was your neighbor. Your later comments scramble to deny what you clearly stated earlier, but those earlier remarks resonate with authenticity. 

Jane, I haven't taken ‘one post’ to judge the breeder’s entire program. In fact I don't understand how you can take my comments as 'judgment'. Given the behavior displayed by Nikon with Lies, it’s reasonable to ask if this is typical & to be expected from the breeder’s dogs. IF it’s typical of her lines, it s/b mentioned when recommending the breeder. JMO. As Lies has amply attested, some owners are seeking exactly this in their dogs & will be thrilled, but I suspect many others aren’t looking for it, don’t expect it & don't want it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've seen Nikon and many others from the breeder. They have great drive and are willing to work _with_ their owners. 
Nikon is what Lies wants him to be or she would have squelched his ways long ago...like I said, look at the breeders blog and judge for yourself if these dogs are or are not great ambassadors to the breed. I would not hesitate to recommend this breeder if someone was looking for a well bred beautiful showline that can work.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Lies, saying that your dog hasn’t bitten outside of training & play paints with a broad brush. One bite you described occurred while you were talking to your uncle. Another (‘the bloodiest’) was your neighbor.


Yeah, both training and play. He nipped the neighbor over a year ago. You've never had a *puppy* nip at you? A puppy + flailing a toy = crazy puppy going to get you with his sharp baby teeth if you're not careful. Honestly I don't get why you're so upset over it. Come talk to my neighbor. He routinely reaches over my fence to pet my dogs. He was out in the yard last night. I guess if every detail is so important to you...I was talking to my uncle because DH and I were dock diving dogs at his cottage and my uncle came down and asked what we were doing. If any canine sport involves getting a dog super-hyped for a toy, it's dock diving. It's also a study on timing when to release the dog and drop or throw your toy. Nikon does not dive as well if you toss the toy and then do the dive, you have to release him and throw almost at the same time (I don't know the different terms, it's on the UAD site). When you are first training and timing everything, sometimes you really f-up your timing with the Wubba, especially when trying to explain it at the same time and proofing the dog's stay or relying on someone else to correctly time the hold and release of the dog. THe next day, my sister proved to have much better timing (holding or tossing!).


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Ok, can we all just stop picking on Lies? If you read her posts regularly, it was easy to see that she was injecting humor through exageration. Those who have disagreements with her training style have explained why they don't agree. She has explained herself several times. If the the discussion continues, let's just stop the nit picking of her and her breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Seriously I don't know where you get off implying my dogs are not well mannered. Do you think an ill-mannered puppy can pass the CGC twice? Perform in the show ring being cramped nose-to-butt with other dogs while manhandled by a judge grunting in German and handled by a complete stranger? My friend's 5 year old daughter walks Nikon. She crawled into my lap on Sat and told me that she loves my dog. Jane knows I have high standards and do not spoil my dogs and squelch is a great choice of words for behaviors I do not tolerate. You are welcome to come observe training and handle the dogs yourself any time you are in the neighborhood.

I don't understand your correlation between drive and handler bites. Handler bites are just mistakes made by the handler, either not training the target right, not proofing the out right, or not handling it right/fairly. It doesn't really have anything to do with drive. I've already stated that I do far less obedience when it comes to tugging than a lot of people. My dog barely knows "out" in the context of toys. That's just a handler and training thing. Out is not something inherent to a dog. You have to teach it and I haven't done much with reinforcing it so to my dog, when the toy is moving it's a fair target. When it's not moving and on me, it's not. I may get accidentally nipped on my hands a lot but I do not have a dog that's clawing at me, barking at me, and ripping at my pockets. When we are playing, we are playing, and the obedience resumes once I give a command the dog understands (sit, platz, hier, fuss...whatever). "_Don't you dare accidentally catch my hand while I'm waving your toy around and patting you up_" is not something I've strictly enforced or plan to. Not everyone has to train exactly the same way. I have friends whose dogs routinely get away with things my dogs wouldn't think to try but they're not my dogs and it's not my house so what does it matter?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

No problem


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thank you so much for this thread...it makes me really appreciate my rally class


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is a great winter activity for the schh dog!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

That's what we did this winter. Trying to find a trial close by so we can put it to the test...


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Jane, they're probably 'great dogs' however great/nice/wonderful are such generic descriptors. Detailed info provides a better view into what one can/should expect from the dog. Upon reading Lies original post, I realized it was perhaps the 1st in depth post I'd read that relayed detailed & 'hard' info on any of the breeder's actual dogs. IMO, a dearth of detailed info & a wealth of general info can lead people to make tragically wrong choices when deciding on a breeder, breeder or individual dog.

Lies, I'm not upset. Why do you think otherwise? You're happy with Nikon's behaviour. As he's your dog, that's your call. Personally, I think you make too many excuses for him. Dogs, unless they're total spazzes &/or idiots, largely put their teeth exactly where they want to & do with 'em exactly as they intend. An occasional accidental nip/tag, sure, but to be routinely bitten while training, to experience face bites, crushing bites & deep punctures is unlikely to be accident following accident upon accident. Is he that inept with his teeth? I highly doubt it. IF that's what you want then cooool, he's your dog, but why make excuses for him?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Its not a winter activity for us


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RubyTuesday, because of what you read in one post about Nikon, you ARE judging the breeder, you keep going back to it and not the individual dog or training he has had. If you are really that curious, visit the site and contact some of the owners, they are transparent.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You seem to like that word


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland said:


> You seem to like that word


You know what I mean when I say it, right? That is what matters....
better than hiding behind a screenname and being anonymous. Not meaning you, but breeders who do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Dogs, unless they're total spazzes &/or idiots, largely put their teeth exactly where they want to & do with 'em exactly as they intend. An occasional accidental nip/tag, sure, but to be routinely bitten while training, to experience face bites, crushing bites & deep punctures is unlikely to be accident following accident upon accident. Is he that inept with his teeth? I highly doubt it. IF that's what you want then cooool, he's your dog, but why make excuses for him?


Well, I don't have any deep punctures, open wounds, or broken bones and not a single scar. I'm not sure why you need to exaggerate things that do not even concern you? Not a single bite, ever, occurred outside of agitation work (which is controlled by someone else) or as anything other than missing a toy. He is not inept, quite the contrary. It is exactly what I want. I've encouraged him to chase, bite, and tug toys so that is exactly what he does and if my finger gets in the way, that's my problem, not yours. I do not demand absolute compliance during play nor bite inhibition with *toys*. The occassional nip/tag is exactly what I've described so I'm not sure why you are making into something that it's not if you have no experience with the dog and the training methods. I've yet to use a Band Aid for a bite/nip. You're making it sound as though I'm presenting a toy with my left hand and he's ripping my right hand off.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lies you've repeatedly disparaged the CGC test as absurdly easy. Your past remarks indicate that just about any dog should easily pass. Given your views on it, I'm surprised you now present it as proof of anything.

And I'm not implying Nikon isn't well mannered. (Your other dogs are irrelevant to the discussion. No, I'm NOT saying they're irrelevant). YOU implied that anyone seeking different behavior from their dog wanted a dog that was 'super docile, low energy with no prey drive & no interest in toys'. Again, there is a huge gap b/w a dog that bites the handler whenever they train & this low energy couch potato you've postulated as the alternative.

Handler bites should be rare. Face bites non-existent. Regardless of what level the dog trains to, he should respect the owner/handler. IF he's that careless with his teeth, he's not showing the necessary restraint & respect. JMO. As we've both stated, he's your dog & it's your training program.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lies, my comments are based on nothing but YOUR remarks. They're not exaggerations. They were YOUR words. Own 'em.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Have no clue what you mean


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ruby if she does not have a problem with how she trains her dog why do you? What was this thread about anyway?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> YOU implied that anyone seeking different behavior from their dog wanted a dog that was 'super docile, low energy with no prey drive & no interest in toys'.


Huh? I'm beyond confused where this is coming from or going..... but yeah, I guess I would agree that a high energy, high prey drive dog with a lot of interest in toys is going to chase, bite, and tug 'em.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Lies, my comments are based on nothing but YOUR remarks. They're not exaggerations. They were YOUR words. Own 'em.


Well, saying that my dog bit my uncle was not anything I said so can only be some kind of exaggeration.... You are just making all sorts of inferences based on one post that was mostly directed at Wayne and our style of conversation (but on this board it no longer puts in the reply who we are replying to?). Or skipping over the "But these are just accidental bites, like missing the toy/target." Why don't you go around crucifying everyone who's GSDs have actually bit someone else outside of the context of toys and done some damage? Because that would not be me or any dog I'd own.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> Jane, they're probably 'great dogs' however great/nice/wonderful are such generic descriptors. Detailed info provides a better view into what one can/should expect from the dog. Upon reading Lies original post, I realized it was perhaps the 1st in depth post I'd read that relayed detailed & 'hard' info on any of the breeder's actual dogs. IMO, a dearth of detailed info & a wealth of general info can lead people to make tragically wrong choices when deciding on a breeder, breeder or individual dog.
> 
> Lies, I'm not upset. Why do you think otherwise? You're happy with Nikon's behaviour. As he's your dog, that's your call. Personally, I think you make too many excuses for him. Dogs, unless they're total spazzes &/or idiots, largely put their teeth exactly where they want to & do with 'em exactly as they intend. An occasional accidental nip/tag, sure, but to be routinely bitten while training, to experience face bites, crushing bites & deep punctures is unlikely to be accident following accident upon accident. Is he that inept with his teeth? I highly doubt it. IF that's what you want then cooool, he's your dog, but why make excuses for him?


She hasn't made excuses for him. She has been very frank that he does this because she allows him to. Several very experienced people have posted the same thing; it is because of how he is TRAINED.

Puppies come to us all mouth. They have to be TRAINED that teeth don't go on skin. They have to be TRAINED to be carful when they grab the ball even when they are excited. 

They are accidents in the sense that the dog was not intending harm. I have a biter (Moose), and trust me, when a dog intends to bite you it isn't like what Lies described in any of her posts. 

To blame this on the breeder is really far fetched. I certainly hope that Trish (Bison's breeder) doesn't get blamed for all my training choices/mistakes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lookit the out of control doggy mauling me...here's the context of how he got my chin. I don't really know if it was a "bite" or the outside of the teeth or what, but it hurt (did not break skin and was not visible). Given my level of klutz I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner! Advice is welcome. The video is three months old so the criteria is different now (more complete retrieve w/ finish) but you get the idea.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

atravis said:


> Considering most of your post directed at me was more of a tantrum, I'll only address 1 thing:
> 
> Kody The Boy Wonder and Licorice Rush were two labs to make Sch3. Teversal Kodi and Kaiser Max are two Bernese Mountain Dogs to title. Its fairly well known that Sheila Booth titled a Standard Poodle.


No you didn't adress even one thing. I asked you about dogs in the last 5 years and you brought up Labs that were around a decade ago and didn't name any Goldens. The BMDs you are talking about is one dog by the way, not two. With sport being in such a sorry state you should be able to find plenty right?

BTW still waiting for the names or videos of those civil ring dogs.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

What in the world has happened to this thread? ...


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks for posting the video. That was interesting. We haven't started working on retrieves yet. Looks like fun. Just curious why you don't use a release command before dropping the ball or allowing him to go after it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do that now and have been for the past two months or so (so it's like bring, hold, aus.....ok, have to fade the hold command). After the out he waits for "OK!" with the ball drop, so I either have him wait a bit longer in front (to not anticipate the finish or the ball with the out), or finish, or finish and then heel forward a few steps (to not anticipate a ball with with finish). At that point in the video, I was simply rewarding the firm, calm hold and not the out behavior even though I'm asking for it so I waited until I liked the hold. Initially I said "OK!" and the ball dropped but he'd still be holding the dowel and then the ball would drop on his head, it looked awkward and confusing. Hypothetically you should be able to mark and reward without the out, but when I was using food and clicker and just clicked and let him drop the dowel it was always landing on my toes and annoyed me so I started asking for the out in my hands right away since his out with anything BUT toys is good and didn't require any real training with the backchaining. I think he also cues on my body, when I release the ball I back away (hard to see pronounced in the video but I think in that vid there is one time where I out him and don't drop the ball and he stays put because I didn't move, likewise if I started lean back with the dowel in his mouth I predict he'd drop it and come at me for the ball without the out or OK command).


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I do that now and have been for the past two months or so (so it's like bring, hold, aus.....ok, have to fade the hold command). After the out he waits for "OK!" with the ball drop, so I either have him wait a bit longer in front (to not anticipate the finish or the ball with the out), or finish, or finish and then heel forward a few steps (to not anticipate a ball with with finish). At that point in the video, I was simply rewarding the firm, calm hold and not the out behavior even though I'm asking for it so I waited until I liked the hold. Initially I said "OK!" and the ball dropped but he'd still be holding the dowel and then the ball would drop on his head, it looked awkward and confusing. Hypothetically you should be able to mark and reward without the out, but when I was using food and clicker and just clicked and let him drop the dowel it was always landing on my toes and annoyed me so I started asking for the out in my hands right away since his out with anything BUT toys is good and didn't require any real training with the backchaining.


Makes sense, thanks.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Boy, this thread is just all OVER the place. What I want to know is...what was playing on Lies TV? I watched the dog for a while and then got distracted by the TV set. 
BTW, after some rather significant dental work, I am not one to be putting anything up by my face for the dog to come get. Although the dental work was not from a dog grabbing a toy, it was a dog that did it, and.... one rather enthusiastic dog almost opened up my jugular grabbing for the toy. I felt his teeth brush my neck and kind of saw white and part of my life pass before my eyes. 
Lies, wear a hockey mask if you are going to be doing that stuff. Protect those choppers.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess this is the thread to bash dogs/breeders/dog sport venues!

LOL I was trying to remember what that was too, on the TV but I have no idea, sorry! 

Luckily the ball is no longer under the chin, I've survived the retrieve with one chomp/nip/tag/whatever, no blood, no scar. I like how it looks so far and I'd gladly take a few more accidental nips for the same result.

DH has been trying some helper work and we both keep joking about having no deductible and full health insurance coverage from Jan-July '10 so we can take more risks.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I lost the ball under the chin after Annabelle jumped up and loosened a tooth.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Where were breeders bashed...I guess they probably were somewhere in there...to me this thread just seems a lot like dogs that are marking their territory


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

RubyTuesday said:


> Handler bites should be rare. Face bites non-existent. Regardless of what level the dog trains to, he should respect the owner/handler. IF he's that careless with his teeth, he's not showing the necessary restraint & respect. ........


Though I am more permissive than I should be I totally agree with the above comment.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lies, I never said your dog bit your uncle. According to your post, Nikon bit you while you were talking to your uncle. How did you infer differently from anything I've posted? 

Nor am I blaming or crucifying the breeder. That's a truly disingenuous statement given the number of heated threads & unflattering posts made about a plethora of breeders people have no interest in beyond criticizing! It's reasonable to raise questions regarding an experienced owners actual experiences with her dog.

Within context, aggression isn't necessarily bad or inappropriate, however some people seek/need much more of it than others. This is an important consideration for anyone seeking family or companion dogs. Where should interested puppy buyers expect this breeder's dogs to fall within an 'aggression spectrum'? How low are the threshholds, how easily triggered or reactive should they expect the dogs to be? Note, these are questions, NOT conclusions. Nor is any particular answer 'bad', it might simply indicate which homes are better suited to the dogs.

There's a thread devoted to this breeder by an interested puppy buyer. I haven't posted my questions or Lies' remarks on that thread b/c I don't want to give the interested buyer a possibly unwarranted poor impression of the breeder. Please note that's a greater courtesy than many here have shown other breeders.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lisa, I'm more permissive than I should be in many ways but I do have a few inviolate rules. I've always found that dogs (& kids) know what you're truly serious about.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You have made statements about events not concerning you that are simply false.

"At least 2 of the bites were not while training."

What's disingenuous is labeling this "aggression". Go into the injuries thread. Are all those dogs "aggressive" too? Maybe you should warn people about all those breeders? Those people are talking about scars, stitches, surgeries, dental work....I've never had anything like that with handling dogs, not even a band aid on my finger. 

I do not understand the obsession with my dog, it's baffling... like Holland said, why do you care so much about how I train my dogs? You are making assumptions about dogs when your issue should only be with me. I like to be honest and transparent about how I train my dogs and our strengths and weaknesses. Why don't you share how you train your dogs and all the mistakes you've made so that everyone else can publicly criticize? Notice how no one agrees with you except for a few people that disagree with the sport and training methods on principle, and there are plenty of people here who KNOW my dog and have trained with me. If you would like to offer some constructive criticism or advice we are all ears....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

RubyTuesday said:


> Lisa, I'm more permissive than I should be in many ways but I do have a few inviolate rules. I've always found that dogs (& kids) know what you're truly serious about.


Vala is rather "oral" during obedience, but she knew I was not going to tolerate her biting me in the chest while doing the flip finish.  I do know she is a great incentive to elminate the extra "me" that I gained around the middle during the winter.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> I do have a few inviolate rules


Do share. Maybe we all agree more than we think....

I do not tolerate


Jumping around at me - I can't stand being jumped on either out of excitement like when I come home, during training if I'm holding a toy, or any jumping/rearing up while heeling. The only exception is what I have trained and ask for ("paws up" paws up on my chest, "touch" touch my hand with your nose even if I'm holding it six feet in the air, "OK" with a ball under the chin). Four on the floor unless we're doing agility.
Grabbing for toys - when the toy is in play it's fair game and if I'm in the way that's my problem, but once I bring the toy back into me and/or give another command, no more grabbing and four feet on the floor. NO jumping at the toy doing a finish or recall, seen too many black eyes.
Leaking - no whining and high pitched barking while we are heeling.
Getting up during a long down.
Chewing on equipment (dumbells, agility jumps, sleeves, etc).
Being really chewy with a tug (usually if this happens there's something about the toy that's just not working so we use something else).
Running off with a toy, or not bringing it all the way back to me.
Really bad targeting - the handle instead of the tug, string instead of the ball, tail instead of the Kong.
Being grabby or nippy with treats - if it's not gentle enough for a child to do than it's not acceptable.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

lhczth said:


> .  I do know she is a great incentive to elminate the extra "me" that I gained around the middle during the winter.


Thank you for the giggle! I can totally understand:laugh:.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lisa, 

Stark tried to take my "winter belly" away from me yesterday and I have the bruise marks to prove it.

Of course it was a handler error - I was teasing him with the ball on a string, brought it into my stomache instead of to the side when I released him "okay" and he jumped and got me. 

Who needs a tummy tuck?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vala has been abusing me badly lately. I am covered in bruises. That belly is taking WAY too long to go away. Told a friend today that I am going to wear Kevlar from now on.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Who needs liposuction when you have Vala?!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Was playing frisbee with Ror today jumping off the dock into the water she got super excited and bit right threw my finger instead of retrieving the frisbee she came back to make sure I was ok so we lost the frisbee...not sure if its broken if it is its my third broken finger last time I shut my finger in the garage...the ER is called Hawkes (thats her uncle with out the E) ER and I live in the Finger Lakes


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lately with the warm weather, I'm getting scratched a lot. I hate wearing close toed shoes around the house and usually just slip on some sandals or crocs for impromtu obedience but always pay with scratches and gashes to my feet. I should know better and boots or good shoes is the rule at club but I never learn...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

:rofl: Samba

Lies, try working obedience in shorts when you encourage very physical play as a reward.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

Does this count as a tag? One of the reasons I hate longlines in the warm weather. I swear they should have warning labels on longlines.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

OWWWWWW!
Is that a raw rub/burn from the long line? Yikes!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OMG Denise that looks like a third degree burn


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ouch! I had one like that last fall on my wrist ... took forever to heal!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Ouch! I had one like that last fall on my wrist ... took forever to heal!


Did someone tie the rope too tight Jason? roflmao


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh Doc, Doc, Doc ... 

If you must know, it involved an inattentive handler, a long line held very loosely, a dastardly squirrel, and a GSD with very poor impulse control ...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

OUCH!!!

My sister got a rope burn like that on her wrist last summer.. she took Stark out and wasn't paying attention to squirrels either... Lesson learned.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Oh Doc, Doc, Doc ...
> 
> If you must know, it involved an inattentive handler, a long line held very loosely, a dastardly squirrel, and a GSD with very poor impulse control ...


I like my explanation better! :crazy:


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

gagsd said:


> OWWWWWW!
> Is that a raw rub/burn from the long line? Yikes!


Yep, had the line on my young male and forgot about where it was, threw the ball and he took off like a bat out of ****. I knew it was going happen but it was too late to do anything but watch it happen, It was either that or my male taking me down and possibly breaking something. Needless to say I will not be using a longline unless I am using it during a long down.

I work in surgery so I have had a few docs look at it and it is a 3rd degree burn and it is healing and no infection.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I hate that instant feeling of doom when you realize you are not going to miss that long line! I know of one fellow who was jerked off his feet and knocked unconscious. Everyone gathered around and his dog was none to happy with the people around his handler!


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## Heidifarm (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm all too familiar with that feeling! I had a burn that looked just like that one - went across both my ankles! I wasn't even training at the time, I was on vacation with my dog and had her long line on to play. I did get infected and had to go to the emergency room while on vacation. I was on antibiotics for about a month! My feet and ankles swelled up and it hurt so bad! 2 years later I still have a nice scar. I tell people it's Heidi's permanent mark on me 

In training I'm so paranoid about that long line! And I'm afraid to wear shorts even when it's hot just because of this!


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