# To Spay or Not to Spay



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Me: Former K-9 trainer
GSD Ownership Experience: Previously had 1 male, then a male and female that bred - all were intact
Current GSD: Female - 6 months, intact

This will probably raise hairs in two camps, but I am looking for opinions on whether or not to spay my current female. While I understand the position of rescues to always spay to control unwanted litters, and I also understand breeders who hardly ever spay, I am more concerned with the true welfare of my bitch if I spay her, and my sanity if I keep her intact.

My Specific Concerns

1) While it may be true that spaying can reduce the instances of certain diseases such as mammary tumors, etc., I feel that completely removing sex organs will adversely affect the development of the dog. I'm talking about bone structure, physical proportions, mental development, the works. And, I think that the benefits, as far as reduction in diseases or conditions goes, I believe that it highly overrated and emphasized my the pro-spay camps. Am I wrong here?

2) I'm concerned with incontinence, as well, as a result of spaying. Any truth to this?

3) Almost every spayed female I've seen, regardless of breed appears to develop a wider "middle". I am all too-aware that most dog owners seem to live by the overfeed/under-exercise mantra, but that's not what I'mtalking about. I'm referring to the structure of the rib cage itself. It seems to me that altered dogs appear to develop more of a barrel to their rib cages. 

4) My bitch has incredible prey drive, and from my experience is extremely quick in both mind and body. She would make for an excellent K-9, tracking, or other utility dog. I am concerned that spaying her will affect these qualities. Although she is currently being raised as a family dog, I have been sure to help her hone and develop many of her natural instincts, as I am also contemplating some type of utility work for her in the future. 

5) She comes from a long line of accomplished ancestors and the breeder I got her from is trying to encourage me to breed her, because she is the last in the line, and in addition to the performance of her line, her line was also developed for incredible colors and markings. If I was single I would probably be all for it, but since I have a family with two youngsters, 12 and 8, and have my own business, I think breeding her will stretch me quite thin. I am also concerned with running through her heat cycles. The only female I had in the past was exceptionally clean. She never let anything drip, so I really didn't have to worry about a mess in the house. She and her male companion were also protection K-9s, and housed as such, so I really had no problems with other males coming around for some "fun". Because of my fortunate circumstances when I owned my previous female, I am not sure what to expect during heat cycles with my current bitch. Things like length of cycle, how much of a mess, caring for her during those times, diapers, etc. If none of that was a concern and spaying REALLY was better for her health-wise, I'd spay her, but to me, ANY open surgery I would think would be hard on a living being's system, not to mention removing the organs that to me, make a being who he/she is, does that make sense? Or, am I over-analyzing?

Any and all comments and opinions would be most welcome.


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## Fransheska (Sep 11, 2008)

in my honest opinion..with 2 young children i would not even think about breeding if it was me. shes a first time mom,if she rejects a puppy, needs an emergency c section (which are veryvery expensive) 
if she doesnt care for the pups properly then you are doing ROUND THE CLOCK feedings for maybe up to 15 puppies. 

plus the proper testing. shes only 6 months old, the hip testing cant be done before 2 years i believe.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Point taken, and my concerns exactly. But, I am still not sure of whether or not to spay her, given the reasons I listed above. Any thoughts on those concerns? I mean, I could keep her intact without spaying.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

What about the best of BOTH worlds. Wait until she is mature to spay her? Let her have a couple of heat cycles and spay her after she is 18-36 months? ONLY if you can make 100% certain that there will be no unwanted litters which means the entire family has to be SUPER careful for the month or so that she is in heat 2 - 3 times a year. 

As far as incontinence- wives tail if the surgery is done by a competent vet. At least in my expereince. I have two spayed females- neither have an issue with this. Both were spayed later (5-6 years of age). 

Weight- Lakota (Husky) DID gain weight after her spay but I was stupid and did it when she had to have a c-section. I think that timing messed up her hormones and it took forever to fix it. Tika is the same buff weight she was post op as she was before. Nothing whatsoever changed about her except she no longer has extra crate/confinement time when she was in heat. Personalilty, drive, energy, weight- never changed. 

As far as females and keeping themselves clean. Well not every female is meticulous at keeping their hygene as it should be. I have littermates. One is pretty darn clean yet not obsessive. The other...... well not exactly. I have seen less mess in some horror flicks.









Tika pre-spay










Post spay (9 years young)



















Breeding is not something that should be done half hearted and without a TON of research. It sounds as if your life is full now and a litter requires a LOT of work. There is the prebreeding stuff like health clearances, training, titling/working her, having her evaluated by independent/unbiased third parties. Then there is selection of the male. Some people spend YEARS trying to find the BEST possible male. Chances are this male will not be the one down the block. Then you either need to ship your female to the male or travel with her. Timing is of the essence so you may have to forgo some important family outing if your female comes into heat at the worst possible time- like a week before your two week vacation that you have planned MONTHS for. Then the actual litter requires 8 weeks of your time to raise, socialize, evaluate...... Then there is making sure that the pups are placed in the best possible home. Which means spending countless hours talking with perspective buyers. Having to weed out the ones that will definitely make a GREAT home and those that will make a HORRIBLE home and those in the middle- are you willing to let your girls pups go to an "ok" family instead of a stellar one? What if you can't find good homes for ALL of the pups? What if something happens to the perfect family and life circumstances change and they can no longer care for the pup/adult dog by now? Are you willing to take them back- unconditionally or send them to the local pound or an already over exerted rescue to be their problem to deal with? 

A lot to think about.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

you're right... this topic may raise some hairs in both camps and from what i've noticed in the past - these threads typically get pretty lengthy and in the end you're better educated, but still in the same position of to do or not to do. both camps have very good arguments either way.

my personal opinion on your situation is to spay her. if you are concerned about her development, then wait a year or so, as long as you can fully protect her from accidental breeding. you'll know very soon what its like to have a female in heat and if you can handle it.

i for one do not spay/neuter for health reasons. my current dogs are rescues, but prior to that - all of our family dogs have been altered for convenience, and at a variety of ages (1yr, 5yrs, 8mo, etc...)

ive known of intact females that had incontinence issues... i've also never had an incontinence issue with any of my spayed females.

my feelings as far as your breeder goes, is that if they believe her to be a breeding prospect and she's the last of this long line of greats, surely they could have kept her back as well... as many breeders do (???). either way, she isnt breedable until 2yrs old... so the answer seems to be to wait until that time. like i said before, this will also take away any developmental concerns that you have.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:She comes from a long line of accomplished ancestors and the breeder I got her from is trying to encourage me to breed her, because she is the last in the line, and in addition to the performance of her line, her line was also developed for incredible colors and markings.


Okay, but what about people who would be objective and not affected by kennel blindness? If they work in schutzhund dogs, do working dog handlers, your TD, the helper, etc, all clamor for a pup from your bitch because she is such a great dog for all phases on and OFF the home field? If she's a show dog, again, same thing but different examples- do objective judges and knowledgeable people comment on her structure, has her temperament been proven to be fantastic, and no one has questioned anything? Be honest- has there been anything in her training/raising, from the day you've received her until now, that would make you take pause and really think? There are LOTS of great dogs out there with little nerve issues that would be just enough to pull them out of the gene pool. Unfortunately, some breeders are so darn kennel blind that they'll breed anything that they've fallen in love with even if they have toothpick structure or flighty nerves. Brutal honesty is a good thing here.







Also, "incredible colors and markings" are meaningless. We're talking a working breed here, one that is under fire by HOAs and insurance companies for questionable temperament. Color and markings is nice, but a breeding program should be built on health and TEMPERAMENT with colors and markings as a nice side effect. If your bitch is rock solid in temperament and health and looks pretty, that's great, but she shouldn't be put on a pedestal for looks and pedigree alone.

If she is spayed and is fully grown, that won't affect her abilities. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=913624&page=1 That's a great post by people experienced in SAR and PSDs that detail what they consider high drive for searching. If you'd like her evaluated for police work, take her to a good evaluator and they will know how to test her. Often, what we see as "great drive" is a washout within two minutes. 

Personally, I would continue training and think about spaying at perhaps 18-24 months. By then, I would know the dog quite well and probably would have lots of good opinions from knowledgeable, uninterested (unbiased) people who have like goals and I could make a sound breeding decision based on what I know of the dog. But just because a dog is kept intact, doesn't mean it needs to breed. She'll be perfectly fine if she never has a litter of pups. I would spay at full adulthood just because I don't think I want to deal with heats twice a year, but with males I would not neuter unless medically necessary.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM I would spay at full adulthood just because I don't think I want to deal with heats twice a year, but with males I would not neuter unless medically necessary.


That is the way I feel also. I plan on spaying my 9 month old pup at around 2yo. Reason being, to be honest, I don't want to have to deal with 10+ years of heat cycles.

With males, I am perfectly capable of keeping them from reproducing, so I see no need to neuter them. (I have had several intact males and NONE of them have EVER added to the dog population.)


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Amaruq: Thanks for the response, and pictures! Regarding the breeding - I should've mentioned that the only way I would breed is through the same breeder. That would eliminate the headaches you mentioned. This breeder is a "full" breeder, with 40+ dogs on-hand at any given time. I would not even consider going out and trying to find a stud on my own. It's not my line of business, and I'm not insterested in making it my line of business!  With all the conveniences the breeder offers, I could even have the pups whelped there, too, but of course, there still is the 8-week period of nuturing. weaning, socializing, as you mentioned. Reagsing spaying: what do YOU personally think about spaying BEFORE first heats vs. waiting until after one or two heats? Also, re: the wives tale of incontinence, how the heck do you know whether or not your vet is competent, you know what I mean?

Camerafodder: Thanks for the comment aabout intact dogs with incontinence. But, what did you mean by you "do not spay/neuter for health reasons"? Can you please elaborate?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Personally I do not like the early spays. I understand the reasons that rescues/shelters do this. If a "responsible" dog owner that is 100% certain that they can prevent unwanted litters I think allowing the female to be in heat 1-3 times is better as the hormones will help with the mental and physical development. Tika never came into heat until she was 13 months. 

If you DO decide to spay her after she has had a cycle or two (or three) definately wait until 4-8 weeks AFTER she is done to give the hormones time to settle.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

As far as the vet it really depends. Some are skilled surgeons and some are better at office visits. Might not hurt to ask for some references. 

I personally prefer dealing with smaller scale hobby breeders who only have a few dogs (some even fewer dogs than me







) because they tend to KNOW their dogs on a more personal level. They have trained them themselves and can tell me in detail about each dog. That is my personal preference and I am not knocking your breeder. I personally could not just ship *my* dog back to them to breed and raise a litter but I am also anal about who cares for my dogs.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:This breeder is a "full" breeder, with 40+ dogs on-hand at any given time.


Good grief, that's insane. Please do correct me if I am wrong but that sounds like a full on puppy mill...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

as far as having a competent vet - i take it to mean, your regular and trusted vet with years of history & experience, etc etc, and not just the mobile spay and neuter van down the road who's offering a $29.99 new years deal. not to dis those vets entirely, but ive heard too many horror stories of "things" being left behind or put back incorrectly etc...



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> Camerafodder: Thanks for the comment aabout intact dogs with incontinence. But, what did you mean by you "do not spay/neuter for health reasons"? Can you please elaborate?


sorry, i can see how that seems unclear

i meant that health reasons (preventing cancer, etc) are not my main motivations for doing the surgery - so i dont pay too much attention to the rumors, risks, or statistics. all of my dogs will be spayed or neutered at some point regardless, so its an irrelevant topic for me. i spay and neuter for convenience and peace of mind. and then of course, its now the law in california... however... i dont agree with doing it at 4 months, so i will likely just sit quietly beneath the radar until i'm ready.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: 1) While it may be true that spaying can reduce the instances of certain diseases such as mammary tumors, etc., I feel that completely removing sex organs will adversely affect the development of the dog. I'm talking about bone structure, physical proportions, mental development, the works.


Although you will hear people say things like that there is exactly zero scientific evidence that it's the case. Removing the sex organs prior to puberty can sometimes mean the dog grows a fraction of an inch taller than it otherwise might have. Very very early spaying can mean slightly less pronounced external genatalia. There has never any study that showed it affects mental development and a great many working dogs as well as dogs competing at high levels in agility, tracking, herding, obedience etc. are altered.


> Quote:And, I think that the benefits, as far as reduction in diseases or conditions goes, I believe that it highly overrated and emphasized my the pro-spay camps. Am I wrong here?


I would agree that the "health benefits" to neutering are overrated. I see a lot of hoopla about them but honestly, I think the main reasons to neuter aren't health or cancer related. In the case of spaying it's a different story. Spaying really does reduce the risk of mammary cancer and eliminates the risk of pyometra. Both are common health threats to female dogs. The younger you spay your dog, the greater the benefits in terms of reduction in the chance of mammary cancer. Spaying her midlife is not nearly as healthy as spaying her younger for that particular issue, although you still get the anti-pyometra benefit. 

Doing rescue and working at and with shelters, I process literally hundreds of dogs. Mammary cancer in older intact female dogs is not rare. And working at the vet clinic, I discovered that oops pregnancies, even in dogs owned by basically responsible people, aren't that rare either.



> Quote:2) I'm concerned with incontinence, as well, as a result of spaying. Any truth to this?


Statistically, yes. There is elevated risk of incontinence if older female dogs who are spayed versus those that are intact. However, that's not to say that your dog will ever have that problem. None of mine ever have, including several extreme seniors who were spayed at 6 months. 


> Quote: 3) Almost every spayed female I've seen, regardless of breed appears to develop a wider "middle". I am all too-aware that most dog owners seem to live by the overfeed/under-exercise mantra, but that's not what I'mtalking about. I'm referring to the structure of the rib cage itself. It seems to me that altered dogs appear to develop more of a barrel to their rib cages.


No. I think what you're seeing is in fact fat, but it's the kind of fat that is under the muscle wall so it just makes the dog look barrel chested. There is no reason for a spayed dog to be fat and if they are properly maintained they will not have a wider rib cage than a comparable intact dog. 


> Quote: 4) My bitch has incredible prey drive, and from my experience is extremely quick in both mind and body. She would make for an excellent K-9, tracking, or other utility dog. I am concerned that spaying her will affect these qualities. Although she is currently being raised as a family dog, I have been sure to help her hone and develop many of her natural instincts, as I am also contemplating some type of utility work for her in the future.


No impact. Many many SAR dogs are spayed are as many Schutzhund dogs. 

And I think that last one has been addressed sufficiently but my basic take is similar to Diana's: I would not recommend breeding your bitch unless she's been independently evaluated as breed-worthy. She should be titled in a GSD-relevant venue such as Schutzhund and pass all health clearances at a bare minimum. Even at that point, you would still need a lot more info to know whether she's really going to add anything besides more German Shepherds to the breed.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for the tip to wait until the hormones settle after the first heat. By "early spay", I take you mean before any heat cycles, correct? Any tips on what to watch for, as far as knowing when the cycle starts, and when she needs to wear diapers in the house, and such? I mean, will she drip the whole time, etc. ?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqI personally prefer dealing with smaller scale hobby breeders who only have a few dogs (some even fewer dogs than me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This breeder is indeed very different. She is a single person caring for and training EVERY single one of the dogs one on one. Personally, I don't see how she does it, but on my first visit, she introduced me to every dog, and every dog was trained, and every dog had its own special "trick", too. You could see she knew the dogs well and had an individual relationship with each one.

She's also only 1 hour and 45 minutes away from me, which helps if I do decide to do the breeding.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote:This breeder is a "full" breeder, with 40+ dogs on-hand at any given time.
> ...


Not necessarily. Many "show" breeders have that many dogs too. I would simply question how well they can personally know their "stock". But that wasn't the OP question so.....I digress.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I suspected that alot of the "good for your dog's health to spay/neuter" stuff was hype. They don't say what about it is BAD!

FWIW, it is not yet the law in ALL of California, only in So Cal. I'm up above Sacramento, and it hasn't made its way up here, yet.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I have an spayed mixed breed, so I'll just adress some of the questions that I feel I have personal experience with:

Drives and energy:

My mixed breed was a rescue. She was totally nuts and out of control. Spaying here did not diminish her energy and zest for life. In fact, my efforts to train some sense into her got me involved in Schutzhund. Not being from controled, working-line dog breeding background, she does not have the same drives and intensity in her work as the other club working dogs, but still has enough to do the training and to have fun at it, and to put on a good show. We completed an AD with nary a hiccup. Prior to her Schutzhund days, the vet commented on her great muscle tone, adding that in his practice he rarely see large dogs with good muscle tone as few get enough excercise (sad!). So spaying didn't tone down or soften up my mixed breed, I doubt that it would do anything of the sort to your bitch.

Spay incontinence:

Some dogs will develop spay incontinence after a spay. This can occur anywhere between 6 months following a spay to years and years later. Estrogen plays a role in helping to keep the bladder sphincter muscles tight, and sometimes when spayed, the drop in estrogen production in a female will cause leakage. This leakage most commonly occurs when the dog is sleeping or resting, and the dog is not aware of the problem. 

My dog developed spay incontinence a few months after her spay. I don't know how common this is as I have never heard or it before, and of the hundreds of members on this board, I believe there is maybe one or two other members here with females that have spay incontinence. 

It bothered me greatly that a procedure that I had chosen to have done on my dog had created other health problems, and wished that I had known about the chances of developing spay incontinence so that I could have made a more informed decision about getting her spayed - but after careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that even if I had known of her chances of becoming incontinent, I still would have chosen to have her spayed - wanting to take away any chance of an accidental litter to greatly outweigh the inconvenience of having to occasionally clean up after my dog. 

Spay incontinence is traditionally treated as a disease with either estrogen supplementation or with a drug called Proin (?). The estrogen supplementation works well and is safe, the Proin works even better but has long-term health concerns.

The estrogen supplementation didn't work for my dog, and after some research chose to not treat with Proin. I did not want to compromise her health over the minor inconvenience of having to occasionally clean up after her. As it turned out, I switched my girl to a full raw diet, and as a surprise benefit, it just about completely cleared up her incontinence. Keeta may have one accident about once every three months, which is really just about nothing.

Would I spay Keeta now knowing that she WOULD develop Spay Incontinence? Yes - for it is not a spay problem, or a medical problem, but a nutrional problem - and unwanted pups are much more of a problem than the very occasional leaking she experiences.

I think that others have given you very good advice about the other questions. Never noticed the wider chest that you mention. Has anyone else?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Ack! I'm sorry, but that really doesn't sound good.









I mean, let's give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is doing everything she can right and she has no job and does _nothing_ but work with the dogs - if she sleeps 7 hours a day and spends 2 hours eating, showering, and doing non-dog related things, that means she can spend, AT MOST about 20 minutes each day one on one with each dog. And from that time, she's got to do maintenance stuff like feed, bathe, nails, brush etc. 

If she has a job or any other demands on her time, like a family, or recreation, then that time goes down. 

I work from home and spend pretty much 24/7 doing dog stuff and I have a hard time spending the time I know I need to with my 4 dogs and fosters. Multiply those numbers by several orders of magnitude? There's no way.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for all the info. FWIW, I would definitely NOT breed her without OFA certs and the like for the very reason you mention.

My sister is a vet tech, and highly advises on spaying before the first heat for the reasons you mentioned, too. But, I can't help but wonder if that's too early, should I decide to spay at all. And, time is running shorter being that she's 6 months this coming week.

But, Amaraq's Tika didn't first cycle until 1 year old. How common is that, I wonder? What is the average age of a GSD upon first cycle?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: good for your dog's health to spay/neuter" stuff was hype. They don't say what about it is BAD!


Some people do, some people don't. I consider myself fairly moderate on the issue and very informed on the topic. I'm in rescue but my first priority is my dog's health. I'm not going to advocate a procedure that I think would harm them. The health benefits to spaying prior to the first heat cycle or as soon after it as possible are very real. There are other reasons not to do it. You have to find the balance that you feel comfortable with, but please don't discount the weight of scientific and medical evidence that spaying really does have benefits as hype because honestly they're not. 

Do you have access to online medical journals? I could probably refer you to some studies. They make for dry reading but at least they're unbiased info.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=1&Number=903954

If you look here, around the middle towards the end, I posted links to studies that showed some negative effects of spay/neuter. I was surprised how many studies showed negative effects of s/n.



> Quote:the vet commented on her great muscle tone, adding that in his practice he rarely see large dogs with good muscle tone as few get enough excercise (sad!). So spaying didn't tone down or soften up my mixed breed, I doubt that it would do anything of the sort to your bitch.


I wish I had the site bookmarked, but an owner of true working pit bulls showed a gorgeous set of photos of one of his bitches on the springpole. She was MUSCULAR (like, "move over, Rambo" muscular) and super-athletic, and spayed. He posted the photos to disprove the wives' tale that altered dogs get fat and lazy. They get fat because owners feed them too much and they get lazy because owners don't exercise them enough. 










Rescue (mix), neutered at approximately one year of age, shown here at approximately two years of age. He must be part cheetah. Anyway, neutering didn't affect him. He's still an athletic, pushy, stubborn, energetic, drivey butthead.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I just looked at those studies (thank you for posting studies! You know I love that!







)

But most of them actually seem to be saying that the benefits of altering outweigh the risk and while one of them showed a slight increase in incontinance from younger spays, I think you've got to look at that study in conjunction with the increase in mammary cancer with older spays and decide which risk is more important to you. There's nothing to say your dog will have either problem, it just comes down to playing the various odds.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

To answer the what age do they come into heat question....my older female did not come inot heat until she was 9 months old and my younger one did not come in until right at a year old. It varies from dog to dog, but I think the average age for most GSDs is roughly 9 months.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Pupresq, I wonder if they take into account the risk of becoming pregnant, something that is a huge risk. If a bitch were to be kept intact and never bred, I wonder if they figure the risks differently? I do think it's more risky to keep a female intact than a male (not including the breeding part), but keeping a bitch intact for two or three heats and then spaying does very little to diminish the risk of mammary cancer.

It's truly a case of "choose your poison." Personally, I do feel that the sex hormones do a lot more than just promote sex, but as with everything in life, there are always risks. 



> Quote:ANY open surgery I would think would be hard on a living being's system, not to mention removing the organs that to me, make a being who he/she is, does that make sense?


Yes, it is hard, but they certainly do enough of these that surgery risks are quite acceptable. As to removing organs, there are plenty of people out there who have had organ removals (hysterectomies, kidney donors, etc) and live quite fine, I know a couple (donor organ recipient and organ removal) who haven't really noticed a difference. Dogs pretty much live in the moment as well; look at the dogs who are missing limbs and you'll see that they don't really seem to give a darn either way.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

She comes from a long line of accomplished ancestors and the breeder I got her from is trying to encourage me to breed her, because she is the last in the line, and in addition to the performance of her line, her line was also developed for incredible colors and markings. 







<span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style='font-size: 14pt'>If the line was that important then why didn't the breeder keep her for herself????</span></span>


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Allie, many breeders have sold off puppies at 8 weeks that didn't seem super stellar but ended up being the best in the litter and a great breeding prospect at full maturity. No breeder is ever 100% with placement decisions; if they were, keeping back prospects would be MUCH easier.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

do you have pictures of your dog I would love to see them.....
The coloring and such you are talking about....I know what the breeder says but have to researched the lines If you list them here the members her can tell you all about her 
I am for spaying etc at proper age if you are not breeding,,, Not all dogs are meant to be bred,, and I feel a breeder with 40 dogs is really insane how well cared for are they really? thats a lot of mouths to feed etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, Coming from the breeding camp, I would not spay the bitch until she is at least 24 months old, and not at all if the heat cycles are not unbearable for you. 

I personally find females a joy to handle, though they often will have their own set of quirks when it comes near to their cycle. With my lot, this is often just a loss of focus in training for about a week, not a big deal. They can also have false pregnancies. This is not a big deal if you KNOW that nothing got to your bitch. And if you have even an incling about breeding, you SHOULD know. 

Currently I have one spayed famale -- spayed at seven years and five that are intact. I am set up to ensure that my bitches are not bred unless I choose for that to happen. And the mess is a bit of spotting here and there and nothing I find repulsive. 

The jury is out about the temperament changes in bitches with respect to spaying. I have heard that one study suggested that spayed bitches are more aggressive. That certainly did not happen to my Arwen. I have also heard that some bitches lose interest in training after a spay. I have heard the opposite as well, and Arwen did not. 

About breeding, two years from now you will have a ten year old and a teenager. Maybe that is not such a bad situation for whelping and raising a litter. But taking her back and leaving her at this stress-filled time in a kennel situation to whelp and raise a litter of puppies is a grusome thought in my opinion. I could not even consider it. 

Sometimes a bitch is bred and the owners are unable to care for it one way or another and it goes to a breeder or a rescue and the puppies are whelped and raised and the bitch is fine. While the conditions are not ideal, sometimes it happens. NEVER should this be planned. 

So your breeder is 1 hour and 45 minutes away from you. If you choose to breed, then I would suggest progesterone testing, this is pricey. But when you think about it, you do not have a male to tell you when your bitch is ready. 

People think that you will drive your bitch to the dog, nature will take its course, and you will come away with a pregnant bitch. You could leave your bitch there if you trust the breeder to breed her to the dog of your choosing only. Otherwise, you will wait for the bitch to be "ready" often people go with days 9 and 11, only to have missed. 

Then you will muzzle your bitch and hold her while the dog's owner brings in the dog. If he IS interested, then she will hold your bitch up, while you hold her head and breeding happens. Then you will drive 1 1/2 hours back home, only to repeat this process, two to four times. Then you will have to continue to be vigilent at home with your bitch because she CAN produce a litter with more than one sire. 

I am not going to go into possible problems with pregnancy and whelping. Hopefully, you will use the two years before she is ready to breed to your advantage and you will know the common problems and symptoms. 

I would only do this if you do plan to have your bitch at home during the entire process. Your breeder may be able to help you to screen buyers and place puppies, but it sounds like she has her hands full with her own lot. 

She also probably has enough puppies to get owners for without yours to worry about. Would she sell your litter for you and just leave you with a puppy -- probably. She may sell your pups for $1500/pup and let you take all the expenses of careing for your bitch, health screenings, etc. That is a pretty sweet deal for her. Figure ten pups at $1500/per is 15k for eight weeks of work -- if she keeps your bitch. Remember she is taking care of 40+dogs of her own, so your bitch and pups will be fed and poop will be cleaned, but that's about all she has time for -- just trust me on that. 

No way would I let my bitch go through that. No way would I let my pups be raised that way. Sorry.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

There are many reasons this dog would be a good candidate for breeding, not just markings and color. I didn't want to get long-winded because the focus of the thread pertained to spaying side effects, and such. As I said, I am a former K9 trainer, and I know an outstanding dog when I see one, and I can honestly say that this bitch is definitely outstanding in all aspects. The ONLY thing wrong with this dog is in physical conformation, in that she often carries the "saber" in her tail slightly to the right. Of course, she's not yet 6 months so it could be something that works itself out, but then again, showing is not something I'm interested in, nor is it something I believe is an issue for breeding her.

I mentioned her drive because it is exceptional, as is her focus, temperament and ablity to learn. I've worked with many, MANY dogs, and one of my own former males I always thought was THE perfect K9 (protection, arrest, detain, and tracking dog), but by all accounts I have to admit that this bitch so far promises to exceed his capabilities, and that says alot because the male was so good he was even used to patrol INSIDE supermarkets in very bad areas when families with kids were shopping.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Take a look at this study:

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/spay_neuter_risks_benefits.aspx


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I've considered many of the things you've mentioned, and I agree that it is a big decision to breed. Luckily for me, I have a bit of experience with the breeding and whelping process myself, since my previous pair had a litter. This was many years ago, though.

As far as the breeder's involvement is concerned, I didn't mean I would leave her at the breeder's, either. I just mentioned that it was close enough to me, and that the breeder offered as much help.

The breeder would NOT take the entire proceeds. Most breeders I've talked to would take pick of the litter, of course, anything can be negotiated, and I would nail all this down WAY in advance of a possible breed-back process.

But, I thank you sincerely for chiming in here, because I do need to regard ALL aspects of this decision. The one thing I would hate to do is spay my bitch only to regret it later.

With that said, if I DO spay her, and introduce health problems because of the spay, I'll feel bad for my dog, and kick myself in the a$$ for the rest of my life, for having put her through a pretty-much unnecessary procedure, you know what I mean?

Of course, there is also the issue of keeping an intact female and dealing with cycles if I'm NOT going to breed her, and the studies that suggest that early spays (prior to full sexual maturity) reduces potential health issues later on. What most people/studies don't tell you is the NEGATIVE side effects of such as spay. (See the study I posted in previous post above.)

I know you're a breeder, but do you happen to have experience with an early spay vs. a later spay (the one you mentioned)?

Thanks again for the post.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootTake a look at this study:
> 
> http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/spay_neuter_risks_benefits.aspx


Now that's a good link that conveniently sums up all the other links I've found. Again, choose your poison. I honestly do dislike how the current trend is to spay/neuter anything that's furry and moves.

Good to hear she's a good prospect. If she's indeed a good prospect for police work, I'm sure K9 units would appreciate more good police dogs. There are too many out there that simply don't belong on the streets.

From the article: "An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases. For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in many (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds."

It's certainly easier to decide for the boys. If you are thinking of breeding her, then definitely keep her intact until maturity so you can make an informed decision. Did you check out the link I posted that had all the links to medical journals that studied sterilization in dogs? 

Honestly, I think if you spay her and she gets sick, you'll feel at fault, and if you keep her intact and she gets sick, you'll feel at fault. I would feel exactly the same myself if I made those decisions and so would many. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of unknowns so I think either decision you make will be right because you are clearly doing the research, and since you know your dog and her lines, you'll apply the research to your decision as best you can. That's all anyone can do at this point. When it comes to heavy hitters like cancer, everyone second-guesses decisions they've made that could have prevented it, but please know you would not be at fault.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry, I forgot that you said that you had whelped a litter. 

Often a stud dog owner will let you breed your bitch to their dog for a puppy or for the pick of the litter. I do not know what they would charge you for whelping and raising a litter. I would not do it for one puppy. It is a ton of work if you do it right, especially if that includes selling the puppies. This is why I was guessing that they would give you a puppy and sell the rest of them, keeping the proceeds. 

You have had a bitch before, and you are worried about dealing with heat cycles?

When I buy a dog, I buy the teeth, the tail, and the testicles. 
When I buy a bitch, I buy the teeth, the tail, and the uterine horns. My point is that spaying a bitch or neutering a dog because it is convenient is kind of irritating. If you do not want to deal with heat cycles, you should have bought a dog. But millions of people do it (speuter) all the time. I always figured that these people were pretty much brainwashed into believing that their life will be turned upside down by having an intact animal. So I am really shocked that there are people out there that have had intact bitches and are afraid of owning another. 

Owning an intact animal does not mean that you need to let them breed, ever. 

The only bitch I have ever spayed was Arwen and that was last Summer when she was seven. I spayed her while she was under sedation already for a C-Section. It was a mistake. The womb was large and had a lot of bleeders so she was out for a long time. I ended up losing the puppy the next day. 

What your study that you showed did not mention was the very real risks to your dogs immediate health/life if the spay surgery has complications. For instance, too much anesthetic can cause your bitch to have siezure episodes for the remainder of their life, or it may kill her. 

In my opinion, the hormones have more influence than just reproduction and speutering prior to reaching their full potential is inadviseable. After the animal is full grown, spaying out of convenience is unnecessary.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Take a look at this study:
> 
> http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/spay_neuter_risks_benefits.aspx


That one's not actually a study, it's an article about the issue. I think to really make a decision, you'd need to look at the primary literature (the studies it cites) and see what they say rather than let the author interpret them for you. 

But on balance, I think it's making similar points to the ones I did - that the health benefits of neutering are sometimes overstated, but that there are real health benefits to spaying if done early enough. It all comes down to playing the odds. My decisions were made after looking at the elevation of the lifetime risk of life threatening diseases by doing it or not doing it. For example, I find the reduction of risk of mammary cancer from spaying to be more compelling than the increase in risk of osteosarcoma from spaying. So, I spay.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootTake a look at this study:
> ...


Me, too, which is why I'm not sure I believe all the noise about how great altering is with no side effects.



> Quoteid you check out the link I posted that had all the links to medical journals that studied sterilization in dogs?


I was just about to do that, and will after I address yours and another post.



> Quote:Honestly, I think if you spay her and she gets sick, you'll feel at fault, and if you keep her intact and she gets sick, you'll feel at fault. I would feel exactly the same myself if I made those decisions and so would many. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of unknowns so I think either decision you make will be right because you are clearly doing the research, and since you know your dog and her lines, you'll apply the research to your decision as best you can. That's all anyone can do at this point. When it comes to heavy hitters like cancer, everyone second-guesses decisions they've made that could have prevented it, but please know you would not be at fault.


Thanks for the words of encouragement. Of course, you are right.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerOften a stud dog owner will let you breed your bitch to their dog for a puppy or for the pick of the litter. I do not know what they would charge you for whelping and raising a litter. I would not do it for one puppy. It is a ton of work if you do it right, especially if that includes selling the puppies. This is why I was guessing that they would give you a puppy and sell the rest of them, keeping the proceeds.


And, this is exactly why I would want everything nailed down in a contract before breeding. 



> Quote:You have had a bitch before, and you are worried about dealing with heat cycles?


Like I said earlier, my previous bitch kept herself clean and I never had to do anything during her cycles. If only they were ALL like that, huh?



> Quote:When I buy a dog, I buy the teeth, the tail, and the testicles.
> When I buy a bitch, I buy the teeth, the tail, and the uterine horns. My point is that spaying a bitch or neutering a dog because it is convenient is kind of irritating. If you do not want to deal with heat cycles, you should have bought a dog. But millions of people do it (speuter) all the time. I always figured that these people were pretty much brainwashed into believing that their life will be turned upside down by having an intact animal. So I am really shocked that there are people out there that have had intact bitches and are afraid of owning another.


I bought a female this time, because in my experience, females stay closer to home, so to speak, and typically don't get as large as males/ What with this being a family dog, first and foremost this time around, I felt a female would be more managable for the rest of the family; more forgiving of mistakes. For example, if one of my kids was walking a the dog at the park and it got loose. Believe it or not, I've found females to be more sensitive to their handler/family - like when responding to a recall, they tend to naturally have the ability to simulataneously focus on the handler and whatever they're keying in on better than males do. Kind of like how women's brains are true multi-tasking, while men's are single-foucsed. I presume this difference has to do with the natural female traits because females are generally the protector and raiser of their young.



> Quote:Owning an intact animal does not mean that you need to let them breed, ever.


True, which is why I posted the questions on spaying in the first place. Although I appreciate all the comments on whether or not I should breed her, how, and why, the original post is more spay-centered. 



> Quote:The only bitch I have ever spayed was Arwen and that was last Summer when she was seven. I spayed her while she was under sedation already for a C-Section. It was a mistake. The womb was large and had a lot of bleeders so she was out for a long time. I ended up losing the puppy the next day.
> 
> What your study that you showed did not mention was the very real risks to your dogs immediate health/life if the spay surgery has complications. For instance, too much anesthetic can cause your bitch to have siezure episodes for the remainder of their life, or it may kill her.


 For that matter, she could die under the knife, just from any unforeseen circumstance, and that's what has me torn, should I decide NOT to breed her, you know what I mean? If I don't plant on breeding her in the end, why chance an unwanted pregnancy, or deal with the mess of cycles, especially with a family dog that lives in the house? So, if that's the direction I take, I want to know when the optimal time in her life it would be to spay and reduce the side effects, if any. 



> Quote:In my opinion, the hormones have more influence than just reproduction and speutering prior to reaching their full potential is inadviseable.


I agree wholeheartedly, but so many people say otherwise. I know women who've had hysterectomies and they seem perfectly fine, but I know no woman who had a hysterectomy before puberty, does that make sense?


> Quote:After the animal is full grown, spaying out of convenience is unnecessary.


I would think that would be an OK time to spay, as far as development is concerned.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

It's like Diana said, huh? Your really choose your poison if you decide to spay. But, my sister is in your camp. She says she'd rather risk the side effects in reduction of the mammary tumors and pyometra. She's seen plenty of tumors.


> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote:Take a look at this study:
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

"I bought a female this time, because in my experience, females stay closer to home," UH, MY ARWEN MADE FORTY MILES AWAY, WHEN SHE GOT LOST, BUT IT IS UP TO US TO KEEP OUR GSDS HOME AND NEVER JUST LET THEM ROAM. 

"What with this being a family dog, first and foremost this time around, I felt a female would be more managable for the rest of the family; more forgiving of mistakes." I FIND THE OPPOSITE TO BE TRUE, MALES ARE LESS TROUBLE, BITCHES CAN BE MORE PROTECTIVE OF THE DEN, PUPS, PACK. THAT IS JUST ME.

"For example, if one of my kids was walking a the dog at the park and it got loose." CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE WALKING DOGS BY THEMSELVES UNTIL THEY CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY CAN CONTROL THE DOG ON LEAD OR OFF.

"Believe it or not, I've found females to be more sensitive to their handler/family - like when responding to a recall, they tend to naturally have the ability to simulataneously focus on the handler and whatever they're keying in on better than males do." TRUE IN MY OPINION, BUT I FIND THEM TO BE KEYED IN ON ONE FAMILY MEMBER A LITTLE MORESO THAN THE BOYS. AND MINE OR MORE SENSITIVE THAN THE BOYS, THIS MEANS THEY ARE LESS LIKELY TO FORGIVE BAD HANDLING AND REBOUND. CHILDREN ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL THEMSELVES AND MAKE MORE MISTAKES IN HANDLING. 

"Kind of like how women's brains are true multi-tasking, while men's are single-foucsed. I presume this difference has to do with the natural female traits because females are generally the protector and raiser of their young." THAT THE FEMALE IS THE NATURAL PROTECTOR OF THE YOUNG IS A DISADVANTAGE, AS THEY CAN EASILY PERCEIVE A PROBLEM THAT IS NOT ONE AND CAUSE YOU SERIOUS DIFFICULTIES. SO THEY NEED TO BE SOCIALIZED WITH TONS OF CARE. 

THERE ARE PROS AND CONS TO GETTING A BITCH FOR A FAMILY. I LOVE BITCHES, BUT I FIND YOUR REASONS ALMOST OPPOSITE. 

LASTLY, IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS OWNING AN INTACT ANIMAL. SPAY HER.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

not only do women not have a hysterectomy before reaching puberty, many doctors are against it altogether. 

If they do have one, they leave an ovary. 

If they cannot leave an ovary, the women have to take estrogen, and often have to stay out of the sun, and there are other things that happen as well. 

The big thing is, if you are even worried a little bit about an unwanted pregnancy, than you are not set up to own an intact animal. You should have your animal spayed. I am really, really bothered about your comment about bitches staying closer to home. No intact animal should be given a choice. No fixed animal either for that matter. It makes me wonder if you are being a troll. 

Not trying to chase people away here. We care about our dogs and the breed. We need new people that want to do things right to enter the sport, competition, working, and breeding. There is just no room for people who will be adding to the problems with the breed, whether allowing their animals to breed indiscriminately and without respect to health and temperament, or by letting their animals run amok, getting hit by cars and biting passers-by. And letting dogs get in trouble with children is a huge downer for all of us. 

Good luck with your bitch. Millions of bitches are spayed early, with no serious side effects.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I don't know if it matters, but I am seeing a lot more dogs on this board with liver tumors, hemangiosarcoma, and other nasty cancers, but I've thought about it and I can't remember a dog on here that's had mammary cancer. We've had pyometria cases but I think that can be solved by a spay if caught early. And we have a LOT of health problems on this board!

Can anyone out there remember anyone on here who is dealing with canine mammary cancer or has dealt with it?











> Quote:I agree wholeheartedly, but so many people say otherwise.


You're never going to please everyone. Keep your dog intact, and you'll have a lot of people give you poo for it. Spay her, and same thing, but I suspect you'll catch a lot more heat for leaving her intact. Know what I say? OH WELL. "My dog, my problems." I'm not going to tell you to spay her or not spay her or when to spay her, but I am going to say forget what other people think ultimately and make an informed decision based on what medical research is available. As for breeding, I don't know how you test your dogs and health-clear your dogs, I just encourage you to remember what this breed is at heart, know that we're dealing with a lot of health and behavior problems, and strive to contribute to a population of sound, healthy GSDs, GSDs that are the truest representatives of the breed.

Let us know what you decide! And keep in mind that you can always take away but you cannot put back.







Yes, I'm sure that little gem doesn't help, does it?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Wow, take it easy!









I wasn't saying I let my animals roam, the "closer to home" statement was a figure of speech.

I also wouldn't knowingly let my children walk the dog knowing the dog would get loose. Mistakes happen...to everybody, period. A leash slips, breaks, or whatever have you. Same could happen to me. You forget that I have experience handling very aggressive dogs, so I am not as irresponsible as you seem to think I am.

And, for the record, I take great offense with you calling me a "troll". Where did that even come from?









I think that the very fact that I posted this thread shows that I am a thinking sort of person.

Now, back to our regular programming:



> Quote:not only do women not have a hysterectomy before reaching puberty, many doctors are against it altogether.


This is exactly WHY I have concerns with spaying early. I believe the ONLY reason the pet environment spays early is because of the unwanted pregnancies, and I suspect that early spays do indeed negatively affect dogs, just like they do humans, which is presumably why human doctors are against such practices.

FWIW, incontinence is a serious side effect, in my book.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMI don't know if it matters, but I am seeing a lot more dogs on this board with liver tumors, hemangiosarcoma, and other nasty cancers, but I've thought about it and I can't remember a dog on here that's had mammary cancer. We've had pyometria cases but I think that can be solved by a spay if caught early. And we have a LOT of health problems on this board!
> 
> Can anyone out there remember anyone on here who is dealing with canine mammary cancer or has dealt with it?
> 
> ...


All very good points, Diana, and I thank you for your support. This is exactly what I would expect from a forum such as this. For the most part, the responses I've received thus far are quite helpful, and yes, of course it will be my decision in the end as to whether or not I spay, breed, or just keep her intact without breeding.

I guess in a way the pet community did me a favor, because of all the dogs I've encountered in my neighborhood and at outings to the nearby lake and parks ALL have been altered, except for my next door neighbor, who has a Visla male that is NOT neutered. Too bad he's my immediate next door neighbor with whom I sharea fence (yikes!), but we've discussed our situations, and he has decided he will not be breeding and plans to neuter soon, so the chances of an unwanted pregnancy are in reality quite slim unless my bitch gets loose and really takes off.

And, like I said in a previous post, the only way I would breed her, is with a breed-back with the original breeder, as I trust what she's been doing for the past 27 years. I am NOT interested in taking up a breeding career, or hobby, for that matter, nor am I looking to raise several pups. If anything, I would do it to help contribute good lines to the breed, and not let my bitch have a litter for the experience of life, or whatever people of that mindset do.

At this point, I am still welcoming comments of spay or no-spay in regards to pros and cons healthwise, both early and after maturity spays, and although I am not specifically looking for breeding advice, it's been nice to hear people chime in with things to consider if I do decide to breed her.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote: unless my bitch gets loose and really takes off.


When she's in heat, it's your responsibility to ensure that when she is outside, she is on a leash attached to you at all times, and when you cannot be with her, she is inside in a safe room. You wouldn't believe what dogs (and bitches) have gone through to breed- mating through fences, digging out, busting through windows, etc. NEVER trust someone else to be more responsible in containment of their dog than yourself with your dog!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:Can anyone out there remember anyone on here who is dealing with canine mammary cancer or has dealt with it?


A very good friend of mine lost her HeartHound (an Irish Wolfhound) to mammary cancer that metastasized to the bones. She had a mastectomy (& hysterectomy) when it was 1st diagnosed but was (ill)advised to have the mastectomy on the affected side only!!! 

To this day I do not get that & do NOT agree. It was the vet college at Ames Iowa, too. It recurred & she had a mastectomy on the other side, which metastasized to the bones. She had chemo for some months, although I think that was to extend & improve, rather than save her life.

She was (previously) intact & had 2 litters. She wasn't yet 8 when my friend felt she needed to let her go. Of 8 deceased bitches, that was the only one she lost to breast cancer. Of the 8, none were spayed before a year & I think only 2 were spayed prior to 5yrs. Of the 8, only 2 had litters.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Oh, I get the fact that I might have to keep a stick handy to ward off any Casanovas, but did you mean to say that even a female would try to break out of the HOUSE to breed, thus your comment about a "safe room"?

What is the length of time (in days) that she would want to engage in the "act"? I'm try to gauge and consider the preventative measures I'd need to take here, is why I ask. Imean, it would be pretty cruel to crate her indoors for two weeks straight, you know what I mean? FWIW, she is crate-trained and even now rarely, if ever, goes out into my wooden-fenced backyard unsupervised, and if she does, it's only for a few minutes, which I would obviously NOT allow during her heat, let alone allow her to be off lead even in the yard during her season.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootOh, I get the fact that I might have to kep a stick handy to ward off any Casanovas, but did you mean to say that even a female would try to break out of the HOUSE to breed, thus your comment about a "safe room"?
> 
> What is the length of time (in days) that she would want to engage in the "act"? I'm try to gauge and consider the preventative measures I'd need to take here, is why I ask.


yes, even a female will leave in search for a mate. the reason its more common with males is because they can actually smell the female and travel to find her. for the females its their instinct. not all do, but you never know. even as a teenager, it broke my heart to watch my 8mo gsd flip her tail to the side for any and every animal that showed her attention (another female and two neutered males). she'd even flaunt her goods around us, the sofa, anything. she was on tight lock down 24/7. thank God for summer break!

anyway, its hard to narrow it down and say that she'll only present herself in the 2nd week or the 3rd week etc since each female cycles a little differently. to play it safe, i would prepare for 5 weeks. the second you think she's going into heat, all the way thru the week after you _think_ she's done.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, there have been mammary tumors on this board. 

There are an abundance on the IMOM board, as well as pyometra cases. For whatever reasons. 

I also believe that there are ways to prevent cancer, but as a living thing ages, cancer seems to lurk more closely. 

I am going to go back to your original questions. 

1) While it may be true that spaying can reduce the instances of certain diseases such as mammary tumors, etc., I feel that completely removing sex organs will adversely affect the development of the dog. I'm talking about bone structure, physical proportions, mental development, the works. And, I think that the benefits, as far as reduction in diseases or conditions goes, I believe that it highly overrated and emphasized my the pro-spay camps. Am I wrong here?

---> Cost benefit analysis for me and my dogs-still going with the spay. My dogs alone, I don't see any issues in mental development. Other than what was already there.







My female who was spayed at 7 developed GI lymphoma. Unable to go back in time and see if she would have developed that if she'd been spayed earlier or not. Or not spayed at all. I got her at age 8. 

I agree with what pupresq said: "Some people do, some people don't. I consider myself fairly moderate on the issue and very informed on the topic. I'm in rescue but my first priority is my dog's health. I'm not going to advocate a procedure that I think would harm them. The health benefits to spaying prior to the first heat cycle or as soon after it as possible are very real. There are other reasons not to do it. You have to find the balance that you feel comfortable with, but please don't discount the weight of scientific and medical evidence that spaying really does have benefits as hype because honestly they're not." 

2) I'm concerned with incontinence, as well, as a result of spaying. Any truth to this?

---> My almost 16 year old  male has a little dribbling. So far, knock on wood, my females do not and have not. 

3) Almost every spayed female I've seen, regardless of breed appears to develop a wider "middle". I am all too-aware that most dog owners seem to live by the overfeed/under-exercise mantra, but that's not what I'mtalking about. I'm referring to the structure of the rib cage itself. It seems to me that altered dogs appear to develop more of a barrel to their rib cages. 

---> Why would this be I wonder? Just looking at my girls-the one spayed the earliest has the narrowest rib cage. 

4) My bitch has incredible prey drive, and from my experience is extremely quick in both mind and body. She would make for an excellent K-9, tracking, or other utility dog. I am concerned that spaying her will affect these qualities. Although she is currently being raised as a family dog, I have been sure to help her hone and develop many of her natural instincts, as I am also contemplating some type of utility work for her in the future. 

---> I think you've gotten good answers from people who know a lot about this. Plus, I am sure there are female athletes who are cancer survivors still competing. Maybe?

5) She comes from a long line of accomplished ancestors and the breeder I got her from is trying to encourage me to breed her, because she is the last in the line, and in addition to the performance of her line, her line was also developed for incredible colors and markings. If I was single I would probably be all for it, but since I have a family with two youngsters, 12 and 8, and have my own business, I think breeding her will stretch me quite thin. I am also concerned with running through her heat cycles. The only female I had in the past was exceptionally clean. She never let anything drip, so I really didn't have to worry about a mess in the house. She and her male companion were also protection K-9s, and housed as such, so I really had no problems with other males coming around for some "fun". Because of my fortunate circumstances when I owned my previous female, I am not sure what to expect during heat cycles with my current bitch. Things like length of cycle, how much of a mess, caring for her during those times, diapers, etc. If none of that was a concern and spaying REALLY was better for her health-wise, I'd spay her, but to me, ANY open surgery I would think would be hard on a living being's system, not to mention removing the organs that to me, make a being who he/she is, does that make sense? Or, am I over-analyzing?

---> Surgery is difficult. Read that thread about breeding-I think selzer posted about the effects of heat cycles on the uterus. I think everything is hard on the body and that over time, the body wears out. That is the hard part for us to accept. That if all goes as it should, their bodies will wear out before ours. 

As to surgery being dangerous, I am not going to say that a surgery or procedure using anesthesia is not, but you can do things to stack the deck in your favor. Checking for clotting factors, doing pre-anesthetic bloodwork, following pre-op instructions carefully, using "good" anesthesia, and if you are parcticularly concerned, finding a board certified surgeon and anesthesiologist to do the surgery helps to help your pet. I worry about people being so concerned about surgery of any kind, that an animal who could have increased quality or quantity of life doesn't get that because of fear. 

I just helped a 7 year old female dog, w/a mitral valve regurge and a grade IV heart murmur go to rescue. She was spayed, using the good anesthesia, at my vet office after having an ultrasound to determine the cause of the murmur. I saw her the next day and she looked like her usual puppy self. This dog is going to live a great life, and will never have limitations because she is in heat. Maybe because of her borkiness...but she will not have a couple of months out of the year (or so-not stating exacts here) where she has to go stay at a convent.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Camerafodder and JeanKBBMMMAAN:

Thank you for your posts! Very enlightening indeed. I have been concerned with dealing with the cycles in themselves. It would be a drag to go through them for nothing, so to speak.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:She comes from a long line of accomplished ancestors and the breeder I got her from is trying to encourage me to breed her, because she is the last in the line, and in addition to the performance of her line, her line was also developed for incredible colors and markings.


In another thread you've indicated she might have some digestive issues/food sensitivities. IF it turns out that she does, I don't think you should breed her regardless of whatever else she brings to the breed. GSDs are plagued with gut issues & enough is enough is too much already. It's ridiculous the sheer # of GSDs that can't eat beef, chicken, turkey etc, never mind corn, wheat, yeast etc. It's sad to see frightened, deparate owners struggling to find a diet that works b/c their poor dog is reactive/intolerant to just about everything.

IF you do consider breeding her, please make this an important part of assessing breed worthiness. (She'll be every bit as lovable regardless)


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayIn another thread you've indicated she might have some digestive issues/food sensitivities. IF it turns out that she does, I don't think you should breed her regardless of whatever else she brings to the breed. GSDs are plagued with gut issues & enough is enough is too much already. It's ridiculous the sheer # of GSDs that can't eat beef, chicken, turkey etc, never mind corn, wheat, yeast etc. It's sad to see frightened, deparate owners struggling to find a diet that works b/c their poor dog is reactive/intolerant to just about everything.
> 
> IF you do consider breeding her, please make this an important part of assessing breed worthiness. (She'll be every bit as lovable regardless)


Thank you, and don't worry, everything will be considered before breeding, IF I decide to go that route. I've actually heard that some of the allergy-free foods such as the Blue Buffalo, Avoderm, Canidae, etc. can be hard on alot of dogs' digestive tracts because they may be too "nutritional", sort of like concentrated nutrients. We'll see once I've done more diet rotations. Thanks for the word of advice, though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A child should not walk ANY dog alone that the child CANNOT handle on lead OR off lead. 

If your child does not have a solid recall with the dog, then the child should not be walking the dog without supervision. 

The problem with too many dog owners today is the attitude that accidents happen. Accidents happen, people sue, dogs get euthanized, oh well. 

It IS a big deal. Someone who has trained K9s ought to be anal about keeping these dogs contained. But you say she DOES get out of your back yard, only you wouldn't let her when she is in heat. This pup was born July of 08 and you cannot keep her in your yard???? The pup is one month older than my two remaining puppies! I cannot imagine these babies getting the better of me. 

People who care about the breed or care about their dogs, do not allow their dogs to get loose in heat or out of heat. If it happens one time it is too many times. And they fix it so it NEVER happens again. 

The beauty of the internet is that we are anonymous. You do not know me. I do not know you. You can tell me that you trained tigers in the past and I could believe you or not. Unfortunately, I do not disbelieve that you have trained K9s. But do I know if you are a good K9 trainer? See, I have been charged by a K9 for no more reason than walking my dog. So, just maybe I do not give K9s, their handlers, and their trainers a Get Out of Jail Free card, as unpopular as that may be on this site. 

I only train German Shepherd Dogs in obedience, rally, and agility, so no protection work going on in my training. I do NOT work with aggressive dogs. But I have respect for the breed and keep my dogs contained. People who work with dogs that are trained in bite work or work with aggressive dogs should definitely be able to contain a baby dog.

So you come on the site, and ask the question stating that you've had a litter, you train k9s, you are not sure you want to deal with heat cycles, you are not sure that you can prevent an accidental breeding, and you are not sure you want to spay your bitch. 

So I wonder whether you are a troll. I think that is fair. 

Just because you are asking questions does not mean you are not trying to get us PO'd.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerA child should not walk ANY dog alone that the child CANNOT handle on lead OR off lead.
> 
> If your child does not have a solid recall with the dog, then the child should not be walking the dog without supervision.


Who said anything about letting a child walk a dog when they don't have a solid recall, let alone unsupervised? I surely didn't.



> Quote:The problem with too many dog owners today is the attitude that accidents happen. Accidents happen, people sue, dogs get euthanized, oh well.
> 
> Someone who has trained K9s ought to be anal about keeping these dogs contained.


 Since you're being so blunt, I might as well throw it right back at you. Accidents are a fact of life, and if you think you're perfect, I feel sorry for you. Unforseen things happen all the time. It's like saying a professional race car driver doesn't have accidents. 



> Quote:But you say she DOES get out of your back yard, only you wouldn't let her when she is in heat. This pup was born July of 08 and you cannot keep her in your yard???? The pup is one month older than my two remaining puppies! I cannot imagine these babies getting the better of me.


Who said she gets out of the yard? I surely didn't. I think you need to start reading better, or something, or is it something I'm wearing that's got you so bent on flaming the crap out of me? 



> Quoteeople who care about the breed or care about their dogs, do not allow their dogs to get loose in heat or out of heat. If it happens one time it is too many times. And they fix it so it NEVER happens again.
> 
> The beauty of the internet is that we are anonymous. You do not know me. I do not know you. You can tell me that you trained tigers in the past and I could believe you or not. Unfortunately, I do not disbelieve that you have trained K9s. But do I know if you are a good K9 trainer? See, I have been charged by a K9 for no more reason than walking my dog. So, just maybe I do not give K9s, their handlers, and their trainers a Get Out of Jail Free card, as unpopular as that may be on this site.
> 
> ...


I give up with you already. To think that I welcomed and thanked you for taking the time to post comments, then suddenly I look like the guy that got your daughter pregnant or something! What the he|| got into your soup? You've made a lot of assumptions, incorrectly at that. You might try reading a little better, because I never said anything about not being able to contain a dog, etc. You need to take some meds. I'm done with you here, thank you very much. Sheesh.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I haven't read all of the posts, and ignoring all the breeding stuff, here is my 2 cents.

Max was neutered at nearly 2 years old when we got him, didn't change his behavior a bit that I could tell. Observations on a few other dogs that I knew from training is that it actually allowed them to focus better, if it had any effect at all. I don't have experience with early neuter.

Indy was spayed at 8 weeks because she is an SPCA dog. I thought that was a good thing at the time, but I wouldn't do it given a choice now.

She has had a myriad of health problems, and I have no idea how much hormonal imbalance has played into that. Maybe nothing, maybe something.

She has never had incontinence issues, she would have been a great working dog in an appropriate terrier job, so those negatives don't apply.

All her life she has required ground flaxseed in her diet. Even if she goes without it for several days, her coat will start getting flakey. I suspect that the flaxseed operates as an estrogen replacement. If I'm seeing that so quickly on the outside, it makes me wonder what happens on the inside.

I believe that those hormones in the body do more than allow the dog to reproduce, and I do think that you compromise the health when you remove them. Just think of all the women that have hit menopause and how different they feel when they are on hormone replacement, and also the health risks that occur to women after menopause because they no longer have those hormones.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Posted by MrLeadFoot:

"I bought a female this time, because in my experience, females stay closer to home, so to speak, and typically don't get as large as males/ What with this being a family dog, first and foremost this time around, <u>I felt a female would be more managable for the rest of the family; more forgiving of mistakes. For example, if one of my kids was walking a the dog at the park and it got loose.</u> Believe it or not, I've found females to be more sensitive to their handler/family - like when responding to a recall, they tend to naturally have the ability to simulataneously focus on the handler and whatever they're keying in on better than males do. Kind of like how women's brains are true multi-tasking, while men's are single-foucsed. I presume this difference has to do with the natural female traits because females are generally the protector and raiser of their young.

For that matter, she could die under the knife, just from any unforeseen circumstance, and that's what has me torn, should I decide NOT to breed her, you know what I mean? If I don't plant on breeding her in the end, <u>why chance an unwanted pregnancy,</u> or deal with the mess of cycles, especially with a family dog that lives in the house? So, if that's the direction I take, I want to know when the optimal time in her life it would be to spay and reduce the side effects, if any. 

<u>I also wouldn't knowingly let my children walk the dog knowing the dog would get loose. Mistakes happen...to everybody, period.</u> <u>A leash slips, breaks, or whatever have you. Same could happen to me.</u> You forget that I have experience handling very aggressive dogs, so I am not as irresponsible as you seem to think I am.

Each of these are quoted out of your posts on this thread. 

From your posts, I got the idea that your puppy does go out of your wooden fence unsupervised. Sorry, I re-read and it says you only rarely if ever let her loose in the fenced in yard unsupervised -- my wording, but I was mistaken at your meaning there. I thought you said she rarely if ever gets out of your wooden fence. My bad. 

From your posts, I get the idea that you might be "risking" and unwanted pregnancy. 

From your posts, I get the idea that you might let a child walk a dog that he cannot manage if the leash drops. 

None of us plan for the leash to drop but we must not allow a child to be in charge of a dog they cannot manage with or without a lead for just that reason. 








I went off thinking that you let your dog loose unsupervised which is a huge pet peeve of mine. That was one of my biggest beefs with your posts. Sorry.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to get that all cleared up. I hated the fact that I appeared to have somehow made enemies on here, because this forum seems to provide a wealth of information for GSD lovers. Yay! Now we can get on with the show!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I love it when arguments get cleared up on this board and the thread turns back onto a good path.











> Quote:I hated the fact that I appeared to have somehow made enemies on here, because this forum seems to provide a wealth of information for GSD lovers.


Do remember that if the world agreed on everything, this would be an extremely boring place to live! Also remember that this breed is one of the most popular breeds in the world with VERY passionate people behind it; the passion comes out in tidal waves and we do get caught up in our passions. We just love our breed that much and sometimes it shows TOO much. Most of us here do have the greatest intentions, to preserve the breed as it was always intended to be, though, so in the midst of arguments we should always remember that we're all here for a common reason and a common purpose.









And that purpose is....... posting endlessly on the internet about Fido's latest poops and photos of Sasha flopped over on the sofa just so we can forego the housework a little bit longer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Quote: "And that purpose is....... posting endlessly on the internet about Fido's latest poops and photos of Sasha flopped over on the sofa just so we can forego the housework a little bit longer." 

I am not the only one????


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