# Hear we go again - Grim



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I would appreciate any experiences on this one. Up until last week everything was just going GREAT

Past week he has been a little stiff in the shoulders but he has some spondylosis and cold/wet seems to make things a little stiff - heck I have that problem where I have the plate in my ankle, and Grim is 9,5 and been "run hard put up wet"

But this am I felt a lump over his shoulder (right over the blade) and another on his neck. Ran him to the vet. She aspirated - pulled out a bunch of blood like a hematoma but no signs of trauma - certainly no known trauma .......Did x-rays and nothing there though and his color is good, appetite good, no signs of abdominal swelling issues, etc.

His CBC and Chem were perfect in Dec but
She drew CBC with morphology, Chem panel, Tick panel and is sending the x-rays to radiologist to see if she missed anything. The apirate from both locations will also be tested and she gave him some tramadol for pain. 

She really gave no insight other than "lets get the test results back" - so of course I am thinking the worst and have come up with subcutaneious hemangiosarcoma....but then having lost my last two to hemangio, it is kind of like old episodes of Ben Casey where everyone had a subdural hematoma (IOW, my experience colors my perception but she is running through the diagnostics) what was odd was the amount of blood she aspriated but also commented "no other signs of trauma" and we have no reason to suspect any.

Oy. Toby in 2007, Cyra 2012, I am sure worried about Grimmy bear.


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

I hope it's nothing serious - crossing paws!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

All our fingers and paws are crossed and sending all the positive energy we can.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope he's ok, Nancy! I understand your worry. 

He hasn't had any vaccines lately, has he?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am hoping he's okay... sending super positive thoughts your way, Nancy. Think positive, positive energy...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

BowWowMeow said:


> I hope he's ok, Nancy! I understand your worry.
> 
> He hasn't had any vaccines lately, has he?


Not since 2011 last rabies.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

We hope he is OK too. Yes, it is hard not to let the past color our perspective.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wish you luck -- hoping it is just a blood blister which the vet can drain and then put a pressure band on it to prevent it from refilling . could have happened by being whacked by a low sharp branch , running into something - fence board , or a bump in rough play from 'bro' Beau.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm sorry--hope it's nothing major and just something like Carmen suggested!


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm sorry, I hope everything comes back ok with your Grimmy bear!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Praying for Grim!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> wish you luck -- hoping it is just a blood blister which the vet can drain and then put a pressure band on it to prevent it from refilling . could have happened by being whacked by a low sharp branch , running into something - fence board , or a bump in rough play from 'bro' Beau.


Poor ole Grim doesn't get to play with Bro'BoNo'mo' because of the disk issue this time last year (probably disk extrusion injury) .... Fortunately Beau had enough rational adult dogs exposure (with Grim and Cyra as a puppy) that he has the requisite social skillset. Plus a lot of non-play training exposure near other dogs. And I know he is cool with puppies too. {actually kind of ignores the little lab on our team but I had a ball in my hand, need I say more?}

He is learning, though, that females will tell him off if he gets too inquisitive as he is a bit forward-not humping but wanting to play. {takes a snark attack with a backwards leap in the air with all 4 feet then falls into a play bow}

We think maybe Grim tried to go up the steps and fell but The stiffness up front has been for several days. He does not run fast these days anymore...as I hide his toy instead of throw it since he is kamikaze. Old boy is definitely hurting. Even after the tramadol.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Sending good thoughts your way, Nancy.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Hoping it is a benign issue...

When do you expect results and was a tissue sample taken as well along with the aspirate?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Hopefully all is well! I too will be awaiting the results, as I personally have never seen something like this outside of the obvious aural hematomas.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is killing me seeing him just hurting. He seems resigned. Depressed. When he hurt his back and was all wobbly he was all happy even though he could not walk a straight line.

We expect blood results tomorrow. She did not do a biopsy - just a needle aspriate (and the complete bloodwork)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

prayers coming his way that he will feel better today


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

My prayers are w/ you and Grim. Hoping he starts to feel better real quick.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Hoping for good news and an easy fix.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Fingers, toes and paws crossed it's nothing serious..

Chaos was very stiff and sore in her front too.. We think it was more from her back issue then her neck.. Of course she doesn't have any lumps though..


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Any news? Is today the day?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

heres hoping you receive good news today.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thinking of you and Grim today.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Waiting for a call. Dr. has and is looking at test results.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Hoping for nothing serious! We are sending positive thoughts your way!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

He has always been hard to keep down. I don't know if it is the tramadol or the pain or whatever he has. He has spent all day in his crate except for eating, drinking, and going to the bathroom. He just carried a ball in their and laid down. Normally he is my shadow. Can't focus on anything but waiting for the vet to call back. I just go in, sit on the floor, give him a cookie....I think tonight I am going to put an air mattress in front of the crates since that is where he wants to be. His color and hydration are still good. He is not panting.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interim report: Nothing showing up in bloodwork and aspirations to indicate anything specific so she is consulting with some other vets. It is puzzling. ........


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

She called back. The specialist thinks a metasticized hemangiosarcoma (which is actually what I was concerned about - enlarged spleen a year ago - no issues on ultrasound - negative on VDI test then as well - Trying to get worked into Upsate Veterinary tomorrow. Unless it is localized and they think it is removable ....... but the fact there were two lumps.........What CAUSES this nonsense? It would be the third GSD in a row who has had hemangio if that is the diagnosis.. 

Having hemangio present this way is a lot less common.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Oh, no! I hope they are wrong.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I hope they are wrong to and it's something that can just be removed, and GONE..


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Maybe it's this

Benign Skin Tumors in Dogs

Cutaneous hemangiomas are benign growths that originate from endothelial cells (cells found in blood vessels) located in the skin and/or subcutaneous tissues. Subcutaneous hemangiomas are generally larger than skin hemangiomas. In addition, subcutaneous hemangiomas are typically elevated, partially hairless and blue in color. Skin hemangiomas appear as a small dome with a reddish-black tint. These tumors may be caused by certain chemicals, the sun or be idiopathic (cause unknown) in origin. They affect mainly middle-aged to older dogs with no preference to males or females. Many different breeds are affected. Diagnosis of the cutaneous hemangioma involves skin biopsy, electromicroscopy and immunohistochemistry (a process used to detect certain antigens within a sample of tissue). Treatments include surgical removal, cryosurgery (freezing) and electrosurgery.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh Nancy, I'm so sorry. I hope that they are wrong... :hugs:


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

here is hoping they are wrong.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Best wishes for a good outcome, Nancy. Waiting for answers must be very difficult. :hugs:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Driving me crazy. I know how Cyra went quickly, so tonight I am sleeping on an air mattress next to his crate since that is where HE wants to be. I hope they can get me in tomorrow.........They have ultrasound there so I assume that is what they will do.

We will play it by ear. The hemangioma sort of looks possible but their is no hairless about it ..... it is well in the muscle of the shoulder.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Have you heard of this blood test - supposed to have 90%+ accuracy rate to malignacies - but is not specific as to type of cancer, just that it is there

ONCOPET - Links of interest

Biocurex inc.

distributor of kit
BioCurex Announces Canine Cancer Screening News


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm sorry Nancy. I hope you have answers soon and that it is not what they're thinking.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thinking of you and Grim...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I actually have one VDI test kit I am going to take with me to the clinic. I will ask them to do the draw and send it. They had sent it for a follow up for Cyra who had an elevated marker in 2011, then 2012 but she passed away suddenly before we could collect the sample.

Since Grim was enrolled in the study in 2011 they may want a follow up sample given the current cycle regardless. ..... He had an enlarged spleen at that time that was negative on ultrasound and negative by the marker so because of the spleen they did additional blood tests on him back then.

Veterinary Diagnostics Institute

I am also taking in a paper from mondio labs after I call them and see if they want anything if we get a diagnosis [they are directing blood samples to www.dogdna.org

Hemangiosarcoma | Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard


If there is any hope there are genetic markers for this terrible disease ... I want to be armed to support the research even if I have to pay to submit the samples. Way too many GSDs are being taken by this disease.

He is not doing well. I am asking my husband to wait for work because I am not sure I can get him in my truck without help. 

He ate with gusto tonight and, with some effort, I got him outside to pee, and now he has a nylabone smeared all over with peanut butter. Getting ready to play balls with Beau, shower, and set up camp next to Grim.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, darn. 

Let's hope they are wrong about this.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks for all the sentiments. I do pray. And I am praying that if it is this horrible disease that he is released in his sleep instead of having to go through veterinary examinations. He is perfect at the vet but I am sure he would just as soon not go through all that poking and prodding. 

If it is not I am praying for quick resolution, cure, and to live out the rest of his life for however long, in comfort.

Its all sincere; I feel like I am being a bit of a drama queen but Grim is and has always had a special place that is hard to describe.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Maybe his UTI is back and that is why he is under the weather...hmmm(???)(crossing fingers)...

I'll make a wish for him on my wishing jar:wub:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This growth over his shoulder is very large and came up very fast - it spans from the heel of my hand to the tips of my fingers. It is broad, diffuse, and hard (which makes me think it is between the bone and the muscle) - AND - immovable

Urine was fine (they did a urinalysis)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Nancy, when my lab died from hemiangiosarcoma (sp?) a couple years ago, it _was_ fast. He started limping on a Thursday night, I waited Friday to see how he was, called the vet Saturday am and he went in at 2pm. He had steadily been acting more fatigued all morning; when we got him to the vet and the bloodwork came back, and the vet explained the likelyhood of it being hemixxx and that most likely it was on a vascular organ like the spleen, he advised us it would probably be only a night at most. The dog wouldn't even get up anymore, suggesting an internal bleed. We made the decision to euthanize him right there, and all 5 of us were together. I took comfort in that we all stroked him and held him and that he could feel the love we had for him. 

I say this not to suggest his end is here, but that even if he doesn't go in his sleep, it can still be fast and without suffering. We were supposed to leave on vacation at 5am the next morning, and my 18 year old nephew was going to stay with him. Can you imagine how my poor nephew would've felt if he'd woken up to a deceased dog? He would've freaked out and likely been filled with guilt. I have always felt like that dog was a perfect, giving, selfless creature even until the end; that he even had the grace to pass away in a timely manner "for us". 

I hope this is not Grim's fate, that he has several happy years left with you. But in case not, I wish him a peaceful, love-filled end like our dog received. My only consolation was I truly didn't feel like he suffered. In the big picture, I knew at his age the end was coming, but just two days before he died, he was butt-tucking around and actually seemed slightly 'revived'. It was really less than 24 hours he was showing fatigue, which matches an internal bleed. For that, I am grateful, and feel it was his "reward" for being the most perfect dog I could ever have hoped for.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We made it through the night. Gums still pink but he is still very much in pain.

When we lost Cyra, it was very fast, very peaceful. I did not even take her in only because between her VDI numbers and the white gums the morning of the day she died, I just "knew" and it was fast and peaceful. I just loved on her.

I will take Grim in because I don't know. If it is hemangio with signs of metastices, I will release him on the spot. If it is localized, we will have to look at options. I am glad veterinary procedures are not "traumatic" to him.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well we are going in at 2pm
Things are getting more and more expensive - *just* the workup $550-$1100.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thoughts and prayers for you and Grim today.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I recognized the vet he is seeing because it is the same one he saw with the back issue this time last year. He is a kind and reasonable man. One to paint your options realistically and one quick to consult with his peers.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Lots of good thoughts for you and Grim.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm praying all goes well, it's not too late for a miracle


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Praying for you as well.


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## lily's master (Jul 16, 2012)

:hugs: Get well soon Grim


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I had a talk with the folks at Modiano labs and she is putting me in touch with the people at the Broad Institute doing DNA research. She says www.modiano will be updating their web page soon but still finding no correlation with finished PVC toys, plastic dog bowls, nylabones etc. 

I am doing what I can to put any samples into the hands of the right people if he is positive. Honestly it is all I can DO to prepare myself for the visit (and spend time wiht Grim; I took the entire day off of work)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I recognized the vet he is seeing because it is the same one he saw with the back issue this time last year. *He is a kind and reasonable man. One to paint your options realistically and* one quick to consult with his peers.



This is so important. I'm thinking of you today.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

More info from Morris: Morris Animal Foundation | Search Results

Golden Retrievers Key To Longest, Largest Dog Cancer Study Ever Conducted 

Cancer Information for Golden Retrievers - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

The Cancer Risk for Purebred Dogs - WSJ.com

Sending all good thoughts and prayers.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Boy that Morris page has a LOT of links. Not sure I can get into them all today. WOW. Do we HAVE a hemangiosarcoma sticky (not about individual dogs but about research, testing, etc? 

Rushing around no time to look


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

You & Grim have prayers coming from Ohio. We are rooting for your brave boy.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Nancy, I'm so very sorry :hugs:

The day we found out that Max had *extensive* metastasized hemangio, I had the VDI test taken. They reported back, from their reading, he was okay. The number they report back to the owner was a bit elevated, but their second marker that they test but do not report, a measure of inflammation perhaps (I want to say it's the c-reactive protein, but am not sure), well, that was normal, so he went into the non-cancer category. I know you went through this with Cyra  

Have no idea about the oncopet linked above: ONCOPET - Dogs

I firmly believe that Max's hemangio was held partially at bay by the doxy, which inhibits blood vessel growth that feeds tumors. 

I will be thinking of you guys in this very difficult time.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There's this:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/85938-health-topics-collective-wisdom.html

The Morris stuff is good/too much. 

Are you saying you need information on making an accurate diagnosis?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Those links in the sticky no longer work, you have to scroll down to the right section...

I am betting that the u/s will give you information. I am hoping it is good news, I am the eternal optimist...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thank you - yes - but Cyra was elevated for the marker but not off the charts and it was up first then went down as I recall and we were getting ready to do a third test but she passed away - never any warning signs; I would have to look.

I am lined up already with VDI and with Broad Institute with shipping directions. 

The onco pet looks like they are using a non specific fetal protein cancer test - I think only relative values would be of use (before/after/during) because of the spread of numbers on research.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Are you saying you need information on making an accurate diagnosis?


No, I am not worried about that. This is a very respected specialist veterinary clinic and they have an oncology department and hemangiosarcoma is certainly not uncommon. I am just trying to stuff out there for any studies.

I have no inclindation to put Grim through ANYTHING involving prolonged pain or discomfort.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Cyra, I think you are right, it went down after some lumpy thing was removed? 

I am glad that you are doing the tests, with the hope they will make some ort of progress. 

This sucks.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, she had a tumor removed from her leg that was diagnosed as benign. It was an external tumor. When I called Modiano they said "oh yes, you sent us a tissue sample from Toby in 2008. Wow. So I guess they looked me up before the called back. They only want splenic tissue samples hence the DNA request for Broad Institute.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Not sure if these links will give you what you need. 

Compound Derived From a Mushroom Lengthens Survival Time in Dogs With Cancer, Penn Vet Study Finds | Penn News

A Retrospective Study of Visceral and Nonvisceral Hemangiosarcoma and Hemangiomas in Domestic Animals

Cutaneous Hemangiosarcoma in 25 Dogs: A Retrospective Study - Ward - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library

Surgery and Doxorubicin in Dogs With Hemangiosarcoma - Ogilvie - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library

The National Canine Cancer Foundation dedicated to eliminating cancer in dogs



01911-A: Improving response of mitogen activated protein kinase kinase 1/2-dependent Hemangiosarcoma using RTK combination drug therapy.
01759: Targeting Multipotency to Arrest Hemangiosarcoma Progression and Improve Outcomes
01484: Identification and Characterization of a Canine Derived Single Chain Antibody that Binds and Neutralizes Canine VEGF
http://www.petcancerawareness.org/research.html


??? http://elimay.wearethecure.org/about-study


http://chaseawayk9cancer.org/

Just saw this and thought interesting: Fight Dog Cancer - Your online weapon for fighting dog cancer

http://www.dogcancerblog.com/meet-dr-ettinger/ & http://www.dogcancerblog.com/book/ 

Fight Canine Cancer


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I haven't seen some of those links before jean, good finds! I will have to add them to the sticky over there. 

Nancy, sounds like these places really are keeping track.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Good. I got that Dr. Ettinger one from Twitter. No idea how good...but always something to check into.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A HUGE issue with the VDI test is sample preparation. If they do not follow the directions properly there can be big swings. They need a more forgiving assay.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Great finds indeed


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hoping the best for Grim.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

My prayers and healing thoughts for you and Grim. Take care of yourself.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Prayers for Grim. I hope it all works out.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Aww no... I hope the findings are wrong and Grim has even more years of happiness without any pain. Sending lots of thoughts and prayers your way.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

I am so sorry you and Grim are going through this. You're likely at the appt now, I hope it is going well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

They did x-rays and ultrasounds and, apparently, his chest and lungs are clear and the spleen is granular showling signs of some kind of infiltration but no identifiable growths that would be typical of hemangiosarcoma...it could be that or it could be another cancer...there is a nodule in the liver but it was indeterminate.

The next option was a biopsy but the biggest tumor is situated in such a way that the only way to remove it is to remove the leg, and for a 9.5 year old dog, with a disc injury (so his back is wobbly anyway) that is not going to work and I won't put him through that. Since we cannot remove the tumor(s) and don't plant to put him through chemo and radiation we agreed that palliative care to keep him comfortable is really the best course for now.

So he is getting prednisone, tramadol, and gabapentin as well as any thing he wants to eat or chew and as long as we can keep him happy and comfortable, we will do so and release him if we feel he is suffering.

I think the most important thing is to make whatever time he has left good. Sigh. I believe HALF of all dogs die from cancer these days. Serious warning signs for us.

Still trying to wrap my hands around this. I am not desparate to prolong his life; I just want what is left to be good.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so very very sorry Nancy I can't believe how fast things can happen.

I will pray for you and Grim that he has good days left . hugs to you all


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how odd that this , between the shoulder blades , happens to be an injection site . 
day by day -- wish you well


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> how odd that this , between the shoulder blades , happens to be an injection site .
> day by day -- wish you well


Actually it is not between the blades. It covers the entire shoulder blade from elbow to front of his chest and appears to be intermingled with muscle and nerve. He did not think it could be a clean removal. The swelling is also compressing some veins (we think) and causing some mild edema in the arm itself. It is the size of my entire hand and visibly enalarged -- no apparent bone involment. 

I run my hands over my dogs every day and it really apparently came up overnight and has grown since Monday morning.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm so sorry it wasn't better news


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My first shepherd with HSA started out with swelling of the legs and limping. I had no idea at that time, I just assumed she injured herself running up and down the stairs when the mailman came. She seemed to recover and was ok for a few months, just slept more, I thought she was getting older. Then one day she could barely walk and refused her breakfast. Took her to the vet immediately. Her body was overnight full of lumps similar to hematomas, but filled with clear fluid. The vet kept convincing me that she got hit by a car. I knew she was not, she was never alone outside. Ultrasound showed HSA metastasized to the liver.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Nancy, my prayers are with you and Grim.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ugh, so sorry Nancy.  I was hoping for better news.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Knowing what to do with a cancer condition is very hard and I guess we all come at it from different angles based on our views of what is important.

I know some would tell me I should shoot for the moon to cure it while others may say I should just put him down now. I hope we are making the right decision re palliative care. 

About the only truth is "'Life, you don't get out alive"... It is so easy to make the right decision with something you know you can fix.

You would think after saying goodbye to 7 other dogs it would be easier to face these times....but......it never is I guess My father's response was to never again have another dog but not loving so you can't get hurt isn't the way for me. I am grateful Beau is with me and has his own personality already so we don't lay unreal expectations on him.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think under the circumstances, you've made the best decision you can. Quality of life always has to be considered. I'm not one to give up easily, but when shooting for the moon means putting him through a difficult surgery that may not have a very good outcome anyway, well.... I don't really see the point. 

Keep him as happy and comfortable as you can as long as you can, and then lovingly let him go when he shows you he's ready. What else can you really do?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

:rose: UGH. I've been stalking Grim for a long time, and wanted to continue - here is hoping for some beautiful times ahead. 

There are some good websites on palliative/pawspice (I know) care for pets. Dr. Villalobos (sp) is one of the first/most well known, I believe. More vets are starting to add that to their practices, as diseases are caught earlier/more often by people who spend so much time with their animals, and sadly there are things that cannot be fixed. 

That prednisone does some incredible things - Kramer was only supposed to have hours to a couple of days at the most and was with me for five wonderful weeks - not a fully bad day in the bunch, some adventures and even some scallops which...holy cow, were a splurge but he loved them and ate them like nothing I'd ever seen before. Fun to cook too. 

You've got good pain management on board but it can also be a little sedating and beyond - the gabapentin I've never tried yet (I try to take a little of everything they do so I get an idea of the side effects) - but for Nina it really was too much for her to handle in her weakened state. Caused stumbling, dizziness (it looked like it) and worsened some of the inappetance stuff. This vet has an interesting website: Welcome to the Animal Pain Management Center click on the Tramadol bottle too. 

Please take care and keep us posted if you can.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Aw, I'm sorry, Nancy. You might try Essiac Tea? There are several holistic treatments that have been very effective in slowing tumor growth. 

It's a day by day thing. Chama had a huge, inoperable growth on her leg that severely impaired her movement but she continued to enjoy life right up until she could barely walk at all without assistance. I made it a priority to take her on a lot of outings and let her do whatever she wanted (except I did draw the line at chasing deer!). 

Hang in there--sending all good thoughts your way.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

jocoyn, i am sorry you are going through this. imho, it gets harder each time we have to say good bye.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am definitely going to speak with the holistic veterinarian concerning the allopathic approach. Right NOW I am definitely focusing on pain management and I was surprised that prednisone (something I have always sought to avoid and only use very short term) does have use in cancer.

I also have to ask about the interaction of thyroid (now he takes armour) and prednisone. I did take the bottle of thyroid medicine to the vet and they did write it down...and the same pharmacy filling the thyroid filled the prednisone

Last night he was perky and chose to come out of his crate and slept in our doorway. He has a bed in our room but he likes to sleep at the doorway. He was not restless.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> So he is getting prednisone, tramadol, and gabapentin as well as any thing he wants to eat or chew and as long as we can keep him happy and comfortable, we will do so and release him if we feel he is suffering.
> 
> I think the most important thing is to make whatever time he has left good. Sigh.


Exactly.. Keeping them happy and comfortable is the most important thing.. And enjoying the days you still have with him..

I don't think saying good bye to a family member will ever be easy, no matter how many times we have to go through it..

Sending positive energy your way.. And a big ol hug for Grim..


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> You would think after saying goodbye to 7 other dogs it would be easier to face these times....but......it never is I guess My father's response was to never again have another dog *but not loving so you can't get hurt isn't the way for me. I am grateful Beau is with me *and has his own personality already so we don't lay unreal expectations on him.


No it is never easy and you are right you shouldn't check out of loving to protect yourself. Losing a loved one and the hurt that comes with it, well, hurts, but all the good years enrich my life so much it makes it worth it. I too am grateful you have Beau. We lost our dog Sasha in October of unexpected illness quite quickly and having Penny through it all and afterwards made it bearable.



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think under the circumstances, you've made the best decision you can. Quality of life always has to be considered. I'm not one to give up easily, but when shooting for the moon means putting him through a difficult surgery that may not have a very good outcome anyway, well.... I don't really see the point.
> 
> Keep him as happy and comfortable as you can as long as you can, and then lovingly let him go when he shows you he's ready. What else can you really do?


Well said. Take care of Grim and yourself. I am so sorry your news wasn't positive.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I am so sorry. :hugs:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I think he is already "feeling" a bit better. He ate a good breakfast, came to me with the ball in his mouth and tail wagging and was very delighted that I hid it for him a few times. Definitely moves a bit like a train wreck but......that's ok. He is not staying "holed up" in his crate laying there with his eyes open like he was the other day. After work I will get him some good things to chew on.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm sorry Nancy. I'm glad Grim is feeling a little like his old self, I would definitely would be spoiling him rotten!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm so sorry. I do think you're making the right decision for you and your dog.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Prednisone can be an AMAZING medication. Just another medication that gets a bad rap.

We have a saying in the field when it comes to many cancer cases. A little morbid, but "better pred than dead".

Tramadol is also a great pain medication, so between the 3 I'm sure Grimm is feeling much better 

I am SO sorry... cancer breaks my heart, it can be so sudden. I'll be hoping that you caught it early enough that you can still get some good time with him!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Having a father who died from cancer and a mother who is living with the damage from a massive stroke, my fear of cancer has dropped as I get older. It is terrible but there are worse things. 

And, yes, comfort - holistic vet may have some detox options that will work WITH the existing meds and is talking about cytokine therapy but that would require *not* the meds and I am thinking I would rather gamble time than gamble comfort (IOW I am not going to play with his palliative care)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Prednisone at appropriate dose and if the animal (or person) is a "positive responder" can really work wonders at helping him stay comfortable until it's beyond help. When my grandfather started prednisone at 92 (lived until 97) my brother was concerned about side effects and long term effect. I said "LONG TERM? What are you talking about? He's 92-- let him be comfortable!" Glad to hear he's feeling better. 

I can't see why it would ever get easier to let something we love so deeply go. Love isn't a learned behavior. it's a "feeling" that is deeper than anything else. Some day I firmly believe we will be reunited with those we have loved and let go. I don't know how or where, but I do feel it. Until then, I hope you and Grim have many many days of comfortable and peaceful togetherness.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I am so sorry. I m glad Grim is feeling better. No mater how many you have or how long you have them it is never enough.Your in thoughts and prayers.
Maggi


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I wish I had something profound to say. I am just so very sorry. My heart aches for you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> And, yes, comfort - holistic vet may have some detox options that will work WITH the existing meds and is talking about cytokine therapy but that would require *not* the meds and I am thinking *I would rather gamble time than gamble comfort* (IOW I am not going to play with his palliative care)


I absolutely agree. A short but happy rest of his life is much better than a longer but miserable rest of his life. 

When we were fighting discospondylitis with Cassidy she'd have periods of ups and down lasting several months. When she was doing somewhat better we'd take her to Point Isabel, her happiest place, where we used to go every single weekend. She couldn't walk very far, and we didn't want to let her try to run, so she got to carry her beloved tennis ball, and we would roll it a short distance a few times so she could retrieve it. Even though we were careful not overdo it she would be a bit stiff the next day, but I know it was worth it for her - we could tell by the joy on her face when we were there, especially after not going for months at a time. 

We found that NSAIDs were the only thing that really controlled her pain, and of course they come with potentially serious side effects. But our choices were to give her drugs that controlled her pain but may shorten her life, or shorten her life because we couldn't control her pain. And limiting her activity to the point of keeping her home doing nothing didn't seem like a good choice either - what kind of life would it have been if all the things she enjoyed were permanently taken away? So we balanced things the best we could.

Sneaker lived to 14-1/2, and she was on pred for quite awhile at the end of her life, I don't recall exactly how long. But like with Aimee's grandfather, "long term" wasn't a factor at that point. Our vet said he wouldn't recommend long term use with a young dog, but at her age, long term might only be months, and it is a very effective anti-inflammatory.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

*So a question*

I have noticed (and I am trying to be objective)

He gets 20mg of pednisone once every 24 hours and I have given at night. He does best in the morning and the swelling is down some at that point of the day.......as the day progresses it gets worse but it seems in other regards that moving around helps him.

*I am going to call the vet - see what follow up - what is the normal regime for prednisone? Is my observation on swelling reduction realistic? It does come back to larger later in the day......THIS morning he was so good that he trotted outside, brought me the ball, and I hid it for him three times in the house then ate *

For now his spirit is good. When he gets to where I have to coax him to eat and he is not interested in the ball and looses the shine in his eyes I think I will know. There is a happy look in his face he has I am going to try to get today with the camera.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I don't know - don't know if AM would help or not but hopefully the vet will. Prednisolone Tablets Facts and Comparisons at Drugs.com I don't know if you can split it 10/10. 

I am glad to hear he is spirited and eating. I really love that Pred for what it does for these cases. BDBH had a lymphoma dog that they took from a shelter, named Duke, who was supposed to be at the end, and he was with his foster/forever home happily and well for over 6 months I believe. You can see his neck nodes are big: http://www.annalisepetphotography.com/Category/DukeBDBH/22348080_xcjPVM#!i=1785761379&k=7LbwS5S So I am hoping for you and Grim happy times spent doing some of his favorite things.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I mentioned it to the specialist vet about the tumor seeming to change size during the day and I have his blessing to up the prednisone if need be but first he wanted me to try benedryl 75mg evey 8 hours based on the suspicion that it is mast cell tumor.......as it was enlarging during the day/decreasing at night. So far he had it 2 hours ago and it seems to be helping some. He said they must not have got a good aspiriate so on Monday we ARE going to try that as it is relatively non-invasive. Naming the beast would help. 

Once again I will do nothing to sacrifice his comfort but if there are treatment options to slow the growth of course I would consider as long as they did not subject him to greater discomfort.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I have no idea if it's the same for dogs, but in humans prednisone is best delivered in the morning. Of course this has to do with different systems (the endocrine system) But personally when I have taken it I do notice that the effects are best in the first 10 hours after taking. Now of course being on long-term (which is relative), not a rapid taper, which is what I usually take, is going to be different after a couple of weeks.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

He has had a good few days. I will ask about the am vs pm thing.

I think he felt PM would be best when we originally discussed it so I am giving an extra tramadol in the am. Right now we are doing very well. Grim even RAN in the yard today. Just for the heck of it. Not fast, not graceful but he has learned I will hide his ball in the house for him whenever he brings it to me and whines so I am letting him push me around.....

I hope we come back tomorrow with more info. Still doing the 75mg benedryl every 8 hours which *does* seem to make a difference.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Just started to catch up on some of the larger topics here - and just found out about Grim.....I am so sorry Nancy......

My Kelsey had a somewhat similar tumor - inoperable as it started at the side of her neck and had tendrils woven near the jugular and carotid artery....it started small and stayed small a long time....lost her at about 9 when it got larger and she started to have alot of discomfort and then congestion around the heart and lungs...

My Kougar is on pred and tramadol - he has some neurological damage that is affection bowel adn bladder control....and rear legs - not DM..the pred helps alot. Pred can really work wonders and seriously, there is no point in worrying about long term effects...so if it helps Grim feel better - it helps the quality of his life now....

Hoping that Grim has a good many more good days with you....this is the very very worst part of loving a dog....

Lee


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm sorry this is happening and my thoughts and prayers are with you.

I will say that AM Prednisone seems to work great. First dog had Lymphoma and he was on Prenisone at night. I forgot to give it to him before bed one evening and when he had it in the morning, he was a completely different dog; all the spark and energy was back. We were doing comfort care at that point, so our vet gave us the Holy Hazmaticus to do whatever we felt made him better.

Fingers crossed that your vet gives you the okay and I'm glad he has *that* spark back.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Nancy, I have been gone for awhile and have just read this whole thread..I am so sorry for the heartache you are experiencing, and, as do all others on this forum family, wish the best outcome for you and Grim...My prayers are with you for the strength to get through this, no matter the outcome...Blessings..jan


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Hoping the best for Grim and your family. I hope you have a lot of days to love on him, he knows you love him and are doing the best for him. We bought an orthopedic bed topper for Cody and Clipper, they enjoyed that. I didn't want to put Cody thru a lot of testing, etc. sunny spots, tasty chews and food and lots of loving that helps you both.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cross fingers for us tomorrow. I am a realist but maybe we move the pred to morning 

Need to see if I would then move the thyroid to night as pred can supress thyroid medicine I think. ......... The growth on the shoulder seems to not be as big a concern for me right now as the one on his neck which seems to still be growing ....... though the vet pulled a lot of blood out of it a week ago......


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Crossing fingers for you and grim. I hope all goes well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We are back -- switching prednisone to the AM, the aspirate results should be in in about 48 hours. 

He took 8 different aspirates from the one tumor though and 5 from the other hoping that will give us more info. 

Grim is still responding well though.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Good to hear!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jocoyn - forgot to mention -- had good talk with friend who is the holistic naturopathic Vet -- She said for you or your similar minded Vet to check in GUNA therapies.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks. I will mention that. I am not familiar with it.

Once we get back the results of the aspirate which was much more involved than what the original vet did We can send it to her and she is going to work up a complimentary approach (the holistic vet)

She also mentioned cytokine therapy but I know little of it. She said that would have to be done on its own.

Some more info this afternoon that supports his Mast Cell idea was that after the aspirates, the tumor area swoll up again and was uncomfortable. Fortunately he said to give the prednisone early afternoon then go to giving it in the morning so he got a "boost" in the prednisone in order to make the switch over to morning dosing. He is doing pretty well. I will have to upload a picture of him with the toys he could find and take into his crate......MY TOYS. MY TOYS!

Thawing out some marrow soup I made and am going to buy another chicken tomorrow (organic) and get the crock pot going to make some more -- I guess we will eat the white meat and give him the dark and the marrow soup part.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Nancy glad he's feeling good that's all that matters

When I was on pred, they told me to take it before 9am daily,,have no idea why, or if it matters with dogs, but that's what they told me


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

http://www.cyto-solutions.co.uk/documents/therapeuticguide.pdf


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks Carmen - Looks like I have some reading cut out for tomorrow!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Jax08 has good mast cell info, too, just in case. Hope all is going well - when are the results due back?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

He said 48 hours so I guess tomorrow and send Jax a PM if that is the case

The suggestion to move the pred to the am was right on spot. He is much more his old self! He has the ugly lumps and I know his days are numbered but right now - I am pleased with the difference and was able to cut back one of the tramadols.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yay!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Great news!! I'm glad he's feeling better and I wish him many more pain free days


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm glad Grim's feeling a little like his old self! Wishing him many, many more good days


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Awww--I just went to pee and he even did his normal running in to see if I needed any help (for some reason he thinks he must sit his head on my knee when I go to the bathroom). He has not done that for a good week!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Awww--I just went to pee and he even did his normal running in to see if I needed any help (for some reason he thinks he must sit his head on my knee when I go to the bathroom). He has not done that for a good week!


It's these things right here that we look for and want when they are not feeling good. How something so simple means the world.

Big hugs to you and Grim


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he's having a good day! I'm so glad!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

NICE! Pee buddy!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Way to 'go' Grim!!!


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Woo hoo!


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## Fade2Black (Apr 30, 2012)

Good stuff. Hope Grim keeps improving and doing well....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

it's the little things that tell us the most....

Glad he has perked up....

Lee


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Got in the VDI TK results - remember that this was a freebie - it was supposed to be Cyra's 60 day draw after her values dropped from 47 to 19 but she suddendly died of hemangio, I had the kit, and they said to go ahead and send it in for Grim because his Tk in Dec 2011 was 2.5.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-cyras-results-vdi-hemangiosarcoma-study.html

We know Grim's internal organs are clear but his Tk was 16
Not sure that tell us much other than confirms malignancy but we were already on that tract and I know the sample prep was good

Still waiting for the biopsy. Reminding myself he will not be with us for long enough but thankful for each good day.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am hoping that the biopsy comes back as something benign. 
Sounds like he is responding well to treatment, keeping fingers crossed.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The aspirate came back as a sarcoma of sorts ... to pin it down to type it would have to be a biopsy which would require a cat scan and for all the sarcoma tumors our primary option is surgery, radiation, chemo but .......... the size and depth as well as the fact it has already spread says it is "out there" any way. Plus putting him through all that with the weak back due to the back injury.

So we know a bit more. Stay the course with prednisone and pain meds and keep up his strength with good nutrition. And take this as yet another lesson in living life one day at a time.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Awww Nancy, I am sorry it is a sarcoma of some kind. You have a good plan, and a great dog. All blessings to you.


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm sorry. But I'm glad he is feeling better and enjoying life.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am also sorry, but also glad he is feeling better and enjoying every day..hugs to you


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear that. However, thankfully he at least gets to enjoy the time he has left. Glad he's at least perking up a bit with the medication regiment. 

My thoughts and prayers are with you both.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

I too am so sorry. It never gets easier.
Cherish every moment.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

So sorry to hear about the aspirate results.  Hope every day together is a good day...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One day at a time. That's how dogs live. In the moment. I think that is why they were sent here to help be our teachers on how to live life. We had a good day today. He is cheating when I hide his ball; breaking the down/stay  and he is getting away with it. He is pestering my husband right now for some strawberries.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

so sorry Nancy - they just do not stay with us long enough....it is a blessing that he is happy right now....I know he will be spoiled beyond belief while he is able to enjoy it....

:hugs:

Lee


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Is your holistic vet exp. in intravenous Vit C therapy?

The National Institute of Health studies found a reduction in tumor weight and growth by 50% in mouse models

Vitamin C Injections Slow Tumor Growth in Mice, August 4, 2008 News Release - National Institutes of Health (NIH)

and from pubmed....

Our test of the effect of IVC on pro-inflammatory cytokines demonstrated that inflammation cytokines IL-1α, IL-2, IL-8, TNF-α, chemokine eotaxin and CRP were reduced significantly after treatments.
*CONCLUSIONS: *

The high dose intravenous ascorbic acid therapy affects C-reactive protein levels and pro-inflammation cytokines in cancer patients. In our study, we found that modulation of inflammation by IVC correlated with decreases in tumor marker levels.In summary, our data support the hypothesis that high dose intravenous ascorbate treatments may reduce inflammation in cancer patients. Our results suggest that further investigations into the use of IVC to reduce inflammation in diseases where inflammation is relevant are warranted.
Effect of high-dose intravenous vitamin C on in... [J Transl Med. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

and the Vit C foundation feels...

This page is devoted to helping explain the how and why vitamin C works against cancer tumors. *We believe that vitamin C by itself is a relatively weak cancer fighter, but when augmented with vitamin K3, Alpha Lipoic Acid, and most recently, D-Fraction of the Maitake mushroom, vitamin C and these adjunts become one of the most powerful cancer killers known.*
The Vitamin C Foundation - China-free Vitamin C Source


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

To be honest I have felt rather deserted by my holistic vet (and I drive 45 minutes to get to THAT one). Very little communication or response. I think her approach is more "do this" and not to inform/educate/discuss. I even offered to pay her for phone consult time.

I gather her take is that anything that enhances immune response cannot be given at the same time as prednisone. Now prednisone is awful but he has had a wonderful quality of life since we started....realizing it supresses immune system, I have even read it can actually prolong life of a dog with cancer so I am not prepared to throw it out without some level of confidence that the pain and inflammation can be controlled without it.

My last experience with a different holistic vet was one who convinced me to keep alive a 15 year old dog for the 6 miserable months before he died instead of accepting death. That dog *SHOULD* have died in my arms, but he died all alone while I was at work, so I am torn in all directions. I would love to cure Grim or hold the cancer at bay but it is THE most important thing to me that his time with us is good times.

Thanks for the link though I will look at the studies.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> To be honest I have felt rather deserted by my holistic vet (and I drive 45 minutes to get to THAT one). Very little communication or response. *I think her approach is more "do this" and not to inform/educate/discuss.* I even offered to pay her for phone consult time.
> My last experience with a different holistic vet was one who convinced me to keep alive a 15 year old dog for the 6 miserable months before he died instead of accepting death. *That dog *SHOULD* have died in my arms, but he died all alone while I was at work, so I am torn in all directions.* I would love to cure Grim or hold the cancer at bay but it is THE most important thing to me that his time with us is good times.
> 
> Thanks for the link though I will look at the studies.


re: first bolded statement ~ I know this all too well and for that I feel I and my dog were done a diservice - this cost me large (indirectly) finacially, but mostly emotionally and cost my dog an unnecessary amount of suffering...I felt very abandoned when my concerns w/symptoms, tests I wanted went unanswered...

You want to go to the ends of the earth to help your dog and when you try, you hit a wall...the wall being the very people you _need_ to put your faith...it is disconcerting and disheartening

the second ~ that is so tragic - I feel so bad for what you have gone through, the *should* have....my heart sunk.

Big hug for you and Grim


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Another good day with Grim. He even got to chase his ball in the yard a few times. Well, I did what I have been doing the past few months which is throw the ball in the yard "somewhere" and THEN let him out to find it. A little bit easier on the joints since he is kamikaze. We also skype'd with my daughter and he got up on the sofa with my husband but did not get the idea of the voice coming out of the laptop.

Tomorrow I need to get some more "treats" for him. I think I need to buy a beef heart and cook it on the grill for him.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Oh, Nancy!  I am SO sorry!! I had missed this and had no idea... sending you all the happy and peaceful thoughts in the world. I'm convinced there's nothing harder than this in life. I know you'll spoil and love Grim til the very end. I'm so very sorry for you both. I hope that Grim has many more good days than bad.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

I am so sorry Grim has this  My prayers go out to you and Grim that he has a painfree and Peacefull rest of his life.....Sincerley Jerry and Jonas


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Checking in on Grim! I am sure he will enjoy his treats!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well the vets office got back and they will get back with me..the vet has been sick and is struggling to keep up with her cases. 

No cookout until tomorrow night. I KNOW better than to cook beef heart in the house! So today its dog treats. (and strawberries  )

But the morning is starting out well as well, even in good shape BEFORE the am prednisone.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Love means standing out in the pouring rain waiting for the morning poo so I can bring him in as soon as he is done (Plus I watch him to make sure the tramadol does not make things to hard and meter pumpkin accordingly.....The *STILL* enlarged (post neuter) calcified prostate does not help things.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Good to hear Grim is having a good morning.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

jocoyn, glad to see you are hanging in there.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I wrote a rather lengthy message only to have it "disappear" when I hit enter.

Not quite as good a day today - cold, wet, rainy - his spirit is good but he seems to hurt a little more and I can visibly see a loss of muscle even though he is eating well and not pooping tons so he must be digesting it. 

Could not find the beef heart so I got some beef liver and the chicken is in the crock pot to make marrow soup for him. 

Rough day all around. Found out the oldest child of an old friend recently passed away from a drug overdose. We had lost contact with them because the mother (our friend) got into all kinds of weird stuff and we did not want our children to be around her and the kids but it was very very sad to see a young life wasted in such a way.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I know how a lot of pet owners feel about prednisone, but honestly if my own dogs ever have cancer pred is going to be the first thing I ask for, so don't feel bad about it. It's better to have good QoL then worry about what _might _happen from pred use. I have seen a lot of dogs on pred and the vast majority do not suffer any serious side effects other then increased thirst and hunger. Hope tomorrow is better for you and Grim. :hugs:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Aww....so sorry Nancy. Prayers for your friends family in their loss. And hope the appetite continues to provide nutrition and strength to Grim. Mud go away


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yep right now it is 20mg every am but I will up it if I need to. After I typed this he came in with the ball and I had to throw it outside for him. It REALLY lifts his spirit to play with that ball which is his constant companion now. LOL He keeps getting into all the balls and taking them into his crate. [normally I control the balls, and still do for Beau but for Grim.......nah.......(they are still kept separate.....get along ok but Beau is just a bit to rambunctious for Grims frail body)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> Aww....so sorry Nancy. Prayers for your friends family in their loss. And hope the appetite continues to provide nutrition and strength to Grim. Mud go away


It is very surreal when someone you know dies before their time. He was only 29.....it has bothered me all day


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

As long as he's still interested in playing ball he's still got some fight left in him. He'll let you know when it's time, you'll see that light in his eyes start to go out, that joy in life start to fade. It's a tough call, but if you watch and listen, he'll tell you when he's ready.

We waited too long with Sneaker because we weren't ready to let her go, and always felt terrible about it. I vowed not to make that mistake with Cassidy. It was so hard because Sneaker was a senior at 14-1/2 years old, and Cassidy was only 4.  But we'd exhausted all the possibilities and she was going down fast, so I made the decision and stuck to it. Better a day too soon than a day too late.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, we let Linus go to far and I won't make that mistake again. 
His tail will tell me, too.......the video of "Grim" on the far right of this page
Dog Training with the K-9 Behavior Shaping Device

You can see that happy happy tail. It has not stopped since I got him about this time in 2006 as a 2.5 year old. 

The owner sold him to me because two intact dogs were not going to work out in his house. I verified. " ...... He had a police offer (and the police officer who evaluated him for me said he would take him if I did not) but he said he wanted a SAR person to take them because he felt our dogs live in our houses with us and are more "family" members and Grim was the kind of dog that really wanted to attach to someone..We bonded immediately..... Grim was a kennel dog until I got him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Focus and Drive*
K-9 "Grim" demonstrates how the K-9 BSD active reward generates focus & drive during training.
Play Video


Direct link - I think Grim has one of the best looks I've ever seen and seems to have the personality to go with it.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I am so sorry to read of Grim's struggles. Some of my favorite quotes are from Winnie-the-Pooh, they are so succinct... I'm posting one here for you.
..
.*Any* day spent with you is my favorite day. So, today is my new favorite day.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ksotto333 said:


> I am so sorry to read of Grim's struggles. Some of my favorite quotes are from Winnie-the-Pooh, they are so succinct... I'm posting one here for you.
> ..
> .*Any* day spent with you is my favorite day. So, today is my new favorite day.


That is so sweet.....


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

:hugs: Hugs to you and condolences to your friend.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Checking in on Grim today. It makes me smile to read he still wants to play ball.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We have had a remarkable few days - he has been demanding to play several times a day and last night he fell asleep next to my bed with the ball in his mouth. This morning, though, he was in his crate.

I think today may be his last - it is just a feeling like I had with Cyra.

I check on him frequently but he is in his crate (his choice) resting, did not really want to eat, and his paws are cool -he is cool - color not great but not as white as Cyra. We got him out to pee but he did not do that and he seems a bit disoriented and all he wants to do is lie in his crate. As long as there is no distress I am not going to do anything other than go check on him frequently and tell him I love him.

It would not be so bad.......if he just calmly falls asleep and drifts off. That is all I hope for right now. I hate the business of dying. I believe it in being as uncomplicated as possible and I know he has a terminal condition.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Oh Nancy, I'm glad that he's had a great few days, but have tears in my eyes for you. I hope it's peaceful for your sake and his. Big hugs to you


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I hope he just bounces back again. Hang in there...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Thinking of you today.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Go in peace Grim if it's your time . You earned your wings handsome. 

:hugs: to you both


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I wish I had something brilliant to say to make it easier. But I'm not good with words. So I'll just say I'm sorry you are going through this. :hugs:


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Oh Nancy I'm so sorry you guys are going thru this. As long as he is comfortable, that's all that matters.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Please give Grim an extra kiss on the nose and "good boy" from the board.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

so sorry Nancy.....I really know how hard it is.....Kougar is failing too...and I am just sitting here thinking of calling the vet.....

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Nancy, I'm so sorry I'm glad tho that Grim has had some wonderful days . Hang in there, it is so hard


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am so sorry for everyone going through this... it is not easy... it just plain sucks.. no other word to use really... 

I am thinking of you and keeping Grim in my thoughts..


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Big hugs, Nance. I hope it helps you some to know that you are not alone in your saddness. We are all sharing your pain. 

Rest peacefully, Grim. Know that you are loved.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well he has perked up a little. A bit wobbly but decided I could not go to the bathroom alone the most recent time. It kind of confirms our hemangio suspicion - maybe he is having a bleed..if he is doing ok by Friday, I will ask the holistic vet about Yunnan Baio but tongith he is getting hamburger with his dinner and I have some beef liver I intend to give him.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Finis
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/loving-memory/234514-goodbye-sweet-grim.html


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