# Did I pick the wrong trainer? Bad Session :(



## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

I have posted about Sitka's issues with leash training, and this is a bit of a continuation of that thread... http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...6-more-advice-leash-training.html#post8719706 

Sitka has completed 6 of 12 obedience classes, where each class is in a new outdoor environment. The dogs are not allowed to meet. Many of the dogs have aggression/nerve issue. Sitka does not... or at least he didn't. He has been becoming more and more frustrated on leash when not allowed to meet other dogs - He just wants to play! This is definitely my fault, in that I used to let him meet every dog we came across, and now he's getting frustrated that he doesn't get that reward.

My concern is last night's class. The session had all 5 dogs walking together along a busy street downtown, sitting and staying at crosswalks, seeing but not reacting to strange dogs and other distractions. Sitka, who does not pull when walking on the leash/harness without other dogs around, pulled like crazy the whole time he was at the back of the pack. He became more and more agitated as the walk went on, barking and jumping when we stopped. He barked aggressively towards any strange dogs, getting worse as we went.

Eventually the trainer mcguivered the leash into a halty. This stopped his pulling, but he panicked at the contraption over his nose. He's never had a halty on, and this new sensation combined with all the anxiety of the walk seemed to put him in full panic mode. We led the pack on the return of the walk. Sitka didn't pull, but scratched at the halty and generally seemed defeated. I was in tears seeing him react the way he did, feeling guilty that I put him in this situation.

This morning, Sitka was a totally different dog on our usual morning walk. When he saw his harness and leash he went and laid down in his bed. I had to force it onto him, which I've never had to do before. He was skittish throughout the walk, jumping up when leaves blew - he practically jumped into my arms when a branch touched him! He has never, ever, been this skittish or nervous, and I cut the walk short because he seemed so traumatized.

In addition to the events of last night/this morning, I have been in discussions with a different trainer while I'm making arrangements for his next class. After describing the actions and organization of his current class, the second trainer had this to say:

"Generally the idea of working in many environments sounds appealing. It sells well because people think that they are out in the “real world”. Most people want their dog to behave in the real world, so it seems like it would make sense to do that.

When it comes to training well, it’s not on solid ground. It would be like saying you wanted your kid to play hockey. Instead of signing them up for skating lessons to start, then running drills, you put them in a game. All they would be capable of doing is falling flat on their face. The skills are not strong enough to hold up against the real world. What you end up with is a dog that is frustrated. Frustration starts to lead to things like wanting to “do anything but walk with you.” A lot of stopping and waiting for the dog to refocus etc. 
[...]
I would caution against putting any friendly dog into an environment with aggressive dogs. It’s pretty much the opposite of good socialization. We rarely socialize a dog to or around dogs with issues. They should learn to avoid dogs that might do them actual harm."



So what's the deal? Have I traumatized Sitka by putting him in a situation where he is destined to fail?

Have I made the wrong choice in trainers? Sitka's basic obedience (focus, sit, down, stay) has improved substantially.


Maybe it's just residue from last night's frustration, but I feel as though every decision I make is a wrong one. I only want the very best for Sitka, but it seems for every piece of advice there is equally as much contradicting advice!:crying:

I often post on this forum, and I read the posts daily. I appreciate the wealth of information and the varying perspectives. That being said, I'd like to add the caveat that comments about 'weak nerves' or choosing the wrong dog to begin with aren't helpful for me. I have Sitka now and he seems to be regressing in his leash etiquette around other dogs. I'm afraid the training may not be helping.

thank you for your input on training suggestions, trainer suggestions, and whether or not I've traumatized 8 month old Sitka already.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I like the second trainer a lot better than the first trainer based off what you posted. I don't expect my dogs to be friends with other dogs but they are expected to behave appropriately when other dogs are present. That I believe comes from the connection and bond between Sitka and you.
Without having read your other threads I would say ditch the group stuff and train with just him and you. Develop the bond where you are his world. Then slowly move into situations where distractions are present.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I would think your dog would bounce back and recover. I am in agreement with what the second trainer that you quoted said. I train dogs and never do group classes. If I had a bunch of reactive dogs, especially with novice handlers the last thing I would do is expose them to other reactive, nervous or poorly behaved dogs in a group class. 

I have 3 dogs, 2 GSD's and a Dutch Shepherd. If I have a reactive dog or a dog aggressive dog I will take out one of my dogs on lead and use that dog as an example of how to behave. It also let's the handler correct the dog in a safe setting. One of my dogs is very dog aggressive, however he will not look at another dog. All of my dogs have intense focus on me when I say "look." That makes all of them capable of being around other reactive or aggressive dogs. They simply focus on me and ignore everything else in the world. 

Walking a dog should be a fun and relaxing event for a dog. Fashioning a halti out of the leash for your dog is a bit extreme. When the trainer starting with that, I think that would have been an excellent time to leave. I would have taken my dog and had a nice long walk back to my car and said adios to that trainer.

Why does your dog need to be in group classes anyway? What benefit do you really get from walking with 5 other dogs? I really do to think your dog has the fundamentals mastered well enough to be "proofed" in that type of setting.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Thank you @cdwoodcox and @Slamdunc for your input. This forum really is a blessing these days.

I am definitely considering ending things with this trainer. I also found the halty thing too extreme. I hate to quit something half way through when he has been improving on most things, but I also don't want to do any more harm. Unfortunately, I can't afford the 2nd trainers one-on-one classes until sometime in the new year.

I chose to put him a group class because I have little experience with training and I thought it would be a good learning environment for myself, and some socializing for him. You can only learn so much from reading GSD and training books. I was under the impression that one-on-one classes were only for very difficulty dogs, or show dogs... another misstep :frown2:

I chose this particular class because it offered the different outdoor environments, longer classes (1.5hrs) and higher frequency (twice a week for 6 weeks). 

I very recently moved to this side of the country with Sitka, with no contacts, and I work all day. I thought this class was a good opportunity for urban exploration, and giving him more of a challenge then our normal back woods solitary hike.

I hope you all are right in him bouncing back. He should enjoy our walks and become more and more confident. It brings a tear to my eye just thinking about how downtrodden and nervous he was this morning. I had to coax him to his food bowl because he was skittish about the shadows on it!

What can I do now? Should I stop this training immediately? Should I continue training at all, or give him a break and re-focus on the basics? Should he be around other dogs at all? As mentioned, I am new to this side of the country and so other dogs means a) this obedience class b) dog parks (yikes!), or c) trying to find fellow dog owners on local groups to walk with.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sorry to hear you had such a frustrating experience in the class! But don't beat yourself up about it, Sitka is a lucky dog to have someone like you caring for him and trying very hard to do what's right for him!

If it were me, I definitely would not expose him to another of those class sessions!

Did you try the advice given in the thread you linked above? That's what I do, and it takes some time, but it's working really well for my puppy! 

Another thing to keep in mind is that puppies go through stages, one day it'll be the dog you know and love, and on occasion it'll be almost like another dog entirely! My puppy went through a fear stage at about 9 months. She was really good around other dogs while on leash, then one day she was back to being berserk - which for her is a fear reaction. I just backed off the socialization for awhile, choosing to work on other stuff until she seemed normal again. Now at 10 months she's almost back to where she was at 7 months LOL. But it's a process, not a race!

Just focus on Sitka. When he's getting overly frustrated, take a break.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Thank you @cdwoodcox and @Slamdunc for your input. This forum really is a blessing these days.
> 
> I am definitely considering ending things with this trainer. I also found the halty thing too extreme. I hate to quit something half way through when he has been improving on most things, but I also don't want to do any more harm. Unfortunately, I can't afford the 2nd trainers one-on-one classes until sometime in the new year.
> 
> ...


A million dogs go through group classes and do fine, so now you know its not for you and your dog. Same here. I wouldn't bother seeking out dog friends for him. As you make friends, maybe they'll have dogs, maybe they'll get along. Just let that happen, without forcing it. I think the biggest thing for you is going to be not letting your feelings about bad experiences influence his. A bad incident one night, don't you dwell on it. There's a good chance thats why he's down, he's reacting to you, now.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I would definitely stop going to those classes. Your dog doesn’t need to be friends with or walk with other peoples’ dogs. I would probably take a step back and work on engagement with him. Be fun. Let him see that you are more exciting than anything else out there. I would also not be letting him meet other dogs on leash. All that does is breed expectation of meeting the other dogs, which leads to frustration, which you have seen. The goal should be a dog that focuses on you, as slamdunc said. Don’t fall into the trap of letting your dog put so much value on other dogs that he cannot be managed.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Sorry to hear you had such a frustrating experience in the class! But don't beat yourself up about it, Sitka is a lucky dog to have someone like you caring for him and trying very hard to do what's right for him!
> 
> *Thank you *
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> A million dogs go through group classes and do fine, so now you know its not for you and your dog. Same here. I wouldn't bother seeking out dog friends for him. As you make friends, maybe they'll have dogs, maybe they'll get along. Just let that happen, without forcing it. I think the biggest thing for you is going to be not letting your feelings about bad experiences influence his. A bad incident one night, don't you dwell on it. There's a good chance thats why he's down, he's reacting to you, now.



You're absolutely right. I knew in the moment Sitka was feeding on my energy too. Its very refreshing to see over and over that I/We don't need to focus so much on dogs having dog friends. Is it just me, or has 'socializing' been pushed in the mainstream? I felt like if I didn't properly 'socialize' Sitka on an ongoing basis he would turn into a loose cannon, ready to fight/flight at the sight of any dog. 

Thanks for the good advice... its' back to just Sitka and I for a little while.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> I would definitely stop going to those classes. Your dog doesn’t need to be friends with or walk with other peoples’ dogs. I would probably take a step back and work on engagement with him. Be fun. Let him see that you are more exciting than anything else out there. I would also not be letting him meet other dogs on leash. All that does is breed expectation of meeting the other dogs, which leads to frustration, which you have seen. The goal should be a dog that focuses on you, as slamdunc said. Don’t fall into the trap of letting your dog put so much value on other dogs that he cannot be managed.


Gahh.. your words and a bit more time to relax and I'm realizing I was wound into a coil of stress and frustration. "Be fun" - Duh! How could I forget this? It's what its all about, right?!

Thank you!


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

*Update*

I'm happy to report I didn't traumatize Sitka into a scared little puppy! He bounced back like the champ he is. He was ready to greet me with leaps and bounds as soon as I walked in the door.

After a short walk, I went to the store and bought him a real halty - no more leash-halty-trauma-tools. I gave him lots of treats and put it on gently in a safe space. I can't say he loved it, but he was happy on his walk and not scared of a thing. He even got to sniff some ghoblins and ghouls in the neighbours' yards!

I will be expressing my concerns to the trainer regarding the group sessions, and what I think was a far too stressful situation to put Sitka (and the other dogs) into in the first place. Hopefully we can arrange private sessions or some sort of an arrangement where I can be sure Sitka will not be in that setting again. If not, we'll end the training and return to one on one.
We will definitely be working 100x more on building the owner/dog relationship, and refocussing on the basics. No more dog-on-dog-walks for this pooch! 

Why its so hard to remember that it is the dog-owner relationship that is most vital, and that its supposed to be fun, is beyond me. 

As I've said before, I am very greatful to all the helpful hands on this forum. Thanks for the kind words, excellent reminders, and expert tips.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> Why its so hard to remember that it is the dog-owner relationship that is most vital, and that its supposed to be fun, is beyond me.


If it was easy, anybody could do it > 

You'll be fine, Sitka will make sure of it!

Again, all the best to you both!


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

Hey Ruth,
Your pup is about 10 months old? 
I would suggest to drop the group class for now like others have said, along with the harness and halti.
Work individually and use a prong collar until you have a SOLID obedience. Watch some videos with an open mind. They are not torture devices and they really do work.
I would still take him places but don't allow close contact with other dogs. 
Your pup needs to know he can trust and rely on you in every situation, he doesn't need to step up. You will take care of the world. And that takes time. Work with him and have him focus on you. And when it's just the two of you, you both can relax and enjoy each other. And that's what matters right?
Good luck


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Why its so hard to remember that it is the dog-owner relationship that is most vital, and that its supposed to be fun, is beyond me.


Because when we get out there trying to follow along with directions in the group, you think he's going to do this, but he ends up doing that, and we end up struggling trying to get him back into this. Its harder to pay attention to your own dog sometimes, and attention has to go both ways. I think you'll like working one on one with him a lot better.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Your dog will be fine. I think you tend to over analyze things and stress a little too much. I'm not a fan of the Halti, nor of trainers that would train a dog with one. 

Just relax and have fun with your dog. Group settings are distracting for the dog, dogs get over stimulated and handlers get nervous, anxious and embarrassed. Once you get anxious the dog picks it up immediately. I would strongly recommend finding a better trainer, one that can train motivationally and boost your and Sitka's confidence. One that can teach you to relax and how to properly handle your dog. A trainer that makes the sessions fun and not stressful and lessens anxiety. Once you and your dog are comfortable, calm, relaxed and Sitka is under more control, then go to a group class to proof behaviors. I really think it is too much for you to focus and for Sitka to focus in that setting. Putting the leash around your dog like a halti for you to be able to walk the dog is a real issue for me. 

The great thing is that you are committed to your dog and looking to do the best thing for your dog. Be patient and relax, it is all going to work out. I'm sure your dog will surprise you.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Evohog said:


> Hey Ruth,
> Your pup is about 10 months old?
> I would suggest to drop the group class for now like others have said, along with the harness and halti.
> Work individually and use a prong collar until you have a SOLID obedience. Watch some videos with an open mind. They are not torture devices and they really do work.
> ...


Yes, he just turned 8 months this week. I am quite sure I'll be dropping the group classes and refocusing on him and I, with maybe some one-on-one training sessions.

Although I think the prong collar can probably be a really great tool in the right hands and for the right dog, I don't feel confident using it. Sitka is a very sensitive pup (as shown by his reaction to and after the mentioned session). The last thing I want to do is chance scaring him or making him dislike walking because I have misused the prong collar. As well, I have zero experience with prong collars or anything like them. I've always been around dogs but living in the far north, training was a second thought. Sitka is the first that I am focusing so much on training, and we're just not ready for the prong collar. 

Until recently Sitka didn't mind the harness at all, but it didn't stop the pulling very much.

What are the issues with the halty? Aside from trying to pull it off on the grass sometimes, Sitka doesn't seem to mind it. We haven't seen any dogs yet while wearing it, but it stopped him immediately when he tried to chase a squirrel.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Why its so hard to remember that it is the dog-owner relationship that is most vital, and that its supposed to be fun, is beyond me.


Because we worry too much about what other people will think, and how they will judge us.

Work on your relationship with your dog, and everything else will fall in place.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

@Slamdunc - Well I can't argue with that! Sitka has too many distractions, and I have not enough distractions from whether or not I'm doing the right thing on the dog front


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Castlemaid said:


> Because we worry too much about what other people will think, and how they will judge us.
> 
> Work on your relationship with your dog, and everything else will fall in place.



Thanks! 

Northern BC I see... Sitka and I are from Whitehorse, YT!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The Yukon! Nice!!! I guess I can't act like I live in the coldest place on earth anymore - you got me beat by quite a bit!


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Castlemaid said:


> The Yukon! Nice!!! I guess I can't act like I live in the coldest place on earth anymore - you got me beat by quite a bit!


We moved south a few months ago, so you still win :wink2:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yeah!!! don't have to give up my "don't whine to me about cold winters and short days" holier-than-thou attitude. Phew, I was worried there.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Yes, he just turned 8 months this week. I am quite sure I'll be dropping the group classes and refocusing on him and I, with maybe some one-on-one training sessions.
> 
> Although I think the prong collar can probably be a really great tool in the right hands and for the right dog, I don't feel confident using it. Sitka is a very sensitive pup (as shown by his reaction to and after the mentioned session). The last thing I want to do is chance scaring him or making him dislike walking because I have misused the prong collar. As well, I have zero experience with prong collars or anything like them. I've always been around dogs but living in the far north, training was a second thought. Sitka is the first that I am focusing so much on training, and we're just not ready for the prong collar.
> 
> ...


If I were a dog, I would rather have a prong around my neck than a halti.

I absolutely despise them, they make my skin crawl. I've done martial arts for a long time now (kickboxing, bjj, etc), and I've had my head and neck jerked around like you can do with a halti. It's not fun to put it mildly, I'd rather get punched in the face. 

https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/02/10/the-head-halter-torture-pain-and-nonsense-explained/

ETA the above link is an excellent explanation of why i hate them.


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Until recently Sitka didn't mind the harness at all, but it didn't stop the pulling very much.
> 
> What are the issues with the halty? Aside from trying to pull it off on the grass sometimes, Sitka doesn't seem to mind it. We haven't seen any dogs yet while wearing it, but it stopped him immediately when he tried to chase a squirrel.


The harness isn't meant to stop the dog from pulling. It's taking the pressure off of their neck. That's why sled dogs are wearing it.
The halti is not as innocent as it sounds. The dogs nose is very sensitive. The dog will stop pulling because it hurts.

I've had dogs my whole life. When I had to take my dog to the vet a few months ago I had to look for a leash. I used to live in the middle of nowhere and our dogs run loose all the time. I moved to Orange County for work in the beginning of the year and got involved with the GSD rescue group. That's when I saw the prong collar for the first time. I did some research online about prong collars because I too had my doubts. I found Jeff Gellman has EXCELLENT videos about them, how to fit, how to put them on, how to use them. I am a firm believer. The key is to learn how to use it correctly. It's pretty simple and everyone can learn it. When used correctly it is ABSOLUTELY safe and humane. That's why I tell everyone before you start using it, educate yourself.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Tennessee said:


> https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/02/10/the-head-halter-torture-pain-and-nonsense-explained/
> 
> ETA the above link is an excellent explanation of why i hate them.



Thanks for the article. 

I want to reiterate that I do not think prong collars are a torture device. I don't know know how to use them, I've never seen them used, I'd only first heard about them a few months ago. I'm not saying I would never use one, but at this point I don't have the knowledge, nor do I have a trainer I trust to teach me on the proper use.

This is the first time I've heard these arguments against the Halti. While the extremist tone of the article puts me off a bit, I think it makes some really good points and I'll definitely be looking into it. I can assure you I would not have put the halti on him if he put up resistance. It's very loose on his face and he doesn't seem to mind it most of the time. It's only on when we are walking in the neighbourhood, and I haven't yet pulled on it at all.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think the basic problem with a halti is the same as a prong. People will sometimes rely on them to restrain their dog, depend on some discomfort to control them and never teach their dog to behave. I think that kinda becomes a default with a halti, just from the design of it. Up over the snout like that is kinda restrictive no matter what.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Thanks for the article.
> 
> I want to reiterate that I do not think prong collars are a torture device. I don't know know how to use them, I've never seen them used, I'd only first heard about them a few months ago. I'm not saying I would never use one, but at this point I don't have the knowledge, nor do I have a trainer I trust to teach me on the proper use.
> 
> This is the first time I've heard these arguments against the Halti. While the extremist tone of the article puts me off a bit, I think it makes some really good points and I'll definitely be looking into it. I can assure you I would not have put the halti on him if he put up resistance. It's very loose on his face and he doesn't seem to mind it most of the time. It's only on when we are walking in the neighbourhood, and I haven't yet pulled on it at all.





I'm not trying to say you're a bad person for using one! 

I personally use a prong because my pup is a puller and gets very excited around other dogs. I put it on her every time we leave the house and if she acts up, she gets a simple light pop of the leash. Just like you would do on a flat collar, it's just more effective. With the caveat that, by more effective I mean a flat collar was flat out not effective at all. I could literally pick her front legs up off the ground by it and it would change her behavior for all of 2 seconds. 

What I AM saying is this, you've got a 8 month old puppy It'll be another 2 years before he's really mature. Right now he's doing puppy stuff! You pushed him past his threshold the other evening and his puppy behavior got out of control, then your trainer used a makeshift device for you to control him and force him to finish the exercise.

Instead of continuing this forcing of behavior by use of restrictive device, i'm encouraging you to take a step back and take the long view. I'm not telling you, you need a prong or halti or anything! I only mentioned it because you brought it up. Just scale back the pressure and make sure you've developed a proper foundation of trust & obedience. And let him be a pupper and grow a bit. When he knows what he's supposed to do and is engaged with you, then would be the time to proof like you did in that class. 

What I'm trying to big picture get across is that I've learned not to try and force or pressure a young dog (that's immature but otherwise mentally sound) to meet my expectations if I can't do it the old fashioned way. Practice, Practice Practice. It just means he's not ready, and that's either my fault for not training enough or nobodies fault and it's just nature. And I certainly wouldn't force the dog through means of unnecessary devices that he's had a bad reaction to. 

It's frustrating as all get out sometimes, but in the end it's worth it. Anyways that's just my $0.02, and worth what you paid for it. Good luck with your training :grin2:


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

@Tennessee

Haha, I didn't think that! As frustrating as this all gets, I don't take any of it personally! I read everyone's advice and get at least $0.02 from it.

Sitka is definitely a puller when it comes to anything that moves: dogs, leaves, squirrels, you name it! He's 70+lbs of pure puppy energy, and though I'm tough as ****, I'm slight in stature  A flat collar does nothing to stop Sitka from pulling, and my right arm and neck will soon look like that of a body builder if I don't stop the pulling!!

I'm going to take this weekend to go for a few good long on and off leash hikes and just let Sitka be a my happy lil adventure partner :grin2:

Thanks all!


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