# Thoughts on physical correction..



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Ok... let's not get crazy here.. and try to keep this civil..

There was a posting on FB asking for advice on getting their 13 week GSD through the landshark phase.. one person said "give them an old fashion smack on the nose, it'll do the trick." I was nice and explained why this isn't the correct response to that and gave alternative advice. This person proceeded to get amazingly defensive saying she has raised puppies and do exactly what the mother does with a littler of puppies (which she stated to have had a litter), harsh correction for an unwanted behavior.. and all people who train dogs with no physical correction had piss poor dogs.. Well duh, not true, obviously. 

Anyways, brought up my line of thinking. I don't physically correct my pups for much of anything (though there was a time I had this thought process too).. but I do believe there is a place for a physical correction.. but not just crazy, "smack my dog for this or that because I didn't teach them correctly." I have my own opinion on mimicing what a mother in the wild would do to her pups when they get out of line, but was curious to hear what your thoughts were.... please don't go "well I'll just smack the owner if they smack their pup.." I'm genuinely intrgued to hear educated responses on the misconception that because out in the wild a mother snaps and growls, sometimes pins, for an unwanted behavior, that an owner must be just as physical to get them to understand.. 

(let's keep this clean please, people  )


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great topic. I had one set of ideals on this when Summer was very young. I have another now. 

When we arrived at the breeders property. She had 5 acres open but the property was in the country and had hundreds of open acres around it. The male was outside to roam but the female was kenneled. 

The breeder let the female out and she and the male took off and raced and raced for the sheer joy of running free. My pup was loose getting to know us but soon took after mom. The male (sire) just stopped her, took her whole head in his mouth and gave all kinds of language about leave your mom alone, she needs to run. He did this several times. She stopped chasing her mom. It was so cool to witness this and understand that this was a father educating his daughter.

That said, I tried the only positive training method with her. (mostly influenced by posts on this site). After one year, where my other dogs raised had been so much further along in obedience, she was lackng. I have recently mixed it up a bit and have gotten positive results.

I correct when - walking on leash - long sit- long stay. That's it. I feel these three things are life saving and must be obeyed no matter what distractions.

My recent training is simply focused on these three things. Since she is a year old now, my training has increased. On any given walk, regardless of how busy the street is or the distractions - I require her to heel always, sit and/or laydown as many as 15 times per short walk. 

I use a prong collar because she dragged me around from 4-8 months. If she does not sit or laydown, I will do a small pinch above her butt to get her attention. These skills are not a game, they are life savers. Not treat training, or please or try till it works. 

She is the personality that would love to jump up and greet everyone on the street, but I cannot allow her to do that for her safety she is 75lbs. A couple of people who just wanted to play with her walking by, I felt so bad but physically corrected her and kept her in place and training. I must look like a horrible person with a very sweet dog, but she needs the training and "cookies and encouraging talk" did not cut it with her.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I do believe that you have soft dogs and hard dogs.. and the harder the dog, the harder to train with positive correction. Like I said, I believe there is a place for physical correction. The pop with a proplerly used prong, is one of those.. I used them on Titan when we were having lead issues. Ultimately decided to switch to a martingale and have had better results. 

The reward for Titan also depends on the willingness to learn a desired behavior. If I have a treat, he's ok, if I have a ball he is "what in the world do I need to do to get that" makes trianing intense and pretty accurate. 

I just don't know how much the whole "in the wild" deal really relates to our dogs that are so much more domesticated. They do many things in the wild that we simply don't allow here.. they went days without eating sometimes, they killed other pack members, etc... we wouldn't allow that.. but somehow mandhandlingyour dog for something like, going potty in the house, or being an annoying puppy, is ok.. 

I will admit that I did smack Titan once or twice for going potty in the house when he was a puppy.. I will also admit that I was very uneducated on the subject to begin with. But I have not smacked his butt, or anything of the sort more than a handful of times because I learned better ways and he is sensitive to my moods. When I am angry with him, he knows.. A simple "No! Go to bed" will get my point across. Now if he ever did something extreme, he may get a physical correction, but something simple, not so much. A lot of fault is usually on the handler for improper knowledge (like me in my case when Titan was a baby) or people saying "in the wild they physically correct thei pups, so I will to!"


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Totally depends on the dog.

Sabi would take a harsh correction, and shrug it off. She was a partner dog. 
Buddy is impervious to all but a bat to the head when he's 'on'.
Shadow wilts at a frown. A smack on the butt sends her to her belly. From me. With anyone else she fights back, like a demon dog.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I always tell people that want to use smacks and harsh handling that they can act like an animal if they want.

I'm going to use my brain that has been evolving for thousands of years to solve the problem instead of just reacting to it.

Plus there is so much more to dog communication, it's impossible to know if we are truly mimicking the body language of a mother dog and sending the message we want to send when we react harshly to a puppy or even a dog. We may have the physical correction in there, but we don't have expressive ears or tails or four feet on the ground to shift stance/weight to communicate like a dog does. Using just the physical correction a dog uses in a social situation leaves out so many other nuanced body movements that we just can't replicate. Therefore I feel like it's impossible for us to actually successfully mimic a dog in "their language" as these types of people seem so obsessed with.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. I won't go into detail but done the right way you can quickly rid a dog of a behavior that most people struggle with for weeks months or years without undesirable consequences. Done wrong you teach a dog to run from you, be hand shy, or fearful.

Has nothing to do with dog language or mimicking a bite or anything that silly. It's correct application of positive punishment and negative reinforcement depending on how you apply it.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys! I get it in certain situations but do you think it has merit in simple things like potty training and the "land shark" phase? (curiousity peaking)


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I do not represent myself as an expert on dogs.....but just to weigh in on the physical correction issue I believe that as in raising kids there are certain matters where a stricter discipline is warranted but it should be fairly and properly applied. Any form of reinforcement whether negative or positive should be evenly balanced with the behavior that elicits it and given the consideration of the age/experience/intelligence level of the recipient.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I shy away from its use in potty training. Potty training is more about routine and conditioning them to do it outside. I do punish intentional marking. I use it for any refusal to perform known behavior or any behavior I am trying to eliminate. This includes land sharking.

I am extremely consistent and extremely fair. One of the greatest sources of anxiety for me in daily life is failing to properly correct a behavior I'm trying to get rid of and somehow miss either through failure to notice the behavior or failure to correct it in time for it to be understood. Makes me feel bad.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I wouldn't use a physical correction for potty training or for the whole landshark phase. I think, when a dog is that young, it doesn't know what you expect of it so a physical correction would be unfair. Teaching bite inhibition for biting and being consistent with taking a puppy outside every hour will get you much further, in my opinion. For an adolescent or adult dog, I will use fair physical correction such as a pop on the prong if they are refusing to do something they know how to do, if the dog can handle it. Bash can handle a fair physical correction (mild pop on the collar). I get positive results from him with it. I do use positive reinforcements to teach him what I want him to do. My other dog can't even handle a raised voice, so no physical corrections for her. When we first got her, we took her to a terrible trainer who put her on a choke chain and used collar pops to "teach" her stuff. All that accomplished was teaching her that we would hurt her. I'm not saying that method couldn't work for some dogs, but it definitely didn't work with Roxy. Positive reiforcement training with praise and pets as a reward (along with withholding praise and pets as a punishment) works much better for her.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I have no issue using a physical correction on a dog AFTER I have taught the dog to understand what it is I want from them, and they are not doing it. 

I don't correct during potty training, teething, landshark phase, I guide, teach, breathe, learn more patience, try something else. 

If however, at a certain age (i.e. 6-7 months) and we have been working very well at loose leash walking BUT the dog flat out goes nuts when it sees a squirrel / rabbit, etc. then I will do a physical correction. 

The correction MUST be timed perfectly, and it MUST match the intensity of the dog's energy. 

NOT an easy thing to do but once you get it the dog gets it too!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Baillif said:


> *I use it for any refusal to perform known behavior* or any behavior I am trying to eliminate…..





Kyleigh said:


> I have no issue using a physical correction on a dog AFTER I have taught the dog to understand what it is I want from them, and they are not doing it.


I quoted both these posts because I think it's important to mention that many people can't distinguish between a dog that isn't doing what you want because you haven't sufficiently trained and generalized a particular behavior yet, and a dog that knows exactly what you want but blows you off anyway. Time and time again someone will come on the board and express frustration about their "stubborn" puppy that refuses to obey them when it knows, KNOWS, what sit means, or down, or stay, or heel, or whatever, and yet it's clear that the poor dog really hasn't quite figured it out yet, because it's still a puppy and couldn't possibly be fully proofed under a variety of situations yet due to its age. And the problem with that mindset is that they're looking for something wrong with the dog rather than examining where they fell short in their training efforts, where they were not as clear or consistent as they could be, or where they might need to manage the environment to maximize the puppy's opportunities to succeed, and minimize opportunities to practice bad behavior. 

I guess that's what bothers me about the kind of thing the OP is talking about. What those people don't seem to realize is that any time they're training their puppy to do or not do _anything_, they always know exactly it's supposed to be learning, but they fail to recognize that the dog doesn't have that information going in. Just because your puppy will sit on cue most of the time in your kitchen doesn't mean he knows the command and will sit anywhere, at any time, with any level of distraction. That all needs to be trained, which takes time and deliberate effort, and until then, it's not fair to use a harsh correction for non-compliance.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kyleigh said:


> I have no issue using a physical correction on a dog AFTER I have taught the dog to understand what it is I want from them, and they are not doing it.
> 
> I don't correct during potty training, teething, landshark phase, I guide, teach, breathe, learn more patience, try something else.
> 
> ...


And this is why I like you.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Baillif said:


> There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. I won't go into detail but done the right way you can quickly rid a dog of a behavior that most people struggle with for weeks months or years without undesirable consequences. Done wrong you teach a dog to run from you, be hand shy, or fearful.
> 
> Has nothing to do with dog language or mimicking a bite or anything that silly. It's correct application of positive punishment and negative reinforcement depending on how you apply it.


I agree 100% with Bailif. I would only add that it also depends on the temperament of the dog. Currently I have a hard Czech boy who was abused the first 2 years of his life, which does influence some things. But he is pretty impervious to pain, and excellent timing with a correction is absolutely imperative with him, short and sharp when needed, and then it just gets his attention. My female, on the other hand, is sensitive to voice, and any type of physical correction would put her on her back, tail between her legs. And, funny thing, she is the most aggressive of the two, with humans it is primarily fear aggression, but she is also a rescue and came with no information about her first year.

Past dogs I have raised, some hard, some soft... I had a hard eastern European dog (from the late 80s), and if you used a sharp physical correction, you would have a fight on your hands that you'd better be prepared to win. While training, ignoring even teeth when he rebelled was the best strategy--when he figured out it wouldn't work (and it never took long), he complied and was one of my best boys.

Dogs (esp. GSDs) aren't popped out by cookie cutter when it comes to temperament--you know your dog, and you train appropriately.

And, no, I am not a professional dog trainer (horses, yes, in my younger years). But I have had GSDs for nearly 50 years.

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I quoted both these posts because I think it's important to mention that many people can't distinguish between a dog that isn't doing what you want because you haven't sufficiently trained and generalized a particular behavior yet, and a dog that knows exactly what you want but blows you off anyway. Time and time again someone will come on the board and express frustration about their "stubborn" puppy that refuses to obey them when it knows, KNOWS, what sit means, or down, or stay, or heel, or whatever, and yet it's clear that the poor dog really hasn't quite figured it out yet, because it's still a puppy and couldn't possibly be fully proofed under a variety of situations yet due to its age. And the problem with that mindset is that they're looking for something wrong with the dog rather than examining where they fell short in their training efforts, where they were not as clear or consistent as they could be, or where they might need to manage the environment to maximize the puppy's opportunities to succeed, and minimize opportunities to practice bad behavior.
> 
> I guess that's what bothers me about the kind of thing the OP is talking about. What those people don't seem to realize is that any time they're training their puppy to do or not do _anything_, they always know exactly it's supposed to be learning, but they fail to recognize that the dog doesn't have that information going in. Just because your puppy will sit on cue most of the time in your kitchen doesn't mean he knows the command and will sit anywhere, at any time, with any level of distraction. That all needs to be trained, which takes time and deliberate effort, and until then, it's not fair to use a harsh correction for non-compliance.


:thumbup: Yes to all this, too!

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I shy away from its use in potty training. Potty training is more about routine and conditioning them to do it outside. I do punish intentional marking. I use it for any refusal to perform known behavior or any behavior I am trying to eliminate. This includes land sharking.
> 
> I am extremely consistent and extremely fair. One of the greatest sources of anxiety for me in daily life is *failing to properly correct a behavior I'm trying to get rid of and somehow miss either through failure to notice the behavior or failure to correct it in time for it to be understood.* Makes me feel bad.


Baillif, my guess is that this rarely happens. 

Susan


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks for the awesome responses guys! I completely agree and is something I now stand by... the dog KNOWING the behavior and then blatantly disregarding it would be the appropriate time with the appropriately level of correction, timing being of the essence. That comment by that girl just got me thinking how many dang people get it into their heads that everything needs a physical correction because "that's what mom would do!!" I still don't know how much merit I hold with that statement. Yes there are things that they do in the wild, and some things we carry over when domesticated but we have have brains, we know better, and I believe that we have domesticated to that point of understanding. If that weren't the case, then you could go take a wild dog and "train" him appropriately and then bingo! It is so so different that i don't think, unless you are talking about biology and make up, to compare and mimic habits of wild dogs. One of the other posters suggested to bite the dog on the ear because, again, that's what mom would do. *sigh*


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> And this is why I like you.


AWWW ... I like you too Jax!

I'll add a bit more to my post ... 

For a correction to be effective, and for the owner to NOT come across as a bully, nag, PITA, whatever, the dog MUST understand that it didn't do what you have taught it to do. BUT ... the onus is 100% on the owner to ensure that you have taught the dog in all likely situations ... in other words "bomb proofed" the dog. 

At 7 months Kyleigh knew the sit command better than she knew how to breathe. (Yes, some sarcasm has been inserted here). 

If we were walking and I stopped and said sit, and she didn't, she would get a LIGHT physical correction ... could be a tap on the butt, could be a slight pop on the collar, a poke in the neck ... I would NOT repeat the command ... because she KNOWS what it is 

I have a pretty soft dog, so my corrections do not have to be harsh .... there were two occasions where I had to be more physical than I wanted to be ... but the occasion demanded it. 

When she was about 8 months old I had her in a down stay at the end of the room, and I was sitting at my computer. My parrot was in her cage and she decided to take a bath in her water bowl ... Kyleigh LEAPED across the room at Echo, and I was thankfully, quick enough to flip around and grab her by the scruff and drop her to the ground. A solid LEAVE it and I brought her back to her bed. 

I worked very hard with her for the next month or so in keeping her in a down / stay while Echo was in her cage. About 6 weeks later she did it again. Same result ... BUT ... it also let me know that she will probably NEVER be 100% calm around Echo. 

Barriers went up and Kyleigh is never allowed in the bird room again. 

Those are the types of physical corrections that I am referring to. 

And at the end of the day, it's also important to realize your dog's thresholds ... Ky was fine with Echo as long as Echo didn't move ... as soon as Echo moved - lunch in a box!!!! Then, the onus is on me to do something different, or in this instance, say forget it ... because my parrot's life is more important than the two of them getting along!


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

I completely agree with all above, it depends whether the dog is just being a jerk or he doesn't know. I have made a few physical corrections with Bear. 1. Scruff of the neck when he chases the cat. They can play, but when Dexter wants to escape he is to let him. (He doesn't wear a collar unless on leash). 2. Putting his nose near the table. He knows this is wrong, we have dealt with it repeatedly in the last little while. He now tries to hide it, so I think its a deserved grab by the scruff and off to whichever room we are not. I have also started putting him in his crate when we have food, in hopes he will eventually just go in there. 3. His landshark behavior was horrid, he got my face repeatedly, kids, everything.. Nothing worked, so I started holding his muzzle shut. He is now teething and rarely nips, only when really excited and you can just say no bite and he stops. He walks well on a leash, rarely do I need to give him a slight pop to get him to continue.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I do physical correction for dogs on behaviors they don't know yet when I want that behavior eliminated. The puppy doesn't know not biting my hands isn't ok with me so I will nag correct the puppy first to let the puppy know exactly what it is that I am not ok with. After 5-6 nag corrections if the behavior continues I will escalate to a level that lets the puppy know I am dead serious about it. Once we are to that level we may stay at that level unless the dog becomes more socially sensitive and it isn't necessary. It helps the dog learn exactly what behavior is causing the consequence without being unfair to the dog.

With super hard dogs or even super soft dogs punishment done right it can become more of a social thing. The intensity of a correction becomes a lot less important after you establish an understanding of what your relationship is to the dog and what is expected and also as the dog gains understanding about what is being corrected and how to properly respond to it. The intensity is really dependent not just on each dogs temperament but also on your relationship with the dog and how the dog is responding to punishment. A dog might cower or shriek but not change it's behavior that you are trying to get rid of because it sees the cower or shriek as a form of escape from serious consequence but isn't really irritated enough to stop whatever targeted behavior you're trying to be rid of. A dog likewise might have barely any reaction to punishment at all but stop the behavior you are targeting. In the first case you escalate, in the second you don't even though the apparent read on the dog might suggest otherwise.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

My Newlie is not a hard dog by any means, he would probably be a piece of cake for most of you. He is a softie but then so am I, to an extent. He is a sweet boy but many times when I give a command, he will think about and then do it in his own sweet time which is aggravating. He likes treats but is smart enough where he doesn't want to comply unless I am holding a treat which is also aggravating. He was doing well with the prong and actually still has a good recall as a result of the e-collar, but I haven't been using either one lately and he has backslid a little bit with sits and stays. I am feeling stronger lately and really need to get him back in training,


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I think there's a wide range encompassing physical corrections.

Yes, my puppy got a squeeze to the muzzle and a "NO BITE" for nipping, because attempts to teach bite inhibition (redirection, "YIPE," etc) had not worked. I regret not going to that immediately because I think she would've gotten the message faster, but I was listening to "positive reinforcement only" people who practically recoiled in horror if you mentioned corrections. Next puppy? I'll tailor my method to that pup's personality because that pup might be less happily and confidently hard headed than this one, but I will be a lot less hesitant about a pop to the training collar or a light muzzle squeeze if it's needed.

Do I strike my dog? No. Absolutely not. I have never even tapped her on the nose (light tap to the butt to remind her to sit, yes, I have done that).


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Interesting how many people believe there is a place for physical corrections. Truthfully I expected way more "omg! No! Never!" I have always been a believer of circumstantial correction. With Titan it depends what we are doing... if we are treat training.. or just normal behavior.. he is pretty sensitive. Raising my voice is enough to get it across that he is doing something wrong.. When he is in training with a tug or another high value toy of my choosing, he is a much harder dog.. I wonder if that's because of the reward value? But truthfully I haven't had to truly eliminate a behavior with physical correction, but maybe a couple times. Going after our puppy for no reason (that I could decipher) was one.. and a pop on the collar was pretty regular when he tugged too much on a walk or run.. Sometimes there's a butt tap when he won't sit instantly on a stop while on a lead... but not much more than that.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs are less sensitive to physical correction in higher arousal states.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

That makes sense Ballif... and would explain a lot.. lol


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## Matt O (Jul 4, 2015)

Hey newbie alert, I have a 7week GSD. So of course the teething & biting almost everything is expected. I've read & few said don't let your pup do things you won't allow them to do when they are older, as of now he chews on the couch blankets etc etc things I for sure won't like him destroying when he is older. When he does it now I do a firm NO, "ack ack", or even clap my hands or try and place a toy in front of him, needless to say some time he listens sometimes he don't... Any tips ?


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

When Finn was 5 months he started this lunging behavior when he wanted attention.
That lunging escalated into what seemed to be aggressive lunging.
Snapping and Lunging over and over.

One night, I was dozing on the couch and my husband was reading the paper and Finn started his crazy lunging routine, several times my husband tried to settle him and then BAM! All **** broke loose. Finn lunged with an angry growl and a snap of his teeth... 
My husband jumped up, smacked Finn across the snout with the news paper and yelled CRATE. Finn yelped and ran into his crate.
That was the last time he lunged like that for attention.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The frustrating part for me, is when they know a thing, and "intentionally" backslide. That may not be the proper term, but hopefully it conveys my meaning.

Mine is still young, so she still gets a pass if she reacts inappropriately because it is a new situation she is in. But I know I must immediately focus training to stop it.

Then, there are times when she becomes a mule - and I can tell by body language and this look she gets in her eyes, that she if flat out saying "No, I don't want to and you can't make me". The look is communicating to me - I want to play - not do this other thing.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Make it happen and when it happens release the dog into what it wanted assuming that is possible. Had a beagle learning loose leash walk on prong yesterday and it saw a girl that she knows from the boarding and daycare side and the beagle immediately tried to pull for her because she wanted to say hi. I corrected and corrected and made the dog do what it was supposed to do and when it gave me a few seconds of good behavior that I wanted i released the dog to go meet her. Was super rewarding to the dog and after that she did the behavior happily.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am clicker training an 8 month old....I also have a 4.5 month old at the moment....both these dogs are high energy, high drive. The younger has over the top prey drive - real prey....there are times that redirection does NOT WORK - it does NOT engage the dogs desire which is focused elsewhere! Unfortunately, most people who are adamant and condemn physical correction have never really experienced a strong, high drive dog....my pup with the cat focus is very hard, has learned that she MUST leave the area of the cat and sit beside me....but it does not break her focus, only her physical behavior.....yes, she has had physical corrections.....no they have NOT damaged her personality, confidence or attitude.....

There are certain circumstances with high drive dogs that there must be black and white signals - no questions no room for misinterpretation.....in order to progress to more advanced training/behaviors, the appropriate foundation for those behaviors must be ingrained and totally understood.

This puppy will lie down or sit and the cat will approach her and even lie beside her. Her intent is NOT to kill the cat, she just wants to interact with it, or chase it if it runs....the cat is very dog savvy and actually loves Csabre better than any other living being....

There is a place for physical correction - not for every single behavior at every level, but for a strong, high drive dog, there is definitely a place.

Lee


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I heard someone in physical therapy put it this way. To hurt is not necessarily to harm. When you need to put a maladaptive behavior to rest before the dog or someone else gets hurt as the result of a dogs actions this goes into play.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Make it happen and when it happens release the dog into what it wanted assuming that is possible. Had a beagle learning loose leash walk on prong yesterday and it saw a girl that she knows from the boarding and daycare side and the beagle immediately tried to pull for her because she wanted to say hi. I corrected and corrected and made the dog do what it was supposed to do and when it gave me a few seconds of good behavior that I wanted i released the dog to go meet her. Was super rewarding to the dog and after that she did the behavior happily.


Very similar situation. The couple coming toward us the other night was exiting a dinner place and were dressed very nicely. Summer has learned to keep her 75lbs in a sit when strangers approach but, the minute they say "oh what a good dog" or similar, she leaps on them, gushing with joy that they love her and she loves them back. At which point, I don't exist to her. She is oblivious to the prong correction or anything else. All I can do at that point is leverage my body and fight to gain backward ground until I can get her off them. She doesn't mouth but she's a puncher with her front paws so her greeting can be pretty punishing. 

I have two friends that helped me train with the initial sit when a stranger approaches and it took me holding the collar, one guy holding her butt in the sit position while the 3rd approached. It was a struggle and we had to repeat it many times before she could contain herself.

At the vet's office. The assistant lays on her with his whole upper body to get her enough under control that the vet can do what he needs to do. No aggression, just freak out excited happy dog...

I don't see those understanding dog guys much, so I'm trying to train on my own.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Matt O said:


> I've read & few said don't let your pup do things you won't allow them to do when they are older, as of now he chews on the couch blankets etc etc things I for sure won't like him destroying when he is older. When he does it now I do a firm NO, "ack ack", or even clap my hands or try and place a toy in front of him, needless to say some time he listens sometimes he don't... Any tips ?


Yes - puppy proofing management. He shouldn't have access to things he's not supposed to chew. Don't let him on the couch, remove, the blankets, keep him on leash, whatever you need to do. 

When mine were all puppies I had lots of toys everywhere, so at any given moment I could grab one and play. It's not going to happen overnight, but eventually, they learned what was theirs and what wasn't. In the meantime, their opportunities to chew stuff that wasn't theirs were minimized.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> I have two friends that helped me train with the initial sit when a stranger approaches and it took me holding the collar, one guy holding her butt in the sit position while the 3rd approached. It was a struggle and we had to repeat it many times before she could contain herself.


For something like this, rather than two people forcibly holding the dog in place, I'd teach the dog that their own actions affect the outcome of a situation. I'd show the dog that making good choices gets them what they want. Doing it this way, I'm not sure what the dog is learning. I want my dogs to learn to control their own impulses without having to physically restrain them all the time, and why they should. Also, you can train it with just yourself and one other person.

Simply put her on leash and have her sit. Your friend should be far enough away that she can maintain a sit. If she breaks her sit as the friend approaches, the friend stops. Wait until she sits again (you can cue it if you want). If she's too excited and won't sit, the friend backs away until she calms down. Think red light/green light. She remains calm and sitting, green light - person approaches. She breaks the sit, red light - person stops and may get further away. She learns that the only way people will get close enough for her to greet them is to stay sitting until released. I like to have a "go say hi" cue to release my dogs to greet someone.

We practiced this in one of Halo's puppy classes. There tethers all around the room. Everyone put their puppy on a tether and we all walked around the room greeting each one. When the puppy was calm, we approached and offered a treat, and then moved on to the next one. It didn't take any of them very long to figure out that good things happened if they calmly greeted people as they approached.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Summer has learned to keep her 75lbs in a sit when strangers approach but, the minute they say "oh what a good dog" or similar, she leaps on them, gushing with joy that they love her and she loves them back.


I think the part I need help with is the jumping. She sits ok now, but - it's like the pressure just builds, so when I release her from the sit. She jumps on people. Her goal is to face kiss. I've never let her do that with me, ever, and she doesn't try, but she's fast and strangers ending up getting a much more personal greeting than they bargained for.

It's like she has no respect for other people unless they are quick with a pre-arranged sharp "No" command.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't normally condone or advise for "gadgets" like no pull headcollars and harnesses....but I think there may be a "no jump' harness....in lieu of having good help to train - you may have to resort to this WHILE continuing to reinforce verbal/clicker markers...

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

"no jump" harness. I just looked it up. That is quite the contraption!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks, I'll check into that. It's hard to think of negative correction when I do want her to be friendly with strangers (that I select can pet her) She could ultimately end up being unfriendly to all because of an imposed negative correction. 

Her criteria is different than mine (she likes bums):


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's nonsense. The dog will only associate the correction with the act of jumping on a stranger. When it doesn't jump that's when affection can occur. The dog would only learn to associate corrections and strangers if you were correcting them for just being in the presence of strangers and that's not what you are doing. You correct for a very specific behavior and the dog learns to descriminate.


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## Matt O (Jul 4, 2015)

*Puppy proofing*



Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yes -
> When mine were all puppies I had lots of toys everywhere, so at any given moment I could grab one and play. It's not going to happen overnight, but eventually, they learned what was theirs and what wasn't. In the meantime, their opportunities to chew stuff that wasn't theirs were minimized.


Alright good deal ! Thank you. I'm gonna spread his toys & see what happens ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> That's nonsense. The dog will only associate the correction with the act of jumping on a stranger. When it doesn't jump that's when affection can occur. The dog would only learn to associate corrections and strangers if you were correcting them for just being in the presence of strangers and that's not what you are doing. You correct for a very specific behavior and the dog learns to descriminate.


Thank you. I will break it down that way. I looked at the anti-jump harness. Between that and the prong - not a good look for the city streets.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Stone, it'll be easier if you don't approach it randomly when you come across people here and there. Some consistent repetition will make it clear to her. Set it up with someone to get some reps.


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

Yes, factors are the individual dog, the owner, and the level of 'infraction'.

Some things that work for me, may not be the best for the next owner.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

sourdough44 said:


> Yes, factors are the individual dog, the owner, and the level of 'infraction'.
> 
> Some things that work for me, may not be the best for the next owner.


I agree with this, dog and owner make the determination..


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This Leerburg article pretty much sums it up:
Leerburg | The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

I suggest everyone reads the book: "the man who lives with Wolves". 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Man-Who-Lives-Wolves/dp/0307464709

He goes to live with Wolves as a lower pack member. And totally immerses himself in their 'way of life'.

Very interesting read. How the wolves communicate their 'way' and teach him the ropes to co exist with them. How they constantly test, and correct him, without killing him. Accepting another species as a lower ranking member of the pack.

It really shows what is acceptable when the wolves have the control instead of the humans. And it shows the way they communicate and co exist harmoniously.


Now when a dog enters a human home he needs to learn rules too. And has to learn to co exist in a human world.

My personal thoughts are you correct for breaking house rules off the bat. 

Rather than correct however first comes management not giving dogs opportunity to engage in rewarding rule breaking activities. or redirect unwanted behaviours.

And you Only correct for disobeying well known generalised commands after being taught positively.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Some context from terrierman, on that particular series. 

Terrierman's Daily Dose: National Geographic's Phony "Wolf Man" Stunt


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lol

Also people correct dogs before they understand and generalize a behavior all the time it's called negative reinforcement and any trainer worth a crap does it.


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## Yggdrasil (May 13, 2014)

This is my two cents....Some dogs depending on their temperament will need very little corrections others need more. It also depends on the drive the dog is in. For a true correction the dog needs to understand what is being asked of him. My dog is very high drive and rather hard. He is the definition of a land shark. We tried distraction, saying ouch or whimpering, scruffing, not giving any attention and leaving the room for a given time, etc. The only thing that has significantly helped in reducing this perfectly normal but very annoying puppy behavior has been inserting a finger or two and pushing it in the back of his throat. I couple this finger maneuver with a firm toned "off". He dislikes that very much and then stops biting. I find the easiest way to dissuade him is to take the enjoyment of the misbehavior away. It is not necessary to go overboard. Another example... My pup loves to chew the stones on the fireplace. We tried the bitter sprays which had no effect on him. I did find he dislikes it when you blow on his nose. So every time he starts biting the stones I blow in his face and give a firm toned "off". He then becomes bothered and finds something else to do. He now is starting to link up the unpleasant feeling of the blowing on his face with chewing on the stones and has reduced the frequency of this behavior. Every dog is different. I found with my dog I needed to find the little things he dislikes and only use them when appropriate with a consistent firm verbal cue. Timing is also VERY important. I also believe any type of correction needs to happen the moment the behavior needs to be corrected, otherwise you just confuse the dog and nothing gets accomplished. There are so many nuances to behavioral modification, it certainly is not an easy task. Patience is definitely key. I always make sure I am in control of myself so I don't overreact. If I feel I need a time out I place him quietly in his crate. He has been trained to love his crate.


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## robrymond (Sep 7, 2014)

What are peoples thoughts on pinning the dog down? I watched a Channel 4 documentary on a dog handler (here in the UK) and he said pinning a dog down is a great way to show who is the alpha male.

I'm not talking pin him down until he stops breathing, but a firm control of the dog.

I'll admit I've pinned mine down when he was misbehaving and going like a landshark round the place. A quick wrestle to the ground so he is on his side and a firm 'Stop' and you can see it in his face that he knows he has done wrong.

Then I let him get up and give him a fuss and everything is back to normal. He is now maturing into a fairly well behaved dog. 

As for smacking on the nose, this achieved nothing with me as it said 'playtime' so I've avoided that.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've had to pin dogs for being a danger to myself other dogs or themselves but it isn't out of dominance or anything it's just a quick move to get a crazy dog under control before the situation escalates. Dominance theory is bunk.


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## zudnic (May 23, 2015)

In general no physical corrections for learning positive behaviors. But on some things, like not stopping biting, it turns into a game, needs to be stopped. Other things like picking up rocks on a walk or chewing electrical chords. Things that could kill the puppy, need immediate and strong correction. Yes, even physical.


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