# Retrieves?



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anyone have any good sites, articles, videos, or personal opinions/experiences on training the retrieves? I do not intend to seriously train this without my club/TD and I know the methods will depend on the dog, but since it's something I've never trained any dog before I'd like to study up beforehand, and maybe play with teaching my older dog first just for a little experience (she does not do SchH competitively but I do train her in a variety of things for fun and for more experience).

So far I liked the video of the bi-color dog learning the retrieve with a clicker and backchaining, and also the video Denise made clicker training Malachai to hold the dumbell. I would like to use positive motivation as much as possible. My dog likes to fetch naturally and brings his toys back to me for more fetch or for tug so I'm hoping I don't have to force the retrieve.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies, 

The most important thing to remember when you are training retrieves is that it is 40% of your OB score, so it is well worth it to take your time and do it right from the start. 
I see a lot of people in a hurry to get their dog to go out and get the dumbell and bring it back, but, to me, this is a mistake. The first thing that should be taught, in my opinion, is the hold. My dog does not touch a dumbell until "hold" is solid.


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

I would agree w/ Art - teach the hold first. I have a prey retrieve and can not figure out how to stop my dog from spitting the dumbell at my feet. When I tried to correct it my dog refused to even go out to the dumbell. It took a month for her to even want to go ot to it and she still spits it. We failed our SchH 1 this October because of it - 40 points adds up quickly.......


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Ollie,

Sounds like you have a serious problem! Have you come up with a plan on fixing this?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks, great advise. I don't even own a dumbell so I couldn't train wrong if I wanted to, lol. Are there different methods for training the "hold"? The only one I'm familiar with is basically clicker training it with treats or a ball under the chin.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies,

There are many ways to make "hold", just like any other aspect of training. To be honest, I always make a "forced" hold, usually using a nylon choker and electric, though I have also done it with just electric and with a pinch collar. But for me the nylon choker and electric work best. I know you said that you did not really want to do a forced retrieve and I am sorry that I can not offer you advice on making "hold" without compulsion, as I really do not know how to do it well in that manner. I will say though that I have seen some people with excellent retrieves that have trained it without compulsion, and hopefully they will chime in and offer some advice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks Art. I'm not against compulsion I just wonder how well it would work in this scenario with my dog. He learns quickly when the "compulsion" is more along the lines of negative reinforcement than positive correction (if you are familiar with the quadrants of operant conditioning). I think this is because he's sensitive to me, so corrections can have the effect of literally making him drop what he's doing/holding and look at me or come to me. He can take some hard corrections but it depends on when they are given (is he being corrected because he did not obey or is he being corrected because I'm using negative reinforcement to actually train a new skill?) and where the dog perceives them as coming from. I've not had great luck using corrections while tracking like when the head starts to come up, but most of it is probably my lack of experience and not yet figuring out what correction works without actually causing him to stop tracking and look back at me. On the other hand, corrections work well during heeling and such because I want the dog in the correct position near me and focused on me anyway ("hey dog, get at my side or in front of me and look at me!"). If I use compulsion as negative reinforcement (apply pressure/corrections until the figures out what I want and does it), then it works quite well I think. We've taken a little break from SchH training and I've been doing some Rally training (silly, maybe, but I'm a dork and do all kinds of stuff with all of my dogs) and he responds quickly to this type of training without being confused or showing avoidance. For example, in SchH he does the finish around my right but for Rally he has to do the flip finish as well (as well as both style about turns) so I taught him the flip finish and the left pivot/military turn by basically applying pressure with the pinch collar while keeping his head in position and he learned that I wanted him to flip his butt back. The faster and more precise he flips, the less pressure on his pinch collar. This way I don't have to "correct" him for doing it wrong because I controlled it from the beginning and did not allow him to do it wrong, only allowed him to control the pressure by doing it right.

I just have this vision of using compulsion for the hold resulting the dog just wanting to drop the dumbell instead, but I could be totally wrong. Hence why I'm interested in different ways it is trained. I don't want to be limited just based on the limited types of training I have experience with (which would be the clicker style).


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

I got a very nice retrieve out of my mutt by back chaining with a clicker.


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## Hundguy (Apr 30, 2003)

It's a good idea to have a solid basic position and sit-front before starting.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I like the backchaining method the best. 
Here is a good article on it (the article is not about SCH though, just general retrieve): 

Reliable Retrieve
http://www.dogscouts.org/Dog_Activ-_Retrieve.html


Here is an interesting video of a Malinois being clicker-trained to "retrieve" money!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VinyOlIsyg


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies,

Negative reinforcment is exactly what is being done in this situation. When done correctly you actually will end up with quite the opposite of the dog wanting to drop the dumbell, he will not want to out it. What is basically done to start is this:

The dog is back-tied and pressure is applied, the dog is commanded "hold", when the dog opens its mouth an object (I use a PVC pipe) is placed in its mouth and pressure stops.

He will promptly spit it out, and pressure resumes. He is commanded "hold". When he again opens his mouth the object is again placed in his mouth and pressure stops. 

Very quickly the dog learns to take the pipe when he hears "hold". Also, pressure is applied for any mouthing or not holding the pipe firmly.

Typically within 15 min. or so you will have the dog taking the pipe and holding it firmly. 

This is how it starts.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI like the backchaining method the best.
> Here is a good article on it (the article is not about SCH though, just general retrieve):
> 
> Reliable Retrieve
> http://www.dogscouts.org/Dog_Activ-_Retrieve.html


That is how I taught Kayla and it worked great. After you progress from awarding for spitting the object out to awarding for the dog waiting for you to take it, extending the hold becomes an easy progression. If I remembered it took 2-3 sessions to get there so it can happen pretty quick.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgLies,
> 
> Negative reinforcment is exactly what is being done in this situation. When done correctly you actually will end up with quite the opposite of the dog wanting to drop the dumbell, he will not want to out it. What is basically done to start is this:
> 
> ...


Thanks for breaking it down. I've never seen it done so always wondered. How is it done different with a pinch vs e-collar? Is there any reason to use one or the other; does it depend more on the dog or what tool one prefers?


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I really like the way it is explained and taught in the Balabanov & Duet book (Advanced SchH). It breaks it down into small individual exercises before putting it all together, with a focus to have a solid individual piece before progressing to the next step, so it does help to prevent having to go back to "fix" something that was taught incorrectly/too quickly. You can get it pretty cheap on Ebay for a used copy or Amazon (I think aorund 17.00). The basic synopsis below is is a pretty common way to teach this exercise (lots more info in the book with more detail though): 

*Step 1 is just the retrieving phase *(not the dumbell specifically, but any toys etc). This is a foundation step. Sounds like your dog already knows the retrieving game so there you go - you have step 1









*Step 2 is the Holding Phase*. This is the one phase that requires the most time and effort to work through (especially if one has a "premature dropper" dog) to achieve that calm holding picture (eg not chewing or rolling the dumbbell). Starting with a smaller plastic AKC dumbbell is the object they suggest to use but I just started off with a wood dowel with eyelets on the end with string tied on (to tug gently at to ensure she had the dowel firmly in her mouth and it wouldn't slip out). Don't make this dumbbell a "toy" though - it is strictly for holding only at this point and the reward is only for clam holding. This phase is presented as "no big deal" and calmly taught with mudance type minor corrections if they are needed only (dropping the dumbbell). At first, the dumbbell is put in the mouth for a fraction of a second with you lightly cupping the muzzle so the dog holds it and can't spit it out right away. Then out and reward (mark the hold behaviour [eg you can use a clicker or "marker" word] before outing and reward). Don't worry about being in a formal position at this point (eg front position), as you can start to bring that into the picture only after the dog understands that _holding the dumbbell _will get the reward. They also talk about the corrections as being small light bumps under the chin if the dog spits the dumbbell out but I would think this type of correction will depend on the dog (you don't want avoidance behaviours coming into the picture here) and shouldn't be introduced until you are positive the dog understands what hold means. Each time you work on the holding phase, only do it for a few minutes at a time. Once you are ready to introduce the formal front position with the dumbbell in the mouth, you can start using your formal command for the retrieve (eg bring) when the dog is in that position (eg have dog sit in front of you, present the dumbbell, say "being", dog takes dumbbell and holds, you mark the hold in this position with click or "good bring" or whatever your marker is). Very important step here to _mark the correct position & behaviour_. So dog understands "bring" = position of sitting in front of you while holding the dumbbell firmly but calmly. This step is hugely important (consider it the "safe zone" where the <u>dog wants to end up/be with the dumbbell</u>), because if he understands this, then when you are ready to toss the dumbbell and you say "bring" he knows _what "bring" means and where exactly "bring" is_. 

*Step 3 is Carrying phase*....ONLY introduced when the dog has a reliable hold for extended length of time. Carrying is only done for a few steps maximum to start (even one step). Expect that as soon as the dog starts to go in motion, he will likely tend to spit the dumbbell out so be prepared to help him work through this. Then work up to longer distances. Don't rush the distance thing. Avoid going for too long a distance so as to prevent the dog from spitting it out. Eventually, the dog should be able to heel or walk around with the dumbbell without spitting it out (So at this point, understands that while in motion must still hold the dumbbell even though he is not in a startionary position). 

*Step 4 Carrying and the Releasing*....as above, only add the formal release command in the front position. I actually taught the formal out during the holding phase. 

*Step 5 Distractions *(eg presenting toys, working up to favorite toy of all or food etc) so the dog knows it _must continue to hold the dumbbell even in the presence of other desirable objects_. Be sure you are reinforcing and marking the "hold" when showing the distractions. 

*Step 6 Introducing the formal dumbbell *(eg SchH dumbbell or whatever object it is you want him to do a formal retrieve with). At this stage of the game, you can either toss it a few feet or lay it down in front of you while he is sitting close to your side (so he can see where the dumbbell is). If you think he might take off with the dumbbell rather than bring it back to you, make sure he has a long line on so you can reel him in. 



If at any time things are going backwards more than forwards, move back to an earlier phases and start again from there. Best thing is to go super slow with all this to avoid errors, as once those start being made, its all the harder to fix. 

Hope this helps - I found this technique worked very well and we have a pretty darn nice looking reliable quick retrieve with no chewing or rolling (with some modifications that I did along the training way such as the dowel with the strings on the end). I think we spent pretty much 2-3 months over the winter just working on the holding phase before moving on to the next steps. 

I do think that training a motivational retrieve can take longer than doing a forced retrieve, but at the end of the day I also think that whatever method that works best for both dog and handler, so long as the end result that we all want is there, is the way to go. 

Lots of different ways to peel a potato, but in the end, the potato is still a peeled one!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks! Wow did you just write all of that?


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I actually have it saved as I typed it out for my own personal reference since it seems to be a common discussion piece and I wanted to have it in my training notebook instead of hauling all my books around with me to training!









The book explains it far better, IMHO though!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeThanks for breaking it down. I've never seen it done so always wondered. How is it done different with a pinch vs e-collar? Is there any reason to use one or the other; does it depend more on the dog or what tool one prefers?


 I like to use the nylon choker with the e-collar, the reason for using both is at later stages you can use the e-collar to reinforce the "hold" in all parts of the retrieve. The problem with just using the e-collar at first is that you do not have physical control of the dog so it is more difficult for the trainer, and it is not as effective in forcing a dog to open his mouth. If you use a pinch collar, it is not used in the typical fashion (Ie. it is not used to "pop" the dog but rather used to "choke") The problem with the pinch, in my experience, is that it is not as effective (as a choker) in forcing the dog to open his mouth initially and dogs seem to fight against it.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I will also add that I like to use the forced retrieve for more than just making good retrieves. I believe that through this exercise the dog learns what compulsion means and you are therefore able to use compulsion effectively in many exercises.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks for explaining the difference in tools. That makes a lot of sense. I was also wondering how the pinch is used but you've already answered that question. That may work with my dog after all.

And I agree with the second post. I think that it is more than the ends justifying the means, but that it's important for the dog to learn how to work through pressure and control pressure. Sometimes I think that clear communication is much more important than always using a positive method first. Even if I had a dog that could learn everything correctly 100% positive I'm not sure what value that would be, at least in Schutzhund. I need to know whether or not my dog can work through pressure with a clear head which is why I've already chosen to train a few more simple behaviors this way even if it could have been just as quickly accomplished by freeshaping with a clicker or lure/reward type training. But I also freeshape because I want my dog to be "operant" and "proactive" (offer behaviors freely, try to figure things out without needing to be directed with toys/lures or physically coerced). I would rather have balance in training and in the dog's thinking than get things done clean and fast and I think dogs are smart enough and contextual enough that you can use a variety of tools and methods depending on the skill and not "confuse" the dog.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:Sometimes I think that clear communication is much more important than always using a positive method first.


To me it should always be about "clear communication".









To many people create conflict with their dogs when teaching dumbbells..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Very true Leesa no matter the method used.

Lies, I would not try a forced hold/retrieve of any sort without help no matter how well it is spelled out for you in writing.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthLies, I would not try a forced hold/retrieve of any sort without help no matter how well it is spelled out for you in writing.


No. This is certainly not something that you want to do on your own if you do not understand it completely. Also, my posts were not intended to be a how-to guide. They were only intended to give a general idea of how it is done.


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## alaman (May 3, 2006)

Trained one by playing a game. Tied the dumbell to a rope, swung and dragged it around and got the dog to chase it. Next, let him have it some. Then tugged with him. He got used to holding it. Then threw and sent him for it which he thought was a game. Had him bring it back while I backed up encouraging him. Then the out.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

There is an element of compulsion even with motivational techniques. I know a few handler/trainers that built a fine retrieve motivationally until one day the dog decided not to retrieve. The dogs only needed some pressure/correction to make the correct decision and the issue was solved. The forced-fetch is best done with those who have done it correctly. You can ruin the whole exercise if you go too fast or not make the exercise crystal clear for YOUR dog. I started with motivational method then decided on forced retrieve after a long time. I botched up my forced retrieve and spent several months re-building with motivational. We still have some avoidance- as my dog never clearly learned to "turn-off" the pressure. I will go the motivational route forward, but I would do a forced retrieve if the motivational method doesn't produce results. oNE HAS TO HAVE A TOUGH GUT TO DO THE FORCED RETRIEVE. THE DOGS CAN STRUGGLE AND IT CAN BE PAINFUL TO WATCH. It was a tough few weeks for me and my dog and I wish not to go that route again. 

With my pup I am shaping the retrieve in the course of non-competitive play. Meaning no issues of possession of the toy. I have a narrow hallway with few distractions and I toss the toy out a short distance and call him back to me, gently I wait for him to out, or I tickle the top of his mouth for him to drop. NOT an out exercise- and the game begins again. I won't shape the hold until later (he is only 12 weeks old). At that time I will begin to backchain. I have become less a fan of the dumbbell being the reward to tug. This made my dogs a bit chewy on the DB, a no-no in schH. And its hard on their teeth and the DB!
We'll see how it goes!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Zahnburg
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lhczthLies, I would not try a forced hold/retrieve of any sort without help no matter how well it is spelled out for you in writing.
> ...


No worries, as I said in the original post I have no intention of training this on my own besides possibly trying it with my older dog (but that would be for the CD and not for SchH obedience and NOT with compulsion since she doesn't have the right temperament for it). Not only do I not understand it completely, I barely understand it at all. I don't even have the tools (dumbells, dowels, etc) to do it even if I wanted to. I'm just interested in how others have done it, food for thought.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Does anyone know....

In the ORIGINAL Schutzhund 1 test, how many retrieves were there? How many points each? What was the scoring criteria? 

Was it a test of retrieve instinct, or a test of withstanding training pressure, sometimes extreme? 

Food for thought.... if you haven't ever thought along those lines.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There were two retrieves. One on the flat and one over the jump. They were worth 10 for the one on the flat and 15 over the 1 meter hurdle.

It was all a test of a dog's willingness to work with the handler, athleticism, drive, temperament and character. As far as training methods used; training during the early years involved far more pressure than what most dogs see now. The dogs had to endure a lot to get to a SchH1 so only the best dogs were titled. Our breed also was still the number one working dog in the world. More Food for thought.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, excellent, excellent, point. Many people don't see the correlation between the changing of the original Sch test and the demise of the breed in working throughout the world. Under the old Sch test you would not have the workinglines/showlines situation, because many dogs today who are undeserving temperamentwise would not be able to be titled to Sch 3 and in many cases even a one. Soooo, these dogs would get eliminated from the breeding genepool in Europe and thus you would have to use otherlines to bring up the work, so that they could get the title so that they could be shown. With that in place the dogs that people would breed or get puppies from sight unseen(VA and BSP dog), would be producing thetype of dog that would have kept the breed the top working dog in the world. Excellent point, Lisa!


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

I was talking about going all the way back to the first SchH tests - 20s, 30s, etc. Not changes in the past 20 -30 years.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Christine, I think that Sch remained fairly consistent from the thirties to the seventies. I may be wrong, but the changes of the last thirty years, changed the breed in lowering the bar to allow for stucural changes to take place that decreased speed, agility,mobility, increased size, clumsiness, and generally removed the dog from top of the utility world. I think the retreives of the 20,30's were in line with the way sch was done in the sixties,seventies, before the bar was lowered.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

My questions were just for discussion -


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So what is your view on the retrieves?


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