# On her first day home, GSD puppy protects my children!



## Mountain Mom (Mar 15, 2017)

We brought Koda home yesterday, all of 8 weeks old. My daughters daughters decided to take her for a walk along their favorite waling trail (a paved path through a grassy park behind our home). They came to a place where the path goes under a bridge. 

When they approached the bridge, Koda began making strange vocalizations and refused to continue walking. The girls tugged on the leash, but Koda sat down and refused to budge, continuing to vocalize. My older daughter then looked ahead and saw a coyote lurking under the bridge. 

On her first day home, I am already thankful to Koda for protecting the family. Good dog, Koda!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nice - BUT -- the pup was scared and had that coyote come out from under the bridge that pup would have been a SNACK.

so why didn't the coyote come out in pursuit ?

long walks for a pup this age - not so good for many reasons .


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## Mountain Mom (Mar 15, 2017)

carmspack said:


> nice - BUT -- the pup was scared and had that coyote come out from under the bridge that pup would have been a SNACK.
> 
> so why didn't the coyote come out in pursuit ?
> 
> long walks for a pup this age - not so good for many reasons .


1.) Obviously the pup could have been a snack, but so could my daughters have been attacked had the pup not warned them. We live in a city, so it's not every day you expect to see a coyote. The pup did protect my girls and I'm thankful.

2.) How would I know why the coyote didn't come out in pursuit? 

3.) When did I say it was a long walk? I would say they were out about 25 minutes. 

4.) Are you always this positive?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

25 minute "forced march" is long for an 8 week old pup.

the pup is dealing with leaving litter , new home, new everything -- that is a load on the immune system 

then the walk --- 

and kids might run in spurts or walk too fast -- or not stop for rests just for the pup to catch his breath

ideally a pup that age should have unlimited free movement - their choice 

the ligaments and muscles are not developed - joints in jeopardy

the pup saw the bridge and he cried out --- oh no - a bridge too far --- and a coyote !

I live rural with coyotes all over the place . Adults walking their pets , small dogs , on a residential side-walk have had their dogs attacked , and one of small dogs was carried off --- 

We have enough members on the forum familiar with the Whitby area that might remember these .

so -- never mind a coyote , what if there had been a dog running loose who wasn't friendly or got too physical , or some big-kid or some up to no good guy who likes the pup and takes it.

an 8 week old pup does not protect your family .

they are not socially developed to do so.

YOU have to protect the pup.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I bet your girls are so excited to have her at home. 
Carmen's point I'm sure is that your pup was scared and unsure not protective. She's just a baby and it will be as long time before protective traits may appear. 25 minutes seems to be a long walk for a baby that is just settling into her home. I would just let her play in the yard, you'll be able to tell when she's ready for a nap..?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Mountain Mom said:


> 1.) Obviously the pup could have been a snack, but so could my daughters have been attacked had the pup not warned them. We live in a city, so it's not every day you expect to see a coyote. The pup did protect my girls and I'm thankful.


 The thing is ... people luv to, quibble over the nuances of words. 

To be accurate ... your puppy "alerted" your kids that there was something up here and wisely your kids heeded his unexpected change in behaviour??? 

The fact of the matter is ... you unknowingly put all of them into a bad situation and you got "lucky." It worked out fine this time ... and now you know ... there be Coyotes here. Luring dogs ... is how dogs get killed ... by Coyotes, just saying. 

Cam ... did not tell you anything you did not need to know. An unheralded skill in properly raising training a puppy/dog is the ability to recognize ... good information when you see it. Most likey that is more of an artform than a skill??? 

Oh well in closing, I'll simply say ... that a lot of people that end up having issues with there puppy/dog ... usually have the word "protective" in there post somewhere ... I see it often.

You have a heads up puppy there ... it's up to you to do the rest. Welcome aboard.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Carmen is correct. The puppy got scared. That's not to say when your puppy grows up it won't be protective of your family, but right now it's a baby. It's like the nine month old child that cries when a stranger comes near it when it's siblings are walking it around the park. 


I wouldn't be taking an eight week old off my own property. The trail may not be used much but all it takes is one dog to have been there that is sick and you will have one very sick puppy. Let the puppy romp in your yard, it'll stop when it gets tired, something it can't do on a walk. 


You have a very adorable puppy, enjoy him at home until he at least gets two shots from your vet.


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## Mountain Mom (Mar 15, 2017)

Oh, you guys like to think you know better than everyone. Get off your high horses. You created a torturous scenario in your minds brought about by my supposed ignorance, and now you are "generously" coming along to "educate" me. This is not my first GSD pup, nor my first dog. I am very experienced as a mother to my kids and my pup. 

1.) This was not a "forced march" - they were allowing her to set the pace and stop and sniff. In 25 minutes they probably went about a quarter of a mile (the bridge is that close). She had a great time. In fact, I took her out myself later for a walk of a similar nature, and she enjoyed it very much. To allow a puppy to explore for 25 minutes is not cruel. Turning her into a couch potato is. I am well aware of issues regarding GSD hips and do not force exercise upon her. I also carry her up and down stairs. I'm not stupid you know.

2.) My girls are in high school and have raised many animals. They are very good with animals or else I would not have trusted them to take the puppy out. Why do you assume they are little kids or incompetent? 

3.) Chip said: "you unknowingly put all of them into a bad situation and you got 'lucky.'" You jump to copnclusions based on....? Based on nothing but your own assumptions. My family lives in an urban environment but we are aware that coyotes are here, though somewhat rare. I am active outdoors as are my kids, and we always carry pepper spray in case of threats (creeps, coyotes, stray dogs). My girls both had their pepper spray with them, and yes they have practiced using it in case of necessity. But isn't it better that they didn't need to? Being alerted to the presence of a coyote IS a protection for my kids. You can't expect high school kids to hide in their home. My kids are active and they carry protection, and they have practiced using it. But isn't it far better to be alerted in advance and not NEED to use it? 

P.S. Chip: You said that Cam did not tell you anything I did not need to know. Correction: Cam ASSUMED I did not know something and therefore jumped in to both CRITICIZE and correct me. All based on baseless assumptions. 

I'm pretty new to this forum, but if this is how the people here are, I won't be here long.


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## Mountain Mom (Mar 15, 2017)

For another thing, an alert to danger IS a protection to my family. If I had installed a burglar alarm system and it alerted us to an intruder, I would also say it had protected my family on its first day. And if you have a family and a GSD, besides loving the GSD as a member of the family, I'm sure you also appreciate its ability to protect your family in any way, including alerting to danger.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Please don't get defensive. All anyone is doing is making suggestions based on the information they have in front of them.

More so than the coyote, my biggest concern would be parvo and other illnesses. Puppies at that age are very susceptible to illness and all it takes is one step or sniff in the wrong area and you could have a very sick puppy on your hands. I hear way too many stories of pups dying from parvo because they went out before getting at least two rounds of shots.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

If you stay and as you read some of the questions and situations that new members post about, you may understand. I and others may jump to conclusions. I pictured little girls, probably because of my granddaughter. I still would wait for vaccines to be done before taking out on walks but that's me. And your dog alerted but didn't protect, glad nothing bad happened with the coyote.


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly with kimbale's comments. Walking the pup out in public at 8 weeks is taking a great risk, the immunity provided by the dam is wearing/worn off and the pup has not had the opportunity to build its own immunity yet.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww gezzz ... even without meaning to ... I seem to have done what I seem to do??? Ticked a newbie off??? I guess that to is an artform???

Moving on "anyway" ... these days in North America ... pretty much everybody lives in Coyote country. I saw one once about about 30 yards away at our local 7/11. And one night on a walk, "Rocky off leash had point and I followed him. He gets underneath one of our rare widely spaced streetlights and stops cold??? 

I watch as he peers into the darkness Ears up on high alert?? He shifts his head left and right ... then looks at me, turns around and heads for home??? I stand there as he leaves and heads back to home??? I look and listen peering into the darkness?? Of course I see or hear nothing?? But I do know ... I've taught my dog to "Make Good Choices." I turn around and follow him home! I have no idea what was out there?? But he has not that since and we still walk at night.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I'm very concerned about puppies that age picking up dangerous, even life threatening diseases like parvovirus. Koda is not safe until he's had his shots. What has the vet told you about taking him off your property?

You'll find opinions vary around here as to how many shots are enough. Your pup picked up some immunity in mother's milk, assuming she was properly vaccinated. That immunity will wear off, but no one knows precisely when. So pups get a series of shots.

As for the types of shots, that's regional. Your vet will have her own vaccination protocol.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would worry about a puppy that might be protective at eight weeks. If that is the case, it's not a good thing. Protectiveness naturally happens at a much older age when the dog can tell a threat from something that scares them. It may have looked like protectiveness but at eight weeks, a puppy can't tell a threat from something else. It is more likely fear or aggression.

You need to be aware of how your dog reacts to other animals, because what your teens saw could escalate into aggression toward other dogs, which is not a good thing. You are brand new here. Please take what is said in the way it was meant. This is a public forum and the people posting here are all volunteering their time to help you. We could all be doing something else with our time. I'm sure you were upset at reading why is posted, but if you go back and reread, it's not there to upset you but because we all love our dogs and want to help others enjoy theirs too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> I would worry about a puppy that might be protective at eight weeks. If that is the case, it's not a good thing. Protectiveness naturally happens at a much older age when the dog can tell a threat from something that scares them. It may have looked like protectiveness but at eight weeks, a puppy can't tell a threat from something else. It is more likely fear or aggression.
> 
> You need to be aware of how your dog reacts to other animals, because what your teens saw could escalate into aggression toward other dogs, which is not a good thing. You are brand new here. Please take what is said in the way it was meant. This is a public forum and the people posting here are all volunteering their time to help you. We could all be doing something else with our time. I'm sure you were upset at reading why is posted, but if you go back and reread, it's not there to upset you but because we all love our dogs and want to help others enjoy theirs too.


here are two mountain mom quotes

"They came to a place where the path goes under a bridge. 
When they approached the bridg Koda began making strange vocalizations and refused to continue walking. The girls tugged on the leash, but Koda sat down and refused to budge, continuing to vocalize."
AND
"In 25 minutes they probably went about a quarter of a mile (the bridge is that close) 

In fact, I took her out myself later for a walk of a similar nature"

that one quarter mile is a great distance for a pup that probably has only experienced tripping around in a house or whelping room , flopping whenever the excitement of play and social interaction got to bee too much and taking restful naps for the greater part of the day (which is how it should be) .

When I look at the "incident" report I would say the dog was just plain tired . Did not want to move one more foot . Whined or protested - refused to continue walking.
Do you know how often new pup owners post about this . 
They over estimate the pups ability . An 8 week old pup .

An 8 week old pup is pretty naive . No sense of danger. 
To perceive a threat from such a distance is not usual . 

The behaviour of the coyote was not usual . I live on a property being studied as a north south corridor for coyotes . Some are so familiar I have "pet" names for them.
If anything the KIDS saved the day. The kids probably put that moment of sober thought into the coyotes mind . Not the pup. 

I have been lucky to have had some exceptional , privileged experiences .
One of them was at a small private zoo that does lots of public relations for different
wildlife charities.
I have been in the room with baby lion cubs being socialized for public and school visitation.
. Those lion cubs were matched with pups around the same age . 
They did not sense danger . They played as if they were peers. 

Naive.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't know.... the pup is probably happy to amble along for a quarter of the mile.

Stopping and refusing to move is not a fearful reaction, or anything I'd be remotely worried about in terms of temperament.

I do take my pups out when they are as young as six weeks for sniffy walks. Not in public areas, but still, they are out in the woods being pups. They love it. 

I understand where people are coming from but... uh... this is a nice story, pup alerted to a threat, but didn't go crazy or get super worried- isn't this what we want?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mountain Mom said:


> We brought Koda home yesterday, all of 8 weeks old. My daughters daughters decided to take her for a walk along their favorite waling trail (a paved path through a grassy park behind our home). They came to a place where the path goes under a bridge.
> 
> When they approached the bridge, Koda began making strange vocalizations and refused to continue walking. The girls tugged on the leash, but Koda sat down and refused to budge, continuing to vocalize. My older daughter then looked ahead and saw a coyote lurking under the bridge.
> 
> On her first day home, I am already thankful to Koda for protecting the family. Good dog, Koda!


Mountain Mom, 

Congratulations on your new puppy. We are glad you are happy with your choice. 

Please listen to Carmspac. She really knows what she is talking about. 

An eight week old puppy is a wee baby puppy. They do not have a protective bone in their body at this point. Your puppy may not have noticed the coyote at all, it may have been afraid of the bridge, and it may just have been tired. It was NOT protecting your children. Please, forget that possibility. It is similar in suggesting a 4 month old baby is emulating Mozart when it hits it's hand on piano keys. 

When puppies are afraid, they vocalize. This little guy has no idea what he should be afraid of yet. He is totally helpless. Your kids hand a narrow shave. I shutter to think what a child would go to seeing their puppy ripped up by a wild critter, or being attacked themselves, though chances are, the coyote would have grabbed the puppy. 

Now that you know that coyotes are about, well, you know what you need to do. 

Again congratulations on your new addition.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mountain Mom, please pull in the long toes and appreciate the caring info you got from experienced GSD people. They are correct in their advice. I don't understand why some of the new members get so defensive immediately. You are on the internet, it is nothing personal! Anyways, hope you'l stick around with an open mind. Enjoy your puppy.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Chip18 said:


> *Aww gezzz ... even without meaning to ... I seem to have done what I seem to do??? Ticked a newbie off??? I guess that to is an artform???*
> 
> Moving on "anyway" ... these days in North America ... pretty much everybody lives in Coyote country. I saw one once about about 30 yards away at our local 7/11. And one night on a walk, "Rocky off leash had point and I followed him. He gets underneath one of our rare widely spaced streetlights and stops cold???
> 
> ...


It's a gift, Chip. Embrace it. lol!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer said
"They do not have a protective bone in their body at this point. Your puppy may not have noticed the coyote at all, it may have been afraid of the bridge, and it may just have been tired. It was NOT protecting your children. Please, forget that possibility. It is similar in suggesting a 4 month old baby is emulating Mozart when it hits it's hand on piano keys. "

They do not have a protective bone in their body at this point . 
More than likely the dog was just tired , or it sensed a cool current coming from the shaded bridge , or it held pissy smells which were noticeable to the dog's keen sense of smell. A hundred things.

the problem is that this pup needs to be his own little developing ups and downs self . 
there may be a period where he has to be allowed to be a little hesitant or cautious . The first time he crosses paths with an approaching bouncy dog on lead , he might go all big eyed and hit the end of the lead , behind you. 

I didn't know the age of your children. In one of your very first sentences you said "My daughters daughters decided to take her for a walk along their" so I took them to be 5 to 10 years of age . Good age for the big fish stories.

All I could picture was that coyote staying in the shadowy area of the bridge , looking at that little fuzz ball pup , and puckering his lips while saying "whew , that was a close one" .

You got a nice pup. Take care.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here you go -- 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Playing with young pups inside a fence outside gives a false sense of security. Rabid and distempered raccoons can roam every neighborhood, rural or urban. Just make sure they don't lick feces or objects that could have been marked with urine.


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## Ozzieleuk (Mar 23, 2014)

Sounds like Koda has very good instincts,

Most of the time you never see a coyote unless they want you to see them. 

Those coyotes are probably visiting trash cans or the local Kentucky fried chicken dumpster. I'd let animal control know about the coyote your daughters saw. A hungry coyote is a bad thing to have around a neighborhood.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> Playing with young pups inside a fence outside gives a false sense of security. Rabid and distempered raccoons can roam every neighborhood, rural or urban. Just make sure they don't lick feces or objects that could have been marked with urine.


Rabies may be very prevalent in your neighborhood. Out in our county they find a skunk or a squirrel or a raccoon that tests positive maybe every other year. 

At some point, you have to let kids feel safe and play out doors without mom and dad helicoptering them. Once I felt the children themselves were safe around the new puppy, I probably would let them in a fenced yard with the puppy. There are dangers in the world, and some places are more dangerous than others. When I see mountain lions or bears or moose hanging around people's yards, I wonder how those people's kids manage to grow up at all.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Ah well I guess thats one poster we won't see again.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

KaiserAus said:


> Ah well I guess thats one poster we won't see again.


No lie. No surprise either. Hope she comes back though.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> Rabies may be very prevalent in your neighborhood. Out in our county they find a skunk or a squirrel or a raccoon that tests positive maybe every other year.
> 
> At some point, you have to let kids feel safe and play out doors without mom and dad helicoptering them. Once I felt the children themselves were safe around the new puppy, I probably would let them in a fenced yard with the puppy. There are dangers in the world, and some places are more dangerous than others. When I see mountain lions or bears or moose hanging around people's yards, I wonder how those people's kids manage to grow up at all.


My dad always used a shovel to encourage moose to move along :wink2: surprised he never was injured. Cougars and bears usually mind their own business. Those that became a problem were hazed or trapped/relocated.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Rabies may be very prevalent in your neighborhood. Out in our county they find a skunk or a squirrel or a raccoon that tests positive maybe every other year.
> 
> At some point, you have to let kids feel safe and play out doors without mom and dad helicoptering them. Once I felt the children themselves were safe around the new puppy, I probably would let them in a fenced yard with the puppy. There are dangers in the world, and some places are more dangerous than others. When I see mountain lions or bears or moose hanging around people's yards, I wonder how those people's kids manage to grow up at all.


I do agree with this. I only wanted to point out that people create a false sense of security by playing with a pup in the back yard only. I never lost a pup or had one get sick by taking them out in the environment at a young age after their first shot.


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## Squeaky (Nov 10, 2016)

OP didn't say the pup was being protective, OP is simply thankful that the reactions of the pup prevented the girls from going forward and from potentially being harmed/scared by the coyote. There is no right or wrong on this!! Just like in a situation, the dog kept barking in the middle of the night and woke up the family, then they found out there was a fire in the kitchen. The family of course was thankful that the dog saved their life. or we could say that the dog didn't meant to wake them up and save their lives, the dog was actually scared and screaming for his own life. Is it really necessary to argue that?

About taking the pup out for a walk without completing shots, all the potential risks, the walk is too long etc...I personally think that a few replies of other members sharing their concerns and suggestions would have been enough. When the OP already seemed not too happy, do we need to have the 4th, 5th, 6th .....member saying the same thing? or same member have post after post drilling with the same concerns.....give people some room and think and digest.....Is it possible that sometimes we have too many gsd for too long, we have better dog skills than people skills. I am sure we all want a more welcoming forum!! could we?


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## CatChandler (Jul 25, 2016)

Squeaky said:


> OP didn't say the pup was being protective


(It's the thread title.)

I'm going to assume most people here are going to care more about the welfare of the puppy than someone's personal feelings.

Imagine if someone took their 3-year-old kid to an atm and there was a robber there, and the kid stood in front of the robber and refused to move and the person said "My little man protected me!" Doesn't matter if the kid grows up to be a Navy SEAL, people are going to be (rightly) horrified.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Squeaky said:


> Is it really necessary to argue that?


*shrug* Personally I know too many people who have annoying, unruly, or downright aggressive dogs and the bad behavior is chalked up to "protectiveness" (or dominance or toughness so on and so forth).

It is important to understand why a dog is behaving the way it does so that you can guide it to behave properly. One day this pup will be a full grown GS and there won't be any room for bad behavior. 

Not saying this dog is or will be aggressive, just speaking in generalities.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

CatChandler said:


> (It's the thread title.)
> 
> I'm going to assume most people here are going to care more about the welfare of the puppy than someone's personal feelings.
> 
> Imagine if someone took their 3-year-old kid to an atm and there was a robber there, and the kid stood in front of the robber and refused to move and the person said "My little man protected me!" Doesn't matter if the kid grows up to be a Navy SEAL, people are going to be (rightly) horrified.


OP page one , first post "On her first day home, I am already thankful to Koda for protecting the family. Good dog, Koda!"

An 8 week old pup can't.

The pup needs to be understood and appreciated for what he is - a pup ,
At this time limited by his newness on this Earth, potentials to be nurtured so that in the goodness of time they can unfold.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It's not necessarily the information thats the problem. It's the delivery. Running new people off accomplishes what? More people read the forums who are not members than who are and I doubt that these type threads are helpful to getting or keeping folks. 

Anyway carry on, I'm sure she needs to be told a few more time that the puppy was tired and puppies don't protect an so forth and so on adnauseum.


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## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

Slightly off topic but I will add this. I have been on many different forums for many different things. This forum easily has the highest concentration of genuine experts and people who truly know what they are talking about than any other I have been on. I have not interacted with Carmspack and many others personally, but I try to read everything they post and try to retain all of the knowledge they choose to share here. It has made me 100x better of a GSD owner than I ever would have been without it. You can even argue that they aren't giving you advice but the correct way to do things, at least that's the way I look at it. Don't take it as personal attacks, take it as advice from people who genuinely know more about what they speak of than anyone I know knows about anything.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Who is running people off? Facts are frightening?


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Also, blunt is different than rude. Blunt facts are just that, they're not sugarcoated. But that doesn't mean they were intended as rude.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sugar coating doesn't serve anyone. My best teachers were the ones who were direct and caring at the same time. I think this is the general vibe on this forum and it has helped me many times. In return I try to do my part in a respectful way. If people still get offended, it is their problem.


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## Squeaky (Nov 10, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Who is running people off? Facts are frightening?


 Read what Jack's Dad post again PLEASE!! Facts are not frightening, it's how they are delivered. A little off topic, I think that animal behavior science is soft science, just like psychology. There is not always an absolute truth. Hope people don't sound like they have the absolute truth about gsd just because they have years of experience. 



kimbale said:


> Also, blunt is different than rude. Blunt facts are just that, they're not sugarcoated. But that doesn't mean they were intended as rude.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


 I don't even know how to differentiate the two, but when you already stated your points and another party don't seem to agree, and you continue to back up your argument repeatedly and others jump in to do the same thing. What do you call that? 

In this case, we are not talking whether it is safe to feed cooked bone to dogs, it's not black and white. Why is it so important to prove it right or wrong? The way I see this post, op was happy about the pup and wanted to share. OP was glad that because the pup sounded the alarm, the girls were safe (protected) That's the core of her post. But then the focus was shifted to talking about whether a 8 weeks old pup is capable of protecting.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Squeaky said:


> Read what Jack's Dad post again PLEASE!! Facts are not frightening, it's how they are delivered. A little off topic, I think that animal behavior science is soft science, just like psychology. ThereOP was glad that because the pup sounded the alarm, the girls were safe (protected) That's the core of her post. But then the focus was shifted to talking about whether a 8 weeks old pup is capable of protecting.


OP's third post started the negative tone. I am actually amazed at the patience of many here. Additional info was given, based on knowledge and caring about this puppy in a new family, who would only benefit from this, even when "we always had dogs".


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Bluntness is simply being straightforward. It is very different than being rude, which has a negative intent behind it.

The way I saw this thread unfold was that the OP was happy with her new pup, which is fine. But there were also things that experienced GSD handlers found concerning about the post and they pointed it out. Should they have just stayed quiet and not pointed out the dangers of young pups being exposed to disease before vaccinations? Or being careful to not overexert a young pup? Or making sure you don't place unobtainable expectations on a pup that age?

I like this forum because people are honest. Without that honesty then we just become like all those GSD Facebook groups that coddle everyone and place a higher value on harmony than on fact.

People continued to reinforce the facts that were being expressed here because the OP was resistant. 

I guess I don't know what we're supposed to do in that situation? Just stop posting? Coddle? One way or another people who join this forum will have to place some sort of positive value on honesty and informed opinion. 

I've only been here a few weeks, and a reason I've stayed is because there is informed debate and frank honesty here. Something I really appreciate.

And if people can't deal with debate and information, we'll then...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Squeaky said:


> Read what Jack's Dad post again PLEASE!! Facts are not frightening, it's how they are delivered. A little off topic, I think that animal behavior science is soft science, just like psychology. There is not always an absolute truth. Hope people don't sound like they have the absolute truth about gsd just because they have years of experience.
> 
> I don't even know how to differentiate the two, but when you already stated your points and another party don't seem to agree, and you continue to back up your argument repeatedly and others jump in to do the same thing. What do you call that?
> 
> In this case, we are not talking whether it is safe to feed cooked bone to dogs, it's not black and white. Why is it so important to prove it right or wrong? The way I see this post, op was happy about the pup and wanted to share. OP was glad that because the pup sounded the alarm, the girls were safe (protected) That's the core of her post. But then the focus was shifted to talking about whether a 8 weeks old pup is capable of protecting.


You are new here and I assume haven't followed threads for years. On the surface, to people who don't participate much or often, the posts look rude. There are a few facts you are missing, presumably because you are new. One is that threads here stay up forever. Is it responsible to let it seem like a fact that a tiny puppy can protect owners when that is not develop,entally possible? It's not just opinion, it is a fact based in study of dog behaviors and abilities. 

Second, stating a fact is stating a fact. What you and Jacks Dad are asking for is censorship. You seem to imply that if one person makes a statement, no one else should or that is rude. The problem is, most of us posting didn't read every other post, we responded to the OPs original post. So I had no idea when I posted what had already been said. On a thread with 7 pages, I'm not going to read every post before responding. I didn't have time.

When someone observes something about their own dog, they are relying on their own perceptions of one moment at one instant in time. It's not based on anything scientific. It's emotional. What you seem to be saying is to just let people have fun even when what they are saying is scientifically incorrect. If that is the case, then most people posting in this thread should just leave the forum because we are not allowing people to have fun. This forum is the biggest GSD resource on the internet. Shouldn't posts that last forever be correct or corrected when they teach something that is untrue?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the last three posts, Wolfy , Kimbale and LuvShepherd, were dead on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think sometimes it does take more than one or two people to agree that something is a bad idea. 

Once upon a time, I saw a video of a puppy playing with a balloon. Everyone thought it was cute. I mentioned the niece of a co-worker that died when the popped balloon went down her throat. 

I was roundly pounded on for making a cute video a reason to bash someone. 

Really. 

It is kind of like the laser pointer thing. People do not know that is a BAD idea for some dogs and you just don't know which ones might have a problem with it. I know trainers that don't know about laser pointers. It is insane. We think the whole world knows that is a bad idea. But they don't. 

So when someone comes on here with a laser pointer video. And one person kindly informs them that that is a really bad idea. Then it is like the balloon video -- the new person who doesn't know the person who told her that, walks away with the impression that the individual is crazy, and forgets it as nonsense. If several people agree that it is a bad thing to do with many dogs, then maybe a newbie might think there is something to it. 

I don't think we should sugar coat things, but sometimes you catch more flies with honey, so I try to start with something positive in order to begin the post with something they agree with. At the same time, I think that it is more important to say something directly, and not beat around the bush so to speak, because people need to see that it is serious, and they shouldn't be swamped with a lot unnecessary, confusing information. 

Can an 8 week old pup get parvo or lepto or distemper in areas where wild critters roam? Yes. Well then that needs to be thrown out there and it doesn't hurt for a few people to agree with it. 

Is an 8 week old puppy protecting teenagers from a coyote? No. And it does not help for all the thousands of readers who are not members that everyone talks about for them to read that we are all slapping the new poster on the back and congratulating her on picking a protective puppy. Believe me, that if you aren't the person that posted the information for which the indictment was made, you can be a lot more receptive about the content of the information. Clear is better than flowery. 

I don't think this thread was nasty. It seems like way too many people these days cannot tolerate being disagreed with in any way, shape, or form. I don't know how this has come about. I don't know how people hold down jobs. Makes me kind of glad that I grew up when the stick was employed both in schools and at home. The newer idea of harboring creativity and individuality to the nth degree, and giving participation ribbons and trophies to all, did no favors to the recipients of this experiment in child rearing.


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## Squeaky (Nov 10, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are new here and I assume haven't followed threads for years. On the surface, to people who don't participate much or often, the posts look rude. There are a few facts you are missing, presumably because you are new. One is that threads here stay up forever. Is it responsible to let it seem like a fact that a tiny puppy can protect owners when that is not develop,entally possible? It's not just opinion, it is a fact based in study of dog behaviors and abilities.
> 
> *Are you 100% sure OP was saying/implying that the pup protected the girls by showing any signs of aggression to scare off the coyote or anything along that line? See..that's the difference, I don't see that. OP was glad the girls were safe/protected because of the pup's reactions.*
> 
> ...


"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

So I guess new people are automatically supposed to know that when LuvShepherds and others post that they are experienced keepers of the breed, and of course always factual.

I'm not talking about sugar coating or getting rid of folk who don't want to listen to a strangers "facts" 

Do you all tell your neighbor whats wrong with their lives because you have" facts " that your opinion is the correct one.

It took me about six months to figureout who to listen to. There were some real experts here then. Most are gone , I wonder why. What I see now are quite a few google experts and a handful of persons that really know their stuff. 

Most of us can only share from our own experience. 

Most of the show dog people left because they were beat up on a regular basis . My dogs are working line because thats what I prefer but its not my place to beat up on their choice of dogs. With my set of "facts".


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Squeaky said:


> "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"


Maybe I'm weird, but this is not me at all. I'm much more interested in if you're knowledgeable than if you care about my feelings. I work in the corporate business sector, so maybe that's where it comes from.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Squeaky said:


> "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"


 
I think it is dangerous to think an eight week old puppy is protecting children, on the first day home.

I think posts that people see danger in, should not be taken lightly or made "fun." 

A young woman got a new puppy, and took it directly to a pet store and had it weighed on the scale there. I asked her why she was playing Russian Roulette with her puppy. I think she still probably hates me. Yes, that probably wasn't the best way to tell someone that letting a spanking new puppy run about in a store where canine traffic is heavy is a good way to get them a disease that will kill him. I didn't expect her to be offended and hurt to the extent that she was, but I did want for her to understand the seriousness of what she was doing with a vulnerable puppy.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Jack's Dad said:


> Most of the show dog people left because they were beat up on a regular basis . My dogs are working line because thats what I prefer but its not my place to beat up on their choice of dogs. With my set of "facts".














Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

"Makes me kind of glad that I grew up when the stick was employed both in schools and at home. The newer idea of harboring creativity and individuality to the nth degree, and giving participation ribbons and trophies to all, did no favors to the recipients of this experiment in child rearing. "

Meh. I've met plenty of people 40+ who can't take even the slightest amount of negative feedback, even sugarcoated. 

Some people just can't be wrong, which is unfortunate for them because it's how we grow.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> So I guess new people are automatically supposed to know that when LuvShepherds and others post that they are experienced keepers of the breed, and of course always factual.
> 
> I'm not talking about sugar coating or getting rid of folk who don't want to listen to a strangers "facts"
> 
> ...


Andy, beating up on the show-lines or the working-lines is not going to cost lives. People with brand new puppies having exaggerated expectations for them, can effect how the dog is perceived, how it is nurtured, how it is protected (or not). 

I agree that new people don't know who to trust. My first post, said "listen to Carmen, she knows..." But why should they listen to me? And here is where having more than one or two does help, because while you run the risk of making the person feel ganged up on, there is also those people who will believe what a majority are saying. 

It's a balance. We felt it was serious enough to respond frankly. And several people saying the same thing may be given more attention than one or two. Sometimes we say, "I'm a breeder..." not because we want a pat on the back, but because we hope that it gives the person some reason to at least consider what it is we are saying.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It's obvious two people are here just to fight and not add to the subject of this thread. When someone with 12 posts tells me I should not be posting because I don't have time to read every post in every thread I want to reply to, I have to laugh. If that was the case, most of us with busy lives would not be posting. Maybe that is the intent, to drive off the rest of us? Perhaps those who are criticizing don't realize posts like theirs don't help a thread, and they themselves are the ones chasing people off. 

Selzer, your balloon post is a good example of some of the lunacy that substitutes for common sense online. I don't understand why people don't want to know the truth. Or that now facts are not facts if someone disagrees.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Dotbat215 said:


> "Makes me kind of glad that I grew up when the stick was employed both in schools and at home. The newer idea of harboring creativity and individuality to the nth degree, and giving participation ribbons and trophies to all, did no favors to the recipients of this experiment in child rearing. "
> 
> Meh. I've met plenty of people 40+ who can't take even the slightest amount of negative feedback, even sugarcoated.
> 
> Some people just can't be wrong, which is unfortunate for them because it's how we grow.


Ha, ha, so true. I was raised in a time (and country) when you simply had to deal with frustration and disappointment. I was surprised when I took my Whippets coursing for the first time and the slowest dog got a price. In my home country, only the first three got a price. Nowadays everyone is a winner 
There are now schools where the teachers cannot use red ink to point out mistakes as it damages the kids' self esteem


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Squeaky said:


> "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"


Oh good one! But not sure about practicality ... although ... Slamdunc, managed it in the Over Size GSD thread or whatever the title. Give credit where. credit is due.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a joke -- only only a joke 

as said by some kids -- the coyote puckered his lips , relieved , "whew that was close"

the puppy , tired and hungry , on seeing the distant canine shape of the coyote said "are you my mommy?"

( sniff sniff I want to go home) 

oh okay I added the I want to go home.

for those out of the kid-loop for some time there is a book called Are you my Mother?
Are You My Mother? by P. D. Eastman, Philip D. Eastman |, Hardcover | Barnes & Noble®
bring back some nice memories ?

happy, JOKE -


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## Squeaky (Nov 10, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's obvious two people are here just to fight and not add to the subject of this thread. When someone with 12 posts tells me I should not be posting because I don't have time to read every post in every thread I want to reply to, I have to laugh. If that was the case, most of us with busy lives would not be posting. Maybe that is the intent, to drive off the rest of us? Perhaps those who are criticizing don't realize posts like theirs don't help a thread, and they themselves are the ones chasing people off.
> 
> Selzer, your balloon post is a good example of some of the lunacy that substitutes for common sense online. I don't understand why people don't want to know the truth. Or that now facts are not facts if someone disagrees.


When you offer a different opinion from the op, you are here to help and educate. When I have different opinion from you, I am here to fight?!! Sounds like you are always right! Who can't take criticism? Now I am fully convinced that you don't read before you post. I didn't say you SHOULD NOT reply, I just said if you are too busy to read and understand what the discussion is about, it's okay to let others reply. By the way, thanks for taking the time to "fight"


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Squeaky said:


> When you offer a different opinion from the op, you are here to help and educate. When I have different opinion from you, I am here to fight?!! Sounds like you are always right! Who can't take criticism? Now I am fully convinced that you don't read before you post. I didn't say you SHOULD NOT reply, I just said if you are too busy to read and understand what the discussion is about, it's okay to let others reply. By the way, thanks for taking the time to "fight"


Two different scenarios.

The difference in opinion to the OP was offered for educational purposes and to hopefully avoid a bad situation.

You on the other hand are lecturing people on how to interact on an Internet forum. 

One scenario is a debate of facts. The other is your arbitrary opinion. 

Calm down and accept that people have differing communication styles.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Did I misunderstand what you wrote? This was your post, maybe a typo in the second sentence? I reposted your comment below rather than quote the whole thing. My point is that why should I not reply if I have something to say? That sounds like censorship. We are talking about something the OP mentioned, then you and Jack's Dad both came in and started blasting people who had something to say. This thread isn't about US, it's about handling a puppy and keeping it safe and understanding what we are seeing. You both took it off subject and began criticizing the posters. I don't intend to keep this up, but I want to clarify. I participate in a lot of places online and I have never seen the kinds of personal attacks on members out of the blue that I see here. Maybe it is a Facebook thing, I don't use Facebook. But why is it OK to take a thread completely off subject to attack posters who are trying to educate someone who doesn't understand puppy behavior? I don't understand that, and yet I see it over and over again here. 

Your post, Squeaky:
*If you are so busy to read others posts to see what you want to say has already been mentioned. May be it's okay to just others do the reply.



*


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

kimbale said:


> Two different scenarios.
> 
> The difference in opinion to the OP was offered for educational purposes and to hopefully avoid a bad situation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for a clear and rational explanation. I was typing my reply to her when yours posted so I just saw it afterwards.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

since this has just turned into who was right or who was wrong and we have probably scared away the OP, I am now closing the thread. 

ADMIN


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