# Sticky  When to spay/neuter? 6 months? 18 months? Never?



## TankGrrl66

Sorry if this topic seems a little overdone 

The only reason I started a thread was because...I keep finding a bunch of different information!

Technically my puppy could be spayed right now. She is about 3 months old. But should I wait? Or get it done before her first heat? I do know there are health benefits to that. But how significant are they?

Is it better to wait after she is a year? Two years? I don't want to mess up her growth, or give her orthopedic issues that she would not have had. Yet if she goes into heat, I don't know how my (both neutered, but still) males will react.

Many GSD breeder health guarantees are void if the dog is S/N before 2 years. Is this because of the growth issue?

I think 6mos-1yr will be fine, but I am still concerned about her growth. :blush:


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## Cassidy's Mom

The answers to all your questions can be found on these previous threads:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/130389-verdict-spay-neuter-age.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hat-age-spay-female-what-age-neuter-male.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/91619-what-age-would-you-spay-female-gsd.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/130317-when-spay.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/144578-best-time-spay.html

When Do You Spay/Neuter or Do You Not Spay/Neuter? 
(Comes with a poll).


Should people neuter/spay their dogs?


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## TankGrrl66

Thanks!!!!!! That really helped out.

BTW...is there a way I can quick search the forums or would I have to go through each page until I found what I was looking for?


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## Cassidy's Mom

There's a google custom search box right above your original post that will search for key words on this board only. There's also a search button on the black bar above and to the right of the google search. I usually go to "advanced search" for more options so I can narrow down my search more. You can also go to a particular forum and scan through the recent threads, but sometimes I don't remember what forum I've seen something in. You can view your previous posts and the threads you've started from that same search button.


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## crisco78

We decided to wait for one heat cycle. So our pup was spayed and tacked at the same time, at 10 months.


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## wildrivers

Wondering if the partial spay allows the hormones to stay after spaying then why now spay at 6 months?? I cant see my pup allowing the diaper to stay on in the ex-pen,crated or anytime I am turned away from her. She is 4 months now. I have a huge desicion to make.


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## luke4275

*Puppy humping and neutering*

My pup will be 5 months old at the end of the month.. today, at the dog park, he humped one day many times and one other for a bit. I hate to see dogs hump and I stopped him when seen. MY question. Can a 5 month old male pup already be exhibiting sex actions? Might a neuter fix this now? I wanted to wait till 8-9 months so my pup could get some growth but humping is not something I like to see. Also, I think I need to get his hips xrayed, ( some bunny hopping) and I was told that 6 months was the right time for that. How about doing the neuter/hip x-ray at 6 months? or wait a while more? thanks


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## msvette2u

Humping is just a normal dog behavior. One of our worst humpers is a girl. She humps her brother all the time.
That said, neuter when you and your vet decide, because you'll get 50 different responses here


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## MaggieRoseLee

Great poll going on for the forum...


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-you-spay-neuter-do-you-not-spay-neuter.html


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## luke4275

*time to neuter*

I sent my pup , who will be 5.5 months old in a few days, to a trainer bec I wanted some help with whining, jumping. digging,chasing the cat, etc.. I know perhaps I should train at home and the trainer said that after 4 days at her ranch. she believes my pup will train better at home.,so this is the plan. My question. today the trainer told me that my pup attacked her 15 month old spayed girl. They had been best friends when he arrived on Friday and this morning, when he was taken off leash. he ran to her ,pinned her down and punctured her neck. One of her other service dogs stopped it all. The trainer seems to think it was aggression and hormones, as the pup had his body in a humping position. I forgot exactly how she described it. I was planning on waiting till 6 months to neuter so I can get a good xray of his hips. the trainer thinks I should neuter now. I find her report shocking as my pup is usually quite docile and will be leary of some dogs, though he will play quite well with other pups but never is he the tough player in the pair. and I have never seen any aggression whatsoever.. any thoughts assuming her reporting is correct? She does no negative training ., besides verbal OFF and light tugs when whining, etc. only verbal AND lots of praise.. no treats,. so I don't think her training had any effect on my pup's behavior My guy has done very nice sits and downs, and stays, though he still whines but I do think the trainer has a brain. help...


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## Flynn & Abby's Mom

I'd be concerned if the situation that happened was out of character for your dog, I would be wondering what factors could have caused him to react that way.


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## luke4275

*reply*

Having not been there, I cannot tell you what happened.. I found the trainers story shocking and beyond belief, though who knows.. she has no reason to make this tale up???


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## Flynn & Abby's Mom

Well, being that you weren't there you can only go off what she has told you, that definitely makes it difficult. If that seems out of character for him, I would think there had to have been some variable that contributed to the action. Did the trainer say if there was anything different about what was going on that led up to this?


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## Sherryn0909

You can read about it here, i think it's really helpful:
Spaying or Neutering Your Dog FAQ


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## Emoore

Sherryn0909 said:


> You can read about it here, i think it's really helpful:
> Spaying or Neutering Your Dog FAQ


No offense, but it's also really biased. 

Take this for example:

"Shelter euthanasia is the number one killer of companion animals. Spaying and neutering is the only way to reduce or eliminate that."

Well, no. . . spaying and neutering is one way. Another way is to supervise your dog so it doesn't get pregnant or get another dog pregnant. Another way is to educate people so they view pets as a part of the family and don't obtain and dispose of them so easily. 

"There are still some people who say pediatric spay/neuter is dangerous, but that’s not true. It has become much more widely accepted. "

--The subject of pediatric spay/neuter is far from a settled issue. It's hotly debated. 

"In males, it eliminates testicular cancers or diseases and can lower the risk of prostate cancer. "

--Actually, some studies show that neuter increases the chance of prostate cancer. It's also has been shown in some studies to increase the risk of osteosarcoma.


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## AmberGS1Exit

The bottom line is if you plan to have a litter with your German Shepherd pay attention as they grow up. If there is anything that is questionable spay/neuter them asap. You are making sure other dogs like them don’t generate out there to be thrown out or surrendered. A personal experience with your GS is a priceless one, keep it as that. Yes they do live a long healthier life if spayed or neutered. It downgrades the stress level esp. males.


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## Draugr

Emoore said:


> "There are still some people who say pediatric spay/neuter is dangerous, but that’s not true. It has become much more widely accepted. "
> 
> --The subject of pediatric spay/neuter is far from a settled issue. It's hotly debated.


It's actually - at least just based on my own casual observations - becoming _less_ accepted. But, yeah, very hotly contested.


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## stoli2003

I have decided for the most part to leave Zore "intact" He just turned five months this week, did some research and read alot of threads on the subject We consider our selves to be very good dog parents, training is going just fine, spend time on training almost everyday when I'm not traveling. Our yard is totally fenced in, chances are slim he will ever get out to roam and create unwanted puppies in the world. Our others never did ( this is our first boy) so we are going to see how he grows up for a while.


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## blackshep

I just booked my apt for spaying my girl. 

I trust my vet completely. She advised me to do it around 5 or 6 months, so she'll be almost 6 months when I'm getting it done.

If she were a male, I'd wait longer, probably at least a year, but my vet told me for females it's a much easier recovery while they are young and their stomach muscles aren't as 'tough', and also you basically eliminate the risk of mammary cancer. She said the younger dogs generally heal faster.

It's not an easy decision, that's for sure and one that's hotly contested.


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## msvette2u

black, I also feel that is best, for my own girls as well as fosters here.
I check our girls who were left intact longer (and we adopted later in life) almost monthly for lumps in their breasts


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## MaggieRoseLee

Another new study about early neutering affecting dog health

Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information



> February 13, 2013
> 
> While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.
> Dog owners in the United States are overwhelmingly choosing to neuter their dogs, in large part to prevent pet overpopulation or avoid unwanted behaviors. In the U.S., surgical neutering — known as spaying in females — is usually done when the dog is less than one year old.
> In Europe, however, neutering is generally avoided by owners and trainers and not promoted by animal health authorities, Hart said.
> During the past decade, some studies have indicated that neutering can have several adverse health effects for certain dog breeds. Those studies examined individual diseases using data drawn from one breed or pooled from several breeds.
> 
> ........
> The research team reviewed the records of female and male golden retrievers, ranging in age from 1 to 8 years, that had been examined at UC Davis’ William R. Pritchard Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital for two joint disorders and three cancers: hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were classified as intact (not neutered), neutered early (before 12 months age), or neutered late (at or after 12 months age).
> Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.
> The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.


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## msvette2u

Surprising Health Benefits of Spaying and Neutering | Stafford Animal Shelter

This is something rarely mentioned in intact animals and yet almost every male we've met past 5-6 yrs. that's still intact has symptoms of this.

*Perineal Herniation. Intact male dogs can develop weakened muscle walls in their rectums that allow stool to store up in pouches. They initially strain to defecate but as time goes on, will develop infections and become progressively unable to defecate normally. These herniations are only seen in intact males, and are preventable with neutering.*

(more at the link above)


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## Shaolin

This might make me an unpopular person here, but I feel that, if you can be a responsible person, there's no hurry to speuter, IMHO. There are some possible health benefits for a late speuter, but the same can be said about an early one. I've had both male and female dogs, only one male was altered, one female was altered. The male was a late neuter ( >7 months) the female was very early ( < 6 months). Neither one of them had any of the recorded issues with a late/early speuter.

The males who weren't altered, we were/are just careful; my neighbor has an unaltered female, so Finn doesn't go outside w/o a lead when she's outside and if we are out and about, the minute he starts drooling, he gets loaded back into the car and we leave, easy as that.

It's all about if you can handle the responsibility of having an unaltered animal. I think Vets, because they see the worst of what can happen, have the rally cry of "Speuter for all!", and that's perfectly okay. We are already researching diapers and boarding for when we bring our next dog home because we want to do a late spay ( > 12 months) so she can get all the horomones and what not. That's being responsible, not like our neighbor who has already had 3 oops litters, but still refuses to spay...

Do what you think is best; if you think a pediatric speuter is good for your pup, go for it. If you want to do an adult speuter, be responsible, but go for it.


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## N Smith

I personally will never spay or neuter any of my dogs unless medically required.

However, I commend those who know they aren't willing to deal with heats and can't guarantee an unwanted pregnancy won't occur, so they choose to do so.


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## mackjordann

My breeder told me that it does not matter if you s/n young because the dog will grow to the size they are suppose to be from their genes. This is the first time I've ever heard this. But I got my puppy neuter at 5 months. If I had a girl dog I'd definitely get her spayed before her first heat. I mean I wouldnt want to deal with that mess. But that's just how I feel about.

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## LauraJav

Just scheduled Max's neuter appt for end of the month. My poor boy.


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## My5dogs

I always waited for males when they are well over a year closer to 2. My females were done sooner but not at 5 months like my vet wanted.


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## BryanC

I've had 3 german shepherds, none of them neutered or spayed. Guess it's a personal choice. 

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## BryanC

N Smith said:


> I personally will never spay or neuter any of my dogs unless medically required.
> 
> However, I commend those who know they aren't willing to deal with heats and can't guarantee an unwanted pregnancy won't occur, so they choose to do so.


Agree! 

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## Diesel7602

My vet said that my boy is good to go at 10 weeks. Idk? I know I do want it done, since he is a service dog for my son with autism, but still thinking 10 weeks is young. I'll just have to talk to my vet more on his next shot apt. 

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## gsdsar

Diesel7602 said:


> My vet said that my boy is good to go at 10 weeks. Idk? I know I do want it done, since he is a service dog for my son with autism, but still thinking 10 weeks is young. I'll just have to talk to my vet more on his next shot apt.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I rarely go against vet advice. But this is very bad advice. Yes, technically they CAN do it now. But it is not in your pups best interest. If you plan on your dog being a service animal, than you want to give them every orthopedic advantage. I would wait until at least 6 months. 1 year is better. 2 years best. Not a baby. 

Hormones have a purpose. An important one. 


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## Jakesworld

I've neutered my males at 6 months ( I wasn't going to breed them) in the past. But I've become older and wiser since then. New research is showing the health risks from neutering before 2 or 3 years . Both mental and physical. Thyroid problems, and now they are linking early neuter to HD. They need hormones to develop proper growth in bones and body, not to mention mentally maturity. This is just my opinion. But I've been researching it, since I have an 8 month old male. I think you should too if your not sure. And don't do it just because your vet says you should. But, you have to be a responsible dog owner if you have an intact male of course. Here's an analogy I like to use: what happens to a 13 year old boy if you castrate him? How well would he develop physically and mentally?


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## Diesel7602

I think when my boy starts lifting his leg, I'll get him neutered. I'm kinda worry since I just found out my pups dad was just put down. The vet said it was do to peritoneal hernias. They said dogs that are neutered almost never have it. So they said it was due to not being neutered. 

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## AJmom

I decided to not have my male neutered. Saxon is 4 month old now and our vet was telling us he should be neutered now. I think not! He has a lot of growing to do and we always had intact males and no health or behavior problems. And since they are not allowed to roam the neighborhood they never got together with any female. There are too many health problems associated with neutering and especially neutering too early. Another thing I hate is when people have their dogs neutered because of behavior problems. Neutering does not teach your dog to magically behave.


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## andrea04

Our girl was 5 months last week and I dropped her off this morning to be spayed. I have no intentions of breeding her and also due to reoccurring UTI's the vet has a chance to look at her bladder to make sure everything looks normal. Everyone has to do what's best for their dog but if I had a male I wouldn't alter him for at least 1 year.


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## LoveEcho

Most vets recommend early speuter because the majority of owners they see are completely incapable of proper management until a healthier age. They'll freely say it's not for health reasons.


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## Sharon88

Hi,
My Gigi is 4 months and the tech asked me if I am going to have her spayed. No one seems to have the magic answer about the benefits and detriments and the timing for females. I have had males in the past and they were intact. Does anyone have a female who is not spayed?


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## mego

Sharon88 said:


> Hi,
> My Gigi is 4 months and the tech asked me if I am going to have her spayed. No one seems to have the magic answer about the benefits and detriments and the timing for females. I have had males in the past and they were intact. Does anyone have a female who is not spayed?


I have an unspayed female. She's a little over a year and a half and I probably won't spay her


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## my boy diesel

the risks for pyo and breast cancer are horrible
and yeah yeah there are statistics but just last week someone came on saying their 6 yr old (i think fairly young anyway) had just been diagnosed with breast cancer that has already spread to other organs

i am sorry the dog was 8
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/preparing-say-good-bye/471074-mammary-cancer.html

still fairly young 
too young for this


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## Diesel7602

my boy diesel said:


> the risks for pyo and breast cancer are horrible
> and yeah yeah there are statistics but just last week someone came on saying their 6 yr old (i think fairly young anyway) had just been diagnosed with breast cancer that has already spread to other organs
> 
> i am sorry the dog was 8
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/preparing-say-good-bye/471074-mammary-cancer.html
> 
> still fairly young
> too young for this


So...do they get this if not spayed? Poor dog. I would be so sad if I went threw this. 

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## Diesel7602

Update on perseus. I got him neutered at 4 1/2 months. He is still growing like a weed. 5 months and 70 pounds, 25 inch .So, I'm guessing the stunt their growth saying didn't apply to my pup. 

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## Galathiel

More like the growth plates may not close at the proper time and they can get tall and lanky, etc., which DID happen to some of my previous GSDs that were neutered at 6 months.


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## Tattersail

Diesel7602 said:


> Update on perseus. I got him neutered at 4 1/2 months. He is still growing like a weed. 5 months and 70 pounds, 25 inch .So, I'm guessing the stunt their growth saying didn't apply to my pup.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's not so much that it stunts their growth as much as they won't fill out as much as they mature. He's not as likely to get the muscular body and broad full chest that an intact or late neuter dog would get.


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## my boy diesel

> 5 months and 70 pounds, 25 inch


25 inchese and 70 lbs does not sound lanky to me :shrug:


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## Tattersail

my boy diesel said:


> 25 inchese and 70 lbs does not sound lanky to me :shrug:


He;s also very much a puppy at 5 months and has multiple growing periods ahead of him before he evens out


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## Tattersail

Also here;s an interesting article- Long Term Health Effects of Neutering: Comparing Labs and Goldens.

PLOS ONE: Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers


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## Ace GSD

andrea04 said:


> Our girl was 5 months last week and I dropped her off this morning to be spayed. I have no intentions of breeding her and also due to reoccurring UTI's the vet has a chance to look at her bladder to make sure everything looks normal. Everyone has to do what's best for their dog but if I had a male I wouldn't alter him for at least 1 year.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Definitly for the dog's best  cause dogs are naturally better spayed or neuter.....their parents do this themself in the wild


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## my boy diesel

there are billions of health studies out there and many to basically refute each other
what matters most is that most of the population should alter their pets because of behavior and other issues such as containment that go along with having an intact animal
it has already been established that the few people on here responsible enough to have intact pets are not representative of the population as a whole


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## Diesel7602

Tattersail said:


> It's not so much that it stunts their growth as much as they won't fill out as much as they mature. He's not as likely to get the muscular body and broad full chest that an intact or late neuter dog would get.


Luckily my boy already has a thick chest . 

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## Diesel7602

Tattersail said:


> He;s also very much a puppy at 5 months and has multiple growing periods ahead of him before he evens out


This is one thing I knew about. I'm not too worry though. My dog is almost the size of full grown gsd right now. But if he does end up lanky, I'm fine with that. I'll just fatten him up to compensate. =) 

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## my boy diesel

a lot of the physique is hereditary as much as hormonal


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> a lot of the physique is hereditary as much as hormonal


I disagree. You can tell when a dog has been neutered young. At least, I can.


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## Diesel7602

my boy diesel said:


> a lot of the physique is hereditary as much as hormonal


I agree. You figure, at what point does the dog grow the most?. Birth tell about 4-5 monthish. At which the hormones have not kicked in. At this point they grow alot but no hormones in play. If a dog needs hormones to grow then these dogs would be pint size tell they hit the hormonal state. I think genes play a big role. I think hormones can help the dog grow but it's not the only factor. I got my boy done before he got the hormone. He was 59 pounds. A few weeks later "still no hormones" he's now at 70 pounds. 
I guess some dogs are meant to be smaller in size but some might blame it on neutering early. You really wouldn't know unless you took 2 of the exact same dog neuter one early and the other one not at all, And see how they turn out. It could be true that they could be a bit taller because the growth plates take longer to heal. But wouldnt it be that the dog is bigger? , not a stunt in grow? because the dog is taller not shorter. 

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## selzer

A dog that is neutered before the growth plates close will cause the growth plates to remain open longer, and the long bones will grow longer than they would have if nature could have run its course without interference.

Yes, an early neuter can be taller, leggier, and without some of the typical male characteristics. 

What is individual to the dog is the rate of growth. Some mature later, and some mature earlier. Some reach their full height by 10-12 months old. And some take much longer. Rapid growth of a puppy is something that is more of a reason for anxiety than pride though. There are problems that tend to be more prevalent in puppies that grew very quickly.


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## lorihd

my dog just turned 3, I have an apt next month to spay her.


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## guddu

I have not read, all the previous pages on this thread...but never neuter (unless you are extremely careless person, who leaves the dog loose amongst other dogs in neighborhood). This whole thing is a scam, perpetrated by vet$, and other misguided individuals. Neutering is unnatural, there is no medical benefit to it, especially true if you are the kind of person who has spent big bucks on a purebred GSD.

The dogs that end up in shelters, should be neutered...otherwise, I dont see a need.


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## selzer

guddu said:


> I have not read, all the previous pages on this thread...but never neuter (unless you are extremely careless person, who leaves the dog loose amongst other dogs in neighborhood). This whole thing is a scam, perpetrated by vet$, and other misguided individuals. Neutering is unnatural, there is no medical benefit to it, especially true if you are the kind of person who has spent big bucks on a purebred GSD.
> 
> The dogs that end up in shelters, should be neutered...otherwise, I dont see a need.


Hang around and your brain will be sucked out, too. Group Think! Group Think!!! After a few thousand posts, you too will subscribe to the attitude. Or, you will be shunned and left to live on the fringes of GermanShepherds.com -- thrown a bone here and there to keep you coming back, but not really a part of it all.


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## my boy diesel

> there is no medical benefit to it,


well actually there is if you did some research
being completely anti s/n is as bad as being completely for it
there is always another side to every story
usually more than one!


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## Diesel7602

guddu said:


> I have not read, all the previous pages on this thread...but never neuter (unless you are extremely careless person, who leaves the dog loose amongst other dogs in neighborhood). This whole thing is a scam, perpetrated by vet$, and other misguided individuals. Neutering is unnatural, there is no medical benefit to it, especially true if you are the kind of person who has spent big bucks on a purebred GSD.
> 
> The dogs that end up in shelters, should be neutered...otherwise, I dont see a need.


Unnatural? Shoot, I guess being fixed my self is unnatural.. it's not all about not having puppies. There is a lot other factors.

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## llombardo

my boy diesel said:


> a lot of the physique is hereditary as much as hormonal


I agree.


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## odins_raven

Never!

We are probably going to stud him out when he is older. God gave him those parts for a reason! I honestly think it depends on the situation though, all my previous dogs were mutts and we had them fixed as there was no desire to breed them or deal with the consequences of them getting nocked up.


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## llombardo

odins_raven said:


> Never!
> 
> We are probably going to stud him out when he is older. God gave him those parts for a reason! I honestly think it depends on the situation though, all my previous dogs were mutts and we had them fixed as there was no desire to breed them or deal with the consequences of them getting nocked up.


Well your mutts also had the parts for a reason and because you didn't want to deal with it, then that was okay? It either is or isn't ok, no matter what the breed.


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## misslesleedavis1

My next one will not be neutured. We got dex done at 2 years old.

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## odins_raven

Well, the dogs were technically my parents so the choice was not mine, just guessing at why they had it done (their first dog they didn't and he got out and nocked up another dog). If the choice was mine, i would probably not do it unless a situation presented itself where it was necessary (cancer, injury, etc.). Can't see any benefit to it right now, especially since we want to possibly breed him when older.


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## my boy diesel

so what has your dog done to make him breedworthy?

keeping in mind this is one of the major reasons pet owners should alter their pets


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## llombardo

misslesleedavis1 said:


> My next one will not be neutured. We got dex done at 2 years old.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why?


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim is not neutered yet. We wanted to give his bones a chance to grow, and we want to let him fill out. Sometime soon though.


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## Ace GSD

my boy diesel said:


> so what has your dog done to make him breedworthy?
> 
> keeping in mind this is one of the major reasons pet owners should alter their pets


I must say i agree... if everybody think the same imagine how many puppies are born everyday.


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## Diesel7602

Ace GSD said:


> I must say i agree... if everybody think the same imagine how many puppies are born everyday.


money. I think that's why most do it. 

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## martemchik

odins_raven said:


> Well, the dogs were technically my parents so the choice was not mine, just guessing at why they had it done (their first dog they didn't and he got out and nocked up another dog). If the choice was mine, i would probably not do it unless a situation presented itself where it was necessary (cancer, injury, etc.). Can't see any benefit to it right now, especially since we want to possibly breed him when older.


Basically...you've admitted the main reason people keep purebred dogs intact. They're purebred, one day it could be bred and it won't be as large of a faux pas as when a mutt reproduces. The owner will then get a puppy "for free" and the world isn't that much worse off because...who wouldn't want a purebred GSD puppy?

I'm not judging you. I've said it plenty of times that I'd have a hard time saying no to someone if they asked me to stud my dog. I always use that as a reason why this forum can't keep telling people to keep their dogs intact when they have ZERO idea who they're talking to. People say they'll neuter at 2. Well, dog gets to 2, doesn't have any issues...they decide to not neuter. Then someone comes to them, offers a pup or even a little bit of cash...why not?

You didn't say if you were doing anything with your dog to prove the "breedworthiness" but I'll assume at this point you probably aren't because you would've used that as a reason why not to neuter. So basically, you're in that camp, if it turns out to be a good pet...at one point, it might make some good pet puppies.


----------



## llombardo

martemchik said:


> Basically...you've admitted the main reason people keep purebred dogs intact. They're purebred, one day it could be bred and it won't be as large of a faux pas as when a mutt reproduces. The owner will then get a puppy "for free" and the world isn't that much worse off because...who wouldn't want a purebred GSD puppy?
> 
> I'm not judging you. I've said it plenty of times that I'd have a hard time saying no to someone if they asked me to stud my dog. I always use that as a reason why this forum can't keep telling people to keep their dogs intact when they have ZERO idea who they're talking to. People say they'll neuter at 2. Well, dog gets to 2, doesn't have any issues...they decide to not neuter. Then someone comes to them, offers a pup or even a little bit of cash...why not?
> 
> You didn't say if you were doing anything with your dog to prove the "breedworthiness" but I'll assume at this point you probably aren't because you would've used that as a reason why not to neuter. So basically, you're in that camp, if it turns out to be a good pet...at one point, it might make some good pet puppies.


Exactly what I was getting at


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## selzer

Martemchik, do the ends justify the means though? Altering a dog before it is fully mature either benefits the dog in front of you, or it does not benefit it. It either makes a difference positive or negative, or it does not. It is not dependent on your future breeding plans. 

If I feel keeping dogs intact is more healthy for the dogs, then that is true for me, and true for every individual regardless of their level of responsibility. 

If, for an extreme example, 50% of dogs altered prior to 1 year will die from some nauseating form of cancer by the age of six. Would any of us alter a dog or encourage anyone to alter a dog, even people who probably shouldn't even own a dog? My guess is no. 

It is all a percentages game. A percentage of bitches will get mammary cancer later in life (8-12 years) if they aren't neutered by the first or second heat cycle. But a larger percentage of bitches neutered that early will succumb to osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma, and that earlier, maybe as early as 4 years. A percentage of people who keep their dog intact will be irresponsible with the dog and sire a litter that they are not willing to say they did on purpose. And a percentage will be talked into breeding their dog. A percentage intend to breed their dog from the get-go. 

And yes, if the dog has no issues at 2 years, why neuter it at that point? I see zero health benefits in neutering a dog. I think spaying a bitch can have health and management benefits, but there are risks involved with it, that may or may not make sense in going forward with it. 

But if think it is more healthy for my dogs, then I think it is more healthy for all dogs regardless of who owns them. And thus, it comes down to whether the ultimate prevention of reproduction is more important than a dog's health and well being. On the other hand, if you think that altering the dog does not affect the health negatively, then go forth and encourage everyone to neuter. 

But if you don't alter because you think it's healthier, how can you encourage others to do so? That is where I am. I do not encourage people not to alter their animals, though I may encourage them to wait. But, I do not encourage people to alter. And if people ask me, I tell them what I feel about it, and do not do so to one audience different than another.


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## my boy diesel

in the scheme of things feeding a poor quality diet is going to harm them more than neuter at 6 or 8 months
there are tons and tons of worse things an owner can do to the dog
and it goes back to the same exact thing
your average owner needs to alter their dog prior to sexual maturity


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## lalachka

Yeah even though I know most people should neuter I cringe when I see a neutered dog. I can't help it. I feel really bad for them


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## martemchik

Selzer...all of your statistics are false. Sorry, but read some of the actual research that has been done about these things. NONE of it is statistically acceptable by anyone that even knows basic college level statistics. There is NEVER a control group, and really, all those statistics are showing is a CORRELATION not a CAUSATION.

I know you love your numbers, you always throw them out on this forum. But I'm tired of looking at them. They're a lie. They don't say IF you do this, THEN this will happen.

You are 100% encouraging people not to neuter/spay when all you do is post NEGATIVE false statistics. When someone tells you..."data shows that if you do this, your dog has a 10% higher chance of dying at some point from some random disease" what are you going to do?

So until you learn how to properly cite your statistics with actual data, or the actual research that went behind it. Stop scaring people into thinking that a spueter will cause their animal to die from heat stroke at the age of 5.


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## Diesel7602

lalachka said:


> Yeah even though I know most people should neuter I cringe when I see a neutered dog. I can't help it. I feel really bad for them


There is a cure for that. Stop looking at dogs jewels. haha Sorry had to, your post made me giggle. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> Martemchik, do the ends justify the means though? Altering a dog before it is fully mature either benefits the dog in front of you, or it does not benefit it. It either makes a difference positive or negative, or it does not. It is not dependent on your future breeding plans.


And to focus on this statement. 99% of people don't have ANY idea that its healthier for the dog to be intact. 99% of dog owners that keep their dogs intact, do it because of some sort of future breeding plans. If they tell you otherwise, they're lying. Most people do not do any kind of research about the subject, and they just know they bought a dog for $XXXX.XX which is enough for that dog to be awesome and probably deserve to be bred. Oh...and on top of that $500 a puppy sounds great to most people. This is how BYBs are created. And the excuse is usually "oh its just one litter" until its two, then its three, then its four. 

For someone that claims to be so connected to the dog world, you really turn a blind eye to what actually happens with dogs. Sure...we all deal primarily with very responsible owners, who keep animals intact and don't breed them. But we don't deal with the other 99%...its evident by how much hatred there is for dog parks on this forum. People have no idea how the "average dog owner" thinks...the one that already knows everything there is about dog ownership and the last thing they need is an online forum.


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> in the scheme of things feeding a poor quality diet is going to harm them more than neuter at 6 or 8 months
> there are tons and tons of worse things an owner can do to the dog
> and it goes back to the same exact thing
> your average owner needs to alter their dog prior to sexual maturity


I think removing the glands that produce the hormones before sexual maturity can do more damage than feeding them a less than stellar diet. Afterall, lots of dogs do best on middle-of-the-road foods and not the high end stuff. 

You would not tell someone "My dog should be fed RAW or grain-free but Your dog should be fed Purina Dog Chow." It's kind of the same thing, really. 

I would rather see more dogs left intact at least until they are full grown, and see a slight increase in puppies and fewer dogs passing from nasty cancers at a relative young age, fewer immune system problems etc. 

What happens with that slight increase. The same buyers that would go to your typical BYBs are getting puppies free from someone in the neighborhood, or paying a similar price that they would be from your local BYB, and the people out their deliberately breeding puppies have a tougher time selling their puppies. Whoo hoo, that will make everyone cringe a bit really. 

Most pet people go through a heat cycle and call the vet and schedule the spay. If 98% of the dogs are snipped, it won't make a difference, because the 2% of dogs that aren't snipped can accomplish what the whole 100 would have. It is the number of intact females, bitches, that determines the number of puppies that are produced. And most pet people do not want to deal with the heats. If they let their bitch go through 1 and then 2, the percentage of those that allow their bitch to get pregnant, aren't going to skew the numbers terribly. And it will only effect the supply and demand of BYB level dogs. Will shelter populations go up? Maybe a little. Maybe some of those people will realize that this is too much of a hassle and dump the bitch and pups. But I don't see it as being much of a difference. The people who are breeding deliberately, who have a tougher time selling their puppies will reign it back a little and things will even out.

I just don't think the ends justify the means. 

Fewer oops/BYB- let the bitch have one litter, etc, just means more puppies will be supplied by the commercial breeders and puppy mills, and more puppies will be imported from outside of the country (by shelters) to fill the demand for puppies.


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## llombardo

martemchik said:


> Selzer...all of your statistics are false. Sorry, but read some of the actual research that has been done about these things. NONE of it is statistically acceptable by anyone that even knows basic college level statistics. There is NEVER a control group, and really, all those statistics are showing is a CORRELATION not a CAUSATION.
> 
> I know you love your numbers, you always throw them out on this forum. But I'm tired of looking at them. They're a lie. They don't say IF you do this, THEN this will happen.
> 
> You are 100% encouraging people not to neuter/spay when all you do is post NEGATIVE false statistics. When someone tells you..."data shows that if you do this, your dog has a 10% higher chance of dying at some point from some random disease" what are you going to do?
> 
> So until you learn how to properly cite your statistics with actual data, or the actual research that went behind it. Stop scaring people into thinking that a spueter will cause their animal to die from heat stroke at the age of 5.


I agree. We have owned over 50 dogs in my family, all but one spayed or neutered before the age of one (closer to 6 months). All dogs developed normally and lived to ages that were appropriate or beyond. You would think statistically that a couple of those dogs would have been part of the statistics with growth issues or medical issues? Vaccines, exercise and diet play a bigger role IMO. If they would just give up the cure for cancer, all arguments would be worth nothing. Even when I worked at the vet I can't remember a single medical issue with dogs that were fixed(no matter the age), but there were plenty if medical issues for those that weren't(mostly female) I don't really rely on statistics, I go by what I have witnessed first hand and experienced. And then there are genetics, which can also play a role in some medical issues.


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## martemchik

lalachka said:


> Yeah even though I know most people should neuter I cringe when I see a neutered dog. I can't help it. I feel really bad for them


Why would you feel bad for them? Why does it affect you? I'm actually happy for that owner and that dog. It means they can do A LOT more with their dog, keep their dog a lot happier and more engaged, than if it were intact. They go to parks, dog parks, the dog can interact with a lot more dogs without any issues. The dog is capable of doing a lot more things that your average owner thinks is fun to do with a dog than if it were intact...sure, its humanizing the dog (which most of us don't understand or agree with)...but that's the world today. People love seeing their dogs romp around with other dogs and enjoy themselves without the owner having to do anything.

Trying to change society to understand what many of us understand about dogs...is a more uphill fight than getting most people to speuter and not breed.

Just this weekend my club has a K9 fun fest...my helper from IPO came to support us there. You should've seen how confused he was about these dogs just chilling, being dogs, interacting, sniffing, saying hello to one another. Running a lure course...and not getting rewarded for it with a bite. It was hilarious to watch him. I know most of us aren't on that level...he's pretty extreme...but I laugh when some of us can't grasp the concept of "average pet ownership."


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## glowingtoadfly

B. went to fun fest and became kerflummoxed by pet dog culture? I can see that happening.


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> Why would you feel bad for them? Why does it affect you? I'm actually happy for that owner and that dog. It means they can do A LOT more with their dog, keep their dog a lot happier and more engaged, than if it were intact. They go to parks, dog parks, the dog can interact with a lot more dogs without any issues. The dog is capable of doing a lot more things that your average owner thinks is fun to do with a dog than if it were intact...sure, its humanizing the dog (which most of us don't understand or agree with)...but that's the world today. People love seeing their dogs romp around with other dogs and enjoy themselves without the owner having to do anything.
> 
> Trying to change society to understand what many of us understand about dogs...is a more uphill fight than getting most people to speuter and not breed.
> 
> Just this weekend my club has a K9 fun fest...my helper from IPO came to support us there. You should've seen how confused he was about these dogs just chilling, being dogs, interacting, sniffing, saying hello to one another. Running a lure course...and not getting rewarded for it with a bite. It was hilarious to watch him. I know most of us aren't on that level...he's pretty extreme...but I laugh when some of us can't grasp the concept of "average pet ownership."


LOL! It's funny because most of the dogs at AKC shows are perfectly fine with other dogs, and intact. 

Just because a dog is neutered, doesn't mean they can be taken to the dog park and romp and play with other dogs. Sorry. And just because a dog is intact, does not mean that it can't -- unless there is a foolish rule. If you want your dog to romp and play with strange dogs, then you are going to need to condition it for that, if it isn't the wrong dog for that sort of thing. Neutering won't make the wrong dog right for that sort of thing. 

And intact bitches can be a little easier at dog-dog stuff. I take my dogs to a friend's home in PA, whose dog is intact, mine are intact, and after a short introduction, they can all run together -- no problem. 

I just don't get all the misinformation by the pro-alter crowd.


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> I think removing the glands that produce the hormones before sexual maturity can do more damage than feeding them a less than stellar diet. Afterall, lots of dogs do best on middle-of-the-road foods and not the high end stuff.
> 
> I would rather see more dogs left intact at least until they are full grown, and see a slight increase in puppies and fewer dogs passing from nasty cancers at a relative young age, fewer immune system problems etc.


Do you actually SEE dogs that are speutered dying that much more at a young age than those that are left intact? Just where are you getting this research? And WHY is it that you're blaming the surgery rather than one of the other environmental causes? Or why don't you blame the genetics? Why is all the focus on the speutering?


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> LOL! It's funny because most of the dogs at AKC shows are perfectly fine with other dogs, and intact.


And the last time you were at an AKC show was?!?!? Did you see the dogs interacting? Running around, off leash? With the owners sitting around on a bench hundreds of yards away? Sorry...didn't realize that an AKC show was a direct representation of the average pet owner. Or wait...all those RN and CGC titles behind your dog's names...all must've been done off leash right? Yup...AKC show...perfect representation of average pet ownership.

When was the last time anyone really allowed their dogs to "be dogs" at an AKC show?

And I've SEEN plenty of handlers train their dogs to not have issues with other dogs. Since at a conformation show...a growl is a huge issue...and trust me, the majority of intact males I've trained around for conformation, don't like the one running in front of them...luckily there's always a leash there to stop them from acting on their natural instinct. Can't even count the times I've seen a handler cover their dog's eyes because it was focusing too much on another dog.

Same with AKC obedience shows...are you saying that the level of obedience you see from dogs entering those shows is what the "average pet owner" achieves with their dog? Really?

You are just earning an A+ in how to take something out of context, and bring in random data to try to disprove it.


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> Do you actually SEE dogs that are speutered dying that much more at a young age than those that are left intact? Just where are you getting this research? And WHY is it that you're blaming the surgery rather than one of the other environmental causes? Or why don't you blame the genetics? Why is all the focus on the speutering?


Actually I have seen some dogs who were neutered very young die young 6 and 7 years of prostate cancer and another cancer that may or may not have statistics to early spay/neuter linked to it. And I have read the research. And, I am betting that veterinarians all over the place are not considering the time a dog was neutered when the dog dies of whatever when they are under the going average for the breed. And average that went from 12-14 years to 10-12 years since spay/neuter and early spay/neuter has become so popular. 

I have seen dogs who have been altered young grow differently. I think it is more healthy. If it is more healthy for my dogs than it is more healthy for dogs in general. And I can't say, MY dogs should be left intact, but YOUR dogs should be altered.


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## DobbyDad

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Great poll going on for the forum...
> 
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-you-spay-neuter-do-you-not-spay-neuter.html


I find it humorous after looking at this poll that the lowest percentile seem to be the one on this topic with the most posts and it seems to be the same 3 or 4 people over and over while other people post their opinion then move on.


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> Actually I have seen some dogs who were neutered very young die young 6 and 7 years of prostate cancer and another cancer that may or may not have statistics to early spay/neuter linked to it. And I have read the research. And, I am betting that veterinarians all over the place are not considering the time a dog was neutered when the dog dies of whatever when they are under the going average for the breed. And average that went from 12-14 years to 10-12 years since spay/neuter and early spay/neuter has become so popular.
> 
> I have seen dogs who have been altered young grow differently. I think it is more healthy. If it is more healthy for my dogs than it is more healthy for dogs in general. And I can't say, MY dogs should be left intact, but YOUR dogs should be altered.


All you've been saying is you *THINK,* so no real evidence. You just think. You look at a dog...you think its healthier looking, and so it must be healthy. Last I checked...most sicknesses are internal, dogs are TERRIBLE at presenting outward signs of sickness or weakness.

You don't have to say alter you dogs. What you shouldn't say is "if you neuter the chance your dog dies early goes up by X%" Do you really not get how that's a scare tactic? How of course people aren't going to neuter then? It's one thing to actually lay out the research paper and let the user form their own opinion about it...it's another thing to blindly state a statistic that is truly MEANINGLESS because neither person understands how CORRELATION differs from CAUSATION and why those statistics aren't statistically accurate.


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## lalachka

Diesel7602 said:


> There is a cure for that. Stop looking at dogs jewels. haha Sorry had to, your post made me giggle.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lolol yeah I know

but I don't look. I meant when it as out there. like a dog on his back. or just knowing that the dog is cut is enough. 

not knocking anyone for doing it. just sharing my feelings


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> And the last time you were at an AKC show was?!?!? Did you see the dogs interacting? Running around, off leash? With the owners sitting around on a bench hundreds of yards away? Sorry...didn't realize that an AKC show was a direct representation of the average pet owner. Or wait...all those RN and CGC titles behind your dog's names...all must've been done off leash right? Yup...AKC show...perfect representation of average pet ownership.
> 
> When was the last time anyone really allowed their dogs to "be dogs" at an AKC show?
> 
> And I've SEEN plenty of handlers train their dogs to not have issues with other dogs. Since at a conformation show...a growl is a huge issue...and trust me, the majority of intact males I've trained around for conformation, don't like the one running in front of them...luckily there's always a leash there to stop them from acting on their natural instinct. Can't even count the times I've seen a handler cover their dog's eyes because it was focusing too much on another dog.
> 
> Same with AKC obedience shows...are you saying that the level of obedience you see from dogs entering those shows is what the "average pet owner" achieves with their dog? Really?
> 
> You are just earning an A+ in how to take something out of context, and bring in random data to try to disprove it.


Within the last couple of years. And no it isn't a dog park, but there are thousands of dogs (literally) and the dogs are being walked EVERYWHERE, Into each other. Exiting the Rally or Obedience Ring is going into a sea of other dogs and people, and the dogs are not snapping or growling or barking at each other. 

And yes the RA and the CD and the RE is off-lead as is all the Agility and higher level obedience.


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## lalachka

martem, unnecessary surgery is one. and it just feels wrong. actually, altering a dog so you can go to a dog park sounds even worse. 

i don't know why. it's a a feeling.

ETA not unnecessary, that can be argued. a surgery they probably would've elected not to have if they can make decisions and the reasoning was explained to them. as opposed to a surgery for cancer, for example


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## selzer

I haven't stated ANY Statistics. There ARE statistics out there and research that I have read. But when I wrote that anecdote I was clear that it was extreme and NOT and actual statistic. 

My "if 50% of dogs neutered prior to 1 year die by age 6" or whatever -- it was the ONLY statistic that I put in there AND it was clearly an extreme that was never intended to be taken as a real statistic. It was to make a point. IF 50% of the dog that eat purina dog chow bloat would you feed Purina dog food? Of course not! 

If 50% of the dogs die by age six, we wouldn't be having this conversation because nobody would spay/neuter -- and that was my point.

People do need to see the statistics though, and decide whether the increase in risk is enough to do an unnecessary surgery on a dog. To make up their own risk analysis. It will make sense for some and not for others. Why are we so afraid of having the actual facts.


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## llombardo

lalachka said:


> martem, unnecessary surgery is one. and it just feels wrong. actually, altering a dog so you can go to a dog park sounds even worse.
> 
> i don't know why. it's a a feeling.


The problem is that for many many years it wasn't necessarily unnecessary. All of the sudden dogs are getting cancer and since it can't be explained, the blame has to go somewhere. If very well could be that fixing or not fixing them has nothing to do with anything at all. I personally can't stand the sight of an intact males you know whats, but I don't fix mine based on that. I don't fix mine based on behavior issues or unwanted oops pregnancies either. I do it because what I have experienced. Someone else might experience something else and that is fine. I don't even think threads on this subject should even be allowed anymore. Its been asked and answered many times. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone should do their own research and do what's best for them. I agree with whoever posted that recommending what to do either way when we don't know who we are recommending it to should be taken into consideration.


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> Why are we so afraid of having the actual facts.


You don't give the actual facts. You give a one liner that states a statistic. Nothing behind it that says HOW that statistic was figured out, what was compared, how the experiment was done, how the data was collected, ect. That's the issue. I know you don't get this, and I'm not about to go into a statistics class with you, but without understanding the way the data was gathered...the statistic is worthless. I've read enough of those studies to understand why they aren't "actual facts" just a small study of a sample of dogs that don't even come close to representing the actual population. You cannot, under any acceptable statistical rule, take those studies, and apply them to the population. Therefore...those statistics are just scare tactics, or something used to prove a theory that a vet wanted to publish.


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> You don't give the actual facts. You give a one liner that states a statistic. Nothing behind it that says HOW that statistic was figured out, what was compared, how the experiment was done, how the data was collected, ect. That's the issue. I know you don't get this, and I'm not about to go into a statistics class with you, but without understanding the way the data was gathered...the statistic is worthless. I've read enough of those studies to understand why they aren't "actual facts" just a small study of a sample of dogs that don't even come close to representing the actual population. You cannot, under any acceptable statistical rule, take those studies, and apply them to the population. Therefore...those statistics are just scare tactics, or something used to prove a theory that a vet wanted to publish.


Can you quote some of these one-liner statistics? Usually when I give a statistic I quote the source.


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## martemchik

I've seen you do it one too many times on other threads. You haven't done it here. But it's been done. Please don't lie about how you give the source. I've never seen more than a quick summary of what the study was...like the one about the goldens that somehow related to GSDs.


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> I've seen you do it one too many times on other threads. You haven't done it here. But it's been done. Please don't lie about how you give the source. I've never seen more than a quick summary of what the study was...like the one about the goldens that somehow related to GSDs.


Well than you can kiss my uhm big toe. If I am not doing that in this thread, then don't make like I am. Look, I can be a jerk all by myself, you don't have to help. I don't do that to you.


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## lalachka

martemchik said:


> And to focus on this statement. 99% of people don't have ANY idea that its healthier for the dog to be intact. 99% of dog owners that keep their dogs intact, do it because of some sort of future breeding plans. If they tell you otherwise, they're lying.


speaking of statistics. where are yours coming from?


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## my boy diesel

i honestly think it is a bunch of hype rather like saying ' i feed my dog grain free' or 'gluten free' being healthier
truth is it isnt healthier to eat grain free or gluten free or even necessarily to be intact vs altered
billions of dogs have been intact for years and years and lived to ripe healthy old ages
if they eat grain free and are intact are they going to live forever then since grain and neutering supposedly kills them early? :crazy:

yes i am suggesting it is just a fad and in 5 or 10 yrs everyone will realize it was not any healthier for them at all


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## martemchik

lalachka said:


> speaking of statistics. where are yours coming from?


Going to dog parks, training my dog at 3 different training facilities, going to plenty of dog events, going to those AKC events that one of our members has only been to in the past few years. Yeah...I'm training and trialing, I get to see a lot of different dogs, and a lot of different owners.

I help people train dogs...mostly for pet obedience and basic issues.

Just because I don't have a signature, or a webpage with my accomplishments, doesn't mean I don't do anything out there in the dog world.

I've gone from being that "average dog owner" that would go to dog parks, and socialize with the people we're talking about, to someone that does a lot more with his dog and so I still know and understand how people feel about this issue. I'm not just talking about the few people that I train with or my friends who more than likely have the same ideas about dog ownership as I do.

If you want to sit there and deny that $$$ has nothing to do with the decision to keep a purebred dog intact, you are denying simple human nature.


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## my boy diesel

> and it just feels wrong.





> I think it is more healthy.


well gosh there is irrefutable evidence if there was any :crazy:
because one member thinks it is more healthy and another feels it is wrong to alter we ought to recommend to every average pet owner to leave their dogs intact! :crazy:

as for dogs parks
the reason intact animals do not belong there is if you have an intact male and an intact female in standing heat there are gonna be puppies

its birds and bees folks :shrug:



> If you want to sit there and deny that $$$ has nothing to do with the decision to keep a purebred dog intact, you are denying simple human nature.


money and egos 
i get a lot of the sense of 'i am a better pet owner' and "i am more smart than you are' because my dogs are intact and i have never had an oops (that was not posted about here anyway!) 
this forum is wonderful for judging other pet owners by if they feed raw and if they spay or neuter 
you are a dunce if you cant manage or dont want to manage your pets intact :crazy:


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> i honestly think it is a bunch of hype rather like saying ' i feed my dog grain free' or 'gluten free' being healthier
> truth is it isnt healthier to eat grain free or gluten free or even necessarily to be intact vs altered
> billions of dogs have been intact for years and years and lived to ripe healthy old ages
> if they eat grain free and are intact are they going to live forever then since grain and neutering supposedly kills them early? :crazy:
> 
> yes i am suggesting it is just a fad and in 5 or 10 yrs everyone will realize it was not any healthier for them at all


I think RAW is probably healthier, if one pays attention to how they source the meat, and has a good understanding of the canine requirements, which is part of why I don't feed RAW.

But grain free probably is a fad. How are peas and potatoes better than rice? 

But they do not alter humans without a good cause. They have found that a human's longevity is affected by having a full hysterectomy. Why that wouldn't be true of canines, I don't know. There was a study with Rottweilers that suggested that, but I am too lazy to go and find it and the arguments about it having not enough of a sample size have been played over and over like a broken record.

I think the big reason that I no longer will alter at all is because if a dog gets sick and dies, well that is life. We do all we can, at that time, and maybe the dog makes it and maybe the dog doesn't. Part of being mortal means we die. And there is really nothing we can do to stop that eventuality. BUT, if I do something invasive, like a surgery, and my dog THEN dies from something where a correlation between early altering and that has been recognized, than to prevent something NOT immediately life-threatening, I can believe I caused my dog to die. And therefore, unless there is a good medical reason that the surgery must be preformed, I will not do it.

The same can be said of using monthly flea preventives. We want to prevent the possibility of an annoying problem, but in the process we increase the risk of a life-threatening problem or disease. If the dog has fleas, use the junk and get the fleas gone. But that is 1 month, maybe 2, maybe 3. But not constant from the time the dog is 8 or 12 weeks old.


----------



## lalachka

martemchik said:


> Going to dog parks, training my dog at 3 different training facilities, going to plenty of dog events, going to those AKC events that one of our members has only been to in the past few years. Yeah...I'm training and trialing, I get to see a lot of different dogs, and a lot of different owners.
> 
> I help people train dogs...mostly for pet obedience and basic issues.
> 
> Just because I don't have a signature, or a webpage with my accomplishments, doesn't mean I don't do anything out there in the dog world.
> 
> I've gone from being that "average dog owner" that would go to dog parks, and socialize with the people we're talking about, to someone that does a lot more with his dog and so I still know and understand how people feel about this issue. I'm not just talking about the few people that I train with or my friends who more than likely have the same ideas about dog ownership as I do.
> 
> If you want to sit there and deny that $$$ has nothing to do with the decision to keep a purebred dog intact, you are denying simple human nature.


I block signatures so I wouldn't know even if you had one. you can't say 99% of dog owners simply because you don't know them all. if you did know them all you'd need to be able to see how many of those that didn't neuter ended up breeding their dogs to give your 99% number. 

you know all about statistics and then throw out a number based on a few clubs and dog parks?

breeding Is not just free money. a good amount of work comes with it. I do believe that most people are not keeping their animals intact to make money. 

you throw out stuff like 'if they tell you otherwise they're lying', 'if you're denying it then you don't know human nature' 
so you know it all and everyone is wrong, huh?


----------



## lalachka

Mbd we had females in heat at the park and they don't have babies. 

don't take a line out of my post and mock it as irrefutable evidence. I said that I'm sharing a feeling I get when looking at the dogs. I don't tell anyone what to do with their animals, neuter away. I'm just saying what I feel when I look at a dog that has been fixed.


----------



## my boy diesel

> They have found that a human's longevity is affected by having a full hysterectomy.


and when dogs live to be 80 or 90 or 100 we will then compare them to humans but until then it does not even begin to equate sorry

lala i said _standing_ heat


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> and when dogs live to be 80 or 90 or 100 we will then compare them to humans but until then it does not even begin to equate sorry
> 
> lala i said _standing_ heat


standing, flagging and all. 

she didn't have pups. this was a year ago and there was 3 unfixed males. yes, extremely annoying and she shouldn't have been there but not an automatic pregnancy for sure. maybe our dogs are young and couldn't lock fast enough but it didn't happen.


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## my boy diesel

well then yes it was irresponsible to bring her and i hope nobody else thinks they should because you managed to get lucky and not get her pregnant 
wow


----------



## lalachka

as far as neutering and cancer. I don't believe there's a link or as large of a link. I believe cancer is linked to food and environment. I don't neuter because to me it's unnecessary. I'm a minimalist.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> standing, flagging and all.
> 
> she didn't have pups. this was a year ago and there was 3 unfixed males. yes, extremely annoying and she shouldn't have been there but not an automatic pregnancy for sure. maybe our dogs are young and couldn't lock fast enough but it didn't happen.


Doubt it was a heat then. I've been around a few females in a standing heat with my boy...and there wasn't any getting through to him. No prong, no harness, no ecollar, it doesn't matter. The only solution was to leave. He would've chocked himself before he stopped trying to get to her.

If there was a female in heat, at a dog park, and my boy was off-leash...there is no way I'd be able to stop him before he got to her.

Isn't your dog barely a year old? I'm going to say he was just too young.


----------



## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> and when dogs live to be 80 or 90 or 100 we will then compare them to humans but until then it does not even begin to equate sorry
> 
> lala i said _standing_ heat


Actually, if you ever watch the process of dogs mating, you would be able to see that dog owners would have to be reading books with ear phones on, to not recognize what was happening. 

Of course you don't take a bitch to a dog park when she is in heat. And if the signs that the dogs are paying special attention to her, get her out of there, it may be a silent heat -- but so far, and I have had a LOT of females, I have never had a silent heat, so they can't be that common.

Whatever. 

I do believe that many people DO consider making a buck, getting back their purchase price when they have a purebred dog. I believe that money is a factor for some people. But to totally discount the idea of health, well, there really is NO evidence that it is Martemchik's 99% of people keeping dogs intact are in it for money. 

My brother. Appalling dog/cat owner. Dogs were purebred, cats not. Cats bred several times. Dogs never. Why? Well he is and RN and a BSD, and doesn't believe it is healthy to alter a healthy animal. He had for years, two bitches (GSD) and his dog was a GR. He was able to manage them without producing puppies. He certainly did not let the cats breed for money, and he certainly did not keep the dogs intact for money. It is not the only reason people choose not to alter animals.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> as far as neutering and cancer. I don't believe there's a link or as large of a link. I believe cancer is linked to food and environment. I don't neuter because to me it's unnecessary. I'm a minimalist.


Which is a great reason to not do it! And I've seen you post about why you don't do it, and your advice is very good. It works for YOU. You don't try to scare people by saying that if they do it...their dog will end up dead in 3 years.

That's the kind of advice we should give...the "this works for me" advice and also you should say what it is you've stopped doing because you've kept your dog intact. So people understand how they'll have to adjust their life with an intact dog.

It shouldn't just be..."random stat says dog is healthier" so don't do it.


----------



## lalachka

martemchik said:


> Doubt it was a heat then. I've been around a few females in a standing heat with my boy...and there wasn't any getting through to him. No prong, no harness, no ecollar, it doesn't matter. The only solution was to leave. He would've chocked himself before he stopped trying to get to her.
> 
> If there was a female in heat, at a dog park, and my boy was off-leash...there is no way I'd be able to stop him before he got to her.
> 
> Isn't your dog barely a year old? I'm going to say he was just too young.


what do you mean doubt? I'm telling you she was flagging. she came all two weeks of her heat, skipped a few days. we saw it get worse every day. 

it was 3 dogs, mine is not too sex driven, the other 2 were. they were all between a year and two. yes, they had to be put on leash after taking them off her twice. point is, we were able to get to them before they locked and prevent a pregnancy. 

she came for 2 of her heats, weeks at a time. 
irresponsible and annoying. I couldn't control my dog. we all left but to me things like this are not a good enough reason to neuter.


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> Doubt it was a heat then. I've been around a few females in a standing heat with my boy...and there wasn't any getting through to him. No prong, no harness, no ecollar, it doesn't matter. The only solution was to leave. He would've chocked himself before he stopped trying to get to her.
> 
> If there was a female in heat, at a dog park, and my boy was off-leash...there is no way I'd be able to stop him before he got to her.
> 
> Isn't your dog barely a year old? I'm going to say he was just too young.


Having handled dogs and bitches during standing heat, it isn't that hard. Really. I don't know what kind of maniac dogs you are encouraging the breeding of, but really it isn't that hard, and anyone that has owned an intact dog knows it. Misinformation does not win people to your side of an argument. 

Any breeder on here will tell you that you can handle a dog around bitches in heat. Aren't bitches in heat ALLOWED to continue to train in Schutzhund and trial? How in the world do those people keep their boys on track if there's a bitch in heat there? And you couldn't keep them separated in a dog park? 

You work your dog, do IPO, well give me a break will you -- that is just too out there.


----------



## my boy diesel

lala the point is you should not take an intact animal to the dog park
i am confused about who owned what in your story but nevertheless a tie can happen in a blink so if you plan to take your pet there then the most reasonable action is to alter it
selzer you have obviously not been to dog parks because the owners there do have headphones and become quite distracted visiting with other dog owners 
the point of being there is to let the dog run and be free and all and the owner is basically taking a break from dog ownership
kinda like a day care but with no supervisors

i am just tired of this forum preaching to everyone across the board that it is healthier (no stats to back that up) or it feels wrong to alter so people should not alter their pets


why not ask about the persons lifestyle first?? how do you know any random person on here is actually responsible enough to live with an intact pet?
because it is proven over and over that it is better in the long run for the average pet owner to alter their pet
not only will there be no oops litters or temptations to breed but the owner will be happier as well


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> well then yes it was irresponsible to bring her and i hope nobody else thinks they should because you managed to get lucky and not get her pregnant
> wow


no, it's irresponsible and annoying. I thought there's such a thing as dog park ethics, for real lol. and I thought bringing a female in heat is a no no.

actually, this is a good example. this guy brought his dog for two heats. all dogs would go crazy, we all got annoyed, at some point he would miss a day or two. but you can tell that to him this is a huge inconvenience. he wants to be able to bring her 

another heat comes on, same story. our dogs are older, it's tough on them and tough on us 

he spayed her at 4-5 years old (after he bred her last year) because he wasn't willing to put up with the inconvenience of not being able to come. 


I'd be more understanding if he spayed her before he bred her, I'll be honest


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> I think RAW is probably healthier, if one pays attention to how they source the meat, and has a good understanding of the canine requirements, which is part of why I don't feed RAW.
> 
> .


But if red meat can cause issues with humans, what says it doesn't cause health issues with dogs too?


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> Having handled dogs and bitches during standing heat, it isn't that hard. Really. I don't know what kind of maniac dogs you are encouraging the breeding of, but really it isn't that hard, and anyone that has owned an intact dog knows it. Misinformation does not win people to your side of an argument.
> 
> Any breeder on here will tell you that you can handle a dog around bitches in heat. Aren't bitches in heat ALLOWED to continue to train in Schutzhund and trial? How in the world do those people keep their boys on track if there's a bitch in heat there? And you couldn't keep them separated in a dog park?
> 
> You work your dog, do IPO, well give me a break will you -- that is just too out there.


Are you talking about Schutzhund? Maybe you should do it before you make comments about it? The training...usually ONE dog at a time...all other dogs are in kennels. The trialing...if a bitch is in heat, she will not be trialed in conjunction with an intact male. That isn't fair, it's not objective. The dog will 100% be distracted, even if he doesn't break, and lose plenty of points because of it.

Maybe you should talk about things you know...stop commenting on Schutzhund and AKC trials when its been years since you've been at one.

And putting the dogs in separate kennels outside doesn't constitute "handling" dogs with bitches in heat.

Maybe if your breeding males had some drive, they'd be harder to handle.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> what do you mean doubt? I'm telling you she was flagging. she came all two weeks of her heat, skipped a few days. we saw it get worse every day.
> 
> it was 3 dogs, mine is not too sex driven, the other 2 were. they were all between a year and two. yes, they had to be put on leash after taking them off her twice. point is, we were able to get to them before they locked and prevent a pregnancy.
> 
> she came for 2 of her heats, weeks at a time.
> irresponsible and annoying. I couldn't control my dog. we all left but to me things like this are not a good enough reason to neuter.


So basically...you knew before you got there the bitch was in heat. So you were prepared to handle it.

Imagine if you weren't. Imagine if some random person, across the park, brought a bitch in heat to the dog park. And you walked in, with an intact male, and just saw him take off...covering about 500 yards in less time than you'd be able to cover 50. You're telling me you'd be able to prevent it?

Nice story...


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> lala the point is you should not take an intact animal to the dog park
> i am confused about who owned what in your story but nevertheless a tie can happen in a blink so if you plan to take your pet there then the most reasonable action is to alter it
> i am just tired of this forum preaching to everyone across the board that it is healthier (no stats to back that up) or it feels wrong to alter so people should not alter their pets
> 
> why not ask about the persons lifestyle first?? how do you know any random person on here is actually responsible enough to live with an intact pet?
> because it is proven over and over that it is better in the long run for the average pet owner to alter their pet
> not only will there be no oops litters or temptations to breed but the owner will be happier as well


I'm not telling anyone not to do it. I'm just sharing my feelings. I do try to stay out of these threads but at some point it's hard. 

to be fair, I've been judged and ridiculed for my choice not to neuter. I have some straight up weird stories. I don't judge the neutering crowd, at least not out loud.


----------



## lalachka

martemchik said:


> So basically...you knew before you got there the bitch was in heat. So you were prepared to handle it.
> 
> Imagine if you weren't. Imagine if some random person, across the park, brought a bitch in heat to the dog park. And you walked in, with an intact male, and just saw him take off...covering about 500 yards in less time than you'd be able to cover 50. You're telling me you'd be able to prevent it?
> 
> Nice story...


Actually no, we didn't know. we'd figure out after the dogs were all on her

these days my dog is always on leash if I see a dog walking in the park (ours is just a public park) and I don't let him off until they leave. I'm ok with this. I manage him for aggression, not for females in heat but I've been told to neuter to get rid of the aggression. I'd rather keep managing. some people would rather not. maybe my dog would be happier not neutered and off leash. I don't know.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> I'm not telling anyone not to do it. I'm just sharing my feelings. I do try to stay out of these threads but at some point it's hard.
> 
> to be fair, I've been judged and ridiculed for my choice not to neuter. I have some straight up weird stories. I don't judge the neutering crowd, at least not out loud.


If I remember right your dog has some issues that some might say aren't solid nerves right? If I'm wrong please forgive me. If I'm right, why would you take your dog that is not neutered anywhere a female in heat might be? Is it a good idea to produce puppies that might not be solid? Do you want to be responsible for that? If you had a female, you could avoid situations like that by simply keeping her home when in heat. But you have a male that can and will be ready to mate whenever he can.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> If I remember right your dog has some issues that some might say aren't solid nerves right? If I'm wrong please forgive me. If I'm right, why would you take your dog that is not neutered anywhere a female in heat might be? Is it a good idea to produce puppies that might not be solid? Do you want to be responsible for that? If you had a female, you could avoid situations like that by simply keeping her home when in heat. But you have a male that can and will be ready to mate whenever he can.


he does have issues and even if he didnt, that's not how you make pups, by letting him mount someone at a park. 

he won't breed. I'm always watching him. we go to the park to train and to play not for other dogs. actually we go at 12 am to try to minimize the number of dogs and people that are there. I don't have a yard


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> I'd rather keep managing. some people would rather not. maybe my dog would be happier not neutered and off leash. I don't know.


Just these two points...

You want to keep managing...all the power to you...do you really believe the other pet owners out there are willing to put in that time to manage their dog if they saw the same issues you did? Or do you think people that frequent dog parks would rather not worry about it, and just let their dogs in and have fun.

Second part...your dog wouldn't be happier. It doesn't matter to him. He's happy with you. But the people that frequent dog parks don't think that way. They think dogs are happiest playing with each other, running around, having "fun." Not many realize that a dog interacting with their human, gives a dog just as much happiness (if not more) than playing with random/strange dogs.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> he won't breed. I'm always watching him. we go to the park to train and to play not for other dogs. actually we go at 12 am to try to minimize the number of dogs and people that are there. I don't have a yard


And you know you're different! Come on...how many people watch their dogs? I had to start watching my dog when he started "finishing" fights, and it made the park not fun, it made it stressful, so we stopped going. Easy solution. But most people at the dog park...they don't want to watch their dog, and they want to keep going to the park. So what's the easiest solution? Take the hormones out of the picture.

Trust me...the dogs, the breed, the over all dog population, will not be hurt at all if "pet people" were neutering and spaying. If anything, all it would do is avoid a few unwanted litters that might end up in the pound.


----------



## lalachka

I do agree with you that most people should neuter. I just feel bad for the doggies lol. antromorphizing? I'm sure. 
this is a bad subject. people will always fight over this as they do over training methods.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> he does have issues and even if he didnt, that's not how you make pups, by letting him mount someone at a park.
> 
> he won't breed. I'm always watching him. we go to the park to train and to play not for other dogs. actually we go at 12 am to try to minimize the number of dogs and people that are there. I don't have a yard


If he mounts and connects with a female in heat at the park that is exactly how puppies get here. You can't just break it up either because you can hurt either or both dogs. I understand that you do everything in your power to watch him, but like someone else said, if someone comes in with a female in heat or even a stray dog 100 ft away and your dog takes off, there is nothing that you can do.


----------



## lalachka

I don't think it would end the dogs in the shelters. people are not adopting because there are dogs thst must be saved. they're adopting because they want a dog and they are figuring they might as well adopt. you know what I mean? Like people that don't want pets are not going to shelters and adopting just because the dogs need a place to go. maybe some but for most it's just a better place to get a dog. 

so if shelters went empty today then they'd go to bybs and pet stores and wherever. 

people's attitudes need to change.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> If he mounts and connects with a female in heat at the park that is exactly how puppies get here. You can't just break it up either because you can hurt either or both dogs. I understand that you do everything in your power to watch him, but like someone else said, if someone comes in with a female in heat or even a stray dog 100 ft away and your dog takes off, there is nothing that you can do.


doesn't it take a little while to lock? I know a lock can't be broken but I thought I have some time before thst happens. 
but in any case, he's on leash or dragging a leash these days unless there's no one there

to be fair, he's on leash for nerve issues. I don't think I'd keep him on leash if he wasn't. I still want him playing with me but I'd let him loose. tough to do much with the leashes dragging on the ground.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> But if red meat can cause issues with humans, what says it doesn't cause health issues with dogs too?


aren't they made different? we also can't eat poop and raw stinky meat and a few other things without getting sick


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> I don't think it would end the dogs in the shelters. people are not adopting because there are dogs thst must be saved. they're adopting because they want a dog and they are figuring they might as well adopt. you know what I mean? Like people that don't want pets are not going to shelters and adopting just because the dogs need a place to go. maybe some but for most it's just a better place to get a dog.
> 
> so if shelters went empty today then they'd go to bybs and pet stores and wherever.
> 
> people's attitudes need to change.


It wouldn't end shelters but it might end so many innocent dogs being destroyed daily. Every oops litter takes away the chance of a dog or cat in the shelter getting a home. 

One shelter, garbage cans filled daily. All these oops animals getting thrown away like trash. Yes peoples attitudes need to change

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=228401&stc=1&d=1406150433


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> aren't they made different? we also can't eat poop and raw stinky meat and a few other things without getting sick


Red meat is red meat. If it causes cancer in humans, why not in dogs? Point is if people(in general) want to compare fixing a dog to a human, let's talk about diet too .


----------



## lalachka

I saw this picture before. it's horrifying. disposable.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> doesn't it take a little while to lock? I know a lock can't be broken but I thought I have some time before thst happens.
> but in any case, he's on leash or dragging a leash these days unless there's no one there
> 
> to be fair, he's on leash for nerve issues. I don't think I'd keep him on leash if he wasn't. I still want him playing with me but I'd let him loose. tough to do much with the leashes dragging on the ground.


Nah...sometimes it takes a while, other times it takes seconds. It depends on the dogs. We've had plenty of threads on this forum about how someone left their dogs outside for 1 minute, looked down at something, looked up, and bam there it was.


----------



## lalachka

martemchik said:


> Nah...sometimes it takes a while, other times it takes seconds. It depends on the dogs. We've had plenty of threads on this forum about how someone left their dogs outside for 1 minute, looked down at something, looked up, and bam there it was.


good to know. I will be more careful.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> I saw this picture before. it's horrifying. disposable.


It's what we as a society have chosen for these animals. They are living breathing things and don't deserve to die like this, everyday. This is why most people should spay or neuter. Not necessarily everyone, but definitely most.


----------



## Liesje

lalachka said:


> doesn't it take a little while to lock? I know a lock can't be broken but I thought I have some time before thst happens.
> but in any case, he's on leash or dragging a leash these days unless there's no one there


There's a lot of "what ifs" in the past few pages of this thread. Now, this is also purely anecdotal but NO, it takes SECONDS for my male to achieve a tie with a ready and willing female. We did a live cover breeding last summer and we were worried about the female being maiden...they were tied before she was even all the way into my yard, didn't even get the leashes off. It probably takes him half a dozen thrusts if the female is in standing heat and receptive. Same when he's been collected for long distance AIs, it takes him less than 10 seconds to ejaculate. The only reason it can take time is because the female isn't truly ready and wants to mess around or flirt and won't really stand for the male, or their anatomy just doesn't physically connect without some effort. But if both dogs are healthy as far as breeding and she is really ready, it takes seconds.

That said, he isn't really interested in a female that's not truly ready, and the breedings we've done the females have always been real nasty to him when they are no ready yet. When they are truly physically ready (not just in heat, but on a prime day for conception), he is much more dominant and persists until he gets a tie or is removed. It is hard to get through to him at THIS point, but on the days leading up to and the days after, he is easy enough to control verbally. Might be more distracted by the female's presence but it's not really a big deal, and we've done plenty of training, trialing, and showing around females and even females in heat.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> good to know. I will be more careful.


BTW...I don't believe that the risk of tying is huge at a dog park, or just out and about. It's really the people that keep two intact animals at home, without knowing what to do, and thinking it will be easy that freak me out. The ones that have an intact male, get a female, and chose not to spay. Those are the ones that usually end up with oops litters.

As an owner of an intact male...I don't worry about him getting out, and roaming, and finding an intact female to mate with. He won't jump my 4 ft fence to get there. It's not my biggest worry.

But if my bitch was intact...that would be a headache I wouldn't want to deal with.


----------



## lalachka

Liesje said:


> There's a lot of "what ifs" in the past few pages of this thread. Now, this is also purely anecdotal but NO, it takes SECONDS for my male to achieve a tie with a ready and willing female. We did a live cover breeding last summer and we were worried about the female being maiden...they were tied before she was even all the way into my yard, didn't even get the leashes off. It probably takes him half a dozen thrusts if the female is in standing heat and receptive. Same when he's been collected for long distance AIs, it takes him less than 10 seconds to ejaculate. The only reason it can take time is because the female isn't truly ready and wants to mess around or flirt and won't really stand for the male, or their anatomy just doesn't physically connect without some effort. But if both dogs are healthy as far as breeding and she is really ready, it takes seconds.
> 
> That said, he isn't really interested in a female that's not truly ready, and the breedings we've done the females have always been real nasty to him when they are no ready yet. When they are truly physically ready (not just in heat, but on a prime day for conception), he is much more dominant and persists until he gets a tie or is removed. It is hard to get through to him at THIS point, but on the days leading up to and the days after, he is easy enough to control verbally. Might be more distracted by the female's presence but it's not really a big deal, and we've done plenty of training, trialing, and showing around females and even females in heat.


Lol at before she was all the way in your yard))))))))

oh well, I'm glad this came up today then. I will be very careful. 


but then how do people deal with this? so any public places for intact dogs are off limits then? since you never know who will bring their female in heat there


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> but then how do people deal with this? so any public places for intact dogs are off limits then? since you never know who will bring their female in heat there


Most dog parks will have rules about no females in heat. Some will have rules about intact dogs period. The biggest worry is always when the dogs are off leash. If the dog is on leash...it's not the most difficult thing to prevent.

I can tell pretty fast when I'm walking Rooney if there is an intact female around that's in heat. His demeanor definitely changes. So I get a little more watchful. If I'm walking him, we rarely say "hello" to other dogs anyways so its not a worry for me.

But yes...an area like a dog park, is way different. Who knows what's in there...and you usually don't have physical restraint/control of your dog. So there are generally rules posted...but it doesn't mean people listen or realize their dog is in heat.


----------



## Liesje

Oh heavens no. Both my males are intact and I take them all over, though I don't personally use dog parks, but they do go to the off leash dog beaches. Someone who takes a female in standing heat to an off leash public park is asking for it.


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## lalachka

I don't go to dog parks either but I go to public parks and you never know whos bringing what there. 

yeah, they're asking for it but what would you do if there was a female in heat and your dog mounted her?


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## llombardo

lalachka said:


> I don't go to dog parks either but I go to public parks and you never know whos bringing what there.
> 
> yeah, they're asking for it but what would you do if there was a female in heat and your dog mounted her?


You read my mind with your question. It does take two. I could see that turning into the blame game pretty quick.


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## Liesje

lalachka said:


> I don't go to dog parks either but I go to public parks and you never know whos bringing what there.
> 
> yeah, they're asking for it but what would you do if there was a female in heat and your dog mounted her?


If they tie, wait it out I guess. I think I have a higher chance of getting struck down by lightening though. 1) I don't bring my GSDs to dog parks, 2) the types of places my dogs usually frequent in public do not typically have visitors of the type that would bring a female in standing heat and let her loose and then try to blame someone else, and 3) like I said my male doesn't waste any effort with a female that's not actually ready, he can tell (sometimes he is right despite what a repro vet or progesterone test says). It's not something that's ever really been a concern. I do tons of training and events with my dogs. Many already ban females in heat and the ones that don't have people who have at least an ounce of common sense (for example, at flyball training when the females are in heat they just don't come, b/c even though all the dogs are trained and under control, they're still working off leash). It's more likely that my mutts would get in a spat at a dog park with another spayed/neutered dog. I think that due to the spay/neuter culture in the US is actually rare to meet an intact female dog that is not a breeding dog or at least owned by someone who has common sense. I don't know anyone that leaves their female pets intact for life just because (I know people who breed, or who leave a female intact until she matures or to evaluate late for breeding). In the dog world, it's the unwritten rule that the responsibility to prevent a tie lies with the owner of the female in heat. You see females in heat banned from events but you never see events that say "intact males are banned". I'm not saying it's *fair*, but that's how it is and that's one reason why I choose to train and compete with males. I don't have heat cycles interrupting my training and competition or limiting where I feel it's safe to take my dogs.


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## lalachka

I really don't want my dog bred but seeing how people do bring their dogs in heat to public parks and let them loose (this is not a dog park) I'm wondering if I'm always able to control it. 

I thought I had 30 secs or so before a tie but I now see I don't. just wondering how people with intact dogs deal with this possibility, that's why I asked.


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## Liesje

Honestly it's not something I've ever had to worry about, but I personally haven't had to deal with people parading flagging bitches around a public park and letting them off leash. 

When I have a female at my house for a breeding I take every precaution. If she is out in my (fully enclosed/fenced yard), I am out there with her. She does not leave the house or the enclosed yard area, not even a leash walk anywhere (unless she needs to go to the vet). At home she is kept in a crate in my house away from the other dogs (not anywhere outdoors or kenneled) and I have a wooden gate/door installed. Not that it really matters since my other dogs are a neutered male who has never noticed a female in heat, a spayed female, my intact male who is supposed to be breeding her (so I suppose it's not the end of the world if he breaks her out), and then I have my 9 month old intact male that I take WITH ME any time I leave the house so I can be sure there is no way he breaks down the gate and busts her out of the crate. When the female is here, my breeding male is restless, more vocal, and more likely to bark at people going past the house (normally he wouldn't notice) but is not difficult for me to control. I don't have to crate him or use a leash just to keep him from trying to get to her. But when it is time to breed and I allow them to be together, he goes at it fast.


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## lalachka

Lolol 'parading flagging bitches' and 'who's supposed to be breeding her so I suppose it's not the end of the world'

yep. I hate this park because of all the dumbness that goes on there but it's just such a nice space and the only one I can go to every day


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## my boy diesel

> Second part...your dog wouldn't be happier. It doesn't matter to him.


exactly this
i can tell you without reservation that dogs care very little if their parts are there or not
in fact it can be better without them really because they arent stressed over territory and the like

btw i wanted to point out a breeding is only one of the worries of your dog mating with a female
there is aggression issues (if another male wants to do the same) and also your male can be injured easily if a tie is attempted to be broken by the owner or even the female dog
both can be injured that way
there are also stds in the dog world so there is that risk as well


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## selzer

The only dog park in the tri-county area is about 1/2 acre for the big dogs and a little less for the small dogs. And yes, a well-seasoned stud can get busy quickly. I have not seen any get a tie in less than a minute, but when the dog is seasoned and the bitch is ready, it doesn't have to take all day to get the tie. 

But with inexperienced dogs, or with dogs that are not on the optimum day, the dog will sniff and lick at the ground where she pottied and be attracted to her hind end, he may cavort about, step on her tail to get her to stand up. Press her to stand for him. He may mount her head. He probably will jump up several times, jump off and check where he is trying to go and try again. 

People generally say, "oh, we only left them for a minute..." because they don't want all the wrath of dogdom to come down on them. They wanted a litter of puppies and they allowed their dog to breed their bitch, and now they are trying to figure out what to do next.

And that's the thing. I really don't think 99% of the people who keep them intact do it for the money they may make. But I wouldn't be surprised if your statistic Martemchik is correct about oops litters not being true oopses, especially when they just happen to be two purebreds of the same sex. But not because people want the money so much, but that people want puppies. They want to experience having puppies. They want a pup out of their dog or bitch. They want to pass on their great dog's genes, and so forth. 

As for dogs being distracted by bitches in heat, whether or not they are on the field at the same time, doesn't matter. Bitches can be scented for miles they say. The dogs definitely know when there is a bitch in heat. A bitch in some venues will be dismissed if she proves too attractive to the males. Friends have told me they have used vanilla on their bitches to mask the scent. But there are bitches in heat at shows too. Some show people meet up at shows if the timing is right and breed the bitch behind the barn (sometimes literally). So we are talking standing heat. 

The tie is generally what takes all the time. Yupp, if it happens waiting it out is all you can do. But both dog and bitch will be doing plenty to let you know what is going on, the bitch is flagging, etc, the dog is maybe barking excitedly, pulling and very interested. It isn't something that you can mistake for anything but. Really. 


Just not something to worry about. 

So yes, it is the people who own dog and bitch both intact that fail to supervise and separate their dogs properly that may have an oops. 
Most of those oopses are oopses in name only -- "oh we were going to breed them, but when she was older" yeah, right, they let their dog get their puppy bitch. 

If people were encouraged to wait until their dog was mature and properly trained before bringing home a puppy, then there would be no reason not to neuter the adult before bringing home a new puppy. Then dogs could be raised with the benefit of hormones for growth and development and there wouldn't be any oopses. 

People who want puppies will have puppies. Some of them will be less up front about it and make like they weren't careful enough and it was a big mistake. It is kind of like the people who say their dog never showed any signs of aggression after it mauls someone. It is a problem for everyone who owns those kinds of dogs because it promotes the belief that they just turn. Same thing. When people play their OOPS card, it hurts all the people who want to keep their dogs intact longer because it promotes the belief that it can happen in a split second at the dog park.


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## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> exactly this
> i can tell you without reservation that dogs care very little if their parts are there or not
> in fact it can be better without them really because they arent stressed over territory and the like
> 
> btw i wanted to point out a breeding is only one of the worries of your dog mating with a female
> there is aggression issues (if another male wants to do the same) and also your male can be injured easily if a tie is attempted to be broken by the owner or even the female dog
> both can be injured that way
> there are also stds in the dog world so there is that risk as well


Mbd lol you picked the wrong part to agree to

I said maybe my dog would've been happier neutered and then he'd get to run around off leash and martemchik said the above. 

but I realize that my dog wouldn't know if I neutered him or not. similarly he wouldn't know if I cut off many other parts. 

we all do what we think is best. I'm sure that owners that neuter dont do it with the intention of hurting their dogs. They make decisions based on what they think is best. we just have have different opinions on what's best. 

about aggression. I'd rather learn to deal with it. to me neutering is not acceptable. but I'm not knocking those that do.


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## lalachka

selzer, that's where I got the idea it takes a minute or two, from watching my friend's dog. she's not on top of hers like I'm on mine and he goes farther away than mine does and she was still able to get him off multiple times. they're all inexperienced so I'm sure that's why. lol lies' dog didn't let the female come in the yard))))))))))))

and I'm glad you mentioned the posts here about oops litters that took a minute. I also didn't believe them. they just didn't want to admit they did it on purpose. maybe some didn't but most do


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## lalachka

llombardo said:


> Red meat is red meat. If it causes cancer in humans, why not in dogs? Point is if people(in general) want to compare fixing a dog to a human, let's talk about diet too .


I missed this post. I didn't know it causes cancer. I doubt it's the meat. people have been eating red meat way before cancer was around. I just think that all the chemicals that everyone is breathing and eating is affecting everything. so it's not the meat but what the cows eat. just my uneducated opinion. 

I'm not comparing fixing a dog to a human and I'm not deciding against it because of health issues. I just don't see a reason TO do it.


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## Diesel7602

lalachka said:


> I missed this post. I didn't know it causes cancer. I doubt it's the meat. people have been eating red meat way before cancer was around. I just think that all the chemicals that everyone is breathing and eating is affecting everything. so it's not the meat but what the cows eat. just my uneducated opinion.
> 
> I'm not comparing fixing a dog to a human and I'm not deciding against it because of health issues. I just don't see a reason TO do it.


I don't think it's the red meat. Maybe the hormones they inject in the cow. I know it is causing younger girls to hit puberty at younger age. At which, if a women is producing early estrogen it can cause them to develop cancers. 

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## lalachka

Diesel7602 said:


> I don't think it's the red meat. Maybe the hormones they inject in the cow. I know it is causing younger girls to hit puberty at younger age. At which, if a women is producing early estrogen it can cause them to develop cancers.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh yeah, good point. I forgot cows get shots these days. technology. cool stuff.


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## lalachka

but diesel, weren't women producing estrogen early centuries ago as well? 
the reason I believe that cancer is food and environment related is because that's what changed in the last century. chemicals everywhere. 
everything else was around forever and there was no cancer. maybe some things are contributing factors but the main ones imo are the chemicals


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## Diesel7602

lalachka said:


> but diesel, weren't women producing estrogen early centuries ago as well?
> the reason I believe that cancer is food and environment related is because that's what changed in the last century. chemicals everywhere.
> everything else was around forever and there was no cancer. maybe some things are contributing factors but the main ones imo are the chemicals


True , true. But . Women who begin menstruating*early, or who start menopause late, produce more ... And that has called into question the route*cancer-causingestrogens*take in stimulating tumors.


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## Diesel7602

Diesel7602 said:


> True , true. But . Women who begin menstruating*early, or who start menopause late, produce more ... And that has called into question the route*cancer-causingestrogens*take in stimulating tumors.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm not big on facts.... Only what I've seen. I've heard of this for awhile. It only make sense to me, because my mother in law got her period when she was 10, and develop Breast cancer in here 30s.

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## lalachka

what I'm saying is, why didn't some of the women that menstruated early didn't get cancer 300 years ago


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## Diesel7602

lalachka said:


> what I'm saying is, why didn't some of the women that menstruated early didn't get cancer 300 years ago


I don't know... This is what I learned. I'm not the kettle calling black. I still eat red meat, and love it. I was just going off why red meat is know to cause cancer. But to your question, a lot of people died back then. Mostly from UN known causes. Maybe because they didn't have the right technology like we do now to say it was cancer . :what: and honestly, I didn't live 300 years ago, and I don't think it was ever documented or recorded of what age these women got there period. So I really can't answer. 

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## DobbyDad

.???????? 

What happened to thus thread.


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## G-burg

> .????????
> 
> What happened to this thread.


 LOL.. Seriously!!  Like most threads on this board, they always go off in another direction! :help:

As for the when too.. I think it really depends on the owners and what they are comfortable with... Also, what type of lifestyle they led and what plans they have for their dogs..


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## Diesel7602

Oh I'm sorry. Carry on with 16 more pages on why too or why not too neutering. Tip: if you want, you can easily not read other people's comments that don't apply to you. 

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## lalachka

Diesel7602 said:


> Oh I'm sorry. Carry on with 16 more pages on why too or why not too neutering. Tip: if you want, you can easily not read other people's comments that don't apply to you.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol yeah I know. many people's posts annoy me. I just skip them, I don't tell them what to write and what not to write. 

also, any thread will take turns as conversations do.


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## Ace GSD

lalachka said:


> Lol yeah I know. many people's posts annoy me. I just skip them, I don't tell them what to write and what not to write.
> 
> also, any thread will take turns as conversations do.


Get some popcorn while you reading them


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## Diesel7602

You better share that popcorn. I have a feeling that it's going to be one of those cheep Netflix movies. The only thing that's going to come out of this , is the popcorn. =)

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## Diesel7602

lalachka said:


> Lol yeah I know. many people's posts annoy me. I just skip them, I don't tell them what to write and what not to write.
> 
> also, any thread will take turns as conversations do.


((Knuckles))

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## Liesje

Since it's a "sticky" thread it really would be more useful if it stayed on topic.


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## Diesel7602

Liesje said:


> Since it's a "sticky" thread it really would be more useful if it stayed on topic.


True dat... Nothing wrong throwing a little curve ball once in awhile. I honestly think this topic has been beaten to death. Nothing wrong with wondering off the trail a bit. 

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## rena

For me i neutered my male when he was 11 years old. I would never have done that but we got a female and he went absolutely nuts!!! He was freaking out all day and night and we could not sleep so had enough and had him chopped. THe ONLY side effect….he got fluffy. Hes not fat just much bigger. Im okay with that as he still has all the energy so I myself would not do it unless their is a reason.


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## Tattersail

martemchik said:


> I've seen you do it one too many times on other threads. You haven't done it here. But it's been done. Please don't lie about how you give the source. I've never seen more than a quick summary of what the study was...like the one about the goldens that somehow related to GSDs.



That wasn't Selzer that posted that article, that was me... and of course it doesn't relate to GSD's but it does relate to the topic on hand of speutering.... I thought it was an interesting article on the subject, but so many seem to just be blowing up instead of having rational conversation.


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## lalachka

Tattersail said:


> That wasn't Selzer that posted that article, that was me... and of course it doesn't relate to GSD's but it does relate to the topic on hand of speutering.... I thought it was an interesting article on the subject, but so many seem to just be blowing up instead of having rational conversation.


Can you post a link pls?


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## Tattersail

lalachka said:


> Can you post a link pls?


Sure 

PLOS ONE: Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers


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## my boy diesel

these 'studies' are too fraught with maybes possibly's and 'might" and 'could' to be taken seriously i am sorry to say
my response to the lab and golden study is thus
overbreeding has caused some significant health changes in both breeds
one has to only visit ofa to see the dismal hip scores in both breeds

considering that those animals were kept intact most likely for breeding purposes because generally average pet owners (who might alter) dont ofa their dogs

there are just too many other factors to pin joint disorders on early s n when both breeds are suffering as a whole

i would tend to agree that 8 or 9 months would be a better age to spay and neuter


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## lalachka

I was just curious. I don't believe any studies. not for neutering and not against. it's not possible to do them right. there are too many factors, as you said.


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## robrymond

Will neuturing reduce my dog running off by distractions and help calm him around the cat? He is 9 months now and although he has calmed down a bit, his 'prey' drive is high and it means having him off lead now in the countryside/park is becoming tricky due to his size.

I've had him off lead from a young age but now he is bigger he is offputting to people if he runs off to someone. The other issue is lead aggression, when he shows aggression to certain dogs he cannot get too. Off lead he is fine!


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## Vivid

rena said:


> For me i neutered my male when he was 11 years old. I would never have done that but we got a female and he went absolutely nuts!!! He was freaking out all day and night and we could not sleep so had enough and had him chopped. THe ONLY side effect….he got fluffy. Hes not fat just much bigger. Im okay with that as he still has all the energy so I myself would not do it unless their is a reason.


I agree - unless there is a reason I wouldn't do it to my dog.


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## Traci & Michael

stoli2003 said:


> I have decided for the most part to leave Zore "intact" He just turned five months this week, did some research and read alot of threads on the subject We consider our selves to be very good dog parents, training is going just fine, spend time on training almost everyday when I'm not traveling. Our yard is totally fenced in, chances are slim he will ever get out to roam and create unwanted puppies in the world. Our others never did ( this is our first boy) so we are going to see how he grows up for a while.


He is beautiful! I see he drinks lite beer! Good for the physique 😍


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## Church

Ace GSD said:


> Definitly for the dog's best  cause dogs are naturally better spayed or neuter.....their parents do this themself in the wild


Hey, sorry, new here- dumb question alert- how do the parents in the wild spay their females? I guess males pretty easy to grasp the concept there... 

Also, wouldn't this contradict the best interests of the species? Like, biologically speaking, if you had offspring, you want them to continue breeding right? To continue your lineage? I'm not for/against this debate, I just love information. Cheers!


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