# PetsMart/iPO question



## daviddrena (Dec 25, 2006)

Quick question?? If I take my puppy to the PetsMart for training ( obedience classes), will it hinder him later in IPO training.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Probably not, but its probably not going to help either.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Probably not, but its probably not going to help either.


:thumbup:


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## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

I took my pup to the puppy obedience class at PetSmart when she was 11 weeks old, strictly for socialization, because I didn't know anyone else that had a dog she could socialize with. The first day of class, they saw that she could do everything she would have "learned" in the puppy class, so they switched us to the intermediate class. I don't know much about IPO, but in my personal experience with the PetSmart "training", the only thing that could possibly hinder more advanced training would be the way they teach heeling. Their heeling is pretty much nothing more than loose leash walking. At the time I was taking the class, I was working on more of a competition heel with Zelda (at home)...like this: 






So I hadn't even started forward motion while heeling on the day we started heeling at the petsmart class. And I didn't want to screw up all of the work I was doing at home, so I tried to explain that to the trainer at petsmart. She kind of just rolled her eyes and looked at me crazy. I just sat out whenever the class was heeling lol. On graduation day for her intermediate class, during her test, the trainer and the other people in the class were quite impressed when I placed my 19 week old puppy 10 ft in front of me and said "FUSS!" And she walked right in front of me, did a left finish into the heel position, and then we walked down the aisle  Everyone who had probably thought I was being stuck up and crazy for not heeling during class, finally understood. I'm not gonna lie....it was quite awesome lol :tongue:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If your goal is IPO then you want a good foundation of correct obedience on your pup. You are not going to get that at PetSmart.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

A blind monkey could run a petsmart training class. Get about the same results as most of the trainers there too..


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

If you want to do IPO, I would go to an IPO club. Not Petsmart. I work there as a trainer right now. Petsmart training is geared towards strictly pet dogs. It won't teach the techniques needed for competition.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think I could scream everytime that I see people put down theses trainers at Petsmart. There are some really good ones if you look. Some of them actually love their job and do it because they love it not for a paycheck. My dogs and I learned more there then any other place including the GSD club. It's different kind of training completely. The GSD club just kinda threw you out there and you watch and learn. My Petsmart trainer takes the time to address issues that she sees and concerns people have about their dogs. She spends one on one time with you and is always available to answer questions. There are three levels. The things that are covered are sit, down, stand, sit/stay for a minute and a half, down stay for 3 minutes, paw, back, front, side, around, stand/stay, sitting for petting, sitting for brushing, , walking through a crowd, leave it, watch , bang bang, walking in pairs with another dog, come, agility(tunnel, jump, and tire), heel, loose leash walking, about turns, right turn, left turn, spin, and touch. All items that are on the CGC test are touched on and the trainer offers an extra class after they graduate from the last class to do a test run of CGC test, then schedules the test do everyone can do it. I don't think that is to shabby for Petsmart training or a trainer. Oh and her dogs are titled in obedience, rally, and agility and they are all therapy dogs(2 Rotts and a pug). Do your research, find out what each class offers and watch a couple different classes in order to make your decision. It can be a stepping stone for your end goal.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> *I think I could scream everytime that I see people put down theses trainers at Petsmart*. There are some really good ones if you look. Some of them actually love their job and do it because they love it not for a paycheck. My dogs and I learned more there then any other place including the GSD club. It's different kind of training completely. The GSD club just kinda threw you out there and you watch and learn. My Petsmart trainer takes the time to address issues that she sees and concerns people have about their dogs. She spends one on one time with you and is always available to answer questions. There are three levels. The things that are covered are sit, down, stand, sit/stay for a minute and a half, down stay for 3 minutes, paw, back, front, side, around, stand/stay, sitting for petting, sitting for brushing, , walking through a crowd, leave it, watch , bang bang, walking in pairs with another dog, come, agility(tunnel, jump, and tire), heel, loose leash walking, about turns, right turn, left turn, spin, and touch. All items that are on the CGC test are touched on and the trainer offers an extra class after they graduate from the last class to do a test run of CGC test, then schedules the test do everyone can do it. I don't think that is to shabby for Petsmart training or a trainer. Oh and her dogs are titled in obedience, rally, and agility and they are all therapy dogs(2 Rotts and a pug). Do your research, find out what each class offers and watch a couple different classes in order to make your decision.* It can be a stepping stone for your end goal*.


 I dissagree with the stepping stone into IPO....it may be something that has to be worked on to fix instead.
IF the question was more about IPO foundation which a pet trainer usually doesn't have a clue about...best to get with a club early on and not waste time squashing the drive that the pet type trainer is use to doing. 
How many petco/petsmart trainers allow drive building/tug as a reward? Or allow the dog to bark at and push the handler for more engagement?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have done some puppy and intermediate obedience classes with my two dogs that now have SchH titles, but I went to a place with a trainer that understood my goals for IPO and how I intended to train, so there wasn't any conflict. I don't regret doing it, it was good socialization and a great chance to proof what I was already working on at home in a more distracting environment. I've never trained at PetSmart so can't speak to the quality of their training.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have been involved in or with the pet training industry for a very long time. MOST classes are not geared to competition people. Either find an IPO club or find a good competition obedience trainer/instructor that encourages and understands how to work with a dog's natural drives.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

So assuming we have a great Pet Smart trainer like Pax8 running the class. Exactly what part of that training will foul up or otherwise interfere with IPO?

Some posters are getting to this issue, which I think gets at the heart of what the OP is asking.



Youreamonkey274 said:


> ... in my personal experience with the PetSmart "training", the only thing that could possibly hinder more advanced training would be the way they teach heeling. Their heeling is pretty much nothing more than loose leash walking.


Ok, so it's the heeling. But can't you just train a different command for the different kinds of heeling? Does that cause problems for sport?



lhczth said:


> If your goal is IPO then you want a good foundation of correct obedience on your pup. You are not going to get that at PetSmart.


Not sure what you mean by this. What pet foundation training interferes with "correct obedience"? Do you mean the positions, precision and expectations that come with competition? Do you think that can be ramped up later by setting stricter standards and shaping? 

Personally, you won't get very far training unless you yourself dedicate a lot of time learning and practicing. Trainers help us learn what to do but ultimately it's up to the owner/handler to make it work.

ETA: just after I posted I noticed you said "encourages and understands how to work with a dog's natural drives". Thats a very helpful comment. Care to expand on that?



onyx'girl said:


> I dissagree with the stepping stone into IPO....it may be something that has to be worked on to fix instead.
> IF the question was more about IPO foundation which a pet trainer usually doesn't have a clue about...best to get with a club early on and not waste time squashing the drive that the pet type trainer is use to doing.
> How many petco/petsmart trainers allow drive building/tug as a reward? Or allow the dog to bark at and push the handler for more engagement?


Ok, so its drive too. I can understand that, particularly tug work and barking which pet-oriented training would suppress. 



Liesje said:


> I have done some puppy and intermediate obedience classes with my two dogs that now have SchH titles, but I went to a place with a trainer that understood my goals for IPO and how I intended to train, so there wasn't any conflict. ...


Interesting. In which ways do you think the training was adjusted to prevent these conflicts?

I'm interested in this topic because I still haven't decided whether I want to do IPO. I would like to keep my options open at this point and not go down paths that would be hard to correct later. I'm not training with PetSmart by the way. Not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

IMO a Petsmart class will only hurt you. The foundation of the dog is the most important. It takes a lot longer to re-train something correctly. With competition obedience, it's not just about the dog downing for instance, it's about how the dog down's. It's not that the dog goes through the motions, but how the dog goes through the motions.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> IMO a Petsmart class will only hurt you. The foundation of the dog is the most important. It takes a lot longer to re-train something correctly. With competition obedience, it's not just about the dog downing for instance, it's about how the dog down's. It's not that the dog goes through the motions, but how the dog goes through the motions.


Where do I learn about ipo foundation


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Of course it depends on the knowledge of the handler. If handler knows what they're doing, they will forgo certain exercises and just do such a class for 'socialization'. 
But how many IPO handlers would waste the time and $ doing a pet class unless there were no clubs around? There are many things we do with young dogs early on, which help in the foundation. Restrained recalls, pivoting, rear end awareness, and focus! How many pet classes focus on focus?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

lalachka said:


> Where do I learn about ipo foundation



At an IPO club.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lalachka said:


> Where do I learn about ipo foundation


at an IPO club


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes, at an IPO club. As Jane said there is a lot more to raising a puppy for sport/work than meets the eye. There are some decent books and videos out there that help you understand, but nothing is a substitute for a knowledgeable trainer/competitor.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My dogs do pretty well in IPO, and every time I walk them into a petsmart the trainers there are always offering me advice on training and classes. Mostly because my dogs are pushy and actively seeking engagement and have drive, and a petsmart class won't teach you how to work your dog that way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL Alexis.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I work as a trainer at Petco, I know that they are different, that being said, every store will be different, every trainer different with different styles you are basically at the mercy of the the experience (or lack of) that the trainer at your local store happens to have (or not have). Most petsmart/Petco trainers won't even know what IPO is. The truth is the company doesn't invest enough money in making sure there trainers are well rounded, every now and then you will get a trainer that is special, and invested his or her own free time in learning and gathering experience but that won't be often. 

Pet obedience calms dogs, it kills drive, you would want the dogs calm, submissive state, no barking or attitude like you want in IPO. 

They focus heavily on hand signals, really don't cover verbal commands at all (NO hand signals in IPO) so this may be tough to transition. 

For the most part, sloppy crooked sits/heels are "ok" in the trainers eye so you will be starting from incorrect position. I hate to say all of these things because it is exactly what I strive NOT to be....but unless your coming to my store I have no clue what you would get...go some place else


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> LOL Alexis.


Hey, they're sweet though! Mildly out on control, but sweet! They know fuss and other Schutzhund things. Pet manners, not so much LOL


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GatorDog said:


> Hey, they're sweet though! Mildly out on control, but sweet! They know fuss and other Schutzhund things. Pet manners, not so much LOL


and certain body parts are always in the way....:help:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

She's borrowing my welding son for steel plated armor


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mister C said:


> In which ways do you think the training was adjusted to prevent these conflicts?


Some specific things I did different in our puppy and intermediate (CGC level) classes:


using toy rewards instead of treats in some instances
requiring more speed and precision in basic positions/commands even with my puppies (train it to the level you want it from the beginning)
I didn't train the word "stay", I expect my dogs to hold a position until released or commanded otherwise
I train the CGC exercise where you leave your dog with someone else as a down and expect my dog to stay down even though the test doesn't require it (again the stay is built in)
with one of my puppies I often sat out the end of class since even with a high drive dog a 60+ minute class was too long for doing repetitive obedience
obviously a lot of my command words are different
Interestingly, I found that my rate of reward delivery was always significantly more than the "pet" type people, even in classes with trainers that are more "positive". I don't get a puppy to show a drivey, focused, correctly positioned heel by dragging him around on a leash and by the time a treat is given the dog is already out of position and not focused. I get that by starting him in basic position and click/treat every 1-2 seconds at first. That sort of thing. My dogs always ate through their treats before class finished, but like I said I often stopped early and just watched/listened as I always prefer to stop while the dog is in drive and being successful, not work the dog until he's going flat and then quit.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I am blaming all my new found need to read up on working dogs and dog psychology on the lot of you wonderful people. 

All in all, I would think that you would have to go and see the trainer/talk with them to gauge what you are dealing with and what they know. Most PetsMart and PetCo trainers that I have run into would not really understand what IPO was. They potentially wouldn't even know some of the bigger names in the world of competitive dog training either. 

I had one trainer literally walk one of his client's dogs into my dog. We'd been in the same place for easily over five minutes (looking at cookies, but more watching him not get the point across to a super excited cavalier - which is a breed I adore). Myles hadn't moved. Lucky that guy and the little dog that Myles is a very neutral and calm boy.

On the flip side, I was debating between treat selections again when a trainer came near and paused, asking me and another lady down an aisle if it was okay for her to use us and our dogs (who were all just calmly standing/sitting near us) for a little of their training session. She had a draathar looking mix who she was working on leash reactivity with. The dog wanted badly to meet others, but she had to learn to sit politely and be calm. She explained to the client why she chose our dogs to pause near and when she left, she went behind the banfield counter that was behind me, so the dog would not have to pass directly near either of us.

Personally I wouldn't go to a PetsMart class. However I am a firm believer in seeing for yourself before making a decision and it is your pet.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

It'll come down to the fact that it will be very difficult to find a trainer at a Petsmart/Petco that will understand how to foster the behaviors that you need for sport. The companies are very lax in who they hire for trainers. I've worked alongside a wonderful woman who previously was part of a K9 unit. I have also worked alongside a man who thought that teaching a dog to drop a toy meant that you yanked the toy out of their mouth as hard as possible while screaming for them to "drop it". There isn't a lot of quality control. 

And even if you find a good trainer in a retail store, we are very restricted in what we can teach and the way we can teach it. Our six week courses have a curriculum we have to stick to every single week as well as approved and unapproved methods of teaching things. At home, I start heel work with rear end awareness exercises. At the store, I can't teach them. I have to teach this really weird circle/spin move the dog does to go into heel position. I hate it, but I can be fired if my manager sees I am not teaching it in the "approved" manner. So I can say that many behaviors WILL NOT be appropriately taught for competition. Plus, as others have said, the trainers are almost universally taught that we don't want that excited drive for training. We want the dog to be interested, but for instance the drive that my dog leaks when wanting to run the agility course, bouncing and air snapping, would be entirely squashed in a retail obedience class. Even though it's something I encourage in my own dog when we are working.

A Petsmart can be good for simple basic obedience/socialization, but understand that it will not be a base for any kind of IPO activity. And you'll also want to work with a club anyways because you need to do drive building exercises which are completely off limits in the store, even if you manage to find a trainer who knows what they are doing.


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## daviddrena (Dec 25, 2006)

What about proper socialization around other dogs? I was under the impression that in a club they keep their dogs caged up until time to work. Please guys don't tear my head off I really don't know, just asking!


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

daviddrena said:


> What about proper socialization around other dogs? I was under the impression that in a club they keep their dogs caged up until time to work. Please guys don't tear my head off I really don't know, just asking!


It can definitely be a good socialization opportunity. Controlled environment where you get an opportunity to work on behavior around other dogs. Just don't go into it thinking it will be a good base for IPO. And definitely do some research on the actual trainers in the store and stop by and actually observe a class taught by the trainer you are thinking about working with. Like I said before, there isn't much in the way of quality control, so there are some very good trainers and some very bad trainers.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

My limited schutzhund experience was that they work/motivate the dogs very differently than regular pet obedience trainers.

They liked the puppies to be a bit pushy, where in puppy class, that was something we 'needed to work on' and discourage.

I think from a socializing standpoint it can be good, but I found the IPO training was MUCH different than pet training.

ETA: I did do a puppy class (not at petsmart) and I did find it beneficial. But I knew a little about IPO, and so I did things a bit differently. I used the german commands, I did not teach a down from a sitting position ever, but from a stand etc.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Alexis, I have the same experience. If I run into the trainer working the counter or the shelves, they almost can't help but evaluate the dog...usually by making a fist and telling my dog to sit. 

Perhaps that is just something ingrained in their heads, or they are using it as a selling technique..."Oh my gosh, how did you get my dog to sit like that...well, take the classes."

Last time this happened the store was quiet enough that I told the chap, no hand signals. We are training for schutzhund. He asked where we trained and I invited him to come watch a session and learn more about it. It might be good for him to see the difference.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks for all these helpful responses. I appreciate it.



mycobraracr said:


> IMO a Petsmart class will only hurt you. The foundation of the dog is the most important. It takes a lot longer to re-train something correctly. With competition obedience, it's not just about the dog downing for instance, it's about how the dog down's. It's not that the dog goes through the motions, but how the dog goes through the motions.


Good points.



onyx'girl said:


> There are many things we do with young dogs early on, which help in the foundation. Restrained recalls, pivoting, rear end awareness, and focus! How many pet classes focus on focus?


I'm doing all of that stuff except "pivoting". Not sure what you mean by that term. My 8 week puppy class covered all these topics and we have been working on them daily.



Liz&Anna said:


> I work as a trainer at Petco ...
> 
> Pet obedience calms dogs, it kills drive, you would want the dogs calm, submissive state, no barking or attitude like you want in IPO.
> 
> ...


Very helpful. Seems like we are doing ok here too. By the way, I use verbal commands and hand signals. Again, keeping my options open such as a UD title eventually where hand signals are the only way to communicate with the dog. As far as transition, I am hoping that by using both hand/verbal that I can use only one of them eventually and the dog will respond.




Liesje said:


> Some specific things I did different in our puppy and intermediate (CGC level) classes:
> 
> 
> using toy rewards instead of treats in some instances
> ...


Excellent! We are transitioning to using toy rewards. I also never down him after a sit and the stay is implied. Frankly, I had started using a Stay command by my trainer corrected me and I no longer use it. Speed and precision are things we are constantly working on. Also, I learned early on to reward frequently and stop before he goes flat and while he is still in drive and doing well.



Pax8 said:


> ... We want the dog to be interested, but for instance the drive that my dog leaks when wanting to run the agility course, bouncing and air snapping, would be entirely squashed in a retail obedience class. Even though it's something I encourage in my own dog when we are working.



Also working on drive building exercises. He now thrashes his tugs pretty hard now and pushes his tug toy into my leg forcefully. I've been bitten a couple of times accidentally doing this--not his fault, just very amped up and I wasn't as careful as I should have been with my hand position on the tug. No big deal and I wear the scars with pride.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

daviddrena said:


> What about proper socialization around other dogs? I was under the impression that in a club they keep their dogs caged up until time to work. Please guys don't tear my head off I really don't know, just asking!


if want good socialization with dogs you may want to look into a day camp place. they'll get to play all day with dogs under supervision. my wife works at one and has been bringing our dogs since little puppies. some are better than others so do research. people run shotty places advertised on CL. my wife's place doesn't take pitbulls or pit mixes. all dogs have to be up to date on basic vaccines and all dogs have to have an interview to make sure they are good or at least not aggressive with other dogs. also your dog would have to be with the small dogs until about 4 months. so you don't have to worry about rough play from big dogs, yet.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

daviddrena said:


> What about proper socialization around other dogs? I was under the impression that in a club they keep their dogs caged up until time to work. Please guys don't tear my head off I really don't know, just asking!




Socialization or exposure? Dogs do not need to play with each other. They need to learn to work around each other. They need to be exposed to as many thing as possible. You can take your puppy to Petsmart without being in a class. Yes a lot of clubs work one at a time. My group has everybody on the field doing obedience at once. More like from 9-11 is obedience time, get your dog and come on and off the field as you wish. We will also have people on the field doing obedience while another is doing protection. My old group was very similar.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

For IPO, the ideal response to other dogs is no response. The dog should be neutral toward them. Even for the Bh, the dog will need to hold a long down off lead while another dog does an obedience routine on the same field.

The pup needs to pay attention to the handler, not the other dogs. The handler is the source of all good things in life.

This is why training with a club is helpful. The pup gets exposure to other dogs in a controlled environment, not being pounced on by someone's Fluffy.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm so glad I don't shop at a chain store with trainers. I can only imagine what they would say.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

How can I learn about IPO foundation if I don't have access to an IPO club? I think the closest one to me is 3+ hours away.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I let my wife take my dog to puppy classes while at the same time I was doing IPO with him. It was not for the dog though, it was for her. She wanted to do it and she had fun and her and the dog bonded through it. It was good for her confidence in dealing with him. The class was a piece of cake for the dog and I really don't think it hurt him.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

McWeagle said:


> How can I learn about IPO foundation if I don't have access to an IPO club? I think the closest one to me is 3+ hours away.


Fenzi Academy would be a good second choice. I took IPO foundations with Patton with Shade.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

McWeagle said:


> How can I learn about IPO foundation if I don't have access to an IPO club? I think the closest one to me is 3+ hours away.


 The one I went to was 2-1/2 hours away.

You can watch some vids online too, maybe some here can recommend some good ones.

It's just little things that if they learn it sloppy you have to go back and fix. Like where I went to puppy class, they taught the down to down from a sit position, in IPO you want them to drop straight down. 

If you want to do IPO, you're going to need to find a club anyway, so may as well start out the way they want.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Fenzi Academy would be a good second choice. I took IPO foundations with Patton with Shade.


That's an interesting idea! I took most of the courses for my degree online (seriously, I live in the middle of nowhere!) so why not take IPO courses online too? And I don't mind driving out to a club every couple of weeks, but to do it every week would be too much. Probably 8 hours in a car every weekend is too much for me.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

blackshep said:


> You can watch some vids online too, maybe some here can recommend some good ones.
> 
> It's just little things that if they learn it sloppy you have to go back and fix. Like where I went to puppy class, they taught the down to down from a sit position, in IPO you want them to drop straight down.
> 
> If you want to do IPO, you're going to need to find a club anyway, so may as well start out the way they want.


 I'll start a thread about vids and online courses, I think. And, as far as I know, I have 2 options for clubs. Both about 3.5 hours away but in totally opposite directions. Hopefully I like 1 of them!


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## daviddrena (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes McWeagle, It seems like there would be someone who hadn't used a club to properly train their dog for IPO...Someone!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

daviddrena said:


> Yes McWeagle, It seems like there would be someone who hadn't used a club to properly train their dog for IPO...Someone!


Lol, I agree with Jane about retraining being tough, but I stumbled into IPO with my Rott who was 4. We went from showing and AKC obedience to IPO. We never passed protection, but we never failed obedience. I did even worse stuff then Petsmart. I took him to one of those stupid Serius puppy messes.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

daviddrena said:


> Yes McWeagle, It seems like there would be someone who hadn't used a club to properly train their dog for IPO...Someone!



I am not a member of a club and am training for IPO. But, I do work individually with the helper from the sorta-nearby club. The club just never responded to my emails about getting my pup tested (and I didn't even mention that she was a showline at the time!). I go once a week or every other week and do a lot of work on my own. I actually like getting the individual attention with two dogs and I can be more consistent with my days off. But I still think I would enjoy more of a group atmosphere at times.

As for the other question - paisley didn't start IPO stuff til she was almost a year. The pup I started early with IPO because I was already taking Paisley to training. I did take the pup to a more local puppy class but did do things a bit different (as others have stated) and the instructor was fine with that (I already knew the instructor because I had taken Nosework with Paisley from her).


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