# PD reject. A Slew of issues to correct!



## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

I just took on a new mid-day dog walking client. He is an intact 18 month old Black GSD male. He has had no real formal training other than what he briefly received with the PD that was evaluating him for bite work. 
He didn't make the cut. So they let my client adopt him. Unfortunately, he and his girlfriend are NOT at all calm-assertive. They are calm-passive. Duke is allowed to jump up on, mouth, bump, pull and generally act rudely to humans. He is destructive when left home alone, digs holes to China in the yard, barks like a nut job at passersby when he is outside and lacks any true structure. From minute one, I have made it clear that these behaviors do not fly with me. I have even rolled him during our structured walks.
He is absolutely the sweetest, most handsome, dreamy dog I have ever met. But he stinks on his walks. He pulls, pulls, pulls. The Halti is a joke with him. I spend the entire walk with the leash pulled in firmly. He does let up a bit now and then. I try to give him some slack but sheesh, he is so strong! And forget if he sees a darned utility pole. He tries to yank me to it.
I am well aware of all what is going on during the walks, we aren't taking leisurely strolls here. Its work!
I am getting him on an Easy Walk harness this week and a Ruff Wear backpack is on order. I am adamantly AGAINST any choke chains or pinch collars. The chokes can damage the trachea and the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way.
So, I'm looking for advice and guidance to help this dog stay out of the shelter and get the training he needs to join the mid-day dog pack for our excursions!
I think once he is altered and gets the basics down, he can learn further behaviors from the pack. They really do learn from and teach each other.

Thanks!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

ashleec73 said:


> I have even rolled him during our structured walks.


phew, this should be fun.....

I can see why he didn't make the cut at the PD. No dog with what it takes to be a working K9 is going to let a dog walker alpha roll him in the street.



ashleec73 said:


> pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks.


LOL


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ashleec73 said:


> ...and the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way.


Useless to you perhaps, but a lifesaver here. 

As far as developing a "tolerance," sure, the dog will learn to ignore the pressure if allowed to continually pull while on prong, but that isn't how the prong is to be used. The point of the prong is to deliver the correction, not to let them pull against it. 

I also worry about trachea damage, which is exactly why I learned to use the prong. If the prong is fitted properly, it isn't on the trachea.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

First, stop with the alpha rolling. All you're accomplishing with that is you're confusing the dog. It's a stupid and outdated training method.

Second, you're completely wrong about prongs. They are very useful tools if used correctly and they can work great with GSD's.

Now on this specific dog... It sounds like a dog in serious need of training and an outlet other than a walk (or heavy duty walks). He's digging and pulling and causing mayhem because he probably has a lot of steam to blow off. He's like a shaken up carbonated drink ready to burst.

Get this dog in some training classes... Maybe something like agility once he learns his manners. He needs to be worked physically and mentally.

Also what kind of off leash time is this dig getting and how much everyday?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> and lacks any true structure


While it may be sure that this dog lacks structure, what he primarily lacks are physical and mental exercise. He's not getting the stimulation that he needs. That's why he's digging to China in the yard. And he's not getting the physical exercise he needs, that's why he's pulling you down the road like there's no tomorrow.

I don't think that these are issues you're going to be able to address as a once-a-day dog walker. This dog needs owners who are serious about meeting his needs - getting him off-leash exercise daily as well as training. They need to get into a class to learn how to work with this dog so they can do that sort of training on a daily basis. A good class will also teach them about the importance of structure at home.



> I have even rolled him during our structured walks.


The Alpha Roll is an outdated technique and a really easy way to see yourself getting bitten in the face. I bet your clients are also not paying you to alpha roll their dog or try out various training methods on him - they just want you to walk him, right? Same with the pack ... make sure that your dog owners are on board with this. You should not just buy a pack and throw it on the dog with weight in it for walks - this needs to be approved by the owners. They may also want to seek their veterinarian's approval to ensure the dog is physically sound to carry weight. That is way, way overstepping your bounds as a dog walker.



> the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way.


It sounds like you don't really know how to fit and use a prong collar correctly. They should be sitting high up on the neck, behind the dog's ears. There is no reason at all why a properly fitted prong collar doesn't work on a German Shepherd - the fur does not inhibit it from working and the "strength" of the neck is irrelevant when the collar is fitted where it belongs.

I also think that using a head halter on a dog like this is extremely dangerous, especially if he lunges or tries to forge ahead to utility poles like you have described. The chances of this injuring his neck are much greater than the chances of him getting injured by a prong collar or a properly fitted and used choke.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> ....Get this dog in some training classes... Maybe something like agility once he learns his manners. He needs to be worked physically and mentally.
> 
> Also what kind of off leash time is this dig getting and how much everyday?


My take is this is her customer's dog and she's the walker.

Personally, if the owners won't get this dog into classes AND work the obvious physical outlet needs, I'd refuse this customer. The dog won't magically change without working off that energy better, without the training it apparently needs, (going by your description of behavior) and by getting an EasyWalk and a backpack. Certainly not by rolling him. You may end up bit and you may unknowingly be causing psychological harm that'll require even *more* training to correct. I mean, you're "rolling" the dog for pulling? Really? (correct me if I'm wrong, please)

Your EasyWalk is not going to fix what appears to be a multi-leveled problem. This needs to go back to the owners and *they* have work to do. You're not a trainer, you're a walker and you can't just "fix" this with an EasyWalk and backpack. Altering him will not magically fix the pulling issues, either. The "basics," as you say, must be taught and they're not being addressed at all. (just going by your post.) 

And who knows what adding him to a *pack* of dogs may get. Is he DA? You could end up with a major MESS!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Watch much Cesar?

Were you hired as a trainer or a dog walker? This dog needs a trainer, one who is experienced with GSDs and working lines would be a bonus. If you are not a trainer experienced with these issues, then the owner's need to be doing the work in conjunction with the trainer. Absolutely you need to adjust your services to work with whatever plan the trainer comes up with, but there needs to be a plan. 
A tired dog is NOT a good dog, it's just a tired dog who is still looking for a mental outlet. Hopefully one in which the owner's participate and enjoy doing. 
Alpha rolling a male GSD is a good way to get face bit, so I'd rethink that first and foremost. Especially if the owner's haven't hired you as a trainer, you are definitely walking a tightrope.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

OK, so looks like I have a bit to learn on prong collars. I will give it a try at some point. In the past, when using them, I have had dogs that just pulled after a few months. But, perhaps I need to revisit this technique. 

I alpha roll dogs quite a bit and I am wondering how this technique confuses a dog. I personally find it a great tool for getting dogs to respond to touch. Dogs that I have rolled in the past now simply respond to a touch on the shoulder or hips. I use it as the last result and usually once is all it takes. I'm not a dog trainer by trade, but for the past 12 years I have had a lot of success in making dogs great pack members by treating them with respect, love and giving them respectful discipline as needed. I hate these trainers that feel the need to impose some mach BS onto the dogs. I realize that the GSD is a working breed and that they need to feel like they have a job and a purpose. I, personally, own a Lab and an Akita/Aussie mix. I have worked with breeds from Pitts, Danes, Chows, GSDs, Pointers, Am. Bulldogs to the annoying little ankle biters like Chihuahuas, Poms and Bichons. I have a wonderful pack of dogs with a great track record of helping new pack members learn the rules and how to feel confident and purposeful. My hopes for Duke is to get him more tolerable on leash, learn his basic manners and join our pack and take part in our treks thru the woods, beach trips and field trips. 
I think I will get in touch with an obedience trainer to back me up on the need for this dog to get his needs addressed ASAP.
He is not a complete lost cause. He's only 18 months old. I've actually worked with worse dogs. Really. Oh, I forgot to mention....he is about 20-25 lbs overweight. So.....yeah.....this dog needs an outlet, structure and canine companionship. 
He was adopted by owners who mean well but are completely clueless on the needs of a dog, let alone a GSD.
I just worry that I am his only hope for help. That this dog will never see a trainer, will eventually bite someone seriously and get PTS. 
So I am looking for advice on leash reactivity, basic manners and some GSD-specific activities I can do to help this dog.

Thanks!


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

Watch much Cesar?
Um, kind of a condescending question, don't you think? No, I do not watch him on a regular basis, but he has some valid training tips and his approach is better than most so-called trainers with their machisimo over-powering "training". I try to offer the dogs respect and love while I am working with them. I am not some macho alpha bitch trying to overpower a "lowly" animal.

Were you hired as a trainer or a dog walker? Both.

Absolutely you need to adjust your services to work with whatever plan the trainer comes up with, but there needs to be a plan. 
I have done this MANY times in the past. Sometimes the trainer offers some LOVELY choke chain tips. I won't even use these in my services.

A tired dog is NOT a good dog, it's just a tired dog who is still looking for a mental outlet. I have to disagree on this one. My entire purpose is to wear out my clients dogs while they are at work. Granted, I am sure my constant interaction with them helps with their training, or lack thereof. Many times, if it weren't for me, these dogs wouldn't even know recall or leave it or stay....seriously.
Alpha rolling a male GSD is a good way to get face bit. 
Never happened. I know how to properly roll a dog. I have actually trained people on how to NOT get bitten when breaking up dog fights at the park. I'm not some housewife hack who likes to walk the doggies. I started as a vet assistant, then a dog walker and once owned the first true doggy daycare in Rhode Island. Actually, my guidelines and policies are now used by the state DEM for future doggy daycares. I know pack dynamics, pack structure and how to deal with unstable dogs in a pack.

So I am getting a lot of negative comments on what I did wrong but not ONE solid piece of advice on what to do with a leash-reactive dog.

Anyone? Seems like a simple enough issue that trainers should be well-versed in. This is why I am on this forum for advice. Whats your experience with leash-reactive GSDs? What techniques have you used with dogs like this? What works, what doesn't? 

but seriously....read the replies you have all given me.....
I want to help this dog stay out of a shelter. or worse, a vicious dog hearing. These owners are not the type to jump over hurdles for their dog. I am his only hope. I have a huge weakness for the GSD. I think if this were any other breed, I'd feel less inclined to try so hard.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

I think I left out a major detail on the alpha roll I used ONCE on him...we were walking on leash, working on him sitting each time I stop. He saw a boxer across the street and I started to get him walking again and he went bezerk. I did not pull on the Halti ( I am well aware of the possibility of injury with these things-hence the reason I want to get him on the Easy Walk). This was only my 2nd time walking him. I wasn't truly sure what his intentions were or if he had the propensity to attack. I tried to get him to heel and even held his collar on the side to pull him towards me, not pulling the back of the collar further encouraging an aggressive state to escalate. THIS IS WHY I ROLLED HIM. It was a last resort and for the safety of the boxer, its owner and me. 
Again, I was a vet assistant. I know how to avoid the teeth. Part of my job was to avoid being bitten and protect the vet from being bitten.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

My take is this is her customer's dog and she's the walker.
Yes, I am the walker. 

Personally, if the owners won't get this dog into classes AND work the obvious physical outlet needs, I'd refuse this customer. I met this guy 3 months ago, a friend of his had a GSD that bit someone and he got sued...this is what drove him to finally call me back...fear of his dog getting to that point. So I can tell you that he isn't exactly rushing out to find a trainer  The dog won't magically change without working off that energy better, what kinds of activities do you recommend other than walks? without the training it apparently needs, (going by your description of behavior) and by getting an EasyWalk and a backpack. Certainly not by rolling him. You may end up bit and you may unknowingly be causing psychological harm that'll require even *more* training to correct. I mean, you're "rolling" the dog for pulling? No, I'm not, actually. I rolled him for trying to break away to get at a Boxer Really? (correct me if I'm wrong, please)

Your EasyWalk is not going to fix what appears to be a multi-leveled problem. This needs to go back to the owners and *they* have work to do. You're not a trainer, you're a walker and you can't just "fix" this with an EasyWalk and backpack. Altering him will not magically fix the pulling issues, either.I think I know this. The altering is to reduce hormone-induced territorialism and aggression. I am fully aware that neutering a dog doesn't calm them down. The "basics," as you say, must be taught and they're not being addressed at all. (just going by your post.) Very true. He really only knows sit, because I taught him this. We are working on this during the walks, I stop, he sits. He wants to enter the gate, he sits. He wants water, he sits. I am trying to use the Nothing In Life Is Free technique. Its worked so far with many other dogs I work with.

And who knows what adding him to a *pack* of dogs may get. Is he DA? What is DA?  You could end up with a major MESS!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you discussed any of this with the owner? I have to say...if you alpha rolled my dog, I'd clock you. He went berserk as in aggressive berserk or as in I'm a goofy male and I don't have to listen? Does he go berserk at other dogs?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

ashleec73 said:


> What is DA?


Dog aggressive. Forum shorthand


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

So I can tell you that he isn't exactly rushing out to find a trainer 

Ugh, well that's what he SHOULD be doing!!!!!!!!!! Or at least a class. This owner apparently isn't providing ANY energy outlet other than the walks he's hired you to do. That's criminal in my thinking. These dogs are not happy little lap dogs, happy with a little walk once a day!? 

what kinds of activities do you recommend other than walks? 

Oh goodness, so many things. I do a great deal of offleash hikes and such, but if you can't trust this dog, that probably is not the way to go... but! there are enclosed soccer fields, baseball fields, huge open fields, anything to just let this dude RUN. Does he like balls, frisbee? This is going beyond the realm of what you've been hired for, to take this dog to work him in this way, but it certainly sounds like what he's needing! To combine that with mental work (training) would perhaps bring this dog around and correct the other things mentioned before. Seriously, it sounds like a full time job to get this guy where he needs to be and you can't do it alone. The owners have a big plate to step up to, and from what you say, they won't do that. It's a lose-lose for this dog, IMHO.

No, I'm not, actually. I rolled him for trying to break away to get at a Boxer Really? (correct me if I'm wrong, please)

Try the LAT game instead.

I am trying to use the Nothing In Life Is Free technique. Its worked so far with many other dogs I work with.

NILIF is fantastic, but how far can you get if the owners are not on board with that as well?

What is DA? 

Sorry, an acronym for Dog Aggressive. Your post about him breaking away to "get" the boxer sort of suggests he may be DA. It makes sense, considering he's coming from lazy owners who have likely not socialized him. Are you quite SURE you want to put a DA dog in your walking pack??


Additionally, your last post mentioned leash reactivity, yet I never heard anything prior to suggest that. Simply that the dog was pulling. 

Your initial post made you sound as though you are the walker, only the walker, and not responsible for training. Then your last post said you are both the trainer and the walker. No offense here! but you stated that the owners do NADA, NOTHING for training, exercise, etc.. so why wouldn't your first instinct, as hired trainer, be to advise they MUST ramp that up? They MUST step up here? I don't care if they're calm-aggressive, assertive or whatever that terminology was, (which is Cesar's terminology, which is why you received that comment,) they're obviously FAILING at their duty with this dog and YOU and YOU alone cannot "fix" this with a daily walk!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You state: "I am not some macho alpha bitch trying to overpower a "lowly" animal," yet you fully endorse rolling the dog? What do you suppose the alpha roll IS? I have rolled my older two dogs a couple of times in their lives. I think twice each dog. It was done over what I considered a totally unacceptable behavior -- such as growling at me when told to drop a chewie... I can't remember the circumstance, it just happened. It needed to happen. I've never had to do it again. But, these are MY dogs. Personally I'd be beyond pissed off if anyone else rolled my dogs. To ME, rolling a dog is a very BIG FRIKKIN DEAL and ONLY done when there is a true issue with the dog doubting the pack leader's position. It is not done simply because a dog is pulling too hard. (Not to put words in your mouth here, but you stated you've done it a lot and it makes me wonder what offenses led you to do so.)

And finally, please do learn more about prongs. They are not the devil. They are wonderful training devices when used and fitted *properly.*


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Ashlee, It is obvious that you really care about your clients dogs. It must be very frustrating to try so hard to help the dogs, while the owners do little or nothing. Yes, you very well may be saving the lives of these dogs - especially the GSD.

Perhaps you can do a search to find specifics on leash and dog aggression. There are threads about EVERYTHING here. They may be more helpful, than the help you have gotten so far. I wish I had something helpful to offer. I can only say that when my dog aggressive GSD was younger, I did use a prong on her. 

Best of luck with your clients' dog and thank you for trying to help him. He certainly deserves a chance.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok, so things are a bit more clear. First off, do you know what and how much work was done by the PD? Not that it will make a big difference, but many LEO trainers tend to encourage the leash reactivity. Not intentionally, mind you, but you may be dealing with some of it as very learned and subliminally rewarded. 
As you can tell, most around here have a very adverse reaction to any mention of alpha rolling a dog. Seriously, I too was a vet assistant for 9 years and was VERY good at restraining dogs for procedures and the like, but that is very different then physically challenging a working line GSD in drive. While I may know how to do it, I don't think it would even enter my mind as an option anymore. The situation you described may have warranted it, but give that dog another 6 months and it may have had a very different outcome. You are right that you need other options. 
NILIF is a good start, but are the owner's also on board? It will work much better if it becomes a way of life at this point, at home and with you. 
If this were a dog that came to us, the first thing we would work on would be a reliable down along with a bullet proof bite/out command. 
A GSD who has been let get to 18mos with no manners (from what it sounds like you've described) will be a long term project. GSDs are freaky smart sometimes, but this is a double edged sword sometimes. When they teach themselves it,(via no training that is) it is a bit of work to say the least to unteach them. 


Oh, and I still stand by my original statement that a tired dog isn't a a good dog. Especially a GSD. But if the dogs in your pack are learning a recall, or stay (which we NEVER use, but that's another story) then you aren't just tiring them out. Big difference. You'd be surprised at how many people call us and ask if we have a treadmill they can put their dogs on, so they will be good dogs, sheesh. 

Oh, and if you do watch any Cesar, DO NOT use that hissing sound he uses on this dog. It is a common sound used by helpers in bitework to get the dog on the alert. I had never watched any Cesar and had a lady with a Golden try to use that on my then 11yo Beauceron for some odd reason. Of course my girl totally came unglued when this lady started hissing at her LOL. Luckily she had a very reliable down and out command. 

Have you looked into BAT?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

What is BAT?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Welcome to Dogwise.com


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Thank you.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hi and welcome. Thanks for helping this dog. I do agree with previous posters that you absolutely must get the owners on board with NILIF, healthy (and appropriate amounts of) food and regular exercise and training. If they don't actively participate then all your work is going to be undone every time he goes home. 

For a gsd I would recommend a Sense-ation over an Easy Walk. The Sense-ation fits the gsd body better and the harness itself is better made. I have worked with a dog reactive dog on a Sense-ation and also worked with an extreme puller. In both cases it was a very helpful tool. I would clip onto the collar too, just to give you a little more control. 

I first learned to train using the alpha roll (from the good old Monks of New Skete) but ditched it a long time ago. There are much more effective ways to redirect a dog and it truly can be dangerous to you and to your relationship with a dog. If you are seriously afraid of a fight then condition him to a muzzle and use it until he is more trustworthy around other dogs. 

There are lots of techniques for dealing with DA but it seems like people are having a lot of success with BAT. 

BAT website: Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

ashleec73 said:


> OK, so looks like I have a bit to learn on prong collars. I will give it a try at some point. In the past, when using them, I have had dogs that just pulled after a few months. But, perhaps I need to revisit this technique. Thanks!


Make sure you're putting it on and using it correctly before just winging it.

Leerburg | How to fit a Prong Collar


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08: I only alpha roll dogs that are in an aggressive state. This particular dog was seriously trying to get out of the Halti to get across the street at a Boxer. He was extremely vocal, bucking, pulling away from me to get to the boxer. It was the last resort. When I have rolled dogs in the past it is for fighting at the park with dogs that are not part of the pack. I can't always control who shows up. And we don't go to the park as much due to this. Honestly, I have a better relationship with my clients dogs than they do. Duke was not being a dumb ass teenager, he was being an outright jerk. I am very understanding and tolerant of the dogs in my care. I know that dogs are dogs not little humans in fur coats....sheesh.

chelle: I've only taken Duke out 3 times. This is all I have so far. The owners really doesn't know the extent of his past training. Very frustrating. He apparently goes to the enclosed dog park with the owners OCCASIONALLY! And I guess he's displaying some not-so-great behavior, but I have never been there to observe this. I don't think he's DA but I do think he might have problems with greeting behaviors. I see this alot with dog with poor socialization skills. Its like they have no idea how to greet another dog and accept another dog checking him out so he gets anxious. Still a ways to go here though. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I think with this dog, I might rethink the roll. I just need a better technique to get a dog like him under control when they are in a state of aggression...or whatever it might be. Control of the dog is my top priority. I don't need a lawsuit for a dog bite. In Rhode Island the handler is liable, not the owner. I am well aware of this and always try to ensure the safety of the public, the dog and myself at all times. I will, however, get Duke on a pincher. With his extreme pulling, I think this will be better than an annoying Halti.

Lucy Dog: Thanks for the link. I will definitely check it out!

bosron: I really need to see how far Duke got in his PD training before they realized he wouldn't bite. And I can clearly see your point on him being allowed to be a jerk on leash, even if it wasn't intentional. I guess that kind of goes with the territory for a working GSD, right? Oh and I never use that hissing sound. I don't get loud and when I do its a HEY! but when I am reminding them of undesirable behavior, I tend to say AY! or touch them on the shoulder or hips. Dogs in my care are usually at play, wrestling, running, chasing or walking by my side. I try to work on their recall. Also the stay command for the times when the Envoy tailgate is opened, they won't jump out and have a free-for-all. Safety first!


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## Rosie (Oct 22, 2007)

I have a GSD that gets all wound up when she is with me. She is fine at doggy day care and when they walk her. I admit I did all the wrong stuff when I got her at 1 1/2 yrs old but we are still working on fixing everything. I use a harness that restricts her shoulders to help for pulling, use the method where you stop totally until they settle, use the 'tap' on your hand so they come back instead of pulling, etc. None of it works if she sees a deer, but I can get her past another dog if it ignores us and she is in 'training' mode instead of leisurely walk. Pinch collar works pretty well too, but I can use the harness like a suitcase handle to hold her back easier. Sometimes she braces her back feet against my feet though and makes it a little harder. Her training has worked for the day care people though, so that is important.
To get her mind going, we find an unused playground and go over all the obstacles. I found this by accident and it led us to agility, but you can't do that so well as a dog-walker so use playground equipment. She also 'board walk's the dividers in the parking lot on her own. You could do the 'name game' with him, or walk like you are drunk so he has to pay attention to where you are going, not where he wants to go. 
If we meet a dog I am not sure of I turn around and go somewhere else so she doesn't have to get close to it.
Hope it turns out for you and he gets the training he needs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ashleec73 said:


> I know that dogs are dogs not little humans in fur coats....sheesh.


I stand corrected. Roll away. 

However, I still would like to know if you have discussed any of this with the owners. Per your own website, there is nothing regarding training or correction methods.

Menu of Services

LAT works for my dog reactive dog. But I don't see how you can succeed in that if you don't have the owners on board to train as well.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Hi and welcome. Thanks for helping this dog. I do agree with previous posters that you absolutely must get the owners on board with NILIF, healthy (and appropriate amounts of) food and regular exercise and training. If they don't actively participate then all your work is going to be undone every time he goes home.
> 
> For a gsd I would recommend a Sense-ation over an Easy Walk. The Sense-ation fits the gsd body better and the harness itself is better made. I have worked with a dog reactive dog on a Sense-ation and also worked with an extreme puller. In both cases it was a very helpful tool. I would clip onto the collar too, just to give you a little more control.
> 
> ...


I will definitely look into the BAT site. I want to have as much new info as possible to help this dog. I am very vocal about any observations I have to the owner. I will definitely try to get them on board with the NILIF training as well as getting him more exercise while he is with them. I think I will need a local resource for a trainer that can help Duke with his specific issues. I think someone on this thread mentioned someone in MA. Lots of research to do! But to be honest, I love this part of my job. THIS is why I work with dogs. So many learning opportunities. 
I think Duke will be a great pack dog in the future, but he has some issues to address before that. I just really want to help this beautiful dog. I will get some pics of him this week and post. You will all see how gorgeous he is....and how FAT he is...Oy Vey!


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I stand corrected. Roll away.
> 
> However, I still would like to know if you have discussed any of this with the owners. Per your own website, there is nothing regarding training or correction methods.
> 
> ...


HA HA! Thanks for the eye roll!
I discuss all issues openly with the owner. When he hired me, it was to do structured walking to help him better on leash. Again, I have only been with this dog 3 times. I am realizing that he needs so much more than leash manners. He has a lot going on. 
But I do let my clients know if and when a roll was needed. In the 12 years I've been dog walking, I've done it maybe, 12-15 times. So once a year on average. Its not my go-to training tool.
I'd like to learn more on this LAT that you speak of. Any links to that? 
I am preparing a game plan, to start, to at least get the owner on board that Duke is truly in need of some professional guidance. I know of a local trainer who specializes in bully breeds. But perhaps I need one that works with the GSD...thought?
Thanks for the LAT reference. I will look into that!


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

*Prong Collar Links*

OK, so to be honest, I think I built up a dislike for the prong collars because there is this god-awful dog walker who is just out-right mean to her client dogs. And she uses these things. She linked up with a local douchy trainer who uses these to walk 10 dogs at once on a major boulevard. He is very self absorbed and just an all around douche. So there it is!
Now, a question on the links in the collar...I have used these collars in the past and the larger links are really hard to squeeze together. I also had a ganglion cyst removed on my right hand middle finger (you know the driving signal finger...LOL) and my strength in that hand stinks. I was wondering if I got a collar with the smaller links and got the extra link kit. Would that work or do I need the larger links?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would say don't knock prongs until you've tried them.

And if your looking to get bitten good keep on rolling away

While your intentions are good, you admit you are not a pro trainer..If the owners don't have time or inclination to take this dog to a pro trainer or class, if YOU have the time, why not offer to do it? Ask the owner if they are willing to pay for class and willing to compensate you for your time..It could be a good learning experience for both of you.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

When you roll the dog, does he voluntarily submit to you right away or do you have to pull and hold him down?

Isn't the whole basis of an alpha roll to submit to an alpha? Is the dog actually submitting if he's being forced to do something? 

Doesn't make any sense to me at all. You're forcing something that should be voluntary.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

test


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry had to test because I took the time to write out something long and thorough and post was rejected because I lacked a security code??

so again , briefly.
you certainly have your hands full . Don't assume that the dog is working line because some PD evaluated the dog and rejected him. Even the greenest of green dogs have bond and interest in handler and focus -- this dog more than likely a distress sale from some owner who wasn't prepared for the reality of dog ownership -- a take this dog , he's free !! or from a shelter . He probably began life as a cute pup, then got rambunctious so it was easier to park him outside where he went through days amusing himself . When he walks he pulls like a draught horse from pole to pole marking territory which puts his mind into a totally different zone . You are "there" , he is somewhere else . You are joining him on HIS walk. I would do focus work . I would ask that the owners do simple focus , even if you have to mold the behaviour with food to start , with ball or tug . No focus , no forward motion. Static is boring, motion is exciting ! The owners have to come on board otherwise all your sweat equity and progress will be undone the moment he goes home to bad old habits . Can you have the owners attend some school or hire a good trainer , which as a walker , minder is not really your responsibility . 
Slide (choke) collars and pinch collars are just instruments of communication. The pinch is actually a better tool , if used properly and fitted properly high on the neck , not around the shoulder blades, (same with the choke) -- slack. The sensation on the pinch is evenly distributed along the circumference of the neck . Your hand should be as quiet as working a rein and bit with a horse. 
Carmen


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

To answer your question, YES, you can buy the smaller links and add additional links. There are also prongs that have a latch/slide in mechanism, but there is some question as to the durability of the latch to hold and more importantly to me, the prong doesn't seem to operate as a "prong." That is, there is no snug/release action because it's built like a collar with prongs.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

A link, to see the difference

Here's the main page for prongs: Herm Sprenger Prong Collars: Police K9, Military K9 and Schutzhund Working Dog Equipment

Here's a standard prong, note the triangle of choker chain at the top of the picture, this is what causes the prong to loosen/snug: Herm Sprenger Stainless Steel Pinch Collar-Elite K-9

And the latch/snap prong, note the lack of the triangle of chain. Herm Sprenger Curogan Pinch Collar with Quick Release-Elite K-9 This one pictured is a really cheap plastic looking snap. This one looks better, it actually says it has a live ring, which is really nice (means the collar can snug/loosen) vs the one I've seen in person that does NOT have a live ring: Herm Sprenger Stainless Steel pinch collar-Elite K-9


This is a quick release, which I actually forgot to mention above. The little part on the upper left of that chain material is the release. It essentially unsnaps, slides through one of the O rings on the end of the prong, and then snaps to the chain. So you don't have to squish the prongs together and fit them. Herm Sprenger 3.25 MM Snap on Pinch Collar-Elite K-9


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## gsd320 (Nov 13, 2011)

_"I spend the entire walk with the leash pulled in firmly."_

What is the purpose of taking a dog on a walk if you only allow them to walk closely by your side? Dogs need sensory stimulation... Better to get a long line, let him sniff & investigate. Better to periodically call him to your side to heel or for controlled walking. Better to give obedience commands from a distance like sit or down or come. This is the dog's walk for the dog's well-being not a chore that needs to be done. Any dog will be more well-behaved & responsive to commands when he's allowed to explore & sniff.


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## gsd320 (Nov 13, 2011)

_"So, I'm looking for advice and guidance to help this dog stay out of the shelter and get the training he needs to join the mid-day dog pack for our excursions!"_
Ashleec--not every dog is suitable to join a pack of dogs. Often dog play time is used not as a tool for socialization, but as a substitute for human involvement & effort.


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## gsd320 (Nov 13, 2011)

_"I am adamantly AGAINST any choke chains or pinch collars. I have even rolled him during our structured walks. I try to give him some slack but sheesh, he is so strong!"_
Not trying to be wise or anything, but you need some more experience girl.


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## gsd320 (Nov 13, 2011)

_"Never happened. I know how to properly roll a dog."_
Come on over I'd love to see how to properly roll a dog.


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

"I spend the entire walk with the leash pulled in firmly."

I wouldn't recommend this. I would alternate between heeling and "free time" so the dog has a bit of freedom to sniff and just be a dog. This has helped me tremendously with my male. He was pulling, always trying to get ahead but once I started giving him some freedom he relaxed, he heels much better and now we enjoy our walks.


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## gsd320 (Nov 13, 2011)

_"I'm not a dog trainer by trade, but for the past 12 years I have had a lot of success in making dogs great pack members by treating them with respect, love and giving them respectful discipline as needed. I hate these trainers that feel the need to impose some mach BS onto the dogs."_

Ashleec-I'm getting madder by the minute--you claim to respect dogs yet you don't let them enjoy their walks, you roll them & use other dogs to train them.... This is respect? I think it's laziness & refusal to learn. In those 12 years of experience, have you ever attended any seminars or read any books?


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## gsd320 (Nov 13, 2011)

Makes me angry that this dog went to such inexperienced owners. He has such easy problems to fix.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

gsd320 said:


> Makes me angry that this dog went to such inexperienced owners. He has such easy problems to fix.


I second this. Is this really common practice for PD's to just throw away a potential k9 to such inexperienced and un-committed owners? If he was 18 months old, had started training, and then flunked out, I would imagine they would be very aware of just how high-maintenence this dog is and the kind of owner that would be necessary to work with him. 

And to the OP, while this forum is a great resource, it sounds like you are in over your head. And coming from a fellow "dog caretaker," any dog that takes away so much attention from other dogs is considered a liability and doesn't belong in a pack of dogs. I agree with other posters that although you are well intentioned you need to have a very blunt conversation with the owner about the potential future for his dog if he doesn't get his butt in gear. While you as a dog walker are a great resource and helpful to many families, this is a situation in which you might do more good by being brutally honest with the owner and refusing to enable his laziness.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

The halti will break. Been there, done that with the halti. I have a 14 month old, and used the halti months ago, and during one of his aggressive events, he lunged and broke it. If you insist on using a head collar, use the Canny Collar, made much stronger. The easy walk harness can be slipped out of if they pull back enough. And before it is said, they were both fitted correctly.

The use of a prong or a martingale is your best choice. The martingale won't give as strong of a correction.

I can say thank you as well. If the time comes I have to enlist the aid of a walker, I am more aware of what I don't want in one. I can only imagine how hard I would come down on someone even attempting to roll my dog. Much less bringing a reactive dog into a pack they are walking.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

We use to get guards from the local private prison at the shelter all the time, looking for good "working prospects" who knew absolutely zilch about what they were doing. They were there as private citizens who wanted to train their own working dog, not in any officially sanctioned role. They would walk up and down the kennel rows, bouncing a tennis ball and any dog that showed any interest was an instant choice. Of course, the dog also had to look the part as well. 

Of course, two or three weeks later the dogs were almost invariably returned to the shelter because they were unsuitable. But they were now labeled as "a police dog who bombed training" and they were put up for adoption publicly labeled as such. So I always take the "bombed police dog" label with a grain of salt. 

I have also worked with a local LEO, who is a real trainer with his department and his procedure is much, much different. He actually knew what he was doing.
Sheilah


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

To quote the OP: "I am adamantly AGAINST any choke chains or pinch collars. The chokes can damage the trachea and the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way."

Clearly, it sounds like you have dog experience, but I have found in all the GSDs we've owned, the prong/pinch collar is an excellent training tool. If it's worn properly, which is higher on the neck than one would think, it's very effective in encouraging self-correcting. 

Like you, I don't like using choke chains, but have one on (the dead ring) as a back up to the prong in the event it should break free. However, I won't tolerate pulling on walks or having to roll my dog over to show it who's in charge.


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

sashadog said:


> I second this. Is this really common practice for PD's to just throw away a potential k9 to such inexperienced and un-committed owners?


I work at a PD where we have 4 K9's - by the time they come to our officers, they've been basically chosen for our Department by the trainers. I've never heard of a (reputable) trainer allowing a failed K9 candidate to be offered to a home where the "new" owners aren't well prepared for the type of dog they're getting. 

Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey everyone. Hope you all had a great Christmas and New Years! I've been off the board for obvious reasons.....traveling clients, shopping, wrapping and other holiday crap. Now, back to reality!

Update for Duke, the GSD in question.

Duke never had any actual bite training. He didn't show the desired traits as a pup and was disqualified. Amazing what you learn when you dig a bit deeper.

Duke now has a bite history....yay! A neighbor was visiting last night. As she was getting up to leave, Duke jumped up (as he's been allowed to do....UGH!) and nipped at her face....annnnnnnnd....38 stitches later and a visit from ACO, the dog is now under the mandatory 10-day quarantine. The neighbor won't press charges if the dog is out after the 10 day quarantine.

I'm taking him! I have already contacted a local behaviorist and will be getting him neutered ASAP! 

Am I wrong to assume that this wasn't a "true" bite, but just a young dog displaying puppy traits that should have been trained out by this point? Obviously there were much LARGER consequences. Had this been a Pomeranian, it wouldn't be an issue, but big dogs make big bites. Perhaps he was displaying the typical puppy trait of being up in the face (a throw back to wolves) and the retention of nipping just lead to a terrible outcome? 

I adore this dog. I want to do right by him. He's only 18 months old. So much life ahead of him. So much potential.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I've never had stitches before, but 38 seems like more than something "just a nip" would require. Was there anything in particular that set him off to bite?


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

gsd320 said:


> _"I'm not a dog trainer by trade, but for the past 12 years I have had a lot of success in making dogs great pack members by treating them with respect, love and giving them respectful discipline as needed. I hate these trainers that feel the need to impose some macho stuff onto the dogs."_
> Ashleec-I'm getting madder by the minute--you claim to respect dogs yet you don't let them enjoy their walks, you roll them & use other dogs to train them.... This is respect? I think it's laziness & refusal to learn. In those 12 years of experience, have you ever attended any seminars or read any books?


Actually, yes I have. I have read many books on dog training by many different styles of dog trainers. I have attended seminars on pack mentality as well. I came here for help. I stated my beliefs, and told you the techniques I have used thus far. Have any of you heard of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM? You don't need to be like: well, now I know what I don't want in a dog walker, or you have a lot to learn honey, or I'd be angry if you ever rolled my dog.....well, it was my only option at the time. Should I have let him slip his Halti and attack the Boxer and his owner? Would THAT make it better in your eyes? The dog is a GSD who weighs in over 125 lbs. Not easy to control. I take offense to some of you so-called experts and your passive-aggressive assumptions. YOU are the EXACT people I avoid in the dog world. You make dog training a chore.

Thank you to those of you who took the time to understand MY point of view and took the time to prepare an EDUCATED response. I will heed your warnings and your advice and learn from it. **comment uncalled for**


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I've never had stitches before, but 38 seems like more than something "just a nip" would require. Was there anything in particular that set him off to bite?


When he jumped up and nipped the neighbor pulled away. I guess he had her bottom lip and she jerked away. SO, 20 stitches inside the mouth and 18 outside. The lip tears so easily, especially if you jerk away. It sucks how it all transpired. But maybe its for the best for Duke. now he will get the training and structure and exercise he needs. 
I already ordered a cage muzzle for him. Just for the beginning to prevent any "accidents". Bite inhibition will be the FIRST thing we work on with the behaviorist!!


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

jennyp said:


> "I spend the entire walk with the leash pulled in firmly."
> 
> I wouldn't recommend this. I would alternate between heeling and "free time" so the dog has a bit of freedom to sniff and just be a dog. This has helped me tremendously with my male. He was pulling, always trying to get ahead but once I started giving him some freedom he relaxed, he heels much better and now we enjoy our walks.


I actually took your advice on this and It works great. I let him sniff and pee for the first half, bring him in for some close walking and sitting and again with the loose leash. The prong collar has been a god-send. What a difference!


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

Twyla said:


> The halti will break. Been there, done that with the halti. I have a 14 month old, and used the halti months ago, and during one of his aggressive events, he lunged and broke it. If you insist on using a head collar, use the Canny Collar, made much stronger. The easy walk harness can be slipped out of if they pull back enough. And before it is said, they were both fitted correctly.
> 
> The use of a prong or a martingale is your best choice. The martingale won't give as strong of a correction.
> 
> I can say thank you as well. If the time comes I have to enlist the aid of a walker, I am more aware of what I don't want in one. I can only imagine how hard I would come down on someone even attempting to roll my dog. Much less bringing a reactive dog into a pack they are walking.


Nice passive-aggressive post. I really appreciate it!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

ashleec73 said:


> When he jumped up and nipped the neighbor pulled away. I guess he had her bottom lip and she jerked away. SO, 20 stitches inside the mouth and 18 outside. The lip tears so easily, especially if you jerk away. It sucks how it all transpired. But maybe its for the best for Duke. now he will get the training and structure and exercise he needs.
> I already ordered a cage muzzle for him. Just for the beginning to prevent any "accidents". Bite inhibition will be the FIRST thing we work on with the behaviorist!!


I figured it had something to do with how sensitive the skin on the facial areas are. Thankfully I've never has bad experiences there!

I would definitely start to look for reasons as to why he jumped on her and used his teeth in the first place. Did she do anything that he isn't used to that made him feel threatened? Has he ever reacted differently/suspiciously towards people before?


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

sashadog said:


> I second this. Is this really common practice for PD's to just throw away a potential k9 to such inexperienced and un-committed owners? If he was 18 months old, had started training, and then flunked out, I would imagine they would be very aware of just how high-maintenence this dog is and the kind of owner that would be necessary to work with him.
> 
> And to the OP, while this forum is a great resource, it sounds like you are in over your head. And coming from a fellow "dog caretaker," any dog that takes away so much attention from other dogs is considered a liability and doesn't belong in a pack of dogs. I agree with other posters that although you are well intentioned you need to have a very blunt conversation with the owner about the potential future for his dog if he doesn't get his butt in gear. While you as a dog walker are a great resource and helpful to many families, this is a situation in which you might do more good by being brutally honest with the owner and refusing to enable his laziness.


I'm just now catching up with the responses. but its funny you say this about having the brutally honest conversation. I had this VERY conversation last week with the owner. told him I think the dog needs a behaviorist or trainer who specializes in GSDs and then he bit the neighbor last night. I am very upfront with my clients on behavior issues. I have only been walking this dog for a short time and when I originally posted, I had only walked him THREE time. Something many on this board FAILED to take notice of. He will be with me next Friday. This is where it gets fun. I've already lined up his neuter appointment and an appointment with a behaviorist. The dog will now have an owner who will actually TRAIN and work with him.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I figured it had something to do with how sensitive the skin on the facial areas are. Thankfully I've never has bad experiences there!
> 
> I would definitely start to look for reasons as to why he jumped on her and used his teeth in the first place. Did she do anything that he isn't used to that made him feel threatened? Has he ever reacted differently/suspiciously towards people before?


I plan on getting a full detailed account of this incident before taking custody of him next week. Just so I have all the details for the behaviorist. I had noticed that they allowed him to be very mouthy with themselves. I warned against that over and over but its in one ear and out the other with some people.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My dog used to be reactive towards strangers. Not physically aggressive, but not confident and it resulted in fearfulness. Our routine for strangers (or people in general) in the house is that when someone is entering or leaving, the dog must go to his "place:, which is a bed in the corner, and he must stay there until released. It generally helps in getting people in/out without a dog under their feet, as well. I have always allowed an initial alarm barking when someone knocks at the door, but once I acknowledge that I know the person, he is cued to knock it off. He is not allowed to approack strangers unless I tell the person how to correctly handle my dog. No serious eye contact, heavy head petting, squeaky baby talk noises, or lowered body posture. That routine has worked wonders in my household.

Walking on a leash with a prong, he is not allowed to mark on whatever tree/lawn he pleases. He _must_ walk next to me. Only pottying at designated areas. Typically, I do a backyard potty at home before the walk and before going inside after the walk. I walk for physical exercise for the dog only, not so he can "claim" every streetlight on my block. Any pulling or straying away is followed by a correction and a heel command. Almost never any exceptions.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> sorry had to test because I took the time to write out something long and thorough and post was rejected because I lacked a security code??
> 
> so again , briefly.
> you certainly have your hands full . Don't assume that the dog is working line because some PD evaluated the dog and rejected him. Even the greenest of green dogs have bond and interest in handler and focus -- this dog more than likely a distress sale from some owner who wasn't prepared for the reality of dog ownership -- a take this dog , he's free !! or from a shelter . He probably began life as a cute pup, then got rambunctious so it was easier to park him outside where he went through days amusing himself . When he walks he pulls like a draught horse from pole to pole marking territory which puts his mind into a totally different zone . You are "there" , he is somewhere else . You are joining him on HIS walk. I would do focus work . I would ask that the owners do simple focus , even if you have to mold the behaviour with food to start , with ball or tug . No focus , no forward motion. Static is boring, motion is exciting ! The owners have to come on board otherwise all your sweat equity and progress will be undone the moment he goes home to bad old habits . Can you have the owners attend some school or hire a good trainer , which as a walker , minder is not really your responsibility .
> ...


I got the true details on this dog. He didn't receive any "police" training. He didn't display the desired traits as a young pup and was deemed as pet quality....however, after that.....I have more research to do. Its like finding the holy grail! 

I have used the pinch collar, used the link posted on this thread by another member and so far he walks wonderfully! I am getting him to sit every time I stop. I wait for him to make eye contact with me and then I say OK and we proceed.....its a start! He is extremely unfocused. I want to work on this as soon as we get the bite inhibition well under way. Thanks so much for you KIND and CONSIDERATE advice. I can't say that for some of the posts I've received so far.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

carmspack said:


> sorry had to test because I took the time to write out something long and thorough and post was rejected because I lacked a security code??
> 
> so again , briefly.
> you certainly have your hands full . Don't assume that the dog is working line because some PD evaluated the dog and rejected him. Even the greenest of green dogs have bond and interest in handler and focus -- this dog more than likely a distress sale from some owner who wasn't prepared for the reality of dog ownership -- a take this dog , he's free !! or from a shelter . He probably began life as a cute pup, then got rambunctious so it was easier to park him outside where he went through days amusing himself . When he walks he pulls like a draught horse from pole to pole marking territory which puts his mind into a totally different zone . You are "there" , he is somewhere else . You are joining him on HIS walk. I would do focus work . I would ask that the owners do simple focus , even if you have to mold the behaviour with food to start , with ball or tug . No focus , no forward motion. Static is boring, motion is exciting ! The owners have to come on board otherwise all your sweat equity and progress will be undone the moment he goes home to bad old habits . Can you have the owners attend some school or hire a good trainer , which as a walker , minder is not really your responsibility .
> ...


 
best info for you yet (re: walking")

I had issues with what I thought was pulling and then I asked myself Who's the dog here?

The second before doggy gets one step ahead of ****, change direction wthout warning. Treat if he follows. Do this every time, even if you only progress 15 steps forward in 20 steps. You will see a difference after a few walks.
Other issues to address but this mat help with the walking.

\search on Michael Ellis, Focus and Engagement for a good place to start your long journey.
good luck


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> My dog used to be reactive towards strangers. Not physically aggressive, but not confident and it resulted in fearfulness. Our routine for strangers (or people in general) in the house is that when someone is entering or leaving, the dog must go to his "place:, which is a bed in the corner, and he must stay there until released. It generally helps in getting people in/out without a dog under their feet, as well. I have always allowed an initial alarm barking when someone knocks at the door, but once I acknowledge that I know the person, he is cued to knock it off. He is not allowed to approack strangers unless I tell the person how to correctly handle my dog. No serious eye contact, heavy head petting, squeaky baby talk noises, or lowered body posture. That routine has worked wonders in my household.
> 
> Walking on a leash with a prong, he is not allowed to mark on whatever tree/lawn he pleases. He _must_ walk next to me. Only pottying at designated areas. Typically, I do a backyard potty at home before the walk and before going inside after the walk. I walk for physical exercise for the dog only, not so he can "claim" every streetlight on my block. Any pulling or straying away is followed by a correction and a heel command. Almost never any exceptions.


I've been doing that on the walks too. Not allowing him to mark every pole, walking in the middle of the street (a quiet side street) and also making him to a sit when we are approaching a particularly favorite pole. 
He is really starting to get it, and now that I will have him 24/7, he will be getting what he needs at all times not the 2 half-hour sessions he got weekly. 
Hey, can you come over and train my Lab not to bark his head off when someone comes over...LOL! He's 9 and stubborn as a mule. I've tried making him stay in his spot but I swear, the older he gets the worse he becomes. I've read Labs make good watch dogs but man! He spends less time watching and more time announcing! Other than that, he is super trained. I just don't get it. Its his one hang up. He literally poops on command, recalls in a split second, is super social and tolerant, never nips, jumps up, digs holes....a super dog....except for the announcing of a visitor.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I admit that I skimmed this thread. However it is nice that you are definitely trying with this animal's owners. Getting a trainer/behaviorist is a good step.

My co-worker walks a few of our client's dogs. These are dogs that can no longer come to our place due to aggression issues.
I ask her how one girl (a shep/akita mix) has been doing and this co-worker is awesome.
"Oh, she's doing great! She completely ignores dogs in yards now, were working on not wanting to kill the dogs walking across the street." 
And, I firmly believe that she'll get there with this dog. She has some great potential (the dog AND my co-worker) had a rough start in life and may or may not be completely turned around 100% but will be a safer more balanced dog with time.

But this is the reason why: Quoting Carmspack.



> *The owners have to come on board otherwise all your sweat equity and progress will be undone the moment he goes home to bad old habits .* Can you have the owners attend some school or hire a good trainer , which as a walker , minder is not really your responsibility .


The most important thing of all is in this boldface sentence.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would say if you're taking this dog, then do a bit of research on ways to engage a dog's mind that involve things other than just going on walks. I'm not sure how many of his issues you'll overcome without some serious mental stimulation.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I'd say the owners are pretty darn "lucky" the bitten person didn't press charges and sue them or they'd loose their shirts. 

I can certainly see a 'lip' getting torn end up with that many stitches OUCH.

Sounds like the 'owners' just let this dog have a pass for everything and he's an out of control brat who has had no boundaries/nor training.

I would definately get a behaviorist, I would definately put a prong on him, and I'd definately be whipping him into shape. 

I don't know how the dog laws in RI work, but if he's got a bite record, I'd keep that in mind when doing anything.

Also, you mention you have an older lab? Do you know how he is with other dogs? 

Just to add, you might want to clean up the language you use, the mods here, myself included, don't appreciate it much


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

ashleec73 said:


> and nipped at her face....annnnnnnnd....38 stitches later and a visit from ACO, the dog is now under the mandatory 10-day quarantine.
> [snip]
> Am I wrong to assume that this wasn't a "true" bite, but just a young dog displaying puppy traits that should have been trained out by this point?


A nip does not result in 38 stitches! This was a bite. And yes, you are wrong in assuming it was not a "true" bite. Dogs that go at the face are scary (I've met a few of them) not because they are more or less dangerous but because they can do more damage and are acting instinctually by going to at a vulnerable body part (the head).

If you are going to take on this project, I'd be starting to work on muzzle training him right away. I'd also be interviewing behaviorists now and ask to talk to clients that they have helped with something similiar. I'd also be very careful about trying any internet advice on this dog. 

It's very hard to give advice on aggression because there are so many subtle signs that you need to SEE in order to know what to do. Some things you can advise without risking further injury to anyone physically or mentally but those things are generally management tactics and not rehabilitation plans.


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> If you are going to take on this project, I'd be starting to work on muzzle training him right away. I'd also be interviewing behaviorists now and ask to talk to clients that they have helped with something similiar. I'd also be very careful about trying any internet advice on this dog.


I have 2 calls in to behaviorists. I plan on getting him started the day I get him. I also ordered a cage muzzle for him last night and I am ordering, but its hard to find, a metal crate pan. He chewed the plastic one in his own crate. I am also looking into some busy chew toys for him to use when he is alone in the crate. He can't be left out because he is so destructive. 
All this transpired, me taking him, last night. I am trying to get as much lined up for him before he enters my home. 
He will NOT be exposed to my mid day exercise dogs until well after he has the clearance of the behaviorist. But he will have canine companionship with my current dogs (a Lab and an Akita mix.) Until I trust him a bit more, he will not have unsupervised access to these dogs.
I realize the importance of real-life help for this dog, but its nice to get some input from those who own and train this specific breed. In Rhode Island, I am having a tough time locating a GSD-specific trainer. But who know, I may locate one soon, and that would be FABULOUS!


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well I'd say the owners are pretty darn "lucky" the bitten person didn't press charges and sue them or they'd loose their shirts.
> 
> I can certainly see a 'lip' getting torn end up with that many stitches OUCH.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right in assuming that Duke was leftt o run amok with no guidelines or rules. I have 2 behaviorists in mind and will be interviewing them this week.
In RI, I am well aware of the laws on dog bite liability. He pretty much is up a creek if it happens again. But, I am hoping that with the right training, exercise and mental stimulation, we can get him to where he should be by 2 years old. I have a lot of hope for this dog.
As far as his behavior with other dogs, he does have play dates with the neighbor's Aussie. He isn't completely dog-aggressive. Perhaps its leash aggression he has...not sure. 
And...sorry about the language issue. I was catching up on all the replies and there were some really passive-aggressive, unhelpful, useless comments and I got a bit worked up. Won't happen again.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know a couple of really good trainers in RI, one has Belg Tervs, I'll have to ask her the name of the place she trains,,I can't recall at the moment, tho I've been there a zillion times doing agility run thrus,,right over the CT border I think it was exit 4..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

found her 
BIO_Christine

You can tell her I referred you,,my name is Diane Stevens, Christine knows her stuff


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## ashleec73 (Dec 4, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> found her
> BIO_Christine
> 
> You can tell her I referred you,,my name is Diane Stevens, Christine knows her stuff


Thanks for the referral! Does she specialize in bite inhibition? I definitely will get Duke in some serious obedience training but his immediate issue is bite inhibition and NOT jumping up at people. The jumping I can work on at home, but the bite thing needs serious attention.
I am based in East Providence so I know of the trainers based near Providence. To a Rhode Islander, anything south of Warwick is a day trip.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Christine is really good at what she does, she is a calm quiet trainer , I've seen what she does with her own dogs and I like it.

Definately if your in not in her area, look around, she may even be able to refer you to someone.


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