# Question for prong users



## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

At what age do you think it's appropriate to start using a prong collar? I didn't say abusing, just adding it as a tool. As of now I don't need it. It's something I've used in the past to help with leash manners on adult dogs and to fine tune some other commands that they really needed to perform - such as giving an out command. 

Just wanna hear some of your opinions on right age, not whether it's the right tool. Thanks ahead of time folks


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

It really depends on the dog and the temperament of the dog. I'm not a fan of prong collars on puppies or young dogs, but will certainly use them on older dogs. It also depends on the experience level of the handler. I can not give a specific age as it is dependent on the dog. I work some pretty high drive, hard dogs and as adults or over a year, they all wear prong collars while training. 

I have seen some dogs at 6 - 8 months respond well to a prong with a good handler. But, these are working line dogs that have the drive and tenacity to be able to handle working in one.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The first trainer I went too said she waits until six months. That is what I done with my oldest dog. He handled it fine. But I didn't over do it. Just really light corrections.


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## BlitzRomman (May 24, 2017)

I was always a fan of the prong collar, however I just never used it until now. He's almost 1 year old now and I only implemented it because he picked up a bad habit of pulling and jumping when on leash if he ever saw other dogs.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I was thinking 6-8 months as a general age. He's still way too young for me to need it or to get an idea of how hard he is. Just didn't wanna play the guessing game when there's so many people here with the right experience to answer these kinds of questions.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

my boy started on his at 6 months when he figured out he was already strong enough to try and get his way by pulling. He wore a martingale at the time. He still does as his back up collar and the one with his id tags on it. 

my she-pup at one and a half, seldom needs hers. I let her wear a harness when she was small and waited to start working with a collar. She works well with a martingale collar and often I only have the prong around her neck but not attached to the leash. I only use it if it is a high energy situation. 

there is not strict guide line.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I started the prong when a martingale would no longer work in certain situations. Usually when adolescence hit.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

At 5 months because I didn't know how to teach a driven puppy to loose leash walk. With a young puppy that drags you everywhere on leash, I'd do the stop thing when it pulls, change direction before it hits the end of the leash and tons of reward for walking with a loose leash instead of lot's of corrections. Self discovery, reward for desired behavior>corrections.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I too train and love very high drive dogs. My current dog is an Aussie from working stock lines. She is 60 pounds so at the top of the weight for the group. I do a lot of physical exercising and conditioning with my dog as I don't like to see fat, lazy dogs especially when they could be really nice dogs to own.

So, as with most driven dogs pulling on the leash comes with the dog. I address this by making this a command or release. I use a standard harness, a nylon or leather flat collar and a prong. I don't own a chain. I make my own leashes except for the leather " dress" leash and tab. We have 4,5,6,8, 30, 60 and 90 foot leashes. Each has a use. The only time she is off leash is training in the ring and at home inside.

Our standard combination is the harness, flat collar and prong with the 8' leash and 12" tab. The leash connects to the harness. The harness has a connector to the flat collar, the tab has the leash running through it and is connected to the prong. We can walk loose leash, close order heel with the tab, or release with the command "sniff ". I started right out the first day with her on the prong and 12" tab. There is no chance of pulling. I rewarded every slack event at first. No matter how small. I also introduced her to " watch me" again reward every look at me, every check look at me. Very quickly she learned that keeping an eye on me was all good. She got lots of rewards and praise.

One thing about this part. Dogs like to look around and walking straight ahead while watching you is a bit foreign to them. It takes a while before they get comfortable walking while watching you. If you are military "eyes right" or " eyes left" while marching would be similar. Try it yourself. It's harder than you think.
We have a "right side" heel too which means she needs to watch looking to her left. This year I added " lead" and " follow " a bit more difficult with out pulling on the leash. She has to look straight ahead for these. 

Back to pulling on the leash. I started with the tab. Not letting the leash out. Obviously she couldn't yank very far before the tab closed the prong. It's not a hard correction, true a bit negative, but these very high drive dogs have nerves of steel and really want to please you. At least that's my finding. It didn't take long for her to note that the rattle of the prong chain meant she was out of position and needed to get closer to me. No real correction here. I never use more than a finger tug, usually just wiggle the tab a little when necessary. At a certain place I offer a release for her to sniff and " find a spot" ( go potty ) during this time she is free to pull as hard as she wants on the leash and harness. I've seen her pull against the fish scale well over her weight so she can pull hard. It's good exercise as almost every muscle gets worked hard. My knee brace gets a good workout too.LOL When it's time to heel again I use our heel command. I revert to the German command here "fuss". And she quickly comes to heel position. I can either pick up the tab or just gather the leash and " walk nice". Just a side here, I also teach her to only start walking when I start with my left foot. When I start with my right foot it means I'm leaving and she is to stay in place. No command for either. 

It does take a while and you need to be very consistant here because you are teaching multiple commands for just going for a walk. However this is a 3-4 times a day, every day event so it is very important. We live in a dog appt with some of the rudest people and matching dogs imaginable. 

I never allow another dog to get even close to us. Never go to dog parks. I use lots of distraction with treats to prevent interactions. Sometimes we get caught in bad spots with no retreat possible so a stand in place is the best as it is not submissive or threatening. It often turns into a barkfest in a hallway but I always position my self between my dog and anything happening. 

So, this is how I get around leash pulling. It's not my invention as an early trainer taught me this some 25-30 years ago. Some of my dogs have been more couch dogs and responded very quickly to this. The tab is the main point as the dog simply cannot not get a run at the leash without a command. 

Comments?
Byron


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I also think it depends on the dog...hugely...I think my dog started with one around 9 Mos, like someone else said, he was suddenly very big and thought he might be able to throw his weight around with me


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Some interesting thoughts going on. So far, at a little over 3 months (I believe) we have zero issues with walking on a leash. It seems he naturally prefers to stay to my left but the only thing he really tries to do is switch sides behind me. A finger tug - more of a bump I guess -on just a flat collar gets him back to where I want. He's also not very interested in other people or dogs and prefers to stay near me when we walk. So I'm happy as far as leash walking goes. For now, I guess we'll see how that plays out when he really gets some size on him. 

My main interest in the prong question here was for when he hits those moments where praise or treats aren't as motivating to him anymore. I've stopped rewarding with treats, and the only thing I've had to revisit was switching his down command to German because now that he's big enough to stand up on stuff the word down has been thrown around a lot and I think it's confused him. So once again I went back to using the treat to lure a few times and wean off. His sit/stay and down/stay has been pretty good but definitely not rock solid. Especially when he's wound up or there's lots of distractions going on. 

So as a little background the only thing I've used a prong for was leash manners and the out command, which at the time was the most important thing for them to really have down rock solid. Next was recalls but I never used a prong for that. Obviously at 3 months old I haven't put a prong on him, and don't see a need to. However the trainer I'll be working with next month suggests he wears a fursaver all the time and I'm not even entirely sure about that.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts so far, and of course I'm open to more


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The use of a pinch collar should never be predicated on the age of the dog. Never! Rather the use should be made in accordance with need, and ability to properly utilize. Jmo


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Those of you who use prong collars- do you use a secondary collar at the same time? I've heard that the links on the prong can sometimes fall out while in use, just wondering if it's something that happens a lot?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

@Whiteshepherds I don't think it happens a LOT, but it certainly can happen. 

Well, "a lot" probably depends on how many dogs a person handles per week, per month. When I use a prong on my boy, I use a double ended leash to his regular collar, that way I can use the prong or not, and I have a built in backup. 

Factors for me include, is the dog aggressive to people or dogs or has zero verbal control/ is flight risk, these are factors that make a prong backup a must.

I mean if you are using a prong to fine tune obedience on a well trained dog that isn't dangerous...probably you don't need a backup. This pretty much applies to my dog but I use system as above because it's my method for reducing prong use to not using it

It's one of those things that may not happen this year, or next, but if your dog aggressive dog lunges at another dog and the prong fails and now there is a bloody fight or your car chasing dog now is launched into traffic after lunging at a car...yeah, you need a backup because it's one of those things that no one can afford to have happen


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

my large link collar seems pretty dependable, but if in doubt I can double clip the collar with the martingale. The loop on the fabric martingale has enough slack to not interfere with the regular working of the prong collar. My small link collar does come apart and if I use it I always double hook it with the martingale.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Here is the prong I use. I've used these for 25-30 years and I've never seen one come apart or have the link open by itself. Once you get the length adjusted its very easy to put on and takeoff. We call it " shinny collar" . I call Samantha to me and tell her lets get shinny collar on and go for a walk. She will come bouncing to me and hold still while I get her hooked up. I take it off in the truck and never leave her alone with the prong on. 

There are some good points about double connecting below. I never want my dog to accidentally escape or tangle in a dog fight. I only use a tab on the prong and it's not directly attached to the leash. The leash is just looped through the tab so it is easy to grab like a handle. My leather tab is much stiffer so it works great for quick pick up and switching hands in training.

It's also offered in stainless steel.

https://www.rayallen.com/chrome-plated-german-steel-quick-release-pinch-collars


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've used them on young puppies when certain special circumstances are met. Every once in a while someone's already managed to train a super lock down or pulling dog because of a combination of the pups own genetic higher than normal opposition reflex or just pisspoor leash skills and it is easier to break the pattern up with tactful prong use than to try to do it with a flat collar because of the novelty of the sensation. After this is done I go back to flat collar. It is an exception rather than a rule though.

The thing is this. That is a case where someone's already screwed things up and something needs to be untaught. I would never need to go there with a blank slate dog because the dog wouldn't have learned to hoodlum on the leash in the first place. If you made the pulling dog pull the addition of the tool without the technique to use a leash properly in place will not help you in the long run.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Yeah, I agree with you. We go to three different training centers, mostly for proofing our training although we do all the class work. I like to present perfection in classes. We do different recalls except for whistle, none will allow whistle. The classes are ongoing obedience but often have dogs right out of basic and occasionally pretty good pups or young dogs. Unfortunately sometimes people bring maniacs that somehow got by the basic classes. In four years now I've seen two serious dog fights. I kept us out of the way and let the trainers handle them. All the classes allow and recommend prongs. I'm the only one that uses a tab with the prong. but I've had a number of people ask about it. I see quite a few GSD that need work. Lots with very poor structure. Most come to classes with the prong already on. A few also use a flat collar. Generally they use the flat collar for just walking around and use the prong for training only. Outside at car shows where I spend a lot od time I see prongs as primary collars. Personally I see this a a big mistake. If you need this to control the dog in public you really need more training in calmer situations. I can see a double end leash or a connector between a flat collar and the prong with the leash on the flat collar. At public events your dog needs to calmly walk next to you and not all over on a junkie retractable leash.

Anyway, undoing previous problems for most people requires the trainers to step in. All three centers do pretty well with this. Excitable big dogs are one thing but high drive big dogs that need help are quite another. I'm surprised that all the trainers have difficulty with this as they all are big agility and obedience trainers with lots of ribbons. They all have high drive dogs for competition. But dealing with messed up dogs seems a never ending battle. A lot of owners just don't listen and apply what is given or simply refuse to deal with the problems beyond class. 

Here is an example, 
There was a Malamute male big dog at least 130-150 pounds that just dragged the lady owner around. When she tried to hold the dog back it turned around and ripped the sleeve off her sweat shirt. The guy owner came in and tried to grab the dog and he got his shirt ripped and the dog knocked him down. The trainer finally got the dog settled then ushered the three out.....never to return, thankfully. They need pro help. Two other dogs in the ring piddled and cowered in the corner. We just stood aside, my dog calmly sat and watched. I was surprised as she normally would have become very excited. I just stood ready to protect us if necessary. When it was over my dog simply looked at me like " let's do something boring like heel around this ring". Drive control. It's what we work on all the time. The ability to be in " overdrive" yet in control then calm down and continue at ease. 

Byron


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## griz (Jan 1, 2001)

I have started using one off and on, but not necessarily for loose leash walking... well sort .... in certain environments the puppy 5 mos is terribly distracted and i dont have the liberty of adding enough distance between us and well the distractions. Which are other dogs. In the park , walking by them hes fine... in a class where you are 2ft he wants to visit badly. Very badly... The prong on the dead link works great, because on a harness or flat collar there is zero recognition of a handler. He chokes himself and acts a fool. I just use the leash to bring him back , and i click and treat for the behavior I want. The prong in this case works just like the flat collar, just better. He doesnt get corrected with it, there is no jerk ( unless he lunges thats on him). But it allows me to say ,HEY im here come back I got the good ( toy or food). when i DO use it, i take it off as soon as i get the behavior i want.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I like prong collars. They are very useful in many ways and in the appropriate situations.

When my male was a youngster, and quite strong, I finally decided to learn to use it. It changed our walks and relationship overnight. I was needing knee surgery, and walking was painful. So corrections were becoming exhausting. The first walk with one, I just let him "correct himself" and training became pleasant and unstressful for me. He understood very quickly what I wanted. 

I think Leerburg explains this very well. There's some great info on this on their site.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bentwings1 said:


> Here is the prong I use. I've used these for 25-30 years and I've never seen one come apart or have the link open by itself. Once you get the length adjusted its very easy to put on and takeoff. We call it " shinny collar" . I call Samantha to me and tell her lets get shinny collar on and go for a walk. She will come bouncing to me and hold still while I get her hooked up. I take it off in the truck and never leave her alone with the prong on.
> 
> There are some good points about double connecting below. I never want my dog to accidentally escape or tangle in a dog fight. I only use a tab on the prong and it's not directly attached to the leash. The leash is just looped through the tab so it is easy to grab like a handle. My leather tab is much stiffer so it works great for quick pick up and switching hands in training.
> 
> ...


You mean she goes and gets that inhumane tool that abuses her readily. I find that hard to believe after learning how barbaric they are. ( sarcasm)


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Those of you who use prong collars- do you use a secondary collar at the same time? I've heard that the links on the prong can sometimes fall out while in use, just wondering if it's something that happens a lot?


It's not a bad idea to attach a longer nylon choke to the prong collar as well. This way if the prong does come of the nylon collar will remain in place. 

I only use Herm Sprenger prong collars. I own several and have used them for many years. I can not recall when one of my prong collars has ever popped off. I do not use a double collar attached to the leash with the prong. I inspect my prong before putting it on to insure all the links are correct and the collar is not twisted. I also do a quick visual and physical inspection after the collar is on the dog's neck to make sure all the links are uniform and the collar is positioned correctly, i.e. high up on the dog's neck and snug enough so it can not spin around. A prong must be properly fitted. Too loose is a problem. I see some people slide them over a dogs neck because the collar is so huge. That is incorrect. You must unhook one of the prongs, place the collar around the dog's neck and connect the links. You can also use the french snap, but that is not my preferred type of collar. 

I have seen other handler's prong collars come apart and it has pretty much always been placed on the dog incorrectly to start, and a link not fully engaged. Also, if you go to the pet store and buy a cheaper prong collar, just throw it in the garbage and get a Herm Sprenger. The ones that you will find at Petco / Petsmart will most definitely come apart. Plus, they are not as uniform or machined as well as the Herm Sprenger. I've been using the same Herm Sprenger collars since the 90's. Never had an issue when you take a second to install it properly and inspect the collar before using it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

thegooseman90 said:


> At what age do you think it's appropriate to start using a prong collar? I didn't say abusing, just adding it as a tool. As of now I don't need it. It's something I've used in the past to help with leash manners on adult dogs and to fine tune some other commands that they really needed to perform - such as giving an out command.
> 
> Just wanna hear some of your opinions on right age, not whether it's the right tool. Thanks ahead of time folks


My opinion is pretty tough to separate from age. Its a good tool. Anything can be a good tool, its all about what you do with it and how your dog accepts it. There's a great saying from someone I respect and listen to more then anyone else I know. "Their perception is our reality" Its all about the dog and how they perceive what your doing.

In their mind you can be just as harsh with a harness as an ecollar. Focus on the behavior and how effective what you're doing is, to either teach what you want or stop what you don't. Clarity without conflict leads to a happy dog. 

And this may be a little off the topic, but even here in the epicenter of furbaby-dom, I rarely meet anyone with so much concern over a simple collar like a prong. There's got to be some disconnect with the way its discussed online. Like not using a prong is some hallmark of a good handler or something, and its something to always try and fade out because its a crutch. If the dog is trained, I don't see any difference in what collar they put on then. They're trained.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I managed to cut out half a sentence here:



> My opinion is pretty tough to separate from age. Its a good tool and it doesn't matter what age.


What matters is what you do with it. If you teach them what it is, don't just strap it on and start popping away, I don't see any reason to not start young.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> It's not a bad idea to attach a longer nylon choke to the prong collar as well. This way if the prong does come off the nylon collar will remain in place.


Since my dogs are also wearing their flat collars with tags, I use one of these with a prong rather than a nylon slip collar: Pull Tab










I attach the leash to the prong and to the loop end of the pull tab, and clip the other end of the tab to the flat collar. I'm not not doing corrections with my dogs anymore, it's simply management for walking them in an area with lots of exciting, chaseable critters, but the tab is long enough that it would not impede the movement of the prong collar if you did need to do a correction. They also make a fancy two ended leash that basically does the same thing, but I already had nice leather leashes from Leerburg, so I just added the tabs.


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