# Please critique this training exercise



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Every time we have our playtime, I try to throw some form of command enforcement exercise. Whether it's a random "wait", or a random heel.

In this case, Kira was retreiving her fetch in anticipation of me throwing the stick in my hand. I surprised her with a "wait" command.

Since I don't know anything about proper training, I was wonder what I could add to this?
She will stop and "wait" whether she's running to or from me. I want to strengthen this under different conditions, but I'm not sure what to add to this.

Suggestions welcomed.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I always make the dog wait to retrieve after I throw. Some times I'll call back or platz the dog during the send a way.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

robk said:


> I always make the dog wait to retrieve after I throw. *Some times I'll call back or platz the dog during the send a way.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Don't understnd.
> 
> Are you saying that you would stop the dog while on the fetch?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> robk said:
> 
> 
> > I always make the dog wait to retrieve after I throw. *Some times I'll call back or platz the dog during the send a way.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

robk said:


> I always make the dog wait to retrieve after I throw. Some times I'll call back or platz the dog during the send a way.


Can you elaborate how you train the dog to platz on the send away? 

I'm currently training my dog for this - whether it's in the middle of a send away or just in the middle of something. She got it but I want to see how others train it because my training skills is lacking as i want her "downed" faster and more crisp. Right now it's more like... run run run, I yell down, she slows then downs slowly. It's getting better so may just be a matter of more training sessions. But if she's very close to her target (ie. stick), she will pick it up first before downing. How do you correct this if the dog is off leashed and far away from you? I've started ecollar so that helps with timing a lot but want to see if there are non-ecollar way to train this.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone have on this. 

And to the topic - Kira has a very very sweet looking face.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Did you say "wait"?

I would have made the dog sit or down, then throw, then release/command for retrieve (but get the retrieve.. the dog anticipated another stick being thrown and didn't bother to bring the one it had back). I wouldn't say "closer", i'd say "no, front". otherwise the dog isn't learning what a front really is. I'd also use a platform to get the front positioning close enough and not crooked. 

As far as your commands. Your praise didn't sound like praise. The dog needs an energetic praise.. if you had said "excellent" like a prosac'ed overdosed idiot, she'd probably have a) come back faster, b) the proper front will be easier to get, and c) not lowered in drive. I'd also keep the second stick out of view. You don't want it moving around while you command. 

I wouldn't call the dog back, down them, or otherwise mess with them when they are going to get the stick often... *maybe* 10% of the time. Otherwise the dog will get less and less enthusiastic about getting the stick and more and more trying to anticipate you giving a command.

WHat are your training goals? IPO? Some other sport? Just for fun?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not sure I totally get the question (or the goal) but I do a lot of training where instead of luring the dog (food in hand, holding a ball on my shoulder) I'm deliberately showing the dog what they want, putting it where they know it is, and making them do what *I* say first. So with Nikon this would be doing a little teasing/loading him up for the ball, then I drop the ball on the ground and do stuff like heel around it, even walk over it. When I'm satisfied with the intensity and attention I mark and release him to go get the toy.

In the formal retrieves I want fast, powerful retrieves so I'm more careful about how I do things i training. Normally I work on the impulse control (waiting in basic position for the retrieve command) separate from the actual retrieving, so I don't do many retrieves where I throw the dumbbell and then make the dog wait longer or do other stuff before retrieving. I say this because I've never had my dog leave me early in trial but I did have one instance where I had to give him a second retrieve command.

Whatever you do, just be sure to always mix it up and not unintentionally pattern train behaviors or anticipation that you don't want.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> Anthony8858 said:
> 
> 
> > I do this. I ask for obedience, give the command to wait, throw the ball, release Hunter, and command a "platz" half way to the ball. He has very high ball/toy drive so this type of proofing gives me the confidence to have him off leash.
> ...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Wild Wolf said:
> 
> 
> > This type of "proofing" is what I'm striving for. I just don't know the proper methods for teaching her.
> ...


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Did you say "wait"?
> 
> I would have made the dog sit or down, then throw, then release/command for retrieve (but get the retrieve.. the dog anticipated another stick being thrown and didn't bother to bring the one it had back). I wouldn't say "closer", i'd say "no, front". otherwise the dog isn't learning what a front really is. I'd also use a platform to get the front positioning close enough and not crooked.
> 
> ...


This is a perfect example of an amateur really not knowing what he's doing. I know she's receptive to training, so I just throw some commands in there for the sake having some control over her actions.

I wasn't too entusiastic verbally, but felt the "reward" was her stick and tug on it.

I would like to learn how to and what to say when:

1) I want her to stop and drop (down) on a send away

2) I want her to drop on command if she happens to be somewhere, and maybe some kids startle her on a bike or jog. I'd want to be able to down her from a distance.

These are just a couple of things I need to learn how to teach.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I'm not sure I totally get the question (or the goal) but I do a lot of training where instead of luring the dog (food in hand, holding a ball on my shoulder) I'm deliberately showing the dog what they want, putting it where they know it is, and making them do what *I* say first. So with Nikon this would be doing a little teasing/loading him up for the ball, then I drop the ball on the ground and do stuff like heel around it, even walk over it. When I'm satisfied with the intensity and attention I mark and release him to go get the toy.
> 
> In the formal retrieves I want fast, powerful retrieves so I'm more careful about how I do things i training. Normally I work on the impulse control (waiting in basic position for the retrieve command) separate from the actual retrieving, so I don't do many retrieves where I throw the dumbbell and then make the dog wait longer or do other stuff before retrieving. I say this because I've never had my dog leave me early in trial but I did have one instance where I had to give him a second retrieve command.
> 
> Whatever you do, just be sure to always mix it up and not unintentionally pattern train behaviors or anticipation that you don't want.


I'm not gonna comment on your comment, because I recognize so many errors in my approach. It does get frustrating for me.

HOWEVER, I do want to say that I can't stop looking at your avatar. That dog is so stunning.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I'm not gonna comment on your comment, because I recognize so many errors in my approach. It does get frustrating for me.
> 
> HOWEVER, I do want to say that I can't stop looking at your avatar. That dog is so stunning.


I can watch a video of me handling & training last Saturday and pick it apart. Don't be hard on yourself. No one does it perfectly. I don't even need the video.. I knew what I did wrong immediatly


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just skimmed through this post so not totally sure what the question was.

in standard akc / ckc obedience training trials - hunter field dog trials the dog must wait until released .

dog at side, dumb bell thrown (bumper) , dog told "take it" , he can't just run out --


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm not looking for trial-type training. I just want to have full control of my dog, in the event of an "siutation". I want a solid recall, and down from any distance. I want to be able to call her off if she goes into prey mode, and she's running towards a street.

Carmen, you know her history as well as anyone.... Imagine me playing with her in an open field (like in the video). There's always a chance that someone could come walking from over the hills with a dog off leash. I want to be 100%, that I can call her off, and have her come to me without hesitation.

THAT'S what I want..


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

First I taught the platz (down) and practiced it from different distances from the dog. Later I introduced the command during the send away of the retrieve. I don't do it very often. Only when the dog is very amped.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

robk said:


> First I taught the platz (down) and practiced it from different distances from the dog. *Later I introduced the command during the send away of the retrieve. I don't do it very often. Only when the dog is very amped*.


 
OK.... This is something I had some trouble with.
How do I enforce a down, with a ramped up dog on a send away?

She's obviously in overdrive, and not looking at me


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but you have control of her in this scenario because you are controlling her desire to run after the thrown ball 

obedience bleeds over into other exercises


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

How do I enforce a down, with a ramped up dog on a send away?

that is what I mean exactly -- to get the ball she is ramped up , so you train her to wait until you release her - only then can she go . 
French ring campagne training has call offs. You do not even know what judge is going to tell you. He may ask for you to send the dog , who needs to go out with convincing speed. The judge may want your dog to connect -- or he may test you and ask the dog to be called off . If you call off too soon , not in that zone of higest conflict (for the dog who is oh so close) then points against you , or if dog keeps on trucking and connects - against you. In other words the dog has to be controllable under maximum temptation - same thing with police service dogs - they need to be recalled - everytime they are sent does not guarantee a bite.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

robk said:


> First I taught the platz (down) and practiced it from different distances from the dog. Later I introduced the command during the send away of the retrieve. I don't do it very often. Only when the dog is very amped.


Why very amped? I'd think that makes the dog harder to comply?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Bear L said:


> Why very amped? I'd think that makes the dog harder to comply?


Amped enough that you may not get the down. A solid down with a calm dog won't hold when it's chasing a squirrel into the road. You train in drive


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I don't agree. I get the fastest obedience durning the highest drive moments. This is different than when the dog is chasing a squirrel. This is when the dog is 100% engaged with me.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Let me back up and clarify something. My dog has ball drive but not crazy over the top ball drive. What gets him amped up is the game. His drive is increased during the engagemt with me. My in laws have a lab that I could not ever call off a retrieve. He is old though. And he is getting slow. Often while playing fetch with the two dogs together I have had to call my dog back so the older dog can have a chance to get the ball.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> Anthony8858 said:
> 
> 
> > #1, only ask for a down when the dog is in her highest state of drive to go get the ball... if she's "trotting" out or paying attention to you, let her get it and bring it back on those fetches.
> ...


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> OK.... This is something I had some trouble with.
> How do I enforce a down, with a ramped up dog on a send away?
> 
> She's obviously in overdrive, and not looking at me


Anthony, I can suggest a few things.

First, if you want to enforce a command you need a way to enforce a command. So, use a long line and a smaller space (so she doesn't accidentally run to the end of the line and get enough speed to hurt you and her). Now, start with this: 

you already can have her wait before she goes to get it, so throw the stick, give "down" command (be forceful). If she doesn't down - you have line to correct her, if she does down immediately release with your release word to go get the stick.

After she does this reliably you can increase the distance a few steps at a time. throw it let her run like a split second and down her...

You can also go the other way:
put her in a sit, walk maybe 30 steps, show her the stick / toy / ball whatever. tell her "get it" or something (dont use your release word - to me release word means ok you can go get your reward. It's unfair to add more obedience after - my opinion)... as she's running to the stick you step in front of her and give a forceful "down" command. You can put a little pressure by pushing on her between the shoulders if u are fast enough. You then increase the distance, but going backwards (i.e. you put the ball at 30 steps, walk towards her x number of steps and make her down there). 

If you want, we can do it together saturday  I can show you on my dog (who understands the exercises already so it'll be smooth) and then we can work on Kira (who doesn't understand the exercises so might need a few attempts).

Final note: I like to do one down every 4-5 send aways, no more but definitely less (sometimes I won't even do a down - I'll just send him and let him have it, and finished). Otherwise you run into anticipation of the down, or drive being lowered, etc...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

robk said:


> I don't agree. I get the fastest obedience durning the highest drive moments. This is different than when the dog is chasing a squirrel. This is when the dog is 100% engaged with me.


Don't agree with what?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Don't agree with what?


I was responding to bearL. You posted while I was formulating my response. Sorry about that!


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I see what you guys are saying. I'm training for emergency down by using my dog's toy drive to simulate a wildlife chase (closest chase-like event I can create myself) and I thought I'm suppose to work it up - start with no distraction, little distraction, then higher and higher distractions. Right now, I have difficulty getting a down in real life situations when she's on a chase for something and I understand it may just be a matter of more practice. Otherwise in practice, she is just not crisp enough but comply usually on the first "down" command. But it's the back-legs-down-then-right front leg-then-left front leg speed, like an old lady. I don't know how to get the faster down. She has no problem doing a fast down when we're doing tug training. Could be the drive factor but I want a fast down for emergency reasons to which she may not have the toy drive to help her.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Bear L said:


> I see what you guys are saying. I'm training for emergency down by using my dog's toy drive to simulate a wildlife chase (closest chase-like event I can create myself) and I thought I'm suppose to work it up - start with no distraction, little distraction, then higher and higher distractions. Right now, I have difficulty getting a down in real life situations when she's on a chase for something and I understand it may just be a matter of more practice. Otherwise in practice, she is just not crisp enough but comply usually on the first "down" command. But it's the back-legs-down-then-right front leg-then-left front leg speed, like an old lady. I don't know how to get the faster down. She has no problem doing a fast down when we're doing tug training. Could be the drive factor but I want a fast down for emergency reasons to which she may not have the toy drive to help her.


Like I said... train at the level of *prey* drive... prey... where it is a challenge to get the behavior. 

There are a lot of ways to get faster downs... some dogs just fight it. My male slides into a down.. its the only thing he does with "pop and flash".. Katya, my mal-like GSD, does everything super flashy, except her down. Its a step-step-step down... as of yet I have not gotten it to be a faster down.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would also have her sit nicely and make eye contact before you throw anything. She shouldn't be prancing around showing teeth and yelling at you. 

This is what we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1o2D_aYJgnk#t=0s


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I am glad to know I have been doing some things right, and glad to see how to go further. Rocket's training suffered a bit while I was working, and just today we started the down on send away again. He has gotten rusty. 

I'm so glad you ask these questions Anthony. We all learn much from them!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have not even got this far....She is told to wait, then I throw whatever it is, then tell her to get it. For emergency situations I use an emergency word and she immediately responds and comes back to me. When I start working on the downs in the middle of a recall I think the long line is a great idea.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> I am glad to know I have been doing some things right, and glad to see how to go further. Rocket's training suffered a bit while I was working, and just today we started the down on send away again. He has gotten rusty.
> 
> *I'm so glad you ask these questions Anthony. We all learn much from them!*


*
*


Well, thank you 

I'm glad everyone else it learning. I'm not getting it at all.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Well, thank you
> ...


Ok. Forget about the recall during send away for now. Just practice having her wait to fetch until you give her a command. Throw the ball with the dog in the heel position. This way you can hold her collar until she begins to understand. Don't let her go for a second or two. When she returns have her hold the ball until you take it then have her return to the heel position and wait for you to send her out for the next retrieve. 

By doing this you are building control over the dog and teaching her that obedience is rewarded with the retrieve.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

robk said:


> Ok. Forget about the recall during send away for now. Just practice having her wait to fetch until you give her a command. Throw the ball with the dog in the heel position. This way you can hold her collar until she begins to understand. Don't let her go for a second or two. When she returns have her hold the ball until you take it then have her return to the heel position and wait for you to send her out for the next retrieve.
> 
> By doing this you are building control over the dog and teaching her that obedience is rewarded with the retrieve.



Just to clarify... Kira will stay at my side and wait for a release to fetch. Ive been doing this for quite some time now. I can put her in a heel, throw her ball or whatever, and she will not go until I say so.

Now where do I go from there?
Thanks


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'll throw something and let my dog bring it back to me. then
i'll throw his toy and as he approaches the toy i'll call him back.
on his way back i'll stop him, call him to me and make him stop again.
then i'll call him to me, make him stop and drop the toy. if my GF is there
i'll have him take the toy to her. i'll mix in stop, drop it, come, sit, down.
i'll call him to me and before he gets to me make him stop and go back
and get the toy. i mix it up so he's not just retrieving. if we're playing
where there's a curb i'll throw the toy in the street. he stops at the curb.
i can throw his toy then we walk away from it. sometimes we'll walk far away from the toy and then i'll send him back to get the toy.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Doggiedad, can I just send Hans over for a board and train? 

You make it sound so easy, while we are tearing our hair out, LOL


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> Like I said... train at the level of *prey* drive... prey... where it is a challenge to get the behavior.


How do you create prey-like situations? I can think of only fetching games. I guess I can go for a long walk in the woods and find some wild life, but then I'd usually call my dog off before she even start the chase and she knows she can't chase while she is leashed. 

My goal is to train a solid recall and down when the dog is in the middle of a chase, in case I fail to call her off before the chase begins for whatever reasons. As the dog matures (1 yr old) her prey drive is increasing.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i'll throw something and let my dog bring it back to me. then
> i'll throw his toy and as he approaches the toy i'll call him back.
> on his way back i'll stop him, call him to me and make him stop again.
> then i'll call him to me, make him stop and drop the toy. if my GF is there
> ...


This all sounds good.. But I don't have a remote control for her  

Not sure how I can get to the point you describe.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> i'll throw something and let my dog bring it back to me. then
> i'll throw his toy and as he approaches the toy i'll call him back.
> on his way back i'll stop him, call him to me and make him stop again.
> then i'll call him to me, make him stop and drop the toy. if my GF is there
> ...


This is the only way I can think of to train it too (and successfully) but I'm learning this is not the same as prey drive. Prey drive is much much stronger and instinctive in the dog that has it, it seems. I can't replicate the same success on a wildlife chase. Part of it may just be I haven't train her on it for long. But the ecollar (if I may say it) has greatly helped with timing issues on longer distance trainings.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> This all sounds good.. But I don't have a remote control for her
> 
> Not sure how I can get to the point you describe.


Start with a long line or flexi in a distraction free zone. Start with shorter distance then increase. Or go easier - tell her to wait or down her just when she's wandering around. When she gets that, try with toy but on shorter distance and with a line. If the dog can down and sit far away from you in stillness, the dog will be able to translate that sometimes into the middle of a run or walk.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it is easy. people make training hard. i find training in short
sessions and often works best. 



Sunflowers said:


> Doggiedad, can I just send Hans over for a board and train?
> 
> You make it sound so easy, while we are tearing our hair out, LOL


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the things i incorporate during retrieving were done
individually. one thing at a time. i use a long line but
not always letting the dog reach the end of the line.
i folded the line down. i train in short sessions indoors,
outside and often.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> the things i incorporate during retrieving were done
> individually. one thing at a time. i use a long line but
> not always letting the dog reach the end of the line.
> i folded the line down. i train in short sessions indoors,
> outside and often.


Can you post some videos of you and your dog in action?

Much easier to see what you're doing.

Thanks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony are there any dog training books on your Christmas wish list?

Wonder if we can recommend some for him. What are you interested in doing with Kira ?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Bear L said:


> This is the only way I can think of to train it too (and successfully) but I'm learning this is not the same as prey drive. Prey drive is much much stronger and instinctive in the dog that has it, it seems. I can't replicate the same success on a wildlife chase. Part of it may just be I haven't train her on it for long. But the ecollar (if I may say it) has greatly helped with timing issues on longer distance trainings.


Agreed.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony are there any dog training books on your Christmas wish list?
> 
> Wonder if we can recommend some for him. What are you interested in doing with Kira ?


Oh boy, could I use something step by step specific.

The books I've looked into all focus on basic obedience (sit, stay, etc). I'm not looking to do anything in particular, other than know that I have full control over my dog, and to give her a "job" and some mental stimulation every day.

I just want to give her something to look forward to, every day.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Oh boy, could I use something step by step specific.
> 
> The books I've looked into all focus on basic obedience (sit, stay, etc). I'm not looking to do anything in particular, other than know that I have full control over my dog, and to give her a "job" and some mental stimulation every day.
> 
> I just want to give her something to look forward to, every day.


Have you ever done anything like find it or nose work? It can be a fun game. You get all kinds of different container like things..boxes, bags, etc. You get like 10 of them, put them in one area all spread out, put treats in like 4 of them and she has to find the ones with the treats in them. Chances are she will indicate or paw the container over to get to it...its fun, easy, and makes them think. By day two you will probably be able to tell her find it and she'll know what to do.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> it is easy. people make training hard. i find training in short
> sessions and often works best.


I actually agree with this. Training is also incorporated to other things daily. Training is ongoing and being done all the time even if you don't realize it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

These games are good for mental stimulation. The flirt pole is good for exercise and prey drive.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpeg.gif


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> This is a perfect example of an amateur really not knowing what he's doing. I know she's receptive to training, so I just throw some commands in there for the sake having some control over her actions.
> 
> I wasn't too entusiastic verbally, but felt the "reward" was her stick and tug on it.
> 
> ...


Honestly, it doesn't matter what commands you use. You are not trialing your dog. Your dog is your companion so saying wait or down, doesn't matter as long as you get the result you want. 

Also, I'd like to say, for an "amateur" she's got some pretty nice training and control on her and I am surprised how drivey she actually seems to be.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Oh boy, could I use something step by step specific.
> 
> The books I've looked into all focus on basic obedience (sit, stay, etc). I'm not looking to do anything in particular, other than know that I have full control over my dog, and to give her a "job" and some mental stimulation every day.
> 
> I just want to give her something to look forward to, every day.


Anthony, check this one out BowWowFlix.com: Dog DVD Rentals | Dog Training Dvd | Dog Dvds | Rent Dog Videos

It is like Netflix and you can get anything from everything, from Schutzhund Obedience, Tracking to Dog Dancing and Agility, to Behavioral Tutorials. 

If that doesn't give you tons of stuff to do with your dog, I don't know what does


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## Benny (Dec 13, 2012)

Anthony- How old is Kira out of curiosity?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Benny said:


> Anthony- How old is Kira out of curiosity?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Kira is now 18 months. 
In the video, maybe 16 months. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Benny (Dec 13, 2012)

Nice looking dog, and well trained! Enjoyed the video as it gave me some great hindsight.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Benny said:


> Nice looking dog, and well trained! Enjoyed the video as it gave me some great hindsight..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Thank you....

But I wouldn't consider her "well trained"...

Let's just say she's "domesticated"


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