# HELP!!!! 18 month old GSD still not bonding



## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

So where to begin. Did we do something wrong when he was a puppy, did the breeder, was it genetic? I just don't know where to start, so I will try from the beginning. Kato is show line bred (just found this out) he is 18 months old on Oct. 18 and we love him. He is our first purebred German Shepherd Dog. The biggest problem we are having is he is not bonding very well. Or maybe it is just to me. 

When we got him he didn't really like to be with us a lot. He would spend a lot of time a couple meters away from us laying down and sometimes he would be beside us but more often further away. He would always mouth as a puppy and still now, it never breaks the skin but sometimes it can hurt. We just assumed this is what german shepherds do and are now just finding out that these are not good traits. 

We only took him to a couple puppy classes and did not teach him very many commands when he was younger just sit and down. This was our fault in not teaching him more as we were very busy (I know that is no excuse). So currently we are with a trainer working one on one. We are working on basic commands right now. But I am finding he will not do anything for the most part unless you have a food reward or he thinks you have a food reward. We also thought this was normal GSD behaviour until someone recently let us know that it isn't. 

He at 18 months is still a bit aloof but also enjoys sitting with you, he over heats easily. He does not do what my partner asks of him either and sometimes you have to ask him 5 or more times before he will listen. We have tried different teaching methods, crate, spray, yelping, freezing up when biting and ignore (just gets more excited when you yelp and ignore and will keep mouthing or bark louder), mimicking puppy nip to shoulder blade and make a sound to get/redirect his attention. Nothing seems to work or it works for a little and he goes back to the way he was before. 

Our trainer said we babied him to much when he was a pup and never made him work for anything so now he thinks he gets everything for free. He is not to be on the beds or furniture for 1 month because he nipped me a couple weeks back when I tried to get him off my side of the bed. He is better now that I've been forcibly removing him from furniture the last 2 weeks but after a year of bad habits it's hard for him to break. We are to do at least 15 min. A day of commands sit, down, come and give food reward when he listens (kibble) and if he doesn't listen I walk away. As well as he is not to get affection from me unless he is sitting, laying down calmly or I've asked him to do something and do not have a treat reward ( this way he has to earn my affection). I was also told by someone else to walk through all door ways before him so we have been doing that, as well as once in a while to put my foot gently over his paw to assert dominance. 

So to cap it off I am really nervous now that he will not be trainable and will be this way the rest of his life. Is this a bad genetic or did we do something wrong? I really want to work with him. We love him. 

Thanks for any and all feedback.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Sounds like you may have a 'hard' dog. Or, one with a personality that requires more forceful discipline with more emphasis on NILIF.

I treated Lisl like the little countess she was when she was a little puppy, but she had to earn everything she received. NILIF was a strict regiment for her. There was very little voice-raising, no spanking, no bawling out when she did something wrong.

Lisl is a hard dog too. She was somewhat aloof around me and we didn't really bond until she was around 10 months to a year.

I constantly worked with her, loved her a lot, and always praised her a lot when she performed as she was supposed to, and corrected her gently when she didn't.

Sometimes it takes awhile to figure out how to get through to your dog to make her/him understand what it is you are trying to teach her. Every dog is different and what works for one may not work for the next one. That was the most difficult thing for me to learn with the GSD's I've raised and trained. Each has a distinct personality and responds differently to different ways of teaching.

I wish I had more for you, but try to vary your teaching methods and see if you can't get her to 'click'.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

I agree with everything MichaelE said. Also, he is definitely trainable, don't give up. And NILIF does sound like a good road to go with him. How old was he when you got him?

Again, do not worry about him not being trainable. If that were true, no one would adopt rescue GSDs if they couldn't be retrained. But it is going to take time, first for you to learn, then for you to train him. It will work, but you must have persistence and consistency.

Susan


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Sounds like what your trainer is having you do is NILIF. It is basically training manners and building the relationship/leadership.

For the food training, you will be able to phase that out or transition to using a toy as reward. When you begin phasing out the food reward, start by rewarding every other command, progress to every 4 or 5 commands, then random. Good video to rent thru BowWow or buy is Leerburg | The Power of Training Dogs with Food DVD. Be glad you have food motivation for training. I would suggest using something more exciting then his kibble.

For his mouthing. Verbal correction then command - No - - sit/down. Or teach him an alternate behavior. With Woolf at that age, he loved playing using his mouth; no broken skin but for other reasons it just isn't acceptable for him to think teeth on skin is ok at any time. It seemed like a chant really. He began playing; we grabbed a ball 'teeth on ball not on skin' and shoved it in his mouth. He began grabbing the ball instead of mouthing. Now, if a tooth even grazes one of us, he stops, backs up and sits until we say ok.

As far as snuggling, or being close; your dog may or may not be one who will do that. Woolf is 4 yr old, and it wasn't until this last year he became super affectionate and sometimes thinks he is a lapdog.

Did you do something wrong? You are getting it right now with training. He sounds typical of a pup just learning obedience. The only thing I see questionable is the nipping when you removed him from the furniture. Teach him the off command, instead of having to forcibly remove him, avoids a confrontation.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you ever played tug with him? Does he enjoy the sparring/challenge of winning the tug? You are always the one that controls the game, if you aren't tugging there is no game. Let the dog win(keep him on a line and let him prance around with the reward, bring him back to you with a come or here command.)
Because he is mouthy, I'd put that need to use and engage him while training using the tug as the reward. Food is boring after awhile, and training the same way over and over can also be boring. If a method isn't working change it. 
I have seen dogs so disengaged because the handler is not encouraging fun and excitement. Engage your dog, it isn't too late.
Get a couple nice high value toys(ball on string, two handle tug) and keep them for training only. Maybe you'll see a difference in your boy!

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Canine-Hardware-231201-Chuckit-Medium/dp/B008APMKO6[/ame]

Synthetic Tug 12"-Elite K-9


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your responses so far. No mater what we will be keeping him, as we love him very much. 

I am going to continue with the NILIF training and am happy you let me know what it is called. I looked it up and now have it saved on my bookmarks. 

MichaelE how do you correct gently? When he is on the couch or bed I gently grab him behind the neck and say "off", once he is off I direct him to his bed and on e hi sits or lays down I say "good boy" and praise him. Is that gentle enough? What other gentle reprimands can I use for other things?

Susan Gsd mom he was 7 weeks 5 days when we got him.

Twyla thanks! I will try verbal correction and no. As well as look up leerburg.

Onyx'grl we try not to play tug of war and usually he is not very interested in it. He much prefers you hold a toy for him to chew on so he doesn't have to hold it lol. But I will look into some of that training.

Thanks everyone so far for the good pointers and hope.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just real quick, don't let him get on the furniture to begin with. Teach him a place command instead. Basically a dog bed, rug, or mat you teach him to lay on and not get up till he's told to. Quit grabbing him like that, he's going to keep biting you, badly at some point. Leave a leash with no handle on it, on him. Its called a drag line. Correct him with that. 

Don't worry about being gentle, think in terms of interrupting or stopping something. Don't worry about him behaving because he thinks you have food. Thats fine for now. Dogs don't work very well for free.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Some dogs don't need to be in your space all the time. My dog isn't constantly on me, in fact, I invite him to sit on the couch or get up on the bed, and he will, to humor me--briefly. He lasts about 10 minutes, then he's off. Mostly because he is too hot. I don't take it personally. He's a secure, well-adjusted dog that doesn't need me to be with him or he with me every second. Do I know he's 'bonded'? Sure. He shows it in many other ways. 

18 months is young. Try several (all of them) different toys until you find one he likes. My dog doesn't 'love' tug with regular tugs nearly as much as he loves it with his blue ball. You have to experiment. One of his favorite games with me is 'soccer'. I have a steep grassy hill in the back and he sits at the top and releases the ball, waits until I kick it, and then dives for it. I don't even remember how this started. But he runs to get his blue ball every day when I come home from work. You don't have to play for hours, just a few minutes. I interspersed it with obedience too. He is always sharp as a tack when he wants that freaking ball.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

In training I never repeat the command. Say it once and wait him out. I wouldn't walk away without him doing what I asked. There is nothing wrong with treating until he understands what you want, it's the same way you would teach a puppy. Since he didn't have that when he was younger, start it now. The wait command is a great command so that he stays while you go through doors and stuff. You can also periodically call him to you throughout the day, give him a treat and carry on with what your doing. This will give him the idea that when he comes to you, good things happen(treats, then eventually just praise). Don't ruin that by calling him to cut his nails, clean ears,etc. that isn't fun for them and you should go to him to do these things. Playing tug and soccer are my dogs favorite games, it's fun for everyone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> *In training I never repeat the command. Say it once* and wait him out.* I wouldn't walk away without him doing what I asked*. *There is nothing wrong with treating until he understands what you want, it's the same way you would teach a puppy. Since he didn't have that when he was younger, start it now*. The wait command is a great command so that he stays while you go through doors and stuff. You can also periodically call him to you throughout the day, give him a treat and carry on with what your doing. *This will give him the idea that when he comes to you, good things happen(treats, then eventually just praise). Don't ruin that by calling him to cut his nails, clean ears,etc. that isn't fun for them and you should go to him to do these things*. Playing tug and soccer are my dogs favorite games, it's fun for everyone.


I agree. 

The dog is trying to engage you when it is mouthing you. It WANTS to bond with you. Your lack of training the puppy is why you are currently not feeling bonded. When the puppy starts mouthing you, put a tug in its mouth and start playing with the dog. Or take it outside and throw the ball and tire the puppy out. Or take the puppy for walk. 

Agree, by telling the dog five times, you are TEACHING the dog to ignore your requests. By walking away, you are teaching the dog that he has a choice to do your bidding or not. These are bad training, and you will not bond with your dog with bad training. What you need to do is say it once, and then help him. Do not give commands that you cannot immediately enforce. 

Yes, you can call to him in the day and give a treat if he comes: Rudy!!! Rudy comes, give him a treat. Good Boy! But if you use the word COME, or HERE! then for now he should be on lead, so that if he does not come the very first time you call, and relatively quickly, you go to him and bring him to where you want him to be, every single time. 

Rudy SIT! give him a moment, if he doesn't then help him get into the position you want and then praise, good sit. 

Treats are ok to teach the dog what you want, and then, to get the best response, give them only for the best effort. But in the beginning you can be much more free with them.

You need to mark good behavior positively and quickly. If you are talking to your neighbor and you call the dog, Rudy Come, and the neighbor asks you a question, and Rudy has come and is looking at you, do not continue your conversation and ignore the dog, tell the dog, Good boy, and pet or treat and then continue your conversation. 

You have to mark positive behavior immediately in the beginning. As the dog improves, you can start stringing behaviors together and then praise. 

I do not like to let any command of mine be ignored. If I say OFF! then the dog needs to get off of me or off of the bet, etc. If they do not, no way am I going to walk away -- that is teaching the dog to ignore me. Instead, I will say, Eh-eH! and point to the position I want the dog in, off the bed or off of me and wait until they comply with that, if necessary I will put a leash on the dog and compel the dog off the bed, or bump the dog with my knee to get them to jump down off of me. 

The best way to get them not to jump on you is to not allow it at all. I choose to allow it for my own reasons, but I train them to come HUPP! or get OFF!. 

You need to follow through. 
Give a command once, then help the dog.

I don't like the way I read that you are forcibly removing the dog from furniture and the dog nipped you. This is concerning. If necessary, put a leash on the dog, but do not grab the dog and remove it from the furniture. If OFF! does not work, limit access to the furniture for a while until you can train that. You should be able to control the dog with your voice and not manhandle the dog to get it off of things.

The dog sounds fine. It WANTS to engage with you, otherwise it would not mouth you. Training, Play, Exercise, are all ways to engage with your dog and build the bond. Train in obedience, yes, but also train tricks and games. Keep it light and fun. 

Do not sit there and work on sit and down for 15 minutes. That will be terrible. 

Instead, repeat each thing no more than 3 times in a row. Break it up. SIT, Good boy. 
WATCH ME, Good boy. 
SIT, STAY (pivot in front of the dog) Good boy!
DOWN. Good.

SIT, 
HEEL (Back up and call)FRONT, and SIT (dog sits in front) Good boy. 
FINISH -- teach the dog to return to the heel position and sit. 

Now, heavy on the treats and teach him to shake or give you his paw. 

Do a sit and a down and then try to get him to stay for 5 or 10 seconds, then back. 

Now go ahead and thrown the ball for him a few times. good. 

Back to getting him to stay while you walk around him, Good. 

Put a line on hm, tell him to stay and walk a little further away. If he breaks the stay, then put him back and stay closer (do not have treats in your hand for this exercise). If he doesn't break, pause then call him to you. Lavish praise if he comes. 

Start and end each session with something fun.


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## BrandyGalos (Aug 4, 2014)

Welcome to Doggie Adolescence! 

They key, IMHO, is to remember that "this too shall pass" and then your sweet , sweet puppy's brain will return.

I find lots of play is important, both with people and other dogs. I don't think I could make it through a dog's second year of life without lots and lots of trips to the dog park. A tired dog is a well behaved dog. 

Although it is hard, I would try not to read too much into many of your dog's actions right now. What seems impossible to teach him today, he will just suddenly know in a few months. It is better not to get into fights for the next six months. Unfortunately you can not ignore the bad issues, but I think it helps to keep things in perspective of a short term problem. 

Beside having to roll the dog once or twice, I generally spend a bunch of time clicker training at this phase. It is excellent and helping the dog to understand the rules behind the training game, but I tend to drop it once they get that. I can't say that I think much of the "No Free Lunch" tough love, although it seems like a normal parental response to adolescence for both man and beast. It seems to me to be based on bribery at it's very core and I want willing and voluntary compliance from my dogs because it is the pack thing to do. However, I am not there and sometimes one needs to roll with their trainer's advice. 

Good luck!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sounds like your dog has pretty much run the show up till now, nothing that can't be changed. The trainer has you on the right path, but as someone mentioned earlier, you might want a treat with more value than kibble, especially helpful getting through any of the tougher problems you may encounter. Engagement was also mentioned and I second this too, get animated, be exciting, your dog will focus and enjoy training that much more. You can have a different dog soon, just stay consistent.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Thank you all for the encouragement and information. I am glad to know that this will most likely be something we will overcome with work, training, patience and love. I do very much agree that we did not work him enough. I did not know enough when we got him about training and working the mind of a dog. So I really fell behind in this aspect. I have talked to a few trainers so far and all have told me the mouthing is a sign of dominance. And I should either put in crate for 10 seconds until calm and ask to sit before letting out or to do a mimick of a bite/pinch and make a sound to get his attention and if that doesn't work then to grab his head and look him in the eyes until he looks away. We are very unsure of using the crate as a punishment as he really likes his crate and we don't want to make this a bad place for him. Is it ok to do the mimik bite and if he doesn't stop then to grasp his head and look into his eyes until he looks away? 

Luckily he is not all that bad. He is amazing with our 2 young children. He does not jump up at all (and we will not be teaching him too). He is a pretty quick learner and picks things up well. He learned sit and down in just 2 days and come in 3 days.

I would also like to know how I can train him to look at me during walks when another dog goes by. If we have the prong collar on and are walking briskly he is pretty good to walk past but I don't have his attention. And if we are walking slow he gets really excited and pulls, he also does this for squirrels, birds, anything small animal running. I really want to train him to go use on me and look at me. I started trying to train him on the word "look" to look at me and then get a great but I feel like he isn't getting it. Any suggestion? 

Thanks


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Are you sure the mouthing is a dominance thing and not just a rude attempt to engage you in play? Are the trainers seeing the dog do this?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

from our discussion yesterday it seems like the pup was very independent pretty much the day you got him . Right?

The dog is show lines , I don't know why he was represented as being working , which is what you expected. Right?

From what you said the dog is very destructive in the house . ? 

Fresh start. Better management is necessary. 

I would use the crate as constructive confinement - prevention for some of the furniture chewing and other trouble he gets himself in to.
The mouthing needs to stop . You said it hurts you . You are not his toy.

"He is not to be on the beds or furniture for 1 month because he nipped me a couple weeks back when I tried to get him off my side of the bed. "

No teeth on you. Period. 

"So currently we are with a trainer working one on one"

Is the trainer good? What is their experience and track record. What have they achieved. If you want to PM me the name I'll check it out. 

Is it the trainers advice to "not to be on the beds or furniture for 1 month " because it may be fine to use this on the kids , or the teen , as in you're grounded , but a dog wouldn't understand the concept whatsoever .

Dog get off , now , good boy. Clear ask (pressure on) , immediate response, immediate praise (pressure off). No begging or bribing or negotiating. 

Do you want him on the furniture. 

Make your house rules clear and consistent. Black or white , can or cannot . This builds trust in you , helps beginning a bond . 
this " He is better now that I've been forcibly removing him from furniture the last 2 weeks " shows that the dog doesn't understand that you may not want him on there . 
The management should be that he is out when you are able to give the dog undivided attention . Maybe when the kids are napping or with Dad . You keep your eye on him , the moment that he looks at the bed or the sofa or puts a paw on , its a No! Before he gets on.

that's a beginning for you


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Yes he is very independent. He isn't really one to sit and be pet unless he is very tired. He has always wanted and enjoyed his own downtime. 

I think his mouthing is a bit of both. He does it when he is bored and wants to play, when he is excited, or when you ask him to do something he doesn't want to do (eg. Get of couch and when I go to pull collar he will mouth my hand, or if I use my hand to gently move him if he is standing in my way). But even if he wants to play he should not be mouthing to get that and I'd like to teach him to do something else when he wants to play. 

I was told his siblings were going for working, 1 for show and the other for companion/possible breeding. We did not talk much on this and at the time I had thought I'd asked in depth questions but looking back I didn't really know what I was looking for. The sir and dam had sch and bite work as well as other titles but I thought bite work, etc. was a working line aspect.

He was very destructive when he was younger. He would eat our drywall. We had crated him from a pup and when he was about 7-8 months old we thought we would let him out but he tore up 3 of our walls and our tile floor. He also like to eat our pillows. He was a huge chewer as a puppy and would bite anything. He will eat any cardboard we have out or plastic bottles, kids toys, bites our grates / almost sharpens his teeth on them (some of this is that they are cold and it's hot here so he likes his mouth on it). He would also scratch our floors when he was a puppy (thank goodness he has hopefully grown out of this.

We do not use the crate for punishment being on furniture, for furniture I give him a look, say off and direct him off to his bed where I then tell him to "sit or down" on his bed. The crate is to be used for the mouthing or when he just stands in front of you barking at you wanting your attention. And no I do not mean a bark to go out for a pee, it's a bark when he wants you to amuse him or do something for him. 

It's not like we chain him up or just let him run in the backyard. He gets either 2 split walks a day or one long walk. All walks equal 60 min or more. Plus he gets 15 min of training time in the morning and 5/10 at night. The training is a new thing though. We also throw sticks in the backyard when we have the time. It's been a little harder lately to do that though as we has to cut down one of our trees and to do that we had to take part of our fence apart. We are waiting for the rest of the tree to be cleaned and dug before we put the fence back together again. So there is a 10 ft gap. So we don't take him out a lot lately for that.

We have noticed he bark lately at a lot of noises outside. Even when my partner and I are unconcerned by the noise. We have started to train a "quite" command by saying "quite" when he barks and then praising him when he stops. 

What do you mean by he is out when the kids nap/sleep. I would really not wish to crate him all day just to have him out for a few hours.

Although he sometimes will move a couple meters to be by himself he also will be right beside us a lot too. 

What do you mean by pressure on, pressure off?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that really is not normal - which is what I said yesterday.
You are lucky he hasn't hit a live wire , or pulled plumbing out of the wall. 

this "I was told his siblings were going for working" knowing the lines I don't think so -- unless they meant schutzhund , but even there , probably not .

by the way is there a schutzhund club in your area.

ask your trainer what their qualifications are -- I did not see any. Even the goal of the class , they are not equipped for this dog who now or always had some issues.

He sounds a bit easily stimulated .

All the exercises in training that you have done are static. Sit , down , stay. Unpalatable -- dog will zone out or avoid .

He needs action in training with you in charge. 

When your kids are awake they distract you with their needs . You can't keep the old eagle eye on the dog and he will slip into some negative behaviour and get away with it. No point in getting angry after or trying to do something about it after . No point at all in the you're grounded ! 
So when someone else can share in the childrens activities then the other can pay attention to the dog , or put the dog up (kennel/ crate) and then bring him out for 10 , 15 , 20 minutes of intensive interaction , throughout the day . Long walk WITH obedience and focus . Play which you begin and you end . Be in charge.
End when the dog is high , not when the dog is flagging or tired or bored. Put him up kennel or crate --- then the next time he comes out he will look forward to doing something with you . He has to rely on you , he can't amuse himself with nonsense activity.

Pressure on , pressure off means you are on his case , he has to comply , the moment that he shows the inclination to comply some of your pressure reduces till he has done what is asked and then there is no pressure , REWARDS .


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

so a club is good for this situation but wasn't for mine. so much hypocrisy on this board.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

We have (as far as I know) absolutely nothing around us. Accept the grey bruce kennel club, but even that is a distance. The one thing we do host annually is the grey bruce kennel club show, which is going on now. We went today and spoke to a trainer/behavioural therapy (he is the one who recommended the mimic bite and if it doesn't work to hold the dogs head and look into its eye until the dog looks away). I am planning to go back to the show tomorrow to talk more and hopefully see more trainers.

Our GSD is very friendly though. He does not growl at anyone, meets new people cautiously but warms up quickly. We make sure he gets to meet new people, and dogs. He is not dog aggressive. He (with our cautious eye) gets pet by strangers and plays with other dogs. Although other male dogs can sometimes be aggressive towards him. This is why he was neutered as well as why we do not go to dog parks anymore and have not gone back for about 6 months now.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

We have also been leaving him uncreated the last couple weeks while we are out and he has not done any damage to anything yet. So I am hoping it was just a puppy/socializing stage. Although 2 days ago he did get our pillow from the couch. So today he was crated again.

I hope I have not made any mistakes here. Is search and rescue a working dog? One or 2 siblings were going for search and rescue, his other for show dog, and one for companion/breeding. Not sure where the others went though.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I have found online clicker training courses through the Karen Pryor academy helpful. The Fenzi dog sports school is also good, from what I hear, although I haven't tried it ( yet).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lalachka said:


> so a club is good for this situation but wasn't for mine. so much hypocrisy on this board.


relax , no one is recommending a club for her to do schutzhund . She lives in an area where there are not a lot of trainers . The one she has I don't believe is of much help to her. At least members of the schutzhund club may be more savy of other trainers , even basic obedience trainers.

sheesh - hypocrisy ? no! custom tailored answer ? yes .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

seems everyone and their brother is doing SAR , but often it is sar-like for recreation , not for certification and real work.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

even if the OP wanted to belong to schutzhund , if they will have her and the dog , to do other exercises , at least lalachaka , this dog is predictable , and has no issues lunging at people or acting inappropriately aggressive .

is this read on the dog correct OP? 

the dog is just a bit of a wild-child


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Yes. He is very much a spirited child. I do not see any full out aggression in him at all. He goes up to people on the street with his tail wagging, a little cautious but happy and is great to be pet. He also loves other dogs and does well with them. He will pull sometimes to get to them but never in an attack way. More of a I can't wait to go say hi, we could be best friends lol. 

The reason I am wanting proper training is that I myself need to know how to train, be the alpha and make my dog feel more comfortable and respect me more. A lot of it has to do with me needing proper advice and showing how to do it ( I am a very hands on person and need this to learn, just listening over phone can be hard for me to understand and I don't always pick everything up from videos) so this makes my location really sucky for any help because we are a small place. And some of it is just that Kato is very spirited and has not had the proper training to keep him in line. Although I think some of it came from maybe not being fully socialized as a puppy when he came to us. As some behaviours just seemed of when he was a puppy. But at the time we just figured it was a normal GSD personality and didn't look into it further until recently when we found out it is not normal behaviour . Hence looking for a trainer.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

As for feeding him with something more special other than kibble

1. He does really well with his kibble, so far. We take a large handful from his daily food morning and night, to work with him with. So far he has been very attentive.

2. He has what we believe to be a weak stomach/intestine. If he is fed to many treats or different food he gets diarrhea very easily. He has always been this way. As a puppy when he was about a few months old he started getting diarrhea and it wouldn't go away. We were back and forth from the vets for months. They tried a few different things, did tests, but couldn't find what was causing it. We finally found pills that would work and his bowel movements would harden again while he was on them but would go back to diarrhea days after he was off. Finally it just went away after months of being on and off the pills. But to this day he still has episodes (much smaller ones that do not last very long). 

He also had a hernia removed which is part of why we got him neutered so early, so we could do both at once instead of 2 operations.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay, I don't know these trainers so you have to do your own due diligence . Saugeen shores is about 45 minutes to an hour for you from your location. 
Check these people out Unleash The Pawsitive | About Us - Unleash The Pawsitive

might be good .


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Carmspack. She said when he mouths to have everyone leave the room for 10/15 seconds and come back as though it never happened and to do that every time. She so said she does not believe in dominance and that it is just a big trainer myth. That the only dominance that can be shown is over food, mating and sleeping but any other issue is not dominance. So she truly believes as long as you control food, sleep and mating no dog will have/show dominance.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what a bunch of junk !


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think dominance theory is way over done. When a trainer is telling you that you need to be the alpha or that the dog is showing dominance, it is usually time to try another trainer. 

The fact that there are some dogs that tend to be more dominant than others is an excuse to apply it to every dog out there, and human nature kind of compels us to believe our dog is worse, more, whatever than the average. 

Mouthing is not a sign of dominance. It is generally something that dog's started as a puppy and they learned that they got what they wanted when they did it. Whether that was a reaction out of you, or taken out, or whatever. 

What you need to do is TEACH your dog to be gentle with your fingers. Teach him, Eh! when he mouths. Praise him when he desists. But I do believe that the mouthing is him trying to engage with you. 

You got to wonder why humans and canines tend to hook up so well. A dog's idea of a good time, is to run together, bumping off of each other, and grabbing at each other with their teeth. A human's idea of a good time is to pet the dog, hug the dog, snuggle with the dog. Some dogs are really in tune with their person, and seem to know when a nudge on the hand, lets the human know they are there to provide the comfort that petting or scritching them will provide for the human. Some dogs never attain this level of tuning to a human. But, while young, the dog needs a relationship that comes a little closer to the canine model for a good time, than what a lot of humans are willing to do. No, don't get down on your knees and chase after your dog biting him. Of course not. But, you have to get out there with him and engage in stuff that really works him mind and body. Tug, hike, run, chase, etc. Play, exercise, and training -- the fruits of this is control over the dog/bonding. 

Some dogs are mouthier than others. You can teach them to never put a tooth on you. You can use negative markers, "EH! No bite!" put your hands in your pockets, and totally ignore any attempts of him to try and engage with you from 20 or 30 minutes -- worst case scenario. For less rude mouther's you can teach a GENTLE command, and then remind him if he starts to mouth -- "eh! Gentle with my fingers."

Whatever you do, you need to be consistent and follow through. I would not use a crate for being mouthy. By the time you get the dog to the crate, he has no clue what the problem even is, and you are then using the crate for punishment, and he will not like it. 

I prefer a baby-gate approach. If the dog simply cannot contain his insanity, send him through the baby gate, and stay on the other side for a while. But the thing is, if he gets mouthy and crazy, it means you haven't given him the amount and the kind of mental and physical stimulation he needs up to that point. For example, if he is mouthy and crazy at 1PM, then, tomorrow, take him out for a walk in the morning, and then around 12:00 go out there and play hard with him chase or tug, and let him tire himself out. 

Some dogs will act up some if they are over-tired, and then time for bed may be the only thing to do. But usually, a tired pup is a good puppy. 

The dog I got back a couple of months ago, is a mouther -- not aggressive at all. But he does want to play. He wants to engage. He just turned 18 months old. I have had his sister all along. She does not mouth at all. Is it because the people that had the boy somehow enabled his mouthing, or is it because he is just wired that way? I don't know. But it doesn't hurt. It is a little sloppy. But we will work on this habit. I do not see it as dominance at all though. 

Independence is something that you should almost expect in the breed. Some have it to a greater extent than others, but to properly herd sheep, the dogs need to work with the shepherd, and they need to solve problems independently as well. When you have a dog that tends to be more on the independent side, you need to find ways to use his intelligence to solve problems. And you need to make coming to you, working with you, more rewarding. I don't think there is anything wrong with a shepherd who is ok being across the room or even down he hall, they know where you are, everyone is ok. They can amuse themselves with their toys, or lie on the bed without being underfoot. Oh yeah, being underfoot is also supposedly a sign of dominance.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> relax , no one is recommending a club for her to do schutzhund . She lives in an area where there are not a lot of trainers . The one she has I don't believe is of much help to her. At least members of the schutzhund club may be more savy of other trainers , even basic obedience trainers.
> 
> sheesh - hypocrisy ? no! custom tailored answer ? yes .


always relaxed. that was the reason I was looking for a club too. said 5 times I'm not interested in bite work. need people that know about aggression since the trainers I've seen aren't helping.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> even if the OP wanted to belong to schutzhund , if they will have her and the dog , to do other exercises , at least lalachaka , this dog is predictable , and has no issues lunging at people or acting inappropriately aggressive .
> 
> is this read on the dog correct OP?
> 
> the dog is just a bit of a wild-child


mine plays with a chihuahua for a year already. so? and turned out if wasn't the dog after all, it was all me. 

I'm not derailing another thread. was just wondering on the reasons.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one dog basically socially sound , the other one not .
You did not need to do aggression to find out about your dogs unpredictable lunging at people , then hiding behind you when your trainer confronts the dog . Mildly.

For the lack of trainers in her area I directed her to asking around at a schutzhund club to see if they knew of some talent in her area. 

I have resources in the area - but they wouldn't do personally owned dogs , but I can ask them about quality trainers.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> one dog basically socially sound , the other one not .
> You did not need to do aggression to find out about your dogs unpredictable lunging at people , then hiding behind you when your trainer confronts the dog . Mildly.
> 
> For the lack of trainers in her area I directed her to asking around at a schutzhund club to see if they knew of some talent in her area.
> ...


socially sound but bites the owner when told to get off the furniture. 
I needed people that understand aggression to explain why it's happening and what to do about it. 
turned out he's not aggressive or nervy. just has a sucky handler. how much longer would I be on forums asking for help if I listened to you and didn't go there?

trainer thought he was neutral. i thought he was hiding. 

funny, I'm told over and over on this forum that I'm clueless but then everyone jumps to take my word over trainer's when it comes to things that might prove their point.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Not to be in any way rude lalashka but he does not bite. He has never agressiy bitten anyone. He mouths. Sometimes he mouths a little harder but he never actually grabs on and hold or does one bite and backs off. It is a continual mouthing. From what I have learned there is a difference to mouthing and biting.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

And as for today.... I am completely confused.... Went to our local dog show to talk to some breeders and trainers, some do behavioural, others do obedience, some just have their own dogs they train, etc. everyone had a different way of etching dogs and got me more. Infused than before. 

One trainer / behaviourist believes in semi harsh harsh correction but swears by it working with harder dogs and it transforms them. He puts mouse traps on beds, couches, counters, so when dog tried to get up and it goes "snap" it scares the dog and after a while it no longer tries to get up. Believes in grabbing dogs cheeks and looking into eyes until they look away.

Another trainer / behaviourist believes in no harsh corrections. When dog is mouthing leave your hand there for it to bite and ignore, dog will eventually give up and stop. or when it's barking you ignore it until it stops. If dog is on couch you say "your not suppose to be on there off" and walk away, if dog is still on couch when you come back in you get a great to get him off and praise when he gets off. If your in room with dog and it tries to get up you push it down and it only comes up when you ask it to. 

Another trainer believes to teach dogs a lot like horses. If your out for a walk and dog tries to get in front of you, you use your body to push them black behind you because they feel the most comfortable behind you. If he is mouthing me the. I should do "ack" and grab a little sling on his back area and twist so that he knows what he is doing is wrong.

Another trainer believes in harsh correction. She said if he is mouthing to flock the end of his nose and when out on walk when he gets ahead of me to click the leash to get a correction. Grab cheeks and look into eyes until they look away.

Another trainer told me to have him lay down beside me and if he tries to get up then push him back down into lay position until he lays beside you for a full 30 min without getting up. They also believe in the grabbing cheeks and looking into eyes until they look away. 

So I ended up very over loaded today and have no idea where to start or who might have the best information.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD Owner in Training :-) said:


> Not to be in any way rude lalashka but he does not bite. He has never agressiy bitten anyone. He mouths. Sometimes he mouths a little harder but he never actually grabs on and hold or does one bite and backs off. It is a continual mouthing. From what I have learned there is a difference to mouthing and biting.


I was going by your words. you used the words biting, nipping and mouthing. 
ok, he mouths when told to get off furniture.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

My apologies then. I did not word it properly. He does not bite he does a little aggressive mouthing at times and other times playful mouthing. He never pinches our skin just scrapes his teeth against it. And it is only hands and lower arms that he does this to and only adults, never children.


On an amazingly good note. I just took him for a 25 min walk and did the quick turn and walk in the other direction when he gets to the point of almost pulling. This is considered stern correction because we use the prongs so it gives him a little snap when I turn and walk the other way. But after about 10min he was a charm on the leash. Only had a couple more incidences but was amazing compared to other walks. Much better than the stop and go.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

What do you think is a better correction for pulling on the leash. Turning around quickly so it gives him a little pop and he has to come back to your side as you walk in the other direction. Or giving the leash a little whip when he gets far enough ahead of you, making his prong collar tighten a bit as a correction and he slows down. Both enclose a pop of some sort. It is harder to tell which one gives a harder pop (as is prefer to give a lesser pop) and which one works the best overall?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Not sure if you're asking me but I turn around. And the pop shouldn't be slight, it should be noticeable. 
If you pop and then keep going he might not understand what he's being popped for. I've done that before and a trainer saw it and said he has no idea why he's being popped, probably thinks it's just part of the walk.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Was asking in general for anyone but really liked your response. Always so afraid to do some of the things people tells to try for fear of being to aggressive. Always prefer to be shown. So I probably do the pop to lightly right now and would be better to soothe turning around, at least until I talk to a trainer about it. Thank you for the info lalashka.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Actually, I think you're worrying to much. Do what you think is right. He will get better. One of the traits of a german shepherd is being stand offish. GSDs are extremely intelligent. He will get it. Stop stressing. Treat him good. he will respond.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lalachka said:


> mine plays with a chihuahua for a year already. so? and turned out if wasn't the dog after all, it was all me.
> 
> I'm not derailing another thread. was just wondering on the reasons.


lalachka you derailed one thread , then had your own , which amounted to the dog being called nervy and a maniac by yourself and you coming out and saying you don't trust any trainers anyway . Here is that thread in case dog-owner-in-training wants to review it .
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...gly/474730-aggression-stuff-about-my-dog.html

Advise is different because the dogs are very different.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my first dog, my first GSD. learning as I go. 
I'm sure I misread him many times. I will learn though and he will be impeccably trained. 

it doesn't matter who I trust. why do YOU trust me over the trainers?

I have over 40 videos on my youtube channel. check out my maniac in public. 
I have high standards, some people would be posting threads bragging if they were in my place. it's all perception.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Carmen, reading through these posts, you kind of come across like someone who is an elder trying to keep a teenager in line, but specifically Lalachka. I think mods are the ones that volunteer to smack around, the unruly masses. Sometimes, even when some people are more experienced than other people, it can be hard to take. As for derailing the thread, if she makes a comment or two about her own dogs, that does not derail. When someone else comes in and points out how wrong she is or why her comment doesn't fit, or why they give other advice to different posters and then tell her not to derail other people's threads -- that is where the derailment occurs.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

If we let him mouth as a puppy and he is doing it now, then it is not necessarily a sign of dominance as more than a habit? Is that correct or wrong? Same with him pulling on the leash a bit during walks, it's not a sign of dominance if he has always done it and we had just never corrected it until now?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GSD Owner in Training :-) said:


> If we let him mouth as a puppy and he is doing it now, then it is not necessarily a sign of dominance as more than a habit? Is that correct or wrong? Same with him pulling on the leash a bit during walks, it's not a sign of dominance if he has always done it and we had just never corrected it until now?


Neither are signs of dominance. Very puppy like behavior.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD Owner in Training :-) said:


> If we let him mouth as a puppy and he is doing it now, then it is not necessarily a sign of dominance as more than a habit? Is that correct or wrong? Same with him pulling on the leash a bit during walks, it's not a sign of dominance if he has always done it and we had just never corrected it until now?


Yeah, well, the thing is, I don't believe either issue is a sign of dominance. Will a dominant dog do these things? Maybe. Will a dominant dog pee? Is peeing a sign of dominance? Actually, it could be. But sometimes it is just the need to relieve the bladder. Peeing to mask another dog's scent and to put his down, could be a sign that he is wanting to be the king of the mountain. And mouthing could be just a habit he has learned to get a result that he wanted. And pulling on the leash could be a desire to get away, a desire to see everything, a desire to move at a more reasonable pace for a GSD, or just because he has never been taught to walk properly on a lead. 

I think we are way to wrapped up in the dominant dog theory. It's like submissive dogs can't have less than desirable behaviors, except for peeing. 

Dogs are smart, they know that you have the resources, and that you walk on two legs, and are a human. There are dogs out there that challenge their human owners, or need to be shown that their owner is worthy of respect before they will choose to obey them. This is not the norm. In fact, these dogs are really not typical at all. And in the wrong hands, these dogs can be downright unmanageable -- not talking about mouthing or pulling on the lead here. I am talking about dangerous, stitches, etc -- not typical.

Yes dogs can be more dominant than other dogs and still be perfectly normal to you as their human. But, most of what we complain about when it comes to dogs is really not a symptom of that. It is simply a lack of training in basic management, and allowing bad behavior to become a habit. 

Gosh when these puppies come home, they must be really weirded out by we humans who are grilling them every moment to see if we can detect signs of dangerous dominance in them.

Oh and the other thing is stubbornness. Dogs are not stubborn. They aren't. People think their dog is stubborn. It isn't. Dogs either understand what you are communicating to them or they don't. If they don't then we view them as stubborn, and we increase our volume or add a correction. The dog increases his confusion or adds fear with it, and may shut down, and they may react. It isn't stubbornness. It is an inability to communicate effectively and that is on us. They may have been taught to ignore us. That is on us too.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

So I'm really excited/happy. I don't know if maybe I just wasn't picking up on everything or not but Kato is doing much better. We've got things down to more of a schedual. He goes out at 6:30am for either a 30min walk or ball throw, then he goes out between 1/2 pm for a 20/30 min ball throw, at 4:30/5 he goes for a 45/60 min walk and when we get home at about 5:30ish he gets his big kong stuffed with frozen treats and Greek plain yougurt in it (which takes him about 1 to 2 hours to get through, along with small training sessions through the day. He still has issues listening to some of my commands and usually wants a treat out of it, but he's much more loveable and he ALMOST (we ignore him when he does and he stops) never mouths anymore. Now if only I can teach hubby not to work him up inside so he knows inside is a calm place (not that I should complain as he's always been a relatively calm dog, I'd say 75% calm inside and 25% puppy inside sometimes) lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what happened to this OP "gsd owner in training" ?


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