# To "E" or not to "E" (Vitamin E, that is)



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Looking for input on whether other whole prey raw feeders supplement with Vitamin E and if you do, what is your reasoning? I've been supplementing with Fish Oil for a while and have run across people who say you MUST also supplement E with fish oil for absorption of the Omega. Others say that a whole prey feeding model provides all the Vitamin E that is needed. 

What do you do? And why?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Their bodies, and ours, use Vit E to process the O3. If you feed extra fish oil, then I would add 400IU of Vit E daily to put what is used back into their system. Vit E is not water soluble so make sure you don't give to much. 400 IU is the commonly recommended dosage. I think Lin posted that she gives 800 but I'm not sure on that.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Right, when you give omega's it will deplete the dogs natural production of E. If you aren't giving them, then don't supplement with E. It isn't so much absorbtion concern as a depletion of E. Some fish oils have E included, so reading labels is important. I prefer to go with pure salmon oil.
And I agree, 400iu daily or every other day is all that is needed.


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> I think Lin posted that she gives 800 but I'm not sure on that.


Yep, I give Tessa 800 and recommend it for dogs with arthritis or other inflammatory conditions that are on large amounts of omega 3s. Tessa also gets 3x the amount of omega 3s that Emma gets, Emma only gets 400iu of vit E.


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Alternative Medicine for Dogs


> Vitamin E is an important nutrient which has been shown to have a number of physiologic and pharmacologic effects. It in a potent antioxidant and reduces fat oxidation and increases the production of HDL cholesterol. At higher doses, it also reduces cyclooxygenase and lipooxygenase activities, decreasing production of prostaglandins and leukotreines. As such, it is a potent anti-inflammatory drug. It will reduce platelet function and prolong the bleeding time slightly in healthy individuals. There is no known side-effects to vitamin E at levels less than 4000-6000 IU per day (except in cats, where levels >100 IU/day can create hepatolipidosis). I recommend that vitamin E be given to all dogs. For dogs under 2 years of age, give 400 IU of vitamin E daily. *For dogs over 2 years of age, give 800 IU of vitamin E daily.*


Benefits of Vitamin E and Salmon Oil in Dogs | eHow.com


> Vitamin E is fat soluble and a very potent antioxidant. It reduces fat oxidation and raises production of HDL cholesterol. Vitamin E has been linked to improved circulation, preventing cataracts, improved immune function and slowing the aging process. *At higher doses, vitamin E performs as a powerful anti-inflammatory by decreasing production of prostaglandins and leukotrienes*. Vitamin E is added to most dry pet foods, but it degrades quickly once the bag is opened. Therefore, vitamin E must be supplemented. Give dogs two years and under 400 IU per day. *Provide 800 IU of vitamin E per day to dogs over 2 years old.*


Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Dogs


> There are no known Vitamin E toxicities in the dog and cat. Fed even at huge levels, no interruption of bodily functions has been demonstrated. Recommendations on the daily dose are highly variable depending on the source.


These are just a couple things I pulled up real fast. Basically there is no medical reason to shy away from higher dosages. I also supplement Tessa's vitamin A. Vitamin E acts as an antioxidant and anti inflammatory, as well as being used up by Omega 3s which act as an anti inflammatory. So she gets 800iu every day. Emma who has no inflammatory health conditions gets 400iu.


----------



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Interesting...not one person here replied that they did NOT give Vitamin E because they felt their dog got enough of it via their diet. There are a few folks in one of the Raw Feeding Groups I'm on who are .... ahem....VERY vocal about Vitamin E supplements being nonsense for a whole prey-fed animal. Interesting how a very vocal few can seem like an army.

Thanks, everyone!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay . Vitamins are best sourced from real whole food , and not as an isolate.
Vitamin E to start this post , when isolate form can be natural or synthetic.
Synthetic Vitamin E is a product of petroleum. Not food.
If you see the letters dl- prefix you are informed that this is the synthetic form. Simply put the body is able to absorb natural much better. The molecular structure is different and the body, liver specifically, will tend to select the natural over the synthetic. There is something to "body intelligence".
Natural E, d-alpha tocopherol, is the most biologically available form of E.
Does this mean that the synthetic form has no benefit ? The answer is that it can be beneficial but research has shown that it takes three to four times the dosage to have the same effect AND that when tissue samples were taken it took much much longer to show presence of E . That is an important fact for something person or animal to be in some critical need of high antioxidant . That includes cancer patients for instance. You want to make use of any time . The natural form of E , was found in the blood (first location) then in the liver tissue , and fat where it is stored , within a short time - , whereas the synthetic took -- creating example here , one month for natural , one YEAR and one half for synthetic).
E is sensitive to oxygen so it is unlikely that the bag of dog food which states that it uses E as a "natural" preservative will have any value left. In addition they would use the cheapest form , which is synthetic. So you decide how health giving that is.
Not only that vitamin E whose function it is as an antioxidant to protect the fatty acids within the cells, including red blood , from free , oxidizing (essentially rusting) radicals . When you provide real Vitamin C at the same time , the C indirectly affects oxidation in the fatty layers of the cells by converting oxidized vitamin E bck to its antioxidant form. 
So if relying on kibble for a vitamin E supply a little natural C will help somewhat.
Then there are tocotrienols, sourced from rice bran and palm nuts , which is showing to be even more interesting than Vitamin E particularly in the study of cancer prevention.
Our oxygen is changing . City smog , pollution, ozone create lung damaging oxidation. One reason to be up on your Vitamin E. Dogs working in urban situations have their air supply right at the tail pipe level breathing it all in .

So what are the FOOD sources of Vitamin E . Sunflower, almond, spirulina (very rich source !! of E and beta carotene another antioxidant) , barley grass, alfalfa greens (many greens superfoods are a combination of spirulina, barley grass and alfalfa) , split cell chorella , rosehips. .....
Those that have horses will be very familiar with rice bran oil. That is an excellent natural source of vitamin E and tocotrienols . Recently I have seen rice bran oil taking more shelf space at the health food stores with good reason .
I know these things as part of the years of research that I put in to Feed-Sentials. Every Saturday I field these very questions . 

Try to get your Vitamins Minerals from FOOD .

xxxxxx slightly changing topic but very much related.

Temperament , stress , and heightened need for antioxidants.

Stress creates oxidative chaos. The more the animal is stressed the greater the need for assistance for heatlh promotion . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Carmen, this is in the BARF/Raw section, we are not talking about kibble here. And the OP feeds prey model and most likely is not feeding any greens etc along with it because she lists supplementing Omega 3s. These things are quite important to the original question.


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

I give vit e mostly to protect against free radicals that go along with feeding our high fat raw diets. Penny is 75# and gets 400 i/u day.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lin it does not matter . The molecular structure and function of E remains the same whether barf or kibble. How can something be prey model and not have greens? Omega 3's alpha linolenic acid (18 carbons) are plant based more or less nuts and seeds. DHA and EPA (long chain 20 carbons) are sourced from fish .
Alpha linolenic acid is an inactive form of DHA and EPA, conversion can occur but it requires a co-factor and even so is inefficient. Best to provide a source of Omega 3 and a source of direct , active DHA and EPA , fish oil , not cod liver oil , the oil from the flesh of a fatty fish such as herring and salmon (not farm raised).
If your diet is higher in Omega 6 , then the conversion to DHA and EPA are impaired.
Grain fed meat animals have a higher accumulation of omega 6 than their grass fed counter parts , including free ranging chickens.

Carmen


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

carmspack said:


> Lin it does not matter .


You repeatedly mention vitamin E in kibble, kibble preserved with vitamin E, and relying on kibble for vitamin E... If you are not feeding kibble, yes it very much matters and discussing vitamin E in/with kibble does not apply. 

I feed prey model raw and feed no greens, fruits, or vegetables. I feed just raw meat, bones, and organs. Prey model by definition is modeled after what a dog has digestively evolved to eat, which does not include hunting down leafy greens. 

I completely agree with you that vitamins and minerals are more bioavailable when they come from food. But I'm not going to suddenly start feeding my dogs barley grass, alfalfa greens etc. The problem lies in the meat not having been raised correctly and I'm not going to start feeding my dogs what the meat should have been fed to make up for it, that doesn't make much sense nutritionally either.


----------



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Would it be safe to assume, then, that if my dog was eating mostly wild game (ie, venison, elk) and pasture-raised beef that there would be no need to supplement Vitamin E?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lin I believe you are reading something wrong. I would never suggest that one feed kibble as a source of vitamin E . I did say that synthetic vitamin E is used in kibbled foods as a "natural" preservative , but there is little value left as the vitamin E would have oxidized , so in effect no real value, the opposite of that which you say I am claiming.

Prey model. Large commissioned study done in the USA called the Sperry study late 1920's to 1930's . Desparate times. Many rural dogs sent out to fend for themselves , mating with coyotes , and packs of hungry coyotes -- till there were so many that they became a problem. So there was a government approved bounty . To make the best of the situation this university got involved and gave an extra buck or two if the whole carcass was brought in .
The study wanted to determine just what these canids were eating so the study turned to examining full stomach contents.
Here is what the Sperry Study found after examining hundreds of feral / wild canids .

Majority of meat protein came from rabbits, ground hogs, squirrels , mice and rats (rodents). Only rarely a larger kill, domestic sheep, bovine , or deer .

That the subject canids ate rabbit and deer pellets -- digested greens .
That the subject canids ate cow patty and horse "apples" -- digested greens.

That when the canid ate the whole rabbit etc it also ate the digested grasses, herbaceous greens (seasonal) , barks, soft fruit, berries, haws, seeds , and digested seeds , insects in the birds that they ate.

They self selected to eat fermented wind fall apples and over ripe soft fruit and they all had an attraction to watermelon -- makes sense as these are filtered water resevoirs. They would eat insects and berries , eggs, and birds .

Some 80 years later Gerry Parker in his book Eastern Coyote , the story of its Success repeats the Sperry Study and finds exactly the same food stuffs in the stomach contents.

I have been feeding raw for over 27 years -- multi generations . 

Wolves never enjoyed the success that coyotes or dogs did. Part of the reason was that the wolf is a very specialized animal , whereas the coyote and dog were highly adaptable and flexible. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

carmspack said:


> Lin I believe you are reading something wrong. I would never suggest that one feed kibble as a source of vitamin E . I did say that synthetic vitamin E is used in kibbled foods as a "natural" preservative , but there is little value left as the vitamin E would have oxidized , so in effect no real value, the opposite of that which you say I am claiming.


No, thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying discussing vitamin E in or added to a kibble diet is irrelevant to the question being asked as the OP is not feeding kibble. 

As for the study... There have also been many more showing animals leaving the stomach and its contents. I will look at my saved links in the morning. But even when the contents ARE consumed, the key point is DIGESTED contents. Since carnivores lack the ability to break down cellulose they cannot access nutrition within plant walls. In fermentation, bacteria has done the job to start breaking down the food. You can't compare that to suggesting adding grasses to the diet of a carnivore. 

And natural forms of vitamin E supplementation is available, not only synthetic.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes I know there is naturally sourced Vitamin E available, which is why I said that when you see the prefix dl that identifies it as a synthetic petroleum by product form. 

Select the natural form for best results.

Carmen


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

vitacost.com sells natural Vit E at a very reasonable price. I've also read that there is no comparison to natural E. Bodies just are not able to absorb synthetic like they can natural.

NSI Natural Vitamin E -- 400 IU - 250 Softgels - Vitacost


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

subscribe to Dogs Naturally Magazine Dogs Naturally Magazine -- 

best source of any vitamin is from FOOD -- vitamin E , sunflowers seeds, pumpkin seeds, Red Palm Oil , unrefined Rice Bran oil - then you are getting complete natural E , 4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols .


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think tracychoi99 is a spammer, look at the signature, and why is s/he asking about supplements for humans on a dog board?


----------



## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

I think I am a member of that group because I was told it wasn't needed so I have not been giving it to my GSD's. I do give Grizzly Salmon Oil. I haven't had any problems. What would be signs of not getting enough Vitamin E?



DeeMcB said:


> Interesting...not one person here replied that they did NOT give Vitamin E because they felt their dog got enough of it via their diet. There are a few folks in one of the Raw Feeding Groups I'm on who are .... ahem....VERY vocal about Vitamin E supplements being nonsense for a whole prey-fed animal. Interesting how a very vocal few can seem like an army.
> 
> Thanks, everyone!


----------

