# Alpha Dogs Kennel



## Twyla

Owner of kennel transporting dogs that died en route to El Paso says his heart is broken | News - Home


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## Nigel

That's terrible, poor dogs. Mechanical things fail, this why people should make the checks as required, had the drver done so, this may have ended differently. We have alarms on everything at work, fuel tanks, high water, low water, you name it, but they all still have to be checked by human eyes. With lives on the line, you don't skip steps.


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## David Winners

This is a kennel I worked for until last December. I'm physically ill. 

Thanks for posting this. Time to make some calls.

David Winners


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## onyx'girl

Horrid, no excuses for such a tragedy


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## wolfstraum

Poor poor dogs.....such a terrible tragedy.....

look at how many police K9s die in cars - and they aren't left for 22 hours... he would have had to check at exactly the right time when the AC quit to know....horrible...

:rip: 

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

Regular checks could have prevented the deaths of at least some of the dogs. 

This was negligent behavior on the part of the driver it sounds like.

Time is money as they say......

Poor dogs.


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## arycrest

Terrible ... so very sad. You would think the driver would have checked on them as he was supposed to AND that there would be some type of alarm system to indicate that a malfunction had happened.


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## Mrs.K

22 hours...that was no accident, that is neglect and on the driver. Plain and simple! 

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## David Winners

I haven't heard from the guys that were actually in the truck yet. No surprise.

A few of my buddies contacted me and said they had just been let go from the company. Guys that had been there for many years. I think things are turning south for VLK. I'm glad I left when I did.

So sad for the dogs. What a horrible fate.

David Winners


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## Mrs.K

I think they have become too big, too fast. When something like this happens, it is very clear that it is no longer about the dogs. 

Also, David, you might have still been there when a good frien of mine went through the program. I know the whole Unit got the dogs from von Liche but the kennel was later dropped in favor of another, cheaper trainer. 

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## gsdsar

I have driven for many hours with dogs in the car. We stopped multiple times, just to air them. 

If the guy driving had made sure to actually take care if the dogs, meaning, letting the out every 6 hours, giving the water each time, this would NOT have happened. This is cruelty. Plain and simple. People should be fired. If the drivers had actually taken the time to care for the dogs, he would have noticed the system had failed. Plain and simple. Disgusted right now. 17 dogs, 10 dead. Means that 7 survived, means that there was plenty of time to detect a failure. Shocked. 


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## rgrey

I'm coming from the horse world so maybe its different in the dog world, but with horses every transport company I used or have heard about stops every 4 to 6 hours and checks the animals. Every 8 to 10 hours they stop somewhere and let them out of the trailer so they can move around. 

Wouldn't be the same for dogs? I mean, they'd need potty breaks at least! Horses can just go in the trailer but I would think most older dogs wouldn't go in their crates.


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## David Winners

Mrs.K said:


> I think they have become too big, too fast. When something like this happens, it is very clear that it is no longer about the dogs.
> 
> Also, David, you might have still been there when a good frien of mine went through the program. I know the whole Unit got the dogs from von Liche but the kennel was later dropped in favor of another, cheaper trainer.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If they were TEDD dogs, I know the dogs for sure, and may have been an instructor in your friend's class. Ask them if they know Ginger ;-)

David Winners


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## David Winners

rgrey said:


> I'm coming from the horse world so maybe its different in the dog world, but with horses every transport company I used or have heard about stops every 4 to 6 hours and checks the animals. Every 8 to 10 hours they stop somewhere and let them out of the trailer so they can move around.
> 
> Wouldn't be the same for dogs? I mean, they'd need potty breaks at least! Horses can just go in the trailer but I would think most older dogs wouldn't go in their crates.


It's the same for dogs. They are supposed to get them out for breaks. There was a trainer along on the trip, and not just a driver, so I can't understand how this could happen.

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

When I started the thread about the TV show and the kennel one of my concerns was the exponential growth of the operation. It seemed an unsustainable business model though some felt I was wrong. Dogs aren't the proverbial business product.... 'widgets' 

David W. I know this must be hard for you. Appreciate your posts.


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## Mrs.K

David Winners said:


> If they were TEDD dogs, I know the dogs for sure, and may have been an instructor in your friend's class. Ask them if they know Ginger ;-)
> 
> David Winners


Yes, they are all Tedd dogs. One unit got a pit bull which is the most favourite dog of them all because it is so rare to see them as mwd. 

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## David Winners

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, they are all Tedd dogs. One unit got a pit bull which is the most favourite dog of them all because it is so rare to see them as mwd.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Probably Taz. He's a great little dog. I have some great stories about him. He was in my class when I went through as a handler. I'll post a couple of pictures when I get to my laptop.

David Winners


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## David Winners

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, they are all Tedd dogs. One unit got a pit bull which is the most favourite dog of them all because it is so rare to see them as mwd.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> When I started the thread about the TV show and the kennel one of my concerns was the exponential growth of the operation. It seemed an unsustainable business model though some felt I was wrong. Dogs aren't the proverbial business product.... 'widgets'
> 
> David W. I know this must be hard for you. Appreciate your posts.


I feel bad for the dogs, and the trainers who gave up careers and opportunities elsewhere to work for VLK. 

David Winners


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## onyx'girl

If the trainers are good, they should have no problem with career opportunities elsewhere. Though not sure I'd put VLK on my resume....


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## David Winners

onyx'girl said:


> If the trainers are good, they should have no problem with career opportunities elsewhere. Though not sure I'd put VLK on my resume....


All the big overseas contracts that have been feeding the industry are going away. AMK9 with the ECPs on all the FOBs (hundreds of dogs, handlers, many trainers), VLK lost TEDD to K2, but that program goes away next year (300 dogs going to the Army, 15 trainers). All the contracting agencies are downsizing operations in the middle east. It's getting tight out there.

I'm back in the Army... not strictly because of the situation, but it was a big factor.

There are / were some great trainers at VLK, with decades of successful deployment experience and countless lives saved because of their efforts. I certainly don't hold the direction the company has taken as their responsibility. And if you have worked at VLK for 5 years, how would you cover that hole in your resume?

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

I agree with OnyxGirl, I'm sure they will come through this with some hard lessons learned and hopefully they will get past this and be in a better place in the near future. 

I do think the drivers should be investigated and if evidence shows neglect they should be charged with some form of animal cruelty.

We were talking in another thread about how just leaving one dog in the car for 5-10 minutes will often end up with a visit from the police. Seems like this incident warrants at least that level of concern. 

I also hope, after this, NatGeo drops the show.

IMO what appears to be happening here and what I was afraid would happen was a business that tried to expand without having in place a really solid process to support the expansion. I've seen it happen before but usually it's with production of an inanimate product. Products with relatively static properties and predictable outcomes and/or expiration. 

Dealing with living creatures, with a mind of their own, different personalities, length of time to completion varies and varying physical needs all drastically increase the complexity to the process of creating the end 'product' and maintain a fair level of quality and profitability.

This has nothing to do with the knowledge or skill level of the trainers, they are just one part of the process, but rather it is the entire framework of how does one produce high quality, healthy, well cared for, well trained dogs at higher quantity then any other kennel I've ever heard of.

(a question I asked in my thread about the show, has a privately owned kennel ever been so large?)


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## Gwenhwyfair

btw- David, reading your post it sounds like a lot of the trainers have military K9 experience?

If that's the case that's another clue as to how this could go wrong.

I worked for a DoD contractor (sat coms) and one thing the military has in place is solid process and execution. It's not perfect and some people like to harp on missteps but overall our military is TOP notch in preparation, planning and execution and I really enjoyed working with every branch. All the things that go on in the background, the things which seem mundane but yet all come together to support successful deployments/missions.

I can imagine someone from the military would have expectations that there is a good process and execution structure in place and would not know that business side was unprepared. Probably took some of the trainers by surprise. The private sector isn't as great as some people chalk it up to be.....this I know.....and why I started my own business.


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## wolfstraum

first I heard of VLK was over 10 years ago and they had over 200 dogs on site then....so you are saying it is even bigger now???? I knew a guy (now a K9 officer - was a professional welder then!) who went out there to take classes as well as some local K9 officers who had dogs from there....

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, when I started the thread about the show they had an announcement that they were in the process of almost doubling that number. That was the information that caused me the most concern at the time.

Now..if they actually followed through on that I cannot say in all fairness, but it certainly was posted on their website at that time, in a banner across the top of their home page and I noted it in my thread then.



wolfstraum said:


> first I heard of VLK was over 10 years ago and they had over 200 dogs on site then....so you are saying it is even bigger now???? I knew a guy (now a K9 officer - was a professional welder then!) who went out there to take classes as well as some local K9 officers who had dogs from there....
> 
> Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

Lee,

I looked up my thread, at the time they were announcing that they would be increasing to 500 dogs.

Again, don't know if they did it or not and cannot tell from their website currently.


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## Blitzkrieg1

They have 2 kennel locations now, not sure the total dogs. A dept close to me recieved 12 from them a few months ago. Apparently all of them were quality..which is surprising.
Don't believe half the nonsense you see on the show, its staged for dramatic purposes.
Kenny has been in business for a long time, he knows the war has been winding down for a while, I doubt someone with his business savvy would expand without a plan. 
Good on them for expanding, I wish them continued success. Nat Geo will drop the show when the ratings tank as with any other show.

I fail to see how this could have not occurred if they had less dogs. Either there was a mechanical failure or human failure or a combo of both. Stuff happens, you do your best to surround yourself with good people that doesnt always work out. If you had ever been in the military you would know despite how great things look on paper the reality is rife with human error. Whether his kennel had 100 or 1000 dog this still would have happened. You learn from it, fire the people responsible, change the sops and move on.

I have a strong dislike for naysayers and busybodies that always try find reasons NOT to do something, grow, expand, develop etc. Ofcourse what would internet forums be without them?? 
I really am starting to grasp why the majority of serious dog people hate forums and stay off them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ya know it's not about NOT growing it's about growing the RIGHT way. 

10 dogs died, 3 more had to be treated for heat, that's not a small oops, it's BIG.

I repeat that's a *BIG* fricken flippin screw up. We aren't making this up it happened!

Mistakes happen but this is a BIG mistake when BIG mistakes like this happens that usually indicates there is a problem! These sort of things don't usually happen out of the blue, just like when BP platform blew in the gulf a few years ago. Many different factors/decisions in the business process lead to the failure.

This has NOTHING to do with whether one knows how to train military working dogs and the owner maybe a great and knowledgeable trainer.

It does have to do with process, procedures, safety, culture and care! 

At the end of the day this is a PRIVATE sector business and there are commonalities in business that apply no matter what industry/service you are in.

Just because some people can see and comprehend some red flags does not mean they are 'busy bodies'

I've worked with the military and the guys I know would be *disgusted* at this sort of *mission failure*, 10 dead [email protected]!~!




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> They have 2 kennel locations now, not sure the total dogs. A dept close to me recieved 12 from them a few months ago. Apparently all of them were quality..which is surprising.
> Don't believe half the nonsense you see on the show, its staged for dramatic purposes.
> Kenny has been in business for a long time, he knows the war has been winding down for a while, I doubt someone with his business savvy would expand without a plan.
> Good on them for expanding, I wish them continued success. Nat Geo will drop the show when the ratings tank as with any other show.
> 
> I fail to see how this could have not occurred if they had less dogs. Either there was a mechanical failure or human failure or a combo of both. Stuff happens, you do your best to surround yourself with good people that doesnt always work out. If you had ever been in the military you would know despite how great things look on paper the reality is rife with human error. Whether his kennel had 100 or 1000 dog this still would have happened. You learn from it, fire the people responsible, change the sops and move on.
> 
> I have a strong dislike for naysayers and busybodies that always try find reasons NOT to do something, grow, expand, develop etc. Ofcourse what would internet forums be without them??
> I really am starting to grasp why the majority of serious dog people hate forums and stay off them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

..AND the fact of the matter is I was concerned that this would happen.

I'm a business analyst of sorts and you Rambo types get all wrapped up in the bits and pieces *you know* but don't know or understand the concepts the come together to work in larger scale operations, process, execution, planning all that boring 'bean counter' stuff but business like life is an interconnected system.

That's why I've been pretty proficient at seeing weaknesses in companies. Then people who are invested, emotionally or monetarily get all angry when my predictions pan out.

Toss a rock up in the air, someone will tell you it will fall, do you get angry at the person who told you it would hit the ground?

Too many people driven by the wrong motivators, loyalty, money even greed refuse often to see warning signs, that doesn't mean they are busy bodies, it means they can see things you refuse to see.

The greatest cause of human and animal suffering is our ability to ignore reality.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ya know it's not about NOT growing it's about growing the RIGHT way.
> 
> 10 dogs died, 3 more had to be treated for heat, that's not a small oops.
> 
> Mistakes happen but this is a BIG mistake when BIG mistakes like this happens that usually indicates there is a problem! These sort of things don't usually happen out of the blue, just like when BP platform blew in the gulf a few years ago. Many different factors/decisions in the business process lead to the failure.
> 
> This has NOTHING to do with whether one knows how to train military working dogs and the owner maybe a great and knowledgeable trainer.
> 
> It does have to do with process, procedures, safety, culture and care!
> 
> At the end of the day this is a PRIVATE sector business and there are commonalities in business that apply no matter what industry/service you are in.


Who says he hasnt grown the right way? You? Who are you, what multimillion dollar successful business do you operate? The guy started from nothing and grew his business into what it is today. That didnt happen overnight, or even when the TV show happened. 

He has been in operation for decades and has sold thousands of dogs. This is the first time this occurred. People like you are always ready to jump on those who are successful and point out all the reasons they shouldnt be. 
Once again stuff happens, and yes a small oversite like missing one rest break could have caused this. They were in a very hot place, had done the run 10 times probably with the same equipment. Heat related death can occur in under an hour in the right conditions. DO you know what happened or how it happened? 
If this had happened to them before you may have a point. It hasnt and I doubt it will again.
How do you know it was a culture issue? What do you know about their culture or SOPs? 

Im betting zilch.

K9s die in cruisers all the time. Should the cops stop using them? PEOPLE not dogs die in the military because of human error every month, should they be disbanded? Guess what, despite all the SOPs you put in place its going to keep happening. Humans and machines are imperfect, mistakes are inevitable.

You dont know if it was human laziness, oversite, error, or maybe they followed SOPs flawlessly and it happened anyways. My point is you DONT KNOW. So stop proselytizing over the internet about something you have little knowledge of.

Yes its sad dogs died, yes it should be investigated, I guarentee you it is, and I wouldnt be surprised if people get fired. 
If it happens again I will worry about it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ..AND the fact of the matter is I was concerned that this would happen.
> 
> I'm a business analyst of sorts and you Rambo types get all wrapped up in the bits and pieces *you know* but don't know or understand the concepts the come together to work in larger scale operations, process, execution, planning all that boring 'bean counter' stuff but business like life is an interconnected system.
> 
> That's why I've been pretty proficient at seeing weaknesses in companies. Then people who are invested, emotionally or monetarily get all angry when my predictions pan out.
> 
> Toss a rock up in the air, someone will tell you it will fall, do you get angry at the person who told you it would hit the ground?
> 
> Too many people driven by the wrong motivators, loyalty, money even greed refuse often to see warning signs, that doesn't mean they are busy bodies, it means they can see things you refuse to see.
> 
> The greatest cause of human and animal suffering is our ability to ignore reality.


Once again with all this god given forsight you have why dont you run a multi million dollar company the RIGHT way. Show us all how its done.

I dont recall you predicting 10 dogs would die in a freak accident on the previous thread maybe Im missing something? Most of the large successful businesses in NA have suffered human loss of life to some degree, sometimes it was avoidable other times not so much. You dont stop being sucessful because something bad happens. You learn from it, take necessary steps and move forward.

Bean counters are important to success in the military and business, they have their place and their input should be valued. Its when their input becomes gospel and they get more sway then they deserve that things such as actual EFFECTIVE EXECUTION start to go downhill. Just look at todays military and the issues it has for evidence of the truth in this statement. 

Sometimes business and military success require an increased element of risk. Sometimes you have to pay the piper sometimes it pans out. Thats what makes for true success. If you always hide behind what might be then things never WILL be.


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## Gwenhwyfair

What I know is 10 dogs died. There's NO excuse for that and that's a massive FAILURE.

People who have made much lesser mistakes have gotten far worse punishment because IT IS a serious mistake.

If this happened in a military setting, a REAL military setting you think it would just be blown off? 

I'm sure some people will be fired that at the very least!! I don't know if there will even be an investigation to answer the specific details of what happened. The news report indicated no investigations at this time. I'm sure not all the dogs died at the same time so the 'they may have missed on rest stop' doesn't hold water and it doesn't matter.

If this were my business I'd be flipping out, going over everything from top to bottom, examining how something could go so TERRIBLY wrong.

Maybe your friend, I'm assuming you have ties to this kennel by the way you are reacting, correct me if I'm wrong, is going to do that.

Still this will leave a black mark on his company and it won't be because of 'busy bodies' on the internet either, it will be because of huge failure in the business mission!!

So if this business owner is your friend I hope you will be counseling him to tear his org up, from top to bottom, evaluate his processes from top to bottom because I can assure you he's going to find problems where he didn't think there were any.

And just so you know I quit a private sector company, good paying job, because I was concerned about their processes putting our military men and women in harm. They didn't heed my warnings and I just couldn't stand by and watch it so I know god dang thing or two about this kind of issue...  



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Who says he hasnt grown the right way? You? Who are you, what multimillion dollar successful business do you operate? The guy started from nothing and grew his business into what it is today. That didnt happen overnight, or even when the TV show happened.
> 
> He has been in operation for decades and has sold thousands of dogs. This is the first time this occurred. People like you are always ready to jump on those who are successful and point out all the reasons they shouldnt be.
> Once again stuff happens, and yes a small oversite like missing one rest break could have caused this. They were in a very hot place, had done the run 10 times probably with the same equipment. Heat related death can occur in under an hour in the right conditions. DO you know what happened or how it happened?
> If this had happened to them before you may have a point. It hasnt and I doubt it will again.
> How do you know it was a culture issue? What do you know about their culture or SOPs?
> 
> Im betting zilch.
> 
> K9s die in cruisers all the time. Should the cops stop using them? PEOPLE not dogs die in the military because of human error every month, should they be disbanded? Guess what, despite all the SOPs you put in place its going to keep happening. Humans and machines are imperfect, mistakes are inevitable.
> 
> You dont know if it was human laziness, oversite, error, or maybe they followed SOPs flawlessly and it happened anyways. My point is you DONT KNOW. So stop proselytizing over the internet about something you have little knowledge of.
> 
> Yes its sad dogs died, yes it should be investigated, I guarentee you it is, and I wouldnt be surprised if people get fired.
> If it happens again I will worry about it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Heh, you stepped right into that.

It's not 'God Given' foresight, it's just a willingness to see things for what they really are. 

*shockingly* <note the sarcasm. people often aren't very objective. I happen to be one of those 'goobers' who says wait a minute something doesn't sound right here, and guess what, people like you get all po'd. Happened to me in the private sector. I'd say something the boss didn't want to hear and it didn't matter if my observations had some logical foundation, if it was he did NOT want to hear I was the 'bad guy'.

That doesn't meant I'm always right, what it means is when I do see something that's not right I speak up.

I'm just an average person who isn't willing to ignore warning signs. My one edge that is available to every other person walking this earth is to struggle against purely subjective views/reactions.

See my sig.

In blue - You keep making excuses, this wasn't an emergency mission, they were taking the dogs down to El Paso to sell them.

You just don't want to admit that this kennel screwed up big time and very well may have serious internal problems.

I don't know why, or what your connection or investment is but clearly something about this situation and kennel strikes a deep chord in you causing you to react defensively.







Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Once again with all this god given forsight you have why dont you run a multi million dollar company the RIGHT way. Show us all how its done.
> 
> I dont recall you predicting 10 dogs would die in a freak accident on the previous thread maybe Im missing something? Most of the large successful businesses in NA have suffered human loss of life to some degree, sometimes it was avoidable other times not so much. You dont stop being sucessful because something bad happens. You learn from it, take necessary steps and move forward.
> 
> Bean counters are important to success in the military and business, they have their place and their input should be valued. Its when their input becomes gospel and they get more sway then they deserve that things such as actual EFFECTIVE EXECUTION start to go downhill. Just look at todays military and the issues it has for evidence of the truth in this statement.
> 
> Sometimes business and military success require an increased element of risk. Sometimes you have to pay the piper sometimes it pans out. Thats what makes for true success. If you always hide behind what might be then things never WILL be.


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## Mrs.K

David Winners said:


> All the big overseas contracts that have been feeding the industry are going away. AMK9 with the ECPs on all the FOBs (hundreds of dogs, handlers, many trainers), *VLK lost TEDD to K2*, but that program goes away next year (300 dogs going to the Army, 15 trainers). All the contracting agencies are downsizing operations in the middle east. It's getting tight out there.
> 
> I'm back in the Army... not strictly because of the situation, but it was a big factor.
> 
> There are / were some great trainers at VLK, with decades of successful deployment experience and countless lives saved because of their efforts. I certainly don't hold the direction the company has taken as their responsibility. And if you have worked at VLK for 5 years, how would you cover that hole in your resume?
> 
> David Winners


That is true and believe me, the handlers are not happy about it because the trainers make them call the dogs OFF the source and reward them AWAY from the source which causes a lot of confusion in the dogs. I think it's the stupidest thing ever to try to force a new training method on dogs and handlers. It could cost lives! So I don't get why, in the MIDDLE of the deployment, they dropped VLK to pick up K2... :help:


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## AkariKuragi

See, this was a one time event. Yes, 10 dogs died and that is tragic. I'm not convinced the dogs were without AC for an extended period of time (such as longer than six hours) without being checked on because if that was the case all the dogs would be dead. I imagine the malfunction occurred on the last leg of the trip and thus they would have no reason to stop unless they suspected something was wrong, which they probably didn't suspect because the kennels likely had a separate AC unit. Say they had checked on the dogs six-four hours prior to arriving and everything was fine, and then the AC quits shortly after. Assuming it was a hot day and the sun was out, and that the kennels have bare ventilation to prevent the AC from being pointless, a few hours would be deadly. In all possibility this could have really just been a tragic accident with no intended negligence. 

I think it is unfair to look down on the kennel for this one time event. Even if it was neglect, there is only so much a company can do to hire good people. And even with the most careful screening you will still eventually get a bad seed. You can only do so many things yourself before you have to start trusting people, and sometimes that trust is betrayed. 

Stuff happens, it's not always someone's fault. Seven dogs lived, and I just can't believe that they would be alive if they'd been left alone for an unreasonable amount of time.


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## David Winners

This could be the error of 1 person failing to follow company protocol.

Kenny loves dogs. He still lives 50 yards from his first kennel. He's really tore up over this, I can tell you that for sure.

David Winners


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## David Winners

Mrs.K said:


> That is true and believe me, the handlers are not happy about it because the trainers make them call the dogs OFF the source and reward them AWAY from the source which causes a lot of confusion in the dogs. I think it's the stupidest thing ever to try to force a new training method on dogs and handlers. It could cost lives! So I don't get why, in the MIDDLE of the deployment, they dropped VLK to pick up K2... :help:


First I've heard of this training change. Why take a bunch of combat proven dogs and try to change the way they work?

Stupid

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

Different dogs will have different tolerances but I think it should be investigated by LE for possible animal cruelty to clear up some of the points (which are fair) - @AkariK.

I do think (and hope) that there is an investigation into this incident thus far I haven't heard of anything?

Still, this was not just one or even two dogs dying. This was a significant, LARGE failure and because of that the tolerance for excuses should be low.

I don't care who/what business was transporting the dogs it's a huge mistake, a big failure and should be taken very seriously.


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## David Winners

David Winners said:


> This could be the error of 1 person failing to follow company protocol.
> 
> Kenny loves dogs. He still lives 50 yards from his first kennel. He's really tore up over this, I can tell you that for sure.
> 
> David Winners


It's important for me to state here that I do not know what that protocol is, and that it could have been just a piece of equipment at fault. I have never been around that side of the business in any way.

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

I believe that. 

That's why I'm pointing to processes not individual people (except for those driving the dogs).



David Winners said:


> This could be the error of 1 person failing to follow company protocol.
> 
> Kenny loves dogs. He still lives 50 yards from his first kennel. *He's really tore up over this, I can tell you that for sure*.
> 
> David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

Here's the thing, I've just seen this too many times in various settings.

It's usually NOT intentional but different people making different decisions usually lead up to catastrophic failures. It's usually a problem at several levels. I've fought many battles over these sort of things, including FOR the military.

Is there a chance this was a totally isolated screw up type of incident, yes of course.

But folks, the reality is that's not how these sort of catastrophic failures usually occur. That's what gets under my skin, there shouldn't be second chances or excuses for something like this. This is sort of thing is usually a huge warning sign and I'm just not going to worry about if someone's feelings going to be hurt because I say apparently there's some real problems here. 

And anyone who says 10 dogs dying, 3 requiring veterinary care is NOT a catastrophic failure is flat out wrong.


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## Mrs.K

It is a catastrophic failure. 10 dogs is a huge catastrophic failure. 

This sort of failure will probably cost them a lot of contracts and they might even lose the Show. It's not going to be easy to recover from a failure like that because after this, they will be questioned in everything they do. Also, if Animal Right groups have not had them in focus already they might take a closer look at them now . This won't go away easily and might have a huge backlash.


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## Lilie

Gwenhwyfair said:


> But folks, the reality is that's not how these sort of catastrophic failures usually occur. That's what gets under my skin, there shouldn't be second chances or excuses for something like this. This is sort of thing is usually a huge warning sign and I'm just not going to worry about if someone's feelings going to be hurt because I say apparently there's some real problems here.


I'll make an assumption that the dogs were insured. They are considered assets in the business. If the dogs were valued at high end $6000 each and/or low end $3000 each - that would be a significant claim on the carrier. I would think that they would require an in depth investigation before releasing any funds. At least I would hope so.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks for posting that Mrs. K. 

It's tragic from many angles.

I do not wish this kennel any ill will, I'm *not* invested in them in any way up or down.

I am big believer in the free market and I hope they survive and maybe this is a big sign for them to take a step back, re-evaluate. Sometimes a good business owner will come through things like this and be better and stronger for it.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Good point.

No matter what though, I think an investigation into possible animal cruelty or neglect is in order for the drivers as well. 

Now it maybe found they didn't do anything wrong, that's possible but there should at least be a criminal investigation to find out how this happened.



Lilie said:


> I'll make an assumption that the dogs were insured. They are considered assets in the business. If the dogs were valued at high end $6000 each and/or low end $3000 each - that would be a significant claim on the carrier. I would think that they would require an in depth investigation before releasing any funds. At least I would hope so.


----------



## vomlittlehaus

I read the article. It did state it was a 22 hour trip. It did not state how long into the trip this was found. The a/c failed. I am guessing it was a tractor trailer type of set up where the driver is separate from the cargo. I have seen show dog handlers that have a different set up where they are in the same vehicle/truck as the dogs. Even police dogs have died from equipment failure. Where a fail safe was in place, and that failed as well. Those dogs probably died within an hour of the a/c failure, since they were in extreme heat area of the country. Perhaps a camera in the cab showing the cargo area would have helped as long as you could see some of the dogs close up. There are horse trailers equipped with them. I really don't see where negligence on the part of the driver/handler/trainer occurred by the information we have been given. It is a tragic loss, and I am sure all employees of the kennel are devastated. I think we sometimes rely too much on technology.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

According to the article the dogs were found to be dead at the point of delivery, Canine Center, Ft Bliss.

Either way an investigation by LE is in order IMO.


----------



## David Winners

If I remember correctly, AMK9 lost 22 dogs in a container sitting in an air cargo lot in 2011. They were on their way to Afghanistan. They were being shipped by a company that specializes in moving live animals. Tragic accidents happen. Was it a mistake, of course! Somebody is at fault. Maybe it's the guy that left a cold solder joint on the circuit board in the cooling unit.

It's a mistake when anyone gets injured. It's a mistake when hero dogs die on the battlefield from explosions, gunfire, and yes, heat as well. Even right there attached to the handler by 6 foot of leather, they are still at risk. They are at risk on the planes while deploying, at the transient kennels on the way, everything involves risk.

Believe me, I have a huge emotional investment in this; more than anyone else in this conversation. I haven't seen a list yet, but I know some dogs that call that kennel home. I'm really upset, and I would love to just blame somebody, but no one here knows what happened.

If no other investigation happens at all, Kenny will get to the bottom of this, along with a handful of guys back at the kennels that I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley if I didn't know them. I have seen Ken's reaction to a picture of a filthy kennel. I can't even imagine what **** whoever is at fault will go through.


David Winners


----------



## Okin

Hopefully if nothing else this leads people to come up with better systems. I don't do anything like this for a living but would a guage near the driver that reads the temps where the dogs are be that hard to do?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It should be investigated by an outside agency as well *any incident like this*.

I know a boarding kennel owner pretty well, decent size kennel.

I know if he lost 10 dogs in one day he'd probably be investigated up one side and down the other and out of business. Heck just one dog died of bloat a couple of years ago and all you know what broke out.

New laws are being passed getting tougher on individuals who leave even one dog in a parked car.

So...while I really respect your input and knowledge, no one should be above the law, animals suffered and died and it should be investigated by someone not involved in the kennel, you agree?

(btw battlefield deaths don't apply, totally different circumstances and scenarios not to mention laws....)






David Winners said:


> If I remember correctly, AMK9 lost 22 dogs in a container sitting in an air cargo lot in 2011. They were on their way to Afghanistan. They were being shipped by a company that specializes in moving live animals. Tragic accidents happen. Was it a mistake, of course! Somebody is at fault. Maybe it's the guy that left a cold solder joint on the circuit board in the cooling unit.
> 
> It's a mistake when anyone gets injured. It's a mistake when hero dogs die on the battlefield from explosions, gunfire, and yes, heat as well. Even right there attached to the handler by 6 foot of leather, they are still at risk. They are at risk on the planes while deploying, at the transient kennels on the way, everything involves risk.
> 
> Believe me, I have a huge emotional investment in this; more than anyone else in this conversation. I haven't seen a list yet, but I know some dogs that call that kennel home. I'm really upset, and I would love to just blame somebody, but no one here knows what happened.
> 
> If no other investigation happens at all, Kenny will get to the bottom of this, along with a handful of guys back at the kennels that I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley if I didn't know them. I have seen Ken's reaction to a picture of a filthy kennel. I can't even imagine what **** whoever is at fault will go through.
> 
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

A question, but aren't (shouldn't) the same laws regarding animal welfare apply to dogs not actively in combat situations?

In other words if a private carrier happens to allow some AKC show dogs to die on the way to a show they would be liable not only for monetary damages but also cruelty charges.

Again I'm talking about dogs *NOT* actually serving in the military at the time of their death/injury. *If *it is determined that the death/injury is due to negligence animal welfare laws should apply?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

David I found the AMK9 case. It was 14 dogs that did die in sealed container truck.

As you said it was a third party private company that was responsible for the dogs at the time of their death. AMK9 did sue (as they should have), I didn't see where animal neglect or cruelty charges were brought (why not?!)

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8466983

(btw if you read the case linked in the article the third party contractor APH acknowledged it was common practice to not move dogs from the transport to the indoor area...but AMK9 didn't know that.

and in edit they were investigated by the USDA. 

See, bad habits became bad process at APH....they acknowledged they should have taken the 'time' to move the dogs indoors....")


----------



## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It should be investigated by an outside agency as well *any incident like this*.
> 
> I know a boarding kennel owner pretty well, decent size kennel.
> 
> I know if he lost 10 dogs in one day he'd probably be investigated up one side and down the other and out of business. Heck just one dog died of bloat a couple of years ago and all you know what broke out.
> 
> New laws are being passed getting tougher on individuals who leave even one dog in a parked car.
> 
> So...while I really respect your input and knowledge, no one should be above the law, animals suffered and died and it should be investigated by someone not involved in the kennel, you agree?
> 
> (btw battlefield deaths don't apply, totally different circumstances and scenarios not to mention laws....)


Yes, I agree there should be an investigation, and someone should be held responsible. That needs to happen. I agree with a lot of what you say IF the party you are holding responsible is in fact at fault.

I'm certainly not trying to justify any wrongdoing that resulted in any death. Nor am I trying to alleviate responsibility from VLK, Kenny, the drivers, or anyone involved. 

I am trying to state that sometimes circumstances occur that result in tragedy. I have a problem finding fault from where I sit. If an investigation takes place and the driver is found guilty, I feel he should pay his dues. If VLK is at fault, so should they. I'm just in no position to make that kind of judgement.


10 dogs from VLK is a much lower percentage than one from your friend who boards dogs, unless it's a very large operation. It's still one incident. One mistake. If the previous figure is correct, VLK lost 2% of the dogs they have on hand. Add in the number sold this year and I bet that percentage drops pretty low. I hate that it happened, and I'm certainly not trying to justify anything. Ken has a great track record moving dogs (as far as I know). I can't see where a top down scrub of the company operations is necessary at this time. Proof of what happened may change my mind however.


I'm not asking this in an accusatory manner. It's simply to make a point. Why didn't your friend catch the dog in time, treat it, and get it to the vet?

I only brought military dogs into the conversation because there is inherent risk in the life that we choose for them. Handlers are held responsible for the death of their partner if they are found negligent, so similar laws apply in these circumstances. I'm truly sorry if it was unfair to mention battlefield casualties.

David Winners


----------



## Mrs.K

10 dogs... - 2% of the dogs they have on hand? They have 500 dogs on hand? 
That is insane...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I do think you are taking a very fair view of this situation. I appreciate your input because of your balanced way of approaching this, it gives your POV greater weight IMO.

My response in blue embedded below:





David Winners said:


> Yes, I agree there should be an investigation, and someone should be held responsible. That needs to happen. I agree with a lot of what you say IF the party you are holding responsible is in fact at fault.
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to justify any wrongdoing that resulted in any death. Nor am I trying to alleviate responsibility from VLK, Kenny, the drivers, or anyone involved.
> 
> I am trying to state that sometimes circumstances occur that result in tragedy. I have a problem finding fault from where I sit. If an investigation takes place and the driver is found guilty, I feel he should pay his dues. If VLK is at fault, so should they. I'm just in no position to make that kind of judgement.
> 
> I agree and I don't mind admitting (and have done so already in this thread) that it's possible it really was a terrible accident that could not have been prevented. However, we agree, that an outside party investigation really is in order to determine that.
> 
> Because I'm coming at this having dealt with companies where problems were due to negligence I'm going to express that possibility more then others may. Doesn't mean I'm 100% right all the time though. I do get frustrated (in general not specifically referring to VLK here) with companies that get away with negligence.
> 
> 10 dogs from VLK is a much lower percentage than one from your friend who boards dogs, unless it's a very large operation. It's still one incident. One mistake. If the previous figure is correct, VLK lost 2% of the dogs they have on hand. Add in the number sold this year and I bet that percentage drops pretty low. I hate that it happened, and I'm certainly not trying to justify anything. Ken has a great track record moving dogs (as far as I know). I can't see where a top down scrub of the company operations is necessary at this time. Proof of what happened may change my mind however.
> 
> I part ways with you on this point, strictly speaking from a legal 'did someone do wrong' point of view. One dog or ten IMO it should be investigated especially if the animal(s) suffered and it was not a death due to natural causes.
> 
> 
> I'm not asking this in an accusatory manner. It's simply to make a point. Why didn't your friend catch the dog in time, treat it, and get it to the vet?
> 
> No worries, I understand what your are getting at. I'm not really 'friends' per se. I just run in some of the same circles, know them and the dog's owner too. I don't know the specific time frames involved but the owner did not choose to pursue the case legally so ..again... no real investigation beyond the vet and we won't really know.
> 
> It was definitely confirmed as bloat, though, by the vet via necropsy so not a cut and dried 'direct' case of negligence. That makes it more difficult to pin down how much of it was the kennel's fault. Yet, if it happened that several dogs all died within a 24 hour time frame then I think that would point more to negligence on the kennels part... for the kennel would have been much different and investigations, probably some criminal in nature, would be conducted.
> 
> I only brought military dogs into the conversation because there is inherent risk in the life that we choose for them. Handlers are held responsible for the death of their partner if they are found negligent, so similar laws apply in these circumstances. I'm truly sorry if it was unfair to mention battlefield casualties.
> 
> It's not that it's unfair just that it doesn't pertain specifically to battlefield deaths of dogs - what happened to dogs being transported by a private company on public roads CONUS. <see told you I worked with military guys.
> 
> Overall-
> 
> I'll never know for sure since I won't be party to any investigation. I'm sort of like a retired detective who's seen similar situations and apply that knowledge as a template over what happened here. I could be wrong but by the same token I could be right and I don't believe making excuses (*not* saying you have David) is the right thing to do either. 10 dogs suffered and died.
> 
> I really do think that a shake down of the company is in order, I say this with all honesty, if it were my company I'd be going through everything and everyone with a fine tooth comb, including myself, really.
> 
> It can't hurt to shake things down and really I've just seen it so many times, VLK management may not really know what 'bugs are under the rugs'....
> 
> Look at the case with APH (the AMK9 case I linked earlier) bad habits became bad process at APH and 14 dogs died...it does happen. Had APH done some shake downs, process/procedure evals, they may have caught this before 14 dogs died. In *that* case, according to the court paperwork it sounds like some people got lazy and it was either unknown to management/owners or even just ignored. Not saying this is VLK but...it happens.
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Possibly they have 500 dogs. That is what they had on their website at the launch of the TV show.

Blitzkreig said they have two facilities.



Mrs.K said:


> 10 dogs... - 2% of the dogs they have on hand? They have 500 dogs on hand?
> That is insane...


----------



## Mrs.K

They just opened a facility in the Netherlands.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Was there any proof that they even skipped a stop? They are traveling in ridiculously hot weather. If the air conditioner unit failed, those dogs could die _very_ quickly. Unless they were making stops every half an hour, it seems pretty easy to not notice in time that the air conditioner unit broke.

But I'm not really sure why there wasn't a remote thermometer so they could keep track of the temperature in there. They are less than $20. Stick the outdoor thermometer where the dogs are and the monitor where the driver is and you are good to go. For just $20, that would have saved the lives of 10 dogs.

Except maybe a car accident, I really can't think of anything more likely and more deadly to go wrong than the air conditioner unit failing. Personally it would have been my biggest fear, and considering how easy of a fix it would have been to just put in a remote thermometer, I'm a little shocked that there weren't more safety measures.


----------



## David Winners

Mrs.K said:


> 10 dogs... - 2% of the dogs they have on hand? They have 500 dogs on hand?
> That is insane...


I don't know how many dogs are there. It was stated earlier in the thread by someone else.

David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

At the time of the TV show launch they advertised on their homepage on the web they were expanding their facility to 500 dogs.

No confirmation if that's what they actually have on hand though.....



David Winners said:


> I don't know how many dogs are there. It was stated earlier in the thread by someone else.
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I have no affiliation with the kennel nor do I know the owner or anyone who works there. Im not defending anything Im just tired of reading the nonsense written on here based on nothing but innuendo and wishful thinking. You know as much as I do about the incident, which is to say nothing. No one is making excuses, all I said is you dont know what happened any more then I or anyone else on here does. It may be someones fault or guess what it may not be. Not everything is always someones fault..I know its a shocker. 
A one time accident occurs and you can already see that there is underlying issues in the culture and the way the business is run? I say you and reality are not in good communication. 

Im going to apologise in advance for the unwelcome dose of reality.

-AC nor LE will investigate, they are only interested in cases were there is intent or willful neglect not freak accidents. 

-The kennel will only suffer if it stops being able to provide quality dogs on time and in the numbers that are required.

- Someone may or may not lose their job depending on what the ultimate cause of the malfunction is and equipment may be replaced or augmented.

-Its sad and tragic but the world will keep on revolving, and Kenny will keep selling dogs.

Your argument holds no weight because your a nobody on the internet making sweeping accusations and pronouncements on an incident and business about which you know nothing.

Now before you go off half cocked again, note that I have not said no one is at fault nor have I said that nothing should change. I dont have enough information and neither do you. Nor is 10 dogs being dead all you need to know despite the emotional cords that line pulls.

I will give now you the internet experts victory..THE LAST WORD .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well I appreciate your honesty in sharing that you don't have any insider information yourself - but then that makes you one of us 'internet experts'.

LOL!!!! 


Got proof of any of the below points or is it just your opinion is more valid then everyone else's (see pot/kettle)

BTW in blue the USDA did investigate APH in the death of 14 dogs they were transporting so there IS precedent for investigation as it applies to animal welfare law. 

Debating ain't your gig, I can tell, you have to resort to insults to make an, umm point? LOL!!!! 

See ya fellow internet nobody!!  



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have no affiliation with the kennel nor do I know the owner or anyone who works there. Im not defensive Im just tired of reading the nonsense written on here based on nothing but innuendo and wishful thinking. You know as much as I do about the incident, which is to say nothing. No one is making excuses, all I said is you dont know what happened any more then I or anyone else on here does. It may be someones fault or guess what it may not be. Not everything is always someones fault..I know its a shocker.
> A one time accident occurs and you can already see that there is underlying issues in the culture and the way the business is run? I say you and reality are not in good communication.
> 
> Im going to apologise in advance for the unwelcome dose of reality.
> 
> -AC nor LE will investigate, they are only interested in cases were there is intent or willful neglect not freak accidents.
> 
> -The kennel will only suffer if it stops being able to provide quality dogs on time and in the numbers that are required.
> 
> - Someone may or may not lose their job depending on what the ultimate cause of the malfunction is and equipment may be replaced or augmented.
> 
> -Its sad and tragic but the world will keep on revolving, and Kenny will keep selling dogs.
> 
> Your argument holds no weight because your a nobody on the internet making sweeping accusations and pronouncements on an incident and business about which you know nothing.
> 
> Now before you go off half cocked again, note that I have not said no one is at fault nor have I said that nothing should change. I dont have enough information and neither do you. Nor is 10 dogs being dead all you need to know despite the emotional cords that line pulls.
> 
> I will give now you the internet experts victory..THE LAST WORD .


 LOL!!!!


----------



## jafo220

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

Just an outside perspective here. I try to approach things like this with common sense. So a wade into this conversation with care.

My first question is what difference does it make if this kennel has 2 dogs or 2000? How does that make this mishap the kennelers fault? 

Was it a third party carrier or was it inhouse delivery? A few simple things could have made the unit fail. A simple leak is undetectable until the unit is down. I do have to agree that a simple temp alarm could have saved the lives of the dogs. We have those alarms where I work. If the temp drops below a setpoint, it alarms with a light. Very simple.

As far as stopping, wouldn't they be required to stop? I'm forced to stop. Mainly for releaving of the dogs. I sure would not want to deliver 17 urine and stool soaked dogs to a customer. I think that would not have gone over well with te price of some of these dogs. They would almost be forced to stop just for this reason unless they restricted food and water before being crated. 

All in all, I can't see the kennel owner being responsible in the end. Just from the poiny of view that he has vested time and money in thier training. I've wathced thier show a few times and he appears to have some compassion for what he does and the dogs he kennels. I just think this may be one of those things that happens beit sad, but I'm like some others, you kind of have to hold judgement until all the facts are known.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In house transportation according to David and the article.


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## jafo220

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In house transportation according to David and the article.


Being in house, I'm 100% confident this owner will be wanting answers. 

Again, looking at it from a common sense point of view, would you take a long road trip without proper preperations? Not saying the unit had not been checked out and ok'd by a certified technician. To me it would be the only place I think you could place blame on the kennel owner. If proper maintanance was not done to the unit then there is negligence right there. 

It's an unfortunate occurance for sure.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Similar situation with APH (third party) case as I read the court paperwork.

AC unit failure was blamed but since they were third party they were investigated by the USDA and sued.

One thing I agree with ole blitzkrieg on (even if he thinks he's got more answers then everyone else while not knowing more LOL!).....we'll only know for sure if there is an investigation as in the case of the APH incident.





jafo220 said:


> Being in house, I'm 100% confident this owner will be wanting answers.
> 
> Again, looking at it from a common sense point of view, would you take a long road trip without proper preperations? Not saying the unit had not been checked out and ok'd by a certified technician. To me it would be the only place I think you could place blame on the kennel owner. If proper maintanance was not done to the unit then there is negligence right there.
> 
> It's an unfortunate occurance for sure.


----------



## jafo220

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Similar situation with APH (third party) case as I read the court paperwork.
> 
> AC unit failure was blamed but since they were third party they were investigated by the USDA and sued.
> 
> One thing I agree with ole blitzkrieg on (even if he thinks he's got more answers then everyone else while not knowing more LOL!).....we'll only know for sure if there is an investigation as in the case of the APH incident.


I can understand where you come from on certain things in your former line of work.

I spent about 5 years with my current company as a part of thier safety program. It was behavior based safety where they brought in outside sources to teach us about behavioural base safety. Unfortunately, they couldn't buy into what they were wanting us to buy into. They operated in a reactive behavioral setting, and this program was based on proactive behavioral safety. We would identify safety issues before they cost them lost time injuries or worse. But in the end, they scrapped the program. It was alot like you said, you identify things, they look at you like how much will it cost? Then it never gets fixed. The next day they are back looking at you like what are we paying you for? It's just crazy.

For any occurance, it can always be traced to a source. At some point, that source had human interaction of some kind at some point. It's just a matter of how DEEP you want to dig and IF you want to find anything. It's an unfortunate sad state of affairs in this country that this doesn't get the attention it deserves really. People are more interested in what Lindsay Lohan is doing and how many times she's been in rehab.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. I've been involved in similar shenanigans with process improvement. Thank you for your insight. I think you captured the essence of the problem with many companies, and the state of problem solving in our country too. I agree.




jafo220 said:


> I can understand where you come from on certain things in your former line of work.
> 
> I spent about 5 years with my current company as a part of thier safety program. It was behavior based safety where they brought in outside sources to teach us about behavioural base safety. Unfortunately, they couldn't buy into what they were wanting us to buy into. They operated in a reactive behavioral setting, and this program was based on proactive behavioral safety. We would identify safety issues before they cost them lost time injuries or worse. But in the end, they scrapped the program. It was alot like you said, you identify things, they look at you like how much will it cost? Then it never gets fixed. The next day they are back looking at you like what are we paying you for? It's just crazy.
> 
> For any occurance, it can always be traced to a source. At some point, that source had human interaction of some kind at some point. It's just a matter of how DEEP you want to dig and IF you want to find anything. It's an unfortunate sad state of affairs in this country that this doesn't get the attention it deserves really. People are more interested in what Lindsay Lohan is doing and how many times she's been in rehab.


----------



## onyx'girl

Update from Kenny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6SrU9nfMc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## Betty

Mrs.K said:


> 10 dogs... - 2% of the dogs they have on hand? They have 500 dogs on hand?
> That is insane...


Multiple Locations I believe.

And David (HI DAVID--waving frantically) will correct me if I'm wrong but when you are attempting to fill a government contract, a lot of dogs don't make it through the physical and other basic tests.

With a lot of PD's you have to be able to replace a dog quick, that they wash out during a certain time period. Not sure if that is the same with government contracts or not.

But I do know a few people that have worked there or been there and from all indications it appears he is adequately staffed and the dogs prob get more one on one attention then some sport dogs that basically sit in a kennel all week waiting for training day.


----------



## gsdsar

onyx'girl said:


> Update from Kenny:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6SrU9nfMc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Glad he finally spoke up. Horrible accident due to a horrible judgement call. Those responsible have been held accountable. That's all I wanted. For responsibility to be taken. 

Thanks for posting this. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Betty

I live and train in Florida. I know how fast heat can kill our dogs and how fast things can go wrong.

Personally? I will give Kenny a chance to investigate and make public what he wants too before I jump on any bandwagon.

Mistakes happen. Sometimes heartbreaking tragic mistakes. I'm not going to second guess anyone at this time but wait until more information is available.

My heart goes out to those poor dogs.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Dogs died overnight at a hotel?

Case closed?

I do agree that we don't know all the details but the statement in the video doesn't provide clarification. He sounded unsure as to what happened himself.


----------



## onyx'girl

I think they were left in the transport vehicle while the trainers were in the hotel. IF so, that was clearly negligence on the transporter/trainers part. PETA and HSUS will probably involve themselves.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

If they were negligent to that extent IMO Ken should press charges. There is no excuse for this. Firing is not enough IMO.




onyx'girl said:


> I think they were left in the transport vehicle while the trainers were in the hotel. That was clearly negligence on the transporter/trainers part.


----------



## David Winners

Betty said:


> Multiple Locations I believe.
> 
> And David (HI DAVID--waving frantically) will correct me if I'm wrong but when you are attempting to fill a government contract, a lot of dogs don't make it through the physical and other basic tests.
> 
> With a lot of PD's you have to be able to replace a dog quick, that they wash out during a certain time period. Not sure if that is the same with government contracts or not.
> 
> But I do know a few people that have worked there or been there and from all indications it appears he is adequately staffed and the dogs prob get more one on one attention then some sport dogs that basically sit in a kennel all week waiting for training day.


Hi Betty! Hugs!

Great point Betty. All VLK dogs are guaranteed. They have to have a rotation of green dogs, dogs in training, finished dogs, and returns at all times. If a dog washed out of TEDD in week 5, they have to replace that dog immediately and retrain or wash the dropped dog. My class kept several spares in rotation at all times, just in case.

The class schedule is pretty packed at times. When I was there, there may be a TEDD class, an SF class, and an LE class simultaneously. 


David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

BTW..as much as I think there should be an outside investigation...PETA involement would NOT help provide clarification or a realistic view.


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## onyx'girl

I agree, both groups are radical and it would not bode well to have them involved.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Question...I have travelled with Dogs to shows but it was only three and they stayed in the hotel room with us. When travelling with that many working dogs what is sop for overnight stops?


----------



## David Winners

I'm not willing to share any inside information. That is absolutely not my place.

I can say, however, that Ken firing that trainer would be like me firing my brother. 

I can also say that it took me about 4 times to make it through that video.

So sad.

David Winners


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Absolutely not enough!!! He is investigating a bad judgement call!!! He fired long time trainers and personal friends, thats it?!! Someone call HSUS, AC, FBI, NCAS, NSA and PETA asap! JUSTICE MUST BE DONE!


----------



## Betty

David Winners said:


> I'm not willing to share any inside information. That is absolutely not my place.
> 
> I can say, however, that Ken firing that trainer would be like me firing my brother.
> 
> I can also say that it took me about 4 times to make it through that video.
> 
> So sad.
> 
> David Winners



I agree David. What a heart breaker.

It is so tragic. And there is a possibility that it may of been preventable with different procedures in place. But, we don't know. 

We don't know what happened.

I'm surprised that people are saying firing is not enough when they don't know what happened.

And the owner may not be able to disclose information at this time because of possible legal ramifications or on advice of legal counsel because so many people are speculating.


----------



## Mrs.K

One of the comments on his youtube video....."we are just human and it happens."

NO! THIS DOES NOT JUST HAPPEN! 

I am appalled. Seriously, I wish he would have not posted this video because he did not sound or look like he was or is distrought about it at all. Just as if it was business as usual. 



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## Betty

Mrs.K said:


> One of the comments on his youtube video....."we are just human and it happens."
> 
> NO! THIS DOES NOT JUST HAPPEN!
> 
> I am appalled. Seriously, I wish he would have not posted this video because he did not sound or look like he was or is distrought about it at all. Just as if it was business as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I didn't pick up on the same attitude as you did Mrs. K. 

But we don't know what happened? So how can we say it does not just happen? 

Some dogs did survive. And looked healthy. So I don't think it is a case of the dogs sitting in an uncooled trailer for several hours, I can't imagine any of them would of survived.

Trust me if it turns out that someone was out getting drunk and missed an equipment check or something I will be the first one in line and I will bring the rope. I will probably knot the rope.

But I'd rather wait until we find out what did happen.


----------



## Mrs.K

Because it should have never happened in the first place. Something like that does NOT just happen and it should be investigated and somebody needs to be held accountable. 

If this was a private person or a cop the tone would be much different. 

Also... all of a sudden the story changes? First it was a defwct, now it was a judgement call? 

Personally, I think this stinks and needs to be thouroughly investigated. Simply firing does not cut it! Not when 10 dogs died! 



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## sparra

Oh for heavens sake....talk about tall poppy syndrome.
A tragic accident....not a time to poke the finger and say "I told you so"
For the life of me I cannot make a connection between this mans business dealings and what happened to the dogs.....it happens to CHILDREN.....what makes you think it can't happen to dogs!!


----------



## Betty

Mrs.K said:


> Because it should have never happened in the first place. Something like that does NOT just happen and it should be investigated and somebody needs to be held accountable.
> 
> If this was a private person or a cop the tone would be much different.
> 
> Also... all of a sudden the story changes? First it was a defwct, now it was a judgement call?
> 
> Personally, I think this stinks and needs to be thouroughly investigated. Simply firing does not cut it! Not when 10 dogs died!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How do we know that it's not being investigated?


----------



## Mrs.K

sparra said:


> Oh for heavens sake....talk about tall poppy syndrome.
> A tragic accident....not a time to poke the finger and say "I told you so"
> For the life of me I cannot make a connection between this mans business dealings and what happened to the dogs.....it happens to CHILDREN.....what makes you think it can't happen to dogs!!


These are professionals! They have made 10 trips to Texas before that. You would think they understand the Texas heat! If you want to be a professional, act like one and dont let dogs sit outside in a trailer and bake in the heat! 10 dogs dying is not just an accident, especially if it was a human error and NOT an equipment dailure. 

Personally, I am disgusted by it and I honestly do not know what to think of the sharade. I am very surprised that this is how someone looks who lost 10 dogs! 

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## sparra

Mrs.K said:


> These are Parents They have made 10 trips to Texas before that. You would think they understand the Texas heat! If you want to be a parent, act like one and dont let kids sit outside in a car and bake in the heat!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It happens.


----------



## Mrs.K

sparra said:


> It happens.


You really dont get it. It does not just happen! It is Negligence. And I do not care if it is a parent or Professional. Negligence is Negligence and cannot be excused with "Oh it happens...my bad".

Seriously? Is that how much a life is worth to you that you are willing to excuse it with "It happens"? 

I am disgusted on the highest level! 

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## sparra

w True.....and parents are charged at least over here on very serious charges....but the fact that they live with their mistake for the rest of their lives is probably punishment enough. I would think that the trainers in this case wouldn't be feeling to great about this either.
As for the guy on the video.....well plenty of people have sat in jail cause they didn't appear sad enough over the loss of a loved one so have been charged with murder.....who are we to.judge how sorry he should look


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## Mrs.K

It is not so much that he does not look sorry. It does not sound honest. It sounds demanding. First, 10 dogs dying due to bad judgement is not an accident. Secondly, there is no way to understand how anyone can leave them sitting in a trailer in that texas heat. ESPECIALLY when you have been deployed to Iraq and you KNOW heat and have been working with dogs for over ten years. 
I cannot call that an accident. Negligence is no accident! 

If he was honest he would call it for what it is and not excuse it as an accident. 

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## David Winners

Mrs.K said:


> Because it should have never happened in the first place. Something like that does NOT just happen and it should be investigated and somebody needs to be held accountable.
> 
> If this was a private person or a cop the tone would be much different.
> 
> Also... all of a sudden the story changes? First it was a defwct, now it was a judgement call?
> 
> Personally, I think this stinks and needs to be thouroughly investigated. Simply firing does not cut it! Not when 10 dogs died!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Have you ever had a flat tire?

If you were driving the speed limit down the highway and blew the front tire on your vehicle, causing an accident, is that your fault? Was it an accident?

What if your minivan swerved into a bus load of people and caused it to crash. Still an accident?

What if it crashed over the trail on a bridge and went over the side, causing 64 people to drown. Is it your fault? Still an accident?

This is a private person. He was a cop. I have seen all the people in that video, and the trainers in question, place themselves in grave danger when a tornado came through the area. We were all outside gathering dogs that were tied out, in student vehicles, doors were blowing off barns. It was raining sideways and impossible to see. They all stayed out in that storm, some getting seriously injured, to save those dogs. 

You don't know what is going on behind the scenes. If there is an investigation, the facts wouldn't be released until it is complete. How do you know that trainer isn't paying for the dogs? How do you know what he has agreed to on his own? Who do you want the restitution to go to? The families of the dogs? I take it you wish for criminal punitive action against anyone found negligent. Is that the price you demand? 

Would you expect to go to jail for your flat tire? 64 life sentences?

You do not know what happened.

David Winners


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## Mrs.K

David Winners said:


> Have you ever had a flat tire?
> 
> If you were driving the speed limit down the highway and blew the front tire on your vehicle, causing an accident, is that your fault? Was it an accident?
> 
> What if your minivan swerved into a bus load of people and caused it to crash. Still an accident?
> 
> What if it crashed over the trail on a bridge and went over the side, causing 64 people to drown. Is it your fault? Still an accident?
> 
> This is a private person. He was a cop. I have seen all the people in that video, and the trainers in question, place themselves in grave danger when a tornado came through the area. We were all outside gathering dogs that were tied out, in student vehicles, doors were blowing off barns. It was raining sideways and impossible to see. They all stayed out in that storm, some getting seriously injured, to save those dogs.
> 
> You don't know what is going on behind the scenes. If there is an investigation, the facts wouldn't be released until it is complete. How do you know that trainer isn't paying for the dogs? How do you know what he has agreed to on his own? Who do you want the restitution to go to? The families of the dogs? I take it you wish for criminal punitive action against anyone found negligent. Is that the price you demand?
> 
> Would you expect to go to jail for your flat tire? 64 life sentences?
> 
> You do not know what happened.
> 
> David Winners


Oh come on, they were at a motel and a bad judgment call was made. Dogs do not just drop dead and one does not need much fantasy to guess what happened and I do not think you can compare that to a flat tire.

And yes, if I was speeding and caused the swearving van to crash into a bus, it would be my fault and I would take responsibility for it! 

And yes, someone needs to be held legally accountable! If I was to leave one of my dogs in a car and the dog died, you bet I would be held legally accountable. 

Stupidity does not protect you from legal punishment.

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## GSxOwner

Glad he posted this...I think it says a lot and is genuine but that's just me. The trainers are literally hanging their heads and I bet not all of them were directly involved in what happened. Glad they brought out the seven survivors too...they did not avoid this or try to cover it up but faced it head on and admitted two of their trainers lost their jobs. Not a fun day to be Kenny.


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## AkariKuragi

Often times something labeled as neglect is not done on purpose and is accidental. You leave a kid or dog out in the car during a hot sunny day and they die. You did not intend to cause cruelty to that child or animal, it was an accident. It could be neglect and you could go to jail for it but it is still an accident.

I can't imagine the guilt the two trainers responsible are feeling. By all accounts.the staff at VLK are passionate about dogs and care about their animals. They stopped at a motel and the dogs died in the morning. They probably thought they would get up early enough that the dogs would not be harmed. Obviously they were wrong, although they did wake up early enough to save seven of the dogs. 

Nothing about this screams callous, uncaring neglect to me. It sounds like two people who made an honest mistake. Perhaps they'd looked at the forecast or had done this in the past and nothing bad had happened. Maybe they were tired from the long drive and slept through the alarm. /We don't know what happened./ I'm sure an investigation will be done but it is not the authorities duty to share every bit of their investigation with us. Give it time and wait for actual news to come out and be prepared for changes in stories as more information is released. News nowadays is more about getting there first rather than providing accurate information, so the change in cause is not surprising to me nor do I think it is the involved party trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

I also don't think it's fair to say the owner of the kennel wasn't sincere in his message because he "didn't look right." I lose a dog and I'm balling, my dad is there and he keeps a straight face, no emotion. These are army guys, they deal with emotion differently than a lot of people. And they're guys, macho guys, who might not want to sob in front of the whole world. 

An investigation should be done. Judgement should not be passed until it is completed and evidence is presented in a court of law. After all people are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, right? Doesn't feel right jumping to conclusions and demanding blood over second or third hand information that may or may not be true and accurate.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't know what tall poppy syndrome is but I am aware of confirmation bias, conflict of interest, self protective behavior and other documented problems that cause people to not believe one way or the other. We ignore warning signs all the time when they conflict with something we believe, think we know or understand. These are problems that also cause business operations to ignore or not see internal problems that lead to catastrophic failure.

Whether it's a day care or a large trading firm on wallstreet, often (not always...but very often) there are missteps, breakdowns, procedures that are being ignored preceeding a catastrophic failure. That's not an indictment on everyone in the business either, it's just a reality.

Pointing out possible faults/problems is does not always = personal condemnation either.

Seems like we are going to have two camps, the lets sweep it under the rug accidents happen camp and the something isn't right here and this should be investigated camp. Count me in the second camp, which will often be portrayed as the 'mean' people, when in fact all we want is the truth.

Those dogs probably suffered quite a bit before they died.

I suggest people review the court case about the incident David brought up earlier where APH had developed bad habits that became bad process and lead to the death of 14 dogs in a container truck as an example of *how* this can happen. I linked to an article which has a link to courtroom papers. 

I also respectfully submit, *none* of us here really know all the details therefore it is all conjecture, including your thoughts. 



sparra said:


> Oh for heavens sake....talk about tall poppy syndrome.
> A tragic accident....not a time to poke the finger and say "I told you so"
> For the life of me I cannot make a connection between this mans business dealings and what happened to the dogs.....it happens to CHILDREN.....what makes you think it can't happen to dogs!!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Mrs. K I'm with you on this.

The video didn't clear anything up and if anything it adds more questions.

There should be an investigation by an outside party, from what I gather seems like the USDA has jurisdiction over dogs being transported across state lines. If it is found to be negligence then the person(s) responsible should be held legally accountable. 

There is precedence for this and it's not about people picking on VLK, it's about *equal* treatment under the law.




Mrs.K said:


> Oh come on, they were at a motel and a bad judgment call was made. Dogs do not just drop dead and one does not need much fantasy to guess what happened and I do not think you can compare that to a flat tire.
> 
> And yes, if I was speeding and caused the swearving van to crash into a bus, it would be my fault and I would take responsibility for it!
> 
> And yes, someone needs to be held legally accountable! If I was to leave one of my dogs in a car and the dog died, *you bet I would be held legally accountable. *
> 
> Stupidity does not protect you from legal punishment.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

This is a strawman.

Accidents are investigated. If the investigation finds neglect, wrong doing on the part of one person they are charged according to the laws in place.

If it was unavoidable, not the fault of a driver, no charges are made.

As Mrs. K and others have said people have been investigated by the police for having just one dog, alive, in their car for 10 minutes.

Please explain why this incident shouldn't be investigated and prosecuted in the same manner?

Earlier in this thread you expressed concerns about VLK and that you were glad you left when you did.

I know this is very hard for you and that you have connections with the people there, but if my very best friend had 10 dogs die under her care in less then one day.....I would say an investigation is in order.

*If* the evidence showed she was negligent then I would expect she face charges for it.

I wouldn't like it but we are all (or should be at least) subject to the same treatment under the laws as they stand.





David Winners said:


> Have you ever had a flat tire?
> 
> If you were driving the speed limit down the highway and blew the front tire on your vehicle, causing an accident, is that your fault? Was it an accident?
> 
> What if your minivan swerved into a bus load of people and caused it to crash. Still an accident?
> 
> What if it crashed over the trail on a bridge and went over the side, causing 64 people to drown. Is it your fault? Still an accident?
> 
> This is a private person. He was a cop. I have seen all the people in that video, and the trainers in question, place themselves in grave danger when a tornado came through the area. We were all outside gathering dogs that were tied out, in student vehicles, doors were blowing off barns. It was raining sideways and impossible to see. They all stayed out in that storm, some getting seriously injured, to save those dogs.
> 
> You don't know what is going on behind the scenes. If there is an investigation, the facts wouldn't be released until it is complete. How do you know that trainer isn't paying for the dogs? How do you know what he has agreed to on his own? Who do you want the restitution to go to? The families of the dogs? I take it you wish for criminal punitive action against anyone found negligent. Is that the price you demand?
> 
> Would you expect to go to jail for your flat tire? 64 life sentences?
> 
> You do not know what happened.
> 
> David Winners


----------



## MiraC

Not sure what kind of trailer or truck was in use,but with the money they probably make they must have had a good rig,who goes twenty two hours with out stopping at rest areas to use the facilities or stretch ect! Why were the dogs not checked on?This can happen with transport of horses too if you hire out to have them transported! It is inexcusable!


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## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This is a strawman.
> 
> Accidents are investigated. If the investigation finds neglect, wrong doing on the part of one person they are charged according to the laws in place.
> 
> If it was unavoidable, not the fault of a driver, no charges are made.
> 
> As Mrs. K and others have said people have been investigated by the police for having just one dog, alive, in their car for 10 minutes.
> 
> Please explain why this incident shouldn't be investigated and prosecuted in the same manner?
> 
> Earlier in this thread you expressed concerns about VLK and that you were glad you left when you did.
> 
> I know this is very hard for you and that you have connections with the people there, but if my very best friend had 10 dogs die under her care in less then one day.....I would say an investigation is in order.
> 
> *If* the evidence showed she was negligent then I would expect she face charges for it.
> 
> I wouldn't like it but we are all (or should be at least) subject to the same treatment under the laws as they stand.


I have stated that there should be an investigation. I believe someone should be held responsible if found negligent. 

My feelings towards VLK have nothing to do with how they treat dogs, but rather how one person in the organization treated me. I was promised some things that were not delivered. 

I know a kennel hand that was fired because he used a broom to push a dog into the back of it's kennel so he could retrieve a food bowl. He didn't strike the dog. They take abuse very seriously. 

I simply don't appreciate a witch hunt without facts, which is what is happening here. No one should condemn anyone without proof. It's one of the simple liberties our country is founded on. I know what the mob is capable of, and the mob is not justice.

I have asked many questions for clarification, that haven't been answered, in hopes of getting people to understand that you can't judge anyone without the facts. I don't expect anyone to agree with me about anything, but blind persecution of anyone is wrong. People are emotional about this, and I understand that, but no one should blame anyone without knowing the whole story.

My defense of VLK would be the same if I wasn't connected to them. I'm not defending the actions that led to 10 dogs losing their lives. I'm defending their character in the face of baseless accusations grounded in emotion. If somebody goes to jail because of this, I'm all for it! They will do so after their day in court, where they can defend their actions and be prosecuted and judged in fairness.

David Winners


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## David Winners

If you go back and read the rants, you will see words like guess, imagination. That's not fair. I can guess how people would feel if it were their civil liberties that were being encroached upon.


David Winners


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## Nigel

His Von Liche trailer large enough to transport that many dogs has two AC units, if only one unit fails, the dogs supplied by that unit would suffer while the dogs at the other end may be ok. That is of course if he used his own line of trailers to transport these dogs. It could also make this incident more damaging to VLK.
http://media.wix.com/ugd/96aca23ccc192f3d3d5477b66633e437.ugd?dn=Ultimate K-9 Transporter Specs.pdf


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue below.



David Winners said:


> I have stated that there should be an investigation. I believe someone should be held responsible if found negligent.
> 
> O.K. thank you for clarifying, you were making arguments that were leading away from what you had said earlier about there should be an investigation.
> 
> My feelings towards VLK have nothing to do with how they treat dogs, but rather how one person in the organization treated me. I was promised some things that were not delivered.
> 
> I know a kennel hand that was fired because he used a broom to push a dog into the back of it's kennel so he could retrieve a food bowl. He didn't strike the dog. They take abuse very seriously.
> 
> As I said earlier I do think you are trying to be fair, but the reality is, as you said earlier, you do have ties to this kennel.
> 
> I simply don't appreciate a witch hunt without facts, which is what is happening here. No one should condemn anyone without proof. It's one of the simple liberties our country is founded on. *I know what the mob is capable of, and the mob is not justice*.
> 
> That's an exaggeration. BUT you know darn well you don't get as successful as this kennel without drawing some critics (often competitors) in a long the way. I'm NOT involved in this business in anyway so I'm not one of them....but you know darn well some people are going to go after VLK.
> 
> The rest of us just want to see a fair and honest investigation and David, that does NOT equal a witch hunt. I posited some possible reasons this may have happen and I openly admit I may be wrong but the same holds true for those who (NOT you) want to minimize or say 'accidents happen' and let it go.
> 
> I have asked many questions for clarification, that haven't been answered, in hopes of getting people to understand that you can't judge anyone without the facts. I don't expect anyone to agree with me about anything, but blind persecution of anyone is wrong. People are emotional about this, and I understand that, but no one should blame anyone without knowing the whole story.
> 
> I have tried to respond to all of your questions and treat you with respect so I hope I am not in that group of people.
> 
> Some just want to know that this incident will be treated with the seriousness it deserves. That no one be left to be above the law.
> 
> In fariness and with all due respect you are feeling emotional about this too, as you said you had a hard time watching the video. So we are all feeling something, for the guys at the kennel and for the dogs that suffered and died.
> 
> My defense of VLK would be the same if I wasn't connected to them. I'm not defending the actions that led to 10 dogs losing their lives. I'm defending their character in the face of baseless accusations grounded in emotion. If somebody goes to jail because of this, I'm all for it! They will do so after their day in court, where they can defend their actions and be prosecuted and judged in fairness.
> 
> O.K. understandable but I have been trying to be careful to *NOT* impugn people's characters (which is why I talk about process NOT people). I haven't seen anyone else in this thread attack VLK on a personal or character level?
> 
> IMO what you are saying is innocent until proven guilty but the way you are saying it, or the analogies you used don't quite come across that way.
> 
> I do agree 100% on that though, *innocent until proven guilty*.
> 
> I just want to add, and don't get mad at me please I'm just the messenger, this could get really ugly for VLK if they don't get out ahead of it. IMO it would be better for them to get all the facts out there, pursue prosection of the person(s) responsible if he/she is truly negligent. If they don't this may overtake them. If they have a good, tight, safe for the dogs, clean operation they should not have anything to fear.
> 
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

David, honest to God, I'm not saying this to be unkind, but rather to warn....if you think the things said here were bad, you just wait.

VLK needs to get out ahead of this.

They have a lot more visibility with the public due to the TV show and that has good and bad sides to it.

I was worried the TV show might draw PETA attention, now I'm even more worried...and I am NOT a fan of that group at all.



David Winners said:


> If you go back and read the rants, you will see words like guess, imagination. That's not fair. I can guess how people would feel if it were their civil liberties that were being encroached upon.
> 
> 
> David Winners


----------



## GSDElsa

Tragic accident. However I find it rather comical that people are crying foul about the company not doing enough to punish those involved. They fired the people. Last I checked that's about add much as a private company can do. Other than that it's out of their hands and up to a government agency to investigate if they deem it necessary.


----------



## Betty

I have not seen anything where people indicated that they believed it should be swept under the rug or that it should not be investigated or that it no one should be held accountable if there is negligence.

I have seen people state that they will withhold judgement or decline to join the lynching party until more facts are in.

I have seen David who personally knows some of the people involved say that they are caring towards the dogs and that his experience was that the owner put the dogs first.

First hand experience by someone I know and trust has a lot more weight to me then a critique of a man's affect on a you tube video.

So go ahead, call for someones head, any head. Decide on the internet how someone is running their business improperly and how you would do better. Decide that someone on a video is not sincere and is not saddened.

Go at it. 

And if for any reason you ever suffer such a financial and emotional loss that may be avoidable I hope that people are a little more reserved in deciding what you should of, could of, would of down until they have a few more facts.


----------



## Betty

GSDElsa said:


> Tragic accident. However I find it rather comical that people are crying foul about the company not doing enough to punish those involved. They fired the people. Last I checked that's about add much as a private company can do. Other than that it's out of their hands and up to a government agency to investigate if they deem it necessary.



Truth.


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## Gwenhwyfair

The company can report their findings to, probably would be the USDA (I don't know for sure which jurisdiction) of this based on the other case in Texas with APH, and initiate the investigation. They can file a complaint so it's not comical.

C'mon folks. This isn't anything new under the sun, bad things happen, often it is negligence (not criminal intent) an investigation occurs.

If anything an investigation would probably be better because we've all seen it happen that even if there is no wrong doing it leaves a cloud of doubt in the minds of people if an incident like this is not checked into.

Since this kennel has a TV show they are going to get more visibility on this.

This stuff isn't about being 'mean' or 'poking' at anyone it's how life, law and justice work. 

A prompt formal investigation will probably be the fastest way to get past this!

:shrug:


----------



## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> David, honest to God, I'm not saying this to be unkind, but rather to warn....if you think the things said here were bad, you just wait.
> 
> VLK needs to get out ahead of this.
> 
> They have a lot more visibility with the public due to the TV show and that has good and bad sides to it.
> 
> I was worried the TV show might draw PETA attention, now I'm even more worried...and I am NOT a fan of that group at all.


I appreciate your response, candor, and respect. I take no offense from you whatsoever. I know this could end up very bad for VLK, and I'm ok with that. If they are doing the right thing, they don't have anything to worry about. If they are being negligent, they should have to answer for that.

I should remove myself from the debate because it's hard to be objective when it's your friend on the block. The trainer in question was somewhat of a mentor to me, and he is a great trainer and human being. 

I apologize if my emotions got in the way of fair conversation. Nothing I said here is to be taken with malice. I appreciate your involvement in this discussion and respect your opinion. 

About PETA... don't want to go there. I hope they stay out of it. 

Thanks

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

Highlighted in blue:

I think that's where the disconnect is coming here between us posters.

Those who say it should be investigated are being told we're 'mean' or 'unfair' or going for 'their head'. (stop with over the top rhetoric already- NO one had said that).

Those who say the above and then justify it with 'accidents happen' or 'don't judge' and things along that line are being taken to mean > don't worry about an investigation.

*Does everyone here feel there should be an investigation, by the appropriate authority?*

(be it USDA, AC or State depending on jurisdictions).





Betty said:


> I have not seen anything where people indicated that they believed it should be swept under the rug or that it should not be investigated or that it no one should be held accountable if there is negligence.
> 
> I have seen people state that they will withhold judgement or decline to join the lynching party until more facts are in.
> 
> I have seen David who personally knows some of the people involved say that they are caring towards the dogs and that his experience was that the owner put the dogs first.
> 
> First hand experience by someone I know and trust has a lot more weight to me then a critique of a man's affect on a you tube video.
> 
> So go ahead, call for someones head, any head. Decide on the internet how someone is running their business improperly and how you would do better. Decide that someone on a video is not sincere and is not saddened.
> 
> Go at it.
> 
> And if for any reason you ever suffer such a financial and emotional loss that may be avoidable I hope that people are a little more reserved in deciding what you should of, could of, would of down until they have a few more facts.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you very much. That means a lot to me. 

Given the circumstances I think you've been very fair and mature in your responses.

I hope to have more discussions with you in the future, on other more upbeat topics, lots to learn from you I can tell.  



David Winners said:


> I appreciate your response, candor, and respect. I take no offense from you whatsoever. I know this could end up very bad for VLK, and I'm ok with that. If they are doing the right thing, they don't have anything to worry about. If they are being negligent, they should have to answer for that.
> 
> I should remove myself from the debate because it's hard to be objective when it's your friend on the block. The trainer in question was somewhat of a mentor to me, and he is a great trainer and human being.
> 
> I apologize if my emotions got in the way of fair conversation. Nothing I said here is to be taken with malice. I appreciate your involvement in this discussion and respect your opinion.
> 
> About PETA... don't want to go there. I hope they stay out of it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Betty

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Highlighted in blue:
> 
> I think that's where the disconnect is coming here between us posters.
> 
> Those who say it should be investigated are being told we're 'mean' or 'unfair' or going for 'their head'. (stop with over the top rhetoric already- NO one had said that).
> 
> Those who say the above and then justify it with 'accidents happen' or 'don't judge' and things along that line are being taken to mean > don't worry about an investigation.
> 
> *Does everyone here feel there should be an investigation, by the appropriate authority?*
> 
> (be it USDA, AC or State depending on jurisdictions).




There is enough of a disconnect here that I was thinking the same thing about a few different posts and over the top rhetoric and gigantic assumptions.

It appears to me that you are in more of a lecture mode then a lets discuss mode.

Really don't feel like being lectured today, so I'll leave you to go at it.

Have fun guys!


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## Mrs.K

A police dog is left in the car and dies - "Throw him in jail, how can he treat his partner like that?"
A pet dog is left in a car and dies - "someone should do the same to them, why are people so stupid, prosecute to the highest level!"
10 dogs from a famous kennel die in a trailer - Tragic accident, it happens....

See the difference there? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

You know it's not lecturing, it's pointing out that people are getting too personal. I called you on it, that's all. It's getting to the point where it could be considered flaming. 

I'm not a fan of overheated rhetoric because it doesn't do any good.





Betty said:


> There is enough of a disconnect here that I was thinking the same thing about a few different posts and over the top rhetoric and gigantic assumptions.
> 
> It appears to me that you are in more of a lecture mode then a lets discuss mode.
> 
> Really don't feel like being lectured today, so I'll leave you to go at it.
> 
> Have fun guys!


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> A police dog is left in the car and dies - "Throw him in jail, how can he treat his partner like that?"
> A pet dog is left in a car and dies - "someone should do the same to them, why are people so stupid, prosecute to the highest level!"
> 10 dogs from a famous kennel die in a trailer - Tragic accident, it happens....
> 
> See the difference there?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


right. It happens. And other than the kennel firing the people there is nothing else that can be done from their end so really no sense in throwing hissy fits over the kennel owners video. Perhaps he should tar and feather them? Considering this is in the media quite extensively I think we are safe to assume that the appropriate investigating agencies are aware of what happened and THEY will tar and feather as needed.


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## Smithie86

It is interesting that dogs (in the past examples) that have died in transit with an airline, people are all up in arms to go after them on the various boards and lists. How is this different?


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## TAR HEEL MOM

If you watched the video you would know that he did mmention that the 22 hour trip takes them 30 due to the number of stops they make to check on the dogs. He also said the accident happened at the hotel, NOT on the road.

I can't claim to be informed about anything in this case other than what has been reported, but I also can't hold the kennel owners at fault for something one of their employees did or didn't do on the road. Yes, I would expect them to handle the situation so that it never happened again, and it sure sounds like he has done that.

I can claim to be knowledgeable about kennel procedures since I am the executive assistant at an animal shelter and I can tell you that even with the extraordinary care that I and the animal caretakers exhibit, that sometime terrible accidents happen. We lost a newborn pup once under tragic conditions. Measures were immediately taken (it was a mechanical thing) so that it could never happen again. 

I wish only the best for the VLK owners and staff. I am sure their hearts are broken enough without all of us heaping so much blame on them.


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## Betty

Mrs.K said:


> A police dog is left in the car and dies - "Throw him in jail, how can he treat his partner like that?"
> A pet dog is left in a car and dies - "someone should do the same to them, why are people so stupid, prosecute to the highest level!"
> 10 dogs from a famous kennel die in a trailer - Tragic accident, it happens....
> 
> See the difference there?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I see what you are saying. Let me explain the difference as I see it.

The pets left in a vehicle are normally very clear cut.  Police dogs are sometimes 100 percent human error and has often been equipment failure. 

This is not clear cut to me. We don't know what happened, what failed. And until we do I'm not ready to say "hang him". 

That's the difference to me.


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## Betty

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You know it's not lecturing, it's pointing out that people are getting too personal. I called you on it, that's all. It's getting to the point where it could be considered flaming.
> 
> I'm not a fan of overheated rhetoric because it doesn't do any good.



Flaming? Apparently we have even more of an disconnect then I thought. 

But you may want to make sure your side of the street is clean before you point out that mine needs sweeping.


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## Betty

Smithie86 said:


> It is interesting that dogs (in the past examples) that have died in transit with an airline, people are all up in arms to go after them on the various boards and lists. How is this different?


That's an interesting slant Sue and not one I thought of. 

I think the airlines are held more accountable because again, its normally something that is very clear cut and they have very clear procedures printed when you arrange to ship a dog. Normally it happens as a violation of their own procedure.

And there is also the 3rd party aspect. This is what they have been paid to do, transport some one else's pet.

As I said before I would just like to know what happened before, what failed, before I say hang them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I dished a little to blitzkrieg but that was only to the level he was dishing at me, a LOT of very sarcastic and personal barbs at me, so a little of his own medicine... and I completely ignored his last post in this thread.

I've not accused people who have posted 'just an accident' type of comments of being cruel to animals, not caring about dogs, nor have I said they were being 'mean' or 'unfair' to dogs, which would be the flip side of what you and some others are doing.

I also did *not* jump in and say anything bad about anyone at VLK personally. I did mention processes/procedures could be the cause of this problem and I stand by that (and I maybe proven wrong or I may not!). Still it's not a personal condemnation of anyone involved.

If I can have a decent conversation with David, mutual respect with him, a person who IMO of anyone here has the most understanding and connection to this incident then clearly I'm not the flamer here, Betty. 

There are two things that I agree with David on 150%, Innocent until proven guilty and if there is guilt found during an investigation the people responsible should be held accountable according the the applicable laws.

The concern some people have here is that there won't be an investigation by the proper authority (see smithie86 and Mrs Ks last posts). 



Apparently that concern, to some is akin to tar and feathering and decapitation and that's going too far.






Betty said:


> Flaming? Apparently we have even more of an disconnect then I thought.
> 
> But you may want to make sure your side of the street is clean before you point out that mine needs sweeping.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sue!.... :help: 

That's what Mrs K, myself and Sue have all been saying at different points over and over again. 






Betty said:


> That's an interesting slant Sue and not one I thought of.
> 
> I think the airlines are held more accountable because again, its normally something that is very clear cut and they have very clear procedures printed when you arrange to ship a dog. Normally it happens as a violation of their own procedure.
> 
> And there is also the 3rd party aspect. This is what they have been paid to do, transport some one else's pet.
> 
> As I said before I would just like to know what happened before, what failed, before I say hang them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

btw...I don't think negiligence is limited by ownership or vendor status. Owners can be cited for cruelty, negligence or neglect.

Reading the AMK9 v APH case no matter if the shipper is the owner certain conditions and standards have to be met when transporting animals. (AMK9 case cited Texas state laws and USDA regs btw)


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## jafo220

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

Judging by his calmness, I would say don't be supprised if they fail to fully divulge all information. It sounds like he knows what happened. It was a bad judgement call on his trainer. He has since fired the trainer or trainers. This is where it gets into legalities and it sounds like he may be getting ready for some type of legal action hence the lack of information. You don't want to go out and put all your information laid out to the public until all the legalities are out of the way. It's then after the court hearing and such if there are any, that all the info is offered to the public. 

It sounds to me like he approaching all of this with a level head. He seems to be taking care of buisness one step at a time. He's already protected his remaining dogs from further injury or death by releasing the trainers responsible. I'm also certain it won't happen again. It bad publicity and he seems to genuinely care for the dogs. 

I think he is handling it about as well as you can at this point. There's no room for knee jerk reaction. It has to be a methodical process to insure proper SOP's are in place and always followed. The other stuff comes second. 

Another thing that needs to be realised. Really, he owes no one here a in depth explanation. The military, yes, other customers, yes. Internet dwellers, not so much. I think he did a plausible thing by making a video explaining steps have been taken and further actions will be taken. He has the most to loose out of anyone, he doesn't seem a fool to me. He seems steady and taking care of buisness. 

JMO


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## Gwenhwyfair

Agree with your first paragraph jafo220, astute observation.


I think, JMO, that his TV show exposure may change some of the dynamics though, with respect to the public, including exposure on the internet, he's very well known because of the show, that may place different pressures on him. We'll see in time I guess.





jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> Judging by his calmness, I would say don't be supprised if they fail to fully divulge all information. It sounds like he knows what happened. It was a bad judgement call on his trainer. He has since fired the trainer or trainers. This is where it gets into legalities and it sounds like he may be getting ready for some type of legal action hence the lack of information. You don't want to go out and put all your information laid out to the public until all the legalities are out of the way. It's then after the court hearing and such if there are any, that all the info is offered to the public.
> 
> It sounds to me like he approaching all of this with a level head. He seems to be taking care of buisness one step at a time. He's already protected his remaining sogs from further injury or death by releasing the trainers responsible. I'm also certain it won't happen again. It bad publicity and he seems to genuinely care for the dogs.
> 
> I think he is handling it about as well as you can at this point. There's no room for knee jerk reaction. It has to be a methodical process to insure proper SOP's are in place and always followed. The other stuff comes second.
> 
> Another thing that needs to be realised. Really, he owes no one here a in depth explanation. The military, yes, other customers, yes. Internet dwellers, not so much. I think he did a plausible thing by making a video explaining steps have been taken and further actions will be taken. He has the most to loose out of anyone, he doesn't seem a fool to me. He seems steady and taking care of buisness.
> 
> JMO


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## Blitzkrieg1

I sincerely hope someone has contacted the CIA I forgot to mention them. Remember to attach the youtube clip to your email! Accidents can never happen! The good news is the investigation has already been completed on the GSD forum by the GSDFIE (german shepherd forum internet experts). Less work for them! Hope they have a rope handy or maybe someone on here could lend them one?


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## Mrs.K

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I sincerely hope someone has contacted the CIA I forgot to mention them. Remember to attach the youtube clip to your email! Accidents can never happen! The good news is the investigation has already been completed on the GSD forum by the GSDFIE (german shepherd forum internet experts). Less work for them! Hope they have a rope handy or maybe someone on here could lend them one?


Jeeez... really? :help: :rofl::hammer:


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## Blitzkrieg1

NEWS and a BREAKTHROUGH in the case everyone!

I wish I could take credit but this was Deputy Director of the *GSDFIE RAMBO's* idea.(We decided he would be the Deputy Director based on his qualifications as compared to other members of the ageny).
We can turn the LEASHES into NOOSES!!! Deputy Director Rambo will ofcourse lead the inter agency taskforce. We are in good hands!


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## AkariKuragi

That was some sarcasm. XD

I don't think anyone here has said there shouldn't be an investigation. I think a lot of people are assuming an investigation is not going to happen (at least that's how it's coming across to me), which I highly doubt considering the press exposure on this incident. And an investigation should be done. I just hate overly dramatic, emotional responses to things that require an assumption of knowledge.

If this was a police k9, a private owner, etc. I would be just as sad, but I still would not be angry unless they left the dog with intent to cause it distress and death. Why? Because the majority of these individuals are just regular people like you and me. They love their animals and just made a horrible mistake. I sympathise with them because I know that I am not above making mistakes. You will never see me condemn or criticise someone who did not intend to harm their animal. Now if they did it in the past and do it again, then that becomes something I would get mad at and become less sympathetic to the person. I think people who act like the people who leave their dog in a car should be burned at the stake ("this should be done to them!" etc.) are overreacting, or at least reacting wrongly. It is a tragic thing, but it will never be on the same level as intended abuse, at least to me.

Everyone makes mistakes. No one wakes up in the morning thinking "I'm going to kill my beloved family pet in a horrible way today!" Well... Maybe some people, but to me that's the difference between an incident being tragic or disgusting.

But in the end people on this forum can condemn or criticise people all they want, it really doesn't effect anything. An investigation is called for, if it doesn't happen in a reasonable amount of time THEN get all up in arms about it. Just try to keep on mind that these were two human beings who did not intend to cause harm to these animals. They should, and have, been held responsible. If they are found negligent in a court of law they will pay for it. But that doesn't make them horrible people. At least in my opinion. :/


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sarcasm, more like a boomerang. Heh! What I find 'comical' is people who come on the internet, state their thoughts and opinions as 'the final word' *and then* accuse everyone else of being an internet expert, now that's funny right there, I don't care who ya are.   Who would'a thunk ole blitzie is a Chihuahua!

I didn't expect people to have such strong reactions though, especially if they aren't really connected to VLK, that's what is surprising to me.

It reminds me of how people were discussing the Zimmerman/martin case.

A lot of people discussed their views online, on facebook and forums. That's what people do now a days. It used to be face to face at the coffee shop. Should we just not have discussions or forums anymore if we aren't supposed to 'think out loud' so to speak or discuss different points of view here in current affairs? 

The only one here in this thread who was NOT one of the 'internet experts' was David Winners, who was very gracious and fair. 

What I disagree with is imputing the most negative motive possible on those you don't agree with.


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## Darth_Ariel

I personally think Ken is sorry, he doesn't convey emotions well most likely because he's an older male who was raised not to do it in public especially for a camera for hundreds of thousands of people. 

That being said, I do think he should say more than just 'bad judgement call', people are passionate about animals, just like they are. People tend to want to know why 10 animals died more than why 10 humans died, when we keep animals we're in charge of their care. I don't think Ken is at fault, he wasn't in the vehicle nor was the other trainers he employs. 

To me, early morning at a hotel says they most likely stayed there to catch some shut eye. When you take the responsibility for that many lives, you don't get to really make a bad judgement call without scrutiny from a lot of people and more than losing your job. We have technological advances that make it easy to check on so many things if only the effort is made. I'm sure it would be possible, if these measures were implemented for failure. Sometimes temperature gauges read wrong or a malfunction is not detectable through that technology, but if I can unlock the doors to my home anywhere with my phone, someone should be able to check on the lives entrusted in their care 100 feet away. Very simple devices could prevent most unfortunate or tragic outcomes. 

I don't expect a witch hunt or vigilante justice, but I would personally expect more than a c'est la vie accidents happen sort of public response. While we don't know quite what happened, these men chose the profession they were in knowing they'd be caring for living creatures that would rely on them for all of their needs especially if contained in a crate. They made the trip multiple times and knew the general climate, the time it would take and most other aspects you gain from a seasoned trip. If it was a mechanical/equipment error then more fail safes should be implemented and the company who made it should have to face that. If it was an "I decided to stop at the hotel instead of creating a switch off system and something happened" they should be held accountable for that. 

If you can fall asleep at the wheel and be charged for that accident, you should be able to be faulted for mentally falling asleep at the wheel and costing 10 living things that depended on you their life. The judgement wasn't a bad call, it was a choice that wasn't made in an emergency. Sometimes we make bad choices and that costs us big.


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## sparra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I don't know what tall poppy syndrome is but I am aware of confirmation bias, conflict of interest, self protective behavior and other documented problems that cause people to not believe one way or the other. We ignore warning signs all the time when they conflict with something we believe, think we know or understand. These are problems that also cause business operations to ignore or not see internal problems that lead to catastrophic failure.
> 
> Whether it's a day care or a large trading firm on wallstreet, often (not always...but very often) there are missteps, breakdowns, procedures that are being ignored preceeding a catastrophic failure. That's not an indictment on everyone in the business either, it's just a reality.
> 
> Pointing out possible faults/problems is does not always = personal condemnation
> Seems like we are going to have two camps, the lets sweep it under the rug accidents happen camp and the something isn't right here and this should be investigated camp.9 Count me in the second camp, which will often be portrayed as the 'mean' people, when in fact all we want is the truth.
> 
> Those dogs probably suffered quite a bit before they died.
> 
> I suggest people review the court case about the incident David brought up earlier where APH had developed bad habits that became bad process and lead to the death of 14 dogs in a container truck as an example of *how* this can happen. I linked to an article which has a link to courtroom papers.
> 
> I also respectfully submit, *none* of us here really know all the details therefore it is all conjecture, including your thoughts.



Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I did read your other thread about these guys ........you seemed to be looking for a reason to discredit them.......seems you have found it.......


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## lesslis

IMO, don't be surprised if this slowly fades away without much more hupla. $$$$ and maybe free dogs will be thrown around to calm the most effected and to keep things quiet. Yep, that happens!!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Expressing concerns about them going up to a 500 dog operation as they were advertising does *not* = discrediting.

I may be wrong but will you give me credit if I end up being right...probably not.

Humans have an amazing ability to ignore reality a.k.a. Easter Island Syndrome...

Look it up. 

BTW- I bump into this attitude over and over again....I see a red flag. I point out red flag, person (for whatever reason) doesn't want to know about the red flag and I'm the bad guy for pointing it out. Happened to me over and over again in corp. world, even when they were PAYING me to warn them about problems. 






sparra said:


> Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I did read your other thread about these guys ........you seemed to be looking for a reason to discredit them.......seems you have found it.......


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## Gwenhwyfair

I've been watching a TV show called the 'The Profit'.

An established knowledgeable entrepreneur goes into businesses that are established, have been doing well in the past and then 'hit walls' and start to downslide usually due to their inability to adapt to their growth.

In the show even though the business owners know they need to change up some of their ways of doing business, even though they shake hands with the man who is going to help them, they not only fight him they get angry when he shows them how to keep their business on track. Some of them are SO resistant and SO defensive they won't keep their end of the bargain (following his instructions) that he walks away. Not because the business doesn't have potential but because the people running the business THINK he's putting them down from a personal or moral level, their egos get in the way, they can't get past the feeling they are being 'discredited'. 

It's a great show from two aspects A) highlights what I refer to as the 'being right is more important then actually getting it right' attitude people have B) for anyone wanting to learn how process affects business growth it's a great show.

I really haven't figured out why people on this board are so defensive about this incident, though, since none of us are really invested and I've seen similar incidents where dogs have died and many were *far harsher* in their judgment then about this kennel and this incident. :shrug:


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## Gwenhwyfair

btw- next episode happens to be about a dog business, The Profit will be trying to help a kennel in LA, LA Dogworks. It airs Tuesday Aug. 27 10 pm EST. 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100788798


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## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> NEWS and a BREAKTHROUGH in the case everyone!
> 
> I wish I could take credit but this was Deputy Director of the *GSDFIE RAMBO's* idea.(We decided he would be the Deputy Director based on his qualifications as compared to other members of the ageny).
> We can turn the LEASHES into NOOSES!!! Deputy Director Rambo will ofcourse lead the inter agency taskforce. We are in good hands!


I want to know where you got that black leash!


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## Saphire

Lol Jax!!


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## jafo220

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Agree with your first paragraph jafo220, astute observation.
> 
> 
> I think, JMO, that his TV show exposure may change some of the dynamics though, with respect to the public, including exposure on the internet, he's very well known because of the show, that may place different pressures on him. We'll see in time I guess.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App

Reguarding his show effecting the dynamics of a court proceeding, I'm sure it would to an extent. He may have celebrity status in certain circles, but he is not a high profile individual. 

I think this will all go quietly away. I think he's said about all he feels he needs to say in reguards to the incident. Unless there are laws in place protecting animals in that state, I feel it's a done deal. If anything else happens, I think it's a private matter. It's not like there was out and out abuse going on, or negligence on a consistant basis. If those two were the case and he had lost numerous other dogs over a period of time lending to how he practices his buisness, then I think there would be tons more attention and much more interest by government officials. If it happens again, I would have to say he'd be done as far as large contracts go. I mean who would want to be affiliated with that? Thats why I think he's doing everything possible to hold this down and make sure it doesn't happen again.


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## Mrs.K

It may go quietly go away but the dog community does not forget and 10 dogs dying in a single incident, that will be on his "record" forever and will never be forgotten. No matter how quiet it goes away publicly.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm only going to address the point in blue.

I linked earlier in this thread to the AMK9 v APH case which is similar in that dogs were left in an unventilated container truck without proper monitoring. APH claimed the AC unit failed and 14 of them died.

In the court paperwork of AMK9 v APH both Texas regs AND USDA (federal) regs were cited regarding humane and safe handling of animals during transport.

So while I haven't looked up specific codes that would apply (partly because it's not clear in which state the deaths occurred) I would be really surprised if there is NO animal welfare law that would apply given the number of dogs which died *IF* it was determined to not be an unavoidable accident.

Other then that, what Mrs K. said above. One thing I've noticed hanging around IPO and PSA and some working dog folks, the working dog community is pretty small tight knit community. 



jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> Reguarding his show effecting the dynamics of a court proceeding, I'm sure it would to an extent. He may have celebrity status in certain circles, but he is not a high profile individual.
> 
> I think this will all go quietly away. I think he's said about all he feels he needs to say in reguards to the incident. *Unless there are laws in place protecting animals in that state,* I feel it's a done deal. If anything else happens, I think it's a private matter. It's not like there was out and out abuse going on, or negligence on a consistant basis. If those two were the case and he had lost numerous other dogs over a period of time lending to how he practices his buisness, then I think there would be tons more attention and much more interest by government officials. If it happens again, I would have to say he'd be done as far as large contracts go. I mean who would want to be affiliated with that? Thats why I think he's doing everything possible to hold this down and make sure it doesn't happen again.


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## Mrs.K

They may say "Oh my gosh, what a tragic accident." but they are talking. 

They rip breeders/handlers/trainers apart for far less. As happy go lucky the whole tight knit working dog community seems... it's a brutal community with more drama and politics any Soap Opera could possibly produce. He'll still get his dogs though...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh I agree, well except maybe for the happy go lucky part! LOL! They have fun but tend to be a pretty intense group, it's a small world, they know each other and are often also brutally direct as you say. I learned pretty quickly it was best to just be quiet and..._listen_.

People who think I or others have been unfair or mean in this thread need to hang out at more IPO/PSA and other protection training/trials...... 





Mrs.K said:


> They may say "Oh my gosh, what a tragic accident." but they are talking.
> 
> They rip breeders/handlers/trainers apart for far less. As happy go lucky the whole tight knit working dog community seems... it's a brutal community with more drama and politics any Soap Opera could possibly produce. He'll still get his dogs though...


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## jafo220

Mrs.K said:


> It may go quietly go away but the dog community does not forget and 10 dogs dying in a single incident, that will be on his "record" forever and will never be forgotten. No matter how quiet it goes away publicly.


 
Never said it would not follow him. But for the normal everyday pet owner it most likely will. It's the sad reality of it.


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## ODINsFREKI

I have an alarm in my crate that makes a loud buzz if the temp hits over a specified temp. They sell working dogs and had no monitor or alarm. I have one in the family wagon for piece of mind since the ac doesnt hit that area too well.

A tragedy created by ignorance. Sad.


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