# Breeder issue!



## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Well hubby and I were set on a pup from a specific breeder (in Ontario), so we visited this breeder and put a deposit down for a litter. Last week we get a call that this breeder went to see the female and realized she actually is not pregnant, but that our 200 dollar deposit can be placed on the other two litters she is expecting within the next month. We already were sent the contract for this litter we were supposed to get a pup from. This is all new to us. So we said ok to the next litter. After doing some research and talking to some very helpful ppl, we were told this new litter has an extremely bad temperment and we were advised to not buy from them. Hubby and I decided to start looking at different breeders and found one we really liked. Dogs were great and breeders very informative and you can tell they really care for their dogs! So we put a deposit with them. Our issue now is that the original breeder still has our 200 dollar deposit. I e-mailed her today and still no response. Is there anyway we can get our money back? Or are we just screwed. I'm really upset because I don't understand how you can promise ppl a specific litter, take their money and then call a week before and tell us that the dog is actually not pregnant afterall. Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

It is not uncommon for breeders to offer a "transfer of deposit" to another litter.
The fact that you "agreed" to the transfer....gives the breeder the option now to keep your deposit...IF you decide to change your mind.
Most breeders require "non-refundable" deposits on puppies/litters....you should check your contract.
My only suggestion is.....contact the breeder and speak directly to them...
JMO & Best wishes!


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## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

GSD84 said:


> Well hubby and I were set on a pup from a specific breeder (in Ontario), so we visited this breeder and put a deposit down for a litter. Last week we get a call that this breeder went to see the female and realized she actually is not pregnant, but that our 200 dollar deposit can be placed on the other two litters she is expecting within the next month. We already were sent the contract for this litter we were supposed to get a pup from. This is all new to us. So we said ok to the next litter. After doing some research and talking to some very helpful ppl, we were told this new litter has an extremely bad temperment and we were advised to not buy from them. Hubby and I decided to start looking at different breeders and found one we really liked. Dogs were great and breeders very informative and you can tell they really care for their dogs! So we put a deposit with them. Our issue now is that the original breeder still has our 200 dollar deposit. I e-mailed her today and still no response. Is there anyway we can get our money back? Or are we just screwed. I'm really upset because I don't understand how you can promise ppl a specific litter, take their money and then call a week before and tell us that the dog is actually not pregnant afterall. Any advice is greatly appreciated.


I had the same problem but I paid in full, $1500, breeder still has my money and doesn't return my e-mails or answer my phone calls... I have taken it to the better business bureau hoping to see my money again. I would highly recommend you report them to the better business bureau. Funny enough that breeder is also from Ontario but wasn't a gsd breeder she was a Doberman breeder.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Scuba....sorry, I gotta ask...
The breeder made you "pre-pay" for a puppy?....and you never receievd the puppy??


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I think that it's fairly common for puppy contracts to state that if a pup cannot be provided out of the litter the deposit was placed on, that the $$ be transferred to a different litter. Some breeders will refund you but they are not required to if you sign such a contract. Perhaps you could wait for the litter after the one with the temperament issues?

I went through a similar issue only with a positive result. My breeder (I had already paid in full for the puppy as well) had a pup ready for me and there were complications causing him to not be a good fit. He offered me a placement on any of the three litters he had coming up OR the option to get a full refund. I chose to wait (because I liked how he handled the situation) and could not be happier with the service, the contact and the fantastic pup I ended up with.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm confused . 
You visited a breeder . Something must have impressed you enough for you to leave a deposit . 
What exactly did you see?

Who were these experts that said the other had "extremely bad temperament"?

Go back to the kennel and visit the dam , and sire if available, and satisfy your own judgement.

Pay particular attention to young stock -- animals related to the sire and dam.

Seems like the person has some breeding frequency , which means they ought to be able to provide you with contact information on previous puppy buyers from this "plan b" female . 
Ask for their vet's phone number and ask his / her opinion.

Breeder number one did nothing untoward . Sometimes females go through false pregnancies , or resorb their pups . They took your deposit. They offered you one or two other options. 

I don't know any of the "players" -- so am totally unbiased.

With breeder number two , were the pups on the ground ??

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

robinhuerta said:


> Scuba....sorry, I gotta ask...
> The breeder made you "pre-pay" for a puppy?....and you never receievd the puppy??


No she wanted a $500 down for the pup but I paid in full. The back up litter that her and I talked about wasn't used and I didn't agree with the other 2 dogs and it then broke our agreement. I never got a puppy and am out $1500, this has gone on for a while now and I took it to the BBB last week.
Anyways, looks like I found a very nice german shepherd puppy now.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Congrats on you finding a different breeder and puppy.....
I'm sorry to hear of the *other* experience.....I hope it gets rectified soon for you.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> It is not uncommon for breeders to offer a "transfer of deposit" to another litter.
> The fact that you "agreed" to the transfer....gives the breeder the option now to keep your deposit...IF you decide to change your mind.
> Most breeders require "non-refundable" deposits on puppies/litters....you should check your contract.
> My only suggestion is.....contact the breeder and speak directly to them...
> JMO & Best wishes!


May have to contact her directly. I wonder if the law applies here where I do not have to ipod my end of tge contract since she didnt uphold hers in regards to havinf tge pup.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I'm confused .
> You visited a breeder . Something must have impressed you enough for you to leave a deposit .
> What exactly did you see?
> 
> ...


Let me first say this is all new to me so I have been researching before and after we went. She was very knowledge able but now that I think about it she did not show us the father and the mother was offsite. When we went she only had the litter that was just boehm and four week old pupS. I do not want to mention names but I was told by the different ppl within this last week to be careful with this breeder and that there are many hereditary health issues that have arisen with her pups. As for breeder number two we met all the dogs as well as the pregnant mom. Who was definately pregnsnt. And we also saw some previos pups that were older around 15 weeks and they seemed great. Once again now that I think of it through first breeder refused to take us in the back to see the rest of her dogs. Lastly this new breeder said within the last yr 7 ppl have walked away from that kennel, lost their deposit and bought from her. First breeder only had her dogs prelimmed for hips elbow where this new breeder has all the paperworl.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Sorry typing from my phone. Bad grammar.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't take deposits till the pups are 5 to 6 weeks of age . Even then it is not necessary. My word is my bond , if I say I will hold something for you , I will. There have been times when people offered me more to get "on the list" , not fair, not ethical.

Even with a female obviously pregnant things can go wrong and still have no pups .

I seem to recall you asking the forum for recommended kennels . Just out of curiosity was kennel number one recommended ? 
Barrie is a site for puppy mill activity .

hope this one goes well for you.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 

Carmen


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Why don't you post the pedigree in question here and see if it's as bad as people are leading you to believe? A very, very good and well-known SchH person told me the exact same thing about my puppy. But 10 people even more knowledgable told me otherwise. The problem is, people can think that the "temperment" will be bad just because it's out of their element and not something that they would want. 

Also, I'm sorry, but don't talk about reporting the breeder over this! If it was a non refundable deposit, it's a non refundable deposit....she's offering to transfer your deposit and now you're talking about ditching her because of ??? some random person talking trash?

Now, maybe these people are correct in their assessment. Maybe not.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

scuba_bob said:


> I had the same problem but I paid in full, $1500, breeder still has my money and doesn't return my e-mails or answer my phone calls... I have taken it to the better business bureau hoping to see my money again. I would highly recommend you report them to the better business bureau. Funny enough that breeder is also from Ontario but wasn't a gsd breeder she was a Doberman breeder.


Anyone who isn't accredited by the BBB doesn't have to answer to them. They aren't an official agency that can make them reimburse you, they just try to mediate. Only companies that value having a good BBB rating will respond which unfortunately isn't too many these days.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I don't take deposits till the pups are 5 to 6 weeks of age . Even then it is not necessary. My word is my bond , if I say I will hold something for you , I will. There have been times when people offered me more to get "on the list" , not fair, not ethical.
> 
> Even with a female obviously pregnant things can go wrong and still have no pups .
> 
> ...


The original breeder is south of toronto. Second breeder was recommended and ime happy with them


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Why don't you post the pedigree in question here and see if it's as bad as people are leading you to believe? A very, very good and well-known SchH person told me the exact same thing about my puppy. But 10 people even more knowledgable told me otherwise. The problem is, people can think that the "temperment" will be bad just because it's out of their element and not something that they would want.
> 
> Also, I'm sorry, but don't talk about reporting the breeder over this! If it was a non refundable deposit, it's a non refundable deposit....she's offering to transfer your deposit and now you're talking about ditching her because of ??? some random person talking trash?
> 
> Now, maybe these people are correct in their assessment. Maybe not.


Well what makes me upset is she stated they were also very healthy which I found out frim three different ppl is untrue. And these are not just random ppl. We have two young kids and I really was hoping for a healthys dog with a good temperament. Also the fact that seven ppl left and decided to leave their deposit and buys elsewhere is scary


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Sounds like a $200 lesson. Check the contract. When I was breeding I had in my contract whether the deposit was for a pup from a specific sire/dam or not, also my contract had a time limit. The contract was good for 1 year or 18months, whatever we decided based on what they were looking for. 
The way I see it, if you agreed to the transfer of deposit then the breeder did nothing wrong and they are entitled to keep the deposit if you decide to back out of the deal. If they refund your deposit then consider yourself lucky. 
Annette


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am in KW Ontario - would you mind PMing (private messaging) me both breeders?

I will not share the information but I would like to hold on to it for future reference.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Many times you are just uncertain as to whether a female is pregnant (carrying small litter) or empty - partially LOL because you want them to be pregnant so badly!!!!

Like Carmen, I don't take deposits - things happen, female is empty, people go to a club and get a puppy from someone in that club and therefore will be welcome at the club and get alot of help and it is better for them, they lose jobs etc...no point in taking that deposit until that litter is on the ground, and pups are thriving...

Unless you can hook up with a few others who have lost deposits, and file some grievance with local authorities, then you have just learned a $200 lesson...

good luck with the new pup - definitely sounds like a better situation!

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If the Canadian BBB is the same as the American BBB then I'm pretty sure they won't have any way of getting your deposit back. The original breeder does sound a lot like a puppy mill, she was expecting one litter that failed and already has 2 available in the same month! I don't know much about breeding, but I don't think any "reputable" breeder would have more than one litter at the same time. I know sometimes things overlap, like having 7 week old pups and a female in labor, but never to that extent that they can offer you another litter within a month.

But besides that, sounds like you won't get your money back if there are seven others who haven't, but its still worth a try.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Mart.....many reputable breeders can and do have litters sometimes very close in age. It depends on the circumstances involved.
I've done it.. (not an ideal or easy situation)...but it was necessary.
Having limited litters or better "timing" does not constitute a good or bad breeder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Robin...I know the situtation sometimes calls for it depending on whats going on with and how many females a breeder has. My preference would be just one litter at a time in order for the pups to have all the attention they can get. And I'm sure there are plenty of good breeders that can handle more than one litter, in this situation though something just smells off. She couldn't see the parents, the dam was offsite, too many excuses that would've turned me off in a second. These are the kinds of people that will battle to keep $200 because they really don't care about return business. I can see a reputable breeder giving a deposit back just for the fact that the person can come back to them later due to the good experience and finally get the dog from the breeding they like.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

martemchik said:


> ! I don't know much about breeding, but I don't think any "reputable" breeder would have more than one litter at the same time. I know sometimes things overlap, like having 7 week old pups and a female in labor, but never to that extent that they can offer you another litter within a month.



Right - you don't know much about breeding and this is a very very unfair assumption....females seem to cycle concurrently, and litters are often clustered within a few weeks....there is more to being "reputable" than whether one has 2 litters at the same time! Most breeders HAVE more than one female....I have 2 of breeding age, one will do her second and last litter I hope while another does her first...both should have come in heat already, but we are still waiting...while I will have 2 litters "at once" (I HOPE!!!) that has nothing to do wiht being "reputable" - and actually, Hexe lives with someone else who will whlep the litter...

As far as a comment about being advised on possible temperament problems based on a pedigree...always these are only POSSIBLE/PROBABLE based on the pedigree...I know of a litter where I have seen 3 pups - purchased one for a client actually.....I was not happy with the backmassing in the pedigree, and 2 pups showed issues that I expected given that conclusion. The one I purchased for the client (friend of a friend) is exemplary....the breeder had wanted me to take Puppy A for that client, but I ruled her out...instead choosing Puppy B...who the owner of the sire preferred as well....the 2 pups that show some issues only show minor ones, but still enough to justify my opinion of the pedigree. I would not have recommended a pup from it unless I could see them for myself to evaluate.

Lee


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If the Canadian BBB is the same as the American BBB then I'm pretty sure they won't have any way of getting your deposit back. The original breeder does sound a lot like a puppy mill, she was expecting one litter that failed and already has 2 available in the same month! I don't know much about breeding, but I don't think any "reputable" breeder would have more than one litter at the same time. I know sometimes things overlap, like having 7 week old pups and a female in labor, but never to that extent that they can offer you another litter within a month.
> 
> But besides that, sounds like you won't get your money back if there are seven others who haven't, but its still worth a try.


Well she told me she has about 50 pups a yr where this new breeder only has two litters a yr. The first breeder her husband is a judge in those dog shows. I think we will file a complaint with the german shepherds society of Canada as well as the Canadian Kennel Club, and see what happens.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Robin...I know the situtation sometimes calls for it depending on whats going on with and how many females a breeder has. My preference would be just one litter at a time in order for the pups to have all the attention they can get. And I'm sure there are plenty of good breeders that can handle more than one litter, in this situation though something just smells off. She couldn't see the parents, the dam was offsite, too many excuses that would've turned me off in a second. These are the kinds of people that will battle to keep $200 because they really don't care about return business. I can see a reputable breeder giving a deposit back just for the fact that the person can come back to them later due to the good experience and finally get the dog from the breeding they like.


Thats exactly it. This new breeder we are going with said we will get our deposit back if we don't want the dog, as she wants the dog to go to good homes, and there have been times when they said no to ppl. She also had me fill out a huge questionnaire and even recommended a certain type of pup for our family lifestyle. Something the other breeder did not do. I had to ask all the questions with her.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

bocron said:


> Sounds like a $200 lesson.


As harsh as it sounds, I agree. 


I don't see where the breeder has done anything wrong here. Whether people agree with breeders taking deposits ahead of time, or transferring them to other litters, or keeping them if the buyer backs out is sort of a moot point. THIS breeder happens to work that way and it is by no means an unusual way for a breeder to do business. You put in a deposit on a litter that was not yet confirmed, and as sometimes happens the bitch ended up not pregnant. Then in what is a very common practice, the breeder offered you to transfer that deposit to a future litter, which you also agreed to. The fact that you later changed your mind really has no bearing on the situation. You agreed to these terms in writing. Double check your contract to make sure there are no stipulations for getting your deposit back, but there probably aren't. 

Research into the breeder, dogs, bloodlines, pedigrees, etc.. should have been thoroughly done before putting in a deposit. And then when the original litter didn't happen, more research again into the next proposed litter before agreeing to transfer the deposit. It is not the breeder's fault that you agreed to something without being fully informed first, and then changed your mind later after learning more about the situation. The breeder set the terms of the deposit and you agreed to those, in writing. So long as the breeder is following what was outlined in the contract, I don't see how the breeder has done anything wrong from a business or legal standpoint.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

I do understand where a lot of you are coming from. Just upset to find out about all the issues after the deposit was handed over. Will talk to the original breeder and see what happens


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there has to be fairness -- I don't know any of the players , but in defense of breeder number one , the moment she discovered there were no pups she was proactive , approached you , offered you a pup from the next litter. You can not do much better than that ! 
I take it you want a family companion animal -- which is not rocket science . You were impressed enough with her to leave a deposit . You signed a contract willingly , happily, not under duress. 
Some kennels have co ownership arrangements which may explain not seeing the mother dog --- but you could have asked to physically visit the home , the person that has the dog . You could have asked the breeder , since this is an important family member , to book an appointment to go , with the breeder , and visit this potential mum-dog . You could have asked the same visit option when the pups are around 4 to 5 weeks of age , with the breeder , just to see how things are coming along. Of course all of this is now a moot point since the female came up barren.

Breeder number two is not better because they have fewer litters. They are new . Probably new to the breed so know little about what an ideal GSD should be . Who knows they may have selected the breeding pair because their colour matches . They may know dinky all about drives and character and feeding and raising , and raising them in such a way to maximize potential and matching them to the owner.
Remember there is "after service" , 10 to 14 (hopefully) years where you would like support , advice, and sharing . 

Statistics also show that many people stick their toe in the water have a litter or two and then evaporate , nowhere to be seen, the average life span of the breeder's interest being about 5 years. That was in print in the Dogs In Canada magazine some years ago. They come , they go. 

Let's look at these pedigrees.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree totally with Chris of the Wildhaus.

I don't see there being any issues . You knew that the dam was not present on site and it is normal for the male not being there as stud services are bought from outside males. 

How did you locate this breeder number one? What created your interest in the first place .
How did you locate breeder number two . Where were these "helpful" people in the beginning . What do they base their comment on "extremely bad temperament" on .



Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yes, please let us see the pedigree! I found that showline people will scare the buyers of working line pups with horror stories re temperament based on the pedigrees.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not see where the first breeder is in the wrong at all. You agreed to transfer the deposit. Now you want to go with another breeder. What is the purpose of a deposit -- remember a contract has to benefit both parties. 

You are agreeing to buy a puppy from them, they are agreeing to hold a puppy for you. You have money, they have the puppy. If they cannot provide the puppy, they should return your money. If you do not purchase the puppy they keep your money. You agreed to it. You paid it. when she asked you agree to the transfer. 

I do not understand how all the people crawl out of the woodwork with negative feedback AFTER you put a deposit down -- this seems to happen all the time, not just with you. 

Anyway. She has 50 puppies per year. That could be five or six litters per year. It sounds like a lot, but it really is not. We do not know what her set up is like, what kind of help she has. If the bitch was not on site, it may be with her co-owner, which would be an excellent way for bitches to have a good life, when they are not having pups. We do not know this to be the case, but 50 puppies is really not that many. 

However, when you are producing 50 puppies/year, there are some things to consider. First off, the person will have more experience with whelping and raising litter, the business end of things, may have a better knowledge pool of what works, what does not work, better experience to help customers down the line. They may have a much lower rate of puppies with problems due to breeding carefully, and health testing. And evenso, you might be able to find three or four people who are unhappy because there dog DOES have a problem. Figure three years, 150 puppies sold, if 6 of them have some type of issue, is that more than someone who has 1 litter per year, 24 puppies in three years and had 2 puppies with issues? Those numbers are just out of a hat, we do not know either breeder. 

I would hope you would have more to go on than these to turn them in, swear out a grievance to the kennel club.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly Selzer by your math with those numbers there are lots of opportunities for dissatisfied customers --- 50 per year in fact as each pup represents a new person . That can mean 50 terrific experiences or 50 headaches that make the whole endeavour unbearable , mellish with an h . 
Forms don't impress me . I am the least obedient in filling them in ! and never ask any potential owner to fill in a form. The person could be form savy and lie through their teeth. Better to get a feel , watch and listen for sub text -- ask questions , get involved in real life , spontaneous , inter action.
The persons husband is a judge , did you mention this as being a bad thing? You would hope to mod with a g , that they know something, have a stake in being respected in the breed community. Just with that knowledge I would have stayed with breeder number one.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Very good points made by the breeders. Yeah only thing I want to see now is the PED. 

As i have expressed before, Im really starting to hate the term "reputable breeder". 

Nowadays buyers want to tell breeders how to breed along with what they are doing right & wrong.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Sorry was on my phone so didn't know how to search and attach links at the same time. This is the litter that is next: ** Please PM OP for information on pedigree**


_I also want to clear up that I am not telling the breeder what she should be doing, this is also new to me, and I guess partly my fault too, but I was hoping she would have been a bit more honest about the dogs temperament and health. _


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not a breeder, but a buyer, and I agree with what has been posted. You agreed to the terms, then you changed your mind. If the deposit was non-refundable, that is what it means.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

GSD07 said:


> Yes, please let us see the pedigree! I found that showline people will scare the buyers of working line pups with horror stories re temperament based on the pedigrees.


:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

You won't believe the horror stories I hear from confused buyers...and told to them by well known major Euro showline people!!!!

Anyway - I did not realize when I posted that the buyer HAD agreed to take a pup from another upcoming litter...missed that...so I concur, the breeder is not in the wrong for keeping the deposit....not saying I agree with doing that - but it is normal practice.

Lee


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## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

HI GSD 84 


Are the second breeders showline or working line breeders and are they located in the Barrie area


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

BUBBAGSD said:


> HI GSD 84
> 
> 
> Are the second breeders showline or working line breeders and are they located in the Barrie area


No they are north of Barrie and they are showlines but I believe the majority of their dogs are also service dogs and good neighbour dogs (?)


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

To the OP, I know it is frustrating and I certainly understand your side as well. $200 is a decent amount of money that no one wants to lose. In the grand scheme of things, I say let it go as you seem really happy about the 2nd breeder and what they have.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

**removed by Admin** 
the above links represent the information given for the next litter . Repeat breeding.

I assume that the OP is saying that THIS is the litter which was offered from which to pick a pup since their were no pups born to the dam on which the deposit was placed. 

Litter after that ** removed by Admin** 

deducing that the kennel then is **removed by Admin** 

They are not a class of animals (american show lines) that are of interest to me or my needs (working german /ddr / czech ). However in the field which they have chosen they are doing well . 

Why do you continue to say "I was hoping she was a bit more honest about the temperament and health" . Did she see you coming and put on her "lying mask". To what purpose . 

This kennel has a goal plan. They use successive generations , a rarity . They have experience, they have standing within the CKC/AKC show scene , they have a large list of "customers".


Who are these people giving you guidance. Wouldn't it be something if the "new breeder used the same lines " .

Sometimes, I am telling you, for all the effort there is just no winning.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I know that **removed by Admin** owns the sire and is the breeder of him, and he was probably on site. He is not usually shown to anyone. He is gorgeous to look at, just don't try to touch him. The owner of the kennel is a CKC judge, and shows almost everything, this dog has not been shown. His litter mate was finished and sold to 2 of my friends as a stud and show dog, he has not been able to sire a litter nor be shown because of constant health concerns. Again a gorgeous looking dog who was finished his CH as a very young dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder when judges are also breeding dogs, they do not judge dogs they have bred, but they know a lot of the other judges, and well, it just seems like Judge A shows a dog in this class under Judge B, Judge B shows a dog next week under Judge A. I don't know, I think that if I am looking for a showline dog -- American lines, a Judge having champions would not impress me as much as someone who is not a judge breeding champions. 

I wonder if it would be better to use retired breeders to judge conformation. Or, do breeders never retire?


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> I wonder when judges are also breeding dogs, they do not judge dogs they have bred, but they know a lot of the other judges, and well, it just seems like Judge A shows a dog in this class under Judge B, Judge B shows a dog next week under Judge A. I don't know, I think that if I am looking for a showline dog -- American lines, a Judge having champions would not impress me as much as someone who is not a judge breeding champions.
> 
> I wonder if it would be better to use retired breeders to judge conformation. Or, do breeders never retire?


As Trudy said, the fact that he is a judge does not impress me much for the exact reasons you have stated above.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

selzer said:


> I wonder when judges are also breeding dogs, they do not judge dogs they have bred, but they know a lot of the other judges, and well, it just seems like Judge A shows a dog in this class under Judge B, Judge B shows a dog next week under Judge A. I don't know, I think that if I am looking for a showline dog -- American lines, a Judge having champions would not impress me as much as someone who is not a judge breeding champions.
> 
> I wonder if it would be better to use retired breeders to judge conformation. Or, do breeders never retire?


 
Welcome to the real world! Want to see this in REAL action??? Go to horse shows where trainers are judges...they buy and sell clients horses as well as show them....I used to be extremely happy to get a ribbon at all even at all breed shows when we had judges who fell into this...I like showing my stock horses under Arab or SB people coz they could just judge without trying to cover all the bases for favors... I don't think it is AS bad in the conformation ring - but it probably happens.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Temperament , character , priority .

So care to look at breeder number two's offerings?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

**removed by Admin** is a big name in ASL Shepherds...correct?
*What is the pedigree of the 2nd (now 1st place) breeder??*
I was just wondering if they are "rival" or competition breeders?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

**removed by Admin** is NOT a big name except for the number of pups put out. they probably have 8-10 litters per year, they keep the most promising and show them, and then sell them. The other kennel she is going to is also ASL, but they do stuff with their dogs, and use outside studs, and temperment and health is number 1 for them. I won't share the pedigree as I am not involved and only know via chats, although I personally have met and know many in the pedigree and my daughter owns a pup from the same sire and she is super tempered, and has played with Gemma. I am NOT the breeder, nor have anything to do with the breeder except to say hi in passing at shows and talk to others, in case no one knows I lived in Barrie for over 20 years, moving away a yr ago so do know most involved although not GSD84.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I see the name often in the GSD Reviews....so I can only comment on seeing the name often....also have seen pics & pedigrees posted on the PDB.
I don't have ASL's, so I have no idea what is what or who is who.....


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Spoke to the breeder today. She will talk to her husband and get back to us.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In order to be a conformation judge (ckc) you have to have been mentored , bred a minimum of 4 litters , had 10 years breeding experience and a minimum of 15 years activity within the activity (I guess showing - dog activity relevant). Gleason, Mesdag , Monk, Vurma , come to mind. It would happen that animals would be presented that are somehow involved with their kennels .

The OP visited one time . Now it is up to the OP to visit again . Judge for yourself.
Ask -- SHOW me the sire , SHOW me the female . Keep asking until you feel all your questions have been met. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

trudy said:


> **removed by Admin** is NOT a big name except for the number of pups put out. they probably have 8-10 litters per year, they keep the most promising and show them, and then sell them. The other kennel she is going to is also ASL, but they do stuff with their dogs, and use outside studs, and temperment and health is number 1 for them. I won't share the pedigree as I am not involved and only know via chats, although I personally have met and know many in the pedigree and my daughter owns a pup from the same sire and she is super tempered, and has played with Gemma. I am NOT the breeder, nor have anything to do with the breeder except to say hi in passing at shows and talk to others, in case no one knows I lived in Barrie for over 20 years, moving away a yr ago so do know most involved although not GSD84.


Trudy, are you still in Ontario?

For some reason I thought you lived in the states. I would love to meet up at a trial or show one day!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have removed the name of the kennel in question since this has essentially turned into an attack on their breeding program and gone way off topic. If people need to know more they can contact the OP.

If the kennel name is mentioned again that person will receive a warning that could eventually end up as a suspension.

Thank you,

Admin

*********


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I haven't read the thread-but if the breeder keeps the most promising of their dogs and then shows them aren't they doing something with their dogs-and isn't that what a good breeder should do keep the most promising of their dogs or at least some of them


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Sorry admin for using the kennel name, elisabeth 00117 I live in Ridgetown which is close to Chatham. I would love to meet but lately seem to be mostly stuck here at home...cars and juggling have been a bit of an issue..sigh oh to be rich....


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

>>>> if your dealing with a reputable breeder
i doubt the new litter has a bad temperment.
did you go and see the litter and spend sometime
with the litter???? <<<<

before i got the dog i have now i placed a deposit
on a pup. the pregnancy never happened. i was
told before giving the deposit the deposit was non-refundable. the next breeding never happened. the breeder returned my money
with no hassle. i can understand how a breeder can make a mistake
about a breeding. i don't know this for a fact but i think the tranferring
of a deposit is common practice. the breeder has to
protect themselves in some manner. just think about
how many people would place a deposit for a pup then
pull out once it's time to go.



GSD84 said:


> >>>>>After doing some research and talking to some very helpful ppl, we were told this new litter has an extremely bad temperment and we were advised to not buy from them.<<<<


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I once sold a pup to a lady who I found out 2 years later, had placed deposits on 3 litters at the same time...she was planning on deciding which litter she wanted a pup from after they were all born...I do not think she got the other two back which she was perturbed at as she expected to do so! The only time I would keep a deposit is if I had already decided what pups were going where, and a buyer backed out at the last minute, just before picking up the pup, thus leaving me with a pup to raise further and find the right home for that particular pup. Otherwise, I have returned deposits (uncashed checks!) when I did not have a litter with the sex/color combo a buyer was set on - ie had a buyer who was dead set on a black Xito pup and had all sables. 

Lee


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

trudy said:


> Sorry admin for using the kennel name, elisabeth 00117 I live in Ridgetown which is close to Chatham. I would love to meet but lately seem to be mostly stuck here at home...cars and juggling have been a bit of an issue..sigh oh to be rich....


I know exactly where that is - I am from Essex!

I moved up to Kitchener-Waterloo for school a few years ago.

Are you guys going to Puppy Pawlooza in London on Aug. 20th? I am headed there with a friend and all of our dogs (should be quite fun!). You should definitely try to come out!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I will definitely try to come to Puppy Pawlooza, never heard of it but sounds fun, Ty and I will try to come, it definitely sounds great!!!! Sooo keep your eyes out for the best looking GS ever and it will be us!!!!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the linch pin of the discussion is that the OP willingly agreed (and signed a contract) to receive a pup from the following litter . She wanted a pup. It was their responsibility to ask questions, make visits, even ask for a reasonable period of time to discuss at home.
Maybe anyone placing a deposit on an unborn or too young to evaluate litter should ask , what will happen if , you, breeder, cannot fulfill providing an animal suitable for my needs . Then depending on the answer you continue, or you look elsewhere.

no matter who or what this breeder is I can't find fault with their dealing --- 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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