# Selective Aggression and a Distraught Owner



## RiversOwner (Dec 23, 2015)

I'm at my wit's end. I have a 2 year old female German Shepherd who I've had since she was 6 months old. Immediately after I got her I put her in obedience classes and she passed all of them with flying colors( she's an AKC Good Citizen...lol). She's been around all and I mean all kinds of kinds of dogs off leash and on leash. From a 2 lb chihuahua to the 160lb Irish Wolfhound all of her life. She's even lived with dogs, specially Poms, a mutt, a Lab, and Aussies prior to us moving to San Francisco.

Over the last few months I've tried everything, Obedience classes, I hate to say it but shock collars and prong collars because she's developed extreme Selective Aggression. I'd like to think I'm fluent I'm dog, I was a Pre-Vet Major for a time and worked at local shelters, I used to be a dog walker for a few years and I've owned dogs my entire life. I've had Behaviorists come out with me and they can't figure out what is setting her off.

River has a tendency to love all dogs until she doesn't. Just two days ago she met a chiweenine mix. Loved it, she let it jump one, let me give her treats and let the dog sit with her and drink from the same water bowl at our massive off leash dog park. The very next day she saw Toby and Cooper. Toby and Cooper are two beagles she's met before and she was completely fine with them until the last time she saw them where Cooper barked at her incessantly, She told Cooper off ( as in yelled back). Fine, a quick correction and I made her walk on leash with both of them for 2 hours. 
The next time she saw Toby, the other part of the duo, she had her ears back, head low, tail wagging and went up to him to say hello. I was close enough so I could mediate this interaction, and it took 3 seconds (Literally 3 seconds) for her to let him sniff her butt and she turned around and grabbed him. I grabbed her but not before she punctured Toby. ( He's fine now) I immediately called the cavalry. Vets, Behaviorists, Trainers, the lot. What I got back was : "she doesn't have a history of this, there could have been a micro expression you missed, she's fine. Just watch her, it shouldn't happen again".

Another instance:

Off leash Park and she's trailing behind me, letting any and all dogs greet her and we're having a good day. A Berner comes to her, who she's met before and they've never had a bad instance, and she goes after him. I grab her, tell that it's not okay and we go home. Called everyone again and got the same response. I tried taking her to new trainers and no one would help me. " She's an AKC Good Citizen, she's fine". Mentally, I'm screaming " no she's not" and this point I'm looking into getting shock collars.


Third Offense:

We're my Friend's house. She boards dogs so River is accustomed to seeing 12 dogs our more in this place. She meets 4 new little dogs and 3 new big dogs and everyone is eating out of the same bowl and playing. One dog comes up to her who she didn't meet in all the commotion ( there aren't and toys, food or treats around at this point. I recognized that they hadn't met and moved them to the living room, calmly and smoothly like I did with all the other dogs she met that day) She loses it, goes after the small poodle mix and I grab her and take her home. ( Dog is fine, nothing happened except some yelling on both sides).
Again, call everyone and I'm still getting the same response.

Fourth Offense:

I'm helping dog walker that both River and I know, unload her dogs at an off leash park. River has met her entire pack is accustomed to dog unloads. ( I used to be a dog walker and I make her stand near unloads at park so its a normal thing for her) She grabs a little dog I unload, that she's met before, a weenie. I grab both dogs, correct her immediately and take her home. Weenie is fine and as I'm walking away he runs up to us and gives me a kiss on the leg before running back.


The only thing I haven't tried is board and train. I can't afford $3,500-$5,200 for a 2-3 week board and train so unless anyone has any other ideas, I'll be rehoming River. I don't think I'm the right owner for her and despite what the vets, behaviorists, and trainers are telling me, this is not okay.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Is she spayed? Have you done a blood panel on her since this all began? Full vet check up? 

It seems she's going after mostly small dogs.. could it be prey behavior? 

Why jump immediately to rehoming? Why not simply keep her away from other dogs or have her wear a basket muzzle? I've owned fighting-bred pit bulls - dogs that no amount of training would ever "cure" their dog aggression, managing it is absolutely possible. Is there anything else going on that would make you be willing to give up a dog to that you've owned and bonded with for 18 months?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

This kind of thing has to be handled by a trainer experienced with this kind of thing. Someone like me. The other thing is someone like me is likely to want board and train to evaluate and work on the dog. I can almost guarantee that.

The other thing is this. You know this dog has issues with other dogs. Why do you continue to put other dogs at risk and allow your dog to rehearse that behavior over and over again? Your corrections are either not happening poorly timed and understood or not enough to actually be punishing to prevent reoccurrenc of the behavior. All that aside...stop it. Stop putting other dogs at risk when you know you have a problem you can't handle.


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## labX (Dec 7, 2016)

I would ask for a full blood check.sometime animals do change.
We had to rehome a dog after 5 yrs. He was kids aggressive and as our kids grew playdates and neighbours kids coming became a bad experience for us.
Also he bit people at daycare and kennel.

So he is rehomed. As he cannot be boarded and is okay with just my kids and family .We keep him a month or 2 a year when the older couple who have him travel. Again he is only new people aggressive . He is never exposed to kids in his new house. 

He is happier and alot of fun with those trigger off. We spend alot of money and a year trying to fix him . We do miss him because he loved the family and we get our fix every few months .

Just saying.i will try to understand his triggers and work or avoid them. 


Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

The first time my dog would go after someone else's dog would be the last time I would trust and allow it to be with anyone else's dog. If I had no choice but to have it with someone else's dog it would have a muzzle on. I hope you paid the vet bill for Toby. It sounds like you got River her CGC as a puppy. It is recommended if you get it as a puppy to redo it as an adult. There can be a big difference in dogs from when they are a puppy to when they are adults. 


Take her to a vet and have a full check up done. Try to find a trainer, one with GSD experience, not just an 'I'm a dog trainer' person. Contact an IPO club near you and ask for recommendations. Stop taking her out with other dogs. If you see another dog turn around and go the other way. Warn people to keep their dogs away from her. Dog Parks should now be off limit for her unless you want to start paying some very expensive vet bills for other people. It doesn't matter if she generally 'loves' other dogs, she's proved herself to not be trusted. She doesn't need to be rehomed unless you're not willing to work with her and/or you can't accept her not being loose with other dogs. Many many dogs live quite happily without having to run loose with other dogs. 


Best of luck and keep us updated on how you two are doing.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Why would you even consider rehoming????? You have a female GSD who is maturing and not one of the kids anymore.....

First off - dog parks and play groups are NOT NOT NOT the ideal or even an acceptable choice for any GSD.....They are strong pack animals and those dogs are NOT their pack. They are not huskies who are bred to be part of a team that can change, they are not Goldens....they are dogs who are strong and are more genetically disposed to be part of a small family group. There is nothing WRONG with your dog except that you want to set her up to fail as you seem to think she should behave like a Golden or a Beagle.


Find other activities to do with her, scentwork, agility etc.....she does not need to be constantly approached and assulted by large numbers of strange and semi strange dogs....

Most responsible breeders will tell you up front - in fact, I have it in my contract -* NO DOG PARKS!!!!* NOT appropriate play for the typical GSD



Lee


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You can change your lifestyle with this dog for free and you don't have to rehome her. Simply stop putting her in groups off ofleash dogs. Some dogs just can't handle it. One of the first questions that always comes to my mind is, is it really that important, or how important is it, to be constantly in a big group of other dogs. 

For me, nowhere near as important as the wellbeing of mine and the other dogs in those groups. Basically no GSD I have ever owned was the type of dog who could just go safely mingle day in and day out in situations like you described.  I used to take my girl to places like that when she was a youngster and it was a huge mistake. She was the one getting beat up. She would likely have turned into the abuser if I had kept bringing her into maturity, we changed our lifestyle. 

There is one dog friendly park I go to now but it is leashed only and my dogs are neutral to other leashed dogs and they don't greet. My old male who is dead now was wonderful with any dog he knew was a dog but I also saw that predatory gleam sometimes aimed at the small ones. He absolutely would have eventually killed someone's little fluffy if I had made it possible for him to do so. I didn't.

My dogs have absolutely no casual contact with just random dogs.

And just to add...ethically you have no choice but to immediately stop allowing this dog to have contact with other dogs since she is a hazard to them. I don't thini rehoming is necessary either UNLESS you are unwilling to take steps to change your lifestyle with her immediately or like Bailif said find someone who can help you fix. But you do have a responsibility to protect other people's dogs from your dog by not allowing your dog to have access


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Why would you take her to the home of a dog sitter with little dogs? Just the other day one of my relatives' dogs was badly injured in that exact situation by a GSD mix and had to have a very serious surgery. I'm sick over that, and to come in and read that someone deliberately endangered a small dog, whether you realize it or not, is incomprehensible. The family dog will never be Ok. You are lucky that little dog wasn't maimed or killed. Your friend isn't qualified to be a dog sitter if she allowed that to happen either.

Now that your dog has an aggression history, no reputable rescue would take her. A shelter will eithanize her. So either you keep her and learn how to manage her behavior or euthanize her yourself. A DA dog can be managed. She can't be around other dogs without a muzzle, and even then, muzzles can fail. 

You make a big leap between training and board and train. Find a private trainer who specializes in DA to work with you and evaluate your dog. They may recommend boarding but at least you will know. I had an HA rescue who was unpredictable. He went after some people sometimes. I didn't know for sure when. I knew why, it was if he felt they were invading his space, so he wasn't allowed within leash distance of strangers to him. You can manage him if you are willing to learn how. If your dog was sick you would pay for vet care. Think of training as another type of care.

Get a full blood panel and ask them to check thyroid, which they should. My HA dog needed thyroid pills. It didn't change his HA, by then it was permanent but he felt better.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would be rethinking the credentials of some of these behaviorists you are dealing with. I see a number of triggers.

When you bring your dog around other peoples' dogs, you have a responsibility not only to control your dog, but to control other dog's behaviors toward yours.

I really am not sure why somebody would allow their dog to bark in another dog's face or why you allowed that behavior to occur unmitigated. 

And treats? Food? Who brings treats or food into a pack of dogs and does NOT expect a dog fight? 

What female dog permits another dog to put its nose in its butt and does not fend it off? It is very common behavior. 

I agree with the poster above who stated it is most likely prey drive when you unloaded the little dog.

How can these behaviorists miss so much?

But regarding you rehoming your dog, I think it is the right thing to do. Your life is dogcentric and a dog that is affable with other dogs might be more suitable. 

I am not saying German Shepherds can't be dog friendly, I like to take my dogs to dog functions too, but everything has its limitations. Even with board and train, I would not trust this dog long term to not cause harm to another dog. I think you would be sacrificing too much of what you do and the lifestyle you enjoy if you were to keep this dog.

I am not insinuating that you are a failure or that your dog is not a good dog. I am just saying your wants and needs are not compatible with hers. Think about it. Do you want to live a lifestyle that no longer involves your friends, dog walking, parks or dog parks? You need to fair to both of you. 

Your only other option is to leave her at home all the time while you go and do the things you love and enjoy, but without a dog of your own to share it with. Doesn't sound like much fun and kind of defeats the purpose of having a dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> A DA dog can be managed. She can't be around other dogs without a muzzle, and even then, muzzles can fail.


I had a dog aggressive dog. He was a PITA, he always had to sit home, never got to have any fun, and was all work and no play. 

This dog might be good for somebody who does not have another dog or that does not enjoy dog friendly activities.


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## Papa_de_Donna (Sep 23, 2016)

Being a noob with GSDs I can't really ad anything to what's been said, but I agree with it based on my experience with my girl. You and I are in similar situations-- I have a 3 yo 85 lb female with aggression issues toward most dogs, especially unknown dogs, and there can be situations where she seems fine one second, but then explodes with very little warning. She was not spayed until I adopted her at almost 3 yo. Sounds similar to your situation. I adopted her/she was rehomed to me knowing about the aggression issues and knowing that she was about to go to the shelter where she would likely be deemed unadoptable and get euthanized. So I made a commitment to save her. When I wanted to adopt, I had all sorts of visions of my dog playing happily with my family's dogs, the neighbors' dogs, romping on the beach near my house that is essentially a big dog park. I've mostly just given up that fantasy, but what I do have is the sweetest companion who's at my side constantly, is a great exercise buddy, loves all humans including the 5 yr old neighbor boy, is admired by everybody she meets for her beauty and calm demeanor around people. So yeah, you're looking at a lifestyle change, but are you really giving up that much, and what might you gain in the process? Who cares about random other dogs in anonymous situations? I certainly don't anymore, and like others recommend I simply avoid them and don't put my girl in those situations. Unfortunately there are idiots out there who don't/can't control their dogs and bad situations happen, but that's not your girl's fault. Sounds like she has decided she just loves you and doesn't care for dogs, which I've come to find is not an uncommon GSD trait. I actually think it might be a good one.

The one thing I will ad that has been recommended to me is pack walks where the dogs aren't 'meeting' or confronting each other, but instead just walking ahead in parallel. It may establish that other dogs are no big deal, or it may lead to more bad situations if you're not careful. I haven't actually tried it yet with my girl, and I'm a little ambivalent about it since she seems to be doing fine with the dogs around her that matter to me.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, I never had any trouble with my DA GSD. She walked with a muzzle and prong, until she learned to ignore other dogs. She didn't interact with other dogs. She didn't have to stay home all the time. I just needed to manage her, when I took her out. It wasn't that hard and wasn't rocket science. She was an awesome dog in every other way.

I'm not sure why you posted, if you have already decided to rehome her. If you don't love her enough to accept her for who she is, what makes you think someone else will? If you do opt to rehome her, please don't ever get another GSD. If you want a dog who is a social butterfly, get a beagle.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I had a dog aggressive dog. He was a PITA, he always had to sit home, never got to have any fun, and was all work and no play.
> 
> This dog might be good for somebody who does not have another dog or that does not enjoy dog friendly activities.


I thought she said that she used to live with other dogs but doesn't now. The only way she is going to be able to rehome the dog is privately, unless she finds a rescue willing to deal with it. I wouldn't drop her off at a shelter, because the dog will just be recycled and given to someone else who can't handle it. Or if she is honest, might be euth'd. I agree, there are people whose dogs stay home and who don't have other dogs who can manage this dog. But she should not be around other dogs that will set her off.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I thought she said that she used to live with other dogs but doesn't now. The only way she is going to be able to rehome the dog is privately, unless she finds a rescue willing to deal with it. I wouldn't drop her off at a shelter, because the dog will just be recycled and given to someone else who can't handle it. Or if she is honest, might be euth'd. I agree, there are people whose dogs stay home and who don't have other dogs who can manage this dog. But she should not be around other dogs that will set her off.


I think the tipping point in rehoming this dog is OP's lifestyle, which is very dog oriented. If she were less involved with dog activities, this dog might not be such a big issue. A lot of the indiscretions did have valid triggers.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the tipping point in rehoming this dog is OP's lifestyle, which is very dog oriented. If she were less involved with dog activities, this dog might not be such a big issue. A lot of the indiscretions did have valid triggers.


Then I revise what I said earlier about rehoming and euthanizing. She should find another home for the dog. Just reading her post, she doesn't understand why it happened. Most of us would be able to figure that out about our own dogs. So, not a criticism, but she has a dog that isn't right for her. I don't take back what I said in the first paragraph about the day care. Until someone has had a dog close to them injured, they don't understand the horror that family and their children will live with for the rest of their dog's life. It was traumatizing for everyone.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Let go of the SF dog culture - she's telling you that she's not a hang out at Crissy Field social butterfly. She passed the CGC test because there's no uncontrolled greetings or off leash interactions.

The more she practices this behavior, the more likely it is to be her default. Stop testing her and set her up for success. Find friends with neutral dogs (there's a huge GSD walking community in the South Bay that does outings / pack walks several days a week), walk together, build her confidence back up and accept that unless you can commit to training - this will be her life, it's not an awful one (for her).

Even having 1 friendly and 1 neutral dog, we don't encounter as many dogs or situations that River has been in.

Personally, I'd make an attempt to cater to her needs better before rehoming her (with the number of homeless GSD in this state, people aren't lining up to adopt dog aggressive ones). Lifestyle changes, not phone calls to vets and behaviorist. Get your relationship back on track while in the meantime researching and seeking an appropriate trainer. We are fortunate to have many here in the Bay Area.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Rehome your dog. I have a dog aggressive/fear aggressive female. She is 6. She was raised with other dogs. She still does not like other dogs. I had a dog in my house over Christmas. We did the crate and rotate game. 
You want to fix her. You think there is something broken. Female gsd's are known for dog aggression. It's been discussed repeatedly on this forum. As a breed they are not social butterflies and the females specifically respond poorly to pushy in your face interactions. And they can hold a grudge with the best. 
She needs a person who respects who she is and will take appropriate steps to protect her from herself.
Best of luck.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

RiversOwner said:


> I'm at my wit's end. I have a 2 year old female German Shepherd who I've had since she was 6 months old. Immediately after I got her I put her in obedience classes and she passed all of them with flying colors( she's an AKC Good Citizen...lol). She's been around all and I mean all kinds of kinds of dogs off leash and on leash. From a 2 lb chihuahua to the 160lb Irish Wolfhound all of her life. She's even lived with dogs, specially Poms, a mutt, a Lab, and Aussies prior to us moving to San Francisco.
> 
> Over the last few months I've tried everything, Obedience classes, I hate to say it but shock collars and prong collars because she's developed extreme Selective Aggression. I'd like to think I'm fluent I'm dog, I was a Pre-Vet Major for a time and worked at local shelters, I used to be a dog walker for a few years and I've owned dogs my entire life. I've had Behaviorists come out with me and they can't figure out what is setting her off.
> 
> ...


Why does this dog need to be around other dogs?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think you are getting the message.  You can't change your dog, but you can change your expectations, the training you put into her, and how you handle and manage her. 

My first dog was a social butterfly. Perfect dog park material. Got along perfectly with all manners of dogs, other aggressive dogs play-bowed and defered to him (and he was a cute spaniel mix, LOL!). He never gave me an once of concern. 

My second dog was completely opposite. A bully and dog aggressive, a shelter rescue who never got any training. She was a crazy, out-of-control dog who didn't even know the concept of what obedience was. Never occurred to me to re-home her. I adjusted, and I trained her, and managed her. 

Always on leash in public. Off-leash in more isolated areas where there were no other dogs. I joined a dog training club and learned how to REALLY train a dog to listen. It was a lot of work, daily work. Lots of awareness of my environment to avoid other dogs, but she was such a fun, energetic, goofy dog, I adored her. I learned what motivated her, and went on to earn obedience and tracking titles. I lost her to cancer a couple of years ago, and I miss her everyday. 

Not all dogs are social butterflies. Not fair to expect them to fit into a mold of our own making.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It would help if the OP came back to see the replies.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Uh wow ... I don't think I have given so many "Likes Ever!!" It's the wrong dog, wrong lifestyle and way, way, way to many "opportunities" given to the dog to make "poor choices." 

When I first discovered I had a "Dog with Dog issues" (2000) I knew I had a problem??? And I made it my "responsibility" to not let "my" problem become someone else's problem. That was my "American Band Dawg" the only dog I ever had a "Pro" evaluate. Like you my plans with him were "Dogs Parks" and lots of fun and stuff with other dogs??? I did not have a clue what I was dealing with but I saw, something in him I did not understand?? Hence the Eval, he was pronounced as a "Dominant Male" dog ie your dog is just a "Butt Hole!" 

Fine no problem ... no "Dog Parks" no dog on the street meet and greets ... we will learn to "ignore other dogs." Worked out fine, been doing that ever since. 

Changing ones "plans and expectations" to fit a given dog ... is nothing new ... lots of us do it. But if that does not work for you, then your options get reduced "with this dog." As it stands now with this mcuh history of the dog making poor choices ... yes $3500 to $4500 and a "Bailiff" level pro ... if you persist in fitting this square peg into a round hole. 

If you do chose to rehome then "you'll need to find a "GSD Rescue" for her. She carries to much "baggage" for a local animal shelter. They have an overabundance of dogs without "these" issues, they don't have the time or skill to deal with this. If you chose to change what you do with this dog ... then "private sessions" and train to ignore would become a viable less expensive option. 

I'm pretty sure it would take a "Pack of Stable" dogs and "Proper Management/training" to get her thru this and yeah that's cost some bucks?? So if you plan to change nothing in how you live with this dog "Board and Train" is your best option. Your not gonna get a "Pack of Stable Dogs" in "private sessions."

You don't "have" to give up on her but you do have to start making some better choices for her.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi RiversOwner, How does your girl behave on leash around other leashed dogs? 

I'm just a pet owner. Other posters, far more experienced than I am, have already responded. But it seems like your girl is or may be fairly well-behaved when on leash around other dogs. If so, I don't think your problem will be that hard to manage if you are willing to make changes. If I were in your circumstances, dog parks and off-leash encounters would no longer be an option for this dog. 

Working on this issue with a GSD-experienced trainer might be great, and it would help you learn to read your dog better, and have greater control in unforeseen circumstances (i.e. the little chihuahua next door bolts out of the fence and nips at your dogs heels while on a walk). But I personally would never trust her in off-leash social situations around other dogs. 

I've only had one GSD that I would have considered leash-reactive/aggressive, and it was when I was far less experienced. I worked with a trainer and eventually I could take him most places and most times he would not react. I would never have taken him to a dog-park, and I avoided very crowded places where I would have to pass dogs in tight spaces.

NONE of my other GSDs have been leash-aggressive to other dogs, but at the same time, I have never had a GSD that would enjoy a dog-park. My current dogs are great in public. I can and do take them anywhere, and I think they make me look fairly good. I trust them around other leashed dogs, but we do not go to dog-parks or to random doggie play dates. GSDs are a powerful working breed. If there is a fight, even if the GSD is not the aggressor, it will probably be blamed.

I am sure there are exceptions. Some GSD-owners probably have dogs that enjoy dog parks. Mine just aren't the social butterfly types (neither am I, for that matter). I expect my GSDs to pass other leashed dogs in a neutral fashion. I will allow them to sniff other leashed dogs nose-to-nose on occasion. I don't allow butt sniffing.

All of this is a long way of saying, if you keep your dog leashed and around other leashed dogs, maybe your problem is manageable. Easy for me to say, since I don't like dog parks. I exercise my dogs with flirt poles, ball chasing, tug, running in our fenced yard, hikes in the woods, and neighborhood walks. There are breeds more appropriate for dog parks if that is something that is very important to you. 

If this is a major issue for you, then re-home her while she is young. It personally wouldn't be that big of a deal to me, especially if she was not aggressive on leash. Maybe a rescue would take her?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Actually Chip, we're spoiled here -- there is a well known trainer in the area that provides her "pack of stable dogs" in her private sessions as needed. Many on the forum have used her.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

German Shepherds are not known to be "doggy" type dogs, meaning they usually prefer the company of their small group of people rather than other dogs like a beagle or hound would. It seems to be a common misconception among pet owners that GSDs need another dog to play with or keep them company, they don't, they need you, we domesticated them to be that way to do the kind of work they are bred to do. The little dogs that are barking in her face is inappropriate, they may be doing it aggressively, either way you need to keep her away from them until she can learn to ignore them. 
You don't need to rehome your dog, you just need to do some strict training and change your expectations for her. She won't be able to play with strange dogs anymore. This is a common problem you see a lot on here with GSDs, people seem to think the only difference between the breeds is their looks. You caught the problem fairly early so I think there's still hope you can retrain her, if you are willing to do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What everyone else said. 

I think we have an ideal in our head when it comes to dogs. Whether we've had previous dogs or we have seen others with their dogs behaving a certain way in various situations, and we kind of solidify that as being what a dog should be. We ignore what the dog's breed was created for, and try to fit a dog into this dog-mold we have in our mind, instead of studying and learning the dog we have and creating an environment for the dog in which it will thrive.

This isn't a dog-park-dog.
This isn't a doggy day care dog.

This dog can be a supreme obedience dog, and excel in any number of dog-performance events. 

This dog can be your absolute best friend, jogging buddy, companion, etc. 

Managing this dog won't be difficult. You know the boundaries, and it is up to you to keep them. If someone wants to come to your home with a dog, you need to crate/kennel yours. Or tell the person that your dog is not good with other dogs, so please do not bring your dog. 

Your dog was put in situations that became increasingly more uncomfortable for the dog. Finally the dog attacked another dog, and you corrected the dog and took it home. You might say you rewarded the dog, because the dog got what it wanted and needed -- out of the situation. And yes, you should have done that. The first time. Maybe the second time. The third and fourth incidents should have never happened. 

What I would have done would have been to immediately sign the dog up for more obedience classes. Those would be the only dogs my dog would see, completely on-lead. And, you have to make sure there is enough space between your dogs and other dogs, and keep an eye on yours and an eye on the others at all times. Putting the dog in with multiple dogs it doesn't know when it has had bloody altercations already is asking to be sued. It is completely possible, that once the dog is around fewer dogs and all the nonsense of introducing multiple unknown dogs to this dog at a time is over with, your dog may not be a problem even if a dog slips its collar and runs up to your dog. Still, if that happens, block your dog and be helpful in keeping yours under control while the other is corralled. It isn't hard. 

You can rehome the dog. Not the end of the world. But it is kind of like rehoming a dog because his ears did not stand up, or because he barks too much. Disappointing. I think usually, we expect people who obtain a live critter to understand that it has a personality, and it is our job to form a life for ourselves and the critter that suits both the human or humans and the dog or dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Fodder said:


> Actually Chip, we're spoiled here -- there is a well known trainer in the area that provides her "pack of stable dogs" in her private sessions as needed. Many on the forum have used her.


LOL ... seriously??? I did not know anyone did "traveling packs as it were??" It sounds "expensive??" 

Aww well live and learn as it were.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have dog aggressive dogs... so here are my thoughts and you may not like them.

1. You are really going to rehome your dog because she doesn't like other dogs? She doesn't need to like other dogs. She need to learn to respect their right to breathe and that's it. They stay in their space and she stays in there.

2. e-collar for aggression??? In those instructions, they tell you to NOT use it for aggression for a reason. Because you will make it worse. When the stim hits and they are looking at hte other dog, they think the other dog did it to them. Game on! I have used it for dog aggression but there are rules involved in how and when and with the mixture of behavior modification methods and did it with the guidance of a good trainer.

3. Stop taking her to dog parks and to dog sitters and putting her in a bad situation. That is 100% on you. It took me YEARS to finally figure out my girl did not need, nor did she want, to play with other dogs. Once I stopped trying to force her and instead enforced her space, things were good. She lives and plays with her pack at home and she's happy.

4. At the dog sitters...everyone is eating out of the same bowl??? That is just stupid and an explosion waiting to happen. Stop putting her in these situations.

You don't need to board and train. You need to stop putting her in these situations. You need to find a good trainer for that can teach you the skills to enforce her space and to set rules of behavior for her. 

Trainers - tell us the general area of where you live and we can probably suggest a trainer for you. You need a balanced trainer that can teach you corrections and rewards. Most likely it will be a trainer that is in involved in a protection sport of some kind like IPO, PSA.


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## RiversOwner (Dec 23, 2015)

Some Clarifications:

1. I had her on leash and muzzled if we're going to a place with a bunch of unknown dogs. I actually went walking around with her trainer like this and he told me verbatim that I was an idiot for doing this because there was nothing wrong with River.

2. I was told by everyone I contacted to either get a shock collar or rehome her and that's why I considered it. I never went out and bought one and I was looking at owner's with experience with DA dogs. 

3. I did pay for Toby's vet bills

4. She was muzzled after the second incident despite what her trainer told me.

5. Her blood panel was taken after the first incident and everything is normal

6. I asked cavalry if I just didn't have a dog friendly dog and again I was called an idiot and told that every dog is dog friendly with the right training and because River is both CGC AKGC she's fine for dog parks and other dogs.


Thanks for all the information, that's why I posted because what I was getting before didn't make logical sense to me. I found a Pack Trainer in the Fresno area, so River and I will be taking road trips every weekend. I still want to put her in training just because of her incident with Toby. I appreciate the constructive criticism


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sending you a message with a link to a trainer's page. She has a ton of articles she's written. Browse through them. I don't believe in everything she thinks as far as theories but I know her personally and she knows her stuff.


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## Papa_de_Donna (Sep 23, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Sending you a message with a link to a trainer's page. She has a ton of articles she's written. Browse through them. I don't believe in everything she thinks as far as theories but I know her personally and she knows her stuff.


Jax08 could you pm me with the same info? Again I think I have the same kind of dog, would welcome more perspective on these issues.

Thanks


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## RiversOwner (Dec 23, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Sending you a message with a link to a trainer's page. She has a ton of articles she's written. Browse through them. I don't believe in everything she thinks as far as theories but I know her personally and she knows her stuff.


Thank you so much. It's nice to know that it's me, not her. I never wanted to be that Ignorant GSD Owner but now that I am, I'm going to fix it. Immediately


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> Why would you even consider rehoming????? You have a female GSD who is maturing and not one of the kids anymore.....
> 
> First off - dog parks and play groups are NOT NOT NOT the ideal or even an acceptable choice for any GSD.....They are strong pack animals and those dogs are NOT their pack. They are not huskies who are bred to be part of a team that can change, they are not Goldens....they are dogs who are strong and are more genetically disposed to be part of a small family group. There is nothing WRONG with your dog except that you want to set her up to fail as you seem to think she should behave like a Golden or a Beagle.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you. I made rookie mistakes when I was younger bringing my pup around every dog passing by, maybe it was a couple bad experiences, maybe it was the small pack instinct. But she never got over being dog aggressive. There were a few dogs in the neighborhood she would like, but 99% of dogs she would bark and lunge at. I always read these kinds of threads in an effort to gain some knowledge on how to fix this problem.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

RiversOwner said:


> : I asked cavalry if I just didn't have a dog friendly dog and again I was called an idiot and told that every dog is dog friendly with the right training and because River is both CGC AKGC she's fine for dog parks and other dogs.


I think you did the right thing looking for a new trainer. I think your trainer misguided you. I would look for someone involved in IPO/Schutzhund or other protection sports. They will have a lot of experience with GSDs and other similar breeds. I'm glad you're still working with your dog! Good luck! And keep us updated.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RiversOwner said:


> 6. I asked cavalry if I just didn't have a dog friendly dog and again I was called an idiot and told that every dog is dog friendly with the right training and because River is both CGC AKGC she's fine for dog parks and other dogs.


I am so sorry that you received such terrible input. I hope something in this thread has helped you. Literally, the biggest hurdle I faced with my girl was that, in my head, she needed to play with other dogs for her own mental well being. She doesn't. Yours doesn't. She will be perfectly happy having you as her pack and not being forced into a situation she doesn't want to be.

It could be genetics. It could be fear. It could be a lack of being able to understand the body language of the other dog. And it matters not which one it is.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

RiversOwner said:


> Some Clarifications:
> 
> 1. I had her on leash and muzzled if we're going to a place with a bunch of unknown dogs. I actually went walking around with her trainer like this and he told me verbatim that I was an idiot for doing this because there was nothing wrong with River.
> 
> ...


 WOW ... nice summary and excellent observations! Yeah you made some bad choices ... but you know, ... it seems like you had some help from "Trainers" who should have know better, that actually helped you in making poor choices?? 
Most likely "Gentle Paws" something or other and they were poorly equipped to "properly" Evaluate a dog like yours??


When "we" found "we" "have a dog with "issues???" We actually did the same thing. "I will find someone that "knows" and find out what the deal is??" Most likely my guy would have said your dog is a "Dominate Female." I don't know??? 

But my (Band Dawg) was pronounced a "Dominant Male??" That was "good enough" for me. I'd seen enough "behaviours" from him (noncontact) that I knew ... "Dog Parks" and other dogs were gonna be an issue??? Band Dawg's in San Jose in 2001 lots of them were out there! And ... I was not eager to be getting between two of them to break up fights!! So I took the easy road ... no other dogs and go for dog neutral ... worked out fine! 

But my lifestyle is not so "Dog Centric" as yours a bare minimum of information was good enough for me. For you ... not so much. So yeah you have made some mistakes but ... it sounds like you got some help in making them ... that kinda sucks! 

On the other hand ... it sounds like your better informed and have now formed a better plan ... way to go! We all make mistakes with dogs, but it's what we do going forward that determines "those who can and those who can't."

Keep us posted.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

RiversOwner said:


> Thank you so much. It's nice to know that it's me, not her. I never wanted to be that Ignorant GSD Owner but now that I am, I'm going to fix it. Immediately


If so then I retract my earlier statement. These dogs are incomparable, they deserve to be with humans who rejoice in that. 
I hope you get the help and advice you need and that you and River have a wonderful time learning together.
Like others here it took me a while to wrap my head around my current dogs need to be away from other dogs. Once I stopped waiting for her to change we were both happier. I gave up on social butterfly and we learned polite stranger instead.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Are you interested in Bay Area trainer recommendations w/ GSD exp.... or are you set on Fresno?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Fodder said:


> Are you interested in Bay Area trainer recommendations w/ GSD exp.... or are you set on Fresno?


Fresno isn't close to San Francisco, where the OP says she is. There must be closer trainers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Trainers are not all equal. 

Ok, you are paying someone to help you get your dog from here to there. You are paying someone to tell you what you are doing wrong, and how to approach things differently. You are paying them to evaluate your dog and your handling of your dog, and create a game plan to address stuff you aren't comfortable with. 

This takes courage on your part, to be open to _constructive _criticism. This does not seem to be what is happening -- constructive criticism. 

This is constructive criticism: "There! praise your dog. You need to praise him as soon as he complies with what you want. If you wait, he may be already starting a behavior you do not want before he gets rewarded." Or, "watch your dog, get his focus on you. He is staring at the other dog." 

Constructive criticism is not telling you that the dog is perfectly alright and he doesn't need a muzzle. 

I don't know what you mean by pack-training. That makes me nervous. 

Some people will flood a dog or a person when they have issues with something. I am sure that there is some success on this route, but it isn't what I would do. It would depend on the dog. 

On the other hand, sitting behind a screen in class or feeding a dog treats is something I wouldn't do for dog-reactivity. Yours doesn't seem to be dog reactive/dog aggressive in general. That would be more like every time the dog sees another dog it is barking and lunging, or the dog will attack and make a dog bleed every time it gets within the range of its leash. This doesn't seem to be happening. I seem to get the impression that your dog is normally on overload and then attacks. You tell of the dog meeting several new dogs ok, and then more dogs, and suddenly it attacks. I think the dog just gets up beyond its threshold. 

Once upon a time I was socializing a puppy. It is about an hour to the nearest pet store, so I signed her up for grooming, and after we got her bath and brush, I walked her all through the store. When I left there, there are two other pet stores near there. So I drove to the next one, and we hung out there for an hour or so. Then I drove to the third store. In each place we saw dogs and people of every size and shape and anxiety level. In the third store I was talking to a mom of a hyper kid that kept running back and fourth trying to engage my overwhelmed puppy. My fault. I was not paying attention to the pup, I was talking to the lady and had half an eye on the kid. And the mother told her several times to stop running back and forth. And finally the pup had had enough and she barked and snapped. She did not connect, but I was such an idiot. 

Socialization is NOT measured in how many people and things and places you can cram into your dog's puppyhood. But rather, having some positive experiences with someone who is providing appropriate, confident leadership. I add this to this thread for a couple of reasons, one of them being that we all make mistakes when we are learning, some of them are better some are worse, and we can call ourselves an idiot, but no one else should. We are all at different points in our experience and knowledge of dogs/training. We aren't born with the knowledge and experience. We are born being more or less in tune with animals, but we have to learn and gain the knowledge and experience. A trainer that makes you feel inferior isn't a good trainer. 

It's tough. A trainer can't be a Stepford Wife. They cannot be all daisys, when your dog is confused by your body language, or endangering all the other dogs around you. They have to tell you what you are doing wrong. They have to help you find a better way to communicate with your dog. They have to have more in their tool box than an e-collar or a prong collar. They have to have a number of ways to get a behavior out of a dog. Because some methods might work for the dog, but not for the handler/dog team. The way to do this is not to belittle. 

You need to have a certain amount of patience to train dogs. You need ten times the patience to train people to train dogs. Because people are much more complex than dogs. This doesn't mean they should put you down. They need to listen to your concerns first. Got to be able to hear you. You were concerned about your dog attacking other dogs. This person did not value what you were saying. They weren't hearing/respecting what you were saying. How can you trust that? Then they need to communicate effectively why the dog is doing what it is doing, why they think the dog is doing what they are doing. And then they have to communicate how they want you to try to manage/train the problem. They need to observe and give constructive criticism, and they may have to re-think and try a new approach.

Frankly, I think you need to work with the dog you have rather than the dog you have pictured in your ideal. I think you need to evaluate her strengths and find things to do with her that bring out those strengths. Appreciate her for whom she is. 

One last thing: think about a pack of wild critters. What do they do when another of their species is in their territory? Now, think about a herding dog's job. What do they do? Herd sheep. What else? They protect the sheep. From what do they protect the sheep? Non-pack members of the two-footed and four-footed kind. That is in their make up. We have to usually encourage and train it and hone it, but a herding/guardian breed is bred with some inherent aggression, suspicion, and it is not a character flaw.

Yes, we do have to live with these critters, and yes we should be able to train them to behave contrary to their instincts. To remain under control when they see a dog they do not know. But to expect them to interact with dogs outside their pack is going 180 degrees. You're asking a lot of a dog, whose nature is to be friendly within its pack and have a healthy aloofness with other people and a healthy suspicion of other dogs. 

Your dog will be perfectly happy if it is NEVER put in a field and let to run and play with other dogs. For the rest of its life. That won't bother her at all. That is something we as humans believe dogs will like, because we think we would want to be around other people, because people have a need to break out of family groups and meet outsiders and make new groups. No so with dogs. Some dogs do fine in dog parks and tend to enjoy it greatly. Some dogs are very social with other dogs. And some are not. The dog doesn't have to be wired wrong not to like to play/interact with dogs outside of its own pack. 

Ok, done rambling.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

LuvShepherds said:


> Fresno isn't close to San Francisco, where the OP says she is. There must be closer trainers.


I know.
That's why I'm asking / offering.
See post #28


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Fodder said:


> Actually Chip, we're spoiled here -- there is a well known trainer in the area that provides her "pack of stable dogs" in her private sessions as needed. Many on the forum have used her.


Lisa?

OP, you might want to contact Lisa Maze (Muttamorphosis). She's in Vallejo and well versed in training aggressive dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ... closer does not necessarily mean it's "affordable" for the OP??" In the real world "cost" is a factory for most of us. Having said that ... most of "us" have never met! But a lot of us have been online together for uh ... years and we kinda know who is who and while we most certainly don't always agree on how to get things done ... we certainly know who is full of crap. 

Having said that ... I know enough about "Fodders" background that I would "Highly" value her recommendation! I would suggest that the "OP" contact "Fodders" recommendation for training, without reservation.  

Having said that the "Fresno" trainer she found ... I have no idea of there qualifications but I do know that there are not a lot of trainers that say "anything about" having stable packs available for rehabing dogs! To me ... that says she has to have asked about that?? That ... is kinda specific and the "OP" now ... has somewhat of a better understanding of what to look for. Most likely as Selzer stated ... she is going to be much less likely to be willing to be treated as a "tool!" Someone claiming to be a "Dog Trainer" cut no ice with me. I got what I needed (an answer as to why) and I did the rest ... worked out fine for me. Don't "assume" that they know more than you becasue they claim to be a dog "Trainer??" Advocate for your dog ... I think the "OP" gets that now. 

Having said that ... I don't want to "appear' to be to agreeable! In the real world ... I don't know anyone here??? If I saw you and your dogs on the street in Dayton NV?? I would most likely smile and wave politely ... from across the street ... I see a dog coming my way on the sidewalk and "we are gone!" Would have been a pack of three a few years ago ... Band Dawg, OS Wl GSD and a Boxer ... no "issues" with strays I'll add.  Pretty sure most folks thought ..."Thank God" upon seeing us move?? I don't know you and I don't know your dog ... keep your distance, I'll do the same ... is how we roll. Works out fine.  

So if you come here, for some Godforsaken Reason ... and see some guy with an Black OS Wl GSD that wobbles ... suddenly crossing the street upon seeing an approaching dog ... well that would be me!


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

I would wager that there are a lot of GSD's that are rehomed for similar reasons to what you are experiencing, simply because people get the dog expecting it to be able to be as social as a Golden, Lab, or other popular breeds. In just about every case I've ever seen they are setting themselves up to be disappointed. 

Think about what the breed was originally intended to do - herd and guard a flock. It is in their blood all the way back to the inception of the breed to bond with their pack, and to be wary and watchful of strangers. It may have been many, many generations in the past, but it is deeply rooted in their genetic makeup and very difficult to change ... and why would you want to? If you want a social butterfly, many other breeds will fit the bill nicely. Let your GSD be a GSD.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have nothing to add to this thread - you have great advise here on this thread -devour it!!!!!


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## NewGermiMommma (Feb 28, 2015)

There's also BAK9A in San Jose I believe


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NewGermiMommma said:


> There's also BAK9A in San Jose I believe


Me, Gunther (Band Dawg) and Struddell (White Boxer) are from San Jose! Rocky OS Wl GSD is a native Nevadan.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

ausdland said:


> Lisa?
> 
> 
> 
> OP, you might want to contact Lisa Maze (Muttamorphosis). She's in Vallejo and well versed in training aggressive dogs.



Well I will third Lisa since that is who I am sure Fodder was talking about. But there are other knowledgable trainers throughout the Bay Area. Fresno just seems so far when you consider all the dog resources there are throughout the Bay Area.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

mspiker03 said:


> Well I will third Lisa since that is who I am sure Fodder was talking about. But there are other knowledgable trainers throughout the Bay Area. Fresno just seems so far when you consider all the dog resources there are throughout the Bay Area.


Oh of course. I thought the person asking was in SF.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

ausdland said:


> Oh of course. I thought the person asking was in SF.



She is. All I was trying to say was that even if Lisa didn't work out - there are many other options throughout the Bay Area that would be great choices and a heck of a lot closer than Fresno.

I went to Lisa a few years ago so she is the one I have personal experience with. I think Lisa would be a great choice and has tons of GSD experience. I drove 3 hrs each way to work with her because there was no one to help where I live (but my parents are down there so I stayed with them). She helped get me on the right track after screwing up with puppy class. But I know of a few others as well down there. In general, there are just a ton of dog resources down there to choose from.


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## BostonChowder (Nov 28, 2016)

River sounds EXACTLY like my Maya...only Maya is a 10 month old puppy (Satan). I went through 5 trainers since May 2016. Over the past month, I've been working with an IPO helper/trainer who has been able to help us address/correct her dog aggression/fear aggression issues. We use a combination of e-collar, prong collar, and choke collar to address the dog aggression then balance it out with solid rewards. Maya is by no means out of the woods BUT she hasn't eaten any dogs over the last month. [She almost did today because I was caught off guard and she lunged so hard at a beagle that she ripped off my nail, but hey, she's a work in progress. :grin2:] 

I highly recommend seeking help from an IPO/working dog club trainer. It's a long road but I can personally tell you that there IS hope given you find the right trainer. Until then, try to limit your interactions with other dogs if possible.:wink2:


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