# Should I let my GSD have a litter



## Mperrone (Nov 24, 2017)

Hello everyone..

I am new to this board. I have had male GSD all my life and now I have my first female. The breeder I acquired her from said I should allow her one litter before I spay her. I was told it will be good for her. Is this true? She is papered.

Thanks for your advise..


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## Honeybee1999 (Mar 2, 2006)

Hello, thanks for coming here for advice. I will say that no, it is not a good idea to let your female have a litter just for the sake of having a litter before being spayed. Consider that pregnancy and whelping is risky for the mother. Many breeders here and elsewhere can give you firsthand stories of losing their females to complications from birthing a litter. Another consideration is the cost involved in providing proper care to the mother and potentially 7-11 puppies during pregnancy and until the pups are 8 weeks old (the correct time to allow them to go to their new homes). Not only is there extra vet care but also extra food costs, whelping supplies, bedding, constant laundry and cleaning, and so on. And finally, and most importantly, there is the problem of finding good homes for all the puppies when they are the right age to leave the mother. I know of breeders and personal friends who couldn't find enough homes for all their puppies, and ended up having to keep some. Are you prepared to have multiple dogs if you can't find homes? And if you decide you can just take them to a shelter or rescue, please please please consider the lives of the other, less adoptable dogs whose places those puppies would be taking up. There is only one reason to breed a dog, and that is to improve the breed through careful testing and selection of breeding stock. Just letting a female have a litter because someone said she should is not a good reason. Sorry.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

No. It is NOT a good idea. Being female and being papered is not a reason to breed your bitch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mperrone said:


> Hello everyone..
> 
> I am new to this board. I have had male GSD all my life and now I have my first female. The breeder I acquired her from said I should allow her one litter before I spay her. I was told it will be good for her. Is this true? She is papered.
> 
> Thanks for your advise..


NO. It is not true. Wait until she's mature, done growing, and spay her.


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## Mperrone (Nov 24, 2017)

Thanks for the great advise.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

there is evidence that letting your gal stay intact until she is grown may have some health benefits, but I've seen NO studies that show that having a litter is a good idea.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

But is that because it's not, or no body studies it? I'm not convinced either way...but...

And how would you go about measuring "benefits" anyway? Is the dog more or less happy? Better at ???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have bitches who are mothers and others who are not. 

I do not believe every bitch ought to be bred, and that a bitch cannot live a good life without having ever been bred. 

On the other hand, a bitch who has successfully whelped and raised a litter has something other bitches do not. GSD bitches tend to be awesome dams, who love their young with a true emotion that is powerful to see in an animal. It does mature them in a certain way. A bitch who has raised a litter has used instincts that otherwise will have never been used and perhaps never needed. But, it can make a change, even in a bitch that is 4 when she has her first litter, so it is not just that she was completing the maturation process. 

The thing is, there is so much more to be considered. Just like never getting a puppy or another dog for your dog, you really should never breed a bitch for your bitch. It has to be something you truly want to do. To do it right, it takes a lot of time and effort on you part, before the animals are bred, during the whelping and raising period and after the pups are raised. 

How much support are you going to get from your breeder. Is she going to determine breed-worthiness? Is she going to select a stud dog? Is she going to help you with whelping questions? Is she going to help with placing the puppies in a new home? Did you purchase you bitch puppy with an agreement that she be bred or is she co-owned by the breeder?

Breeding isn't for everyone. Not everyone has the space, or the time, or the temperament to whelp and raise a litter. Sure if you are home all day, you can take your bitch out more frequently. If you have a doggy door to a secure kennel that works too. Watching puppies grow is not just a lazy, occupation for the independently wealthy, it is watching and evaluating each puppy so that when you place them, they have a chance of remaining with their families. But that stuff is pretty much obvious. It is the temperament of the breeder that is perhaps even more important. 

Well, you have to be a people person. You have to be willing to spend hours on the phone listening to people. You have to read lots of e-mails and you have to know when the offensive things you hear indicate that the buyers will be substandard owners, and when it just makes you feel butt-hurt. And, you have to know how to answer people, to get the result that is needed, without an enemy. Because it isn't just people coming to the door with a bunch of 50s and going away with a puppy. Sometimes you have to deny them a puppy. And lots of people do not like to hear such a denial. So, you have to do it, delicately. I prefer to skillfully steer them to the conclusion themselves. 

Be that as it may. You may have 7 to 14 puppies that will need new homes and that is probably the most important part of the whole thing. Finding the right people, people you trust with one of the puppies that you have become attached to, is easier for some than for others. 

But there are other considerations. Breeding should not be gone into lightly. 

You can lose your bitch. If you do not educate yourself on what to expect in the whelping process, and miss the signs, then you can lose your bitch and it is a hard pill to swallow if it is indeed your fault. Not every bitch that dies in the process is someone's fault. But it can be. Evenso, GSDs tend to have long puppies without over-large heads, and while whelping complications can happen, they can be easy whelpers. I will say that when you are beside that whelping box watching your exhausted bitch straining to deliver a puppy that doesn't seem to want to come out, you will be apologizing and promising, and worried that you should maybe rush her to a vet. 

There is a lot of blood and fluid, mess and stink involved in this. The whelping process has a smell of its own. When I have bitch ready to pop, I open the door and take a whiff to see if it started. Sometimes you have a litter where all the puppies live and the bitch takes to them, and every thing goes smoothly. Often times you lose puppies, you can't get them going, or maybe one comes out that never finished developing, and isn't alive. Sometimes you have a pretty little one that only lives for a few hours. Sometimes you spend days trying to get them over the hump, and sometimes they make it, and sometimes they do not. 

It hasn't happened to me yet, but a friend had six puppies and the one girl started having troubles. They dropped over 10k into her, with several surgeries, and finally they lost her. It happens. 

Another lady, I bred my dog to her bitch, and she was so excited to get a litter out of her bitch. Well, she had to have an emergency c-section and lost them all. It devastated her. She almost lost her bitch. She bought a dog-pup from me and neutered him right away. It does happen.

Another lady had a litter out of two pups I sold her. The one out of 5 that she had left that went to someone she did not know, the owners called her about a year later. She had given the pups away without papers. But she could get them because both sire and dam were registered, and they called wanting the papers. She called me. I asked her some pointed questions. The bitch was in heat and they wanted to find a stud dog for her. Ok. They got a free puppy and now they want her to be registered so they could breed her. At one year. I told her to tell them that one of her puppies died and she was not providing papers because she did not feel that the puppies ought to be bred since they were too closely bred. They dropped the yearling bitch, in heat off to her the next day when no one was home. She was emaciated. I suggested my friend have her spayed immediately because there was no way to tell, but I felt that it was most likely that they had already bred the bitch and dumped her because the puppies would not be worth anything. 

Should you breed your bitch? Well, that is a decision you need to make for yourself. Not for your bitch. Not for your breeder, unless you promised or are contracted in some way. But you have the answer, but you ought to go into it with your eyes wide open.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> But is that because it's not, or no body studies it? I'm not convinced either way...but...
> 
> And how would you go about measuring "benefits" anyway? Is the dog more or less happy? Better at ???


As Selzer pointed out, whelping changes a bitch without a doubt. It can and does often have adverse health affects. Especially when dealing with under educated owners who don't take adequate care of the bitch. Or don't check that the bitch should be bred to start with.
It will add a wisdom and a certain demeanor to a good bitch. It can be devastating to an unstable bitch. Both my husband and myself watched bitches slaughter their entire litters, he as a child and me as a young woman. I have seen two bitches that lost litters and became completely unhinged, one so very badly that it was soon evident that the kindest thing to do for her was end her suffering. 

So I guess at the end of the day the answer is, if a bitch is breed worthy having a litter may make her better in some ways. If she isn't the chances are pretty good that she won't benefit in any way, and fair that the experience will end in heart ache for all involved.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> I have bitches who are mothers and others who are not.
> 
> I do not believe every bitch ought to be bred, and that a bitch cannot live a good life without having ever been bred.
> 
> ...



More than anything @selzer one can always tell that your answers come from the heart! This isn't science, but it's years and years of experience talking, and I appreciate your honesty! 

My response previously was not specifically targeting anyone who has responded to this thread, it's honestly a plea for information. I have whelped many a litter over the years, but the OP was talking about 1. Just for the benefit of the bitch. I know there are millions of dogs and puppies who need homes now waiting in shelters, and I'm not attempting to belittle that point at all. But when anyone says definitively that a bitch is "fine" not ever having a litter, I can't help thinking - how is it even possibly to "know" that?

I rescued a blue healer who had a litter of puppies unexpectedly, and the farmer who owned her at the time drowned them the day they were born. The Heeler would not listen to him after that, so we got her. She was a great dog, but the scar on her psyche was always evident...

I've had birches also that did and did not have litters. But the ones that did became more somehow. It's not easy to explain, they were just more stable...or mature? It hasn't been that many times, so it could be coincidence...not sure. But 
If anyone has actual studies that PROVE these statements about not having a litter is fine, please share them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> More than anything @*selzer* one can always tell that your answers come from the heart! This isn't science, but it's years and years of experience talking, and I appreciate your honesty!
> 
> My response previously was not specifically targeting anyone who has responded to this thread, it's honestly a plea for information. I have whelped many a litter over the years, but the OP was talking about 1. Just for the benefit of the bitch. I know there are millions of dogs and puppies who need homes now waiting in shelters, and I'm not attempting to belittle that point at all. But when anyone says definitively that a bitch is "fine" not ever having a litter, I can't help thinking - how is it even possibly to "know" that?
> 
> ...


The answer is impossible. You cannot split a bitch in two and let one live out her life without ever being bred, and the other half being bred and compare them. You can't take two of the same litter and compare. You cannot turn back the clock and see how she would have been with a major life-change. 

The nine weeks of pregnancy might not effect a bitch much. I mean the hormones attack her apparatus the same whether she is bred or not. The 12-48 hours of whelping might make a difference beyond a day or two. But the hormones and instincts are so powerful, that those babies will live without any help from us at all. She knows to bite the cords, she knows to clean the puppies, she knows to keep in with them to let them nurse. She literally knows it all, and she will let even her fierce devotion to her favorite person slip in favor of the helpless babies. For eight weeks she takes care of her puppies. And yes, some pull her out at 4 or 5 weeks. Mine are in there for eight weeks. But it makes a change. It does. They are maternal. Jenna loves babies, puppies. She was downright depressed when I let her last two go at three years of age. I told her I would get her a puppy. I did. She loves Kojak. She trained him right up. She's maternal. 

And Babs, never super-dam like Jenna, but she is in with Quinnie, and she has been known to mother a hairless baby mouse in my bed. She'd mother other dam's pups, kittens, ducks, tigers if she had the opportunity. 

Bear, when she had her last litter, I had the girls over, and they were right there. She treated them like they were just two more of her puppies. Which makes you wonder if the mothering quality that they obtain by whelping and raising a litter is stronger around children. Don't know, can't turn back the clock and reset.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just to keep the perspective

Sabi never had pups. She was mother of the year, if it was small and needed a mom she was all over it. Goats, pups, kittens, bunnies, birds kids. Made no difference to her. She loved them all, and was utterly fabulous at teaching them everything.
She was spayed at 3.5, so you can't blame hormones. In fact was sterile to start with based on the necrotic tissue the vet found. So perhaps it is an instinct that is based in their genetics rather then their hormones.
As Selzer said it is not anything we can test, because we can't make a bitch not have had a litter once she has.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

To the person that originally posted here (OP) , do you have a pedigree you'd care to share?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

To me it's just such a complex area that I honestly don't know...

Science, however, is based on data. So if there's data out there to PROVE that a bitch is somehow better off not having had a litter, I'd like to see it...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

you aren't likely to find true scientific study because it's not likely to be something that would attract the funding necessary for such an undertaking. 

The main thing cited by those who say let them have a litter is "it will calm them down" and that, just like the opposite view of "spay them, it will calm them down," is malarkey. Will it calm some of them? Yes, maybe. Will spaying calm them? Research has proven the opposite in that it makes some dogs worse. If you have a bitch who has aggression issues, training issues, things that you want to "calm them down" will having a litter do that? Probably not. And, in a nervy bitch (genetic temperament or simply not "good with people") that is going to be passed on to the pups. They will likely inherit her bad temperament if it's genetic. And, even if it's not, she teaches them how to interact with the world. And if that is not in a good, trusting way, that is how pups will start out viewing life. And there is a good deal of research on how much pups learn from their mother. Even obedience training observed by the pups will put them ahead of the curve in training. So you weigh the chance of passing on less-than-stellar genes to the puppies. Of early training that will put them at a disadvantage interacting with the human world. 

Then there are health dangers to the mother. It's a possibility in all species. In dogs, dangers can actually start at the act of copulation itself. Will she accept the stud? Some won't and will fight. Some dogs will panic at the tie and try to pull apart, causing injury to both dog and bitch. Some will panic and try to attack during the tie. 
This is followed by all the usual dangers of pregnancy. Then all the potential dangers of whelping to both dam and pups. 

So, it comes down to a matter of "is having a litter the best way to calm down a dog" or to bring out mature instincts? There are other ways of doing that without relying on the crap shoot of "will she be a good mother" Some dogs will be excellent mothers. Some will be so-so mothers. Some will be horrible mothers, even to the point of killing their puppies.


Finally there is the fact that, in most species of canines, not breeding is the norm. Only the alpha female is allowed to reproduce.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> To me it's just such a complex area that I honestly don't know...
> 
> Science, however, is based on data. So if there's data out there to PROVE that a bitch is somehow better off not having had a litter, I'd like to see it...


There is no data either way, whether the bitch is somehow better off not having been bred, or if the bitch is somehow better off having been bred. I think we can all harbor our opinions about that. 

Not every person is cut out to manage what goes into breeding: the time, the effort, the potential for heartbreak. It should never be gone into only for the good of the bitch. 

And there are dogs dying somewhere in the world for want of a home. And if every owner of a bitch-puppy had just one litter, given the average litter size is 7 puppies, and approximately half the canines out there are females. The number of dogs living next year would be 3.5 x the number of current 2 year old dogs. And in 2 years, you can multiply that number by 3.5 and in another 2 years you can multiply that number by 3.5. We would at minimum triple the canine population every 2 years. If humans had to survive by eating dogs, that might not be such a bad thing, but I for one prefer the idea of feeding dogs from the table than serving dog on the table. 

So it remains, if you heart and soul and breath isn't into the idea of breeding your bitch than just say no. It isn't for everyone. I think that 20-30 years ago when the humane organizations married responsible dog ownership to spaying and neutering and never having a litter, it created a lot more problems. It created the 600-1000 dog puppy mills. And was the worst thing ever that happened to canines. But I also think there is no going back to where we were before-hand, that if you had a purebred dog, and even if you had a mutt, you might have a litter or two of puppies, out of your pet, and everyone got their dogs from such places. People nowadays have trouble house training, and reactivity and resource guarding. People do not have the ease that they have had in the past with keeping dogs. How would these people be at breeding them?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

When I decided to comment on this thread I was actually hoping someone would post some evidence proving the assertion that it's not beneficial for the bitch to have a litter. I see why doing such a study would be borderline impossible. Even if the sample were large enough, any results would be anecdotal as far as behavior is concerned. Health wise, if there were any concrete health benefits either way I expect it would be well documented and somebody on this forum would know about it >

Still @selzer and @Dainerra and @Sabis mom gave very compelling reasons not to breed your bitch for her benefit only. The risks outway any possible benefits.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I can not think of any breeder that would tell you this. It sounds more like a belief or a cultural belief being pushed at you. I’m sure your dog will be much more healthier without having a litter. Their are major complications that can and do go wrong when delivering a litter of pups that can cost the pregnant dogs life if go unnoticed or noticed and ignored. 

I remember growing up as a kid Hearing many stories of dog bites from back in the day. My friend getting mauled by a gsd walking by someone’s house in her la gears. no one seemed to be able to take care of their dog they let them loose and I remember seeing 10 dogs trying to mate one female in the middle of a busy road, TWas a common everyday site. It was a free for all. The kids all roamed the streets and so did the dogs. I think the population was growing so there became many problems with the dogs. I’m sure his is why spay and neuter was pushed down everyone’s throat -not so healthy for the dog but considering who owned the dogs it was forced to be for the greater good for the dogs sadly.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

to answer the original poster > can I say your breeder is ill informed (I'd say something else but not appropriate most likely Whether you choose to spay or not to spay is up to you, but no, I wouldn't breed your female. Why add to the population? Enjoy her, love her and leave it at that


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jenny720 said:


> I can not think of any breeder that would tell you this. It sounds more like a belief or a cultural belief being pushed at you. I’m sure your dog will be much more healthier without having a litter. Their are major complications that can and do go wrong when delivering a litter of pups that can cost the pregnant dogs life if go unnoticed or noticed and ignored.
> 
> I remember growing up as a kid Hearing many stories of dog bites from back in the day. My friend getting mauled by a gsd walking by someone’s house in her la gears. no one seemed to be able to take care of their dog they let them loose and I remember seeing 10 dogs trying to mate one female in the middle of a busy road, TWas a common everyday site. It was a free for all. The kids all roamed the streets and so did the dogs. I think the population was growing so there became many problems with the dogs. I’m sure his is why spay and neuter was pushed down everyone’s throat -not so healthy for the dog but considering who owned the dogs it was forced to be for the greater good for the dogs sadly.


Well, this is a containment issue. Too bad people weren't ecouraged with the same zeal to keep their dogs contained properly. 

I don't think it is more healthy for a bitch to never be bred. It is like saying it is more healthy for a woman to never have a child. When, women who never have children tend to go into menopause earlier, and I wonder if any studies have been done on the average lifespan of women with a child or children as opposed to women who have never had children. Of course, it is a complex issue. I we, childless, tend to die earlier than our fellows who have children, is it because of a failure in our system to stay balanced physically, or is it because of mental/emotional causes which dogs would not suffer, at least not to the same extent. Or because women who have children are driven to be active to chase after children and mount in excitement and adrenalin at all of the events of motherhood from the dawning of life to the ending of life -- graduations, weddings, grandchildren, accidents, etc., that we child-less experience from the sidelines if at all. So once again, we truly cannot make a complete comparison between human and dogs, not even physiologically, sharing the animal kingdom and mammal class, because our mental/emotional/spiritual selves effect the physical. And the pressures of cultural expectations might severely effect women who do not have children. 

Of course if childless women tend to live longer, all other things being equal than maybe it is indeed healthier to never experience pregnancy or motherhood.

Unless the pregnancy, whelping is abnormal, it is not unhealthy for the bitch, otherwise the survival of the species would be in trouble rather than over-populated.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I really don’t think one way or the other is healthier. I have never given it much thought it depends on the indvidual and many other factors. It is truly an odd statement to make and to think of breeding must also think of the things that can go wrong it’s part of it and natural. The advise the breeder gave the op is unhealthy- it truly is.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Mperrone said:


> Hello everyone..
> 
> I am new to this board. I have had male GSD all my life and now I have my first female. The breeder I acquired her from said I should allow her one litter before I spay her. I was told it will be good for her. Is this true? She is papered.
> 
> Thanks for your advise..


To the OP. I'm not surprised that many on this forum are advising you against breeding your female. That is to be expected. However, I think it is only fair that people provide supporting evidence for their position, which so far none have.

So, I would like to offer you my opinion and supporting evidence. Considering your female's health from a purely physiologic standpoint, your female will have greater health benefit from spaying her before her first heat cycle than waiting to have a litter and then spaying her. The risk of canine mammary gland tumor is dramatically decreased with early spaying. If you go to the National Institute of Health website- https://www.nih.gov/ and search "canine mammary gland tumor" you will find the evidence. Goodluck!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This question was asked to have a litter before she is spayed the age not specified. A dog should not be bred at first heat cycle either she is still way to young. Yes spaying does reduce mammary tumors if done before their heat cycle at a young age but spaying at a young age before two years old can cause many other health issues including joint issues. There are many articles to support this. 
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> To the OP. I'm not surprised that many on this forum are advising you against breeding your female. That is to be expected. However, I think it is only fair that people provide supporting evidence for their position, which so far none have.
> 
> So, I would like to offer you my opinion and supporting evidence. Considering your female's health from a purely physiologic standpoint, your female will have greater health benefit from spaying her before her first heat cycle than waiting to have a litter and then spaying her. The risk of canine mammary gland tumor is dramatically decreased with early spaying. If you go to the National Institute of Health website- https://www.nih.gov/ and search "canine mammary gland tumor" you will find the evidence. Goodluck!


But let's not forget the first heat comes well before the first birthday and juvenile spaying is associated with MANY other health issues and even behavior issues...

Spaying a female before the age of 1 increases risks of:

Shortened Lifespan

Hip Dysplasia

Cranial Crucial Ligament Tears

Osteosarcoma

Lymphoma 

Hemangiosarcoma

Mast Cell Tumors 

Cystitis 

Increased risk of vaccination reaction

Increased risk risk of anxiety based behavior - noise phobias, separation anxiety, aggression etc

Obesity

Incontinence 

Hypothyroidism

and many more...

Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity: lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs - Waters - 2009 - Aging Cell - Wiley Online Library

Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers

https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.244.3.309

The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying in bitches. - Abstract - Europe PMC

https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224.380


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It used to be people would let males mature before neutering and spay females really early. But too many health concerns are connected to early spaying. I would wait a minimum of 2 years for females as well as males if I chose to alter at all. 

We do not want to decrease the risk of mammary tumors which might affect a bitch later in life, usually over 8, maybe over 10 years old. And increase the risk of hemangiosarcoma and osteosarcoma which are both killers, and they often take dogs young. And, as mentioned, early spay can cause other health issues, including joint issues.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> It used to be people would let males mature before neutering and spay females really early. But too many health concerns are connected to early spaying. I would wait a minimum of 2 years for females as well as males if I chose to alter at all.
> 
> We do not want to decrease the risk of mammary tumors which might affect a bitch later in life, usually over 8, maybe over 10 years old. And increase the risk of hemangiosarcoma and osteosarcoma which are both killers, and they often take dogs young. And, as mentioned, early spay can cause other health issues, including joint issues.


Based on the study referenced by Voodoolamb, you may want to consider waiting until your female is over 4 years of age before spaying to achieve the longevity benefit of ovarian exposure.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> However, I think it is only fair that people provide supporting evidence for their position, which so far none have.


Not sure how we have failed to support our opinions? The fact is that if you breed a bitch, you are putting her at risk. Much more so if you lack experience. Then you have the cost, sleepless nights, endless cleaning, 8 weeks of puppies running about, longer if you are unable to find homes and at the end of it you may have to take puppies back or you worry endlessly when buyers vanish with them.
There is no evidence to support the fact that it is healthier for them to have pups, no evidence that it is healthier for them not to. But once that dice is rolled you, and your bitch, live with the consequences good or bad.
Incidentally, I have owned several unspayed bitches that never produced litters and lived long, healthy lives.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Based on the study referenced by Voodoolamb, you may want to consider waiting until your female is over 4 years of age before spaying to achieve the longevity benefit of ovarian exposure.


If you are referring to the rottweiler study.. the age would be 6. Female rottweilers spayed after the age of 6 were 4.6 times more likely to reach the age of 13 than ones spayed before 6...


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> If you are referring to the rottweiler study.. the age would be 6. Female rottweilers spayed after the age of 6 were 4.6 times more likely to reach the age of 13 than ones spayed before 6...


Yes I was referring to that study, which is a very nice cohort study btw. My conclusion of waiting after 4 years before spaying was based on the following:

However, removal of ovaries during the first 4 years of life (i.e. median age at ovariectomy) erased the female survival advantage over males (OR, 95% CI = 1.2, 0.7–2.2; P = 0.55). In females that retained their ovaries for more than 4 years, likelihood of exceptional longevity increased to more than three times that of males (OR, 95% CI = 3.2, 1.8–5.7; P < 0.0001).

Thank you for this study. I am a firm believer in evidence-based medicine for humans and animals.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Based on the study referenced by Voodoolamb, you may want to consider waiting until your female is over 4 years of age before spaying to achieve the longevity benefit of ovarian exposure.


Actually, I do not alter at all, unless I believe there is an issue, for this reason, Odie is the only bitch out of 13 that I currently have that is spayed. 

She and 4 others have been bred and whelped and raised litters. 

Out of the other 8 bitches, 1 will be bred if possible but is nearing 5 years, which has been my cut-off for a first litter. 2 are up and coming. Last year I re-homed my 2-3 year olds that I was not intending to breed. Which makes me a bit top-heavy at present. 

Babs and Jenna have raised litters and are 12.
Heidi has not and is 11, though she is intact. 
Odie was spayed at age 7 or 8, and is now 10. 
Milla and Ninja are intact (never bred) and 9. 

Since we are talking longevity, I will stop there. I have seen 7 year old dogs that look and act older than Jenna. Babs acts more her age. Babs had a litter first, at almost 3 years old, and Jenna did not start having litters until four. Jenna had 5 litters with a total of 39 pups and never had one born dead and never failed to raise one. Babs had 3 litters with a total of 11 live puppies, and we lost one out of her first litter (probably more my fault than hers). Babs is the smaller bitch and at 2 years old, was 58 pounds. Somewhere after that first litter, Babs' weight got to be excellent, and then before the last litter she got fat. I picked her up yesterday to groom her and cut her toe nails, and yeah, she could still lose a few. Jenna, the larger bitch, was always more active and at a better weight, and still is. 

Heidi is a lot like Jenna. At eleven you could mistake her for a 6 year old. So no gain/no loss at having never been bred. She is a full sister to Dubya's twin daughters (Babs and Jenna), just a year later. 

Odie acts her age, but 10 isn't exactly dead. I took weight off her and we found her waist-line again, so that is helping. She was spayed later in life, so that may have helped. It would not shock me if she goes before Jenna and or Heidi though. It would shock me if she goes before Babsy. 

Ninja and Milla have been quite healthy. I have to say that on a sample of six with 3 being full-sisers and two of the remaining being out of one of the three, there is not much difference in their health and well-being up into their senior years, depending on whether or not they whelped and raised a litter.


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