# Food Aggression



## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on tips for a food/treat aggressive GSD. Has anyone had this problem and what training method has actually stopped the problem?


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Could you please describe a few specific situations so we can have a idea of what you are dealing with.

Are you talking around the food bowl, when using treats for training, chewing on bones? What exactly are you doing and what is your dog doing?


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

It's over his normal meals and treats that he doesn't get a lot. If I come too close he will show his teeth and growl. If he feels like I might grab the food he will lunge at me like he's telling me to back off by barking and trying to intimidate me.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

That's the only time he does it, but it needs to stop.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Use "trade up" 






While he's eating (boring old kibble), walk by and toss a piece of cheese or other super-yummy treat in the dish. 
Your goal is to make him look forward to you approaching his dish


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I liked this vid alot too. I'd expect she started by simply tossing a piece of "better" food (better than kibble) near the dish and worked up to having the dog leave the bowl, etc., for the better food.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Your dog is resource guarding which is basically due to the fear of loosing whatever the particular resource is in this case food. Most of the time this issue is do to insecurity so I like to deal with it by making the dog understand there is no need to feel threatened by me coming near the food. I do this by adding things to my dogs dish or giving him a treat while chewing on a bone. You want your dog to think that when you are around good things will happen not bad.

The video does not show how to rehabilitate but it shows what can be accomplished with this method. At around 2:19 they start to show the progress they have made. The earlier part of the video is quite hard to watch but I assume they do this to show how bad the dog was. Once you know your dog has resource guarding issues you do not want to push them passed their comfort zone. Desensitization is all about working just outside the dogs thresholds. This is why I recommend you follow a desensitization program under the guidance of a trainer.

I do not agree with showing the dog that you are in control and can always take things away or can play with there food. I think once food or treats are given a dog should be left in peace. You most certainly want to be able to take something away from your dog if needed in an emergency but this can be accomplished by making your dog feel comfortable in your presence instead of feeling threatened.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Nice you beat me to it


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

Thank you for the wonderful videos. This will give me a good start on trying to correct Kaiser's mental association with me and his food. I want it to be a good association and not bad. Just want to prevent any future accidents with strangers or myself. Thanks again!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How old is the dog? 

To me that would make a great deal of difference in how you would go about instilling in the dog that he/she cannot and doesn't have any need to guard/protect their food or any other object. With a younger dog just take it from him, and then hold it a second or two and give it right back to him with much praise (as long as he didn't react negatively.

BTW, a lot of the times, with many dogs (don't know about yours, of course) the WAY that you take it and your body language can make a HUGE difference in the dog's reaction. Just walk right over to many dogs like you KNEW that you could and you expect no nonsense, and the dog will just stand there and let you. However, go to him like you expect a problem i.e. hesitantly or the like and the dog is MUCH more apt to think that he can get away with "protecting" his stuff! Of course you also have to have Plan B if he does react to you taking it.

Obviously, if you are afraid of your dog or just are reluctant to have any type of confrontation - then don't. Get a trainer/behaviorist to be right there to assist you.

We saw a similar thing with my dog (now a 4+yo male bossy GSD), only it was to do with getting a collar and leash on him in his run. I was laid up with a knee replacement and we hired a dog walker - first few times went fine and then one day he just decided he didn't have to get his collar on, so he reacted when the walker tried to put it on him. I think that the walker was always a little bit afraid/cautious with our guy and she finally admitted one day that she couldn't get his collar on for one day. A second person had no problem with him at all - we think it was due to the approach of the two different walkers - one was a little hesitant and it showed while the other wasn't at all. Our dog never gave the second one any problem at all. Now our dog was an adult about 2yo when this happened and had been called "very dominant and a bully" by his breeder, and he just tried to get away with his own way. BTW, When he was younger, he tried a couple times with me not to do something i told him but hasn't tried anything for a long time now.

He has to learn that you, or any other family member, can take anything he has away from him for any reason or for no reason. Not that you will do it a lot, but he has to learn that you can w/o ANY negative reaction from him, much less growling or snapping.

Good luck with your pup.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

May I ask...how long have you had your puppy, and how old is the puppy now?


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

Kaiser is a year and 8 months. I've taken the food away when he's acted that way and then give it back when he's nice, but it still ends up back at square one. I've worked with a couple trainers already and evenly privately in the house. My boyfriend tends to be the pack leader in the house in my dogs eyes, but yet he still will growl and show teeth about his food when my boyfriend approaches. I've sat there and hand fed him a couple times hoping he would see it as a positive thing. He ends up trying to boss me around and try to take the bowl from me. I haven't tried giving him higher value treats while he's eating though. I will use the clicker next time with something he loves and see what happens.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

I've had Kaiser since he was 8 weeks and he's now a year and 8 months


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

He wasn't food aggressive till that long ago when I gave him a higher quality food


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

KaiserGSDLove said:


> Kaiser is a year and 8 months. I've taken the food away when he's acted that way and then give it back when he's nice, but it still ends up back at square one.


You're back at square one because all you did was teach him that he was right to guard his food because you were going to take it from him. 

Give hime 2 weeks to eat his meals in his crate ALONE without any pestering from you. And then start doing this:
Food Guarding

It won't be a quick method but it will teach your dog that you being around his food is GOOD, nothing something to be worried about.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

That Food Guarding article was a very good step by step. I just bookmarked it thanks Jamie!

Also keep in mind when you start on a training plan you must not deviate from it. If you start this plan but someone else in your family keeps doing the old habits your dog will think you guys very untrustworthy and you will have a much harder time of it.

I tried to teach this once to someone who did not want to learn and it was so frustrating he would always want to just stand there and stare at his dogs and nothing got through to him that he was doing harm. It makes me mad just thinking about it!

Good luck!!


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Oh just a note on the clicker I would go clicker free and just drop the treats you don't want to mistakenly mark something you did not intend.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Agreed, I am not good enough w/the clicker to use one really, but you can do all the same w/out clickers.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> You're back at square one because all you did was teach him that he was right to guard his food because you were going to take it from him.
> 
> Give hime 2 weeks to eat his meals in his crate ALONE without any pestering from you. And then start doing this:
> Food Guarding
> ...



While I can understand what you are saying I disagree. I didn't grab it out of no where for no reason. The few times I have taken any kind of food from him was for certain reasons. I don't pester him while he eats as you may think. I usually leave him alone and as you have read from the previous comments this didn't develop till I switched to a higher quality food that he must value more. I should be able to grab his food in certain instances and don't see that as pestering. A little kid comes by and if he's not taught these things there would be problems. Thank you for the comment and I'm going to try the treat with positive association technique.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

oh and the times I did have to take the food away I gave him treats.


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## Kaz (Nov 21, 2011)

Free feeding FTW! They dont get possessive. 

And you dont have to worry about the dog over eating or you being there at feeding times.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

Kaz said:


> Free feeding FTW! They dont get possessive.
> 
> And you dont have to worry about the dog over eating or you being there at feeding times.



Hi Kaz, you free feed your gsd and have had no problems with too much weight gain?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I would not recommend free feeding at all. 
That's not the answer to your problems.



> I should be able to grab his food in certain instances and don't see that as pestering.


There you go, assuming the dog is going to take on your moral stance.
Please. It is an animal. All they knew is to guard, if they don't, they could die (loss of food means loss of life).
It's a very base instinct.
If you don't think it'll work that's fine, but if you don't try, how will you know?
The way to get them to relax about their food is to make them feel more secure about eating, not _less._


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I would not recommend free feeding at all.
> That's not the answer to your problems.
> 
> 
> ...



I understand dogs guard food and it's instinct. I get why he's doing it, but I guess what is not understood is my meaning of why I think it's ok to take the food once in awhile. The only reason to take the food is such as when I grabbed his bone because I saw it as a choking hazard when it got too small. Everyone is assuming I am taking away from my dog to punish and that is not the case.


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## Kaz (Nov 21, 2011)

KaiserGSDLove said:


> Hi Kaz, you free feed your gsd and have had no problems with too much weight gain?


Absolutely none. 

Manfred eats his kibbles when hungry, he does not over eat. Some times when he is too busy playing to eat, I sit him down and feed him with my hands.

Over eating is never a problem with free feeding. 

Pups like human kids want what is denied to them. What is commonly available loses the charm for them.

Manfred has just stolen an apple and is happily munching it as I write this.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

Kaz said:


> Absolutely none.
> 
> Manfred eats his kibbles when hungry, he does not over eat. Some times when he is too busy playing to eat, I sit him down and feed him with my hands.
> 
> ...


Ah good point. I do know a few who leave the food out but they are not German Shepherds, other breeds. A couple of the dogs have gotten fat that's why I wasn't sure. Haha, Manfred I hope you're enjoying that apple!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kaz said:


> Over eating is never a problem with free feeding.


Baloney. Overeating has never been a problem for YOU with free feeding. (How may dogs have you tested this theory on, BTW?) It would definitely be a problem with my dogs.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

One more time - an owner or any family member at least MUST be able to take anything: food, a favorite toy, a real bone, anything out of the very mouth of the dog at any time. 

This is true for a number of reasons including the dog's safety as well as the safety of anyone happening to try to pet the dog or walk near him/her when he is eating or chewing. 

This is not to harrass the dog in any way - in fact mine thinks it is a big game when I take something away from him and he will just sit and wait knowing that he will eventually most likely get it back.

Who cares what the dog's "Instinct" is about food? It is not in their instincts to come when called or to heel either but we make them have that behavior when they live with us as well.

I personally cannot believe that anyone could live with a dog that they are afraid to take a toy away from them or even go near them when they are eating from their bowl. But everyone should raise their own dog as they believe. More power to you (or to your dog in some cases).


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> One more time - an owner or any family member at least MUST be able to take anything: food, a favorite toy, a real bone, anything out of the very mouth of the dog at any time.
> 
> This is true for a number of reasons including the dog's safety as well as the safety of anyone happening to try to pet the dog or walk near him/her when he is eating or chewing.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I agree. This is what I was trying to explain as well. Well said


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## Kaz (Nov 21, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Baloney. Overeating has never been a problem for YOU with free feeding. (How may dogs have you tested this theory on, BTW?) It would definitely be a problem with my dogs.



Theres a lot of people who free feed. So its NOT baloney. 

If you have been giving your dogs timed feedings and then make a transition to free feeding, then yeah, it would be a problem in the beginning. 

If your dog is older and used to timed feeds, it will be harder for him to transition to free feeding, compared to a younger dog.

I and several others who have full time jobs and have to leave the dog alone have no option but to adopt Free feeding.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

KaiserGSDLove said:


> While I can understand what you are saying I disagree. I didn't grab it out of no where for no reason. The few times I have taken any kind of food from him was for certain reasons. I don't pester him while he eats as you may think. I usually leave him alone and as you have read from the previous comments this didn't develop till I switched to a higher quality food that he must value more. I should be able to grab his food in certain instances and don't see that as pestering. A little kid comes by and if he's not taught these things there would be problems. Thank you for the comment and I'm going to try the treat with positive association technique.


Well, you certainly put a whole lot of assumptions into my post that weren't there. I never said you take it from him for no reason or that you do it all the time.

If he growls, and you take things from him because he growls then you are reinforcing that he was right to worry about him taking his food and he will only growl again and likely get progressively worse. I have worked several food aggression cases, trust me.

The reason for the two week let him be is to reset everything. To let him get comfortable eating and to not be on edge everytime you walk near his food and THEN you can start building the positive association. Until then, management.

Did you read the link I posted?

It is so tiring to see the crowd who disagree with those of us who leave our dogs the heck alone assume that we don't also think you should be able to take things away whenever you want. The difference is we TEACH our dogs that taking things away is OK and not something to worry about and we do it without bulllying and pestering.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Just me... I'd prepare the food infront of him with my hands. I'd spit in it too so it smelled like my saliva and that i'd been there and eaten what I wanted out of it. Make sure he watches as you mess with the food. I'd then put the food on the ground and I'd "guard" it. If he comes in, politely and firmly let him know that right now, the food is still yours. When he respects that for a second, tell him ok and get up and walk away. Don't take his food after its given to him. Thats unnatural and its being a bully/jerk. If he will tolerate it, approach while he's eating with loud praise (so long as he's not being aggressive), and give slow, back petting. If he tries to rotate away from you he's not comfortable with it. Stay away from the food though. And be very aware of when you're messing with him too much during meal time.

This is how I've been with mine. All three eat side by side. I have no aggression issues with any of them, and anyone can walk up and stick their hand in the bowl if they want. So, I must be doing something right


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kaz said:


> Theres a lot of people who free feed. So its NOT baloney.


Yeah it IS - you're trying to say that just because SOME dogs do very well with free feeding, then ALL dogs would do well with free feeding. Sorry, but that's an assumption, anecdotal "evidence", not supported by any factss. I don't dispute that it's working for you. Please be assured that it would NOT work for me.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I must be doing something right


Or they all think you are crazy. 

Really, I think it's so silly the lengths that people go through to "make sure" their dogs don't have guarding issues. I've done absolutely nothing to establish to Raven, Kaiser and most of the various fosters that have been through here that the food is mine and have had zero issues taking even the most high value things away from them.

Only 1 case where a dog had an unknown guarding issue that I found out when I tried to take something. And any other cases, I took because I knew they had guarding issues and they came here to work it out. All of those dogs were given time to understand that their food is not in constant danger of disappearing and then taught to share.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Regarding the free-feeding--my first dog free-fed. He was not particularly food-motivated, now I know why.  Free-feeding removes much of that training motivation. He also DID gain weight after the first few years. Not tons, but he definitely did as he got older. My friends have a collie mix that IS a good dog, but when they ask her to do a command, such as "sit" or "come", she ignores them. Luckily for them, she is a naturally well-tempered dog who doesn't stray far from their side. She will obey the dad half the time, but why should she? They are not the center of all good-things. Good things are always in the food bowl. 

Every dog I know that is free-fed is overweight. Seriously. Start looking at the dogs you know and come into contact with. You should be able to run your hands along their side and feel their ribs. If you can't, they're overweight. People are in denial with their pets, much like themselves. 

Most people underestimate not only their own fatness, but that of their dogs, too. :help:

I would read the links posted--there is good information on this forum.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Kaz said:


> Absolutely none.
> 
> Manfred eats his kibbles when hungry, he does not over eat. Some times when he is too busy playing to eat, I sit him down and feed him with my hands.
> 
> ...



Kaz, with all due respect you have owned how many dogs?? ONE?
If that's the case, then don't recommend free feeding based on your ONE dog's reaction to it.
Most of us have had dogs longer than 5 mos., and owned more than one and seen the results of overfeeding/free feeding. If the OP does not believe (either) there's a problem with it, here you go.

A foster Dachshund in June. This dog had "free access" to food.









In August just before she finally found a home of her own. The dog weighed 25lbs. and should have weighed no more than 12.









Just because one dog won't overeat does not mean they all will moderate themselves. I'd guess that more dogs overeat, when they have free access to food than do not over eat.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

gsdraven said:


> Or they all think you are crazy.
> 
> Really, I think it's so silly the lengths that people go through to "make sure" their dogs don't have guarding issues. I've done absolutely nothing to establish to Raven, Kaiser and most of the various fosters that have been through here that the food is mine and have had zero issues taking even the most high value things away from them.
> 
> Only 1 case where a dog had an unknown guarding issue that I found out when I tried to take something. And any other cases, I took because I knew they had guarding issues and they came here to work it out. All of those dogs were given time to understand that their food is not in constant danger of disappearing and then taught to share.


Totally agree. Thirty dogs, 29 since/over the last 8 years. I specifically leave them alone for as long as they need, then start to work on it. All good.

ETA - broke it down, 14 were baby puppies, 2 with known guarding issues, 6 who had definitely been underfed or had to competition eat to get any food from shelter or siblings and had good reason to have guarded food, the rest from shelters so not well taken care of. 

For the adults, most from shelters, 8 who were thin or clinically emaciated when they came in, including one who had literally had to eat other dogs to survive (he did not kill them, just ate the remains).

Used the leave them alone method and it worked.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Or they all think you are crazy.
> 
> Really, I think it's so silly the lengths that people go through to "make sure" their dogs don't have guarding issues. I've done absolutely nothing to establish to Raven, Kaiser and most of the various fosters that have been through here that the food is mine and have had zero issues taking even the most high value things away from them.
> 
> Only 1 case where a dog had an unknown guarding issue that I found out when I tried to take something. And any other cases, I took because I knew they had guarding issues and they came here to work it out. All of those dogs were given time to understand that their food is not in constant danger of disappearing and then taught to share.


Its certainly possible nothing I did had any effect whatsoever lol. But having seen the effects of a strong working line GSD think he was the leader of the household... I figured I'd just do everything I can to communicate that I'm the bossman.

I also do a 4 minute dance every morning while Jäger watches when I first wake up, and I'm pretty sure this is what has prevented my male from ever biting me.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I also do a 4 minute dance every morning while Jäger watches when I first wake up, and I'm pretty sure this is what has prevented my male from ever biting me.




I think I am afraid to ask.. :rofl:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

hunterisgreat said:


> I also do a 4 minute dance every morning while Jäger watches when I first wake up, and I'm pretty sure this is what has prevented my male from ever biting me.


I hate to tell you, but he submitted it to YouTube. 





****Heaven help me, I can't watch videos on my connection so if a mod or admin could make sure that's appropriate it, I would appreciate it!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> I think I am afraid to ask.. :rofl:


He respects my footwork, and so he yields to my authority. Its how wolves do it


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

RocketDog said:


> Regarding the free-feeding--my first dog free-fed. He was not particularly food-motivated, now I know why.  Free-feeding removes much of that training motivation.


It could be that you were able to free feed BECAUSE he wasn't all that food motivated. Or, as you said, that food wasn't a great motivator because it was always available. Hard to say if it was one or the other or even a little of both. 

Free feeding also takes away a valuable training opportunity - teaching impulse control around food, and one way that you can assert your leadership - by controlling access to valued resources. 

Keefer not only would eat until he exploded, he actually tried to once. He was the most food motivated dog I'd ever met. And then we got Halo. :wild: She brings a whole new meaning to the word!

I'd also be interested in how free feeding would work in a multi-dog household. How do you make sure that one dog doesn't eat all the food and leaving nothing for the other dog/s?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You just keep adding food to the bowl.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Until they both explode?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Go back a page to Kya (the black/tan overweight Doxie). The owners had two dogs and yep, they both looked like that, the other dog is a purebred Brittany spaniel. 
And yep they kept the food bowl full.


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## Oona's_Mom (Jan 13, 2012)

Previous dogs...
Our Brittany would always eat all her food then steal from our Shepherd. She got fat, and the Shepherd was too thin. We had to watch them carefully and pick up the Shepherd's bowl if she did not finish.

If the Shepherd was a single dog, free feeding would have worked for her.

Current day...
My yorkie will pick at her food all day (she could free feed and still be thin). But if I do not pick her her bowl up my current Shepherd would eat the contents.


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## Oona's_Mom (Jan 13, 2012)

Oona is 8 months old. When I first brought her home she would guard her food (w/o much aggression but it had potential to escalate). I trained her every day from her food dish ( in my possession) for 15 minutes and then gave her the bowl. I also was in the room with her when she ate. At first if I approached or touched her she at faster and tried to move the bowl. Now she stops eating and looks at me and wags her tail. 

I can take anything away from her. Not that I do it much, but if I give her a RMB and she is not on her bed and won't listen to the 'go to your bed' cue, I will take it from her and put it on her bed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Oona's_Mom said:


> Oona is 8 months old. When I first brought her home she would guard her food (w/o much aggression but it had potential to escalate). I trained her every day from her food dish ( in my possession) for 15 minutes and then gave her the bowl. I also was in the room with her when she ate. At first if I approached or touched her she at faster and tried to move the bowl. Now she stops eating and looks at me and wags her tail.
> 
> I can take anything away from her. Not that I do it much, but if I give her a RMB and she is not on her bed and won't listen to the 'go to your bed' cue, I will take it from her and put it on her bed.


 
Great work with your pup!


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## KingsCastle (Jul 20, 2010)

codmaster said:


> One more time - an owner or any family member at least MUST be able to take anything: food, a favorite toy, a real bone, anything out of the very mouth of the dog at any time.
> 
> This is true for a number of reasons including the dog's safety as well as the safety of anyone happening to try to pet the dog or walk near him/her when he is eating or chewing.
> 
> ...


I could not have said it any better. I have control over Kings food, toys, play time n worktime without being abusive in any way. But this has come from training (thanks to our trainer Jane) and routine. He is a great dog and he is very happy as are we.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Who cares what the dog's "Instinct" is about food? It is not in their instincts to come when called or to heel either but we make them have that behavior when they live with us as well.


I try to help people understand that dogs don't come out of the womb "knowing" they should share, or "be nice to kids", that's not their instinct. You have to get folks past the point where they are putting human emotions on the dog. But read into it what you will, you manage to do so anyway. Explaining to them that while "on the tit", they will "resource guard" out of sheer survival instincts seems to help explain it to _most _people. But then there's folks like you who like to put out little digs, so two can tango I guess. 



codmaster said:


> I personally cannot believe that anyone could live with a dog that they are afraid to take a toy away from them or even go near them when they are eating from their bowl. But everyone should raise their own dog as they believe. More power to you (or to your dog in some cases).


Again, you're reading _way_ more into my posts than I put out there. My dogs do not resource guard, or they lose the thing they were guarding. They've learned long ago (as puppies) to not guard anything here, beds, toys, treats, food, etc. 
Obviously something worked along the way


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> One more time - an owner or any family member at least MUST be able to take anything: food, a favorite toy, a real bone, anything out of the very mouth of the dog at any time.
> 
> This is true for a number of reasons including the dog's safety as well as the safety of anyone happening to try to pet the dog or walk near him/her when he is eating or chewing.
> 
> ...


I think all the advise given has been so that what you said above can be possible. There are just 2 very different trains of thought about how to go about doing this. I personally like to treat fear based issues with counter-conditioning. I very much think of food guarding as a fear (or insecurity) based issue there are exceptions but extremely rare. And with those true exceptions I think a non-confrontational approach would be best for everyones safety any ways.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Based on the fact so many people come here using the traditional "I've taken the bowl" method, and are failing so miserably, you'd think some people would be happy to have alternative methods other than putting the dog to sleep or getting rid of it in other ways.
I haven't heard one person come here saying "I tried the trade-up method and it failed", it's always the "taking the food bowl" one.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Based on the fact so many people come here using the traditional "I've taken the bowl" method, and are failing so miserably, you'd think some people would be happy to have alternative methods other than putting the dog to sleep or getting rid of it in other ways.
> I haven't heard one person come here saying "I tried the trade-up method and it failed", it's always the "taking the food bowl" one.


 
*Does the tradeup "method" always work?* What if the dog likes what he/she has MORE than the item you want to trade? And I think most folks would admith that the dog may like something more than what yoy have. (I say that because anytime i ask that question of "trade-up" advocates they always answer with "Get a HIGHER VALUE" thing - ain't always possible i don't believe.

And my other questions on this approach would be - *"how long does it take"* to say it works such that any family member can not only walk right next to the dog while they have a favorite toy and/or they are actively eating; but can reach down and take it out of their mouth without ANY negative reaction from the dog.

Just a couple of thoughts and questions. I think one could certainly use a variation of "tradeup" as an additional tool in the box BUT one can NEVER allow a growl/snap from your dog as a reaction that forces the owner to back down and let the dog keep the disputed item. if you do then you have taught your dog that if he doesn't want to do something then he doesn't have to if he threatens you!

*This is not a lesson that I want to teach my dog!* BTW, how many times that the owner has to back off to teach the dog that this is really a cool way to do what he wants depends entirely on the dog - some never others only a very few. 

*My current dog - probably only One - he learns patterns and new behavior very quickly!!!!!*


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Based on the fact so many people come here using the traditional "I've taken the bowl" method, and are failing so miserably, you'd think some people would be happy to have alternative methods other than putting the dog to sleep or getting rid of it in other ways.
> I haven't heard one person come here saying "I tried the trade-up method and it failed", it's always the "taking the food bowl" one.


Have you ever tried to strip the dog off of all it's food and feed it out of your hand while having him work for it, approach?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yep, I've done that, Mrs. K.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong 

If you've never read the above link (which I've posted numerous times), you'd understand it's part of our routine in training dogs 



> Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!
> 
> Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.
> 
> Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Cod - here you go, you may have missed this before. Excellent example of why taking the bowl makes dogs _more_ stressed out, even as a puppy. They become more insecure, not less. 
Trading up - makes them feel like they aren't going to_ lose_ their food. 

Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Have you ever tried to strip the dog off of all it's food and feed it out of your hand while having him work for it, approach?


To me this is something that can be done at the same time but in itself is not going to solve some of the other issues that are going on. Like if the person actually wants to sometimes give there dog something to chew on.

Also this is something I would use in a NILF program. Some dogs that have food issues also have other issues where NILF would be useful. But I also see lots of dogs where they are super respectful to their owners in other ways and this is the only issue they have.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You know where all my puppies, dogs and fosters learn this? Not from food, generally, but when they are trying to eat...kleenex, or rocks, a stick, the squeaker from a toy, someone else's HW pill...and I go diving in. I think if you are around your puppy a lot, inside and outside, you are removing things from their mouths all the time so they learn that (and can learn drop and leave it commands) so that if you do need to go in for a food item, or take something away, they are so used to it...it's no big deal, PLUS they get to enjoy eating with no one bothering them or taking things away. I consider it a win-no obstruction win.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

lots of good advice. not every dog is the same, so there are different methods given.

it's up to you to decide what your dog will or will not react to, and use the appropriate method. i really like the idea of "resetting" your dog.
my foster eats in his crate, he has ever since i got him over a year and a half ago.
the very first time biz came back from eating his food, he has to go by del's crate. Del let out a snarl, and he got yelled at by me for that, and biz was told that he wasn't allowed near Del while he was eating.
I've never had to take their food away, but i have no doubt that i could.

one thing i wanted to comment on was the free feeding.
"Few" dogs can be free fed. others have already stated that the dog needs to know where the food comes from, and it's not the magic food bowl from doggy heaven.

hand feeding is great. you can eventually move it to the bowl, dropping a kibble or two in, when he eats it and backs off wanting more, give huge praise. 
drop a piece of kibble in, make him wait till you say it's ok for him to eat. leave your hand on the bowl and give him the ok. take your time, yes it's a lot of work but they'll soon learn to relax.
just please, don't free feed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh, it's YOU! 

I agree. Don't free feed to "solve" this issue as it creates whole new ones.
Quite honestly, we also feed fosters in their crates. If we do need to work on a food aggression problem we often hand feed, sometimes doing the trade up or a combination as you suggested. 
I don't consider food aggression high on my list of problems dogs can have. It does not matter one whit to me if I can take their food, why should I? 
I do have a problem with them taking mine however 
I guess you might say I am food aggressive myself!


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

> *Does the tradeup "method" always work?* What if the dog likes what he/she has MORE than the item you want to trade? And I think most folks would admith that the dog may like something more than what yoy have. (I say that because anytime i ask that question of "trade-up" advocates they always answer with "Get a HIGHER VALUE" thing - ain't always possible i don't believe.
> 
> And my other questions on this approach would be - *"how long does it take"* to say it works such that any family member can not only walk right next to the dog while they have a favorite toy and/or they are actively eating; but can reach down and take it out of their mouth without ANY negative reaction from the dog.


I don't really like to call it the trade up method because that is just a part of it and only done at a certain point in the rehabilitation. I look at it the same way I would look at counter conditioning a fearful dog to other dogs. Yes it probably will take longer than other methods but I like that it changes the way the dog views the situation. Also keep in mind this is specifically for dealing with dogs who have behaviour issues not just an everyday life type of thing for dogs who do not have these issues. 




> Just a couple of thoughts and questions. I think one could certainly use a variation of "tradeup" as an additional tool in the box BUT one can NEVER allow a growl/snap from your dog as a reaction that forces the owner to back down and let the dog keep the disputed item. if you do then you have taught your dog that if he doesn't want to do something then he doesn't have to if he threatens you!
> *This is not a lesson that I want to teach my dog!* BTW, how many times that the owner has to back off to teach the dog that this is really a cool way to do what he wants depends entirely on the dog - some never others only a very few.
> 
> *My current dog - probably only One - he learns patterns and new behavior very quickly!!!!!*



I deal with people who have spent years playing this game with their dogs. What do you think would happen if all of a sudden they decide this time they are gonna call the dogs bluff and try to take the item anyway. The dog has been gaining more and more confidence that he was in control and his people are scared of him. It is very likely he will try to bite. Most people who come to trainers with these issues are scared of their dogs so a non-confrontational approach is usually best for them. The worst thing as a trainer is to recommend something to a client that will put them at risk of getting bite if they are not able to handle the situation.

In counter conditioning you stay outside of the dogs threshold so the above never occurs. The link posted near the first page was really good at explaining the step by step. Yes it is a bit of a pain and lots of work always having to manage the dogs environment during the rehab process but I find it is worth it.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You know where all my puppies, dogs and fosters learn this? Not from food, generally, but when they are trying to eat...kleenex, or rocks, a stick, the squeaker from a toy, someone else's HW pill...and I go diving in. I think if you are around your puppy a lot, inside and outside, you are removing things from their mouths all the time so they learn that (and can learn drop and leave it commands) so that if you do need to go in for a food item, or take something away, they are so used to it...it's no big deal, PLUS they get to enjoy eating with no one bothering them or taking things away. I consider it a win-no obstruction win.


Totally agree and so relevant to so many things other than food issues. I get many people in puppy class who have created possession issues with their puppies by chasing them trying to take things out of their mouth every 5 seconds. I teach them how to get there pup to bring them things instead of running away.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I hate to tell you, but he submitted it to YouTube.
> Cubby dances to Single Ladies by Beyonce - YouTube
> 
> ****Heaven help me, I can't watch videos on my connection so if a mod or admin could make sure that's appropriate it, I would appreciate it!


Define "appropriate". :laugh:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> *Does the tradeup "method" always work?* What if the dog likes what he/she has MORE than the item you want to trade? And I think most folks would admith that the dog may like something more than what yoy have. (I say that because anytime i ask that question of "trade-up" advocates they always answer with "Get a HIGHER VALUE" thing - ain't always possible i don't believe.


I think what's confusing is that the "tradeup method" is really misleading. The goal should be to teach your dog to give up whatever they have(drop, leave it or whatever command you use) which can be, at least initially), by trading low value items for higher ones. The point is that when they have higher items, you are telling them to "drop" or "leave it" and they just do it not trying to find something even HIGHER.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when my dog was a pup i would feed him and while
he was eating i would pet him a little. sometimes
i would touch his mouth. when i touched his food
a lot of the times i would add a peice of fish, chicken
pork or beef. i touched him, straddled him or touched
his food almost everytime i fed him. my pup was 9 weeks old
we he came home. my dog is 4.5 yrs old and you can handle
his food while he's eating. once he learned "leave it",
"drop it" or "bring it here" i can take anything from him.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good post Bismarck.....all dogs are different, and different methods work better than others, depending on the dog....a dog trainer would know that....many dog owners/handlers only think their way is right. There is a difference between trainers and owners, usually in the working knowledge of different tools in the toolbox and the different types of dogs. Most dog trainers have dealt with many many different type of levels of dogs and severity of problem. Most owners/handlers have very limited contact with the wide myriad of personalities and extremes of this breed. Therefore, often the owner/handler's way works very well for them, but when applied by someone else with a different type dog is not so effective. The OP has been given some good advice, choose the one that works best for you and your dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes counterconditioning would be more accurate. Working under the dog's threshold is integral. Did anyone even watch the vid to see the 180 the puppy did?? 
Before, stiff and fearful body language, after, relaxed and happy she came by the bowl.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> when my dog was a pup i would feed him and while
> he was eating i would pet him a little. sometimes
> i would touch his mouth. when i touched his food
> a lot of the times i would add a peice of fish, chicken
> ...


One thing to be aware of is that this was done with a dog with no food aggression issues to begin with. The OP's dog does have food aggression issues. I would not recommend straddling a dog with food aggression or touching its teeth


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Clyde said:


> One thing to be aware of is that this was done with a dog with no food aggression issues to begin with. The OP's dog does have food aggression issues. *I would not recommend straddling a dog with food aggression* or touching its teeth


Unless you really want to lose something errr...important...
:crazy:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdraven said:


> I think what's confusing is that the "tradeup method" is really misleading. The goal should be to teach your dog to give up whatever they have(drop, leave it or whatever command you use) which can be, at least initially), by trading low value items for higher ones. The point is that when they have higher items, you are telling them to "drop" or "leave it" and they just do it not trying to find something even HIGHER.


Several people have tried many times to explain that this is simply a _training method_ not how you treat your dog for the rest of its life, but that message is just not sinking in, hence the SAME questions over and over and over again. Trade-up advocates _don't_ always say that you need to keep coming up with higher and higher value items, but once people get an idea stuck in their head, they apparently lose the ability to hear anything that might contradict what they think they know. 

Pretty hard to have a reasonable conversation when things being said are constantly misrepresented and twisted into something completely different. :shrug:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I've posted a video which shows how it's done, and people won't even watch or try to understand it, either. 
Good gosh there's tons of them on Youtube if you search for "dog food aggression" or "dog resource guarding". 
It's still the same thing - "you're rewarding the dog for guarding".


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

Lots of good advice and I did watch all the videos. I'm going to see what works best for Kaiser and hopefully I will have some good update on the situation soon.


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