# 13wks- pretty sure she is trying to kill me



## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Prepare for a wall of text. My wife and I really need some help with several things with our 13 week old female working line GSD.

We've hired a local trainer who does shutzhund with her GSDs and occasionally breeds to help us but, there are some things I just don't think are getting sorted out for some reason. The trainer does say she is a very smart girl, who picks things up very quickly and I sometimes wonder if she isn't a bit too much dog for the trainer never mind my wife and I.

I'll list the issues in order of importance to me.

1. She bites... A LOT AND HARD. I've got cuts all over my hands as does my wife and today she drew blood from my mom who was doing me a favor and letting the dog out while I was at work and my wife who works from home is out of town.

I understand with any puppy and especially GSDs there will be chewing, playful mouthing and that she is probably teething right now. What I'm talking about is for a few hours a day she wants to do nothing but bite anyone or anything around except for what she is supposed to and I'm not sure how to address it. I've tried the methods detailed here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/134407-teaching-bite-inhibition.html

Pulling away and making an "ouch" noise just makes her look at you, mouth more softly for a little bit and then when you start to relax put the chomp on you. 

When trying to redirect to a toy/chewy/etc... she drops it and bites your hands. When stopping play and walking away she attacks your feet or pants. We did this for the first two weeks with no real improvements. We started to use higher value chews like Bully sticks and pig snouts and saw some improvements initially but, she seemed to get over them pretty quick as well.

We've since tried several different methods recommended by either the breeder, trainer or the Monks of New Skete book I've read. Everything from fingers down her throat, hand under chin other hand behind head until settles, Lifting by scruff while supporting bottom or ribs until settles, lifting front legs off ground with leash and counting to 3... She seems to look at pretty much all of these as an escalation that she should then answer with more biting. :help:

2. Exercise/Walking on a lead, I'm sure this is where a lot of the problem above comes from. I don't think she is getting enough exercise. That being said it's not from a lack of effort on our part. Her and I will play fetch almost all evening and she is great at it. Loves it, doesn't fight to hold on the toy, brings it right back, everything is good. 

She will walk on her lead like a champ if it's my wife and I together. However, if it is just one of us trying to walk her she wants nothing to do with it. She won't go past the driveway without serious encouragement, she just sits and looks back to the house. If I kneel down and call her she will come to me but, that is the extent of her progress. I walk 10' forward and repeat the kneeling/calling. I try to walk her when I get up, my wife tries at least 3 times during the day and the only time we really have much luck is when I get home in the evening and we can all go together. 

She wears her collar and leash around the house most of the day so she is is used to the sensation of a collar and leash. What is the deal here?

She will also try to carry her leash in her mouth. I'm not sure how to stop this. I've tried the obvious like gently pulling it out her mouth and saying "drop it" like we do in fetch to putting some bitter apple on it, it doesn't seem to phase her in the least.

3. Jumping on people and furniture. I'll admit we totally set her up for failure on the furniture thing. In the first few days when she wasn't sleeping through the night or used to her crate we would put her on the couch with us so, we could catch a nap without worrying where she was or .

This has now evolved into "I will get on any of the furniture whenever I **** well please". When she is in "seek and destroy" mode she runs laps like a lunatic around the living room then leaps onto the couch or chair, possibly from one to the other and is now trying to scale the back of the couch to get onto the sofa table.

I generally try to get a hold of her lead before the she makes the leap up and say "no" or "off" if she is already up there but, it has made no difference. I'm not sure what to do here as in the long term I don't mind her being on the furniture when invited but, she is too young to get that notion yet.

Thanks in advance.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Wow, you have really got your hands full :wild: Couple of ideas: 1. for the biting - your voice has be stern, say "sharply no, mine" and then offer the toy and say real happy like "this is yours" when she takes it praise her.  It helps to have toys all over the house. Also get a flit pole so she can have something to chase and bite instead of you. 
2. for the tugging on the leash on walks - this is excitement - you can use an extender leash as that discourages the tugging game or again redirect - carry a ball or toy - and do the same thing - the leash is yours, the toy is hers.
3. for the walking with only 1 of you - start out, then before she can stop, turn in a circle but don't go back to the house - just go in a complete circle and again head out. Also use the ball - throw it a little way and let her get it. Don't coax her - just walk , turn in circles, and distract with the ball. Also keep it short don't try to go to far.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I really feel for you, the land shark phase was very hard. Nothing worked for us except time. Hope she stops when she gets older, as Hans did. 
He doesn't do any more gatoring, but I still have the scars.
I wouldn't push her too hard to get too far away from the house right now. Make walks fun, take a toy with you, and if she's too scared to go out into the big world there's plenty of time for that. Plus, she still needs to have her vaccinations done.
I highly recommend an expen. I don't know what we would've done without ours. It helps them have a place where they can calm down, they can't get out of it and it teaches them to settle in the house. Hans still uses his as his chillout spot, and we don't use the crate anymore because he doesn't try to get out of his ex-pen. That is his spot and he likes it.
Also, I can always put him in there and I don't have to worry about turning my back. He can't get himself in trouble or ingest something bad for him if he is in his expen with an elk antler.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I had the same issue with Grim. I also still have scars all over my ankles and arms. Time, time, time. Keep trying to re-direct. I had to do some serious scruffing with a stern "NO!" at one point because it was so out of control. Do you have a fenced yard? If so, for now just wear her out in the yard. Walks we did a little at a time, with me kneeling down with treats to get him to come forward. It was a slow process. What finally helped was taking our other dogs out at the same time. He wanted to follow them. Others had also said that driving the pup away from home to walk worked. If you can't do that... I'd suggest maybe picking the pup up and walking a ways from the house then putting her down to walk. If shots aren't done yet... then wait for that. Are you getting her out of the house at all? Grim still grabs and carries his leash at times. That's a battle we're not going to have right now. Let me tell you, you're going to have to pick your battles. Maybe the furniture battle isn't one you want to have right now, either. It's up to you. With this kind of pup, you have to decide what things you're going to work on. I found that the more restrictions you try to place, the more they tend to not want to get with the program. Grim was given a lot of latitude for a long time. I wanted him to just be a pup while I could. Good luck to you! I'd really suggest finding a trainer that has lots of shepherd experience that you're comfortable with. I'm not sure that your breeder placed the 'right' pup with you... but if you're OK with her, then just find a good trainer.

Oh, and you must post pics.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I still have shirts with holes in them from when the former fuzzygator would jump and bite me repeatedly. He would also love to go for my rear end 

I had scratches and bruises everywhere. I, too, scruffed him and got firm with him a few times, and although he looked scared when I did it, moments later he recovered and would be at it again. :crazy:

When I see him now, so calm and affectionate and with his tail always wagging, it's tough to believe this is the same dog. I do think most grow out of this behavior, if provided with good leadership and training. 

Oh, and for jumping-- learn to read her body language and step on her leash as she gets ready to jump. The jumping has to stop now, before she becomes a jumping moose.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks everyone. It's just mentally taxing to deal with. Both my wife and I feel like we got this smart well bred dog so, it must be something we aren't doing right. Then it's so easy to get conflicting advice and really spin yourself out.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the fact that the "ouch" works for a while says that she understands. She's just a baby and gets excited and goes back to chomping. Give her time and keep at it.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

We have all been through that land shark stage. It hurts! You have gotten a lot of good suggestions. I particularly like redirecting with a ball or tug and try to wear the pup out with lots of play. Once a day isn't enough for pups. Like everyone else mentioned wait for the shots to take her a lot of places but do play a lot. A tired pup is a good pup. She sounds really smart. You might want to try hiding things (in easy places to find at first) for her to find. I used to show Pyrate what I wanted him to find, then put him in a down while I hid it. Then the command to find would send him off to find it. At first I left the item in clear view so he could find it easily in the yard, then I gradually made it harder by hiding it behind things. If you do this gradually it's fun for the pup and may even make them like searching for things in the future. Lots of praise when they find the item and more play as well.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I'd like to add give her something to chew that will keep her busy. I like frozen marrow bones, it seems to not only help with the chewing but also helps their ears stand faster.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

pyratemom said:


> We have all been through that land shark stage. It hurts! You have gotten a lot of good suggestions. I particularly like redirecting with a ball or tug and try to wear the pup out with lots of play. Once a day isn't enough for pups. Like everyone else mentioned wait for the shots to take her a lot of places but do play a lot. A tired pup is a good pup. She sounds really smart. You might want to try hiding things (in easy places to find at first) for her to find. I used to show Pyrate what I wanted him to find, then put him in a down while I hid it. Then the command to find would send him off to find it. At first I left the item in clear view so he could find it easily in the yard, then I gradually made it harder by hiding it behind things. If you do this gradually it's fun for the pup and may even make them like searching for things in the future. Lots of praise when they find the item and more play as well.


I understand once a day isn't enough for exercise. If she would walk with just one of us she'd be going for around 5 walks a day plus play time.

We have noticed if we carry her up a few streets to somewhere that she can't see the house she will walk better and if I take her to Lowe's she'll walk pretty well so, I'll try taking her somewhere besides our neighborhood and see how that goes.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Like the others I too have scars from the land shark phase. Keep doing what your doing. They grow out of it.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

hotrod2448 said:


> 1. She bites... A LOT AND HARD.


Haha, first thing that our breeder told us: "If you don't have scars and marks all over your arms... YOU ARE NOT playing with your puppy enough!" I love this, can't wait for my landshark! 

Like owning a kitten was ever "scratch free".... 

Anyways, my brothers puppy was was a shark for a few months... really bad, no cuddling, could not touch his head, pet him at all. They tried EVERYTHING from redirecting to bitter spray on their hands and no luck. Than one day.. He just stopped and became a licker, now he lick attacks people. 

This biting thing does not scare me. My brothers baby also tries to bite the cat, haha so it sounds like animals and human alike... that's how they play and explore. 

As for the furniture, one thing that worked is they used a baby gate to isolate the dog in one room, kitchen etc if they were busy around the house or had guests. The dog learned to respect the gate. So they would take that gate and set it on the sofa... The dog did not jump up thinking that's a barrier... They started doing this with everything dog could not have or where dog could not go... Now the dog is a year and a half and there is no more crate or gate and everything is working out great for them. I am sure everyone dog is different and you just need to find that something that works, but 13 weeks is very young. =)


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

hotrod2448 said:


> I understand once a day isn't enough for exercise. If she would walk with just one of us she'd be going for around 5 walks a day plus play time.
> 
> We have noticed if we carry her up a few streets to somewhere that she can't see the house she will walk better and if I take her to Lowe's she'll walk pretty well so, I'll try taking her somewhere besides our neighborhood and see how that goes.


Lowes is a great place to take her. Lots of different sounds and sights. I take all my dogs to the local Home Depot (when I used to teach class that is). So start out carrying her away from the house and gradually try treating her a little at a time to encourage her to go along with you straight from the house, even if at first you don't leave the driveway, walk in circles etc at the end of the driveway if you have to at first, but carrying her to a different place for exercise is a good start. You and your wife both should be teaching her the same way so she wants to go with both of you.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

For play time, to help wear her out you could try to fashion your own flirt pole, or take a toy and tie it on a soft rope to pull around the house. 

Just remember that she has tiny baby teeth so you don't want her to engage with an all out tug of war.

I love playing with puppets. It's been my experiance it helps the pup focus on the toy and not the hand.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Time will help with a lot of this, as others have said.

Also, never reward biting. Teach the pup that biting ENDS play and loses him your attention ( for a few minutes). 

Just keep redirecting and be consistent. 

As for the bouncing onto the furniture . . .keep working on the command "Off." I won't tell you that my dogs don't get on the furniture when I am not home, but they have learned that they have to be invited to come up when I am here, lol. 

I used to come home to find my dog Peanut up in the carpeted cat tree with my two cats looking out the window at squirrels. She was raised by two spoiled cats and THEY walked up on the furniture so she did as well. She eventually learned to ask me before jumping up, but I think she always resented having that rule when the cats don't!


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## Fynn&Vandy (Dec 10, 2012)

HOLY CRAP! I dealt with so much of this. Our puppy still does some of this. I tried the "ouch" thing. It's always worked for me, except with Vandy. She bit so hard during play time and, for treats. I have literally bled so much for this puppy. 

It got to a point where I couldn't take it anymore. I did not get aggressive with her but, I did take a tougher approach. If she bit any part of me or my clothing I'd harshly say "too much!" and, GENTLY hold her mouth closed and, bring her face down to the ground. I never did this in a rough way but, I was firm. I held her mouth closed for 5-10 seconds. Long enough to know I was serious but, not long enough to confuse her. Then Id move on and, play with her toys. I did this every time in exactly the same way. 
Now after about three or four weeks of this she still bites but, very very gently. No more cuts. Now I just say "too much." When I do this she stops and, starts licking instead, which we praise her for. As far as treats go I'd put them in my closed had and, let her smell/lick at it. If she bit I'd do the same thing as before and, once she was just nuzzling my hand I'd open it and, let her take it gently. I haven't gotten a good bite from her in a very very long time. 

I agree with a previous response- the furniture battle totally not worth it right now. I'm with you though on how she is with guests. I use the same command all the time for when she is doing something I don't like. "No ma'am!" I always use it while correcting the behavior. If she's chewing a shoe I say the command and, then give her a toy etc. Now she knows what it means now and, she will stop and, look at me. Its redundant honestly but, worth it.

Our puppy also did/still does the stopping on the leash. She'll just stop, sit or lay down and, stare at me. DRIVE ME NUTS. She doesn't do this if we're walking both dogs at the same time. She'll follow Fynn into a fire I swear. However, Fynn isn't walking her is he? After I realized that was the situation I hate to admit it but, I stopped trying to coax her into it. I just kept walking. Let me be clear I did this slowly. I didn't jog along hahaha! Stay on the grass so if you tug her along for a couple feet she's just sort of rolling in grass but, she's not going to like it at all and, will quickly cave. Vandy sure did. She did find more devious ways to be a pain on the walk though so we borrowed a choker from a friend, she immediately got what was up and, is an angel on walks. We only used it for three or four days. I dont suggest pulling her in ANYWAY if she's got the choker on. Just let her place the pressure on the choker. She will get it and, decide she doesn't want to do that to herself. I used to have to constantly pull her and, now I can carry leash with my pinkie if I want to. 

This is the first puppy I've had to use this sort of firm training but, she's very smart and, learned very quickly. She's still a puppy and, doing lots of puppy stuff but, we don't feel overwhelmed like we were. Anyway, good luck!


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Here is the little monster. The name is proving to be fitting. It definitely helps that she is adorable.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/199961-meet-bruennhilde.html


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm just raising my first pup, so I may or may not be doing things right, but what's worked for us and the furniture is to just get up and leave the room. My pup jumps on the furniture for attention. Using "off" became a game for him. Up, off, up, off. Great fun! Now, we use the worst punishment (in his eyes) which is ignoring him. He jumps up, we leave. It sucks when you are trying to watch a tv show, but after a while I am hoping it just won't be worth it to him. He jumps right off when we leave the room and follows us, so we just bring him back to the living room and put him on his bed or mat and give him lots of love there to reinforce that he gets loves there and not the sofa. 

Good luck with your shark. I'm no help there. My pups teething and biting even more now than when he was younger. Ugh.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

She is CUTE!  

Sunflowers- I'm jealous that Hans looked afraid when you scruffed him. Grim just came back at me barking and snarling the first time, LOL!  That's when I had to get serious about our first "head butting". He never looked afraid but he did stop and think about it for a minute. I'm glad he never got into biting me on the rear!  

OP- IMO, if you have a pup that you've seen close their eyes, you're in GREAT shape!


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## KB007 (Aug 27, 2003)

hotrod2448 said:


> Here is the little monster. The name is proving to be fitting. It definitely helps that she is adorable.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/199961-meet-bruennhilde.html


The 4th picture!!! OMG!!! There is NO way that puppy is not a complete angel :angel:


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## Staci (Jan 5, 2013)

I will say in advance that I didn't read through every post.

Have you ever heard of a gentle leader dog collar? It almost looks like a horse harness. They work wonders!! The vet doing our obidence classes recommend them. He told us that at a training in vegas, they brought in several very vicious and crazy dogs from a shelter.. tons of barking etc.. Took them a bit to get the gentle leader on them, but almost instantly all unwanted behavior stopped.. Had a group of dogs laying on the ground no longer barking. We had our dogs fitted with them and the do work great. They have a little thing that goes over the muzzle kind of at what we would call the bridge of your nose.. and hooks behind the ears.. I will include a link 



it teaches them that you are the pack leader.

Something to check into.. We had them fitted by the vet that sold them so that we would know they were tight enough in the right places.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

She is a herding dog. When just one of you tries to take her for a walk she knows part of her HERD is missing. Seriously. That's why she doesn't want to leave.

When it's just a one-on-one walk I would toss her in the car, drive to a great park or something and walk there. As she matures she will begin to realize that walks can take place without the entire pack.

As for the biting - she doesn't just want to play ... she wants to play *WITH* you. Tug is a great game to play - even with puppies and their puppy teeth. Just be sure not to pull on the tug - just hold onto it. Let her do all the tugging and such.

When puppies play and one gets to rough the other puppies don't yell "Ouch!". They go "IPE!" Like the word ripe without the R. Try that next time she bites too hard. Make it loud and high pitched (like a puppy) and then ignore her for a few minutes. That's exactly what her littermates would do.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Staci said:


> it teaches them that you are the pack leader.


People, through raising the dog, socializing it and training it teaches a dog that you're the leader. NOT a piece of training equipment. Sorry, but that just rubbed me the wrong way. There are some dogs that the 'gentle leader' does well with, I'm sure. IMO, that contraption doesn't belong on a GSD. I personally would find it humiliating to the dog to have to wear something like that, but that's JMO.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

What a difference 24 hours makes. She was a complete angel yesterday. I really think her teeth have been bothering her a lot lately as her ears have been down for a few days. Yesterday they were back up and she was the sweetest she's been in quite a while.

I also upped her food a bit as she's hit a growth spurt and was starting to thin out so maybe that makes a difference.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

hotrod2448 said:


> What a difference 24 hours makes. She was a complete angel yesterday. I really think her teeth have been bothering her a lot lately as her ears have been down for a few days. Yesterday they were back up and she was the sweetest she's been in quite a while.
> 
> I also upped her food a bit as she's hit a growth spurt and was starting to thin out so maybe that makes a difference.


Those teeth coming in are a horrible time for pups. I had tons of ice, specific chew toys we would keep in the freezer for Kaylee. I made sure to have enough frozen items to rotate different things to help with the teething.


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## Justaguy (Nov 20, 2012)

I really feel for you. Fortunately for me my GSD rarely play bites to begin with. Maybe its because I got him when he was 5 months old. Patience I guess. Good luck!


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## Fynn&Vandy (Dec 10, 2012)

Another thing that helps our little maniac is keeping her tired. Whether it's at the park, in the back yard or whatever, run with her. If she doesn't want to go on walks alone take her as far as she will go then let your wife start jogging by. She'll probably want to tag along and, you all can have a nice little family jog haha! Tired puppies are happy puppies and, less insane hahaha! Glad you had a peaceful day!


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## sonya (Jan 28, 2013)

I am glad I read this!! Sounds JUST like ours! She loves biting us, and chews on everything. Plus she eats every little thing she finds on the floor or in the yard. 
She's fine as long as you keep giving her treats but as soon as my hand is empty ( she can tell even if my hand is CLOSED) , she chomps down hard. She is a very smart dog, learned to sit and wait for the treat in about 2 minutes, but she's also learned that if I run out of treats, there is no longer a reason to sit and not bite. 

She also does not want to leave the property! As soon as we are at the end of the driveway, the tough mean biting machine turns into a whimpering little girl that wants to be picked up!!

We have no problem with her on the furniture. We have another dog ( a Shihtzu ) that is allowed to sit on the couch. He protects his couch and barks at her if she even puts her little paws up there. It's funny how she respects another very small dog, but not her humans  

Going to puppy training class in a few weeks. She is 10 weeks at the moment


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

sonya said:


> *She also does not want to leave the property! *As soon as we are at the end of the driveway, the tough mean biting machine turns into a whimpering little girl that wants to be picked up!!


None of my GSD's pups like to be walked off my property on a leash. 

But they all got picked up to go for car rides and got tons of exercise when we arrived at our new fun location and exited the vehicle. When my body is 'home' they want to stay with me. When my house is 'home' they want to stay near it. So I drive away from the house and become my puppy's safe place.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

sonya said:


> *She also does not want to leave the property! *As soon as we are at the end of the driveway, the tough mean biting machine turns into a whimpering little girl that wants to be picked up!!


Yep... I know what this is about. Once I hit a certain spot about a block away, Kira would start biting on the leash trying to stop me. If that didn't work she would run in front of me and jump up until I turned around. As soon as we were heading back home she was a happy puppy. It took time and some yummy treats to coax here further out.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

*Agree with everything you just have said!*

That's exactly what her littermates would do.[It is also advisable to teach her at home. It could be great if she were a food stimulated character. Don't give her something for nothing, ask her to do something prior to her meal, a few commands. Ask her to bark, for instance./QUOTE]


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Frozen wash clothes (just watch her with them) or other frozen things may help her with teething. Grim went through a TON of bully sticks during that time, because he could easily adjust them to where in his mouth he needed to chew.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, I'm hoping we've turned a corner with her. She's been so much better about the nipping the last few days. There was a little regression for a few days with my wife when she got back from Italy. I'm willing to trade that she's discovered how to unroll the toilet paper for her stopping about 90% of the nipping.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

At this point I don't have much of a problem controlling her nipping me. Usually it's just a tug on the leash, a stern "No!" and then an offer of a bully stick.

The big problem now is with my wife. She does most of the training and Brunie is very on point with her when training. When not training however, it seems she is trying to assert her place above my wife in the pecking order. It is especially bad when I leave the house or room. 

I've tried telling my wife she needs to be more confident when dealing with the dog. All it takes is one lunge from the dog toward her hands and through habit, survival instinct or what ever you want to call it they go up like she's signalling surrender. Then when she tries to correct Brunie's behavior the dog has learned all she has to do is go after her again and the wife will pull back. I'm having a really hard time convincing her she needs to put herself out there to potentially get nipped a few times show Brunie she is in charge and to stop this problem long term. Any suggestions?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

If you have a trainer in your area who will do home visits, that would be helpful. My concern is that your wife is frightened of a puppy who charges at her, how will she be able to cope as the puppy gets bigger and becomes an adult. The puppy already knows this and has taken advantage. I hate to say this, but if I were you, I would consider rehoming the pup. The pup really sounds like too much dog and would do better in a working home. I also don't think it is fair to your wife to be in this situation and have to live with a puppy who will grow into a powerful dog that she is afraid of.


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## Us2Folk (Aug 9, 2007)

Hi Hotrod, I've read though your posts and am 100% confident that your puppy is in Stage 4 of puppy development. Here is a great link: I hope it's helpful. Everyone is right on when they say "give it time". Puppy Development: Stage 4 | Cesar Millan


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

hotrod2448 said:


> At this point I don't have much of a problem controlling her nipping me. Usually it's just a tug on the leash, a stern "No!" and then an offer of a bully stick.
> 
> The big problem now is with my wife. She does most of the training and Brunie is very on point with her when training. When not training however, it seems she is trying to assert her place above my wife in the pecking order. It is especially bad when I leave the house or room.
> 
> I've tried telling my wife she needs to be more confident when dealing with the dog. All it takes is one lunge from the dog toward her hands and through habit, survival instinct or what ever you want to call it they go up like she's signalling surrender. Then when she tries to correct Brunie's behavior the dog has learned all she has to do is go after her again and the wife will pull back. I'm having a really hard time convincing her she needs to put herself out there to potentially get nipped a few times show Brunie she is in charge and to stop this problem long term. Any suggestions?


My suggestion is walk your wife through what to do and what not to do. If she can't or won't, then YOU need to take over the training. That means that YOU correct for her for pulling this stuff with your wife. If you're not there, the dog is in her crate. I noticed my wife wasn't sitting on the sofa in the evening. Instead, she was standing. I asked her 'why'. She said that each time she sits down, my Pug jumps in her lap and starts messing with Grim, and they start play fighting on her. I said so kick the Pug off the sofa!! :crazy: She's not the best at 'taking control' either. So I feel your pain. I don't think re-homing is the answer. I think you need to have a heart to heart with your wife, and if she can't get on board, then you need to step up since the pup has more respect for you.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Jag said:


> My suggestion is walk your wife through what to do and what not to do. If she can't or won't, then YOU need to take over the training. That means that YOU correct for her for pulling this stuff with your wife. If you're not there, the dog is in her crate. I noticed my wife wasn't sitting on the sofa in the evening. Instead, she was standing. I asked her 'why'. She said that each time she sits down, my Pug jumps in her lap and starts messing with Grim, and they start play fighting on her. I said so kick the Pug off the sofa!! :crazy: She's not the best at 'taking control' either. So I feel your pain. I don't think re-homing is the answer. I think you need to have a heart to heart with your wife, and if she can't get on board, then you need to step up since the pup has more respect for you.


First off, re-homing is not even an option on the table. We knew this would be a trying time and we'll get through it.

What I was saying was that it is odd that the dog can recognize when it is training time and see the wife as an authority figure but, once the formal training session ends it's time to compete for position. This tells me that when the wife has had instruction from a professional she can have the confidence required to get the job done.

The pup can't be in the crate the entire time I'm gone. It just wouldn't be fair to her. I work on a race team and this time of the year I'm at work from about 6AM to 6PM 6 days a week at a minimum. my wife has already pointed the incredibly poor timing of having a puppy coinciding with this time of the year.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Just to keep this up to date, we are making good progress but, there are still several times a day when our little pup seems to lose her freakin' mind and not be able to control herself at all. It's all fairly standard puppy behavior though: Running, jumping, chewing, barking, zero focus, and of course biting. They always seem to start about 30 minutes after she eats which makes sense I guess.

We have decided to send her to a board and train program that our breeder recommended. It's apparent she is very smart and can learn very quickly but, we are just having a hard time getting some things established. She picked up "such" in all of about 20 minutes but still seems to have no concept of "down" or "off". We feel this isn't an issue with her but, more with us and the weakest link right now is our schedules and lack of experience in training.

She ships out at the beginning of March. It's a husband and wife team that went to the same training school as our breeder. I spoke to the wife for about 30 minutes on the phone and felt really good about it. She'll be there for 2 weeks, live in their house with their shepherds. Amy was also aware of her young age and was taking that into consideration with the training program. She warned that she may require some refresher classes later down the line which was comforting as I've heard starting too young can be bad. 

I also like that she was honest with what to expect out of the program, in stating that she cannot take a puppy and in 2 weeks return it as a dog that will not continue to need work, it's just not possible. We don't mind putting the work in at all but, we just don't have the knowledge to it right now and our current trainer doesn't seem to be able to help us with a lot of the issues we are having so... fingers crossed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Google FRAP dog. I never stop a good FRAP! I yell CRAZZEEEEEEEEEE! You Are CRAZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEE! and get out of the way! :blush: 

Go to classes with her! It's much more fun, better for all involved.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am also one who isn't thrilled with send away training..She is a puppy, you know that, why spend money on a board & train for a puppy who probably has the attention span of a gnat? 

She's going to come back probably as much a puppy as she went. She will maybe listen to her new 'trainers', but I find alot of these dogs come back and DON"T listen to their owners!

Thats why I think it's soooo important to train WITH your dog, so YOU learn as she learns.. Any way you can go to this trainer and train WITH the dog??


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I too think you'd be much better off getting trained at the same time was your pup 

Sending her off by herself to board at the trainers is a bit like sending your car to the mechanic to get it turned into a highly tuned race car - yet you still don't have a license to drive the car 

Both you and most defiantly your wife need to learn at the the she time as the puppy  That will strengthen your bond way more than sending her off for someone else to do that !


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Dog trainers are really human trainers.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Google FRAP dog. I never stop a good FRAP! I yell CRAZZEEEEEEEEEE! You Are CRAZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEE! and get out of the way! :blush:


LOL, never knew there was a real name for it, we always called it the zoomies.


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## Lalaland (Dec 19, 2012)

Haha that reminds me of mine!
I was going insane with all the bites on my arms, we also tried everything.. what DID ork for us ( i´m not too proud of it but it was the only way.. maya was a bite addict) was putting a few small stones in a coke can, whenever maya turned to nibble on my hand i would shake the can to make a loud sound, that would scare her and she would stop. Now she won´t bite usanymore. Also for the teething ( so that she doesn´t destroy everything. I got an old cloth, tied it at both ends, and would wet it with cold water, she would entertain herself with it and forget the rest..

For your walks.. did you try bringing some reats with you to encourage her to walk?

and as for jumping, we used the can method for that as well, she doesn´t jump up on us, and furniture, we just don´t allow her and push her off every time she tries

hope it helps =]


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I am also one who isn't thrilled with send away training..She is a puppy, you know that, why spend money on a board & train for a puppy who probably has the attention span of a gnat?
> 
> She's going to come back probably as much a puppy as she went. She will maybe listen to her new 'trainers', but I find alot of these dogs come back and DON"T listen to their owners!
> 
> Thats why I think it's soooo important to train WITH your dog, so YOU learn as she learns.. Any way you can go to this trainer and train WITH the dog??


The main problem is right now my work schedule doesn't allow me to be at home much. Pretty much 12 hours days 6 days a week right now. My wife is also travelling more than we expected. We are hoping things will settle down by mid march.

My wife is having a hard time managing her when she is home. It's not fun coming home from your own stress filled 12 hour day to a wife that is pissed off, way behind on her work and at her wits end everyday. While this solution isn't ideal, we certainly would love to be able to go to class and learn with her, we feel it's the best solution we have to get her good training and socialization right now.

What makes me feel good about these people is 
A. Dennis recommended them. He went to school with them and speaks highly of them. I trust him to know what his dogs need.
B. Speaking to them they even pointed out that she wil be very close to the minimum age they accept and were pretty honest about what we should expect from this. Which was a dog that will need continuing training and will still a puppy but, will respond better through training both her and us.

The good thing is with this "lifetime" package we will be able to attend group classes afterward to hopefully make up for what we miss out on and get our education. It's not one of these deals where they just drop the dog off and say "She's trained. Good luck". They also have a mandatory class for us at the end of the board and train program.


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Google FRAP dog. I never stop a good FRAP! I yell CRAZZEEEEEEEEEE! You Are CRAZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEE! and get out of the way! :blush:
> 
> Go to classes with her! It's much more fun, better for all involved.


Thanks for the info, that is exactly what it is. Her's seem to coincide with meal time but last much longer than 5 minutes. I figured it was a result of the food energy hitting. We have started to allow her to go out on our screened porch when she starts. For reason sitting on the porch with a bully stick watching the birds seems to settle her quicker than anything.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm with the people who are not fond of sending your pup away. 

I too work 6 days a week, mine are mostly 10 hour days but occasionally 11-12 hour days. I'm outside and doing very physical work--loading 25gal trees (2" caliper), 1-15 gal plant material, 40lb bags of fertilizer, 50lb bags of mulch...you get the idea. Plus, it's damm cold here and crappy weather mostly all spring. My pup was a bit older than yours in the spring, but I actually got him when I was still working in the fall. Utilize the crate. Can you come home or have someone come to let him out at lunch? It sucks getting up extra early to do some exercise, but honest, even though I felt like someone'd beaten me with a stick after work, seeing that wriggly excited pup invigorated me. 

It really goes by fast. I think that you are going to miss out on a lot by not learning how to train it yourself. There are moments of "ugh" but there are many more fun and laughable moments that when your dog is older, and is approaching the end, you will be glad to be able to recall and enjoy. 

I know others do it, but frankly, my opinion is unless that's the arrangement you've made with the breeder (to have them hold the pup back until you are ready for it, for competition or showing purposes), for the average pet owner, why did you get a pup if you're not willing to deal with puppyhood? It's like having a kid then sending it off to boarding school when they start to be "too much". I'm sorry if that comes across as offensive--but I have three teenagers right now, and give me a puppy any day! They're WAY faster to mature!


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> I'm with the people who are not fond of sending your pup away.
> 
> I too work 6 days a week, mine are mostly 10 hour days but occasionally 11-12 hour days. I'm outside and doing very physical work--loading 25gal trees (2" caliper), 1-15 gal plant material, 40lb bags of fertilizer, 50lb bags of mulch...you get the idea. Plus, it's damm cold here and crappy weather mostly all spring. My pup was a bit older than yours in the spring, but I actually got him when I was still working in the fall. Utilize the crate. Can you come home or have someone come to let him out at lunch? It sucks getting up extra early to do some exercise, but honest, even though I felt like someone'd beaten me with a stick after work, seeing that wriggly excited pup invigorated me.
> 
> ...


Well you know what they say about opinions.

You can compare it however you want. You chose something with a negative connotation like boarding school. I choose to look at it more like ski school or band camp where my kid goes off and learns to do something I don't have the skill set to teach it.

It's only a two week program and after that we will go to the group classes with her.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Expecting a small puppy to retain a "two week program" isn't that realistic--it's not going to change like magic. And then there's the 'waves'....they go through them, so at 8-10 months, during sexual maturity, what are you going to do then? If you didn't have the time or the commitment to handle a puppy, why did you get one?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Too late to edit but I should clarify that yes, it's my opinion, so that is probably worth exactly what a penny is worth. Less than it costs to make it.  But "sending your kid to ski camp to teach a skill set you can't" isn't the same at all. To extrapolate further on the kid analogy, parents often have kids not knowing how to do "sports" or "music" or anything at all. But the _raising_, the teaching of basic manners, how to behave in society and how to act appropriately should be up to said parents. That's all that is required of your puppy right now, also. Learning house manners, and basic obedience. How to behave in your world. 

That shouldn't be a "skill set you don't have".


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

It's been a while since this thread and I thought I should come back and update it. We did end up sending her off to K9 command for training and in spite of some board members recommendations against it, it was the best money we've spent.

We sent her off at 17 weeks, she stayed there for three weeks and came back a totally different dog. No more nipping or mouthing at all. She learned to go to place and wait there until released, sitz, platz, fuss, bleib all off leash. There is definitely something to be said for using a professional when everything you are doing isn't working. 

Another thing we like about the trainer we used is that if your dog has done the board and train program they will board your dog in their house as one of their pets. So when we go on vacation at the end of June Brunie will be staying with Amy and getting some additional training.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

get gloves ! the landshark may live for up to 8 months


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## hotrod2448 (Oct 12, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> get gloves ! the landshark may live for up to 8 months


Totally not necessary any more.


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## 27justice.bryant (10 mo ago)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> She is a herding dog. When just one of you tries to take her for a walk she knows part of her HERD is missing. Seriously. That's why she doesn't want to leave.
> 
> When it's just a one-on-one walk I would toss her in the car, drive to a great park or something and walk there. As she matures she will begin to realize that walks can take place without the entire pack.
> 
> ...


german shepards always try to kill me


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