# Breeding plan



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Often you hear people talk about a "breeding plan"....a little insight into mine. Right now I have two DDR females and a Czech female. My next in home stud will be my all West German workingline male. I try to have litters that will have puppies that have all spectrum of temperaments and drives. This I think is in keeping with the original intent of the breed to be a utility dog. The Eastern bloc dogs tend to be of good stable temperament, moderate drives, good nerve, good hips, and a history of being very healthy dogs. Very low maintenance with the Vet office as they tend to be a very hardy dog. This is the type of dog that I want as a dam to my puppies. They also have retained elements of suspicion in the East lines. This is a very desirable trait that many breeders have bred out of the dog but is necessary to be farm and family protector. 
My stud will be a West workingline dog that will maintain genetic diversity, bring more drive, stronger nerve yet, and athleticness to the pups. This will also increase the variety of type in the litter, which I think is good and I also think has been one of the big downfalls in the breed; Litter uniformity. Litter uniformity comes at the expense of narrowing the genepool and going down the road to mental health issues at the expense of physical uniformity. The breed was not created to be uniform in either size, drive, color, head size, angulation, etc. I cannot compromise the mental integrity of the breed. Therefore some of my dogs will be able to do service work, some will be able to do LE work, almost all will have no problem with family life because the nerve and temperament will be constant, but the drives and hardness will vary. The two elements that I will not have will be extremely driven dogs, and shy dogs. 
This is just a general blueprint, keeping in mind that I have an abundance of knowledge on the traits and histories of any dog I use in my breeding plan to be able to generalize like this. Still, breeding is always subject to the almighty and good fortune(smile). Just want to stimulate some dialogue on what people are seeking to produce when they breed and based on what.


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

That is the kind of GSD I'm looking for. I've been lurking for a while now. Have read the debates about East vs West vs ASL . I've been a breeder of American Quarter Horses for over twenty-five years. So I do somewhat understand the diversity.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I like your overall plan and goal. I will give Angela a pat on the back because I think she pulled off exactly what you are striving for in her K litter *based solely on the pup I have from that litter* by taking her DDR line female to a DDR/Working line male.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cliff, interesting post. Interesting to me b/c I am somewhat involved in the show scene and it always seemed that they *like* litter uniformity, but I suppose in those cases it's more about structure/aesthetics uniformity.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When breeding for structure, I choose to value phenotype over genotype. The show people go in the other direction which is fine for one generation or two to "set" a type but then you have to go back to genetic diversity because when you set your type with genetics(linebreeding/inbreeding), you are also increasing the concentration of negatives and making them harder to breed out. They spread like wildfire. That's why oldtimers will tell you that temperament is the hardest thing to get and the easiest to lose. So when you breed by genotype for more than two generations on dogs to further get this physical feature you want, the mental part starts going to [heck] in handbasket. Now when you keep on (genotype) breeding these same lines for countless generations, unless you cull out all the weak tempered dogs and never breed them(and we know those breeders won't do that because they may be the most structurally what they want), then you start catapulting down the slippery slope of mental weakness. 
So, stuctural uniformity through phenotype(physically like but different genetically) is the safewest way to keep good structure, and maitain your mental health, but it won't give litter uniformity.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

good posts and explanation cliff. We have always bred for sound temperament and health first and foremost. And like you said, we are constantly looking for complimentary outcrosses once we set our "type". We constantly try to breed back to our original bloodlines after outcrosses particularly if the outcross compliments/contributes to what we were/are aiming for. Litter uniformity is not part of our breeding goals (it could be a latent outcome) nor is color.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:So, stuctural uniformity through phenotype(physically like but different genetically) is the safewest way to keep good structure, and maitain your mental health, but it won't give litter uniformity.


I'm confused. Since genes give you the phenotype, and you are breeding type to type, aren't you still breeding on the same genes even if they are acquired thru different bloodlines?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Daphne, Its not the genes its the genetic diversity. Remember the breed was made up of at least 4 different type dogs in the beginning that had different strengths and traits. Take the West German Showline for an example, today all of them go back to Canto and Quanto Weinereau. This is how the black and Red type was set. When this started, there was also Mutz vd Peltzerferm(black and tan) and Marko vom Cellerland(bi-color type with Black gene), as premier showdogs(1970 to 1975). For the next 15 years to maintain the black and Red/Tan type they gradually eliminated Marko from all showlines, and increased the hue of the black and red/tan to black and red/orange. Now to do this they had to start eliminating breeding the Mutz stock because it was black and light tan and less angulated(though far better temperament).By the year 2005 there was almost no lines that went back to Mutz and none to Marko, and definitely none to working lines. So the type was SET and ENTRENCHED on the genes of the two Weinereau dogs. The genes of the Mutz stock, Marko stock, and all the other sable, black, and bi-color German Shepherds have been eliminated for the past thirty years. So there is not genetic diversity, but a glutton of genes from two dogs and their ancestors. Do these dogs have the same genes as my dogs, sure if you go back before thirty years ago. But in past thirty years they dog no reflect genetic diversity, nor the genes of the dogs I or you have used.(Remember this is a thirty year period of this concentration) So the type has been set genetically with two dogs and their direct descendants for past thirty-five years without influx of any of the genes of the sable, black, or bi-colors. The phenotype being the outward expression of the dog, if based on color excludes to many elements of the breed colorwise to allow for genetic diversity. Maybe this explains the difference for you and maybe you see things a different way...its okay either way. This is just my understanding and it appears to me the outcomes of the weaknesses of the West German Showline are consistent with what happens when you lose genetic diversity. Coincidence???? People will have to be the judge!!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I dislike the cookie cutter phenomenon seen in some breeds. Essentially allll the dogs/bitches being shown look & act identical. Bleh. 

& I hate the show phenomenon where it's little but a bubble headed beauty contest...Look pretty, don't shy from the judge (or bite her!) & never mind that the winning lines are short lived, faint of heart, riddled with numerous major & minor health problems. Triple BLEH.

I want uniformity as far as stable, temperamentally sound dogs who are healthy, robust, intelligent & long lived. Beyond that there are traits important to me...Good with people, excellent with children, amiable with other animals, a well developed sense of 'self', some independence of thought but still reasonably biddable & with loads of personality. I love a personable guy who's difficult to rile, but also resilient, tough minded, assertive & tricky smart...an excellent problem solver, cocky, confident yet tolerant.

Clifton....posing a hypothetical question...I'm assuming you get dogs suited to my circumstances. Given how slowly your lines mature, how reliably can you predict a pup that's a good match with me vs someone who wants to do SchH or is seeking a PP dog? Is this apparent at 8-12wks?

Some related questions...Since you produce dogs suited for service, assistance or therapy as well as LE, SchH & PP, how does the reactivity vary? Or the urge/instinct to bite? Level of suspicion? Protective instincts? Again, are these differences obvious from a young age?

Note...One of the most appropriately protective dogs I ever knew was a 5mo old Rottie bitch. HOWEVER, her protective instincts were of the 'mothering hen' type rather than the snarling wolf bitch variety. She was left with 3 unsupervised children whose ages varied from 3-5 & she appointed herself their caretaker. She'd use her body to herd them out of the street or block them from re-entering the roadway! Despite her young age & the lack of supervision she never pushed, jumped, nipped or got rough with the children. It's not *my* breed but I adored that bitch. I saw her as an adult & she was one ugleee mugged Rottie, a goofy looking bitch tbh, but her personality & temperament remained the same. That girl exemplified what Rottie breeders should strive for, IMO. I'd think it's that kind of protectiveness that would work best in svc dogs. Realistically, most of the threats/risks people face aren't bad guys trying to do 'em dirt...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ruby Tuesday, Good questions. 
Basically that is where my many years of the breed, knowledge of certain behavoirs and traits and knowledge of my dogs come in. The dogs for law enforcement you can usually tell by their degree of aggression, civilness, dominance, tail carriage, boldness, etc. Couple this with knowledge of what the mother and father lines produce in terms of overall dogs. One of the blessings about putting the kind of emphasis that I do on temperament is that 95% of my puppies are solid in terms of stable temperament and nerve. This allows the dog to make the adjustment to the type of home/training that it will endure. Some of my more laid back pups I know will be good service dogs and this usually works out. I have pups that see through their nose at young ages and I know they will make good SAR/Narctic dogs if a have a home that that is the purpose. Sometimes, they blossom late and they turn out to be different than you thought, and I would be remiss to say that doesn't happen. But, still with the foundation of temperament, they have made the adjustment to the situation though the transition may be longer or more training, but they accomplish the task because a good GS is capable of pretty much anything if it recieves the training and foundation. And finally, there is no sustitute for experience and knowledge of the breed and your dogs in particular. Without that you really are breeding at disadvantage.JMO


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Clifton, I'm curious. What are your dogs generally like with small children? Toddlers? Babies? Small, timid dogs? Small, bratty dogs? Large dogs of the same gender? Large dogs of the opposite gender? How much does this vary b/w the individual dogs? Naturally, there's a training component, but what do you find their natural inclinations to be?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Most of my dogs go to families with kids. They are perfectly fine with all of the above unless they are deprived of socialization as puppies as they should be. They are like german Shepherds from the 60's before all this specialization. Strong, intelligent, noble, able to discern good from bad because they have more brains than drive and because they are not weak nerved so those things you mentioned in a normal situation are nonthreatening.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

_"Strong, intelligent, noble, able to discern good from bad because they have more brains than drive and because they are not weak nerved..."_ I suspect I'd love your dogs! Strong minded, opinionated dogs can be such a pleasure. All too often people believe muddle headed, snappy, unreliable dogs are 'protective' & encourage churlish, even dangerous behavior from their dogs. Sadly, these dogs often pay for their owners' ignorance & mismanagement.

Spanky, my American Bulldog, is constitutionally incapable of ignoring a canine challenge regardless of the source. Sam & Djibouti, the GSDs, give little brat acting dogs a disdaining glance & then oh*so*emphatically ignore 'em. They have the judgment & self confidence to realize it's flatout unnecessary to respond to 10 or 20lbs of snarling fluff.

Spanky was excellent with children in her previous life but given the trauma she suffered prior to coming here, her reactivity & aggression to small animals, & that my daughter feels she's 'changed' since the death of her initial owner, I can't take chances with her & kids. (Not especially difficult since my grrl is 21 & doesn't have children of her own yet). The GSDs, bless 'em, are exemplary with people in general & excellent with small children. Even as a pup Djibouti had a 'feel' for children & was especially careful around 'em.


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