# breeding



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I read this post on facebook. It was posted by a breeder -not a GSD breeder. She took her dog to the emergency vet -as her dog was delivering a pup got stuck. When she went to the ER vet they stated they would do xrays a sonogram and spay the dog. She did not want the dog spayed. I think she might have tried another vet and same situation. So she took the dog home pulled the puppy out -the puppy passed away and then took the dog to her regular vet for the rest of the delivery. Can vets insist that the dog must be spayed...just think this was a horrible situation


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## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

I wouldn't think a vet could force it, they can suggest it, sure. They can't require it however, as it is not their animal. Personally I don't spay my dogs, and I don't breed them. To me the risks of spaying a young dog outweigh the benefits.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't know anything about veterinary medicine, but I would assume a veterinarian would need an owner's consent to spay an animal. I do not know why they would refuse to help deliver the puppies and insist on spaying unless there was a medical reason. Perhaps they determined that it is not medically safe for this particular female to carry a litter. Perhaps a breeder will chime in. It's unfortunate the puppy did not survive.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I went to a vet with a dog who had been porcupine quilled. It was an e-vet clinic that had just been bought by the Blue Pearl franchise. Before that, it was independently owned. They forced me to pay for a blood pressure for my dog, and I wasn't allowed to refuse if I wanted those quills out. There weren't many quills, but they were in the mouth, and impossible for me to reach. 

It was crazy expensive, too. Something like $100 just for the blood pressure. And like $500 just to get a few quills out. At my regular vet, same procedure is less than $250 even with the emergency on call fee. 

This was a young, healthy dog. 

So, yeah, somehow this vet was convinced it was medically necessary to get a blood pressure, even though I've never since had any vet suggest such a thing. And I've never been back to Blue Pearl.

So, the owner can refuse treatment, but if they do, the vet can apparently refuse to treat. Probably what happened here. I have heard that it was a franchise vet. 

Breeders need to try to ensure they have a known vet on call for litters and delivery, if at all possible. It's ideal when the vet knows the dog and breeder, and supports their breeding program.


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## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

I'm starting to wonder if i'm just lucky my vet's not a franchise vet. 

I can see, in the case they didnt think it safe for the dog to have a litter, to want to spay her though. I know i've heard of vets refusing people service, ive also heard of them doing surgeries without asking the owner, like spaying while the dog was being operated on for some other reason.

I imagine porcupine quills are very difficult to get out of a dog's face, thankfully I don't have that issue where i live. Knowing me i'd try and pull em out with pliers!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Kat- sometimes you can pull with pliers, but there's risk to getting the dog too worked up and when they are back in the gums or roof of the mouth, it's really tricky. And some are very hard to see. 

I have trained my dogs to stay back from a porkie for the most part, but sometimes one comes in the yard and I don't see it in time, and a dog gets a bit too close. We have a lot of porcupines around here. 

I was going to do avoidance training with a captive porcupine, but there's all sorts of permits involved, and apparently porcupines are really stinky and drop quills everywhere, making them tough to keep. Weird, because I'd be allowed to shoot a porcupine anytime on my property, but not catch one and keep it in a cage.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ummm...no. That would be illegal to do a procedure you did not authorize. They can't even save an animal that the owner wants euthanized without authorization. Say in the case of the owner just not wanting a perfectly healthy dog anymore. 

But they can refuse services for whatever reason they want so I guess if they want to be PETA people they could demand to spay or refuse services. I would hope the person blasted that vet name all over the internet.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I feel so bad for the female-it must have been so traumatic and painful-I think I would try to report the vet-not sure if you could-


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

We went to drop off a stool sample once and they said we needed a $200 appointment first. Seemed kind of weird to me since the dog wasn't having symptoms of anything just wanted to check some weird thing in his poop.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How do you know it was a $200 appointment? I've never known what my appt would cost until I"m paying.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> How do you know it was a $200 appointment? I've never known what my appt would cost until I"m paying.


They are probably talking about the “office visit” charge


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I read that same FB thread. General consensus seems to be that it’s a Blue Pearl policy (spaying with a c-section). Seems like a lot of vets are being bought out by them too.


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## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

Quite honestly I would expect the vet we have closest to us to do stuff like that. the woman that works there/worked there, doesnt know anything, she in fact injected 10 cc's of water into a newborn mini dachshund, and it effectively drowned because of that, and its that vet ive heard of doing things like the two surgeries just because the dog was already opened up. the nicest thing i can say about this vet is Pure Incompetence. 

Thankfully the vet my dogs go to is a good one, though last time i went with my ferrets they got their birthdays all messed around which confused me pretty good, and they said my shepherd, Katanya's lumps on her feet and legs were scar tissue from overly licking because of the hellacious year we had for fleas here this year. It still concerns me because ive never seen big lumps caused by that.

Doctors do illegal things too, but im not getting into my own doctor issue here, this is a dog forum and this issue would have no place here

yeah Muskeg, I know dogs can get worked up over things, even a well mannered one. Katanya's a good dog but I wouldnt put it past her to panic over something that's got to be as painful as a faceful of quills and someone pulling at them. She's scared of cats too, probably cause i had to retrain her from attacking them, after she had been trained by her previous owner to kill them. Now she thinks i'm gonna yell at her for sniffing one I suppose. Guess I really meant that as a comment showing my lack of experience of quills and that it might be something requiring special equipment to remove. I don't know if we even have porkies here, at least ive never seen one except in the zoo. My mother's pup would definitely lose it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I don’t know if any vet that can force you to do something you don’t want to do. That being said there may have been other complications that weren’t mentioned. 

I’ve known of a number of dogs who have died during a C-section. With Kimbers current litter, I was afraid she was going to need one after seeing how big the puppies were on the X-ray. I told my vet that if I had to bring her in due to complications that Kimbers well being was my number one priority, puppies second, and in the process to spay her, because I would never risk her health again after that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'll never spay during a c-section again. Milk didn't come down, the only puppy was unable to get it going. Then she hemorrhaged. She was Knocked out a lot longer than a normal c-section because they spayed and had a lot more bleeders to tie off because her whole insides were blown up with the pregnancy. She was still woozy when she started hemorrhaging. I ran in to throw on some clothes to take her to the vet and she, well, I lost the puppy. I don't blame her. I shouldn't have left it in with her, when she still wasn't herself. 

But I will never spay again during a c-section. 

I did have a stuck puppy once. I couldn't get the puppy out, and it was a singleton. So, I took her to my vet and I held Babs' head while the vet and vet tech worked on her on the other end. They were able to deliver the puppy. No discussion about altering the dog was made. That was the last litter Babs had, 5 or 6 years ago. She's still intact. 

If you are going to be a breeder, than if all possible, find a veterinary clinic that has a reproduction department. Yes, you may have to drive to get there. They will NOT tell you to spay your bitch or else. The veterinary oath, is there still such a thing? But it used to be that they would preserve life. To demand something or to send out a bitch and pup that might die, is reprehensible. They need to find a different profession.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I was wondering if there was a veterinary oath too. Or a board that you could complain to - I get that they can't force you to spay-but if I went into the vet with a stuck puppy -and they said xrays, sonogram and spay- I wouldn't feel that I was in the position to bargain. I got the sense that the breeder involved was experienced I could not imagine going home and pulling the pup out myself. I guess I also wonder if a dog needs a C-section does that always mean the dog is going to need a c section. It just seems like they are making decisions for the owner in order for them to provide treatment. I have no plans to breed my dog is almost 13...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's blackmail with a bitch's life. It is PETA mentality. I would not spend a penny in their establishment ever again if they did that. I cannot think of any form of ethics anything that would be ok with that. It is beyond pushing your beliefs and agenda on people. 

My vet doesn't like RAW feeding. I rarely give my dogs chicken leg quarters. Very rarely. But she knows that I do. Once, she had x-rayed a dog of mine and said it wasn't something, but there are chicken bones in there. I said, yeah, I gave him some raw chicken. 

She doesn't like it. And has remembered that for maybe a dozen years. But she does not refuse to treat my dogs because I may be fed them something raw. That is what this vet is doing. Refusing to treat an intact dog without "fixing" it. It is hateful. I want to go slash their tires.


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