# Developing the bark



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

How do you start working on a good, consistent bark?

When do you (or do you?) start to get concerned that the dog is not giving a good bark?

Is it often because the dog is "locked in prey?" Solutions?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How about teaching it as barking for food or toy and mark the barking? 






I seldom have a helper to work with mine, but, it has happened that this is not always a bad thing. I am working on getting the bark behavior understood before we "put it into action".


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Pfffffffffft


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Do you have words that go with that? lol


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I knew that would get a rise!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Guess I will have to watch it to see why?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Would the first step be to teach the dog that the barking brings the decoy's action?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is your question concerning in the blind, B&H exercise?
Some dogs are not comfortable in the blind, lack of confidence in there~ so building confidence will help.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am mostly curious about a green dog, not an insecure dog.

I have heard people recommend using the table (or the box), and/or adding a prong collar.

The idea of the collar (as it has been explained to me) is that in a harness the dog can put all of his energy into pulling, the prong stops that and the dog barks better as a result. The "ouch" of the prong also brings out more aggression.

I am not sure exactly of the way the table/box works? I have seen it, and it did work. 
Just thinking by writing...... Maybe it brings just enough stress to add defense? Assuming that the dog was "locked in prey" or if it is a dog with high thresholds who does not easily see a threat?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Samba said:


> How about teaching it as barking for food or toy and mark the barking?
> 
> YouTube - Clicker training with coach Bart Bellon
> 
> I seldom have a helper to work with mine, but, it has happened that this is not always a bad thing. I am working on getting the bark behavior understood before we "put it into action".


Does barking for a "prey" item transfer over to barking aggressively at the helper?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know that it really does. It should be a rather different mindset when coming into the blind. But, they do have to learn to bark there, so there's that. Hope for a good training helper. 

The very first thing I worked on with Hogan and the helper son was the barking. There was not a lot of prey work done early anyway. It was somewhat serious business even the first time out. 

If no helper, there is the nifty ball thingy...
http://k-9bsd.com/barkandhold.htm


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The answer to this question can be seen at your mailbox. Ask that postal worker how he gets dogs, big and small, to bark at him without offering them the sleeve every time he shows up.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

He is in the dog's space?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gagsd said:


> I am not sure exactly of the way the table/box works? I have seen it, and it did work.
> Just thinking by writing......* Maybe it brings just enough stress to add defense?* Assuming that the dog was "locked in prey" or if it is a dog with high thresholds who does not easily see a threat?


I would say that is the key...and if the dog has a lower threshold the barking may be the reason. 
I'm not sure this is your dog that you are writing of, but did the pup ever bark at a rag or pillow? 

We have a young female in our group that won't bark, so she was put on a pause table and basically tethered from each side(one line the handler was holding, the other tied to a post)every time she made a noise she was rewarded. 
She didn't actually bark strong the last session, but did learn that reward of the pillow wil come with her making some noise. I'm anxious to see what the next session will bring.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The dog must learn that his barking controls the helper. Whether the dog is worked in prey or defense or aggression, that fundamental is the same. The prey dog is telling the helper to give him the toy, the defense dog is telling the helper to back off and the aggression dog is dominating the helper through his bark.

How that whole process is initiated depends on the temperament and drives of the dog, skill of the helper and goals of the training. Some teach this concept initially in prey, where barking flushes the helper making the helper (or rag or tug or whatever) move in response to the bark. Some teach it initially through suspicion, where the helper presents a threat or challenge, which is then neutralized by the dog. When the dog barks strongly, the "bad guy" backs down or leaves. But no matter how it is approached, the end goal is the same.. for the dog to learn he can control the helper, and in doing so start the action, counter attacks, subdue the threat, and basically run the whole show not just through biting, but also through barking.

The mailman analogy is a very good one. From the dog's perspective, since he has no way of knowing anything else, the sequence goes like this: mailman came, dog barked, mailman left. To the dog his actions caused the mailman to leave. He controlled, overpowered and scared off the mailman, driving him away from the territory, through his barking.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> The answer to this question can be seen at your mailbox. Ask that postal worker how he gets dogs, big and small, to bark at him without offering them the sleeve every time he shows up.


Crap. Bison doesn't bark at the mail carrier. Doesn't see her as a threat. She comes up on our poarch and then leaves. Now the pizza guy... :spittingcoffee:


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

"I am not sure exactly of the way the table/box works?"


Since it's flight or fight, a table leaves no flight option, so brings out
defense.Never used one, was not an option presented.
An older school approach, from what I have gathered.

Maybe others who have used a table can speak to it's use and explain it better?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

dOg said:


> Since it's flight or fight, a table leaves no flight option, so brings out
> defense.


Some dogs take flight within themselves. It's called learned helplessness. 

And the table is not "old school". There may have been a few people that needed that crutch back in the day. But because of the type of helper work that most "new school" helpers do they need this crutch to illicit the same behaviors that can be accomplished on the ground.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Working a dog on a table is a crutch?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Some dogs take flight within themselves. It's called learned helplessness.


Can you explain this a little more.. Please.  Curious to hear what you mean.. And is this something the dog learned because of the helper or no?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what do you want your dog to bark at?????


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

rvadog said:


> Working a dog on a table is a crutch?


Yes it's a crutch. 

Do you think that that the table teaches some type of behavior that can't be taught on the ground?


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Tell me how you would work a dog in defense that has a very high threshold?

Also do you consider clicker a clutch? I surely can teach anything I want with no clicker. Or is it simply a training tool?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

G-burg said:


> Can you explain this a little more.. Please.  Curious to hear what you mean..


Here is an article that explains it well:

_The American psychologist Martin Seligman's foundational experiments and theory of learned helplessness began at University of Pennsylvania in 1967, as an extension of his interest in depression. Quite by accident, Seligman and colleagues discovered that the conditioning of dogs led to outcomes that opposed the predictions of B.F. Skinner's behaviorism, then a leading psychological theory.[2][3]_
_In part one of Seligman and Steve Maier's experiment, three groups of dogs were placed in harnesses. Group One dogs were simply put in the harnesses for a period of time and later released. Groups Two and Three consisted of "yoked pairs." A dog in Group 2 would be intentionally subjected to pain by being given electric shocks, which the dog could end by pressing a lever. A Group 3 dog was wired in parallel with a Group 2 dog, receiving shocks of identical intensity and duration, but his lever didn't stop the electric shocks. To a dog in Group 3, it seemed that the shock ended at random, because it was his paired dog in Group 2 that was causing it to stop. For Group 3 dogs, the shock was apparently "inescapable." Group 1 and Group 2 dogs quickly recovered from the experience, but Group 3 dogs learned to be helpless, and exhibited symptoms similar to chronic clinical depression._
_In part two of the Seligman and Maier experiment, these three groups of dogs were tested in a shuttle-box apparatus, in which the dogs could escape electric shocks by jumping over a low partition. For the most part, the Group 3 dogs, who had previously "learned" that nothing they did had any effect on the shocks, simply lay down passively and whined. Even though they could have easily escaped the shocks, the dogs didn't try._
_In a second experiment later that year, Overmier and Seligman ruled out the possibility that the Group 3 dogs learned some behavior in part one of the experiment, while they were struggling in the harnesses against the "inescapable shocks," that somehow interfered with what would have been their normal, successful behavior of escaping from the shocks in part two. The Group 3 dogs were immobilized with a paralyzing drug (Curare), and underwent a procedure similar to that in part one of the Seligman and Maier experiment. A similar part two in the shuttle-box was also undertaken in this experiment, and the Group 3 dogs exhibited the same "helpless" response._
_However, not all of the dogs in Seligman's experiments became helpless. Of the roughly 150 dogs in experiments in the latter half of the 1960s, about one-third did __not become helpless, but instead managed to find a way out of the unpleasant situation despite their past experience with it. The corresponding characteristic in humans has been found to correlate highly with optimism: an explanatory style that views the situation as __other than personal, pervasive, or permanent. This distinction between people who adapt and those who break down under long-term psychological pressure was also studied in the 1950s in the context of brainwashing._


Notice that 1/3 of the dog did not become helpless? These are the dogs that table proponents show everyone. But what about those other dogs? 



> And is this something the dog learned because of the helper or no?


No it's learned because the handler was dumb enough to put his dog on a table and let some guy teach/pressure his dog into the illusion that the helper has all of the control in the bitework and that he has no escape other than aggression. 

What happens when the walls of the illusion come tumbling down like the walls of Jericho?


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

You never answered my question.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

rvadog said:


> You never answered my question.


I didn't see it.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Still didn't see it? Or are you just being obnoxious? Here you go:

Tell me how you would work a dog in defense that has a very high threshold?

Also do you consider clicker a clutch? I surely can teach anything I want with no clicker. Or is it simply a training tool?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

rvadog said:


> Tell me how you would work a dog in defense that has a very high threshold?


I don't know. I have to work the dog. But I don't like to work dogs it defense anyway. I think there are better ways.



> Also do you consider clicker a clutch?


Sometimes it's a crutch. At times it can even be a hindrance.



> I surely can teach anything I want with no clicker. Or is it simply a training tool?


I don't know what YOU can teach, clicker or not. 

Yes it's a tool. 

OK so have you moved me deep enough within your trap? Are you ready to spring the whole the table is a simply a tool BS.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I use a lot of crutches when training, all depending on the dog and the crutch that I think will best benefit the dog. I have trained dogs with the remote, I have trained dogs without the remote, I have trained dogs completely on the ground, I have trained dogs not on the ground. I have had Mike Diehl and Nate Harves work my dog off the ground and we later discarded the crutch and he is a very successful police dog today. Love those crutches. Each dog is different and you use the best tool based on you resources, ability and knowledge.JMO


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

I've got you number now. You're one of those people that knows just enough about SchH to be dangerous.

The table *is* a tool. Remember that schutzhund was created as a way to test a dog in defense. Do you know the difference between a prey bark and a confident defense bark? Have you seen a dog working in defense in the blind? Would you agree that it a much more impressive picture?

Did you know that a table is sometimes used to work on a dogs grip? Look at the video below. Watch the dog's body language. Watch the helper. Pretty terrible training right?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

cliffson1 said:


> I use a lot of crutches when training, all depending on the dog and the crutch that I think will best benefit the dog.


I agree with you 100%. A person should do what "THEY THINK" is the right thing for for their dog. No argument there.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

This is the same dog in this video. This is much better helper work than in the first video. Notice that the helper is doing the same thing by moving himself into a lower position thus creating what they are trying to do with the table in the first video. But the dog is on the ground, where he will be on trial day. Like i said in my first post the table is a crutch used by those that can't get the same results with the dog on the ground.

What does everyone else think? Is the barking better in the first video or this one?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

One more thing. The barking is less stressed and the grips are much more full in the second video. 

I don't think the dog will ever be in the barking hall of fame though.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

I like this one too. Using the rocks as a crutch. But at least the dog is on the ground.

YouTube - xico in los angeles!


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Fast said:


> One more thing. The barking is less stressed and the grips are much more full in the second video.
> 
> I don't think the dog will ever be in the barking hall of fame though.


It has become blantantly obvious to me that you have no idea what you are talking about and have no idea how to read a dog. They are training different things in the videos you compared. The first video is working grips. I don't know where you see a not very full grip either

I'd love to see a video of you working a dog. Or even your dog.

Have you ever used a table? Have you ever even seen a table used in person?

And this calling it a crutch is getting old. Leashes and collars are crutches. Food is a crutch. Toys are crutches. Or they're tools. And a good trainer knows what tool to use on each dog and what tools not to use.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

If you have a high threshold dog, the work from the helper has to disturb the dog enough to make him a little unsure, which , in a good dog, will trigger aggression. That is when you get strong barking. Then it is up to the helper to take that aggression and make the dog confident using it. Meaning, the helper lets the dog know that bark and aggressive behavior is having an impact on her/him. You don't do that with big movements, those things remove the "danger" the dog is feeling. You do it with very subtle body language and by lessening your presence just a bit when the dog shows that aggression. You only have so much time to accomplish this and one mistake changes the tone and the opportunity is lost. Too much movement from the helper or trying to use the whip to threaten the dog, rarely, if ever, works. It won't make a bit of difference in a dog is he is on a table or working in Bedrock, it comes down to who the helper is. It is the helper's ability that makes the difference. This is something that people just seem to no longer believe. Maybe because they just never see it anymore. Yes, you can use different places to put the dog a little on edge but if the helper lacks the ability I just talked about, you can forget it.

As for the table video. Isn't the topic barking? What is the point of showing work with the grip? I am not a big believer in the table or many things offered as solutions nowadays. Again, it comes down to the ability of the helper. I have seen so many try to use that table and never accomplish anything using it. Most get right on top of the dog too fast and yes, I am still talking about barking. I have never had to use a table to get a dog to bite well. They bite full and hard because I am the helper. I am a little dangerous in the dog's mind and that brings out who the dog is. They bring the power when the helper is someone they have to really contend with and you build that power by allowing the dog to overpower the helper. This is not done by constantly slipping the sleeve either. That too, is very subtle.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Some day Anne, I will win the lottery and I will go to learn helper work with you.

Sorry... back to topic.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Vandal said:


> As for the table video. Isn't the topic barking? What is the point of showing work with the grip?


The point of the video was that Fast had hijacked the thread to turn it in to a"The table is bad" dialogue. The table is a tool. Some people like it, some don't. Some people like to teach the bark purely in prey. Some would rather use defense.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is a general warning. Let's please stop the petty bickering and one-upmanship and agree to disagree on the use of the table. 

Thank you,

Admin Lisa

********


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

rvadog said:


> Some people like to teach the bark purely in prey. Some would rather use defense.


Do you believe that those are your only options to teach a dog to bark?

And BTW, I never said that the table was bad. I called it a crutch. A crutch is to help a person that does not have the ability to preform to the average. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't call it a tool because I don't believe that we have to accept that nobody can do this type of work without a table.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So Fast, how would you develop the bark?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I would say that would be dependent upon the dog, no? Some dogs are easily triggered and others aren't..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Catu,
Just a plane ticket, don't need to win the Lottery, unless you fly first class, then yes, you do need to pick all six numbers.

As for Fast, if he could put the dogs in the same frame of mind he puts the people in, he would be one HOT commodity in SchH.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Yes, you can use different places to put the dog a little on edge but if the helper lacks the ability I just talked about, you can forget it.
> 
> 
> > Many dogs don't do well with it or can't take being put on edge by the helper. With some of those dogs an environmental pressure upset can be used to spark aggression during the bitework. Once the dog is showing aggression in the context of bitework then the helper can come in.
> ...


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Catu,
> 
> 
> As for Fast, if he could put the dogs in the same frame of mind he puts the people in, he would be one HOT commodity in SchH.


You assume that he's not.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Are you agreeing with me or arguing? I can never tell with you. What I said would include what you said. If the dog can't handle it, it is up to the helper to SEE that and make adjustments.

I know you have to constantly change training venues so all those people clamoring to train with you can't find where you are.

Edited to add: To be clear, I didn't say the helper puts the dog on edge I said the environment. However, I have not met that many dogs who could not deal with a some of that coming from the helper. Of course, how much, depends on the dog, like I already said. However, the helper has PLENTY to do with what goes on in that situation and if the helper has nothing going on inside, the dog will not miss that fact. Then it is all for nothing.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Fast said:


> Many dogs don't do well with it or can't take being put on edge by the helper. With some of those dogs an environmental pressure upset can be used to spark aggression during the bitework. Once the dog is showing aggression in the context of bitework then the helper can come in.
> 
> 
> It is also much safer to use environmental pressure to when teaching a helper about aggression.


Now I'm thouroughly confused. You want environmental pressure to bring out real aggression but hate the table? What do you think the table is if it's not environmental pressure (in the same vein as working a dog at night or on slippery floors).

What specifically would you use as environmental pressure?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

RVA, it never ceases to amaze me how people can evaluate and be expert on things they don't like or have little use for. This thread is in a Sch topic area so in the context of Sch, I will defer to conventional Sch wisdom on the bark. But whether it is tables, which some use for strengthening, barks and grips in certain dogs, or on the ground methods through the helper, handler, or training director, the end result is the ultimate goal. BTW, my opinion on developing barking is the same as developing grips, you have the naturals and you can strengthen the not naturals to a certain degree with training. But stress will change the built up grip or bark while the natural will remain more constant. JMO


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Catu,
> Just a plane ticket, don't need to win the Lottery, unless you fly first class, then yes, you do need to pick all six numbers.


I will save this thread in a safe place then, because I'm gonna take your word once I finish University. I am good at cleaning kennels


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, you'd better hurry Catu, I ain't no spring chicken...just get the basic degree and buy the ticket.  

As for "the naturals".......they get better when you put stress on them.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Amen to the naturals....and whatever works for improvement that gives a nice end result without conflict....use it!!!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Would someone indulge an answer to couple very basic question? Was the dog in videos 2 and 3 being trained to bark in prey? It appeared to me that he was working in prey? Is that correct?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

rvadog said:


> Now I'm thouroughly confused. You want environmental pressure to bring out real aggression but hate the table? What do you think the table is if it's not environmental pressure (in the same vein as working a dog at night or on slippery floors).
> 
> What specifically would you use as environmental pressure?


Your confusing yourself. 

Use the quote feature and find where I stated that I "hate" anything. 

Why don't you show me the dog YOU trained on the table? Or explain why the table gets better barking than can be achieved with the dog on the ground.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Are you agreeing with me or arguing?


Why does it have to be either? Can't we have a discussion?

I'm agreeing with you that the helper is what matters. And I'm adding that sometimes, because of the limitation of the dogs and new helpers, that crutches can be used to the benefit of all involved. 



> I know you have to constantly change training venues so all those people clamoring to train with you can't find where you are.


Changing training venues? Changed? I got kicked out!:laugh: But that's one venue; not "venues". No need to exaggerate, the truth is fun too. But venues don't matter much to me. It's the people that I train with that matter and I have been using the same helper for the last 20 years, trained a few in the last few years and work with them on a regular basis. How many people are lucky enough to work with the same people for so long and have so many good helpers?



> Edited to add: To be clear, I didn't say the helper puts the dog on edge I said the environment. However, I have not met that many dogs who could not deal with a some of that coming from the helper. Of course, how much, depends on the dog, like I already said. However, the helper has PLENTY to do with what goes on in that situation and if the helper has nothing going on inside, the dog will not miss that fact. Then it is all for nothing.


 You said "If you have a high threshold dog, the work from the helper has to disturb the dog enough to make him a little unsure, which , in a good dog, will trigger aggression. That is when you get strong barking." Can you clarify what this means then? I'm really confused. Is there a difference between "on edge" and disturbed?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> Would someone indulge an answer to couple very basic question? Was the dog in videos 2 and 3 being trained to bark in prey? It appeared to me that he was working in prey? Is that correct?



Just like the question about "How do you teach a dog to bark?" It's just not that simple. There is far more than prey and defense.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

When was there defense? Added: Meaning, indication of defense?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well....if you wanted me to clarify THAT quote, then maybe you should have pasted it in your non-functioning quote feature!:tongue:
I already clarified it by the way.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Well....if you wanted me to clarify THAT quote, then maybe you should have pasted it in your non-functioning quote feature!:tongue:
> I already clarified it by the way.


I would gladly do so but since I don't misquote people I don't see the need.

I saw where you said that you didn't say what you said, but I didn't see a clarification. Maybe I'm a little dull. Can you point that out for me? You can even go quote yourself.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> When was there defense? Added: Meaning, indication of defense?


I'm going to make a special thread just for you. :wub:


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> I'm going to make a special thread just for you. :wub:


I feel honored.


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