# Bad Grip



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I have the following problem: 

When Diabla bites the bite is full, not only incisives, but with the molars, but the bite is way too weak. She jumps, bites and with all that energy she ricochets back and miss the tug toy or the puppy sleeve, if the sleeve is a bit too hard then she can't grab it.

I also feel tempted to say she's is a slow maturing dog, not weak nerved but sometimes too submissive, specially this last couple of months, but I'm afraid it's to make excuses to not to say Diabla is too soft and that is affecting her grip.

Nevertheless, this is the dog I have... What can I do, exercises, implements, to get more strength on the bite? 

So far the helper is working only on prey drive and I'd like to keep it that way for a bit longer. He also gave me a couple of tug toys made of fireman hose, which are more slippery to work with her during the week.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Should go to leather to work the grip. Morre pliable that anything else.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks!

Leather rag or leather tugs?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think Sue means a leather rag. However, the equipment won't matter if the helper is not working the dog correctly. It is never quite as simple as selecting the right material.... sometimes, I wish it were. 
Could be she needs a little challenge along with all the prey work. Prey work gets you a full grip, while "defense work" or bringing out some aggression in the dog, will get you a hard grip. So, the idea is to build the dog using both and achieving a balance. Sometimes, younger dogs can handle a challenge from the helper but of course, the level of threat or challenge has to be appropriate for each individual dog.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Anne,

Good catch. Need coffee...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I didn't mean to make it sound like it would not help at all. The leather will help but it will require that the helper uses it right. 

Also, you said this:



> Quote: not weak nerved but sometimes too submissive, specially this last couple of months, but I'm afraid it's to make excuses


That's not making excuses, that is understanding your dog.

However, maybe you need to take a look at her relationship with the helper. If she is also a little submissive to him, that could be causing some of your problem. Sometimes, putting the tug or sleeve on a leash and after the grip, making some distance between the helper and the dog can help her feel stronger and decrease the pressure she is feeling from the helper. Maybe where the helper pulls her toward him and then she is allowed to pull back until he gives up and then she carries it. 
It could be the helper is simply boring and not bringing her enough in drive before he gives the bite .The good grip comes before the helper ever offers the bite, meaning the dog has to be at the right drive level before the sleeve/tug is ever offered for the bite. If the dog is not loaded enough or overloaded, there is usually a problem with the grip and/or with how the dog behaves on the grip.
Females in particular, the helper has to be a little careful with some of the things they do. I have seen people try to teach the stick hits too soon without first raising some aggression in the dog and the result was a dog who would let go. Not because she was afraid of the stick but because she viewed it as a correction.The relationship with the helper was all wrong. So, like I said, take a look at that. 

Also could be time to put her up for a couple of months to allow her to mature a bit. If you are doing alot of all three phases with her, that could also be having an impact on her.

Any video?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Right now I'm working with a new helper. I stopped working protection in November precisely because I felt the previous one to be too hard on the dog and back then Diabla was not even a year old. I felt like the helper was a wall, the dog could bite, but she could never win the battle, at the most hang in there until he released the sleeve. This problem is not new, it's only that the helper I'm working with now is sensitive enough to see a problem my helper in Calama never perceived. In defense of him he only worked show dogs and for Calama standards... Diabla was a lioness, because she was the only working lines and better than their average show-line.

Is my helper here in Santiago the one who now wants to get back, to work more prey and to be more friendly with the dog, he even lays on his back while Diabla bites and let her step on him if she wants. I like the idea of putting a bit more pressure on the dog, I understand what you want is not exactly to work in defense, but I'm afraid he could be the one reluctant to put any pressure in the dog. I don't have videos now, but seeing some clips with the former helper I can see how the grip was a bit better, but also the work was done exclusively on defense drive and it was creating other sort of problems.

Now we are working only protection and put tracking and obedience on a halt (I will not have this helper very longer, so I have to use my time with him). Between sessions I'm only playing tug, and working prey, prey, prey. 

So thinking on the leather as something I may do in the meantime, it let me wondering... my helper gave me those fireman hoses she is not grasping, she bites them with a full mouth and then they slip behind the canines and she hangs in there, which I try to discourage letting her win the tug only if the bite and the fight is with a full mouth, but happens only one of every few times. May I be teaching the opposite to what a I want, frustrating the dog once and again with those hoses? Should go back to something she can grasp better and to make a habit of it before attempting to upgrade to the hoses?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Sometimes the best training is no training but that's up to you to decide that. Sometimes you just have to consider a few things and try to decide what the problem might be. That is why I offered a couple of scenarios. However, the age factor is a big one and no amount of good training can overcome what needs to happen with some maturity. 

Also, I am not exactly saying pressure the dog, just make it more of a challenge than just waving the rag around is all. Even puppies will challenge each other over an object so, what I mean is , make it a bit more of a contest. The previous helper may have created some of this in your dog. Sometimes, when a dog is worked too hard, it makes them reactive. They begin to need that strong stimulation to respond. Certainly if the helper was doing that at a young age, he could have created some of what you are seeing now. It is possible that giving her a break can help, even if you have to miss this time with the helper. If the dog is not working in the right frame of mind, either because of her age or because of the work, you are not teaching the right stuff. Young dogs, as a rule, do not have all the necessary components to work with, mainly aggression, so, there is alot of work you cannot do with a young dog. If you go ahead anyway, you do more harm than good. 

Lastly, sometimes, the handlers create problems in the way they play tug with their dogs. Most of the time, when I have worked with dogs at a club, I have told the handlers to stop playing tug and just let me work their dogs. There is a point where that needs to end and in my opinion, it is sooner than later in a dog's development. It seems that SchH people can get a bit obsessed with working on stuff that maybe they shouldn't and as a result, they create the problems.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

[/quote] Lastly, sometimes, the handlers create problems in the way they play tug with their dogs. Most of the time, when I have worked with dogs at a club, I have told the handlers to stop playing tug and just let me work their dogs. There is a point where that needs to end and in my opinion, it is sooner than later in a dog's development. It seems that SchH people can get a bit obsessed with working on stuff that maybe they shouldn't and as a result, they create the problems. [/quote]

Anne can you expound on this concept? Thanks


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Mostly because there comes a time when what the helper holds for the dog to bite should no longer be considered a toy.
I have also seen people teach some really bad behaviors not to mention, some handlers want to see the dog do things that they do with the helper , with them. That just does not work because the relationship with the handler is different, or at least it should be. Depends on how you want your dog to do protection I guess. I prefer a dog who takes it a bit more serious and brings some power and aggression to the work. It is also important , IMO, that the dog learns the right behavior on the sleeve and learns what to do when the helper puts some pressure on the dog or when the helper is trying to get away. You can't teach that as the handler, again because of the relationship, but even if you could, you would have to understand what to do where and that requires skill as a helper and at reading dogs.
I am not talking about tugs people use in obedience training, I am talking about people who use a tug or rag that a helper may use and trying to work the dog themselves.
There is a limit to what playing tug will do for the dog and you just have to know when that limit has been reached.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Thanks for that explanation. Makes the relationship and expectations clear.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Plus, as my TD puts it, he's got YEARS of experience working dogs and puppies and I don't. (He's blunt but I like that.







)

He will see things I don't and know when to push, when to back off, when to allow the bite and when not to.


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