# Bitch in heat off her game



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I have a 10 month old in her first heat. This is day 12 since she began spotting. Shes been fine in her training up until now, but today she does just not want to engage. Is this normal?


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Yep. Totally normal. She should be back to normal soon, if it's any consolation.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

She has males on her mind, not training. At this time in her heat she could very well be in her most fertile stage.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL Yup! totally normal! They get a bit of an attitude, hormonal and all.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Some bitches go through some weird changes when in heat. Some it is only the first heat. Others it is life long. Elena got flaky about gun fire with her second heat. Went away and never came back. Of course I was panicking at the time.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Today Inga is blowing off commands she knows well. She is also barking a whole lot riding around in a kennel in the back of my truck. I have not seen the wanton sex crazed lady dog behavior of climbing out of her kennel although she is actually in full on estrus now. The only suitors are nocturnal male coyotes, fortunately. 

Apparently, bitches are like mares. This is why cowboys like geldings. Mares get 'funny' for about 4 days and its every three weeks and do not work well. This is why I prefer mares myself. I identify with them.


----------



## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about it too much, I've heard it's pretty normal for females especially in their first heat to act differently, have a lack of focus, be extra vocal, extra clingy, distant, or even more focused, all depends on the dog. My girl had her first heat around 10 months too and did not have any issues training but I could tell she did not feel well at times. Too bad they can't just lay low and eat some tylenols like us humans do. I don't think in their first heat they really know what's going on yet, they just don't feel right and know something weird is going on. Mine didn't act like a hussy at all but in later heats as they mature that may change and they may have their minds completely set on finding a date. Hang in there, you're more than half way thru!


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My gals first heat was a breeze. A few weeks before her second heat she started behaving like an angsty teenager. I wanted my brave little puppy back, not this second guessing she-pup. So before her third heat she is getting spay. She had the advantage of the hormones during growth and by then will be about a 18 months old. I do hope she'll be more like her pre-heat self over time.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Whenever I hear stuff like this I kinda roll my eyes a bit. Lack of reliability because of a change like this is more of an indictment of the level of training or the methodology used than anything else.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Whenever I hear stuff like this I kinda roll my eyes a bit. Lack of reliability because of a change like this is more of an indictment of the level of training or the methodology used than anything else.


I do agree with what you're saying, which is also why I think most people who have questions like this tend to have young bitches. I'm assuming training just hasn't been proofed enough for the bitch to work through it.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is state dependent memory of course, so a dog isn't in the state of mind it's normally trained in it may struggle a bit if it is trained almost completely positive reinforcement only. Dogs with properly layered pressure behind all their commands will get the job done regardless of stuff like that.

You need a proper amount of "you have to" behind your commands. Otherwise yeah, desire to mate is pretty much a strong competing motivator that will get in the way of stuff. That kind of distraction isn't really different from a squirrel running by or something like that.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...never happened with Rorie


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Codi was good except for when she got a whiff of the stray male that was hanging around our place. She would really want to follow his scent but she would still recall good and listen once I got her attention back on me. (I used her to catch him so he could go to the shelter, hope he got a new home.)


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Kazel said:


> Codi was good except for when she got a whiff of the stray male that was hanging around our place. She would really want to follow his scent but she would still recall good and listen once I got her attention back on me. (I used her to catch him so he could go to the shelter, hope he got a new home.)


I always feel sorry when an intact male (dog) enters the "system".


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Baillif said:


> Whenever I hear stuff like this I kinda roll my eyes a bit. Lack of reliability because of a change like this is more of an indictment of the level of training or the methodology used than anything else.


No she doesn't feel well. I can tell, I am a nurse. She is off her game and this started right when she came into full on estrus. She seems distracted also- lack of focus.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> I do agree with what you're saying, which is also why I think most people who have questions like this tend to have young bitches. I'm assuming training just hasn't been proofed enough for the bitch to work through it.


 She is successfully proofed at the chaos of the dog park (when no one is in one side of the fenced area) and among running horses and flapping chickens. Since she came into her fertile period she is not engaging, she does not focus well like she usually does.

In a couple of days she will go into diestrus so we will see if she changes. In proestrus she was fine.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Baillif said:


> There is state dependent memory of course, so a dog isn't in the state of mind it's normally trained in it may struggle a bit if it is trained almost completely positive reinforcement only. Dogs with properly layered pressure behind all their commands will get the job done regardless of stuff like that.
> 
> You need a proper amount of "you have to" behind your commands. Otherwise yeah, desire to mate is pretty much a strong competing motivator that will get in the way of stuff. That kind of distraction isn't really different from a squirrel running by or something like that.


I'm not training her all positive. Its a mixture of reward and because I say so. But she is not thrilled much by rewards either in the last few days. Not sick, eats well, just wants to lay down and not engage much in training.
I think the girl wants to cut school :grin2:


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> She is successfully proofed at the chaos of the dog park (when no one is in one side of the fenced area) and among running horses and flapping chickens. Since she came into her fertile period she is not engaging, she does not focus well like she usually does.
> 
> In a couple of days she will go into diestrus so we will see if she changes. In proestrus she was fine.


This wasn't meant to be a knock on your training in any way shape or form. I also have a young intact bitch whose brains vacate the facility during her heat cycle. She's about to go into her third heat, and I can tell that since she has had to work through it before, she's having an easier time training this go around. That's all I meant. It's new to them, they don't know how to work through it yet because it's new. That is all.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I agree with Bailiff to a point. Sabi defined Bitch when in heat but we still worked her and she did fine. 
Shadow is in heat 3 times a year and gets sick just prior. This causes issues with training. Her focus is definitely off and she doesn't feel well to boot. 
I found the real issue is that she is just sluggish. Oddly in her first heat she was super attentive just a bit sharp. 
I wonder sometimes though if we do not impact focus. I know when I am outside with girls in heat my focus is a bit scattered as I am looking and listening for approaching dogs.


----------



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Hmmmm.. Mine is a real hoochie mama with my neutered male who does not know he's fixed. But training is about the same. And it is about 3X a year!!


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Just because you integrate corrections doesn't necessarily mean the pressure was applied across the behavior in a way to make it reliable all the way across the board.

Take a retrieve for instance where you want the dog to go out get an object and bring it back without chewing it in less than 15 seconds and without dropping it and they have to sit in a straight front and wait for you to take the item when they get to you.

There are several pieces to that full complete behavior and the way most people train many of those pieces might be done entirely motivationally while steps inside that behavior have pictures of trained by force behind them and those pieces that are motivational only are the pieces that fail leading to failure of the entire rest of the behavior when the dog is "off" for whatever reason.

Using a more simple behavior a sit. Dog is taught sit by luring and gets treat. Lure is faded dog still gets treat. Even if dog reliability is 90% or so with this you put prong on the dog anyway and command sit and use pressure to make the dog sit anyway. Seems unnecessary, but that layering of pressure is important for reliability. Dog learns it has to sit even if it rewarded. Then at some point dog learns it can avoid the leash pressure if it sit fast enough. Then dog learns when told sit and it doesn't it gets the leash pop or whatever as punishment for non compliance. The behavior and every piece of the behavior is negative and positive reinforced and then at the end punishment for noncompliance and then the circle is complete.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Just for clarity the pieces of that retrieve if you want a clear behavior with individual pieces that can be fixed.

1. Dog must learn to "hold"object without chewing.

2. Dog must not drop object no matter what unless told to release during duration of behavior.

3. Dog must know to get out there to the object as quickly as possible.

4 dog must return with object as quickly as possible.

5. Dog needs to know to return to a straight front.

6. Dog must know to sit with object in mouth at the end.

Every step for max reliability should have a cue be positively reinforced and negatively reinforced and punishment understood as the outcome to failure and understand what was failed at specific point of that behavior as it is all chained together.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

How the dog feels shouldn't matter really. Sick, puking, horny, sore doesn't matter. Get it done.

That being said if the dog is sick, hurt whatever rest em, but the reliability should still be there.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When my bitches go in heat, I put them on the shelf and work another dog. No biggie. I don't want to have to take the diaper off, walk her to the car, put the diaper on, drive her to wherever we are training, then take the diaper off until we get in the building. pure laziness. And it works just fine for us. 

Joy is currently in heat, and if you didn't see blood, then you wouldn't know it. That is the way most of them are. Some might be a little more clingy or want to sleep all night in the bed, instead of until they are too hot. And sometimes they will get snarkier with the other bitches. I see this as normal and keep interface to zero.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Baillif said:


> How the dog feels shouldn't matter really. Sick, puking, horny, sore doesn't matter. Get it done.
> 
> That being said if the dog is sick, hurt whatever rest em, but the reliability should still be there.


Doesn't matter? I don't want someone else's sick dog around mine. What if it's contagious? My vet has told me if the dog is ill, don't work him. Keep him home and quiet. When he has pano, don't let him walk much and stop training. Someone else told me not to stop training for any reason, just don't be so intense. I am worried that working a dog who is not feeling well will make it worse or will ruin training. 

Can you explain exactly what you mean? When would you give the dog a break from training? When would you not? If a dog is seriously not interested, not focusing, not learning, isn't that the time to stop?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In heat isn't sick, could be uncomfortable, could effect temperament and behavior. Every bitch is different. Yes, they can be worked when they are in heat, and perhaps the exercise is better for them. Certainly through pregnancy, they can be worked. I would definitely scale back the work and the expectations. 

Having a bitch in heat during a class is actually a great distraction for her male counterparts, and THEY should be kept on task, and expected to work through her major distraction. 

But yeah, a dog that is injured or ill should not be worked.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Being in heat can be more than uncomfortable, it can be downright painful and exhausting. I am not a dog but I have been injured, ill and in heat. Any dog experiencing any of those needs to be cut some slack.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Doesn't matter? I don't want someone else's sick dog around mine. What if it's contagious? My vet has told me if the dog is ill, don't work him. Keep him home and quiet. When he has pano, don't let him walk much and stop training. Someone else told me not to stop training for any reason, just don't be so intense. I am worried that working a dog who is not feeling well will make it worse or will ruin training.
> 
> Can you explain exactly what you mean? When would you give the dog a break from training? When would you not? If a dog is seriously not interested, not focusing, not learning, isn't that the time to stop?


I'm saying that it shouldn't seriously affect reliability of a behavior unless it's a physical hinderance. I'm not saying work the dog through injury or severe illness.

Crank gets to the point he's not interested and not wanting to work he is probably dying. I've worked him through injury if it's superficial. I have to travel to get bitework so I've wrapped superficially lacerated paws and worked him anyway before on 2 separate occasions and there's been at least one trip where he was off feed and occasionally vomiting what he did try to get down, but he was still working and still biting well through all that. Dog is a soldier though. It's been a judgement call but if he gets a superficial injury or sickness and I've already dropped money on plane tickets to cali or something I'll probably pull the trigger and monitor him as I go. 

I would never do anything to risk long term injury of the dog. I do make judgement calls though. Obviously if the dog is too sick to work I wouldn't work the dog, but I wouldn't do something silly like pull a dog from a trial because of cold tail or something like that.


----------



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Just for clarity the pieces of that retrieve if you want a clear behavior with individual pieces that can be fixed.
> 
> 1. Dog must learn to "hold"object without chewing.
> 
> ...


A question regarding correcting for parts of this. How do you correct for: Numbers 3 and 4 unless you are using an ecollar?


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Baliff you are obviously an experience trainer. Please explain this-
" There are several pieces to that full complete behavior and the way most people train many of those pieces might be done entirely motivationally while steps inside that behavior have pictures of trained by force behind them and those pieces that are motivational only are the pieces that fail leading to failure of the entire rest of the behavior when the dog is "off" for whatever reason."

We already do this- She just does not want to do anything right now. She just wants to sniff where coyotes have peed and lie down.

" Using a more simple behavior a sit. Dog is taught sit by luring and gets treat. Lure is faded dog still gets treat. Even if dog reliability is 90% or so with this you put prong on the dog anyway and command sit and use pressure to make the dog sit anyway. Seems unnecessary, but that layering of pressure is important for reliability. Dog learns it has to sit even if it rewarded. Then at some point dog learns it can avoid the leash pressure if it sit fast enough. Then dog learns when told sit and it doesn't it gets the leash pop or whatever as punishment for non compliance. The behavior and every piece of the behavior is negative and positive reinforced and then at the end punishment for noncompliance and then the circle is complete. "


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Being in heat can be more than uncomfortable, it can be downright painful and exhausting. I am not a dog but I have been injured, ill and in heat. Any dog experiencing any of those needs to be cut some slack.


I am not sure if we can actually compare a menstral cycle to being in heat. We're two different critters. There may be similarities. They get bitchy, some of them, so do we. And bitchiness can be a symptom of pain. I don't know that they get the bloating and cramping we get though. They can be quite intent on getting connected during their cycle. I don't know that we have the same inner workings. I think we are comparing apples to oranges, or at least oranges to tangerines. 

And, most of us work and function throughout our cycles, however painful and exhausting they are. 

My dogs are lucky, I do put them on the shelf and cut them slack.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

gsdluvr said:


> A question regarding correcting for parts of this. How do you correct for: Numbers 3 and 4 unless you are using an ecollar?


I first build drive making it gamey but there comes a point where I'll cue the sending them out for it and with a prong and leash pressure them in the direction of the item. Not dragging them but guiding them to be fast with poppy leash pressure. They get there and pick it up pressure stops. Then cue for the return or just prong them back toward me to the straight front and sit and pressure goes away. That is why it is important to teach that clear forced hold under pressure because the dog needs to be able to hold that retrieve item while being pronged back toward you and into the sit. Most dogs want to drop the item when under leash pressure from a prong and you have to train them to continue to hold. You can layer the prong or leash pressure with the ecollar if you want, but it isn't necessary. To get a nice close front sit without any other physical cues sometimes it helps to have a partner standing behind you that can work the prong and leash to make sure the dog gets to you at the proper distance. One of the mistakes people sometimes make is the dog stops too far out and the person takes a step back and the dog follows gets closer and sits but that doesn't teach the dog to have incentive to stop at proper distance.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd really have to see the dog to make a clear determination of what is going on and how it should be approached for that particular dog. Maybe the issue was the dog wasn't properly motivated before and is very very unmotivated now because of the distractions now. If that was the case telling you to punish or correct won't help, drive would need to be built to where you have the proper spirit of the exercise, and then you could correct other issues.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I am not sure if we can actually compare a menstral cycle to being in heat. We're two different critters. There may be similarities. They get bitchy, some of them, so do we. And bitchiness can be a symptom of pain. I don't know that they get the bloating and cramping we get though. They can be quite intent on getting connected during their cycle. I don't know that we have the same inner workings. I think we are comparing apples to oranges, or at least oranges to tangerines.
> 
> And, most of us work and function throughout our cycles, however painful and exhausting they are.
> 
> My dogs are lucky, I do put them on the shelf and cut them slack.


Relax Sue, I forgot to put the smiley on the end. :smile2:


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Relax Sue, I forgot to put the smiley on the end. :smile2:


See why punctuation matters?


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I'm not sure the comparison of the human female menstrual cycle can be compared to the heat cycle of other mammals. It must be fairly close, considering the physical signs. But who knows? 

Psychologically for dogs it must be similar to the heat cycle of mares. Most mares get bitchy, they do not want to work and are less willing. And then, (fortunately) they change- just like women :wink2:


----------



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Baillif said:


> I'd really have to see the dog to make a clear determination of what is going on and how it should be approached for that particular dog. Maybe the issue was the dog wasn't properly motivated before and is very very unmotivated now because of the distractions now. If that was the case telling you to punish or correct won't help, drive would need to be built to where you have the proper spirit of the exercise, and then you could correct other issues.





Baillif said:


> I first build drive making it gamey but there comes a point where I'll cue the sending them out for it and with a prong and leash pressure them in the direction of the item. Not dragging them but guiding them to be fast with poppy leash pressure. They get there and pick it up pressure stops. Then cue for the return or just prong them back toward me to the straight front and sit and pressure goes away. That is why it is important to teach that clear forced hold under pressure because the dog needs to be able to hold that retrieve item while being pronged back toward you and into the sit. Most dogs want to drop the item when under leash pressure from a prong and you have to train them to continue to hold. You can layer the prong or leash pressure with the ecollar if you want, but it isn't necessary. To get a nice close front sit without any other physical cues sometimes it helps to have a partner standing behind you that can work the prong and leash to make sure the dog gets to you at the proper distance. One of the mistakes people sometimes make is the dog stops too far out and the person takes a step back and the dog follows gets closer and sits but that doesn't teach the dog to have incentive to stop at proper distance.


Very interesting:smile2:


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah sport commands for a sport like IPO have to be heavy on the motivation before you start singing them otherwise you run the risk of it not looking peppy enough for the judges. We don't really have that issue in ringsport so things can be a bit more compulsion based. Pet commands for me are more compulsion based. Get it done and don't expect reward for it kind of stuff. Doesn't mean they never get rewarded they just don't expect it.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Reflecting on my bitch's first heat....it was a noted difference in her behavior....but more toward the social side...clingy I guess with a helping of bitchiness when we trained.

As far as training.....I needed to get her ramped up a bit more to captivate her attention......could have been age or first heat.....but there was a marked difference....just did what was necessary. The very first post I made in this forum was sensitive to this exact question....and here was my question back then............." Also, is it somewhat typical of bitches in heat to display behavioral changes outside of their interaction with other dogs...such as being a bit obstinate?"


SuperG


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Another thing I notice with my girl is she has become a licker. Her licking of me has really increased. She licks my leg, hands and arms. I don't let her lick my face.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Lol, I can certainly tell you that I myself don't want to go to work when my uterus feels like it's trying to take over my body. Maybe the men just can't really understand ;-)

I don't remember if my current intact female initially reacted more poorly in training, but I do remember her vomiting at the start of her first heat cycle. Working a literally sick dog just to "get it done" is unfair to me, especially considering she's a sport dog and we do this for fun. Generally though, she works the same in heat. Every once in a while I can see something in her behavior that I can attribute to her hormones, but overall she seems to have adapted completely the older she gets.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> Lol, I can certainly tell you that I myself don't want to go to work when my uterus feels like it's trying to take over my body. Maybe the men just can't really understand ;-)
> 
> Every once in a while I can see something in her behavior that I can attribute to her hormones, but overall she seems to have adapted completely the older she gets.


I think this key, As They Get Older. They learn that they will get through it and deal with it. Or at least that is my observation of other people's dogs. Mine is still a youngster.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If it's anything like people, even super high drive humans do have some issues with performance during the menstrual cycle. With my dogs, I see more behavioral changes, rather than physical issues, during the heat cycles. they are still very able to work, there is just some quirkiness. I also notice some funny behaviors about when pups would be due, around 8 weeks after the heat cycle is over. It's not false pregnancy, but it certainly is something to do with expecting pups.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

GatorDog said:


> Lol, I can certainly tell you that I myself don't want to go to work when my uterus feels like it's trying to take over my body. Maybe the men just can't really understand ;-)
> 
> I don't remember if my current intact female initially reacted more poorly in training, but I do remember her vomiting at the start of her first heat cycle. Working a literally sick dog just to "get it done" is unfair to me, especially considering she's a sport dog and we do this for fun. Generally though, she works the same in heat. Every once in a while I can see something in her behavior that I can attribute to her hormones, but overall she seems to have adapted completely the older she gets.


Do you mean in the first 10 days, full on estrus or the last 10 days?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Do you mean in the first 10 days, full on estrus or the last 10 days?


I don't understand this statement. A bitch's cycle is individual. Are you saying 10 days in, day of ovulation, ten days out? Bitches will act differently during standing heat, which can actually happen at any time, but often happens sometime in the middle. 

But they can often act weird before any blood, if I had a nickel for every time a breeder said in training, I wonder if she is coming into heat. Sure enough, the next week the bitch is not there because she is in heat. 

The progesterone is the same whether the bitch is bred or not, so it is not strange that some bitches experience a false pregnancy, while others may act differently approximately 9 weeks after some point in her heat cycle. The hormones required for whelping and raising a litter must be huge. She knows everything instinctively, big job, careful. It is really amazing.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

selzer said:


> I don't understand this statement. A bitch's cycle is individual. Are you saying 10 days in, day of ovulation, ten days out? Bitches will act differently during standing heat, which can actually happen at any time, but often happens sometime in the middle.
> 
> But they can often act weird before any blood, if I had a nickel for every time a breeder said in training, I wonder if she is coming into heat. Sure enough, the next week the bitch is not there because she is in heat.
> 
> The progesterone is the same whether the bitch is bred or not, so it is not strange that some bitches experience a false pregnancy, while others may act differently approximately 9 weeks after some point in her heat cycle. The hormones required for whelping and raising a litter must be huge. She knows everything instinctively, big job, careful. It is really amazing.


 This is how I was taught

Proestrus- about 10 days. This is when they have red spotting and males come a courtin
but the bitch is not interested. 
Esrtrus- about a week or less. Discharge is now clear or serous. The fertile period when she WANTS IT BAD. Many will try to escape to join their suitors.
Diestrus- another 10 days or so. They are still wearing their perfume but are not interested in males.

The only intact males we have around here are coyotes. I have a friend who lives in west Texas. Their GSD bitch was out at night in their fenced yard. They turned on the lights and there was a very embarrassed coyote in a compromised position. He was (ahem) unable to leave the yard.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nurse Bishop said:


> This is how I was taught
> 
> Proestrus- about 10 days. This is when they have red spotting and males come a courtin
> but the bitch is not interested.
> ...


Well, I have had bitches that need to be bred by day six, and others that are toward the middle of the cycle. The reason AI can be expensive is that if you are using frozen semen, or having it surgically implanted, you need to know the date of ovulation. If you know you will need a c-section, knowing the day of ovulation is huge. So you do progesterone testing every other day. If you know approximately when the bitch ovulates, you may be able to wait a week. But my vet charges $100 for each progesterone test. Puppies are born 63 days after ovulation. But that isn't necessarily when the bitch is bred. The sperm can live up to 7 days

My friend swore she had a bitch that had to be bred prior to any bleeding. Then she would have a full heat cycle and would then produce a litter. She was breeding for over 50 years, she had another bitch that was bred on day 28 and had her only litter. When managing a bitch, you cannot count on generic timing schemes.


----------



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

selzer said:


> Well, I have had bitches that need to be bred by day six, and others that are toward the middle of the cycle. The reason AI can be expensive is that if you are using frozen semen, or having it surgically implanted, you need to know the date of ovulation. If you know you will need a c-section, knowing the day of ovulation is huge. So you do progesterone testing every other day. If you know approximately when the bitch ovulates, you may be able to wait a week. But my vet charges $100 for each progesterone test. Puppies are born 63 days after ovulation. But that isn't necessarily when the bitch is bred. The sperm can live up to 7 days
> 
> My friend swore she had a bitch that had to be bred prior to any bleeding. Then she would have a full heat cycle and would then produce a litter. She was breeding for over 50 years, she had another bitch that was bred on day 28 and had her only litter. When managing a bitch, you cannot count on generic timing schemes.


Can you rely on a male and the tie being the correct time? Or can they tie if she's not at the perfect fertility day?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

gsdluvr said:


> Can you rely on a male and the tie being the correct time? Or can they tie if she's not at the perfect fertility day?


You can rely on a tie if you were not intending to breed the bitch. It's Murphy's Law. If some crazy stray manages to go over three fences and through a wall to get to your bitch, then she will be pregnant. If you did progesterone testing, driven 1000 miles, and paid a small fortune for the perfect stud dog for your bitch, well..... a tie, or 2 ties 2 days apart, well, I'd give it a 50/50 shot. 

Really, some stud dogs will breed a bitch if she is ready or not. Usually when the bitch is flagging and the dog is performing, the time is right. Usually.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Well, here is what Inga did today as she is going out of receptivity. I have been working on livestock avoidance. She rode for the first time in a one wheel wheelbarrow and past flocks of loose chickens and mother cow with baby calf without even looking at them. Her focus and engagement seems to be returning.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Well, here is what Inga did today as she is going out of receptivity. I have been working on livestock avoidance. She rode for the first time in a one wheel wheelbarrow and past flocks of loose chickens and mother cow with baby calf without even looking at them. Her focus and engagement seems to be returning.


A wheelbarrow?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A wheelbarrow?


Why?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Why?


I don't know, but if that is how he treats his women in heat..... >


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know, but if that is how he treats his women in heat..... >


Is Nurse Bishop a dude? Ah the stereotypes! And my brother is a nurse, LOL!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Is Nurse Bishop a dude? Ah the stereotypes! And my brother is a nurse, LOL!


I am not sure but with his philosophy on bitches in heat I am thinking so.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It would not be fun if women came into season just twice a year.

Bit less PMS though.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> It would not be fun if women came into season just twice a year.
> 
> Bit less PMS though.


I think the number of women guilty of violent assaults and murder would increase if this crap lasted 3 weeks... Then again, maybe it would be easier to endure if you thought it would be six months before it showed up again. Once again it proves how much easier guys have it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Three weeks? Oh no! Not that!


----------

