# Newbie here: Anyone have a NON agressive GSD? Need advice BEFORE buying one :)



## cleo2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Hi everyone, so glad I found this forum!

First of all, I'm a BIG fond of the GSD and think it is the absolute BEST dog there is! I've had 3 PB in the past and there were all awsome dogs.

I haven't had one in over 10 years now and am considering buying a new one (already found a very reliable, professional breeder that seems great) but things in life have changed and I have to admit I am a little worried about certain aspects of owning a GSD again. I want to do the responsible thing and make sure we are able to deal with it BEFORE bringing one home.

So, basically, while I've owned 3 in the pasts, those were before we had kids and before we moved to this typical middle class neighborhood where houses are close to each other, lots of kids running in and out of the yard (we can only have an invisible fence, not the real ones) and people come up to the door frequently (mail, scouts, etc.)... will a GSD fit in to this?? I guess my main concern is ending up with an agressive dog that will charge/attack people it doesn't know (and after reading this forum for some days, perhaps even at people it does know??) and that really worries me.

To clarify, we previouly lived in the country setting where the dogs could just run around and hardly ever did someone just come up to the door (at least not people we didn't know), so we never had these concerns in the past. This is a different neighborhood and while I really, deeply, sincerely want a GSD, I worry about dealing with a dog that will become a liability and concern for us and people around us. Please don't flame me for this, I'm here to get some honest advise.

So, bottom line - Has anyone been able to socialize their GSD enough to become non agressive towards strangers? I mean, barking is ok (and expected), but we just can't have any type of agression. I am also aware of the whole debate regarding invisible fences - They keep the dog in but won't keep people out - and I completely understand this which is a part of my concern.

I am still hoping we can work it out. If I buy from a reputable breeder, who puts emphasis on temprament just as much as looks, and if I socialize it daily for months (planning on getting a 8-10 week old so we can start right away) - any chance I can have an even tempered, friendly GSD or is the stranger agression inevitable? I can train the dog to behave while it is indoors (not run to the door when people come etc) but can it learn to respect strangers and not be agressive towards them when it is outdoors?

Sorry for the long post. I have been debating this for weeks. I am worried I will have to compromise on my favorite breed and get another dog, but none are as intelligent, loyal or impresive as the GSD.. Please advice and thank you for reading through all this!

Sharon.

Attached is a picture of my previous GSD, Sandy and Spike, German champion bloodlines - He was a just a big friendly overgrown pup, she was the smartest and most obedient dog (while slightly agressive towards men) you could ever find  ♥♥♥


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

To answer your question, NO GSD should be charging or biting strangers just for entering your home or coming to your home. A well bred dog will only charge or bite to a threat. Socialization is important for the pup to learn what is normal behavior and what isn't. There are thousands of breeders out there, and many of those are breeding unstable GSDs. This is why you're seeing the issues that you're seeing posted here. If you have a truly well bred dog, even messing up some socialization won't disturb the dog's behavior. Temperament should be the number one concern when breeding. So be careful of where you get your dog from, and you should be fine. I have a Pug and a mutt that bark at everything. Grim doesn't get it. He acts confused. His genetics say if it's not a threat, you don't alert. He has NO reaction to someone coming into my house. Granted, he's still a pup. However, what I'm seeing is his general, raw genetic make up. There are others with pups my age who already are seeing barking at strangers or barking at someone at the door. It's more of a challenge today to find a good shepherd than it was 20 years ago. That's just the truth. 

I've seen people here post that if you've got people that are going to come into your yard and in and out of your house, then a GSD may not be right for you. My answer to that is bologna! If you can't have people in your yard or home, you've got training to do or you have a poorly bred dog. My first GSD was also like this when he was young. If I didn't have an issue, he didn't have an issue. As it should be. You're right to have concerns, but it's not the breed that's an issue, it's the breeders.


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## .:Forever:. (Oct 24, 2012)

Hi there and welcome!  
Well, it is very possible. First, we live in the same type of area you do and I have two German shepherds- however our yard is fenced in. 
It really, really depends on what _type_ of personality you want. For you, I would suggest a calm, shy and sweet female. It's not impossible- that just described my white female.  She's about 8 mos and very calm, not exremely social by loves to play, loyal and obedient. We got her from a breeder in North Carolina.
But anyways, a shy or calmer female shepherd would best suit your inviornment- HOWEVER. if you have the time and energy, you could choose a well bred, high prey drive dog as well, but you would have to train them. Every day for a long period of time. When at the puppy stage, keep them on a long lead line and make sure they do not go out of the yard- or start the invisible fence. 
It's really your decision, the high driven and strong willed take much more time and really need you to be Consistant- however, the lower energy and not really caring kind would take less and really be best for your situation since you have no fence. 

And if you can, test the puppy out. Ask the breeder if you can try her out for a few days, get to know her personality level- however, a puppy will be a puppy... And in my puppy's case, the shy relaxed girl, she doesn't leave your sight.  
Hope that helps you!


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

cleo2012 said:


> Hi everyone, so glad I found this forum!
> 
> First of all, I'm a BIG fond of the GSD and think it is the absolute BEST dog there is! I've had 3 PB in the past and there were all awsome dogs.
> 
> ...


Suggested reads:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
Puppy Socialization is part of Training a Puppy (applies to all pups)


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

.:Forever:. said:


> Hi there and welcome!
> Well, it is very possible. First, we live in the same type of area you do and I have two German shepherds- however our yard is fenced in.
> It really, really depends on what _type_ of personality you want. For you, I would suggest a calm, shy and sweet female. It's not impossible- that just described my white female.  She's about 8 mos and very calm, not exremely social by loves to play, loyal and obedient. We got her from a breeder in North Carolina.
> But anyways, a shy or calmer female shepherd would best suit your inviornment- HOWEVER. if you have the time and energy, you could choose a well bred, high prey drive dog as well, but you would have to train them. Every day for a long period of time. When at the puppy stage, keep them on a long lead line and make sure they do not go out of the yard- or start the invisible fence.
> ...


I'm not sure "shy" is a good attribute. Relaxed, laid back sure but shy to me means some what fearful and you def don't want a fearful dog. Confidence is part of a stable temperament, I think. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## .:Forever:. (Oct 24, 2012)

The breeder and SAR team we got her from told us that it's basically not 'shy' if she goes back to the thing that she was frightened of to find out what it was. She is definitely confident in herself, just more mellow than most Shepherds- which is what she needs in a Shepherd...I would say.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

> So, bottom line - *Has anyone been able to socialize their GSD enough to become non agressive towards strangers? *I mean, barking is ok (and expected), but we just can't have any type of agression.





> *I guess my main concern is ending up with an agressive dog that will charge/attack people it doesn't know *(and after reading this forum for some days, perhaps even at people it does know??) and that really worries me.





> any chance I can have an even tempered, friendly GSD *or is the stranger agression inevitable?*


I am finding your post and in particular the topic question a bit odd. You mentioned having owned 3 GSDs in the past... where they all aggressive towards strangers? Is this why you are concerned about living in a more built up area? 

And any breed can be potentially dangerous if they are not sound genetically and/or properly trained and socialized as stated. A different environment will not mitigate that behaviour. 

Certainly most of us here have/had non-aggressive GSDs and they wouldn't be recognized as the second most popular breed if this was an inherent trait. Plus the topics here would all be focused on why this breed is banned. 

Maybe I'm missing something ..lol


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

.:Forever:. said:


> Hi there and welcome!
> Well, it is very possible. First, we live in the same type of area you do and I have two German shepherds- however our yard is fenced in.
> It really, really depends on what _type_ of personality you want. For you, I would suggest a calm, shy and sweet female. It's not impossible- that just described my white female.  She's about 8 mos and very calm, not exremely social by loves to play, loyal and obedient. We got her from a breeder in North Carolina.
> But anyways, a shy or calmer female shepherd would best suit your inviornment- HOWEVER. if you have the time and energy, you could choose a well bred, high prey drive dog as well, but you would have to train them. Every day for a long period of time. When at the puppy stage, keep them on a long lead line and make sure they do not go out of the yard- or start the invisible fence.
> ...


This is NOT breed standard, and not at all what I would recommend. I would be very afraid of a shy shepherd, because that's where you end up a lot of times with a fear aggressive dog. Most of the aggression issues posted here are from fear aggressive dogs. You want a totally confident dog. The breed standard is posted here somewhere.... reading it and making sure that any breeder you go to is breeding to that standard is a must. There are some really good breeders around. PM Cliffson1 to get a heads up on who to go to, etc. You'll know you're getting a stable dog.


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## .:Forever:. (Oct 24, 2012)

Jag said:


> This is NOT breed standard, and not at all what I would recommend. I would be very afraid of a shy shepherd, because that's where you end up a lot of times with a fear aggressive dog. Most of the aggression issues posted here are from fear aggressive dogs. You want a totally confident dog. The breed standard is posted here somewhere.... reading it and making sure that any breeder you go to is breeding to that standard is a must. There are some really good breeders around. PM Cliffson1 to get a heads up on who to go to, etc. You'll know you're getting a stable dog.



I don't think you read my last post... e.e 
But anyways, what I was suggesting would be more of a relaxed dog- and not so hyper as most Shepherds are- trust me, I've had three already. 
I guess shy wasn't the word to use. :/ However, no matter what kind of Shepherd she gets she will always have to put time and effort into them. I do know not all German shepherd are going to be the 'standard.' Not all are the same, everyone of them is different. They will have their own quirks, disabilities and not every one is going to stand perfectly up to the breed standard. 
Your right on one, however most of dog attacking/snapping comes from fear and so you do want a more stable, confident dog--


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

None of my GSDs have been aggressive toward strangers. Yes, they will bark when someone drives up or comes to the door, but if I'm okay with it, they're ok with it.

Aggression toward strangers is not part of the standard. GSDs are supposed to be aloof to strangers. Meaning neutral. If the stranger is aggressive, then the dog should counter it, but normal people minding their own business? The dog should not pay them any mind. Yes, the GSD should be protective, but only if there is a genuine threat to protect from, and a stable, well-socialized dog will know the difference.

Much depends on socialization and training, but if you have a dog with a stable, confident, strong-nerved temperament, you should not have any problems if you raise the dog as part of your family and local community.

Granted, there are a LOT of poorly-bred GSDs out there. When a dog displays aggression toward a neutral stranger minding their own business, that aggressiveness is usually born out of fear. The dog is fearful of strangers, and finds that aggression will make people back off, so he learns to use this to his advantage. Even a poorly-bred GSD isn't stupid. But there are an awful lot of people who will breed two fear-aggressive GSDs together because they think the dogs are being "protective" and "loyal".

The most important thing is to choose your breeder wisely. Make sure they breed for correct temperament, and that the dogs on the premises have good temperament. Yes, they will probably bark when you pull up, but a word from the owner and the dogs should not bother you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Hyper is not the standard, either.
OP -- sounds to me as though you had some GSDs with not the best of temperaments.
A good one will alert if someone comes in, but will stop when prompted by the owner.
Stick around, find out where to get a good, healthy, stable GSD and then put the time into some serious training.
You could very well end up with the best dog you've ever had.


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## cleo2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

FrankieC said:


> I am finding your post and in particular the topic question a bit odd. You mentioned having owned 3 GSDs in the past... where they all aggressive towards strangers? Is this why you are concerned about living in a more built up area?
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something ..lol


LOL, no - on the contrary! Sandy, my first GSD was the only one who showed a bit of agression.. However, I was only 14 years old when I got her and didn't know as much about socialization and such so this was probably my own fault...The GSDs I had as an adult were both very friendly and greeted everyone coming to the house with wagging tails and licking. 

So, no - I've actually had GOOD expeiences in the past! However, fast foward to now having family, kids, living in a different type neighborhood - I've been telling people we plan to get a GSD and I get those "oh, no, scary" type of reactions it made me think perhaps I just got really lucky with my previous dogs?? I started reading everything online, and to be honest, got a little worried seeing they were currenly placed on the top 10 list of 'most agressive dog breeds' and such, not to mention all the agression filled posts on this forum and others - espacially those about the "kind and friendly GS who've seen this particular neighbor walk by their house a hundreds times and then suddenly decided to attack". That scares me, thinking they are not nearly as reliable as I thought. And all the "never leave dog with kids alone" posts..?? I've never worried about this before (never had to!) until I started reading posts.. because unless the dog follows me to each and every room, it will most likely be somewhere with one of the kids.. what happened to good old GSD? Can they really not be trusted anymore? it's only been 12 years since I had my previous one, and while we didn't have kids yet, I was never concerned with her around other kids.

I truely want to believe that what I've been reading in the replies so far, about buying from a good breeder and investing time in socialization and training (I'm commited to all three) is the answer and that agression does not have to be the norm.

Hope this clarify things a bit. Thank you for replying to my post


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

.:Forever:. said:


> I don't think you read my last post... e.e
> But anyways, what I was suggesting would be more of a relaxed dog- and not so hyper as most Shepherds are- trust me, I've had three already.
> I guess shy wasn't the word to use. :/ However, no matter what kind of Shepherd she gets she will always have to put time and effort into them. *I do know not all German shepherd are going to be the 'standard.' *Not all are the same, everyone of them is different. They will have their own quirks, disabilities and not every one is going to stand perfectly up to the breed standard.
> Your right on one, however most of dog attacking/snapping comes from fear and so you do want a more stable, confident dog--


Therein lies the problem. Not talking about quirks or other things that separate one dog from another, just the general breed standard. Some breeders breed for sport ability. Some breed for "companion" ability, etc. When you do that, IMO, you lose something else. Usually soundness. Any good shepherd should be able to settle in the house. Even high drive. My thought on it is this. If someone thinks that the breed standard is too much dog for them, and they want a 'calm' dog (I'm talking more than the breed standard of having an off switch) then maybe this isn't the right breed for them. Shepherds aren't supposed to be 'hyper'. They have drive... but should settle in the house as long as their natural drive is met with exercise and mental stimulation. You can go to a good working line breeder and say you want the pup in the litter with the least amount of drive and still have a dog that's breed standard. However, there are many breeders out there who are breeding FOR "companion dogs" that have gone way off standard... and that's not a good thing. For those that want this type of dog, a shepherd probably isn't for them.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

cleo2012 said:


> LOL, no - on the contrary! Sandy, my first GSD was the only one who showed a bit of agression.. However, I was only 14 years old when I got her and didn't know as much about socialization and such so this was probably my own fault...The GSDs I had as an adult were both very friendly and greeted everyone coming to the house with wagging tails and licking.
> 
> So, no - I've actually had GOOD expeiences in the past! However, fast foward to now having family, kids, living in a different type neighborhood - I've been telling people we plan to get a GSD and I get those "oh, no, scary" type of reactions it made me think perhaps I just got really lucky with my previous dogs?? I started reading everything online, and to be honest, got a little worried seeing they were currenly placed on the top 10 list of 'most agressive dog breeds' and such, not to mention all the agression filled posts on this forum and others - espacially those about the "kind and friendly GS who've seen this particular neighbor walk by their house a hundreds times and then suddenly decided to attack". That scares me, thinking they are not nearly as reliable as I thought. And all the "never leave dog with kids alone" posts..?? I've never worried about this before (never had to!) until I started reading posts.. because unless the dog follows me to each and every room, it will most likely be somewhere with one of the kids.. what happened to good old GSD? Can they really not be trusted anymore? it's only been 12 years since I had my previous one, and while we didn't have kids yet, I was never concerned with her around other kids.
> 
> ...


I know exactly what you mean. I trusted all my GSDs around my kids. The only issues were the puppy teeth being sharp and possibly knocking down small kids. The problem now is the breeders. If you go with a truly good breeder, and you take care of the pup on your end, you shouldn't have the issues you read about with aggression and fear. I am very disappointed right now with the state of things. However, when people don't care... that's what happens. After my last experience with a shepherd (from German imports, titled, etc.) I was done with the West German lines. However, that's not really fair, I guess. It depends on the breeder. Anyway, I went with Czech lines, and I'm happy. The difference already is just... wow. Anyway, you CAN find a good pup. You just have to be way more careful than what you have been in the past breeder wise. It's sad.


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## britishmaid (Sep 29, 2012)

Shadow does bark at strangers or he just sits and watches them intently if he's out. He shows no aggression like nipping or going for them at all but how much barking is OK and how much indicates a trait? If someone comes in to the house, he might bark once or twice but then he's friendly, albeit aloof and a little tentative. He's still only 3 months old and just had his second round so we are going to start with the socialization. He met another dog on a short walk this afternoon, barked at first but then wanted to play once the other dog (a senior) had walked on by.

Does anyone see anything to be concerned about?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

GSD's are an aggressive breed but unless they have a temperament problem it can be controlled.

I will say though, that mine are from different working line breeders and neither one is all wiggly and happy with strangers.
They are also well aware of the property line.

When I'm home they are o.k. with people but don't interact much if at all with strangers.

If I were not home then you would have to be an idiot to come on the property with them and I honestly have no idea what they would do.

I think the idea of overcoming characteristics with socialization is highly over rated. If a dog is aggressive toward people for whatever reason, flooding that dog with up close and personal interactions with people could just backfire.

I would not leave kids or strangers unattended with either of my dogs.

People see the breed standard differently.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Really if you are in any doubts, DON'T get a GS!! there are enough in shelters and rehomed at 12-18 months. If you are willing to work and train!! and that means the whole family is on the same page and even the youngest kids must know how to be boss and control. Dogs are not controlled by force but intelligence. The dog wants to please, pick very carefully where you get your pup, or better yet a rescue would be best, you would be over the crazy puppy stage, dog would be house trained, and often they can tell the temperment and help with any issues..

If you decide you must have a pup, go to the breeders, ask for PROOF the animals have certified hips, that means xrays have been taken, the results have been sent into OFA and you can see the certificate, write down the # and verify when you get home on the web site. ASk to meet all of their dogs, not just the mom but everyone they own, that will help to show what type of temperment they have and also the level of training control the owner has. ask for proof of titles, people who have earned them are very proud, for a pet you might want to ensure they do something with the dog's brain!!! 

You must also be prepared for lots of long walks, don't count on a dog park, chances are the other dogs might attack your pup, and when he si an adult, she will retaliate..She will need training classes, one after another, depending on the kids ages, my kids lovign doing agility with my dogs, and it really creates a bond and the dog really learns to watch and listen to the child..

If you go the rescue way, you will still bond and so will the dog, the agility/obedience classes are still done, no matter how well trained, it teaches each what the other expects...and the kids will have a blast. My kids grew up with dogs, lots of them, we had a revolving door to friends, we never had an issue, and the ONLY hint of aggression was when a visitor's boy friend got too pushy, and the dog got on the couch pushing between them and he stared at the pushy BF, until he got up and left...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

buy from a reputable breeder. spend the time
training and socializing, puppy class, OB, etc.
and you'll have the type of dog you want.
it's up to you and your family to raise the dog to be
the type of dog you want and if you don't wind up
with the type of dog you want it's you and your family
fault.


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## drag0nsfli (Oct 22, 2012)

I have only owned one prior gsd,had to say goodbye not long ago, fell in love with the breed because of her and finally broke down and have new pup now, but one that I spent alot of money on assuring her health, dna, all of it as i do not want to go through ever again what I did with my shepherd and her breed related illnesses.

What I will say is that I had no experience,did not know anything about specifics of the german shepherd breed, did everything I am sure wrong w her,she was dangerously aggressive w strangers,made us nervous,liability so began putting her up with strangers, major mistake for socialization.She loved children, other animals, people she knew, but strangers coming to door,or in vicinity of house,trying to take her to vet,all a very bad scene. She had to be muzzled, even w me, trying to cut her nails,just because she just didnt want to do it. 

She was hard to deal with,even with me, she was boss, actually had to make very expensive arrangements for her when she was/became ill as she was a fear biter for sure, and she did not do well being told what to do at times, trying to move her from door when she wanted to stay there, or cut her darn toenails, was a nightmare.

she was sweet and very temperamental at same time and was the hardest to deal w dog I have ever had. She also carried mutated blue gene, some say predisposes to genetic faults, I think it was my fault and mine alone. I was even boastful of her, the "noone is getting in my house" kinda thing,and she did make me feel safe in my surroundings, which i do miss. BUT

You cannot own a possible 100lb plus protective breed dog without proper knowledge, training and perserverance, and if you do not have the knowledge to train yourself, you hire someone to teach you or do it for you, which is exactly what I intend to do, so much of the bad wrap w shepherds,rottweilers is clueless mishandling owners, and I was one.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I haven't even heard my dog's big dog bark yet and she is one. Yeah, she barks when she is playing with the cats or when she is "talking" to me, but that is about it. When we are outside, if someone she doesn't know approaches, she stands tall and in full alert and I'm not kidding when I say she stares them down until they can't be seen...not a peep out of her. She also goes into full alert if I have my nieces and nephew and they wander to far away, she doesn't take her eyes off of them and that is the only time she will pull..to get where the kids are. Anyone I allow can come into my home with no problems and she just loves when family comes over. The other two dogs bark away and she just watches. She is calm in the house, but always ready to go. The agility trainer told me today that she has a perfect temperament...she works when its time to work and is calm when she is waiting to work. I busted my butt when training and socializing her, more so because I don't know exactly where she came from and I wanted to have a good dog. Because of her I have fallen and fallen hard for the GSD breed. I really can't imagine not always having at least one, but I am also scared about what is out there and always comparing them to her. I don't think this breed is for everyone and if there are any doubts then maybe choose a different breed. People will always think they are vicious, they are police dogs, and just go the other way once they get full size. Its sad because they are an amazing breed, I can't even begin to state how proud I am to own one.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> buy from a reputable breeder. spend the time
> training and socializing, puppy class, OB, etc.
> and you'll have the type of dog you want.
> it's up to you and your family to raise the dog to be
> ...


This! I can't stress enough getting a pup from a reputable breeder. There are a ton of breeders out there, but not so many that are reputable.

If you don't want to go the pup route, getting an adult rescue is also a very good option, because you will know the dog's temperament before you get it.


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## Jenna&Me (Sep 27, 2012)

I am on my 3rd shepherd.

First one came from what I now realise was a BYB but she was the most beautifully natured girl. She loved people and only had to meet someone once to make them part of her extended family. She had no training of any sort but Karla didn't need it. She was protective of all us and a joy to be around. She changed alot of peoples minds that didn't like dogs. You couldn't help but love her.

Number two came from a so called reputable breeder. Everything I read about her and I googled heaps said she cared for and loved her dogs to bits. But I got a shepherd that was wired wrong. One on one with a professional trainer helped but she was unpredictable with other people and hated all other animals. We couldn't take her places and she was always muzzled for the vet. Still I loved her and cried buckets when she got sick and didn't recover. We don't have young children and no grandchildren.

Jenna is also from a reputable breeder but I steered away from show lines as they are called in the US because of my last experience. Jenna is what is called old style or straight back here. Her breeder does extensive socialsing with the pups while she has them. Lots of people coming and going and with 50 dogs they see plenty of other animals. She has a gorgeous nature but is not like Karla. I think she is probably the most typical example of what a shepherd should be. Still only 12 weeks old but loves to learn, is ratty when tired, needs to be busy or is into everything.
I love her to bits and her love of cuddles is the icing on the cake.

My long ramble has a point though. You can think you are buying from a breeder that is doing the right thing and they are not. Given the number of people here that are in the US I'd be asking them how they feel about their dogs and where they got them. Seems it's getting worse rather than better so if you want a really good dog, find out where others have bought theirs. 

Then start the training lol.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cleo2012 said:


> I've been telling people we plan to get a GSD and I get those "oh, no, scary" type of reactions it made me think perhaps I just got really lucky with my previous dogs?? I started reading everything online, and to be honest, got a little worried seeing they were currenly placed on the top 10 list of 'most agressive dog breeds' and such, not to mention all the agression filled posts on this forum and others - espacially those about the "kind and friendly GS who've seen this particular neighbor walk by their house a hundreds times and then suddenly decided to attack". That scares me, thinking they are not nearly as reliable as I thought. And all the "never leave dog with kids alone" posts..?? I've never worried about this before (never had to!) until I started reading posts.. because unless the dog follows me to each and every room, it will most likely be somewhere with one of the kids.. what happened to good old GSD? Can they really not be trusted anymore?


The Internet will scare you off of anything.  The best and worst thing you can do is research something on the internet! 

I agree with not leaving young children alone with dogs, but I don't believe that a well-bred GSD is a monster... in the wrong hands, there is certainly the potential for monstrosity. As I said before, there are a LOT of backyard breeders throwing any old GSDs together to make money selling puppies, with no regard for anything but lining their pockets.

Has it gotten worse in the last 12 years? I don't believe so. I've had GSDs for 20+ years and worked with many others. Yes, some have a screw loose--bad breeding. But I've been pretty lucky with mine. Back when I first starting looking for a purebred GSD, I did a lot of research, and this was before the Internet. I made a lot of phone calls, did a lot of driving around to see different breeders and different dogs, went to shows and trials, actually SAW the dogs. I think that this is a much better way to learn than internet research alone. So my advice would be to do like I did--visit breeders that are recommended to you. DON'T look in the newspaper classifieds or Craigslist--that is where backyard breeders advertise. Back before the Internet, classified ads were the only way to find breeders if you weren't already in the GSD world. I saw lots of good breeders, and lots of awful breeders in my travels.

In all, be patient and wait until you find a breeder who you are comfortable with, THEN get a puppy from them when one becomes available.


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## Blackjax1 (Oct 24, 2012)

Honestly I think any dog you choose you'll be fine. It's all up to you to help form his attitude. Getting a GSD pup can be the best thing for you and your family. I'm sure you have been told plenty by now that socialization will be key to a not so aggressive dog. Searching GSD history is good info. Like most dogs they protect their pack. And they will always show aggression if threton, including your family. If your family is being threton your GSD is most likely to step in.. Especially if it comes to the young ones. Which I love about my pup!!! That is why I like to get puppies and not older because the dog and you are not use to each other. You do not know his limits and I wouldn't want to find out with a tragedy. I have kids and this is why I chose my GSD. I want a dog that would protect me and my family. Big, smart, and loyal. About your kids.. You'll be fine and so will they. That doesn't mean leave them alone together ** in the beginning. As a pup he will have sharp teeth and doesn't know any better. For the first 5-8 month my pup was hardly around my kids. Now he'll be a year next month and he's always around my kids now. And they ride him like he's a horse. Pull his ears, tale, face, ect. My youngest sticks his hand down his throat. And my dog just sits there and takes it.. Rolls over. My kids are still small and i dont leave them alone with my gsd only because he so big and doesnt take much for him to knock them down by just walking pass them. When the time is right i know i dont have a concern about my dog attacking my kids. Only YOU will be the one to build his personality. There is so much I can say about this breed and I wouldn't want to bore you. Just remember socialize him/her dog parks are great. They meet other dogs and they get excersize. And let him know that you are alpha and things should be fine. Hope I helped.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Blackjax1 said:


> And they ride him like he's a horse. Pull his ears, tale, face, ect. My youngest sticks his hand down his throat. And my dog just sits there and takes it.. Rolls over. My kids are still small and i dont leave them alone with my gsd only because he so big and doesnt take much for him to knock them down by just walking pass them. When the time is right i know i dont have a concern about my dog attacking my kids. Only YOU will be the one to build his personality. There is so much I can say about this breed and I wouldn't want to bore you. Just remember socialize him/her dog parks are great. They meet other dogs and they get excersize. And let him know that you are alpha and things should be fine. Hope I helped.


I don't have the words right now to respond to this. I would not recommend your approach with a whole lot of GSD's.

You need to read the aggression forum.

All GSD's can not be painted with a broad brush. Some of them would take your kid's face off for their behavior. 

Socialization is not a cure all.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

The bit about not leaving the dog alone with the kids is as much for the protection of the dog as it is for the kids. Yes, there should be some concern about the dog - at a minimum, GSDs are big and not always careful about not knocking a kid over. 

Equally, kids are unpredictable and don't have a great understanding of consequences or right/wrong for a long time. You never know what a kid will do and have no idea that they shouldn't - pull its hair/ears, screech in its face, that sort of thing. Even if the dog just takes it, I wouldn't want my dog to have to put up with it.

BTW - you can put up baby gates to keep the dog away from little kids - no need to have the dog attached at the hip (although I suspect any GSD would be, anyway).


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

cleo2012 said:


> Hi everyone, so glad I found this forum!
> 
> 
> So, basically, while I've owned 3 in the pasts, those were before we had kids and before we moved to this typical middle class neighborhood where houses are close to each other, lots of kids running in and out of the yard (we can only have an invisible fence, not the real ones) and people come up to the door frequently (mail, scouts, etc.)... will a GSD fit in to this?? I guess my main concern is ending up with an agressive dog that will charge/attack people it doesn't know (and after reading this forum for some days, perhaps even at people it does know??) and that really worries me.
> ...


If it makes you feel any better, I live quite happily with my GSD (and my husband, and our three cats) in a very urban neighborhood two miles from downtown Houston. Our houses are VERY close together (my lot is 2500 sq. ft). Since we are a "walkable" neighborhood, there is a lot of foot traffic.

On our walks we encounter joggers, kids, bikes, squirrels, delivery trucks, mean cats, scared cats, Chihuahuas With Something To Prove (who are always on retractable leashes), loose dogs, angry dogs behind fences, and sometimes a guy who "windsurfs" on his skateboard. We do fine. 

But I expect that my guy will behave, and I make sure I can get his attention quickly if needed. I walk him on an EasyWalk front clip harness, and I carry plenty of treats to deploy when I need him to focus on me. We work relentlessly on "Sit, Wait" at the front door - he is not allowed to come out on the porch until I make sure there isn't anything or anyone on the street that he would be tempted to chase. I stay aware of our surroundings - there's no point in putting him in a situation that would scare him or wind him up too much. 

He's happy if I'm relaxed, so I don't make a big deal out of loose dogs or kids running up to us. So he doesn't fuss if something weird happens. He just gets a lot of treats if he's good about it. Just yesterday I used him as Doggie Bait to lure our neighbor's crazy off-leash Papillion up onto her porch so she could grab the little bugger. 

He has always been a good dog - I found him as a stray about 8 months ago, and he was a sweetheart from day 1. But I did have a few minor issues with him getting overprotective in some situations. So I signed up for obedience classes and learned how to work with him more productively. Like all GSDs, he Wants To Do Stuff. So we work on Doing Stuff for a few minutes every day - simple things like hand-targeting, sit-stay, down,come here, heel, etc. The more we practice, the easier and more confident he is out on walks. He knows we're a team, and he trusts in my leadership. 

He is just a fantastic dog. I love him to bits. I definitely hit the Dog Jackpot with him. I also second the suggestion to check out your local rescue group if you have one. Adult dogs in foster homes have been checked out, and their personalities are pretty well-defined. So you know what you're getting! And believe me, they will bond with you just as much as a puppy will.


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## Blackjax1 (Oct 24, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't have the words right now to respond to this. I would not recommend your approach with a whole lot of GSD's.
> 
> You need to read the aggression forum.
> 
> ...


I don't know why anyone would like to paint a DOG with a brush k
And I'm sure a dog would bite my kids face off if I let them do that to a random dog that is... This is my dog I am talking about and my kids. If I'm giving a story it's because I lived it.. I'm there to supervise my dog at such a young age. And if my dog has not bitten my kids is because I correct them from doing anything that would make my dog want to.. I apologize for not going into more detail and upset anyone. And perhaps some dogs can't be cured with socializing them... In most cases I do blame the owner because they do not know how to connect with their canine. Might give you some information, but there is always details left out.


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## Blackjax1 (Oct 24, 2012)

stealthq said:


> The bit about not leaving the dog alone with the kids is as much for the protection of the dog as it is for the kids. Yes, there should be some concern about the dog - at a minimum, GSDs are big and not always careful about not knocking a kid over.
> 
> Equally, kids are unpredictable and don't have a great understanding of consequences or right/wrong for a long time. You never know what a kid will do and have no idea that they shouldn't - pull its hair/ears, screech in its face, that sort of thing. Even if the dog just takes it, I wouldn't want my dog to have to put up with it.
> 
> BTW - you can put up baby gates to keep the dog away from little kids *that's how I do it* - no need to have the dog attached at the hip (although I suspect any GSD would be, anyway).


I agree. "The bit about not leaving the dog alone with the kids is as much for the protection of the dog as it is for the kids". I love my dog as if he were one of my kids... My kids haven't hurt my dog. I always prevent what can be pain for my dog.. If they hurt him.. He wouldn't roll over to fall asleep. He'd get up and walk away and that's when I know enough is enough.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

After reading some of these posts and all of these warnings I don't even recognize the breed you're (some) talking about. Wow.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> After reading some of these posts and all of these warnings I don't even recognize the breed you're (some) talking about. Wow.


I guess for me it's that all GSD's are not created equal.

They are not all good with kids and some are really not good family dogs.

So the warning is, if you want a family dog of the GSD breed then find a breeder or rescue that can deliver that.

I've had a number of GSD's and mixes along with other breeds and some mutts. They were all family dogs. I actually felt my kids were safer with the dogs than not.

But IMO dogs of any breed with nerve or temperament problems are probably not the best in a family situation.


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## MattLink (Oct 23, 2012)

I've had too many dogs in my time, (Mom was terrible at committing to a pet when I was a kid). In my experience, the GSD breed is extremely versatile in its ability to learn and to accept change. It is a guard dog by nature, but it's also a dog that loves kids and people, so long as that's what it's given the opportunity to lear. 
When it comes to strangers, the only worry I would have is if an unrecognized person startled the dog in the wrong place at the wrong time. But if the GSD was well trained I wouldn't expect more than a bad nip, unless the person exhibited clear aggression.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> After reading some of these posts and all of these warnings I don't even recognize the breed you're (some) talking about.


I must be on the wrong forum.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

cleo2012 said:


> .......... To clarify, we previouly lived in the country setting where the dogs could just run around......


This is what I zeroed in on more than anything else.

Sounds like your dogs ran around pretty free and burned off their steam that way. You won't have that in the neighborhood you are describing now, obviously. So you'll have to have places to go to get the exercise requirements met. Socialization and training will have to take a very high priority, too, since the dog will be dealing with a lot of stimuli daily in a non-secure environment. A well bred dog is a total must, most definitely.

I'm sitting here, not sure how to say what I am meaning, lol... but let's see if I can manage it. A GSD isn't supposed to be a sweet lil thang dog. You're going to want this working dog to be friendly and accepting of lots of little kids and houses close together and plenty of strangers coming to the door... and I'm not seeing it. I assume a busy neighborhood of kids also means a busy neighborhood full of other dogs as well. I don't see it as impossible, but I see it as a very big task. I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but in this scenario, considering your concerns, etc... I'd consider a different breed. One more tolerant of strangers, kids and other dogs and perhaps with a lower exercise requirement. 

To me, it really comes down to being sure the dog is well bred, to best insure you start with the best possible blueprint, but then add some very vigilant, consistent training work and enough exercise. I don't know you, so don't know how busy you are or how much time you have... but if you don't have A LOT for at least that first year++ -- again, I'd possibly consider something else. That doesn't mean training won't be required of another breed, by any means -- but the territorial nature of these dogs, the prey drive common to them -- pretty much guarantees extra work to keep those things in control.

Good luck!

ETA -- Agree with Jack's Dad and Whiteshepherds.... this is a very odd thread with lots of "advice" that is just kind of ... I don't know .. Twilight Zonish to me.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess for me it's that all GSD's are not created equal.


I agree Andy. I guess I was expecting to see more positives to balance out all the warnings.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

with the proper training and socializing from
you and your wife you can have whatever type
of dog you want.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> with the proper training and socializing from
> you and your wife you can have whatever type
> of dog you want.


You really seem to believe that all problems are just a matter of socializing and training. 

Perhaps you should help out all those people in the aggression forums.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

My GSD is very non-aggressive. She is a therapy dog, loves children, walks in parks, downtown areas, and anywhere else I want to take her with no problems. She is aloof with strangers but never aggressive. I would trust her anywhere, anytime.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a very well trained, social, aloof/friendly, GSD. He would never hurt anyone if they weren't possessing a threat to me. I've seen a semi-threat response from him and its not pretty. I don't have a yard...if I did I would never leave my dog out in the yard by himself anyways. I would not suggest coming into my home without me here...but that is why I got a GSD. Not to just be a dog, but be a dog that I could trust to protect my home. No matter how "non-threatening" you are to a human...no GSD will ever understand that. If you really want something that won't even think about attacking a stranger go with another breed...but looking for a GSD that won't do that will be very difficult. I mean you're looking for something that is completely against breed standard.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> You really seem to believe that all problems are just a matter of socializing and training.
> 
> Perhaps you should help out all those people in the aggression forums.


Even if you don't like hearing it, doggiedad's correct. Unless you have a seriously mentally messed up dog from the very beginning, you can raise any dog to be happy and well behaved with the right training and socialization. 

The vast majority of the aggressive dogs on the forum were allowed to become that way and are the fault of their owners. Even the weak nerved dogs could be good pets if they had been raised right. It's very hard to fix aggression once it's firmly in there in an adult dog. It can be fixed or managed in many of these dogs, but it takes the right training to do it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Even if you don't like hearing it, doggiedad's correct. Unless you have a seriously mentally messed up dog from the very beginning, you can raise any dog to be happy and well behaved with the right training and socialization.
> 
> The vast majority of the aggressive dogs on the forum were allowed to become that way and are the fault of their owners. Even the weak nerved dogs could be good pets if they had been raised right. It's very hard to fix aggression once it's firmly in there in an adult dog. It can be fixed or managed in many of these dogs, but it takes the right training to do it.


Doesn't bother me. You and him have one opinion and I have another.

I also have dogs to enjoy and care for not to have to manage.

I do agree there are a lot of messed up owners who create messed up dogs.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Elaine said:


> Even if you don't like hearing it, doggiedad's correct. Unless you have a seriously mentally messed up dog from the very beginning, you can raise any dog to be happy and well behaved with the right training and socialization.
> 
> The vast majority of the aggressive dogs on the forum were allowed to become that way and are the fault of their owners. Even the weak nerved dogs could be good pets if they had been raised right. It's very hard to fix aggression once it's firmly in there in an adult dog. It can be fixed or managed in many of these dogs, but it takes the right training to do it.


I am right between Elaine and Jack's Dad here. 

Doggiedad always posts that *everything *can be trained out. I do not believe that. Doggiedad does not take poor nerves into account. (Sorry, doggiedad, it's true.) Doggiedad, as much as I like you, you never really post about issues you had to work thru... just that your dog has always done it all right. What's to learn from a perfect dog? 

Elaine, you always come across as super duper dog trainer person, and you seem to not understand that the majority of people here are not that. The majority of people on this forum wander here because they're having issues. They seek out a little guidance and go away. They are... average.. people... who want their dog to behave properly with a minimum of effort. They don't stay around. They don't go beyond the absolute minimums. They just do not get what you're saying, other than you're harsh. 

As time has gone by and I've dealt with different things, I've come to realize you are right most of the time, but your presentation sucks. You're like a college professor talking to a first grader. You tell total dog virgins they can "do it" with the right training, yet leave out what the "right training" is. You leave a ton of blanks for them! Your bedside manner... ? Not there. 

I agree with your comments on weak nerved dogs being totally capable of becoming good pet dogs. However, I don't like that you leave out just *how much work* is required to make this so. I also agree that owners "let" the dog become aggressive when they don't address the behavior.... I ran into a bout of that not long ago when I was late in dealing with it.

I am not "dissing" the breed in any way, but come on, these dogs are not sweet little tail-waggers, nor are they supposed to be.


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## drag0nsfli (Oct 22, 2012)

There are those dogs that are wired wrong from get go, mine was, we tried obedience/behavior mod., she bit strangers period, if they got too close, did we make mistakes because of that and put her away, keep her from people we did not know what she would do with, you betcha, if i had it to do again, of course i would do some things differently, but just like a child I would not destroy because they were damaged, i wasnt going to destroy her and am glad i made that decision, for I got 9 wonderfully troublesome years w that beast, whom I will mourn forever. Bottom line is they are big dogs, even in best circumstances, breeding etc, you get what you get, is not always just an owner mistake.


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

I agree that there are dogs who are just "wired wrong". Had one that was a Husky and Lab mix. Had to keep her isolated as well, though also thought that it was my fault. Took her to training classes three times. She learned the commands but not the social part. Now have a German Shepard though mixed with well thinking an Akita. Mostly German Shepard, smart as ****, active as **** and lets face it, they were bred to be workers. Thats why they were and are in the military, the police use them everyday. They need to do well something, and if you cant read them, you better believe they can read you. Watch the eyes, and the body language, they are awesome!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I didn't read all of the replies in between, but wanted to comment on your original question.

It takes a lot of socialization, and a solid dog. From a good breeder, with strong nerves, if you want to set yourself up for success.

My ex got Frag at 12 weeks old out of a newspaper. I don't know if they made it a hobby to breed or it was an "oops" litter, but he was not "well-bred" by any means. Turns out he has excellent hips, but that was just us getting lucky.

He turned out to be the best dog for dog-uneducated high school kids to own. He DID go through a phase at 1.5-2.5ish years old where he would growl if someone petted him, but we worked through that and addressed some medical issues.

As a puppy, we took him EVERYWHERE with us. (we aided in him becoming very anxious when crated/left alone, developing in Separation Anxiety. It's a thin line to walk there...) We socialized him with EVERYONE we saw, constantly had him at different houses, meeting new people and dogs in his house, other houses, parks, our lawn, etc. 

He has turned out to be the best behaved GSD I'll probably ever own. If someone comes to the door, he'll bark. They can walk in without anyone in the house, and he's not going to do a darn thing except maybe bark some more. If he were ever on an invisible fence in the yard, anyone could walk through the yard (including friendly dog) and he'd do nothing but perhaps bark a bit. I have friends and family that he's never met come over frequently, sometimes when I'm not home, and he adjusts fine and will let people come and go. He won't guard anything, including food, and strangers can take tennis balls or bones from him with no issue. I think raising him to be the ONLY dog and giving him a TON of chew-type things (bully sticks, bones, kongs, etc) as a puppy helped this... since he was the "only dog", there weren't other dogs to bother him, take his toys or food, etc. and I think that helped turn him into a confident dog that isn't worried about getting pig ears, food, etc. taken away. Just a year or two ago, he was backed out of his food dish by a 15lb Chinese Crested. Couldn't thank him enough at that point for not killing her. 

eta; oh yeah, and even when he went through his growling phase, if someone had walked in the house and not touched him, he wouldn't have done a thing. ;P


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have had 5 male and 1 female GSD- 4 of the 5 males were intact until, at least their later years. They have been from lines as diverse as American, German Show, Czech, and West German Working and not one has been agressive towards strangers. They have all been good alarm barkers but once they tell me they knock it off. Could someone just walk in my house unannounced? Probably, if they were a friend but if not I think they would be backed against a wall. Did they meet folks on the street fine and be safe in public? Every last one of them.

3 of my 6 GSDs did have some level of issue with dog agression (the female and two of the males) and for the female I think it was just who she was, the one male it was fear agression and the other male -- not sure -- too far back. I learned a lot more about raising them properly and my current 2 males have no issues around other dogs or people.

I think it is fundamental to simply find a GSD who comes from decent lines without fear issues as that seems to be where most of the unwarranted aggression issues come from.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you don't know what i really believe. the OP was talking about
getting a puppy and not wanting it to be aggressive. all i can think
of is training and socializing. if you have a better method please state
it. with some dogs it doesn't matter what you do they're just off.
i guess with those dogs it's a matter of management. i often read
where people that have aggressive dogs hire a behaviourist. i could
be wrong but the behaviourist isn't going to lay the dog down on it's
bed and talk to it and ask it questions. i don't want to mention
the "T" word but i think there's going to be some training involved. :laugh:



doggiedad said:


> with the proper training and socializing from
> you and your wife you can have whatever type
> of dog you want.





Jack's Dad said:


> You really seem to believe that all problems are just a matter of socializing and training.
> 
> Perhaps you should help out all those people in the aggression forums.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never post that everthing can be trained out. i think
training and socializing is key. i haven't had any issues to work
through and there's lots of people that haven't any problems
to work through. i got my pup at 9 weeks old. he was in a puppy class
at 10 weeks old and things took off from there. i owe my dogs
perfection to his breeder. my breeder bred a dog that was easy to train,
strong nerves. so far he hasn't developed any mental problems or health problems. i had the easy part. all i had to do was train and socialize.
what's there to learn from a "perfect dog", a good dog, a well trained
highly socialized dog, you could learn how to have one.



chelle said:


> Doggiedad always posts that *everything *can be trained out. I do not believe that. Doggiedad does not take poor nerves into account. (Sorry, doggiedad, it's true.) Doggiedad, as much as I like you, you never really post about issues you had to work thru... just that your dog has always done it all right. What's to learn from a perfect dog?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i've never post that everthing can be trained out. i think
> training and socializing is key. *i haven't had any issues to work
> through* and there's lots of people that haven't any problems
> to work through. i got my pup at 9 weeks old. he was in a puppy class
> ...


I didn't have that option, so to speak. I took in a dog that my irresponsible kid allowed to be bred. I didn't want that dog. I had a happy two-dog home and #3 was not in my gameplan... but there it was. 

Sure, there are "lots of people" with no issues, but doggiedad, I think there are even more people that do encounter issues. Whether that is about the dog, its breeding or about their lack of training/social work I can't say. 

I'm glad it has been so easy for you, I really am. But honestly, in all respect, I think you need to temper some of what you say based on the many that do not have such easily trainable, biddable dogs.

Bailey has had extensive socialization and obedience training. He does have some nerve issues. Without that work, he'd likely be a big nasty mess of a dog. But, I knew that was a potential. I knew he was a mixed breed of unknown nerve and knew I'd better go 100% or I'd have a mess. (This board advised me of this back then as well.) How many people think that way? They come here months and months *later *with *serious* issues.... at that point, they have a major project, a year or more long endeavor that often requires behaviorists and trainers coming in... So once they've come "that" far, once those problems are "that" far gone, your advice to ramp up training is too little, too late.


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

*New also*

I agree that it is wonderful to have a "perfect" dog. And I also think they all are, we arent. When bad behavior happens, its for their reason, not necessarily ours. Intelligence in dogs has been documented and experienced, ours also right? Have a GS mix, think Akita in there. But smart, kind, wild, calm, angry, sweet, nervous, and all the same things that I have felt myself. Love him.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Even if you don't like hearing it, doggiedad's correct. Unless you have a seriously mentally messed up dog from the very beginning, you can raise any dog to be happy and well behaved with the right training and socialization.
> 
> The vast majority of the aggressive dogs on the forum were allowed to become that way and are the fault of their owners. Even the weak nerved dogs could be good pets if they had been raised right. It's very hard to fix aggression once it's firmly in there in an adult dog. It can be fixed or managed in many of these dogs, but it takes the right training to do it.


A GSD shouldn't require "management"....they should be able to be enjoyed.

After reading this thread I'm not sure I even want one.....


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

sparra said:


> After reading this thread I'm not sure I even want one.....




This is how I imagine a lot of people feel after reading these kinds of posts. I think in a lot of cases it IS the owners who create the problems although not intentionally. (Chelle, you didn't create a problem, you were handed one and fixed it )


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## Jenna&Me (Sep 27, 2012)

If Miki (second GSD) had been my first I doubt I would have another although even saying that I'm not sure. She wasn't right but I still loved her. And each year she was better.

There is just something about the breed that gets into your soul. Jenna is just 13 weeks tomorrow and I hope I have 15 years with her. Hoping so much. 

Two out of 3 have been non agressive, yes early days with Jenna but after having a terror it's easier to spot a good one. She was bred for temperament and it shows.

Any dog breed can be aggressive in the hands of the wrong person.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

because you have promblems with a dog/dogs
doesn't mean the majority of people have problems. are 
there problem dogs, yes. i think there's more dogs
without problems. i think people cause the problems
in dogs. i'm not sure what i need to temper. please give
me an example.



chelle said:


> I didn't have that option, so to speak.
> 
> >>>> I took in a dog that my irresponsible kid allowed to be bred. I didn't want that dog. I had a happy two-dog home and #3 was not in my gameplan... but there it was. <<<<
> 
> ...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

It's too easy to form a negative opinion if you concentrate on the "I have a problem" type threads, and they do seem to garner a lot of attention. There are several other sections on this site that demonstrate how great it is to have a GSD. I've loved every one of my dogs, but after getting my first GSDs, there is something extra special about them that sets them apart from the rest.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cleo2012 said:


> So, basically, while I've owned 3 in the pasts, those were before we had kids and before we moved to this typical middle class neighborhood where houses are close to each other, lots of kids running in and out of the yard (we can only have an invisible fence, not the real ones) and people come up to the door frequently (mail, scouts, etc.)... will a GSD fit in to this?? I guess my main concern is ending up with an agressive dog that will charge/attack people it doesn't know (and after reading this forum for some days, perhaps even at people it does know??) and that really worries me.


So, bottom line - Has anyone been able to socialize their GSD enough to become non agressive towards strangers? I mean, barking is ok (and expected), but we just can't have any type of agression. I am also aware of the whole debate regarding invisible fences - They keep the dog in but won't keep people out - and I completely understand this which is a part of my concern.[/QUOTE]

My only concern was based on the above needs of the OP.

Of course you can have a dog like that.

You have to be very selective though because there are no guarantees.

It would be hard for a breeder to say that their puppies will turn into a dog that will be fine under all those circumstances. Invisible fence with people coming and going, kids, mailman etc...

Some GSD's will be fine with that and some won't no matter how much you socialize them.

A big part of how they turn out is genetic.

Some breeders are more geared to the pet market but it is very difficult to guarantee what a puppy will turn out like.

I have four adult kids and while there are family characteristics they are all very different in certain ways.

I don't think I've ever had a dog that liked mail persons. GSD or other breed.

Could I have trained or socialized them to the mail person. Maybe doggiedad, but I like a lot of people worked 40 to 60 hours a week and on weekends I had a bunch of other things to do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My boy Keefer loves everyone. There is no level of physical contact that's too much for him, he's like a barnacle on me, and he'll solicit hugs from total strangers! You can clearly see by his body language, the relaxed lean into them, the soft expression on his face, that this is not just something that he's learned to submit to, he actually enjoys it. 

Even though we don't have kids and he hasn't been exposed to them all that much, he's very good with them. We were working with a trainer at an off leash park a few years ago doing distance down stays, and a young kid saw him and ran over and flung his arms around Keef.......who turned his head and licked the boy's face. :wub:

He is somewhat leash reactive to other dogs, but that's improved greatly in the past year or two, and he's very social with other dogs off leash, although he does have a lot of prey drive. He'll bark at the doorbell, but we don't have company over all that much so it's not something that he's used to. Once he calms down he's very friendly to guests. 

My husband has been taking him regularly to visit his mother in assisted living for the past few months, so he's become an impromptu therapy dog. She enjoys seeing him, and he loves going there. Some of the staff are leery around an 80 pound GSD, but he's very popular with the other residents.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> because you have promblems with a dog/dogs
> doesn't mean the majority of people have problems. are
> there problem dogs, yes. i think there's more dogs
> without problems. i think people cause the problems
> ...


I have either said things wrong or my words were not understood. I actually have not had that many problems with him. When a new issue came up, I got advice and talked to trusted people about how I should best deal with it. As I said before, I was warned early when some nerve-warning signs came about, and I took the advice to heart. I followed the advice for extra socialization and training. The biggest problem I dealt with was another male in the house, but that's another story.

I think the person who never has a single issue with their dog is by far the exception. I put you in that category based on your posts. You don't seem to have ever had a single problem with your dog, he has never done anything wrong, never had an issue and trains to anything instantly. Apparently you've never made a single training mistake; hence have never "caused" an issue in your dog, as you say others do. Hey that's terrific, but I do NOT believe that to be the "norm." That's fine if you think it is -- we can agree to disagree.

Your answer to *every* problem is -- you need to socialize and train more. I'm not denying this is likely true, but that's pretty simplistic. For example, Bailey was showing human-fear when he was young. (He came to me that way, doggiedad... I didn't "cause" it.) Had I just dumped him into a mix of people, I would've been setting him up to fail. I had to start slow, from a distance. Work the LAT. Bring him in closer. Make slow progress towards removing that fear. It was a long term thing. The issue improved dramatically with that work, but it wasn't just socializing -- it was about removing / lessening a fear. Same book, different chapters.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ETA -- My whole point that I apparently failed to make to the OP was just that she had a busy type situation around her house and if she wanted this breed, that she be ready, timewise, financially, etc, to put into it. Also that the stakes were somewhat higher, considering Invisible Fence and all those kids that inevitably would be in her yard. Territorialism, prey drive, landshark .... GSD traits that are common may become a problem in her scenario. Not that she couldn't be very diligent, train on it early and hard... not saying she couldn't/won't/can't/shouldn't! 

I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy here, but not every breed is right for every situation. That doesn't mean it can't work or be made to work, though. Good luck, OP, with whatever breed you choose. If you stick with a GSD, I would say get one from doggiedad's breeder!!!!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

chelle said:


> I think the person who never has a single issue with their dog is by far the exception. I put you in that category based on your posts. You don't seem to have ever had a single problem with your dog, he has never done anything wrong, never had an issue and trains to anything instantly. Apparently you've never made a single training mistake; hence have never "caused" an issue in your dog, as you say others do. Hey that's terrific, but I do NOT believe that to be the "norm." That's fine if you think it is -- we can agree to disagree.


It also depends on how you "view" problems. My dog is perfect  but he has his moments.....I just don't get all that worried about him stuffing up. Sometimes half the trouble is people seem to be waiting for something bad to happen with their GSD......every little thing that pops up is a "potential problem" when it is probably not that big of a deal.

On the other hand I think socialization is highly over rated on this forum.
I have said on a number of occasions that my dog should be a real problem as he has had virtually no socialization of the kind that a lot of dogs get on here......is he aggressive to strangers or a nervous wreck.....far from it....yet he is pretty much "unsocialized" so genetics must play apart somewhere along the way.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm still sticking to the point of...I have a great, friendly (aloof), GSD. He wouldn't hurt anyone in my presence and is very good with all types of people and kids. But I would never expect him to lay around and not do anything if someone came into my house, or into my (future) yard, or wherever that is "his" territory. That is just not how these dogs were bred to think. So if you really want a dog, that wouldn't touch a fly, no matter who is there or who isn't there to call him off or tell him its alright, its probably not a GSD.

For those of you that can trust your GSD with any stranger coming into your property, I'm not sure if I'm happy for you or if I question the kind of dog you have. I don't ever want my dog to be tested in this kind of situation...but at the end of the day I did get a GSD for its protective instincts and qualities. I would expect that one coming from a reputable breeder would show those qualities and not just be that lab from the Allstate commercial that allows anything to happen as soon as a bone is thrown its way.

And if you do believe your dog can figure out the difference between a robber and a friendly person without you being there to explain the difference...I'd really like to know how you either taught this to them or how you tested this theory, and the brave soul that acted as a test subject.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

martemchik said:


> For those of you that can trust your GSD with any stranger coming into your property, I'm not sure if I'm happy for you or if I question the kind of dog you have. I don't ever want my dog to be tested in this kind of situation...but at the end of the day I did get a GSD for its protective instincts and qualities. I would expect that one coming from a reputable breeder would show those qualities and not just be that lab from the Allstate commercial that allows anything to happen as soon as a bone is thrown its way.


Interesting how we all see things from different perspectives. I question the kind of dog that CAN'T be trusted around strangers, if by stranger you mean someone they've never had contact with before. Not all strangers are created equal.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I'm still sticking to the point of...I have a great, friendly (aloof), GSD. He wouldn't hurt anyone in my presence and is very good with all types of people and kids. But I would never expect him to lay around and not do anything if someone came into my house, or into my (future) yard, or wherever that is "his" territory. That is just not how these dogs were bred to think. So if you really want a dog, that wouldn't touch a fly, no matter who is there or who isn't there to call him off or tell him its alright, its probably not a GSD.
> 
> For those of you that can trust your GSD with any stranger coming into your property, I'm not sure if I'm happy for you or if I question the kind of dog you have. I don't ever want my dog to be tested in this kind of situation...but at the end of the day I did get a GSD for its protective instincts and qualities. I would expect that one coming from a reputable breeder would show those qualities and not just be that lab from the Allstate commercial that allows anything to happen as soon as a bone is thrown its way.
> 
> And if you do believe your dog can figure out the difference between a robber and a friendly person without you being there to explain the difference...I'd really like to know how you either taught this to them or how you tested this theory, and the brave soul that acted as a test subject.


 I totally agree. I think the OP should get a golden retriever or a lab.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

sparra said:


> It also depends on how you "view" problems. My dog is perfect  but he has his moments....*.I just don't get all that worried about him stuffing up. Sometimes half the trouble is people seem to be waiting for something bad to happen with their GSD......every little thing that pops up is a "potential problem" when it is probably not that big of a dea*l.
> 
> On the other hand I think socialization is highly over rated on this forum.
> I have said on a number of occasions that my dog should be a real problem as he has had virtually no socialization of the kind that a lot of dogs get on here......is he aggressive to strangers or a nervous wreck.....far from it....yet he is pretty much "unsocialized" *so genetics must play apart somewhere along the wa*y.


Haha, it is funny how perspectives are different!

I never waited in worry over what might be something to deal with, lol. It was just extremely important to me from the get-go that my dog be able to be taken out in public, not a liability, a dog that could go literally anywhere with me. Those were super high priority things to me. When he was very young and showing human-fears, it had to be dealt with or I am quite sure I would've ended up with everything in a dog I absolutely did not want. Speaking for myself only, it was indeed a potential problem and big deal. 

Maybe some people sit and wait for problems, but I'm glad they're being vigilant at least.. considering the majority of human dog owners ignore problems until they're major issues. Why are there so many dog trainers, behaviorists, classes, tv shows? Because the average dog owner does *not* address a potential issue before it becomes a nightmare. 

I agree with you on the socialization / genetic thing. I've learned that thru this forum. The worse the genetics, the more important the socialization. If you don't socialize the strong nerved dog, it probably doesn't matter.... but if you don't socialize the questionable or weak nerved dog, you may well have a trainwreck. JMHO.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

cleo2012 said:


> Hi everyone, so glad I found this forum!
> 
> First of all, I'm a BIG fond of the GSD and think it is the absolute BEST dog there is! I've had 3 PB in the past and there were all awsome dogs.
> 
> ...


 I included the above portions of your post because to me, it seems these issues may mean a GSD is no longer the right choice for your family. You say you don't want to compromise on your favorite breed, would you be willing to compromise on some of your expectations?

A big issue here seems to be that the dog will be unsupervised in the yard, contained only by an Invisible Fence. IMO that is not responsible use of the IF and it is setting your dog up to fail at some point. IFs don't keep people or other animals out, which isn't protecting your dog or the people/animals who may wander into your yard). They don't allow your dog back in if something entices your dog to leave the yard. A dog with a high prey drive, in the wrong moment may chase a small animal out of the yard without a second thought to the shock...but they won't come back in. They build up barrier frustration, often IME worse than what a normal fence would. I have seen many dogs of many breeds develop serious territorial/frustration/barrier aggression who were confined by an invisible fence. Some to the point where they left the yard to attack whatever it was that set them off. 

So with all of that in mind, GSDs as a breed are supposed to be territorial. They are supposed to have a certain amount of "aggression". Being friendly towards everyone they meet is not characteristic of the breed. That doesn't mean they should be dangerous. But IMO and IME putting a dog naturally prone to being guardy in a situation where people will constantly be coming in and out of the yard while the dog is unattended and confined by an Invisible Fence is setting the dog up to fail. I don't know how many times I have had a conversation with pet GSD owners about this very thing. "My dog is threatening people who come into my yard", "Why did my dog just bite the delivery man?". If you put a naturally territorial breed into this sort of situation, you are trusting the dog to always make the right choice about if someone is or isn't supposed to be on their property. That is a lot of responsibility to expect a dog to have. At some point, your dog might make the wrong choice. 

If you are unwilling to compromise on the "dog must be unattended in the Invisible Fence and just know that everyone is allowed to come and go from our yard" issue, I would urge you not to get a GSD. There are GSDs out there who could do fine in your situation but it is not characteristic of the breed for them to have no territorial or guardy thoughts. It isn't a socialization issue, it isn't because breeders "care more about looks than temperament". I would suggest you look only at breeds which are were not bred or used for protection or guarding. A Smooth (shorthaired) Collie might work well for you, as Collies are generally naturally friendly dogs. They make great family dogs too and are very trainable. 


TBH I don't like the idea of an IF as the only means of confinement for an unsupervised dog for the other reasons I mentioned. It would be best no matter what breed you get the the dog is always supervised when in the yard and that the IF is always just a back up for all the training you have done to make the dog reliable about coming when called (recall), not chasing people/animals/cars/bikes/etc and staying in the boundaries of their yard. It's just that with some breeds, the potential for things to go really bad when an IF is used as the only means to confine an unsupervised dog is much greater than it is with others. 

If you are willing to compromise on that issue it would be that the dog is never out in the yard unsupervised. That the IF is only a backup in case the awesome recall and impulse control work you taught from day one fails at some point. That every time the dog sees people passing by your house, people coming in and out of your yard, animals passing by your house, etc from the time he/she is a young puppy you treat it as a training experience for making the right choice with their reaction*. That way, you are teaching your dog to make proper choices, to be safe around non-threatening strangers but you are never putting them into a situation where their life depends on making the right choice. 

*Impulse control work is highly important here. Check out the Control Unleashed books.videos by Leslie McDevitt and Susan Garrett's It's Yer Choice game (can find a lot of info on Youtube and people's websites on this, also in her book Shaping Success) and Crate Games DVD to start with. These are very appropriate things to start training right away, as soon as you bringing your puppy home because they are based on teaching the dog to have self control through positive methods in small increments, rather than using force to teach the dog that you can control them. Having self control is far, far better than relying on being able to physically force the dog to remain under control.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Interesting how we all see things from different perspectives. I question the kind of dog that CAN'T be trusted around strangers, if by stranger you mean someone they've never had contact with before. Not all strangers are created equal.


I think part of this is semantics. I'd like to be more specific, ie, -- if I am not home and someone comes in the house vs I am out walking my dog and pass a stranger. If a stranger comes into my house without me there, my dog would not attack, but I doubt he'd be accepting and that is okay by me. If I *bring* a stranger into the house, I do not expect him to love them, but he must behave properly. (Another thing I knew I did not want was a dog I had to crate just because visitors came over.) If on a walk passing a stranger, he must continue to walk. Showing some interest, yes, but growling, carrying on, barking? No. If he sees a stranger down in the woods that doesn't belong there? I expect him to bark and hackle -- to alert to that. (and that just happened a week ago here.) Or when he alerted, growled, hackled, did the boof thing at the drunk guy hiding in the trees when camping earlier this month? That was okay by me, too.

I don't think people are all that far apart here? Aren't some of these behaviors perfectly normal, provided the human is in control and the dog can *be* controlled? I'm not saying that right, but hope it makes sense.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Interesting how we all see things from different perspectives. I question the kind of dog that CAN'T be trusted around strangers, if by stranger you mean someone they've never had contact with before. Not all strangers are created equal.


Well yeah...if someone that your dog has never met comes onto your property/into your home. And you're not there to greet them/let your dog know they are friendly. What would your dog do? Do you really expect your dog to just sit there and look at them like they're just coming in to say hello?

Dogs don't have the same reasoning system we do. They can't tell if the person is there for good or bad. I expect that my GSD will think that everyone is there to do harm. That's how dogs think. I could say that I hope that if I child would do something (like hop a fence to grab a ball) I'd like for the dog to ignore them or just give some warning barks. But that is still a lot to expect from a dog. It's pretty much expecting them to not consider anything "small" a threat...which could be wrong in a robbery or some other situation.

When I am around, when we walk through fairs/public events, my dog is perfectly behaved. He lets people pet him, he'll calmly stand or sit, he's the perfect example of what our breed should be. But I'm there, I'm not worried, I'm calm, so he knows everything is fine. I would not expect the same if I wasn't there.


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## cleo2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Wow, I don't even know how to reply to my own thread. So many different oppinions and such controversy! I am not at all sure if reading all the replies have helped me or not but I do appreciate everyone taking the time to read and post.



AgileGSD said:


> A big issue here seems to be that the dog will be unsupervised in the yard, contained only by an Invisible Fence. IMO that is not responsible use of the IF and it is setting your dog up to fail at some point.
> 
> If you are unwilling to compromise on the "dog must be unattended in the Invisible Fence and just know that everyone is allowed to come and go from our yard" issue, I would urge you not to get a GSD.
> 
> TBH I don't like the idea of an IF as the only means of confinement for an unsupervised dog for the other reasons I mentioned.


Just to clarify, I never said I plan the dog to be UNSUPERVISED outside. It is going to be an indoors dog - outside only for training, playing, potty, family time.. What I ment was, the yard it pretty big and I was worried about a scenario where we would all be in the backyard and someone would come to the front door (mail, neighbor, etc.) and the the dog would run to the front and charge at that person (since it would hear/smell it before I would notice). I would hope that a well trained GSD, while being outside with the family, would know that barking/alerting us of the person at the door is sufficient and will not try to attack every person entering the yard - Not when we are outdoors with it.

Not sure it makes any difference to all the replies, but I just wanted to clarify that the future dog would live with us indoors (and I'm home all day) and did not mean this dog was to be left outside unattended in an IF only yard.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I understood that the dog would live indoors. You just made it sound like the dog would be off leash outside in your unfenced yard.

If you're outside...you have to be more vigilant about your dog if you plan on letting it just roam around. If I'm at an outdoor get together, I always know where my dog is. Even if the area is fenced in you just never know what the dog might decide to do (squirrel or another prey animal runs through). I refuse to make him down/stay for the whole time I'm there but I make sure I always control him especially around kids or new people that might not react to him the same way that family does.

I've read threads about how people's dogs do react to people coming in/out of the yard before the owner notices and the dog goes and barks/nips at these new people. I think the older the dog...the easier it gets to trust them. They tend to calm down, they develop more trust that you will take care of things and also the training that you do with them helps them do this. A young dog...will be curious, will be energetic, will be in general more driven to make his/her own decisions (this is a training issue).

I'll tell you this much...there is nothing ever in close proximity that my dog notices before I do. If there is a risk to my dog or someone else (because of my dog) I know this before my dog reacts to it and I take the necessary steps to make sure it doesn't happen. So if you want a "no-worries" dog, look into adopting. A GSD can be that dog...but it will take time...a lot of time. Not only for a puppy to mature but also for your training to take affect. So an older dog might be what you're looking for.


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