# Any ideas on what these mean?



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've seen two things in SchH that I was wondering about. I won't say what dogs or where b/c I don't know if these things are bad or whatever..

First I saw a dog that was supposed to out and then bark and hold instead out and then jump up and snap at the helper's face so he had to turn away from the dog. I saw the same dog do it again to another helper on the next exercise.

Second thing I saw was a dog bite the helper's exposed hand, the one holding the stick. It was bleeding.

I know there's a LOT of context missing, like how the helper was working the dog, etc, but is there anything you can tell me, generally, about what happened? Is the dog ever justified in snapping at or biting the helper? Does it indicate the dog is reactive, too aggressive, too civil, etc? When I saw these things I was not sure if I was supposed to go "oooo!" like the dog was [email protected]$$, or shake my head, or just pretend I didn't see it.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)




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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL.

Oh if it matters, this was not in training this was in a trial situation so I assume these are experienced helpers (not sure about the dogs, hmmm....)


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

My guess is for some dogs in situation #1, it's being civil, for others it's being a bit unclear in the brain and you'd have to know the dog and the lines and the training to be sure one way or another. Situation #2 sounds less encouraging.

But that's just my UNeducated guess Good question to ask, Lies!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Any video's to share? Aren't most trials videotaped? Curious to know the lines as well...
I've wondered how a young dog in training will always know not to bite the aggitation stick or just the sleeve. Helpers should be paid huge sums!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, I know that Keeta would never bite for real - but she has tagged our helper on the free hand. Wasn't hurt, but his protective glove was torn - he made a sudden, threatening, hand movement towards her with the intention of putting more pressure on her, i.e. act like he was going to hit her. She responded by to the sudden movement by biting at his hand (she reacted faster than he expected her to). 

Not sure if it was a prey-reaction, biting at something that is moving fast, or if it was a defensive reaction - either way, no biggy, that is why we train, to see how the dogs act and react when pressured, to see what they are made of, to build their confidence by letting them overcome the "enemy". 

In a trial situation though, I'm not sure what would have happened for the dog to go for the helper's hand?

For the snapping at the face - that is a bad habit that some people allow their dogs to develop. At our club, we don't allow it, too much risk to the helper. But some clubs allow it, and see it as an expression of strenght. I say that strenght is only strenght if the dog can control himself through the whole routine, and focus and channel his drive and agression into the bark and the grip. To me, snapping at the face shows that the dog is not clear in his head and is hectic in his work.

Whether good or bad? Not sure how to classify it all. You will see stuff like this in training and in trial. Dogs are dogs, and they will do stuff. (LOL, I've no idea what I'm talking about!)


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Dogs will be dogs and have off days. Not every trail day for them is an ON day, they have OFF days, even at the National Level.

Now if this was a repeated problem with the dog, then you need someone qualified to access the dog and see if it is a training problem, handler problem, helper problem or a dog problem. IMHO.

Val


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2000)

Something you need to also keep in mind is that no dog or trainer is perfect. Finding a happy medium between the training sceme and the dog that produces a good result can sometimes be hard to come by. There are lots of factors that can come into play in what you described and some have been mentioned above. Generally speaking the dog you talk about sounds a bit what I would call over the top, and probably wouldn't score so high on a consistant basis unless it had a good handler & training.

Would you describe the rest of the protection work as extream or intense?

I am asking because sometimes the best dogs' aren't always the best trained, or get the highest scores. Add to that when I say best, I understand that that term is subjective. Everyone on this list has their own idea of what best really is them.

Al Govednik


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

Difficult to comment with out video however in trial the dog should show the discipline not to bite the hand of the helper and the coming up into the helpers face is not a bad thing so long as the dog stays clean it is dangerous however nothing I would allow a dog to do especially this dog. 
Dog isn't rite ether in the head or there are training issues that need to be cleaned up.
On a side note in training different rules apply to both dog and helper


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have seen dogs do this. Sometimes it is a temperament issue, other times it is a training issue, but often a combination of both.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

On the training side of things. I see quite a few helpers who pop the whip more than they do anything else. The sleeve is glued to their body while the whip arm is moving and making noise. Or, they hit their leg with the stick to make a noise when they agitate the dogs. Others are constantly threatening the dog with the stick. What is happening here is the helper is making the whip arm/hand an attraction. If a dog sees this all the time, they can start to want to bite the whip hand. The whip is something that really requires thought before it is used. However, from the day it was introduced to Americans, it has been used incorrectly most of the time. 
As for the face . Some helpers like to really bend their head forward and glare at the dog. They can actually make their face an attraction as well and some dogs really key in fast on some of these things. If the handler is not controlling the dog and doesn't notice what the helper is doing, you have a little problem. I recently had this problem with my helper. He would lean in and when the dog barked he would move his head back. Then he would go back and forth doing that. The result, my dog started to move in and out with the movement of the helper's head and moved off to the side. I caught what he was doing and told him to lean his head back and look more natural and voila, the dog came back to center and stopped that behavior. The little subtle things are always the biggest problems, you have to be alert enough to notice it and it can solve alot more problems than simply trying to correct the dog for the behaviors that the helper may be constantly creating.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthI have seen dogs do this. Sometimes it is a temperament issue, other times it is a training issue, but often a combination of both.


agree, ive seen the same thing. have also seen dogs out and come up on there handlers...those dogs are usually disqualified in a PSA trial...i dont know about schH


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