# E collar for correction use only...thoughts?



## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Recently I went over a friend's house who had been training their dog with an e collar and using it for correction only. What are your thoughts on this? There are certain situations that arise that seem like we should correct, but at home she won't be wearing a leash/prong. Lately, she has barks and lunges at people who come over, even when we come in with them and it's clear they aren't a threat. I'm thinking if I tell her it's OK and she continues, then she needs a correction in this case, and an e collar may give her a bit more freedom to use vs. holding her on a leash the entire time and trying to correct her. 

Most the articles I've read seem to use ecollars for training (stim until dog complies, then stim goes away) but what about just using it as a form of correction? Thoughts?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Nothing wrong with using an Ecollar for corrections but in your case I'd use the prong. It's more personal. The dog knows the correction is coming from you and what it's for. 

Last thing you need is you zap the dog when guests come over and the dog associates the stim with guests. Next thing you know the dog freaks out even more when people come over.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If you go through teaching the dog how to turn the stim off, and then train and proof your obedience, you can just have the dog down or go to its place, and then stim for noncompliance if necessary. 

No leash, no confusion or superstitious learning, and you are giving the dog the right thing to do instead of just trying to correct away a behavior. 

David Winners


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

E-collar can be used for rewards also. This way dog never associates it as punishment and gladly complies as he known stim means good things. A very small percentage of trainers/handlers use this technique currently, hopefully it will catch on but a typical user wants overnight results!


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Packen said:


> E-collar can be used for rewards also. This way dog never associates it as punishment and gladly complies as he known stim means good things. A very small percentage of trainers/handlers use this technique currently, hopefully it will catch on but a typical user wants overnight results!


could you expand on this? whats the reasoning behind nicking the dog instead of using a marker word? or is it the same except ecollar has better timing?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

simba405 said:


> could you expand on this? whats the reasoning behind nicking the dog instead of using a marker word? or is it the same except ecollar has better timing?


Assumptions are the killer. You do not nick "instead" of marker word (or clicker) but use both in conjunction. To the dog it means the same thing, marker is verbal stim, low level nick is physical stim, both mark reward which off course only happens if dog is in correct position.

Now that assumptions are out of the way, if you use this technique it means dog associates correct behavior with reward marker and stim. It takes several hundred sessions (say a couple of months if you use 2-3 sessions a day) to ingrain reward marker with perfect position and stim.

Now if a dog is out of position in training, a nick brings him back and he expects reward so drive goes up instead of down. There is much more to it but this is the short description.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

interesting but a bridge word like good achieves the same goal of keeping the dogs drive up and anticipating award.

what are the differences you've noticed with using a "physical" marker over a verbal one? if you nick the dog for being out of position but also nick when its in the correct position wouldnt that confuse the dog or take the dog longer to learn? 

or do you find the dog learns faster and is in better drive using both methods together?


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

David Winners said:


> If you go through teaching the dog how to turn the stim off, and then train and proof your obedience, you can just have the dog down or go to its place, and then stim for noncompliance if necessary.
> 
> No leash, no confusion or superstitious learning, and you are giving the dog the right thing to do instead of just trying to correct away a behavior.
> 
> David Winners


I second this approach. It's what I use and is very effective. 

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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Describe more the circumstances and what your dog is doing. Sounds more like an obedience issue to me than a bad dog issue. I don't like to correct a dog for doing something I don't like. I would rather use obedience to show the dog what I want and then use corrections, if needed, for a lack of compliance. For example, dog is asked to lie down on a bed when guests are over. If the dog gets up, it is corrected for not staying down. If it does stay down, it is rewarded for doing so. Putting structure in the dog's life works better than just allowing it to make choices and then correcting it when it makes the wrong choices.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If its being used as punishment for non compliance or maladaptive behavior you dont need to teach the dog how to turn it off especially if its just nicking.

For example I taught my dog to contact heel under heavy distraction using a prong and a toy but once he knew I marked the offense with a no and punished his breaking behavior with prong corrections or a stick or throwing my car keys at him or whatever. When I put an e collar on him for the very first time I turned it up to 127 and marked and nicked and guess what? He flinched pretty hard and immediately came in tight and stopped coming off. No confusion, no real drop in drive, no superstitious association, no suppression.

As long as it is clear and the reason for why a punishing event occurred is purified it doesn't really matter where the punishment comes from.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

So a few instances where corrections are needed come to mind:

First - as people enter, she will bark aggressively at them which makes the person even more awkward as they approach. People she knows, can enter just fine. I'd like to get to a point that I walk in with them, I say it's OK, and it's clear I'm not under duress and she will just leave them be. 

Second - her "leave it" command works fine around the house, but when her instinct kicks in (i.e., neighbors dog trying to nose around under the fence) she will not listen. 

I think both occasions a prong correction may also work, but having her on an ecollar seems to allow for more consistent corrections if needed as she almost never would have a collar/leash just randomly through the day. 

David - the reason I was weary about training her the "normal" ecollar way is it seems counter-intuitive to give them that stimulation when they are trying to do the correct act. Granted, I understand the training method. She knows the usual commands and will obey, so to retrain her on an ecollar seems to punish her for trying to do the right thing.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> a typical user wants overnight results!


and this is the very reason so many are against e collars
people seem to think they can put one on a dog and just shock it every time it does something they dont want it to


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The coming in the door problem is a training issue. I would work on teaching her to either sit or down when you welcome people at the door or come in with them. Correcting her for what is most likely a fear response is not fair when you have not given her something positive to do (like sit, down, go to her bed, etc). 

Ignoring you and wanting to interact (is she fence fighting?) with the neighbor's dog is also a training/obedience issue, she is not coming when called. In this situation the E can come in handy as long as she understands how to turn off the collar. Just correcting her without her understanding could result in other behaviors (like bolting).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Post 8 and 39 here should have some things you may find useful:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

And you can find alot ot info on E collar usage here:
How To...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> David - the reason I was weary about training her the "normal" ecollar way is it seems counter-intuitive to give them that stimulation when they are trying to do the correct act. Granted, I understand the training method. She knows the usual commands and will obey, so to retrain her on an ecollar seems to punish her for trying to do the right thing.


 You are not punishing her for doing the right thing. You work at a very low level and teach her that by doing the right thing she is able to make the annoying sensation go away.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Our SOP for when the door bell rings is for me to bring Cruz to go to his "place". Door rings, dog alerts, I command "wait" point to the top of the stairs on the landing, he either sits or downs on his own on the landing, I answer the door, he stays in "wait" until I give him the release word. No release word, he stays put. If it's someone visiting, I command him "rug" he is and does go straight to the living room rug and downs and stays until he is released from that point. Usually after he shows signs of calming down. If not he stays right there. The e-collars is used for not keeping his place. Or if he goes to the door instead of the landing or rug. I nick him and he it's clear to him what I want as we trained this way starting with a leash and e-collar. Coaxing him along at the beginning so he had a clear understanding of what the commands were and what was expected. They catch on quick, but consistency and reward are part of the process too. Not just laying into him with the collar. I still look at it as helping him refocus to my command instead of just flying off the handle and doing what he wants.

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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Oh and the level of stim really depends on the dog and the amount of distraction. 

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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Sounds like for now, it may be better to still use prong/leash for some more training and bring in the E collar if I need something more consistent. I'll probably have a friend come over so we can practice redirecting the dog when people are here and having her sit properly until released.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> If its being used as punishment for non compliance or maladaptive behavior you dont need to teach the dog how to turn it off especially if its just nicking.
> 
> For example I taught my dog to contact heel under heavy distraction using a prong and a toy but once he knew I marked the offense with a no and punished his breaking behavior with prong corrections or a stick or throwing my car keys at him or whatever. When I put an e collar on him for the very first time I turned it up to 127 and marked and nicked and guess what? He flinched pretty hard and immediately came in tight and stopped coming off. No confusion, no real drop in drive, no superstitious association, no suppression.
> 
> As long as it is clear and the reason for why a punishing event occurred is purified it doesn't really matter where the punishment comes from.


There is a big difference between correcting a dog for failing to comply with a known command and correcting the dog in the situation the op described ; stranger at the door, dog reacts, e-collar correction. 

This could go badly. Without any prior corrections in training for failure to comply to a known command , the dog may not understand. 

David Winners


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

David Winners said:


> There is a big difference between correcting a dog for failing to comply with a known command and correcting the dog in the situation the op described ; stranger at the door, dog reacts, e-collar correction.
> 
> This could go badly. Without any prior corrections in training for failure to comply to a known command , the dog may not understand.
> 
> David Winners


Very good point, David. Thank you. I talked to another friend of mine and he recommended he come and help out. We will have him come up and while on prong, I'll redirect and tell her to leave it and for her to heel with me as I turn my back on my friend and walk away with the dog. The correction being of course if she does not leave it which she understands.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

We just bought and Ecollar for Lucie and this is working better than her prong for corrections. We have followed the directions and have only had to use the stimulation once she responds well when she hears the warning beep. I would say it's the best training tool we have used so far it's worth the investment.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Andrea - which one did you end up getting? 

For everyone else - would you say a correction with ecollar would work in those instances that I say "leave it" and she does not? Or if she does not respond to a "come" command?

The people coming over situation, I agree with David that first she needs to learn what she's supposed to do otherwise correction is unfair.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

s14roller said:


> Andrea - which one did you end up getting?
> 
> For everyone else - would you say a correction with ecollar would work in those instances that I say "leave it" and she does not? Or if she does not respond to a "come" command?
> 
> The people coming over situation, I agree with David that first she needs to learn what she's supposed to do otherwise correction is unfair.


We ended up with the sport dog yard trainer from bass pro shop.... We have 350 yards with it. It was 139.99. We use it correction wise but the first command she doesn't respond to she gets the warning beep then is she doesn't respond to the 2nd time the command is given we stimulate her.. Until this point nothing we were doing was working she is 6 months old and over 60lbs... She wouldn't stop chasing the cats or counter surfing no matter how much we have worked with her over the past 4 months. We've had it for a week and now she only needs the warning beep.. She also isn't afraid of the collar and in fact likes getting it put on. So I think that is a win for us and her!!!!



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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Great, thanks! The Dogtra 1900 was awesome and built very well, but had vibrate and no beep.


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