# "lazy" puppy and schutzhund



## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Hey all! First I want to say THANK YOU to everyone on this forum for all the amazing information and advice, both given directly to me, and that which I have perused over the last few months. You guys really are awesome.

Secondly, to get myself back on topic, I wanted to talk to the protection gurus here about Kaiser's personality. I am brand spanking new to the idea of schutzhund so I am still learning. A lot! I have yet to find a club (waiting on a return email from one) but Kaiser is still young anyway so there isn't necessarily a huge rush (He is only 5 months old). We are working with a couple who are former schutzhund competitors/GSD breeders and doing some obedience and tracking foundation work. We did a little (and by "little", I mean...a LITTLE) drive work, but we stopped when Kaiser started teething. The female trainer said that once he was finished and there was no concern about a tooth getting ripped out during training that we could pick it up again. 

A few comments have been made, over the last month or so, about both me and Kaiser. Me first: It was made clear that to train a truly competitive dog, I would need to remove all toys (even if they are in no way similar to what is used during training), separate Kaiser from Dakota, and follow a pretty strict training regimen. This was from the male trainer. Basically, I would have to separate my heart from everything else. I explained to both trainers that Kaiser was a pet first, and a sport dog second and that while I am VERY competitive and hold high expectations for him, that I would understand if he was better suited for another sport. Yes, my feelings would be hurt, but I noted that if I really wanted a high drive dog then I would find a kennel to fulfill that requirement, and I would put in the time to find the *best* club, regardless of distance/total cost/etc. Now saying THAT, the female trainer did compliment me on my competitive nature and willingness to learn. (whew, at least I'm doing SOMETHING right!)

Now, for Kaiser: It was noted a few times that Kaiser is a "lazy" puppy. While he has been confident/self-assured, curious, sociable, and a fast learner from day one, he has a definite "off" switch and when he gets tired, he shuts down. He LOVES drive work, but its not his end all be all. In other words, his tail gets to wagging, he wants that tug, he prances around when he "wins", but he is far from baserko about it. I'm assuming this is where the lazy comments stemmed from. He will give chase, he will try to bite, but he can sometimes be a little slow to react and doesn't always put his heart and soul into it. I know he enjoys it though (the wagging tail, the proud prancing). A comment was made during our last obedience session, after I mentioned Falon's Kastle and the various sports he is learning (I really am impressed with that dog!), that it might be good for me to pursue some of them (reading between the lines: Kaiser isn't cut out for bitework). 

I'm not giving up yet. My goal is to get at least a BH and to see how he does over the following months with tracking. We will obviously do more drive work too, and my hopes are that he will mature and develop a love for the sport. 

So, my questions: 

-Is there anything I can do to make this more exciting for Kaiser? 

-Can a lazy puppy mature into a more "drivey" adult?

-What traits should I be looking for in Kaiser, to determine whether or not he will make the cut, so to speak, in schutzhund? 

-What can *I* do, as the handler, to develop a stronger bond with Kaiser (he is separated from Dakota during training, but not otherwise, and he very obviously is attached to her...though he is my velcro/shadow dog)

-Any non-compulsion training books to read that might help me? (I think I understand compulsion's place in the sport, but its not for me)

-Any other questions/suggestions/comments?

Thank you!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How old is he now? My Pan was a "sleeper". I was told I was getting the Schutzhund prospect from his litter, but for the first 6 months he had little to no interest in tugging, biting, chasing, retrieving, or even barking. He was bold and confident, very relaxed, never ever shy, but very mellow considering what I asked for. If you've seen videos of 8 week old puppies chasing rags and getting lifted off their feet while biting...yeah that was NOT Pan! At about 7-8 months his drive woke up and now if anything we have to keep him toned down! At 22 months, he's still quite immature. He's not behind training-wise (he has his BH and could do his SchH1 obedience any day, probably protection with a few weeks of learning the routine, tracking we are behind but that's my fault) but he still acts very happy-go-lucky, doesn't take much seriously, knows no enemies, that sort of thing. He acts like a goobery six month old puppy.

My dogs live together and are free in the house and yard all the time when I'm home. We have toys scattered on every floor in the house and yard, often the same toys I use as rewards for training. A good dog is a good dog regardless of how you want to raise him.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

He is 5 months and some change. 21 weeks, 3 days...but who is counting  Puppy-Pan sounds a lot like Kaiser! I swear this boy would sleep the day away, with a few bouts of playing thrown in. His parents were ball-crazy, but he...well...isn't. And he is DEFINITELY not the powerful 8 week old prospect in those videos you mention  He does enjoy playing, and chasing, and exploring, and generally being active...IF there is something to get excited about. But otherwise...I'm not sure where the "high" in "high drive" is, lol.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

A lot of the Schutzhund stuff develops with age. While Aiden isn't really the 'drivey-est' dog, he loves protection work. A good Schutzhund club will be able to lead you in the right direction with developing prey drive in the bitework. Do you have a flirt pole? That always really brings out the prey drive in Aiden. We didn't really start working in protection until he was about 7 or 8 months old. I didn't get him with the intentions of doing Schutzhund, and even after starting I didn't really have high expectations. At 7 months, Aiden was mildly interested in protection work. Now at almost 3, you wouldn't think it was the same dog. He is in no way a fantastic Schutzhund dog, but we have a good time out there. Don't sell your pup so short just yet! Aiden sleeps all day long in the house and still managed to get an IPO1 title.

Like Lies said, my dogs also live together and have tons of toys and bones around the house. I wouldn't consider your dog as a dud for bitework quite yet. He's still super young and you have yet to be evaluated by a working club.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I have a cat flirt pole...lol. Haven't made one for a dog yet, but he goes BONKERS for the cat toy!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I would let him grow up some more and reevaluate him again after a year of age. Some dogs mature slower. Let him be a puppy.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Aid would chase the tug when he first started, but he was in no way crazy about it. He peed on the floor his first time out there! He was just not focused and kinda lolly-gagging around. Neither one of us knew what to do, lol. Once we got the right guidance, we started seeing real progress. Again, nothing spectacular, but it is what it is. He is a great dog to learn with.

This is from his first time out, at about 7 months.
Aiden vom HausDaka - Protection 2/25/2010 - YouTube


And this is a recent video during some trial preparation.
Aiden vom HausDaka - Protection 5/12/12 - YouTube


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Ignore the advice about no toys and no playing with your other dogs: it's rubbish. I do keep the training toys for training only, but they have others for home use. I also keep my dogs together all the time. This only becomes an issue for people that toss the dogs in the yard together and then don't do anything with them so they only really bond to each other and not the handler.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

great! thank you so much for your encouraging words!


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

We see plenty of "sleeper" pups in our classses. One we were sure was going to be a "dud" and now it is awesome to watch her work. I didn't start Dooney in it until after she was a year old. I agree with the others- let your dog be a puppy, try a few different trainers until you find the fit, and work on your obedience- the bitework will come in time


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Uma was truly a sleeper. I actually have pics of her asleep/dozing on the field while pups on either side of her were going bonkers. I sent the breeder one pic and the breeder called me all freaked out that I was going to give up or something. I totally laughed it off and said I wasn't the least bit worried and that when she "woke up" would be the right time for her, not me, not the club! Sure enough all in one week it seems, she decided the ball was REALLY exciting, and the guy with the tuggy thing behind the blind was NOT TO BE TRUSTED. We are actually working her half sister right now who is pretty similar. I would not change what you are doing regarding his family activity and I also wouldn't get too worried about the toy thing. Although we do not leave toys out more for a safety thing. There are a few toys we have that ONLY get used at training, so maybe pick one or 2 that he really likes and leave those for schutzhund training only. 
Also, there is a pup in our club (now about 9 mos) that originally went to another club in town. They evaluated the pup at about 10-12 weeks and their evaluator (who isn't the TD from what I gather) told them the pup would most likely never "do" schutzhund and if they wanted a competition dog they should return it to the breeder and find another dog. The woman was already in love with the puppy and chose to keep him. She came out to us the following week and we loved the pup, he was a big cuddle bug and very focused on the handler already. Stuck like glue to her but not in an insecure way, just wanted to keep his eyes on her. Anyway he ended up getting HOD about 2 weeks later and had to miss all schutzhund and socialization for the next 3 months. Anyway, he started coming out again after the vet cleared him and he came out and just did obedience and some play tug work for another month or so until he had his strength back. Last night at practice my husband decided to try him on the sleeve since he did so well on the wedge the previous week. Let me just say that his first hit was ridiculous and the entire club gasped and then cheered. The owner actually had tears in her eyes she was so thrilled. The pup really was on the brink of death, and totally came to life. 
She didn't care if he ever did schutzhund ever again after coming so close to losing him, but the fact that he did and it seemed obviously so natural to him was the cherry on top.
We have had males that were slow to mature into it, but to me those are the best ones to work. They really seem to grow into it and are more fun and focused in a different way somehow.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also if he was bought as a Schutzhund prospect, see what the breeder says about his lines and how they mature.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

bocron said:


> Also, there is a pup in our club (now about 9 mos) that originally went to another club in town. They evaluated the pup at about 10-12 weeks and their evaluator (who isn't the TD from what I gather) told them the pup would most likely never "do" schutzhund and if they wanted a competition dog they should return it to the breeder and find another dog. The woman was already in love with the puppy and chose to keep him. She came out to us the following week and we loved the pup, he was a big cuddle bug and very focused on the handler already. Stuck like glue to her but not in an insecure way, just wanted to keep his eyes on her. Anyway he ended up getting HOD about 2 weeks later and had to miss all schutzhund and socialization for the next 3 months. Anyway, he started coming out again after the vet cleared him and he came out and just did obedience and some play tug work for another month or so until he had his strength back. Last night at practice my husband decided to try him on the sleeve since he did so well on the wedge the previous week. Let me just say that his first hit was ridiculous and the entire club gasped and then cheered. The owner actually had tears in her eyes she was so thrilled. The pup really was on the brink of death, and totally came to life.
> She didn't care if he ever did schutzhund ever again after coming so close to losing him, but the fact that he did and it seemed obviously so natural to him was the cherry on top.


what an amazing story!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You can still do the obedience foundation and tracking, protection can wait. I would still go to the club just so you can learn and observe the helperwork/handling. 


> *-Is there anything I can do to make this more exciting for Kaiser?
> -Can a lazy puppy mature into a more "drivey" adult?*
> Do you backtie him, tease him up for a toy?
> 
> ...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Some pups are definitely sleepers, and take time to mature into their drives. Vinca was like that as a young pup. She was active, but not over-the-top; she could take or leave the ball. She was quiet and calm in the house and respectful of other animals. Boy did that change. By the time she was, oh, 7-8 months old she started to "wake up", and now at 18 months, she is a holy terror!! Drives out the yin-yang, never stops, wants to be in the middle of everything, and won't take "no" for an answer! 

So bide your time, don't worry too much, and give your pup time to mature. He just may surprise you one day. And if he stays "lazy", send him to me. A lazy GSD pup would be a refreshing change around here.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Akela was not a super intense pup either, but you could see the drive was there. I remember that about the same age as your pup he went through a growth spur and it seemed that he had energy only to grow up. The poor guy would walk two steps and lay on the ground. He didn't show all his drive playing with the ball until about 1 year old, though playing tug with the helper he was always engaged.

Diabla was the total opposite from the beginning and still is... I think I didn't see her sleep before the year old. As soon as I moved a finger she was up bringing the ball into my lap.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

wow I didn't realize there was even a term for his behavior: sleeper. Lol...yup, thats my boy, all right. Well I am officially feeling a lot better about everything now. And heck, even if he never develops that really high drive, I'll still love him to pieces


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Not to change the subject but...Wow, you live in the outer banks? That must be awesome! I'm sure it's not convenient to get anywhere but I cannot imagine that much beach time with my dog!


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

robk said:


> Not to change the subject but...Wow, you live in the outer banks? That must be awesome! I'm sure it's not convenient to get anywhere but I cannot imagine that much beach time with my dog!


It is pretty darn cool...though it seems the only time I'm off from work is the time the fish STOP biting, haha! The pups LOVE the beach, be it the sound or ocean side (not so much a fan of the waves, but Dakota will go to swim/fetch if its very calm). The downside: tourists (not a downside in general, but it makes it hard for the pups to enjoy running the beach, even in the early summertime mornings), the heat (NONE of us, not even me, like anything over 65-70 haha), TONS of baths (my truck and home are destined to be forever sandy), and yes...there really isn't much around here, especially in the realm of dog sport options!

But, its a cool opportunity 

I see you are in the Fayetteville area! I used to live in Raleigh. If I did, Id be much closer to your club. Out here, I think there is one in Va Beach (but I've heard mixed reviews), and nothing else that I know of except maybe one in Louisburg.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

The most accomplished dog in our club is a now retired 5x (or 6x) Sch3 dog. His owners said he slept (almost literally) for the first 6 months of his life. I've seen our TD work for months just trying to get a bark out of a puppy. With some dogs it seems like it takes FOREVER. But, once they wake up, they wake up for good. Patience!!!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Kaiser2012 said:


> So, my questions:
> 
> -Is there anything I can do to make this more exciting for Kaiser?
> 
> ...


Don't lose hope! For about the first two months of schutzhund training, Whiskey had zero interest during bite work. He would actually sit down and start sniffing grass!  I just about gave up. But around 11 months, something turned on and he became a beast. He is a fantastic dog to work and loves his bite work. He's one of the loudest and most animated now. Don't lose hope!

You could start playing lots of tug at home. I did that with Whiskey to build drive. I also had him restrained in some way and we played a lot of teasing games so he gets excited about a ball or tug. I definitely think a lazy pup can mature into a motivated adult. Some dogs just operate based on different drives and Whiskey only really came alive when we worked him more on defense after he turned a year old. 

All it takes is time. Just continue training, playing and enjoying your pup. The bond will come and I think if you keep at it, you will see a different dog in a few months time. Even if he doesn't turn out to be a candidate, the experience will be a rewarding one


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

:thumbup: such great advice!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Male pups **generally** mature more slowly than females - the first few males I had were rock stars from day 1 - Ghost, Wolf, Cito and Danger and now apparently little Koug as well....but most of the pups I know of from todays popular WGR lines mature more slowly than their female peers....

I have done pups from 9 weeks and trained them, and had others I let go to over a year before working....one of my girls lives with friends, as a pet, constantly has a cuz or toy in her mouth, and when I finally got to start working her was super drivy....nothing was done to "build" drive - it was there....a couple of very very highlevel experienced trainers/helpers have critiqued her as a rock star LOL LOL without any knowledge of her 100% full time job as a pet who does not even live with me.

BUT - you can condition or "build" drive....you can also do what I call deprivation training to get more drive from the dog......

Many many many lower drive dogs are titled through diligence and conditioning rather than natural genetic talent.....if you want to train and title for fun, and understand that your first dog is a "learning experience", then do what YOU feel right for you and your dog.....I had trainers who believed dogs should live in kennels etc....I feel bad when I remember putting my dog in a kennel outside with an igloo overnight in the winter due to the trainer's INSISTENCE that he not be allowed in the house....that did not last!!!! The dog still trained and had drive and did very well (except for a few training caused long term ob issues!) and got Sch3 for me with super protection scores at every trial! 

Compulsion has it's place in controlling a dog in drive. Some dogs who are genetically very "biddable" can do well without it - IMO need for compulsion is as much based on the genetics of the dog as the training philosophy. Csabre was taught dumbbells totally without compulsion - a well known German trainer held her up as a shining example of the success of a force retrieve at a seminar.....LOL....he went on and on that THIS was the best retrieve he had seen there....and THIS was what you got with a FA - I just told him quietly that this was "not FA".... several times - it was kind of funny when I told him -very quietly !!! - I did the retrieves with a clicker.....he threw his hands up in the air and walked away from the whole group...and her daughter will do retrieves just as nicely with barely any training except the front and out....so in my mind, obedience training success is as much genetics of the dog as philosophy.

Lee


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I have done pups from 9 weeks and trained them, and had others I let go to over a year before working....one of my girls lives with friends, as a pet, constantly has a cuz or toy in her mouth, and when I finally got to start working her was super drivy....nothing was done to "build" drive - it was there....


Yep, if it's there, it's there, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.  When I first got Vinca, I figured she was a lower-drive puppy, which was absolutely FINE with me as I didn't plan on doing sport or anything. So I did absolutely nothing to try and "build" drive. It showed up anyway!


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Male pups **generally** mature more slowly than females - the first few males I had were rock stars from day 1 - Ghost, Wolf, Cito and Danger and now apparently little Koug as well....but most of the pups I know of from todays popular WGR lines mature more slowly than their female peers....
> 
> I have done pups from 9 weeks and trained them, and had others I let go to over a year before working....one of my girls lives with friends, as a pet, constantly has a cuz or toy in her mouth, and when I finally got to start working her was super drivy....nothing was done to "build" drive - it was there....a couple of very very highlevel experienced trainers/helpers have critiqued her as a rock star LOL LOL without any knowledge of her 100% full time job as a pet who does not even live with me.
> 
> ...


what a fantastic response! thank you!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

you're welcome.....

just don't do any thing that makes you unhappy.....don't argue it - just don't DO it! If the trainers are handling your dog too roughly - just find other training or change directions....it will not end well if you are unhappy....

If the dog has the genetic drive to work, then he will work....wait him out awhile and do tracking foundation....he is your responsibility and you have to do what is best for him in the long run....

Good luck

Lee


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I have a dog that is in this boat. She is 1.5yrs old, great at obedience and tracking but loses interest in bite work very quickly. She has tremendous prey drive, food drive and enjoys playing with ball and tug, but when it comes to bite work she could care less. Some days she shows a spark of real interest and performs well, but generally she loses interest after a few bites. She doesn't have stamina issues (I don't believe) as she is well exercised as we take regular 5-6 mile walks. It's hard to say what is really going on with her at bitework, maybe a mixture of uncertainty and lack of interest. I think also having a different helper on club day (saturday) vs the helper on Wednesday is confusing her. The Saturday helper is a late teen kid and not as experienced. I'm considering sticking to puppy bite (tug bitework) on Saturdays and leaving the real bitework until the weekday session with more experienced handler.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

pfitzpa1 said:


> I have a dog that is in this boat. She is 1.5yrs old, great at obedience and tracking but loses interest in bite work very quickly. She has tremendous prey drive, food drive and enjoys playing with ball and tug, but when it comes to bite work she could care less. Some days she shows a spark of real interest and performs well, but generally she loses interest after a few bites. She doesn't have stamina issues (I don't believe) as she is well exercised as we take regular 5-6 mile walks. It's hard to say what is really going on with her at bitework, maybe a mixture of uncertainty and lack of interest. I think also having a different helper on club day (saturday) vs the helper on Wednesday is confusing her. The Saturday helper is a late teen kid and not as experienced. I'm considering sticking to puppy bite (tug bitework) on Saturdays and leaving the real bitework until the weekday session with more experienced handler.


The skill and knowledge of the helper is the key to training!!!! I have seen/know of pups where a club helper cannot get a response at all - condemn the pup as 'no drive' and 'weak nerved'....when the pup really has tons of drive and solid nerves....one pup I sold (pre tested by several trainers - both nationally known SAR and well respected schutzhund helper) was evaluated by a couple of small club novice helpers who could not get anything from her - the dog was then seen by a more experienced knowledgable trainer who immediately got the dog into drive and showed everything the owner and I knew was there....IMO there is no point in working a pup with a trainer/decoy/helper who is not knowledgable enough to get the pup into drive and sustain it...if the t/d/h cannot read the pup correctly - you are wasting your time and possibly going backwards with the dog.

The flip side is that if a very good, experienced t/d/h cannot sustain interest in the work, the dog may not have the genetic foundation to succeed in training.

Lee


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Like Lee said!
We have 2 brand new helpers at our club and my 18mos old girl doesn't work well on them. The first time she actually sat down and did the head tilt thing to him, the whole club cracked up. So one of the experienced helpers walked over and just made one tiny movement and she lit up. For the next few weeks we only had her get maybe 1 bite from the new guy (how can he get better at it without the practice?). 
My husband and I both feel like the girls at this age are pretty "moody" and can be unsure. They need to be supported through this time, encouraged and not made to feel threatened or unsure. They will shut down and come back to the handler (assuming they trust the handler) which will cause issues. 
I'm living with a teenage daughter right now who can blow hot and cold, so I just try to remember that it is just a phase with both LOL. My daughter and the dog will both mature through this and will be grown up soon enough. Just like my daughter seems pretty grown up, she would absolutely collapse if I sent her to college right now. The dog is the same way, she seems pretty much grown up, but she is not ready for some of the work yet, but will be soon enough. In the meantime, an experienced helper is what she needs.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

bocron said:


> Like Lee said!
> We have 2 brand new helpers at our club and my 18mos old girl doesn't work well on them. The first time she actually sat down and did the head tilt thing to him, the whole club cracked up. So one of the experienced helpers walked over and just made one tiny movement and she lit up. For the next few weeks we only had her get maybe 1 bite from the new guy (how can he get better at it without the practice?).
> My husband and I both feel like the girls at this age are pretty "moody" and can be unsure. They need to be supported through this time, encouraged and not made to feel threatened or unsure. They will shut down and come back to the handler (assuming they trust the handler) which will cause issues.
> I'm living with a teenage daughter right now who can blow hot and cold, so I just try to remember that it is just a phase with both LOL. My daughter and the dog will both mature through this and will be grown up soon enough. Just like my daughter seems pretty grown up, she would absolutely collapse if I sent her to college right now. The dog is the same way, she seems pretty much grown up, but she is not ready for some of the work yet, but will be soon enough. In the meantime, an experienced helper is what she needs.


Thanks, that's comforting to know. I'm doing Sch mostly as a fun thing my dog and I can participate in together, so I am in no rush. I'm going to stick with the more experienced handler and take it slow.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

1.5 is still young I think. I usually think of a "sleeper" as a dog that starts working around 2 years old. Even 6 months I think is very young to be called a "sleeper" but I have used that term with my dog because seeing him light up now at 22 months it's hard to imagine he was so mellow and calm at 6 months.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I worked Anja on an inexperienced helper once and she yawned at them-at the time I was not amused-now it just cracks me up-maybe she should be a dog at a helper seminar


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