# Reading pedigree help for potential puppy.



## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Well ive been looking for breeders around my area. I found one who seems pretty good. She currently has a pup that is exactly what im looking for as far as potential size, color, sex and the right price for me. The sire and dam are said to be from east german lines. So the breeder sent me the pedigree for the parents. If someone can read it and give me thwir opinions, that be great. Thanks

Sire
De Juco Gizmo

Dams sister Bacall Vom Benza Haus

Dam in paper form is the attached picture

Thanks!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

What does the breeder do with her dogs? THe things you listed should be low on the list of things to looks for, honestly. You should be focusing on nerve strength, balanced drives, breeder knowledge (does she work her dogs, what's his/her experience, are they just buying dogs, getting them to two years old and breeding them to make puppies, maybe doing a hip/elbow cert?) what the breeder does with their dogs to prove they are breedable, etc. I just glanced at the first pedigree and it looks like some back yard breeding. There are some good resources on here as to what to look for in an ethical breeder. This is just a glance, and some suggestions. Don't rush into getting a puppy because they are available. Nerve strength (dogs the are fearful) is a real problem in our breed and little attention is paid by a lot of breeders that aren't actually testing it in their breeding stock.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Good DDR breeding with pedigree depth for natural tracking , hunt / search drives.
These are not obscure dogs , or a passel of back yard dogs by any means.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

DaniFani said:


> What does the breeder do with her dogs? THe things you listed should be low on the list of things to looks for, honestly. You should be focusing on nerve strength, balanced drives, breeder knowledge (does she work her dogs, what's his/her experience, are they just buying dogs, getting them to two years old and breeding them to make puppies, maybe doing a hip/elbow cert?) what the breeder does with their dogs to prove they are breedable, etc. I just glanced at the first pedigree and it looks like some back yard breeding. There are some good resources on here as to what to look for in an ethical breeder. This is just a glance, and some suggestions. Don't rush into getting a puppy because they are available. Nerve strength (dogs the are fearful) is a real problem in our breed and little attention is paid by a lot of breeders that aren't actually testing it in their breeding stock.


I didnt go to in depth. As far as breeding, she said shes been breed GSD for 25 years. With this current female i believe she said she was 3 years old and this is her first litter. She said ths female ia more of a couch potato while the male is more active. I didnt ask about activities or showing that shes done with them.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

carmspack said:


> Good DDR breeding with pedigree depth for natural tracking , hunt / search drives.
> These are not obscure dogs , or a passel of back yard dogs by any means.


Okay good. Thanks for the help!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Carm are you saying this based on dogs 3 or 4 generations back, or do you know the dam and sire or grandparenst? Genuinely curious.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The sire was from a somewhat local breeder who was producing lots of DDR line puppies some years back....just looking for heads size color....lots of stuff locally from this breeder plus 2 others they traded dogs around with.....tons of dogs locally with bad hips, EPI, eplilepsy, OCD - one buyer about 2 miles from me had 5 or 6 dogs from this group....Haus Maul was one of the other kennel names used...they pop up here and there still locally.

Lee


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> The sire was from a somewhat local breeder who was producing lots of DDR line puppies some years back....just looking for heads size color....lots of stuff locally from this breeder plus 2 others they traded dogs around with.....tons of dogs locally with bad hips, EPI, eplilepsy, OCD - one buyer about 2 miles from me had 5 or 6 dogs from this group....Haus Maul was one of the other kennel names used...they pop up here and there still locally.
> 
> Lee


I just noticed youre in PA. This breeder is in stoystown. Im thinking youre talking about the lady that is seling this pup. Should i stay away? And she did mention she traded a couple dogs for the dam lol


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Is that a normal amount of line breeding for a breeder on the male? I don't breed so wouldn't know whats better or not but this seems more than usual? Not sure I can figure this out ---> http://www.thedogplace.org/GENETICS/Dog-Breeding_Gammill-098.asp

Linebreeding

Linebreeding - 5 generations	Inbreeding coefficient
Father - Mother	Who	Wright's	Hardiman's
4 - 4	V Duran vom Weidegang	00.78%	03.32%
↳5 - 5 ↳G Dsheta von den Gnitzer Höhen 
4 - 4	SG Filou vom Kaolinsee	00.79%	03.32%
↳5 - 5 ↳V Bessy vom Kaolinsee 
5,5 - 5	V Mentor vom Haus Iris	00.20%	02.59%
5 - 5,5	SG Condor von den Tonteichen	00.20%	02.54%

Remember no breeder bashing is allowed on this forum, but you can PM any information that you want to pass on, and good stuff can obviously be on the open part of the forum.

I also live in PA and I know I have to be super careful when looking at breeders to avoid all the puppy millers and Amish puppy mills that we have in the state. So if you are widening your search you need to be very careful to 'vet' the breeder. Make sure you talk to others with past puppies, go to see the home they are born in, see mom dog for sure and sire if he's on site. 

REALLY make sure you learn most of the stuff on this link ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html and http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nk-how-tell-good-breeder-website-bad-one.html . Huge help when winding your way around to start finding the best puppy for the next 12 or so years.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Is that a normal amount of line breeding for a breeder on the male? I don't breed so wouldn't know whats better or not but this seems more than usual? Not sure I can figure this out ---> SUCCESSFUL DOG BREEDING, LINEBREEDING, INBREEDING, OUTCROSSING
> 
> Linebreeding
> 
> ...


What is it to 'vet' a breeder?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Alexp08 said:


> What is it to 'vet' a breeder?


I just mean to really do 'due diligence' to work out which breeder has dogs that you love and a breeding program you support.

When getting ANY puppy there is no guarantee, genetics can always throw some crazy in the mix. But if have a breeder with great ethics, breeding the type of dog you love, that knows the ins and outs all the hundreds of genetic ISSUES (health and temperament) and are doing their best to improve their dogs with each and every litter..... then that's a breeder who gets my $$$.

I am paying for their background, experience, learning and constant trying to do better. I'm paying cause I agree with what they are trying to do with their program. I'm paying them so they can continue and do the right thing because my $$$ shows my support.

And this should definitely increase my chances of getting the dog I want, while never being 100% guarantee (once again with the darn genetics). 

There are HUGE problems in the breed right now that I know I want to avoid. A GSD is too large to have behavioral issues that I have to deal with. And also large enough that medical issues can also be vast and expensive as the dog grows. 

If I spend the time and $$$ on the front end with the best breeder I can afford THAT HAS THE DOGS I LIKE (it's not just about money, there are crap breeders that get a ton of money from unsuspecting new puppy owners) then chances are I will also get the puppy I was dreaming I'd get.

Tons of great information on finding a great BREEDER (and then getting the great puppy). on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html rather than finding a puppy picture on line you fall in love with, and knowing nothing about the breeder and their program except they cashed your check


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

DaniFani I am going to attempt to give you an answer to your questioning of my response which was that this 
De Juco Gizmo

Dams sister Bacall Vom Benza Haus

was a good pedigree.

Wolfstraum you provided this information on the BREEDER
"The sire was from a somewhat local breeder who was producing lots of DDR line puppies some years back....just looking for heads size color....lots of stuff locally from this breeder plus 2 others they traded dogs around with.....tons of dogs locally with bad hips, EPI, eplilepsy, OCD - one buyer about 2 miles from me had 5 or 6 dogs from this group....Haus Maul was one of the other kennel names used...they pop up here and there still locally."

which I am saddened to hear . Honestly though head and colour and look are pretty basic to most DDR and even Czech breeders , even if they invest 10's or $$$ to import some renowned stud . I don't know the breeders that you are referencing , their standards or their results . That would have been a different question --- what do you folks know about this breeder . 
The question was about the pedigree . I said it was good and I will stand by that and try to show you how I came to that conclusion.

I look at pedigrees in search of schemes which have proven themselves - rather than re-invent the wheel - for specialized litters that I have in the works in the near future . This practice has been ongoing for years - 

The sire of the litter , good to standard work able balanced conformation and size . 
No reports on his talents - 
His sire I would expect to exhibit the genetic endowment of his ancestors , many of which I have looked at before and many which I have accumulated over the years for my own line development. Indications of tracking talent through FH 2's and 3's . 
Grandsire Rasputin --- son of reliable source of working , search/tracking dogs Tino who brings in solid character of Bernd Lierberg in addition to OLDer DDR dogs , not the pretty-boys which are the current marketing vision of the DDR .
Rasputin was recommended for improving hardness and fighting drive . That was/is hard to come by in DDR lines - most which are bred for "the look" .
Info on DDR forum (German language) Ostblut-Schäferhundforum ? Thema anzeigen - Rasputin vom Flossgraben 

Here you will see our friend Cliff with comment about Rasputins working character. DDR Legends Discussion Board | Working Dogs Forum ? View topic - Rasputin v Flossgraben

Uncas Poppitz --- know this one through Parchimer Land -- Cathy's Gus , is out of a Parchimer Land female --- looked into Uncas before settling on the pedigree -- also know Uncas through Terri's von Birkenwald dogs . Long time ago I used her Droll vd Schopf , and later DDR import Klockow's Lex so that gives us some years of history and knowing what she liked in a dog. She has two Uncas males from a Parchimer Land breeding. Good strong character . 
The information on Lord Gleisdreieck has been covered many times on the forum. 
Ayka haus Iris --- Herr Seidler knew how to put together a good working dog - hitting it out of the park with his M and R litter (Mira / Rex) capitalizing on B Lierberg . 

The dam - Bacall Vom Benza Haus example of a reverse mask 
not the most flattering picture - living the country life 
some repetitions in this pedigree seen on the sire 
Uncas Poppitz etc,

Has dogs which I am familiar with - Dargo von den Thuringer Kronjuwelen (had a son) who I used for 2 breedings -- very sound confident sure dogs - also Klockow's Lex , who when I bred to him produced an RCMP dog and a brood which is carried forward on nearly all my dogs --- again unshakeable temperament -- 
I believe Cliff knows Rieko Hena-C , possibly bred to him, so can add a few words . 
Tessy Parchimer Land I would know through Gus's mother who was her daughter . Carefree temperament -- consistent producer. 

the pedigree has all the cornerstones of working ddr dogs .

the other side of the equation is the raising of the young pups - giving them proper nutrition and proper social experience and exposure . That is the role of the breeder.
Has this breeder done this with this litter ? I do not know . That is something that you have to investigate for yourself.

All I know is that I have looked at hundreds of pedigrees in the last while . There was a purpose . That was to secure a young female with complementary lines to what I have that will keep me going in the direction that I have chosen.

If I saw this pedigree without any other information I would take the time to find out more .

hope this has been of interest


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wondering what the OP is thinking about with the information given?


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

carmspack said:


> wondering what the OP is thinking about with the information given?


I passed on this pup and breeder. The breeder was never able to get me references from any past litters and she mentioned she had something like 23 or 26 dogs on her farm :-/
So im continuing my seach. Ive actually been looking at shiloh shepherds lately as trying to find a responsible GSD breeder in my general area is just annoying me. Im finding pups everyday but theyre either way outside of breed standard, dont have health testing for the parents, or the person just sounds like a idiot and knows nothing about the shepherds linage that they bred. 
I was able to find on very reputable breeder about a hour from me but theyre looking for 3k for their pups and thats too much for me at this point. 
So anyways my search continues


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so go outside of your area.

$3,000 sounds like it might have been a show line pup.

There are some great litters on this forum , right now, Lisa's and Lee's - and they are not anywhere near that price. And they are seriously good litters.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Alexp08 said:


> I passed on this pup and breeder. The breeder was never able to get me references from any past litters and she mentioned she had something like 23 or 26 dogs on her farm :-/
> So im continuing my seach. Ive actually been looking at shiloh shepherds lately as trying to find a responsible GSD breeder in my general area is just annoying me. Im finding pups everyday but theyre either way outside of breed standard, dont have health testing for the parents, or the person just sounds like a idiot and knows nothing about the shepherds linage that they bred.
> I was able to find on very reputable breeder about a hour from me but theyre looking for 3k for their pups and thats too much for me at this point.
> So anyways my search continues


$3000 would be too much for me too. 

If you go up to the narrow dark strip along the top of the page, and click on User CP, get your GENERAL location in there. People may know breeders in your area but not know where that is.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

From my understanding the 3k pups are from hardcore working lines. And when i say general area, im looking at like a 3 hour radius.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lee and Lisa are hard core working lines.
Mine are hard core working lines . I've looked
at a lot of pedigrees of good hard core working lines
and they were not $3,000 at a pup's age -- with development and training , added value , yes .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Alexp08 said:


> I was able to find on very reputable breeder about a hour from me but theyre looking for 3k for their pups and thats too much for me at this point.
> So anyways my search continues





Alexp08 said:


> From my understanding the 3k pups are from hardcore working lines. And when i say general area, im looking at like a 3 hour radius.


Stop! Ugh!

I know of one litter ready to be born and another one planned that will produce great pups, both from WUSV sires and IPO3 females. Neither will be 3k.

I'm going to say this to you again....get off the internet, go to clubs and watch the dogs. You will find your breeder and you won't pay 3k for a working line puppy.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I'm going to say this to you again....get off the internet, go to clubs and watch the dogs. You will find your breeder and you won't pay 3k for a working line puppy.


What would you expect to pay, hypothetically?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

1500-1800 is normal for a working line puppy.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> What would you expect to pay, hypothetically?


Well i cant really go over 1500. So if i cant find one liwer than that ill just have to pick another breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

a few hundred would be a deal breaker? So shiloh is something you'd consider? I personally would really, really research the history and who is breeding them. You'll find that the GSD is a bargain in comparison....price point in purchase is the small NOW. The down the road picture is what you should be looking at.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liulfr said:


> What would you expect to pay, hypothetically?


1500-2000. Almost all working line are within that range. You'll get health guarantee, limited registration lifted with requirements met, contract.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> a few hundred would be a deal breaker? So shiloh is something you'd consider? I personally would really, really research the history and who is breeding them. You'll find that the GSD is a bargain in comparison....price point in purchase is the small NOW. The down the road picture is what you should be looking at.


Well im looking at a bit of both. I have X amount of funds now for a puppy and Y amout coming in for shots, vet visits, etc. If i spend more on X that money comes out of Y. For the record ik not a cheap ass, im just laid off ATM so funds are limited. As far as the shiloh there is a very reputable breedee in the shiloh world (did alot of research on them) about 45 mins from my house. 
As far as a couple hundred breaking the budget, yes. When i first started looking for a second pup my budget was 750. Ive dounled that so i cant go any more.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are currently laid off, then I think you wait. All it takes is one serious illness, or one injury, to incur thousands in vet costs.

No Shiloh for me. As far as I can tell the whole organization is shady. They allow zero criticism or discussion of the illnesses their dogs have.


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

I had a Shiloh shepherd and we dealt with three chronic autoimmune conditions throughout her lifetime. The purchase price (which was quite high at the time) was only the beginning. I would research very carefully, or consider a different breed and/or breeder with a proven health record.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> Well im looking at a bit of both. I have X amount of funds now for a puppy and Y amout coming in for shots, vet visits, etc. If i spend more on X that money comes out of Y. For the record ik not a cheap ass, im just laid off ATM so funds are limited. As far as the shiloh there is a very reputable breedee in the shiloh world (did alot of research on them) about 45 mins from my house.
> As far as a couple hundred breaking the budget, yes. When i first started looking for a second pup my budget was 750. Ive dounled that so i cant go any more.


Then I would think now is not a good time to bring a pup home. A "health guarantee" is not all-inclusive. There are any number of conditions or issues that could arise and cost you a lot more than just the routine puppy visits.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> Then I would think now is not a good time to bring a pup home. A "health guarantee" is not all-inclusive. There are any number of conditions or issues that could arise and cost you a lot more than just the routine puppy visits.


On the contrary. Ive thought about serious health issues and i have a emergency credit card for something just like that. And being off work right now means i will be able to devote alot of time to training. 

As far as researchinh shilohs goes, correct me if im wring but then seem to have the same amount of health problems as any other larger breed dog, some sites say less. The most common seems to be pancreatitis


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

training for what?

Shiloh's are not bred for work or sport considerations. They are "teddy-bear" couch dogs for those that like a GSD look-a-like , extra big size, emphasis on size.

If you are looking to do sport training a Shiloh would frustrate and disappoint you .


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> Liulfr said:
> 
> 
> > Then I would think now is not a good time to bring a pup home. A "health guarantee" is not all-inclusive. There are any number of conditions or issues that could arise and cost you a lot more than just the routine puppy visits.
> ...


If you've got a plan, go for it. Good luck with your search!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jax08 said:


> *If you are currently laid off, then I think you wait.* All it takes is one serious illness, or one injury, to incur thousands in vet costs.
> 
> No Shiloh for me. As far as I can tell the whole organization is shady. They allow zero criticism or discussion of the illnesses their dogs have.


I agree with Jax08 on this. Even a healthy normal puppy can suddenly have an illness that costs over $1000. Just the normal feeding, vet bills and puppy classes always cost me way more then I THINK they are going to cost.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

carmspack said:


> training for what?
> 
> Shiloh's are not bred for work or sport considerations. They are "teddy-bear" couch dogs for those that like a GSD look-a-like , extra big size, emphasis on size.
> 
> If you are looking to do sport training a Shiloh would frustrate and disappoint you .


The breeder ive been looking into had dogs from past litters that are currently involved in SAR, therapy, and shutzhund. 

Btw sorry for any typos ive had. This is all being done on my phone


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## Kristie1 (Feb 6, 2016)

Thank u for such a review I'm glad to see u are so interested in posting about my kennel first off of u write a review u should have a little idea of what your talking about first off yes I have been breeding ddr dogs 20 years my dogs are health tested! I do personal protection with my dogs not every one who dosnt title their dogs is a **** breeder! First of all your saying I had all theis issues but your the only one with negitive comments out their on my kennel in 20 years! Gero wasn't a dog that produced tons of bad hips in 20 years I have had to replace 6 puppies!!! He had a a stamp bh title Dm neg and was a very strong male who is in many pedigree still today.I did that breeding with rannie parchimerland and storefront brawnson and didn't have 1 issue with any puppy's strong nerve good balanced drives and super good working dogs . The Czech litter u said I produced all bad hips that's absolutely a lie as a mater of fact Tessa Von der haus Maul from that litter died last year as a k9 hero. She is getting a brick placed next week on the veterans wall in Florida! I never had 1 bad hip from that litter. Lies lies U have been posting the same bs about me for years and your posting lies! So if that makes u feel better about your own dogs so be it but I feel unless it's fact your shouldn't be posting about some one when u have no true Statements Their are many breeders still breeding my lines from those dogs today. I find it funny u basically state every dog I have is crap that in itself proves u have no idea truly about them ur just posting garbage! All those crap dogs were top working dogs when they were in Germany I buy them every one turned into **** in your eyes you only ever saw one of my females at the club! My dogs are imports or from imports and health tested and are part of our family we have many happy people who have bought our dogs and continue to love this breed in the last several years i have produced 1-2 litters per year I haven't had a bad hip in a dog in over 12 years!! I'm sure with every breeder your going to have a issue hear and their that's given but your the only one seems to post bad things so as u say I have produced tons of litters if your the only one posting nasty stuff I guess I must be doing doing very well as a breeder wish I could say the same about you! Thank u for all that posted the positive things about this post and yes those breeders u say I'm friends with that just fell off the grid are still breeding and traninng with me! Personally I don't need to prove myself to u as every one to their own. You raise what it is u call a German shepherd I'll do the same! My goal is more than a title Its a all around good solid balanced dog that can have good working ablilitys and be a great loving family dog I have owned top sch titled dogs and that's just a number producing good sound dogs that can do real scenario work and be a loyal companion is just as important
To me. Kristie


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## Kristie1 (Feb 6, 2016)

I should have noted this post it intended for wolfstram posting!


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