# I finally figured it out!



## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

I recently went to the Wildhaus Kennels site and printed out a bunch of their articles...very helpful by the way! I read through the article about the different kinds of German Shepherd lines. It is all starting to make sense now! People used to always ask me what kind of lines I wanted to get a pup from and I never really knew what the differences were. And I definitely didn't know how much the dog's temperament, drives, nerves, etc. would vary from line to line. 

I think I have decided that we should buy from a working line. The article definitely implies that dogs from working lines will typically require more work/time/dedication than those from show lines; but everything I read about working lines sounds more like the kind of dog we want. If we bought from a show line I would just worry that we may end up with a dog with weak nerves or uneven temperament. We hope to someday do some protection training with our GSD and I think a working line dog will be much better suited for that than a show line dog. 

I'm actually thinking about contacting Chris & Tim here about getting a dog through their kennel. I really love what they have to say about their mission in breeding working dogs. I feel that the chances of getting a "true GSD" are great if I buy from them. 

Any advice? Should I still be considering a German Show Line?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Working line dogs are great and the Wilds are some of the best. You'll have to ask about shipping, though; I know they're pretty far away. 

I don't know if you're even interested or not, but Austin GSD rescue has a wonderful, well-bred working lines boy that we've been trying to get into a working home for some time. If you're not dead-set on a puppy (and I understand if you are) check out http://www.agsdr.org and click on Trooper's page. 

PS. I can definately vouch for these dogs requiring more of you. My working boy is practically a different breed from my pet-line dog.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

If you're talking strictly protection training, really, any line will do. It's more about the individual dog. If you're talking sport "protection" training, such as Schutzund and the like, that's a very different thing.

Working line dogs are typically more energetic, some may even use the term "high-strung". Nothing wrong with that, either, IF you have the time and energy to train and educate a pup from a working line.

Just curious, why do you think a show line dog would have uneven temperament or weak nerves?

Personally, unless you're looking to get involved with a particular class of formal field trial, I wouldn't rule out ANY line, except the puppy mills, which you obviously have.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cannot go wrong with a working line as long as the dog is well bred and well matched! My first dog was a working line female GSD.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootJust curious, why do you think a show line dog would have uneven temperament or weak nerves?


I know this wouldn't always be the case. But it seems many like show line breeders will be more concerned with aesthetics, look, beauty, etc. than they will be with breeding for temperament, drive, ability, nerves, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong in making that assumption...?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Glad you enjoyed our articles and found them helpful but in all honesty it's only fair to admit that article was written by someone with a definite preference for working lines.







I'm also curious about why you'd think a show line dog would have uneven temperament or weak nerves... because if you got that from my article I need to rewrite something because I didn't mean to convey that. 

A poorly bred dog from ANY line can have these problems. The more thoroughly tested the temperaments of the parents the less likely this is to happen. And performance titles of any type are a much better test of temperament than just conformation showing. That being the biggest danger with *some* show lines from *some* breeders. A lack of testing and breeding for temperament creating problems from the "if you don't use it you lose it" standpoint. But you can certainly find a well temperamented, solid nerved dog from show lines and your chances of doing so would be good if you focus on show line breeders who train and test and title their dogs in things other than just conformation showing.

Biggest suggestion I would have for ANYONE trying to decide what type to look for is to get out and meet, in person, dogs of the various types. Hang out with the dogs, talk to their owners, and get a true feel for what they are like. Visit breeders of all 3 types and visit training clubs where different types are represented. This is much better than just reading about them and seeing photos on the internet. After you've seen several representatives of the different types, you'll be able to get a real feel for what the typical differences in type are, and most importantly you'll probably find that you seem to "click" better with one type over the others.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootJust curious, why do you think a show line dog would have uneven temperament or weak nerves?
> ...


I'm not REAL knowledgable with show lines, but I would think they'd HAVE to have good temperament and NOT be nervous wrecks to be able to allow all that handling by strangers.

And, yes, I'd venture to guess that their prey drive is not as strong as a working line dog, however, if the protection part of the all-around training you're planning is personal protection like I think you meant, i.e. protecting you and your family, etc., you wouldn't necessarily need a working line dog.

Not that there's anything wrong with a working line dog. I just thought, if I read your OP correctly, that you might be limiting yourself too much, because I've encountered some "regular" dogs that kicked a$$ as personal protection dogs over other supposed "genetically superior" dogs.

In fact, sometimes the calmer dog can be more quickly pick up what they're supposed to do, and still be able to pay close attention to you, even while doing their job. On the other hand, some dogs end up being SO focused, especially when highly aroused, that it's more work to teach them to "un-focus" a bit to keep tabs on you and what you're trying to communicate to them when they are in the midst of an apprehension or detainment, does that make sense?

That's why I said the individual dog is more important. It would also really suck if the dog was so keen on aggressive work that you had to watch him all the time, you know what I mean? Kind of like some dogs like to fetch, while others don't. The one that likes to fetch wants to do it ALL the time, and it requires more work to get him to understand that he can't always play fetch.

With that said, dogs that love aggressive work need to be trained differently. So, make sure the trainer you get for the protection side is experienced and open-minded, as each dog is different, I don't care what anybody says.

Now, I don't know what else you think you might want to do with your new dog, either, so please, take what I say with a grain of salt, and choose the type of dog that suits your needs and wants. I am in no way trying to scare you off your original intent, as I'm sure you've already considered the many factors of having a protection dog, I'm merely offering some additional info as food for thought, in case you hadn't considered it.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI'm also curious about why you'd think a show line dog would have uneven temperament or weak nerves... because if you got that from my article I need to rewrite something because I didn't mean to convey that.


No, your article did not convey that. But your article did help me realize that often times show line breeders may disregard things like temperament, nerves, drive, etc. and simply breed for looks. A buyer may end up with a dog that can impress conformation judges but doesn't have the temperament or nerve to succeed in protection training, or even to serve as a trustworthy protective family companion. Well, at least that's what I understood from the article. And yes, I could tell there was a little bias toward working lines...nevertheless, the info on show lines was good for me to read.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI'm not REAL knowledgable with show lines, but I would think they'd HAVE to have good temperament and NOT be nervous wrecks to be able to allow all that handling by strangers.


Well, my experience has been that isn't true. Most any dog can be conditioned to cope with a very narrow set of parameters in a specific environment that it is constantly exposed to. Removed from that conditioned environment and all bets are off. Handlers are typically not strangers either. In many cases, the dogs live and travel with their handlers, not their actual owners. Plus a lot of them still are nervous wrecks.

And a lot of them are not. But that comes down to the individual dog. Some are sound, some are not, but the show ring isn't sufficient testing to determine one from the other. Then it also depends on what one defines as "good temperament".


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris WildI'm also curious about why you'd think a show line dog would have uneven temperament or weak nerves... because if you got that from my article I need to rewrite something because I didn't mean to convey that.
> ...


Ok, that is what I meant to convey.









Really it comes down to finding a breeder who does pay attention and work for a balanced dog, and not place all their eggs in one basket and let other, possibly more important, things fall by the wayside in their push for success in one specific area. Breeders who focus too much on one thing, and breeders who strive for balance, can be found in all the lines.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Chris, that was, as Keanu Reeves would say, "a most excellent" post.









Please understand that I am in no way trying to sway the OP away from your working line dogs. I'm simply trying to point out some things to consider, given the OP's designs for the OP's next dog.

With that said, now I'm really curious about your line, so I'm off to check out what you guys are all about!


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

Well, if BOTH working line breeders and show line breeders are capable of producing dogs who are well suited to be protective family companions with even temperament, sound nerves, and great intelligence/trainability, then I guess the difficulty I am having is deciding which line would fit our lifestyle better.

While we will NOT be the dog owners whose dog is banished to the backyard and only gets taken for walks and played with when the owner has a spare 30 minutes (I could never do that to a dog!), we also won't have 3 or 4 hours everyday to dedicate to playing with and exercising the dog. Our future GSD will be a member of our family. He/she will live inside with us, and we will feel obligated to walk him/her everyday and play with him/her everyday. But since we will both be working full-time I know we won't be able to spend hours everyday "working" the dog.

My fear is a working line dog may require what we can't give it. Yet if we get a show line dog we will end up with one who doesn't have the "true GSD" qualities we so love. 

HELP! =)


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Chris, under the Protection link on you site, photo number 94 seems to be hypelinked wrong, because when you click on it, it is linked to pic 24. I think you have a typo there.

As an aside, the reason I was so interested in that pic is because I can't tell if you guys are using multiple agitators there, and wanted to zoom in to see. If so, good show, Chris, because that's more likely to happen in real life, and it's good to see someone who trains dogs to be aware of multiple perps. Me likey! [Where's that icon of the little guy drooling?)


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Are you looking to raise a dog from a pup? Or, do you need a protection dog first, then a family companion? I ask because from what I see so far, Chris might be able to provide you with an already properly protection-trained adult that's trained for a family, too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Holly, honestly I think there could be the right dog for you in ANY line, it will come down to the individual litter and dogs. I would start attending events so you can meet dogs and breeders. You can find a breeder who you trust and "click" with. They will help provide you with what you need.

I have a show line dog and a working line dog. I also work full time and don't spend hours one-on-one with my dogs (I also have a third dog, a mutt). They each require different types of attention and stimulation. My show dog is neither lazy, nervy, nor dumb and my working line dog is is not out of control.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI'm not REAL knowledgable with show lines, but I would think they'd HAVE to have good temperament and NOT be nervous wrecks to be able to allow all that handling by strangers.
> ...


Point well-taken, Chris, but I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. I mean, I didn't mean handling by JUST handlers. I meant ALL of what goes on on a show circuit. Judges, groomers, the inevitable contact in the general confines of the shows, fans, etc.

But, yep, individuality is key, here


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootAre you looking to raise a dog from a pup? Or, do you need a protection dog first, then a family companion? I ask because from what I see so far, Chris might be able to provide you with an already properly protection-trained adult that's trained for a family, too.


Well, I would like to start with a pup. I feel like I will bond better if I raise the dog from a pup. I guess we really don't NEED a protection dog. But I am so amazed, intrigued, impressed, and interested in the skills of a trained protection GSD and would love to have one for my family (especially once we start having children). But honestly, we are looking for a companion and hope that he/she will instinctively be protective. Then later we may do protection training. Does that answer the question? I feel like I got off a tangent. =)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting puppies, but I don't think the bonding thing is true. My first two dogs I got as adults and the bond could not be stronger. My puppy....I'm still learning about his quirks and his temperament changes here and there. With an adult you have a very clear picture of the dog's temperament and drives. With a pup, you can shape this to an extent but genetics plays a huge role. That's why it's important to find a breeder that knows the breed and knows their dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootChris, under the Protection link on you site, photo number 94 seems to be hypelinked wrong, because when you click on it, it is linked to pic 24. I think you have a typo there.
> 
> As an aside, the reason I was so interested in that pic is because I can't tell if you guys are using multiple agitators there, and wanted to zoom in to see. If so, good show, Chris, because that's more likely to happen in real life, and it's good to see someone who trains dogs to be aware of multiple perps. Me likey! [Where's that icon of the little guy drooling?)


LOL.. thanks for the typo catch.

No, that isn't multiple agitators though. That's Wulf at only a little over a year old at a Bernhard Flinks seminar. Person in the background is Tim ready to catch the dog after Flinks swings him around.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Returning from that tangent back to the subject....









HBH, the idea that a pup will bond better than an adult really is a myth. Adults will bond fine. Lying next to me on the couch right now is a 12yo Kali who we imported from Germany when she was 5 years old. She'd always lived in a kennel and had never been a house dog. From her reaction when she arrived, I'm not sure she'd ever seen the inside of a house. Yet she's bonded just as tightly as the dogs we raised from puppyhood, and ended up being the worlds best house dog too.

Granted, there may be some unknown history there with adults. But in pups there's the crap shoot of unknown genetics... we can make predictions on what we expect a pup to turn out as based on what is known of the bloodlines and what is seen in the baby puppy, but those aren't always entirely accurate. Whereas with an adult, the animal is fully formed, health and temperament wise, and thus can be thoroughly evaluated. In terms of bonding, or risk, adult vs puppy really is a wash.

That said, nothing wrong with getting a puppy. But it comes down to personal preference. Some folks love pups and the puppy stage, others don't. Either way just want to make sure that preference is based in true preference and not common myths about adults not bonding or always having "baggage".


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: HBH I feel like I will bond better if I raise the dog from a pup.


Ha! Hahahahahah!







Bwahahahahahahaha!
















Tell that to my rescue boy, who's crazy-glue bonded to me, even MORE so than the dog I got at 10 weeks.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildReturning from that tangent back to the subject....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True. And I definitely agree. My statement about bonding was actually more about me than the dog. I feel as though *I* will bond more with the dog if I have raised it from a pup. That's not to say, though, that I don't think I could bond with a grown dog. I know I could. I just thought it might be better to start with a pup. It's kind of like that whole "it's different when it's your kid" thing. You know when someone else's kid throws up and you feel like running to the bathroom to hurl, and you say "God, I don't know how I'm going to deal with that when I have kids." Then the other person says, "It's different when it's YOUR kid." =)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Nah, pick the right adult and you'll fall head-over-heels for him/her too.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBHWell, if BOTH working line breeders and show line breeders are capable of producing dogs who are well suited to be protective family companions with even temperament, sound nerves, and great intelligence/trainability, then I guess the difficulty I am having is deciding which line would fit our lifestyle better.


Any line can produce soundly temperamented companions who will serve as a deterrent to bad guys.

Really, protection training is sort of a different topic entirely. If that is something you think you may pursue, you are best off looking at dogs bred to consistently have the qualities needed for this sort of work. BUT... you also should seriously consider protection training. This is NOT something to be taken lightly. It will involve a tremendous amount of training for the dog AND for the owners/handlers. We're talking a couple years worth to start, and then regular maintenance training. That all translates to time and money. Then there is the liability involved with owning a protection dog. And if the training isn't done correctly, things can go horribly wrong. Think of a protection dog as a gun with a mind of it's own. There is a huge responsibility there. 

There are some people who have a real need for a protection dog. But 99.9% of the population doesn't. A GSD who will look scary and bark at the door and make people think twice about any bad intentions they may have is enough.

I mention this because many people who aren't familiar with protection training have a romanticized view of it that doesn't really correlate to reality. So if you're thinking the ability to do protection training may be on your wish list for a dog, my suggestion would be in addition to visiting different breeders/clubs to see the different types of dogs, find some different protection training in your area (Police K9 departments and SchH clubs are a good place to start) and learn more about what is involved in this, and what it requires on the part of the dog and owners so you can make a more informed decision on if it's something you really need, are interested in doing and prepared to handle.


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## lilysmom (Dec 27, 2000)

Assumptions ? Yes I think you are.. every line has it's pros and cons. Personally, I have a showline that is "unflapable", as solid as they come. No sofa lounger here, must alway have a job. You need to research the dogs and the lines. IMO, I would never make the statement that showlines are weak nerved.


> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootJust curious, why do you think a
> ...


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

To add one thought to what Chris said, protection training is not something you can do halfway.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: lilysmomIMO, I would never make the statement that showlines are weak nerved.


I don't think showlines ARE weak nerved, nor did I say that. I think there are some show line breeders out there who will breed for looks while disregarding matters such as temperament, nerve, drive, workability, etc.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> While we will NOT be the dog owners whose dog is banished to the backyard and only gets taken for walks and played with when the owner has a spare 30 minutes (I could never do that to a dog!), we also won't have 3 or 4 hours everyday to dedicate to playing with and exercising the dog. Our future GSD will be a member of our family. He/she will live inside with us, and we will feel obligated to walk him/her everyday and play with him/her everyday. But since we will both be working full-time I know we won't be able to spend hours everyday "working" the dog.
> 
> My fear is a working line dog may require what we can't give it. Yet if we get a show line dog we will end up with one who doesn't have the "true GSD" qualities we so love.



There are plenty of working line dogs who would fit the bill nicely. It comes down to finding a breeder who breeds for balance (dogs who can work and be companions), and ideally one who has a proven track record of doing so. That's where checking for references from past customers is important. Then beyond that, being open and upfront with the breeder so they can select the right pup from the litter to fit your lifestyle (in other words, NOT the one with the highest drive, hardest most dominant personality, etc..) 

So working lines aren't out of the question just because you don't have all day, every day to "work" the dog. Most people don't, including those who own working lines.

But again, a well temperamented dog of either American or German show line type can fit the bill nicely too. And again it comes down to the individual breeder and individual dogs and having good communication between you and the breeder to make sure a good match is made.

Which sort of brings me back to recommending getting out and seeing several different representatives of each type (or at least certainly the types you think you might have a preference for) to get a more hands-on feel for if that type will be a good fit for you or not.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaTo add one thought to what Chris said, protection training is not something you can do halfway.


Yes I agree (with this statement and everything Chris said). It is simply something I have an interest in, but would NEVER embark on that journey unless I knew I could do it wholeheartedly. This is why we are definitely looking for a companion FIRST. 

I have a family member who bought a protection dog from a man who breeds and trains Czech protection dogs...you know those ones that cost a measly $8,000...anyway she and I have talked a lot about it and in the future I would love to own one of those.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildWhich sort of brings me back to recommending getting out and seeing several different representatives of each type (or at least certainly the types you think you might have a preference for) to get a more hands-on feel for if that type will be a good fit for you or not.


How exactly do I go about this?







Wow, my "newbie-ness" is showing!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Out of sheer morbid curiousity, and I'm honestly not judging or anything, why would you want a PPD? 

Maybe I have a different relationship with my dogs than most people, but I'd feel like I was being protected by my own kid. If my dog tried to protect me and got hurt or killed I wouldn't get over it. My sawed-off shotgun and I protect the dogs, not the other way around.

Again, I'm not judging or condemning, help me see what there is to want in a trained protection dog?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris WildWhich sort of brings me back to recommending getting out and seeing several different representatives of each type (or at least certainly the types you think you might have a preference for) to get a more hands-on feel for if that type will be a good fit for you or not.
> ...


Find training clubs in your area. You'll be able to see lots of working lines, and probably a few German show lines at SchH clubs. If there are GSD, or even all breed, AKC show clubs that is a good place to meet American line dogs. Obedience and/or agility training facilities or clubs can be a good way to find GSDs of all types.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: EmooreOut of sheer morbid curiousity, and I'm honestly not judging or anything, why would you want a PPD?
> 
> Maybe I have a different relationship with my dogs than most people, but I'd feel like I was being protected by my own kid. If my dog tried to protect me and got hurt or killed I wouldn't get over it. My sawed-off shotgun and I protect the dogs, not the other way around.
> 
> Again, I'm not judging or condemning, help me see what there is to want in a trained protection dog?


Well, for starters, the skills they have are amazing! It's crazy how smart they are!

Second, imagine this scenario: first you must change your sex - you are now a woman







Now imagine you are out in your neighborhood going for a walk, getting some exercise. You notice a man on the sidewalk on the other side of the street about 50 feet ahead of you. He then proceeds to cross the street to the sidewalk you are walking on and is walking toward you. Now, maybe he crossed the street because he's just a nice man and is walking a particular path that included crossing the street at that exact spot. Or perhaps he crossed the street because he sees a somewhat attractive young lady on the other side and -- well we won't go into any of the ideas he has. (Now, my husband would just want me to pack my 9 when I go out to exercise. But since I usually don't exercise in clothing that would allow me to conceal my 9, I say no.) Now imagine the same scenario except you have a trained protection GSD at your side. Most likely the man wouldn't bother crossing the street. But, if he did so ignorantly choose to do so, you simply and quietly give your PPD a comand and he takes a protective stance next to you warning the man coming towards you of what might happen if he chooses to engage you. The man sees this and decides to cross back to his side of the street. You smile, pat your sweet (and bad a$$) PPD on the head and continue your walk.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not sure where you are in TX, but Dallas and Amarillo have WDA trials coming up



> Quote:Mar 14-15
> Seagoville Working Dog Club - Lake Simonds Park, Bowen Road, Dallas TX
> Cllub Trial, SchH - IPO - BH - AD
> GSDCA-WDA/WPO/DPO Judge Michael West
> ...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Thing is, that whole scenario is covered by any GSD (or large breed of similar reputation). The deterrent factor is already there, so the guy is likely to stay on his side of the street to begin with just because you have a GSD. He won't know if it's a PPD or not, nor will he care. Easier pickin's elsewhere.

Add in some solid obedience training and teach the dog to bark on command and you're more than covered. Someone sees a GSD that is well trained, and barks... they're definitely going elsewhere. In most cases, they are going to assume a dog displaying that level of training is a PPD, and they won't know it's all a show.

Now, IF that guy kept coming, regardless of the presence of the dog... PPD or not, you'd better have that .9mm. Because if that's the case you can bet he's got a gun or other weapon with which to dispose of the dog, and then turn on you, and if that's the case whether the dog has PPD training or not may not influence the outcome.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Emoorehelp me see what there is to want in a trained protection dog?


Here's another:

You are again a woman taking a nice stroll around the block. You begin to hear footsteps not too far behind you and it sounds as though they are quickly catching up to you. You can:

A. Nervously look behind you, see that it's a male stranger, wonder why he's running up behind you, and run like **** to get away (since you don't know if he's coming at you or if he's just out for a run)

or

B. Have a PPD with you, give him a simple command and he will turn around, face the stranger approaching you while walking backwards at your side as you continue your stroll.

Now besides the fact that B is just totally amazing to me...it also sounds a lot safer.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Imagine you and your trained protection dog are walking by this man. You are suspicious because he is coming toward you and your GSD and not many people will. He is getting very close but has no ill intention. He seems like he's going to pass you up when he trips right by you, a very sudden movement which also surprises you. Your dog reacts and bites the #$%& out of him in defense of you because your dog was trained to react to sudden attacks and in the dog's wee mind this surely looked like an attack. Ooops.

The court has determined you are at fault and you are to pay a large settlement and your dog also has to pay- with its life.

Very, VERY few people will come after someone with a fully grown GSD, especially one that is barking (on command). If someone does, NO DOG WILL STOP THIS PERSON. A well placed bullet will. If you do want a trained protection dog, better dedicate a TON of money and time and training and get a very large umbrella policy to cover you in the event of an "oops." These days, every dog wears a "sue my owner" sign but a trained protection dog's signs are 50 feet large, in flashing neon, with sirens and the Goodyear Blimp. Please, just be very careful and VERY responsible. Any wrong move on your part could mean a lot of negative press for a breed that doesn't need any more bad news.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Holly, I understand where you are coming from. I am a young woman and I often walk my dogs alone at night or dusk and my neighborhood can be questionable at times. I have a 5 year old working line female GSD. She is only 21" and 60lbs at most (usually 55ish in the summer) and NO ONE has ever so much as looked at me the wrong way. My dog is soft for a working line and thus I don't do protection phase with her, but we do obedience together. If I feel threatened, all I have to do is command her to do a formal heel. Unless the person coming at us is under the influence of something, just the sight of a black nosed GSD being very obedient is enough of a deterrent. I've never needed to ask my dogs to alert, and honestly I think that would get me in some trouble without being 100% clear on the intentions of the other person. 

I really don't think you need to spend thousands on a pre-trained dog for this type of protection. Also as a new GSD owner it's really important that you do most of the training yourself. It will teach you about yourself as a handler and about your dogs. You will learn how to make more informed decisions about selecting and training future dogs. My Kenya has taught me so much.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Emoorehelp me see what there is to want in a trained protection dog?
> ...


But again, the very presence of a GSD, PPD trained or not, is going to likely make the person walk elsewhere anyway.

The later is just obedience training. 

Nothing you've described yet has anything to do with PPD training. It's just having a dog who looks the part with some good obedience training and a couple of impressive tricks hidden up his sleeve.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildThing is, that whole scenario is covered by any GSD (or large breed of similar reputation). The deterrent factor is already there, so the guy is likely to stay on his side of the street to begin with just because you have a GSD. He won't know if it's a PPD or not, nor will he care. Easier pickin's elsewhere.
> 
> Add in some solid obedience training and teach the dog to bark on command and you're more than covered. Someone sees a GSD that is well trained, and barks... they're definitely going elsewhere.
> 
> Now, IF that guy kept coming, regardless of the presence of the dog... PPD or not, you'd better have that .9mm. Because if that's the case you can bet he's got a gun or other weapon with which to dispose of the dog, and then turn on you, and if that's the case whether the dog has PPD training or not may not influence the outcome.


All very true! But the extra skills a PPD has - I think - would guarantee your safety to a greater degree. Also, if the guy had a weapon, PPDs are trained to go after the weapon-holding arm.

Ok, ok, people, I know that PPDs are in most cases unnecessary. I just think they're awesome. And one day, if I can afford one, I'd like to own one.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Now, IF that guy kept coming, regardless of the presence of the dog... PPD or not, you'd better have that .9mm. Because if that's the case you can bet he's got a gun or other weapon with which to dispose of the dog, and then turn on you, and if that's the case whether the dog has PPD training or not may not influence the outcome.


People who seriously have protection dogs use them as tools to delay the attacker long enough to either A) run away or B) pull out a gun. There is nothing romantic in the real world of protection dogs. They're just a tool that you use to buy yourself time to save your own life. Someone who is coming through a snarling, 85 lb GSD is likely very high on the worst drugs out there so they are not going to feel the dog's jaws on their bare arm. They will, however, take their gun or their lead pipe and off the dog and if you're still hanging around and weaponless, you're next. 

Please find a way to wear your gun! It won't do you any good if it's safely tucked away at home.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

By the way, the family member I spoke of earlier...she has previously been stalked and she travels without her husband often. So she felt her case warranted a PPD.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

They are awesome and there's no shame in admiring them or wanting them. However, I always wonder about people who purchase these expensive, pre-trained dogs. I have bonded with my dogs mostly through our training. I can't imagine expecting a dog to give it's life for me and not doing the training myself.

The PPD guarantees nothing. The only dog I know of who was killed by a home intruder is the one that was trained to attack the intruder. He was shot and killed. I know someone else who has some Boxer dogs and this guy broke into her house to rape her. Her dogs were sick so they were lying at her side but the sight of them being there was enough to make the guy turn. He did have a weapon. If the dogs had been commanded to charge I can only assume he would have used his weapon instead of leaving and running away.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:But the extra skills a PPD has - I think - would guarantee your safety to a greater degree.


How many times do people react before thinking despite training? And we're HUMANS. Supposedly the most intelligent animals on the planet. Do you really want to put all that trust into a dog that is less intelligent than a human? Dogs are highly trained to situations and they do not generalize well. An elderly person falling who suddenly reaches out to try and brace against you is going to be seen as an attacker by your dog. When you have a trained PPD, you have a very real liability. It's nice to have that Rin Tin Tin dream but the reality is anything but.



> Quote:Also, if the guy had a weapon, PPDs are trained to go after the weapon-holding arm.


Have you talked to any real PPD people? I believe this is a huge myth, but again, a nice Rin Tin Tin dream.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMPeople who seriously have protection dogs use them as tools to delay the attacker long enough to either A) run away or B) pull out a gun. There is nothing romantic in the real world of protection dogs. They're just a tool that you use to buy yourself time to save your own life. Someone who is coming through a snarling, 85 lb GSD is likely very high on the worst drugs out there so they are not going to feel the dog's jaws on their bare arm. They will, however, take their gun or their lead pipe and off the dog and if you're still hanging around and weaponless, you're next.
> 
> Please find a way to wear your gun! It won't do you any good if it's safely tucked away at home.


I know all of this. I really am just being a little facetious (I have no idea how to spell that word). It's mainly that I'm just impressed with the work a PPD can do. I don't romanticize it (when I'm being realistic) and my husband and I often talk about how a PPD simply buys a person time to grab their gun. We are gun owners, and until I get a CHL I choose to carry pepper spray when I exercise.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote: However, I always wonder about people who purchase these expensive, pre-trained dogs.


That's another thing. PPD sales are rife with scams. I mean, come on- no dog is worth $40,000 and I bet most of those dogs are just $40,000 lawn ornaments that would turn tail at the first sign of trouble.

I "met" one of those so-called protection dogs. The owners had to put the dog away and it was barking the whole time. What good is a PPD when it's not even safe to have around strangers?!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> All very true! But the extra skills a PPD has - I think - would guarantee your safety to a greater degree. Also, if the guy had a weapon, PPDs are trained to go after the weapon-holding arm.


Sometimes. Depends on the training. Better be a super fast dog if he's going to get there before the bullet gets him. And if he does grab the gun wielding arm while bad guy's finger is on the trigger, you and anyone else within 100 yards better duck and hope you aren't hit with stray bullets.

Even K9 officers will tell you that 99.9% of the dog's value is "fear factor". Bad guys give up because they're afraid of the dog. If the dog is deployed, and the bad guy has a weapon, it's pretty much a guaranteed injured or dead dog. Facing a bad guy with a gun, the most any K9 handler I've ever known or trained with hoped for was for his dog to buy him enough time to draw his own weapon. Because dog vs human with gun, or knife, or baseball bat, is going to go very, very badly for the dog.

Heck, my dogs are protection trained. Not just sport, but some PPD cross training as well. Under those circumstances, if the bad guy keeps coming, the most valuable command I have for the dog is a rock solid DOWN, to keep 'em out of my way so I get a clear shot at the SOB and don't accidentally hit my own dog.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote:Also, if the guy had a weapon, PPDs are trained to go after the weapon-holding arm.
> ...


This isn't a myth.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote: However, I always wonder about people who purchase these expensive, pre-trained dogs.
> ...


Well that was definitely a poor representation of a PPD...and nothing like the one my cousin and her husband own. Although I do agree with you, some of them are simply scams.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DianaM
> ...


In many ways it is. Dog's don't recognize guns or knives like people do, and see no threat in these objects. A dog can't conceptionalize the difference between a gun and the TV remote, it's all the same to him.

What they do typically do, and this is both training and instinct, is go for the leading arm (the one most out in front of the person). Which if the bad guy does have a weapon, is usually going to be the weapon arm. But the dog isn't specifically targeting the weapon.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Emoorehelp me see what there is to want in a trained protection dog?
> ...


That would be cool, but any dog can do this. My shelter adopted cutie-pie, 45lbs, therapy dog, spaniel-retriever mix, more than on one occassion was able to detect the presence of suspicious characters and either barked or growled at them and they did a 180 and left. Otherwise, he just loved everyone.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Our TD (who trained state police dogs, so not PPDs but probably similar and quite different than SchH) showed us how they trained the weapon thing. The dog does not go for the weapon itself, but when the person raises their arm or swings the weapon, the dog goes for the arm pit b/c it's a weak spot. The dog is taught to _avoid_ the actual weapon.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildSometimes. Depends on the training. Better be a super fast dog if he's going to get there before the bullet gets him. And if he does grab the gun wielding arm while bad guy's finger is on the trigger, you and anyone else within 100 yards better duck and hope you aren't hit with stray bullets.
> 
> Even K9 officers will tell you that 99.9% of the dog's value is "fear factor". Bad guys give up because they're afraid of the dog. If the dog is deployed, and the bad guy has a weapon, it's pretty much a guaranteed injured or dead dog. Facing a bad guy with a gun, the most any K9 handler I've ever known or trained with hoped for was for his dog to buy him enough time to draw his own weapon. Because dog vs human with gun, or knife, or baseball bat, is going to go very, very badly for the dog.


I really do know all of this. I was being a little bit of a smart a$$ earlier in response to Emoore. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris WildHeck, my dogs are protection trained. Not just sport, but some PPD cross training as well. Under those circumstances, if the bad guy keeps coming, the most valuable command I have for the dog is a rock solid DOWN, to keep 'em out of my way so I get a clear shot at the SOB and don't accidentally hit my own dog.










It's just funny that you said that. I love meeting other gun fanciers. I swear I meet too many women who have never shot a gun and would be scared to own one. They just need some education and training that's all.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeOur TD (who trained state police dogs, so not PPDs but probably similar and quite different than SchH) showed us how they trained the weapon thing. The dog does not go for the weapon itself, but when the person raises their arm or swings the weapon, the dog goes for the arm pit b/c it's a weak spot. The dog is taught to _avoid_ the actual weapon.


Right.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

Funny how my "working lines vs. show lines" thread has turned into a debate about PPDs.

Anyone who is actually interested in a PPD, PM me and I can recommend a good website. You will find my cousin and her husband's (veterinarian for over 30 years) personal testimony.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: HBHSecond, imagine this scenario: first you must change your sex - you are now a woman


Actually, I am a woman.







That's my husband in the pic. When I walk my dogs I have my .40cal with me. So it still stands that the dogs act as the visual deterrent/alert and then mom backs up the threat.

I can definately see how you'd admire their skills and want one, though.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildWhat they do typically do, and this is both training and instinct, is go for the leading arm (the one most out in front of the person).


Now that's interesting stuff. I'm an amateur boxer and in any conflict my lead arm is going to be my left, because in boxing-- as well as man other fighting disciplines-- your power hand is the side away from your opponent. But my gun would be in the right. 

Maybe it's different if you're carrying? I've never tried to box with a gun in my hand before. It's against USA Boxing rules.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

lol^
I do martial arts. Jiu-Jitsu mostly. How cool to find other women who do boxing/carry guns! I have an accute fear of guns, so to overcome that I am planning on doing some training in the future.

I can see why someone would want a PPD, because they seem cool, but honestly any dog that you have a strong bond with (even ones you wouldn't expect), may try to come to your aid. The problem is that even the ones that ARE trained may NOT come to your aid. There's no gauruntee, and I would freak if my dog dashed in front of someone with a gun. I've actually went over it in my head before, how to best get my dog out of that situation with me as quickly as possible. 
Luckily my dog is a chihuahua so I could stuff him in my purse 
Unluckily, he is more likely to run straight at the offender with all the confidence of a Doberman so... 

ETA: I'm glad you've figured out what line of GSD you want, though! Your thread kind of went off on a tangent, lol.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: HBHFunny how my "working lines vs. show lines" thread has turned into a debate about PPDs.


I know what you mean. It's almost like everyone wants you to have THEIR opinion, and that's not right. Everyone's different thus everyone's needs, desires, etc. are different, too. Regardless of WHY you want a PPD, everyone should respect your wishes, and you should NOT have to defend your position, especially in writing, on the internet, because although people know what they're trying to say, writing often does not come out like we think it should, especially on a controversial topic as this.

What really scares me is how so many people defer to brandishing their firearms, yet a PPD is such a libability!









Here's a true story that happened to me, so hopefully no more hypothetical situations need be offerred up, and you can continue to research with confidence what you believe is right for you:

Myself and my g/f, at the time, were driving home one night. I noticed the same headlights in my rear-view mirror for a good part of the drive home, even after I went out of my way to take a route home that included many turns instead of a direct route to see if the car would follow. Sure enough, it did.

I started to wonder if it might be a friend, but I was doubtful as it was near 2am. I was sure it was just a coincidence and the that the car just happened to be going in the same direction. But, by the time we got near home, we started to wonder if this car was purposely following us, and my g/f and I had already discussed the possibilities and the best course of action if it became a situation for concern.

Now, if you've ever been in a situation like this, your plan, even if you previously had one, goes right out the window, and you start thinking in very different ways. In fact, you kind of stop thinking, and do things AUTONOMICALLY.

When we pulled into the driveway, the car behind us pulled up into the driveway, as well. I figured it HAD to be a friend, then, but I told my g/f to stay in the car, just in case. I got out of the car and finally got a clear view past the glare of the headlights behind me and saw a pickup truck I did not recognize.

I called out to the driver, asking if I could help him, and all he said was, "You know Charlie, don't you?" I told him that I didn't know a Charlie and that he must have us confused with somebody else. He said, "No, I know you, and you know Charlie." I repeated that he must be mistaken, and he kept up this senseless banter about "Charlie". At some point I asked him to leave and he refused. By then, I knew something was very wrong, and I reached back into my car and re-iterating to my g/f to stay in the car, pulled out from under my seat a Remington 3000 Riot Gun, and leveled it at this weirdo.

I walked to the side of his car, and demanded that he leave, and he just scoffed, and said, "What are you going to do, shoot me?"

He laughed, leaned forward, then he reached under his seat for something. I shouted, "Don't move!" At that moment a million thoughts seemd to race through my brain. I wondered at what point I would have to shoot this guy in the face, because he was still in the truck and it was my only shot. I knew this riot gun was going to spray a 12 guage round at close range and he would indeed die. It was then that I also realized that I did not want to kill someone, let alone shoot someone. How long would I have between the time he produced his own weapon before I would have no choice but to shoot to guarantee my and my g/f's safety?

At that moment, my g/f got out of the car, and runs toward the house saying, "I'm going to get help!" Great, now, I was really afraid of what might happen. Was he going to shoot her? But, he didn't move. In fact, he never even pulled out whatever he was reaching for, and kept goading me, "C'mon, whatch gonna do, huh...huh?" It was then that I knew this guy wasn't all there, which made my predicament even worse. I mean, here he was with a shotgun leveled pretty much in his face and he's challenging me! Also knew deep down inside that because of his state of mind, I didn't know if I would be able to shoot him even if I had to.

By this time, my g/f's been in the house, and opens the door again, and to make matters worse, or so I thought, without a word she lets out not one, but two, of my PP trained GSDs. And, here, I thought she went in to call 911! Now, instead of just me, I have to worry about both dogs and her standing in the doorway of the house, as well!

I could easily see that these dogs seemed to know this was the real deal. Both dogs came tearing up to the truck, barking up a storm, saliva flying everywhere. I see the guy sit up and lean back, and I'm thinking he's now going to start shooting. I'm thinking, what am I gonna do? Let him shoot one of the dogs? Somehow, I was still thinking rationally. I knew there would be big trouble for me if he went to shoot one of my dogs and I killed him. That would not be self-defense. I'm also thinking about how it would wake up the neighbors!

Somehow, I don't know how, I quickly commanded the dogs to sit and watch, which they immediately did. I don't know if it was just happenstance or not, but when they sat, they were spread out about 10 feet apart, 20 feet from the driver's door, which would make it that much harder for him to take out all three of us.

With what I can only describe as an evil snicker, the guy then says, "What're they going to do bite me?" 

I said, "Get out of the truck and let's see." The guy looks back and forth between the two dogs and for what seemed like eternity, it was deathly silent, but at that point his whole demeanor changed. He calmly said, "Yeah, you know Charlie." With that, he backed out of the driveway and drove slowly away.

Morals of the story address several of the posts in this thread:

1) You think you're "all that" 'cause you have a big, bad gun, but when push comes to shove, you're not, if you're any kind of decent human being.

2) Yes, I found myself in a situation where I was concerned for my dogs' safety, and found myself having to protect them, when I always thought they would protect me.

3) While the dogs appeared to act purely on instinct when they initially went to ward off this maniac, would they have been that aggressive if they hadn't been trained? And, surely, they would not have instantly obeyed my command to sit and watch under those circumstances if they hadn't been trained to listen while in hyper-focus mode.

4) Is a gun better than a trained PPD? In this case, no, it wasn't. Like I said before there are too many serious consequences with using a gun, and you can hypothesize all you want, but until you've been put to the test, you will never know.

5) The maniac who followed me home seemed more concerned for his own safety once the dogs got into the picture, that's for sure. He was more afraid of the dogs than we was of the 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun pointed literally at his face! You tell me, can a PPD help save your life if the perp has a weapon? 

6) Is a PPD right for you? All I can say is that incident wasn't over for my g/f and me. In fact, it never was, for the rest of the time we lived in that house, as we knew all too well that that guy knew where we lived. For the entire rest of the time we lived there, we were grateful to have my 2 PP trained GSDs and my PP trained Doberman with us, so even when not on "guard" those PPDs sure helped us feel safer.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Personally, when someone is discussing debating what sort of GSD to get, etc.... and mentions a desire for a PPD, that is VERY relevant to the discussion. Because the desire for a PPD, or a dog that can later be trained to be a PPD, impacts the sort of GSD that would be appropriate. It's also important to understand what exactly the person means by PPD, since many people have very different ideas of that, and the idea of what constitutes a PPD in the minds of many people unfamiliar with them is typically very different than reality.

So why it is considered unusual that the desire for a PPD would affect the discussion of what sort of GSD is best suited for the OP sort of eludes me. Because to me the goals of the owner directly impacts the sort of dog that is suitable. And along with that, it is also important to make sure that person understands what a PPD truly is and the responsibility of such. Because the truth is there are far more poorly trained PPDs out there than good ones. And far too many people who want PPDs because they think it's cool, without really understanding the reality of owning one. The same reasoning would apply to someone wanting a dog for agility, SchH or anything else... first make sure the person knows what they're talking about and if they are basing their desires on actual experience and fact or not, and then determine exactly what that person means when they say "I want a dog for X."



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> What really scares me is how so many people defer to brandishing their firearms, yet a PPD is such a libability!


As someone with significant experience with both, my opinion is that in such a situation I would prefer the decision on how to deal with it lie with ME and me alone and not leave that decision up to an animal who may not correctly read the situation, interpret the going's on, and may make the wrong choice. A gun doesn't have a mind of it's own and can't make mistakes. A dog can.

Furthermore, legally, someone using a gun to defend themselves is typically going to have an easier time than someone using a dog, due to the extreme amount of case law already on the books for that. Not to mention, if my gun is confiscated and sits in county lock-up for a few months while everything gets sorted out in the courts, or is damaged or destroyed in the process, I can easily buy another to replace it. Not so with the family dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot1) You think you're "all that" 'cause you have a big, bad gun. . .










No, I don't.








But if push comes to shove and someone has broken into my house with intent to harm or is trying to rape or kill me and mine, they're one dead indidvidual.

And the 1st thing they teach in any 4-hour college girls' self-defense class is that if you think someone might be following you, you don't go home.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot1) You think you're "all that" 'cause you have a big, bad gun. . .


A responsible gun owner doesn't.

Besides, the same can be said for a PPD owner. Heck, I'd say I've found that attitude MUCH more prevalent amongst the owners and trainers of protection dogs that I've ever encountered amongst gun owners.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Then, why is it that more than a few posts on this forum seem to contain text that allude, "I'd get my gun". Additionally, several of these posts come off as brags. You must admit that how quickly the mention of a gun is kind of "trigger-happy", compared to how many people wield the "I have a protection dog" card. Makes you wonder.









And, I beg to differ on the point of it being eaiser to defend oneself legally with the use of a gun over a dog. I mean, c'mon, do you really believe that if someone were accused of shooting someone that they would have an easier time legally than if a report was filed claiming that that same person's dog bit someone?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Emoore...if you think someone might be following you, you don't go home.


EXACTLY what I was thinking. I don't care if I had a whole truck full of guns AND PPD dogs. I would have driven to the nearest police station. (OK well maybe not in my current situation since that is 40 miles away, but I would NOT go home, nor would I stop anywhere else where a confrontation is possible.) Or in these days and times, I could have called 911 on my cell phone once I KNEW that I was in fact being followed.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootThen, why is it that more than a few posts on this forum seem to contain text that allude, "I'd get my gun". Additionally, several of these posts come off as brags. You must admit that how quickly the mention of a gun is kind of "trigger-happy", compared to how many people wield the "I have a protection dog" card. Makes you wonder.


Not trigger happy at all. If someone is seriously concerned enough for their safety that they feel a PPD is warranted, getting a gun and learning how to use it is perfectly logical.

If someone just wants a PPD because it's cool, well, I'd say the person needs neither a gun nor a PPD because chances are they will have the same cavalier attitude toward both.



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> And, I beg to differ on the point of it being eaiser to defend oneself legally with the use of a gun over a dog. I mean, c'mon, do you really believe that if someone were accused of shooting someone that they would have an easier time legally than if a report filed that same person's dog bit someone?


Yes. Because if the situation legitimately warranted the use of deadly force, chances are the person will be fine legally. Heck, they wouldn't even have to pay for their lawyer. NRA would jump all over it and be glad to help.

If the situation wasn't that serious, neither dog nor gun should be deployed. 

We're not talking about someone's dog just biting someone. Which already can land the owner in jail and cause them to lose all they own in a lawsuit. Now add on that it's not just Fluffy the pet biting someone, it's a dog intentionally trained for this and whose owner instructed the dog to do so. Much greater legal responsibility there, and not nearly as black/white in the legal system as using a gun for self defense. A dog being intentionally deployed against a human is still likely to be considered deadly force in most cases, but much more muddy legally.

Now, if we're just talking using the dog as a scare tactic, then yes brandishing a dog is better legally than brandishing a gun. But then that doesn't require a PPD. Just a dog with imposing looks, scary reputation, good obedience training and a couple tricks.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootThen, why is it that more than a few posts on this forum seem to contain text that allude, "I'd get my gun".


Because we're talking about defending yours and your family members' lives?




> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootAnd, I beg to differ on the point of it being eaiser to defend oneself legally with the use of a gun over a dog. I mean, c'mon, do you really believe that if someone were accused of shooting someone that they would have an easier time legally than if a report was filed claiming that that same person's dog bit someone?


Maybe it's different in different states, but in Texas "I was in fear for my life" is a credible defense in a court of law if you shoot someone. Also, as Chris said, I'd much rather the police take my Glock and destoy it than my dog.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thing is, at the time, I actually thought it might be someone I knew. I didn't even suspect it was someone following me that meant harm. Of course, the older the wiser, as they say.









FWIW, there were no cell phones back then, either. I guess I should've given more details, as in year, and such, but I probably already exceeded the message post limit.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

See, that's the problem with posting on such a controversial subject. Writings are SO easily miscommunicated and misunderstood. I mean, look, people are telling me what they would've done, and the reality is that I only wrote the things that happened, not why I did what I did. Besudes, it's much different when you're in the midst of something than to read it as a third-party

Likewise, to me, it initially SOUNDED like your writings were making it black and white.

Truth is, the authorities won't always know it's self-defense, will they? Take for example one of the OP's scenarios walking down the street.

First thing they see upon arriving on the scene is that which a firearm was used on someone. What do you think happens then? Way different perpective is taken, than a dog bite, even if it was a trained GSD.

Darned right she'd be at the police station, maybe even arrested, at least detained for a considerable amount of time, even if the guy wasn't killed and was only wounded. Now, she's faced with the task of proving justifiability, and undoubtedly has to go through the legal process, I don't care what state she's in. And, that's going to be very stressful, because she faces possbile criminal prosecution, even if she is innocent, and the stress of that is huge.

On the other hand, the police arrive on the scene, and see the guy crying foul with obvious dog bites. Chances are good she's still going home that night, and chances are also good that the only legal battle she faces, if any, is a civil one, not a criminal one.

Either way you slice it, I'm sure most of us would rather not have to fight a criminal prosecution, wich risks imprisonment and a permanent mark on your record for the rest of your life, let alone knowing that you actually shot someone, and the remorse that would undoubtedly course through you for awhile, just like those thoughts ran through my mind that night. So long ago, yet still fresh in my mind like it was yesterday. I can only imagine what it would be like, if I actually had to shoot that weirdo. Much different than I would've felt if my dogs had torn him a new one.

Just MY opinion.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: EmooreAlso, as Chris said, I'd much rather the police take my Glock and destoy it than my dog.


You gotta be kidding, right? If you shot someone, there's a good chance that person will die, much more chance of a quick death than with an attack by a GSD, even if trained to attack.

You should be so lucky as to have them ONLY take away your Glock. I bet if it were to really happen, God forbid, in real life, you'd be more worried about your FREEDOM, maybe even your life in a capital punishment state, more than you Glock!

And, remember, the OP already has a gun,[Removed by Admin. Wisc.Tiger] . It's obvious that she's smart enough to consider ALL aspects of this important decision, which is why she's even on here posting questions, so we should treat her as such, not gang up on her. She's had to defend herself on almost every part of her OP, and all she wanted to know is which line of dog would work for her. While it's OK to share info that's applicable that maybe she didn't think about, this get a gun crap is ridiculous.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Removed from previous post.


Personal attacks aren't allowed on the board.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> And, remember, the OP already has a gun, [Removed from previous post}


Actually I already have. . . counting. . . eight. So does that make me eight times a dummy, or eight times less a dummy? 

I've also taken the concealed handgun safety course, which the OP says she has not yet but is planning to, as well as more advanced-level firearm education. I know my state's firearm laws inside and out and I have an emergency fund that would more than cover a trial. Does that make me 800 times a dummy, or 800 times less a dummy? 



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootOn the other hand, the police arrive on the scene, and see the guy crying foul with obvious dog bites. Chances are good she's still going home that night, and chances are also good that the only legal battle she faces, if any, is a civil one, not a criminal one.


And possibly a dead dog. I'd rather go through the trial proceedings than have Rocky or Cash impounded and possibly euthanized.


Edit: Oh wait, I just realized you're in California. I'll cut you some slack in the gun-law department.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

MrLeadFoot, I have to admit I'm confused: you come across as quite anti-gun but in your story you were carrying a shotgun in the car. What gives?


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Emoore
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris WildWhat they do typically do, and this is both training and instinct, is go for the leading arm (the one most out in front of the person).
> ...










Haha! That's called street boxing! Well, I'm a lefty, and I shoot lefty, so my lead arm would definitely be my left. But I don't plan on attacking anyone any time soon.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

If you're a southpaw (lefty), your lead arm would be your right. 

By the way, sorry about your thread getting jacked.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't think he's anti-gun; I think he's just saying it'd be harder to shoot someone than most people think. I don't know. I'm from North Carolina. Everyone I know has a gun, including the most liberal friends I have








Being a young girl, I too understand how scary situations can be when you're, say, walking to your car late at night and there's a group of guys you have to walk straight past. Or a strange man walking behind you. I'd hope in a situation where I felt it was neccessary to use the deadly force of a gun the legal system would be on my side, and not on the side of someone who outweighs me by over a hundred pounds and attacked me. 

As it is I carry pepper spray. I don't like the idea of getting my GSD (when I get one someday) PPD trained. Too much time and too much risk if accidentally bit someone. But I think it's fine if the OP does, as long as she knows the facts about it, which everyone has provided the pros and cons of. 
I also don't think anyone here is saying anything out of the way by saying they would grab their gun if they thought someone was threatening their life, instead of depending on a dog. As I said in an earlier post, your dog MAY protect you, or he/she may NOT. But you know you can shoot your gun. 
I don't know how I'd feel carrying a gun, since as I said, I'm afraid of them. But I know I'd have no remorse pulling the trigger if my family members lives were threatened. But I might if I was alone and had to make that decision to protect myself by killing someone else.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote:Removed from previous post.
> ...


My apologies, everyone. I meant to say:

"...she, like you, is not dumb."

and meant to imply that neither the person I was replying to, as well as the OP, is NOT dumb.

There I go, mistyping the order in which it was mean to be typed!


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootWhat really scares me is how so many people defer to brandishing their firearms, yet a PPD is such a libability!


Exactly! People here are arguing about the liability of having a PPD and saying that if someone breaks into my house while I'm there "their one dead individual."

Guess what? If someone breaks into my house when I'm there, they are either a dead individual or a severely injured individual...BUT I'm also probably leaving my house in handcuffs and going to jail for a short time, or at LEAST going downtown for questioning and will possibly (more than likely in today's sue-happy society) be facing a lawsuit from the injured or dead person's family. 

Fact is, BOTH are liabilities. Even in the great state of Texas where guns are favored for home defense, they are still a liability. 

By the way, great story MrLeadFoot. Thanks for sharing!


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm going to make my last statement, because this argument is just getting ridiculous and out of hand. Here's MY case, it's what I know is RIGHT for MY family:

We will always own guns, with at least one tailored for home protection. My husband is an avid gun hobbyist, he has his CHL, and guns with always be a part of our family life. However, if/when my husband has to leave town and leave his wife and (future) children at home, he will feel much better knowing that in addition to the home defense pistol there is also a GSD which possesses a particular set of protective skills at home with his family. Therefore, when we can afford it, I will seriously consider purchasing a trained PPD -OR- putting our GSD through protection training. 

Is the average GSD instinctively protective? Yes. Is the average GSD a deterent? Yes. But a well-trained PPD possesses skills that the average GSD does not possess without protection training.

So, no more arguing for me. I don't feel silly at all for wanting a PPD one day in the future...even while owning guns.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootMy apologies, everyone. I meant to say:
> 
> "...she, like you, is not dumb."
> 
> ...


Lol. . . . no problem. I get what you were saying now.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: EmooreMrLeadFoot, I have to admit I'm confused: you come across as quite anti-gun but in your story you were carrying a shotgun in the car. What gives?


I am not anti-gun. However, this is a forum for GSDs and I am shocked at how many people say they would not hesitate to pull out a gun every time someone mentions a PPD. (I've seen this in other threads, too.)

Like Chris said about a dog being TAUGHT to be a deterrent without actually being taught to attack, and what with others' experiences, as well as mine, there are many options OTHER than shooting people when we think we're in trobule. And, just look at some of the other scenarios people have put forth on this thread alone about being out and about, and then THINKING they might be a target of some malicious person.

Are the gun-toters going to wave a gun around to ward off someone they THINK MIGHT be a threat? That's preposterous. That would be ASKING for trouble right there. Especially given that in some areas EVERYONE has a gun, as some have mentioned. A trained GSD taking an aggressive posture would be much safer for everyone involved. I am NOT condoning the abuse of such a dog, either, like Chris mentioned he's seen people do, just like I don't condone the waving of a firearm just because I have one. Besides, a dog in a protective stance on a leash would be forgiven much easier than, say, if I raised my weapon and aimed it at someone.

Some people have said that having a PPD should not be viewed as "romantic" or "cool", and in fact, the mere mention of wanting a PPD by the OP drew many negative comments, while at the same time elicited all this talk from people SEEMINGLY more than willing to bring up their guns. What an oxymoron.

I'm just trying to put things in their proper perspective here. And, my I poo-poo-ing some posts about some "gun" posts got people irked. And just like those that took offense to my posts, that's exactly what happened to the OP, when she merely wanted to hear which line of dog other people think is better for her purpose. She did NOT ask people's opinion about whether or not she SHOULD have a PPD. Poor thing.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: HBHI'm going to make my last statement, because this argument is just getting ridiculous and out of hand. Here's MY case, it's what I know is RIGHT for MY family:
> 
> We will always own guns, with at least one tailored for home protection. My husband is an avid gun hobbyist, he has his CHL, and guns with always be a part of our family life. However, if/when my husband has to leave town and leave his wife and (future) children at home, he will feel much better knowing that in addition to the home defense pistol there is also a GSD which possesses a particular set of protective skills at home with his family. Therefore, when we can afford it, I will seriously consider purchasing a trained PPD -OR- putting our GSD through protection training.
> 
> ...


So, with all the useful info on this thread about which type of dog to get, I'm sure you now have a better idea for your needs, right?









Seriously, though, while Chris brings up some good things to consider, you also might want to consider things like WHERE you want that protection, too, so you can start talking to trainers while you're at it. I mean, protecting your home is different than being under command from you. I mean, when protecting your property, a dog needs to think for himself, whereas when out with you, he needs to know to defer decisions to you, as some have said. While I'm not saying a dog to protect your home should have a junkyard do mentality, these two types of protection are two distinctly different things, and a good trainer should take that into account. But, he/she may not think to do so, unless you mention your specific needs. Does that make sense?

Hey, that might be an idea for you. Instead of talking to only breeders, start talking to protection trainers, they may have some good suggestions in lines of dogs appropriate for your needs and wants. (In case you haven't thought of that.)

Cheers


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

Good point, LeadFoot. I think I would like to talk to protection trainers...simply because I am interested in their line of work and also because *good ones* will have good insight into the breed, lines, and what might work for us. 

If/when I get a trained PPD, I am pretty sure I know where I will get one from. My cousin and her husband (who has been a veterinarian for over 30 years and was recently appointed by the Governor of Texas to the Texas State Board of Veterinarian Medical Examiners -- he is now the vice president of this board) purchased a PP GSD and I would likely purchase from the same place. They love their PP GSD and have done nothing but praise him and his work since they got him. So they would be helping me out with all the decisions surrounding such a purchase.

Anyway, thanks for offering your thoughts on this subject. I think we were a little outnumbered so it was nice to have someone more on my side of the fence. =)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I'm a little confused b/c it seemed in the original post you were wondering about working lines vs. German lines, but if you are set on a pre-trained PPD from a certain breeder I would bet money it's a working line dog. If you do the training yourself you'll probably want a working line dog. Not that the show lines couldn't do the job but a working line is a safer bet. If you already know where the dog will be from, they should match you to the dog so you won't have to choose anyway.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I have always heard it is easier to turn a gun on the owner than the dog, therefor the dog is a safer bet, good thing I am in Canada. I wonder if all Americans are so pro gun violence or if it goes hand in hand with German Shepherds and PPD, or attack training. I am sure you live in a vastly more unsafe country and all the times I have travelled there safely must be because I am obviously Canadian.

So everyone may attack me but I find some of the comments kinda scary


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Canadians are not welcome in the USA. That's why we ALL carry guns.



Just kidding.











> Originally Posted By: trudyI wonder if all Americans are so pro gun violence or if it goes hand in hand with German Shepherds and PPD, or attack training.


Now, see, that's what I was getting at. The entire thread started sounding like that, didn't it? And, although I am American and have owned guns, I was shocked myself.

But, we better get off the subject of guns on this thread before someone gets REALLY mad.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

glad to see someone else recognizes humor and sarcasm, I just wanted to point it out.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

So, I take it you come in peace?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

of course, you?


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI guess I'm a little confused b/c it seemed in the original post you were wondering about working lines vs. German lines, but if you are set on a pre-trained PPD from a certain breeder I would bet money it's a working line dog. If you do the training yourself you'll probably want a working line dog. Not that the show lines couldn't do the job but a working line is a safer bet. If you already know where the dog will be from, they should match you to the dog so you won't have to choose anyway.


My talk of getting a PP GSD is regarding something in the not-so-near future. We are trying to get our first GSD this summer/fall...it won't be a PPD. Later on, years down the road, we will look into a PPD. So questions that I am currently asking about lines, breeders, etc. are in reference to the GSD we hope to get in the very near future.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: trudyof course, you?


You mean you couldn't tell from my posts?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Wow, I sure hope I didn't come across as being "pro-gun violence" 'cause I'm sure not, any more than being a boxer makes me "pro-assault and battery." I've carried for years and never drawn the thing, and I hope it stays in its holster and on my nightstand and is only fired on the range. However, it seems like every time you open the paper you hear about another home break-in where people were killed or injured, another abduction, another murder, another rape. I WILL NOT be a victim. 

As I mentioned before, I've had classes in gun law and safety as well as various martial arts. The most important thing I've learned is situational awareness and using my mind to stay or get out of situations I may be unsafe. I have two loud barking GSDs and a home alarm. I'm always aware of my surroundings and don't take supid risks. The gun is an absolute last-ditch line of defense when my safety or the safety of my family is on the line, but if it's down to me being raped or killed or the murderer/rapist being killed, it won't be me.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:Are the gun-toters going to wave a gun around to ward off someone they THINK MIGHT be a threat?


In my experience, yes, there are many who will do so & feel completely justified in it as well. I've had a gun pulled on me several times while doing nothing & in every case the person felt justified b/c they were 'nervous'. Guns don't scare me. Irresponsible idiots owning guns scares me. Unfortunately, the country has a surfeit of idiots & weapons.

Sadly the numbnuts prone to pointing a gun(even firing it) at shadows & random noises are exactly the sort to keep vicious, unstable curs for 'protection'. I am in no way criticizing responsible gun & PPD owners. I am HUGELY disgusted with the nervous nellies who bleat about their 'rights' (which I recognize & support) while shirking all responsibility. 

When they mess up & threaten, hurt, even kill people without reasonable cause (nervous doesn't cut it) they should be (IMO) jailed, not sued.


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