# 8 month old snapped at my child



## Lialla

I'm so angry with Grom right now. My kids usually behave crazy with him like the ordinary 8 and 9 year olds would (of course I teach my kids to respect the pup and mind the boundaries) and Grom was very good with them, he just walked away when kids were too much. They play tug with him. Would pet him and hang around him, while he was chewing his bully stick, and he was just fine with it. 

He didn't have any bully sticks for some time and to be honest I didn't exercise him enough this week, so he was bored. I brought him a bully stick tonight and he was very eager to have it. He laid down on my command and I let him have it, and when I reached to pet him, he growled. It was an agressive growl with his lip curled, that was the first time he growled like that. He then growled at my kids and when my son came closer, he lunged with a growl at him. I managed to grab him, I don't know if it could be a bite, if I hadn't. Yelled at him and put him in his crate. 

I practice NILIF with him, took him to puppy classes and did basic obidience, which we stopped doing lately and started with Schutzhund. He is our very first dog and right now I feel like I cannot trust him anymore.

Sorry, this is long, but I need your input on what to do now. I'll put Sch training on hold for now and will work on obidience with a trainer and involve my kids into that too. Right now I don't feel safe when he is around kids, I don't know what to expect from him and what else can provoke him to behave like that.


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## codmaster

Sounds like he was possesive of his bully stick. Has he ever shown any resentment before when you take stuff away from him? Usually one would see this type of behavior slowly build up and not just show up all of a sudden.

I would definetly get some pro help with this one. Could be just a pup feeling his teenage oats or something more deep seated perhaps.


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## GregK

Some of the sweetest dogs that never show aggression do so when they have what they consider to be a very valuable resource.

Plus at 8 months he's starting to test his boundaries.

I know some people will say take the bully stick away and don't let him have them any more.

I say get 2 more - same size, same kind and practice doing exchanges with him. No pressure, no yelling...make it pleasant experience.

I'd get it to a point where he'd retrieve them for me - come right into a perfect 'front'. I'd reach down and grab both ends; say 'give'. Take it out of his mouth. Look at it. Present it to him while saying 'take it'. Let him take it back and release him.


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## BowWowMeow

It's resource guarding. Not that big of a deal (easy to fix) and certainly not something you should be mad at him about. He's a dog and a bully stick is a big deal. You yourself said he didn't get enough exercise this week. 

Until you can work on this issue I would let him have high value things in his crate where he feels safe and you don't have to worry about him growling or lunging. In fact, with kids around, until he gets older and more secure and you get more training in him, I would let him have some peace with his chew or whatever.


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## Lialla

This is the first time he behaved like that. Never saw any agression until today. 



> I know some people will say take the bully stick away and don't let him have them any more.
> 
> I say get 2 more - same size, same kind and practice doing exchanges with him. No pressure, no yelling...make it pleasant experience.


I don't know whether what I did after he first growled at me was right or aggrivated him more. He was in his crated, and I didn't want just let him be after growling or just take the stick away. I got him out of his crate into middle and made him work for it, he growled at first, but then obeyed. Had my daughter did the same, but my son was hesitant, distracted with a video game, so I just sat near Grom petting him while he was chewing the stick, my daughter was nearby, and then my son approached. That's when Grom growled and snapped at him.

I got an order from BestBullySticks coming in tomorrow, will have more material to practice with


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## Lialla

BowWowMeow said:


> It's resource guarding. Not that big of a deal (easy to fix) and certainly not something you should be mad at him about. He's a dog and a bully stick is a big deal. You yourself said he didn't get enough exercise this week.
> 
> Until you can work on this issue I would let him have high value things in his crate where he feels safe and you don't have to worry about him growling or lunging. In fact, with kids around, until he gets older and more secure and you get more training in him, I would let him have some peace with his chew or whatever.



I got mad because he lunged at my child. He was in his crate when he first growled at me, and when kids approached he growled at them too. This is not an acceptible behavior of a dog for me. He is not tormented when he is eating or chewing a bone, just an occasional pat.


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## GSD07

Lialla said:


> I got him out of his crate into middle and made him work for it, he growled at first, but then obeyed. Had my daughter did the same, but my son was hesitant, distracted with a video game, so I just sat near Grom petting him while he was chewing the stick, my daughter was nearby, and then my son approached. That's when Grom growled and snapped at him.


 You took the stick away (better to do the exchange like it was suggested earlier), then forced him to do obedience, no bully stick for that, then your daughter came and he had to do obedience and finally got the stick. Then your son approached and, naturally, your dog thought that the stick will be taken away and he would be forced to do obedience for your son, and so he growled. As always, not the dog's fault but the handler's. 

I would give him his sticks in the crate so he can enjoy them in peace. Then teach him that your presence near his valuable sticks is even better because he gets something better in addition. Then practice exchange. Also don't entertain the idea that your dog will look up to your kids and obey them, not gonna happen.


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## codmaster

Exercise or lack of it had nothing to do with the way your dog reacted.he reacted when you went to take a hi value thing from him that he wanted. Can't let him get away with that - no matter how you address it, I feel that you must address it now and teach your dog that he cannot under any circumstances get away with growling and esp never with snapping at any memebr of the family for simply reaching out to take something away from him.

there are many ways to address this - depending on ones philosophy of dog training (and also how brave you are and your relationship with your dog.

For example i once had a 9mo male imported GSD puppy who basically did the same thing to me one day as he was lying on the floor chewing a real bone that I had given to him. Now this was a hard very confident dog (star of his ScH class at the club at 8mo) and he let out a ferocious growl when i reached down to take the bone as we were going out then. Without even thinking, I reached down grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, gave a big shake and yelled "NO" at him. That was the end of it - never even ever peeped again no matter what I took out of his mouth.

BUT - I was young and sort of stupid then and never even considered what could have resulted. So I would never suggest that any regular owner try that unless your dog is securely muzzled!

But if you don't address the threat and growl, then i feel that you are inadvertently teaching your dog that all he has to do is growl and threaten to get you to back down when he doesn't want to do something.

Get help!


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## cliffson1

Why didn't you allow him to have his bully stick in peace?????? I agree that I will not tolerate growling at me, but Sheesh, if you are going to give the dog something to eat....let him have space and time to eat it without people in his face.


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## Lialla

He was having it at peace in his crate, all started when I reached to pet him lightly and he growled at me with his teeth showing. I don't think it's acceptable for a dog to growl and snap at family members at such or any circumstances. 

*codmaster*, thanks for your input! I don't want to just leave it be, but I don't have enough experience to deal with so I'll be contacting a trainer to help us with to prevent it from ever hapenning again.

*GSD07*, I didn't take the stick away, I asked him to drop it, he growled but dropped it when I repeated the command. I took it and asked him to sit and gave the stick back when he obeyed.


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## cliffson1

I'm sorry I misunderstood your original post to say that you commanded him to lay down and you handed him the stick. I was not aware he was in the crate at the time. 
I have grandchildren over every week and they play with my dogs, but I strongly instill in them that when the dog is eating to leave THEM alone. This is because it is such a strong natural trait for dogs to defend possessions that they have acquired to eat that comes from their pack orientation and survival. Sure there are dogs that will allow you to take their food, and I agree with you that a dog should never growl at a family member. But I never bother my dogs once I give them something to eat, and if they have something I don't want them to have I give the command leave it or drop it first so there is clear communication between me and the dog about what they can have and what they can't. 
Once again sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote initially.


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## wyominggrandma

Exact reason why my dogs learn from day one at my home to allow ANYTHING to be taken from them at anytime by anyone. 
I do that because A. I am the boss, not them. Therefore I can and will take things away, without playing silly exchange games or whatever, IF I want what they are eating, I can and will take it out of their mouths.
B. For the one time my dog gets something in its mouth that is bad for them or could potentially kill them(never has happened to me, but from working at the vets, have seen time and time again dogs get rat poison put down, owner tries to get it back, dog has never been taught to have things taken away, dog growls and gulps the offending item)I want to know I can reach over and take what needs to be taken.
I know, I know, big meanie I am because I take things away. 99% of the time I give them back, but it doesn't matter. If I want what they have, I take it, or my kids take it or the person babysitting them take it away. I have never had a dog snap, growl or guard anything they have. I can open their mouth and take anything away, whether it be a fresh bone, dinner, fun toy, or bully stick, it doesn't matter.
Alot will say this is bad, this is mean. Doesn't matter, I have trained all my dogs that way for years and years, all breeds, and don't have resource guarding problems. Starts at the first day they come home, continues until the day they die.
Might not work for some, but it sure works for me. My dogs are a part of our lives, go everywhere they can, enjoy anyone who comes into my home and is friendly in public. They have boundries and know them.


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## Kittilicious

wyominggrandma said:


> Exact reason why my dogs learn from day one at my home to allow ANYTHING to be taken from them at anytime by anyone.
> I do that because A. I am the boss, not them. Therefore I can and will take things away, without playing silly exchange games or whatever, IF I want what they are eating, I can and will take it out of their mouths.
> B. For the one time my dog gets something in its mouth that is bad for them or could potentially kill them(never has happened to me, but from working at the vets, have seen time and time again dogs get rat poison put down, owner tries to get it back, dog has never been taught to have things taken away, dog growls and gulps the offending item)I want to know I can reach over and take what needs to be taken.
> I know, I know, big meanie I am because I take things away. 99% of the time I give them back, but it doesn't matter. If I want what they have, I take it, or my kids take it or the person babysitting them take it away. I have never had a dog snap, growl or guard anything they have. I can open their mouth and take anything away, whether it be a fresh bone, dinner, fun toy, or bully stick, it doesn't matter.
> Alot will say this is bad, this is mean. Doesn't matter, I have trained all my dogs that way for years and years, all breeds, and don't have resource guarding problems. Starts at the first day they come home, continues until the day they die.
> Might not work for some, but it sure works for me. My dogs are a part of our lives, go everywhere they can, enjoy anyone who comes into my home and is friendly in public. They have boundries and know them.


Well said! Thats exactly what I do. 
What I would do in this situation? I'd get the kids and myself together in a circle on the floor... I'd give the dog the stick (or whatever) and we would each take turns giving it to him and taking it away from him - over and over and over again. And then the next time he has one, someone is to go up to him and take it away again and give it back. 
They might want to eat their bone/stick/whatever in peace, but they are in MY place of peace and they will learn that they can have it if they act decent if someone else higher up on the totem pole than them wants it. And that even includes the cats in this house. If the cat wants it, cat gets it (but cat gets it taken away and it's given back to the dog.... the HUMAN takes it from the cat, not the dog.)
And I, too, have NEVER had an incident of guarding of any sort between the dog & a human (dog & dog is another story).


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## Jax08

cliffson1 said:


> .... but I strongly instill in them that when the dog is eating to leave THEM alone. This is because it is such a strong natural trait for dogs to defend possessions that they have acquired to eat that comes from their pack orientation and survival. Sure there are dogs that will allow you to take their food, and I agree with you that a dog should never growl at a family member. But I never bother my dogs once I give them something to eat, and if they have something I don't want them to have I give the command leave it or drop it first so there is clear communication between me and the dog about what they can have and what they can't.


This is exactly what I've always done and I've never had a problem. I lock them in a crate if I think another dog is going to bother them while they have a treat, and would do the same if there were small children that might inadvertently bother them. Jax will often take her bully stick into the bedroom where she won't be bothered.


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## cliffson1

That's why there is vanilla and chocolate....there is no right or wrong in this issue. Only how people want their individual dogs to be. I don't think you are a meanie, just that's the way you raise your dogs. Works for you and I think that is good. My dogs never ever growl at me either, but for others outside of my wife and I who live with the dogs, I don't hold my dogs to the same boundaries. Vanilla and chocolate.


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## GSD07

Lialla, I read your original post again. I think putting SchH on hold is counterproductive. Do talk with your TD about this incident and I'm sure you'll get advice and the training will be adjusted. I looked at your early posts and seems like you have a nice pup, and you yourself mentioned that he was the 'bossiest' of the litter. I also would post this in the SchH section and ask advice how to raise a working dog. Cliff gives you excellent advice, and I would listen to what he has to say.


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## Wolfiesmom

codmaster said:


> Exercise or lack of it had nothing to do with the way your dog reacted.he reacted when you went to take a hi value thing from him that he wanted. Can't let him get away with that - no matter how you address it, I feel that you must address it now and teach your dog that he cannot under any circumstances get away with growling and esp never with snapping at any memebr of the family for simply reaching out to take something away from him.
> 
> there are many ways to address this - depending on ones philosophy of dog training (and also how brave you are and your relationship with your dog.
> 
> For example i once had a 9mo male imported GSD puppy who basically did the same thing to me one day as he was lying on the floor chewing a real bone that I had given to him. Now this was a hard very confident dog (star of his ScH class at the club at 8mo) and he let out a ferocious growl when i reached down to take the bone as we were going out then. Without even thinking, I reached down grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, gave a big shake and yelled "NO" at him. That was the end of it - never even ever peeped again no matter what I took out of his mouth.
> 
> BUT - I was young and sort of stupid then and never even considered what could have resulted. So I would never suggest that any regular owner try that unless your dog is securely muzzled!
> 
> But if you don't address the threat and growl, then i feel that you are inadvertently teaching your dog that all he has to do is growl and threaten to get you to back down when he doesn't want to do something.
> 
> Get help!


I did this same thing with Chief when he growled at me for taking his food. Same reason here, young and sort of stupid. It worked for me as well. He never growled again when I took something he had.

With Wolfie, I am older and wiser. I started from the first day we had him, taking things from him. He never complains when anyone touches his food or whatever he has.


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## Jax08

Soo....20 different ways to come to the same result...

When is it appropriate to correct for aggression? And HOW do you correct for aggression?

Didn't I see a thread a couple days ago on the same topic?


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## sashadog

Personally, I would keep your kids out of it until you feel better about his responses. Eventually they should be a part of training but I wouldn't until you feel more comfortable predicting and managing his guarding. 

Talk to your trainer, work with him, set more clear boundaries, THEN bring your children back into the training equation. Just my opinion as I don't think I would want to take that chance with my own kids.


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## GregK

Jax08 said:


> Soo....20 different ways to come to the same result...


 
That's dog training. 




sashadog said:


> Personally, I would keep your kids out of it until you feel better about his responses. Eventually they should be a part of training but I wouldn't until you feel more comfortable predicting and managing his guarding.
> 
> Talk to your trainer, work with him, set more clear boundaries, THEN bring your children back into the training equation. Just my opinion as I don't think I would want to take that chance with my own kids.


Yeah I meant to mention this.

Take your time with this.


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## nitemares

Also plz make sure nothing is medically wrong with your dog. Yesterday my pup growled at me when i told him off the couch. Today I found out that his gums are swollen and there appears to be a bad infected tooth, he's in pain. I still pushed him off the couch when he growled and he's still not allowed on it today even though the reason might have been because he's in pain. So take him to the vet and check for any medical issue.


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## Holmeshx2

Sorry however I do believe in letting the dog have something in peace. Yeah some people say they do it every time the dog has something because they own the house they control it all yadda yadda yadda HOWEVER part of being a good owner/leader isn't being such a dictator. Dogs do have some rights, would you want someone messing with you every flippin time you had something? Anytime you go to eat something having someone come and take it from you, even if they give it back its gonna get old super quick, anytime you eat something having someone over your shoulder rubbing your head or tapping on you? I can take anything from Jinx at anytime or have her drop even the most prized possession anywhere we are even from a distance (a few acres away she grabbed something I couldn't tell what it was so a loud "out" and she spit it out I came over to see what it was) I do the training exercises to let her know there is no reason to guard stuff however its not constant and it never has been because I would go insane having someone mess with me constantly when I have something just leave them in peace (and yes a pet is still bugging them heck even just going and sitting next to them is bugging them) In fairness he growled at your son that was a warning not only did he not stop but he continued to advance so he got lunged at... dog world the growl was the warning YOU should have stopped your son then addressed the dog had that been the course of action you wanted. Kids are little they are very rarely viewed as "pack leaders" can dogs be taught to respect them yes however anything that requires a more dominant action needs to come from the adults not the children. 

I admit I used to do the "this is mine you will give everything and anything up to me when I say so because I rule GRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!" However, was schooled by someone MUCH wiser then me that it's wrong. The dog growled because he was afraid you would take it from him then what happens? You took it from him telling him "hey your fears were right I did take it" so guess what it gives him even MORE reason to fear it next time he has something very valuable. Everyone wants to be the pack leader and force the dogs to give everything up because they are the leader and get whatever they want. However, you're not being a fair leader in an actual pack the alpha takes whatever he wants first eats all he can then passes the rest to the lower members then leaves it alone he doesn't go over and nibble on it 20 minutes later while everyone else is eating he leaves them be! If he was to go over then its gonna cause a fight because the lower ranking member has every right to growl at him because hes not being a good leader. 

Sorry but I just don't fall for the total dominance method and even if they go with it now IMO it's only a matter of time before they have something they REALLY want and decide to push back because they already feel your leadership skills are lacking and decide to challenge for it. Of course you may have a more naturally submissive dog that won't but doesn't mean one day you wont get a harder dog that refuses to back down no matter how much force you use against him. 

As a young pup we did trading games when she had something she shouldn't have so she didn't think anytime she had something I was just going to take it. As she got older she got a super meaty HUGE bone and when I went to pet her she growled I handled it poorly was taught I was wrong and learned from it. For awhile whenever I gave her something she was left alone I didn't stand over her didn't pet her nothing for a few times then I would walk over to her set something yummy on the ground and walked away did some other stuff along this lines now she can have anything no matter how high value and shes not going to freak about someone messing with it or her but I still leave her alone because she deserves that much! Our kids go nuts because they want to mess with her and think its fine because its just a pet and while she will allow it I wont and instantly correct them because she shouldn't have to deal with it. Occasionally after giving her dinner I will walk past her with a gentle pat and a good girl while I walk past her or ask her to move so I can get in the fridge then a simple praise but it's definitely not frequent. Sorry but we brought them into our lives now we want to force them to deal with whatever we want because they should just "have to deal with it"


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## Anastasia

I noticed you were in NJ so I just wanted to say that if you want to consult a behaviorist there is one in South Jersey that came highly recommended to me as a trainer.

Home

I don't know where you are but if you aren't in an area that she covers she may be able to recommend someone who is. I can't offer any other advice but wanted to say I'm sorry that you feel like you can't trust your pup. I'm sure if Jack ever growled or snapped at my kids I would probably feel the same way and that has to be heartbreaking.


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## Stella's Mom

GSD07 said:


> You took the stick away (better to do the exchange like it was suggested earlier), then forced him to do obedience, no bully stick for that, then your daughter came and he had to do obedience and finally got the stick. Then your son approached and, naturally, your dog thought that the stick will be taken away and he would be forced to do obedience for your son, and so he growled. As always, not the dog's fault but the handler's.
> 
> I would give him his sticks in the crate so he can enjoy them in peace. Then teach him that your presence near his valuable sticks is even better because he gets something better in addition. Then practice exchange. Also don't entertain the idea that your dog will look up to your kids and obey them, not gonna happen.


Good point. The dog had to keep earning the same reward over and over intead of letting him enjoy it once earned.


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## Stella's Mom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Sorry however I do believe in letting the dog have something in peace. Yeah some people say they do it every time the dog has something because they own the house they control it all yadda yadda yadda HOWEVER part of being a good owner/leader isn't being such a dictator. Dogs do have some rights, would you want someone messing with you every flippin time you had something? Anytime you go to eat something having someone come and take it from you, even if they give it back its gonna get old super quick, anytime you eat something having someone over your shoulder rubbing your head or tapping on you? I can take anything from Jinx at anytime or have her drop even the most prized possession anywhere we are even from a distance (a few acres away she grabbed something I couldn't tell what it was so a loud "out" and she spit it out I came over to see what it was) I do the training exercises to let her know there is no reason to guard stuff however its not constant and it never has been because I would go insane having someone mess with me constantly when I have something just leave them in peace (and yes a pet is still bugging them heck even just going and sitting next to them is bugging them) In fairness he growled at your son that was a warning not only did he not stop but he continued to advance so he got lunged at... dog world the growl was the warning YOU should have stopped your son then addressed the dog had that been the course of action you wanted. Kids are little they are very rarely viewed as "pack leaders" can dogs be taught to respect them yes however anything that requires a more dominant action needs to come from the adults not the children.
> 
> I admit I used to do the "this is mine you will give everything and anything up to me when I say so because I rule GRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!" However, was schooled by someone MUCH wiser then me that it's wrong. The dog growled because he was afraid you would take it from him then what happens? You took it from him telling him "hey your fears were right I did take it" so guess what it gives him even MORE reason to fear it next time he has something very valuable. Everyone wants to be the pack leader and force the dogs to give everything up because they are the leader and get whatever they want. However, you're not being a fair leader in an actual pack the alpha takes whatever he wants first eats all he can then passes the rest to the lower members then leaves it alone he doesn't go over and nibble on it 20 minutes later while everyone else is eating he leaves them be! If he was to go over then its gonna cause a fight because the lower ranking member has every right to growl at him because hes not being a good leader.
> 
> Sorry but I just don't fall for the total dominance method and even if they go with it now IMO it's only a matter of time before they have something they REALLY want and decide to push back because they already feel your leadership skills are lacking and decide to challenge for it. Of course you may have a more naturally submissive dog that won't but doesn't mean one day you wont get a harder dog that refuses to back down no matter how much force you use against him.
> 
> As a young pup we did trading games when she had something she shouldn't have so she didn't think anytime she had something I was just going to take it. As she got older she got a super meaty HUGE bone and when I went to pet her she growled I handled it poorly was taught I was wrong and learned from it. For awhile whenever I gave her something she was left alone I didn't stand over her didn't pet her nothing for a few times then I would walk over to her set something yummy on the ground and walked away did some other stuff along this lines now she can have anything no matter how high value and shes not going to freak about someone messing with it or her but I still leave her alone because she deserves that much! Our kids go nuts because they want to mess with her and think its fine because its just a pet and while she will allow it I wont and instantly correct them because she shouldn't have to deal with it. Occasionally after giving her dinner I will walk past her with a gentle pat and a good girl while I walk past her or ask her to move so I can get in the fridge then a simple praise but it's definitely not frequent. Sorry but we brought them into our lives now we want to force them to deal with whatever we want because they should just "have to deal with it"


As the wise president of our Shutzhund said, sometimes people can be jerks when they feel they have to lord it over the dogs all the time.

I agree with your philosophy. Earn the treat, 1x. It's yours, go in peace.


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## wyominggrandma

I am not a jerk, nor do I lord it over my dog all the time, not am I a dictator. Thank you very much.
I don't stand there and take away everthing I give my dogs, but they know I can take it away. They don't grab their toys/bones, chewies and take off running from me, looking over their back in total terror to make sure I am not running after them to grab it out of their mouths. They plop down with their goodies and gnaw away.
I don't play "I am the boss and will take your stuff away". I simply have trained all my dogs to accept things being taken away. PERIOD. 
They don't growl, they don't snap, they don't act aggressively if anyone does take something away, they just go about their business. They don't snap at strangers, don't snap at vets, don't have to be hidden away from kids or when someone comes to my home. Don't charge people or other dogs. They are happy healthy dogs with plenty of things to do and places to go. I guess I am bad because I treat my dogs as just that, dogs. I love them, will do anything medically necessary to keep them alive and healthy, but they are not my kids. They don't think like a person, nor get treated like one. When I have to leave them at home, they greet me with happy tongues and tails. Gee, I must be a bad trainer and dog owner.


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## GregK

wyominggrandma said:


> I can and will take things away, without playing silly exchange games or whatever,


Nothing silly about doing exchange training. It's a very effective way to teach a dog not to be a resource guarder.


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## llombardo

He was in his "secure" place eating his favorite thing that he hasn't had for a while....I don't think I have ever fed any of my dogs in the crate to begin with but I can see how he would get "possessive" and lets say excitable. Its not something that you should put up with either. I had a 120 pound black lab that I got when he was about 10 years old. He wasn't used to kids and he definitely wasn't use to people "bothering" him when he had a bone. Within the first week of working with him--giving him the bone, taking the bone, giving him the bone, etc, he was fine BUT I never completely trusted him again after he growled that first time...I just supervised his treat time and watched his reactions when the kids were near him. I'm sure a trainer will help you with the issue and everything will be fine.


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## Cassidy's Mom

wyominggrandma said:


> .....I can and will take things away, without playing silly exchange games or whatever...





wyominggrandma said:


> For the one time my dog gets something in its mouth that is bad for them or could potentially kill them(never has happened to me, but from working at the vets, have seen time and time again dogs get rat poison put down, owner tries to get it back, *dog has never been taught to have things taken away*, dog growls and gulps the offending item)I want to know I can reach over and take what needs to be taken.


That's exactly the purpose of "silly exchange games" training - to teach the dog to willingly give things up so you don't have to worry about them growling, gulping, or bolting.


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## PaddyD

cliffson1 said:


> Why didn't you allow him to have his bully stick in peace?????? I agree that I will not tolerate growling at me, but Sheesh, if you are going to give the dog something to eat....let him have space and time to eat it without people in his face.


What is your method of 'not tolerating growling at you'?
I agree that a dog should have his 'prize' in peace but a dog should also allow owner or any family member to take it away at any time. One assumes that owners and family member don't make a habit of it or tease the dog in this fashion. I believe that this was the situation, the owner and/or family member was taking it away but doesn't make a practice of it.


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## wyominggrandma

GregK said:


> Nothing silly about doing exchange training. It's a very effective way to teach a dog not to be a resource guarder.


 No, there is nothing wrong if you want to use the exchange training. Or you can just teach them from the day they come home that taking things away is okay.
Do you do an exchange with your kids everytime they have something they shouldn't? Here Jimmy, I really want those scissors you are playing with, I will trade you for something better, how about a candy bar?. Oh, you shouldn't be playing with matches, I will trade you for a something better? I guess I must be a dictator, jerk and a lord it over my kids and grandkids also. I never bargained with my kids or grandkids, if they have something they shouldn't I take it away. If its time to go to bed, its put the toys away and go to bed. My grandkids and kids have been brought up to be respectful to adults and others and be accepting of changes in their lives and their day to day life. Guess what, my kids and grandkids love me, even though when Grandma/mom speaks, its time to listen.
My dogs are brought up the same way. When I say something, I expect them to listen and obey me. If that means taking something away, that is what happens, and I don't exchange for something else. Like I said earlier, if my dog has something in his mouth that will kill him, mouse poison, suspicious meat, anything like that, when I take it away, I don't want to be faced with a growling dog challenging me because I don't have something to exchange for. I will take it out of their mouths.


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## wyominggrandma

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That's exactly the purpose of "silly exchange games" training - to teach the dog to willingly give things up so you don't have to worry about them growling, gulping, or bolting.


But I DON"T worry about them growling, gulping or bolting, if I want something out of their mouths, I take it.My dogs don't growl, gulp or bolt, 
I used those examples of dogs brought into the clinic after swallowing poison. The owners never taught their dogs to accept things being taken away.


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## PaddyD

wyominggrandma said:


> No, there is nothing wrong if you want to use the exchange training. Or you can just teach them from the day they come home that taking things away is okay.
> Do you do an exchange with your kids everytime they have something they shouldn't? Here Jimmy, I really want those scissors you are playing with, I will trade you for something better, how about a candy bar?. Oh, you shouldn't be playing with matches, I will trade you for a something better? I guess I must be a dictator, jerk and a lord it over my kids and grandkids also. I never bargained with my kids or grandkids, if they have something they shouldn't I take it away. If its time to go to bed, its put the toys away and go to bed. My grandkids and kids have been brought up to be respectful to adults and others and be accepting of changes in their lives and their day to day life. Guess what, my kids and grandkids love me, even though when Grandma/mom speaks, its time to listen.
> My dogs are brought up the same way. When I say something, I expect them to listen and obey me. If that means taking something away, that is what happens, and I don't exchange for something else. Like I said earlier, if my dog has something in his mouth that will kill him, mouse poison, suspicious meat, anything like that, when I take it away, I don't want to be faced with a growling dog challenging me because I don't have something to exchange for. I will take it out of their mouths.


Kudos and 100% agreement from Massachusetts Grandpa.


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## llombardo

wyominggrandma said:


> No, there is nothing wrong if you want to use the exchange training. Or you can just teach them from the day they come home that taking things away is okay.
> Do you do an exchange with your kids everytime they have something they shouldn't? Here Jimmy, I really want those scissors you are playing with, I will trade you for something better, how about a candy bar?. Oh, you shouldn't be playing with matches, I will trade you for a something better? I guess I must be a dictator, jerk and a lord it over my kids and grandkids also. I never bargained with my kids or grandkids, if they have something they shouldn't I take it away. If its time to go to bed, its put the toys away and go to bed. My grandkids and kids have been brought up to be respectful to adults and others and be accepting of changes in their lives and their day to day life. Guess what, my kids and grandkids love me, even though when Grandma/mom speaks, its time to listen.
> My dogs are brought up the same way. When I say something, I expect them to listen and obey me. If that means taking something away, that is what happens, and I don't exchange for something else. Like I said earlier, if my dog has something in his mouth that will kill him, mouse poison, suspicious meat, anything like that, when I take it away, I don't want to be faced with a growling dog challenging me because I don't have something to exchange for. I will take it out of their mouths.


The key word is training and there is nothing wrong with training or teaching a dog not to growl when a person takes away their toy/bone. And you can't really use kids as an example like you did because I'm sure if you thought about it, you would realize kids are trained too. Early on(like with dogs) parents/grandparents have already instilled that matches are bad, scissors are bad...so if they are playing with either then shame on the parents/grandparents. I am sure that any person that is dealing with lets say a year old child will not yell, scream, or hit a child for picking up scissors or matches for the first time. I would think that as rationally as possible someone would explain why those things are bad...its the same thing for a young dog---they don't know what they did is wrong, because its natural for them, so we as the humans have to make them understand in what I would hope is the same nurturing way as if they were kids. As for a dog having something dangerous in its mouth, the commands drop it and leave it--work very well if the dog was trained when it was younger.


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## Germanshepherdlova

wyominggrandma said:


> But I DON"T worry about them growling, gulping or bolting, if I want something out of their mouths, I take it.My dogs don't growl, gulp or bolt,
> I used those examples of dogs brought into the clinic after swallowing poison. The owners never taught their dogs to accept things being taken away.


I agree-one must be able to take things away from your dogs-and they should be trained not to get nasty about it. This should be one of the first things taught to a puppy.


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## PaddyD

llombardo said:


> The key word is training and there is nothing wrong with training or teaching a dog not to growl when a person takes away their toy/bone. And you can't really use kids as an example like you did because I'm sure if you thought about it, you would realize kids are trained too. Early on(like with dogs) parents/grandparents have already instilled that matches are bad, scissors are bad...so if they are playing with either then shame on the parents/grandparents. I am sure that any person that is dealing with lets say a year old child will not yell, scream, or hit a child for picking up scissors or matches for the first time. I would think that as rationally as possible someone would explain why those things are bad...its the same thing for a young dog---they don't know what they did is wrong, because its natural for them, so we as the humans have to make them understand in what I would hope is the same nurturing way as if they were kids. As for a dog having something dangerous in its mouth, the commands drop it and leave it--work very well if the dog was trained when it was younger.


Good luck explaining to a year old child the dangers of matches or scissors. Also, I don't seee how a bully stick is a dangerous thing in a dog's mouth.

__________________


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## llombardo

PaddyD said:


> Good luck explaining to a year old child the dangers of matches or scissors.
> __________________


*Thats the point exactly, but as parents we keep explaining until they understand..a puppy is no different. And the dangerous thing would be in the previous quote--the dog getting into something its not suppose to (mouse poison, suspicious meat*


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## PaddyD

llombardo said:


> *Thats the point exactly, but as parents we keep explaining until they understand..a puppy is no different. And the dangerous thing would be in the previous quote--the dog getting into something its not suppose to (mouse poison, suspicious meat*


No need to shout. I may be old but I don't yet have need of a hearing aid.


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## llombardo

PaddyD said:


> No need to shout. I may be old but I don't yet have need of a hearing aid.


Not shouting, my computer is acting *up*


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## codmaster

GregK said:


> Nothing silly about doing exchange training. It's a *very effective way* to teach a dog not to be a resource guarder.


 
Just a thought if you use this method, *what do you do* if the dog doesn't think the exchange thing is worth him/her giving up what he already has in his mouth?

Would you then up your offer and throw in something else, say, a nice piece of cheese and 2 milk bones?

And also, if you had a 2yo child would you use the same "Exchange" method of getting something away from them? And then "negotiate" with the 2yo if he/she also doesn't think what you are offering is worth what he/she already has?

Seems like that could get to be a real problem as the dog/child became more used to "Exchange" and "negotiation". With both parties dealing from a position of power!

But to each his/her own method of dealing with your own dog!


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## chelle

I am such a glutton for punishment, I'm gonna step into this issue again. :laugh:

Dear Dog: 

I've tried to raise you to trust me because I like to think I'm fair. You'll have to do _something_ to get *whatever*, and then it is yours until it is not yours anymore or it is gone. I might come up and touch you, play with your ears, kiss you. I might reach down and hold it for you to give you a better grip. I might say OH LOOK and give you somethin' better. Or I might not. It might be time for me to remove it, because it is time for all the dogs to come into the room, and we're not risking an issue. Sure, you'll have a good amount of chew time. No, I won't bug you endlessly while you're happily chewing. I might walk by and pat your cute butt and say GOOD DOG so you get used to being touched while you have something great. BUT, when I need it back -- not because I want to torment - but because I need it back, then I do and I will take it and you won't fuss at me.

Love, Mom.


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## Holmeshx2

codmaster said:


> Just a thought if you use this method, *what do you do* if the dog doesn't think the exchange thing is worth him/her giving up what he already has in his mouth?
> 
> Would you then up your offer and throw in something else, say, a nice piece of cheese and 2 milk bones?
> 
> And also, if you had a 2yo child would you use the same "Exchange" method of getting something away from them? And then "negotiate" with the 2yo if he/she also doesn't think what you are offering is worth what he/she already has?
> 
> Seems like that could get to be a real problem as the dog/child became more used to "Exchange" and "negotiation". With both parties dealing from a position of power!
> 
> But to each his/her own method of dealing with your own dog!


This brings up some FANTASTIC points! I really think all of the methods should be "tricks in the training bag" I believe in well rounded methods because even as wyominggrandma (sorry if I spelled it wrong) pointed out you dont always have something to offer. The key thing is to start out from the time they come home as a young pup. I think constantly taking everything away causes an issue even when its something they can't have because they learn you approaching means ur gonna take it. I think Trading or even just giving something extra is a great thing for them to learn. Some other times taking what they have and giving it right back, teaching the "out" or "drop" command and of course teaching "leave it" are all very important. There is always going to be a time where you just need to take it from them and no there should be no fuss or gulping of the item nor should there be negotiating of a better item however using it in training is a great thing to lay the foundation.

Pup grabs a sock it shouldn't have you give it something it should have and take the sock away. Pup grabs shoe you take shoe give a toy. Later on you grab some treats and teach pup impulse control and "leave it" another time you grab a tug toy play for a few minutes stop remove toy from dogs mouth while saying "out" then "good out give tug back and start playing again. Owner was negligent and dog got something poisonous it shouldn't have had you shove hand down pups throat and take it out and they deal with the fact you didn't trade them for anything that time because it wasn't an appropriate training tactic at that moment. I just don't think that in any training it can be only one way there should always be lots of different methods for well rounded training IMO. I really do not think negotiating is the right term or method. I don't do the trading for higher value however I will trade a non dog item for a dog appropriate item when they are young so they learn I'm not always going to take stuff from them and they learn what they are allowed to have and what they aren't.


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## GregK

I'm talking about training an eight month old German Shepherd here, not a human child. I don't have to worry about a child biting my hand and/or arm, possibly doing some serious and permanent damage.


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## GregK

codmaster said:


> Just a thought if you use this method, *what do you do* if the dog doesn't think the exchange thing is worth him/her giving up what he already has in his mouth?
> 
> Would you then up your offer and throw in something else, say, a nice piece of cheese and 2 milk bones?


This is training - *teaching* a dog to give up items on request. After practicing this the dog becomes *conditioned* to do this without any exchange items necessary.


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## wyominggrandma

I"ve been bit by a few kids.. Hurts like the devil.
I brought kids into it because if you negotiate with a child, they learn to hold out until something better comes along. Just like a dog will do, "hey, I don't like this treat that she is trying to trade this other treat for, so I think I will growl at her until I get something better". Growls and then the person walks off to get something better, however the dog has just decided if it growls the person walks off.
Oh well, guess I will continue to browbeat and dictate how my dogs should live in my home. Must be awful the way I do it, but what the heck, works for me.
Oh yea, Holly is laying on the couch chewing on a bone. I can walk up to her, take the bone away from her and say" get off the couch". She looks at me and gets off the couch go grabs another toy and lays down on the floor. Bad mommy. I took her bone away and didn't give her something else to negotiate with her. I took it.Oh my, she is still wagging her tail at me.


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## GregK

wyominggrandma said:


> I brought kids into it because if you negotiate with a child, they learn to hold out until something better comes along. Just like a dog will do, "hey, I don't like this treat that she is trying to trade this other treat for, so I think I will growl at her until I get something better". Growls and then the person walks off to get something better, however the dog has just decided if it growls the person walks off.
> .


Again,



GregK said:


> This is training - *teaching* a dog to give up items on request. After practicing this the dog becomes *conditioned* to do this without any exchange items necessary.


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## codmaster

GregK said:


> This is training - *teaching* a dog to give up items on request. After practicing this the dog becomes *conditioned* to do this without any exchange items necessary.


 
*So WHAT would you do* when the dog refused to give it up in an exchange? I didn't seem to catch your answer.

Would that mean that you would just stop trying to get the original item or would you up the offer? Which?

That is of course before your dog is "Conditioned" of course!


How about just TEACHING your dog who is boss and can just take something away from him because he/she wants to!

I have done so with all of our dogs over the years and have never had a problem with anyof them.


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## codmaster

wyominggrandma said:


> I"ve been bit by a few kids.. Hurts like the devil.
> I brought kids into it because if you negotiate with a child, they learn to hold out until something better comes along. Just like a dog will do, "hey, I don't like this treat that she is trying to trade this other treat for, so I think I will growl at her until I get something better". Growls and then the person walks off to get something better, however the dog has just decided if it growls the person walks off.
> Oh well, guess I will continue to browbeat and dictate how my dogs should live in my home. Must be awful the way I do it, but what the heck, works for me.
> Oh yea, Holly is laying on the couch chewing on a bone. I can walk up to her, take the bone away from her and say" get off the couch". She looks at me and gets off the couch go grabs another toy and lays down on the floor. Bad mommy. I took her bone away and didn't give her something else to negotiate with her. I took it.Oh my, she is still wagging her tail at me.


*Very well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## GregK

codmaster, I would use a higher value item, be it food or toy, to get the dog to give up the item he already has.

You can't always 'show a dog who's boss' by just taking something he's guarding away. Some dogs are very serious about their resource guarding and won't hesitate to bite when challenged in this manner.


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## msvette2u

GSD07 said:


> You took the stick away (better to do the exchange like it was suggested earlier), then forced him to do obedience, no bully stick for that, then your daughter came and he had to do obedience and finally got the stick. Then your son approached and, naturally, your dog thought that the stick will be taken away and he would be forced to do obedience for your son, and so he growled. As always, not the dog's fault but the handler's.
> 
> I would give him his sticks in the crate so he can enjoy them in peace. Then teach him that your presence near his valuable sticks is even better because he gets something better in addition. Then practice exchange. Also don't entertain the idea that your dog will look up to your kids and obey them, not gonna happen.


Exactly.
Once again people think dogs should think (and reason) like people, instead of dogs. 
Good post and good advice.
Dogs aren't thinking "Oh, good, if I do this right, I'll get my wonderful treat back", they are thinking "oh SH*T here we go again and I'm LOSING my treat". 
Do the high value trading and once he's secure you're not going to take away the good stuff, leave him alone to eat them in peace.


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## GatorDog

GregK said:


> codmaster, I would use a higher value item, be it food or toy, to get the dog to give up the item he already has.
> 
> You can't always 'show a dog who's boss' by just taking something he's guarding away. Some dogs are very serious about their resource guarding and won't hesitate to bite when challenged in this manner.


This sounds to me as if you'd be rewarding the dog for their bad behavior displayed immediately prior?

Outcome being,
Dog grabs object.
You attempt to take object away.
Dog growls.
Dog is given treat, and as a result is forced to drop said object.
Dog learns that taking things that he isn't supposed to is ok, and his owner agrees because they give treats whenever he takes something.


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## msvette2u

GregK said:


> codmaster, I would use a higher value item, be it food or toy, to get the dog to give up the item he already has.
> 
> You can't always 'show a dog who's boss' by just taking something he's guarding away.* Some dogs are very serious about their resource guarding and won't hesitate to bite when challenged in this manner.*


I agree with this - and/or basically only giving the dog these treats when he can be crated and by himself.
Resource guarding starts at birth. Maybe even before. It's hard-wired behavior, not just a bad habit.
I've seen puppies with their eyes closed fighting over a dam's nipple. If they do not fight and get one, they die. That simple. It's that much a part of them.
Some of my dogs can give up a treat if I ask, others can't/won't. I really don't care, and am not going to fiddle with them just so they "know who's boss". If it was a huge deal to me, I'd give them those treats only in their crates, or not give them treats at all. 
They share beds on the floor and all the toys on the floor, and if they guard it, they lose it.


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## msvette2u

GatorDog said:


> This sounds to me as if you'd be rewarding the dog for their bad behavior displayed immediately prior?
> 
> Outcome being,
> Dog grabs object.
> You attempt to take object away.
> Dog growls.
> Dog is given treat, and as a result is forced to drop said object.
> Dog learns that taking things that he isn't supposed to is ok, and his owner agrees because they give treats whenever he takes something.



No. Not at all. 
You start with a low value item, and work up. A milkbone traded for a piece of jerky, etc.

Same principal when you walk by their dish and throw a piece of something tasty in (cooked chicken for instance), so they are happy about you walking by it.

Surprised so many haven't heard of it - 
http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RG.html


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## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Sorry however I do believe in letting the dog have something in peace. Yeah some people say they do it every time the dog has something because they own the house they control it all yadda yadda yadda HOWEVER part of being a good owner/leader isn't being such a dictator. Dogs do have some rights, would you want someone messing with you every flippin time you had something? Anytime you go to eat something having someone come and take it from you, even if they give it back its gonna get old super quick, anytime you eat something having someone over your shoulder rubbing your head or tapping on you?
> 
> Sorry but I just don't fall for the total dominance method and even if they go with it now IMO it's only a matter of time before they have something they REALLY want and decide to push back because they already feel your leadership skills are lacking and decide to challenge for it. Of course you may have a more naturally submissive dog that won't but doesn't mean one day you wont get a harder dog that refuses to back down no matter how much force you use against him.


I can't begin to tell you how much I diagree with this. This is giving them an excuse for bad behavior just like letting a child get away with a temper tantrum. If you train a pup right when they are young take it away and give it back take it away and give it back before their is a growling issue they are going to know they will always get it back this is training not teasing, but if you let them get away with bad behavior once they will constantly push your boundries. You have to be consistant. If you are willing to put a dog in a crate every time he gets a treat well that is your choice but my dogs are part of the family and as such they need to follow family rules. Puppies or kids no tempertantrums allowed.


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## wyominggrandma

By why do I need to throw something yummy in the dish when I walk by it. Or not pat them while they are eating? Or give them something of higher value because they growled at me when I walked by them chewing on a bone?
I guess I am just an old time dog trainer/owner/handler who hasn't read all the good books about rewarding a dog for growling/biting. Of course I am also an old time mom and grandma who expects my kids/grandkids to have respect for others. From a young age, I could take them into a restaurant and they would sit at their chairs and eat and not fuss. Now days you go into a restuarant and the parents are busy chatting away and the kids are running around the restaurant bothering everyone else and I hear" here sweetie, if you quit running around, I will let you have ice cream even though you didn't eat your dinner"..the kid gets ice cream and still runs around. But, kids are not taught manners anymore than dogs are taught manners.
I guess the "new wave"training allows for the dog to decide who walks by them, when they can be touched and heaven forbid if they are eating, chewing on a bone or whatever, because the whole house must tip toe around the dog while it is eating/chewing/etc so it can guard ITS things.
I will still do it the old way, when a puppy comes into my home, they start at day one learning, but not FEARING, that I can put my hand in the bowl while eating, I can take a toy away, I can take a bone away. 
Give me a dog that respects the members of the HOUSE that it lives in, not a dog that the HOUSE members have to be wary of the dog because someone MIGHT do something it doesn't like.


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## msvette2u

Again, the point is not reward them for growling.
You prevent it from happening, period, by beginning the trade ups before it becomes an issue.

"New" isn't "wrong", btw. 


_The goal is not to teach your dog to "give it up or else" but to create a relationship based on trust and respect where the dog will WANT to give you what he has.

TRADE UP!
Always trade what your dog has for something better. 
When your dog has an appropriate item, ask to see what he has and then praise and give it back so he doesn't think just because you are showing interest, that you are planning to steal.

1. Prepare two large items, one with peanut butter or cream cheese on it, and one without. For safety, start with something your dog probably wouldn't want to keep, like a wooden spoon or paint stir stick.

2. Hide the doctored one behind your back and hold out the plain one one and let him investigate it while you hold it. (Keep the item in your possession at all times during the groundwork of this lesson.)

3. Next, produce the "better" one AS you say "can I have that?" and praise "thank you!" as he leaves item number one to lick the stuff off item number two. While he is busy with item number two, dip item number one in a bit of peanut butter and hold it behind your back.

4. When he's about finished with the peanut butter on item #2, say "can I have that?" RIGHT BEFORE you produce the newly-doctored item #1. After a few repetitions of this, the phrase "can I have that?" will come to predict "better item is coming" and he will remove his mouth from the item he has when you say "can I have that?" before you have to produce the doctored one.

5. Change your physical orientation. Sitting, kneeling, standing. Leaning over and looming is often a trigger for coveting. Remember at all times that your goal is to NOT trigger a guarding response. If your dog goes still at any time, go back two steps. Do not move to a more difficult level until your dog is relaxed, unthreatened and willing at the previous step. When he hears the phrase "can I have that?" he should look up with eager anticipation.

6. Let go of the item briefly, say "can I have that?" and immediately produce the doctored one. He should have no problem with your picking up the first one or taking it as he lets go if you have worked long enough at the previous level. IF YOUR DOG HAS PROBLEMS GO BACK A STEP, or two.

Increase criteria gradually. 
The above might happen over several days or several weeks. The goal is to avoid bribing: "look what I have - wanna trade?" but instead teach the dog to give you the item without seeing what you have to offer. 

Future steps might include starting over at level one using two large rawhides and going through ALL of the above steps, one by one, carefully watching for any signs of reluctance. The biggest mistake most people make is to get into a power struggle with their dogs. They end up practicing guarding intead of practicing a willing exchange.

During the process you must use errorless management, NEVER letting your dog have a chance to practice stealing, hoarding or guarding.
_

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RG.html

I might add that the OP's been using the old fashioned method and it has led up to a near bite. 
So...maybe they'll want to try a new/better way


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## codmaster

GregK said:


> codmaster, I would use a higher value item, be it food or toy, to get the dog to give up the item he already has. *(What "Higher Value" thing would you use if the dog has his absolute favotite thing now that you have to get away from him/her? *
> 
> *There is no higher value - what do you do then??? Say "Please?")*
> 
> *You can't always 'show a dog who's boss' by just taking something he's guarding away*. Some dogs are very serious about their resource guarding and *won't hesitate to bite when challenged in this manner*.


Then you have either a very weak owner AND/OR a truly psycho dog!

If one is afraid of their own dog, then trading/negotiating/letting the dog have his way sounds like a great idea. 

Or maybe just get rid of a dog that you are afraid of and let him/her go to someone who can treat him/her like a dog!

Probably should warn all the family members and visitors, esp. small children to "don't go near the dog when he is eating, or feeling cranky or just is in a bad mood" at the same time.

Maybe just make up a nice crown for the KING of the house also!

Hog wash! My dog is my dog! He MUST listen to me. My house is NOT a democracy where we "Negotiate" my dog's behavior! That concept is just unbelievable that anyone can be serious about it.

But here in America - to each his own!

*BTW, what do you do if the thing you want to get away from your dog is the mailman or a guest in your house that your dog just latched on to? What "Higher value" object do you offer to your dog" While he/she is chewing?*


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## Germanshepherdlova

wyominggrandma said:


> By why do I need to throw something yummy in the dish when I walk by it. Or not pat them while they are eating? Or give them something of higher value because they growled at me when I walked by them chewing on a bone?
> I guess I am just an old time dog trainer/owner/handler who hasn't read all the good books about rewarding a dog for growling/biting. Of course I am also an old time mom and grandma who expects my kids/grandkids to have respect for others. From a young age, I could take them into a restaurant and they would sit at their chairs and eat and not fuss. Now days you go into a restuarant and the parents are busy chatting away and the kids are running around the restaurant bothering everyone else and I hear" here sweetie, if you quit running around, I will let you have ice cream even though you didn't eat your dinner"..the kid gets ice cream and still runs around. But, kids are not taught manners anymore than dogs are taught manners.
> I guess the "new wave"training allows for the dog to decide who walks by them, when they can be touched and heaven forbid if they are eating, chewing on a bone or whatever, because the whole house must tip toe around the dog while it is eating/chewing/etc so it can guard ITS things.
> I will still do it the old way, when a puppy comes into my home, they start at day one learning, but not FEARING, that I can put my hand in the bowl while eating, I can take a toy away, I can take a bone away.
> Give me a dog that respects the members of the HOUSE that it lives in, not a dog that the HOUSE members have to be wary of the dog because someone MIGHT do something it doesn't like.


If an owner can't take something away from his own dog then sorry to say this but his dog has no respect for him/her. Now I think I have heard it all, owners having to bribe their dog in order for them to let the item go-lol.


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## codmaster

Germanshepherdlova said:


> If an owner can't take something away from his own dog then sorry to say this but his dog has no respect for him/her. I have never heard ANYBODY say that they think it's ok for a dog to growl at his owner for asking him to give something up until I read it on this thread-now I think I have heard it all.


Keep listening - you may hear more!!!! Heh! Heh!


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## msvette2u

I don't get why people are ridiculing a proven method of solving resource guarding?
Wow. How petty. 
The method I copied and pasted (since you guys are obviously not even going to read the link or learn how to do it properly - for like the 8th time, you DO NOT REWARD GROWLING - you don't even GET to that point) works and saves many dogs who'd have been otherwise destroyed.

I hope the OP is willing to work on the method at the Diamonds in the Ruff link, anyway. It could salvage this dog's future. The "old school" method has failed.


----------



## LARHAGE

I expect my dogs to let me take anything from them at anytime, not to laud it over them or prove I'm boss, but rather because I am the owner, am more intelligent and have solely their benefit at stake, it's as simple as that, I don't have time nor believe I should have to bargain with them, neither do my horses get to choose what trails we go on, I have 6 dogs and expect them to get along with each other and to respect my decisions where they are concerned, even my new feisty little rescue terrier knows that anything she has can be taken by me and she also knows that I conversely am the same person that gives her wonderful treats, I simply will not have a dog that snaps or growls at me for anything, it's not acceptable to me under any situation and thankfully in all my years with dogs I have never had one question my ranking in the household.


----------



## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> I would definetly get some pro help with this one.


You do realize the "professional" will do the "trade up" method, right? Unless you get a person who believes you need to choke them out to teach 'em who is boss...sigh...


----------



## shepherdmom

wyominggrandma said:


> By why do I need to throw something yummy in the dish when I walk by it. Or not pat them while they are eating? Or give them something of higher value because they growled at me when I walked by them chewing on a bone?
> I guess I am just an old time dog trainer/owner/handler who hasn't read all the good books about rewarding a dog for growling/biting. Of course I am also an old time mom and grandma who expects my kids/grandkids to have respect for others. From a young age, I could take them into a restaurant and they would sit at their chairs and eat and not fuss. Now days you go into a restuarant and the parents are busy chatting away and the kids are running around the restaurant bothering everyone else and I hear" here sweetie, if you quit running around, I will let you have ice cream even though you didn't eat your dinner"..the kid gets ice cream and still runs around. But, kids are not taught manners anymore than dogs are taught manners.
> I guess the "new wave"training allows for the dog to decide who walks by them, when they can be touched and heaven forbid if they are eating, chewing on a bone or whatever, because the whole house must tip toe around the dog while it is eating/chewing/etc so it can guard ITS things.
> I will still do it the old way, when a puppy comes into my home, they start at day one learning, but not FEARING, that I can put my hand in the bowl while eating, I can take a toy away, I can take a bone away.
> Give me a dog that respects the members of the HOUSE that it lives in, not a dog that the HOUSE members have to be wary of the dog because someone MIGHT do something it doesn't like.


 100% agreed. I hate it when parents let their kids get away with behaving badly in public and it is downright dangerous to let a dog get away with behaving badly. Reward it, let it eat in piece.... Baloney sauce and hot dogs.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> I don't get why people are ridiculing a proven method of solving resource guarding?
> Wow. How petty.
> The method I copied and pasted (since you guys are obviously not even going to read the link or learn how to do it properly - for like the 8th time, you DO NOT REWARD GROWLING - you don't even GET to that point) works and saves many dogs who'd have been otherwise destroyed.
> 
> I hope the OP is willing to work on the method at the Diamonds in the Ruff link, anyway. It could salvage this dog's future. The "old school" method has failed.


*Petty? Heh! Heh!*


----------



## GSD07

Msvette2u, people again forget that the OP's dog is a working prospect, a strong confident bossy pup that demands respect. Treatingng your dog with respect doesn't equal being afraid of your dog or being a weak owner, but I understand that one has to have exposure to such dogs to understand a difference between soft compliant never challenging anything dogs and those who keep their handlers on their toes. Vanilla and chocolate, so true


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## msvette2u

Did you go and read the link?


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## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> You do realize *the "professional" will do the "trade up" method, right*? Unless you get a person who believes you need to choke them out to teach 'em who is boss...sigh...


 
Not likely with the right good professional.

BTW, Who said that you have to "choke them out"? 

Wonder if the "Trade/negotiate" method would have worked when my 90lb male GSD jumped on and grabbed hold of his "favorite" other male GSD in our group.

Wonder what I could have traded in that case?


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## msvette2u

GSD07 said:


> Msvette2u, people again forget that the OP's dog is a working prospect, a strong confident bossy pup that demands respect. Treatingng your dog with respect doesn't equal being afraid of your dog or being a weak owner, but I understand that one has to have exposure to such dogs to understand a difference between soft compliant never challenging anything dogs and those who keep their handlers on their toes. Vanilla and chocolate, so true


Gotcha. 
One that cannot be rolled into submission? Or that you wouldn't want to, anyway. 
If someone wants a Sch prospect they should understand the nature of the beast.


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## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> Wonder if the "Trade/negotiate" method would have worked when my 90lb male GSD jumped on and grabbed hold of his "favorite" other male GSD in our group.
> 
> Wonder what I could have traded in that case?


Cute analogy but not even remotely the same type situations.


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## wyominggrandma

Or you can try another tried and true method, teach the dog from a small puppy what is allowed and what isn't. 
I just don't feel like teaching my dog about trading for higher end things is the way to go. I feel that a dog can and does learn what is expected and what is ALLOWED by teaching them from a young age what respect is and that they live by the rules I give them. 
I has worked for me for years, it worked for my children and my grandchildren.
I will stick by my methods and my years and years and years of experience.Maybe I am not as good as alot of you "younger generation" feel you are, after all, internet learning and book learning is much better than years of hands on experience in all kinds of situations and breeds.
Like I have said before, my dogs don't bite, don't attack, are not fearful or aggressive. My friends, family, kids, their friends and anyone else I invite into my home are welcomed by happy tail wagging dogs. They can go to boarding kennels and stay without issues. I don't worry about my vet getting bitten. I can feel safe with anything being taken from them, curious hands being put in their dishes or taking their toys away. They have wonderful lives, are obedient and love to go anywhere. 
If this way of training and raising dogs doesn't fit what the "experts" say, oh well.


----------



## wyominggrandma

LARHAGE said:


> I expect my dogs to let me take anything from them at anytime, not to laud it over them or prove I'm boss, but rather because I am the owner, am more intelligent and have solely their benefit at stake, it's as simple as that, I don't have time nor believe I should have to bargain with them, neither do my horses get to choose what trails we go on, I have 6 dogs and expect them to get along with each other and to respect my decisions where they are concerned, even my new feisty little rescue terrier knows that anything she has can be taken by me and she also knows that I conversely am the same person that gives her wonderful treats, I simply will not have a dog that snaps or growls at me for anything, it's not acceptable to me under any situation and thankfully in all my years with dogs I have never had one question my ranking in the household.


 I agree with everything you said. Including the horses. Can you imagine training horses the same way some say to train dogs here? I am going to pick up your foot to clean it out, what? you don't want your foot pulled up, so you are going to kick me? Hmm, lets see, how about if I trade you a kick for a nice apple? Not likely, the horse pulls its foot away, and you make it stand there until it doesn't, however it has to be done. A thousand pound animals can't make its own decisions, why should a dog be able to.


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## msvette2u

Good gosh people.
The OP asked for advice and we've given it. There's no need to be snotty, arrogant or derisive. Do you think the trainers put it up on the website because it failed miserably? Or because just maybe it works? Did they say on the site (if you visited the page) "reward the dog for growling!" Um, no, not in the least. But that's not what you're interested in, apparently...?? 

The OP obviously is having issues and apparently has been working with this dog since it was a puppy. 
I take that to mean that her methods (quite possibly the very ones the naysayers are describing) failed.


----------



## wyominggrandma

msvette2u said:


> Good gosh people.
> The OP asked for advice and we've given it. There's no need to be snotty, arrogant or derisive. Do you think the trainers put it up on the website because it failed miserably? Or because just maybe it works? Did they say on the site (if you visited the page) "reward the dog for growling!" Um, no, not in the least. But that's not what you're interested in, apparently...??
> 
> The OP obviously is having issues and apparently has been working with this dog since it was a puppy.
> I take that to mean that her methods (quite possibly the very ones the naysayers are describing) failed.


Umm, maybe the OP has been training the way you are talking about on the websites and it failed.


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## msvette2u

From what they described, no.


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## msvette2u

Lialla said:


> This is the first time he behaved like that. Never saw any agression until today.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know whether what I did after he first growled at me was right or aggrivated him more. He was in his crated, and I didn't want just let him be after growling or just take the stick away. I got him out of his crate into middle and made him work for it, he growled at first, but then obeyed. Had my daughter did the same, but my son was hesitant, distracted with a video game, so I just sat near Grom petting him while he was chewing the stick, my daughter was nearby, and then my son approached. That's when Grom growled and snapped at him.
> 
> I got an order from BestBullySticks coming in tomorrow, will have more material to practice with



To the OP, if you can wade through the mess and find this, definitely do the trading, but start with lower value items than the bully sticks. 

The Diamonds in the Ruff site describes it well. 

Resource Guarding


----------



## Shaina

Training from puppyhood works, but this dog wasnt, so that advice wont work. Trading is a good way to make it a fun session and if works, more power to ya! I trained my girl from puppyhood and if she decided to bite me at any point I can guaruntee it won't be a fun training session. However, each person has to do what they think will work. In schutzhund, Ill trade a tug for a ball to teach out. Ill also out my dog and AS SOON as they out I mark the behavior with "yes" and let her have it again. I believe in teaching a dog that just because I took the item doesnt mean she wont get it back, get to play, etc. Biting a mailman/stranger for entering your house is an entirely different situation, imo, and shouldnt be compared to this.


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## RebelGSD

wyominggrandma said:


> Like I have said before, my dogs don't bite, don't attack, are not fearful or aggressive.


You said many times that you put dogs down that showed any signs of aggression. So the dogs of yours that had the potential to bite or be aggressive are dead. What people are talking about is fixing a dog that shows aggression as opposed to killing it.


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## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> You do realize the "professional" will do the "trade up" method, right? Unless you get a person who believes you need to choke them out to teach 'em who is boss...sigh...


You do realize you can correct without hurting a dog right. *sigh* Dogs and kids both need boundries and structure. How are they going to learn those boundries if you don't teach them too them? How can they feel secure if they don't know what is expected of them? You have to be the boss and sometimes that means correcting bad behavior. If a puppy bites you do you reward him with a treat? If a puppy bites me I yelp, if a puppy bites me a second time i bite him back.. Not hard just enough to suprise him. Same with a todler. You can't reason with them. They start throwing a tempertantrum a quick swat on padded diaper combined with a loud no was always enough to make them stop. It startled them rather than hurt them but it also showed I mean business and before anyone jumps in with training with treats is proven, so is training with correction. I've raised at least 6 puppies, had several rescues and raised two children to productive members of society. My 23 year old has he earned her BA and is working on a Masters, and works full time. My 19 year old is an Engineering Major is in the Honors College and works in the Math Department at a major university. My dogs have all been family members who have through the years protected my kids from a rattle snake and a burgler who tried to come in the back door, yet they have never bitten a child, another animal except in play, or even growled at a vet. How many of you who train with treats can show a proven track record like that?


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## msvette2u

My kids never even bit me. Does that make me a better dog trainer!?? Better mom???


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## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> My kids never even bit me. Does that make me a better dog trainer!?? Better mom???


Wow no, it just makes you someone who refuses to see things from a different point of view. I was trying to point out that not all correction is bad. However if you don't even want to open yourself to the possiblity that your way of training is not the only way then your loss or rather your dogs and kids loss. :crazy:


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## shepherdmom

I'm not saying my dogs are perfect. I've had the great escape artist and the butter stealing ace, and I'm not saying my kids are perfect, well ya maybe I am they are awesome.... I'm just saying that just because someone doesn't train the way you do with rewards doesn't mean they are going to "choke" their dogs and I'm saying dogs that are raised with correction can grow up to be healthy confident dogs that are not fearful or agressive.


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## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> Cute analogy but not even remotely the same type situations.


You're wasting your time. People who don't want to get it won't get it, no matter how many times you try to explain it, so why bother? They're just going to continue mischaracterizing everything you say. We've been there before and we'll be there again.


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## Cassidy's Mom

wyominggrandma said:


> Maybe I am not as good as alot of you "younger generation" feel you are, after all, internet learning and book learning is much better than years of hands on experience in all kinds of situations and breeds.


How old are you?


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## Cassidy's Mom

shepherdmom said:


> I was trying to point out that not all correction is bad.


Who said that it was?


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## shepherdmom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Who said that it was?


The person who said this: "You do realize the "professional" will do the "trade up" method, right? Unless you get a person who believes you need to choke them out to teach 'em who is boss...sigh..."


----------



## msvette2u

shepherdmom said:


> Wow no, it just makes you someone who refuses to see things from a different point of view. I was trying to point out that not all correction is bad. However if you don't even want to open yourself to the possiblity that your way of training is not the only way then your loss or rather your dogs and kids loss. :crazy:


You are so far off base with your assumption its not even funny. 
Thanks for the heads up Cassidy'smom.


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## JakodaCD OA

geez louise

Dogs do not 'think' like humans so one needs to stop humanizing.

What is acceptable and not acceptable should be worked on when one is very young.

If you had a steak on your plate and someone came along and said, I'm taking that steak but I'll give you a peanut butter sandwich, which one are you going to want?

I think the trading up method can work, BUT I also think giving a dog a high value treat he should be LEFT IN PEACE to enjoy his "steak"..

Small kids don't understand this, why would a young dog? How many times has one told their 2 year old, LEAVE THE DOG ALONE? and the kid goes right back to bugging them?? So do ya beat the kid? beat the dog? 

I dunno, I don't have any suggestions because it seems like there's a few here


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## Stella's Mom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That's exactly the purpose of "silly exchange games" training - to teach the dog to willingly give things up so you don't have to worry about them growling, gulping, or bolting.


We too have taught our dog teach our dog "out" or "aus" and have had no problem with her dropping what is in her mouth by playing the exchange game.


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## shepherdmom

JakodaCD OA said:


> geez louise
> 
> Dogs do not 'think' like humans so one needs to stop humanizing.


I've got news for you kids do not think like humans either. We are all animals. Reward bad behavior it keeps happening. Seperating the dog while he eats will not fix the problem. You do it your way I'll do it mine. My way works! Hope some kid doesn't accidently come into the room when your dog has his steak.


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## msvette2u

Can you explain "your way" because I've never even heard anyone describe it.
The OP is needing viable solutions, not sneering attitudes towards a method of training some of you scoff at. 

I mean if people can't even tell how they trained their dog to not resource guard, without derision towards a tried and true method of training, how is the OP or any of us supposed to know how to do it??


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> Wow no,* it just makes you someone who refuses to see things from a different point of view*. I was trying to point out that not all correction is bad. However if you don't even want to open yourself to the possiblity that your way of training is not the only way then your loss or rather your dogs and kids loss. :crazy:


So what exactly are YOU doing? You stated YOUR method works and hope no one walks past the dog with the "steak" you are refuses to see anything besides your method yet have the nerve to talk about someone else not doing it? Pot or kettle take your pick. 

Now as someone who TRAINS using positive methods I have absolutely ZERO problems giving a physical correction. I do believe you can not use a correction on a dog until it learns something because it's not being "fair" I'm all for asking for a sit then giving a treat or toy while the PUP is learning however once they have learned the behavior then decided to CHOOSE not to obey it they are met with a physical correction because no you may not choose which of my commands you listen to they were commands not requests. I do not think you can be all one way or another. 

Since it keeps coming up I will say it again.. as a pup they need to be TAUGHT once they are older and have been taught and choose to stray from the path then yes they need to be reminded of their place I'm all for that. Jinx has been taught I'm not going to constantly mess with her however when I do she is to deal with it. If I approach her and she has something she shouldn't have she doesn't run with it she stands there I don't take it out of her mouth because she knows the word "out" and listens the first time I say it when she was learning and wasn't great at it when I said "out" and she didn't I removed it from her mouth. If she gets something stuck in her back teeth I put my hand in and take it out no questions asked and no struggle however she was also TAUGHT this as a pup. I think people are missing the big picture here. A young pup learning yes do trade games or rewards do "out" exercises etc.. older dog that should know this stuff is then made to comply because there are situations that they simply ca not be allowed to make their own decisions however if trained properly as a pup/young dog these situations shouldn't arise. If they do then yes the dog needs to be "put in its place" 

I wont even get into the topic of kids because thats a slippery slope however being one of those "younger" people my kids know better then to act up. When they were little they were TAUGHT proper behavior when they get older and decide to act like a fool they get reprimanded (or the famous "do you want to go to the bathroom") 

Just because a dog is taught with treats doesn't mean you always have treats on hand for the desired behaviors its a method of teaching after teaching theres a method for proofing after they've been proofed and decide just to be defiant theres methods for correction. How do u teach an 8 week old pup to "platz"? You either use something and lure the pup into position or physically force them down. You can disagree with my statements all you want but the fact is there is no one way to train any dog let alone only one way to treat all dogs... your method may work now until you get a hard dog that could care less of any physical correction at all.. then what do you do? Just like a kid that gets spanked early on and for every little thing who becomes numb to it and doesn't care anymore (and no I have no problems with spanking a child either) however you can't do it for every little thing or it loses its effect. Jinx as a pup bit harder if you yiped, if you scruffed her she came back harder, time out in the crate? she came out even more ramped up, tried pinning her? yeah don't even go there. Every single thing the trainers recommended didn't work she was by no means aggressive just a harder dog and taught me many new methods of training.


----------



## GregK

RebelGSD said:


> You said many times that you put dogs down that showed any signs of aggression. So the dogs of yours that had the potential to bite or be aggressive are dead.


You gotta be kidding me!!?? Is this true??


----------



## GSD07

Holmeshx2 said:


> Jinx as a pup bit harder if you yiped, if you scruffed her she came back harder, time out in the crate? she came out even more ramped up, tried pinning her? yeah don't even go there.


 :wild: That sounds so familiar :wub:

GregK, yeah, that's true, I remember that poster's comments. Why play silly games when the pup can be deemed aggressive (growled at a child!!) and put down.


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> I can't begin to tell you how much I diagree with this. This is giving them an excuse for bad behavior just like letting a child get away with a temper tantrum. If you train a pup right when they are young take it away and give it back take it away and give it back before their is a growling issue they are going to know they will always get it back this is training not teasing, but if you let them get away with bad behavior once they will constantly push your boundries. You have to be consistant. If you are willing to put a dog in a crate every time he gets a treat well that is your choice but my dogs are part of the family and as such they need to follow family rules. Puppies or kids no tempertantrums allowed.


Just for the record (again) never ONCE did I say allowing bad behavior was acceptable. Its about teaching and training so they don't do the behavior. In the case of the OP it was handled wrong and no offense but seems more like she's doing the whole "fake it til you make it" thing and the dog is calling her out on it. Yeah you can talk a good game bring the dog out and show him whos boss but if afterwards your scared of your own dog it's gonna pick up on it and I don't think anyone here can disagree with that one. If you don't have confidence in yourself and your dog the dog knows it and will feed off of it. You can't "act" like a leader you have to be one which is why some people are just naturally phenomenal trainers.

Specifically referring to the OP I don't think the trading for a higher value resource is going to be the best option right now. I would however back off the special goodies for a bit until you get the issue under control and when the dog screws up YOU fix it not the kids. I'm all for having the kids do obedience with the dog just for regular training and bonding but definitely not as a "correction" it needs to be you not the kids.


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> Can you explain "your way" because I've never even heard anyone describe it.
> The OP is needing viable solutions, not sneering attitudes towards a method of training some of you scoff at.
> 
> I mean if people can't even tell how they trained their dog to not resource guard, without derision towards a tried and true method of training, how is the OP or any of us supposed to know how to do it??


If you will look back through the posts I said. "If you train a pup right when they are young take it away and give it back take it away and give it back before there is a growling issue they are going to know they will always get it back this is training not teasing, but if you let them get away with bad behavior once they will constantly push your boundaries. You have to be consistent." 

The Grandam lady also said it "I will still do it the old way, when a puppy comes into my home, they start at day one learning, but not FEARING, that I can put my hand in the bowl while eating, I can take a toy away, I can take a bone away"
You have to do it regularly and you have to be consistant. From day one that puppy has to know it is your house your rules. Tried and true. It has worked for many of us old timers. Love, boundries, and rules. Nothing is free puuppies have to earn their position and status... No bargining, no treats, and trade ups. The treat is your affection your attention. Occasionally a real treat slipped in. Time out is the kennel and if a puppy bites yelp if it does it again bite him back. From day one puppy has to know you are the boss and you will protect him. As puppy grows he will return that love an affection and protection 100 fold. Even with an adult dog, we took in a 5 + year old Rescue Akita. From day one he was shown love an affection. He was also taught we could take anything and then we would give it back. Right away while he was still new and before he got comfy with us and decided to be grumpy about it. It was a game and he learned right away. He got a home, protection and a full belly in return we got unconditional love, protection and a family member.


----------



## msvette2u

Okay...so take away the food and give it back.
I don't know about anyone else but when I order food, I expect it brought out and then not taken away in 2 minutes and then brought back.
This method can easily make dogs more protective, effectively backfiring right in your face. Or a child's face.


----------



## GregK

gsd07 said:


> gregk, yeah, that's true, i remember that poster's comments. Why play silly games when the pup can be deemed aggressive (growled at a child!!) and put down.


ugh!!!


----------



## Jax08

I'm sure the OP has headed or cover by now.

Funny how some people get down right belligerent when their methods aren't agreed with.

You have to find what works for your dog. Everyone has a slightly different take on how things should be done. If one solution isn't working for you, then change what you are doing.

Personally, teaching "Leave It" and "Drop It" seems a much better way to teach the dog that they need to to leave something alone or drop something rather than to take something away and give it back repeatedly. Teaching commands makes it perfectly clear to the dog what is expected while messing with their food and treats after you've given it to them would be confusing to them. Just my opinion based on what I like to think is common sense.

Maybe the people who have never had a problem with a dog while messing with their food/treats/toys have just gotten lucky and haven't run into a dog that highly objected.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

shepherdmom said:


> The person who said this: "You do realize the "professional" will do the "trade up" method, right? Unless you get a person who believes you need to choke them out to teach 'em who is boss...sigh..."


Sorry, it's not the same thing. YOU said: "I was trying to point out that not all correction is bad." She never said all corrections are bad, so there was no reason to point out that they're not. 

This is exactly the problem with these conversations, people insist on reading stuff into other people's posts that they never said, and then arguing against it as if they had. 

Silly, pointless, waste of time. :shrug:


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> Okay...so take away the food and give it back.
> I don't know about anyone else but when I order food, I expect it brought out and then not taken away in 2 minutes and then brought back.
> This method can easily make dogs more protective, effectively backfiring right in your face. Or a child's face.


Human behavior on a dog. The dog is not going to be pissed because you take his food, just confused.... however if you re-read the post no one said to take away the food. Grandma said put your hand in the bowl. Take a handful of it see how he reacts (while he is little) pick up the bowl you can put something good on it before you give it back. If you put a touch of bacon greese on it or something else yummy he will see that good things come when humans take the bowl.. (not every time though switch it up as he gets older if he behaves well add a little something if he misbehaves keep it a little longer before giving it back) get the puppy used to having your hands in the dish. 

I did say take away the bone or toy (game)... pick it up play tug with it take it but toss it back right way. Make him sit before he gets it back or lie down or roll over. toys/bones are treats. Good behavior gets attention. 

In any case what the dog craves is not necessarly the food I don't know about you but my puppies are well fed... what they really want is my attention and approval. Good behavior gets praise attention and loves, bad behavior gets pissed off voice, mom glare and cold shoulder.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

shepherdmom said:


> Reward bad behavior it keeps happening.


Of course it will. Fortunately, nobody is suggesting that anyone reward bad behavior, and pretending that they are just so you (not you personally, "you" in general) can argue against what they never said in the first place is just ridiculous.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

shepherdmom said:


> How many of you who train with treats can show a proven track record like that?


Have you ever heard of Michael Ellis?


----------



## shepherdmom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sorry, it's not the same thing. YOU said: "I was trying to point out that not all correction is bad." She never said all corrections are bad, so there was no reason to point out that they're not.
> 
> This is exactly the problem with these conversations, people insist on reading stuff into other people's posts that they never said, and then arguing against it as if they had.
> 
> Silly, pointless, waste of time. :shrug:


Not to keep this going cause I have things to get done today but what she said was that anyone who doesn't use the trade up method chokes them to show them who is boss. That is pretty clear and straightforward. No one had to read anything into that. She flat out said it. People who use correction choke their dogs. There are ways to correct dogs without choking them.


----------



## shepherdmom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you ever heard of Michael Ellis?


 Nope whos that?


----------



## shepherdmom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Of course it will. Fortunately, nobody is suggesting that anyone reward bad behavior, and pretending that they are just so you (not you personally, "you" in general) can argue against what they never said in the first place is just ridiculous.


If trading up and giving him a better toy or a treat when he growls over the first one is not rewarding bad behavior I don't know what is?


----------



## msvette2u

shepherdmom said:


> Not to keep this going cause I have things to get done today but what she said was that anyone who doesn't use the trade up method chokes them to show them who is boss. That is pretty clear and straightforward. No one had to read anything into that. She flat out said it. People who use correction choke their dogs. There are ways to correct dogs without choking them.


:rofl:

I'm sorry but that is NOT what I said. 
I said trainers these days (good ones anyway, the kind worth their money) use "trade up".
Then there's old school trainers who feel it's better to choke dogs out. 
I was referring to trainers in my post. 

I didn't say "anyone who doesn't trade up chokes". 
You are blatantly adding, subtracting, modifying and making things up about my posts. It's only about 2 pages, or maybe 6 by now, back. Run re-read it.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Since it keeps coming up I will say it again.. as a pup they need to be TAUGHT once they are older and have been taught and choose to stray from the path then yes they need to be reminded of their place I'm all for that. Jinx has been taught I'm not going to constantly mess with her however when I do she is to deal with it. If I approach her and she has something she shouldn't have she doesn't run with it she stands there I don't take it out of her mouth because she knows the word "out" and listens the first time I say it when she was learning and wasn't great at it when I said "out" and she didn't I removed it from her mouth. If she gets something stuck in her back teeth I put my hand in and take it out no questions asked and no struggle however she was also TAUGHT this as a pup. I think people are missing the big picture here. A young pup learning yes do trade games or rewards do "out" exercises etc.. older dog that should know this stuff is then made to comply because there are situations that they simply ca not be allowed to make their own decisions however if trained properly as a pup/young dog these situations shouldn't arise. If they do then yes the dog needs to be "put in its place"


:thumbup: It's clear that some of the people posting on this thread don't understand what the rest of us are talking about, and I think you explained it well. When people say things like they won't "bargain" with their dogs, I want to do this: :headbang: Because I don't bargain with my dog either, training your dog to willingly give stuff up is not about bargaining with them. There's a difference between what I do when I'm TEACHING my dogs what I expect from them, and what happens after they've been taught. Once I've taught them, I expect them to comply. If they get something they aren't supposed to have and I need to take it away, I do. I don't "bargain" with them, I don't "bribe" them with a treat, I don't "give up" if they don't drop it immediately, and they don't growl at me or try to bite when if I have to grab the muzzle, force it open, and stick my hand in and take it. 



> Just because a dog is taught with treats doesn't mean you always have treats on hand for the desired behaviors its a method of teaching after teaching theres a method for proofing after they've been proofed and decide just to be defiant theres methods for correction.


Exactly. And again, if people think that using treats in training means that you always have to have treats on you for your dog to comply then they're showing a fundamental lack of understanding of the training method. 



Jax08 said:


> Personally, teaching "Leave It" and "Drop It" seems a much better way to teach the dog that they need to to leave something alone or drop something rather than to take something away and give it back repeatedly. Teaching commands makes it perfectly clear to the dog what is expected while messing with their food and treats after you've given it to them would be confusing to them. Just my opinion based on what I like to think is common sense.


*clapping* Common sense - a good thing!


----------



## GatorDog

I have just always taught my dog's to "out" whatever they have and deal with it. I don't care how badly you want it, _it's mine, I bought it, I gave it to you, and I may or may not take it away at will._ No, you won't get an equally great, or even better treat because you didn't want to give up the one you had. You're gonna give it up and deal with it, or you will get nothing at all.

That's my house rule. Kids and animals alike. If I were in your situation with him growling and snapping at anyone, it'd result with my dog on a leash and training collar for quite a while if there is a high value item in the mix. I'd probably just keep high value items out of the house until the dog learns an "out" command. And then if he has something, you can tell him to drop it and he'll know what you're asking rather than assuming you're going to take it away.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

shepherdmom said:


> Not to keep this going cause I have things to get done today but what she said was that anyone who doesn't use the trade up method chokes them to show them who is boss. That is pretty clear and straightforward. No one had to read anything into that. She flat out said it. People who use correction choke their dogs. There are ways to correct dogs without choking them.


Nope. That's not what she said. Go back and read it again. 



shepherdmom said:


> If trading up and giving him a better toy or a treat when he growls over the first one is not rewarding bad behavior I don't know what is?


See? You've totally misunderstood the concept. "Silly trading games" PREVENT growling, you don't wait until your dog is resource guarding to train them not to resource guard. 

I'm one of the "older generation" on here, but fortunately I'm not still doing things the way everyone was decades ago. I'm always learning, still, and I continue to learn and adapt my training to each new dog. 

You really DON'T know who Michael Ellis is? 

Michael Ellis bio | Loups du Soleil

The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers



> Michael is an internationally renowned dog trainer and teacher with 30 years of experience in the competitive dog sports. He has taught extensively to a very diverse group of trainers, from competitive sport trainers, police departments, and the US military, to search and rescue groups, service dog agencies, and pet dog trainers. Michael’s clear, concise, and patient style has made him one of the most popular coaches of trainers in the country. He has given over 300 seminars in the United States, Canada, and South America, that’s well over a thousand days of lecture and practical work in the last eight years alone, and as a result, has been one of the driving forces in popularizing reward based training systems for the protection sports.
> 
> Michael has competed in and done decoy/helper work for several national level competitions, both in Schutzhund and ringsport. He was also one of the first Mondioring decoys certified in the US. He has coached national champions in several disciplines, and many national and international competitors, but he is perhaps most proud of the hundreds of club level and beginning trainers that he has helped to improve their communication and physical skills. He was a past president of the American Working Malinois Association and a former board member of the US Mondioring Association.
> 
> Michael, in partnership with trainer Lisa Maze, breeds Malinois under the kennel name Loups du Soleil, one of the most successful breeders of working Malinois in North America.
> 
> If you would like to get a better feel for Michael’s philosophy on training you can watch the streaming video of one of his lectures here on our site.
> 
> If you would like to read what other well known dog trainers have to say about Michael and his philosophy on dog training, you can read these testimonials.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

GatorDog said:


> I have just always taught my dog's to "out" whatever they have and deal with it. I don't care how badly you want it, _it's mine, I bought it, I gave it to you, and I may or may not take it away at will._ No, you won't get an equally great, or even better treat because you didn't want to give up the one you had. You're gonna give it up and deal with it, or you will get nothing at all.


See my post right above yours.


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I'm sorry but that is NOT what I said.
> I said trainers these days (good ones anyway, the kind worth their money) use "trade up".
> Then there's old school trainers who feel it's better to choke dogs out.
> I was referring to trainers in my post.
> 
> I didn't say "anyone who doesn't trade up chokes".
> You are blatantly adding, subtracting, modifying and making things up about my posts. It's only about 2 pages, or maybe 6 by now, back. Run re-read it.


Here is exactly what you said.... 

You said ""You do realize the "professional" will do the "trade up" method, right? Unless you get a person who believes you need to choke them out to teach 'em who is boss...sigh..."

I have re-read it several times and I don't see how I could have possibly gotten you were refering to new good trainers vrs apparently bad old school trainers. However that being said just because something is new doesn't automatically make it better. There is a lot to be said for the old ways of dog training and someday when you are old and some young thing scoffs at your tried an true method of training and says they do it better you will take offense also.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Sheperdmom, how old are you? How old do you think msvette2u is?


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## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> someday when you are old and some young thing scoffs at your tried an true method of training and says they do it better you will take offense also.


:rofl: This thread is so out of control. 

Age does not necessarily equal better.

If you are "old" then you grew up using a pen and paper. If you are "young" you grew up using a computer. Progress and learning new ways to do things are not relegated strictly to the "young". To even act like only an old method is the only way and the best way is just plain silly.

And WHY are you taking such offense at another training method? It's not like anyone is forcing you to do it their way. That's like taking offense at someone putting the toilet paper on the roll in THEIR bathroom differently than you do.


----------



## msvette2u

Oh dear GOD. 
Do *not* go down the toilet paper hanging methods pathway!!!!

PS. If U type Lk dis U may in fact be young.


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Oh dear GOD.
> Do *not* go down the toilet paper hanging methods pathway!!!!
> 
> PS. If U type Lk dis U may in fact be young.


I won't as long as you agree to hang it so it pulls from the bottom and not the top. It's the only way to be done.

sooo...if you can only spell phonetically then you are young? Orrrrr...you could be very old and from the 1800s when spelling was not standardized! lol


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## msvette2u

You're very wrong. About the toilet paper. But that's okay. I just won't use your bathroom. :rofl:

How about...you know you're old if you used an inkwell!?

You know you're young if you're like, 'WTF is an inkwell'? 
Or if you use the word "like" in a sentence in any context other than "I like you".


----------



## Jax08

:rofl:


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: This thread is so out of control.
> 
> Age does not necessarily equal better.
> 
> If you are "old" then you grew up using a pen and paper. If you are "young" you grew up using a computer. *Progress and learning new ways to do things are not relegated strictly to the "young". To even act like only an old method is the only way and the best way is just plain silly.*
> 
> And WHY are you taking such offense at another training method? It's not like anyone is forcing you to do it their way. That's like taking offense at someone putting the toilet paper on the roll in THEIR bathroom differently than you do.


It HAS gotten pretty silly! :rofl: Nobody is saying that anything new is automatically better. But sometimes it is. Not _always_, but sometimes. We understand a lot more about dog behavior and how animals learn than we did 40 years ago. Shouldn't we put that knowledge to good use by adapting our training methods in order to communicate with our dogs more clearly, in a way they understand? 

Really, somebody please shoot me if I ever decide that I've learned everything I'll ever need to know about dog training, that the "old" tried and true ways are good enough and I don't need to know anything more.


----------



## msvette2u

I mean...they clicker train Orca whales. Killer whales. This stuff works!
I'm glad that in my own twilight years I learned a few things along the way (still am haha). 
Still waiting for that guesstimate on my age


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## chelle

The paper must be pulled from the bottom.


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## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Or if you use the word "like" in a sentence in any context other than "I like you".


That could date you to the 80s and the "valley girl" stage! Ya know like so gnarly, dude.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> Still waiting for that guesstimate on my age


I'm thinking you're not as old as me.


----------



## Jax08

chelle said:


> The paper must be pulled from the bottom.


You are my friend!


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> I won't as long as you agree to hang it so it pulls from the bottom and not the top. It's the only way to be done.
> 
> sooo...if you can only spell phonetically then you are young? Orrrrr...you could be very old and from the 1800s when spelling was not standardized! lol


Toilet paper must be hung so that it comes from the top.  Dogs must be choked at least three times a day  and to cassidys mom I'm old enough to know better but too young to care. I have no idea how old you all are. @ jax "gag me with a spoon" dude... to everyone c u l8tr... Have a good day all I'm off to college (yes really) working on my second degree because I love learning.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

BTW, I just took Halo's Kong football toy away from her. :wild: 










Well, actually I didn't take it away - I walked up to her and asked her if I could have it and she gave it to me.


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## Jax08

That's cheating Debbie. It doesn't count unless you take it away countless times to prove you can. Asking for it is just cheating!


----------



## codmaster

Shaina said:


> Training from puppyhood works, but this dog wasnt, so that advice wont work. Trading is a good way to make it a fun session and if works, more power to ya! I trained my girl from puppyhood and if she decided to bite me at any point I can guaruntee it won't be a fun training session. However, each person has to do what they think will work. In schutzhund, Ill trade a tug for a ball to teach out. Ill also out my dog and AS SOON as they out I mark the behavior with "yes" and let her have it again. I believe in teaching a dog that just because I took the item doesnt mean she wont get it back, get to play, etc. Biting a mailman/stranger for entering your house is an entirely different situation, imo, and shouldnt be compared to this.


So Shaina,


----------



## msvette2u

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm thinking you're not as old as me.


It's gnarly. We shouldn't go there either


----------



## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> That's cheating Debbie. It doesn't count unless you take it away countless times to prove you can. Asking for it is just cheating!


But notice she asked. She wasn't bargaining! She gets points for that!


----------



## codmaster

Shaina said:


> Training from puppyhood works, but this dog wasnt, so that advice wont work. Trading is a good way to make it a fun session and if works, more power to ya! I trained my girl from puppyhood and if she decided to bite me at any point I can guaruntee it won't be a fun training session. However, each person has to do what they think will work. In schutzhund, Ill trade a tug for a ball to teach out. Ill also out my dog and AS SOON as they out I mark the behavior with "yes" and let her have it again. I believe in teaching a dog that just because I took the item doesnt mean she wont get it back, get to play, etc. Biting a mailman/stranger for entering your house is an entirely different situation, imo, and shouldnt be compared to this.


*So Shaina,*

maybe you can answer my recent question that the advocates of the "negotiating with your dog to do something approach" seem to have very conviniently (maybe they don't have any answer?????) forgotten to answer.

That is, *what exactly do you do* if the dog chhoses not to go for your trade and decides just to keep whatever he/she has in it's mouth at the time you want to take it away from them. I.E. they prefer the ball instead of the Piece of Chicken that you want to trade. 

Seems like a very simple direct easy to answer question (and one that would certainly come up with many dogs - so I really wonder why none of the "Trading" approach to getting your dog to let you take something away from them seem to be able to answer it.

So I hope that maybe you (and others?) can try to answer this question.

Thanks!


----------



## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> BTW, I just took Halo's Kong football toy away from her. :wild:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, actually I didn't take it away - I walked up to her and asked her if I could have it and she gave it to me.


 
Did you have to say PLEASE? What would you have done if she said NO!

Seems like it would have been really rude if you just took her toy out of her mouth. I of course don't know your dog, but it might even have hurt your dog's feeling.


----------



## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> *So Shaina,*
> 
> maybe you can answer my recent question that the advocates of the "negotiating with your dog to do something approach" seem to have very conviniently (maybe they don't have any answer?????) forgotten to answer.
> 
> That is, *what exactly do you do* if the dog chhoses not to go for your trade and decides just to keep whatever he/she has in it's mouth at the time you want to take it away from them. I.E. they prefer the ball instead of the Piece of Chicken that you want to trade.
> 
> Seems like a very simple direct easy to answer question (and one that would certainly come up with many dogs - so I really wonder why none of the "Trading" approach to getting your dog to let you take something away from them seem to be able to answer it.
> 
> So I hope that maybe you (and others?) can try to answer this question.
> 
> Thanks!



We've explained it over and over. You do not wait until resource guarding starts to try to work on it.

If you read the steps of the "Trading up" method you'd understand it.

Resource Guarding

From the moment you obtain your dog you begin this "game".

*1. Prepare two large items, one with peanut butter or cream cheese on it, and one without. For safety, start with something your dog probably wouldn't want to keep, like a wooden spoon or paint stir stick.

2. Hide the doctored one behind your back and hold out the plain one one and let him investigate it while you hold it. (Keep the item in your possession at all times during the groundwork of this lesson.)

3. Next, produce the "better" one AS you say "can I have that?" and praise "thank you!" as he leaves item number one to lick the stuff off item number two. While he is busy with item number two, dip item number one in a bit of peanut butter and hold it behind your back.

4. When he's about finished with the peanut butter on item #2, say "can I have that?" RIGHT BEFORE you produce the newly-doctored item #1. After a few repetitions of this, the phrase "can I have that?" will come to predict "better item is coming" and he will remove his mouth from the item he has when you say "can I have that?" before you have to produce the doctored one.

5. Change your physical orientation. Sitting, kneeling, standing. Leaning over and looming is often a trigger for coveting. Remember at all times that your goal is to NOT trigger a guarding response. If your dog goes still at any time, go back two steps. Do not move to a more difficult level until your dog is relaxed, unthreatened and willing at the previous step. When he hears the phrase "can I have that?" he should look up with eager anticipation.

6. Let go of the item briefly, say "can I have that?" and immediately produce the doctored one. He should have no problem with your picking up the first one or taking it as he lets go if you have worked long enough at the previous level. IF YOUR DOG HAS PROBLEMS GO BACK A STEP, or two.*


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

codmaster said:


> Did you have to say PLEASE? What would you have done if she said NO!
> 
> Seems like it would have been really rude if you just took her toy out of her mouth. I of course don't know your dog, but *it might even have hurt your dog's feeling.*


:rofl: No, you definitely do NOT know my dog, lol! And no, I didn't have to say please, and if she hadn't let go immediately I would have stood there holding onto it until she did. I don't just go around routinely taking toys out of my dogs mouths, not because that would be "rude", but because it's silly and unnecessary. But she likes this game and often initiates it herself, so sometimes I play it with her, which she finds amusing. Since this is a game, (not to be confused with the "give" command, which is not optional) she doesn't HAVE to give it to me if she doesn't want to, but she always does. I put my hand on it, ask her if I can have it, and she lets go. I tell her "thank you!", wait for her to give me eye contact, and then give it back to her. She doesn't say "no" because I've trained her that there's no reason not to let me have what I ask for.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> But notice she asked. She wasn't bargaining! She gets points for that!


I didn't bribe her either - no treats were involved in this transaction!


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> We've explained it over and over. You do not wait until resource guarding starts to try to work on it. *GREAT idea! and exactly what I do - I just get the dog used to the owner and anyone in the family being able to take anything out of his mouth or away from him at anytime just because they want to and no trade is needed (could do it but not required to "TRADE").*
> 
> If you read the steps of the "Trading up" method you'd understand it.
> 
> *I really do understand the approach (don't believe it, but do understand!)*
> 
> Resource Guarding
> 
> From the moment you obtain your dog you begin this "game".
> 
> *Too late for the OP (and a lot of people)!*
> *So what should they do? *
> *How about just impressing on the dog who is really in charge of his/her behavior?*
> 
> *1. Prepare two large items, one with peanut butter or cream cheese on it, and one without. For safety, start with something your dog probably wouldn't want to keep, like a wooden spoon or paint stir stick.*
> 
> *2. Hide the doctored one behind your back and hold out the plain one one and let him investigate it while you hold it. (Keep the item in your possession at all times during the groundwork of this lesson.)*
> 
> *3. Next, produce the "better" one AS you say "can I have that?" and praise "thank you!" as he leaves item number one to lick the stuff off item number two. While he is busy with item number two, dip item number one in a bit of peanut butter and hold it behind your back.*
> 
> *4. When he's about finished with the peanut butter on item #2, say "can I have that?" RIGHT BEFORE you produce the newly-doctored item #1. After a few repetitions of this, the phrase "can I have that?" will come to predict "better item is coming" and he will remove his mouth from the item he has when you say "can I have that?" before you have to produce the doctored one.*
> 
> *5. Change your physical orientation. Sitting, kneeling, standing. Leaning over and looming is often a trigger for coveting. Remember at all times that your goal is to NOT trigger a guarding response. If your dog goes still at any time, go back two steps. Do not move to a more difficult level until your dog is relaxed, unthreatened and willing at the previous step. When he hears the phrase "can I have that?" he should look up with eager anticipation.*
> 
> *6. Let go of the item briefly, say "can I have that?" and immediately produce the doctored one. He should have no problem with your picking up the first one or taking it as he lets go if you have worked long enough at the previous level. IF YOUR DOG HAS PROBLEMS GO BACK A STEP, or two.*


Still the question still remains - What if the "Higher value (in your mind!) is not "Better" in your dog's mind?????????? HHHMMMMMMM!

BTW, *how long* will it take on average before anyone in the family can take anything at all out of the family pets mouth without any negative reaction using your method? OR do you *always have to "Trade"* when you want to take something out of your own dogs mouth?

Just curious as to how your "Trading" method works and how long it will take to teach a dog that he may not growl or snap at any family member for taking something away from him/her??????????????????


----------



## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :rofl: No, you definitely do NOT know my dog, lol! And no, I didn't have to say please, and if she hadn't let go immediately *I would have stood there holding onto it until she did*. I don't just go around routinely taking toys out of my dogs mouths, not because that would be "rude", but because it's silly and unnecessary. But she likes this game and often initiates it herself, so sometimes I play it with her, which she finds amusing. Since this is a game, (not to be confused with the "give" command, which is not optional) she doesn't HAVE to give it to me if she doesn't want to, but she *always does*. I put my hand on it, ask her if I can have it, and she lets go. I tell her "thank you!", wait for her to give me eye contact, and then give it back to her. She doesn't say "no" because I've *trained her that there's no reason not to let me have what I ask for*.


That is great! Heh! Heh! Heh!


----------



## Jax08

codmaster said:


> Still the question still remains - What if the "Higher value (in your mind!) is not "Better" in your dog's mind?????????? HHHMMMMMMM!


.
Then you find something that IS higher value in the dogs mind.  That's not that hard to figure out. Higher value for Jax is a toy over food. So she releases the food, she gets her toy.

I think everyone is over thinking things and looking for issues in other people's training methods.


----------



## msvette2u

Cod, you just want to argue. 
Recognizing that fact, I'll reiterate --



> IF YOUR DOG HAS PROBLEMS GO BACK A STEP, or two.


Just as Cassidy's Mom showed, your dog continues the training process until when you say "Can I have that", they are willing to give it up. * Taking things from them is no longer a negative experience for them. *


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jax08 said:


> .
> Then you find something that IS higher value in the dogs mind.  That's not that hard to figure out. Higher value for Jax is a toy over food. So she releases the food, she gets her toy.
> 
> I think everyone is over thinking things and looking for issues in other people's training methods.


I think his point is what then if you want the toy. What is higher value than the toy etc... etc...

Simply put I don't think people like the inference that their preferred training method sucks.
That happens when people say, if you do such and such your dog will become aggressive or some such thing.

Before all the new methods I raised dogs with nothing more than a choke collar and common sense. I didn't treat them harshly. They were all well behaved and weren't afraid of me. 
I'm using Michael Ellis method with my puppy so I'm not against new. Just don't try to imply that what we all did to one degree or another in the past was bad. Not good vs bad just different.


----------



## codmaster

shepherdmom said:


> I've got news for you kids do not think like humans either. We are all animals. Reward bad behavior it keeps happening. Seperating the dog while he eats will not fix the problem. You do it your way I'll do it mine. My way works! Hope *some kid doesn't accidently come into the room when your dog has his steak.*


 
Exactly!

Unless the kid has a "better" steak maybe?


----------



## Shaina

Personally , if my dog is being a punk, I will just take it. "Out." She refuses, "NO, OUT", put some pressure on her jaws and take it. Once I get it, "Good out!" and then Ill give it back (assuming she has a bone/toy, not something dangerous.. in that case, good out, yayyyy and we'll proceed to finding a safe toy.) She can be snappy with my other dog and her bone, so if she does that, same thing.. "NO, out platz!" and then I make her hold the position, then release her and give her back her item.

I think the issue is that some handlers are nervous to physically TAKE something, therefore won't because they think their dog may bite them. My dog bites me, smack on the nose and into your crate you go lmao. I try to balance my physical corrections with positive techniques, and though some may not agree with it, I do what works for MY individual dog.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

If you have to always trade, then your dog isn't trained. The whole point of this exercise is TRAINING. So no, the properly trained dog does not need to always get something in return. How long that takes depends on the dog and the skill of the trainer. Does anyone expect people to predict exactly how long it would take for them to train their dog to down or heel on cue? Of course not. So sorry, "it depends" is about as specific as anyone can be. 

When I do my "silly trading games"  I like to use something that the dog and I can hold onto together at first, so they don't have the option of not giving it up. It's mine - I possess it, and I'm choosing to share it with the dog, the dog doesn't possess it and get to decide whether or not they want to let me have it back. A tug toy is perfect for this, teaching the out and leave it. I like to add in a sit and eye contact before giving it back. 

To teach the out (I use "give") I'll use a treat at first but only as long as absolutely necessary. If my puppy will chase a ball and bring it back I still need to teach them to give it up on cue, and a treat held right up to the nose has never failed me. It doesn't take long for the dog to learn that that "give" means to drop the ball, and that giving up the ball means that it gets thrown again. Letting go of the tug means we get to tug some more. The reward is the continuation of play. 

I do it with toys, with balls, and with bones. Let go of the bone and you get the bone back. Let go of the bone and I'll throw a ball for you. Let go of the tug and you get a treat AND we tug again. This is foundation training, I practice routinely for a few minutes a day, several times a day for the first few months after I get a new puppy. 

Halo has probably been the worst dog in my 25 years of owning GSDs about stealing things she's not supposed to have - eyeglasses, potholders and kitchen towels, paper towels, bills and receipts, TV remotes, a box of earplugs, kitchen knives (yes, really!), and I've never had any trouble taking them away, and she doesn't get anything in return besides a "good girl". 

She actually brings me her bones to hold for her while she chews them:


----------



## Jack's Dad

codmaster said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Unless the kid has a "better" steak maybe?



What if the kid is a higher value treat than the steak?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

shepherdmom said:


> Hope some kid doesn't accidently come into the room when your dog has his steak.


I don't have kids, but I sometimes sit on the floor and pet them while they're eating a bully stick, which is the equivalent of steak in their lives, and I often give them a pat on the side while they're eating a meal. :shrug:


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> I think his point is what then if you want the toy. What is higher value than the toy etc... etc...



The game of 'trading up' is *training*. You don't wait until a trial to teach your dog to sit, do you? So you don't wait until there is a problem to teach your dog that giving you things = good things for them. This is training.

Way over thinking this and looking for issues.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Jax08 said:


> The game of 'trading up' is *training*. You don't wait until a trial to teach your dog to sit, do you? So you don't wait until there is a problem to teach your dog that giving you things = good things for them. This is training.
> 
> Way over thinking this and looking for issues.


Not sure why people keep ignoring this point. :thinking: Maybe they just like to argue.


----------



## msvette2u

Jack's Dad said:


> Just don't try to imply that what we all did to one degree or another in the past was bad. Not good vs bad just different.


At least one person on here belittling "newfangled training methods" has put dogs to sleep even after one day of ownership for biting.
Something wasn't working! 
As others said, we would like to figure out how to save them and not just blanket euthanize them.
And people come on here daily seeking new/improved methods of training whatever, because the way they are doing it _isn't working. _

And yeah. Just for the sake of argument :shrug:


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> Just don't try to imply that what we all did to one degree or another in the past was bad. Not good vs bad just different.


And where exactly did I do that? How about don't try to imply that I said something that I didn't.


----------



## RocketDog

Jax08 said:


> The game of 'trading up' is *training*. You don't wait until a trial to teach your dog to sit, do you? So you don't wait until there is a problem to teach your dog that giving you things = good things for them. This is training.
> 
> Way over thinking this and looking for issues.



Exactly, as so many have succinctly pointed out. 

I did the trading game with Rocket from the day I brought him home. I also stuck my hand in his food bowl with some awesome treat (sardines, anyone?) and let him lick it out of it with my hand in there--stuff like that. Occasionally I would pick it up just for a second (not very often, but once in a while) and leave something like stinky cheese in it. He never once has had ANY TYPE OF GROWLING ISSUE AT ALL. I guess I quit doing it when he was about 4 months or so--I still some times ask him to bring me his bully stick, or whatever, and he gets a raw beef bone almost every day. I can reach down and pick it up and he couldn't care less. I have to usually, because I make him eat it on an old sheet and he wriggles his way off in the course of his heavenly chew. My children also do this for me. 

I don't see the problem with the trading game. It worked fine for me, and I almost never have any thing to "trade" now. I don't need to. 

Cassidy's mom, I also "hold" his bully's for him when they get down to about 4 inches...I just can't bear to waste them, so I'll sit next to him and hold it while I read. When I'm done, I say so and I stand up and walk away and throw the rest in the garbage. Rocket just lays there, then usually goes to sleep. :wild:


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## Jack's Dad

Jax08 said:


> And where exactly did I do that? How about don't try to imply that I said something that I didn't.


You didn't. Some people do on these type of threads.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> At least one person on here belittling "newfangled training methods" has put dogs to sleep even after one day of ownership for biting.
> Something wasn't working!
> As others said, we would like to figure out how to save them and not just blanket euthanize them.
> And people come on here daily seeking new/improved methods of training whatever, because the way they are doing it _isn't working. _
> 
> And yeah. Just for the sake of argument :shrug:


Know one knows what goes on in peoples homes. If the dog is growling it could just be leadership issues and have nothing to do with any type of training. It could be genetics or any number of other things.

I also don't think the type of training is rocket science. It's basically Pavlov and operant conditioning.

As far as the sake of argument issue, I came to this thread after a number of you had already been at it for some time. So if anyone is concerned about arguing, check on how many back and forth posts and who the individuals were before I interjected my two cents worth.

Also the OP was asking about an issue that has already occured and what to do about it not how to train a puppy.


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## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> If you will look back through the posts I said. "If you train a pup right when they are young take it away and give it back take it away and give it back before there is a growling issue they are going to know they will always get it back this is training not teasing, but if you let them get away with bad behavior once they will constantly push your boundaries. You have to be consistent."
> 
> The Grandam lady also said it "I will still do it the old way, when a puppy comes into my home, they start at day one learning, but not FEARING, that I can put my hand in the bowl while eating, I can take a toy away, I can take a bone away"
> You have to do it regularly and you have to be consistant. From day one that puppy has to know it is your house your rules. Tried and true. It has worked for many of us old timers. Love, boundries, and rules. Nothing is free puuppies have to earn their position and status... No bargining, no treats, and trade ups. The treat is your affection your attention. Occasionally a real treat slipped in. *Time out is the kennel and if a puppy bites yelp if it does it again bite him back*. From day one puppy has to know you are the boss and you will protect him. As puppy grows he will return that love an affection and protection 100 fold. Even with an adult dog, we took in a 5 + year old Rescue Akita. From day one he was shown love an affection. He was also taught we could take anything and then we would give it back. Right away while he was still new and before he got comfy with us and decided to be grumpy about it. It was a game and he learned right away. He got a home, protection and a full belly in return we got unconditional love, protection and a family member.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: OMG I'm seriously dieing over here at this one... come borrow Jinx for a bit maybe she'll help you see other methods. If you yiped now or when she was 10 weeks old you're getting nailed harder its just that simple... you bite her and well...... you'll probably regret that decision more then she did. She's a rough girl very physical and has no problem using brute strength for EVERYTHING no matter if its play or getting stuck in something. Don't get me wrong she is phenomenal and super smart and does not do things out of "meanness" however the more physical you get she's going to up hers to match you she does NOT back off from anything physical thats just her personality you are not going to ever take it out of her so learning other methods is where its at. When teaching her something new she gets treats (working on using toys) after she's learned it treats are phased out. If she has something I want she has been taught just to give it up not because shes afraid of the consequences but because she trusts me and knows I'm not gonna be grimey about something. There are plenty of times she will have something and I don't know what it is I say "Jinx let me see" she will bring it over and set it in my hand if it's something she shouldn't have I take it and tell her go play if it's something she can have I hand it back to her tell her "ok" and let her continue on her merry little way. She's raw fed i can grab her bowl in the middle of her eating and take it away either to check something out or to add to it or whatever I feel like doing because she was TAUGHT when she was younger. 

if shes playing to rough if you get rougher or try to physically stop her you're going to end up getting hurt its plain and simple.. however simply tell her "enough" or "all done" and she's going to stop on a dime and walk away to go play on her own. To me Jinx is actually a rather simple dog but not for everyone because you can't have a "cookie cutter" method of training with her and if you do you're gonna regret it plain and simple. A correction to ignoring a command and not playing? she's going to look at you like you're stupid or like a soft breeze just went by however re-engage her and she's perfect without needing a treat or toy because she loves to work WITH me. I may be young but I'm also smart enough to realize there is no single way to do something those of you that are argueing one specific way I would love to see you with a stronger dog.. you may have had one you thought was a harder dog but obviously have not met "THE" dog that wasn't going to handle your methods. 

again I'm not saying trade up always works or you always do it it's just one of the many things you CAN do to help if it doesn't then try something else it's that simple.

Codmaster- you seem to just want to fight if you read my other posts you would see I answered your question a few times (if you don't I don't fully blame you I'm a long winded person lol) You don't play the trade game with high value items so it's not really an issue. There are a few answers though (IMO) the dog should be taught an "out" command already in teaching the "out" if the dog doesn't comply you simply remove it from their mouth and then praise then with "yes good out" then give the item back until the dog learns the out command. You teach the dog early on that it's ok for you to take things because you bring yummy things and you're not bad and some other things... if the dog has already been taught these things and chose it didn't want to give the item up then by all means you go and forcibly remove it from the dogs mouth.. simple as that. Again YOU remove it and then its done you don't bring the entire family (consisting of multiple children) in to further hound the dog and create more issues.... in what world human or animal is it ok for every single person in the group to chastise a person for doing wrong? If a child misbehaves mom or dad disciplines not mom dad brother sister cousin etc... If a wolf screws up alpha corrects it not everyone in the pack including the lower ranking members. How many times do you think the dog is going to take being reprimanded before it gets fed up and lashes out? Kind of common sense on that one, dog screwed up once dog gets corrected once. 

The biggest thing everyone is trying to say no matter the method is you have to teach the dog a behavior before doing any correction you can't beat the dog when he pees in the house when you first bring him home he has no clue what hes doing he just knows he has to pee if you have to show him outside it where he needs to go. People just need to stop focusing on ONLY the trading method when many many MANY people have said it's just one of many methods used in the BEGINNING phases of TEACHING then after they learn what you're after then you bring in other methods dependent upon the situation. 

In the OPs situation theres not much more high value and now is not the time to do a trade in this situation you leave the goodies out until you get a handle on the behavior. If you do give in and give something extra yummy you put them in their crate them leave them alone for now because you haven't taught the dog not to guard his item and if you trade now theres a good chance you will reward the bad behavior by either letting the dog get away with it or trying to give another yummy item.


----------



## Holmeshx2

OH OH OH!!!! As I finished typing the last response the PERFECT example just happened.

When Jinx was a pup we "traded" not so much higher value vs lower value but appropriate vs inappropriate. If she had a shoe as a pup we would go over and take it out of her mouth then put one of her toys in her mouth. She didn't have the choice to trade it however we did give her something back because if every time a pup has something they shouldn't have you walk over and take it THATS how resource guarding happens (not exclusively but a good way to cause it) The pup learns you approaching them means they lose their item. I'm not going to bribe her for an item however I will give her something she should have so she learns appropriate chewing items and learns me approaching her isn't bad. She was taught this as a pup and now I don't trade her things because she knows what is and is not allowed. 

However, just now, her and the foster pup were rough housing and I look over to see they somehow got one of my daughter's socks and were playing tug o war with it.. obviously not an acceptable thing I simply said (in a normal voice) "Jinx bring" and held my hand out. Jinx took the sock from the puppy brought it to me and placed it in my hand. After taking it she waited a second to see if I would give it back to her and I told her "go play" and she happily trotted back to the puppy grabbed a care bear and started wrestling again. There was no negotiating, , no trading, no "ill feelings," no forcing, no chasing, no anything she brought it to me and immediately spit it out directly in my hand.


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## GregK

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Really, somebody please shoot me if I ever decide that I've learned everything I'll ever need to know about dog training, that the "old" tried and true ways are good enough and I don't need to know anything more.


yeah, me too!


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## msvette2u

Jack's Dad said:


> Also the OP was asking about an issue that has already occured and what to do about it not how to train a puppy.


While the methods described are good to use on puppies, the OP can use them now, the dog is only 8mos. of age.
Not to mention, they can be used on dogs of any age.


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## BlackPuppy

My dogs are not allowed to resource guard, and reinforce it whether its with another dog or myself. 

When it's myself, I don't hesitate, I give a stern "NO!", and take it away. Assuming that was my goal in the first place. If I give them something, then its because I want them to have it. Sometimes, when I feed my dogs, I'll pat their butts as I walk away, but never by their heads. I don't want them to feel insecure about their meals. 

My dogs are also not allowed to steal from each other. In that case, I intervene and remove the item from the thief and return to the owner. If one dog is hovering over another dog that is eating, I put my body between the two dogs and tell the dog "NO".


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## msvette2u

Holmeshx2 said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: OMG I'm seriously dieing over here at this one... come borrow Jinx for a bit maybe she'll help you see other methods. If you yiped now or when she was 10 weeks old you're getting nailed harder its just that simple... you bite her and well...... you'll probably regret that decision more then she did.


Yeah I kinda chuckled there too...if a puppy won't stop biting me, I use a rope and engage it with a tug-of-war game. 
Or if that isn't appropriate at the time, I have stuck their own paw in their mouth, they'll clamp down on that, and see it hurts.


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## msvette2u

BlackPuppy said:


> Sometimes, when I feed my dogs, I'll pat their butts as I walk away, but never by their heads. I don't want them to feel insecure about their meals.



Good post. The problem with fiddling with their meals (without adding something better to the meal, as others mentioned, sardines and the like) is that they do then feel very insecure and you get more guarding behavior, not less.
When they don't feel threatened (by someone taking their meal and giving it back, etc.) they relax and don't feel the need to start guarding. 
It's Dog 101.


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## Shaina

I've always handled my pups food, hand fed her at times, mixed it up.. I touched her while she ate, I pet her, loved on her, picked up her feet, kissed her... I've never had an issue with resource guarding. I could easily stick my face IN her bowl while she is eating and she wouldn't respond to it, she'd just keep eating. I don't think handling food necessarily causes resource guarding. My dog KNOWS that if I am messing with her treats, food, bones, etc, it does NOT mean I am about to take it.

Not saying this is what you should do with a dog, but I wanted my dog to tolerate my handling her food from day one, and I did that to the extreme. I did not, however, EVER take her food from her just to prove a point (or at all, really.)


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## GregK

The rule in my house is:

*You don't mess with my food and I won't mess with yours. *


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## Shaina

I guess in my house it becomes "whoever licks it first owns it". LOL.. kidding. I do crate my pup to eat, and man she will charge ANY of our dogs that come up to said crate, and I don't correct her for that. With me, however, I expect a level of understanding that I am not here to steal your meal, so I will train how I feel necessary. 

I'm trying to train her to do the same, the sneaky brat! QUIT TOUCHING MY FOOD! She lets me know that MY tacos may not just be MY tacos, if I happen to look the other way......


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## Holmeshx2

Shaina said:


> I guess in my house it becomes *"whoever licks it first owns it*". LOL.. kidding. I do crate my pup to eat, and man *she will charge ANY of our dogs that come up to said crate, and I don't correct her for that*. With me, however, I expect a level of understanding that I am not here to steal your meal, so I will train how I feel necessary.
> *
> I'm trying to train her to do the same, the sneaky brat! QUIT TOUCHING MY FOOD! She lets me know that MY tacos may not just be MY tacos, if I happen to look the other way...... *


LOL the first and last part cracked me up! Jinx was pretty good about not taking stuff however this foster pup is exactly like this.. you blink and theres a chance your food isn't gonna be yours anymore. Shes also a resource guarder with other dogs but not people. I DO NOT allow the lunging at the crate thing and she gets a very stern "NO" I don't allow Jinx to mess around near the crate either its a balancing act between the 2 however there will not always be a barrier and that sort of reaction is simply unacceptable.



BlackPuppy said:


> My dogs are not allowed to resource guard, and reinforce it whether its with another dog or myself.
> 
> When it's myself, I don't hesitate, I give a stern "NO!", and take it away. Assuming that was my goal in the first place. If I give them something, then its because I want them to have it. Sometimes, when I feed my dogs, I'll pat their butts as I walk away, but never by their heads. I don't want them to feel insecure about their meals.
> 
> *My dogs are also not allowed to steal from each other. In that case, I intervene and remove the item from the thief and return to the owner. If one dog is hovering over another dog that is eating, I put my body between the two dogs and tell the dog "NO"*.


I do the exact same thing. If an item happens to get stolen you are still not allowed to act like a fool and attack the other dog it is my place to correct not the dog's. They are going to walk around each other, however, lingering is not allowed and I will make the other dog move away. If a head is going towards the other dogs item I will either step between or grab around the chest and physically turn away and tell the dog "NO, LEAVE IT" very stern. If the sneaky little bugger happens to steal something I don't give any command I calmly walk over remove from the mouth and hand back to the original "owner" I don't allow guarding towards me and certainly not towards the other dogs same as I don't mess with them while they have something i don't allow other dogs to mess with each other when they have something.



GregK said:


> The rule in my house is:
> 
> *You don't mess with my food and I won't mess with yours. *


Pretty much same thing here... leave me alone I'll leave you alone... however I have been known to retaliate when shes being a brat :blush: lol sorry but turn around is fair play sometimes.


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## JakodaCD OA

> [/I've got news for you kids do not think like humans either. We are all animals. Reward bad behavior it keeps happening. Seperating the dog while he eats will not fix the problem. You do it your way I'll do it mine. My way works! Hope some kid doesn't accidently come into the room when your dog has his steak.QUOTE]
> 
> To respond to the above which was many pages ago, (I had to work today
> 
> I don't have a bunch of dogs who resource guard, I have dogs who will 'drop' whatever I tell them to drop. So if a kid came in the room, most likely they could take that steak out of their mouths if I allowed something like that to go on but I dont.
> 
> My male aussie IS a big time growler, he has a bone, he's gonna growl, so maybe he is resource guarding, but anyone can walk up and take it out of his mouth with no consequences..he's a big mouth bluffing punk.
> 
> But I'm with Greg, they don't mess with my food, I don't mess with theirs It's just kinda mutual respect around here when it comes to food.


----------



## Emoore

> I've got news for you kids do not think like humans either.


That's because kids are not humans and should not be treated as such. I'm reasonably certain an 8 year old GSD is more of a human than an 8 year old kid.


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## Shaina

Holmeshx2 said:


> I DO NOT allow the lunging at the crate thing and she gets a very stern "NO" I don't allow Jinx to mess around near the crate either its a balancing act between the 2 however there will not always be a barrier and that sort of reaction is simply unacceptable.



I think it's more been one of my lazy areas to train than anything else. Her crate is literally IN my closet, in the back, so I kinda figure that is her domain and really, the other dogs shouldn't be hovering around her crate when she is eating anyways. I'm not sure how she would react without a barrier, but I've never tried. I feel that a dog deserves to have a safe place to eat their meals and not have to worry about getting it stolen from them, so I have always fed my dogs separately. I know that with treats, bones, etc, 99% of the time I don't get any growling or snapping. I may kick myself for saying it, but I don't think I'll have many issues with that.

She pretty much responds with the charging ANY time a dog comes near her crate, food in it or not, so I think it is more of a territorial thing than anything else. Sorry for going so off topic LOL


----------



## Jack's Dad

I mess with my puppies food intermittantly. I did it with Jack too.
Up until they are weaned their mother does whatever she wants to. If she wants to turn around she does. if she tires of ones location she moves them etc..
To me messing with their food as a puppy is a continuation of what mom does. It is a way of training them that their owner and humans are not a threat. I pet her and rub her feet while she is eating. It is training that people are safe around them even when they are eating.
Jack is five years old and I haven't messed with his food in years but I'm going to tonight. That's how I train not to resource guard food. It's worked for many decades for me so I have no reason to change. My puppy Zena eats so fast that to take time out to growl or get into it with me is a waste of eating time.
I don't have issue with other peoples methods. If it works for you keep it up until it doesn't. If my method ever quits working for me then I'll try something else.
Just for clarity most of the time I put their food down and leave and once they have learned people are no threat I've never had a problem.


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## Emoore

Everyone in this thread who has children, I have an assignment for you:

This evening, or the next time your kid is playing playstation/Nintendo DS/texting friends on iphone/etc. . . go up and start messing with him/her the way you'd mess with a puppy. Pat the kid on the head. Rub his/her arm. Take the controller away and then give it back.

Report back to us with your results.


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## Shaina

LOL Emoore... good thing I don't have kids, because if the kid bit me, it'd be a pop on the nose and immediately to its crate - errr, room?


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## shepherdmom

Emoore said:


> That's because kids are not humans and should not be treated as such. I'm reasonably certain an 8 year old GSD is more of a human than an 8 year old kid.


:spittingcoffee: True that.


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> Good post. The problem with fiddling with their meals (without adding something better to the meal, as others mentioned, sardines and the like) is that they do then feel very insecure and you get more guarding behavior, not less.
> When they don't feel threatened (by someone taking their meal and giving it back, etc.) they relax and don't feel the need to start guarding.
> It's Dog 101.


I have never had more guarding behavior from fiddling with their meal ever.


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## Jax08

Don't you guys get bored with arguing the same point over and over and over for HOURS?


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## Jax08

Emoore said:


> Everyone in this thread who has children, I have an assignment for you:
> 
> This evening, or the next time your kid is playing playstation/Nintendo DS/texting friends on iphone/etc. . . go up and start messing with him/her the way you'd mess with a puppy. Pat the kid on the head. Rub his/her arm. Take the controller away and then give it back.
> 
> Report back to us with your results.



yeah...uhhhh...no!

She's 16, bigger than me and could tie me up in the play station controller.


----------



## GregK

Jax08 said:


> Don't you guys get bored with arguing the same point over and over and over for HOURS?


well you're still here, aren't ya?


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## Jack's Dad

Emoore said:


> Everyone in this thread who has children, I have an assignment for you:
> 
> This evening, or the next time your kid is playing playstation/Nintendo DS/texting friends on iphone/etc. . . go up and start messing with him/her the way you'd mess with a puppy. Pat the kid on the head. Rub his/her arm. Take the controller away and then give it back.
> 
> Report back to us with your results.


Well my daughters are older than you emoore and my son is younger but an adult. You better believe that when they were kids if I wanted the TV off or music turned down I'd do it or tell them to and they better do it.
They are all successful and so far no divorces and none of them are institutionalized from having rules and swift reinforcement of those rules.
Must of been just lucky.


----------



## Jax08

I am! Cuz I couldn't believe the thread was still going...and then couldn't believe the same ppl were still arguing the same points! :rofl:


----------



## GregK

Jax08 said:


> I am! Cuz I couldn't believe the thread was still going...and then couldn't believe the same ppl were still arguing the same points! :rofl:


The thread is so long I forget what I wrote when it first started.  :thinking:


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## Jax08

I was arguing about toilet paper at one point! Were you a pull from the top or pull from the bottom person?


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## Emoore

JacksDad, you are exempt because your children are old enough to have brains. 


Although I'm sure none of them ever rolled their eyes at you and said, "_daaaAAAAAAAaaaaaad!_" which of course is the equivalent of growling in teenage-speak.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Emoore said:


> JacksDad, you are exempt because your children are old enough to have brains.
> 
> 
> Although I'm sure none of them ever rolled their eyes at you and said, "_daaaAAAAAAAaaaaaad!_" which of course is the equivalent of growling in teenage-speak.


Oh they did that. I'm sure they said some worse things under their breath and to each other but tough times and love won out in the long run. I can't say anything about when they actually began to use their brains because I was about thirty before my brain and a little maturity began to show. I'm still working on it.


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## Emoore

Jack's Dad said:


> I was about thirty before my brain and a little maturity began to show. I'm still working on it.


Don't ever grow up completely. That's just no fun. :crazy:


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## Jack's Dad

I think this thread has driven Jax08 to drinking.


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## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> I think this thread has driven Jax08 to drinking.


I don't drink...much...


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## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: OMG I'm seriously dieing over here at this one... come borrow Jinx for a bit maybe she'll help you see other methods. If you yiped now or when she was 10 weeks old you're getting nailed harder its just that simple... you bite her and well...... you'll probably regret that decision more then she did.


You absolutely wouldn't want me to borrow Jinx. 

I've had shepherds for over 25 years and have never had one that would nail me. I've also had Akita's and Great Danes and mutts. Never ever had one of my dogs intentionally bite me. Nip when playing by accident yes but a real all out and out bite no. That is simply not allowed. If my dog ever did that, they would be taken outside and shot. There is no other method or working with that kind of behavior. Much as I love my dogs and as much as it would destroy me to do it, a dog with that kind of personality would not be tolerated in my house. I have too many people in and out. When I was little I was the safe house where all the kids would hang out. Girl Scout leader, swim coach, soccer mom, softball mom, etc... Even though my kids are grown their friends still stop by and walk right in to my kitchen and head for the cookie jar. I've got 5 acres of rabbits, gophers and lizzards for my dogs to chase, human agression, and resource guarding is just not allowed.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Jack's Dad said:


> I think this thread has driven Jax08 to drinking.


You say that like it's a bad thing, lol! :toasting:


----------



## Jack's Dad

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing, lol! :toasting:


:toasting:Cheers.

Seriously I hope the OP gets help no matter what method is used.


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> You absolutely wouldn't want me to borrow Jinx.
> 
> I've had shepherds for over 25 years and have never had one that would nail me. I've also had Akita's and Great Danes and mutts. Never ever had one of my dogs intentionally bite me. Nip when playing by accident yes but a real all out and out bite no. That is simply not allowed. If my dog ever did that, they would be taken outside and shot. There is no other method or working with that kind of behavior. Much as I love my dogs and as much as it would destroy me to do it, a dog with that kind of personality would not be tolerated in my house. I have too many people in and out. When I was little I was the safe house where all the kids would hang out. Girl Scout leader, swim coach, soccer mom, softball mom, etc... Even though my kids are grown their friends still stop by and walk right in to my kitchen and head for the cookie jar. I've got 5 acres of rabbits, gophers and lizzards for my dogs to chase, human agression, and resource guarding is just not allowed.


Amazing what comes out when people talk long enough. So if you had a dog with aggression issues because YOUR training method was "gulp" WRONG instead of opening your mind to another training method you would kill the dog? hmmm kind of hard to stay strong into your method is best then isn't it? Also as far as Jinx goes she does not and has never bitten aggressively. I trust her in any situation with any person she is not aggressive but she also does not back down from physical correction to her it becomes a game and yes she is going to get rougher but its not aggressive. It's like a shouting match with a kid at what point do you use YOUR brain and stop getting louder and just de-escalate the situation and act like the mature adult (or human) 

I love the fact (not really) that the few people staying so head strong to their methods and saying anyone who does something different is wrong and its their way they FORCE the dog to do everything they want no questions asked would kill a dog when confronted with a difficult dog that doesn't conform to their life. 

Now if the dog was truly aggressive and no matter how much training you tried you couldn't work with the dog then I'm fine HUMANELY euthanizing it but saying theres only one way and thats your way and the dog has to pay the ultimate price because someone is too hard headed and has too much pride to learn there is more then just red in the rainbow is pretty darn narcissistic in my book.


----------



## GSD07

shepherdmom said:


> You absolutely wouldn't want me to borrow Jinx.


 No kidding... Poor Jinx would be shot at 10 weeks of age.


----------



## Holmeshx2

Jack's Dad said:


> :toasting:Cheers.
> 
> Seriously I hope the OP gets help no matter what method is used.


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Holmeshx2

GSD07 said:


> No kidding... Poor Jinx would be shot at 10 weeks of age.


See thats the thing shes NOT aggressive shes really not (and no its not me being blind or jaded) she is rather well rounded shes just a harder dog that could care less about physical correction. If she gets too rough in play and you try to physically correct her shes going to come back harder each time... if you physically correct her for not listening or something similar she will look t you like you're an idiot... If you do a physical correction for her not listening shes not going to come over and nail you or anything.

She's just a dog that needs a FAIR leader because trying to bully your way through her training would never have worked (even at 10 weeks) thankfully I can get her to do anything I want its a mutual partnership. Of course I have to admit there have been days the taking out to the back 40 MAY have briefly entered my mind.. or taking myself out there lmao.

I take this girl to the store and someone will jump out from behind an isle and leap on her wrapping their body around her in a full bear hug and she will just give them a kiss and let them hug on her she is rather bomb proof and while I don't prefer people do this I also am not on guard freaking out because I know she handles it well. She has been mobbed by an entire group (around 30) of school kids completely surrounding her all fighting to reach over top of each other to pet "the police dog" and she just sat there licking hands as they came over top of her head. I watch her body to see if she starts getting edgy but she handles it all in stride.

Get her in a higher state of drive and do anything physical it's going to ramp her up like crazy... she's not going to respond to it or view it as a correction its just not her and *I'm not so hard headed that I will refuse to tailor my training methods to suit an individual dog's needs.*

If the more positive methods didn't work with her then I would have gladly changed them to whatever got HER to respond the best... I'll repeat again for those that don't read all the way through respond THE BEST!! 

Can you get a dog to comply using certain methods? Of course but will they work to their fullest potential and the best under those methods? Not always.. its not so much about just compliance as it is using the BEST method for EACH INDIVIDUAL DOG


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> You absolutely wouldn't want me to borrow Jinx.
> 
> I've had shepherds for over 25 years and have never had one that would nail me. I've also had Akita's and Great Danes and mutts. Never ever had one of my dogs intentionally bite me. Nip when playing by accident yes but a real all out and out bite no. That is simply not allowed. * If my dog ever did that, they would be taken outside and shot.* There is no other method or working with that kind of behavior.


Wow...glad you've never had a problem dog. Please make sure you share that tidbit with any rescues and shelters you apply to adopt from.

I"m sure at this point, nobody would want you to 'borrow' their dog.


----------



## PaddyD

After nearly 200 posts, I see that the OP skipped town before number 10.
Probably dozed off when she saw that it was no longer hers.


----------



## chelle

Holy crap, Batman -- pass me the bottle, please!

I thought it was more interesting to discuss which way you put the tp on the roll. I mean, heck that's cut and dried and easy. If you pull it from the top, you are wrong.

Ehh, I dunno, but any "training method" that is so strict as to not allow alternative methods when needed seems pretty close minded. I see both sides of this thing. I've raised my dogs to allow me access to whatever they have. I touched, petted, whatever as they ate/chewed here and there. Never a problem... BUT when they got older and did display some snarky baloney, they did hear about it and I didn't worry about offering something for a trade, as they were adults by then. And you know, that's what it really comes down to -- conditioning them when they're young, so you don't have issues when they're older. 

That's boring. Let's talk about drinking and toilet paper!


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> Wow...glad you've never had a problem dog. Please make sure you share that tidbit with any rescues and shelters you apply to adopt from.
> 
> I"m sure at this point, nobody would want you to 'borrow' their dog.


Actually I'm sure a lot of people would. People like well behaved people friendly dogs. Any dog I have raised could go into another home with people and kids and they would not have a problem. 

However, I no longer plan to adopt from a rescue. Not if they are filled with clueless people who think it is ok for a dog to bite a human. That is my line in the sand. The rescues years ago would check a dog for temperment and would never ever take a dog that would attack people. A dog that bites was immediately PTS. 

Funny what got me started on this forum was a problem dog, I drove her over 1400 miles round trip so she wouldn't be put in the position where she would bite a human. I hope there are still breeders out there who breed for good temperment.


----------



## Jax08

chelle said:


> Holy crap, Batman -- pass me the bottle, please!
> 
> I thought it was more interesting to discuss which way you put the tp on the roll. I mean, heck that's cut and dried and easy. If you pull it from the top, you are wrong.
> ......
> 
> Let's talk about drinking and toilet paper!


I agree! Much better conversation than to talk about shooting dogs that failed a tried and true training method! 

I have Bailey's! Want some of that?! Some Captain around here somewhere too!


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> Not if they are filled with clueless people who think it is ok for a dog to bite a human. That is my line in the sand. The rescues years ago would check a dog for temperment and would never ever take a dog that would attack people. A dog that bites was immediately PTS.
> .


Way to put some words in people's mouths and run down rescues. You just keep getting better and better.


----------



## PaddyD

It's Friday night. Bailey's and Captain on ice over here please.
New drink B&C on the rocks.


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> I think this thread has driven Jax08 to drinking.



ok....now it has...


----------



## Holmeshx2

again she doesn't ATTACK humans she does play rough though but to just do a "real" bite on a human?? nope, well maybe for Schutzhund training. She was bred by an amazing breeder for a phenomenal temperament. but if the dog decides to challenge you because your methods don't work on every dog and you just choose to kill it instead hopefully those good breeders see this.


----------



## shepherdmom

GSD07 said:


> No kidding... Poor Jinx would be shot at 10 weeks of age.


I seriously doubt it. It sounds to me like a weak handler has let that dog become ruler of the roost. As I've said I raise my dogs with love and kindness and they love me and I love them. A ten week old puppy is not going to attack a human unless it has been poorly bred.


----------



## selzer

Who's got the Siegram's, or Jim Beam would be ok.


----------



## Jax08

PaddyD said:


> It's Friday night. Bailey's and Captain on ice over here please.
> New drink B&C on the rocks.



hmmmm....try it and let me know how that tastes! I"m a White Russian drinker myself.


----------



## selzer

Jenna was mouthing my hand today, better take her out back...


----------



## Holmeshx2

PaddyD said:


> It's Friday night. Bailey's and Captain on ice over here please.
> New drink B&C on the rocks.


Not sure Baileys and Captain mixes?? 

Ohhh anyone have buttershots??? I'll gladly take that with some bailey's yummMM!!!!


----------



## Jax08

selzer said:


> Who's got the Siegram's, or Jim Beam would be ok.


Jess better bring those brownie's too.


----------



## Jax08

selzer said:


> Jenna was mouthing my hand today, better take her out back...


Jax will have to go with her.  She nailed me in the face when she was a baby and she chews on my hands in the morning and when I get home from work. Out back she goes....


----------



## Jax08

Holmeshx2 said:


> Not sure Baileys and Captain mixes??
> 
> Ohhh anyone have buttershots??? I'll gladly take that with some bailey's yummMM!!!!



Oatmeal Cookie Shots!! Bailey, Butterscotch Schnapps, Golden Schlaugher (sp?). Layer them in, burn off the GS, blow out the flame and mmmmm yummm yummm...warm oatmeal cookies!


----------



## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> again she doesn't ATTACK humans she does play rough though but to just do a "real" bite on a human?? nope, well maybe for Schutzhund training. She was bred by an amazing breeder for a phenomenal temperament. but if the dog decides to challenge you because your methods don't work on every dog and you just choose to kill it instead hopefully those good breeders see this.


I know the difference between play rough and a "real bite". Sounds to me like you are just full of excuses because your afraid of your dog.


----------



## chelle

Jax08 said:


> I agree! Much better conversation than to talk about shooting dogs that failed a tried and true training method!
> 
> *I have Bailey's! Want some of that?!* Some Captain around here somewhere too!


Do I want some? _Ahemmmm_ just where do you suppose my dog "Bailey" got his namesake? Hehehehe :rofl:



shepherdmom said:


> I seriously doubt it. It sounds to me like a weak handler has let that dog become ruler of the roost. As I've said I raise my dogs with love and kindness and they love me and I love them. A ten week old puppy is not going to attack a human unless it has been poorly bred.


Relax. Put your toilet paper on the roll the proper way and this will all work out ok.


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> I know the difference between play rough and a "real bite". Sounds to me like you are just full of excuses because your afraid of your dog.


I'm sorry. You are not invited to the party if you don't bring your own booze and all you want to do is fight and throw insults at people.

Bouncer?! Oh Bouncer!!! Please remove this person!


----------



## chelle

shepherdmom said:


> I know the difference between play rough and a "real bite". Sounds to me like you are just full of excuses because your afraid of your dog.


Speaking only for me, I am. Terrified.


----------



## msvette2u

I've never seen someone twist other's posts like this. My head is :crazy:

And I don't drink...but I got pizza and a movie. I'm sayin' g'bye to this thread (unless you want to talk about TP some more!)


----------



## Jax08

chelle said:


> Speaking only for me, I am. Terrified.


Why Grandma...what big ears you have...

Why Grandma...what big teeth you have...

Be afraid...be very, very afraid....where's my gun?


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> And I don't drink...but I got pizza and a movie. I'm sayin' g'bye to this thread (unless you want to talk about TP some more!)


Whoa! We need DD's!! How about a Shirley Temple?


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> I seriously doubt it. It sounds to me like a weak handler has let that dog become ruler of the roost. As I've said I raise my dogs with love and kindness and they love me and I love them. A ten week old puppy is not going to attack a human unless it has been poorly bred.


LOL I didnt see this post.. that made me chuckle... Again shes not poorly bred, I may not be the best handler (at least I admit it) but definitely not a weak handler she does NOT get to rule the roost but I'm also not going to beat her into submission when some simple training methods work just great and she didn't "attack" a human she was the very typical land shark that comes with GSDs and especially working lines... are you sure you have owned german shepherds? Just saying.. there have been reports of people claiming they have a 175 lb GSD and it was a st. bernard

Oh no the foster puppy just ran up and bit my arm while I'm laying on the couch.. need to take her out back I guess.


----------



## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> Whoa! We need DD's!! How about a Shirley Temple?


LOL Yah, well I could just drink Dr. (Pepper that is). And cheezy bread <)<)


----------



## msvette2u

Holmeshx2 said:


> Oh no the foster puppy just ran up and bit my arm while I'm laying on the couch.. need to take her out back I guess.


Well there's a cure for overpopulation I guess


----------



## Jax08

Oh Holmesshx2...why are you letting the sharpshooter bait you?


msvett2u....don't eat the brownies. If you do, you will definitely need the cheezy bread. So glad you are sticking around! Who else would put the TP on right once we are incapacitated?!


----------



## chelle

msvette2u said:


> I've never seen someone twist other's posts like this. My head is :crazy:
> 
> And I don't drink...but I got pizza and a movie. I'm sayin' g'bye to this thread (unless you want to talk about TP some more!)


Well, the TP was just a diversionary tactic. But I do like 2 ply. And I hate buying the stuff, knowing I'm wasting my money to do ... well... you know.

What movie didja get? I can't find any I'm too interested in right now.

I am somewhat sorry to be such a smartazz, but shepherdmom, telling folks they're "afraid" of their dog is... well... pretty silly. From what I have gathered of this forum, the majority are quite aware of just what their dogs are, what their dogs can do, how to handle their dogs.. and it works for them. It's pretty brazen to come in saying what you are -- especially the excuses/fear of their own dog thing. Then saying you could handle any dog -- any strange dog! - and bend it to your will. Very brazen, very arrogant, really. Perhaps you have overindulged in the creme yourself. I've been known to make some dumb posts when I've done the same.


----------



## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> Jenna was mouthing my hand today, better take her out back...


God this is so stupid. I said a dog that attacks humans is not tolerated. Not a dog that mouthes someones hand. However that dog that bit someones in the face would definately have been PTS at my house. You all are welcome to think what you like of me and I really don't care but it makes me sick that some of you are out there giving bad advice to people with problem dogs. When the problem dog kills a kid how are you going to feel then?


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> I know the difference between play rough and a "real bite". Sounds to me like you are just full of excuses because your afraid of your dog.


Where in ANY of my posts did I ever even hint that I may be afraid of my psycho ball of fur? Trust me the power this girl has if she were to ever 'real bite' me I wouldn't be typing.

Did I not say in NUMEROUS posts state that now as a young adult if she should choose not to listen to a command I will put my hand down her throat and take the item.. who in their right mind (not saying I am lol) would shove their hand through all those teeth if they were afraid of the dog. If I'm afraid of my dog why would I bring fosters with unknown background into my home and subject them to my poor leadership skills and my unstable aggressive dog...

Better yet if my dog is unstable, aggressive, in the hands of an incompetent, weak, fearful owner why in the heck has my breeder not come and taken the dog back? 

Again please repost anything I may have said that shows I'm afraid of my dog or heck repost any "excuses" that have been made.


----------



## chelle

Jax08 said:


> Who else would put the TP on right once we are incapacitated?!


Easy... I think she mentioned earlier it must roll off from the top. A TP dissident, we have here.


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> However that dog that bit someones in the face would definately have been PTS at my house.


You would have killed a 15 week old puppy? Impressive! Keep 'em comin', Sharpshooter. 

That same puppy that you have "taken out back and shot" has grown up to be instinctively gentle with toddlers. 

You are good entertainment.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

shepherdmom said:


> Actually I'm sure a lot of people would. People like well behaved people friendly dogs. Any dog I have raised could go into another home with people and kids and they would not have a problem.
> 
> *However, I no longer plan to adopt from a rescue. Not if they are filled with clueless people who think it is ok for a dog to bite a human. That is my line in the sand. The rescues years ago would check a dog for temperment and would never ever take a dog that would attack people. A dog that bites was immediately PTS. *
> 
> Funny what got me started on this forum was a problem dog, I drove her over 1400 miles round trip so she wouldn't be put in the position where she would bite a human. I hope there are still breeders out there who breed for good temperment.


Wow. As someone who volunteers for a rescue and a shelter I can tell none of is are clueless. In fact the rescue I am volunteering for is going to offer training courses for volunteers on dog and cat behavior and other courses related to dogs and cats. Also the shelter I volunteer for DOES in fact do temperament testing for dogs and cats that come in to determine what type of home it needs or if the dog has any issues at all they can determine if its medical or behavioral and do what they can to fix it.Also they encourage the volunteers to read up on dog and cat breeds and dog and cat behavior also we recently acquired a full time vet. NONE adopt out dogs that are human aggressive. People in GOOD rescues and shelters(there are bad ones) that are NOT clueless.

I get the notion that if no one else practices your training methods they are wrong and have a aggressive dog that is aggressive towards humans etc.



Jax08 said:


> Jess better bring those brownie's too.


Oh only certain people get them. You included Jax!


----------



## Shaina

Hold on.. are we still on topic at all? Because I don't recall this 8 month old puppy biting the child on the face, or being a potential child murderer. I thought we were talking about resource guarding? I sure hope we're not telling the OP to take her puppy out back.... *shivers*

I have yet to see a single person offer high value items for mauling people. 

Putting a dog to sleep would be the final option in my household. After training, exercise, medications, vet check up, channeling into a sport, etc... The needle would certainly NOT be the first option!

Anyways, cheers everyone


----------



## Jax08

chelle said:


> Easy... I think she mentioned earlier it must roll off from the top. A TP dissident, we have here.



S'okay...we outnumber her. i think we can tie her up with the TP while singing Kumbaya


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> God this is so stupid. I said a dog that attacks humans is not tolerated. Not a dog that mouthes someones hand. However that dog that bit someones in the face would definately have been PTS at my house. You all are welcome to think what you like of me and I really don't care but it makes me sick that *some of you are out there giving bad advice to people with problem dogs*. When the problem dog kills a kid how are you going to feel then?


How has anyone given bad advice? Different then yours.. yes.. bad.. no. However you would just kill the problem dog off so I really wouldn't take advice from someone who doesn't deal with the issue just gets rid of it.

I'm not sure which hypothetical dog is killing a kid at the moment however in the OPs case it would be her fault (yeah I know flame me for it I could care less) the dog growled at HER so she had all of her kids come and handle the dog and the dog lunged at her son... surely not gonna kill the dog for that one.


----------



## Jax08

Shaina said:


> Hold on.. are we still on topic at all? Because I don't recall this 8 month old puppy biting the child on the face, or being a potential child murderer.


She was referring to my dog, not the OP's. Some people feel the need to throw out comments like that so they can continue drama and fighting.

The topic is now alcohol and toilet paper. So...no...we are not on topic if it is the original topic.


----------



## Shaina

Jax08 said:


> She was referring to my dog, not the OP's. Some people feel the need to throw out comments like that so they can continue drama and fighting.
> 
> The topic is now alcohol and toilet paper. So...no...we are not on topic if it is the original topic.


I guess I missed your vicious baby killing dog amidst all the insanity. Carry on then, my toilet paper rolls from the top.

Matter of fact, my girl considers toilet paper a high value item. I think that will come in handy during any attempted violent acts from her.


----------



## chelle

Shaina said:


> Hold on.. are we still on topic at all?


No. Absolutely not. We've moved on to alcohol and toilet paper. Mostly.



Jax08 said:


> S'okay...we outnumber her. i think we can tie her up with the TP while singing Kumbaya


I sang the first verse and ran out.


----------



## Holmeshx2

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Wow. As someone who volunteers for a rescue and a shelter I can tell none of is are clueless. In fact the rescue I am volunteering for is going to offer training courses for volunteers on dog and cat behavior and other courses related to dogs and cats. Also the shelter I volunteer for DOES in fact do temperament testing for dogs and cats that come in to determine what type of home it needs or if the dog has any issues at all they can determine if its medical or behavioral and do what they can to fix it.Also they encourage the volunteers to read up on dog and cat breeds and dog and cat behavior also we recently acquired a full time vet. NONE adopt out dogs that are human aggressive. People in GOOD rescues and shelters(there are bad ones) that are NOT clueless.
> 
> I get the notion that if no one else practices your training methods they are wrong and have a aggressive dog that is aggressive towards humans etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh only certain people get them. You included Jax!


First, I may need some brownies... pretty pretty please.. this thread is taking its toll.. or maybe I'm just worn out from living in fear of the fluff ball lol.

way off topic but you mentioned taking classes for learning cat behavior.. Have any of you seen that cat whisperer show.. forget what it's called. I never laughed so hard in my life (well until tonight this thread provides me humor) The guy was upset because he kept offering "blinks" at the cat and the cat wouldn't return the blinks so it was a difficult case lmao.. Some of his stuff made sense but some cracked me up.

Now, i've kept quiet long enough on this toilet paper thing... Hubby never puts it on the roll its only me however has the gull to get on me about how it should be done a certain way (hmm maybe I should take him out back) now me personally I could care less and never knew people had a preference of how it was on the roll.


----------



## chelle

Shaina said:


> I guess I missed your vicious baby killing dog amidst all the insanity. *Carry on then, my toilet paper rolls from the top.*
> 
> Matter of fact, my girl considers toilet paper a high value item. I think that will come in handy during any attempted violent acts from her.


OH NO NO. Someone needs to start a poll. These top rolling toilet paper people... 

Years ago my two oldest thought toilet paper was a frikkin delicacy. I'm glad they're over it. What a mess.


----------



## Shaina

chelle said:


> OH NO NO. Someone needs to start a poll. These top rolling toilet paper people...
> 
> Years ago my two oldest thought toilet paper was a frikkin delicacy. I'm glad they're over it. What a mess.



When you say your two oldest, are you referring to children, or dogs? I am just a bit confused if we are talking about wiping or eating of said toilet paper.

I wonder if genetics play any factor in which way you place the roll. I think it's time to look up my pedigree....


----------



## Jax08

Holmeshx2 said:


> Now, i've kept quiet long enough on this toilet paper thing... Hubby never puts it on the roll its only me however has the gull to get on me about how it should be done a certain way (hmm maybe I should take him out back) now me personally I could care less and never knew people had a preference of how it was on the roll.


I have a confession to make. I'm a weak leader and afraid of the toilet paper and am just happy when someone changes the roll. But I'm still irritated when it doesn't roll from the bottom. I get the same feeling as when I get in a car and don't wear a seat belt...something is just off.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I get the notion that if no one else practices your training methods they are wrong and have a aggressive dog that is aggressive towards humans etc.


Wow you really get all that from my posts or do you get that from people twisting what I say and putting words in my mouth. I would never have lasted in 4-h obedience, helping with search and rescue or working for a vet all of which I have done if I was that kind of person. You all are attacking me so I'm attacking back, really what all do you all expect? Are you trying to force me to leave the forums? Cause if you all don't want me I'll be glad to go.


----------



## Jax08

Shaina said:


> I wonder if genetics play any factor in which way you place the roll. I think it's time to look up my pedigree....


I think it's related to whether your ring finger is longer than your index finger.


----------



## msvette2u

Top rolling is superior. If it were not, why would motels do it this way!??
And...if you roll from the bottom how do you get the roll to stop once it's going!?


----------



## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> How has anyone given bad advice? Different then yours.. yes.. bad.. no. However you would just kill the problem dog off so I really wouldn't take advice from someone who doesn't deal with the issue just gets rid of it.
> 
> I'm not sure which hypothetical dog is killing a kid at the moment however in the OPs case it would be her fault (yeah I know flame me for it I could care less) the dog growled at HER so she had all of her kids come and handle the dog and the dog lunged at her son... surely not gonna kill the dog for that one.


I didn't give any advice to the OP. I jumped in when you all were attacking someone named gramma for her beliefs.


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Top rolling is superior. If it were not, why would motels do it this way!??


Capitalism at its worst. It's all a conspiracy designed by the toilet paper companies in cahoots with Staples.




msvette2u said:


> And...if you roll from the bottom how do you get the roll to stop once it's going!?


Talent Baby...Talent...


ETA: How fast do you have that thing going?! I want a video of that! We could win funniest home videos with the out of control toilet paper roll!


----------



## onyx'girl

Jack's Dad said:


> Know one knows what goes on in peoples homes. * If the dog is growling it could just be leadership issues and have nothing to do with any type of training. It could be genetics or any number of other things.*
> *
> I also don't think the type of training is rocket science. It's basically Pavlov and operant conditioning.*
> 
> As far as the sake of argument issue, I came to this thread after a number of you had already been at it for some time. So if anyone is concerned about arguing, check on how many back and forth posts and who the individuals were before I interjected my two cents worth.
> 
> Also the OP was asking about an issue that has already occured and what to do about it not how to train a puppy.


:thumbup:


----------



## Shaina

Jax08 said:


> I think it's related to whether your ring finger is longer than your index finger.


My ring finger is indeed longer than my index finger, and I am a top roller! Do I win a prize? Have I found the missing link?

Shepherdmom, I for one do not like to see anybody chased off of a forum, and I like to see debates - however should be kept civil and not assume that people can't control their dogs, are weak handlers, and that their dogs should be destroyed. I try not to base my judgement of a person based on a heated thread such as this one.


----------



## selzer

It's all Gramma's fault, LOL!


----------



## Jax08

Shaina said:


> My ring finger is indeed longer than my index finger, and I am a top roller! Do I win a prize? Have I found the missing link?


Nooo!!!!! It must be something else! I"m a bottom roller. It must be an unidentified gene!


----------



## msvette2u

Well slap my gramma...!!

BTW Holmes doesn't know about TP or what way it goes because she's sitting in the middle of her room petrified of her dog!


----------



## chelle

shepherdmom said:


> God this is so stupid. I said a dog that attacks humans is not tolerated. Not a dog that mouthes someones hand. However that dog that bit someones in the face would definately have been PTS at my house. You all are welcome to think what you like of me and I really don't care but it makes me sick that some of you are out there giving bad advice to people with problem dogs. When the problem dog kills a kid how are you going to feel then?


Of course a HA dog is not tolerated... it is trained to the maximum extent it can be, and if it cannot be rehabiltated, I think most would agree it must be PTS.

I am unclear which dog bit who in the face. (Bails has knicked me in the face, but I was the dumbdumb asking for the kiss and he was excited.)

Killing a KID? Honestly, that's over"kill". 

What "bad" advice was given? 

Clearly, you don't like the "trade" game thing... ok. I guess I was playing that game in a way, without knowing there even was such a thing. I just thought of it as conditioning. It has worked for me. I've also taken the harsher methods when I was challenged, later on, by my adults.. and that works, too.... 

What *I* want to know, is if you have a puppy that you are only "harsh" with, that you don't attempt to "condition" with pets, pats, attention, etc as they're eating and chewing -- what are you teaching? That you're a control freak owner? Do you even *try* to condition the dog when they're young or just take this haughty taughty attitude that IT'S MINE and DON'T YOU DARE CHALLENGE ME? I am *honestly* curious as to your approach here.

I often hand-fed my dogs as pups... offered a chewie and held it... played the trade thing... came up as they were chewing/eating and gave them a good head and/or tummy rub, telling them how woooonderful they are... and except for isolated incidents when they were older and had something ultra high value, that has worked for me. 

Maybe you're not explaining your own methods well enough and that's why you're getting so much negative feedback.

And for the record, I have zero fear of any of my dogs. What kind of owner would I be if I did.


----------



## Emoore

Geez. I take two hours off to eat some pizza and watch Big (with Tom Hanks) and you guys get all weird on me.


----------



## Shaina

Emoore said:


> Geez. I take two hours off to eat some pizza and watch Big (with Tom Hanks) and you guys get all weird on me.



You left us all when we were most vulnerable. You should have known better..


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Well slap my gramma...!!
> 
> BTW Holmes doesn't know about TP or what way it goes because she's sitting in the middle of her room petrified of her dog!


well...Jinx is a pretty smart cookie. She is a Wildhaus dog. :wub: I think that Jinx will help Holmes overcome her fear aggression and resource guarding by teaching her to trade a bone for the TP. Then Jinx will teach her how to put the roll on correctly (pull from the bottom).

And that is my prediction for 2012. Please pay as you leave.


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> Wow you really get all that from my posts or do you get that from people twisting what I say and putting words in my mouth. I would never have lasted in 4-h obedience, helping with search and rescue or working for a vet all of which I have done if I was that kind of person. You all are attacking me so I'm attacking back, really what all do you all expect? Are you trying to force me to leave the forums? Cause *if you all don't want me I'll be glad to go*.


Really, after you come in guns blazing, this is the card you are gonna play?

No one attacked you.. in the beginning. You had a different opinion then some of the people.. ok great thats what makes a forum and makes a GREAT discussion. However, when someone had a different opinion then you you got on them about it and accused her of being blind and refusing to acknowledge any other training methods as effective besides her own when in truth you were AND STILL ARE doing the exact thing you accused someone else of.

After talking even longer you told people who have "been there done that" with these training methods that they were wrong and a bunch of other stuff when these people have had hard dogs and learned the hard way not one method ALWAYS works. I am not one of those people that had to learn the hard way because thankfully I had people there to teach me I have however learned that certain dogs require different training to bring out the best in them.

Now yes I'm going to come back at you when you are coming up with wild accusation about me being a weak leader full of excuses have an aggressive dog etc.. 

When you first stated your opinion on training I had no problems with it and even stated I agreed on some parts of it however you were to blind and in "defense mode" to pay any attention to anything that wasn't someone saying "oh yes you are god you are right and all knowing" You have now NUMEROUS times accused other people of doing the SAME thing you are doing then want to turn around and play the pity card? Sorry it doesn't work that way.

Instead of saying what I am thinking (because I'm trying to be nice here) and as the person that has dealt with most of your poorly thought out word choices, I will say this forum is a huge source of knowledge to learn from but if you think you already know it all and refuse to even give any other ideas the time of day then in all fairness there is no reason to be here. If you are someone who realizes that there is always something new to learn then by all means stay and learn however the attitude you showed here tonight definitely will not get you far on this forum with these people.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> She was referring to my dog, not the OP's. Some people feel the need to throw out comments like that so they can continue drama and fighting.
> 
> The topic is now alcohol and toilet paper. So...no...we are not on topic if it is the original topic.


Oh I don't want to continue the drama and the fighting but I'm not going to back down either. Not with people like you putting words into my mouth. :headbang:

There is no argument about the toilet paper it goes on top. As for alcohol I'm staying out of that one. I don't drink.


----------



## chelle

msvette2u said:


> Top rolling is superior. If it were not, why would motels do it this way!??
> And...if you roll from the bottom how do you get the roll to stop once it's going!?


AH don't you see! They do it that way because it won't roll *as fast*! They don't want you to waste. Some of us are in a hurry to get the deed over with. Roll, baby, roll!


----------



## chelle

shepherdmom said:


> Oh I don't want to continue the drama and the fighting but I'm not going to back down either. Not with people like you putting words into my mouth. :headbang:
> 
> There is no argument about the toilet paper it goes on top. As for alcohol I'm staying out of that one. I don't drink.


Oh crap, literally -- another top roller. I think we bottom rollers are now in the distinct minority. Ugh.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Holmeshx2 said:


> First, I may need some brownies... pretty pretty please.. this thread is taking its toll.. or maybe I'm just worn out from living in fear of the fluff ball lol.
> 
> way off topic but you mentioned taking classes for learning cat behavior.. Have any of you seen that cat whisperer show.. forget what it's called. I never laughed so hard in my life (well until tonight this thread provides me humor) The guy was upset because he kept offering "blinks" at the cat and the cat wouldn't return the blinks so it was a difficult case lmao.. Some of his stuff made sense but some cracked me up.
> 
> Now, i've kept quiet long enough on this toilet paper thing... Hubby never puts it on the roll its only me however has the gull to get on me about how it should be done a certain way (hmm maybe I should take him out back) now me personally I could care less and never knew people had a preference of how it was on the roll.


Oh no problem! Feel free to take as many as you want!

I have seen that show, the name slips my mind too. The dude in the show who is the cat whisperer makes giggle.lol. I don't really watch as I don't have a cat yet.lol. But I think the dude i silly.


----------



## Jax08

Don't worry...bottom rollers are still superior.


----------



## msvette2u

The movie is COURAGEOUS 

And top is better. I get my paper off while the other stuff's going on so I'm at the ready when it's done, so rolling time isn't a factor. LOL


----------



## chelle

Jax08 said:


> Don't worry...bottom rollers are still superior.


We are definitely superior to the Cat Whisperer. (REALLY, there is such a thing?)


----------



## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Really, after you come in guns blazing, this is the card you are gonna play?
> 
> No one attacked you.. in the beginning. You had a different opinion then some of the people.. ok great thats what makes a forum and makes a GREAT discussion. However, when someone had a different opinion then you you got on them about it and accused her of being blind and refusing to acknowledge any other training methods as effective besides her own when in truth you were AND STILL ARE doing the exact thing you accused someone else of.
> 
> After talking even longer you told people who have "been there done that" with these training methods that they were wrong and a bunch of other stuff when these people have had hard dogs and learned the hard way not one method ALWAYS works. I am not one of those people that had to learn the hard way because thankfully I had people there to teach me I have however learned that certain dogs require different training to bring out the best in them.
> 
> Now yes I'm going to come back at you when you are coming up with wild accusation about me being a weak leader full of excuses have an aggressive dog etc..
> 
> When you first stated your opinion on training I had no problems with it and even stated I agreed on some parts of it however you were to blind and in "defense mode" to pay any attention to anything that wasn't someone saying "oh yes you are god you are right and all knowing" You have now NUMEROUS times accused other people of doing the SAME thing you are doing then want to turn around and play the pity card? Sorry it doesn't work that way.
> 
> Instead of saying what I am thinking (because I'm trying to be nice here) and as the person that has dealt with most of your poorly thought out word choices, I will say this forum is a huge source of knowledge to learn from but if you think you already know it all and refuse to even give any other ideas the time of day then in all fairness there is no reason to be here. If you are someone who realizes that there is always something new to learn then by all means stay and learn however the attitude you showed here tonight definitely will not get you far on this forum with these people.


Mine were not poorly thought out words it was all the words you people put into my mouth that I never said. However whatever. Life is to short to waste it where I'm not wanted. Have fun agreeing with each other. :shrug:


----------



## chelle

msvette2u said:


> The movie is COURAGEOUS
> 
> And top is better. I get my paper off while the other stuff's going on so I'm at the ready when it's done, so rolling time isn't a factor. LOL


:rofl: You... multi-tasker, you!!!!!!!! 

I'm still not convinced. :laugh:


----------



## Emoore

Am I the only one who puts the TP on the roll without thinking about which direction it faces? I just don't care if it's on the top or the bottom.


----------



## chelle

shepherdmom said:


> Mine were not poorly thought out words it was all the words you people put into my mouth that I never said. However whatever. Life is to short to waste it where I'm not wanted. Have fun agreeing with each other. :shrug:


 
Ah, heck, I've had my big butt kicked around on this forum... consider it a rite of passage.


----------



## Shaina

In a hurry, I may put the TP on the wrong (bottom) way. I'll leave it that way, but I won't lie and say that it doesn't bother me until the next roll takes it place.....


----------



## Jax08

chelle said:


> We are definitely superior to the Cat Whisperer. (REALLY, there is such a thing?)


There's a whisperer for everything!


----------



## Jax08

chelle said:


> Ah, heck, I've had my big butt kicked around on this forum... consider it a rite of passage.


Your butt was kicked unfairly. I remember that thread. It was so uncalled for.


----------



## Jax08

Shaina said:


> In a hurry, I may put the TP on the wrong (bottom) way. I'll leave it that way, but I won't lie and say that it doesn't bother me until the next roll takes it place.....


Oh thank you for that! I thought I was the only OCD that it bothered if it was on wrong! Maybe THAT is the connection with the ring/index finger!


----------



## msvette2u

Yes you're the only one. I'm somewhat OCD - and the design is also on the top of the roll when it rolls from the top, further proof bottom rollers are backwards! Are you lefties too?
Or just afraid of your TP!?


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Yes you're the only one. I'm somewhat OCD - and the design is also on the top of the roll when it rolls from the top, further proof bottom rollers are backwards! Are you lefties too?
> Or just afraid of your TP!?


I already told you I was!! Afraid that is! I take my shotgun with me in case the TP bites me in the face!

It would make it easier if I knew which one was a shotgun...

I'm tellin' ya...the design on top...conspiracy! It's on the same roll of microfilm as the Kennedy assassination and Elvis being alive...conspiracy.


----------



## msvette2u

Mine's not as fancy but look how easy it is to change out the paper on these!

toilet paper stand : images5031


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am an outlier. I don't like the TP on the roll at all. 

What are you all gonna do about that, huh? Oh yeah, I just shook up your little compliant, color in the lines worlds didn't I...


----------



## Holmeshx2

Emoore said:


> Am I the only one who puts the TP on the roll without thinking about which direction it faces? I just don't care if it's on the top or the bottom.


Had you taken the time to read previous posts you would see this has been answered  lol

Honestly though, I never realized that it mattered until I got married. My husband never changes the darn roll and when he goes in after I do it he complains its not done right however after 9 years I still don't know which way he THINKS is right and honestly I could care less lol. Either way you can wipe your butt so get over it or do it yourself haha.

Shepherdmom just for the record when you came in to "defend" the poster there was nothing to defend. When ever someone posted something in general about training that differed from her view she posted rather defensively that she was some horrible person etc... She is the one that got defensive when there was nothing to be defensive about no one was even talking about HER we were talking about training in general some people just can't handle differing opinions without taking it personal.


----------



## onyx'girl

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am an outlier. I don't like the TP on the roll at all.
> 
> What are you all gonna do about that, huh? Oh yeah, I just shook up your little compliant, color in the lines worlds didn't I...


Such a rebel!!:wild:


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Mine's not as fancy but look how easy it is to change out the paper on these!
> 
> toilet paper stand : images5031


uh huh...and when you are in a hurry and pull it from the top...

IT FALLS OVER!!! And makes a very loud clang in your friend's bathroom so she asks if you are alright in there while you are accidentally destroying her bathroom trying to bring the TP stand back close enough to reach with your toes.

Bottom pull doesn't cause that awkward situation!!!


----------



## Holmeshx2

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am an outlier. I don't like the TP on the roll at all.
> 
> What are you all gonna do about that, huh? Oh yeah,* I just shook up your little compliant, color in the lines worlds didn't I*...


fine I'll shake it up even more... I don't even use a tp holder I just throw the roll on top of the sink and say "deal with it" so it doesn't matter which way it is...


----------



## msvette2u

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am an outlier. I don't like the TP on the roll at all.
> 
> What are you all gonna do about that, huh? Oh yeah, I just shook up your little compliant, color in the lines worlds didn't I...


OH I love you! I knew there was a reason we get along! 
In the kids' bathroom there's no holder at all! We're such rebels!

And this holder is almost like no holder at all, I love it. But I still roll from the top when I stick a roll.
toilet paper stand : images5031


----------



## Holmeshx2

hmm never mind strike my last statement.. I don't know why I didn't comprehend what Jean said it was jibberish until after I replied..... hmm maybe I don't need a drink after all haha.

Anyone else notice in that link that every other picture the roll is facing a different direction.. guess they didn't want to stir the debate as to which way is better haha


----------



## Emoore

Well I don't even use toilet paper at all! How 'bout THAT!

Wait, um. . . . that's not what I. . . .erm. . . .nevermind.

:lurking:


----------



## Holmeshx2

Emoore said:


> Well I don't even use toilet paper at all! How 'bout THAT!
> 
> Wait, um. . . . that's not what I. . . .erm. . . .nevermind.
> 
> :lurking:


are you afraid of it? Just a side note if we ever meet in RL remind me not to shake your hand lol


----------



## Jax08

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am an outlier. I don't like the TP on the roll at all.
> 
> What are you all gonna do about that, huh? Oh yeah, I just shook up your little compliant, color in the lines worlds didn't I...


Take ya out back...


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

NO ONE UNDERSTANDS ME HOLMESHX2 I'm a rebel without a cause...unless that cause is TP. 

I had no idea there were so many TP stands. 

And you know what else, I'll go into your homes, and take your TP off the roll, and there ain't nothin' you're gonna do about it.


----------



## chelle

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am an outlier. I don't like the TP on the roll at all.
> 
> What are you all gonna do about that, huh? Oh yeah, I just shook up your little compliant, color in the lines worlds didn't I...


Ah.... confession time... I do this, too. BUT I am a strong believer in coloring inside the lines, so now I'm very confused.



Jax08 said:


> uh huh...and when you are in a hurry and pull it from the top...
> 
> IT FALLS OVER!!! And makes a very loud clang in your friend's bathroom so she asks if you are alright in there while you are accidentally destroying her bathroom trying to bring the TP stand back close enough to reach with your toes.
> 
> Bottom pull doesn't cause that awkward situation!!!


Yeah!!! Top THAT!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Jax08 said:


> Take ya out back...


I will only reply to you in lolcats.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Now, i've kept quiet long enough on this toilet paper thing... Hubby never puts it on the roll its only me however has the gull to get on me about how it should be done a certain way (hmm maybe I should take him out back) now me personally I could care less and never knew people had a preference of how it was on the roll.


Halo EATS your toilet paper, and she doesn't care HOW you put it on the roll! oke:


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Emoore said:


> Am I the only one who puts the TP on the roll without thinking about which direction it faces? I just don't care if it's on the top or the bottom.


You're not! When you have a dog who is just going to eat it anyway, it really doesn't matter how you put it on the roll. :wild: The safest thing is not to put it on the roll at all, lol!


----------



## msvette2u

So...the TP is afraid of HIM??


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Emoore said:


> Well I don't even use toilet paper at all! How 'bout THAT!
> 
> Wait, um. . . . that's not what I. . . .erm. . . .nevermind.
> 
> :lurking:


----------



## GregK

Jax08 said:


> I was arguing about toilet paper at one point! Were you a pull from the top or pull from the bottom person?


Over the top....always!!! 




shepherdmom said:


> but a real all out and out bite no. That is simply not allowed. If my dog ever did that, they would be taken outside and shot. There is no other method or working with that kind of behavior. .


 

This is total nonsence!! :thumbsdown:


----------



## KSdogowner

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Halo EATS your toilet paper, and she doesn't care HOW you put it on the roll! oke:


That picture is hilarious. "I didn't do it. Why are you looking at me like that? What roll of TP? I would NEVER do such a thing"

Oh wait...how did we get from a pup biting to toilet paper LOL. Better catch up with my reading, huh?


----------



## msvette2u

He's still biting...the roll of paper!! Pay attention!! 
:rofl:


----------



## selzer

I think Cassidy's Mom just called your I-don't-even-use-TP and raised it by a couple. I am waiting for someone to come on from that freaky addictions show, and...


----------



## chelle

Originally Posted by *shepherdmom*  
_but a real all out and out bite no. That is simply not allowed. If my dog ever did that, they would be taken outside and shot. There is no other method or working with that kind of behavior. ._

_Oh crap I didn't see that one... (why can't I get the dang italics to go OFF?)_

_This is so.. harsh... _

_I am so slow sometimes. _

_Really, you'd march it out back and kill it? I didn't see the rest of the context of the thread, so I don't want to jump to conclusions... but mercy me. That's a big statement to make. I mean, you'd surely take into account any conditions that were present, right???_


----------



## Shaina

This.. is... SPARTA.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I knew my time in the military would be useful some time in the future.

TP is officially over the top. Sort of like this thread. :laugh:

This thread is starting to remind me of GSDlovas thread about gangs on the forum.


----------



## chelle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Halo EATS your toilet paper, and she doesn't care HOW you put it on the roll! oke:


It *might* appear the roll is on *over the top* -- which is the entire problem. A dog of this intelligence level just knows this is not right and is only trying to put it on properly.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Shaina said:


> This.. is... SPARTA.


What did you trade Sparta for the TP?


----------



## Holmeshx2

so sad.. I tried looking through all my old pictures and couldn't find any of my lolcat ones to contribute  must have lost them in my fear stricken panic when Jinx walked into the room


----------



## Shaina

Jack's Dad said:


> What did you trade Sparta for the TP?



Beggin' strips. Spartans love beggin' strips.


----------



## selzer

Well, Dad's 70th tonight. My sister brought her girls over. My parents were at my other sister's earlier with her girls, they cannot be around germs yet because of the whole premie deal. Anyhow, the five-year-olds were over today. 

My dad fed Cujo. He lays down to eat -- yeah pretty crazy, but whatever. My sister and I are in the kitchen and Elena walks over to Cujo and bent over to pet his head. Now remember, I have been following this thread. My sister an I in unison said, "Don't bother the dog when he is eating." 

Elena looked at us and walked out of the room. Cujo was fine, did not grumble or guard or whatever. Cujo is the dog that everyone walks over instead of making him move. Later, Analisa is bending over him (he was laying down) and saying good bye to him. All I could think of was what would happen if Cujo reared his head up at that moment. They have such rock-hard skulls, that they do not have to snarl or bite or anything to inspire fear of injury. 

Not sure what that story was all about.

Once upon a time, (I guess I top load the TP), but Dubya when he was just a tyke, grabbed a hold of the hanging end of the roll and ran, paper trailing him all the way to the living room.


----------



## chelle

Shaina said:


> This.. is... SPARTA.


Ohhh look at her go! She's but a blur!!!!!!


----------



## Shaina

chelle said:


> Ohhh look at her go! She's but a blur!!!!!!



I wish I could take credit for that photo, unfortunately I found it on google images LOL. But, let it be told, Versailles loves her some TP... and cotton balls... and dryer sheets...


----------



## chelle

selzer said:


> Well, Dad's 70th tonight. My sister brought her girls over. My parents were at my other sister's earlier with her girls, they cannot be around germs yet because of the whole premie deal. Anyhow, the five-year-olds were over today.
> 
> My dad fed Cujo. He lays down to eat -- yeah pretty crazy, but whatever. My sister and I are in the kitchen and Elena walks over to Cujo and bent over to pet his head. *Now remember, I have been following this thread*. My sister an I in unison said, "Don't bother the dog when he is eating."
> 
> Elena looked at us and walked out of the room. Cujo was fine, did not grumble or guard or whatever. Cujo is the dog that everyone walks over instead of making him move. Later, Analisa is bending over him (he was laying down) and saying good bye to him. All I could think of was what would happen if Cujo reared his head up at that moment. *They have such rock-hard skulls,* that they do not have to snarl or bite or anything to inspire fear of injury.
> 
> Not sure what that story was all about.
> 
> Once upon a time, (I guess I top load the TP), but Dubya when he was just a tyke, grabbed a hold of the hanging end of the roll and ran, paper trailing him all the way to the living room.


Hahaha!  What is going on when we think of these threads in our normal lives? (I do!) 

Rock hard skulls is RIGHT. Oh my gosh, ouch! Like a dang brick!

My only issue here is the top loading. I am going to retire for the night soon and I'm seriously a little disheartened that only Jax and I are bottom loaders.


----------



## msvette2u

Hah we had a senior Cocker foster who had a Q-tip fetish of all things. He was perfect but Q-tips beware!


----------



## chelle

Shaina said:


> I wish I could take credit for that photo, unfortunately I found it on google images LOL. But, let it be told, Versailles loves her some TP... and cotton balls... and dryer sheets...


Totally forgiven for the image swiping. Any dog with a cool name like Versailles gets a free pass in my book. That really is a totally awesome name.


----------



## Holmeshx2

selzer said:


> Well, Dad's 70th tonight. My sister brought her girls over. My parents were at my other sister's earlier with her girls, they cannot be around germs yet because of the whole premie deal. Anyhow, the five-year-olds were over today.
> 
> My dad fed Cujo. He lays down to eat -- yeah pretty crazy, but whatever. My sister and I are in the kitchen and Elena walks over to Cujo and bent over to pet his head. Now remember, I have been following this thread. My sister an I in unison said, *"Don't bother the dog when he is eating."
> 
> Elena looked at us and walked out of the room. Cujo was fine, did not grumble or guard or whatever. Cujo is the dog that everyone walks over instead of making him move. * Later, Analisa is bending over him (he was laying down) and saying good bye to him. All I could think of was what would happen if Cujo reared his head up at that moment. They have such rock-hard skulls, that they do not have to snarl or bite or anything to inspire fear of injury.
> 
> Not sure what that story was all about.
> 
> Once upon a time, (I guess I top load the TP), but Dubya when he was just a tyke, grabbed a hold of the hanging end of the roll and ran, paper trailing him all the way to the living room.


See THIS is perfect. Kids are kids and are gonna do things regardless you can not perfectly proof a kid.. not gonna happen. Obviously the dog has to learn growling is NOT ok but the child (and adult) learns to just leave the dog in peace. However when you have someone mess with the dog or need it to move (like when Jinx is blocking the fridge while eating) the dog should handle it without getting nasty. To me what you posted was PERFECT! When she's blocking the fridge eating I either say "excuse me" or just use my leg and push her over a bit so I can get clearance where I need to. BTW before people thing I'm being weak with the dog by using "manners" this is just what I started saying with her as a pup while I manually moved her out of my way and it just stuck with me so she knows when I say it to move to the side some so I can get where she is then when I say "thank you" she goes back to where she was. just some of the weird "unofficial" commands she has.

BTW those fat heads REALLY do flippin hurt. I was at the Wild's visiting/dabbling in training over the summer and before we left I took Jinx out of her crate to potty before the long car ride when Tim came out to see Jinx I looked up at him she springed into the air out of excitement being out of the crate and that fat head about knocked me unconscious. Stood (barely) there for a few minutes dazed and throbbing in pain.

Some other times have left me bruised and achy for a few days and to her it was nothing.

I walk over Jinx also she knows she is to hold still until people pass her or I make her move first depending on the situation but generally its a step over while she lays there.


----------



## RocketDog

The Sparta post wins. 

End of thread.


----------



## Lialla

Wow, what a long discussion this turned into and it's sooooo out of control I've been able to read through only a half of it.

Thanks for all the advice, I'm taking all in. I'm sure that either method is working fine as long as it's implemented correctly and consistently. The end result should be the same - respect from both parties - a dog and an owner. Maybe consistency and lack of discipline lately and a bratty butthead teenage working GSD that is checking the boundaries on top of that is what escalated that situation. I've contacted our Sch trainer who thinks it's pure dominance and hormones issue.

Another problem is that it seems that Grom is not as confident as GSD pup should be, there were situations when his reaction was not very adequate and I'm not sure whether it's just a phase or a temperament issue.


----------



## Holmeshx2

Its ok basically all the advice is in the first few pages anyways lol.. everything else is bickering and repeating what was said in the first few pages.

Depending on what your goals are in Schutzhund and who you train with continuing with SchH could be rather helpful... however if you have poor trainers it could make things worse he should be working more in obedience and tracking then bites right now IMO. 

Now this is just MY opinion so take it as such however if he has a lack of confidence I doubt this is a true dominance thing. After talking with plenty of people WAY more experienced then I am I have come to the conclusion that way to many people blame things on dominance when its not the cause nearly as much as people would like to think. I would have a hard time fully trusting someone to train me and my dog (especially in something like schH that can screw up a dog when done wrong) to someone who is blaming something on dominance in dog that already lacks confidence. Either he doesn't have confidence issues or it wasn't dominance... personally I don't think it was truly dominance. The dog felt unsure and didn't want something taken away so he tried to back you off not dominance really.

Kind of like when you go to your son while hes engrossed in video games and give him a big hug and he goes "moooooooooooooom" as he tries to wiggle you off of him so he can continue playing in peace. Not a dominance thing or a challenge just more of a "I really don't feel like being bothered now"


----------



## selzer

Agree, the dominance and lack of confidence bothered me as well. 

It is important too, to know what you are dealing with in regards to confidence/lack of, because it should make a difference in your approach. If you lose your mind and physically punish/harshly correct a confident dog, the dog should recover without a problem and it may even modify behavior somewhat. If you do the same to a dog lacking in confidence, it can do serious damage, as it will shatter what trust the dog desperately requires from its leader.

I wish people would stop going to town with all the dominance thought. I think it does more harm than good.


----------



## shepherdmom

Lialla said:


> Another problem is that it seems that Grom is not as confident as GSD pup should be, there were situations when his reaction was not very adequate and I'm not sure whether it's just a phase or a temperament issue.


I realize I'm not wanted around here but I just want to help the OP so take it for what its worth or not. 

In my opinion I think that the best thing you can do with a non-confident puppy is to give him consistency. Make sure you react the same way every time. He needs to feel secure and the best way IMO to be consistent. Good luck.


----------



## msvette2u

selzer said:


> Agree, the dominance and lack of confidence bothered me as well.
> 
> It is important too, to know what you are dealing with in regards to confidence/lack of, because it should make a difference in your approach. If you lose your mind and physically punish/harshly correct a confident dog, the dog should recover without a problem and it may even modify behavior somewhat. If you do the same to a dog lacking in confidence, it can do serious damage, as it will shatter what trust the dog desperately requires from its leader.
> 
> I wish people would stop going to town with all the dominance thought. I think it does more harm than good.


Good post.
Your Sch trainer is bandying about "dominance" so he has something to say. After all, he's the trainer!
Please be careful with this situation and this dog. It doesn't sound like dominance to me, as much as simple resource guarding, back to the beginning of the thread, dogs are hardwired to be resource guarders.

Also, if he has a lack of confidence you need to work on that before continuing with Sch training. Not all dogs are cut out to be Sch dogs. If your dog has confidence and temperament issues, I doubt Sch is for him, but then again I am no expert.


----------



## Jax08

I've heard that SchH can help build confidence in dogs. So can agility and obedience. Basically any training that is consistent and positively reinforced can.

Have you talked to your breeder, or maybe had a good breeder on here look at his pedigree to see if there is anything in there that might indicate genetic sharpness or weak nerves?


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## Lialla

We've started Sch just recently, had only 4-5 sessions, he has no confidence issues during training, he is not afraid of anything and goes right into it. So the trainer sees a very confident and strong dog and judgement of it to be dominant might be spot on, it was stated more as a hormonal and due to his age and lack of respect. I'm thinking of putting Sch training on hold, the protection part at least, and focus more on his obidience.

Shepherdmom, your opinion, as well as everybody else's, is welcome and very appreciated. The more opinions I get, the more knowledge I have on how to deal with it.

He is fine with corrections, actually I had to get harder corrections lately to get his attention, he has no problems with it. Just some situations when he bolts from some people (I walked him yesterday and he saw road workers sitting down and discussing smth, he got closer to the ground and clearly wanted to get past them as quickly as possible. I had to walk him several times past workers and ask him to sit nearby, he obeyed, but was nervous). He was afraid of the rustling branches with leaves (he had a bad episode with a branch as a pup), but we worked on it and he got through it. Still walks very fast by on ornament that looks like a branch, but much better than before. And some other episodes when he freaked out, but he seems to recover. Again, it could be normal, just a phase but after that snappy incident I started to look at that at different angle.

Here is his pedigree Grom Von Apoll - German Shepherd Dog Let me know what you see there.


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## msvette2u

What does the breeder say about what's going on?


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## Lialla

I haven't contacted the breeder yet.


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## msvette2u

Well...it seems that'd be your first stop...or should be??


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## Holmeshx2

definitely should be first stop for any of this (including the fear reactions) because they not only can generally explain why and what to do about it (including whether or not to continue the training or take a break or if that trainer is the best for that dog) all the issues could be very valuable information to them on a specific dog combination in their breeding. I can't tell you how valuable it is having my breeder and all of her knowledge as a resource when I'm not sure about something or just want to double check if I'm doing something right. Most of the times my very first call or email on stuff sometimes tiny little thing I come here first just because I don't want to "bug" her but most things definitely go through her first.


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## GregK

Sounds like he's going through his second fear period. Here's some info on that:

Developmental Stages


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## Shaina

Definitely looks like a nice working pedigree, but not dogs that I've seen a whole lot of... would be interesting to get opinions on that (though those topics always open up a whole NOTHER can of worms, "you have the dog, you need to work on it and not focus on the pedigree" type of thing..). 

8 months old is a very normal time to start another fear period. He's growing up, and now is the time to step up training and being consistent. When I say step up, I don't mean physically but mentally... time to make his little brain work


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## Jax08

Lialla said:


> Here is his pedigree Grom Von Apoll - German Shepherd Dog Let me know what you see there.


I would start a new thread asking for an eval of the pedigree or PM Carmen (carmspack) or Cliff (cliffson1) to ask them for an opinion.


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## Lialla

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll do that. Will be interesting to hear what experts think. And I'll talk to the breeder to get her opinion on Grom's behavior. 

Fear period makes sense, I definitely need to up on training with him.

Received a package from BestBullySticks yesterday with goodies, Grom got his first knuckle bone, he wasn't guarding it in any way, was wagging his tail and happy whenever anybody approached. He had diarrhea and puked pieces of bones at night though.


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## Shaina

He probably saw the 32 pages of debating over his behavior and decided he needed to do something before things got serious! LOL

Too bad with the diarrhea and vomiting though, I've never had issues with knuckle bones myself but it's definitely possible that it wouldn't agree.


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## onyx'girl

Try elk antlers instead of bully sticks, they are easy to digest because dog doesn't _in_gest much in a chew session
I personally don' think your trainer is seeing your dog correctly. You say he's confident/dominant, yet slinks past unfamiliar things to get by quickly? That is not a confident dog in my opinion. 


> *Maybe consistency and lack of discipline lately and a bratty butthead teenage working GSD that is checking the boundaries on top of that is what escalated that situation. I've contacted our Sch trainer who thinks it's pure dominance and hormones issue.
> Another problem is that it seems that Grom is not as confident as GSD pup should be, there were situations when his reaction was not very adequate and I'm not sure whether it's just a phase or a temperament issue*
> *
> Just some situations when he bolts from some people (I walked him yesterday and he saw road workers sitting down and discussing smth, he got closer to the ground and clearly wanted to get past them as quickly as possible. I had to walk him several times past workers and ask him to sit nearby, he obeyed, but was nervous). He was afraid of the rustling branches with leaves (he had a bad episode with a branch as a pup), but we worked on it and he got through it. Still walks very fast by on ornament that looks like a branch, but much better than before. And some other episodes when he freaked out, but he seems to recover*


Seems or does, what does he do to 'recover'? 
I think it is a great idea to stop with any protection work, and work on obedience, tracking and confidence building/balanced so he knows you are his leader.
Is he biddable, pack driven? Or more independent/on his own type dog?


----------



## Lialla

Yes, he was definitely reading as today he tried to do an exchange game with me. He brought me his favorite ball and after dropping it in my lap looked very meaningfully at a peace of prosciutto in my hands ))


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## onyx'girl

Was Grom a singleton pup? 
I saw the progeny from his dam and he's the only one listed on the pedigree. If so, this may play into some of his shenanigans.


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## Lialla

no, there were 9 pups in a litter, have no idea why they are not in the database. 

My trainer is not aware of the timid side of my dog, she never saw him to be timid or afraid. 



> Seems or does, what does he do to 'recover'?


He bolts at first but then goes to investigate and sniff around, with my encouragement, I make sure we pass the object several times to see if he still reacts, the only thing I see he still reacts to is this stupid ornament that looks and sounds like a branch (he was chased by big mean branch stuck in his long line when he was a young pup, he was very scared by that)



> Is he biddable, pack driven? Or more independent/on his own type dog?


what do you mean by biddable, pack driven?


----------



## shepherdmom

Lialla said:


> Shepherdmom, your opinion, as well as everybody else's, is welcome and very appreciated. The more opinions I get, the more knowledge I have on how to deal with it.


Thank you. I hope you soon find a solution. I see someone recommended talking to your breeder. That is a great idea. Our breeder is awesome and was always willing to answer questions when my dogs were little. We had 10 acres at the time and she would bring her dogs over to play. She taught me how to tape a floppy ear and a lot of other useful things. I learned a lot from her. She is still my go to person with dog issues.


----------



## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> This is the first time he behaved like that. Never saw any agression until today.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know whether what I did after he first growled at me was right or aggrivated him more. He was in his crated, and I didn't want just let him be after growling or just take the stick away. I got him out of his crate into middle and made him work for it, he growled at first, but then obeyed. Had my daughter did the same, but my son was hesitant, distracted with a video game, so I just sat near Grom petting him while he was chewing the stick, my daughter was nearby, and then my son approached. That's when Grom growled and snapped at him.
> 
> I got an order from BestBullySticks coming in tomorrow, will have more material to practice with



Wait a second. 

He was crated? That is a VERY important information that should not be left out.

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

The dog is eight months old
He was crated
Had a Bully Stick
You leaned down, into the crate while he's had that stick and you were trying to pet him and he growled at you and the kids while he was in the crate, with his bully stick?

And you are surprised he growled at you? 

He was IN a crate, WITH his resource. Let him be!


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> why didn't you allow him to have his bully stick in peace?????? I agree that i will not tolerate growling at me, but sheesh, if you are going to give the dog something to eat....let him have space and time to eat it without people in his face.


this!


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## Lialla

He was in his crate and I reached to praise him for having a bully stick in crate (as usually he is in the middle of room with it I didn't like that and was teaching him to eat it in his crate). That's when he growled.


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## codmaster

Absolutely NOT! Growling at any family member is NEVER acceptable! (other than extreme pain if course)!


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## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> He was in his crate and I reached to praise him for having a bully stick in crate (as usually he is in the middle of room with it I didn't like that and was teaching him to eat it in his crate). That's when he growled.


So he's in a crate, can't back away because there is a wall behind him, a wall to the right and the left. The only opening is the door-way of the crate. YOU LEAN INTO THAT SPACE an he feels that you are threatening his resource. 

Tell me, if you have a delicious desert and your husband or one of your kids would make a gesture that you mistake over them stealing your desert, would you sit there quietly or say "HEY! That is mine, go get your own!"
And how would you like it if somebody came, every time you have food or something delicious and would take that away. Pet you on the head and when you had enough and got upset, that person tells you to do the dishes before you get your dinner.


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## Jax08

While I agree with you, Mrs. K. I also agree with Codmaster. The dog shouldn't feel the need to resource guard against their family. What if he had something that was poisonous and instead of just reaching in to pet him, they were reaching in to save his life.

So, while I think the short term solution is don't reach into his cage which we've all beaten to death in this thread, he also needs some behavior modification to permanently fix this issue.


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## Holmeshx2

Jax08 said:


> While I agree with you, Mrs. K. I also agree with Codmaster. The dog shouldn't feel the need to resource guard against their family. What if he had something that was poisonous and instead of just reaching in to pet him, they were reaching in to save his life.
> 
> So, while I think the short term solution is don't reach into his cage which we've all beaten to death in this thread, he also needs some behavior modification to permanently fix this issue.


In the words of Ducky from "land before time"... "yup, yup, yuuuup" lol It is definitely 2 fold don't can not resource guard you just can't have dogs running around guarding stuff and going after humans HOWEVER at some point you also have to learn to just leave them alone because while they should never growl at you they also should have to always endure being messed with.. just like us they want their downtime too. Also crate is a safe place he chose to go into his safe place with it for a reason. A simple "good boy good crate" would have been sufficient in this situation not the need to reach in the crate over the head over the treat in order to pet (assuming he was fully in crate and facing outwards) then of course the reaction was a bit over kill as well. However no one came out of the womb knowing to train dogs we have all made mistakes its just a matter of learning from them and moving on (I'm positive the dog no longer cares about what happened from any angle lol)


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## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> So he's in a crate, can't back away because there is a wall behind him, a wall to the right and the left. The only opening is the door-way of the crate. YOU LEAN INTO THAT SPACE an he feels that you are threatening his resource.
> Tell me, if you have a delicious desert and your husband or one of your kids would make a gesture that you mistake over them stealing your desert, would you sit there quietly or say "HEY! That is mine, go get your own!"
> And how would you like it if somebody came, every time you have food or something delicious and would take that away. Pet you on the head and when you had enough and got upset, that person tells you to do the dishes before you get your dinner.


Would you *bite/shoot/stab/slap/punch* etc. your kid because they came running up to you when you had a great desert and wanted a BIG hug?????

Or would you expect your kid to do the same if you went over to him/her to get a hug and he/she was playing a computer game? Be serious!

Must have been a fun time when you had a dessert!


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## Mrs.K

Holmeshx2 said:


> In the words of Ducky from "land before time"... "yup, yup, yuuuup" lol It is definitely 2 fold don't can not resource guard you just can't have dogs running around guarding stuff and going after humans HOWEVER at some point you also have to learn to just leave them alone because while they should never growl at you they also should have to always endure being messed with.. just like us they want their downtime too. Also crate is a safe place he chose to go into his safe place with it for a reason. A simple "good boy good crate" would have been sufficient in this situation not the need to reach in the crate over the head over the treat in order to pet (assuming he was fully in crate and facing outwards) then of course the reaction was a bit over kill as well. However no one came out of the womb knowing to train dogs we have all made mistakes its just a matter of learning from them and moving on (I'm positive the dog no longer cares about what happened from any angle lol)



This. 

Ya'll should have seen Judges reaction the first day after he moved in, barely four months old and I reached down to his bowl without even thinking twice because I wanted to put it into a different place. Boy, did he growl at me. I nipped that in the butt quickly. 
He did resource guard lightly just like any other dog would do. If it was his, it was his and nobody gets it as in no dog would get it. It's normal. 

It's just like little kids, sometimes. They throw a hissy fit if the small sister takes the favorite lip stick from the bigger sister. Put signs on their doors etc. and literally storm the rooms demanding it back. 

If you understand a teenagers mind and how they resource guard their stuff, making their room off limits for their siblings. Maybe that helps you understand the situation the dog was in and all the dog has is his growl to give you a warning that you reached into his space. 

He literally told you: Stop, this is my space, don't go any further. 

Now you know and can work it out.


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## shepherdmom

codmaster said:


> Absolutely NOT! Growling at any family member is NEVER acceptable! (other than extreme pain if course)!


I agree.


----------



## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> Would you *bite/shoot/stab/slap/punch* etc. your kid because they came running up to you when you had a great desert and wanted a BIG hug?????
> 
> Or would you expect your kid to do the same if you went over to him/her to get a hug and he/she was playing a computer game? Be serious!
> 
> Must have been a fun time when you had a dessert!


Your post doesn't make any sense. He is NOT HUMAN! A dog does NOT understand the concept of a hug while he is IN THE CRATE WITH A HIGHLY VALUABLE RESOURCE!

A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog! 

That was merely an example to make you understand WHAT resource guarding is. We do it all the time. However, simply apply some common sense and ESPECIALLY teach the kids to stay away from a dog with a highly valuable resource. Be it the food bowl or a bully stick or a marrow bone. 

Kids have NO business in messing with a dog in that situation. Just shut the crate door and give them a break FROM the kids.


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## Lialla

Mrs. K, Yeah, I should apologize before my pup for invading his privacy. How dare I reach into his space! And back off as soon as I upset him so that he can do it again. 



> codmaster Absolutely NOT! Growling at any family member is NEVER acceptable! (other than extreme pain if course)!


That's what I agree with.


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## GregK

What I've learned from this thread:

*Stay away from Mrs.K while she's eating her dessert!!!!*


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## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> Mrs. K, Yeah, I should apologize before my pup for invading his privacy. How dare I reach into his space! And back off as soon as I upset him so that he can do it again.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I agree with.


That is NOT what I said.


----------



## Mrs.K

Okay, let's do this again. 

Your dog growled at you because you leaned into the crate. There was no backing out for the dog. A dog feels threatened when he's backed into a corner. Now add the highly valuable resource. You back him into a corner, threaten to take that resource away, he gives you a warning and says: Stop!

A growl is a warning! Some dogs don't give warnings, they go right at you. 

You know what he does, now you can work with it. 

However, teach your kids to let the dog alone when he's in a crate with his resource. Teach them to not pester him, to not take anything away from him, it's HIS space. His safe haven and he needs that. The crate is his place and that shouldn't be messed with. It's his retreat. 

We learned to not mess with the dogs when we were five or six years old and we understood the concept so eight and nine year olds are capable of understanding that too and the dog is still a puppy. He is not mentally matured yet. He does need a break from the kids, and it is your job to ensure that he gets his break when he's in the crate.

I am not saying to back away whenever the dog is growling. I'm saying to work at the issue but at the same time respect the dogs need of a break from the crazyness of young kids.


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> Your post doesn't make any sense. He is NOT HUMAN! A dog does NOT understand the concept of a hug while he is IN THE CRATE WITH A HIGHLY VALUABLE RESOURCE!
> 
> A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog!
> 
> That was merely an example to make you understand WHAT resource guarding is. We do it all the time. However, simply apply some common sense and ESPECIALLY teach the kids to stay away from a dog with a highly valuable resource. Be it the food bowl or a bully stick or a marrow bone.
> 
> Kids have NO business in messing with a dog in that situation. Just shut the crate door and give them a break FROM the kids.


If you didn't understand my analogy, that is ok. As long as you don't have any kids, I wouldn't expect you to understand the American teenager.

BTW, you also seem to have missed my point- so I will try again.

No dog (AT LEAST NOT MINE) is ever allowed to growl or show any other aggressive behavior toward any family member no matter what (BARRING EXTREME PHYSICL PAIN AS I HAVE SAID PREVIOUSLY AND WHICH I ASSUME THAT YOU ALSO EITHER MISSED OR JUST IGNORED).

I also have to rassure you that I am FULLY cognizant of what "*Resource guarding in dogs" *is - I JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT IT IS EVER ALLOWABLE OR ACCEPTABLE in a family dog. *That is absolutely ridiculous to even think about!*

That sounds like the truly uninitiated dog owners that I have known - one common saying among those family relatives when we would visit their house - "DON'T GO NEAR THE DOG, HE IS EATING!" Sound familar?

K - you raise your dogs the way you want and i will raise mine the way I want. But please don't try to tell the OP that they should just accept their own dog threatening to bite her and her kids. No owner should ever put up with this nonsense from their family pet - it is not necessary as it can be trained out of a dog very quickly with a variety of methods.

BTW, how is reaching in to pet a family pet dog "messing with the dog"? I insist on the right to "Mess" with my dog whenever and however I choose to and would never expect any type of aggressive reaction. Do I hurt the dog or cause him physical pain - of course not, but petting, pulling gently on his big bushy tail, grabbing his paw (got to cut his nails remember), and the like - OF COURSE!


----------



## Mrs.K

> K - you raise your dogs the way you want and i will raise mine the way I want. But please don't try to tell the OP that they should just accept their own dog threatening to bite her and her kids. No owner should ever put up with this nonsense from their family pet - it is not necessary as it can be trained out of a dog very quickly with a variety of methods.


Again. NOT what I said. 


And with the pet mentality... I am really not surprised at the many bite accidents out there. Seriously... and an American Teenager is not that different from a German Teenager. Eight and Nine years old are NOT teenagers anyways. 

Simply because there are impossible things expected from a dog....treat them like dogs, NOT like humans.


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> *Again. NOT what I said*. *Of course not!*
> 
> 
> And with the pet mentality... I am really not surprised at the many bite accidents out there. Seriously... and an American Teenager is not that different from a German Teenager. Eight and Nine years old are NOT teenagers anyways.
> 
> Simply because there a*re impossible things expected from a dog*....treat them like dogs, NOT like humans.


 
You are absolutely correct, as I know that I certainly expect my dogs to do impossible things like not biting family members and kids when they try to pet him (even if he has a Bully Stick in his mouth)! That must be very difficult for your dogs, from what you say.

I guess my 90+lb male unaltered ScH in-training male GSD must be terribly abused as I take stuff out of his mouth all the time, and even have the chutzpah to grab him and hug him when he has his nose buried in his food bowl. And believe me - he does react (that darn dog just starts wagging his tail like crazy and licking my face whenever he can reach it!). So I guess that one could say that he does react when I do something to him when he has a "High value" resource.

I do think that his reaction is a LOT better than the poor OP with her dog growling. 

Hang in there, OP, as you CAN train your dog NOT to react aggressively when you or your family tries to pet him when he has a good resource.


----------



## Holmeshx2

codmaster said:


> Would you *bite/shoot/stab/slap/punch* etc. your kid because they came running up to you when you had a great desert and wanted a BIG hug?????
> 
> Or would you expect your kid to do the same if you went over to him/her to get a hug and he/she was playing a computer game? Be serious!
> 
> Must have been a fun time when you had a dessert!


This is NOT what was said OR what was done.. the dog gave a VERBAL warning not a PHYSICAL warning so to equate what happened with a kid hitting or kicking is just ridiculous and blowing things WAY out of proportion! 

Had the dog physically corrected her the advice would be very different then an audible one. No growling is not acceptable either which is why we are saying to TRAIN the appropriate behavior.

Also to those that keep saying "well what if the dog has something it shouldn't have and you go to take it and the dog growls" again we are talking about a specific incident and the hypothetical WHAT IF??

YOU gave the dog something you said he could have them went and messed with it... not a fair leader moment and the dog said so.. these are the times I say a dog should be left alone when you give them something they are allowed to have they should get in peace not be forced to be pestered. Now if the dog has something he stole and not allowed to have then yes you go and snatch it back no questions asked and fine correct the growl however also train the behavior before it happens.


----------



## onyx'girl

So codmaster, what would you do, please advise the OP instead of commenting on what you wouldn't do. Actually give some advice???
Not many GSDs will act so submissive like yours, and and when they are pups will test instead. What would you do if your dog growled at you when you entered the crate to mess with the bullystick?

Growls don't scare me, they are the dogs way of communicating!!


----------



## Mrs.K

Holmeshx2 said:


> This is NOT what was said OR what was done.. the dog gave a VERBAL warning not a PHYSICAL warning so to equate what happened with a kid hitting or kicking is just ridiculous and blowing things WAY out of proportion!
> 
> Had the dog physically corrected her the advice would be very different then an audible one. No growling is not acceptable either which is why we are saying to TRAIN the appropriate behavior.
> 
> Also to those that keep saying "well what if the dog has something it shouldn't have and you go to take it and the dog growls" again we are talking about a specific incident and the hypothetical WHAT IF??
> 
> YOU gave the dog something you said he could have them went and messed with it... not a fair leader moment and the dog said so.. these are the times I say a dog should be left alone when you give them something they are allowed to have they should get in peace not be forced to be pestered. Now if the dog has something he stole and not allowed to have then yes you go and snatch it back no questions asked and fine correct the growl however also train the behavior before it happens.


Exactly! :thumbup:


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'd like to know why the OP picked this particular line of dog in the first place? Maybe I missed this


----------



## msvette2u

I've been curious about that too.
Or why the breeder let the dog go without some explanations of typical behavior to expect from the dog as it matured.
ETC.


----------



## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> You are absolutely correct, as I know that I certainly expect my dogs to do impossible things like not biting family members and kids when they try to pet him (even if he has a Bully Stick in his mouth)! That must be very difficult for your dogs, from what you say.
> 
> I guess my 90+lb male unaltered ScH in-training male GSD must be terribly abused as I take stuff out of his mouth all the time, and even have the chutzpah to grab him and hug him when he has his nose buried in his food bowl. And believe me - he does react (that darn dog just starts wagging his tail like crazy and licking my face whenever he can reach it!). So I guess that one could say that he does react when I do something to him when he has a "High value" resource.
> 
> I do think that his reaction is a LOT better than the poor OP with her dog growling.
> 
> Hang in there, OP, as you CAN train your dog NOT to react aggressively when you or your family tries to pet him when he has a good resource.



He did NOT bite any of the family members. What is your problem? You are completely blowing it out of proportion. And I would never let my stepchild crawl into the crate and hug the dog while he's got a bully stick in there. The dog was IN THE CRATE. Totally different scenario from outside the crate.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

codmaster do you do schutzhund with a golden retreiver?


----------



## KZoppa

JakodaCD OA said:


> codmaster do you do schutzhund with a golden retreiver?


 

:rofl::lurking:


----------



## Mrs.K

:rofl::thumbup:

Most SchH folks advise you to leave the dog alone btw.


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> So codmaster, what would you do, please advise the OP instead of commenting on what you wouldn't do. Actually give some advice??? *Sure. See below!*
> Not many GSDs will act so submissive like yours, and and when they are pups will test instead. What would you do if your dog growled at you when you entered the crate to mess with the bullystick? *I would use the dogs scruff if he were my dog! Of course some pups will test their owners as they start to mature, normal and to be expected BUT you cvannot let them think that they won (by backing off if they growl at you - if you do then you have just given them a lesson on how tough they are as they made you back off and they were able to keep their "High Value" object. Nice lesson to teach a maturing puppy, isn't it?*
> 
> Growls don't scare me, they are the dogs way of communicating!!


*I would do exactly what I DID do when I had a 9mo male GSD from imported parents growl at me when i also reached down to take a real bone (High Value?) away from him as we were going out in the car. I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, shook him a couple of times and growled "NO" to him.*

OTOH, I would not advise anyone to try this approach unless they were sure of themselves and their relationship with their dog and their ability to handle him/her. Could prove to be a risky thing BUT no worse than living with a dog who did not respect their owner and family at all.

And I would not think it would be a good idea to diagnosis and recommend exactly what someone else should do without seeing the dog and person in action in person. It is very hard for me to diagnose a dog over the Internet, unlike some folks who can do it very easily evidently.

BTW, onyx, if you think my dog is submissive, it is a pity that you can't come and meet him. I really do think that you might change your mind. His breeder calls him a "Bully", and that he thinks he is in charge of the entire group of GSD's that meet every week for training, and his behaviorist says that he is "the most self confident dog that she has ever seen in all her years of practice".

So you must be really great with dogs to be able to contradict all these folks without ever even seeing the dog. A great Internet dog expert.

Speaking of growls - what do you think the next step for a dog generally is after a growl? They should scare you, or at least make you stop and think about what the dog might do next. At least in person I would think so.

Have a nice day.


----------



## shepherdmom

codmaster said:


> .
> I guess my 90+lb male unaltered ScH in-training male GSD must be terribly abused as I take stuff out of his mouth all the time, and even have the chutzpah to grab him and hug him when he has his nose buried in his food bowl. And believe me - he does react (that darn dog just starts wagging his tail like crazy and licking my face whenever he can reach it!). .


This is exactly how my 90+ lb Buddy reacts as well. Can you tell me more about this ScH training? Maybe in a private message, if not appropriate here. I always thought it was guard dog training but what you are describing sounds like the kind of well behaved family member that I want.


----------



## onyx'girl

codmaster said:


> *I would do exactly what I DID do when I had a 9mo male GSD from imported parents growl at me when i also reached down to take a real bone (High Value?) away from him as we were going out in the car. I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, shook him a couple of times and growled "NO" to him.*
> 
> OTOH, I would not advise anyone to try this approach unless they were sure of themselves and their relationship with their dog and their ability to handle him/her. Could prove to be a risky thing BUT no worse than living with a dog who did not respect their owner and family at all.
> 
> And I would not think it would be a good idea to diagnosis and recommend exactly what someone else should do without seeing the dog and person in action in person. It is very hard for me to diagnose a dog over the Internet, unlike some folks who can do it very easily evidently.
> 
> BTW, onyx, if you think my dog is submissive, it is a pity that you can't come and meet him. I really do think that you might change your mind. His breeder calls him a "Bully", and that he thinks he is in charge of the entire group of GSD's that meet every week for training, and his behaviorist says that he is "the most self confident dog that she has ever seen in all her years of practice".
> *Why does he have a behaviorist?*
> So you must be really great with dogs to be able to contradict all these folks without ever even seeing the dog. A great Internet dog expert.
> * You are the one that described your dog as being tail wagging and licking your face, that doesn't sound like a bully to me.*
> Speaking of growls - what do you think the next step for a dog generally is after a growl? They should scare you, or at least make you stop and think about what the dog might do next. At least in person I would think so.
> * After a growl is corrected, the dog won't warn, and go to a bite with no warning/a growl is a WARNING*.
> Have a nice day.


you as well, "internet dog expert"...


----------



## Jax08

OP - I"m sorry. I thought by directing your one thread back to this one that you might get some insight based on his pedigree. Obviously that didn't happen and it's just turned into a bashing/arguing over a persons specific method again.

So...here's my advice...contact a trainer with positive based methods and a good understanding of working line GSD's. They can evaluate exactly what your dog is doing in person.


----------



## msvette2u

POSITIVE. Training. 

Run away if they use the word "DOMINANT", since most people (yes even those who bandy about that word) wouldn't know "dominant" if it smacked them in the eye.


----------



## onyx'girl

shepherdmom said:


> This is exactly how my 90+ lb Buddy reacts as well. Can you tell me more about this ScH training? Maybe in a private message, if not appropriate here. I always thought it was guard dog training but what you are describing sounds like the kind of well behaved family member that I want.


:laugh:


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I also agree with the two above posts,, funs over Definately get a hold of a good behaviorist OR talk to your breeder see what they suggest. 

For now you know , if he has a high value treat/bone, he should be left alone in his crate until you can get a handle on it.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> OP - I"m sorry. I thought by directing your one thread back to this one that you might get some insight based on his pedigree. Obviously that didn't happen and it's just turned into a bashing/arguing over a persons specific method again.
> 
> So...here's my advice...contact a trainer with positive based methods and a good understanding of working line GSD's. They can evaluate exactly what your dog is doing in person.


Not bashing. We did give her some insight from the working dog perspective and explained why the dog growled. There was absolutely no bashing involved. Some people are simply blind to the fact that a dog will be a dog and that the pedigree, in certain situations, simply has nothing to do with it. 

He's never done it before. It's the first time he's growled and he was in a crate. If you give the dog something he can have and he decides to go into the crate, just leave him alone and tell your kids to stay away. Let the dog have a place where he can feel safe, not invaded and simply retreat to be alone.

Noboday said not to work it out. We all say the same thing. Work out the problem but at the same time just leave the dog alone once you've given him something he can have.


----------



## Holmeshx2

OMG why do those that always want to be so physical to show how "dominant" they are simply refuse to realize those with other methods are NOT saying to LET the dog growl or when the dog does growl to simply back off...

NO ONE is saying to back off when the dog growls.. we are saying train a dog BEFORE they growl to not growl. We are saying if the dog has not been trained to do this and the dog DOES growl a simple correction for the growl (a verbal no sounds like a good idea since the dog did a verbal warning as well) and then in the future dont give high value treats or leave him alone when he has them until you have trained him not to growl.

WHY in the world can people not comprehend this? No one said let the dog growl, no one said back away in fear after the growl, no one said reward the dog when it growls by giving it something better (at that moment) what everyone did say is to TRAIN!!!

Gosh I think alot of people need to go back to elementary school and re-learn reading comprehension.


----------



## Lialla

This thread is going in circles. Again, I won't tolerate a behavior like that. I don't want to tiptoe around the house because a pup is having a stick or lunch, because who knows maybe he decides the whole dining room is his safe place and nobody should come near. You saw his pedigree, he comes from strong lines and it all can turn in an ugly mess if left like that when he has no respect. I don't plan to constantly mess with his food and bug him when he is chewing a bone of course. 

I took him to Sch training today, and during obidience he showed that the previous incident is just scratching a surface. It was surely not a resource guarding. I asked him to down and after a correction as he wasn't listening, he threw such a tantrum it was a bit scary. All he wanted to do is to join other dogs who were training nearby and he didn't want to obey at all. He was not getting what he wanted and was doing everything he could to get his way. He was basically acting as a wild snapping, biting and screaming animal which was just caught and leashed. It took AWHILE to get him under control. 

I have a dominant dog and I was a soft handler. I'm glad it got out now when it can be fixed. We'll be working with our trainer on this.


----------



## Holmeshx2

just curious but do you do engagement work with him? it really does make a difference in everything just some simple engagement work randomly and you will see a difference in his obedience no matter which command you are giving him or what is going on around him. I know when I slack off on engagement training we have issues elsewhere.


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## Mrs.K

You just don't get it. NOBODY says to tiptoe around the house. Leaving him alone in the crate, when you've given him something IS NOT tiptoeing around the house. 

Good grief. 

We are certainly aware that he comes from strong lines. I KNOW those lines and KNOW whats in the background, I HAVE a dog out of the Kassler Kreuz Kennel.


Do yourself a favor and ask everyone of the Schutzhund Handlers AND your helper if it is a good idea to have your kids crawl all over your dog while he's in a crate with a Bully Stick. I guarantee you most people will advise you NOT to have the kids mess around with a dog IN A FRICKIN CRATE while he's got highly valuable resources. I'd even leave a Golden Retriever or any other breed out there, alone in his crate. 

ESPECIALLY A DOG LIKE HIM! 

And that has NOTHING to do with tiptoeing around the dog! 

Gash darnit, grow some DOG SENSE! 

And now I'm out!


----------



## KZoppa

I'm sorry but i honestly dont think you have a dominant dog. You have a dog who is maturing and testing his boundaries. This is your typical teenager time. You just admitted you were being a soft handler at training. Well, he is taking advantage of that like any "child" would. Suck it up, enforce the rules, remember that the crate is his SAFE ZONE and as such he should be allowed for it to remain his safe zone where he can escape and take a breather from the family. 

Enforce the rules and make him work for absolutely EVERYTHING he gets, including play time.


----------



## msvette2u

Lialla said:


> It was surely not a resource guarding. I asked him to down and after a correction as he wasn't listening, he threw such a tantrum it was a bit scary. All he wanted to do is to join other dogs who were training nearby and he didn't want to obey at all. He was not getting what he wanted and was doing everything he could to get his way. He was basically acting as a wild snapping, biting and screaming animal which was just caught and leashed. It took AWHILE to get him under control.
> 
> I have a dominant dog and I was a soft handler. I'm glad it got out now when it can be fixed. We'll be working with our trainer on this.


He is a puppy. A puppy with no patience which you will have to work on.

You are going to have a worse mess on your hands with your dominance drama, that's for sure, because you do not have a dominant dog. 
You have idiot trainers. And an outdated view on dogs. 

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong Give this a gander, for starters. Long downs can be a miracle worker for dogs who need to learn patience and frustration tolerance. THAT is not dominance. That's being a dog.


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> *Gash darnit, grow some DOG SENSE! *


If only half the dog owners out there had some...


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> you as well, "internet dog expert"...


 
onyx, I wasn't the one diagnosing someone elses dog - just relating what I do with my dog!

And unlike a few others I never claim to be *any type* of expert; but you believe whatever you choose to believe. And have a really nice day!


----------



## codmaster

Many opinions and ideas - and a hope for success for the OP and her puppy.


----------



## onyx'girl

That was just my signature, codmaster....you thought I was calling you one? 
Sorry you mis-understood.
Happy Training to all!


----------



## GSD07

Lialla, you do not have a dominant dog. You have a NORMAL puppy that, yes, needs training. I don't remember if you contacted the breeder. Please do. I remember you mentioned in your introduction posts that the breeder was reluctant to sell you this pup, please ask the breeder for advice. I would really hate to see this pup messed up, he seems to be a nice one.


----------



## Smoktya

Hey Cliff or OP,
is this pup from the Pico breeding my pup is from? I see that the b-day is the same and the owner lives in NJ. Just curious


----------



## onyx'girl

Here is a thread on Grom's pedigree, not the same as your Sarge's:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/175617-need-your-opinions-pedigree.html


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> He is a puppy. A puppy with no patience which you will have to work on.
> 
> You are going to have a worse mess on your hands with your dominance drama, that's for sure, because you do not have a dominant dog.
> You have idiot trainers. And an outdated view on dogs.
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong Give this a gander, for starters. Long downs can be a miracle worker for dogs who need to learn patience and frustration tolerance. THAT is not dominance. That's being a dog.


Also, CRATE GAMES is a great Game for puppies. 

It teaches self an impulse control. Might be a thing the OP should do with the pup. 




And by the way. We learned Crate Games from Debbie Zappia who is a very very high decorated Schutzhund Handler and Trainer. Just saying...


----------



## Lialla

Smoktya said:


> Hey Cliff or OP,
> is this pup from the Pico breeding my pup is from? I see that the b-day is the same and the owner lives in NJ. Just curious



No, you can sleep in peace


----------



## Jack's Dad

Holmeshx2 said:


> OMG why do those that always want to be so physical to show how "dominant" they are simply refuse to realize those with other methods are NOT saying to LET the dog growl or when the dog does growl to simply back off...
> 
> NO ONE is saying to back off when the dog growls.. we are saying train a dog BEFORE they growl to not growl. We are saying if the dog has not been trained to do this and the dog DOES growl a simple correction for the growl (a verbal no sounds like a good idea since the dog did a verbal warning as well) and then in the future dont give high value treats or leave him alone when he has them until you have trained him not to growl.
> 
> WHY in the world can people not comprehend this? No one said let the dog growl, no one said back away in fear after the growl, no one said reward the dog when it growls by giving it something better (at that moment) what everyone did say is to TRAIN!!!
> 
> Gosh I think alot of people need to go back to elementary school and re-learn reading comprehension.


I'm not sure that people don't understand.
The problem for me on this thread has been that a lot of the posts are about different ways of training puppies.
The OP's past that point and was asking what to do now.
There is good advice in this thread but it is so mixed up with arguing over which training methods are the best.
If I had a dog who bit someone and was looking for advice on what to do it wouldn't help to hear how I should have trained the dog as a puppy. So if I trained it right I wouldn't have that problem.

To the OP. Are you sure this is the dog for you? If not sure, please re-think if you want to deal with it. I'm not even referring to the growl.
The growl to me was a no brainer but I sense you are not so sure of yourself now and whether this dog will fit into your family. Just a thought.
No offense intended.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm not sure that people don't understand.
> The problem for me on this thread has been that a lot of the posts are about different ways of training puppies.
> The OP's past that point and was asking what to do now.
> There is good advice in this thread but it is so mixed up with arguing over which training methods are the best.
> If I had a dog who bit someone and was looking for advice on what to do it wouldn't help to hear how I should have trained the dog as a puppy. So if I trained it right I wouldn't have that problem.
> 
> To the OP. Are you sure this is the dog for you? If not sure, please re-think if you want to deal with it. I'm not even referring to the growl.
> The growl to me was a no brainer but I sense you are not so sure of yourself now and whether this dog will fit into your family. Just a thought.
> No offense intended.


Actually, we do say to train the dog. 

Whats argued over is whether or not you have Kids messing with a dog in a crate while he's got a highly valuable resource. 

As for training the dog and what the right training is, I can't tell without seeing what is going on, however Crate Games, Mind Games, Engagement training is never a wrong thing to do. 

The pedigree indicates a strong dog, however without seeing the dog yourself you don't know if it is dominance or just regular puppy behavior. 

If the dog doesn't fit into the family, she should talk to the breeder. If the breeder already was hesitant I am pretty sure that he/she will take the dog back and place it in a more suitable home.


----------



## Lialla

I remember a guy in one of the threads who shot his dog for snapping at his child. I really like this guy. Another effective method to deal the a problem, not very positive though. 

Mrs. K Don't twist the situation, my kids don't don't crawl anymore, they are too big for that. No, they usually like to take the stick out of his mouth by force and tease him with it.

On a serious note, Jack's Dad, thanks for bringing some sense into this thread. As far as to if he is the right dog, I like challenges, i lack experience of course, and that's the reason for this thread. But this dog either fits, or he'll make a nice rug )


----------



## onyx'girl

> But this dog either fits, or he'll make a nice rug


 That is a disgusting post, even if it is a joke, and I hope you would return him to the breeder before he is ruined by your "lack of experience". He could be a great dog with the right guidance.


----------



## KZoppa

Lialla said:


> I remember a guy in one of the threads who shot his dog for snapping at his child. I really like this guy. Another effective method to deal the a problem, not very positive though.
> 
> Mrs. K Don't twist the situation, my kids don't don't crawl anymore, they are too big for that. *No, they usually like to take the stick out of his mouth by force and tease him with it.*
> 
> On a serious note, Jack's Dad, thanks for bringing some sense into this thread. As far as to if he is the right dog, I like challenges, i lack experience of course, and that's the reason for this thread. But this dog either fits, or he'll make a nice rug )


 
I'd growl too. Probably bite, but i'm snappy like that.


----------



## Jax08

Lialla said:


> I remember a guy in one of the threads who shot his dog for snapping at his child. I really like this guy. Another effective method to deal the a problem, not very positive though.
> 
> Mrs. K Don't twist the situation, my kids don't don't crawl anymore, they are too big for that. No, they usually like to take the stick out of his mouth by force and tease him with it.
> 
> On a serious note, Jack's Dad, thanks for bringing some sense into this thread. As far as to if he is the right dog, I like challenges, i lack experience of course, and that's the reason for this thread. But this dog either fits, or he'll make a nice rug )


You are being sarcastic because you are fed up, right?


----------



## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> I remember a guy in one of the threads who shot his dog for snapping at his child. I really like this guy. Another effective method to deal the a problem, not very positive though.
> 
> Mrs. K Don't twist the situation, my kids don't don't crawl anymore, they are too big for that. No, they usually like to take the stick out of his mouth by force and tease him with it.
> 
> On a serious note, Jack's Dad, thanks for bringing some sense into this thread. As far as to if he is the right dog, I like challenges, i lack experience of course, and that's the reason for this thread. But this dog either fits, or he'll make a nice rug )


If that wasn't sarcastic and a joke the breeder should be contacted ASAP and the dog removed from your house!


----------



## msvette2u

If you consult with the breeder, and let her know you're having issues, will that constitute some sort of breach and you'll be forced to give him back??
**No good owner would shoot an 8mo. puppy for something that was _the owner's fault. _
Heck, no good owner should shoot any 8mo. old puppy, period 

Perhaps, as others said, as a novice owner, this puppy is too much for your household.


----------



## Lialla

Jax08 said:


> You are being sarcastic because you are fed up, right?


Of course I'm fed up. 40 pages and just a couple posts with good advice. Which I appreciate by the way. 

Sometimes I really hate internet.


----------



## onyx'girl

Should never ask for training advice over the internet....best to go with a good trainer that can see what they are getting into. And be up front with everything, including this:


> Just some situations when he bolts from some people (I walked him yesterday and he saw road workers sitting down and discussing smth, he got closer to the ground and clearly wanted to get past them as quickly as possible. I had to walk him several times past workers and ask him to sit nearby, he obeyed, but was nervous). He was afraid of the rustling branches with leaves (he had a bad episode with a branch as a pup), but we worked on it and he got through it. Still walks very fast by on ornament that looks like a branch, but much better than before. And some other episodes when he freaked out, but he seems to recover


----------



## msvette2u

onyx'girl said:


> Should never ask for training advice over the internet....best to go with a good trainer that can see what they are getting into. And be up front with everything, including this:


This is the best advice yet. But I again stress, find a trainer that uses clicker/positive, the Sch people are very old-school and the babbling about dominance proves that.
At this point it sounds like you value a stable household companion over an SCH dog anyway. 
I'd hate to see that gorgeous dog ruined due to poor trainers.


----------



## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> the Sch people are very old-school and the babbling about dominance proves that.


I disagree with this statement as a general statement. I don't know what club the OP is going to but I know that not all ScH trainers are old school.


----------



## chelle

Lialla said:


> ... But this dog either fits, or he'll make a nice rug )


:thumbsdown: yeah, that's not even funny.


----------



## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> I disagree with this statement as a general statement. I don't know what club the OP is going to but I know that not all ScH trainers are old school.


True enough. And I should have said "some". But just talking about dominance, this doesn't sound like a dominant dog and it bugs the living daylights out of me when they label it all dominance. I suspect they really have no idea of which they speak.


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> This is the best advice yet. But I again stress, find a trainer that uses clicker/positive, the Sch people are very old-school and the babbling about dominance proves that.
> At this point it sounds like you value a stable household companion over an SCH dog anyway.
> I'd hate to see that gorgeous dog ruined due to poor trainers.


Not all SchH trainers are old-school. The best trainers are the ones that can utilize every method and use exactly what is needed at the moment. I prefer positive training as well but sometimes a little compulsion isn't all that bad either. Sometimes a corrections is worth more than dragging a problem out over months and months and months. Just bring it to the point and be done and over with. 

With dogs that are very possessive the OUT is the most valuable command and sometimes trading games isn't the way to go either. Some dogs don't trade. They hang on to what they have. 

My bitch learned the out with 15 months. Like I said, she was completely green and everything, even dead strings were prey. Extremely possessive. You wanted to take it away, she would hold onto it even more. 

With Zappia, she learned the out within a 5 minutes. I specifically asked our trainer to help with the out. With Indra it wasn't an issue since I got her with 8 weeks. Nala, with 15 months of age, a totally different caliber of dog I didn't want to mess it up. 

5 minutes with the trainer, consistent training at home. I can tell her to out and she drops anything into my hand. In fact, it's the beginning of the retrieve already. It's pretty much backchaining it. 

Quitting SchH training wouldn't be the right way to go and not all SchH trainers are old School. Our trainer is highly decorated and was on the world team several times. She utilizes the clicker, does LOTS of shaping, pinch, e-collar, pretty much anything you can think off. 

SchH should give her the tools to handle the dog, however some dogs are simply too much for some people. Not saying this is the case, though.


----------



## Jack's Dad

What I was trying to point out is that when people ask questions often the threads take off and a simple question goes unanswered.
If you concede that Lilla made a mistake by reaching in the crate and then letting her child come to close, then what should she have done right then? When he growled and lunged. What should she have done? What should she do in the immediate future? If those questions were addressed in a relatively polite manner this thread should have been no more than a few pages.


----------



## msvette2u

> but sometimes a little compulsion isn't all that bad either.


Completely agreed. 
Except, "a little compulsion" has different meanings to everyone, and when having aggression issues already, I don't think the best thing to do is fling the dog around onto it's back (which many still believe in). 
In another thread by another member, they were advised by a trainer to ram their fist down a puppy's throat to keep it from biting! 
There's good trainers and bad. This trainer (who said "dominance") isn't looking at the total dog since the dog is cowering in the face of strangers on a walk.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> What I was trying to point out is that when people ask questions often the threads take off and a simple question goes unanswered.
> If you concede that Lilla made a mistake by reaching in the crate and then letting her child come to close, then what should she have done right then? When he growled and lunged. What should she have done? What should she do in the immediate future? If those questions were addressed in a relatively polite manner this thread should have been no more than a few pages.



When Judge growled at me for reaching at the bowl, I gave him a voice correction, proceeded to pick up the bowl and then put the bowl back down and left him alone. 

After that I used his meals to charge the clicker. For a couple of days he did not get any kind of meals in his bowl. He got it out of my hands and worked for it. 

Since he was that young, the behavior was nipped in the butt, I picked up his bowl to proof him off and since then I put his bowl in place and simply left him alone. 

That being said, I can take anything I want from my dogs. None of my dog is food aggressive. 
They are not being fed in their crates. The are fed together in a group. None of them gets into each others food. The bowls sit right next to each other. While I can take it away, I don't mess with them every day or single time I give them something. They sit and wait before they get their food. 

I can take away bones, toys, anything. Even the most possessive dog learned to out, quickly and without pain with our trainer. 

When they retreat into their safe zones, I leave them alone, they wouldn't retreat into that zone if they didn't want to be alone. If Yukon goes into the bath-tub I know he wants some peace from the rest. 
If Indra goes to the bed-room I know she wants to be alone. 

Every dog needs a place he can retreat to, just like we do. Even the most clingy dogs retreat to a place every once in a while.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Mrs.K said:


> When Judge growled at me for reaching at the bowl, I gave him a voice correction, proceeded to pick up the bowl and then put the bowl back down and left him alone.
> 
> After that I used his meals to charge the clicker. For a couple of days he did not get any kind of meals in his bowl. He got it out of my hands and worked for it.
> 
> Since he was that young, the behavior was nipped in the butt, I picked up his bowl to proof him off and since then I put his bowl in place and simply left him alone.
> 
> That being said, I can take anything I want from my dogs. None of my dog is food aggressive.
> They are not being fed in their crates. The are fed together in a group. None of them gets into each others food. The bowls sit right next to each other. While I can take it away, I don't mess with them every day or single time I give them something. They sit and wait before they get their food.
> 
> I can take away bones, toys, anything. Even the most possessive dog learned to out, quickly and without pain with our trainer.
> 
> When they retreat into their safe zones, I leave them alone, they wouldn't retreat into that zone if they didn't want to be alone. If Yukon goes into the bath-tub I know he wants some peace from the rest.
> If Indra goes to the bed-room I know she wants to be alone.
> 
> Every dog needs a place he can retreat to, just like we do. Even the most clingy dogs retreat to a place every once in a while.


I love this answer.
A person can take the advice or leave it but it is very specific to the situation.
Great post IMO.


----------



## Mrs.K

This is what feeding time looks like. 

Even when Indra goes into the bed with a messy bone, I don't take it away. I tell her to "Pick it up" and leave the bedroom. Usually she goes into the crate. The only dog I took a bone away from was Chris, the foster, since he drove me nuts by throwing that thing halfway through the room. 

And it has nothing to do with tip-toeing around the dogs. It's mutual respect and keeps the peace. I know I can take it away. I proof it off, once. Maintain the out in the training and know that they will give it to me regardless. But I don't do it every single time I give them something.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Holmeshx2 said:


> OMG why do those that always want to be so physical to show how "dominant" they are simply refuse to realize those with other methods are NOT saying to LET the dog growl or when the dog does growl to simply back off...


Because that wouldn't be nearly as fun as provoking an argument by pretending to misunderstand what people actually DID say. 



> *No one said let the dog growl, no one said back away in fear after the growl, no one said reward the dog when it growls by giving it something better (at that moment) what everyone did say is to TRAIN!!!*


Just had to repeat that again, in really big letters! :laugh: Not that it will matter.....


----------



## Lialla

> Not all SchH trainers are old-school. The best trainers are the ones that can utilize every method and use exactly what is needed at the moment. I prefer positive training as well but sometimes a little compulsion isn't all that bad either. Sometimes a corrections is worth more than dragging a problem out over months and months and months. Just bring it to the point and be done and over with.


That makes sense and that's what I like about my trainer. She beats the crap out of dog only when necessary. 



> When Judge growled at me for reaching at the bowl, I gave him a voice correction, proceeded to pick up the bowl and then put the bowl back down and left him alone


I hate to repeat myself, but that's what I did, only I didn't take it away i asked him to out, he growled again. And like you said mutual respect is what expected in my home.

Maybe I should have put "he has no respect and does whatever he wants disobeying and confronting his owner" instead of "dominant". Somehow this word make people freak out around here.


----------



## GregK

Lialla said:


> I took him to Sch training today, and during obidience he showed that the previous incident is just scratching a surface. It was surely not a resource guarding. I asked him to down and after a correction as he wasn't listening, he threw such a tantrum it was a bit scary. All he wanted to do is to join other dogs who were training nearby and he didn't want to obey at all. He was not getting what he wanted and was doing everything he could to get his way. He was basically acting as a wild snapping, biting and screaming animal which was just caught and leashed. It took AWHILE to get him under control.


By 'correction' do you mean a leash jerk and instantly after that he threw the hissy fit?


----------



## Lialla

Yes


----------



## Jack's Dad

Here we go again.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

This may be an 8 month old puppy rather than an 8 week old puppy, but I would use the exact same training methods with either. It would have been better if the training had started sooner, but there's no reason it can't start right now. And *WHILE YOU TRAIN* it's a good idea for everyone's safety not to put Grom in a situation where he might feel the need to growl at your kids. That doesn't mean forever, but what would be the point of provoking him further now that you know you already have a problem? 

Some issues can be completely solved with training, some can never be completely solved with training and a certain amount of management will always be necessary. But often management strategies are needed on a temporary basis while you work on training. For me, this would be one of those situations.


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## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> That makes sense and that's what I like about my trainer. She beats the crap out of dog only when necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to repeat myself, but that's what I did, only I didn't take it away i asked him to out, he growled again. And like you said mutual respect is what expected in my home.
> 
> Maybe I should have put "he has no respect and does whatever he wants disobeying and confronting his owner" instead of "dominant". Somehow this word make people freak out around here.


If I got it right, you made him obey your kids as well after you corrected him. Personally, I would have left the kids out of the picture. 

In fact, when I was that age, and a dog had growled at my parents (which never even happened in the house) they would have dealt with the dogs and we were not to give commands to the dogs. 

We had really tough dogs in the house, however each of us girls followed certain rules and we never had a single incident. We've had five males in the house. Strong working lines. None of them has EVER been crated in the house. Outside, in the backyard we had three more kennels with females. A whelping room in the garage and another one downstairs in the basement. 

We also used to have an outside property with (I don't know how many kennels and runs). 

We NEVER messed with a dogs food an we have NEVER had a single incident where a dog had bitten any of us. 

There are just things you don't do. 
The pet world, for some reasons expects a dog to bear everything you do. Take stuff away from a dog all the time, mess with the food, etc. 

If he is in that age where he starts being rambunctious and tries to test the boundaries. Don't let him obey the kids. The kids have NO business in giving the dog commands. Yes, they interact with the dog. They play with the dog but as long as the commands are not solid, the kids should not be the ones giving commands. 

Once the commands are solid and he listens to YOU primarily, then the kids can start messing with the dog. For now, teach the kids to leave the dog alone until the dog is solid. Playing, is not giving commands. 

The kids are in an age where they can understand certain rules. 

I've been a kid like that. We grew into those rules. A dog in training was not messed with by us.


----------



## Mrs.K

And again. If he has no respect. Use his meals to work him. You can do those crate games and trust me, it WILL help. I've been highly skeptical when we first started them but they make a tremendous difference. Especially with self-control and impulse-control. 

It's so simple. The concept is the most simpel concept in the world and so easy. If he has no respect make him decide for himself whether or not it's worth to have respect. You have got to be the most important in the world. And you can get that via motivation, clicker games and simply shaping the dog within your own four walls. It tires him out, makes him more respectful and motivated and overall much easier to live with. 

And the best thing is, with those crate games, it'll help you in SchH, with the long down for example. It can help you with the "sending out", with directionals... and so many other things. And the best thing about it. You don't tell the dog to do it. You give them the idea that it is the best thing in the world and they decide for themselves that they wait for you to release them. 

Also, if you give him a bully stick. Let him work for the stick. Practice NILIF. Let him sit, down or focus on you. Just a sit and then release him, give him the bully stick as a reward and DON'T take it away. Let him be. He earned it. And don't let the kids mess with him too. 
Once he ignores the bully stick and minds his own business and it's just laying around. Then pick it up and let him re-earn it later on, again.


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## msvette2u

> There are just things you don't do.
> The pet world, for some reasons expects a dog to bear everything you do. Take stuff away from a dog all the time, mess with the food, etc.


Agreed. Attributing human morals onto dogs is never a good idea.


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## shepherdmom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Just had to repeat that again, in really big letters! :laugh: Not that it will matter.....


I think we all agree TRAIN. Where the problem is, we all have very different methods of training. :help: running away very quickly. 


^^^^^ see smileys. I'm learning to use them around here.


----------



## GregK

I think your boy’s going to be a good SchH dog, Lialla. He’s got attitude. I like that. 

Fear and frustration are the main components of aggression. Sounds like he was frustrated because he wanted to be with the other dogs plus in no way wanted to ‘down’ for you.

Rather that leash-jerk correct him I would have used my foot on the leash to force him into the position - not a stomp, just gradual downward motion. Once he’s in the down just stand on the leash until he’s calm. He’s reward for being calm is he gets released from the down to continue training with you. This is all done calmly with a matter of fact attitude; no yelling, no frustration on your part ( I know, it’s hard). The attitude is, *I said down and you’re going to do it - no other options.*

Next time if you see his head’s not in the games because of the distractions, turn him away from the distraction(s) and work those sits and downs. Use food for each cue if needed, then back off it some.

Sometimes you have to take a step back with training especially under distractions.


----------



## Mrs.K

GregK said:


> I think your boy’s going to be a good SchH dog, Lialla. He’s got attitude. I like that.
> 
> Fear and frustration are the main components of aggression. Sounds like he was frustrated because he wanted to be with the other dogs plus in no way wanted to ‘down’ for you.
> 
> Rather that leash-jerk correct him I would have used my foot on the leash to force him into the position - not a stomp, just gradual downward motion. Once he’s in the down just stand on the leash until he’s calm. He’s reward for being calm is he gets released from the down to continue training with you. This is all done calmly with a matter of fact attitude; no yelling, no frustration on your part ( I know, it’s hard). The attitude is, *I said down and you’re going to do it - no other options.*
> 
> Next time if you see his head’s not in the games because of the distractions, turn him away from the distraction(s) and work those sits and downs. Use food for each cue if needed, then back off it some.
> 
> Sometimes you have to take a step back with training especially under distractions.


See, with crate games you don't need to use any of that. The dog knows how to down before you even use the command. 

Want to know how Nala learned it? 
First in the crate, without saying a single word. She was lured into the down and then fed. No world, just feeding and she decided for herself that the crate is fun. Then I called her out and sent her back in. Most of the time she goes into the down directly. Whenever I touch the clatch to open the crate she goes ino the down. 
From there she went onto the platform. She is highly motivated. 

* No jerking, no stepping on the leash... motivation, positive re-inforcement without any kind or form of compulsion yet and that comes from a Schutzhund Trainer. *

Here are the crate games:
Notice Indra on the platform doing a long down while I work Nala? Impulse control from the games. 
Crate Games with Nala and Indra - YouTube

And here the platform after the crate games. I simply had to add the command.
Platform - YouTube

Again, on the plattform later down the road
Week 5 - YouTube

None of any what you describe, with todays methods, isn't necessary.

Also, here you can see how perfectly and fast she outs. Five minutes with the same trainer and a little bit of training at home WITH THE GUIDANCE from our trainer, and she's got a perfect out. 
http://www.dog-handler.net/2012/01/nala-has-indication-down.html
Yeah, it's the indication for SAR but she's rewarded with the tug afterwards. No stress on the dog, no harsh methods.

In those videos you can see how I work on the SAR indication an then she's rewarded with the tug. Then I say "aus" and she immediately lets go of the tug. No fights, there was no stress or any harsh methods used on the dog to teach her the out. It took our trainer not even five minutes. No strong shocks from the e-collar. Simply a clean technique. She's highly motivated and no compulsion is used for her training, yet. 
http://www.dog-handler.net/2012/01/nala-has-indication-down.html


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> I think we all agree TRAIN. Where the problem is, we all have very different methods of training. :help: running away very quickly.
> 
> 
> ^^^^^ see smileys. I'm learning to use them around here.


LOL I cracked up at this.. the running and the smiley comment 

True we all have our own methods however in this case what worries me is the possibility of having "too much dog" I'm sorry you can try as much as you want but sometimes there is such a thing as "too much dog" and no amount of good intentions or "liking a challenge" is going to change it. When I first decided to get a working line pup I went to the clubs and was at every single training session 4 times a week every week for months before a female was even pregnant the trainer there talked to us forever and told us to tell the breeder to give us the dog they would keep for themselves. I went back and told the breeder I wanted a strong dog that would excel in SchH and what the trainer told me.

Without missing a beat all I heard on the other end of the phone was "NO!" In a nicer form she basically said absolutely not that I was new to everything and there was no way I could handle the dog she'd keep for herself and while she would give me a dog that was capable of doing schutzhund I definitely wasn't getting that much of a dog. I'm someone who loves a challenge and Jinx challenges me plenty there is just so much involved in creating a well balanced dog in general let alone a strong working line and handling/channeling all that darn drive when you don't know what you are doing and when doing something big like SchH its really important to have the right trainers because its not like just doing obedience, you can seriously screw a dog up.

While this pup isn't a "new" puppy the fact is he obviously doesn't have the obedience in him to know not to growl so until then you treat him like a new pup and do all the training over again and like was said before he either gets nothing of value until hes good and/or hes left alone with it and like Mrs. K said the kids stay out of it until hes better.

If he's challenging you what on earth do you think hes going to do to young children? Certainly not view them as higher ranking pack members.


----------



## selzer

I am trying not to judge, but Judge, if I read it correctly, growled the day after you got him home. This pup is eight months old and is suddenly starting to growl and snap when he had a high value treat, and had never shown this type of behavior before, which makes it sound like they have raised the puppy.

So I see the two as very different. A dog, even a pup might not respect/trust/know you the day after you bring them home. 

I can take any type of treat from any of my dogs whether they are in their crates or out of their crates, though some might try to hide it from me. They do not growl at me if I am moving near them when they have a treat or food, or getting their bowl, or whatever. I do generally leave them be with a treat, but there have been times when I have noticed them going to town on something, in their crate, and I want to be sure it is something that is ok, so I will go in for it, and I do not expect to be growled at, snapped at, or otherwise put in my place.

I think that:

1. The dog is a puppy, it is not dominant, and responding to his current behavior with typical dominant dog training might be counter-productive.

2. Hormones were mentioned a couple of times. The puppy is right at that age when lots of people throw in the towel and neuter the dog because it is being a teenager. The dog is neutered, they continue to train, and the dog gets better. Other people just continue to train and the dog gets better. I think either way the dog will get better if you continue to train through the stage, and since every dog is different, there is no way to know whether neutering will help at all.

3. The pup is showing some serious fearful responses, which really do not coincide with a dominant dog at all. While the dog may accept corrections fine, something is seriously not fine. So, maybe, you should try to repair your leadership style, and cater it to the dog's true temperament. If you continue to do whatever you have been doing, chances are someone is going to get bitten.

4. Someone said step-up the training. I say back up. You are in the teenager stage, the pup IS going to fail to do what he is expected to do some of the time. The answer is to back up, retrain, work through the stage -- not press on and overwhelm the dog with new stuff, longer, harder, tougher. If you are training 20 minutes per day in one session, break it up to two sessions of 10 minutes, and work on what the dog already knows, build his confidence by telling him to do what he knows how to do, and praising him for doing it. 

5. Set your dog up to succeed, and then praise your dog for doing so. Build the trust between you and the dog by training him positively. And in the mean time, give him the treats in his crate and shut the door to the crate and leave him be with the treat. Show him the treat, have him kennel, give him the treat, and shut the door. I could be wrong, but taking the high value treat back to his crate and eating it there was not a sign of dominance at all. A dominant dog would take his high value treat to a leader-spot not an enclosed place, but a place that commands the view of the doors and goings on, and would have others stay out of his space. Your dog took the treat to his safe place, where he should feel the least amount of interference, like he was avoiding conflict with his special thing. 

Good luck. Doing nothing is obviously not the answer. Doing more of the same, is probably not the answer either.


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## Mrs.K

> when doing something big like SchH its really important to have the right trainers because its not like just doing obedience, you can seriously screw a dog up.


Not just that. The dog can screw you up too. 
Many handlers have been "taken apart" by their "too much" dogs.

Everybody wants these dogs but not many can handle them. Nala is a lot of dog. She's not too much but I won't be able to fully work out her capabilities. In the right hands she could compete at the top of the world. Maybe I can work it out in SAR. Who knows but most definitely NOT in Schutzhund, simply because I don't have _that_ kind of experience. There are a few handlers on here that could take her to the nationals and even beyond. Simply because they can work it out.


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## msvette2u

I never wanted a high drive dog. We had one the last go-round.
We wanted an unmotivated couch potato laid back GSD and that's what we got. 
I love him to pieces, he is the perfect dog for us.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> I never wanted a high drive dog. We had one the last go-round.
> We wanted an unmotivated couch potato laid back GSD and that's what we got.
> I love him to pieces, he is the perfect dog for us.


It's not just high drive, there is so much more to a dog than that. The only reason I can handle Nala is because she is very easy to handle. 

There are dogs out there that are the exact opposite. Hard to handle, lots of fight-drive, social aggression simply not easy at all, that can take a beating and ask for more and not for novice handlers. Personally, I wouldn't want that kind of dog. Others can take onto these dogs and make them work for and with them.


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## Holmeshx2

msvette2u said:


> I never wanted a high drive dog. We had one the last go-round.
> We wanted an unmotivated couch potato laid back GSD and that's what we got.
> I love him to pieces, he is the perfect dog for us.



LOL can never hate on honesty!

I want a dog with good drives however at 12:30 at night while this crazy fool is ripping through my tiny living and dining room in my tiny 800 sq ft house (live on post) I wouldn't mind a couch potato haha


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## Holmeshx2

Mrs.K said:


> It's not just high drive, there is so much more to a dog than that. The only reason I can handle Nala is because she is very easy to handle.
> 
> There are dogs out there that are the exact opposite. Hard to handle, lots of fight-drive, social aggression simply not easy at all, *that can take a beating and ask for more* and not for novice handlers. Personally, I wouldn't want that kind of dog. Others can take onto these dogs and make them work for and with them.



This is where I question Jinx. She isn't hard to handle really.. can be nuts however its generally I didn't work her enough (either mentally or physically) She's not socially aggressive however that part in bold is TOTALLY Jinx!!!


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## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> LOL I cracked up at this.. the running and the smiley comment
> 
> True we all have our own methods however in this case what worries me is the possibility of having "too much dog" I'm sorry you can try as much as you want but sometimes there is such a thing as "too much dog" and no amount of good intentions or "liking a challenge" is going to change it. .


That is true. GSD's are not for everyone. The lines my dogs come from are cadiver dogs. If there is a dead thing in the yard they will find it and bring it to me. I can't tell you how many gross stinky things they have found and brought me over the years. I'm used to it, but I can just imagine how others would react. They would definately not be for everyone. LOL


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## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> That is true. GSD's are not for everyone. The lines my dogs come from are cadiver dogs. If there is a dead thing in the yard they will find it and bring it to me. I can't tell you how many gross stinky things they have found and brought me over the years. I'm used to it, but I can just imagine how others would react. They would definately not be for everyone. LOL


 :spittingcoffee:









That has nothing to do with Cadaver dogs... it's just dogs in general


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## Smoktya

Lialla said:


> No, you can sleep in peace


Oh no, i wasn't asking because i was wondering if this would happen to my pup, I just thought it was a coincidence that they were born on the same day and you are from NJ. Sarge has not shown this side and hopefully never will.


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## cliffson1

@ Smoktya....this is not Pico puppy, but Pico has produced puppies like this that are doing wonderful. 
Some observations.......
You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post??????
It was obvious from the beginning that this is a working dog and an owner that has limited experience with this type of dog. No dog should be growling at a person that resides in a house with them....period. Certain boundaries are established when the pup is from 8 weeks to 12 weeks that should carry for the rest of the dogs existence with that specific owner. This dog is 8 months old and issues like this should have been addressed at 8 weeks to 12 weeks. The behavoir of the dog at the Sch training at 8 months is also indicative of a lot of lacks. This dog (as i recommend to all people I sell a puppy to) should have gone to an obedience class between 12 weeks and 6 months, so that the dog could learn place, owner could learn how to approach teaching this dog, and difficulties could be exposed early when changing behavoir is much easier to do. 
Many people are giving advice on what to do who have never had this line of dog and has little clue of what to do, now the dog is older. This dog sounds fine in the proper hands, nothing wrong with the dog that consistency of application would not have addressed. 
My advice, not as an expert, but as one who has dealt with dogs of this type for countless years (and much tougher) and never had a growling issue, is for the OP to continue your Sch training for obedience and see if you can engage you TD at the club to help you address some of the in house problems. If not then seek out a very highly regarded trainer that works with your type of dog. 
You have too much dog for the owner....plain and simple, imo. Doesn't mean that you can't regain handle, but you cannot do it alone, and you certainly can't do it from taking the advice of internet trainers, many of which don't even have a dog like yours. All singular methods will not work with all dogs....if someone leads you to believe that run from them. Also, A really good trainer will not give you advice on what to do without seeing the dog....why????because more often than not the problems with these types of dogs is not the dog but the owners application in handling the dog. 
Good luck with your dog and get some help.


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## Mrs.K

> You have too much dog for the owner....plain and simple, imo. Doesn't mean that you can't regain handle, but you cannot do it alone, and you certainly can't do it from taking the advice of internet trainers, many of which don't even have a dog like yours. All singular methods will not work with all dogs....if someone leads you to believe that run from them. Also, A really good trainer will not give you advice on what to do without seeing the dog....why????because more often than not the problems with these types of dogs is not the dog but the owners application in handling the dog.


This. 

Without seeing whats really going on you just don't know whats going on. 

And because of that: Don't let the Kids mess around with the dog

On another side-note. With these kind of dogs, even if they had done all that, eventually the dog will become too much for a novice and inexperienced handler. Heck, these kind of dogs can be too much for experienced handlers. It takes a certain handler to handle these dogs, they are just not for everyone. BUT without seeing him, we don't know whether or not he is one of those dogs or not. 

If he is. I'd hate to say it, for the sake of my family and the dog, I'd give him into more experienced hands. No novice handler should have to deal with a dog like that. It sucks the fun out of it fast.


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## msvette2u

> You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post??????


Well then why are they on the forum?? These brilliant people have all this wonderful knowledge but sit there on their hands when people need help??
Makes no sense at all. 

Even the most dense of us will attempt to help - by telling the OP they need a professional trainer (one who doesn't label it all "dominance" and jerk the dog around until it obeys).


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## Mrs.K

> Even the most dense of us will attempt to help - by telling the OP they need a professional trainer (one who doesn't label it all "dominance" and jerk the dog around until it obeys).


I hate to be the one to say it. 

Sometimes, there are dogs, and this goes against everything positive training preaches, but sometimes, in the GSD world, you have dogs that are so hard that you have to do exactly that to establish an order. Some dogs constantly fight that order and no positive training in the world will change that. 

Some dogs you do it once with. Then you go from there. 

Sometimes positive training isn't the way to go, sometimes all a dog needs is a "pounce" on the head and a kick in the groins (figuratively speaking) and then you build them up. 

That being said, it shouldn't be done by a novice. It should be done by somebody who knows EXACTLY what they do. 

And yes, I hate to say it but there are dogs out there that need exactly that. 

Thats the part nobody wants to talk about because everybody screams abuse and points the finger at you for not using the clicker or positive methods.


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## msvette2u

Either way, we've said all along that it's not the place to get advice (here on the forum) that they need a professional who can see what's going on in person.
And yes, I do believe positive training can work with even those "hard" dogs. 
Because you know what?
I've never seen a trainer at Seaworld give a leash correction to a killer whale, or alpha roll one! 
And if you can say you did, then you can poo-poo at positive reinforcement and clickers, but until then, do not knock what you have not tried.
**This dog has shown fearfulness. That is not dominance. And you can easily wreck a soft dog (which this could very well be) by all the flinging and jerking the dog around that alpha/dominance style training offers. 
My point is, as it's always, been, we here on the 'net do not know, as we aren't there watching the dog and it's entire day, it's whole living situation. So why recommend harsh training over positive, when positive training _will _get you results??
Because he's a GSD, and they just need a good thrashing, after all, they are "hard dogs" and can handle it??


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## cliffson1

I sit on my hands a lot more these days because of replies like you just gave....i don't mind helping people but I am not obligated. And I certainly am not trying to go back and forth with many people who have been in the breed a minute, who have dealt with limited amounts of dogs(their own probably), and are posting solutions to every thread that comes on the board. No information is better than bad information. 
When you argue with fools from afar, then people can't tell which is which!
Their are many people today that substitute their dogs for people, a lot of advice is emotional, and most people on these forums are handlers/owners at most. A dog trainer looks at things considerably different, regardless of the method they use, so to be engaged in these topics where the emotional reponses have staked out a position, most real trainers will shake their head and not touch it because rationale goes out the window with emotion.


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## msvette2u

A minute?? You think I've "been in the breed for a minute"??
Goes to show what you know I guess (all those lovely assumptions), but you and a few others seem to like to try to "peg" members


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## Mrs.K

yeah... time to leave...everything has been said over and over and over again...take it or leave it. Not every method works for every dog. We don't know the dog. We know his papers who indicates certain traits but without seeing the dog yourself you don't know what has really happened. We don't know if the novice handler misread the signs, the kind of training they undergo at the SchH club and how he's managed/handled at home. 

Just one thing I want to stress one more time. Do Not Let The Kids Mess With The Dog While He Is In The Crate With Something You Gave Him. 
Dont let them mess with him while he's in the crate, period! 

It's just common sense. Plain ol'common sense!


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## GregK

cliffson1 said:


> Some observations.......
> You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post??????


 
No, I haven't noticed. There's plenty of very good advice on these 40 some pages.

What 'diplomatic, knowledgable' people haven't chimed in that you would have liked to have seen contribute?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well, rock em sock em robots didn't work out so well with the first owner: 
*Possible new puppy, need advice*


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## Jax08

cliffson1 said:


> Some observations.......
> You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post??????


I've been pondering that statement and decided it just makes me sad. When I see a question like this, I look for answers from you, Carmen, Chris, Lisa, Anne, Carolina, Art.

And I almost never see them. Why? I know you aren't obligated but when truly knowledgeable people who can understand the dog do not answer then it turns into a toilet paper thread (which was my fault! but the thread was so out of control at that point anyways!) and we (as a general board) lose out on insight and knowledge.

I try very hard to not overstep my "knowledge boundaries", which don't extend very far (why I told the OP to check the pedigree and get a trainer in there) but statements like this make me feel like I shouldn't even respond. I know...I know...pity me moment. lol 

But if the knowledgeable people won't answer....who should?


----------



## msvette2u

I know, yet there's a ton of people who think he just needs more harsh treatment. Scruff, shake, etc. 
It is helpful to use that little button that says "find more posts by", isn't it? 

"he breeder was very open, she told me the previous owner was very harsh with him and* he was doing alpha rolls to the pup *and now the puppy doesn't favor men and shows dominant behavior around them"


----------



## Mrs.K

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Well, rock em sock em robots didn't work out so well with the first owner:
> *Possible new puppy, need advice*


Not the same dog.


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> I know, yet there's a ton of people who think he just needs more harsh treatment. Scruff, shake, etc.
> It is helpful to use that little button that says "find more posts by", isn't it?
> 
> "he breeder was very open, she told me the previous owner was very harsh with him and* he was doing alpha rolls to the pup *and now the puppy doesn't favor men and shows dominant behavior around them"


Not the same dog. Groms sire is a Holzwinkel dog, not Karthago.


----------



## msvette2u

Yeah I just remembered, the current puppy the OP has is one that the breeder did not want to sell them, but somehow gave in.
I'd be curious as to why she didn't want them to have this puppy.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ahhh, thanks! I didn't see the thread for the new one. Sorry! 

Hope that little guy in the first thread is doing well.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks again, here is the right one! 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/164984-meet-my-boy.html


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## msvette2u

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/164984-meet-my-boy.html#post2221063 <this is grom's thread.

Stop posting at the same time I do! LOL



> I wasn't even looking at him, he was the biggest one, twice the size of his littermates, the fuzziest, the bossiest, the most energetic, but while I was checking out other pupps, I caught myself petting this crazy fuzzball. He was constantly by my side, he just clung to me and made a point to everybody that he is mine. *The breeder was reluctant to give him to us, but after seeing that he is so set on us, she gave in. *


----------



## cliffson1

@Msvette.....When I wrote that post I was not writing it singularly to YOU! I don't know how long you have been in the breed, and frankly when it comes to giving solutions to problems, its not how long you have been in the breed, but moreso how much involvement you have in training and problem solving other peoples dogs. You could be a dog trainer for one hundred years for all I know, i just know I keep hearing about your adversion to yank and crank....but my remarks were in general.
As for pegging members, I don't "peg" members, BUT I do assess the quality of the responses given. There's a difference. 
I read 40 pages also, of which people gave specifics on what to do based on what?????There isn't even consistency in the picture painted of what the dog is!!!! Some people felt the dog had issues....again based on what?????? Of course the level of handling of the dog isn't really known, except for some of which; we were told the owners have done. How does the dog handle issues, has the dog been given a free ride in direction?????So many things we DONT know and people are giving out specific things to do with this dog. CRAZY!! The dog is now 8 months, not eight weeks, to some that may mean another type approach because the dog is ingrained in what's it is doing. So many variables involved at this stage that we don't know!
Look, I still think the OP should get some first hand advice from somebody assessing the dog who can read dogs, and also the relationship between owner and handler. 
Always, amazes me when people ignore the meat of what I say and take something peripheral and make a case.....LOL.


----------



## Mrs.K

Honestly, I don't even care anymore. Why feed pearls to the pigs if it's bad advise anyways to say "Have the Kids not mess with the dog."
Establish rules within your household and quit with the pet mentality. 

There are certain positive methods that might make a huge difference. 
The could be a hard one, it could be a soft one, dogs growl, puppies growl and go through all different sort of stages but you just don't know if you don't see the dog. 

I am a rational person. I am not the most diplomatic person either because it gets frustrating to read the same **** over and over and over again. 

There are certain rules that should be lived by and these rules are (you get them even in the SV Welt Pamphlet when you sign up as a member and they stress that for the kids of pet dog owners), let me translate them for you:

1. treat the dog as you would like to be treated
2. a dog can look friendly and cute, never go to the dog without the permission of the owner
3. Avoid anything a dog could take as a threat
4. don't start a starring contest with the dog
5. do not attempt to tug on his tail, don't step on it
6. DO NOT MESS WITH AN EATING DOG, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TAKE HIS FOOD AWAY
(FROM THE SV PAMPHLET!)
7. if you play with the dog, don't roughouse and don't get close to his teeth
8. don't try to break up a dog fight
9. even if you are scared, do not ever run from a dog
10. you have two hands to hold onto something your dog only has his teeth
11. if a child plays with a dog an adult should be close by supervising
12. every dog is different

These are the 12 GOLDEN RULES from the SV Welt mainly written for pet dog owners and their kids. Common Sense!


----------



## msvette2u

> You could be a dog trainer for one hundred years for all I know, i just know I keep hearing about your adversion to yank and crank....but my remarks were in general.


Yes and I'm not sure if you know we handle around 150 different, dogs a year, rescue dogs, and the worst ones are those who got "yanked and cranked". We've not had a dog come here that's been trained with positive training but had to rehab a bunch who people got all physical on their asses. I'd rather a dog with _no_ training than one who was physically disciplined (whatever that entailed). 

And because I've seen positive reinforcement turn very tough cases around, cases that, had you gone all physical on, would have turned around and bitten worse. 

And thank you for the clarification, I won't assume any more if you won't


----------



## Jax08

Jax08 said:


> I've been pondering that statement and decided it just makes me sad. When I see a question like this, I look for answers from you, Carmen, Chris, Lisa, Anne, Carolina, Art.
> 
> And I almost never see them. Why? I know you aren't obligated but when truly knowledgeable people who can understand the dog do not answer then it turns into a toilet paper thread (which was my fault! but the thread was so out of control at that point anyways!) and we (as a general board) lose out on insight and knowledge.
> 
> I try very hard to not overstep my "knowledge boundaries", which don't extend very far (why I told the OP to check the pedigree and get a trainer in there) but statements like this make me feel like I shouldn't even respond. I know...I know...pity me moment. lol
> 
> But if the knowledgeable people won't answer....who should?


To late to edit....maybe my question should have been....

HOW do we get answers from the people we think know the answer? PM's? I know Carmen and Chris answer PM's in length. Do others answer PM's? 

It does get very frustrating to ask a question when you need help and have it turn into a fight or have silly answers posted and turn the topic of the thread before an answer is even given.


----------



## Mrs.K

What more advise do you want to hear on a topic like that? 

There is only one right answer: Get a frickin trainer!

We don't know the dog. We know the lines but the lines doesn't have to do squat with what is going on in that household. We don't know it without knowing the dog. It can have everything to do with it or maybe it's just a dog being a dog. 

What more than, have your kids follow the rule not to mess with the dog, get a trainer and work on the issue and just leave the darn dog alone in his crate and don't mess with his food. If it is too much dog for you, contact the breeder. Maybe it's better to place the dog in a more suitable home and get a dog that suits you better. 

Carmen, Chris or anyone else will give you the same answer, maybe in a more diplomatic way though!

:headbang:


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## Jax08

Mrs. K - Are you talking to me?! Did you not understand that mine was a general question? I made it pretty clear. So lose the 'frickin' attitude..the question wasn't directed at you. So why did you feel the need to respond so belligerently? Do you just want to pick a fight?

My advice, consistently through this thread, was get a trainer and to contact Cliff or Carmen or someone who could eval the pedigree.

My lunch time is over...I'll leave the fighting up to those that have all day to do it.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Jax08 said:


> HOW do we get answers from the people we think know the answer? PM's? I know Carmen and Chris answer PM's in length.


Chris does, but sometimes Carmen doesn't answer them at all.


----------



## Holmeshx2

Jax08 said:


> I know Carmen and Chris answer PM's in length. Do others answer PM's?


Chris answers everything in length.. one of the MANY reasons I love her!! :wub:



msvette2u said:


> Yes and I'm not sure if you know we handle around 150 different, dogs a year, rescue dogs, and the worst ones are those who got "yanked and cranked". We've not had a dog come here that's been trained with positive training but had to rehab a bunch who people got all physical on their asses. I'd rather a dog with _no_ training than one who was physically disciplined (whatever that entailed).
> 
> And because I've seen positive reinforcement turn very tough cases around, cases that, had you gone all physical on, would have turned around and bitten worse.
> 
> And thank you for the clarification, I won't assume any more if you won't


You've read my responses on this thread and others and I believe big time in positive reinforcement however I also believe there is a time for correction and after more information coming out I really can't say what to do fully to help this out. I can say some things I already did that would be a band-aid but she definitely needs more then a bandaid at this point with all the other things that came to light. However, while you've seen the bad side of "yank and crank" alot of times thats on a weak dog that has genetic issues and from an owner that has no clue what in the heck they are doing they just decide to fully dominate the dog and it screws them up.. doesn't mean that when done properly by the right person on the right dog at the RIGHT TIME it can not be exactly what is required. As much as I fought with Shepherdsmom it was because she was talking about a cookie cutter approach and you are also with only positive training I just don't think it came be all one or the other especially with every dog.. just not possible. While a simpler dog as a pet can do all positive this dog is a dog bred for more (didn't know that before sorry) and she is training in Schutzhund, sometimes all positive just doesn't work, if a dog has someones arm in their mouth you need complete control over that dog not sitting there with training treats bribing him to release.. thats part of initial training however once the dog is taking bites the bar has been raised on expectations and sometimes you have to take the choice away from the dog and force them to comply.. sorry

Also talking about positive training vs correction on a killer whale is something COMPLETELY different. It's a different animal different temperament different mind set, different goals etc.. You really can not even begin to use that kind of logic of course no one is going to "alpha roll" an animal thats bigger then a truck but in the wild whales don't even do that as a correction (not that I agree with alpha rolling dogs either) but it's just the fact that they are wired differently you can not take one training method and apply it to other species.




cliffson1 said:


> @Msvette.....When I wrote that post I was not writing it singularly to YOU! I don't know how long you have been in the breed, and frankly when it comes to giving solutions to problems, its not how long you have been in the breed, but moreso how much involvement you have in training and problem solving other peoples dogs. You could be a dog trainer for one hundred years for all I know, i just know I keep hearing about your adversion to yank and crank....but my remarks were in general.
> As for pegging members, I don't "peg" members, BUT I do assess the quality of the responses given. There's a difference.
> I read 40 pages also, of which people gave specifics on what to do based on what?????There isn't even consistency in the picture painted of what the dog is!!!! Some people felt the dog had issues....again based on what?????? Of course the level of handling of the dog isn't really known, except for some of which; we were told the owners have done. How does the dog handle issues, has the dog been given a free ride in direction?????So many things we DONT know and people are giving out specific things to do with this dog. CRAZY!! The dog is now 8 months, not eight weeks, to some that may mean another type approach because the dog is ingrained in what's it is doing. So many variables involved at this stage that we don't know!
> Look, I still think the OP should get some first hand advice from somebody assessing the dog who can read dogs, and also the relationship between owner and handler.
> Always, amazes me when people ignore the meat of what I say and take something peripheral and make a case.....LOL.


I will say I was guilty of this. While I don't have a ton of experience and am a rather green handler (especially when it comes to harder dogs that actually CAN work) I have learned to listen to those wiser then me.

You will never catch me debating with certain people EVER. There are those on this board that when they speak I shut the heck up and listen Cliff is one of them, Chris is another a few more on training and dogs in general, a few for health things and then a few on raw related topics.

When I have something I can't figure out I ask Chris and its one of her dogs so she knows her fairly well and can generally help me however sometimes even she will tell me she can not say without actually seeing Jinx in person and that she has theories but no way to know for sure.

I think THIS is why some of those more experienced haven't jumped into this thread either they haven't seen it or already were wise enough to know there was more under the surface and couldn't speak to it specifically without being there.

After more details have come out it's definitely more difficult to recommend anything other then get a good trainer involved and a good helper who can see the dog hands on.. again I say GOOD because you don't want the dog getting messed up with someone who is a wanna be trainer and thinks there is one solution to all problems (I have a schutzhund club here that does this and it took awhile to realize they were bad and to not listen to them or let them touch my dog)

Of course there are a few things that can never hurt like engagement work, not letting the kids work with the dog until the handler and the dog are better set, backing off on giving any high value treats or lock dog in crate when giving them and leaving dog alone etc.. however there are much bigger things here then just growling over a treat. 

My advice earlier in the thread on not messing with a dog after you give them something still applies in general to basically all dogs but just not a "solution" to this dog.


----------



## msvette2u

> you are also with only positive training


You cannot err with positive only.
You can mess up big-time if you go physical corrections on a dog who is not built to take it. 
And since we're not there _in the room with this dog_, I'd err on the side of caution and recommend positive only training, and the trainer can assess the dog once they get there, in person, to a trainer, in real life.


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> You cannot err with positive only.
> You can mess up big-time if you go physical corrections on a dog who is not built to take it.
> And since we're not there _in the room with this dog_, I'd err on the side of caution and recommend positive only training, and the trainer can assess the dog once they get there, in person, to a trainer, in real life.


Not if a dog is worked in Schutzhund. 

Schutzhund is a totally different beast and that is one of the reason why you won't see those, that do it, reply to a topic like that. 

We have a novice handler, that started to do Schutzhund, mainly for fun, possibly with a too much dog, at an age where the dog is starting to challenge you, a pet mentality and two eight and nine year old kids. 

That is the kind of topics where they will keep their hands off because any answer they give, might not be the one the OP or a pet person wants to hear. 

In Schutzhund a clicker, sometimes, just doesn't get through to the dog and there are situations where you've got to use compulsion even with dogs that are not as hard and tough as the "real" ones that a novice shouldn't have. 

Schutzhund is not agility. Schutzhund is so simple yet so complicated. I've never titled a dog, I only watched from the sidelines my whole life. I believe highly in positive methods and there are dogs out there that are certainly worked with the clicker for the most part but you will get to the point eventually where you simply can't get through to the dog with a clicker and where you've got to utilize another technique. 

You need to see it, to understand it. You need to see a real, hard, driven dog being worked on the field to understand. I've seen them in novice hands, in experienced hands and the dog was still too much and in hands that could handle them. Trust me, a clicker in those situations wouldn't have helped.


----------



## msvette2u

For those confused about the food aggression/trading method. 
Tell me that continuing to take this puppy's bowl was helping? This puppy was geared to see eating as a stressful, horrible event in which he was fighting for his life (without food, life ceases). 

Mrs K I think the family in question needs to get their dog under control in a kind manner before progressing with Schutzhund training. They need to find out if he's even the right dog for their home, as others have said, quite possibly he is not.


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> Not if a dog is worked in Schutzhund.


And I never said Sch training, did I? I said positive reinforcement, they need to rebuild and strengthen the bond with the pup before continuing to have him in their home.


----------



## Jack's Dad

cliffson1 said:


> I sit on my hands a lot more these days because of replies like you just gave....i don't mind helping people but I am not obligated. And I certainly am not trying to go back and forth with many people who have been in the breed a minute, who have dealt with limited amounts of dogs(their own probably), and are posting solutions to every thread that comes on the board. No information is better than bad information.
> When you argue with fools from afar, then people can't tell which is which!
> Their are many people today that substitute their dogs for people, a lot of advice is emotional, and most people on these forums are handlers/owners at most. A dog trainer looks at things considerably different, regardless of the method they use, so to be engaged in these topics where the emotional reponses have staked out a position, most real trainers will shake their head and not touch it because rationale goes out the window with emotion.


I agree with Cliff. There are certain topics that people are so emotional about that there is really no point in arguing.

On the subject of positive training, I'm all for it as long as it works. The problem arises because people fail to recognize that all dogs are not the same and everyone cannot be treated the same.

I will talk on here about things that have worked for me but I also know that my experiences are limited to the many dogs I have owned. I'm not a dog trainer. There are a lot of dogs that I would not have a clue as to how to deal with them.

So when one of these aggression threads comes up I don't believe it is in the best interests of anyone or the dog to say, find a trainer but make sure it is only a positive/clicker type trainer.

I don't think comparing Killer Whales to a fear aggressive dog means anything. I doubt that dogs and circus tigers are trained the same either.

Also don't understand why the alpha roll comes up all the time. I seriously doubt that it is used much anymore by many trainers.

I also think the more knowledgeable people don't respond much because they have to wade through so much as Cliff put it (emotion based views) that they probably won't be listened to anyway.


----------



## Jax08

Holmeshx2 said:


> Chris answers everything in length.. one of the MANY reasons I love her!! :wub:
> 
> .


She's helped me out a couple of times. Very complete answers.


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube
> 
> For those confused about the food aggression/trading method.
> Tell me that continuing to take this puppy's bowl was helping? This puppy was geared to see eating as a stressful, horrible event in which he was fighting for his life (without food, life ceases).
> 
> Mrs K I think the family in question needs to get their dog under control in a kind manner before progressing with Schutzhund training. They need to find out if he's even the right dog for their home, as others have said, quite possibly he is not.


msvette2u, I said the very same things you just posted.


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> I also think the more knowledgeable people don't respond much because they have to wade through so much as Cliff put it (emotion based views) that they probably won't be listened to anyway.


100% agree with this. So I pledge to never divert a thread to toilet paper again.


----------



## msvette2u

Andy the OP themselves said they had their eye on a puppy that was returned, and the person who owned it for a short time _did alpha rolls._
Whether trainers use it or not in their sessions doesn't mean people don't still do it all the time.

With aggressive dogs the last thing you want to do (in general training sessions) is start getting physical because it just heightens their aggression response. 
The best thing you can do is figure out how to lessen the aggression response, not hype it up. 

Others have mentioned on here over and over that responding to some dog's "aggression" by aggressing back would have resulted in a badly torn up owner/trainer. 

If you start w/positive and it works then it's a win-win. If you start with positive and it doesn't work, you can revert back and find a new trainer who uses corrections but wouldn't it be best for the dog to look to positive first?


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> msvette2u, I said the very same things you just posted.


Yes but then you turn around and argue about positive training methods. I never said train in Sch with it and you insist I'm talking about that. I am not.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube
> 
> For those confused about the food aggression/trading method.
> Tell me that continuing to take this puppy's bowl was helping? This puppy was geared to see eating as a stressful, horrible event in which he was fighting for his life (without food, life ceases).


Holy  The beginning was just painful to watch. That poor puppy, and what STUPID misguided owners - that was a situation 100% created by bad "training"!!! :angryfire:


----------



## msvette2u

But it's also a situation recommended by some people on here and practiced by them as well. 
"Take the dish", you should be able to "take the dish" (or treat). 

I know. I was on pins and needles when the cat walked by!!


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> Yes but then you turn around and argue about positive training methods. I never said train in Sch with it and you insist I'm talking about that. I am not.


No, I don't argue them. I simply say that there is a point where you can't get through with the clicker anymore. I am not saying that it is right or wrong for the puppy in question. You need to see the dog with your own eyes to really know whats going on. 

Who knows if the given information is even correct information? There is a lot of emotion involved. It's a novice handler. Is she reading the dog correctly? Is it because of his pedigree or because she created the situation in the first place? 
Is the dog really too much dog for her or simply a normal puppy out of working lines and the owner is just overwhelmed with the situation and created the mess with her misreading and re-inforcing the wrong behavior? 

A normal working line puppy can be too much for a novice handler, even when they did all the research in the world and are up for a challenge. 

We don't know if or how the pedigree has anything to do with the situation. We don't know if the situation was created by the owner or not. We have not seen the dog. We don't know what is going on. 

Yes, positive methods are preferred but we don't even know if the dog has any kind or form of food aggression at all. The dog was IN HIS CRATE with a highly valuable resource. Just because he growled in that situation (which I do NOT CONDONE) doesn't mean the dog is food aggressive. It was the first time the dog has ever done it. 

Yes, a trainer needs to be consulted. A good one, a trainer that knows dogs like that, that can look at the pedigree, the situation and the dog and knows how to handle the situation and how to teach the novice handler to deal with the dog and will be HONEST with the novice handler and says it how it is, without trying to screw her over i.e "hey, thats a nice dog, I want to keep it for myself." (things like that happened before).


----------



## Holmeshx2

Mrs.K said:


> A normal working line puppy can be too much for a novice handler, even when they did all the research in the world and are up for a challenge.


How true!! I thought I did all the research in the world and that I was completely ready... however every day is a new opportunity.challenge with this girl over here. I'm glad I went to a breeder that matched me because she is able to handle MY mistakes without it screwing her up. She is by no means a soft low key dog so she definitely challenges me however I can screw up without screwing her up which I love she is the perfect dog to make mistakes with. Some dogs just aren't good for novice handlers. When I screw up if it knocked Jinx back in training I really don't know what I would do but I'm sure if she was a different dog our situation would be rather tragic because lord knows we have made mistakes over here. I've had plenty of dogs before I have even had shepherds before however when you break over into some of these stronger dogs it's a completely different ball game and you really wouldn't even begin to understand unless you've been there in one way or another.


----------



## msvette2u

msvette2u said:


> You cannot err with positive only.
> You can mess up big-time if you go physical corrections on a dog who is not built to take it.
> *And since we're not there in the room with this dog, I'd err on the side of caution and recommend positive only training,* *and the trainer can assess the dog once they get there, in person, to a trainer, in real life.*


Mrs K I think you missed my post 
I never gave Sch advice for the simple fact I never have done it. I don't care what they do out there - I care about this dog having issue in it's home, _so it can stay safely in it's home. _


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> Mrs K I think you missed my post
> I never gave Sch advice for the simple fact I never have done it. I don't care what they do out there - I care about this dog having issue in it's home, _so it can stay safely in it's home. _


The point is. She does Schh with the dog. At least she has started with it. The dog indicates very strong working lines. She has a TD (training director) at the Club who should have the expertise to make an educated decision what the dog is. Is it a soft dog, has the dog fear issues, is it a hard and dominant dog that is challenging her or is it just a normal puppy. 

With that the TD can help her resolve the issues with the puppy, implement all that into the training and teach her how to manage her dog. If I remember correctly she said her trainer works like ours. Uses any training resource and aid out there, clicker, pinch etc. 

If I think my trainer is that good, I go to the trainer directly and simply work with my trainer on that problem. 

That is why I put SchH into the picture.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

*I'm sitting on my hands *(good line cliff I had to borrow it


----------



## Mrs.K

Just lock the darn thing already, will ya?


----------



## msvette2u

Yes, good idea, before someone else has the last word


----------



## msvette2u

JakodaCD OA said:


> *I'm sitting on my hands *(good line cliff I had to borrow it


LOL Just FTR I said "sit on your hands" first!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I musta missed that in the 40 something pages LOL


----------



## msvette2u

I forgive you. LOL


----------



## selzer

Mrs. K, you are saying that the dog only growled, but the title of this thread is, 8 month old snapped at my child. If this pup took two more steps and latched onto an ankle or butt or hand, you and someone's gramma, and a few others would be leading the charge to euthanize the puppy. So this is kind of scary.

I am with msvette, positive methods are generally not going to cause the dog to get worse while you are waiting to get the dog evaluated or work with a trainer. 

It is upsetting that most of the people who are into Schutzhund, are staying away from this thread, as the OP HAS taken the pup to training, and the trainer is saying the pup is showing dominance plain and simple, and out of the other side of the mouth is saying the pup's reactions are indicative of lacking in confidence/temperament if I read that correctly.

I am not familiar with schutzhund, but my guess is that in the US of A, you probably have awesome schutzhund trainers, and crappy schutzhund trainers, and trainers every inch of the continuum in between, like every other kind of dog trainer out there. If this person has a trainer who is awesome on training dogs with correct temperament schutzhund, but is not so good at evaluating dogs, it can be a problem. If the trainer counts on this person's patronage, there is incentive for the individual to make a diagnosis that suggests continuing with them, even if the trainer is totally out of her league. And, that suggests she realizes she is, which she may not. So when we all say, take the dog to a trainer, take the dog to a trainer, we do not have any special sticky on how to recognize a good trainer.

Dogs do have different personalities, learning styles, confidence levels, etc. But the idea that a dog with a good amount of confidence cannot be trained with positive methods is ridiculous -- though I am not saying people are actually saying that. What is said is that SOME dogs need a different approach. Perhaps. If you saw away at a horses mouth with the reigns, you can make them hard mouthed, so that they cannot, will not respond to a lighter touch. I think we can do this with dogs too. I think we train them not to listen until we reach a certain pitch, or until we get physical. I don't like to think that the damage is permanent though.


----------



## cliffson1

There are some recent posts by people like Jack's Dad, that understand my feelings.
One last thing, there is nothing new under the sun including dog training. The method of dog training is not as important as the ability of the person who is doing the training. 
I hear the same baloney with breeding and training.....I call it the one method only works, and its usually positive people; or certs and titles people , that promote it. 
The effectiveness(other than luck) of a breeding is based on the compatibility of the dogs being matched, not by the certs, and titles possessed. The effectiveness of a training intervention is based on knowledge of the trainer in reading dogs, and understanding the proper use of various different ways to handle a dog. I have seen dogs messed up with positive only type training, just like yank and crank. The positive people often lose control of the stronger dogs with positive only(at least they are attempting positive only), and often the yank and crank people turn down the enthusiam and joy of execution in a dog, if not even worse results. In competent hands any training method will be fruitful, but master dog trainers will ASSESS the dog first to see which tool in the chest will work the best for that particular dog! I use some of every method I have encountered from Koehler to Strickland to today's ball, tug, and food reinforcements. They all work and they will ALL work to produce a happy willing working and obedient pet or working dog. 
Of course most people don't have that breadth of experience or are dog trainers, that's why with this breed, I always recommend that new owners should take their dog to obedience school between 12 weeks and 6 months. Its really as much for owners as for the dogs. This is an intelligent, strong, working breed if bred right, and though they are extremely manageable for experienced owners, you would be surprised how clueless some new owners are to owning a dog, much less a working dog. 
When I get called into a house for a private problem consultation, I certainly don't go with an attitude that positive only is the tool that I would be using from the chest. Maybe....maybe not...depends on the dog, and the problem. Just some thoughts.....


----------



## msvette2u

selzer said:


> Mrs. K, you are saying that the dog only growled, but the title of this thread is, 8 month old snapped at my child. If this pup took two more steps and latched onto an ankle or butt or hand, you and someone's gramma, and a few others would be leading the charge to euthanize the puppy. So this is kind of scary.
> 
> I am with msvette, positive methods are generally not going to cause the dog to get worse while you are waiting to get the dog evaluated or work with a trainer.
> 
> It is upsetting that most of the people who are into Schutzhund, are staying away from this thread, as the OP HAS taken the pup to training, and the trainer is saying the pup is showing dominance plain and simple, and out of the other side of the mouth is saying the pup's reactions are indicative of lacking in confidence/temperament if I read that correctly.
> 
> I am not familiar with schutzhund, but my guess is that in the US of A, you probably have awesome schutzhund trainers, and crappy schutzhund trainers, and trainers every inch of the continuum in between, like every other kind of dog trainer out there. If this person has a trainer who is awesome on training dogs with correct temperament schutzhund, but is not so good at evaluating dogs, it can be a problem. If the trainer counts on this person's patronage, there is incentive for the individual to make a diagnosis that suggests continuing with them, even if the trainer is totally out of her league. And, that suggests she realizes she is, which she may not. So when we all say, take the dog to a trainer, take the dog to a trainer, we do not have any special sticky on how to recognize a good trainer.
> 
> Dogs do have different personalities, learning styles, confidence levels, etc. But the idea that a dog with a good amount of confidence cannot be trained with positive methods is ridiculous -- though I am not saying people are actually saying that. What is said is that SOME dogs need a different approach. Perhaps. If you saw away at a horses mouth with the reigns, you can make them hard mouthed, so that they cannot, will not respond to a lighter touch. *I think we can do this with dogs too. I think we train them not to listen until we reach a certain pitch, or until we get physical. I don't like to think that the damage is permanent though.*


:thumbup:


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## selzer

I am not a positive only person either, at least not in some definitions. I have no problem with telling a dog NO, or in placing a dog in the position I want them in, rather than nagging them until they do it by accident. I don't know why the moment someone suggests a positive approach to managing a situation, they are immediately labeled with positive only, which is looked on with the same disdain as bleeding heart judges or PETA people or well whatever philosophy we think is totally out there.

There are other ways to deal with a dog than slapping a prong collar on it, nicking is nads, and showing it who is boss, through whatever adaption of NILIF fits your lifestyle. 

I think that if we were to make a thread in how to recognize a good trainer, it would be someone who does have a huge tool box, and evaluates both the dog and the owner to find the method and tools that will work between this owner and this dog.


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## msvette2u

selzer said:


> I am not a positive only person either, at least not in some definitions. I have no problem with telling a dog NO, or in placing a dog in the position I want them in, rather than nagging them until they do it by accident. I don't know why the moment someone suggests a positive approach to managing a situation, they are immediately labeled with positive only, which is looked on with the same disdain as bleeding heart judges or PETA people or well whatever philosophy we think is totally out there.
> 
> There are other ways to deal with a dog than slapping a prong collar on it, nicking is nads, and showing it who is boss, through whatever adaption of NILIF fits your lifestyle.
> 
> I think that if we were to make a thread in how to recognize a good trainer, it would be someone who does have a huge tool box, and evaluates both the dog and the owner to find the method and tools that will work between this owner and this dog.



Another great post! You are on a roll.
FTR, I don't use a clicker. I have no freaking clue how to do it. I mean I know how but it's tough to catch it just right and I have nowhere near the patience needed to do it.
But I know it works. And I know it won't mess a dog up worse and in fact will most likely help it, if done correctly!

Positive trainers have tons of useful information because their mindset isn't all bogged down in outdated methods, so you get a whole ton of suggestions to work with your dog. I use many positive rewards and ideas when working with rescues and my own dogs, and _it works._
It's not the only thing I do, or have done and my dogs have prongs.
But I'll never slap a prong on a dog who is already having issues and expect that to be the right thing to do. 

Too many go on and on with their training method(s) despite the fact it is not working and the dog is getting worse. We see it on here all the time.


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## msvette2u

How to choose a trainer:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...sition_Statements/how to choose a trainer.pdf


Dominance theory--
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

The other end of the leash--
Human Bond With Dogs, Behavior of Dogs and People, Dog Psychology | Patricia McConnell Blog


----------



## onyx'girl

After reading these last few pages, I thank Cliff for spending his time on this thread. I hope Grom can get some direction and turn out to be the most astounding dog his breeder bred him to be.


----------



## Lialla

GregK said:


> I think your boy’s going to be a good SchH dog, Lialla. He’s got attitude. I like that.


Exactly, attitude. He is being a complete *******.



GregK said:


> Rather that leash-jerk correct him I would have used my foot on the leash to force him into the position - not a stomp, just gradual downward motion. Once he’s in the down just stand on the leash until he’s calm. He’s reward for being calm is he gets released from the down to continue training with you. This is all done calmly with a matter of fact attitude; no yelling, no frustration on your part ( I know, it’s hard). The attitude is, *I said down and you’re going to do it - no other options.*
> 
> Next time if you see his head’s not in the games because of the distractions, turn him away from the distraction(s) and work those sits and downs. Use food for each cue if needed, then back off it some.
> 
> Sometimes you have to take a step back with training especially under distractions.


Actually, that's what got him under control. He threw a fit like that , it wasn't as crazy and intense though, when I put a prong on him for the first time. He doesn't like to be controlled. 



Mrs. K said:


> See, with crate games you don't need to use any of that. The dog knows how to down before you even use the command.
> 
> Want to know how Nala learned it?
> First in the crate, without saying a single word. She was lured into the down and then fed. No world, just feeding and she decided for herself that the crate is fun. Then I called her out and sent her back in. Most of the time she goes into the down directly. Whenever I touch the clatch to open the crate she goes ino the down.
> From there she went onto the platform. She is highly motivated.


How these crate games are supposed to help me in my situation, you keep recommending that over and over again. What good does is do when he is confronting me and doesn't listen? He knows obedience, I started taking him to classes as soon as I got him, crate fun, mind game, positive training is what I did with him from the start. 



cliffson1 said:


> You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post??????


Sadly so, perhaps this forum is good for posting pictures only. I'm glad that you decided to join this mess though. Your input is very valuable, thank you. 



Mrs. K said:


> Honestly, I don't even care anymore. Why feed pearls to the pigs if it's bad advise anyways to say "Have the Kids not mess with the dog."
> Establish rules within your household and quit with the pet mentality.
> 
> I am not the most diplomatic person either because it gets frustrating to read the same **** over and over and over again.
> 
> 
> What more advise do you want to hear on a topic like that?
> 
> There is only one right answer: Get a frickin trainer!
> 
> We don't know the dog. We know the lines but the lines doesn't have to do squat with what is going on in that household. We don't know it without knowing the dog. It can have everything to do with it or maybe it's just a dog being a dog.
> 
> What more than, have your kids follow the rule not to mess with the dog, get a trainer and work on the issue and just leave the darn dog alone in his crate and don't mess with his food. If it is too much dog for you, contact the breeder. Maybe it's better to place the dog in a more suitable home and get a dog that suits you better.
> 
> Carmen, Chris or anyone else will give you the same answer, maybe in a more diplomatic way though!


Yes, it's definitely frustrating to read the same **** over and over again and explain again. It is all on the first page, shouldn't be very hard to read. Nobody is messing with the dog's food or annoy him in his crate. Leave "kids messing with the dog" alone, it's not the issue. Or just leave. I definitely don't need more of your same "advice".

For everybody else, we are working with the trainer. I now see where I slacked off with Grom, the trainer said he has a solid temperament, but we need to work on his behavior now to avoid big problems in the future.


----------



## codmaster

One thing about "Positive" trainers (at least the few I have worked with in this area very often will literally let a dog make their own mind up about doing a certain behavior - may not be universal of course) is this thought --

If you let a dog make up his/her own mind, then you have to accept the fact that sometimes they may not decide to do what you want them to and/or when you want them to do it. A "compulsion" approach teaches the dog that they "Must" do what you tell them to do when you tell them to do it. 

And just for the record, this doesn't mean that you hurt the dog, or that he/she won't love you and work just as happy as any PO trained dog. And a good trainer certainly doesn't "punish" a dog for not obeying a command until they are convinced that the dog "knows" the command.


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## selzer

codmaster said:


> *One thing about "Positive" trainers (at least the few I have worked with in this area very often will literally let a dog make their own mind up about doing a certain behavior - may not be universal of course*) is this thought --
> 
> If you let a dog make up his/her own mind, then you have to accept the fact that sometimes they may not decide to do what you want them to and/or when you want them to do it. A "compulsion" approach teaches the dog that they "Must" do what you tell them to do when you tell them to do it.
> 
> And just for the record, this doesn't mean that you hurt the dog, or that he/she won't love you and work just as happy as any PO trained dog. And a good trainer certainly doesn't "punish" a dog for not obeying a command until they are convinced that the dog "knows" the command.


That is just insane. No positive trainer I have ever encountered had ever held that philosophy.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> That is just insane. No positive trainer I have ever encountered had ever held that philosophy.


You are right - it is insane. But true - i.e. I asked the (PO) trainer how do I get him to walk (not heel, just walk) with me when he so loves to pull when he wants to go somewhere. Answer: Just stop till he realizes he can't go unless he comes back to loosen the leash. Then go forward. Seriously!

I asked about just turning w/o a word and walking the other direction (as a couple of other trainers had suggested). Not jerking the leash or anything just turn and walk. The idea would be that the dog has to watch you to see where you are to walk with you.

And don't get me started about addressing my dogs sometimes DA issues with the 2/3 PO trainers that I worked with here (to very little success BTW). One actually talked about "The dog must make up his mind....."!


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## GSD07

Codmaster, I actually like the dog to make up their mind and not just follow my command. I like and I want to have a thinking dog that willingly does what is appropriate in any given situation. I can't tell the dog what to do every second, I'd go crazy. I do expect the dog to make his own judgement, and, surprise-surprise, that judgement is what I want. I am talking about an adult dog here, and when I train a puppy I always have this end goal in mind.


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## codmaster

GSD07 said:


> Codmaster, *I actually like the dog to make up their mind and not just follow my command*. I like and I want to have a thinking dog that willingly does *what is appropriate* in any given situation. I can't tell the dog what to do every second, I'd go crazy. I do expect the dog to make his own judgement, and, surprise-surprise, that judgement is what I want. I am talking about an adult dog here, and when I train a puppy I always have this end goal in mind.


 
If you can live with your dog being able to decide what to do and when, that is great. More power to you, esp. if you can also live with the results when he blows you off and makes his own mind up about what HE wants to do.

So if you tell your dog to sit or to stay or ???? - I would assume that you expect him to make his own mind up whether he really wants to do it at that time? Or do you expect him to do what you told him?

The problem with this type of approach to training is what do you do when he decides that what he thinks is appropriate is directly opposite what you think is appropriate. After all, in most juristictions that I am aware of, you, the owner, are responsible for your dogs actions.

Note, as i know you would, that this does not mean that I tell my dog what to do for 100% of his time - not at all - he is a dog and can act like a well behaved dog whenever he is not under a command from me. But when he is, I expect 100% adherennce to what i told him to do (I may not get it, of course, but that is the goal and expectation).

Either 100% obedience and attention or he is 100% free to do what he wants to do (within some behavior guidelines of course!)


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## middleofnowhere

Cod - You are refusing to hear what is being said. 
The thing with training is convincing the other end of the leash what is in it for them. If you want a dog that responds largely to avoid pain, then train by methods that aren't positively motivated. If you want a dog that does what you want because it finds that rewarding, then find positive rewards for your dog's compliance.


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## GSD07

Yes, I can live with my dogs decisions because he is tuned to me and his judgement is sound. If I tell him to stay he stays because that's what he wants to do, and not because he's avoiding concequences. I trust my dog. Do you?


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## Mrs.K

You've never heard of Shaping, did you? 

You've never seen a dog actively think, offering you behaviors and deciding for himself that staying in the place waiting for a release is the best possible thing in the world. 

I pity you, Codemaster. You are missing out a great deal by not recognizing different training methods. 

You know, my dog took a crate apart, in the car, simply because another dog went on a search training, before her. Through positive reinforcement and shaping, I don't need metalenforced crates. I don't need to worry about her taking another crate apart, ruining her teeths. Through shaping, she *decided *for herself that it's more beneficial for her to calm down, and relax. 

Self and Impuls Control can be shaped and that helps in many ways you wouldn't even expect. It can help you with possessive behavior as well. The dog learns to control his impulses and decides for himself not to run after a ball or prey. He gets more focused on you, more motivated with you, he is waiting for your next move. 

You don't tell them, you make them decide for themselves that self regulation is the better choice and that is far more powerful than telling them to do it, ever is and will be. 

And if anyone has to ask what self control and impulse control is good for and how it helps in the situation, you might want to pick up a dictionary and read up about self control and what the word means. 

It's how you make a dog think and work for you. A dog making decisions in the learning process and offering behaviors is the best thing that can happen. Especially in obedience.


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## codmaster

GSD07 said:


> Yes, I can live with my dogs decisions because he is tuned to me and his judgement is sound. If I tell him to stay he stays because that's what he wants to do, and not because he's avoiding concequences. I trust my dog. Do you?


NO, I don't trust your dog (because I don't know your dog!).

He stays "because he wants to (to please you, no doubt, right?) Heh! heh!

That is great for you.


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## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> You've never heard of Shaping, did you?
> 
> *Is this a statement or a question? I can't tell from your sentence. But just in case it was a question of whether I have heard of "Shaping" - YES! *
> *And for some things it is a very good method of training, esp. for doggy tricks. And i have used it to teach my dog a number of tricks that I think are very cute. *
> 
> *But since you sound like an expert in this "Shaping" stuff, can you please explain in detail how you would (did?) use "Shaping' to teach your dog to Stay in the face of extreme distractions like say a cat running within a few feet of your dog?*
> 
> *That would really be a great aid to my education of Shaping as a Training method of teaching my dog to obey (or make his own mind to obey). Although I will certainly understand if you would be reluctant to try to explain this use of "Shaping" as a training approach.*
> 
> You've never seen a dog actively think, offering you behaviors and deciding for himself that staying in the place waiting for a release is the best possible thing in the world. *If your dog is on a stay that you told them to do, and he offers you a behavior of "Come" - would you consider that good? Or if he is on an active SIT, and he "offers" you a Down (because your dog is so smart, is that good?)*
> 
> I pity you, Codemaster. You are missing out a great deal by not recognizing different training methods. *Thanks for your kind sympathy and pity - but believe me it is really not needed and even a bit condescending and insulting. *
> 
> *Would you appreciate it if I said that I pitied you for some circumstance of your life, or maybe what things that you have expressed on this forum? I was under the impression that folks on this forum should not say anything insulting to other members? *
> 
> *BTW, I do obviously recognize and appreciate different training methods - just know that some of them are not very effective with some dogs and some trainers. *
> 
> *I, unlike some folks, think that different dogs and different situations do require different methods rather than a simplistic "One size fits all" that we all too often see.*
> 
> You know, my dog took a crate apart, in the car, simply because another dog went on a search training, before her. Through positive reinforcement and shaping, I don't need metalenforced crates. I don't need to worry about her taking another crate apart, ruining her teeths. Through shaping, she *decided *for herself that it's more beneficial for her to calm down, and relax.
> 
> *After she took the crate apart, she decided to calm down. Great! Did she then put the crate back together again? Heh! Heh! BTW, I keep my 90+ male GSD in a cloth/Fabric crate at dog shows - guess that he also decided that he really didn't want to destroy the crate either!*
> 
> Self and Impuls Control can be shaped and that helps in many ways you wouldn't even expect. It can help you with possessive behavior as well. The dog learns to control his impulses and decides for himself not to run after a ball or prey. He gets more focused on you, more motivated with you, he is waiting for your next move. * My dog learned not to be possesive very young as well and shows none of this now at 4yo. Is it ever ok for your dog to "run after Prey (cat, other dog, kid?) - if it isn't then he is not making his own mind up and if you think that he is allowed to do so, good luck!*
> 
> You don't tell them, you make them decide for themselves that self regulation is the better choice and that is far more powerful than telling them to do it, ever is and will be.
> 
> And if anyone has to ask what self control and impulse control is good for and how it helps in the situation, you might want to pick up a dictionary and read up about self control and what the word means.
> 
> It's how you make a dog think and work for you. A dog making decisions in the learning process and offering behaviors is the best thing that can happen. Especially in obedience.


Does your dog also do the dishes? Because he/she decided to. Heh! Heh!


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## msvette2u

Can there be no discussions without the mocking of other training methods than your own??


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## selzer

My dogs LOVE to do dishes. I let them get the plates, I take care of the pots and pans though.


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## Twyla

I'm gonna be shot ....

There is some good stuff buried in this thread....

You remember the old school yard line... 'my dad is better then your dad' ....?


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## selzer

I don't use punishment. I might use a word or tone to let a dog know not to do something. Nose in the trash, Eh! It is a warning, and I only have to do it once or twice, and I have yet to come home with my trash strewn all over. Why? Why is this. Do they DECIDE not to go into the trash? I really don't know, but they know that trash is forbidden, and they leave it be. I have never put a mouse trap in the trash, shocked them with a shock collar, yanked them with a prong collar, given them a swat on the butt, or duck taped rotting meat to their muzzle for a couple of days -- yes, someone actually told me they did that. 

I have never pinned my dogs to the ground to show them who is boss. I let them sleep on my bed, sit on my couch, go through doorways before me, eat before me, and they even see me cleaning up their poop. By all accounts my dogs ought to be totally out of control. But they are not. They come when I call, they stay when I stay, and most of them are pretty good at walking on lead -- the youngest are still getting there, but I am enjoying the journey. I could not enjoy jerking my dog around, or being a harsh, barking, demanding, dominant bully. That would make training a chore, I think, and living with a dog rather unpleasant.


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## onyx'girl

Today Onyx went after Kacie because Onyx didn't have a ball in her mouth. I told her to get a ball, she did, then came back and growled/bashed into Kacie. I scruffed her. After that, it was cool.
Kacie knows that Onyx isn't so much a 'danger' when she has a ball. When the ball is stuffed in Onyx's mouth, Kacie will nip at her. Funny what dogs *know*, we know, we know they know, they know we know~yet still do what they do, even when they KNOW the what the consequences will be. 
Dogs are DOGS!!! 
I love mine, I hope that Lialla loves Grom as well and sets him up to succeed. 
From the posts Lialla has written, she doesn't sound so happy with him...neither does codmaster with his companions. That is sad.


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## msvette2u

Reminds me of parents who pull the "Because I said so, that's why", or "I'm the dad/mom, that's why", instead of working with their kids and finding good solutions for everyone involved.


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## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> Can there be no discussions without the mocking of other training methods than your own??


No. Didn't I already warn you about that? oke:


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## msvette2u

40 pages ago, yes. Hope springs eternal?


----------



## Mrs.K

> *But since you sound like an expert in this "Shaping" stuff, can you please explain in detail how you would (did?) use "Shaping' to teach your dog to Stay in the face of extreme distractions like say a cat running within a few feet of your dog?*
> 
> *That would really be a great aid to my education of Shaping as a Training method of teaching my dog to obey (or make his own mind to obey). Although I will certainly understand if you would be reluctant to try to explain this use of "Shaping" as a training approach.*


As a matter of fact, we are in the middle learning that right now, mainly because of SAR. Our obedience training is primarily geared towards SAR which is why we do that kind of self and impulse control via shaping with our trainer. She put that program together and believe me. We've all been sceptical in the beginning and none of us understood what it was good for when we first started with it. 

Again, lots of tools in the toolbox. Many training methods can work together and with a great trainer it works wonder. 

Right now my girl is at the point where I can throw a bunch of balls right in front of her, and she doesn't get up. I can throw tugs, she doesn't get up. From there we move to somebody else throwing tugs, toys, balls. Offering food and she learns to refuse it and progress from there and all through shaping.

I am not an expert. I can tell that it works because I'm in the progress of doing it and can see the difference from the start till now.
Like I said, the new girl was extremely possessive and simply through the training she got more focused on me than the toy. She learned the out with the trainer, I worked on it at home, including with the impulse control. In the beginning you couldn't even have a dead string hanging out of your pocket. She would have went right at you and held on to that toy. If your finger was in between... she wouldn't have cared either. If you would have walked away, with that dead string in your pocket, she would have went after you trying to get to that string, mouthing at your arms, hands, jumping up just to get that "dead prey". Ask AbbyK9, she was there when it happened. 

If you wanted to take it away, the grip would have gotten harder. She had it, she did NOT give it up. 
Through the impulse control she started focusing on me, she doesn't blow me off anymore. She doesn't go after dead prey anymore. She can control her desires and decides herself that controlling the desire is getting her a reward faster, meaning she gets to the prey through me. It's her decision. I don't tell her to. 

Since I don't know the dog, I don't know if it would work with him but I'm almost certain it would.


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## onyx'girl

After shaping, proofing. Training never ends... and it isn't something that can be done quickly. I think the best foundation is when it takes time, regardless of the technique, quick fixes usually don't stand up very well.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> Reminds me of parents who pull the "Because I said so, that's why", or "I'm the dad/mom, that's why", instead of working with their kids and finding good solutions for everyone involved.


I'm one of those parents. I was fortunate enough to have well behaved kids. However kids are not mature enought to make wise decisions for themselves. When my teenage daughters and son wanted to stay out until 2:00 am because everybody else was going to and any number of other scenarios like that I just said no. I learned that they would have an answer for any reason that you gave them and could go on and on and on. Not in my house because I'm the adult and I said so.
As I said earlier (probably in this ongoing thread) they all turned out quite well. I guess in spite of being a fairly strict but consistent dad.
By the way it's just like training dogs you have to start early.


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## msvette2u

My husband is like that but I learned for my own sanity to be more flexible as my 2nd and 3rd came along. Instead of "no you can't go outside right now", I learned to say "yes you can go outside after you do (fill in the blank)". Same thing...different presentation. Son has LDs so it was integral to find a new way.

Anyway - yes, dog training is amazingly like raising kids.


----------



## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> After shaping, proofing. Training never ends... and it isn't something that can be done quickly. I think the best foundation is when it takes time, regardless of the technique, quick fixes usually don't stand up very well.


Exactly.


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> My husband is like that but I learned for my own sanity to be more flexible as my 2nd and 3rd came along. Instead of "no you can't go outside right now", I learned to say "yes you can go outside after you do (fill in the blank)". Same thing...different presentation. Son has LDs so it was integral to find a new way.
> 
> Anyway - yes, dog training is amazingly like raising kids.


I rather train the dog, than raising the kid though. Dog matures much faster and you are not looked at when you have them on a leash or use a clicker.


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## DharmasMom

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm one of those parents. I was fortunate enough to have well behaved kids. However kids are not mature enought to make wise decisions for themselves. When my teenage daughters and son wanted to stay out until 2:00 am because everybody else was going to and any number of other scenarios like that I just said no. I learned that they would have an answer for any reason that you gave them and could go on and on and on. Not in my house because I'm the adult and I said so.
> As I said earlier (probably in this ongoing thread) they all turned out quite well. I guess in spite of being a fairly strict but consistent dad.
> By the way it's just like training dogs you have to start early.


My parents used to say that all the time. That and "do and I say, not as I do". I may not have like it but I obeyed. My brother and I turned out just fine.


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## Mrs.K

DharmasMom said:


> My parents used to say that all the time. That and "do and I say, not as I do". I may not have like it but I obeyed. My brother and I turned out just fine.


I didn't. I was extremely rebellious and they more pressure you put on me they worse I rebelled. I hate when somebody is telling me what to do or standing right behind me watching over my shoulder when I'm working. It extremely bugs me. 

It took me years to become who I am today. You could say, compulsion didn't work so well on me. However, I still turned out well, somehow...I guess...


----------



## selzer

Outwitting dogs. If the dog is pulling/tugging and not giving up, I would out wit the dog. I think that sometimes the positive training methods have to be more varied because they need to actually outwit the dogs. Use brain, not brawn.

Just like the cop that shot the dog in the dog park should have thought, gee what would most people, who do not have guns do when this happens; before using force, maybe we should think, gee what does that 78 year old woman do when that 90 pound male pulls on the lead? How do they make the dog do what they want. It is cannot all be muscle and force.


----------



## msvette2u

Most of us turned out fine. 
But life is tougher for my husband than it is me.
Like selzer and a few others...I enjoy life much more when I'm not constantly butting heads with my kids. 
And they are turning out just fine too, as good or better than the first go-round 

How tough is it to say "Yes, in a bit" rather than flat-out "no"?

And yeah. All the spankings in the world did not work on me. I went through a very rough patch before coming back around.


----------



## Jack's Dad

DharmasMom said:


> My parents used to say that all the time. That and "do and I say, not as I do". I may not have like it but I obeyed. My brother and I turned out just fine.


Well your brother may have turned out fine but there have been some questions about you!


----------



## onyx'girl

I was that way too, Mrs. K. I was the rebel(middle child) and always questioned authority. It is biting me in the butt bigtime now as I have two teenagers that are following in my footsteps. Dogs are much easier than kids for sure.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> My dogs LOVE to do dishes. I let them get the plates, I take care of the pots and pans though.


 
Heh! Heh! Heh!


----------



## DharmasMom

Jack's Dad said:


> Well your brother may have turned out fine but there have been some questions about you!


HAHAHAHA!!! Yes, I guess the jury is not in on that just yet. I still may end up punching some butthead who pushes me too far one day and end up in the pokey. :wild:


----------



## selzer

You can kennel or crate the dogs. 

I must admit, that I kind of like the "because I said so" response. I think I used something similar yesterday, "when your mother is in charge, she can let you watch Tangled if she wants to, but I am not going to." Life is so unfair. I got to watch Robin Hood with Errol Flynn instead of Tangled because I said so.


----------



## codmaster

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm one of those parents. I was fortunate enough to have well behaved kids. However kids are not mature enought to make wise decisions for themselves. When my teenage daughters and son wanted to stay out until 2:00 am because everybody else was going to and any number of other scenarios like that I just said no. I learned that they would have an answer for any reason that you gave them and could go on and on and on. Not in my house because I'm the adult and I said so.
> As I said earlier (probably in this ongoing thread) they all turned out quite well. I guess in spite of being a fairly strict but consistent dad.
> By the way it's just like training dogs you have to start early.


 
But it makes a BIG difference the age of the child 9when we talk about humans) - reason and discuss things with a teenager - of course.

Reason with and discuss with a 1-2 yo - not likely! Would anyone explain in detail why a 2yo had to go to bed at 8pm or whatever time the parents decide on. Not I!

Or why they could not stick their finger or a fork into an electrical socket?

Or sticking to our original topic (hope no one minds), why a dog has to "Stay" until released by the owner! And no "discussion" needed!

"Because I said so" works extrmely well by the way!


----------



## DharmasMom

msvette2u said:


> Most of us turned out fine.
> But life is tougher for my husband than it is me.
> Like selzer and a few others...I enjoy life much more when I'm not constantly butting heads with my kids.
> And they are turning out just fine too, as good or better than the first go-round
> 
> How tough is it to say "Yes, in a bit" rather than flat-out "no"?
> 
> And yeah. All the spankings in the world did not work on me. I went through a very rough patch before coming back around.



I guess it all depended on what we were asking. i remember being 14 and desperately wanting to go to a New Year's Eve party some older kids were having. My mom flat out said "NO". "Why?" "You are too young" "But so and so is going and so and so is going to be there. So and so is 16, she will keep and eye on us. We will be fine." (another 14 year old friend was going)

Then out came "NO!! I SAID SO AND THAT IS FINAL!! DON'T ASK AGAIN OR YOU WON'T LEAVE YOUR ROOM UNTIL MAY!" 

I stopped asking, sulked in my room and was over it by the following week.


----------



## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> You can kennel or crate the dogs.
> 
> I must admit, that I kind of like the "because I said so" response. I think I used something similar yesterday, "when your mother is in charge, she can let you watch Tangled if she wants to, but I am not going to." Life is so unfair. I got to watch Robin Hood with Errol Flynn instead of Tangled because I said so.


You might be on to something selzer. How about small, medium, and large crates for toddlers, kids, and teenagers. Solve a lot of problems.


----------



## msvette2u

Tangled was pretty good


----------



## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> You might be on to something selzer. How about small, medium, and large crates for toddlers, kids, and teenagers. Solve a lot of problems.


yeah but the People for the Ethical Treatment of Children kind of frown on it.


----------



## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> yeah but the People for the Ethical Treatment of Children kind of frown on it.


Oops.I forgot.

How do you pronounce PETC? Doesn't have much of a ring to it.


----------



## selzer

msvette2u said:


> Tangled was pretty good


They have seen Tangled. And afterwards, the younger and more empathetic and intellectual of the twain really did not respond very positively to it, which sparked a lengthy conversation between me and her mother and one of the other residents about what is thought of the film on the adoption forums. 

I really do not know about all of that, but I can live for the rest of my life without seeing it again and I will not feel deprived. I don't know how it is for others, but when I see a really good movie, or read a really good book, I come away from it feeling the experience. When I see a crappy or mediocre movie or book, I wonder why I wasted that many minutes of my life on it.

I rarely think of the girls as being adopted, but things are everywhere if you are looking, and they are always thinking. I don't know how much they really think about it.


----------



## msvette2u

Ah part of the charm was that we had a copy before it everyone else did, and watched it for my daughter's B-day sleepover so the girls were all happy to see it 
It was more about the bonding experience (for me, anyway) than it was the movie.


----------



## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Oops.I forgot.
> 
> How do you pronounce PETC? Doesn't have much of a ring to it.


As well it should, Pet-See (PETC) lands lower on the popularity charts than Pete-Uh (PETA).


----------



## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> :spittingcoffee:
> That has nothing to do with Cadaver dogs... it's just dogs in general


Oh I've just had dogs in general and then the dogs from this SAR line. I can promise you that they find more stinky nasty things than any other dogs I've owned.  They are also very good at hide and seek.


----------



## Mrs.K

Shepherdmom, do you have a link to those pedigrees? 

I have never heard of SAR or Cadaver dog lines. It's working lines that are primarily used for SAR and lines that produce good SAR dogs. Not specifically SAR lines.


----------



## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> Shepherdmom, do you have a link to those pedigrees?
> 
> I have never heard of SAR or Cadaver dog lines. It's working lines that are primarily used for SAR and lines that produce good SAR dogs. Not specifically SAR lines.


Gosh I'm probably calling it the wrong thing. I have papers with all that info on it somewhere, but I think they are in the Safety Deposit Box. Can you link online to that stuff now? I do remember their Sire was John Henry he was an awesome search dog... His memorial used to be online on one of the SAR sites. It was so sad when he passed on. I remember him sprawled over her couch watching me play with his puppies he totally owned the place.  He was such a handsome boy. His sire was a dog she had brought over from Checkoslovokia. My breeder had been doing SAR for something like 20+ years when I met her. She is retired now of course. I met her through 4-H of all places. The trainer worked for the same SAR group. I think it might have been Pinal County SAR. Anyway the trainer talked me into playing the victim on several occasions to help train the dogs which is how I met the breeder. At the time we had 10 fenced acres. She brought one of her high spirited dogs Jae over to play and run at our house. OMG he was so much fun... He lived for his ball. Unfortunatly he was killed in the line of duty out on a search. Actually I think his memorial might be online as well. Anyway probably more than you wanted to know.


----------



## msvette2u

shepherdmom said:


> Oh I've just had dogs in general and then the dogs from this SAR line. I can promise you that they find more stinky nasty things than any other dogs I've owned.  They are also very good at hide and seek.


All dogs like to find and chew on or roll in or otherwise play with dead things. 
That's not a particular line of dog. They all have sensitive noses


----------



## Jax08

Just my completely uneducated opinion...but if a dog came from a line of dogs specifically bred for qualities that would make them good SAR dogs...wouldn't their hunt drive be stronger than your average dog so wouldn't it make sense that they would find more dead things to bring home to momma?


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Just my completely uneducated opinion...but if a dog came from a line of dogs specifically bred for qualities that would make them good SAR dogs...wouldn't their hunt drive be stronger than your average dog so wouldn't it make sense that they would find more dead things to bring home to momma?



Indra has a tremendous hunt drive and she's never brought anything dead. She rolls in stinky stuff, she likes to eat foul and stinky grass and loves to roll in super foul and stinky water but she's never brought home anything dead despite her hunt-drive. 

I don't think it has anything to do with hunt-drive or SAR lines... it's just dogs being dogs. Some love the dead stuff and bring you a dead squirrel after another, some don't.


----------



## Liesje

Jax08 said:


> Just my completely uneducated opinion...but if a dog came from a line of dogs specifically bred for qualities that would make them good SAR dogs...wouldn't their hunt drive be stronger than your average dog so wouldn't it make sense that they would find more dead things to bring home to momma?


Hunt drive is different from a dog's ability to scent. All dogs can scent better than we can, so really a GSD is no different than a Bloodhound or a Shih Tzu.


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Hunt drive is different from a dog's ability to scent. All dogs can scent better than we can, so really a GSD is no different than a Bloodhound or a Shih Tzu.


Exactly, the Hunt Drive is the desire to hunt for a prey object as in how long they search for a ball or tug and doesn't make your dog bring home dead stuff.


----------



## msvette2u

I have to say that hounds do have it over other dogs, though. Their muzzles and ears are built different to help aid them in scent-tracking.
I wouldn't have thought about it were it not for owning and fostering some Bassets.
Like...all dogs can smell/scent track, but you can tell they were bred specifically to use their noses. It's their _lives. _


----------



## Liesje

But it's also their temperament to follow a scent, hunt drive, work independently (not a clingy breed). They were bred to use their noses but not because their _nose_ is any different than any other dog.


----------



## Jax08

Liesje said:


> Hunt drive is different from a dog's ability to scent. All dogs can scent better than we can, so really a GSD is no different than a Bloodhound or a Shih Tzu.



Thanks for explaining, Lies!  Do dogs that are good at SAR have a better scenting ability than average dogs?


----------



## msvette2u

I am not claiming this is the gospel truth but I'd like to see other research on this subject - Bloodhound Breed Information 




> With the Bloodhound’s olfactory sensitivity being approximately 3 times as powerful as that of the popular working dogs such as the German shepherds and Labrador. And given their undisputed sense of smell, they have not only been able to find their quarry successfully, (some trails have been over 300 hours old), but, also pursue people who are travelling in vehicles, as well as indicating/ locating bodies in water.
> Trails performed by proven trailing Bloodhounds are permissible and accepted as evidence in courts of law through out most US States.


I watched an episode of something on Animal Planet where a Bloodhound tracked a child after it was abducted - this dog was phenomenal - the child was taken in a car on the freeway, and the car the Bloodhound was in, would stop at every offramp and when they got to the offramp the suspect and child took, the dog alerted and they found the freaking car, suspect and kid that way.
Phenomenal. 
All dogs' noses may have the same characteristics but you can't tell me a Pug or Boston could track like a Bloodhound!


----------



## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> Thanks for explaining, Lies!  Do dogs that are good at SAR have a better scenting ability than average dogs?


I would presume they are more attuned to their noses. 
Any breed can do SAR. I know they use Labs and Goldens a lot, but that's again partly due to their focus on their noses and what they are doing. I see dogs who never do scent the air or ground but rely on sight to find things. Then I see dogs who do use their noses more than others.


----------



## Lialla

msvette2u said:


> .....





Mrs. K said:


> .....


----------



## msvette2u

Nice, but there were quite a few people who had a hand in it's death with their "misunderstandings" and accusations.


----------



## GSDGunner

Lialla said:


>


:thumbup:
This thread has had more twists & turns than a tornado! Too bad the majority of it was irrelevant to the OP's problem.


----------



## Mrs.K

Honestly, there are quite a few people that has given her enough advise to do something, including me. If she can't take that advise and make it useful for herself... then it's her loss, not ours.


----------



## Lialla

Mrs.K said:


> enough advise *including* me


Are you kidding? :spittingcoffee:


----------



## Mrs.K

Go to your darn training director instead of the internet!


----------



## selzer

Lialla said:


> Are you kidding? :spittingcoffee:


I think Mrs. K's first language is German not English, though her English is a whole lot better than my Spanish, or German. Occasionally, it helps to step back and consider where someone is actually from. Sometimes what is said is not meant as a dig or to be rude.

I think there is a lot in of advice in this thread, but you will need to wade through it all and decide what makes the best sense for you and your puppy. You might have to take it all with an open mind and try things you think are crazy, though if you do not have any faith at all that something might work, I doubt it will.


----------



## selzer

On the other hand, getting PO'd and cursing is another option.


----------



## GSD07

I think the only thing that OP has taken from this thread is an idea that she has a 'dominant brat' LOL


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I also think, weeding thru, there has been alot of good advice/suggestions in this thread. Sometimes we don't want to hear it or try it or don't like it And that's certainly ones choice.

I also think, in the end, if your comfortable with your trainer , what they say, what they do, then you should be following their advice vs a bunch of us yappers on the net 

Good luck, he sounds like my kinda dog

_"goes back to sitting on my hands"_


----------



## Lialla

Mrs.K said:


> Go to your darn training director instead of the internet!


Thank you for *another* great advise! :hammer:



> I think there is a lot in of advice in this thread, but you will need to wade through it all and decide what makes the best sense for you and your puppy.


Yes, and to find it in this pile of #%@&, we need a SAR expert. But I'm afraid she'll get lost again.


----------



## mysweetkaos

GSD07 said:


> I think the only thing that OP has taken from this thread is an idea that she has a 'dominant brat' LOL


That may very well be...I live with 2 of those, well 5 if you count my human kids 
Although there were a lot of twists and turns there was a lot of valuable advice. If my dogs are in their crate and I have given them a treat....it's theirs, I don't reach (can't is not the same as don't) into their crate, because that is their area. I think although undesirable with children around, it is natural, he is in his secure den with his special treat, and he has good reason to worry you'll take it.

That being said I would leave him alone in his crate....and work on drop its by what ever means (trading or correcting) you are comfortable outside his crate. You should work on that, and I wouldn't add the kids until it is obvious he gets it and does not have guarding issues outside his crate. If he does, then get a trainer. With time of you leaving him be with his possession in his area, he won't feel threatened in his crate, as he shouldn't.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Mrs. K is in SAR.


----------



## GSDGunner

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, there are quite a few people that has given her enough advise to do something, including me. If she can't take that advise and make it useful for herself... then it's her loss, not ours.


Absolutely agree but that was 50+ pages ago. There are a LOT of conversations regarding things that are _totally irrelevant_ to the OP's problem! And it goes on for pages and pages and pages!
Perfect example: the last few pages. Tell me exactly what SAR, hunt drives and bloodhounds have to do with the OP and her original quest for advice?


----------



## GSD07

Jessica, that was the whole point of the OP's insulting remark.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

GSD07 said:


> Jessica, that was the whole point of the OP's insulting remark.


OH. See I am a bit slow today so pardon my over the head moments.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Yes, there is a lot of goofy stuff in this thread.

Mrs.K knows a lot about GSD's. and she reallly did give time and attention to offering suggestions.

The OP is free to take the suggestion from her or anyone else or not. 

I don't think it is appropriate to be rude to her.

You may not like her manner but she knows these type dogs.


----------



## onyx'girl

I'll be happy to take Grom off Lialla's hands. I think he sounds like a great dog with much potential....I hope it isn't wasted.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> Yes, there is a lot of goofy stuff in this thread.
> 
> Mrs.K knows a lot about GSD's. and she reallly did give time and attention to offering suggestions.
> 
> The OP is free to take the suggestion from her or anyone else or not.
> 
> I don't think it is appropriate to be rude to her.
> 
> You may not like her manner but she knows these type dogs.


Eh, the dog only has our line in his pedigree. Queen von Schloss Birckenstein is a daughter von Cim vom Baerenfang which is a daughter von Asra vom Baerenfang and Eddy von der vorderen Schalk. 

There is a lot of Mink in the dog, lots of really great names. Karthago, Maineiche, Wolfendobel, Kassler Kreuz... just to name a few. He also has Karlo vom Haus Peko which goes back to Basko vom Flughafenrand who indeed was one heck of a dog and went through many different hands and one of those "too much dogs" who everyone wanted to have but couldn't handle. 


*I am with Onyx'Girl. I hope it's not wasted potential. *
-------------------------------------------------
As for SAR and the whole explanation on Impulse Control and why we are doing it. It's exactly what she should do to get more focus out of the dog. It will help her overall relationship WITH the dog. 
She could put him into a spot and he would stay there even though she is fiddling with that bully stick right in front of his nose. 

That is the whole point of self control and impulse control through shaping. If she or anyone else doesn't understand why and what it's good for than I don't know WHAT will help her. 

Maybe she wants to hear that she should put a prong and e-collar on him and beat him additionally with a stick until he obeys her... :help:


----------



## onyx'girl

> There is a lot of Mink in the dog, lots of really great names. Karthago, Maineiche, Wolfendobel, Kassler Kreuz... just to name a few. He also has *Karlo vom Haus Peko *which goes back to Basko vom Flughafenrand who indeed was one heck of a dog and went through many different hands and one of those "too much dogs" who everyone wanted to have but couldn't handle.


My Karlo was named after his GREAT GREAT Grandsire...Karlo vom Peko Haus.


----------



## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> My Karlo was named after his GREAT GREAT Grandsire...Karlo vom Peko Haus.



Definitely a great dog. :wub:


----------



## Lialla

I love my dog and I came to this forum to get advise and help about my situation. I agree there is valuable, appropriate and reasonable advise in this thread, I appreciate all that and took it in. But besides that tiny grain of wisdom, it's all been bickering offtopic mess. 

I know Mrs. K has a lot of experience, especially SAR, what I don't understand is the reason of being plain rude, stomping on one point and trashing the thread.

and that is so true



> Absolutely agree but that was 50+ pages ago. There are a LOT of conversations regarding things that are _totally irrelevant_ to the OP's problem! And it goes on for pages and pages and pages!
> Perfect example: the last few pages. Tell me exactly what SAR, hunt drives and bloodhounds have to do with the OP and her original quest for advice?


In my opinion there is a very different approach in raising a SAR and a Sch dog. And what works for SAR dog will be a disaster for a Sch one. Being a novice and new sometimes is an advantage, you are not overloaded with templates and general opinions, but rely on your common sense. 

When I got Grom, I took the whole responsibility of having a dog like that and raising him to be a Sch dog. I did my research long before even looking for a breeder, and observed Sch in action during real training with real owners and real adult dogs. This decision has a same magnitude as a decision to bring a gun into a house. Not just a gun but a loaded gun with live ammo who is going to walk through the house, around my kids and around my neighbors. Couple of dozens of pages back (sorry i lost count), some people were very sentimental about my rug joke. But this is exactly what will happen if i fail. Unfortunately, my mistakes will surface when he grows up and it will be too late to correct it.

You do not return "90lbs loaded rifle" to a public library so some soccer mom can adopt it later. In such cases the rifle is destroyed. Just take a look at Grom's sire working zwack schH2.wmv - YouTube And imagine when during "bark and hold" within inches of a helper, you leave it to him to make any decision for himself. And it can be not a helper, and not at a training and a wrong decision by the dog. So, whenever I hear crate games and shaping advise over and over and over again, i wonder whether these people ever seen a Sch dog in action in person and close by (at least 15yrds), and realize all responsibilities that come with that. Honestly, I appreciate their advice, but...

In the beginning, through first 15-20 pages, I tried to be polite to energetic people with irrelevant posts which were given with good intentions though. Hoping that at some point those posts will be outweighed by qualified replies. But it didn't happen, for some reason people with expertise prefer to "sit on their hands" (cliffson, I don't mean you personally) and letting very vocal SAR experts bury those single posts with advice and this thread in whole which otherwise could be very helpful for Sch novices like me.



> I'll be happy to take Grom off Lialla's hands.


I probably missed something. Could you point out any indication that he is for sale?


----------



## Holmeshx2

Just for the record someone who recommended crate games HAS been within inches of a SchH dog... many SchH dogs HAVE played crate games.. also what works for a SAR dog would NOT be a DISASTER for a SchH dog. I personally know of a few SAR dogs that were originally SchH dogs and actually have titles (2's and 3's) on them and then switched to SAR and doing AMAZING!!!

For someone who is admittedly a green handler (as am I) I think you are being foolishly naive and arrogant. No offense but you know what they say about arming a fool with a little bit of information. I don't know half of what some of these people have forgotten over the years that have given you advice. You are also burning alot of bridges for in the future if you have other questions from people that are amazing sources of information. If you don't agree with them fine and of course I wouldn't push anything since you are already working with a trainer which is the best thing you can do however the attitude surely isn't needed or called for.


----------



## onyx'girl

MY dog is a SchH dog and is not what I would call a loaded rifle. He has balance and a brain. Obedience is very important, and with out that, there is no protection work going on. 
On the other hand, another dog I have comes from a poor breeding~she can be considered more of a "loaded rifle", because she hasn't got the brain and balance. I would never, ever train her in protection work. 
A SchH dog is not a loaded gun...I hope you will see this when you are a bit more experienced in your training



> I probably missed something. Could you point out any indication that he is for sale?


My comment was due to the fact that you said you'd shoot him, you'd make him into a rug.... your very first post in this thread was about how angry you are with him. You've not said one thing that makes me think you even like this dog. I sure hope your emotions don't go down the leash, because a bond is so very important with a working dog. Do you have that bond?


----------



## selzer

One of my bitches has a schutzhund title. She is nothing like what you describe, sorry, certainly not a loaded gun. I would trust her around my premie niece or any of the others with a bully stick no problem. 

Yours is yet a puppy though, and may need to mature and be better socialized, better controlled, and gain some confidence. 

But don't think that just because we are not all about dominance that we have no experience with schutzhund dogs.


----------



## GSD07

Lialla said:


> some people were very sentimental about my rug joke. But *this is exactly what will happen if i fail*. Unfortunately, my mistakes will surface when he grows up and it will be too late to correct it.
> 
> You do not return "90lbs loaded rifle" to a public library so some soccer mom can adopt it later. In such cases the rifle is destroyed.


 It doesn't have to happen that way. Do not destroy the dog even if you think you failed him. A good dog will shake your 'handling' off like it never happened, he will forget your 'mistakes' in a heartbeat and will be the best dog ever for someone else, someone who knows dogs. Please do not destroy your dog if you can't handle him, give it back to the breeder if the time comes. 

Gosh, this is scary.


----------



## onyx'girl

I agree, GSD07 on so many levels.


----------



## Mrs.K

Especially in SAR? LOL. 

Believe me, I am not an experienced SAR handler. I have a good dog sense and know what works and doesn't because I grew up around SchH dogs and breeding them my entire life. I am training one of my dogs in SAR for a year and my background helps me understand certain things quicker, it helps me train the dogs and pick dogs that are suitable for the job. 
Where others, take five years to train the dog, it took me a year to get at the same level. It's not because I'm talented, sometimes I feel like an idiot especially when I'm with our obedience trainer because these things are just as new to me as they are to you but when it comes up to the search training I know how important obedience is and how important well structured training is and how to set up a training plan. There is much to learn. I am open minded to anything and everything and yes, many of the SchH handlers that are just as open minded have done the Crate Games. 
Some of the worlds best SchH handlers have done it. Even in Germany. 

Times have changed. 


Guess you could say I'm somewhat unique. I never titled a dog yet I know pedigrees, a good dog when I see one and can match dogs for breeding and have two of the best mentors out there with a wealth of knowledge that I can access whenever I want.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSD07 said:


> It doesn't have to happen that way. Do not destroy the dog even if you think you failed him. A good dog will shake your 'handling' off like it never happened, he will forget your 'mistakes' in a heartbeat and will be the best dog ever for someone else, someone who knows dogs. Please do not destroy your dog if you can't handle him, give it back to the breeder if the time comes.
> 
> Gosh, this is scary.



Better yet, return the dog NOW!


----------



## selzer

Maybe that would be best. Or give the dog to Onyx, it sounds like she would like him.

Whatever you intend to do with your dog, you ought to like the dog, bond with the dog, respect the dog first.


----------



## Mrs.K

> In my opinion there is a very different approach in raising a SAR and a Sch dog. And what works for SAR dog will be a disaster for a Sch one. Being a novice and new sometimes is an advantage, you are not overloaded with templates and general opinions, but rely on your common sense.


That shows how little you know about SchH and SAR. 

There is absolutely no difference in raising a SchH dog and a SAR dog, period. 

SAR dogs have got to have the very same traits as a SchH dog. Both dogs need to be rock solid, stable in every kind of situation, driven, resilient yet social. 

Your dog has Cim vom Baerenfang in his pedigree. The Baerenfang kennel is my families kennel. My parents bred that dog. All my dogs come from strong working SchH lines. My new bitch is out of the Kassler Kreuz Kennel which your dog is strongly related to. There is absolutely not much difference in building up a SAR or a SchH dog. SchH handlers can easily adapt and train SAR dogs, much faster actually because they know how to work a dog. 


However, there are so many new methods out there, methods that work and have such huge effect on the overall relationship with your dog for sport and house manners, it's two birds with one stone. You said you wanted to do primarily obedience for fun, correct? Crate Games IS obedience and it is pure motivation for the dog.

If you feel that that dog is too much for you. Please do yourself a favor and give the dog back now or sell him to somebody that knows how to work with the dog. It's not fair to you or the dog.


----------



## chelle

Lialla said:


> I love my dog and I came to this forum to get advise and help about my situation. I agree there is valuable, appropriate and reasonable advise in this thread, I appreciate all that and took it in. But besides that tiny grain of wisdom, it's all been bickering offtopic mess.
> 
> I know Mrs. K has a lot of experience, especially SAR, what I don't understand is the reason of being plain rude, stomping on one point and trashing the thread.
> 
> and that is so true
> 
> In my opinion there is a very different approach in raising a SAR and a Sch dog. And what works for SAR dog will be a disaster for a Sch one. Being a novice and new sometimes is an advantage, you are not overloaded with templates and general opinions, but rely on your common sense.
> 
> When I got Grom, I took the whole responsibility of having a dog like that and raising him to be a Sch dog. I did my research long before even looking for a breeder, and observed Sch in action during real training with real owners and real adult dogs. This decision has a same magnitude as a decision to bring a gun into a house. Not just a gun but a loaded gun with live ammo who is going to walk through the house, around my kids and around my neighbors. Couple of dozens of pages back (sorry i lost count), some people were *very sentimental about my rug joke. But this is exactly what will happen if i fail. Unfortunately, my mistakes will surface when he grows up and it will be too late to correct it.*
> 
> You do not return "90lbs loaded rifle" to a public library so some soccer mom can adopt it later. In such cases the rifle is destroyed. Just take a look at Grom's sire working zwack schH2.wmv - YouTube And imagine when during "bark and hold" within inches of a helper, you leave it to him to make any decision for himself. And it can be not a helper, and not at a training and a wrong decision by the dog. So, whenever I hear crate games and shaping advise over and over and over again, i wonder whether these people ever seen a Sch dog in action in person and close by (at least 15yrds), and realize all responsibilities that come with that. Honestly, I appreciate their advice, but...


NOPE, you don't "return" it to the library. You accept you failed at what you were trying to do, and find a better outlet. 

I'm seriously floored by your attitude here. Maybe you just took off far more than you can chew? If it doesn't work out properly for ya, kill the dog?

You've done your homework, knew what to expect and jumped into it willingly, novice or not.

Then you want to whine about if it doesn't work, well now you have a loaded gun and you should turn it into a "rug" ? ( Color me sentimental.)



onyx'girl said:


> ...My comment was due to the fact that you said you'd shoot him, you'd make him into a rug.... your very first post in this thread was about how angry you are with him. You've not said one thing that makes me think *you even lik*e this dog. *I sure hope your emotions don't go down the leash, because a bond is so very important with a working dog. Do you have that bond*?


True and sad.



GSD07 said:


> It doesn't have to happen that way. *Do not destroy the dog even if you think you failed him*. A good dog will shake your 'handling' off like it never happened, he will forget your 'mistakes' in a heartbeat and will be the best dog ever for someone else, someone who knows dogs. Please do not destroy your dog if you can't handle him, give it back to the breeder if the time comes.
> 
> *Gosh, this is scary*.


SCARY is right.


----------



## onyx'girl

> If you feel that that dog is too much for you. Please do yourself a favor and give the dog back now. It's not fair to you or the dog.


bears repeating, because I truly believe you have no understanding of your dog whatsoever.


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> All dogs like to find and chew on or roll in or otherwise play with dead things.
> That's not a particular line of dog. They all have sensitive noses


I will bow to the voice of experience.  It sure seemed to me they managed to find more than my other dogs but they may have just been better at bringing it to my attention.


----------



## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> That shows how little you know about SchH and SAR.
> 
> There is absolutely no difference in raising a SchH dog and a SAR dog, period.


Since this thread is already so off topic 

Can someone explain to me what SchH is? I thought it was guard dog training but the link I followed made it sound more like SAR/Agility/and Obedience rolled into one.... If we decide to go with another puppy I'd like to know more about the different types of training. Thanks!


----------



## onyx'girl

Here is a link to the UScA site, it should answer your questions. United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog
and another link:
Schutzhund Village


----------



## selzer

SchH is Schutzhund. 

There are three areas the dog has to qualify in at a trial to get a title: obedience, tracking, and protection.

The obedience has a bit of agility mixed in. They retrieve over an a-type frame. 

The point is to measure the dog's ability, and training, and courage.


----------



## Mrs.K

Three retrieves actually. 

One on the flat ground, then over the Hurdle and then over the A-Frame.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Three retrieves actually.
> 
> One on the flat ground, then over the Hurdle and then over the A-Frame.


Thanks for the clarification. I was only mentioning what the agility bit was. In AKC obedience we do retrieves over the flat, and over a jump, but not over an A-frame.


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> Better yet, return the dog NOW!


Return him now is the best plan.
If you truly think a Sch prospect that "washes out" needs to be killed, you are not the trainer for him.
I honestly have no idea why a novice would want this dog anyway. In your hands, yes, he is quite possibly a loaded gun. 
Give him back to the trainer so she can salvage what is left.

**I don't even do Sch, but I understand it and have been around it. If you truly think THIS:



> Not just a gun but a loaded gun with live ammo who is going to walk through the house, around my kids and around my neighbors.


 then it is not the sport for you.
Hundreds of people on these forums have these dogs around their kids and do not see them as "loaded guns about to go off". :shaking my head:

I mean there's dogs who are K9 officers who live right amongst their families. These dogs aren't loose cannons. If they are, they shouldn't have been trained for Sch in the 1st place.


----------



## mysweetkaos

Holmeshx2 said:


> Just for the record someone who recommended crate games HAS been within inches of a SchH dog... many SchH dogs HAVE played crate games.. also what works for a SAR dog would NOT be a DISASTER for a SchH dog. I personally know of a few SAR dogs that were originally SchH dogs and actually have titles (2's and 3's) on them and then switched to SAR and doing AMAZING!!!
> 
> For someone who is admittedly a green handler (as am I) I think you are being foolishly naive and arrogant. No offense but you know what they say about arming a fool with a little bit of information. I don't know half of what some of these people have forgotten over the years that have given you advice. You are also burning alot of bridges for in the future if you have other questions from people that are amazing sources of information. If you don't agree with them fine and of course I wouldn't push anything since you are already working with a trainer which is the best thing you can do however the attitude surely isn't needed or called for.


:thumbup:


----------



## GregK

msvette2u said:


> Return him now is the best plan.
> If you truly think a Sch prospect that "washes out" needs to be killed, you are not the trainer for him.


That's right. That way of thinking is deplorable. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


----------



## codmaster

Aren't there any "Bad" ScH trainers that do end up with human unstable dogs that are not trustworthy around other people?

Maybe they are the folks who give a bad name to ScH titled dogs? If you have ever met an unstable ScH titled dogs (assuming that there might be such animals) then I would think that you would probably think that ScH training is "Attack Dog" training.

Just like if the only Pit Bull (or GSD, for that matter) was like one of those in the news, 
then you might also think that ScH dogs are untrustworthy?

Maybe?


----------



## Shaina

My schutzhund dog would never snap at a child, stranger, or any other being. She is the most outgoing, friendly dog I have personally ever owned. I do not consider her a liability, threat, or a loaded gun, despite the fact that she is trained to bite the s*** out of the decoy ON COMMAND. A balanced dog is a dog that you can live with but will ALSO excel in schutzhund.


----------



## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> Aren't there any "Bad" ScH trainers that do end up with human unstable dogs that are not trustworthy around other people?
> 
> Maybe they are the folks who give a bad name to ScH titled dogs? If you have ever met an unstable ScH titled dogs (assuming that there might be such animals) then I would think that you would probably think that ScH training is "Attack Dog" training.
> 
> Just like if the only Pit Bull (or GSD, for that matter) was like one of those in the news,
> then you might also think that ScH dogs are untrustworthy?
> 
> Maybe?


yes, there are.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> Couple of dozens of pages back (sorry i lost count), some people were very sentimental about my rug joke. But this is exactly what will happen if i fail. Unfortunately, my mistakes will surface when he grows up and it will be too late to correct it.


I am honestly floored by the above statement. Are you serious really?

Are you saying if YOU fail this dog, by your failure, he'll pay the ultimate price? What is he, an experiment?

I apologize in advance if your statement is being sarcastic, but if your serious, you should be returning him to the breeder right now.

In fact, I wonder how any breeder who sold a puppy to someone would feel if that person made this statement and was serious. 

Again, I will apologize in advance if you were being sarcastic.

Like I said before, you may not like the suggestions/advice, there may be alot of BS thru the 58 pages here, but when you take on a dog like this, it's your responsibility to do right by him and if you can't , return him to the breeder.


----------



## Lialla

> A SchH dog is not a loaded gun..


What if it's a POORLY trained dog? 

A dog that knows commands, but the one that only does what he whats to do? One thing when a young pup is acting up and opposing being controlled, but when an adult powerful dog does the same it's a completely different story. 

Then it could turn into an 'attack sport'.


----------



## onyx'girl

You don't do protection without having the obedience....Obedience comes first!!!! It isn't that difficult to understand.


----------



## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> SchH is Schutzhund.
> 
> There are three areas the dog has to qualify in at a trial to get a title: obedience, tracking, and protection.
> 
> The obedience has a bit of agility mixed in. They retrieve over an a-type frame.
> 
> The point is to measure the dog's ability, and training, and courage.


Oh ok... I think I understand now. Thanks for the links and the messages.


----------



## Mrs.K

Exactly, it doesn't matter what you do. If SchH, if SAR, heck even Agility doesn't work without a proper foundation and that foundation* IS OBEDIENCE! 
*
And I'm not talking about the prong collar crank&jerk type of obedience. Since you do SchH and mainly for the obedience I am pretty sure you like the flashy type of obedience. Those games we talked about are the start of that kind of obedience. First you have to have some self-control on the dog, than he learns all three commands (sit, down, stand), at the same time he learns to listen to his name, not to (Apollo, come here, come, come come) but HIS NAME, just Apollo. Then he learns to dismay distractions and at the same time you can work on his rear-end awareness on a bowl which is teaching him to learn that he's got two more legs back there which helps you to put him into the right heeling position. 

And since all of that is positive you build a bond with the dog, he's getting focused on you, waiting for your next move. And all that helps you in the house as well and gains you the trust and respect of the dog.


----------



## Holmeshx2

codmaster said:


> Aren't there any "Bad" ScH trainers that do end up with human unstable dogs that are not trustworthy around other people?
> 
> Maybe they are the folks who give a bad name to ScH titled dogs? If you have ever met an unstable ScH titled dogs (assuming that there might be such animals) then I would think that you would probably think that ScH training is "Attack Dog" training.
> 
> Just like if the only Pit Bull (or GSD, for that matter) was like one of those in the news,
> then you might also think that ScH dogs are untrustworthy?
> 
> Maybe?


Yes there are which is why we all stress how important a good trainer is.. I'm sorry but any trainer that is just one method only is a fool and going to screw up some dogs.

I have seen those screwed up dogs that under different hands could probably be turned around but I saw dogs that were scrawling on their stomachs onto the field that cowered next to their owner, that no one else could get near to touch the dog, the dog had nasty, dirty bites on the helper. Interestingly enough every dog this "trainer" personally owned was the same way.. socially unstable, nasty dog, took "cheap shots" on the helper and completely scared to death when working and in front of the trainer. He also did the whole "super alpha" thing and used constant negative "yank and crank" methods... could be a coincidence. 



Lialla said:


> What if it's a POORLY trained dog?
> 
> A dog that knows commands, but the one that only does what he whats to do? One thing when a young pup is acting up and opposing being controlled, but when an adult powerful dog does the same it's a completely different story.
> 
> Then it could turn into an 'attack sport'.


Actually... wrong again. I have watched an adult dog (huge male) train with an AMAZING trainer and after taking a strong bite he wouldn't let the arm go after being told by his handler to "Aus" I watched this same trainer, whos arm was in a dogs mouth, stay calm.. told the handler to remain calm and didn't say anything else to the dog.. he simply waited for the dog to relax some then had the handler repeat the "aus" again.. dog still didn't comply.. this went on for a bit and finally the dog released... they used this to help the dog learn to release without FORCING him to.. they allowed the dog to make the decision.. guess what that dog started doing better bites and cleaner releases rather quickly.... I don't know why you think there is so much force "both physical and mental" to MAKE the dog comply for the sport.. they train first.. after the dog learns it there are corrections. These same trainers I have seen thwap a dog on top of the head to get them to refocus and it worked like a charm.. dog that KNEW what it was doing was just focused on other things (mainly just wanting the toy to play) and a quick but firm "tap" on top of the head and you saw the dog "wake up" and pay attention and actually do what it was supposed to do.. the dog didn't cower, the dog pranced happily tail wagging and smile on its face next to the handler while they finished working... not all corrections are bad but all of these dogs are STARTED with the positive stuff and learning to make their own choices they just learn that making the right one is a great thing so they continue to decide to make the right choice for the benefits. *Dogs are rather simple creatures when you break it down. They do whats in THEIR best interest.*

A dog barks because its fun to them.. they dig because it's fun to them.. they steal food because they want it etc.. you have to make the alternative better. The dog pulls because pulling is self rewarding.. they get to the smells faster and get to keep searching for new stuff and what they want.. to stop the pulling you make it more rewarding to the dog to be next to you and not pulling ahead. You let the dog make the decision but you just let them know that being with you and making the RIGHT choice is more rewarding for them so they choose the best thing.


----------



## Mrs.K

Lialla, I have a serious question for you. 

Would you be willed to sell the puppy? 

If you are, while I am in NY State, I can come by and look at the puppy. If the puppy really is what I think it is maybe we can help you find a more suitable home for that puppy. 

For some reason, with the way you are talking, I just have the feeling that the two of you are not the right fit. If you don't want to go through the breeder. Let us help you. There are plenty of knowledgeable people within five hours from NJ on this forum.


----------



## mtmarabianz

Aren't dogs supposed to get a BH Before they Train for SchH???
Isn't the BH to test for Temperament Suitability for training of SchH???

Or maybe that is what the OP is training for at her club

Alot of 8 mo old dogs are going to be distracted!! 
Just me, but after the discription of his reation at training
I would Back UP, & focus on the Bond/ 
Excellant advice from Several members here, & ty to those who contributed that advice, as it is the Dog who benefits!!


----------



## Mrs.K

mtmarabianz said:


> Aren't dogs supposed to get a BH Before they Train for SchH???
> Isn't the BH to test for Temperament Suitability for training of SchH???
> 
> Or maybe that is what the OP is training for at her club
> 
> Alot of 8 mo old dogs are going to be distracted!!
> Just me, but after the discription of his reation at training
> I would Back UP, & focus on the Bond/
> Excellant advice from Several members here, & ty to those who contributed that advice, as it is the Dog who benefits!!


Yes, most of the time you start out training towards the SchH1 title and take the BH along the way. It's a lot of training so generally you start the dog in all three phases as young as possible. 

In the past you waited until you had the HD results because you didn't want to waste resources and money on a dog that had to be put to sleep, nowadays people start as early as 8 weeks but the dog has to be 15 months to take the BH.


----------



## Lialla

Mrs.K said:


> Lialla, I have a serious question for you.
> 
> Would you be willed to sell the puppy?


Well, I know you are from Germany and I feel like I need to be direct with so you can understand. Your help is unwanted and not even appreciated. Please, go cook some dinner or go find another topic where you can provide your expertise.


----------



## mtmarabianz

Also, what I could not help think, as I read the OP's posts:

How Much Exercise does this dog get?? I personnally think it is criminal to acquire a GSD, large/active breed, & not be resolved to the personal responsibily of owning, which includes DAILY commitment to off leash runs, find a fenced in base ball field.
Not running the dog into the ground several times a week, but 1 hour daily, or twice daily, of being a dog.
Kids go out & play, not just homework!!

Just my thoughts, as I read the post about the dog's focus on the other dogs,
When was the last time this dog had fun?? Short 10 minute ob sessions, several times a day, with positive motivation, & fun? Running, playing with a ball, Fun, training sprinkled in with Fun for the Dog.

8 mo old, teenage dogs, need a release, not "I admit he didn't get enough exercise this WEEK"???, I just picture the op thinking, well today is training day, that will be enought for .......

& a ball crazy dog is an Awesome motivator, sit gets ball
Other Dog's Around, Hold Ball in Hand

Takes alot of work & committment, but my training was off leash in a fenced in field;
with my dog on a 30' long line, having fun, but learning at the same time!
Then intoduce the Distraction of a Training Field with a well exercised dog!!

Locked in a home, expected to act correctly, this dog is set up for insanity.


----------



## GregK

go cook some dinner, mtmarabianz!!


----------



## Lialla

GregK said:


> go cook some dinner, mtmarabianz!!



:rofl:


----------



## GSD07

GregK said:


> go cook some dinner, mtmarabianz!!


 :wild:  GregK, careful, you made me spill my coffee LOL


----------



## mtmarabianz

What a rude comment to Mrs K, someone Who is knowledgable, & responding to this thread;

& I will say, I think a big problem is NOT getting the BH 1st, but so much for the that, 

the OP seems resolved to wanting to follow certain responses on this thread, members, all I can say is, Poor dog.


----------



## Mrs.K

I'd say, let's all go and cook some Dinner and let her be... 

We've offered our help, it's not wanted as much as it sucks for the dog, there is nothing we can do about it. 
Many breeders google their dogs and follow this forum. If this breeder does, he will eventually come across this topic.


----------



## GSD07

mtmarabianz, the OP responses expose her as a very arrogant ang ignorant person, not just in dog training. At some point it's stopped being taken seriously by many here. I think this thread is important for other people who may encounter similar issues with their dogs, and who are actually willing to open their mind.


----------



## RocketDog

Lialla said:


> *I'm so angry with Grom right now. My kids usually behave crazy with him like the ordinary 8 and 9 year olds would (of course I teach my kids to respect the pup and mind the boundaries) and Grom was very good with them, he just walked** 1: **away when kids were too much. They play tug with him. Would pet him and hang around him, while he was chewing his bully stick, and he was just fine with it.
> 
> He didn't have any bully sticks for some time and to be honest 2: **I didn't exercise him enough this week, so he was bored. I brought him a bully stick tonight and he was very eager to have it. He laid down on my command and I let him have it, and 3: **when I reached to pet him, he growled. It was an agressive growl with his lip curled, that was the first time he growled like that. He then growled at my kids and when my son came closer, he lunged with a growl at him. I managed to grab him, I don't know if it could be a bite, if I hadn't. Yelled at him and put him in his crate. * *
> 
> I practice NILIF with him, took him to puppy classes and did basic obidience, which we stopped doing lately and started with Schutzhund. He is our very first dog and right now I feel like I cannot trust him anymore.*
> Sorry, this is long, but I need your input on what to do now. I'll put Sch training on hold for now and will work on obidience with a trainer and involve my kids into that too. Right now I don't feel safe when he is around kids, I don't know what to expect from him and what else can provoke him to behave like that.


I have way less experience than many on this board, and haven't said anything. However----

Your first two paragraphs contain SO much information. 

*1*: Why did you let things ever get to the point with your kids where "*he just walked away when kids were too much"?*

I have kids too. Have always had big dogs. I NEVER ever put the dog in a position where HE had to decide when was enough. That's YOUR responsibility. He has come to view them as potentially stressful, whether you see that or not. It's evidenced by what happened.

*2*: The exercise thing. I can see ONE day where there might not be enough....but a _week? _I know how exhausting puppies are...believe me. But it's like a newborn baby. You don't just get to say "This week I can't spend as much time with you as you need." You just DO IT. 

*3*: When you reached to pet the dog and he growled, THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN THE STOPPING POINT. You should've taken control of the situation RIGHT THEN. _Why did you then let your son even get anywhere near him?_

You may not like Mrs. K's responses, but she has much more experience than you. IMHO for a FIRST dog, this could be way over your head. I would be paying for private sessions with a GOOD trainer/behaviorist who specializes in working GSD's.


----------



## mysweetkaos

Lialla said:


> Well, I know you are from Germany and I feel like I need to be direct with so you can understand. Your help is unwanted and not even appreciated. Please, go cook some dinner or go find another topic where you can provide your expertise.


If you do not like someone's advice....don't follow it. Take what works for you and leave what doesn't. NO need to be rude and condascending. 



Mrs.K said:


> I'd say, let's all go and cook some Dinner and let her be...
> 
> We've offered our help, it's not wanted as much as it sucks for the dog, there is nothing we can do about it.
> Many breeders google their dogs and follow this forum. If this breeder does, he will eventually come across this topic.


Mrs K....I will gladly cook some dinner for you if you would come over and train with my dogs.


----------



## mtmarabianz

Kids & Dogs = Can't be Any Smarter Than the Parent/Owner 
(Well, dogs are, by Nature!!)


----------



## mtmarabianz

MrsK, 

I'd Cook Dinner, & Pay You To Eat!!! Just For The Conversation!!


----------



## Wolfiesmom

mysweetkaos said:


> If you do not like someone's advice....don't follow it. Take what works for you and leave what doesn't.  NO need to be rude and condascending.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs K....I will gladly cook some dinner for you if you would come over and train with my dogs.


Me too!!! I will do the cooking if Mrs K would come train Wolfie!


----------



## mtmarabianz

Mrs K,

I'm going to re-read, & save those links you posted.

My dog is 4yo, never to late for me to learn/train, 
my dog, always step ahead of me on learning/knowing new games (always has been!)

Gotta figure out, what for Dinner


----------



## mysweetkaos

I just had a thought....
Mrs K, I have an idea, you could start a podcast called 
"Dinner and Dogs with Mrs K", Giving dog advice while cooking dinner.


----------



## shepherdmom

GSD07 said:


> I think this thread is important for other people who may encounter similar issues with their dogs, and who are actually willing to open their mind.


As someone who took a beating early on in the thread, I'm glad I stuck with it. I've learned a lot. It is clear that not all shepherds are as easy and wonderful as mine have been. I now know that before I go any further about getting another one I want to make sure there is a trainer close by who I like. I also need to be very careful about the background to get one who is family friendly and not going to challange me more than my ability to handle. Having raised Shepherds I just kinda thought they would all be the same. I've learned that I've just been very lucky! I started out another thread with experienced GSD mom... Big MISTAKE it appears with shepherds you can't really be experienced because they are all so different. LOL Thanks to everyone who contributed. :hugs:


----------



## Wolfiesmom

mysweetkaos said:


> I just had a thought....
> Mrs K, I have an idea, you could start a podcast called
> "Dinner and Dogs with Mrs K", Giving dog advice while cooking dinner.


I love this! I would definitely watch!


----------



## Mrs.K

mysweetkaos said:


> I just had a thought....
> Mrs K, I have an idea, you could start a podcast called
> "Dinner and Dogs with Mrs K", Giving dog advice while cooking dinner.


Handing out original German recipes too? 

LOL. I only give advise if I can contribute something, if I reached my limitations I'll hand you a German recipe and send you somewhere else.


----------



## mtmarabianz

Wolfiesmom said:


> I love this! I would definitely watch!


 
Sign me UP


----------



## Ingrid

*A big Thank You* to Mrs. K and the other knowledgeable posters here. Even if the OP isn't seeing the need to consider your advice, it's definitely been helpful to those of us who *have* had to deal with *similar situations* (described way back on page one : )!


----------



## Mrs.K

You really want to see me ranting for half an hour?


----------



## mtmarabianz

Hope peeps behind the scene are looking for the breeder, this sounds like a rescue mission.

local animal control?


----------



## mysweetkaos

Mrs.K said:


> You really want to see me ranting for half an hour?


Yes...I love a good rant, especially if I have a mouth full of good food!!

Man now I have a craving for Kraut Bierrochs (sp)....may need to make some cabbage burgers tonight!!


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> As someone who took a beating early on in the thread, I'm glad I stuck with it. I've learned a lot. It is clear that not all shepherds are as easy and wonderful as mine have been. I now know that before I go any further about getting another one I want to make sure there is a trainer close by who I like. I also need to be very careful about the background to get one who is family friendly and not going to challange me more than my ability to handle. Having raised Shepherds I just kinda thought they would all be the same. I've learned that I've just been very lucky! I started out another thread with experienced GSD mom... Big MISTAKE it appears with shepherds you can't really be experienced because they are all so different. LOL Thanks to everyone who contributed. :hugs:


Thank you. Thank you for admitting that. Thank you for having an open mind. Thank you for being willing to learn. If that won't take you a long way then nothing will.


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> As someone who took a beating early on in the thread, I'm glad I stuck with it. I've learned a lot. It is clear that not all shepherds are as easy and wonderful as mine have been. I now know that before I go any further about getting another one I want to make sure there is a trainer close by who I like. I also need to be very careful about the background to get one who is family friendly and not going to challange me more than my ability to handle. Having raised Shepherds I just kinda thought they would all be the same. I've learned that I've just been very lucky! I started out another thread with experienced GSD mom... Big MISTAKE it appears with shepherds you can't really be experienced because they are all so different. LOL Thanks to everyone who contributed. :hugs:


Sorry  However after talking more through PM's I am sooo glad you came to this realization it took me awhile to learn that lesson also. I've had shepherds before and "thought" I knew what I was doing.. then I got Jinx and she proved me wrong lol. Just goes to show that you can't use the same method all the time.. beating my thoughts into your head didn't work but a less *ahem* "confrontational" approach worked amazing for both of us to get our points across and find mutual ground  Oh yeah almost forget... as far as getting one you can handle.. thats the beauty of an awesome breeder.. they learn you and your experience and know their dogs really well and can pair you with a dog you can actually handle so you don't have to worry about it 



Lialla said:


> Well, I know you are from Germany and I feel like I need to be direct with so you can understand.* Your help is unwanted and not even appreciated.* Please, go cook some dinner or go find another topic where you can provide your expertise.


Again you're wrong! (and arrogant and ignorant to your situation at hand) Her help IS wanted.. maybe not by you but others reading this and it is appreciated.. again not by you but others reading this thread.. sorry your so arrogant you think that all 60 + pages of this thread are specifically about you however long ago most of us gave up on you but were still trying for the sake of the dog.. now must of us could care less and are trying to reach others that are reading this now and in the future and arming them with good information... not you!



GSD07 said:


> mtmarabianz, the OP responses expose her as a very arrogant ang ignorant person, not just in dog training. At some point it's stopped being taken seriously by many here. I think this thread is important for other people who may encounter similar issues with their dogs, and who are actually willing to open their mind.


LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!!!! The part people sometimes forget about an online forum is it comes up on general searches. This thread has some AMAZING information in it and while not all of it pertains to the OP and her situation it is good for dogs in general (all dogs no matter what the person plans to do with them) so now it's a matter of helping those people and not leaving poor information out there unchallenged. If someone reads this in 3 years while doing an internet search and they see that a SchH dog "is a loaded gun ready to go off" and thats left unchallenged some people will believe it.. or that you can't do foundation work using positive methods on a SchH dog so they think a trainer they are researching is right who says all dogs must be dominated etc.. it will cause more issues with more dogs down the road.. so at the moment its about owners who can still be reached and the GSd breed as a whole... not this specific person and their specific issue because thats just a lost cause. I don't know who the breeder was but apparently they are breeding good dogs I wish they used their better judgement and denied the sale when their instincts told them to instead of being convinced otherwise.. hopefully they see this and come back for their dog or knock some sense into the owner.


----------



## Shaina

shepherdmom said:


> As someone who took a beating early on in the thread, I'm glad I stuck with it. I've learned a lot. It is clear that not all shepherds are as easy and wonderful as mine have been. I now know that before I go any further about getting another one I want to make sure there is a trainer close by who I like. I also need to be very careful about the background to get one who is family friendly and not going to challange me more than my ability to handle. Having raised Shepherds I just kinda thought they would all be the same. I've learned that I've just been very lucky! I started out another thread with experienced GSD mom... Big MISTAKE it appears with shepherds you can't really be experienced because they are all so different. LOL Thanks to everyone who contributed. :hugs:


This quote right here makes the 60+ pages of bickering worth it! Always good to know somebody took something positive through the chaos.


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> You don't do protection without having the obedience....Obedience comes first!!!! It isn't that difficult to understand.


 
MUST be the case (at least in a well trained ScH dog!) Or for that matter, any large powerful dog!!!!


----------



## onyx'girl

:wub:codmaster, are you actually agreeing with me?


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> :wub:codmaster, are you actually agreeing with me?


 
Yes! Most assuredly!


----------



## Emoore

shepherdmom said:


> Having raised Shepherds I just kinda thought they would all be the same. I've learned that I've just been very lucky! I started out another thread with experienced GSD mom... Big MISTAKE it appears with shepherds you can't really be experienced because they are all so different. LOL Thanks to everyone who contributed. :hugs:


I had to laugh at this. . . . having fostered with a rescue group for 10 years and fostered nearly 30 dogs, and having had 3 of my own, I keep thinking I'm experienced. . . and I just keep getting humbled.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I got my first GSD in 1986 and I'm STILL learning! Halo is my 5th GSD, and she and Cassidy, my 2nd, have taught me the most.


----------



## shilohsmom

OMG, I'm only on Page 4 and you guys are all the way up to page 62...I'll never catch up before the thread is locked!!!


----------



## mtmarabianz

This Has Been A Good Thread 

TY Holmeshx2 for summarizing so eloquently &
Onyx'Girl for stating so Simply!!


----------



## shilohsmom

mtmarabianz said:


> This Has Been A Good Thread
> 
> TY Holmeshx2 for summarizing so eloquently &
> Onyx'Girl for stating so Simply!!


Ok, I cheated and jumped ahead. I agree, looks like its been a great thread! I thought the explosives would have been going off by the look at how quickly it grew....


----------



## RocketDog

Oh, they were there....


----------



## Holmeshx2

RocketDog said:


> Oh, they were there....


Guilty  lol I have since lowered my hackles, extended the olive branch and made amends... not to mention helped to educate a little bit  and heck it's already been worth it because with threads like these if you can just educate ONE person and help open their eyes some it's always worth it!


----------



## AbbyK9

> Mrs K, I have an idea, you could start a podcast called
> "Dinner and Dogs with Mrs K", Giving dog advice while cooking dinner.


Only problem with that is, if there's food in the kitchen while cooking, we'd be eating it and talking with our mouths full. Like on Thanksgiving. 

I'm glad I stayed out of this thread. It's one of those that make you want to bang your head into the wall from the first post.


----------



## Debbieg

This has been a great thread, although I worry about Grom. Don't like how the OP labels him a "dominant brat" in the signature. 
I agree that *obedience* is primary, but obedience learned through good experiences and training, (humane use of compulsion and corrections as needed by the dog.)

I like the crate games Mrs K shared. I am adding them to the impulse control work I am doing with Benny. 

I found that even those who often disagree in many aspects of training still have much in common at heart. There are some really nice, generous people on this forum!

Benny is my 6th GSD, but in a way he, like all of them is my first. They each teach me something different and for that I am grateful.


----------



## msvette2u

Lialla said:


> What if it's a POORLY trained dog?
> 
> A dog that knows commands, but the one that only does what he whats to do? One thing when a young pup is acting up and opposing being controlled, but when an adult powerful dog does the same it's a completely different story.
> 
> Then it could turn into an 'attack sport'.


Don't keep this puppy out of spite or pride.
Do consider giving him (or selling him) to a trainer who can work with him, or give him back to his breeder.

Schutzhund is an activity but one that progresses. 
If you can't pass the 1st step which is spot-on obedience, you cannot advance.
If your dog does not have what it takes (or you don't) you're not going to continue down the road to get to the point of having a biting maniac on your hands - unless your club is crap and advance he and you despite the fact there is no obedience AKA building block ONE.
If you get to the point where the dog listens to you no matter what, then you can go on to the next level, AKA building block TWO, and so on and so forth.

You're going to have to make a choice. Either you are not cut out to be a trainer for this sport, and you need to decide you have a nice house pet, then concentrate on basic obedience, or you need to give the dog up and give him a chance to blossom into a Sch dog or whatever, but don't keep him out of spite or selfishness and pride, please.

You owe it to your dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> Thank you. Thank you for admitting that. Thank you for having an open mind. Thank you for being willing to learn. If that won't take you a long way then nothing will.


You're Welcome.  Guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.


----------



## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Sorry  However after talking more through PM's I am sooo glad you came to this realization it took me awhile to learn that lesson also. I've had shepherds before and "thought" I knew what I was doing.. then I got Jinx and she proved me wrong lol.
> 
> *Just glad I learned all this before I went and screwed up a puppy.  I have a question for you about rescue. I'll post over in the rescue thread so as to not make this one any more crazy.*
> 
> Just goes to show that you can't use the same method all the time.. beating my thoughts into your head didn't work but a less *ahem* "confrontational" approach worked amazing for both of us to get our points across and find mutual ground  Oh yeah almost forget... as far as getting one you can handle.. thats the beauty of an awesome breeder.. they learn you and your experience and know their dogs really well and can pair you with a dog you can actually handle so you don't have to worry about it


 Have some questions about breeders as well.. Where would be the best place to ask about this?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I love you Mrs. K! Your posts are always informative!! I will be glad to invite you over for some brownies!


----------



## phgsd

I know the breeder...they have been informed. Sorry OP but I have the dog's best interests at heart. I hope they can talk some sense into you.


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> You're Welcome.  Guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.


I'm very new to German Shepherds. Jax is my first one. The one thing I can say is that every time I think I have something figured out, she changes the game. :wild:


----------



## Holmeshx2

shepherdmom said:


> Have some questions about breeders as well.. Where would be the best place to ask about this?


Depends on the question more then likely choosing a breeder should be the right section.



Jessiewessie99 said:


> I love you Mrs. K! Your posts are always informative!! I will be glad to invite you over for some brownies!


Very very sweet offer Jessie however if you make your brownies I'm sure she's not gonna have much to say that would be very informative lol.



phgsd said:


> I know the breeder...they have been informed. Sorry OP but I have the dog's best interests at heart. I hope they can talk some sense into you.


THANK YOU!!!


----------



## onyx'girl

phgsd said:


> I know the breeder...they have been informed. Sorry OP but I have the dog's best interests at heart. I hope they can talk some sense into you.


Thank you x's 2!


----------



## Mrs.K

He's in Frenchtown. Breeds for 25 years I think also a Narcotic DEA Instructor. 

Giving the kennel name is like handing out a name and address nowadays.


----------



## mysweetkaos

Mrs K....any luck on those Kraut Berochs (sp) ?


----------



## Mrs.K

mysweetkaos said:


> Mrs K....any luck on those Kraut Berochs (sp) ?


Are you talking about Bierocks? 
Kraut Bierocks Recipe - Allrecipes.com

If so... YUM! Ya'll are invited. Let's have a GSD Forum MEET AND GREET at my place. 

You bring the dogs and beer. 

I supply the food.


----------



## mysweetkaos

Mrs.K said:


> Are you talking about Bierocks?
> Kraut Bierocks Recipe - Allrecipes.com
> 
> If so... YUM! Ya'll are invited. Let's have a GSD Forum MEET AND GREET at my place.
> 
> You bring the dogs and beer.
> 
> I supply the food.


YES, that's what I meant.....mein duetsch is nicht so gut, aber Ich versuche
I am actually making a big batch of those for the Superbowl....LOVE them. However I think Jersey is quite a drive from Missouri!!


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> I'm very new to German Shepherds. Jax is my first one. The one thing I can say is that every time I think I have something figured out, she changes the game. :wild:


I've raised 4 from puppies. All I can say is although they each had their very own personalities, every single one of them wanted to please us first. Yes we had our share of toilet paper strewn house (there is that persistant side thread again. ) and minor challanges (yes, I really mean you have to go lay down and not beg at the table) but never did any of the puppies ever challange us to the point where I felt threatened for my physical saftey. Maybe my mental sanity.  Now I'm going to say knock on wood, thank goodness, and crossing fingers that it continues.  I'm going to be very careful and cautious about our next one.


----------



## Mrs.K

Neither have I. 

When I was 14 or 15 years old one of my parents dogs, she was from one of the D litters. She went to Switzerland and through three different hands before we got her back. When she came back, she was so far down the road and screwed up, really good. We have no idea what happened with that dog. Every kennel was full, so she was inside the stable and had a full stall for herself. She ducked and covered in the far back corner. 

What did I do? I went in. She ducked into the corner even further and I did something that nobody, nobody in their right mind and as a teenager or kid should do. I went to her, grabbed her on the scruff and dragged her out and took her on a walk. She wouldn't let me take her collar, so I simply dragged her out like a young kitten, on the scruff, went into the woods, NO LEASH or anything and went on a walk with her. 

From that day on we were inseparable. She followed me around anywhere I went. 
When I went into that stable and she ducked in the corner I didn't think about the chance that she could have bitten me because there was nowhere else to go. 

Later on she got her own kennel and she actually climbed the fence, anytime she saw me walking by. She then moved into the house and it was her, that jumped into my bed, every morning, SOAKING wet after she jumped into the small pond. 
I loved that dog. She went everywhere with me. Her name was Dixie. 

They completely ruined her in Obedience. Not tracking, not the protection phase but in obedience. Some years later my parents gave her to an elderly lady. There she had a grand time until she died from old age. 

That was the first dog I rehabilitated. 15 years later, I found out that I always got the screwed up cases because I have a hand and socialized them so well that they were able to go into families. 

Dogs get screwed up since the dawn of time. They keep them until they no longer can handle them and then they are dumped into other hands, go through a dozen homes before their breeders find out what is going on. Just like Dixie or Yukon. If people would get in contact with their breeders situations like these could be avoided.

You know how old she was when we got her back? I think she was just little over a year old. Already through three different hands at that time. She was around five or six when she moved in with the elderly woman, I believe.


----------



## carmspack

hi, so I've been like busy , not avoiding, msvette.

also, felt the problem was not so much the dog , which everyone has been focusing on, but the over all situation.

I decided to read the thread backwards from page 63 to 41. Then to fact check went and read the first 3 pages .

I do answer all my PM's , and at great length. May have been brief with one or two with show line pedigrees because everything was thoroughly covered in a thread , or if I did not know.

Grom. Quick , immediate response. Not necessarily too much dog , possibly too little handler.

Mindset -- first post when dog is introduced dog is called "little monster" and brat . Information that breeder relented against their better judgement to let this dog go home with new owner . Dog was the bully and the brat and the energy and the biggest by far . So what was the point of getting "that" one? 

If the perception was that this dog was the dominant , this means little - since as soon as the dynamics change so does the position and role -- and dominant does not mean aggressive . 

Right from the start things were out of control. Right from the start the dog determined what happened. The OP did not choose the dog --- the dog chose her . 

A frickin trainer as Mrs K said, can only do so much. All the pressure is on the dog .

A dog is the product of his genetics, his environment which includes those experiences to which he is exposed and training . 

Dogs have an accelerated maturation yet people want to keep them infantile , neotonize them. A pup taken home at 8 weeks is malleable , which means that you are responsible for developing the dog that you want . At that age . The handler gets the dog that he deserves. 

Here is one thing for anyone reading this -- studies have shown (Pfaffenberger - Scott and Fuller , Bradshaw) that the only trait resistant to change is genetically based fear .

8 months in the relative terms of human developmen, is not a dog-baby .

A dog that age, living on the street as they do all over the world in feral packs would be quite capable of fending for itself, even copulating and siring a litter . In that setting they would try to fit themselves into the structure of their fellow canine family , some harmony , some co-operation.

I believe that is what healthy dogs do when they live with us -- and I have no reason to think that this dog , Grom, is not balanced or unhealthy -- very normal d o g .

quote "kids usually behave crazy with him like the ordinary 8 and 9 year olds would (of course I teach my kids to respect the pup and mind the boundaries) and Grom was very good with them, he just walked away when kids were too much" -- can I go out and say contradiction.

Sounds like a lot of disorder , usually crazy. Boundaries should have a wide berth , not be tested or crossed. 

Certainly the dog should not need to seek relief when things have gone too far. Its pretty hands off not to intercede. So dog in control . Looking out for self . Out of necessity.

Here is the problem though. Whatever the dog does will only be partially effective. Even if the dog went away , the "chaos" will follow him . Under great powers of self control the dog went away . Essentially the dog has done everything that it can to diffuse or deflect . That shows me that this dog has a high threshold . A threshold which has been abused . I'll bring this up later.

Playing tug . I don't think this is an activity for young kids and dogs . Everything about kids is different - the way they move, smell, sound, act , and so kids are generalized as another group . Here the kids act , like "wild animals" (in the dog eyes) . They excite , they play tug which is a game but it is a competitive game with a winner and looser and the kids can't have the sophisitication to communicate when enough is enough , so the dog wins .

----- so far this has been put together from 4 a m this morning to bits and pieces here and there this afternoon -- I am going to have to leave it here and come back later when I have time 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

comment in response to shepherdmom and Mrs K , neither have I. 
I can dive down the throats of my dogs if they ate something I didn't want them to have -- no problem. I can hold out food and ask them to take it and they take it with manners . Until they are given permission it is "mine" . I say mine , it is mine, I say "yours" and they take it. I can change my mind and say "mine" and they will drop the food , even if it is soft food . I walk from the house to the kennels dangling chicken frames by the neck and no dog challenges me or tries to rip me off . Even the tough import adult who had some major spoiling - tried to zoom to close to snap a chicken out of my hand - and all it took was a sharp No , Mine , and that was that. I can go into to the kennels and pick up food . No problem.

It is all a way of being . A comfortable confident way of dealing . Never harsh or punitive . You don't get co operation that way. Loved the story of Mrs. K's dog Dixie !!

**** if you're wondering what I had to go deep into the gullet after , it was a bag of chicken gizzards that had been forgotten , sitting on a table outside in the heat -- it was quite spoiled by the time the dog found it - tried to swallow the whole thing , plastic bag and all . I was able to open the dogs jaws and pull it out with only a few inches of the heavy knotted end of the plastic bag still available to grasp .


----------



## onyx'girl

> _Not necessarily too much dog , possibly too little handler.
> 
> Mindset -- first post when dog is introduced dog is called "little monster" and brat .
> Certainly the dog should not need to seek relief when things have gone too far. Its pretty hands off not to intercede. So dog in control . Looking out for self . Out of necessityThat shows me that this dog has a high threshold . A threshold which has been abused .Playing tug . I don't think this is an activity for young kids and dogs . Everything about kids is different - the way they move, smell, sound, act , and so kids are generalized as another group . Here the kids act , like "wild animals" (in the dog eyes) . They excite , they play tug which is a game but it is a competitive game with a winner and looser and the kids can't have the sophisitication to communicate when enough is enough , so the dog wins ._


:thumbup:


> I'm so angry with Grom right now. My kids usually behave crazy with him like the ordinary 8 and 9 year olds would (of course I teach my kids to respect the pup and mind the boundaries) and Grom was very good with them, he just walked away when kids were too much. They play tug with him. Would pet him and hang around him, while he was chewing his bully stick, and he was just fine with it. I don't know what to expect from him
> and what else can provoke him to behave like that.
> 
> I love my dog and I came to this forum to get advise and help about my situation.
> 
> Thank you for another great advise! :hammer:
> 
> Exactly, attitude. He is being a complete *******.
> 
> That makes sense and that's what I like about my trainer. She beats the crap out of dog only when necessary.
> 
> My trainer is not aware of the timid side of my dog, she never saw him to be timid or afraid.
> I remember a guy in one of the threads who shot his dog for snapping at his child. I really like this guy. Another effective method to deal the a problem, not very positive though.
> I haven't contacted the breeder yet.
> We've started Sch just recently, had only 4-5 sessions, he has no confidence issues during training, he is not afraid of anything and goes right into it. So the trainer sees a very confident and strong dog and judgement of it to be dominant might be spot on, it was stated more as a hormonal and due to his age and lack of respect.


a few snippets from the OP


----------



## msvette2u

Just to clarify, I never said anything about anyone avoiding, so not sure where that came from...


----------



## phgsd

Hmm so apparently there is an issue - I spoke to who I thought the breeder of this puppy was, I guess the breeder is not "von Apoll" (although they did breed the mother of this puppy) and the owner or breeder just used that kennel name for this dog even though it isn't theirs.
Not sure of the whole story, or who the actual breeder of the dog is - but just wanted to update.


----------



## onyx'girl

phgsd said:


> Hmm so apparently there is an issue - I spoke to who I thought the breeder of this puppy was, I guess the breeder is not "von Apoll" (although they did breed the mother of this puppy) and the owner or breeder just used that kennel name for this dog even though it isn't theirs.
> Not sure of the whole story, or who the actual breeder of the dog is - but just wanted to update.


This was in a google search...an ad, I'm assuming, the link was disabled:
Von Apoll Kennel Puppies
vonapollkennlehomestead.com/puppy.htmlExpires 6.30.09. Upcoming Litter. Born May 20,2011. 5Boys & 4 Girls. Sir : Zwack Vom Holzwinkel SchH1 Pedigree. X. Dam: Geisha Von Apoll SchH1 Pedigree.


----------



## phgsd

Hmm I don't know, I am just repeating what I was told. Could be there's more to the story.


----------



## Holmeshx2

phgsd said:


> Hmm so apparently there is an issue - I spoke to who I thought the breeder of this puppy was, I guess the breeder is not "von Apoll" (although they did breed the mother of this puppy) and the owner or breeder just used that kennel name for this dog even though it isn't theirs.
> Not sure of the whole story, or who the actual breeder of the dog is - but just wanted to update.


Hmmmm VERY interesting. I assumed it was a good breeder since everyone commented on how nice the pedigree was but didn't really think a great breeder would give a dog to someone they didn't want to (she said the breeder didn't want her to have the dog originally) so I guess this answers some questions however leaves even more.


----------



## Mrs.K

phgsd said:


> Hmm so apparently there is an issue - I spoke to who I thought the breeder of this puppy was, I guess the breeder is not "von Apoll" (although they did breed the mother of this puppy) and the owner or breeder just used that kennel name for this dog even though it isn't theirs.
> Not sure of the whole story, or who the actual breeder of the dog is - but just wanted to update.


So it's not a dog from A.A?


----------



## phgsd

Mrs.K said:


> So it's not a dog from A.A?


That is what I was just told - not by him, but by the person who handles his breeding and puppy raising, a lot of the selling, training, etc. She said they bred Geisha (and I remember her when she was young), but not the dog in question's litter. 
Again - this is just what I was told, it looks like they did at least post the litter on their website at one point, but maybe they did it as a courtesy and didn't realize the owner of the female would be using their kennel name??? That is just my GUESS though!!


----------



## msvette2u

shepherdmom said:


> I've raised 4 from puppies. All I can say is although they each had their very own personalities, *every single one of them wanted to please us first.*


I honestly think that's how most GSDs are. Labs, too. Very "biddable" dogs, if you will. 
Maybe that's why so many of us have issues with the OPs labeling of this particular pup.


----------



## Mrs.K

phgsd said:


> That is what I was just told - not by him, but by the person who handles his breeding and puppy raising, a lot of the selling, training, etc. She said they bred Geisha (and I remember her when she was young), but not the dog in question's litter.
> Again - this is just what I was told, it looks like they did at least post the litter on their website at one point, but maybe they did it as a courtesy and didn't realize the owner of the female would be using their kennel name??? That is just my GUESS though!!


So somebody else bred the dog? 
As the breeder I'd be pissed. You can't use another persons kennel name, that's fraud. :help:


----------



## phgsd

Mrs.K said:


> So somebody else bred the dog?
> As the breeder I'd be pissed. You can't use another persons kennel name, that's fraud. :help:


Yes; she said they were going to call the owner of the dam of the puppy to get them to remove the kennel name. I'm not sure if that is possible or not though.


----------



## PaddyD

GSD07 said:


> mtmarabianz, the OP responses expose her as a very arrogant ang ignorant person, not just in dog training. At some point it's stopped being taken seriously by many here. I think this thread is important for other people who may encounter similar issues with their dogs, and who are actually willing to open their mind.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him thirsty.
(My version of the saying)


----------



## carmspack

the gloves came off "

Quote:
You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post?????? 
Well then why are they on the forum?? These brilliant people have all this wonderful knowledge but sit there on their hands when people need help??
Makes no sense at all. 

Even the most dense of us will attempt to help -"

sometimes there just is not enough time in the day -- I started my response at 4 a m , and could not complete it till the next day-- too much going on -- 

Cliff worth repeating " I sit on my hands a lot more these days because of replies like you just gave....i don't mind helping people but I am not obligated. And I certainly am not trying to go back and forth with many people who have been in the breed a minute, who have dealt with limited amounts of dogs(their own probably), and are posting solutions to every thread that comes on the board. No information is better than bad information. 
When you argue with fools from afar, then people can't tell which is which!
Their are many people today that substitute their dogs for people, a lot of advice is emotional, and most people on these forums are handlers/owners at most. A dog trainer looks at things considerably different, regardless of the method they use, so to be engaged in these topics where the emotional reponses have staked out a position, most real trainers will shake their head and not touch it because rationale goes out the window with emotion. "

PM's Cassidysmom "Chris does, but sometimes Carmen doesn't answer them at all" . why not? those who have recieved mini booklets

just saw this --- this is hillarious -- " Well, I know you are from Germany and I feel like I need to be direct with so you can understand. Your help is unwanted and not even appreciated. Please, go cook some dinner or go find another topic where you can provide your expertise."

is Mrs K incapable of nuance -- Mrs K I am being very direct with you when I say "I think not" lol. 
I just read the part where the dog was considered to be put down ? holy cow --- being direct , this dog sounds like a strong , healthy (mind-body) dog with high tolerance -- a GOOD dog . Did I read somewhere that the trainer did the dominance , alpha roll thing?
Lost in so many pages in this thread.

Bottom line if this dog is destroyed , that is criminal. For all intents this sounds like a sane, stable, healthy dog.  I won't pull punches if a dog is truly not mentally sane and unstable and a hazard. This is NOT the case with this dog.

The person who bought the dog took pride in the dog being substantially bigger and badder yet is terrified of the "loaded gun" , imagine the sire in the bark and hold inches away , the whole overcast of imminent danger, without any reason for any of this.

If you can't make it with this dog , forget ANY GSD, or any dog , and forget schutzhund . You approach it with the wrong understanding and will represent it to the public in the wrong light.

thank your lucky stars that you did get a stable dog. Imagine if the dog had issues with fear aggression or was highly reactive ?

Carmen

__________________


----------



## Mrs.K

Carmen, I think you should come and cook some Dinner with us 

Certain people do not want to hear that it was simply a normal dogs, reaction pretty much forced due to the owners own fault.


----------



## sashadog

carmspack said:


> the gloves came off "
> 
> Quote:
> You notice that some of the more diplomatic, knowledgable people; about this type of dog and DOG training, aren't touching this post??????
> Well then why are they on the forum?? These brilliant people have all this wonderful knowledge but sit there on their hands when people need help??
> Makes no sense at all.
> 
> Even the most dense of us will attempt to help -"
> 
> sometimes there just is not enough time in the day -- I started my response at 4 a m , and could not complete it till the next day-- too much going on --
> 
> Cliff worth repeating " I sit on my hands a lot more these days because of replies like you just gave....i don't mind helping people but I am not obligated. And I certainly am not trying to go back and forth with many people who have been in the breed a minute, who have dealt with limited amounts of dogs(their own probably), and are posting solutions to every thread that comes on the board. No information is better than bad information.
> When you argue with fools from afar, then people can't tell which is which!
> Their are many people today that substitute their dogs for people, a lot of advice is emotional, and most people on these forums are handlers/owners at most. A dog trainer looks at things considerably different, regardless of the method they use, so to be engaged in these topics where the emotional reponses have staked out a position, most real trainers will shake their head and not touch it because rationale goes out the window with emotion. "
> 
> PM's Cassidysmom "Chris does, but sometimes Carmen doesn't answer them at all" . why not? those who have recieved mini booklets
> 
> just saw this --- this is hillarious -- " Well, I know you are from Germany and I feel like I need to be direct with so you can understand. Your help is unwanted and not even appreciated. Please, go cook some dinner or go find another topic where you can provide your expertise."
> 
> is Mrs K incapable of nuance -- Mrs K I am being very direct with you when I say "I think not" lol.
> I just read the part where the dog was considered to be put down ? holy cow --- being direct , this dog sounds like a strong , healthy (mind-body) dog with high tolerance -- a GOOD dog . Did I read somewhere that the trainer did the dominance , alpha roll thing?
> Lost in so many pages in this thread.
> 
> Bottom line if this dog is destroyed , that is criminal. For all intents this sounds like a sane, stable, healthy dog. I won't pull punches if a dog is truly not mentally sane and unstable and a hazard. This is NOT the case with this dog.
> 
> The person who bought the dog took pride in the dog being substantially bigger and badder yet is terrified of the "loaded gun" , imagine the sire in the bark and hold inches away , the whole overcast of imminent danger, without any reason for any of this.
> 
> If you can't make it with this dog , forget ANY GSD, or any dog , and forget schutzhund . You approach it with the wrong understanding and will represent it to the public in the wrong light.
> 
> thank your lucky stars that you did get a stable dog. Imagine if the dog had issues with fear aggression or was highly reactive ?
> 
> Carmen
> 
> __________________


Spot on


----------



## carmspack

Mrs K --- actually I LOVE to cook - and I know I would enjoy the company - and lively discussions .


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I say give Grom to Carmen or Mrs. K!


----------



## Jessiewessie99

holmeshx2 said:


> depends on the question more then likely choosing a breeder should be the right section.
> 
> 
> *
> very very sweet offer jessie however if you make your brownies i'm sure she's not gonna have much to say that would be very informative lol.*
> 
> 
> 
> thank you!!!


shhh!!!lol!


----------



## Mrs.K

Jessiewessie99 said:


> shhh!!!lol!


Now I want one. Pleeaaauuuze!


----------



## Lialla

carmspack said:


> Grom. Quick , immediate response. Not necessarily too much dog , possibly too little handler.
> 
> A dog is the product of his genetics, his environment which includes those experiences to which he is exposed and training .
> 
> Dogs have an accelerated maturation yet people want to keep them infantile , neotonize them. A pup taken home at 8 weeks is malleable , which means that you are responsible for developing the dog that you want . At that age . The handler gets the dog that he deserves.
> 
> Here is one thing for anyone reading this -- studies have shown (Pfaffenberger - Scott and Fuller , Bradshaw) that the only trait resistant to change is genetically based fear .
> 
> 8 months in the relative terms of human developmen, is not a dog-baby .
> 
> A dog that age, living on the street as they do all over the world in feral packs would be quite capable of fending for itself, even copulating and siring a litter . In that setting they would try to fit themselves into the structure of their fellow canine family , some harmony , some co-operation.
> 
> I believe that is what healthy dogs do when they live with us -- and I have no reason to think that this dog , Grom, is not balanced or unhealthy -- very normal d o g .
> 
> Playing tug . I don't think this is an activity for young kids and dogs . Everything about kids is different - the way they move, smell, sound, act , and so kids are generalized as another group . Here the kids act , like "wild animals" (in the dog eyes) . They excite , they play tug which is a game but it is a competitive game with a winner and looser and the kids can't have the sophisitication to communicate when enough is enough , so the dog wins .


Thank you. That was useful information. I got similar explanation of my dog's behavior from the professional. I've changed quiet a few things to address that as well as setting a right "pack structure" in our household. I already see positive changes. My "brat"  is a bit surprised by all the changes (that the kids come first). 

But one thing that you missed is if I didn't grab Grom at the right moment when he lunged at my child, we could have had a completely different conversation or none at all. 

I'll leave the rest uncommented.


----------



## RocketDog

OP, several pages back I posted some genuine questions. I still don't understand why you keep saying that about your son, when the dog growled _at you first _. Why did you let your son near him after that first growl?


----------



## onyx'girl

I hope you got more out of the comments from Carmen that you didn't quote....this~
_
Not necessarily too much dog , possibly too little handler.

Mindset -- first post when dog is introduced dog is called "little monster" and brat .
*Certainly the dog should not need to seek relief when things have gone too far. Its pretty hands off not to intercede*. So dog in control . Looking out for self . Out of necessity. That shows me that this dog has a high threshold . *A threshold which has been abused* .Playing tug . I don't think this is an activity for young kids and dogs . Everything about kids is different - the way they move, smell, sound, act , and so kids are generalized as another group . Here the kids act , like "wild animals" (in the dog eyes) . They excite , they play tug which is a game but it is a competitive game with a winner and looser and the kids can't have the sophisitication to communicate when enough is enough , so the dog wins ._


----------



## Lialla

phgsd said:


> I know the breeder...they have been informed. Sorry OP but I have the dog's best interests at heart. I hope they can talk some sense into you.


At some point, you'll cross the line. Some people could lose their job or their business when authorities ask them why they disclosed personal info to strangers, you included. You mentioned the assistant, I know the name. 

There is a big difference between putting your frustration on the forum and getting into personal lives. I hope you are getting my point.


----------



## Lialla

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I say give Grom to Carmen or Mrs. K!


First, Mrs. K should make a room in her herd. I wonder whose place he will take. Btw, it's a good topic for discussion at your cookout party.

p.s. just don't eat too much 'kraut', you can get a stomach ache.


----------



## Lialla

RocketDog said:


> OP, several pages back I posted some genuine questions. I still don't understand why you keep saying that about your son, when the dog growled _at you first _. Why did you let your son near him after that first growl?


My son was walking past the crate on the way to the kitchen. Grom looked at him and growled.


----------



## RocketDog

It sounded like he lunged. But I guess my question is, if it had been me and he growled at me, I would've issued an emergency warning to the entire house that the dog was not to be handled or approached by anyone but a parent starting immediately. And the issue would've been addressed starting _at that moment. _. Why didn't you stop in your tracks?


----------



## onyx'girl

Lialla, have there been any other incidents with Grom and growling, acting snappy?


----------



## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> At some point, you'll cross the line. Some people could lose their job or their business when authorities ask them why they disclosed personal info to strangers, you included. You mentioned the assistant, I know the name.
> 
> There is a big difference between putting your frustration on the forum and getting into personal lives. I hope you are getting my point.


Maybe you shouldn't have put your dogs full name into the signature.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I think all the good that could come out of this thread, and some has, it has gone past it's expiration date. Don't see much good from the direction it's going now. Time to PTS the thread.


----------



## phgsd

The point is that you made threats on your dog's life - this is a public forum, I'm pretty sure there is nothing illegal about sending someone a link to a thread.  You made those comments and said that you were serious. 

I feel bad for the dog, and hope that you will take the advice of some of the expert members of the board. But I guess I've done all I can do!! :headbang:


----------



## shepherdmom

carmspack said:


> tried to zoom to close to snap a chicken out of my hand - and all it took was a sharp No , Mine , and that was that. I can go into to the kennels and pick up food . No problem.
> 
> *Funny that is my command too. Mine. I can set my plate down with food and say mine and they won't touch it. At least as long as I'm in the room. LOL*
> 
> Loved the story of Mrs. K's dog Dixie !!
> 
> *Me too! Thanks for sharing Mrs. K.*
> 
> **** if you're wondering what I had to go deep into the gullet after , it was a bag of chicken gizzards that had been forgotten , sitting on a table outside in the heat -- it was quite spoiled by the time the dog found it - tried to swallow the whole thing , plastic bag and all . I was able to open the dogs jaws and pull it out with only a few inches of the heavy knotted end of the plastic bag still available to grasp .


Ewwww... Lol.. Glad you got it out and that's exactly the reason it is so important to to train them young that it is ok to take stuff. It can be a safety issue, because everyone who has a shepherd knows they will eventually get into something they are not supposed too.


----------



## onyx'girl

I sent a link to a thread from here to a very well known breeder...the dog was in a shelter or rescue situation and the breeder had every right to know. It was a responsible breeder and he was on it immediately. 
I think phgsd did right, regardless~ and I wouldn't hesitate to do the same if I thought a responsible breeders dog was in possible danger. The breeder that isn't responsible could care less, of course.


----------



## Lialla

RocketDog said:


> It sounded like he lunged. But I guess my question is, if it had been me and he growled at me, I would've issued an emergency warning to the entire house that the dog was not to be handled or approached by anyone but a parent starting immediately. And the issue would've been addressed starting _at that moment. _. Why didn't you stop in your tracks?


I think I described the sequence of events on the first 3 pages. Maybe not very clearly though. You are probably right, I shouldn't have involved the kids. I thought that after he listened to me he calmed down and at that time I thought it was a good idea to bring the kids in order to show him that he has to listen to them as well. He was calm and obeying, but then lunged at my son. 

I wanted to get an advice on what to do with all that now and not get into explaining myself all over again.


----------



## msvette2u

I find that if my dogs respect me, they listen to my kids. 
There's many good things you do, but there's many things that are a mistake too.
There's a lot of good advice on here about how to handle the dog (sans kids) and not make those mistakes.


----------



## Jax08

Lialla said:


> I think I described the sequence of events on the first 3 pages. Maybe not very clearly though. You are probably right, I shouldn't have involved the kids. I thought that after he listened to me he calmed down and at that time I thought it was a good idea to bring the kids in order to show him that he has to listen to them as well. He was calm and obeying, but then lunged at my son.
> 
> I wanted to get an advice on what to do with all that now and not get into explaining myself all over again.


I don't know if this is relevant to THIS situation but I read that when a dog is in a dog fight that it takes a few days for the hormones and adrenalin to work out of their system. I wonder if the reason he growled and lunged at your son is he was still 'worked' up? Maybe ask your trainer if this might be possible?


----------



## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> I think I described the sequence of events on the first 3 pages. Maybe not very clearly though. You are probably right, I shouldn't have involved the kids. I thought that after he listened to me he calmed down and at that time I thought it was a good idea to bring the kids in order to show him that he has to listen to them as well. He was calm and obeying, but then lunged at my son.
> 
> I wanted to get an advice on what to do with all that now and not get into explaining myself all over again.


No. You did not explain clearly at all. You made it sound like you let you son get closer and that he lunged BEFORE you had you kids do obedience with him. 

As long as the dog is not solid in everything he does with you, the kids should not be involved.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> No. You did not explain clearly at all. You made it sound like you let you son get closer and that he lunged BEFORE you had you kids do obedience with him.
> 
> As long as the dog is not solid in everything he does with you, the kids should not be involved.


Why don't you give it a rest?

I think her explanation of why she wanted the kids to do some supervised obedience with the dog sounds reasonable. Maybe in this instance it wasn't the right thing to do. But it was certainly better than pretending that nothing happened, until someone needs stitches. And it is better than putting a perfectly good dog down for no reason.


----------



## GregK

Jax08 said:


> when a dog is in a dog fight that it takes a few days for the hormones and adrenalin to work out of their system. I wonder if the reason he growled and lunged at your son is he was still 'worked' up?


Absolutely! I'm glad you brought this up.


----------



## Lialla

phgsd said:


> The point is that you made threats on your dog's life - this is a public forum, I'm pretty sure there is nothing illegal about sending someone a link to a thread.  You made those comments and said that you were serious.
> 
> I feel bad for the dog, and hope that you will take the advice of some of the expert members of the board. But I guess I've done all I can do!! :headbang:


Well, you've put so much effort into that and now try to slide by on "a link to a thread". You said you called, I'm sure you shared all info you have now with all those 'wilted hotties'. Time will tell whether you got the point.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Why don't you give it a rest?
> 
> I think her explanation of why she wanted the kids to do some supervised obedience with the dog sounds reasonable. Maybe in this instance it wasn't the right thing to do. But it was certainly better than pretending that nothing happened, until someone needs stitches. And it is better than putting a perfectly good dog down for no reason.


Selzer, if she had given that additional information from the beginning, the entire topic would have taken a different path. So if there is anything else she left out, it'd be good to know in order to actually give advise. 

She did say, he's never done that before and that it was the first time. Was it? 

She did say, she leaned down to pet the dog, then her son got closer an he lunged, then she told him to drop the bully and had him do obedience and then the kids did. Instead, he growled, she made him do obedience, her kids did obedience, she gave him the bully stick back, then the son walked by the crate and THEN he lunged.


----------



## RocketDog

Lialla said:


> I think I described the sequence of events on the first 3 pages. Maybe not very clearly though. You are probably right, I shouldn't have involved the kids. I thought that after he listened to me he calmed down and at that time I thought it was a good idea to bring the kids in order to show him that he has to listen to them as well. He was calm and obeying, but then lunged at my son.
> 
> I wanted to get an advice on what to do with all that now and not get into explaining myself all over again.


I'm glad to hear things are a bit better. Personally, while I've always given my dogs the impression my kids come first, I didn't have my kids do much if anything in the way of training or commands until they were older. My second born is a natural, and has always had that "way" with animals, horses too. She taught my pup now to roll over by herself, and I can trust her to do basic training---but she's 13 1/2, too. And she grew up with big dogs. IMHO I'd follow the trainers suggestions, provided they're a sound trainer. And supervise all interaction with the kids and dog until he's a trusted, _mature_ member of the family. By then, the kids will be a few years older.


----------



## Lialla

phgsd;2387044:rolleyes: You made those comments and said that you were serious.
I feel bad for the dog said:


> and yes, I'll put my dog down if I ever see him to be a threat to my child. I don't want it to come to that, but you can take it very seriously.


----------



## onyx'girl

Instead of putting your dog down, maybe return Grom to the breeder? 
If your children push Grom past his threshold, he may bite....dogs do bite children way too often. Guess who's fault it usually is? Who gets blamed? Fair???
Return/rehome your dog instead of dwelling on how much of a monster you think he is or 'Dominant Brat' according to your signature. I'm sure he'd find a much better match elsewhere.
With that mindset, he is already set up to fail


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Selzer, if she had given that additional information from the beginning, the entire topic would have taken a different path. So if there is anything else she left out, it'd be good to know in order to actually give advise.
> 
> She did say, he's never done that before and that it was the first time. Was it?
> 
> She did say, she leaned down to pet the dog, then her son got closer an he lunged, then she told him to drop the bully and had him do obedience and then the kids did. Instead, he growled, she made him do obedience, her kids did obedience, she gave him the bully stick back, then the son walked by the crate and THEN he lunged.


Mrs. K, some people are not born possessing the knowledge of exactly how much information they give so that they do not give too much or too little on their first forum post. Sometimes, they do not know what information is vital to get the information they need. 

The thing is, we are beating the kid aspect of this to death for some reason. Does it really give you pain to just let it go?


----------



## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> Instead of putting your dog down, maybe return Grom to the breeder?
> If your children push Grom past his threshold, he may bite....dogs do bite children way too often. Guess who's fault it usually is? Who gets blamed? Fair???
> Return/rehome your dog instead of dwelling on how much of a monster you think he is or 'Dominant Brat' according to your signature. I'm sure he'd find a much better match elsewhere.
> With that mindset, he is already set up to fail


Frankly, maybe more people should accept that if they fail their dog, they might have to put their dog down. If they accept this fact early on in the game, hopefully it will never come to that.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Mrs. K, some people are not born possessing the knowledge of exactly how much information they give so that they do not give too much or too little on their first forum post. Sometimes, they do not know what information is vital to get the information they need.
> 
> The thing is, we are beating the kid aspect of this to death for some reason. Does it really give you pain to just let it go?



This is what is going to happen:



> and yes, I'll put my dog down if I ever see him to be a threat to my child. I don't want it to come to that, but you can take it very seriously.


And this needs to be quoted again: 


> *Instead of putting your dog down, maybe return Grom to the breeder?
> If your children push Grom past his threshold, he may bite....dogs do bite children way too often. Guess who's fault it usually is? Who gets blamed? Fair???
> Return/rehome your dog instead of dwelling on how much of a monster you think he is or 'Dominant Brat' according to your signature. I'm sure he'd find a much better match elsewhere.
> With that mindset, he is already set up to fail*


----------



## RocketDog

My posts were directly in response to the statements about PTS if the dog became a threat to her children. That was the main thrust of her first post-- how to keep her children safe. Its the title of the thread.


----------



## onyx'girl

Absolutely Selzer! I had that in my mind with both Onyx and Karlo...failing them was/is in my mind at all times. And when you do have a dog that has to be carefully managed, setting them up to succeed is so very important. Same goes for raising children...though we never know how it works out with them until they spread their wings, then it may be too late.


----------



## Lialla

selzer said:


> Mrs. K, Does it really give you pain to just let it go?


Because it is a German way. And they will blame anything before admiting anything. Maybe I need to come in T-34, like my grandparents did in '45, so she admits a reality.


----------



## phgsd

What in the world are "wilted hotties??"
And no - I never said I called, I sent an e-mail with a link to the thread and talked via messages online.
Anyway, I give up, if 69 pages hasn't helped, I don't know what will...


----------



## Lialla

GregK said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Jax08
> when a dog is in a dog fight that it takes a few days for the hormones and adrenalin to work out of their system. I wonder if the reason he growled and lunged at your son is he was still 'worked' up.
> 
> Absolutely! I'm glad you brought this up.


Thanks for bringing that to my attention.


----------



## Mrs.K

Lialla said:


> Because it is a German way. And they will blame anything before admiting anything. Maybe I need to come in T-34, like my grandparents did in '45, so she admits a reality.



....


----------



## GregK

Lialla said:


> Because it is a German way. And they will blame anything before admiting anything.


Oh heck yeah. Any mistake I make or any dumb thing I do... it's my wife's fault.


----------



## Mrs.K

GregK said:


> Oh heck yeah. Any mistake I make or any dumb thing I do... it's my wife's fault.



Isn't it great having somebody to point the finger at? 

@Lialla: I am glad my husband is fighting for your freedom of speech. My grandmother was actually from Poland. So thanks for the History lesson!


----------



## ksotto333

Does anyone else remember Shari Lewis and Lambchops... This is the song that never ends..This thread makes me think of that song..


----------



## Mrs.K

Sesame Street: Shari Lewis and Lambchop - YouTube

Love this one


----------



## GregK

Mrs.K said:


> Isn't it great having somebody to point the finger at?


 
it never works though.  She just tells me to go pound sand up my......


----------



## Mrs.K

GregK said:


> it never works though.  She just tells me to go pound sand up my......


:rofl:

Sounds familiar. 

Because we are A.L.W.A.Y.S right. :wild:


----------



## Lialla

phgsd said:


> What in the world are "wilted hotties??"
> And no - I never said I called, I sent an e-mail with a link to the thread and talked via messages online.
> Anyway, I give up, if 69 pages hasn't helped, I don't know what will...


Did you actually made them read all 69 pages before they gave you all details? They have to be objective, you know. But it maybe considered as a torture by some. 

P.s. Which word do you want to be explained? Hotties? I refuse to believe you are that old :rofl:


----------



## ksotto333

Originally Posted by *Lialla*  
_Because it is a German way. And they will blame anything before admiting anything._

_Crap.. I'm German.. now everyone will know my plan of action..just don't tell my BF..._


----------



## Mrs.K

ksotto333 said:


> Originally Posted by *Lialla*
> _Because it is a German way. And they will blame anything before admiting anything._
> 
> _Crap.. I'm German.. now everyone will know my plan of action..just don't tell my BF..._


Oh yeah, and we need to be kept in line, like our Grandparents, because we are evil, always striving for power.


----------



## ksotto333

Mrs.K said:


> Oh yeah, and we need to be kept in line, like our Grandparents, because we are evil, always striving for power.


 
Well, and that too...aranoid:


----------



## GregK

Mrs.K said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Sounds familiar.
> 
> Because we are A.L.W.A.Y.S right. :wild:


:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

We just let you believe that.


----------



## carmspack

Mrs.K said:


> ....


 
OFFENSIVE -- T-34 is a Soviet tank , and this constant emphasis on Mrs K's German background, shared by many on the list by the way , is offensive .

Carmen


----------



## GregK

Mrs.K said:


> Oh yeah, and we need to be kept in line, like our Grandparents, because we are evil, always striving for power.


 


ksotto333 said:


> Well, and that too...aranoid:


Could be worse. You could be wilted hotties.


----------



## Lialla

GregK said:


> wilted hotties.


What, you don't know?! Just google it. It's a new hot trend. But you might be surprised with the first link.

:rofl:


----------



## mtmarabianz

Lithuanian Polish Here :crazy:

Call Me EVIL

But the More I Read the OP's Posts

The More I Find Myself Wishing For A Level Playing Field
(for her dog anyway)

With Thoughts Of: 

Wish She Had An 8 Month Old 

Son

Of

Boban von den Grauen von Monstab

Maybe  her Fingers Wouldn't Be So Nimble On the Keyboard


----------



## shepherdmom

Lialla said:


> and yes, I'll put my dog down if I ever see him to be a threat to my child. I don't want it to come to that, but you can take it very seriously.


I don't want to get drawn back into the argument again but I suspect some of the posters don't quite get the fact that ANY threat to your kids would be put down... and I'm sure you are not just talking about dogs. 

They have ticked off what my kids call "mama bear" and when she comes out watch out.  

As a "mama bear" myself I have to ask you did you really feel like your child was threatened? You were concerned and scared as you should have been but did you feel like your child was in danger? Think hard about that and if you did/do, then it is time to find the dog a new home before he gets to the point where "mama bear" will have to act. Our human children come first, but if you can save both wouldn't that be the best all around solution?


----------



## GSD07

Why on earth would a Germanophobe want to own a GSD? :crazy:


----------



## shepherdmom

ksotto333 said:


> Does anyone else remember Shari Lewis and Lambchops... This is the song that never ends..This thread makes me think of that song..


hahahaha Oh yes I remember it. Does that date me? LOL


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> OFFENSIVE -- T-34 is a Soviet tank , and this constant emphasis on Mrs K's German background, shared by many on the list by the way , is offensive .
> 
> Carmen


Eh, it's okay. Thanks for the backup, though 

The T34 was used in the Normandy as Rocket Launcher. However, the first tanks to be deployed into the war by Americans were the M3 if I am not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong


----------



## carmspack

Mrs K , I have no idea . I use the old battle axe.
I am reading "1938" at the moment .
My husband taught history -- so all I had to yell out what is a T 34 and he had the answer. Sounds like a tax return form ( T 4 ) and that is another way to flatten you.


----------



## Shaina

mtmarabianz said:


> Boban von den Grauen von Monstab



Whole nother can of worms right there! I almost got a dog from lines related to his... did quite a bit of studying on that dog.


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Mrs K , I have no idea . I use the old battle axe.
> I am reading "1938" at the moment .
> My husband taught history -- so all I had to yell out what is a T 34 and he had the answer. Sounds like a tax return form ( T 4 ) and that is another way to flatten you.


Oh, I know it is. Just like the "She needs to make room in her herd first" and "wonder who he would re-place"... 

I love history and it's always good to have history buff on your hands. :wub:

1938 by Yad Vashem?


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## Mrs.K

Shaina said:


> Whole nother can of worms right there! I almost got a dog from lines related to his... did quite a bit of studying on that dog.


He's around 9 or 10 now, isn't he?


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## Debbieg

carmspack said:


> Mrs K , I have no idea . I use the old battle axe.
> I am reading "1938" at the moment .
> My husband taught history -- so all I had to yell out what is a T 34 and he had the answer. Sounds like a tax return form ( T 4 ) and that is another way to flatten you.


:rofl::rofl: Sounds like my guy!

I needed that after a 12 hour work day and reading more posts on this thread. Still hoping for the best for Grom. He sounds like a great dog that someone should posting pics and brags about, not threatening to end his life; a dog with so much potential.


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## AbbyK9

The T-34 Lialla is talking about was a Russian tank ... a big, solid, hulking behemoth that stood up to the majority of German anti-tank guns except the 88 ... at least until the Germans equipped their tanks with 75mm guns in 1942. The main issues of the T-34 were related to the fact that they weren't exactly mechanically reliable. Sometimes the engines would just stop and give out. 

I find it interesting, on a side note, that those who love to talk about history seem to never mention that a huge percentage of Russian equipment was lend-lease equipment from the Americans. Guns, trucks, Jeeps, etc. And loads and loads of Spam. I think the Russians, in particular, always love to make it look like they did it all on their own.

Of course, those who like to talk about history ... especially those who would use history as a way to personally insult other members of a forum ... may do well to remember that THEY weren't there personally and that they also don't know a thing about the families of those they are insulting. Just because someone was born in Germany doesn't mean that those in their families who were alive back then were. 

Remember ... a closed mouth gathers no feet.

Eh ... and on a note of tanks used by the Americans, the first were M2's and used on Gualdalcanal in 1942, by the Marine Corps.


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## Castlemaid

I'd like to quote this post as a last word:


onyx'girl said:


> Instead of putting your dog down, maybe return Grom to the breeder?
> If your children push Grom past his threshold, he may bite....dogs do bite children way too often. Guess who's fault it usually is? Who gets blamed? Fair???
> Return/rehome your dog instead of dwelling on how much of a monster you think he is or 'Dominant Brat' according to your signature. I'm sure he'd find a much better match elsewhere.
> With that mindset, he is already set up to fail


And with that, this thread is closed as it is getting personal, and disturbingly threatening.


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