# my puppy bit my niece



## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

My puppy is about 3 months old. He is male full blood.
I work offshore and I was home for the first three weeks we had him, and now I have been gone for a week.

His name is Tres Beau - we call him BO. Bo sits and downs and stays and a couple of days before I left home I had him ringing the bell to go outside. Smartest dog I have ever had. I was with him 24/7 for the first two weeks, and took him everywhere with me. To petsmart usually twice a week for bath and brush and socializing in general etc,..

He has been protective since the first week I had him and has barked and growled. 
He is taking training classes at petsmart and my sixteen year old son has been working with him since I left. The petsmart training so far is useless except for the socialization with other dogs because we are so past "watch me" and sit. Like I said I was with hiim 24/7 for a couple weeks and took full advantage of the opportunity.

So, on to the problem. My wife tells me a few days ago that Bo was growling and snapping at my daughter whenever she would try to take something from him. I told her to start working on the drop it command. Today my niece came over and Bo had picked up a wallet someone dropped and as my niece went to take it from him Bo jumped up and bit her throat. I don't know how bad it is they are sending me pics right now. I am sure if I had been there it would have never happened. 
The truth is my family will help but they aren't as interested or as committed to the dog as I am. (I am almost obsessive about it) Now I am feeling disillusioned and confused. Just need some words of advice. I always have kids coming and going around my house. Anyway thanks for this site and any advice.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

First understand, Bo is still a puppy who doesn't know any better. He needs to be taught what is exceptable and what isn't. Just like you would a child. He needs to be supervised by an adult at all times. (Not sure how old your niece is) And you are right, petsmart classes are useless. 

Are you using NILF with him? If not, I would suggest starting that right away. Also start having everyone start taking things from him and be there to correct him if growls or snaps. I've always used the "no bite" techinque. 

The main thing to keep in mind, is that he is still a baby and testing his bounderies.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:My puppy is about 3 months old. He is male full blood.





> Quote: He has been protective since the first week I had him and has barked and growled.


A normal 3 month old puppy should be happy and fun and playful! Delighted to be in new places and meet new people/dogs. Need to be exercised like the Energizer Bunny. And main goal as a owner is to socialize and make my pup continue to be like that.

NOT OBEDIENCE TRAINING.

Exercise, socialization, play play play, housebreaking. Going everywhere, doing everything. NOT STRICT OBEDIENCE TRAINING. This age is the equivalent of a child being in pre-school. They have the attention span of a gnat and can keep going and going and going.................

And both my GSD's were VERY mouthy, but it's the only way they know how to play. And if they weren't biting in play, they would NOT be biting to protect. A young puppy is like a pre-schooler, do you think a toddler can tell a good guy from a bad guy? NOT. They may be afraid and not go to someone, but otherwise the world is a happy place.

It's hard to tell from this website and the fact you weren't there to really tell about the bite, except it was NOT from protection. Either fearful or playful. Both need to be managed, and the fearful biting should be a huge concern. 

Finding the time in a busy family to spend an hour or so one on one with a puppy can be very hard. So the socialization and play needed can be a challenge. Without it, I know my puppies would become a bit like psycho pups and somewhat out of control. All of us have the bite inhibition problems and click here for some ideas. 

Here are some sites with good info on how to raise our pups during the first year:

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/understandyourpuppy.htm

http://www.dogshome.org/docs/G852_GermShepherd_FactsheetQXD.pdf

http://www.gsdhelpline.com/willis2.htm

http://home.flash.net/~astroman/primer1.html


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think 3 months old is rather young to be growling and barking. seek the advice of a pro and get your family involved in his training and socializing.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

I would suggest that no children take anything from the pup, until you establish your leadership and address his possession issues. He was just taken from his litter less than a month ago, and that bahavior of growling and snapping at one another is how they handle things. Puppies dont know the difference between their fur-littermates and they human ones (which is how he views your children as of now). You cannot expect him to understand and know what is acceptable and what is not, if you do not teach him. They are animals, and in our world agression is a big no-no, but in their world its a part of life. So it must be taught before the proper behavior can be expected. 

Good Luck!!!


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## gdog1985 (May 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi think 3 months old is rather young to be growling and barking. seek the advice of a pro and get your family involved in his training and socializing.


I agree and I agree with the previous post that at 3 months old your puppy should be happy go lucky. What are his parents like?


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

I'm glad you both answered. Of course I know it wasn't from protection. I mentioned that because that was the only aggressive behavior I had seen from him.

I am speculating he was simply showing my niece (8yr old) that he is higher up the pack order than her. A kind of correction, maybe?

At any rate I have felt that maybe I was too intense on the training so far but it was so incredible to see how focused and intense Bo is when learning something new. When I grab the clicker and the treat bag that dog zeroes in on me and goes into training mode instantly. Very food motivated.
I trained him for no more than ten minutes at a stretch and then I would periodically throw a command at him just to see. I am convinced that the dog is a genius. It took about a day and a half to learn to ring the bell. 

Unfortunately I live in Lufkin Texas. Finding serious dog people there is an exercise in futility. Everyone has a dog but none of them know anything about dogs. There is no leash law, and people are basically just backwards. A bunch of stupid ******** with dogs penned up in their backyards that they feed every day and thats about it. I try to talk about training with people here and dog behaviors but it is like explaining physics to a chicken. It is so frustrating!! 
If there is anyone here from close to me I would love to talk!


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## gdog1985 (May 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Tres Beau....I am speculating he was simply showing my niece (8yr old) that he is higher up the pack order than her. A kind of correction, maybe....


I'm not sure this was the case and if it was, i'm not sure that it's a good thing. If you take him out to Petsmart and he decides to show a child in the store that he's "higher up in the the pack order" by grabbing it by the throat you'll have yourself a major problem.

Keep up the attention and working with him but make sure that you correct behavior such as the growling and snapping as soon as it happens or he'll keep it up. YOU'RE the highest up in the packing order.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

So if he decides to show a person in petsmart he is higher in the pack and bites their throat that is a bad thing? 

Good info,.. I hadn't thought of that.
thanx


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Tres BeauSo if he decides to show a person in petsmart he is higher in the pack and bites their throat that is a bad thing?


You might have just beaten me out for the sarcasm award I was given back in 1994 by a physician I worked with. You, my friend, are a master.








Please don't think I am making light of the situation, just that comment. I hope you find good solutions to this problem. Wish I had something constructive to say but I'm new at this.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

seriously I thank everyone for their help. I really do. I am just frustrated because I am out here in the gulf of mexico and not there to supervise. I know what to do when I'm home. 

My gamble was that my wife could handle it while I am gone, and if I am to be chastised for anything it would be that. I know about separation anxiety and I know about the dominant pack member. I know it would be better if I was there every day. I did not just wake up one day and decide I wanted a 90 pound ball of muscle and fur with teeth. I have researched. I'm not an expert but I know more than many. I knew that my being gone would be tricky but I am hoping to make it work. 
sorry for the sarcasm but that comes natural


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Have you done any bite inhibition work with him? My pup is a little over 5 months now and his absolute favorite chew toy is still my hands. But he hasn't broken the skin in over a month or so now. I started early on to make sure that he knew that humans were wimpy little things that hurt easily. And that if he hurt me I would not let him chew my hands. If he bit too hard I would yelp and turn away. You should have seen all of the licking and apologizing. Now he has a gentle mouth like a setter. We were playing fetch the other day with one of those cheap water bottles that are real thin. It was full of water and I figured he'd chomp big holes in it but he retrieved it everytime and brought it back without so much as a small hole. I was amazed.
I have a 6 yo grand daughter that plays with him but he is still a little rambunctious with her. He always wants to jump up on her but has never offered to bite her. Of course big old sharp claws scratch and hurt on little girls. 
At 3 months they are just beginning to enter their full knothead phase. If you play rough with him he'll play rough with everybody.
Unless your little knothead has some serious temperament problems I would think that he is just being a GSD pup and the episode with the neice was just rough play.
I agree about the obedience training being a little early. But training to be well mannered and knowing what the word NO! means is never done too early.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

A bite from a puppy that young is really out of the ordinary. 

A 3 month old puppy, no matter how smart, should not be pulling rank unless he is VERY dominant. If that is the case then everyone in your family needs to get on board with his training right now. If you don't have trainers nearby then read books and set up training sessions where you teach your family how to work with him in order to make sure everyone is consistent. 

I would use Nothing in Life is Free and use positive reinforcement with him for everything. Clicker training is a good thing to look into. You want him to look to all of you as leaders. 

Someone asked about his lines--did you meet both of his parents? What were they like? What lines is he from?

In order to be sure nothing like this happens again I would keep him leashed to you, your son or your wife whenever company is over or keep him crated. Use treats or toys as rewards for good behavior and redirect with undesirable behavior but be sure he can't be making decisions about what is his (the wallet) and who comes and goes in your house.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08 Have you done any bite inhibition work with him? My pup is a little over 5 months now and his absolute favorite chew toy is still my hands. But he hasn't broken the skin in over a month or so now. I started early on to make sure that he knew that humans were wimpy little things that hurt easily. And that if he hurt me I would not let him chew my hands. If he bit too hard I would yelp and turn away. You should have seen all of the licking and apologizing.


That's what I'm wondering too. You didn't say how old your niece was, or maybe I missed it. A 3 month old puppy play biting can do some damage to a young child unintentionally, it's not necessarily out of aggression, he just doesn't know his own strength or understand that he's hurting you. It does sound like he's got some resource guarding issues that need to be addressed, but that's not an insurmountable problem. 

I'd start working with him right away with trading games - you give me what you've got (a low value item initially) for something better, so he learns that giving up stuff is rewarding. Practice several times a day with a variety of things - a toy for a treat, a treat for a bone, a bone for a ball, etc. That's one of those things that I start working on immediately with a new puppy.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It says the neice is 8. I wonder how they are handling taking objects away from him now? I agree with Cassidy's Mom that trading is the way to go. Then thereis no chance he thinks it's a game or he thinks everything is being unfairly taken from him and has a reason to guard.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

Trading is the way I have advised the family to go as well, and along with crating him when company is over if not supervised. 
To answer an earlier question NILF has been practiced since the third or fourth day err,.. well maybe starting the second week. I cannot speak to the consistency of behavior of either pet or family while I am gone, but at any rate, it is supposed to be NILF always. 

I mentioned in my second post I use clicker training. Which leads me into an answer and a question.
My dog likes training and has already shown his capacity to learn and his willingness to do so. As long as it is fun and not stressful I don't see the harm, but I could be wrong. How do you guys define STRICT OBEDIENCE training?

Here is where I admit another mistake. I have seen your questions of parents. I don't know them I have never seen them and have no idea about them. Let me say again where I live. I live in Lufkin Texas. They don't sell gsd's there. They don't sell labs or border collies or any other pure bred. In lufkin they sell dogs. 
The closest breeder I found was almost 4 hours away. somedayislekennels.com if you wish to see. As soon as I get the papers in the mail I will inform of the bloodlines. I wish I could have visited the kennel before I got him. I wish I could have known the temperament and so forth but unfortunately I had to compromise.
As I said before. I would love to meet some serious dog owners around East Texas and if anyone knows any please PM me and I will be glad to provide my phone number. 
I'll put up some pics and move on to another topic soon enough, and once again thanks to all of you who responded. Even to the guy who said biting is bad.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Something sounds very very wrong here. This is a 12 week old puppy that is showing actual aggression over posessions and lashed out at a childs THROAT!? Too much obedience does not creat this (in fact it would just make a pup a little more timid). Trading games are great, but that is going to be a drop in the bucket if this is what is really happening. Looking at the breeder's site, they do not title their dogs or do anything with them but sell them. No health clearances, no pedigrees. Nothing. There is a mention of American working lines??? My guess is you have one of three issues... 1. This pup has something medically wrong with him and he is lashing out because of it or 2. He is genetically mentally unsound (WAY WAY unsound) or 3. He is an extremely hard and dominant puppy that will grow up to be a massive handful. I would suggest you get this pup evaluated by an experienced trainer ASAP. This does not seem right.


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## cgarrity (Apr 22, 2008)

This pup sounds like a time bomb. I would contact the breeder immediately and see if you can bring him back and get a refund. Even if you can't get a refund, just bring him back. You may be dealing with a serious and dangerous behavioral issue here that you cannot control because you are not living in the home most of the time. He sounds like he is way too difficult for your wife to handle. You don't want ,or need, the liability that a dangerous dog will bring to you if he harms anyone. Cut the ties to this one before it's too late. Normal 3 month old pups don't lunge at and bite someone's throat. I would recommend finding another pup from a breeder that uses sound breeding practices. If he's doing this at age 3 months what will he be doing when he's 6 mos. or 1 year old and much larger and difficult to control?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Does anyone know a behaviorist or reputable rescue (we see a lot of "problem" puppies) in that area to help them?


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## Rosie (Oct 22, 2007)

I wouldn't take the pup back to THAT breeder. Obviously they are not responsible and shouldn't be given the chance to rehome it.
Tres Beau, is your wife willing to work with Bo as well as your son? I think your family should be given a chance if they all want to keep the dog. And the first rule is, Don't set the pup up for failure! Make sure he isn't around company or your daughter until he is under control. Some GSDs sound aggressive at play and they have to know the difference. If its play, teach him manners. If not, teach him more manners. The rescue suggestion is a good one, and since you aren't home I sympathize because it has to be hard for you, but keep working at it if you all want to keep him.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Tres Beau
> He has been protective since the first week I had him and has barked and growled.


Did anyone else notice this part of the first post. If a puppy that young is barking and growling, how much is "aggression"/protectiveness and how much is FEAR?


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## LuckyD (Apr 21, 2008)

Well, I know nothing and only have the experience of dealing with our 6 month old GSD. I've had dogs in the past, but I've never had a dog as intelligent or as mouthy as our current puppy.

So, I can't speak with authority on anything except as an uber parent of 5 who has recently mixed a GSD puppy with our family of children ranging in age from 11 to baby.

I can say as a parent of 5 young children, that it doesn't take much to hurt a child when dealing with a playful bouncy puppy. What is a "nip" to an adult can be an extremely scary "bite" and cause real injury to an 8 year old little girl. Keep in mind, kids are short and your niece probably doesn't weigh that much more than your pup. If your pup was just jumping up on her, he'd end up at around neck height in a child that age. It probably wouldn't take much force or effort on your puppy's part to inflict injury. 

Our puppy has nipped holes in all of my 9 year old son's clothes and she nipped his ear causing a terrible bruise when she was 3 mos old and he was playing ball with her. She even bolted towards me out of excitement to see me one day when I came outside and my son had her on the leash resulting in an emergency dental visit for my son. She's also growled on occasion but we've discovered it's her way of suggesting we get up and play.

I am confident that in our puppy's case, she is just playful and has needed a reality check in what's acceptable behavior. At 6 mos, she still can get pretty wild but she is so much better it's amazing. She goes out of her way not to knock over my 2 year old and 4 year old when she's running in her crazy circles in our yard. She no longer chases my kids when they run. She just sits and watches them. 

She still tends to get extra excited with my 9 year old, but I think it's because she looks at him as her equal playmate since he plays ball with her all the time. She still has a lot of growing up to do, but at three months I couldn't even have had my littler kids in the yard with her.

Our puppy has never had issues with us taking things away from her unless we are playing fetch with toys or balls and she doesn't want to give up what she's returning. In this case, we trade or distract her. She still needs to learn "drop it" although she's got "leave it" pretty well down. If my son is playing with her, she's even less likely to give up her catch and it can lead to her jumping on him and getting rough.

So...you've been given a lot of good advice already, and I have no idea if your puppy has real issues, but I do know that kids and GSD puppies (at least *my* kids and *our* puppy) don't necessarily mix very well when the puppies are that young. As our puppy has aged (and she's still only 6 mos) I've found her change of behavior and understanding of our family dynamic vastly improved. In fact, if it hadn't improved I would be considering returning her!

Anyway, please listen to the voice of real experience when it comes to how "hard" your pup is. I don't know anything about that and in no way disagree with what anyone else has told you about typical puppy behavior. I am just a novice and I'm not trying to say what your pup did was OK. However, I know kids and some GSD pups (mine anyway) aren't a good combo when a pup is that young.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

This sounds like a resource guarding issue - not aggression - to me and needs to be addressed ASAP. Dominant and submissive dogs, shy and bold can have a resource guarding problem. There are some great resources on the net on resource guarding. It can show up in pups at a very young age. Your family should be careful with his food too.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

Well that posts are about like my feelings. One minute I just want to take him back and start over, and the next minute I think no, maybe it isn't as bad as as it seems. Today a family friend came over and Bo just went nuts barking and growling, and wouldn't shut up. I am like Natalie Imbruglia now, just torn.

I can retire in about 20 years maybe I'll try again then. Anyone know of some good reputable fish breeders? I think I'll just get a goldfish. Knowing my luck it would turn out to be a **** piranha.
I have been waiting so long for this dog,... this sucks,...

NO need to reply to this post. This is me talking to this board because I don't know any real people who can relate.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LuckyDI can say as a parent of 5 young children, that it doesn't take much to hurt a child when dealing with a playful bouncy puppy. What is a "nip" to an adult can be an extremely scary "bite" and cause real injury to an 8 year old little girl. Keep in mind, kids are short and your niece probably doesn't weigh that much more than your pup. If your pup was just jumping up on her, he'd end up at around neck height in a child that age. It probably wouldn't take much force or effort on your puppy's part to inflict injury.


That's exactly what I was wondering about. Not only were none of us there to actually observe what happened, the OP wasn't either, the situation was relayed to him second-hand. So it's really hard to say if this is normal rowdy puppy behavior run amok and simply requiring more obedience training and bite inhibition work, or a serious behavioral issue. Is there intent, or was it an unfortunate accident?

And I totally agree with BlackGSD that a very young puppy barking and growling is doing so out of fear and not being protective.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tres BeauWell that posts are about like my feelings. One minute I just want to take him back and start over, and the next minute I think no, maybe it isn't as bad as as it seems. Today a family friend came over and Bo just went nuts barking and growling, and wouldn't shut up.
> 
> NO need to reply to this post. This is me talking to this board because I don't know any real people who can relate.


Well, we really are here for you as you can see by the volume of responses. What you describe above is definitely fear. 

How much are you home? Is the rest of your family willing to get on board with a training and confidence building program?


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

A dog that is resource guarding bites whatever is closest. If the niece was leaning over him to pick up something, then the throat head could have been the closest. It does not mean that the pup went after the throat with premeditation - he is too young for that. Some shelters or the SPCA can evaluate for resource guarding, mainly food aggression. I rescued a 4mo Great Pyrenees who would growl and snap at me (would probably have bitten me if I had not been careful) over food and stuff, he was sweet and friendly otherwise. It can be fixed but it requires commitment from the owners and careful management around children.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have had very young puppies barking and growling while playing. One little guy every time I picked him up, he bit my nose. My nose was getting sore. I was not sorry to see him go to a new home. 

I am wondering what kind of GSD this is, is it a pup out of high drive parents? Was it the dominant pup in the litter. Maybe it was resource guarding, maybe it was play. Maybe the pup jumped up and closed in on the throat because it was there. Normally three month old puppies DO bite, they DO jump up. They will often play roughly. We are talking about a very young puppy here. 

I am also a little concerned with the attitude that "we are beyond watch me and sit and down." While I can teach a pup that young to sit and down and watch, I do not think a pup that young really masters these commands, not unless we are doing some very compulsive training. 

A person has a pup for three or four weeks and suddenly it does what puppies do and bites. How come this is the breeder's fault? Is it not possible that the strong alpha in the family, not having a lot of experience with puppies, by his own admission, and was heavy into training the pup and with it 24/7, and then stepped out of the picture for whatever reason. Isn't it possible that this pup isn't happy go lucky, love everyone because of the three/four weeks with the new owners? Maybe it is not perfect around children because it has not been socialized around children without the strong alpha man there. Maybe the new owners need Puppies 101. 

I cannot give up on a 12 week old puppy. But a 12 week old puppy CAN be the super-dominant pup of the litter, it CAN be the most independent of the litter, It COULD have been removed from the litter too young to learn how to play without hurting the other dogs or people. NILIF will not hurt this puppy if this is the case. 

On the other hand, if the puppy was on the soft side or is currently going through a fear stage because Daddy is gone and he is suddenly barking and growling at everyone, maybe it is just that, a fear stage. Work through it.

Sorry the kid got bitten. But I cannot blame the baby dog. 

I have a little bit of trouble with the idea of resource guarding. I think it is play where the pup found something cool and another pup comes to take it away. The other pup gets it and the first pup tries to get it back. It sounds like play to me. The child did not think it was play, but the puppy did not know that. What does a kid do when it gets something away from something that might hurt it? They generally draw the item up to their chest or heart area. The puppy will go right after it. The kid got bit, but it sounds like play. 

The barking and growling was all probably what it was like in the litter. Where the puppies play hard, play fight, bark, growl, and pass out on top of eachother. 

The barking at the stranger sounds like the puppy needs more socialization and needs to work through a bit of a fear stage. I would not punish a bark or a growl, because you may just get rid of the bark or growl and not the fear or aggression that is behind it -- THEN you have a time bomb. 

I really doubt that this pup is already a time bomb. Could it become one? Certainly, so can 90% of the GSDs out there at three months old. Poor management can ruin any dog.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

I have to say I am extremely impressed by the responsiveness of this board. It is truly comforting to know there are people like you all out there.

I work one month on and one month off. I think I will just wait until I get home and see if I can do some evaluations of my own before deciding anything. 

Someone mentioned seeking the advice of an experienced behavioral specialist or something like ?? I doubt there is one anywhere near me but I will try to find out as soon as possible. 

I am wondering if me leaving has left the dog with some insecurity issues?? I was his world for the first three weeks of his life with us.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

okay selzer you beat me to it 
I think you might be right on the money with everything you are saying.

What I meant about being past the sit and down was not that we have mastered those as like you say he is young but I don't need to be told .
Okay this is a clicker. This is how to teach sit this is how to teach down blah blah

I'm not an expert, I just haven't found the puppy training class at petsmart to be very informative or to contain any information I couldn't get from here or several other places. That's all


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

It sounds like the entire family needs to be more involved in the life of the puppy continuously so that his life is not on-off on a monthly switch. Dogs need stability and consistent training. 
I agree with selzer that this is a baby and they can be very rough. Beau and Riley did quite some damage on me when they were puppies. I would not declare the puppy dangerous or a time bomb without having someone with GSD puppy experience (not Poodle experience) evaluate him.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

pups can be mouthy until they know what is ok. i would not let any child around a rowdy pup (most are) without very very close adult supervision. i also have told both of my kids (and adult visitors) that they should not bend over the pup- it's too easy for the pup to jump and nip.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Tres BeauI work one month on and one month off. I think I will just wait until I get home and see if I can do some evaluations of my own before deciding anything.
> 
> Someone mentioned seeking the advice of an experienced behavioral specialist or something like ?? I doubt there is one anywhere near me but I will try to find out as soon as possible.


Include Schutzhund clubs in your search for an experienced trainer to evaluate him. Either everything that has happened has been taken way out of context (which is entirely possible) or there is something very wrong with this puppy's temperament. Resource guarding at 12 weeks? I know there are puppies out there from working lines with very dominant personalities that bring natural aggression to the table at a young age but that would be extremely evident to the breeder and would have been expressed daily during the interaction with the rest of the litter (which I guess could be the case since we know nothing about the breeder other than they sell dogs).


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I know about the breeder, visited them. Anyone can PM me for details (as in, not good).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

jesusica-I have no idea of geography (other than Texas is big) but would they be anywhere near Flash's breeder for training/evaluation? I have looked on his website and think he sounds like he would be a great person to have the opportunity to work with (as in, if I lived there he would have to slap me with a restraining order to keep me away from them and their dogs). Or would he know someone in that area where this puppy is that trains with positives in a similar style?


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I know where Lufkin is because of a Mr. Reggie McNeal (OP might appreciate that







). You're looking at a 7 hour drive, minimum, from Lufkin to Tulsa. The closest large area is Houston and that is a two hour drive. College Station is about the same and I do know someone in CS formerly from Germany who did schh with her boxers, now does other competition with Schnauzers. She was the trainer with Pancho's puppy class. I don't have her contact info anymore (we live in DFW now) but I can easily get it through a friend if the OP would like that.

Dean and Karla may know of someone in the area, wouldn't hurt to ask. For OP, the website is deancalderon.com

And yes, I know what you mean about restraining orders.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I thought there was an AKC club in Lufkin. I had not been through there in a LONG time and I thought I remembered going to an obedience trial there, but I think it muat have been Tyler which is closer to DFW. 

Let me put it this way.... When I lived in McAlester, OK I used to drive 2 hours one way to Tulsa to train my first GSD as that was all there was back then. If I were the OP and in serious need of professional help I would be spending the gas money on my month on shore. 

I hope Dean and Karla know someone down there for him. 

This does sound like a resource guarding issue but don't know for sure until it is evaluated. I would not give up on Bo yet. Don't beat yourself up Tres Beau.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

Kathy,
Money and time is no object when I am home. I told myself early on I would do whatever it takes. 
It appears I may have messed up with my choice of breeder and not visiting beforehand. Let me apologize to the entire upstanding responsible dog owners community for that now. 

I think Bo is going to be fine (I'm hoping) and as soon as I can I'm looking into schutzhund or some other activity. I hope I can find a club somewhere. I'm not giving up. 

Lufkin Football hasn't been the same since Reggie left! I hope they keep him straight up there in Cananda.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I agree with Selzer completely.

The one concern I have is finding a schH club, a trainer or a behavior specialist, because for the most part my experience has been no better then 50-50. 

I am also very curious about your breeder. The good ones will help you select the right dog, for example, I wanted a companion dog, not the most aggressive animal, who might do well in schH. 

Anyway, don't give up on a three month old pup.


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## karlabythec (Jan 22, 2005)

It sounds to me like you leaving left the puppy without it's pack leader. Puppies NEED to know they have a pack leader, or they may attempt to take on that position. 
Is your wife willing to get more involved in the training of this pup? 
If you visit http://www.leerburg.com - he has a wealth of information. He has a DVD series of puppy training. I just purchased the package that cost about $115 (much cheaper then hiring a trainer). 
He doesn't recommend having a pup given free run of the house. He also believes your pup should be either teethered to you or in it's kennel/crate if it isn't. Unless of course it is play time outside...
He has raised some pretty hard and dominant puppies and KNOWS his stuff. I suggest you check the site out, read some of the free training e-books...and go from there. 
In the mean time, your wife should have the puppy crated, or teethered to her with a leash at all times until you get back and can really decide what to do about training. The kids should be taught not to take anything from the puppy at this time and the puppy should have it's own toys/bully sticks that he has access to when he is teethered to your wife. 
Again, I think this is a lack of pack structure in his life since you left...he probably saw you as the pack leader. 
Maybe your wife can get the DVD's and watch them before you return??? 
I would hate to see you give up on the puppy...it sounds like he has some really high drive and like he may have even been the alpha pup. He just needs to know his place.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

Bo is doing fine. He went to a family bbq the other day at my sisters. Wife says he was nervous and scared at first. Took him a while to warm up to my brother in law, but heck it took me while too. He's a big tall guy so might have made a difference.
He showed no aggressive behavior and played and had a good time. Finally made friends with brother in law. He ate and drank and went into the bushes and relieved himself and went to sleep under a tree,.. and Bo went and layed down beside him,..lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The brother in law ate and drank and went in the bushes to relieve himself? Then went to sleep under a tree? At a family bbq? Hmmm. I guess I can understand what the pup sees in him.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

that was an attempt at humor I guess I missed,.lol


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Whew. What a thread! I'm glad that all seems good with Bo now.

In my view the issue here is - puppies play rough and bite. The OP didn't recognize that but now does. 

Anything beyond that is speculation on our part because we haven't met the pup or seen it in action. And, as any member of a few months standing will probably recognize, even if we had most board members would not share the same exact evaluation...


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Normal, well socialized pups do not growl and bark in a threatening manner at this age. MAJOR red flag, Bo is a ticking time bomb.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Websites can be misleading, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the breeder of Bo may not be a reputable, quality breeder. I could be wrong, but I see nothing pointing to quality (OFA certs, other health screenings, pedigrees, breeding program goals, titles, shows, etc. The price is also very low which is attractive, but it's a miracle to find a truly quality GSD pup for under $800 (I often see a starting price of $1000).

I agree with all the NILIF recommendations, seeking a good trainer, socializing the pup like crazy, and continue with the training. Clicker training is a great thing but your whole family should be involved, including young kids. With the kids though, keep the pup on a short leash and basically take every single precaution to prevent a bite. Younger kids can toss treats after you give an obeyed command, older kids can do the whole process but an adult should still be there to hold the pup. You're not in a conducive area but if you go to Petsmart, take the pup to puppy kindergarten classes there. I wouldn't go to Petsmart for true obedience training, that you should find a real class for. This is not so much for obedience but for socialization. Have your wife take the pup.

It's hard to say from the posts but looking at the overall picture, including the breeder, I'd have to agree with those seeing red flags. Your family needs to be more involved with the raising of this pup, lest your pup grow up thinking you're the pack leader, he's the second-in-command, and everyone else is below him. This is why it's so important for everyone in a household to work with a dog.

In the future, should you decide on another GSD puppy, come back here and we can give you excellent breeder recommendations.


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## margaret13 (Jan 21, 2008)

* <span style="color: #FF0000">He ate and drank and went into the bushes and relieved himself and went to sleep under a tree,.. and Bo went and layed down beside him,..lol </span>*

I got it. I thought it was funny.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Me too!!!!!


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

Update.
My wife went to bed tonight, and shortly after my son came in to say something and Bo started barking at him, and after my son talked to him he stopped barking and started growling. He finally stopped growling and started wagging his tail, but IDK
Bo was in his crate in our bedroom.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What did you do when Bo did this?


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

I'm not home, but if I were I would apply a correction. Probably a firm collar grip and look him him in the eye and a stern no.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sorry, I thought you were home. 

I would not advise a correction. Without the growl as a fair warning a dog can go straight to a bite. Tres Beau needs a lot of work--he's really young to be showing insecurity through fear aggression. He reminds me of my dog Kai. He would do the same thing even with people he knew but he was a little older. I used counter conditioning and positive reinforcement. Every person he saw and responded to without a growl, he got a treat. I taught him name recognition and used a high, happy voice to cue him that I thought the person was ok.


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## tres beau (May 7, 2008)

This is strange to me. I am almost afraid to post or ask questions for fear of being blasted by the doggy elite, but my son handles the dog, and trains him. For Bo to act that way towards a familiar person is,...just strange. 
I should have mentioned Bo still does the submissive excited pee thing sometimes, but today he just decided to poop on the carpet. He has been house trained for 3 weeks, and then this?
No bell ringing, no pawing at the door, just a deliberate attempt at a clandestine poop mission which my wife caught him in the middle of and put him out.
Thanks for your advice. I see your point


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

It is not at all uncommon for pups to have relapses in potty training. I know with Quincy I was about to cry when he had an accident in the house after two mnths of prefect behavior. Quin is 8 mnths and only that one relapse.

Is your wife taking your dog to puppy school? He sounds very undersocialized.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Check your PMs. I have provided you with contact info for someone who is willing to help.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Tres Beau, no one is attacking you. We are trying to help, the problem with most of us is that we have either had a lot of GSD or have several GSD's or had a problem type GSD.

The crate can cause a problem that you may not see if the pup isn't in a crate at the time of the bedroom incident. The pup whenhe is in the crate feels cornered, no place to escape, so he will put on the big bad brave act, when he might just feel uncomfortable because he can't escape.

Dogs have two defenses in their arsinal, Fight or Flight. When a pup or a dog feels threatened wether there is real cause for it they only have two choices to Fight or Flight. Since the pup was crated the Flight option was taken away, so it put up it's I am tough and going to fight attitude.

Now the other problem seems that the pup is over reacting to things like your son walking in the room. I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but what I am reading is a confused pup, right now there isn't a clear Alpha leader in the house. 

Since you are gone so much of the time, which can't be helped, hopefully the person that jesusica found can help your wife and son with some advice and training when you are gone. Some times a good third person who can see what is going on when you are gone would be a good thing. 

LOL, think of this from your wife's perspective, YOU get a pup, YOU did the training, now YOU are gone and this pup is being a PIA. In her mind she is between the rock and the hard place, because the pup is fine when you are there, but when you are gone, he becomes a monster. It is difficult for you to try to help with the situation on the phone, she becomes more frustrated and starts to have bad feelings towards the pup. The pup doesn't get the leadership that he needs and it cbecomes a visious circle with all parties very unhappy. 

Hang in there, hopefully the person that jesusica found can see what is going on when you are gone and give your family some help.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

we brought our boy home at 9 weeks old and from day one we started playing in his food and water bowls. we also would pet him all over while drinking or eating. i don't know if we did it all of the time but we did it alot. he's 11 months old now and i still do it on occasion. also when he had a bone or toy i would take it from him and pet him and praise him. we also taught him not to snatch when hand feeding.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

from day one when our boy came home (9weeks old) we started playing in his food and water. we did this alot. we still do it on occasion. when he had a bone or toy in his mouth we would take it away and pet and praise him. last month a client was here and Loki was eating dinner. out of nowhere she bent down and started petting his head. there was no reaction from Loki at all. i thought that was kind of dumb on her part to pet him while he was eating but i was also glad we did that training because now he is 11 months old and that could have been a bad seen. i was told by some pros that one person should do the training in the begining. well i've never done that. i make sure that we discuss our training methods so that we're doing the same thing and saying the thing and everything has worked out fine. he listens to both of us equally.


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