# Old Working Dog Breeder



## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

I was talking to a farmer that is giving my uncle a german shepherd. My uncle has a 1500 acre cow farm. He said he has owned German Shepherds for 50 years and uses them on his angus cow farm. He only breeds when he needs new dogs. He had some interesting points:

- The AKC has ruined the breed. He said the GSD is a working dog and not a show dog.

- Breeders have made the dog too needy. These dogs are made to work and are not lap dogs that should sleep in the bed with you. You want a dog to cuddle get a lapdog. His dogs sleep outside and keep the predators away from his cows and chickens, etc and help corral bulls.

- Breeders have taken schutzhund too far and have created hyped up dogs that are bred to perform a routine and not think.

He also said pedigrees/papers are worthless, you breed dogs that have the temperment/traits to do the task you need them to do. When I asked about hip certifications he laughed. He said by the time he breeds the dog he will know if it has problems through work and normal vet checks.

He said all pups are spoken for and only go to farms where they will work. Kind of a grumpy old guy, but seems to have a purpose to his program at least.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Are you asking for a critique of the breeder or just "talking" out loud? 

Not the type of breeder I would ever deal with, but I've never been good with the "my way or the highway" type of people  The proof is in the pudding so to speak, if his customers are happy then good for them, but not someone I would ever consider getting a dog from for multiple reasons. Personally, I value pedigree, titles, and health certifications too much to throw it away just because the breeder says it's worthless. Your values should match the breeders as much as possible to ensure a good bond. After all, you're buying what should be a 10+ year commitment


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Well he's right that the breed has gone thru alot of changes, and depending on the breeder many of the changes aren't those I agree with. 

It's why we have to do all our work to find a GSD breeder who IS breeding for what we want and are looking for in the breed.

I'd ask to talk to a bunch of past puppy owners and also see them. IF they are all that you want then that's what you are looking for.

Good luck!


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This person is right in many ways - if he has been breeding his own lines for X number of generations, then he knows about health issues that may or may not be there. Most breeders will use an outside stud, so pedigree is important for knowledge about the health of the dogs in the line they are breeding to. 

Many, many, many breeders that work, title their own dogs, and try to keep a balance of temperament, so that the dogs of their breedings are versatile and adaptable that can work on farms, do Schutzhund, agility, be service dogs, family pets, calm in the house, active on the job all day, etc - would echo this man's sentiments. True you breed the dog in front of you, not the pedigree, but the pedigree brings the unknown health and temperament of the dogs in the family tree out into the light.

I would consider a dog from a person like this, since the dogs prove themselves every day in their work. Refreshing to see a breeder that walks the walk, and not just talks the talk, bragging about 'Champion Lines' three generations back, but wouldn't recognize working temperament if they received it gift-wrapped. 

I bet this guy has some very interesting insights into GSDs and breeding for a balance.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

My working dog is a lapdog, too. Versatility.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

BrianB said:


> I was talking to a farmer that is giving my uncle a german shepherd. My uncle has a 1500 acre cow farm. He said he has owned German Shepherds for 50 years and uses them on his angus cow farm. He only breeds when he needs new dogs. He had some interesting points:
> 
> - The AKC has ruined the breed. He said the GSD is a working dog and not a show dog.
> 
> ...


opcorn:


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Wild Wolf said:


> My working dog is a lapdog, too. Versatility.



LOL - my "didn't back down at the police-dog eval (from the K9 trainer to his apprentice learning decoy work: I want you to work Gryffon - this is what you will be working with on a daily basis when you start working police dogs)" dog is also the most social dog, best bed-warmer and Cat-nurse around!


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This man deserves some respect for his vision. He IS producing dogs from dogs that fit the working role he requires wih sounds like a very demanding role that only stable GSD's can fulfil. I am guessing very much like it was done many moons ago when the only role was a working role. If I was a farmer looking for exactly that of which this man has, I would at least look at what he has.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would generally agree except that I don't think breeders have made GSDs needy, I think people do that. My dogs live indoors because *I* like them there, not because they *need* to. They are dogs, they could very well live outside and be just fine (and many people I know do have working or hunting dogs that have only ever lived outside). Every breeder I've got a dog from has had dogs that live outside, so they did not create needy dogs, I just prefer mine indoors is all.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah, everyone has their own opinions.

If you’re going to blame the AKC for ruining the breed, I can’t agree with you. Society and progress turned the breed into something different. We don’t all raise our own cattle and don’t need our dogs to herd them, so the breed had to evolve into something different.

It’s not the breeders who have made the dogs needy. It’s the owners. The dogs are needy because WE are needy. We own dogs for their affection and their love. If my dog is in my house, I want him to be near me. Truth is…my dog hates to cuddle and is generally somewhere where he can see the majority of our house, “guarding” it. He lays in the middle of the house so that he can quickly get to anywhere in the house, or he’s lying on our bay window sill so that he can clearly see everything that goes on inside and outside. The neediness is just part of what we do with our dogs. For sport people…the main thing they teach their pups is the relationship with the handler, because the dog will then do whatever the handler asks of it. It’s not that the dog NEEDS that relationship, it’s the handler that WANTS it. Most of our dogs, if raised in the environment the farmer raises his dogs in would be just like his dogs. Guaranteed if you brought his dogs into a more urban/sport environment, they’d be just as “needy.”

The part about breeders making the dogs not able to think…I’d like to see a breeder produce a puppy that knows the Schutzhund 1 through 3 routine just by coming out of the womb. Can’t see how that has anything to do with breeders, it’s all about the training.

The majority of breeders I know look at pedigrees as a guide, not a “have to breed this to that” rule. They see what’s in there, but they evaluate the actual dog and then decide if it should be bred or not. Those dogs are bred for a different purpose than what this gentleman is breeding for. Plus…if he doesn’t look at pedigrees, how can he guarantee he’s not crossing dogs that are very closely related? The health thing? There are plenty of dogs that don’t show any signs of diseases and have them. If a dog grows up with HD, it will eventually get used to the pain and learn to ignore it. Doesn’t mean the dog doesn’t have HD, just means no one could ever tell. And its only with extreme cases that a vet can tell a dog has an issue without doing an x-ray or running a test.


----------



## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

I am not saying I agree with him or disagree, just thought it was interesting and wanted to see what you all thought.

I am not getting a dog from him because I am not in market and he probably wouldnt consider me because I live in suburbs....

I asked my uncle why he was getting a dog from him and he said "I have seen his dogs work, that is what I need".


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How is the longevity of this breeders progeny? Are they healthy? Does he do any health tests before breeding, or is a looky see good enough for him? 
I got Onyx from a 'breeder' that bred for farm/herding as the major goal. She bred without papers/pedigree information and didn't health test. Though she didn't have any lines developed, just bred her bitch with strong herding instincts to whatever stud was convenient.

People that want a farm dog aren't usually that particular and the dogs temperament probably has to be fairly decent or it will not live long. Onyx's dam didn't live long. Neither did the breeders other bitch. I'm sure she's replaced them though.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It's the way it used to be . The shepherds bred from stock that they knew very very well. Without a dog to rely on they had hardship themselves. The dogs were working partners contributing to the success or failure of the shepherd . Dogs were bred for work . They kept an eye on their fellow herders and bred to replace , or prepare for the young dog to take over . Not commercial. That came in after -- even von Stephanitz says in his book that the prick-eared dogs were bred for the sophisticates -- not the working shepherds.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

BrianB said:


> I was talking to a farmer that is giving my uncle a german shepherd. My uncle has a 1500 acre cow farm. He said he has owned German Shepherds for 50 years and uses them on his angus cow farm. He only breeds when he needs new dogs. He had some interesting points:
> 
> - The AKC has ruined the breed. He said the GSD is a working dog and not a show dog.
> 
> ...


while his thinking might be a little on the extreme end, i agree with everything he says. i think his point towards the schutzhund dogs is that a lot of them are bred with super high prey drive and not enough defense/civil aggression aka not a balanced dog. and schutzhund IS a routine. the dog practices it over and over and over and over. i'm sure some dogs could do a sch3 routine without a handler present. the dog to a point really isnt thinking. im sure his dogs have awesome temperment and working drive. if i was a farmer or needed a dog to do this type of job i'd absolutely look at his dogs. actions speak louder than pedigree/a piece of paper.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My cousin grew up in New Zealand and when he was young worked on a sheep farm-I asked him what kind of dogs they used and he said mutts...someday would love it if he could teach Rorie and I to herd


----------



## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Border Collies sort of represent this view of things. They were never bred for much of anything aside from intelligence, stamina, and trainability. Toss in athleticism too I guess. The herders wanted a dog that made their work easier or even possible and paired up the dogs that fit the bill with no nod to looks, only proven ability in the field. BCs aren't much to look at IMO, UNTIL they get to work and then they are stunning.

holland said it too, the best BCs are in fact mutts. Mid size frame, wicked smart and incredible stamina.


----------



## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Sounds like the kind of breeder I would be interested in. The puppy that I have now is a ******, they have basically been bred in the outback of Australia since the 1800's with no standard or breed club....I specifically went with the breed because they haven't been messed with by modern day breeding principles. Their average life expectancy is 17 and from everyone I have talked to, their temperaments are outstanding. My pup is only 4 months old but so far is the smartest, most focused and most biddable puppy I have owned. Maybe there is something to breeding good working dogs to good working dogs?


----------



## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Sounds like the guy I bought my border collie Jack from. Pretty sure he didn't sell to many BCs to pet people. He had a huge farm (sheep and cattle) way off any paved road in England. He bred the litter to replace the mother when she retired. I will tell you that Jack was an amazing worker, SAR, agility, OB. He would do whatever you asked him and he was very serious about his work and a tough dog. Had I been into bite sports at the time I bet he would of done well there too. 

I think there is a great deal of truth to what the guy said..... But my dogs are still sleeping in my house. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I know a man near my old place that had german shepherds around the farm to protect it and protect the animals on the farm and they did an amazing job. I don't know where he got his from either. I think its just one of the many tasks a good dog can do. But I agree with what he said JMHO

My girl would be great on that type of situaiton I think but she can adapt to city life with a yard also. I think a well bred shepherd are jack of all trades and can do all sorts of things not extreme in one set of skills. A good dog can do that farm role but then also be able to perform another role if they had to. JMHO


----------

