# Spin-off: What makes these dogs legends?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

From here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/181021-videos-schutzhund-legends.html

I watched:


Pike von der Schafbachmuhle
Yoschy von der Döllenwiese
Troll v.d. Bosen Nachbarschaft
 Lord v. Gleisdreieck
Andy Maly Vah
What makes those dogs so legendary? I have to ask- to learn- because Pike, Yoschy, Troll, and Lord looked anything but legendary to me in those videos. I just didn't see it. Maybe Schutzhund has become more "exact" since? Those dogs, in my very novice opinion didn't look like they were very tight at all in obedience. Sure their protection work would scare the hardest criminal straight, no doubt- but even then- sometimes they wouldn't out on command. Why are these dogs considered so great? What is it about them?

Andy, on the other hand, man oh man! Maybe the others were recorded on a "bad" day and that video of Andy was recorded on a "good" day, but wow. I can understand why some would call Andy legendary. The others- not so much.

Can someone help me understand what's so great about the others? I really want to learn about these guys...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The main reason is that people saw these dogs in training, saw through training issues, bred to the dogs, great dogs were produced and thus legends were made. It isn't the performances that made them great. It was their production records. 

SchH has also changed dramatically since many of these dogs were trialing.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

lhczth said:


> The main reason is that people saw these dogs in training, saw through training issues, bred to the dogs, great dogs were produced and thus legends were made. It isn't the performances that made them great. It was their production records.
> 
> SchH has also changed dramatically since many of these dogs were trialing.


That is an understatement in regards to the training, what was judged at the events. Very different from today and even today is different from 10 years ago.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Personally, I also find that it is very difficult to get a sense of a dog's power and presence through a video - especially these older video's that are of lower quality. 

For example, hard to actually see how fast some of these dogs can runwhen running the blinds from the vantage point of where some videos were shot, just a trick of perspective and viewpoint. 

Some dogs, like some people, have great on-camera presence, others not so much and must be seen in person to appreciate (not that I have seen any of the dogs in the posted videos in person), but being on the ground working with the dogs, you get a whole different feel for the performance than watching a dog on video. Even club-level dogs - a strong performance will give you chills!


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

lhczth said:


> The main reason is that people saw these dogs in training, saw through training issues, bred to the dogs, great dogs were produced and thus legends were made. It isn't the performances that made them great. It was their production records.
> 
> SchH has also changed dramatically since many of these dogs were trialing.



Nicely put.

In my opinion:

Some people actually like dogs that are not quite as "sporty". Personally, I like a dog that actually likes biting the helper, and is a bit more serious.

Just like the best KNPV dogs...the top scoring dogs are not always the "best" dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wildo said:


> From here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/181021-videos-schutzhund-legends.html
> 
> I watched:
> 
> ...


I think what made Andy stand out to you is the way his video was done, showing the 'total dog'~ he's not *just* a SchH dog. The muzzle fighting sequence was just amazing to me.
He wasn't really doing a trial routine in the video, but training sessions. There is one of him that Melanie put up last year/ man tracking just for fun as he's been retired for quite awhile. His tracking skill was so evident and he clearly is a dog that enjoys his work.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Willy a lot of great dogs are great because they produce strong dogs and really leave their "stamp" in their lines. Many great breeding dogs/producers were never the best at trialing. I think there are breeding dogs and then there are the end-user sort of dogs and it's really difficult for a dog to fit both.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

You know Jane, that very well may have been it. The Andy video really showed "the whole dog" while the others didn't. Perhaps that's why I was drawn more to it.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Muzzle fighting is so cool. I love to see the dog in action when the ability to bite is taken away and he still takes the helper down!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Legendary is just a word used to describe a dog. Usually it is affixed to a dog whose performance or production are exceptional. Most times one side or the other is what relegates a dog to this status.....such as a multiple national champion such as Pirol, or Andy Maly Vah were great performers albeit in different forums(performance); and sometimes it is soley because of progeny/production..ie Fero or Mink(progeny). The same applies in the conformation world....Show winners like Mystique or Fanto v Hirschel and show producers like Lance or Canto.
Then there are the legendary dogs that are successful in performance AND production and these dogs fall into my legendary catergory. Dogs like Bernd v Lierberg, Marko vom Cellerland, Held v Ritterberg, and Mutz vd Pelztierferm are dogs that have have major success in the conformation, and the production of working and conformation in their progeny. 
Today most legendary dogs are known within the world they exist....whether it is show, work or sport.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Personally, I also find that it is very difficult to get a sense of a dog's power and presence through a video - especially these older video's that are of lower quality.
> 
> For example, hard to actually see how fast some of these dogs can runwhen running the blinds from the vantage point of where some videos were shot, just a trick of perspective and viewpoint.
> 
> Some dogs, like some people, have great on-camera presence, others not so much and must be seen in person to appreciate (not that I have seen any of the dogs in the posted videos in person), but being on the ground working with the dogs, you get a whole different feel for the performance than watching a dog on video. Even club-level dogs - a strong performance will give you chills!


Plus with my Dad and Gildo, they put the WORST video up there. It was the Nationals in Darmstadt and they had a really bad day and now it's online as an example of Gildo. Not very flattering. 

It's true, it is different from watching a video and actually see them for yourself. Feel the power, the strength and intensity in the bark and see their muscles gaming, the intensity in their look, the shivering before they go after the helper and the restrained not to leap out but sooo wanting to. 

The game between the handler and the dog, the harmony (IF it's there) of how they work together. 

In todays world what I noticed is that a lot of dogs come across as marionettes. They are conditioned from early days on. There is one very very very nice dog a lot of people are interested in. I myself like him. He's very powerful but when I see him in the protection phase it's monotone. You can tell how powerful he is but he is conditioned, it's monotone and there is almost no "fire and flame/on the edge" feeling coming across. 

And that's what personally, I'm missing in a lot of dogs these days because they are so conditioned to a point where they become puppets.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Just wanted to say that everyone has raised some really great points! Thanks for all the responses...


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Tim Connell said:


> Nicely put.
> 
> In my opinion:
> 
> ...


Also well said..


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Plus with my Dad and Gildo, they put the WORST video up there. It was the Nationals in Darmstadt and they had a really bad day and now it's online as an example of Gildo. Not very flattering.


Gildo v Korbelbach?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BritneyP said:


> Gildo v Korbelbach?


Yes.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Yes.


How cool!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thought I'd add this youtube link to this thread....
Famous GSDs - YouTube


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