# Genetic Obedience



## elisabeth_00117

Going off of another thread in this forum, I thought I would ask (because I am also interested in learning):

What dogs (pedigrees/combinations/etc.) bring forth genetic obedience?


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## zyppi

I've never heard of "genetic obedience."


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## KZoppa

thats a good question! I've been wondering that myself just didnt have the words coming up to put out there. Definitely going to keep up on this thread.


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## BlackthornGSD

This question might confuse people without a definition of "genetic obedience." I think it might more commonly be described as "biddability." 

I think of it as the difference between my GSDs and my Jack Russell Terriers... My terrier truly doesn't _get_ the concept of obeying just because I asked for something. What's more, there is virtually no obedience in drive without extensive training to reinforce and create it. 

So, I think it comes down to those elements that make a dog a "herding" dog (or a sporting dog, for some breeds). In order for a dog to be a herding dog, it has to have enough drive and interest to work livestock, but enough sense of teamwork to work with the shepherd/handler, enough self-control to delay (perpetually) the kill portion of the prey/herding behavior. And then it has to have the smarts to understand the fairly complex behaviors being requested by the leader of the hunt/shepherd.

So, what I think of as biddability or genetic obedience is part pack-drive, part human awareness and desire to have an engaged relationship with a human, part intelligence, part ability to "cap" or harness drive and think in drive, part sensitivity to the handler combined with the desire to be "right" or to please. So, I believe, it is a complex interaction of drives, temperament, socialization/experience, personality, intelligence, and environmental awareness. 

Perhaps because it is not just a simple thing (not just a single drive like "prey drive") and because there is a good element of learning/experience in its manifestation (a dog can have all the traits for genetic obedience, but if he isn't raised in a situation to form a relationship with a handler, it will never manifest), I don't think it's as simple to look for bloodlines or even dogs that regularly pass "genetic obedience" down.

In a way, it's easier to name individual dogs that have this trait than those that will pass it on to their progeny. One thing to bear in mind is that a dog who is *too* biddable actually is handicapped in schutzhund or all protection training. (And schutzhund is relevant because success in that sport vastly dominates what working-line GSDs have been commonly bred and are most commonly found.) 

So, the dogs that had good biddability had to also have great strengths elsewhere--high drives, calm nerves, good physical hardness, etc.--so it doesn't always stand out as their most outstanding feature when one is looking at the dog in a pedigree or in person.

But, here are a few names of dogs that I think contribute toward biddability in their progeny:

Ilya Schwarzenzwinger (behind a lot of Wolfendobel and Fasanerie and some Maineiche dogs, as well as some Schiffshlache)
Haus Knufken (*old* herding lines)
old Kirschental (also old herding lines)

It seems from descriptions of Aly Vordsteinerwald progeny that he might put some of this in there--probably largely from Askia v Froschgraben and his motherline?

I might guess that you get this somewhat from Harro progeny (see Askia) or from Afra Stoppenburger Land (mother of Fado Karthago and other great dogs).

A common element behind a lot of the dogs I can think of is Mutz vd Peltzierfarm--but you have to look back past the 5th or 6th generation.


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## onyx'girl

Of the three dogs I have, only Karlo has genetic obedience. He is very biddable, a bit handler sensitive, but recovers and takes corrections without shutting down for the most part.
He wants to please and is always "with" me/looks to me for direction, but is independent enough on his own that he thinks for himself.
I never knew what it was until I experienced it. He is easy to train, and with a better skilled handler, would be farther along than he is! He isn't the flashiest as far as obedience heeling goes, so I don't believe that is what it is about. 
It is the biddability to please, but with the dog being independent/confident enough to not be totally dependent on the handler for direction.
He does come from Karlo v Peko Haus and in the thread Elisabeth is referring to, Karlo Peko Haus was not that way. 
So my Karlo get his from the great blending of pedigrees on his dams side(D & E repeat breeding litter are excellent examples of genetic obedience) and his sire.
My other two(who I have no pedigree info on) are not this way. It isn't because of training, but genetics.
Kacie is overly sensitive and will shut down or not make eye contact, or take treats. Onyx is stubborn to a degree, and corrections mean nothing to her if she wants what she wants. I've done the positive training as well with her~ she is overly anxious/into her own head, so not focusing on the handler is normal for her. I never knew the meaning until I saw it.


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## BlackthornGSD

onyx'girl said:


> Of the three dogs I have, only Karlo has genetic obedience. He is very biddable, a bit handler sensitive, but recovers and takes corrections without shutting down for the most part.
> He wants to please and is always "with" me/looks to me for direction, but is independent enough on his own that he thinks for himself.
> I never knew what it was until I experienced it. He is easy to train, and with a better skilled handler, would be farther along than he is! He isn't the flashiest as far as obedience heeling goes, so I don't believe that is what it is about.
> It is the biddability to please, but with the dog being independent/confident enough to not be totally dependent on the handler for direction.
> He does come from Karlo v Peko Haus and in the thread Elisabeth is referring to, Karlo Peko Haus was not that way.
> So my Karlo get his from the great blending of pedigrees on his dams side(D & E repeat breeding litter are excellent examples of genetic obedience) and his sire.
> My other two(who I have no pedigree info on) are not this way. It isn't because of training, but genetics.
> Kacie is overly sensitive and will shut down or not make eye contact, or take treats. Onyx is stubborn to a degree, and corrections mean nothing to her if she wants what she wants. I've done the positive training as well with her~ she is overly anxious/into her own head, so not focusing on the handler is normal for her. I never knew the meaning until I saw it.


If you look at his 6 generation pedigree, you see several of the dogs I mention. You also see Mutz in the 8th generation (through A vd Kleinen Pfahl). 

Also, from everything I've read about Andy, he seems likely to have a high desire to work WITH his person, so it sounds like he has it.

I suspect that it might be one of Lord Gleisdreieck's strengths as well--if you watch the old video of him working, you can see his desire to please and work with his person.


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## Andaka

Do any of you think that "handler sensitivity" and biddability are related?


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## sagelfn

Jason's Ike? Anyone know his pedigree?


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## onyx'girl

Ike is from this kennel ( Zasko/Hetty)


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## BlackthornGSD

One other thought... the dog I've known with the most "genetic obedience" was my old American line GSD, Thorn--if I told him to lie down and turn inside out, he would have done is best to first figure out what I was asking, then to do it. He was a _great _first dog--and that relationship with him is what hooked me on GSDs.

So genetic obedience not something that you'll just find in the European working lines. It's in the German, and Belgian and Dutch and Czech and DDR and show lines and American lines too. Not every dog, by any means, but every "type" has some dogs with a lot of it.


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## elisabeth_00117

Ike's pedigree:

Ike van het Basjes Huis - German Shepherd Dog

He is one of the dogs I think of when I hear "genetic obedience".


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## BlackthornGSD

Andaka said:


> Do any of you think that "handler sensitivity" and biddability are related?


Yes, but not always. Not when handler sensitivity is a result of nerviness and environmental softness or insecurity/submissiveness.

But I think that handler sensitivity can be the result of "too much" biddability--the trait taken to the high end of the spectrum.


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## Samba

My genetically obedient girl

Carmspack Samba - German Shepherd Dog


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## sagelfn

Thanks Jane and Elisabeth



elisabeth_00117 said:


> Ike's pedigree:
> 
> Ike van het Basjes Huis - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> *He is one of the dogs I think of when I hear "genetic obedience".*


Same here. I've seen clips of the sire as well. Both fun to watch.


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## elisabeth_00117

Another dog who I know personally who would fit in this category, is Stark's sire.

Aragorn vom Kraftwerk - German Shepherd Dog

He aims to please his handler, although I would not consider him handler sensitive/soft. Thinks on his own, able to work through pressure without issue, no sensitivities and is as stable as they come.


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## Andaka

I have had two "genetically obedient" dogs -- Jag and his grandsire Keno. Keno was like Christine discribed Thorn, if you could explain it, he would do it, often with little instruction on my part. Jag is most like him, and I see their handler sensitivity more as not wanting to make me unhappy with their performance. For example, Keno decided that he had to catch the frisbee every time because I praised him really big for catching it in the early stages. You could almost see him scuff his feet in disappointment if he missed one. Keno was an AKC Champion, Utility Dog, Oopen Agility, and Herding Started, with additional titles in conformation and herding with non-AKC groups. Jag is still a baby, but he is learning quickly.


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## Packen

In terms of drives this is described as a certain combination of Rank and Pack (lower in rank, higher in pack) relatively.


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## Jason L

Err ... Packen ... YOU GOT A JAVIR PUPPY!?!

As for Ike, I don't know how genetically obedient he is. All I know is he is not that obedient on trial day ... :laugh:


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## NancyJ

Ok, I definitely see this trait in my dog and have commented on it in the past.
I am so enthralled with it that I have at least tried to find dogs with old herding lines to evaluate for my next prospect though I know that trait is not exclusive to them and dont think he has them..........

But after working with such a dog who has never needed a prong and can work offlead independantly at a distance while always being in tune with me......I must have that again. ... it makes working together such a pleasure.

6 gen. pedigree for Grim van der Woude - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

Yes Andy Valy Mah had genetic obedience and passed it through his progeny. Many of the DDR of old and the Czech dogs of recent times had good genetic obedience coming in through Held v Ritterberg. Held's mother was Burga vom Haus Himpel. The Haus Himpel line is an old East herding line of many many generations. Great biddability and "genetic obedience". Burga was inbred 2-2 on Bernd v Lierberg, arguably the greatest combination of working and show and high end progeny to ever live. Bernd also had good biddability though somewhat harder than the haus himpel line in terms of manwork. Most of the recent Czech dogs of today, especially from the z PS lines, go back to Held....sometimes three or four times. The old DDR dogs of the nineties also had big Held influences. (Today's DDR dogs have less impact of Held and more of the Grafental, Haus Iris, etc, which doesn't have the hardness that Bernd gave to Held).
That's why today I beleive the Czech dogs are so successful as police dogs, because a police dog requires high biddability and teamwork with the handler. Most Czech dogs have this and yet have the hardness to do the heavy lifting the police dog requires. Not ideal for sport, but great for real work where routine is not as important as teamwork and taking direction.


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## onyx'girl

BlackthornGSD said:


> I suspect that it might be one of Lord Gleisdreieck's strengths as well--if you watch the old video of him working, you can see his desire to please and work with his person.


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## Freestep

jocoyn said:


> But after working with such a dog who has never needed a prong and can work offlead independantly at a distance while always being in tune with me......I must have that again. ... it makes working together such a pleasure.
> 
> 6 gen. pedigree for Grim van der Woude - German Shepherd Dog


Interesting. I had a Grim granddaughter that had very little "genetic obedience" as far as I could tell. She was stable, strong nerved, handler hard with high prey drive, but couldn't care less about whether I was happy.... I would say she was "genetically happy" and didn't have a need for handler approval.  She loved people and other dogs and always wanted to play. Drop dead gorgeous black sable, great little bitch, but as it turned out, she was not the right one for me. She was so hyper and her "cat drive" was so high that I worried about our cats, and no amount of reprimand would dissaude her. Unfortunately she also had moderate hip dysplasia--as agile and athletic as she was, that really surprised me. I rehomed her to a Schutzhund enthusiast with no cats.


Epik vom Schaaf 









I found her pedigree, this is actually her litter brother http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=623530


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## NancyJ

never mind went back and read...I see held v ritterberg was both part of grim x ps makeup and also the sire of my dog.
My own dog certainly has that dog in his lineage though quite far back.


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## NancyJ

BlackthornGSD said:


> If you look at his 6 generation pedigree, you see several of the dogs I mention. You also see Mutz in the 8th generation (through A vd Kleinen Pfahl).
> 
> Also, from everything I've read about Andy, he seems likely to have a high desire to work WITH his person, so it sounds like he has it.
> 
> I suspect that it might be one of Lord Gleisdreieck's strengths as well--if you watch the old video of him working, you can see his desire to please and work with his person.


A friend of mine has a Lord grandaughter and she is an amazing dog and has taken it upon herself to keep the farm animals on the property without any training.


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## Packen

Jason L said:


> Err ... Packen ... YOU GOT A JAVIR PUPPY!?!
> 
> As for Ike, I don't know how genetically obedient he is. All I know is he is not that obedient on trial day ... :laugh:


Hehe, see what happens when you leave :shocked: Creasy is the "blue boy"


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## Jason L

No kidding!! Congrats. Maybe he will turn out to be one of those genetically obedient dogs


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## holland

Well Nice pic of Ike...even if he isn't genetically obedient


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## NancyJ

Maybe we could get back to the topic?
It is a good one.


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## Freestep

Both my Sontausen dogs seem to have "genetic obedience" in spades. I know that is something Julia breeds for. I am just curious where it comes from in the pedigree.

L litter G (US) P.A.M. Lark von Sontausen - German Shepherd Dog

V litter Vello von Sontausen - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

There is a corellation between breeders that breed for working dogs and breeders that breed for other things. Breeders of dogs for herding, Seeing-eye foundations, and yes even police dogs,(like in Sweden), gravitate to dogs that have histories of good genetic obedience. Sontausen kennels, who is owned by Julia Priest, who was a long time police and k9 officer, has dogs that are going to go back to the older lines that were strong in this area. I really hope Carmen jumps in on this thread as she has bred specifically for this trait for close to 40 years. More importantly, she knows the Eastern and Western European dogs that possessed this trait. In the sixties there were still many American breeders of German dogs, a couple generations in; that produced this like Caralon kennels among many.
Trommel kennel and Bodo v Grafental also produced good biddable dogs. Erich Renner and the guide dogs out west, which went back to Bodo v Lierberg, the brother of Bernd also produced a lot of guide progeny.


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## cliffson1

Genetic obedience was very well describesd by Christine earlier in this thread. It really reflects the dog's ability to mesh with the human in providing valuable services to man. There was a DDR dog of the past named Ali Granert who was legendary for imparting this type of temperament. Ingo Rudigen, another East dog that has many links to DDR dogs and West working lines was known for producing very biddable dogs. But we must realize that the biddability has to be matched with a tenacity, and focus, and nervebase to allow the dog to remain in control as they execute the demands placed upon them by their vocation. This trait in times past was of the highest importance in selecting stock to breed. As the years have gone by and priorities such as color, show, sport, have become more important, this trait has slid down the spectrum as being primary. Oftentimes today I run into people who think that the hard, highly driven dogs are the best working dogs. Yet, you don't see them as often in things such as police work, SAR, herding, and guidework, as other types. I beleive this is because the complexity of what is asked of them from day to day requires them to subordinate their drives to the execution of their tasks which may vary from day to day and thus require them to "figure it out". 
In the military when we were training Scout dog handlers, one of the hardest things to teach handlers was to " trust their dogs" when the dogs have given an alert that you cannot see evidence of the basis for the alert. The handler has to learn to trust, respect, and lean upon the dog for their life and future. Just as the shepherd does with his flock, just as mine dogs do when walking point in a mine infested area. The bond between handler and dog becomes like a very successful marriage of give and take and respect. This has to evolve and the dogs with "genetic obedience" learn to excell and become awesome teammates. This bond is at another level than sport work as the reliance of the handler on the dog is felt by the dog in an emotional realm that supersedes training. The handler actually depends on this dog for its existence, ie the guide dogs for the visually impaired. The level of competence between the dog team can reach phenomenal heights as experienced by the man's testimonies in Law Enforcement, Military, and SAR can attest to. 
This is a vital critical aspect of this breed that most breeders don't know about, even less place importance upon, and cannot be maintained if you are breeding for specializations. This is one of the reasons that many people don't beleive the accounts of the dogs of old in terms of "being better". They didn't have a better long grip than today's dogs, they didn't have better angulation than today's dogs, they certainly weren't prettier than today's dogs, but they had the temperaments of many of the strong Mutt dogs, that didn't require socialization, and perfect health scores, and they had incredible trainability. 
The specialization breeders will pooh pooh my posts because they don't want to change priorities in breeding, and in many cases can't conceive these type dogs....but the legacy of this breed is very narrow today in terms of vocational work, and this was not always the case....genetic obedience being a greater part of the breed is part of that reason.JMO


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## onyx'girl

I was thinking about this today as I passed my local State police dept training their K9's at the local fire dept...I wanted to stop and observe sooo bad!

Most LEO K9's are not _trained_ by their handler, but go to a training academy first (after being approved to even get that far), then matched with the LEO they will partner with. These dogs must have genetic obedience to comply with a complete stranger and their commands. 
So while the bond is being formed with the handler, the dog still has to do what is asked and not hesitate or 'question' what is being asked of it. And sometimes life and death depend on the dog being genetically obedient.


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## elisabeth_00117

Very good point Cliff and Jane.


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## GSD07

I disagree that the sign of 'gen. obedient' dogs is compliance to any stranger and their commands. What would prevent a criminal in this case to give the dog a command like 'platz' and walk away from a super obedient dog? 

I do think that the bond comes first and is the foundation of the obedience. The catch is that the dog doesn't 'have' to do what is asked, he will do it because he wants to do it with his handler. Like Cliff said, the dog needs to be trusted, and I would not trust a dog that never questions anything.


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## Liesje

Interesting thread. I don't think I've owned/handled enough GSDs to really have a handle on this yet. My current three are all very different depending on context and luckily as far as what I'm looking for with regard to "obedience" we haven't had any major struggles yet. I would say so far, Nikon is overall the closest to what *I* personally look for in a dog (but Pan's just a puppy so that's kind of unfair!). Interestingly, he is not a working line for SchH podium but from HGH herding lines. I'm always interested in how much control work is/was needed in protection work, not because I want flashy obedience in that phase but personally I don't like a dog that is totally overloaded either in prey or defense, and I don't want a dog I need to constantly be popping the head off of just for some control. Because we do other types of protection where there is often much more frontal threat and exercises where the decoy is being aggressive but the dog must remain sitting and quiet I am willing to sacrifice some of that over the top drive, speed, and flash for a dog I can "reach". My Kenya is working lines but never did protection work so I can't really evaluate that. She is the kind of dog that works for praise and affirmation, has no interest in toys and will accept treats but that is not why she works. I'm not really sure if that is the full picture though. It is a strength of hers as well as a weakness, as she tends to get quirky when *she* is unsure what to do or isn't getting enough communication from the handler. As connected and obedient as she can be she also struggles working more independently when called for and letting her own instincts take control.

I could be way off but I see this "genetic obedience" going hand in hand with a dog that is general clear headed and not overloaded in prey, not such a low threshold for prey or defense but more of a medium threshold dog with appropriate levels of drive that is respectful of the handler and "reachable" without insane levels of compulsion or the other extreme of constant luring and spoon-feeding.

ETA: Oksana just posted and I agree with her post. I think genetic obedience is much more than just obeying commands. I would hope that my dogs do not respond the same to a stranger or even my husband as they do to me. Same for a police dog. A friend who used to be a dual purpose K9 handler told me about the time he got his last police dog. He went to the kennel to do the 2 week "camp" with the dog and when they were told to go into the kennels and retrieve their dogs, his dog ate his arm. I can't vouch for the quality of the dog or his handling but he definitely understood the concept of developing a bond and learning to respect and trust each other.


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## onyx'girl

GSD07 said:


> I disagree that the sign of 'gen. obedient' dogs is compliance to any stranger and their commands. What would prevent a criminal in this case to give the dog a command like 'platz' and walk away from a super obedient dog?
> 
> I do think that the bond comes first and is the foundation of the obedience. The catch is that the dog doesn't 'have' to do what is asked, he will do it because he wants to do it with his handler. Like Cliff said, the dog needs to be trusted, and I would not trust a dog that never questions anything.


This is not what I meant at all....'any stranger'. 
Of course a LEO will not take their K9 out on patrol right out of the gate, but the bond they share may not be strong when it does finally happen(patrol work). 
It isn't as if the LEO has trained the dog since the beginning like many of us do. They take a dog that is already strong in foundation and trust that the dog has genetic obedience to perform. I don't think a dog would go very far in law enforcement without it. I guess I didn't make myself clear in my post.


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> I could be way off but I see this "genetic obedience" going hand in hand with a dog that is general clear headed and not overloaded in prey, not such a low threshold for prey or defense but more of a medium threshold dog with appropriate levels of drive that is respectful of the handler and "reachable" without insane levels of compulsion or the other extreme of constant luring and spoon-feeding.


I'm no expert, but I'd tend to agree with you. My Grim granddaughter was constantly overloaded with prey drive, or curiosity, or SOMETHING--it was like she was on speed all the time and as such was not very "reachable", even with a prong collar. It's like she had ADD. All my other GSDs have been very responsive and biddable, almost to a fault.


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## cliffson1

Its hard to explain genetic obedience, but the points that I want to emphasize is that ONCE the bond and understanding is developed by handler and dog, then the dog becomes very proficient at the task or training learned or that is instinctive. OFTEN, the dog works very independent of the handler but always within the scope of the duties that the job entails.


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## cliffson1

An example of the differences I speak of is the difference in many top sport tracking and real tracking in the military or police work. With the former, the techniques of today's particpants really minimize the thinking and figuring out by the dog. Many of the dogs are trained in such a way that this is primarily an obedience exercise. In reality, tracking is something in which the handler should have minimal influence and RELY on the dog to acheive the objective. With the latter forms of tracking, the dog will often use all of its resources to find the article or trail the person. The dog has to be trusted and allowed to figure it out. The TRAINING of these dogs is to encourage the natural use of nose and instincts in doing the track. With sport tracking it is so much obedience focused in training and scoring, that the natural instincts within the dog are minimized or barely awakened. As a result a different kind of dog that is oble to handle heavy handler involvement is gravitated to as opposed to a dog that may be handler sensitive but it isn't an issue because the dog is allowed to work somewhat independently in acheiving the goal. 
Hope this makes sense, but I'm trying to reflect some insights to genetic obediences and uses in past and lack of uses today in some venues.
This is why in East Germany many females only had FH degrees in years past. The emphasis was on keeping strong the instinctive traits in females, at a time when the tracking degree had not become the precision exercise that it is today. An FH tracker tells a lot about a dog when the emphasis on Sch was different and they graded more on overall performance as opposed to minute details.


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## NancyJ

One question here - because I think the answer is "no" is how to evaluate for genetic obedience when looking at a working prospect.

So you are evaluating this young dog and he/she does not give a flip about who you are "yet". Many people who raise the pups intended for "hand off" up are not going to develop a super strong bond (or are they?)

Are there any traits to "look for" or is it in knowing where they come from?


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## Doc

cliffson1 said:


> An example of the differences I speak of is the difference in many top sport tracking and real tracking in the military or police work. With the former, the techniques of today's particpants really minimize the thinking and figuring out by the dog. Many of the dogs are trained in such a way that this is primarily an obedience exercise. In reality, tracking is something in which the handler should have minimal influence and RELY on the dog to acheive the objective. With the latter forms of tracking, the dog will often use all of its resources to find the article or trail the person. The dog has to be trusted and allowed to figure it out. The TRAINING of these dogs is to encourage the natural use of nose and instincts in doing the track. With sport tracking it is so much obedience focused in training and scoring, that the natural instincts within the dog are minimized or barely awakened. As a result a different kind of dog that is oble to handle heavy handler involvement is gravitated to as opposed to a dog that may be handler sensitive but it isn't an issue because the dog is allowed to work somewhat independently in acheiving the goal.
> Hope this makes sense, but I'm trying to reflect some insights to genetic obediences and uses in past and lack of uses today in some venues.
> This is why in East Germany many females only had FH degrees in years past. The emphasis was on keeping strong the instinctive traits in females, at a time when the tracking degree had not become the precision exercise that it is today. An FH tracker tells a lot about a dog when the emphasis on Sch was different and they graded more on overall performance as opposed to minute details.


I think all the training in the world can't produce a dog that is better at a given task as one that has the natural (genetic obedience) for that given task. I think you are right Cliff. A handler/trainer is there to cultivate/bring out what is already inside the dog - not imprint some technique that isn't naturally found in the dog. If the dog isn't genetically wired for tracking, why would someone "force" the dog to do something it isn't wired for? Can it be done? I'm sure it can and is but what does does that prove - That one is a good trainer? You can train monkey's to ride a bicycle but that task isn't naturally wired into them. Like you said, there is a big difference in doing something for a score or points than doing it because it's inside you.


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## cliffson1

Doc:thumbup:,
And this isn't a referendum on sport, working, or show from my perspective. Just trying to give some insights into a different type of GS that I think was bred for innate traits as opposed to traits developed to excel in unnatural venues. There is a reason the author of the breed cautioned against show and sport. I think he foresaw the day that because the reason for breeding was not for true instinctive working traits, we may move toward artificially enhanced or created traits. I don't think he realized that the day would come when breeders of the type traits would vociferously defend these traits as necessary for reputable breeding...smile. But what is lost in this evolution is that most breeders/owners are no longer breeding for the instinctive traits as opposed to the enhanced traits. Things like prey drive, reach, angulation are primary focuses in breeders that already have these things in abundance. 
Breeding for instinctive temperament is pretty much a thing of the past, partially because many breeders think these enhanced traits are/were the way the breed should/was from the beginning.
You can't tell a person on the internet how to evaluate for "genetic obedience", this comes with years of experience of working dogs in venues that use it. 
That's why to me reputable breeders is a joke, unless you truly know the cpabilities of the breed, how can you breed for what it should be...regardless of titles, certs, or shows or trial results. 
If you are a breeder there is no shorttcut for getting out there and working this breed, at least until you have an abundance of experience....then you can recognize and understand genetic obedience, then you can select for animals to breed to that possess it. JMO


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## Samba

Dogs who are genetically endowed with abilities don't take that much training. They make a trainer look good! You can train a dog for a performance, but if you have everbtrained a talented dog you will know the difference yourself.

I agree Doc. You can't train something INTO a dog. Training with those with the abilities versus those without is an enlightening experience.

I have the best dogs from breeders who really workmwith and understand these innate abilities in the breed. There are many breeders who not know or who have other priorities in production. 

Cliff,yes,truly reputable breeding is a high calling to preserve the breeds abilities. It is not just someone who does certain screenings, titles and takes care of their dogs.


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## GSD07

Samba said:


> Dogs who are genetically endowed with abilities don't take that much training. They make a trainer look good!


 If my current dog were my first dog I would be convinced that I'm a h** of a trainer and I'm a dog whisperer LOL I'm not, I just lucked out with my dog and I give him a credit for being so great. I think genetic obedience is when the dog reads your mind, when you show what you need and it clicks immediately, when being together is not exhausting but just the opposite, and the connection between two of you is so strong you can almost touch it. I'm not so good in explaining it, but I'm just glad I am experiencing it


----------



## NancyJ

Freestep said:


> I'm no expert, but I'd tend to agree with you. My Grim granddaughter was constantly overloaded with prey drive, or curiosity, or SOMETHING--it was like she was on speed all the time and as such was not very "reachable", even with a prong collar. It's like she had ADD. All my other GSDs have been very responsive and biddable, almost to a fault.


I would not *blame* that entirely on Grim as my Grim grandson is no way that way [don't get me wrong; he has very much prey drive and has needed much work from me to enforce the idea that he does not grab toys from me, etc. and I have bone spurs on my shins and a bad shoulder due to him....BUT.....he still has this uncanny obedience with no pinch or choke needed, and with an almost telepathic communication.

Grim zPS does have the old herding dog Cliffson mentioned. My dog does have that elsewere in the lines as well as well as a dose of closer up DDR that probably moderates things.

I think the commonality of all the ones I have talked with about this is simply OLD herding lines - lost in the translation - and probably what really distinguishes the GSD. Too bad so many want to Malinois that looks like a GSD.


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## GROVEBEAUTY

Very interesting! I didn't quite understand until I read a little of the topic. I now understand the term and agree that some dogs just have some of sort of connection. I had that with a female I had named Hera. She was a Czech dog. She just seems to know what I wanted and would turn herself inside out to get it right. It's a little bit like a couple of the horses I have trained. In my life there have been two horses out of the many that I have trained that just seemed to read my mind. In horses, we train to the abilities of the horse and what they are suited to. I have always thought that dogs should be trained the same way, but I see sooo many dogs that are not. Their owners force them into something that they really don't like or really have the ability for. I have never understood this.


----------



## Samba

Old herding lines, I imagine so. Samba is uncanny with the sheep. How many people really know what a herding shepherd is comprised of these days? Those well versed in the breed will recognize the traits and abilities, even if they don't herd with them though.

Many of the GSDs still possess some herding instinct. But, being with one that is very genetically talented at it is eye opening also. There you find extreme intensity, intelligent decision making and yet very responsive obedience naturally.


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## Mrs.K

Samba said:


> Old herding lines, I imagine so. Samba is uncanny with the sheep. How many people really know what a herding shepherd is comprised of these days? Those well versed in the breed will recognize the traits and abilities, even if they don't herd with them though.
> 
> Many of the GSDs still possess some herding instinct. But, being with one that is very genetically talented at it is eye opening also. There you find extreme intensity, intelligent decision making and yet very responsive obedience naturally.


Absolutely, I remember that Olko vom Baerenfang used to herd the Horses and I am not kidding. He went up and down the fence, patrolling, literally leaving a path over the years. Never attacked the horses but rather herding them. They did the same thing around the riding arena. 

We also used to have sheep's and goats, one day they broke loose and my (then) bitch actually helped to bring them back in and she never had a herding lesson in her life. She rounded them up, blocked them from going any further down the street and once they were back on the property it was easy to get them back into their pen. But without her, they would scattered, possibly running onto the busy highway.


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## Freestep

jocoyn said:


> I would not *blame* that entirely on Grim


Oh, I'm not--after all, there are dozens of other dogs in the pedigree! I don't know where "genetic obedience" or the lack thereof would come from--I just named Grim because he is the "famous" dog on her sire's side. She goes back to Ando von Santa Maria and Troll vom Korbelbach on her dam's side. I am not certain where her hard-headedness came from.


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## Ruthie

Liesje said:


> I could be way off but I see this "genetic obedience" going hand in hand with a dog that is general clear headed and not overloaded in prey, not such a low threshold for prey or defense but more of a medium threshold dog with appropriate levels of drive that is respectful of the handler and "reachable" without insane levels of compulsion or the other extreme of constant luring and spoon-feeding.


I don't know about this as a general statement, but Bison is definitely an exception. He has low threshold for prey. He overloads quite easily. Yet, I would say that he is quite biddable. He has a very strong desire to please, and is handler sensitive. 

Him being low threshold and highly biddable causes internal conflict for him and elevates his drive even more. It is very easy to see this when working on outs both with a ball or sleeve. You can see that he is very concerned about pleasing me, but at the same time his drive level will not allow him to "out". We have had to spend a lot of time working on getting him to and keeping him in the right drive level in protection for this reason. Maybe I am not explaining this with the right terminology, but using obedience like heeling helps get him to the right level so he can stay clear headed and doesn't have that internal conflict. 

I, like, Lies have only had small handful of dogs to compare, but the differences I see in what I would label genetic obedience is the desire to respond to the handler. I think this is most evident when you are NOT using reward or physical corrections. My dogs that I think are genetically biddable respond to my voice and body language. They CARE that I do or don't want them to do something. The less biddable dogs, I have to make them care either by offering rewards or corrections. Am I on the right track here?


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## Mrs.K

q12E4EESZSWER78WZasert\] .'
\lppuawrtk/..
.89*8
;'ftfddfgvcgvbnm nm, nmkhu 3 mkkmnkmnnbgygygyhgyyyttr5dre4fftftvcc4


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## holland

???


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## Mrs.K

I have no idea where that post is coming from.


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## NancyJ

Mrs.K said:


> I have no idea where that post is coming from.


Blame it on Yukon
There was no beer in the fridge and he was pseudswearing. You have to quit leeting that dog surf the web.


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## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> Blame it on Yukon
> There was no beer in the fridge and he was pseudswearing. You have to quit leeting that dog surf the web.


He's telepathic... he can do it with his MIND!!! 


RUUUUUN!!!!!!


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## Catu

Well, tell Yukon that this is a family friendy board and if he keeps swearing like that, I'll have to report him to a moderator


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## Mrs.K

Seriously, I have no idea how that happened. The computer ran a scan while this happened so I don't know what kind of code that is...


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## sagelfn

Mrs.K said:


> q12E4EESZSWER78WZasert\] .'
> \lppuawrtk/..
> .89*8
> ;'ftfddfgvcgvbnm nm, nmkhu 3 mkkmnkmnnbgygygyhgyyyttr5dre4fftftvcc4


How did Yukon learn the Bush's beans secret recipe?


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## Mrs.K

HAHAHAHA! Now that's hilarious. But c'mon guys... up until now it was a very interesting topic 

Not that I don't enjoy the Yukon jokes, though


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## carmspack

*genetic obedience*

[

Most LEO K9's are not _trained_ by their handler, but go to a training academy first (after being approved to even get that far), then matched with the LEO they will partner with.

xxxxx not the case. The chosen partner and the dog go into training for certification together . 

These dogs must have genetic obedience to comply with a complete stranger and their commands. 

xxxxx there are not so many dogs around with true "genetic obedience" .
It has nothing to do with complying with a strange handler . Dogs must exhibit control and "obedience" as per training , but this has nothing to do with genetic obedience .


So while the bond is being formed with the handler, the dog still has to do what is asked and not hesitate or 'question' what is being asked of it. And sometimes life and death depend on the dog being genetically obedient.

xxxxxx not genetically obedient, and sometimes life and death depend on the dog NOT being obedient but assessing a situation and acting upon it appropriately. There must be control and controllabilty.

Carmen


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## carmspack

". Many people who raise the pups intended for "hand off" up are not going to develop a super strong bond (or are they?)

Are there any traits to "look for" or is it in knowing where they come from?[/QUOTE]


When a dog has genetic obedience the raising up is so much easier -- and yes there is a super strong bond --- but it is healthy -- the dog will transfer his desire to be a partner -- 

Carmen


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## carmspack

time conservative so jumping all over the place here -- yes on Lord Gleisdreieck -- source Jeff Flamingsand who is a strong source for Ali Granert -- SG Lord vom Gleisdreieck - German Shepherd Dog

Quax h Holland check out the linebreeding on Ali V Quax vom Haus Holland - German Shepherd Dog 4 5 5 5 5 and again through Barry 
Lars Furstendam contributing Ali Granert son Barry 555 4 

Bill Fasanenhof --

Nette Taubenhugel , Ali Granert 5 5455 .

this does not mean that using Jeff Flamingsand or Ingo Rudigen or Birko Wolfshohle , son of Jeff with much Bernd !! , or sum total Lord Gleisdreieck will give you instant genetic obedience -- but Ali Granert certainly is a foundation dog for many honest hardworking , working dogs in many nations and many fields . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba

I think we again come to a discussion of what to look for in a pup that indicates this trait? I bet the answer is as Carmen says. You have to look at where the pups come from.


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## BlackthornGSD

Ruthie said:


> I don't know about this as a general statement, but Bison is definitely an exception. He has low threshold for prey. He overloads quite easily. Yet, I would say that he is quite biddable. He has a very strong desire to please, and is handler sensitive.
> 
> Him being low threshold and highly biddable causes internal conflict for him and elevates his drive even more. It is very easy to see this when working on outs both with a ball or sleeve. You can see that he is very concerned about pleasing me, but at the same time his drive level will not allow him to "out". We have had to spend a lot of time working on getting him to and keeping him in the right drive level in protection for this reason. Maybe I am not explaining this with the right terminology, but using obedience like heeling helps get him to the right level so he can stay clear headed and doesn't have that internal conflict.
> 
> I, like, Lies have only had small handful of dogs to compare, but the differences I see in what I would label genetic obedience is the desire to respond to the handler. I think this is most evident when you are NOT using reward or physical corrections. My dogs that I think are genetically biddable respond to my voice and body language. They CARE that I do or don't want them to do something. The less biddable dogs, I have to make them care either by offering rewards or corrections. Am I on the right track here?


Yes. I think you described your dog very well.

I too have one bitch who has to be in the right "headspace" to work with me--then she is FANTASTIC. But if she's gotten to do too much self-rewarding activity (like fence running) or if I don't show her that I am relevant to what we are doing (in herding, for example), then I get utterly ignored. I have to have her respect and she has to know I'm on her team (or she's on my team), then I have a real partner and she is amazing. Even though I raised this girl, I had to prove myself worth working with--not through force, but through consistency and being the one that lets her get to do the things her instincts insist on (I mainly train her in herding).

As for your last paragraph, just because a dog wants the reward or is easy to train with a reward doesn't mean they don't have "genetic obedience" -- they don't always go hand in hand, but they don't conflict either, not if the training is good. But I agree, there are some dogs who are only obedient for the reward or because of the history of rewards and reinforcements. Other dogs are obedient because it is *YOU* who is asking.


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## BlackthornGSD

Samba said:


> I think we again come to a discussion of what to look for in a pup that indicates this trait? I bet the answer is as Carmen says. You have to look at where the pups come from.


You can see it in puppies, sometimes, as they start getting their little brains and personalities put together--you can get a hint. Yes, look to the parents, but not every pup in the litter is going to have the same traits.

I look for following and eye contact and _engagement_--a natural retrieve can help indicate it, but I don't think a lack of a retrieve means it's missing.


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## BlackthornGSD

GSD07 said:


> If my current dog were my first dog I would be convinced that I'm a h** of a trainer and I'm a dog whisperer LOL I'm not, I just lucked out with my dog and I give him a credit for being so great. I think genetic obedience is when the dog reads your mind, when you show what you need and it clicks immediately, when being together is not exhausting but just the opposite, and the connection between two of you is so strong you can almost touch it. I'm not so good in explaining it, but I'm just glad I am experiencing it


I call that having a smart dog and a good relationship--which isn't necessarily "genetic obedience," although it may go hand in hand with it.


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## holland

You need to show Yukon spell check


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## Mrs.K

Oh the Fame. I hope he can deal with all that attention.


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## Whiteshepherds

*Genetic obedience*

Anne (Vandal) posted something in another thread about genetic obedience. I was hoping she or anyone else with the knowledge could elaborate about it. 

I think Annie does more based on instinct than Harley. If she loses a ball in the high grass she sniffs her way to it, always has. Harley stands in one place and looks around trying to see it. 
Annie started herding (tending?) when she was led into a pen with 9 sheep and let off the lead. There was no question that she understood what she could and couldn't do. Harley can do it but I've had to train him to know what is and isn't appropriate. 

Are these examples a sign of genetic obedience that I'm seeing in Annie more than Harley or no? 

How do you spot genetic obedience in a puppy?


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## Andaka

It is the puppy that wants to be with people. When I am evaluating a litter, I look for the puppy that will follow me when I walk away from the litter. I look for the puppy that brings back a thrown toy. I look for the puppy that likes to be touched, as praise will be important to him. That's not all that I look for, but that is some of it.


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## Jax08

Might be something helpful in this thread. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/161374-genetic-obedience.html


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## Whiteshepherds

Jax08 said:


> Might be something helpful in this thread.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/161374-genetic-obedience.html


LOL, well look at that! Thanks!


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## Liesje

I don't really have a firm grasp on this topic (I tend to see obedience as obedience, I train the way I train and either the dog can handle it or not) but to me it means a dog that works because of the relationship with the handler and not just out of drive overload or a gimmick like luring. A dog that may not be the most flashy and snappy in obedience but in general is a dog that is not that difficult to train and work with. Like in protection, the control aspects happen as they should without having to really get on the dog over and over.

In my own dogs I see this more with Nikon than Pan (but Pan is only one year so I reserve judgment). Pan has more drive and often he will do things repeatedly that Nikon might view as a pointless waste of energy, but when working Nikon I feel there is much more of a connection and we are working as a team and he is working for *me*. Pan is fast and because he has more drive he can do obedience for much longer and sustain the level of intensity but Nikon actually learns things faster and is able to learn things using a variety of methods whereas Pan takes longer to figure something out and learns best using one or two methods. Pan's obedience will look much better but Nikon is far more versatile. Also Nikon has a natural obedience in protection that allows us to do things that would otherwise overload a dog like Pan (a dog with a lower threshold). While at his age and training level, Nikon has far more defense and fight drive than Pan, I consider him a "safer" dog to bring out to events like parades, meeting kids, etc because he is always mindful of me and has a higher threshold so he's not distracted.


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## Deejays_Owner

Liesje, It almost sounds like show vs working with Nikon & Pan... :thinking:

Our two are very much the same, Deejay, I would say has Genetic Obedience .
Works Very Very well at a distance, no matter the distraction, a go anywhere do anything with dog.
All he wants to do is to be with me all the time & please me.
Little Ray, is very smart & a fast learner too, but very independent.
She will go and play my herself, "try to kill an object or thing" is what she loves to do.
Will go off to be by herself, will stay out in the yard all day by herself if you were to let her.
Were Deejay will be at the door crying to come in to be with us.
She is very SHARP, Loves to fight, does not like other dogs.
But on the other hand if she gets too stressed out she will flee!!
Not what I would consider a "safe" dog.


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## Liesje

I don't know that I'd go that far with the generalization. I think it has more to do with their thresholds. I think especially the threshold for prey effects how clear the dog can think which seems to effect how naturally obedience the dog seems...at least to me. Nikon is a higher threshold dog, especially when it comes to prey drive and how that plays out in obedience and protection (and herding too, for that matter); Pan is much much lower threshold, easy to overload in prey, lots of "oo shiny!" moments. I've seen some showline with lower threshold for prey drive than Pan, and working lines more like Nikon. I'm sure preference comes into play as well. Maybe the dog I prefer just *seems* more genetically obedient to me? Pan is more independent as well, but again maybe that has to do with the lower threshold and higher energy. Nikon is content to sit at my feet all day long if I let him, while Pan gets bored and likes to go outside where he can make his own fun. Both my dogs can take a lot of pressure and were very similar as puppies (though Nikon showed prey drive at a younger age, Pan had sort of a lightbulb experience at 6 months). Nikon can take more from me than Pan but again he's two years older, Pan's still a baby to me and he recovers instantly.


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## Deejays_Owner

Now, both of ours were prey crazy from day one.
But Little Ray could not be redirected with a toy, she wanted to fight the person. And would spit the toy and go for your hand, arm, leg etc.
I had to many times, pull her off Shannon when she was little.
She is still like that today when playing tug with her, starts off tugging hard gets into it then will come up your arm, looking you in the eye.
She is our little nut-bar, she has charged everyone in the house, but Shannon. Then two seconds latter she is the sweetest most loving girl..


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## Liesje

Interesting, mine were the opposite and very similar to each other. Both would chase, retrieve, tug (though Pan wasn't as into these things originally as Nikon) and engage with toys, but never once had them mouthing on people (me, clothes, etc). It's not even that I would care if they did - part of owning a puppy - but my friends are convinced I give off some sort of aura! One of Nikon's littermates got returned b/c the owner couldn't deal with the mouthing. Nikon never touched me.


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## Deejays_Owner

I'm not talking about a little mouthing..:wild:
Deejay and my other GSD have done that (typical GSD puppy stuff).
I grew-up in a breeder/show home, back before there were two lines!!
I know what is typical puppy mouthing.

One of little Ray's litter mates was returned also, as the owner became afraid of him as he started to grow-up.

I know that my wife had been scared a few times from Little Ray charging her.
Everyone knows now to just say her name as she is flying toward you and she snaps out of it.
She did it to my Son the night before last!!


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## onyx'girl

I think Little Ray's temperament comes from her sire Kway...
not so much because she is from working lines, but THE lines she is from.


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## Deejays_Owner

Yes, her Sire Kway a Regional & North American SchH3 Champion.
The Son of *the Legend* _SG Asko von der Lutter SchH3 (V-BSP, V-WUSV) FH1 IP3 Kkl 1!!_
*"A dog who brings the most TOP progeny in the working scene!!" *


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## Liesje

I avoided getting a Kway puppy because it seems the progeny have been quite the range of great to disastrous. Haven't met or seen the dog himself so I don't know what he is like, but I don't have enough experience with pedigrees to see the pattern of what combo works and what doesn't with him on the top.


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## carmspack

Genetic obedience has not one thing to do with training or obedience .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wolfstraum

You both need to do some serious background research on Kway - specifically on Asko's sire....the explanation ofr his is in his pedigree....

I thought long and hard before getting a dog with Asko in it's pedigree. The fact that I knew 2 dogs specifically from Eyko Morfelder Land - whose dam is exceptional in strength and power (and correct active aggression) - and that I knew the lines of the dam (a Paska S. daughter, Xito granddaughter) convinced me that there were balancing elements in the pedigree, even with the aggression I know is there. I got an extremely stong puppy - one who will watch the street action from my yard, and alert at 3 months on people strolling (apparently suspiciously!) a half block away....and bringing her to Ufo lines in the future will be a very very good combination.


Yes, Asko was a top producing dog....a fantastic dog....but what people fail to realize here is that these top competition dogs are NOT KEPT the same way the Americans tend to keep dogs - esp in novice and companion homes!!!! GSDs are kenneled for the most part in Europe, yes, some will live in the house, but by and large, the top competitors keep them in kennels! I have seen several Asko sons (one was in a pedigree that was posted a few days ago) and would always caution anyone to thoroughly research what was sucessful from Asko, and to learn about the temperaments of that family!

There are some very balancing aspects in Kway's pedigree - Aly had super super temperament and produced it, along with hips, but sometimes, the character can come from behind the parents!!! Dino's character was no secret, nor was his passing it on...also - look at his pedigree and it is easy to see why Asko was bred to an Aly daughter!

Lee


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

carmspack said:


> Genetic obedience has not one thing to do with training or obedience .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Hey! You can't just do that!  More, please?


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## BlackthornGSD

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Hey! You can't just do that!  More, please?


There's a whole thread about it.


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## BlackthornGSD

wolfstraum said:


> I thought long and hard before getting a dog with Asko in it's pedigree. The fact that I knew 2 dogs specifically from Eyko Morfelder Land - whose dam is exceptional in strength and power (and correct active aggression) - and that I knew the lines of the dam (a Paska S. daughter, Xito granddaughter) convinced me that there were balancing elements in the pedigree, even with the aggression I know is there. I got an extremely stong puppy - one who will watch the street action from my yard, and alert at 3 months on people strolling (apparently suspiciously!) a half block away....and bringing her to Ufo lines in the future will be a very very good combination.


Tell me more about your Eyko puppy? Do you have any pictures of her?

I've been watching Eyko and really like his pedigree--because of the mother's motherline as much as anything else and had thought about trying to find a female out of him in the future.


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## justde

I have an Asko Lutter grandson from his mother's side, Dasty Berger Hochburg is his sire: Lazer vom Landschaft Absolutely stable, although his fight, grips astound everyone, including Flinks. NO handler aggression either. His daughter, on the other hand, I have to be careful with. No aggression to me or family, but is certainly protective of her territory.
Sue


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## cliffson1

Lee, I agree with your post on Asko....he does have strong motherline, but he is still a dog that has to be bred to with knowledge. He has tremendous upside but he has also been part of breedings that have had extreme aggression, and inability to adequately cap drives leading to displacement behavoirs including spinning. Was a great sport producer as his record speaks for itself, but you will find that Aly Vordinsteinwald was a much better complimantary dog in producing than Asko. That is why Aly is found in so many top sport pedigrees. Hips aside which he was tremendous in, he also complimented the extreme dogs well.


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## Freestep

wolfstraum said:


> but what people fail to realize here is that these top competition dogs are NOT KEPT the same way the Americans tend to keep dogs - esp in novice and companion homes!!!! GSDs are kenneled for the most part in Europe, yes, some will live in the house, but by and large, the top competitors keep them in kennels! I have seen several Asko sons (one was in a pedigree that was posted a few days ago) and would always caution anyone to thoroughly research what was sucessful from Asko, and to learn about the temperaments of that family.


That's a really good point. It would seem to me that you'd know more about your dog's day-to-day temperament if the dog lives in the house with you. I don't know how many of the top breeders keep their dogs in the house and how many keep them kennelled, but one of the reasons I like my breeder is that her dogs are kept in the house like a companion dog would be. That way, she has a deep understanding of her dogs' temperament and behavior not only on the field, but in the home. How generations of dogs handle themselves day-to-day when they have a bit of freedom is telling. How do they get along with other dogs? With neighbors? Do they settle in the home, or are they a perpetual motion machine? Are they velcro dogs?

If the top sport dogs are kept kennelled whenever they aren't being worked, you might not get the whole picture of the dog, in all aspects of its life. I've heard it said that living in the home can squash a dog's drive, but I am not sure if I believe that. 

Sorry if this is a thread hijack, but it seems to me that you would know "genetic obedience" best when you actually live with generations of the bloodlines.


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## Vandal

Pardon me, while I disagree with the kennel comment. If someone doesn't know what their dog is like because he stays in a kennel at night, they don't know dogs period. Come on, we are getting a little silly here. I guess I could say if you bring your dog inside and put them in a crate, there is a temperament problem also. I am not sure what Lee meant there, maybe she can explain but like I said, if you know dogs, you know dogs, no matter where they sleep at night. Might be a case of people buying a dog from Europe without asking about temperament because they DON'T KNOW DOGS but again, the kennel doesn't tell the whole story. If someone told me they knew their dogs better because they stayed in the house all the time, I would run, not walk away. I expect people to understand a bit more than that but that's just me.


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## cliffson1

I definitely agree with Anne....BOT....genetic obedience is something that 90% of the people on the board wouldn't recognize if they saw it in front of their face. It is something that becomes apparent as you have witnessed countless examples of dogs working and can see the distinct differences in a genetically obedient dog and a well trained dog. One hint....genetic obedience is "natural" and not the result of training, though it can be a part of a trained dog. This is one reason that discussing the meat of this breed cannot be done without working experience; to have a point of reference to what and why the dog is doing what it is doing. This means all aspects of the dogs work ethic, to include scentwork, obedience, working in drive, protection work. Some of the things discussed, you can't have a "working" knowledge of it, unless the dog is worked in that arena. That's why breeders that don't believe in protection work and are breeding this particular breed are likely to have shallow knowledge in a very important aspect of the breed's makeup. The more lack of knowledge the breeder has the greater chance that aspects of the breed will go into demise.


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## Deejays_Owner

cliffson1 said:


> Lee, I agree with your post on Asko....he does have strong motherline, but he is still a dog that has to be bred to with knowledge. He has tremendous upside but he has also been part of breedings that have had extreme aggression, and inability to adequately cap drives leading to displacement behavoirs including spinning. Was a great sport producer as his record speaks for itself, but you will find that Aly Vordinsteinwald was a much better complimantary dog in producing than Asko. That is why Aly is found in so many top sport pedigrees. Hips aside which he was tremendous in, he also complimented the extreme dogs well.


Cliff, from what you and Lee have said then a *Aly vom Vordersteinwald* Daughter mated to *Asko von der Lutter* should be a good combination?

EDIT: to add what do you mean by "*behavoirs including spinning"?*


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> Pardon me, while I disagree with the kennel comment. If someone doesn't know what their dog is like because he stays in a kennel at night, they don't know dogs period. Come on, we are getting a little silly here.


If a breeder's dog stays in the house, she knows how that dog behaves in the house from day to day, with other dogs, neighbors, etc., which is important to those of us who want to raise our dogs that way.

If someone raises and trains a dog to high levels, that person knows that dog well, no matter where he sleeps. But if that person trains the dog to high levels *and* the dog sleeps in the house, she would know even more, i.e., what is the dog like to live with 24/7? Does he pace the house, or does he settle? Does he go bonkers when the doorbell rings? When people walk down the street? How is he living with other dogs in the household? These are important things for me to know, that I might not know just by looking at a pedigree.


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## Vandal

Really? Thanks for explaining all that, even though I still have the same opinion. 

I have owned LOTS of dogs over the years. I have four in the house right this minute. I knew when I brought them in what they would be like. I have never owned a working line dog that was NOT good in the house. Of course, there are some things I didn't know. Like for example, when I first brought Ikon in, he wanted to sleep so close to me on the bed, I was forced to inhale dog breath for the first couple of hours because he just had to watch me sleeping. Now, he still wants to sleep close but is not as bad. Jinx thinks my shoes belong on the bed.....stuff like that. What I already knew about their temperament has not changed ONE BIT after watching them in the house.

If a dog is going to pace in the house, you will see that behavior elsewhere. If they are protective of the property, they are, they should not be more so or less so in the house. 

The point remains, the house is not telling a person who knows their dogs much of anything. Makes people feel good to hear that maybe but it is not the case.


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## Vandal

I have changed my mind about what I just said. I even had a clue that Ikon would be like that because of what he is like the rest of the time and in training. So, while I did not know the exact behavior I would see, it fits right in with what I already knew about him. 

By all means, believe what you want though. I am just saying that all behaviors are related and you will see the same behaviors, in different degrees, in all situations.


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## Vandal

I am looking forward to the Aly/Asko explanation because I personally, do not agree that is a good combo or one I would look to offset Asko. That's just from the dogs I have seen, worked and owned with Aly in there....and Asko.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> The point remains, the house is not telling a person who knows their dogs much of anything.


It may not tell the owner much, if they already know their dog, but it tells ME, puppy buyer and non-expert, what to expect. I don't know enough about bloodlines to know which will make good housedogs. If I go to a breeder's place and see a bunch of dogs behaving well in the house, it tells ME something... even though it may not tell the breeder much she doesn't already know. 

I don't mean to imply that people who don't keep their dogs in the house don't know their dogs. Most people training their dogs to a high level will know more about their dogs, regardless of where they sleep, than the average pet owner with a housedog.


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## carmspack

I was really puzzled by the Aly recommendation myself --

I would spend more time understanding people and the dynamics between them and the dog "the handler gets the dog they deserve?" A bunch of well behaved dogs in the house may mean the dogs have zippo drives -- . If the bloodlines tell you solid temperament, good thresholds , they do not have to live in a house to discover that or difficiencies. 
The shepherds from which our breed was created were not house living dogs. von Stephanitz would probably spit at the idea. He hated "soft living" and evidence of soft living which included mental degeneration -- those were the ideas of the time . The dogs lived in lean to sheds , or out under the skies in all weather . Being super baby pampered tells you little -- .


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> If the bloodlines tell you solid temperament, good thresholds , they do not have to live in a house to discover that or difficiencies.


Yes, if you know bloodlines! I do not, so I only have to go on either a) what I see; b) what I am told, or c) all of the above. If it was a breeder whose knowledge, experience, and judgment I trusted, I would not necessarily need to see the dogs living in the house. But when buying a GSD pup I want to make sure it's a good match for me, and part of that is being able to live with the dog. 



> The shepherds from which our breed was created were not house living dogs. von Stephanitz would probably spit at the idea. He hated "soft living" and evidence of soft living which included mental degeneration -- those were the ideas of the time . The dogs lived in lean to sheds , or out under the skies in all weather . Being super baby pampered tells you little -- .


Indeed, our dogs are spoiled nowadays.  

I didn't mean to give the impression that I am anti-kennel or anti-outdoors. My Akbash dog lives with the goats 24/7 and never comes in the house; I love him dearly, and he is a working dog, not a housepet. Living outdoors doing livestock guard duty is what the breed is meant for, and I'd never have gotten such a dog expecting to make a housepet out of him.


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## lhczth

Carmen, your last paragraph is very :rofl:


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## Vandal

You can be anti-kennel if you choose. That doesn't have anything to do with what started the conversation. With all due respect, if you don't know dogs,( that's what you are saying), seeing dogs in the house isn't telling you anything. If you don't know what to look for, it doesn't matter what is in the background when you are looking.


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> genetic obedience is something that 90% of the people on the board wouldn't recognize if they saw it in front of their face. It is something that becomes apparent as you have witnessed countless examples of dogs working and can see the distinct differences in a genetically obedient dog and a well trained dog.


I will partially disagree with this.

I think, at it's most basic, genetic obedience is that thing that makes a dog able to and inclined to listen when in drive. I think almost all GSDs have some degree of this.

For a really simplified example of genetic obedience, I can point on the one hand to my Jack Russell Terrier, Ruffian, and with the other hand, to any of my GSDs. In drive, my JRT virtually can't think and can't listen. 

VISUAL AID:










But I think that the degree of GO that is being seen and selected for in recent years has decreased, thus the call for valuing and selecting for "genetic obedience" for dogs for real work -- scent work, herding, k9 work, etc. So, at the level of breeding for GO, it becomes much more complicated and important to understand what "real" (as in high levels of) genetic obedience is--and important to see the difference between a dog trained extremely well and a dog who is inclined toward GO to begin with.


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## cliffson1

Whoa Folks....I think you are misinterpreting my post!!!! My post does not say that I think that Asko/Aly is a good combination...if people got that they aren't understanding what I was trying to say. Frankly, I would not do the Asko/Aly close up thing and I have had a dog in past three years that's mother had Asko and Aly as grandparents. WHAT I was trying to say is though Asko and Aly are the two most prolific High sport producers of the past 15 years; when combined with other dogs they have to be bred with the knowledge that they are complimenting what they are bred to. And in this regard, I feel that Aly is easier to compliment with many different lines successfully than is Asko. I think Asko had some higher highs and lower lows than Aly in general. Aly has become compatible with a slew of West G lines, and has also been quite successful in many Czech pedigrees. In no way was I trying to say that the two are compatible with each other....I'm sure it is possible if the other four dogs, being the parents and grandparents mesh, but it is not a breeding that I would strive to do.JMO


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## cliffson1

@ Blackthorn...I agree with the go and drive aspect....but what also has to be factored in is since so many breeders and lines are seeking looks and drive and structure and grips, OVER genetic obedience, then it is not as easy to spot. I know many top end performance breeders that value grips and drive over genetic obedience any day of the week. Listen to them talk when they assess a dog they see, or talk about using or not using as a breeding partner. Very few breeders, imo, look for genetic obedience, or value it as high as I think it is important. But that's just me...lol.
When I say easy to spot I do not mean literally, I mean these other aspects dominate the GO, in too many cases these days, often to the point it is hard to distinguish.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> You can be anti-kennel if you choose. That doesn't have anything to do with what started the conversation. With all due respect, if you don't know dogs,( that's what you are saying), seeing dogs in the house isn't telling you anything. If you don't know what to look for, it doesn't matter what is in the background when you are looking.


I'm saying I don't know bloodlines well enough to know what to expect from a dog just by looking at the pedigree. 

All I'm saying is that my GSDs live in the house, and I want a good match for my lifestyle. When I see accomplished, titled, high-drive dogs living in the house in harmony, I can see such a dog would fit my lifestyle in at least that aspect.

However, if I trust the breeder's judgment on the bloodlines in question, you're right, it doesn't matter what's in the background. I like to see a dog with my own eyes, though I would defer to the more experienced eye of the breeder. 

I am not into competition, I'm not a breeder, my GSDs are basically companion dogs. I will probably title in AKC obedience and may pursue herding with my pup, but that's just for fun. I'm not anti-anything else, it's just the way I like to have my GSDs. 

I am a bit stumped as to why my posts are offensive, but I apologize if I've inadvertently insulted anyone.


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## Deejays_Owner

wolfstraum said:


> There are some very balancing aspects in Kway's pedigree - Aly had super super temperament and produced it, along with hips, but sometimes, the character can come from behind the parents!!! Dino's character was no secret, nor was his passing it on...also - look at his pedigree and it is easy to see why Asko was bred to an Aly daughter!
> 
> Lee





cliffson1 said:


> Lee, I agree with your post on Asko....he does have strong motherline, but he is still a dog that has to be bred to with knowledge.


Sorry Cliff, that's what it looked like you were saying 

As I have a dog with said pedigree I'm very interested.

*What is this "displacement behavoirs including spinning" you were talking about?*


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## Vandal

The way I see it, the problem nowadays is the training methods. People decide to train their dogs a certain way before they ever get the dog. They don't adjust to the dog, they train the way that makes THEM feel good and disregard the response from the dog. Lots of people have that e-collar charged and ready to go before they ever see if their SchH dog is listening. LOTS of people training have absolutely NO FEEL for animals. It has always been that way but some of the training methods/devices have helped to hide it a bit. 
Mostly, if the dog does not fit the training, he is discarded. Too bad the dogs can't fire their handlers. Add in that if you even mention the term " correction" , you are some kind of animal abuser. People immediately make the leap to "force" when that word is used. I have dogs who will not be deterred by a simple correction. The drive comes UP after the correction and they are there trying harder because they LIKE what they are doing. That desire is in their genetics just like when they see a bad guy they will bite him....no "flirt pole for a year" required. It is genetic and behavior that feeds off itself.


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## BlackthornGSD

Deejays_Owner said:


> *What is this "displacement behavoirs including spinning" you were talking about?*


You ever seen a dog get so excited while being worked by a decoy that it just starts spinning on the end of the leash--it will bark, spin, bark? Some dogs do it in the blind, too, or when you release them to get a thrown ball, they'll spin before you throw the ball. Sometimes you'll see in a dog barking for the ball or something else it can't get to. 

Some trainers don't care about this behavior and may even encourage it. Personally, I *hate* it.

Instead of focusing that drive at the target (the decoy), the dog displaces the drive into spinning (or other dogs will displace/leak vocally into whining/screaming). 

Basically, it's having a hose with the water turned on full blast. But instead of being able to direct the full force of that water, bits of water are spilling out where the hose attaches to the handle--so you're wasting all that water (drive) and making a mess in the process (dog is getting out of position in the blind, say).


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## lhczth

Cliff, you seem to know and really value the Czech dogs/lines. Can you tell me what lines are bringing genetic obedience? I have not seen as many of these dogs as you, but I have seen and trained with a fair amount of various lines and crosses and I am NOT seeing it. These dogs work for themselves, for the reward and not because of their relationship with their handlers or for their handlers. A dog that must have a ball zipping around in its face to get it to even engage with its handler that it has lived with since 8 weeks old is not what a GSD should be. The reward is so much the reason for working that anyone can take the line and work OB with the dogs. IMO, this also is not correct for the breed. I am asking this as a breeder who might want to add new blood to my WGWL who doesn't want to lose what I have.


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## lhczth

What Christine talks about is fairly mild since these displacement behaviors can also be seen in a normal non working situation. Tail chasing, spinning in the kennel, savaging (chewing on or attacking their own body) are all displacement behaviors.


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## Vandal

More modern dog terms...."Displacement behavior"....ok what is at the root of that?


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## Uniballer

Vandal said:


> More modern dog terms...."Displacement behavior"....ok what is at the root of that?


I believe this term actually comes from Freudian psychology.


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## Vandal

I am not a big "pedigree talker", I simply have my memory of dogs that I saw, worked and trained and I remember the lines they came from.

I'll simply say this. Many pedigrees now are just packed with aggression on top of sharp/ excitable, high drive dogs. Those dogs were always in the breed but maybe not bred together as often as they are nowadays. There are a number of reasons for this kind of breeding that I have mentioned before .

It was ALWAYS difficult to maintain NERVES in the GSD but in the last decades, people have gotten a little too careless or disregarded the lines known for them, for again, various reasons. I talked about this recently in another thread when I said people are breeding aggression into lines with less than solid or tested nerves. People want to talk about thresholds etc but for me, that's NERVES.

People keep breaking things down to make nerves seem less necessary. They are VERY, VERY necessary in the GSD but SchH is not requiring nerves in the same dose as it used to. If we want to use the term, it is a case where the breeding hits a certain threshold and suddenly you have dogs who are a little nuts. Too much drive, too much aggression and not near enough nerves. People need to get back to working on the nerves while there are still a few dogs who can offer them.


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> Too much drive, too much aggression and not near enough nerves. People need to get back to working on the nerves while there are still a few dogs who can offer them.


Who do you look to for good nerve? Or do you just look at the individual dogs?


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## Vandal

I always look at the individual dog. At the moment, I go to older lines that are available to me. When that is not an option anymore, I don't know where I will go. I am always looking. Like I said, there were never lots of dogs/lines for nerves and there are a lot less nowadays. 
I also think, just like genetic obedience, nerves are something you have to see, it is difficult to put in words. Nowadays, people think a friendly dog is a dog with good nerves. Or a dog who seems unafraid, when the situation is not one that would disturb an average dog anyway. Used to be SchH training, no not just the title but the training, asked a dog to withstand cumulative stress. Now, the training is all about removing stress so the dog can look happy. A dog who works happy when he is stressed, is a very good dog. I don't expect many to understand that one but I know the dogs are not seeing anything close to what they used to see.
Best GSD I have ever seen or worked was Enno vom Beilstein. He produced everything you would want to see in a GSD. Saw some very good dogs out of Bodo Lierberg, Ajax Haus Dexel, Frei Gugge, and even Quanto. 
Maybe Tom L is producing nerves...I have to see more dogs from that line before I commit to that though.


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## carmspack

lhczth said:


> Carmen, your last paragraph is very :rofl:


 
what Lisa , what? spastic, insane ? 

thanks --- 
Carmen


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## carmspack

BlackthornGSD said:


> I will partially disagree with this.
> 
> I think, at it's most basic, genetic obedience is that thing that makes a dog able to and inclined to listen when in drive. I think almost all GSDs have some degree of this.
> 
> 
> Hi ms Blackthorn , I think the terminology is much too easy to misinterpret. Manfred Heyne a respected herder and breeder used it here and there and it has picked up speed as it were. In an interview with Helmut Raiser (or letter?) it is very very clear that he is meaning characteristics specific to a breed and an INNATE ability to perform a task without conditioning or shaping or rewarding because it has been BRED IN TO THE BONE.
> 
> That kind of GSD is not common anymore because care to preserve traits has not been taken , and each generation must be tested for , phenotype and genotype , in order to make the dog valuable for breeding to preserve the trait.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

how schatzi behaves in the comfort of your house will not tell you how the dog will behave if you are taking a walk and all of a sudden an ambulance with siren goes by. 
always always select for sound nerve base -- then that will be your great "house" (family) dog and your great working dog , or competitive partner .
Look at the dog , learn "the dog" not the paper - what if I gave you a dog and gave you paper that did not belong to it -- then how would you draw conclusions --- 
You need to know dogs well enough . When a dog goes out for evaluation the papers are never looked at --- show me the dog, we'll put it through it's paces, it does well or it does not.

Sometimes the dog doesn't even have to do anything. It is eye contact, body posture, getting esoteric here but "the energy" or presence. Dogs read each other just that quickly -

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

in textbook theory "displacement activity" is actually from Konrad Lorenz and is a stress releiving , tense situation difuser , conflict about what course of action to take next , that little safe pause .

An example would be two male cats encountering each other by accident . Lots of staring , posturing spitting. They can go head on into full cat fury fighting , one can run away but the other one will chase. IF one stops and starts grooming --- a classic diffuser , the tension will be cut and they will walk away cautiously , each in different directions. 

Carmen


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## carmspack

lhczth said:


> Cliff, you seem to know and really value the Czech dogs/lines. Can you tell me what lines are bringing genetic obedience? I have not seen as many of these dogs as you, but I have seen and trained with a fair amount of various lines and crosses and I am NOT seeing it. These dogs work for themselves, for the reward and not because of their relationship with their handlers or for their handlers. A dog that must have a ball zipping around in its face to get it to even engage with its handler that it has lived with since 8 weeks old is not what a GSD should be. The reward is so much the reason for working that anyone can take the line and work OB with the dogs. IMO, this also is not correct for the breed. I am asking this as a breeder who might want to add new blood to my WGWL who doesn't want to lose what I have.


 
Cliff I am not at odds with you, but I agree with Lisa . You know that I have said either on the forum or to you in PM that many of the Czech dogs, reflecting the needs of their society , are more brute strength dogs , rather than the genetic obedience, "almost human intelligence". Do I like them. Some . I have had experience with some that were / are outstanding (when looking at the pedigree they have ddr and west german in the far background - 60's) . Some were just plain terrible -- a pup that for months could not get over walking up a set of stairs -- when my 8 week old pups fly up the stairs and leap down staircases three steps at a time. I have dogs that are really really well bred -- very hard and tough in the fight , but that
there is a sophisitication and broad universal use missing .They are simple . Definitely a specialist dog. I see Czech dogs entering police training -- some really impressive -- powerful drives , energy, courage , but shallow when it comes to working WITH , working FOR okaysky , but not with . Strict employee - not partner .

Give me a good working old lines wgwls mix with ddr 
something with haus knufken , old kirschental , racker itztal , bernd lierberg, ajax dexel x mike bungalow -- 

Said it before .

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Deejays_Owner

lhczth said:


> What Christine talks about is fairly mild since these displacement behaviors can also be seen in a normal non working situation. Tail chasing, spinning in the kennel, savaging (chewing on or attacking their own body) are all displacement behaviors.


Thanks Lisa

This is the behavior Little Ray has, maybe twice a month she will do it.
It starts with her tail then she goes to her back legs spinning on the ground attacking herself.
She sounds like one **** of a cat fight going on, she is really biting herself!!
If you yell at her she will snap-out of it, it's a very crazy thing to watch!!


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## NancyJ

Obviously you folks have far more exposure to Czech and West German dogs than do I but when I compare my Czech male who lives and breathes for me and is insanely bonded to me and works with an almost telepathic relationship with my West German female who lives only for rewards and corrections - 

I wonder if it may not sometimes just be how the die fall and the individual dog. Of course I have mentioned him before as did a lady who had him before ..... so maybe a fluke ........of course you go back and find old DDR and old herding but pretty far back.


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## GSD07

carmspack said:


> ... but shallow when it comes to working WITH , working FOR okaysky , but not with . Strict employee - not partner ....


 OMG, I actually see another person describing a dog in the same terms I do! Thank you, Carmen, you made my day and you are my favorite person 

When people ask about the temperament of my dog I tell them just that, that he works with me, but not for me. A slight difference but it summarizes our relationship which is a partnership based on trust and respect, and everything else comes from there.

Nancy, I also think sometimes that my dog is a fluke...


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## Vandal

Post his pedigree Nancy, I want to see it.


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## NancyJ

Anne

Grim van der Woude - German Shepherd Dog

I gather there may not be much to see that would indicate that (others have certainly looked at his pedigree) - whatever is old herding stuff is WAY far back from what I recall-perhaps too far to make a difference - but it is not just me who sees that in him. I have posted before so I did not want to push down that route, Like I said, perhaps a fluke


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## Vandal

Just started clicking on a number of dogs in, (I think), the fifth generation. Many old West German WLs, old East German....Haus Himpel and Baruther land.....many lines to the Lierbergs and others known for what we are talking about. So, maybe not a fluke. I didn't look at all of them, maybe later.


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## cliffson1

Again Folks, go back and read my posts....I never said that Czech dogs were known for genetic obedience....that is not their strong suit. There are some Czech lines through Car z Kostolianskej and Norbo Ben-ju, that tend to produce very biddable dogs...this was one of the things Andy Maly Vah produced. 
But Carmen, the older dogs you named are the dogs that I cut my teeth on and know they produce these traits(Bernd, Axel, Marko, Frei, old Kirschental,etc), the Czech dogs don't bring that in as a strength, but I am not a believer in lines. I strive for balance, with an eye for dogs that can do good Law Enforcement work. Dogs that can complete a 16 training academy at a high rate and learn the tasks that are presented during that time. The nature of the contact and frequency of the handler and dog, in LE; in itself develops a bond. Some may work for the handler, some work with the handler, and in scent work they can work both for handler, self, or toy. 
Many of the older West lines, DDR herding lines, and old herding lines were strong in genetic obedience. This is a given....what I was trying to say is that a dog like Aly with his more moderate genetics, has produced well with many Czech dogs to produce good working dogs. Sound in nerve with good drives.
@ Lisa, I don't look to Czech dogs to get genetic obedience in my breedings, I usually look to my DDR lines for that...but I see many many police dogs both in training and on the streets. Many Czech dogs that are exceptional value in LE as attested to by performance and their officers. I am not looking for the type of dog that can be a top competition dog in sport, nor do I breed for that, but the nature of LE work often puts the dog in a situation that they have to work in drive in a completely new environment, new circumstances, even never seen before scenarios. I look for and try to breed for dogs that can adapt quickly, strongly and often in drive at the DIRECTION of his handler. Many soft dogs can't make it, also many dogs with too much drive don't do well because they become too fixated in certain situations and can't move on to another situation. The Czech lines are like the West lines when you know them....some are harder, some are drivier, some are sharper, some have more nerviness, and some have great nerves with power. Some are very sporty these days. 
Hope I am a little clearer, I find value in my DDR female, my Czech West male, my all Czech female(with no west), because I am always looking to stay in the middle and not let no aspect (except nerve) get out of wack in what I produce.


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## carmspack

lots of ddr , west german working even west german show IF the pedigree is accurate.

when the north east corner of Germany was cut off the dogs became "ddr" by virtue of geo political isolation.

many of the lines in this pedigree are also those used in the Swedish dogs , and in the background of the Czech . At one point they ALL came from the same place. How they developed from there was a selection process finding the dogs that their society needed . 

I don't think many dogs were used for herding which brings in very complex behaviourial aspects which why it is absolutely necessary to conserve a gene pool that is honestly old heritage working herding dogs . I do NOT include modern trialing dogs in that category. It has to have a genetic foundation .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

@ Carmen, you don't think I see the difference in my old Marko vom Cellerland son, my Meik vd Peltztierferm daughter, and Enno v Antreftal/Xitta Kirschental male, with the Asko/ Aly/ Yoschy progeny of today???Lol....C'mon!!! Or just happen to own a DDR female that is 3-4,5 on Held and another one that is 3-4 on Alf vom Kornersee?????


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## carmspack

Cliff , good post. I know that anything you do is done with deep respect. Just remember to keep that balance in the breed you need to play with four founding regional dogs . If you only look at "border patrol" or police function your breeding will loose balance and some of the incredible versatility and dog as an extension of self in working will be lost -- . Those qualities are what separates the german shepherd from the malinois and from the dutch shepherd . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

Cliff the lines you mention are what populate all my pedigrees.


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## cliffson1

Carmen, your point about the regions is well taken....and is why my 2 year old DDR female who is a natural in herding, will fit in well with my stock....instead of getting a super hard, super grip female, that will only take the pups out of balance, with some of my males.


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> Those qualities are what separates the german shepherd from the malinois and from the dutch shepherd .


And how many Malinois or Dutch shepherds have you ever owned or handled? :smirk:


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## carmspack

Fast , not only will I answer this , I will also get you the chapter and page of the biting and jumping von Stephanitz (loose) quote . Just hold on till I get my book back --. In the meantime the answer to your immediate question is zero . But I have helped bring some malinois to a work ready state, have been surrounded by them in French ring , and have had a few Dutch shepherds come for training with our schutzhund club .
I also travelled throughout europe so had a good look at them in their home environment.

Not a single discussion is about either of these two breeds. The discussion is what sets the GSD apart . The GSD having versatility and a history and genetic balances that these breeds do not share.

A very very big difference is that the GSD is hugely popular and that brings in problems. Every body is tinkering away at breeding them , hobby , back yard, for better or worse. 

So once you get your von Stephanitz book verification that should satisfy you. When I offer something it is not creative writing . That would be disrespectful to the trust that people have in me . I do not back away from a challenge . 

So what have you done with GSD ?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

I mentioned some of the reasons that we are washing German Shepherds out of Police training.(Which is increasing the use of Mals)
Of course everyone knows softness is a major cause. But there are also many instances of GS that have adequate drives and decent nerve, but lack courage and the ability to go civil. These dogs tend to be workingline dogs that when confronted with night training, training over difficult surfaces, training around fire and water, training in going into an empty building in the dark KNOWING that there is a threat there to confront them, or able to focus and follow direction when all heck is taking place; there are many dogs that don't make it. A dog with a 3/4 grip that stays strong or gets stronger as the fight escalates is preferred by handler/trainers than a full grip dog that has medium intensity or is just holding on. Lastly, the ability to focus and follow direction in a stressful NEW situation is priceless, you'd be surprised how many dogs that appear to be great when they know what to expect fall apart when the stress of the unknown appears. 
Most of this is nerve based, but there is a certain controlled recklessness that is harder to find, and also a necessity of dog and handler to work together in drive under stressful and NEW conditions that you are seeing less and less in the breed. JMO
The above things are important to me in breeding, along with the willingness of the dog to subordinate themself into the lifestyle of family or agency, which I think goes to the core of this breed's being.


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## carmspack

Cliff there is a constant elimination process .
I don't see increasing use of Mals -- just the opposite. They are not without problems in the nerve department .

No dog that is soft should even get so far as to be offered for evaluation . For this calling no dog should be working with adequate drives and decent nerve . No dog with this description should be in the pool for evaluation . 
Maybe the failing is in importer/brokers not doing their job and thoroughly testing dogs before offering them . They have the numbers to back up a dog that needs to be replaced so may be a bit less careful . 

You say controlled recklessness , that to me sounds like chaos about to errupt at any moment, when that controll is not being exerted . There are departments that have closed down units because of litigation - wrongful bites. I think a dog with great power is very much in control of himself - has that high threshold and full committment when needed . No mistakes, no compromise.

The bread and butter of k9 use is not the take down , but the finding of the person and controlling the situation . 

You can't and shouldn't use a Mal as a template for the breeding of a GSD.


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## cliffson1

Controlled recklessness, is the dog that confronted with a new situation like being sent into a crawl space, or across a rickety bridge, or any unknown situation, is willing to engage and perform upon the command of the handler. Does not need to be encouraged, is ready and fires out on command. Maybe my language doesn't convey my thoughts, but it has nothing to do with the dog being reckless but more to do with the dog being ever willing. 
As for Mals, the reality is they are being used more, in many instances, especially in urban areas. Whether they are ideal or not, in many cases they are functional and the pool of candidates from the GS world is not as plentiful as in years past. This is what I am experiencing in the Phila/NY/NJ area.


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## carmspack

Cliff that is just plain confidence. The wording you gave sounded more like a dog who had difficulties in capping .

I have an 8 week old female. First time she encountered a set of stairs -- 12 plus a landing area , she followed me up , no coaxing (I don't do that -- I go , they follow) . Same with coming back into the house for the evening -- goes to head of stairs , points her nose and goes down the steps --- not a noise from her !!! no squealing or whining.

Had them out in a thunderstorm on Sunday -- in a pen , while my visitors and I were out under the porch roof observing them and others . They just went about their business sniffing the new shavings I had put in . 

Just breed for good nerves .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Carmen, its a little more than nerves...I am just not explaining it well. I know Labradors that have good nerves, but I'm talking about a willingness to engage the unknown, to be enthusiatic in view of adversity. Its a subtle thing that I like to see in a LE dog. Not a big deal, difficult to define but unmistakeable when present.


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## Vandal

Fight drive.


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## lhczth

carmspack said:


> Cliff , good post. I know that anything you do is done with deep respect. Just remember to keep that balance in the breed you need to play with four founding regional dogs . If you only look at "border patrol" or police function your breeding will loose balance and some of the incredible versatility and dog as an extension of self in working will be lost -- . Those qualities are what separates the german shepherd from the malinois and from the dutch shepherd .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


As Carmen says above (another very good post, BTW) is that we must maintain balance. In focusing primarily on police function are you not specializing the same as the so called "sport" breeders? Our job as breeders should be to breed well balanced GSD and to not lose those traits that made this breed so versatile and exceptional. A dog that works for himself or for the reward is no more a GSD than the crazy Mals in GSD clothing (or the Goldens in GSD clothing). 

Cliff I asked about lines because while individual dogs may show what I want, if they are the exception rather than the rule, than they are not what I want to use in my breeding program. I don't think you can just look at the dog and must look at the genetics (his lines) that he comes from. My goals are to breed an all around balanced working GSD. I don't want to lose what I have when and if I do some breedings with dogs from lines I am not as familiar with. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> @ Carmen, you don't think I see the difference in my old Marko vom Cellerland son, my Meik vd Peltztierferm daughter, and Enno v Antreftal/Xitta Kirschental male, with the *Asko/ Aly/ Yoschy progeny of today???*Lol....C'mon!!! Or just happen to own a DDR female that is 3-4,5 on Held and another one that is 3-4 on Alf vom Kornersee?????


Even with them you can get a couple of Gems. It's like Nancy said. Sometimes it's how the dice fall. 


While I do know better, I am really happy with my Yoschie/Fero dog. I even know where her ear is coming from. Five generations back, Koerbelbach line. So I guess it shows up _occassionaly _(first time as far as I know) via that certain dog (not Gildo) and I was the lucky one to get it. However, I wouldn't trade her in for the world.


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## holland

Mrs.K said:


> Even with them you can get a couple of Gems. It's like Nancy said. Sometimes it's how the dice fall.
> 
> 
> While I do know better, I am really happy with my Yoschie/Fero dog. I even know where her ear is coming from. Five generations back, Koerbelbach line. So I guess it shows up _occassionaly _(first time as far as I know) via that certain dog (not Gildo) and I was the lucky one to get it. However, I wouldn't trade her in for the world.


 
Don't have Yoschie/Fero or an ear problem-do have an eye problem (me not the dog) I'm slightly blind -totally get your last sentence:wub:


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## carmspack

carmspack badger , who dives under water , full body , to retrieve, no collar , no leash , all positive training , engages with handler and is highly responsive -- tested under gun fire , tested for long tracks, tested for man aggression (bites like an alligator) -- yet here he is giving his full obedience willingly and happily to a young girl -- who is a family member but not his trainer -- 



 
general disposition athletic ability working with yappy dog nearby and never losing connection to handler or being distracted from getting his ball 



 
Plus I think the conformation is good (fronts) -- firm body , healthy dog , no digestive issues, allergies -- raw fed 
Badger's brother TD dog Blast http://birchbarkhill.blogspot.com/2011/08/blasts-track-from-tuesday.html ready for urban track 
Gage , 4 months , bred to hunt / search , here is his first cone 
he needed no motivation , has strong hunt for his ball no matter where it is , even finding it if left out somewhere over night . 
Gage - YouTube

female in training -- Elle-Kira , 8 months Birch-Bark Hill: 8/7/11 - 8/14/11

These dogs can't suppress their genetics . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

holland said:


> Don't have Yoschie/Fero or an ear problem-do have an eye problem (me not the dog) I'm slightly blind -totally get your last sentence:wub:


You are? I didn't know that. Need glasses myself but I have stigmatism. Can get away without glasses but if I want to see the world in "high-def" I need them. 

Yah, the ear is standing and that is all that matters. It seems to get better though. It's interesting that it's coming from the Koerbelbach line. Mirko vom Körbelbach - working-dog.eu

However, I don't think of it as that big of a deal. The entire success of that kennel has shown that even with a couple of weaknesses you can produce over the top dogs. If it's something that only shows up every five/six/seven generations and the dog has everything else it takes to produce another generation of good dogs, why not using it. 

Even though I was thinking about it. I am not sure if I would breed. I think it's much easier to remain a handler and get my dogs from an already established kennel.


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## BlackthornGSD

That's interesting that you say the ear issue comes from Mirko. My first working female was a Mythus Koerbelbach daughter and she had large, slightly thin ears with a wide earset. 










I bred her son to a Yoschy granddaughter with small, thick ears and that has pretty much fixed the ears in subsequent generations (so far!!!). Of course, there are a lot of other dogs in the pedigree playing a role, too.


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## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> That's interesting that you say the ear issue comes from Mirko. My first working female was a Mythus Koerbelbach daughter and she had large, slightly thin ears with a wide earset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bred her son to a Yoschy granddaughter with small, thick ears and that has pretty much fixed the ears in subsequent generations (so far!!!). Of course, there are a lot of other dogs in the pedigree playing a role, too.


Interesting, very interesting. They are brothers. Even though I've never seen any other problems via Umsa. Who knows where it's truly coming from. But very interesting since they are brothers. The problem should be solved with thick, small ears, however that doesn't mean that it can't show up occassionally. Now, if every dog would show that issue, it'd be different, right? 

But I guess we are getting off topic. LOL Well, at least it's about genetics.


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## BlackthornGSD

Mrs.K said:


> Interesting, very interesting. They are brothers. Even though I've never seen any other problems via Umsa. Who knows where it's truly coming from. But very interesting since they are brothers. The problem should be solved with thick, small ears, however that doesn't mean that it can't show up occassionally. Now, if every dog would show that issue, it'd be different, right?
> 
> But I guess we are getting off topic. LOL Well, at least it's about genetics.


let me correct myself--Frost was a Mythus granddaughter, not daughter.


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## holland

I was sort of joking about the blind thing-you know kennel blind-the ear thing probably just adds character


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## Vandal

> Even though I've never seen any other problems via Umsa.


Teeth


----------



## Mrs.K

holland said:


> I was sort of joking about the blind thing-you know kennel blind-the ear thing probably just adds character


Ah, yes, yes, it does. As long as you are not kennel blind, it's allright, I guess 











@Vandal: you could be right. I believe that some had problems with missing canines. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> In the meantime the answer to your immediate question is zero . But I have helped bring some malinois to a work ready state, have been surrounded by them in French ring , and have had a few Dutch shepherds come for training with our schutzhund club .
> I also travelled throughout europe so had a good look at them in their home environment.
> 
> Not a single discussion is about either of these two breeds. The discussion is what sets the GSD apart .


 So you have been around several Malinois. Would a person that has been around several GSD be able to accurately see and understand the subtleties of the breed? For instance "genetic obedience", here you are explaining this to GSD owners and trainers. Why do you have to explain? Most have more experience with GSDs than you have with Malinois. They don't understand the true GSD, but somehow *you* have a clue about the Malinois? The reason you have to explain is, just because you have a little experience with a breed doesn't mean that you have a deep understanding of the breed. So how can you, with very little experience with Malinois, know that they lack "genetic obedience"? Don't you think that it would take a lot of experience and understanding of the breed to know this, just like it takes a lot of experience and understanding to understand "genetic obedience" in the GSD? Do you see how that might look more than a little hypocritical?




We can hash out the rest of this on the other thread so this thread can stay on topic.


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## cliffson1

Lisa, 
I sent you a pm. I currently own two DDR dogs, two Czech/West dogs, and an all Czech female. The reason I own these is there are strengths in all of these lines that I need to "balance" out what I am doing. BTW, I don't breed for Police dogs, but I do breed dogs in which I expect some of the litter to be able to do LE work. 
Look folks, I don't really care what anybody breeds and what they are breeding for....like Czech dogs, don't like Czech dogs, like showlines/don't like showlines,etc......all I can do is stand by what I produce based on what I know....its up to the GS community to judge the quality of my thinking by my dogs


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> Most of this is nerve based, but there is a certain controlled recklessness that is harder to find...


I think I know what your talking about. In jest I call it "Thrill Drive". I think that some dogs get a great deal of satisfaction by scaring themselves. They get off on the thrill just like we do on a roller coaster. 

I also think that it has something to do with the dog's general nature. For example, a puppy sees a strange object on the street one day that spooks him. Some puppies will balk and try to move away from the object. But the thrill seeking pups runs past the object. He maybe even gives a little growl as he goes past. Then there is the third option of the puppy that just freezes when he first sees the object then gets myopic and pretends that he dosen't see it any longer and walks calmly by. IMO, it's this third type of dog that is the type that too many GSD breeders were concentrating on. They created dogs that lacked reactivity. You take that and combine it with training that is not right for most GSDs and you get the kind of dog you are talking about. They grip; they don't bite.


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## onyx'girl

What about the dog that goes by it interested, but decides it isn't worth his time or worry...That would be the one I would want beside me. 
I wouldn't want the growler because it IMO shows some cockiness and usually cockiness comes from lack of confidence.
Thrill seekers usually end up getting hurt at some point in their life, not sure that is because of lack of intelligence or common sense.


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## cliffson1

@ fast....I think you will find all three of the examples you gave in a good German Shepherd litter. That is because the breed is made up of a mixture of herding/protection dogs. 
For patrol dogs this type of dog with a good handler can be very effective....willing to engage the unknown without second thought. 
@ Jane, I understand your thought process, I think the difference is Fast's example is dealing with puppies. When a dog has completed training and is on the streets, I want to see a dog that reacts to his handler and the situation in a controlled way. SOMETIMES, I need to see that dog geared up ready to wreck havoc, and other times I expect that dog to be cool and calm. But there are many examples of the breed today that CAN'T rise to that occaison of high reactivity desired by the handler at that particular point. Some stay cool and calm no matter what....given a choice I would rather have the dog that can go from one to the other....just me.
And please, I'm not talking about fear based traits, rather supreme confidence and fight drive!!


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> @ fast....I think you will find all three of the examples you gave in a good German Shepherd litter. That is because the breed is made up of a mixture of herding/protection dogs.
> For patrol dogs this type of dog with a good handler can be very effective....willing to engage the unknown without second thought.
> @ Jane, I understand your thought process, I think the difference is Fast's example is dealing with puppies. When a dog has completed training and is on the streets, I want to see a dog that reacts to his handler and the situation in a controlled way. SOMETIMES, I need to see that dog geared up ready to wreck havoc, and other times I expect that dog to be cool and calm. But there are many examples of the breed today that CAN'T rise to that occaison of high reactivity desired by the handler at that particular point. *Some stay cool and calm no matter what....given a choice I would rather have the dog that can go from one to the other....just me.
> And please, I'm not talking about fear based traits, rather supreme confidence and fight drive!!*


My father said the very same thing. Furthermore he was talking about how people turn their dogs into dumb creatures by overusing the prey drive. That the dog is dumb enough to go for the sleeve instead of the helper and that the dogs ultimately lack fight drive and just want the prey without actually thinking.


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## Vandal

> They created dogs that lacked reactivity. You take that and combine it with training that is not right for most GSDs and you get the kind of dog you are talking about. *They grip; they don't bite*.


Lets talk about this. I have had different opinions over the years but the question is, which is correct for a GSD? Also, is Fast saying that a grip is always weaker than a bite? Maybe you can state more clearly what your meaning is.

What should a GSD be doing and does it vary with the situation?


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## Vandal

Mrs K,.... soft teeth.


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## onyx'girl

> I think the difference is Fast's example is dealing with puppies. When a dog has completed training and is on the streets, I want to see a dog that reacts to his handler and the situation in a controlled way. SOMETIMES, I need to see that dog geared up ready to wreck havoc, and other times I expect that dog to be cool and calm. But there are many examples of the breed today that CAN'T rise to that occaison of high reactivity desired by the handler at that particular point. Some stay cool and calm no matter what....given a choice I would rather have
> the dog that can go from one to the other....just me.


Of course after training and on the ' street' the dog should react accordingly, but a young green dog with no training, I'd want to be more aloof, and have a bit higher threshold with confidence showing. I have 3 and all are different as Fast decribed above> the shy one, the reactive one and a dog that is an observant thinker. I'd rather have the observant one by my side~I think this comes from the heart of the dog, not the training that was instilled.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Mrs K,.... soft teeth.


thats a new one. What do you mean by soft teeth? That they break easily?


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## onyx'girl

Mrs.K said:


> thats a new one. What do you mean by soft teeth? That they break easily?


wear down


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## carmspack

Fast, the Malinois have to be true to THEIR genetic obedience , 

Carmen


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## Fast

onyx'girl said:


> What about the dog that goes by it interested, but decides it isn't worth his time or worry..


That's a whole different thing. I'm talking about when a dog spooks. And a dog that never spooks is not a good working dog prospect in my book.


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## Fast

Vandal said:


> Also, is Fast saying that a grip is always weaker than a bite? Maybe you can state more clearly what your meaning is.


It's about the dog's intent. There are dogs that grip the sleeve and there are those that are biting the helper and the sleeve protects him.


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## Fast

onyx'girl said:


> I'd rather have the observant one by my side~I think this comes from the heart of the dog, not the training that was instilled.


That's great and that might be the right kind of dog for you. But if I wanted a a high level sport dog or a real life working dog I would take a more reactive dog. I need a dog that reacts right now.


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## onyx'girl

Fast said:


> That's great and that might be the right kind of dog for you. But if I wanted a a high level sport dog or a real life working dog I would take a more reactive dog. I need a dog that reacts right now.


you are talking about walking by an object... I agree, a dog should alert when needed, but not just because it isn't familiar with something. I prefer a bit higher threshold, let the dog do some discernment before reacting.


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## Fast

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, a dog should alert when needed, but not just because it isn't familiar with something.


But the problem is that too many GSDs will not react without a lot of stimulation. 

And a dog should react when unfamiliar things are going on around it. For instance, it is perfectly normal if a young dog alerts on a handicapped person. Just think about it from the dog's POV. Here comes this oddly shaped person flinching and stumbling across the road, coming right at you with a stick (cane). He should keep his eye on that guy, IMO. When you see your friend with MS coming you smile, wave and greet him with a hug. Here is where I think "genetic obedience" comes into the equation. What does the dog do next?


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## onyx'girl

He should defer to the handler, no question. Your tone of voice and body language is key in how your dog should react.


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## Fast

It's really interesting to hear the opinions about herding on this thread. I'm curious, do any of you do herding with your dogs? Real life or competition? How can you breed for something if you are not testing for it?

How far back in your dog's pedigree is there a dog that was a real life herding dog? I'm talking about a dog owned by a real shepherd. Any post WW2?


----------



## Freestep

Fast said:


> But if I wanted a a high level sport dog or a real life working dog I would take a more reactive dog. I need a dog that reacts right now.


Does this "reactivity" mean low thresholds? 

Dogs with good nerve tend to have higher thresholds, yes? So how do you know if a dog has strong nerve AND low thresholds?


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## Freestep

Fast said:


> But the problem is that too many GSDs will not react without a lot of stimulation.


Where are all these non-reactive GSDs? One of the most common things I've seen with BYB GSDs is their reactivity and low thresholds... I think it would be a refreshing problem to see one that was too calm and relaxed to react without a lot of stimulation.


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## Vandal

I'm not sure we are talking about "reactivity" here. But frankly, I don't give a rats arsh what you call it. 

Still not clear about your bite/grip comparison. If you want to talk about herding dogs there should be a grip, that does less damage to the sheep. At the same time, dogs with that kind of "grip" can stop a man pretty darn fast. I was just talking about this the other day, when I was working one of my dogs. I would say he has a big, full, hard grip. Every helper who works him, the second he comes on the sleeve, they hesitate and make an immediate comment about the power and the grip. That grip is even stopping people wearing a sleeve, because they are so impressed by it. We are talking SchH helpers who usually just ignore what the dogs are doing and carry them around like a suitcase.

I have worked dogs with grips like that. The feeling you get when you work a dog like that is one of being controlled. So, what is the difference if it is a bite or a grip on a bare arm or body part if the result is the same? The idea is to get the bad guy or the sheep to submit and I would imagine it would be advantageous to not do too much damage to the bad guy, since we have to pay to sew them back together again. If the bad guy resists, the dog escalates, bites harder or counters until they submit. 

Their are behaviors associated with herding dogs. You can still see them in some dogs. I worked dogs years ago who were very closely related to herding dogs. Enno's motherline was loaded with them and yes, they were "real" herding dogs.


----------



## onyx'girl

I don't think a GSD that is "too calm and relaxed to react" is refreshing. There should be balance! 
I see dogs with lower thresholds that have strong nerve and are very biddable to the handler. 
They recover easily and aren't phased by pressure put on them. But they seem to be more prey driven than active aggression when doing protection, their focus is not a multi-tasking type...
so in the zone, that what is going on around them is not in their realm.
I think a dog of higher threshold is more aware of the surroundings to the point that they are suspicious, so they don't focus on one task as well(tracking for example) due to this...but they also don't react easily. Not sure if this make sense.


----------



## Samba

I don't know if I can answer this correctly at all. But, I think perhaps my dog has something of decent nerves and still some reactivity. He is relatively quick to spark and fires up fast, but he is still controllable and obedient in the midst of that. If told to stand down he does and will de-escalate quickly also. He is itching for a fight if someone brings threat but it is over when its over.


----------



## Vandal

> Originally Posted by Fast
> _But if I wanted a a high level sport dog or a real life working dog I would take a more reactive dog. I need a dog that reacts right now._


I don't really think this is the case at all. I have some dogs that have to be more "impressed" by the helper and then I have some that just need to see you and that's all it takes. Mostly, what I see is helpers who are only capable of working one side of the dog. They are either chickens with no "intent" of their own, or they rely way too much on their presence. Doing either/or will not load the dog where he needs to be. You have to do both. That means, after you disturb the dog a bit you might have to run. Lots of people don't want to put in that effort and the dogs go to sleep.

The more serious dogs need to see the prey work or you make them reactive. That word means they wait until someone does something, like say pop a whip, before they will load. Not an ideal behavior in protection, if you ask me.


----------



## Fast

Vandal said:


> If you want to talk about herding dogs there should be a grip, that does less damage to the sheep.


Nope I don't want to talk about, I want to learn about it.

Tell me about *your* herding dog. Tell me about how it grips sheep vs how it bites a sleeve.


----------



## wolfstraum

Vandal said:


> Pardon me, while I disagree with the kennel comment. If someone doesn't know what their dog is like because he stays in a kennel at night, they don't know dogs period. Come on, we are getting a little silly here. I guess I could say if you bring your dog inside and put them in a crate, there is a temperament problem also. I am not sure what Lee meant there, maybe she can explain but like I said, if you know dogs, you know dogs, no matter where they sleep at night. Might be a case of people buying a dog from Europe without asking about temperament because they DON'T KNOW DOGS but again, the kennel doesn't tell the whole story. If someone told me they knew their dogs better because they stayed in the house all the time, I would run, not walk away. I expect people to understand a bit more than that but that's just me.


 
Not meant this way at all.

I was thinking more about dogs who are "busy", won't settle in the house, are not socially stable....the dogs live in the kennel, get trained, and go back to live in the kennel...so calmness and social graces are not always priorities with people who are looking more to a competition dog than a companion dog to play at training with....the theory that a dog who lives in a kennel will work for you more readily is more common among European trainers.

The majority of people on this board want a companion dog whom they can train. This was context of my response.

Lee


----------



## Vandal

> Nope I don't want to talk about, I want to learn about it.
> 
> Tell me about *your* herding dog. Tell me about how it grips sheep vs how it bites a sleeve.


You can't learn by just talking, I will have to show you. Bring your brown dog and we will see if he has "genetic obedience".


----------



## Fast

Vandal said:


> I'm not sure we are talking about "reactivity" here. But frankly, I don't give a rats arsh what you call it.
> 
> Still not clear about your bite/grip comparison. If you want to talk about herding dogs there should be a grip, that does less damage to the sheep. At the same time, dogs with that kind of "grip" can stop a man pretty darn fast. I was just talking about this the other day, when I was working one of my dogs. I would say he has a big, full, hard grip. Every helper who works him, the second he comes on the sleeve, they hesitate and make an immediate comment about the power and the grip. That grip is even stopping people wearing a sleeve, because they are so impressed by it. We are talking SchH helpers who usually just ignore what the dogs are doing and carry them around like a suitcase.
> 
> I have worked dogs with grips like that. The feeling you get when you work a dog like that is one of being controlled. So, what is the difference if it is a bite or a grip on a bare arm or body part if the result is the same? The idea is to get the bad guy or the sheep to submit and I would imagine it would be advantageous to not do too much damage to the bad guy, since we have to pay to sew them back together again. If the bad guy resists, the dog escalates, bites harder or counters until they submit.
> 
> Their are behaviors associated with herding dogs. You can still see them in some dogs. I worked dogs years ago who were very closely related to herding dogs. Enno's motherline was loaded with them and yes, they were "real" herding dogs.


Anne, when a dog grips a sheep it has no intent to harm the sheep just control the sheep. When the dog has intent to harm he is biting. That's all I have to say on the matter.


----------



## Vandal

WHAT? There is something that shuts you up? WOW.....!


----------



## Samba

Well, the sheep have never commented about my dog's grip, so hard to compare to what a helper says. But, it is best full and calm so as not to bugger the sheep up. 

When herding, my dog often grabbed a naughty sheep at the shoulder and pushed it down to the ground. Interestingly, without sleeve training, and shown the helpers's back my dogs often launch high on the shoulder to take the person down. Often wondered if that did not come from herding genetics.

I am not sure my dog does not intend to put a hurt on that bad sheeps. She really gets mad with sheep misbehavior.


----------



## Vandal

> If the bad guy resists, the dog escalates, bites harder or counters until they submit.


A GSD should escalate and that IS a case of moving from control to "harm" if you want to call it that. ...and no, that doesn't mean the dog starts off with no power, quite the contrary.


----------



## Fast

Vandal said:


> You can't learn by just talking, I will have to show you. Bring your brown dog and we will see if he has "genetic obedience".



Can I bring my bi-color too? How about we meet at the sheep herding spot and we *both* pull out our dogs herd some sheep? 

Name the time and place. When the tailgate drops......


----------



## Vandal

Ok, there is a guy that runs about 300 sheep up here. Not here now but as soon as I see him, I will drop you a line. 

They are making those Mals in all kinds of colors now. Bi color...who would have thought!


----------



## Fast

Vandal said:


> Ok, there is a guy that runs about 300 sheep up here. Not here now but as soon as I see him, I will drop you a line.
> 
> They are making those Mals in all kinds of colors now. Bi color...who would have thought!


Sorry to disappoint but no bicolor Malinois at my house. 

I'll be waiting for that line to drop.


----------



## holland

Vandal said:


> WHAT? There is something that shuts you up? WOW.....!


 
LOL ...Excellent post Ann!!!


----------



## Vandal

Well...there is a place in Lake View Terrace....I will ask about that but I think you have to pay to play with the sheeps. Since you laid down the challenge, you have to pay my way. Them's the rules.


----------



## onyx'girl

Since this thread has gone off topic


> Still not clear about your bite/grip comparison. If you want to talk about herding dogs there should be a grip, that does less damage to the sheep. At the same time, dogs with that kind of "grip" can stop a man pretty darn fast. I was just talking about this the other day, when I was working one of my dogs. I would say he has a big, full, hard grip. Every helper who works him, the second he comes on the sleeve, they hesitate and make an immediate comment about the power and the grip. That grip is even stopping people wearing a sleeve, because they are so impressed by it. We are talking SchH helpers who usually just ignore what the dogs are doing and carry them around like a suitcase.
> 
> I have worked dogs with grips like that. The feeling you get when you work a dog like that is one of being controlled. So, what is the difference if it is a bite or a grip on a bare arm or body part if the result is the same? The idea is to get the bad guy or the sheep to submit and I would imagine it would be advantageous to not do too much damage to the bad guy, since we have to pay to sew them back together again. If the bad guy resists, the dog escalates, bites harder or counters until they submit.


 My TD/Helper has a Mal that is barely 60# but will twist the helper in such a way that the sleeve/arm is around the helpers back. The dog can control him that way. Until said helper figures out his tricks, the dog is in control. Though(TD/helper= handler) will forwarn the helper that is working the dog of his style, for the safety of both when training. 
I think targeting a sleeve is one thing, but the way the dog will move once on it can help him gain control. 
Suit work, where is the best place to target? We train for the armpit.


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## Vandal

I'm not the one to ask about that. I prefer dogs who fight in the front, not in the back of the helper. Not really interested to argue over that opinion either,( because I have already done that here), I just know what I see in the dogs that do one or the other. For me, the dog who stays in front to fight, is the better dog. Of course, if you have a helper who just constantly overpowers your dog, or some moron beats them over the head with a stick, most dogs will look for relief and pull behind the helper.

I think the dog who goes high on the body naturally, is the better dog. Doesn't have to be the armpit, just that I feel a dog who bites higher on the suit is a more confident dog. Just my opinion.


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## Deejays_Owner

wolfstraum said:


> The majority of people on this board want a companion dog whom they can train. This was context of my response.
> 
> Lee


Lee

Is this not what you breed for?


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## lhczth

> I think the dog who goes high on the body naturally, is the better dog. Doesn't have to be the armpit, just that I feel a dog who bites higher on the suit is a more confident dog. Just my opinion.


Agree with Anne.


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## Samba

We would love some video of the herding throw down!


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## holland

...somehow I don't think we should hold our breath for that


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## Mrs.K

Deejays_Owner said:


> Lee
> 
> Is this not what you breed for?


Deejays_Owner: 

What many of todays handlers don't understand, and I can see that everytime on the forum (you need to give him a job, you need to give him a job, he's bored, give him a job) is that people don't understand that the GSD has to have the possibility to adapt to situations. He has got to be able to go from a working home, to a pet home and vice versa. 

Even without a real job, just basic obedience, the GSD shouldn't have any issues to live in a pet home. As long as he gets adequate exercise, like walks, bike riding or hikes (which has nothing to do with working a dog, it's exercise that EVERY pet home should be capable of providing a dog with) a GSD should be able to live a happy life. 

You want hard, yet balanced dogs, capable of living in a working and pet home.


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## Deejays_Owner

Mrs. K
3 years ago I was looking for a pup for my 15 year old daughter that wanted to get into Competitive Obedience.
I let her show train my Highline male, the summer before & they even took a 1st @ the Canadian Sieger Show.
But she wanted to get into doing Competitive Obedience.
I wanted to stack the deck in her favor, so a working-line pup would seem to be the way to go.
As for all accounts on here my Highline is not a typical German Show dog!
A very Balanced Dog drive/temperament a true natural, go figure.
To having my daughter in tears many times, having top trainers tell us the pup's head in not screwed on right.
Fighting with my Daughter that we can't give up on her she has to just work hard. 
To find out her Working Pedigree, full of the "*Top BSP dogs*", are not a good combo.
And *extreme behavioral problems* are not uncommon with this type of Pedigree!!


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## Samba

Interesting. I don't know the details on your daughter's pup. I do know a long coated, black Kway daughter myself. The dam side different , of course. She is an interesting dog. Not like any German Shepherds I know. Extreme prey and oddly distractable, yet intense.


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## lhczth

Brian, even in the best breedings things can go wrong, genes don't always combine the way we expect them to. That is the nature of the beast and why buying puppies is such a crap shoot. I can empathize with you because I have been in your and your daughter's position before. It sucks!!


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## Samba

It is a crap shoot. Breeding is learning many times. I have gotten dogs that did not turn out for the particular endeavor I got them for...more than once. Some had a real glitch that hampered things a good deal. I did learn a lot from them though. 

I have a pup from a BSP loaded pedigree. May be the best dog I have ever owned.


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## cliffson1

And a dog loaded with BSP dogs means no more than a dog with all VA dogs is going to be super in structure. There are many many people out there breeding titles and don't have a clue as to the merging of the genetics they are putting together. Not to say this breeder was, but the pedigree filled with BSP titles means nothing to me.


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## Deejays_Owner

Samba said:


> Not like any German Shepherds I know. Extreme prey and oddly distractable, yet intense.


*That pretty much nails it!!*

Extreme prey, like birds & insects.
Has gone over the deck after birds before.
If she finds a fly in the house she will get it!!

But she is very sweet too, and settles in the house well.
We try to keep her busy, gets very intense for balls.
Can walk down the street with people & dogs walking by.
As long as they don't get into her face.


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## Samba

Cliff-- I was saying the BSPness of the pedigree is neither an endorsement nor a condemnation of a breeding. In the end, actual dogs were bred, not titles.


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## cliffson1

I agree Samba, I'm just reflecting on the owners post reflecting the pedigree is filled with BSP dogs equates to an expectation that the dog should not have been what it was.


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## Mrs.K

That is because to a lot of Americans, a championship title is more important than the actual dog. It's always been like that and it'll stay like that if people don't start to re-arrange their priorities in what they want. Do they want a champion in the line or do they want the better dog. Because we all know, a champion title doesn't mean squat if the dog doesn't pass on the genes, was a made dog or won because of his handler or the kennel name, or his exterieur, or even because he's got the favorite color...


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## Deejays_Owner

wolfstraum said:


> The majority of people on this board want a companion dog whom they can train.
> Lee


Cliff

So were do people turn, It is a crap shoot


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## NancyJ

I don't know that it is that much of a crap shoot. 

I am certainly looking 6 mos and up for a working dog prospect for cadaver work but I am focusing on people known to produce dogs for scentwork and police service work who also have an appreciation of and breed for genetic obedience. And I have pestered more people who have their dogs than I care to admit. And more people who know the pedigrees. All those criteria have narrowed my pool GREATLY after about a year of looking. To me, a lot of dogs bred with competion in mind are not necessarily bred for what I want. My current dog is a SOLID working dog but probably would not be very flashy in a sport venue (or even obedience because he is just - obedient - and not particularly flashy about it).

Of course ANY puppy is somewhat of a crap shoot in many regards.


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## carmspack

it's not so much a crap shoot .

there are many closed in house breeding programmes that have very high ratios of dogs successful in what they have chosen to breed.

that includes several dedicated seeing-eye/ guide dog / leader dog programmes, it includes the rcmp breeding programme, the metro politan London police breeding programme, a line of dogs (gsd) bred for Swedish police, and even Pohranicni Straze.

the common denominator with all these groups was that they use and develop and fine tune many generations of dogs which they are thoroughly familiar with - breeders here just do not do this . 
They buy a "hot" line and breed it to a female that they have bought from another very popular current line -- loaded with Ch's or V's or BSP and breed it to a similar paperwork.

This is the working dogs I am speaking of . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## holland

I am really confused-what was a crap shoot-you have a dog -thats what you thought you were getting right???? On the one hand you are bragging that she has the famous Asko vom Lutter in her pedigree and on the other you are complaining about something and I am not quite sure what -If it all really upsets you just an FYI you can go to a shelter and for $20 I got I think it was an American line dog who did nice obedience-never could brag about her pedigree though-


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## Mrs.K

I watched the videos. Your daughter is quite a good handler and the dog is gorgeous. I think both are actually doing very well.


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## wolfstraum

Mrs.K said:


> Deejays_Owner:
> 
> What many of todays handlers don't understand, and I can see that everytime on the forum (you need to give him a job, you need to give him a job, he's bored, give him a job) is that people don't understand that the GSD has to have the possibility to adapt to situations. He has got to be able to go from a working home, to a pet home and vice versa.
> 
> Even without a real job, just basic obedience, the GSD shouldn't have any issues to live in a pet home. As long as he gets adequate exercise, like walks, bike riding or hikes (which has nothing to do with working a dog, it's exercise that EVERY pet home should be capable of providing a dog with) a GSD should be able to live a happy life.
> 
> You want hard, yet balanced dogs, capable of living in a working and pet home.


Exactly - and YES - this IS what I breed for. Dan Cox (3x WUSV team member) has a female I raised in my home...she is titled...T Floyd has worked her and told Dan to compete her - LOL but 2 dogs to take to top level takes more time than most people with a job and family can devote at that level...Furi is a family dog, heck, so is Chuck....Hexe, Sch2, lives in a home with other dogs; Fyurie and Errow (Sch2, KKL1) are family dogs and flyball champions - most of mine are in companion homes...and many of those titled - actually every single litter has a titled dog (I will be in Sept) and every one of those titled dogs lives or has lived as a pet - and I do not have a club in my yard where I sell my pups to people and train them - they are all over the US....Cairo, a VSP patrol and drug dog, when not on the job, is the constant companion and protector of his handlers 4 year old daughter...

Unfortunately, finding a pup is not much more than a popularity contest and references freely and adamantly given by people who do not have any experience in the breed, have a beloved pet, and who do not have any experience with a breeders dogs beyond their pet!!!

Lee


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## holland

A beloved pet doesn't count as an experience-gee what a shame-Can you throw out some more names there so I can be impressed


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## cliffson1

Must be slow on the chat list today.


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## Deejays_Owner

I found this quote from Cliff's Iceberg Breeders I think it speaks volumes. 



NarysDad said:


> I find while tracing lines there are often breeders of such dogs that are tight lipped when it comes to faults and only want to share the positive information on such dogs.


I just want to state that I'm not bashing the Breeder of my pup, her Dam or the Owner of her Sire.
I have great respect for both, & would buy another pup from either of them again when times comes.


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## wolfstraum

the nasty little petty peanut gallery .....sigh


there are people with pets who post about their problems - obvious nerve and temperament issues - yet still compulsively push and push and push the person they got the dog from....no matter what criteria the prospective owner states - or just people who like a website push people they don't know towards a breeder whose dogs they have never seen....


People who train competitively - who are very sucessful - and have high drive dogs keep them as beloved pets - people who understand the breed....that was the point! IMO - perhaps the peanut gallery should take a reading comprehension course and redirect their weak nerved drive into some thing constructive

Lee


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## holland

Ran out of names??


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## holland

BTW ...I'm done with the thread


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## Jack's Dad

wolfstraum said:


> the nasty little petty peanut gallery .....sigh
> 
> 
> there are people with pets who post about their problems - obvious nerve and temperament issues - yet still compulsively push and push and push the person they got the dog from....no matter what criteria the prospective owner states - or just people who like a website push people they don't know towards a breeder whose dogs they have never seen....


You mean the same ones who don't believe in any corrections for their little psychologically impaired dogs but have no problem keeping them in a crate for ten to twelve hours a day because it's a dangerous world outside.


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## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> You mean the same ones who don't believe in any corrections for their little psychologically impaired dogs but have no problem keeping them in a crate for ten to twelve hours a day because it's a dangerous world outside.


 :thumbup:

The very same people that would call animal control because you tied up your dog on the front porch while they keep their dogs crated.


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## björn

Isn´t most herdingbreeds equipped with enogh "genetic obedience" to do the work they are intended for, I guess if someone are more into breeding policedogs they may find it harder to find dogs that have a great will to please in combination with the drives and mentality needed for the work. The malinois is a breed described by many with a high trainability and will to please, in general it´s also a breed more on the softer side compared to the GSD, which can be both good and bad I suppose, especially if you goal is a high scoring sportdog.


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## cliffson1

Bjorn, I personally think your comments are on point, but I would say that people should not be breeding German Shepherds FOR police dogs. Rather, I think they should be breeding German Shepherds of which some will be capable of being a police dog. That way you still keep the balance that usually gives good does of genetic obedience that comes with the breed. Your point about high scoring sport dog is also insightful. You don't know how many times in discussion with people who are into high level sport, the handler sensitivity trait of a dog is bought up as a negative. Its like even if the dog is great at performance(supposed to be working dog), because it is handler sensitive this becomes a detriment. Why????? Other than there is a culture in high sport training these days that makes it easier for the handler tough dogs to flourish and a lot of this goes to training methods that have evolved today. People use less and less praise as primary reinforcement in high level drive training, and rely more and more on balls and toys and tugs for motivation and pinches and remotes for corrections. I think these methods have led to a type of "harder" dog sought for top sport that is moving away from genetic obedience. Often, people in this mode have the same blinders that the people in the conformation ring have in terms of valuing balance in a dog as opposed to these singular traits that allow the dog to flourish in this world. I have seen many "handler sensitive" Mali"s in police work. But they are handler sensitive using certain methods in training, but otherwise very good dogs for what they are being asked to do. 
I say this to also say that you don't breed for policedogs if you are a German Shepherd breeder who wants to have dogs in a litter capable of good law enforcement work. You breed for dogs with good solid nerve and courage; do not neglect the aloof/suspicion part of the breed that is necessary for good herding dogs, and you will have the ingredients for a good training department to create good police dogs AND also have dogs that will flourish in the family as family friend and protector.


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## Fast

Mrs.K said:


> That is because to a lot of Americans, a championship title is more important than the actual dog.


Yeah, that's kind of important for Germans too.


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## Vandal

> Other than there is a culture in high sport training these days that makes it easier for the handler tough dogs to flourish and a lot of this goes to training methods that have evolved today. People use less and less praise as primary reinforcement in high level drive training, and rely more and more on balls and toys and tugs for motivation and pinches and remotes for corrections. *I think these methods have led to a type of "harder" dog sought for top sport* that is moving away from genetic obedience.


Since you have harder in quotes, I am assuming you mean something other than real hardness? I think many of the high sport dogs ARE sensitive, more so than they used to be but the level of drive covers it up. 

IMO, the dogs years ago were tougher and could handle corrections much better than the dogs nowadays. Most of the methods and gadgets lessen the level of stress the dogs are under or when used certain ways, simply dull the dogs but the level of hardness , ( at least in the dogs I have seen), is less.

Certainly I agree with the toys and food comments since I have been saying the same thing. It seems when these methods of training really took over SchH, very important traits started to disappear....mainly nerves and fight drive. You see those two traits in everything a really good dog does, not just in protection. The methods of training , while considered "primitive" to today's trainers, were what was REALLY testing the dogs. Now that is gone, as is the test. 

It has become very apparent, to me and a few other people who have been around a while, that things have really accelerated, (in the wrong direction), in the last decade. Most do not see it because they have no point of comparison but more and more, I find myself wondering if it can be fixed. I don't see the Czech dogs as the saviors for the breed but there sure needs to be something, and soon.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> The methods of training , while considered "primitive" to today's trainers, were what was REALLY testing the dogs. Now that is gone, as is the test.


Are you saying that compulsion-based training was in itself a test? Say the dog can survive the corrections and "primitive" compulsion methods, and still performs correctly and with enthusiasm. Has he already been proven to possess good nerve, hardness, and fight drive, before he even wins a trial?

I can see that point.

Seems it's not politically correct for trainers to use compulsion or correction anymore... so it's thought-provoking to consider what kind of temperament is being selected for with "pure positive" methods. If the dog is never allowed to experience any real stress, how do you know how strong the nerves *really* are? If we never use corrections, how do we know how (or whether) the dog will recover from a correction? 

Having said that, I'm not going to go beat my dogs to see what they're made of.  I am sure there are other ways of revealing a dog's true temperament; it's interesting to think about.


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## wolfstraum

Even dogs trained with positive methods who are biddable can be buttheads! I was at a Roland Sieble seminar and my dog was not giving up a ball .... she was.......corrected - and suffered no ill effects or diminishment in drive - I had never corrected her thusly, and was not prepared for it! But the dog handled it fine.....I know several competitive successful trainers and corrections are given in an old fashioned way...even though balls and food are used for training.

Lee


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## Mrs.K

wolfstraum said:


> Even dogs trained with positive methods who are biddable can be buttheads! I was at a Roland Sieble seminar and my dog was not giving up a ball .... she was.......corrected - and suffered no ill effects or diminishment in drive - I had never corrected her thusly, and was not prepared for it! But the dog handled it fine.....I know several competitive successful trainers and corrections are given in an old fashioned way...even though balls and food are used for training.
> 
> Lee


Yep. That's what I did with the foster. Sometimes you have got to use compulsion. You have to know when to use it, what kind you use and when the stop. 

Indra didn't want to give up her ball in the beginning either. A well balanced dog can take a correction either. Sometimes it's just the "AHA" effect where they stop playing and start taking you seriously. 

Sometimes a quick correction is worth more than trying somthing over and over and over and over again without getting anywhere because the dog is simply testing how far he can actually go by not "understanding" what you want even though he knows exactly what you are asking him to do. 

One day, Indra constantly broke the downstay. Even though she knew exactly what I asked from her. After I put her into the exact same spot for the fifth time I used a swift correction. It did not kill her but made her understand that enough is enough. It wasn't even a bad correction. It startled her for a second and then she stayed in position until I released her.


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## Vandal

> Having said that, I'm not going to go beat my dogs to see what they're made of.  I am sure there are other ways of revealing a dog's true temperament; it's interesting to think about.


You made quite a leap there don't you think? Compulsion doesn't have anything to do with beating a dog...although I have witnessed a number of moron "trainers" who thought it did. 

Also, one correction is not what I am talking about. I am saying the dogs were trained year in and year out with compulsion. There IS a difference. Also, the protection was more about bad guys vs "sparing partners". The stick was made of reed and stung. All those things add up to testing a dog...not for just a day or for ten seconds.


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## cliffson1

When I use hardness in describing the type of dog, I am aware that the higher drive is what gives the appearance of this hardness, but to the average person reading these posts they don't have a point of reference from the past to understand, so they only have what they see today to reference and they consider the dogs with these over the top drives, that sometimes don't even listen to the remote when in drive, to be hardness. I think the 250 dogs we had at Benning doing scout, sentry, patrol, narcotic, etc, might have given me a clue as to the type of dogs and training used on those dogs in the mid seventies, so as to understand the difference. I have also posted on this difference in dog types from the past many times. 
Never said the Czech dogs were the answer to anything BUT diversifying the genetics of the lines while retaining working qualties. Regardless of whether people like or don't like the Czech dogs, they have more than demonstrated themselves to be as effective as any other line in LE/SAR. I speak of them in value of genetics, not as an example of hardness/softness or training techniques. 
I have seen more Czech dogs in LE work than any other GS in past 10 years. I have seen many many of them and I have seen them work, they by and large do a very good job. This is fact. The reasons for their use(costs less, WGWL is too expensive, blah,blah,), is really immaterial. They work....plain and simple. I consider LE/SAR a valid use of the German Shepherd and would be foolish to not incorporate some of their genetics in my quest to maintain a genetic balance in my dogs. 
I do not speak of Sch in reference to Czech dogs, though I have heard more negative comments over the years from Sch involved people than anyone else. Why??? There are many Czech dogs who are very successful in Sch, though they tend to be handler sensitive, but I don't promote them in Sch because I still see Sch as a trial and not a sport. Something to go to achieve and not something to spend the dog's life on. That is my view, guides my thinking, and allows me to try to stay balanced in what I do with the breed. Doesn't knock anyone elses goals or objectives, and I value the other workinglines for their gifts to the breed and use them accordingly. Afterall, this is a working breed ...right?


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> You made quite a leap there don't you think? Compulsion doesn't have anything to do with beating a dog...although I have witnessed a number of moron "trainers" who thought it did.


I was kidding. Hoped my  would convey that... oh well.


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## JanaeUlva

Freestep said:


> Seems it's not politically correct for trainers to use compulsion or correction anymore... so it's thought-provoking to consider what kind of temperament is being selected for with "pure positive" methods. If the dog is never allowed to experience any real stress, how do you know how strong the nerves *really* are? If we never use corrections, how do we know how (or whether) the dog will recover from a correction?





> Other than there is a culture in high sport training these days that makes it easier for the handler tough dogs to flourish and a lot of this goes to training methods that have evolved today. People use less and less praise as primary reinforcement in high level drive training, and rely more and more on balls and toys and tugs for motivation and pinches and remotes for corrections


So actually the discussion was not originally talking of no corrections but the lack of praise based reward being enough for a dog to work for - genetic obedience.

So aren't we talking again about a balanced dog?

*Can't a balanced dog benefit from a balance of training methods? And can't a dog become unbalanced when a dependence on one method of training is used?*

I hear and see people all the time saying how obsessive ball crazy their dog is. But they started out using a ball and fetch when the dog was a pup and rarely placed as much emphasis and time with anything else, like a tug, praise, and later other activities like agility, tracking, hiking sans ball. The dogs center of his universe, his energy reliever, his bond with the handler was the ball. So why wouldn't the animal become ball obsessive?

It seems that people can get into a rut with how they train instead of exercising balance. Wouldn't it be good to mix things up so the dog doesn't become particularly obsessed and conditioned to one way of communicating?


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## Vandal

> It seems that people can get into a rut with how they train instead of exercising balance. Wouldn't it be good to mix things up so the dog doesn't become particularly obsessed and conditioned to one way of communicating?


People can train any way they want. Training does not change who the dog *is*. I do not agree that "genetic obedience" means you never correct the dog. It is not all about obedience anyway. GO is the behaviors bred into the dog that makes the dog want to work. For the lack of a better way to put it, they get satisfaction in the work itself, however, you still have to show the dog what you, as the hander, wants him to do. They should have the fortitude to handle corrections or stress from other sources. The desire to do the work is so strong, it does not deter their desire to work even under tougher conditions. 
People are now making things very "easy" for the dogs but still think they are somehow being tested. They are also using methods, like what you just talked about, that make seeing who the dog really is, much more difficult. Might be a case where the dog is a good one but the training doesn't bring that out of the dog in the slightest. I have seen that when working dogs in protection and I see what people are doing in obedience. The dogs all look alike. It is "attentiveness" to prey objects, not to the handller.


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## Vandal

> I was kidding. Hoped my  would convey that... oh well.


I understood you were kidding. However, the majority of people nowadays make the same connection you did there with your joke. It is creating more problems than most people want to admit or have the ability to see.


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## Vandal

> Afterall, this is a working breed ...right?


Not for very much longer. Everything is a "show" now where the trainer is the star. Not many really want to look at the dogs anymore...even if they say they are.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> I understood you were kidding. However, the majority of people nowadays make the same connection you did there with your joke. It is creating more problems than most people want to admit or have the ability to see.


You mean the majority of people think the use of compulsion/correction is tantamount to beating your dog? I was actually poking fun at those people... I know, I shouldn't.  For the record, IMO, compulsion is NOT abuse!


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## Vandal

> Something to go to achieve and not something to spend the dog's life on. That is my view, guides my thinking, and allows me to try to stay balanced in what I do with the breed. Doesn't knock anyone elses goals or objectives.....


First...used to be, ( and for people who do understand dogs, it still can be) , that SchH could show you MANY things about the dogs and what other abilities they had to offer. You could see it in their behaviors. Problem is, hardly anyone now really cares to be looking at the dogs. It's all about getting the dog ready so everyone will look at the handler. The tricks in training are valued over putting the dogs on display.

I think competition of any kind that involves animals, (where the person competing becomes the sole purpose of the competition), the animals suffer. I went with a friend yesterday to visit her horse. She is training the horse in Dressage and is being trained by a very successful horse person who competed several times in the Olympics. We were discussing the horses as we walked thru the property and I asked if the trainer ever trail rides her horses. " Oh no, they go from the stall to the ring and back into the stall". My friend said many of the horses trained this way were retired early due to behaviors that stemmed from this type of handling. That was her opinion and I could certainly agree with that. Lisa C sent me an article a couple of years ago written by a woman who had trained in Dressage years ago and recently came back to it. She lamented about the differences in the horses, ( less willing, very hot and unruly), and the methods, ( harsher methods), to try to control what was no longer a horse "really" suited for Dressage. Sound familiar? 

I am not sure if this is a natural progression stemming from competition with animals, or if we, as a society, have simply lost our minds. Just that it is all so eerily similar. Says quite a bit about the behavior of people.


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## bocron

My newest girl, Umarek von Hugelblick, would be considered very biddable by my standards. I feel like I'm cheating when I'm working with her since I don't really feel like I've actually trained her as much as I've just shown her what to do. She stays pretty much set in heel position on her own with her eyes locked on mine, it's uncanny. The funny thing is she pretty much won't do even a sit for anyone else other than my husband or kids. If one of the people in the DVG club tell her to sit she just cocks her head at them. If they ask again she might do it or might not. I'm not sure if she just doesn't think she should listen to them or if she is just queued to our family body language. She also doesn't really get too upset if I get on her case about something, like if she grabbed a pillow off the couch and ran with it. I will yell Aus in a very gruff way and she'll drop the pillow and **** her head at me but she doesn't then come "apologize" the way my male High line would do. Pretty interesting. I bought this girl because I so loved her dam's temperament, so I'm pretty psyched so far that she seems to take after her mom in this regard. This is MY first WL GSD. I have lived with dozens of WL GSDs over the course of my marriage to my husband, but never had my very own from the beginning to train (I had Beaucerons for years, NOT very biddable most of the time LOL). She is such a joy to work.
The people at our DVG club have a little phrase they are always repeating when any dog just seems to do something naturally. From the movie "Trading Places" we all just say "It's in the blood, Winthorp."
Annette
Umarek von Hugelblick - German Shepherd Dog


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## JanaeUlva

Vandal said:


> People can train any way they want. Training does not change who the dog *is*. I do not agree that "genetic obedience" means you never correct the dog. It is not all about obedience anyway. GO is the behaviors bred into the dog that makes the dog want to work. For the lack of a better way to put it, they get satisfaction in the work itself, however, you still have to show the dog what you, as the hander, wants him to do. They should have the fortitude to handle corrections or stress from other sources. The desire to do the work is so strong, it does not deter their desire to work even under tougher conditions.
> 
> People are now making things very "easy" for the dogs but still think they are somehow being tested. They are also using methods, like what you just talked about, that make seeing who the dog really is, much more difficult. Might be a case where the dog is a good one but the training doesn't bring that out of the dog in the slightest. I have seen that when working dogs in protection and I see what people are doing in obedience. The dogs all look alike. It is "attentiveness" to prey objects, not to the handller.


Your description makes it more clear - GO: the desire to work. And like you stated the handler needs to show the dog what to do. So understanding that you can't make gold out of silver - my thought is that when people get stuck with a couple methods of training it doesn't *even give the dog a chance* to show what he is made of and frequently leaves the handler in a pickle because they have run out of options. If, like my example of ball crazy (this is just an example) the dog gets TOO worked up with a ball and the dog has not been "conditioned" for a lack of a better term to other "show me" techniques like a tug or praise, or food, or correction then what is left? 

So here I go thinking again, if training can cover up what a dog is really made of (and that could be covering up the qualities as well as the faults) then i as an individual would want to train in a way that would help me/ give me / give the dog a chance to see "who is this dog?"


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## lhczth

If a dog has the right make up from the start, the right drives, the right genetics, then you won't get stuck using only one method of training. The handler may get stuck because of their lack of skill, but a good dog has malleability.


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## cliffson1

:thumbup:


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## Debbieg

onyx'girl said:


> What about the dog that goes by it interested, but decides it isn't worth his time or worry...That would be the one I would want beside me.
> I wouldn't want the growler because it IMO shows some cockiness and usually cockiness comes from lack of confidence.
> Thrill seekers usually end up getting hurt at some point in their life, not sure that is because of lack of intelligence or common sense.


:thumbup:I feel the same way but was too lazy to type!


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## Samba

Although I use "modern" methods a great deal, I haven't purchsed a dog from a breeder who uses modern methods to any great degree Just thought of that. It seems those people have had the type of dog that could produce what I appreciate.


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## Debbieg

Samba said:


> Although I use "modern" methods a great deal, I haven't purchased a dog from a breeder who uses modern methods to any great degree Just thought of that. It seems those people have had the type of dog that could produce what I appreciate.


I am learning so much from this thread.

What do you mean by "modern methods"? The positive only methods only worked with Benny until he became an adolescent and after that were an epic fail. ( though they laid a good foundation, built confidence) 

Since he was 13 months I have been training Benny with Lisa Maze who is Michael Ellis partner and has the same philosophy. The training method depends on the dog. They use markers training, food, and toy rewards, prongs and e-collars depending on the dog.

Benny is now 2 and probably does not have a lot of GO, although he loves and easily learns new tasks. He is a bit reactive and could not handle too much pressure, but using a combination of all the above methods he has become a dog I can take everywhere and know he will listen and respect what ask of him.


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## Samba

I mean lots of treat and reward training beyond puppyhood as far as modern training. The dogs are trained with primarily energy, praise and correction. Occassionally a toy game as part of the session, but not so much each exercise working for a toy. These dogs tend to have desire to work, a motivation to please the handler. They tend to come higher into drive and improve performance with correction.

Now, I didn"t look with this is mind. It is just the training environment I found when I saw dogs who I thought were very good German Shepherds.


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## Vandal

I think before all of the motivational training started to really take over, trainers had a better grasp on the idea of maturity in dogs and "what to train, when". Meaning, young dogs were not started in obedience until they were ready for it. Makes a rather significant difference if you ask me. 

Also, it is one thing to train anyway you want when you are simply competing in SchH or AKC but if you are breeding and you 'really" want to know what you have produced, the training should involve some stress and pressure. The ability to withstand stress or pressure is genetic. I am reading the other thread in the SchH section about correcting a dog and then popping a toy so the dog associates the correction with the toy. That's all fine and good but a dog who can actually handle a correction, will come up in drive without the toy to encourage it. 
The same thread about popping the leash under the chin is another method that people don't seem to understand. The motivational trainer is actually creating some stress by doing that but all the action of running, talking, the toy and the VERY short duration of heeling overrides the stress. She is doing everything to keep the dog out of avoidance, while using that stress to fuel the attitude. Dogs who can handle pressure, usually manage to stay out of avoidance because they can naturally handle the correction. They can stay more clear when there is stress, so, manage to figure out what the trainer wants faster and they don't need all that action to help them forget the stress. They might have moments where they slip into avoidance but are easier to pull out of it because they have that fortitude, they have some hardness or toughness and no, that doesn't mean they are "buttheads". 

This is just another point about how the dogs are being trained to perform behaviors vs being re-enforced for the behaviors that come naturally....meaning they have "genetic obedience" .


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## Samba

Heaven's no they are not "buttheads"! They have some power and resilience in obedience, but they are still very good at obedience and training. My male can happily take a correction...hard and reilient. But he pours out effort to do the task as he understands it. 

My femae whose heeling is badly broken.....she was a high in trial dog last year and now remedial, has succumbed to pressure. Not all of it from me either. The pressure of competition. She is a rescue. It is evident her breeding was not one to produce what I most like in a dog. With positive methods she can perform fast and accurate happy obedience that many people smile at. But that pressure thing can send it all into the dumper!


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## Doc

Vandal said:


> I think before all of the motivational training started to really take over, trainers had a better grasp on the idea of maturity in dogs and "what to train, when". Meaning, young dogs were not started in obedience until they were ready for it. Makes a rather significant difference if you ask me.
> 
> Also, it is one thing to train anyway you want when you are simply competing in SchH or AKC but if you are breeding and you 'really" want to know what you have produced, the training should involve some stress and pressure. The ability to withstand stress or pressure is genetic. I am reading the other thread in the SchH section about correcting a dog and then popping a toy so the dog associates the correction with the toy. That's all fine and good but a dog who can actually handle a correction, will come up in drive without the toy to encourage it.
> The same thread about popping the leash under the chin is another method that people don't seem to understand. The motivational trainer is actually creating some stress by doing that but all the action of running, talking, the toy and the VERY short duration of heeling overrides the stress. She is doing everything to keep the dog out of avoidance, while using that stress to fuel the attitude. Dogs who can handle pressure, usually manage to stay out of avoidance because they can naturally handle the correction. They can stay more clear when there is stress, so, manage to figure out what the trainer wants faster and they don't need all that action to help them forget the stress. They might have moments where they slip into avoidance but are easier to pull out of it because they have that fortitude, they have some hardness or toughness and no, that doesn't mean they are "buttheads".
> 
> This is just another point about how the dogs are being trained to perform behaviors vs being re-enforced for the behaviors that come naturally....meaning they have "genetic obedience" .


:hug: Thanks for reassuring me that I am not old and senile! Maybe I'm not ready for the home after all :wild:


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## Fast

Samba said:


> Although I use "modern" methods a great deal, I haven't purchsed a dog from a breeder who uses modern methods to any great degree Just thought of that. It seems those people have had the type of dog that could produce what I appreciate.


:rofl: ROTFLMAO! :rofl: 

They have the type of dog that suits your training style because they are not doing anything special. The only different between the dogs that they (vintage breeders) are breeding and the dogs that everyone else (modern breeders) is breeding is the way they have chosen to market them. They are using the same bloodlines as most every other workingline breeder. If you dispute this, just look at their websites. Can you find a breeding or dog that dosen't proudly proclaim a BSP dog in the first few generations? While you're looking at the pedigrees can you find one with a HGH title anywhere? :wild:


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## Samba

Very true on the HGH dogs.

Maybe I just attract the less prey driven, more solid, harder to spark pups! I never get the fast, flippin' jumping racey performers who are easy to trip.


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## Fast

Samba said:


> Very true on the HGH dogs.
> 
> Maybe I just attract the less prey driven, more solid, harder to spark pups! I never get the fast, flippin' jumping racey performers who are easy to trip.


It's true what I said about the BSP, WUSV and other high level sport dogs in those pedigrees too.

I'm sure you do get that type of dog in the end, but how much of that is your training and how much is the dog's breeding? It is vastly underestimated, by some, how much hard work it takes to get a "fast, flippin', racey" dog.


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## Samba

Not my training... My rather quiet and staid training friend who almost never raises a toy has the maniac prey, faster than lightening naturally dog. It is the dog and its genetic endowment. I have the warmblood, but he means it when he bites so 
I will continue to sweat in obed.

There are differences in these BSP begotten dogs.


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## phgsd

Just wanted to post what I understand of Ulf's breeding philosophy. His foundation dogs are HGH lines bred by "real" shepherds. He keeps the herding instinct coming through the female line. The instincts come through pretty strongly - enough that he can outcross to "non-herding" working or show lines as he sees fit...working lines to bring more drive, showlines to perhaps dial it down a bit. 
JMO - I have seen quite a few dogs from his litters and their temperaments vary from very calm to powerful - maybe not super consistent in temperament, but most or all can do the HGH work.

BTW - I am not a student or friend of Ulf's but have seen many of his dogs and am just paraphrasing what he's said about his breeding program on his herding list  The key is that herding motherline.


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## bocron

phgsd said:


> Just wanted to post what I understand of Ulf's breeding philosophy. His foundation dogs are HGH lines bred by "real" shepherds. .


If you are referring to Ulf Kintzel(?) then his foundation litter was his herding female bred to a working male who had started out as a Schutzhund competition dog then became a working police K9. 

Annette


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## Fast

Samba said:


> There are differences in these BSP begotten dogs.


On this we agree 100%. That's why I think it's complete BS when people try to say that the dogs that they breed and own have some sort of mystical magical qualities that other dogs don't have. Herding lines have the magic even though you have to go on a journey with Hobbits and fight a few Orks to find a real life herding GSD. But YOU can't understand the magic because you haven't spent half of your life meditating while perched on the tomb of vom Stephanitz. You can't see the dogs because they are all too good to do any sport or show. It all sounds like a another sales pitch for magic beans to me. :laugh:


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## phgsd

bocron said:


> If you are referring to Ulf Kintzel(?) then his foundation litter was his herding female bred to a working male who had started out as a Schutzhund competition dog then became a working police K9.
> 
> Annette


Yes - sorry, meant foundation female!

And no - I don't think you HAVE to go to herding lines to get a GSD that can herd. Kessy is living proof of that - and there are a handful of others out there. But are we talking about "real life" tending 200+ sheep day in and day out, or chasing a handful of sheep around in a pen??

Even with the HGH - there are plenty of dogs out there that could title, but not so many that could do the "real" day to day farm work where things can get very complicated and you have to ask much more of the dog. Think of it like police vs. sport work - many (most?) of the sport dogs couldn't do real life police work. I have seen dogs get HGH titles that would never make real herding dogs. 

But on the topic of genetic obedience - Kessy has been a real challenge to train in herding. She has soo much drive she can be tough to keep under control. But she has good instincts and is VERY biddable - she just wants to work for me - and she is very resilient and bounces right back from any corrections. Without that genetic obedience (and resilience since I do have to really get after her every now and then), I don't think the herding training would have worked out, it would have been a mess! But somehow it has all come together and she has turned into a really nice tending dog and could give the HGH bred dogs a run for their money


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## Samba

Just got a Sheltie...now,I DO believe in genetic obedience and to a freakish degree! Guess some GSDs might have this? Herdish ones anyway?


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## Vandal

is your Sheltie's name "Magic"?


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## carmspack

I'm very glad this topic has surfaced again . 
If someone can give me some help with a log in issue I can get back to detailed annotated answers .

I need to settle "Fasts" malinois issue -- which I wrote out but...
And I want to let phgsd, "Kessy's" owner know how deep and rich a vein of old herding dogs runs through her dogs pedigree. I wrote an history on the background -- this dog is obedient to its genetics--- she thinks the herding is not there when it actuality it is a valuable pedigree full of real heritage herding family lines.
But everytime I write something a bit longer and go to post it --- I am blocked , timed out? says refresh page and try again . 
Of course everything I put down has vanished . Is someone excersing bad magic?

So that was Fast rolling on the floor laughing his/her sass off? I thought Fast had fallen and couldn't get up. hmm

Carmen


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## gagsd

Try writing it in a document (like "Word") and then cut/paste it here.


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## Fast

Samba said:


> Just got a Sheltie...now,I DO believe in genetic obedience and to a freakish degree! Guess some GSDs might have this? Herdish ones anyway?


Anything is possible.

Poll: Majority Believe In Ghosts - CBS News


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> Of course everything I put down has vanished .


Maybe you left it next to your copy of Word and Picture.


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## carmspack

sheer ignorance to belittle the quest for knowledge.

You have no idea how fortunate we are to have such a thorough and meticulous record of the breed history . I don't think any other breed has such a resource material.

If you want to renovate isn't it a good idea to look at a blue print or to consult with the architect .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jack's Dad

Maybe Fast is a ghost.


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## phgsd

Carmen - would be very interested to hear what you know about the herding history in Kessy's pedigree. I am aware of some of the herding lines way back, but it still amazes me that it can come through so strongly. Wish you could see her work in person...I never get tired of watching her tend the sheep!!


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> sheer ignorance to belittle the quest for knowledge.


 No hobbits need on my quest.


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## Fast

Jack's Dad said:


> Maybe Fast is a ghost.


That would mean that most of you believe in me. :blush:


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## Cassidy's Mom

carmspack said:


> But everytime I write something a bit longer and go to post it --- I am blocked , timed out? says refresh page and try again .
> Of course everything I put down has vanished . Is someone excersing bad magic?


When you log in do you check the "remember me" box? If you do that the page will not time out. If you share a computer with others in your household and do not wish to be logged in all the time, you can simply log out each time you're done and then log back in the next time.

If you are the only one using that computer, leaving the "remember me" box checked means that each time you come onto the board it will recognize you and you will already be logged in.


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## lhczth

Let's stay on topic and stop the little jabs, please.

ADMIN Lisa

********


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## Samba

I will name the Sheltie's puppy....."I Believe in Magic"! She herself came with a magical name, "Shimmer Shimmer CoCo Pup". I just bought her because I saw a pup out of her with genetic obedience and I want those genes. She is a bi-blue merle. So, if there is blue merle pup it will have to be called "Forever in Blue Genes".

You just have to show the pup once generally for an obedience behavior. Saves a lot of time! Is it just intelligence? My Catahoula is intelligent but does not obedience train nearly as easily. Seems to be a significant genetic aptitude in some dogs for obedience or something. What is an okay thing to call it?


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## Samba

I am sure there is nothing magical about genetic obedience. Many have tried to describe what it is related to...pack drive, rank, biddability. It the thing to have in a herding dog so such breedings would be a place to go, if they were not so far away!

My Samba dog and my American dog of years ago had it. These dogs seem/ed very interested in what I was thinking. Now that is a silly way to describe it, but that is the sense I had when living with it. My current dog is not as much so. He has a bit of it but it is not pronounced. It so great to be around dogs who are so interested in your next desire or focus. They are so quick and willing to help you get to your goal. It is also a very flattering trait to live with.


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## NancyJ

I think once you see it in a dog you can realize it. It really is impressive and, yes, downright surreal. If you have not seen it, you don't understand.

When you look at the studies showing how dogs, unlike wolves, are hardwired to read our body language and communicate with us it should be no surprise. You figure early dogs were our hunting companions and the language of the hunt is a silent symphony.

But I think we have bred some of this out of our dogs in an effort to "improve" them.


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## Samba

Yes, "improvement" is a slippery slope.


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## Vandal

I have had several dogs I would describe as you just did Samba. Bear was one, as was Faust and Lear...both Enno sons, Bear a grandson. Enno's mother line had many herding dogs, so, I feel there is a connection there.
Having said that , genetic obedience is not just about obedience. I think when people first hear the term,.... because dogs are not born already knowing obedience...., they are skeptical and immediately want to fight against such a notion . Others are just flat wrong about what they think it is as it doesn't have as much to do with a dog simply being soft or sensitive or even "biddable" as they are thinking . So, the term is not the best but there is something about dogs who have whatever it is, that makes them really something special. Even magical, if you want to look at it that way. Those dogs I just listed I will never forget because of whatever that was they all had. They make you look very good as a "trainer", when they actually require much less of that than other dogs.


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## Samba

Very little training needed. You might need to show them some mechanics of something. But, probably not the recall. "Engagement"....boy, do I hate to "train" that. No need in these dogs.
They live life "engaged".


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## onyx'girl

jocoyn said:


> I think once you see it in a dog you can realize it. It really is impressive and, yes, downright surreal. If you have not seen it, you don't understand.
> 
> When you look at the studies showing how dogs, unlike wolves, are hardwired to read our body language and communicate with us it should be no surprise. You figure early dogs were our hunting companions and the language of the hunt is a silent symphony.
> 
> But I think we have bred some of this out of our dogs in an effort to "improve" them.


We have a dog in our training group that was re-homed at about 15 months due to her excessive drive and wasn't placed properly by the breeder. She is genetically obedient, IMO, but needs to have a firm handler to keep her that way....
Her _over_drive will have her tagging her handler(who is experienced) almost every session, but she is so willing to work and do what is asked, and it is not because of the bond that she has with her new handler. Before they ever 'bonded', she just had the will to work.
Though she does need to be kept in check...is that considered genetic obedience? Or is she too off balance to be considered as such. I'd love to have a dog that is so biddable, even if she doesn't target well LOL!
Her pedigree:
Della Vom Bettendorf - German Shepherd Dog


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## Vandal

> She is genetically obedient, IMO, but needs to have a firm handler to keep her that way....


This does not make sense to me.


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## Vandal

When I think of the dogs I was talking about, everything was in balance. They were what Samba described but were also instinctively protective and there was simply a connection with me, that other dogs I have owned didn't have. 
Very easy to control and handle because they were always listening, no matter how high in drive, no matter what they were doing. These were not wussy dogs in the least. Hard hitting, full biting, with tons of fight drive but I could out them with a spoken word. I didn't train them to work in protection, we re-enforced what was already there in the dog. First time they saw the helper, they were ready to engage. It was instinctual. It was in their genes to work in SchH or whatever else you wanted them to do.


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## Samba

No special techniques or tools needed. It IS like magic!


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## Achielles UD

I've got a genetically obedient Sheltie! She is freakish in how easy she is to train.

Thinking back to Achielles, who was an extremely easy dog to train, he was not genetically obedient. Yes, easy to train. Yes, biddible. Yes we had a connection but it was not what I am seeing in this sheltie. 

As Anne says, if you haven't seen it, it is hard to describe or put into words. But it is darn near magical!


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## Jason L

This is making me want to go out and get a Sheltie!!


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## Debbieg

Samba said:


> You just have to show the pup once generally for an obedience behavior. Saves a lot of time! Is it just intelligence? My Catahoula is intelligent but does not obedience train nearly as easily. Seems to be a significant genetic aptitude in some dogs for obedience or something. What is an okay thing to call it?


I have had two GSD's with genetic obedience. The first was when I was only 14 and what we made me fall in love with the breed. The second was a rescue. It is much more than intelligence. It is an intuitive knowing and desire to be with the human. These two dogs not only learned a behavior quickly but did so without needing treats or rewards. It was as if learning what I wanted was reward enough.

My husbands Borzoi is intelligent and obeys basic commands, has but has about as much genetic obedience as our cats :laugh:
He is genetically independent. It took me days and lots of pieces of meat to get him to shake hands and he still looks more like he is flipping me off.:wild:


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## Doc

You breed for genetic obedience, it can't be trained. The purpose of the trainer is to cultivate what is already genetically inside the dog. The drives, nerves, etc. are all in balance - it's the X factor IMO.


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## Samba

Yes, it is in the dog. It is not all about training an obedience behavior...much beyond that. Wonder if I will experience the X factor ever again. In the meantime, out to mess with my less in tune boy who makes me have to work a bit harder. 

The Shelties are fun and freakish smart. If you get a good one, easy to train. But, they are not the same as a magical, X factor GSD. As a child, my fantasy was such a dog to own. So glad I was privileged to experience it. They are not all so endowed. It might be the Holy Grail at this point.


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## carmspack

dogs that when confronted with night training, training over difficult surfaces, training around fire and water, training in going into an empty building in the dark KNOWING that there is a threat there to confront them, or able to focus and follow direction when all heck is taking place; there are many dogs that don't make it.

Lastly, the ability to focus and follow direction in a stressful NEW situation is priceless, you'd be surprised how many dogs that appear to be great when they know what to expect fall apart when the stress of the unknown appears. 

Most of this is nerve based, but there is a certain controlled recklessness that is harder to find, and also a necessity of dog and handler to work together in drive under stressful and NEW conditions that you are seeing less and less in the breed. JMO

All of the above was Cliff's words

CLIFF -- I found the word I was looking for !
You called it 
Controlled wrecklessness -- 
DARING , even von Stephanitz used this word to describe the dog under the situations you laid out -- the dogs were 

D A R I N G .

That is what we need . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Cassidy's Mom

Not sure about all the rest of what everyone is talking about, but controlled recklessness and daring? Yeah, I got that with Halo! :wild: The girl is FEARLESS!!!


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## onyx'girl

She is genetically obedient, IMO, but needs to have a firm handler to keep her that way...


Vandal said:


> This does not make sense to me.


Because she is DARING! She just needs a firm handler to keep her engaged. Her former home just wanted her to be a 'companion', it wasn't enough.


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## Vandal

I'll let someone else try:

German Shepherd Herding Genetics Is Everything


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## Samba

No firm hand needed in the genetically obedient dog. No loud voice either. They are not difficult to direct at all. I think if someone has not experienced it, they make think something is it that is not. 

Great article reference. The magical dog here is by the bed. I just peaked my head up to check on her and was met by the same look from her...."did you need something?" is always on their mind.


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## cwmia

*Controlled wrecklessness......my first female.*

I had the type of dog Carmspack is talking about. Feared nothing but never injured herself. Always gave 200% without question. I did not have to climb on top of things to get her to go....she went. Loved to carry and fetch. Would swim across a pond for a bite (under fire). She was a very real dog and unbelievably loyal. Tasha von Taramax - German Shepherd Dog
Catherine


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## Debbieg

So what lines or combination of lines should we be looking for to make this wonderful quality the norm rather than the exception? I am hoping to add a new pup to our family next spring and Genetic Obedience and health are might top priorities.


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## Samba

While a genetically obedient dog may be daring if that is in their nature...no need to worry. They call off the daring activity with a word. Many people have wanted my dog with this. They want a dog so easily controlled because of their responsiveness and so "into" their owner. The dog can be tough and protective and go-go.... the great thing is that it is naturally under your control.


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## carmspack

Samba , there is where the magic is , a dog so competent and confident yet so available for direction . This is why OLD herding family lines are critical , the control and accessibility of the dog at a distance, "the zone of influence". 
I had mentioned elsewhere a pup that I took out first car ride, first time with collar-leash, first time off property , in car total about hour before arriving at destination with multiple stops (multi-tasking again) . Then when I get there go and meet up with Mike , dog still in car , quiet, Mike goes stands in front of crate , dog barks, I arrive dog settles . Pop open crate door , walk away, dog has to figure it out , moments later there she is striding beside me in attentive heel position . No confusion with who she is with . Had to walk past fenced exercise yard with the family pet dogs barking excitedly. Never missed a step , kept attention on me. We did agility equipment, retrieves, a couple of extended master tracks . Walking back her two brothers (Gage and Sloan) caught her attention and she ran a good 200 feet or more to go visit while Mike and I were engaged in discussion. Even though she was this distance away with major distraction , she recalled and was a streak coming back , direct front finish to me. Good dog. No bribing , or tricks , or reward outside of hey that's the way , good dog. No tricks on the track either. 

pedigree Carmspack Ming Griswald van Xazziam - German Shepherd Dog dam Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German Shepherd Dog a ddr import SANDOKAN bred dog saddled with an american name 

I keep showing Ming's sister Elle/Kira on this blog Birch-Bark Hill . Carmspack Trust -- absolutely has "it" .

current prospect born June 16 2011 showing the same Carmspack Le Reve ( translates from french to -- the dream) 
brother bicolour male, sister elegant solid black, brother dark sable -- I hope to have all 4 on video and or pictures when Linda Shaw comes over tomorrow to test new camera out.
pedigree is http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=562873

dam is http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=666363

Samba you may recognize LeRoy in there -- LeRoy had it , Cubby has it , Cubby's son Mathias (a long coat bicolour) has it .
Bambi -- absolutely has it Carmspack Bambi - German Shepherd Dog - litter in future using brother PD Buffalo (who had it) Stark as the pedigree stand in for Mathias Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

Not every dog I have has "it" . 
I purposely look for it .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

Carmspack Sumo ,and his sister Cutter , brother to Laurel's Journey , http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=691615 who I cannot wait to his 2nd year birthday to get his hips done -- soon , very soon. This dog is amazing. 
Chapters on his intelligence .


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## carmspack

We've covered quite a bit about the nature of the dog , the genetics, the behaviour etc . I think we should talk a bit on how to be with such a dog as an owner as a person who works with the dog, how to allow the dog to mature (here I KNOW that Vandal and I will be on the same page) , how to work within a schutzhund training format that will not have a clue at what they are looking at and what to do with it.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Doc

I have a litter mate (female) of this dog. What a wonderful balanced dog that is exhibiting "it" ...
M'Kaiser von Benedict - German Shepherd Dog

She shows her natural instincts even as a young pup.


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## Mrs.K

> Ilya Schwarzenzwinge


Just for clarification, are you talking about _Ilja aus dem schwarzen Zwinger. 
_I do believe he was at the BSP in Krefeld back in 84 or 8_5. 


As for genetic obedience, I have yet to own a dog that doesn't have it. 
_


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## carmspack

carmspack said:


> We've covered quite a bit about the nature of the dog , the genetics, the behaviour etc . I think we should talk a bit on how to be with such a dog as an owner as a person who works with the dog, how to allow the dog to mature (here I KNOW that Vandal and I will be on the same page) , how to work within a schutzhund training format that will not have a clue at what they are looking at and what to do with it.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
putting this on here , in addition to another thread , because this is so important . I have yet to have anyone "show" me -- it is NOT about training , and it is not about obedience --
Anne , ms Vandal knows what it is -- 

quote " I think there is a difference in an ideal dog and an ideal GSD. Most now seem to make it more about a dog and expect that breeds, and the genetic traits that go along with that breed, matter less. There is an idea that training can adjust the things you don't like.
This has always been a problem with the general public. People who would get a dog because they liked the looks but didn't consider just what it was that breed was bred to do. Then they would struggle endlessly working against the traits the breeder worked so hard to maintain.

Now it seems, that mentality has worked it's way into the working sports. Many people no longer realize that SchH was about seeing if the GSD had the genetic traits it was intended to have. People are so much more clever, (or they think they are), in how they cheat the system. It first became apparent in the show line dogs, where suddenly SchH 3 dogs didn't seem to recognize what a dumbbell was. Now, it has moved to the working lines. There is mostly one kind of dog now, the high prey, low trigger dog that can be worked by the people who spend more time trying to understand the point system in IPO, than they do learning to understand their dog and his innate instincts. I continue to feel like this is such a huge loss. This new mentality that is all about training vs working with, and bringing out the genetic talents, of their GSD. 

For me, an ideal GSD is one who always has an ear to his handler. A dog who even though not raised with children, has a sense of what they are, and a somewhat maternal instinct becomes obvious in their presence. At the same time, they have an actual protective instinct. Where they will protect their handler in a way that, for the lack of a better way to put it, is also somewhat maternal in nature. No, not through "prey attraction" and not because they are "defensive" or any of the other terms that are now used way too often, without the understanding behind them. It is different in how it looks and how it is triggered. The good GSDs have a sense connected to this instinct that allows them to size up the situation before they act.

I want a dog who is easy to train. One that does not require endless repetitions to learn behaviors that should be easily accessible to the trainer. Where they pick up tracking like the naturals they should be and show a willingness to engage with their handler, seemingly asking, " what do you want to do now?" Not because the handler has food or a ball but because it is their handler and there is that bond. 

There should also be a degree of hardness where the dog can stand up to stress or actually get better when they experience conflict. Real courage, and an ability in protection work that does not have to be trained or controlled with electronics but dogs who see the bad guy and instinctively know what to do. Again, no endless work as a puppy chasing rags on flirt poles, but capable of biting "full and hard" the first time they ever see an agitator but still maintaining the ability to hear and comply with their handler's commands. Even while high in fight drive they have that very GSD quality of knowing when to escalate the fight, and the nerves to be capable of stopping when commanded. 

I guess everyone thinks they have this kind of dog but mostly now, I see one kind of dog as I said earlier. No, I can't see all the dog across the country and occasionally I see one that makes me think that might be an actual GSD. However, more and more, it is hard to find a different type of dog. The dogs are less of a medium threshold now and easier to stimulate. Those dogs have always been there but breeders understood how to use them to balance. Some would still like to find that balance but are having a great deal of trouble finding the right dog.

I know, people who have something to loose here will argue how great the dogs are now. That may be your perspective but mostly, anymore, I see people who lack the right kind of experience to make that judgment. 
__________________









Anne
www.adlerstein.com 
_Last edited by Vandal; Today at 12:05 PM. _


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## bill

Great post! These are the one's I remember.
Thanks Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/462193-book-doc.html


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## carmspack

so , Doc, I was going to fool around and say , have I got a dog for you ! 
That meaning there is a dog that fits "genetic obedience" exactly . I celebrate a good dog no matter what or where it is or who has it . This happens to be a white GSD .

The owner , leaves me in awe for her ability to overcome life changing damage done to her in a car accident. I told her this , no secret. Her companion dog was with her in the car and also had some injury .

She sent me video clips of her dog , which she has turned into a brilliant , happy , willing , thinking assistance mobility dog. 

The person is not a dog expert . Employs no gimmicks, motivational tricks , harsh methods , nothing , and yet here you have this highly engaged willing , dog who is caring and responsive and connected to her and allows her mobility. 
This puts the "man walking 5 pack GSD" in place .

This dog is living breathing genetic obedience. If I get permission I will see if I can't post one or two of the clips.

An example , dog opens doors, closes doors, gets things for her, helped her build a deck by bringing her 6 foot 4x4 lumber posts , allows her to rest on him, and provides her with a pace when walking . He gets appreciation as his reward. The dog is full of life and very evidently happy being helpful . 

The person has these amazing accomplishments "

Now the task is to find her "the" dog that she needs. 

So Doc ? do you know that this lady RECOMMENDS your book 
quote "*She has developed skills, abilities and technology which has enabled her to participate well beyond the limits of her dystonia and speech apraxia. It is with this conviction Dawne provides *You can find the book at the following

On Parson's Porch is: Reflections from the Dog House ? Parson's Porch & Company.

Amazing ! That can't be co-incidence.

*Recreation program in Canada in 1970 in NS, received Dawne designed the first Fully Integrated The National Training Institute Fellowship Award in 1990, Hearing Aid Audio Award 2004, certificates, as director from the Boys and Girls Club of Fredericton NB, is a certified Custom Dog Trainer BC 2005, graduate Dalhousie University 1974 in Adaptive Physical Education, and with honors from Grant McEwan college 2005."*

We need to be stewards of the breed and ensure that basic utility and versatility are found, restored, and perpetuated . Intelligence. Genetic obedience. Health.


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## Doc

Andaka said:


> Do any of you think that "handler sensitivity" and biddability are related?


If being biddable means being obedient, willing to take direction and comes out of genetic obedience, then the complementary characteristic to biddability is Handler Sensitivity.
A handler sensitive dog does not require strong corrections for much of anything, does not need prong collars or electronic collars in order to care about what the handler wants, nor do they need to live on programs such as NILF. They are quick to respond to their handler"s communications and to accommodate them.
It is biddability exclusive to the relationship between the handler and the dog.


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## blackshep

My dog has genetic disobedience :laugh:


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