# Attention to those who feed Victor Dog food



## mmags

Victor recently changed their packaging on all of their formulas but that was not the only change. Along with the new bags, all of the formulas have changed. All formulas now have blood meal due to a reduction in meat meal as a protein source. The grain free formulas have peas higher on the ingredient list. Some have now also added garbanzo beans into the ingredient list. Formulas like the Yukon salmon moved salmon out of the first few ingredients. All formulas also now have Tetra Sodium Pyrophosphate and Vegetable Oil in them. They have added the blood meal to still be able to claim the same protein levels while decreasing the amount of meat in them. Victor also removed the general analysis tab that they had on their website for each formula and now only have the guaranteed analysis. Calorie content per cup decreased on almost every formula as well. I am disappointed in the change in the brand and wanted to give others a heads up. It seems the popularity got to them and in order to keep prices the same they needed to modify the ingredients and in my opinion, downgrade. I will be switching.


----------



## Colorado

Ugh. After way too much research I settled on Victor and now this? Bah bah bah. Humbug.


----------



## car2ner

thanks for the heads up! I'm still feeding Beaverdam but now if I want to switch out I'll look past Victor. Have you checked VErus?


----------



## Jax08

I'm not switching. It's a good food and my dogs have done well on it. I'll switch when I see a reason too.


----------



## Jenny720

Good to know. Thanks for the info.


----------



## mmags

car2ner said:


> thanks for the heads up! I'm still feeding Beaverdam but now if I want to switch out I'll look past Victor. Have you checked VErus?


I have not but I have seriously been considering Beaverdam, specifically the high energy bag. How do you like it?


----------



## dogfaeries

Jax08 said:


> I'm not switching. It's a good food and my dogs have done well on it. I'll switch when I see a reason too.




I’m doing a “wait and see” also.


----------



## Mei

Good to know thanks. Mei's current bag is almost out. We'll see. She's beginning to lose taste for it...


----------



## crittersitter

Well that's certainly a BIG downgrade. What a shame.


----------



## Shane'sDad

Victor and Sport dog are two of the brands I've been rotating around on...for the last year or so I've been trying different flavors from both brands trying to keep (Beau) my almost 14 year old interested in eating--he seems to be willing to eat and do well on most formulas that I've tried from either brand...he was raised the first 12 years of his life on Verus...gradually lost interest....then came to a screeching halt...that's when I spent time reading/researching to come up with Victor and/or Sport....I also have two young Aussies that do great on either brand--good appetite-energy-coat and poop---I will continue feeding as I have been...until the dogs "tell' me one way or the other that they're not doing well or loose their appetite for Victor


I spent a good bit of time trying to decide on a good quality kibble--looking at ingredients---where the ingredients are sourced from etc...most of you know the drill....I really--REALLY wish companies...all companies (not just dog food)....would leave a good thing alone and not try to fix something when it's not broken...to the OP thanks for the heads up


----------



## Colorado

Shane'sDad said:


> ...would leave a good thing alone and not try to fix something when it's not broken...


The problem is they aren't trying to fix something with the food or the nutrition. They are trying to fix something with the financials. I'm most disappointed that the analysis information is now much less detailed. That alone is a huge red flag for me.

Since we are all talking here, I'm open to suggestions. I'm back to researching and looking for something all-life stages, suitable for a GSD puppy (meaning the right calcium to phosphorus ratio and overall calcium content), protein in the 25-32% range, choices to rotate protein sources, and grain-inclusive. I suppose I could consider rotating in grain-free formulas too as the data there is nebulous at best.


----------



## Shane'sDad

I get that it's all about money.....all to well I get that...that's why I feel you can pick a company--any company and it's about money and the bottom line---in this case it sounds like they're trying to keep their product at a price point they believe the product will continue to sell well at..in order to do that they're cutting corners on ingredients....that happens every day...pick a market or company in it.....


A good example of the other end of the spectrum is right here where I live...there's a sandwich shop been around over 25 years over the last 10 years pretty much on an annual basis their prices increase--a little bit....but they never cut back on their quality OR tried to compete with any one elses prices....they didn't try to fix or change in any way what wasn't broken by changing quality...they kept the same quality and increased their prices to make the profit they were looking for....I wish (YES I know I live in a dream world) that all companies would keep their quality at the same level they had when "building their name"....just increase your selling price over time if you need to....over the years I've owned a couple businesses ....I understand trying to make a profit....that said when I buy I don't consider price as much in general as I do quality.......I don't mind paying for quality just give the same quality you built your name on...


----------



## car2ner

mmags said:


> I have not but I have seriously been considering Beaverdam, specifically the high energy bag. How do you like it?


My two are doing well on it. We use the Hi pro /active dog. I have ever since they were pups. I do add a few extras like a boiled egg in the morning and a heaping table spoon of canned food in the evening for flavor variety. 

When we had a cat living at our house we took her off of Purina and put her on the Beaverdam cat food..she got sassy and her fur got silky and shiny.


----------



## mmags

I think moving forward I will be going with Muenster dog food, it is also made in Texas and they own their own manufacturing plant. No recalls and the owner frequently replies to customers himself and posts on their facebook. Their ingredients and formulas are equal if not better to Victor, grain inclusive and grain free. Beaverdam will also be in my rotation.


----------



## wolfstraum

I have done Earthborn for 10? 12? plus years........with all the scare about DCM, and seeing a big change in ingredients....which also seems to be dependent on source (Chewy vs local ag feed store).....I moved mine to another food. Victor never thrilled me, Sport dog was too iffy on supply/delivery....

Beaverdam formula I looked at had a lot of pea products

Remembered meeting a rep at a pet expo a few years back, and a food which used to be highly promoted to the Sch/IPO community. The food was Best Breed (Dr Gary's) - German Dog formula.....so am giving that a try.


Lee


----------



## dogfaeries

mmags said:


> I think moving forward I will be going with Muenster dog food, it is also made in Texas and they own their own manufacturing plant. No recalls and the owner frequently replies to customers himself and posts on their facebook. Their ingredients and formulas are equal if not better to Victor, grain inclusive and grain free. Beaverdam will also be in my rotation.




Which formulas in both brands are you interested in?


----------



## Jenny720

I had called victor and wanted to share the information I was given. They wanted to changes some formulas -to all life stages. They had said AFFCO changes changed some of the standard guidelines and they needed to follow those guidelines. They added blood meal to maintain the amount of protein without the additional calcium and phosphorus for growing large breed puppies. Not all formulas are all life stages, though. The blood meal which is the same information I had received previously is from chickens that are slaughtered for the dog food. They will get back to me as why they added the vegetable oil and tetra sodium pyrophosphate in their micro ingredients.


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> I had called victor and wanted to share the information I was given. They wanted to changes some formulas -to all life stages. They had said AFFCO changes changed some of the standard guidelines and they needed to follow those guidelines. They added blood meal to maintain the amount of protein without the additional calcium and phosphorus for growing large breed puppies. Not all formulas are all life stages, though. The blood meal which is the same information I had received previously is from chickens that are slaughtered for the dog food. They will get back to me as why they added the vegetable oil and tetra sodium pyrophosphate in their micro ingredients.


The protein from animal sources went up in the Nutra Pro all life stages with the change.


----------



## Jenny720

Jax08 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had called victor and wanted to share the information I was given. They wanted to changes some formulas -to all life stages. They had said AFFCO changes changed some of the standard guidelines and they needed to follow those guidelines. They added blood meal to maintain the amount of protein without the additional calcium and phosphorus for growing large breed puppies. Not all formulas are all life stages, though. The blood meal which is the same information I had received previously is from chickens that are slaughtered for the dog food. They will get back to me as why they added the vegetable oil and tetra sodium pyrophosphate in their micro ingredients.
> 
> 
> 
> The protein from animal sources went up in the Nutra Pro all life stages with the change.
Click to expand...

 @Jax08 How interesting is that- wow. I really can’t say I’m much surprised though. They will have to modify their answer. Lol!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I was using Victors Hi Pro Plus mixed with another kibble, but I don't like the small size of the kibble for a large GSD. Any recommendations for a quality, large sized kibble that is readily available locally and not premium priced?


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> @Jax08 How interesting is that- wow. I really can’t say I’m much surprised though. They will have to modify their answer. Lol!


They should tell you how it's processed too. I'm curious how they balanced the minerals, vitamins and amino acids from the meat conga they removed.


----------



## Magwart

Chip Blasiole said:


> I was using Victors Hi Pro Plus mixed with another kibble, but I don't like the small size of the kibble for a large GSD. Any recommendations for a quality, large sized kibble that is readily available locally and not premium priced?



I don't know what you consider "large sized" for kibble, but Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete is about 32% protein and looks like normal kibble to me. It's just over $40/bag for 40 pounds. You should be able to find it at feed stores, TSC, or mom-and-pop boutiques -- or on Chewy.com. We use this one with foster dogs that need to gain weight or that have very fast metabolism, and it feeds out pretty well for the price.



If you are liking how the Victor with small kibble feeds out, you could try using a slow-feed bowl (or even turning a steel no-tip bowl upside down and putting the food in the steel outer ring). That might at least slow the dog down if it's gulping and not chewing.


----------



## Jenny720

@Jax08 I will ask - good questions Michelle.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Magwart,
Thanks for the info. I don't think slowing down my dog's eating behavior would work and the Victor kibble is so small for a large dog, being close to the size of a pencil eraser. I called Diamond and they said the kibble size of the extreme athlete is about the diameter of a dime and about two dimes thick, which would have a larger surface area. I don't know why the trend has been to go to smaller and smaller kibble sizes with large breed dog foods. The other kibble I feed is an average, grain free food, pea and fish protein based food, so the rice in the Diamond would compensate for lack of grain and the pea protein. I also found it close by at TSC. I know Diamond has had at least three recalls, but I would think that might be an advantage in that, in order to stay in business, their QC would have to be very good. I used their product in the past and was satisfied, but stopped after the first recall. I can't see paying $55-$60 for 30 pounds of kibble and would rather use that money to buy real food.


----------



## Colorado

Chip Blasiole said:


> I can't see paying $55-$60 for 30 pounds of kibble and would rather use that money to buy real food.


Don't ever look into Orijen. :grin2:

(A 25lb bag is $90+. I can almost get frozen raw food for that price.)


----------



## Katsugsd

mmags said:


> I think moving forward I will be going with Muenster dog food, it is also made in Texas and they own their own manufacturing plant. No recalls and the owner frequently replies to customers himself and posts on their facebook. Their ingredients and formulas are equal if not better to Victor, grain inclusive and grain free. Beaverdam will also be in my rotation.


 
I am feeding Muenster Milling Ancient Grains Ocean Fish flavor to my two GSDs. First food they've both had solid stools on. Only down side I've had is that they've got fish breath  and the kibble is tiny. The calhos ratio is okay for growing puppies.


----------



## Jenny720

I have not heard from Victor I did put a second call in she is waiting to here back from the nutrionist. 

Muenster Milling Ancient grains looks good and in protein and price range. I have never seen the food at my feed store ever hopefully they can get it to try it.


----------



## Jax08

If I were feeding kibble to a working dog and wanted to switch, I'd go with Redpaw.


----------



## Kazel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Magwart,
> Thanks for the info. I don't think slowing down my dog's eating behavior would work and the Victor kibble is so small for a large dog, being close to the size of a pencil eraser. I called Diamond and they said the kibble size of the extreme athlete is about the diameter of a dime and about two dimes thick, which would have a larger surface area. I don't know why the trend has been to go to smaller and smaller kibble sizes with large breed dog foods. The other kibble I feed is an average, grain free food, pea and fish protein based food, so the rice in the Diamond would compensate for lack of grain and the pea protein. I also found it close by at TSC. I know Diamond has had at least three recalls, but I would think that might be an advantage in that, in order to stay in business, their QC would have to be very good. I used their product in the past and was satisfied, but stopped after the first recall. I can't see paying $55-$60 for 30 pounds of kibble and would rather use that money to buy real food.


What don't you like about the small size? Smaller pieces are easier to digest and since they're easier to digest especially if the dog is chewing they won't swell up as much in the stomach which I think could reduce the risk of bloat or similar issues from dried kibble swelling up in the stomach. Also, less of a choking risk because they are so small.


----------



## Jenny720

Jax08 said:


> If I were feeding kibble to a working dog and wanted to switch, I'd go with Redpaw.



Cool! I will have to check out thanks!


----------



## Mei

Chip Blasiole said:


> I was using Victors Hi Pro Plus mixed with another kibble, but I don't like the small size of the kibble for a large GSD. Any recommendations for a quality, large sized kibble that is readily available locally and not premium priced?


Victor's Hi Pro plus is a bit larger than most kibbles. At least that's my experience swapping between Victor and TOTW. TOTW is a lot smaller kibble in size.


----------



## crittersitter

Colorado said:


> Don't ever look into Orijen. :grin2:
> 
> (A 25lb bag is $90+. I can almost get frozen raw food for that price.)



Yep. I had to laugh at that being expensive. The last bag of 24 pound food I bought was over $80 and I have 3 dogs to feed. :grin2:


----------



## crittersitter

Jenny720 said:


> I have not heard from Victor I did put a second call in she is waiting to here back from the nutrionist.
> 
> Muenster Milling Ancient grains looks good and in protein and price range. I have never seen the food at my feed store ever hopefully they can get it to try it.



It looks comparable to Victor's old choices and I see that you can shop online at their store with free shipping over $49.


----------



## Jenny720

@crittersitter It is a good price nice to see they have free shipping. Redpaw pricey different formulas does have free shipping to. I do like to change rotate their foods.


----------



## tc68

Thanks for the head's up, mmags. And thanks Jenny720 for going the extra mile. I know we all want the best for our dogs but sometimes I think we react too quickly. Quick, let's change foods because one plant in another part of the country has forced a recall for the whole brand. Or...Oh no, they changed the ingredients, change the food.

I'm with Jax. I'll change if I feel a need to. Victor has been a good food so far. If they have to change their ingredients a little, I'm sure they've done the research to find it safe for our dogs. Now if my dog suddenly starts getting diarrhea or he develops allergies, then I'll change.


----------



## crittersitter

I know a lot of people are loyal to Victor Foods here, perhaps to a fault in this case. One would have to ask WHY in the world would Victor move PEAS higher on the ingredient list of their grain free foods and add garbanzo beans in some in light of the Dilated Cardiomyopathy issue associated with those ingredients? Also, I would've preferred that they raise their prices and keep the quality proteins they had in their formulas that their customers had become to rely on rather than adding more blood meal to the formulas in an attempt to save money. It does not show good judgement IMO, especially the legumes thing.


----------



## tc68

crittersitter said:


> I know a lot of people are loyal to Victor Foods here, perhaps to a fault in this case. One would have to ask WHY in the world would Victor move PEAS higher on the ingredient list of their grain free foods and add garbanzo beans in some in light of the Dilated Cardiomyopathy issue associated with those ingredients? Also, I would've preferred that they raise their prices and keep the quality proteins they had in their formulas that their customers had become to rely on rather than adding more blood meal to the formulas in an attempt to save money. It does not show good judgement IMO, especially the legumes thing.


This isn't about loyalty. This is about being cautious and not so quick to change at drop of a dime. I've only been using Victor for a year, so what loyalty do I really have for the brand? If it is about loyalty, I would've stuck with TOTW Pacific, or RCGSD, or any number of other brands. I'm just tired of changing foods every time there's a recall, or a small bit of news of some study that someone did, or price changes, or etc. It's already hard enough to find a food that my dog will actually eat, that he's not allergic to, that it's not hard to get, and that it's not ridiculously expensive. I'm sure Victor is aware of the DC issue and I'm sure they did their own studies and found that their new formula is safe or else why would they sell it and risk their reputation and company on it? Anyway, you're free to change foods, but don't assume that the reason the rest of us aren't changing is because of "loyalty."


----------



## Jax08

tc68 said:


> This isn't about loyalty. This is about being cautious and not so quick to change at drop of a dime. I've only been using Victor for a year, so what loyalty do I really have for the brand? If it is about loyalty, I would've stuck with TOTW Pacific, or RCGSD, or any number of other brands. I'm just tired of changing foods every time there's a recall, or a small bit of news of some study that someone did, or price changes, or etc. It's already hard enough to find a food that my dog will actually eat, that he's not allergic to, that it's not hard to get, and that it's not ridiculously expensive. I'm sure Victor is aware of the DC issue and I'm sure they did their own studies and found that their new formula is safe or else why would they sell it and risk their reputation and company on it? Anyway, you're free to change foods, but don't assume that the reason the rest of us aren't changing is because of "loyalty."


Amen to that. The only brands I'm loyal to are brands, Seger, Faren and Meeka. Weird that people want to claim others are blindly loyal for not freaking. Judgey Judgey. :nono::rofl:

I watched people jump on the grain free bandwagon. I fed grain free food for awhile and my dog did terrible on it. All peas, sweet potato and squashes. Lots of fiber for huge, stinky, poops. Change out one non meat item with protein for another based on panic over the wheat contamination, internet chatter and zero science. Look where that got them. 

People freak over corn and yet one of the best foods out there for working dogs is Redpaw, formulated by mushers for maximum stamina (Redpaw also uses blood meal). Every dog I've seen that eats it look phenomenal, packed with muscle and can work all day. 

Blood meal - I looked up the nutritional content. High protein, 1:1 calcium/phos. So they can add this, get the appropriate protein content without jacking the cal/phos. ratio. And have more control over what vitamins/minerals/amino acids need to be balanced because blood meal has little vitamins/minerals. Anyone that has ever tried to balance a meal for dogs based on NRC guidelines feels my pain on this. BTW...a friend is a dog food rep. Victor is a competing brand. She told me Victor was one of the best on the market because of their vitamin pack. She said that about a competing brand.:wink2:

And as a side note on protein - studies by Cornell vets have shown that a protein percentage over 30% actually decreases stamina in working dogs. 

As far as having more peas and adding chick peas (which btw has a very low glycemic index so if they added the garbanzo beans in place of some of the peas that is a good thing), what are their percentages of the legumes in their food based on the other well known, highly touted foods? I would like to see a side by side comparison of percentages. Give me numbers and studies and longevity.

And, if the taurine issue is a concern, why are people even still feeding grain free if the dog has no allergies to grain? No judgement there. I'm truly curious on the logic. They still don't even know what is causing this. Zero concrete answers, only theories. One of which is that people are feeding the wrong food for the calories required by the specific dog so the dog is being fed less than the recommended amount on the bag. Maybe the grain free foods have higher calorie or carb content so people are feeding less thinking they are doing the best thing for their dog? Nobody knows for sure yet.


----------



## dogfaeries

My thoughts exactly! (Thanks for writing all that Jax08, so I didn’t have to). I’ve got to go get a bag of dog food today. The only thing I’m changing right now is the size of the bag - going smaller since I have one less dog.


----------



## Colorado

What frustrates me about these changes (and what other brands do too--this is not limited to Victor) is the reason they are done. This is not what happened:

Meeting between executives and nutritionists: "Hey we are having trouble producing a balanced healthy food. We've conducted a bunch of studies and discovered blood meal lets us adjust things in an optimal way. Yeah it costs more to use but for the sake of a good product, we highly suggest we alter the formula to replace some of the primary proteins with blood meal." "Sounds good, make it happen."

Instead this is what happened:

Executives in a meeting by themselves. "Margins are down. What's happening?" "Meat costs continue to rise." "Can we source meat from China?" "No, that would be a marketing disaster." "OK. Go tell the nutritionists they have to alter the formula to bring down production costs by 13.7%."
Nutritionists after getting the edict from management. "Crap, what can we do?" "Well we could substitute blood meal for some of the primary proteins. Blood meal is cheap in comparison." "What about marketing?" "It sounds better than byproducts or sourced from China." "OK, I guess it is the best we can do. Make it so."

It is fine if Victor is still a good dog food but switching from Victor because of this has nothing to do with brand loyalty or lack of it. This was a change to keep costs down not done out of a desire to improve the quality of the product.


----------



## Jax08

Well...when my cats kill a mouse, bird or rabbit, I never find any evidence of blood so I"m assuming they eat that and these creatures like to have dinner on my porch so I would notice. Luckily, my dogs have not killed anything so I don't know what they do with the blood. 

I wasn't in any meeting for Victor dog food so I can't speak for what was said but IMO, if the nutrition and quality is still there so my dogs still do well on it, and they are trying to keep their prices in a range where normal people can still purchase their product rather than a huge jump in price, more power to them.

And just an FYI...some formulas had such small changes that it should make zero difference in the quality. Beef and rice - one grain was added in front of the pork meal. Protein content went up 1%. That is to small to even notice. Previously 68% protein from meat, now 77%.

Nutro Pro contained blood meal prior to the change. I just took a picture of the bag I have. It was the 4th ingredient, now it's the second. Previously it was 10% protein from grains and veges. Now it's 8% from grains and proteins. Same ingredients, different order.


----------



## crittersitter

Obviously it's your choice to feed the newly formulated Victor or not, loyal (who'd a thought that word would make so many people defensive) to Victor or not. But those that are concerned about the change in formulas should read this: https://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/newsevents/cvmupdates/ucm613305.htm


----------



## crittersitter

I did not say people were "blindly loyal", as you quoted. And yes it is my judgement based on what I've seen on this forum over the years that SOME people will remain loyal to Victor and defend whatever changes they make. We are all entitled to our own opinions which by the way are "judgements" based on the facts we see.


----------



## Jax08

LOL Nobody is defensive. Our point is that making a choice to not drop a food based on internet chatter does not make us "loyal...perhaps to a fault" (there I actually DID quote you, before I did a translation based on the implication of your sentence  )

BTW...I feed raw to my working dogs. I feed Victor to the Husky and use Victor for training. So definitely no "loyalty" here.

General Post:

Per my friend, who works in the animal food industry, AAFCO made changes in the way things are being labeled. Many foods are having to change their ingredient list so it appears different but there are zero changes to the food. So when you look at your food, Victor or not, make sure you contact the company directly and not just take the word of internet chatter.


----------



## Jake78

I used Victor Lamb and Rice bcs when ours was young, it was the only thing that didn't give him loose poop. After a year and a half we just switched from them even before I heard this, as a trial just for pure cost. Wolfgang won't eat any dry without it being topped with hot chicken so we went to Costco beef formula, since he's already chowing down a whole Costco rotisserie chicken per week anyway on top of his dry. So far so good with the poop situation.


----------



## tc68

crittersitter said:


> Obviously it's your choice to feed the newly formulated Victor or not, loyal (who'd a thought that word would make so many people defensive) to Victor or not. But those that are concerned about the change in formulas should read this: https://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/newsevents/cvmupdates/ucm613305.htm


I'm concerned with the changes too. Didn't say I wasn't. But I'm not so fickle. If my dog doesn't do well on the new formula, yes, I will change. But until then, I'll stick with Victor only because my dog likes it. Have you ever had a dog that is very picky about what he likes to eat? And on top of that, you had to go through 10 different brands/formulas before you find one that he likes to eat. How about this...when your dog doesn't like the food and he won't eat? Then you're constantly worried about it getting enough food to stay healthy. And when it doesn't eat, it won't have a regular poop schedule. Then you're waking up at odd hours to take it out because he won't go at his usual times.

Loyalty is usually a positive word. So when you used it as a fault, how can people not be defensive?! You may not have used the words "blindly loyal," but you certainly did imply it. This isn't about loyalty to Victor. This is about convenience and here's the phrase you hear a lot in the dog food world, "going with what works." Right now, it's working for my dog.


----------



## Jenny720

People should call the company direct to get information they need about any common concerns they may have, after any changes made in the food they feed. I also use Fromm and I had call them in the past a few times. It can be then decided what you want to do when you get those answers whether they are the ones you want or not. I’m always looking for additional foods to rotate with and to accommodate my dogs with what they need and fit into my budget at the time. I do not like feeding the same thing on a consistent basis there is no perfect kibble. 

I did call again today. I was told the exact same thing that was told to me the previous two times- that I had already mentioned in past post. In addition - the tetrasodium pyrophosphate and vegetable oil was an added addition to their formula to make improvements. The blood is removed and processed with the chickens using a high heat. Vitamin packs are used in their formula to balance vitamins and minerals which are sourced in the USA.


----------



## mmags

Jax08 said:


> The protein from animal sources went up in the Nutra Pro all life stages with the change.


The animal protein increase is only because of the increased use of blood meal in the products, not because they are actually using more meat. I didnt mind blood meal in some of the formulas but now they are just overusing it as a means to still claim certain protein percentages without actually using meat meals. Blood meal is a cheap way that still appears as protein just like a meat meal when tested due to the amino acids present. But it is not the same and too much could cause organ stress due to the extreme amount of iron, phosphorus, and other things.


----------



## mmags

dogfaeries said:


> Which formulas in both brands are you interested in?


Rotating all of the Ancient grains formulas as well as the large breed from Muenster. And for Beaverdam ill do the high energy 26/18.


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> People should call the company direct to get information they need about any common concerns they may have, after any changes made in the food they feed. I also use Fromm and I had call them in the past a few times. It can be then decided what you want to do when you get those answers whether they are the ones you want or not. I’m always looking for additional foods to rotate with and to accommodate my dogs with what they need and fit into my budget at the time. I do not like feeding the same thing on a consistent basis there is no perfect kibble.
> 
> I did call again today. I was told the exact same thing that was told to me the previous two times- that I had already mentioned in past post. In addition - the tetrasodium pyrophosphate and vegetable oil was an added addition to their formula to make improvements. The blood meal is processed with the chickens using a high heat. Vitamin packs are used in their formula to balance vitamins and minerals which are sourced in the USA.


I suspect that the labeling changes are driving the whole blood meal order in the ingredients. My understanding, from a conversation with someone actuallt working in the industry, is If the blood is in the chicken then it has to be listed seperately now. Weird rules on when they can say water and when they can broth. The high heat, per the info I read over the weekend, would make the blood meal all but useless and would not increase the protein levels in the food. The increase in grains over veges might though. 

Did they say if they actually changed their formulas other than the oil and tetrasodium. Personally, I add corn oil to Seger's food when he's trialing for the fat so vege oil doesn't bother me at all. And it could be they have to list thst instead of saying vitamin e, which comes from vegetable oils.


----------



## Jax08

mmags said:


> The only reason the animal protein content went up is due to the increased use of blood meal, not any meat meal products. I didnt mind blood meal in some of their formulas but now they are overusing it to still be able to claim certain protein percentages without actually using meat.



It went up 2%. Was it due to the blood meal? Did you call and ask? Or are you assuming? And again, if they need to increase the protein just slightly without creating and imbalance of other nutrients/minerals, there is nothing wrong with that. 

Blood meal is no more evil than poultry by-products that are necks/hearts/feet/livers/etc. All things I feed to my dogs as part of their meals. And if blood meal is processed in high heat then it's rendered virtually inert per the nutritional information I found, in that case it added nothing but still has to be listed as an ingredient.

*Bottom line is...to each their own. I will again advise people to call the manufacturer, with the added knowledge of label changes required by the AAFCO, to verify what exactly was changed and why.*


----------



## dogfaeries

mmags said:


> Rotating all of the Ancient grains formulas as well as the large breed from Muenster. And for Beaverdam ill do the high energy 26/18.




I’m always interested in adding a food into the rotation. Thanks!


----------



## Jenny720

@Jax08 The does makes sense with the blood meal and high heat. I can understand this view especially at the same time in regards to labeling especially after all the dogs with food related or unknown cardiomyopathy. AAFCO would up set higher guide lines which is good to know. It is a bit more upsetting if ingredients are not listed even if minut- I’m not sure how that is decided. Is that the norm in dog food companies - I feel like I need to become a biophysicist/nutrionist / chemist myself to see what determines this. When i did pick up a bag of food Saturday, the owner of my local feed store Was a bit baffled when I asked about the food. They were not notified of any changes and always are so that all started to made much sense -what you had mentioned.
I am very careful as I can be to use the staff’s words at Victors words by verbatim. I do urge people to call and ask questions also. They did say change and a few times. It was said they always put the ingriedents listed on the bag regardless whether that is the political answer-could be and makes sense. I would rather them be upfront if that is not the case above all else. I don’t know why they put tetrasodium pyrophospate in the food or was it fact in there to begin with. I am still trying to learn the best about my foods and skin care etc. what safe what’s not back different views. It can be a challenge to like everything they put in something -even my favorite things in case with many variables. I do now make sure I change things up even if I like everything in it.


----------



## Jax08

@Jenny720. Thank you for calling! I'm swamped at work right now and cant.


----------



## theajackson

Thanks for the heads up! What will you be switching to?


----------



## Jenny720

@Jax08 sure!


----------



## Katsugsd

mmags said:


> Rotating all of the Ancient grains formulas as well as the large breed from Muenster. And for Beaverdam ill do the high energy 26/18.


A warning for Muenster's Large Breed formula - the kibble size is rather large if you haven't seen it yet. Maybe a Nickle/Quarter sized disc. Makes it easier to train with in a way. I would have kept with it but the fish formula works best for my two.


----------



## NancyJ

I have been feeding Victor (primarily the high energy formula) for a number of years and it is the first food that gave Beau solid stools and a slick coat. I talked with them about the changes too and will watch for impact when the food comes out. The blood meal does not bother me, particularly if it gives a better calciumhosphorus ratio. The removal of flax DELIGHTS me. .....

I have had excellent blood panels on the food and will continue to test annually and evaluate knowing that changes have occurred. The vegetable oil is very low on the list and, I also do add fish oil to the dogs' diet.

EDIT: FWIW they did tell me they plan on putting the General Analysis back up on the page once they have enough batches of the new formula go through testing to get typical numbers


----------



## iswantoseo

*blood meal*

would make the blood meal all but useless and would not increase the protein levels in the food


----------



## NancyJ

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I add corn oil to Seger's food when he's trialing for the fat so vege oil doesn't bother me at all. And it could be they have to list thst instead of saying vitamin e, which comes from vegetable oils.


Interesting! Corn Oil (high in linoleic) is good for energy burn and for detection dogs (studies on that one with working dogs) I add grapeseed oil (also high in linoleic but no GMO risk and I use for high temp cooking because it is quite heat stable) in addition to the grapeseed as they can get a little dandruffy even with the high fat formula.

My dogs tend to do better on beef and most dog foods are chicken based. Beef tends to burn cooler than chicken (even though lamb and venison burn hot) I like having three protein sources in the food as well so not jonesing to run away particularly now that they got rid of that flax (which goes rancid very fast - so much that in my house I grind flax seeds in a grinder immediately before I consume them) and dogs get little benefit from ALA in the first place. Rather give the DHA and EPA from a quaility fish oil.


----------



## Jax08

NancyJ said:


> Interesting! Corn Oil (high in linoleic) is good for energy burn and for detection dogs (studies on that one with working dogs) I add grapeseed oil (also high in linoleic but no GMO risk and I use for high temp cooking because it is quite heat stable) in addition to the grapeseed as they can get a little dandruffy even with the high fat formula.
> 
> My dogs tend to do better on beef and most dog foods are chicken based. Beef tends to burn cooler than chicken (even though lamb and venison burn hot) I like having three protein sources in the food as well so not jonesing to run away particularly now that they got rid of that flax (which goes rancid very fast - so much that in my house I grind flax seeds in a grinder immediately before I consume them) and dogs get little benefit from ALA in the first place. Rather give the DHA and EPA from a quaility fish oil.


I use grapeseed for cooking. But I never gave it to the dogs because I wasn't sure it wasn't toxic to them.

Yrah...very few dogs can convert ALA. I read a study on the years ago and I think I posted it on Val's board.


----------



## Jax08

NancyJ said:


> Interesting! Corn Oil (high in linoleic) is good for energy burn and for detection dogs (studies on that one with working dogs) I add grapeseed oil (also high in linoleic but no GMO risk and I use for high temp cooking because it is quite heat stable) in addition to the grapeseed as they can get a little dandruffy even with the high fat formula.
> 
> My dogs tend to do better on beef and most dog foods are chicken based. Beef tends to burn cooler than chicken (even though lamb and venison burn hot) I like having three protein sources in the food as well so not jonesing to run away particularly now that they got rid of that flax (which goes rancid very fast - so much that in my house I grind flax seeds in a grinder immediately before I consume them) and dogs get little benefit from ALA in the first place. Rather give the DHA and EPA from a quaility fish oil.


I use grapeseed for cooking. But I never gave it to the dogs because I wasn't sure it wasn't toxic to them.

Yrah...very few dogs can convert ALA. I read a study on the years ago and I think I posted it on Val's board.


----------



## Keisha1

I know a lot of people think that Orijen is too expensive but since it is so nutrient dense with real ingredients, you feed so much less and it really does not end up being that much more. They dont have to add a bunch of vitamin supplements that the body doesn’t absorb well because their ingredients are so amazing the food is complete- I swear by Orijen!! And the company and customer service is amazing as well!!


----------



## Magwart

Keisha1, have you been following the changes in Orijen over time? Truth About Pet Food did a really eye-opening piece on it not long ago:
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/is-change-in-pet-food-a-good-thing/


----------



## NancyJ

GrapeSEED oil is not toxic even though the grape skins etc are. It is actually quite a good source of vitamin E.

RE Orijen - I tried this food with my own dogs a few years back and was not pleased with the results and waiting it out did not produce good stools. When they started adding legumes, it reinforced my own concerns........


----------



## car2ner

I wonder about the entire Legume thing. Peanuts are legumes and yet we've been advocating peanutbutter for our dogs as long as I can remember. I was wondering if it were the potatoes in grain-free, which is a nightshade.


----------



## Jax08

NancyJ said:


> GrapeSEED oil is not toxic even though the grape skins etc are. It is actually quite a good source of vitamin E.
> 
> ........


Great to know! Thankz!


----------



## Kazel

car2ner said:


> I wonder about the entire Legume thing. Peanuts are legumes and yet we've been advocating peanutbutter for our dogs as long as I can remember. I was wondering if it were the potatoes in grain-free, which is a nightshade.


They're saying it may be potatoes and legumes. It could be peas and such have some different things in them than peanuts do. But even if they don't we don't feed the dogs peanut butter for every meal. An occasional treat is different from constantly taking something in at high quantities which is what some of the grain free diets are doing with peas etc.


----------



## Jax08

They are also saying that it may be caused by not feeding the food with the correct calories per cup for the dog so the dog is deficient due to being feed less than the recommended amount. They do not know what is causing the heart issues, only the correlation.


----------



## Kazel

Jax08 said:


> They are also saying that it may be caused by not feeding the food with the correct calories per cup for the dog so the dog is deficient due to being feed less than the recommended amount. They do not know what is causing the heart issues, only the correlation.


I think as of right now they're pretty sure something is blocking taurine absorption. Because the dogs can have adequate taurine but don't absorb any of it. So just supplementing or feeding more doesn't help the dog get better because taurine absorption is actively being blocked. But maybe there are multiple causes resulting in the same condition?


----------



## Jax08

Kazel said:


> I think as of right now they're pretty sure something is blocking taurine absorption. Because the dogs can have adequate taurine but don't absorb any of it. So just supplementing or feeding more doesn't help the dog get better because taurine absorption is actively being blocked. But maybe there are multiple causes resulting in the same condition?


Do you have documentation of that? 

If please post it in the DCM thread so the yopic ofbtjis thread isnt changed . The last official documentation I read had several theories but no answer.


----------



## Saco

I wonder if it is something totally unrelated. Given the breed commonalities I wonder if it's a genetic predisposition, only. 

Affluent people tend to feed specialty foods. So far, findings may only prove correlation between being more wealthy, owning a purebred that wealthy people in suburbs tend toward, and feeding "the best" food possible. Perhaps rich golden retriever owners are all buying from somewhat common lines that carry an as yet unknown genetic propensity to DCM.

Just throwing that out there...but I think it could make sense.


----------



## Jax08

Saco said:


> I wonder if it is something totally unrelated. Given the breed commonalities I wonder if it's a genetic predisposition, only.
> 
> Affluent people tend to feed specialty foods. So far, findings may only prove correlation between being more wealthy, owning a purebred that wealthy people in suburbs tend toward, and feeding "the best" food possible. Perhaps rich golden retriever owners are all buying from somewhat common lines that carry an as yet unknown genetic propensity to DCM.
> 
> Just throwing that out there...but I think it could make sense.


I definitely think there is a genetic component.


----------



## Kazel

Saco said:


> I wonder if it is something totally unrelated. Given the breed commonalities I wonder if it's a genetic predisposition, only.
> 
> Affluent people tend to feed specialty foods. So far, findings may only prove correlation between being more wealthy, owning a purebred that wealthy people in suburbs tend toward, and feeding "the best" food possible. Perhaps rich golden retriever owners are all buying from somewhat common lines that carry an as yet unknown genetic propensity to DCM.
> 
> Just throwing that out there...but I think it could make sense.


They have been finding it in mutts and other breeds and diet changes have reversed it. 

In the articles I've read they have mentioned that certain breeds may already have issues with taurine and so are more sensitive to foods causing issues with taurine whether it be from not containing enough or whatever is going on. But the emphasis on that is that they are higher risk for developing it and/or maybe just develop it sooner than other dogs would on the same diet but it's still the diet causing issues.


----------



## Magwart

Kazel said:


> In the articles I've read they have mentioned that certain breeds may already have issues with taurine and so are more sensitive to foods causing issues with taurine whether it be from not containing enough or whatever is going on. But the emphasis on that is that they are higher risk for developing it and/or maybe just develop it sooner than other dogs would on the same diet but it's still the diet causing issues.


Actually, if you read the actual science journal article (as opposed to internet articles putting a spin on it), there is no proof of causation as to any ingredients yet. It's just correlation. And reverse causation and spurious correlation haven't been ruled out yet in the published veterinary research. Confounding variables are also possibly in play.

The UC Davis researchers' article was preliminary and speculative IMHO. They have nothing -- literally nothing -- but correlation and hypothesis. Breed, gut flora, amount fed, and ingredients are all on the table for the researchers, and the best GUESS is it will be some constellation of multiple of these, but it could yet end up being unrelated. The people researching the problem haven't identified causation yet. That hasn't stopped Internet nobodies (and even some vet nutritionists on the payroll of certain food companies) from claiming to know things the UC Davis researchers working on the problem don't actually know though.

Play with the Google doc spreadsheet and control for Goldens to filter them out to see for yourself how complex this is. Some of the remaining mutts are Golden Doodles. Then there's not much left. I found working with the data filters is enormously eye opening.


To put it into perspective as to why diet doesn't necessarily equal across-the-board causation when there are underlying genetics potentially in play, think about Celiac disease. I eat gluten daily. I love bread, and I delight in gluten-containing grains. My genes reflect generations of wheat-eaters in Europe. I digest it well, and it agrees with me. Whole grains with gluten are a staple in my diet -- I'm happy to eat a bowl of cooked wheatberries or bulgur. What makes me thrive though would make someone with Celiac very ill. It's not that wheat bread causes illness uniformly, but rather that some humans can't digest the gluten in it. Same with lactose intolerance. I don't think it would be all that surprising if there's something like that going on in the dog world -- we know they're sometimes pretty individual in the food they do best on, so maybe there's a gene we don't yet know about that is not playing well with some ingredient in kibble in a few of them. All hypothesis....but food for thought!


----------



## Jax08

@Magwart - yup. You read what I read.


----------



## Arathorn II

Can someone give me the TLDR version of this thread? Should I continue using Victor?


----------



## Magwart

LOL, Arathorn -- depends whom you ask:


Version 1: They added more legumes and took critical nutritional info off the website, so they seem to be hiding something; it might kill my dog by giving it a heart disease that the FDA warned about being linked to legumes in dog food; I must find a replacement food without legumes because I don't trust this company any longer.


Version 2: I called and talked to Victor, found out changes were minimal, necessary to appease AAFCO due to a rule change, and the website info will come back in a few weeks after the lab verifies it; nobody's proven any ingredient connection with that FDA warning and I'm not buying into Internet scare mongering until there's solid science supporting it; I still trust them, so I'm going to keep feeding it as long as it keeps agreeing with my dogs.


You must decide for yourself whether it's working for your dog, where you fall on the legume controversy, and how it works for your dog. Reasonable people here are coming to different conclusions.


----------



## NancyJ

Magwart said:


> LOL, Arathorn -- depends whom you ask:
> 
> 
> Version 1: They added more legumes and took critical nutritional info off the website, so they seem to be hiding something; it might kill my dog by giving it a heart disease that the FDA warned about being linked to legumes in dog food; I must find a replacement food without legumes because I don't trust this company any longer.
> 
> 
> Version 2: I called and talked to Victor, found out changes were minimal, necessary to appease AAFCO due to a rule change, and the website info will come back in a few weeks after the lab verifies it; nobody's proven any ingredient connection with that FDA warning and I'm not buying into Internet scare mongering until there's solid science supporting it; I still trust them, so I'm going to keep feeding it as long as it keeps agreeing with my dogs.
> 
> 
> You must decide for yourself whether it's working for your dog, where you fall on the legume controversy, and how it works for your dog. Reasonable people here are coming to different conclusions.


Not all Victor dog food contains legumes to clarify - only the Grain free products.


----------



## Jenny720

My pet feed store still carries the original bag of victor right now so I happy. I noticed even the original fromm bag when they made some changes. They must have huge stock.


----------



## Jenny720

Is there anyone feeding the new victor- happy or have complaints?


----------



## NancyJ

I am about 3 days away from breaking into the new bag but am actually happy with the changes they made so we will see


----------



## Soldes

Switched from Fromm to Victor about 3 months ago, because my dog got disinterested with the former. Ever since then, he eats all his meals, and seems to enjoy it much more. Got 2 big bags recently, and noticed no difference in his appetite and demeanor towards it. Victor and its sensible price compare to others, has worked for us, and unless there are reports base on factual evidence; or issues with this product and its new formulation, we are not changing his current food. :|


----------



## Ken Clean-Air System

My dogs have both done very well on all the Victor formulas we have tried. I've fed Hi-Pro Plus, Ultra Pro and am currently feeding Nutra Pro. They have done equally well on all of them.

I, personally, see no reason to consider switching foods at this point. Fact is, Victor is still a privately owned company that manufactures their own foods and has an unblemished record for quality control. They have been around for many years, have always manufactured their own foods, and have never had a recall. Unless I see this change, or my dogs no longer do as well as they do on their foods, I don't see any reason to change.

My local feed and supply store, which is where I buy their foods, still has the old bags/formulas in their supply chain. We just opened a 40 pound bag of Nutra Pro a few days ago, so it will be a little while before I see the reformulated version. I don't anticipate it being an issue when we switch to the reformulated version, but will update on our experience if there's a compelling reason to.


----------



## NancyJ

I am pretty well into the transition and was concerned the removal of monmorillonite clay would have an adverse impact on Beau's stools as it "seemed" to be the magic ingredient for him. So far I have noticed no change. He eats the 24/20 high energy blend. We do our annual blood panels in July but that won't really be enough time for assesment I don't think


----------



## tc68

Jenny720 said:


> Is there anyone feeding the new victor- happy or have complaints?


I just recently switched to the Pro formula (the formula that my breeder uses for her adult GSDs) from the Hero Canine formula and the Nutra Pro formula. He's on his first bag of that. I just ordered 2 more bags yesterday. The Pro formula is much cheaper at $45 per 40 lbs bag. Under 50 bucks, I don't get the free shipping so I had to order 2 bags. Hard to tell from just one bag, but so far so good. No problems. No diarrhea yet. Poops are good. No allergies. Dog is happy. Btw, I don't know if the Pro formula changed or not.


----------



## NancyJ

tc68 said:


> I just recently switched to the Pro formula (the formula that my breeder uses for her adult GSDs) from the Hero Canine formula and the Nutra Pro formula. He's on his first bag of that. I just ordered 2 more bags yesterday. The Pro formula is much cheaper at $45 per 40 lbs bag. Under 50 bucks, I don't get the free shipping so I had to order 2 bags. Hard to tell from just one bag, but so far so good. No problems. No diarrhea yet. Poops are good. No allergies. Dog is happy. Btw, I don't know if the Pro formula changed or not.


You know they added a 50lb bag that is cheaper by the pound and meets the $50 cut off if you are using Chewy. I think all the formulas changed - blood meal added in (allowed Ca to be lowered to get all life stages designation), monmorillonite clay removed, flax removed (yay), and they added millet to the grain mix. I would love to get the old general analysis but they have not sent it to me. I noticed calories dropped on the Hi Energy (which is basically the same formula, just a tad lower protein and higher fat)

LOL I have to laugh - people are all about how great Fromm is (hey its a good company) but while folks challenge the blood meal in Victor, they seem to not bat an eye at the cheese that is in every Fromm formula I have ever reviewed......


----------



## Colorado

NancyJ said:


> LOL I have to laugh - people are all about how great Fromm is (hey its a good company) but while folks challenge the blood meal in Victor, they seem to not bat an eye at the cheese that is in every Fromm formula I have ever reviewed......


I've decided that's because nutrition (dog, human, whatever) is more emotion and witchcraft than science. As an example, for humans, there are more and more reports coming out that high cholesterol is not linked to heart disease after all. And that includes the bad cholesterol. That one was considered an absolute fact. High (bad) cholesterol will kill you! Get tested at your doctor right away! Except maybe not after all.

What makes it worse is that people's views on nutrition is quasi based in science. If it is just opinions and feelings people can (sometimes) understand when someone else feels differently. But when someone takes the findings of an study that did not involve enough subjects to reach conclusions and reaches conclusions anyway they really, really believe. If someone suggests it might not be true they can point to the numbers! Nevermind that nutrition is insanely complicated and it is almost impossible for any study to be conclusive.


----------



## tc68

NancyJ said:


> You know they added a 50lb bag that is cheaper by the pound and meets the $50 cut off if you are using Chewy. I think all the formulas changed - blood meal added in (allowed Ca to be lowered to get all life stages designation), monmorillonite clay removed, flax removed (yay), and they added millet to the grain mix. I would love to get the old general analysis but they have not sent it to me. I noticed calories dropped on the Hi Energy (which is basically the same formula, just a tad lower protein and higher fat)
> 
> LOL I have to laugh - people are all about how great Fromm is (hey its a good company) but while folks challenge the blood meal in Victor, they seem to not bat an eye at the cheese that is in every Fromm formula I have ever reviewed......


Oh cr*p! I didn't even pay attention to that. If I knew, I would've ordered the 50lbs bag. I just did the easy "reorder" thing. I assumed the 40lbs bag was the big bag. Oh well. But at least the 40lbs bag fits in my container perfectly and I won't have to order for at least 2 months. Thanks NancyJ for informing me.


----------



## Jenny720

Thanks everyone. 

It does make sense what Colorado mentioned. That is why it is important to go by how your dog looks and feels and overall health. 
Fromm is a food I use in rotation it is a good company. The food has cheddar cheese listed pretty far down in the ingredient list so if it makes the food more edible and a good fatty acid I am okay with that.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I have 2 dogs on it and a boarder on it. I assume mine are eating the new stuff....I'm honestly not sure but they go thru it pretty fast and I am always getting new bags from Chewy. Things have been so crazy I couldn't swear if the bag is different or not....? 

My two and my boarder are doing great-- my boarder I suggested Victor to the owner to improve stools, and it has done that very well just like it did for my dogs.


----------



## NancyJ

Jenny720 said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> It does make sense what Colorado mentioned. That is why it is important to go by how your dog looks and feels and overall health.
> Fromm is a food I use in rotation it is a good company. The food has cheddar cheese listed pretty far down in the ingredient list so if it makes the food more edible and a good fatty acid I am okay with that.


Oh the cheese does not bother me. Just that people are all upset about blood meal (though I do gather some of the new hi pro formulas really use a lot of it); it is not so much in the classic formulas


----------



## BlitzTheGSD

Since ive started feeding the new Nutra Pro about 2 weeks ago my dog has had diarrhea. I talked to Victor who said the ingredient swap wouldnt cause that but his poops have been solid and dark since he was 8 weeks old and now just mush. I dont want to switch because every other food on the market is grain free, which I dont want to feed him, but if this lasts much longer I think im going to have to.


*I did call Victor and they told me all the blood meal is sourced from a local chicken farm


----------



## Jenny720

Every brand of food has grain free and grain options at least that’s what I have seen. I know max got sick once on fromm pork option I also bought from a different pet store. Could of been coincidence and got into something, rancid bag or just food. I still feed fromm in addition just not the pork recipe. Had not had any issues since. It could of been coincidence and gotten into something, change ingredients, a rancid bag Keep us posted. I can see it may be important to save original bag for the switch even with their strong stomachs just to be safe. They are on the high pro plus Thanks! Hope your boy feels better.


----------



## BlitzTheGSD

I know its grain free but whats the consensus on TOTW? Im thinking about possibly switching to the Pacific stream. We have a vet visit for Saturday so if they cant find any parasites or anything im going to switch the food up and see if that works.


----------



## NancyJ

BlitzTheGSD said:


> I know its grain free but whats the consensus on TOTW? Im thinking about possibly switching to the Pacific stream. We have a vet visit for Saturday so if they cant find any parasites or anything im going to switch the food up and see if that works.


I absolutely refuse to feed any Diamond Brands product anymore. Before one of the recalls I notified the company to a rancid batch of food that my dog would not eat and they told me it was "all good" well I trusted my dog more than the company and a month later that particular lot was part of a massive recall and horrible GMP issues in one of their facilities. I live in SC and I know that regulation is viewed pretty lightly down here.


----------



## MiaMia

Does anyone have a recommendation similar to Victor? On day 3 of the new formula and all 3 shepherds have diarrhea and 2 are vomiting.


----------



## dogfaeries

I’ve been feeding the new formula, and nothing has changed with my dogs. Dark, firm poop. Everything normal.


----------



## ausdland

MiaMia said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation similar to Victor? On day 3 of the new formula and all 3 shepherds have diarrhea and 2 are vomiting.


SportDogFood, Fromm, Annamaet


----------



## Jenny720

I still have not yet to see the new Victor dog food I did pick up a fromm bag a new recipe in the four star line that they came out with this month. It’s Highlander beef oats and barley although pricier then the gold I was feeding recently even more pricier then the fromm grain free - I used to feed which both their coats looked the absolute best on. I like the protein percentages on this new recipe though as it what I was looking for in the fromm line. Expensive though definitely spoiled with Victor prices. I picked up this new Fromm recipe and giving it a try in their rotation with victor. The dogs like the taste of both food. I am excited to see how they do on this new recipe. - interesting to see they took the alfalfa meal out. 
https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/four-star/dry/highlander-beef-oats-n-barley-recipe


----------



## Jenny720

For anyone feeding Victor old or new I had just stumbled upon an interesting Facebook group page on Victor’s new formulas. It’s worth a read many dogs can have sensitive systems or just not do well with the new food. It is interesting about some answers they got from the company though or non answers. 
https://m.facebook.com/groups/661385267652535?tsid=0.9680251550621419&source=result


----------



## BlitzTheGSD

So my pups tests came back negative. My vet told me to not freak out or change his food and give it a few more days, 2 days after that his poop went back hard and dark and hes been good ever since.. Maybe it was just the quick change but I guess it could have really been anything. Im glad because Ive really liked Victor but do think the ingredient swap was a little sheisty.


----------



## Jenny720

Glad all is well. Yes victor is a good food. I understand the new bag looks very similar to the old bag and it sounds like so many dogs are sick because owners are unaware of the change- from what little I can see. Some dogs loosing weight from the unknown calorie decrease. It would of been nice if they slapped on a new formula label and notified suppliers for a heads up and returned the many people’s phone calls and emails if not from the unavailable nutritionist but from someone at Victor. If owning a dog with a sensitive stomach or any dog - who really needs to go through that. Disappointing. Sport dog is another good quality food i will look into and add to my list. I see sport dog food and the family are pretty close by so good to support local business.


----------



## cowgrl70

I received information that Victor was a family owned business and brought in some investors. It was the investors that changed the formula so that they could save on money yet they also increased the prices. I am highly disappointed in and am looking at other options. Especially with the concerns circulating around grain-free foods and DCM (canine dilated cardiomyopathy). The only reason I had my dogs on grain free is because some of my previous dogs, whom have sinced passed, were on GF due to allergies. But a company being sneaky and deceptive is a totally different ball of wax.


----------



## Tiptx4

We were feeding our boy Victor chicken, brown rice and lamb, after having switched him from a GF Orijen formula late last year (yes, because that was when the initial reports of diet related DCM were starting to come out). We were satisfied with Victor, and our boy seemed to like it (he had a tendency to be a picky German Shepherd). The last shipment of Victor that we received was with the new formula (about a month to a month and a half ago), and we noticed that the ingredients/formula had been changed. Instead of chicken, chicken meal, and brown rice as their first ingredients, they are now chicken meal, grain sorghum and peas... Peas, a filler ingredient because it's probably cheaper to use... peas/legumes are also suspect to be a contributor to the increased cases of DCM (I understand, along with other dietary contributors). We immediately switched to another brand... why would we stay with a brand that was high quality that now has taken the best ingredients and substituted them for fillers? Coincidentally, peas/legumes as an ingredient were nowhere to be found in the pervious formula, so why now? 

On another note, when we initially switched to Victor, we were also feeding our boy the Hi Pro Plus formula. He went through one bag just fine, but as soon as we started him on a new bag, he immediately began vomiting, sometimes even before finishing his dish of food. We had vet visits and a bland diet for a week or so, slowly introducing his kibble back into his feedings. As soon as we reintroduced the Hi Pro Plus, the vomiting began again. I thought perhaps it could have been something with the batch (I also understand that maybe the formula just didn't agree with his stomach for whatever reason). In any event, I messaged the company to make them aware of the problem, just in case it was the batch and they perhaps had other incidences, and the reply I got was basically, "ok, thank you". Not a note of concern or question to be had from them, which I found to be somewhat disconcerting and insensitive on their part. We discontinued feeding the HPP, but continued with the CBRL formula and were satisfied with it.... until they changed, of course!


----------



## dogfaeries

That’s odd that the lamb and rice and the chicken and rice formulas have peas, but the beef and rice one doesn’t.


----------



## crittersitter

"The last shipment of Victor that we received was with the new formula (about a month to a month and a half ago), and we noticed that the ingredients/formula had been changed. Instead of chicken, chicken meal, and brown rice as their first ingredients, they are now chicken meal, grain sorghum and peas... Peas, a filler ingredient because it's probably cheaper to use... peas/legumes are also suspect to be a contributor to the increased cases of DCM"


What a pinheaded thing to do to up the peas in their formulas in the midst of the DCM issue. I've dismissed Victor for that reason alone.


----------



## bnice23

mmags said:


> Victor recently changed their packaging on all of their formulas but that was not the only change. Along with the new bags, all of the formulas have changed. All formulas now have blood meal due to a reduction in meat meal as a protein source. The grain free formulas have peas higher on the ingredient list. Some have now also added garbanzo beans into the ingredient list. Formulas like the Yukon salmon moved salmon out of the first few ingredients. All formulas also now have Tetra Sodium Pyrophosphate and Vegetable Oil in them. They have added the blood meal to still be able to claim the same protein levels while decreasing the amount of meat in them. Victor also removed the general analysis tab that they had on their website for each formula and now only have the guaranteed analysis. Calorie content per cup decreased on almost every formula as well. I am disappointed in the change in the brand and wanted to give others a heads up. It seems the popularity got to them and in order to keep prices the same they needed to modify the ingredients and in my opinion, downgrade. I will be switching.


Our GSD's started throwing up brown looking poop like substance a few months ago, but our lab/hound mix wasn't having any issues. We changed out the food for the Germans, and went on vacation and gave the new food to all 3 to keep it easy for the caretakers (no victor). When we got back we from vacation we started our lab/hound back on Victor and she too threw up the brown poop like substance. This dog in the 9 years we have had her has never thrown up! We called Chewy and they refunded our money, and told us to donate to a shelter. Not a chance of that. This food should be tested at a lab, as there is something profoundly wrong with it. Our GSD's have not puked since we changed the food and neither has our Squishy baby.


----------



## Magwart

bnice23 said:


> This food should be tested at a lab, as there is something profoundly wrong with it.


Your vet can arrange to send it out for testing for you. It costs around $100-150 for independent testing, as I recall.


----------



## Jax08

Chewy is only a store. Did you contact Victor directly?


----------



## Kris10

My ~6 m.o. puppy, Luke, has been doing very well on Victor Select beef meal and brown rice. The Victor Purpose senior healthy weight has really helped firm up Max’s stool. He has DM and had an odor (anal glands) that our last vet said was due to the decreased tone and sensation as the disease progressed. We decided to change foods to see if it would help, and it has- problem gone! They have both been eating Victor for several months, so we started it after the ingredient change. The senior formula does have peas, but it’s not very high on the ingredient list.


----------



## Jax08

I've been using Hi-Energy for training with my young dog for the past 16 months. Zero issues. Fed to other dogs for years prior and it helped one's digestive issues and another did very well on it.


----------



## BigOzzy2018

My pup is on Victor high energy no issues so sticking with it


----------



## IllinoisNative

I have one dog on Victor Hi-Pro Plus, and he does great. My other dog is on Earthborn Bison for food allergies.


----------



## Jax08

Really. If you have dogs getting sick and you suspect a bag of food then you need to take them to a vet, with the food to be tested, and contact the company directly. Not the store you bought it from. Posting a review saying the food *should *be tested means nothing and doesn't do anyone a service with an anecdotal post that has no proof attached.

That one bag of food could have gone bad in storage or the one batch could have something wrong with it. Or maybe the dogs continued to throw up while you were on vacation for 3 weeks and the caretakers didn't notice.


----------



## Sweet Stella

I'm a bit conflicted. I've been feeding my dogs Victor Hero Canine for a while now and it's been an unmitigated success. They freaking love the stuff, just annihilate it every feeding, by far their favorite kibble I've had them on and it's high in protein and includes joint supplements, which I like. Their stools are and have always been A+ on it. Not to mention I can buy 50 pound bags on Amazon which is very cost-effective. Honestly, I'm very happy with the food.

Then this whole issue came to my attention recently and it is Grain-Free and the 2nd and 3rd ingredients are peas and sweet potato (although the food also contains Taurine). I can't say I'm super concerned, as this whole issue isn't impacting GSD's much, seems to be very vaguely understood at this point -- also my dogs are incredibly healthy and I also give them raw meaty bones fairly consistently for variety and teeth health. I fed a previous dog who passed last summer his entire life grain-free with no issues, he lived a normal lifespan and was incredibly healthy for his breed (English Bulldog). He was born with a minor heart murmur too and it never progressed or was an issue through his life.

That said, I mean, if there's a possibility this could impact them, I suppose it's worth considering switching them off it. What say you? If so, any recommendations on kibble to consider? Thanks!


----------



## BigOzzy2018

If your dog’s are doing well on it why mess it up. It’s like if it’s not broke why fix it.


----------



## Ken Clean-Air System

If it concerns you to feed grain-free, then why not try a different Victor formula that isn't grain-free? Victor offers at least a couple formulas that are high protein that are not grain-free and contain no legumes or potatoes. Take a look at the Nutra Pro, and Hi Pro Plus formulas - both high protein, neither are grain-free. I've fed both and my dogs have both done fantastic on each. I currently feed the Nutra Pro formula.


----------



## tc68

IMHO, I don't think we need to be worried about grain free food...even with that study out. I mean, how many of us have fed generations of our dogs grain free food and nothing's happened? I fed my first one...grain free food for most of his life and in the end he died of something completely unrelated. All the study shows is that it's a possibility that grain free food might be giving dogs DCM. Nothing's definite. My opinion....keep feeding them Hero Canine since they love it so much. If you're really worried about it, Victor makes many non grain-free foods too. You can also write to Victor and ask them what their take on DCM and Hero Canine is. In fact if you do write to them, let us know what their response is.


----------



## truckerirish

mmags said:


> Victor recently changed their packaging on all of their formulas but that was not the only change. Along with the new bags, all of the formulas have changed. All formulas now have blood meal due to a reduction in meat meal as a protein source. The grain free formulas have peas higher on the ingredient list. Some have now also added garbanzo beans into the ingredient list. Formulas like the Yukon salmon moved salmon out of the first few ingredients. All formulas also now have Tetra Sodium Pyrophosphate and Vegetable Oil in them. They have added the blood meal to still be able to claim the same protein levels while decreasing the amount of meat in them. Victor also removed the general analysis tab that they had on their website for each formula and now only have the guaranteed analysis. Calorie content per cup decreased on almost every formula as well. I am disappointed in the change in the brand and wanted to give others a heads up. It seems the popularity got to them and in order to keep prices the same they needed to modify the ingredients and in my opinion, downgrade. I will be switching.


we have seven dogs who have eaten victor most of their lives no problem several days ago all of them refused to eat their food even put turkey broth in it still wouldn't eat much glad I ran across this article as it makes sense we were wondering if there was a change in formula now we know why they won't eat. guess we'll switch back to Diamond Naturals


----------



## Michele P

Still struggling but as the pieces come together the anger grows. Titan died from poisoning from his food. His food contained blood meal, in small quantities its a boost for protein in large it becomes poisonous. Titan was a big boy and so he ate a lot resulting in large quantities. His age of only 8 years old made it harder to fight it. His pancreas failed first then kidneys, then lungs and finally his heart. He suffered and didn't last 2 days once the symptoms showed up, he didn't make it to his appt we had made nor the er we were taking him to. We were told there would not have been any signs until the end. The other 2 dogs started vomiting this weekend as well and stopped eating the food. Now they are on bland diets to flush out the toxins and are improving. They follow up on the 14th.

It was recommended by a vet in San Antonio and the feed store we bought their formal food from to use. Now looking back I recall the lady at the feed store telling me that only some of the selections were good.

So VICTOR dog food has 17 selections, only 5 dont have blood meal in them. When we contacted them they acted like this was normal news of dogs dying and offered a refund and thats it. Just business no condolences nothing. Then we discovered tons of owners rallying up against Victor for a year now complaining of the same issue. Some dogs saved, some not...just like us.

I regret not doing more research but I know I could not have known what was happening too. It just sucks the trust I had to a product I didn't know, I trusted one vet and a clerk how stupid is that? Now I'm homecooking food again at least I know whats in that and is saving my other 2 dogs.

I'm sharing with you to spread the word especially if you have large dogs, check your food for blood meal and bone meal. Its dangerous the benefits do NOT outweigh the cost.

And never buy VICTOR dog food!!!

Titan should not have died. He was on this food for 2 weeks and was fully active until this weekend.


----------



## wolfy dog

Just bought a bag of Victor HiPRO PLUS DOG. It has blood meal in it as shown. What to do? Feed or discard? Don't want to donate stuff that I don't feed.


----------



## wolfy dog

Update: just called Chewy and they refund the money and let me donate the food, which I won't. Will let Victor know as well.


----------



## Lexie’s mom

That’s good! Get rid of it! Any unused food here goes outside for the wildlife. Will be gone in a couple of hours here. We are surrounded by a refuge.


----------



## Damicodric

Victor Hero Canine.









Victor Hero Canine.









Victor Hero Canine.


----------



## Magwart

@Michele P -- reach out to Susan at the Truth About Pet Food website about this: Contact Us – Truth about Pet Food

She sometimes has a way of rattling cages in the feed industry that can help. I think she would want to know about this.

You should also report (or better yet, have your vet report!) your dog's tragic experience -- reporting links are listed on the link above.

I'm so very sorry for your dog's passing. I know your heart is broken in a million pieces right now!


----------



## truckerirish

Michele P said:


> Still struggling but as the pieces come together the anger grows. Titan died from poisoning from his food. His food contained blood meal, in small quantities its a boost for protein in large it becomes poisonous. Titan was a big boy and so he ate a lot resulting in large quantities. His age of only 8 years old made it harder to fight it. His pancreas failed first then kidneys, then lungs and finally his heart. He suffered and didn't last 2 days once the symptoms showed up, he didn't make it to his appt we had made nor the er we were taking him to. We were told there would not have been any signs until the end. The other 2 dogs started vomiting this weekend as well and stopped eating the food. Now they are on bland diets to flush out the toxins and are improving. They follow up on the 14th.
> 
> It was recommended by a vet in San Antonio and the feed store we bought their formal food from to use. Now looking back I recall the lady at the feed store telling me that only some of the selections were good.
> 
> So VICTOR dog food has 17 selections, only 5 dont have blood meal in them. When we contacted them they acted like this was normal news of dogs dying and offered a refund and thats it. Just business no condolences nothing. Then we discovered tons of owners rallying up against Victor for a year now complaining of the same issue. Some dogs saved, some not...just like us.
> 
> I regret not doing more research but I know I could not have known what was happening too. It just sucks the trust I had to a product I didn't know, I trusted one vet and a clerk how stupid is that? Now I'm homecooking food again at least I know whats in that and is saving my other 2 dogs.
> 
> I'm sharing with you to spread the word especially if you have large dogs, check your food for blood meal and bone meal. Its dangerous the benefits do NOT outweigh the cost.
> 
> And never buy VICTOR dog food!!!
> 
> Titan should not have died. He was on this food for 2 weeks and was fully active until this weekend.


So sorry for your loss I've had plenty myself, I knew something was wrong with the Victor several months ago when all of a sudden I had opened a new bag and all 7 of my babies wouldn't eat it 2nd day they wouldn't eat it that's when I found out they had changed their formula smart dogs. I took it back to Atwoods and put them back on Diamond Naturals I only took them off it because Victor was supposed to be better was. I checked Diamond has no blood meal and my guys like it. hope your other too are ok.


----------



## Galathiel

I'm not sure if the blood meal in the dog food is the same as the type that cautionary tales are about. Is blood meal in dog food the same as the blood meal using in some fertilizers?


----------



## Jax08

Dog foods are inspected. You can't put fertilizer grade ingredients in dog food. Many food brands have blood meal in them and Victor is not going to purposely put something in their food that is going to kill animals. I'm not saying there wasn't something wrong with the food. I'm just saying that the food should have been sent to a lab to determine if that was the cause. Super important to have the analysis of the food if you suspect that is the issue. I've fed Victor for years with zero issues, even after the change of ingredients.


----------



## wolfy dog

I inquired at the company and immediately got a response as follows:
"Thanks for reaching out to VICTOR Super Premium Pet Foods. WE have not received information of any issues with Victor Foods and blood meal. Please give us a call @ 888-428-7544"
Since I didn't have this info first hand I suggest the OP contacts them


----------



## Shefali

mmags said:


> Victor recently changed their packaging on all of their formulas but that was not the only change. Along with the new bags, all of the formulas have changed. All formulas now have blood meal due to a reduction in meat meal as a protein source. The grain free formulas have peas higher on the ingredient list. Some have now also added garbanzo beans into the ingredient list. Formulas like the Yukon salmon moved salmon out of the first few ingredients. All formulas also now have Tetra Sodium Pyrophosphate and Vegetable Oil in them. They have added the blood meal to still be able to claim the same protein levels while decreasing the amount of meat in them. Victor also removed the general analysis tab that they had on their website for each formula and now only have the guaranteed analysis. Calorie content per cup decreased on almost every formula as well. I am disappointed in the change in the brand and wanted to give others a heads up. It seems the popularity got to them and in order to keep prices the same they needed to modify the ingredients and in my opinion, downgrade. I will be switching.


I used to love Victor. I fed it to my last dog and was planning to feed it to my new one. But the new formula gave my dog intestinal issues! It makes me sad, because Victor is an American company that made a high quality food for active dogs at a decent price.


----------



## Sabis mom

Just some general information.
If dogfood companies made a habit of killing dogs they would be out of business.
At anytime when a problem is suspected your contact should be the company, not the retailer and uneaten food should be destroyed. Most companies keep batch samples.
Your vet is an important part of the chain, relevant test results and observations should be documented and forwarded to the manufacturer.
While I agree that some appalling responses have been documented from some companies it is important that we follow the steps to resolve issues.

Feeding contaminated or spoiled food to wildlife is NOT an appropriate action. Nor is donating it to shelters.


----------



## Damicodric

Sabis mom said:


> Just some general information.
> If dogfood companies made a habit of killing dogs they would be out of business.
> At anytime when a problem is suspected your contact should be the company, not the retailer and uneaten food should be destroyed. Most companies keep batch samples.
> Your vet is an important part of the chain, relevant test results and observations should be documented and forwarded to the manufacturer.
> While I agree that some appalling responses have been documented from some companies it is important that we follow the steps to resolve issues.
> 
> Feeding contaminated or spoiled food to wildlife is NOT an appropriate action. Nor is donating it to shelters.


Autopsy???? If there’s a good vet school nearby, typically they’ll do it for free. Just a thought.


----------



## Michele P

Magwart said:


> @Michele P -- reach out to Susan at the Truth About Pet Food website about this: Contact Us – Truth about Pet Food
> 
> She sometimes has a way of rattling cages in the feed industry that can help. I think she would want to know about this.
> 
> You should also report (or better yet, have your vet report!) your dog's tragic experience -- reporting links are listed on the link above.
> 
> I'm so very sorry for your dog's passing. I know your heart is broken in a million pieces right now!


----------



## Michele P

I will do this, thank you so much.


----------



## Michele P

wolfy dog said:


> I inquired at the company and immediately got a response as follows:
> "Thanks for reaching out to VICTOR Super Premium Pet Foods. WE have not received information of any issues with Victor Foods and blood meal. Please give us a call @ 888-428-7544"
> Since I didn't have this info first hand I suggest the OP contacts them


Wow we just spoke to them on the phone yesterday and filed s complaint and they told us to get a refund on any of the remainder of food that we had. Wow.


----------



## Bneiss23

mmags said:


> Victor recently changed their packaging on all of their formulas but that was not the only change. Along with the new bags, all of the formulas have changed. All formulas now have blood meal due to a reduction in meat meal as a protein source. The grain free formulas have peas higher on the ingredient list. Some have now also added garbanzo beans into the ingredient list. Formulas like the Yukon salmon moved salmon out of the first few ingredients. All formulas also now have Tetra Sodium Pyrophosphate and Vegetable Oil in them. They have added the blood meal to still be able to claim the same protein levels while decreasing the amount of meat in them. Victor also removed the general analysis tab that they had on their website for each formula and now only have the guaranteed analysis. Calorie content per cup decreased on almost every formula as well. I am disappointed in the change in the brand and wanted to give others a heads up. It seems the popularity got to them and in order to keep prices the same they needed to modify the ingredients and in my opinion, downgrade. I will be switching.


We were feeding all 3 of ours Victor, when our 2 GSD's starting throwing up what looked like dark brown poop. Neither of them were pukers, so I started researching this and found you here thankfully. We stopped feeding them this food immediately and the problem went away. Our 3rd dog who is a rescue hound never has any issues with food or anything, as she is constantly eating stuff from the woods, however, we had gone on vacation and in order to keep it simpler for the dog sitters, we just brought the new food that we were giving the germans for everyone. When we got back, we started giving Squishy the Victor that we had left and she began throwing up a dark piles of disgusting mess. We called Chewy and they refunded us and told us to give it to a rescue as it was a full bag, but we could not, in good conscience do that and ended up throwing it away. We have not had a single issue since. I am thankful I found this site.


----------



## itsmejson

Hi there, just joined the forum to get some input. I have a 7 yr old shepherd-chow mix that I have been feeding victor nutra pro for the past 2 years.

Recently our dog will randomly throw up the food. Sometimes it looks like dark brown poop other times it’s brown and solid undigested kibbles. Also within the past month he seems to be less interested in it and will walk away.

what have you all switched your dogs to that are experiencing these issues? A different victor formula or completely different brand? If a different brand what have you switched to? Also being he is 7 what particular formula is necessary for an older dog?

appreciate anyone’s insight and guidance.


----------



## Shefali

itsmejson said:


> Hi there, just joined the forum to get some input. I have a 7 yr old shepherd-chow mix that I have been feeding victor nutra pro for the past 2 years.
> 
> Recently our dog will randomly throw up the food. Sometimes it looks like dark brown poop other times it’s brown and solid undigested kibbles. Also within the past month he seems to be less interested in it and will walk away.
> 
> what have you all switched your dogs to that are experiencing these issues? A different victor formula or completely different brand? If a different brand what have you switched to? Also being he is 7 what particular formula is necessary for an older dog?
> 
> appreciate anyone’s insight and guidance.


I switched to a different brand, unfortunately. I loved Victor, but when they changed the formula... very sad about it. Victor was made in Texas, so it was local, and I like to support local companies, but the welfare of my dog comes first.

I switched to Wellness Core Grain Free, based on reviews at this site: 15 Best Large Breed Dog Foods 2021 | Dog Food Advisor

They do the research which helps you make an educated decision. Then you can decide if you need to go grain free, or get something with added glucosamine, or if there is a flavor or kibble size your dog would prefer.


----------



## Magwart

Has anyone who experienced problems paid the hundred bucks to have the vet send a sample in to an independent lab? If so, can you please post your report?


----------



## Bella_Bailey

We switched our girls (9 months and 1 year old) to Hi Pro Plus at the beginning of February. Our 9 month old has never missed a meal or been disinterested in food until this past Friday. She isn't eating much and her poop has been inconsistent. Her sister has been the same way. The first 2 weeks they seemed fine but I'm really starting to think it's the food especially after reading this thread. They were previously eating Acana but we switched because it's more victor is more affordable and I won't be able to find acana when we move. So now I'm probably going to switch again. Any recommendations on good quality food or should I go homemade to ease their tummy issues?


----------

