# Signs of a Backyard Breeder



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Pretty interesting 10 Signs of a Backyard Breeder - It's Dog Or Nothing


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

:thumbup:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

OVerall a good chart - - but to 'split hairs'!!! I do not agree with the labels at the top end....the "reputable" is more a professional breeder and some of the descriptions do not apply to many - if any!!! - breeders in North America! IMO using this chart while "Hobby" is more what I think is a reputable experienced breeder....

but the lower end classes are pretty good


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Agree with you Lee.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> OVerall a good chart - - but to 'split hairs'!!! I do not agree with the labels at the top end....the "reputable" is more a professional breeder and some of the descriptions do not apply to many - if any!!! - breeders in North America! IMO using this chart while "Hobby" is more what I think is a reputable experienced breeder....
> 
> but the lower end classes are pretty good


I agree with you  

Joanna Campbell at Ruffly Speaking just did a blog post on some 'backyard breeder' warning signs that aren't always true. I agree with it and think it's more applicable depending on the case by case. 

The “signs of a backyard breeder” that are completely and utterly wrong | Ruffly Speaking


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

When I think a reputable experienced breeder, I think professional all the way as the top of the hill.

Dog trainer etc. highly involved. Don't like dealing with armatures in any industry. Why the breeder of my dog.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

creegh said:


> I agree with you
> 
> Joanna Campbell at Ruffly Speaking just did a blog post on some 'backyard breeder' warning signs that aren't always true. I agree with it and think it's more applicable depending on the case by case.
> 
> The “signs of a backyard breeder” that are completely and utterly wrong | Ruffly Speaking


I couldn't agree with you more. I love the Ruffly Speaking article and think the typical "signs of a good breeder" spread around the internet like they're the Bible can be misleading. Just the other day I was talking to a friend and dispelling a whole bunch of notions she had about what a "good" breeder absolutely does not do.

I do think it's beneficial to belong to a breed-specific club. It's a huge advantage as a social/training/support network for your local puppy buyers. I've met so many nice people through our local club and think it is a great resource. I found it without my breeder, but I might have been too shy to join in on activities if she hadn't been an enthusiastic member who was happy to introduce me to people.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

creegh said:


> I agree with you
> 
> Joanna Campbell at Ruffly Speaking just did a blog post on some 'backyard breeder' warning signs that aren't always true. I agree with it and think it's more applicable depending on the case by case.
> 
> The “signs of a backyard breeder” that are completely and utterly wrong | Ruffly Speaking


I don't really agree with some of the things she listed in the article.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Bella67 said:


> I don't really agree with some of the things she listed in the article.


I disagree with many of the things listed in your first article, for the very reason posted in that article


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> I disagree with many of the things listed in your first article, for the very reason posted in that article


can you list and explain?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Bella67 said:


> I don't really agree with some of the things she listed in the article.


I'd be interested in what you don't agree with and why.

My personal take on these lists is that they are guidelines and not hard and fast rules that perfectly discriminate between good and bad breeders, or between good and mediocre breeders. There are gray areas.


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## zudnic (May 23, 2015)

creegh said:


> I agree with you
> 
> Joanna Campbell at Ruffly Speaking just did a blog post on some 'backyard breeder' warning signs that aren't always true. I agree with it and think it's more applicable depending on the case by case.
> 
> The “signs of a backyard breeder” that are completely and utterly wrong | Ruffly Speaking


I like this list better especially the first two. I usually skip breeders who have their own males for breeding. Believe the number one rule if you breed, is to breed to improve the breed! You can't do this usually using your own stud dogs to your own bitches. Coming from a show background, I know how conformation only can screw up a breed. In short, I now try and select breeders that have been improving the breed!


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Bella67 said:


> can you list and explain?


You can find disagreements in any list. I liked the second list. 

People market a 'good breeder' according to their competitive advantages as a breeder to make money.

I think the second list that you don't like makes more valid points that are less obvious.

I think the list is well explained by itself. Nobody needs to redo what is already there. Surely you don't disagree with the whole thing? It makes some very good points.

In your list: understands and breeds to the standard, is one example. Std of what? Std of who?
That list favours conformation dogs. 

Best advice is read both, and understand why there will be flaws here and there.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Bella67 said:


> can you list and explain?


Well, list out your article you posted, and then list out the reasons AGAINST that list in the second article posted, and there you go. It does a good job of explaining it on it's own.

I believe work should come first, therefor a showline champion is not my ideal of a prime example because many times focus only on conformation can hurt the end point. I know PLENTY of good breeders I would buy from that have litters on the ground throughout the year. My dog was shipped to me from Michigan and I have never met his breeder in person or seen his parents in person. I've seen many breeders advertise up and coming breedings in appropriate forums, like working shepherd forums on facebook, etc. And I would NEVER buy from a breeder that required me to spay or neuter, especially at a young age. Enough studies are coming out to show enough risks to proceed with caution, and if a breeder can not recognize that I'm a responsible owner, I don't want them breathing down my neck for the life of the dog regardless.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've just had some great knowledge laid on me by members of this forum.

"When you see a reputable breeder, you know it."

Titles, working your dogs, conformation titles, none of that matters. Just look at the breeder (not even their dogs) and you'll know if they're reputable or not. Even better if you just listen to them over the phone, or exchange a few emails. Then you know...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I've just had some great knowledge laid on me by members of this forum.
> 
> "When you see a reputable breeder, you know it."
> 
> Titles, working your dogs, conformation titles, none of that matters. Just look at the breeder (not even their dogs) and you'll know if they're reputable or not. Even better if you just listen to them over the phone, or exchange a few emails. Then you know...



Ewww! I suppose it does look a bit confusing when taken totally out of text and only one sentence is pulled out of an entire post. I certainly didn't mean to confuse you! But I am totally thrilled that you were at least asking how a person can identify a reputable breeder. 

But let's not derail someone else's post once again. Perhaps you could go back to the original thread and ask some additional questions. That might help.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just stating that none of these charts or graphs matter. Just go with whatever person you trust in. The more you follow charts, the more you'll realize no one lives up to the expectations set by those that make the charts and then don't follow them themselves anyways.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I've just had some great knowledge laid on me by members of this forum.
> 
> "When you see a reputable breeder, you know it."
> 
> Titles, working your dogs, conformation titles, none of that matters. Just look at the breeder (not even their dogs) and you'll know if they're reputable or not. Even better if you just listen to them over the phone, or exchange a few emails. Then you know...


Not saying I'm completely disagreeing with you, but there are breeders out there who do 'everything right' at face value and kind of have people wowed but beneath all the gloss they aren't that great. 

It's when you start asking the hard questions that things kind of get murky and you realize things aren't as good as advertised.

Sadly most puppy buyers don't ask the hard questions or even know which questions to ask so breeders like that keep skimming along.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> Well, list out your article you posted, and then list out the reasons AGAINST that list in the second article posted, and there you go. It does a good job of explaining it on it's own.
> 
> I believe work should come first, therefor a showline champion is not my ideal of a prime example because many times focus only on conformation can hurt the end point. I know PLENTY of good breeders I would buy from that have litters on the ground throughout the year. My dog was shipped to me from Michigan and I have never met his breeder in person or seen his parents in person. I've seen many breeders advertise up and coming breedings in appropriate forums, like working shepherd forums on facebook, etc. And I would NEVER buy from a breeder that required me to spay or neuter, especially at a young age. Enough studies are coming out to show enough risks to proceed with caution, and if a breeder can not recognize that I'm a responsible owner, I don't want them breathing down my neck for the life of the dog regardless.


The breed club thing for me is another factor. 

I'm a member of my horse breed society but barely (it's the only game in town sadly and I either register my ponies or they are considered grade ponies and the alternative sport registries are not up to snuff and don't have stellar reputations + I don't want to lose those pedigree links). 

Been butting heads with Powers that Be for years and an incident involving me and a society higher up lead to the creation of a code of ethics to be adhered to (FINALLY). 

The mother society in Europe is run by a bunch of old men who believe science is witchcraft and are denying the existence of a genetic disease (it's a test made up by Americans to make money lolwhat?) and a recent edict has put a social media gag order in effect on criticism of the mother society with penalties up to being thrown out as a member on grounds of psychological issues and senility - yeah you read that right). 

So with that experience I don't automatically assume that not a member of a breed society = bad breeder. 

But yes, can you see why I'm ready to step back and get a puppy and try my hand at Schutzhund and just have fun?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As with most things in life, failure and success are brought about by a combination of factors.

Not just charts and not just trust....


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

And my point on the public having huge misinformation in selecting a good breeder stands! All these dog people, and we cant even agree what a good breeder is amongst themselves. 

How to chose the right breeder? Easier said than done.
Just saying: Imperfect Information.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes it does still stand.

Severely imperfect, often.




WesS said:


> And my point on the public having huge misinformation in selecting a good breeder stands! All these dog people, and we cant even agree what a good breeder is amongst themselves.
> 
> How to chose the right breeder? Easier said than done.
> Just saying: Imperfect Information.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

WesS said:


> When I think a reputable experienced breeder, I think professional all the way as the top of the hill.
> 
> Dog trainer etc. highly involved. Don't like dealing with armatures in any industry. Why the breeder of my dog.



Unfortunately - professional also implies that the person makes a living from it....and if you dig deeply into the breeders making a living totally off of dogs....many of them do not have the passion for the breed, the ethics and integrity of most of the knowledgeable reputable hobby breeders.

Lee


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