# Front Angulation of Working Lines



## wildo

The SV breed standard concerning fronts:


> Shoulder and upper arms are of equal length. Both are held snugly to the body by strong muscles. Angulation of shoulder blade to the upper arm ideally is 90 degrees, but up to 110 degrees is permissible.


The AKC breed standard concerning fronts:


> The shoulder blades are long and obliquely angled, laid on flat and not placed forward. The upper arm joins the shoulder blade at about a right angle. Both the upper arm and the shoulder blade are well muscled.


While the AKC doesn't make mention of the length of the humerus, they do mention the scapula to humerus angle of about 90 degrees, as does the SV. I've heard Carmen say over and over about how important a the front conformation is in working dogs, as a good front provides agility (_true_ agility- not just jumping up over things; the ability to _turn_).

So why is it (and correct me if I'm wrong) that we see short humeri over and over and over on Critique My Dog threads? Even the "greats" like Lord vom Gleisdreieck and Andy Maly Vah who are touted to be very agile seem to have short humeri and open shoulder angles. (I would concede that Andy actually has a _very _nice shoulder angle, though I still think his humerus is a bit short.) And I know what I should be thinking- who am I to be critiquing such great dogs? Well- correct me if I'm wrong then...

I'm just really curious why we consistently see short humeri in working line dogs. And- interestingly, I think I see more "correct" fronts in show line dogs. That might not seem interesting on the surface, but if a correct front really is that important for a working structure, it seems there would be more WL GSDs with correct fronts posted...



Am I just plain off in my critique?
Am I just happening to see a small subsection that just happens to be generally incorrect?
Are WL breeders as focused on a correct structure as they are temperament, drive, and nerve? Are there good examples of this that have gone unnoticed, or at least aren't as prevalent to newbies like myself?

I'm really, sincerely interested in this. I keep reading about the importance of the front end, but I'm rarely seeing it in posted dogs! Is my 'eye' just off?? What gives here?  Please help me to understand...


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## NancyJ

I think that is a common fault in working line dogs and one a lot of folks do strive to fix without sacrificing the other things. 

My own (non breeder) opinion is that a sound trotting structure is less focused on it sport as speed and power and the right drives and temperament are more stressed for the structure. Wheras the show folks are more about appearance and side trot.

Since I do SAR, I still want a dog that can move along for hours on end at a steady trot though and imagine the herding dogs have the same requirement. 

In reality, I have seen more endurance though in WL dogs than SL dogs in the woods and definitley more agility and stability than extreme SL types (German or US).


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## phgsd

More angulation in the front gives more lateral movement (for trotting), but maybe not so much "agility" and pure (vertical) jumping power. 

A short upper arm will restrict the front reach of the dog at a trot but is not a major hindrance.

There are many WL dogs with nice structure - maybe not so many with a 90 degree shoulder angle, but with nice balanced structure and they are very athletic.

For example - Kessy can trot (and look pretty doing it) all day long, is super athletic and jumps like a deer.









Her structure is not perfect - not quite V quality but high SG - but she is balanced, and the balance is more important than the individual parts. 










If you are really interested in structure, the GSD: The German Way series from Canine Training Systems is FANTASTIC. I learned so much about GSD structure from the videos - they go into detail about every body part and how all the parts come together. For example - a short croup will restrict the reach of the dog's rear and more angulation in the rear vs. the front will cause a dog to move downhill.

Before the videos I had an "eye" for dogs, because of my experience in horses, but it wasn't easy to really critique specifically what I was seeing. But the DVDs helped me put what I was seeing into words. 

I probably sound like a salesperson...but I'm not, I promise!! They are just that good


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## wildo

phgsd said:


> More angulation in the front gives more lateral movement (for trotting), but maybe not so much "agility" and pure (vertical) jumping power.


To be clear, I do not equate jumping power with agility. I think those things are very, very different. In my mind, "jumping power" is nothing more than athleticism and strength while agility is defined by the ability to effectively turn. I think that reach is actually very important for the ability to turn, demonstrated nicely in this photo (not totally fair since it's a different breed, but it's the same point):









(photo ref)

Without reach and angulation up front, I'm not sure a dog can _efficiently_ change directions quickly, such as needed in weave poles.

Here's a dog with poor angulation up front:





And here's a dog with much better angulation up front:





While there are certainly breed tendencies that make for a different weave pole performance (Poodles stand tall, BC's crouch low), never the less- the longer reach of the BC is clearly evident in his efficient, fast performance. Both dogs may be well "balanced" but the one with better conformation is actually the better at performing work also. Surely this is equally true in GSDs.


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## wildo

phgsd said:


> If you are really interested in structure, the GSD: The German Way series from Canine Training Systems is FANTASTIC.


Thanks- I will look into these!


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## NancyJ

It looked to me, there, that the difference was more one of back flexibility than reach......


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## DianaM

I checked out some photos of working border collies and it seems many have quite long upper arms. They aren't hitting 90 degrees but the humerus is indeed long. They also seem to be very dry and tight, more upright hip structure, built closer to wild canids that depend on speed, agility, and endurance. Good posts, wildo!

The best trotting structures have already been defined by Nature. Many modern GSDs that are touted to be built to trot are just built to look flashy. Balance, good ligaments, solid structure, sound feet, dry muscle have a lot to do with agility. There are dogs that look put together with tight bands and others that look put together with wet noodles.


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## paulag1955

What do you mean by dry muscles?

I love these technical threads.


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## wildo

DianaM said:


> I checked out some photos of working border collies and it seems many have quite long upper arms. They aren't hitting 90 degrees but the humerus is indeed long.


And this really is the heart of my question. The GSD breed standard states that the humerus should be the same length as the scapula. This must be there for a reason. As you pointed out, this requirement would seem to be there for a reason- to provide agility and efficiency in movement. So why is it so common to see a short humerus? Are breeders more focused on a dog that can do protection work than one who can move freely?

Come to think of it- I wonder if there are GSD breeders out there who do _not_ test with SchH, rather they test with herding. It would be really interesting to see what those GSDs look like compared to ones who come from long lines of protection work. (Not that I think those have to be mutually exclusive, but I think they tend to be in reality.)


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## phgsd

wildo said:


> While there are certainly breed tendencies that make for a different weave pole performance (Poodles stand tall, BC's crouch low), never the less- the longer reach of the BC is clearly evident in his efficient, fast performance. Both dogs may be well "balanced" but the one with better conformation is actually the better at performing work also. Surely this is equally true in GSDs.


Yes and no...the GSD structure has been taken to extremes, show dogs are built for flashy trotting (long reach) vs. actual functional agility. 

I have seen many showlines with high V structure who can barely make it over the 1 m hurdle. They also can't turn as quickly as a dog with less angulation. I am not trying to bash showline dogs, but many are not as agile as working lines, even though their structure is closer to the breed standard. 

And yes - there are herding GSD breeders. This breeder was the judge of our last HGH trial, and he has won the BLH which is the national herding trial in Germany...he's a professional shepherd with a flock of 1000 sheep.
Rüden aus der Glockenbergsschäferei
Hündinnen aus der Glockenbergsschäferei

I think it is more important that BC's can stop and turn on a dime, due to their herding style. They need to start and stop instantly to stay out of the flock's "bubble," and they have a low center of gravity which gives them even more agility. GSD's herd much differently, working very close to the flock and they are constantly in motion. 
There are other tending breeds (beaucerons, mals, dutch shepherds, etc) that have very upright structure - the GSD is the only one that has been bred with such a regard for angulation and a flying trot. Those other breeds WORK equally well and can be incredibly agile, even with little angulation.


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## wildo

Very, very interesting phgsd! So perhaps the SV's breed standard isn't there _purely _for functionality. It's really interesting that you mentioned mals because one thing I've definitely noticed is that they are rarely as angulated in front as GSDs. And they are certainly agile...


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## SarahMichelle

Not any help with the structure part but here are some other herding gsds

Our Dogs
PAM V Elexa vom Quasliner Moor - German Shepherd Dog
PAM SG Berta vom Quasliner Moor - German Shepherd Dog


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## NancyJ

These quotes are pretty enlightening I think-a lot of other ones on that site.

max v stephanitz on conformation

Just like anything you have to think there is a vision which generates a law, but how often does following a the law to the "t" fall short of meeting the vision? A lot. As I understand, von Stephanitz had his own battles with folks who wanted only to judge a dog based on its physical beuty.


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## lhczth

A short upper arm is a problem in not just the working lines. Lifting in front instead of correctly opening up the shoulder during movement is seen quite often in the show dogs now too. The BC shown running the weave poles is lifting in front and not actually showing reach. He is bending at the elbow. 

Correct movement:


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## wildo

Lisa- are you referring to the video or picture with that BC comment?


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## lhczth

Picture. Videos are hard for me to watch.


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## wildo

Interesting. I'm told that red BC has impeccable conformation. I see that the front foot is lifting, but I'm not sure it's fair to compare how a dog moves through weave poles with how a dog trots in a straight line. Here is the photo again (I see the front left foot lifting):









And here is the very last spot the front left foot was (count the weave poles):









How will the dog get that foot around the pole in front of him AND forward of the pole without lifting it?


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## lhczth

The dog pictured is given as an example of having good reach. In that photo the dog is lifting in front in order to achieve that reach. I can only judge what I am shown.  

No different than if the dog missed the weaves that day. The fact that it did the weaves correctly the previous day would not matter. It can only be judged based on what is seen at that moment in time.


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## wildo

I understand that you can only judge what you see. I don't question that. I'm just trying to understand what you're telling me. What do you mean when you say the dog is lifting? Lifting his chest? Lifting his paws?

In both pictures (which are back to back pictures from the same weave attempt) it looks to me like his withers are lower than his hips. So I assume you don't mean that he's lifting his chest- you must mean that he's lifting his paws. And that's what I don't understand. How can a dog perform the weave poles without lifting its paws?

My use of these pictures were to demonstrate the ability of the dog to stretch- having one front paw on the ground at the previous weave pole while the other front paw reaches forward around the next weave pole. Dogs with no reach end up keeping both front feet on the same side of each weave pole, which is slow an inefficient. Being able to reach a paw forward ahead to the next pole sets the dog up for the lead change around the next pole.

So- I'm not really sure what it means to "lift" in the context you're referring to.


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## Liesje

I *think* I get what Lisa is saying, because I did gymnastics. We obsess over open shoulder angles. You think dog/GSD people obsess about it, try doing gymnastics! You want the angle open at the shoulder, not at the elbow. Say someone says put your right hand above your head. You can level your right arm straight up, with open shoulder angle, or you can simply lift your right arm and then bend at the elbow until your hand is above your head. I'm assuming "reach" really refers to an open angle at the shoulder, not lifting from the elbow to compensate for a closed shoulder angle.

Maybe where agility is concerned, where the "stretch" comes from does not matter?


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## lhczth

Yes, Lies, that is what I am trying to say. Correct reach comes from an opening of the shoulder and not lifting of the leg off of the ground from the elbow. Correct reach, as shown in the photo I posted, covers ground efficiently Vs. a dog that lifts its front leg from the elbow. The photo of the dog doing agility is not a good example. 

A short upper arm tends to cause lifting of the leg and restricts movement. This is also a problem in horses and can cause choppy up down movement like seen in many old style Morgans and some of the pony breeds.


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## Liesje

Is it true that dogs will also tend to lift if their front angulation and reach doesn't match the rear angulation?


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## lhczth

Usually the dogs that I see who have more angulation in the rear compared to the front tend to either look like they are running down hill or they crab. Many of those who "run down hill" also tend to have very flat withers. I have seen this more in the working lines than the show. I see more lifting in the show lines. 

I tend to look for dogs that show very good balance when they gait. A nice moderate dog with nothing extreme. This way they maintain GSD type while still having the structure for a good versatile working dog.


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## 4TheDawgies

Lisa thank you for your wonderful insight on this thread. Could you please show us an example of "downhill" gaiting in a photo or video, and crabbing?


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## cliffson1

Great stuff, Lisa


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## lhczth

Videos for me are difficult since I have dial up and can only view some on my phone. I remember a photo on here in the critique threads of a dog that looked like it was running down hill. I would have to do a search to see if I can find that dog. 

Crabbing is easy to see, but you think I can actually find a way to describe it? LOL


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## robk

So, from what I gather, Dingo vom has Gero has as close as possible to an ideal confirmation with very good angulation in both the front in rear. From a critical eye, what are we looking at? I am posting both a picture of his stack and a youtube video. I know he has been discussed in other threads but I think he can be reviewed here. When I look at the video (sorry Lisa, I know you are still using dial up!) I see his forearm extend way out. Is this what we are talking about?


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## Xeph

> I see his forearm extend way out. Is this what we are talking about?


Yes, but what many people forget is that you must also pay attention to where the foot LANDS. The forefoot reaching way out past the nose means absolutely nothing if the dog's foot lands under its chest, for example.

You should also be able to see a correct shoulder opening whether the dog is walking or trotting

Opening at the shoulder:


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## carmspack

"I have seen many showlines with high V structure who can barely make it over the 1 m hurdle. They also can't turn as quickly as a dog with less angulation. I am not trying to bash showline dogs, but many are not as agile as working lines," 

Oh yeah ! this is why I posted this from the web site of the Ontario Regional trials "

Strong desire to work
Courage
Intelligence
Trainability
Strong bond to the handler
Perseverance
Protective Instinct
IPO tests for these traits. It also tests for physical traits such as strength, endurance, agility, and scenting ability
" because , as I said before , I did not see it . 

even though their structure is closer to the breed standard. 
??? who ? what? the show lines ! Not modern ones . Mutz Pelztierfarm , Marko Cellerland , BERND and BODO Lierberg , Dingo vom haus Gero -- okay .

Wildo I've sent you many examples of dogs that are bound up and totally restricted in front movement - and by that I am not talking about side-movement .
here is what a good front with ability to open up looks like 
"von Lord Fandor" -- even when she is galloping and compressing , that front allows her to pull right under to the mid of her core. The agility comes from the flex in the back. See the difference in the dog chosen for the banner -- !! This compression is like pulling back on a spring , collecting the energy , this then allows for maximum forward movement , launching , jumping , full extension.


IPO Trial | 2012 Ontario Regional IPO Championship / Show / Breed Survey

This post is written over an entire day so new contributions have appeared in the meantime. I believe Lisa said the dogs lift -- that is what I see in the show ring . The entire front lifts so that the dog looks like a wedge when moving , not the even topline where as in the old days the saying was you wouldn't spill water if you placed a glass on that top. 
I am sure there will be more ..
Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## cliffson1

Dag! Both of them look Good!....lol


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## lhczth

I have watched Dingo's video many times. Look how LONG Dingo's upper arm is. Yes, he was pretty darn correct (a bit loose overall, but correct in movement). 

The dog Jackie shows also has excellent reach, but she lacks balance overall.


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## Liesje

Is Nikon's OK? I know he's not that great and am told he lacks drive in the rear. There is some slow-motion so it's easier to see (better towards the end).


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## lhczth

Nikon is very balanced. No extremes. He could have a hair bit more reach and more drive through the rear, but his gait is balanced, IMO. Nice thing is that the video shows him moving freely next to the bike.


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## DunRingill

Nikon's movement is nicely balanced....you can especially see that in the slow motion video. He moves in a perfect 2 beat gait. A LOT of dogs do not!


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## Xeph

> The dog Jackie shows also has excellent reach, but she lacks balance overall.


I find this interesting  First time I've heard such about this particular dog


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## gagsd

I can't view all of these photos on my handheld, but the second dog down displays a lot of front elevation, but very little reach IMO.
Thoughts?
Male for sale: Large Sales Of FOUR Great Ddog - Best Offer Gets (id: 160893) - German Shepherd Dog


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## Liesje

Wow thanks guys! I guess I never thought of him as a real mover. What I do like about him is that he's not extreme (or extremely bad!) and that he's always been tight or dry or however you say it. He was never a gangly, loose dog even when he was growing at wonky stages. It's also interesting that he moves so well in a gait considering his problems (he actually walks with a limp and drags his right rear foot). In the video I was trying to bike as fast as I could before he would break into a run and didn't quite get it since the parking lot there is really uneven and full of holes (I think he stutter-steps one in the video).


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## Xeph

> but very little reach IMO.


No reach. He's moving from the elbow


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## DianaM

What is preventing the reach in the dogs from the pdb link? Such sorry movement.


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## paulag1955

I'm sorry to repeat myself, but what do you mean by dry?


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## DianaM

To me, it is firm, tight, not fleshy/squishy, defined.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with DianaM....a 'wet' dog is one that is loose with no muscle tone and the difference in the two is very evident. 
But a tight 'dry' dog is also agile and can be a noodle bodywise.
Onyx is tight, but not agile, she is overtight!(In her brain too, very tight wired!)
A loose dog isn't so athletic or agile, long reach or not.


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## paulag1955

So we're talking about muscle tone? As in dry/tight equals good muscle tone?


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## Xeph

I have to admit that I learned dry/wet in a similar manner, but not QUITE the same. I learned that a wet dog is a wet dog, regardless of condition. Wet dogs can be loose in the skin, not just in musculature.

I have a bitch here that is beautifully ligamented, but is wet in her skin. Her topline rolls a bit in motion for example(and no, she's not one bit fat).


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## onyx'girl

Structure plays into it. My female is very tight, not agile w/jumping though a great herder, yet muscled and can turn/stop easily. My male is the same structure essentially, yet he is graceful, collects himself over jumps and can turn and his brakes are firm. I think both are very good as far as structure, yet the difference is very evident. And neither one would probably go far in the show ring due to their structure....judges wouldn't like their height or weight even though they carry it well. 
A loose "wet" dog may show the same, but when you see the gaiting or agililty the looseness shows clearly. They just don't seemed toned, IMO. Karlo carries some extra coat/skin in his chest but may fill in eventually. So the dry/wet could be age related or not.


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## paulag1955

A person can be in good condition and still lack good muscle tone, as contradictory as that may seem. I would assume a dog can be the same way. As for skin, I don't think I have experience with enough dogs to be able to judge whether or not a dog is loose in the skin, even though I believe I could distinguish good or poor muscle tone.


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## paulag1955

Yet another fascinating discussion.


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## onyx'girl

paulag1955 said:


> A person can be in good condition and still lack good muscle tone, as contradictory as that may seem. I would assume a dog can be the same way. As for skin, I don't think I have experience with enough dogs to be able to judge whether or not a dog is loose in the skin, even though I believe I could distinguish good or poor muscle tone.


I agree! I have tone, but am not in good shape! And now my skin looks crepe(creepy!) and not one thing I can do to turn back time. Fur covers the flaws, yet we still can see thru the coat? How is that???


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## Mrs.K

Nala


















On the smaller side, dry and toned, light footed, agile, very fast, can jump, fast turns, good conformation, graceful and tons of drive in every aspect. The full package. 




























Indra is longer, heavier, larger. She's not graceful. She's got more the brute force, larger, powerful strides, she can jump but she is not as agile and of a quick mover as Nala. Not as much fooddrive, not very good confirmation but overall she's not badly angulated at all. She's not having a good pigment. She's got tons of Hunt and Prey Drive though. Good herder. 

This picture shows the difference. Nala is very fast and Indra takes twice as long to get around. 










It also shows in the rear-end awareness. She's just a longer and heavier dog, so she's not build to be as agile as Nala. However, she's a very good worker.


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## Liesje

I was told to think of wet/dry like a noodle. A dry noodle is stiff, a wet noodle is floppy. It wasn't explained whether this is muscle condition or joints or ligaments....whatever it is, when a dog is really loose it looks bad. When Nikon was praised as being "dry" it was in the context of his movement, not his condition. He was doing an AKC show against American show lines and those dogs were really floppy and the movement was all over the place. Nikon didn't have the same angulation and reach but was tight and balanced, his back was steady and firm. He didn't give the impression that you could blow him over. These were 4 month old puppies so muscle condition was not really a factor.


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## Mrs.K

And there is also a difference between larger, heavier, longer (yet firm) dogs that are just not as agile because of their body and dogs that are simply lose. Those larger dogs are still very athletic, just not as agile but lose dogs... they just look off.

If I had to describe both of my girls... Indra is a Track&Field Athlete, whereas Nala is the Acrobat. Does that make sense?


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## elisabeth_00117

Okay, because I read through this whole thread (what a TERRIFIC THREAD!) and I keep thinking... is Zefra "dry"?














































And *I* would consider Stark "wet"... right? I find him to be very loose in movement, but maybe I am just not grasping this?


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## onyx'girl

I'd say that is a great example...
I make my dogs JUMP(and do other parlor games) for their food reward...Onyx jumps tight, Karlo leaps gracefully! that is the difference of tight/dry...neither are wet~ though Karlo is a wet noodle, he can turn to touch his back w/ his nose much easier than Onyx. It is one of our stretch exercises before he works. If any of my dogs were described as wet, it would be Kacie, as she has a barrel shaped ribcage and a big butt, big paws and not as toned as the others.


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## Mrs.K

Xeph said:


> I have to admit that I learned dry/wet in a similar manner, but not QUITE the same. I learned that a wet dog is a wet dog, regardless of condition. Wet dogs can be loose in the skin, not just in musculature.
> 
> I have a bitch here that is beautifully ligamented, but is wet in her skin. Her topline rolls a bit in motion for example(and no, she's not one bit fat).


Zenzy had lose skin. She had beautiful confirmation but her skin was lose. She was very agile, just like Nala. Fast as whip but her skin was moving. 

Indra has no lose skin but she doesn't have that muscle tone.


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## Liesje

I'm not good enough to see dry/wet from a photo. I'd have to see the dog actually moving to see how the back is carried, do the rear legs to the egg-beater thing, are the feet really flat and floppy, etc.


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## elisabeth_00117

If you go to about 4:30 you may be able to see it?


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## Mrs.K

I think it might just be the poor quality of pictures that the muscle tone doesn't come out very well. I think in the second one you can see it a bit better. She actually does have a bit of muscle tone. I do have to admit that I need to build it up too. Especially through the long downtime, she's lost muscles.


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## carmspack

Zefra , in this picture, is your example of dog running downhill with loin higher than whithers ( Could you please show us an example of "downhill" gaiting in a photo)








Click this bar to view the full image.









Nikon's movement is balanced , and that is important because compensating is tiring . So that is a good thing.

It appears that his reach is not from the shoulder opening , but from the length of his arm from elbow to pastern.


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## Mrs.K

Zefra is a young dog, too. How old is she? She might balance herself out with maturity.


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## elisabeth_00117

In this photo she was about 11-12 months.

In the video she is 14 months. I don't have another photo unfortunately.

I know she is restricted in the rear, that is obvious, and that she is very compact.. Again, not sure what term to use or how to describe what I "think" everyone is talking about... LOL


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## paulag1955

Shasta has downhill gaiting. The difference between how she looks and how Thor looks while gaiting, even though he is just a puppy is striking. 










Compared to what I'm used to seeing with Shasta, Thor looks fabulous to me. Can't tell "where" his reach is coming from, though. I don't have a picture of Shasta in movement like this (she's not big on trotting), but you can see in the photo how pronounced she slopes up toward her hips.


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## BlackthornGSD

elisabeth_00117 said:


> And *I* would consider Stark "wet"... right? I find him to be very loose in movement, but maybe I am just not grasping this?


I would consider him to be "normal" while Zefra is "dry". 

A dog who I'd describe as "wet" just looks loosey-goosey and there is extra flesh on the neck and throat and around the jowls.


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## BlackthornGSD

Here's a puppy who moved downhill pretty strongly--she was very butt high as a younger puppy, but she's starting to "level out" now. Notice how her hind end isn't really in balance with her front end. Instead of having a 2-beat trot, she's got 1 fore foot on the ground and both hind feet in the air. Not supposed to have both hind feet in the air like this during a trot! On the other hand, she's got lovely front reach at all ages....


3.5 months










Five months









5.5 months









She's starting to grow into herself by this time.... (8 months)









At 9.5 months, she may improve a bit more....


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## BlackthornGSD

I'm trying to find some pictures of a "wet" GSD. I've seen some conformation dogs like this. And there are some working line dogs this way, too.

Think of a St. Bernard or a Bloodhound. But it's not just loose skin--it's as though all the connective tissue were made of gummy worms.

Here's a DDR male who I think is somewhat "wet" --


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## paulag1955

I'm thinking wet and dry are the sort of thing that are hard to explain but will become apparent after spending time around more dogs.


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## Mrs.K

Good Lord, that's not a GSD anymore, LOL


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## GSDElsa

Medo is what I think of as tight all around. Moves OK, but doesn't have a HUGE amount of reach....although the timing on this photo isn't quite right


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## elisabeth_00117

Thanks Christine! I think i am starting to "see" it.


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## carmspack

when the shoulder does not open reach is restricted , which changes the weight distribution and impact , like a car without suspension , they fall heavy on the front .

here is a slow motion view of that - also see the dogs are in a pace - which is something that I see oh so many times at conformation shows , including the recent regionals .

https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/show-german-shepherd-gait-in-action/


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> when the shoulder does not open reach is restricted , which changes the weight distribution and impact , like a car without suspension , they fall heavy on the front .
> 
> here is a slow motion view of that - also see the dogs are in a pace - which is something that I see oh so many times at conformation shows , including the recent regionals .
> 
> https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/show-german-shepherd-gait-in-action/


Never can get myself to fully watch that dog. It's too painful. :help:


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## lhczth

elisabeth_00117 said:


>


Hope you don't mind, but I am going to use Zefra as an example of a dog falling onto its forehand while gaiting. Someone asked earlier.


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## lhczth

Oops, I see that Carmen pointed this out already.


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## DianaM

Renji is what I would call tight as a drum and dry as the Sahara. He has very honest conformation and everything is evident at movement. His topline is a trainwreck but he is also well balanced. His reach appears decent to me. I can take the bike at quite a high speed before Renji feels a need to switch from trot to gallop but I think is favorite gait is RUN! His structure is more of a speed and agility structure. He is agile as a ferret, accelerates like a whippet, brakes like a performance car, has excellent hind awareness, and while he can jump surprisingly well, I don't really know how good it is. He isn't pretty to look at but he can work. Just not so sure about that rollercoaster of a back.










He can collect very well.










And open up for a full stride.










Stack.

Would love to know how his topline affects things.


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## Liesje

LOVE that dog! Great size, nice and square....awesome for agility and flyball!


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## DianaM

Thanks, Lies! We are working through the last behavior and control issues and maybe we will do formal agility. He is AWESOME for lure coursing, though. A very close tracker of the lure. I may trial him for the CAT in Sept so I will really get a true feel of the speed and following. As for flyball, oh yeah, he would be great at taking down all those other dogs getting all of his balls.


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## Mrs.K

DianaM said:


> Renji is what I would call tight as a drum and dry as the Sahara. He has very honest conformation and everything is evident at movement. His topline is a trainwreck but he is also well balanced. His reach appears decent to me. I can take the bike at quite a high speed before Renji feels a need to switch from trot to gallop but I think is favorite gait is RUN! His structure is more of a speed and agility structure. He is agile as a ferret, accelerates like a whippet, brakes like a performance car, has excellent hind awareness, and while he can jump surprisingly well, I don't really know how good it is. He isn't pretty to look at but he can work. Just not so sure about that rollercoaster of a back.
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> And open up for a full stride.
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> Would love to know how his topline affects things.


Honestly, in the last picture he looks a lot like those very early German Shepherds that almost appear to be Mal-like.


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## GatorDog

This thread is super interesting. Now I'm going to have to go out and try and take a video of Aiden's movement!


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## phgsd

The butt-high topline (sorry that's what we called it in horses...LOL) is caused by a lack of angulation in the rear vs. decent angulation in the front. Also his croup is very short and steep which causes a lack of reach in the rear. My first GSD was but built similarly, but not as extreme. It's not surprising he prefers to run since it's not really trotting structure.


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## paulag1955

DianaM said:


>


If the butt-high topline is caused by lack of angulation in the rear, I wonder if someone could draw over this photo to show what correct angulation would be.


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## carmspack

*Sloughi Dog Breed*














Dry as the Sahara -- first thought that came in to my mind was a desert sight hound FROM the Sahara.
Renji is built more like a Sloughi (type of saluki) used in lure coursing . Flat ribs , belly tucked , pelvis slightly higher than whithers.
The collected picture looks more like a greyhound . This dog is more running type. The short steep croup works like a hinge to bring that rear under .
GSD are not supposed to be square , slightly longer than tall - around a 10 long to 8 1/2 high.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Liesje

DianaM said:


> Thanks, Lies! We are working through the last behavior and control issues and maybe we will do formal agility. He is AWESOME for lure coursing, though. A very close tracker of the lure. I may trial him for the CAT in Sept so I will really get a true feel of the speed and following. As for flyball, oh yeah, he would be great at taking down all those other dogs getting all of his balls.


To me he's like the "sport pack" GSD mix! I like square dogs (yes I know GSDs are not square). I read an article on agility conformation and I think the author said there's no such thing as a dog that's *too* short-coupled when it comes to agility.

Pan has done so well at flyball but I'm not sure it will last. I've been keeping him lean but he's put on a few pounds naturally (he's not quite 2 years old yet so he will fill out) and I've noticed that he's having more and more trouble controlling his body at his speed and drive. Last night he basically vaulted over the box, he hit it so hard (and he has a very nice, safe swimmer's turn, it's not a training problem he's just SO fast and SO big, for a flyball dog).


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## Kev

In my opinion, Klodo v. boxberg is the perfect type of gsd. Nice length to height ratio.
A more modern GSD look that I like is Ingo v. rudigen, nice blocky head and a look of a square but strong body.
But this is just what I see.


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## 4TheDawgies

I see exactly what you guys mean about the running down a hill. Makes total sense why its described as such now. 

this is such a cool thread.


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## elisabeth_00117

I am learning so much from this thread - thanks to all who are contributing!


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## DianaM

Wow, thanks Carmen! He is balanced enough to trot for long periods but he sure does live to run. Interesting comparison to the sloughi; the general build is so similar. I know GSDs are supposed to be longer than tall however there are also lots of GSDs that seem too long. My preference is to the more square GSDs. 

Can this thread be stickied? All of the structure and movement threads are so informative.


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## Wolfgeist

DianaM said:


> Can this thread be stickied? All of the structure and movement threads are so informative.


:thumbup:


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## DunRingill

NOT dry  I think we could have fit another dog in his skin with him!


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## wildo

Based on a comment from Carmen about APBTs and "anathematic" breeding practices (nice word Carmen!), I was just looking up some reputable breeders of APBTs when I saw this photo:

It totally reminded me of this thread. Certainly this is a "dry" dog!








Photo credit: http://www.caragankennel.com/2011/09/enforcer/


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## christinaekenn

I am enjoying reading this thread. I personally think most GSD's are lacking in their front end angulation, mine included. What I do find interesting is that many people (not saying here, just in general), claim a dog with a straight front will never hold up to work or be athletic. I am used to fairly extreme front angles because I cane from border collies. How low can you go right? Well, I also love Malinois, and I am trying to get past their often stick straight front ends. But I am sure we have all seen their extreme speed and athleticism in general. Not a ground covering breed at the trot but certainly their front ends are not the death of them. 

And Lies, I also like more square although incorrect for the breed. My 2 1/2 year old male is probably as wrong as they come for a GSD boy. He is on the low side of the standard for height, lighter in bone, and shorter in back. He is fairly compact and probably 70 pounds soaking wet on a good day, if that. But he is incredibly athletic in agility or IPO and I think he will hold up for years to come.


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## carmspack

that's a well built utility dog , a good working structure , not as you say as wrong as they come for a GSD !!! Maybe a little short in the upper arm , but look at the strength this dog has through his beautiful back and rear -- 
is it possible to get you to show the dog in a trot -- I bet he can go all day and settle in to a rhythm . This is what its all about . 
Oh and pedigree -- I am thinking he has quite a bit of DDR behind him ?

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## christinaekenn

Thanks  Shepherd people generally think him ugly. Because he is the size of a good sized female these days. Those that love him, absolutely love him. I used to hate it because he just isn't that "jaw on the floor" type of masculine male. But now I LOVE the general size and structure of this dog. He truly can do anything- a very moderate working dog. And he is hard on his body with no signs of breaking apart. He can go all day long. Maybe not a huge ground covering trot but moderate and very easy. It takes a lot to get him tired at a trot. He is only about 28 months in those photos and still filling out. What he lacks in size he more than makes up for in temperament though. I will try and get a photo or video of him trotting.

Not a DDR dog http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/527902/Traumatizer-von-Schraderhaus


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## GSD07

Beautiful dog, love the structure. I have no idea how someone could call him ugly. He's a perfect size and very masculine to me. I also always liked the looks of his sire. 

I know of your dog's littermate, and he didn't turn out so good in health and temperament, even though he's a handsome dog as well. Hope to see more pics of your boy!


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## christinaekenn

Yes, it is unfortunate that one of the puppies did not turn out well...but such is the part of breeding. My boy has one of the best temperaments you could ask for in a dog and a very sound body, so that is good  You can see photos here as he grew Trauma | Facebook

and lots of videos of Trauma here https://vimeo.com/user1307241/videos


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