# Thoughts on WL Pup's Pedigree



## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

Hey! Been a long time lurker on this forum, finally decided to make an account with the arrival of my new puppy a few weeks back. This is our first GSD (and a dog) in a very very long time and he just happens to be a working line puppy. He's 12 weeks old tomorrow and was hoping to get thoughts on his pedigree and what we should likely be expecting from him.


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

I wasn't able to find the Sire and Dam on the pedigree database, but this is what I've found if it helps.

*Sire's side*
*Mother: *Xeline von Haus Salztalblick
*Father: *Alli vom Dunklen Zwinger

*Dam's side*
*Mother: *LUCIA of MILIPOLI
*Father: *kestenbar zasco


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

I guess not many are familiar/know of any of the dogs in my pup's line. First time having a pup in a long time and definitely my first time with working lines. Assuming that he has the genetics (from what I can see), would it be a good idea to join a club and possibly get him titled?



Ikigai said:


> I wasn't able to find the Sire and Dam on the pedigree database, but this is what I've found if it helps.
> 
> *Sire's side*
> *Mother: *Xeline von Haus Salztalblick
> ...


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Well there's a couple of names that jump out at me. First is jaguar Aritar Bastet. He's a grandson of Tom z PS (I believe). All I've ever heard said about him was he was a good working dog and good producer of working dogs. The second was Paska vom haus saltzablick. I believe there was a thread a while ago about black dogs and someone (I think) mentioned too much paska could produce dogs with weak nerves. There's a member here who I believe had some breeding stock out of paska dogs. Or knew about them. Wolfstraum maybe? I don't recognize the dog but you have a jirkova Dvora dog in there and they're supposed to produce some pretty serious working dogs, but I only heard that from a breeder who had a litter coming up with a lot of jirkova dvora in the pedigree. So I don't know for sure on that front. Way back you have aly vom vordersteinwald. He was suppose to be a good working dog. Not sure what kind of producer he was. He was a troll son (troll von der bosen nachbarschaft) who was a son of fero, and I see him mentioned from time to time but can't recall why. 

That's the best I can do from a little googling on some names I'm familiar with. If I had to guess I'd say this pup will be a good working prospect at the very least. If @carmspack sees this you'll probably get a lot more info on those dogs. There's a few other members who are great with pedigrees but I can't recall their names off memory alone. 

What are your plans with him?


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Ikigai said:


> Assuming that he has the genetics (from what I can see), would it be a good idea to join a club and possibly get him titled?


 sorry I didn't asnswer this in my other post. From what I can tell I'd say it would be borderline negligent not to join a club and do something with him. This isn't a pet dog and he won't do well without a job of some sort. You don't have to title him per se but definitely find some work of some sort for him.


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> sorry I didn't asnswer this in my other post. From what I can tell I'd say it would be borderline negligent not to join a club and do something with him. This isn't a pet dog and he won't do well without a job of some sort. You don't have to title him per se but definitely find some work of some sort for him.


Yeah I definitely want to do something with him. I'd like to have him trained in Schutzhund/IPO but this would be my very first time with a working line pup as well as being new to Schutzhund/IPO, would this be a good idea? Also a little background on his parents; mother's a guard dog and father's trained in Schutzhund/IPO, also got his BH a few months ago.

And yeah hopefully carmspack drops by and hopefully is able to provide more info, really interested in the line of dogs my pup comes from. Appreciate the help


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Yea of course it's a good idea, if that's what you want to do. Everyone was new to schutzund their first time! The main point is just that he has a job. Working dogs get frustrated and destructive without some kinda work to do.


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> Yea of course it's a good idea, if that's what you want to do. Everyone was new to schutzund their first time! The main point is just that he has a job. Working dogs get frustrated and destructive without some kinda work to do.


Great, just a matter of finding a club that's near enough and getting in touch.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Sometimes that's easier said than done. I'm starting to do some research in my area and the clubs are few and far away from me. But I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread. I'm interested to see what others say about your pedigree


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is a pedigree full of names and kennel names that are very commonly seen. Well known dogs like Tom, Olex, Ernst, Nick, Dasty, Dargo, Tyson, Sirk, Ellute and then well known names like Tiekerhook, Salztalblick, dunklen Zwinger, haus Lohre.....actually a very typical pedigree combining West German, some Belgian, Dutch and a touch more Czech/Slovak kennel names. 

Most of the more well known are in the 3rd and back generations.....they are touched upon lightly above.

Aly Vordersteinwald is indeed a Troll son - Troll the most prolific and common of all Fero sons.....and said to present his dam side more in production...Aly being from Xento/Kid Maineiche on the dam's side, is commonly thought of as being a "hip improver"....I did my first OFA Excellent hip rating from an Aly son over a fast normal female in my B litter. And yes, I have a female who has Paska - nerves are not an issue that I have ever heard from attributed to Paska - grips maybe, and some aggression, but not nerves. Pretty dog. Someone here in the states is "specializing" in Paska lines and charging outrageous prices for dogs with Paska.....no clear logical reason why - other than he was a V rated black and produced a few as well, so they must be using a marketing firm...my female is also V rated, black as was her dam who is a daughter of Paska and a granddaughter of another black male, Xito Maineiche...


If there is a club near to you and you are interested, then certainly, look into the sport. I have slowly moved towards not doing much with puppies club wise until they are closer to a year old, have seen too many damaged dogs and some of the common puppy work is hard on those soft bones, joints and developing bodies....imprinting positions, focus and tracking is all great for puppies !!!


Lee


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> It is a pedigree full of names and kennel names that are very commonly seen. Well known dogs like Tom, Olex, Ernst, Nick, Dasty, Dargo, Tyson, Sirk, Ellute and then well known names like Tiekerhook, Salztalblick, dunklen Zwinger, haus Lohre.....actually a very typical pedigree combining West German, some Belgian, Dutch and a touch more Czech/Slovak kennel names.
> 
> Most of the more well known are in the 3rd and back generations.....they are touched upon lightly above.
> 
> ...


Wow! Appreciate the detailed response. So would you recommend taking him to puppy classes for now and then think about a club once he's a little older? I'm considering this because every club is more than an hour or more away from where I live and look relatively small. I've also e-mailed two clubs regarding how old he is and whether or not it'd be a good idea to join a club and have received no replies back as of yet.


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

Finally have Rocky registered on PDB, here's his pedigree on there!

6 Generation Pedigree for Rocky vom Denvour

Any thoughts? I've mentioned this in other threads but we're going down to a club on Saturday!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just to give you an idea of what's back there...  Okay, it's 3 generations back, but Tyson is one of my favourite dogs, and I see no evidence in the pedigree that the lines have been diluted since with dogs that aren't from good working line blood.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This really doesn't matter now because Rocky is yours and as long as you're happy with your puppy, I wouldn't worry too much about his pedigree other then maybe having some fun looking up videos of the well known dogs in it. In the future though, if you really enjoy all this, the training, the sport and all, think about this when you look at the pedigree before you choose a puppy. 

When I see all those titles on dogs back in the pedigree, I look at that as the work that was put into those dogs proving and testing what they are. When you see that work, the training and trialing and the titles that come from that taper off in the generations closer to and then the sire and dam themselves, I want to know why. With the dogs that were titled you have the knowledge that came with all that work combined with not only a judges opinion and score, but also the showing of it in public and its a smaller world then you would realize in dog sports. People talk.

So with a dog like this, you're paying for all that work that was put in and the knowledge of the breeder that goes into choosing what to breed. If you take two dogs from all these titled dogs in the past and breed them with a BH or nothing at all, my question is why and do I trust the word of the person doing the breeding without having something more like those outside opinions. Maybe there's a good reason, maybe this person is the one who just "knows" and should be trusted. But I would question those types of things. Everyone that puts a leash on can claim they're working on his titles, but I just want to know why they aren't there yet and why is that the dog that should be bred. There could be very good reasons, or it could be a crock. 

Have fun with him, you could do anything from this being a learning experience to competing with him, but its something you have to really enjoy so that it doesn't turn into work for you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know pretty well all of the dogs in this pedigree. The topside through Gilda is very sporty, the dam side through Kenquartz is very serious stuff. Send me pm and I can give you some detail. I have worked and owned many of the progeny of both sides of this pedigree.


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## Ikigai (Jun 26, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> This really doesn't matter now because Rocky is yours and as long as you're happy with your puppy, I wouldn't worry too much about his pedigree other then maybe having some fun looking up videos of the well known dogs in it. In the future though, if you really enjoy all this, the training, the sport and all, think about this when you look at the pedigree before you choose a puppy.
> 
> When I see all those titles on dogs back in the pedigree, I look at that as the work that was put into those dogs proving and testing what they are. When you see that work, the training and trialing and the titles that come from that taper off in the generations closer to and then the sire and dam themselves, I want to know why. With the dogs that were titled you have the knowledge that came with all that work combined with not only a judges opinion and score, but also the showing of it in public and its a smaller world then you would realize in dog sports. People talk.
> 
> ...


Yeah at this point it's just all to satisfy my curiosity as I only know the very basics of the sport and we've just started out at a club recently. So reading up on the names associated with my pup's lines is pretty fun when I get the chance. And yeah I definitely agree, hoping to bring out the best in him whatever that may be.


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