# SV german shepherd vs American GSD



## Charlene LP (Mar 8, 2017)

Hi everyone!

I've been heavily looking at getting an SV GSPup and wanted to understand what the differences were, in your opinion, between a SV GSD and an American GSD. 

I also wanted to understand what a reasonable price for an SV GS pup is vs a non SV GS pup. I just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off.

I'm in Ontario btw.

Thanks,

Charlene


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Charlene LP said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I've been heavily looking at getting an SV GSPup and wanted to understand what the differences were, in your opinion, between a SV GSD and an American GSD.
> 
> ...


Hey, there! So, SV is the original GSD club and they exist and operate out of Germany. I'm assuming you're referring to West German Showlines when you say SV? 

There are generally three different lines within the GSDs of today. There's West German Showlines, Working Lines and American Showlines. Within each "type" there are also more specific "lines," like DDR or Czech for Working Lines, etc. but those are the main three classifications.

Like I said, I'm assuming you're talking about West German SLs? What are you looking for in a GSD? What do you plan to use it for and what characteristics do you admire in the breed? Knowing that will get you closer to a price range depending on your wants and which breeders provide that.

Are you looking at any specific breeders?

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## Charlene LP (Mar 8, 2017)

kimbale said:


> Hey, there! So, SV is the original GSD club and they exist and operate out of Germany. I'm assuming you're referring to West German Showlines when you say SV?
> 
> There are generally three different lines within the GSDs of today. There's West German Showlines, Working Lines and American Showlines. Within each "type" there are also more specific "lines," like DDR or Czech for Working Lines, etc. but those are the main three classifications.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply, yes I'm referring to West German Showlines. We are looking for a GSD who will be a part of our family, go walking, running and on hikes with us. A dog that will protect our family but will also enjoy hanging out with us while watching tv. I love everything about GSD's but my two favourite attributes would be loyalty to family and also being able to take him/her outside to play, go for runs etc.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Charlene LP said:


> Thanks for your reply, yes I'm referring to West German Showlines. We are looking for a GSD who will be a part of our family, go walking, running and on hikes with us. A dog that will protect our family but will also enjoy hanging out with us while watching tv. I love everything about GSD's but my two favourite attributes would be loyalty to family and also being able to take him/her outside to play, go for runs etc.


I'll give you my personal opinion on WGSL vs ASL. I know some people who like the ASL, but I much prefer WGSL and WL. I actually just brought home a WGSL pup yesterday from pretty extraordinary lines and I can already see the wonderful breeding in the pup. He's my little shadow, very calm and confident with good ball drive. His dad was IPO3 and he comes from a long line of solid IPO dogs (something that is hit or miss in WGSL dogs). 

So, in my opinion, WGSL is much preferable to ASL. This is because WGSL dogs are held to SV standards. Meaning, the dogs have to be titled in IPO and conformation before they can be bred. This shows that the dog has working ability on top of proper conformation. 

I also think the WGSL are much better looking than ASL. They are bigger boned, bigger heads and the lines that I like carry deep mahogany red coloring.

As far as temperment, I feel ASL are not as solid as WGSL. A good WGSL will be loyal, protective, gentle with you and aloof around strangers. ASL are a bit too friendly with everyone for my taste.

All this said, you will want to do your research on breeders to make sure you find a good one. I like to see IPO3 dogs in the pedigree, especially if they're female. Also lots of VA and V dogs. Ask the breeder what they breed for in regards to temperment. A breeder that actually works their dogs and is active in their schutzhund club is always preferable to me. That shows me they aren't just titling their dogs so they can breed them, but that they care about their dogs' temperment and they want to produce dogs with good working drive.

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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I would recommend that you find a few breeders of each type and go meet their dogs. Get a feel for what an adult will be. Also, go to working competitions, obedience trials, IPO trials, and conformation shows. 

A few years ago I would have been in the "heck no" camp for ASL dogs. But then I met a few. A saw a few work sheep. And now I am not so down on them. In every "sub line" of GSD you are going to get good and bad. While it's easy to say that WGSL are bound to be better due to having to have titles, that's just false. No one in the US has to follow that, and many if the top dogs in that lineage are "passed" through by crony judges and midnight trials. 

So that's why I say, go meet dogs. Go meet breeders. Go see them work and live and then find a breeder of either line that is producing what you want.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Go see some dogs and talk to their owners, visit some clubs and see what you like/don't like. You can only gain so much from reading.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

kimbale said:


> I'll give you my personal opinion on WGSL vs ASL. I know some people who like the ASL, but I much prefer WGSL and WL. I actually just brought home a WGSL pup yesterday from pretty extraordinary lines and I can already see the wonderful breeding in the pup. He's my little shadow, very calm and confident with good ball drive. His dad was IPO3 and he comes from a long line of solid IPO dogs (something that is hit or miss in WGSL dogs).
> 
> So, in my opinion, WGSL is much preferable to ASL. This is because WGSL dogs are held to SV standards. Meaning, the dogs have to be titled in IPO and conformation before they can be bred. This shows that the dog has working ability on top of proper conformation.
> 
> ...


WGSL dogs bred in Germany with pink papers are held to SV standards. WGSL dogs bred in the US with AKC papers may be, but there are no rules requiring this, so it it depends on the breeder. 

For this reason, many people want to import a puppy from Germany, and that sounds sane. But the German breeders have dogs they want to download, so unless you know someone who goes over and selects, or has a good working relationship with someone over there, you are probably better off visiting breeders here and finding someone who is producing what you want. 

Importing a puppy will not ensure that the puppy meets the SV standards for breeding, only that its sire and dam did.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Yup...WGSL exist all over America, but that doesn't mean they'll be bred to SV standards. Even dogs that are bred to SV standards (whether here or overseas) doesn't guarantee high quality (in terms of work).

There are excellent WGSL though. I started with one who was half WGSL, my last litter was sired by one (who has excellent work, really like the dog).

When it comes to "protecting the family", this overall is not something dogs just do. They need to be trained to do it. If you're looking for a general deterrent, any GSD will do. People see a GSD and tend not to want to bother someone (if they have ill intent).

I show and breed American lines, but am doing cross line breedings as well (for performance and work purposes).

No one line is better than another, it just depends on your needs.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

selzer said:


> WGSL dogs bred in Germany with pink papers are held to SV standards. WGSL dogs bred in the US with AKC papers may be, but there are no rules requiring this, so it it depends on the breeder.
> 
> For this reason, many people want to import a puppy from Germany, and that sounds sane. But the German breeders have dogs they want to download, so unless you know someone who goes over and selects, or has a good working relationship with someone over there, you are probably better off visiting breeders here and finding someone who is producing what you want.
> 
> Importing a puppy will not ensure that the puppy meets the SV standards for breeding, only that its sire and dam did.


Very true, and good advice. When I purchased my WGSL puppy I made sure to buy from a breeder who participates in Sieger Shows and continues to adhere to SV standards, eventhough they breed in the US. My breeder travels back and forth to Germany quite often and works with German kennels to train and import dogs. 

I would recommend the OP finds a breeder who continues to adhere to the SV standards and participates in Sieger Shows. Find a few and talk with them about their dogs, meet the dogs, etc. I would be happy to make a few recommendations. By finding a breeder who continues to participate in Sieger and adheres to the SV, that tells you that the breeder is serious about producing quality WGSL dogs and that they respect the standard. 

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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

There are a lot of breeders here in the US who follow the SV model of conformation + working titles on their dogs. I'm a member of such a discussion group on facebook. I can PM you the name if you are interested.

No matter what you decide, getting out to meet dogs and breeders in person is important. Going to Seiger shows, IPO trials and other venues are the best way to see what is out there.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Dainerra said:


> There are a lot of breeders here in the US who follow the SV model of conformation + working titles on their dogs. I'm a member of such a discussion group on facebook. I can PM you the name if you are interested.
> 
> No matter what you decide, getting out to meet dogs and breeders in person is important. Going to Seiger shows, IPO trials and other venues are the best way to see what is out there.


Hey! Can you PM me that group name? I just brought a WGSL pup home and want to get more involved in that specific community. 

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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I would recommend that you find a few breeders of each type and go meet their dogs. Get a feel for what an adult will be. Also, go to working competitions, obedience trials, IPO trials, and conformation shows.
> 
> A few years ago I would have been in the "heck no" camp for ASL dogs. But then I met a few. A saw a few work sheep. And now I am not so down on them. In every "sub line" of GSD you are going to get good and bad. While it's easy to say that WGSL are bound to be better due to having to have titles, that's just false. No one in the US has to follow that, and many if the top dogs in that lineage are "passed" through by crony judges and midnight trials.
> 
> So that's why I say, go meet dogs. Go meet breeders. Go see them work and live and then find a breeder of either line that is producing what you want.


I think this advice bears repeating: Be open to both types, go and meet breeders and dogs from both.

You might consider a cross, too, if you run across any ASL breeders making those pairings. Mine is an ASL/WGSL cross, and I've really liked the temperaments I've seen on the dogs who are half or a quarter German show line. The ASL/WGSL crosses I've met were dogs I've met at ages 4 weeks to adult, and all of them were happy, resilient, confident dogs.

I don't really know a lot about the SV system and can't speak intelligently to that. I know there were lots of schutzhunds in the German part of my girl's pedigree, but I don't know enough to deeply evaluate what that means. I can't say what was earned through a rigorous assessment and what was not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

kimbale said:


> Very true, and good advice. When I purchased my WGSL puppy I made sure to buy from a breeder who participates in Sieger Shows and continues to adhere to SV standards, eventhough they breed in the US. My breeder travels back and forth to Germany quite often and works with German kennels to train and import dogs.
> 
> I would recommend the OP finds a breeder who continues to adhere to the SV standards and participates in Sieger Shows. Find a few and talk with them about their dogs, meet the dogs, etc. I would be happy to make a few recommendations. By finding a breeder who continues to participate in Sieger and adheres to the SV, that tells you that the breeder is serious about producing quality WGSL dogs and that they respect the standard.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


I agree with this and disagree with this. I am a breeder who does not follow the SV-model, mostly because, [puts head in guillotine], most people want a GSD, but do not ever intend to do schutzhund or IPO if you prefer, bitework, protection sports, herding, police or military work, SAR or seeing eye-type service dogs. Even those that want service dogs, mostly want the dogs who can be better labeled, emotional support dogs. Frankly, they want a GSD in looks only. 

Which runs the risk of creating GSDs with golden temperaments. GSDs need to be successful pets. And they should have a stronger temperment than a golden. And I am certainly producing that, some of my dogs are successful in several of the above persuits, but I think people really need to be honest with themselves on what they want in a dog, and then they should go to a breeder who produces what they want in a dog. Maybe someone who goes a step higher than what they want and honestly expect to do with a dog. 

If you have a club picked out and have paid for your first year of IPO, than a step higher, might be someone who raises dogs who compete in IPO championships. If you are thinking of training the dog to a BH level, then you probably want someone who titles their dogs in IPO. If you want a great pet that you intend to take to obedience classes, than maybe you want a breeder who titles their dog in something, agility, herding, obedience, Rally. Then you are probably getting a pup that has a great chance of being capable of going to that level, might be able to go much further, but probably not completely over-kill when it comes to having a great pet who is happy to hang around the house getting its ears pulled by the grandchildren. 

I am not saying working line dogs can't manage that role quite well. Unfortunately a lot of people see what police dogs do, and say, "I want that, I want a police dog." Heck, I did myself. And 20 years ago, I certainly did not have the energy or drive to take on a pup with the energy and training requirements to succeed as a police/military dog. 

I am currently watching my friends with band-aids all over their hands and arms with a pup who leads with its teeth. It is WGSL. It will probably be a great dog, in time. But this is a pup whose counterparts are often complained about here, and who probably do not make it through without being re-homed at least once. He is a landshark, has an independent nature, tons of energy, and a stubborn streak. His owners have had 8 GSDs prior to him, all one at a time. So these people are not novice owners. This is not typical of WGSL dogs, though Litter-order is little talked about, and yes, there are a span of temperaments in each litter. This seems to be more typical in the working lines, and a lot of owners find themselves over-matched. 

Heck, we learn a lot more from the tough ones than we do from the dream-puppies, like my Quinnie. Quinnie is not going to improve my leadership or my skill as a trainer. But she is a pleasure to own. That little landshark will. Kojak might because he is a little different, I will have to work at finding a motivator for him. But Odin, the alligator or landshark is going to move his non-novice GSD owners into a whole new direction. 

And frankly, a lot of people do not need, and do not want to be moved into a whole different mindset in raising puppies and managing dogs. 

Breeders who are breeding for IPO champion-dogs are making their selections for energy, drive, independence, working ability, and more, that a lot of owners aren't expecting and have no idea how to manage. The reason these breeders are successful in putting their pups in pet-homes, is because, they usually find pet homes that are very active, pet homes that are very experienced, and every litter has a span of temperaments. 

Most GSD owners want a pet that is good with the children and the neighbor's kids, that they can take with them everywhere, that is relatively easy to train and manage, and that is beautiful. Temperament is key. One can produce good temperament without doing IPO. 

The German breeders of the WGSL dogs put titles on their dogs. Yes. But their focus is not on the titling process. That is not what they are breeding for. It is not where their emphasis is. Just like an American Show Line breeder might put a herding title on their show dog, but from day one they are training the dog for the conformation ring, and herding is something they may do on the side for fun with the dog. In Germany, they have to have that title to get pink papers on the pup, so it means a little more to them. But it isn't their focal point and it should not be. 

Talk to individual breeders, and gauge their knowledge, and meet their dogs. Ask a lot of question. Mark certain things as red flags -- no go, and yellow flags -- need to ask more questions and get comfortable with this. 

In the book Farmer Boy, by Laura Ingalls Wilder, Almanzo and his father are at a fair, admiring a draft horse. And his father is very impressed with the animal, and says, "It could pull a barn!" The boy say, but why would we want him to pull a barn. The Morgan can pull the buggy and work in the fields. The man said, "you're right, son, it would be a shame to feed all that muscle." We all do not want or need a dog that has all the traits of a police working dog or schutzhund champion dog. We need good temperament and good health, and then what our ideal is in conformation.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The west German showlines are often higher in price then asl because they often show and have their dogs titles in IPO which is costly. Asl often have championship show titles on their dogs but there are breeders that compete and have titles in different venues. I have both asl and wgsl they make me incredibly happy. Both different structures. I keep in touch with the breeders and my daughter wants to have a pup from each breeder when she is old enough to go out on her own. I will also say go out and see and meet the different lines get a list of breeders meet the dogs see what you may like. When you find a reputable breeder they will be helpful matching up with what you are looking for. My asl does not lack in having a protective instinct and our wgsl pup is super sweet and social- both gorgeous! You will often hear people make statements according to their likes,wants, needs, and experiences but it is indvidual opinions and does not constitute a whole. So it is important to decide what you like and what you need in a German shepherd. If you are looking for a great family dog, to go on hikes, enjoy hanging out and watching tv and have a natural protective instinct then any reputable German shepherd breeder of any line will be able to provide you with such a pup.


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## Charlene LP (Mar 8, 2017)

thank you so much!

we get our pup next week from Vagermansherpherds in Milton


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## Charlene LP (Mar 8, 2017)

Hey, I'm in Canada can I still be a part of the Facebook group?


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## Charlene LP (Mar 8, 2017)

kimbale said:


> Very true, and good advice. When I purchased my WGSL puppy I made sure to buy from a breeder who participates in Sieger Shows and continues to adhere to SV standards, eventhough they breed in the US. My breeder travels back and forth to Germany quite often and works with German kennels to train and import dogs.
> 
> I would recommend the OP finds a breeder who continues to adhere to the SV standards and participates in Sieger Shows. Find a few and talk with them about their dogs, meet the dogs, etc. I would be happy to make a few recommendations. By finding a breeder who continues to participate in Sieger and adheres to the SV, that tells you that the breeder is serious about producing quality WGSL dogs and that they respect the standard.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Hey so this the breeder we picked

German Shepherd Puppies For Sale Ontario - Ontario Breeder German Shepherd Breeder | German Shepherd Puppies For Sale Ontario | German Shepherd Pups | German Shepherd Breeders Ontario | German Shepherd Puppies | - Home


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Charlene LP said:


> Hey so this the breeder we picked
> 
> German Shepherd Puppies For Sale Ontario - Ontario Breeder German Shepherd Breeder | German Shepherd Puppies For Sale Ontario | German Shepherd Pups | German Shepherd Breeders Ontario | German Shepherd Puppies | - Home


Looks like some good dogs. They seem committed to their kennel. Which sire and dam?

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## Love4gsds (Apr 24, 2017)

Thank you ! very useful information as I am researching to purchase a GSD


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## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

Xeph said:


> Yup...WGSL exist all over America, but that doesn't mean they'll be bred to SV standards. Even dogs that are bred to SV standards (whether here or overseas) doesn't guarantee high quality (in terms of work).
> 
> There are excellent WGSL though. I started with one who was half WGSL, my last litter was sired by one (who has excellent work, really like the dog).
> 
> ...


Great looking dogs!


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