# Help with bite inhibition training - adult dog



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My new 5-6yo foster has ZERO bite inhibition for mouthing when happy and excited. Yesterday I accidentally set his play-thing off and have bruised arms over thick layers of winter clothing. I am really sore today. Otherwise he is very friendly and loving.

I am seeking tips and experiences regarding bite control training in very adult dogs that have no clue - and how to do it without major injuries to me.

Unfortunately I don't have trainers in the area that can handle something like this so I am on my own. 

Is there anyone selling an old (not too expensive) bite suit?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

bump


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Did you go to the puppy site for an entire stick thread for this? Even though your dog is an adult, I'd treat it just the same as a puppy. Seems like the same issue, only knowing one way to play (like all dogs do with each other) it involves the mouth (which means ouch to us) so we just need to TEACH a better way for dog and human to enjoy!

This is the link 

Happy and excited is a good thing. Off hand, just buying alot of long tug toys to keep the play behavior I want with me (great bonding experience) with the distance I need (to keep those teeth away!)


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for the link. I think this is very different from normal mouthing though. I trained quite a few puppies and teenagers that were mouthy. This is different because of the possible injuries of an adult GSD biting down full strength in play (both my arms and my back are a tesimony to this - I turned my back to him to protect the arms and he got me under the shoulderblade). I had two long-sleeve Tshirts a fleece sweater and a sherpa jacket on at that time and he certainly got me.

I figured that I will lead a long leash behind a post behind him so that I can pull him off me when he starts charging at me next time.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Well, being as determined as he is, I'd go for the hand down the throat method.

You're going to set him up by getting him riled up and then put your hand down by his mouth. The second his mouth goes over your hand - push your hand forward INTO his throat.

He won't like that and should back off your hand on his own. Then you can give TONS of praise and treats.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow! I never thought of that - it sounds scary. I never tried that, I wish those teeth were not in the way. I'll work through this idea, have to mentally rehearse the moves to be ready when the time comes.









Maybe I am just not very brave today being so sore and bruised today after yesterday's "playtime".








I was doing my best to be soooooo low key and boring today.

Thanks for the tip.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Well, I still don't know why you'd even bother to play with your body and his mouth at all. You are right, it can cause alot more damage with an adult dog. 

But, to me, it's EXACTLY the same situation. And modifying the dog's behavior so he learns to play with a toy (and you) not just using you AS the toy. 

I know alot of people like to roughhouse with their dogs, but (for me) I just can't really push it with my GSD's for a long time (ever?) cause they just really can get so excited and tend to forget how delicate I am. 

So instead of playing with them and MOST of the time not having my blood drawn from the roughhousing. I'd prefer they learn to go get a tug toy and bring it to me, and then we play with that toy (even with that I can get nailed if not careful). 

So NO play with my body, I never invite it. And will turn away and then leave if it starts up. But I will get a toy or play with a toy.

BTW, I know alot of my problems with my dogs when they are going over the top is when I haven't been able to REALLY exercise them for a few days. Those miles and miles of offleash hiking in the woods does wonderful things for their bite inhibition when we get home. Curled in a ball in the dog bed means my body gets a break from being a chew toy!

And dog classes! Mental and physical exercise/stimuation make all the difference.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

First of all, this is not my dog. This is also not one of "your dogs" that has been with you for a while and that you have possibly raised since the dog was a puppy.

It is a dog that I picked up at the shelter three days ago and whose play habits and history I know nothing about. This is a dog that has not shown any interest in any toys yet, beyond me as his toy for 30 seconds. It is a dog that has severe upper respiratory infection. This is a dog that in 15 minutes shredded a wire mesh crate into individual wires so it is pretty much impossible to confine him. I will not try to force him into a crate at this time. This is a dog that could potentially rip me apart, if he wanted to.

WHY I BOTHER TO PLAY? I took the dog out to potty and suddenly, in 30 second I was chomped up. I have no idea why. I did not BOTHER to ask a dog to chomp me up in 30 seconds. What kind of mental excercise do you suggest for the 30 seconds while I was in excruciating pain from a playful dog practicing bitework on me because he does not know better? 

I fostered, until now, approximately 100 dogs (mostly such dogs that other rescues and fosters would not touch) that I knew nothing about and used the "universal" methods you described above. So I know everything about physical and mental exercise and stimulation and not letting dogs play with my body. I know the literature too. Based on my experience of working with and rehabilitating 100+ difficult and untrained dogs, this is not EXACTLY the same. Anybody who has not watched this and is not in my shoes is out of line telling me that is EXACTLY the same. And listening to the exactly same advice I could get myself injured.

I certainly did not invite him to roughhouse with me and I stopped moving the moment he started biting on me. When I turned away he jumped up and made a 6 inch long 2 inch wide bruise on my back, with a scratch in the middle. Through four layers of clothing. This all took 30 seconds. I was wondering if he would ever stop. I had a problem figuring out how to position myself in bed last night because I was so bruised.

Occasionally there are situations in life which are not EXACTLY THE SAME as every other cookie-cutter situation when one can cut-and paste something off the internet as the universal solution. I say this is, based on the experience of the 100+ difficult dogs I successfully rehabilitated, one of those situations. It also may take more than a patronizing and superior attitude to solve the problem. It will take some thinking "out of the box" to save this dog's life, who is sweet and happy and unintentionally very unsafe at the same time. This is what I am trying to do. 

I will play with the dog when I can figure out how to play with him safely. Right now I don't know. I will take him out into the street when I figure out how to handle him safely (my own safety and others). I will not take him to obedience class or let him be handled by others as long as I am not sure that he is safe. Unfortunately I cannot go hiking during the work week and I probably would not do it with a dog I am not sure I can reliably handle. Off-leash hiking?
That would really be irresponsible with an animal that is a potential liability, does not know me, does not know his name or commands.

I know 2 trainers that could handle him but they will not bother with a rescue dog. The others I know would tell me to put him down (I got that advice for much lesser problems). So I am looking for non-cookie-cutter solutions to save this guy's life and I am pretty much on my own with this.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I've been pondering this one and definitely appreciate the difficult position that a fosterer is in when they find themselves with a dog like this. It's not enough to manage them while they're at our house, we've got to make them safe, so that they not only never do this to us again, they never do it to a child or anyone else who inadvertantly gets them riled up. 

If this can't be fixed, the dog will have to be put down so I know the stakes are very high. 

Thinking.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree. I am first learning to figure out to handle him safely myself. I feel that he is a sweet dog who has no idea what he is doing and I do want to give him the best chance I can - now that I already accepted responsibility for him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I wonder if someone who has done bite training with a dog has some ideas, signs of impending behavior, or even words that can be used. I was thinking someone played around with protection training this dog for fun?

Short of a basket muzzle...which I don't know...maybe? 

When you take these dogs you understand that they are big, powerful, and unknown. Some of them just remind you of it more than others. 

Will continue to think.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

If he did protection training, it was not good work. He was not doing the really "full" bites or "holding". Lucky for me.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You should take some arnica. There is also an arnica salve that is good for bruising. I would use both, they will help a lot.

I'm not sure I understand quite what is happening with this dog. Is he chewing on you all of the time or is he just wild when he's outside and keyed up? Does it seem like he's had protection training and it was not taught correctly? Does he seem to think that he should play with you like he'd play with another dog? These are serious questions. 

Years ago when I was volunteering with a gsd rescue in WI we took in a dog who had been kept in a chicken coop for his entire life. He had no social skills whatsoever and thought chewing on arms and legs and taking people down was great fun. He was HUGE! His foster family (very experienced gsd handlers) kept him on leash with either a heavy duty harness or a prong (can't remember which one) and had people come over to the house to give the dog treats and basically just sit there with him. 

He did learn bite inhibition but it took a while and a lot of work and he was never allowed to be off leash until he got it. He went to some very experienced and committed people who had acreage out in the country. He did redirect to toys though. Is there anything this guy is interested in? Food? Any kind of toy? Squeaking toy? Rope?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I accidentally set it off, not sure how. He was axious and I would like him to do some running in the yard. This only lasted 30 seconds so I am very happy that he stopped that quickly. I may have stumped my foot to get him to run, I am not really sure, it happaned so quickly. He is not fearful so this was not a fear reaction.

I handled him cut the matted hair off and he was mainly just axious. Also anxious and whining in the car. He occasionally tries to grab clothes and nip for attention, wagging his tail, that is minor and can be stopped. He is not shy or fearful. He is horribly neglected, matted, dirty, half of the ears have no hair.

I am trying to find a toy that he might like - without setting him off, so I am very careful. I am hoping to displace the play from person to toy. Best would be if he would always carry a toy in his mouth like many of the shephersd I have. This is my current long-term goal.

I know pretty much nothing about him, slowly and carfully I am working on it.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am doing it with the leash too, I am having him drag the leash so that I can grab it if needed.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Sorry if this sounds silly, too, but do can you let him play with a well-socialized dog? Dogs tend to teach these things to eachother very fast and efficiently. Our Cili was never so dangerous but she did think it was fun to grab humans for attention. Our old hound thought her eventually that gentle nudging gets you play while rough bites just shut everyone down.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This dog was a disgusting mess too. Lived his whole life on mounds of poo in the chicken coop. No one had ever even touched him--they shoved his food into him with a pole.









Are you walking this guy? If you have time I'd say that working up to really long walks could help a lot with the anxiety and with the pent up energy.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Oh and yes, a training collar and a leash sound like a very good idea. I really wish I could help.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I thought of that too, my dogs don't appreciate other males or roughhousing. I don't have a safe way of doing it right now. The other concern is, if he gets riled up with other dogs, as in happy play, I may have trouble getting him off (safely for myself). He tested OK with other dogs at the shelter and he did not show any aggresstion through the crate so this is a possibility. I have to figure out a good way to do it. 

At this time I am just trying to keep everything as low key as possible until I get to know him better.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I will start walking him. Again, a little concern that he goes off in the street and someone else gets involved. I'll start late at night, yesterday I was too sore.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Go get the Arnica for yourself! 

I would use a really good training collar if you have one. I find I get the most overall body control with a harness. 

Has this happened more than once or just that once? Poor dog, he must be as confused as you are! 

What about Rescue Remedy for him?


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

If you are not too far away maybe we could set up a playdate. Tatar is absolutely bomb-proof. If he doesn't like the other dog's play-style, he just walks away. He can calm down Cili in like 2 minutes, and she, too, starts out usually like someone ready to blow.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree that using another dog is the best way to teach. You'll also get a better idea about what is going on with this guy. What is his name, btw?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I appreciate the playdate offer - I may take up that one down the road. I want to get to know him better before I let him loose on the world. I visualize him getting "happy" in the car.

It happened only once, on Sunday evening, and I have been VERY low-key since. I tried to ace him on the first day when he shredded the crate - no visible effects. The good nows is that he is not having accidents and he is not tearing up his room.

I use the prong coupled with a long choker as backup.

Where can I get the Arnica?

He seems happy and is wagging his tail as we gou out (not to play).


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Carter


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

You are right. If he can not be crated, then a car ride would be downright dangerous. If you would ever consider this, just shoot me a note, maybe we could drive to you.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks, I really appreciate the offer. I might take you up on this one. I am still getting to know him so it may be two weeks or so before we dare to venture outside into the unknown.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Not sure where you are but around here you can get the Arnica at a health food store or a major grocery store or pharmacy with a good natural health section.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

OK, let me know. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be. I totally understand that you want to know him better before doing anything drastic.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Depending on how things will develop, I will also look into acquiring a used bitesuit. Anyone knows of someone selling one or willing to loan me one?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Just be careful - in case someone HAS done some poorly executed "protection" training and he sees the suit as an invitation. You might see if you meet up with someone who has a sleeve and see how he reacts to it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Bitesuits are VERY expensive, heavy and difficult to move around in. You may instead want to look for the protective pants helpers wear in Schutzhund - you might find a used one at a decent price. You can get jackets of the same material too.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I was wondering whether he "misinterpreted" my winter clothing. My trainer's dog, who just started on the bite-suit, took a "bite" into someone blue down jacket that looked similar enough - by mistake. The dogs was a really friendly guy and it was a "misunderstanding".


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would hold off on the protective clothing until you figure out what's going on. This just may be an exuberant dog who has had no training and thinks mugging people is fun. 

I'd work more on redirecting that behavior/reaction than encouraging it.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I would not want to encourage him, rather just protect myself in case he tries mugging me again (I think he did it for fun as he was not upset or growling or barking) so that I can handle him without worrying about getting hurt and responding in pain. I could handle him better if I were less susceptible to his mugging attempts.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Any chance of him tolerating a muzzle?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have not tried yet. What I am trying to do is redirect his play to a ball or a tug to keep his mouth busy and remove his focus from my clothing or body parts as toy. In order to do that, his mouth has to be free. My concen is riling him up with a toy or anything else at this time as his focus can easily shift back to me and his usual mugging behavior. So I am doing a lot of thinking first to figure out how to set him (and myself) up for success.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqJust be careful - in case someone HAS done some poorly executed "protection" training and he sees the suit as an invitation. You might see if you meet up with someone who has a sleeve and see how he reacts to it.


Excellent point.

When I first met Max (my current GSD), he had some of these behaviors. He somehow was given TERRIBLE "police training", and his next owner would wrap a sweatshirt around his arm and they would "play" as the Max would "play bite". That owner was left bruised and hurt very often. But this is what Max was taught was "normal" and was "play". In addition, he was never taught how to turn that off.

LUCKILY, Max isn't at all aggressive. That training, with a dog that is aggressive, would have been very very scary. Well, it was scary when we first got him, but because of his good temprament, we were able to teach Max what is appropriate, but it took quite awhile.

If this is Carter's background, then he really doesn't know what is right and wrong, and what is play and what isn't. Anything that was remotely excitable would trigger him.

Essentially, as MLR noted earlier, we went back to puppy training. It was difficult though because as an adult, and with his other behaviors, there was an expectation that was very different than the reality.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Glad to hear that it can be done. I wish I knew something about this dog - overall he seems to have a good temperament. Unfortunately Carter's biting is so painful that I am incapable of even thinking of handling toys at that time. Until I find a better protection for my body, I cannot afford to set this off. My arms and back are too damaged right now. I am lucky this was not summer.
How long did it take to retrain Max?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

It really sounds to me that he wants to play with you. A good thing.

But only knows how to do this using his mouth on your body. A bad thing.

Really go to the puppy site with the bite inhibition, cause though your problem is MUCH larger in size, that doesn't change the fact that it's the same basic issue.

If you are consistant, I'm betting he's a normal GSD and will catch on VERY fast. If he grabs you, ANY part of you, at any time.........you quietly and calmly (no talking!!!!) tuck in all body parts to they are unavailable for grabbing and TURN AWAY. Just keep giving him your back until he calms down. 

And the toys you need to buy have long long long ropes or are just long period. So they can easily be thrown and easily show the dog that the end (away from your hand is the good part).

Fleecy Clean Tennis Ball Knot Tug for Dogs










Combat Extreme Toss n’ Pull Dog Toy










Water Kong










Once again, I'd also really recommend as many miles of exercise and hours of out of the house socialization. Will help take the focus off you and generally stabilize his temperment in the home.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I raised two litters of rescue puppies from birth to adoption and I also rescued, rehabilitated and placed 30+ untrained dogs ages 2-18 months. I have two shelves with dog training books and DVDs that I read, watched and applied in the rehabilitation of the dogs. I trained with 4 professional dog trainers for years. I send adopters home with links about training. I have an assortment of dog toys in my home.

When I turned my back to Carter (as you recommend) he jumped up and got me on my back. He did not stop biting me. I have a 6inch long 2inch wide swollen bruise under my shoulder blade from that. I am sure there are people out there who do better with pain and injuries than I - however I cannot handle more rounds of this. So the question was how to do it safely for me. The general book recommendations are unfortunately not helpful with this. Even though this dog does not bite out of aggression, it does not hurt any less.

I agree that socialization away from home and exercise are great for any dog, including this one. This is something I tell every adopter. At this point this particular dog can be set off by anything, and is a liability. Since I cannot afford (getting sued etc.) anybody beyond me getting hurt if he decides to play, his socialization will be limited until he is safe.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I have to direct Bandcsmom to this thread. She has a foster just like this. She's had him a year and a half. You are correct...turning her back...just gave him another target. While things have gotten better...and she can read him better and the occurances are lesser (or maybe it's just that she knows how to handle them better)...he is still not over this. You can compare bruises...lol.

He's been through training class...gets lots of exercise...and is a gem in public and with other dogs. But this is his quirk. 

Yet...he's a sweet boy....not a mean bone in his body...not that it doesn't hurt any less...lol. 


Seriously...I hope you two can help eachother.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

That would be great, thanks.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDI raised two litters of rescue puppies from birth to adoption and I also rescued, rehabilitated and placed 30+ untrained dogs ages 2-18 months. I have two shelves with dog training books and DVDs that I read, watched and applied in the rehabilitation of the dogs. I trained with 4 professional dog trainers for years. I send adopters home with links about training. I have an assortment of dog toys in my home.
> 
> When I turned my back to Carter (as you recommend) he jumped up and got me on my back. He did not stop biting me. I have a 6inch long 2inch wide swollen bruise under my shoulder blade from that. I am sure there are people out there who do better with pain and injuries than I - however I cannot handle more rounds of this. So the question was how to do it safely for me. The general book recommendations are unfortunately not helpful with this. Even though this dog does not bite out of aggression, it does not hurt any less.
> 
> I agree that socialization away from home and exercise are great for any dog, including this one. This is something I tell every adopter. At this point this particular dog can be set off by anything, and is a liability. Since I cannot afford (getting sued etc.) anybody beyond me getting hurt if he decides to play, his socialization will be limited until he is safe.


I would get someone to help that isn't scared of him. (obviously you have experience I am not trying to insult you) It sounds like you are working hard to avoid anything that might set him off, which I would guess is sending some confusing and nervous energy his way.
Have you tried using a regular well-fitted flat buckle collar on him? 

I would definitely not take the leash off him, but you should be able to stop him if he starts jumping and biting again with the leash if needed. 
Make sure his collar is high on high neck (when training or taking him outside where he had his incident) you should be able to use your leash or grab his collar to pull up and he should go into a sit. You are not choking him or shaking him, just pull up with pressure (it shouldn't take much) and he should calm down. This is what I would have to do with the imported dogs at a kennel I worked at. 
We had shepherds, malinois', and dutch shepherds of various ages, and often they were wild and crazy, and some would jump and try to bite the leash, you, etc. 
Lastly, this technique is for safety with a dog who you are not familiar with or in a similiar situation as the ops, not training to sit, etc. and not to be used when you are angry or afraid. If you are to nervous to do this, I would recommend having someone with experience _handling_ this kind of dog around.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Unfortunately I don't have anyone who wants to deal/bother with him and get bitten. I have already said a couple of times that I am in it alone. I also don't want to get sued if he bites someone. 

I sure hope I can grab his collar faster than he bites, his biting parts were somewhat in the way when it happened last. 

You make it sound as if there were armies of people who can hardly wait for this dog, I have yet to meet one. In the past I did pay thousands of dollars to a trainer (who had a lot of experience in handling such dogs) for in board training of a difficult dog. The dog was released to me as safe by the trainer and then tried to bite a person the first time he was exposed to the challenge - with the trainer knowing how to handle and rehabilitate actually handling the dog. I noticed no difference in the fear aggression response of the dog before and after the expensive training. 

You are right, I am avoiding getting bitten. This dog is in my home, not in the kennel so I am exposed to him whenever I am at home. It is not exactly a 15 or 30-minute training session. He cannot be crated.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I've worked with a few adult dogs who had biting problems and there are some methods that are really effective. I'll see if I can offer some tips.

First, as you probably have already started, is to establish leadership by using NILIF and making him work for food, attention, etc. Getting him to focus on you as a leader will do wonders. I know you've only had him a few days, but it doesn't usually take too long until NILIF starts to have an effect. When he respects you as his leader, and realizes that you control everything, he should take your lead much better.

I think it would be a good idea to tether him while working on this, so that you have an escape route if needed (as you already mentioned). The last thing you want to do for his training is to let him think that he CAN jump and bite at you, so there are reasons even beyond your safety that make this important. I would recommend a flat collar for this. If you have a prong collar on him, and he lunges on it, that may actually encourage the excitement. You want to encourage calmness.

Another note: using different areas for this training is going to be more effective. Do one session one place, then the next session somewhere else, etc. Repeating in the same place all the time is only going to make him think he can't bite there. Dogs don't generalize well until we show them that a behavior is expected everywhere, not just where it was trained.

I'm going to assume, for the sake of this post, that you have good body language and verbal skills when it comes to dogs (given that you've fostered so many). I'm sure you understand that a low calm voice creates calm in a dog, that a high-pitched squeaky voice will excite many dogs, and that verbal corrections (I really like "EHT!" or even "ARRR!" *L*) are best given in a low voice, as loud as needed but definitely low.

Once you have him tethered, I would interact normally with him. Keep a fairly active verbal connection with him, with lots of calm "goood boy .. what a wonderful boy you are .. I like it when you're calm" kind of comments. Chattering can be very effective when used right. As long as he's staying calm and non-reactive, he gets continual praise and maybe even treats (I tend to use treats because they increase a dog's enthusiasm, which therefore makes a dog try harder to give you what you want).

At some point you'll need him to get excited. You may have to initiate this on purpose. You want to control it as much as possible, though, so be toward the end of the tethered length and be watching him carefully. At the FIRST sign that he's getting excited (getting a bit too bouncy, face changes, eyes change, etc.) you step away and give a firm verbal correction. Then you turn your back and walk away. He can't get to you, so you're safe - and he has no "good" feedback so he's not being reinforced. Give him a minute or so to calm down and return to him - only going all the way back IF he remains calm. Praise with that comforting low voice when he is calm. And then initiate the excitement again, repeat the verbal correction and the walking away. Do this a few times and hopefully you will see him start to think about his behavior and maybe not getting excited at the level you're initiating.

Try to stop on a good note, quiet praise and maybe a run in a fenced area for reward. Continue doing this as often as you can (2-3 times a day would be ideal) and gradually increase the amount of whatever you're doing to create excitement in him. If this works properly, he should stop getting excited at a mild amount of encouragement in you (like maybe clapping your hands and raising your voice in a "wow, we're excited" manner). When you do that, he should actually stay calm and expect you to praise and reward him. So you have to up the ante so that he continues to learn to be non-reactive.

Now, with many dogs I've added in a visual cue. I've used a piece of doweling, maybe 3' or so in length, of a heavy enough size to make a nice sound when smacked on the ground. This would only work with dogs who are not reactive to a stick (some cower, some attack - you want a non-reactive or mildly reactive dog or the stick shouldn't be used). The stick is used in conjunction with the verbal command, with the end pounded on the floor so that it becomes part of the "bad dog" sound. Used continually, there comes a point where all you have to do is carry the stick and the dog is reminded that he needs to control himself.

Now, as you go through this kind of training, you may end up having to add in physical corrections. Starting with the verbal will let you see what happens with him and then you can assess the situation from there. But I would give him several days without any physical corrections to see if he's starting to come around before considering anything beyond the verbal "EHT". And I really believe that corrections work much better when a dog respects you - and respect takes time. The NILIF will help establish leadership which then builds respect, and when that is established a correction is much more effective. 

It's very possible that he will never be trustworthy like other dogs are, but he might work through this enough to be placed in a home successfully. He probably just doesn't know how to act, and once that's explained to him and he's thought about it (which they do, trying to figure out how to get the response they want from you) then you will likely see a huge difference.

Hope you heal up soon!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks everybody for the input.

Melanie you put it very clearly into words what I was working towards, somewhat intuitively. I was not sure how to introduce the excitement, so this really helps. Desensitizing him to excitement is going to be the key to a long term solution. These descriptions give me a much more clear picture of how to handle the details. One thing I was thinking of adding in the desensitization exercises is double-leash handling: one leash as the normal training leash and the second a safety leash looped behind a tree and the end in my hand, so that I can pull him off more easily if things go wrong. I am not sure I can pull him off efficiently with the training leash when he is in action. 

I was trying to remember what set him off, and it was definitely my 'fault'. I was trying to get him more exercise and invited him to run and play by stumping my foot a little and giving him a pat/rub (really mild) on his side, I was going to say "run boy" when **** broke loose. I guess he saw that as 'play' invitation. He seemed happy, friendly and self-confident enough, so I though that he can handle it - my mistake.

We made good progress over the past two days, I was able to get him to fetch the stick without getting him wound up, which is a step toward more exercise. He is less interested in the ball (won't pick it up) and he did not "recognize" the Sch tug. It is raining badly and his coat was soaked in not time today. I'll work on focus over the weekend. We did some calm snuggling and talking and he is leaning on me and is enjoying it too, so we are working on that. It calmed him down, not excited, so that is a good direction.

For the time being I am careful with treats and rewards as in NILIF. Withholding a reward does get him excited and the first sign is nipping on my clothes and hands (not bad), so I am taking it slowly with that. Ignoring him gets him excited. I have to see whether frustration will set him off and gradually build up tolerance. By the time I get home from work it is dark, so that makes things more complicated (harder to read his signals ouside). The excitement accident happened in the dark so it was hard too see what was going on, grab his collar that I could not even see, or do anything else. I, agree, corrections would not be appropriate yet.
General obedience will make a big difference for his self-control and focus indirectly, so we'll slowly work towards that.

I am not afraid of him or nervous with him, but I am very careful and calm with any of my actions and movements. I know that I can set him off if I make a mistake in handling. I will live through getting chomped up again, but I would rather not.

But the past three days, so far so good.


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## BandCsMom (Feb 3, 2007)

Hi RebelGSD, 
My friend Myamom told me about your post. I am the one who has a 1-2 year old mouthy male. He was found running in a tree farm and we adopted him out, but obviously not to anyone who has any GSD knowledge or wants to be consistent and give him the time that he needs. He is a good dog and is affectionate when he really wants to be, but has moments when he thinks it's "play time" and he gets too keyed up and starts getting mouthy. He has given me numerous bruises on many occassions.(none of them breaking the skin) I know he is not aggressive in any manner. He just doesn't know any better, was not taught by his previous owners, he didn't learn bite inhibition from his pack, or all of the above. I have given him toys,(which he didn't know what to do with at first)he just loves his kong with peanut butter! He has improved alot in the year and 1/2 that I have had him. The last place he was going to go was to be a K-9, which we thought would be great for him, but obviously they checked his hips and the results came back severe hip AND elbow displaysia. I tell you this poor boy can't get a break. We just had his elbows done and now he is on limited exercise, so I can't even take him for the walks that he could use to get some of that energy out. So I know exactly what you are going through. I recently tried just standing with both my hands out in front of me and said "NO, STOP"!! I think it worked. I only used it once so far. Any more ideas that I come up with I will let you know. 
Good Luck
Karen


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