# Sudden Aggression? Over Excitement?



## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

We have a 9 1/2 month old male GSD named Jake. We have had a dog walker come to our house every day we work since Jake was 9 weeks old. They come to feed him his lunch meal and take him out to do business.

All of a sudden today, Jake bit the dog walker in the arm while they were in the front yard getting him to do business. I don't know all the details yet, but we are meeting with them tomorrow night to discuss. When the dog walker attempted to get him back in his crate and taking his leash off he kept trying to bite.

I'm not home right now to assess Jake's condition at all. I know Jake get's very excited when they come and he has always loved them. All within 15 minutes they arrive, he gets fed and let out for business and is always over excited for them. So I'm not sure if this is an something that happened as a result of over excitement or if it is an aggression issue.

We have not had Jake to obedience classes, but have done home training and while he's not the best behaved dog in the world, he is manageable for us. I can understand that there would be inconsistencies between how we handle Jake and how they handle him.

Understandably they don't want to come tomorrow until we've had a chance to discuss the incident.

Any initial ideas? We were going to start weaning him onto 2 feedings a day now that his digestive issues are resolved so that could eliminate the need for them to come feed him every day, but that doesn't address what happened.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

The big question is whether this was an excitement bite or an aggressive deliberate bite. The first one is no big deal and is readily fixed. The second one is much more serious and needs professional training to deal with.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

I just read the following link and I have an appointment to take Jake to the vet tomorrow morning. Alot of the signs that are listed for Thyroid problems explain Jake to a T.

DODDS-BEHV-THYROID


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Elaine said:


> The big question is whether this was an excitement bite or an aggressive deliberate bite. The first one is no big deal and is readily fixed. The second one is much more serious and needs professional training to deal with.


Thanks Elaine. I've only been communicating via text message with them, but they definitely said it was aggressive type bite as opposed to over excitement.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

lzver said:


> I'm not home right now to assess Jake's condition at all. I know Jake get's very excited when they come and he has always loved them. All within 15 minutes they arrive, he gets fed and let out for business and is always over excited for them. So I'm not sure if this is an something that happened as a result of over excitement or if it is an aggression issue.
> 
> Understandably they don't want to come tomorrow until we've had a chance to discuss the incident.
> 
> Any initial ideas? We were going to start weaning him onto 2 feedings a day now that his digestive issues are resolved so that could eliminate the need for them to come feed him every day, but that doesn't address what happened.


Keep in mind that over excitement can in some instances slip over into aggression.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Keep in mind that over excitement can in some instances slip over into aggression.


Yes, I could see that. He definitely gets over excited when they are there. But I read other things related to thyroid issues that could explain some of the nervousness, allergies, itchy skin, incessant whining and lack of concentration issues we have been experiencing with Jake over the last 2 months or so. I've read enough to at least warrant a trip to the vet for some testing.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

lzver said:


> Yes, I could see that. He definitely gets over excited when they are there. But I read other things related to thyroid issues that could explain some of the nervousness, allergies, itchy skin, incessant whining and lack of concentration issues we have been experiencing with Jake over the last 2 months or so. I've read enough to at least warrant a trip to the vet for some testing.


Definitely do the vet visit. Wasn't meaning for that to come out negatively towards the vet visit. Just throwing out another idea that is sometimes overlooked.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Definitely do the vet visit. Wasn't meaning for that to come out negatively towards the vet visit. Just throwing out another idea that is sometimes overlooked.


No offense taken at all Twyla


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Hypothetical Situations.....Which of the two is more probable?

A frustrated dog walker who is having marriage problems, just got laid off, and had a fight with their kid comes to your house to let your german shepherd out. Your dog is having to much fun running around and keeps running away so they can't put the collar on him. The handler gets frustrated and begins handling the dog roughly. When they are outside, the handler jerks the dog and yells at it to hurry and potty. The dog doesn't know what to do and tries to get away from the handler, who pops him with the leash. Then there is a bite.

OR

The dog walker loves your dog to death and is in a perfectly happy mood. She lets your dog out of his kennel ,feeds him, then plays with him. Next she takes him outside (as she has every day for the past few months) and out of nowhere he bites her for no reason.



Just bringing up the possibility..


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Hypothetical Situations.....Which of the two is more probable?
> 
> A frustrated dog walker who is having marriage problems, just got laid off, and had a fight with their kid comes to your house to let your german shepherd out. Your dog is having to much fun running around and keeps running away so they can't put the collar on him. The handler gets frustrated and begins handling the dog roughly. When they are outside, the handler jerks the dog and yells at it to hurry and potty. The dog doesn't know what to do and tries to get away from the handler, who pops him with the leash. Then there is a bite.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the suggestions. I highly doubt the first situation applies. It is always hard to know exactly what is going on when you aren’t there, but we have had neighbors comment on how good the dog walkers (there is a husband/wife team) are with Jake.

Again we haven’t spoken in person with them yet (we’ll do that tomorrow night) but from everything they have said nothing was different from today than other days. He had his usual level of excitement when they got there, he ate and she took him out on leash to do business. There wasn’t anyone walking by the house at the time of the incident.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Just thought I would throw it out there. Perhaps it was a redirection of some type? Maybe your dog saw another dog and wanted to go to it, but when he couldn't, he redirected his anxiety on the handler?

OR maybe he was just overly excited and mouthy?

Did it break the skin?

Yesterday I was playing with Rocky and I had a coat on inside (never done that before) and he bit my arm SO hard! No puncture but small bruises.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Are they professional dog walkers? Meaning, do they have years of experiance with many dogs and many (different) dog behaviors?

Taking your post on face value, your normally well behaved non-aggressive dog, suddenly bit the well known handler twice, although unprovoked and with malice. Without previous warning or indications of aggressiveness. 

Health issue. 

If it were me, I'd speak face to face with the walkers. I'd ask many questions and take notes. I'd want to know exactly what the behavior of my dog was from the moment they arrived till the moment they left. I'd want to know what was the behavior of my dog last week (etc.). I'd go to the vet well armed with any information provided. 

Also, don't get hung up on 'thyroid' issues (although a good place to start). It could be anything. My sister's dog suddenly bit her one evening while they were sitting on the couch. This dog has no aggression issues. I suggested taking her dog to the vet. Turns out the dog's anal glands were impacted. The dog was in serious pain. Not giving the dog a free pass on a bite, but certainly explains things.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Are they professional dog walkers? Meaning, do they have years of experiance with many dogs and many (different) dog behaviors?
> 
> Taking your post on face value, your normally well behaved non-aggressive dog, suddenly bit the well known handler twice, although unprovoked and with malice. Without previous warning or indications of aggressiveness.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback Lilie. We have a face to face meeting with the dog walker tomorrow evening ... they aren't available tonight. They are seasoned dog walkers with almost 10 years experience. We'll have to ask about their experience dealing with dealing with behavioral issues in dogs.

In talking with them today, there have been no issues with Jake recently - no other changes in behaviour. They were in our front yard with no one around. Jake did his business and when finished he jumped on them and bit him in the arm. I asked if they could think of a trigger and there wasn't any they could think of. He continued to be aggressive going into the house and he couldn't get his leash off of him because he kept trying to bite. I asked if it was possibly over excitement, but it displayed as aggression according to them. This is very out of character for Jake. He's never shown any sign of aggression in the 8 months we've had him. 

I'm not sticking to just the thyroid issue tomorrow at the vet. I realize it could be any number of things if its medical related. 

I'm taking this incident very seriously and this is not ok. It could have been one of us, our kids, friends, family or a stranger the next time (but I pray there isn't a second time). If we have a medical issue, lets deal with it. If it's the beginning of a behavioural issue, we need to know as soon as possible and start dealing with that.

As an additional note, I am home now and not noticing any abnormal behaviour with Jake. I made sure I had lots of treats on hand to re-inforce in training. When I let him out of his cage he was his usual excited self, but calmed as usual for me. We did a short obedience session and ran in the back yard. I felt him all over and didn't seem to get any response or he wasn't sensitive anywhere.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Just thought I would throw it out there. Perhaps it was a redirection of some type? Maybe your dog saw another dog and wanted to go to it, but when he couldn't, he redirected his anxiety on the handler?
> 
> OR maybe he was just overly excited and mouthy?
> 
> ...


Yes, the bite did break the skin. It's a pretty nasty looking bite after looking at the picture they sent on my phone.

Jake has only ever accidently nipped us before if he has a toy on our lap or something. He was a usual nippy pup when he was younger, but has gotten a lot better about using his mouth gently.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lzver said:


> As an additional note, I am home now and not noticing any abnormal behaviour with Jake. I made sure I had lots of treats on hand to re-inforce in training. When I let him out of his cage he was his usual excited self, but calmed as usual for me. We did a short obedience session and ran in the back yard. I felt him all over and didn't seem to get any response or he wasn't sensitive anywhere.


If if were me, I'd keep my dog seperated from my kids/family/strangers until I've gotten to the bottom of what ever the issue is, utilizing my vet as my first step.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Lilie said:


> If if were me, I'd keep my dog seperated from my kids/family/strangers until I've gotten to the bottom of what ever the issue is, utilizing my vet as my first step.


I definitely agree. That's why I took Jake into the backyard for his exercise instead of the usual walk. What happened today is one thing and our dog walker assures us it's not the first time it's happened and it's a risk of the business they are in. But until we know what is going on, Jake stays at home or is on a very short leash if outside the home.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lzver said:


> I definitely agree. That's why I took Jake into the backyard for his exercise instead of the usual walk. What happened today is one thing and our dog walker assures us it's not the first time it's happened and it's a risk of the business they are in. But until we know what is going on, Jake stays at home or is on a very short leash if outside the home.


Although I know it's your personal business, it helps many, many people who read through these threads if you can keep us updated on your progress. 

I truly hope it's something simple.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Although I know it's your personal business, it helps many, many people who read through these threads if you can keep us updated on your progress.
> 
> I truly hope it's something simple.


I definitely will update this thread.

With all the digestive issues we had with Jake early on, all the threads here and on another forum helped. And nothing annoyed me more than getting part way through and not getting any more updates.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Just got back from the vet. After a lengthy discussion they agreed it was best to rule out some medical causes first as well. So they ran what they call a Geriatric Wellness Profile. They usually run it on senior dogs, but it was the most cost effective way to run comprehensive bloodwork. It cost $150 for the test and it will check CDC, red/white blood cells, thyroid, endocrine, organ function, etc. If there is a more common underlying issue this should point to something. 

She did say though that if all the blood work comes back fine, then she recommends continuning down the behavioural path because that would be a better use of our money. And we'll accept that if the blood work doesn't find anything. Based on the advice received here and in other places, I just felt doing the tests first was the best first move. We will have the blood results back later today. If it's early enough I may run back in to pick up a copy of his test results to keep on file. I will come back and update the thread once we know more.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks so much for the update. Keeping my fingers crossed this is something easy to detect and even easier to solve.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I have my own business walking dogs and petsitting. I am very curiously following this thread because some of the dog clients I have were "dog walker rejects". I specifically have on my business cards "no temperament refused" because I have well over 20 years of experience "rehabilitating" or helping rescue dogs, thus I have gads of handling experience of all personalities and issues. 

I am not saying anything in particular about your dog walkers at all, but most dog walkers love dogs and that's it. 10 years of dog walking and loving dogs does not an expert make, but it does make them probably safe and reliable walkers!

Please keep this updated; I am very curious!


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I remember a post last year about how some dogs have a "rage" syndrome where they are the perfect dog, no aggression or fear, but something in their brain would make them randomly act out at anyone, anywhere.

Does anyone else remember this thread? 

I hate to even bring it up as a possibility, especially since this is only one incident, but I have been puzzling over your post.

PS>> Does your dog have any "triggers"? Hats freak my dog out, we had to condition him to them.,


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Well we got all the test results back from the vet and nothing is really standing as a medical concern. I know we could do additional testing, but it has become very clear to me over the last 24 hours that Jake thinks he is the pack leader and we need to address that. I'm in the process of reaching out to a couple of behaviourists in the area.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Suka said:


> I have my own business walking dogs and petsitting. I am very curiously following this thread because some of the dog clients I have were "dog walker rejects". I specifically have on my business cards "no temperament refused" because I have well over 20 years of experience "rehabilitating" or helping rescue dogs, thus I have gads of handling experience of all personalities and issues.
> 
> I am not saying anything in particular about your dog walkers at all, but most dog walkers love dogs and that's it. 10 years of dog walking and loving dogs does not an expert make, but it does make them probably safe and reliable walkers!
> 
> Please keep this updated; I am very curious!


Suka, we have realized that our dog walkers likely fall into the category of loving dogs and not having a lot of experience handling different temperments.

When we met in person to discuss the incident she was not helpful at all. I kept pressing for details about what she was doing at the time, were there other dogs in her vehicle, was there anyone walking by, was there any unusual noises? She made me feel crazy for asking all those questions so I gather she just didn't know how to read the situation or how to handle it. 

We have ended our relationship with this dog walker. After talking to several behaviourists over the past few days I understand now that there had to have been some kind of trigger and Jake's bite was likely preceded with other warnings that they just didn't pick up on.

They were supposed to board Jake next weekend, but I simply don't trust them anymore. If they are tense with Jake around I'm afraid we'd just be asking for more trouble.

As a side note, we got the results to Jake's blood test results back and nothing was out of the ordinary. No medical indication that could explain the sudden aggression. I know we could go further with additional testing, but we've made the decision to consult with a behaviorist to resolve some of the other issues like counter surfing, inconsistent recalls, digging in the front yard, etc.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Izver, I am so glad to hear you are able to consult with a behaviorist. I love you already.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Suka said:


> Izver, I am so glad to hear you are able to consult with a behaviorist. I love you already.


It is the least we can do. We spent the first 6 months he was with us trying to resolve health issues. Now we have some catch up to do on the behavioural side. He's my little man and we will do whatever we need to for him.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

While searching for the behaviorist, be sure they have GSD and working breed experience. Verify with past and current clients regarding results, expectations met, communication. Be sure you are comfortable with them, they will be training you to handle your dog.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

I just wanted to give an update. We had our first session with the dog behaviorist on the weekend. Before the session she had us complete a 12-page questionnaire and we exchanged quite a few emails. The first hour of our session was sitting and discussing Jake’s bite incident and prioritizing the issues we wanted to work on. I am very happy with her so far. Following our session she sent a summary of everything we discussed and covered and she sent lots of supplemental articles and videos we could review.

After much discussion, and since the dog walker is not cooperating with giving details of the incident, we can only assume the incident was a result of over excitement / arousal with possibly some fear or frustration mixed in. The dog walker made that assessment after observing Jake and after our lengthy discussion.

We are only starting with basics right now like teaching a “here” cue which can be used in various situations … getting his attention on walks, outside the house, getting his attention away from something he’s not supposed to go after, etc. We are also been heavily using clicker training and rewarding the good decisions that Jake makes. In less than a week, I can now cook dinner with Jake being in the kitchen and him not constantly jumping on the counter. He gets heavily rewarded for sitting nicely beside me or lying down on the mat in the kitchen. We still have a long way to go, but I’m starting to see some progress.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

You may have the most experienced, kindest dog walker in the world but x0emiroxy0x's point is valid. Who knows what went wrong but it is as likely to have been the dog walker's fault as the dog's. Maybe the dog accidentally got a toe pinched in the crate door. Maybe he refused to enter the crate in his excitement and they struggled. I would apologize profusely, tell the walker for his/her own safety you must cancel their services, and I would forever be watchful of that dog in case he bites again. Give your dog the benefit of the doubt and realize if the walker made a mistake, they can't admit it for fear of being accused of carelessness.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Marnie said:


> You may have the most experienced, kindest dog walker in the world but x0emiroxy0x's point is valid. Who knows what went wrong but it is as likely to have been the dog walker's fault as the dog's. Maybe the dog accidentally got a toe pinched in the crate door. Maybe he refused to enter the crate in his excitement and they struggled. I would apologize profusely, tell the walker for his/her own safety you must cancel their services, and I would forever be watchful of that dog in case he bites again. Give your dog the benefit of the doubt and realize if the walker made a mistake, they can't admit it for fear of being accused of carelessness.


Yes, I am fully aware it could have been something or a combination of things the dog walker did. It could have been a series of things that happened and something she did may have put him over the edge. We are no longer using their services and working to address Jake's stressors.


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