# So who do you blame?



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

We've talked about how the breed is falling apart but who is to blame.

My personal opinion? it's 100% the fault of the *JUDGES*.

Breeders (as a majority) breed for what wins. If judges put up the banana back, egg beater, ski slope, no drive dogs - then that's what breeders will continue to breed.

Breeders and handlers put their dogs under a judge they think will like that type of dog - based on past judging experiences.

If judges stopped putting up the banana back dogs breeders would stop producing them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the breeders will breed dogs to win but they also have a responsibility to breed healthy dogs. The judges can only judge what is in front of them. So...the blame is equal...


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I think partial blame comes to those that do NOT show their dogs that meet the standards but are "working" dogs not "show" dogs. If the judges had the option AND judged according to the standard not the name of the dog, the color of the dog or the dope on two legs at the other end of the dog....... 

While I agree the judging has a large part of the responsibility, the breeders *should* have the responsibilty of putting in their dogs that are the best examples of the breed regardless of color, kennel, line, or handler. The judge can't put up a dog that isn't there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As far as German show lines go, I agree most of the judges are nuts. I'm not sure about Am lines, but many if not most of the SV judges do have their own kennels and breeding programs. I was just reading the bio of a well known judge, stating that their program focused on only breeding dogs with sound nerve and good working ability....yet when I look at what this judge "puts up" at shows....anything but!! Many of the judges are in cahoots with other exhibitors. Pretty much anything you make up can and does happen. It's hilarious and disturbing at the same time. The WDA just suspended a well known breeder for dying dogs and breaking their tails, which was known and possibly encouraged by a judge.

*barfs*

Just look at the Sieger Shows..... Boy von Zorra, great dog in work and really nicely put together. I really really like this dog, from a show standpoint. He got V2 I believe right before the Seiger Show (so second place since this was a show with no VA ratings). Then at the Seiger show he finishes at the bottom of the class, one of the dogs he had recently beat getting a much higher rating. Boy was noted for his bitework performance. Or Javir. Cannot dispute his work and also nice conformation. The crowd went wild for him in Ulm. The judge had given this long speech about improving the work, not going along with ring fads....and who wins? Vegas, again, with Javir at V54 (9 VA dogs above that).

The judges are saying one thing and doing another. That is fact.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anyway, I blame everyone. Judges for being hypocrites so easily bought, breeders for being kennel blind or just plain ignorant, people/exhibitors for not doing their research and falling for whatever the judges and kennels are spewing, the organizations for not being willing to force change..... pretty much everyone but the dogs are to blame.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Ethical breeders breed German shepherds and rarely have winning dogs because they are from a different mold than the trendy dog. "Breeders" bred whatever is in fashion and wins in the ring. Judges should not be in the breeding business especially if they are judging dogs from their own kennels. Money and Greed now dominate which contributes to the decline of this breed.

Dying coats, breaking tails, judges being paid off; I haven't heard of any juiced dogs, but it would not surprise me. How much more abuse can we stand? Are we at the point of no return?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocAre we at the point of no return?


I don't know about this but definitely to the point where if my dog were to place high at one of these shows, I'd probably be repulsed rather than proud!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Alot of it is the judges, but also they can only put up what is shown to them. If we want to change the perception of what a GSD should look like, then the exhibitors need to step up and show "correct" dogs. They need to spend the money to advertise in the show magazines so that the judges will see them and learn to appreciate them both mentally and structurally.

And it won't be easy. It is a tall hill to climb.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: AndakaAlot of it is the judges, but also they can only put up what is shown to them.


But the judges does have the option to without BOB. I know - had it happen to me with my Skye Terrier. It was just us and another Skye and the judge said neither dog was a good enough representative of the breed to be BOB.

I went up to the judge after he was finished in the rang and THANKED him for being so honest. The other Skye owner left in a huff.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Here is what you do -- find a small show in your area. You can check previous entries at a show on many websites of the show superintendents or the AKC site. Get together a group of working line dogs and enter them (but don't spill the beans to others not in the group -- you don't want the AM show line dogs coming). That way you are being judged against other dogs of the same type. And you give the judge a chance to learn about your type of dog.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:But the judges does have the option to without BOB. I know - had it happen to me with my Skye Terrier. It was just us and another Skye and the judge said neither dog was a good enough representative of the breed to be BOB.
> 
> I went up to the judge after he was finished in the rang and THANKED him for being so honest. The other Skye owner left in a huff.


Not after they have given out points to the Winners. The judges have to sign in their judge's book that the Winners Dog and Winners Bitch are worthy of being champions. If he does that, then he has to give out a Best of Breed. There is almost always competition in German Shepherds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Or try a UKC show. I don't feel like sneaking around having to get together a group of dogs like mine just to have a chance. Some UKC judges prefer more "American" dogs and there are American dogs entered, but there are plenty of German and working line champions and GRCH. I like showing Nikon in UKC. Kenya was shown in UKC before I got her and she is pure working lines. It is easier to CH in UKC but I don't want to have to spend thousands of dollars on an AKC CH when that is not my priority, I just want to have fun showing my dogs and have my dog be judged for what he/she is.


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## sunfluer (May 12, 2009)

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>I think dog shows are extremely biased. The last time the GSD won best of show at the WKC was in 1987. The terrier class seems to always take it b/c they're just so darn cute! Not fair which leads me to view dog shows as slanted and highly subjective on personal preferences.

WKC Dog Show Records 

Westminster Dog Show 
</span>


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm going to show mine in UKC probably









I think everyone involved is to blame pretty equally. It's a catch-22.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

I think breeders and judges are to blame


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: 3dogs<span style='font-size: 11pt'>I think dog shows are extremely biased. The last time the GSD won best of show at the WKC was in 1987. The terrier class seems to always take it b/c they're just so darn cute! Not fair which leads me to view dog shows as slanted and highly subjective on personal preferences.
> 
> WKC Dog Show Records
> 
> ...


But if the GSDs entered were not good examples of our breed, would you really *want* them to win?


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Clueless people, be they judges, breeders or buyers all share the blame
along with the kennel _clubs_ that pander to the idiocy.

If folks thought for themselves, researched what they wanted instead of being taken to the bank
and told what they want, they'd soon relieve the morons running the shows of their duties.

But that's just my curmudgeonly old koot opinion...please don't take it personal, anyone.


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## sunfluer (May 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: 3dogs<span style='font-size: 11pt'>I think dog shows are extremely biased. The last time the GSD won best of show at the WKC was in 1987. The terrier class seems to always take it b/c they're just so darn cute! Not fair which leads me to view dog shows as slanted and highly subjective on personal preferences.
> ...


<span style='font-size: 11pt'>No. Absolutely not. If the GSD is below the standard, it wouldn't serve the breed to win. Just looking at the statistics, it makes me wonder. Please don't get me wrong, I love dogs. The smaller breeds are not my fav but they are sweet and cute. Sweet and cute isn't good enough to get best of show.

I don't know... there has been much "bad press" about the GSD being overbred, or thoughtlessly bred. I'm not a breeder. I got my pup, Sirius from a breeder. She has been in the business for years. However, my pup ended up with some medical problems. Sirius has a great temperament; the breeder breeds for service and temperament and these are clearly evident. My pup has had health issus nonetheless.

Perhaps as someone else stated previously, the blame falls on judges and breeders. I still view dog shows as biased, however. And, maybe that's b/c I'm always pulling for my favorite breeds to win.</span>


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## sunfluer (May 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: dOgClueless people, be they judges, breeders or buyers all share the blame
> along with the kennel _clubs_ that pander to the idiocy.
> 
> If folks thought for themselves, researched what they wanted instead of being taken to the bank
> ...


<span style='font-size: 11pt'>I actually like what you have to say here.







Maybe you can slide over and I can become a member of the old koot club also.







Because I must tell you, I've taken quite a bit of heat on this board for my sometimes strong and outspoken opinions. I'm really not so bad once you get to know me though.







</span>


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeAs far as German show lines go, I agree most of the judges are nuts. I'm not sure about Am lines, but many if not most of the SV judges do have their own kennels and breeding programs. I was just reading the bio of a well known judge, stating that their program focused on only breeding dogs with sound nerve and good working ability....yet when I look at what this judge "puts up" at shows....anything but!! Many of the judges are in cahoots with other exhibitors. Pretty much anything you make up can and does happen. It's hilarious and disturbing at the same time. The WDA just suspended a well known breeder for dying dogs and breaking their tails, which was known and possibly encouraged by a judge.


Should judges be allowed to be judges if there are OBVIOUS conflicts of interest?


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

The thread: So who do you blame? - Money & Greed!! old koot club....


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Judges award dogs. Breeders bred dogs that judges will award. What came first, the chicken or the egg. It doesn't matter who gets blamed. So whoever appoints/elects the Judges and those that pay entrance fees to support the shows all contribute. See how long a show will run if no one enters it based on the principal that none of the current dogs tryely represents the GSD.

I had an old AKC judge tell me to enter the UKC shows instead of AKC. Makes one question the validity of the AKC. I guess if you enter every AKC show, spend a lot of money, become friends with a judge, eventually your dog will be a winner. Sad but true.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LiesjeAs far as German show lines go, I agree most of the judges are nuts. I'm not sure about Am lines, but many if not most of the SV judges do have their own kennels and breeding programs. I was just reading the bio of a well known judge, stating that their program focused on only breeding dogs with sound nerve and good working ability....yet when I look at what this judge "puts up" at shows....anything but!! Many of the judges are in cahoots with other exhibitors. Pretty much anything you make up can and does happen. It's hilarious and disturbing at the same time. The WDA just suspended a well known breeder for dying dogs and breaking their tails, which was known and possibly encouraged by a judge.
> ...


I'm not really clear on the rules. I know they cannot judge their own dogs, if that is what you mean.

I don't think they should not be able to breed or show dogs. If that was the rule, who would judge just about anything having to do with dogs? My trainer is a rally judge and she competes in rally with her dog. I can't think of any judges I've competed or shown under that do not own and train their own dogs.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:I guess if you enter every AKC show, spend a lot of money, become friends with a judge, eventually your dog will be a winner. Sad but true.


It's not the only way to win. I'm certainly not rich, I don't enter shows all over the country, but my dogs have done their share of winning. All it takes is a good dog.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

With the Amline dogs, the people involved with them are responsible for the sort of dogs that are being bred and put up. AKC judges have to go through "judges education" for each breed. This is done through the parent club and is presented by breeder-judges of each breed and happens in a variety of ways.

There is usually a group of judges ed people observing at each breed's nationals with ring-side mentors (all of which are involved with breeding and showing that given breed) and often, judges ed seminars as well. There are also often judges to be being ringside mentored ringside at larger all-breed shows and there are some stand alone multi-breed judges eduaction events as well. At the stand alone ones, usually a group of dogs are invited for judges to be to judge. The group of dogs is chosen by the presentor or a contact in that area and are bound to be typical of what is in the ring (and sometimes, what the person picking them likes). At these, judges to be have to explain to the presenter why they placed the dogs the way they did and the presenter will often make comments, good and bad about the dogs as can other breeders there. Sometimes, the presenters (who are always breeder-judges of that breed) will give a biased opinion, placing more meaning on what should be minor faults or including things that should be looked for that are not really part of the standard.

At GSD judges education, you can bet there are not working line or German show line dogs being presented as "different but correct type". The judges to be are being told that movement is just about everything and that the structure of the Amline GSD is ideal and needed for the job they were bred for. At one judges education I was at, judges to be were being told that Collies should be judged 75% on the head and that a dog with an outstanding head but crappy structure should always win over a dog with a so-so head but good structure. And now, years later it is hard to find a show Collie without an extreme head and poor structure. 

Judges to be have to go through judges education and they also have to have a certain amount of ringside mentoring by breeders who show in AKC. It would be extremely hard to change the whole system because it all is based on the opinion of the people involved in showing each breed. Judges can withhold ribbons but those who regularly do don't get good entries and in turn, don't get assignments. To be a group judge, judges have to be approved for all dogs in the group.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Informative post Agile, the thing that galls me is having talked to AKC German Shepherd judges before, it is appaling some of the misconceptions these people have about the breed. (Like the extreme sidegait can herd all day) This type of ignorance should never be allowed to judge a breed show. I can cite you so many biases and unfounded opinions that I have heard from AKC judges about the breed. Very little knowledge of working traits and yet these people pick the highest specimens in the breed for followers of these dogs???? is it any wonder the breed is in the shape it is in on average. Yes, people like Andaka do breed for the total dog, but how can you allow these people to even "judge" your dog??? Oh Well!! What meaning does a title have from an unknowledgable judge?? To me ....none!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Agile, the first AKC puppy match I entered Nikon in had "judges" that were going through the process of becoming judges. The woman who "judged" the GSDs had no idea that there were different lines!!!! I $*** you not, she didn't know. After the breed, she asked us about our dogs (all German show lines at that particular show) and we explained in very general terms the three basic types. She was like "oooooooh, I thought some of these dogs looked different than all the other ones I've been shown!" I know it was only a puppy match and we laughed it off, but honestly this person was becoming a judge and had only ever been shown Am Line dogs.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje The woman who "judged" the GSDs had no idea that there were different lines


The people here that I've talked with who are "into" the AKC GSDs don't know that either. They think any GSD that isn't from AKC Ch lines (my working line boy) is from a BYB. I gave up trying to explain. It just makes me sad.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

At Berlin's first AKC conformation show he took Reserve, and I had a photo taken. The judge asked me then if he was imported from Germany because he was clearly a German dog. Last I checked, German Shepherds have the word "German" in their name, and they originated in Germany. And no, he was born in Wisconsin, so maybe he should wear a big cheese had on his head so the judge knows he is from America.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Clifton - The things you have heard from AKC GSD judges such as the angulation being needed to herd all day, is likely what they were told by AKC GSD breeders. Like I said, it is hard to change the way things are done when it is all so biased towards what the breeders want to see judges putting up. 

Liesje: I can believe it about the match judges. The judges-to-be of the competitive breeds are very unlikely to be shown anything but what wins in the AKC ring in their education. In some breeds, where it is possible to finish dogs of styles, the judges education people usually try to show judges-to-be a variety of dogs so they get a feel for what to expect to see in the ring. Such breeds are usually not nearly as competitive as GSDs though.

Ahlamar: I have talked to multiple people involved with dogs who think the same thing. Someone was talking to me at a show recently about Belgians. They were looking at Belgians and GSDs as something different, after being involved in a breed which has been all just show or pet/BYB bred for a long time (they were mostly into performance though). They said every single dog person they knew told them NOT to get a GSD because their structure is not suitable for performance. I told them that not all GSDs looked that way and that if they weren't interested in AKC conformation, they could certainly find a suitable GSD if that was what they wanted. Their reply was "well yeah, from a BYB but we won't buy from them". I tried to explain the differences but they were skeptical and seemed like they maybe thought I didn't know what I was talking about LOL


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So somebody tell me what qualifies a person to JUDGE german shepherds when they don't thoroughly KNOW german shepherds. Does anybody see the craziness in this ???Whew!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Dunno Cliff that's why I haven't done an AKC event since!! All the orgs and registries have their own problems but I'd rather spend my time and money where the judges and exhibitors at least know other types of dogs exist.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Come on Cliff, surely you can JUDGE yorkies! ROFLMBO. After all, if you've seen one you've seen 100. Pin a badge on your chest and strut around with the yorkies, you are qualified. Oh yeah, you breed, work, and study German shepherds. HHmmmmm, ahhhhh, but you don't have a real German shepherds according to the AKC. hehe


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

Sure, a good dog can sometimes win. But a crappy dog wins a lot. I can't imagine anyone involved in AKC shows would deny that. Have you never walked out with reserve to the worst dog there, but ____ ______ was handling it, so you knew right away you'd be going reserve that day? Every other dog in the ribbons is decent, but Winners is the "face" (handler) dog. It's happened to me plenty of times, and every time I called it before I even walked in the ring. She's going to win because now they're buddies, and the judge is getting into lure coursing and this woman's dog is hideous but she's the president of the lure club" or whatever... it's SO bogus. It's very discouraging to the people who are not names or faces and just have a nice dog.

Then again, the times my little puppy beat adults handled by the biggest names in my breed were certainly sweet! And proof some fair judges do exist.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I too want to know who does judges education.

Who decides they are qualified, and how?

Who decides that extreme angles mean TRAD and TRAD means herding endurance? Especially since the ORIGINAL GSDs didn't have either. It makes no sense to me.

You could apply this to any breed.

Shows are a beauty contest. As I've said before, that's FINE if people would just admit that instead of feeling the desperate need to convince themselves their dogs are the correct or the original.

I know my long necked, equisitely headed, doe-eyed, curvy, drop dead gorgeous Whippet is not the original. He's freaking beautiful, and he can play in the breed ring and kick butt lure coursing. That's fine with me. I like looking at him, and have enjoyed doing so for 12 years. But I'd never say he's better than or even as good as a race bred Whippet in terms of a real, ideal, true Whippet. The only REAL, ideal Whippet in terms of the ORIGINAL breed is the one that wins on the straight track. Period. I don't need to pretend my pretty charicature of Whippet type is a real racing Whippet, or that his structure helps preserve true racing type. Duh. There's a reason show Whippets can't keep up with race bred dogs.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Doc I haven't heard of any juiced dogs, but it would not surprise me.


Slightly OT, but in her book_ Peak Performance, Coaching the Canine Athlete,_ M. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, says that dogs ARE being "juiced." Stimulants (amphetamines and cocaine) and anabolic steroids for athletes, depressants in the conformation ring , thyroid hormones to spruce up appearance, and drugs used to modify the heat cycle so bitches can compete. 

And God knows what else?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

After awhile, it all becomes very depressing. I just do what I can, what I have control over, and let the rest of the world spin out of control.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There are lots of things to blame including human nature. However, when people create a situation where dogs like this win and the people who breed them are rewarded, you have to ask yourself WHY you would participate in it, even if you have a "good dog". What are you proving? IMO, nothing. You think when they see your dogs they are going to run out and get one? You think all the positive traits your dog is showing is even recognized by the people watching? You think your dog will be judged fairly? HA HA HA and HA, that's all I have to say about that.

My experience has been the dogs are criticized for their positive GSD qualities. I entered my male Pedro in a show and breed survey. He was a 63.5 cm , substantial, masculine male who moved better and more effortless than any of the dogs in his class. He was second to last and was behind a male that could have doubled as a Shetland Pony. When the judge got to Pedro, he criticized his lack of secondary sex characteristics. LOL. Well yeah, when you are comparing a GSD to what now look like Mastiffs I guess you could say that. So, I took my feminine little G rated dog and went home with a rather bad taste in my mouth. Not that I was expecting to feel differently but I was not exactly expecting THAT comment. Here is my bitchy little male Pedro: 










I have my own eyes and these people stand there and say stuff about all the dogs that just leaves you wondering what they smoked that morning that is making them see things you are not seeing, no matter HOW hard you look. It is insulting.

I also entered in a show and breed survey with one of those "working dog friendly" judges. Yes, one of my females went KKL 1 , however, somehow this working type guy managed to miss the fact that almost none of the show lines dogs were hit with the stick in the protection portion of the BS...(Breed survey, although you could consider it just plain old BS also). Somehow, that accomplishment just isn't as gratifying when the event is only run half right. 
It is absolutely worse when you see this crap in person. I can't say I have ever felt really good after leaving one of those events . I will not be subjecting myself to that situation again. If I do anything with showing or breed surveys it will be an event that my club, or a working dog club hosts. Where the dogs are tested in protection and the judge is someone as ethical as I can find, although I realize that won't be easy.
I won't be a part of these other charades where these unethical, color blind "judges" are presiding because doing so, makes me part of the problem.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I agree. Maybe all us folks with "pitiful" German shepherds should have a show of our own. Something like Doggin with the Oldies. You know, those "old fashion" German shepherds that have no other place to go now.









Beautiful dog Vandal - even if he can't win any ribbons - LOL


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal when people create a situation where dogs like this win and the people who breed them are rewarded, you have to ask yourself WHY you would participate in it, even if you have a "good dog". What are you proving? IMO, nothing. You think when they see your dogs they are going to run out and get one? You think all the positive traits your dog is showing is even recognized by the people watching? You think your dog will be judged fairly? HA HA HA and HA, that's all I have to say about that.


Anne you just had to go and burst my bubble, didn't you??!








Over the past few years I have made a point of showing "working dogs" in the AKC ring.
But I think you are right, I am not changing anybody's mind. 
I even had someone comment about one of my dogs that if I chose to breed, I'd better pick a mate with a "bitchy" head because my dog's head was too big (typical DDR linebred on Held Ritterberg). And why do I want a Collie head??
So maybe the showline people on both sides have an issue with heads?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Years ago, I went to a breed survey with my male Vandal. This was when things seemed to be right side up and the dogs were really judged according to the standard and you could reconcile what the judge was saying with what your eyes were seeing.

The judge took the time to explain to everyone why Vandal got a V rating vs the SG that was given to another male in attendance. It had to do with the rear movement of both dogs. He explained to those watching while we moved the dogs away from the group. The other male was very loose in the rear, very angulated and cow hocked, (sound familiar?), and he explained why that was not correct. Everyone saw clearly what he was talking about and his words matched what we all saw with our own eyes.

It is almost 30 years later and what we saw in the other dog is now rewarded with V and VA ratings. I can look all day at that movement and cannot match the words coming out of the judge's mouths with what my eyes are seeing. 

I think Vandal might have a G rating in today's show ring, that's how upside down things are now and is why I scoff when anyone talks about improving the breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anne, I love his head,,,it looks strong, noble and majestic....are they secondary traits.....Nice dog!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal I think Vandal might have a G rating in today's show ring, that's how upside down things are now and is why I scoff when anyone talks about improving the breed.


 The whole idea that breeders should be "improving" breeds is a bit off. While breeders should aim to improve their own dogs through breeding, the breed itself should be preserved. That is really whole point of having purebred dogs - preserving traits that make them what they are. If breeders are constantly "improving" a breed, then there is constant changes along with the traits that made the breed what it is. Working bred Border Collies are a good example of breeders working to preserve a breed. These dogs don't have to be titled and they don't have to look like anything specific - their worthiness for breeding is proven by the work they do. Yet they all look like Border Collies have always looked (there is a great deal of color, coat and ear differences in the breed but seldom can you not identify one as a BC) and work like Border Collies have always worked. No improvement is needed - the breed is ideally suited for the job it was created for. I suspect the same can be said for GSDs - they never needed to be improved on and were ideally suited for what they were bred to do. I still think that many working bred ones are but many of the rest have been improved to a point where they are no longer useful for the original purpose. But hey they have floaty movement that the original dogs didn't...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Agile, you are preaching to the choir, now if we can get some of these improvers to look in the mirror and realize that this is the case!!!!!!!!!


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