# Feminine and Masculine



## paulag1955

I know that it's also included in the breed standard that every animal should give "a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex" and secondary sex characteristics should be "strongly marked." Can anyone explain what exactly it is about a dog that makes it look feminine or masculine to them? Also, what are the secondary sex characteristics. They all look gender-neutral to me. Pix might be helpful, if you have any that might be illustrative.

Thanks!


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## Freestep

To me, it's all about the head. IMO a male dog should have a big, wide head, while a bitch head is more refined. I am sure someone will post photos that show you the difference.

It seems the head is the last thing that develops as far as secondary sex characteristics--it takes about 3 years for a dog's head to develop its full masculinity. Dogs that are neutered young tend to have bitchy-looking heads.


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## Draugr

What Freestep said I think is what they are referring to, primarily. Males are supposed to have pretty strong and marked musculature also, without testosterone that is difficult to develop, that goes along with the "bitchy-looking" heads that he mentioned.

I think wider, broader chests are a factor too. Narrow chest cavities are more common when they are done young.

I don't know of any dog pics that are a really good illustration of this, but if you do a google image search for "geldings" and "stallions" you can see a big difference there. But that is a much larger animal, too. I presume something similar goes on with most mammals?


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## Samba




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## sagelfn

My male Sage 2yrs old (neutered about 10months of age - also not from a reputable breeder) 

He lacks secondary sex characteristics

























Compare him to Missy's DDR boy Akbar http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/165431-new-akbar-pictures.html
And if you go back and look at her posts, even as a young pup Akbar had strong secondary sex characteristics


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## paulag1955

What _are_ the secondary sex characteristics?


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## onyx'girl

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/129037-secondary-sex-characteristics.html
http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm
Some people are breeding solely for the big blocky head...that should not be a reason! 
I think the male should look like a male, 
but to quote the Captain ~
'Exaggeration is bad in all circumstances' 

Kacie, my female has a larger masculine head...as a long coat, its hard to tell she is female.
Karlo has a nice male head, but it isn't blocky whatsoever. I think he is balanced. Onyx is as large as Karlo, but she has a feminine head:Onyx in the back, Karlo in the middle:









** Oversized photo removed by Admin. Please resize to no more than 800X600 as per rule #15 and repost. ***


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## Draugr

paulag1955 said:


> What _are_ the secondary sex characteristics?


It's anything that distinguishes males from females that is not the, erm...the stuff between their legs.

It's fairly vague criteria, and not always very obvious if you aren't around tons of dogs in your day-to-day job I imagine (it's not always obvious to me). Stuff like musculature, head shape, maybe the size of the chest cavity (not sure on that one though). As far as how you'd specifically define that, as a sort of standard...that much is lost on me =/.


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## paulag1955

Plus, that first picture of Sage is so cute, I just want to hug him!!

I can see differences between Sage and Akbar, but I guess I've been thinking they're just random differences between individuals, not indicative of gender at all.


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## stacey_eight

What would you consider the earliest age to neuter and still develop secondary sex characteristics?


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## Samba

Secondary sex characteristics is kinda vague. They are usually things that are hormonally influenced... in people, breasts and facial hair.

In the dogs, the males have a much more developed musculature. A slabby male with little muscle would be lacking in secondary sex characteristic.


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## sagelfn

To be fair Akbar is from DDR lines and I've never seen a DDR dog not look like a brick house with a blocky head. Sage is a mix of lines so I am not going to blame it all on early neuter.

Samba- what is "slabby" ?


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## Draugr

stacey_eight said:


> What would you consider the earliest age to neuter and still develop secondary sex characteristics?


Probably not until they finish developing them around two to three years of age. And even then with the males you'd want them active in some kind of sport, like agility or schutzhund, in order to keep the muscle (if that is indeed considered a secondary sex characteristic). Muscle tone is difficult to maintain once you lose the testosterone, and even more difficult to build. Maybe there is HRT for dogs? XD. Hehe.

My uncle's dog is pretty active and had VERY strong musculature at about 15 months of age, but has lost a lot of that since he was neutered at that time. He still gets a lot of exercise but it's not enough. Some of that is overfeeding, though. I'm not sure how he would look if he dropped the few extra lbs he has on him.

A good portion of that is probably genetics, though. That dog I was talking about there has a very masculine head I think, and had that even from an early age. He is from West German lines.


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## Samba

There are hormone receptors in the muscles. Once the hormonal flow is gone, the muscle reduces some in both males and females. I notice it first in the head muscles. My vet was careful to explain this to me prior to spaying my female. He knows I notice "looks".


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## paulag1955

I am, apparently, completely oblivious. Or possibly obtuse. I looked through the thread Jane linked and I guessed right every single time...every time that the males and females were clearly labeled, that is. I think I'm getting confused because the masculine characteristics you're describing sound like Shasta and she looks like a girl to me (ah, a mother's love is blind).


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## Cassidy's Mom

What about these two, Paula?










I think it's really obvious, but maybe that's because I already KNOW! But we had them out together at the brew pub once, and someone at the next table looked over at them and said "that's the boy (pointing at Keefer) and that's the girl (pointing at Dena)". She was right, and prior to that we hadn't talked to them at all, so the woman wouldn't have had any way of knowing that they were not both males or both females.


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## GSDElsa

Very manly looking man:
5JVQ1/P VD Mambo z Pohranicni straze - German Shepherd Dog

Girly looking girl:
Coletta Aritar Bastet - German Shepherd Dog

I think it's a bit like looking at men and women...certain characteristics make someone more "attractive"...


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## Samba

Slabby is a thin body, the chest is not well-sprung.


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## gsdraven

Debbie, Keefer is on the left? Dena right?


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## Samba

feminine bitch head


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## GSDElsa

Most some recent pics of Shasta in this thread...I don't really recall thinking she looked masculine form pics I can remember


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## Samba

Slabby body type, collie-like un-masculine head


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## SitUbuSit

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What about these two, Paula?


I think this is a really good example. They might look the same from afar, but once you're close enough to see their features, it becomes very obvious which dog is male vs. female.

Your Dena was a beauty! I love her serious, feminine expression here.


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## BR870

Samba said:


> Slabby body type, collie-like un-masculine head


Really? Maybe its just me, but that head is distinctly masculine looking to me...


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## Chicagocanine

I think Bianca is less feminine looking compared to other females? Everyone mistakes her for a boy (or a male puppy, due to her big ears!)


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## paulag1955

Debbie, I saw that photo on the thread that Jane linked, so I know that Dena is on the right. Right?

Here's a recent photo of Shasta's pretty face.












And here's one that shows her sturdy build:









And here's one that shows her fat butt:









She's just a big, sturdy girl. I do think she looks more refined than her sister, though, who the breeder kept back.


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## paulag1955

I think Bianca looks like a beautiful girl, but what do I know!


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## SitUbuSit

Chicagocanine said:


> I think Bianca is less feminine looking compared to other females?


I guessed she was a girl even before reading your post -- there's a distinct feminine quality about her face. She's proof that hunkettes can rock those big ears too! 

I'm no expert, but I DO look at pictures of GSDs all day... Not sure what that makes me (other than obsessed).


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## Freestep

paulag1955 said:


> Here's a recent photo of Shasta's pretty face.


She has a very strong head for a female--I would have guessed her as a male--but part of that may be due to the long hair making the head look bigger and wider than it actually is. Lovely, lovely face! Personally I prefer a strong head in both males and females. Some bloodlines tend toward narrow, collie-like heads and while that may be seen as "elegant" and "refined" to some, it's not my cup of tea.


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## paulag1955

Freestep said:


> She has a very strong head for a female-


You are right, her head is big and wide. The long hair adds a bit to the bulky look, but not really that much. Of course it doesn't matter, we love her just as she is, but you can see how I was confused about the masculine/feminine thing.


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## Samba

BR870 said:


> Really? Maybe its just me, but that head is distinctly masculine looking to me...


Well, okay, it is more masculine than I said. But, not desirable.


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## PaddyD

BR870 said:


> Really? Maybe its just me, but that head is distinctly masculine looking to me...


I agree. Here is Abby's girlie looking head.


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## SunCzarina

When Morgan's out alone, she's often been mistaken for a boy. Probably because she's a shepherd. With Otto or Luther, only for a second until the person gets a good look them. 

As far as the characteristics, it's more than just the head. It's the build, how the dog carries him/herself. 

A female should be strong but feminine without coarseness - not mannish. Ever go to the gym and see what you think is a short dude working out, huge V-cut on the back. Then she turns around?


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## onyx'girl

Haha, what about the vocalizations? My three dogs all have pretty deep barks.
I hate to hear higher pitched barks(not due to the prey vs defense) but a bark in general. I am always impressed with a deeper bark, and I love tight feet too!


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## paulag1955

Oh, wow, Shasta has had a big-girl bark since she was tiny. It's absolutely head-splitting in our Ford Focus.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I have noticed that the female's snout is different than the males, I think it's pointier (more narrow).









Here is a pic of my male, notice the width of his snout.


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## Samba

Yes, a more narrow muzzle in the females.


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## zyppi

Dogs are wet, and Jack more so than Sofie - but perhaps you can see Sofie, in the foreground is dainty compared to Jack. She also weighs about 20lbs less than he does and neither has any fat on them. Heavier bone, bigger feet etc... Jack is still intact and I think, at least if they're left intact for two years, that they really develop those male characteristics.


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## Cassidy's Mom

gsdraven said:


> Debbie, Keefer is on the left? Dena right?


:thumbup:

Darn, I didn't look at Jane's link so I didn't realized I'd already posted them, Paula. Funny that I picked the exact same picture, lol!


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## paulag1955

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Darn, I didn't look at Jane's link so I didn't realized I'd already posted them, Paula. Funny that I picked the exact same picture, lol!


Well, hey, if the picture makes your point...it makes your point, dang it! And I can see the difference between them.


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## Cassidy's Mom

SitUbuSit said:


> Your Dena was a beauty! I love her serious, feminine expression here.


Thanks! She really was gorgeous. :wub: She had a strong head for a female, but it was very feminine looking too, she had such a sweet expression. 

Keefer's head is bigger, his muzzle is thicker, and his body is broader than hers was, even at a fairly young age.


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## WarrantsWifey

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What about these two, Paula?



Male on Left, Bitch on Right??


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## Cassidy's Mom

onyx'girl said:


> Haha, what about the vocalizations? My three dogs all have pretty deep barks.
> I hate to hear higher pitched barks(not due to the prey vs defense) but a bark in general. I am always impressed with a deeper bark, and I love tight feet too!


High pitched prey bark? Yep, that would be Keefer....  Halo has always had a deep, serious "big girl" bark. Her super excited bark (being held back for a restrained recall, waiting to be released to search in scent class) sounds almost exactly like a chimpanzee, lol! But her real bark is, well REAL!!!


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## cta

i find this thread to be very interesting. we have always thought chobahn's head doesn't look masculine...i'm wondering if it's because he was neutered so young or it's just his genetics..or maybe at a year and a half he still has growing to do? sometimes he looks more masculine than other times...it's weird. he has a very deep manly bark tho!


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## Catu

Guess who is the female and who is the male...


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## msvette2u

What a pretty sable BOY


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## onyx'girl

Wow, Catu! Akela is looking nice :wub:


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## trudy

here are my 2 brother and sister but a year apart. And yes she does have a much better ear set than shown. Its hard to get good pics sometimes and sorry aboiut the messy house:


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## trudy

Strong and feminine without signs of weakness


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## trudy




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## Josie/Zeus

Here's a great example, just look at Gavin's head next to Cadence. 
V Alta-Tollhaus Cadence SchH 1 KKL1a | Long-Dangerous Tails


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## lhczth

When I look at a dog, especially a male, I don't want to have to check out the plumbing to know what sex it is. A mature male will have a very masculine look. They are usually thicker through the neck and shoulders, broader head, more bone, etc. 

There is no question this is a male at 2.5 (and he is not yet fully mature).








Even at 16 months









His sister and 1/2 sister (on left):









And his sister at 16 months.









Unfortunately when a male is neutered young, especially, they will lose the hormones that make them look like males. 

I also like good heads on females, but when put next to a male, they should still look like a girl.


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## SunCzarina

Otto would like to disspell the myth about neutering young giving them bitch heads. He was done at 1 y/o so I could get his papers and try to stop those icky boy things he was doing. He's still an icky boy but I have his papers...

If a dog has heavy bone, neutering them younger isn't going to change that.



















Big Head:









Bitchy Head:


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## trudy

Also i do like to say age makes males more impressive, Ty turned 3 in April adn has noticably gotten fuller through the chest, broader and wider, I thought he was masculine before but now even more so..Maybe that is where the early neutering will make a difference, that later maturing and filling out may not happen


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## robinhuerta

Here are a couple of my examples of feminine vs masculine....








Ando...10 mos old.

*first try at pics...did it work?*...nope, didn't work....anyone have some advice?
I have them loaded to photobucket.


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## SunCzarina

robinhuerta said:


> *first try at pics...did it work?*...nope, didn't work....anyone have some advice?
> I have them loaded to photobucket.


right click on the picture and find 'Copy link location'

type 
press control + c (this will paste in the link)
type 

done. there should be no spaces between the opening image tag 
the actual image hyperlink http:\photobucket\whatever.jpg
and the close tag


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## robinhuerta

** I feel badly having to remove these, but the photos are over sized and need to be resized so they are no larger than 800X600. Maybe someone can tell Robin how to do this with her host site. Admin***

I did it!!! YIPPEE!!! now if I can only remember HOW I did it?!

Ok.....Masculine head/10mos old male. (Ando).

** oversized photo removed by Admin**

This is Quando.....Masculine head/ 2yr old male.


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## Danielle609

Ando is beautiful :wub: I mean um....*handsome*


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## SunCzarina

Danielle609 said:


> Ando is beautiful :wub: I mean um....*handsome*


LOL 

Like I often say to Otto who got all big and handsome!


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## robinhuerta

** oversized photo removed by Admin**

This Feminine (strong)....3yr old co-owned female Isabella.
** Photo removed by Admin**

This is Feminine (strong)...6mo female.









This is Feminine (strong)....12mo female.


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## LaRen616

robinhuerta said:


> Oversized photo removed by Admin**


She is GORGEOUS! :wub:

I hope Malice looks like her when she grows up!


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## robinhuerta

Ok...last one. Trying to re-size photos.....is this better?
Sorry for the HUGE pics....I just learned how to post them.










Feminine (strong)...puppy female at 8 weeks old......_my Izzy._


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## msvette2u

I agree completely. We have some very "boy" looking boys that were neutered young and some "finer boned" or girly-looking boys that were neutered late. 
I think genetics plays as big of role in muscle and bone development as hormones, perhaps even more. 
I've seen intact males look just like girls, or at least not obviously males, despite their ages. 



SunCzarina said:


> Otto would like to disspell the myth about neutering young giving them bitch heads. He was done at 1 y/o so I could get his papers and try to stop those icky boy things he was doing. He's still an icky boy but I have his papers...
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## Freestep

SunCzarina said:


> If a dog has heavy bone, neutering them younger isn't going to change that.


This is true--if the genetics code for heavy bone and a wide head, that's what you're going to get, regardless of if or when you neuter. For example, a Greyhound is never going to get a wide, blocky head no matter how much testosterone is coursing through his veins, and a Mastiff is going to have a big head even if neutered at 8 weeks of age.


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## paulag1955

It's going to be interesting to see how Shasta compares to her brother. Hopefully she'll at least look all girly next to him!


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## robinhuerta

@ Lauren......
Here is the pedigree from our Isabella. (solid black female in earlier pic).
I found her litter brother (on the PDB)...so I'm using him for reference. We don't have Isabella listed on the PDB....I'll probably do it in a couple of days when I have more time.
Good difference between the sexes within the pedigree. (IMO)
She is an AMAZING female! HARD, civil, prey...you name it....she has it.

SG Ivan von der Hettlingshöhe - German Shepherd Dog


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## LaRen616

robinhuerta said:


> @ Lauren......
> Here is the pedigree from our Isabella. (solid black female in earlier pic).
> I found her litter brother (on the PDB)...so I'm using him for reference. We don't have Isabella listed on the PDB....I'll probably do it in a couple of days when I have more time.
> Good difference between the sexes within the pedigree.
> 
> SG Ivan von der Hettlingshöhe - German Shepherd Dog


They are both stunning! :wub: :wub:


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## elisabeth_00117

I think Stark has EXCELLENT secondary sex characteristics. :wub:



















Now, Stark's half sister Zefra (same sire) has more masculine features for females. I think their sire throws the more heavy bone/masculine into his progeny. To me, I like a heavier featured female, so this is perfection to me personally.

Zefra (4-4.5 months)


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## lhczth

Robin, the last photo you posted was great. Sorry I had to remove the others. Please resize and post them again.

ADMIN Lisa


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## Minnieski

IDK, I think that Zephra has a nice head but she still looks feminine to me. HUGE ears, though! LOL!


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## elisabeth_00117

Minnieski said:


> IDK, I think that Zephra has a nice head but she still looks feminine to me. HUGE ears, though! LOL!


She does still look like a girl, but isn't as feminine as some females out there. She is very heavy boned (maybe hard to tell from the photo's I used) and has a broader head than some. Next to Stark, she definitely looks like a girl.

Like Lisa, I like a nice head on my females.


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## Andaka




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## Catu

onyx'girl said:


> Wow, Catu! Akela is looking nice :wub:


Thanks! He was only 5 months old on that picture, now he looks less round and more square, but still has a baby face.









Diabla also has afeminine, yet strong head, I alway call her "square head" in honor to a local cartoon.


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## Vandal

Masculine: Brother Ikon









Feminine: Sister, Indis


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## robinhuerta

Here is a couple of a 10 wk old male sable puppy......*talk about a blocky head piece! LOL*...and a Black & Red female puppy at 10 wks old....*pretty blocky & strong for a girl!*


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## Whiteshepherds

robinhuerta said:


>


Seriously Robin, give this puppy a cigar and he'd look like a bouncer I use to know.


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## GSDElsa

paulag1955 said:


> It's going to be interesting to see how Shasta compares to her brother. Hopefully she'll at least look all girly next to him!


lol...she does look like she has a boy head  But I'd much rather have a manly looking girl than a girly lookin' boy!


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## Konotashi

Here are two dogs from a breeder I really hope to get a puppy from one day. I think their dogs are perfect examples of masculinity/femininity. (Not my dogs! Though I wish they were...).

Jaeger vom Haus Munsinger Dunn









Leina vom Haus Munsinger Dunn


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## WarrantsWifey

I think this one is pretty clear! LOL! Can you decide which is male, which is female?!


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## _Crystal_

WarrantsWifey said:


> I think this one is pretty clear! LOL! Can you decide which is male, which is female?!


female left, Male right?


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## paulag1955

I saw some people out walking their GDS yesterday and the first thought that popped into my head, I swear, was..."wow, he's got a bitchy looking head."


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## Ramage

I have some pics for you all.

1st example is Tori. She is a very masculine bitch - in fact, most people assume she is a male. Her head is the main reason, but she also "acts" like a male (not sure how to explain that).

















My 2nd example if Pyka. She is opposite of Tori in almost every possible way. She is a very feminine bitch. Even though she is young, at 11 months, she is going to stay feminine even at maturity.

















and my 3rd example if Ayla. To me, she is very neutral. She's not overly feminine and not overly masculine.

















Three very different bitches.


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## WarrantsWifey

_Crystal_ said:


> female left, Male right?



Yep, it's nearly painfully obviously in this one.... You can see it in the head. He has HARD secondary sex features.


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## paulag1955

Ramage, those are great pix, thanks! Now personally, I think my Shasta looks more feminine than Tori but maybe slightly more masculine than Ayla.


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## horsegirl

see the difference?


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## CeCe

My dogs seem to have strong sex characteristics.


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## PaddyD

Abby is a feminine German Shepherd Dog.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-picture11091-squirrel-squirrel-squirrel.jpg


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Lucky has never been taken for a girl but does not have blocky head.Daisy when she is w/ him is never thought to be male but alone and younger she was often called a boy. her features are more fine then Lucky's. Not compared to other female GSD's. Dont meet any other breed standard but their secondary sex characteristics seem fairly strong.This was taken this summer as Daisy ages she appears more feminine.


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## PaddyD

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Lucky has never been taken for a girl but does not have blocky head.Daisy when she is w/ him is never thought to be male but alone and younger she was often called a boy. her features are more fine then Lucky's. Not compared to other female GSD's. Dont meet any other breed standard but their secondary sex characteristics seem fairly strong.This was taken this summer as Daisy ages she appears more feminine.


Daisy is the one on the right?


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## selzer

I think Dubya was a masculine dog:

About a year old:


















Joy is more feminine than Bear:









Sporting her bitch stripe:









Her younger sister Bear is more doggy, at least in the face:


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

PaddyD said:


> Daisy is the one on the right?


Yes she is on the right, The girlie kercheif w/standing and if you know the age the grey could clue you in. I do think Lucky appears masculine and Daisy in comparsion looks feminine.


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## phgsd

Here is Madina, to me she is very masculine. She is built like a tank, very strong boned...


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## wolfstraum

Strong, but feminine head










Masculine - Cito











and both together at about 4 months old....


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## BlackGSD

phgsd said:


> Here is Madina, to me she is very masculine. She is built like a tank, very strong boned...


To me, her head SCREAMS female.


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## BlackthornGSD

I agree--I think Madina looks very feminine.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I agree, Madina's face is very feminine.


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## BlackthornGSD

Coal has pretty strong secondary sex characteristics--big shoulders, broad chest, a thick ruff, as well as a masculine head:










Jubilee is his full sister:


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## marshies

I love the strong headed females on the thread!! 
I think for the blockier females, it's easier to tell the difference on the sables than on the red/blacks...for some strange reason. 
Gorgeous dogs everyone!!!


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## Mrs.K

Nala is a very feminine and petite female.


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## Debbieg

I think Benny is very masculine looking


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## windwalker718

Over the years I've always preferred "doggie" bitches, Or bitches with very strong heads. I fell madly in love with Lee's Csabre when she was just 10 weeks old. It seems that those strong "doggie" bitches are the ones who throw the best male heads in their progeny... Ikon is a much stronger head than his Daddy, and it seems to come thru the female. (His grandsires are UFO and Xito, so strong males on both sides) (can't publish a pic of him from this computer as it's a new one and all my files are on the other one)


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## Ronda

I think she looks like a girlie but I get a lot of "Wow, that's a nice looking male!" comments. Course I also get a lot of "Wow that's cool, a lab who's ears stand! or lately... "Wow, she's part wolf right?" 











Ronda
Ohen z AlpineK9


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## Emoore

I think that Kopper is extremely masculine looking for only 11 months.


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