# Michael Ellis, Training Protection Sports without a Decoy Video



## pfitzpa1

Has anyone seen/used the methods Michael describes in this video. It looks very interesting and I am considering doing this with my dog. We ( as in me and my dog) tried the directed search last week at our club, it was a mess, my dog didn't have a clue what to do, which I suppose is normal as she has not been taught how to do it. Some dogs seem to pick it up naturally the first time but Maggie was unsure what to do and was constantly looking to me for direction, which I could not give much of as I have neither of us have trained the search.


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## Ace952

I have the video but I haven't even watched it.


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## BritneyP

what do you mean by, "directed search"? 

What have you done with your dog already to train this particular exercise?


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## pfitzpa1

BritneyP said:


> what do you mean by, "directed search"?
> 
> What have you done with your dog already to train this particular exercise?


Sending the dog out to and around a specific blind and recalling her to me for the next send out to a different blind.

>>What have you done with your dog already to train this particular exercise?
Practically nothing, she can do a send out and platz in a straight line.
Some of the dogs in the club picked up on the search naturally with no specific training, but my dog was lost.

Michael Ellis's video shows how to teach the search with no decoy help needed. It breaks it down into multiple steps and emphasizes the need for a clean bark & hold as the base. I was wondering if anyone had followed his method and how successful it was.


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## Liesje

I don't use Michael Ellis vids but I do work on this outside of protection. I don't pair it with a hold and bark, I just teach my dogs to run around whatever obstacle I have available (usually a stool or camp chair). For me it also has applications for agility. Being able to direct a dog to various obstacles and handle the dog at a distance is key in agility. Some people train this by putting a toy in the blind but in my world all rewards come from me so the dog must go around and return to me. The default behavior is that they go around the obstacle, return to me, and platz in front of me. If we're doing more than one obstacle I give them the direction and command as they are coming back so it is smooth.


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## onyx'girl

I think the blind searches should be trained as an obedience exercise and not on the field with a helper in the blind. I made the mistake of training it w/ helper-hot blind type searches, and my dog will still blow off the blind to get to the helper. Unfortunately I don't have a training field at my disposal to have him run blinds except when we train at club, so we are getting there, but it is slow. 
Trees, chairs, whatever are not the same to my dog as the blinds w/ helper present. So we are always making him go round to get a bite, and he has to defer to my direction before he is rewarded. 
Had I taught this as obedience(instead of protection)early on our outcome would definitely be different, I'm sure.
As far as the hold and bark, that should be taught first with no blinds so doesn't really go together for several sessions. You need the strong confident rhythm barking before adding the blind into the picture.
What does your trainer at club do to help you with this? bowwowflix has ME dvds to rent, so you don't need to inve$t in purchasing it.


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## lhczth

I have never seen Ellis' video though the title makes me shake my head......

Anyhow, I teach the blind search initially with the helper going from 5-6. Once my dog understands this I teach the rest of the blinds with a ball. Once the dog understands all 6 blinds I bring a helper back into the picture, the dog thinks he is in the blind (he actually isn't until the dog is heading for blind 5) so then it goes from being just an OB exercise for the ball to a much more intense search for the helper. I also do the shell game so the dog never knows for sure if a helper is in one of the other blinds. I have seen a number of people teach the blind search with the ball. I have found it goes more quickly starting it on the helper.

Another thing we do is put 3-4 blinds in a triangle or square and work on the dog paying attention to the directions of the handler despite knowing there is a helper in one of the blinds. The blinds are close together, it is easier to avoid the dog making a mistake and you don't run the dog into the ground trying to get it right.


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## Liesje

Pan started with a helper and then went to the ball (mainly because the blind search for a dog that doesn't even have a BH yet isn't real critical, and using a ball is something I can do at home without blinds or helpers). First I sent him to the blind and the helper ran out and did like a mini-escape. Then the helper moved farther and farther out of the blind, but Pan had to go around the blind to get to him rather than cut straight to the helper (so it was like a triangle of me/dog, blind, helper). So, it was a bit different then sending the dog around one unmanned blind to get to another hot blind but it worked and the dog definitely understood to *go around* the blind since he could clearly see the helper. We did this two times just for fun (he wasn't old enough to do any other serious protection work) and then I switched to doing it on my own with a toy. I think having the helper there first built in the drive to the blind. I don't know if he still thinks there might be a helper in the picture or not, but he's definitely eager to go *toward* the blind, not just go around and get back to me for the toy.

Nikon learned with a toy at home. I had three real blinds setup in a triangle and would totally randomize where I sent him. With him on the field I realized I need to be careful about what I say. "Yes" is his marker word and when I was working on doing 4-6 blinds on the trial sized field, I would inadvertently say "yes!" when he committed to the correct blind and then he'd stop and look at me. I have to remind myself not to say anything or only mark after he's already gone around the blind or I interrupt him. Maybe with a helper(s) in the picture that won't happen (he'll have more desire to keep running and not as much interest in what I'm doing/saying) but we haven't done blinds with helper(s) since quite a while before his Schutzhund trial.


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## pfitzpa1

lhczth said:


> I have never seen Ellis' video though the title makes me shake my head......


He is very clear in his video at what point to stop training a routine and switch to a decoy. As others have mentioned, the search, Bark & Hold are obedience exercises and I like Michael Ellis's approach to training this.


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## pfitzpa1

Liesje said:


> I don't pair it with a hold and bark,
> ...
> 
> Some people train this by putting a toy in the blind but in my world all rewards come from me so the dog must go around and return to me.


He doesn't pair it per se, but he does emphasize that a solid bark and hold is necessary before training the search.

He does put a tug toy in the blind (at the far apex), the dog is with the handler when the handler drops the toy the corner of the blind, then the handler/dog move back around the blind and the handler gives the command to search. When the dog reaches the apex/toy, the handler calls the dog to him with hier.
He only does this for a few short sessions as a way of introducing the concept of running around the blind.
The reward is the tug game with the handler when the dog reaches him.

It seems like a good method.


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## lhczth

The blind search is an obedience exercise. The bark and hold is not. 

Lies, that is how I did my first dogs. Deja I actually taught her to go around the blind with the helper behind me. I stood at the corner of the blind and she went around to the helper who was about 30' from the blind. Then I moved farther and farther from the blind until she was doing the blind from mid field. During this process the helper had actually moved farther away and then went into blind 6. Deja already had a H&B. This actually worked really quickly with her.


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## pfitzpa1

onyx'girl said:


> What does your trainer at club do to help you with this? bowwowflix has ME dvds to rent, so you don't need to inve$t in purchasing it.


I just passed BH/AD 2 weeks ago so I had been avoiding any IPO bitework (other than puppy bite work) until we passed. We only meet once a week and unfortunately we have a lot of dogs and not so many helpers, so it is hard to get "basic learning" time on Saturdays. It seem more like Saturdays are for polishing techniques. The senior trainer offered to help me during the week which I am going to do, but I was mainly looking for something I can do at home a little every day to build up the foundation.

I had forgotten about bowwow, thanks, I'll check it out.


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## pfitzpa1

lhczth said:


> The blind search is an obedience exercise. The bark and hold is not.


Interesting, though I'm not sure what the exact distinction between obedience and non obedience exercises are, Michael Ellis trains it like an obedience exercise.


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## BritneyP

lhczth said:


> I have never seen Ellis' video though the title makes me shake my head......
> 
> Anyhow, I teach the blind search initially with the helper going from 5-6. Once my dog understands this I teach the rest of the blinds with a ball. Once the dog understands all 6 blinds I bring a helper back into the picture, the dog thinks he is in the blind (he actually isn't until the dog is heading for blind 5) so then it goes from being just an OB exercise for the ball to a much more intense search for the helper. I also do the shell game so the dog never knows for sure if a helper is in one of the other blinds. I have seen a number of people teach the blind search with the ball. I have found it goes more quickly starting it on the helper.
> 
> Another thing we do is put 3-4 blinds in a triangle or square and work on the dog paying attention to the directions of the handler despite knowing there is a helper in one of the blinds. The blinds are close together, it is easier to avoid the dog making a mistake and you don't run the dog into the ground trying to get it right.


This is, verbatum, how I train blinds as well.. 

Depending on the dog, I have in some cases introduced the concept of running around them separate from the helper, but it's not my first choice. I also would never make sure my dog had a "solid bark and hold" as a base, because that would assume they need to be barking and holding on me. I don't like my dogs to view protection exercises as a fun game, though I know many people train that way successfully.


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## 4TheDawgies

lhczth said:


> The blind search is an obedience exercise. The bark and hold is not.
> 
> Lies, that is how I did my first dogs. Deja I actually taught her to go around the blind with the helper behind me. I stood at the corner of the blind and she went around to the helper who was about 30' from the blind. Then I moved farther and farther from the blind until she was doing the blind from mid field. During this process the helper had actually moved farther away and then went into blind 6. Deja already had a H&B. This actually worked really quickly with her.


Thats exactly how I've taught blind searches and I've found a lot of success with this and like the results.
It's made the run to search the blind very quick and that's what I want. 

Then we also do the random blind has a helper game to make it an actual search for the dog.


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## pfitzpa1

4TheDawgies said:


> Thats exactly how I've taught blind searches and I've found a lot of success with this and like the results.
> It's made the run to search the blind very quick and that's what I want.
> 
> Then we also do the random blind has a helper game to make it an actual search for the dog.


Question. Don't you want the dog to come to you after going around the blind really tightly, rather than going out towards the helper?


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## Liesje

When I introduced it with the helper moving farther and farther from the blind, it was just that, the introduction. We were training the dog to go *around* the blind on command in order to get to whatever it is that he wants. Also, when bitework is involved my dog is in a much higher state of drive and we have to work more carefully to maintain control so I wanted to make sure the dog understood the behavior while in that state of mind and not just do the obedience at home, bring the dog to the protection field, and have the whole thing fall apart once the helper enters the picture. After those initial sessions, I switched to a toy and built in the requirement that the dog comes back to me, but at first it was just about getting the dog to go around even though that path to the helper is longer. Since it's exaggerated with the helper being way out of the blind, it paints a pretty clear picture for the dog. He's absolutely not allowed to go towards the helper without going around the blind. Rather than calling the dog back to me, I just walk over to the other side of the blind and indicate with my arm and/or give my review/packen/whatever command. My dogs turn right so it looks like this:


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## pfitzpa1

Liesje said:


> When I introduced it with the helper moving farther and farther from the blind, it was just that, the introduction.


Aah, got it. Makes sense. Thx


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## Liesje

If you (or anyone) is like me and wants to set it up so the handler is demonstrating control what I do is send the dog to the blind (on the green line) but then I cut in front and walk over to where that second green arrow starts, then as the dog rounds the blind I am there in his line of movement and can either tell him to platz and then send him onward to the helper or if he shows me he is conscious of me being there, just give him the command/direction to continue to the helper and take the bite.


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## Jason L

lhczth said:


> I have never seen Ellis' video though the title makes me shake my head......


Haha I knew the title would drive you up the wall!


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## lhczth

The bark and hold is an aggression based exercise. The dog should come into the blind, guard convincingly and bark with power basically saying to the helper, "go ahead, make my day". The dog should not come into the blind and be saying "give me my toy, please, give me my toy". The latter is an obedience exercise taught by the handler. The former is not. One is convincing and one is not. One is a actually guarding, the other is a game.


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## lhczth

Jason L said:


> Haha I knew the title would drive you up the wall!


 
:headbang:


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## Chris Wild

lhczth said:


> I have never seen Ellis' video though the title makes me shake my head......


:headbang: 
Ditto! I was afraid to open the thread based on the title. Was very relieved to read that it's mainly a discussion on teaching blinds.



lhczth said:


> Anyhow, I teach the blind search initially with the helper going from 5-6. Once my dog understands this I teach the rest of the blinds with a ball. Once the dog understands all 6 blinds I bring a helper back into the picture, the dog thinks he is in the blind (he actually isn't until the dog is heading for blind 5) so then it goes from being just an OB exercise for the ball to a much more intense search for the helper. I also do the shell game so the dog never knows for sure if a helper is in one of the other blinds. I have seen a number of people teach the blind search with the ball. I have found it goes more quickly starting it on the helper.
> 
> Another thing we do is put 3-4 blinds in a triangle or square and work on the dog paying attention to the directions of the handler despite knowing there is a helper in one of the blinds. The blinds are close together, it is easier to avoid the dog making a mistake and you don't run the dog into the ground trying to get it right.


This is pretty much exactly how I teach them too. 

The only thing I would add is that unless the dog has a strong preference for rounding one direction or another (some do, some don't) I tend to teach the dog to go around stick side. If the dog does have a strong preference I go with that as it's not worth fighting against.


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## Liesje

Chris Wild said:


> The only thing I would add is that unless the dog has a strong preference for rounding one direction or another (some do, some don't) I tend to teach the dog to go around stick side. If the dog does have a strong preference I go with that as it's not worth fighting against.


I wish mine went that way! But being flyball dogs they absolutely only go one way and so far it's the other way 

Some of the game/obedience/toy stuff in "protection" phase is just scary. I guess I never really understood the extent of what Anne is always talking about until someone added me to this discussion group where you are basically stigmatized if you say anything about how a dog should have power, aggression, fight. It's one of those things where I just want to leave so bad but it's so disturbing I can't look away!


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## gagsd

Lies, I deal with that line of thought in person on a regular basis..... amongst German Shepherd people.


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## pfitzpa1

lhczth said:


> The bark and hold is an aggression based exercise. The dog should come into the blind, guard convincingly and bark with power basically saying to the helper, "go ahead, make my day". The dog should not come into the blind and be saying "give me my toy, please, give me my toy". The latter is an obedience exercise taught by the handler. The former is not. One is convincing and one is not. One is a actually guarding, the other is a game.


Is the bite wedge considered a toy? In Ellis Videos he rewards a good bark&hold with a bite on the wedge. And isn't a game just a training method to build the initial "shaping" for the final goal?

For example, my dog is not a big barker. Even at puppy bite work she shows great drive to capture/chase the tug but rarely barks. She is more likely to bark at another dog that is barking than bark at the handler. In the last day or so I have been able to get her to bark consistently (she is tied back and I excite her with the bite wedge) rewarded with a bite on the wedge after consistant barking. This is the method M Ellis uses in his video.


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## Liesje

gagsd said:


> Lies, I deal with that line of thought in person on a regular basis..... amongst German Shepherd people.


I got nailed because I made the mistake of saying I don't want the helper to be my dog's friend (yes, friend) on the field and because I don't want helpers giving my dogs commands or verbal encouragement/markers.




> Is the bite wedge considered a toy? In Ellis Videos he rewards a good bark&hold with a bite on the wedge.


To me it's not just about the wedge but how it's used. Wedge, sleeve, suit, rag, nothing at all....doesn't really matter to me. It's about how the dog is being worked.


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## gagsd

Liesje said:


> I got nailed because I made the mistake of saying I don't want the helper to be my dog's friend (yes, friend) on the field and because I don't want helpers giving my dogs commands or verbal encouragement/markers.


Someone said my dog had thin nerves.... because he looks at the helper instead of the sleeve during the B&H. I really thought I had heard incorrectly.


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## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> I got nailed because I made the mistake of saying I don't want the helper to be my dog's friend (yes, friend) on the field and because I don't want helpers giving my dogs commands or verbal encouragement/markers.


It's such a common train of thought nowadays, and so sad.. 


Unfortunately, individuals like the one in the topic of this thread, are HUGE proponents of helpers "working" dogs while working them.. giving commands, talking nicely, praising, etc. 

I am fine if a helper will pet/calm my dog on the grip, but everything else is my job.. if my dog needs a little support in protection, it's MY job to give it to them, it's the helper's job to act as though they are being defeated - not tell my dog he/she is a good boy/girl. 

I train with a couple Mondio people and they work their own dogs all the time.. I have even heard other Ring-type people say things such as "you don't even need a decoy to obtain a MR1, you can do it all yourself".. 

Sorry, but if my dog is biting someone, despite it being a sport, I sure as heck want them to be taking it seriously.


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## pfitzpa1

Liesje said:


> To me it's not just about the wedge but how it's used. Wedge, sleeve, suit, rag, nothing at all....doesn't really matter to me. It's about how the dog is being worked.


Can you elaborate? I'm trying to get a handle on how best to proceed with my dog. She is not naturally agressive but she has great play/prey/food drive. 
I equate ...
play drive as love of playing and ability to play by herself,
prey drive, chasing stuff. She loves to chase critters (rabbits gophers birds) and other dogs
Food drive, she will do anything for a treat. Her obedience is really good.

But she doesn't have a lot of fight drive. She will stand up for herself if she gets ganged up on but she isn't aggressive from the get go.

She is 18mo BTW.

So I'm trying to build up the power/assertiveness by teasing with the wedge and encouraging the bark. 

If it doesn't rain today I will visit the training grounds where one of our club members has offered to assist. I'm curious as to how he will advise me to proceed.


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## pfitzpa1

BritneyP said:


> It's such a common train of thought nowadays, and so sad..
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, individuals like the one in the topic of this thread, are HUGE proponents of helpers "working" dogs while working them.. giving commands, talking nicely, praising, etc.
> 
> I train with a couple Mondio people and they work their own dogs all the time.. I have even heard other Ring-type people say things such as "you don't even need a decoy to obtain a MR1, you can do it all yourself"..
> 
> Sorry, but if my dog is biting someone, despite it being a sport, I sure as heck want them to be taking it seriously.


To be fair, and I assume you haven't watched the video, Michael Ellis is VERY clear at what point you need to introduce the decoy/helper and what he is training in this video are the basics (round the blind) and basic bark&hold. He is in no way or means saying "you can do it all yourself".

That's why I had asked in the original post if people had watched the video and what were their impressions.


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## Liesje

pfitzpa1 said:


> Can you elaborate? I'm trying to get a handle on how best to proceed with my dog. She is not naturally agressive but she has great play/prey/food drive.
> I equate ...
> play drive as love of playing and ability to play by herself,
> prey drive, chasing stuff. She loves to chase critters (rabbits gophers birds) and other dogs
> Food drive, she will do anything for a treat. Her obedience is really good.
> 
> But she doesn't have a lot of fight drive. She will stand up for herself if she gets ganged up on but she isn't aggressive from the get go.
> 
> She is 18mo BTW.
> 
> So I'm trying to build up the power/assertiveness by teasing with the wedge and encouraging the bark.
> 
> If it doesn't rain today I will visit the training grounds where one of our club members has offered to assist. I'm curious as to how he will advise me to proceed.



Honestly it boils down to personal preference of how you view protection training. I don't train protection with my dogs other than the blind search and doing the normal obedience that will eventually carry over into control work. Helpers work my dog in protection. The way I view training, there is absolutely nothing to be gained having myself "work" my own dogs. They would either not be in the correct frame of mind, or I would be introducing conflict that has no place in our training.

She is young so don't push it. My 20 month old only shows milisecond glimmers of seriousness in protection.

If my dogs aren't showing the behaviors I want/expect on a decoy then I talk with the decoys and other club members about what to do and change how they are worked, not take them home and work on my own.


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## pfitzpa1

Liesje said:


> The way I view training, there is absolutely nothing to be gained having myself "work" my own dogs. They would either not be in the correct frame of mind, or I would be introducing conflict that has no place in our training.
> 
> She is young so don't push it. My 20 month old only shows milisecond glimmers of seriousness in protection.


That's comforting to hear, most of the dogs in our club are either older or the one of the same age as mine seems to have a natural protection instinct but is not very good at obedience.

Q: So if someone else handles your dog during protection, do they also handle them during trials.


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## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> The way I view training, there is absolutely nothing to be gained having myself "work" my own dogs. They would either not be in the correct frame of mind, or I would be introducing conflict that has no place in our training.


:thumbup:


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## crackem

and sometimes you're left with what you're left with. Either you train your own dog or it doesn't get trained at all.


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## BritneyP

I have always subscribed to theory that no training is better than bad training, so some of my dogs have gone long periods of time without doing protection work over the years. I'm still perfectly happy with that decision, as I'd rather they not get worked than work them myself or on helpers I don't trust.


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## pfitzpa1

BritneyP said:


> :thumbup:


But aren't there are many excellent SchH3 dogs out there that were trained/worked by their owners?


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## BritneyP

pfitzpa1 said:


> But aren't there are many excellent SchH3 dogs out there that were trained/worked by their owners?


I guess that depends on your definition of excellent.. 


When I say work, I don't mean not trained/handled by me, I mean I don't "work" my own dogs in protection-based exercises..


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## gagsd

pfitzpa1 said:


> But aren't there are many excellent SchH3 dogs out there that were trained/worked by their owners?


I think what is being said is they don't do "helper work" on their own dogs. They do handle their own dogs.


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## pfitzpa1

BritneyP said:


> I guess that depends on your definition of excellent..
> 
> 
> When I say work, I don't mean not trained/handled by me, I mean I don't "work" my own dogs in protection-based exercises..


Aah, you mean as in being a decoy/helper for one of your own dogs. Well yes, I don't know anyone that would agree that that is a good thing.

Again let me iterate, M Ellis is not saying be your own decoy, he is showing basic exercises that can be done at home to shape your dog so that they have some groundwork for working with an actual helper. The only point where you might consider him a decoy in the videos is where he is teaching the dog to bark, but all that is going on there is getting the dog excited to maintain a bark and then rewarding it.


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## Liesje

pfitzpa1 said:


> Aah, you mean as in being a decoy/helper for one of your own dogs. Well yes, I don't know anyone that would agree that that is a good thing.
> 
> Again let me iterate, M Ellis is not saying be your own decoy, he is showing basic exercises that can be done at home to shape your dog so that they have some groundwork for working with an actual helper. The only point where you might consider him a decoy in the videos is where he is teaching the dog to bark, but all that is going on there is getting the dog excited to maintain a bark and then rewarding it.


And I maintain it's just a different style of training. I don't want my hold and bark "shaped" by me as a prey or play game, I want the dog to be actively guarding, so there's nothing to gain by me doing it at home. Especially with a dog like I've got now that is more prey oriented, more object oriented, I can only make it worse by messing around with this on my own. I think with a halfway decent dog and good helper work the protection exercises aren't really all that difficult, it's not like a dog is going to fall behind by not learning these things at home. I do let my dogs bark at me for toys and such while we're playing or doing obedience but it's just fun we're having together, it's not protection work and isn't intended to be.


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## BritneyP

pfitzpa1 said:


> Again let me iterate, M Ellis is not saying be your own decoy, he is showing basic exercises that can be done at home to shape your dog so that they have some groundwork for working with an actual helper. The only point where you might consider him a decoy in the videos is where he is teaching the dog to bark, but all that is going on there is getting the dog excited to maintain a bark and then rewarding it.


The basic concept behind the entire video is to "teach protection skills at a lower arousal level away from the helper in order to make the dog more successful when it gets to the helper".. 

That is a very different style of training, and just not one that I subscribe to. The things done in the video are actually "being your own dog's helper".. I don't want my dogs playing with a helper, so I wouldn't teach them protection skills myself and play with them, then encourage them to transfer that to a helper with the same state of mind.


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## lhczth

pfitzpa1 said:


> Can you elaborate? I'm trying to get a handle on how best to proceed with my dog. She is not naturally agressive but she has great play/prey/food drive.
> I equate ...
> play drive as love of playing and ability to play by herself,
> prey drive, chasing stuff. She loves to chase critters (rabbits gophers birds) and other dogs
> Food drive, she will do anything for a treat. Her obedience is really good.
> 
> But she doesn't have a lot of fight drive. She will stand up for herself if she gets ganged up on but she isn't aggressive from the get go.
> 
> She is 18mo BTW.
> 
> So I'm trying to build up the power/assertiveness by teasing with the wedge and encouraging the bark.
> 
> If it doesn't rain today I will visit the training grounds where one of our club members has offered to assist. I'm curious as to how he will advise me to proceed.


Deja is a dog with a tremendous amount of fight. It didn't really show up until she was well over 18 months. I actually did little with her until she was close to 2. When we did start serious work with her the barking came easily. 

My male, Donovan, has been harder to work. He has tremendous food, prey and toy drive. His nerves are so darn good, though, that it is very hard to disturb him enough to bring out the aggression needed for strong barking. He is now three and we have finally found what works for him and getting some very good barking, but it is based on frustration. I could not have gotten this playing with him with a toy. It still required the skills of a very good helper who read him right and knew what work we needed to do. It also required patience on my part for him to grown up some. 

Sometimes we are working against the dog's nature because we want to work them, want them to fit into what others see as normal and how people expect them to work (hope that makes sense). The problem you run into doing this play work is you are imprinting into the dog's mind that protection is a game, that the barking is done to earn their toy. You are establishing behaviors that are counter productive to getting what is needed for a really convincing H&B. 

So, maybe your dog is not getting the right work or maybe she needs to mature some more.


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## lhczth

BritneyP said:


> That is a very different style of training, and just not one that I subscribe to. The things done in the video are actually "being your own dog's helper".. I don't want my dogs playing with a helper, so I wouldn't teach them protection skills myself and play with them, then encourage them to transfer that to a helper with the same state of mind.


Exactly!!


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## crackem

I don't know, I think a decent helper can change a dog's mindset pretty quickly

a question about your dog, I have a very similiar dog and her convincing barking does come from frustration, but why can't that be with a ball? I can teach it with a food bowl if I want, it's just frustration. why does it have to be a helper? Frustration can build intensity, but I wouldn't call it aggression.

and why is everyone so hung up on just the H&B? There are other exercises in protection that can be taught with toys and tugs


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## Liesje

It really makes no difference to me how others train, it's just not something I choose to do and don't see the value for myself and my dogs. I do so many other things with my dogs that I simply don't have the time or energy to do protection exercises on my own. I'm more in the camp of just not doing protection if I can't do it the way *I* want to do it. I love Schutzhund and put considerable time, money, and energy into it but I would probably not be all that devastated if I couldn't do it. There have been several times where groups I've trained with have morphed and gone through periods where I've had no helper available and we just do other stuff. For me, protection work is an outlet for my dogs' aggression and fight. I don't need outlets for prey, tugging, toys, frustration, etc because we have flyball, lure coursing, agility, herding...


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## pfitzpa1

We did some bite work this morning. The helper had a soft sleeve and a whip. My dog was barking really aggressively at the helper when the whip was out. She fixated a bit on the whip, so after a few bites he got rid of the whip. After that she bit the sleeve fine but little/no barking. I hadn't seen her bark so aggressively at the whip before in puppy biting.

She got a bit tired after about 4 more bites.

According to the club members, I need lots more practice.


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## cliffson1

I agree with Lisa and Crackem on these issues. Sometimes, actually a lot of times people are working against the dog's nature....I am firm believer in the dog is what it is and training is not going to change it in a major way.....I also agree with Crackem in his believe that a good helper can produce change in the way the dog works.....IF the dog has it inside in the first place. I have seen many dogs with great prey and great nerve that were trained in prey or were sleeve happy initially, and when they finished the police academy they were Definitely serious dogs.


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## lhczth

Thanks Cliff. That is what I was attempting to say about my male and realized I failed. I needed a good helper to bring out what is in the dog. I didn't want him stuck in prey just using frustration nor was I willing to use more "reactive" training methods (which is where many would have gone).


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## Tim Connell

Indeed. 

Similarly, there are many that subscribe to the thought that some high prey dogs come to the bite stronger and more reliably, then once on the grip, bring "defense" and fight to the man once on the bite more vigorously than some others that are not so prey driven. 

Sometimes you don't see that little spark of aggression until the right button is pushed, when appropriate for the dog's maturity and intensity level...then, like Cliffson said, out it comes!

Maybe it's old school, but I feel a dog should show intensity and aggression for the man in protection work, even if used exclusively as a sport dog. "Protection" should be just that. This is where the whole "Schutzhund" meaning "Protection Dog" has diluted with some sport participants, and in many cases is no longer in it's roots. 

I agree with others, that protection work should involve a helper, and after the dog is of sufficient age, should take bitework seriously. A dog that only grips a sleeve like a playtoy is just that: playing, not showing any sort of "seriousness" at all. You might as well just play tug with your dog.


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## pets4life

also i thought a lot might just want to play with the bite bar with the dog at home to devlope its bite and its fun and a great work out 

a good dog will know right away when its being worked in seriouss protection and when its attacking the bite bar or sleeve or whatever at home with his owner for fun 

i have seen people with their pp dogs play inbetween serious training sessions play with their dogs in prey using a bite bar at home but when the dog gets attacked by the decoy it is no game anymore and turns real.

I guess for really prey driven dogs that dont have much seriousness in them playing with them this way might put it in their mind it is a game and they can get locked in prey? I think it would depend on the dog? But more naturally aggressive dogs i am guessing it does not hurt to play with them this way because they are going to take the person serious when they act like a threat?


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