# Pedigree Critique



## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

I already have my thoughts & opinions, but would love to hear what the more knowledgeable have to say 
What would you expect?
What do you see as strong/weak points?
Line-breeding for the progeny of Razer vom Baphomet and SG Champi Apanta rei - German Shepherd Dog


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

So much backmassing on Fero. I wonder how much we should be concerned about this in the workinglines--or if it's just so inevitable and prevalent already that it's useless to worry about. It's certainly producing some very successful working dogs.

Lots of great names in the two pedigrees with some good balancing of high prey and aggression and fight drive built on the pillars of Harro/Orry/Fero through some of their strongest progeny. 

If I were to be concerned about anything in this pedigree it would be -- do the parents have good pack drive and willingness? I think you can get a lot of stubbornness and some flatness in obedience from Orry/Tom. The Yoschy/Troll helps counterbalance that somewhat, but I'm not sure to what degree.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Christine on the backmassing on Fero. As to whether it will prove detrimental....genetics is no repector of individual dogs. Eventually the narrowing of the lines and backmassing will do the same thing with Fero/Troll /Timmy progeny as it did with Lance and Canto/Quanto.
For right now this is probably an excellent pedigree for top sport, just like Canto backmassed dogs are excellent pedigrees for show. If you are breeding for the now....go for it, if you are a breeder that is looking 10 to 15 years down the line.....well this breeding digs you further into the sport world....JMO.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

First let me say thanks for responding with informative posts, not just the typical "nice dogs" post....
Christine, 
Both dogs are very willing & eager to work. I wouldn't say either dog is flat, but the males OB is a bit "flashier". 
Both dogs can & do bring it all when working, but have great off buttons also. Neither dogs have any social/temperament issues.

Cliff, 
The female is mine, the one I acquired from Mariannna. 
I'm not sure how this one breeding will contribute to me being "stuck" in sport dogs 10-15 years from now? Unless you assume I would continue to breed back to Fero lines?
Are you saying that with this particular female, you would avoid Fero lines all the time?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you...which is possible


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The sire (Razor) is linebred 5-5,5,5 on Fero. Champi's 5-6 on Fero. The puppies will be 6,6,6,6-6,7 on Fero. It's far enough back and it's not through just one son of Fero's--so I don't foresee any real issues for this litter because of this linebreeding.

I noted it mostly just to note it--I wouldn't even argue that it means you shouldn't do such a breeding. 

It's something I've been thinking about a lot. Most of my current dogs are children or grandchildren of my Nike, who was a Yoschy grand-daughter. She was a very nice working female with a ton of positive qualities. But she is a *small* female--22 inches and 55 pounds in her prime. This small size comes down from Yoschy, I've been told.

And I also didn't like the dogs I saw linebred on Yoschy and Fero 5-10 years ago--they were edgy and sharp in protection work, often hectic with really active grips. (Today's linebred Fero dogs don't seem to have these problems as much, so I guess the successful crosses were the ones we see in pedigrees and the unsuccessful ones were bred for more balance or never bred.) 

At any rate, I've wanted to avoid breeding back to Yoschy and have spent a lot of time looking for West German (or Belgian or Dutch) working line dogs that don't have Fero. It's very, very difficult--most dogs now have at least one line back to Fero. The exception being all Czech or all DDR. And the top competition dogs seem have not just Fero, but Yoschy--once, twice or more. Many of the sport dogs (which are the ones that are more visible--if they go to become SAR dogs or working K9s they are often not bred much and not seen by many people) in other countries now have Fero, too--Czech, French, Finnish, etc.

So, this argues that Fero has contributed something hugely important to today's schutzhund dogs. What is it? And what are we getting along with that positive that we don't know about just yet? Fero's becoming almost as big a bottleneck in the working lines as Palme is in the show lines. 

So, I wonder--does it even matter if we breed into or away from Fero linebreeding on a dog who is already Fero-bred? What about those few dogs who are Fero-free--should some breeders be making a conscious effort to keep some working/sport bloodlines that are Fero-free?

***

To get back to this particular decision.... If you love both parents, I think you should like most of the results--I think you'll get "more of the same." If you keep a pup for breeding--what bloodlines do you think you would breed into? 

My Bandit pups have been really super--very balanced in drives and sound of mind, high energy but able to settle, good flexibility of purpose and trainability--the oldest just turned 1 year, but they are working in schutzhund, herding, rally, AKC obedience, flyball, and agility. One does school demos with 30-60 children several times a week. The pups need to do *something* but are very capable of doing almost anything. 

And it sounds like those people with Ellute kids are huge fans of what he is producing--they seem to mostly have great temperaments, working ability, and good looks to boot.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Christine, thanks for doing the leg work in illustrating just how much backmassing on Fero is in this pedigree. At a quick glance I could see it was starting to look like the showlines in terms of concentration of a couple dogs and this always comes with a price. 
@ Northwoods....of course I was aware it was your female, who is an aunt to my puppy...lol. I am certainly not against the individual dogs whatsoever. As I said in another thread, TO ME, breeding is about 1) matching two dogs together that will bring balance and utility to the progeny; 2) always maintain a genetic balance so I leave myself in a position to use the right dog that compliments my puppies regardless of lines the dog is found. When lines become too saturated, then if you continue down that road you may be fine for the now, but you are increasing the chances of mental and physical health issues to arise. Hyperactivity is a mental health issue, extreme shyness is a mental health issue, some of the higher incidences of medical health issues; that seem to crop up more in lines that are saturated on a few dogs for long periods, I feel is the result of backmassing. I try to avoid these things by not getting too far in, AND not restricting where I can go because going to a certain dog may lead me further down the backmass trail. You notice I said that this litter would definitely be fine for now.....and i believe that. But you get to a point that you are so far in one direction that to open up the lines is not desirable because of the extreme contrast you will get in the litters....so you go to variations of the same thing you have and sooner or later you will be like the WSL people who don't want to mix anything with their black and red because they lose uniformity. This will happen to the sport world in another twenty years of breeding winners to winners. Cause most breeders are sheep.
Sorry to take so long, and i hope this is clear. I am not knocking this breeding, just saying that I look at something for now and for future, and this seems to travel in direction of too much Fero for me.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Thanks again for both of your informative posts.
I do plan on keeping a puppy out of this female, whether it's from this litter or a future one.
There are quite a few studs that I like(in general), but need to do more research on the match-up with this female to determine what would work best.
My short list includes, but not limited to;
V H'Doc vom Rex Lupus - German Shepherd Dog
V-1 Miky z Tresnaku - German Shepherd Dog
V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach - German Shepherd Dog
V-1 Cesar z Jirkova Dvora - German Shepherd Dog
I am always open to others opinions on quality studs here in the states.....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nice to dream and make plans but I assume this pup has not been born yet (and needs to be evaluated as an individual) , or if from a future one the choice of stud may lead to an entirely different direction.

I would NOT be adding Crok to Fero and Yoschy rich pedigrees.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there was some pretty good information and advice given in Blackthorn's and Cliff's posts --


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

carmspack said:


> nice to dream and make plans but I assume this pup has not been born yet (and needs to be evaluated as an individual) , or if from a future one the choice of stud may lead to an entirely different direction.
> 
> I would NOT be adding Crok to Fero and Yoschy rich pedigrees.
> 
> ...


HUH...must be some confusion? The only thing I mentioned about a puppy was I would be keeping one out of my current female eventually.
The studs I listed are just a couple that I may consider for possible future breeding to my CURRENT female.....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I love the genetic makeup of Doc and Mikey....and feel both dogs have a lot to offer many of the more popular lines.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

northwoodsGSD said:


> Thanks again for both of your informative posts.
> I do plan on keeping a puppy out of this female, whether it's from this litter or a future one.
> There are quite a few studs that I like(in general), but need to do more research on the match-up with this female to determine what would work best.
> My short list includes, but not limited to;
> V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach - German Shepherd Dog


Interesting that you bought this particular dog up. I just heard about him yesterday via email as a friend is looking to get a pup out of him.

Correct me if I am wrong but he is a WL/SL mix? I see that he is a very well accomplished dog. My only thing is seeing what he has produced so far as I don't see many pups?

I wanted to know what others thought about him.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Cliff,
Yes I really like Miky. I like Doc also, but haven't done a whole lot of research on him as of yet.

Ace,
Yes Chuck does have some SL in his pedigree. Even though I have him on my "possible future stud" list, it doesn't mean will use him or with this female.
I have heard only good things about him & his pups. Only time will tell how they mature & turn out.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks. I wanted to tell my friend to wait and see what he produces first before getting a pup but I don't know anything about this dog. I wish I would have found out who the mother of the pups would be.

I noticed in his PDB picture, he has that SL coloring but his face and body doesn't have the typical WL features (if that makes sense). He has more WL features.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Chuck is only about 1/8th showline (through a bitch who was born back in 1989--before things split that much), so I don't think people should let that stop them from getting a puppy out of him--he's certainly proven his own working ability.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Blackthorn - Thanks as I am not familiar with his lines at all. I wouldn't say not to get a pup from him as it all depends on the female he is being paired with. My thing was knowing what he has produced so far unless the strength of the lines dictate that you take the chance


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Line-breeding for the progeny of Razer vom Baphomet and SG Champi Apanta rei - German Shepherd Dog

Ultrasound done today, puppies should be here very end of March, beginning of April.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Chuck is only about 1/8th showline (through a bitch who was born back in 1989--before things split that much), so I don't think people should let that stop them from getting a puppy out of him--he's certainly proven his own working ability.


Ooops.... I didn't mean to imply that Chuck wasn't a "real" WL GSD. Yes you are right that he only has a small amount of SL in his pedigree & it's nothing like the SL GSD's we see today. 
I think he is a very nice dog... Hence why I do have him on a list of future studs I would possible use.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

northwoodsGSD said:


> Line-breeding for the progeny of Razer vom Baphomet and SG Champi Apanta rei - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Ultrasound done today, puppies should be here very end of March, beginning of April.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

Waiting patiently........


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