# Herding terms



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

FYI. I don’t remember seeing these before.





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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

I must have seen this before because I went straight to see if they have an updated definition for “Go Bye”... 20 years later I still have no clue what **** that means 😂 
...I know what “go” means... I know what “come” means... I know what “bye” means... but none of those words in that order make any sense to me 😂🤣😂


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Shepherds, Malinois and Dutchies all have the same style, living fences.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Shepherds, Malinois and Dutchies all have the same style, living fences.


What style do CDs have?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

LuvShepherds said:


> What style do CDs have?


driver


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Heelers were bred to drive half wild cattle. Dingos were actually added to the mix in the breed's creation.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Excluding tending breeds you have breeds meant to drive stock/move them and breeds meant to bring the stock back to the handler so the natural goal of the dog is basically to chase and more them or to bring them back to you and then you shape that further in training and potentially go against that depending on what you're doing.

One of my friends who can't stand heelers says they just like to chase things.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Kazel said:


> One of my friends who can't stand heelers says they just like to chase things.


That can be said of a lot of dogs that aren’t trained for a specific jobs. It shows a lack of understanding.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> That can be said of a lot of dogs that aren’t trained for a specific jobs. It shows a lack of understanding.


He keeps about 9 herding dogs for his operation at a time. They just seem to be a breed that people either love or don't. They aren't really good to use on sheep but my Grandpa who wasn't overly fond of them said they were great for getting bulls out of thick brush. They can be a lot harder on stock compared to other breeds hence why they're cattle dogs not sheep dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My Heeler doesn't randomly chase anything she shouldn't. She is fairly high and very strong drive but only for large, unruly animals. Chipmunks, squirrels, bicycles, skateboards, fast moving little kids, etc., are ignored by her. She ADORES cats. And yes, she is from working lines. Oh, and she has had no training.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My Heeler doesn't randomly chase anything she shouldn't. She is fairly high and very strong drive but only for large, unruly animals. Chipmunks, squirrels, bicycles, skateboards, fast moving little kids, etc., are ignored by her. She ADORES cats. And yes, she is from working lines. Oh, and she has had no training.


That awesome. Like I said a lot of people like them or they don't. There are also a lot of heelers out there that aren't really good for anything other than being working dogs because those dogs aren't bred to be good pets so they people breeding them don't always care about the traits that would make them good pets. And there's a whole spectrum between those dogs and dogs like your gal and the heelers that are even more mild and being bred more for pets. Goes back to why choosing a good breeder is important


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i’m just gonna leave this right here.








let that sink in a minute.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> That awesome. Like I said a lot of people like them or they don't. There are also a lot of heelers out there that aren't really good for anything other than being working dogs because those dogs aren't bred to be good pets so they people breeding them don't always care about the traits that would make them good pets. And there's a whole spectrum between those dogs and dogs like your gal and the heelers that are even more mild and being bred more for pets. Goes back to why choosing a good breeder is important


Actually she is not mild at all when she is in drive. I think it is more important to select a Heeler from a breeder that is keeping the workingline pure vs those that are randomly breeding workingline dogs but crossing in other breeds often with undesirable consequences.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Actually she is not mild at all when she is in drive. I think it is more important to select a Heeler from a breeder that is keeping the workingline pure vs those that are randomly breeding workingline dogs but crossing in other breeds often with undesirable consequences.


I'm not talking about those right now though I am talking about pure heelers and there is a huge range in purebred heelers. Not all dogs you don't like or have temperament issues are crossed with certain breeds(If I'm remembering a previous conversation correctly that breed is not common here and the dogs I know mixed with it and that are working dogs are border collie mixes from California.). Although yes some people in my area do breed heelers to other herding breeds but that often mellows them out out a bit versus the other way around. And I mean mild as in temperament over being a bit sharper like a lot of heelers are. Unless your girls is sharp and easily gets into fights with other dogs or is not tolerant with strangers yes I'd call her more mild than some of the other heelers or more extreme types. They don't necessarily start fights but they have a much higher tendency (like many herding breeds) to end up in fights.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> I'm not talking about those right now though I am talking about pure heelers and there is a huge range in purebred heelers. Not all dogs you don't like or have temperament issues are crossed with certain breeds(If I'm remembering a previous conversation correctly that breed is not common here and the dogs I know mixed with it and that are working dogs are border collie mixes from California.). Although yes some people in my area do breed heelers to other herding breeds but that often mellows them out out a bit versus the other way around. And I mean mild as in temperament over being a bit sharper like a lot of heelers are. Unless your girls is sharp and easily gets into fights with other dogs or is not tolerant with strangers yes I'd call her more mild than some of the other heelers or more extreme types. They don't necessarily start fights but they have a much higher tendency (like many herding breeds) to end up in fights.


I don't know what kind of dogs you have experience with but one of the reasons I own herders is the decreased likelihood of them having a tendency to get into dog fights. I am not sure why you would say such a thing about farm dogs that MUST get along with other dogs while other breeds you tend to favor and NEVER bad mouth can't stay out of fights. Honestly, you have little good to say about Shepherds (including your own), Heelers and you were less than enthusiastic about English Shepherds. Maybe herders aren't the breed type for you. Maybe you should try a breed on for size that you can't find fault with.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Heelers are “different” but GSDs with a lot of gas in the tank can be as well. 

I don’t post about her often (given that this is a GSD forum and not a cattledog forum), but mine is basically perfection in the house. Silent, clean. She avoids cats and will lay down next to the pet rabbit when he’s out in the grass in an ex pen. She’s fine with chickens and ducks and MY domestic animals. 

When she’s “on” she’s something else. Before I got her, she got not a bitch/bitch fight and had to get her face stitched back together (the other dog was a mess too). She has always been fine with my GSDs, including females, but I don’t set them up to fail. I did some herding with her. She’s not a dog for the meek, but neither are some GSDs. You don’t need to be a dragon wrangler to enjoy life with heelers, but they don’t tend to be bred down to couch potatoes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> Heelers are “different” but GSDs with a lot of gas in the tank can be as well.
> 
> I don’t post about her often (given that this is a GSD forum and not a cattledog forum), but mine is basically perfection in the house. Silent, clean. She avoids cats and will lay down next to the pet rabbit when he’s out in the grass in an ex pen. She’s fine with chickens and ducks and MY domestic animals.
> 
> When she’s “on” she’s something else. Before I got her, she got not a bitch/bitch fight and had to get her face stitched back together (the other dog was a mess too). She has always been fine with my GSDs, including females, but I don’t set them up to fail. I did some herding with her. She’s not a dog for the meek, but neither are some GSDs. You don’t need to be a dragon wrangler to enjoy life with heelers, but they don’t tend to be bred down to couch potatoes.


I won't believe it without pictures.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I won't believe it without pictures.


ask and you shall receive. One red dingo in the world of shepherds....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> ask and you shall receive. One red dingo in the world of shepherds....
> View attachment 560765
> View attachment 560766
> View attachment 560767


Thank you! Beautiful! They say the reds tend to be bolder and more outgoing.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I would believe it. She’s coming up on 11 years old this fall and has NOT slowed down. They’re a cool breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> I would believe it. She’s coming up on 11 years old this fall and has NOT slowed down. They’re a cool breed.


Mine just turned a year and I am totally smitten.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ha, i’m smitten and mines only 12.5% acd...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know what kind of dogs you have experience with but one of the reasons I own herders is the decreased likelihood of them having a tendency to get into dog fights. I am not sure why you would say such a thing about farm dogs that MUST get along with other dogs while other breeds you tend to favor and NEVER bad mouth can't stay out of fights. Honestly, you have little good to say about Shepherds (including your own), Heelers and you were less than enthusiastic about English Shepherds. Maybe herders aren't the breed type for you. Maybe you should try a breed on for size that you can't find fault with.


All breeds have their faults. I consider herding breeds dog selective/higher fight risk than say a lab due to stronger personalities. Heelers tend to be higher on that list. SSA aggression can be a large issue in households just look at how many posts there are not recommending two female GSDs. And no not all farm dogs MUST get along with other dogs except when working. It sure is an ideal though, excluding when LGDS have to protect stock. In a lot of those dogs the drive to work overrides any issue they have with each other. Just like there are plenty of farm dogs that will kill cats, rabbits etc. but can still work stock fine. English shepherds are known for being dual purpose stock dogs and varmint hunters.

Also I also won't lie and say that Shelby is a good example of the breed. She's a good dog but she not the best example of a GSD. She does have quite a few things going for her but the overall package doesn't come together. My disappointment in her likely comes through, but it certainly doesn't affect how I treat her. If she was better training wise she'd be a dream dog. Not on here but multiple times I've said I wished I could mix her and my dog Codi to get the perfect dog. (both females so not breeding wise lol) She is the reason I'm considering moderate/WGSLs mixes as what I would breed GSD wise though. SSA, unruly prey drive, fear aggression and issues etc are not issues you have to worry about with her. With wanting to get into herding GSDs I would've seen how much her instincts translated to actually being able to working stock.

Brutus was a great dog, his flaws were health issues once he got older. And I say plenty good about shepherds, but that isn't what always comes up when I'm warning about the issues of going to less than ideal breeders. I've actually recommended them to a friend who doesn't like them because of all the cruddy ones she met in vet offices, and Shelby as nice a dog as she is isn't any better for showing my friend a GSD could be what she wants in a dog. 

English shepherds reading about them did not match up with what I was seeing on them. So that probably comes through in that post. But again could be more about poor breeders but since they're a rare breed that becomes a bigger issue. The fact that they're a rare breed and they have those issues is a bummer but again, plenty of herding dogs from ranches have issues because they're working dogs first. Which is why you have to find a breeder who cares about overall temperament not just if the dog will work stock. I'm learned how much individual lines matter over a lot of other factors (breed splits etc.). (Things like actually working on breeding away from dogs prone to get into fights, or my latest pet peeve dogs scared of loud noise. Working heeler BC scared of things like trailer doors and gates slamming shut...2nd generation of that potentially to be a third.)

I do think if my friend could find a heeler like how your guys are she'd go with them. She's in love with their personality 1x1 training and energy level would be a great fit. But dogs like yours aren't what we are around much. A few of them are also really unsettled unless they have a chance to regularly work stock, the other energy draining options just don't fill their desires. Quite a few places won't sell to you unless you're a working(herding) home because it usually doesn't go so well in town. I actually tried to encourage her to try to find more stable heelers but she didn't think she'd be able to find them so it really isn't just me hating on them if you met these dogs you might understand, literally the only breed I was told to be careful around as a kid growing up on ranches. So if you guys know good breeders I know somebody who would make an amazing heeler owner. (She was spending hours a day exercising her dogs and getting them into crazy amazing fitness, lot of training both tricks and basic training, and didn't think she could handle a herding breed.) Being good with other dogs and people is a must. Also currently in vet school so won't be ready for a dog until she's done with that.

Also I need to calm down and start re-reading things. Have a lot of frustration IRL that is definitely coming out on here. I do apologize for that, usually I try to think things out better before I type them and I have not been doing that lately. Hence more broad generalizing statement and such. I really should know better on dog breeds I guess heelers and dachshunds are my weak points.

I will say I'm actually looking into smooth collies although I'm not totally sold on them I will say breed restrictions are beginning a bigger problem and something I'd have to take into account when breeding and selling GSDs along with the type of people who often want GSDs. I'll still want to get GSDs in the future just don't know if I'll be breeding them.

Sorry this is so long


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> ask and you shall receive. One red dingo in the world of shepherds....


She looks like a scrappy little dog. Full of life.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> All breeds have their faults. I consider herding breeds dog selective/higher fight risk than say a lab due to stronger personalities. Heelers tend to be higher on that list. SSA aggression can be a large issue in households just look at how many posts there are not recommending two female GSDs. And no not all farm dogs MUST get along with other dogs except when working. It sure is an ideal though, excluding when LGDS have to protect stock. In a lot of those dogs the drive to work overrides any issue they have with each other. Just like there are plenty of farm dogs that will kill cats, rabbits etc. but can still work stock fine. English shepherds are known for being dual purpose stock dogs and varmint hunters.
> 
> Also I also won't lie and say that Shelby is a good example of the breed. She's a good dog but she not the best example of a GSD. She does have quite a few things going for her but the overall package doesn't come together. My disappointment in her likely comes through, but it certainly doesn't affect how I treat her. If she was better training wise she'd be a dream dog. Not on here but multiple times I've said I wished I could mix her and my dog Codi to get the perfect dog. (both females so not breeding wise lol) She is the reason I'm considering moderate/WGSLs mixes as what I would breed GSD wise though. SSA, unruly prey drive, fear aggression and issues etc are not issues you have to worry about with her. With wanting to get into herding GSDs I would've seen how much her instincts translated to actually being able to working stock.
> 
> ...


All breeds have their traits. Whether a person chooses to consider them as faults is a personal decision. 

SSA isn't really what it seems to be. Much of it often lies in living in the same household and simply not having enough space. That is why SSA is often triggered by a female coming into heat. The hormones are triggering the female to make sure that she has the resources to raise her puppies with minimal competition. Yet these same dogs that fight in the household can often be taken off of the property and given free access to other males and females on trails, in parks and even in dog parks. A dog's drives are deeply rooted in not only self preservation but in passing on its genes as well.

I remember Ulf Kintzel talking about SSA and dog aggression in general. He said he makes allowances for when new dogs are first becoming acquainted but anything beyond that is removed from his training and breeding program. He said there is no place for dog aggression in sheep herding. I am sure that some dogs that are good stock movers will kill other farm animals but I have little doubt that there are plenty of dogs that are good workers that do not inappropriately put their mouth on another animal.

Not long ago I remember hearing about some competition Border Collie breeders breeding against the breed standard by selectively choosing breeding stock with an enhanced kill bite phase of the predatory motor pattern. They felt that the extra training and risk to suppress the kill bite in order to perform in competition was worth the competitive edge needed that they got in order to win. The heck with the impact this would have on the breed as a working dog. However, this has not gone unnoticed by those who own working farms and they are steering clear of competition dogs. Sound familiar?

Heck, when Heelers were being created, they introduced Bull Terrier blood into some lines. Those dogs would grip the cattle and not let go. They also started killing other farm animals. Farmers and ranchers were quick to eliminate those dogs and lines from the breeding programs. Seeing a pattern? 

Maybe the breeders of working stock are breeding with an eye for overall temperament but it just isn't to your liking. From your past posts, you seem to have an aversion to any kind of aggression. BUT a working dog often needs to have some aggression in order to do its job. A large ram can be quite unruly and a little Heeler needs to be able to drive huge, half wild cattle. A German Shepherd was expected to also protect the shepherd. These dogs need to be harder and higher drive to do the work. That doesn't mean that the dog can't be appropriately aggressive nor does it mean that the dog can't be biddable.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe the breeders of working stock are breeding with an eye for overall temperament but it just isn't to your liking. From your past posts, you seem to have an aversion to any kind of aggression. BUT a working dog often needs to have some aggression in order to do its job. A large ram can be quite unruly and a little Heeler needs to be able to drive huge, half wild cattle. A German Shepherd was expected to also protect the shepherd. These dogs need to be harder and higher drive to do the work. That doesn't mean that the dog can't be appropriately aggressive nor does it mean that the dog can't be biddable.


This conversation isn't productive because you seem to ignore half the points I make so I'm going to bow out. You've also disagreed with me and then rephrased and said the exact same thing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> This conversation isn't productive because you seem to ignore half the points I make so I'm going to bow out. You've also disagreed with me and then rephrased and said the exact same thing.


The conversation is non-productive because you aren't understanding my points at all. I absolutely DISAGREE with your comments and your other points are really superfluous. 

My opinion of your dogs based solely on what you say about your dogs is meaningless as well as being way off topic.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The conversation is non-productive because you aren't understanding my points at all. I absolutely DISAGREE with your comments and your other points are really superfluous.
> 
> My opinion of your dogs based solely on what you say about your dogs is meaningless as well as being way off topic.


Whoops I will apologize on part of that as I apparently deleted part of my post talking about SSA. But *"They aren't really good to use on sheep but my Grandpa who wasn't overly fond of them said they were great for getting bulls out of thick brush. They can be a lot harder on stock compared to other breeds hence why they're cattle dogs not sheep dogs. *"

vs.

*"large ram can be quite unruly and a little Heeler needs to be able to drive huge, half wild cattle. "*

I approve of appropriate aggression. (Edit: hence why I brought up LGDs...) You yourself are complaining about dogs showing inappropriate aggression but applying it in a different way so is it only okay to be against aggression when it's aggression you don't approve of?

And again some stock dogs are dual purpose dogs such as when I mentioned english shepherds and varmint hunting. For some people things like cats fall in to that category. Yet you say that isn't acceptable.

And you constantly go off topic too so please stop starting with that. If you can go off topic and keep bringing my dogs up in the first place (multiple times now) then you have no room to talk when I do.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe the breeders of working stock are breeding with an eye for overall temperament but it just isn't to your liking. From your past posts, you seem to have an aversion to any kind of aggression. BUT a working dog often needs to have some aggression in order to do its job. A large ram can be quite unruly and a little Heeler needs to be able to drive huge, half wild cattle. A German Shepherd was expected to also protect the shepherd. These dogs need to be harder and higher drive to do the work. That doesn't mean that the dog can't be appropriately aggressive nor does it mean that the dog can't be biddable.


Also this right here is why I was saying that herding dogs can have a higher chance to get into fights. 

I never said these dogs weren't biddable, a lot of herding dogs are very soft to their handlers BUT that does not mean they are soft towards other dogs and especially in the heelers I've been around often dismissive or little respect towards strangers. A dog that has to be hard enough and strong willed enough to take on stock often have pretty strong personalities which can increase the chances of fights. Especially if breeders aren't selecting away from that. 

Which again is why I say breeders matter and you seem to like to ignore that. It seems to you other dog aggression isn't ideal and shouldn't exist in working dogs yet many working breeders don't breed away from that. (I do agree that it should be bred away from..) But I don't know what you hope to accomplish by fighting against me when I say it exists, because it's a huge problem not everybody breeds away from and acting like it isn't a very real thing does no favors. It's cool that Ulf does (more breeders should) but a lot of breeders do not.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> Also this right here is why I was saying that herding dogs can have a higher chance to get into fights.
> 
> I never said these dogs weren't biddable, a lot of herding dogs are very soft to their handlers BUT that does not mean they are soft towards other dogs and especially in the heelers I've been around often dismissive or little respect towards strangers. A dog that has to be hard enough and strong willed enough to take on stock often have pretty strong personalities which can increase the chances of fights. Especially if breeders aren't selecting away from that.
> 
> Which again is why I say breeders matter and you seem to like to ignore that. It seems to you other dog aggression isn't ideal and shouldn't exist in working dogs yet many working breeders don't breed away from that. (I do agree that it should be bred away from..) But I don't know what you hope to accomplish by fighting against me when I say it exists, because it's a huge problem not everybody breeds away from and acting like it isn't a very real thing does no favors. It's cool that Ulf does (more breeders should) but a lot of breeders do not.


As someone with a lot of first hand experience with dogs interacting with other dogs of various breeds, I can empathetically say that herders are NOT notorious for getting into fights when compared to other breeds. I have seen Labs and Goldens start more fights in dog parks, parks or on trails than all herding breeds combined.

A dog being hard does NOT mean it has a predisposition for dog / dog aggression or human aggression. 

A dog being dismissive or disrespectful to strangers is a bonus in my books. Do you know where I can get one? That sounds like a bonded German Shepherd with good work temperament to me.

You are right, I don't think breeders matter. That is why all of my GSDs come from reputable breeders out of health tested and proven working lines (note I said proven working lines, not necessarily titled). Heck! Some of them I even imported while others were out of imports. Silly me! I just had all of that money burning a hole in my pocket. I could have gotten pound puppies or ones that were backyard bred and bought that Winnebago!

Actually I was minding my own business when you jumped in to share an insult about Heelers by your friend. Not sure how I am being blamed for that. There seems to be a pattern with insulting GSDs, imports, herders, Heelers..... not sure what you expect on a forum like this when insulting people's dogs.

There really aren't too many breeders in this country focusing on herding. 

If you knew the meaning and function of social aggression and how it applies to real work, maybe you would be a little more forgiving of dog / dog aggression. But social aggression is hard to come by in this breed anymore. There are a LOT of breeders, especially in sport, that have an eye on dog aggression when breeding. For that matter, a LOT of breeders are also breeding away from human aggression. (One of the reasons I have chosen to import or buy from imported lines). I am not saying that you can't get aggression here but I am saying that I am seeing too many working line GSDs with the temperament of Labs even among imports. Aloof is being rapidly replaced with too social.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> As someone with a lot of first hand experience with dogs interacting with other dogs of various breeds, I can empathetically say that herders are NOT notorious for getting into fights when compared to other breeds. I have seen Labs and Goldens start more fights in dog parks, parks or on trails than all herding breeds combined.
> 
> A dog being hard does NOT mean it has a predisposition for dog / dog aggression or human aggression.
> 
> ...


You seem to take everything as a personal attack on your dogs. Saying people have issues with imports is not the same as saying all imports are bad. Saying my dog is a not a good representative of the breed is something a lot of people say yet somehow it’s only bad when I say it? And considering my experience of blue heelers I can’t imagine why you would recommend them to a person who wants a therapy dog which you have done. 

I personally see aloof being replaced by often very fearful dogs or other temperament issues or rather excused as being aloof. I have zero issues with true aloof dogs, I have no problems with a dog that doesn’t want attention from strangers. I have an issue with dogs who bite strangers just for coming near them or touching them. (Within reason of course there are cases where a dog could bite since that’s a really vague scenario and they are dogs.) 

And whenever I say focus on finding a good breeder who produces what you want you completely ignore that. Somehow making sure you are not getting scammed is the same thing as saying all imports are bad. Or finding a breeder who focuses on temperament somehow means I don’t like the temperament people are breeding for? 
I also haven’t said the aggression is bad just that it’s present you’re the saying it isn’t. Also keep in mind there will be regional differences and breeder differences. 
The cases where I’ve seen labs start fights are when they get too pushy and annoying other dogs to they point the other dog goes after them rather than a herding breed not backing down.

I also keep saying they aren’t necessarily going out looking for fights. But things can definitely escalate a lot easier with them in my own experience. I wouldn’t expect them to necessarily go start a fight on a trail (although I know some who would get into fights without strict owner controlbut I wouldn’t expect them to back down either. Not saying that’s a bad thing. But it’s something that happens and I’ll be realistic about it. I also have no issues with dogs not being titled if they’re worked, doesn’t bother me one bit. I feel titles are a substitute for work not the other way around. (Although kennel blindness and love for your own dogs can certainly be a reason to want outside views on your own dogs.) 

And if your heelers aren’t the dogs the bond tight to one person and more aloof I’m afraid I can’t help you there because again, a lot of these dogs end up in working homes only. And I feel you’d not get the dog you expect.

I don’t expect dogs to be happy go around everybody gets along. The dog I just hung out with last night I made sure my guy was respectful because she’s not a fan of other dogs, but she has good social skills despite that. (Leave me be and I’ll leave you be sort of thing.) 

When choosing a second dog I specifically stayed away from getting another female due to my roommate’s dog and found a mild mannered male because I knew aggression issues would have the potential to arise due to my roommate’s dogs temperament and she’s a small dog so she’d be on the losing end. When I got the Doberman who didn’t like my other animals but liked me I didn’t think she was defective for it but knew she’d do best in a different home.
Some types of aggression are not acceptable to me and some I think should be bred away from. Bringing up that it exists and a factor to be aware of though is not the same as saying it’s awful. In my area heelers specifically are worse than other herding breeds for not backing down or escalating situations and it can be an issue with them. I’m glad to hear you’ve had different experiences though because I want people to be breeding dogs like that and choosing to breed away from it.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Also around here maybe not with GSDs but with herding dogs and ranch trucks if you don’t know better than to pet a random dog in the bed of a truck you’ll learn real quick not to.
The dog I’ve been the most impressed with aloof wise was some sort of herding breed mutt, looked like heeler, aussie, and maybe some bc. Could be around a crowd of people, didn’t want pets but wouldn’t bite you for it would just walk away if you weren’t going to drop him scraps, was like a puppy with his owner. I really do appreciate dogs like that. I know a lot of heelers that aren’t quite as tolerant as that, a bit more likely to be not great around strangers. I was going to list some heeler experiences good and bad but don’t think you want to hear that so I’ll refrain.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> You seem to take everything as a personal attack on your dogs. Saying people have issues with imports is not the same as saying all imports are bad. Saying my dog is a not a good representative of the breed is something a lot of people say yet somehow it’s only bad when I say it? And considering my experience of blue heelers I can’t imagine why you would recommend them to a person who wants a therapy dog which you have done.
> 
> I personally see aloof being replaced by often very fearful dogs or other temperament issues or rather excused as being aloof. I have zero issues with true aloof dogs, I have no problems with a dog that doesn’t want attention from strangers. I have an issue with dogs who bite strangers just for coming near them or touching them. (Within reason of course there are cases where a dog could bite since that’s a really vague scenario and they are dogs.)
> 
> ...




Yes, I absolutely recommended an Heeler as a therapy dog. Let's be honest. You have admitted in the past that the Heelers you are talking about not only are mixed breeds, but they were crossed with dog fighting breeds to "toughen them up" but let's blame the resulting dog aggression on the Heeler side.

You have made it quite clear that German Shepherds and herders just don't measure up to your standards. Perhaps another breed? Because honestly, the breed bashing, and ensuing denial is "crap", just like my dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I WISH I could love heelers especially, because I think someday it would be awesome to downsize to a more compact breed. But every single one I've had for boarding I've thought...I could never live with this dog. Mostly because of the earsplitting high pitched yapping. And the tendency to do obnoxious ear splitting demand barking. 

To be fair, I think they were all under utilized pets, so perhaps partly a product of their environment? I guess I've had four or 5 from different owners and they all do it.

My husband wants to RV more when he retires and a heeler would fit way better than a shepherd but oh that yapping. I just can't

So do properly trained and exercised heelers burst your eardums?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I WISH I could love heelers especially, because I think someday it would be awesome to downsize to a more compact breed. But every single one I've had for boarding I've thought...I could never live with this dog. Mostly because of the earsplitting high pitched yapping. And the tendency to do obnoxious ear splitting demand barking.
> 
> To be fair, I think they were all under utilized pets, so perhaps partly a product of their environment? I guess I've had four or 5 from different owners and they all do it.
> 
> ...


My girl is actually on the rather quiet side especially when compared to the Shepherds. She does have a tendency to let out an occasional well spaced yip if left alone in the yard too long or stuck on the wrong side of a door, etc. All in all though, she is not a nuisance barker.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I am the person who was recommended a heeler in my search for a therapy dog and I completely agree with the recommendation. It doesn’t mean I will get one but it was made with the breed and my experience in mind. I have had three other herding breeds in addition to GSDs since I was a teenager, so I understand herding breeds, similarities and differences. I was looking at getting either an Aussie, a Lab, a Golden or an English Shepherd. I was told to consider a heeler. I still haven’t ruled out a German Shepherd which is possibly the worst of those breeds for the job, because it is the one I understand the most. I’ve been reading a lot of reviews of all those breeds when I can find them and I realized there is not one perfect breed. Every single breed has pluses and negatives. Genetics are most important, followed by who is breeding them, because puppy evaluation and selection is also hugely important. Lastly, training and handling abilities factor into what a dog will become. If I was to get a heeler, which is attractive to me for their size, I would ask, beg if I had to, MAWL to connect me with the same lines because that is one awesome dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I am the person who was recommended a heeler in my search for a therapy dog and I completely agree with the recommendation. It doesn’t mean I will get one but it was made with the breed and my experience in mind. I have had three other herding breeds in addition to GSDs since I was a teenager, so I understand herding breeds, similarities and differences. I was looking at getting either an Aussie, a Lab, a Golden or an English Shepherd. I was told to consider a heeler. I still haven’t ruled out a German Shepherd which is possibly the worst of those breeds for the job, because it is the one I understand the most. I’ve been reading a lot of reviews of all those breeds when I can find them and I realized there is not one perfect breed. Every single breed has pluses and negatives. Genetics are most important, followed by who is breeding them, because puppy evaluation and selection is also hugely important. Lastly, training and handling abilities factor into what a dog will become. If I was to get a heeler, which is attractive to me for their size, I would ask, beg if I had to, MAWL to connect me with the same lines because that is one awesome dog.


Thank you! She is awesome!

And when I recommended a Heeler to you, it was absolutely with this particular breeder in mind where I got my girl. Some of the things I liked about this breeder is that the parents were health tested and so were the puppies. Another thing I found particularly attractive with this breeder was when we were discussing my wants and needs, she felt confident that the entire litter was consistent and that I would be happy with any pup in the litter. I find consistent litters immensely appealing because it tells me a lot about what traits are being passed down the line. And she was right as I am thrilled with this little one. 

An alternative to this breeder, in my recommendation to you, was the possibility of my breeding my girl if I could find a suitable stud. I had a puppy from her in mind for you.

I am well aware that one Cattle Dog does not represent all Cattle Dogs but because of her, I have joined many Cattle Dog groups. The concensus among these other owners is that most of them describe their ACDs the same as I do. Of course their are variations and some are a little less social and a bit more protective, but you will find a range of traits in all breeds.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@MineAreWorkingline I don’t think a lot of people reading this forum realize how extensive your experience is with GSDS, Mals and other herding dogs or how successful you are, because you are too modest. They may not realize every dog you own is reliable off leash. A few are better as go-everywhere dogs than others, but all have had good handling, more important, proper handling for their breed and for the individual dogs.

It interesting you highlight health testing. We are so used to GSDs being health tested before breeding, we don’t realize how uncommon it is in some other breeds.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I WISH I could love heelers especially, because I think someday it would be awesome to downsize to a more compact breed. But every single one I've had for boarding I've thought...I could never live with this dog. Mostly because of the earsplitting high pitched yapping. And the tendency to do obnoxious ear splitting demand barking.
> 
> To be fair, I think they were all under utilized pets, so perhaps partly a product of their environment? I guess I've had four or 5 from different owners and they all do it.
> 
> ...


It’s funny people say the same about German Shepherds. If my WL was kenneled without me for any time at all, he would do the most pitiful, screechy whining you have ever heard. When he had surgery, he had to be crated in a different room at night because he could not jump on the bed, and his crying was heartbreaking. I finally slept near him to keep him quiet.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I only met two heelers and I found the two I met to be great little dogs. Gave me interest in the breed. Aggression is aggression just like people it’s not species specific but the kind of balance prey, play, social, pack etc is also what makes the difference along with stability and mental stamina in my opinion. owners priorities and capabilities with training to fix any flaws in the moderate side. To excel in a invidual career one might have to have a higher dose in a particular ingredient. Awhile back at horse clinic the trainer brought down two heelers a male and female that really got me hooked. Not social to strangers but aloof and seemed to tag me and my daughter out of the crowd and hang with us. The herding breeds seem to skill to know their kind lol. The male i saw was more protective and intense -when the trainers horse he was in was getting a bit unruly. It was easy to see the male staring down the horse and I can see in his eyes that sparkle he seemed to be happy to putting the horse into his place but one command from the trainer and the dog lowered his intensity a few notches but hung around to watch. The female did not seem to pay to much attention. They reminded me of gsds in many different ways. They off leash exploring the farm and quiet really enjoyed the farm life really happy dogs.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

An old friend had a Cattle dog her son brought home as a puppy when he moved into an apartment. Guess who ended up with the dog? Her previous dog experience was with Labs and White German shepherds. I used to see them all the time on the hiking trails when her dog was around 8-9. She walked him a few hours every single day. She is a good dog owner, but the last person I ever expected to see out getting exercise, so I started teasing her about walking too much. She said if he didn’t get enough exercise, he started tearing up the house, and he was almost a senior. She never trained him off leash and she refused to get a tall fence around her yard, so he could only get leashed walks and they were not very good at tiring him out. He was a cute little guy but could not walk with us because she didn’t get him used to other dogs and he was too pushy. He was not aggressive he was just obnoxious.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I WISH I could love heelers especially, because I think someday it would be awesome to downsize to a more compact breed. But every single one I've had for boarding I've thought...I could never live with this dog. Mostly because of the earsplitting high pitched yapping. And the tendency to do obnoxious ear splitting demand barking.
> 
> To be fair, I think they were all under utilized pets, so perhaps partly a product of their environment? I guess I've had four or 5 from different owners and they all do it.
> 
> ...


Could it be that boarding is way too boring for a Heeler and they act out of frustration not being able to work? How do you work and mange your boarders? Just curious, trying to understand the reason for this behavior and not meaning to be offensive. So far I have liked the Heelers I met but could never give them what they need to responsibly own one.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, I absolutely recommended an Heeler as a therapy dog. Let's be honest. You have admitted in the past that the Heelers you are talking about not only are mixed breeds, but they were crossed with dog fighting breeds to "toughen them up" but let's blame the resulting dog aggression on the Heeler side.
> 
> You have made it quite clear that German Shepherds and herders just don't measure up to your standards. Perhaps another breed? Because honestly, the breed bashing, and ensuing denial is "crap", just like my dogs.





Kazel said:


> I'm not talking about those right now though I am talking about pure heelers and there is a huge range in purebred heelers. Not all dogs you don't like or have temperament issues are crossed with certain breeds(If I'm remembering a previous conversation correctly that breed is not common here and the dogs I know mixed with it and that are working dogs are border collie mixes from California.). Although yes some people in my area do breed heelers to other herding breeds but that often mellows them out out a bit versus the other way around. And I mean mild as in temperament over being a bit sharper like a lot of heelers are. Unless your girls is sharp and easily gets into fights with other dogs or is not tolerant with strangers yes I'd call her more mild than some of the other heelers or more extreme types.


I NEVER said heelers were mixed those breeds YOU DID in this thread and and a previous thread of mine. Those breeds are just starting to become popular here, before you’d maybe see a Purebred one on occasion. But we weren’t getting much dog mixes of them. I don’t agree with adding those breeds to toughen up dogs but that was the logic used with the BC mixes which are the ONLY ones I’ve talked about as being mixed with them.

I’ve never said your dogs are crap, and I’ve even said it’s awesome your heelers are different snd I genuinely believe that. But you seem to have completely ignored that those are not the typical dogs in my area. If people around here were breeding dogs like that I’d probably like them more. I know of a fair few people around here who have had to euthanize their heelers around 3 years of age for aggression issues. Not like herding nipping but, a get the **** off my property. These dogs are not mixed they’re your average heelers(around here). This is stuff directed strictly towards people. In better hands maybe these dogs wouldn’t have got that extreme but again it’s a reason you see very few as pets around here.

and let’s see, I don’t like breeding GSDs that have fear aggression, extreme prey drive (somebody else mentioned that too) and I prefer a dog that enjoys being trained. So yep I just hate German shepherds so much.

If I’m wrong I’m happy to admit it and learn, I know I’m still young and have a lot to learn so no I’m not doing crappy denial I reread over everything I have wrote and re-adjust my views. Right now I’m re-evaluating my views on heelers which isn’t going to happen overnight.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

alright guys, *That’ll do!!*


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Fodder said:


> alright guys, *That’ll do!!*


Thank you!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Back on herding topic using the whistles for commands is pretty impressive. One of the demos I was at was a working dog but also competition dog so he was trained a little differently from his other dogs. Always impressive to watch a well trained dog. 

That guy trains for a pretty solid bite command which is a really nice level of control to see in his dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> Could it be that boarding is way too boring for a Heeler and they act out of frustration not being able to work? How do you work and mange your boarders? Just curious, trying to understand the reason for this behavior and not meaning to be offensive. So far I have liked the Heelers I met but could never give them what they need to responsibly own one.


My boarders are out of kennels and exercised more than any other place except the huge group/ constant play places. 

Yes I am sure being boarded and being in inadequate pet homes contributed...

Nonetheless they all had this tendency toward this super high pitched ear splitting bark that I just can't stand

.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> ..... So do properly trained and exercised heelers burst your eardums?


I can't speak for the breed as a whole, but my GSDs generate a lot more noise than the cattledog. However - I don't encourage or reward demand/frustration barking in any of my dogs. If she'd been encouraged to bark for a ball, or bark for a treat, she could easily be super annoying. Her alarm bark is sharp and it's definitely loud, but she shuts up fast. She doesn't whine or whistle or howl or make any of the other daily conversational racket that the GSDs do lol. 

She is 100% not a dog to have physical affection forced on her from strangers. She'll slink away from unwanted attention. If someone forces the matter and chases her or corners her, she'll air-clack her teeth. If it goes further, she'll nip. 

I (hopefully obviously) don't put her in situations where this happens, but she's not the sort of dog that would thrive in a household where all dogs are expected to put up with being chased by strange kids or having physical affection forced on them from a drunk stranger at a BBQ (etc etc).


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Kazel said:


> Back on herding topic using the whistles for commands is pretty impressive. One of the demos I was at was a working dog but also competition dog so he was trained a little differently from his other dogs. Always impressive to watch a well trained dog.
> 
> That guy trains for a pretty solid bite command which is a really nice level of control to see in his dogs.


There's a ton of variation in commands. 

A lot of people use "Go bye" instead of "Come bye" because the word "come" is often muddied up by use as an informal recall. 

I switched one of my dogs to "Counter" instead of "Away", after realizing that "Away" was phonetically too similar to her name (Ayla) and her pause command (Wait). She was hesitating on her 'away' flank, and would either look at me or sometimes stop still. I changed the word and retrained the flank entirely, and the hesitation/conflict is gone now.


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