# It looks like I'll be a grandpa.



## Butchsdad (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, I believe I am the proud new owner of a beautiful PREGNANT GSD. She has teets and that swollen belly is pretty solid. My brother went today and got the other male that the guy I got her from had. He said that he was the only male dog she was exposed to. That means that the pups will be purebred GSD's, but he is not a male that I would have chosen to breed her with. He is a gorgeous, big, solid male, but he is very timid. He literally hid under the bushes today when my dad started the weed eater. He was also very under nourished when we got him. I'm afraid that my friend was not taking very good care of his dogs. The good news is that they are with my brother and me now so they will be much better cared for and loved. She is such an excellent dog that breeding her was definately a possibility that I would have considered in the future, but I wish it was with a better male. I have not had her to the vet to confirm anything yet, I will have to wait until Monday, but I have been around dogs my entire life and she is expecting. What's done is done and there's no use crying over spilled milk. I will just have to hope that the pups take after their mother and better the breed instead of making it worse as well as finding good, responsible, loving homes for the puppies. Dog fighting is such a big sport around here, though, that that can be difficult to do sometimes. I'm sure I'll be on here much more for your valued advice. Thank you for offering it so freely.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Hello Grandpa,

You said the dad is gorgeous etc, but timid, I think timid may have something to do with something he has experienced in his past, that may have left an imprint of timid on him. Also your brother just got him and so he is scared and uncertain of what is happening to him. Maybe he never saw or heard a weed eater before.

He will probably come out of his shell later. Good thing you and brother took these dogs looks like your friend was over his head with all the animals.

If the puppies are exposed early on to lots of people and lawn mowers etc experience many more things than dad or mom they may not become timid. 

You have alot of responsibilities ahead of you and people here can help you. I know nothing about birthing puppies, but you have alot of preparations to make ahead of time that I do know. Good luck and thanks for helping these sweet dogs. Keep us posted to please.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Okay, I may have been right.. lol

Do not leave her out to whelp, she cannot give birth in the dirt and raise her babies outside where anything can attack, including germs. Get her into a vet to confirm... she need a lot of special care, especially because she is already thin. She needs to have x-rays to find out how far along, how many, ect. 
You need to bring her in, keep her happy and calm. She has just gone through a BIG change, leaving her owner while pregnant.. and expect mood swings.

Know that this means a possible C-section, if a pup gets stuck, or is too big. That is pretty expensive.
X-rays are not free either, but are pretty necessary.
Each pup will need a vet check, and at least 1st shots while with you, as well as a few wormings. 1st shots here are about $50 each set with a discount. 
This also mean at least two months of cleaning a LOT, making sure everyone is healthy, everyone is eating, mom is okay and producing a lot of milk. In her current state, if she doesn't, you will be bottle feeding 5-10+ puppies every few hours, helping them eliminate, keeping them cleaned, and getting very little sleep. By the time you are completely done with one feeding and cleaning up after it, plus making them go potty, it will be time to feed again.

Also, think about who will get these dogs, you do not know the health of mom and dad, nor their hip, eye, heart, elbow and temperament scores, so it would be pretty wrong to charge a lot for these puppies. You will need an adoption contract for each pup, stating that they have to give the dog back to you if they cannot keep it, or they have to at least get the go-ahead to rehome from you, unless you want the dog to end up in a shelter, or tied behind someone's house 24/7. You NEED to make it a S/N contract, so they have to get their dog fixed when old enough, unless these are champion dogs, they don't need to breed.

This part is VERY important. The birth is NOT a spectator sport, do not let the kids watch. If mom is having a hard time there will be things they don't need to see, and since this is likely her first litter, if she feels a lot of pain, looks back and sees this little creature by her hind end, she could grab this pup, rip it out of her and mangle it, do you want them to seeing a screaming pup bleeding out with no front legs or something, and be scared of mom because they just saw her kill her own innocent baby? This happens more than you would think.

Another thing with the pups, some mothers will EAT them. I have heard of breeders (one I know) panicking and thinking someone is stealing their pups, as they disappear one by one, only to walk in as mom is chewing up the carcass of another. 

Breeding and raising pups is not what most think, she doesn't just pop a bunch of lovely furballs out without a lot of issues and have them ready for new homes by herself. It is very hard work... This is the very reason I do not want to get into breeding. 

I'm not trying to rant at you at all, but I'm not sure if you know all of this. 
Good luck, and let us know what your vet says..


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Do not judge a dog's temperment on taking cover from a weedeater. A dog should be put inside or otherwise kept far away from a weedeater, a lawn mower or other power equipment. 

Other people have advised you on delivery issues. Please take her to the vet Monday for a general health check and more advise. 

When looking to breed in the future, please do some show work with this girl first. Also do some health certs because although she may look and act "excellent" there may be health concerns that you do not want to pass along. There's a lot more in evaluating a stud than behavior in one situation and looks, too.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Good to know the ugly side of breeding! OH my Gosh! 

Oh I hope I did not give the impression that you should let pups get used to the lawn mower probably came out wrong. I meant the noises of them and home type things TV blenders vacums etc.

when we mow or do anything dangerouse our dogs have an awesome kennel they are put in.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
> When looking to breed in the future, please do some show work with this girl first. Also do some health certs because although she may look and act "excellent" there may be health concerns that you do not want to pass along. There's a lot more in evaluating a stud than behavior in one situation and looks, too.


They just adopted this girl, they didn't know she was pregnant


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Great advice above. Hopefully more breeders will chime in soon. You definitely need to move her inside and make a whelping box in an area that is safe and quiet. 

She also needs special nutrition. You want to switch her to a high quality (high protein, I'm guessing) kibble and I'm sure she needs extra supplements now too. Breeders???

As for the dad, you are right in thinking that timidity can be genetic. But if you properly handle and socialize the pups (which seems to be a full time job from what I've seen) then hopefully they will get a good start in life. 

I also agree that it's important to adopt out the pups on a contract and agree to take them back if anything happens. Again, hopefully the breeders can chime in with specific advice for you.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

OR, he may have had a bad experience with a weed whacker, or something similar sounding and it just freaked him out. Our male had been shot before, and every time he heard a gunshot it was a free-for-all escape. He's literally nearly kill himself trying to get over our fence, he got wedged between two poled once and tore most of his toenails out trying to got down.
He could also be under socialized... Which wouldn't surprise me coming from where he did... Your bitch is in no shape to be bred, but they let it happen.

There are quite a few breeders here, I'm sure they would be willing to help you out.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
> ...


I know that. However he said that he would consider breeding her in the future but to a different male. There was no indication that he was going on anything but the fact that he liked her (attitude and looks).


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
> 
> 
> > Quote: They just adopted this girl, they didn't know she was pregnant
> ...


Exactly!



> Originally Posted By: butchsdad She is such an excellent dog that breeding her was definately a possibility that I would have considered in the future, but I wish it was with a better male.


Now you'll have a first experience in breeding that I hope will give you a new perspective, but certainly I don't know how you can be so sure about how good she is after 3 days.


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## Butchsdad (Jan 18, 2008)

O.K., let's clarify some things. First of all, I said that she is a female that I would CONSIDER breeding. That means that As soon as I got her or saw her I didn't notice a defect that would keep me from breeding her. I never said that I had decided to breed her. There are tons of other factors to consider that I have not yet had a chance to evaluate or have checked out. Secondly, as far as the male goes, he is too young to stud (less than a year old), and I have had all of 1 day to spend with him. I am very well aware of the fact that other issues were possibly or probably in place to make him timid. All I can go on right now is my 1st impression of him because all I have is my 1st impression of him. My 1st impression is that he is not a dog that I would have chosen to stud my female IF I decide in the future to breed my female. Having just gotten Heidi I have some concerns about this breeding. I simply expressed those concerns on here to a group of people that I THOUGHT would understand these concerns. Basically, I wish this breeding had not happened because I have an unproven female and an unproven male. If any of you have a problem with that, then that's too bad. Deal with it. I hope that all of the dogs and pups involved turn out to be top notch, grade A animals. I am concerned that they may not. And last but certainly not least, you are free and welcome to give me advice. It is needed and appreciated. You are never free to give me orders. You can suggest what you think I should do or what you would do in my situation. Do NOT order me to bring her inside, do not let my children watch, etc. I do not have much experience with GSD's, but I have owned and bred dogs (mostly beagles) for a long time. i am very familiar and aware of the responsibility, cost, and time involved. I am on this board for advice, knowledge, and to communicate with like minded people about a passion we all share. I will not be talked down to, insulted, or degraded in any way. I am not trying to be mean or hurt anyone's feelings, but I am not going to be intimidated or insulted by people hundreds or thousands of miles away on a forum on the computer.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I do not believe anyone here was insulting you. We were telling you what needs to be done... Geeze, if you are not willing to bring a bitch who is about to give birth in, I don't think you should consider being a breeder. Every good breeder I know gives their bitch comforts while they are carrying little ones. 
I wished you good luck, and gave you all of the advice I know of, because you had already said you didn't have much GSD experience. 
And it can be a very terrifying thing for a child to se, if you don't mind, let them! It's a personal preference, but it adds stress for the dam to have a crowd while she is in pain and in labor. 

Just because we are on a computer doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.. Beagles and GSDs aren't exactly the same, but I'm glad you have experience.
Nobody has ORDERED you to do anything, we've told you what you SHOULD do for the best interests of the dam and pups, there are so many bad things about having pups born outdoors. 
AGAIN.
Good luck, I hope she makes it through well and nothing goes wrong, seeing the birth of a litter is exciting for kids, is it possible you have an area that they can see her good but she cannot see them?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear that your new girls is pregnant. I'm sure it wasn't what you were expecting when you adopted her. A lot of extra concerns to deal with.

My main concern is Parvo! Didn't you get an adult, because even though vaccinated, Butch got ill with Parvo and died about a year ago? And you need to wait two years before getting a puppy as the Parvo stays in the soil and infectious for that long?

Ughh, what awful complications! How will you be able to deal with this litter. I don't know what I would do if I were in your situation.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Butchsdad,

I don't read anything in here as an "order." I think it's all people trying to help and some are politer than others, that's all.







This is a group of people who are absolutely devoted to the breed and understandably feel passionate. 

We also had no way of knowing that you had experience breeding, whelping, etc. As it is a computer forum I think it's very easy to misinterpret people's intentions and tone. There are people on here with great advice but poor social skills (for lack of a better term) and good social skills but not so great advice.









I hope that Heidi gets a clean bill of health at the vet and that her pregnancy goes smoothly. What about the parvo issue? Wouldn't bringing her in the house solve that problem?


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Well everyone has their own opinions. My comments were opinions not advise just thoughts from past experiences, no expert, but I have had a GSD my whole life and I am now 48 UGH! Had a breeder friend years ago just saw and listened did not work with her.

I think there was great advise here and recommendations. It is up to you to take it. I definitely would. 

I think people are under the impression she will live in the pen outside and give birth there which is outside open to the weather and bugs. etc. Which many disagree with, but maybe your not doing that and we misunderstood. Of course dogs need their outside time too. 

I pray for healthy mom and pups for you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Butchsdad, 

I am not sure where you got your dogs from. There is a possibility that the pups are not purebred. They have a young male, less than a year old. Your bitch is already showing signs of pregnancy, which suggests that she was bred six to eight weeks ago. Now I am not saying that a nine or ten month old dog is not capable, but some are not ready that early.

Still, even if he was the stud, it does not mean that he was indeed the only dog she has encountered. Some sly border collie mixture could easily scale a fenced area and provide enough sperm to fill the shelters in North America, and retreat into the night without anyone being the wiser. 

Then too is that you are dealing with someone wishing to get rid of their pregnant bitch. Telling you that the pups are out of their nice purebred stud sounds a whole lot better to a prospective new owner than telling them that they found a dachsund mixture in with her one day but they are just sure he would not have been able to mate with her. 

If the puppies come out looking half dalmation and half shepherd, you can call them on it, and they will say, they didn't know anything about it. 

Since you were not the owner when she was bred, and did not witness the breeding, I am not sure that you will be able to register the pups in any case. Maybe with DNA testing but I doubt it. 

So now you are trying to find owners who a willing to take unregistered puppies where there are no heath certifications, no titles on the parents, the sire is a youngster and possibily questionable in temperament. 

My suggestion to you is to find a rescue and explain the situation with them and ask for help and advice at finding puppy buyers/adoptors for the litter. 

If you can get 100 to 200 dollars per pup on these, I will be surprised. There are no lack of registered BYB puppies, many of which have are offering more than you are. At the same time, you do not want to offer them free. People actually go looking for free puppies, and not usually for any good reason. And often times that which is acquired for free is not worth the trouble of asking the breeder to take it back and it is dumped on the side of a road or at a kill shelter. 

On the other hand, if you get a really good feeling when talking to someone who is interested in a puppy, someone that you know from work or a family member or a friend, or just someone who comes across very well, you can choose to wave the fee if it seems prudent. 

I feel for you. It is hard enough to sell puppies when you have OFA certificates and titles, etc. People want everything, and do not want to pay for any of it. And when you talk to people, they hang themselves. I have had people call me for a puppy and tell me that they cured their previous dog from raiding the garbage, by duck-taping a hunk of decaying meet to her muzzle -- yeah, I am going to sell YOU a puppy. 

I understand what is done is done. You could take the bitch and spay her now. I would probably not do this myself, but I know what I would be undertaking. I know the time and expense that will go into whelping and raising these puppies for no return on your investiment. In fact, the chances are you will spend a whole lot more than you will bring in on this litter. I also know what to look for when it comes to whelping complications, and how much it costs to do an emergency c-section around here -- I have been there. 

The chances that the bitch you acquired is a good breeding prospect are probably 1000 to 1. After finding homes for this litter, you need to get her back into shape, check her hips and elbows, and a bunch of other tests. This is not cheap. You will need to train her and prove her in some venue. You do not need a title to sell the puppies, but it is something that you should do to guarantee her temperament. I am guessing she is registered with the AKC or the SV, if she is not then forget completely about any breeding plans for her. 

There are good people on this site, usually very willing to help with questions etc. Good luck with this.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I don't get the impression that he has any interest in making money off of the pups. He had no idea the dog was pregnant when he got her!


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## Butchsdad (Jan 18, 2008)

While Heidi is, and will remain, an outside dog she will be brought in before, during, and after the delivery. Once the pups are old enough to ween or gone she will be taken back outside. I am taking her to the vet tomorrow to find out about how far along she is and get an expected delivery date. I also never had any intentions of allowing my children to view the birthing because they are 2 very rowdy boys and would get too excited, which would be way too stressful for her. This has been my intentions from the beginning, but no one bothered to ask that. As for the puppies, there is no way that I could register them with anything other than CKC, which is a joke as far as I'm concerned. I personally believe that I could get a squirrel registered as a GSD with the CKC. Heidi is actually UKC registered. Her parents were imported from Belgium and Germany for the purposes of breeding. I have also spoke with her breeder and have her uKC papers. However, I'm not concerned with trying to make any money off of the pups. I am well aware of the fact that I will be out of a possibly substantial amount of money...that's fine. My number one concern is for Heidi, my second concern is for the pups. I am hoping that all of the pups will be able to find homes with people that I already know and trust. If that doesn't happen, then I'm not sure yet what I will do with them. I agree 100% that free puppies aren't the way to go.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I would say that having a dog die of Parvo only a year ago would be a big concern with a female due to have puppies soon. 

Interesting info about Parvo and the different strains. There is the vaccine for one but not the other and the one with no vaccine is the one that is most troublesome for whelping bitches and new born pups.

http://www.heirlair.com/parvo.htm


Val


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

That would be a concern to me as well. 

To the OP - are their aspects of this that you're looking for or open to advice on? For example GSD whelping issues, disease control, puppy placement etc? 

I can see the thread went off in a direction that wasn't what you were looking for but given the information in the original post can also see why it did.


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## Butchsdad (Jan 18, 2008)

I am open to suggestions on all of the aspects of this. I have no problems with anyone offering advice in any area they want to address. Anyone is free to offer any suggestions they want as long as they realize that I am free to accept it or not.


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## Butchsdad (Jan 18, 2008)

GOOD NEWS!!! I was wrong, Heidi is not pregnant. The vet said that everything looks good, but he went ahead and did blood work and a full check up. We will have to wait for the tests to come back before we know, but he said that as far as he could tell she looked to be perfectly healthy. He said that she is thin, but not dangerously thin and that, with a good healthy diet, she would put some weight on and should be fine.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Well that is good news. Now you can get some weight on her and hopefully get her spayed. If is a lot nicer having a bitch as a family dog that is spayed.

What made you think she was pregnant, just wondering?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That is a huge relief! Even from the picture she did look a bit pregnant--the shape of her belly, I guess. Does she have worms?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I bet that's a relief! Maybe her belly was distended from it being full of good food. Not telling you what to do or anything but I hope you get her spayed since she's going to be outside - I wouldn't need that stress in my life.

She's a lovely girl, looking forward to seeing more pictures of her, hopefully carting when she's built up some muscle for eating good and chasing those kids around. Little kids, the best mental stimulation for a young GSD. My older lady finds a quiet spot and sighs with relief when my kids go down for the night!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I still don't understand why the OP wants to leave her outside. It's great news that she's not pregnant after all, but how is he going to prevent some random neighborhood dog from knocking her up if she's chained outside all the time? Wouldn't it be better if she were treated like a member of the family and allowed to live indoors with everyone else?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Cassidys Mom, while I understand your feelings about the dogs should be inside, there are many people who feel that especially big dogs should be outside dogs. Part of it I think is geographical and part learned (from childhood). 

We need to remember that we can't push our way of living with our dogs on others.

Val


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I agree with spaying her, or keeping her well contained, unless you want the lab/pit/border C down the road tying up with her before you even know she's in heat.. 

Good news! 
Did she have worms or something..?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerPart of it I think is geographical and part learned (from childhood).


yep. My parents came from the country but we lived in the burbs, we used to let our dogs run loose. Even after our beautiful female got hit on rt 95, which ran about 1/4 mile through the woods behind out house.

If we were away on vacation, they were chained, usually outside except at night. 

I was like 10 and in 4H before anyone questioned this. My parents were like yeah maybe that is a better idea... I only ended up in 4H because we had a 2 year old HD Pita of an ambred west german cross.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I was growing up everyone let their dogs run loose, never chained and they did come in the houses for the most part.
As an adult when I moved to the lake, again everyone let their dogs run loose. It was just a way of life, and the dogs all got along. I don't remember many unexpected pregnancies either, very few puppies. We moved away from the lake and our dog Stomper GSDx was use to being free, it was like prison to him to be contained to our yard only, but he conformed, no chaining, just knowing his boundary. 
Then we got Clover~ Clover would get out, and she was the neighborhood dog, many let her inside, loved her and fed her treats. Fenced in back yard, but she could open the screen doors, sliding doors and I had young kids, neighbor kids coming and going, she snuck out front every chance she got to visit and eat. I always had to go and get her. It was stressful for me, as I was the only one who cared that she was getting out. AC was never called. She wasn't GSD, if she had been it would have been a whole nuther story, I'm sure she wouldn't have been welcomed in by the neighbors.


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## luvu2 (Jan 13, 2009)

I hope that Heidi gets spayed soon.

If there are loose dogs there are unwanted puppies.

Our new neighbors moved to the country in hopes of letting thier dogs run free it seems.

I do not appreciate the lazy owner approach.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I think it was general practice years (sigh) ago in small towns at least to let dogs run free. ...and breed in public so that kids on their way to school would ask "what's that dog doing!!!" Formal sex education was rather limited.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

GSD are very much family dogs and are better behaved and better or easier to train if they can live inside with their owners. You can bond much better if your dog can be insdie and lay on the floor while everyone is inside watching TV or palying at night, etc.

My dogs loved to be outside during day light but when it gets dark they want to be insdie with their family.

I assume it does not snow where the OP lives.


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Curious...what reasons could one have to leave a pack oriented animal (GSD) outside all of the time? I'd love to hear them...


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