# Grain or no grain



## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Is grain based bad or is it just myth ?


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Cant say whether its good or bad. We feed grain free only because I have a gsd that is sensitive to allergens. I think a balanced meal is best if your dog can handle it. I hope to see what others with more experience have to say.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Ace GSD said:


> Is grain based bad or is it just myth ?


IMO it depends on the dog. Some dogs are allergic to grain based foods. My dog so far has been allergic to all the grain free I have tried.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

It really depends. I don't think it's appropriate to lump all grains in one category, or even all carbs. I think a lot of "grain free" marketing is just marketing -- some of the grain-free foods are not higher in meat protein; some of them just replace the grain with some other carb (potatoes, tapioca, peas, etc.), not more meat. Grains are often an inexpensive "filler" -- so they just find some other inexpensive filler.

I'd say _no corn_ for sure. Too many of them don't digest it well, and as best I can tell, the corn used in pet food is nearly all GMO (and thus likely high in pesticides).

Brown rice and barley, though, are tolerated well by many, but not all of my dogs. OTOH, I've had some that needed grain-free AND chicken-free diets. Chicken seems to bother dogs about as frequently as rice does, in my experience. 

When I had to home-cook meals for a dog with cancer, the vet oncologist's "recipe" for specially formulated, medically appropriate meals for this dog contained brown rice along with beef and other things. 

I thus don't think being categorical about grains makes much sense. I think you have to start out by asking which grains? And most importantly, what are you replacing them with in the formulation?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

most of the grains are the lowest of the low in quality.
that is a problem.
some of them are GMO.
that is a problem.
some are in a form which reduce nutrition , such as "white" rice , or rice that has not been sprouted or allowed to start germinating has phytic acid which inhibit absorption of nutrients , minerals . Germinating neutralizes the phytic acid (phytates).

Chicken , everyone needs to be aware of their food source and quality and raise a stink to have clean , unadulterated foods.
Chicken , program on yesterday after the trials that talked about the egg, chick and hen business. It was so horrible I had to turn it off.
In the US arsenic is allowed in chicken feed . The birds become plumper , look nicer in the grocers cooler . This is what dogs may be reacting to. ??? 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/opinion/kristof-arsenic-in-our-chicken.html?_r=0

The Arsenic in Your Chicken | Chris Hunt

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-10-10/what-was-arsenic-doing-in-our-chicken-anyway-

definitely not good.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think I would rather feed millet or pulses (peas, beans) than potatoes. My concern with white potatoes is the culls....if green, they contain solanine a poison. As far as glycemic response, though, I am not sure dogs have the same response that we do. I believe it is just total amout of carbs not type of carbs in the diet. 

This is a list of gluten free grains (millet is a seed) and gluten - allergy issues in sensitive dogs
Gluten Free Whole Grains | The Whole Grains Council

Issue in the states with arsenic in brown rice (a lot in the US South on former cotton land that has decades or arsenic to kill boll weevils)

All the grains and pulses have phytic acid in their raw state. Because phytates impact mineral absorbtion you wonder why they have not come up with a grain/pulse free AAFCO calculation taking that into account?

Reducing Phytic Acid in Grains and Legumes

Dissecting Anti-Nutrients: The Good and Bad of Phytic Acid | Breaking Muscle

I avoid chicken like the plague. I don't know of a single food that offers TRUE pasture raised GMO free chicken. They put organic chicken in the list and call it organic but the chicken meal is not (gotcha!) .........The bulk of chicken are fed rations largely based on feed corn which is GMO.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Grain Mites, Mycotoxins and GM Crops References:

Book: See Spot Live Longer (Steve Brown/Beth Taylor): Quote: “Recent studies in peer-reviewed veterinary studies worldwide show that the consumption of the carcasses of storage mites that are in the grains used in dog food *may be a major contributing factor in symptoms of allergies in dogs.* We first learned about storage mites and skin allergy problem with dogs and cats from Dr. Patricia White of the Atlanta Allergy Clinic during her presentation at the canned or home cooked food for allergic dogs, not dry food. *One of the causes of allergy symptoms, she speculates, is storage mites. *Many dogs, like many people, have allergy problems. Highly processed, inappropriate food does not provide our bodies with the tools for a healthy immune system. Exposure to environmental toxin and inappropriate foods sets the stage for our immune systems to become dysfunctional. Were people or dogs with allergies born with weak immune systems? Did they inherit a generic tendency toward these problems from a parent? Was it malnutrition or exposure to toxins or specific allergens when in the womb? Science is just beginning to find answers to these questions. If our immune system works well, we have no problems. It’s the same with dogs, except the allergy symptoms often show on the skin, with hot spots, hair loss, constant generalized itching, licking of paws, and other skin and coat problems. Storage mites are cousins of the dust mite. Storage mites feed on grain; they seem to prefer the broken grains used in dog foods, and particularly love the mold that feed on less than human edible grains. When molds are under stress – being eaten by predators – they secrete the most deadly mycotoxins. When grains are processed into dog food, the carcass of the storage mite remains in the product. *Consumption of storage mite carcasses, we’re learning, may be a major cause of the symptoms of skin allergies in dogs. *In a study by Dr. Larry Arlian et al published in the American Journal of Veterinary Research, Jan. 2003, 94% of 84 dogs with Atopic Dermatitis had serum IgE against storage mite antigens. He concluded: *Storage mite sensitivity in dogs may be as important, if not more important than dust mite sensitivity”. *A French study, also published in 2002, showed that 120 of 150 dogs with Atopic Dermatitis tested positive for the antigen to either a species of storage mites, dust mites, or both. Dry dog foods are mostly grain, made with low cost, low priority grains with long set times – ideal breeding grounds for storage mites and molds. Storage mites can be in the ingredients used in the dry pet foods, or can be a result of cross-contamination with raw ingredients in the dog food plant after the food was made. The consumption of mycotoxins in unavoidable if a dog eats a grain-based dog food. *We’ll document that long term ingestion of low levels of mycotoxins leads to cancer and other health problems.”* End quote. 

Also from the book: For more complete info about mycotoxins: Jan., 2003 report: Mycotoxins: Risks in Plant, Animal, and Human Systems. (international consortium of 37 scientific and professional societies) www.cast-science.org http://www.cast-science.org/publica...and_human_systems&show=product&productID=2905 & http://www.cast-science.org/publica..._and_health_risks&show=product&productID=2869 

Dogs Naturally Magazine: Corn and Your Dog: Secrets Food Companies Don?t Want You To Know About | Dogs Naturally Magazine 


Jeffrey M. Smith, who publishes "Spilling the Beans," a monthly column available at responsibletechnology.org writes: "_It turns out that the damage done to DNA due to the process of creating a genetically modified organism is far more extensive than previously thought.' _GM crops routinely create unintended proteins, alter existing protein levels or even change the components and shape of the protein that is created by the inserted gene. The concerns of Kirk Azevedo, former Monsanto employee and whistle blower (who left the company after his concerns about their GM crop varieties producing harmful misfolded proteins, which he felt were in some ways analogous to the misfolded prions responsible for Mad-Cow disease, fell on deaf ears), have been echoed by other scientists as one of many possible dangers that are not being evaluated by the biotech industry superficial safety assessments. Jeffrey Smith's book, Genetic Roulette, documents more than sixty health risks of GM foods in easy-to-read two-page spreads, and demonstrates how current safety assessments are not competent to protect consumers from the dangers. His previous book, Seeds of Deception (seedsofdeception.com), is the world's best selling book on the subject.” End Quote


Moms


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

carmspack said:


> most of the grains are the lowest of the low in quality.
> that is a problem.
> some of them are GMO.
> that is a problem.
> ...


I'm with you.

Nevermind that companies are/will be sending seafood and chicken to China to be cooked and packaged (cheap labor) and then returned to the US for consumption by school children etc. China! The same country accused of passing off rat meat as lamb meat, yuck.


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## ChetsDad (Nov 9, 2013)

I'm a firm believer in grain free. As far as to whether or not grain is "bad", I couldn't really say. When I switched my last dog, a Vizsla, to grain free, all his skin issues went away, his coat was beautiful, and he became much more muscular. He lived a long and happy life. Right now we have our 9 month old GSD on it and he has done fantastic, big, lean, with a gorgeous coat. About 6 weeks ago we adopted another Vizsla and switched him to grain free as well. When he got him he smelled, had all sorts of skin issues, and was itchy. Now his skin issues have gone away, his coat is shiny, he smells like a Vizsla (heaven in my mind) and is all together a different dog. Definitely not scientific, but that has been my experience with grain free and I'm a firm believer in it.


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## wolfie13 (Jun 14, 2014)

What grain free food is good for a new puppy of 2 months? I'm trying to find a good diet for him. I didn't know about the grain possibly being bad. Any help, please?


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

I won't feed grain free to my puppy. But there are a few with correct calcium prosperous levels. That is Acana Pacifica and grasslands. And Fromm grain free lines there's 4 different ones. 


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

No grain.....complex carbs from grains are of no value to a dog.


SuperG


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## anitram (Feb 28, 2014)

The arguments that wild dogs didn't eat grain is what most of the grain free approach is based on. That is actually not altogether correct, because if you look at preserved bodies of (ancient) wild dogs, you will see that they ate entire small animals including whatever grains were found in the digestive systems of herbivores. So while they weren't eating corn on the cob, they certainly did always have exposure to SOME grain, just not as much as these days.

I feed grain free mostly because I found that the poops were more consistent and like half the size on a GF food. So it was more convenient for me. I also feed dehydrated raw (Honest Kitchen) on a rotational basis. I like the idea of pure raw but for us it just doesn't work for a number of logistical reasons so something like Honest Kitchen gets you at least halfway there. However it's really expensive and so I try to rotate it with kibble or use it as a topper.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Do dogs need grains? Probably not. Are there some good grain inclusive foods on the market? Absolutely! You just have to find what works for your dog. My go to brands currently are Horizon and Annamaet, but they have to be ordered, but are worth it. They have good track records as far as recalls, variety, GF, and I like their ingredients (esp the Annamaet, I found my parents dog can't handle a bunch of different protein sources or the high protein levels in other foods)..


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Both of my dogs have done best on grain free so whether or not it's true I'll stick with what works


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

My girl does best on grain free. She tends to get flaky, and her coat is mostly black... Plus I prefer to fill her tummy with all good stuff, no fillers  she doesn't seem to mind......


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

Puppies get Fromm puppy my adults are on Earthborn. I don't see a difference in stool on either one or on their coats energy etc. It's all the same. My lab had gunk ears on grain and grain free. Personally I feel brown rice oats are better in foods than peas and potatoes. I don't trust ash and calcium levels in grain free for a puppy either. Not enough research all marketing IMO 


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Is flake same as dandruff ? Is it the white stuff on the hair ? Ace started having those we gonna change the shampoo to the ones w moisturizer


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> Is flake same as dandruff ? Is it the white stuff on the hair ? Ace started having those we gonna change the shampoo to the ones w moisturizer


Yes, but I think he may need more than a new shampoo.

There could be a few different reasons for dog dandruff. First, I'd look at the quality of food you are feeding.....You know the old saying.....you are what you eat!

Also, here are two high quality oil combo's products that can help when added to your dogs feeding schedule:

SH-EMP OIL Nutritional oil : 
*Sh-Emp Oil Blend *is a blend of deep cold-water herring oil, organically grown cold pressed hemp seed oil, organically grown hand pressed extra virgin coconut oil and is the perfect partner for Feed-Sentials K9.
The herring oil is a source of brain enhancing DHA/EPA, which can be converted by the body into Omega 3. Hemp oil is a source of Omega 6, 3, 9 and GLA (Gamma Linoleic Acid). The virgin coconut oil found in Sh-Emp is a medium chain triglyceride rich in lauric acid. It provides both nutrient and functional value.

Ultra Oil for Pets Skin & Coat Supplement with Hempseed Oil for Dogs & Cats* ULTRA OIL*: is composed of the best nutrients nature can provide. Our primary ingredient, Hempseed Oil, is a perfect balance of Omega-3, Omega-6 and Omega-9. Next we have added Omega-6 rich Flaxseed Oil which is then balance with Omega-3 rich Fish Oil followed by Grapeseed Oil to help naturally preserve and act as an all natural antioxidant. *Ingredients* - Canadian Hempseed Oil, Flaxseed oil, Fish oil (sardine and anchovy), Grapeseed oil, di-alpha tocopherol (source of vitamin E), Vitamin A Palmitate, Sodium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Selenium Proteinate, Zinc Lactate

Moms


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Large Breed Dry Puppy Food - ULTRA? Holistic Puppy Foods | NUTRO® ULTRA&trade Dog Foods this is what i been feeding him


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> Large Breed Dry Puppy Food - ULTRA? Holistic Puppy Foods | NUTRO® ULTRA&trade Dog Foods this is what i been feeding him


Nutro's is made by Mars. IMHO, I'd choose one of these instead:

*ACANA REGIONALS (grain free):* Acana Regionals | Acana Store locator: Store Locator | Acana
*
FROMM'S FOUR STAR (grain free): *Four-Star Gourmet Recipes for dogs - Fromm Family Foods Internet locator: Internet Retailers - Fromm Family Foods 


*NATURE’S VARIETY (grain free):* (*not* Nature's Recipe) Nature's Variety: Instinct Grain-Free Kibble Diets for Dogs | Nature's Variety Store locator: Find A Store | Nature's Variety

*THE HONEST KITCHEN DEHYDRATED FOOD (grain free): *EMBARK: Embark - Grain Free, High Protein Dog Food | The Honest Kitchen Store Locator: Where to Buy Honest Kitchen - Honest Kitchen Stores | The Honest Kitchen A 10# box RE-hydrates to about 35-40 pounds of food, but you actually feed more of this than kibble.


Also, choose Non Grain treats. 



It will take several weeks or more to get his skin in shape.
Always wean your dog slowly on to new food (mix small amount of new food with old food and increase every two days if no upset) or supplements (at least 1/4th suggested amount) to avoid gut upset.



Hope this helps!

Moms


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Thanks Moms , definitely helpful. much appreciated


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> Thanks Moms , definitely helpful. much appreciated


......


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I stay away from chicken and it's hard to find a food that doesn't have any chicken, chicken fat or chicken meal in it, but I did find one that has no chicken anything in it and it is grain free, they all do well with it. I try to stay away from any foul and stick with a fish source .


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## scout172 (Sep 14, 2013)

Shade said:


> Both of my dogs have done best on grain free so whether or not it's true I'll stick with what works


That's how my dogs are and I agree.


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