# Socialization: To have people pet your dog?



## ViciousXUSMC (Feb 2, 2015)

Before I got Nova I read up a lot about socialization and how important it is. It's probably one of the areas that people miss the most as just the "average" pet owner IMO and thus why they behave the way they do around other people and out in public.

Now during that early research I read that you want to take your dog everywhere, to meet everybody, all the environments, noises, places, etc that you possibly can. I even have charts to help me keep track.

Part of that reading was encouraging other people to pet your dog, even offer them a treat to feed so that they know other people are nice/friendly.

Now suddenly here on the forums I am coming across a lot of "do not let others pet your dog" especially in the service dog area.

This has me a bit confused on what I should be doing, and what the reasons behind these recommendations are.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This thread may be of interest to you
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If the pup is happy and excited and wants to meet people, I let them. If the pup is bothered and uncomfortable, I ask people to please ignore him. I don't think you can change temperament. I keep both of them out and around everything though, but I let them learn how to deal with things in the way that matches their temperament.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can run into some issues down the line depending on what you plan to do with the dog. For example, letting a puppy run around in dog parks playing with other dogs is probably something most people who show or trial won't do because they do not want their dog thinking that every time he sees another dog, its off to the races, especially at shows. They need their dogs focused on them, and well-behaved -- kind of the difference between going to church or going to chucky cheese. 

Yes, you want your dog to have positive experiences around lots of persons, places, and things. You want a dog who is comfortable in most situations, so you want him to experience a lot of situations where nothing bad happened. You stay on an even keel and he is exposed to a lot of things safely. Down the line he isn't fussed by them, or most other things when you are on an even keel. 

The problem, of course is people. Unfortunately, we live in a dummed down society where you can tell people exactly what to do, and they will agree, and they will do something totally different. Then, if your dog reacts badly, you are in serious doo doo, and so is your dog. So, you either have to idiot-proof your dog, which a lot of people in this society are not willing to do because it can defeat the whole purpose of having a formidable breed, and may interfere with other training. And possibly because they feel that they shouldn't have to. They shouldn't. But are we going to gamble with our dog's life? 

And then it is dependent on the dog. Some dogs are all wiggles and wags, and slobber and perk, and you can be pretty sure whatever the person does, that dog is going to be perfectly ok with it, and you can just go about your business. Other dogs begin to be suspicious of people they don't know. Some do not want to be touched or petted on the head or back, and they may object. Some are shy and fearful of people coming at them from their viewpoint. People put on that screechy baby-talk voice (that the owner never uses), and haunches over the puppy with hands extended. Some pups do not like this. If they aren't used to it, most will be taken aback a the least.

What is important when the pup is young especially, and then really for the first year or so, is to not overwhelm the pup. If your puppy sees one person and does well with it, who does all this gawky baby-screeching, hand stretching stuff, he doesn't need to meet another one today. You need to gage the puppy and decide whether he has done enough today, time to go back into the comfort zone. 

Really, meet one new person, place, or thing, in a whole day is perfectly fine, and a lot of dogs will be just fine if they do that a couple of times a week. 

Socialization is good, but it can be over-done. Sometimes less is better.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ViciousXUSMC said:


> Before I got Nova I read up a lot about socialization and how important it is. It's probably one of the areas that people miss the most as just the "average" pet owner IMO and thus why they behave the way they do around other people and out in public.
> 
> Now during that early research I read that you want to take your dog everywhere, to meet everybody, all the environments, noises, places, etc that you possibly can. I even have charts to help me keep track.
> 
> ...


being a big propent of that approach "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

I had no choice but to do that with my GSD he had..."people issues" so keeping people out of his space was the best approach! It worked, once he understood I had his back, he would calmly stand by my side or to the rear when I stepped in front of him if someone came to close to fast.Once I could read him and noticed no change in demeanor,around people...daddy does this all the time. He became safe to be around public free of "issues".

What I was "unaware" at the time that the "Who pets" protocol was also the "missing " element in establishing "leadership" with my dog! 

With a puppy it's a bit different but this is how I will train all my dogs in the future. Boxers are my other breed of choice and they by there nature are very "people focused" "everybody" is there friend!

A more people neutral approach, I think results in an overall better balanced dog. If you want folks to pet your dog, as long as you control the interaction,
I find that acceptable. You make the decision to meet someone not the dog, otherwise move on and ignore. If you do that with people and dogs also you most likely "won't" have a problem with "my dog is reactive on leash issues."

I never gave anyone treats to give my dogs! I don't want them viewing people as treat machines! I don't want to encourage them to be rooting around on the ground looking for crap to eat either!

The other thing with the "random" 100 people in 100 days kinda thing is your likely to stumble into the "fear period." If it's a dog with solid nervous no problem, if such a dog has a "bad experience," he'll get over it. But if it's not a solid dog, you may have set yourself up for trouble down the road! Why take the chance??

I'm not an expert but this guy is and here is what he has to say about "the fear period:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kjywxm-O6I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjWBnJ69FDM

hope that helps.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> And then it is dependent on the dog. Some dogs are all wiggles and wags, and slobber and perk, and you can be pretty sure whatever the person does, that dog is going to be perfectly ok with it, and you can just go about your business.










Hey your picking on my Breed.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Hey your picking on my Breed.


 Yeah. 

I prefer dogs who are a little more standoffish than those guys. And when you have come to the place when they (the standoffish ones) are people-neutral, and bombproof/idiotproof, then you have really accomplished something.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> If the pup is happy and excited and wants to meet people, I let them. If the pup is bothered and uncomfortable, I ask people to please ignore him. I don't think you can change temperament. I keep both of them out and around everything though, but I let them learn how to deal with things in the way that matches their temperament.


^This. Socialization is about exposing your puppy to new people/places/things, but it doesn't necessarily have to interact with all the new stuff to benefit from the exposure. That being said, if I have a confident, people friendly pup I see no reason to not let it greet people. But I wouldn't force a puppy who really isn't interested either.

Some people think that letting a puppy meet anyone and everyone will make it "too friendly", hampering any protective instincts it would naturally develop as it matures. I think that's bunk. A dog with solid temperament is going to be able to distinguish the difference between a real threat from a benign stranger (even if s/he's only responding to _your_ demeanor in a given situation), and meeting a lot of people shouldn't change that. 

Keep in mind that socialization should always be a positive experience for your puppy. If she's unsure or overwhelmed, you've probably overdone it. If she's happy and enjoying herself it's just right. You really don't need to get any more complicated than that.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Yeah.
> I prefer dogs who are a little more standoffish than those guys.


Yep prime requirement is Patience, Patience and uh Patience! Life is a party games are afoot (Boxer moto)! Not in the top ten on the doggie IQ scale!  




selzer said:


> And when you have come to the place when they (the standoffish ones) are people-neutral, and bombproof/idiotproof, then you have really accomplished something.


 This^^^, I had to battle to get to people neutral! And then I made it to aloof!

It was a struggle but I learned a lot from my bumpy road with my first GSD. When I got him he was just "another" dog with (for me) a funny face!

Turned out yeah...not just another dog!

But he was worth the battle!:hug:


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I like to expose them to people associated with things and kids. I think kids are the most important because more then likely it's going to be a kid that runs up and gets into the dogs face later on. I like bringing mine to the park, they see kids and I get them on the equipment. I introduce them to garbage trucks along with the garbage men. Fire trucks and firemen. Police cars and police men, I get excited if the radio starts going because I want them not to worry about loud noises. Then you have landscapers and their equipment. Mailmen and delivery people. I mix all these things up and it's always benefited all of mine. They don't bark at the mailman or pizza guy. They ignore the garbage truck and kids playing and bouncing the ball off the fence. I've had police officers come into my home without a peep from the dogs, except the one that decided to come to the window and shine his light in their faces(that turned into an argument between him and I) considering there was no reason for him to be there. I also introduce them to other kinds of animals. By introducing I mean being around them and not chasing them. The huge turtle I found was a real good experience others include geese, ducks, rabbits, horses, sheep and toads. I still have not gotten them to ignore a skunk and I am surprised we haven't had any sprayed, well there is always this summer


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Yep prime requirement is Patience, Patience and uh Patience! Life is a party games are afoot (Boxer moto)! Not in the top ten on the doggie IQ scale!
> 
> 
> This^^^, I had to battle to get to people neutral! And then I made it to aloof!
> ...


 
We learn a lot more from the ones that are challenging, and I think it makes the rest of them that much easier as we go on. Still, we can learn more and more from those that come after, but that first challenging one is the one that tests our mettle. 

Makes me wonder if the dogs are mostly fine, it's the people that have to have a come-to-Jesus moment, or seminar, or confirmation class, or seminary more like. 

It's scary sending pups out with first-time owners. And you're right, most other dogs don't count. The GSD, and probably a few other breeds, have a little something extra that can be very, very good, and can cause a lot of aggravation.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Mine got a good new experience last night. The neighborhood "trouble" house got busted. They had our street blocked off with police cars. These same kids are the ones Summer has been running to for pets over the fence.

Last night she must have picked up on the police vibe when I let her out. She barked like a big dog checking the perimeters of the yard and prancing about with her fur up. It was a great live situation for her. I knew the kids were mostly harmless, otherwise I would have kept her in the house. 

I was happy to see that she still remained confident and free of fear in the unusual situation. I want to be able to choose who pets her. She needed the experience and did well. Came into the house immediately when I called her.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I was happy to see that she still remained confident and free of fear in the unusual situation. I want to be able to choose who pets her. She needed the experience and did well. Came into the house immediately when I called her.


Can't do better than that!


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> We learn a lot more from the ones that are challenging, and I think it makes the rest of them that much easier as we go on. Still, we can learn more and more from those that come after, but that first challenging one is the one that tests our mettle. .


 Yep I thought I had it all together with Gunther (Dominant Male) with dog issues and my assorted Boxers and Boxer mixes. I guess I learned enough from those dogs to keep Rocky from coming "up leash on me" but that still left "High Rank drive issues???"

When I started learning about that, that's when I discovered that the dogs had experience with were all low rank drive dogs!

And then the people thing??? I did get that one done however! 

And the "Who pets thing..." was the right call! Not really sure how it would have turned out if Rocky was my first dog then the others?? He might have been my first fail???



selzer said:


> Makes me wonder if the dogs are mostly fine, it's the people that have to have a come-to-Jesus moment, or seminar, or confirmation class, or seminary more like.


Been there done that got the stitches! I also learned the "proper way to break up a dogfight...GSD lesson!"



selzer said:


> It's scary sending pups out with first-time owners.


I can't imagine doing that! The only thing that kept me from being a BYB is the fact that I knew there was no way I could 7 dogs! And I knew there was no way I would be letting Struddell's puppies go! When I understood more about breeding, I realized I had indeed made a good call for other reasons.






selzer said:


> And you're right, most other dogs don't count. The GSD, and probably a few other breeds, have a little something extra that can be very, very good, and can cause a lot of aggravation.


Pretty much and yet dog number three in the most popular dogs list! Gotta wonder??


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't like people petting my dogs, and I really wish I would of done it a lot less when Berlin was a puppy. Especially since he is training for IPO - a dog that is too social IS a hinderance. Try working on your obedience routine when your dog wants to break to greet the judge.

I believe the best trained dogs are the ones that are completely obedient and focused on you in public. Most dogs have something that is regarded as the highest reward - for some dogs this is food, for others a ball, and for extremely social dogs, people can be regarded as the highest reward. 

Imagine having a dog who LOVES to chase balls. Now imagine trying to train or even walk with a dog like that in a room filled with balls.

Now take the social dog, and see why it may be a bad idea to let them think that people will always reward them with praise and pets.

With Berlin it's been a struggle. We go to a lot of busy places but people are NOT permitted to pet him. Very rarely, if he does well sitting/heeling/whatever it is he's commanded, while someone approaches, then I will reward him by allowing him to greet them. The biggest importance in training is that he realizes I am the means to the reward at all times.

This is of course considering both the extremely social dogs and the average dogs. On the other hand, for dogs that are nervous, I strongly encourage people to ignore the dog and let the dog approach/sniff, and even to offer treats while ignoring the dog. But still no petting or any other behavior that may push the dog to be scared and backed off.

IMHO, there is a difference between proper socialization - exposing a young pup to the world while working on focus, obedience, and attention to you as the handler vs. Just letting everyone pet your dog. People, again IMO, seem to have this strange notion that dogs should absolutely LOVE all other people and all other dogs. It's the same people that drag their dogs to dog parks for doggy play dates. Those people should really get a Golden and not a breed that is not meant to be overtly social. Me, I believe my dogs need to be sound and solid to all potential environmental exposures while remaining obedient and focused on me.

I'm sure I've offended many with this post. Just my own personal reasons for why I train my dogs the way I do. And why many, especially with working or sport dogs, train the same way


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Pretty much and yet dog number three in the most popular dogs list! Gotta wonder??[/QUOTE]

I checked a couple of sites yesterday and they said the GSD had moved to 2nd position in 2014.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Some people think that letting a puppy meet anyone and everyone will make it "too friendly", hampering any protective instincts it would naturally develop as it matures. I think that's bunk. A dog with solid temperament is going to be able to distinguish the difference between a real threat from a benign stranger (even if s/he's only responding to _your_ demeanor in a given situation), and meeting a lot of people shouldn't change that.


This makes me laugh, I'm sorry. Personal protection dogs stem from rock solid temperaments with enough intelligence to distinguish threats from others, combined with LOTS of appopriate training. Not the average pet dog or pet german shepherd even. A dog that is too social and raised and allowed to think everyone is the greatest reward ever may definitely not be able to distinguish between the two. Probably one reason Berlin let a complete stranger get into my car in the middle of the night, despite the fact that I was absolutely terrified and hysterical.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anubis_Star said:


> Imagine having a dog who LOVES to chase balls. Now imagine trying to train or even walk with a dog like that in a room filled with balls.


Oh, like Halo at flyball? :wild: For us that was a HUGE training issue, but I can happily say that she now ignores all the loose tennis balls laying around. It was a challenge, but it can be done.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> We learn a lot more from the ones that are challenging, and I think it makes the rest of them that much easier as we go on. Still, we can learn more and more from those that come after, but that first challenging one is the one that tests our mettle.
> 
> Makes me wonder if the dogs are mostly fine, it's the people that have to have a come-to-Jesus moment, or seminar, or confirmation class, or seminary more like.
> 
> It's scary sending pups out with first-time owners. And you're right, most other dogs don't count. The GSD, and probably a few other breeds, have a little something extra that can be very, very good, and can cause a lot of aggravation.


Totally agree that my GSD has made me a better handler. My other dogs made me look good and were easily managed and trained. I take private lessons with Simon. The quality of our relationship impacts obedience. I find the better connected we are, the better the obedience. The more he trusts me, the better the obedience. i have become much more adept at reading his body language.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anubis_Star said:


> This makes me laugh, I'm sorry. Personal protection dogs stem from rock solid temperaments with enough intelligence to distinguish threats from others, combined with LOTS of appopriate training.


Of COURSE! I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that *if* a dog has the genetic temperament to be naturally protective, I don't think you're going to ruin that by letting people pet the dog as a puppy. If they don't have it, they don't have it, so it probably won't matter.

I have no interest in training my dogs for personal protection, but you can bet your bippy they are a visual and vocal deterrent, which is all I need. Especially Halo. Keefer is very social, but he was always that way, it was how the breeder described him as a puppy, before we even got him, and she was absolutely right. Just because I don't expect them to _actually _protect me doesn't mean they won't alert. Well, Halo anyway, lol.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> This makes me laugh, I'm sorry. Personal protection dogs stem from rock solid temperaments with enough intelligence to distinguish threats from others, combined with LOTS of appopriate training. Not the average pet dog or pet german shepherd even. A dog that is too social and raised and allowed to think everyone is the greatest reward ever may definitely not be able to distinguish between the two. Probably one reason Berlin let a complete stranger get into my car in the middle of the night, despite the fact that I was absolutely terrified and hysterical.


So Berlin is not allowed to be pet by people because focus needs to be on you, etc, but yet he let someone get in the car while you were hysterical? So the reason he allowed this is because he doesn't have good nerves, he was over socialized, or not enough training? I'm just a little confused? What is the reason you think he allowed a stranger to get in the car? I'm just curious


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

llombardo said:


> So Berlin is not allowed to be pet by people because focus needs to be on you, etc, but yet he let someone get in the car while you were hysterical? So the reason he allowed this is because he doesn't have good nerves, he was over socialized, or not enough training-I'm confused.


He allowed it because few dogs truly have the proper temperament to be protection dogs - therefore few dogs will actually protect - he's extremely social so a stranger is great in his mind, and because he has had absolutely zero training in any kind of protection work. Good nerves he has. The fearful dog is more apt to bite the stranger, doesn't make it a great dog by any means. It just makes me laugh because so many people have this notion that their dogs with zero training for it and likely improper temperament for it will still somehow know when and who to "protect" their handler from.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Of COURSE! I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that *if* a dog has the genetic temperament to be naturally protective, I don't think you're going to ruin that by letting people pet the dog as a puppy. If they don't have it, they don't have it, so it probably won't matter.
> 
> I have no interest in training my dogs for personal protection, but you can bet your bippy they are a visual and vocal deterrent, which is all I need. Especially Halo. Keefer is very social, but he was always that way, it was how the breeder described him as a puppy, before we even got him, and she was absolutely right. Just because I don't expect them to _actually _protect me doesn't mean they won't alert. Well, Halo anyway, lol.


Oh I completely agree with this haha. Zeke probably never would of ACTUALLY done anything but he definitely barked at the appropriate times and acted like a decent enough deterrent. Berlin, well... luckily he at least looks big and intimidating


----------



## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

I have the problem that Wick constantly WANTS to go to other people, so we consistently are working on training him to go places and ignore the people and dogs... and to please pay attention to me. 

Personally after socializing him I wish I had let people interact a little less, I found many were annoying and too rough with him. In fact the only humans I trusted with him were children and parents because they were all very very careful, calm, and gentle (and of course now he likes them the most too). Ironically (I feel now) adults are so full of themselves that they think they can do whatever they want (sorry pure opinion after watching them) and you need to spell out to them that he is a puppy and to be gentle ...

My personal opinion now is to let them see and experience it all but pick and choose who they actually interact with (which is what most of the people on here said too) It saves you the head ache of worrying about bad experiences and trying to get your dog to ignore things/ pay attn to you. 

Oh and I found that people with their dogs were the most annoying to see on walks... they all wanted to let your tiny puppy play with their huge dogs regardless of what you tell them you want...ie no he is only interacting with dogs who we know well - response 99 % of the time : an offended "my dog is very gentle" hmmm... you must be deaf is that your service dog? 

Sadly I didn't have the guts to say this in real life but hopefully future puppy owners will after reading this thread with all these great tips people provided (wish I had).


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you end up with a dog that requires socialization it needs to happen under controlled circumstances early on. Instead of throwing a line on their necks and going out into the unpredictable world where it is much harder to control whether or not the puppy has a good or a bad experience I would introduce a puppy to people who knew how to read and react properly to a puppy from the get go as the first few experiences.

Likewise with socialization with other dogs I would introduce them to stable dogs or puppies with good temperaments where I was able to correct inappropriate behavior or organize the meeting so that the puppy wasn't bullied or overwhelmed early on. At the kennel I keep a small supply of buffer dogs on hand that know how to empower and not overwhelm skittish dogs or puppies.

As far as taking puppies out into the world that I think is best held off on until you have a framework and relationship with your puppy with which to explore the world in a productive way and have a history of good experiences in more exciting situations that sort of inoculate a dog against common freakout situations.

Either way if you have a fearful dog you're going to have a fearful dog. You can make them functional, you can even make the dog seem pretty confident and together, but you can't ever get rid of the fear completely.

Most of the cases of leash reactivity I deal with had it's root in a dog that was simply socialized the wrong way or not at all. There is no such thing as over socialization. Period. End of story. There is such thing as unproductive or counter productive socialization. If a puppy has a fearful response to something fear is often self reinforcing unless it is somehow alleviated. Seeing more of something they're panic afraid of and freak out every time they see isn't going to do any good unless that cycle is somehow broken. 

Most people think the only way to deal with that situation is working at thresholds to try to create a good association with the fear trigger. 

Some people try flooding and knowing that at some point the dog has to calm down because of parasympathetic backlash (can only stay afraid in a heightened state for so long before you have to chill out.) 

It's also possible to punish operant (learned) behaviors that emerge out of that classical (reflexive and unlearned) conditioned fear state which help subside the fear itself and allow for faster and easier counter conditioning but that is a whole other can of worms which is the realm of a very specific set of professional dog trainers.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Pretty much and yet dog number three in the most popular dogs list! Gotta wonder??


I checked a couple of sites yesterday and they said the GSD had moved to 2nd position in 2014.[/QUOTE]Gezze...more members and problems on the way!!


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> I'm sure I've offended many with this post. Just my own personal reasons for why I train my dogs the way I do. And why many, especially with working or sport dogs, train the same way


Hmm odd?? Aparently no, no you haven't!


----------



## Big Brown Eyes (Jan 11, 2015)

In my opinion:

Socialization is code for "teach the dog to ignore the morons on the streets"

That means the dog needs to know not to react to people on bikes, on skateboards, people being silly, other dogs - even aggressive little tykes.

Socialization does not mean you share your dog with the world.

I had let some people pet my dog, but it was a horrible experience afterwards. I learnt to avoid neighbors like the plague. Its kind of like these people then think they know everything, and interfere in everything. 

And besides you want your dog to only focus on you. 

As for other people feeding your dog! Absolutely not!! You never know what some people might have in their hearts! I would never let anyone feed anything to my dog!!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> *There is no such thing as over socialization. Period. End of story. * There is such thing as unproductive or counter productive socialization*.*


I am going to disagree with this line. We are talking about puppies here. Puppies have limits. If you take a puppy to the pet store and have him groomed and besides that he meets 7 different people and sees a bunch of dogs, and takes it all in stride, great. 

If you then take that puppy to the next pet store 10 minutes away and meet more people and see more dogs, and walk around for another hour or so and the dog is still doing good. 

So you drive to the next pet-oriented store and see more people, and some little brat keeps running up to the puppy, and running away, while her mother keeps asking you questions...

There is a point when a puppy is plain played out. He's done. And taking a puppy that has already been through the wringer to more places, well, it is going to get bad.

Of course if the person on the other end of the leash is high strung, or a helicopter owner, or tends to over-react, or is terribly shy -- all of that will be a factor on top of the over-tired pup. 

There is a such thing as too much socialization. A dog of decent nerve should not need us to do any more than normal life with him. Sorry. But we should not have to take special walks and introduce the dog to 100 people in 100 days. Not necessary at all. Take the dog to the pet store to be groomed, fine, he is socialized to the dryer and the groomers, and having strangers handle him. All good stuff. Take him to the vet and put him on the scale and meet the techs, and meet the vet -- more good stuff. Will be there 2-3 times early on, and with a few good experiences, there is no reason the dog should need to be muzzled at the vet. Should be pretty easy actually. 

Where else does the dog need to go? Really? Training classes. Good. Once a week out there experiencing a situation where dogs are under control and people are working with them. The dogs and the people are not there for you, you are not the center of attention -- all good stuff. 

What else is there? 

A good dog needs to be familiar with the rhythms of your home. If you have a teenager and he has a bunch of friends hanging out, the pup needs to be ok with that scenario. If you have a bunch of toddlers because you babysit two people's kids besides your own, then your pup has to get used to babies and toddlers. The rest of the world falls into place without going out to meet and greet the whole of it. A relatively confident person can set out with a dog that has been at home for more than a year, and the dog will be just fine if the dog has a decent temperament.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Not going to argue semantics with you but what you're describing is what I consider counter productive socialization.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

fair enough. Psych 1 was a lot of years ago.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Not going to argue semantics with you but what you're describing is what I consider counter productive socialization.


Aww crap! In the hopes of not derailing what seems to be a very productive thread...what does that mean?


----------



## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> He allowed it because few dogs truly have the proper temperament to be protection dogs - therefore few dogs will actually protect - he's extremely social so a stranger is great in his mind, and because he has had absolutely zero training in any kind of protection work. Good nerves he has. The fearful dog is more apt to bite the stranger, doesn't make it a great dog by any means. It just makes me laugh because so many people have this notion that their dogs with zero training for it and likely improper temperament for it will still somehow know when and who to "protect" their handler from.


 No I disagree here. Many can be "trained " to protect .Many have the right temperament. Genetics being the most important and then the right training at the right time as you have mentioned. So we do agree that getting a GSD with proper temperament, nerve base and training is first. Socialization and training are huge. Lots of GSD's with those capabilities . Having your puppy seeing people as positive won't wreck him from being a P/P dog . Not sure why you believe that ?


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

mattpayne said:


> No I disagree here. Many can be "trained " to protect .Many have the right temperament. Genetics being the most important and then the right training at the right time as you have mentioned. So we do agree that getting a GSD with proper temperament, nerve base and training is first. Socialization and training are huge. Lots of GSD's with those capabilities . Having your puppy seeing people as positive won't wreck him from being a P/P dog . Not sure why you believe that ?


I don't think it will at all. I know plenty of very social dogs that have the proper training. I just think combined with no training, very few dogs are likely to "protect" you period. But especially a social dog. But that to depends on the circumstances and level of "protection". If you show me 2 untrained dogs, one extremely fearful and one extremely social, and asked which one I thought would be more likely to bite, I would pick the fearful one any day. But if you asked me which one was more likely to stay engaged on an attacker, I would probably lean towards the social one because they have a chance to be stable and solid

I do disagree with "many dogs have the right temperament". I think most don't have what it takes to be true PP dogs, despite their training


----------



## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww crap! In the hopes of not derailing what seems to be a very productive thread...what does that mean?


Chip semantics are the meanings of the words/ phrases. Ie baillif used a special phrase to explain what selzer considered over socialization...talking about same thing but baillif's meaning for over socializaion was different... it's a branch of linguistics based on the study of meaning and denotation, psycholinguistics is the class I took that focused on it the most. Most of the time we generally agree with meanings but it can get confusing when new or special terms are used.


----------



## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> I don't think it will at all. I know plenty of very social dogs that have the proper training. I just think combined with no training, very few dogs are likely to "protect" you period. But especially a social dog. But that to depends on the circumstances and level of "protection". If you show me 2 untrained dogs, one extremely fearful and one extremely social, and asked which one I thought would be more likely to bite, I would pick the fearful one any day. But if you asked me which one was more likely to stay engaged on an attacker, I would probably lean towards the social one because they have a chance to be stable and solid
> 
> I do disagree with "many dogs have the right temperament". I think most don't have what it takes to be true PP dogs, despite their training


 I see what you are saying and agree mostly. I do think many GSD especially WL DO have the genetics to protect naturally . I would NOT assume that my dog would without training and would not count on it. I think part of the problem is that many people do not look into breedings genetics enough. Lack of socialization is blamed on far too many things. I would never assume a social dog in and of itself would not be a great PP Dog. JMHO.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

wick said:


> Chip semantics are the meanings of the words/ phrases. Ie baillif used a special phrase to explain what selzer considered over socialization...talking about same thing but baillif's meaning for over socializaion was different... it's a branch of linguistics based on the study of meaning and denotation, psycholinguistics is the class I took that focused on it the most. Most of the time we generally agree with meanings but it can get confusing when new or special terms are used.


Yup we pretty much agreed but didn't agree on what to call something.

Over socialization implies (at least to me) that you can expose a puppy to so many things the puppy freaks out and can't deal anymore. As long as those experiences are positive I don't see that as the case. 

Realistically we know they won't all be positive and if you keep exposing a dog to things that repeatedly bother it in ways that don't ever get resolved then you end up doing more harm than good. 

The biggest problem with people socializing dogs is they are unable to properly read the dog and react in a way that will be productive consistently.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wick said:


> Chip semantics are the meanings of the words/ phrases. Ie baillif used a special phrase to explain what selzer considered over socialization...talking about same thing but baillif's meaning for over socializaion was different... it's a branch of linguistics based on the study of meaning and denotation, psycholinguistics is the class I took that focused on it the most. Most of the time we generally agree with meanings but it can get confusing when new or special terms are used.


Kinda what I thought but then, not sure Baillif, kinda makes you have to "spin the wheels more" it's all good thanks.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Yup we pretty much agreed but didn't agree on what to call something.
> 
> Over socialization implies (at least to me) that you can expose a puppy to so many things the puppy freaks out and can't deal anymore. As long as those experiences are positive I don't see that as the case.
> 
> ...












Trying to fight the urge to say..."why didn't you say that in the first place" guess I failed!:blush:


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> I don't like people petting my dogs, and I really wish I would of done it a lot less when Berlin was a puppy. Especially since he is training for IPO - a dog that is too social IS a hinderance. Try working on your obedience routine when your dog wants to break to greet the judge.
> 
> I believe the best trained dogs are the ones that are completely obedient and focused on you in public. Most dogs have something that is regarded as the highest reward - for some dogs this is food, for others a ball, and for extremely social dogs, people can be regarded as the highest reward.
> 
> ...


A lot of this Anubis, I think you're kinda blurring training vs temperament. I'm not trying to say not letting people pet your dog is wrong, thats up to you, but its a little like a lack of confidence in your obedience to think that its going to cause you to fail. What if the judge asks to pet your dog? Some do. 

A room filled with balls is a little extreme, but how about proofing something by teaching them to perform it even though there's toys over there?

One of my dogs loves people. Given the chance he'll drag me 10 yards to have some of them pet him. Given the chance. Its also just as easy to heel him right past them or have him lay at their feet and ignore them.

I don't think much about the whole personal protection thing, but specific to sport, some of the best obedience and protection I see comes from the same dogs that are clear headed and happy enough to greet and be petted by other people. Some aren't social like that, but I don't see a lot of benefit in fighting against their temperament. All obedience has to have an ending, and then they get to be themselves.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> A lot of this Anubis, I think you're kinda blurring training vs temperament. I'm not trying to say not letting people pet your dog is wrong, thats up to you, but its a little like a lack of confidence in your obedience to think that its going to cause you to fail. What if the judge asks to pet your dog? Some do.
> 
> A room filled with balls is a little extreme, but how about proofing something by teaching them to perform it even though there's toys over there?
> 
> ...


I definitely don't think it will cause you to fail. But I do believe you want to set yourself up to win. Are the balls in the room bouncing all around, or are they stacked nicely in a box in the corner?

If a social dog is allowed to great every person, be petted and rewarded by every person, they come to expect that. And in the end, obedience and training should (hopefully ) win out. But you're still fighting, especially in the beginning, to overpower that very big distraction. You're starting out your obedience sessions with all the balls bouncing around the room. Because people are out everywhere in the world, hustling about.

Vs. a young pup properly "socialized" to the world but not allowed to greet every stranger that passes by. That pup will know from the start, people are simply another object in the environment. Not a high value reward UNLESS released by the handler.

As well, a stable dog doesn't need to be pet by every person on the planet to accept being handled when called for. As for fearful dogs being handled by strangers, that's a whole other can of worms, and DEFINITELY not a dog that should be pet or approached by everyone.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think that with a social dog, allowing that contact makes people less of a distraction. It never becomes a high level reward, but the other approach is where you're actually fighting against temperament.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I think that with a social dog, allowing that contact makes people less of a distraction. It never becomes a high level reward, but the other approach is where you're actually fighting against temperament.


I had made the decision not to let more than just close friends pet Summer, but your right - if that is her temperament....


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well this time...I "do" have a dog in this fight! Sooo...my experience with my GSD is as follows. My guy was a rescue 7 month old from "Dogtown Rescue" I was a volunteer and a foster there. 

Guess I could have asked questions about his background but they said Rocky was from a "breeder" and he was a no go because he had "wobblers." 

I "assumed" that because he was a rescue he was used to being around lots of people and being poked and handled and moved about. He seemed just fine!

He was with us for 7 months and I saw no indication of problems? Come the holidays,we had company over in "his" home for the first time. 

Guest were greeted with a "cold hard stare" and a "low growl"???? No barking no lunging, just a "cold hard stare" that said to me..."I will "F" you up if you come any closer!!!

Being a "Boxer" person I was needless to say stunned! So "no" meet my dog for guest or strangers with Rocky!!!

I had no idea, if it was "fear" or "aggression" but I did know "Rocky" was not playing around!! 

Sooo a muzzle at first and out in public we go, (bubble dog, some might remember that thread )

"Who Pets..." is what I did, it was lots of people to be ignored, many miles covered, I "always" kept people out of his space and he learned to accept this as being the "norm" he ignored people/dogs and we moved on.

When I knew what he looked like when he was not under "stress" I dropped the use of the muzzle! "NO ONE" was getting to him through me anyway so it was no longer needed.

A day came when I was cornered into an "encounter" GSD guy, he crossed over to us after I had crossed the street to avoid him!:crazy:

He asked if he could pet Rocky, I was between him and Rocky as usual if people got close! I looked at Rocky "know your dog" and he looked like he always did, when he "knew daddy had his back" I stepped aside and said OK, Rocky accepted his touch without issue! 

Rocky really could care less but that was fine by me...no hostility! During this period I "never" saw him actually move towards anyone! He simply doesn't care about people! 

That was six years ago. I do have to say that if you have had to "deal" with a "bubble" dog it's hard to let go of the past!

I was talking to a contractor last week, that had seen me working with Rocky. 
He had questions so I stepped towards him and Rocky lay down behind me, we were talking and Rocky got up to approach the guy!!

I kinda "freaked," I think I scared the crap out of the guy, because I "quickly stepped" in between him and Rocky!!!

Rocky's calm demeanor never changed when he stepped forward but inasmuch as I had "never" seen him do that before..."I" freaked!!!

Most likely "my" reaction is one of the differences between a "pro" and a "pet person." I had apparently done my job well, but "Rocky" being the only dog that I have had to rehab..."nothing to fall back" on and say "yeah no problem here!" 

Guess I'm better than I thought??


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

If you love people in general.. Do you adore every person you meet? Or you pay with your sympathy to someone and antipathy to somebody else? Myself, I don't like every human only because he/she is a human being. I don't like absolutely every baby only because he/she is a little one. I don't like every dog, and, as a cat lover, I don't like absolutely every cat. So, why should your dog be bonkers about some strangers touching him? Imagine, some guy approaches you and your companion, chatting with him on a bird language for couple of minutes, and then patting you on your head. And, he is doing it only for the purpose of checking it for himself - if he REALLY HAS A COURAGE TO TOUCH you, when he knows that you might smash his nose for doing so. Many people want to train themselves on your dog, many want to train their children, many want to do it just for the sake of it without much feelings towards animals out of boredom, some do it for show in front of a girlfriend or a boyfriend. 
Train yourself to be a psychiatrist, recognise a person/people/children. who can approach your dog, because some people should hear your "No". Of course, it is good for your puppy to be socialized with humans as many as possible, but, please, don't forget, that the dog is a sensitive creature on psycho-energy level, he is capable of sensing the person. And, it is not all. We always forget in such cases that dog smells much better than us. Some pretty boy might stink of pizza, and some pretty woman might stink of Chanel N5 while being generally OK.
Myself, when someone wants to pet my dog or a dog in training, we go through a ritual. The person/child must crouch in front of the dog (I'm asking for that politely), the dog must take sitting position (train your puppy to sit for the reason), the dog must give his paw first, and only after all of this cr I would allow petting. With this procedure wrong people would be filtered out, though it doesn't take as long as it seems.
Important to point, that petting by a stranger must be controlled by you, by your own initiative only, and never by your dog. Don't be mistaken by wagging and licking of your lovely puppy, he is licking other people lips not because he loves humans. And, if you'd allow him to approach people himself without your permission too many times, if you would allow a stranger to step forward without your permission, very well, you never know, wouldn't he attack people when he is older? Dogs change with age and his protective instinct is sleeping yet.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I read these posts and I get what some people are saying. I have no clue where most of my dogs are from and I got all of them at under the age of 1. Every one of them walked in the house like they owned the house and are or were very happy pups that enjoy or enjoyed being around humans. I can't say what would have been stressful for a pup that wasn't like that because I have never experienced it. Because of that I can't say or agree that a dog can be over socialized. It's never affected their training or focus on me. it has made them very neutral and easy to bring them, one or multiple dogs , to places. They don't bark at every sound or while they are in the car. They are quiet and very alert, great at staring people down. Most importantly they all love kids, which is the most important thing for me. I could never have a dog that didn't like or care for kids, it would never work for me. 

I don't think there is a set rule for how many people they should meet in a time frame and I don't believe that there is a certain time frame to expose them to stuff. The point of bringing them out and about is to get them used to stuff that is around them daily. Everything I bring them around will affect them at some point and I want them to know its ok.


----------

