# Useless Vaccines



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

There is always so much controversy over vaccines. Some argue about over vaccination and some argue over ones that some people consider useless etc.. I went to my parents for a vacation and got a list of vaccines offered at a low cost clinic for their dog and saw what I thought was one of the most useless vaccines EVER and after getting a good chuckle at it I decided to share with others that would find the same humor and uselessness as I did. I would love to also hear what vaccines others have seen that they consider useless. There was the classic bordatella etc.. but then at almost twice the cost of the other vaccines ($30) they had rattlesnake vaccinations available. Besides the obvious issues with vaccinating against a poisonous snake the best part of it was where I was... Northern Ohio/southern Michigan, not exactly an issue with ANY let alone an abundance of rattlesnakes.


----------



## Glamdring (Aug 11, 2011)

Hahaha. There is allot of controversy with the issue to be sure. I did a ton of research into it when my kids were born. My family has a very bad medical history with certain vaccinations. Bottom line I learned was that there are crazies on both sides of the issue and finding real information is a real PITA. It makes it very difficult to make real informed decisions. It is a bit easier with the pets, and there are fewer BS laws to work around.

I'm actually curious about the Rattle Snake one. I know a couple dogs down here in FL near my AO that have been bitten by snakes. I'm wondering if it is snake oil or actually effective. I do allot of camping and snakes are always a concern. I'm not sure how it would work; maybe it is similar to my immunity to iocane powder I have been working on


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Karlo's littermate lives in Texas and she has had the rattlesnake vaccine. Depends on where you live for that....I'd still be leary giving a vaccine that may have serious side effects.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I think they're all pretty much useless except for the initial Parvo, Distemper, and Rabies vaccines. 

Anything after the one year boosters are useless. Just titer when needed.


----------



## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I think they're all pretty much useless except for the initial Parvo, Distemper, and Rabies vaccines.
> 
> Anything after the one year boosters are useless. Just titer when needed.


What is "tilter"?


----------



## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

KSdogowner said:


> What is "tilter"?


A titer is a blood test that measures the amount of antibodies present for which ever virus is being tested for, usually parvo, distemper & rabies.

The local vet wanted $500 for each when I asked, ie. $1500.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

KSdogowner said:


> What is "tilter"?


It's a blood test that tells the dogs immunity level to whatever they're testing for. 

For example, if you get a parvo titer, they take some blood and they test the immunity level for parvo. If the blood test comes back that the immunity level is strong, there's no reason to booster. 

Titers saves from having to give boosters when not needed. In my experience, most titers come back fine and there's no reason to ever booster past 1 year.



angelas said:


> A titer is a blood test that measures the amount of antibodies present for which ever virus is being tested for, usually parvo, distemper & rabies.
> 
> The local vet wanted $500 for each when I asked, ie. $1500.


That's pretty outrageous pricing. I don't titer for rabies, but combined Distemper and Parvo runs me something like $120. I'll only do it once every 3-4 years and they always come back strong.


----------



## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

I think all vaccines are useless after the year booster for parvo, distemper and rabies. I dont titer because my vet also wants like $300 each. They do that so you just vaccinate instead. So I do neither.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Jane thats my thing. There are so many side effects to any drug you give your dog that it really has to be beneficial in order to even consider giving it to the dog (IE good outweighs the bad) I don't see how you could vaccinate against rattlesnakes unless maybe it was a series to possibly build up the immunity?

Either way the biggest thing is it was in stinkin Toledo, Ohio right next to Temperance, Michigan what positive could that vaccine provide in that area that was worth the side effects of it or just the simple negative/risk of an extra chemical in the body.

Texas I wouldn't have really thought too much about the vaccine but in the area I was I definitely was a bit mind boggled over it.


----------



## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> It's a blood test that tells the dogs immunity level to whatever they're testing for.
> 
> For example, if you get a parvo titer, they take some blood and they test the immunity level for parvo. If the blood test comes back that the immunity level is strong, there's no reason to booster.
> 
> Titers saves from having to give boosters when not needed. In my experience, most titers come back fine and there's no reason to ever booster past 1 year


Thanks LucyDog and Angelas.


----------



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I really don't know if the rattlesnake vaccine helps, but if your dog did get bit then you're in for a pretty hefty vet bill. Had a cat come in with a rattlesnake bite to the face; he was hospitalized for 3 days and went home with a $2000 vet bill. If I lived in a rattlesnake prone area (which I do) I would just get rattlesnake avoidance training done.


----------



## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Rattlesnake vaccine info

Rattlesnake Vaccine For Dogs | Red Rock Biologics


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

If a dog is bitten by a snake and given anti-venom and it saves the dog then that dog is immune for a couple of weeks after if it is bitten again so the idea of a vaccine is not silly.
For me living where i do......1.5hrs from the nearest vet, on a farm surrounded by the worlds most deadliest snakes, a vaccine that would protect my dog is not "useless". I would be queuing up for it if it existed here and so would all of my neighbours!! Ever seen a dog die from a brown snake bite....not pretty!!!!


----------



## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

sparra said:


> If a dog is bitten by a snake and given anti-venom and it saves the dog then that dog is immune for a couple of weeks after if it is bitten again so the idea of a vaccine is not silly.
> For me living where i do......1.5hrs from the nearest vet, on a farm surrounded by the worlds most deadliest snakes, a vaccine that would protect my dog is not "useless". I would be queuing up for it if it existed here and so would all of my neighbours!! Ever seen a dog die from a brown snake bite....not pretty!!!!


My advice to you is to move to Western Washington. We have no poisonous snakes and poisonous spider are rare.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

paulag1955 said:


> My advice to you is to move to Western Washington. We have no poisonous snakes and poisonous spider are rare.


LOL.....I think being able to vaccinate my dog would be a cheaper option but thanks for the invite


----------



## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

sparra said:


> LOL.....I think being able to vaccinate my dog would be a cheaper option but thanks for the invite


Plus we talk funny, LOL!


----------



## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

sparra said:


> If a dog is bitten by a snake and given anti-venom and it saves the dog then that dog is immune for a couple of weeks after if it is bitten again so the idea of a vaccine is not silly.
> For me living where i do......1.5hrs from the nearest vet, on a farm surrounded by the worlds most deadliest snakes, a vaccine that would protect my dog is not "useless". I would be queuing up for it if it existed here and so would all of my neighbours!! Ever seen a dog die from a brown snake bite....not pretty!!!!


exactly. the rattlesnake vaccine is very helpful. It delays your dog from dying for a period of time before you can get to a vet. In other words you buy time. It does not mean your dog is immune, it just give you more time to get to the vet. If you live in a rattlesnake area then it is well advised. 

On another note, all this anti-vaccine crap is getting ridiculous. Vaccines have saved more people and animals lives in the last 50 or so years than one can count. Yes of course there are the rare reactions. Those are more than outweighed by the vast benefits most of the vaccines bestow.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm not saying the vaccine in itself useless I do however find it useless in an area where the snakes do not exhist thats like protecting your home against polar bears in Ohio the stuff might not be useless but the area it's being used makes it useless. After Paula posted the link it actually seems to work like I had thought by building up an immunity and helping the reaction to not be as lethal so I can definitely see why people would use it in areas where the snakes are a problem. 

Now in all the states (even countries) I've lived I have never seen this vaccine before so it definitely shocked me and initially seemed like "snake oil" However now can't help but wonder, if it's in an area where rattlesnakes aren't a problem and even at the low cost clinic where only the basics generally are, then why in the heck is it not more readily available to places where it would actually be useful?


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I hope it doesn't come as a surprise, but dogs travel too. If a dog travels with his owners for vacation from Ohio to NM, for example, and is going to have some hiking then it is great that vaccine is available. I'm sure if you travel abroad in certain countries you don't wait till you cross the border to get necessary vaccines.

If the dog actually lives in NM, then the dog is trained to avoid snakes, much more effective than vaccines.

So, from my point of view nothing is wrong with your clinic, just the opposite.


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

JPF said:


> On another note, all this anti-vaccine crap is getting ridiculous. Vaccines have saved more people and animals lives in the last 50 or so years than one can count. Yes of course there are the rare reactions. Those are more than outweighed by the vast benefits most of the vaccines bestow.


 We are not saying dont vaccinate. We are saying dont OVER vaccinate. I dont go to the Dr and get boosters every year. Why should my dog?


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

but it's not just a regular clinic.. none of the vets I spoke with while being there (pricing vaccines for my parents) offered this vaccine it was a low cost clinic that operated out of a pet store every other month... I'm assuming if you have the money to travel to NM or someplace else you aren't using a bi-monthly low cost clinic. I would hope/assume that if you were taking trips you had another method for vaccinating your dog then a clinic you had to wait 2 months for.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> We are not saying dont vaccinate. We are saying dont OVER vaccinate. I dont go to the Dr and get boosters every year. Why should my dog?


 
Just want to bring more attention to this. I have never seen anyone say don't vaccinate but a rabies every year when they can be done every 3 etc.. just isn't healthy for the dog.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Only issue with Rabies is that its required by law in most areas to be done every year. So no matter what you have to get it in order to license your dog, at least in my area that is true.

My dog had parvo when he was younger, does this mean he doesn't need the booster anymore? Isn't it like chicken pox in some way...

My vet offered a puppy package when we first got him and it included a lot of different vaccines, like lyme disease, just nice to know that if Frontline fails for any reason the dog is still protected. It will be interesting to see how much the boosters are going to cost me in a month or two and which ones I decide to get.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

martemchik said:


> My vet offered a puppy package when we first got him and it included a lot of different vaccines, like lyme disease, just nice to know that if Frontline fails for any reason the dog is still protected. It will be interesting to see how much the boosters are going to cost me in a month or two and which ones I decide to get.


That lymes vaccine is worthless. I had a dog that I used to give it to and he still got lymes disease. Since then... none of my other dogs have ever gotten a lymes vaccine again. None of my dogs have gotten lymes since then either.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Only issue with Rabies is that its required by law in most areas to be done every year. So no matter what you have to get it in order to license your dog, at least in my area that is true.


This is incorrect. Most states require it every three years.

State Legislative Resources

Including Wisconsin.


There is a lot of research that has been done and continues to be, that shows vaccines last a lot longer than vets want to administer.
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM


----------



## Glamdring (Aug 11, 2011)

JPF said:


> exactly. the rattlesnake vaccine is very helpful. It delays your dog from dying for a period of time before you can get to a vet. In other words you buy time. It does not mean your dog is immune, it just give you more time to get to the vet. If you live in a rattlesnake area then it is well advised.
> 
> On another note, all this anti-vaccine crap is getting ridiculous. Vaccines have saved more people and animals lives in the last 50 or so years than one can count. Yes of course there are the rare reactions. Those are more than outweighed by the vast benefits most of the vaccines bestow.


There is certainly a great deal of misinformation in regards to vaccinations. I started heavily researching it 14 years ago. Back then it was tin foil hat talk that anti-depressants increased suicide risk in teens and young adults, now it is on every happy pill commercial.

The controversy is very similar to vets and pet food. From my recent research into the raw diet for dogs, one thing that comes up all the time is many vets are against the raw diet. They learned about pet diets in vet school. The classes are often sponsored by pet food companies. Many vets do no more research into the area. They went to vet school and gosh darn it they are the experts so shut the heck up already and do what they say. 

Others actually do more research and maybe even experiment. There are a great deal of anecdotal stories about the benefits of a raw diet. Some take it to an illogical extreme of course. But to my knowledge there is no double blind scientific study out there with 2000 participants followed over 10 years.... Correct me if I'm wrong.

With vaccines it is a direct correlation. Many if not most doctors and vets are in favor of vaccines (classes are sponsored by pharmasudical companies; rather favor is the wrong word they are against anything but full vaccinations for everyone regardless of past medical issues). The problem is some just use it as a cash generator at the expense of their patients. Some out of ignorance. With people there is a major complication because of politicians. They write 1 size fits all laws. It brooks no thought. You can comply or find a way out. But you can't do both. If you think, like in my family history that has a medical history of poor responses to vacinations that you should pick and choose what vaccines you get and when with the help of a knowledgeable doctor, you can't. Some politician who can't spell knowledgeable made a law that prohibits you. You can op out or in all the way. Want just 1 vaccine to see if there are side effects, nope, have to do the cocktail...

Then many doctors won't even see your kids despite the families medical history. The bottom line is in my opinion based on 14 years researching is that:
1. Vaccines work for MOST people and animals, most of the time with minor side effects.
2. Some people, and likely animals, have severe reactions to vaccinations. Most know nothing about this until tragedy strikes the family.
3. The vaccination companies are not financially liable for any damages. A law was passed in the mid 80's taking them off the hook. There is a gov't agency that awards $ to families with kids damaged by vaccines. 
4. Getting $ for care for your ruined kid is nearly impossible. You have to prove that it was the vaccine and generally WHAT vaccine did the damage. This is very difficult to do. Further complicating this is the very young age vaccines are given in the US (Japan waits until 2 years old for example). It is difficult to impossible to determine what vaccine caused a reaction because the children are infants. Usually it is just ruled that the kid was always this way. If you ever had doctors treat you like crap because you were a new parent this is the same thing only worse.
5. It is impossible to find the truth of the matter. There are anecdotal stories. However correlation does not equal causation. Many stories are probably NOT related to vaccines, but it is impossible to tell, and good luck getting a study approved to have a control group of people not get vaccinated. You have to try and figure things out on your own.

It is a frustrating topic to be sure. I wanted my kids vaccinated with single vaccines at older ages and only against certain life threatening diseases. I could care less about chicken pox vaccine. Better to get it them get a better perm immunity. 

So my doggie got her shots and my kids can't. Yes vaccines are a miracle drug IMHO. However they (pharmisudical companies, doctors, gov't) are not honest about side effects and when there is a problem peoples lives are ruined. I love my dog, but my kids more. There is actually more choice and common sense with the vets and animals than there are with people. There is more freedom with less legal regulations, but you have to take more responsibility yourself, something more and more people are unwilling to do.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

My dog had a *severe* reaction to the rabies vaccine. He still hasn't fully recovered from it but he's most of the way there.

He's not ever going to get another one.

But, depending on where I lived...I couldn't do this. Some laws are simply not enforced. Out here, having an unvaccinated dog (meaning, not up to date on rabies) is an infraction, not a criminal offense. So I pay a small fine (like $200) get him vaccinated, and no consequences.

If he bites while unvaccinated that's a bigger problem but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

The way I see it he is immune for life right now. Rabies is proven effective a minimum of seven years (and probably longer - but the study was designed to end after seven years). I'm not going to "follow the law" at the expense of my dog's health. If he did not react to it at all, then it wouldn't be a huge issue. But he does. Our state does not have a provision for exemptions. I will see if I can get my new vet to write him one anyway. Might make a difference if someone started caring about it.

I am so glad I made my old vet give him the 3 year. They tried to bully me into getting the 1 year (I fired them shortly thereafter, not JUST for that reason). The next time I have to start worrying about legal implications is when he is 4.5 years old.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So how can I tell if my dog got a 3 year or 1 year rabies vaccine? Or are they all 3 year now? Like it was stated, do they just last a long time without needing boosters or are there differences in length of affectiveness?


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

martemchik said:


> So how can I tell if my dog got a 3 year or 1 year rabies vaccine? Or are they all 3 year now? Like it was stated, do they just last a long time without needing boosters or are there differences in length of affectiveness?


It's the same shot, they are just labeled for different lengths of time. Your immune system determines the length of protection...not the shot.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Basu had a reaction to the rabies vaccine when he was 5. Before I adopted him (at age 4.5) he had been vaccinated every year.  I did not vaccinate him again but I ran titers, just for rabies, in order to get him licensed. The titers were $75 here and in Wisconsin. They are not cheap but worth it to avoid the vaccine. 

I tend to avoid new vaccines or vaccines that are for diseases that have multiple strains (like lepto).


----------

