# What do you expect when a child runs at your dog?



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I had an interesting incident yesterday. Ryka has never disliked children unless they're overly rambunctious. Just the other week a young girl asked if she could pet her, and Ryka was so very sweet with her.

But yesterday was different. I was on a walk with my SIL and her dog and a young girl came running towards us as fast as she could without saying anything. I assumed she was running to the bench to grab something near us, but she bee-lined straight for the dogs. As she got close, she put her hand out to try and pet our dogs without asking. My SIL shouted that the dogs were not friendly (they are, but we've agreed not to let strangers pet our dogs on walks). The girl continued to try and get close. I pulled Ryka near me and tried to educate her on how to approach dogs, but she kept trying to get close. Ryka barked, warned her off, and the girl still continued to approach, so Ryka stepped up, barked more, and grabbed the front pocket of the girl's hoodie. It was a quick nip and let go - a warning nip - and she didn't grab anything other than the fabric. I gave a quick, hard correction to have her sit quietly, but it took me by complete surprise because it happened so quickly and she has never done that before. The young girl thought nothing of it, in fact she laughed. I was horrified. To put the kid's behaviour in perspective, her younger brother came running towards us shortly after and asked if he could hold our dogs' leashes as if it were a totally normal thing to do.

Is that a normal reaction given the situation? Ryka has been good with children, and often she's the confident one that's happy to be engaged with once she's done sniffing. We have young kids come to our club, and whenever they come she licks their faces or happily interacts with them. She's never behaved that way before, but recently during bite work when the helper went to run his hand over her head during the bite, she let go to try and grab his hand when he did it a third time. The two incidences happening so closely together threw me off a bit, and I'm probably over thinking it, but I don't want to risk Ryka ever biting someone if it isn't in self-defense.

Thoughts?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I would guess that your emotion and reactions to the child fueled Ryka's defensiveness. Your dog may have understood that you wanted the child to stop and probably was bothered by the kid's disobedience. "Hey Kid, Mom Said NO! Stop" 

My gal-dog does not like strangers forcing themselves on her, no matter the size. My big-boy is very forgiving but I won't take it for granted that he might not put the big paw of knock-it-off on a child if he gets overwhelmed. I step in front of my dogs and put a hand out and say STOP. Nothing else, just stop. From there, maybe I'll teach the child about dog manners but only if the kids is showing self-control in the first place. If they have that wild child look in their eyes I'll talk to them from a distance even if it means turning around and leaving. 

One thing I often tell kids, "how would you like strangers touching you on the head all the time?"


and a question: why would the helper be patting your dog's head during a bite? I've never seen anyone do that. Maybe while holding a dumbbell calmly but not while working a sleeve. I have seen a helper simulate wrestling with a quick hug but not head petting.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

+1 car2ner


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I would be surprised, given the situation you described, for the dog not to react that way! Who raises kids like that? Either way, I would definitely step in front of and stop any child approaching in that manner, because in the end if a bite or even a nip does happen it's always the dog's fault! But again, I don't fault the dog for the reaction, the parents of those out of control children on the other hand might benefit from some parenting classes...jeez!

I had to jump in front of a lady and her little poodle the other day because she thought it would be fun to introduce her dog to mine while my dog was in the car (it's a van and the back hatch was open). Some people just don't get that all dogs are not always friendly...


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, stressful!

We have kids run at us fairly frequently and like car2ner, I found that the “Stop” gesture with my hand held out, has always worked up to now. 

To tell you the truth, if somebody ignored the STOP gesture and kept trying to pet him, he would growl. I am beginning to realize that for my dog, there is a long way between the growl and the bite ( that is, he growls readily but has never bitten). Sadly, I don’t usually let kids pet, because they are so unpredictable! My angelic sweet niece, when she first met a cat...she suddenly in great excitement grabbed it by its face! Known, educated kids are welcome to pet...like my daughters friends.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

car2ner said:


> I would guess that your emotion and reactions to the child fueled Ryka's defensiveness. Your dog may have understood that you wanted the child to stop and probably was bothered by the kid's disobedience. "Hey Kid, Mom Said NO! Stop"
> 
> My gal-dog does not like strangers forcing themselves on her, no matter the size. My big-boy is very forgiving but I won't take it for granted that he might not put the big paw of knock-it-off on a child if he gets overwhelmed. I step in front of my dogs and put a hand out and say STOP. Nothing else, just stop. From there, maybe I'll teach the child about dog manners but only if the kids is showing self-control in the first place. If they have that wild child look in their eyes I'll talk to them from a distance even if it means turning around and leaving.
> 
> ...


+1 to this. Your dog realized something was off. Totally understandable!

I hate hate hate parents who don’t teach their kids to interact with pets well. I have two cats that are scarred for life with kids because my roommate had a friend over who let their kid run at the cats making loud noises and even into my room where they were hiding when I was home. The parents are at fault and your dog was fine IMHO.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If this happens you don't want to wait another second before you step in front of the dog. I have done that a few times, also with idiots who think that their dog needs to "say hi" and continue to come closer.
You see the kid or dog coming and you have to assume that they are heading for your dog so being proactive will be best. it doesn't make people happy or friendly towards you but I don't care. My job is to prevent my dog to be in the paper or in the pound to be quarantined or a kid from getting bitten. Every incident can erode the dog's stability towards kids or dogs.
I understand your dog though. She knew something was out of the ordinary. Deja doesn't like dogs that are out of control in a class either. She observes them from a distance and I can hear her thinking, "Somebody do something about him!".


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

mmm, i’m in the minority here. i don’t know your dogs history or age, but from a presumed level headed / sound adult dog that has typically been good with children, i personally would not call that a normal reaction. in a new (unknown), young, or fearful dog i’d take the necessary steps / attempts to intervene... if those attempts weren’t productive and the dog reacted that way - i’d still be disappointed but not surprised and i’d definitely have some words with the parents.

my dogs are out with me often and there’s a chance that i could encounter a kid daily... i’m counting on my dogs to recognize that a child is not a threat. (and aside from a threat or in play -with me-, there’s no other circumstances that i’d be ok with my dogs mouth closing on any part of a person)

but hey, we do the best we can right? you’ve got some additional information about your girl now.... you’re here asking for insight... it’s all you can do at this point.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

what has Ryka done in the past when kids have been overly rambunctious?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Fodder said:


> what has Ryka done in the past when kids have been overly rambunctious?




Whenever kids are overly rambunctious (we had a whole bunch of guests over once), as in running around screaming and jumping on furniture, she gets overly excited and barks and play bows and jumps back and forth then tries to rough house them. It unsettles the kids. 

There have only been two times when Ryka has growled at children aside from this, both which I thought were acceptable. Once was in a store when a kid came running at her from behind and tried to grab her without her knowing (I was talking with a staff member and she was in a sit beside me). She didn’t bite or bark. Just stiffened and growled, then moved away. I found that to be acceptable behaviour. The second time was during Halloween when we went for a walk and a kid in a full on body costume and mask ran towards her from across the street yelling about petting her with his mom chasing after him telling him to stop. She sat and gave one bark, I told her to stop and we went on our way. To me, that’s perfectly fine. 

Every other interaction has been calm and positive when the kids have approached appropriately. Face licks, belly rubs, bum scratches, the like. She’s never been mean to kids before this.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

car2ner said:


> I and a question: why would the helper be patting your dog's head during a bite? I've never seen anyone do that. Maybe while holding a dumbbell calmly but not while working a sleeve. I have seen a helper simulate wrestling with a quick hug but not head petting.



It isn’t like a normal pet or pat, rather it’s in the midst of acting out a stick hit. He pretends to do the motion of a stick hit, then strokes the dog’s head shortly after in a quick motion. He did it twice, she was fine both times, then when he went to do it a third time she let go and went for the hand.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I agree with Car2ner that your reaction/SILs reaction may have influenced Ryka. If you guys were reacting and perhaps frustrated etc. she may have fed off of that tension. 



My female GSD is very friendly. I had a kid run up behind me while I was at a store and hug her. She was calm and extremely happy to get attention, his mom ran up and apologized and told him he should ask first. But he's young enough that well, I don't really expect them to fully get it at that age. Had that happened with my other dog while I don't think she would have bitten she certainly would've been startled and reacted fearfully. So different dogs different reactions. 

.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Kazel said:


> I agree with Car2ner that your reaction/SILs reaction may have influenced Ryka. If you guys were reacting and perhaps frustrated etc. she may have fed off of that tension.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Was your dog aware of the attention coming or did it come as a total surprise? I would love it if Ryka were completely friendly or neutral to strangers, especially in those situations. But she’s always assessing people and thinking about what they’re doing unless I ask her to focus on me.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Femfa said:


> Was your dog aware of the attention coming or did it come as a total surprise? I would love it if Ryka were completely friendly or neutral to strangers, especially in those situations. But she’s always assessing people and thinking about what they’re doing unless I ask her to focus on me.



Shelby was surprised as well. Honestly though I wouldn't expect a german shepherd or most dogs to be unphased in that sort of situation. I wish Shelby was a bit more reserved. She was getting a lot better when I was working with her but she would choke herself trying to go say hi to people. Her previous owners that abused her, their reason for getting rid of her is that she was too friendly.


It sounds like your dog reacted well to the surprised situation all things considering because there are definitely dogs that would have bit. I think your dog sounds a lot like what you'd expect from a GSD, watching and waiting to see what's up and acting friendly if the people are in the clear from what you've explained. Or I guess, does she seem uneasy or on edge when she's assessing as in she's nervous or more just she's keeping an eye on things?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

She just watches what people do. If she’s in a long down, her head is always up and she watches what’s happening, for example. If we’re out for a walk, she likes to watch what they’re doing. If they approach and smile, she wags her tail and likes to sniff them if she’s allowed. If I don’t allow it, she wags her tail regardless and we continue on. 

There’s definitely times when I can sense nervous energy from her, but during those times it’s a very different behaviour. Ears back, panting, etc.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think the your sister n laws and your reaction fueled her reaction also. She picked up on your energy and to placing boundaries . Giving her instruction she will learn what’s expected of her during something like that “ leave it “or “sit and then stay” while body blocking or continues walking full steam ahead whichever fits.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I would be super careful if I were you. Work on a very clear, concise, loud STOP. Hand out. Use your "kid is about to run in front of a moving car" voice.

How old were said kids? That would matter to me. When is a kid not a child to a dog? Who knows. Some 12 year olds look like adults. The under say age 6 crowd? Even your "stop" might not work. Not to mention the sheer percentage of kids with ASD around these days. Impulsively defines them very often.

At the end of the day, even if the kid was off the reservation, kicked you in the shin to get past you to your dog that is out in public, and your dog breaks skin or bruises them...you will be deemed at fault for having an unsafe dog in public without a muzzle or something of that nature. And especially these days, society has been edging more and more towards feeling entitled to "safe" spaces even in the face of Darwin worthy negligence. 

The thing about your dog attempting to bite the helpers hand? Well I am not qualified to say anything beyond if that was my dog, it would bring me to the conclusion my dog was wiling to bite for real regardless of what it is rooted in. It could be based in civility which is desired by some handlers or a nerve issue. Can't say but ..just know your dog has a willingness to connect that way with someone. I'd defer to some of the more experienced protection sport handlers to weigh in on dogs who go for the helper's stick hand.

As for "is it normal" IDK there seems to be a wide range of normal depending on what the dog is bred to do with his lines. If a man grabbed my dog after I said stop, it would escalate. A strange child can run up to him and love on him though, his face softens when he sees happy kids running towards. I still dont allow it. But I dont feel he would bite a child (there is no such things with living creatures that is "sure" or even near 100% which is why I don't allow it) if I didn't see it coming.If I felt my dog was at risk for biting wayward kids (that I would like to punt by the way-but we cant go around doing that) I would probably work on some muzzle training for public outings. I know nobody likes to hear that, but sometimes for the safety of your dog...and they hate the muzzle once use to it far less than people do. *I am NOT saying to muzzle train your dog now- *let a breed savvy trainer assess and make those decisions..just keep it in the back of your mind as a possible solution down the road. 

*edited to add because to be fair- my dog was raised in a home with kids of a an age span until 5.5 months old- then I got him and I have every kid in the neighborhood in and out. I dont know how much that has contributed to his softness towards children as opposed to his defensiveness towards adult. Nature VS Nurture who knows.

The hardest part is there is no ethical way to work on these things with kids. An adult can agree to help you train/analyze/desensitize at their own risk, but a child can not and you would be hard pressed to get parents with kids who do not know your dog to help you out there. 

If you belong to a club I'd get a recommended private trainer for this.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I also reread your post and agree with others that your reaction and your SILs could have put her even more on edge. I know, easier said than done when a kid comes barreling into your dog's face. Shouting, pulling on the lead, definitely can cause a dog agitation. 

When I see kids running up, I just tell him to sit. Then I release him to say hi. He has an expectation of how greeting goes, it has helped immensely with his defense drive towards grown strangers. He is pretty friendly if an adult is appropriate with him. 

Also though, in your post you said good with kids "unless rambunctious" what happens historically if they are rambunctious? I imagine that is what made you reactive when you were suddenly faced with a strange rambunctious child. I think clarifying that bit may help get you relevant input


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My default is a Sit, but I never let anyone run at my dog. If I see it coming, I will shout STOP before they ever get near us. My younger one loves children and would not likely react to badly one, but still, I never know what a child will do to him, so I keep strangers away. My younger dog is smaller and has a puppy look so people think she’s younger than she is. Last summer we were at a fair and a little girl, maybe 7 years old, ran by, turned and screamed in her face. It happened so fast, all I could do was get mine out of there fast. She is not a biter and would not even growl at a child, but my dog was scared and darted behind me and nearly pulled me with her. Fortunately, I had a good hold on a short leash because of the crowds so I turned, pushed her safely behind me and calmed her, but I was extremely annoyed. I almost shouted something at the mom, who thought her child was being cute, because by then they were too far for a quiet conversation. I decided to ignore it because taking care of my dog was most important and the mom didn’t seem like someone who would listen anyway. That dog is a rescue and is not warm to strangers and that didn’t help at all. She was a little nervous after that so we went home. It totally ruined my day. She has been going to street fairs and outdoor markets with me since she was a puppy and I never had a single problem with her or anyone else until that day.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

CometDog said:


> Also though, in your post you said good with kids "unless rambunctious" what happens historically if they are rambunctious? I imagine that is what made you reactive when you were suddenly faced with a strange rambunctious child. I think clarifying that bit may help get you relevant input


...


Femfa said:


> Whenever kids are overly rambunctious (we had a whole bunch of guests over once), as in running around screaming and jumping on furniture, she gets overly excited and barks and play bows and jumps back and forth then tries to rough house them. It unsettles the kids.
> 
> There have only been two times when Ryka has growled at children aside from this, both which I thought were acceptable. Once was in a store when a kid came running at her from behind and tried to grab her without her knowing (I was talking with a staff member and she was in a sit beside me). She didn’t bite or bark. Just stiffened and growled, then moved away. I found that to be acceptable behaviour. The second time was during Halloween when we went for a walk and a kid in a full on body costume and mask ran towards her from across the street yelling about petting her with his mom chasing after him telling him to stop. She sat and gave one bark, I told her to stop and we went on our way. To me, that’s perfectly fine.
> 
> Every other interaction has been calm and positive when the kids have approached appropriately. Face licks, belly rubs, bum scratches, the like. She’s never been mean to kids before this.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I missed the jumping and play bowing. Me bad. I've been trying to sit and read enjoyable things for me at a clip with a household of kids and a new puppy lol Sorry I didn't read it better.

I guess my point is, keep an eye on the growling see if it keeps happening or looks like it might escalate. She nipped the kids jacket. Reason is kids are out of control, even more so these days in higher numbers it seems. It will be seen as your fault bringing a dog that would bite a kid to public places where you are likely to encounter them. It's not at all fair, but most society will say kids will be kids.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

You reprimand the child? Sorry...I couldn't help myself. It's the first thing that came to mind in response to the title of your post.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

crittersitter said:


> You reprimand the child? Sorry...I couldn't help myself. It's the first thing that came to mind in response to the title of your post.




Hahaha I don’t blame you. They were around the ages of 5-7. Somewhere between there. Young enough to not really know any better and to not quite have that learned impulse control. 

Today at club our club member had her one child there who is 4. He was running around with his Spider-Man hoodie up, and even had his HotWheels bike that made the engine revving sounds. He ran by and close to Ryka multiple times when she was in her long down, and Ryka didn’t care. She watched him of course, but she never broke her down because of him. No aggressive or worried behaviour, either. He even ran along behind the fence within inches to where she was on the other side, and she was fine with it. I had her tied to the fence post just in case, but I was far away and she was fine. 

I think the trigger was the fact that someone ran up towards me, both my SIL and I gave off “don’t approach us/we don’t like this” vibes, and Ryka acted on it. Because that’s two different extremes to me. I would definitely prefer that Ryka looks to me before doing those behaviours next time, rather than thinks and acts on her own. So it’s something we’ll work on. 

As for suggestions with the muzzle, I muzzle trained her from when she was a puppy just in case I ever needed it. I don’t think she’s the kind of dog that does at this time. Her dam is known to consistently produce dogs that are successfully placed in LE, so it’s something for me to reflect on how that might impact her decision making process. However, if things ever escalate from here, I will have her professionally assessed by a behaviourist and see what management and changes we might need to make. I don’t believe it will come to it, but I’m not narrow minded enough to think my dog is above others who need that type of help.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have a large, formidable dog, and she won't get a pass if she makes even a reasonable mistake. Therefore, you have to protect your dog. So you need to be on the lookout for children. No, you cannot expect parents to teach their children proper doggie etiquette. In some places if your dog bites a child, anyone really, severely, the court can choose to put your dog down. And even if you can convince the court not to put the dog down, the dog can be labeled dangerous, and you will have to jump through hoops, like keeping an liability policy on the dog, a six-foot kennel, and a muzzle when the dog is off the property. 

So it can be a big deal. And even if you are able to keep your dog, you might find that impossible when your home-owner's insurance drops you and you cannot get another policy without getting rid of the dog. If you have a loan on your house, you might not be able to keep your dog. So, it's a big deal. 

If we try to hold the dog back with the leash, that can increase the tension of the situation and make the dog more likely to bite. When you see children running toward you, put your dog on a SIT STAY, and step in front of your dog. Practice SIT and STAY and DOWN and STAY regularly. 

When in front of your dog, tell the child to STOP. Do not raise your voice or act frantically or your dog's tension will increase. Instead use a low commanding voice. Kids like dogs are more likely to listen to controlled, low, stern no-nonsense command of a voice than a loud voice or a high voice, a voice filled with anxiety, or a shriek or a questioning voice. Practice if you must. Use a voice that expects obedience. 

If a child runs up to you with dogs, or tries to pet your dog without asking first, say no. It is good to use it as a teaching moment. Have it handy in your brain a short, simple phrase or sentence that explains what they should not have done. Kid running up CAN I PET YOUR DOG. You have the dog seated, standing in front of the dog, "STOP, No. You should never run up to a dog you do not know." Kid comes up and tries to pet the dog with out asking. The dog is seated behind you, "STOP, You need to ask the owner if you want to pet the dog." Do not allow it. 

If a child approaches without running and asks if they may pet your dog, The dog is seated by your side. You have to make a decision. If the child has a bicycle, or is with a bunch of kids, or even if your pup has had enough encounters today, you can say something like, "I'm sorry, he is in training and he's had too much excitement already today." If you are ok with it, then you can tell the child to offer their hand showing them how, tell them to let the dog come to them and to scratch the dog under the chin. I often tell my dogs to "SAY HELLO." Some dogs want to be petted, others are happy to get a whiff and a little scratch under the chin and that's enough. I bring it to a close by saying, "Thank you for helping me socialize him properly." 

Don't worry about irritating parents. It is your dog, and while we want our dogs bomb-proof around children, we also want to give them the opportunity to become bomb-proof around children, and that means setting the dog up to succeed. That could mean ensuring the socialization experiences are positive.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If the dog takes cues from you as they a perceptive breed and should - it is important to remain calm especially in young dogs learning. Instructions to the dog also dissipate worry from the dog as you are telling them how you want them to behave in a given situation if things get murky and unclear to the dog. I would just make sure when out in a unfamiliar and not engaged setting how well the correction worked and see how comfortable she is in a a similar scenario if occurs and have a plan regardless. I look at the dog in front of me regardless of where they are from and never make those assumptions. It’s a jungle out there it’s where all the the real life tests take place lol! 

Also playful mouthiness , jumping can be easily happen with rambunctious energy and be misinterpreted by the parent.

When I stopped having kids pet my dogs lol! a young kid was all over Luna at pet co the child was around 4 and the father asked is she can let her and I said yes. She was all over Luna and then I said okay bye and we walked away the kid followed us all over the store and the dad just walked away. If I remember right I had to hunt the father down and tell him no more. At the park young two kids ran up and one wrapped there neck around Max’s neck and the other around his hips. They were so fast I did not even see the second kid. I told them in calm way not to go up to strange dogs as the parent was about 6 feet away and said not a word. I did not get angry and I did not yell. Max was fine he wanted to play Max got lots of praise from me. At a play ground one can expect that but now I am more watchful. For the most part parents watch their kids but it takes seconds for the kid to do their own thing. I had a young kid run after us as we walked through the park and parents scream and yell for them to stop and chase their young kids in a fury. We just kept walking. I learned from loose dogs that would charge us on walks that if I yell or scream stop and get heated my dogs will follow suit if not told otherwise when they were learning the rules of life.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> She was all over Luna and then I said okay bye and we walked away the kid followed us all over the store and the dad just walked away. If I remember right I had to hunt the father down and tell him no more. At the park young two kids ran up and one wrapped there neck around Max’s neck and the other around his hips. They were so fast I did not even see the second kid. I told them in calm way not to go up to strange dogs as the parent was about 6 feet away and said not a word. I did not get angry and I did not yell. Max was fine he wanted to play Max got lots of praise from me. At a play ground one can expect that but now I am more watchful. For the most part parents watch their kids but it takes seconds for the kid to do their own thing. I had a young kid run after us as we walked through the park and parents scream and yell for them to stop and chase their young kids in a fury. We just kept walking. I learned from loose dogs that would charge us on walks that if I yell or scream stop and get heated my dogs will follow suit if not told otherwise when they were learning the rules of life.


Good job Luna and you! I have stopped letting kids pet Deja. She needs to ignore them, which goes really well. Whenever I have a young pup I 'idiot-proof' it by gentle pulling on ears, tighter than normal hugs etc. That paid off big time when I took my big adult mutt to a garden nursery and an employee squealed in over-drive, "Oh, a puppyyyyyy!" and hugged him without my permission. The dog was calm and almost oblivious due to idiot proofing when he was tiny. I don't get it when people do this; he looked like a blond Rottweiler! I think it is crucial for any pup to learn this as they can always encounter someone without dog-sense.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I had posted a few months ago...a group of middler schoolers came charging at my dog screaming AWWWWWWWWW! with their arms outstretched. About 4 girls. I was walking past the grammar school which didn't let out for another half hour.

I put this post in our town parents page on FB. This is a cut and paste:

"Hey parents, just a heads up. It seems people teach the little ones to ask before petting strange dogs..but it is worth reinforcing even at the Middle School level.

I was walking up to Jefferson to meet my Middle School kid with my dog. About 4 MS kids, girls, starting yelling awwwwww and rushed him with open arms. I yelled at them to stop and told them it was dangerous to do that to dogs (also rude too..a lot of dogs are afraid of getting rushed)

He is a 92 lb German Shepherd wearing a prong training collar. Nothing about this dog screams "rush me love me even if I dont know you"

Fortunately he is extremely well trained and is very neutral/aloof to people he does not know, and he does like little kids...had that been an adult he would have become protective as many dogs would. Or frightened. Some dogs are very frightened of strangers. He is well trained, but many are not.

Plus, regardless, it just isn't great etiquette, it is in fact very rude and intrusive.

ALSO OF NOTE I specifically know of another large German Shepherd often walked around town who would bite if rushed.

I think it is just something that bears friendly mentioning.

If someone's kid mentioned getting yelled at by a lady for trying to say hi to a dog, this is what they rushed at like they just made a world cup soccer goal, arms out and all lol

(insert picture of Valor)"

The responses I received were mostly in agreement, but plenty were of the mentality of "if your dog is a basket case that would bite a child keep him in your yard and out of the public" Which REALLY chaps my you know what. I can see putting those restrictions on a dog that lunges at people for merely walking by. But a dog that does not like to be touched by strangers but is otherwise safe SHOULD have all the same rights as an uber friendly dog.

It is also no small coincidence that the people who felt my dog should be bombproof or stay home have the KIDS in town that should really be kept in the yard only. Sorry, not sorry lol

Small town, people know everything about you and your kids.

There genuinely is a guy with a large similar looking GSD in town that is nasty. The guy had to stop and be a tree in order to let people pass with his dog barking on the end of a lead. And he waits until you are close too...stays perfectly still until he thinks you are within close distance even when you do not have a dog with you. They better not rush and surprise that dog.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Um, okay but neither of my Goldens would have bit any kid who ran at them in any manner. They wouldn't have bit the kids, it would have been fine. I think that is how the general public (including kids) thinks dogs act. 

I am starting to realize that Jupiter has a completely different temperament. He is just naturally more bitey and less accepting of people and dogs than the Goldens were. He's been through puppy obedience, obedience 1, and now is in obedience 2, has been extensively socialized with adults, kids, and dogs, but he's still pretty unpredictable. Of course he is only 7 months or so and has been cooped up because of an injury, but he's obviously just wired different than the calm and accepting kind of dogs. Perhaps with training and maturation he'll become much more tractable, but we didn't do anything with the Goldens to make them that way.

When he was just a few months old, I used to take him to the park with my daughter. At first, he accepted kids petting him, but after a month or two, he would sometimes nip at them and I realized he couldn't be trusted around him. And of course the kids think he's a big stuffie and is cute, and they want to hug him or kiss him. Experience shows that they don't obey me when I tell them how I act. Therefore it's on me to keep him away from kids.

I always wondered how GSDs could be #2 in AKC registrations when I never see them walking around. Is this why I never see them, because they're hard to control?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

People should raise their kids in a way that they listen and can be calm in an environment where there are dogs. Too many excuses for kids' behaviors lately. Teachers retire because many kids are out of control in classrooms. But we have to realize that our dogs, esp. the GSDs, will always get the blame.
So whenever there is a child 'on the loose' I have to assume he/she will not listen to the parent so I will protect Deja.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

En general, no GSD's are not hard to control, but they have higher defense and offense drives then a golden or lab, and that is ok. That is what they are bred for.. Unfortunately, stupidity and the lack of self restraint and common sense is gone in the younger generations and a strong self entitlement is in place. They feel it is their right to do what they please and your fault if they are hurt.. This makes owning a more powerful breed a dangerous place... But it can be thwarted
. 
I do believe that the I initial reaction triggered the dogs instinctive protection reaction. Good judgment kept from going further and getting worse. Still, it does fall on us to be less politically correct and more strenuously adamant that people abide by a common sense code of conduct and approach upon request and permission.. 

My dogs are SAR dogs and exposed to the public and extreme circumstances as common place... Still, I have to be on top of things as one never knows what the 'trigger' is for any given dog until it happens...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > She was all over Luna and then I said okay bye and we walked away the kid followed us all over the store and the dad just walked away. If I remember right I had to hunt the father down and tell him no more. At the park young two kids ran up and one wrapped there neck around Max’s neck and the other around his hips. They were so fast I did not even see the second kid. I told them in calm way not to go up to strange dogs as the parent was about 6 feet away and said not a word. I did not get angry and I did not yell. Max was fine he wanted to play Max got lots of praise from me. At a play ground one can expect that but now I am more watchful. For the most part parents watch their kids but it takes seconds for the kid to do their own thing. I had a young kid run after us as we walked through the park and parents scream and yell for them to stop and chase their young kids in a fury. We just kept walking. I learned from loose dogs that would charge us on walks that if I yell or scream stop and get heated my dogs will follow suit if not told otherwise when they were learning the rules of life.
> ...


Yeah having kids help with much proofing to which I know helps. there a lot of people think all dogs love all I had strangers not only pet but bear hug get down in hands and knees to wrestle. I see a lot of people like to get right into a dogs’ face a few times. I had some almost try to swallow my chihuahua up. Life is easier just to say no and it became easier the more I said it -as it sure seems to be a different world now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CactusWren said:


> Um, okay but neither of my Goldens would have bit any kid who ran at them in any manner. They wouldn't have bit the kids, it would have been fine. I think that is how the general public (including kids) thinks dogs act.
> 
> I am starting to realize that Jupiter has a completely different temperament. He is just naturally more bitey and less accepting of people and dogs than the Goldens were. He's been through puppy obedience, obedience 1, and now is in obedience 2, has been extensively socialized with adults, kids, and dogs, but he's still pretty unpredictable. Of course he is only 7 months or so and has been cooped up because of an injury, but he's obviously just wired different than the calm and accepting kind of dogs. Perhaps with training and maturation he'll become much more tractable, but we didn't do anything with the Goldens to make them that way.
> 
> ...


Let's think about the breed of dogs you mentioned and how and for what they came to be. A Golden Retriever is a bird dog. Nothing wrong with that. They have the energy and ability to hunt with their owner. They were created for successful hunting, which means obedience in the field, and instinctive bird-dog behaviors, like hunting, pointing, setting, retrieving, flushing, etc. The Golden Retriever is the retrieving type. If they will flush a bird that's cool, I don't know. I do know that they are bred to be obedient even when doing what they were instinctively built to do. And they are bred to retrieve a bird without injuring it further, meaning they have a gentle soft mouth. At no point were they bred to protect the hunter from people or animals. That is just not in their job description. They are big like German Shepherds, but their down-ears and soft features generally do not instill fear in parents or children. That in an of itself probably prevents incidents. Will come back to that. 

The German Shepherd Dog was created at a time when farmers in Germany were not loaded with money. They needed a dog that would both herd sheep/cows, etc, and not bother the chickens and other farm animals, but would also protect the family and farm creatures from both man and beast. It IS in their job description to be suspicious of strangers, especially if they are acting nervous. The upright ears, large teeth, and interesting reputation of the German Shepherd Dog gives a LOT of people pause. They are fascinated by the breed, but a little afraid of it too. They want to be brave and they want to pet the magnificent creature, but they are also wondering if it will bite them. If I had a nickel for every time a stranger offered my dog their hand to smell and then ripped it back when the dog started to sniff the hand, I could probably buy something real. The dog is bred to be obedient and work with their owner, and to sometimes work independent of their handlers. 

I saw a early German tape/video from 1920s I think of a German Shepherd Police dog walking the beat. On its own. Finding a drunk man and alerting, not biting the dude, but his handler was able to come up on them and take over the situation. Interesting. The way the shepherd works sheep with a dog in the US is different in Germany. The dog in Germany has to move 200-300 sheep or more down a busy thoroughfare, keeping the sheep out of the road and out of the crops, to get to the grazing land. The numbers the dog is working makes it impossible for the dog to get a lot of support of a shepherd. 

Because of their trainability and intelligence, both Golden Retrievers and German Shepherds have been used for Seeing Eye dogs. They are different here too. The GR will do exactly what the blind person wants, every time. The German Shepherd may be more likely to employ disobedience when necessary, or even find a better route/way to do something. This can be good and bad. Also, most of the blind-person with seeing eye dog muggings happen when the seeing eye dog is a bird dog -- lab or Golden, and not a GSD. They are different creatures and made for different work. You can still see a lot of GSDs used for police work. GRs may be used for sniffing bombs, but rarely are they full-fledged police dogs (here in town we have had a Labrador as a police dog -- not impossible) it just isn't their forte. 

Now, when does a dog bite? A dog bites most often when they are afraid. When a dog is comfortable, and the people around it are comfortable, and no one is giving off any bad vibes, bites are not the norm. So, your GR is probably perfectly happy to have children run up to it, it is not in his job description to protect you or himself, the children are not nervous and probably the dog has enjoyed many of these scenes from puppy on up. The German Shepherd dog commands some respect, even from children. Children may run up to them, but probably a lot fewer over the year of upbringing than the friendlier-looking GR. Adults and children alike are a lot less nervous around the GR, so the GSD who has had fewer encounters of this sort, is now faced with tension often coming from the strangers, maybe from the children, and very possibly from its own owner, who has probably tightened the grip on the leash which immediately tells the dog, "it's going to get real." 

A child or adult who is not nervous around the dog, is going to offer their hand in a relaxed fashion that the dog will sniff and receive pets for. The owner is happy, and everything is fine. The child or adult that is nervous, you might think, will be slow and careful. Maybe some are. But when someone is scared, they are much more likely to shoot out there hand, take a swipe at the dog, and then pull their hand back quickly. What NOT to do. But that is what they WILL do. What self-respecting GSD is NOT going to try to grab something shooting toward it, probably toward the top of his head??? What self-respecting GSD is NOT going to go after a retreating hand, especially when he smells the fear all over the person??? It is actually pretty amazing that not more German Shepherds have left scars on people. 

Understanding the dynamics of the breed and the fear/reputation, what goes on, is helpful in setting your dog up to succeed. 

Don't think puppies are safe. They are not. Rushie was not more than 4 months old when a full grown, big man was scared to death of him. Dark shepherds, Black shepherds are often viewed as more likely to bite from folks that are afraid. Not sure why this is. Rushie was blanket back, that looked bi-color, and the sweetest dog ever. But everyone wanted to pet Babsy and Jenna, either of them who may have bitten giving cause, whereas Rushie was very unlikely and got a lot less requests. I think because he was much blacker. I've been lucky through the years. I have had a five year old run up and throw his arms around Cujo who was out with me, but lived with my parents. He didn't do anything, but if he did, it would have been tragic because I was trying to pay for something and didn't see the kid coming. I was paying for his grooming. So he had to be there. The kid's owners should have been whipped for letting her do that. I left before I let my mouth get me in trouble. 

We have chosen to own dogs that have protection, which includes biting humans, as a part of what they were bred for, so we have to be careful when we have them out. We cannot tarnish their reputation further than it is already. We need to be ultra-responsible with our dogs. We need to keep them safe.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The advice given here is excellent, but it’s from people with a lot of GSD experience who think quickly in a difficult situation. The average dog owner doesn’t watch their dog or their surroundings, so they are more likely to have an unexpected situation and to be unprepared to act correctly. I take full responsibility for the child screaming at my dog because I took two risks. I walked through a crowded area that was full of children rather than walk around because I was looking for someone. I was also not paying attention to my surroundings or to my dog. If I had been thinking about it, I would have not walked through that area. It’s not something I would do with my younger dog, so why would I protect him more than my older one? If I had been watching the people around me, I would have noticed the little girl darting all over and her mother ignoring her. I would have steered clear of her.

I had an interesting experience in pet store with my black dog. A man walked in while I was waiting for something with two dogs who were loosely leashed but all over the place. My dog observed for a while, then gave an “I’m here” bark when one dog approached us. I made him sit and he was calm and still observant but the other owner demanded I be removed from the store. I didn’t know at the time, and instead walked to the other end of the store. A woman kept coming up to me and telling me how scary my black dog was and why did he look like a German Shepherd. She would not leave me alone, so I explained briefly then walked away. She kept pestering us anyway and he finally barked at her when she lifted up an item and shook it at him to show me something. Yeah, that was weird. Again, a controlled bark. The store asked me to leave. I did and went back a week later to talk to the manager. The end result was that they had store video which they watched during that week and realized how well trained and well behaved my dog was and that both people and dogs were harrassing us, not the other way around. I got an apology and they kept a good customer. I learned a hard lesson. People don’t watch their dogs and always blame the GSD, especially the black one. People are not very dog savvy. Who goes up to a big dog they are afraid of multiple times even when the owner walks away? Who lets their dogs stare down someone else’s strange dog and approach them? Most important, do I want to put my dog into stressful situations where he even thinks he needs to bark? I did that. I didn’t plan to, but it happened anyway. He was exceptionally calm and looked up to me after he barked for guidance. But it had to be stressful enough that he barked. I don’t want my dog barking in public unless it’s an emergency and he usually doesn’t. So what do I do next time? I haven’t decided yet.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> The advice given here is excellent, but it’s from people with a lot of GSD experience who think quickly in a difficult situation. The average dog owner doesn’t watch their dog or their surroundings, so they are more likely to have an unexpected situation and to be unprepared to act correctly. I take full responsibility for the child screaming at my dog because I took two risks. I walked through a crowded area that was full of children rather than walk around because I was looking for someone. I was also not paying attention to my surroundings or to my dog. If I had been thinking about it, I would have not walked through that area. It’s not something I would do with my younger dog, so why would I protect him more than my older one? If I had been watching the people around me, I would have noticed the little girl darting all over and her mother ignoring her. I would have steered clear of her.


You can't have a bombproof dog without setting off some bombs >

Sure, learn from this to be more aware of your surroundings when your dog is with you out and about. But don't continually expect or even try to avoid situations like this, or how will you ever "know" your dog will be able to handle it? 




LuvShepherds said:


> I had an interesting experience in pet store with my black dog. A man walked in while I was waiting for something with two dogs who were loosely leashed but all over the place. My dog observed for a while, then gave an “I’m here” bark when one dog approached us. I made him sit and he was calm and still observant but the other owner demanded I be removed from the store. I didn’t know at the time, and instead walked to the other end of the store. A woman kept coming up to me and telling me how scary my black dog was and why did he look like a German Shepherd. She would not leave me alone, so I explained briefly then walked away. She kept pestering us anyway and he finally barked at her when she lifted up an item and shook it at him to show me something. Yeah, that was weird. Again, a controlled bark. The store asked me to leave. I did and went back a week later to talk to the manager. The end result was that they had store video which they watched during that week and realized how well trained and well behaved my dog was and that both people and dogs were harrassing us, not the other way around. I got an apology and they kept a good customer. I learned a hard lesson. People don’t watch their dogs and always blame the GSD, especially the black one. People are not very dog savvy. Who goes up to a big dog they are afraid of multiple times even when the owner walks away? Who lets their dogs stare down someone else’s strange dog and approach them? Most important, do I want to put my dog into stressful situations where he even thinks he needs to bark? I did that. I didn’t plan to, but it happened anyway. He was exceptionally calm and looked up to me after he barked for guidance. But it had to be stressful enough that he barked. I don’t want my dog barking in public unless it’s an emergency and he usually doesn’t. So what do I do next time? I haven’t decided yet.


It's awesome that the store cared enough to review the video! And at least from my point of view, your dog behaved perfectly! 

I had a similar experience at the vet recently. A GR came charging out around the reception desk as I was checking in, and my dog let out a single, loud bark that stopped the dog in its tracks (and all other activity in the office too, briefly LOL!). I told her enough, then come and we went and sat down far enough from the desk to let the GR and its owner pass, and then I praised my dog lavishly for her awesome behavior! I then had her stay there sitting while I walked back up and finished checking in.

The biggest difficulty for most people is learning to stay calm in these situations. But if you don't stay calm, your anxious feelings are clear to your dog and he'll act accordingly...can't fault the dog


Honestly, I want my dog to give a warning bark at a strange dog running up to us like that (or at some human acting odd like you described!). Whether you do or you don't though, it's never bad to expose your dog to stuff like that, it's a great training moment IMHO!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

While on walks, I stopped allowing strangers to pet my dogs a long time ago. It is amazing how few people know how to properly approach and pet a dog. I tend to keep moving along - in another direction, if necessary. That said, my dogs are kid/people safe. Although, Shelby did bark at a construction worker today who was singing loudly in Spanish. I guess she either couldn't understand the words, or didn't think he was a good singer.

As for kids, they will always be unpredictable. Some parents don't know enough about dogs, or dog etiquette to properly instruct their children. Even if taught, children forget. Some children have special challenges that make it more difficult for them to understand. It will always fall on us to protect our dogs. I do agree with others who feel your dog may have reacted to your responses.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I was actually feeling a little bummed about that aspect today. The spring weather is beautiful and I am going to go walking with a friend next week, and she wants me to bring Rumo. Practically the first thing I will have to say to her, is give that warning that he does not like petting from strangers....sigh. I mean, he likes certain people who behave in certain ways...but there are a few times when I reluctantly said yes, and then Rumo got a few hearty thumps on the head and growled at the person. I said yes to my client, and he grabbed Rumo playfully by both ears...that did not go over well, even though his own dog probably loves it! So short of giving a “tutorial 101 in animals”, sometimes it’s easier to just say he doesn’t like being petted by people he doesn’t know well.

I have never been growled at by other people’s dogs...ever since I was a kid, I had a sense about animals...I don’t impose myself on them unless they “ask me” ( I.e. a nose butt with a tail wag). If at somebody’s house I sit down and chat, and if their dog comes over, I will greet him. I always took this for granted - but I realized that a large number of people are “tone-deaf” when it comes to animals. They love animals, but don’t understand what the animal is saying with its body language, and are not patient enough to let an animal get to know them at its own pace.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Femfa said:


> Hahaha I don’t blame you. They were around the ages of 5-7. Somewhere between there. Young enough to not really know any better and to not quite have that learned impulse control.
> 
> Today at club our club member had her one child there who is 4. He was running around with his Spider-Man hoodie up, and even had his HotWheels bike that made the engine revving sounds. He ran by and close to Ryka multiple times when she was in her long down, and Ryka didn’t care. She watched him of course, but she never broke her down because of him. No aggressive or worried behaviour, either. He even ran along behind the fence within inches to where she was on the other side, and she was fine with it. I had her tied to the fence post just in case, but I was far away and she was fine.
> 
> ...


Not a fan of children, or adults, in general at the best of times. I muzzle Shadow anytime that we are likely to be near humans. Not because she is mean but because people are stupid far to often and lack common sense, common courtesy or respect for personal space. 
My theory is that if she is muzzled she cannot be blamed for anything and it has the added bonus of scaring all but the stupidest into giving us space.

Last week I had Shadow in her crate, in the truck with the door open while I was loading it. A grown man walked up to the truck and ignoring her barking and growling stuck his finger in her crate! Why would we expect these people to raise children who know better? 
Yes he got bit. He is also on camera coming out of his room and glancing at my room and walking directly to my open truck full of gear and the dog. He did it in full view of myself, two other guests, the maids and the motel owner who was furious with him.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GSDchoice said:


> I have never been growled at by other people’s dogs...ever since I was a kid, I had a sense about animals...I don’t impose myself on them unless they “ask me” ( I.e. a nose butt with a tail wag). If at somebody’s house I sit down and chat, and if their dog comes over, I will greet him. I always took this for granted - but I realized that a large number of people are “tone-deaf” when it comes to animals. They love animals, but don’t understand what the animal is saying with its body language, and are not patient enough to let an animal get to know them at its own pace.


:toasting:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I sold a dog 8 years ago, and 3 years later I sold a second dog to this person. She bred them together a few years later, and had a bunch of dogs. She started working with her dogs and many others of mine that she re-homed among her friends and work-acquaintances. 

What she does with my dogs, and the dogs she has rehomed to her friends/workers, is that they work with developmentally challenged people on how to walk the dogs, how to approach dogs and their owners. Some of the folks have trouble with self-control so learning how to approach and practicing it really helps them. It's cool that they use my dogs for this sort of thing. It's hard to measure non-events. But if even one of those folks do not get bitten because of what they have learned it is a success.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Well, I went for another walk today. Same as always. 

Once again, the young girl and her brother were along the path that we have taken every day for the past three years. I used all of the advice I was given - stern voice, very obvious “do not approach” hand language, and put Ryka in a sit behind me. Surprisingly - or maybe unsurprisingly? - she listened to none of it and kept approaching. I simply turned around and walked away. Ignored her completely and just walked in a different direction with my SIL and our dogs. That seemed to work. 

Thankfully, Ryka was her normal aloof self. No barking. No growling. Just watchful. And when I ignored the girl and went on our way, she was happy to follow alongside with me. So there’s that. She got plenty of praise and pats for that. 

Of course shortly after when we were walking along the strictly on-leash, bi-law sign riddled park, an off-leash dog charged at us. This is the third time this has happened in the past two weeks, each time a different dog. Ironically, the “sit, stay behind me while I sternly say NO and put my hand up” worked with the dog. He tucked tail and ran, though not towards his owner yelling after him... lol. 

I feel like the crazies are out. I’ve been doing this walk for two years with Ryka, and three with my SIL. We’ve rarely, if ever had these kinds of constant issues. Maybe once in a blue moon, but lately it’s basically once a week and goodness is it frustrating.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Femfa said:


> Well, I went for another walk today. Same as always.
> 
> Once again, the young girl and her brother were along the path that we have taken every day for the past three years. I used all of the advice I was given - stern voice, very obvious “do not approach” hand language, and put Ryka in a sit behind me. Surprisingly - or maybe unsurprisingly? - she listened to none of it and kept approaching. I simply turned around and walked away. Ignored her completely and just walked in a different direction with my SIL and our dogs. That seemed to work.
> 
> ...


Well, there is something you can do. You can approach your local school board and police department, with a suggestion that during a safety town-type pre-kindergarten program or a grade school demonstration, where police/school can use dogs (kids do pay attention when there is a dog present at school), to teach them to be safe. Schools SHOULD be teaching kids not to approach stray dogs or wild animals, not to approach a working police k9, not to approach a service dog, and HOW TO approach people with dogs. This should be taught in our public school systems as a matter of course. Far too many children have been attacked by dogs and need medical care for these attacks, and have lasting fears/phobias about dogs. 

So get the word out there. Make a suggestion that if your police department is going to do a demonstration for the kids, they can add a little blurb about how to approach and ASK permission to pet a dog.

ETA: And folks, please do your part, NEVER, under ANY circumstance, reward a child who does not ask to pet the dog, or who runs up to a dog, by letting them pet your dog. Put on your ugliest BITCH-face, your wicked Witch of the West face, and tell them No! If we continue to reward kids for being rude, they will never learn not to be.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Femfa said:


> Well, I went for another walk today. Same as always.
> 
> Once again, the young girl and her brother were along the path that we have taken every day for the past three years. I used all of the advice I was given - stern voice, very obvious “do not approach” hand language, and put Ryka in a sit behind me. Surprisingly - or maybe unsurprisingly? - she listened to none of it and kept approaching. I simply turned around and walked away. Ignored her completely and just walked in a different direction with my SIL and our dogs. That seemed to work.
> 
> ...


It is exhausting, isn't it? I had a Maltese hanging off my dog's face a few months ago. He broke door on his owner which can happen. Valor was good until the dog jumped at his face super aggressively, biting him for all it was worth. Valor gave him a warning roll without putting his teeth on him. Guy was charging down the street screaming. All in all a bad situation. Guy looked like he was sidling up to kick at Valor who was merely growling at his very aggressive toy breed. I turned to leave and the guy is shouting about having a dog like Valor that is aggressive..what if it was a child? WHAT??? Hold on. By this time the guy has his dog in his arms and I pointed out that a child generally wont be biting my dog on the face and that his dog was in fact the vicious one that was loose..what if his dog bit a child? Or chased it into the street? (which my own Chihuahua did in like 1970s and at a high school reunion recently the girl is STILL upset she has a big dent in her leg because my dog chased her into the street).

That is what I mean, right wrong or indifferent even a leashed GSD that is visibly pushed to the limit can be called dangerous if he defends himself. I keep meaning to put my GoPro on before or walks in town..but I also keep forgetting :/ 

And FUNNILY enough our Governor just signed into law that dogs can't be deemed vicious if they bite because they are defending their owner or themselves. The is so much other b.s tied into it though as per usual.. they are looking to prohibit putting dogs down for biting incidents and it also prohibits confiscated fighting dogs from being put down. He feels they should be rehabbed and adopted out to be the family dogs they were meant to be. Anyway, that doesn't belong here, sorry. Just the headline I woke up to. 

I am having one of those mornings where everything is annoying me lol


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Femfa said:


> Of course shortly after when we were walking along the strictly on-leash, bi-law sign riddled park, an off-leash dog charged at us. This is the third time this has happened in the past two weeks, each time a different dog. Ironically, the “sit, stay behind me while I sternly say NO and put my hand up” worked with the dog. He tucked tail and ran, though not towards his owner yelling after him... lol.


For that purpose I have trained Deja to immediately come back to me, when I blow a referee whistle as hard as I can for a few seconds; at the same time it has startled every dog so far and gave me the time to use this brief break to tell that dog "GO HOME!!" and pointing to where that is. I don't hesitate to do this anytime I see a dog coming at us who is not under voice control. I have stopped caring on opinions from their owners. It has even worked at the time when two Aussies came charging at us. So whenever in public I have a whistle ready. For Deja it means good treats so it doesn't startle her.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

CometDog said:


> It is exhausting, isn't it? I had a Maltese hanging off my dog's face a few months ago. He broke door on his owner which can happen. Valor was good until the dog jumped at his face super aggressively, biting him for all it was worth. Valor gave him a warning roll without putting his teeth on him. Guy was charging down the street screaming. All in all a bad situation. Guy looked like he was sidling up to kick at Valor who was merely growling at his very aggressive toy breed. I turned to leave and the guy is shouting about having a dog like Valor that is aggressive..what if it was a child? WHAT??? Hold on. By this time the guy has his dog in his arms and I pointed out that a child generally wont be biting my dog on the face and that his dog was in fact the vicious one that was loose..what if his dog bit a child? Or chased it into the street? (which my own Chihuahua did in like 1970s and at a high school reunion recently the girl is STILL upset she has a big dent in her leg because my dog chased her into the street).
> 
> That is what I mean, right wrong or indifferent even a leashed GSD that is visibly pushed to the limit can be called dangerous if he defends himself. I keep meaning to put my GoPro on before or walks in town..but I also keep forgetting :/
> 
> ...


I am angry for you. The worst aggression I have experienced is from small terrier type dogs. Their owners never once stop their dogs. One of the little nasties got a series of puncture bites from two Mountain dogs who are normally pretty mellow. I asked the owner of the little dog if her dog had been barking and aggressive when he was attacked and she said Probably. She wasn’t even paying attention.I’ve seen her dog and it’s small but very confrontational. Another friend has a Maltese that always goes after bigger dogs. Her dog tried to bite a medium sized dog that snapped at hers. My friend was bitten pulling her dog away. Six months later the story had changed to the medium dog being the aggressor. These are two very nice women who don’t have a clue about dog behavior. My dog was charged a year ago by a mixed rescue dog. Looked like a smallish fluffy designer blend. The owner stood there frozen while his dog stood in the middle of the street aggressing at mine. I finally shouted, Pick up your your dog! I don’t walk mine down the street anymore, because I’m tired of being chased or barked at. Then they wonder why mine barks back, if he does. Or by I am ignoring them to focus on keeping mine sitting and calm. I don’t think any of those people are mean or intentional, they just don’t understand dogs and probably should not own them.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

The parent or child caregiver should be the one that needs training.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

I was walking my dog in the street about 10 feet from the curbing. A little mutt that was loosed in the front yard came running at my GSD. My Nick did not respond but I did - almost made a field goal and the people knew that had not better say a thing.


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

Excerpt from my book, LIFE WITH OUR GERMAN SHEPHERDS:

"No Matter How Well You Know Your Dog, Sometimes They Surprise You

Remember a dog's a dog. No matter how much training your dog gets, there might well be a time when she or he doesn't respond to your command. I love to hike with my dogs. I enjoy being out in the woods miles from civilization. And I like to let the dog explore on his/her own. So I don't like to have the dog on a lead when we're hiking. And I know better than to walk the dog off lead. 


But I have in the past done exactly that. A number of excellent trainers have stated in their books that their dogs are never off their property off lead. Why? Because you just don't know what a dog's going to do one hundred percent of the time. Guess that this is something I'm going to have to work on too.

I know. You're sitting there thinking that you've had your dog for five years and you know exactly what the dog's going to do. I thought so too with Shalimar. I'd had her for either thirteen or fourteen years when disaster nearly struck. 

The previous week we had been to a German shepherd rescue picnic at a local park. Shali had attracted the attention of an eleven or twelve year old girl. She literally hung around and on Shali the entire afternoon, and Shali was just fine. I had Shali on a lead and was close at hand, but Shali seemed content with the love and affection she was getting. 

Shali even let the girl hang on her, something she wasn't use to and we generally avoided. But that Sunday, Shali was exceptionally patient, almost as if she knew that this girl had fallen in love with her.

The following weekend we were at an adoption day, and this woman with her toddler in hand came over to us. She asked if Shali was all right with kids. I had no sooner said that she was when Shali snapped at the toddler. 

Fortunately I had Shali on a short lead and the mother had a good grip on the toddler's arm. I was shocked. 
This was a dog I had had for well over a decade. She had never snapped at anyone, much less a child. I would have bet my life on Shali not trying to bite anyone. Nonetheless Shali had done exactly that. 

Maybe the toddler had bad breath. Maybe Shali didn't like the face-to-face "meeting". Maybe the child did what most kids do with dogs: she went to pat Shali on the head, a clear sign of dominance for a dog. I don't know what started that. But I do know that Shali and I would have been in deep trouble had she connected with the child. I guess I need to remember this incident when I think about unsnapping my dog's lead.

I've had dogs that I'm not one hundred percent certain of when it comes to kids. And whenever we'd be out walking and a child approach or anyone else for that matter, I'd always tighten the lead, bringing the dog close to me. Then I'd kneel down so that if the dog made a move I didn't like, I could get my hand in the between the dog and the child. 
If the parent does instruct the child on how to approach my dog, then I will take on the task, obviously handling it gently."


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## deedeearmstrong (Sep 5, 2018)

What parent would let their kids run up to a dog they don't know? And where were their parents? Although you were understandably upset, your dog was just doing a warning. I am sorry but I would have flipped out at the parents!?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I know this is an article you didnt write but...



rabsparks said:


> Excerpt from my book, LIFE WITH OUR GERMAN SHEPHERDS:
> 
> "No Matter How Well You Know Your Dog, Sometimes They Surprise You
> 
> ...


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

or maybe you did write it..my apologies for that oversight. I agree with it. Just wanted to point out that all toddlers have banging breath lol


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## clipke (Nov 14, 2017)

My dogs sit and wait till I give the kid permission to pet them(I hope they ask lol). They really enjoy attention from small humans. They're protective of me around adults though.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

*people/kid aggression*

and the poor dog/owner is always at fault=kids need to be punished and stupid people slapped. ALL DOGS BITE SOMETIME IN THEIR SHORT LIVES


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> My default is a Sit, but I never let anyone run at my dog. If I see it coming, I will shout STOP before they ever get near us. My younger one loves children and would not likely react to badly one, but still, I never know what a child will do to him, so I keep strangers away. My younger dog is smaller and has a puppy look so people think she’s younger than she is. Last summer we were at a fair and a little girl, maybe 7 years old, ran by, turned and screamed in her face. It happened so fast, all I could do was get mine out of there fast. She is not a biter and would not even growl at a child, but my dog was scared and darted behind me and nearly pulled me with her. Fortunately, I had a good hold on a short leash because of the crowds so I turned, pushed her safely behind me and calmed her, but I was extremely annoyed. I almost shouted something at the mom, who thought her child was being cute, because by then they were too far for a quiet conversation. I decided to ignore it because taking care of my dog was most important and the mom didn’t seem like someone who would listen anyway. That dog is a rescue and is not warm to strangers and that didn’t help at all. She was a little nervous after that so we went home. It totally ruined my day. She has been going to street fairs and outdoor markets with me since she was a puppy and I never had a single problem with her or anyone else until that day.


 I would have been the person you heard accross the fair grounds screaming in those most mean voice BACK OFF YOU STUPID BRAT- DONT YOU DARE ATTACK MY DOG !!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

clipke said:


> My dogs sit and wait till I give the kid permission to pet them(I hope they ask lol). They really enjoy attention from small humans. They're protective of me around adults though.


So where does your dog draw the line 'kid vs adult'? 
What does "Protective of me around adults" mean to you?


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

I had Shali every bit of thirty years ago when I was younger and "stupid". Now with the change in the GSD dogs, we have rescue dogs and every dog goes out in "public" with a muzzle on. And yes I wrote that book. As they say, "Hindsight is always twenty-twenty".


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dojoson41 said:


> I would have been the person you heard accross the fair grounds screaming in those most mean voice BACK OFF YOU STUPID BRAT- DONT YOU DARE ATTACK MY DOG !!!


I might have if I hadn’t controlled myself. We run the risk of getting dogs banned. Parents with children spend a lot of money at fairs. Parents of dogs don’t. But I thought it. I love children. I don’t like every parent, though. In a previous career I worked with disabled children and the biggest problems I ever had came from parents, never the children. When a child that young misbehaves, it’s usually the parent’s fault for not training them or watching better. Kind of like with dogs.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

My friend brought her golden retriever to the playground a few times when our kids met there.
Talk about crazy kids...
there were kids running up to her and CLIMBING ON THE DOG'S BACK to play horsey. My friend would pull them off while saying, "She doesn't like that. And you're too heavy" etc. The kids would giggle and run away, but a few of them would run back and TRY AGAIN LATER. This golden retriever was a truly "golden" dog...just calmly hung out there on her leash. 
But what kid climbs on an unknown dog's back to ride on it?! I just couldn't believe it.
That's why I have not brought Rumo to a playground yet!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Not all dogs bite. The ones I have now have never bitten anyone.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> So where does your dog draw the line 'kid vs adult'?
> What does "Protective of me around adults" mean to you?


My dog draws the line at 13 1/2, unless they're tall, then it goes back to 13 even >

Kidding, of course! Teenagers are typically vetted by their demeanor with my dog. She's stable and aloof to most teenagers and adults, but kids she always likes! I think it's her mothering instinct. With little ones she's always very gentle and careful not to walk too close so as to knock them down. Older kids she watches for a minute before deciding...

Sorry for jumping in where a question was asked of someone else. But I related a story here not too long ago about a dog that bit me when I was 14, and it later came up and I said the dog had never bitten a child. Someone called me on that because 14 is considered still a child! I was 5'8" tall at that time and weighed around 150, so not "really" a child in the dog's eyes! It is an interesting question though, at what point does your dog view a kid as an adult...I'd say it goes by size first and demeanor second.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Femfa said:


> I had an interesting incident yesterday. Ryka has never disliked children unless they're overly rambunctious. Just the other week a young girl asked if she could pet her, and Ryka was so very sweet with her.
> 
> But yesterday was different. I was on a walk with my SIL and her dog and a young girl came running towards us as fast as she could without saying anything. I assumed she was running to the bench to grab something near us, but she bee-lined straight for the dogs. As she got close, she put her hand out to try and pet our dogs without asking. My SIL shouted that the dogs were not friendly (they are, but we've agreed not to let strangers pet our dogs on walks). The girl continued to try and get close. I pulled Ryka near me and tried to educate her on how to approach dogs, but she kept trying to get close. Ryka barked, warned her off, and the girl still continued to approach, so Ryka stepped up, barked more, and grabbed the front pocket of the girl's hoodie. It was a quick nip and let go - a warning nip - and she didn't grab anything other than the fabric. I gave a quick, hard correction to have her sit quietly, but it took me by complete surprise because it happened so quickly and she has never done that before. The young girl thought nothing of it, in fact she laughed. I was horrified. To put the kid's behaviour in perspective, her younger brother came running towards us shortly after and asked if he could hold our dogs' leashes as if it were a totally normal thing to do.
> 
> ...


Having not read any farther than your OP: I live in a super dog-friendly area, so she can go lots of places with me. We have great luck with places like hardware stores and a few taprooms I've identified, and less-good luck with certain taprooms (drunk parents + unsupervised kids = bad) or mall walking type things. I stopped going to the places in the latter category for the most part, because without fail, she gets rushed by some kid, and it isn't worth the risk. That being said, a free range toddler once rushed her left side during an outdoor training class when we were doing heeling exercises and I had no time or room to get out of the way. I yelled at the kid just to stop her cold.

My dog's reaction is basically nothing; she trusts me to handle it. If I have time, I will body block. If I don't have time to do anything but throw my voice, I will yell at kids. I'm not shouting abuse or anything, just using the tone of my voice to startle them and buying myself time to turn or stop them. Basically, though, I raise my voice to strange children in public a lot more than I ever thought anyone should. Surprisingly no parent has ever reacted to this. It almost makes me sad because they are invariably paying so little attention to their kid that they have no idea the kid just tried to rush a dog four times its size OR that they got yelled at by a strange lady for doing so.

My dog is kept close and controlled and I keep an eye on her at all times - but I would be very surprised if she ever reacted. At this point in our relationship, she understands that I will handle whatever happens and she will wait for me to do it.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> Having not read any farther than your OP: I live in a super dog-friendly area, so she can go lots of places with me. We have great luck with places like hardware stores and a few taprooms I've identified, and less-good luck with certain taprooms (drunk parents + unsupervised kids = bad) or mall walking type things. I stopped going to the places in the latter category for the most part, because without fail, she gets rushed by some kid, and it isn't worth the risk. That being said, a free range toddler once rushed her left side during an outdoor training class when we were doing heeling exercises and I had no time or room to get out of the way. I yelled at the kid just to stop her cold.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wish that method worked with the kid who approached Ryka. The following day she did the same thing, and the stern voice and body language did nothing to stop the kid. Ryka had zero reaction that time and I never let the kid get close by choosing to simply turn around and walk away. 

Moral of the story is that I never thought Ryka would act aggressively towards a child until she did. It was a bad combination of my stress and the child not respecting boundaries.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Femfa said:


> I wish that method worked with the kid who approached Ryka. The following day she did the same thing, and the stern voice and body language did nothing to stop the kid. Ryka had zero reaction that time and I never let the kid get close by choosing to simply turn around and walk away.
> 
> Moral of the story is that I never thought Ryka would act aggressively towards a child until she did. It was a bad combination of my stress and the child not respecting boundaries.


How stressful. I'm so sorry. I'd say parents need to educate their kids - and really, they should - but so many of the adults I see don't know the right way to approach a dog either. The difference is that most of them have the impulse control to stop and ask me - but they can't teach their kids what they haven't learned themselves.

It's a tough line to walk. I require my dog to handle herself around kids and likely couldn't keep a dog who wouldn't, but I live in a densely populated urban area with a ton of young families. I've had to learn a good, solid facade of ridiculous confidence; if I'm squared up and exuding authoritative energy, I can stop a kid in his/her tracks. I'm always surprised by how well it works, but something about me must make them not want to mess with me. It isn't about hating kids or being mean for fun. It's not mean. It's about using what you have in the moment to protect the safety of everyone involved.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Puberty- that's the line for most dogs in my experience, so it'll vary kid to kid. But around age 11-13 is generally ballpark.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Happened to us this weekend! 

Went for a hike on Mother's Day, we passed another family with a chocolate lab, mom, dad, 2 teen boys and a little girl. Little girl was the last in line and she made a run for Rumo! Mom reached out and caught her arm just in time - even as I was saying, "Please do not pet him." 

I learned that sometimes little kids who have dogs of their own, are actually the boldest.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> How stressful. I'm so sorry. I'd say parents need to educate their kids - and really, they should - but so many of the adults I see don't know the right way to approach a dog either. The difference is that most of them have the impulse control to stop and ask me - but they can't teach their kids what they haven't learned themselves.
> 
> It's a tough line to walk. I require my dog to handle herself around kids and likely couldn't keep a dog who wouldn't, but I live in a densely populated urban area with a ton of young families. I've had to learn a good, solid facade of ridiculous confidence; if I'm squared up and exuding authoritative energy, I can stop a kid in his/her tracks. I'm always surprised by how well it works, but something about me must make them not want to mess with me. It isn't about hating kids or being mean for fun. It's not mean. It's about using what you have in the moment to protect the safety of everyone involved.


Honestly, normally I can too. I work as a teacher, so being stern with children definitely isn't anything new to me. But I don't even understand what was going through this girl's head. She had zero regard for what I said or the attitude I was protruding - just 100% her desire to try and pet my dog despite what had happened previously. Absolutely bonkers to me. 

I think with more experience and time I'll get much better with it as you are. Ryka has kind of always been seen in our family as the social, happy to interact with others kind of dog after she's done her sniffing and okay-ed them in her head. Just yesterday an old man wanted to pet her, and I was a bit wary because of what happened. But Ryka saw him, did her introductory sniff, and then wiggled her butt to demand pets and kisses after I gave permission. His wife came out to say hello, and Ryka wouldn't stop licking her face and nuzzling their hands.

So all I can think of is that really, my dog reacted based on my stress and because of how forward the girl was. My body and vocal signals were screaming, "don't come any closer", as were the vocalization of my sister-in-law, and because the girl didn't stop Ryka felt like she had to act on it. I don't want her to do that, so I've been really working on encouraging her to let me handle things since then. We have, however, realized that she's the kind of dog in sport that works harder when the handler comes at her more aggressively/head on while I'm with her, and only gives mediocre work when it's just general prey work. So I think it's a personality trait I need to be aware of and manage appropriately from here on out. 

That's why I appreciate this forum so much. Lots to learn from lots of perspectives, and others' experiences are great learning tools.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dojoson41 said:


> and the poor dog/owner is always at fault=kids need to be punished and stupid people slapped. ALL DOGS BITE SOMETIME IN THEIR SHORT LIVES



No, not all dogs bite sometimes in their short lives. Other than puppy-teething, many dogs never bite a soul.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think my old girl is as safe as they come, but I still physically intercepted a lot of charging children. These days if anyone, esp children wants to pet her I make sure and explain that she doesn't hear or see that well anymore and we need to go slow and be sure she knows what's going on. I can't imagine her biting even if a kid ran up and surprised her but I also realize she is getting old and nothing is as it once was.

My white dog would definitely not take it kindly if a kid ran up on him. Interestingly most of them don't try to with him. But he is a big, powerful dog and he never gives any indication that he wants people to approach or pet him ( because he doesn't), where my girl has been known to make twinkly eyes at people and they sometimes catch her wavelength even if she hasn't even wagged her tail, she just gazes at them and they know. He does not make those twinkly, friendly eyes at people for SURE.


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## jazy650 (Mar 6, 2019)

It’s very normal. He s defending himself. He doesn’t understand it’s a child . For him it’s a charging object coming towards him. I encounter with my white Swiss Shepard. I usually talk to my dog to distract or calm him. If it’s a 2 years old I stand between them so the baby doesn’t get to my dog . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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