# Anyone care to discuss Nicole Wilde?



## glowingtoadfly

Hey, Old School Dominance Theory: School’s Out! | Wilde About Dogs
We were having such a great discussion of this article.


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## Eiros

I was curious what everyone meant when they said the wolf in the picture looked uncomfortable... Holy moly yes he does! 


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## glowingtoadfly

Wolfdogs are a nervous lot.


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## Eiros

Lol not saying anything about it, just that he looks uncomfortable. ? I don't know any wolf dogs so I'm no judge. 

Personally I don't believe everything my dog does out of line is a dominance display either, though I didn't read the whole article, I assume that's her point. 


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## ZoeD1217

Yikes

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## glowingtoadfly

I can't tell if he's uncomfortable or just hanging out. But I haven't met a wolfdog either, I plan to remedy that someday


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## glowingtoadfly

Yeah, I think her point is just that there are other ways to interpret canine behavior besides dominance, and that dominance theory is flawed.


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## David Taggart

Anyone who has read Patricia McConell on dominance the main stem of which is "the man wants to dominate the dog at any cost only because he's a man and that one is a dog" would realize, that it is her topic was widened by Nicole. Of course there are neuted wolf-dog hybrids to choose in rescue centres, but I'd rather see some snappy intact Jack Rassells instead, or pitbulls.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I enjoyed CMs episodes with wolf dogs. Common sense stuff but I hear common sense aint so common these days. 
I think there are dominant wolves in any given pack. As there are lead mares in horse herds, dominant matriarcs in Orca pods etc etc. There are those that wish to re invent the wheel and deny what has been common sense for thousands of years. There are always people willing to buy in because it suits their personal fantasies.

I make all the choices for my dogs, when they eat, walk, go to the bathroom, play ball, bark, sit etc. I dont think of it as dominance, its just common sense to me.

People hear the word dominance and get their panties in a bunch because of all the HUMAN conitations it holds..often negative. Dominance or leadership or whatever you want to call it in animals is symptom of survival.


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## glowingtoadfly

Can anyone go into what about his body posture looks uncomfortable to them? I definitely agree that what Patricia wrote about dominance was deepened by Nicole. I went to her Helping Fearful Dogs conference in Milwaukee and she went over how to tell if a dog is fearful or stressed by its body language, how a second dog that is more stable can help a fearful dog ( part of the reason why I got a second dog). She also went into how supplements like lactium and l theanine can help anxious dogs.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think that CM puts dogs in a state of learned helplessness.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I think that CM puts dogs in a state of learned helplessness.


I think if you understood k9 body language you wouldnt think that.


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## glowingtoadfly

I have actually studied canine body language quite a bit. I work as a dog walker at the humane society and because of my experiences with Skadi they put me on walking the often terrified or anxious new arrivals. I had to go through five months of training in body language and handling to be allowed to work with the dogs. On the show, I often see lip licking, turn aways, sniffing the ground, and other calming signals when the dogs are corrected.


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## glowingtoadfly

Here is Nicole on canine body language during dog/ dog play


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## Blitzkrieg1

What you see is a man controling upwards of 30 dogs with issues all living together. You see the same guy walking all those dogs without it turning into a **** show. I see the same guy dealing with fear and aggression issues that most trainers would walk away from. If you want to watch a guy that knows how to read dogs watch cm. I see a lot of nervous dogs that are yank and crank trained. His arent.

Sorry humane societies generally employ trainers that know next to nothing. How can you say you understand K9 body language after the threads you have started is beyond me.

I have said it before and I will say it again for some people dog training is all about affirming what they already think they know. For others its about results and emulating those with RESULTS.


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## glowingtoadfly

I am no longer going to defend myself, or bring up other threads  my dogs are doing fine, thank you, both making progress. Blitzkrieg, since you have experience with canine body language can you perhaps tell me why the wolfdog in the first photo looks uncomfortable?


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## glowingtoadfly

I have been told that his ears are pinned slightly.


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## Blanketback

After having my posts deleted yesterday, I can only assume that my opinions regarding Nicole Wilde aren't welcome on this forum. Which is fine, so I'll save the mods the bother of censoring this thread too.


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## glowingtoadfly

Actually, I started this thread because my post with the link to Nicole Wilde was considered off topic. Any opinions you have would not be off topic, blanketback


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## carmspack

nothing said in that video -- time wasting clips -- 3 week old pups in the beginning of the social stage -- of course they are going to mouth , that is how they explore their world . That segment offered no intelligence outside of evoking an emotional response.
-remember that phrase -

That video is as bad as the books. The information given? Nothing new. Presented at best at a low grade 4 level.

I did buy Living with Wolfdogs and Wolfdogs A-Z , because I do like to research the subject . Have you read the books?

I present to you an excerpt , full quote credit to Nicole Wilde, recently shared , under the heading 
Compatibility/Integrating Your Pack -- Existing Pack Members

If you have pets other than canines, consider carefully before you bring home a wolfdog - especially an adult . A mature wolfdog coming into a home with cats, birds, rabbits, or other small pets may chase and kill those pets. A pup is less likely to do so than an adult, and if rasied and socialized properly with other pets, may coexist peacefully; then again, they may not.

that from page 23 of Living with Wolfdogs.

randomly chosen Picky Eaters page 84 "Some wolfdogs are very picky about their kibble. If your wolfdog refuses to eat this new high-quality kibble you've so diligently reasearced, try pouring chicken broth over it . The broth can be straight from the can, or to make it even more enticing, heated first"

here from Wolfdogs A-Z chapter on Dominance Challenges page 47

talking about crowding of personal space quote " If you're sitting on something higher than the wolfdog fold your arms, hunch your shoulders and lean forward; turn slightly to one side , then gently push the woof off with your shoulder/upper arm"

yes folks she did say WOOF . Achingly non scholarly material.

Just plain outright dangerous for any one contemplating getting a hybrid , or dealing with issues . You need to refer to these texts you should not even think about a wolfdog , and maybe not even a doggy dog.

more......





CM's dogs are not "learned helpness" . That is a phrase I used on your dog dropping the body weight in a slump when you want to drag the dog to the time out room.


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## glowingtoadfly

I know what learned helplessness is


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## Merciel

glowingtoadfly said:


> Can anyone go into what about his body posture looks uncomfortable to them?


- body posture stiff
- head and gaze averted from person, slightly lowered
- mouth closed/stiff
- eyes in fixed/anxious stare (although this one I'm not sure about since wolfdog eyes are a little different from what I'm used to seeing)
- one ear pinned partway back
- weight seems to be shifted rearward
- posture is pulling away from rather than leaning into contact with the person

Having said all that it's impossible to determine _why_ the dog is so clearly anxious and uncomfortable. It might be the presence of the photographer and having the camera's big black eye pointed directly at him (her? I don't know). It might be that the wolfdog is trying to escape the hug. It might just be another instance of Fearful Dog Is Fearful.

As far as Nicole Wilde goes, I generally like her body of work. She has written a lot of good stuff on working with fearful dogs and (separately) starting up a solo business as a pet dog trainer and how to handle various types of client interactions. I haven't read any of her material on wolfdogs, though, since I don't plan to ever own or deal with a wolfdog myself.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I am no longer going to defend myself, or bring up other threads  my dogs are doing fine, thank you, both making progress. Blitzkrieg, since you have experience with canine body language can you perhaps tell me why the wolfdog in the first photo looks uncomfortable?


What do I know I havent been to humane society class.


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## Lilie

Merciel said:


> - body posture stiff
> - head and gaze averted from person, slightly lowered
> - mouth closed/stiff
> - eyes in fixed/anxious stare (although this one I'm not sure about since wolfdog eyes are a little different from what I'm used to seeing)
> - one ear pinned partway back
> - weight seems to be shifted rearward
> - posture is pulling away from rather than leaning into contact with the person
> 
> Having said all that it's impossible to determine _why_ the dog is so clearly anxious and uncomfortable. It might be the presence of the photographer and having the camera's big black eye pointed directly at him (her? I don't know). It might be that the wolfdog is trying to escape the hug. It might just be another instance of Fearful Dog Is Fearful.


:thumbup: One ear is on the lady and the other ear on the photographer. It's tail is also clamped fairly tight. If this were my dog, (and not a wolf/wolf dog) I would know I've pushed him close to his threshold. I'd kennel him poste haste.


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## glowingtoadfly

Carmen, yes, I have read living with wolfdogs and wolfdogs a-z. I found helpful information in there about diversions for dogs like frozen bones, also containment and bonding. I actually enjoy the cute names for wolfdogs she uses, be that as it may. If I start up a thread asking for help with my dogs, I'm sure you will comment with advice. This thread is about Nicole Wilde, not my dogs. Blitzkrieg, I never stated that I would discount the experiences of non humane society people in body language reading. Merciel, thank you for the breakdown. I also wondered if he was camera shy.


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## crackem

one thing about pictures and dogs, is dogs are very, very dynamic. they can feel one way in one instant and totally different the next. Not that I think it's the case with this picture, but in general

Just picture two dogs playing. If I take a snapshot, one will look like it's ready to tear ass out of there, ears back, huge eyes, stiff, but ready to run, or both standing tall, forward posture, hard eyes stiff tails looking like they're going to rip each other open. then in the next instant one dives down and they're off and running playing like long lost friends.


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## carmspack

yes I get that feeling that this thread will go into the black hole ---

All I did was provide material directly from Wilde's books , which were for me a complete waste of time and money -- 

Dogs and wolfs are not hunters . You want a scholarly look at Canid development then look at Dogs Their Fossil Relatives & Evolutionary History [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-Fossil-Relatives-Evolutionary-History/dp/0231135297[/ame]-- which makes them out to be scavenger , pack living bone cracking (blunted teeth) carnivores .

I don't see much information in the Wilde books that you couldn't get at the petsmarty checkout counter in those thin books about the "breeds".


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## glowingtoadfly

The Dog Blog | Dog Star Daily
A better photo of Nicole and Phantom, also her concerns about whispering wolfdogs


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## Blanketback

Well, since the thread will get flushed anyhow...as far as the picture goes: I would expect much more from the photo shoot, and I'd expect that the best shot would be used. So if this is the level of discomfort, in the "best" shot, just how bad were the others? Did she end up getting hurt before the day was done? Why why why use that picture? It's disrespectful to the wonderful animal. But then again, believing that wolves and dogs are the same creatures is pretty disrespectful too, IMO.


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## glowingtoadfly

... Please leave my dog out of this discussion.




CM's dogs are not "learned helpness" . That is a phrase I used on your dog dropping the body weight in a slump when you want to drag the dog to the time out room.[/QUOTE]


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## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback, in the dog star article I posted, she goes into the differences between wolfdogs and dogs.


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## Lilie

glowingtoadfly said:


> ... Please leave my dog out of this discussion.


[/QUOTE]

:shrug:


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## Blanketback

Honestly, I don't care if she makes a distinction between wolfdogs, tigerdogs, or zebradogs. Thankfully most wild creatures can't be successfully mated with our domestic animals so they're not going to be exploited and trapped in captivity. Although, no doubt there's a market for it whenever it can be done.


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## glowingtoadfly

The Tragedy of Wolf Dogs
Blanketback, is this more of your opinion on wolfdogs? I go back and forth.


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## Blanketback

Yes, and thank you for posting that. I think it's supremely arrogant of people to think they're entitled to muck with wolves. And buying them encourages others to breed them. And how are they bred? I've heard that the domestic dog bitches are tied out to trees....this I can't confirm, because I've spent very little time learning about something that disturbs me so much, when there's so much more to learn about things that matter to me


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## carmspack

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I enjoyed CMs episodes with wolf dogs. Common sense stuff but I hear common sense aint so common these days.
> I think there are dominant wolves in any given pack. As there are lead mares in horse herds, dominant matriarcs in Orca pods etc etc. There are those that wish to re invent the wheel and deny what has been common sense for thousands of years. There are always people willing to buy in because it suits their personal fantasies.
> 
> I make all the choices for my dogs, when they eat, walk, go to the bathroom, play ball, bark, sit etc. I dont think of it as dominance, its just common sense to me.
> 
> People hear the word dominance and get their panties in a bunch because of all the HUMAN conitations it holds..often negative. Dominance or leadership or whatever you want to call it in animals is symptom of survival.


 that was dear Blitzkrieg , not dear Carmen . 

blanketback said "Well, since the thread will get flushed anyhow...as far as the picture goes: I would expect much more from the photo shoot, and I'd expect that the best shot would be used. So if this is the level of discomfort, in the "best" shot, just how bad were the others? Did she end up getting hurt before the day was done? Why why why use that picture? It's disrespectful to the wonderful animal. But then again, believing that wolves and dogs are the same creatures is pretty disrespectful too, IMO"

******** yes that is not the only picture with that atmosphere -- that same one we discuss is on the back cover of the Wolfdogs A - Z , I believe her special wolfdog named Phantom?
If the wolfdog is too ruff in hand feeding she recommends feeding with a metal spoon.
The other book Living with Wolfdogs has other pictures , in each ms Wilde is in some coy , shirt falling off the shoulder, close proximity to face . The one on the back cover looks like a pretty annoyed wolf . The facial expression is one that you would see on a bitch at the end of tolerating some nonsense from her bratty pup - and he is about to get the lightning fast snap to learn him some manners.
If you have that book go see the eyes closing , the ear going back , the tension over the bridge of the muzzle (nose) mouth open.

For a terrified wolfdog hiding behind furniture she suggest sitting in one area , tossing a scented shirt to the animal and reading something a story of Little Red Riding Hood . 
(page 33) 

oh puleez


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## carmspack

What value do you get from the books ?


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## Merciel

carmspack said:


> If the wolfdog is too ruff in hand feeding she recommends feeding with a metal spoon.
> 
> For a terrified wolfdog hiding behind furniture she suggest sitting in one area , tossing a scented shirt to the animal and reading something a story of Little Red Riding Hood .


Discounting the "wolf" aspect and focusing on this advice as it pertains to dogs, what's wrong with either of those suggestions?

Using a metal spoon to discourage sharky mouths and biting during treat-taking is pretty standard advice. Most dogs find the sensation of biting metal to be mildly aversive and will avoid biting down on the metal, which encourages them to be gentler with their mouths.

Reading to a frightened/shut-down animal is also pretty standard advice. It generally forces the person into a less confrontational body posture, removes their direct eye contact (because they have to look at the book to read), causes the _person_ to relax and avoid throwing off anxious body language (because, again, they're focusing on the book), and gives the dog a chance to get acclimatized to the sound of a human voice being offered without threatening contact.

I'm not sure what utility the shirt is supposed to have except to familiarize the dog with human scent (I guess?) but I can't see what it would hurt.

Just because it's presented in simplified cutesy language doesn't mean the content is bad. Personally I would prefer that the reasoning behind the suggestions be laid out more clearly, so people would be better equipped to tailor their behavior to the situation as it changes, but I can't fault the substance of the suggestions you've quoted.


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## glowingtoadfly

I found the suggestion to read to your canine helpful. At the humane society there is a socialization exercise they do with all the dogs. Each dog is read to by volunteers.


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## glowingtoadfly

I do apologise for sassing you and calling you dear.


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## Galathiel

It's unfortunate that wolfdogs even exist. They are not really suited for the pet home, not usually comfortable in public, normally need a fort knox type enclosure, can be shy, skittish, wary of people, even their own. 

I'm glad you apologized for your part. Calling someone you barely know a pet name is a nice, passive-aggressive way to condescendingly belittle someone. Disagreeing in a logical, well-thought out way works much better.


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## glowingtoadfly

I am not going to bring up what drove me to that point as I have already done so. I do apologise for losing my temper.


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## carmspack

- in jest -

I am sorry Little Red Riding Hood is not something to read a wolfdog plastered against the wall behind some couch ---

just wait till you get to the end of the story - that wolfdog is going to never come out , be psychologically scarred for life !

much better the Golden Classics Three Little Bigs --- oops , sorry , not good for the wolfdog either !

not good for establishing trust .

I think those baby books where you lift the flap or pull the tab and the C O W makes a MOOO sound, the piggy oinks . No bad endings there.

the books are so juvenile - grade 4 

these creatures as described in Part Wild [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Part-Wild-Journey-Creature-Between/dp/1451634811[/ame] 
are between two worlds , belonging to neither one in full.

to create such hybrids for some vanity or imagined closeness to mythological nature , at the expense of that animal to me in immoral. 
They are not dogs . They are not wolves.

When the efforts for training are challenging , and the results unreliable what kind of life is that for the animal, or the caretaker . Wilde even uses the words "extremely challenging (page 50)

any way I have a conference to get ready for , so not backing out or down , ... later


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## glowingtoadfly

I loved Part Wild! Terrell's blog comes up if you google my urban wild. Great discussion of genetically tame Russian foxes.


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## Blanketback

I just ordered that book  Thank you for that! I do love wolves very much, but they're in my home in the form of wall art and figurines, lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

I am much more for the rescuing of already created wolfdogs. I do believe there are very few responsible wolfdog breeders. Wolfdogs are also often misrepresented. Many husky malamute german shepherd crosses die in shelters from the wolfdog label, as any animal labeled as a wolfdog by its owners is often euthanized.


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## Blanketback

I want to point out, that in the video you've posted #14, the GSD is called "socially awkward" and this is a misleading observation: it is in fact wrong. It's true that the GSD had made a motion to place his head over the other dog's neck, and it's also true that when dogs do this that at times it can be a challenge and lead to problems. But this isn't a hard-and-fast rule. They also do it in play. Anyone watching that video, and hearing from this _expert_ could be forgiven for assuming that the GSD is a accident waiting to happen. I just have to point that out, seeing as this is a GSD forum and all, lol. I won't say anything else but this had to be addressed! 

And "responsible wolfdog breeder" is quite the oxymoron, IMO. But if you're seriously intent on opening a sanctuary for these animals then I hope you get some great advice from some people who value them for what they _really_ are.


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## Nigel

carmspack said:


> these creatures as described in Part Wild http://www.amazon.ca/Part-Wild-Journey-Creature-Between/dp/1451634811
> are between two worlds , belonging to neither one in full.
> 
> to create such hybrids for some vanity or imagined closeness to mythological nature , at the expense of that animal to me in immoral.
> They are not dogs . They are not wolves.


There was a nat-geo show that was saying exactly this, wolf/dog hybrids are conflicted between two completely different instincts.


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## glowingtoadfly

I support the rescuing of wolfdogs more than the breeding of them... No, I'm not considering getting one  Just fascinated by them, would like to meet one.


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## glowingtoadfly

http://wolfdogmisrepeducation.weebly.com/uploads/1/7/5/5/17553253/7383225_orig.jpg

Note the black gsd in this photo...


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## glowingtoadfly

I really, really enjoyed Getting a Grip on Aggression Cases by Nicole. It helped inspire me to journal my dog's progress.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I saw that show too, the one where wolves on an island were being unusually aggressive to humans and attacked some people? 

I'm not a fan of wolf dogs in any way, you just can't predict what you're going to get and what often happens is a genetic mess.

That show, however, did an excellent job of illustrating and explaining, fundamentally, it's also cruel to the animals for the reasons you and Carmen state.

Fortunately most people who claim to have 'wolf dogs' really have mix breed dog, usually with husky** and they are 100% canis lupus familiaris.


**Though on one of the local FB pet group feeds some folks with what looked like a sad old hound mix, long floppy ears and droopy eyes and all swore up and down its a wolf dog!! 



Nigel said:


> There was a nat-geo show that was saying exactly this, wolf/dog hybrids are conflicted between two completely different instincts.


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## glowingtoadfly

Here is a link to Howling Woods Farm, with some information on wolfdogs, their likely (shy) temperament, why they are not for everyone...I am a member of many wolfdog Facebook groups including those for breeder/ rescue placement and I have found the reports of low to low mid wolfdog temperament to be good. There are also a few very picky breeders who only sell to the experienced with proper containment and time for such a companion. 
Wolf Dogs


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## carmspack

Wolf Dogs

even the dog asks in confusion , what am I?

40,000 years of separation --

so then why not wolfy-poos , or pooey-wolves , why select that cross which will maximize on the wolfy appearance ?

marketing


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## glowingtoadfly

The Wolfdog Blog | Life with a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog x Saarloos & a Timber Wolf Hybrid
What, then, about the Czechoslovakian Vlcak, which came from German shepherds being bred to wolves at the Czech border patrol kennels years ago? I'd be interested to hear your opinions on those dogs


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## carmspack

the fact was that it was not done for the appearance but to gain some heightened stamina , size of head and jaw , and super-senses , especially olfactory skills .

it was not successful

check how many threads or comments there are on Czech wolf dogs on the forum.

my experience was working closely with one of the trainers stationed at the Pohranicni compounds , a young man who appeared at my doorstep looking for employment working my dogs. He was referred to me by a major GTA police department where he had gone hoping to land a job as a trainer. This he could not do because he was not a Canadian citizen yet, and he was not in our law enforcement circles.

I had no job for him. We did get him a job as a vacuum cleaner door to door salesman and sat through hours of his perfecting his sales pitch and English.

He was / is a delightful person . Became a friend, and was a decoy for our schutzhund club.

We talked at length about the dogs "over there" . We also talked about the on site cottage and the pens immediately in his backyard , which I saw in the pictures that he had . In those pens were the Czech wolf-dogs which were his responsibility . They were not hybrids at this point being many generations away from the initial cross , or introduction of wolf . Once you introduce shy it is very hard to get get it out of a line.

years after being in Canada , in response to the interest of people in the Czech wolf dogs he did import one or two , and they ended up with him - not saleable . 

For the same reasons for the Czech wolf-dogs a Dutch man attempted to do the same thing and his version is called the Saarloos dog . 
That also was a failure , as far as improved working .

If you want to breed a better dog , choose a better dog to breed to and with . If you want the hunt and search , then select one that has this by nature not by training.

Use the training to shape the behaviour , not create the behaviour.


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## glowingtoadfly

I find Czech wolfdogs very interesting because of my girl's partial Czech lineage. I will definitely check the threads on the vlcak out.


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## Baillif

Olivia Wilde is cuter. Although it is a pity she is a jayhawks fan and therefore dead to me.


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## carmspack

the Czech lines have nothing to do with the Czech wolf dogs . they were separate and distinct as a "breed" form decades before the early 90's when the eastern bloc opened the curtain a bit.


Bailiff -- Reba McIntire does the look better !


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## Baillif

Kind of funny you said that because i thought that and then was like **** kathy griffin does it better.


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## glowingtoadfly

Before we brought her home, I found myself researching the pohranicni straze kennels and just found it to be a delightful bit of history... I know she's not a vlcak. As an aside, now that I know that this thread will not degenerate, my husband and I visited IPO training and he has been giving her obedience lessons in German. He says that visiting there gave him such insight into her character and needs, like those of an esoteric machine we did not understand before.


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## glowingtoadfly

Oh come on, Nicole is just as pretty as Reba. She told me not to push my dog too far too fast with hand shyness


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## Gwenhwyfair

Wolfy-poos? 


:spittingcoffee:




carmspack said:


> Wolf Dogs
> 
> even the dog asks in confusion , what am I?
> 
> 40,000 years of separation --
> 
> so then why not wolfy-poos , or pooey-wolves , why select that cross which will maximize on the wolfy appearance ?
> 
> marketing


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## Gwenhwyfair

The following is not directed at you, this is in general and I'm going to be blunt.

Anyone who breeds-crosses wolves and dogs is stupid, greedy and now upon deeper reflection cruel to not only humans but also the poor animals.

There is no real logical purpose nor need for any 'wolf dog' in human society or in the wild at all. Our human ancestors selectively bred out many of the wolf characteristics over the ages for good reason.

Therefore it's a huge disservice to all involved dog, humans and wolf which should be in the wild or proper sanctuary with it's kind and not being used to satisfy some ego and money driven industry. It is a practice that should be completely and totally outlawed with severe punishment and fines including jail time.






glowingtoadfly said:


> Here is a link to Howling Woods Farm, with some information on wolfdogs, their likely (shy) temperament, why they are not for everyone...I am a member of many wolfdog Facebook groups including those for breeder/ rescue placement and I have found the reports of low to low mid wolfdog temperament to be good. There are also a few very picky breeders who only sell to the experienced with proper containment and time for such a companion.
> Wolf Dogs


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## carmspack

sure -- why aren't poodles used in these crosses ? because they need the creature to look like a wild wolf - the more so the better.

although a wolf with a perm? any graphic artists -- we have a hugely talented young lady artist who posted recently but I can't find her -- graphics with an edge -- someone go get her 

this is for fun , only as I don't support this mucking around


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## carmspack

TOTALLY off topic , but speaking of artists what happened to the student who had a project where she needed to do a profile and chose to use a GSD as her subject. Hundreds of GSD head shots were provided with a "winner"  or winners .

Would love to see the results of that !!


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## glowingtoadfly

The Daily Coyote
Has anyone read The Daily Coyote by Shreve Stockton? Great book. Her SO was a coyote hunter for the state of Wyoming and found her a pup from a litter he was culling. She raised the pup with some struggle and still blogs about it. Very interesting in light of this discussion.


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## glowingtoadfly

Google image search poodle wolf cross. Do it. It's soulful but sad and hilarious at the same time.


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## carmspack

yes I have this one --- because we have so many coyotes in our yard -- and they are back --- came in so late last night I unloaded a box of chicken frames and left it in front of the garage . Too tired to lug any more heavy containers I left it for "later" but slept through -- this morning 6 a . m . there is "big sinister" at the box , nearly empty , a few strewn carcass down the drive way. He looks up , grabs the carcass and saunters his way to the pines .

I think this one is one of the larger new arrivals --

one of the best books studying coyotes and canids is Gerry Parkers study Eastern Coyote: Gerry Parker: 9781551091112: Amazon.com: Books


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'll pass, for the following two reasons- 1) if true it would just piss me off...and 2) it's usually not true therefore a waste of time and as I mentioned earlier *most* so called wolf dogs really have no wolf in them at all.

Good friend of mine used to breed and show Siberian huskies. She was approached a time or two by people when out and about with her male who wanted to use him as stud, he was on the big side of the standard, to use for breeding and duping people about 'wolf crosses'. She always said no but she also said a lot of the so called wolf dogs are husky crosses because not everyone will say no if money is involved.

Clever marketing ploy because if they ever get called into court as wolf crosses are illegal in GA, a DNA test would get them off the hook if needed.

What does interest me is why is it SO important to some people to believe they have a wolf cross. :crazy:

.






glowingtoadfly said:


> Google image search poodle wolf cross. Do it. It's soulful but sad and hilarious at the same time.


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## glowingtoadfly

I actually posted in this thread already about wolfdog misrepresentation and how it kills many animals in shelters... As for the ego... In my wolfdog Facebook groups I see many people posting pictures of their animals for phenotyping by the group who get very upset when they are told their animal has no content. These people have all been duped by misrepresenters. The poodle wolf cross is real. It was part of an experiment I believe.


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## glowingtoadfly

The poodle wolf study was done in 1976 by C. Schleifenbaum. It was on fur markings.


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## carmspack

high artic and sled dog users did have natural crosses going both ways --- and deliberate crosses --

not for pet market --- either to be able to endure harshest weather conditions -- the time that my musher friend raced in the Yukon Quest he said night time temperatures were -50 

power to hunt the polar bear 

power to pull the sleds

that is part of a genomic study which will get under way "soon" involving an indigenous "innuit" dog named Spruce (and others from the opposite side of the continent, an African village dog , an aboriginal north American strain --- and dna from the Belyaev's "tame" foxes.


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## glowingtoadfly

The Carolina dog is also fascinating- the American dingo, which was found to be an actual wild dog, although they can be domesticated easily, they still dig snout pits.


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## Gwenhwyfair

*sigh*


That's what I mean .... Stupid. I don't have the patience for that sort of thing.

There's only millions of sweet family friendly dogs being euth'd in this country because no one wants them. There's so many pure bred dogs being bred by breeders who do really and genuinely care about their breed and producing sound dogs that serve their intended purpose. But Noooooo, that's just to boring and logical. 

Maybe shelters should list all the poor dogs about to be put down as wolf hybrids. 

Idiots. Sorry but it's really very stupid, all of it.

The only exception would be controlled scientific studies but even then I think a serious and knowledgeable scientist would find it unethical to breed wolves to dogs and for what purpose? I know the experiment was done with foxes but that was selective breeding for tameness with foxes, controls, testing and tracking. Now that was interesting as it showed how selective breeding for tameness influenced our modern dogs development.




glowingtoadfly said:


> I actually posted in this thread already about wolfdog misrepresentation and how it kills many animals in shelters... As for the ego... In my wolfdog Facebook groups I see many people posting pictures of their animals for phenotyping by the group who get very upset when they are told their animal has no content. These people have all been duped by misrepresenters. The poodle wolf cross is real. It was part of an experiment I believe.


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## glowingtoadfly

Some of the wolfdog rescue people have been trying to educate animal control on how to phenotype wolfdogs to circumvent the euthanization of misrepped dogs. A girl in one of the groups adopted a low mid content wolfdog from a shelter who she really adores. He was incorrectly phenotyped as a Belgian shepherd at the shelter. It can also go the other way- wolfdogs can be incorrectly labeled as dogs and end up in someone's home. Luckily the girl is working with the wolfdog, he's a couch potato with separation anxiety and has to be on a raw diet but is a very sweet boy.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't care. This whole wolf dog business is ridiculous and the more you share information about it the more convinced I am of this.

Shelters don't really 'phenotype' dogs in a *scientific* sense, they take guesses as to the breed/mix a dog is and are often wildly inaccurate or have quite a sense of humor.

If it's not DNA tested and proven to be a wolf hybrid it's all just guessing.

I don't delve into this world because it lacks any redeeming qualities to justify wasting time with it or on it.


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## glowingtoadfly

It is actually possible to tell if a dog has content from certain behavioral, posture, ear, tail, foot/leg markers on a canine's body. If more shelter workers were educated fewer dogs would die for being wolfdogs when they are not. I think phenotyping should be part of any shelter worker's education.


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## David Taggart

> *most* so called wolf dogs really have no wolf in them at all.


German Shepherds continuously were interbred with wolfdogs to get fresher lines and GSD always won over the wolf. But, it would be naive to think that wolves added nothing to GSD drives and temperament. European wulfaz added to both East and West German lines. White Swiss remind Arctic Wolfdog too much, while American Working line dogs, who originally included European lines which also took from Saarloos wolfdogs, were crossbred with incredibly intelligent and very strict in social structure Canadian wolf. Melanism for purely black colour is also present. White Swiss are less agressive than American Working line, but they are less intelligent as well. Many speculate that British Alsatian is a futher mix with dog-fox hybrids. US had imports of endengered species like very mild in temperament Tibetan wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who were cross-bred with GSD. People used to think of a wolf as something one and the same, but different wolf species bear different characteristics. So, where are Nicole's wolfdogs coming from?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Impossible to tell with some mixes and shelters (county dog pounds) don't have the time or money to try and make better guesses....

If it's not DNA tested to prove it's a 'wolf dog' then it's guessing, period. That's not to say the guesses are always wrong but without actual DNA testing they remain guesses and every time someone tells me they have a 'wolf dog' I do this....




glowingtoadfly said:


> It is actually possible to tell if a dog has content from certain behavioral, posture, ear, tail, foot/leg markers on a canine's body. If more shelter workers were educated fewer dogs would die for being wolfdogs when they are not. I think phenotyping should be part of any shelter worker's education.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Dogs' Closest Wolf Ancestors Went Extinct, Study Suggests | LiveScience



David Taggart said:


> German Shepherds continuously were interbred with wolfdogs to get fresher lines and GSD always won over the wolf. But, it would be naive to think that wolves added nothing to GSD drives and temperament. European wulfaz added to both East and West German lines. White Swiss remind Arctic Wolfdog too much, while American Working line dogs, who originally included European lines which also took from Saarloos wolfdogs, were crossbred with incredibly intelligent and very strict in social structure Canadian wolf. Melanism for purely black colour is also present. White Swiss are less agressive than American Working line, but they are less intelligent as well. Many speculate that British Alsatian is a futher mix with dog-fox hybrids. US had imports of endengered species like very mild in temperament Tibetan wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who were cross-bred with GSD. People used to think of a wolf as something one and the same, but different wolf species bear different characteristics. So, where are Nicole's wolfdogs coming from?


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## Gwenhwyfair

> . Researchers analyzed the genomes of wolves from three likely sites of domestication (the Middle East, Asia and eastern Europe), and found that modern dogs were not more closely related to any of the three. In fact, it seems that the closest wolf ancestors of today's dogs may have gone extinct, leaving no wild descendants.


What this means is with the exception of a few outliers, introduced by the aforementioned groups of stupid people reintroducing modern wolf DNA...

David, modern domestic dogs do not have any modern wolf DNA.

With that..I'll leave you to this GTF.


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## David Taggart

> modern domestic dogs do not have any modern wolf DNA.


Of course they do. Just, it is not up to a decision of some individual, but to International Cynological Federation programmes to include in GSD lines pedigree. 
Wolfdog and Wolf-like Dog Breed Showcase


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## glowingtoadfly

David, Nicole Wilde's animals were rescues from when she worked at a wolfdog rescue which later became popularized by the show pit bulls and parolees when it became a pit bull rescue. Gwenhwyfair, like it or not, wolfdogs are a reality that shelter workers deal with and the UC Davis test which tests for content is inaccurate at times. Phenotyping is imperfect but when done by an expert is accurate. I know that shelters operate on limited funds and such experts are few and far between. I just feel bad for wolfdogs I guess.


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## Gwenhwyfair

David, objective large scale studies show your statement to be largely inaccurate. ** DNA testing is the definitive evidence. In fact as. DNA testing is being refined it seems the wolf ancestors of our modern domestic dogs is further back then previously thought. 

Your link does nothing to dispute that, it looks more like marketing material.

**remember outliers are not indicative of the population and it's genetic history as a whole.





David Taggart said:


> Of course they do. Just, it is not up to a decision of some individual, but to International Cynological Federation programmes to include in GSD lines pedigree.
> Wolfdog and Wolf-like Dog Breed Showcase


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## Gwenhwyfair

Now you're saying U.C. Davis Tests for modern wolf DNA are inaccurate!?

I know that tests for specific content of mix breeds of domestic dogs aren't very accurate But I find it hard to believe that tests for modern wolf DNA. Given the advancements in DNA testing it's hard to believe its a frequent problem

Like I said, the more you write on this topic the more I think it's ridiculous and mostly driven by emotions and money more then anything.

You have at it though...way too much subjective baggage to unpack and I'm done.



glowingtoadfly said:


> David, Nicole Wilde's animals were rescues from when she worked at a wolfdog rescue which later became popularized by the show pit bulls and parolees when it became a pit bull rescue. Gwenhwyfair, like it or not, wolfdogs are a reality that shelter workers deal with and the UC Davis test which tests for content is inaccurate at times. Phenotyping is imperfect but when done by an expert is accurate. I know that shelters operate on limited funds and such experts are few and far between. Be that as it may...


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## glowingtoadfly

Inaccurate at times, is what I said, because a few proven purebred huskies came back with positive results. I don't mean to upset you. Wolfdogs can be upsetting.


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## glowingtoadfly

You think I'm writing all this out of emotions and money? Nah, It's just that wolfdogs fascinate me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Inaccurate at times? If it's really a rare occurrence then you shouldn't have felt the need to mention it? That's what happens when science doesn't validate mythology.

It's bad for people, dogs and wolves.

I mean no one is perfect, I've learned things the hard way too...but this whole wolf dog business rises to levels that make me :crazy:

Wolves have had a strong archetypal history with human evolution, but ultimately it's that mythology, emotion and greed which drives this craziness, not logic or science. Hence the comment about UC Davis tests. 

Whether it's the thoughtless people who take animals that would be better off in the wild (or in specialized sanctuary) to breed them for monetary gain, people who buy real wolf crosses and find them difficult or impossible to manage or (the I'm sure many people) who get duped by the wolf look alike crosses it's all absolutely frustratingly stupid.

So much so that I can't resist being so blunt about it. It's the complete and utter illogical 'foundations' of this all.

Wolf dog breeding should be outlawed, period. It has nothing redeeming about it no matter how much some people try to rationalize it.

Upsetting? Frustrating would be a better word. :headbang:




glowingtoadfly said:


> Inaccurate at times, is what I said, because a few proven purebred huskies came back with positive results. I don't mean to upset you. Wolfdogs can be upsetting.


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## Nigel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Inaccurate at times? If it's really a rare occurrence then you shouldn't have felt the need to mention it? That's what happens when science doesn't validate mythology.
> 
> It's bad for people, dogs and wolves.
> 
> I mean no one is perfect, I've learned things the hard way too...but this whole wolf dog business rises to levels that make me :crazy:
> 
> Wolves have had a strong archetypal history with human evolution, but ultimately it's that mythology, emotion and greed which drives this craziness, not logic or science. Hence the comment about UC Davis tests.
> 
> Whether it's the thoughtless people who take animals that would be better off in the wild (or in specialized sanctuary) to breed them for monetary gain, people who buy real wolf crosses and find them difficult or impossible to manage or (the I'm sure many people) who get duped by the wolf look alike crosses it's all absolutely frustratingly stupid.
> 
> So much so that I can't resist being so blunt about it. It's the complete and utter illogical 'foundations' of this all.
> 
> * Wolf dog breeding should be outlawed, period. It has nothing redeeming about no matter how much some people try to rationalize it.*
> 
> Upsetting? Frustrating would be a better word. :headbang:


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## glowingtoadfly

Misrepresentation really upsets me because of all the people who get wolfdogs like their friends thought to be wolfdog, except it's an actual wolfdog, they aren't prepared, then the animal literally has nowhere to go. Most rescues are full. That is why I support educated and prepared people getting rescues. That is literally about all that I support...I don't really support breeding but they are beautiful animals. I mentioned the UC inaccuracies because there has been much debate about it in the wolfdog community, that it will create more draconian laws somehow...


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## carmspack

David T , no way .

A good book , if you are interested in such things is, Dogs Their Fossil Relatives and Evolutionary History.

There are two recent DNA samplings which are turning the research world on its ears. One was a burial site where skeletal remains were taken and to the best of my recollection were on display at the Smithsonian . On that I am shaky . There was a court battle to have the remains returned to one of the native American nations as their ancient ancestor . DNA though baffled everyone because this had mitochondrial DNA from mid European possibly mid Germany type . Carbon dating put this well before pre Columbian era . I will have to ask for better details on this one. That changes the history of human migration into the new world . Previous thought was some Asian group crossing the land bridge of the Bering Sea which once joined Siberia and North America . 
DNA and carbon dating begin to show a different and even older event . 
The studies extend into domestic animals, dogs in particular . The notion that our aboriginal people had canids with recent wolf blood no longer holds water . The thought is that those mid-European wanderers brought their "dogs" with them . 
This is why "we" are looking into the Inuit and native American Indian dogs. 
I'll get something out of it --- and a paper will be written .

This is one of the oldest canine DNA samplings that were taken quote "
*Domesticated dog[edit]*

It is at Natufian sites that some of the earliest archaeological evidence for the domestication of the dog is found. At the Natufian site of Ain Mallaha in Israel, dated to 12,000 BC, the remains of an elderly human and a four-to-five-month-old puppy were found buried together.[19] At another Natufian site at the cave of Hayonim, humans were found buried with two canids"

some modern dogs do show a higher wolf content as shown on typing on the canine genomic study, the GSD is NOT one of them, the border collie is though.

2003). 
 View larger version:

This does go back further than the 200 or so years of "breed" (closed breeding)


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## my boy diesel

*
Wolf dog breeding should be outlawed, period. It has nothing redeeming about it no matter how much some people try to rationalize it.

Upsetting? Frustrating would be a better word. *

u can head bang all day it wont stop the breeding
there is probably a new litter born daily
there is even folks here on this board with wolf dogs and the reaction is always the same
ooh and ahh and what a pretty and awesome ERRR dog
and those reactions are why people still breed and sell em


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## glowingtoadfly

I do know of a few responsible wolfdog breeders who do their best to sell only to legal, responsible, properly contained homes. They do exist. Carmen, as usual, that is very fascinating stuff.


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## Arlene/Archer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Now you're saying U.C. Davis Tests for modern wolf DNA are inaccurate!?
> 
> I know that tests for specific content of mix breeds of domestic dogs aren't very accurate But I find it hard to believe that tests for modern wolf DNA. Given the advancements in DNA testing it's hard to believe its a frequent problem
> 
> Like I said, the more you write on this topic the more I think it's ridiculous and mostly driven by emotions and money more then anything.
> 
> You have at it though...way too much subjective baggage to unpack and I'm done.



You're not wrong: one amazing rescue here in Galway has two wolf hybrids, and as the lady who runs the rescue says- you don't get a better dog, you get a creature that is constantly fighting two inner demons.
Domestic v wild constantly, with all the problems that brings. A wolf in the wild is shy, unpredictable and driven to survive at ALL cost. A dog is driven to have human contact, has set behaviours for the most part and is keen to be part of human company. Blend the two and you have a creature with its paws in both worlds and it usually ends in disaster.


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## my boy diesel

with all due respect glowing
responsible wolf dog breeder is an oxymoron at best
such a thing does not exist
if one was responsible they would never tamper with nature like that


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## glowingtoadfly

Their view, and I am not saying this is my view, as I am not convinced that wolfdogs should be bred, is that wolfdog is a breed like any other and without good breeders the backyard, poorly bred wolfdogs will become even more the norm than they are now.


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## my boy diesel

there are no good breeders of wolf dogs though
who knows what you will get when you cross the two?
breeding them is not responsible
ergo there is no responsible person doing it ergo there is no responsible breeders of them

arlene archer said it best just a little ways up there ^^^


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## Gwenhwyfair

You don't support breeding them but don't want laws against it?

Wolves are beautiful animals in their own right.

Dogs are beautiful animals in their own right.

Combining them doesn't make them 'more' beautiful, it just creates problems for all concerned.

I bet there's a lot of debate about the science, especially if it doesn't support some people's agenda, belief, income stream.

And WRT to breeding wolves for 'pet purposes' I'm all for *more *draconian laws (which I'm usually not but this is pretty clear cut) Just like we don't need people trying to pawn off wild life for the pet trade, because wolves are wild and should remain that way.



glowingtoadfly said:


> Misrepresentation really upsets me because of all the people who get wolfdogs like their friends thought to be wolfdog, except it's an actual wolfdog, they aren't prepared, then the animal literally has nowhere to go. Most rescues are full. That is why I support educated and prepared people getting rescues. That is literally about all that I support...I don't really support breeding but they are beautiful animals. I mentioned the UC inaccuracies because there has been much debate about it in the wolfdog community, that it will create more draconian laws somehow...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup.

That about sums it up. 



my boy diesel said:


> there are no good breeders of wolf dogs though
> who knows what you will get when you cross the two?
> breeding them is not responsible
> ergo there is no responsible person doing it ergo there is no responsible breeders of them
> 
> arlene archer said it best just a little ways up there ^^^


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## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You don't support breeding them but don't want laws against it?
> 
> Wolves are beautiful animals in their own right.
> 
> Dogs are beautiful animals in their own right.
> 
> Combining them doesn't make them 'more' beautiful, it just creates problems for all concerned.
> 
> I bet there's a lot of debate about the science, especially if it doesn't support some people's agenda, belief, income stream.
> 
> And WRT to breeding wolves for 'pet purposes' I'm all for *more *draconian laws (which I'm usually not but this is pretty clear cut) Just like we don't need people trying to pawn off wild life for the pet trade, because wolves are wild and should remain that way.


I guess I don't feel it is my place to regulate the sale of wolfdogs... The very phrase does sound wrong... Rescue of wolfdogs sounds better to me  I dont feel that wolves or dogs are made better or more beautiful by being mixed together.


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## carmspack

You are aware of Shaun Ellis -- [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Lives-Wolves/dp/0307464709[/ame]

A Man Among Wolves

wolves are not dogs 

disciplinary messages are quite clear --


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## carmspack

just remembered there is a thread called what is a natural dog http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/277034-what-natural-dog.html


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## glowingtoadfly

Just read the beginning of that thread and I am already hooked. I have read A Man Among Wolves...It was a quick read. I also enjoyed Second Nature by Alice Hoffman... A poetic novel about a boy raised by wolves. Well written, but like many of her novels, fantastical.


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## glowingtoadfly

I do, after much thought, think that there are responsible wolfdog breeders who screen homes and don't sell to illegal states, and who take their wolfdogs back if it doesn't work out, so it is ok for them to breed in my book.. Just like any other responsible breeder. I think Nicole Wilde would agree..


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