# Bitework and Proper Engagement



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm not going to start doing Schutzhund with my dog, but we do tug a lot. She keeps the tug at the front of her mouth, and that can't be good on her canines. I'd like to teach her "proper" engagement (engagement _is_ the correct word, right?) so that the tug is at the back of her mouth.

I did a search in this sub forum, but oddly I couldn't find any threads that really laid out a process for this. Do you just ask them to tug, but only tug back if it is in the back of their mouth? There must be a real process to train this...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Maybe it would help if I got a bite pillow- such that the tug itself is wider than her mouth? Our current tug is only about 2" in diameter, so it doesn't fill her mouth. Maybe I should get one like this?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you hold the tug, she should "counter" and that will place the tug deeper into the mouth. At that point, then you engage the dog in tug.
Some dogs won't bite deep, and out of habit(because they've been rewarded with it) will hold the tug towards the front of the mouth. 
I wouldn't get a bite pillow, but maybe a two handle synthetic tug will be easier? Synthetic Tug 12"-Elite K-9


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I have that black tug linked above from LB's site, but I have the smaller puppy sized one because I use it for OB. It only has one handle and works fine, but for a larger dog (I use it with my mal, who is on the smaller side) I would definitely want a bigger tug because when he's really amped up I've gotten some finger nips here and there. I do like the smaller one for my purposes though, because I loop it over my wrist and can easily hold the end that way and tug the other so it's easy to transition back and forth from tug to OB.

BTW it is REALLY durable!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wildo said:


> Do you just ask them to tug, but only tug back if it is in the back of their mouth? There must be a real process to train this...


This is how it was explained to me: you "train" the pup to bite with the molars by releasing the tug when she gets it all the way back in her mouth. So she "wins" the tug when she bites deep. Once she's figured that out, then you can challenge her by more tugging.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, you are right, you can teach a dog to bite the pillow or tug properly. Start with a bite pillow, or a bigger tug, 12 inches or longer, or a tug with handles so you can hold on to both ends at the same time while you tug with your dog. I prefer a bigger tug that I can hold the tug itself, as opposed to the handles. For teaching proper bites, a little bit stiffer tug, like a pillow will work better. 

When the dog does not bite properly (i.e. with only the front canines), you don't engage her. Freeze, lock your arms, and stop tugging. She will want to get the tug from you and may try to get a better grip on the tug by re-adjusting with a fuller bite to get a better grip. The INSTANT she re-adjust with a deeper, fuller grip, let her win with a big show of GOOD GIRL!

Let her have the tug for a few seconds than grab hold of it again without asking her to out and continue to tug a bit more to keep the game going and let her win. 

At first, a small readjustment can be a winning readjustment, but then keep waiting her out with locked arms and no movement until she does readjust. At first, it may be a longer wait, but it will get shorter and shorter. 

Also, tease her a lot with the tug at first, just keeping it out of reach and making her miss to build her drive. With a higher drive and a stronger desire to get that tug, the more likely she is to bite deep. If she does, she wins! 

Here are some good examples of good tugs to use to teach this:















From:Schutzhund equipment, Police k9 equipment supplier , dog equipment, dog harness


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks for the great information in this thread.
Sorry, don't have anything to offer


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Try a search on YouTube for "Bite Development Ellis". That should provide quite a few links that will help to provide a visual for setting/readjusting the bite etc. 

Sometimes it also helps to begin again with a decent sized rag (you can also put it on a flirt pole). 

As an example, this one has some tidbits that might be useful:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Sorry for the delayed response everyone. We had a keg at work that needed to be floated- so I was in no shape yesterday afternoon or evening to be on here! :toasting:

Seems like a lot of great advice! Northern GSDs- that Ellis video was fantastic! I could spot some of the subtleties- probably not all of them, but some. It seemed when Rush didn't get a full bit, Ellis kinda pushed the pad or whatever further into his mouth before continuing. That seems like it could work. And the distraction stuff- like having to walk on those plastic bottles to get to tug was so cool!

Castlemaid- this also sounds like a great method:


> When the dog does not bite properly (i.e. with only the front canines), you don't engage her. Freeze, lock your arms, and stop tugging. She will want to get the tug from you and may try to get a better grip on the tug by re-adjusting with a fuller bite to get a better grip. The INSTANT she re-adjust with a deeper, fuller grip, let her win with a big show of GOOD GIRL


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Another Mike Ellis video on tugging: 





I wouldn't worry too much about having a "full bite" if the dog is really tugging with you. And the secret to getting the dog to tug with you is you have to know how to play tug yourself. Watch Lindsey in the video. She is really good at it and her movement is very smooth. Watch how she keeps the tug alive and moving EVEN after the dog has it in her mouth. It's the play/competition against the handler and the prey-ish movement of the tug (side to side movement; small pulsing of the tug) that will make the dog want to clamp down, bite harder, bite deeper. I see a lot people play tug by standing straight in front of a dog and statically pull away against the dog ... the only thing that does is put the dog in defense (even when just playing) and you're never get a full bite doing that.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

More good advice! I often pull away from the dog's mouth- not side to side. I DO pull side to side, but not always. Especially not in agility class where everyone looks at me weird as I am jerking around this big GSD with a tug right next to their dogs! Looks like I need to work on my method better! Thanks Jason!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think a lot of people model their tugging after the tug of war game they used to play as kids in gym class - where you line up against another person, each grab one end of the rope and just pull straight back. Now this may be kind of fun with someone who is your size or smaller than you but imagine doing this against Shaquille O'Neal. I bet your grip on the rope would be frontal too lol - why? because you are just trying to hang on! Forget about actively tugging, you would just be happy to not get flipped over and fall flat on your face. It's the same when a 60lbs dog is tugging with a 180lbs person. As a handler, you can either make tugging really fun or really miserable for the dog - depending on how you do it.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Jason L said:


> I think a lot of people model their tugging after the tug of war game they used to play as kids in gym class - where you line up against another person, each grab one end of the rope and just pull straight back. Now this may be kind of fun with someone who is your size or smaller than you but imagine doing this against Shaquille O'Neal. I bet your grip on the rope would be frontal too lol - why? because you are just trying to hang on! Forget about actively tugging, you would just be happy to not get flipped over and fall flat on your face. It's the same when a 60lbs dog is tugging with a 180lbs person. As a handler, you can either make tugging really fun or really miserable for the dog - depending on how you do it.


What a great explanation. I like that, Jason.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there's more to tugging (and biting) than full mouth grip, especially if you are not doing SchH. Even when I play tug w/ my SchH dogs I am not really picky on the biting and gripping. I do sometimes freeze and let them "fill up" their grip, but not because I worry about it, only because often they will naturally re-grip anyway, and if I freeze and let them do it I don't risk getting accidentally nipped when they release to re-grip and there's all this force from me tugging so I go back and move the target where they aren't expecting it. Hopefully that makes sense. I think Jason's point about how you play is the most important thing, especially if you are doing this for fun and for reward (not for bite development...and IMO most of how a dog bites its genetic). When I play w/ my dogs at home I get really dramatic about it. The other day I let Nikon pull me onto my stomach and then he actually dragged me across the yard while I was lying there holding on. I was laughing so hard but he was grunting and tugging. I let Pan pull me over too and give him vocal encouragements like, "whoa....wow...strong dog!" Sometimes I see people that are actually putting a lot of pressure on their dog by having the dog tug directly in front and holding the tug close to their body, leaning over the dog. Depending on the dog, sometimes I tug sideways and then as the dog gets into that inch-worm back type tugging, I allow the dog to pull me forward and move me around without leaning way over the dog and never giving an inch. When they are fighting hard I let go and let them win. Then I praise and clap (I'm such a dork! But my dogs seem to like it) and the dog circles back to me and shoves the tug back into my hands.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

I used to think that the grip on the tug had a lot of carry over into the bitework. But I noticed that when the dog was in the right mind set about the the bitework, they bit the sleeve great and the tug like crap. I think that dogs that really believe that their bites have power tend to take play biting seriously. And if I put a sleeve on, my dogs will barely bite me.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

*Dog bit handle! Also, can I use tug for bite without handle?*

I just purchased a 16" tug with one handle, similar to the one my trainer uses. In no time, she has bitten into the handle and made a big nick! She might have chewed on it for a moment... Has that ever happened to anyone? The tug is bite suit material, the handle not so heavy. Is this defective? What happens if the handle tears?
I am trying to work on her bite and her drive. She loves the tug, but she tends to bite with her front teeth and I want her to bite "deeper". Can you just hold the tug at either end ( not using the handle) and encourage her to bite it? It is 4" in diameter. She is 11 months old. Advice appreciated!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

4" in diameter? 16" long? You're carrying around a tree!! :rofl:
With 16" of bite space, I am not sure why you would care about the handle. Seems you should have plenty of room to hold on.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

nygoldengirl said:


> I just purchased a 16" tug with one handle, similar to the one my trainer uses. In no time, she has bitten into the handle and made a big nick! She might have chewed on it for a moment... Has that ever happened to anyone? The tug is bite suit material, the handle not so heavy. Is this defective? What happens if the handle tears?
> I am trying to work on her bite and her drive. She loves the tug, but she tends to bite with her front teeth and I want her to bite "deeper". Can you just hold the tug at either end ( not using the handle) and encourage her to bite it? It is 4" in diameter. She is 11 months old. Advice appreciated!


This is a bit tug for a dog to start on. A lot of dogs are not comfortable taking a big tug like that in their mouth and will target the smaller and softer handles. Normal that it can get nicked or torn, and no reflection on the quality of the tug. Just because a tug is built for bitework, that does not mean that it is chew-proof if a dog is allowed to chew on it.

And absolutely you can just hold the tug itself at both ends. At 16 inches, that should not be a problem at all! 

If your girl is hesitant to bite the tug, try smaller ones, and different materials that may be more to her liking.


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