# Kyleigh 5 month old future protector - Part 2



## karmitch

she certainly is beautiful!


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## stolibaby

you're baby looks a lot like mine does now....definately a gorgeous puppy you have there!


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## Cassidy's Mom

I believe soccermom's daughter was posting on her account in defense of her mother.


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## soccermom470

This is true! She's a great girl and a very passionate one at that! Sorry about that!


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## Cassidy's Mom

Who is your breeder? Do they have a website?


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## VomBlack

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Who is your breeder? Do they have a website?


I'm curious as well, you mentioned her being from good lines, but I must admit the faded pigment throws me off quite a bit.


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## GSDGunner

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Who is your breeder? Do they have a website?


Yes, that would be great to see.


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## Wolfgeist

I am a certified Animal Care Technician, currently employed at a local animal hospital and worked at a humane society for four years. I have seen the results of careless breeding first hand, and watched beautiful dogs die on the table or are euthanized shortly after from genetic conditions that came directly from bad breeding. 

I have also seen up to 20 animals A DAY be euthanized at the humane society - so I implore you, PLEASE leave the dog breeding to the professionals. If you want another dog like your beloved girl, ask the breeder for another from the same sire and dam.


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## Courtney

Wild Wolf said:


> I am a certified Animal Care Technician, currently employed at a local animal hospital and worked at a humane society for four years. I have seen the results of careless breeding first hand, and watched beautiful dogs die on the table or are euthanized shortly after from genetic conditions that came directly from bad breeding.
> 
> I have also seen up to 20 animals A DAY be euthanized at the humane society - so I implore you, PLEASE leave the dog breeding to the professionals. If you want another dog like your beloved girl, ask the breeder for another from the same sire and dam.


Thank you for your post, as sad as it is, but a sad reality.

My brother's friend had to have their 2 year old GSD euthanized because of SEVERE HD. A 2 year old dog???


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## PaddyD

Courtney said:


> I'll bite because I made a "hope this is a joke" comment.
> 
> I'm a Human Resource Generalist for a Aerospace company.


yikes


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## Butterfly

Congratulations! You are now the epitome of a BYB. 
Loving your dog is not a free pass to breed them.
Come on lady, I'm 17 freakin' years old and _I _know better than that.
You may love the breed. Heck, I love the breed. But that doesn't mean I want to breed the heck out of my future pup.

Spay your dog. 



soccermom470 said:


> I really thought this would be a great place to talk to other GSD owners who love their dogs as much as we love ours! But, I was so wrong, everyone has an opinion that's great and now we are being labeled as BYB. And for some people to say we dont love the GSD breed really has no idea how much we do! Maybe some people should take a class on how to talk to people! Have a great day!


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## soccermom470

The breeder is Von Dorans AKC German Shepherds, [email protected]


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## PupperLove

soccermom470 said:


> Not being bullheaded! Will not be a BYB! Maybe the baby momma was not a good intro to oursleves, to the forum. Fine, we will take the blame for that! We havea sense of humor, maybe some people dont! We have received feedback and have posted back, maybe that was wrong too! Some things said have been harsh some not so much. I know everyone here wants to have the best GSD's out there! Like I have stated before everyone has opinions and we do also! But, for some to think we dont care about the breed or love the breed just amazes me! I love looking and the different colors of the breed and seeing all the members dogs! Its great, I do think there are trolls out there who just like to pick and be cruel just like in everyday life! The facts are no one knows us, and for people to judge or label still just makes me wonder what they do for a living! I do take everything that is said to heart, maybe that's just me! Thank you for your opinions!


The only thing that people are judging from is the content from your previous posts. So far you have said absolutley nothing about what your dog is bringing to the breed, what your plans are as a breeder, and what you plan on doing with your bitch to prove that she is going to improve the GSD breed and maintain the standard. If she can't do that, then you are a BYB. And to say that people are degrading your family is crazy. Nobody mentioned a word about your family.


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## gsdraven

http://www.vondoransgermanshepherds.com/


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## PupperLove

Well it looks like she came from a BYB, so that alone is a great reason to spay her.


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## GSDGunner

> Lines includes V, VA1, V12, VA5, VA3, TDI, CGC, TT,SchH1, SchH2, SchH3/FH/HGH/IP3, HGH.


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## Wolfgeist

gsdraven said:


> http://www.vondoransgermanshepherds.com/


After looking at the website I feel my heart grow heavy. From what I see, that is a backyard breeder. This person will indeed breed her dog, likely sell the pups for cheap, and help undo the incredible legacy and hard work of our reputable breeders.

It's a sad day.


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## soccermom470

Im sorry for being bull headed! I did/and I do want help and advise on breeding my girl! If anyone would be willing to advise or help I'm asking please for advise and help, again I'm sorry!


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## gsdraven

soccermom470 said:


> Im sorry for being bull headed! I did/and I do want help and advise on breeding my girl! If anyone would be willing to advise or help I'm asking please for advise and help, again I'm sorry!


Our advice was given. You didn't like it. The advice is don't breed her, she isn't breed worthy. Breeding for a fault (whites or light pigment) like your breeder is doing really narrows the gene pool and usually is done at the sacrifice of much more important things such as temperament and workability. 

If you ignore our advice (as I suspect you will) at least do health checks and demand the same of the stud. Please carefully evaluated your dog's (and the stud's) temperament and if there are any signs of fear or agression PLEASE don't breed them as this is passed on to their offspring and creates a whole new generation of unstable dogs.


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## Courtney

From the breeder website:

*Full Registration: This puppy is purchased with full AKC registration. Within two (2) years from date of purchase, should your puppy develop hip dysplasia or any genetic skeletal disorder, upon receipt of (1) a letter from a duly licensed veterinarian attesting to such condition (copies of x-rays may be required), (2) a copy of the O.F.A. evaluation report, (3) a spay or neuter certificate and (4) the AKC registration certificate on such puppy, you will receive a replacement puppy of equal or greater value from our next available litter. Exclusion: There are NO guarantees on a female puppy once she has been successfully bred. By signing of this contract, you agree that a female puppy will be adult before breeding and that you will only be breed once a year to promote her health and the health and quality of her offspring. By signing of this contract you also attest that you are not a puppy mill or puppy broker and that both females and males will be kept in good health and in a clean environment. *


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Soccermom- glad you are still here. 

I think you have some serious misinformation in terms of shelter animals in your area. There is an urgent section of this board - feel free to browse - these are only the GSDs that get posted here, there are lots other GSDs that don't. And lots of GSDs who do not make the adoption floor because they get killed immediately for temperament or health issues or space concerns (not enough room at the shelter). 

But that's okay - I would say a high percentage of people have some kinds of bad information - no one wants to think of what the reality is!

Definitely keep asking these questions. 

No one will likely advise you to breed your girl. She IS very pretty. What I would ask that you consider - when she gets a little older - is to volunteer for rescue or work at the shelter for six months. 

Go to GSD events - dog shows, agility, flyball, Schutzhund, meet as many GSDs as you can. Start reading and studying the breed, the lines. As you go you will see all there is to learn and know. 

Take classes with your dog - title her in something, do therapy work - but don't breed her. If you decide after all of that, you still want to breed, you will probably want to start looking for a young female old enough to see as a potential breeding prospect and go from there.


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## GSDGunner

I've been corresponding back and forth with soccermom and in all honesty, she is a nice person, caught up in the fight here and feeling defensive.
I must say, she seems very genuine and is willing to learn.

The fact she got her girl from a BYB is probably going to be a shock to her.
I think at this point it's better to educate her and hope she sees that her girl should be a loving pet and nothing more.

I hope she sees that what we are doing here is for the best interest of her girl. 
Not everyone knows what a BYB is and more than enough people here probably didn't know either when they got their dog.
Maybe it would be beneficial to explain what to look for in the event she was not bred from the best. Nobody wants to see her end up the victim of bad breeding.


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## krystyne73

It's always good to be VERY well informed in any business or personal venture you take in life. 
Breeding a dog effects everyone and should be left to professionals. I really don't see how that is confusing?
I really like my car, but in no way should I try to duplicate it in my back yard...I will buy one from the car industry...(since dog breeding was compared to the automobile industry)

I am not trying to be offensive, but having personally PTS many dogs at the humane society, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you hear about people breeding their dog.


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## Mac's Mom

soccermom470 said:


> Im sorry for being bull headed! I did/and I do want help and advise on breeding my girl! If anyone would be willing to advise or help I'm asking please for advise and help, again I'm sorry!


Soccermom, I do not know you so I do not know if you are feeling now what I felt when I first brought Mac home over a year ago. I was soooo excited about Mac and my life revolved around him. I was convinced that Mac was the most intelligent and handsome dog that ever walked the earth and he should be a Stud. I thought maybe I could even do it for a living and spend all of my time with Mac and other dogs and life would be bliss! 

I have a friend who used to breed dogs professionally so I told her my desire to breed Mac. Looking back, I'm sure she was biting her tongue. But at the time, she gave me the benefit of the doubt. She asked me thought provoking questions regarding blood lines, etc. And carefully explained why thats important. She patiently explained all of the responsibilities affilated with breeding. I was exhausted just listening to it. She kindly took the wind of out of my sails and helped me come to the conclusion that while Mac is an amazing dog, breeding should be left to the breeders. I wonder if there are any breeders near you that you could have a heart to heart talk with. Hopefully this makes sense.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GSDGunner said:


> I've been corresponding back and forth with soccermom and in all honesty, she is a nice person, caught up in the fight here and feeling defensive.
> I must say, she seems very genuine and is willing to learn.
> 
> The fact she got her girl from a BYB is probably going to be a shock to her.
> I think at this point it's better to educate her and hope she sees that her girl should be a loving pet and nothing more.
> 
> I hope she sees that what we are doing here is for the best interest of her girl.
> Not everyone knows what a BYB is and more than enough people here probably didn't know either when they got their dog.
> Maybe it would be beneficial to explain what to look for in the event she was not bred from the best. Nobody wants to see her end up the victim of bad breeding.


Good for you Linda! I agree, she seems like a perfectly nice person with a perfectly nice dog, who is simply uninformed about BYBs - what they are and how they harm the breed. I hope that you're right that she's willing to learn, and that once educated, she will change her mind about breeding.


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## soccermom470

Thanks to all for your feed back I'm just heart broken right now!


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## Cassidy's Mom

There is no need to be heartbroken. Your love your girl and she's the same dog she was yesterday and last week. I love my dogs dearly and the fact that they may not breedworthy does not change that in the slightest because they are very special to me. :wub:


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## soccermom470

I do thanks!


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## LaRen616

Cassidy's Mom said:


> There is no need to be heartbroken. Your love your girl and she's the same dog she was yesterday and last week. I love my dogs dearly and the fact that they may not breedworthy does not change that in the slightest because they are very special to me. :wub:


Exactly.

I love my byb boy. :wub:


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## Lin

Red flags from the breeders site.... 

On the "our dogs" page, it states nothing about any titles or health clearances. No OFA/pennhip. What makes these dogs breedworthy? And if they were breedworthy, why isn't it being advertised?! Casual pet photos, none stacked to be able to judge conformation. Dogs exhibit clear breed standard faults.

States titles/certifications of dogs in the pedigrees... ("Lines includes V, VA1, V12, VA5, VA3, TDI, CGC, TT,SchH1, SchH2, SchH3/FH/HGH/IP3, HGH.") But that means nothing if the actual dogs have done nothing. So again its if the dogs HAVE proven themselves, why isn't it being advertised? On the "pedigree of puppies" page many of the links don't work, and its just linking to pedigrees of related dogs and not the actual parents... Not to mention the page is bizarre and nearly impossible to follow. 

On "how to pick a puppy"



> *Am I welcome to come and visit the puppies at any time?*
> _Not until the puppies have received their first round of shots. Diseases can be transferred from a sick dog rubbing against someones clothing and then transferred from visitors clothing to puppy._


There is no immunity after one round of shots. And it takes time for immunity to build after vaccinations. 



> *How many litters do you have a year?
> *_Depending on how many females. No more than once per year per female. Should not own more than 5 adult dogs total in order to give good socialization and care._


5 dogs? Maybe this breeder could not own more than 5 adults, but many others do and even train, show, and title more than 5 adult dogs. 



> *If breeder claims to give all shots themselves, again it's time to run unless they are a licensed vet. *


There is nothing wrong with giving shots themselves, provided they have documentation on proof of vaccination including the labels from the vials of the vaccine. 

It seems this breeder wishes to be doing the right thing, but has a long way to go still while seeming incredibly judgmental of other breeders. My purpose in this post is not to "pick apart" the breeder, but explain why myself and many others would NOT consider this breeder to be reputable.


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## GSDGunner

soccermom470 said:


> Thanks to all for your feed back I'm just heart broken right now!


Like the others have said, don't be. She is still your baby girl, will be a loved and cherished member of your family. The only difference is now you know where she came from and know (in your heart) you should not breed her.

So your family and friends won't get a puppy. So what? If they are serious about having a GSD puppy, now you can show them how to get a puppy from a reputable breeder. You've learned a lot here and now know what to look for.

I commend you for sticking around and listening.


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## Bomber

Nice looking pup. On the other hand I didnt know this was a communist country where only the assigned are allowed to breed....lol. 

My puppy is a purebred... pure enough for me. He has no papers. Hes never going to vote, drive, or leave the country so not having papers is not a problem for me. 

If people want to breed they as US citizens have that right....same with the dogs  If a person doesnt like it... they have that choice to move to a country where all the choises are made for them. 

Seems like a harsh attack against someone that wants their dog to have puppies.


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## KZoppa

soccermom470 said:


> Thanks to all for your feed back I'm just heart broken right now!


 
dont be heartbroken. I got Shasta from an accidental litter. Her parents are both very beautiful dogs but her mother is a fault dog. She's washed out. Doesnt make her any less of a GSD, it just made her a dog who shouldnt have been in the position to be bred. Shasta is amazingly smart and beautiful and i love her to death and would like to have a pup related to her but she will never be bred. I dont want the faults in her genetics to be passed on further. Least not by me. For her siblings i have no control on what their owners do. I didnt know any better at the time when i brought her home but i've learned a great deal on this board. I've learned which lines i prefer personally for myself and exactly what i plan to look for in my next pup. I even have a couple breeders i'm looking pretty heavily at. i also know having a litter of land sharks running around is not something i want to deal with. Its too much. One land shark is plenty to handle most of the time. Stick around. learn. you'll be amazed that even having 3 shepherds, you'll learn more than you ever realized you would. and you'll learn probably more than you care to know but will be grateful for it in the long run.


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## LaRen616

Bomber said:


> Nice looking pup. On the other hand I didnt know this was a communist country where only the assigned are allowed to breed....lol.
> 
> My puppy is a purebred... pure enough for me. He has no papers. Hes never going to vote, drive, or leave the country so not having papers is not a problem for me.
> 
> If people want to breed they as US citizens have that right....same with the dogs  If a person doesnt like it... they have that choice to move to a country where all the choises are made for them.
> 
> Seems like a harsh attack against someone that wants their dog to have puppies.


:thumbsdown:


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## valreegrl

soccermom470 said:


> Thanks to all for your feed back I'm just heart broken right now!


No need to be. I have 2 Shepherds (and 2 non-Shepherds), none of which came from a breeder, 3 are rescues and 1 (my Chi) came from a BYB 11 years ago. None are AKC, none are breed worthy but I still love them just as much as if they were. And strive for each to be the best dog-citizens they can be (no, they are not military material!). 

Your pup is very pretty


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## LaRen616

Bomber said:


> Nice looking pup. On the other hand I didnt know this was a communist country where only the assigned are allowed to breed....lol.
> 
> My puppy is a purebred... pure enough for me. He has no papers. Hes never going to vote, drive, or leave the country so not having papers is not a problem for me.
> 
> If people want to breed they as US citizens have that right....same with the dogs  If a person doesnt like it... they have that choice to move to a country where all the choises are made for them.
> 
> Seems like a harsh attack against someone that wants their dog to have puppies.


Yes, anyone can breed their dog, but it's not the right thing to do.


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## Lin

(in response to bomber) Its honestly not about attacking the OP, its about educating them. Its just that everyone is so passionate about the dogs and especially the breed that it can get heated. 

None of my dogs have or have had papers. None of them have been breedworthy. That didn't make them any less of pets. The pet overpopulation problem is HUGE, as is the problem with the current GSD reputation and irresponsibly bred dogs. Going the extra mile to prove your dog is breedworthy helps ensure that the puppies have the best possible chance for a long and happy life. Its only the responsible thing to do. Would you knowingly breed a dog with a health or temperament defect that is going to pass on to the puppies and probably result in them ending up in shelters and euthanized? If not, why is ignorance an excuse? If so, well than nothing we can say is going to sway you anyway.


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## valreegrl

Bomber said:


> Nice looking pup. On the other hand I didnt know this was a communist country where only the assigned are allowed to breed....lol.
> 
> My puppy is a purebred... pure enough for me. He has no papers. Hes never going to vote, drive, or leave the country so not having papers is not a problem for me.
> 
> If people want to breed they as US citizens have that right....same with the dogs  If a person doesnt like it... they have that choice to move to a country where all the choises are made for them.
> 
> Seems like a harsh attack against someone that wants their dog to have puppies.


Let me guess.....you have never been through a shelter, witnessed the dogs as they take their last walk down the aisle, seen the horrific conditions puppies end up in through inexperienced hands. 
Do some research and then state that claim.


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## GSDGunner

Lin said:


> (in response to bomber) Its honestly not about attacking the OP, its about educating them. Its just that everyone is so passionate about the dogs and especially the breed that it can get heated.
> 
> None of my dogs have or have had papers. None of them have been breedworthy. That didn't make them any less of pets. The pet overpopulation problem is HUGE, as is the problem with the current GSD reputation and irresponsibly bred dogs. Going the extra mile to prove your dog is breedworthy helps ensure that the puppies have the best possible chance for a long and happy life. Its only the responsible thing to do. Would you knowingly breed a dog with a health or temperament defect that is going to pass on to the puppies and probably result in them ending up in shelters and euthanized? If not, why is ignorance an excuse? If so, well than nothing we can say is going to sway you anyway.


Well said. :thumbup:
Unfortunately there are always going to be people who think this way.
So best to let sleeping dogs lie!


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## DTS

i have a question about the breeder website for their "guarentees". it says that a full registration pup can be chcked for HD within 2 years of purchase date. and with the required vet documents ofa reports x rays and spay or neuter cert. and akc papers you will recive a pup of equal or greater value from the next litter. 

however,

Limited registrated pups are required to test for HD within the 1st year, and if only the HD is so bad the dog needs to be euth. you must provide a vet letter, euthaniasia documents and the akc registration before you recive a "replacement pup" if the pup has mild conditions it wont be replaced. 

i guess i dont understand. why does the full registrated dog not need to be killed in order to be replaced. i mean maybe im neive but what would you do with an HD dog. or would they seriously breed it? and if you bought a full registration pup why the certificate of spay or neuter? 

also, can they even properyl diagnose HD or anyother joint problems like this at a year?

can someone give me some insight to this because im seriously confused on this contract. 

http://www.vondoransgermanshepherds.com/Puppy_Contract.html


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## Wolfgeist

Bomber said:


> Nice looking pup. On the other hand I didnt know this was a communist country where only the assigned are allowed to breed....lol.
> 
> My puppy is a purebred... pure enough for me. He has no papers. Hes never going to vote, drive, or leave the country so not having papers is not a problem for me.
> 
> If people want to breed they as US citizens have that right....same with the dogs  If a person doesnt like it... they have that choice to move to a country where all the choises are made for them.
> 
> Seems like a harsh attack against someone that wants their dog to have puppies.



Please, let's not start up a brand new debate here. Try and read through all of the comments in this thread and understand why they are saying not to breed just any dog.


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## codmaster

Very illuminating debate about people breeding their dogs!


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## sitstay

You know, I would like to say also that when I was younger and heavily involved in AKC conformation showing, it was pretty common to meet people who first became attracted to showing when they purchased an AKC registered dog for the first time.

They came to a few shows with their dog (maybe puppy matches), got feedback from other owners, handlers and judges and discovered that their well loved dog was just not show quality and not breed worthy. But they were hooked on the breed, enjoyed the whole competition environment and went on to purchase from a breeder that knew what they were doing. They had become plugged into the dog world and had help.

They didn't love that first dog any less. They did better when they knew better. The dog that got it all started would never be bred, and was often fixed, but certainly had a place in their hearts and home. 

So, just because you find out that the wonderful, loved pet you have isn't show quality and not breed worthy, that doesn't mean that you can't follow your passion with a better dog. Your passion for the breed shouldn't be dependent on what you can do with that first dog, should it? Love the dog you have, and appreciate the ambitions that dog has planted in you. But if you want to breed, do it with a better dog.

There are many, many responsible and reputable breeders that got their start in the dog world in just this way. 
Sheilah


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## Lauri & The Gang

soccermom470 said:


> Im sorry for being bull headed! I did/and I do want help and advise on breeding my girl! If anyone would be willing to advise or help I'm asking please for advise and help, again I'm sorry!


You love your dog and the breed so that's a great start to becoming a breeder.

The first thing you have to ask yourself is what TYPE of breeder do you want to be? A *mediocre *one that produces puppies or an *outstanding *one that works to better the breed, constantly challenges themselves to prove their dogs are worthy of being bred and have people recommending you to all their friends. What YOU want to be will determine how much work you have to put into becoming a breeder.

*Mediocre Breeder Requirements*

Purchase a female and a male (not from the same parents)
Do the basic health testing - OFA, CERF, VwD and cardiac
Put the Male and female together and hope they breed
Birth the puppies
Sell the puppies
Repeat


*Outstanding Breeder Requirements*

Purchase a top quality adult female that has proven their breed worthiness by having health certifications, breed surveys/AKC or UKC CHs and working titles (on HER - NOT on her ancestors).

*OR*

Purchase the top female puppy from parents that have proven their breed worthiness by having health certifications, breed surveys/AKC or UKC CHs and working titles (on THEM - NOT on her ancestors)

Raise the puppy to adulthood and complete the health certifications (CERF, OFA, VwD and cardiac). Get breed surveys or AKC/UKC Championships on the bitch to prove she has the correct structure that a GSD should have. Compete and title in a sport that proves she has the correct temperament and brains that a GSD should have (Obedience, Schutzhund, Tracking, Herding, Agilty, etc.). Canine Good Citizen is NOT an obedience title and does nothing to prove breed worthiness.


Now that you have a good female to work with you need to find the RIGHT male - not just something that has 4 legs, 2 testicles and a penis.

NO dog is perfect so you need to research and find out what needs to be improved in the bitch, what you want to keep at all costs and what you can give a little on. And it's not just YOUR bitch you need to look at. You need to look at the other puppies from the litter. How did they turn out? How did other puppies from the Dam turn out with a different sire? How did other puppies from ther Sire turn out with different Dams?

You are not just dealing with the genes inside your dog. You are dealing with the genes (good and bad) from all your dogs ancestors.

Once you find the right male (and you can bet it won't be one you own) you can either ship or take the bitch to the male to be bred or you can have semen shipped to you for artificial insemination. Both of these options are costly.

You will do an ultrasound to confirm pregnancy then later do an xray to get a general idea of how many puppies to expect.

You will start advertising and have a waiting list before the puppies are born. You will weed out the people who would not make good owners, the people who want a 'mean' dog, the people who want a bitch so they can sell puppies. You will check vet and personal references and call landlords to be sure the people are ALLOWED to have a GSD if necessary.

You will attend the whelping, documenting each puppy as it's born - time, weight, sex, coloring/markings.

You will continue to weight each puppy once daily until at least 2 weeks of age - making sure each is gaining weight appropriately.

Starting at Day 3 you will put the puppies through the Super Dog program every day. These activities are designed to help stimulate the puppy physical and mental development.

You will also be exposing the puppies to as many new things as possible every day during their first 8 weeks. Different surfaces, different people, different places, sounds, sights, smells, objects, animals, etc.

You will take the puppies to the vet several times to get them acclimated to going and not being afraid of them. 

You will take them for car rides to get them acclimated to it so they don't get car sick on their first ride home.

You will get the acclimated to being crated; separated from their siblings so their first night in their new home is less traumatic.

You will chart the emotional and mental development of each puppy - how it behaves in the pack and how it behaves on it's own.

By the time the puppies are 8 weeks old and ready to go *YOU *will know which puppy should go to which purchaser. A good breeder does not allow the purchaser to pick just any puppy - they match the RIGHT puppy with the RIGHT owner (although sometimes there may be 2 or 3 'right' puppies for a specific owner).

You will keep in touch with the new owners, answering any questions they have and offering advice on any problems that arise - for the entire life of the dog.

You will take back ANY dog you've ever bred, at any time and for any reason. If you brought it into this world it is ultimately *YOUR *responsibility. You keep tabs n the owners and dogs throughout their lives to make sure nothing is amiss.

You allow your first litter to reach the age of at LEAST one before deciding to breed again so that you can evaluate what your bitch produced.

You look at the litters strengths and weaknesses and use that to determine what male to use next (if there IS a next).


So, WHY does an outstanding breeder go through all that work? Because they want to *BETTER THE BREED* - not just produce puppies.

If you can't produce better than what you have - don't just produce more of the same.


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## Castlemaid

what Laurie said! Not a word of exageration - that is the criteria of a good and responsible breeder who not only cares about their dogs, but about the BREED as a whole, and about every puppy they are responsible for. 

It's a lot of work, not to be taken lightly!


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## wyominggrandma

I bred both Shelties for almost 15 years and produced champions and have also bred Bernese. Believe me, this is not something that is cheap or money making. If you do it right, the expense of having a good litter of puppies, after all the testing of the parents, then hopefully a normal delivery, then raising puppies until at least 8 weeks old, and that includes cleaning up after a litter of pups once mom has decided to stop taking care of them about the time they are weaning themselves, vet checks, shots , food and everything else and it is very expensive.
But even if you decide to not worry about costs and just want to breed one very very important thing to consider: are you willing to risk losing your girl to have puppies? Although the mutt down the street can have 10 puppies out in the cold in the garage and they all live, sure as can be, you will breed your girl and have a nightmare time of it. Losing the bitch during birth, having a c section and losing the bitch and having to hand raise a litter of pups, losing the pups and the bitch or losing all the puppies. Is the thought of breeding so worth possibly losing the girl that you love dearly. And then you have to think about things going wrong and losing the babies. They do die and it can happen very fast to an even experienced breeder, let alone someone who is not experienced in breeding and whelping and raising a litter. Babies die in a matter of hours if they get to cold don't nurse strongly, get intestional infections, any number of things can make you lose a baby. I have had babies that I had to hand feed because they were so small at birth and couldn't nurse from mom, you do this for almost two weeks and they die. Cleft pallets and you have to have them put down. Mom stepping on them or even worse attacking babies and killing them. I am sure that other breeders can tell you horror stories of losing moms and babies , as I can. It can be devastating. My best friend had a Bernese bitch have to have an emergency c section, the bitch died on the table and she then had to hand feed around the clock 12 babies. She was able to save the whole litter, but after a few weeks of this she was ready to no longer breed. Are you willing to take back at puppy at any time in its life when the owners don't want it anymore? Responsible breeders take back puppies anytime for any reason when they are no longer wanted. Are you willing to give health guarantees for those puppies? You will have to do testing for the parents before breeding them, so they have to be at least 2 years old, then you can give guarantees. If you aren't going to breed after the first litter, then you will have to figure out a way to give the purchase price of a puppy that has gotten HD or any number of genetic diseases if you don't have any puppies
Just remember, breeding your pet no matter how much you love her does not always turn out good, tragedies do happen and then you might have nothing left.
If you do decide to breed her, find a mentor with lots of experience and ask for hands on help. Go to their kennel and clean and scoop and watch and learn day to day workings of a responsible breeder. See dogs being bred, watch a bitch having puppies, watch and see the daily care it takes to have a litter. Then go to rescue/humane societies and see the huge amount of GSD's in them and see the other purebred dogs hoping to find new homes that come directly from breeders who have bred "princess fluffy toes to Prince whatshis name" because family members want one just like yours. For every person who says they want one of your puppies, you better have two or three more standing in line because you will not believe the excuses you will hear when their new puppy is waiting to go home. Another reason there are hundreds of purebred dogs in pounds/humane societies/rescues, all of a sudden the breeder is stuck with a bunch of messy puppies when nobody wants them and ends up sitting outside a grocery store in a parking lot trying to sell the puppies out of the trunk of the car.
There are plenty of excellent quality GSD's available from reputable breeders that the ecomony has made puppy sales drop way down, don't think that your puppies would sell any better or faster.


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## marshies

I think soccermom got the message about breeding.

Your dog isn't any less gorgeous, or any less special. You can still do all of the things you would have done otherwise for your dog. Just because she doesn't come from titled parents, doesn't mean you can't train her, show her, compete with her. 

Good luck with this dog! If you're serious about breeding and your love of GSDs, once you've got this dog figured out, you can buy a dog from a reputable breeder, title and health check it, and then look into becoming a breeder.


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## selzer

DTS said:


> i have a question about the breeder website for their "guarentees". it says that a full registration pup can be chcked for HD within 2 years of purchase date. and with the required vet documents ofa reports x rays and spay or neuter cert. and akc papers you will recive a pup of equal or greater value from the next litter.
> 
> however,
> 
> Limited registrated pups are required to test for HD within the 1st year, and if only the HD is so bad the dog needs to be euth. you must provide a vet letter, euthaniasia documents and the akc registration before you recive a "replacement pup" if the pup has mild conditions it wont be replaced.
> 
> i guess i dont understand. why does the full registrated dog not need to be killed in order to be replaced. i mean maybe im neive but what would you do with an HD dog. or would they seriously breed it? and if you bought a full registration pup why the certificate of spay or neuter?
> 
> also, can they even properyl diagnose HD or anyother joint problems like this at a year?
> 
> can someone give me some insight to this because im seriously confused on this contract.
> 
> http://www.vondoransgermanshepherds.com/Puppy_Contract.html


This is speculation: You pay more for a dog with full registration from this breeder, because you may be a breeder or you may want to show, and hopefully both. So ANY hip dysplasia would be bad, and they are allowing you two years to get at least an OFA Fair. If that does not happen, you do not NEED to return the dog, but provide the x-rays, and the ofa evaluation, and the certificate of speuter, and the akc registration papers, and they will replace the pup -- not sure if that is the exact deal. I do not understand why they want the AKC paperwork back if the dog is speutered they are not using it to make puppies. 

A dog without crippling hip dysplasia still makes a good pet.

So for pet people -- who would be paying less money I guess, if the pup has Crippling hip dysplasia, has been ofa'd at a year, has been euthanized, they will give another pup I think. 

It is not very good for pet people, not terribly bad for full-registration people.

I am guessing they want to be sure the dog was really bad off, and the people are not just trying to get a second dog for free.


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