# Orijen LBP with Raw...Guidance needed!



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I'm formulating some feeding plans, and the latest one I've been tossing around is feeding Orijen LBP mostly, with raw meaty bones and maybe tripe for the occasional meal/snack.

My main motivation for feeding Orijen is as a student, and next year a young professional, life can get quite hectic. I'm not sure I will be able to guarantee that I'll always have the time to do raw economically and right. I want to be able to offer a complete food for my dog with some sort of nutritional guarantees, especially in her puppy stage. 

Ultimately, though, I would LOVE to feed raw. I think it will be most feasible to try and transition next May, when Amaretto will be close to 9 months, and I have reduced "accounting bootcamp" school load. I'll have more time to make sure I'm feeding correctly in the beginning and freezer space to economically do raw.

At the current stage though, I would like to feed at least some raw meaty bones with Orijen to help clean teeth and give Amaretto a good workout during feeding.

I have read through resources for raw feeding...but I'm not sure how to incorporate the meaty bone in and still keep her diet in balance.

I know some of you guys on the board feed raw and kibble together, and would love to hear and learn from your experiences. 

Thanks for your time!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If it were me, I'd go all or nothing with raw. There are very specific ratios you need to incorporate when doing a raw diet. Feeding a kibble that's already on the very upper calcium borderline for large breed puppy and adding even more calcium (bone) to that diet is not something I'd mess around with. 

If you're going to add some raw to a kibble diet, i'd just do something like ground beef, turkey, or chicken on top of that kibble. Just feed a little less kibble when adding that extra raw meat, but I'd skip the bones. That's me though.

As for the LBP formula, I'd just skip that and go with the regular adult formula. I think there's even less calcium in the adult formula than the LBP for whatever reason. 

Less is more when it comes to calcium - you want a nice slow bone growth.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Thank you! 

I'm hesitant to do this for exactly the reasons you mentioned, the proportions of nutrition in diet, and the calcium limit for the breed.

I don't think I want to add anything else raw really. I just want to be able to give maybe a meaty bone every day or 2 to help clean teeth. 

Do you think that'll significantly impact the calcium levels?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm not an expert when it comes to the science of dog food, you might want to talk to dr. sable about that, but common sense tells me more bone means more calcium. Orijen already has a lot of calcium (for a pup) and adding more bone is only going to up the amount of calcium that puppy gets. The exact amount of extra calcium... that I couldn't tell you for sure.

As for the teeth cleaning, bully sticks are great. I give lucy one once a week as a treat to chew on. I brush them once or twice a week too. I give her nylabones and deer antlers to chew on at all times and all this stuff helps clean teeth. She'll be 4 this march and eats orijen and her teeth are still pearly white with no tarter and in great shape. No need for added raw chicken bones.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Honestly throwing a chicken quarter in a couple times a month isn't going to ruin the dog. If you did it EVERY DAY then of course it would become a problem but if you gave him one like once a week or something it wouldn't hurt anything.

I do agree with brushing the teeth a couple times a week though! Not a fan of nylabones though, the idea of chewing on plastic just doesn't sit right with me. I remember dogs coming into the kennel with half chewed nylabones and it worried me to death that they were going to get an impaction from eating them.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I have Monica Segal's pamphlet for supplementing a kibble diet. She says you can feed up to a 50% raw diet (balanced with meat, bones, and organs)

In regards to the extra calcium in the bones- I think it's the calcium/phosphorous ration that is to be concerned about in growing dogs and the meat has the phosphorous.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Keep in mind teeth cleaning isn't a huge issue until they get their adult teeth anyway.  I wouldn't stress too much over keeping a little puppy's teeth clean.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

No thoughts on raw feeding, however as far as keeping a puppies teeth clean. You'd be surprised how cleansing human flesh is. So if he takes a good nip or two at you every day, which he will, his puppy teeth will sparkle nicely Not too mention the flossing benefits of wearing wool sweaters, Sherman has lovely flossed teeth, I have bruised skin and holey sweaters!


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

mysweetkaos said:


> No thoughts on raw feeding, however as far as keeping a puppies teeth clean. You'd be surprised how cleansing human flesh is. So if he takes a good nip or two at you every day, which he will, his puppy teeth will sparkle nicely Not too mention the flossing benefits of wearing wool sweaters, Sherman has lovely flossed teeth, I have bruised skin and holey sweaters!


:rofl: Very true! 

Though I do recommend BRUSHING now so he gets used to it for when the adult teeth come in!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I feed a pre made raw in the morning and a kibble at night. The kibble is fromms gold formula and the raw is made by fresh is best. It comes in tubes that I thaw and give to my dog. A 32 lb box costs about the same as orijen and he eats about a pound a day. I did research and to make DIY raw cheaper than what I pay I would have to order meat in the hundreds of pounds and I don't have anywhere near enough freezer space for that.

The pre made raw has a good balance of nutrients without me having to do all the thinking so to me it's worth it, and I have had no issues with this type of diet from day one.


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

I'm also considering doing a half raw/half kibble diet due to financial reasons. meat/chicken/turkey here is super expensive, in fact i can buy a 6lb kibbles with the same price of a 1lbs of meat.
I'm considering raw feeding in the morning and kibble at night (Earthborn Holistic), because water will be limited at night anyway, and resting so less risk of bloat???? maybe?

Earthborn seems to have less calcium content than most kibble and it's grain free, adult and puppy food are one and the same. would this be a good idea?


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## Dodson (Dec 2, 2011)

nitemares said:


> I'm also considering doing a half raw/half kibble diet due to financial reasons. meat/chicken/turkey here is super expensive, in fact i can buy a 6lb kibbles with the same price of a 1lbs of meat.
> I'm considering raw feeding in the morning and kibble at night (Earthborn Holistic), because water will be limited at night anyway, and resting so less risk of bloat???? maybe?
> 
> Earthborn seems to have less calcium content than most kibble and it's grain free, adult and puppy food are one and the same. would this be a good idea?


Feeding raw and kibble isn't ideal. 

Check out the facebook site for RAW FEEDING. They do not support kibble and raw feeding, but this is a international group and several other people from all over the world including Egypt have found ways to make it work! You may also be able to find someone willing to co-op with you!
Tons of GREAT information!

Good luck!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Marshies, I would go one or the other .


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## Dodson (Dec 2, 2011)

Forgot to add the link to the FB page : https://www.facebook.com/groups/261761471359/


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

The only downside I see to feeding half and half is the chance that your dog decides they don't WANT to eat kibble anymore. 

Otherwise I see it as being a simple case of math.

Figure out what you would feed if you went solely raw - and divide that by half. Then figure what you would feed if you went only kibble and cut that in half.

Then put the two halves together. 

If you want to go less than 50/50 it's a little harder but it's still just a case of math.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Thanks guys!

I'm still considering different feeding plans.

@Dodson, thank you for the link! I am already a member of that group and have posted the same question there as well.

@ Carmen, I want to go all raw. But I'm a very quantitative gal, and feel insecure without the guaranteed nutritional analysis on the back of dog food packages. 

I have 14 more days to decide, and will likely come back and ask more questions.

In the mean time, for anyone else pondering the same options, the FB page that Dodson linked is an EXCELLENT tool.

If you are in the Toronto area, we have our own raw feeding group for resources and support. https://www.facebook.com/groups/108041129308835/


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

Dodson said:


> Feeding raw and kibble isn't ideal.
> 
> Check out the facebook site for RAW FEEDING. They do not support kibble and raw feeding, but this is a international group and several other people from all over the world including Egypt have found ways to make it work! You may also be able to find someone willing to co-op with you!
> Tons of GREAT information!
> ...


Thanks dodson 
Yes I am a member cause my cat is Raw fed, but with a cat it's relatively cheaper than a GSD that requires at least 1.5 kg of meat daily.
Talked to dumpty's breeder about feeding, she does a mix of kibble/raw/home cooked and said I could skip the kibble all together and just feed raw/home cooked. so we'll see how that goes. I'm not back home yet, so we're still on complete kibble diet. so as soon as i go home I'm start doing my calculations and maybe try it for a week and see how much that cost. 
I know on a 100% kibble diet (RC or Earth hilostic) it will cost me around 250 LE per week. That's approx the price of 3kg of meat or a 3 day worth of raw feeding.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I agree with Lauri, there's no real problem with feeding raw and kibble as long as you feed appropriate amounts and your dog will still eat kibble.
I've been feeding a mix of kibble (in the same meal) with either raw, homemade food, premade raw, or canned for years with no problem.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

nitemares said:


> Thanks dodson
> Yes I am a member cause my cat is Raw fed, but with a cat it's relatively cheaper than a GSD that requires at least 1.5 kg of meat daily.
> Talked to dumpty's breeder about feeding, she does a mix of kibble/raw/home cooked and said I could skip the kibble all together and just feed raw/home cooked. so we'll see how that goes. I'm not back home yet, so we're still on complete kibble diet. so as soon as i go home I'm start doing my calculations and maybe try it for a week and see how much that cost.
> I know on a 100% kibble diet (RC or Earth hilostic) it will cost me around 250 LE per week. That's approx the price of 3kg of meat or a 3 day worth of raw feeding.


For me it's the exact opposite!
A bag of Orijen LBP will last me 24 days, and cost about 3 dollars per day.
It's hard to find meat other than chicken for under $2/lb if I buy from Metro. I live in a university town, and frequent the chain grocery store closest to school. The prices are ridiculous there.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You have to special order in large quantities in order to bring the cost down to about the same as the higher quality kibbles. Until you have a huge freezer chest, this won't be possible. Even ordering meats in amounts that would fill a standard size fridge freezer wouldn't bring your cost down that much. Look into the premade stuff, I think I average about 2 bucks a day feeding that and then another 1-2 bucks for the breakfast kibble meal.

Unless your dog is genetically deficient in a certain nutrient (can't absorb for one reason or another) there should be no problem feeding a mix of things. If you notice issues you should be able to figure out where they come from and then realize what needs to be changed. I personally have no issues, mine is pretty much a garbage disposal and can handle many kinds of food without stomach problems. We rotate the protein that the premade raw is made of every few months just to give him variety.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I feed TOTW in the evenings and RAW in the mornings. Part of my reasoning is that at least this way I know my dogs eat in the morning, however I cannot afford to go RAW all the way. One bag of TOTW lasts me normally a month this way so it is cost effective for me. I get a lot of my meat and bones from people that I either know or from Craigs List replies. I am very careful who I accept meat from on Craigs List and never ever go alone to meet some one who is donating to us. However, I am also looking into changing the kibble portion to another brand because of the high fat content and the fact that my female has opaque rings on her cornea's that is thought to come from a high fat content in her food.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Mixing Raw and Kibble is not something that I would recommend at all.

Raw foods naturally digest a LOT faster than kibble and for good reason. The dogs digestive system uses a combination of faster digestion and stomach acids to ensure that bad bacteria does not have a chance to accumulate from the raw meat sitting in the gut. When you feed kibble the digestion rate slows considerably (from 3-5 hours on raw to 8-10 hours on kibble) so you are essentially giving the bad bacteria time to grow by slowing down the raw food in the gut, as it then digests at the same rate as kibble.

If you would like to supplement with raw (I do this too!), feed the meals as close to 12 hours apart as possible. This is not a sure fire way to avoid issues, but it is definitely a best practice.

I also agree with a previous poster, that as long as your calcium/phosphorus ratios are balanced in your raw, they should not affect your kibble and visa versa.

I think that adding variety to your dogs diet is very healthy, and this can be done. Every diet has its pros and cons, so make sure you choose what is most comfortable for you to work with.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

N Smith said:


> Mixing Raw and Kibble is not something that I would recommend at all.
> 
> Raw foods naturally digest a LOT faster than kibble and for good reason. The dogs digestive system uses a combination of faster digestion and stomach acids to ensure that bad bacteria does not have a chance to accumulate from the raw meat sitting in the gut. When you feed kibble the digestion rate slows considerably (from 3-5 hours on raw to 8-10 hours on kibble) so you are essentially giving the bad bacteria time to grow by slowing down the raw food in the gut, as it then digests at the same rate as kibble.


I've read that this is a myth. Monica Segal even addresses it in her supplementing a commercial diet pamphlet- which I suggest buying if you are supplementing a kibble diet.

Though there's nothing wrong with feeding them in two separate meals either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I was told not to mix the two, as in give both in one meal, but giving regulated meals of one at breakfast and one at night is fine. Dogs digest so fast that by the time its time for that second meal there probably isn't any of the first one left in the stomach/intestine anyways.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I've read that this is a myth. Monica Segal even addresses it in her supplementing a commercial diet pamphlet- which I suggest buying if you are supplementing a kibble diet.
> 
> Though there's nothing wrong with feeding them in two separate meals either.


I know people who have done it for years with no issues - then there are others that had their dogs die, or almost die, from mixing the two. At least that is what the vet diagnosed it as.

I think that ist can be done, but with an added risk, and there are enough risks as it is when it comes to feeding dogs these days, why add another...LOL


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

N Smith said:


> Mixing Raw and Kibble is not something that I would recommend at all.
> 
> Raw foods naturally digest a LOT faster than kibble and for good reason. The dogs digestive system uses a combination of faster digestion and stomach acids to ensure that bad bacteria does not have a chance to accumulate from the raw meat sitting in the gut. When you feed kibble the digestion rate slows considerably (from 3-5 hours on raw to 8-10 hours on kibble) so you are essentially giving the bad bacteria time to grow by slowing down the raw food in the gut, as it then digests at the same rate as kibble.
> 
> ...


my plan was raw in the morning and kibble or home cooked at night for the reason mentioned above and because water is restricted as well (heard that its recommended not to let dog drink too much after kibble meal).


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## gsd_newbie (Aug 23, 2011)

I have a friend who recently brought a GSD puppy home at 08 weeks old, and as a die-hard fan of B.A.R.F I recommended her to feed that puppy on RAW, but then she asked a question which I have no answer. She asked: "According to kibble bag's back, the amount to feed depends on the age of a puppy, and such amount is changing until the puppy get one year old. And for RAW, the amount to feed seems to equal on puppy and older dog, if one follows the instruction to feed around 3% of ideal adult weight. Why so?"

Please someone educate me on this. Thanks


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I do TOTW with some canned Wellness 95% meat or Merrick working dog stew with green tripe mixed in and Olewo once a day. They each get a bully stick every couple of days and a raw bison knuckle bone about once a week. There's also always some other "long-term" bones and chewies around when they want to chew on something. Once a week bison knuckle is more than enough to keep their teeth clean and sparkly


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I do TOTW with some canned Wellness 95% meat or Merrick working dog stew with green tripe mixed in and Olewo once a day. They each get a bully stick every couple of days and a raw bison knuckle bone about once a week. There's also always some other "long-term" bones and chewies around when they want to chew on something. Once a week bison knuckle is more than enough to keep their teeth clean and sparkly


Which long term chews do your pups like?
She only seems to really spend ALOT of time on raw bones, and I've been giving them to her once a day these last few days because I needed to down time to study. I've tried Orbee bones (soft and squishy, thought she'd like), Nylabone Flex Chews, Robe toys, cloth, etc.

She likes the rope and cloth the most, so I guess along those lines. But she won't chew on either of those if I put her in her crate. A real bone is the only thing she'll engage with in her crate...

What to do?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Xuan...the rope bone and "soft tugs" are not meant for her to play alone with....
She really likes them...but they are "interactive" toys.....*we* play *with* the puppies.
She will get bored of toys that have "no life" of their own....that is another reason she would rather chew on the RAW bones.....*those* are not toys, they are yummy!!
Although...they all do love to find "natural toys" and things to play with outside....a whole world full of those!
_*sticks, rocks, dried mud, eeek droppings,....you get the idea....*_


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Xuan...the rope bone and "soft tugs" are not meant for her to play alone with....
> She really likes them...but they are "interactive" toys.....*we* play *with* the puppies.
> She will get bored of toys that have "no life" of their own....that is another reason she would rather chew on the RAW bones.....*those* are not toys, they are yummy!!
> Although...they all do love to find "natural toys" and things to play with outside....a whole world full of those!
> _*sticks, rocks, dried mud, eeek droppings,....you get the idea....*_


LOL. She picks up the grossest things on walks in the city. Moist tissue balls...I had to take that away from her. SUPER disgusting.

We have more luck with the cloth and rope toys, she'll chew on them by herself for a while, but with a bone, she'll go the hour. I;m worried that giving her a bone a day isn't good for her...should I be concerned about throwing her calcium/phosphorous ratio out of whack since I already feed Orijen?

Should I try bully sticks? Pig ears? Antlers? What will give the workout and enjoyment of a bone...without any potential health side effects? Or do you think the bone is okay?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The bone is fine...good God, we've given our dogs bones for years....never worried if they had too many of them to chew on.
Make sure that they are not "all actually digested though......find some hard, thick RAW femur bones...she can't "eat" all of it.
NO PIG EARS...ever. NO RAW HIDES...ever.
Bully sticks in moderation......antlers??? never tried them.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

For short term:
Bully sticks are a huge hit, but they go through that like butter which sucks since bully sticks can be expensive. I buy bulk and a pound costs me about 35$. 
They LOVE bison knuckles and that keeps them busy for 2+ hours. I like them better than femur bones because the marrow gives them horrible runs and they put on weight fast with too much marrow. Also the rounded edges clean the teeth better imo than long bones. There is just enough meat on them to keep them chewing, but not overly so that they will have the runs or put on weight. 
Filled Kongs, Busy Buddy chuckle, and Squirrel dudes. Tried and true. But they throw it aside once the goodies inside are gone.
Zukes Z bones. Goes pretty quickly but helps with breath. 
Carrots. Frozen or regular. They all love these. 
Apples. Skinned and cored. They like taking these apart also. 

For longer term:
Nylabones. I have a few different kinds to satisfy everyone's chewing preferences. 
Deer antlers. Expensive but last and last. 
Chilly bone. Good for teething. 
Femur bones with marrow removed. I fill them with a little smear of peanut butter or liver and that occupies them for a long time. 
Everlasting treat ball

Anything with a squeaker, rope, foam, cloth, cheap plastic or easily destroyed: only allowed when I'm around to watch them. They will destroy a flimsy toy in a split second so I have to be super vigilant.


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