# Curious about Pricing between SL and WL GSD's??



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I am partial to Showlines mainly because that is what I grew up seeing and grew to love and working lines seem more fit for more active lifestyles than what i would be able to handle. I do love the sable looks, though! However, I've noticed in a few threads that Showlines are generally priced much higher than Working line GSD's. I'm curious to know why that is??


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Because people are suckers


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Its the high cost of olewo?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

But if working line dogs were priced the same, do you think people would not buy them? I mean they seem to have become increasingly popular in the GSD world? They seem fit to serve so many working purposes, that one would think that they would be the higher priced line?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Its the high cost of olewo?


What is olewo?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Tihannah said:


> But if working line dogs were priced the same, do you think people would not buy them? I mean they seem to have become increasingly popular in the GSD world? They seem fit to serve so many working purposes, that one would think that they would be the higher priced line?


If working lines are becoming increasingly popular, it is mostly because of the Czech/DDR/Black Sable craze. It is the pet dog breeder that is stepping up to breed the dog of the right colour and the dog of the right background for the masses, and pricing it at pet dog prices, well below what working lines from knowledgeable people with working dog experience, breeding working dogs are priced at. 

The people who are looking for working dogs that can actually work tend to be more knowledgeable in what to look for, and have a good idea of what the pricing for such a dog is.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Tihannah said:


> What is olewo?


Oh I was joking; its a carrot supplement that is supposed to make oranges more orange in the coat (as well as other benefits) -- it is also not expensive.

I don't know why they are more expensive - other than a market thing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think titling WL's is just as (if not more)costly than what the SL breeders do as far as conformation titles.... are the SL breeders are charging large due to the 'titles'? Though sending a dog off for SchH titles vs HOT must run higher money. And I don't know of many or any WL breeders that send a dog to Germany for titling.
Noo.... Justine and Nancy probably nailed it!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Ooops, just fed my WLs some olewo tonight. Oh, well, I like a pretty working dog!

There are now so many people in my area without GSD experience buying and breeding and successfully selling pups from the showlines due to the market for them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Tihannah said:


> However, I've noticed in a few threads that Showlines are generally priced much higher than Working line GSD's. I'm curious to know why that is??


Huge world wide demand. The show dogs, especially the high placing dogs, are very much in demand and people are willing to pay high prices to get them. They are also in demand for the pet market. If breeders have to pay 6 figures to buy good males and 5 for females the puppies are going to be much more expensive. They also are paying handler fees, trainer fees (since most don't title their own dogs), etc. 

There just isn't as much of a demand world wide for the working line dogs.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Huge world wide demand. The show dogs, especially the high placing dogs, are very much in demand and people are willing to pay high prices to get them. They are also in demand for the pet market. If breeders have to pay 6 figures to buy good males and 5 for females the puppies are going to be much more expensive. They also are paying handler fees, trainer fees (since most don't title their own dogs), etc.
> 
> There just isn't as much of a demand world wide for the working line dogs.


Ahhh, I see... Thanks, Lisa.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Also be aware all WL dogs are not too much dog and SL dogs still require a huge amount of dedication to exercise and training. No matter the split between the two both lines have varying drives within them. My girl is WL and 17 months of intelligence...and energy. A day like today where it POURED all day meant I had to be creative inside with lots of OB because she was restless and becoming obnoxious,lol However, on so so weather days she does fine with one good run and has an off button inside. Decide what your looking for in a dog and find a breeder willing to match you with the right dog regardless of line


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> Because people are suckers


Now, now, now , who you calling a sucker, it costs just as much to feed a beautiful dog as an ugly one.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> Now, now, now , who you calling a sucker, it costs just as much to feed a beautiful dog as an ugly one.


So the WL peeps still come out way ahead


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Its demand but also supply, there are a lot more Sch titled dogs then there are champion show dogs. Therefore you have a much greater supply of working line dogs that are good where as you only have a few pups each year from champion parents and the like. In the normal people world telling your friends you have a pup from champion of x show is cooler then stating your pup is from Sch parents since most people don't know what Sch is.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> So the WL peeps still come out way ahead


you get what you pay for. I'm sure not complaining.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Because they can.
The tourism and export of "product" (dogs) is big big money . There is a snobbery to own one of the "worlds" greatest cham pee yons , the Sieger or Siegerin's sons or daughters . No expectation other than black and red . Nothing special about the lines - they are all intensely genetically connected anyway . Then there is the ability to be part of the franchise , breed them . As a breeder the pups fly off the shelves at a young age , no work required. 

There are pups P U P S going for close to the price of one of my working dogs , worked with for a year or more, x rayed hips and elbows, highly socialized , ready to go into a real field of work - and guaranteed to graduate / certify with what ever it is , police, or specialty detection.
Lots of ads on the pedigree data base showing dogs in movement - yikes - so far from good , high and short stepping (not ideal , correct or energy efficient), dogs looking like the are the jesus walk on water lizards , 



 the front end elevated , or a plane taking off . 
But it will continue , demand creates supply . 

olewo is carrot powder 

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes it is supply and demand. Showline dogs have titles, even schutzhund titles. But our lines have the siegers as well. To the general public that is just impressive. I think too is the attitude that a show dog can be titled, but a working dog cannot win in the ring. 

The working line people assasinate the character of the showline dogs and attack the structure of the dogs, but they still bring more money at the end of the day. So attack the motives of the breeders and attack the intelligence of the buyers. 

In all fairness there are breeders of all the lines whose motives are in question.
The average puppy buyer's knowledge is usually pretty questionable.
There are dogs with poor structure and poor nerves in all the lines. 
There are good breeders and good dogs in all the lines too. 

The German showline owner, the American Showline owner, the Working line owner all look down at their dog and say, they are the best. And they are all right.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

The bottom line is ANY animal is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, people can be angry, bitter, jealous or whatever they want to feel and think, but it's all supply and demand, and if people love the Showlines, like me, than they will pay for them, I don't care what training or accomplishments a working line dog has for less money, I don't want that dog, just like I don't want a certain type of Arabian, but mine. I hate that people knock other peoples choice of dog because it's not there's, that is so completely
ridiculous, we all have our own ideals into what is OUR perfect German Shepherd, and people ultimately put their money where they want to, I am
happy with my dog, as I'm sure everyone else is, and that's fine.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I agree with Larhage, "I hate that people knock other people's choice of dog." I'm just sick of that attitude. My husband prefers WGSL above all others, my best friend prefers Irish Wolfhounds and sometimes things get tense. Me, I just love most dogs. They all have something to offer.
As to the question of cost, someone said that I could buy a horse with what I paid for my dog. I said, "I don't want a horse."


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you can choose what ever you like, however the very nature of the dog is different and THAT is what I don't like. 
I could buy and or breed showline and make a profit from it , but I do not , because I do not feel that the show lines are bred for nor represent the ideals of the temperament and character of the breed . by and large as there are some fine animals capable of work in G showline and even some very nice ones in the american show. You have to look hard to find them though.
Carmen


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> Because people are suckers


Wow, snotty much? If you don't have anything constructive to add to a discussion you might consider saying nothing at all. Fortunately other people have tried to answer the OPs question instead of just mocking her for her choices. 

And BTW, how much did you pay for your new puppy including international shipping? I'll be it wasn't that much less than she paid for hers. The difference in price between my show and working line dogs was $190 - not that significant, IMO.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Carmen...I will agree *and I have primarily WGSL*...they are out there....but you do have to look, to find them....and one must work hard to maintain the proper balance.
I have found similar problems in finding solid, strong WLs.....
_I know what I want, and I'm not willing to compromise....so the search is even_ _harder._ When we are in *question*?...of a particular dog or lineage....we seek the correct & truthful answers.
We have been blessed with the personal resources from a reliable, knowledgeable friend in Germany...and...the respected knowledge I look for from a *forum member* in determining which "dogs" produce what....

*Breeding is hard work....as it should be.
JMO


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

carmspack said:


> you can choose what ever you like, however the very nature of the dog is different and THAT is what I don't like.
> I could buy and or breed showline and make a profit from it , but I do not , because I do not feel that the show lines are bred for nor represent the ideals of the temperament and character of the breed . by and large as there are some fine animals capable of work in G showline and even some very nice ones in the american show. You have to look hard to find them though.
> Carmen



And again, that would be your choice and your
opinion, not mine, so you continue to breed your fine dogs for people that love and appreciate that type of dog, and I'll continue to support the breeders who produce my type.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

As for the OT....
The price of puppies is completely determined by the breeders of the litter or bloodlines.
Our puppies are extremely lower in the *average* price of SL breeders in the area.
SL or WL....a solid, sound puppy can be found from either....
Personally....I love both & will always own both....but I'm very strong in my conviction. I want excellence in both conformation and temperament.
FWIW


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so excellent to hear that Robin. Knowing that I will refer people to you that are looking for a show line . I don't snub them all. A good friend in British Columbia uses WGSL in her breeding programme , and they are interwoven with my lines , so blends, and they do work. The dog we put into SWAT , and his brother just joined the same team , are a result of hardcore working on the dam , and show on the sires bottom -- even more interesting is that the sires sire is a multi high in trial schH 3 whose sire is from Bastian Odenburg - old herding , and Vashta Specialblut - to old herding , and his dam was working american show.
This male Rampa , was always recognized by tough working judges in schutzhund and brought to onlookers attention.
This male is used in many of my dogs.
My friend got a few dogs from Inger Olavvson (spelling?) Olympus -- 
The dogs could work . Missing are the days of Marko Cellerland, Mutz Pelztierfarm, Dingo v h Gero, B Lierbergs (although these are the foundation of many a working dog). I know there are others of this great era before the Wieneraus and Arminius derailed things.
I have females that are mixed with all of these components so it is not a purerest attitude . They have proven themselves . They populate high levels of schutzhund and real work. 
What I don't like is the volume breeding , marketing , based on colour and prestige of title and the idea that things are just fine .

For the end user of course it is ONLY the individual that has any importance, no matter where they come from.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> SL or WL....a solid, sound puppy can be found from either....
> Personally....I love both & will always own both....but I'm very strong in my conviction. I want excellence in both conformation and temperament.
> FWIW


*standing ovation* :thumbup:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Brava, Robin  Totally agree with you  We'll have dogs of all three lines in this house before the end of the year!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wow, snotty much? If you don't have anything constructive to add to a discussion you might consider saying nothing at all. Fortunately other people have tried to answer the OPs question instead of just mocking her for her choices.
> 
> And BTW, how much did you pay for your new puppy including international shipping? I'll be it wasn't that much less than she paid for hers. The difference in price between my show and working line dogs was $190 - not that significant, IMO.


lol. Take yourself too seriously much? OP asked about why showlines are "much higher" priced than working lines. I didn't realize we were talking about ones that were $190 more.

Sorry, but in my opinion the people paying $8000 for a "champion extroidinare prospect", $6000 for a "champion amazing prospect" and so on are nothing but suckers. Sorry if you don't feel that way. And interesting how certain people have managed to turn it into a showline vs. working line debate--I would feel the same way if people were paying 6000-8000 for an 8 week old working line puppy to. But I've never anything even close to that...where I have seen SEVERAL showline breeders with prices that are very on par with the examples I just gave.

And since YOU feel the need to be a snot, my imported little working line dog, including international shipping cost me a grand total of $1300. Ooops, I'm sorry $1345 after the customs fee. 

And BTW, I also feel people who are buying 8 week old puppies from certain working line breeders for $3000 are suckers too...from a certain unnamed breeder who has a plethora of complaints against him and what he is producing--it's all about the $$.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> The bottom line is ANY animal is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, people can be angry, bitter, jealous or whatever they want to feel and think, but it's all supply and demand, and if people love the Showlines, like me, than they will pay for them, I don't care what training or accomplishments a working line dog has for less money, I don't want that dog, just like I don't want a certain type of Arabian, but mine. I hate that people knock other peoples choice of dog because it's not there's, that is so completely
> ridiculous, we all have our own ideals into what is OUR perfect German Shepherd, and people ultimately put their money where they want to, I am
> happy with my dog, as I'm sure everyone else is, and that's fine.


He is freaking BEAUTIFUL too, I might add.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Seriously how do you know that-how does anyone know why someone is breeding. And maybe the people who pay that amount are ok with paying that amount it does not make them suckers


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> The bottom line is ANY animal is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, people can be angry, bitter, jealous or whatever they want to feel and think, but it's all supply and demand, and if people love the Showlines, like me, than they will pay for them,


Well, first off, another :rofl: ...I don't think anyone is angry, bitter, or jealous. 

I happen to know your breeder isn't one of the showline breeder charging $8000 for an 8 week old puppy, so not even sure how you yourself getting defensive even applies to this thread.

And you'd still be a sucker if you decided to pay that.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

holland said:


> Seriously how do you know that-how does anyone know why someone is breeding. And maybe the people who pay that amount are ok with paying that amount it does not make them suckers


Yes it does. When you can get a great showline for a reasonable price from -ahem-people like Heurta Hof and Alta Tollhaus for a reasonable price, they have great conformation, and good working ability....

you ARE a sucker for paying those prices from the commercial kennels.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Maybe I should have been more specific in my questioning. I think most of us can agree that paying $5k to $8k for an 8 wk old puppy is outside the norm, and I have seen very few if any reputable known breeders charging that. My question I guessed revolved around working lines ranging from $1000-$1500 and Showlines ranging from $1200-$2500...in general as puppies.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

LARHAGE said:


> The bottom line is ANY animal is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, people can be angry, bitter, jealous or whatever they want to feel and think, but it's all supply and demand, and if people love the Showlines, like me, than they will pay for them, I don't care what training or accomplishments a working line dog has for less money, I don't want that dog, just like I don't want a certain type of Arabian, but mine. I hate that people knock other peoples choice of dog because it's not there's, that is so completely
> ridiculous, we all have our own ideals into what is OUR perfect German Shepherd, and people ultimately put their money where they want to, I am
> happy with my dog, as I'm sure everyone else is, and that's fine.


This post is exactly how I feel. We have had these conversations at my schutzhund club. About why people choose different dogs. This is exactly what I said and it made everyone nod and agree.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I prefer the working lines but feel that each person should make his or her own decision knowing the merits and deficiencies that tend to be in the different lines.

All I hope for is people are educated and KNOW the relative focus breeders put on the attributes of animals in their lines and do have an issue with breeders bashing each other. 

That said, I see NO ROOM for personal insults. Personally, if someone HAS $8000 to spend on a puppy they are doing something I am not doing because I can't put together that kind of money.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

This was posted elsewhere on the same topic. Of course there was some back and forth on the quality of the lines. I found this very informative and interesting, so thought I would share.

There was a time when WL shepherds were MUCH more expensive than SL. ( early 70's) We had a glut of Horrid quality WL border patrol line dogs imported in the 5 digits.* These dogs were down right vicious animals that were VERY handler aggressive.* My belief is that is where the idea that Working Line dogs were out of control monsters came from.* ( again this is my perspective only)* I stopped training all working line dogs at that time for my own safety.* In the 80's the show line dogs became much more prevelent and at that time they had exceptional temperment. Controllable and trainable with bites that would rival the best WL of today. People were no longer interested in the WL dogs at that time as they had a bad rap (and deserved the reputation!) On to the 90's now everyone and their dog is importing SL and the temperment starts to hit the skids in the search for the almighty buck.* The WL dogs being imported were really good as the culling process was hard, no one wanted one.* Only the best of the best were now being bred, temperment was closely monitered. yup i started training them again. *Sooooo now we are in the year 2011.* Showline dogs are going back up in quality as far as bite work and WL dogs are maintaining the good temperments.* Yup there are bad ones in both SL and WL but I'm sure we will see the scales tip back into the high priced WL dogs as soon as trainers recognize their qualities again.* And*I might add WL are getting to be just a hunky as the West German showlines.* They are no longer the long lean coyote lookin critters of yester year!** Demand almost always sees a drastic shift in quality.*


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Tihannah said:


> This was posted elsewhere on the same topic. Of course there was some back and forth on the quality of the lines. I found this very informative and interesting, so thought I would share.
> 
> There was a time when WL shepherds were MUCH more expensive than SL. ( early 70's) We had a glut of Horrid quality WL border patrol line dogs imported in the 5 digits.* These dogs were down right vicious animals that were VERY handler aggressive.* My belief is that is where the idea that Working Line dogs were out of control monsters came from.* ( again this is my perspective only)* I stopped training all working line dogs at that time for my own safety.* In the 80's the show line dogs became much more prevelent and at that time they had exceptional temperment. Controllable and trainable with bites that would rival the best WL of today. People were no longer interested in the WL dogs at that time as they had a bad rap (and deserved the reputation!) On to the 90's now everyone and their dog is importing SL and the temperment starts to hit the skids in the search for the almighty buck.* The WL dogs being imported were really good as the culling process was hard, no one wanted one.* Only the best of the best were now being bred, temperment was closely monitered. yup i started training them again. *Sooooo now we are in the year 2011.* Showline dogs are going back up in quality as far as bite work and WL dogs are maintaining the good temperments.* Yup there are bad ones in both SL and WL but I'm sure we will see the scales tip back into the high priced WL dogs as soon as trainers recognize their qualities again.* And*I might add WL are getting to be just a hunky as the West German showlines.* They are no longer the long lean coyote lookin critters of yester year!** Demand almost always sees a drastic shift in quality.*


Very informative and interesting post. thank you for sharing


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Tihannah said:


> Maybe I should have been more specific in my questioning. I think most of us can agree that paying $5k to $8k for an 8 wk old puppy is outside the norm, and I have seen very few if any reputable known breeders charging that. My question I guessed revolved around working lines ranging from $1000-$1500 and Showlines ranging from $1200-$2500...in general as puppies.


Thank you for clearing that up.  Because you said "much higher" I assumed you were referring to those SL breeders who are starting their litters at 3-4K and going up from there...sometimes much more. I actually think there are more than you think (at least in the 3-4K range...admittedly not all have a tiered system). I actually do not think that the price range that you are actually talking about is that significant. I think the range of "average" working line is more like $1200-$1800, with $1500 as being the "most average" price. I can think of 3 WL breeders that range from $2500-3500. There might be more, but they are definitely not the norm. 

So to ME the difference between what you are talking about --$1800 vs. $2500 at the top of of both isn't necessarily all that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Why the discepancy is there at all? Not sure. Personally think it's like a chain reaction--SL breeders (if not getting dogs from their own litters all the time) are paying more upfront costs on the dog to begin with, so naturally a higher price on puppies is somewhat warrented if you spent $2000 more on a green dog than a working line breeder did.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There is a way around the high prices. Know your dogs, understand German Shepherd character and know your breeders and what they produce. I have seen a lot of people who paid a relatively high price for a dog of poor temperament and quality,and lacking in appropriate German Shepherd character. This is an important thing to avoid no matter what the lines are.

At times there may be special dog who you feel really meets your needs and that you want to work with thus are willing to pay for. A friend paid a pretty penny for a show dog puppy once. Most people would have said a pup is not worth it. But, she won with the dog at many shows. She travelled all over and had a great time. Even achieved a Grand Victrix win with the bitch. It was well worth it to her. She could have gone through a number of lesser cost pups and never done all that! It is rather a personal thing. 

If one doesn't have the dog knowledge though, they might be ripe for the plucking by anyone as far as price. That is what it is too. There are many lessons in life.

Also, markets change over time. Value is relative to a variety of things. Recently saw the bottom drop out of the horse market.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Interesting topic, as I just had a similar conversation with a very knowledgable GSD person. He might have interst in this topic, but I'll sort of rehash what he said.

First, I don't think this person is correct in what they are saying about the 70's. I'm pretty sure (although admittedly not positive--so someone can correct) in the 70's there were NO border patrol (I'm assuming they are referring to Czech Border Patrol lines) dogs coming into the US at all. They were strickly being bred for use by the Czechoslovakian government.

Anyhow. He basically said there wasn't the divide in WL vs. SL in the 70's and even 80's. The SL dogs as a whole still maintained great working ability even though there were still "showline" and "working line" the showline This individual was actually into showline dogs during this time.

He didn't see a deterioration of the showline working ability until the early 90's. It was also at that time that those infamous border patrol dogs were coming over. And the description of them probably isn't too far off of what this person is describing. They were, after all, not being bred for one reason. Not to be a great family pet and protector.



Tihannah said:


> This was posted elsewhere on the same topic. Of course there was some back and forth on the quality of the lines. I found this very informative and interesting, so thought I would share.
> 
> There was a time when WL shepherds were MUCH more expensive than SL. ( early 70's) We had a glut of Horrid quality WL border patrol line dogs imported in the 5 digits.* These dogs were down right vicious animals that were VERY handler aggressive.* My belief is that is where the idea that Working Line dogs were out of control monsters came from.* ( again this is my perspective only)* I stopped training all working line dogs at that time for my own safety.* In the 80's the show line dogs became much more prevelent and at that time they had exceptional temperment. Controllable and trainable with bites that would rival the best WL of today. People were no longer interested in the WL dogs at that time as they had a bad rap (and deserved the reputation!) On to the 90's now everyone and their dog is importing SL and the temperment starts to hit the skids in the search for the almighty buck.* The WL dogs being imported were really good as the culling process was hard, no one wanted one.* Only the best of the best were now being bred, temperment was closely monitered. yup i started training them again. *Sooooo now we are in the year 2011.* Showline dogs are going back up in quality as far as bite work and WL dogs are maintaining the good temperments.* Yup there are bad ones in both SL and WL but I'm sure we will see the scales tip back into the high priced WL dogs as soon as trainers recognize their qualities again.* And*I might add WL are getting to be just a hunky as the West German showlines.* They are no longer the long lean coyote lookin critters of yester year!** Demand almost always sees a drastic shift in quality.*


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Justine,
I did not think that your posts were SL vs WL at all......nor did I "read" anything into this thread being a SL vs WL.
_The costs (in general) from campaigning a SL dog is higher._
We start early on.(as show line enthusiasts)..with fees for this and that show, this and that handler, to and from travel costs, here and there hotel costs..etc..etc.. over and over again before the age of titling. Then comes the titles...(if sent overseas $$$$$)...and eventually, the cycle repeats itself.
Many times the mother or father is also imported prior to the puppy being born....*more expenses*.
Charging a _slightly_ higher price for puppies...would be an acceptable objective.
HOWEVER;.....I don't care how much of an investment a breeder has in their breeding stock.....NO PUPPY should cost the price of some of these outrageous prices being asked. At that point.....you are *NOT* paying or buying a *puppy*...you have just purchased a *franchise* of the *Kennel's name.*
JMO....not meant to offend.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

To each his reach and if you don't cop; its not yours to git!
Funkadelic,1971. LOL
People usually get the dog they deserve....so love them!!!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I often wonder about the few SL breeders I've seen that price puppies from the same litter in categories, i.e. Choice, Select, Supreme with each of these categories listed under a certain ability level. At 6-8 weeks, can you really tell the full potential of a pup as far as competing and titling? And if I were to drop $8k on an ultimate supreme pup, and they turned out to be a "choice" level in the competition world, how does that fair on the buyer and their expectations and how does that breeder then respond to dissatisfied clients? I've never inquired with one of these breeders, so I guess I'm just curious on that as well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> lol. Take yourself too seriously much?


Nope, not at all. But the OP is a friend of mine, and I thought your post was a deliberate slap in the face to her seeing as how she just got a showline puppy and you just got a working line puppy.  Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it came across.

I do agree with you that those tiered pricing systems that start out with the "cheap" puppies at $1500 to $2000 and go up to 3 or 4 times that much, even within the same litter, are ridiculous. That's a discussion we've had on the board many times over the years. That really doesn't have anything to do with the price difference between the lines, and the_ good_ showline breeders that I know of do not price their litters that way. In my experience, that's the exception, not the rule.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Tihannah said:


> I often wonder about the few SL breeders I've seen that price puppies from the same litter in categories, i.e. Choice, Select, Supreme with each of these categories listed under a certain ability level. At 6-8 weeks, can you really tell the full potential of a pup as far as competing and titling?


No you can't, and the only reason for that kind of pricing system is because they can get away with it, because there are people that automatically assume that because something is more expensive it must be better.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> Well, first off, another :rofl: ...I don't think anyone is angry, bitter, or jealous.
> 
> I happen to know your breeder isn't one of the showline breeder charging $8000 for an 8 week old puppy, so not even sure how you yourself getting defensive even applies to this thread.
> 
> And you'd still be a sucker if you decided to pay that.




But price was never brought up, the op asked why the price difference, she never said we were talking about 7000.00 dogs, I wouldn't pay that for any puppy of any line.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No you can't, and the only reason for that kind of pricing system is because they can get away with it, because there are people that automatically assume that because something is more expensive it must be better.


I also wonder how many of these pups go to knowledgeable GSD people, as opposed to people that just want a Champion type GSD, but don't know any better.

In all honesty, I don't tell anyone outside the GSD world how much I paid for my pup. Down here in the deep south, people would think I was nuts, and I don't care to get into along discussion about temperament, health, and responsible breeding. Down here, the only thing you need to be considered a good breeder is AKC papers. I get asked all the time when I'm breeding Kaiya. My butcher is always joking that he's gonna cut off my free meat if I don't give him a puppy. Now that she's spayed, I can just end the conversation at that, but I'm sure when Achilles is grown, the question will be asked again.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Tina, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that virtually all of them are going to the second type of person. Knowledgeable GSD people are going to know that you can get a nice showline dog for much less.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Wait a sec.....are there really people and breeders that trade in pups labeled like cuts of meat i.e. choice, select and supreme...from the same litter??!! At 8 weeks of age?
I had no idea...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yes, there are: German Shepherd* Breeders | German Shepherd Puppies for sale | German Shepherd Puppy | German Shepherds vom Haus Merkel



> CHOICE
> (*Not available in every litter)
> Puppies with superb temperament for Family Pet/Companion/Protection
> FEMALES -$2000(before 8 weeks) $2500(After 8 weeks)
> ...


German Shepherd Puppies, German Shepherd Puppy For Sale



> GERMAN SHEPHERD PUPPY FOR SALE PRICING SCHEDULE
> CHOICE puppies with superb temperament for Pet/Companion/Protection $1500-$2000
> SELECT magnificant puppies for Pet/Protection/Schutzhund/Possible Breeding $2500 -$3000
> *EXCEPTIONAL Show quality Breeding/Schutzhund Prospects $3500 - $4500
> ...


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

What is the difference between possible schutzhund and possible schutzund potential?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Tihannah said:


> What is the difference between possible schutzhund and possible schutzund potential?


$1000? :rofl:

ETA: And I love how the "choice"/family companion dog may not be in every litter, but of course those supreme ultimates always are...don't cha know?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Holy Cow!! I just looked at the second link... They have had, if I counted right, 18 litters since the beginning of the year?! DOB are showing a litter born every week or 2, some in the same week! How can anyone handle that many litters at one time??


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Hired help


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

*gasp* I cant believe that. Are their puppy buyers actually paying that much ? I can't believe that.

If I'm paying that much the dog better be titled, breed surveyed, good hips and elbows, free of genetic problems, and SG or V rated.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

*choice* puppies.....are probably long stock coats or males with retained testicles.......hence the reason they are not available in every litter...??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Isn't it wonderful that we all have a choice on which breeders to support? I'll stay with a hobby breeder that is hands on in every aspect of their program...training and titling included.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and that is why I said that some of these prices are more at 8 - 12 weeks than one of my young adult dogs, x rayed clear , fully socialized , many times evaluated , candidates for service with guarantees that they will graduate and certify with what ever dept they are in. 
If you are paying $8,000 what guarantees does that come with -- that the dog at least makes a VA? How is a dog in that price range guaranteed for hips and elbows? 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

It's crazy Carmen....just plain crazy!....no other logical reason.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I would be quite interested in the outcome of a poll on this topic. A "How much did you pay for your puppy" poll. Maybe include a way to say what lines your pup came from? Would that make the poll overly complicated? I'd set it up myself but it seems like the people on this thread would be a lot more knowledgeable on listing the poll choices...


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

Besides supply and demand pricing is dependant on breeder, and on breeding line. Even in working lines it is possible to pay $6000 or more for a dog from proven working line that has obtained titles in high level competition. That still is no guarentee that you will get the same results with that puppy because environment and training can determine much, but at least one has what they think will be a good start from excellent bloodlines.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm curious as to how many of the 'top tier' pups actually go for anything close to the asking price. It could be little more than savvy marketing where they pull in a few buyers willing to pay those prices & many others wind up with a 'super' deal for one reason or another.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> I'm curious as to how many of the 'top tier' pups actually go for anything close to the asking price. It could be little more than savvy marketing where they pull in a few buyers willing to pay those prices & many others wind up with a 'super' deal for one reason or another.


I too would LOVE to know. But alas I bet those people won't tell us or it would ruin their plan.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

$6,000-$8,000 is ridiculous! That dog better be able to clean the house, do my homework, clean up its own poop and be a super dog.

I think $1,200-$1,800 is reasonable for a puppy that comes a breeder who dedicates their time and effort to health testing, titling and all that comes with being a good breeder.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That goes along with breeders who say they place pups with police depts...maybe they may donate one to be able to say that. 
I do know that people will pay more, because they think they are getting more. I know of someone who paid the upper tier for a showline because she has money, and thought she'd get a better dog if she paid more. His structure is unhealthy(not HD, but a spine problem) and he is very low drive. No way would she return him, as she loves him, but the breeder should be ashamed to charge that price~the dog represents the kennel name...what a joke!
I also know someone who bought a spayed WL SchH titled import for $5000(breeder reject after she was imported) I think that was an extreme price for a dog that isn't able to reproduce and was titled under compulsive methods before import.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I would like to address an issue that continually arises in the WL vs SL debate (which I usually try to avoid).
The consensus that usually manifests, is that the temperament and working ability is lacking in today's SLs. As much as it pains me to acknowledge this sometimes.....it is a sad, true fact.
Many SL breeders do not hold the bar high enough, when breeding themselves or when considering breeding animals for purchase.
The idea of having a "beautiful" specimen & the chance of a "win", has many times clouded the judgement(s) of SL breeders and enthusiasts.
This is hurting the Conformation bloodlines. The dogs are being looked upon as second rate specimens or "faux" German Shepherds....aka...the pretty dogs that cannot/will not work. Until more breeders and owners/trainers/handlers DEMAND more from the dogs and breeding's....this will continue, and our breed will continue to suffer for it.
Now....there is also much "biased" when it comes to WLS too......
I read countless posts over and over about the super WL dogs that people have, coming from excellent pedigrees and strong famous dogs, but alas these dogs suffer from "nerve" & health issues too. The owners post the character "problems" and digestive/health issues these dogs have daily. And many breeders of these bloodlines, do not require any form of "working" titles from their breeding pairs, or participate in any venue for this breed.....it is "not needed"....no "proof" is needed for some of these breeding's, after all...they are WLs....they MUST be born with strong genetics.
My simple opinion is this.......SL breeders NEED to be more "selective" in their breeding practices. A beautiful animal, that wins, wins wins....is completely USELESS in this breed as a whole than it is beneficial.....same goes for the WL breeders. A WL dog that does not "honestly" have the overall temperament & abilities of this breed is just as USELESS.
Some of us "bust our butts" to produce strong, wonderful puppies...that ARE capable of working, and being a productive breed ambassador(s) SL or WL.
Until more actually do the same....our breed will suffer.
"Pretty" dogs will become more incapable of being functional....and the "Working" dogs will no longer be "sound" enough to work either.

Why do SL dogs "cost" more than WL dogs???.....they shouldn't. Great breeding's can & should produce excellent dogs of either bloodline....both are priceless.....and both can be worthless.
JMO.....


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Bravo robin! Excellent post! Balance is needed on both sides!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

My long winded post comes from the countless threads pertaining to the subject.....sorry for that....I just needed to vent.
Here's a perfect example of "why" the GSD enthusiasts need to be more selective.
*This is in regards to us...and a SL stud dog we were importing*.
Story:
We have been on the search to add a new, young stud dog to our kennel.
We have a couple very excellent stud dogs of our own (home grown)...but we must now expand the gene pool.
Researched a very handsome, excellent pedigreed young male SL male, V-rated, ScH3 kkl1. (not cheap $$).
Received pictures, videos and even a personal reference.
We had a very close (wonderful, highly respected) friend in Germany, send her trainer out to meet the dog & actually work the dog before purchase. He reported back...that it was a strong biting dog and worthy of buying......so we sent the money.
Deal done...shipping within 2 days.
Day BEFORE shipping, we get an email from carrier (in Germany)...flight cancelled!!?? OMG! WHY?
We call our friend in Germany concerned and confused.....and she politely replies....
*Carlos...I cannot send this dog to you.* Why? he asks.....
She replies...* This dog has weak nerves, and you will not want him*. *I am disgusted by his character away from his comfort place*. *Does he do bitework?....ABSOLUTELY.....does he have fight drive?...ABSOLUTELY.....but his "nerves" are not strong at all. She offered to give him a few days to see if things change (because he was in new surroundings etc..etc..)...we agreed.
1 week later....no real change....therefore the dog must be returned.
Here is a beautiful dog, titled and from a strong SL pedigree....and we are turning him away, because we want strong, solid nerves along with the rest of the package. Will someone else buy him? probably.
This person in Germany breeds and trains WL dogs, her husband trains and handles Police K9's in Germany......we rely on her opinion as much as ours.
She has met our dogs, and she KNOWS what we desire.
So we continue the search......

Perfect example of how careful we must be in our breeding decisions....it should never be "just acceptable" or "excusable"......it must be completely "reliable & sure".
_Thanks for listening to me...._


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> I'm curious as to how many of the 'top tier' pups actually go for anything close to the asking price. It could be little more than savvy marketing where they pull in a few buyers willing to pay those prices & many others wind up with a 'super' deal for one reason or another.


I think you are spot on. There's a kennel really close to me that advertises show line dogs in pricing tiers like this ($1500-$4800). A few years ago I inquired about a certain litter, asked several very straight forward yes/no type questions about the breeding, but instead of answering my questions I was repeatedly offered a puppy for $1500 that was advertised for thousands more.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

This happens all the time....
You can call an advertisement, and get multiple prices for the same dogs.
*I too am guilty*....we request prices of $1200 to $1800 for most puppies.
The average being $1200 to $1500.
*However;...if I decide to part with one of the "puppies" that I will hold back for myself.....it will cost more $$.
*This is MY puppy....We breed to KEEP...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> That goes along with breeders who say they place pups with police depts...maybe they may donate one to be able to say that.


Onyx I have no idea what you meant by this statement. No police department is interested in a pup -- they want the young adult , fully sociailzed , x rayed clear on hips and elbows, fully tested , ready to go in to training . Even so it is not the "placing" it is the successful graduation of the rigorous training course and certification that counts.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

But for marketing purposes, saying that...in the pet owner's eye...is pretty cool. As is having a dog that has what amounts to a one day "certification" type class in an area (SAR, detection, TDI whatever) but doesn't actually work or do it. Marketing!


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

> We breed to KEEP...


And that is the way it should be! I have to wonder if the breed would be in a better state if all breeders embraced this philosophy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I see all sorts of marketing tricks. One that bothers me is when breeders show pictures of their "foundation dogs" which are dogs that they never bred or owned. Like a super-famous VA1 dog that produced 2000 progeny or something like that, and they list this as a "foundation dog" of their bloodlines. Yeah, you and five hundred other breeders.... If you were Joe Public and didn't really know the lines you'd probably assume that breeder actually bred, owned, and titled that dog and think "wow!"

I also have to snort every time I read the "....our dogs are suitable for...." and list everything from kissing babies to personal protection, but again the breeder has never actually accomplished any of these sports or work themselves much less with dogs from their own breedings. Yeah, and I could have won the Olympics, I just didn't....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Robin and Carlos now I know where to look for good show lines that can work. I cannot be more appreciative of what you are doing and the standards that you have set for yourself. Do you have a web site with a sampling of the dogs that you have. I would like to make a friend aware of your kennel. It is important to me because my lines , working bred , and her lines a mix of lines including show AS LONG AS IT WORKS -- and she is adamant about this , are mixed . This means that at some point the "other" lines she uses come back into my pedigrees when I get an top pick pup which may become the dam or sire of my next generation.

It has to work. The nerve base must be strong . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think it all stems from the idea that a champion's puppy is more likely to be a champion itself and therefore the prices are higher. Where as on the working line side you can get a lot more dogs that will be Schutzhund capable since conformation isn't as important. In my opinion it would seem that breeding for a certain look and "standard" dimentions would be harder than breeding for temperment, although many breeders seem to prove that theory wrong. Like many people on this forum have stated, puppies are a crapshoot, if you have show plans its much harder to pick a winning puppy then it is a dog for work, and I'm talking about general work, like schutzhund training, I completely understand that service and SAR dogs need to have certain traits that most "working dogs" dont have.

Plus a champion dog only has a few years where its puppies are in high demand and the breeder SHOULD cash in on those years.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Robin and Carlos are a class act. I don't have a dog from them but I've seen them at many shows and events, they put everything into their dogs and are generous with their time and knowledge. I am a one woman show here, I don't breed dogs but train and exhibit all my dogs in a variety of venues and I never have my own handlers or an entourage with me, but you can always find someone on Robin's team to help handle your dog and get the placement it deserves. Regardless of the "types" of dogs we each prefer, I think it's more important to recognize when people are walking the walk and not just talking the talk.

Carmen, if you look up Team Huerta Hof on pedigreedatabase you can see several pages of Robin and Carlos' dogs.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

This is BIG with SL breeders Lies.....
*We had an owner of a SL puppy contact us to help train & handle their pup for the upcoming show venues. When they arrived, they were very proud of their pup (as they should be). They dropped "kennel names" and "price$$" of pup....VERY EXPENSIVE PUP BTW & BIG name kennel. The person asked my husband for his "honest" opinion...(people say that...but rarely really mean it)...my husband (Carlos) replied.....
I think you spent $$$$$ to much for your puppy.....YES....this puppy can be shown, BUT....my definition of a "show puppy" must be quite different.
When I sell a "show prospect"....I expect the puppy to do well..ie (front of the class).....
He told her that he would "bust his behind" to assist her, and he will present the puppy to the best of his ability....but in the end.....the GSD standard & the judge makes the final decision.
*And trust me....Carlos is an excellent handler!*


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Carmen.....I consider you one of the "mentors" on this forum, along with Cliff and a couple others.....so I am honored by your comment.
But honestly......we have had many "good" dogs, but we want more "great dogs".
Our stud dogs Cuervo & Ivan.....they are "great dogs".
A couple of our older breeding females...they are "great dogs"...but they have had their final litters these past few months, and we will rely on their upcoming progeny to get us through the next generation.
We have very sound, stable dogs....and a few are even exceptional.....but they are getting older, and we need to "weed" through the younger generation that we have to continue going forward.....
The new litters this year are showing "excellent" potential.....and trust me....we have had our fair share of "average" too. Don't take me wrong....sound, stable dogs....but we wanted and expected "more" from them. _does that make sense?_
No website yet...almost...but not done.

Thanks Carmen and Lies.....you put a smile on our face today!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> Onyx I have no idea what you meant by this statement. No police department is interested in a pup -- they want the young adult , fully sociailzed , x rayed clear on hips and elbows, fully tested , ready to go in to training . Even so it is not the "placing" it is the successful graduation of the rigorous training course and certification that counts.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


It does happen, smaller depts that can't afford a trained dog will take a donated one, if it washes then it gets re-homed. I know of an oops litter that had a few pups go to the local depts up north...some don't have funds to buy a $10,000 k9. They aren't losing anything by taking a donated pup.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> I see all sorts of marketing tricks. One that bothers me is when breeders show pictures of their "foundation dogs" which are dogs that they never bred or owned. Like a super-famous VA1 dog that produced 2000 progeny or something like that, and they list this as a "foundation dog" of their bloodlines. Yeah, you and five hundred other breeders.... If you were Joe Public and didn't really know the lines you'd probably assume that breeder actually bred, owned, and titled that dog and think "wow!"


Yes! One of the links I posted has the breeder pictured with two very well known studs who happen to be Dena's sire and grand-sire. They are not her dogs (the website doesn't say they are, but I think it's misleading). They may appear somewhere in her program, I didn't scour all the pedigrees to check, but they're not recent if they are there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> But for marketing purposes, saying that...in the pet owner's eye...is pretty cool. As is having a dog that has what amounts to a one day "certification" type class in an area (SAR, detection, TDI whatever) but doesn't actually work or do it. Marketing!


 This could be a brand new subjet.

I see there is an enormous misunderstanding then of what certification means. 
In general , police certification . Whether the dog is purchased from a broker who imports dogs for purpose of resale , chosen for police work, or from a breeder , the dog must first of all be free of any orthopedic problems. The dog must demonstrate correct physical type which allows it to work without being handicapped, so balanced body porportions , size , weight condition. The dog has to be hardy and rugged. No hot house variety , no "issues". The dog has to demonstrate strong nerves and character which will be challenged in the first evaluation to see if the dog is even worth further consideration. The dog will be tested to see drives, security and sureness in different environments, gun fire, close and distant, basic social attitude, willingness to work with handler etc etc. When the dept has satisfied itself that the dog in front of them is a good prospect then it is purchased . Then the dog enters a 4 month (give or take) training course with his assigned handler . The dog must pass each element of the training course . The education of the dog may be longer when there are decisions made that additional certifications in specialized areas such as narcotic detection be included. At the end there is a grand test -- which the handler as a member of the team also has to pass , and the dog is now certified. This means that the courts recognize his ability to perform reliably to a standard . Most departments have a yearly recertification test to ensure no sloppy habbits or changes due to work stress are present .
So it most certainly is not a one day test.

SAR . Not fun and games or hobby activity. Those that are in it should have a serious approach as lives are at stake. The dog is either competent or it is not. The handler is either competent or they are not.
In Canada the dog must be certified under RCMP standards or it is not allowed to , not called in to assist. Here is a good site British Columbia Search Dog Association Frequently Asked Questions outlining the responsibilities and the associations to belong to that require certain standards of you, and training the dog has to pass . I have had many dogs with handlers , which have been RCMP SAR certified and Avalanche SAR certified. Once again there are yearly examinations to verify the dog's ability.

SAR dogs are often thought of as the "weak sisters" of the working world . I have often seen suggestions for dogs that fail at schutzhund or something be recommended to become SAR . Or dogs that have nerve or confidence problems , oh well maybe he can do SAR. I wish that line of thinking would be lost . First question -- if YOU were lost would you want THAT dog to find you.
I have news clippings of my dogs lying in kits under a helicopter being delivered to a search site in the interior of British Columbia, pictures of dogs being rapelled down the side of a cliff . The dogs are not allowed recovery time - they hit the ground and it is go go go. 

So definetly not a one day certification. I believe that there are only so many attempts that one can try to certify a dog ? Say if the dog fails first attempt because he was not as proficient in one of the tests, take back retrain, retest , retrain, proof , proof , and then try for certification again -- or sometimes it is a handler skill that was lacking and when brought to attention is mastered , and retried for certification.

Tracking Dog title -- once again not a one day event . One day test , if you pass it the first time -- which many do not ! However with most applicants for trialing , and there is a good year's training involved. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> It does happen, smaller depts that can't afford a trained dog will take a donated one, if it washes then it gets re-homed. I know of an oops litter that had a few pups go to the local depts up north...some don't have funds to buy a $10,000 k9. They aren't losing anything by taking a donated pup.


 
And they can't afford time and money from some kind hearted well meaning person who offers a dog which is miles away from being suitable. Talk about the rock and hard place. We have had this in our community too -- yes, the dog washed . The department can not refuse the dog , nor can they certify the dog. So there is an initial flurry of public relations and then the dog is failed , some graceful excuse, injury claimed , hip problem etc etc. 

So tell that dept that they can have a young adult male , fully ready to go , x rayed , and guaranteed to certify and put on to the street - for less than one half of that.

Send them my way . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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