# Competition heeling



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Is touchpad work really necessary?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

touchpad???

You mean perch work? It teaches rear end awareness which is pretty important.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> touchpad???
> 
> You mean perch work? It teaches rear end awareness which is pretty important.




I guess you do perch work on a touch pad lol. And okay. That’s something I was wondering. I’ll give it a shot. Any tips?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Necessary, no. Helpful, can be. Fun, yes. Unfortunately is means that the dog is circling around his front feet, when in reality the handler is usually the center of the circle.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> I guess you do perch work on a touch pad lol. And okay. That’s something I was wondering. I’ll give it a shot. Any tips?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amanda's video is quite helpful

https://vimeo.com/88610515

Get a bowl from Tractor supply that will support the weight of the dog. You might need to have two bowls doubled.

Dogs don't know they can move their butts independently. Typically you'll want to swing the dog in the direction of the heel position but make sure to go both ways. It's important because you have to finish your dog after recalls and retrieves to bring them back to basic position. You are pointed on each finish. That dog needs to know where to put his butt and move his body. 

Click as soon as he moves his feet so he connects that. Once he starts to get it, ask for more movement before clicking.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The first thing I would decide and work on is whether you want an AKC static heel or a static service heel and begin to work on that with food. I prefer a service finish, which requires more hind end awareness.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

As someone is not a huge fan of the modern constant dead locked eyeball stare style heel while walking 50 paces and making turns (frequent eye contact and handler attentiveness I can dig, but not eyeballs glued to me right off a cliff. I'd rather see a dog glancing frequently at his handler but also paying attention to his surroundings. But that is just me and my stubbornness about Situational Awareness) but does it because I want to play too, I can tell you with 100 % certainty using a bowl with one dog and not with another has made a noticeable difference lol. The one I didn't use any of that stuff with has zero rear end awareness with, is big, and teaching him rear end awareness once he was big and habits were set in was very difficult. Even know that he knows what I mean, it looks forced. Because it is. 

The 2nd dog, I started him on a bowl, then stopped. So he is just a little better than the big one. But I do see a difference for sure. Had I stuck with it he would be much better right now. Looks like I am going down the same path though. So yeah..I recommend using the bowl and sticking with it lol.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CometDog said:


> As someone is not a huge fan of the modern constant dead locked eyeball stare style heel while walking 50 paces and making turns (frequent eye contact and handler attentiveness I can dig, but not eyeballs glued to me right off a cliff. I'd rather see a dog glancing frequently at his handler but also paying attention to his surroundings. But that is just me and my stubbornness about Situational Awareness) but does it because I want to play too, I can tell you with 100 % certainty using a bowl with one dog and not with another has made a noticeable difference lol. The one I didn't use any of that stuff with has zero rear end awareness with, is big, and teaching him rear end awareness once he was big and habits were set in was very difficult. Even know that he knows what I mean, it looks forced. Because it is.
> 
> 
> 
> The 2nd dog, I started him on a bowl, then stopped. So he is just a little better than the big one. But I do see a difference for sure. Had I stuck with it he would be much better right now. Looks like I am going down the same path though. So yeah..I recommend using the bowl and sticking with it lol.




I also tend not to be a huge fan of the focus in the heel. It’s not practical. Looks nice in competition though. I wish it wasn’t required. I don’t think it will be in American schutzhund....I’ll have to check it out. I kinda feel my dog is supposed to be aware of the surroundings


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Well, let me expand on that a little. I was a little too hasty and broad brushed in expressing my opinion. School bus was coming lol I absolutely see the value in bonding enough and earning enough trust that your dog WOULD blindly put his whole self into your hands. And having a dog that would do that for you through a wall of fire is also invaluable. I'd like to see it implemented more sporadically rather than a constant neck crane. Like, through distractions. I think it is a great exercise to demonstrate when a decoy is present, or through a group. I guess what I mean is I would like to see it turn on and off, not be constant.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CometDog said:


> Well, let me expand on that a little. I was a little too hasty and broad brushed in expressing my opinion. School bus was coming lol I absolutely see the value in bonding enough and earning enough trust that your dog WOULD blindly put his whole self into your hands. And having a dog that would do that for you through a wall of fire is also invaluable. I'd like to see it implemented more sporadically rather than a constant neck crane. Like, through distractions. I think it is a great exercise to demonstrate when a decoy is present, or through a group. I guess what I mean is I would like to see it turn on and off, not be constant.




Idk. I’m going probably teach it to my dog regardless. But I feel it’s not practical. I feel my dog can listen to me without looking at me. I’d could be the only one that prefers it. Idk. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And FYI - the cofounder of American Schutzhund is Deb Zappia. Deb Zappia is the one that taught me perch work and rear end awareness. I'm willing to be that precision in obedience will be pointed.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> And FYI - the cofounder of American Schutzhund is Deb Zappia. Deb Zappia is the one that taught me perch work and rear end awareness. I'm willing to be that precision in obedience will be pointed.




Yes, I’m aware. And oh that’s cool! Iron is in my dogs pedigree. And I I read in the rule book that “Any style of heeling is acceptable”. So I’m not sure. I guess that’s vague. Either way, As I said I’m going to start working on it. Was able to get the 2 front paws on the bowl yesterday...but that’s it. Nothing as far as turning. She wasn’t having it. I guess I should
Just continue to try to lure? Thanks for all the knowledge Jax. I do appreciate the responses. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Contact Theresa and ask. She's great.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"Attention heeling can allow you to move from one position through distractions of citizens yelling and creating disturbances. Attention heeling can also allow you to keep your dog calm and be able to deploy him for a track without becoming agitated by these distractions and interrupting his ability to concentrate on a track, for example. Each tool takes time to develop, but what you have in the end are more options for successful deployments."
from an article by Jerry Bradshaw and Sean Siggins
So there is a tactical advantage to attention/focused heeling. I think many people don't train for it because it is very difficult, has to be done correctly, and takes a lot of time and repetition. You also have to have a dog with sufficient drive or you are spitting in the wind. That doesn't mean extreme prey drive, but rather sufficient.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

In summary the perch is fun! No reason not to do it. Evertime I have reached out with an American Schutzhund question they have been friendly, eager to help, and chat about their new endeavor. I have hats and Tshirts already lol


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CometDog said:


> In summary the perch is fun! No reason not to do it. Evertime I have reached out with an American Schutzhund question they have been friendly, eager to help, and chat about their new endeavor. I have hats and Tshirts already lol




Yes, yes. We digress. I will be doing the perch work. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What does your trainer have to say about the perchwork? They didn't show you this months ago when your dog was a puppy?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, it doesn't need to be done. There are other ways to teach rear end awareness. It does have its purpose, though, and is an easy way for most people to do this. 

A dog watching you in heeling shows the bond and relationship with the handler. It can also be created through artificial means. I don't care for the head up the arm pit look that is too often created in training and not developed through training and relationship. It is NOT needed for high points, but the dog giving your focus is. In dogs with high pack drive this is very easy to get. Dogs with less pack drive it can be more difficult, but still possible.

This is competition and obedience. It has nothing to do with the dog being unaware of its surroundings or wanting the dog to look around. You are either willing to put the time in to develop that relationship with your dog or you are not.


These dogs were trained with food, toy and a little pinch to keep the forward momentum controlled. No force to make them look at me. No sticks to get the heads up. NO ball or toy under the arm (bites there hurt!). Deja was a bit flashier than Vala due to her structure.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> Yes, yes. We digress. I will be doing the perch work.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My dogs are very enthusiastic about learning touch pads. We do it for the fun of it. I have found that once they get it, they will independently use any hard round item such as a frisbee or a plastic, dollar store oil pan to scooter all over the place whether it is on the tile porch, grass, or even cement in the basement. It has become a great source of pleasure and exercise for them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

lhczth said:


> This is competition and obedience. It has nothing to do with the dog being unaware of its surroundings or wanting the dog to look around. You are either willing to put the time in to develop that relationship with your dog or you are not.


I was referring to how an attentive heel has tactical advantages in police dogs and it is not just a sport thing.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My dogs are very enthusiastic about learning touch pads. We do it for the fun of it. I have found that once they get it, they will independently use any hard round item such as a frisbee or a plastic, dollar store oil pan to scooter all over the place whether it is on the tile porch, grass, or even cement in the basement. It has become a great source of pleasure and exercise for them.



I hope mine enjoys it that much lol. 


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Competition heeling itself has literally nothing to do with its application to situational awareness, so I do not think that the discussion regarding how it applies to "real life" is relevant. 

That being said, there is nothing in competition heeling that is "absolutely necessary". I personally do use perch work to build rear end awareness, and as a starting point in my heeling foundation, but there are a million ways to skin a cat.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> I hope mine enjoys it that much lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When they get going, they remind me of kids in bumper cars at an amusement park. Lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In my experience, when the ball or food (reward line) goes away, dogs will find their own level of comfort. I teach head up, push off the rear, to help them stay straight and not forge. But when the ball goes away, both of my dogs drop and turn their heads slightly to look at me.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> Competition heeling itself has literally nothing to do with its application to situational awareness, so I do not think that the discussion regarding how it applies to "real life" is relevant.



I am calling the behavior attentive/focused heeling. In the context of trialing it is competition heeling and does not have anything to do with situational awareness. In the context of a police dog in certain situations, it has everything to do with situational awareness.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> In my experience, when the ball or food (reward line) goes away, dogs will find their own level of comfort. I teach head up, push off the rear, to help them stay straight and not forge. But when the ball goes away, both of my dogs drop and turn their heads slightly to look at me.



That is a training issue and can be prevented.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> That is a training issue and can be prevented.


Prevent what? I don't think you understood my post.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nscullin said:


> Yes, yes. We digress. I will be doing the perch work.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keeping in mind that Jax, Gator, and Lisa all ended up with consistently better heeling then me, I taught mine to swing their rear by working in decreasing left hand circles. Tighter and smaller till he was backing up to stay in position. I played around with the touch pad/ perch work, but I tend to avoid adding too many things I'll have to fade out. Something to think about as far as that Jerry Bradshaw article in a sport context, the heeling is how you get from one exercise to the next. Its tough to heel the length of the field to the dumbells without focus, then get good retrieves. The performance in the heeling can carry over to everything else.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Keeping in mind that Jax, Gator, and Lisa all ended up with consistently better heeling then me, I taught mine to swing their rear by working in decreasing left hand circles. Tighter and smaller till he was backing up to stay in position. I played around with the touch pad/ perch work, but I tend to avoid adding too many things I'll have to fade out. Something to think about as far as that Jerry Bradshaw article in a sport context, the heeling is how you get from one exercise to the next. Its tough to heel the length of the field to the dumbells without focus, then get good retrieves. The performance in the heeling can carry over to everything else.




It’s quite a struggle to teach as this is my first time doing it, I can’t lie. I’m working hard though. Just a little each day. 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maintaining heeling has always been tough for me. Different reasons with different dogs, but luckily heeling itself isn't too many points so I've always managed to hang on to enough with the other exercises.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> It’s quite a struggle to teach as this is my first time doing it, I can’t lie. I’m working hard though. Just a little each day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Schutzhund is like learning to color between the lines again.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Schutzhund is like learning to color between the lines again.




That’s my favorite thing I’ve ever read on this forum lol. So true


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Generally speaking, if you're training things through reward and motivation, you'll get some do overs and a chances to bring it back in the lines, Lol.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Nscullin said:


> It’s quite a struggle to teach as this is my first time doing it, I can’t lie. I’m working hard though. Just a little each day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m not sure if you’re working alone on this? If you are, recording some of your training sessions can help you gauge progress and allow for a method of self critique. I discovered a number of little things about my own movement during heeling that we’re contributing to my dog being out position.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nigel said:


> I’m not sure if you’re working alone on this? If you are, recording some of your training sessions can help you gauge progress and allow for a method of self critique. I discovered a number of little things about my own movement during heeling that we’re contributing to my dog being out position.




I’m not alone. Just between sessions her and I work together. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

More heeling work.

https://www.facebook.com/completecanine10/videos/2138892163019877/

https://www.facebook.com/completecanine10/videos/1966956396880122/

https://www.facebook.com/completecanine10/videos/2010466999195728/


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

lhczth said:


> I don't care for the head up the arm pit look that is too often created in training and not developed through training and relationship.


That is the part I am not nuts about. Not so much the undivided attention but that direct up stare.



Chip Blasiole said:


> I am calling the behavior attentive/focused heeling. In the context of trialing it is competition heeling and does not have anything to do with situational awareness. In the context of a police dog in certain situations, it has everything to do with situational awareness.


I am stuck in awerness mode as a human. My first guided hunting trip, I 'll spare you the details, but I caused the 70 year old guide in the flannel hat to drawl "you have had WAY to much tactical training" . If I was a dog, I would have THE WORST focused heel ever. I also wont sit with my back to the entrance of a restaurant of any description. Genetics? Environment/Socialization? Both probably for me lol

Staring at me while working comes natural to my 8 month old dog Blitzen. Valor, my 2.5 old has suspicion and is forward defensive. He wont not glance at movement, and then back at me, while we are working. I can keep his attention, and will do a focused heel through a group. It is not his natural disposition though. While Blitzen...if I have the ball and Blitzen knows it, a dump truck compacting nitroglycerin would not get his attention. He's fussing until in flames.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> More heeling work.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/completecanine10/videos/2138892163019877/
> 
> ...








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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> More heeling work.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/completecanine10/videos/2138892163019877/
> 
> ...




Same dog in all 3. Makes that perch work look easy...hasn’t been quite so simple with mine. Will post vids when she catches hold more


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> Same dog in all 3. Makes that perch work look easy...hasn’t been quite so simple with mine. Will post vids when she catches hold more
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. It's not the same dog. Digger. Crixius, and Quin.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

What is really cool in the videos is the upbeat nature of the trainer! Great examples of how it "should" be done! Keep it fun, keep it upbeat, training should always be fun for the dog when they're young!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jax8,
The third video is almost identical to how I taught my current dog heeling. Hand positioning with the food is very correct, the pup has learned to push into the hand/food, spins for engagement and to help reset the dog back into heeling, backward walking/heeling for in motion exercises, etc. The only difference for me was I taught the dog to come to a static heel while facing me doing a service/flip finish first. I also always used a leash and used opposition reflex to teach the service finish and used the prong until recently to be able to correct any head dropping. I also would do some one or two steps of heeling and stop and not just heel for a number of paces. Now I just use the e-collar and no leash to maintain precision. There are so many little things that people can do wrong that prevents the dog from heeling correctly.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jax8,
> The third video is almost identical to how I taught my current dog heeling. Hand positioning with the food is very correct, the pup has learned to push into the hand/food, spins for engagement and to help reset the dog back into heeling, backward walking/heeling for in motion exercises, etc. The only difference for me was I taught the dog to come to a static heel while facing me doing a service/flip finish first. I also always used a leash and used opposition reflex to teach the service finish and used the prong until recently to be able to correct any head dropping. I also would do some one or two steps of heeling and stop and not just heel for a number of paces. Now I just use the e-collar and no leash to maintain precision. There are so many little things that people can do wrong that prevents the dog from heeling correctly.




Looks like I’m headed in the right direction. I have been working more in the “finish” station heel position than the movement at this point. Although we do a little of each. 


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Notice in the video where the handler is holding her hand with the food. It is about where the outside seam of a pair of pants would be and at the right height , which is correct and teaches the dog the correct position for his head and chest. You can also tell she worked on teaching the pup to push into the food and then up and into the food. This is why you need a pup with good food drive and later, good prey drive.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Notice in the video where the handler is holding her hand with the food. It is about where the outside seam of a pair of pants would be and at the right height , which is correct and teaches the dog the correct position for his head and chest. You can also tell she worked on teaching the pup to push into the food and then up and into the food. This is why you need a pup with good food drive and later, good prey drive.




Larry krohn also mentions this in his videos. I’ve been focusing more on me and less on her. I know that if I do the right lures she will catch on. If that makes sense lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jax8,
> The third video is almost identical to how I taught my current dog heeling. Hand positioning with the food is very correct,


Well - she is a national level competitor and competed at the world seiger show with two different dogs. She knows a little. :wink2:


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Nscullin said:


> Larry krohn also mentions this in his videos. I’ve been focusing more on me and less on her. I know that if I do the right lures she will catch on. If that makes sense lol


It makes more than sense. It is the essence of dog training. The vast majority of problems with a good dog stem from handlers errors in the foundation work. The other issue in protection sports is that you have to have a very skilled decoy to bring your dog to his genetic potential, and to me, that is a major problem in the U.S. If you have to travel hours to train, it becomes a burden or you can't go enough to make the progress you want to see. People have lives outside of their dogs and if a whole weekend is taken up by travel and training, it really isn't practical or fun.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It makes more than sense. It is the essence of dog training. The vast majority of problems with a good dog stem from handlers errors in the foundation work. The other issue in protection sports is that you have to have a very skilled decoy to bring your dog to his genetic potential, and to me, that is a major problem in the U.S. If you have to travel hours to train, it becomes a burden or you can't go enough to make the progress you want to see. People have lives outside of their dogs and if a whole weekend is taken up by travel and training, it really isn't practical or fun.




Yeah...I think we have one schutzhund club in 100mi radius. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

"very skilled decoy to bring your dog to his genetic potential"

Amen to this. Not a decoy that works one system and can only work one type of dog. But a decoy that works the dog in front of them to bring out their genetic potential. 

And foundation is everything. From obedience to tracking to protection. You can't unteach something.


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