# Conflicted training experiences, Wash. State



## von Bolen

So, I'm having the most amazing experiencing training with my Czech working Gshep Xara under the methods of Bart de Gols. No complaints whatsoever. It's all about building a personal relationship and trust with your dog. Expensive, but this guys is world renowned for a danm good reason. 

Now, my outcross 1.5 years old male Petey... he's a softy. Amazingly calm and welcoming temperament. We are gearing him to be therapy dog certified, because he is just amazing in public and with strangers. People LOVE this dog. So my mom, who is handling his training, has been taking him to a trainer who shall not be named, that I feel destroys dogs spirits from what I've heard of the 3 weeks of training my mom and Petey have gone through. No matter how well a dog already knows a command, this person wants you to choke the s*it out of them every time you give them a command. Of course, my mom doesn't comply, as we would rather fail the class than to do that to our dog. This person is of the old 'yank-and-crank' style of training, and had we known that, we would not have gone to her. Not only that, she single's people out and makes examples of them in front of the whole class for what not to do. How bitter and insecure! not to mention unfairly belittling. Has anyone else experienced this with trainer's before? I'm too spiteful to pull my dog from this class. i'd rather have my mom trudge through, finish the class, pass or fail, and stick to our ethics that is based on having our dogs comply out of enjoying to work rather than to instil fear of abuse if they don't comply.


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## OriginalWacky

Why on earth would you continue to return to a class like this?


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## von Bolen

Like I said, I'm too spiteful to quit. Maybe prove this person wrong by sticking to our ethics? Besides, its already bought and paid for.


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## Castlemaid

I think quitting would be a better expression of your opinion of this person than sticking it out. It shows that you know better than what she is trying to ram down your throat.


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## OriginalWacky

Castlemaid said:


> I think quitting would be a better expression of your opinion of this person than sticking it out. It shows that you know better than what she is trying to ram down your throat.


Yeah, this. I personally would feel like my ethics would require me to get away from somebody like that, and make sure to spread the word far and wide. Much like I was willing to share the name of my awesome trainer all over the place because I think she was great, and deserved the accolades. Not leaving the class is reminiscent of not stepping in when you see something 'bad' happen for me personally.


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## wolfy dog

OriginalWacky said:


> Yeah, this. I personally would feel like my ethics would require me to get away from somebody like that, and make sure to spread the word far and wide. Much like I was willing to share the name of my awesome trainer all over the place because I think she was great, and deserved the accolades. Not leaving the class is reminiscent of not stepping in when you see something 'bad' happen for me personally.


A ruined dog is a big price to pay to "stick with ethics".


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## von Bolen

well, for one we will not let our dog be ruined. we will either recieve a failing grade or be asked to leave the class for non-complience to methods we feel are harmful to our dog. i wanna stick it out till its over before i make my criticisms to this person, as this person has a high latter position at the very high school-cliquey crowd at the local Gshep club. i cant sgand bullies and im compelled to stand up to them. But, if the personal belittlement continues, the gloves are coming off...


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## volcano

I had alot of probs finding a trainer, we still have found "the one" Alot of trainers arent used to a good dog. I had my shutz trainers shutting ME down and saying not to do much obedience and now I see why. 
When a good gsd is over a year old they learn instantly, so doing alot of repetition isnt necessary. Thats why good kennels sell "green "dogs, they are ready to learn it all fast. And yank and crank is unnecessary. Id leave the trainer and do it on my own if you cant find someone you agree with.

If you paid and are somewhat obligated then let the trainer know you arent gonna yank and crank, they should be able to adjust their methods somewhat.

I went back to my initial training club for agility, they do their best to shutdown all the dogs and then they feel proud of the dogs doing hard obedience stuff like stay, but no other dog can come near or itll be a fight- and its the other dogs fault for coming too close. Ill deal with it, thankfully the agility isnt like that.


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## Blanketback

I had a similar experience with a trainer here, who also happened to be a GSD breeder. I ended up pulling my pup from his classes. Paying for something is only half the equation - you also need to benefit from it, enjoy it, get some value from it. This class sounds just awful for Petey, from what you've said, and ultimately he'll be the one paying the price for your stubbornness.


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## onyx'girl

Really, why would you waste a poor dogs spirit just to prove a point? Sad for Petey if he has to deal with one person's methods that isn't in his interest. A hard dog may be fine with such crap, but a soft dog is just going to shut down.
Wouldn't be worth my time to fight with someone who's methods I disagree with. I'd rather just remove myself from their world.


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## von Bolen

Upon more contemplating, and considering the risks, cooler heads prevail. We will be returning for one more lesson and then upon MY viewing of how this person trains, I will be exiting us from the premises after stating we will not instil fear through abuse to our dog, putting the trainer on the spot like she does others.,


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## von Bolen

Even though I feel we would be able to keep Petey from harm by this trainer, I've decided going through with this isn't worth it. But, we will not bow out silently. the trainer will be told exactly how we feel.


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## Blanketback

Well, if you're dead set on exposing her for the bully that she is, why not bring a super duper hard dog to class?


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## von Bolen

That would just be more than what its worth, considering the schtz work, I'm already paying for with my hard dog.


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## Blanketback

The thing is, people have been training like this for so long, they can call it, "tried and true" and anything else can be called, "newfangled crazy talk" lol. Just get Petey out of there, and forget her. So what if she sucks? Don't let it get to you.


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## crackem

You've already wasted your money. Why waste more time too? Go do something fun with your dog and quit wasting it with someone that doesn't matter


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## martemchik

So you just want to make a public scene based on the fact that YOU made the mistake of signing up for a class before seeing how this person trained. Your opinion of their style of training isn't based off of results, its based off of your limited experience with a different trainer that has a style that you prefer more...

She's not abusing your dog...she's just telling you to correct the way she does. It's up to you to learn, listen, and follow through if you'd like. Just because she singles out people that aren't doing it, shouldn't make you do it either. We're grown ups...just because you make fun of me, doesn't mean I'm going to do something I don't want to do in the first place.

Not really sure why the public display is necessary. If anything, might open you up to some liability since all of your "issues" with her are strongly based on subjective observations.

By the way...earlier when you wanted to stick it out...had nothing to do with your ETHICS. It was all about your CONVICTIONS. Your ETHICS should've told you that what you're seeing is wrong and therefore you should not go back, but your CONVICTION told you that you don't quit or give up on something that you've already paid for.


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## von Bolen

I'm sorry, but the way she wants you to choke the, with such brutal force, is not a correction. I'm not exaggerating when I use the term 'brutal' either. In no way can a dog enjoy working when you are being told "jerk his collar harder! HARDER!!!" when you already fee that your inflicting abuse to your dog. Tried and true or not, this is abuse and nothing more. The dogs that do excel in the class, look nervous and are quick to make any move, almostly lookkng like they hope they responded right. as said, fear and soul crushing is not what i believe, in my experience past and present, creates a healthy relationship with your dog. A dog should WANT to work, not feel like they have to so as not to be abused.


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## von Bolen

And in a short amount of time, we've garnered shared opinions from many people after going through this class.

And a quick note, this trainer admits to riding people's ass of who she just plain doesn't like.


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## von Bolen

But you are right, a public scene will not help any.


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## martemchik

I'm not trying to argue that its not the best way of training (I don't train that way and don't believe in that way of training), I'm just saying I don't agree with your need to make a public scene about it. You realize that there are people out there that never correct a dog, and if they went to watch one of your training sessions where you might just give a slight collar pop and yell abuse. Do you use a prong collar? Many people would yell abuse at that and tell you that its not necessary...

Who cares what she thinks and why she rides people? It's her business, she can run it any way she wants to. Clearly she makes a decent enough living, you're not there to teach her how to run a business. I'm training with a guy now that has admitted that if he doesn't like you, he'll just ask you not to come back. He knows he'll lose the money, but he does it because he wants to and its not about the extra income for him. She clearly understands that her style will probably rub people the wrong way and they'll never come back, others will stick around and keep paying her. You're not out there to educate all the other trainers out there on what they're doing wrong and what they're doing right.

At the end of the day...let people make their own decisions. You've been training a dog for what? A Year. She's been successfully training dogs for much longer than that, do you really believe your word will have that much weight against hers when the others in the class hear you?


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## Merciel

Opinions vary as to what constitutes a permissible "correction," which is one of many reasons I don't care for that particular euphemism.

Like a lot of other people said, I'd just drop the class. My feeling is that life's short, there are too many crappy trainers in the world to get worked up about them all, and I've got better things to teach my dog.

fwiw, those methods _do_ work to produce results in some venues with some dogs. I don't care for them, I would never use them, and I don't have a particularly high opinion of people who do employ them. But yep, you will definitely find people defending them as "tried and true," and then asking why your newfangled crazy talk doesn't have the same track record of 20 years' high scores.


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## MadLab

> stick to our ethics


Would the ethical thing be to go to a class you don't agree with or leave the class as a matter of principle?

You would make a stand by leaving and explaining why.

Maybe others in the course agree with you but aren't courageous enough to say they don't agree with the training methods and are leaving the course.


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## Blanketback

I totally agree with you, that's why I opted out of my class. I know jerking the crap out of my pup will accomplish compliance, but I'd rather go with motivational learning. It's going to be difficult to get this trainer to change her ways, when this is how things used to be done. Some people don't want to learn different approaches.


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## Cassidy's Mom

onyx'girl said:


> Really, why would you waste a poor dogs spirit just to prove a point? Sad for Petey if he has to deal with one person's methods that isn't in his interest. A hard dog may be fine with such crap, but a soft dog is just going to shut down.
> Wouldn't be worth my time to fight with someone who's methods I disagree with. I'd rather just remove myself from their world.


Absolutely - as crackem said, you've already wasted money, why waste time too? You're not going to change this "trainer"s mind so what's the point of a confrontation? I don't see anything wrong with telling her why you're leaving, just don't expect it to make a difference. :shrug: 

I don't always agree 100% with the training philosophy of every class I've ever taken, but as long as I feel it's beneficial for me and my dog, I'll continue. It's only an hour a week, and the rest of the time I'm working on my own anyway. I just do things my way, and I've never had a problem with a trainer in class because they can clearly see I know what I'm doing and that it's working. Frequently, my dog is either the best or one of the best in the class, so I'm left alone, with occasional "good job with Halo", or "everyone - watch what Debbie and Halo are doing" comments called from across the room, while the trainer and any assistants go around helping those who need assistance.

But if I felt what the trainer expected me to do in class was actually harmful to either my training progress or the relationship with my dog, I'd have no problem simply not going back.


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## Merciel

Blanketback said:


> It's going to be difficult to get this trainer to change her ways, when this is how things used to be done. Some people don't want to learn different approaches.


Yeah, I started to write up a long post about why it is not an irrational choice for someone who has a high level of skill (or, for that matter, someone who _doesn't_) in antiquated methods to keep on keepin' on with the crank-and-yank, and then I was like "wait what am I doing with my life here" and deleted it.

But anyway your (OP's) job is not to convince the trainer to change anything about what she's doing. You can _try,_ but you'll probably accomplish nothing other making enemies, which is seldom a good idea in a world as small and insular as the dog scene can be. Berating people usually just gets them to dig their heels in harder (seriously, if you want a low-stakes example of this, just pick a position in a MY TRAINING METHOD IS THE BEST LOL U SUKK message board debate. Any debate, any position. See how far you get).

Train your dog the best you can. If you want to compete, go out there and compete. Your win record will speak for itself.


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## carmspack

get your ego out of the equation and do what is best for the dog !


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## von Bolen

Yeah. I think I was just heated because its my mom who is being singled out and no one else(even though there are other people making the same mistakes or who's dogs don't sit down in an instant or what have you) in the class. Her program or not, you shouldn't treat people that way. It doesn't motivate. It creates insecurity and indecisiveness when the pressure is on.

It wasnt my intentions to try to change her mind. I'm a wolf advocate and iI go to the public meetings and listen to opposing sides, and I know first hand the pointlessness of trying to change individuals minds. I guess maybe I was trying to find a way of leaving the class without looking defeated.


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## David Winners

carmspack said:


> get your ego out of the equation and do what is best for the dog !


:thumbup::thumbup:

David Winners


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## carmspack

I don't know ? Why your mom only. Maybe she has an attitude and is wearing on the trainers last frayed nerve. You did say your mom doesn't comply . You would rather " be asked to leave the class for non-compliance " 

You also said she (the trainer) singles people out and makes examples of them in front of the whole class. This could be useful as a demonstration , when you do this -- the results will be -- to change the results do this . Happens ALL the time at any seminar - 

Does not equate to bitter and insecure . Everyone in that class is probably in the same boat - super novice --- and appreciates having things pointed out rather than going on and repeating something that could be an easy fix-up. 

" I'm too spiteful to pull my dog from this class. i'd rather have my mom trudge through, finish the class, " 

you said " till its over before i make my criticisms to this person," BUT you have already done so ! 

"But, if the personal belittlement continues, the gloves are coming off"

too much hostility , there is no point at all being in that class .

could you explain how you are different using Bart de Bols operant conditioning -- and why don't you apply this knowledge to the softy dog -- who would benefit greatly .


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## martemchik

von Bolen said:


> It doesn't motivate. It creates insecurity and indecisiveness when the pressure is on.


Actually...some people thrive under that kind of pressure. They don't mind being called out and some people need to be shown that they're falling behind their classmates. I'm in a class where the instructor will say, "X, your dog isn't sitting fast enough...look at Y's dog." Many people...that will get them to work on the exercise at home and come back the next week and show that they've improved.

Sounds like you're a "pet" person in a "competition" class. Not sure if it was just advertised wrong, or the trainer doesn't bother to make that distinction, but it seems like YOUR goals are different than hers. Her goal or guarantee might be that if you take this class for a certain amount of time, your dog will be able to get a CD at the end of that time period. She knows her methods work to get that, and many people just look at getting to that end goal. So if she doesn't get them there, they'll be just as angry, or angrier than you are about her training methods.

I know you've said you're not going to publically confront her at this point. But maybe for others that read this they'll learn to really ask questions about possible trainers, what their goals are, what they hope to accomplish at the end of the class. And the biggest thing, watch them teach a class and see if its what you like.


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## von Bolen

actually, we have both pet and working Gsheps. my pup Xara is doing extremely well in IPO/Bitework. and i have done many basic pet obediance training with others, but we took someones word for this particular course, and apparently made the mistake of not getting others opinions first. lesson learned.


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## von Bolen

carmspack said:


> I don't know ? Why your mom only. Maybe she has an attitude and is wearing on the trainers last frayed nerve. You did say your mom doesn't comply . You would rather " be asked to leave the class for non-compliance "
> 
> You also said she (the trainer) singles people out and makes examples of them in front of the whole class. This could be useful as a demonstration , when you do this -- the results will be -- to change the results do this . Happens ALL the time at any seminar -
> 
> Does not equate to bitter and insecure . Everyone in that class is probably in the same boat - super novice --- and appreciates having things pointed out rather than going on and repeating something that could be an easy fix-up.
> 
> " I'm too spiteful to pull my dog from this class. i'd rather have my mom trudge through, finish the class, "
> 
> you said " till its over before i make my criticisms to this person," BUT you have already done so !
> 
> "But, if the personal belittlement continues, the gloves are coming off"
> 
> too much hostility , there is no point at all being in that class .
> 
> could you explain how you are different using Bart de Bols operant conditioning -- and why don't you apply this knowledge to the softy dog -- who would benefit greatly .


No, my mom doesnt have an attitude. She ask questions to make sure she is fully understanding what to do, but i think it boils down to we just flat out refuse to choke our dog to death when he already knows the commands being asked of him.

As far as Bart de Gols goes, he is a world renowned trainer, dog behaviorist and schultzhund champion many times over. he comes from the old world. hes abused dogs in his younger days. kicking, every kind of choke, prong and electric collar. You name it, hes done it. but he met a dolphin trainer in Cairo and he completely changed his entire game and is all about positive reinforcement and building trust and love with your dog. and this is still in the schutzhund field! he trains police dogs, even, and hes successful. and he doesnt make us choke our dogs to death.


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## von Bolen

it also goes to say that this trainer has a high quit rate and most of her classes. and when she says that it sounds like she takes pride in that.


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## Merciel

von Bolen said:


> it also goes to say that this trainer has a high quit rate and most of her classes. and when she says that it sounds like she takes pride in that.


Yep, I've known trainers like this. For some people it does seem to be a point of pride that "only the toughest survive." No mercy for the weak! Begone, softies! If you don't have the guts to do What Needs To Be Done, flee this class at once! etc. etc.

And I agree with martemchik that there are people who thrive in that type of environment (and further agree that you mostly see them in the competition world. Pet people, happily for their dogs, seldom seem to think like that). As soon as you tell them "only the toughest survive," they are bound and determined to prove that they and their dogs are the toughest, so they will stick it out through pretty much anything.

Personally I think it's an especially pernicious variant of ego-over-good-training and don't have much patience for it. But yeah it's definitely a thing.


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## von Bolen

It must be a show thing. I've yet to understand these people or their little world, but then again, I've yet to find anything about it that would be appealing to me. From what I've seen in the club and the comps I've been to, I just don't see myself ever being part of it. Some of it seems pretty impracticle, hence why I lean towards the working world. Plus in the working classes, I've yet to see Gshep's that walk on the whole hock of their back feet. THAT, I'm actually pretty appalled by just from seeing how those dogs walk. But that's just me.

not to down talk show dogs as a whole. Besides Xara, all my dogs have some working lines in them.


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## von Bolen

*show lines, I mean*


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## von Bolen

But you know, that opinion is neither here nor there. Has nothing to do with this topic really.


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## Merciel

It's not (generally) a conformation thing, if that's what you mean by "show world." Conformation training is pretty minimal and I don't know of anyone who thinks you "need" heavy-handed aversives to achieve it. I'm sure they're out there somewhere, and I don't have much experience in conformation so I'm not gonna pretend to know every corner of that world, but I've never seen it myself.

Mostly I see it in competition obedience. There are a fair number of old-school trainers in that field who have had a lot of success and developed strong followings by doing things that way. I live in a pretty progressive region and there are still entire clubs whose programs revolve around heavy use of forcible aversives.

I suspect it's one of several reasons that obedience is a dwindling sport. New people come in, encounter that nastiness, are told it's the only way to do things, and go "welp then I guess I'm gonna go train in agility, see ya."


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## Cassidy's Mom

von Bolen said:


> I guess maybe I was trying to find a way of leaving the class without looking defeated.


That's your ego talking.  Who cares how it looks? She's going to interpret it the way she'll interpret it no matter what you do or say.


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## martemchik

von Bolen said:


> It must be a show thing. I've yet to understand these people or their little world, but then again, I've yet to find anything about it that would be appealing to me. From what I've seen in the club and the comps I've been to, I just don't see myself ever being part of it. Some of it seems pretty impracticle, hence why I lean towards the working world. Plus in the working classes, I've yet to see Gshep's that walk on the whole hock of their back feet. THAT, I'm actually pretty appalled by just from seeing how those dogs walk. But that's just me.
> 
> not to down talk show dogs as a whole. Besides Xara, all my dogs have some working lines in them.


By show world we're talking obedience trialing and Schutzhund trials as well. I can guarantee you that she's not training people for the conformation "show" ring. The little world we're talking about includes all people that trial/show their dogs.

You haven't been to enough Schutzhund trials if you think people aren't like this lady. They might not train in her methods, but they're definitely cut throat and want to win. The people going for world championships aren't just sitting back and thinking they know everything, they're constantly being challenged by others to do better.

I'm sorry...but your biases are so apparant. You sound like an extremely passionate person, but your love for one trainer based on what HE has told you is completely opposite of how you feel about another trainer. It's pretty clear to me that your current opinion is based on a very small sampling of training and education about training. Don't take offense to this, but you should just be way more open minded and not shoot people down because they're different. Like someone mentioned before...the moment you start making enemies in the dog world is the moment you start losing points and titles not based on your skill or performance but based on what you might've said two years ago.

You'd be surprised at who knows who and who talks with who in this world. Especially in a small area/region...these people all know each other, have heard of one another, and you're very likely to run into someone again.

Sorry...my biggest pet peeve about "working" people (and I'm one of them) is the ones that get into Schutzhund and start shooting down show lines (particularly American lines) without understanding anything about them. Biggest sign of this is the fact that your biggest issue with those dogs is "the way they walk" and the funny thing is, many of them don't walk as bad as we like to make them out to based on videos from the 80s. I get you, you have a working line, you think its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but guess what, the people winning AKC championships think the same thing of their dogs and can just as easily sit back and make fun of your dog's structure.


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## Chris Wild

IMO, by continuing to participate you are giving the impression to others at the class or who know where you train that you condone the training. The better, more "spiteful" thing to do would be to quit training there and tell this person exactly why. With luck, this will start a mass exodus from others in the class who are perhaps afraid to do this on their own.


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## carmspack

oh I know who de Gols is -- basic operant conditioning ala Karen Pryor -- I have Lads before the Wind - first edition - Pryor's diary and later added her book On Behaviour.

this is "okay" - a good seminal idea -- well geared for a right or wrong choice -- I personally think that the "trust and relationship" building is more complex, nuanced.

My question was how do YOU employ this method taught by de Gols , which you are so lucky to have near to you by the way . 

Your first post was pretty emotional -- and that is what needs to be curbed in training de Gols way. 

How do I train my dogs? without leash -


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## von Bolen

martemchik said:


> By show world we're talking obedience trialing and Schutzhund trials as well. I can guarantee you that she's not training people for the conformation "show" ring. The little world we're talking about includes all people that trial/show their dogs.
> 
> You haven't been to enough Schutzhund trials if you think people aren't like this lady. They might not train in her methods, but they're definitely cut throat and want to win. The people going for world championships aren't just sitting back and thinking they know everything, they're constantly being challenged by others to do better.
> 
> I'm sorry...but your biases are so apparant. You sound like an extremely passionate person, but your love for one trainer based on what HE has told you is completely opposite of how you feel about another trainer. It's pretty clear to me that your current opinion is based on a very small sampling of training and education about training. Don't take offense to this, but you should just be way more open minded and not shoot people down because they're different. Like someone mentioned before...the moment you start making enemies in the dog world is the moment you start losing points and titles not based on your skill or performance but based on what you might've said two years ago.
> 
> You'd be surprised at who knows who and who talks with who in this world. Especially in a small area/region...these people all know each other, have heard of one another, and you're very likely to run into someone again.
> 
> Sorry...my biggest pet peeve about "working" people (and I'm one of them) is the ones that get into Schutzhund and start shooting down show lines (particularly American lines) without understanding anything about them. Biggest sign of this is the fact that your biggest issue with those dogs is "the way they walk" and the funny thing is, many of them don't walk as bad as we like to make them out to based on videos from the 80s. I get you, you have a working line, you think its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but guess what, the people winning AKC championships think the same thing of their dogs and can just as easily sit back and make fun of your dog's structure.


well, i definately wouldnt consider myself a Schultzhund person! I was actually against Schutz and still am, when it comes to the political side of things. And the same goes for show. And im definately not saying Schultz is perfect(Schultzhund tracking is completely un-natural). I guess what i meant to say earlier, i didnt really mean the show world, just the show people i see at the local Gshep club. People i personallh have come in contact with. Im still learning the ins and outs of everything, yes. But so far, i wluldnt say i belong to any field. Im taking what i feel is beneficial to my dogs trainings whereever i can get it and whoever i get it from. I have one person i go to for obediance and conformation, and another for Schutz/IPO. Regardless of how i come off, i am open minded. I guess i just have seen alot of things i feel arent for me.


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## von Bolen

And yes, I am very happy with due.Gols. But until I meant him and his method, I wasnt going to do sSchultz. And if I went to another Schultz trainer, I would probably experience the things that turned me off from it.


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## von Bolen

*by the way, my phones auto-correct sucks and I don't realize my typos and misspellings until its too late*


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## carmspack

so you are doing bite work , but not schutzhund?
are both training scenarios conflicted, yourself and your mom. 
a dog will sense tension, ambivalence , displeasure from you , that is conflict , not conducive to that trust and partnership.
maybe take a time out and have a good think about what you want to do so that the situation is not so confused .


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## von Bolen

I did Schutz puppy obedience and after, the trainer and I felt that IPO was best for Xara.

no, both scenarios are not conflicted. I've never had an issue with training or trainers before now.


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## von Bolen

So now that we are a full day after my original post, heres where I'm at with this:

I am not going to make a public scene. 
I am not going to stick it out out of spite.
I do feel this person treats people harshly, especially beginners like my mom.
I do feel the way this person wants us to correct the dog is excessive/abusive.
I admit it is my fault for not researching this trainer more.
I admit i still have alot to learn(though i am heavily mentored by 4 or 5 of who i feel are the top breeders in working and pet/show Gsheps in my area).
I do not pretend to know everything about the show or working world's, but can put my foot in my mouth sometimes.
Though I've had success with one schutz trainer, i dont pretend schutz or other schutz trainers would garner the same results.
The I've had a bad experience with one competition/conformation trainer, i dont believe other trainers or the field itself is represented by that experience.


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## von Bolen

Frankly, this was all a learning experience regardless of everything else. Maybe I let my anger speak alittle louder than I should have, but at this time yesterday I was feeling pretty livid. I thought my dog was in danger of having his spirit destroyed and I was emotional about it. And in that, alot of what you guys said, whether I fully agree or not, forced me to reconsider what the circumstances were and put my anger in check.


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