# Puppy too young for A frame and Jumps ?



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Im new to the sport and have been doing it for about three months. The obedience part seems to be progressing fast. 

The trainer's have mentioned about starting to do A Frame and Jumps. Obviously the jumps will be very small and the a frame will be flattered out so it's not too steep. 

I was wondering is this too early for a 10 month old pup? 

I enjoy the sport but I'm certainty in no rush to progress as fast as possible. I'm happy to take thing slowly. Especially if things such as the a frame and Jumps are too risky for my young dog. 

Opinions please?


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I don’t think it’s too early. Just listen to your trainers, they’ll know.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes it is. But you can Start teaching jumping mechanics over low jumps to minimize impact and teach you dog the aframe targeting so he doesn't jump off the top. Schutzhund Kevin has a good video on the aframe.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Rogan has been doing homemade agility including small jumps for months. Keep it low and low impact and non repetitive


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I would give it some time.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Loki.777 said:


> Im new to the sport and have been doing it for about three months. The obedience part seems to be progressing fast.
> 
> The trainer's have mentioned about starting to do A Frame and Jumps. Obviously the jumps will be very small and the a frame will be flattered out so it's not too steep.
> 
> ...


I don't what fast means to you, but if the obedience is going fast you are probably not getting high precision or speed from your dog.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't what fast means to you, but if the obedience is going fast you are probably not getting high precision or speed from your dog.


Fast is subjective I guess. Me and my trainer are tackling everything at a steady but slow methodical pace . Ironically we are progressing much faster than the other young dogs that are working with different trainer's, which seem to be working at a faster pace with more intensity than us .

What happened is we caught a few people's eye ( including the other trainer's ) while doing obedience on the field. They said we are looking really good and were suggesting to my trainer that we're ready to start adding stuff to our obedience.

l think I'll have a word with my trainer and tell him I'm extremely happy with the pace we are currently working at. End of the day what he is doing is working for us.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

How is your focused heeling coming along?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The jump and a frame were pretty easy to add. I had to do some homework on the jump to get him to go over it coming back, but that was one week. The A frame took one session of about 5-10 minutes. Just make sure you get good mechanics on the jump, otherwise he could hurt himself. The A frame mechanics(not jumping off the top) are important, but it’s more of a long term concern.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> How is your focused heeling coming along?


Really well.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The jump and a frame were pretty easy to add. I had to do some homework on the jump to get him to go over it coming back, but that was one week. The A frame took one session of about 5-10 minutes. Just make sure you get good mechanics on the jump, otherwise he could hurt himself. The A frame mechanics(not jumping off the top) are important, but it’s more of a long term concern.


I'm definitely not in any rush to add these things. I want to be sure he's an appropriate age also I'm wary about adding too much too fast as I'm a begginer. I don't want to get overwhelmed at the risk of my communication with my pup suffering.

My trainer understands this anyways. I think what happened is we looked really good on the field and others were trying to influence him to pick up the pace a bit . 


End of the day what he's currently doing is working for us. So I don't see a need to change anything.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Loki.777 said:


> I'm definitely not in any rush to add these things. I want to be sure he's an appropriate age also I'm wary about adding too much too fast as I'm a begginer. I don't want to get overwhelmed at the risk of my communication with my pup suffering.


I don’t know how your training goes at club, but I wouldn’t worry about adding them in until I was a close to trialing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The thing with IGP is we ask these dogs to go over a full meter jump, in drive after a prey object, without teaching them launching points and extension so many go over like kamikaze's and land with full impact on their front. Many start hitting and knocking the jump and then start twisting their bodies as they go over because we just raise the jump without teaching them anything other than "Go Jump". And then the aframe. Let's just keep sending them over so they come off the top instead of teaching them a target at the bottom so they go up and learn to come down SAFELY.

The trainers with any background in horses and jumping or agility cringe seeing this because we know it's wrong and dangerous. Beth Bradley put out a a video on how she teaches a target on the Aframe. it's similiar to what I do. I use caveletti's for the jump to build muscle memory and to teach them to control their bodies over the meter jump (as I raise it).

You have a ton of points in the retrieves. Take your time, build the proper foundations on the equipment to keep your dog healthy and so you don't give up points. I would not wait until right before trial to teach this. There are a hundred little pieces that go into this. 

You can start them as puppies to teach the targeting off the aframe. That's about technique, not about height and impact. You can teach the jumping as puppies over bumps (pvc pipe cut in half). As long as the high impact isn't there. 

But please don't wait until just weeks before a trial and then kamikaze them over this equipment. that's a great way to end up a the neurosurgeon having disks removed from your dog's back. I don't even jump my dog at full height now, and won't until closer to trial, because it's pointless. I care about the technique and her form going over more than I do the height. The other piece to this is where YOU set them up at. It's easy to do with the caveletti's because I pace out my distance for the jump. This is something you need to learn and practice before trial as well. I know it's roughly 6 of my paces to her best launching point so when I pick up the dumbbell, I count how many paces out and how many paces I come back in to straighten her up so I know she in the right spot. 

I think Beth Bradley has a video for the aframe on Petra's site. Her dog's back injury ended his career very young so she's put a lot of thought into minimizing impact injuries.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Loki, at 5 months of age, my working line girl was not only jumping DOWN the 5 steps from the kitchen to the front door, she was jumping UP them, too! Needless to say, I tried to teach her this was NOT a good idea, but she refused to listen!

She's 6 years old now, and her joints are just fine.

Good point, Jax! Yes, a lot of schutzhund folk have no clue about the correct mechanics of jumping. One guy in our club was forcing his dog to keep its head up as it went over the jump, so it was unable to curve its spine, and jumped with a flat back. Of course, it kept knocking the fence down. Yikes! My former riding instructor would have had a fit. He made sure we understood things like stride length, judging the correct takeoff point, etc.

I couldn't stand watching, and went up and explained to him why the dog was likely to get hurt unless he gave his head more freedom!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Loki.777 - sent you videos


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

All the young dogs at our club when encountering the A frame for the first time have one of two reactions. 
They either try to skirt it the first time or two, like, "Hey, we need not jump over this thing! We can go around it, see?"
Or, they go full tilt up to the top, and want to jump down as described above. Sometimes they also leap off to the side on the downward trajectory. 

I have only been going since last March, but I don't recall any dog less than 10 months going over. And I can think of a couple of 10-11 month old regulars who have not done it. 

Agree with the poster above, that one can try to discourage renegade jumping around the house in younger dogs, but if the spirit moves them, they're going to do it. 
We have two stories, hardwood floors only haphazardly covered with rugs, concrete steps to the backyard and a retaining wall that at it's highest point might be four feet.
At different times, our 10 month old has jumped off or onto all these things.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

BTW, I'm just saying that the launch off the top is what they try to do, not that it is desirable. If you have a link to the videos described above, I'd be interested. 
Right now, I kind of guide my 16 mo. old female down the other side of the A frame by holding her halter handle.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yup, most people do that, to prevent a kamikaze leap!

Here's a good article on the biomechanics of jumping: The Biomechanics of the canine jump and how your dog jumps


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Squidwardp said:


> BTW, I'm just saying that the launch off the top is what they try to do, not that it is desirable. If you have a link to the videos described above, I'd be interested.
> Right now, I kind of guide my 16 mo. old female down the other side of the A frame by holding her halter handle.


They are videos of my training with my dog. They are private but I'll forward the message with the links to you. You can search Beth's video's. Or Schutzhund Kevin has a good video showing how the more advanced training would look like. It's really a targeting thing that agility people use. IGP people are using agility more and more to develop form in all aspects.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What they are saying is put a target at the bottom of the a frame, like the tug or toy. This should lead to the dog climbing down the backside to get the toy. It's the same way I see the palisade(wall climb in french ring) taught.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> What they are saying is put a target at the bottom of the a frame, like the tug or toy. This should lead to the dog climbing down the backside to get the toy. It's the same way I see the palisade(wall climb in french ring) taught.


That's not what I'm saying  I would never use a toy as a target. That is sending them over in drive and I don't want that when I'm teaching form and technique.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Squidwardp said:


> BTW, I'm just saying that the launch off the top is what they try to do, not that it is desirable. If you have a link to the videos described above, I'd be interested.
> Right now, I kind of guide my 16 mo. old female down the other side of the A frame by holding her halter handle.


I added you to the conversation so you can see the videos.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> That's not what I'm saying  I would never use a toy as a target. That is sending them over in drive and I don't want that when I'm teaching form and technique.


Why don’t you just post the video then instead of trying to be so cryptic?


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

Disclaimer: Not a GSD, not my video

Here is a video of Bogan's grand-sire, Dynamic's Solid As a Rock, PT, TD, JHD, IPO3

IMO, it illustrates wonderful body mechanics and technique. Granted, boxers are a generally smaller and "square" dog, the same principles apply. I really appreciate the slo-mo because it really gives me a mental frame-of-reference to which I can refer.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Regarding the hurdle, it helps to start training it with the dog very close to the hurdle so he learns to jump up as opposed to starting off from a distance were the dog will get a lot of momentum and go more forward and less high. Obviously you don't start at the full height. You are imprinting the dog to learn to go up more than out and then gradually add distance.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> Why don’t you just post the video then instead of trying to be so cryptic?


I'm not being cryptic. I stated above to look at Schutzhund Kevin and Beth's videos which are available online. Kevin's is free. Beth's is paid. You made a general statement of something that isn't what I do, whether you are referring to my training or not, I can't say as I know there are some posters I don't see. I just said that wasn't what I did. 

If I choose not to publicly share my personal videos, that's my choice and it should be respected as I would respect your choice and the choice of others. If you choose to share yours publicly to show how you send the dog in drive, as Dave Kroyer (also has pay videos online) does, that is your choice. I don't think there was any reason to be rude to me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding the hurdle, it helps to start training it with the dog very close to the hurdle so he learns to jump up as opposed to starting off from a distance were the dog will get a lot of momentum and go more forward and less high. Obviously you don't start at the full height. You are imprinting the dog to learn to go up more than out and then gradually add distance.


Agreed. I sit my dogs right in front of the jump and lure them over. If you start at a distance they are likely to go around because they don't understand and you aren't teaching them to push off the back to go over.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding the hurdle, it helps to start training it with the dog very close to the hurdle so he learns to jump up as opposed to starting off from a distance were the dog will get a lot of momentum and go more forward and less high.


Chip, I understand your reasoning, and agree that at first the dog should be started closer to the hurdle, but that's NOT how the mechanics of jumping work. The higher the jump, the further back the takeoff has to be. I'm more familiar with horse jumping - if a horse gets too close to the jump before taking off, it will knock the rails down for sure! It's much harder for an animal to jump straight up than to have a nice, wide arch to the jump.


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

I view the Chip/Jax method as one of the first steps of a progression and I believe that shaping with luring is most people's "step 1".

With some dogs and very low hurdles (sometimes, no need to actually jump) I've approached this skill as Chip & Jax do. Other dogs, I've found, grasp the concept better if we approach (on a lead) the hurdle in motion. My goal for my dogs, at this early stage of learning this skill, is to understand and perform "going over" not "around". Generally this teaching phase is very short- 5 reps for one dog, 30min and up for others.

Once they know to go _over_, I'll raise the height a bit (just enough to illicit an actual jump) and work on proper mechanics from there.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I'm just saying if you start out teaching the hurdle from a distance, you imprint a more forward motion as opposed to an up and forward motion or an arch as you said.. As I said, you start at a very doable height and as you increase the height you increase the distance. Suzanne Clothier has a paperback book the describes her method of teaching jumping. She talks about knowing the length of your dog's stride, rhythm, etc.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Suzanne Clothier!!! That's the name I was trying to remember!!!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I'm not being cryptic. I stated above to look at Schutzhund Kevin and Beth's videos which are available online. Kevin's is free. Beth's is paid. You made a general statement of something that isn't what I do, whether you are referring to my training or not, I can't say as I know there are some posters I don't see. I just said that wasn't what I did.
> 
> If I choose not to publicly share my personal videos, that's my choice and it should be respected as I would respect your choice and the choice of others. If you choose to share yours publicly to show how you send the dog in drive, as Dave Kroyer (also has pay videos online) does, that is your choice. I don't think there was any reason to be rude to me.


It’s not about sharing your personal videos. What I’m after is an actual discussion about what your talking about. It’s a lot easier to understand what your are saying if you show videos of it. You have already referred to other people’s public videos that show what you are talking about. I don’t see a lot of explanation from you on it. Also, no one is saying sign up for a trial and 2 weeks before start teaching the hurdle and A frame. When I say close to trialing, I mean the dog already has put to together the rest of the routine and is ready to go in the other phases, then I would add the jumps in last.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A good way of foundation training is to use a place box and self discovery. A pup is reinforced with food for successive approximations toward the place box until the pup/dog learns that going to the place box is very reinforcing. Over time, you can put a place box on each side of the hurdle. You tell your dog “place” to get him in one of the place boxes and reward with a toy. Repeat and stand at the hurdle and give the hup command and place and reward when the dog jumps from one place box over the hurdle and goes to the place box on the other side of the hurdle and reward with the toy. Keep the height of the hurdle low initially and make sure the dog knows that “place” means to go to the place box. This clarifies the training very much. Then you increase expectations by raising the height of the hurdle and increasing the distance of the place boxes. Place boxes greatly facilitate self discovery and learning when pups are exposed to them at an early age.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I believe Dave Kroyer uses a "box" target for the jumps. And if you look up Schutzhund Kevin and Beth, what they is doing on the Aframe. I used the 'board" for the aframe. I placed the board at the bottom of the aframe and lured her down until her front feet were on the board and back on the wall, gradually moving the board away. At first my criteria was she had to stop at the bottom with back feet on the board so she understood to go all the way down. Then stop at the bottom before going to the board. Now she's doing what would be a running contact over the aframe to the board where she is rewarded by me. 

Deb Z had a great video showing how to teach a young dog the board and the value of it. It's used in so many aspects of training for obedience and protection. I don't think it's up anymore though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lou has a good video online along with a detailed explanation




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Schutzhund-Training.com - Jumps and Walls







www.schutzhund-training.com


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

These have been very helpful, thanks. Our club puts a lot of emphasis on heeling and protection, and more recently, tracking. Less instruction on the jumps and the A frame, so this helps.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Squidwardp - I thought Beth's online instruction was on dogsports4u but it looks like they can accessed thru her page at a very reasonable price. 


Online Classes Beth Bradley


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

Thanks!


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