# Ignoring commands not from the handler



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I have been stuck in trying to figure out what language I want to train Grim in. One reason being I don't want him following commands given by people other than me. It's easier to train in English because I'm not fluent in any other language and I'd rather not carry a 'cheat sheet' with me. However, it's important to me that he listen ONLY to the handler. There are many reasons for why I've only taught him 'sit' and 'down' and this is one of them. 

We were in Petsmart the other day, and they have their people walking around. Grim was interested in everything, so his attention span may have played a part, I don't know. One guy came up with treats and told Grim to 'sit' several times. This is one command that Grim knows and does well. Grim ignored his command. I told Grim to sit, and he did. I don't know if this will continue, though. I guess you actually train through correction for a dog to only listen to the handler?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

No, it does not have to be purely out of correction. My dogs will ignore you if you gave them a command, especially if you don't have a treat or incentive for them. They have no reason to listen to a stranger. They listen to my trainer, they listen to my family and friends, and they listen to me. That's their circle and who they respect so they listen to those people. My GSDs usually ignore a stranger for the first several visits before they even bother making eye contact. My dogs are aloof. I have used correction on all my dogs so they have an added urge and need to obey me. It will be most polished with me and I doubt anyone else (trainer being the exception) would be able to get my dogs through a ob routine for example. 

But in the end, who cares if they listen to you only? He's a dog. Let him enjoy himself. If someone gives him a treat and tells him to sit, he can sit and take it or ignore it. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter in the end. You will be the only one there on the field doing the routine when you trial. What is the need for him to be blindly devoted to just you?

Some dogs ignore all others and only heed their person. Some dogs are suckers for attention and praise. Depends on the dog. But I guess I don't see why you are held up on this issue?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I find that my dog really only wants to please me, and chances are he isn't going to listen to somebody that he doesn't know anyways. I wouldn't correct him if he did, since it really isn't the end of the world if he does sit for somebody else. Plus I think obedience to another person comes in handy when my boyfriend is alone with the dogs or I have a pet sitter in my house that needs to have some basic amount of control over them. 

I think it's more than likely that the dog will want to please the handler before any random stranger anyways, and if you have a problem with people giving your dog commands, then just tell that person to stop rather than correct your dog for doing what he's told.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Both of my boys have been taught in English, because that is the language I speak (plus I felt rebelious because I was the ONLY one at my club that didn't use german commands) My dogs naturally don't listen to other people and if someone is telling them to do something (rare after puppyhood) I just politely tell them my dog is "trained" not to follow commands from other people. This is also something that you can (and need to for the long down) proof once you are further along in training. They have to ignore another handler saying "come" when in a stay. You don't need to use corrections per say, just reward when they don't pay attention to the other handler.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

One reason is I don't want him taking food from others when he's older. That will avoid someone poisoning him. Another is I'm taking him into 'real life' situation training and I don't want anyone else telling him to attack someone. I also don't want a stranger controlling my dog for 'bad' purposes. If he's protecting me, I don't want the aggressor to be able to tell him 'down' or whatever. However, with his personality I doubt he'd listen anyway. BUT I've read things about having others not able to control your dog for a list of reasons and all made sense. Seemingly good intentions or not, I don't want him taking direction from just anyone... and by that I mean people he doesn't know.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mine does not take treats from anyone she doesn't know. I didn't train her to do this, she just does. She will sit for a stranger, but she looks at me first. Now when my nieces and nephew come over, they are constantly giving her commands and she does them. A stranger isn't going to come out of the blue and just give commands(especially a full size GSD) and if they do the owner has plenty of time to stop them.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

KristiM said:


> Both of my boys have been taught in English, because that is the language I speak (plus I felt rebelious because I was the ONLY one at my club that didn't use german commands) My dogs naturally don't listen to other people and if someone is telling them to do something (rare after puppyhood) I just politely tell them my dog is "trained" not to follow commands from other people. This is also something that you can (and need to for the long down) proof once you are further along in training. They have to ignore another handler saying "come" when in a stay. You don't need to use corrections per say, just reward when they don't pay attention to the other handler.


OK, thanks! That's what I'll do then. It's so much easier to train in English, LOL! He's stubborn enough now... and is starting to ignore strangers already. Just a couple weeks ago he was much more into 'pet me' and now he's like "Hi. Ok, done with you". LOL!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jag said:


> One reason is I don't want him taking food from others when he's older. That will avoid someone poisoning him.


Untrue. Go look up how to do food avoidance training. Not as easy as preventing others from giving him treats. Even if he doesn't take food from someone, a nice piece of meat will entice even the baddest working dog. Also, if you are averse to correction training, I'm not sure how you plan on doing food avoidance training. Ecollar factors in heavily in this type of training.



> Another is I'm taking him into 'real life' situation training and I don't want anyone else telling him to attack someone. I also don't want a stranger controlling my dog for 'bad' purposes. If he's protecting me, I don't want the aggressor to be able to tell him 'down' or whatever.


Once you progress for about a year in the sport/pp, you will see why this will not happen. An irrational fear at this point. A good working dog in full fight drive is not going to heed a down from a stranger. 



> However, with his personality I doubt he'd listen anyway. BUT I've read things about having others not able to control your dog for a list of reasons and all made sense. Seemingly good intentions or not, I don't want him taking direction from just anyone... and by that I mean people he doesn't know.


Not just him and his personality. A good GSD will usually not be readily willing to listen others. I had Goldens in the past that would give their first born for a snack from a stranger. Wiva won't even bother with you until she knows you. 

You are with your dog when it is in public and around others, correct? So what is this fear that he will indiscriminately listen to others? Relax and enjoy the dog. Realize that if you take him out in public, you no longer get to control how OTHERS react to your dog. If you take issue with how others give him commands, don't take the dog there. I don't see the reason for petsmart visits anyway. Exposing dogs to diseases, strangers and liability. Egads....why put yourself and your dog through that??


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Just because you're training with the English language doesn't mean you have to use the common words for the commands. "Sit" could easily be "Park", lol. Your other concerns seem unlikely (stranger telling him to attack) or unrelated (taking food from strangers) to the words you choose.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Why do people think I'm against correction training?  I'm not. I'd rather work what I can without correction, but I certainly don't have an issue with it to get what I want out of training. Including Ecollar use if needed. I just don't like jumping to the harshest tool first. 

Full fight drive is one thing. A drunk moron coming up being a potential threat is another. 

I'm taking him out with me. We had to go to Petsmart for food. There aren't a lot of places here that will let you bring your dogs inside. He's vaccinated. No more germs there than in a training class or field. He's changing, and I need to see his reactions to people, unknown situations, and other animals. If I could take him into the grocery store or where ever, I would do that, too. I'm limited on where I can take him....but it's not like we go visit there just to visit. If we don't need anything from there, we don't go.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jag said:


> Full fight drive is one thing. A drunk moron coming up being a potential threat is another.


A drunk moron is going to give your dog a command through his stupor and somehow use your dog for nefarious purposes against you?? Again, once you go through the training, you will see why this will not happen if you do it right.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> Just because you're training with the English language doesn't mean you have to use the common words for the commands. "Sit" could easily be "Park", lol. Your other concerns seem unlikely (stranger telling him to attack) or unrelated (taking food from strangers) to the words you choose.


That's because sometimes I steer into the 'unrelated' since my stroke. I think of too many things at once and they get jumbled sometimes. Sorry!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> A drunk moron is going to give your dog a command through his stupor and somehow use your dog for nefarious purposes against you?? Again, once you go through the training, you will see why this will not happen if you do it right.


Bad example. Nevermind. I don't want to use a real example.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No worries Jag - I just didn't want you to overthink this, lol. These issues are worlds away from the simple matter of which words you're using.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Be aware that if you teach him food refusal, you may have a tough time if you ever have to board him or leave him with someone else.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't plan on boarding him. I believe there has to be a way to teach him if it doesn't come from my hand then it has to come from his bowl. He's well aware of what bowl is his already.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I know you don't "plan" on boarding but sometimes things come up and you are forced to, or the dog has to have a stay at the vet hospital, or whatever. I'm just saying, at some point in his life there's the likelihood that someone else is going to have to feed him. I am sure there is a way to train him that if it's in his bowl, it's okay. I have never trained food refusal to a dog so I am not sure how you would do it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jag said:


> I don't plan on boarding him. I believe there has to be a way to teach him if it doesn't come from my hand then it has to come from his bowl. He's well aware of what bowl is his already.


These dogs are smart and I think there is a simple way to train this or at least in my mind its simple Take your dog to petsmart and have one of the employees(they are generally friendly) attempt to give your dog a treat, tell your dog no, then you give him his treat as a reward....Repeat as necessary. I think this can work:crazy: Try different employees, so its not the same one and I think the dog will get the idea.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've noticed very few people ever ask to give my dog a treat unless I'm at my training club (where treats are a plenty and I can trust all of them). Most people even at pet stores don't carry treats or just don't care to treat a dog. Many won't even come near a GSD lol, the ones that do just pet him usually.

I trained in English...my dog won't listen to anyone but the extended family. Its really funny when my grandpa talks to him in Russian and somehow the pup knows what to do...and so he gets treats lol. But other people get completely ignored. He would never come to someone strange calling him, he pretty much just ignores people when we're out and about. I don't worry about anyone poisoning my dog because I never leave my dog anywhere where he's unsupervised and someone can get to him to poison him. And he'll never be put in that kind of situation.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can train your dog so he only listens to you.
you can teach him not to eat out other people
hands. when you train your dog having people call
him, feed him, distract him will teach him to listen to you.
i've been out with my dog and people will call him. before
he goes to them he'll look at me for an ok. i normally say
"it's ok", "go say hello", "ok" and then he'll go to whomever 
called him. when i taught my dog to "stay" i use to have
people call him, walk up to him with their dogs, pull his leash,
etc. once he learned to ignore the distractions it carried over
to ignoring people and other dogs.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I didn't use any treats to train Kyleigh. When I'm at the off leash park and I see people giving their dogs a treat, I call her over and tell her to sit. She does. I had one person offer her a treat and it was HILARIOUS ... she sniffed it and walked away LMAO (maybe it was a "cheapo" treat and not the raw bone she's used to?

I've also trained Kyleigh NOT to approach ANYONE, but rather wait for me to say, "come say hello". I did this in a couple of places, and started young! First place was the off leash dog park in an out of the way area. I left her leash dragging on the ground. I cajoled a couple of my friends to meet me there. They were walking towards us and when she ran over to them, I simply stepped on the leash and told her STOP. She stopped, my friends stopped. I walked up beside her, picked up the leash and said "come say hello" and we approached my friends. My friends held their hands out for her to sniff, and she moved around them sniffing, checking them out and then she ignored them. 

I did this all over the place, always with friends that I knew would respect what I was trying to do. Now, when I'm out in public with her, she doesn't even move towards other people. And when someone asks if they can pet her, I might or might not, depends on my mood, and them!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

qbchottu said:


> Untrue. Go look up how to do food avoidance training. Not as easy as preventing others from giving him treats. Even if he doesn't take food from someone, a nice piece of meat will entice even the baddest working dog. Also, if you are averse to correction training, I'm not sure how you plan on doing food avoidance training. Ecollar factors in heavily in this type of training.
> 
> Once you progress for about a year in the sport/pp, you will see why this will not happen. An irrational fear at this point. A good working dog in full fight drive is not going to heed a down from a stranger.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. 

I do allow and encourage people to give my dogs treats, especally at the pet store and vet clinic. My dogs see a counter and they instantly think food. Yet in no way do they care what these people have to say to them the minute I either start to move away or tell them to do something. I am always first in their eyes.

I also only train in english - also the only one in the area that does because I don't speak german so why the heck would I train in german? My dogs will sit or down for people for treats, but won't listen to them when they are working. I don't worry about what other people are going to try and command my dogs to do, because my dogs are just going to ignore them. This isn't something I had to teach them, it's just how they see things.

At no time will my dogs randomly attack on command, not even from me, if they don't perceive a threat - ok, they will bite the helper given the opportunity, but they have a history of biting him and love doing it - but not anyone in the general public and they would never, ever, attack me under any circumstances.

I think you are seriously over thinking this and can just relax. Go with the training and you will discover your dog will be just fine without you going a bit crazy in the over protective department.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i taught my last dog not to take food from other people, not to
eat off the ground and not to eat or drink out of another dogs bowl.
one day we were and he got over heated. a friend of mine lived
up the street from where we were. i ran to my friends house
and we came back and got my dog. we hosed him down. my friend
gave him a bowl of water that his dog used. my dog refused to drink
out of it. i hand to give him water by hand.



Freestep said:


> Be aware that if you teach him food refusal, you may have a tough time if you ever have to board him or leave him with someone else.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if the dog is taught not to eat out of the hands of strangers that
will definitely lower the dogs chances of being poisoned by hand.
the OP can definitely teach his dog not to eat a piece of meat
that's laying around and it's not hard to teach. my last dog was
taught not to eat out of the hands of other people and not to
eat off the ground. before we went on walks i use to place
meat along the path we were going to walk. when my went for the
meat i would pull him away while saying "no" or "leave it". i did
the manuver over and over. finally he learned not to eat off the ground.



Jag said:


> One reason is I don't want him taking food from others when he's older. That will avoid someone poisoning him.





qbchottu said:


> Untrue. Go look up how to do food avoidance training. Not as easy as preventing others from giving him treats. Even if he doesn't take food from someone, a nice piece of meat will entice even the baddest working dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> Why do people think I'm against correction training? I'm not. I'd rather work what I can without correction, but I certainly don't have an issue with it to get what I want out of training. Including Ecollar use if needed. * I just don't like jumping to the harshest tool first. * [Emphasis Added]


If you think that an Ecollar is _"the harshest tool,"_ please don't use one without getting some instruction. 

Not allowing a dog to take treats from a stranger *does not train a dog* not to do that. No amount of training, unless it directly addresses this issue, will stop a dog from obeying commands from a stranger under the right (wrong) conditions. 

The ONLY way to say to a dog, "I don't want you to do that again." is with punishment. As always, the dog determines what level of punishment it will take to accomplish the goal.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> the OP can definitely teach his dog not to eat a piece of meat that's laying around and it's not hard to teach. my last dog was taught not to eat out of the hands of other people and not to eat off the ground. before we went on walks i use to place meat along the path we were going to walk. when my went for the meat i would pull him away while saying "no" or "leave it". i did the manuver over and over. finally he learned not to eat off the ground.


I'll suggest that your dog your dog is only trained not to eat _"meat"_ that is on the ground along a familiar path, while you are in close proximity to him and while he's on leash. True "poisonproofing" is quite difficult, very time consuming and is something that will have to be continued throughout the dog's life, if it's to be effective.


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## tropicalsun (Jun 7, 2011)

Train your dog In English. Quit worrying about mythical scenarios. Develop a good bond with your dog in your language and all will be fine. Plus, you won't as silly as many do who attempt to train in a German yet can't master the pronunciation of a half dozen words. It's embarrassing. Train your dog in English.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

It was starting to bug me that Hunter would sitz and platz whenever we'd go on a walk with Stark and Zefra, every time Liz would give the command. I would prevent him from responding by walking faster with a gentle "ah ah!" ... then a few minutes later I would give the command myself and reward for it. When we go on walks we always throw obedience in, so it didn't take long where Hunter would 95% of the time only respond to command from my mouth.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> I'll suggest that your dog your dog is only trained not to eat _"meat"_ that is on the ground along a familiar path, while you are in close proximity to him and while he's on leash. True "poisonproofing" is quite difficult, very time consuming and is something that will have to be continued throughout the dog's life, if it's to be effective.


Nice post Lou.

Why would anyone want to train this anyway. The odds of someone poisoning your dog by feeding them by hand are way out there.

The odds of having to leave your dog somewhere that someone else will have to feed them are great.

A stay at the vets, kenneling for a trip, sickness etc...

I want other people to be able to feed my dogs. Not random strangers but normal life situations.

Jag; I've had dogs for a long time and no one has randomly told my dog/s to down or sit. The dogs would probably ignore them anyway.

Doggiedad; You have said in other threads that dogs belong inside and your dog sleeps with you and GF. When would someone have the opportunity to poison your dog.

Much ado about nothing.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

"Much ado about nothing" to you maybe, not to me. I'm not going to share my personal life and reasons for this line of thinking here, but it has a rational basis.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> If you think that an Ecollar is _"the harshest tool,"_ please don't use one without getting some instruction.
> 
> Not allowing a dog to take treats from a stranger *does not train a dog* not to do that. No amount of training, unless it directly addresses this issue, will stop a dog from obeying commands from a stranger under the right (wrong) conditions.
> 
> The ONLY way to say to a dog, "I don't want you to do that again." is with punishment. As always, the dog determines what level of punishment it will take to accomplish the goal.


Ah, yes... do you have a program set so when the word "e-collar" is posted it alerts you or something? For a "trainer" you ONLY post on these threads. Interesting.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Elaine said:


> I think you are seriously over thinking this and can just relax. Go with the training and you will discover your dog will be just fine without you going a bit crazy in the over protective department.





LouCastle said:


> The ONLY way to say to a dog, "I don't want you to do that again." is with punishment. As always, the dog determines what level of punishment it will take to accomplish the goal.





LouCastle said:


> True "poisonproofing" is quite difficult, very time consuming and is something that will have to be continued throughout the dog's life, if it's to be effective.





Jack's Dad said:


> The odds of someone poisoning your dog by feeding them by hand are way out there.
> 
> The odds of having to leave your dog somewhere that someone else will have to feed them are great.


^^^^^Well said.



Jag said:


> "Much ado about nothing" to you maybe, not to me. I'm not going to share my personal life and reasons for this line of thinking here, but it has a rational basis.


Jag: Poison proofing is a serious step in training. Something I would not even attempt on a young dog. Or even any dog for that matter. Think about the DRIVE for food. It is a basic, carnal instinct. It is an incredibly important motivational tool in our arsenal. We breed for dogs with food drive. Before I track, I want my dog ravenous and chomping at the bits for the next treat. Just take a step back and recognize the MANY negatives that can potentially come out of this. If you plan on training with food or using it as an incentive, take note that aversive training around food has consequences. Adding to the others, the dog WILL need to be in someone else's care during its lifetime - factor that into your "my dog must obey me only" thinking. Be aware that for food aversive training to work, you must be VERY quick and experienced to catch the dog at the right time. Regardless of the tool used, corrections are useless unless they are done at the right time with fairness, forethought and balance. Otherwise, this will be a disaster. I'm with Lou. Get a trainer that is used to doing this. And even then, ask to see proof of his success and work. 

Emergencies happen. I don't plan on dying in a car accident, but if I did, I would have complete peace of mind knowing my dogs would be cared for and not stressed unnecessarily by my departure. Be careful - corrections associated with food can have serious detrimental side effects. 

Say what you will about Lou, but I enjoy his posts and his POV. He posts in the ecollar threads the say way I post in showline or schh threads. It's what we know and have an interest in, so we post accordingly. No need to get defensive Jag. We are only voicing our input and having a discussion. Debates are no fun if we all agree


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

He's going to a trainer. I didn't say I planned to start food aversion training right now. Something was said that I ended up going into more detail about.. that included future plans. I don't mean to be rude, but you don't know me or my personal needs. When you've had a GSD killed by someone, and that someone is still breathing.. you plan. Enough said. I didn't ask for Lou's advice, and he's well aware that I don't agree with him. When someone posts that I know doesn't agree with my viewpoints, I don't keep shoving them down someone's throat. I also don't go through their posts line by line trying to convince the person why I'm right. I find it obnoxious. If I've offended someone, I try to make nice. I look to their positive aspects. Some people overlook this and continue 'stalking' for lack of a better word. 

I've seen you offer support, encouragement, and suggestions that were outside of those two things. Trainers are supposed to be well rounded and able to offer info. on training with more than one method or tool. When I don't see that, I become concerned. I'm sure there are people here who are crazy about him, and that's great. More power to them. I don't. I agree to disagree, but why, then, continue to hound me? I've read his website. I can put up a website too. It may work for some dogs. It may not work for others. These are NOT cookie cutter animals. A one dimensional trainer isn't for me. Grim won't be trained that way, and it shouldn't bother this guy at all. I'd just like him to leave me alone. Period.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jag said:


> When you've had a GSD killed by someone, and that someone is still breathing.. you plan.


If someone maliciously and intentionally killed my dog, either he would be in jail or I would be for strangling him. 

If that is what is behind your motivation and fears regarding his training, then we are just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You have a bigger problem than food aversion training if there is a tangible, immediate threat to your life, property and safety. I would look to a higher authority on this matter - not look to a dog for safety or protection. 



> I'd just like him to leave me alone. Period.


Sorry, but the fact of the matter is that you are posting on a public forum. The most you can do is place him on ignore. But once you put your thoughts out into the world wide web, you don't get to pick and choose who responds. So just shrug it off and move on. If you don't wish to take it to heart, no harm, no foul. It might be of use to someone else and if you don't care to hear his side, don't respond!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> .... then we are just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.



This may be the single greatest post I have ever seen on here.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Aimee


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Jag said:


> Some people overlook this and continue 'stalking' for lack of a better word.
> 
> I'd just like him to leave me alone. Period.


He's hardly stalking you. Some of us have a whole lot of experience and know what we are talking about, and we periodically make an attempt to stop the spread of misinformation on this forum. Lou's thing is the misinformation spread about e-collars and he goes out of his way to be informative and fairly nice about it.

If you don't want to use an e-collar on your dog, no one is going to make you. When you keep saying things like e-collars are the harshest tool out there, you are going to get a response. The response isn't necessarily directed at you, but to prevent anyone else from believing this sort of nonsense.

If you don't want to see Lou's responses to you, you can always put him on ignore. That won't stop him from responding, but you won't have to see them.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't know how your dog was killed, and if you don't volunteer the info, I'm not going to ask, but that's very disturbing. However, poison proofing isn't something that can be taught the same way that other behaviors can. It's true that food is a basic need, and training a dog to ignore it is no simple feat. 

I actually worry about this myself, because I have a neighbor who's unstable, hates me, and hates GSDs. But to truly poison proof a dog would be incredibly stressful and I don't want to put my dogs through it. I don't leave them out unattended, I check the yard for items, and I pray that nothing happens. I don't know if that's enough, just like I don't know if I'm being paranoid and assuming the worst.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

There is no 'higher authority' that will do squat. I can't afford to go to jail. I'm not talking about EVER putting a puppy in the position where I expect it to protect me. I want to protect him. Very little useful advise from this thread. 

Elaine- please tell me what is a more 'harsh' training tool? Besides beating the dog. Collars go from flat, to martingale, to prong, to e-collar. Is there something else that I'm missing? (Other than choke collars) *I* didn't bring up e-collars, someone else did. A PM to that poster would have been adequate. There's not a lot of 'misinformation' about ecollars that this person's correcting. There's a difference of opinions. When the conversation's about putting an E-collar on a young pup, Lou has nothing to say about it. When people say "that's an awful young pup to put an Ecollar on, IMO" *POOF* there he is. 

How many times have we said when looking for a trainer, make sure that the trainer is diverse in tools they use? Every. Single. Time. How many times is it also said to take the dog to a trainer so they can *see* the dog/pup and do a proper evaluation? It only makes logical sense. So I'm sorry I'm not a fan of the club... but coming onto my threads and trying to twist what I say to create drama just doesn't fly with me. I'm tired of being told by others how I feel about E-collars. I've already stated it over and over and I'm done with it. He even made some accusation about 'hiding behind a name' on the board. Trainers need to be as open to all methods of training as the handlers, IMO.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Untrue. Go look up how to do food avoidance training. Not as easy as preventing others from giving him treats. Even if he doesn't take food from someone, a nice piece of meat will entice even the baddest working dog. Also, if you are averse to correction training, I'm not sure how you plan on doing food avoidance training. Ecollar factors in heavily in this type of training.


Where is the 'misconception' about ecollars in this post that required Lou to even bother to 'correct' it?? It wasn't about correcting misconceptions at all. It was about him disagreeing with MY opinion. Which, last time I checked, I'm allowed to have.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jag said:


> Where is the 'misconception' about ecollars in this post that required Lou to even bother to 'correct' it??


I don't think that is the post Lou or Elaine were referring to. I like ecollars when they are used correctly and in the right hands, just as with any correction tool or training device. YOU called it the "harshest tool" if I remember correctly!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I don't think that is the post Lou or Elaine were referring to. I like ecollars when they are used correctly and in the right hands, just as with any correction tool or training device. YOU called it the "harshest tool" if I remember correctly!


Yes, because I believe it is. My opinion. Doesn't mean I won't use it.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jag said:


> Very little useful advise from this thread.


What exactly were you looking for? Anytime you ask for training advice, keep this in mind: the only thing two trainers will agree on is how much the third one sucks. 

We all have different training philosophies. It's up to you to determine what is best for your dog and you. You ask for training tips and you will get a dozen viewpoints. But to lash out against those that take their FREE time to reply to you is not kosher in my book. Chillax friend. It's just the interwebs! No reason to take it seriously!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Nice post Lou.
> 
> Why would anyone want to train this anyway. *The odds of someone poisoning your dog by feeding them by hand are way out there.*
> 
> ...


Very true about hand *poisoning - my dog would be more likely to "bite the hand that feeds him" , anyway.*


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> What exactly were you looking for? Anytime you ask for training advice, keep this in mind: the only thing two trainers will agree on is how much the third one sucks.
> 
> We all have different training philosophies. It's up to you to determine what is best for your dog and you. You ask for training tips and you will get a dozen viewpoints. But to lash out against those that take their FREE time to reply to you is not kosher in my book. Chillax friend. It's just the interwebs! No reason to take it seriously!


I didn't ask for advice. I got lots of unsolicited advice, but the only place I even had a question mark was "I guess you have to train through correction to get a dog to only listen to the handler". He's going to a good trainer very soon. I'm sure we'll cover all that there. The conversation was diverted from my original topic (which happens) but people saying there's no reason to worry about some one poisoning your dog... maybe that's YOUR situation, but not mine.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

So again, what are you looking for? What is the point of your post? If it is so we can all agree, then say that right from the get go so we don't have to bother wasting our time giving you our "very little useful advise"


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jag said:


> *I didn't ask for advice.* I got lots of unsolicited advice, but the only place I even had a question mark was "I guess you have to train through correction to get a dog to only listen to the handler". He's going to a good trainer very soon. I'm sure we'll cover all that there. The conversation was diverted from my original topic (which happens) but people saying there's no reason to worry about some one poisoning your dog... maybe that's YOUR situation, but not mine.


From your first post =* "I guess you actually train through correction for a dog to only listen to the handler? "*

*I guess we must all apologize profuslly to you! I know that I thought that your question WAS asking for advice. I have a habit of thinking when someone asks a question, that they just might want an answer.*

*But I would also guess that maybe when someone knows just about everything, then asking a question (like you seem to have done in your first post (remember?)) is just another way to educate the rest of us.*

*So we will just wish you good luck with your dog.*


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Why all the huge red font? It was more of a conversational question, not an 'I need help' question. I am not one of the few on here that claim to know everything, or act as though they do. Funny, there were so many on here telling me what I 'didn't need to worry about' when they have no idea what I need to worry about. I even have some telling me what I think of certain training tools. Lots of mind readers I guess.  I'm sorry you're all offended. However, the use of the large font and red letters is uncalled for. Maybe (just for a second) think about how you would feel if someone asked you a question and you answered it...to have multiple replies of "you don't need to worry about that. That won't happen." When you're well aware it's a very real possibility, yet even saying so doesn't stop those remarks. Maybe frustrated? I promise you that if I ever give you my opinion on something and you tell me that something is possible to happen to you, I will apologize to you and not in big font.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It seems I saw a lot of folks saying that as the dog grows older, the "aloofness" will set in.

I know for my own dogs, I like that they'll accept treats from strangers, in controlled settings, of course, like vet clinics and pet stores. 
It helps dispel a lot of myths about GSDs, I think, and helps solidify in the dog's mind that people are GOOD. 

My own Dachshund would sell his soul for a treat from a Pet store employee, but when they reach out to pat him, he just turns his back and walks away. 

I'd rather have that, than a dog so afraid or aggressive they can't even enter the pet store. Oh, and if/when an employee does approach, I do ask them to tell the dog to "sit" if I've been training it to do so when given treats.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Maybe he'll decide later he doesn't want treats from people. Right now he's a little piggy and will take treats wherever he is. There are times I wish he'd be afraid, LOL! He walked in there (the first time) like he owned the joint! Same way he went into the vets' offices.  Everyone gave him treats, and I didn't really think about it until later. I think it was one of their trainers who came up to him, not sure. I always carry treats on me when I take him out. When he gets older, I'll talk to the trainer about how to deal with this. Right now I'm OK letting him be a pup. He doesn't seem like a threat to anyone, so shouldn't be a target right now.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> There are times I wish he'd be afraid, LOL! He walked in there (the first time) like he owned the joint! Same way he went into the vets' offices


But that's GOOD. He's not fearful, not cowering, he's confident, just like you want him.
It'd be far worse if he was afraid...he knows you're his leader and you would not subject him to scary or bad things!
Be happy, not disappointed, that he's this way :thumbup: He's everything people want in a Shepherd, and often do not get, due to poor genetics and poor breeding.


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## Aramis' Mummy (Oct 16, 2012)

Jag, I think I can understand where you are coming from. When I was a child one of our dogs was poisoned and she had been trained not to take anything from outside the family . We had another dog that was hung by an ex who was out to hurt us. Luckily that one survived . I get not taking things from strangers. Unfortunately, sometimes no matter how vigilant you are bad things happen to good people and good dogs.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jag said:


> Why all the huge red font? It was more of a conversational question, not an 'I need help' question. I am not one of the few on here that claim to know everything, or act as though they do. Funny, there were so many on here telling me what I 'didn't need to worry about' when they have no idea what I need to worry about. I even have some telling me what I think of certain training tools. Lots of mind readers I guess.  I'm sorry you're all offended. However, the use of the large font and red letters is uncalled for. Maybe (just for a second) think about how you would feel if someone asked you a question and you answered it...to have multiple replies of "you don't need to worry about that. That won't happen." When you're well aware it's a very real possibility, yet even saying so doesn't stop those remarks. Maybe frustrated? I promise you that if I ever give you my opinion on something and you tell me that something is possible to happen to you, I will apologize to you and not in big font.


jag, please chill.

*"RED"* was simply to highlight (BTW - notice that it was YOUR text that I highlighted!

BTW2, I wasn't offended, but thank you.

*BTW3, didn't you just give me your opinion on something?*

Just think, maybe, just maybe, some nice folks on this forum were trying to ease your obvious worry about some nasty stranger telling your poor dog to sit or something like that.

Anyway, please have a nice day!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I've taught my GSD (all my dogs, actually) hand signals as well as verbal commands. Mostly because I work with horses and it's just easier for me to get their attention then provide the request when I've got a horse being silly on the other end of the lead rope. 

My GSD won't take food (treat or otherwise) from a stranger. Nothing I did. His choice. My Mini Doxie will take the treat and run off with it. My Golden won't come near a stranger. My Lacy will not only accept the treat but will insist on any and all food products in or on the stranger's body. 

I do not have a single dog that will obey a command from a stranger. My dogs are just ill behaved that way. 

IMO - Unless the dog has been trained otherwise, I don't buy into the whole different language thing. If I ask a dog to sit and the dog only knows Chinese, after asking the command several times (with a reward at hand) the dog is going to keep trying to comply until it gets the reward.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jag said:


> Maybe he'll decide later he doesn't want treats from people. Right now he's a little piggy and will take treats wherever he is. There are times I wish he'd be afraid, LOL! He walked in there (the first time) like he owned the joint! Same way he went into the vets' offices.


He sounds like a great pup--outgoing and confident. You don't want to mess that up! I am pretty sure that teaching food refusal requires punishment, and I would hate to see him punished for accepting treats from people. Especially at a young age. I'll be interested to hear what your trainer says.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> Ah, yes... do you have a program set so when the word "e-collar" is posted it alerts you or something?


Curious question. I didn't bring up the topic of Ecollars, another poster did. But YOU were the one who spoke ill of them. No I don't have such a program, although it sure would make my life easier. I visit the forums, on an irregular basis, looking for threads involving the Ecollar. There are also some folks who let me know when a discussion on the Ecollar is going downhill. I found this thread all by myself though. 



Jag said:


> For a "trainer" you ONLY post on these threads. Interesting.


Not sure why you placed the word _"trainer"_ in quotation marks, but since I AM a dog trainer, and I specialize in the Ecollar, I respond to those topics that interest me. I rarely take part in discussions that involve other methods as there are plenty of people who are qualified to give advice there. I used to get involved in every discussion of training that came along. Then I discovered that all my spare time was being used up by the Internet. And so I decided to cut back and only take part in discussions that really interested me. I hope that's OK with you. 

MOST people only post on topics that are of interest to them. Some only post in topics that discuss OB competition, some only in herding, some only in SchH, etc. I haven't seen you question their postings, but for some reason you seem to think that it's OK to question my choice of topics. Hmmm.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

qbchottu said:


> Say what you will about Lou, but I enjoy his posts and his POV. He posts in the ecollar threads the say way I post in showline or schh threads. It's what we know and have an interest in, so we post accordingly. No need to get defensive Jag. We are only voicing our input and having a discussion. Debates are no fun if we all agree


Well said yourself. And thanks for the kind words.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> I didn't ask for Lou's advice


You posted on a public forum. That means that anyone who is a member of the forum can comment. If you don't want to read my posts, then I suggest that you take advantage of this forum's ignore feature. Either that, or get yourself some will power, and just pass them by. Someone else may have your same question who WILL benefit from my advice. 



Jag said:


> and he's well aware that I don't agree with him.


I'm sorry but our disagreements have not risen to the point that I remember you or anything about you. I could go back through our posts, do some research and find those disagreements, but that would be a waste of my time. For most people, I treat each new discussion as just that, a new discussion. 



Jag said:


> When someone posts that I know doesn't agree with my viewpoints, I don't keep shoving them down someone's throat.


Either you have a better memory than I do (highly possible, I don't bother to remember the small stuff, too much other knowledge stuffed in there), you took my comments to seriously (also highly possible, my "NO BS" attitude offends some, even when I don't intend any offense, or you need to develop a thicker skin. I could not state one of your viewpoints if I was offered big money for it. 

BTW NOTHING is being shoved down your throat. The mere fact that you think that this can be done in this medium is absurd. If I was your boss and/or in your presence, then PERHAPS it could be done. Here, just hit the "page down" button and read on. 



Jag said:


> I also don't go through their posts line by line trying to convince the person why I'm right.


I don't care if you think I'm right or not. I use multi-quotes because I think that they're the best way to address each thought of the person that I'm dealing with. In cases where people are actually looking for advice, rather than you seem to be doing, looking for people to agree with them, it's quite handy. 



Jag said:


> I find it obnoxious.


Then, I suggest you stop reading my posts. 



Jag said:


> If I've offended someone, I try to make nice.


I meant no offense. There's no mistaking when I DO intend offense, but that only comes after a fairly long series of personal attacks. 



Jag said:


> I look to their positive aspects. Some people overlook this and continue 'stalking' for lack of a better word.


Oh please, _"stalking?????"_ . I post on threads that have to do with the Ecollar. I have no idea, but I'd bet a pretty penny that you've written in many threads here that I've not even seen, much less participated in, with any focus on you, in. Often I don't even look to see who I'm responding to. So far, you've not even risen to the level that has drawn my attention so that I remember who you are or our past disagreements. _"Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep."_ − The Buffalo Springfield, "For What It's Worth." 



Jag said:


> I've seen you offer support, encouragement, and suggestions that were outside of those two things. Trainers are supposed to be well rounded and able to offer info. on training with more than one method or tool. When I don't see that, I become concerned.


Not to worry. I appreciate the concern. I'm just fine. I use just about every tool and method that exists in the world of dog training. But unlike some, I recognize that one method is not appropriate all the time, for all dogs, or for all behaviors. 



Jag said:


> I'm sure there are people here who are crazy about him, and that's great.


LOL. Well, we agree on one thing at least. I know that this is a bell shaped curve. Some love me, some hate me, and most are somewhere in between. 



Jag said:


> More power to them. I don't.


I'm crushed! Gonna go cry myself to sleep now. ROFL. 



Jag said:


> I agree to disagree, but why, then, continue to hound me?


You really think this is about you? Some have a greatly inflated opinion of themselves and their importance to others! 



Jag said:


> I've read his website. I can put up a website too. It may work for some dogs. It may not work for others.


You're right. I'm sure that somewhere out there is a dog that my methods won't work on. I've put Ecollars on well over 3,000 dogs and I've not found him yet. Perhaps you can tell us of a breed of dog, or a particular dog that they won't work on? 



Jag said:


> These are NOT cookie cutter animals.


But they are animals. EVERYONE of them will tend to repeat a behavior that is rewarded and to not repeat a behavior that's punished. 



Jag said:


> A one dimensional trainer isn't for me.


People who say this about me, simply are either lying or just haven't read the truth, that, as I've said many times, I use whatever tool and method is appropriate for the dog and the behavior that I'm training at that moment. 



Jag said:


> Grim won't be trained that way, and it shouldn't bother this guy at all.


It doesn't. 



Jag said:


> I'd just like him to leave me alone. Period.


Then stop posting in the public part of the forum. Pick someone who you think can answer your questions and then either PM or email them. As long as you post publicly, you should realize that I might answer, if the topic interests me. AND if you spout nonsense, about Ecollars, as you did, expect that I WILL respond.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Elaine said:


> He's hardly stalking you. Some of us have a whole lot of experience and know what we are talking about, and we periodically make an attempt to stop the spread of misinformation on this forum. Lou's thing is the misinformation spread about e-collars and he goes out of his way to be informative and fairly nice about it.


Only _"fairly nice?"_ lol. It's really "a chicken or the egg" question. Was I a cop because I had a "No BS" attitude or did I become a cop because I had that attitude? 



Elaine said:


> If you don't want to see Lou's responses to you, you can always put him on ignore. That won't stop him from responding, but you won't have to see them.


I've never put anyone on ignore on any forum that I've ever been on. When I'm in a thread that interests me, I read every post from every poster. I think that the "ignore feature" is a coward's way out. Get some darn will power. If you don't want to read my posts then don't! My feelings won't be hurt either way. If you don't see or read my posts then you won't respond to them. That GREATLY simplifies my life. I will still respond to the nonsense that you put out but you won't be responding. Less work for me. Realize of course, that if someone else quote me, you'll still see my posts. The horror!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> Very little useful advise from this thread.


Sometimes the best advice is NOT to do something. You've gotten plenty of that advice, which BTW, I agree with. 



Jag said:


> Elaine- please tell me what is a more 'harsh' training tool?


Not Elaine but since this is a public forum ... What is _"harsh"_ is ONLY determined by ONE entity in this discussion. What you think is completely irrelevant. It's ONLY how the dog perceives the stimulus, not your personal feelings, not your emotions and not your imagination. I know dogs that wilt at a harsh look from their owner. Those dogs think that's far harsher. I know dogs that wilt when a treat is withheld. Those dogs think that's far harsher. I know dogs that have been taken to the vet with punctures from a pinch collar that was improperly fitted. I'd bet that those dogs think that's far harsher. 

I don't think that the level of stim that makes a dog look at the ground or flick an ear the first time he feels it, is harsh. Here's some video of some children being tortured by someone with an Ecollar. Jag, can you please show us where the _"harsh[ness]"_ is? 






Jag said:


> *I* didn't bring up e-collars, someone else did.


But *YOU* are the one who made the absurd statement about them. 



Jag said:


> A PM to that poster would have been adequate.


But that would not have been seen by the people who read your nonsense. 



Jag said:


> There's not a lot of 'misinformation' about Ecollars that this person's correcting. There's a difference of opinions.


Yep. Some of those opinions are based on emotion and imagination. My opinions are based on 20+ years of having used the tool and placing them on well over 3,000 dogs, NOT ONE of which thought it was _"harsh."_ As always, I leave it to the forum members to decide where the credibility lies. 



Jag said:


> When the conversation's about putting an E-collar on a young pup, Lou has nothing to say about it. When people say "that's an awful young pup to put an Ecollar on, IMO" *POOF* there he is.


Let's just say that you're mistaken. I don't find every discussion about the Ecollar. Since the definition of what a _"young pup"_ is, is vague, let me say, as I've said MANY TIMES HERE, the minimum age that I recommend that an Ecollar be used is six months. 



Jag said:


> How many times have we said when looking for a trainer, make sure that the trainer is diverse in tools they use? Every. Single. Time.


That's good. AS I'VE SAID REPEATEDLY, I use just about every tool and method that exists for dog training. 



Jag said:


> How many times is it also said to take the dog to a trainer so they can *see* the dog/pup and do a proper evaluation? It only makes logical sense.


That's best. What's also "best" is to accept some realities. Not everyone is going to take their dog to a trainer for evaluation. Not everyone has the time or the desire. Not everyone can afford it. Not everyone wants to be bothered. You can whine about how if they're not willing to do it they shouldn't have a dog but the fact is that they're not going to care about your rant. And so, for those folks, there's my website that gives simple, straight-forward instructions on how to use the Ecollar. 



Jag said:


> So I'm sorry I'm not a fan of the club...


Again, I'm crushed. ROFLMAO



Jag said:


> but coming onto my threads and trying to twist what I say to create drama just doesn't fly with me.


I'm sorry but there is no such thing as ownership of a thread, except that the posts belong to the original author. This is a PUBLIC FORUM. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what that means? If you want something to be private, there's a private message feature and emails. As to _"creating drama?"_ You're the one making the bizarre accusation that I'm _"stalking"_ you. Talk about "drama!" 



Jag said:


> I'm tired of being told by others how I feel about E-collars.


I have yet to see anyone tell you how you feel. 



Jag said:


> I've already stated it over and over and I'm done with it.


Seems to me that you're still droning on about it. 



Jag said:


> He even made some accusation about 'hiding behind a name' on the board.


My true name is "Lou Castle." You can find tons of information about me with a Google search ... My website, my phone number, several addresses I've used. YOU OTOH *DO * hide behind a false name on this forum. 



Jag said:


> Trainers need to be as open to all methods of training as the handlers, IMO.


I agree. I am. But I'm an experienced enough trainer to know that some tools and methods are better for some things than others.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> Where is the 'misconception' about ecollars in this post that required Lou to even bother to 'correct' it?? It wasn't about correcting misconceptions at all. It was about him disagreeing with MY opinion. Which, last time I checked, I'm allowed to have.


You wrote this, _"I just don't like jumping to the harshest tool first."_ I didn't even correct your opinion (which BTW is wrong). I only suggested that since this was your opinion, that you don't use one without _"getting some instruction."_ Some opinions ARE simply wrong. You are still _"allowed to"_ hold them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> I didn't ask for advice. I got lots of unsolicited advice, but the only place I even had a question mark was "I guess you have to train through correction to get a dog to only listen to the handler". He's going to a good trainer very soon. I'm sure we'll cover all that there.


Probably not, unless you specifically ask for that. Few trainers go into it. Most people have their hands full just getting the dog to obey them, without worrying about their dog obeying others. 



Jag said:


> The conversation was diverted from my original topic (which happens) but people saying there's no reason to worry about some one poisoning your dog... maybe that's YOUR situation, but not mine.


I love the way that some people twist the words of others so that it fits into their own little world. I'm pretty sure that no one has said that _"there's no reason to worry about some one poisoning your dog..."_ It HAS been said that poison proofing is very difficult, time consuming, not highly reliable and that most threats of it happening are ill-perceived. The only way to prevent it 100%, is to prevent the dog from ever having contact with others and never allowing the dog outside. Even then, there are dangers in the home.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Jag said:


> One guy came up with treats and told Grim to 'sit' several times. This is one command that Grim knows and does well. Grim ignored his command. I told Grim to sit, and he did.


Unless somebody is holding a cookie over their head, my dogs don't sit for anybody, or do anything else they ask.

Now you are talking about poisoning. Well, that can be trained. My dogs would certainly eat a hamburger thown over the fence.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

What this thread needs is for someone who has actually trained poison proofing to step in and describe just what it entails. Preferably someone with real-life experience in the matter. By this, I don't mean that the dog has learned to refuse treats from strangers. I mean actual poison proofing taught by a professional, the real deal.

I expect to see a confrontation whenever the ecollar is mentioned by someone who's never used one, just as I expect it with any other tool. I've defended the prong collar in other threads, as well as the clicker, because I've used them. It would only be fair, if the person has no actual experience working with the tool to draw from.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

There ya go:
Leerburg | Poison Proofing Your Dog
Leerburg | Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Verniging


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> There ya go:
> Leerburg | Poison Proofing Your Dog
> Leerburg | Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Verniging


Thanks for the links.

I read them and decided not to waste my time.

Could you post some lightning refusal links.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Let me google that for you


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks for the links qbchottu. But I'm wondering what the success rate is? Are there some dogs that just won't be capable? Will the dog always equate the correction with the actual action of going for the food in general, or might it only avoid that particular food item it's offered? What if the dog is extremely food driven? These are just some of the questions that came to mind while I was reading them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

qbchottu said:


> There ya go:
> Leerburg | Poison Proofing Your Dog
> Leerburg | Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Verniging


I place little to no faith in anything that comes from Mr. Frawley. He's not a dog trainer, he's a breeder who makes and sell videos and related dog training gear. 

The first article is heavily flawed and anyone who follows it will find that their dog will still take food off the ground, I know people who have tried it. 

The second article is great for training the food refusal in the competition ring, but it doesn't transfer to real life. 

The best method is the one described in several of Bill Koehler's books. He uses a fence charger for the electric shock, an Ecollar does not give off enough current, you REALLY have to punish the behavior and an Ecollar comes nowhere near the current that's required. Koehler also said that you must leave pieces of food "on the wire" for the rest of the dog's life, to keep him reliable. And you have to keep moving the food and wire around frequently. I've done this and it works, but, as I've said, since a real threat is rarely real, usually it's more in people's heads than in reality, and it's very time consuming and must be done for the rest of the dog's life, it's not worth the trouble. Even the dogs that guard the POTUS are not trained for this.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Wasn't food refusal once part of the AKC UD? I read somewhere that they stopped requiring it because people were having trouble getting their dogs to eat when they weren't there.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Food refusal is kind of part of Rally Excellent...there is the option for having an off-set figure 8 with either treats or toys on the other sides in order to distract the dog. But in rally you can call them off as many times as you like...although I have witnessed a lab walk into the ring, get the leash off, and make a bee line right for the bowl of treats, which were in a plastic bag. Quite amazing that some dogs have absolutely no control over this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Training is never ending...whether for food 'leave it' or whatever...you start early on and keep up with the foundation you've set. I use many methods for training different exercises and certain ones are used for specific things. Training is a journey and it seems like everytime we get something right, another issue may crop up so we work thru.

If a dog knows not to take food from a drop when you train it under supervision, they should be hesitant to take it when free. But, food drive is usually the ultimate drive, so unsupervised, I'd never trust a dogs natural instinct to eat.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Training is never ending...whether for food 'leave it' or whatever...you start early on and keep up with the foundation you've set.
> 
> ... If a dog knows not to take food from a drop when you train it under supervision, they should be hesitant to take it when free. But, food drive is usually the ultimate drive, so unsupervised, I'd never trust a dogs natural instinct to eat.


There's a vast difference between maintenance training of, for example, OB and poison proofing. You can go on vacation for a couple of weeks and with several brush−ups, be back to where you were with the OB. But if you do this with poison proofing the dog could be dead. It requires DAILY attention at the highest level of shock, to maintain proficiency. If your dog lags a bit and you lose some points in the OB ring ... you lose a few points. If a dog's proficiency suffers JUST ONCE with poison proofing, he's dead. As you say, _"food is ... the ultimate drive."_ You are wise to _"never trust a dog's natural instinct to eat."_ There's nothing else like it in dog training. 

On another note, earlier I wrote,


> I think that the "ignore feature" is a coward's way out. Get some darn will power. If you don't want to read my posts then don't!


 Now I realize that I was too unconditional. Several people have told me in PM's about dealing with crazies that have started foul mouthing and harassing them in PM's. The ignore feature shuts them off and I have no issues with that. I've gotten people who have done that in Email, one kept switching his email address to get around my blocks, and I finally had to block his entire ISP. But if the only reason to use "ignore" is so that you don't have to read the post of someone who has a different opinion, then I'll go back to my original statement.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

one of my dogs is trained in french, the other in german. french pup is more housedog, just does whatever and puppy is ideally, going to turn out more serious. confuses the heck out of people.. really, my family uses the french commands but they have no idea about the germans. 

why is it important for our dogs to listen to anybody but ourselves, a significant other and the dog trainer? people don't command/treat properly. placement is a huge role. you can hold a treat and try to command my puppy, she immediately looks at me as if the treat is coming from me and she needs to be told what is being asked, by me. I never did anything special for this, other than not letting others handle her. she's only 5 months old. Of course I completely ENCOURAGE this behaviour. She will learn to take from others later in life, a year and a half or so, but for puppyhood.. I need her to think I'm the best friggin' thing ever, only good things come from me and everything to do with me is fun and good. just how I've chosen to build a really strong relationship with her. at the end of the day, I want everybody in her eyes to be crap if they aren't me. no fun at all, even if they have treats.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Food refusal is kind of part of Rally Excellent...there is the option for having an off-set figure 8 with either treats or toys on the other sides in order to distract the dog. But in rally you can call them off as many times as you like...although I have witnessed a lab walk into the ring, get the leash off, and make a bee line right for the bowl of treats, which were in a plastic bag. Quite amazing that some dogs have absolutely no control over this.


impulse control!!!!! I've never seen a lab with it..


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