# Cesar Millan's Website recommends laser pointers. Please email a protest



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I worry that so many people look to this site for information, and there it is, number 2!

Let's email and get this changed.

http://www.cesarsway.com/training/exercise/Ways-to-Exercise-Your-Dog-Indoors


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## meek (Feb 14, 2012)

I totally agree with you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And the "tug" advice...ugh..horrid!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought the same about both.


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## Bman0221 (May 3, 2010)

My dog could care less about a laser pointer. He just looks at it and lays there like
"yeah do you want me to do with that "


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

That is odd, because I would swear I'd watched an episode where he had to rehab a laser pointer obsessed dog  maybe marketing won that battle? Will email. 


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

I remember he was against it, said it on his show. I don't know who the author is, but it isn't Cesar who wrote the article.


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## dcg9381 (Oct 10, 2003)

I can see it in the context of "exercise", but I also see the danger.
It was written by Nicole Pajer, who is a "freelance writer and reporter".
You guys should email her... She's being paid to come up with content, which helps drive people to the site.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You can comment right on that link....the whole article is questionable and worth debating. I hate when people write such bs, and that people follow it.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I always picture our annoying drunk loud friend sitting there in all his beer gut glory going on and on about how myself and my fiance dont know a thing about stimulating our Border collies mind, while he is into half a bottle of jack and winging his laser around the yard for his 2 super spun collies because that is how you do it in his opinion. URGH


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

CelticGlory said:


> I remember he was against it, said it on his show. I don't know who the author is, but it isn't Cesar who wrote the article.


But people will think if it's on his website, he approves of it and recommends it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That's true. I didn't look for the author, I thought it was his site that I was directed to in the link in this thread. It never occured to me that it wasn't his article or at least endorsed by him.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

JackandMattie said:


> That is odd, because I would swear I'd watched an episode where he had to rehab a laser pointer obsessed dog  maybe marketing won that battle? Will email.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes! I saw that episode & he really discouraged the use of one.

laser pointer + dog = disaster


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Hey maybe people will think of a really grand idea.. Laser pointer on the stairs, because thats the best combination for disaster..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How about a laser tug. 

It has to be about as good as the hand puppet dog toy. 

I mean, they have designed retractable leashes, with radio, flashlight, and pooper scooper bags, so you can go out walking the dog, after dark, listening to your tunes, and cleaning up the poop all at the same time. 

I have one of these. LOL. What people won't buy dog lovers for Christmas!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

OCD is OCD, it is genetic and not dependent on what you use to play with the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Packen said:


> OCD is OCD, it is genetic and not dependent on what you use to play with the dog.


Bloat maybe genetic too. But there are things you can do to make it less or more likely to occur.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

selzer said:


> Bloat maybe genetic too. But there are things you can do to make it less or more likely to occur.


Nope, just opinions.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alcoholism is genetic, but if you don't imbibe, you won't screw up your life with it.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

selzer said:


> Alcoholism is genetic, but if you don't imbibe, you won't screw up your life with it.


First time for everything lol, genetic alcoholic dogs! you learn something new everyday.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, genetic, alchoholic, dogs with laser tug toys.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Nope, just excuses from people who don't care to learn.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Learn what, exactly?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Well, let me list a couple of items being discussed here,

1. Laser pointers or any specific toy do not make a do go nuts. If dog is not wired correctly he will go nuts regardless.
2. Playing tug successfully has a couple of pre-requisites that need to be trained first.

If 1 and 2 are learned then the article all of a sudden begins to makes sense


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Packen said:


> Well, let me list a couple of items being discussed here,
> 
> 1. Laser pointers or any specific toy do not make a do go nuts. If dog is not wired correctly he will go nuts regardless.
> 2. Playing tug successfully has a couple of pre-requisites that need to be trained first.
> ...


Most of the trainers I have dealt with have made some mention of staying away from laser pointers. From this thread, Cesar has mentioned it in one of his episodes. So he obviously isn't a fan of them either, so why he has an article on his website encouraging their use, I don't know.

As for tug toys. I have heard so much negative and positive of tugging, I just don't. I hear it builds drive, and I am not crazy about increasing drives. We used to tug all the time with my grandmother's dachund, used to lift him up with his slipper. He never gave up. Never was a problem though, expect when he would continually push that soggy slipper at you long after you were done playing. I guess I was never interested in having a GSD pushing a soggy slipper at me, so I don't bother with tug. And every other day it changes, whether or not you win, or let them win, or determine who gets to start the game, and when it ends, and all the rest of it.


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## Sasha86 (Sep 8, 2012)

My dog has developed an acute phase of shadow chasing
I asked my trainer about a laser pointer and she strictly said no. Laser pointers are for cats, if you want your dog to develop a severe OCD that will help it.
Just sharing my info


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Ok maybe I'm an idiot, but how can a laser pointer cause ocd?

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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The laser pointer switches on OCD in dogs - _as far as we know right now_ - that are "susceptible" to it. However, how does the average pet owner know that your dog won't be one that will have these obsessive behaviors? 

Better not to take the risk is what people are saying. Plus it's a stupid, pointless game for a dog, similar to the fake ball toss - hurr durr - look at mah dawg tryin ta git somethin that ain't thurr. 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/06/130610-ocd-dogs-health-animals-science-brains/

Dog Compulsive Behavior ? Spinning, Tail Chasing, Pacing more Types, Symptoms and Treatments

http://drsophiayin.com/docs/SpinOutBarkFeb08.pdf

Ask the Animal Behaviorist : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

Tufts Animal Behavior Research Studies : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

You can also do google search of spinning, chasing light, flank sucking, other behavior and this forum and see a lot of posts about it.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Sasha86 said:


> My dog has developed an acute phase of shadow chasing
> I asked my trainer about a laser pointer and she strictly said no. Laser pointers are for cats, if you want your dog to develop a severe OCD that will help it.
> Just sharing my info
> 
> ...


Its bad for cats too, I just don't see the point of using a laser.This is a very interesting article from 2011, but has ways to help animals with OCD: Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in Dogs and Cats!.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I have a dog who is OCD over a laser pointer, not a fun life. Not me, ex-husband played with him with it. Now everything is fair game, power outage, need a flash light, he goes nuts, dog with a bad back twisting and turning to get the light - absolute disaster, dog has to be locked in the house when we have fires, when dh pulls out his trouble light to work on something in the shop. They should be outlawed, or I should have been better educated and aware of what my ex was doing with Oz. 5 years later and I still have issues.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Back a long time ago when we had the goldens, they did play with laser pointers. We originally used them with the cats and the dogs eventually got into it. We never had a single issue with OCD. I could turn a flashlight on, the TV could be on with no lights, etc. Everyone was stable enough to understand the difference and also when it was play time and when it was not. 

I don't do this with my GSDs, and I never allow a laser pointer in this house. However, I don't think the laser pointer *creates* OCD. I believe it just brings it out in dogs (and cats) that are already OCD or genetically wired wrong.

With that being said, I don't think the average Joe and Jane can easily figure out if their dog/cat is or is not capable of OCD behavior. Most average pet owners don't even know what OCD looks like in an animal. So I do agree that it should not be advertised or even mentioned to the public as a possible toy or as a form of exercise. Not to mention, people don't usually think clearly and end up doing stupid things. If it's not used safely the dog can get injured or something can break and costly repairs may be needed, or both. 

I can't understand why this would be on his page, he's definitely been highly against it in the past. Wonder what changed on that or how it got slipped onto his page without his consent.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whether it creates the OCD in some dogs, or brings it out in dogs that are prone to it, it seems like there is enough evidence that it is a dangerous thing. 

He should remove that from his site, or at least type an disclaimer about the use of laser pointers so that people like me, who are pretty happy to point out anything he does wrong, will not see his mug on the top of a site and that in the contact and assume he is more of a nut than we already think he is. OR that people who do like him, and go up to bat for him on everything, will see that and start encouraging the use of lasers because of it.

But, it is the holidays, he may be pretty sick of all that he does for dogs, or rather the humans that are constantly messing up dogs, and isn't checking it out too closely.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

If your family has a history of alcoholism, it's easy enough to chose not to imbibe. But we are taking about dogs. A lot of this people in this forum have pedigreed and proven dogs, but not all of us owners have that. Why take the risk with a laser pointer. It just seems like a silly decision. I mean, my dog might develop OCD or might not.... Let me roll the dice and not accept responsibility 

Aaargh. 


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Yeah you'd really think someone like Cesar would have a better editor, at least someone who knows about brand consistency...


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## Ava_Shepsky (Aug 29, 2013)

Did someone say outlaw laser pointers because SOME dogs can develop OCD ? 
Are we gonna outlaw light switches because of those people with OCD who turn on and off their lights 20 billion times a day? 
Or maybe we should outlaw all cars now because of motor vehicle accidents? 
Seems to me this is a big discussion over nothing. If you don't like what he has to say and you feel you know better than to use that advice then ignore that advice! It's simple. 
If someone who is not educated enough on the subject uses a laser pointer and messes their dog up, guess what - that's their problem that they now have to fix and hopefully they learn to do more research and look at more than just one source for information. 
We spend too much time making every piece of information online idiot-proof already! 
Everyone emailing is wasting their time imo. It's an old article not even written by Cesar. The man's running a business. You can't blame him for hiring ppl to put out new material on his site. I'm sure not everyone under him knows as much as he does about dogs. (And I'm sure laser pointers aren't "dangerous" in every single scenario. The way people are reacting to this you'd think the darn things spontaneously combust on contact with dog fur. ) You gotta make your paper some how. And the man does good work. Helps many people with their dogs. And as stated earlier on this thread, doesn't necessarily support the use of laser pointers. 
Why not email someone more important on a matter that's more pressing? There are far more serious issues in the world that could use our time and efforts and people in actual power who could use our annoying emails about things that MATTER
But I mean, if you /really/ feel that strongly about laser pointers being briefly mentioned in an article- discard my advice ! It's simple guys


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

We have a laser pointer, we take it out for a few minutes sometimes to let Eko chase it. We just run it along the floor a couple times and he chases it, then we usually put it away and play a different game, like fetch. He likes it, no issues or OCD. My APBT, Xena, has epilepsy so I don't take it out around her.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ava_Shepsky said:


> Did someone say outlaw laser pointers because SOME dogs can develop OCD ?
> Are we gonna outlaw light switches because of those people with OCD who turn on and off their lights 20 billion times a day?
> Or maybe we should outlaw all cars now because of motor vehicle accidents?
> Seems to me this is a big discussion over nothing.


Then feel free to ignore this discussion. 
No one said anything about outlawing. 

It is an article written by someone else that appears on his website, making many people believe he approves of this. The owner is ultimately responsible for anything posted. 

If something slipped through the cracks that was not recommended and that business were mine, you bet I would want to know!


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## 3dognite (May 28, 2003)

Our Brittany does fine with laser pointers...but my old GSD did NOT. He had pretty serious OCD though....and I won't introduce a laser with the baby.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How do we know that all the dogs affected actually have OCD? Is it possible that some dogs will just want to chase everything, and beams of light are one of them? When I brought my puppy home (in the dead of winter) we were using a flashlight for potty breaks. I didn't know any better, and was letting him chase the beam - it was a great way to lead him back into the house. Except, I didn't like the obsessive energy he put into it, so I stopped. He also started to pounce on reflections from a suncatcher, so I had to redirect him from that. I guess I was training OCD behavior? He's 'normal' now, since I discontinued the light games pretty early on. Can you "create" OCD, or are you just reinforcing really bad habits?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Once had an Aussie pup and I started with a laser. Then she expected it to show up at any given time and was looking for it often. That is because it is silent and just shows up so the dog never knows when to expect it. I saw OCD in capital letters written all over her.Then I started with a command so she learned to only look after I announced "LASER!" and also stopped the game with "DONE!" and put it away as she saw me doing it. I think this can prevent the OCD component .
Some dogs, the fetch-nuts, act similar when there are balls lying around the house; constantly biting and carrying them.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Packen said:


> Well, let me list a couple of items being discussed here,
> 
> 1. Laser pointers or any specific toy do not make a do go nuts. If dog is not wired correctly he will go nuts regardless.
> 2. Playing tug successfully has a couple of pre-requisites that need to be trained first.
> ...


 I'm with you on this subject. We frequently did laser at night in a field during the winter months when it got dark early. No OCD in our dog, no withdrawals during the sunnier evenings or when we had to stop short to heal from surgery. I think the idea behind the article of creative ways to exercise your dog inside is fine. We even got an kids indoor tunnel for our dog to run through.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Gretchen said:


> I'm with you on this subject. We frequently did laser at night in a field during the winter months when it got dark early. No OCD in our dog, no withdrawals during the sunnier evenings or when we had to stop short to heal from surgery. I think the idea behind the article of creative ways to exercise your dog inside is fine..


So based on your one experience, you think it's fine to recommend this to the entire internet? 
What would you say to those who have had to deal with a dog who forever chased the illusive shiny object?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ava_Shepsky said:


> Did someone say outlaw laser pointers because SOME dogs can develop OCD ?
> Are we gonna outlaw light switches because of those people with OCD who turn on and off their lights 20 billion times a day?
> Or maybe we should outlaw all cars now because of motor vehicle accidents?
> Seems to me this is a big discussion over nothing. If you don't like what he has to say and you feel you know better than to use that advice then ignore that advice! It's simple.
> ...


And this is why I finally went back and voted on the Cesar poll. I don't really hate him, no. But I absolutely hate the fact that people think that he walks on water. Of course you want to know if someone put something potentially dangerous on your website. People will think that you believe that stuff. People might do it, because Cesar doesn't just have followers, he also has fanatics. 

I mean really, anybody else save maybe a president, and you can disagree with something that they say or do without it being a personal attack that his followers must violently oppose. Even if it is something the dude himself has talked of the dangers of, well its on his site, you all should just go find someone better to pick on because this man is a hero. He helps dogs. He helps dog owners. He is wonderful. He is always right, even when he is wrong, and says he is wrong, he is right. 

I have never had a problem with a laser pointer. But I have never messed with the dogs with one either. But I have read enough accounts of others to know that there is a pretty good chance that there is something to it. CM is probably happy that people are checking it out, and flagging it, so he can get it off of there.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Way back I had gone to a trainer who adopted (or fostered, can't remember) two Rotties who spent most of their time indoors with a drug addict stripper who used a laser pointer to entertain her dogs. Both dogs had OCD. The one was housed at diff. location, the one at the trainers would pounce on shadows...he would put both his paws together and just pound and pound the ground. Very sad. 

Not sure if read on here or elsewhere, but dog going through window to get headlights of car pulling in driveway.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

CelticGlory said:


> I remember he was against it, said it on his show. I don't know who the author is, but it isn't Cesar who wrote the article.


That is true. On a couple episodes Cesar says NOT to use laser pointers because of OCD behavior. I very much doubt he writes much or any of his website content. He probably has people doing it all for him and obviously some of them don't watch his shows 


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## Ava_Shepsky (Aug 29, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Then feel free to ignore this discussion.
> No one said anything about outlawing.
> 
> It is an article written by someone else that appears on his website, making many people believe he approves of this. The owner is ultimately responsible for anything posted.
> ...



Pretty much why I ignore a lot of posts on here. To me -my opinion- which I am allowed to express just like you- It seems like a big deal over nothing. But like I stated earlier you can discard my opinion.


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## Ava_Shepsky (Aug 29, 2013)

selzer said:


> And this is why I finally went back and voted on the Cesar poll. I don't really hate him, no. But I absolutely hate the fact that people think that he walks on water. Of course you want to know if someone put something potentially dangerous on your website. People will think that you believe that stuff. People might do it, because Cesar doesn't just have followers, he also has fanatics.
> 
> I mean really, anybody else save maybe a president, and you can disagree with something that they say or do without it being a personal attack that his followers must violently oppose. Even if it is something the dude himself has talked of the dangers of, well its on his site, you all should just go find someone better to pick on because this man is a hero. He helps dogs. He helps dog owners. He is wonderful. He is always right, even when he is wrong, and says he is wrong, he is right.
> 
> I have never had a problem with a laser pointer. But I have never messed with the dogs with one either. But I have read enough accounts of others to know that there is a pretty good chance that there is something to it. CM is probably happy that people are checking it out, and flagging it, so he can get it off of there.



LOL I am not a Cesar fanatic. Just admitting he does good work. Never said he wasn't wrong either. Just saying it shouldn't be such a big deal imo for people who are smart enough to look to many different places for info (hopefully that includes all of us here- or anyone with access to the internet)
There are many different factors that would contribute to a dog becoming OCD over a laser pointer. It wouldn't happen soley because there is an article suggesting it online. You'd have to do a few things wrong and prob have a messed up dog to begin with genetically. 
People always look for someone to blame. "My dog is addicted to the laser pointer! Cesar said it on his site ! It's Cesar's fault!" Instead of taking responsibility. That's what I was trying to say.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ava_Shepsky said:


> LOL I am not a Cesar fanatic. Just admitting he does good work. Never said he wasn't wrong either. Just saying it shouldn't be such a big deal imo for people who are smart enough to look to many different places for info (hopefully that includes all of us here- or anyone with access to the internet)
> There are many different factors that would contribute to a dog becoming OCD over a laser pointer. It wouldn't happen soley because there is an article suggesting it online. You'd have to do a few things wrong and prob have a messed up dog to begin with genetically.
> People always look for someone to blame. "My dog is addicted to the laser pointer! Cesar said it on his site ! It's Cesar's fault!" Instead of taking responsibility. That's what I was trying to say.


People who have no idea their dog is OCD, it's bloody cold, they are on the internet looking at dog stuff, and find this article about exercising in foul weather. Great! I got one of those, let's try it. 

Dog's OCD comes out right away. It's done. The dog is now chasing shadows, and lights, can't go by a stainless steel bucket without freaking. Never happened before. 

If there is something that dangerous on my website, I would want to know it was there, so I could get it off of there. 

Someone who has never heard of the dangers of using laser pointers would never think a second thing of it. People who have not known someone who's kid was killed with a baloon would never think another thing of it. If you do know someone who's kid was killed by a baloon, you tend to want to tell people when you see someone letting their dog play with baloons until they pop. I mean, with a kid falling on the baloon so it pops and goes down the throat, it is a pretty freak accident. But dogs do everything with their mouth and their pointy teeth. Of course they are going to pop a baloon in their mouth. 

It's the same deal, really. People do not know the dangers of these things. People tend to believe what is written on a famous dog-person's site.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx played with a laser pointer once. My son had one and he was amused at Onyx's interest in it, so played with her. I came home and saw what was happening and put a stop to it. For several days after that, Onyx kept digging at the carpet where that laser was pointed and I knew better than to ever let her be subjected to one again. 
To downplay the seriousness of OCD is irresponsible. Some dogs could care less, for others it is a big deal. I'd rather not use such a thing to amuse myself or my dogs.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

selzer said:


> People who have not known someone who's kid was killed with a baloon would never think another thing of it. If you do know someone who's kid was killed by a baloon, you tend to want to tell people when you see someone letting their dog play with baloons until they pop. I mean, with a kid falling on the baloon so it pops and goes down the throat, it is a pretty freak accident. But dogs do everything with their mouth and their pointy teeth. Of course they are going to pop a baloon in their mouth.
> 
> It's the same deal, really. People do not know the dangers of these things. People tend to believe what is written on a famous dog-person's site.


No it is BS. An accident is an accident, a dog suffering from OCD is a disease, not all dogs have it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Packen said:


> No it is BS. An accident is an accident, a dog suffering from OCD is a disease, not all dogs have it.


BS is against the rules here. 

A dog might have OCD and never suffer from it. Or may not suffer as much as they will if people screw around with laser pointers. 

I don't understand why people are being so anal about it. If it was anyone else's website, it would be like, "ok, yeah, they should get that off of there." But because it is Cesar's website, people are arguing and fighting about it. 

Not every collie has a mutant MDR+ gene. Should we not encourage people to get their dog tested before giving them ivermectin?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

selzer said:


> BS is against the rules here.


Exactly what I am trying to point out here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Packen said:


> Exactly what I am trying to point out here.


You can point stuff out without swearing, even in acronyms, it's against the rules. 

The substance itself is perfectly legal and welcomed here. It's just naming it that is not allowed.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if you ever had a dog
with an ocd you'd understand why
so many people are against the laser pointer play

even huffpo feature an article

Laser Dogs: Why Laser Beams Make Canines Crazy

it is not so difficult to recommend
an actual toy such as a ball to throw for a dog
people can't be that lazy!!????


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Karen Pryor calls out using a laser pointer, what does she know 
Target Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

People need to realize that OCD is a disease, laser pointers DO NOT cause OCD. Dogs that do not have OCD will NOT be ruined if you decide to use a laser pointer. Key is to know your dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Packen said:


> Karen Pryor calls out using a laser pointer, what does she know
> Target Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
> 
> People need to realize that OCD is a disease, laser pointers DO NOT cause OCD. Dogs that do not have OCD will NOT be ruined if you decide to use a laser pointer. Key is to know your dog.


Never heard of her. Course I am not a fan of clickers or gadgets. Dogs that do not show OCD behaviors can have it come out after laser pointers are used with them. I agree it is a disease. I am NOT arguing that laser pointers cause it. I am arguing that you can make things a lot worse for your dog if it happens your dog does have the problem. 

But I really don't have a dog in this fight. Knock yourself out.


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