# 7 month old getting aggresive



## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

Hi my 7 month old puppy barks like crazy at strangers. He barks at everyone now whoever comes to our place which is strange because about a month back he was a really friendly guy and never used to bark at anyone. He is scared of other dogs though. My neighbour's dogs bark at him and he starts whining.( When i take him out for a walk then he ignores strangers.) 
How do i control him? Or at least tell him when the strangers are friends? 
PS he is my first dog. Dont really know much about dog behaviour. Please suggest a good book too


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Good intro book is 'Cesars way' by Cesar Millan

Research Micheal Ellis on line. He has dvds and books on his site.

Check Tyler Muto on leash work and dogmanship. Very easy to follow steps to calm an unruly dog through good leash control.
Tyler Muto - YouTube

Bart Bellon, Something to aspire to


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

Thankyou so much  


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A good portion of that reactivity is probably coming from fear. To work on the core issue you likely want to get back to socializing him. The Ellis fear period in young dogs video on youtube is a good place to start for that. You can probably have him ignoring people inside of a week or two. It is kind of a strange thing. Dogs fear response or uneasiness can take place in certain places but not others. You already saw this when you take him for a walk and you don't see the reactivity, but take him to other places and it pops out. It is one of those things that has to be generalized. Some of it is expectation based some of it isn't. For example when I walk my pup in the woods he doesn't expect to run into anybody out there because we usually don't but when it happens hes more likely to react cautiously and with suspicion. Take him into a petsmart where there are always a ton of people and dogs and he is fine with it.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It may not be fear but uncertainty. Also the guests may be interacting inappropriately with the dog. And the owner isn't showing the dog or the guests how to act. For me it is better for a dog like this to respect people rather than socialize with them. If the people respect the nature of the dog then it is much easier for the dog to relax in their company.

I'd start with a place command like 'into bed' for the dog. When people arrive the dog must stay in one place instead of roaming around and barking. You simply train this when there is no one around and then use it when you have a guest. That becomes the dogs place and if it comes out of the place it is on your terms not the dogs. To keep the dog there you use a 'tssh' verbal correction and body language. 

Ask the guests to not interact with the dog at all. Like no staring at it, no talking to it and no attempt at rubbing it even if the dog is coming to them to get a scent. An owner must engage with visitors and explain them the rules to take the pressure of the dog. Usually people come to see the new dog and stare at it or be like hey boy encouraging it to come to them. Better if they play it cool and let the dog approach them first.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would start by having him leashed and sitting when people come over. I would say have them give him a treat, but my own dogs don't take treats from strangers and I prefer that, but family is different.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

There is no point in a person giving a dog a treat if the dog is unsure or nervous of there presence. It can nurture fear and mistrust. 

Better for the person to have a treat and simply let the dog know through scent while still maintaining an aloof body language. Like staring into the pups eyes and saying 'here boy' is counter productive, but ignoring a pup and holding some treat in ones closed hand is encouraging the pup to investigate the person by scent. 

It comes down to how well people can read the pup or dogs body language. If a pup is leaning into a person with it's tail doing a fast flicking motion it is unsure and ready to back away if the person makes a noise or a movement. But if it was comfortable it would be actively trying to get the treat in the hand or sitting or trying some behavior to get the treat. It would be best imo if the person with holds the treat until total acceptance is achieved.

If people can't read the body language then it is simply better to ignore the pup or dog and stop trying to achieve something. Rather let the pup be comfortable and it will then relax in peoples company.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't think you can nurture fear or mistrust with food treating and if that was the case guys like Michael Ellis wouldn't be machine gunning treats down their dogs faces around things that weird the puppy out during the socialization stage. The dog is being given treats at a quick rate and it is being encouraged to ignore the stimulus and focus on the food. You are encouraging focus of attention shifting from the stimulus and in a way this isn't that different from when Cesar leash pops a dog for fixating on a stimulus. If the dog was fearful the dog wouldn't take the treat and you'd have to go to threshold then try to work your way closer. If the dog was fixated the dog wouldn't take the treat and you'd have to go to threshold and work your way closer.

I do believe you can nurture fear or mistrust through petting or affection in certain scenarios. I've seen it before. Someone will take a dog punish it physically because it did something they didn't like, and when it cowers they immediately change gears and are like OH! ITS OK! YOURE SUCH A SWEET BOY! That's how you make a dog insane.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I don't think you can nurture fear or mistrust with food treating


Have you ever seen a pup taking a treat and retreating away again? That is nurturing fear. 

Or someone offering a treat and the dog edging in nervously and then when the pup is gonna get the treat the persons says good boy and tries to rub the pup on it's head. Again the pup will retreat. That is nurturing mistrust.

So much easier and respectful for the pup to meet it a few times allowing the pup to trust the person before introducing any kind of reward system.

Pros using food to redirect focus from environmental stress is very different than a pup mistrusting people and being asked to take a treat from them when they may have zero experience and knowledge of dog behavior.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Does that make sense Madlab? The two methods are going towards the same end goal its just they differ in the sense that they work in two different quadrants of operant conditioning. I prefer the positive side of things because it creates positive associations and doesn't add additional stress to the dog and therefore has a lower probability of backfiring.

Even Cesar has started to embrace that more and more. I've seen an episode where he was feeding a dog treats around a motorcycle to stop the dog from biting the crap out of it every time it was turned on.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You are misinterpreting what you are seeing, and if that was what was happening the method wasn't being used correctly anyway. You are seeing a dog that is way past threshold venturing out to quickly take a reward and then making an effort to go back out to threshhold. You don't want to let the dog practice that if you can avoid it and it is a sign the person doing it was rushing the process. You would go to threshhold feed feed feed and bring them in slower than that then back out again before they bolted, and then back in again. You're not seeing a dog who's fear is being nurtured you're just seeing a person who is pushing things too quickly. Could that damage the dog mentally? Yeah if the fear was bad enough and you were flooding it like that sure, but I would argue that since the dog was eating he wasn't that far gone, and that same dog could easily be taught the stimulus was harmless very quickly if the exercise was done correctly.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I added a bit to my post and you are confusing the issue imo.


Baillif


> I don't think you can nurture fear or mistrust with food treating


Madlab


> Have you ever seen a pup taking a treat and retreating away again? That is nurturing fear.
> 
> Or someone offering a treat and the dog edging in nervously and then when the pup is gonna get the treat the persons says good boy and tries to rub the pup on it's head. Again the pup will retreat. That is nurturing mistrust.


Baillif


> You are seeing a dog that is way past threshold venturing out to quickly take a reward and then making an effort to go back out to threshhold. You don't want to let the dog practice that if you can avoid it and it is a sign the person doing it was rushing the process.


That is my point. Unexperienced handlers do not have this foresight and knowledge
.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this "He barks at everyone now whoever comes to our place which is strange because about a month back he was a really friendly guy and never used to bark at anyone"

is a very general statement. 
what is the evidence that it is fear?
complete the picture .

it may be a friendly dog , who is now hyper active in anticipation of interaction with those strangers coming into the home. Solved, then , by good basic obedience - less free wheeling around the house. Have other behaviours changed ? dog taking risks checking to see where the lines are?

He may be pushing to see those people and then mug them . 
This "When i take him out for a walk then he ignores strangers." makes me think it is not fear.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I do agree that you shouldn't ask strangers to give your dogs treats but for slightly different reasons. I don't want my dogs seeing strangers as treat machines as that can easily back fire. If I want the dog focused on me and hes been conditioned to see strangers as affection/treat dispensing machines then he will want to go harass them till one of the two is handed out. I want him focused on me not the strangers. Michael told stories about a dog they trained to do that that would get annoyed when a treat wasn't given out and would bite out of annoyance in the same way that someone would kick a coke machine for taking their change.

Again I don't think the food treating itself could cause the mistrust. In the case scenario we are talking about the thing creating the mistrust and fear is the fact the dog was afraid of it in the first place and was being overloaded.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> this "He barks at everyone now whoever comes to our place which is strange because about a month back he was a really friendly guy and never used to bark at anyone"
> 
> is a very general statement.
> what is the evidence that it is fear?
> ...


That is certainly possible but he mentioned earlier in the post there's fear with barking dogs and the puppy is at about that age they start acting weird from the second fear period. Supplicating behaviors shown from fear and insecurity earlier in the puppies life start to transform over to reactivity and more aggressive looking responses as the puppy reaches about that age. But yes I will concede I was making an assumption based on what I was given. The OP can give us more info though and hopefully comes back to do so.

Madlab am I confusing the issue or are you just confused? What are you finding confusing?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Baillif you make some very good points .
you said "Supplicating behaviors shown from fear and insecurity earlier in the puppies life start to transform over to reactivity " which is a very likely cause for the dogs excited / emotionally charged response to other dogs , because he may have had a negative history which needs to be sorted out .
That is not the case with people though , since he was always a friendly dog and shows no avoidance or fear aggressive behaviour , being neutral to strangers away from the inside of his house.
Chances are visitors / friends who came to see the puppy, play with the puppy , have in your good word "overloaded" him. 
I think this "Michael told stories about a dog they trained to do that that would get annoyed when a treat wasn't given out and would bite out of annoyance in the same way that someone would kick a coke machine for taking their change" is exactly what has happened. Dog is now bigger , anticipates interaction from guests , gets himself all wound up, guests don't respond quick enough may nip to discharge some of that energy .(we don't have a clue what the dog is doing outside of barking though) .

You see the same thing with a dog that has good ball play and gets satisfaction from playing and will leap in the air , push handler , bark at handler, graze hand for ball if not thrown fast enough. 

Dog is pushing for what he wants. 
Frustrated person at coke machine vents and pushes for what he wants - 

not necessarily fear --


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Could be completely right about that, but the same technique used for fear is also used for the anticipation of guest interaction and wanting to pull towards that, so regardless of the source of the symptoms they are basically the same and the prescription is the same. Granted you could use negative reinforcement to stop it with much less probability of it backfiring if that was the case. The great thing about that technique is you are encouraging the dogs engagement with yourself despite distraction regardless of whether that distraction is seen as positive or negative by the dog.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Mad lab


> you (Baillif) are confusing the issue imo.


You should simply quote someone when dealing with a specific point. I'm not confused but wonder what is the relevance to the op's issue and though you were confusing the issue rather than simply giving your opinion on how to deal with it. Imo it's hard to see what advice you gave the op in this thread but it is interesting listening to your opinions on dog training terms



> You are seeing a dog that is way past threshold venturing out to quickly take a reward and then making an effort to go back out to threshhold.


Complicated way to say the dog or pup is not comfortable with the person. So back to square one how to make the dog comfortable around people. I repeat treats are not the way until the dog is comfortable and showing some confidence. Simple point.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I referred him to an Ellis video that is very relevant. So my opinion on how to deal with it is stated there. The video does a very good job explaining it.



MadLab said:


> There is no point in a person giving a dog a treat if the dog is unsure or nervous of there presence. It can nurture fear and mistrust.





MadLab said:


> \ I repeat treats are not the way until the dog is comfortable and showing some confidence. Simple point.


Our debate is because I take issue with these two statements.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> So my opinion on how to deal with it is stated there. The video does a very good job explaining it.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadLab*
> ...


Your entitled to your opinion. But some day you may see for your self someone giving treats with really poor timing and then you will realize that person should not do it. 

Someone like Micheal Ellis who you mentioned will have great timing and judgement.


> I don't think you can nurture fear or mistrust with food treating and if that was the case guys like Michael Ellis wouldn't be machine gunning treats down their dogs faces around things that weird the puppy out during the socialization stage


Question is, *would he ask all visitors to his house to dish out threats for his pup.* Just because he does it doesn't mean everybody should do it. I think he would be very careful about who he allows contact with his young pups. I don't think he would expose a pup to the scenario like the ops in the first place and all exercises for the pup would be purely positive until it grew up more. *Do you think trainers like M Ellis carefully control the environment for their pups?*



> I referred him to an Ellis video tha t is very relevant.


Can you post the video clips for the op's benefit.


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

MadLab said:


> It may not be fear but uncertainty. Also the guests may be interacting inappropriately with the dog. And the owner isn't showing the dog or the guests how to act. For me it is better for a dog like this to respect people rather than socialize with them. If the people respect the nature of the dog then it is much easier for the dog to relax in their company.
> 
> I'd start with a place command like 'into bed' for the dog. When people arrive the dog must stay in one place instead of roaming around and barking. You simply train this when there is no one around and then use it when you have a guest. That becomes the dogs place and if it comes out of the place it is on your terms not the dogs. To keep the dog there you use a 'tssh' verbal correction and body language.
> 
> Ask the guests to not interact with the dog at all. Like no staring at it, no talking to it and no attempt at rubbing it even if the dog is coming to them to get a scent. An owner must engage with visitors and explain them the rules to take the pressure of the dog. Usually people come to see the new dog and stare at it or be like hey boy encouraging it to come to them. Better if they play it cool and let the dog approach them first.


I have tried to tell my guests to relax when he barks. He comes at them like crazy and even pulls me. So they get more scared and start acting all worked up. I think that is the reason he gets more hyper. 
Is it true that dogs try to dominate those people from whom they can sense fear? 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are three parts to this video this is part one, the other two are there in the menu when you look for them on youtube.

Bad timing and bad judgement and an aversive at the wrong time is far more likely with the Cesar style leash pop or herky jerky method. It requires far more skill and knowledge about a dog and their signals they give off than the positive method.

You are confused. Michael would not ask visitors to dish out treats to his pups. I said I do not like the idea of asking strangers to give treats to your dog as it is a bad idea. Michael also in those videos says he doesn't like that idea and tells a story as to why, a story I already summarized earlier. The handler should be the only one dolling out the goodies. To answer your last question yes trainers like Ellis do control the environment of the pups. To the more sensitive ones you would want the strangers you work the dog around to ignore the pup at first.

Ambica watch the video you will see an explanation for that exact question.


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Baillif you make some very good points .
> you said "Supplicating behaviors shown from fear and insecurity earlier in the puppies life start to transform over to reactivity " which is a very likely cause for the dogs excited / emotionally charged response to other dogs , because he may have had a negative history which needs to be sorted out .
> That is not the case with people though , since he was always a friendly dog and shows no avoidance or fear aggressive behaviour , being neutral to strangers away from the inside of his house.
> Chances are visitors / friends who came to see the puppy, play with the puppy , have in your good word "overloaded" him.
> ...


I think you are right. Apart from barking he just tries to pull me (when im holding the leash) towards that person. But like i said..this makes my guest uncomfortable. He thinks my dog is charging towards him to bite him or something. I tell them to relax but they get really scared. 


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Your entitled to your opinion. But some day you may see for your self someone giving treats with really poor timing and then you will realize that person should not do it.
> 
> Someone like Micheal Ellis who you mentioned will have great timing and judgement. Question is, *would he ask all visitors to his house to dish out threats for his pup.* Just because he does it doesn't mean everybody should do it. I think he would be very careful about who he allows contact with his young pups. I don't think he would expose a pup to the scenario like the ops in the first place and all exercises for the pup would be purely positive until it grew up more. *Do you think trainers like M Ellis carefully control the environment for their pups?*
> 
> Can you post the video clips for the op's benefit.


I just want to add that i tried this method of giving treats. I dont want to use it in the future though because i dont like everyone treating my dog. Anyway, my brother visited me and my dog behaved in the same way. So i told my brother to throw him a biscuit. He did and my dog ate it. Then completely ignored my brother for sometime. He sat in his bed and started doing his own thing. After a while he got up and went upto my brother. He licked his sock, tried to bite it. My brother was uncomfortable so I told pheo to go to his bed and he did. After sometime he got up again and went upto my brother licked his hand and tried to bite it. I dont know what this means. Was he trying to be playful? Or was asking for more treats? 


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

then it is bad manners, need of training , obedience, parameters in house . Down on a mat ? not free access to door , interact with guests when invited. Only. Focus exercises with dog focusing on you no matter what the distraction . When guests expected dog is put away . Guests come in , dog is aware of their presence . Guests settle in . Dog is allowed out put on a mat , without interaction with guests, down stay , until you see total calm from the dog. Then to proof focus and control by you, do a recall to you , if dog moves towards guests , dog gets redirected to you . Put back on mat , until response correct . Then YOU take him over to guests who will be neutral to dog . Nothing exciting , dog learns new way of welcoming your guests.

to the above OP post -- too much interaction , dog expects something from guests


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

behaviours become ingrained when there is productive positive reason "reward"

the dog who pesters to a compulsive level .

person finally has a moment to sit down , have refreshment , read paper. dog comes and starts to paw person or nudge arm with his muzzle . person starts stroking the dog without thinking . dog is rewarded .dog keeps on doing it . anytime, everywhere . becomes a vicious circle. person gets annoyed with arm being shoved, newspaper being pushed , cup a something spilled . gets short with dog , who becomes anxious when something formerly rewarding works against him . continues and continues , escalates .


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> So i told my brother to throw him a biscuit. He did and my dog ate it. Then completely ignored my brother for sometime. ... After a while he got up and went up to my brother. He licked his sock, tried to bite it. My brother was uncomfortable so I told pheo to go to his bed and he did. ....
> After sometime he got up again and went upto my brother licked his hand and tried to bite it. I dont know what this means. Was he trying to be playful? Or was asking for more treats?


Sometimes a pup 'flea bites' out of affection. The pup is also at the land shark phaze so may want to bite and chew on many things. If you verbally correct and send into bed then that is cool. Learn how to follow through and switch the dog into a calm state. Also research redirecting the dogs energy. When a pup or dog has a problem with some one you can go for a walk together and the pup will accept the person more. Obviously leash control is essential. 



> Apart from barking he just tries to pull me (when im holding the leash) towards that person.


The Tyler Muto vids are essential in dealing with this lunging. It is important to cure this as the dog will get more aggressive if pulling on a leash due to opposition reflex. Basically if you hold it back it will want to project forward more. It is also really intimidating for any body on the wrong end of this aggression.


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

carmspack said:


> behaviours become ingrained when there is productive positive reason "reward"
> 
> the dog who pesters to a compulsive level .
> 
> person finally has a moment to sit down , have refreshment , read paper. dog comes and starts to paw person or nudge arm with his muzzle . person starts stroking the dog without thinking . dog is rewarded .dog keeps on doing it . anytime, everywhere . becomes a vicious circle. person gets annoyed with arm being shoved, newspaper being pushed , cup a something spilled . gets short with dog , who becomes anxious when something formerly rewarding works against him . continues and continues , escalates .


Hmm yea. Thankyou so much for your help didn't know keeping a dog would involve so much work. I think ill have to put my foot down now.


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Sometimes a pup 'flea bites' out of affection. The pup is also at the land shark phaze so may want to bite and chew on many things. If you verbally correct and send into bed then that is cool. Learn how to follow through and switch the dog into a calm state. Also research redirecting the dogs energy. When a pup or dog has a problem with some one you can go for a walk together and the pup will accept the person more. Obviously leash control is essential.
> 
> 
> The Tyler Muto vids are essential in dealing with this lunging. It is important to cure this as the dog will get more aggressive if pulling on a leash due to opposition reflex. Basically if you hold it back it will want to project forward more. It is also really intimidating for any body on the wrong end of this aggression.


Yes anyone who comes over gets intimidated. What isthe land shark phase? Also could you tell me some ways to redirect his energy? He gets really hyper sometimes and starts chewing on furniture. Nobody can stop him then. Its like he gets these fits (i dont know if its anger or what). Its so frustrating. If i leave the room, he is sober when i come back. But my friend said that i need to control him and he should stop on command and not just by leaving the room. Is that right?


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Fear Period in Young Dogs - YouTube
> 
> There are three parts to this video this is part one, the other two are there in the menu when you look for them on youtube.
> 
> ...


Thankyou so much  the video is of much help. I agree to your point. Only the handler should treat the dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

In there is also a quick point about opposition reflex to the dog. You have to stop that lunging and barking because it is a self reinforcing action. The people in ringsports use that exact same method to drive a dogs drive up for an object. The worst thing is the dog lunging barking and then the stranger freaking out a little. It is addictive to the dog they absolutely love this.


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## ambica (Nov 15, 2013)

Baillif said:


> In there is also a quick point about opposition reflex to the dog. You have to stop that lunging and barking because it is a self reinforcing action. The people in ringsports use that exact same method to drive a dogs drive up for an object. The worst thing is the dog lunging barking and then the stranger freaking out a little. It is addictive to the dog they absolutely love this.


Ohh and my friends freak out a lot. His party days are over for sure now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a reactive dog so I'm going to approach this from a different viewpoint. It sounds like your puppy is trying on his big boy pants. Welcome to the teenage stage. From the sounds of it the leash is creating frustration and ramping him up.

First, stop worrying about what the people are doing. Your job is to train your dog to not react. Period. 

Second, look up LAT and BAT. These behavior modification techniques to work.

I taught Jax LAT (Look At That). If she starts reacting, I turn her around and find a "threshhold" distance to where she is comfortable. We do several LAT's and then move closer staying within a distance that she is not reacting. I don't care if you are in a park, a store or your house. 

As far as people treating him, there is nothing wrong with that and it is not detrimental. HOWEVER, make sure you have him under control first. If he's sitting, the person can toss a treat to him or if they are comfortable with him they can hand it to him. The other person treating him creates the association of good things come from strangers.


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