# Age and size



## melissa246 (Aug 11, 2011)

I've recently spoken to a breeder who suggested a couple of puppies/young dogs for me that fits what I wanted and everything. One of the "puppies" she suggested is 12 weeks old and counting, the other younger dog she suggested is going on 4 months. 

Suppose both dogs are equally talented, have similar play/food drive, willingness to please and temperament:

1. Should I be concerned about the age... the young dog is going on four months :s
I mean, when you get a young puppy, you have a clean slate to work on and I suppose you can train the pup to be what you want, with the older ones or young dogs... would it be easy for me to "re-train" or "train-out" some of their habits.
How hard would it be for me to train them in another language? 
The age was one of my main concerns when she suggested those puppies, can you give some insight?
2. According to her, the young dog that is about to be 4 months old will likely be "90 lbs or more" .The 12 week old puppy will be around 80lbs. When it come to protection ... does size matter? I know that for intimidation, the bigger dog would be more effective. She says both dogs are equally protective. 
3. Health issues, assuming the young dog will be 90lbs or more ... he's going to be pretty big, he will be trained for Schutzhund and will be exercised every single day for extensive hours... which of the 2 would.. uhm, last longer? (i worded that wrong, but i hope you get what i mean, im assuming the lighter one ? since it's less of a strain for him? )


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I recently brought home a "older" puppy specifically for schutzhund.

Zefra was about 13 weeks old when she came home, the litter had a few females held back to assess for temperament and working ability and for future breeding potential. 

Zefra will be about 65-70lbs when fully mature, on the larger end for a female, but hopefully (and we think she will) be within standard.

As for which one will "last longer" I am assuming you mean in terms of their physical ability? Structure (how they are put together - not so much size) plays a role, diet, overall health and temperament, etc... really, there is no telling at this age.. at least I don't think so.

I will say that bringing a older pup home was awesome. She was already crate and potty trained, she had some basic manners already and we kind of already knew her personality a bit (crazy, wild child!).  I would definitely do it again given the choice.


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## melissa246 (Aug 11, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> As for which one will "last longer" I am assuming you mean in terms of their physical ability? Structure (how they are put together - not so much size) plays a role, diet, overall health and temperament, etc... really, there is no telling at this age.. at least I don't think so.
> 
> I will say that bringing a older pup home was awesome. She was already crate and potty trained, she had some basic manners already and we kind of already knew her personality a bit (crazy, wild child!).  I would definitely do it again given the choice.


Yup that's exactly what I meant, Physical Ability. 
Well, if the younger dog will be more than 90lbs .... is that not.. too much? Would they not get more exhausted than the lighter one? However he does have "heavier bone, bigger chest, bigger head" than the younger one. 

I want to add one more question to my original one.... why do breeders still have younger dogs for sale? Did they expect him to be more overall talented and he turned out to be not what they expected? Did they have intentions on keeping him for breeding but now they changed their minds? If so then what went wrong? Is it because nobody wants that particular puppy? etc etc 
(She had 7 puppies from that litter, 2 remained)

The younger dog









The 12 week old puppy


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

melissa246 said:


> 1. Should I be concerned about the age... the young dog is going on four months :s
> I mean, when you get a young puppy, you have a clean slate to work on and I suppose you can train the pup to be what you want, with the older ones or young dogs... would it be easy for me to "re-train" or "train-out" some of their habits.
> How hard would it be for me to train them in another language?
> The age was one of my main concerns when she suggested those puppies, can you give some insight?


It depends a lot on what the breeder has done with the puppy. Has the pup sat in a kennel and done nothing? Have they been out training, being imprinted in obedience and tracking? Taken out and exposed to the world? If so, does the breeder train the way you want? 

The biggest problem I have had with older puppies is ones that were raised in a kennel have been much much harder to house break and keep clean in a crate. I have not found them difficult to teach and train otherwise if they have the right genetics in the first place. 





> 2. According to her, the young dog that is about to be 4 months old will likely be "90 lbs or more" .The 12 week old puppy will be around 80lbs. When it come to protection ... does size matter? I know that for intimidation, the bigger dog would be more effective. She says both dogs are equally protective.


We are talking about puppies. Neither should be protective as of yet. Either this is not what you meant to convey or the breeder is full of nonsense. 



> 3. Health issues, assuming the young dog will be 90lbs or more ... he's going to be pretty big, he will be trained for Schutzhund and will be exercised every single day for extensive hours... which of the 2 would.. uhm, last longer? (i worded that wrong, but i hope you get what i mean, im assuming the lighter one ? since it's less of a strain for him? )


Depends a lot on structure and genetics, but, for the most part, larger dogs don't seem to last as long. I have a 90# male, but he is very athletic so I hope he last many years. I, personally, would not make this my reason for choosing or not choosing a puppy.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I brought home my male when he was 11 weeks old, it was perfect, he had a better attention span and a bigger bladder than an 8 week old puppy. He was completely potty trained before he turned 13 weeks old.

I am going to be fostering a pup for the next 6 months, I pick her up today and she is 11 weeks old. 

Next year when I get my puppy I already worked it out with the breeder that he will keep the puppy until she is 12 weeks old.

I like older pups better, I dont want to bring home an 8 week old puppy.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

melissa246 said:


> I want to add one more question to my original one.... why do breeders still have younger dogs for sale? Did they expect him to be more overall talented and he turned out to be not what they expected? Did they have intentions on keeping him for breeding but now they changed their minds? If so then what went wrong? Is it because nobody wants that particular puppy? etc etc
> (She had 7 puppies from that litter, 2 remained)


There can be many reasons why a breeder has puppies left. My D litter I had a bunch of people that wanted females. I had 5 males and only two females so I had some extra boys for awhile. Or maybe it was a larger litter and the breeder had only so many reservations. Maybe the breeder kept back a couple to watch them grow out a bit before placing them (when I do this I usually keep them through prelims). Maybe the pup showed a lot of promise for work and they didn't have the right homes lined up. Hard to really know. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the pups especially in this economy. IF the puppy is what you want than don't worry about why he is still at the breeders.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

IMO

If both pups had the temperment that I wanted and both would be a good match for me, I would choose the 12 week old puppy.

There is a 4 week difference in age between the 2 pups, I like to start training and socialization right away and I would want to start that at a younger age.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some breeders breed for working and need a longer time to evaluate the pups , or hold on to them longer to allow them to mature before first vaccinations, or need to ship them and have to wait out flight embargos due to temperature .
Pups aren't commodities with a cuteness best before date , although some places I've encountered act as if they were. Get them out asap . Vaccinate at 6 out by 7weeks. Why would your breeder say one of them is "12 weeks old and counting"?

Are both equal in talent. Ask your questions around the temperament , sociabiltiy , etc. not weight projections . If you are in Vancouver area (?) chances are that the schutzhund clubs will be Lance Collins or Doug Deacon -- go and visit the training club and see what kind of dog you should be bringing to those clubs .

All this weight 80 pounds this 90 pounds that has little to do with character or ability . Not important unless you were paying by the pound . You can make either one of the 120 pounds if you wanted to. 

Are the two dogs related ? Same sire - different dams or some such.

Good luck.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one other point -- pups are not really clean slates


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Anything above 50 or 60 lbs starts to be a pretty intimidating threat to would-be ill-doers. I mean yes, you could get a like a Caucasian mountain dog and have a freakin' half-dog, half-bear, and while that's *technically* more intimidating than a large GSD...no crook is going to mess with either one of them, and if he does, he's going to learn a very quick lesson.

What they weigh now might also not be indicative in any way of what they will end up being. The lighter one might grow up to weigh more than the heavier one at full adult weight. Who knows. Puppy growth spurts are unpredictable, just like people growth spurts. I barely recognized one of my best friends when I met him a few years after I graduated high school because he'd grown about six or seven inches.

What carmspack said is also very true - puppies are not *really* blank slates. Think of all the adult dogs people adopt from shelters who live wonderful happy lives with their owners. Dogs that have probably not come from the best of backgrounds. I wouldn't worry about any kind of "imprinting" that has already been done on them.

If you trust that breeder and she does a lot of socialization, flip a coin. If she doesn't socialize well, or doesn't socialize well enough for your standards, choose the younger one. The younger they are the more critical socialization is. I am dealing with issues in my dog now - he's overcoming them by leaps and bounds, but they are still there - because I did not hit up socialization hard enough. Also because I let him be a spoiled brat =/. Hehe. But he is a very fast learner.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

clarifying the "clean slates" , obviously the two are not litter mates, so the difference in the pedigree may make a difference in how you project what they may be like as adults. One of them may have a pedigree that is hard wired to be stubborn , hard nosed, or tentative , suspicious , all without any social or environmental input to the age and stage that they are . 
You have to know the pedigree. At least the breeder really needs to know the pedigree and communicate what they understand and what they were attempting to do with the combinations that they made.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Also has the breeder said anything about additional training that has been done for both puppies? Like for instance crate training, start of basic obedience training? Leash training, etc? Many will have their own opinions on which one to get, IMO at four months the breeder *should* have finished the shots by this age of the older puppy; I said *should* because some do and others wait depending on vet appointments scheduled. The younger puppy will still have more shots to get. Both puppies *look* good and healthy. The ear on the older one concerns me because the tip of it is folded inward still, you may have to work with the ear to get it to stand. 

*My* own preference would be for the four months old puppy over the 12wk old. But, that is *my* preference. Where is the breeder located? Will this puppy be shipped? Picked up at airport or at the breeders? If the breeder has time I would ask them to videotape both for you (if the puppy has to be shipped), so that you can get an idea overall which one will be better for what you are looking for in a puppy.

I've known many who have had puppies from breeders as old as 6 months to 14months old and they have worked out for them, they didn't have to deal with a lot of the issues you have with a 8wk-10wk old puppy. The puppies where mostly potty trained by those ages, crate trained, shots done, socialized to different sounds, animals, people, etc. So as I've said its truly up to what the breeder has been doing with both of them at their current ages.


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## melissa246 (Aug 11, 2011)

thanks to everyone who have responded. I've requested that she sent me the pedigrees and I have them so hopefully some of you are still watching this thread and continue to advice me. 

Pedigrees for the older pup (4 month old)
Sire : Presto von Narnia - German Shepherd Dog
Dam: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1ENkm9QWTP0d5rRcgC7ybxhEQB9zaZiLYwrCPfKN95m6cEq2Z82yUumW3hex-&hl=en

Pedigree for the 12 week old pup
Sire: Sorry i cant figure out how to share it with you, its an .htm that was sent to my email. I see lots of ScHIII tittles, some IPO3, FH2, FH1

Dam: dam is gypsy, should be on the second slide on the google doc link (she scanned the pedigrees for me)

As for temperament, socializing , I've expressed my concerns to her and this is what she responded with:
"We start them on crate training, teach them good manners, socialize them heavily with people of different ages (I have five children, so there are many children coming and going). They spend time in the house and the kennel and are very well used to a variety of routines. Many of our pups spend time with me or with some of our foster homes so that they adapt easily to different situations "
"Training at this age is very quick and easy, though with my own pups that I raise, I actually do not teach them any formal obedience commands until they are between eight and twelve months of age. All they are required to do is walk nicely on a leash, come to me when I call, and be crate trained and good in the house."

This breeder is all across the country, so had I wish to purchase a puppy from her she will have to ship him to me... which is making the choice harder since I can't visit the pups before hand.


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## melissa246 (Aug 11, 2011)

CelticGlory said:


> The ear on the older one concerns me because the tip of it is folded inward still, you may have to work with the ear to get it to stand.


I was wondering the same.... his ears just look very big and weird :s
I've also noticed some brown spots on his right ear.. is that moles? what is it?

Look at those huge ears compared to his head lol ... does that not look disproportionate? or will his head grow bigger as he matures 
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&...ttid=0.8&disp=inline&realattid=f_gs1qcp9p7&zw


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## melissa246 (Aug 11, 2011)

In all honesty I do like this breeder, i've had constant communications with her for the past week and she answered any questions I had (i think she answered them with honesty) and was willing to provide requested information. More over, she was interested to learn more about me and she wanted to learn about my life style, what i'm looking for etc etc unlike some other "reputable" breeders. But then again, since I have very little knowledge about this breed, i can't really tell if she's just trying to get rid of her older pups cause no one wants them. Or if she intended to train him for police work or whatever else but didnt work out. 

She did suggest that if I was concerned about the age, she could try to match me with a pup from her current litter, she also advised me that the 4 month old pup "is a puppy with great potential and I love his disposition as well. However, if you would prefer the younger puppy option, then we can look at the litter that was just born. "

I simply just do not know. I don't want to get the older pup and then having trouble getting him familiar with me and bonding with him and be scared, suspicious and cautious about everything. (like an unfriendly cat that only comes to you if it smells food, but is scared, cautious and stand off-ish all the time)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

As stated, the pups are only 4 (or less) weeks apart in age. You should go with the one you prefer. They are both puppies. 4 months is not a young dog, it's a puppy. Either one is at an age to house train and to mold. If the older one has been started on socialization that is something to consider.
JMHO


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## melissa246 (Aug 11, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> As stated, the pups are only 4 (or less) weeks apart in age. You should go with the one you prefer. They are both puppies. 4 months is not a young dog, it's a puppy. Either one is at an age to house train and to mold. If the older one has been started on socialization that is something to consider.
> JMHO


Both have been socialized and crate trained, leash trained etc etc , from what I could tell from her email is that the older pup (4 month old) shows more potential and is more promising for police work or schutzhund and has higher energy than the younger one.
Ball/retrieve drive on both are moderately high
food drive are high on both
"Both of them are puppies with a high will to please and a great deal of natural social behaviour with people."


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You won't have any issues with bonding with a four month old. I got Gryffon when he was six months old - no issues in bonding, easy-going temperament, obedience, engagement, and so on. 
Yes, young puppies are fun! But four months old is still a very young pup, with all the potential in the world that you want to bring out. 

I'm with the others, I'd consider which one of the individual pups would meet my wants and needs best, and not worry about the age. Sounds like a good breeder who knows her puppies and will help you make the best choice possible.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can't view the peds, but I'll jump in the age thing..I agree with Lisa's post on what have the puppies been doing? It seems like she has answered those questions tho.

Are you in close proximity that you can go and visit EACH puppy? I also wouldn't be concerned with 'age'. 

If the breeder is someone you trust, and you have given them a good explanation of what you want in a dog, what you want to do, not want in a dog, don't want to do, your lifestyle etc..then they will know best which one would fit your lifestyle. 

The oldest I've gotten dogs is 12 weeks, never had a problem, wouldn't hesitate to go older if it was something that I wanted and would fit into my lifestyle/expectations.

Size wise?, all my males except one, were within the 80-84# range, and most people thought they were bigger, all 26"...I had one 'the mutant', we called him, who was 32" at the shoulders and a lean 125lbs, he couldn't get out of his own way if his life depended on it,,a big slug who was happy being a slug 90lbs depending on his height/length, isn't out of the norm I guess, but it's pushing the higher end of weight.

Both puppies are gorgeous by the way, I'd be hard pressed to choose by just looking at pics


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