# Getting a puppy from these parents



## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

What do you think of these german shepherds? We are getting a puppy, I have seen pictures but didn't save it correctly... We are going to meet her Sunday. Her name is Mila. We love her!

I don't care about her pedigree, but I'm curious about what any thoughts on the parents? This is their first litter, the dad is 10 years old. 

Thanks!








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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Well, they look like lovely GSD but it's very difficult to give an opinion without a pedigree.

What do you know of hip & elbow scores for both?


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

Courtney said:


> Well, they look like lovely GSD but it's very difficult to give an opinion without a pedigree.
> 
> What do you know of hip & elbow scores for both?



unfortunately, nothing. The owners of these dogs don't seem to have a ton of knowledge and aren't breeders. They just wanted the puppy to go to somebody who was focused on a "family dog."

What attracted me to them is that they have small children and live on a farm and the dogs seem to be exposed to many different things.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If they are asking more than $200 for those puppies it's too much. 

If you are spending more than $200 for a puppy from those parents, your money is better spent at Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

ElviraCross said:


> unfortunately, nothing. The owners of these dogs don't seem to have a ton of knowledge and aren't breeders. They just wanted the puppy to go to somebody who was focused on a "family dog."
> 
> What attracted me to them is that they have small children and live on a farm and the dogs seem to be exposed to many different things.


I would not get a dog from them, there are plenty of responsible breeders who have puppies raised in this same fashion who also get the proper health tests and temperament tests for the parents.

Please read this:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Even if this dog is "just a pet" it's very important to go with a breeder who tests for common health problems like x raying hips/elbows (hip dysplasia is very common in this breed).
Also, it's very important to choose a breeder who works/shows/does something with their dogs to prove they fit the breed standard and that their temperament is great. This breed can have nerve issues, aggression issues, etc. 
Knowing the parents' pedigrees is very important in pairing the dogs to breed so you can have a good idea of what you are going to end up with.
Unfortunately, just caring about the dogs is not enough and would constitute someone as a "backyard breeder." You may end up with a great dog from them, but you may end up with a genetic mess. Either stack the cards in your favor and choose a reputable breeder or support a rescue. There are plenty of purebred GSDs that need homes.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Looking at the pics doesn't really tell us much of anything, especially lying down. 

In a situation like this, where you're breeding two pets without any health or temperament testing, it's just really important to use your eyes and best judgement. It's a good sign that the male is 10 year old and breeding, for crying out loud, but take a look at his movement and conformation. Se how he's getting around. The female too for that matter. You should be able to meet both parents and see how the interact with you and your kids, not just the owner and their kids. You want to see dogs that are neither skittish and fearful, nor aggressive towards friendly strangers. If you and your kids can't meet and pet both parents, walk away. (Obviously this does not apply to the mom if she has brand new little babies nursing, but other than that you should be able to meet and pet her).


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

ElviraCross said:


> unfortunately, nothing. The owners of these dogs don't seem to have a ton of knowledge and aren't breeders.


They are breeders. Not very good breeders, but they are breeders and should be held to the same standard as all the other breeders.

Personally, I want the breeders I give my money to to have some knowledge of the breed. Buying from folks like this will only encourage them to breed some more.
Sheilah


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

sit said:


> They are breeders. Not very good breeders, but they are breeders and should be held to the same standard as all the other breeders.
> 
> Personally, I want the breeders I give my money to to have some knowledge of the breed. Buying from folks like this will only encourage them to breed some more.
> Sheilah


Exactly. Excusing themselves by saying they are not breeders is false. 
Anyone who owns a male and female and allows or encourages them to breed, no matter what the breed, and make a litter of puppies _is_ a breeder, I'm sorry to say. 
As sitstay said, not great breeders or maybe even bad breeders, but breeders nonetheless. 

And you are not _adopting_ this puppy you are purchasing it (if you so decide to), and they are not "rehoming" this puppy, they are selling it.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

thanks for everyone's responses!

we are meeting both of the adult dogs as well as the puppy Sunday and will be able to interact with them. 

They are asking 180 for the puppy. 

They also haven't said that NO they don't have pedigree/hip info... I just don't know it yet. 

They did mention that the female came from chech lines. 

I've only known about the puppy for a day so that is why I don't have much info. 

And honestly I'm not sure why some of you have such a mean tone to your responses. If I want to say "adopt" I will. I obviously know I'm "buying" the dog if I do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Either stack the cards in your favor and choose a reputable breeder or support a rescue. There are plenty of purebred GSDs that need homes.



:thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

These are puppies that will need a home. If they are awesome pet dogs, and have decent temperaments, they will probably produce some awesome pet dogs with decent temperaments. Probably. 

If they are not crippled, then it is likely that they will produce puppies that are not crippled. 

They both look like GSDs.

You can pay as much at a rescue buying a dog. Only then you will be able to claim you adopted it, even though you paid for it, just the same. 

I am not condoning this type of breeding. But if you want a pet dog, do not care about pedigrees, are not planning on showing, are not expecting the dog to walk on water, or bite the sleeve, or search for dead bodies, etc., and you understand that when you buy a living, breathing creature, there will be imperfections in health and temperament that will need to be worked on. Then, this does not appear to be the worst situation. 

It attracted you that they have small children and their dogs are good with their small children. Good, go the extra mile and ask whether the puppies were raised around the small children and notice how much contact and what kind of contact the puppies are getting. 

$200/puppy is not going to encourage people to quit their jobs and build a kennel building out back and sell puppies for their livelihood. Buying from a pet store actually does do this. When that cage is emptied a puppy is purchased to fill it. When that puppy is purchased another bitch is bred. It is a viscious cycle. If people have 1 dog and 1 bitch at least the animals are living a life and not stuck forever in a dark cess pit full of fecies.

If there are no health checks on sire and dam, are there papers? If so, what is the registry? Are they providing first shots and are they having a veterinarian administer them. 

Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, getting a dog from a breeder who is not an expert, may mean they will do a lot more for the money that they are getting than some of the experts. 

If you are getting a puppy who is registerable AKC, has its first set of shots from a veterinarian, and was raised on a farm with a bunch of kids, you can actually get a very nice pet for $200. It is also possible that your dog will have no more health problems than a well-bred dog, and the dog might be fine as a pet, and not any more weak-nerved than a dog with a pedigree out of any of the lines.

You have to go and look. You have to see whether the people seem like decent people who treat their dogs well. You have to look at the dogs and see if they are well-mannered and even-tempered. If they are, and your budget is $200 for a dog, well, it is your decision. Most of us have bought dogs from worse situations, and thought less about it prior to the fact.

And, for many of us, those dogs turned out just fine, and did not have onerous vet expenditures. 

Some have bought out of questionable situations and have had their hearts broken. But some have bought from decent breeders and paid well over a thousand and have had their hearts broken. 

If I could say, that if you spend $1500 for a dog, you will not have temperament problems, and you will not have hip or elbow dyslpasia, epilepsy, cancer, or DM, then I would tell you to turn your back and save the money up and get a healthy pup from a well-established reputable breeder. Unfortunately, wherever you get your pup, breeder, rescue, pound, no one can guaranty health. They can give you a warranty, most of them though, require the dog be returned, thus they are not worth the paper they are printed on.

I personally would not buy the pup from these people because I want to support breeders who are breeding toward a goal that is similar to what I am looking for. But there was a time that I would have bought a dog for them. I think there is nothing wrong with getting your feet wet in the breed with a dog that is a nice overall pet. And down the line when you are really into training or trials, or want to do showing, then you aren't a total novice, and the better breeders will want for you to buy a puppy from them.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

ElviraCross said:


> thanks for everyone's responses!
> 
> we are meeting both of the adult dogs as well as the puppy Sunday and will be able to interact with them.
> 
> ...


 
Well, technically adopt means to rescue a dog and buy means to purchase from whomever. The reason why some people may seem to have a mean tone is because many of us have some sort of involvement in rescue and see the direct result of indiscriminate backyard breeders.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

I know what you mean. I wanted a purebred german shepherd so bad after ive lost my 2 males over the last 2 years.
There was NO way i could afford the $1500-$3000 per puppy i was getting from breeders..although i fully understand why they charge so much
I just wanted a family friend and pet.
I found similar to you a couple that bred their female with a neighbors male because they both wanted a puppy each. They are AKC and have papers and had vet records saying hips were ok...and pups were reasonably priced.
I just love my pup he will be 6 months soon and ive had him since he was 10 weeks. Wouldnt trade him for the world and im very glad i got him. Even thou some of my fellow rescue volunteers and german shepherd friends were concerned i was gettting a pup from a "backyard breeder" . 
i tried to adot at the rescue i volunteer with,but there is waiting list for puppies...and i knew i wanted a male and standard coat black and tan..the price i paid for my pup is what the rescue would of charged me to adopt....good luck on your new puppy


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Well, technically adopt means to rescue a dog and buy means to purchase from whomever. The reason why some people may seem to have a mean tone is because many of us have some sort of involvement in rescue and see the direct result of indiscriminate backyard breeders.


I get that, but SOMEBODY will buy these dogs... why not us who will love and take great care of the dog. 

The fact that the made dog is 10 and was able to breed is a good sign that he's fairly healthy still. 

I'm also confused by the hip testing. What is the tests came back with undesirable results? The puppy still deserves a family to go to.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> I know what you mean. I wanted a purebred german shepherd so bad after ive lost my 2 males over the last 2 years.
> There was NO way i could afford the $1500-$3000 per puppy i was getting from breeders..although i fully understand why they charge so much
> I just wanted a family friend and pet.
> I found similar to you a couple that bred their female with a neighbors male because they both wanted a puppy each. They are AKC and have papers and had vet records saying hips were ok...and pups were reasonably priced.
> ...


thanks! This is exactly what I mean. This puppy deserves a home no matter what these people are like. And if they ARE irresponsible breeders then maybe I would want to take the dog even more because of that.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I want to add that my dog was also from someone who just wanted their dogs to have a litter and he was less than $200- found him in the paper. He turned out to be an amazing dog (took a lot of socializing though-he went through some fear stages with people). BUT- knowing what I know now- I would NEVER go this route again. I feel that I got LUCKY this time, but will never 1. take my chances again 2. support backyard breeders. A long time ago, everyone seemed to breed their dogs to get one litter, but we have a severe pet overpopulation problem and there are just way too many dogs- and purebred dogs- that need homes to breed for this reason. 
Knowing what I know now, if I went to a breeder, it would be a very reputable breeder, but likely I will only rescue. I'd rather take the same chance with a rescue and support them than supporting a backyard breeder. No matter how cheap they are getting rid of the puppies for, if they can get rid of them it reinforces their goals.



> ElviraCross said:
> 
> 
> > thanks! This is exactly what I mean. This puppy deserves a home no matter what these people are like. And if they ARE irresponsible breeders then maybe I would want to take the dog even more because of that.


They aren't. All that testing and titling is expensive, they wouldn't be selling the dog for $180


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And if they ARE irresponsible breeders then maybe I would want to take the dog even more because of that.


Why would you do that, and risk an undesirable temperament around your kids, if you have them (presuming you do since that attracted you to them).

Roo also didn't mention her puppy's ears do not stand -and no, spending $1000 on a puppy from a good breeder won't guarantee they'll stand, but the puppies will have a better chance of being healthy and "looking" like they are supposed to, because the good breeders know what they are breeding, and breed to _better the breed. _
Not breeding just because they have two opposite sex dogs.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i am one that sees both sides as i volunteer for dog rescues..we see dogs dumped way too often for being too agressive ,having hip problems,or just sick,allergies etc..all which can be stopped from over breeding. 
I would of loved to be able to spend thousands to buy my puppy with great pedigrees and championship lines,but i really just wanted a pet.And i also need to make sure i have money to take care of my pet..should anything arise health wise.
My best advice...ask for parents vet records..or they can call their vet and tell them to release the info to you.Also meet the parents..notice the temperment.Look for any aggression signs..how old are the puppies now?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The pup does deserve a home. 
But _supporting_ a breeder who puts dogs together to make a bit of cash is what everyone is getting at. 
Good reputable, responsible breeders do so much, and invest so much, to make sure they are putting dogs together to have the odds that their pups will have good health and temperament than the ones that will let a 10yr old male breed with their pet.
I hope your pup turns out to have an awesome temperament and will live a long, healthy life. 
And if these breeders breed their two again, you can be sure it isn't in the puppies best interest, but their own bank account.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Why would you do that, and risk an undesirable temperament around your kids, if you have them (presuming you do since that attracted you to them).
> 
> Roo also didn't mention her puppy's ears do not stand -and no, spending $1000 on a puppy from a good breeder won't guarantee they'll stand, but the puppies will have a better chance of being healthy and "looking" like they are supposed to, because the good breeders know what they are breeding, and breed to _better the breed. _
> Not breeding just because they have two opposite sex dogs.


 nor did i mention my friend that spent $2500 on her dog has one floppy ear too.and my other that spent $1500 and the poor dog has allergies and has to be fed specail food...all from great breeders...sometimes things just happen... dosent matter to me..i love my pet no matter what! he could have 3 legs and be perfect in my eyes. ill take a floppy ear to know hes healthy and his hips are fine


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

the puppy is currently 7 weeks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You can spent $2500 and buy a dog from crappy breeders, which is maybe what your friend did.
And if you read my post, no, money doesn't guarantee ears that stand.

What I said was what everyone else is saying. It's better to save your money and buy from the best breeder you can, in order to have the best chance at having a healthy dog that looks like a GSD is supposed to, although health is more important that looks, but in many cases, "looks" have a direct connection to health.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What vaccines have been given(hopefully none yet) 



 Did the breeder do biosensor program with the pups? 
Did they do regular wormings? What diet was the dam on, and what are the babies eating? 
There is so much to breeding, raising pups and getting a good start from even before the whelp helps.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

no vaccines yet, they did say the first round of vaccines is done by their vet.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ElviraCross said:


> I get that, but SOMEBODY will buy these dogs... why not us who will love and take great care of the dog.
> 
> The fact that the made dog is 10 and was able to breed is a good sign that he's fairly healthy still.
> 
> ...


Sure, the dog deserves a home. Only thing to consider is you may be at some increased risk of health problems. Absolutely no guarantee either way, though. Just keep that in mind, as dog health issues sure get expensive fast.

A good breeder is also a great support base when things come up. Hobby breeders generally can't/won't provide support after pup leaves. They generally won't take the dog back if anything comes up.

I'm curious to know, if Dad is 10, how old is the bitch?

It'll be interesting to actually meet them. 

You say it is their "first" litter -- as in oops kind of thing, or new business opportunity for them? Just curious.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm glad I posted on here because now I have many of the questions to ask them when we met them. 

I posted on here because I assumed that everyone here has experience with buying a GS puppy or what to look for. 

I do not have the luxury of giving 1500 to a breeder. I don't see a difference in spending the 180 on this puppy than any other dog. 

It needs a home, I will give it a home if I'm happy with what I hear Sunday.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

chelle said:


> Sure, the dog deserves a home. Only thing to consider is you may be at some increased risk of health problems. Absolutely no guarantee either way, though. Just keep that in mind, as dog health issues sure get expensive fast.
> 
> A good breeder is also a great support base when things come up. Hobby breeders generally can't/won't provide support after pup leaves. They generally won't take the dog back if anything comes up.
> 
> ...


The way she said it is that they were trying for years but have had a hard time getting the dog pregnant. I think the bitch is 3 tho... 

I already thought about the return policy. I am compiling a list


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Do you have the luxury of spending $1500 or more on elbow surgery for a dog when he's 1yr. old because he's got elbow dysplasia?
Or would you then opt to put him to sleep?


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Do you have the luxury of spending $1500 or more on elbow surgery for a dog when he's 1yr. old because he's got elbow dysplasia?
> Or would you then opt to put him to sleep?


are you having a bad day or something? 

We aren't idiots and understand EVERY dog comes with health risks.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> A good breeder is also a great support base when things come up. *Hobby breeders* generally can't/won't provide support after pup leaves. They generally won't take the dog back if anything comes up.


Hobby breeders are not the same as a (byb)breeder that takes shortcuts out of ignorance or just because they are not into jumping thru hoops to do it right. 
A hobby breeder is one that doesn't do it for their livelihood, but trains/titles, works their own dogs, health tests and knows pedigrees and how to match. 
Big difference. And a hobby breeder will provide support, usually more personal than a commercial kennel or a BYB type.

I'd go to a hobby breeder before any other!


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Hobby breeders are not the same as a breeder that takes shortcuts out of ignorance or just because they are not into jumping thru hoops to do it right.
> A hobby breeder is one that doesn't do it for their livelihood, but trains/titles, works their own dogs, health tests and knows pedigrees and how to match.
> Big difference. And a hobby breeder will provide support, usually more personal than a commercial kennel or a BYB type.
> 
> I'd go to a hobby breeder before any other!


I agree!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One can make money hand over fist selling puppies for $100. Another can lose money selling puppies for $1500. It depends what all they are doing. If it appears that they put a lot of time and energy as well as some money into this, then chances are they are not going to repeat if they get $200 per puppy. Trust me that there are easier ways to make a thousand or two. 

A lot of breeders (and rescues) want to know how you fared with previous dogs, whether you have owned working dogs, whether you have owned large dogs, etc. People have to start somewhere. My drop dead, no way are then getting a red cent from me, is if they are abusing their dogs, making them live in filthy conditions etc. 

So if these people aren't such good owners, to the point where they are not caring for the dogs or puppies, then giving them ANY money is encouraging that, and dooming their animals to continue to live in terrible conditions to produce more puppies. Rescuing a puppy out of such a situation, is not rescuing, not if it dooms the parents and probably other females to the same fate.

Feel free to use the term adopt. You are likening it to adding a family member to your family who is not you biological child. Frankly, my nieces are adopted, and I know what my sister went through and what that was like, and how much that costed, and acquiring a dog really cannot compare no matter where you got it from. We usually let rescue people feel they hold a monopoly on that word. But adoption is just when you graft in a family member rather than birthing one. And it gives the erroneous impression that if you purchase a puppy from a breeder, you now own a pet; if you adopt from a shelter or rescue, you welcome a family member. The fact is that some people go to rescues or shelters out of some feeling of guilt/responsibility toward unfortunate/homeless animals. The rest of them, go there because it is cheaper to get from a shelter or rescue and you get them vaccinated and speutered. It does not make them better to buy from a rescue or shelter. It does not make you worse from buying from a breeder -- if the breeder is not keeping dogs in an unhealthy environment.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Elvira, click on Karlo's name in my signature to see a good breeder's website. There is much info on it along with great articles. Then you can be more informed when you go to visit the breeder.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Elvira, click on Karlo's name in my signature to see a good breeder's website. There is much info on it along with great articles. Then you can be more informed when you go to visit the breeder.


thanks so much!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes people can and do sell their puppies for $200 each and "make money".
If a bitch has 10 puppies, that's 2k tax free income. You see it happen right around Christmas, as a rule 
I even saw an ad on craigslist where a guy was selling his puppies for $200 and advertised that "you could turn around and sell them for $400 each" - that was right before Christmas.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ElviraCross said:


> are you having a bad day or something?
> 
> We aren't idiots and understand EVERY dog comes with health risks.


Agreed, it may have come across as harsh, but a fair question, really. :blush: When you purchase totally "unknown" - you up your risks. Too many dogs get dumped when their healthcare issues overwhelm the pocketbook. 

The testing ups your odds of getting a healthier dog, that's all.

It worries me that they said they'd been trying for such a long time to impregnate, but then you describe them as "don't seem to have a lot of knowledge."

I may be reaching, but that tells me they didn't do their homework at all. Just assumed that since they had seemingly healthy dogs, they should produce seemingly healthy pups. They could be right, but it's your gamble to make for the next 10++ years!



onyx'girl said:


> Hobby breeders are not the same as a breeder that takes shortcuts out of ignorance or just because they are not into jumping thru hoops to do it right.
> A hobby breeder is one that doesn't do it for their livelihood, but trains/titles, works their own dogs, health tests and knows pedigrees and how to match.
> Big difference. And a hobby breeder will provide support, usually more personal than a commercial kennel or a BYB type.
> 
> I'd go to a hobby breeder before any other!


I am sorry to use the wrong term. Honestly I didn't know that was the definition of "hobby breeder." I stand corrected, and know something new.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Yes people can and do sell their puppies for $200 each and "make money".
> If a bitch has 10 puppies, that's 2k tax free income. You see it happen right around Christmas, as a rule
> I even saw an ad on craigslist where a guy was selling his puppies for $200 and advertised that "you could turn around and sell them for $400 each" - that was right before Christmas.


oh I'm sure, I never sad that people don't do this, I know don't think these people do. But that's why I'm meeting them at their home and trying to see for myself.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah it's been rough here.
We rescued a puppy from the streets last summer. Literally, he was wandering the streets. 
Next week we have to decide if his elbows are worth operating on, to the tune of some $2200. He's just over a year of age. And limps daily. 

So, there's a lot to consider when you choose a puppy. Just realize that it can be wonderful, the puppy could be your dream puppy - and he will seem like it, because puppy fever is very strong. 

But keep in mind if things go wrong - and the odds can be stacked against you at this point because I'm betting neither parent has been x-rayed for hips or elbows - it can cost you either a bundle, or even your dog's life


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ElviraCross said:


> I agree!


Not trying to be a pain, but the people you're considering buying from would *not* fall into the "hobby breeder" category, based on what is defined here as a hobby breeder.

I have some personal feelings here. My son's dogs mated and produced a mixed breed litter. I did sell several of the dogs. I was upfront. No papers. They're mixed. Here is mom, here is dad. They seem to be perfectly healthy and that's all I can tell you is what I told them. I also told them they needed to contact me first if anything changed, rather than re-home or craigslist them. I ended up keeping one for myself, and two others were returned. I rehomed one of them, and kept the other, in spite of having no intentions of having *any* of them.

By all proper definition, my son was a "byb." I took the pups back, but if I hadn't, who knows where they would've gone. Will these folks do the same? I'm not saying you will be giving up the dog! I'm just saying that things come up. I never, ever expected two of those dogs to come back as they did, but they did. I do shudder to think about where they may have ended up if I hadn't taken them back.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A friend of mine bought a $200 pup a GSD/Husky mix... thinking possibly the cross wouldn't have as many health issues as a pure bred might. His hips were horrid, he started limping when he was just a year old, and she had to have FHO's done on both. 
He is absolutely gorgeous and lucked out having her as his owner. Not many would be able to afford to do the surgeries(and my friend did go without so her boy could be relieved of the pain he had)....especially when they can't afford to support a good breeder.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think of backyard breeders as ones who do it deliberately with the intention of having cute fluffies, and maybe making a few bucks. Usually purebred, but often mixed with "cool" other things - such as a dog we took who was a product of such breeders, and a mix of English Setter and English Springer Spaniel. 
I see also mixed, Chihuahua x Dachshund, Border Collie x Aussie, and the like. Some are oops, but many are deliberate.



> Not many would be able to afford to do the surgeries(and my friend did go without so her boy could be relieved of the pain he had)....especially when they can't afford to support a good breeder.


Hey now! 

I'm one who can safely say "we can't afford a $1500 dog", but here we are, Ruger's elbows are going to cost every bit that.
Although we did not purchase Ruger, and he was a stray with no history at all, we never knew or saw where he came from, it is most certainly a "backyard breeder" and I'm willing to bet they did it deliberately. 

We're at the cross roads now and could easily let him live out his life with us until he's too miserable (from how he limps that's perhaps 6mos), and purchase a well-bred dog for the $1500-2k we're spending on his elbows. 

But there's that silly thing called "love"...


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

my 'backyard breeder" as some may consider him would in fact take my pup back for any reason but i would never ever give him back for any reason. they have also had puupy play dates in which we all come back with our pups to see how everyone is and let the pups play. we are in contact alot..they email or call to see how Zeus is and ask for pics.Its been great to see Zeus with his brothers and sisters and mom and dad..and its something we all plan on doing for a long time.They have become what i would consider friends.....yes ive thought about what is going to happen if he gets hip problems or other health problems..and i guess just like when i needed a unexpected root canal that i did not have the $2000 in my pocket for..i used my dentists care credit...which my vet also offers..so i will cross that bridge IF i ever need to


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

As I said, I lucked out with my dog, but also had to put a ton of work into him to make him social.

My coworker also found a dog for a few hundred bucks and met the parents, etc. the puppies were loved but this was not a reputable breeder (no hip xrays on the parents, didn't work/show the dogs, didn't think of the breeding pair beyond male/female). She ended up with a very nervy, oversized dog. He has attempted to bite several people and she can't take him anywhere anymore. He's huge and cow-hocked, and just not anywhere close to a good example of the breed.

Yes, you're right these puppies need a home. But the only way to stop people from doing things is to boycott them. If they aren't making money, they won't do it again. By buying the puppy you are supporting them. You don't need $1500 for a purebred GSD, rescue one! Go to the rescue section on this site alone and you'll see just how many purebred GSDs there are.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Sometimes the group think on here drives me nuts.
One of the best dogs I have ever had (and I've had a lot in my lifetime ) was from a guy who advertised a GSD puppy on an ad near Wal-Mart.

Cost me fifty bucks. It would take a long time to write out all the qualities that dog had. She was special.

The only really problem dog I ever had was from what turned out to be a not very good rescue. A BC fear biter. We had to manage that dog and worry about it all the time.

I've had dogs from animal control, the humane society, people re-homing and the "only" dog that had issues was the Border Collie. 

I had one lab from the pound that had seizures and he lived a good life to a ripe old age with the help of seizure meds.

I have also had and have pure breds. If you are going to buy a pure bred pup and have at least $1000.00 dollars then I agree with most of the comments about reputable breeders.

That puppy needs a home just like all the other dogs without homes wherever they come from. If the pup satisfies your needs and has been well cared for then you shouldn't be made to feel guilty.

Your an adult, make your best decision and you may get the greatest pet you'll ever have.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's, did it ever occur to you that people are trying to save others from heartache?
My 17yr. old sobbed like a baby when we got the verdict about her puppy's elbows. 
And again yesterday when trying to sort out exactly which direction we should go.
And if the OP gets this puppy and it bites one of her kids in 8mos., causing lifelong scarring, it's going to hurt more than the child involved.

There is nothing wrong with stacking the odds in your favor, or people advising others to do so.

We've always had shelter dogs, too, and if someone can't afford a $1000 or more on a dog, I'll always recommend a shelter over a backyard style breeder such as this one. 
Most the time, you luck out. Sometimes, you just don't. 
That's not to say spending gobs of money guarantees a great pet or healthy dog. 
Just like with dog food, "you get what you pay for" in most cases, in some cases you can spend big bucks and still get crap.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A good breeder will take their dogs back if there is a problem, and the owner cannot keep the dog. But, how many good breeders want to hear buyers asking this question? Think about it, we want buyers who understand they are getting a dog and it is a lifetime commitment. Breeders want dogs to go to forever homes too. 

I don't know. There are a lot of excellent reasons to support good breeders and to not support breeders who just want one litter, who want for their bitch to experience motherhood, who just want to pay for the bitch, who just want to cover expenses, and the whole slew of other reasons to breed dogs that we all cringe at. 

But there is also a market for inexpensive dogs. There are buyers out there than cannot afford the prices that decent breeders are charging. A lot of them would be turned away by rescues because they are renting, have no fence, have small children, or there may not be puppies available. 

There are many sources for inexpensive dogs. There is your typical BYB/small scale puppy mill, who has a bunch of dogs and takes care of them fair, breeds them 1-2 times a year, and sells the puppies for $200-$400. There are the people who have a pet bitch, maybe a pet dog, and get them together to make pet puppies. There are Amish puppy mills who will sell to the public for around the same price range. They may or may not take good care of the bitch and pups, but chance are good that the animals are raised like livestock, and the condition that the animals are kept in when not raising a litter, are likely to be something that would horrify most of us. 

Currently there is no one out on the corner offering to make up the difference so that you can afford to go to a reputable breeder. 

These people are going to buy dogs from somewhere. 

I guess my feeling is that it is better to suggest a reasonable list of requirements, or deal breakers so that the buyer has a better idea of what to look for.

If the puppies have papers, vet checked, first shots, and the parents have ofa certifications, and titles, the puppies will not go for $180. 

You might be able to get papers on the pups, vet checked, first shots. 

If they are doing all of that, then the chances are good that $180 per puppy is not going to be enough of an incentive to do this time and time again. If the dogs are in good condition and the living conditions are good, and the puppies are raised within the home, I think that the buyer might do a whole lot worse. 

I think the buyer cannot afford to stack the deck in her favor, with the understanding that it is still a gamble.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I'm one who can safely say "we can't afford a $1500 dog", but here we are, Ruger's elbows are going to cost every bit that.
> Although we did not purchase Ruger, and he was a stray with no history at all, we never knew or saw where he came from, it is most certainly a "backyard breeder" and I'm willing to bet they did it deliberately.


I know that my comment would cause a stir, but many, many who say they can't afford a $1500 pup can, but really just won't pay it out of the principal. 
Those that rescue probably spend way more than those that purchase cheap dogs on CL for medical care. Easy come, easy go for them...rescue people have so much passion and heart or they wouldn't be doing it!
Obviously you will do what you have to do out of the passion you have to help, but there are people who buy a cheap or want the free dog, because they can't afford anything. Those are the ones that would not invest in the medical. 
I have a hard time investing in allergy testing, etc to manage Onyx. And she was one of the $250 dogs from a byb...I can't imagine what a real medical situation would set me back. Yet I have no problem(hesitation) spending money regularly for toys, good food and training.

If my dog needed FHO's or other medical, I would do what I had to do to get the treatment.

Oh, and with Onyx, I had high hopes to do agility, ScH and other things with her, but her temperament limited it. I have to manage her instead. 
after seeing her limitations, I went with a good responsible breeder and paid the normal amount to have a dog that I could do sports and activities with. 
That is the sad thing....a dog of poor breeding and one of good genes~ what a difference!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> A good breeder will take their dogs back if there is a problem, and the owner cannot keep the dog. But, how many good breeders want to hear buyers asking this question?


Yeah as a rescue I love hearing "can we bring it back and get our money back if it doesn't work out?" I mean sure - depending on how hard you tried to make it work you may or may not get a refund!

As for trying rescues and shelters, I think many don't because they _think_ they'll get declined or they just don't want to try that hard. 
I mean, craigslist is a hop, skip and a jump a way, and so is the Nickel or whatever want - ad paper you have there, and even the newspaper.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I know that my comment would cause a stir, but many, many who say they can't afford a $1500 pup can, but really just won't pay it out of the principal.


We had a breeder in mind who didn't think her breeding took, when Ruger showed up. Weeks later we learned it did. Ruger was already here. 
Do I wish I'd have done it differently? Yeah, I do. 
But someone else would have gotten Ruger (he'd have been up for adoption had we decided to wait for my friend's litter) and they may have not opted to do the surgery.
I guess it works out like it's supposed to. I don't know 

What I do know...is his lovely temperament makes up for his elbows. That's all I got right now. :wild:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with JACK's Dad on this one

Things I would take into consideration with "any" pet, is, forgetting the initial cost, can one afford a BIG ER bill or a big surgery should it be needed down the road, is one willing to deal with severe health issues if they crop up?

Certainly this can happen with a 1500$ dog or a $50 dog. It's just something everyone needs to keep in mind.

I don't believe in supporting people that are randomly breeding FiFi and Fido. However, every animal deserves a good life/home. It's here, someone is going to buy it whether it's the OP or someone else. 

If she's willing to go in with her eyes wide open, and is happy with what she sees, their temperaments etc, she's living with the dog, not us, so go for it.

Good Post Andy:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m with Diane and Andy on this one also.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm with JACK's Dad on this one
> 
> *Things I would take into consideration with "any" pet, is, forgetting the initial cost, can one afford a BIG ER bill or a big surgery should it be needed down the road, is one willing to deal with severe health issues if they crop up?*
> 
> ...


The bolded is honestly all I was really getting at.

Who would I be, with my mixed boys, to say never do that? 

I had so many worries with the mixed boys, as I've only had the purebreds prior, but they're great dogs. Issues here and there, sure. Schutzhund? Not hardly. :laugh: Good all around dogs, though. Tucker is some kind of zany WGSD/Lab mix and it is a true pleasure to have him in my life.

I didn't want to come across as supporting the random, let's breed the dog cuz it sounds like something we should do sort of thing, but mixes and byb types can be great dogs. Not necessarily what you'd seek out if you had a specific goal/sport in mind, but for a family dog -- could be a great thing. More of a crapshoot, perhaps, but as long as you're willing to stick it out, great. Better than a dog in a shelter or euth'd.

OP -- I'm just now seeing you're in Iowa, also! Are you by chance coming anywhere near Des Moines for your meet?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I really try to avoid these kinds of threads because they can spiral into a whole other world sometimes but OP here is my story and it is known on the board so i would appreciate anyone feeling the need to jump me about it, just dont okay. 

2005, we adopted Riley. A border collie/GSD mix. he's now 7 years old. This boy has been in and out of the vet pretty regularly for various things besides basic exams. He's expensive. His first 2 years alone with us, vet bills ran a pretty hefty chunk of change. Recently he sprained his knee just walking. There was no jumping, no running, no craziness. he simply went out the back door which doesnt have a step to go potty, screamed like someone was beating him and he refused to put weight on the leg. off to the vet. he's only recently come off of crate rest but last month alone, vet bills ran us more than we had immediately available so i had to rearrange the budget to pull extra money from other things. If i were to calculate the costs of having just him the last 7 years, he's cost us what we could have used to buy a new car outright. $15k. he is 7 years old!!!! We adopted him. 

2006, We adopted Zena. Zena is a PB patterned sable shepherd. she was about 4 or 5 years old when we brought her home. She has hip dysplacia, allergies and is prone to ear infections. She is living out her life with my father in law instead of me because we currently live on the east coast which is too humid for her ears and allergies. She had to have a $600 surgery to just drain her ears back in 2009. Since then, she's cost my inlaws an average of $500 a visit every other month for checkups and medications for pain and allergies. She was also adopted. 

2010, enter Shasta. 12 weeks old. I was browsing craigslist for the Raleigh area when we were stationed in NC. I came across a posting for GSD pup that was available. Sent a message to the guy and found out she was still available. 3 hour drive to see her. She and her sister were the only ones left. Her sister had been the one in the picture. I chose Shasta because she was the friendlier of the two. Her sister showed ZERO interest in anything or anyone. Paid $150 for her. Result of a VERY determined male. She just turned 2 years old in May. She's a fabulous dog. No health problems. She learns very quickly. She's my demo dog when i teach obedience classes. Very social but has that aloof quality i like about shepherds. Only downside, she doesnt alert when someone is at the door. She just runs to the door. No barking. nothing. I'm very proud of her. BUT i do plan to spend that $1200- $1500 on my next shepherd from a reputable breeder. 

Puppies are a shot in the dark no matter where you aquire them from. Got really lucky with Shasta and not so lucky with my adopted dogs but thats what happens. You take a chance. 

I have also learned a great deal in the 2 years i've been a member on this forum so I understand the "group think" of reputable breeder and why people get angry/upset about BYB dogs. I really do but theres nothing that can be done. The puppy is here and needs someone who will love it. The time to rant and rave has passed. the breeding could have been prevented but it wasnt.


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## ElviraCross (Jun 29, 2012)

about to hit the farmer's market but I'll be back to respond to some messages. 

I did get a picture of the puppy, This is Mila at about 6 weeks:








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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I've had dogs from both ends of the spectrum. My parents had a 1500 "reputable" breeder Golden Retriever that they had to put down at 9 months because her hips gave out (neither parents had any problems). Putting her down wasn't a cop out they had sent her out of province first for a 2500$ experimental surgey that unfortunately wasn't successful.

My first puppy (on my own) comes from an infamous back yard breeder and she's great. I was not as well informed as you are, I'll admit that I got caught up in the puppy cuteness and when she followed me as I was leaving, I didn't put too much thought of where she was coming from, she is a puppy and needed a home.

I haven't had any issues with her yet, but I'm prepared as I would be regardless of where she came from. It's all the luck of the draw as it is with anything. I know dogs are nothing like a pair of shoes but a 200$ pair of shoes is
going to be more reliable than a 20$ pair.

She may be a little more work, I don't know as she's my first, but she's excelling in obedience training, I'll chalk that up to the breed and with no knowledge of her background (ignorance on my part) is catching on well to schtutzhund. At first I was intimidated by the other puppies coming from very impressive backgrounds but Gaia has a solid drive once it was coxed out of her and is more than willing to work.

When it comes down to it make sure she's a good fit with yourself and your family and best of luck on whatever decision you make.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, the puppy already is named, so at this point I don't see any need for further discussion. 
Puppy's nose is supposed to be cold and wet. I would look into why it seems dry and a bit crusty.

Hope it's just because she had been sniffing in some dirt.

Good luck with her.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, the puppy already is named, so at this point I don't see any need for further discussion.
> Puppy's nose is supposed to be cold and wet. I would look into why it seems dry and a bit crusty.
> 
> Hope it's just because she had been sniffing in some dirt.
> ...


??? Dry and crusty ??? Must have been a deleted post you're referring to?

So puppy did come home with OP? But surely not at six weeks?

I'm confused.


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