# Growled at my mom while she was hugging her.



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

*So I wasn't there. But when my mom was going to put Zelda back in her crate in my room after letting her out for potty break and hang out, she said she hugged Zelda while Zelda was sitting on my bed, and she stood over her, put her arms around Zelda and she said she thought she growled at her.*

*Unsure what to think about this or the action i should take.*

Zelda has never growled at any family member before, but there is a first for everything.

Should I treat her with tougher NILIF as if she _did_ for sure growl at my mom, and involve my family in it more so? To stop this behavior before it gets worse and or continues.
Or should i act as if it didn't happen and only do something when i am sure she actually growled? 

Also how do i tell my 13 year old sister in better way, that Zelda is not a teddy bear, and she needs to be treated more like a dog, especially at being a year old and being a rowdy girl as a teenager! I've told this to her. I dont want to say that she could act aggressive (i dont think it will happen, but i think they test limits at this stage so you never know and if my mom is right, who says my little sister isn't next), because i dont want my sister having bad energy towards Zelda. I'm just worried one of these days Zelda is going to tell her "ENOUGH" in a mean way, i mean even a growl from Zelda would ruin her relationship (my little sister is very sensitive) I tell her dogs are NOT teddy bears! I don't think she gets it.. Suggestions?

*I'm trying not to get worked up over this as she may or may not have.. but i do NOT want Zelda getting naughty with my family. And if there is a possibility i want to nip it in the bud before it escalates. 

Thanks guys!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she was on the bed? well that could be a guarding my bed issue.

OR, I know she has bad hips, it could have been a "don't touch me I'm in pain issue".

Or some dogs are not comfortable being 'hugged'..

I would explain to your sister , that since zelda has bad hips, she is sometimes in pain, tho may not show it..so you have to be careful how you physically treat her.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Ya, i guess that is what my mom said.. 
Very good point Diane, it very well could have involved her hippies. 

She usually takes some hugging and "cuddling" but she is not a cuddly dog, she will walk away usually if you do this, unless she is tired and even then. 

Ok sounds good i will try and see if that resonates with her


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Hugging or standing over some dogs is seen as an aggressive action. Someone that has a close relationship to the dog might get a pass, but someone less familiar will get a growl or worse. 

How old is your dog now?


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Hugging or standing over some dogs is seen as an aggressive action. Someone that has a close relationship to the dog might get a pass, but someone less familiar will get a growl or worse.
> 
> How old is your dog now?


Agree they see it as trying too dominate! Bill


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Baliff, the dog is a year old.
The growl was the dog saying she doesn't want to be hugged. It was a warning. And I was a good thing that the dog didn't go directly to a bite.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I totally get that too, but she has never done anything like that or near it.
She is a bit over a year old.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

She is maturing.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

She probably never liked it but is getting older and more assertive. She has a little bit of "don't eff with me." 

If you want to do something about it make her associate hugging with good things. Give her a hug mark it with a yes like you would obedience or with a clicker if you insist on the extra equipment and then slip her some treats. Rinse and repeat. She will learn to love hugs.

It's a good exercise to do with new puppies. Sorta rush at them with arms held out excitedly saying their name or puuuuuuuppy! Mark it then give food immediately. They learn to deal with people approaching them like an idiot.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know, I really don't like this. I have had little kids come up behind my dog in a store while I was paying and hug the dog. I have my nieces that do not live with me hug my dogs and stare into their eyes -- I know that could be a challenge. And at the vet, sometimes a vet tech needs to wrap their arm around the dog's head and neck area so the vet or another tech can take blood or deal with something less than fun. 

If I had a one year old dog growling at a family member, then that dog would be OFF the bed and going through some major boot camp. I probably would not feed the dog anymore, and food would come from the person that was growled at, AFTER that person told the dog to sit, and stay. 

Young dogs should not be asserting themselves against family members, adult or children, or the household and all its members human and canine will need to learn some Behavior Modification. 

If your dog is on the bed growling at your mother, then whatever you are doing in the area of leadership and training is not working, and you need to get this in hand now, if you don't want a very sad outcome.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Baillif said:


> She probably never liked it but is getting older and more assertive. She has a little bit of "don't eff with me."
> 
> If you want to do something about it make her associate hugging with good things. Give her a hug mark it with a yes like you would obedience or with a clicker if you insist on the extra equipment and then slip her some treats. Rinse and repeat. She will learn to love hugs.
> 
> It's a good exercise to do with new puppies. Sorta rush at them with arms held out excitedly saying their name or puuuuuuuppy! Mark it then give food immediately. They learn to deal with people approaching them like an idiot.


I will try this to condition hugging to positive things.  



selzer said:


> Ya know, I really don't like this. I have had little kids come up behind my dog in a store while I was paying and hug the dog. I have my nieces that do not live with me hug my dogs and stare into their eyes -- I know that could be a challenge. And at the vet, sometimes a vet tech needs to wrap their arm around the dog's head and neck area so the vet or another tech can take blood or deal with something less than fun.
> 
> If I had a one year old dog growling at a family member, then that dog would be OFF the bed and *going through some major boot camp*. I probably would not feed the dog anymore, and food would come from the person that was growled at, AFTER that person told the dog to sit, and stay.
> 
> ...


What would your boot camp look like? How would you get it in hand?


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Sometimes i wonder if she is too advanced for me..
Because i feel like i'm trying a lot, and i keep trying to add new things. And I spend a lot of my time, dedication, commitment, love, energy and money into. I feel like i'm giving her 100%. And she has so many behavioral problems that i think are improving but not at a very fast rate.

If i made more money i would be seeing a trainer once a week, i dont think i can afford that though. But i think thats what we need, at the least.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

How knowledgeable is your mom about dogs? I know all three of my dogs (metro who is passed included) grumble when being hugged and cuddled is not a growl or anywhere aggressive, it's their version of the "ahhhhhhh" or a sigh when we big someone we love. Could it have been that? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

@selzer, free roaming little dudes that want to hug everything with a tail always make me nervous.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Thats what i hope and think it i could be, she is a very moany, groany, rooing, barky girl..

But i do not want to take away from the fact that she could have, as i asked my mom if she was positive it was a growl, and she was pretty sure. So i want to be sure i'm not just thinking what i want to think.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

My rescue girl makes growly sounding noises, mostly when she is getting love.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm not dealing with this problem. I have never dealt with a dog that had aggression toward a family member -- someone living in the house. So I think I am not qualified to give you the best advice. 

I would probably go to classes once a week. A trainer costs a lot more than sets of group-classes. I would work on the stuff in the class every day, to build the bond between me and the dog, and go to the class each week to work around distractions, other dogs and their owners.

But, dogs do respond differently to different types of leadership, just like we do. I don't do NILIF, but if I had a dog that did what your dog did, I would definitely read up on it, and start doing it. 

Maybe if I did do NILIF, and I had a dog act that way, I would find a different type of leadership to try and adjust -- whatever I am doing isn't working with this dog. 

Training too, if I was doing mostly positive reinforcement, and this happened, I might look into training that is more clear cut, moderate praise and with moderate corrections. If I was training using stiff commands, moderate praise and moderate corrections, and this happened, I would probably try a more positive training style. Positive NOT permissive. 

I would tell people not to hug the dog. 

I would hug the dog, daily. I would touch the ears, and the tail and the paws, and the toenails, every day. I would spend 20 minutes going over every inch of the dog every day, and end it with a hug. 

I don't know what you should do with your dog. One thing nice about group classes, is you can bring up problems with your dog that you are having, and they can give you advice because they have seen you interact with the dog. They might have better insight on what this dog/handler team needs to do. 

Management -- keep people from hugging the dog for now, other than you. 

Leadership -- closely determine what you are and aren't doing, if you are lax on NILIF, then clean it up, dog doesn't get to be up on the bed, period, because you are having problems. 

Training -- build the bond through training, set her up to succeed and praise her for it, build her confidence in you through training, fair training, proper rewards, fair/appropriate corrections if you are using them.

Exercise -- step it up. Morning and Evening, throw the ball if you don't want to walk or run. Tire her out in her body and her mind. 


Good luck with her.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

why force your dog to hug if it doesnt want to? not all dogs are made for petting and rubbing all over. if you want that you should've gotten a golden retriever instead of forcing your dog with multiple behavioral problems to do something it is uncomfortable with. not all dogs like their personal space invaded.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is true that GSDs have a range of sounds they use, and some of them can be quite grumbly, when there is no aggression present. 

I guess you can figure it this way: 
If it wasn't a growl and you do nothing about it = no change -- good
If it wasn't a growl and you do increase M, L, T, E = nothing bad -- good
If it was a growl and you do increase M, L, T, E = improvement? -- good
If it was a growl and you do nothing about it = Increased aggression/injury -- bad.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

strangers, children, can hug my dog, step over him. i think
a lot of how a dog reacts to strangers depends on their
training and socializing but a dog may not want to be hugged.



Baillif said:


> Hugging or standing over some dogs is seen as an aggressive action. Someone that has a close relationship to the dog might get a pass, but someone less familiar will get a growl or worse.
> 
> How old is your dog now?


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

erfunhouse said:


> How knowledgeable is your mom about dogs? I know all three of my dogs (metro who is passed included) grumble when being hugged and cuddled is not a growl or anywhere aggressive, it's their version of the "ahhhhhhh" or a sigh when we big someone we love. Could it have been that?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was going to say the same thing. Especially since she said she wasnt sure it was a growl. Usually u can be sure when a dog growls at you. Grumbling sometimes ur not to sure unless ur watching them. Dexter grumbles alot when some family members hug him. He also grumbles when hes stretching, wants to be next to u but u make him stay etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

boomer11 said:


> why force your dog to hug if it doesnt want to? not all dogs are made for petting and rubbing all over. if you want that you should've gotten a golden retriever instead of forcing your dog with multiple behavioral problems to do something it is uncomfortable with. not all dogs like their personal space invaded.


Because I have to be able to trim toenails, put ear ointment in the ears and clean them out, get blood drawn at the vets, stick a thermometer in the bum to find out how sick the dog is, and so forth. 

My dogs have to tolerate/accept ANY touch that I give them. I do hug my dogs. My dogs do not own personal space, sorry not if that means someone gets bit. I own the space. I own the dog, and I can touch them anywhere, and take anything out of their mouths, and put anything anywhere that needs to be there. I am sorry, but a dog that thinks they can decide what they will accept and won't accept, well, I suppose everything has its limits, but its limits had better not be a hug from its owner. Because that will probably be a dead dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

To a certain extent a dog is going to need its personal space invaded at some point. Either for grooming nail clipping or vet appointments. It is never a bad idea to condition them to handling. That said there is a right way and a wrong way to do that conditioning and it is something best taught in person by someone who knows how and not explained in text.

Selzer beating me to the punches tonight


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

selzer said:


> I'm not dealing with this problem. I have never dealt with a dog that had aggression toward a family member -- someone living in the house. So I think I am not qualified to give you the best advice.
> 
> I would probably go to classes once a week. A trainer costs a lot more than sets of group-classes. I would work on the stuff in the class every day, to build the bond between me and the dog, and go to the class each week to work around distractions, other dogs and their owners.
> 
> ...


I do primarily use praise and treats. I do corrections when she gets beyond a limit. I also have been descentizing her to such, i always play with her ears, i can open her mouth way open to check inside and pill her, i can play with her toes (sometimes she gets mouthy, but its been so much better since i started her with treat everytime i touched her toes and clipped nails), because of her anal gland problems i stand over her and lift up her tail and "check her anal glands" because thats a real life scenario that i must do and she just stands there now, before she would wiggle worm, i can pick her up, i think she gets that im trying to be affectionate when i kiss her face because im also giving her a massage at the same time, which she likes. But i'm going to have my mom feed her, i also have them do obediance with her when they can, which is rare- and they don't really care to 



boomer11 said:


> why force your dog to hug if it doesnt want to? not all dogs are made for petting and rubbing all over. if you want that you should've gotten a golden retriever instead of forcing your dog with multiple behavioral problems to do something it is uncomfortable with. not all dogs like their personal space invaded.


I get what your saying boomer, i think that i want to descenctize her because i want a dog who isn't going to growl or bite me because happened to sit next to her and rubbed up against her face or something, or she growled at me for getting on the bed with her and shoving her aside so i can lay down next to her. And since when did GSD's become not a rubbing and petting dog? I fell in love with the breed working at a shelter, i've met several GSD's who were so sweet and passed their temperament test with flying colors and LOVED love as well as being some of the most soulful and real dogs i've met.. Zelda IS very sweet on her own terms and is NOT a fan of being confined in arms.



selzer said:


> It is true that GSDs have a range of sounds they use, and some of them can be quite grumbly, when there is no aggression present.
> 
> I guess you can figure it this way:
> If it wasn't a growl and you do nothing about it = no change -- good
> ...


True Selzer, and ya im sure if i increased those it wouldnt do anything bad, good if anything. 



Msmaria said:


> I was going to say the same thing. Especially since she said she wasnt sure it was a growl. Usually u can be sure when a dog growls at you. Grumbling sometimes ur not to sure unless ur watching them. Dexter grumbles alot when some family members hug him. He also grumbles when hes stretching, wants to be next to u but u make him stay etc.


She did say she didn't feel scared of her, because if it was a growl you would think that she would have felt the different energy from her? Not sure.. But she is a grumbly girl, so it could have very well sounded just like a growl to my mom.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

big difference in conditioning a dog to accept clipping toenails and conditioning the dog to accept hugs and petting. hugging is just for your benefit. some nervy dogs just dont want to get that close every single day. 

also you dont need to condition a dog for anything at the vet. they have muzzles there for a reason.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

When my sister started working at the vet again, she see's my sister and even though there are "Scary" strangers in the room, she wags her tail and gets all excited and happy! So it changes her energy entirely and its less defensive and scared. So you can still can, but i do still muzzle her when i go there for her safety and everyone else.. and i bring treats.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

For me and if it were my own dogs.. Since your mom isn't sure/clear if it was a true growl.. I'd be inclined to let it pass, but keep an eye on it and be aware that there is that potential.. I wouldn't get all crazy and start doing things to the dog to make the situation worse or stress her out more than she needs to be... 

Some have mentioned her hips being bad.. I don't know how bad they are? Or what your doing for them.. Or how much exercise she can have or do..

I would however not allow her on the bed or any furniture for now.. And up her obedience training..


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I see an almost perfect storm for a dog to get it's proverbial knickers in a wad with this situation.

First, a 2-ish y/o German that's making sense of the social makeup and figuring out her place with the mind of an adult dog.

Second, possible pain involved.

Third, a gross dominance display taking place in a place that normally (my guess) allows for slack pack behavior. My dogs see the bed as place to unwind and relax. Mine give me a little "hey, cut it out" growl if I roll half over them to smack the snooze button some mornings(well, evenings for me). It's a communication growl and does not mean anything other than I have vocal dogs.

Seeing that all your mom got was a growl or something like a growl I'd be fairly pleased. I would still work on the what sounds to me like resource guarding. Make the bed a treat, only allow her on it when you are around. I've trained mine to stay off the bed when I am not in the room. My female will jump up without my que still and I'm working on it, my male will wait until I tell him it's time for bed. It's a simple "bed is clear", he'll hop up and snuggle/gnaw/burrow for awhile and then either go to sleep or jet off to his bed(in the room).


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

VTGirlT said:


> *she thought she growled at her.*


My boy is a vocal boy. He moans and groans and humpfs all the time. He isn't a touchy-feely dog. When we hug him, he will groan and moan. When I tell him "Dead Dog" he'll moan and humpf and flop over. It's funny, but it wasn't part of the trick when it was trained. It's just him. 

There is a HUGE difference between the groans and a proper growl - which he has never directed as either one of us.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I only ever heard my old guy growl for real a handful of times. I trusted that dog absolutely, as in I'd strap a bloody steak to my throat and let him at it. He was trustworthy as I could imagine. But when he did the true "I'm a hard a** P.O.ed dog and I'm coming to get you" it scared me. Possibly because I knew that growl was the real deal and that tone and timbre scratched at primal bits of my brain. Never directed at me, thank goodness.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

My little non-GSD mix came from the shelter with a lot of issues. I practiced mind games with him. He has turned into an awesome little dog. You can practice some or all of the steps. Here is the link. 

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Because I have to be able to trim toenails, put ear ointment in the ears and clean them out, get blood drawn at the vets, stick a thermometer in the bum to find out how sick the dog is, and so forth.
> 
> My dogs have to tolerate/accept ANY touch that I give them. I do hug my dogs. My dogs do not own personal space, sorry not if that means someone gets bit. I own the space. I own the dog, and I can touch them anywhere, and take anything out of their mouths, and put anything anywhere that needs to be there. I am sorry, but a dog that thinks they can decide what they will accept and won't accept, well, I suppose everything has its limits, but its limits had better not be a hug from its owner. Because that will probably be a dead dog.


I have had a GSD for 6 years now and don't consider myself and expert by any means. Bully breeds are my background and my GSD was a whole different world of experiance, what your describing is what I can do with my guy without exception.

The question is about "other people" family members etc. After alot of work my GSD is safe in public and with other dogs in public, still suspicious of folks in the home but well behaved. 

It was years before I allowed a stranger to pet him but after I was comfortable and could read him well, I noticed he really wasn't concerned about strangers at all.

I used a soft muzzle on my guy at home for a while around friends and company until I was comfortable knowing how my dog would react and I head good control over him.

Never used it on walks or needed it at the vet office it kept people safe and my better half 
felt more comfortable with him around people with the soft muzzle.

I would muzzle the dog around "company" the dog is telling you he has "issues" with personal space you'll have much bigger problems if he actually bites someone. Just don't give him the chance. 

And continue working with him.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

selzer said:


> Because I have to be able to trim toenails, put ear ointment in the ears and clean them out, get blood drawn at the vets, stick a thermometer in the bum to find out how sick the dog is, and so forth.
> 
> My dogs have to tolerate/accept ANY touch that I give them. I do hug my dogs. My dogs do not own personal space, sorry not if that means someone gets bit. I own the space. I own the dog, and I can touch them anywhere, and take anything out of their mouths, and put anything anywhere that needs to be there. I am sorry, but a dog that thinks they can decide what they will accept and won't accept, well, I suppose everything has its limits, but its limits had better not be a hug from its owner. Because that will probably be a dead dog.


Well said! You can avoid a ton of possible problems by teaching your dog that they do not get to decide that they own personal space and have the right to growl at somebody for "invading" it. Just imagine how many dogs were put down because they bit somebody for invading their personal space!


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

G-burg said:


> For me and if it were my own dogs.. Since your mom isn't sure/clear if it was a true growl.. I'd be inclined to let it pass, but keep an eye on it and be aware that there is that potential.. I wouldn't get all crazy and start doing things to the dog to make the situation worse or stress her out more than she needs to be...
> 
> Some have mentioned her hips being bad.. I don't know how bad they are? Or what your doing for them.. Or how much exercise she can have or do..
> 
> I would however *not allow her on the bed or any furniture* for now.. And up her obedience training..


Her hips are not very great.. I do not let her run a whole lot, she is on Cosequin DS, fishoil and pain/inflammatory. 
Thats what im going to do and i told my family the same, and if she does do it tell her OFF, only do it two times before making her go off. Which she does go off on the first try usually, so it shouldn't be a problem. And she will get it she is a smart girl. 



brembo said:


> I see an almost perfect storm for a dog to get it's proverbial knickers in a wad with this situation.
> 
> First, a 2-ish y/o German that's making sense of the social makeup and figuring out her place with the mind of an adult dog.
> 
> ...


Where is the dominance display? Did you mean me or her? I didn't quite get that part. Yes, i am glad she is good at communicating she has lots of calming signals and warnings that she uses. I do find it interesting how people differ on the whole growling, curling lip, warnings. Some people say they are unacceptable to ever use others say its just communication. Thanks for your reply 



Lilie said:


> My boy is a vocal boy. He moans and groans and humpfs all the time. He isn't a touchy-feely dog. When we hug him, he will groan and moan. When I tell him "Dead Dog" he'll moan and humpf and flop over. It's funny, but it wasn't part of the trick when it was trained. It's just him.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between the groans and a proper growl - which he has never directed as either one of us.


I agree thats why i wanted to be clear, and she is positive now that she growled at her. I want to believe that she didn't and she was just being Zelda vocal, moany/groans, whiney, rooey girl. But she is a year old and she could have.



brembo said:


> I only ever heard my old guy growl for real a handful of times. I trusted that dog absolutely, as in I'd strap a bloody steak to my throat and let him at it. He was trustworthy as I could imagine. But when he did the true "I'm a hard a** P.O.ed dog and I'm coming to get you" it scared me. Possibly because I knew that growl was the real deal and that tone and timbre scratched at primal bits of my brain. Never directed at me, thank goodness.


Well she has never been directing true aggression to me. And i am not fearful of her at all, i think even if she bit me, i wouldn't be scared of her.  



Stevenzachsmom said:


> My little non-GSD mix came from the shelter with a lot of issues. I practiced mind games with him. He has turned into an awesome little dog. You can practice some or all of the steps. Here is the link.
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


Thanks for the link, i actually did buy a book on mind games but any more resource is wonderful! thanks 



Chip18 said:


> I have had a GSD for 6 years now and don't consider myself and expert by any means. Bully breeds are my background and my GSD was a whole different world of experiance, what your describing is what I can do with my guy without exception.
> 
> The question is about "other people" family members etc. After alot of work my GSD is safe in public and with other dogs in public, still suspicious of folks in the home but well behaved.
> 
> ...


And i will, this girl is not being put down! If i have to be homeless with her i will. I am fully dedicated to her when im in the right state of mind lol 



Thanks for all the replies guys, i feel better about the situation and am going to step up my game more and have more ideas and resources now!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

selzer said:


> Because I have to be able to trim toenails, put ear ointment in the ears and clean them out, get blood drawn at the vets, stick a thermometer in the bum to find out how sick the dog is, and so forth.
> 
> My dogs have to tolerate/accept ANY touch that I give them. I do hug my dogs. My dogs do not own personal space, sorry not if that means someone gets bit. I own the space. I own the dog, and I can touch them anywhere, and take anything out of their mouths, and put anything anywhere that needs to be there. I am sorry, but a dog that thinks they can decide what they will accept and won't accept, well, I suppose everything has its limits, but its limits had better not be a hug from its owner. Because that will probably be a dead dog.


 Totally agree here. I have never understood why people think its okay for the dog to decide where it goes, who touches it, when it can be touched, etc. The dog is living in my home, my rules, my everything. I realize lots of folks don't agree about this, but I can take my dog to the vet, they can do whatever needs to be done, no muzzles, anyone can greet my dog, have her do tricks, play with her etc. I would rather have a safe reliable dog with no issues, even if she doesn't fit the "typical" GSD, she loves everyone.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

VTGirtT-

Hugging a dog is a pronounced dominance(or can be) display. Anything regarding the neck area has that potential. I imagined your mom leaning over and wrapping arms around, to a good percentage of dogs that's pretty strong body language. You can probably get away with it all day long and Zelda could care less, someone not as closely bonded might not. 

Generally speaking dogs don't like hugs. Hugs are a primate thing, mutual trust and whatnot. If I had to pick the action that most closely resembles a hug(primate perspective) to a dogs "hug" it would rolling over and begging for a belly rub or burying their head in your armpit or lap.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wyominggrandma said:


> Totally agree here. I have never understood why people think its okay for the dog to decide where it goes, who touches it, when it can be touched, etc. The dog is living in my home, my rules, my everything. I realize lots of folks don't agree about this, but I can take my dog to the vet, they can do whatever needs to be done, no muzzles, anyone can greet my dog, have her do tricks, play with her etc. I would rather have a safe reliable dog with no issues, even if she doesn't fit the "typical" GSD, she loves everyone.


That certainly does not sound "typical" to me? My Rocky is safe around people and I worked hard to achieve that, He's pretty much indifferent to people and that was good enough for me,


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

brembo said:


> VTGirtT-
> 
> Hugging a dog is a pronounced dominance(or can be) display. Anything regarding the neck area has that potential. I imagined your mom leaning over and wrapping arms around, to a good percentage of dogs that's pretty strong body language. You can probably get away with it all day long and Zelda could care less, someone not as closely bonded might not.
> 
> Generally speaking dogs don't like hugs. Hugs are a primate thing, mutual trust and whatnot. If I had to pick the action that most closely resembles a hug(primate perspective) to a dogs "hug" it would rolling over and begging for a belly rub or burying their head in your armpit or lap.


If you "want "a huggie working dog...get a "Boxer" my Struddell never saw someone she didn't like!
She was a dog that would walk off with anyone!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Sometimes people expect to much from a dog, they are dogs, they are not humans and there are some dogs that just do not like certain things. Whether it's genetics, pain issues, upbringing, no matter the reason, not 'every' dog is going to accept what 'we' (general we) as owners expect them to.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sometimes people expect to much from a dog, they are dogs, they are not humans and there are some dogs that just do not like certain things. Whether it's genetics, pain issues, upbringing, no matter the reason, not 'every' dog is going to accept what 'we' (general we) as owners expect them to.


Pretty much this. She's still at the age you could condition her to like or at least tolerate hugging or other types of handling from close relatives but it should be done carefully.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sometimes people expect to much from a dog, they are dogs, they are not humans and there are some dogs that just do not like certain things. Whether it's genetics, pain issues, upbringing, no matter the reason, not 'every' dog is going to accept what 'we' (general we) as owners expect them to.


What a dog likes, and how a dog reacts to what is likes or dislikes are two different things. A dog that reacts to a hug from a family member, one who lives in the house with the dog, at 1 year old with a growl, is likely to react in other ways, that in our society is not going to fly. 

If this isn't handled properly, and allowed to continue -- if it was a true growl, and not just a grumbly purr of sorts, then this dog is very likely to do something that will further damage the reputation of GSDs. 

Most bites are not delivered to strangers. Most bites are delivered to family members, and often children. This puppy is up on the bed, growling at one of the adults in the home. That just doesn't sound good. 

A dog doesn't have to rub up against you like a cat until you hug it. But if you do hug a dog, it can't give you a warning that means, "if you don't cut that crap out, I am going to bite your face!" 

And I am not suggesting we punish the warning. But we need to get to the bottom of the behavior that makes a meer pup think it can defend its personal space against a human member of the family. 

And, you can take a dog that is stand-offish, who doesn't really care for pets or hugs, or human touch, and condition that dog to not only accept it, but to look for it. Cujo was like that. Mom had to teach that dog to accept pets, and after a while, he would come in every evening to her for his pets. Having a dog that isn't affectionate, does not mean you have a dog forever that isn't affectionate. It doesn't have to mean that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I do agree a dog living with a family should allow just about 'anything' and 'everything' done to it.

However, since the majority of bites ARE family members, there's something either wrong with the dog's core, training, or just plain doesn't like being hugged. 

How many dogs don't like their nails clipped? and by family members? how many dogs do we see on here that don't like their food messed with? and by family members?

Dogs are dogs, I don't want to compare them to people, but we , as people don't like certain things, some may be tolerant of it, others may not. 

I don't want someone messing with my food..My defense is to tell someone to back off..A dogs defense is to growl/sneer/possibly bite. If they could "talk" maybe they'd tell us


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's my take on it, after dealing with a lot of "aggressive" dogs.

Growls are communication and not aggression. A dog will growl when it is uncomfortable with a situation. If you correct the growl, it will have taken that as you not understanding the communication and may up the ante next time. The more you correct, the less the dog will growl, but the less it will trust you as well. It feels you arent listening and may decide to nip or bite to get the message to you in a way you might understand.

The proper thing to do is to is to respect the dog and back off, try to understand what it is that is making the dog uncomfortable and either counter condition the dog, or avoid the situation in the future.

I would have Mom incrementally marker train the dog to like hugs. Pretty simple. If it doesn't work, Mom doesn't get to hug the dog. 

I have an entirely different set of rules for the dog with me than with anyone else. I am the one that trims nails, inserts the thermometer, dresses wounds, cleans painful ears and digs around in their mouth. I know that my dog trusts me, and I don't expect it to have that same relationship with anyone else. 

I have a 3 yo granddaughter that is best buddies with my CC. When she gets too in his face or romps too hard on him, he lets her know with a little growl. The granddaughter is trained to leave him alone if he does this. This is how dogs communicate and is not aggression.

So many dogs end up in the pound because people don't listen to them. A growl is dog talk, as well as a nip. True aggression is bloody and violent. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but IME it is after many warnings that just went ignored. Listen to the dog, and then show it how you expect it to behave. If it doesn't trust someone that you feel it should, it is your job to foster that in the dog, not the dog's job to just work it out.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup. I was playing with a dog the other day that would roar growl at me a lot. Someone who didn't know the breed would be like oh my he's aggressive. Some dogs are expressive and vocal. If they don't like something they tell you. If they really like a game they'll growl at you anyway. I've had them redirect on my arm for being corrected in a mouthy way (and sometimes somewhat more toothy way. Read: he bit me and drew blood lol). It isn't something that is necessarily a huge red flag. Sometimes it's a culture clash between how we expect dogs should be and how they really are.

So many people out there say stuff like oh my dog would never bite me or a family member I'd trust him with my newborn baby etc. its a delusion. They all bite at some point, they all have a threshold that when passed causes them to snap. Many never reach that point. Some do. There are literally millions of dog bites reported in the US every year. People are the same way when you really think about it. The difference is ritualized aggression is apart of dog DNA. That's how they resolve their disagreements.

Gsds are not teddy bears meant for cuddling and 100 percent kid safety. They are more like knives or scissors. They have real danger potential. Handled safely you only get cut every so often maybe never. Get careless or do something stupid and it's really just a matter of time before someone gets hurt. It isn't just a GSD thing, Labradors lead the way in dog bites reported every year.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Yup. I was playing with a dog the other day that would roar growl at me a lot. Someone who didn't know the breed would be like oh my he's aggressive. Some dogs are expressive and vocal. If they don't like something they tell you. If they really like a game they'll growl at you anyway. I've had them redirect on my arm for being corrected in a mouthy way (and sometimes somewhat more toothy way. Read: he bit me and drew blood lol). It isn't something that is necessarily a huge red flag. Sometimes it's a culture clash between how we expect dogs should be and how they really are.
> 
> So many people out there say stuff like oh my dog would never bite me or a family member I'd trust him with my newborn baby etc. its a delusion. They all bite at some point, they all have a threshold that when passed causes them to snap. Many never reach that point. Some do. There are literally millions of dog bites reported in the US every year. People are the same way when you really think about it. The difference is ritualized aggression is apart of dog DNA. That's how they resolve their disagreements.
> 
> Gsds are not teddy bears meant for cuddling and 100 percent kid safety. They are more like knives or scissors. They have real danger potential. Handled safely you only get cut every so often maybe never. Get careless or do something stupid and it's really just a matter of time before someone gets hurt. It isn't just a GSD thing, Labradors lead the way in dog bites reported every year.


Was it a Rottie?

Lots of vocal Rottweilers. I love 'em 

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

An ot vitosha malinois. The tug games involve a lot of roaring. He roars when bringing it back then slams you with it. He roars while trying to pull it out of your hand, and if you try to wrench it away from him he roars then too. I need to get video of it at some point he's a really fun dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Yup. I was playing with a dog the other day that would roar growl at me a lot. Someone who didn't know the breed would be like oh my he's aggressive. Some dogs are expressive and vocal. If they don't like something they tell you. If they really like a game they'll growl at you anyway. I've had them redirect on my arm for being corrected in a mouthy way (and sometimes somewhat more toothy way. Read: he bit me and drew blood lol). It isn't something that is necessarily a huge red flag. Sometimes it's a culture clash between how we expect dogs should be and how they really are.
> 
> *So many people out there say stuff like oh my dog would never bite me or a family member I'd trust him with my newborn baby etc. its a delusion. They all bite at some point, they all have a threshold that when passed causes them to snap.* Many never reach that point. Some do. There are literally millions of dog bites reported in the US every year. People are the same way when you really think about it. The difference is ritualized aggression is apart of dog DNA. That's how they resolve their disagreements.
> 
> Gsds are not teddy bears meant for cuddling and 100 percent kid safety. They are more like knives or scissors. They have real danger potential. Handled safely you only get cut every so often maybe never. Get careless or do something stupid and it's really just a matter of time before someone gets hurt. It isn't just a GSD thing, Labradors lead the way in dog bites reported every year.


I'm the odd person out I guess. 

I took my eight year old bitch with me yesterday to babysit the 7-year-olds for two days. She's never spent the night away from home before. The little girls were so excited, we went to take her with us to the park, and the one kid climbed into the crate with her to put the leash on. 

I am thinking, those GSD people on the site would flip out. It could be so dangerous. But it isn't not with Babs. Analisa announced today, Babs would NEVER bite her. I have to agree. This morning when I walked her before the kids got up, I fell on the ice, and nearly landed on her, she whined, but no aggression. Later this morning when I took them to the park, I stepped on her, and she yelled -- a hurt yell, not a growl or a snap -- and I had HURT her. I don't know where her threshold is, but I feel darn confident with her around the little girls, and I have zero worries for me. The only way Babs will stick a tooth in me is if another dog gets into a row with her, and she is aiming for the other dog, and I get in the way. 

I have held her head while the vet and a tech delivered a stuck puppy from her. This dog isn't going to bite me any time soon. And as careful she is with the girls, I know she isn't going to bite them either. 

I understand that they are not all the same, but I don't think people should accept an over-grown puppy asserting itself against a family member. Again, I never said to correct the growl. But I would correct the situation where the dog thought is was hotter potatoes that Mom. I also think that if this situation is left alone, the dog is likely to increase in negative behaviors, and eventually, someone might get hurt.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The thing is, this dog might not be challenging. It may be uncomfortable in the situation. No hot potatoes.

This would require a different approach.

David Winners


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> The thing is, this dog might not be challenging. It may be uncomfortable in the situation. No hot potatoes.
> 
> This would require a different approach.
> 
> David Winners


Agree here also but it is a situation that needs to be addressed. I wasn't there and neither was the OP. But this is a GSD not a Rottie, Rotties seem to growl about everything!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Baillif said:


> The tug games involve a lot of roaring. He roars when bringing it back then slams you with it. He roars while trying to pull it out of your hand, and if you try to wrench it away from him he roars then too. I need to get video of it at some point he's a really fun dog.


LOL. This sounds exactly like my working Labrador. She roars when tugging, makes so much noise when playing it's hilarious. Is the same way when I putzing with her at home. It can put some people off, if they don't know her. But you take the cues from her body language. She is relaxed the whole time. 

When my sister adopted her first GSD of her own,( she had my retired SAR dog for a while), she went through lots of growing pains and learning how to deal with what her new dog was giving her. She called me up and said her dog had growled at her when she tried to snuggle with him. I told her to stop snuggling with him until I could get down there. Went down, dog was sleeping on the couch. I sat next to him and wrapped him in a big hug. He made a lot if noise. But no tension, no guardedness, just talk. And lots of it. He was not being aggressive, he just objected to the hugging. And was vocal about it. Nothing in the way he acted, aside from the noise concerned me. We have learned that he is just vocal. He "accepts" the hugs. But does not enjoy them. He has never struck out. My sister can do anything to that dog, he just has an opinion about it. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> The thing is, this dog might not be challenging. It may be uncomfortable in the situation. No hot potatoes.
> 
> This would require a different approach.
> 
> David Winners


If the dog is uncomfortable in the situation, that it is that much more important that the reason the dog did what he did is dealt with. A dog who is _uncomfortable_ /not confident/ fearful/ anxious -- a whole lot MORE likely to bite. 

Either way, it needs to be dealt with. And, NILIF, can be helpful to an uncomfortable dog too. I mean, lets relate dogs to people just because it's fun. A person who doesn't know, is uncertain what they are supposed to do, is uncomfortable. I person with clear goals and an agenda to meet them, is more comfortable. 

So making the leadership clear, should make an uncomfortable dog more comfortable. 

Upping the training, will increase the bond and build confidence -- if it is good training. Building confidence will make a less-comfortable dog more comfortable. 

Increasing the management -- Mom and no one other than the OP is hugging the dog at this point, will decrease the likelihood of the dog doing something very unfortunate. It will make the dog more comfortable in the short run. Once the dog seems more confident over all, maybe other family members will be able to hug the dog.

Sometimes the reasons are different, but many of the same types of dealing with the problem will actually work. And this is why in one post, I said, if you are doing this -- do that, and vice-versa. If you are using +R, go with training that has some corrections. If you are using corrections, go with training that is mostly +R. If you have a dog that is full of himself, maybe a different approach to training is warranted. If you have a dog that is _uncomfortable_, AKA scared, then even minor corrections may reduce this dog's ability to move forward, gain trust, gain confidence.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> If the dog is uncomfortable in the situation, that it is that much more important that the reason the dog did what he did is dealt with. A dog who is _uncomfortable_ /not confident/ fearful/ anxious -- a whole lot MORE likely to bite.
> 
> Either way, it needs to be dealt with. And, NILIF, can be helpful to an uncomfortable dog too. I mean, lets relate dogs to people just because it's fun. A person who doesn't know, is uncertain what they are supposed to do, is uncomfortable. I person with clear goals and an agenda to meet them, is more comfortable.
> 
> ...


I agree with all this. The first thing I do with most behavioral issues is establish leadership and exercise programs, sometimes before I ever see the dog. Training doesn't start until the leadership programs have been in place for a week or 2. 

I wasn't debating the value of NILIF, exercise or dog appropriate training.

David Winners


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, is Zelda taking Reconcile?

"It is important to understand that whenever an anti-anxiety medication is used, the phenomenon of disinhibition is possible. What this means is that an animal’s inhibitions about aggressive behavior may be reduced when his or her anxiety over the consequences of such behavior is removed. An animal that was not previously aggressive could potentially become aggressive."
01 Fluoxetine (Reconcile, Prozac) - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

I know you've been concerned about her behavior for a while now. Growling at your mom (lets's say it really was a growl, just to be safe) can't be ignored. Please give us an update on how things are going, because we all want to help, and are concerned.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Zelda has not done anything abnormal since. My mom is not hugging her at this point. I am hugging her while treating her for short periods. I do have my family scratch her since she enjoys this a lot!

I am am currently teaching her to hand target, which should be helpful. I do obedience every day with her. And do as much exercise as i can and as her hips can let her. (i have her on pain herbals now for her hips that my vet gave me)

I have not been giving her reconcile, as my vet and i decided otherwise as just for now.. And i keep going back and forth. Because I have been told i should because it will help her anxiety in general as well as SA, but i am worried for adverse affects including health (which i would do blood work) and everyone has their opinion on that.

I also want to say i really am thankful for all the support and advice. I'm a complete novice when it comes to dogs/GSD's/raising up dogs.. and i happen to have this advance dog.. 
I do find it quite interesting how people are all different in their beliefs on what is acceptable for their dogs to do. Some people think growling is not okay, others only in certain circumstances, others its communication- and its not just on here, but at work as well. My manager says she wishes her dogs wouldn't be on the bed with her because they take up all the space, i said why dont you just tell them to move over, and she said its because they would growl at her. And she acted like it was completely normal. Where as my dog wouldn't be allowed on the bed if she growled at me, while i was moving her over.. she would loose the privilege. 

I am concerned that my current living situation, my financial situation and my lack of experience with advance dogs is holding her back and also, for lack of better words, "ruining her." Which is the last thing i want to do obviously since she is very dear to my heart.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

VTGirlT; said:


> I am concerned that my current living situation, my financial situation and my lack of experience with advance dogs is holding her back and also, for lack of better words, "ruining her." Which is the last thing i want to do obviously since she is very dear to my heart.


I think this with every dog. It's normal. The number of mistakes I made with my first GSD astound me. I did not make the same mistakes with my next dog, I made all new ones. 




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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I see everything as an attempt to be upgraded in the pack. Zelda growled at your mum not because she was hugging her, but because *Zelda thought that* *mum is going to push her down* into her crate (the level lower than your bed). The tendency to become dominant can be observed in different ways our dogs exibit it. Dogs pay a very special attention to the places they sleep in, if Zelda minds you a leader of the pack, then she tried to occupy your space in your absence. Your bed in wider, softer, higher and altogether more comfortable than her crate, nobody would fool her - the leader occupies the best! If you moved to sleep in a different room, the story would repeat in that room and she would guard that which belongs to you in your absence. Zelda doesn't know that your mother is your mother, for Zelda is is just another member of the pack. But, she should have a reason to behave like that. It is often happens in families that strong domineering daughters have soft and submissive mothers. your dog might observed this and, following her natural instincts just tries to copy you, but in her doggy way. As long as you have love, respect and harmony in your family, you should worry about nothing. It was just a little sparkle of something natural in your dog. But, if it were shouts, cries, high pitched voices, arguments on the daily basis - Zelda would bite.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> I see everything as an attempt to be upgraded in the pack. Zelda growled at your mum not because she was hugging her, but because *Zelda thought that* *mum is going to push her down* into her crate (the level lower than your bed). The tendency to become dominant can be observed in different ways our dogs exibit it. Dogs pay a very special attention to the places they sleep in, if Zelda minds you a leader of the pack, then she tried to occupy your space in your absence. Your bed in wider, softer, higher and altogether more comfortable than her crate, nobody would fool her - the leader occupies the best! If you moved to sleep in a different room, the story would repeat in that room and she would guard that which belongs to you in your absence. Zelda doesn't know that your mother is your mother, for Zelda is is just another member of the pack. But, she should have a reason to behave like that. It is often happens in families that strong domineering daughters have soft and submissive mothers. your dog might observed this and, following her natural instincts just tries to copy you, but in her doggy way. As long as you have love, respect and harmony in your family, you should worry about nothing. It was just a little sparkle of something natural in your dog. But, if it were shouts, cries, high pitched voices, arguments on the daily basis - Zelda would bite.


What research do you base these opinions on?

David Winners


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I think this with every dog. It's normal. The number of mistakes I made with my first GSD astound me. I did not make the same mistakes with my next dog, I made all new ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well...yeah!:blush:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I think this with every dog. It's normal. The number of mistakes I made with my first GSD astound me. I did not make the same mistakes with my next dog, I made all new ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As long as nobody gets hurt your doing fine! That's job one and your doing it!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

VTGirlT said:


> I have not been giving her reconcile, as my vet and i decided otherwise as just for now.. And i keep going back and forth. Because I have been told i should because it will help her anxiety in general as well as SA, but i am worried for adverse affects including health (which i would do blood work) and everyone has their opinion on that.


Well for another opinion on that issue...if it is a behavioral issue drugs would just mask it, That could be worst in the long run, so I'm with your vet!




VTGirlT said:


> I also want to say i really am thankful for all the support and advice. I'm a complete novice when it comes to dogs/GSD's/raising up dogs.. and i happen to have this advance dog..


Thank you from the newbies to the GSD's! 

I have raised dogs BullMastiff/Pitts Mixes, Boxer"mixes and Boxers. And I stumbled unto Rocky(GSD) when he was 7 months old and it was a whole nother level of dog! I didn't reach out and I got to discover:

Male Dominate Aggression...Two Dominate Male dogs + 7 month old puppy = problems in 18 24 months if you get it wrong...I did! 
3 dogs are a pack, 
you can't pry a GSD's mouth open with your fingers
they use long needles at the emergency clinic to stitch your fingers
The proper way to breakup a dog fight
Sit /stay/ down/ good on leash/Don't leave the yard/Don't bolt out the door...doesn't make you a pack leader
Which dog goes out the door first...matters...note it was always Gunther!
Nobody beats up my dogs... not even my dogs!
Not every dog likes company
How to use a muzzel
The phrase "I'd rather you didn't pet my dog" (That was hard for a Boxer guy)!
The leerburgh site!
So six years with a GSD now and he is a happy well adjusted boy and safe around people and other dogs but I had to learn the hard hard way. (No dog parks)(still not thrilled with company)
So to me yes,yes they are a very advanced dog!







VTGirlT said:


> I do find it quite interesting how people are all different in their beliefs on what is acceptable for their dogs to do. Some people think growling is not okay, others only in certain circumstances, others its communication- and its not just on here, but at work as well. My manager says she wishes her dogs wouldn't be on the bed with her because they take up all the space, i said why dont you just tell them to move over, and she said its because they would growl at her. And she acted like it was completely normal. Where as my dog wouldn't be allowed on the bed if she growled at me, while i was moving her over.. she would loose the privilege.


 Well some breeds are vocal rotties grumble, growl about everything, Gunther our Bull Mas/Mix was a grumble butt sleeper didn't like to be bumped.
I have to say thou that Rocky my GSD never growls...unless he means business! Our cats hear it if they wander by his bowel when they eat, he'll low growl, I'll shout at the cats then say Rocky and he goes back to eating. He's cat proof ,they jump over him sleep with him and live together 24/7 but the food bowel is his limit with them, I can pick his bowel up at will no issues and he has never growl at me or the better half.

So yeah I have to say that a growl from these guys means business but they are saying...I have an issue. It's your job to figure out what it is. 




VTGirlT said:


> I am concerned that my current living situation, my financial situation and my lack of experience with advance dogs is holding her back and also, for lack of better words, "ruining her." Which is the last thing i want to do obviously since she is very dear to my heart.


Well you just have to relax keep everybody safe and think things through you can't do anything in a panic. I had to learn stuff the hard way but it looks like you don't have to!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks for the update  It sounds like things are going well. I remember you mentioned medicating, that's why I brought it up. And don't worry, I think many of us "ruined" our first dogs. At least in hindsight we did, because we were just doing what we thought was right at the time - which might not be how we're raising our current dogs. But we loved them and we did our best. That's what it sounds like with you and Zelda too.


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