# Question about a particularly aggressive bite from a 14 week old pup



## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

This one!










We have taught him bit inhibition since he was 8 weeks old. He is normally VERY good at it. We say "easy" when he comes to bite and he doesn't bite hard.

He's teething now, and when he gets excited he sometimes forgets.

Last night he bit my girlfriend really hard, punctured her skin in three places, and scared her pretty bad. She was playing with him. He got really excited, and then she was ready to quit and stopped responding to him bringing the ball. He wasn't having it and insisted several times via nips that he wanted to continue. I've never scruffed and submitted him, but my emotions got the best of me this time unfortunately. While he still had her hand in his mouth I leaped from the couch and yelled "No" and scruffed him. He whelped and wasn't happy about it. In hindsight, I feel bad that I did that. 

This particular bite was more an aggressive bite than an "I want to play" bite. He's just about 38-45 lbs now and 14 weeks roughly, so I'm concerned that if I don't show him that isn't acceptable with some force it will continue. When he is a 100 lb dog, which he's on track to be he will really hurt her.



**EDIT** He is also a singleton from a first time bred dame. Having no brothers and sisters probably doesn't help the biting, but he does VERY well with bite inhibition training. We practice it every second of the day. I've even bitten him back when he was a younger pup (10 weeks or so) and I play with him like a dog would. We're enrolling him in puppy training in two weeks at 16 weeks. 

What do you guys think of this?

Thank you!


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I can only say that I've never used my hands to play with any puppy I've had. I've always used toys. I don't want the dog biting even if they are play bites, while we are playing.

I don't mind if the puppy (Lisl in this case) is mouthing my hands with slight pressure while we are just spending time petting or brushing her. She knows when it's too hard and I have to remind her with a little yelp, or saying 'no biting' firmly to her.

The easiest way to get hurt playing with a puppy is using your hands as another dog would use it's mouth and/or paws. An excited puppy and moving jaws with sharp puppy teeth is an accident waiting to happen, as you found out.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't do it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I wouldn't say at 14 weeks he was being "vicious' about it..As you said, he was getting amped up, and probably didn't like ending the "game" , so he latched on.. 
Teething can also 'hurt'.

I probably would have scruffed him myself, I would also start teaching a good 'leave it', he puts his mouth on a human, work on him 'leaving it'..redirect.

I think you mentioned he's doing really well otherwise, so I wouldn't worry about this incident to much (even tho it sounds like your GF got nailed good, puppy teeth are brutal) 

He's a cutie by the way


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It was not an aggressive bite at that age. It was an I want to play bite, but the puppy is getting older and his jaws are getting stronger. Do not let him bite your hands if you can help it. Redirect to toys.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

That certainly wasn't an "aggressive bite"... just normal puppy play/teething. Yes, they can draw blood. Just keep on with the bite inhibition/redirection. Scruffing a dog is fine; he may act dramatic and cry but it really isn't painful.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> I can only say that I've never used my hands to play with any puppy I've had. I've always used toys. I don't want the dog biting even if they are play bites, while we are playing.
> 
> I don't mind if the puppy (Lisl in this case) is mouthing my hands with slight pressure while we are just spending time petting or brushing her. She knows when it's too hard and I have to remind her with a little yelp, or saying 'no biting' firmly to her.
> 
> ...


Hi, I'm sorry I should have been clear. She was playing with a toy. I never let him just bite us for fun.

She stopped trying to get him to drop the toy so she could throw it again, and he didn't want to stop.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I wouldn't say at 14 weeks he was being "vicious' about it..As you said, he was getting amped up, and probably didn't like ending the "game" , so he latched on..
> Teething can also 'hurt'.
> 
> I probably would have scruffed him myself, I would also start teaching a good 'leave it', he puts his mouth on a human, work on him 'leaving it'..redirect.
> ...


Yah, it scared us and we thought "Oh no, please don't carry thing to adulthood." But today we feel fine again. 

Thank you all!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Please don't bite your puppy. You are not a dog. Your puppy is smart enough to know that. Use GENTLE or EASY to remind him that you want to keep your hands and fingers. 

Scruffing him is ok to let him know he can't do that. But I would remove my hands from wherever he was trying to eat them. And if he went for my legs, I would scoop him up and dump him unceramoniously in his play area for a time and would ignore him for a bit. He needs to know that when he gets too rough, the game is over. 

As for the GENTLE command, I use food, and start with it in my open hand and say GENTLE. Generally they will take it gently out of an open hand. Always remind him for now though. Make it harder, and put it in a cupped hand, make sure that he doesn't get it unless he is taking it gently. Good Gentle, Good boy. 

Now is where you lose your fingers and put it in between your thumb and fore finger -- GENTLE. Good Gentle. When he is good at that, you can start using the gentle word with other stuff. Gentle with the baby. Gentle with my fingers. 

It works for mine.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

ImJaxon said:


> He wasn't having it and insisted several times via nips that he wanted to continue.


He would have been put away to calm down after the first or second nip before he had the opportunity to escalate.

Truthfully, I probably would have scruffed him too and then an immediate time out. The important thing is to keep your cool and calm so that he doesn't think you've lost your mind. 

Glad to hear he is getting into a class soon. He should be given playtime with other STABLE pups that will help him learn proper inhibition.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

You might want to find a puppet that you can utilize to play with your pup. The pup will focus on the toy and it'll be easier to control the play. You can still slip the puppet off and throw it, when your pup brings it back, slip it back on.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Agreed on all. Thanks. I was just concerned that I may have imprinted him or something. My GF was playing ball with him. He goes and gets the ball from the SIT command. We roll the ball and he stays until we say "OK" and he runs and gets the ball and brings it back. Problem is puppy doesn't give us the ball back. So, we say "SIT" and then we reach for the ball and ask him to "DROP IT" sometimes he does, sometimes not. Depends on how excited he is. In this particular case she just ignored him. She then got the one nip. Ignored. Then a second. Ignored. Then puppy dropped the ball and gave her a good attention getting snap. 

FYI, I don't bite him anymore. Was a one time thing I tried when he was a 8 week old pup. Since he had no siblings or other dogs to play with, I listened to some dummy who didn't know jack about dogs. We don't do that anymore. How stupid.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think he'll be fine, take the advice given here.

Just try to give him a time out before it gets to that point, you know whet they say - an ounce of prevention!

He is a beautiful dog, and sounds like a very clever and confident guy. I think you'll have fun with him as long as you continue to work at being the pack leader.

Puppy teeth are incredibly sharp, so it really doesn't take much to break the skin unfortunately. He is probably starting to teethe now too.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I can be difficult to play 'ball' with a pup who gets overly excited and nips. A toy with the ability to tug, or a ball with a rope on it, might be eaiser to work through bite inhibition. 

Just remember that he has puppy teeth and you don't want to tug too hard.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Your puppy tears (tries to tear) a victim, his prey represented in a form of a ball together with you, similarly to two wolves tearing a rabbit apart. He simply does it awkwady and bites you on the way. An agressive bite, that, which I call "an agressive bite" has a wish to destroy the enemy in it and acted under a drive to protect something important for your dog. The agression itself is driven by deep fear to become a looser. Many GSDs do not have real agression in themselves, even those who were trained K-9s and are perfect attackers: they simply take it as some sort of a game, and release the sleeve as willingly as they grab it. I'd try a thick rope and war-of-tug for a while, if I were you, instead of a ball. It could be safer, before your dog learns to "Leave it!" on command. Your puppy should leave it for something tasty from your pocket, make an exchange. It shodn't be difficut with the ball later if you trained him with a rope.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Hey thanks you guys! This stuff is really helpful. We've already altered what we're doing and no more really wild and out of control dog!

Thanks


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ImJaxon said:


> We roll the ball and he stays until we say "OK" and he runs and gets the ball and brings it back. Problem is puppy doesn't give us the ball back. So, we say "SIT" and then we reach for the ball and ask him to "DROP IT" sometimes he does, sometimes not. Depends on how excited he is.


Have you tried using food to get him to drop the ball? I'll use a very yummy smelly treat, and put it right up to the puppy's nose before asking for them them to drop the ball. When they do, mark it ("yes!") and give the treat. You're basically trading a treat for the ball, and teaching an association between your command and the behavior of giving up the toy. You can do this with a tug too. 

As quickly as I can, I switch from showing the treat first, to having treats out of sight, in a treat bag or pocket, and only pulling one out AFTER the puppy has dropped the ball/toy - you don't want him to become dependent on the sight of a treat in order to comply with the command.

From there, I transition to the only reward being praise, and then I throw the ball again, or give the toy back. Treats are no longer necessary because the reward is continuation of play, the food is only to teach what the verbal cue means. 

It's a good idea to work with him on trading, where you hold one end of a toy (anything tuggable) or a low value bone (Nylabones are good for this), while the dog chews the bone, or tugs with the toy. Work on your "drop it" command, trading a treat for the toy or bone, and then giving it back. Because you continue holding onto the end of whatever, you still "own" it, and he can't go off on his own and refuse to give it back. When you're done playing, end the session and put the toy away, or let him take the bone and chew it on his own for awhile if you wish.

Establishing a foundation of trust, where he gives you "his" things for a reward, and either gets them back again or he gets a treat AND he gets it back again, makes it much less likely that he will become a resource guarder. 

Another thing for retrieving a ball is to teach him to bring it right to your hand, so he's targeting your hand with the ball before getting the reward. We do this in flyball training with dogs who tend to spit the ball out too soon, either while still going over the jumps, or before or slightly after crossing the start/finish line.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh wow, thanks CM, that is awesome advice. Noted for further use!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Good luck, let us know how it goes! I did so much trading stuff with Halo from the time she was little that she still brings me things to take away from her. She created this game, and it's totally initiated by her - I call it "Can I have that?"






She likes me to hold her bone while she chews it, and she'll go get one and sit in front of me and stare until I get the hint and grab an end. She does the same thing with her Orbee balls. She doesn't even expect me to throw it for her, she just brings it to me, I take it away and give it back a couple of times, and then she goes and lays down to chew it. It's actually pretty cute, and it makes it much easier to take things away when I HAVE to, when she's gotten ahold of something she's not supposed to have, because we have this foundation of trust already established.


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## MiraC (Dec 7, 2012)

The pup sounds like he was overtired like when a little kid plays hard . He sure is cute red and black one of my favorite colors 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

I started doing your method last night CM. Works pretty good! 

Thanks again to everyone for your input!


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

*Have hope*

Jaeger sometimes got too excited and used his teeth too much with us. He learned not to pretty quickly (he is 7 months now). Just be consistent with the rules! Bite play ENDS play. The Big Dog (you) can always take something away, but you aren't mean about it. That sort of thing.

The worst thing in the world is to not have your attention. Walking away from overly-rough play is a terrific deterrent.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Yes, thanks. We do not let him bite. I actually do show some emotion sometimes. He will get his front paws up on the couch and just bark to invite me to play. I push him down and say "OFF", but he just thinks that is initiating play, and then jumps up on the couch with his big paws and bites at me. Anything he can catch with his mouth. Sometimes I get so frustrated I yell "NO" at him and I put him in the crate for about 5 minutes, until he forgets why he's there.

Not sure if that's the right thing to do, but he just gets so unmanageable sometimes when he wants to play, that I can't handle him.

lol.


I must correct myself. We play with him for bite inhibition only sometimes. We say "EASY" and he bites very easy, and eventually into a licking pattern. If he bites hard, then we YELP and leave him, as he hurt us, and he has lost his play partners. He's getting very good at bite inhibition. Even to the point where he's very excited, he still remembers in the heat of the moment.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ImJaxon said:


> Yes, thanks. We do not let him bite. I actually do show some emotion sometimes. He will get his front paws up on the couch and just bark to invite me to play. I push him down and say "OFF", but he just thinks that is initiating play, and then jumps up on the couch with his big paws and bites at me. Anything he can catch with his mouth. Sometimes I get so frustrated I yell "NO" at him and I put him in the crate for about 5 minutes, until he forgets why he's there.
> 
> Not sure if that's the right thing to do, but he just gets so unmanageable sometimes when he wants to play, that I can't handle him.
> 
> lol.


I totally understand your frustration, but that may not be the best way to handle it. Rather than pushing him away (which can definitely be seen as initiating play, and you're also reinforcing the behavior with your attention), I like to completely ignore the dog if they're barking at me or being pushy. It's harder when they're big enough to jump on the couch, but what about if when he does that you immediately get up (don't look at him, and don't say a thing, he's the invisible dog), and walk out of the room? What do you think he would do?

You could also have him wear a drag line around the house, a lightweight leash that you can use to control him rather than grabbing at him with your hands. You could step on it to prevent him from getting on the couch, or use it to calmly remove him from the couch if he jumps up there, or to take him to his crate for a brief timeout if that seems like the only thing that will calm him down. 

You want to engage him in play, but you can do it on YOUR terms rather than on his terms, on demand. Even if you make him go away for a few seconds and then invite him back over and play with him for a bit, that's all you need to do. Behavior that's not reinforced will eventually extinguish because it no longer works to get him what he wants, but it can take some time for that to sink in, and in the meantime he may get more persistent if it's worked for him in the past. 

I always make sure to acknowledge my dogs when they're NOT being pushy or annoying, when they're just hanging out playing with a toy or calmly chewing a bone, so they get plenty of attention and reinforcement for behavior I want to encourage.

You may already be doing this, but I like to start NILIF with my puppies from the time I bring them home: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Hey CM, 

The ignoring him works SOOOOOOOOO MUCH BETTER!!!!!

The only problem now is he's big enough to jump straight up on the couch.

Last night I was watching the Grammy's and the doggy came barking and wanting to play.

I ignored him.

Next thing I know I have a 40lb dog sharing the couch with me laying in my lap and licking my face.

HAHAHHAHAHAHA.

Have to admit, it was quite entertaining.

Thanks for your advice, it's been great!


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