# Puppy switch question.



## Urbanshepherd (Jun 26, 2010)

Last night I switched my 7 week old "Penny" over to raw, using just beef for a few days to see how she will handle it. 

Until now she has struggled with commercial food and runny stool, the Orijen seems too rich for her? 

Should I add rice to help?

Can anyone comment on experiences with switching over and digestion.

I am administering digestive enzymes with the meet since she does not like yogurt. 

Kindest regards
Troy Michael


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

A few questions for you. 

How much are you feeding? 
What beef parts are you feeding?
What kind of enzymes are you adding and how much?

I wouldn't add rice, but if you can find a few tablespoons of plain canned pumpkin to her food it will help her. 

There is no reason why she shouldn't be able to thrive on a raw diet, however, there are no bones suitable for a 7 week old puppy that come from a cow....


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Not to hijack but do you NEED to add enzymes?


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## Cluemanti (Jun 25, 2010)

Just curious how long have you had her since you are "switching" and having trouble with commercial foods?

If its a new pup changing too much at once can be too much.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Renee, some people add enzymes when first feeding a raw diet because some dogs have trouble producing enough enzymes in their gut to handle raw food. Usually its only added in to older adult dogs meals since they have gone their whole like only digesting kibble.

Its similar to feeding a piece of steak to a vegetarian. If you don't eat it, then you won't have the proper gut flora to handle it. It helps ease the body into handling it.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I wouldn't use beef to switch because (as mentioned by another poster) there aren't any beef bones that can be fed.

Bones are important, both because of the nutrients they provide and to keep the stool firm. (Dogs can get liquid diarrhea from an all raw diet without bones).

As far as digestive enzymes, I only use them with one of my dogs, and he has digestive issues. My dogs were all a bit older (the youngest was 7 months) when I switched to raw, however.

I did write up a marathon "how to" post for feeding raw for another forum, but I'll try to condense it here:

The main points:

-dogs should be fed 2% of their ideal adult body weight daily 
-the goal is 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs. I generally try to balance this over a week's time. 
-go slowly at first... too much, too fast can cause loose stool.

I start new dogs on chicken. Many people buy whole chickens and cut them up, but I don’t like to deal with cutting them up so I buy leg quarters. (Bone in chicken breasts are generally a good choice for puppies, the bones are the easiest and there is a good bone to meat ratio). Check the sodium content: if it's over 80, it's enhanced and you'll want to pass. Most of the Gold N Plump sold at my local grocery store is un-enhanced.

You can decide whether or not you want to take the skin and excess fat off the first few days. I did this for a couple of days when starting mine raw, but I don't believe I would've needed to. My dogs were just fine.

You'll want to feed nothing but chicken for the first couple of weeks. The bone content will be a bit high... but that's okay since bone = firm poops, and the tummy will be adjusting to the new food.

Your dog will be on just chicken for two weeks so that will give you plenty of time to choose your next protein source. I decided to go with pork, because it is inexpensive and readily available. When you start your second protein source, add just a bit of it to a chicken meal, so his tummy gets used to this new meat. Gradually increase the amount until you're feeding a full pork (or other protein) meal. Repeat these steps when adding beef, turkey, lamb, venison, etc.

Most pork bones are fine, but smaller dogs and puppies will not be able to crunch some of the larger ones. I personally do not usually feed beef bones. They are generally too dense for my dogs. 

When adding organs, make sure you start small, since they are rich and can cause loose stool before the dog is used to them. Organs are the “powerhouse” when it comes to nutrients, vitamins, etc. If you compare organ meat with vegetables, you’ll find a lot of the same nutrients… but organs have a higher content. That is why dogs do not require veggies… because they’re getting what they need from the 10% organ in their diet. Wolves in the wild may munch on grass or eat stomach content, but they generally do this out of preference rather than need.

If you're not feeding mostly grassfed meats, you should also add a source of Omega 3. It should be a protein source, and not flax based. Flax is not easily converted by dogs and many of them are actually allergic to it. I used to use salmon oil capsules, but with the recent lawsuits over PCPs in fish oil pills, I’ve started using canned sardines in water. I give each of my dogs a can of sardines 3x per week. A typical week looks like this:

Monday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, sardines
Tuesday: morning – chicken. Evening – beef, beef liver
Wednesday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork
Thursday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, sardines
Friday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, beef liver
Saturday: morning – chicken. Evening – beef, sardines
Sunday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork

I get other kinds of meat (turkey, lamb, etc.) when they are on sale. I get venison whenever I can… it’s so good for them…. Plus they love it!

I hope this helps. Luna had a lot of diarrhea/loose stool issues when she was kibble fed, but has been doing great since she's been on raw.  I switched her over when she was 7 months old... I wish I'd done it sooner!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Urbanshepherd said:


> Last night I switched my 7 week old "Penny" over to raw, using just beef for a few days to see how she will handle it.
> 
> Until now she has struggled with commercial food and runny stool, the Orijen seems too rich for her?
> 
> ...


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

sable123 said:


> A person new to raw feeding should start with a complete product especially with a puppy. I got the shakes just reading this thread. If your are **** bent on feeding 100% raw start with a complete mix like Bravo Balance, Abady, Natures Variety, Primal, etc. Learn first about it because its not about feeding muscle meat.


While I agree that someone wanting to switch to raw should do their homework, there is absolutely no reason why a pre-packaged raw product would be required, IMO. 

I know plenty of people (myself included) who switched to a raw prey model diet without using a pre-packaged product.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> While I agree that someone wanting to switch to raw should do their homework, there is absolutely no reason why a pre-packaged raw product would be required, IMO.
> 
> I know plenty of people (myself included) who switched to a raw prey model diet without using a pre-packaged product.


 
For a 7 week old puppy for someone totally new to raw feeding? Come on, the complete meals have come down in price to where its hard not to use them. The normal person could not duplicate them, never. I know it feels good to talk about "prey model" diets but I doubt the average person could or wants the trouble.

The pup would be better served with a high quality complete. Adding raw food is wonderful but there is no reason to become a prisoner to it.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

sable123 said:


> For a 7 week old puppy for someone totally new to raw feeding? Come on, the complete meals have come down in price to where its hard not to use them. The normal person could not duplicate them, never. I know it feels good to talk about "prey model" diets but I doubt the average person could or wants the trouble.


It has nothing to do with "feeling good." I defend my choice to feed my dogs raw on almost a daily basis. It would be much easier to simply feed a commercial diet.

I wouldn't want to duplicate most of the pre-packaged stuff out there because (IMO) dogs don't a lot of the stuff that's added in.

BTW, I consider myself pretty dang average.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

sable123 said:


> For a 7 week old puppy for someone totally new to raw feeding?


Why not?

The age of the pup has nothing to do with it. My Chinese Crested pups are weaned DIRECTLY to raw - they NEVER eat kibble.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out how to feed a dog a raw diet - just an average, semi-intelligent, willing to do a bit of reading person.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Urbanshepherd said:


> Last night I switched my 7 week old "Penny" over to raw, using just beef for a few days to see how she will handle it.


Troy - hopefully you are still reading this thread.

Switching a puppy to raw is NOT a difficult thing but you do have to do a bit of research to know what to do.

First, all beef is not a good idea. A dog needs meat AND bones in their diet each day.

There aren't any beef bones that a young puppy can eat completely.

I would suggest trying chicken. Chicken wings are a great starter Raw Meaty Bone. Most young puppies can handle those with no problems.

In addition to the RMBs (Raw Meaty Bones) you need to add MM (Muscle meat - meat without bone) and OM (Organ meat - liver, kidney, brain, etc.).

The ideal ratio is between 10 - 20% ACTUAL bone in the diet.

If you are feeding chicken necks, they are high in bone content (versus meat) and you need to feed more MM with them.

I tell most people to start with 45% RMBs, 50% MM and 5% OM.

Figuring out how much to feed a growing puppy it a bit trickier than figuring out how much to feed an adult.

Adults should get between 2-3% of their weight in food each day. This is just a *starting point*. After a few weeks you should see if your dogs weight is changing. If they are losing weight and don't need to, increase the amount fed. If they are gaining and don't need to - decrease.

With puppies, since they go through growth spurts and stops you can go with a single number.

I start with 7% of their *8 WEEK weight* and then check them each week.

Some weeks they will feel like they are too skinny. I increase the food a bit. Some weeks they will start to feel pudgy so I decrease. Sometimes I have to increase the food mid-week!

Remember, fat rolly-polly puppies may be cute but they are NOT healthy. Puppies, by 8-10 weeks of age, should look like miniature versions of an adult.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

Laurie, I am thinking about starting mine on raw and he is 85lbs so what would be the percentage for meat, bones and organs. How much would you feed him when first starting out. He is 15mo old


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

luvsables said:


> Laurie, I am thinking about starting mine on raw and he is 85lbs so what would be the percentage for meat, bones and organs. How much would you feed him when first starting out. He is 15mo old


Since he's finished growing (might do some filling out still) I would start with the 2.5% of his current body weight (if that's a good weight for him).

I use 45% RMBs, 50% MM and 5% OM.

Feed that for a week or two then check his weight. If he's gaining weight and doesn't need to - cut back the amounts. If he's losing weight and shouldn't be - increase his amounts.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

luvsables said:


> Laurie, I am thinking about starting mine on raw and he is 85lbs so what would be the percentage for meat, bones and organs. How much would you feed him when first starting out. He is 15mo old





Lauri & The Gang said:


> Since he's finished growing (might do some filling out still) I would start with the 2.5% of his current body weight (if that's a good weight for him).
> 
> I use 45% RMBs, 50% MM and 5% OM.
> 
> Feed that for a week or two then check his weight. If he's gaining weight and doesn't need to - cut back the amounts. If he's losing weight and shouldn't be - increase his amounts.


Denise,

Miya is on 2.5% of her body weight for raw and it maintains her weight. If Kai's metabolism is super high, then you might need to feed a higher percentage (sometimes up to 5% easily). You might want to introduce a type of protein, one at a time to see if Kai can handle it, and go easy on the organ meat as Lauri has suggested.

Christine


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

Thanks and Christine forgot that you switched Miya to raw. Kai is doing fine on the kibble as far as his poops go but he is itching like crazy (no redness, flakiness just itch, itch so I may start him on raw to see what it does for him. If I was to do the prepared raw what would you recommend? I may just do raw in the morn and kibble at night.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

The amount of prepared raw would still be around 2.5% for Miya but the brands in Canada would be different than the US ones. We have 7 cases of this chicken prepared raw as well still sitting in our freezer that didn't work with Miya because of the organ meat I think. I don't it is chicken organ meat which is the problem because it just says liver, kidney and not the animal it comes from. I like using chicken necks, chicken quarters with back and organs attached, turkey necks etc versus prepared raw because Miya has to chew her food.

Nature's Variety raw medallions are the only US brand I have tried and those are VERY EXPENSIVE. At 85lbs, Kai would need 2.125lbs (2.5% of body weight) of food per day. I would talk to Erin Stroik (doxsee) on here or Facebook as she orders huge bulk quantities for her dogs and her parents' dog as well for ideas where to order raw instead of going with the prepared raw.

I have fed one meal raw before and one meal kibble as well, but I don't mix the two because of digestion rates. It might help offset the cost as well.


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