# How do you become a "dominant" or "strong" handler?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Was researching working line dogs, some say they require a dominant or strong handler. What exactly do they mean by this? I've raised dogs in the past but I don't think I was a "dominant" handler. A little more specifics would be great from experienced handlers.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I prefer the term confident. They are referring to a handler who is capable of leading the dog. One who doesn't waver or become indecisive, giving the dog cause to doubt you. It also refers to a handler who can remain clear, focused and calm which is ideally where you want your dog at as well. Some dogs will actively challenge a handler and the person holding the leash has to be confident and strong enough to deal with that, because if you let them win once you make things much harder for both of you.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Eh. It's more important to be consistent and fair then dominant and strong with most dogs, even the working lines IMHO

Most pet owners I've met are very very inconsistent with their dogs. Forgetting to release after commands, not reinforcing ignored commands, constantly changing the rules. 

My, albeit limited, experience with working dogs seems to be their are a plethora of personalities amongst them and to say all WL need a strong or dominant handler just doesn't fit. I've seen dogs that are so hard that practically need a 2x4 slammed over their head before they notice a correction. I've seen others that act like the world is ending if their person just gives a stern verbal. Some dogs shut down if given a correction too strong for it. Others will turn and lash out at their handlers for the unfair treatment. Most are somewhere in the middle.

If you are interested in a working line dog the most important thing is developing a good relationship with some breeders, owners, and trainers. There are going to be dogs out there to suit just about any handler's style, energy, experience level, and goals. 

Getting to know people who work dogs regularly well help you find people producing dogs you will be best matched with.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

This should give you a bit of insight:






I think Jeff explains it way better than I can.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

How much are you getting paid for that? :rofl:

With that said, I would hardly compare owning a working line German Shepherd to anything remotely similar to owning a Pit Bull. Many familiar with both breeds concur no two types of dogs are more diametrically opposed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How much are you getting paid for that? :rofl:
> 
> With that said, I would hardly compare owning a working line German Shepherd to anything remotely similar to owning a Pit Bull. Many familiar with both breeds concur no two types of dogs are more diametrically opposed.


Having actually owned both pits and gsds. I disagree with this statement. 

Yes they are different breeds and have different drives and temperaments. My gsd is suspiscious of strangers. My pit was dog aggressive, etc. However the actual day to day life with them (re owning) has a lot more in common then say a GSD vs spaniel or a GSD vs Havanese or a GSD vs Newfoundland or GSD vs a Greyhound. (I say those as they are other breeds I have experience with)

I'm talking day to day as in dealing with prey drive, exercise needs, training needs, and their general management. Heck I have found that my pits and gsd even prefer the same type of games that my other breeds were meh about. Like tug and nosework.

Anywho. 

Didn't watch chips video. Something about the dude annoys me. Can't put my finger on it. Hey may be the best trainer in the world, I wouldn't know (and don't take this post as me bashing his skills). Could be a great video with fantastic info - i just can't get through it lol


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Can't agree with that, handling a dog that is prone to HA is distinctly different than one prone to DA. I have been around too many of both. I really can't even see a comparison with the ease with which a person can take an HA dog out in public vs one that is DA, and I am not speaking fear aggression. I have owned HA dogs, the more HA the better for me, and I have owned DA dogs. Please, keep the DA dogs. 

But seriously, never met a professional dog trainer, handler, breeder, etc., of HA aggressive breeds that did not consider DA a PITA, while appreciating HA and managing it with ease.

Not trying to start another Pit Bull thread, then again, I was not the one to bring up Pit Bulls, but there were two separate incidences in the past 24 hours where a man was killed by a friend's Pit Bull (which he knew) in CA and a 7 year old boy in Maine was killed by the family pet Pit mix. No, no way can anybody advise that the two breeds are similar, or share similar requirements.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

At the last IPO show I went to I saw a lot of shepherds and mals. A rottie. 2 dobies. 3 or 4 American bull dogs. 2 Pits. A ACD. A Dutchie. Oh and one very cool mutt. 

Seems to me if they are competing in the same sport successfully there are similarities. At least more similarities between them and many other breeds.



> But seriously, never met a professional dog trainer, handler, breeder, etc., of HA aggressive breeds that did not consider DA a PITA, while appreciating HA and managing it with ease


I have. Plenty of them. American Bulldogs are pretty known for DA. Yet I'm pretty sure the director for the USCA southeast region has titled a half dozen of 'em. 

But that aside pits really have nothing to do with this thread. I stomached some of that video an non of it was pit bull breed specific really.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

With my little experience, I also prefer words like confident and leader. Just to give a small example, I got my one and only GSD when he was roughly between 1-2 years old. He would have been considered an easy dog by most people on this forum, but he was a handful for me, just full of energy and hormones. He also acted like he had the choice of obeying me or not and much of that was my doing. I am a soft-spoken person and began to realize that it was the tone and projection of my voice and body language that gave him that idea. Once I realized that, I had to learn to give commands in a firm, no-nonsense manner and Newlie responded much better to that, it was like a light came on in his head "Oh yeah, THIS is what she wants me to do."


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

stepping away from the breed discussion here is how I look at the Dominant / Strong handler. It means this dog will be testing you so you need to have clear limits in mind. And you have to be consistent in enforcing them. It means using positive training for teaching new skills but not being afraid to use some appropriate corrections once you know the dog understands what you want yet refuses. Corrections do not mean beating the dog, though. You have to keep up with this dog, know his body language well and his moods so you can adjust unacceptable behavior right from the start. It is much harder teaching proper behavior if you have to play catch-up. 

It is not so much Pack Leader mentality but Benevolent Dictator. You wouldn't let a child run the house, don't let the dog run the house.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Julian G said:


> Was researching working line dogs, some say they require a dominant or strong handler. What exactly do they mean by this? I've raised dogs in the past but I don't think I was a "dominant" handler. A little more specifics would be great from experienced handlers.


I, personally, hate the word "dominant". You do need to be a leader. These dogs are smart, they will make their own decisions if you won't take charge. And they will get themselves in trouble doing that! In terms of a "strong" handler, you do need to tell them "No! You will NOT do this" at times.

BUT, in my experience, the relationship between you and your dog should be a partnership. It should be fair, clear and consistent. It needs to be based on trust between you and your dog, not on dominance.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is not a breed comparison but a behavior comparison. I just worked with a Standard Poodle, similar case, similar results.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

it


voodoolamb said:


> At the last IPO show I went to I saw a lot of shepherds and mals. A rottie. 2 dobies. 3 or 4 American bull dogs. 2 Pits. A ACD. A Dutchie. Oh and one very cool mutt.
> 
> Seems to me if they are competing in the same sport successfully there are similarities. At least more similarities between them and many other breeds.
> 
> ...



I did not watch the video either, I saw the writing on the wall with the thumbnail and went no further, so I cannot comment on the content either.

German Shepherds can, and do, compete in many different venues. That does not make them the same type as other dogs in all of those venues, nor should the reverse be said of other breeds. 

I do agree with the rest, Pit Bulls have nothing to do with this thread. They should have never been put in the mix, yet again, to derail yet another thread. The handling skills necessary to handle HA (civil), and to manage and control this desirable trait as well as frequently to enhance it, are not the same as those needed to handle DA, a quality that most try to suppress, and should not be consistently represented as such without being addressed further on a GSD forum. OP is on a German Shepherd Dog forum questioning how to be a strong or dominant handler for working line dogs. Let's get back on topic.

IMO, being a strong or dominant handler frequently has a lot to do with a person's natural temperament. Lacking such a type of personality, there are skills that can be learned to increase one's handling abilities that would benefit a naturally dominant personality as well. One has to be willing to assume a leadership role and be willing to enforce consistency and some basic rules. Commitment and patience are key, as well as the ability for the handler to be teachable. An understanding of dogs, their behavior, how they think and learn, body language, breed specific traits, etc., are all skills that can be learned to improve one's handling skills.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

car2ner said:


> stepping away from the breed discussion here is how I look at the Dominant / Strong handler. It means this dog will be testing you so you need to have clear limits in mind. And you have to be consistent in enforcing them. It means using positive training for teaching new skills but not being afraid to use some appropriate corrections once you know the dog understands what you want yet refuses. Corrections do not mean beating the dog, though. You have to keep up with this dog, know his body language well and his moods so you can adjust unacceptable behavior right from the start. It is much harder teaching proper behavior if you have to play catch-up.
> 
> It is not so much Pack Leader mentality but Benevolent Dictator. You wouldn't let a child run the house, don't let the dog run the house.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can't agree with that, handling a dog that is prone to HA is distinctly different than one prone to DA. I have been around too many of both. I really can't even see a comparison with the ease with which a person can take an HA dog out in public vs one that is DA, and I am not speaking fear aggression. I have owned HA dogs, the more HA the better for me, and I have owned DA dogs. Please, keep the DA dogs.
> 
> But seriously, never met a professional dog trainer, handler, breeder, etc., of HA aggressive breeds that did not consider DA a PITA, while appreciating HA and managing it with ease.
> 
> Not trying to start another Pit Bull thread, then again, I was not the one to bring up Pit Bulls, but there were two separate incidences in the past 24 hours where a man was killed by a friend's Pit Bull (which he knew) in CA and a 7 year old boy in Maine was killed by the family pet Pit mix. No, no way can anybody advise that the two breeds are similar, or share similar requirements.





Chip18 said:


> This should give you a bit of insight:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo
> 
> I think Jeff explains it way better than I can.


Great video. The key here is patience. The slip lead and air spray are good tools as well.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don't like the term dominant either regarding dogs because it isn't a good description. It's too vague and it gives people the impression they need to be tough or angry with their dogs. I agree with the words used here, confident and consistent. The best way to learn that is by taking a class or private lessons with a good trainer and learn to mirror what that person does. If you are involved in IPO you will learn a lot from the training sessions by observing other dog handlers.

As an example, a friend had a spaniel-herding mix dog that was so aggressive it would bite the ankles of any guest at her home who made eye contact. Every time the dog did that, without exception, she would pick her up (big dog, too, 40+ lbs) and put it in her lap and hug it, saying No, no, don't bite. The woman was afraid to be firm with her dog or to make the dog behave around guests because the dog was a shelter dog and "had a bad childhood." It didn't bite hard, but enough to scare people off. I can't even imagine that woman owning dogs like I have, who are relatively even tempered but still need firm guidance.

For a WL dog, or any GSD, but especially if you have a dog with drive that makes it more persistent, you need to understand dog behavior and make sure your interactions are clear and consistent. I am teaching my puppy to respond to quiet voices and commands, because I don't want to always shout at him to make him respond. I am trying to be consistent, so if I say Sit, for example, I'm not moving around in a way that he might read as play time rather than work time. When we are working I try to use the same demeanor all the time.

I've seen that video and I like it because he uses some good calming techniques for keeping the dog from rushing out of the crate. I tried them and with only a few door closures, my puppy stopped charging the crate door when I open it. JG is very strange but he gets the desired results. He was doing it all on a simple slip lead, which shows the kind of control he has when training a difficult dog. He's patient, quiet and not at all "dominant" and the dog responds and learns quickly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> Great video. The key here is patience. The slip lead and air spray are good tools as well.


Patience is good, but other then him saying he has confidence in himself, those are just techniques or tools being shown, they don't really have anything to do with your question. Even a wienie can shut a gate in the dogs face and teach him to wait so that he avoids having a gate shut in his face. 

Being a strong handler is your voice, body language, attitude, and like was mentioned by others, confidence. Its what you have when the leash isn't there because they know the difference.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Not saying that the person in the video isn't a strong handler, but the video is all about specific techniques - my resuce dog was worse than the dog in the video, and being "strong" with her didn't make any difference. 

Being calm, patient, learning about working with a dog, managine their behaviour so they have no choice but to do what you want them to do and rewarding that, learning about how dogs learn and applying that knowledge turned her around 100% to the point that the highest compliment I got on her is people saying that their goal with their dogs is to have them as well-behaved and compliant as mine. 

Being strong as others have said, is different than using specific techniques - it is more an inner confidence thing, knowing in your mind that you are the boss, but not feeling the need to boss the dog around. It's a million little subtle ways we interact with our dogs, and a very difficult thing to try and relay. If I saw someone with their dog, I probably could coach them on how to project a more confident, leader-like energy with how they move, how they carry themselves, how they interact with their dog in a gazillion little ways.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Patience is good, but other then him saying he has confidence in himself, those are just techniques or tools being shown, they don't really have anything to do with your question. Even a wienie can shut a gate in the dogs face and teach him to wait so that he avoids having a gate shut in his face.
> 
> Being a strong handler is your voice, body language, attitude, and like was mentioned by others, confidence. Its what you have when the leash isn't there because they know the difference.


Are you calling me a weenie with no confidence?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> it
> 
> 
> I did not watch the video either, I saw the writing on the wall with the thumbnail and went no further, so I cannot comment on the content either.
> ...


You brought up pits. You discredited the video chip posted without watching it, souly on the fact it depicted a pitbull. Having actually watched much of the video, there is no advice given in it that is not applicable to ALL breeds. Though I agree with others it doesn't really talk about handling, it may show what a strong handler looks like in action, which could be valuable.

When sharing advice on this forum, do we need to vet all videos, books, and trainers to make sure they deal with and depict only GSDs? Good dog advice is good dog advice. 

Personally I have met many professionals who do not mind managing DA dogs, the way your broad statements suggest. In some breed circles it is actively selected for - LSGs. Personally, I have found that the line between DA and HA is a fine one. Plenty of DA dogs redirect. Many individuals of HA breeds end up with DA. More of an overlap then in breeds where all types of aggression were selected against. But I digress.

My whole point is, having owned both gamebred pit bulls and a civil GSD, I have found they both need the same type of handler to be successful. Both are strong, intelligent, high energy dogs, drivey dogs, that need clear rules and reinforcement.

Oh. And a really good sense of humor is needed for both breeds.

So if others find the video useful, don't think the advice is inapplicable because of the breed being worked with.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> Are you calling me a weenie with no confidence?


No.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> You brought up pits. You discredited the video chip posted without watching it, souly on the fact it depicted a pitbull. Having actually watched much of the video, there is no advice given in it that is not applicable to ALL breeds. Though I agree with others it doesn't really talk about handling, it may show what a strong handler looks like in action, which could be valuable.
> 
> When sharing advice on this forum, do we need to vet all videos, books, and trainers to make sure they deal with and depict only GSDs? Good dog advice is good dog advice.
> 
> ...


I agree. I've watched a lot of videos, some of JG, some of SO'S and a lot of others, including food based training and e collars. I wanted to see how other handlers interact with their dogs. My take away after spending hours on youtube is that no matter what the technique, whether I agree with it or not, if the handlers are confident, consistent and they get results they want, I can learn something from them. There are also bad training videos showing terrible technique by people who are not good trainers, and you can learn what not to do by watching those. I personally have a lot of issues with JG, but that is a different topic.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> At the last IPO show I went to I saw a lot of shepherds and mals. A rottie. 2 dobies. 3 or 4 American bull dogs. 2 Pits. A ACD. A Dutchie. Oh and one very cool mutt.
> 
> Seems to me if they are competing in the same sport successfully there are similarities. At least more similarities between them and many other breeds.
> 
> ...


The video ... couple of points. And for the record ...* "I receive "NO" remuneration for sharing "Trainers" whose philosophy I follow.*
" Never imagined needing to say that ... but whatever. 

There were no parameters stated for the Dog/Puppy involved. It was a general question as I saw it?? And as they say a "picture is worth a thousand words ..." which I can easily do bt ... that clip is easier ... that is what it looks like.
*
"Calm assertive leadership" *... Cesar Milan, says it all the time. But what exactly does that mean?? Cesar says it all the time but he does not explain it?? Jeff however does and he adds the "Pet Convincer" for "the little people" who he also understands would otherwise "struggle" with a dog who is not eager to get with the program.

And no it's not "Breed" specific, as I said for "Training" Breed does not matter a "Dog" is a "Dog." Living with one and pursuing a given goal then yes. But it was a "Broad" general question and that clip is what it looks like.

Cesar actually "explains" very little ... "he just does it" and it looks like "magic" Jeff breaks it down for the "Little People" pretty much that simple. 

So if people take that clip and add the first clip here as well:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
and heed the Dog Park and Who Pets thing:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And add this:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

They can solve 90% of there "DOG" "issues." Breed specific issues caught me out but actually solving them .. "Nope" I did what I always did.

Hmm ... gonna have to "revisit" my Training Management and Leadership thread on "BoxerForum??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Great video. The key here is patience. The slip lead and air spray are good tools as well.


LOL did I see ... Slip Lead??? 

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

the


voodoolamb said:


> You brought up pits. You discredited the video chip posted without watching it, souly on the fact it depicted a pitbull. Having actually watched much of the video, there is no advice given in it that is not applicable to ALL breeds. Though I agree with others it doesn't really talk about handling, it may show what a strong handler looks like in action, which could be valuable.
> 
> When sharing advice on this forum, do we need to vet all videos, books, and trainers to make sure they deal with and depict only GSDs? Good dog advice is good dog advice.
> 
> ...


No, ma'am, I did not bring up Pits. That would have been Chip posting yet another Pit Bull video clip. It is getting to the point on so many threads that one can't away from Pit Bull clips or being directed to them. It has worn itself out.

I did not discredit Chip's video, my comment was: "*I did not watch the video either*, I saw the writing on the wall with the thumbnail and went no further, *so I cannot comment on the content either*."

The video may have shown things that apply to all breeds, but then again, just like with Pit Bulls, this is not a Pit Bull forum, nor an all breed forum. There are plenty of both out there for those interested in other breeds or a more generalized forums. I know that many come to this forum, a German Shepherd forum, because we are breed specific and aren't looking for Pit Bull or all breed information. That is not to say that other breeds should never be discussed, but it is to suggest that other non related breed types should NOT always be addressed or allowed to overshadow GSDs, but it seems to be all too common on here. There is no doubt in my mind, that there are plenty of videos out there that can demonstrate strong or confidant handling utilizing German Shepherds or very similar breeds that are predisposed to similar traits. Ignoring these videos, while repeatedly pushing those with such a controversial breed, does not create a positive interaction on this forum that many of us seek and it certainly can reflect poorly on GSDs in the eyes of a newbie to the German Shepherd breed.

When sharing advice on this forum, it would be nice if it were geared to being German Shepherd specific or there really is not a need to have a German Shepherd forum, an all breed forum would do quite nicely. Then again, that leads to the question that if one is really seeking all breed general information, or to dispense it, or breed specific information of another breed, why are these other people coming to a German Shepherd forum? 

In bold above in your comment, the same can be said of Jack Russell Terriers and Chihuahuas, but people don't come to a German Shepherd forum to learn about how to successfully manage them either. As for needing clear rules and reinforcement for both breeds, yes, but not the same rules and reinforcement. I don't think a person can sit in a vet's waiting room with a DA dog and have it sit and focus on them for what can be hours in an ER surrounded by dogs, yet one can take a sound HA GSD and sit and wait without any issues while being surrounded by people. Different rules relate that should never be presented as one and the same. They aren't. 

I am glad that you mentioned that many times HA and DA overlap. Of course it happens. But just recently I had a conversation with an experienced police K9 trainer and handler and broached that very same topic and he made it quite clear that most LE K9s are NOT DA. So if the proven toughest of the toughest of HA GSDs, and similar breeds, that are out there working don't necessarily straddle the DA/ HA fence, it does not suggest a fine line between DA and HA, at least in German Shepherds and other breeds used as K9s. It is this type of information and exchanges that get lost when threads become all breed or other breed directed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G, you started a thread: "Advice on these Breeders" where you listed all German Shepherd breeders. Are you looking to purchase a GSD?

Then you started a thread: "How do you socialize a Working Line dog?" where you asked on a German Shepherd forum: "How do you guys socialize your WL dogs?" Did you come to a GSD forum to find out how we socialize our Beagles or our German Shepherds? Are you aware that the end result of a well trained Beagle and a well trained GSD are not necessarily the same?

Then you started a thread: "What are the main differences between GSD, Mal, and DS?" Was it an oversight to omit Golden Retrievers or are you seeking breed specific information?

I guess what I am really asking for is clarification, do you want to know about handling working line German Shepherds or just any old breed? The reason I ask is do you want to be a confident handler in general, or do you want to know how to increase your handling skills with working line GSDs? Your answers can net you very different responses.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree with Voodoo, JG just rubs me the wrong way. Honestly, none of the dogs I've seen him handle have struck me as really that difficult. But maybe he just lacks good "before" videos. 

Being a strong handler can be taught if you are willing to learn. I had to amp up my handler skills a lot when I got a KNPV line shepherd, and that was OK, I learned a whole lot about working dogs and building a good relationship.

It has nothing to do with physical strength. It is about mentally out thinking the dog, reading the dog, telling the dog very clearly he can not do certain things, and being able to clearly communicate that in a fair and firm manner. Without losing your temper or getting angry. 

It's been incredible how far "animal behavior 101" can go. Once I understood the principles of learning, I could address specific issues without much thought. 

A strong handler also is not afraid of the dog they are handling. They can respect what that dog is capable of, without being scared of their dog. 



I


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> I agree with Voodoo, JG just rubs me the wrong way. Honestly, none of the dogs I've seen him handle have struck me as really that difficult. But maybe he just lacks good "before" videos.
> 
> Being a strong handler can be taught if you are willing to learn. *I had to amp up my handler skills a lot when I got a KNPV line shepherd, and that was OK, I learned a whole lot about working dogs and building a good relationship*.
> 
> ...


So are you saying that breed and / or line can make a difference in necessary handling skills? One size does not fit all?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Patience is good, but other then him saying he has confidence in himself, those are just techniques or tools being shown, they don't really have anything to do with your question. Even a wienie can shut a gate in the dogs face and teach him to wait so that he avoids having a gate shut in his face.
> 
> Being a strong handler is your voice, body language, attitude, and like was mentioned by others, confidence. Its what you have when the leash isn't there because they know the difference.


"NO" ... a wienie cannot! I can't find it ... but there was a 11 month old K9 left home with the wife. The dog "bolted" out the freaking the door and bit the neighbor in the butt! Dog training 101 "you don't bolt out the freaking door!!! Control your freaking dog "regardless" of "Breed!" I am not a "PRO" and all my dogs get that "Simple" concept.

And still ... to drive that point home ... the real freaking world ... Sadistic Cop Shoots Puppy in Front of Children, Laughs About It, Charges Owner with a Crime – The Free Thought Project

Control your freaking dog "REGARDLESS" of "Breed" is my message!

This is not a "IPO/PPD" question it's a "DOG" question.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> ...........I've seen dogs that are so hard that practically need a 2x4 slammed over their head before they notice a correction. I've seen others that act like the world is ending if their person just gives a stern verbal. Some dogs shut down if given a correction too strong for it. .............


The two I have now fit the above description--the male, my Czech boy, is hard as nails for the most part; the female (mostly) DDR is very soft, pretty much like voodoolamb's description above. Years ago, my first WL was an East German boy (they didn't call them DDR then), and he felt he could correct ME whenever I corrected him--that lasted about a couple weeks. And these are all pets. So there's no mold that they all fell out of. There's no "one size fits all" training style, either. And I agree with Sabis mom--I think that confidence is the key, that and no fear--respect, but no fear.

Susan


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> No.


I was joking. :grin2:


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> The two I have now fit the above description--the male, my Czech boy, is hard as nails for the most part; the female (mostly) DDR is very soft, pretty much like voodoolamb's description above. Years ago, my first WL was an East German boy (they didn't call them DDR then), and he felt he could correct ME whenever I corrected him--that lasted about a couple weeks. And these are all pets. So there's no mold that they all fell out of. There's no "one size fits all" training style, either. And I agree with Sabis mom--I think that confidence is the key, that and no fear--respect, but no fear.
> 
> Susan


Just curious, which training methods did you implement for the different types of personalities in your dogs? Hate to say it, but a slight tap on the nose is what I did when dealing with a hard dog. I felt it was much more humane than yanking on the collar and causing throat damage.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> I was joking. :grin2:


I was intimidated by the way you spelled weenie. I kinda sissified it with the i in there.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> Just curious, which training methods did you implement for the different types of personalities in your dogs? Hate to say it, but a slight tap on the nose is what I did when dealing with a hard dog. I felt it was much more humane than yanking on the collar and causing throat damage.


Well, your not only going to see temperament differences, but breed differences too in what motivates them and how they view punishment. You take that guardian breed or bully breed, they don't respond to things exactly like a Shepherd or Mal. You may see similarities in the results, if the training is good, but the details of the training are going have to match the breed and temperament.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You could pick up 'Schutzhund theory and training methods' and apply it to any dog. The training methods are pretty straight forward relating to how a dog learns and what methods are proved to get results. I don't even think mals are mentioned in that book, 1978. Labs are.

Obviously the sport is designed for German shepherds.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You can apply anything, but in the end when your Afghan still won't track or your Lhasa Apso still doesn't heel, you'll notice different breeds aren't motivated the same and you'll have to re define what you mean by results.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Breed matters, huh? Whouda thunk?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> You can apply anything, but in the end when your Afghan still won't track or your Lhasa Apso still doesn't heel, you'll notice different breeds aren't motivated the same and you'll have to re define what you mean by results.


A ha. You hit a good point. With my German Shepherds in the past I *KNOW* they knew what I was asking of them. They just not always obeyed. Is this what some breeders mean when they say GSDs are sometimes too sharp? Its like I know the dog knew I wanted it to heel or sit or whatever, but the dog just felt like "whats the point when that bush over there is much more interesting, or we did this 500 times leave me alone".
It is a very smart breed, maybe even self aware. I think this may be why many breeders for police work have switched to the Belgian Mals, I'm not saying the Belgian Mals are dumb, they just seem like they will obey more consistently and have a 100mph go go go sort of mentality. When I see WL GSDs I see a sort of calm demeanor to them, they seem to take a split second longer to assess the situation before reacting. Maybe I have no clue to what I'm saying but that's just the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Are you really gonna make me find an afgan that can track and a lhaso apso that can heal.

lol

Obviously breed matters, dogs bred for purpose should perform accordingly. 

I just wouldn't rule out other breeds or that other breeds aren't motivated by the same drives.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Just curious, which training methods did you implement for the different types of personalities in your dogs? Hate to say it, but a slight tap on the nose is what I did when dealing with a hard dog. I felt it was much more humane than yanking on the collar and causing throat damage.


I hesitate to say this, but with my hardest wl gsd, the one I mentioned would try and correct a correction, I knew that if I tried to yank and crank on him, I'd have a fight on my hands that I'd have to win. I actually found ignoring him was more effective. He was smart enough to realize that since what he was doing (reaching around and grabbing my thigh, for instance) just wasn't working for him, he gave it up. My interest for years was in training and showing horses, so I just wanted my dogs to be obedient and mannered. Didn't show any, but could have in obedience with at least a couple. So my experience is no where near the guys on here who have years of schutzhund/ipo behind them, but in 6 decades of dog ownership (GSDs and GSD/wolfx) I always had the confidence. Perhaps it came from training horses--you need the same personality qualities for that--confidence, consistency and respect, but no fear.

Susan


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Julian G said:


> A ha. You hit a good point. With my German Shepherds in the past I *KNOW* maybe even self aware. I think this may be why many breeders for police work have switched to the Belgian Mals, I'm not saying the Belgian Mals are dumb, they just seem like they will obey more consistently and have a 100mph go go go sort of mentality. When I see WL GSDs I see a sort of calm demeanor to them, they seem to take a split second longer to assess the situation before reacting. Maybe I have no clue to what I'm saying but that's just the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I've heard that recently, in an audio book I was enjoying. Basically the Mal is more "sure boss". less, "let me think about that" (my words, not the author's).

I did see a French Bulldog do the OB routine. She just couldn't do the wall or A frame. And I've seen a video of a small dog doing Protection work. 

Which ever dog you have you need to match their drive. A low key dog can have a low key handler. A dog with a great deal of energy and drive is going to need someone who will keep on eye on them and keep a handle on their behavior, getting the dog to shift out of something potentially dangerous.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Are you really gonna make me find an afgan that can track and a lhaso apso that can heal.
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


But remember the point of the thread. How to handle them.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

car2ner said:


> I've heard that recently, in an audio book I was enjoying. Basically the Mal is more "sure boss". less, "let me think about that" (my words, not the author's).
> 
> I did see a French Bulldog do the OB routine. She just couldn't do the wall or A frame. And I've seen a video of a small dog doing Protection work.
> 
> Which ever dog you have you need to match their drive. A low key dog can have a low key handler. A dog with a great deal of energy and drive is going to need someone who will keep on eye on them and keep a handle on their behavior, getting the dog to shift out of something potentially dangerous.


The "sure boss" mentality is something I also got by watching a few mals in action (youtube vids). GSD seem a lot calmer overall, even the working line ones. Again this is a generalization.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> But remember the point of the thread. How to handle them.


Note to check subject and details of ops post next time, before commenting on comments. 

And to refrain from being pedantic about breed equality.

:nerd:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yeah, but some malinois are not "sure boss". In fact, they are known for handler aggression. Biddable, yes, but make a mistake or be unfair, many a malinois will let you know. It is a fine balancing act between being a sensitive handler and being a firm handler. 

And they can be one-handler dogs, for sure. I pity the fool who tries to mess around and simply "dominate" a certain type of malinois. KNPV and some others are not for the faint of heart or the macho types who think a two-by-four will get the job done. Yes, they can so-called "take a beating" but the Dutch know exactly what they are doing when it comes to that. 

Breed differences? Of course! And then line differences within the breed, and then personality differences within the line.

As always, know your breed but more importantly, know your dog! 

Solid understanding of how dog's learn, calmness and fairness and the right tools for the right job, and a respectful relationship with the dog make or break a handler-dog relationship.

Being a strong handler is more about being a good dog trainer or good "dog-man" than anything else.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Yeah, but some malinois are not "sure boss". In fact, they are known for handler aggression. Biddable, yes, but make a mistake or be unfair, many a malinois will let you know. It is a fine balancing act between being a sensitive handler and being a firm handler.
> 
> And they can be one-handler dogs, for sure. I pity the fool who tries to mess around and simply "dominate" a certain type of malinois. KNPV and some others are not for the faint of heart or the macho types who think a two-by-four will get the job done. Yes, they can so-called "take a beating" but the Dutch know exactly what they are doing when it comes to that.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> As always, know your breed but more importantly, know your dog!
> 
> Solid understanding of how dog's learn, calmness and fairness and the right tools for the right job, and a respectful relationship with the dog make or break a handler-dog relationship.
> 
> Being a strong handler is more about being a good dog trainer or good "dog-man" than anything else.



Since y'all brought up breed difference, don't be like way too many small dog owners. They don't learn or worse, ignore their dog's body language cues. We walked past a very nice woman with a small dog this morning. They were on the other side of the street and the little thing was taking a pee. Once done, I could see that it was going to start a bark fest. The owner, who after returning my Good Morning, began fussing at her dog. If she had been watching her dog instead of reading her phone messages, she could have corrected her dog before it started barking and we could have passed peaceably, or perhaps even stop for a neighborly chat. '

(disclaimer: I was with Chief, who is still under a year old and learning her manners. She behaved wonderfully this time...this time being the key phrase):wink2:


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

car2ner said:


> Since y'all brought up breed difference, don't be like way too many small dog owners. They don't learn or worse, ignore their dog's body language cues. We walked past a very nice woman with a small dog this morning. They were on the other side of the street and the little thing was taking a pee. Once done, I could see that it was going to start a bark fest. The owner, who after returning my Good Morning, began fussing at her dog. If she had been watching her dog instead of reading her phone messages, she could have corrected her dog before it started barking and we could have passed peaceably, or perhaps even stop for a neighborly chat. '
> 
> (disclaimer: I was with Chief, who is still under a year old and learning her manners. She behaved wonderfully this time...this time being the key phrase):wink2:


I keep reading you guys say "correcting" but I have yet to fully understand the right way to correct a dog. What I would do in the past is give a slight yank on the collar, or a slight tap on the nose, or a slight poke on the side of the neck to focus on me rather than another dog, or my dogs infatuation with a particular rock on the street. (I swear sometimes my dog would set up camp and sniff at a rock for 10 minutes and no matter what I would do she wouldnt move)


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

car2ner said:


> Since y'all brought up breed difference, don't be like way too many small dog owners. They don't learn or worse, ignore their dog's body language cues. We walked past a very nice woman with a small dog this morning. They were on the other side of the street and the little thing was taking a pee. Once done, I could see that it was going to start a bark fest. The owner, who after returning my Good Morning, began fussing at her dog. If she had been watching her dog instead of reading her phone messages, she could have corrected her dog before it started barking and we could have passed peaceably, or perhaps even stop for a neighborly chat. '
> 
> (disclaimer: I was with Chief, who is still under a year old and learning her manners. She behaved wonderfully this time...this time being the key phrase):wink2:



One of the many things I learned on this forum is the importance of paying attention to your dog and correcting them BEFORE the behavior actually starts. Trying to stop a dog once they are all amped up and acting crazy is just about impossible, at least for me. When I started paying attention to Newlie's signals, they were incredibly easy to see. If Newlie sees something like a rabbit or squirrel for example, he stiffens, his head goes up, his ears go up and his eyes are locked on what he sees. If I can catch him right at that moment and say "leave it" or "knock it off," or even jingle his chain a little bit, I can stop it before it ever starts. That has been great advice for me.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

newlie said:


> One of the many things I learned on this forum is the importance of paying attention to your dog and correcting them BEFORE the behavior actually starts. Trying to stop a dog once they are all amped up and acting crazy is just about impossible, at least for me. When I started paying attention to Newlie's signals, they were incredibly easy to see. If Newlie sees something like a rabbit or squirrel for example, he stiffens, his head goes up, his ears go up and his eyes are locked on what he sees. If I can catch him right at that moment and say "leave it" or "knock it off," or even jingle his chain a little bit, I can stop it before it ever starts. That has been great advice for me.


Yep .. if they are "over the top," it's best to just turn and walk away, you need to "break" their focus "before" they go over the top.

And yes as was stated a slight "tug sideways" or a finger poke or tap on the nose (that last one depends on the dog of course ) Or as 'David Winner" once told me a light pop on the head with the 
loose end of the leash.

And for people that struggle with "Corrections" there is always the Pet Convincer.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7400865-post6.html

And since we seem to be moving on to dog "reactivity" and corrections and such. Ty the Dog Guy takes a more conventional approach ... "turn and walk away" and try again approach. 

I tend to favor Jeff and Sean'S approach myself but that aside ... "Teach your dog to ignore other dogs.: 

Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Yeah, but some malinois are not "sure boss". In fact, they are known for handler aggression. Biddable, yes, but make a mistake or be unfair, many a malinois will let you know. It is a fine balancing act between being a sensitive handler and being a firm handler.
> 
> And they can be one-handler dogs, for sure. I pity the fool who tries to mess around and simply "dominate" a certain type of malinois. KNPV and some others are not for the faint of heart or the macho types who think a two-by-four will get the job done. Yes, they can so-called "take a beating" but the Dutch know exactly what they are doing when it comes to that.
> 
> ...


That really sounds like Slamdunc's new partner ... "one person, Dog with attitude." You best get this right kinda thing.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I keep reading you guys say "correcting" but I have yet to fully understand the right way to correct a dog. What I would do in the past is give a slight yank on the collar, or a slight tap on the nose, or a slight poke on the side of the neck to focus on me rather than another dog, or my dogs infatuation with a particular rock on the street. (I swear sometimes my dog would set up camp and sniff at a rock for 10 minutes and no matter what I would do she wouldnt move)


My boy is still intact and when he finds the "perfume" of some sweet young thing, he buries his nose into it and tugging doesn't help. That is when I think, "what would another dog do" and the answer in my mind is, push him aside. I walk over by his head and and walk into him. A gentle nudge with the legs and he gets the hint that we need to move on. 
This is one behavior that is hard for me to catch before it happens. When we walk for miles I expect him to enjoy the smells along the way. Usually he gets a quick sniff and we move on. When I find that a female has been marking up the territory, I move along more briskly and keep the leash shorter and stay more to the middle of the sidewalk.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Car- yes I've done this quite a few times. I trail run and I taught my dogs to pay attention and stay out of my way by running into them when they got in the way. They quickly caught on, and it is much safer not to worry about tripping over a dog who stopped to sniff or whatever. 

A correction is whatever works, whatever the dog doesn't like. Whatever makes the dog not want to repeat what made the correction happen. A correction reduces the likelihood of a dog doing whatever it was you didn't want. You can be creative, but make sure you are calm, are communicating clearly with the dog, and are not being abusive. 

I remember way back when my then very young husky would try to hump my GSD. I tried teaching him off and all this stuff with positive based methods. Then my parents took care of my dogs for a few days. I asked my Dad how he handled it and he said he just smacked my husky on the muzzle. Sure enough, that put an end to the adolescent "humping" and it hasn't returned. 

Sometimes, people know more than they think. My Dad is far from a dog trainer, but he had it right in that case! That was the beginning of my "oh, positive only really doesn't work so well" brain wave.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Car- yes I've done this quite a few times. I trail run and I taught my dogs to pay attention and stay out of my way by running into them when they got in the way. They quickly caught on, and it is much safer not to worry about tripping over a dog who stopped to sniff or whatever.
> 
> 
> Sometimes, people know more than they think. My Dad is far from a dog trainer, but he had it right in that case! That was the beginning of my "oh, positive only really doesn't work so well" brain wave.


LOL, I had a ridgie mix that walked nicely on a loose leash and heeled when I asked but lost all self control when a squirrel came by. We were jogging down a hill and sure enough, a squirrel dashed across my path, left to right. My dog ran across in front of me to chase the critter and I crashed into her going heels over head and landing on the ground on the other side of my dog. After I found my glasses that flew off of my head, and brushed myself off, we continued the walk. 
My dog always heeled when we jogged after that. 

I don't recommend that as a training exercise but it worked.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Car- yes I've done this quite a few times. I trail run and I taught my dogs to pay attention and stay out of my way by running into them when they got in the way. They quickly caught on, and it is much safer not to worry about tripping over a dog who stopped to sniff or whatever.
> 
> A correction is whatever works, whatever the dog doesn't like. Whatever makes the dog not want to repeat what made the correction happen. A correction reduces the likelihood of a dog doing whatever it was you didn't want. You can be creative, but make sure you are calm, are communicating clearly with the dog, and are not being abusive.
> 
> ...


Im always afraid that smacking them in the muzzle is abusive and will ruin the relationship. I smacked dogs in the past though, and it did appear to help stop the behavior I didnt like. Like when my dog would tear up my hands when putting on and taking off the leash. This simple task would result in me looking like a junkie with all the marks on my arms. Where's the line between a correction and being abusive? And how can we ensure to not kill the dogs drive and ruin the relationship?
By the way I love the dog in your avi, mind PMing me the breeder you got him from? I would love a working line dog like that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Im always afraid that smacking them in the muzzle is abusive and will ruin the relationship. I smacked dogs in the past though, and it did appear to help stop the behavior I didnt like. Like when my dog would tear up my hands when putting on and taking off the leash. This simple task would result in me looking like a junkie with all the marks on my arms. Where's the line between a correction and being abusive? And how can we ensure to not kill the dogs drive and ruin the relationship?
> By the way I love the dog in your avi, mind PMing me the breeder you got him from? I would love a working line dog like that.


LOL "smacking dogs" ... to bad you missed it and I did not keep track of it but that is one technique "Bailiff" uses and teaches to his clients on request! 

Over my head to try and explain but in "effect" similar to a "Bonker" except the dog "understands the "correction" comes from you. 

Depending on situations and circumstances a "Bonker" can service as an "Act of God Correction" ... "Where the heck did that come from??"

Dog Training and Obedience Articles | Self Correction - Carpentersville, Illinois

I figure it's "relative" here since the discussion seems to be broadening. 

And the tool in use there is actually a "throw chain" for the record ... "Kohler Method of Dog Training."


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