# breeder recommendations?



## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

i am looking to get a german shepherd at least two years from now as a sport and service work prospect. i have a few breeders in mind already but i’m always looking for more recommendations and i’m curious to see what people on here will say!

i live on the east coast of the continental united states and am willing to travel anywhere within the country however i do not want to ship a dog from overseas, so please only recommend breeders within the US.

here are some criteria i have:
-i am open to working or show line dogs, i’m not picky
-id like an AKC registered dog
-the breeder MUST OFA test their dogs and only breed dogs with clear/good ratings
-i would very much prefer the breeder to use puppy culture, however it is not necessary
-the breeder MUST be actively showing, competing, or working their dogs. i’m not looking for a pet
-i would prefer a breeder that temperament tests, however this is not necessary
-i would like a breeder that breeds medium to high drive dogs, preferably more on the medium side
-i would love it if you guys can find breeders who have bred successful service dogs in the past, but this is not necessary

that’s all i can currently think of, thanks for reading and i look forward to seeing any recommendations you guys may have for me


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Puppy culture was created for a different type of dog, and is not commonly used among GSD breeders. I don’t know of any who use it. The breed it is most commonly used for has a fighting problem and it’s not clear it does anything useful for the puppies they can’t get from normal handling. Some of their methods sound good and are probably standard puppy handling but it also forces breeders to use a very specific feeding method and is very restrictive.


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> Puppy culture was created for a different type of dog, and is not commonly used among GSD breeders. I don’t know of any who use it. The breed it is most commonly used for has a fighting problem and it’s not clear it does anything useful for the puppies they can’t get from normal handling. Some of their methods sound good and are probably standard puppy handling but it also forces breeders to use a very specific feeding method and is very restrictive.


odd because i’ve found several GSD breeders that use puppy culture, primarily working line breeders. i have personally seen fantastic results from puppy culture and notice a solid difference in the engagement of puppies that have been raised with it vs puppies that haven’t. i would just prefer my dog to be raised with the use of puppy culture. i’m curious though, what exactly is the breed it’s most commonly used for?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You know, I’ve never heard of this puppy culture thing. I’m now curious what it is. None of the shepherd breeders I’ve ever talked to have mentioned it, so I’d assume they don’t do it and it’s not common.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We aren’t allowed to discuss that breed here. I’m sorry.



Bearshandler said:


> You know, I’ve never heard of this puppy culture thing. I’m now curious what it is. None of the shepherd breeders I’ve ever talked to have mentioned it, so I’d assume they don’t do it and it’s not common.











 Puppy Culture


Puppy Culture, for PUPPY OWNERS -and- BREEDERS THE POWERFUL FIRST 12 WEEKS That Can Shape Your Puppy's Future.




www.shoppuppyculture.com





This breeder ties Puppy culture in with Natural Rearing. There are a lot of good ideas but anything this rigid is impractical for most people.



https://www.braxenaeurasiers.com/nrbreeding


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

What??? Scarlet’s litter was raised using Puppy Culture.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Interesting read


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jane Killion, who developed Puppy Culture, shows and breeds Bull Terriers. She also has a good training book called When Pigs Fly. Scarlet’s breeder loaned me all the Puppy Culture DVDs so I would know what was going on with her litter, since I was so invested in it. It’s a good program. I’m not sure what the confusion is.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

226 – Jane Killion Shares the Evolution of Puppy Culture


Jane Killion on Puppy Culture for New and Experienced Breeders Alike Jane Killion, Mark Lindquist and Bull Terriers. One of my most frequent




puredogtalk.com


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Why would you want to get a puppy with a genetic predisposition for aggression and resource guarding and raise it to discourage those traits? That seems like a dangerous practice in the hands of a novice.


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why would you want to get a puppy with a genetic predisposition for aggression and resource guarding and raise it to discourage those traits? That seems like a dangerous practice in the hands of a novice.


i’m sorry, what? we’re talking about german shepherds here, you do know that right 😅


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Have you had shepherds before? What is your experience with dogs in general? What sports are you considering? What would the service dog be for? What breeders are you considering? Have you contacted any?


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Have you had shepherds before? What is your experience with dogs in general? What sports are you considering? What would the service dog be for? What breeders are you considering? Have you contacted any?


i grew up around shepherds, among other breeds, and have worked with them, as i’m currently a dog trainer focusing primarily on behavior modification. they’re a breed i've admired for years and i’m hoping to get one as my next dog. as for sports, it would be more of a hobby than anything, but i’d like to casually continue my pursuit of barn hunt, fast CAT, and dock diving, two of which i have done with my current dog. i’d prefer not to go into depth about my disabilities but the dog will be a mobility aid. don’t worry though, i am still more than capable of properly exercising high energy and driven dogs. the two breeders that are currently catching my eye the most are austerlitz shepherds and rodina straze gsd. i have yet to contact any as i won’t be getting the dog for at least another two years.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I would recommend you look at sturmfalken. I would also recommend you reach out early since she doesn’t breed a lot and I’m not sure what her waitlist is like.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

heyitsfour said:


> i’m sorry, what? we’re talking about german shepherds here, you do know that right 😅


Why, yes, I do know that. Have you read the written breed standard for expected genetic behavioral traits?


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why, yes, I do know that. Have you read the written breed standard for expected genetic behavioral traits?


i have and as far as i know no well bred german shepherd should be a genetically aggressive or possessive dog. the breed is bred to have a guard instinct but when bred, raised, and trained properly should know how to tell what an actual threat is and should not in any way be an aggressive dog. and what do you mean by “raise it to discourage those traits”. first off you have no idea how i’m going to go about raising my dog and second off who in their right mind would ever encourage aggression?? also, while this will be my first time owning a german shepherd that is truly just my own dog, i am definitely not a novice when it comes to dogs, particularly athletic, large, and driven dogs.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think you guys need to go back and read the OP’s original post. It’s a perfectly reasonable list. Health testing, temperament testing, medium drive, a breeder that titles or does sports with their dogs. The OP would like a breeder that uses the Puppy Culture program to raise the litter. You all apparently have no clue what that entails, and I get that. My dog was raised using Puppy Culture. Lots of socialization and engagement. It has nothing to do with dangerous or aggressive dogs or breeds. At all.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've never heard of puppy culture so can't comment there. But any good, experienced, breeder is going to temperament test when interacting with the puppies. They change daily! The ones I know, officially test the puppies between 7-8 weeks for drives and temperament. A good breeder will socialize the puppies with visitors and in the environment. So if puppy culture fits in that category, then you won't have a problem with the vast majority of breeders regardless of the program. 

I can tell you that my male's breeder hits everything on the list, except maybe the "puppy culture". She was the kennel manager for Fidelco before they were sold. 
Vom Sitz von der Hose / Olgameister.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

heyitsfour said:


> i have and as far as i know no well bred german shepherd should be a genetically aggressive or possessive dog. the breed is bred to have a guard instinct but when bred, raised, and trained properly should know how to tell what an actual threat is and should not in any way be an aggressive dog. and what do you mean by “raise it to discourage those traits”. first off you have no idea how i’m going to go about raising my dog and second off who in their right mind would ever encourage aggression?? also, while this will be my first time owning a german shepherd that is truly just my own dog, i am definitely not a novice when it comes to dogs, particularly athletic, large, and driven dogs.


First of all I was not talking to you or addressing your comments. I was responding to the link posted which stated the program worked to mitigate aggression and resource guarding. 

No where did I say that a GSD should not be discerning. Regardless, when it does perceive a threat, it should not tuck tail and run. A well bred GSD should protect and they do that with aggression. There is a reason that GSDs are well utilized by law enforcement, the military and those seeking a home protectors.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hey y'all. Could you use the reply button so we know who the heck you're talking to.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Hey y'all. Could you use the reply button so we know who the heck you're talking to.


That assumes we know who we are talking to but yes, I will.


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## bercaw (Jun 1, 2020)

Shield K9


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

heyitsfour said:


> i am looking to get a german shepherd at least two years from now as a sport and service work prospect. i have a few breeders in mind already but i’m always looking for more recommendations and i’m curious to see what people on here will say!
> 
> i live on the east coast of the continental united states and am willing to travel anywhere within the country however i do not want to ship a dog from overseas, so please only recommend breeders within the US.
> 
> ...


I think your list looks nice. Couple of notes.

I like working titles too but be aware of the titles listed. TKN is a title but my puppy has that title, it’s not an intense working title.
I agree with the others that limiting based on “puppy culture” may be too strict. My breeder seems to follow many of these practices without calling it “puppy culture”
As far as a proven breeder of service dogs, I consider this a necessity. If you truly want a service dog (especially if public service is needed), your breeder should be able to pick the correct breeding pair and know how to properly select a service dog from puppyhood (a gamble any way you split it)


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## DeeJn (Sep 9, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> Puppy culture was created for a different type of dog, and is not commonly used among GSD breeders. I don’t know of any who use it. The breed it is most commonly used for has a fighting problem and it’s not clear it does anything useful for the puppies they can’t get from normal handling. Some of their methods sound good and are probably standard puppy handling but it also forces breeders to use a very specific feeding method and is very restrictive.


OMG?? It doesn't sound like you know a lot about puppy culture. Everything from poodles on up have been raised on puppy culture. And I am networking with a GSD breeder right now who uses puppy culture.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I know what I’ve read on different sites. I realize some other Breeders use it now, but it’s almost impossible to follow the restrictions they place on puppies they sell. And yes, it was created by a breeder who breeds only one type of dog. I noticed that is your first post, so you probably did not read all my other posts?


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## DeeJn (Sep 9, 2020)

dogfaeries said:


> Jane Killion, who developed Puppy Culture, shows and breeds Bull Terriers. She also has a good training book called When Pigs Fly. Scarlet’s breeder loaned me all the Puppy Culture DVDs so I would know what was going on with her litter, since I was so invested in it. It’s a good program. I’m not sure what the confusion is.


I'm not sure what the confusion is either. I've heard people that have a puppy culture dog that they don't want another dog unless puppy culture is used. I searched for a GSD who use puppy culture and found one I like.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

DeeJn said:


> I'm not sure what the confusion is either. I've heard people that have a puppy culture dog that they don't want another dog unless puppy culture is used. I searched for a GSD who use puppy culture and found one I like.


There is nothing wrong with using that type of breeder if you want one. I looked into a breeder who uses it and they have strict requirements on how you raise your puppy at home. I realized there is no way I could possibly follow their very rigid restrictions.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Like I’ve said a bazillion times here, Scarlet and her littermates were raised using Puppy Culture. We didn’t have any weird strict requirements. If you’re on FB, go check out Austerlitz shepherds. She has many posts and videos of her GSD puppies showing how Puppy Culture works.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> There is nothing wrong with using that type of breeder if you want one. I looked into a breeder who uses it and they have strict requirements on how you raise your puppy at home. I realized there is no way I could possibly follow their very rigid restrictions.


It's confusing to me that someone would use a protocol that mitigates aggression for a breed that is supposed to have a degree of aggression. Why not just get a puppy that doesn't have the genetic predisposition? And most breeders have the pups until 8 - 10 weeks. I am not so sure I would want a breeder having that much influence on a pup. It reminds me of all of that imprinting Berno is always doing because he's trying to get out what isn't there to begin with. Which leads us to breeding. Wouldn't the program complicate deciding how much is nature vs nurture when it comes to making breeding decisions? Last but not least, in breeds with genetic predispositions for aggression, all it will take is the right stimulus at the right time to evoke nature. What happens then? Do people stand around saying: well, he never did that before....


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> Like I’ve said a bazillion times here, Scarlet and her littermates were raised using Puppy Culture. We didn’t have any weird strict requirements. If you’re on FB, go check out Austerlitz shepherds. She has many posts and videos of her GSD puppies showing how Puppy Culture works.


The breeder I looked at requires no vaccines, and you must use titers, only feed raw, even to young puppies, and you must use an approved vet. I’m not sure I could even find an approved vet. They would not sell to with carpeting, unless the buyers pull it up. You could not use any chemical cleaning products. You could not take a puppy home at 8 weeks.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> The breeder I looked at requires no vaccines, and titers, only feed raw, even to young puppies, and you must use an approved vet. I’m not sure I could even find an approved vet. They would not sell to with carpeting, unless the buyers pull it up. You could not use any chemical cleaning products. Did I post this list? I will look for it again.


That’s one breeder. My breeder doesn’t feed raw, vaccinates appropriately, and I can use whatever vet I want. Raising a litter with Puppy Culture isn’t about the crazy restrictions of that breeder.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> That’s one breeder. My breeder doesn’t feed raw, vaccinates appropriately, and I can use whatever vet I want. Raising a litter with Puppy Culture isn’t about the crazy restrictions of that breeder.


There is more. This is from the author of the puppy culture. Puppies can’t jump higher than their own wrists, or use stairs. Tug toys must be held near the ground. Exercise and walks up st be limited and recommendations followed.

Maybe your breeder moved away from the rigid guidelines, but as I said, I read a lot and if a breeder follows the rules exactly, they are extremely limited.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

If anyone is interested, feel free to go to the Austerlitz website and read (in great detail) about how she raises puppies with Puppy Culture. 







How We Raise Our Puppies | Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs







austerlitzshepherds.com


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> If anyone is interested, feel free to go to the Austerlitz website and read (in great detail) about how she raises puppies with Puppy Culture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I will. I don’t want to argue. I’m trying to learn too.

Some of the extremes I posted came from their own page.








APPROPRIATE EXERCISE


PUPPY FITNESS THAT FITS THE PUPPY Age Appropriate Exercise Guidelines By Jane Killion Director of the film “Puppy Culture - The Critical First 12 Weeks That Can Shape Your Puppy’s Future” THERE'S AN IDEA that’s caught on like wildfire that exercise is some kind panacea that will solve all...




shoppuppyculture.com


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

OP has disappeared😔 I love when people ask what breeder are recommended. I like to look at the different breeders.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sorry. I’m just getting frustrated, especially since I have a dog that was raised with PC.. I just know there’s a difference between raising puppies using the program, and then selling those puppies on whatever crazy contract the breeder wants. 

My breeder was basically doing all the Puppy Culture stuff anyway, she just didn’t know about it. We found it interesting and fun to have each week all mapped out. I didn’t get in on this litter until they were 4 weeks old, but watched the DVDs to catch up with that first month. We did lots of walking in the woods, watching them climbing over logs, exploring, diving into bushes, chasing a bunny. Back in the yard, they played in tunnels, went up and down the stairs to the deck, walking through the rings of a ladder that was on the ground, etc. 

Puppy party was fun. One of the puppies knocked a walker over. They all jumped and then immediately ran over to the walker to see what made the racket. These are the kind of puppies I like.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

dogfaeries said:


> Sorry. I’m just getting frustrated, especially since I have a dog that was raised with PC.. I just know there’s a difference between raising puppies using the program, and then selling those puppies on whatever crazy contract the breeder wants.
> 
> My breeder was basically doing all the Puppy Culture stuff anyway, she just didn’t know about it. We found it interesting and fun to have each week all mapped out. I didn’t get in on this litter until they were 4 weeks old, but watched the DVDs to catch up with that first month. We did lots of walking in the woods, watching them climbing over logs, exploring, diving into bushes, chasing a bunny. Back in the yard, they played in tunnels, went up and down the stairs to the deck, walking through the rings of a ladder that was on the ground, etc.
> 
> Puppy party was fun. One of the puppies knocked a walker over. They all jumped and then immediately ran over to the walker to see what made the racket. These are the kind of puppies I like.


There's no need to apologize. I don't really know what PC is, but I'm looking at the links on this page, and so far it looks awesome. It's great that the puppies turn out extremely well when the breeder does PC. My dog is one of the dogs who really could have used PC. 

You got to hang out with 4 week old puppies?! That's awesome!

I like those puppies too!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Shadow Shep said:


> OP has disappeared😔 I love when people ask what breeder are recommended. I like to look at the different breeders.


I am going to stop posting or start deleting any posts made on threads where the OP disappears. They tend to just start arguments between the other members.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am going to stop posting or start deleting any posts made on threads where the OP disappears. They tend to just start arguments between the other members.


I’ve noticed that too. It’s also suspicious when the dog in their picture is not a German Shepherd, but they don’t care enough to return and learn more about the breed. People can say anything they want to on a public forum. Those of us who are active members tend to know each other because we interact a lot. I used to call those kinds of posters “hit and run.” They don’t stop and take the time to address the havoc they create.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’ve noticed that too. It’s also suspicious when the dog in their picture is not a German Shepherd, but they don’t care enough to return and learn more about the breed. People can say anything they want to on a public forum. Those of us who are active members tend to know each other because we interact a lot. I used to call those kinds of posters “hit and run.” They don’t stop and take the time to address the havoc they create.


Hey! Hey! Hey! My avatar isn't German Shepherds either! 😁 

I like hit and run. It's fitting.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> If anyone is interested, feel free to go to the Austerlitz website and read (in great detail) about how she raises puppies with Puppy Culture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing that!

I don't really know much about this Puppy Culture thing, but your breeders description of how pups are raised seems really similar to how I raised litters. Some of the details are different but pretty much the same idea. Not sure I would get hung up on a name, my guess is a lot of breeders are doing it without naming it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hey! Hey! Hey! My avatar isn't German Shepherds either! 😁
> 
> I like hit and run. It's fitting.


Two Mals are better than one. I want to know how you always get such perfect action shots. One of my dogs leaped right over the other one and I didn't even have a camera in. my hand.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Two Mals are better than one. I want to know how you always get such perfect action shots. One of my dogs leaped right over the other one and I didn't even have a camera in. my hand.


I almost always have my phone and I take lots of pictures.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I almost always have my phone and I take lots of pictures.


You got my picture! Same activity, different dogs. And it was not snowing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> You got my picture! Same activity, different dogs. And it was not snowing.


Sometimes I just sit in the backyard with the better camera and keep the camera focused on them. When they start fooling around, I just start continuous shooting.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sometimes I just sit in the backyard with the better camera and keep the camera focused on them. When they start fooling around, I just start continuous shooting


Darn, they are cute. That wooly bear.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Darn, they are cute. That wooly bear.


He was a wooly little bear. There was no grooming him.


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’ve noticed that too. It’s also suspicious when the dog in their picture is not a German Shepherd, but they don’t care enough to return and learn more about the breed. People can say anything they want to on a public forum. Those of us who are active members tend to know each other because we interact a lot. I used to call those kinds of posters “hit and run.” They don’t stop and take the time to address the havoc they create.


sorry for not responding to every message containing completely unrelated chaos that was added to my post. i asked for breeder recommendations and instead received an odd interrogation on why i would prefer a breeder that uses puppy culture to raise their puppies. when an online community is this unwelcoming, dont expect people to want to hang around. also, i have a life outside of the internet. apologies that i wasnt sitting at the edge of my seat waiting for unrelated and aggressive responses from people who quite frankly seem to be on here to be gatekeepers rather than educators.

the dog in my picture isnt a german shepherd because i dont have a german shepherd, hence why i was asking for breeder recommendations. no need to criticize my dog just because it isnt the same breed as yours. since youre concerned about how im learning about the breed, ive found a much more knowledgeable and kind community for me to ask questions in


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@heyitsfour You are right, we got off topic. I got very hung up on some of the details you posted and didn’t notice we derailed the thread. It sounds like you no longer need help, but if you do, someone must know of breeders who have the qualifications you are looking for. I was thrown because I started out with an enormous list when I got my last dog and didn’t find one that had all you were asking for. It’s not that it isn’t possible, but the more limitations one puts, the harder it is to locate a good breeder who fits every one.


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> @heyitsfour You are right, we got off topic. I got very hung up on some of the details you posted and didn’t notice we derailed the thread. It sounds like you no longer need help, but if you do, someone must know of breeders who have the qualifications you are looking for. I was thrown because I started out with an enormous list when I got my last dog and didn’t find one that had all you were asking for. It’s not that it isn’t possible, but the more limitations one puts, the harder it is to locate a good breeder who fits every one.


im fully aware, but i also know that the more specific i am about what i want, the more likely i am to find a breeder who will give me the dog of my dreams. ive pretty much decided on a breeder, which is very exciting, and they fit exactly what i was looking for with the added bonus of being just 40 mins away from me!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Wonderful and I apologize for not being more considerate.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

heyitsfour said:


> sorry for not responding to every message containing completely unrelated chaos that was added to my post. i asked for breeder recommendations and instead received an odd interrogation on why i would prefer a breeder that uses puppy culture to raise their puppies. when an online community is this unwelcoming, dont expect people to want to hang around. also, i have a life outside of the internet. apologies that i wasnt sitting at the edge of my seat waiting for unrelated and aggressive responses from people who quite frankly seem to be on here to be gatekeepers rather than educators.
> 
> the dog in my picture isnt a german shepherd because i dont have a german shepherd, hence why i was asking for breeder recommendations. no need to criticize my dog just because it isnt the same breed as yours. since youre concerned about how im learning about the breed, ive found a much more knowledgeable and kind community for me to ask questions in


In all fairness, your asking for a breeder that uses Puppy Culture was the odd request. As you can tell from the responses on here, Puppy Culture just isn't something that workingline German Shepherd breeders use. I have never heard of it done with this breed. 

In your opening posts, you stated that you have had opportunity to observe workingline pups raised with Puppy Culture by breeders. I would appreciate if you linked to those breeders as I would really like to see the results they are getting and maybe even correspond with the breeders to learn more about it.


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## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> In all fairness, your asking for a breeder that uses Puppy Culture was the odd request. As you can tell from the responses on here, Puppy Culture just isn't something that workingline German Shepherd breeders use. I have never heard of it done with this breed.
> 
> In your opening posts, you stated that you have had opportunity to observe workingline pups raised with Puppy Culture by breeders. I would appreciate if you linked to those breeders as I would really like to see the results they are getting and maybe even correspond with the breeders to learn more about it.


off the top of my head these are the only two i can recall  might edit with more later if i can remember any.





Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs | Producing outstanding German Shepherds Since 1995







austerlitzshepherds.com






https://rodinastraze.com/


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I like much about the Austerlitz site but their dogs I found pedigrees for are WGSL not WL.

Rodina Straze has all WL. I see PohranicnI Straze and similar in their lines. My dogs has some Czech Border patrol and high drive.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

heyitsfour said:


> ive pretty much decided on a breeder, which is very exciting, and they fit exactly what i was looking for with the added bonus of being just 40 mins away from me!


May I ask for the breeder info?


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

I'm a breeder and I use puppy culture. Some of the things in this program are super helpful.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Hexenrudel said:


> I'm a breeder and I use puppy culture. Some of the things in this program are super helpful.


Can you please elaborate on as to what the program entails that is so different from what some people already do and the expected results? I don't think most members here fully understand the program.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hexenrudel said:


> I'm a breeder and I use puppy culture. Some of the things in this program are super helpful.


Please expound on your experiences.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's an adaptation of the military "super dog" program. Basically stressing young puppies in ways they usually aren't for a few seconds each day when very young.

It has shown good results in military dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's an adaptation of the military "super dog" program. Basically stressing young puppies in ways they usually aren't for a few seconds each day when very young.
> 
> It has shown good results in military dogs.


Thanks Tim.
I'm adware of the program. I'm looking for first hand experiences.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's an adaptation of the military "super dog" program. Basically stressing young puppies in ways they usually aren't for a few seconds each day when very young.
> 
> It has shown good results in military dogs.


That's what I was thinking. I wonder what are the longterm results of the biosensor rearing and what are the differences between the two programs. Surely the military isn't rearing puppies to be docile as is one of the goals of Puppy Culture from what I can figure out.


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## DeeJn (Sep 9, 2020)

For you all that want to know more about 'Puppy Culture' there is a Facebook group devoted to that . There you will find first hand experiences of people with all sorts of breeds that have and are using it. The group is called 'Puppy Culture Breeders'.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

For those of us who don’t use Facebook, I’d like to hear more here about how it’s used with German Shepherds. I’m not interested in use with other breeds.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I'm also wondering about how the dogs turn out who have been raised with Puppy Culture. Can someone post a like of the Puppy Culture Breeder's Facebook please? I can't find it.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

What do you mean by “turned out”? My dog Scarlet was raised with Puppy Culture. She just turned 4. What do you want to know about her?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I always imagined "ens" was developed for like sterile govt laboratory controlled climate use? I've discussed "ens" use with numerous breeders over the last? I think it's been at least 30 yrs since battaglia published his original article?
I've known some "utility room/basement" type breeders who swore the difference is night and day, and I've known some outdoor "oil drum/wooden shipping crate" type breeders who tried it and swore it made no observable difference.









Bio-Sensor is Bad Science: Super Dog Failed


There was much hype put out by the biosensor program early in the process, long before they had any real results to brag about: By 1980 we will have a […]




www.border-wars.com





personal opinions aside, either the program was discontinued or it wasn't? A litter reared outdoors in a box on straw is considerably more "stimulated" than anything I see in the vid, so it's hard for me to imagine any harm is done by battaglia's thing?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> For those of us who don’t use Facebook, I’d like to hear more here about how it’s used with German Shepherds. I’m not interested in use with other breeds.


True. Even in the German Shepherd community, we are all not striving to achieve the same results with our dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> What do you mean by “turned out”? My dog Scarlet was raised with Puppy Culture. She just turned 4. What do you want to know about her?


Not about her but what mark "imprinting", (is that the correct term?), was supposed to make on her. Honestly, I have heard of the program for years and it ends there. I have no idea what the program is about.

I have had some bad experiences with breeders mucking with my dogs before I got them so it is a particular area of interest for me. I know of one popular and reputable breeder that has come under fire for imprinting puppies to a great degree causing others to ask what is being masked in the process. 

IMO, exposure is to show you what the puppy brings to the table, strengths and weaknesses, and I can base my expectations on what I observe. I want to see the raw genetics. My dogs work. I depend on them. There is no margin of error when your health and welfare may depend on them.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I always imagined "ens" was developed for like sterile govt laboratory controlled climate use? I've discussed "ens" use with numerous breeders over the last? I think it's been at least 30 yrs since battaglia published his original article?
> I've known some "utility room/basement" type breeders who swore the difference is night and day, and I've known some outdoor "oil drum/wooden shipping crate" type breeders who tried it and swore it made no observable difference.
> 
> 
> ...


Berno, you did good. Fantastic links!

So the initial Puppy Culture program is NOT the Puppy Culture program but the military Biosensor program. That's a bit misleading.

Berno, get to work and find out the rest of the program and expected results.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> personal opinions aside, either the program was discontinued or it wasn't? A litter reared outdoors in a box on straw is considerably more "stimulated" than anything I see in the vid, so it's hard for me to imagine any harm is done by battaglia's thing?


You know Berno, I agree with you here. I guess the only real way for me to get a satisfactory answer would be to buy the dvds myself. I don’t use Facebook.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> You know Berno, I agree with you here. I guess the only real way for me to get a satisfactory answer would be to buy the dvds myself. I don’t use Facebook.


I would hold off on buying them yet. Apparently the first part is the military Biosensor program which can be gotten for free on the internet. See what Berno digs up for the rest of it before you spend money on a set of puppy socialization dvds.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

well don't look at me? I'm stumped? might be legit? might be hocus pocus? If I remember right, this is pretty close to the paper that circulated years ago: Early Neurological Stimulation | Breeding Better Dogs.

not for nothin' but I'm not a huge fan of public sector research. very inefficient.

I'm definitely into "imprinting" but I've never used q tips. I'm more the_ live fire exercise_ type, if you know what I mean I'm totally going to plagiarize canczech's puppy zipline program here. I can't resist.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> well don't look at me? I'm stumped? might be legit? might be hocus pocus? If I remember right, this is pretty close to the paper that circulated years ago: Early Neurological Stimulation | Breeding Better Dogs.
> 
> not for nothin' but I'm not a huge fan of public sector research. very inefficient.
> 
> I'm definitely into "imprinting" but I've never used q tips. I'm more the_ live fire exercise_ type, if you know what I mean I'm totally going to plagiarize canczech's puppy zipline program here. I can't resist.


Jury is still out but I did spend a little time on Austerlitz Facebook page. Seems to be heavy on imprinting at a glance. I am not sure what part(s) is Puppy Culture vs the breeder's personal choice. Either way, one part stated that it was to lower reactivity. I wish they would have defined reactivity as it relates to, if at all, to thresholds.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Do you guys remember Kim from Pirates Lair?He does a lot of this kind of thing with his puppies. He used to post videos sometimes.I don't remember the name of his website though.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Do you guys remember Kim from Pirates Lair?He does a lot of this kind of thing with his puppies. He used to post videos sometimes.I don't remember the name of his website though.


Canczech, same place where Chip got his dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

OkI'm a day late and a dollar short again.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't know canczech from pirate's lair, but I do know this kind of imprinting/conditioning is definitely not hocus pocus.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I wish [puppy culture] would have defined reactivity as it relates to, if at all, to thresholds.


 that's _way above _my pay grade


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't know canczech from pirate's lair, but I do know this kind of imprinting/conditioning is definitely not hocus pocus.
> 
> 
> 
> that's _way above _my pay grade


What happens if the pup is not environmentally stable, has been well imprinted environmentally, but encounters something down the road that he has not been imprinted for?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

what are our options? seems to me we only have 2:

A) expose a litter to all sorts of healthy environmental stimuli and attempt to select the most confident and outgoing

B) isolate/deny environmental stimuli for the sake of bringing totally "green" litters to market

I'm firmly in the A camp. I've never shoved a pup into a tunnel, but I watch for the ones that naturally go for the tunnel and offer them progressively bigger challenges.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> what are our options? seems to me we only have 2:
> 
> A) expose a litter to all sorts of healthy environmental stimuli and attempt to select the most confident and outgoing
> 
> ...


A) tests for the nature of the dog, not the nurture (imprinting), then selects the pup(s), if any, born with the right stuff. You are not in Camp A as you have no problem with a breeder that imprints a puppy to make it appear that it has the right stuff whether it does or does not. 

B) nobody suggested option b, I choose option A and then I will work on the strengths and weaknesses per my personal wants and needs. MY is the key word there.

So you are saying that you look for pups that would naturally go to a tunnel and offer it more? That's not imprinting or training. That's genetics. The key to finding what you say you are looking for is in the genetics, not the breeder's raising and training although at such an early age, both can appear the same. 

The devil is in the details.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So you are saying that you look for pups that would naturally go to a tunnel and offer it more? That's not imprinting or training. That's genetics. The key to finding what you say you are looking for is in the genetics, not the breeder's raising and training although at such an early age, both can appear the same.
> 
> The devil is in the details.


the devil is in the window of opportunity from wean to vpat. Exposure = imprinting to the extent that said individuals seem to graduate from my program somewhat enhanced. I've more or less tried it both ways, and the difference is night and day. I can't support with any citations, but my own observations were clear enough.

*pg 3: "Research shows* that social bonding between dogs and small ruminants depends on imprinting the puppies when they are roughly four to sixteen weeks old. This developmental stage will “set” the dog’s adult behavior. In other words, *imprinting changes the dog forever*."

so there's a least_ that window. _Perhaps "headstart" type puppy exposure/imprint programs such as the the pirate's lair video exploit the same window? That's above my pay grade as well. All I know is, it works for me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> the devil is in the window of opportunity from wean to vpat. Exposure = imprinting to the extent that said individuals seem to graduate from my program somewhat enhanced. I've more or less tried it both ways, and the difference is night and day. I can't support with any citations, but my own observations were clear enough.
> 
> *pg 3: "Research shows* that social bonding between dogs and small ruminants depends on imprinting the puppies when they are roughly four to sixteen weeks old. This developmental stage will “set” the dog’s adult behavior. In other words, *imprinting changes the dog forever*."
> 
> so there's a least_ that window. _Perhaps "headstart" type puppy exposure/imprint programs such as the video above exploit the same window? That's above my pay grade as well. All I know is, it works for me.


I approach it from the front door. I buy pups whose breeders are skilled and experienced in pairing appropriate dogs to produce stable traits. Of course there will be variations in a litter, but there is no need for excessive exposure. As I stated earlier, for me exposure is more of a test to determine the genetics in front of me. I have no interest in building a Frankenstein that may fail just when I need them the most. My dogs work for real.

I think the critical point that you are missing is that the LGDs in those studies have been genetically bred to have an affinity for the livestock in the first place. Putting young pups with the livestock and keeping them there only enhances the genetics they are born with and may possibly redirect natural attractions, such as to sheep, to maybe goats or geese. 

My Heeler is from working line. She drives large and unruly German Shepherds. She was not imprinted to drive anything. Lacking cattle, she redirected to big dogs. Works for me and her. Now when a dog is out on property and can't hear me calling, I send the Heeler out to go get them. No playing in the yard, she is serious about her work and drives them into the house. You can say she is acting on her genetics because I wouldn't have a clue where to begin to teach her how to drive half wild cattle. Life in the city.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

gsd are genetically encoded to walk tightropes, but if that's your goal, it's best to start them very early on. You can't expect a green dog to "just get up there and do it, 'cause genetics."


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> Do you guys remember Kim from Pirates Lair?He does a lot of this kind of thing with his puppies. He used to post videos sometimes.I don't remember the name of his website though.


Yes.


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