# Looking for a specific pairing/line



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have come across a few breeders with these lines and have kept a very close eye on them over the last few years. 

I am very curious to see if I am missing someone from my list. I have a few people keeping their ears and eyes open for me as well in my area through the clubs and people I have worked with as well.

I thought I had another lead but turns out, it was a false lead.

Any suggestions would be great. 

The pairing I am looking for would be any progeny from:

Xant ( VYBORNY Xant z Jirkova dvora ) and Puci ( 5V1/P, VELMI DOBRY Puci Jipo-Me ).

I am also looking for dogs from Norbo Ben-Ju ( VELMI DOBRY NORBO BEN-JU) or Dargo ( SG Dargo Ha-Ja-Da CS ) . 

These are the lines I have been around for years and have admired. I would appreciate any information anyone is able to give. Having worked with a Xant/Puci grand-daughter has made me fall in love with them even more. The dogs I have watched by these two are spectacular as well, a good mix of sport and real.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Jean Schrader at SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs has some dogs that go back to Norbo. She recently bought an import female that goes back to Norbo, too: VD Bára z Ronbaru

Weberhaus has a young female that is right what you're looking for:

Lyra Jipo-Me

This kennel also has a young female from that litter:

Our Females -  Hosting by iPagelank Title


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Norbo and Dargo are a wonderful source of solid nerve and good drives, but not extreme drives. Excellent working aptitudes come from both. PM me for more info cause too much detail hurts some members eyes.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> Norbo and Dargo are a wonderful source of solid nerve and good drives, but not extreme drives. Excellent working aptitudes come from both. PM me for more info cause too much detail hurts some members eyes.


Not mine


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Jean Schrader at SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs has some dogs that go back to Norbo. She recently bought an import female that goes back to Norbo, too: VD Bára z Ronbaru
> 
> Weberhaus has a young female that is right what you're looking for:
> 
> ...


Malinda and I have been conversing through FB for a little while now, discussing our females (Zefra has identical bottom to these females). 

I will check out the other kennels as well. Thank you.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Norbo and Dargo are a wonderful source of solid nerve and good drives, but not extreme drives. Excellent working aptitudes come from both. PM me for more info cause too much detail hurts some members eyes.


Cliff, I know you know what I tend to like, due to the MANY times I have asked you to help with pedigree reading... LOL. 

I will definitely PM you when I get a chance this week. I have some good information I believe and would like your opinion on it as well. 

Thank you once again for being so helpful!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Some of us enjoy learning from you, Cliff. And from Doc too.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Justde....which of the two(Norbo & Dargo) is the mother to your dog:wub:.?


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

Cliff, copy that PM to me as well, just in case there's something in it that I don't know yet 

Elisabeth, I have dogs very close to the ones you mentioned. Mambo x Puci son and his offspring, Norbo lineage dogs (as well as a male linebred 3-3 on Norbo), and I own Dargo Ha-Ja-Da semen, not used yet. 

What exactly do you want to know about these lines?

Ang


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I'd like to also be in on the learning!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Me three!!! Please put me on that PM list


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liberatore said:


> and I own Dargo Ha-Ja-Da semen, not used yet.


Awesome!! Plans? How cool is that! Would love to see young Dargo offspring around!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Liberatore said:


> Cliff, copy that PM to me as well, just in case there's something in it that I don't know yet
> 
> Elisabeth, I have dogs very close to the ones you mentioned. Mambo x Puci son and his offspring, Norbo lineage dogs (as well as a male linebred 3-3 on Norbo), and I own Dargo Ha-Ja-Da semen, not used yet.
> 
> ...


Hi Ang, 

I would DEFINITELY be interested in your plans for the Dargo semen... can I please PM you for specifics?


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

Cliff...neither LOL Hungry for knowledge, was referring to the statement @ hurting some members' eyes.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

A bit off topic, but what means VYBORNY and VELMY DOBRY?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Vyborny....excellent, the other is very good.
@justde.....what I meant was the other dogs in your dogs pedigree could be source of what you see.....lol


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Vyborny....excellent, the other is very good.
> @justde.....what I meant was the other dogs in your dogs pedigree could be source of what you see.....lol


That's what people miss a lot, male line is only 50% of the equation (give or take due to sex linked traits). What's the bitch line bringing to the table?

Elisabeth, as for the Dargo semen, no plans as of yet, still putting together the female I want to use it on. I might do a breeding with a female I have already but I'm not certain, I need to see another litter from her before I decide. Feel free to PM or email me though.

Ang


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Ang, I am not in any hurry that's for sure.

I am still in the process of titling my youngest (she is Xant/Puci on the bottom) and would like her to have her 1 or 2 before I bring another in, so definitely no rush.

Dargo is one of my favorite dogs, always has been.

I actually found your website and viewed a few videos of your dogs - funny thing was, I already had your website book marked and a few videos saved... LOL.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ang, debbieb is a good internet friend of mine, (she has sam) am always oogling over your dogs someday I'll have to come up that way and meet them


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> @justde.....what I meant was the other dogs in your dogs pedigree could be source of what you see.....lol


Swish...right over my head LOL Now the question about the males being the mother makes sense  Agree...always so much emphasis on only one or two dogs, usually the males, in a pedigree. Typically, the "biggest" names.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Norbo and Dargo are a wonderful source of solid nerve and good drives, but not extreme drives. Excellent working aptitudes come from both. PM me for more info cause too much detail hurts some members eyes.


Can I have a copy of this PM too, please? Details never hurt my eyes much.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Can I have a copy of this PM too, please? Details never hurt my eyes much.



Me too please I really want to learn!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So instead of pm'ing everyone, how bout sharing it publicly? Hurt eyes is a good thing....and those that don't want to read it can keep their blinders on!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have a multitude of questions and some things I would like to discuss... but I just worked a 14 hour day after a 67 hour work week.... so, with my only day off being tomorrow - once the dogs are worked and played with then I will compile my public PM (if Cliff wouldn't mind since he has so many fans!  ) and post. 

Anyone else with questions, please feel free to jump in... mine are specific to these lines.. but feel free to jump in!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am totally a Cliff fan - whatever he posts is GOLDEN.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, so this is a long time coming.. lol.. but I have been working anywhere from 60-90 hours per week... so... lol.

A few things.. kinda observations and questions rolled into one. I am not sure what I really want to ask or know at this point so I guess my random thoughts are going to be thrown out there and take from it what you will, correct me where I need it and help me along the way to form some sort of coherent thought please.

The one Xant/Puci daughter that I know VERY well (both in a working and home atmosphere) is quite confident. She is good with other dogs and excellent with people. She is a dog who will work for you if you have a toy or ball just because she wants to work. She will work just as well for praise as she will for the reward/toy/ball. She is also lower energy (I would say medium/high) but has extremely balanced drives and does not react right away, she will assess the situation first. She excels at herding and tracking and although her obedience is not very flashy, I believe it could be if her drives were triggered better/more. The handler works her very quietly and I do not believe you are seeing the "whole dog" during this phase of training. She is also quite handler sensitive and a verbal correction would be enough for her. A physical correction during protection will not do anything to this dog, but during obedience (when not in drive) will make her work even harder to please her handler. She does not drive forward in protection but takes a stance and waits for the decoy to engage her. With the other dogs she is quite dominant and pushy but not obsessive about it and definitely very clear headed about what needs correcting and what doesn't. In public she is extremely social with people, kids and anyone else. She does well with other dogs as well. She will search for her ball, food or tug for hours if allowed. 

The second dog I have met was a female at a club I visited a few times and if wasn't for the drive, would be a member of. The dog Hillsviews Sonia is more like my Zefra in temperament and drive. I see more similarities in this dog to my Zefra than to Zefra's own dam. More drive, a little more prey than defense, quick to react, harder to cap when in drive, a little edgy and doesn't like to out. Pushes forward, likes the fight.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Elizabeth, your post is very interesting. I have a 6 month puppy whose father is a son of Puci Jipo Me. Your description of the Xant/Puci dog is almost identical to this puppy. My puppy is incredibly athletic, with uncanny intelligence to figure stuff out. (Carmen you would LOVE this puppy....your type!)
This puppy has tremendous nerve, will go anywhere anytime with no hesitation and I mean heights, darkness, slippery floors, heating grates, wire, mesh surfaces, anything...and he does this with confidence. This puppy also is fearless in face of threat....nice balance of prey/defense drive. Always barks with deep authoritative bark and never has taken the shrill screeching prey bark.
Now I note the common denominator of Puci Jipo Me. From what I have heard she produced incredible soundness. Notice she comes over Norbo as I noted in an earlier post. Norbos sire Car z K.........., was known for producing dogs with incredible train ability and intuitiveness. When mixed with the right dam line he could also produce very very strong dogs such as Honza Okal, which is a dog that is known for producing very strong LE type dogs. 
Carmen, what do you see in Puci.?......one last note about the bidability of Car progeny, many of you have read about the dog Andy Maly Vah and his incredible versatility in training and title....well his mother was Nessie Ben Ju, sister to Norbo and also out of Car.....see the connection?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Elizabeth, your post is very interesting. I have a 6 month puppy whose father is a son of Puci Jipo Me. Your description of the Xant/Puci dog is almost identical to this puppy. My puppy is incredibly athletic, with uncanny intelligence to figure stuff out. (Carmen you would LOVE this puppy....your type!)
> This puppy has tremendous nerve, will go anywhere anytime with no hesitation and I mean heights, darkness, slippery floors, heating grates, wire, mesh surfaces, anything...and he does this with confidence. This puppy also is fearless in face of threat....nice balance of prey/defense drive. Always barks with deep authoritative bark and never has taken the shrill screeching prey bark.
> one last note about the bidability of Car progeny, many of you have read about the dog Andy Maly Vah and his incredible versatility in training and title....*well his mother was Nessie Ben Ju, sister to Norbo and also out of Car*.....see the connection?


This is really interesting!

I look forward to see how the pups turn out from your 6 month's old litter. Besides their gorgeous looks, they are everything I'd want(I see two of them often).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In all fairness, the dam of my puppy is also very very strong. And of course she contributes a big piece also. But there are two pups out of this litter I see every week, the other is more drives and probably gets that from the dam side....but both pups are super confident. (The mother is a Wildhaus dog and I consider Chris a visionary in terms of breeding for now and the future)
Anyway, it's always about balancing traits for a good well rounded dog. Jmo.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Cliff - VERY interesting.

I was going to write more but it was very late and I was very tired.

What I noticed (and what other people who are more experienced than me pointed out) about my Zefra (she is only Czech on the bottom) is that she starts out in prey but the moment the decoy (or any threat) raises a hand at her in a threatening manner, she is all business. As she matures, I can start to see the difference (with the help of my trainers) between a prey move/bark and a defensive one (please remember I am just starting to learn!). She can switch back and forth if the threat retreats, so does she. Very interesting to see her be able to switch back and forth. 

She is great with heights, flooring and noise. We did have an issue at the SV show with the gun shot going off - but, granted (and I know everyone says this) she had NEVER reacted like that before to one - and she has been around gun shot A LOT (hunting with my Dad, at training, etc.). She has no problem going through small tunnels, spaces or climbing on things, etc. 

She is also super social with people - almost to a fault, but this is getting better. She will actually wait now for them to invite her over for a hello. She would stretch her neck out so far and wiggle her whole body if someone even glanced at her before.. lol. Going from a people reactive dog to a dog who wants to be everyone's best friend - I will take the latter.. lol.

Zefra is also extremely biddable and has AMAZING handler focus. I never really "taught" her that but I definitely did enforce/capitalize on it! It doesn't matter what is going on around her, who is around, what is around, I have her undivided attention at all times - even without asking.. lol. We will be at the park, kids, dogs, bikes, birds, squirrels, etc. all around us and she will stand there staring at me waiting for me to give her a command. She has also been known to go into fronts and fuss just to get my attention - focus never wavering. From what people here know about Stark, my male - you can probably imagine how delighted I am over this part of her.

One thing that she does have a harder time doing is settling in the house though. Even with sufficient exercise both mental and physical she will not settle as nicely as Stark. If your up, she is up, if the cat is up, she is up, she does get up and down and grab a toy. She will entertain herself, but has a hard time settling unless told too. She doesn't get into trouble or mess with anything in the house, but can not really "settle" herself for more than a 1/2 hour at a time. It doesn't bother me too much since Stark is such a couch potato.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Cliff - your puppy sounds exactly what I like. I do however, like the higher energy for sport. Being a new handler who doesn't know a whole lot just yet - the higher energy and drive makes it easier on me!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Cliff - VERY interesting.
> 
> I was going to write more but it was very late and I was very tired.
> 
> ...


Thought I would clarify this for people. 

The issue was her not cowering or retreating in any manner. 

When the gun went off near her, she pushed forward and barked. I have a video of this as well and would be very interested in hearing thoughts on her reaction. I never brought it up before or showed it but would be interested in hearing thoughts. I would also be interested in knowing 'where' the reaction came from.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is she use to having whip cracking during protection work? Maybe not with her session but with other dogs that she can hear while they are training? Exciting noises even if the dog isn't doing the session themselves. 
Gunshots remind Karlo of the whip, and use to ramp him up some, but now he just looks towards the noise and carries on with heeling.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Oh yes, and this is what we attributed this too.

For the SV show we were on the property where she has done protection work, next to the blind and we had just seen and spoken too the decoy who has given her a good few sessions before... lol. Plus she was in heat and ampt up already... LOL.

The whip sound does get her a little worked up for sure! We have JUST now got her to a point where we crack it and she can remain in a sit/down until told to react.. lol.


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## articuno75 (Oct 13, 2013)

My pup is from both the Norbo Ben Ju and Dargo lines. Very impressive bloodlines. I'm looking to train her in SVV and how to go about it. Been a long time since I had a German Shepherd Dog and can't wait to see her in action!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

with such limited info around on Czech lines, I really would like to gain more knowledge as well....as a learning tool, this forum needs more hard info/opinions rather than putting this in private messages....please share in any way with me as well!

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Isn't your K litter from a Czech stud owned by a man from Czech and didn't you talk to him about Czech lines


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Just an FYI, this thread is from 2012.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

Still a good one 
Sue


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee, if you are at Worlds on Friday, in the evening I will have owner of Aritar Bastet, and handler of Grim z PS and Kato Aritar Bastet( competing), along with competitor from Slovakia at Phila Pet Resort from 7 to 10. You are welcome, send me private email for more details.


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## guddu (Mar 14, 2012)

I have a 3-3 on dargo...


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## Tasha A Taylor (Apr 22, 2017)

I currently have an intact male- a grandson- of the Norbo Ben Ju line. He's almost 2yo and i acquired him from my breeder with the agreement to stud him but very selectively. His temperament is unmatched as far as laid back. He has an amazing prey drive and his food drive is very strong. To say he's a looker is an understatement! He is very regal and seems to know it! 

Ben Ju vom Wolfdame is his pedigreed name in the database.


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