# Please HELP We are DESPERATE, Wound will NOT Heal on Puppy *PICTURES*



## woogyboogy

Hi everyone, thank you for taking time to read this.

We have a 5 1/2 month old GSD named Loki, and about 3-4 weeks ago he came up with a small bump on his back, almost like a pimple, about the size of a pea that was slightly raised. We assumed it was an ant bite or something minor. About 2-3 days later we brought him into the vet to get some of his immunizations and we showed the vet this bump. He told us to use Virbac Pyoben Shampoo when we bath him and just keep a close eye on it.

We did and after 5-6 days, it got progressively worse. So we took him in the next week and he put Loki on an oral antibiotic (Ciprofloxacin) for 2 weeks. He was and still is on it for about 6 days and it still had gotten progressively worse, so we took him back the following week, where the vet seemed alot more concerned. He gave Loki an antibiotic shot, and reassured us that this SHOULD fix it.

Well, its been about 4 days since that antibiotic shot, and its STILL getting worse. The entire wound itself is about as round as a baseball, and within that circle there are several sores that are just open and about 1/16th-1/8th deep. One of the small sores will close up and another will open. If you feel the wound, you can actually grab it, the bottom of the wound is hard, it's hard to describe  .

I have been doing a lot of research and I just discovered "Manuka Honey" yesterday, people say it works miracles for wounds, and we started applying that last night and this morning, it is basically our final hope. We haven't told the vet about the Manuka Honey yet, and the last time we were in there was 4 days ago for the antibiotic shot. I've applied the Manuka Honey to the wound, then put a non adhesive dressing over it and then wrap it with an ace bandage.

The vet said if this antibiotic shot doesn't fix it, he will have to put him under and surgically remove the wound. 

He is eating, and drinking fine. We feed him Blue Large Breed Puppy food, and he eats 3 cups per day, morning, afternoon, and night. He sleeps from roughly 10pm-6:30am. But he definitely has seemed more "down" with all of this going on, and not as energetic.

Also, once the wound went from a small bump, to an actual open sore, we started applying Iodine swabs, and then Bactroban (Mupirocin) to it (about 2 weeks ago), but that hasn't helped with anything.

Loki will try to lick it, but we pretty much watch him constantly and tell him to "leave it" as soon as we see him try to go for it. Also, we haven't used a cone to prevent him from licking it, the Vet never recommenced it to us.

This is our first dog and my girlfriend and I are extremely stressed, worried, and upset with what he has been going through. If ANYONE can give us some type of input we would greatly appreciate it!

Also, The pictures of his wound are with the Manuka Honey applied to it so that's why it may seem to look wet.

Thanks you all so much!


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## qbchottu

Try vetericyn spray


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## woogyboogy

Ok the pictures should be up now.


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## qbchottu

Actually after looking at the pictures - have you had the wound biopsied ? 

Why aren't you using a cone?


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## woogyboogy

qbchottu said:


> Actually after looking at the pictures - have you had the wound biopsied ?
> 
> Why aren't you using a cone?


We haven't had the wound biopsied, the vet never mentioned it. And as far as a cone goes, we are probably going to get one today, but we watch him almost 24/7 so his chances of licking it are slim.


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## Audie1

At this point, I would go seek a second opinion from an alternate vet. That sore looks to be a bee/wasp sting or some sort of an abscess. Surgical treatment / removal may be the best option at this point


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## scarfish

don't get the cheap petsmart cone. it sucks and the little black things that snaps it together break off. call a spay/neuter clinic and ask if you can buy one from them.


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## qbchottu

Hmm... If I were you, I would remove the hair around his wound. Hair will trap debris, bacteria etc. Use a cone on him - especially at night - you never know when he might be getting at it. 

I cannot see the wound properly because of the honey. Would love to see a clear picture with the hair removed. Appears the tissue is very tough, scabbed, and almost necrotic. This is why I asked if you did a biopsy - almost looks like some precancerous lesions that show up in the (human) clinic. 

Spray vetericyn on it several times a day. I do not know about the honey so I will not speak to its efficacy. I also like Bag Balm for surface injuries.

Surgery might be a good option. Also get second recommendations from another vet.


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## woogyboogy

Thank you all for the quick responses, I will pick up a cone today and try that so he has no option to lick it. Surgery was really our last resort and we were hoping it wouldn't come to that, but if it does, it does.

I will try to get better pictures when I remove his current application of Manuka honey, so you guys can get a better look.

Also, it does drain every now and then a green/yellow ooze that is pretty thick.


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## qbchottu

Has the vet spoken to you about lancing and draining the abscess?


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## woogyboogy

qbchottu said:


> Has the vet spoken to you about lancing and draining the abscess?


On the visit where the Vet prescribed him an oral antibiotic, he did lance the original sore and drain it a little bit. That sore is now healed, but there are 3-4 other sores inside the wound area that are open sores.


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## Sunflowers

Do this three times a day and try some baby cream that contains zinc oxide before he goes to sleep at night.

A Simple Remedy to Treat Dog Skin Infection!


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## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Do this three times a day and try some baby cream that contains zinc oxide before he goes to sleep at night.
> 
> A Simple Remedy to Treat Dog Skin Infection!


We have been applying Povidone Iodine every time we re bandage his wound. But we will still continue this method.


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## wyominggrandma

I would have this removed and biopsied. There is something going on and you need to get to bottom of what it is. Don't waste anymore time with honey and sprays, get this removed and biopsied. If your vet won't do this, find one who will.


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## woogyboogy

wyominggrandma said:


> I would have this removed and biopsied. There is something going on and you need to get to bottom of what it is. Don't waste anymore time with honey and sprays, get this removed and biopsied. If your vet won't do this, find one who will.


We are going to take him to the Vet again tomorrow and bring up the topic or surgery, If he doesn't want to do it then we will go to another vet, I agree with you. We were just hoping it wouldn't come down to this.


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## carmspack

USNEA ---- used as antibacterial , antifungal , effective against MRSA , flesh eating bacteria - will clean it out.
When that is done , then I would use the Vetericyn to clean out and help skin heal.

You can get manuka oil , you can get bees' propolis


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## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> USNEA ---- used as antibacterial , antifungal , effective against MRSA , flesh eating bacteria - will clean it out.
> When that is done , then I would use the Vetericyn to clean out and help skin heal.
> 
> You can get manuka oil , you can get bees' propolis


Is this a cream or an oil, and do you think they would sell it at a Health Food Store?


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## GatorBytes

Did you apply any flea/tick/HW spot on (topical) or oral (like trifexis)?

As long as it's oozing, infection is leaving the body.


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## hev1128

This looks really yucky. I don't have any helpful insight except go to another vet ASAP.
We discovered that not all vets are created equal. 
get a second opinion ASAP.


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## woogyboogy

Here are new pictures with no topical ointments on it. Let me know what you think...this is very stressful.


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## woogyboogy

GatorBytes said:


> Did you apply any flea/tick/HW spot on (topical) or oral (like trifexis)?
> 
> As long as it's oozing, infection is leaving the body.


Yes we did but not to the actual wound itself.

And yeah the oozing is good, it isn't constant but its a good sign I guess

*NEW PICTURES ARE ON THE LAST POST ON PAGE 2*


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## qbchottu

I recommend seeing another vet - preferably a veterinary center or teaching hospital. They will have more knowledge on rarer issues. 

I think this will have to be removed. Looks quite bad. Think he is past the point of responding topically.


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## qbchottu

Remove and shave the hair about an inch around his wound. Let it breathe and don't let hair trap moisture near the wound


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## Lilie

qbchottu said:


> Remove and shave the hair about an inch around his wound. Let it breathe and don't let hair trap moisture near the wound


I agree - do not wrap it.


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## farnln

Could it be a spider bite? If it is a recluse bite it may not get better on its own and will spread.
We just went through this, but our vet removed the area right away. It is nothing to mess around with.


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## carmspack

USNEA is a tincture . Go to a well stocked health food store and ask the staff member .
http://www.urbanherbschool.ca/blog/community-herbalism/treating-a-staph-infection-with-herbs.html

Also effective is grapefruit seed extract --- then a high lauric acid coconut oil after . There are different qualities of coconut oil, some barely having the active ingredients that you are in need of .
Help the detox process via diet. Add nettles, dandelion greens, burdock .


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## my boy diesel

i would also ask the vet to surgically remove it
maybe try the laser therapy to it as well 
if your vet does not do it call around to one who does

you can sit around trying herbals but this imo needs addressed surgically because there is not a lot of skin or muscle in that area
if this infection gets into the spinal cord you are going to be looking at a whole nother issue
also ask the vet to do a culture and sensitivity on this wound to determine which antibiotic would best kll the infection


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## GatorBytes

GatorBytes said:


> Did you apply any flea/tick/HW spot on (topical) or oral (like trifexis)?
> 
> As long as it's oozing, infection is leaving the body.





woogyboogy said:


> Yes we did but not to the actual wound itself.
> 
> And yeah the oozing is good, it isn't constant but its a good sign I guess
> 
> *NEW PICTURES ARE ON THE LAST POST ON PAGE 2*


 
What did you use? When?

You have a 5.5 month old pup. Fragile immune system, vaccines, antibiotics and pesticide use.

That's the problem.

Bovine colostrum to assist the immune system, RAW diet to avoid the plethora of toxins in the kibble (which includes the vit./min mix usually manufactured in china).

I would make a compress out of some healing herbs (tea bags) the Usnea Carmen mentioned, can use goldenseal, pau d' arco, bilberry. activated charcoal applied to bread and milk poultice wrap in plastic and secure with first aid paper tape and warp the body as you are doing now

Bath the puppy using Dawn dish soap (this is the advice from the pesticide pet product companies) to remove the inert ingredients that move the pesticide along the skin


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## Sunflowers

Oh dear.

Now that I see how massive and discolored it is, I would definitely see a veterinary dermatologist. That is way beyond a little cream or a little iodine.


Where are you located?


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## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Now that I see how massive and discolored it is, I would definitely see a veterinary dermatologist. That is way beyond a little cream or a little iodine.
> 
> 
> Where are you located?


I am in Punta Gorda, its about 40 minutes south of Sarasota.


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## N Smith

farnln said:


> Could it be a spider bite? If it is a recluse bite it may not get better on its own and will spread.
> We just went through this, but our vet removed the area right away. It is nothing to mess around with.


This is the very first thing that came to mind with the quick progression and nature of the wound.


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## GatorBytes

Pesticide reaction


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## woogyboogy

GatorBytes said:


> What did you use? When?
> 
> You have a 5.5 month old pup. Fragile immune system, vaccines, antibiotics and pesticide use.
> 
> That's the problem.
> 
> Bovine colostrum to assist the immune system, RAW diet to avoid the plethora of toxins in the kibble (which includes the vit./min mix usually manufactured in china).
> 
> I would make a compress out of some healing herbs (tea bags) the Usnea Carmen mentioned, can use goldenseal, pau d' arco, bilberry. activated charcoal applied to bread and milk poultice wrap in plastic and secure with first aid paper tape and warp the body as you are doing now
> 
> Bath the puppy using Dawn dish soap (this is the advice from the pesticide pet product companies) to remove the inert ingredients that move the pesticide along the skin


He was originally on Trifexis, but then we switched him to Bayer Advantage Multi. He was put on oral Cipro for this and then he received a antibiotic injection. We have also been giving him vitamin c and echinacea everyday to try to boost his immune system.


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## woogyboogy

GatorBytes said:


> View attachment 222393
> 
> 
> Pesticide reaction


I don't believe this is a pesticide reaction. He actually has open sores, not so much a rash.


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## my boy diesel

it actually does look like an insect bite of some sort


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## lalachka

Yeah the pesticide reaction looks clesn, there's no black holes in it.


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## Sunflowers

GatorBytes said:


> View attachment 222393
> 
> 
> Pesticide reaction


OP lives in Florida. Insect control is mandatory here.

I know it's hard to relate living up there in Canada, but you can't give advice to Floridians based on what you know from where you live.


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## woogyboogy

my boy diesel said:


> it actually does look like an insect bite of some sort


The Vet said it looks like a spider bite as well...but it certainly isn't healing.


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## Sunflowers

I would at least give these people a call

Contact Us


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## my boy diesel

if it is a spider bite you are looking at necrotic or rotting tissues and surgical debridement or removal of that tissue is the only solution


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## GatorBytes

lalachka said:


> Yeah the pesticide reaction looks clesn, there's no black holes in it.


I don't understand this statement. The dog in the photo may have been treated and is healing stage, or caught and treated before got to stage of the OP's dog



woogyboogy said:


> I don't believe this is a pesticide reaction. He actually has open sores, not so much a rash.


I don't see a rash. I see a burn or reaction to the inert ingredients. either way according to the EPA who regulates the spot-on industry these should NOT be used on puppies. 

Wash the stuff off with dawn and not reapply the Advantage. Then see if it goes away. That is the easiest solution and most likely reason for what you are seeing. A pesticide reaction. Treat/remove the cause, not the symptom


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## lalachka

GatorBytes said:


> I don't understand this statement. The dog in the photo may have been treated and is healing stage, or caught and treated before got to stage of the OP's dog
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see a rash. I see a burn or reaction to the inert ingredients. either way according to the EPA who regulates the spot-on industry these should NOT be used on puppies.
> 
> Wash the stuff off with dawn and not reapply the Advantage. Then see if it goes away.


I didn't mean anything bad by it. Just gave my opinion, what struck when looking at the two pics. 

I actually do agree about pesticides. I read about many horrible reactions and dogs dying.


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## Sunflowers

This is way beyond washing with Dawn.


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## my boy diesel

the labeling says puppies under 8 weeks not 5 mo old puppies

they said they treated the dog but no spots or drops were applied to the spot where the holes and infection are

*The dog in the photo may have been treated and is healing stage, or caught and treated before got to stage of the OP's dog*
or maybe it is not even a reaction to that
all i see is a dog in a vet clinic after having been shaved 
none of us know if it was actually a reaction to flea medication or not :shrug:
it is merely supposition to claim it was a reaction to flea medication

DO NOT PUT DAWN DISHWASHING SOAP on this poor dog


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## GatorBytes

It is required to remove the inert ingredients off the skin. The inert additives are what are used to spread the pesticide all over the skin so when flea bites it dies.

So treating with dawn first is priority




Sunflowers said:


> This is way beyond washing with Dawn.


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## Sunflowers

GatorBytes said:


> It is required to remove the inert ingredients off the skin. The inert additives are what are used to spread the pesticide all over the skin so when flea bites it dies.
> 
> So treating with dawn first is priority


All righty then.


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## middleofnowhere

It looks better without all the goop on it.
I also would worry about the pesticide issue on a puppy regardless of what the label says about safety
BUT this is not typically where one applies the pesticide... 

I would go to maybe a vet dermatologist at this point or a wholeistic vet -- I would not rush out to purchase and apply new goo recommended from a web board without talking to a vet and likely a specialist.

Please let us know how this pup is doing with this


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## GatorBytes

my boy diesel said:


> the labeling says puppies under 8 weeks not 5 mo old puppies
> 
> 
> DO NOT PUT DAWN DISHWASHING SOAP on this poor dog


The environmental protection agency (EPA) says not to use on puppies. What is on the label is moot.

Dawn is used to wash off birds caught in oil spills. Dawn is the go to of soaps to wash off inert ingredients. 

Go ahead and call the hotline for advantage. Tell them your dog is having a reaction to the drops. Ask what you should do. They will tell you to wash with DAWN.


OP, incidentally, the company says not to use on irritated skin. Did you apply this prior or post lesion?


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## Galathiel

But they don't actually know that it's a reaction to the drops which wasn't applied to this particular area. I would go to a specialist if available, personally.


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## woogyboogy

GatorBytes said:


> The environmental protection agency (EPA) says not to use on puppies. What is on the label is moot.
> 
> Dawn is used to wash off birds caught in oil spills. Dawn is the go to of soaps to wash off inert ingredients.
> 
> Go ahead and call the hotline for advantage. Tell them your dog is having a reaction to the drops. Ask what you should do. They will tell you to wash with DAWN.
> 
> 
> OP, incidentally, the company says not to use on irritated skin. Did you apply this prior or post lesion?


I never applied the Advantage anywhere near the wound. I applied it in between his shoulder blades.


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## GatorBytes

01 Adverse Reactions to Spot-on Flea and Tick Products - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Authored by: Sharon Gwaltney-Brant, DVM, PhD, DABVT, DABT 


Fortunately, treating epidermal paresthesia is fairly simple and *entails bathing off the product with a mild dish soap (pet shampoos are too mild to remove all of the product*). For pyrethroid paresthesia, applying vitamin E to the affected skin can provide quick relief— just use scissors to snip open a vitamin E capsule (the kind used as a vitamin supplement) and squeeze the oily contents onto the pet’s skin and rub it in. 
A rare but more significant skin reaction (in terms of sensitivity) to spot-on products is contact dermatitis, in which an inflammatory reaction develops in response to the topically applied product. These responses - sometimes referred to as hypersensitivity reactions) - can occur upon the first use of a product, but more commonly occur after several uneventful exposures to the product. The body sets up an inflammatory response to the site of application, and the skin will appear red and irritated. In more severe cases, wheals or blisters may develop and the skin may actually ulcerate. Unlike paresthesia, which tends to occur within 30 minutes of application, oftentimes the onset of contact dermatitis is delayed for several hours, with the full extent of the injury taking 12-24 hours to develop. Depending on the degree of the inflammatory reaction, the level of discomfort can range from mild to quite severe. *After bathing off the spot-on product*, pets who develop more than mild redness at the application site should be seen by their veterinarians for further treatment to reduce the inflammation and discomfort.

Although not life threatening, skin reactions can range from mildly annoying to very painful; for this reason, *a pet that has had a reaction to a spot-on product should never have the same product applied in the future.* If a spot- on product is still desired for flea and/or tick control, try a product with totally different active ingredients than the one that caused the reaction. Following application, watch the pet carefully and be ready to bathe at the first sign of problems. Unfortunately, there are rare individuals that cannot tolerate any of the topical spot-on products, and other flea control options such as sprays or dips may be needed.


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## woogyboogy

I've made an appointment for a different Vet on Monday, that is the earliest we could get him in. Until then I will continue to apply the Manuka Honey 2-3 times a day. After further research, Manuka honey has a plethora of positive situations where it recovered and fully healed Necrotic tissue. There are also even positive outcomes with Brown Recluse incidences that Manuka Honey has healed.

Don't worry I will keep you all very informed. My significant other and I are extremely stressed and worried, but tomorrow being a Holiday really pushes everything back til Monday.


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## GatorBytes

woogyboogy said:


> I never applied the Advantage anywhere near the wound. I applied it in between his shoulder blades.


 The "Inert" ingredients move the product along the body hair follicle by hair follicle


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## woogyboogy

GatorBytes said:


> The "Inert" ingredients move the product along the body hair follicle by hair follicle


So your recommendation is to take dish soap and scrub his wound? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.


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## Cassidy's Mom

woogyboogy said:


> So your recommendation is to take dish soap and scrub his wound? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.


GatorBytes is not a vet. At this point nobody knows what's caused this, so I would be careful taking advice from people online. Shaving around the wound and letting it breathe is probably a good idea and certainly shouldn't do any harm.


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## GatorBytes

woogyboogy said:


> So your recommendation is to take dish soap and scrub his wound? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.


 NO. It is to call Advantage and have them tell you to shampoo your dog. I did not say scrub (ouch) his wound with dish soap. Shampoo the whole dog to remove the product (inert) from spreading over his body.

This is a chemical reaction to a pesticide given when the immune system was weakened by vaccines. These two things do not work well together

And apply coconut oil to it as mentioned by Carmen.


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## Jax08

qbchottu said:


> Actually after looking at the pictures - have you had the wound biopsied ?
> 
> Why aren't you using a cone?



And is it possible it's a spider bite that is necrotic?

btw...you need to make sure the manuka honey is UMF16 or higher.


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## Jax08

I see the necrotic spider bite angle is already covered. I answered your PM on the manuka honey. You are applying it correctly based on what the directions I was given from the infectious disease doctor and the researcher in Australia. I would be following up with a different vet and getting on top of this asap.


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## Sarah~

I agree with shaving the hair around it and a 2nd opinion ASAP. It looks really bad way past anything you should ask an internet forum about... I hope he can get to a vet really really soon, I also agree it seems like a bite from something poisonous.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GatorBytes said:


> This is a chemical reaction to a pesticide given when the immune system was weakened by vaccines.


And you know this how?


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## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> And is it possible it's a spider bite that is necrotic?
> 
> btw...you need to make sure the manuka honey is UMF16 or higher.


The Manuka Honey I'm using is UMF 20+.


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## Sunflowers

It is pointless to play armchair vet. We cannot know what this is and what caused it.

If it were my dog I would be calling the vet dermatologist I linked.


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## my boy diesel

if this is a reaction to this 'toxic pesticide' then it would also stand to reason the worst reaction would be between the shoulder blades where it was applied

gator i know you are all homeopathic but the op lives in an area where a tick or flea bite or mosquito bite could kill the dog
as sunflower said it is imperative the dog be on some preventative

you have no proof this is a reaction to the flea stuff and all indicators are saying no it is not a reaction 

so your advice could be harmful in this situation
people have died from spider bites of this nature and so could a dog
treating the wound properly is imperative
you seem to believe that washing the dog in dawn will cure this and it is the majority of the people here opinion that your 'diagnosis' is incorrect

none of us are attempting to diagnose in fact but have repeatedly said to get the dog to the vet and the op has made an appointment in fact 
and is using a natural cure for infectious diseases in the meantime

op i agree with sunflower
take the dog in to the vet and stand there until they will see him
this could be an urgent matter of life or death 
at this point this would be your best option


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## woogyboogy

Sarah~ said:


> I agree with shaving the hair around it and a 2nd opinion ASAP. It looks really bad way past anything you should ask an internet forum about... I hope he can get to a vet really really soon, I also agree it seems like a bite from something poisonous.


I just figured any advice is better than none, and we are going on Monday first thing in the morning.


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## my boy diesel

is this a different vet or a specialist?


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## woogyboogy

my boy diesel said:


> if this is a reaction to this 'toxic pesticide' then it would also stand to reason the worst reaction would be between the shoulder blades where it was applied
> 
> gator i know you are all homeopathic but the op lives in an area where a tick or flea bite or mosquito bite could kill the dog
> as sunflower said it is imperative the dog be on some preventative
> 
> you have no proof this is a reaction to the flea stuff and all indicators are saying no it is not a reaction
> 
> so your advice could be harmful in this situation
> people have died from spider bites of this nature and so could a dog
> treating the wound properly is imperative
> you seem to believe that washing the dog in dawn will cure this and it is the majority of the people here opinion that your 'diagnosis' is incorrect
> 
> none of us are attempting to diagnose in fact but have repeatedly said to get the dog to the vet and the op has made an appointment in fact
> and is using a natural cure for infectious diseases in the meantime
> 
> op i agree with sunflower
> take the dog in to the vet and stand there until they will see him
> this could be an urgent matter of life or death
> at this point this would be your best option


Unfortunately Monday is the earliest we can be seen.  

I am going to call one more place and find out if they are open tomorrow or Saturday.


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## Jax08

OP - as the doc and researcher told me, Manuka Honey has shown great success for infections such as MRSA. This information directly from medical professionals and researchers directly to me.

However, I would be very careful trying to treat a quickly growing necrotic would that has the symptoms of a spider bite. That's poison spreading and needs immediate attention. I don't think I would take antidotal input from the internet on this. I would want a concrete answer on what is causing this before I put the honey on it. I don't think the honey will hurt but what will hurt is doing the wrong treatment. I would find a vet TODAY. Monday is 4 days away.


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## my boy diesel

jax is right
go to the vet clinic and beg them to work your dog in today


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## woogyboogy

I am trying my hardest, I just called another clinic and they told me they are all booked up til Monday


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## Jax08

DEMAND to speak to the vet. That is bull****.


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## osito23

That looks bad. Even a simple wound or bite can turn into an abscess, get infected, and become very serious. I would put the dog in the car and physically take the dog to the vet's and show them the wound. Any vet worth keeping would get the dog in today; if your vet won't see you today, change vets and keep looking. Are there any emergency vets or 24 hour vet offices nearby? I definitely wouldn't wait until Monday. Good luck and please keep us posted!


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## wyominggrandma

Just a quick story. One of Bernese man dogs had a sore pop up on his neck. Oozy, draining but just a hole. We shaved the area , heavy antibiotics topical etc. one hole would close and another would open up. After about two weeks we decided to put him under and clean it up. Removed a huge area of skin and cleaned up the edges , and cleaned down to fresh new skin. Sent off and he had contacted a parasitic infection rarely found in dogs that cows get. It was not an immune reaction nor a bite. I could have messed around with internet diagnosis and never cured it. Possibly make it worse. Glad you r going to vet


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## carmspack

ewww , I was starting to think along those lines too "off and he had contacted a parasitic infection rarely found in dogs that cows get."

like bot flies in horses where the biting insect deposits an egg , I do believe there is a type of mosquito that deposits eggs which hatch into larva quickly? (monsters inside me - totally gross)


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## Liesje

It's easier to see in the second set of pics but...isn't black tissue like that generally necrotic? I don't agree with the claim that honey can "fully heal necrotic tissue". Necrotic tissue is dead, it needs to be removed. I'm sure certain remedies can help the new tissue re-grow, but once it's dead it's potentially toxic.

I've never seen anything like this, I've seen some nasty hotspots that look very similar but don't have the black tissue and these always dry out and scab over almost immediately after the hair is shaved, wound cleaned and allowed to dry.

Please keep us up to date!


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## JakodaCD OA

that is nasty, I'm definitely leaning towards parasitic/spider bite, something that is not a chemical burn or caused by chemicals..

Honestly, I'd call a doggie derm in your area, to see if you can get in to one today, most likely difficult with the holiday, but tell them it's an emergency! 

I agree with Lies as well on doesn't look like a hotspot to me,,my aussie got weird hotspots, they would be raw, turn black and then scab over, the scab would be like road tar..this does not look like it wants to even think of scabbing over..and the 'black is NOT a scab',,looks like dead tissue..

Personally, if you can't get him anywhere before Monday, I'd be washing it with epsom salt, tho that might sting, and using the vetericyn on it..

Please keep us updated!


----------



## woogyboogy

Ok good news, I'm taking him into the Vet at 5:00pm tonight, which is in about 50 minutues.

The only bad thing is, is that its the same vet he has been going to. But I figured its better than waiting til Monday.

What should I talk to the Vet about, can anyone give me any questions to ask.

Thank you all so much!!!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I honestly don't know what I would say, since this vet just keeps pumping antibiotics into him with no real "cause" explanation..

I"m not even sure I'd want this vet doing anything surgically unless you trust him implicitely.

Definately shave the fur around the area,,this will help it 'breathe'...

Let us know what happens


----------



## woogyboogy

I am taking him right now to the current Vet, I am going to get his opinion, which I will take with a grain of salt, and then I just made an appointment for Saturday at 9am with a new Vet that has amazing reviews online.

So today I will get our current Vets opinion, and then Saturday I will get the new Vets opinion, and we can get all of this figured out and my poor boy and us wont have to suffer anymore.


----------



## lalachka

He already gave you his opinions, he saw this a few times, no? I'd just walk into a few offices and make them see you. I think this is an emergency, a decent vet would see you


----------



## carmspack

does the area smell ?
necrotic tissue has a distinct smell .

I've seen a diabetic foot that had dead tissue removed by fly larva , which allowed the new skin to grow .

Ask to have a culture , identify the bacteria. Identify the cause . Address the cause .

I would go to the vet today . If there is immediate need for care he can make the recommendation and have you seen . At least you know the dog will be safe and comfortable to have the other vet look at him on Saturday. You will have done your best.

I would be more of an advocate for the dog though. Tell him the treatment to date has not been good enough .


----------



## carmspack

I don't fool around with Manuka honey , even the 20+ UMF . I have that around for a treat .

For serious medicine I keep manuka oil , Manuka Oil has Medicinal, Therapeutic, and Household uses. 

expensive -- lasts forever .


----------



## lalachka

carmspack said:


> I don't fool around with Manuka honey , even the 20+ UMF . I have that around for a treat .
> 
> For serious medicine I keep manuka oil , Manuka Oil has Medicinal, Therapeutic, and Household uses.
> 
> expensive -- lasts forever .


Lol

I read the first part and totally was wrong on what I expected on the second


----------



## LisaT

Any update????


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> does the area smell ?
> necrotic tissue has a distinct smell .
> 
> I've seen a diabetic foot that had dead tissue removed by fly larva , which allowed the new skin to grow .
> 
> Ask to have a culture , identify the bacteria. Identify the cause . Address the cause .
> 
> I would go to the vet today . If there is immediate need for care he can make the recommendation and have you seen . At least you know the dog will be safe and comfortable to have the other vet look at him on Saturday. You will have done your best.
> 
> I would be more of an advocate for the dog though. Tell him the treatment to date has not been good enough .


The wound does not smell, my girlfriend is a nurse and she has been around patients with necrotic wounds, and she says it definitely doesn't have the distinct odor.


----------



## woogyboogy

So I brought him to our current Vet, he said it is definitely getting worse and that the antibiotic shot wasn't working. He said there are 2 options, one we biopsy the wound and find out what its from and whats causing it(Could take several days just to find out results), or two, he can actually remove the entire wound and then biopsy it. He can perform the surgery this Monday morning.

He checked his temperature and that was fine along with everything else but he just said that the wound was definitely going to need to be removed. 

A little off topic but;
Our boy Loki has an umbilical hernia and has 2 rear dew claws that are not connected whatsoever and need to be removed. The Vet told us he would remove the wound completely, they use all lasers apparently, remove the umbilical hernia, and the 2 rear dew claws for $374.

Keep in mind we are still going to a totally different Vet on Saturday to get another opinion.


----------



## lalachka

*Please HELP We are DESPERSATE, Wound will NOT Heal on Puppy *PICTURES**

That sounds good to me. Why didn't he suggest it earlier

ETA the second option, remove and biopsy is what sounds good


----------



## GatorBytes

Yet he never suggested that your puppy may be having an allergic reaction to pesticides...LOL

Hook, line and sinker

Find another vet


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> .....
> We have a 5 1/2 month old GSD named Loki, and about 3-4 weeks ago he came up with a small bump on his back, almost like a pimple, about the size of a pea that was slightly raised. We assumed it was an ant bite or something minor. ....
> 
> We did and after 5-6 days, it got progressively worse. So we took him in the next week and he put Loki on an oral antibiotic (Ciprofloxacin) for 2 weeks. He was and still is on it for about 6 days and it still had gotten progressively worse, so we took him back the following week, where the vet seemed alot more concerned. He gave Loki an antibiotic shot, and reassured us that this SHOULD fix it.
> 
> Well, its been about 4 days since that antibiotic shot, and its STILL getting worse. The entire wound itself is about as round as a baseball, and within that circle there are several sores that are just open and about 1/16th-1/8th deep. One of the small sores will close up and another will open. If you feel the wound, you can actually grab it, the bottom of the wound is hard, it's hard to describe  ....


What concerns me is two things. First that you have that hard lump at the bottom, and second, as soon as a sore heals, another opens.

This is something that needs to heal from the inside out, *whatever* it is. The vet _should have_ cultured it before giving that abx shot. Even if you surgically clean it out, you still want to know what abx would be effective to follow up with.

My boy used to have a cyst that would drain, open up, become an open would, heal up, until it repeated again. Finally I had it opened up and cleaned, etc. surgically, and it finally was gone, forever. It had deep drainage tracks, and it was full of icky stuff. I always worried about the proximity to the spine, and a spot that he often had problems with when he went to the chiropractor.

That lump could be anything. It could be an just a pocket of puss, a weird parasite, or even a foxtail-like thing. I think I would want an idea of how deep that lump is, and how close they might have to get to the spine. I do worry about a bite, but the description sounds more like something inside trying to get out, even if it's a mystery infection in there somehow.


----------



## LisaT

Btw, this does not seem like a pesticide reaction to me. I agree with the earlier poster that if this was from the topical, you should also see issues in other areas of application. Also, it seems like it should be a more topical issue, rather than one that appears to be deeper.

I could always be wrong, but those are my first thoughts.


----------



## lalachka

GatorBytes said:


> Yet he never suggested that your puppy may be having an allergic reaction to pesticides...LOL
> 
> Hook, line and sinker
> 
> Find another vet



Gator, this thing needs to be removed, no matter what it is. And he will biopsy it. Then they can try to understand where it came from. 

Even if he suggested it today, what would it mean and what would it change? Besides, it'd be speculation. Words with no base under it. Guess.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> So I brought him to our current Vet, he said it is definitely getting worse and that the antibiotic shot wasn't working. He said there are 2 options, one we biopsy the wound and find out what its from and whats causing it(Could take several days just to find out results), or two, he can actually remove the entire wound and then biopsy it. He can perform the surgery this Monday morning.
> 
> He checked his temperature and that was fine along with everything else but he just said that the wound was definitely going to need to be removed.
> 
> A little off topic but;
> Our boy Loki has an umbilical hernia and has 2 rear dew claws that are not connected whatsoever and need to be removed. The Vet told us he would remove the wound completely, they use all lasers apparently, remove the umbilical hernia, and the 2 rear dew claws for $374.
> 
> Keep in mind we are still going to a totally different Vet on Saturday to get another opinion.


$374 is a really good price for all that. I would go with remove completely and biopsy.


----------



## selzer

I would set up the surgery. I have no problem with getting the second opinion on Saturday, but be sure you make a list/timeline, of everything that has been tried already.

I was thinking brown recluse spider too, but I have never had any experience with them. Best to have them biopsy it, so that you will know. Hopefully. 

Medical maggots!!! Yeah, that is supposed to work, but only if it is indeed dead skin. Odie had a thing on her neck that I drained several times, pretty much every other day for a while. It was gross. And there was some black skin, but it was not dead skin. It was just black. She recovered and I can't find the spot anymore, and it has only been a couple of months. The wound was not as large as your wound is though.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

I haven't read all the posts yet, so maybe someone has suggested this...

Years ago I found a baby rabbit in my yard who seemed a bit lethargic, I took it in so the dogs wouldn't get it, and fed it, I think I had it 1 or 2 nights, then in the morning it was dead, with a hole in its side that looked exactly like what your baby has, with a big ugly fat worm working its way out of it. My vet told me that it was some type of bot fly that lays eggs on the rabbits, the larvae burrow in, and as they grow they are parasites, doing all sorts of damage inside, then they burrow out again. For a tiny baby rabbit, it is fatal, but I am sure a larger animal (like a dog) could survive it. Could that be a possibility?

Susan


----------



## LisaT

Jax08 said:


> $374 is a really good price for all that. I would go with remove completely and biopsy.


Agree. Even if the biopsy is not included (not sure?), it's still a good price for all he said that he would do.


----------



## Jax08

That is NOT a bot fly wound. I've seen a couple of warble and that is not even close. There will be a single hole and you will see the warble moving in and out to get air.


----------



## readaboutdogs

Sorry your boy is going thru this. Sending prayers for a quick recovery. That reminds me of the pressure sore Clipper had gotten, it had the tunneling and just went from a scrape on his elbow to bullistic every quickly, Clipper was almost 12 1/2 years old though and very sick. How did the vet recommend you clean or dress the wound till Monday? I washed gently with soap and water and a topical antibiotic. I'm glad you have the appointment for sat also, just to keep watch on it if anything else. I think they'd probably have to clean in surgery too.


----------



## Sarah~

GatorBytes said:


> Yet he never suggested that your puppy may be having an allergic reaction to pesticides...LOL


Just like you haven't even considered that it's NOT a pesticide reaction...

Glad op has taken a professional's advice, I would go with the surgery as well the price seems very fair  Get well soon Loki!


----------



## Tattersail

GatorBytes said:


> Yet he never suggested that your puppy may be having an allergic reaction to pesticides...LOL
> 
> Hook, line and sinker
> 
> Find another vet


From the EPA website (which you were so heavily quoting):

If you use a flea and tick control product on your pet, carefully read and follow the product label.
Use flea and tick control products only on the animal specified by the product label -- dog products for dogs only and cat products for cats only. Some pesticides are toxic to cats but not to dogs, for example.
Follow any label prohibitions against use on weak, aged, medicated, sick, pregnant, or nursing pets, or on pets that have previously shown sensitivity to pesticide products.
Apply only the amount indicated for the size of the animal being treated.
Older or sick animals could react differently to a product.
Products are designed for specific size animals (generally by weight), and using more product or a product designed for a larger animal than yours may overexpose your pet to the pesticide.
Do not apply to kittens or puppies unless the product label specifically allows this treatment. The label will tell you the minimum age or size for use. Test results may show different effects on younger animals, leading to limits on use.

Controlling Fleas and Ticks on Your Pet | Pets | US EPA

So it actually says do not use on puppies ONLY IF the label doesn't specify it's been manufactured for pups (which Advantage/Advantix does say for pups 8 weeks +) 

Not saying that problems don't happen with spot-on treatments, but you need to be open to things OTHER then this...


----------



## Kiitsu

I don't think its a brown recluse bite, the tissue would be dead. It looks like some sort of bite though...whatever it is, I hope it all gets fixed.


----------



## KaiserandStella

Maybe a resistant staph infection?


----------



## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> That sounds good to me. Why didn't he suggest it earlier
> 
> ETA the second option, remove and biopsy is what sounds good


Yeah I believe we are going to go with the second option...and I'm honestly not sure why he didn't mention it earlier. He did say that if the oral, and injection antibiotic failed that we would have to do surgery.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> What concerns me is two things. First that you have that hard lump at the bottom, and second, as soon as a sore heals, another opens.
> 
> This is something that needs to heal from the inside out, *whatever* it is. The vet _should have_ cultured it before giving that abx shot. Even if you surgically clean it out, you still want to know what abx would be effective to follow up with.
> 
> My boy used to have a cyst that would drain, open up, become an open would, heal up, until it repeated again. Finally I had it opened up and cleaned, etc. surgically, and it finally was gone, forever. It had deep drainage tracks, and it was full of icky stuff. I always worried about the proximity to the spine, and a spot that he often had problems with when he went to the chiropractor.
> 
> That lump could be anything. It could be an just a pocket of puss, a weird parasite, or even a foxtail-like thing. I think I would want an idea of how deep that lump is, and how close they might have to get to the spine. I do worry about a bite, but the description sounds more like something inside trying to get out, even if it's a mystery infection in there somehow.


Very informative, thank you! I agree that he should have taken some sort of culture at least a week ago to determine what the cause of this is. But if we end up using this Vet to do the procedure then he will have it biopsied and we can figure out what caused it anyway...


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> $374 is a really good price for all that. I would go with remove completely and biopsy.


Well I think they are doing it for $374 because I told him that we've already spent close to $400 on antibiotics trying to fix this. He was very upset that the antibiotic shot didn't start to heal the wound and I could easily see it in his body language.

The biopsy however is NOT included in that $374.


----------



## blackshep

Didn't read all responses, but has the vet ruled out a parasite? Perhaps deworming would be a good idea?

It looks like it might be from a botfly larvae


----------



## woogyboogy

selzer said:


> I would set up the surgery. I have no problem with getting the second opinion on Saturday, but be sure you make a list/timeline, of everything that has been tried already.
> 
> I was thinking brown recluse spider too, but I have never had any experience with them. Best to have them biopsy it, so that you will know. Hopefully.
> 
> Medical maggots!!! Yeah, that is supposed to work, but only if it is indeed dead skin. Odie had a thing on her neck that I drained several times, pretty much every other day for a while. It was gross. And there was some black skin, but it was not dead skin. It was just black. She recovered and I can't find the spot anymore, and it has only been a couple of months. The wound was not as large as your wound is though.


This is the plan, we are going tomorrow to see what a different Vet thinks, get their opinion, and if they tell us the same thing our current Vet has told us, then we are just going to have the Vet we go to now do the procedures on Monday morning.

I'm no expert, obviously, but I really don't think its a Brown Recluse bite. It would have progressed faster and the wound would have been a lot deeper after looking at pictures online. But who knows...we will find out when they biopsy it!


----------



## woogyboogy

I will keep everyone updated and let you know what the new Vet says tomorrow about everything, and I am prepared to tell them everything that has already been done to try to resolve this wound. 

Thank you guys so much for the help and support!


----------



## blackshep

Here's a pic of a dog with a bot fly larvae under the skin

http://squananimalhospital.com/files/2013/10/Bot-Fly-before.jpg


----------



## woogyboogy

blackshep said:


> Here's a pic of a dog with a bot fly larvae under the skin
> 
> http://squananimalhospital.com/files/2013/10/Bot-Fly-before.jpg


Yeah, I don't believe he has a bot fly. That looks to isolated whereas my boy's wound isn't.


----------



## jmgrn65

If nothing else it needs to be cultured and or biopsied. Recluse bites gets worse by the hour, so not so sure about that. However I have been thinking MRSA a staph resistant infection... which would be why the antibiotics haven't been working.


----------



## woogyboogy

jmgrn65 said:


> If nothing else it needs to be cultured and or biopsied. Recluse bites gets worse by the hour, so not so sure about that. However I have been thinking MRSA a staph resistant infection... which would be why the antibiotics haven't been working.


Yeah that's what we are thinking as well. Which is a little scary because then I believe he will have MRSA for the rest of his life, and my girlfriend and I are being highly exposed to MRSA from him?...


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah that's what we are thinking as well. Which is a little scary because then I believe he will have MRSA for the rest of his life, and my girlfriend and I are being highly exposed to MRSA from him?...


Not necessarily. 

My daughter has had MRSA for years. We have never contracted it. MRSA colonies like to live in the nose so she was given a spray. When she has outbreaks, she may need antibiotics or if it's small enough just treat topically. You can also have colonies of MRSA on your skin. She was given a special liquid soap to use. the last nose swab she had was clean. She was told that 3 clean nose swabs in a row and they consider it cured.

So, wear gloves when you handle this wound and wash your hands well afterwards. If it is MRSA then the honey may help. As I said, the Infect. disease specialist recommended it and told me she's seen it work on things that our ABX's won't touch. Definitely get a collar for him. I like this one
Amazon.com : Comfy Cone Pet E-Collar, Xlarge, Black : Pet Recovery Collars : Pet Supplies

The really important part, IF it's MRSA, is that it is cultured to find out what kind of antibiotics it is sensitive to. There are four common big ones that work.

Bactrim
Doxy
clindamycin
Minocycline 

IF it is MRSA and he is put on these antibiotics, they are going to make him sick to his stomach. You should get some Slippery Elm to give to him prior to administering the abx. I keep a bottle of SE around for lots of things. It's great stuff.

Sooooo....If you are worried about MRSA, I would ask about doing a nose swab on him as well as culturing the drainage of the wound.


----------



## canyadoit

Maybe a cyst Starts with a s but I dare not attempt a spelling here


----------



## Jax08

sebaceous


----------



## Sunflowers

Is there a reason you are not going the dermatologist route?


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Is there a reason you are not going the dermatologist route?


I can't get into that one you recommended until Wednesday at the earliest...and I'm pretty sure this needs to be taken care of ASAP.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> My daughter has had MRSA for years. We have never contracted it. MRSA colonies like to live in the nose so she was given a spray. When she has outbreaks, she may need antibiotics or if it's small enough just treat topically. You can also have colonies of MRSA on your skin. She was given a special liquid soap to use. the last nose swab she had was clean. She was told that 3 clean nose swabs in a row and they consider it cured.
> 
> So, wear gloves when you handle this wound and wash your hands well afterwards. If it is MRSA then the honey may help. As I said, the Infect. disease specialist recommended it and told me she's seen it work on things that our ABX's won't touch. Definitely get a collar for him. I like this one
> Amazon.com : Comfy Cone Pet E-Collar, Xlarge, Black : Pet Recovery Collars : Pet Supplies
> 
> The really important part, IF it's MRSA, is that it is cultured to find out what kind of antibiotics it is sensitive to. There are four common big ones that work.
> 
> Bactrim
> Doxy
> clindamycin
> Minocycline
> 
> IF it is MRSA and he is put on these antibiotics, they are going to make him sick to his stomach. You should get some Slippery Elm to give to him prior to administering the abx. I keep a bottle of SE around for lots of things. It's great stuff.
> 
> Sooooo....If you are worried about MRSA, I would ask about doing a nose swab on him as well as culturing the drainage of the wound.


We will talk to the Vet about swabbing his nose for MRSA, and culturing the wound for it as well.

What is this slippery elm you speak of, and how much do you suggest I give to my pup, and when?


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> I can't get into that one you recommended until Wednesday at the earliest...and I'm pretty sure this needs to be taken care of ASAP.


This has been going on for a month.

It is the 4th of July weekend, probably nothing is going to get done this weekend.

You already had a vet attempt to treat it, and this vet failed.

You may want to consider going to a specialist now, who knows what he is doing, and who is much more likely to diagnose correctly and treat successfully. 
Explain that it is close to the spine, and that it is urgent.

In all honesty, I think doing this at a regular vet's might backfire. They are great with regular problems. But this is beyond their expertise, in my opinion.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> We will talk to the Vet about swabbing his nose for MRSA, and culturing the wound for it as well.
> 
> What is this slippery elm you speak of, and how much do you suggest I give to my pup, and when?


Slippery elm | University of Maryland Medical Center

You can get it any health food store. Very common. I give 1 capsule.


----------



## LisaT

Dogs have their own form of resisitant staph which people are also less likely to get (though we can get it). Dogs *can* get the resistant form of people staph too, but often they have their own doggie staph.

Ask the vet tomorrow about seeing a derm specialist if you are not sure. My inclination would be to have the regular vet remove this and get the biopsy sent out ASAP, but I would have a follow-up consultation with the Derm once the report is back in. I think that the specialists are most efficient with knowing the best meds and protocol for healing. I have done this with two dogs - worked with the regular vet, but double checked on a consult with the derm to get the right protocol AND the right mixture of drugs. Going straight to someone that who specializes in this stuff can save you a lot of heartache in the long run. That's a big patch of skin and the wound from any surgery looks like it will be substantial, and you want to find the most optimal way for it to heal. 

When I used the Manuka, it was just on a bad nose issue, nothing like what you are dealing with. Jax08 has the best knowledge on this.

Is it still spreading, or just continuing to open up?


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> This has been going on for a month.
> 
> It is the 4th of July weekend, probably nothing is going to get done this weekend.
> 
> You already had a vet attempt to treat it, and this vet failed.
> 
> You may want to consider going to a specialist now, who knows what he is doing, and who is much more likely to diagnose correctly and treat successfully.
> Explain that it is close to the spine, and that it is urgent.
> 
> In all honesty, I think doing this at a regular vet's might backfire. They are great with regular problems. But this is beyond their expertise, in my opinion.


The Vet we are taking him to tomorrow morning is actually an Emergency Hospital Clinic so we are hoping they might have more knowledge of this situation, although I'm sure they are going to tell us it needs to be removed.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Dogs have their own form of resisitant staph which people are also less likely to get (though we can get it). Dogs *can* get the resistant form of people staph too, but often they have their own doggie staph.
> 
> Ask the vet tomorrow about seeing a derm specialist if you are not sure. My inclination would be to have the regular vet remove this and get the biopsy sent out ASAP, but I would have a follow-up consultation with the Derm once the report is back in. I think that the specialists are most efficient with knowing the best meds and protocol for healing. I have done this with two dogs - worked with the regular vet, but double checked on a consult with the derm to get the right protocol AND the right mixture of drugs. Going straight to someone that who specializes in this stuff can save you a lot of heartache in the long run. That's a big patch of skin and the wound from any surgery looks like it will be substantial, and you want to find the most optimal way for it to heal.
> 
> When I used the Manuka, it was just on a bad nose issue, nothing like what you are dealing with. Jax08 has the best knowledge on this.
> 
> Is it still spreading, or just continuing to open up?


I agree, and it is still continuing to open up little by little. No signs of healing.


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> The Vet we are taking him to tomorrow morning is actually an Emergency Hospital Clinic so we are hoping they might have more knowledge of this situation, although I'm sure they are going to tell us it needs to be removed.


They would be experts in crisis situations: trauma, fractures, dogs falling suddenly ill, bloat, poisoning. 

But you do what you think is best.


----------



## counter

osito23 said:


> Are there any emergency vets or 24 hour vet offices nearby?


This was the first thing I thought of when reading all of the updates about vets being too busy to see you anytime soon. A lot of people don't seem to realize that there are emergency vets open 24/7. I've had to take my pets a few times. Yes, it's more expensive, but I'll pay the extra and drive any distance to be seen today versus next week, if/when the situation calls for it.

In your situation you needed a second opinion, so an emergency vet could've helped, even if they are a few hours away. I also agree with the advice to find a specialist, because this does not look like a "normal" situation. Most of us have never seen anything like it.

I'm sure it will all work out in the end for you and your pup. Good luck, and thanks for keeping us updated!!


----------



## trcy

counter said:


> This was the first thing I thought of when reading all of the updates about vets being too busy to see you anytime soon. A lot of people don't seem to realize that there are emergency vets open 24/7. I've had to take my pets a few times. Yes, it's more expensive, but I'll pay the extra and drive any distance to be seen today versus next week, if/when the situation calls for it.


The emergency vet near me is about the same price as my vet. You can make appointments, but don't have to. An office call is $50.00. Same price as my last vet. However, if it's a true emergency (dog needs surgery or stitches) they do want a $500.00 deposit up front. 

IMO, they are better trained than my normal vet. I would rather just go there, but they are only open after the regular vets have closed. Also, the vet owns German Shepherds. That is a big plus. There is no hesitation/fear in treating my dog.


----------



## GSDLoverII

I haven't read all of your posts, but has anybody mentioned brown recluse spider bite?


----------



## counter

GSDLoverII said:


> I haven't read all of your posts, but has anybody mentioned brown recluse spider bite?


They have, yes. Spider or some other bite. Hopefully the new vet can figure it out...and soon!


----------



## my boy diesel

just as you would not visit an emergency room to diagnose cancer but you would see an oncologist
human ers are good for heart attacks and strokes and other emergencies but when it comes to diagnosing and fixing an issue they send you to specialist
i think people are saying this issue would probably be best resolved in a veterinary dermatological clinic


----------



## misslesleedavis1

This is a recluse bite that is progressively getting worse, this bull mastiff is 6 days in to the bite, I breifly saw some smart cookie mentioned recluse but was not sure someone put an image out on what the bites can look like.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## LisaT

my boy diesel said:


> just as you would not visit an emergency room to diagnose cancer but you would see an oncologist
> human ers are good for heart attacks and strokes and other emergencies but when it comes to diagnosing and fixing an issue they send you to specialist
> i think people are saying this issue would probably be best resolved in a veterinary dermatological clinic


I personally am not sure that this is solely a Derm issue. If this is a spider bite, that's not something I'd see a Derm for. Also not sure that surgery is how you would treat a spider bite like this. This may be an internal medicine issue....no definitive clue without further information.

At some point, you may want to get a blood panel run. In snake bite cases, the kidneys can take a hit. No clue about a spider bite, IF that's what this is. Still curious about the hard lump underneath, if that really is what is there.


----------



## my boy diesel

well since time and probably finances are limited it seems they need to narrow it down real quick 
they cannot see an internist a surgeon a dermatologist and and infectious disease specialist all in a week
and the original vet seems clueless about what may be going on but is willing to go in surgically some time next week


----------



## llombardo

Now I'm worried about my golden, he has a small pea size bump on his bridge. I originally thought spider bite or puppy acne. It hasn't changed in like three days. Now I'm not so sure


----------



## woogyboogy

So we finally got home today after a long morning.

The new vet we took him to which is at an Emergency facility said that it definitely needs to be removed and cultured to find out what exactly it is. 

She agreed with mostly everything our current vet has told us this far, that it could be a wide variety of things, spider bite, thorn stuck inside, staph infection, or some type of weird bacteria infection, except for the fact that it should have been cultured 1-2 weeks ago to find out the cause so he could be put on proper antibiotics.

So we are going to just get the surgery done on Monday with our current vet and we added on that they were going to culture it upon removal, that way we can discover the cause of all this.

The cost of the culture is $108, so the total for everything I listed earlier is $482.

The new Vet we visited today wanted $165 just to culture it....

Please let me know what you guys think, and thank you all so much!


----------



## Sunflowers

You really want to know what I think?

That this needs a veterinary dermatologist.

Why?

Because, if you start to perform surgery, you can discover unexpected things. 
A skin specialist will know what he or she is seeing, and will be able to excise everything properly. They will also have the proper equipment to perform the surgery correctly, and know what to do if they find something unusual when they open it up. They will know how much to remove, and how to put the skin back together, without making it worse.

Since you asked what I think... this could go wrong at the regular vet and you would end up at the specialist's anyway, with a botched surgery, which will cause more suffering to the dog and to your wallet.


----------



## Jax08

Personally, I would not hesitate to have it removed at my regular vet. They are trained in general surgery which is what this is. Some regular vets are better than others at surgery but all of them are trained in it.


----------



## my boy diesel

i just dont know
i think the regular vet could handle it but my hesitation would be
the proximity of this wound to the spine
if it is much deeper and goes all the way to the spine i wonder what will happen?
can you ask your vet about this before the surgery?
like worst case scenario?


----------



## AnnaRiley

It has been a long time since I posted on this forum but do check in some. You need to get your dog to a vet derm asap! I may have missed after reading thru but if your vet has not sent off and had this area cultured need to do that immediately. I think your dog has MRSA and excuse me if this has been ruled out I was reading fast. if You do not know what MRSA is then google it MRSA in Dogs and also check out the Jill Moss foundation. You need to move fast since this a wound versus MRSA being on the skin. If there is no vet deem in your area then ask your doctor to culture this area so your vet will know EXACTLY what will kill whatever is going on. JUMPING FROM one antibiotic to another without knowing what you are dealing with makes things worse and only causes more resistance to the ABXs that are tried. Vets are seen MRSA in dogs more and more and if they have never seen it before often miss it. It is Staph gone resistant. I wish you luck in finding an answer. I have dealt with MRSA in dogs.


----------



## AnnaRiley

A culture will tell you if it is MRSA and what abx will take care of it.


----------



## Sunflowers

my boy diesel said:


> my hesitation would be
> the proximity of this wound to the spine
> if it is much deeper and goes all the way to the spine i wonder what will happen?
> can you ask your vet about this before the surgery?
> like worst case scenario?


Exactly. 

If I had this thing on my back, I would not go to a general practitioner to treat it!
What if cutting into it would make it go systemic?

A dermatologist would have seen this before and know what needs to be done. 
Regular vet has been groping around with no clue.


----------



## AnnaRiley

Agree with Sunflowers


----------



## LisaT

If there is going to be a surgery, I would want the regular vet to do this over the Derm, they are more practiced at wounds, I would think. I looked a the site that Sunflowers posted earlier, and they do *not* list surgery as one of their services. I looked at my dog's Derm's site, and she does list laser surgery, which this wouldn't fall under. So, for the surgery, I don't think that the Derm's do this. So, the question, to me, is whether you culture and then do the surgery, or the other way around. Waiting to do the surgery may include significant risk, depending on what is going on.

However, here is my concern about the surgery Monday. While I think that surgery near the spine is an important consideration, vets are trained in surgery, and they do practice this skill regularly in their practice. My boy's cyst was right at the spine and I trusted the vet implicitly to do this, and all was good.

However, what concerns me is if NOTHING is found that is prompting this reaction. Not knowing what this is susceptible to, may mean it's all infection, and may mean a second surgery down the road to clean things out, maybe. If they are going to clean up the area inside, what will they use? 

Can't undo what has been done or not done. The vet did goof up by not culturing earlier - probably didn't even look at gunk under the microscope. I'm sure that he is kicking himself for this (I hope he is, I know that vets get cases that sneak up on them, hindsind haunts them too, or at least would for any good vet). That said, my girl has an overgrowth of staph, and the derm didn't culture (just looked at it under the microscope), she gave us some clindamycin, and while I knew that there was a chance it might not work, I trusted her experience and have been giving it, and it's working fine. 

If this were my dog, I would have the surgery by the regular vet on Monday. I would ask about the spine, and about cleaning it out, etc. I woudl also definitely make a follow-up appointment with the Derm, timed when you will get the report back. The report will tell you what abx it will be susceptible too, and your vet may feel competent to treat it, but, you can't replace the experience of a Derm in these instances. They don't replace your regular vet, but work with them. AnnaRiley has had significant dealings with this Staph stuff


----------



## AnnaRiley

I would want to know prior to surgery if it is MRSA. The prep for surgery before and after are different to keep the vet clinic clean and how the dog is cleaned up so to speak when closing the wound.


----------



## LisaT

I understand that, and it's definitely a concern. I'm not sure that surgery can wait another week and a half though.....I wouldn't not be comfortable with that.

I think there are pros and cons each way, with no clear winner....


----------



## AnnaRiley

Another thought. All vets are not equal. Can be #1 in the class and the last in the class of graduation and you are still called a called a vet. Big difference in being qualified in caring and knowing what to do. Please have a culture done.


----------



## LisaT

I think that there is no question that a culture will be done. The question is whether you wait for a week or more to have the surgery. Hindsight is the only thing that will give us a true answer to that question.


----------



## AnnaRiley

And it appears to me that if there was no answer the dog should have been referred to a specialist. I know there may not have been one immediately in the area but all vets know of where to send for special diagnosis. If this person makes the decision to move forward then the dog needs to be washed if possible Chex 4% all over his body and ask the vet what is protocol is for setting up of surgery and what he uses to clean and prepare - and clean up you have a right to know as a client.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> You really want to know what I think?
> 
> That this needs a veterinary dermatologist.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because, if you start to perform surgery, you can discover unexpected things.
> A skin specialist will know what he or she is seeing, and will be able to excise everything properly. They will also have the proper equipment to perform the surgery correctly, and know what to do if they find something unusual when they open it up. They will know how much to remove, and how to put the skin back together, without making it worse.
> 
> Since you asked what I think... this could go wrong at the regular vet and you would end up at the specialist's anyway, with a botched surgery, which will cause more suffering to the dog and to your wallet.


I do appreciate your opinion, but the Vet you recommended does not preform any surgical procedures, Also we cannot get in there until Wednesday afternoon and we want this done as soon as possible. If we go to the Derm on Wednesday who knows how long it will be til we can schedule another surgery appointment. 

The Vet that is performing the surgery has been a Vet for over 20 years and I have heard several outstanding testimonials about his surgeries, even though none of them were what our boy has.


----------



## woogyboogy

my boy diesel said:


> i just dont know
> i think the regular vet could handle it but my hesitation would be
> the proximity of this wound to the spine
> if it is much deeper and goes all the way to the spine i wonder what will happen?
> can you ask your vet about this before the surgery?
> like worst case scenario?


We will definitely talk to the Vet about the spine issue, considering that is extremely important. However, when you actually feel the part that is hard, it isn't near the spine, its to the right of it and you can actually grab it and its away from the spine (Hard to explain and understand).


----------



## woogyboogy

AnnaRiley said:


> It has been a long time since I posted on this forum but do check in some. You need to get your dog to a vet derm asap! I may have missed after reading thru but if your vet has not sent off and had this area cultured need to do that immediately. I think your dog has MRSA and excuse me if this has been ruled out I was reading fast. if You do not know what MRSA is then google it MRSA in Dogs and also check out the Jill Moss foundation. You need to move fast since this a wound versus MRSA being on the skin. If there is no vet deem in your area then ask your doctor to culture this area so your vet will know EXACTLY what will kill whatever is going on. JUMPING FROM one antibiotic to another without knowing what you are dealing with makes things worse and only causes more resistance to the ABXs that are tried. Vets are seen MRSA in dogs more and more and if they have never seen it before often miss it. It is Staph gone resistant. I wish you luck in finding an answer. I have dealt with MRSA in dogs.


MRSA is actually one of the prime suspects, however we are hoping that it is not MRSA. We are going to get the surgery done on Monday morning, and they are going to culture it and have the results back within 4-7 days.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> If there is going to be a surgery, I would want the regular vet to do this over the Derm, they are more practiced at wounds, I would think. I looked a the site that Sunflowers posted earlier, and they do *not* list surgery as one of their services. I looked at my dog's Derm's site, and she does list laser surgery, which this wouldn't fall under. So, for the surgery, I don't think that the Derm's do this. So, the question, to me, is whether you culture and then do the surgery, or the other way around. Waiting to do the surgery may include significant risk, depending on what is going on.
> 
> However, here is my concern about the surgery Monday. While I think that surgery near the spine is an important consideration, vets are trained in surgery, and they do practice this skill regularly in their practice. My boy's cyst was right at the spine and I trusted the vet implicitly to do this, and all was good.
> 
> However, what concerns me is if NOTHING is found that is prompting this reaction. Not knowing what this is susceptible to, may mean it's all infection, and may mean a second surgery down the road to clean things out, maybe. If they are going to clean up the area inside, what will they use?
> 
> Can't undo what has been done or not done. The vet did goof up by not culturing earlier - probably didn't even look at gunk under the microscope. I'm sure that he is kicking himself for this (I hope he is, I know that vets get cases that sneak up on them, hindsind haunts them too, or at least would for any good vet). That said, my girl has an overgrowth of staph, and the derm didn't culture (just looked at it under the microscope), she gave us some clindamycin, and while I knew that there was a chance it might not work, I trusted her experience and have been giving it, and it's working fine.
> 
> If this were my dog, I would have the surgery by the regular vet on Monday. I would ask about the spine, and about cleaning it out, etc. I woudl also definitely make a follow-up appointment with the Derm, timed when you will get the report back. The report will tell you what abx it will be susceptible too, and your vet may feel competent to treat it, but, you can't replace the experience of a Derm in these instances. They don't replace your regular vet, but work with them. AnnaRiley has had significant dealings with this Staph stuff


I 100% agree with your issue about the spine proximity. We are going to talk to the Vet on Monday prior to the surgery, but in my earlier post, I "tried" explaining that it is more to the right of the spine and you can feel there is a decent amount of space between the wound and the spine (depth wise). I am going to call the Derm Vet on Monday and make an appointment when we receive the culture results.


----------



## woogyboogy

AnnaRiley said:


> And it appears to me that if there was no answer the dog should have been referred to a specialist. I know there may not have been one immediately in the area but all vets know of where to send for special diagnosis. If this person makes the decision to move forward then the dog needs to be washed if possible Chex 4% all over his body and ask the vet what is protocol is for setting up of surgery and what he uses to clean and prepare - and clean up you have a right to know as a client.


*This is a very good point.* We actually have Chlorhexidine 4% on hand, and will be giving him a VERY LONG bath tomorrow night.


----------



## llombardo

Maybe it's not a Derm specialist that is needed, but maybe a spine, nerve wound, or cancer specialist(not that he has cancer but they are good at removing stuff). I know when my oldest had issues with the anal sacs, the regular vet had not performed that procedure often and a specialist was recommended. Here in Illinois we have this one Veterinary Specialty Center » Specialties


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Maybe it's not a Derm specialist that is needed, but maybe a spine, nerve wound, or cancer specialist(not that he has cancer but they are good at removing stuff). I know when my oldest had issues with the anal sacs, the regular vet had not performed that procedure often and a specialist was recommended. Here in Illinois we have this one Veterinary Specialty Center » Specialties


We are going to have our current Vet perform the surgery on Monday. He has 20 years of experience and we have heard several success stories on his surgeries.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> We are going to have our current Vet perform the surgery on Monday. He has 20 years of experience and we have heard several success stories on his surgeries.


The key here is he board certified to do this kind of procedure? The vet I used has been a vet for 30 yrs but knew he didn't have enough experience for the surgery. How can your current vet remove something when he isn't even sure about what it is? I'm not saying your vet isn't good, but when it comes to nerve tissue and all that stuff, someone who specializes in that might be better at it. Either way I hope your pup gets fixed up and recovers soon.


----------



## woogyboogy

He is Board Certified, and under his bio on their website it says "His main professional interests are Endocrinology, Dentistry, *Soft Tissue Surgery*, and Exotic Animals".


----------



## selzer

I agree with going with your regular vet.

Veterinary medicine is about balance. There are different schools of thought. One school is to do a bunch of diagnostic testing first and then apply the right remedy for the problem. This is the most expensive route. And customers generally have hissy fits when they find out they spent $400 for something that their buddy went to their vet and got antibiotics for and was out the door for $75.

The other method is to look at the thing, and treat it as though it is what you have found it to be a high percentage of the time. It is an infection, lets use this drug as it normally works for infections like this. If it does not work, then you try another antibiotic or at that point you do some testing. 95% of the time, you will get the $75 bill and it will work. The other 5% of the time, your dog is still having issues and the bills start mounting, and then people start accusing the vet of not being competent.

Trust me that I have had veterinarians do the wrong thing some times. It never makes me feel happy. But, when I go to the vet, I understand that generally my dogs are going to have something pretty ordinary, and if we treat the symptoms of the common culprit, most of the time, we are going to be getting the dog the help he needs quickly and efficiently.

A good vet, has to give his clients an impression of confidence. But they should also give us options so that we can make the best decision for our dog. If they think that our best course of action is to go to a specialist, they should say so. At some point, you need to trust your vet to do this.


----------



## ugavet2012

LisaT said:


> If there is going to be a surgery, I would want the regular vet to do this over the Derm, they are more practiced at wounds, I would think. I looked a the site that Sunflowers posted earlier, and they do *not* list surgery as one of their services. I looked at my dog's Derm's site, and she does list laser surgery, which this wouldn't fall under. So, for the surgery, I don't think that the Derm's do this. So, the question, to me, is whether you culture and then do the surgery, or the other way around. Waiting to do the surgery may include significant risk, depending on what is going on.
> 
> However, here is my concern about the surgery Monday. While I think that surgery near the spine is an important consideration, vets are trained in surgery, and they do practice this skill regularly in their practice. My boy's cyst was right at the spine and I trusted the vet implicitly to do this, and all was good.
> 
> However, what concerns me is if NOTHING is found that is prompting this reaction. Not knowing what this is susceptible to, may mean it's all infection, and may mean a second surgery down the road to clean things out, maybe. If they are going to clean up the area inside, what will they use?
> 
> Can't undo what has been done or not done. The vet did goof up by not culturing earlier - probably didn't even look at gunk under the microscope. I'm sure that he is kicking himself for this (I hope he is, I know that vets get cases that sneak up on them, hindsind haunts them too, or at least would for any good vet). That said, my girl has an overgrowth of staph, and the derm didn't culture (just looked at it under the microscope), she gave us some clindamycin, and while I knew that there was a chance it might not work, I trusted her experience and have been giving it, and it's working fine.
> 
> If this were my dog, I would have the surgery by the regular vet on Monday. I would ask about the spine, and about cleaning it out, etc. I woudl also definitely make a follow-up appointment with the Derm, timed when you will get the report back. The report will tell you what abx it will be susceptible too, and your vet may feel competent to treat it, but, you can't replace the experience of a Derm in these instances. They don't replace your regular vet, but work with them. AnnaRiley has had significant dealings with this Staph stuff


This is a good post. I have never met a vet dermatologist who does surgery--that would be a surgeon  this should have been cultured and biopsied by now yes but if your vet is now willing to do these things there's no reason why you can't go that route first and if he/she feels they need a second opinion there are lots of ways of getting one without the OP spending any more $. I don't see the big concern about the "spine being close," there is a huge layer of fat, muscle, and bone before you would hit the spine. That is why I can do injections there with a 1.5 inch needle and never have a worry . I have repaired lots of dog bites to that area and never had an issue. Think about a T-bone steak and how high the height is, that is a lumbar vertebrae. 
Now I know why I get these crazy messages from clients out of the blue--they were looking for answers on an internet message board where they got tons of conflicting answers


----------



## woogyboogy

selzer said:


> I agree with going with your regular vet.
> 
> Veterinary medicine is about balance. There are different schools of thought. One school is to do a bunch of diagnostic testing first and then apply the right remedy for the problem. This is the most expensive route. And customers generally have hissy fits when they find out they spent $400 for something that their buddy went to their vet and got antibiotics for and was out the door for $75.
> 
> The other method is to look at the thing, and treat it as though it is what you have found it to be a high percentage of the time. It is an infection, lets use this drug as it normally works for infections like this. If it does not work, then you try another antibiotic or at that point you do some testing. 95% of the time, you will get the $75 bill and it will work. The other 5% of the time, your dog is still having issues and the bills start mounting, and then people start accusing the vet of not being competent.
> 
> Trust me that I have had veterinarians do the wrong thing some times. It never makes me feel happy. But, when I go to the vet, I understand that generally my dogs are going to have something pretty ordinary, and if we treat the symptoms of the common culprit, most of the time, we are going to be getting the dog the help he needs quickly and efficiently.
> 
> A good vet, has to give his clients an impression of confidence. But they should also give us options so that we can make the best decision for our dog. If they think that our best course of action is to go to a specialist, they should say so. At some point, you need to trust your vet to do this.


This was a very good post, I appreciate your support! 

It is very unfortunate that our Vet did not mention to culture this wound weeks ago. More than likely, we would not be where we are today having to go to surgery tomorrow if he had done a culture. But with that being said, we are still very confident in his ability as a Veterinarian, and performing the surgery tomorrow on our boy.


----------



## woogyboogy

ugavet2012 said:


> This is a good post. I have never met a vet dermatologist who does surgery--that would be a surgeon  this should have been cultured and biopsied by now yes but if your vet is now willing to do these things there's no reason why you can't go that route first and if he/she feels they need a second opinion there are lots of ways of getting one without the OP spending any more $. I don't see the big concern about the "spine being close," there is a huge layer of fat, muscle, and bone before you would hit the spine. That is why I can do injections there with a 1.5 inch needle and never have a worry . I have repaired lots of dog bites to that area and never had an issue. Think about a T-bone steak and how high the height is, that is a lumbar vertebrae.
> Now I know why I get these crazy messages from clients out of the blue--they were looking for answers on an internet message board where they got tons of conflicting answers


Your post was definitely a stress reliever with what you mentioned about the spine. I know some people have mentioned it, which made my girlfriend and I very concerned, but I also know after feeling it several times a day it isn't as close as people are thinking. Yes, its in a very close vicinity, but like you said, there is a lot of fat, muscle, and bone in between.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'm in agreement with having your vet do the surgery..yeah they dropped the ball on culturing sooner, but they probably thought what they prescribed would work, and I'm sure it didn't look as bad as it does now, or progressed as much.

Vets aren't "god", and our dogs don't talk, so they can only go by what's in front of them

Good luck with the surgery, please keep us updated


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm in agreement with having your vet do the surgery..yeah they dropped the ball on culturing sooner, but they probably thought what they prescribed would work, and I'm sure it didn't look as bad as it does now, or progressed as much.
> 
> Vets aren't "god", and our dogs don't talk, so they can only go by what's in front of them
> 
> Good luck with the surgery, please keep us updated


Thank you for being so positive! I appreciate your support!!!

I will keep everyone updated don't worry:gsdsit:


----------



## woogyboogy

Since he has been on antibiotics for the past 2 weeks, I figured that it would be a good idea to put him on some probiotics, has any ever used PROBIOS?

Amazon.com : PROBIOS POWDER CHR404 : Pet Probiotic Nutritional Supplements : Pet Supplies

Is it a good choice?

Thanks!


----------



## LisaT

yes, probiotics definitely. I meant to mention that earlier but forgot.

I use this in my 15 pound dog, from refridgerated section of the local health food store, as well as the Mercola pet probiotics: http://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-adult-15-billion.html
I prefer a probiotic with acidophilous, bifidus, and bulgaricus, my dogs tend to do best on those. 

Frankly, I'm confused about one of the strains in the Probios:
Topic: Enterococcus Faecium


----------



## carmspack

I was asked whether my probiotic formula had enterococcus faecium . To give an answer I went directly to the lab that provides me with the probiotic mix . They said this "With Enterococcus faecium there are some safety concerns and some manufacturing plants will not even allow them into the facility"

Additionally they said there are species that are far more effective .


----------



## LisaT

Wow, I guess that answers my confusion. Thanks Carmen.

I think there are lots of good probiotics out there, and it seems fairly individual to the dog.


----------



## pineconeforestGSD

try calendula cream/oil


----------



## my boy diesel

i have had good success with this pro biotic
Digestive Aids for Dogs | Petivia Premium Probiotics


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I am using Gentle Digest on Masi at the moment, it's a probiotic as well as contains prebiotics..she's doing good on it..Just got a great deal off amazon, 3/60capsule bottles for 18.00 I was spending 10.00 on one at Health food store.


----------



## eddie1976E

As far as probiotics go I have used Wholistics Digest All Plus. My last dog had a sensitive stomach and this stuff worked great on her. I have been using it on my puppy as part of his everyday routine, and now that he is on antibiotics I have doubled his dose. No issues with stool so far, and we are a week into the Clavamox.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

I rotate with the following Human Grade products:

*Sunday Sundae* (Digestive Enzyme & Pro-Biotic Combo - Carmen's product): Sunday Sundae Nutritional Supplement 

*Digest All Plus* (Digestive Enzyme & Pro-Biotic Combo): The Wholistic Pet 

Mercola Digestive Enzymes and Pro-Biotics are separate products:
*Mercola "Healthy Pets" Digestive Enzymes:* Healthy Pets Digestive Enzymes for Optimal Digestion - Mercola.com

*Mercola Pro-Biotics "For Pets"*: Pet Probiotics | Optimal Digestive Health for Pets - Mercola.com 

*Bilex* (Digestive Enzyme): Bilex 90 Tablets by Douglas Laboratories

Wishing you the best of luck with the surgery tomorrow!
Moms


----------



## trcy

The only probiotics I used with Kaleb came from the vet. It was a thick Gel. The tube clicked up to allow so much to be given at one time. it worked really well and he must have liked the taste. He gobbled it up.


----------



## AKIRA3

No advice.
But praying for a positive outcome.


----------



## woogyboogy

Today is the day. We are taking him in in about an hour for the surgery.

We are just getting ready to give him a bath in 4% Chlorohexidine to disinfect anything on him prior to the surgery.

I will let everyone know how we make it!!!

Thanks for the prayers and support!


----------



## counter

woogyboogy said:


> Today is the day. We are taking him in in about an hour for the surgery.
> 
> We are just getting ready to give him a bath in 4% Chlorohexidine to disinfect anything on him prior to the surgery.
> 
> I will let everyone know how we make it!!!
> 
> Thanks for the prayers and support!


Good luck! I'm sure you guys will be fine when this is all over with...


----------



## blackshep

Good luck, keep us posted!!


----------



## misslesleedavis1

okay good luck and let us know what happens


----------



## selzer

I hope this clears this up for your pup, and you find what caused it.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Prayers for your baby and you.


----------



## LisaT

Just popping in to check on things. Hope all is okay. Hope he didn't have to wait all day to actually start the surgery.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, It's been a long day of anticipation. We just picked our boy up at 4:00 pm and he is doing ok, just very groggy from the anesthesia.

The Vet said he felt very confident in removing all of the mass, and that he wasn't worried about it's proximity to the spine at all. The incision is about 10" in length! We were shocked when we saw him!:crazy:

It is going to take about a week for the culture results to come back and then he can get started on the proper antibiotics. But he gave us Tramadol for the pain.

He removed his 2 Rear Dew claws, Umbilical Hernia, 2 stubborn baby teeth that wouldn't come out, and removed his entire wound. 

I've attached some pictures so you guys can see the damage.

(The last picture is of what his wound looked like at 8am this morning prior to his surgery)


----------



## lalachka

I hope you have a smooth recovery and quick answers.


----------



## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> I hope you have a smooth recovery and quick answers.


Thank you, we are hoping for the same.

These next 2 weeks are going to be very challenging that's for sure.:crazy:


----------



## selzer

Be careful how much time you have him outside. The coat protects from hot and cold, and shaved he can get a sunburn which can complicate healing -- just pay attention to the sun and keep him in the shade when you go out, or don't go out much in the heat of the day until he is better protected.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Bless his heart, he really had a lot of things done. Glad he is home and on his way to a complete recovery, and pray his cultures will come back ok.


----------



## Jax08

wow...did he say how far UNDER the skin it was? What diameter?


----------



## hev1128

No real advice. Just thinking and praying for you guys.
Spoil him a bit! He's earned it


----------



## woogyboogy

selzer said:


> Be careful how much time you have him outside. The coat protects from hot and cold, and shaved he can get a sunburn which can complicate healing -- just pay attention to the sun and keep him in the shade when you go out, or don't go out much in the heat of the day until he is better protected.


Great advice, the good thing about our boy is that if you go outside with him, he will dart right to the shade spots. There could be an open field with 1 oak tree and he would run right to it and lay down in the shade haha

But we will definitely be monitoring his outside activity a lot more with all of this going on.


----------



## woogyboogy

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Bless his heart, he really had a lot of things done. Glad he is home and on his way to a complete recovery, and pray his cultures will come back ok.


Thank you for the support, He is a very strong boy, I just hope this is the end of all of this.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> wow...did he say how far UNDER the skin it was? What diameter?


He said it wasn't that deep, but it was more wide, that's why the incision is about 10" long. The wound itself was about the size of a baseball.:crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

hev1128 said:


> No real advice. Just thinking and praying for you guys.
> Spoil him a bit! He's earned it


Thank you for the support!


----------



## Jax08

so it had spread under the skin? 

In my experience with Jax, the incision won't have hair but the hair around it will cover it when it grows back.


----------



## Audie1

I pray that this is a happy ending for you folks. Your love for him is very apparent


----------



## woogyboogy

Its hard to explain, but the raw part of the wound itself had been localized to the size of a baseball, and the part that had spread was underneath the wound, which was actually the "hard" mass.


----------



## woogyboogy

Also, I just broke out a tape measure and good news...the incision is actually only 7" inches long. When I said 10" early that was a guesstimate from looking at it.

So that's good news haha


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> so it had spread under the skin?
> 
> In my experience with Jax, the incision won't have hair but the hair around it will cover it when it grows back.


Yeah, I'm assuming no hair will grow back directly on the incision, but around it should completely cover up the scar.

Do you have any pictures of your dogs incision with the new hair growth?


----------



## middleofnowhere

From my experience, the wound starts to itch furiously at about day 3. That's a day you will want to be sure his "cone head" wear is firmly in place and large enough that he cannot reach the stitches. I thought things were going good - then day 3 came along.... Cost me more to repair it than the original surgery did...

Good luck. I hope the news is good and that this is soon under control.


----------



## Jax08

No. I don't have any pictures. Hers was about 3" long.

Middle is right. Make sure he can't get to that incision. That includes digging at at.


----------



## Moriah

So very relieved the surgery is behind you. Continuing to send a lot of positive energy your way. Best wishes for a speedy recovery


----------



## lorihd

Yikes!!!!! that is one large incision. Poor baby, and poor you, I am sure you were worried sick. May you put this experience behind you and have many happy years together  lori


----------



## counter

woogyboogy said:


> Also, I just just broke out a tape measure...is actually only 7" inches long. When I said 10" early that was a guesstimate from looking at it.


Ah, something most men think and/or say!:hammer:


(j/k...trying to lighten up the mood and brighten up some faces!)

I'll continue to follow up to see what the final report says about what it was that they removed.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I am glad he is home, im still a bit shady on what the wound was, he will sure be in my thoughts until he is healed-
Please update his fan page everyday.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Midnight12

Wishing a speedy recovery for your fur baby, been following your story, Thanks for keeping us posted.


----------



## BorderKelpie

Best wishes for a speedy recovery! Poor guy, that looks miserable.


----------



## woogyboogy

Thank you everyone for the support, we really appreciate it!

We have been watching him like a hawk, and we will continue to do so until everything is healing up...this is going to be a very long 14 days :crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

Just another update, He's doing pretty good, last night he slept well. Just woke up a couple times whining and moving around. So far he isn't a fan of the cone but I think that's only because he has no idea what it is, and has never really worn it.

We gave him (1) 50mg Tramadol last night, and (1) 50mg Tramadol this morning and he definitely seems at ease with no pain.

Do you guys recommend continuing to give him Tramadol, or should we quickly ween him off of it?

Also we have started applying Vetericyn wound spray last night, and will continue to apply it everyday, 3 times a day until it is healed. The Vet told us that it was a really good idea. Thanks *qbchottu*

Here's some pictures that I took last night and this morning.

The second picture is of him highly medicated last night before bed haha


----------



## Jax08

you don't need to ween tramadol. Just continue giving it to him.


----------



## Sunflowers

Poor sweet baby. Glad the Tramadol is keeping him pain free. I would definitely keep him on it.

The Vetericyn is an excellent idea. 

You might want to get an elk antler or a raw large marrow bone or raw beef knuckle bone for him. 
Rawhide could have him back in surgery,and I am sure you don't want that.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> you don't need to ween tramadol. Just continue giving it to him.



Ok perfect! That's the plan then.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Poor sweet baby. Glad the Tramadol is keeping him pain free. I would definitely keep him on it.
> 
> The Vetericyn is an excellent idea.
> 
> You might want to get an elk antler or a raw large marrow bone or raw beef knuckle bone for him.
> Rawhide could have him back in surgery,and I am sure you don't want that.


Yeah, the Tramadol is definitely helping him. And we do have an Antler bone but he doesn't even want anything to do with it?

We will take that Rawhide bone away though, that was the first and the last one we bought.


----------



## GatorBytes

Use "Raw organic cold pressed coconut oil" for the itching.


----------



## qbchottu

So happy to see everything worked out well. Wow - what an ordeal for you both and your poor pup. Here's to a speedy recovery. 

Glad the vetericyn is working - that stuff is magic!! 



woogyboogy said:


> Also we have started applying Vetericyn wound spray last night, and will continue to apply it everyday, 3 times a day until it is healed. The Vet told us that it was a really good idea. Thanks *qbchottu*


----------



## woogyboogy

qbchottu said:


> So happy to see everything worked out well. Wow - what an ordeal for you both and your poor pup. Here's to a speedy recovery.
> 
> Glad the vetericyn is working - that stuff is magic!!


Yeah crazy to think anything would happen to us like this with our very first puppy...and extremely stressful :crazy:

But yeah we just started using the Vetericyn yesterday. He doesn't like when you spray it on him directly, so we've been spraying it on gauze then dabbing it on his incision's.


----------



## LisaT

Wow, I knew the incision would be large, but that's pretty impressive!

Did the vet give any indication of what he thought was going on? Often they have an inkling before they send it off to the lab. SOOOOOOO glad you got that out of there. I'm a little nervous about having no abx for a couple of weeks though, I hope you get a quick preliminary report.....

Definitely use the tramadol as long as it seems to help him. I like to use Arnica after surgeries, to help eliminate long term muscle memory of the pain, and release the body from the trauma.

With the itchies, I use aloe vera gel, but I'm always careful not to get the stitches too wet - I don't know if it will compromise the integrity of the stitches. No clue, maybe something someone here knows - how wet can you get the stitches and have them be okay? I also like the coconut oil. I've never had much luck with the vetricyn, but I know a lot of people have seen great results.

VERY curious what the report will say :crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Wow, I knew the incision would be large, but that's pretty impressive!
> 
> Did the vet give any indication of what he thought was going on? Often they have an inkling before they send it off to the lab. SOOOOOOO glad you got that out of there. I'm a little nervous about having no abx for a couple of weeks though, I hope you get a quick preliminary report.....
> 
> Definitely use the tramadol as long as it seems to help him. I like to use Arnica after surgeries, to help eliminate long term muscle memory of the pain, and release the body from the trauma.
> 
> With the itchies, I use aloe vera gel, but I'm always careful not to get the stitches too wet - I don't know if it will compromise the integrity of the stitches. No clue, maybe something someone here knows - how wet can you get the stitches and have them be okay? I also like the coconut oil. I've never had much luck with the vetricyn, but I know a lot of people have seen great results.
> 
> VERY curious what the report will say :crazy:


He thinks its just some sort or bacteria infection gone really bad :crazy:. We are a little nervous about no ABX too, but he just finished his last Ciprofloxcin the day before his surgery so it should linger in his system for a little bit. 

I will have to look into the Arnica, I've never heard of it before. Is it oral or topical?

We were thinking about Aloe Vera gel for the itching, but have heard numerous good things about Coconut Oil.

We have been applying the Vetericyn pretty religiously, although he still hates it when you spray it on him. I guess it has that shocking effect from being a little cold?

We are just being VERY conservative on what he can do, and we are just continuing to watch his every move. We have kept him out of the cone as much as possible, AS LONG AS WE ARE RIGHT NEXT TO HIM.

He seems to be much more at ease when he isn't in the cone, but we do know that it is the best thing for him. But we have literally been by his side EVERY minute today so he hasn't had it on. BUT once we go to bed he will have it on all night.

Thanks again everyone for the support, I will be on the forums constantly checking it!


----------



## LisaT

I usually use one of those inflatable donuts when I can, instead of a cone, but sometimes they can get around it, depends on the dog and where the suture is.

Arnica is a form of homeopathic medicine. Health food stores will carry it, as well as some drugstores.
Dr Charles Forsyth Homeopathic Physician
Homeopathic Arnica to the Rescue | Larry Malerba, D.O.
I saw some in Walgreeen's the other day:
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/boiron-arnica-montana-30c-80-pellets/bi-1069

I find Aloe to be great for the itchies, and helps a bit to prevent infection. It's very soothing, and in fact has been studied extensively in healing burns. If he does okay on coconut, I might give some internally....


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> He thinks its just some sort or bacteria infection gone really bad :crazy:. ...


The good thing is that he didn't look at it and say, "yikes, this is a really bad cancer...."


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I usually use one of those inflatable donuts when I can, instead of a cone, but sometimes they can get around it, depends on the dog and where the suture is.
> 
> Arnica is a form of homeopathic medicine. Health food stores will carry it, as well as some drugstores.
> Dr Charles Forsyth Homeopathic Physician
> Homeopathic Arnica to the Rescue | Larry Malerba, D.O.
> I saw some in Walgreeen's the other day:
> http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/boiron-arnica-montana-30c-80-pellets/bi-1069
> 
> I find Aloe to be great for the itchies, and helps a bit to prevent infection. It's very soothing, and in fact has been studied extensively in healing burns. If he does okay on coconut, I might give some internally....


I will defintely look for that when I got into the Health Food store this week. Arnica, Aloe Vera, and Slippery Elm are added to the list!


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> The good thing is that he didn't look at it and say, "yikes, this is a really bad cancer...."


Yeah definitely!

On another good note, I think he is starting to get used to his cone. Even though he still runs into everything!


----------



## Nigel

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah, I'm assuming no hair will grow back directly on the incision, but around it should completely cover up the scar.
> 
> Do you have any pictures of your dogs incision with the new hair growth?


This incision was from a TPLO, but it might give you some idea. If I get these in the right order, the first pic was a day or so after surgery, then the inside/outside of his leg about six months later. His outside leg is still mostly tan, but the black is starting to come back. The last pic was taken a few months before surgery, hoping the black hair will return completely.

http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg2_zps54fec82a.jpg.html][/URL]

http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg1_zps96bdaa5c.jpg.html][/URL]

http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg3_zpse4c671dc.jpg.html][/URL]

http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg1_zps0bf16c72.jpg.html][/URL]


----------



## woogyboogy

Nigel said:


> This incision was from a TPLO, but it might give you some idea. If I get these in the right order, the first pic was a day or so after surgery, then the inside/outside of his leg about six months later. His outside leg is still mostly tan, but the black is starting to come back. The last pic was taken a few months before surgery, hoping the black hair will return completely.
> 
> http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg2_zps54fec82a.jpg.html][/URL]
> 
> http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg1_zps96bdaa5c.jpg.html][/URL]
> 
> http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg3_zpse4c671dc.jpg.html][/URL]
> 
> http://[URL=http://s881.photobucket.com/user/nigel171/media/imagejpg1_zps0bf16c72.jpg.html][/URL]


Wow, that looks like it healed back perfect! Can you even tell he even had surgery?

I know it SHOULD be the least of my worries, but I really hope that when his wound heals, and his hair grows back, that you can't see his incision/scar


----------



## Nigel

woogyboogy said:


> Wow, that looks like it healed back perfect! Can you even tell he even had surgery?
> 
> I know it SHOULD be the least of my worries, but I really hope that when his wound heals, and his hair grows back, that you can't see his incision/scar


Rangers hair is about 95% returned, just missing some of the longer black hair. It will grow back around it just as you mentioned earlier, it just takes a long time, much longer than I would have thought. Your pups surgery site looks good, soon the stubble will grow, it can be itchy, this was the only time Ranger messed with his site. Hoping your pup has a smooth and speedy recovery.


----------



## woogyboogy

Nigel said:


> Rangers hair is about 95% returned, just missing some of the longer black hair. It will grow back around it just as you mentioned earlier, it just takes a long time, much longer than I would have thought. Your pups surgery site looks good, soon the stubble will grow, it can be itchy, this was the only time Ranger messed with his site. Hoping your pup has a smooth and speedy recovery.


Yeah, we are thinking like 6 months for it to become "almost" normal...Did you ever put anything around the incision to prevent it from itching?


----------



## Nigel

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah, we are thinking like 6 months for it to become "almost" normal...Did you ever put anything around the incision to prevent it from itching?


I'll have to ask my wife when she gets home, I know we used Trameel, but that was a bit later on for pain after PT.


----------



## readaboutdogs

Glad he's feeling better! That is a big incision!! Sending wishes for good healing and gettin on with life!!


----------



## woogyboogy

Nigel said:


> I'll have to ask my wife when she gets home, I know we used Trameel, but that was a bit later on for pain after PT.


Ok thanks, just let me know.


----------



## woogyboogy

readaboutdogs said:


> Glad he's feeling better! That is a big incision!! Sending wishes for good healing and gettin on with life!!


Yeah definitely a big incision, but he seems to be coping just fine.

He slept pretty good last night, had to take him out once, but other than that he was fine. He is still a little whiny, but I think its because he really hates being stuck in his cone.


----------



## blackshep

Oh poor guy, what an ordeal!

Hope he makes a swift recovery and doesn't look back!


----------



## Lilie

I hope he heals quickly and is back to his ole' self soon. I can't thank you enough for sharing this difficult journey with the rest of us. It is a great learning tool for all of us.


----------



## mollymcgee

Vetericyn is fabulous. Been using for 3 years on my GSD. Spray it on her feet after being out in grass(allergy). Using also on myself for scratches and even bee wasp sting on myself and my GSD Molly.. Works great. Vetericyn at Amazon is expensive but it has been worth it. Right now its half the price at local pet supply stores.
Best of luck and prayers for your pup .


----------



## woogyboogy

blackshep said:


> Oh poor guy, what an ordeal!
> 
> Hope he makes a swift recovery and doesn't look back!


Thanks and we hope this is the last of this!



Lilie said:


> I hope he heals quickly and is back to his ole' self soon. I can't thank you enough for sharing this difficult journey with the rest of us. It is a great learning tool for all of us.


Thank you, we appreciate all of the help from this forum, it is amazing.



mollymcgee said:


> Vetericyn is fabulous. Been using for 3 years on my GSD. Spray it on her feet after being out in grass(allergy). Using also on myself for scratches and even bee wasp sting on myself and my GSD Molly.. Works great. Vetericyn at Amazon is expensive but it has been worth it. Right now its half the price at local pet supply stores.
> Best of luck and prayers for your pup .


Yeah we have only been applying it for 2 days now, but almost EVERYONE we've talked to said that it works amazing. We actually bought a 16 oz bottle at Tractor Supply for $24.99 which is cheaper than amazon, and we don't have to wait for shipping, so its a win win

We have been spraying it on the incisions everytime we come back inside the house from being outside in the grass...he still isn't a fan of being sprayed with it though


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, just keeping you guys updated. He is definitely a lot more relaxed than he was 2 days ago. The Tramadol seems to be really helping him out, and keeping him in a lazy mode haha.

Still continuing to spray Vetericyn, and he is getting used to the cone which is a good thing. 

We are just patiently waiting on the Culture results to come back.:fingerscrossed:

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## Moriah

So glad the good news is continuing! You guys are so deserving of a happy conclusion to this "adventure!!"


----------



## ApselBear

Anyone taking bets on culture results? Glad he's doing better!


----------



## woogyboogy

Moriah said:


> So glad the good news is continuing! You guys are so deserving of a happy conclusion to this "adventure!!"


Thanks, we are hoping for some good news with the culture results, that would make this all worth it...:crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

ApselBear said:


> Anyone taking bets on culture results? Glad he's doing better!


Yeah seriously...good idea.

*Does anyone want to take a guess at what they think the culture results will come back as?*

Once we get the results, I'll post them on here that same day. Should be sometime early-mid next week.


----------



## middleofnowhere

Thanks for the update. If the spray does still bother him, consider spraying it on a clean wipe & applying that way.


----------



## woogyboogy

middleofnowhere said:


> Thanks for the update. If the spray does still bother him, consider spraying it on a clean wipe & applying that way.


He is doing a lot better with it now. He is definitely getting used to it.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

ApselBear said:


> Anyone taking bets on culture results? Glad he's doing better!


I thought, brown recluse..but then i thought MRSA or some other godawful resistant bug.


----------



## woogyboogy

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I thought, brown recluse..but then i thought MRSA or some other godawful resistant bug.


Yeah we are HOPING this it isn't MRSA...that is worst case scenario.


----------



## ApselBear

I think it may be MRSA, but it isn't so grave as it seems.

If the mass was removed properly, and you keep it clean until the wound is properly healed, you may never see another outbreak. I've had a nasty strain of MRSA once, it was fairly small and localized and I identified it with the doc it fairly early on(within the first week of appearance), but I've went 7-8 years and never had another occurrence. Plus in the future, you know not to handle the spot directly and how to handle if any outbreaks popup. Scary? Yes, somewhat but manageable.


----------



## bruiser

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I thought, brown recluse..but then i thought MRSA or some other godawful resistant bug.


That's what I thought also...hoping your babe is alright...


----------



## woogyboogy

MRSA will be the most complicated issues to deal with out of all our options, and the most expensive too.


----------



## LisaT

I might be a bit concerned about the incision healing too fast. If there is oozing, etc. from the inside, you might want it to have a place to seep through to drain. This is one of the problems I've had with calendula in the past, it healed the outside too fast, so later the wound had to open back up so stuff could get out.


----------



## woogyboogy

Ok everyone, the vet just called me. He told me the culture results came back negative for any bacteria infection, and he said he was puzzled AT FIRST.

He told me he took the day off of work JUST to research what this could possibly be. He said he read through multiple books and talked to a couple other vets.

Finally he figured it out...and its NOT good news.

It's *Pythiosis*, and after looking at pictures and researching it, I feel as though it definitely is as well.

Pythiosis is a rare disease that a lot of Vets have never even seen, and is apparently very deadly.


I'm still trying to research as much of this horrible infection as possible but, I am very overwhelmed, scared, nervous, and shocked. 

We are going to the Vet tomorrow first thing in the morning to talk to the Vet to see what our options are.

If anyone knows any information about Pythiosis that would like to share with me, I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## llombardo

There looks to be two forms, GI and skin. The GI seems to be worse.

Treatment in Dogs

Once the correct diagnosis is made, surgery to remove affected tissue, leaving wide margins, can be effective for both the skin and gastrointestinal forms. The surgery will not cure the dog if it does not completely eliminate all of the lesions. Limb amputation may be necessary. After amputation, antifungal drugs should be given for two to four months.

With gastrointestinal pythiosis, complete surgical excision is the treatment of choice, but the disease is often too extensive at the time of diagnosis to allow complete resection. After resection, medical therapy for gastrointestinal pythiosis should include itraconazole and terbinafine given for six to nine months. However, only 10 – 20 percent of dogs respond.

Treatment with amphotericin B lipid complex can also be attempted. Approximately 20% of dogs will respond to long-term therapy.


----------



## llombardo

I also want to compliment your vet. I was wrong to assume that he might not have been the right choice, he obviously cares and he will do what is best for your dog. Everything I'm reading points to making sure the area and a wide area around it is removed. Have the vet look to see if more needs to go. I don't think your dog is showing signs of the GI one. How old is your dog? It says it comes from water, does your dog do any swimming?


----------



## llombardo

And I'm sending hugs and prayers.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> I also want to compliment your vet. I was wrong to assume that he might not have been the right choice, he obviously cares and he will do what is best for your dog. Everything I'm reading points to making sure the area and a wide area around it is removed. Have the vet look to see if more needs to go. I don't think your dog is showing signs of the GI one. How old is your dog? It says it comes from water, does your dog do any swimming?


He is only 5 1/2 months old, and yes about 1 1/2 to 2 months ago he swam in my friends pond that several other dogs swim in ALL the time. I'm assuming this is where he got Pythiosis.


----------



## woogyboogy

Let the stress, research, and sleepless night commence!


----------



## woogyboogy

If anyone cares to share their knowledge please share...I'm going crazy:crazy:


----------



## llombardo

What state are you in? Did he have any open sores that this could have gotten into?


----------



## LisaT

The lab should have enough tissue left to be able to confirm diagnosis????

GSDs are particularly susceptible to infection and fungal infection, since they tend to run on the lower end of the IgA spectrum, many have frank low IgA.

I would use Pau D'Arco as support, but I don't think it's strong enough. 

I would have your vet consult with any local referral vets and/or universities to see if anyone has had first hand experience with this. 

This is of utmost concern: _Successful treatment of dogs with pythiosis is difficult. Although morpho-logically resembing fungi, the cell wall - plasma membrane of Pythium - differs bio-chemically from that of fungi. So it is essentially resistant to antifungal drugs. _https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/1999/spring/pythiosis.shtml 

I'm sure that folks will come up with other options, but this was on a quick search:
Equine Pythiosis - Diagnosis and Treatment

Home | PYTHIOSIS


----------



## Jax08

Before you panic, remember that there is only one vet on here so PM her. Everyone else is guessing and getting their info from the internet.

Read this for info on positively diagnosing this'
Water Mold Infection (Pythiosis) in Dogs | petMD


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> What state are you in? Did he have any open sores that this could have gotten into?


I'm in Florida. The southern part which is highly susceptible to this infectious disease.

As far as an open sore, I am not sure, but this is how it had to have entered?

I really hope it hasn't spread throughout his body. Gastrointestinal Pythiosis is VERY deadly from what I've read so far.


----------



## lalachka

No knowledge here but I'm sorry you're going through this and I hope for the best possible outcome, whatever that can be with this disease


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> Before you panic, remember that there is only one vet on here so PM her. Everyone else is guessing and getting their info from the internet.
> 
> Read this for info on positively diagnosing this'
> Water Mold Infection (Pythiosis) in Dogs | petMD


This is good to do, but like his own vet, most vets have not nor will they ever see it. His vet needs to contact a vet that has dealt with it.


----------



## selzer

I have no experience with it. I will just say that you and your vet are doing a wonderful job at going after this problem, getting a diagnosis, and hopefully, with the antifungal drugs, you will be able to pull him through it. I sure hope so. 

Sending good thoughts your way.


----------



## LisaT

Not sure how you might use the garlic:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1380724921_Zanette et al.pdf

general info on immunotherapy
PYTHIOSIS INSIDIOSUM... Swamp Cancer. Have you heard of it? Here are 2 success stories and a new treatment... Please tell us your experience! | Horse and Man


----------



## lalachka

Also, it seems you got lucky with a vet and that always helps. Yeah he might've messed up at first but he's definitely trying to make up for it. Everyone makes mistakes. 
If this was diagnosed earlier, would it change anything?


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> I'm in Florida. The southern part which is highly susceptible to this infectious disease.
> 
> As far as an open sore, I am not sure, but this is how it had to have entered?
> 
> I really hope it hasn't spread throughout his body. Gastrointestinal Pythiosis is VERY deadly from what I've read so far.


From the research I'm doing, everything points to the skin one starting with a open sore and the GI one can be through the nose/nasal.


----------



## woogyboogy

Well...I guess this was the absolute worst case scenario...


----------



## Jax08

llombardo said:


> This is good to do, but like his own vet, most vets have not nor will they ever see it. His vet needs to contact a vet that has dealt with it.


What? This is not even relevant to what I posted.


----------



## Nigel

I'm sorry, no experience with this. Sounds like you have a great vet, one who'll go all out to get answers, hopefully he'll find the best way to go about treating it.


----------



## LisaT

Some treatments that have been successful also seem to mention KI, potassium iodide. I used this for Max's fistula, I used a dropped and put it straight into the open tract. This is one that mentions KI for the subcu form: Human pythiosis. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central This would be a supportive measure in addition to the big gun treatment that is chosen. I'm sure that your vet will get on the vet forums and ask about others' experiences.


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> What? This is not even relevant to what I posted.


Yes it is. He can send a message to the vet on this forum, but it's best for his own vet to contact other vets that have dealt with this. Maybe the one on here has, maybe they haven't. I didn't say it was bad to do.


----------



## llombardo

These are the symptoms...where was the lesion on your dog? His back?

There are two forms of pythiosis, GI and cutaneous. GI pythiosis affects the dog’s digestive tract, causing the tissue of the stomach and / or intestines to thicken. Symptoms include fever, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal mass / pain, and enlarged lymph nodes. Cutaneous pythiosis develops as lesions on the legs, tail, head, neck, perineum, and/or the inside of the thigh. These swollen, non-healing wounds on the dog’s skin appear as invasive masses of ulcerated pus-filled nodules. Tissue death (necrosis) follows, with the affected skin eventually turning black and wasting. In dogs, the GI form of disease is observed more commonly than the cutaneous form of disease.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> Well...I guess this was the absolute worst case scenario...


Breathe...you don't know anything yet other than a probable diagnosis. Nobody on here is a vet so all info being provided is from internet searches! 

Go to the vet and get a definitive diagnosis and go from there. Read up on how to diagnose this so you can work with your vet. Personally, I would want a university hospital involved even as just a consult.

I wonder the same thing Lisa asked about enough tissue left to culture it? Did the vet do that?

LisaT is posting some herbal antifungals. If this is Pythiosis, then I would throw everything at it so research holistic meds as well. You want to make sure they work WITH any meds the vet gives and not against. Herbals are medicines with side effects as well.


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> Breathe...you don't know anything yet other than a probable diagnosis. Nobody on here is a vet so all info being provided is from internet searches!
> 
> Go to the vet and get a definitive diagnosis and go from there. Read up on how to diagnose this so you can work with your vet. Personally, I would want a university hospital involved even as just a consult.
> 
> I wonder the same thing Lisa asked about enough tissue left to culture it? Did the vet do that?
> 
> LisaT is posting some herbal antifungals. If this is Pythiosis, then I would throw everything at it so research holistic meds as well. You want to make sure they work WITH any meds the vet gives and not against. Herbals are medicines with side effects as well.



The vet gave a diagnosis .OP's post

He told me the culture results came back negative for any bacteria infection, and he said he was puzzled AT FIRST.

He told me he took the day off of work JUST to research what this could possibly be. He said he read through multiple books and talked to a couple other vets.

Finally he figured it out...and its NOT good news.

It's *Pythiosis*, and after looking at pictures and researching it, I feel as though it definitely is as well.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Breathe...you don't know anything yet other than a probable diagnosis. Nobody on here is a vet so all info being provided is from internet searches!
> 
> Go to the vet and get a definitive diagnosis and go from there. Read up on how to diagnose this so you can work with your vet. Personally, I would want a university hospital involved even as just a consult.
> 
> I wonder the same thing Lisa asked about enough tissue left to culture it? Did the vet do that?
> 
> LisaT is posting some herbal antifungals. If this is Pythiosis, then I would throw everything at it so research holistic meds as well. You want to make sure they work WITH any meds the vet gives and not against. Herbals are medicines with side effects as well.


I wish I could breathe.... you have no idea how stressful this is...I literally just want to scream

We are going to go to the Vet first thing in the morning, but realistically, with this disease being so rare, he probably isn't that knowledgeable with it.

Also, how would I even begin to find herbal remedies for Pythiosis...there is hardly any positive information online...let alone herbal remedies.

Sorry I seem hostile, I know you are trying to help, but I am literally so stressed out and scared at this point I don't know what to do.


----------



## LisaT

Jax08 said:


> ....
> Go to the vet and get a definitive diagnosis and go from there. Read up on how to diagnose this so you can work with your vet. Personally, I would want a university hospital involved even as just a consult.
> 
> I wonder the same thing Lisa asked about enough tissue left to culture it? Did the vet do that?
> 
> LisaT is posting some herbal antifungals. If this is Pythiosis, then I would throw everything at it so research holistic meds as well. You want to make sure they work WITH any meds the vet gives and not against. Herbals are medicines with side effects as well.


I agree with all of this...

It's really important to know that you can't *definitively *diagnose via picture. There may be a similar organism, and a definitive diagnosis is most helpful, perhaps critical, depending on how this is attacked.


----------



## LisaT

This is what I would do....

Unless your vet has a VERY close working relationship with a top notch internal medicine vet (usually found at universities, mine is at a local referral center), I would set up a consult at your closest university.

Ask your vet who he can consult with this, as a measure to see what kind of information he is getting and from where. Sometimes a regular vet that is consumed with getting a patient better can be better than a specialist, but only if they are getting information from the right sources. 

I would also see if there are any good referrals to a holistic vet.

As Jax08 said, I would hit this with _everything_ at the same time, all sides, but you have to make sure treatments don't interefere with each other.


----------



## Jax08

llombardo said:


> The vet gave a diagnosis .OP's post
> 
> He told me the culture results came back negative for any bacteria infection, and he said he was puzzled AT FIRST.
> 
> He told me he took the day off of work JUST to research what this could possibly be. He said he read through multiple books and talked to a couple other vets.
> 
> Finally he figured it out...and its NOT good news.
> 
> It's *Pythiosis*, and after looking at pictures and researching it, I feel as though it definitely is as well.


Why are you arguing with every post I make? I'm not addressing you. I'm addressing the OP. And since when are you a vet that you can diagnose over the internet based on pictures and 15 minutes of google research?

I have perfectly fine reading comprehension and no where does it say there is a definitive diagnosis confirmed thru BW or culture.


----------



## llombardo

LisaT said:


> I agree with all of this...
> 
> It's really important to know that you can't *definitively *diagnose via picture. There may be a similar organism, and a definitive diagnosis is most helpful, perhaps critical, depending on how this is attacked.


I don't think the OP's vet spent the day looking at pictures to diagnosis the dog. He actually researched, looked at culture results, talked to other vets, and knows the dogs history. The only thing left to do is possibly send a culture to test for this specifically. Since it's so rare who knows if such a test exists?I hope it is something else, that would be a huge relief for the OP.


----------



## Jax08

Woogy - print things out so you can thoroughly discuss with your vet. As far as knowing how stressful diseases can be with my dogs...well...LisaT can attest to how much research I've put into cancer and CRF so yes I do know how stressful bad news can be for virtually untreatable diseases. But panicking won't get you the answers you need so take a deep breathe and start researching. You want how to diagnose, how to confirm whether it's spread or if you caught it early. Does the pond he swam in need to be tested? What herbals are anti-fungals? Make a list.


----------



## ugavet2012

llombardo said:


> I don't think the OP's vet spent the day looking at pictures to diagnosis the dog. He actually researched, looked at culture results, talked to other vets, and knows the dogs history. The only thing left to do is possibly send a culture to test for this specifically. Since it's so rare who knows if such a test exists?I hope it is something else, that would be a huge relief for the OP.


It is not THAT rare, I went to school in the south so yes I have seen dogs and horses with this. There are multiple tests for it and have been for years. I just PMed the OP back.


----------



## LisaT

Jax08 said:


> Woogy - print things out so you can thoroughly discuss with your vet. As far as knowing how stressful diseases can be with my dogs...well...LisaT can attest to how much research I've put into cancer and CRF so yes I do know how stressful bad news can be for virtually untreatable diseases. But panicking won't get you the answers you need so take a deep breathe and start researching. You want how to diagnose, how to confirm whether it's spread or if you caught it early. Does the pond he swam in need to be tested? What herbals are anti-fungals? Make a list.


Yep on all of this.


----------



## gsdsar

So sorry to hear this!!! Your poor pup. I am not familiar, and I am sure you are researching more than my quick search, but I did find mention of blood test to confirm infection and a vaccine, that while not a total prevention has been shown to increase success rate of treatment. 

Good Luck. 


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## my boy diesel

i dont know to whom you are referring lisa t
the vet looking at pics or people on here looking at pics?
because their vet was there in person and saw the wound operated on it removed it
and has spent the day going over the tests and discussing with vets to diagnose the dog
not just looking at pics on the net! 
this thread is getting strange!


----------



## LisaT

my boy diesel said:


> i dont know to whom you are referring lisa t
> the vet looking at pics or people on here looking at pics?
> because their vet was there in person and saw the wound operated on it removed it
> and has spent the day going over the tests and discussing with vets to diagnose the dog
> not just looking at pics on the net!
> this thread is getting strange!


Yes, this part of the thread IS getting pretty silly. To fight an organism, it helps to know what it is. You CANNOT diagnose definitively via picture. Now, if the culture said more about the organism that the OP hasn't reported, that may be different. All path reports I've seen will specifically address things other than bacteria, whether they were found or not. But even the websites listed here say that even a suggestive biopsy cannot be a definitive diagnosis. I tend to have confidence that this vet will do the right thing here, but it's crazy that people here think that you can just use a picture.....


----------



## my boy diesel

well who is diagnosing what based on a picture?? that is what is confusing me! 

and nobody has diagnosed anything here because the op said there is a diagnosis! and their vet made it!
you and jax are posting up just as many links as llombardo?? based on what? a picture??


----------



## LisaT

Okay, whatever....


----------



## woogyboogy

Please guys, I don't want anyone to argue over this.


----------



## llombardo

my boy diesel said:


> well who is diagnosing what based on a picture?? that is what is confusing me!
> 
> and nobody has diagnosed anything here because the op said there is a diagnosis! and their vet made it!
> you and jax are posting up just as many links as llombardo?? based on what? a picture??


No need to argue about it, I was basing my posts on the OP's posts and the OP doesn't need this now. For the record I haven't looked at pictures on the web or of the OP 's dog. When people were commenting how bad it was I couldn't look, I don't like looking at that stuff.


----------



## Jax08

my boy diesel said:


> you and jax are posting up just as many links as llombardo?? based on what? a picture??


ummm excuse me? Why the **** is everyone arguing about what others are posting? How stupid is that? All because someone's panties are in a twist because I said nobody on here is a vet? I'm sure that really helps the OP and his dog.

Just to be clear on WHAT I posted....

I posted one link with a description on how to diagnose it. And did that based on the OP stating what the vet suspects it is. I made it quite clear why I was posting the link
I said...


> Read this for info on positively diagnosing this'
> Water Mold Infection (Pythiosis) in Dogs | petMD


No where did I give advice on this infection. I gave advice on what questions to ask the vet (based on my experience with my own dogs) and what I would do with herbals.

Since none of this is helping the OP, I'm done. Have at it.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I hope you get some rest tonight. It appears that you are doing everything right. Hugs to you and your gorgeous pup. 

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----------



## selzer

Woogyboogy, you are doing fine. What I would do, is make a list of all the possible remedies, holistic, antifungul, etc that you are finding here or on the net, and take it with you to the vet, and have him/her work with you to discuss the best course of action to slam this thing.

And, you might ask your vet if he is working with a university or specialist, or if he thinks it would be a good idea to bring them on board. 

Vets do referrals all the time for things they are not equipped to manage on their own, and it may be an option that he hasn't put forward, but would welcome. 

Hoping for something good to happen out of all this. You're a trooper.


----------



## my boy diesel

all i read is the op vet made a diagnosis

now people are saying you cannot make a diagnosis with a pic and i am confused as to who is being accused of making a diagnosis with a pic?

i thought there was a diagnosis and it was not made by looking at pics :shrug:


----------



## woogyboogy

Honestly, I don't even know what to do at this point...:crazy:


----------



## my boy diesel

i think a consult with a college would be a good choice
it sounds like ugvet knows something about this horrid disease as well


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Honestly, I don't even know what to do at this point...:crazy:


Talk to your vet in more detail.,

Find out if specific test can be ran
Find out if a wide enough margin was taken out
Find out about vaccine
Ask what can boost your pups immune system

And most importantly get some rest, so you can fight this fight if needed, your pup needs you!!


----------



## TANDB

woogyboogy said:


> Honestly, I don't even know what to do at this point...:crazy:


I'm sorry you are going through this. I found the following article which has a section on pythiosis treatment on horses. 

My hopes for you and your pup are that the surgical resection already done resulted in clear margins and this will soon be behind you! 

www.vetmed.auburn.edu/uploads/89/90...Wound-Management-and-Dermatologic-Surgery.pdf



Tammi


----------



## LisaT

That's a good link Tammi. It mentions bone lesions, which probably means that if xrays haven't been done (don't remember), it would be good to do that.


----------



## Sunflowers

Let's take a deep breath here. This needs to be confirmed. 
Could the lab check for this, or has all the tissue been analyzed and discarded?


----------



## LisaT

confirmation is a blood test I believe from the links that have been posted.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Let's take a deep breath here. This needs to be confirmed.
> Could the lab check for this, or has all the tissue been analyzed and discarded?


The tissue has not been discarded...

Sorry if I'm not answering everyone right away...I'm still in a daze from all of this.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> The tissue has not been discarded...
> 
> Sorry if I'm not answering everyone right away...I'm still in a daze from all of this.


OK!!!! So there is your starting point! Talk to the vet about a culture for this specifically if he does not already have it started!


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> OK!!!! So there is your starting point! Talk to the vet about a culture for this specifically if he does not already have it started!


It would have to be a biopsy I'd imagine...But I'm going to mention the ELISA test.

I just don't know how long all of this will take to get the results back in.

Apparently with Pythiosis, early timing is crucial in the survival rate and I'm not sure how much more time we can afford.


----------



## woogyboogy

I have a stack of papers about 1 inch thick ready to show the Vet tomorrow...I hope he is ready to talk for an hour.


----------



## LisaT

Good luck tomorrow.

I'm going to add to your stack....

Note on page 9 that Lagenidiosis and Pyth cannot be distinguished using culture, so there are things out there that are similar. 
http://vet.uga.edu/images/uploads/vpp/sevpac/2014-04-Taylor.pdf
If they are both treated similarly, wouldn't matter to distinguish.....

I was first going to say that, after diagnosis, two things have to be considered, maybe three. Stopping and killing the organism (may be two different processes), and also stopping the damage caused by the organism. From reading, there quite a bit of inflammation which is damaging, so one though was a good systemic enzyme formulation, like Wobenzym, or something similar. Enzymes & Bacteria / Yeast / Parasites

If you're going to start therapy, I would consider adding minocycline, which does also have significant antiinflammatory action. Liver support with all of these drugs is a must, as well as probiotics.
http://aac.asm.org/content/55/7/3588.full.pdf
In Vitro Susceptibility of Pythium insidiosum to Macrolides and Tetracycline Antibiotics (same paper, two forms)


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Good luck tomorrow.
> 
> I'm going to add to your stack....
> 
> Note on page 9 that Lagenidiosis and Pyth cannot be distinguished using culture, so there are things out there that are similar.
> http://vet.uga.edu/images/uploads/vpp/sevpac/2014-04-Taylor.pdf
> If they are both treated similarly, wouldn't matter to distinguish.....
> 
> I was first going to say that, after diagnosis, two things have to be considered, maybe three. Stopping and killing the organism (may be two different processes), and also stopping the damage caused by the organism. From reading, there quite a bit of inflammation which is damaging, so one though was a good systemic enzyme formulation, like Wobenzym, or something similar. Enzymes & Bacteria / Yeast / Parasites
> 
> If you're going to start therapy, I would consider adding minocycline, which does also have significant antiinflammatory action. Liver support with all of these drugs is a must, as well as probiotics.
> http://aac.asm.org/content/55/7/3588.full.pdf
> In Vitro Susceptibility of Pythium insidiosum to Macrolides and Tetracycline Antibiotics (same paper, two forms)


Ok thank you very much, I'd printed those out and added them to the stack.


----------



## woogyboogy

Also, not sure if has helped him at all, but for about the past month, I've been giving him 1 Vitamin C, and 1 Echinacea in the AM, and 1 Vitamin C, and 1 Echinacea in the PM.

I'm going to talk to the Vet today about Garlic Extract, Coconut Oil, and Pau D' Arco for boosting his immune system.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

not sure this link has been posted yet but here goes Home | PYTHIOSIS

Hope it's not I probably shouldn't mention this, but even here in MY town of Old Lyme CT, a person that I know her, very young lab passed away from this, she may be mentioned on the link I posted. They concluded she got it from swimming in a pond next to her house.

The person I know, the dog went for literally months before they diagnosed pythiosis.

I hope yours will not be the case like my friends..


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> not sure this link has been posted yet but here goes Home | PYTHIOSIS
> 
> Hope it's not I probably shouldn't mention this, but even here in MY town of Old Lyme CT, a person that I know her, very young lab passed away from this, she may be mentioned on the link I posted. They concluded she got it from swimming in a pond next to her house.
> 
> The person I know, the dog went for literally months before they diagnosed pythiosis.
> 
> I hope yours will not be the case like my friends..


...


----------



## NancyJ

Oh goodness, this is good to know about. I know quite a few dogs in the humid SE who died of "cancer" after working swamps and floodwaters. I wonder if it was this and they were misdiagnosed.

Glad you have a vet who is pushing for the right answers and hope he gets it worked out. I would be clear to let your vet know of ALL approaches you are looking in to as sometimes one thing (ever herbals) counteracts a conventional drug. It sounds like you are doing exactly that.

Hopes for a full recovery!


----------



## woogyboogy

jocoyn said:


> Oh goodness, this is good to know about. I know quite a few dogs in the humid SE who died of "cancer" after working swamps and floodwaters. I wonder if it was this and they were misdiagnosed.
> 
> Glad you have a vet who is pushing for the right answers and hope he gets it worked out. I would be clear to let your vet know of ALL approaches you are looking in to as sometimes one thing (ever herbals) counteracts a conventional drug. It sounds like you are doing exactly that.
> 
> Hopes for a full recovery!


Thank you.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

nancy I had never heard of it prior to the girl I know,,and it's something that one would not really expect up here in CT.

Apparently, and woogy I hope you find comfort in this..this dog was sick for MONTHS and MONTHS,,he was way worse off than your dog, really worse..so hopefully this has been caught in time..Another thing, the dog I knew, did not have just one 'sore', they were all over him, in his mouth even.. The vets could not pinpoint what it was since it was probably something they weren't even considering and never tested for until they did a necropsy.


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> nancy I had never heard of it prior to the girl I know,,and it's something that one would not really expect up here in CT.
> 
> Apparently, and woogy I hope you find comfort in this..this dog was sick for MONTHS and MONTHS,,he was way worse off than your dog, really worse..so hopefully this has been caught in time..Another thing, the dog I knew, did not have just one 'sore', they were all over him, in his mouth even.. The vets could not pinpoint what it was since it was probably something they weren't even considering and never tested for until they did a necropsy.


That makes me feel a little better...


----------



## Sunflowers

How about finding someone here who can help you?
The University of Georgia College of Veterinary Medicine


----------



## woogyboogy

We just left the Vet, and he is going to do a Histopath/Pathophisiolgy on the actual mass he removed.

Our Vet has seen Pythiosis, and has removed it before. He said he used a laser when he removed our dogs wound and used the laser to remove margins around the mass as well.

He seems very confident that its gone, and won't return.

Please let me know what you think. Thanks!


----------



## Jax08

awesome! What did he say about anti-fungals meds and internal infection? Is he going to check for GI infection as well? What about a titer? Is that relevant for a cutaneous infection?


----------



## Sunflowers

I am seriously confused, and I think it is time for me to butt out of this subject.



woogyboogy said:


> We just left the Vet, and he is going to do a Histopath/Pathophisiolgy on the actual mass he removed.
> 
> Our Vet has seen Pythiosis, and has removed it before. He said he used a laser when he removed our dogs wound and used the laser to remove margins around the mass as well.
> 
> He seems very confident that its gone, and won't return.
> 
> Please let me know what you think. Thanks!


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> I am seriously confused, and I think it is time for me to butt out of this subject.


What are you confused about?


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> awesome! What did he say about anti-fungals meds and internal infection? Is he going to check for GI infection as well? What about a titer? Is that relevant for a cutaneous infection?


He said the anti-infungals have been prove not effective. But we are going to add Pau D' Arco to his daily regime to help fight off anything if it remains.

He said there are no signs of any GI infection. He said if he has had this for a month and has never thrown up, had trouble eating, diarrhea issues, or anything related to the GI, then he sees no reason to test GI...idk about this even still?

He didn't mention anything about Titer.

Im in contact with the company who makes the vaccine.


----------



## gsdsar

I asked my vets about it today at work. We have seen few cases. The one we did have was a goat. They vaccinated it yearly and it did fine for the rest of its life. But I think saying cured is stretching it. It's something that your dog will need to be managed for indefinitely. 

Your vet has much more experience with it than mine do. So I would follow his directions and treatment protocols. 


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----------



## Jax08

Good news on the GI part!

I have a book of herbal meds that I'll look at when i get a minute to pull out anything that is antifungal/mold.

I would ask about the titer. That measure blood values so wonder if, since it was cutaneous and not GI, it would show up on blood even or a waste of money?


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

jocoyn said:


> Oh goodness, this is good to know about. I know quite a few dogs in the humid SE who died of "cancer" after working swamps and floodwaters. I wonder if it was this and they were misdiagnosed.


 
In this area it is known as swamp cancer. I think it is a fairly common nick name.


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> What are you confused about?


He had no clue and now all of a sudden he has seen and treated it before. 

You have to understand, I have blindly listened to vets before and have been seriously burned. So I come from a skeptical place when it comes to them.

But I do need to stop posting to you because I have had misgivings about this guy from the get-go. 
If he had seen and treated it before, he would have known right off the bat what it was. Wouldn't have thrown antibiotics at it, wouldn't have sent the tissue for bacterial analysis.

You seem to trust him, so I will defer to your judgment.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> He had no clue and now all of a sudden he has seen and treated it before.
> 
> You have to understand, I have blindly listened to vets before and have been seriously burned. So I come from a skeptical place when it comes to them.
> 
> But I do need to stop posting to you because I have had misgivings about this guy from the get-go.
> If he had seen and treated it before, he would have known right off the bat what it was. Wouldn't have thrown antibiotics at it, wouldn't have sent the tissue for bacterial analysis.
> 
> You seem to trust him, so I will defer to your judgment.


I understand where your coming from, but what's done is done. He hasn't treated ALOT of cases but he said he's seen it before and done surgery but he said that our boys wasn't that advanced yet as the ones he has treated.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Good news on the GI part!
> 
> I have a book of herbal meds that I'll look at when i get a minute to pull out anything that is antifungal/mold.
> 
> I would ask about the titer. That measure blood values so wonder if, since it was cutaneous and not GI, it would show up on blood even or a waste of money?


Any info on herbal antifungal/mold would be amazing to add to our list. 

I will mention the titer to him when we talk on the phone next, but I'm honestly not sure about it.

Thanks again for all your help Jax!


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Good news on the GI part!
> 
> I have a book of herbal meds that I'll look at when i get a minute to pull out anything that is antifungal/mold.
> 
> I would ask about the titer. That measure blood values so wonder if, since it was cutaneous and not GI, it would show up on blood even or a waste of money?


Any info on herbal antifungal/mold would be amazing to add to our list. 

I will mention the titer to him when we talk on the phone next, but I'm honestly not sure about it.

Thanks again for all your help Jax!


----------



## carmspack

vetericyn,

lavender 

Show Equine Professional Company
I would want to know about the ingredients 
http://www.fungusfree.net/pythiosis/ 

am seeing a lot of recommendations on "horse" boards -- which say that the better the immune system the better and the quicker the recovery (makes sense)


----------



## Moriah

Sending positive energy your way for a healthy and happy resolution to this. Good job, Woogy, for staying engaged and working earnestly on your pup's behalf


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> Ok everyone, the vet just called me. He told me the culture results came back negative for any bacteria infection, and he said he was puzzled AT FIRST.
> 
> He told me he took the day off of work JUST to research what this could possibly be. He said he read through multiple books and talked to a couple other vets.
> 
> Finally he figured it out...





woogyboogy said:


> . He said he's seen it before and done surgery but he said that our boys wasn't that advanced yet as the ones he has treated.


OK. Good luck.


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> Hi everyone, thank you for taking time to read this.
> 
> We have a 5 1/2 month old GSD named Loki, and about 3-4 weeks ago he came up with a small bump on his back, almost like a pimple, about the size of a pea that was slightly raised. We assumed it was an ant bite or something minor. About 2-3 days later we brought him into the vet to get some of his immunizations and we showed the vet this bump. He told us to use Virbac Pyoben Shampoo when we bath him and just keep a close eye on it.
> 
> We did and after 5-6 days, it got progressively worse. So we took him in the next week and he put Loki on an oral antibiotic (Ciprofloxacin) for 2 weeks. He was and still is on it for about 6 days and it still had gotten progressively worse, so we took him back the following week, where the vet seemed alot more concerned. He gave Loki an antibiotic shot, and reassured us that this SHOULD fix it.
> 
> Well, its been about 4 days since that antibiotic shot, and its STILL getting worse.





woogyboogy said:


> We haven't had the wound biopsied, the vet never mentioned it. .





woogyboogy said:


> On the visit where the Vet prescribed him an oral antibiotic, he did lance the original sore and drain it a little bit. That sore is now healed, but there are 3-4 other sores inside the wound area that are open sores.





woogyboogy said:


> The Vet said it looks like a spider bite as well...but it certainly isn't healing.


Lest anyone think I am beating you up.... that is not my intention.

You did everything you thought was right and went through a lot with this dog. 

What I think is that this vet was clueless and groping around, and now is in CYA mode. 
If it were my dog, I would seriously go to another vet. 

OK. Now I will shut up


----------



## lalachka

What's cya mode


----------



## Sunflowers

lalachka said:


> What's cya mode


Urban Dictionary: cya


Definition 2


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> What's cya mode


Cover your butt, but not really butt, but the other word


----------



## lalachka

Lolol I should've googled it. I thought it was see ya but he's still treating them. 

I kind of agree.


----------



## selzer

Gosh, I don't know, Sunflowers, I think you are being rather hard on the vet. In the initial stages of anything, things often look the same as other stuff. Treating the symptoms of more common stuff first is a common veterinary practice, and it generally makes veterinary medicine in the whole more efficient. 

I think we should lay off the person's vet. It sounds like he does have a diagnosis, is doing further testing to be 100% sure, and I dunno, it sounds like he is very willing to explain and work with the client/op. Any other vet you might go to might be a huge bozo. This guy has some positives in my opinion.


----------



## trcy

selzer said:


> Gosh, I don't know, Sunflowers, I think you are being rather hard on the vet. In the initial stages of anything, things often look the same as other stuff. Treating the symptoms of more common stuff first is a common veterinary practice, and it generally makes veterinary medicine in the whole more efficient.


IDK, vets should be skilled and not always rely on treating sypmtoms. I believe I lost Riley because I was relying on a vet I had used for 10 years, but had no idea what was wrong with Riley. By the time they did all these unnecessary tests and surgeries to him he was pretty much dying and suffering more than he should have. By the time I got the second opinion it was pretty much to late. I still beat myself up over this. I okay-ed the treatment, but I was trusting who I though was a professional vet. 

I recently went to another vet and only described the minor symptoms Riley was having and that vet told me exactly what he had. He did not even exam the dog. 

It takes a lot for me to trust a vet now and I will not hesitate to get a second, third or fourth opinion if I feel it's needed.


----------



## middleofnowhere

I'm pulling for the vet to have been right, for the mass to be gone and the pup to recover and live many years more.


----------



## woogyboogy

We can only hope for a positive outcome, however I'm not sure if this histopathology will be able to detect the Pythiosis.


----------



## lalachka

trcy said:


> IDK, vets should be skilled and not always rely on treating sypmtoms. I believe I lost Riley because I was relying on a vet I had used for 10 years, but had no idea what was wrong with Riley. By the time they did all these unnecessary tests and surgeries to him he was pretty much dying and suffering more than he should have. By the time I got the second opinion it was pretty much to late. I still beat myself up over this. I okay-ed the treatment, but I was trusting who I though was a professional vet.
> 
> I recently went to another vet and only described the minor symptoms Riley was having and that vet told me exactly what he had. He did not even exam the dog.
> 
> It takes a lot for me to trust a vet now and I will not hesitate to get a second, third or fourth opinion if I feel it's needed.



Totally agree. I've been to 5 offices already and though thankfully my stuff has been relatively minor, it's always the same thing. They don't know what it is, are guessing just as I am and are giving meds just in case.

ETA in this case it's nice the vet is researching and trying to understand what it is but I feel it should've been done the first time he saw something he wasn't sure of. If you love what you do that's how you do it. I love my job, I've stayed up many nights, years worth, figuring stuff out. I just can't let it go until I understand it. I expect it from others too


----------



## carmspack

are you wondering at all how normal it would be to have Pythiosis on top of the dogs back , croup area ?

I keep thinking German Shepherd Pyoderma - staph intermidius , related to MRSA .
The infection would go deep beyond the superficial skin surface causing deep chronic draining lesions. Usual places for this is the lower back and hind leg area.

I thought pythiosis was more surface ?

Ask your vet .


----------



## LisaT

I agree with Sunflowers and see all sorts of red flags here. That histo, etc. should have been ordered when the mass was first removed, more delay.... now this vet is claiming experience with Pyth, yet he really dropped the ball on getting on top of this. He may be confident, but I've met a lot of confident vets that have screwed up dogs - are you confident enough in this one vet to risk your dog's life on the level of confidence? This is the question you have to ask yourself. 

I agree with Carmen too, on the concern about whether or not this stuff is elsewhere.... this is also a GSD, which will tend to have less natural immunity.

Personally, I would not trust my dog's aftercare with this vet...

Just a few thoughts.... there is combination therapy with anti-fungals and anti-biotics that have shown more success than solo therapy, more research would need to be done, but I am concerned about the delay throughout this whole ordeal that your vet has already cost you. The concern with the anti-fungal drugs would extend to anti-fungal herbals, but sometimes herbals are more broad spectrum.

Tell your vet you are starting a file for your boy at home and get copies of all the labwork, reports, etc. Keep an eye out for abnormalities that your vet dismisses as normal, and this also gives you freedom to seek an opinion from another vet. Some basic labwork would have done before the surgery, be sure you get a copy of that too, and double check it.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> We can only hope for a positive outcome, however I'm not sure if this histopathology will be able to detect the Pythiosis.


Exactly. It may rule out other stuff, but you still will not get a positive Pyth diagnosis with this. Did the vet imply that this would diagnosis Pyth?


----------



## LisaT

carmspack said:


> ....
> 
> I thought pythiosis was more surface ?


It appears that there are several forms, including a vascular form.... and it can also travel into the bone.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Exactly. It may rule out other stuff, but you still will not get a positive Pyth diagnosis with this. Did the vet imply that this would diagnosis Pyth?


He said it should determine whether or not Pythiosis was the cause, so yes.

When in fact, I do not believe it is reliable for picking up on Pythiosis.

Once the results come back and depending on what he says, we are going to DEMAND to have a ELISA done, and if he tries to sway us from it, then we are going to seek a different Vet.

This is all unbelievably stressful.


----------



## Jax08

He's culturing specifically for pythiosis, right? That's what all the documents we found last night say to do.

Pythiosis - A new canine disease

I would contact these people!



> In the past diagnosis of Pythiosis was difficult as the symptoms mimic several unrelated disorders and the hyphae of P. Insidiosum are difficult to detect in histopathology exam unless Silver stain or other special stains are employed. *Now, however, diagnosis of Pythiosis is quickly and easily accomplished via a simple blood test which detects Pythium specific antibodies in the blood of the patient. * This test has demonstrated greater than 90% sensitivity and specificity for detecting infected animals.




Was there any blood drawn to run this test? And if not, why not?



> Traditional treatment options for Pythium infected dogs include surgical resection of infected tissues and antifungal medications. Overall success when using one or more of these treatment options is only +/- 25%. *Recently the USDA has approved an Immunotherapy treatment product. *This product consists of purified proteins derived from Pythium Insidiosum. These proteins are injected into the infected patient in an effort to elicit an immune response which will kill the invading Pythium. In horses this treatment is successful in >90% of cases, however, in canine cases the success rate is nearer 50%. Work continues on a new version of this product which will demonstrate a higher success rate in dogs.




Was this discussed? If not, why not?

If you want a second opinion, then find an infectious disease specialist. And since you are obviously not comfortable with how your vet ended this today then I would ask for a referral to a specialist.

No, Carmen. Most common type is dogs is a GI infection. The vet ruled this out but saying that if the dog has not had any symptoms in the last month since this started that he could rule out GI infection. I assume the symptoms come on quickly and spread quickly as this cutaneous infection did?


----------



## carmspack

"I keep thinking German Shepherd Pyoderma - staph intermidius , related to MRSA " which is why I suggested USNEA 

Your vet does need to do a culture . With the increasing risk of MRSA , you need to use a narrow band of anti biotic , targeting what was found in the culture and whatever that is sensitive to.

MRSA was promoted by indiscriminant shot gun approach to anti biotic use and the bacteria adapted and evolved.

We are running out of treatments.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> He's culturing specifically for pythiosis, right? That's what all the documents we found last night say to do.
> 
> Pythiosis - A new canine disease
> 
> I would contact these people!
> 
> [/FONT]
> 
> Was there any blood drawn to run this test? And if not, why not?
> 
> [/FONT]
> 
> Was this discussed? If not, why not?
> 
> If you want a second opinion, then find an infectious disease specialist. And since you are obviously not comfortable with how your vet ended this today then I would ask for a referral to a specialist.
> 
> No, Carmen. Most common type is dogs is a GI infection. The vet ruled this out but saying that if the dog has not had any symptoms in the last month since this started that he could rule out GI infection. I assume the symptoms come on quickly and spread quickly as this cutaneous infection did?


After today's visit the more and more I think about it the more I am strongly questioning his Vet's expertise.

We asked him about the ELISA, and he said that a histopathology should be able to detect it and that we did not need to do an ELISA...I then repeatedly, asked him, are you sure, because from what we researched it says an ELISA test is the only way to determine if its Pythiosis. He said that we are researching to much and thinking about it to deep...I wasn't that happy of a camper.

Also, I've already contacted PavLabs, and am waiting to hear back from them...


Seriously at my wits end.


----------



## carmspack

oh poop, I forgot , and just remembered what else I was going to ask. 
The blackening of the area , was that stinky necrotic tissue or what is hyperpigmentation of the skin , like bruising?


----------



## woogyboogy

ALTHOUGH, if it ends up not being Pythiosis and we have this Histopathology it will give us a closer answer on what it could be if it is another type of infection?


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> oh poop, I forgot , and just remembered what else I was going to ask.
> The blackening of the area , was that stinky necrotic tissue or what is hyperpigmentation of the skin , like bruising?


No it had no smell at all.

Also, they already cultured the wound and it came back NEGATIVE for anything bacteria related. So MRSA has already been ruled out.


----------



## woogyboogy

My mind is in so many places right now with all of this...


----------



## my boy diesel

well i dont blame you
you have a whole forum of folks second guessing your vet despite that they were not there during the surgery or any of the tests run
i think you need to trust your vet and ask for the definitive tests for pythiosis but stop trying to second guess it all
the vet has been to school and only one person on this forum has that same credentials as per their own posts not that we can verify even that


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> ALTHOUGH, if it ends up not being Pythiosis and we have this Histopathology it will give us a closer answer on what it could be if it is another type of infection?


This is where his precise words are important. 

Yes, the histo will rule out other things, but it *will not* definitely diagnose Pythiosis.

If your vet has seen and removed Pythiosis and has given this diagnosis, why is he not confirming it with the proper test? (blood test)

ETA: I definitely think you need to consult an infectious disease specialist. I dinked around for months with my boy, and in the first appointment, the internist immediately had a good handle on what he probably had.


----------



## llombardo

There is a blood test listed on the page I'm posting that was offered for a field trial. Maybe call the number to see what they have to say. You can go to another vet, have blood drawn and send it in on your own. I would start reading articles and calling vets that are listed in articles to get a handle on stuff.

Pythiosis - A new canine disease


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> .....
> We asked him about the ELISA, and he said that a histopathology should be able to detect it and that we did not need to do an ELISA...I then repeatedly, asked him, are you sure, because from what we researched it says an ELISA test is the only way to determine if its Pythiosis. *He said that we are researching to much and thinking about it to deep..*.


This is a huge warning flag to me. That whole paragraph. But to dismiss your legitimate concerns on over-googling is a vet that doesn't want to be questioned.


----------



## selzer

WoogyBoogy,

I think your vet is a good guy, and I think that he is probably very competent. 

But, this disease is life-threatening and time is of the essence, so if you were to choose to go to some type of specialist with your dog, I don't think even your vet would blame you.

Go or stick with your current vet. You have to make that decision. There are people on this thread arguing against that guy that, while they don't have DVM after their name, they have tons of experience with dogs, health issues, and GSDs in particular. 

You do not have to drop him for the normal stuff, you can go to a specialist for this thing. But starting over with "another vet" I think the chances are much more likely that you will waste more time and be just as unsure about what the guy wants to do to your dog. 

So go to a university, or go to a specialist, but I wouldn't go and find another regular vet to try and deal with this.


----------



## trcy

woogyboogy said:


> . He said that we are researching to much and thinking about it to deep...I wasn't that happy of a camper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously at my wits end.


I understand how you feel. When Riley was sick The forum brain stormed what could be wrong. I asked the vet about most of it, but he never said anything like the above to me. Granted he did not treat Riley correctly (IMO), but he did answer why it wasn't what I was asking about and he was right it wasn't anything I asked about. It was something I had never heard of and was not diagnosed until after Riley was PTS....unfortunately. 

At this point, if it were my dog, I would be trying to see an specialist. General vet practices are good for run of the mill tings, but when something out of the ordinary happens it helps to see a vet who knows more about it. 

My thoughts are with you and your boy. I hope the surgery took care of the issue and it turns out to be nothing major.


----------



## llombardo

my boy diesel said:


> well i dont blame you
> you have a whole forum of folks second guessing your vet despite that they were not there during the surgery or any of the tests run
> i think you need to trust your vet and ask for the definitive tests for pythiosis but stop trying to second guess it all
> the vet has been to school and only one person on this forum has that same credentials as per their own posts not that we can verify even that


I keep going back and forth with this vet. I'm not liking that he won't perform a simple blood test. I would find a way to submit that somewhere on my own. I would also work on making the immune system stronger. Time is not a friend with this disease. Dogs lost to Pythiosis


----------



## LisaT

LisaT said:


> This is where his precise words are important.
> 
> Yes, the histo will rule out other things, but it *will not* definitely diagnose Pythiosis.
> .....


I stand corrected...

Looking at Jax's link, there is a way to diagnosed it with histo, but a special stain has to be used and it sounds like it is a bit tricky. Again, you want to ask for the full report for your records at home, because it will include what they did. And, there is a time issue here too....I don't know how long the special stain takes compared to the blood test. Also not sure which woudl have been cheaper. Antibodies are nice because they help with comparitive values down the road if you need them.

Still not liking a vet that didn't know how to answer your question about the histo, instead telling you to not think so hard. There are several different ways he could have answered that, including just saying that they use special stains for this particular organism.

Btw, that link is no longer active from the main site, so I think the trial for the test is over and the test is in full production. Wonder what other pages from that site are no longer available that have good info on them.


----------



## selzer

When my mom had her cancer surgery, her doctor told me not to go on the internet and google it. There is too much bad information out there, and it would make me unnecessarily worried. He was right. 

My brother was a nursing student at the time and he told me that since it had gone into the lymphnodes it was stage IV with 5% chance she would make it. He was wrong. It was not stage IV, but when you think 5%, you are thinking some athletic muscle building dude who is active and otherwise healthy will make it, but not my mom. 

The doctor was right. Mom is still with us and cancer free after five years. Going on the net would have made us terribly upset, maybe despairing, and we would have gotten tons of bad information. 

We, typical pet owners, have not been trained as veterinarians, and there may be better, newer, information than whatever we find on the net about a disease. I know it's a balance, that sometimes vets do get it wrong. I know we have to be our dog's best advocate, but we were not in that conference room, and we really don't know how upset and confused the OP was, and why the vet might be telling her to lay off the internet.

I know that when I was diagnosed with Hachimoto's disease, and I went to look it up, I read the accounts by people who were struggling with it, and I seriously considered ending my life. This is a problem that I have now had for a dozen years or so, and other than changing my dosage and annual bloodwork, it means taking a little pill once a day. It is a good thing my sense of survival kicked in and I stopped reading the accounts. 

Maybe you are right, maybe this is a guy who doesn't want to answer questions. It doesn't sound like that to me, though.


----------



## lalachka

It just sounds condescending. Don't think too much into it. He can say that if he had it under control and even then, patronizing. He messed up more than once. Can anyone blame the owner for 'thinking too much into it'? It's his dog that he loves suffering with no answers for a month. 

The surgery only happened this quick because the op opened a thread and was pushed to do it. And if he didnt?

School is good to give a base. Diff vets use that base differently. All vets went to school and many of them suck.


----------



## Jax08

my boy diesel said:


> well i dont blame you
> you have a whole forum of folks second guessing your vet despite that they were not there during the surgery or any of the tests run
> i think you need to trust your vet and ask for the definitive tests for pythiosis but stop trying to second guess it all
> the vet has been to school and only one person on this forum has that same credentials as per their own posts not that we can verify even that



This!!!! ^^^^ Which was exactly my point last night as well.

You have to wait for the test to come back. Your vet has consulted with other vets and is doing what he can. He's probably trying to not panic you, which is all that is happening in this thread! Given the nature of the infection, I personally would seek out the input of an infectious disease doctor. And would ask him why a bloodwork wasn't done to test for this. But other than that, I don't see the vet as incompetent.


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> When my mom had her cancer surgery, her doctor told me not to go on the internet and google it. There is too much bad information out there, and it would make me unnecessarily worried. He was right.
> 
> My brother was a nursing student at the time and he told me that since it had gone into the lymphnodes it was stage IV with 5% chance she would make it. He was wrong. It was not stage IV, but when you think 5%, you are thinking some athletic muscle building dude who is active and otherwise healthy will make it, but not my mom.
> 
> The doctor was right. Mom is still with us and cancer free after five years. Going on the net would have made us terribly upset, maybe despairing, and we would have gotten tons of bad information.
> 
> We, typical pet owners, have not been trained as veterinarians, and there may be better, newer, information than whatever we find on the net about a disease. I know it's a balance, that sometimes vets do get it wrong. I know we have to be our dog's best advocate, but we were not in that conference room, and we really don't know how upset and confused the OP was, and why the vet might be telling her to lay off the internet.
> 
> I know that when I was diagnosed with Hachimoto's disease, and I went to look it up, I read the accounts by people who were struggling with it, and I seriously considered ending my life. This is a problem that I have now had for a dozen years or so, and other than changing my dosage and annual bloodwork, it means taking a little pill once a day. It is a good thing my sense of survival kicked in and I stopped reading the accounts.
> 
> Maybe you are right, maybe this is a guy who doesn't want to answer questions. It doesn't sound like that to me, though.


Similar situation with my mom and cancer, but they were wrong and I no longer have my mom. In fact if the family would have listened to me and what my research found, my mom might still be alive. The problem with vets and doctors is that they see death all the time, while they are telling us to wait for this test and that test, we(the family) are wondering why we are waiting so long. They on the other hand are more matter of a fact about it and don't see an issue with it.


----------



## lalachka

Yep, same here with my mom. to a doc or a vet you're just another patient. They won't go all out and those that do are hard to find.


----------



## middleofnowhere

Weighing in here on the internet --- it's a giant library without a librarian. I know in my field I got tired of people saying "this outfit does it this way." It only caused me to cheer when "this outfit" had some major problems that looked really bad... Guess what? They get it wrong every once in a while, too.

I remember when I was taking riding lessons at a university. The instructor (well-respected) was having her staff do it one way. I brought it up to my friend who also gave me private lessons. My friend's way was right. What happened? It quietly got changed with no mention to the students that this was changing.

I'm back to hoping this guy has it right, that the dog is on the way too good health.


----------



## lalachka

If it wasn't for the library the dog would still be walking around with that thing on his back. 

Though I agree with you. Just sometimes it's useful to browse through and get some ideas


----------



## selzer

llombardo said:


> Similar situation with my mom and cancer, but they were wrong and I no longer have my mom. In fact if the family would have listened to me and what my research found, my mom might still be alive. The problem with vets and doctors is that they see death all the time, while they are telling us to wait for this test and that test, we(the family) are wondering why we are waiting so long. They on the other hand are more matter of a fact about it and don't see an issue with it.


I am sorry about your Mom. The thing is, my mom's regular doctor had me do a colonoscopy. And when I did, I saw this pamphlet that gave you a list of characteristics about people who are prone to the disease. My mother was every one of them except Puerto Rican. She had been complaining about bleeding and fatigue to the doctor for over a year, and the doctor just kept giving her anti-depressants and paying attention to my dad instead. 

So my brother and I got on her about getting a colonoscopy. And then my dad went to the doctor with her, and said, "my wife and I both need colonoscopies." And the doctor agreed it was a good idea and refered them. 

Then the whirlwind. The colonoscopy doctor got enough to biopsy, and told my dad that it was bad and sent him to the specialist. The specialist is the one that told us not to go on the internet. The guy was with one of the major hospitals in Cleveland, and he exuded confidence. He came highly recommended and had awesome credentials, and a good bedside manner.

So yes, my mother would be dead now if I hadn't pushed. In fact I went back to my doctor and asked her if she had the news on my mom's test, and she said she was on vacation. So I told her. And then she tells me that HER mother was sick over the New Year and didn't tell anyone and when she did, she (my doctor) rushed her in for upscopies and downscopies. Well, isn't that nice, you give MY mother antidepressents, and poo poo her symptoms, but YOUR mother you test. And you're telling me this crap. 

Ah well, OT. 

I am not saying don't question stuff. But it is easy to get overwhelmed by the information out there, and not to necessarily know what credentials the people have that wrote the information that is out there, if it is the most current, etc.


----------



## LisaT

It's important to know how to filter information. To say not to gather information, IMO, is a cheap way out, and, at least for me, it's insulting to my intelligence. I'll even add that at least 1/2 of the therapies that have helped my pets (probably more), were therapies that evolved because I was able to educate myself online about different things. (Both my parents would be dead a couple times over had we not done some of our own research, so this extends to humans too.)

But you have to know how to filter, which is an important skill.

I don't think this vet is incompetent, but I think he is over confident and I'm not sure abou arrogant (can't tell that part online). The dog might be fine for right now, but from some of the cases I've read, you may be looking at recurrence, sometimes awhile down the road, and those, if they occur, will be deeper and harder to fight. Just as I wouldn't leave a cancer surgery with no mop up, I wouldn't leave this with no mop up. That's assuming that the diagnosis is correct.

Of course, with cancer, there are all sorts of things that you can do after a surgical resection which are in your control which can be effective. Same true for other organisms that you are trying to kill. This one however (again, assuming diagnosis is correct, but sounds like, the dog even had the "klunkers" that they refer to), it's not clear what to do, since there is a not a clear path.

I might call this place and talk to Derrick (sp?), their herbalist, and see if they have had experience with anything like this. MyHerbs.net - Since 1993 They sell a lot of tick disease herbs, so I'm not sure they would know, but a conversation is free and you've nothing to lose.


----------



## LisaT

More on diagnosis here: Diagnosis - Biomedical Laboratory Diagnostics Program

The old pythiosis site: https://web.archive.org/web/20120827025414/http://www.pythiosis.com/

I'm off for awhile. Just let everything simmer for awhile, you have a couple of nights to sleep on things before you can make any phone calls anyway.


----------



## katieliz

Internet knowledge is a double-edge sword. Personally, I would always prefer to have too much info tho, than not enough. Re the vet...whether he's good or bad with his medical knowledge and clinical expertise...the comment he made to you was rude and disrespectful. I suppose they're only human, but I am constantly and consistently disappointed by the attitude of medical care providers, be it human or animal. 

I feel your anguish thru your words and am wishing you a good supply of energy and patience to deal with this very, very difficult situation. (((hugs))).


----------



## woogyboogy

Thank you everyone for the responses. I had to go through and re read each one a couple times.

There is so much information to process right now its unreal.

I'm currently talking to the owner of Pan American Vet Labs, Robert Glass. He has informed me that a Histopathology will actually detect Pythium, and Lagenidium. BUT it will not differentiate which one he has. A blood test or culture is the only way to differentiate between these two organisms. 

He said "The Histopath will not differentiate Pythium and Lagenidium, but if the resection got is all it doesn't matter."

So the next step after that would be the Immunotherapy which is an extract of soluble proteins from the Pythium organism. When these proteins are injected into the infected animal, an immune response takes place, which down regulates the allergic/inflammatory reaction, allowing a different immune response to develop. This TH1 response kills the Pythium.

Those were his words exactly.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Thank you everyone for the responses. I had to go through and re read each one a couple times.
> 
> There is so much information to process right now its unreal.
> 
> I'm currently talking to the owner of Pan American Vet Labs, Robert Glass. He has informed me that a Histopathology will actually detect Pythium, and Lagenidium. BUT it will not differentiate which one he has. A blood test or culture is the only way to differentiate between these two organisms.
> 
> He said "The Histopath will not differentiate Pythium and Lagenidium, but if the resection got is all it doesn't matter."
> 
> So the next step after that would be the Immunotherapy which is an extract of soluble proteins from the Pythium organism. When these proteins are injected into the infected animal, an immune response takes place, which down regulates the allergic/inflammatory reaction, allowing a different immune response to develop. This TH1 response kills the Pythium.
> 
> Those were his words exactly.


Good job. I seen his name in one of the articles. Is there any way to find out for sure if he got everything?


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Thank you everyone for the responses. I had to go through and re read each one a couple times.
> 
> There is so much information to process right now its unreal.
> 
> I'm currently talking to the owner of Pan American Vet Labs, Robert Glass. He has informed me that a Histopathology will actually detect Pythium, and Lagenidium. BUT it will not differentiate which one he has. A blood test or culture is the only way to differentiate between these two organisms.
> 
> He said "The Histopath will not differentiate Pythium and Lagenidium, but if the resection got is all it doesn't matter."


Okay, that is consistent and makes sense. If the vet got it all, every bit of it everywhere in the body, then it doesn't make a difference since it's all gone. Not sure what the odds of that are.



> .... which down regulates the allergic/inflammatory reaction, allowing a different immune response to develop. This TH1 response kills the Pythium.


I had read about switching the immune response from a TH2 to a TH1 dominant response in a published paper, probably was one from the vaccine company. 

The big thing in treating autoimmune cases is determining which is dominant, and then altering it so the body is balanced. What this means is that there is a lot of info out there about which supplements would shift towards a TH1 response. I'm not sure how accurate many of these lists are, but when "boosting" the immune system, you will want to make sure that you are not boosting the TH2 and suppressing the TH1 system.


----------



## katieliz

I just have to say that I have SO MUCH respect for the way you're handling this and your pro-active stance, and the lengths to which you are willing to go to help your dog. It is just so much to absorb and you are doing a magnificent job.

(((more hugs for your boy))).


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Good job. I seen his name in one of the articles. Is there any way to find out for sure if he got everything?


No way for sure, but I did however find out that when our Vet did the surgery with the laser, he took very large margins, and he lasered around the perimeter after it was done.


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> I just have to say that I have SO MUCH respect for the way you're handling this and your pro-active stance, and the lengths to which you are willing to go to help your dog. It is just so much to absorb and you are doing a magnificent job.
> 
> (((more hugs for your boy))).


Thank you so much, It is support like this that keeps me going!


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Okay, that is consistent and makes sense. If the vet got it all, every bit of it everywhere in the body, then it doesn't make a difference since it's all gone. Not sure what the odds of that are.
> 
> 
> I had read about switching the immune response from a TH2 to a TH1 dominant response in a published paper, probably was one from the vaccine company.
> 
> The big thing in treating autoimmune cases is determining which is dominant, and then altering it so the body is balanced. What this means is that there is a lot of info out there about which supplements would shift towards a TH1 response. I'm not sure how accurate many of these lists are, but when "boosting" the immune system, you will want to make sure that you are not boosting the TH2 and suppressing the TH1 system.


That is a very good point, and unfortunately I'm not sure which immune system I am boosting when I give him Echinacea, Vitamin C, and Pau D' Arco.

What do you think? I obviously have no expertise when it comes to this.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> That is a very good point, and unfortunately I'm not sure which immune system I am boosting when I give him Echinacea, Vitamin C, and Pau D' Arco.
> 
> What do you think? I obviously have no expertise when it comes to this.


I'm not sure, since I've seen some conflicting results here. This stuff confuses me, but when I get a chance later, I will try to look and see what I can find.


----------



## woogyboogy

Here is a very informative article that Robert Glass sent me, 

*Immunological aspects of infections caused by the Stramenopilan Oomycete pathogen, Pythium Insidiosum.
*

This fungal-like organism causes Pythiosis, a life threatening disease in humans and other animals, in the tropical and subtropical areas of the world including the USA. 

During the past 10 years, we have studied the in vitro life cycle, introduced several immunological diagnostic assays, and developed an immunotherapeutic product to desensitize the allergic reaction which is characteristic of this disease. The laboratory research efforts have centered on an immunotherapy approach which changes the infected animal’s immune response from the TH2 response, which is characteristic in infection, to a TH1 response. This is the same mechanism that is involved in all successful allergy desensitization therapy. Several lines of evidence support this tenet. For instance, after immunotherapy the eosinophilic inflammatory reaction, typical of allergic disease, changes to a mononuclear response (macrophages and lymphocytes). 

Moreover, our data shows that IL4 (TH2 associated cytokine) is always present during pythiosis. However, after immunotherapy an increase of IL2 (TH1 associated cytokine) and a decrease of IL4 are found in human patients in whom the Pythium associated allergic response is resolved. We believe that the down regulation of the TH2 subset and activation of the TH1 response are the basis for the resolution of the allergy induced pathology. While it seems that the establishment of the TH1 response may result in death of the Pythium organism documentation of this phenomenon is lacking and no such claim is being made.


----------



## katieliz

oh my GOSH...SO much information to absorb!


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> oh my GOSH...SO much information to absorb!


Yeah tell me about it haha

It is probably going to be late next week when we find out the results from the Histopathology. It's going to be a very long week, the anticipation is going to kill me. :crazy:


----------



## LisaT

There is some general info here: Immune Restoration
This is the book that made the information more available: The Thyroid Book | Hashimotos Hypothyroidism Fatigue
To be honest, I can't keep all the relationships straight because of all the feedback loops, and I haven't read the book.

The article states that echnicea boosts both parts of the immune system, so I would be inclined to replace it with a pure TH1 stimulator at this point.

This stuff drives me a bit bonkers because different lists will have different information. I tend to go to the studies for these. For example, this one says that quercitin will decrease that IL-4 noted in the info that was sent to you, which makes sense, because quercitin is used in allergic responses. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19061976


----------



## LisaT

Oh, forgot to add. So, to find the info, or if you want to add something, you want to make sure that you google the name of the thing, and TH1 and/or TH2, and see what you can gather from what is written, which is not always easy.

Things that increase both, may or may not be terrible down the road, but I would avoid them right now after the surgery. You do not want anything that will shift towards TH2 or will suppress TH1. You do however want things that will shift towards TH1 or will suppress TH2, at least for now.


----------



## llombardo

I'm so lost reading all this info. Can this Mr Glass suggest what is needed?


----------



## LisaT

Forgot an afterthought....

Be careful of fish oil. My boy with his infections had trouble with it, and there is evidence that it can be bad if there is a viral infection. I haven't found info about other types of infection. Great for certain inflammatory conditions, but not clear with infection.


----------



## sparra

You need the diagnosis......blood test.....simple.
If your vet can't arrange this......find another.
You can't do anything until you are CERTAIN of what it is.


----------



## GatorBytes

Your vet is SPECULATING after going on the VIN forum and looking through books.

That is not a diagnosis.

Go to a holistic vet, there is far more you can do via that route then you can conventionally.

Look into "Lemon grass" for fungal. Supposed to be very effective for nasal aspergillus (a hard to cure fungal infection) 

AND....take your dog off the darn Adantage!


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Oh, forgot to add. So, to find the info, or if you want to add something, you want to make sure that you google the name of the thing, and TH1 and/or TH2, and see what you can gather from what is written, which is not always easy.
> 
> Things that increase both, may or may not be terrible down the road, but I would avoid them right now after the surgery. You do not want anything that will shift towards TH2 or will suppress TH1. You do however want things that will shift towards TH1 or will suppress TH2, at least for now.


Lisa, some of this stuff is over my head. I will need to research it more to be able to comprehend all of it, but I'm a little confused with all of it as of right now lol

He's on Echinacea, Vitamin C, and Pau D' Arco, not sure which is TH1 and which is TH2.


----------



## woogyboogy

sparra said:


> You need the diagnosis......blood test.....simple.
> If your vet can't arrange this......find another.
> You can't do anything until you are CERTAIN of what it is.


I know, when I talk to our Vet this week, I'm going to DEMAND an ELISA test, and if he refuses or gives me a hard time, we are going to seek a different Vet...

I hope it doesn't come down to that, but that is the current plan.


----------



## woogyboogy

GatorBytes said:


> Your vet is SPECULATING after going on the VIN forum and looking through books.
> 
> That is not a diagnosis.
> 
> Go to a holistic vet, there is far more you can do via that route then you can conventionally.
> 
> Look into "Lemon grass" for fungal. Supposed to be very effective for nasal aspergillus (a hard to cure fungal infection)
> 
> AND....take your dog off the darn Adantage!


I agree with you, it isn't a Diagnosis, but we are getting closer to a Diagnosis. Unfortunately just not as quickly as I'd like.

I will look into Lemon Grass for the fungal issues.

Also, we mentioned the Advantage to him and he said there would be no problems with re applying it this coming week.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Oh, forgot to add. So, to find the info, or if you want to add something, you want to make sure that you google the name of the thing, and TH1 and/or TH2, and see what you can gather from what is written, which is not always easy.
> 
> Things that increase both, may or may not be terrible down the road, but I would avoid them right now after the surgery. You do not want anything that will shift towards TH2 or will suppress TH1. You do however want things that will shift towards TH1 or will suppress TH2, at least for now.


One of my friends who is a Pharmacist recently told me about Grapefruit Seed Extract, and how beneficial it is. It has very high amounts of disease-fighting, free-radical eliminating antioxidants and phytonutrients called bioflavonoids. One of these powerful bioflavanoids (plant antioxidants) include the chemical component hesperidin, which is a well-known natural immune-system stimulator and booster, So we decided to add this to his regime as well.

From what I've researched so far; 

Echinacea stimulates the *TH1* system. 
Vitamin C stimulates both *TH1*, and *TH2*.
Pau D' Arco stimulates both *TH1*, and *TH2*.
Grapefruit Seed Extract stimulates the *TH1* system.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

woogyboogy said:


> I agree with you, it isn't a Diagnosis, but we are getting closer to a Diagnosis. Unfortunately just not as quickly as I'd like.
> 
> I will look into Lemon Grass for the fungal issues.
> 
> *Also, we mentioned the Advantage to him and he said there would be no problems with re applying it this coming week*.


I've been following your story since day one and I am so very sorry that you and your Fur Baby are going thru this!

Just my opinion here, but if he were mine, I would not apply ANY chemicals to his weakened system.

Wishing you and your baby the best,
Moms


Flea and Tick Medicine Poisoning in Dogs | petMD An adverse reaction to any of these toxins (Flea control meds) will affect the dog's nervous system, reversibly prolonging sodium conductance in nerve axons, and resulting in repetitive nerve discharges. *These reactions occur more frequently in small dogs, and young, old, sick, or debilitated animals.*


The Dangers Of Flea And Tick Products | Dogs Naturally Magazine Dr. Khalsa : “Advantage contains the active ingredient Imidacloprid. In laboratory studies Imidacoprid has been found to increase cholesterol levels in dogs, cause thyroid lesions, create liver toxicity, and has the potential for damaging the liver, heart, lungs, spleen, adrenals, brain, and gonads. As a neurotoxin, it can cause incoordination along with labored breathing and muscle weakness. When this drug was tested after its introduction in 1994, researchers found an increase in the frequency of birth defects when it was tested on rats, mice and dogs.
In the Journal of Pesticide Reform, author Caroline Cox exposes thyroid lesions as a result of exposure to imidacloprid. Most people think that the pyrethrins (naturally occurring compounds from the chrysanthemum plant) and pyrethroids (the synthetic counterpart) are less hazardous than other tick and flea preventive ingredients. Data from pyrethroid-based insecticides was recently made public through the Freedom of Information Act and analyzed by CPI. According to CPI, from 2002 through 2007, at least 1,600 pet deaths related to spot-on treatments with the above mentioned ingredients were reported to the EPA. That was nearly double the reported fatalities linked to flea treatments without pyrethroids.”

Human Society Of The USA: Flea and Tick Product Ingredients: What You Should Know : The Humane Society of the United States


----------



## woogyboogy

Momto2GSDs said:


> I've been following your story since day one and I am so very sorry that you and your Fur Baby are going thru this!
> 
> Just my opinion here, but if he were mine, I would not apply ANY chemicals to his weakened system.
> 
> Wishing you and your baby the best,
> Moms
> 
> 
> Flea and Tick Medicine Poisoning in Dogs | petMD An adverse reaction to any of these toxins (Flea control meds) will affect the dog's nervous system, reversibly prolonging sodium conductance in nerve axons, and resulting in repetitive nerve discharges. *These reactions occur more frequently in small dogs, and young, old, sick, or debilitated animals.*
> 
> 
> The Dangers Of Flea And Tick Products | Dogs Naturally Magazine Dr. Khalsa : “Advantage contains the active ingredient Imidacloprid. In laboratory studies Imidacoprid has been found to increase cholesterol levels in dogs, cause thyroid lesions, create liver toxicity, and has the potential for damaging the liver, heart, lungs, spleen, adrenals, brain, and gonads. As a neurotoxin, it can cause incoordination along with labored breathing and muscle weakness. When this drug was tested after its introduction in 1994, researchers found an increase in the frequency of birth defects when it was tested on rats, mice and dogs.
> In the Journal of Pesticide Reform, author Caroline Cox exposes thyroid lesions as a result of exposure to imidacloprid. Most people think that the pyrethrins (naturally occurring compounds from the chrysanthemum plant) and pyrethroids (the synthetic counterpart) are less hazardous than other tick and flea preventive ingredients. Data from pyrethroid-based insecticides was recently made public through the Freedom of Information Act and analyzed by CPI. According to CPI, from 2002 through 2007, at least 1,600 pet deaths related to spot-on treatments with the above mentioned ingredients were reported to the EPA. That was nearly double the reported fatalities linked to flea treatments without pyrethroids.”
> 
> Human Society Of The USA: Flea and Tick Product Ingredients: What You Should Know : The Humane Society of the United States


Thank you for the support, and info. 

What else is their besides Trifexis, and Advantage Multi that we could use?


----------



## Momto2GSDs

woogyboogy said:


> Thank you for the support, and info.
> 
> What else is their besides Trifexis, and Advantage Multi that we could use?


Are you having flea problems that you HAVE to use something right now while he is in crisis?


----------



## woogyboogy

Momto2GSDs said:


> Are you having flea problems that you HAVE to use something right now while he is in crisis?


No, but here in Florida, fleas, mosquitoes, and ticks are very common.

We would really prefer to not leave him unprotected.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

woogyboogy said:


> No, but here in Florida, fleas, mosquitoes, and ticks are very common.
> 
> We would really prefer to not leave him unprotected.


I use these 2 tags + Garlic:

Only Natural Pet EasyDefense Flea & Tick Tag for Dogs & Cats

TickLess Pet Ultrasonic Tick & Flea Repellent Device Pendant for Dogs & Cats 

Moms


----------



## carmspack

I really need to go back and find the study which gives ties to DM and flea and tick pesticide use . They said this particularly with GSD in mind. 

It's going to take a while - but I will try to find it .


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> I really need to go back and find the study which gives ties to DM and flea and tick pesticide use . They said this particularly with GSD in mind.
> 
> It's going to take a while - but I will try to find it .


If you can find it that would be great!
Thank you so much!


----------



## woogyboogy

I can't believe I haven't thought of it until now, but here is a picture of our boy Loki.

Now you guys will be able to put a face to all of this talk haha


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Absolutely GORGEOUS!


----------



## carmspack

you have a lot of people rallying behind you -- yes that is a gorgeous dog -- let's get him all right and put this episode in the distant past 

I sure would like a forensics on this case.


----------



## woogyboogy

Momto2GSDs said:


> Absolutely GORGEOUS!


Thank you so much, all I want for him is to be healthy!


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> you have a lot of people rallying behind you -- yes that is a gorgeous dog -- let's get him all right and put this episode in the distant past
> 
> I sure would like a forensics on this case.


Thank you so much, I am very determined to get this fixed, and have him back at 100%.


----------



## Courtney

I have been silently following your thread- not contributing because I didn't want to take away from those that were trying to offer help.

He's a GORGEOUS pup! I'm really pulling for this boy and for the careful hand & wisdom of those caring for him. 

I too, agree not to apply any flea meds right now. I understand the area your in but also imagine he's on somewhat of "bed rest" right now


----------



## woogyboogy

Courtney said:


> I have been silently following your thread- not contributing because I didn't want to take away from those that were trying to offer help.
> 
> He's a GORGEOUS pup! I'm really pulling for this boy and for the careful hand & wisdom of those caring for him.
> 
> I too, agree not to apply any flea meds right now. I understand the area your in but also imagine he's on somewhat of "bed rest" right now


Thanks for the support, We may just end up putting him back on Trifexis until everything is settled.


----------



## lalachka

woogyboogy said:


> Thanks for the support, We may just end up putting him back on Trifexis until everything is settled.



I read bad things about trifexis. Dogs dying and stuff. If you must use a chemical then advantage is the safest. But I wouldn't use anything.


----------



## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> I read bad things about trifexis. Dogs dying and stuff. If you must use a chemical then advantage is the safest. But I wouldn't use anything.


Is there any other oral methods?

When we got him as a pup he started Trifexis until he was about 4 months (Guessing), but then the Vet switched him to Advantage Multi because he was outside the majority of the time.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

woogyboogy said:


> Thanks for the support, We may just end up putting him back on *Trifexis* until everything is settled.


Oh No! Probably worse!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/372658-owners-blame-700-dog-deaths-trifexis.html 

From Trifexis site: "Additional adverse reactions observed in the clinical studies were *itching*, decreased activity, diarrhea, *inflammation of the skin, redness of the skin, *decreased appetite and redness of the ear."

"Reporter Jim Strickland from Atlanta has obtained the detailed clinical reports on the adverse events from Trifexis®. In its short life, (it’s been on the market for about 3 years) the drug has resulted in the following reports:"
Emesis: 23,360 number of times reported
Lethargy: 7,366
Lack of Efficacy: 5,707
Vomiting: 4,570
Ineffective, fleas: 2,870
Diarrhea: 2,468
Behavioral disorders: 1,448
Seiaures: 1,363
Pruritis: 1,044
Anorexia: 1,028
Itching: 1,017
Ataxia: 953
Shaking: 930
Ineffective: hookworms: 916
Ineffective: heart worm larvae: 810

*Owners blame 700 dog deaths on Trifexis:* Owners blame 700 dog deaths on Trifexis | www.wsbtv.com

“Trifexis® and Comfortis® both carry warnings about this on their websites. Vomiting, loose stools, bloody diarrhea were the most common adverse reactions during Comfortis® trials. There are also some reports of seizure like symptoms, lethargy, weight loss and respiratory issues.”

https://www.facebook.com/TrifexisKillsDogs


----------



## woogyboogy

Momto2GSDs said:


> Oh No! Probably worse!
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/372658-owners-blame-700-dog-deaths-trifexis.html
> 
> From Trifexis site: "Additional adverse reactions observed in the clinical studies were *itching*, decreased activity, diarrhea, *inflammation of the skin, redness of the skin, *decreased appetite and redness of the ear."
> 
> "Reporter Jim Strickland from Atlanta has obtained the detailed clinical reports on the adverse events from Trifexis®. In its short life, (it’s been on the market for about 3 years) the drug has resulted in the following reports:"
> Emesis: 23,360 number of times reported
> Lethargy: 7,366
> Lack of Efficacy: 5,707
> Vomiting: 4,570
> Ineffective, fleas: 2,870
> Diarrhea: 2,468
> Behavioral disorders: 1,448
> Seiaures: 1,363
> Pruritis: 1,044
> Anorexia: 1,028
> Itching: 1,017
> Ataxia: 953
> Shaking: 930
> Ineffective: hookworms: 916
> Ineffective: heart worm larvae: 810
> 
> *Owners blame 700 dog deaths on Trifexis:* Owners blame 700 dog deaths on Trifexis | www.wsbtv.com
> 
> “Trifexis® and Comfortis® both carry warnings about this on their websites. Vomiting, loose stools, bloody diarrhea were the most common adverse reactions during Comfortis® trials. There are also some reports of seizure like symptoms, lethargy, weight loss and respiratory issues.”
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/TrifexisKillsDogs


Why in the world is this product still allowed to be purchased???


----------



## lalachka

woogyboogy said:


> Why in the world is this product still allowed to be purchased???



Most dogs live through it so I guess that why. I'm just as puzzled. You have to do your own research on everything. I stopped trusting vets. Either most of them suck or all the ones that suck move to my area and open offices. I've been to 6 offices and it's all the same. People at the park have been to 4 I haven't been to. Same stuff.


----------



## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> Most dogs live through it so I guess that why. I'm just as puzzled. You have to do your own research on everything. I stopped trusting vets. Either most of them suck or all the ones that suck move to my area and open offices. I've been to 6 offices and it's all the same. People at the park have been to 4 I haven't been to. Same stuff.


Our boy Loki was on it for a couple months and he seemed fine.

Also, since this is our first dog, we haven't really had the "opportunity" to discover sub-par vets yet. But I'm sure we will in the future, unfortunately.


----------



## llombardo

My vet recommended trifexis. I bought it, researched it, and brought if back. I wonder if Nexgard would be safer? I would be hesitant to give anything that can compromise his immune system now. I used a cedar oil spray that worked good for a few different things Flea, Tick and Mite Control Cedar Oil Spray for Dogs and Cats. Dr. Ben's Paws & Claws - 16 oz. DG Cedar Oil. By the way, he is a beautiful dog, but that doesn't matter, because no matter what we want him to get better.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> My vet recommended trifexis. I bought it, researched it, and brought if back. I wonder if Nexgard would be safer? I would be hesitant to give anything that can compromise his immune system now. I used a cedar oil spray that worked good for a few different things Flea, Tick and Mite Control Cedar Oil Spray for Dogs and Cats. Dr. Ben's Paws & Claws - 16 oz. DG Cedar Oil. By the way, he is a beautiful dog, but that doesn't matter, because no matter what we want him to get better.


Yeah I'm not sure...this is just another headache that I have to research.:crazy:


----------



## LisaT

*I would not use Trifexis.* Ever. I'm on that FB group, and the number of dogs getting sick directly after administration, and many dying, is a crime. Trifexis has paid for a number of autopsies, which end up ruling out other causes of death, but, unfortunately, they can't prove the cause was Trifexis itself. Some show some serious organ damage which could not be attributed to other causes. One thing that bothers me is that it builds up in the system. The time for the body to eliminate it increases the longer it is used. I do not know if it plateaus at some point, the study I read only went out a certain amount of months of administration. *This drug should not be on the market.

*Oh, I use a spray i mix with the drops from Mad About Organics, and add extra catnip. I do agree that keeping the ticks, etc. away are very important.

Just a note, some dogs can't tolerate garlic - it can cause stomach upset, and in some dogs it can cause incontinence (something about the sulphur).


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> One of my friends who is a Pharmacist recently told me about Grapefruit Seed Extract, and how beneficial it is. It has very high amounts of disease-fighting, free-radical eliminating antioxidants and phytonutrients called bioflavonoids. One of these powerful bioflavanoids (plant antioxidants) include the chemical component hesperidin, which is a well-known natural immune-system stimulator and booster, So we decided to add this to his regime as well.
> 
> From what I've researched so far;
> 
> Echinacea stimulates the *TH1* system.
> Vitamin C stimulates both *TH1*, and *TH2*.
> Pau D' Arco stimulates both *TH1*, and *TH2*.
> Grapefruit Seed Extract stimulates the *TH1* system.


I didn't find the Pau D'Arco info, so glad you found it.

I saw lists that say Echinacea stimulates both and some say just TH1, but I couldn't find the actual studies, but seems to primarily TH1. That's an herb that might be good to cycle/rotate with another.

I have heard good things about GSE, but have never used it.

A good bioflavanoid product with the hesperidin and quercetin, etc. would be good. A good proteolytic enzyme formulation, like Wobenzym, with bromelian is very helpful. I'm not keen on the coating on the Wobenzym, others might have favorite similar products. 

Important to not overdose on any of these, try to add one at a time, separated by about 3 days, though you might see a reaction after a longer period of time.


----------



## katieliz

yes, unfortunately you have to research EVERYTHING a veterinarian or doc tells you. everything. PITA, but we all must protect ourselves and our pets. 

springtime, inc., has a product called bug-off garlic which many people here use. my personal experience is that i have four dogs, have been using it for years, and have only found a tick once, and never any fleas. i never, ever use any chemical products on my kidz, and only vaccinate as absolutely required by law (rabies every three years). don't vaccinate my old girl at all anymore.


----------



## woogyboogy

This is seriously so stressful now trying to deal with proper flea, tick, heartworm etc prevention.........:crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

Our vet on Saturday literally said "You guys are ok to apply the Advantage Multi whenever you want":crazy:


----------



## selzer

I think, being you are in Florida, that you might consider using a topical flea spray when you go out. I think Adams has a spray that works. The thing is, it doesn't go into the dog's blood stream and from there effect the immune system, etc. 

So if fleas are a real problem, a topical flea/mosquito/fly spray may be better than a monthly treatment. 

Good luck.


----------



## katieliz

do not despair!!! you are in a good place to get help. you are doing all the right things...but you're being forced to absorb all this info, filter the valid from the not valid, and learn things while you're stressed, which is so incredibly hard. you are in the middle of a hurricane, hang on...the calm will come.

(((big hugs))) to all your family, human and canine.


----------



## ugavet2012

What ever you do, do NOT come off heartworm prevention! You live in fla and it's summer, that would be enormously stupid, stupid, stupid. Your dog is not so sick to even consider it. I don't give 2 craps who I offend with this, but there are NO, NONE WHATSOEVER proven "natural " heartworm preventions and that disease can kill your dog before you even know they are positive. My dog came up positive while in GA on generic heartguard, and I was so sad for her. Every day I worried about her and was scared to death that she would at any point throw an embolism of worms and die. She is extremely low threshold/high drive so anything exciting at all would set her off into a trembling, spinning, excited mess. My professors dog almost died going through the treatment (she adopted him positive), and he only lived after she spent $8,000! on him. Do not let anyone on here or anywhere make you think you are weakening your dogs immune system or whatever by keeping him safe from heartworm.


----------



## woogyboogy

Yeah, but I'm at a complete loss as for what to use for a flea, tick, heartworm etc prevention.

I really don't know how I feel about the "apply as needed" methods. Here in Florida, Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks are EXTREMELY common, and if for some reason, we FORGET to spray him one day with the "apply as needed" method, I don't need any complications with Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks:crazy:

I seriously want to crawl into a cave...

If it weren't for this boy, I would.


----------



## ugavet2012

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah, but I'm at a complete loss as for what to use for a flea, tick, heartworm etc prevention.
> 
> I really don't know how I feel about the "apply as needed" methods. Here in Florida, Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks are EXTREMELY common, and if for some reason, we FORGET to spray him one day with the "apply as needed" method, I don't need any complications with Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks:crazy:
> 
> I seriously want to crawl into a cave...
> 
> If it weren't for this boy, I would.


Well I wouldn't personally go with an ivermectin based product because of high possibility of resistance in the south (maybe that's what happened to my dog?) so since interceptor is off the market, sentinel spectrum is your next best bet. I am growing increasing uncomfortable with spinosad (trifexis/comfortis).


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah, but I'm at a complete loss as for what to use for a flea, tick, heartworm etc prevention.
> 
> I really don't know how I feel about the "apply as needed" methods. Here in Florida, Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks are EXTREMELY common, and if for some reason, we FORGET to spray him one day with the "apply as needed" method, I don't need any complications with Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks:crazy:
> 
> I seriously want to crawl into a cave...
> 
> If it weren't for this boy, I would.


I wouldn't stop heartworm medication, but I might consider ever 45 days with no room for human error in giving it. Lots of people give milk thistle for a couple weeks after dosing for liver support. Check this out for fleas and ticks Flea, Tick and Mite Control Cedar Oil Spray for Dogs and Cats. Dr. Ben's Paws & Claws - 16 oz. DG Cedar Oil. I use it and it works. You might want to check into Nexgard and Scalibor collars. The Scalibor collar had worked great for me. It creates a barrier on the fur, I don't think it gets into the blood or skin, the dogs natural oils help it. I have found one tick and it was on the floor, carried in by the dog but it fell off. http://www.scalibor-usa.com/scalibor-protection-band/tick-control-for-dogs.aspx


----------



## Courtney

I agree with the heartworm prevention...no way would I risk that (I give Heartgard and Frontline).

I suggested not giving flea/tick meds right now only because I assumed he was not going to be active outside while he's recovering but you know your area best- giving it may not have an negative effect at all. Sorry for all the confusion


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> I wouldn't stop heartworm medication, but I might consider ever 45 days with no room for human error in giving it. Lots of people give milk thistle for a couple weeks after dosing for lived support. Check this out for fleas and ticks Flea, Tick and Mite Control Cedar Oil Spray for Dogs and Cats. Dr. Ben's Paws & Claws - 16 oz. DG Cedar Oil. I use it and it works.


The whole theory with your advice on Cedar Oil spray means, it's "apply as needed". Here in Florida, Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks are EXTREMELY common, and if for some reason, we FORGET to spray him one day with the "apply as needed" method, I don't need any complications with Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> The whole theory with your advice on Cedar Oil spray means, it's "apply as needed". Here in Florida, Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks are EXTREMELY common, and if for some reason, we FORGET to spray him one day with the "apply as needed" method, I don't need any complications with Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks


I edited my post and added a couple other things for fleas and ticks. There aren't going to be to many options for fleas and ticks.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Our vet on Saturday literally said "You guys are ok to apply the Advantage Multi whenever you want":crazy:


The hardest thing to learn when first getting involved with dogs, as katieliz mentioned, is having to double check everything and see if it fits with your philosophy of care.

I double check everything.


----------



## katieliz

if i, in any way, gave the impression that i was talking about heartworm prevention that was sure not my intention.


----------



## LisaT

I am not a fan of the all in one products, they are becoming increasingly toxic. I would consider Sentinal for HW, and give every 40-45 days. I'm finishing up the last of my Interceptor, and facing a similar dilemma, not knowing whether I should trust Heartguard, though I probably will. The issue with the fleas/ticks depends on how frequently he will be exposed right now.

I would try the Springtime product for ticks and fleas (not HW), many have success with it, as long as the dog tolerates the garlic. And remember, it may help him with the pythiosis: http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1380724921_Zanette%20et%20al.pdf


----------



## donna.cerabone

There are several natural solutions. Essential oils like cedarwood, pennyroyal or citronella deters pests. Rub a few drops onto your hands and rub on dog's coat when brushing them every day. 
Putting a 1/4 tspn of nutritional yeast into feed helps decrease fleabites They do not like the taste of it. Also, placing a line of diatomatous earth around the parameter of the kennel yard, house or edges of the indoor rooms can prevent insects. It is not dangerous, but I would not let dogs lay in it (it may irritate them) It is used in swimming pool filtration. Bugs cannot cross it without being cut up. Use it for roaches or bedbugs too. I hope this is helpful.


----------



## Jax08

ugavet2012 said:


> What ever you do, do NOT come off heartworm prevention! You live in fla and it's summer, that would be enormously stupid, stupid, stupid.


YES!!! I would not take a chance on giving 45 days (fda recommendation) either if you think there is a chance you would forget



woogyboogy said:


> I really don't know how I feel about the "apply as needed" methods. Here in Florida, Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks are EXTREMELY common, and if for some reason, we FORGET to spray him one day with the "apply as needed" method, I don't need any complications with Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks:crazy:
> 
> .


I use Advantix. I have an issue with having to use a spot on AND then a pill for heartworm that also kills fleas. That's a double dosage but I guess there isn't much that can be done about that since they took Interceptor off the market. But then I live in an area where heartworm is very low. However, Lyme's is very high and I've seen it ravage my BIL's body. I dont' screw around with it. I just use the spot on.


----------



## selzer

Jax08 said:


> YES!!! I would not take a chance on giving 45 days (fda recommendation) either if you think there is a chance you would forget
> 
> 
> 
> I use Advantix. I have an issue with having to use a spot on AND then a pill for heartworm that also kills fleas. That's a double dosage but I guess there isn't much that can be done about that since they took Interceptor off the market. But then I live in an area where heartworm is very low. However, Lyme's is very high and I've seen it ravage my BIL's body. I dont' screw around with it. I just use the spot on.


Do you get the Lyme's disease vaccine for your dogs?


----------



## Jax08

selzer said:


> Do you get the Lyme's disease vaccine for your dogs?


Yes, Jax has had it the last two years. Only the Nobivac one. Not the old Fort Dodge one


----------



## woogyboogy

I still have no idea what to do for Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> I still have no idea what to do for Mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks


I would really look into the Scalibor Collar. I don't believe it enters the skin or blood stream. I did let them sit out if the package for a couple days and they take a couple weeks to start working.It would require, dare I say it , some research


----------



## woogyboogy

The Scalibor Collar reviews online aren't really that positive


----------



## Heidigsd

ugavet2012 said:


> What ever you do, do NOT come off heartworm prevention! You live in fla and it's summer, that would be enormously stupid, stupid, stupid. Your dog is not so sick to even consider it. I don't give 2 craps who I offend with this, but there are NO, NONE WHATSOEVER proven "natural " heartworm preventions and that disease can kill your dog before you even know they are positive. My dog came up positive while in GA on generic heartguard, and I was so sad for her. Every day I worried about her and was scared to death that she would at any point throw an embolism of worms and die. She is extremely low threshold/high drive so anything exciting at all would set her off into a trembling, spinning, excited mess. My professors dog almost died going through the treatment (she adopted him positive), and he only lived after she spent $8,000! on him. Do not let anyone on here or anywhere make you think you are weakening your dogs immune system or whatever by keeping him safe from heartworm.


Great post :thumbup:


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> The Scalibor Collar reviews online aren't really that positive


I think the biggest complaint was irritation to the dogs neck. Someone posted how to let the collar sit out of the package for a couple days to lessen the residue. I used it on 6 dogs without any irritation on any of them doing it that way. I have not seen a flea and we had one tick which was not on the dog but on the floor, it fell off the dog. I live in a wooded area with lots if fleas and ticks and we go hiking and the dogs are in the brush//higher grass.


----------



## Jax08

There is a Seresto collar made by the same makers of Advantix that my vet is highly recommending A friend told me it's working really well for her.


----------



## Courtney

Perhaps go with what you know and what he's been on.


----------



## woogyboogy

So basically no one is in favor of any "All in One" type approach?

What is the best heartworm prevention?


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> There is a Seresto collar made by the same makers of Advantix that my vet is highly recommending A friend told me it's working really well for her.


This one doesn't look to bad. The only downside for me or anyone that has swimmers would be that if dogs swim more then once a month the collar goes from being good for 8 months to 5 months. So to be safe I would probably replace this one every 4 months.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> This one doesn't look to bad. The only downside for me or anyone that has swimmers would be that if dogs swim more then once a month the collar goes from being good for 8 months to 5 months. So to be safe I would probably replace this one every 4 months.


I just don't know how I feel about the whole "collar" situation. I don't think I would want to go that route.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> So basically no one is in favor of any "All in One" type approach?
> 
> What is the best heartworm prevention?


I would be but there is no "all in one" approach as far as I know. Everything is missing something. They took interceptor off the market and brought it back with additional ingredients and gave it a new name. And many people don't need everything. I need heartworm from May to December. At the most! We have very low rate of heartworm and I rarely see a mosquito. What I do need is tick protection. Yes, there is a Lyme's vaccine but there are many tick diseases that are spreading north.

I guess what I'm telling you is there is no single answer because what is needed changes per region.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> I just don't know how I feel about the whole "collar" situation. I don't think I would want to go that route.


I understand. I used to feel the same way about the collars.Since I have multiple dogs I needed something that would work on all of them. It boils down to picking your poison, because that is what these things are


----------



## woogyboogy

I guess we are going to try to get Sentinel (Sentinel for Dogs - Heartworm & Flea Prevention - 1800PetMeds)

Still up in the air for tick prevention


----------



## woogyboogy

I might possibly just go without Tick prevention until his incision is fully healed. Not really sure what my other options are


----------



## woogyboogy

I'm sorry If I don't seem as responsive as I was the past couple days. I think all of the stress is just really getting to me.

I still am beyond appreciative of all of the help and support you guys have given me, I greatly appreciate it and I hope you can understand.

We are going to call the Vet tomorrow, I will keep everyone updated...Today has been a very, long tiring day.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> I might possibly just go without Tick prevention until his incision is fully healed. Not really sure what my other options are


That's what I would. It won't be that long before it's healed. he can't go racing around outside until it's healed. Maybe get some essential oils and put a little on his ears if you take him for a walk (which should be done on leash right now). Just don't take hm for walks in tall grass/weeds where ticks might be and look him over carefully when he comes in.


----------



## selzer

Yes, generally the ticks have to be on for a while to transmit diseases. If you can look him over when he comes in, you should be ok.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> That's what I would. It won't be that long before it's healed. he can't go racing around outside until it's healed. Maybe get some essential oils and put a little on his ears if you take him for a walk (which should be done on leash right now). Just don't take hm for walks in tall grass/weeds where ticks might be and look him over carefully when he comes in.


Ok sounds like a good plan, what essential oils do you recommend?


----------



## woogyboogy

selzer said:


> Yes, generally the ticks have to be on for a while to transmit diseases. If you can look him over when he comes in, you should be ok.


Gotcha, I didn't know that. We are checking him constantly now for a reappearing lesion, and we will add tick watch to that as well haha


----------



## woogyboogy

After the incision has fully healed, I think we might purchase this for the Tick Prevention;

Amazon.com : Pet Armor FastAct Flea Tick Spray (16 oz) : Pet Supplies

If you guys think that is a bad idea, let me know.


----------



## Heidigsd

woogyboogy: Before you go applying essential oils to your dog you might want to talk to your vet about it first to make sure it's ok: 

Essential Oil and Liquid Potpourri Toxicity in Dogs and Cats | VCA Animal Hospitals


----------



## katieliz

again, springtime inc., bug-off garlic granules. safe. *easy.* works (needs a bit of a build-up time). not expensive. and as lisat posted, might even be beneficial to your boy's condition.

way better than going without. i've also heard (and had a personal experience where), essential oils were toxic to animals.

take some time between updates. rest your brain. sending good thoughts.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

woogyboogy said:


> After the incision has fully healed, I think we might purchase this for the Tick Prevention;
> 
> Amazon.com : Pet Armor FastAct Flea Tick Spray (16 oz) : Pet Supplies
> 
> If you guys think that is a bad idea, let me know.


Have you seen Jocoyn's thread about her "No Chem Garlic Preventive Journey"? She uses Springtime Garlic which was mentioned earlier in this thread. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...346-my-no-chem-garlic-preventive-journey.html 

I truly don't mean to add to your stress, just worried about your boy and these types of chemicals. The Pet Armor products contain Fipronil:
"Dr. Dobozy of the EPA’s Pesticide Division took a look at Fipronil and _found that it does in fact enter the body and was contained in the fat, organs, urine and feces of dogs. Laboratory tests have shown that with long term exposure at low doses, fipronil has the potential for nervous system and thyroid toxicity, thyroid cancer,__ altered thyroid hormone levels, liver toxicity, kidney damage, convulsions, whining, barking, crying, loss of appetite, locomotor difficulty, reduced fertility, fetus mortality, smaller offspring, loss of hair at or beyond the point of application, moist inflammation, chemical burn and itching."_ Read the whole article on page 24 here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/2012/May2012.pdf

Moms


----------



## LisaT

Fibronil has no repellant activity, ticks and things can still bite. Eventually ticks will be killed, but they can still get the bite in. Transmission of some tick diseases can be fairly quick, longer for others.


----------



## llombardo

LisaT said:


> Fibronil has no repellant activity, ticks and things can still bite. Eventually ticks will be killed, but they can still get the bite in. Transmission of some tick diseases can be fairly quick, longer for others.


^^This^^ is why I went with the collar. Fleas and ticks can't get a bite in with the collar.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

checking in on this, personally I would NOT as ugavet suggested, stop your heartworm meds.

With that, I would go with the sentinel. I'm using it on my mini aussie, basically for the heartworm factor, my dogs haven't had 'fleas' in years. She seems to do fine on it.

As for the ticks, well, just do a nightly tick check. I believe they have to be attached to the dog/human for 24 hours, altho I'm sure they can 'inject' whatever nasty stuff they inject any time. 

I LIVE in Lyme, CT, I've found 1 tick so far this year crawling on the dogs. I am in the woods ALOT, I've found when it's really HOT, ticks aren't around as much,,not sure how it is with you down in Florida.

At this point, and it's just my opinion, I wouldn't put to much "stuff" into/on the dog until you get a handle on whatever else he has / had going on.


----------



## woogyboogy

Heidigsd said:


> woogyboogy: Before you go applying essential oils to your dog you might want to talk to your vet about it first to make sure it's ok:
> 
> Essential Oil and Liquid Potpourri Toxicity in Dogs and Cats | VCA Animal Hospitals


Thanks for that article, definitely a good read. We will hold off on that.


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> again, springtime inc., bug-off garlic granules. safe. *easy.* works (needs a bit of a build-up time). not expensive. and as lisat posted, might even be beneficial to your boy's condition.
> 
> way better than going without. i've also heard (and had a personal experience where), essential oils were toxic to animals.
> 
> take some time between updates. rest your brain. sending good thoughts.


This is definitely a strong option, however after hearing bad things about Garlic in dogs, I'm skeptical.


----------



## woogyboogy

Momto2GSDs said:


> Have you seen Jocoyn's thread about her "No Chem Garlic Preventive Journey"? She uses Springtime Garlic which was mentioned earlier in this thread. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...346-my-no-chem-garlic-preventive-journey.html
> 
> I truly don't mean to add to your stress, just worried about your boy and these types of chemicals. The Pet Armor products contain Fipronil:
> "Dr. Dobozy of the EPA’s Pesticide Division took a look at Fipronil and _found that it does in fact enter the body and was contained in the fat, organs, urine and feces of dogs. Laboratory tests have shown that with long term exposure at low doses, fipronil has the potential for nervous system and thyroid toxicity, thyroid cancer,__ altered thyroid hormone levels, liver toxicity, kidney damage, convulsions, whining, barking, crying, loss of appetite, locomotor difficulty, reduced fertility, fetus mortality, smaller offspring, loss of hair at or beyond the point of application, moist inflammation, chemical burn and itching."_ Read the whole article on page 24 here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/2012/May2012.pdf
> 
> Moms


Thanks for those 2 links, I'm still skeptical on giving him Garlic after reading a lot of negative things about what it can do to dogs.

But I will definitely not be giving him an spray, like the Fipronil.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Fibronil has no repellant activity, ticks and things can still bite. Eventually ticks will be killed, but they can still get the bite in. Transmission of some tick diseases can be fairly quick, longer for others.


Gotcha, I was totally unaware of Fipronil, and will certainly not be giving him anything like that.


----------



## blackshep

I haven't read everything, but I did see the diagnosis.

I'm very sorry you're dealing with this, I don't have any advice because I've never heard of it before, but I hope it's something you're able to manage!

((hugs))


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> ^^This^^ is why I went with the collar. Fleas and ticks can't get a bite in with the collar.


I know you like the colllar, but I just don't know how I feel about how reliable it is...it scares me that just by giving him a bath with it on, removes its potency that easily?


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> checking in on this, personally I would NOT as ugavet suggested, stop your heartworm meds.
> 
> With that, I would go with the sentinel. I'm using it on my mini aussie, basically for the heartworm factor, my dogs haven't had 'fleas' in years. She seems to do fine on it.
> 
> As for the ticks, well, just do a nightly tick check. I believe they have to be attached to the dog/human for 24 hours, altho I'm sure they can 'inject' whatever nasty stuff they inject any time.
> 
> I LIVE in Lyme, CT, I've found 1 tick so far this year crawling on the dogs. I am in the woods ALOT, I've found when it's really HOT, ticks aren't around as much,,not sure how it is with you down in Florida.
> 
> At this point, and it's just my opinion, I wouldn't put to much "stuff" into/on the dog until you get a handle on whatever else he has / had going on.


Thank you very much, We are going to get the Sentinel this week and start him on that, but are still confused about a Tick Preventative.

So you don't give your dogs anything for ticks, you just check them everyday?


----------



## woogyboogy

blackshep said:


> I haven't read everything, but I did see the diagnosis.
> 
> I'm very sorry you're dealing with this, I don't have any advice because I've never heard of it before, but I hope it's something you're able to manage!
> 
> ((hugs))


Thank you for your support!


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> I know you like the colllar, but I just don't know how I feel about how reliable it is...it scares me that just by giving him a bath with it on, removes its potency that easily?


Well the one I have hasn't been an issue. My dogs have had a couple baths and go swimming all the time and we are in the woods. One tick and it wasn't on the dog, it fell off. I do still check them daily. I put it on in March and will be changing to a new one in August sometime. Nothing is full proof or guaranteed. I would prefer to use nothing. I also have my yard sprayed for Mosquitos,fleas and ticks every 3 weeks, that helps at home. I believe they use the same ingredient that is in the collar.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> Ok sounds like a good plan, what essential oils do you recommend?


I do not use them. I do know that you can not put essential oils directly on skin. You must have a carrier fluid. If I were going to use essential oils (which I do use natural sprays occasionally for gnats), I only use a commercial product that is properly mixed.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

woogyboogy said:


> Thanks for those 2 links, I'm still skeptical on giving him Garlic after reading a lot of negative things about what it can do to dogs.
> 
> But I will definitely not be giving him an spray, like the Fipronil.



I've been using fresh Garlic and certain Essential Oils for over 15 years as a bug repellant and have never had a problem. The issue with garlic is if you feed way too much.

I hope you seriously consider the Springtime Bug Off! Garlic has many medicinal properties besides repelling those pesky "little bugger's" 

Thinking about you and your baby anticipating your appointment today!
Moms


----------



## katieliz

I felt EXACTLY the same way about the garlic issue, but after exhaustive research and the recommendations of many people here who use it, 4-6 years ago I began using it. I have never had, or even known of anyone here who had, a problem with it. It's processed in some special, way to be safe. Post a question here in the health section, asking for people's experiences with it. You'll not likely see any negatives.


----------



## woogyboogy

Momto2GSDs said:


> I've been using fresh Garlic and certain Essential Oils for over 15 years as a bug repellant and have never had a problem. The issue with garlic is if you feed way too much.
> 
> I hope you seriously consider the Springtime Bug Off! Garlic has many medicinal properties besides repelling those pesky "little bugger's"
> 
> Thinking about you and your baby anticipating your appointment today!
> Moms


We are strongly considering the Garlic, I just need more time to research it. Thanks again for the support!


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> I felt EXACTLY the same way about the garlic issue, but after exhaustive research and the recommendations of many people here who use it, 4-6 years ago I began using it. I have never had, or even known of anyone here who had, a problem with it. It's processed in some special, way to be safe. Post a question here in the health section, asking for people's experiences with it. You'll not likely see any negatives.


Thanks for the input, I posted in a thread that has 20+ pages on the Spring Time Garlic product, we are just weighing our options right now, and trying to decide if it will have any adverse reactions with his current health condition.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

woogy, no I don't give my dogs anything for ticks, I have never had a dog come up positive for Lyme (I don't vac for it with my current dogs, and I stopped vac'ing for it with my previous dogs when they hit around 5 years old)

My dogs DO come up positive for anaplasmosis (equii erhlichia), they aren't clinical, but I do keep a close eye on them, and there is no vac for anything other than Lyme anyhow, so it wouldn't be effective.

I hear of many dogs who have had the lyme vac and still come up positive,


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> woogy, no I don't give my dogs anything for ticks, I have never had a dog come up positive for Lyme (I don't vac for it with my current dogs, and I stopped vac'ing for it with my previous dogs when they hit around 5 years old)
> 
> My dogs DO come up positive for anaplasmosis (equii erhlichia), they aren't clinical, but I do keep a close eye on them, and there is no vac for anything other than Lyme anyhow, so it wouldn't be effective.
> 
> I hear of many dogs who have had the lyme vac and still come up positive,


Ok thank you so much for that info, that is good to know!

I think for the time being we are going to keep him off any tick preventative and just check him constantly until all of this blows over.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

sounds like a plan


----------



## woogyboogy

Ok everyone, so we may have made what seems to be like an irrational decision, but we believe it is the best option, and hopefully a game changer for all of this.

I made an appointment with a DIFFERENT Vet for tomorrow morning at 8:40. She has worked in Miami, and a rural area close by us called Arcadia. She has also seen Pythiosis before when she was in school and I told her EVERYTHING over the phone. I was on the phone with her for over 20 minutes telling her everything from the beginning, til now.

I told her how Loki NEEDS a blood test, and she agreed with me 100%, and I told her about Bob Glass at Pav Labs who has the Vaccine, she wrote down all of his contact information, and even pulled up his website while I was on the phone with her.

I also told her about Dr. Leonel Mendoza who has been studying Pythiosis since 1981, and I gave her all of his contact information and she said she is going to contact him.

She seems very proactive and cannot wait to see us tomorrow.


----------



## Sunflowers

Well, thank goodness.

That is anything but irrational. That's very smart.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Well, thank goodness.
> 
> That is anything but irrational. That's very smart.


I knew you'd be the first to comment on this haha. 

Thanks for bring persistent with this


----------



## gsdsar

I think a second opinion is a great idea. Personally I would have chosen a vet that has actually dealt with the disease, not another one who hasn't, but if you are happy and you get the response you need, then I definitely wish you the best of luck. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

good . I didn't want to say much more because you are already stressed to the hilt. 
Your action was good because what ever the dog had , at least you prevented spreading or infection . Your vet did okay on this .
I will look forward to hearing the next vet's comments.
This is all new to me . Problems we don't have to contend with in the north . Learning experience . But just awful to deal with .
all my best -


----------



## Jax08

gsdsar said:


> I think a second opinion is a great idea. Personally I would have chosen a vet that has actually dealt with the disease, not another one who hasn't, but if you are happy and you get the response you need, then I definitely wish you the best of luck.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Agreed. I wish you could have found a specialist close to you. But if she's proactive then she should be able to get you were you need to go.


----------



## katieliz

not irrational at all. sounds like you are acting on instinct in the best interests of your dog. good job!

please don't forget to sleep and eat. and drink lots of water. you are under incredible stress.

(((hugs)))


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> not irrational at all. sounds like you are acting on instinct in the best interests of your dog. good job!
> 
> please don't forget to sleep and eat. and drink lots of water. you are under incredible stress.
> 
> (((hugs)))


Thanks and we are trying to take care of ourselves amidst all of this chaos.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Ok everyone, so we may have made what seems to be like an irrational decision, but we believe it is the best option, and hopefully a game changer for all of this.
> 
> I made an appointment with a DIFFERENT Vet for tomorrow morning at 8:40. She has worked in Miami, and a rural area close by us called Arcadia. She has also seen Pythiosis before when she was in school and I told her EVERYTHING over the phone. I was on the phone with her for over 20 minutes telling her everything from the beginning, til now.
> 
> I told her how Loki NEEDS a blood test, and she agreed with me 100%, and I told her about Bob Glass at Pav Labs who has the Vaccine, she wrote down all of his contact information, and even pulled up his website while I was on the phone with her.
> 
> I also told her about Dr. Leonel Mendoza who has been studying Pythiosis since 1981, and I gave her all of his contact information and she said she is going to contact him.
> 
> She seems very proactive and cannot wait to see us tomorrow.


Can't say I'm surprised or in disagreement with this decision.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Here's a thread garlic as a preventive:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...346-my-no-chem-garlic-preventive-journey.html


----------



## middleofnowhere

Great news. I hope the second opinion gets you the info you need. And that puppo is on the mend big time!


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Can't say I'm surprised or in disagreement with this decision.


Thanks, we are trying to solve this thing from every angle.


----------



## woogyboogy

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Here's a thread garlic as a preventive:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...346-my-no-chem-garlic-preventive-journey.html


Yeah I found that earlier and posted in it.

Realistically it only makes sense to start a tick preventative AFTER all of this is behind us.

Thank you for pointing that out though!


----------



## woogyboogy

middleofnowhere said:


> Great news. I hope the second opinion gets you the info you need. And that puppo is on the mend big time!


Thanks for the support!


----------



## Oliver'smom

*Nothing wrong with 2nd opinions*

I've been following your threat. First off, best wishes to Loki on his recovery and to you as you both get through this. You have dog people across the world sending positive thoughts your way including Ollie and I in Utah.

2nd opinions are a good thing! I'm a huge fan of getting a 2nd opinion when you just aren't sure what to do next. I don't have any experience with what you are dealing with as we (thankfully) get hard freezes in Utah. But I have sought 2nd opinions on 2 different dogs for different illnesses and each time it has helped and been the right call. 

It can be tough because you build up a relationship with a Vet, but sometimes fresh eyes and an open mind find the answer. Sometimes you need experience and sometimes you need someone a little fresher from Vet school and sometimes you need a specialist. A truly good Vet will accept input from colleagues and be ok. 

Our first dog ended up having a ruptured disc between his last vertebrate at the end of his tail. We started out with diagnosis all over the board from cancer, to the dog version of MS, and to finally the disc. Our regular vet referred us to a specialist and we ended up getting 2 opinions from different specialists. End result- we did back surgery and the dog recovered 80% of his mobility and lived until unrelated bone cancer caught up with him later. 

Incidentally his back surgery scar looked just about as big as Loki's. His hair grew back, undercoat first and then top coat. You couldn't see the scar. You could feel it, but you could see it. Be prepared for the top coat to take its sweet time coming in. We had to do sunscreen or t-shirts until the under coat covered the bald spot. 

My other 2nd opinion experience came with Ollie's allergies. Since his symptoms started as a young puppy, our original Vet was all over the place on testing and other causes. By the time we arrived at allergies as the problem, I had a miserable puppy, huge bills, and it was causing havoc at home. I didn't feel we were being listened to and some of the ideas I wanted to discuss- many that came from this forum- were poo-pooed by the Vet. So I saw a different Vet on a friend's recommendation. Way different experience. He listened to all the ideas, gave feedback on which were worth trying. Didn't laugh at my charts and calendar of symptoms. End results 9 months later allergies are under control, dog can be a dog again. Balance at home restored. Great relationship with new Vet. 

The only think you risk in a 2nd opinion is paying another consulting fee. My guess is at this point, Loki's has already racked up quite a bill so another $100~ or so to do a consult and testing, but gain peace of mind on treatment and direction is money well spent. 

Positive thoughts and healing wishes!


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Sulfur is a deterent to ticks. When I was in college I had a summer job with a topographic engineering company. We would go out and stake oil wells. We put sulfer in a sock and dusting around our waist, ankles, and neck to keep ticks off. 

I put sulfur pellets around my fence line to keep the rat snakes from crossing (horse ranch behind me). 

Just a thought.


----------



## woogyboogy

Oliver'smom said:


> I've been following your threat. First off, best wishes to Loki on his recovery and to you as you both get through this. You have dog people across the world sending positive thoughts your way including Ollie and I in Utah.
> 
> 2nd opinions are a good thing! I'm a huge fan of getting a 2nd opinion when you just aren't sure what to do next. I don't have any experience with what you are dealing with as we (thankfully) get hard freezes in Utah. But I have sought 2nd opinions on 2 different dogs for different illnesses and each time it has helped and been the right call.
> 
> It can be tough because you build up a relationship with a Vet, but sometimes fresh eyes and an open mind find the answer. Sometimes you need experience and sometimes you need someone a little fresher from Vet school and sometimes you need a specialist. A truly good Vet will accept input from colleagues and be ok.
> 
> Our first dog ended up having a ruptured disc between his last vertebrate at the end of his tail. We started out with diagnosis all over the board from cancer, to the dog version of MS, and to finally the disc. Our regular vet referred us to a specialist and we ended up getting 2 opinions from different specialists. End result- we did back surgery and the dog recovered 80% of his mobility and lived until unrelated bone cancer caught up with him later.
> 
> Incidentally his back surgery scar looked just about as big as Loki's. His hair grew back, undercoat first and then top coat. You couldn't see the scar. You could feel it, but you could see it. Be prepared for the top coat to take its sweet time coming in. We had to do sunscreen or t-shirts until the under coat covered the bald spot.
> 
> My other 2nd opinion experience came with Ollie's allergies. Since his symptoms started as a young puppy, our original Vet was all over the place on testing and other causes. By the time we arrived at allergies as the problem, I had a miserable puppy, huge bills, and it was causing havoc at home. I didn't feel we were being listened to and some of the ideas I wanted to discuss- many that came from this forum- were poo-pooed by the Vet. So I saw a different Vet on a friend's recommendation. Way different experience. He listened to all the ideas, gave feedback on which were worth trying. Didn't laugh at my charts and calendar of symptoms. End results 9 months later allergies are under control, dog can be a dog again. Balance at home restored. Great relationship with new Vet.
> 
> The only think you risk in a 2nd opinion is paying another consulting fee. My guess is at this point, Loki's has already racked up quite a bill so another $100~ or so to do a consult and testing, but gain peace of mind on treatment and direction is money well spent.
> 
> Positive thoughts and healing wishes!


Thank you so much for your support.

Do you have any pictures of your boys scar? And if you had to guess how long did it take all the hair to grow back completely?


----------



## woogyboogy

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Sulfur is a deterent to ticks. When I was in college I had a summer job with a topographic engineering company. We would go out and stake oil wells. We put sulfer in a sock and dusting around our waist, ankles, and neck to keep ticks off.
> 
> I put sulfur pellets around my fence line to keep the rat snakes from crossing (horse ranch behind me).
> 
> Just a thought.


Interesting, I will definitely research more into Sulfur. 

Thanks for the info!


----------



## sparra

Good decision......you need that diagnosis or you will just go in circles and drive yourself nuts.
It is so simple to get a blood test......then you will know exactly what you are dealing with......no second guessing yourself.......GOOD LUCK


----------



## woogyboogy

sparra said:


> Good decision......you need that diagnosis or you will just go in circles and drive yourself nuts.
> It is so simple to get a blood test......then you will know exactly what you are dealing with......no second guessing yourself.......GOOD LUCK


Thanks for the reassurance Sparra, The more and more we thought about it, the more baffled we were about our previous Vet refusing to do a blood test.


----------



## Oliver'smom

*Pictures*

I'm not great at getting pictures to attach to posts on this forum, but here goes. it took nearly a full year for his coat to look normal again. It didn't help that Jack's undercoat was both white and black, so he had a skunk stripe spot for a while. Also he was 9 yrs. old at the time and starting to grey a bit. Jack was a shepherd/husky mix. Loki's coat may look different because he is a sable and full GSD. You'll be able to tell which photo is the first day post-op, then there is one that is about a month of downy undercoat, and then the one with him on the dog bed is about 4 months post-op. The last photo where he is looking over his shoulder is 8 months post-op. It is hard to tell in the photo, but at the 8 month point he had about 50% of his longer top coat hairs poking through the downy fuzz, but there weren't enough to cover the white undercoat yet. After the month mark, we could kind of stop worrying about the scar, sunburn and him being interested in it. We had to work on physical therapy for his back legs, but the actual scar didn't seem to really bug him at all. A scar like that does usually generate lots of questions and comments as it heals. As you are out and about, you'll get comments and inquires so be ready for that. Usually it earned Jack some love from dog people.


----------



## woogyboogy

Oliver'smom said:


> I'm not great at getting pictures to attach to posts on this forum, but here goes. it took nearly a full year for his coat to look normal again. It didn't help that Jack's undercoat was both white and black, so he had a skunk stripe spot for a while. Also he was 9 yrs. old at the time and starting to grey a bit. Jack was a shepherd/husky mix. Loki's coat may look different because he is a sable and full GSD. You'll be able to tell which photo is the first day post-op, then there is one that is about a month of downy undercoat, and then the one with him on the dog bed is about 4 months post-op. The last photo where he is looking over his shoulder is 8 months post-op. It is hard to tell in the photo, but at the 8 month point he had about 50% of his longer top coat hairs poking through the downy fuzz, but there weren't enough to cover the white undercoat yet. After the month mark, we could kind of stop worrying about the scar, sunburn and him being interested in it. We had to work on physical therapy for his back legs, but the actual scar didn't seem to really bug him at all. A scar like that does usually generate lots of questions and comments as it heals. As you are out and about, you'll get comments and inquires so be ready for that. Usually it earned Jack some love from dog people.


Thank you so much for that, and he is so beautiful! 

We are definitely prepared for the questions from other people, but not looking forward to it haha.

And we are thinking that the hair will take atleast 6 months for it get back to normal, which is fine, whatever it takes we will do.


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## woogyboogy

I will let everyone know how tomorrow goes!


----------



## Jax08

get copies of everything from your regular vet. has that culture come back yet from him?


----------



## GSDLoverII

Have been following your story. Sending positive thoughts and prayers. We have a puppy about the same age as yours and live in south Florida, so we can definitely relate. Good Luck today!


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> get copies of everything from your regular vet. has that culture come back yet from him?


We are getting copies, but the current Vet has faxed all of our records to the new Vet.

The Culture, or the Histopathology? The culture came back negative, the histopathology hasn't came back yet.


----------



## woogyboogy

GSDLoverII said:


> Have been following your story. Sending positive thoughts and prayers. We have a puppy about the same age as yours and live in south Florida, so we can definitely relate. Good Luck today!


Thanks for the support, we appreciate is so much!


----------



## hev1128

I've been following this thread- and getting confused in the process. 

I have little to add but some small ideas.

1- flea/tick- get an exterminator to spray your yard. we did ours and it's made a huge difference. We do a topical flea/tick for Ginger for when we aren't home but a yard spray makes me feel better about being at our house. And heck, it protects us humans too.
2- Definitely support the 2nd opinion- it took 2 vet appointments and then a trip to our trainer to recommend a third vet. And the third vet found the torn ACLs. Sometimes, its just for peace of mind.
3- don't be afraid to research. my husband yells at me for doing alot of research on things...but I'd rather know all the possibilities so I can handle whatever the bottom line is. nothing wrong with that. I see the vets point, but you are the owner. It's your job to advocate for your pet. Cause Loki can't talk for himself.

You are an awesome pet owner. Loki is lucky. And BEAUTIFUL.
Will keep watching for updates.


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## katieliz

hev1128...#1 i think might be a big NO for anyone with an animal (or person) on the property who has serious medical issues.


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## Courtney

katieliz said:


> hev1128...#1 i think might be a big NO for anyone with an animal (or person) on the property who has serious medical issues.


I have to agree


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## woogyboogy

Ok everyone here is the update for today.

We just got back from the Vet, turns out, one of the Vets at this new office has actually seen several cases of Pythiosis, and already has an established professional relationship with Bob Glass, through her previous cases.

We got the blood sample done today (ELISA test), and it is being sent out today.

The Vet was very willing to work with us, she knows that it is very serious, and that timing is the most important factor with this infection. She is definitely on top of the ball.

The Vet contacted Bob Glass this morning to let him know that she was now involved with Loki, and that a blood sample would be on the way to his lab very soon.

Also, I literally just got off the phone with Bob Glass, he is the most amazing, helpful person I've ever talked to in my life. He said that we will know the results on Friday or Saturday.

Thanks everyone!!!


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## Jax08

Awesome! Sounds like you are in the right place! Have you heard back from your original vet regarding the histology?

What did she think about changes of continued infection?


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## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Awesome! Sounds like you are in the right place! Have you heard back from your original vet regarding the histology?
> 
> What did she think about changes of continued infection?


Yeah, definitely a little more relieved, I feel like we are in the right hands now for sure. Still no results back from the Histology...should be any day now though.

Also, she was very suspicious of it being Pythiosis, but she wasn't making any assumptions until we get the results back for the blood test.


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## katieliz

(((((((((( <3 ))))))))))...yay! YAY!!!

GOOD JOB!


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## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> (((((((((( <3 ))))))))))...yay! YAY!!!
> 
> GOOD JOB!


Thank you, now we wait til Friday or Saturday, I might die of anticipation.:crazy:


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## LisaT

*This is absolutely outstanding. * Great job finding this vet. How did you locate her?


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## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> *This is absolutely outstanding. * Great job finding this vet. How did you locate her?


Honestly we just got lucky...maybe it was meant to be.


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## hev1128

Re: our flea/tick treatment. We asked lots of questions regarding the safety. In fact, we have well water so we are very concerned about chemicals. Our exterminator gave us literature and info. It's just an option to consider.


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## JakodaCD OA

wonderful news!!!


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## carmspack

you said "she was very suspicious of it being Pythiosis,"

do you mean she was sceptical , doubting that is was pythiosis ? That would be a good thing , right?


----------



## woogyboogy

This may be a very depressing post to some, be warned.

Just so everyone knows...there is a very big catch with this entire scenario, and I know I briefly mentioned it earlier in this thread.

When the blood results come back, it will either be Pythiosis, or Lagenidium we are 99.9% sure. 

Pythiosis actually has a vaccine and has been studied a lot more than Lagenidium. Lagenidium has NO vaccine. If it comes back positive for Lagenidium, then that is basically the end of the road.

I talked to Robert Glass, the owner of Pav Labs, which is the company who makes the Vaccine for Pythiosis, and he told me that if it comes back positive for Lagenidium, the only thing we can do is pray. He said there is nothing we can do for Lagenidium to try and cure it.

The Vaccine for Pythiosis is essentially useless for Lagenidium. So we are just praying, and hoping that if anything, it comes back positive for Pythiosis, which is something horrible to pray for, but better than the alternative.

Thank you so much for the support everyone! All three of us appreciate it way more than you know! We are all trying to stay as positive as possible.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> you said "she was very suspicious of it being Pythiosis,"
> 
> do you mean she was sceptical , doubting that is was pythiosis ? That would be a good thing , right?


No, very suspicious as in she believes that it is Pythiosis, from what she has seen in her past cases with it.


----------



## LisaT

It does sound like you were meant to find the vet....

I understand your depressing post, there are no real good alternatives, and diagnosis may be just the start of the battle. But we can hope that the surgical resection was complete, and support with alternative methods, and, then hope, I guess.

I guess this Lagenidium is used in pesticides to kill mosquitos? Might they be spreading this thing? If so, this would be terrible news


----------



## LisaT

Did Glass mention zygomycosis, which might also be confused with pythiosis?
http://www.findretrievers.com/news/wordpress/2010/11/23/new-developments-in-phycomycosis/


----------



## llombardo

LisaT said:


> It does sound like you were meant to find the vet....
> 
> I understand your depressing post, there are no real good alternatives, and diagnosis may be just the start of the battle. But we can hope that the surgical resection was complete, and support with alternative methods, and, then hope, I guess.
> 
> I guess this Lagenidium is used in pesticides to kill mosquitos? Might they be spreading this thing? If so, this would be terrible news


So what I'm getting is this lagenidium is actually bred and used as spray to kill Mosquitos but Mosquitos and gnats are its primary hosts?


----------



## LisaT

That's kinda what I read too, though I just skimmed it, so wasn't sure. Don't know if it's the same "strain" (might not be the right word) that is infectious to dogs (and presumably humans).


----------



## llombardo

LisaT said:


> That's kinda what I read too, though I just skimmed it, so wasn't sure. Don't know if it's the same "strain" (might not be the right word) that is infectious to dogs (and presumably humans).


Interesting. On the bio fact sheet it says that it's not harmful to humans or mammals, just susceptible mosquito larvae. http://www.biotechawareness.com/images/Apr.01LagenidiumBELONGStoCAstate.pdf


----------



## LisaT

llombardo said:


> Interesting. On the bio fact sheet it says that it's not harmful to humans or mammals, just susceptible mosquito larvae. http://www.biotechawareness.com/images/Apr.01LagenidiumBELONGStoCAstate.pdf


Might be a different strain then. Hopefully!


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Interesting. On the bio fact sheet it says that it's not harmful to humans or mammals, just susceptible mosquito larvae. http://www.biotechawareness.com/images/Apr.01LagenidiumBELONGStoCAstate.pdf


What you posted here is Lagenidium giganteum, the Lagenidium we are concerned about I BELIEVE is Lagenidium spp.

Not entirely sure if they differ in any way, as I haven't done much research on Lagenidium, due to so much time spent on researching Pythiosis.


----------



## woogyboogy

Here is a quick description of Lagenidium spp;

*a microscopic spore-producing oomycotic (yeast-like) fungus which inhabits aquatic regions and is normally parasitic on insects.
Dogs are thought to become infected from ingesting or inhaling spores while foraging, through skin wounds or when eating small amphibians and reptiles.*

Here is the link; Lagenidium spp - Dog


----------



## woogyboogy

This is probably a better article to understand that there are different "species" of Lagenidiosis.

Here are some links with good information, 

Lagenidiosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

//Lagenidiosis - Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine: Expert Consult

Canine Lagenidiosis


----------



## woogyboogy

I emailed Robert Glass about Lagenidium, this was my question;
*Is Lagenidium spp, and Lagenidium giganteum the same thing? I've found several articles about Lagenidium, but some say "spp" and some say "giganteum"*

And this was his response;
*"They're strains of the same organism. We have identified 4 strains that are pathogenic. Some are slow growing, and at least one is a fast growing very pathogenic strain."*


----------



## Linda1270

I have just finished reading this entire post; I have no information to offer but would like to let you know that I am praying that you will get a good outcome on the blood results. You all have been through so much dealing with this, I can't even imagine the amount of stress it has to be causing you and your family. 

Sending lots of healing vibes and prayers your boys way. Hang in there, you have done such an amazing job!


----------



## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> I have just finished reading this entire post; I have no information to offer but would like to let you know that I am praying that you will get a good outcome on the blood results. You all have been through so much dealing with this, I can't even imagine the amount of stress it has to be causing you and your family.
> 
> Sending lots of healing vibes and prayers your boys way. Hang in there, you have done such an amazing job!


Thanks for the support...it has definitely been a rocky road.


----------



## LisaT

I think the abbreviation spp. is to denote a generic member of the species, not identified which one. Can't remember if that is plural or singular.

I guess we are hoping for a positive on the blood test then, so that there is a therapy to try. I'm really so very sorry that you guys are going through all of this, and I sure am hoping that he's going to be one of those dogs that beats all odds. With the amount of support and good thoughts zooming to him on the forum, that is bound to help....


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I think the abbreviation spp. is to denote a generic member of the species, not identified which one. Can't remember if that is plural or singular.
> 
> I guess we are hoping for a positive on the blood test then, so that there is a therapy to try. I'm really so very sorry that you guys are going through all of this, and I sure am hoping that he's going to be one of those dogs that beats all odds. With the amount of support and good thoughts zooming to him on the forum, that is bound to help....


Yeah....best case scenario, is the blood test comes back negative, meaning the surgery had removed all traces of Pythiosis (Although from research, that is highly unlikely). Second "best" scenario would be to test positive for Pythiosis so that we can treat it with the Vaccine, and the worst case scenario would be to test positive for Lagenidium.

Thanks for the support Lisa, you have been such an amazing help throughout all of this!


----------



## LisaT

I'm happy to help - you're doing a great job processing all this information and putting a plan in action.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I'm happy to help - you're doing a great job processing all this information and putting a plan in action.


Thanks! I will keep everyone updated...I still can't believe this thread has over 22,000 views and is 53 pages. 

We are so grateful for everyone on this forum, without all of you there's no way we would have gotten this far!


----------



## carmspack

If at any point you need a herb , or an oil , or anything else that can support the positive direction of your dear dog's health you just let me know.
No matter how exotic I have a network that can find it .
If I have it on hand already , all the better , it has your name on it.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> If at any point you need a herb , or an oil , or anything else that can support the positive direction of your dear dog's health you just let me know.
> No matter how exotic I have a network that can find it .
> If I have it on hand already , all the better , it has your name on it.


Thank you so much carmspack, I appreciate it. If I need anything herbal/holistic related, I will definitely let you know!


----------



## DJMac

I been following your thread but I have not commented because I have no knowledge on this topic. I am learning about it with you. However, it is good to know that you are actually getting this situation handled. Good luck on the road to recovery.


----------



## Courtney

Out of curiosity- if this is indeed related to the pond he swam in how long after that swim did you see the sore on his back? Did it start small and get big?

Crap that can be in water My healthy little brother spent several weeks in the hospital two summers ago with dr's in and out trying to figure out what was wrong with him. Infectious disease dr's were called in and they believe he had legionnaires disease from the water mist coolers at the zoo. They picked apart what he did the week before. The CDC was also called. That water went up his nose and into his lungs and wreaked havoc from there. He's fine now but had a long recovery. Not related to dogs but darn water can carry some nasty stuff


----------



## woogyboogy

DJMac said:


> I been following your thread but I have not commented because I have no knowledge on this topic. I am learning about it with you. However, it is good to know that you are actually getting this situation handled. Good luck on the road to recovery.


Thank you, we appreciate the support!


----------



## woogyboogy

Courtney said:


> Out of curiosity- if this is indeed related to the pond he swam in how long after that swim did you see the sore on his back? Did it start small and get big?
> 
> Crap that can be in water My healthy little brother spent several weeks in the hospital two summers ago with dr's in and out trying to figure out what was wrong with him. Infectious disease dr's were called in and they believe he had legionnaires disease from the water mist coolers at the zoo. They picked apart what he did the week before. The CDC was also called. That water went up his nose and into his lungs and wreaked havoc from there. He's fine now but had a long recovery. Not related to dogs but darn water can carry some nasty stuff


We noticed it approximately 3-5 days after he had been in the pond. It started out as what seemed to be a mosquito bite.

Also, we are 99.9% positive it came from my friends pond, after researching Pythiosis, the organism is formed from Lily Pads. My friends pond is LOADED with lily pads. It's just an assumption, but a very good one.

Also, sorry about your brother, but I'm glad he has made a full recovery!


----------



## woogyboogy

Still no word on our previous Vet on the results for the Histopath report, hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> We noticed it approximately 3-5 days after he had been in the pond. It started out as what seemed to be a mosquito bite.
> 
> Also, we are 99.9% positive it came from my friends pond, after researching Pythiosis, the organism is formed from Lily Pads. My friends pond is LOADED with lily pads. It's just an assumption, but a very good one.
> 
> Also, sorry about your brother, but I'm glad he has made a full recovery!


No other dogs affected? I wonder why it affects certain dogs and not others.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> No other dogs affected? I wonder why it affects certain dogs and not others.


There was 4 other dogs in the pond swimming at the same time, ranging from 2 to 6 years old, none of them had any issues whatsoever. We were the "lucky" ones.

It is all about the immune system, Dogs with weak immune systems are more susceptible to getting Pythiosis, and in our case, he was only 4 1/2 months old so his immune system was/is still trying to strengthen, so it wasn't able to fight off the infection when it all started.


----------



## LisaT

There might also be a factor of just plain old bad luck involved here too


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> There might also be a factor of just plain old bad luck involved here too


Yeah definitely...and the fact that he is our first dog, makes it 10x more stressful.:crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

Took some pictures of Loki today, here's my favorite.










Also, here's the thread with the other pictures I posted;

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-pictures-loki-6-months-old.html#post5787154


----------



## Linda1270

Is today the day you're supposed to get the results? I have been watching and hoping that a good outcome will come out of this. My girl Tess will be 2 next month and goes out on adventures to conservation lands and swims all the time. After reading about this disease and seeing the pain you are going through, I am thinking about pulling the plug on her swimming days.

Does your boy have any other symptoms at all? Is he eating good, playing and sleeping well?

Thinking of you and your boy today and sending truck loads of positive vibes his way.


----------



## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> Is today the day you're supposed to get the results? I have been watching and hoping that a good outcome will come out of this. My girl Tess will be 2 next month and goes out on adventures to conservation lands and swims all the time. After reading about this disease and seeing the pain you are going through, I am thinking about pulling the plug on her swimming days.
> 
> Does your boy have any other symptoms at all? Is he eating good, playing and sleeping well?
> 
> Thinking of you and your boy today and sending truck loads of positive vibes his way.


Thank you so much for the support. We will know the results by either tonight, or tomorrow, and I agree, we are going to be so paranoid about anything we do with Loki now.

Also, as far as symptoms go, there really aren't any. He sleeps 8 hours, eats like a horse, goes to the bathroom normal, has energy, and looks healthy.

Thanks again, and I will keep everyone updated. Still no word on our previous vet on the Histopathology report.


----------



## Lilie

How is he healing from his surgery?


----------



## llombardo

Linda1270 said:


> Is today the day you're supposed to get the results? I have been watching and hoping that a good outcome will come out of this. My girl Tess will be 2 next month and goes out on adventures to conservation lands and swims all the time. After reading about this disease and seeing the pain you are going through, I am thinking about pulling the plug on her swimming days.
> Does your boy have any other symptoms at all? Is he eating good, playing and sleeping well?
> 
> Thinking of you and your boy today and sending truck loads of positive vibes his way.


I feel the same way. My golden got a rash on his neck and I was at the vet before they opened. I'm now completely paranoid about this


----------



## woogyboogy

Lilie said:


> How is he healing from his surgery?


His main incision is healing very nicely, the new hair growth is amazing, I can't believe how quickly the hair is coming back. His umbilical hernia incision is healing very nicely as well. BUT his two rear dew claws are definitely becoming an issue. They are stitched from the inside, so they won't actual open up, but at least once a day, they will ooze blood, but they do not look infected. They are just taking ALOT longer to heal.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> I feel the same way. My golden got a rash on his neck and I was at the vet before they opened. I'm now completely paranoid about this


Yeah we are extremely paranoid about all of this, he is our first dog, so now we feel as though we have to watch his EVERY move and check him constantly.


----------



## wyoung2153

Wooow.. ok that was a much needed read. I have been seeing this thread for some time and with the number of posts growing I knew if I started to read I wouldn't stop til the end. So today I finally had time to read EVERYTHING. First, I am extremely impressed with how proactive you have been through this whole thing and how you are handling it, I only hope that if I get into a situation with Titan I can respond like you have here. 

I have no knowledge on the main health concern at all.. but it sounds like you are in the right hands now..

I do have a comment on the flea and tick.. as I live in FL as well. We use both Sentinel and Nexguard. Sentinal for the heartworm and flea, and nexguard is for flea and ticks. Yes we use both.. while I know trusting your vet is taboo here, I have a really really awesome one and she completely agrees with the use of both. I have also done some research on my own. We've used it now for about 6 months and have had absolutely no issues on it. 

I am crossing my fingers for you about this whole thing and definitely sending some prayers your way.. :hugs:


----------



## woogyboogy

wyoung2153 said:


> Wooow.. ok that was a much needed read. I have been seeing this thread for some time and with the number of posts growing I knew if I started to read I wouldn't stop til the end. So today I finally had time to read EVERYTHING. First, I am extremely impressed with how proactive you have been through this whole thing and how you are handling it, I only hope that if I get into a situation with Titan I can respond like you have here.
> 
> I have no knowledge on the main health concern at all.. but it sounds like you are in the right hands now..
> 
> I do have a comment on the flea and tick.. as I live in FL as well. We use both Sentinel and Nexguard. Sentinal for the heartworm and flea, and nexguard is for flea and ticks. Yes we use both.. while I know trusting your vet is taboo here, I have a really really awesome one and she completely agrees with the use of both. I have also done some research on my own. We've used it now for about 6 months and have had absolutely no issues on it.
> 
> I am crossing my fingers for you about this whole thing and definitely sending some prayers your way.. :hugs:


I don't even want to guess how long it took you to read through 55 pages!!! Thank you so much for your concern and support, we definitely appreciate it!

Also, thank you for mentioning the Sentinel, and Nexgard, once everything is resolved we are going to start seriously considering our options, but for the time being "we have bigger fish to fry", but he still remains on HW meds.

Just a quick question for you, do you use Sentinel Spectrum, or just Sentinel?

Thanks again!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Hoping for the best for your boy! 



woogyboogy said:


> I don't even want to guess how long it took you to read through 55 pages!!! Thank you so much for your concern and support, we definitely appreciate it!


BTW, if you've got a fast internet connection and don't want to keep clicking from page to page to page on longer threads you can reset the number of posts per page from your control panel (User CP). I have it set to 100, so there are only 6 pages to this thread. I believe the maximum is 300.


----------



## woogyboogy

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Hoping for the best for your boy!
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, if you've got a fast internet connection and don't want to keep clicking from page to page to page on longer threads you can reset the number of posts per page from your control panel (User CP). I have it set to 100, so there are only 6 pages to this thread. I believe the maximum is 300.


Thanks for the support, and good suggestion on the pages numbers, I didn't know you could do that!


----------



## wyoung2153

Cassidy's mom-I had no idea you could do that! It probably is so much easier too.. lol lessons learned!



woogyboogy said:


> I don't even want to guess how long it took you to read through 55 pages!!! Thank you so much for your concern and support, we definitely appreciate it!
> 
> Also, thank you for mentioning the Sentinel, and Nexgard, once everything is resolved we are going to start seriously considering our options, but for the time being "we have bigger fish to fry", but he still remains on HW meds.
> 
> Just a quick question for you, do you use Sentinel Spectrum, or just Sentinel?
> 
> Thanks again!


I'm going to say just Sentinel, but I will give you a definite response when I can look at the box at home.


----------



## Lilie

woogyboogy said:


> His main incision is healing very nicely, the new hair growth is amazing, I can't believe how quickly the hair is coming back. His umbilical hernia incision is healing very nicely as well. BUT his two rear dew claws are definitely becoming an issue. They are stitched from the inside, so they won't actual open up, but at least once a day, they will ooze blood, but they do not look infected. They are just taking ALOT longer to heal.


Strange. I would have thought those would be the quickest to heal! Many prayers to him! He's lucky he is so well loved!


----------



## woogyboogy

wyoung2153 said:


> Cassidy's mom-I had no idea you could do that! It probably is so much easier too.. lol lessons learned!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say just Sentinel, but I will give you a definite response when I can look at the box at home.


Ok thanks just let me know!


----------



## woogyboogy

Lilie said:


> Strange. I would have thought those would be the quickest to heal! Many prayers to him! He's lucky he is so well loved!


Yeah, I think its because when he walks around, they have constant pressure on them? Not sure but I wish they would heal!


----------



## trcy

woogyboogy said:


> His main incision is healing very nicely, the new hair growth is amazing, I can't believe how quickly the hair is coming back. His umbilical hernia incision is healing very nicely as well. BUT his two rear dew claws are definitely becoming an issue. They are stitched from the inside, so they won't actual open up, but at least once a day, they will ooze blood, but they do not look infected. They are just taking ALOT longer to heal.


My dog is having the same reaction to the inside stitches. He was neutered, but he had a retained testicle so he has incisions up the right side of his penis also. It was very scary when he started oozing the clearish bloody stuff. At one point it was dripping on the floor. 

I'll make a long story shorter...lol. I ended up taking him to an evet, and then back to the original vet. The original vet said sometimes they react to the inside stitches. He was defiantly having a reaction. The evet felt the stitches were looses, so they had put 4 staples in and gave me antibiotics. The regular vet said to continue giving the antibiotics and apply warm compresses if he will tolerate it. 

It is getting better now. At one point it swelled up terribly. It was after the staples had been put in. It ended up bursting or all of it came out during the night. I took him to the regular vet that morning. It was all very concerning for me. I was up most of the night checking on him when it was all swelled up.


----------



## woogyboogy

trcy said:


> My dog is having the same reaction to the inside stitches. He was neutered, but he had a retained testicle so he has incisions up the right side of his penis also. It was very scary when he started oozing the clearish bloody stuff. At one point it was dripping on the floor.
> 
> I'll make a long story shorter...lol. I ended up taking him to an evet, and then back to the original vet. The original vet said sometimes they react to the inside stitches. He was defiantly having a reaction. The evet felt the stitches were looses, so they had put 4 staples in and gave me antibiotics. The regular vet said to continue giving the antibiotics and apply warm compresses if he will tolerate it.
> 
> It is getting better now. At one point it swelled up terribly. It was after the staples had been put in. It ended up bursting or all of it came out during the night. I took him to the regular vet that morning. It was all very concerning for me. I was up most of the night checking on him when it was all swelled up.


Yeah we are definitely keep a close eye on it. It is definitely closing up, just healing very slowly unfortunately.


----------



## woogyboogy

I got a chance to talk to Robert Glass today, he said they didn't get the blood results in til today, so the results will either be ready Tomorrow, Monday, or Tuesday...the anticipation is killing us!!!:crazy:


----------



## Courtney

Rusty has his paws crossed for Loki. I do not know you but keep thinking about your boy. *good healing vibes*


----------



## woogyboogy

Courtney said:


> Rusty has his paws crossed for Loki. I do not know you but keep thinking about your boy. *good healing vibes*


Thank you so much Courtney!


----------



## LisaT

I was hoping to come here tonight have some news - so sorry you guys are still waiting, on both results!!

It's a really scary world out there, with lots of scary pathogenic things. I guess a river in FL just tested positive for flesh eating bacteria? 
St. Johns River tests positive for flesh-eating bacteria | www.actionnewsjax.com

I guess you haven't heard from the test from your old vet either. Will continue to hold good thoughts for you guys!

Oh, btw, Max had a front dew claw removed. It is an amputation, and can take awhile to heal, but I'm glad that he's doing better.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I was hoping to come here tonight have some news - so sorry you guys are still waiting, on both results!!
> 
> It's a really scary world out there, with lots of scary pathogenic things. I guess a river in FL just tested positive for flesh eating bacteria?
> St. Johns River tests positive for flesh-eating bacteria | www.actionnewsjax.com
> 
> I guess you haven't heard from the test from your old vet either. Will continue to hold good thoughts for you guys!
> 
> Oh, btw, Max had a front dew claw removed. It is an amputation, and can take awhile to heal, but I'm glad that he's doing better.


Yeah we were really hoping for test results by now, but unfortunately we will have to wait a little longer.

And still no word from our previous vet about the Histopathology, other than us finding out it was $200.00

That's very scary about the Flesh Eating Bacteria though...I will keep everyone updated!


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> I got a chance to talk to Robert Glass today, he said they didn't get the blood results in til today, so the results will either be ready Tomorrow, Monday, or Tuesday...the anticipation is killing us!!!:crazy:


OMG. :headbang:

This is crazy! 

How is he doing?


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> And still no word from our previous vet about the Histopathology, other than us finding out it was $200.00


Call them. If they dont' have answers, demand the phone number for the lab and have your new vet call there.


----------



## wyoung2153

Seriously.. you shouldn't still be waiting on the histo results! I would be peeved. But still crossing fingers, toes, and anything else I can cross! Prayers too  always prayers... 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> OMG. :headbang:
> 
> This is crazy!
> 
> How is he doing?


Yeah crazy to say the least.

He is doing good, no change in anything really. He is off the Tramadol now, so he definitely seems more spunky.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Call them. If they dont' have answers, demand the phone number for the lab and have your new vet call there.


I talked to them like 15 minutes ago, they said that it wasn't sent out until Monday (7/14), and it usually takes 7-10 days for a Histpath to come back. aranoid:


----------



## woogyboogy

wyoung2153 said:


> Seriously.. you shouldn't still be waiting on the histo results! I would be peeved. But still crossing fingers, toes, and anything else I can cross! Prayers too  always prayers...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah we are definitely frustrated and glad we went to a different Vet when we did. Thanks for the support!


----------



## llombardo

I can't believe no test results are back yet Today is my birthday and my birthday wish is that your pup will be healthy and live many happy years with his devoted owners.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> I can't believe no test results are back yet Today is my birthday and my birthday wish is that your pup will be healthy and live many happy years with his devoted owners.


Happy Birthday!

Thanks for the support, I will let everyone know when the results get in...its very aggravating.


----------



## Allie512

Read through this thread. So sorry for what you and Loki are going through. IMHO, I would try to get into see someone at UF Gainesville. They are excellent. As to MRSA - I have had this occur two times with Allie when we lived in Florida and it was treatable with an antibiotic that can only be used for dogs in the United States - Chloramphenicol; however apparently it Loki does not have, MRSA, I would try and and get Loki to Gainesville asap. You have my best wishes for a resolution to this.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> I talked to them like 15 minutes ago, they said that it wasn't sent out until Monday (7/14), and it usually takes 7-10 days for a Histpath to come back. aranoid:


So in a 'time is of the essence' medical case, they held off sending the sample out? Does this vet OWN the place?


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> So in a 'time is of the essence' medical case, they held off sending the sample out? Does this vet OWN the place?


This is the previous Vet who we are no longer seeing, and no he doesn't own the office, he is just a Vet there...This is a perfect example as to why we are glad we switched Vets.


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> This is the previous Vet who we are no longer seeing, and no he doesn't own the office, he is just a Vet there...This is a perfect example as to why we are glad we switched Vets.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


>


I know, I know...you called it!


----------



## Allie512

Did the vet ever say why he choose to do elective surgery on teeth and dew claws at such a critical time. Again, I would right now be on the telephone to Gainesville UF and try to get Loki in there. If you need a contact at Gainesville, pm me and I will give you a name.


----------



## woogyboogy

Allie512 said:


> Did the vet ever say why he choose to do elective surgery on teeth and dew claws at such a critical time. Again, I would right now be on the telephone to Gainesville UF and try to get Loki in there. If you need a contact at Gainesville, pm me and I will give you a name.


They did the teeth and dew claws because he was going to be under so we figured it would be better to do everything then, I don't see any issues with it either.

Also, I've already contacted UF, they are over 3 1/2 hours away and can't see him immediately, So I didn't make any effort to get him in there.

The new vet we are going to seems very competent in what is going on and with her past experiences with Pythiosis we feel very confident.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> This is the previous Vet who we are no longer seeing, and no he doesn't own the office, he is just a Vet there...This is a perfect example as to why we are glad we switched Vets.


I'm aware it's the old vet. Given the continued lackadaisical attitude of this vet, I would call the owner and complain.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> I'm aware it's the old vet. Given the continued lackadaisical attitude of this vet, I would call the owner and complain.


I completely agree, we will probably wait to call once we get the results back.

He is one of those people that is a very nice in person, but his lack of concern, and care is rather disturbing.


----------



## LisaT

Jax08 said:


> Given the continued lackadaisical attitude of this vet, I would call the owner and complain.


I agree. 

For some reason I had assumed that the old vet was the owner of his own practice. Great question Jax.


----------



## Allie512

Apologize if I sounded harsh and coming so late to this thread; was just concerned because I have gone thru something similar with another illness and lost a lot of faith and patience with vets thru that experience. You do sound like you have a good vet now and Loki will get what is necessary.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> I completely agree, we will probably wait to call once we get the results back.
> 
> He is one of those people that is a very nice in person, but his lack of concern, and care is rather disturbing.


What gets me is that he said he's seen and treated pythiosis before, which strikes me that he should know better. I've never understood this type of vet - some are just not very proactive, as if they have no clue about the dire consequences their inaction can have :angryfire:


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I agree.
> 
> For some reason I had assumed that the old vet was the owner of his own practice. Great question Jax.


Yeah there are 2 other Vets that own the place, He just works there but we had heard so many good things about the one we were seeing, which is ironic.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> What gets me is that he said he's seen and treated pythiosis before, which strikes me that he should know better. I've never understood this type of vet - some are just not very proactive, as if they have no clue about the dire consequences their inaction can have :angryfire:


After having time to process what he said to us, I believe he has never seen Pythiosis before, because when he called me to tell me he ASSUMES it is Pythiosis, he said he had time to stay home and research it online and look at books. Meaning he didn't know what it was so he had to research it. This is the main reason why we switched.


----------



## LisaT

Was I wrong that after that, he told you that he's treated it before?


----------



## Jax08

ok...the 14th makes sense for the send out.

You got the probable diagnosis on teh 11th (aren't you glad we pushed you to get a definitive diagnosis!). That was a Friday. And you didn't see the vet till Saturday. There are most likely no couriers, and nobody in the lab, for them to sent the test out till the 14th, which was a Monday.

I don't see that as out of line so I take it back on calling and complaining.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Was I wrong that after that, he told you that he's treated it before?


No you aren't wrong.

He did tell us that he had seen it before and treated it. BUT we believe that to be a lie. Mainly because he told me a day before that he had to research it to understand it better...


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> ok...the 14th makes sense for the send out.
> 
> You got the probable diagnosis on teh 11th (aren't you glad we pushed you to get a definitive diagnosis!). That was a Friday. And you didn't see the vet till Saturday. There are most likely no couriers, and nobody in the lab, for them to sent the test out till the 14th, which was a Monday.
> 
> I don't see that as out of line so I take it back on calling and complaining.


Yeah its only been 5 business days since it has been sent out, it just feels longer because of the weekends I guess


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> No you aren't wrong.
> 
> He did tell us that he had seen it before and treated it. BUT we believe that to be a lie. Mainly because he told me a day before that he had to research it to understand it better...


Okay, that's what I thought. And I agree that he was saying that to CYA. So, I'm not sure I would say that he is not caring, but I do think he was in over his head, and may be okay for very generic things. But we definitely want a vet that will show up when things go further than that!


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Okay, that's what I thought. And I agree that he was saying that to CYA. So, I'm not sure I would say that he is not caring, but I do think he was in over his head, and may be okay for very generic things. But we definitely want a vet that will show up when things go further than that!


I agree with you 100%. He was very inexperienced with Pythiosis, HOWEVER he made it seem like he wasn't, which really steered us from going back to him ever again.

But you are right, he seemed to be very good with generic things, but when it comes down to urgent matters that aren't very common, it might be in our best interest to seek a specialist like we did in this case.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> .....
> But you are right, he seemed to be very good with generic things, but when it comes down to urgent matters that aren't very common, it might be in our best interest to seek a specialist like we did in this case.


I wouldn't be able to stay with a vet that can only handle basic stuff - it's their job to know the difference  REALLY glad that this vet switched worked out the way it did.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I wouldn't be able to stay with a vet that can only handle basic stuff - it's their job to know the difference  REALLY glad that this vet switched worked out the way it did.


Yeah I agree, it's also hard for us, because this is our first dog, so it's also our first experience with a Vet, so we weren't sure what to expect.

But we are very relieved about this new Vet, we both like her a lot, and she is very proactive with everything going on.


----------



## ozzymama

I have been following your thread, the first thing I thought - dirty water. I live in the Kawartha's - which in Ontario, is the land of million dollar cottages and private lakes. Two weeks ago, I was with my daughter at the hospital, an intermittent fever, never high enough to be treated and a rash that looked like a heat rash - but also, a diaper rash! She has been toilet trained for 2 years, she will be 4 in November, so probably longer, my memory is getting shorter! 6 hours, nothing on any testing, I said to my doctor, can she still swim in my pool, conversation ensued, par-boiled trucked in, tested twice a week, the doctor consented my pool was clean enough for her to swim in and not transmit anything. She said, I have seen so many kids this year with bacterial infections from swimming in lakes and ponds, the water table is so high. My daughter swam in a lake 2 weeks before that, the lake was tested and results posted, but only 2 days before those symptoms, swam in her daycare's pool. Daycare fills from her well and does put chemicals in. I mentioned this to the doctor, had an OMG moment, the doctor said, keep her out of there, if the water is filled from the well, (Filled Monday-Wednesday, kids swam Friday), it was not enough time for the chemicals to work, especially as daycare has the same pump I have, the cleaning, is predominantly in the line of the filter current, it take 48 hours to completely circulate the water. I have "forgot" my daughter's bathing suit for 2 weeks LOL, but I did tell the daycare, my doctor thinks it's your water, which created a, "my place is not dirty," war of words, but my daughter has no fevers and no weird rashes. 
I know I am 2,700kms North of you, but this is what we are dealing with, our winter was brutal, so I can't imagine, the filter southern effect is any better. Also I post this as a PSA, for those in the northern areas, like myself. I am not drinking my well water - even though I test weekly, it is just not worth it. I don't have a problem eating a pound of dirt, I do have an issue with 12lbs of bacteria, without warning.


----------



## woogyboogy

ozzymama said:


> I have been following your thread, the first thing I thought - dirty water. I live in the Kawartha's - which in Ontario, is the land of million dollar cottages and private lakes. Two weeks ago, I was with my daughter at the hospital, an intermittent fever, never high enough to be treated and a rash that looked like a heat rash - but also, a diaper rash! She has been toilet trained for 2 years, she will be 4 in November, so probably longer, my memory is getting shorter! 6 hours, nothing on any testing, I said to my doctor, can she still swim in my pool, conversation ensued, par-boiled trucked in, tested twice a week, the doctor consented my pool was clean enough for her to swim in and not transmit anything. She said, I have seen so many kids this year with bacterial infections from swimming in lakes and ponds, the water table is so high. My daughter swam in a lake 2 weeks before that, the lake was tested and results posted, but only 2 days before those symptoms, swam in her daycare's pool. Daycare fills from her well and does put chemicals in. I mentioned this to the doctor, had an OMG moment, the doctor said, keep her out of there, if the water is filled from the well, (Filled Monday-Wednesday, kids swam Friday), it was not enough time for the chemicals to work, especially as daycare has the same pump I have, the cleaning, is predominantly in the line of the filter current, it take 48 hours to completely circulate the water. I have "forgot" my daughter's bathing suit for 2 weeks LOL, but I did tell the daycare, my doctor thinks it's your water, which created a, "my place is not dirty," war of words, but my daughter has no fevers and no weird rashes.
> I know I am 2,700kms North of you, but this is what we are dealing with, our winter was brutal, so I can't imagine, the filter southern effect is any better. Also I post this as a PSA, for those in the northern areas, like myself. I am not drinking my well water - even though I test weekly, it is just not worth it. I don't have a problem eating a pound of dirt, I do have an issue with 12lbs of bacteria, without warning.


Thanks for the info and story, we definitely believe that it is the water too. Bacteria is a nasty thing!!!


----------



## Sunflowers

woogyboogy said:


> I know, I know...you called it!


No, I was addressing the vet. What I was saying isn't allowed to be posted here.


----------



## sparra

Jax08 said:


> ok...the 14th makes sense for the send out.
> 
> You got the probable diagnosis on teh 11th (aren't you glad we pushed you to get a definitive diagnosis!). That was a Friday. And you didn't see the vet till Saturday. There are most likely no couriers, and nobody in the lab, for them to sent the test out till the 14th, which was a Monday.
> 
> I don't see that as out of line so I take it back on calling and complaining.


Histo takes time.....given it won't give a conclusive diagnosis anyway it wouldn't be something I would put my energies into chasing.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> No, I was addressing the vet. What I was saying isn't allowed to be posted here.


Gotcha...Well we finally took your advice and went to a different Vet lol:hammer:


----------



## woogyboogy

sparra said:


> Histo takes time.....given it won't give a conclusive diagnosis anyway it wouldn't be something I would put my energies into chasing.


Yeah I agree with you, we are more concerned about the Blood Test results than the Histo.


----------



## woogyboogy

Well this morning was very eventful...

We fed him at 7am (1 1/4 cup) like usual, and then gave him his pills (Vitamin C, Echinacea, and Pau D' Arco) in a piece of cheese, BUT as he was trying to eat the cheese, he bit into a capsule, (either Pau D' Arco, or Echinacea), splitting it open resulting in an "explosion" of powder in his mouth, then he swallowed it all...I can't imagine that was a pleasant taste. 

Then about 5-10 minutes later, we went outside, he went to the bathroom (1 & 2) everything was normal, walked around for a little bit, then came back inside. He rested for about 20-30 mins and then threw up his entire breakfast. Just one big heave, not multiple throw ups. 

We aren't sure if it was from the pill situation or what, but we've been keeping a very close eye on him and he seems to be doing fine now. We just fed him 1/2 cup about 20 mins ago and he seems good, no signs of throwing up or anything irregular.

ALSO, we were just doing his normal skin check and noticed 2 small red areas above his right arm, by his shoulder area. They could be just bug bites or something minor, but we are extremely paranoid about anything we find on him now with everything that is going on. We have sprayed Vetericyn on it and we are going to keep a VERY close eye on those as well...

So as you can tell, our Sunday, hasn't been exactly "relaxing".:crazy:


----------



## carmspack

Hi , I was questioning the use of Pau D'Arco in the care of your dog and possible condition.

I know this substance when my brother in law was battling advanced cancer . 

"
Pau d’arco is also used for cancer. Interest in this use was intensified by extensive research in the 1960s that focused on the possible anti-cancer activity of lapachol, one of the chemicals in pau d’arco. However, research studies were stopped because, at the amounts needed to be effective against cancer, pau d’arco might well be poisonous. Among other things, it can cause severe internal bleeding.

Other uses for pau d’arco include diabetes, ulcers, stomach inflammation (gastritis), liver ailments, asthma, bronchitis, joint pain, hernias, boils, and wounds. Because some people see pau d’arco as a “tonic and blood builder,” it is also used to treat anemia."

combined with Echinacea I'm not sure this is a good mix .
Echinacea has some anti biotic activity , but there are other ways .

just my opinion , as I don't know who made the recommendations you are following, but I would discontinue Pau D'Arco. 

Even if you were using it for cancer , there are better things.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> Hi , I was questioning the use of Pau D'Arco in the care of your dog and possible condition.
> 
> I know this substance when my brother in law was battling advanced cancer .
> 
> "
> Pau d’arco is also used for cancer. Interest in this use was intensified by extensive research in the 1960s that focused on the possible anti-cancer activity of lapachol, one of the chemicals in pau d’arco. However, research studies were stopped because, at the amounts needed to be effective against cancer, pau d’arco might well be poisonous. Among other things, it can cause severe internal bleeding.
> 
> Other uses for pau d’arco include diabetes, ulcers, stomach inflammation (gastritis), liver ailments, asthma, bronchitis, joint pain, hernias, boils, and wounds. Because some people see pau d’arco as a “tonic and blood builder,” it is also used to treat anemia."
> 
> combined with Echinacea I'm not sure this is a good mix .
> Echinacea has some anti biotic activity , but there are other ways .
> 
> just my opinion , as I don't know who made the recommendations you are following, but I would discontinue Pau D'Arco.
> 
> Even if you were using it for cancer , there are better things.


Good info, we might discontinue the Pau D' Arco, our new Vet said that is is very helpful with fighting infections, but she said she didn't know to much about it.

I guess we will just stick with Vitamin C, and Echinacea. 

Also, we fed him another 1/2 cup about an hour ago and he seems to be fine. No signs of throwing up and lethargy, I think it might have just been the pill mishap earlier this morning.


----------



## jwmedic

I just quickly read through this thread. So sorry to hear about Loki. I am familiar with Robert Glass. Since I live in Texas, I actually drove my dog, Hunter, to Hutto Texas and personally handed him Hunter's blood sample (he was scheduled to run the test that day so I didn’t want to waste any time). The previous week, vets at Texas A&M had told me that Hunter had cancer, but when the biopsy/histopath report came back they realized he had a fungal infection and claimed it was Pythium. I found the website Pythiosis.com, contacted Tammy Bell (owner of website) and she put me in contact with Robert Glass. At that point I was pretty sure that Hunter had a different but similar fungus - Conidiobolus, so I spoke to Bob and he said his test would shed some light on conidiobolus as well. At the same time I contacted Dr. Grooters at LSU and while I was in Hutto, she contacted my Houston vet and suggested we start treating Hunter using Sporanox (which we are continuing to do and he is doing great). I received Bob’s test results the next day, however, it wasn’t definitive ("The Pythium and Lag are clear negatives. There was a Borderline (slight reaction) on the Conidiobolus test. I'm confident that his problem is not Pythium or Lag but not confident it is Conidibolus"). Later I requested A&M to send Dr. Grooters the tissue slides and she confirmed it was in fact Conidiobolus. Dr. Grooters is a fungal expert in my opinion. Just wanted to share my experience. Most vets are not familiar with Pythium and similar fungi and several of these fungi look alike so it requires a trained eye to make an accurate diagnosis based on histopath slides. The Pythiosis.com website is very informative, so if you haven’t seen it, probably worth checking out. Also here is link to an article by Dr. Grooters regarding Pythium: http://www.rottweilerhealth.org/pdfs/july_pythiosis_grooters_02.pdf
Hope this helps. Please feel free to contact me with any questions. Good luck to you and Loki!


----------



## woogyboogy

jwmedic said:


> I just quickly read through this thread. So sorry to hear about Loki. I am familiar with Robert Glass. Since I live in Texas, I actually drove my dog, Hunter, to Hutto Texas and personally handed him Hunter's blood sample (he was scheduled to run the test that day so I didn’t want to waste any time). The previous week, vets at Texas A&M had told me that Hunter had cancer, but when the biopsy/histopath report came back they realized he had a fungal infection and claimed it was Pythium. I found the website Pythiosis.com, contacted Tammy Bell (owner of website) and she put me in contact with Robert Glass. At that point I was pretty sure that Hunter had a different but similar fungus - Conidiobolus, so I spoke to Bob and he said his test would shed some light on conidiobolus as well. At the same time I contacted Dr. Grooters at LSU and while I was in Hutto, she contacted my Houston vet and suggested we start treating Hunter using Sporanox (which we are continuing to do and he is doing great). I received Bob’s test results the next day, however, it wasn’t definitive ("The Pythium and Lag are clear negatives. There was a Borderline (slight reaction) on the Conidiobolus test. I'm confident that his problem is not Pythium or Lag but not confident it is Conidibolus"). Later I requested A&M to send Dr. Grooters the tissue slides and she confirmed it was in fact Conidiobolus. Dr. Grooters is a fungal expert in my opinion. Just wanted to share my experience. Most vets are not familiar with Pythium and similar fungi and several of these fungi look alike so it requires a trained eye to make an accurate diagnosis based on histopath slides. The Pythiosis.com website is very informative, so if you haven’t seen it, probably worth checking out. Also here is link to an article by Dr. Grooters regarding Pythium: http://www.rottweilerhealth.org/pdfs/july_pythiosis_grooters_02.pdf
> Hope this helps. Please feel free to contact me with any questions. Good luck to you and Loki!


Thank you so much for the response, and I'm glad to hear that Hunter is on the road to recovery. I actually have tried contacting Dr. Grooters at LSU, and haven't gotten a response back. We are pretty positive that it is Pythiosis after researching, talking to our new Vet who has experience in this, and looking at pictures online that are extremely similar.

We are still very stressed that all of the testing is taking as long as it is, but I guess we cannot change that. 

I will PM you for more information later.

Thank you so much for the support!


----------



## joneser

Consider taking pictures of his healing incision and the new red spots, so you have "documentation" of any changes. It will help you keep your head clear because you'll know what it looked like yesterday, and will help the dr too


----------



## Linda1270

Thinking of you and praying that you receive some type of answer today!


----------



## woogyboogy

Still no word from either vet yet. Also, no signs of throwing up, I think it was just the pill incident yesterday. 

I will keep everyone updated!


----------



## my boy diesel

Pau d'Arco Cautions and Side Effects is this what you are giving him? 
please remember some of these herbs are stronger than prescription meds and can have serious interactions with other drugs
also many of these things are dosed for human adults and not dogs


----------



## LisaT

Many things are toxic in high doses.

Pau D'Arco is a very effective anti-fungal, and yes, stronger than many of the others out there. I used it instead of the prescription antifungal for my boy, since he didn't tolerate the script one. I have used it for myself. If this were my dog, I would not want him unprotected for so long while all this is going on.....

I think pictures are a great idea to document this process in case you need them.

jwmedic, thanks for all that info, very helpful, and I'm glad that you were able to help your dog!


----------



## woogyboogy

Well no word today from either Vet. I did however get to talk to Robert Glass a couple hours ago, and he told me that he will have the results tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## LisaT

At least you now know when you'll know.... oops, I edited out the comment about the histo, seems I can't count, but maybe you will have results on that soon too.....


----------



## woogyboogy

We got the Histo in so far...I will post the actual copy here in a minute. I'm just scanning it right now.

BUT LIKE WE THOUGHT, IT WAS 100% INCONCLUSIVE... 

There was definitive proof of anything, essentially pointless...

Hopefully the blood tests will show otherwise, or else I'm going to freak out!:crazy::crazy:


----------



## Sunflowers




----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


>


This is exactly how I am feeling.:headbang::headbang::headbang:


----------



## woogyboogy

*Here is the Mini Profile:*

http://i.imgur.com/rfFKc2Q.jpg


*Here is the Histopathology Report:*

http://i.imgur.com/qC6ekJ3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Tmem2ja.jpg


If anyone has any input that would be awesome. However we did know that the Histopath would more than likely not detect Pythiosis or Lagenidium, so we aren't in total shock.

ALSO, if anyone can give me their opinion on how his Profile is, that would be awesome, because they are just numbers to me That was the blood work they did *BEFORE* his surgery.


----------



## ugavet2012

woogyboogy said:


> *Here is the Mini Profile:*
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/rfFKc2Q.jpg
> 
> 
> *Here is the Histopathology Report:*
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/qC6ekJ3.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/Tmem2ja.jpg
> 
> 
> If anyone has any input that would be awesome. However we did know that the Histopath would more than likely not detect Pythiosis or Lagenidium, so we aren't in total shock.
> 
> ALSO, if anyone can give me their opinion on how his Profile is, that would be awesome, because they are just numbers to me That was the blood work they did *BEFORE* his surgery.


It's not inconclusive, they gave you an answer best they could. They are suggesting some sort of fungus other than pythium/relatives and sometimes you need fungal cultures for those. GSD are known for getting weird fungal infections. 
The bloodwork is normal.


----------



## woogyboogy

ugavet2012 said:


> It's not inconclusive, they gave you an answer best they could. They are suggesting some sort of fungus other than pythium/relatives and sometimes you need fungal cultures for those. GSD are known for getting weird fungal infections.
> The bloodwork is normal.


So, do you believe a fungal infection is better than Pythiosis?


----------



## LisaT

On the mini-profile, a couple rambling thoughts, BUN and CREA are kidney parameters and are good. Everything is in the normal range. However, the total protein is at the low end of normal and I would watch to see if that comes up, that can signify a problem with digestion. I would expect a younger dog to have a higher ALP, which can represent bone growth, but no clue about that really, though it can be low end when they aren't getting enough nutrition.

Blood is hemolyzed, which can throw some things off, would have to look up if it affects those values - this can be from a bad blood draw or handling, or a problem with the blood (like some infections).


----------



## ugavet2012

woogyboogy said:


> So, do you believe a fungal infection is better than Pythiosis?


Sort of. 
Sometimes they have to be on anti-fungals for a long time and it can be expensive but if the infection is believed to be focal and mostly removed then you can hope that you won't have to do any additional treatment.


----------



## LisaT

I am confused by the timeline on the histo report, it appears as if the treatment plan was written after the addendum comments if you look at the actual date (7/22), but the treatment plan appears to not take into consideration the addendum (7/18).

In either event, glad you are in contact with Robert Glass, and I would continue the Pau D'Arco for now.


----------



## ugavet2012

LisaT said:


> I am confused by the timeline on the histo report, it appears as if the treatment plan was written after the addendum comments if you look at the actual date (7/22), but the treatment plan appears to not take into consideration the addendum (7/18).
> 
> In either event, glad you are in contact with Robert Glass, and I would continue the Pau D'Arco for now.


Actually it does because itraconazole and terbinafine are broad antifungals, probably the best.
Many clients go this route.


----------



## LisaT

ugavet2012 said:


> It's not inconclusive, they gave you an answer best they could. They are suggesting some sort of fungus other than pythium/relatives and sometimes you need fungal cultures for those. GSD are known for getting weird fungal infections.


When they did the original biopsy, don't they look for those things in general? Like whether they can see fungal stuff, or bacteria, etc., though they may not be able to identify where it comes from?


----------



## ugavet2012

LisaT said:


> When they did the original biopsy, don't they look for those things in general? Like whether they can see fungal stuff, or bacteria, etc., though they may not be able to identify where it comes from?


In a histopathology yes. Which is what this, it's from a biopsy. A culture is what the original vet first did which doesn't grow fungus unless you specifically ask for it and hardly anybody ever does that first. There are different types of culture; you have to specify which ones. It's very expensive to do them all.


----------



## carmspack

USNEA https://www.beneficialbotanicals.com/tincture-information/usnea.html 

Golden Lotus Botanicals - Usnea barbata / Bearded Usnea

Usnea


----------



## LisaT

ugavet2012 said:


> In a histopathology yes. Which is what this, it's from a biopsy. A culture is what the original vet first did which doesn't grow fungus unless you specifically ask for it and hardly anybody ever does that first. There are different types of culture; you have to specify which ones. It's very expensive to do them all.


Okay, thanks, that makes sense, that this was done backwards...I guess that had me thinking backwards.




> Originally Posted by *LisaT*
> I am confused by the timeline on the histo report, it appears as if the treatment plan was written after the addendum comments if you look at the actual date (7/22), but the treatment plan appears to not take into consideration the addendum (7/18).
> 
> 
> ugavet2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it does because itraconazole and terbinafine are broad antifungals, probably the best.
> Many clients go this route.
Click to expand...

Okay, because the treatment plan still mentions the pythium and other things, while the addendum said that it's supportive of something other than pythium and to look for other fungal stuff. Just seemed to contradict itself. BUT, they did say not diagnostic, only supportive, so I guess none of it could be ruled out.


----------



## woogyboogy

Ok, guys....Robert Glass just emailed me and said that his blood test is clearly positive for Pythium.:crazy:

So Pythium it is...


----------



## Sunflowers

Ok.... So, what now?


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> Ok.... So, what now?


Well, we haven't spoken to our Vet yet because its 7:00pm, but she did tell us prior to the blood test, that if Loki tests positive for Pythiosis, then she recommends an Ultrasound to see if there are any masses (Basically rule out any sort of internal Pythium). Then start him on the Vaccine as soon as possible. I'm going to demand to have the Vaccine ordered tomorrow.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Ok, guys....Robert Glass just emailed me and said that his blood test is clearly positive for Pythium.:crazy:
> 
> So Pythium it is...



Oh my. We have to only hope that the vaccine will work, as well as any other supportive therapies.

Does Glass have any other recommendations along with the vaccine? My understanding is that this is a titer result. I'm wondering what the titer value is, and what their "infected" range is....


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Oh my. We have to only hope that the vaccine will work, as well as any other supportive therapies.
> 
> Does Glass have any other recommendations along with the vaccine? My understanding is that this is a titer result. I'm wondering what the titer value is, and what their "infected" range is....


I'm not sure, I asked Robert Glass if he could call me some time tonight, so if he does, I will definitely ask him as much as I can. All I know is that the Vaccine isn't a 100% cure.:crazy:


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Sounds like a good plan to proceed asap. Especially with the ultrasound and vaccine.

Keeping fingers crossed it hasn't spread internally


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sounds like a good plan to proceed asap. Especially with the ultrasound and vaccine.
> 
> Keeping fingers crossed it hasn't spread internally


That would be the ultimate worse case scenario.

Thank you for the support. I will keep everyone updated!


----------



## my boy diesel

i am so glad you finally got your answer and it sounds like a good chance of being curable 

i also cant help but notice it is the same diagnosis as the original vet who 'didnt know anything' came up with!


----------



## llombardo

my boy diesel said:


> i am so glad you finally got your answer and it sounds like a good chance of being curable
> 
> i also cant help but notice it is the same diagnosis as the original vet who 'didnt know anything' came up with!


The problem is the first vet was hemming and hawing over the actual blood test for a definite diagnosis.


----------



## llombardo

So the biggest thing here is that the first vet got a wide enough margin? How is the dog behaving, any signs of not feeling well?


----------



## woogyboogy

my boy diesel said:


> i am so glad you finally got your answer and it sounds like a good chance of being curable
> 
> i also cant help but notice it is the same diagnosis as the original vet who 'didnt know anything' came up with!


The first Vet did mention Pythiosis, but had no plans of treatment. He said that the surgery was all that was needed, when clearly that is not the case. This is the reason why we had to seek a different Vet.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> So the biggest thing here is that the first vet got a wide enough margin? How is the dog behaving, any signs of not feeling well?


The Vet that performed the surgery said he took very wide margins. Loki has been acting a little lethargic lately, and has shown signs of rapid breathing even at rest. I've counted it several times on different occasions and its around 80-100 when he has been resting for 2 or more hours.

We are going to discuss all of that with our Vet tomorrow.


----------



## Linda1270

I'm glad that you finally received your answer, now the important thing is to get moving on this as soon as possible. Time is a huge factor now! 

I Hope the vet is going to do the ultrasound today.


----------



## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> I'm glad that you finally received your answer, now the important thing is to get moving on this as soon as possible. Time is a huge factor now!
> 
> I Hope the vet is going to do the ultrasound today.


Thanks, and we are going to try to get it done today.


----------



## woogyboogy

Quick Update; *I got the Vaccine ordered and it will be here this Friday and Loki will receive it the same day.* Also, we are going to have the ultrasound either tomorrow or Friday.

Here is just a quick side by side comparison of Loki's incision site from the day or the surgery til now. We are extremely pleased with how it has healed, and the rate of the hair growth is amazing.


----------



## Jax08

Just a thought...when my FIL had colon cancer and they were resecting his colon they would send it out to the lab to check the margins to see if they are clean. Is that possible to do with the sample the lab has?


----------



## wyoung2153

glad to get the update.. incision looks like it's healing great! praying for the ultrasounds to be good news! (well none of this is GOOD but you know what I mean)


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Just a thought...when my FIL had colon cancer and they were resecting his colon they would send it out to the lab to check the margins to see if they are clean. Is that possible to do with the sample the lab has?


Not sure, but I will ask my Vet tomorrow when I talk to her. Either way his blood is testing positive for Pythium, so he has Pythiosis in his blood stream.


----------



## woogyboogy

wyoung2153 said:


> glad to get the update.. incision looks like it's healing great! praying for the ultrasounds to be good news! (well none of this is GOOD but you know what I mean)


Thanks for the support and I know what you mean haha


----------



## Oliver'smom

Positive thoughts being sent your way! This is tough news, but at least you know what it is and you can move forward on an action plan. Limbo is the toughest spot for a caregiver to be and now you can move on. 

Also the incision and hair growth looks really good, much faster than we experienced with our dog.


----------



## LisaT

The incision is looking great - maybe that's the vetricyn helping too 

So glad that you are able to move forward with this, that must be a huge relief on some level. Will keep good thoughts for the u/s and hope the mail service isn't late!


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> Not sure, but I will ask my Vet tomorrow when I talk to her. Either way his blood is testing positive for Pythium, so he has Pythiosis in his blood stream.


Then I guess it's probably irrelevant.


----------



## osito23

Still thinking of you and Loki. He's a beautiful dog that has a bunch of people pulling for him.  Keep us updated.


----------



## GSDLoverII

osito23 said:


> Still thinking of you and Loki. He's a beautiful dog that has a bunch of people pulling for him.  Keep us updated.



Yes, me too...pulling for him! Prayers


----------



## woogyboogy

Oliver'smom said:


> Positive thoughts being sent your way! This is tough news, but at least you know what it is and you can move forward on an action plan. Limbo is the toughest spot for a caregiver to be and now you can move on.
> 
> Also the incision and hair growth looks really good, much faster than we experienced with our dog.


Yeah definitely hard news, but we are thankful we finally have a diagnosis.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> The incision is looking great - maybe that's the vetricyn helping too
> 
> So glad that you are able to move forward with this, that must be a huge relief on some level. Will keep good thoughts for the u/s and hope the mail service isn't late!


Yeah, we are shocked with how good the incision looks, and with how fast the hair is coming back. Could definitely be from the Vetericyn.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Then I guess it's probably irrelevant.


Yeah I would imagine so, I figured if he has Pythiosis in his blood that's all we really need to know.


----------



## woogyboogy

osito23 said:


> Still thinking of you and Loki. He's a beautiful dog that has a bunch of people pulling for him.  Keep us updated.


Thank you so much for the support!


----------



## woogyboogy

GSDLoverII said:


> Yes, me too...pulling for him! Prayers


Thank you!


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> .... I figured if he has Pythiosis in his blood that's all we really need to know.


Just a technical clarification....

IF the test is a titer test (which I believe it is), it measures the response of the immune system to the infection, which is a measurement of antibodies being sent to the site of the infection (and does not measure actual level of infection). This does not necessarily mean that the infection is in the blood, just that the messengers and responders of the immune system are. However, the way it spreads is probably via the blood, but the test is not measuring this.

If your dog had a largely defective immune system and a big infection, they could register low titers which makes them appear not infected. This can happen in long term tick infections, and luckily it looks like Loki's immune system is responding by creating antibodies, it just needs more help.....


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Just a technical clarification....
> 
> IF the test is a titer test (which I believe it is), it measures the response of the immune system to the infection, which is a measurement of antibodies being sent to the site of the infection (and does not measure actual level of infection). This does not necessarily mean that the infection is in the blood, just that the messengers and responders of the immune system are. However, the way it spreads is probably via the blood, but the test is not measuring this.
> 
> If your dog had a largely defective immune system and a big infection, they could register low titers which makes them appear not infected. This can happen in long term tick infections, and luckily it looks like Loki's immune system is responding by creating antibodies, it just needs more help.....


That's a good point that I did not even think to register. Definitely good info there!


----------



## LisaT

One question to ask, is how useful that test will be in monitoring response, and how quickly the antibodies change wrt to infection. In some infections, titers will go down very slowly, so you may be making progress, but it won't be reflected in the bloodwork for months and months. Robert Glass will have all of this info, but one step at a time - gotta get that vaccine into him!


----------



## readaboutdogs

Wow! Prayers to you and Loki.


----------



## Allie512

Thinking of you and Loki - very glad you at least have a diagnosis. Your research and efforts are impressive.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> One question to ask, is how useful that test will be in monitoring response, and how quickly the antibodies change wrt to infection. In some infections, titers will go down very slowly, so you may be making progress, but it won't be reflected in the bloodwork for months and months. Robert Glass will have all of this info, but one step at a time - gotta get that vaccine into him!


I will definitely ask him, but from what I've seen in other peoples past experiences is that the Vaccine is administered on Day 1, Day 7, then Day 21. Then you wait a month, and do another Blood Test to see if it comes back Negative, or Positive. If it comes back Positive, then you start the Vaccine over again, until the blood results are Negative.


----------



## woogyboogy

readaboutdogs said:


> Wow! Prayers to you and Loki.


Thank you!


----------



## woogyboogy

Allie512 said:


> Thinking of you and Loki - very glad you at least have a diagnosis. Your research and efforts are impressive.


Thank you for the support, I am trying to be as proactive as I can for my boy!


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> I will definitely ask him, but from what I've seen in other peoples past experiences is that the Vaccine is administered on Day 1, Day 7, then Day 21. Then you wait a month, and do another Blood Test to see if it comes back Negative, or Positive. If it comes back Positive, then you start the Vaccine over again, until the blood results are Negative.


I may be wrong then. A vaccine would boost antibodies response. If they can retest in a month, maybe it is a measurement of infection. Definitely something to ask about, exactly wht the vaccine is measuring, and how quickly the values will respond.


----------



## woogyboogy

Yeah I will send him an email today full of questions about the Vaccine.

We are trying to stay as positive as possible.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

How is your dude today?


----------



## woogyboogy

misslesleedavis1 said:


> How is your dude today?


He's doing good, I just came back from a walk with him, and now hes passed out haha


----------



## woogyboogy

We are going for the immunotherapy in about 2 hours...

Also, we are going next week for the Ultrasound...its $300 :headbang:


----------



## Linda1270

Glad to hear that your going for the immunotherapy in a little while, my thoughts and prayers are with you all! Why so long for the ultrasound though, shouldn't they be doing that right away? 

How is Loki doing, is his energy level and appetite still good? The wound looks great, it really is healing rapidly, hopefully this is a good sign.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, Loki got his shot around 2:30pm today, Prior to going in, we gave him 20mg of Acepromazine, and 1 Benedryl. Our Vet recommended this to us. The Acepromazine so he could be calm and relaxed, and the Benedryl, just in case he had/has any type of reaction.

But as of right now, he is out cold. Very tired, and sleepy, but I'm sure its because everything that we gave him. I will keep everyone updated on his progress. Our next shot is next Friday. 

Thanks everyone


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Hey everyone, Loki got his shot around 2:30pm today, Prior to going in, we gave him 20mg of Acepromazine, and 1 Benedryl. Our Vet recommended this to us. The Acepromazine so he could be calm and relaxed, and the Benedryl, just in case he had/has any type of reaction.
> 
> But as of right now, he is out cold. Very tired, and sleepy, but I'm sure its because everything that we gave him. I will keep everyone updated on his progress. Our next shot is next Friday.
> 
> Thanks everyone


Did the vet mention if the prognosis looks good or are they waiting on the ultra sound?


----------



## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> Glad to hear that your going for the immunotherapy in a little while, my thoughts and prayers are with you all! Why so long for the ultrasound though, shouldn't they be doing that right away?
> 
> How is Loki doing, is his energy level and appetite still good? The wound looks great, it really is healing rapidly, hopefully this is a good sign.


His appetite has NEVER changed, he still eats like a horse, if we filled his food bowl up all day long, he would never stop eating. His energy levels seem normal, maybe a little sleepy here and there, but he seems fine, and his mood is excellent.

We have to go to a "specialist" for the ultrasound because none of the Offices around us can do it? Which we find very odd? They can do X-Rays, but not Ultrasounds.

The office that our Vet referred us to is closed on Fridays so I have to called Monday to see if we can get him in on Monday.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Did the vet mention if the prognosis looks good or are they waiting on the ultra sound?


No they didn't. Unfortunately there isn't anyway they can tell if the prognosis is good or not *YET*. Like you said, I think the Ultrasound will make it look a little better, but the wound could come back at any given time, according to Robert Glass. That of course would mean the immunotherapy was ineffective.


----------



## woogyboogy

I've been in very close contact with Robert Glass these past few days, and this was one of the most recent questions I asked him;

"So in our situation with the cutaneous Pythium, we will give the 3 Vaccines and then no blood work is drawn again for 6-12 months? And then depending on that blood work whether it is positive or negative, will determine whether or not to give another round of the vaccine?"

Robert Glass said;

"In this case you should watch for any recurrence of lesions at the resection site. If any lesions reappear we will need to start a second round of treatment. Forget about additional testing. If he lives until testing is indicated, he has survived."


I will post more Q&A's soon.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> I've been in very close contact with Robert Glass these past few days, and this was one of the most recent questions I asked him;
> 
> "So in our situation with the cutaneous Pythium, we will give the 3 Vaccines and then no blood work is drawn again for 6-12 months? And then depending on that blood work whether it is positive or negative, will determine whether or not to give another round of the vaccine?"
> 
> Robert Glass said;
> 
> "In this case you should watch for any recurrence of lesions at the resection site. If any lesions reappear we will need to start a second round of treatment. Forget about additional testing. If he lives until testing is indicated, he has survived."
> 
> 
> I will post more Q&A's soon.


So there is no time frame that you can say he survived? Can it come back in 2 years for example?


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> So there is no time frame that you can say he survived? Can it come back in 2 years for example?


Apparently we will run another ELISA test in the future, 6-12 months, I believe, and if it comes back negative, he is cured of it. However he can get it again if he is exposed to it, like going in stagnant water. Which trust me...will *NOT* happen!


----------



## lalachka

I have a feeling he will make it. I don't know why but I do.


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## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Apparently we will run another ELISA test in the future, 6-12 months, I believe, and if it comes back negative, he is cured of it. However he can get it again if he is exposed to it, like going in stagnant water. Which trust me...will *NOT* happen!


I've been taking mine swimming and I watch to make sure it's not stagnant. My older golden got a rash on his neck and I freaked out. Turns out it was from his fur not drying all the way. I've also taken them to a pool where I pay an arm and a leg but I know it's clean.


----------



## woogyboogy

Here are another series of questions and answers between Robert Glass and I.

Robert Glass' responses are in *bold*.

1. Just to verify, does the test measure antibodies produced by the body in response to the infection, as opposed to a measurement of the level of infection itself.

*The test is for antibodies produced in response to exposure or infection with Pythium. We tested over 2000 dogs and horses that had no sign of infection and did not find any that tested Positive.
*

2. Does the vaccine increase antibody response by the body? If so, and if they expect the antibodies to decrease to normal within a month, does that mean that the vaccine does not provide a long lasting protection? Would that mean that the vaccine is most useful for fighting the disease and not preventing it, or its recurrence?

*The Immuotherapy induces antibody production but more importantly stimulates a strong cellular immune response to Pythium. It also induces a change in the immune response from allergic (T2) to a non allergic (T1). This is important as the T2 response does not kill the Pythium and the T1 does. Also, the T2 allergic response is what cause the acute allergic lesion and tissue death. T1 down regulates the allergic response and "defuses" the inflammation. In the animal treated with Immunotherapy the antibody response does not return to normal/negative in a month, in fact this takes as many 6-12 months. When the animal is cured by means other than Immunotherapy (surgery/antifungals/spontaneous remission) the antibody levels may decline to normal levels much earlier. We did an uncontrolled study in horse to look at prevention of infection. This was done in Brazil in a herd of 300 brood mares in the Pantanal region (swamps). This herd had a history of 7-10% infection over >5 years. We vaccinated 100 of the mares and left 200 as negative controls. The study was over a period of 3 years with each horse getting the initial 3 injection series on day 1 and a single injection each year thereafter. After three years the control animals had a total 45 infections (Average 7.5%/year) and the vaccinated horses had no infections. These looks very promising for horses but we don't know if it will be similar for dogs. For now the Immunotherapy should be used to treat infections.*


3. Is the correct administered Vaccine procedure, Day 1, Day 7, and then Day 21?

*Yes*


4. How long do we have to wait after the 3 Vaccines have been given until we can run another blood test? 

*When using the Immunotherapy blood test to monitor treatment success is not indicated as it will be 6 month or longer before a significant antibody decline may be seen. It is doubtful that an animal that continues to be infected after the treatment will not be clinically ill or even dead after 6 months.
*

5. Are there any side effects to the Vaccine that we should be aware of, like lethargy, vomiting, diarrhea, reaction to where the Vaccine was administered?

*Occasionally a dog will show some lethargy after the treatment. This will go away in 24-48 hours.*

6. I'm also wondering if you know of anyone that has tried one of the Tetracyclines in this protocol: In Vitro Susceptibility of Pythium insidiosum to Macrolides and Tetracycline Antibiotics

*This is an In Vitro (in a culture not in an animal) study and we have seen several similar studies where In Vitro data is not duplicated in In Vivo (in the animal) studies.*



Thank you *LisaT*


----------



## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> I have a feeling he will make it. I don't know why but I do.


Yeah...we do too. :teary:


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> I've been taking mine swimming and I watch to make sure it's not stagnant. My older golden got a rash on his neck and I freaked out. Turns out it was from his fur not drying all the way. I've also taken them to a pool where I pay an arm and a leg but I know it's clean.


If everything works out and he makes it, the only bodies of water he will every be aloud to go in will be the Pool, and the Ocean.


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## JakodaCD OA

stagnant water is not the only water dogs can pick up 'stuff' from..It can be clear as a bell, but you never know what's lurking in it..

I am a paranoid momma, Masi LOVES to swim, but after she was sick last year, absolutely no ponds, no lakes,,only Ocean and a pool..


----------



## lalachka

woogyboogy said:


> In the animal treated with Immunotherapy the antibody response does not return to normal/negative in a month, in fact this takes as many 6-12 months. When the animal is cured by means other than Immunotherapy (surgery/antifungals/spontaneous remission) the antibody levels may decline to normal levels much earlier.


I don't get this. so then why aren't you getting antifungals? or this is either or? or you are getting them?


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## Allie512

You might want to reconsider ocean water - Vibrio Warnings: How to Avoid Ocean-Dwelling Bacteria - there were 33 cases in Florida last year.


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## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> I don't get this. so then why aren't you getting antifungals? or this is either or? or you are getting them?


Antifungals have been proven to be highly ineffective in dogs with Pythium. Not only that but people I've spoken to that have tried using antifungals, said they were spending $600+ a month on them.


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> stagnant water is not the only water dogs can pick up 'stuff' from..It can be clear as a bell, but you never know what's lurking in it..
> 
> I am a paranoid momma, Masi LOVES to swim, but after she was sick last year, absolutely no ponds, no lakes,,only Ocean and a pool..


Yeah, Pool and Ocean is all he will be allowed to go into!


----------



## woogyboogy

This was my final question to Robert Glass;

_How can we be 100% positive that it is cured? Can't we run an ELISA test in 6-12 months to check and see if there are any traces of Pythium?_

*My experience with Pythium has been that essentially no dog is infected and still alive six month after diagnosis. I'm sure there are exceptions but very few. If you want to run a test after 6 months (minimum) there is no harm and it will likely show a lower or negative score. In case you decide to do that you should keep this number: 323% that is his Pythium score now and that is the number to use as a comparison for later tests.*

Thanks everyone and goodnight!


----------



## LisaT

I think we have to resign ourselves that there are dangers nearly everywhere, and it's probably going to get worse with climate change and the global movement of animal and people 

Many regular vet practices don't have an ultrasound machine, and if they do, reading them is really a skill that you want someone with that training reading. Even when my dog had an u/s, the specialty clinic wanted me to wait for the traveling guy to come around, because the vet liked his equipment better, and maybe the skill of the guy too, though he didn't come out and say that.

Those answers by Glass make complete sense - the vaccine will boost the antibody response, which won't wane for several months. And during that critical time, between now and retest, the best guide will be just monitoring his response.

I don't understand why the Ace was used, seems to me that it just complicates observation of the response to the vaccine.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> This was my final question to Robert Glass;
> 
> _How can we be 100% positive that it is cured? Can't we run an ELISA test in 6-12 months to check and see if there are any traces of Pythium?_
> 
> *My experience with Pythium has been that essentially no dog is infected and still alive six month after diagnosis. I'm sure there are exceptions but very few. If you want to run a test after 6 months (minimum) there is no harm and it will likely show a lower or negative score. In case you decide to do that you should keep this number: 323% that is his Pythium score now and that is the number to use as a comparison for later tests.*
> 
> Thanks everyone and goodnight!


This is not globally true, but appears mostly true. There are *isolated* cases (case?) of a at least one dog fighting for a long time and finally beating it. But statistically it appears, they either beat it at this point, or the results are not good. 

But Loki had his surgery, and now the mop up immunotherapy has begun - let the healing begin


----------



## LisaT

Oh, this also means that the test can be run to determine if a revax is needed down the road, should you decide that you want to keep these antibodies circulating.

There is a special place for people like Robert Glass that make themselves so accessible to us regular pet owners in circumstances like this....


----------



## _Zero_

LisaT said:


> Many regular vet practices don't have an ultrasound machine, and if they do, reading them is really a skill that you want someone with that training reading. Even when my dog had an u/s, the specialty clinic wanted me to wait for the traveling guy to come around, because the vet liked his equipment better, and maybe the skill of the guy too, though he didn't come out and say that.


This. I was going to respond to your original post about the ultrasound but LisaT hit the nail on the head. Performing an ultrasound is relatively straightforward and any vet can do it, but reading and interpreting an ultrasound is a completely different ballgame. Unless something is blatantly wrong (e.g. huge tumor, internal bleed, etc.) changes in tissue can be subtle or difficult to correctly identify without a good deal of experience, either by a specialist, or, even better, a radiologist. 

My dog was very ill last year and in our search for a diagnosis we took him to a clinic in Canada to have an ultrasound. The vet their told me straight up that she was happy to perform one, but was not confident in her ability to interpret the resultant images. I think it's great that you're seeing a specialist. If we lived in the lower 48 we most definitely would have paid the extra cash to see a radiologist instead!


----------



## joneser

how are the other red bumps in the area that you mentioned a few days ago?


----------



## lalachka

woogyboogy said:


> Antifungals have been proven to be highly ineffective in dogs with Pythium. Not only that but people I've spoken to that have tried using antifungals, said they were spending $600+ a month on them.


Got you. I was only going by his sentence. And I know this has been very expensive.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Oh, this also means that the test can be run to determine if a revax is needed down the road, should you decide that you want to keep these antibodies circulating.
> 
> There is a special place for people like Robert Glass that make themselves so accessible to us regular pet owners in circumstances like this....


I totally agree with everything you've said above Lisa, no matter how hard we try to keep your pets out of danger, the chance of something happening will always be prevalent. 

Robert Glass is truly an amazing person, with incredible dedication. He has always answered any of my questions, and very promptly too. He, along with many people on this forum are the reason why we are still trying out HARDEST to fight, and resolve all of this. 

Hopefully the immunotherapy will be the finishing touch to destroy this nasty infection.


----------



## woogyboogy

_Zero_ said:


> This. I was going to respond to your original post about the ultrasound but LisaT hit the nail on the head. Performing an ultrasound is relatively straightforward and any vet can do it, but reading and interpreting an ultrasound is a completely different ballgame. Unless something is blatantly wrong (e.g. huge tumor, internal bleed, etc.) changes in tissue can be subtle or difficult to correctly identify without a good deal of experience, either by a specialist, or, even better, a radiologist.
> 
> My dog was very ill last year and in our search for a diagnosis we took him to a clinic in Canada to have an ultrasound. The vet their told me straight up that she was happy to perform one, but was not confident in her ability to interpret the resultant images. I think it's great that you're seeing a specialist. If we lived in the lower 48 we most definitely would have paid the extra cash to see a radiologist instead!


Yeah, our Vet basically told us the same thing. She said that she would much rather give us a referral to a Specialist so they can perform the Ultrasound with a 100% proper diagnosis.


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## woogyboogy

joneser said:


> how are the other red bumps in the area that you mentioned a few days ago?


The red bumps are still there, they might be slightly smaller. We are keeping a very close eye on them as well, and mentioned them to the Vet, and she said just continue doing what we are doing.


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## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> Got you. I was only going by his sentence. And I know this has been very expensive.


Yeah, expensive to say the least. We've spent more than $2,600 just on the Pythium issue alone, and being 23 years old makes that very difficult.

But, we must do what we have to for the ones we love.


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## lalachka

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah, expensive to say the least. We've spent more than $2,600 just on the Pythium issue alone, and being 23 years old makes that very difficult.
> 
> But, we must do what we have to for the ones we love.


Lol you can be broke at any age but I know most 23 year olds don't have it set yet. i didn't know you were that young. you're doing really well


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## woogyboogy

lalachka said:


> Lol you can be broke at any age but I know most 23 year olds don't have it set yet. i didn't know you were that young. you're doing really well


Yeah that's the truth! Thanks for the support!


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## Jax08

Haven't responded but have been reading and thinking of you guys!


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## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Haven't responded but have been reading and thinking of you guys!


Thanks Jax, I appreciate the support!


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## woogyboogy

*UPDATE:*

Today is the first day after his first immunotherapy shot. Loki is doing good, he didn't seem to have any adverse reaction to it, thankfully. He seems as normal as ever really. Still eating like a horse, playing here and there, and then coming inside to nap for about a hour, then back at it.

His dew claws that were removed are totally closed up and are almost fully healed. His umbilical hernia incision is closed up, and healed. His main incision is looking really good, we are continuing to keep the Elizabethan collar on him because we don't want to risk anything.

He gets his 2nd immunotherapy shot on August 1st, and his 3rd shot on August 15th. Then we wait 6 months, AND if he is still doing well within that 6 month period, we will retest his blood to see if the Pythium levels have decreased, or are obsolete. 

I will be keeping everyone updated here don't worry!!!


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## BowWowMeow

I am glad that your pup is getting better and I hope the immunotherapy shots take care of the infection!


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## woogyboogy

BowWowMeow said:


> I am glad that your pup is getting better and I hope the immunotherapy shots take care of the infection!


Thank you for the support!


----------



## ugavet2012

_Zero_ said:


> This. I was going to respond to your original post about the ultrasound but LisaT hit the nail on the head. Performing an ultrasound is relatively straightforward and any vet can do it, but reading and interpreting an ultrasound is a completely different ballgame. Unless something is blatantly wrong (e.g. huge tumor, internal bleed, etc.) changes in tissue can be subtle or difficult to correctly identify without a good deal of experience, either by a specialist, or, even better, a radiologist.
> 
> My dog was very ill last year and in our search for a diagnosis we took him to a clinic in Canada to have an ultrasound. The vet their told me straight up that she was happy to perform one, but was not confident in her ability to interpret the resultant images. I think it's great that you're seeing a specialist. If we lived in the lower 48 we most definitely would have paid the extra cash to see a radiologist instead!


Lol, performing an ultrasound is not straight forward at all and not all vets can do it by an stretch. It has taken me time in and out of school over a 2 year stretch to learn how to do one and there are still structures I can't find. The images are even harder to interpret but part of interpreting is having good & correct images to look at--meaning you can't just pick up a probe your first (or 2nd or 3rd...) time and play around and get meaningful images. 

OP I'm glad you got your answers and found a good vet. I think Loki will make it through ok


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## MiraC

After reading all the posts and seeing the diagnosis , I live in Kentucky and I have a pond my horses and Dog like to go in!
I'm now terrified about this! Had your pup been swimming in a warm body of water before this all happened?? Our pond freezes in the winter so hopefully that keeps this at bay! Very scary.


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## woogyboogy

ugavet2012 said:


> Lol, performing an ultrasound is not straight forward at all and not all vets can do it by an stretch. It has taken me time in and out of school over a 2 year stretch to learn how to do one and there are still structures I can't find. The images are even harder to interpret but part of interpreting is having good & correct images to look at--meaning you can't just pick up a probe your first (or 2nd or 3rd...) time and play around and get meaningful images.
> 
> OP I'm glad you got your answers and found a good vet. I think Loki will make it through ok


Thank you for all of your help, and support. I appreciate your professionalism.


----------



## woogyboogy

MiraC said:


> After reading all the posts and seeing the diagnosis , I live in Kentucky and I have a pond my horses and Dog like to go in!
> I'm now terrified about this! Had your pup been swimming in a warm body of water before this all happened?? Our pond freezes in the winter so hopefully that keeps this at bay! Very scary.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Yeah I would definitely be cautious, cases have been recorded in Kentucky. But yeah, he had been in a pond that was stagnant water at around the time all of this arose. We are 99.9% positive that is how he came into contact with this infection.


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## LisaT

Glad to hear that Loki is doing well.....


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## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Glad to hear that Loki is doing well.....


Thank you Lisa!


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## katieliz

i'm glad too!!! what an ordeal, whew. and i don't imagine you're totally comfortable yet. so glad tho...that so far, so good. take care!


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## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> i'm glad too!!! what an ordeal, whew. and i don't imagine you're totally comfortable yet. so glad tho...that so far, so good. take care!


Yeah definitely not even close to comfortable yet. But thank you for the support!

We have our Ultrasound appointment on Thursday. The office is about an hour away, and its what they specialize in. Also, the Vet performing the Ultrasound has seen internal Pythium before, and knows exactly what to look for. We are praying that there are absolutely *NO* signs of Pythium internally.


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## JakodaCD OA

katielz is right, Oliver's mom if you want to help take it to pm's. WHile we all can appreciate the cost of medical care and understand it comes from the heart, it's not allowed, I'm sure your post will be removed by a moderator of this forum.


----------



## Castlemaid

JakodaCD OA said:


> katielz is right, Oliver's mom if you want to help take it to pm's. WHile we all can appreciate the cost of medical care and understand it comes from the heart, it's not allowed, I'm sure your post will be removed by a moderator of this forum.


I've removed a number of posts that where going against the no solicitaion/fundraising on the board rule. As mentioned, if you wish to help, you will need to do so privately. 

From the board rules:


> Solicitation of donations of money for any reason is not permitted on this board under any circumstances . Posting links to other sites for soliciting and directing people to won't be allowed. This NO SOLICITING rule will be strictly enforced.


Thank you, and good luck with your pup!


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## Linda1270

I feel the need to check in on this site everyday in order to make sure that Loki is still on the mend. I must commend you for being so dedicated to the well being of your dog and at such a young age...very admirable. It sounds like Loki is doing well, I couldn't be more happier for you and your family. You have been through so much and have been handling it like a pro. I feel a good outcome will come out of this.


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## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> I feel the need to check in on this site everyday in order to make sure that Loki is still on the mend. I must commend you for being so dedicated to the well being of your dog and at such a young age...very admirable. It sounds like Loki is doing well, I couldn't be more happier for you and your family. You have been through so much and have been handling it like a pro. I feel a good outcome will come out of this.


Thank you for the support! We are hoping he is on the road to recovery, and are trying to stay as positive as possible.

Thursday is the ultimate test though. Once we know the results of the Ultrasound (if they are positive), we will be a lot more relieved. We are just hoping that he doesn't have any internal Pythium.


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## LisaT

How are those new spots that you saw? Hopefully they are unrelated?


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## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> How are those new spots that you saw? Hopefully they are unrelated?


Hey Lisa, the spots are still there, but they don't appear to be as red, and they look smaller.


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## LisaT

Whatever they are, glad that they are looking smaller. Good luck tomorrow :fingerscrossed:


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## woogyboogy

Thank you so much Lisa, we are very nervous, but are more than ready to get the results on the Ultrasound.


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## woogyboogy

Well, looks like the wait continues. The Vet called earlier today, and cancelled our Ultrasound appointment until Monday...so now we have to wait another 3 days...This is killing us slowly having to wait wait wait:crazy:


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## CindyMDBecker

WHAT?!?!?! That makes me sick to my stomach. Come on already!  Hang in there. (hugs)


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## woogyboogy

CindyMDBecker said:


> WHAT?!?!?! That makes me sick to my stomach. Come on already!  Hang in there. (hugs)


Yeah that's exactly how we felt when we got the phone call.

We are just very anxious, and want to get this over with and know the results.:crazy:


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## CindyMDBecker

woogyboogy said:


> Yeah that's exactly how we felt when we got the phone call.
> 
> We are just very anxious, and want to get this over with and know the results.:crazy:


It's so not fair. How in the world can one justify putting that off considering EVERYTHING you (and Loki) have been through emotionally and physically. Seriously. I have a knot in my stomach. Waiting for test results is awful enough but having to keep waiting for the actual test and then the results ... it's just awful. (I guess I'm not the best at being a good support-system here. Sorry.) Just feel your pain is all.


----------



## woogyboogy

CindyMDBecker said:


> It's so not fair. How in the world can one justify putting that off considering EVERYTHING you (and Loki) have been through emotionally and physically. Seriously. I have a knot in my stomach. Waiting for test results is awful enough but having to keep waiting for the actual test and then the results ... it's just awful. (I guess I'm not the best at being a good support-system here. Sorry.) Just feel your pain is all.


I completely agree with you 100%...the only positive thing about the Ultrasound, is that I'm 99.9% positive we will know the results instantly. The actual DVM is performing the Ultrasound, and she's looking for any signs of Pythium, we are *PRAYING* that there are none whatsoever, but she should be able to tell us right there on the spot.


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## Heidigsd

Fingers crossed here that the ultrasound will come up negative for any signs of Pythium on Monday :hug:


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## woogyboogy

Heidigsd said:


> Fingers crossed here that the ultrasound will come up negative for any signs of Pythium on Monday :hug:


Thanks for the support!


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## LisaT

Well, that sucks. You're right though, you should find out the results right away, which is at least some consolation.

The waiting continues!


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## woogyboogy

Hey everyone...I believe we have hit an all time low...

Today I got a call from our Vet, and she told us that she had spoke with Dr. Amy Grooters, (Amy M. Grooters). She is basically the queen of Pythiosis, Lagenidiosis, Zygomycosis, and Molecular mycology. 

Dr. Grooters told our Vet, that the Histopath has very non-consistent results, and that the ELISA test can also be a false positive. So, we are sending out the slides from the Histopath to Dr. Grooters in Louisiana so she can look at them her self and determine what exactly it is.

Apparently from what Dr. Grooters told our Vet, is that the Cutaneous, and GI forms of Pythium, do not go together. Usually its one, or the other, not both. 

She said that if he tested positive for Pythium PRIOR to surgery, that VERY large margins would need to be removed, as in removing Muscle Mass, Parts of his spine, and possibly a rib. So she said since that wasn't done during the surgery, it is not completely removed, and said she is positive it will return, even with receiving the immunotherapy. 

BUT, if it is Cutaneous Lagenidium, and has been removed, more than likely it will not return. However, Internal Lagenidium is almost impossible to cure, even with surgery. When I talked to Bob Glass when we received the results from him, he said that there is a very small chance it could be Lagenidium, but he was certain it was Pythium.

Dr. Grooters told our Vet that he should be put on Anti-fungals, specifically "Itraconazole", which from what I heard from other people who have used it, is around $300 a month. Still haven't figured out how we are going to be able to afford that if we decide to go that route...:crazy: And the majority of the people I've talked to that have used Itraconazole, has said it was very ineffective.

Dr. Grooters also told our Vet that the immunotherapy is really not that effective in cutaneous Pythium.


We feel like we are back to square one again...this is extremely frustrating, and depressing. We are almost at our wits end with all of this, but aren't going to give up. We have spent so much money and time on this and now we feel as though we are back at the starting line.:crazy:


----------



## carmspack

how terrible ! You can't have more expert people on your side trying to figure out what this is .

Does anyone remember that thread about the skin condition that baffled vets? There were samples sent to the father of one of my friend's undergrads , whose father just so happens to be a specialist in Norway, chief Vet .
Maybe this can be included in the study.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> how terrible ! You can't have more expert people on your side trying to figure out what this is .
> 
> Does anyone remember that thread about the skin condition that baffled vets? There were samples sent to the father of one of my friend's undergrads , whose father just so happens to be a specialist in Norway, chief Vet .
> Maybe this can be included in the study.


Yeah we feel like we've just done a complete 180...we don't know what to think.:crazy::crazy:


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## katieliz

how totally frustrating. thinking of you and hoping things turn a corner somehow and become more hopeful and positive. take care. (((hugs))).


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> how totally frustrating. thinking of you and hoping things turn a corner somehow and become more hopeful and positive. take care. (((hugs))).


You have no idea how frustrating this is...we are trying to stay as positive as possible.


----------



## carmspack

In the meantime be proactive .

Ask one of the attending vets what you should be doing for the dog to maintain or improve whatever health status the dog has at the moment.

Should you be giving efa's , should you be giving some natural anti fungal , an immune balancer , vitamin C , E, probiotics to help with balance of gut flora and general health.

There has to be something .


----------



## woogyboogy

I will post in the morning, I am far to tired to post now, but I will give a quick run down on what has happened today. 

From more than 10 people I had the chance to talk to today, I've learned that Dr. Grooters has ALWAYS been against Bob Glass. She had the funding for the research for the immunotherapy but was never able to make a serum to save the dogs. However, Bob Glass, Dr. Leo Mendoza at Michigan State & Dr. Richard Hanson in New Castle, OK, were able to create an immunotherapy that has been proven time after time to be effective, Therefore Grooters runs Mr. Glass' serum down, and doesn't recommend it to anyone...IT BLOWS MY MIND!:headbang:

I will post more tomorrow, I haven't slept in a while.:crazy:


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## LisaT

The politics of research is pretty ugly when it gets to the level when it affects the health of the ones it is supposed to help  

I'm really glad that you were able to get some info on this.

Often, when there is a false positive on a test, there can be some cross-reaction, and that seems to happen more often, I think, when the titers come back in the low-positive range. I do not know if your titer value is more of an indication that this is not a false positive, or whether this works the same way.

I know that, so far, Loki has been holding his own, and I'm going to hang onto that thought right now.


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## llombardo

This has got to be so confusing. How do you know who to listen to? I think I know which way I would go. I can't say how many times I went with the advice of a pharmacist over a doctor and the pharmacist was always right......in this case Glass is the pharmacist.


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## sparra

One has told you to use anti fungals which have been seen to not work and one has told you to use immunotherapy which has been seen to work in many cases......I know who I would be listening to.


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## katieliz

your research and perseverance just blow my mind. get some rest. sending all good thoughts.


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## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> The politics of research is pretty ugly when it gets to the level when it affects the health of the ones it is supposed to help
> 
> I'm really glad that you were able to get some info on this.
> 
> Often, when there is a false positive on a test, there can be some cross-reaction, and that seems to happen more often, I think, when the titers come back in the low-positive range. I do not know if your titer value is more of an indication that this is not a false positive, or whether this works the same way.
> 
> I know that, so far, Loki has been holding his own, and I'm going to hang onto that thought right now.


The Politics on this is extremely distasteful...I cannot believe what I had learned yesterday. 

The chance of survival with Anti-fungals and Surgery is so slim (3-5%), according to Dr. Grooters. Where as Surgery, and the immunotherapy is much greater (45-50%).

Also the use of anti-fungals on a 6 month old puppy would probably be devastating to his kidneys and his whole well-being in general.

We are going to go with our instinct and stick with Bob Glass.


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## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> This has got to be so confusing. How do you know who to listen to? I think I know which way I would go. I can't say how many times I went with the advice of a pharmacist over a doctor and the pharmacist was always right......in this case Glass is the pharmacist.


It is so confusing, when I got the call from our Vet yesterday, my mind had exploded with so many negative thoughts. But we have had time to think about it and have made our decision.


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## woogyboogy

sparra said:


> One has told you to use anti fungals which have been seen to not work and one has told you to use immunotherapy which has been seen to work in many cases......I know who I would be listening to.


Excellent choice of words. I'm glad you are on our side!


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## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> your research and perseverance just blow my mind. get some rest. sending all good thoughts.


Thank you for the kind words, but I won't be able to fully rest until I know Loki's health is taken care of.


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## CindyMDBecker

woogyboogy said:


> ... We are going to go with our instinct and stick with Bob Glass.


:thumbup:

I am so proud of you that through ALL of this you are hanging in there. I can barely handle READING about it ... can not imagine living it firsthand. No matter what, you are doing the best you can and that dog is already ahead of the game because of it. 

How is Loki holding up? Hope his spirits are up ... I'm sure that's rewarding for you.

Big, tight hugs to all of you.


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## woogyboogy

CindyMDBecker said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I am so proud of you that through ALL of this you are hanging in there. I can barely handle READING about it ... can not imagine living it firsthand. No matter what, you are doing the best you can and that dog is already ahead of the game because of it.
> 
> How is Loki holding up? Hope his spirits are up ... I'm sure that's rewarding for you.
> 
> Big, tight hugs to all of you.



Thank you so much for the positive energy Cindy. We are trying our best to do everything we can, and think of every possible situation with the best outcome.

Loki is a trooper, he is doing good. He got his second injection of the immunotherapy yesterday, and maybe seems a little bit lethargic from it. But his demeanor is great, so we can't complain about that.


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## Oliver'smom

*Sometimes you gotta go with your gut*

We ended up in a situation with our previous dog, where we were getting conflicting diagnosis based on seeking a 2nd opinion with specialists. We didn't know what to do or have the medical background to make any sense of the options.

I ended up sitting down with our general Vet, who I really trusted, and just said which of the specialists do you think it right? We went with his recommendation and didn't look back. It was a gut call based on who we had the most trusted working relationship with for the dog. 

You guys have already demonstrated that you have Loki's best interest at heart by moving him to a different Vet with more experience, searching out options, researching, taking time off to care for him. You'll make the right decisions because you are making them from the unselfish position of doing what is right for Loki. 

That being said, don't you sometimes just wish the language barrier could be lifted for just a minute so you could give your dog the pros and cons and ask them what they want to do! That is what makes this relationship with dogs so unique, trust across the species divide that you are both doing your best for the other.


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## woogyboogy

Oliver'smom said:


> We ended up in a situation with our previous dog, where we were getting conflicting diagnosis based on seeking a 2nd opinion with specialists. We didn't know what to do or have the medical background to make any sense of the options.
> 
> I ended up sitting down with our general Vet, who I really trusted, and just said which of the specialists do you think it right? We went with his recommendation and didn't look back. It was a gut call based on who we had the most trusted working relationship with for the dog.
> 
> You guys have already demonstrated that you have Loki's best interest at heart by moving him to a different Vet with more experience, searching out options, researching, taking time off to care for him. You'll make the right decisions because you are making them from the unselfish position of doing what is right for Loki.
> 
> That being said, don't you sometimes just wish the language barrier could be lifted for just a minute so you could give your dog the pros and cons and ask them what they want to do! That is what makes this relationship with dogs so unique, trust across the species divide that you are both doing your best for the other.


Yeah we definitely trust our "new" vet way more than the previous. But I'm not so sure I'll ever be able to fully trust any Vet. We definitely feel as though this is the right decision for Loki's well-being. 

And I totally wish for even 30 seconds I could just talk to Loki and let him know whats going on, but you are right, that's what makes owning an animal completely unique.

Thank you so much for the support!!!


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## LisaT

I think one hopes to develop a trusting relationship with a vet whose opinions you respect, but once you've gone through something like this, the days of "blind trust" are over. This will change the way you approach your care for Loki and every other animal you have in the future (and maybe even your own health). I would say that those lessons also extend to trainers too....

I don't know why, but I kinda like seeing a bit of a reaction to the shot, but that might be misguided. I'm very encouraged that you aren't seeing any skin symptoms with the shots. I don't think the surgery got it all, but I think nothing showing up now may be a good sign that it got enough to give the immune system a chance to mop the stray stuff up.

I might wonder if at some point xrays would be warranted (I was worried about the bone issue from some of the other stuff I had read), but, in some sense, that won't change anything that you do at this point, and, when looked at it from that point of view, is an added cost that doesn't alter things.

The important part is that Loki can feel your intent. He knows what he needs to know


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## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I think one hopes to develop a trusting relationship with a vet whose opinions you respect, but once you've gone through something like this, the days of "blind trust" are over. This will change the way you approach your care for Loki and every other animal you have in the future (and maybe even your own health). I would say that those lessons also extend to trainers too....
> 
> I don't know why, but I kinda like seeing a bit of a reaction to the shot, but that might be misguided. I'm very encouraged that you aren't seeing any skin symptoms with the shots. I don't think the surgery got it all, but I think nothing showing up now may be a good sign that it got enough to give the immune system a chance to mop the stray stuff up.
> 
> I might wonder if at some point xrays would be warranted (I was worried about the bone issue from some of the other stuff I had read), but, in some sense, that won't change anything that you do at this point, and, when looked at it from that point of view, is an added cost that doesn't alter things.
> 
> The important part is that Loki can feel your intent. He knows what he needs to know


Yeah unfortunately for us, this situation has changed out perspective on A LOT of things. Trusting Vets is the main one, also now we are going to be paranoid about letting him in any body of water. 

His second shot was administered yesterday, and the only reaction I can see is that he might be a little lethargic. There is no actual visual reaction on his skin at the injection site. 

When we get the Ultrasound done, we are going to ask that Specialist if she would recommend having Xrays done, I'm not sure if it would be pointless? 

I think Loki can understand that we are trying to do everything we can for him, but we just want him to be happy, and healthy, and for all of this to be behind us.

Thanks for the support Lisa!


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## LisaT

Not sure about the xray, just don't want to spend anymore of your money than necessary!!

The water thing is REALLY disturbing, just the number of things that can be an issue. I didn't realize how many truly nasty things the dogs were getting. In the UK early this summer, dogs were succumbing to Alabama Rot somehow from the soil (they still don't know what causes it). I know dogs have gotten very sick from the algae bloom too, and now huge numbers of people can't drink their water in ohio because of it. With the drought here in CA, I know there are going to be some issues here too. Jazz here doesn't swim, but she likes to slap the water and catch the drops with her mouth. I think Loki has a lot of us kinda paranoid! He has served as a public service announcement I guess.....

Glad he is doing well after the second shot!


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Not sure about the xray, just don't want to spend anymore of your money than necessary!!
> 
> The water thing is REALLY disturbing, just the number of things that can be an issue. I didn't realize how many truly nasty things the dogs were getting. In the UK early this summer, dogs were succumbing to Alabama Rot somehow from the soil (they still don't know what causes it). I know dogs have gotten very sick from the algae bloom too, and now huge numbers of people can't drink their water in ohio because of it. With the drought here in CA, I know there are going to be some issues here too. Jazz here doesn't swim, but she likes to slap the water and catch the drops with her mouth. I think Loki has a lot of us kinda paranoid! He has served as a public service announcement I guess.....
> 
> Glad he is doing well after the second shot!


Yeah we will find out if the Xray is necessary tomorrow. But I couldn't agree more. We NEVER in a million years would have thought this would have happened with us to our very FIRST dog...it has just opened our eyes to so much more, and that's not necessarily a good thing.


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## woogyboogy

We are going tomorrow for the Ultrasound, I will update this status with the results. Wish us tons of luck!


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## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> We are going tomorrow for the Ultrasound, I will update this status with the results. Wish us tons of luck!


Keeping all of you in my thoughts and saying a prayer.


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## pineconeforestGSD

I have used CALENDULA cream for similar situation and had great success.
I heard about it in a holistic health for dogs book.
wishing you all the best.


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## woogyboogy

pineconeforestGSD said:


> I have used CALENDULA cream for similar situation and had great success.
> I heard about it in a holistic health for dogs book.
> wishing you all the best.


Is this an oral treatment? I've never heard of it before, I will have to do some research. Also thank you for the support!


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## LisaT

Calendula wouldn't be powerful enough, it's a topical, though I think marigold is taken internally sometimes.....

Best of luck for tomorrow!


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## CindyMDBecker

Good luck today! I'll be thinking of you all (non-stop). Fingers crossed (tight). Hoping for the miracle of all miracles.


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## woogyboogy

*UPDATE:*

We just got back from the Ultrasound and there were absolutely NO signs of any GI Pythium!!! So this is great news, we can rule out anything internal.

Also, I talked to our Vet and told her what I had discovered about Dr. Grooters, and she informed me that Dr. Grooters told her that she is still going to look at the slides and determine if it is Pythium, or something else...which totally stresses, and confuses us. 

She could easily manipulate us and come back and say that it isn't Pythium, and then try to get us to follow her regime.


ALSO, a very scary story to tell that happened this morning. My girlfriend keeps our house immaculate, she cleans it literally three times a week. Anyways, I woke up this morning, and felt something crawling on my hand, and it was a tick!!! I took a picture of it, it was NOT full of blood, and I did end up killing it. We searched Loki for a good 30 minutes and didn't find anything...but we are very worried about that now because he is on NO tick and flea medication. I also haven't taken him in ANY woods within the last 2 1/2 months...:headbang:


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## Jax08

Is his incision healed? If so, put some on him. They can pick ticks up right in the yard and off landscaping bushes.


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## Lilie

Jax08 said:


> Is his incision healed? If so, put some on him. They can pick ticks up right in the yard and off landscaping bushes.


...and squirrels and rodents and neighborhood cats and birds....


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## woogyboogy

Our vet recommended that he go on Nexgard. He is currently on Heartguard for his Heartworm prevention. What do you guys think about this?

Jax, his incision is not fully healed yet, so we are refraining from using any topical treatments.


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## Jax08

Lilie said:


> ...and squirrels and rodents and neighborhood cats and birds....


...and even his people... :crazy:


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## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Our vet recommended that he go on Nexgard. He is currently on Heartguard for his Heartworm prevention. What do you guys think about this?
> 
> Jax, his incision is not fully healed yet, so we are refraining from using any topical treatments.


I like nexgard.


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## CindyMDBecker

That is great news! As for the tick ... ewwww. Hate those things. I would check Loki over EVERY single time he comes in from outside and periodically throughout the day. Can your vet send the slides to a NEUTRAL specialist ... say, like Cornell University? I really hope Loki is going to be ok.  So sorry you have to be put through this.


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## carmspack

kept bugging me , pythium, knew I knew it from some where but it has been so long and pushed back into the old memory bank.

pythium , would this be the same fungas that is responsible for root rot, damping off (sprouting seeds that are too moist) _Pythium blight (a particularly devestating disease)_
​ ​ conditions , warm, wet , humid , poor drainage - monoculture - so your dog does not need to go into a pond to be exposed.​ ​ what are your lawns like?​


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## woogyboogy

CindyMDBecker said:


> That is great news! As for the tick ... ewwww. Hate those things. I would check Loki over EVERY single time he comes in from outside and periodically throughout the day. Can your vet send the slides to a NEUTRAL specialist ... say, like Cornell University? I really hope Loki is going to be ok.  So sorry you have to be put through this.


Thank you so much, and definitely a good idea that I had not thought about. Sending the slides to a neutral vet seems like a very good option. Not sure how that will work though because Dr. Grooters received the slides today.

Thank you so much for the support!!!


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## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> kept bugging me , pythium, knew I knew it from some where but it has been so long and pushed back into the old memory bank.
> 
> pythium , would this be the same fungas that is responsible for root rot, damping off (sprouting seeds that are too moist) _Pythium blight (a particularly devestating disease)_
> ​ ​ conditions , warm, wet , humid , poor drainage - monoculture - so your dog does not need to go into a pond to be exposed.​ ​ what are your lawns like?​


Pythium isn't a fungus, so no it can't be.


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## carmspack

look, I know people think I am cuckoo -- I tend to think outside the box. We all really really need to be sensitive to environmental damage because we are painting ourselves into corners that we can't get out of. 
Those in research look farther afield. 

quote "*Pythium* is a genus of parasitic oomycotes. Most species are plant parasites, but _Pythium insidiosum_ is an important pathogen of animals. They were formerly classified as fungi; the feet of the fungus gnat are frequently a vector for their transmission"

apparently there are several species Pythium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

how does an oomycote minding it's own business in a stagnant pond glom onto a mammal and start to colonize and cause havoc. 

ask your vet .

look at your total environment


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## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> look, I know people think I am cuckoo -- I tend to think outside the box. We all really really need to be sensitive to environmental damage because we are painting ourselves into corners that we can't get out of.
> Those in research look farther afield.
> 
> quote "*Pythium* is a genus of parasitic oomycotes. Most species are plant parasites, but _Pythium insidiosum_ is an important pathogen of animals. They were formerly classified as fungi; the feet of the fungus gnat are frequently a vector for their transmission"
> 
> apparently there are several species Pythium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> how does an oomycote minding it's own business in a stagnant pond glom onto a mammal and start to colonize and cause havoc.
> 
> ask your vet .
> 
> look at your total environment


*This is from a very recent article I cam across that will perfectly answer your question.*

Pythium gets under the skin and it immediately spits an enzyme to start the rotting process around itself creating the sore that will not heal, feeds on the little rot it creates, and starts to grow. In just a day, you can see the sore but not the organism. Then, it creates a wall around itself called a KUNKER, and it grows inside of it. When it needs to move, it opens one end of the kunker like a trap door, spits the enzymes, shuts the door and waits for the rot to continue, then feeds on it. As the Pythium grows, the Kunker grows and borrows deeper into the tissue of the animal.

A few things happen at this stage of new invading Pythium. The host animal produces from it's immune system to fight off the invasion and an animal with a strong and normal Immune system can handle the invasion, produce anti-bodies for infection quickly, the pythium dies or just leaves the host animal.

After the entrance, spitting and rot, it eats. It gorges itself, and when filled it needs the protective shell the Kunker, to go back into. This Kunker has a mouth and tight door to open and close, it opens to spit, retracts and waits. The outer shell forms spikes to grip tissue. With the spikes it sticks in tissue and holds on then proceeds to make tunnels to travel in made of the same hard shell. In the tunnels are the enzymes for rotting and new Pythium it intends to release into rotten tissue, thus the rapid spreading. New Pythium hatch, and the process and infestation continues as it breeds and makes food for the new ones. These connecting tunnels can not be broken, they are smaller then the Kunker itself, or the new young pythium will be released into the surrounding tissue. Now the original home base Pythium has to grow larger to breed, make rot and GET AIR.


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## Oliver'smom

*Great news on the Ultrasound!*

Hey that is awesome news on the ultrasound results!! Sound like a little celebration is in order tonight. If you weren't all the way across the country, we would have a BBQ and beer on the patio tonight and the dogs would get knuckle bones in celebration of good news. Gotta celebrate the bright spots when you get them. 

Your description to carmspack on how the pythium works is super scary. You have totally changed how I view all water Ollie drinks and swims in. 

We don't really have a tick or flea problem here (super dry climate) so I don't have any advice, but there must be something you can do that won't interfere with the healing wound. What does your Vet say to do?


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## Moriah

woogyboogy said:


> *This is from a very recent article I cam across that will perfectly answer your question.*
> 
> Pythium gets under the skin and it immediately spits an enzyme to start the rotting process around itself creating the sore that will not heal, feeds on the little rot it creates, and starts to grow. In just a day, you can see the sore but not the organism. Then, it creates a wall around itself called a KUNKER, and it grows inside of it. When it needs to move, it opens one end of the kunker like a trap door, spits the enzymes, shuts the door and waits for the rot to continue, then feeds on it. As the Pythium grows, the Kunker grows and borrows deeper into the tissue of the animal.
> 
> A few things happen at this stage of new invading Pythium. The host animal produces from it's immune system to fight off the invasion and an animal with a strong and normal Immune system can handle the invasion, produce anti-bodies for infection quickly, the pythium dies or just leaves the host animal.
> 
> After the entrance, spitting and rot, it eats. It gorges itself, and when filled it needs the protective shell the Kunker, to go back into. This Kunker has a mouth and tight door to open and close, it opens to spit, retracts and waits. The outer shell forms spikes to grip tissue. With the spikes it sticks in tissue and holds on then proceeds to make tunnels to travel in made of the same hard shell. In the tunnels are the enzymes for rotting and new Pythium it intends to release into rotten tissue, thus the rapid spreading. New Pythium hatch, and the process and infestation continues as it breeds and makes food for the new ones. These connecting tunnels can not be broken, they are smaller then the Kunker itself, or the new young pythium will be released into the surrounding tissue. Now the original home base Pythium has to grow larger to breed, make rot and GET AIR.


Sounds like something from a science fiction space movie!! Who knew!!! Please know I continue to send positive energy your way and follow this thread closely. Your boy is soooo fortunate to have you. You are amazing in how you have handled this!!


----------



## woogyboogy

Oliver'smom said:


> Hey that is awesome news on the ultrasound results!! Sound like a little celebration is in order tonight. If you weren't all the way across the country, we would have a BBQ and beer on the patio tonight and the dogs would get knuckle bones in celebration of good news. Gotta celebrate the bright spots when you get them.
> 
> Your description to carmspack on how the pythium works is super scary. You have totally changed how I view all water Ollie drinks and swims in.
> 
> We don't really have a tick or flea problem here (super dry climate) so I don't have any advice, but there must be something you can do that won't interfere with the healing wound. What does your Vet say to do?


Thank you so much!!! I totally agree, if you were close by our dogs would be running around chasing each other having a great time! We are definitely thankful of the Ultrasound results and are very relieved. 

Yeah how Pythium works is very scary...it has definitely changed our views on ponds and water in general.

But as far as the Ticks and Fleas go, I think we are going to start him on Nexgaurd, and continue with him on the Heartguard. Hopefully that will help.

Thanks again for the support!!!


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## woogyboogy

Moriah said:


> Sounds like something from a science fiction space movie!! Who knew!!! Please know I continue to send positive energy your way and follow this thread closely. Your boy is soooo fortunate to have you. You are amazing in how you have handled this!!


Yeah it definitely blew my mind when I read about how it works...very scary stuff.

Thank you so much for those kind words, I appreciate it!


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## Allie512

Great news for Loki and for you. As to the ticks, when I lived in Miami and we kept our rather small house with all tile floors very clean. We lived there for some years and never had ticks after treating the 1/2 acre we lived on with beneficial nematodes, removing banana plants, etc. In 2005, my Sunny was very ill - she had a malignancy and it required two surgeries. One morning I woke up to a large tick climbing up the wall of my bedroom. Upon further examination, there were ticks on Sunny and Murphy. We threw out the bedding, had the house fogged and took the dogs to the vet, where the ticks were physically removed, etc. My vet told me that when a dog is ill or weak, they can easily pick up a tick. I do not know if that is true, but we managed to get the house free of ticks as well as the dogs. I believe we also treated the yard. It was very distressing and the last thing we needed with Sunny being so ill. I wanted to pass this on to you because I know how stressful it is to find a tick in the house or on you. Take care, you are not alone as the 77 pages in this forum indicate. 
BTW - the above research was incredibly interesting. Loki may well save a lot of dogs lives with his pioneer research.


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## David Winners

Several on the forum, including myself, use Springtime garlic for flea and tick prevention. You may look into it. Jocoyn has a thread on her garlic journey. I'll look it up when I'm on my computer if you haven't found it by then. 

David Winners


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## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> *UPDATE:*
> 
> We just got back from the Ultrasound and there were absolutely NO signs of any GI Pythium!!! So this is great news, we can rule out anything internal.
> 
> Also, I talked to our Vet and told her what I had discovered about Dr. Grooters, and she informed me that Dr. Grooters told her that she is still going to look at the slides and determine if it is Pythium, or something else...which totally stresses, and confuses us.
> 
> She could easily manipulate us and come back and say that it isn't Pythium, and then try to get us to follow her regime.


This is great news  Did you ask about the need for xrays, since it seems that is how the cutaneous stuff spreads?

What a huge relief, and I think now you just hope the vaccine is doing its magic. If you try the Springtime for the ticks, the garlic may help fighting the pythium.

From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with 

As for the controversy between Glass and Grooters. Somewhere in the middle, there is the "real" story, which we will never know. Because they disagree, and because Glass has a vaccine that is somewhat effective, that does not mean that Grooters doesn't know what she is talking about. We see a lot of this controversy in some of the differences between tick disease labs and tests, and you'll see it in the controversy surrounding the test for GSD DM.


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## Linda1270

So happy to hear that the ultrasound showed no signs of GI Pythium, what great news, especially after hearing what Dr. Grooters told your vet. Boy talk about a roller coaster ride!

Sending lots of healing vibes Loki's way and hope that this will all be a distant memory soon.


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## carmspack

holy cow ! Vampire Fungus: Natural cure for nail fungus, athlete’s Foot, ringworm and jock itch

more on this --

exactly ! quote LisaT 
"From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with










Anyone who has set out trays of seedlings is familiar with damping off , or the product Damp-off http://www.canadiangardening.com/how-to/seeds/how-to-prevent-damping-off/a/20669

quote "Disease is most severe under wet and warm conditions, and disease abatement is associated with cooler drier weather. However, investigators are expecting the range of this pathogen in the northern hemisphere to extend further north in response to global climate changes"

these "things" , organisms , are present in the soil at all time. 
The particular one, pythium species, thrives in cool, moist conditions.
That definitely can be a worry to my location lately. We have had below seasonal temperatures "cool" and wet like you can not imagine. Just yesterday afternoon we were hit with as much rainfall as in a two month period . And, it rained in walls of water three times that day . And , it rained in similar fashion two and three days before that . One day of sunshine !
Soil past the saturation point. Folks in Burlington yesterday Burlington flood: 2 months worth of rain falls within hours - Latest Hamilton news - CBC Hamilton

I am sure there will be lots of problems with spores, fungus, molds especially.

As a young person I did some studies in landscape/horticulture and did some practical work in a city run display greenhouse . Pythium did ring a bell , but never heard or experienced it in the animal kingdom before so hearing of a canine with it was quite the eye opener .

thinking outside the box , though , instead of battling the problem you have to change the terrain. You have to make the (potential) host unattractive , through strength and immune health. That goes for turf management . Instead of bombing the area with fungicides , feed the soil so that the grasses aren't stressed and inviting. Phosphorous deficient plants are more susceptible to diseases.
Even Pasteur relented and said it wasn't the bacteria or the germ , it was the terrain. 
Don't want to stray to much into something esoteric but all things relate . We really need to change how we look at things . 

Why this dog. What was the weakness that made him attractive ? Build the dog own defence systems. 
Not to replace the critical or acute care he is receiving but as a support to enhance the dogs own immune responses.


----------



## Shade

I'm very happy about the news from the ultrasound and send well wishes for continued speedy healing for your boy  What a story


----------



## woogyboogy

Allie512 said:


> Great news for Loki and for you. As to the ticks, when I lived in Miami and we kept our rather small house with all tile floors very clean. We lived there for some years and never had ticks after treating the 1/2 acre we lived on with beneficial nematodes, removing banana plants, etc. In 2005, my Sunny was very ill - she had a malignancy and it required two surgeries. One morning I woke up to a large tick climbing up the wall of my bedroom. Upon further examination, there were ticks on Sunny and Murphy. We threw out the bedding, had the house fogged and took the dogs to the vet, where the ticks were physically removed, etc. My vet told me that when a dog is ill or weak, they can easily pick up a tick. I do not know if that is true, but we managed to get the house free of ticks as well as the dogs. I believe we also treated the yard. It was very distressing and the last thing we needed with Sunny being so ill. I wanted to pass this on to you because I know how stressful it is to find a tick in the house or on you. Take care, you are not alone as the 77 pages in this forum indicate.
> BTW - the above research was incredibly interesting. Loki may well save a lot of dogs lives with his pioneer research.


Thank you so much for the support. We have yet to find any more ticks in our house, and still none on Loki, so that's a good thing.


----------



## woogyboogy

David Winners said:


> Several on the forum, including myself, use Springtime garlic for flea and tick prevention. You may look into it. Jocoyn has a thread on her garlic journey. I'll look it up when I'm on my computer if you haven't found it by then.
> 
> David Winners


Yeah a couple people mentioned it earlier, I'm probably going to purchase it tonight, thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> This is great news  Did you ask about the need for xrays, since it seems that is how the cutaneous stuff spreads?
> 
> What a huge relief, and I think now you just hope the vaccine is doing its magic. If you try the Springtime for the ticks, the garlic may help fighting the pythium.
> 
> From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with
> 
> As for the controversy between Glass and Grooters. Somewhere in the middle, there is the "real" story, which we will never know. Because they disagree, and because Glass has a vaccine that is somewhat effective, that does not mean that Grooters doesn't know what she is talking about. We see a lot of this controversy in some of the differences between tick disease labs and tests, and you'll see it in the controversy surrounding the test for GSD DM.


Thanks Lisa! The Vet that did the Ultrasound said that the only way an Xray would be necessary was if the wound hadn't been removed for a while. But since the wound was removed rather quickly, she said there's no way it could have spread that fast.

I'm heavily contemplating the Springtime Garlic, I just want to talk to our Vet about it first.

I agree that there lies a nuetral ground with Glass and Grooters, but I'm not trying to discover it. Bob Glass has had way more positive cases that Grooters. Not saying that Grooters doesn't know what she is doing, but Bob Glass' methods have worked a lot more.


----------



## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> So happy to hear that the ultrasound showed no signs of GI Pythium, what great news, especially after hearing what Dr. Grooters told your vet. Boy talk about a roller coaster ride!
> 
> Sending lots of healing vibes Loki's way and hope that this will all be a distant memory soon.


Thank you for the support! And you said it...what a roller coaster!!!:crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> holy cow ! Vampire Fungus: Natural cure for nail fungus, athlete’s Foot, ringworm and jock itch
> 
> more on this --
> 
> exactly ! quote LisaT
> "From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who has set out trays of seedlings is familiar with damping off , or the product Damp-off http://www.canadiangardening.com/how-to/seeds/how-to-prevent-damping-off/a/20669
> 
> quote "Disease is most severe under wet and warm conditions, and disease abatement is associated with cooler drier weather. However, investigators are expecting the range of this pathogen in the northern hemisphere to extend further north in response to global climate changes"
> 
> these "things" , organisms , are present in the soil at all time.
> The particular one, pythium species, thrives in cool, moist conditions.
> That definitely can be a worry to my location lately. We have had below seasonal temperatures "cool" and wet like you can not imagine. Just yesterday afternoon we were hit with as much rainfall as in a two month period . And, it rained in walls of water three times that day . And , it rained in similar fashion two and three days before that . One day of sunshine !
> Soil past the saturation point. Folks in Burlington yesterday Burlington flood: 2 months worth of rain falls within hours - Latest Hamilton news - CBC Hamilton
> 
> I am sure there will be lots of problems with spores, fungus, molds especially.
> 
> As a young person I did some studies in landscape/horticulture and did some practical work in a city run display greenhouse . Pythium did ring a bell , but never heard or experienced it in the animal kingdom before so hearing of a canine with it was quite the eye opener .
> 
> thinking outside the box , though , instead of battling the problem you have to change the terrain. You have to make the (potential) host unattractive , through strength and immune health. That goes for turf management . Instead of bombing the area with fungicides , feed the soil so that the grasses aren't stressed and inviting. Phosphorous deficient plants are more susceptible to diseases.
> Even Pasteur relented and said it wasn't the bacteria or the germ , it was the terrain.
> Don't want to stray to much into something esoteric but all things relate . We really need to change how we look at things .
> 
> Why this dog. What was the weakness that made him attractive ? Build the dog own defence systems.
> Not to replace the critical or acute care he is receiving but as a support to enhance the dogs own immune responses.


Carmspack, your posts are always so thoroughly detailed opcorn: Sometimes I have to read them 3 or 4 times

We are 99.9% positive he contracted the Pythium from the stagnant pond he swam in at around 4 months. I'm still trying to figure out how to send a sample of the water off for testing, but I should know by tomorrow.

Also, you ask why this dog? Why Loki? Well, the main reasons some dogs cannot battle Pythium is because their immune system is to weak. In our case, Loki was only 4 months old, so his immune system was very weak, and still trying to strengthen.


----------



## woogyboogy

Shade said:


> I'm very happy about the news from the ultrasound and send well wishes for continued speedy healing for your boy  What a story


Thank you so much for the support, we are very relieved, and it is quite the story for us being first time dog owners


----------



## carmspack

well it certainly was a learning experience for me to see that animals , mammals at least can be hosts to these things. Hope I never experience it personally.


----------



## Loneforce

I am glad things are looking up for your boy. He is lucky to have you as an owner. Years down the road you will be telling people what all this boy went through and how lucky you were to have each other. :thumbup:


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> well it certainly was a learning experience for me to see that animals , mammals at least can be hosts to these things. Hope I never experience it personally.


I know we were totally shocked by that too. I hope that no one ever has to experience it!!!

But if they do, I can be of some minor help.:wild:

Thank you for the support Carmspack!


----------



## woogyboogy

Loneforce said:


> I am glad things are looking up for your boy. He is lucky to have you as an owner. Years down the road you will be telling people what all this boy went through and how lucky you were to have each other. :thumbup:


Thank you so much for the support! I can't wait to tell that story!


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Also, you ask why this dog? Why Loki? Well, the main reasons some dogs cannot battle Pythium is because their immune system is to weak. In our case, Loki was only 4 months old, so his immune system was very weak, and still trying to strengthen.


Down the road, you might want to have his IgA tested, if there are any other issues here and there. But with him being so young, I'm also guessing it's a matter of youth here.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Thanks Lisa! The Vet that did the Ultrasound said that the only way an Xray would be necessary was if the wound hadn't been removed for a while. But since the wound was removed rather quickly, she said there's no way it could have spread that fast.
> 
> I'm heavily contemplating the Springtime Garlic, I just want to talk to our Vet about it first.
> 
> I agree that there lies a nuetral ground with Glass and Grooters, but I'm not trying to discover it. Bob Glass has had way more positive cases that Grooters. Not saying that Grooters doesn't know what she is doing, but Bob Glass' methods have worked a lot more.


Good to hear about the bone!

I definitely agree with you about the numbers - definitely you've chosen the right path through this.

Not sure your vet will be all that familiar with the Bug-Off and its use....


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Good to hear about the bone!
> 
> I definitely agree with you about the numbers - definitely you've chosen the right path through this.
> 
> Not sure your vet will be all that familiar with the Bug-Off and its use....


When you mentioned the Immunoglobulin A test, do you think it is beneficial for his levels to be giving him probiotics every day with yogurt. We've been doing this for about 3-4 weeks now.

Thank you for the support, I plan on buying the Garlic, it's just that money is rather tight :headbang:. But if it works just as good as nexgard then I may consider it more because its definitely cheaper.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> When you mentioned the Immunoglobulin A test, do you think it is beneficial for his levels to be giving him probiotics every day with yogurt. We've been doing this for about 3-4 weeks now.
> 
> Thank you for the support, I plan on buying the Garlic, it's just that money is rather tight :headbang:. But if it works just as good as nexgard then I may consider it more because its definitely cheaper.


I definitely think that the probiotics are a good things, as long as he is doing well on them. They do all sorts of things, and should help with immunity, as well as supporting the gut, and GSDs in general can use the gut support 

I hear you about the cost and your million dollar boy :wub:.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I definitely think that the probiotics are a good things, as long as he is doing well on them. They do all sorts of things, and should help with immunity, as well as supporting the gut, and GSDs in general can use the gut support
> 
> I hear you about the cost and your million dollar boy :wub:.


Yeah he is doing really well with the probiotics and yogurt. Not once through all of this, has he lost his appetite. He is always a very hungry boy! We are going to continue with the Probiotic and yogurt unless we see a side effect.

Thank you for the support, and yes...million dollar boy is right haha


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone,

Loki is being his normal self, no signs of anything abnormal. He will receive his 3rd immunotherapy shot a week from tomorrow. However, after talking to Bob Glass, and several others who have experienced Pythiosis before, it is to our advantage to start a 2nd round of the (3) shot immunotherapy, 2 weeks after his final shot of the first round.

Also, I'm still trying to figure out how to get the Pond water tested, but am having no luck...I've literally been on the phone with over 6 different people, and they all tell me they don't do it. The University of Florida used to do it, but apparently they no longer do...We just want to know for a piece of mind.

Of course I will keep everyone updated!

Thanks for all the support!


----------



## Jax08

Doesn't Bob Glass have any suggestions on that?


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> Doesn't Bob Glass have any suggestions on that?


I honestly somehow forgot to ask him yesterday when I talked to him:headbang:, and he was in the lab all day today, so I didn't want to call him and bug him. But I sent him an email, just waiting to hear from him about it.


----------



## Juliem24

I am thoroughly impressed by the way you've navigated this mess with your guy Loki. You've managed to remain calm and do thorough research, much to Loki's benefit. Hoping for the best. We went through a somewhat similar thing with one of our dogs, when he contracted what was thought to be a fungal infection from digging in dirt. It's difficult, especially when you have to navigate and learn so much. More power to you!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

glad he is doing well, re: the testing of the pond water...Try a local pool place or you should have businesses that test well water.


----------



## ugavet2012

Saw something on VIN today about 2 cases of cutaneous pythiosis confirmed by multiple tests in Wisconsin.


----------



## Jax08

As far north as Wisconsin???!! I'm getting a pool. If that stuff can survive Wisconsin winters then the rest of us have no chance of it being killed off.


----------



## ugavet2012

I know. 3 out of 4 of mine LOVE swimming and fetching toys from water; they got totally nuts. I wanted a farm with a pond for them so bad. Now I think I'll just save my $ for a while and get a pool too.


----------



## carmspack

someone should ask around the lab and golden retrievers , hunting poodles who do water retrieves if they are experiencing problems.


----------



## Lilie

woogyboogy said:


> Also, I'm still trying to figure out how to get the Pond water tested, but am having no luck...I've literally been on the phone with over 6 different people, and they all tell me they don't do it. The University of Florida used to do it, but apparently they no longer do...We just want to know for a piece of mind.
> 
> Of course I will keep everyone updated!
> 
> Thanks for all the support!


We went through our specific county Extension Office. We also spoke to a local Pool service who could send off samples to their lab for testing. It is a little pricey - but to me, worth it.


----------



## woogyboogy

Juliem24 said:


> I am thoroughly impressed by the way you've navigated this mess with your guy Loki. You've managed to remain calm and do thorough research, much to Loki's benefit. Hoping for the best. We went through a somewhat similar thing with one of our dogs, when he contracted what was thought to be a fungal infection from digging in dirt. It's difficult, especially when you have to navigate and learn so much. More power to you!



Thank you so much for the support! It has been extremely difficult, but thanks to everyone here, we have been able to get to were we are now!


----------



## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> glad he is doing well, re: the testing of the pond water...Try a local pool place or you should have businesses that test well water.


I called one of the well companies here and they do not test for Pythiosis...I haven't called any Pool places yet...that could be worth a shot.

Bob Glass responded to my email earlier this morning and said,

*"There is no good way to test the water for P. Insidiosum."*


----------



## woogyboogy

ugavet2012 said:


> Saw something on VIN today about 2 cases of cutaneous pythiosis confirmed by multiple tests in Wisconsin.


That is very scary!!! I've read about several cases up north, I think it can thrive anywhere


----------



## woogyboogy

Lilie said:


> We went through our specific county Extension Office. We also spoke to a local Pool service who could send off samples to their lab for testing. It is a little pricey - but to me, worth it.


I did try contacting our County health department and they said they've never done anything like that...? I couldn't believe that.


----------



## woogyboogy

I just discovered this...

DIY Pythium Test Kits - Endeavour Turf Products

Not sure how accurate or what strain of Pythium it tests for. Still doing research on it.


----------



## LisaT

With Glass, sounds like you have a great advisor on the steps to take for his best chances for success. Gald that Loki is doing will with the vaccines. Normally I would be very vaccine shy, and would wonder under what conditions they do two rounds versus one, but this is such a scary fatal disease, I'm sure that this gives Loki every possible chance.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> With Glass, sounds like you have a great advisor on the steps to take for his best chances for success. Gald that Loki is doing will with the vaccines. Normally I would be very vaccine shy, and would wonder under what conditions they do two rounds versus one, but this is such a scary fatal disease, I'm sure that this gives Loki every possible chance.


Thank you Lisa, we feel that Bob Glass is very educated with Pythiosis, and we trust him more than anyone we've come into contact with when it comes to this. I agree with you being vaccine shy, but realistically our options were slim, it was really our only hope.


----------



## carmspack

woogyboogy said:


> I just discovered this...
> 
> DIY Pythium Test Kits - Endeavour Turf Products
> 
> Not sure how accurate or what strain of Pythium it tests for. Still doing research on it.


There you go -- "turf" management.

these things are ever present -- waiting for the opportune moment -- when something is stressed , ideal conditions to grab a foothold


----------



## carmspack

a good read -- "Teaming with Microbes"

because dirt is not inert but teeming with life forms , bizarre , but necessary . Same as the micro universe of living microbes on our skin. All have a purpose and a balance.


----------



## canyadoit

Kinda appears to be a sebaceous cyst to myself. My one female gets these , she has one on her neck. Once they rupture they can be a challenge. Dose it discharge fluid and a pasty thick substance Off white in in appearance ?


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> a good read -- "Teaming with Microbes"
> 
> because dirt is not inert but teeming with life forms , bizarre , but necessary . Same as the micro universe of living microbes on our skin. All have a purpose and a balance.
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1604691131/ref=pe_606080_122201890_em_1p_4_im


Thanks for the recommendation, I will check it out!


----------



## woogyboogy

canyadoit said:


> Kinda appears to be a sebaceous cyst to myself. My one female gets these , she has one on her neck. Once they rupture they can be a challenge. Dose it discharge fluid and a pasty thick substance Off white in in appearance ?


I guess you missed out on 99% of the thread haha:smirk:...It has been confirmed to be Pythiosis.


----------



## canyadoit

Swap cancer to bad.


----------



## GatorBytes

canyadoit said:


> Swap cancer to bad.


 Huh?:thinking:


----------



## lalachka

Xxx


----------



## canyadoit

That is what I know it as Saw it in Florida when I was into horses Instead of hu try looking it up


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, just wanted to give a quick update.

Our Vet called us today, and said they she spoke with Dr. Grooters late yesterday about Loki's histopath slides. Dr. Grooters said that it definitely looked like Pythiosis, and then she began to say how we needed to get started on her treatment methods right away. Which our Vet looked into, and lets just say it isn't cheap. Either way, we are relieved that Dr. Grooters, and Bob Glass (Both very well educated on Pythiosis) both agreed that it looked like Pythiosis.

Needless to say, we are not going to even consider her options. We are sticking to our gut, and going to go with what we believe it the best hope for Loki. 

Loki is going on Friday for his 3rd immunotherapy shot, but we will be starting him on a second round 2 weeks after. Bob Glass said that it is a good idea, and helps "mop" away what the first round missed.

I will keep everyone updated like usual.

Thanks again for all the assistance!


----------



## Moriah

Thanks for the update!!


----------



## woogyboogy

Moriah said:


> Thanks for the update!!


No Thank you!!!


----------



## carmspack

Teaming with Microbes won't give you a direct answer , it is after all a book about soil and horticulture . However, whether reading about Pasteur and his rivals Bernard and Bechamp, or more recent rethinking on probiotics , or the horticultural book , or the thread about the vet-baffling skin problem , it comes down to a weakness in the system which has , as the "Microbes" book said , allowed a mafia of pathogens to prosper . The answer is about the terrain, the environment , whether stable and resistant , or destabilized and vulnerable.

So how does one out compete ?

If it were intestinal antibiotic caused unbalance the answer would be probiotics to establish a beneficial stabilized gut flora .
If it were stressed grasses , plants, chance the environment , the pH , the nutrition of the soil - feed the soil , not the plant .
If it were insects feed the soil, to feed the plant . In a companion book to "Microbes" "Teaming with Nutrients" there is proof that strong healthy plants resist aphids and slugs and pests.
Strong healthy trees do not attract fungus and so on.



I wondered about the exposure and resistance (or not) that working field Labs, retrievers and poodles would experience . Came across this information packed forum/site Please participate in New Pythiosis Study!!!!

some information might surprise you. Dogs with exposure indicated by antibodies , that are well and healthy . 

Bob Glass is or was (older site) a participant - quote from the site 

"Hello, I am Bob Glass, the owner of Pan American Vet Labs. With Tammy's help we are conducting the study which is the subject of this discussion. I will try to answer some of the questions from this thread:

First let me say that Tammy has done a great job in answering your questions and I can't add a lot to most of what she has posted. 

The study: 
We will try to test a minimum of 200 Retriever breed dogs who active in hunting/filed trials. These dogs are more likely to be exposed to Pythium than "house" or "lap" dogs and should give us more information. 
Animals that are infected with Pythium develop antibodies and we think animals that come in contct with Pythim but do not develop an enduring infection will also develop antidoies to the organism. The initial test for anti Pythium antibodies will be an "ELISA" test done at our lab in Hutto, Tx. This is a very sensitive test that was developed at our lab with input from Dr. Leo Mendoza at Michagan State Un. (MSU) and researchers from the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta GA. Samples that warrant further study (ie test positive) will go to MSU to Dr. Mendoza's lab for Western Blot anaylysis to further characterize the antibodies of interest. 
We hope to answer several questions with the data from this study and with the limited data (35 samples) that we so far we are asking even more questions.
1. Are dogs whom frequently have contact with "dirty" water more likely to have antibodiy to Pythium?
2. Are there geographic areas that pose a higher risk of exposure to Pythium?
3. Can we correlate presence of antibody with a history of transient/mild symptoms of Pythium infection?
4. Is the antibody in "exposed but not ill" dogs significantly different from the antibody in infected dogs?
5. Is the antibody in "exposed but not ill" dogs protective against future Pythium infections?
5. Does the antibody in "exposed but not ill" (EBNI) dogs offer a clue in the development of a vaccine which will prevent Pythium infection?

As you can see we have more questions than answers, but we are excited about the "answers" that this study may bring.


We do not think that Pythium infection is genetically related. While it is true that some breeds/blood lines have a "weaker" immune system this is not specific for Pythium infection but rather for any infectious disease. I also do not think that Pythium infection is an indicator a "weak" immune system.

We do not (yet) know if the antibodies we are seeing in EBNI dogs is protective. We have some data and anecdotal evidence that horses vaccinated with our Pythium Immuntherapy product may be protective for +/-1 year. We do not have enough data to be sure of this "protection" and continue to collect data on this question and we have essentially no data relative to protective antibodies in dogs.

Relative to Pythium in ponds or vegetation near water. It is important to remember that there are several varieties of Pythium but only Pythium insidiosum is known to infect animals. so even if you could look at a plant and see the Pythium (which you can't) you could not tell if it was P. insidiosum or another Pythium. There is a test for Pythium in plants/water available from Neogen Corp's European Office. Unfortunaly this test does not differentiate between P. insidiosum and other Pythiums.

I hope this answers some of your questions but please feel free to post any questions here or send to me direct by email. I apologize for missing some telephone calls, I have several facilties at different sites and am on the move most all the time. I can usually be reached in my office between 7 and 9 AM and if I am not in the office the phone should ring through to my cell. I check my email frequently throughout the day and will answer any questions as quickly as possible. 

I encourage every one to think seriously about particiapating in the study. With your help we hope to be able to make important and lifesaving progress in develoing the tools to fight this disease.

Bglass


----------



## carmspack

getting more esoteric --- If I were to have a line of questioning , my mentors would fire back a question for me to go hunt search for answers --- Socratic method of learning and teaching . Although, I sneakily suspect they don't have answers either and so are interested to see what I may find -- . The last one I had I was sent to look into pleomorphism , the ability of bacterial organisms to adapt to their environment by changing (pleo or plastic) bodies (morph) . 
Always the environment or the terrain .


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Hey everyone, just wanted to give a quick update.
> 
> Our Vet called us today, and said they she spoke with Dr. Grooters late yesterday about Loki's histopath slides. Dr. Grooters said that it definitely looked like Pythiosis, and then she began to say how we needed to get started on her treatment methods right away. Which our Vet looked into, and lets just say it isn't cheap. Either way, we are relieved that Dr. Grooters, and Bob Glass (Both very well educated on Pythiosis) both agreed that it looked like Pythiosis.
> 
> Needless to say, we are not going to even consider her options. We are sticking to our gut, and going to go with what we believe it the best hope for Loki.
> 
> Loki is going on Friday for his 3rd immunotherapy shot, but we will be starting him on a second round 2 weeks after. Bob Glass said that it is a good idea, and helps "mop" away what the first round missed.


I think it's great that you have further confirmation about the Pythiosis. It's really nice to have a diagnosis that you can hang your hat on. Even if the other treatment is expensive, to me, the success rate is the real clincher (as I think it is for you too). 

I was (and still am) critical of your old vet, but it sounds like he did a good job cleaning out the wound, and that is giving Loki a good shot here. 

Good luck with the shot tomorrow! Keep a watch on all the shots in case you start seeing more of a reaction (that's just me being paranoid about vaccinations).


----------



## woogyboogy

Thanks Lisa, and Carmspack.

We got the 3rd immunotherapy shot yesterday, and Loki did really well. No reaction or side effects at all. He is doing fine today and hopefully we can put all of this behind us soon.

We are ordering a 2nd round the the immunotherapy on Monday so that will be another round of 3 shots.

Thank you everyone for the support!


----------



## osito23

Glad to hear that Loki is doing well. You guys have been through so much - I bet you'll be so glad to put this all behind you!


----------



## Jax08

My co-worker in NYS is waiting on test results from Cornell. Young dog's bones are disintegrating. It's either this or bone cancer. His GF, who owns the dog, is devastated. If it's positive that puts this awful stuff in the PA/Ohio/NY area.


----------



## Moriah

Heartbreaking!


----------



## lauren43

Jax08 said:


> My co-worker in NYS is waiting on test results from Cornell. Young dog's bones are disintegrating. It's either this or bone cancer. His GF, who owns the dog, is devastated. If it's positive that puts this awful stuff in the PA/Ohio/NY area.



Are you saying the virus caused cancer? I'm confused.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## woogyboogy

osito23 said:


> Glad to hear that Loki is doing well. You guys have been through so much - I bet you'll be so glad to put this all behind you!


Thank you so much, we are starting to feel somewhat comfortable know that his first round of 3 injections have been finished.



Jax08 said:


> My co-worker in NYS is waiting on test results from Cornell. Young dog's bones are disintegrating. It's either this or bone cancer. His GF, who owns the dog, is devastated. If it's positive that puts this awful stuff in the PA/Ohio/NY area.


I can't believe that! I really hope it comes back negative for Pythiosis, and they can get a proper diagnosis. That is so sad to hear.


----------



## llombardo

lauren43 said:


> Are you saying the virus caused cancer? I'm confused.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This virus is called Swamp Cancer for a reason...


----------



## Jax08

lauren43 said:


> Are you saying the virus caused cancer? I'm confused.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's not a virus? I never said anything about a virus.

And no. I said the vets thought it was either Pythiosis OR bone cancer.


----------



## Jax08

woogyboogy said:


> Thank you so much, we are starting to feel somewhat comfortable know that his first round of 3 injections have been finished.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe that! I really hope it comes back negative for Pythiosis, and they can get a proper diagnosis. That is so sad to hear.


Glad your boy is doing well!!!

Yes, very sad and shocking to hear. He told me the pup had Lyme's when we left last night but that was wrong. I don't think the end diagnosis is going to matter. Neither does my co-worker but they have to wait for the results to come back.


----------



## Jax08

It was bone cancer. They lost him. So sad. Only a year old and one of the top hunting dogs in the nation. Very sad.


----------



## Oliver'smom

Jax08 said:


> It was bone cancer. They lost him. So sad. Only a year old and one of the top hunting dogs in the nation. Very sad.


Bone cancer spreads quickly and totally sucks. Usually by the time you find it, it is way too late. Our previous dog died of bone cancer, we lost him 3 weeks after diagnosis. The pain of the bone cancer is incredible. Not that any doggie disease is fun, but things are particularly difficult when you can't do anything to help with the pain, but say goodbye.


----------



## woogyboogy

I am so sorry to hear that. That is terrible I cannot even imagine having to go through that.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been posting on here as much, now that we feel a little more comfortable with Loki's health, we are spending a lot more time with Loki, and doing things with him that everyone normal puppy should experience.

He is doing really good, his incision looks great, and there are no signs of any returning wound. He is starting to get really feisty, and suddenly has more energy than ever before, but I'm not complaining. 

We started his 2nd round of immunotherapy injections yesterday, which will be another 3 shots, so 6 shots total, and he received his 4th shot yesterday.

He also swam in the pool yesterday, it has been over 3 months since he has been in any type of water, other than a bath haha, and trust me when I say this, he will NEVER be going into any pond every again!

Thank you everyone so much for all of the support and advice, I promise you that when I say we wouldn't be where we are today without you, I mean it!


----------



## ApselBear

Quick question woogsyboogsy. You said the wound looks great so far, does that mean the cut has already grown back together, sealed up well?


----------



## katieliz

great to hear, thanks for the update, think of you often! take care!


----------



## AngelaA6

I've been stalking this thread and didn't have any knowledge to share so just stayed silent but I'm glad he's doing better! Praying for a speedy recovery and for his health  You've done a great job helping your puppy!


----------



## woogyboogy

ApselBear said:


> Quick question woogsyboogsy. You said the wound looks great so far, does that mean the cut has already grown back together, sealed up well?


When I said the wound, I actually meant to say incision, sorry for the confusion haha. The incision is fully healed, and closed. The hair has grown back way faster than we ever expected, however we have had to shave around the incision twice since the surgery, just so we can keep a closer eye on the site.

According to Bob Glass, who has been studying Pythiosis for over 20+ years, he said that if the original wound, (meaning Pythiosis), does not "resurface" at the site of the incision within 30 days of the first immunotherapy shot, which was 7/25, then Loki's chances of survival have almost doubled.

It has been 36 days today from his first immunotherapy injection, and there are no signs of any returning Pythium.:fingerscrossed: So this is great news.


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> great to hear, thanks for the update, think of you often! take care!


Katie, thank you so much for everything you've done, you've been such a great supporter!


----------



## woogyboogy

AngelaA6 said:


> I've been stalking this thread and didn't have any knowledge to share so just stayed silent but I'm glad he's doing better! Praying for a speedy recovery and for his health  You've done a great job helping your puppy!


Thank you so much for the support, We are all just so thankful that things are actually starting to look up for us now, and now we can do the things Loki should experience.


----------



## ApselBear

Ah that's great news! I was just wondering if the cut had closed before you let it get wet, but looks like you've got it all under control. Still sending plenty of positive thoughts your boy's way


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

So glad Loki is feeling so much better.


----------



## woogyboogy

Thank you both for your support and thoughts!!! It means so much to us!


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> .....
> According to Bob Glass, who has been studying Pythiosis for over 20+ years, he said that if the original wound, (meaning Pythiosis), does not "resurface" at the site of the incision within 30 days of the first immunotherapy shot, which was 7/25, then Loki's chances of survival have almost doubled.
> 
> It has been 36 days today from his first immunotherapy injection, and there are no signs of any returning Pythium.:fingerscrossed: So this is great news.


OUTSTANDING!

Very happy to see this


----------



## woogyboogy

Hi everyone, Sorry I'm not on here constantly updating, but fortunately we haven't been having anything to update on, other than GOOD news.

We are going tomorrow for Loki's 5th immunotherapy injection, and he is doing great. No signs of any returning Pythium at the original incision site. His demeanor is great, and we are starting to see a lot more energy from him in these past 4-6 weeks.

He has been scratching alot recently, but I think it may be from going in the pool several times last week, not sure, But I will definitely bring it to our Vets attention.

Thank you everyone for all of the support!!!


----------



## Juliem24

Great news...enjoy the heck out of him!


----------



## Moriah

Such good news! Thank goodness for the professionals that stuck by you. And kudos to you for going the extra mile for your boy


----------



## katieliz

yay loki!!!


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, another update, good, and bad news.

So the good news, Loki received his 5th immunotherapy injection today and only has 1 more left!

The bad news is that he has been scratching a lot the past couple days, and we started noticing some very small bumps here and there on his body all throughout about 2 days ago. Probably at least 10 bumps that we've been able to find. I brought it to our Vets attention today, and she looked at them, (they are very, VERY TINY) and she said they could possibly be allergies. She told us to give him some Benadryl, and if it doesn't get any better within a week, she will put him on an antibiotic, or steroid.

We haven't switched his food at all, he eats Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy food, and has for the past 4 months. 

ALSO, more bad news. Since he's been swimming in the pool, (probably about 6 times in the past 4 weeks) he has developed an ear infection. We already have Zymox at home, so she told us to flush his ears daily for a week, and she gave us this Antibiotic called EnteDerm, it consists of, Nystatin, Neomycin Sulfate, Thiostrepton, Triamcinolone Acetonide.

Can anyone give me any positive info, we just CANNOT seem to catch a break with Loki, it's just one thing after another.


----------



## AngelaA6

I don't have any input but im happy to hear about his recovery. Sorry about the lumps and ear infections. I clean out my dogs ears with coconut oil. Also any time he gets water in his ears I make sure to wipe them out and keep an eye on him for a few days to watch for any discomfort.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## blackshep

Poor Loki! I'm sorry you've got a few more bumps in the road.

It could be enviro allergies, or maybe something from the pool, like bacteria.


----------



## carmspack

personally I would keep him out of chlorinated water -- if the dog loves water that much get him his own kiddie pool to puddle around in and fill it with plain garden hose water.

the reasoning behind this is that possibly the dog's immune system was at a weakened vulnerable state which allowed this entire episode to initiate . 

he is still in recovery , all out of kilter , still needs to re establish a point where he can be in stasis , stable .
His skin is still sensitive .

The chlorine is drying and can cause rashes . 
Chlorine will affect the bacterial level of his skin , both good and necessary and pathogens . 
The ear , I would put in some good coconut oil in to restore the natural oily barrier .

chlorine irritation -- 

pm sent


----------



## woogyboogy

AngelaA6 said:


> I don't have any input but im happy to hear about his recovery. Sorry about the lumps and ear infections. I clean out my dogs ears with coconut oil. Also any time he gets water in his ears I make sure to wipe them out and keep an eye on him for a few days to watch for any discomfort.


Thank you for all of the support!


blackshep said:


> Poor Loki! I'm sorry you've got a few more bumps in the road.
> 
> It could be enviro allergies, or maybe something from the pool, like bacteria.


Thanks, we are considering the allergies a possibility, as well as bacteria. There's always something that could go wrong.:crazy:


carmspack said:


> personally I would keep him out of chlorinated water -- if the dog loves water that much get him his own kiddie pool to puddle around in and fill it with plain garden hose water.
> 
> the reasoning behind this is that possibly the dog's immune system was at a weakened vulnerable state which allowed this entire episode to initiate .
> 
> he is still in recovery , all out of kilter , still needs to re establish a point where he can be in stasis , stable .
> His skin is still sensitive .
> 
> The chlorine is drying and can cause rashes .
> Chlorine will affect the bacterial level of his skin , both good and necessary and pathogens .
> The ear , I would put in some good coconut oil in to restore the natural oily barrier .
> 
> chlorine irritation --
> 
> pm sent


Thank you for the PM carmspack, you are such a wealth of knowledge its incredible. I will message you at some point today hopefully.


----------



## carmspack

for all -- not bacteria in the pool -- chlorine is a drying irritant


----------



## LisaT

I agree with Carmspack about Loki's general health and not having normal defenses, particularly at this point. I would be working on that too.

I sure hope that the itchies aren't an ominous sign - things have been going so well up to now, in the grand scheme of things. I'm glad I checked over here today, I'm not on this forum much.

IIRC, pythiosis tends to shift the body to an allergic state, so the anti-histamines are good in general. The dermatologist that I use prefers benadryl or allegra, though I'm sure dogs will vary in which they respond to the best. I would be very concerned about using a steroid - in terms of pythiosis, to me, that would be used when trying to maintain, not to cure.


----------



## my boy diesel

do not use zymox in conjunction with anything
it says right on the bottle to use only that when you are treating and to use it daily
flushes will inactivate it


----------



## trcy

My GSD loves to swim to. He got a really bad yeast infection in both ears. Ketoseb+PS flush, use gauze to clean the ears out and then apply drops of Mometamax. We also have to keep him out of the pool. 

We treated for two weeks, brought him back for a check up and the gram stain still showed some yeast in his ears. We no have to treat for two more weeks. 

The vet said it's fine for him to swim once the ear infection clears up, but we need to rinse him off with a hose after he swims. We also need to rinse his ears with the Ketoseb+PS once a week once he starts swimming again.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> .....
> 
> So the good news, Loki received his 5th immunotherapy injection today and only has 1 more left!
> 
> The bad news is that he has been scratching a lot the past couple days, and we started noticing some very small bumps here and there on his body all throughout about 2 days ago. Probably at least 10 bumps that we've been able to find. I brought it to our Vets attention today, and she looked at them, (they are very, VERY TINY) and she said they could possibly be allergies. ....


Any update on this? How are things going?


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Any update on this? How are things going?


Hey sorry Lisa, we've been very busy with Loki's training. He is doing really well. His ear infection is almost all healed up, still flushing his ears once a day, as there is still minor yeast in there. But that aside, his incision looks great, no signs of anything abnormal. 

His attitude is great, he is so much more energetic than ever before, and just has such a great demeanor. He continues to eat excellent, however he has started to slow down now. When we put his bowl down, he used to eat all the food within 2 minutes, now he takes his time, and will leave a little bit, and then finish it within 10 minutes or so.

I will take a picture of his incision so you can see what it looks like. His hair has grown back a lot, however I do believe that it isn't fully grown. There is a little bump in his coat where the incision was sort of bunched together, so its pretty visible, but it doesn't bother us at all, that's the very least of our worries haha.

Thanks again for everyone on here, we wouldn't be where we are without all of you!:hugs:


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, another update...

Loki has been having diarrhea for the past 5 days or so, we thought it was just a random act, but he has had it consistently for the past week. 

I took him into the Vet today for his 6th immunotherapy shot and also informed our Vet about the diarrhea issues. She said it could be numerous things that is causing it. But I also talked to Bob Glass earlier today prior to the Vet, and he said that he is nervous that it could be internal Pythium.:headbang:

So I got a sample of his feces, and they will have the results back tomorrow for any parasite, or intestinal infection that would be causing the diarrhea. Bob Glass said that if it comes back negative for anything, than it would be wise to get another Ultrasound done to make sure there is no internal Pythium...

Anyways, our Vet, and I talked about the possibility of his diarrhea being caused by the yogurt we give him with his Probiotics, and also the cheese slices that we've been giving him for the past 2 months with his pills rolled up inside. Not sure if this is a contributing factor, but it could be a possibility. 

Also, he has remained on the same food, never switched. He has started to slow down on his eating, but our Vet and we both agree that it's probably because he is almost reaching his maxed out size, so he is slowing down with his eating habits?


I'm sure I'm leaving some stuff out, but if anyone has any input, I would greatly appreciate it! Thank you all so much!


----------



## AngelaA6

Oh no, I hope it's not the pythium  that'd would suck. Hopefully it's just maybe the yogurt or cheese being too much dairy for him.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, I wish I was here with better news, but after yesterdays Vet visit I really became skeptical that it could be in fact Pythium returning.

So last night my girlfriend, and I checked Loki's incision and 2 inches at the top are completely covered with hair, making it almost impossible to see the skin. So we shaved the hair off the incision, and low and behold... found a small wound...

I'm not trying to jump to conclusions here, but there is a great possibility it could be Pythium returning on the skin. It is about the size of a pinky finger nail, or pea? It is right on the incision, which is the main sign of it coming back. *BUT*, exactly where the small wound is there is a stitch still in his skin. So it could possibly be an infected stitch, and he has been trying to get at it when we aren't looking, and now has made it into a small wound?

This along with his diarrhea has us extremely concerned. Our Vet is on vacation until Monday, and I made an appointment at 2:20pm on Tuesday to see our Vet, but I'm bringing him in to the office tomorrow to have a different Vet look at it and get her opinion.

The area where the wound is, is free of hair, and I've been spraying it religiously with Vetericyn. Also, we've put the cone back on him so he can't lick it.

Bob Glass said that we should measure the wound, take pictures, continue to spray it with Vetericyn and keep the cone on him until Tuesday, and then we can go from there depending on whether its gotten bigger, smaller, or stayed the same. He said that if it doesn't start to heal, the best options would be to have another surgery to remove it...:headbang:, and then start on another round of immunotherapy...

We are still trying to process everything, but we're feeling very defeated, and just complete confusion, we thought we were on the road to recovery.

If anyone can give me some input, that would be great.


----------



## Moriah

Sending you positive thoughts. So sorry to hear of this new situation. Take care.


----------



## llombardo

I think about you guys all the time and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for good news.


----------



## woogyboogy

Moriah said:


> Sending you positive thoughts. So sorry to hear of this new situation. Take care.


Thank you Moriah!



llombardo said:


> I think about you guys all the time and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for good news.


Thank you llombardo!


----------



## woogyboogy

We are feeling very down right now. Hopefully we will find the light at the end of the tunnel. However, we are trying to stay as strong as possible for Loki, and we aren't going to give up!


----------



## Wolfgeist

That's so frustrating... sending positive thoughts your way. Let us know what the vet says!


----------



## woogyboogy

Wild Wolf said:


> That's so frustrating... sending positive thoughts your way. Let us know what the vet says!


Thanks, will do.


----------



## ugavet2012

I am truly very sorry to hear about this. 
You asked my thoughts and what I was going to say I would probably do was what bob glass recommended. I know that really sucks. 
I will pray for Loki and your family.


----------



## jetdog

Really hoping for it to be something minor with Loki, you all have been through so much already...

Fingers and toes crossed for it just being a stitch reaction and maybe coccidia; something easily treatable.


----------



## Oliver'smom

Oh my this is so unfair! You guys worked so hard to get him healthy!

I think you both need to yell and maybe break some dishes, then just starting loving on Loki. Thoughts and prayers from your friends in Utah.


----------



## osito23

I'm so sorry to hear about this.  I think of you guys often and pray for Loki's recovery. In the mean time I would do what Bob Glass recommends. Please let us know what the vet says.


----------



## woogyboogy

I appreciate everyone's support and condolences.

It is so extremely frustrating to know that we have essentially gotten no where as far as recovery in these past 4 months.

Bob Glass' recommendations are to see how the wound progresses with a week. If the Vetericyn starts to heal it, then there's a good chance it isn't the Pythium, and it's an infected stitch or something similar. If the wound doesn't start to heal, then we need to strongly consider a very wide margin surgery...we still haven't figured out how to pay for that but, we will cross that bridge when/if we get there. After surgery, he said to immediately start him on another round of immunotherapy, so this would be his 3rd round, shots 7, 8, and 9. After that, we basically start all over again, continue to watch the incision and make sure there is no returning Pythium.:headbang:


Also, our Vet office got a chance to call our Vet on her personal phone yesterday before she left for vacation, and our Vet said that she thinks we need to consider Dr. Grooters antifungal methods. From all the research I've done, there is very VERY few people who have had success with that. Also, we literally wouldn't even be able to afford that. It's over $600 per month and I think she recommends that he stay on them for over 6 months. Not to mention how damaging the antifungals are to a dogs body, and Loki is only 8 months old. So we are still strongly against this, but we haven't been able to discuss it again with our Vet, but we will on our Tuesday appointment. 

Loki is currently on Metronidazole for his stomach issues, and we have still continued to give him his vitamins every single day twice a day since July 7th. We have done everything possible for him, and I couldn't think of anything that we did wrong or could have done better...It is just very depressing to think about all of it, because I know he doesn't understand, and all we want for him is to just be healthy.

I refuse to give up for Loki, and I will continue to do my best and whatever he needs to make sure he is healthy again, so that he can enjoy a normal life that he should have.

I really appreciate the support, I honestly don't think you guys understand how nice it is to log onto here and see people showing their thoughts, and prayers, it really does make a difference with all of this. I am so thankful for everyone on here.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hello again everyone, I'm here with another update.

I brought Loki into the Vet today and one of the other Vets in the office who has already seen Loki several times checked him out, she gave us her input on what she thinks is going on with this "new" wound.

She was able to remove 3 stitches around the wound so, we are really REALLY hoping that it had something to do with that...:fingerscrossed:

She thinks it is a possibility that the stitches could have caused irritation, and that they should have either been removed or dissolved by now. We are going to continue to keep a very close eye on the wound and see if it is growing.

I measured it last night, it is .5cm long, by .4cm wide.

She prescribed us another pill for his stomach issues...Aminopentamide otherwise known as Centrine. So hopefully with the 2, we can "reset" his stomach and fix his diarrhea issues.

Also, she recommended switching his food to see if his diarrhea issues could be caused by that. So I'm going to look around online and see what is a good option for dogs with digestion issues? Right now its between Taste of the Wild, and Fromm. But I still need more time to research. I plan on starting another thread about opinions on food, even though I know it is highly controversial, and is different for each dog.

Thanks everyone, and it looks like I'll be here updating daily again.:hammer:


----------



## katieliz

oh man, i am SO sorry...thinking of you and hoping this is just a temporary setback and not serious. your dedication to your boy's well-being and your perseverence is quite amazing. take care, i will check back. stay strong!


----------



## katieliz

about the food...research breeder's choice pinnacle trout and sweet potato (tho they have many different varieties of pinnacle). for kibble, it's really a great food...very high quality, no recalls...small tootsie roll poops and no body odor. a terrific food.


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> about the food...research breeder's choice pinnacle trout and sweet potato (tho they have many different varieties of pinnacle). for kibble, it's really a great food...very high quality, no recalls...small tootsie roll poops and no body odor. a terrific food.


Thank you for the support, we are hoping that it is just the stitches, but in the back of our minds, we are thinking of the worst case scenario, unfortunately.

As far as food goes, choosing something for Loki is going to be difficult. I just had a chance to look up Pinnacle's food products and they look good. However, if Loki is having digestion issues, he might need some type of Gastrointestinal food.

Just another thing that I have to research.:headbang:


----------



## eddie1976E

I would look at Blue Basics...its meant for sensitive stomachs. We used it for a year or two with my last dog.


----------



## Jax08

I would start giving on capsule of slippery elm 20 minutes before the meal and do a home cooked of rice (made with 2x the water), chicken and ginger to give his stomach a rest. do that for a week and see if that helps his GI issues.

Did you have the area tested for Pythium? Or are you going to wait and see?


----------



## woogyboogy

eddie1976E said:


> I would look at Blue Basics...its meant for sensitive stomachs. We used it for a year or two with my last dog.


I totally forgot that Blue Buffalo makes this formula. I'm glad that you mentioned it, I will strongly consider it. Thanks!


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> I would start giving on capsule of slippery elm 20 minutes before the meal and do a home cooked of rice (made with 2x the water), chicken and ginger to give his stomach a rest. do that for a week and see if that helps his GI issues.
> 
> Did you have the area tested for Pythium? Or are you going to wait and see?


Ok you think I should give him the slippery elm even though he is already on Metronidazole, and the Aminopentamide? Also we've been feeding him his food with rice mixed in with hopes of thickening up his stomach. But we will try the rice with chicken and ginger.

We haven't gotten the area tested for Pythium, there really isn't any way to test for it, since the only way is through a blood test, and that will definitely show up positive with his recent immunotherapies. 

We are just going to wait 4-5 more days, and if it doesn't get any better than we will consider surgery/ultrasound?


Thanks for commenting Jax, I appreciate it!


----------



## Jax08

You have to make sure the slippery elm is given at least 30 minutes prior to any meds! Slippery elm completely coats the GI tract and will aid in healing any irritation. but it will also coat it so the meds can not be absorbed.


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> You have to make sure the slippery elm is given at least 30 minutes prior to any meds! Slippery elm completely coats the GI tract and will aid in healing any irritation. but it will also coat it so the meds can not be absorbed.


I might hold off on the Slippery Elm until his meds are done which will be in 8 days. If it coats the stomach so the meds cannot be absorbed I don't think we should do this just yet?


----------



## Jax08

You just have to give it before the meds. I would still home cook for him right now


----------



## woogyboogy

Jax08 said:


> You just have to give it before the meds. I would still home cook for him right now


Ok I will see if I can pick up Slippery Elm tomorrow at the Health foods store. We are going to stick with his diet of just cooked brown rice, and cooked chicken.


----------



## BowWowMeow

You can try adding sweet potatoes or pumpkin as they help firm things up and heal the gut. Be sure you are cooking the rice twice as long with twice as much water. It should be really mushy. 

Slippery elm is great and you also want probiotics and digestive enzymes at this point too. 

My go to for digestive problems is a homeopathic remedy by Homeopet called "Digestive Upsets." It works really well and is safe to give with other meds. In fact, that's all I use these days.


----------



## woogyboogy

BowWowMeow said:


> You can try adding sweet potatoes or pumpkin as they help firm things up and heal the gut. Be sure you are cooking the rice twice as long with twice as much water. It should be really mushy.
> 
> Slippery elm is great and you also want probiotics and digestive enzymes at this point too.
> 
> My go to for digestive problems is a homeopathic remedy by Homeopet called "Digestive Upsets." It works really well and is safe to give with other meds. In fact, that's all I use these days.


I've considered using Pumpkin, and will probably purchase it at the Health Food store along with the Slippery Elm. The rice we have made is really mushy, he loves eating it.

Also, he has been on probiotics since the first week of July. We have been using Probios (Amazon.com : PROBIOS*POWDER*CHR404 : Pet Probiotic Nutritional Supplements : Pet Supplies).

Thank you for the input, I really appreciate it!


----------



## Linda1270

Oh no, I thought Loki was on the mend and this nightmare would soon be behind you. I'm so sorry that Loki is having issues again but praying that it's only an infection from the stitches that is causing the sore on his back. 

It's just not fair that you, your family and most of all Loki, have to go through this again, hopefully it's all just a minor setback. 

Thinking of you and Loki.

Please try not to worry about the funds if Loki has to have another surgery, there are ways of raising funds for issues like this and money worries are something you do not need to think about at this time.


----------



## woogyboogy

Linda1270 said:


> Oh no, I thought Loki was on the mend and this nightmare would soon be behind you. I'm so sorry that Loki is having issues again but praying that it's only an infection from the stitches that is causing the sore on his back.
> 
> It's just not fair that you, your family and most of all Loki, have to go through this again, hopefully it's all just a minor setback.
> 
> Thinking of you and Loki.
> 
> Please try not to worry about the funds if Loki has to have another surgery, there are ways of raising funds for issues like this and money worries are something you do not need to think about at this time.


Thanks for the support Linda, We thought we were on the road to recovery as well so this has been a huge set back for us...

If we were OK financially, we would get an ultrasound done immediately to eliminate any idea of internal Pythium, but unfortunately we haven't even been able to catch up from any of this. I also tried to make a fundraiser which did help a little, but unfortunately was only a very small fraction of what we truly need. I also don't expect any sort of financial assistance, we got in this mess, and I know we can get out, one way or another.


Thanks again!


----------



## carmspack

what do you feel Loki needs first?


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> what do you feel Loki needs first?


That is a hard question to answer, since I truly don't know whats going on. But if money was not an option, I would get an Ultrasound done to get rid of the possibility of internal Pythium, that way we could narrow down why he is having diarrhea. 

Find a good food that we can assure Loki will do well on, and will be easy on his stomach.

Then I would say we need to continue to keep an *EXTREMELY* close eye on this "new" wound to see if it grows. If it does begin to grow, then it is more than likely returning Pythium, and again... if money wasn't an issue, I would have him in surgery ASAP.

All things aside, there are a lot of variables with our situation, and right now its a waiting game until we know what we need to do, and are able to do that financially.


----------



## llombardo

Are there any pet insurances that cover pre existing stuff out there?


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Hello again everyone, I'm here with another update.
> 
> I brought Loki into the Vet today and one of the other Vets in the office who has already seen Loki several times checked him out, she gave us her input on what she thinks is going on with this "new" wound.
> 
> She was able to remove 3 stitches around the wound so, we are really REALLY hoping that it had something to do with that...:fingerscrossed:
> 
> She thinks it is a possibility that the stitches could have caused irritation, and that they should have either been removed or dissolved by now. We are going to continue to keep a very close eye on the wound and see if it is growing.
> 
> I measured it last night, it is .5cm long, by .4cm wide.
> 
> She prescribed us another pill for his stomach issues...Aminopentamide otherwise known as Centrine. So hopefully with the 2, we can "reset" his stomach and fix his diarrhea issues.
> 
> Also, she recommended switching his food to see if his diarrhea issues could be caused by that. So I'm going to look around online and see what is a good option for dogs with digestion issues? Right now its between Taste of the Wild, and Fromm. But I still need more time to research. I plan on starting another thread about opinions on food, even though I know it is highly controversial, and is different for each dog.
> 
> Thanks everyone, and it looks like I'll be here updating daily again.:hammer:


I'm really sorry to hear about the latest developments 

I'm not sure about the Centrine: Aminopentamide Hydrogen Sulfate for Veterinary Use Seems like it would treat a symptom, rather than a cause. Btw, the herbals ginger and/or skullcap can often accomplish the same things.

I might consider something like quercetin, which inhibits eosinophils, and pythiosis shifts the body to an esoinophil state.

If that sore wasn't there, I would say that the you also have to consider the possibility that the vaccine is causing the intestinal upset - every vaccine has potential side effects, and he has received several of these? I'm not saying that he shouldn't have, but sometimes curing also has side effects. I'm really hoping that the sore is from the stitches. My boy Max had this issue with his bloat stitches. They never dissolved properly and for years little shreds would work themselves out from the body.

The Pinnacle foods are good foods - you want something that is very simple, but sometimes finding a food your dog will do well on can be tricky, if there has been any type of stomach upset.


----------



## LisaT

A strange thought, not sure what prompted me to think about this...

I was thinking about oxygen products, like this one: NZYMES Ox-E-Drops for Pets, 2.2 Oz. - NZYMES.COM - a Division of Biopet Inc. (they have people versions by different brands on the web too) And I see that several sites talk about the soil pythium as not surviving well in well-oxygenated in soil. I couldn't find it studied in the infectious form though.


> In these treatments, plants started showing typical symptoms of root decay and infection within 6 days after inoculation with Pythium F, while highly oxygenated plants remained healthy throughout the experiment and showed a significant decrease in root colonization by the pathogen
> Effect of oxygen concentration on plant growth, lipidperoxidation, and receptivity of tomato roots to Pythium F under hydroponic conditions - Springer


There are studies that show that pythium likes to infect humans that have high iron medical conditions, and these people have oxygen transport issues, so maybe something to ask Bob Glass if he knows anything about it.

I was thinking about something the other day, about Loki and boswellia, and for the life of me I can't remember why. But that article I linked to above has this, for regular plant pythium:


> Nitrogen-treated plants and controls produced higher amounts of conjugated dienes and revealed increased lipoxygenase activities in comparison with highly oxygenated plants. These differences were more pronounced after inoculation with the pathogen. Our data suggest that increases in lipoxygenase activity detected in the present study in tomato roots grown under oxygen stress and inoculated with Pythium F may lead to degradation and disorganization of membrane lipids. That disorganization may facilitate root colonization by the pathogen and appearance of decay.


Boswellia is a 5-lipoxygenase inhibitor, so I'm not sure it would be the right one (I'm guessing that there are different types), and I don't know if the infectious pythium has the same property.

Lots of "ifs"


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Are there any pet insurances that cover pre existing stuff out there?


I do not believe so...


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> I'm really sorry to hear about the latest developments
> 
> I'm not sure about the Centrine: Aminopentamide Hydrogen Sulfate for Veterinary Use Seems like it would treat a symptom, rather than a cause. Btw, the herbals ginger and/or skullcap can often accomplish the same things.
> 
> I might consider something like quercetin, which inhibits eosinophils, and pythiosis shifts the body to an esoinophil state.
> 
> If that sore wasn't there, I would say that the you also have to consider the possibility that the vaccine is causing the intestinal upset - every vaccine has potential side effects, and he has received several of these? I'm not saying that he shouldn't have, but sometimes curing also has side effects. I'm really hoping that the sore is from the stitches. My boy Max had this issue with his bloat stitches. They never dissolved properly and for years little shreds would work themselves out from the body.
> 
> The Pinnacle foods are good foods - you want something that is very simple, but sometimes finding a food your dog will do well on can be tricky, if there has been any type of stomach upset.


Thanks Lisa for the great info.

I've had some time today to research Quercetin. I found a very informative article here Nature’s Benadryl: Quercetin | Dogs Naturally Magazine

I am however a little skeptical about using it while Loki is on the Metronidazole, and now the Centrine. That article states that "If your pet does have a preexisting condition, is currently on medication, has a planned surgery, or is pregnant, it’s advisable that you talk to your vet before feeding." Unfortunately I don't think our Vet is into the Holistic approach that much, so I'm not sure what she would say about this. But it does however seem very beneficial in our case, I'm just a little weary, and I need to do more research.

I talked to Bob Glass, and asked him if the immunotherapy would cause consistent diarrhea and he said that he hasn't seen it before. He has only seen several cases where a patient will have diarrhea 24-48 after the injections, but they are not consistently continued. 

Loki received his 6th immunotherapy injection on Wednesday, September 24th. And our Vet was able to remove 3 stitches that were around this wound on Friday the 26th.

I will talk to Bob about oxygen products, it is a very solid idea, that does make sense. But you are right, unfortunately there are A LOT of "IFS".

Thanks again for the support and help Lisa!


----------



## woogyboogy

Here is a link to a day by day comparison of the "new" wound. 

In picture 9/27 the wound may seem a little "wet" because we had just sprayed it with Vetericyn.

If you notice on 9/25, to the right of the wound, there is a scab, but then in 9/28, the scab is no longer there, which makes me think that this "new" wound might be from Loki irritating the skin? Also, the 3 stitches our Vet removed were on 9/26, so you can see those differences as well.

Also, this morning I was able to shave a little more hair around the wound, so if you notice a difference in the hair from 9/28 to earlier, that's why.

*http://i.imgur.com/HFvX5BP.jpg
*
Please share your thoughts.:thinking:


----------



## eddie1976E

It looks to me like its healing...crossing my fingers


----------



## huntergreen

didn't read all 90 pages, but, were any internal stitches used?


----------



## woogyboogy

huntergreen said:


> didn't read all 90 pages, but, were any internal stitches used?


Yes internal stitches were used, but the Vet told us the internal stitches would dissolve. Also, since you didn't read through to much, he had his surgery on 7/7/2014, just to give you an idea on how long he had the stitches.


----------



## woogyboogy

eddie1976E said:


> It looks to me like its healing...crossing my fingers


Thanks for the positive energy, It is very hard to tell by the pictures, but in person it does look like its closing up some.:fingerscrossed:


----------



## huntergreen

if he were human, i would say that maybe a little fistula formed around one of the dissolvable sutures and worked its way out, drained and is starting to heal. thats what i see in the picture anyway. also, depending on the size of the suture used, they can take awhile to dissolve, form a small pocket of puss/infection and work its ay out. is he still on antibiotics.


----------



## woogyboogy

huntergreen said:


> if he were human, i would say that maybe a little fistula formed around one of the dissolvable sutures and worked its way out, drained and is starting to heal. thats what i see in the picture anyway. also, depending on the size of the suture used, they can take awhile to dissolve, form a small pocket of puss/infection and work its ay out. is he still on antibiotics.


What you said does make sense. The only antibiotic he is on currently is Metronidazole for his diarrhea. However, on our Vet appointment on Tuesday I am going to bring up antibiotics for this issue he has going on, and see what she says.

We are also a little hesitant putting him on antibiotics, because it can weaken his immune system, and with the Pythium still in his system, that is the last thing we need.


Thank you very much for the input!


----------



## llombardo

Coconut oil is a good natural way to help heal some wounds. I wonder if it could be used on this?


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Coconut oil is a good natural way to help heal some wounds. I wonder if it could be used on this?


We have been continuously spraying the Vetericyn Wound spray on it, only because it drys quickly and we can keep a good eye on it without it being sticky or messy.

With coconut oil, I wonder if there will be a residue over the wound that dirt and other unwanted things can stick to. We were also considering Manuka Honey, but that is similar as far as attracting unwanted objects like dirt to stick to it.

We are however still wanting to purchase the coconut oil to use in his food, but just have really had the extra money to purchase things we want.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> We have been continuously spraying the Vetericyn Wound spray on it, only because it drys quickly and we can keep a good eye on it without it being sticky or messy.
> 
> With coconut oil, I wonder if there will be a residue over the wound that dirt and other unwanted things can stick to. We were also considering Manuka Honey, but that is similar as far as attracting unwanted objects like dirt to stick to it.
> 
> We are however still wanting to purchase the coconut oil to use in his food, but just have really had the extra money to purchase things we want.


Midnite had scabs like that when he was doing the flea biting. I would warm up the coconut oil to make it liquid and then put it on. It healed them right up, no residue and he smelled good It might help him internally to. I put it as a liquid over their food versus gobs of it. I also seen you were looking at pumpkin. I found a place by me that sells 100% pumpkin in a dry form for dogs and cats. The big bag is equivalent to 12 cans of pumpkin.


----------



## LisaT

^^that product has apple fiber too, which is a good form of soluble fiber.


----------



## huntergreen

woogy, to be clear, i am not an expert. with that being said, since the pills you are using isn't stopping the loose stool , i wouldn't use it. stool sample for the vet might be in order as repeat.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> What you said does make sense. The only antibiotic he is on currently is Metronidazole for his diarrhea. However, on our Vet appointment on Tuesday I am going to bring up antibiotics for this issue he has going on, and see what she says.
> 
> We are also a little hesitant putting him on antibiotics, because it can weaken his immune system, and with the Pythium still in his system, that is the last thing we need.
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for the input!


It may or may not be the right abx for a fistula, but I would really want to try Loki on doxycycline if I thought it was coming back, based on the report that says in the test tube, it has some anti-pythium activity. I was reading a report last night, dated july of this year, that said no other studies have been done. I know that Bob Glass said that it wasn't effective, but I'd would ask him specifically about which study looked at that, or which dogs have tried that, before summarily dismissing it.

Btw, doxy was huge in the treatment of my boy's perianal fistula.


----------



## llombardo

LisaT said:


> ^^that product has apple fiber too, which is a good form of soluble fiber.


It works well and it's easy to give. I give it to my oldest when she decides to be picky, it's a good topper.


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> Yes internal stitches were used, but the Vet told us the internal stitches would dissolve. Also, since you didn't read through to much, he had his surgery on 7/7/2014, just to give you an idea on how long he had the stitches.


Just as a reminder, my boy was expelling pieces of stitches for *years* after his bloat surgery.... open skin, with threads coming out - we could pull some of it out with a tweezer, it would heal up, and start up all over again.


----------



## LisaT

LisaT said:


> Just as a reminder, my boy was expelling pieces of stitches for *years* after his bloat surgery.... open skin, with threads coming out - we could pull some of it out with a tweezer, it would heal up, and start up all over again.


Those "black dots" above the pictures: http://i.imgur.com/HFvX5BP.jpg
That's exactly what max's would look like. He never had the open wound though, it just looked like an open hole in the skin when it was ready.

So far, it looks like things are healing - seems to me the next several days will be very telling.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Midnite had scabs like that when he was doing the flea biting. I would warm up the coconut oil to make it liquid and then put it on. It healed them right up, no residue and he smelled good It might help him internally to. I put it as a liquid over their food versus gobs of it. I also seen you were looking at pumpkin. I found a place by me that sells 100% pumpkin in a dry form for dogs and cats. The big bag is equivalent to 12 cans of pumpkin.


I will have to see if I can find this anywhere locally, if not I'm sure I can find it online. Thanks for this, I've never seen it before!


----------



## woogyboogy

huntergreen said:


> woogy, to be clear, i am not an expert. with that being said, since the pills you are using isn't stopping the loose stool , i wouldn't use it. stool sample for the vet might be in order as repeat.


I understand, you are being helpful, and I cannot even begin to thank you for the advice!

I haven't really had time to post this, I sort of forgot in the mix of things, but yesterday Loki had 2 bowel movements, 1 in the am, and 1 in the pm. The one in the morning came out normal, and ended up mushy. However the one at night was 100% normal and formed. *BUT* we just took him out about 20 minutes ago and it was completely mushy, similar to pudding consistency.:headbang: Which is what has been going on with him.

Also, not sure if you read or not, but he has a stool sample performed last week and it came back negative for anything.

Thanks again!


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> It may or may not be the right abx for a fistula, but I would really want to try Loki on doxycycline if I thought it was coming back, based on the report that says in the test tube, it has some anti-pythium activity. I was reading a report last night, dated july of this year, that said no other studies have been done. I know that Bob Glass said that it wasn't effective, but I'd would ask him specifically about which study looked at that, or which dogs have tried that, before summarily dismissing it.
> 
> Btw, doxy was huge in the treatment of my boy's perianal fistula.



I will absolutely bring up Doxycycline to our Vet on Tuesday, and when I talk to Bob Glass tomorrow I will also see what he has to say about it.



LisaT said:


> Those "black dots" above the pictures: http://i.imgur.com/HFvX5BP.jpg
> That's exactly what max's would look like. He never had the open wound though, it just looked like an open hole in the skin when it was ready.
> 
> So far, it looks like things are healing - seems to me the next several days will be very telling.


Yes, you are right. These next couple days are going to be very important, and stressful...what's new

Thanks for the support Lisa!


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> It works well and it's easy to give. I give it to my oldest when she decides to be picky, it's a good topper.


Found it online, reviews are really good.

Amazon.com : Diggin' Your Dog Firm Up Pumpkin Super Supplement for Digestive Tract Health for Dogs, 4-Ounce : Pet Digestive Remedies : Pet Supplies

Thanks again for the recommendation!


----------



## BahCan

As far as his diarrhea, I know you said he was on the same food, but did you by any chance open up a new bag right before it started, if so, maybe something had changed in the food.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Found it online, reviews are really good.
> 
> Amazon.com : Diggin' Your Dog Firm Up Pumpkin Super Supplement for Digestive Tract Health for Dogs, 4-Ounce : Pet Digestive Remedies : Pet Supplies
> 
> Thanks again for the recommendation!


When mine had poop issues, the same as your explaining, it was a combination of things and all fecals came back negative. Over feeding can cause this poop to. Have you tried reducing the kibble intake? I reduced that and supplemented with fruit, all kinds of berries and bananas. My dogs did not do well with yogurt or cottage cheese. It took me about 3 months to get the right balance for Midnite, I never thought I would see any solid poop with him. I also moved away from chicken and focused on fish. I also went with a lower in fat higher in protein food. I think the protein was to high and I worried about high protein and the kidneys.


----------



## llombardo

And we had stock in metronidazole. After a while I just picked it up and they didn't request seeing the dogs. I feel it works in the beginning or if they haven't had if for a while, but after a while they become immune to it.


----------



## LisaT

BahCan said:


> As far as his diarrhea, I know you said he was on the same food, but did you by any chance open up a new bag right before it started, if so, maybe something had changed in the food.


Yes, absolutely something to check. Sometimes you also get a tainted bag of food, or they changed the food, and you won't know for awhile.


----------



## LisaT

Be careful with metronidazole. It is neuro toxic. Some dogs will react soon after starting it, but some won't unless it's used long term. Watch for stumbliness (max would slip on the kitchen floor), or hyperexcitation of the nervous system, like feeling really good (amped up, but you don't realize it), rigid tail, high stepping, etc. It paralyzed my old girl once. Scariest thing ever. Jazz's internal medicine vet is very cautious when he uses it, but we still use it here, and watch carefully.


----------



## carmspack

seems like we have come somewhat full circle . 

I have taken the time and gone over 90 pages of this thread.

I think some very good information has already been shared --

the dog likely has diarrhea because the liver needs to detoxify all the antibiotics , and the pesticides and the vaccines and the anaesthetic and the after surgery drugs -- 
so work with it , work with the bodies needs .

Frankly I didn't put two and two together , being familiar with pythium from turf management . After referencing Teeming with Microbes , it made sense. 

As with many things we need to change the terrain. 

The dog was hit when he was at a period where his immunity was fragile. 

The skin, is an organ. It is the barrier that keeps the outside world outside .
The digestive system operates keeping the outside world , introduced into the inside , contained, processed, eliminated.
The liver is an organ which processes , rebuilds proteins , and eliminates things from the outside world.

Usually when there is a problem all 3 are involved.

Throughout this thread LisaT has offered some very good information on the necessity of strengthening the immune system. 

Momto2GSDS page 39 -- thoughts on woogy quote "*Also, we mentioned the Advantage to him and he said there would be no problems with re applying it this coming week*.







"

no problems? can't be on board with that . 
Excellent information provided by Momsto2 on page 39
I would expand that caution to healthy dogs. 

Page 41 , LisaT , comments on Trifexis -- go back and read that page. *This drug should not be on the market.*


----------



## carmspack

LisaT said:


> A strange thought, not sure what prompted me to think about this...
> 
> I was thinking about oxygen products, like this one: NZYMES Ox-E-Drops for Pets, 2.2 Oz. - NZYMES.COM - a Division of Biopet Inc. (they have people versions by different brands on the web too) And I see that several sites talk about the soil pythium as not surviving well in well-oxygenated in soil. I couldn't find it studied in the infectious form though.
> 
> There are studies that show that pythium likes to infect humans that have high iron medical conditions, and these people have oxygen transport issues, so maybe something to ask Bob Glass if he knows anything about it.
> 
> I was thinking about something the other day, about Loki and boswellia, and for the life of me I can't remember why. But that article I linked to above has this, for regular plant pythium:
> 
> Boswellia is a 5-lipoxygenase inhibitor, so I'm not sure it would be the right one (I'm guessing that there are different types), and I don't know if the infectious pythium has the same property.
> 
> Lots of "ifs"


full circle "
kept bugging me , pythium, knew I knew it from some where but it has been so long and pushed back into the old memory bank.

pythium , would this be the same fungas that is responsible for root rot, damping off (sprouting seeds that are too moist) _Pythium blight (a particularly devestating disease)_
 [URL="http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.germanshepherds.com%2Fforum%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D466682%26amp%3Bpage%3D77&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-V0cGIvS8b9s%2FTet-hU6ya2I%2FAAAAAAAAAMM%2FW-dtVUFuuzQ%2Fs1600%2Fbrown%2Bpatch.jpg"]Report this image[/URL]​ conditions , warm, wet , humid , poor drainage - monoculture - so your dog does not need to go into a pond to be exposed.​ what are your lawns like?​ 
and LisaT page 78
QUOTE=LisaT;5866162]This is great news  Did you ask about the need for xrays, since it seems that is how the cutaneous stuff spreads?

What a huge relief, and I think now you just hope the vaccine is doing its magic. If you try the Springtime for the ticks, the garlic may help fighting the pythium.

From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with 

As for the controversy between Glass and Grooters. Somewhere in the middle, there is the "real" story, which we will never know. Because they disagree, and because Glass has a vaccine that is somewhat effective, that does not mean that Grooters doesn't know what she is talking about. We see a lot of this controversy in some of the differences between tick disease labs and tests, and you'll see it in the controversy surrounding the test for GSD DM.[/QUOTE]


----------



## carmspack

carmspack said:


> personally I would keep him out of chlorinated water -- if the dog loves water that much get him his own kiddie pool to puddle around in and fill it with plain garden hose water.
> 
> the reasoning behind this is that possibly the dog's immune system was at a weakened vulnerable state which allowed this entire episode to initiate .
> 
> he is still in recovery , all out of kilter , still needs to re establish a point where he can be in stasis , stable .
> His skin is still sensitive .
> 
> The chlorine is drying and can cause rashes .
> Chlorine will affect the bacterial level of his skin , both good and necessary and pathogens .
> The ear , I would put in some good coconut oil in to restore the natural oily barrier .
> 
> chlorine irritation --
> 
> pm sent


 The skin has a natural mantle which acts as a protective barrier . I thought that a general piece of advise would have been to have kept the stitches dry ? 
Possibly what you are seeing is an irritation .


----------



## carmspack

*"*There was 4 other dogs in the pond swimming at the same time, ranging from 2 to 6 years old, none of them had any issues whatsoever. We were the "lucky" ones.

It is all about the immune system, Dogs with weak immune systems are more susceptible to getting Pythiosis, and in our case, he was only 4 1/2 months old so his immune system was/is still trying to strengthen, so it wasn't able to fight off the infection when it all started"
your words page 54 .

the task is to work on the dogs immune system - he needs to do quite a bit of repair .

I did recommend to you to seek out a holistic vet , submit your papers and allow them to speak specialist to specialist . They need to understand the immunotherapy that the dog has been getting (page 68) sot that they can work out a plan which will integrate treatment , and recovery . So much has been done to the dog . It will affect his entire system .
The holistic vet will have a different approach , a different understanding of nutrition, tonic herbs , alternative approaches , considering the dog as a whole rather than a distressed part .
You need someone to provide you with a good plan . A professional who understands the needs of the dog in this situation. Someone who understands the chemistry of the treatment and what it has done , what the dog will experience because of it , and what to provide that will not interfere, diminish ongoing treatment .
See page 60 re pau d' arco , as an example . This is medicine -- which can have serious interactions other drugs that the dog was receiving. 




I did check into avid field trial competitors whose dogs continually work around ponds , swampy type environments and their answer was that strong dogs aren't affected . 

I put together a very long PM which got canned because of timing out . Can't do that again.


----------



## woogyboogy

BahCan said:


> As far as his diarrhea, I know you said he was on the same food, but did you by any chance open up a new bag right before it started, if so, maybe something had changed in the food.


I never thought of this until you mentioned it...I don't know exactly when, but not to long ago with did buy and start using a new bag of food, the same exact food we've been feeding him, but it was a new bag...Something to think about but not really sure how we would ever narrow it down and solve that as the problem? Other than getting another bag of food and trying that for a week?


Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it!


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> When mine had poop issues, the same as your explaining, it was a combination of things and all fecals came back negative. Over feeding can cause this poop to. Have you tried reducing the kibble intake? I reduced that and supplemented with fruit, all kinds of berries and bananas. My dogs did not do well with yogurt or cottage cheese. It took me about 3 months to get the right balance for Midnite, I never thought I would see any solid poop with him. I also moved away from chicken and focused on fish. I also went with a lower in fat higher in protein food. I think the protein was to high and I worried about high protein and the kidneys.


We feed him about 4 cups per day, but recently it has all been different because of the rice and chicken. 

We may try to experiment with adding fruits and veggies.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> Be careful with metronidazole. It is neuro toxic. Some dogs will react soon after starting it, but some won't unless it's used long term. Watch for stumbliness (max would slip on the kitchen floor), or hyperexcitation of the nervous system, like feeling really good (amped up, but you don't realize it), rigid tail, high stepping, etc. It paralyzed my old girl once. Scariest thing ever. Jazz's internal medicine vet is very cautious when he uses it, but we still use it here, and watch carefully.


We have been keeping a very close eye on him since he has been put on Metronidazole, but luckily we haven't seen any reactions like you are explaining. But we will continue to watch for them.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> *"*There was 4 other dogs in the pond swimming at the same time, ranging from 2 to 6 years old, none of them had any issues whatsoever. We were the "lucky" ones.
> 
> It is all about the immune system, Dogs with weak immune systems are more susceptible to getting Pythiosis, and in our case, he was only 4 1/2 months old so his immune system was/is still trying to strengthen, so it wasn't able to fight off the infection when it all started"
> your words page 54 .
> 
> the task is to work on the dogs immune system - he needs to do quite a bit of repair .
> 
> I did recommend to you to seek out a holistic vet , submit your papers and allow them to speak specialist to specialist . They need to understand the immunotherapy that the dog has been getting (page 68) sot that they can work out a plan which will integrate treatment , and recovery . So much has been done to the dog . It will affect his entire system .
> The holistic vet will have a different approach , a different understanding of nutrition, tonic herbs , alternative approaches , considering the dog as a whole rather than a distressed part .
> You need someone to provide you with a good plan . A professional who understands the needs of the dog in this situation. Someone who understands the chemistry of the treatment and what it has done , what the dog will experience because of it , and what to provide that will not interfere, diminish ongoing treatment .
> See page 60 re pau d' arco , as an example . This is medicine -- which can have serious interactions other drugs that the dog was receiving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did check into avid field trial competitors whose dogs continually work around ponds , swampy type environments and their answer was that strong dogs aren't affected .
> 
> I put together a very long PM which got canned because of timing out . Can't do that again.


Thank you so much for all the extremely informative info.

Loki was only on Trifexis for about 1-2 months, and this was when he was very young, He has never been on it since that conversation we had in this thread took place. As far as a holistic Vet, the only one even remotely close to me is over an hour away... And I'm not even sure they are good? I will wait for you to respond to my PM I sent you earlier.

Thanks again Carmspack!


----------



## woogyboogy

*WARNING POOP PICTURES*

*9-27 PM*









*9-28 AM*









*9-28 PM*

















*9-29 PM*

































All of this is horrible...I just don't understand.:headbang:

9-27, and 9-28 were semi normal...and now its just going back to how it has been...:crazy:


----------



## woogyboogy

I guess I should also mention that within the past 2 days we've switched his diet from his normal 4 cups per day of Blue Buffalo Large Breed, to 1 Cup cooked white rice, 1 cup boiled chicken, and 3/4 cups of his Blue Buffalo.

Please give me your thoughts...I'm going crazy.:crazy:


----------



## llombardo

I know you guys are desperate and things keep switching. It's messing with him. If you are doing cooked foods, do small meals a few times a day with the pumpkin. His stomach needs a rest.


----------



## llombardo

Calm the vet and find out what fat and protein level might work for his stomach troubles . I think something with low fat and limited ingredients might help. When did the icky poop start?


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Calm the vet and find out what fat and protein level might work for his stomach troubles . I think something with low fat and limited ingredients might help. When did the icky poop start?


The icky poop started yesterday I'd say. Icky as in mucous-like. Our Vet already recommended us 2 brands. Purina EN Gastroenteric, and ROYAL CANIN Canine Gastrointestinal Low Fat.











We didn't purchase it at the Vet on Friday because I wanted some time to research them both.


----------



## carmspack

thanks woogy --- sorry folks --- had a lovely long discussion with woogy this afternoon and thought that it would be beneficial to this thread and others to do some poop analysis.

on this forum diarrhea and itching are the main physical problems which are recurrent. 
The colour , texture, volume, and smell will tell you how best to solve this.

woogy -- look at the stool -- you can see undigested corn meal and totally undigested white rice 

the dog does not have the digestive enzymes, amylase , to digest starches/carbohydrates.
white rice has very little nutritive value , has not been sprouted or adequately rinsed so has phytates or phytic acid which inhibit absorbtion of minerals . Instead of helping , there is a digestive burden .

what would have been better ? Burdock , slippery elm, marshmallow root , carob , digestive enzymes , probiotics .

look at the formula for the first gastro product , Purina ,
*Ingredients (Dry)*

Brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, chicken meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), coconut oil, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, wheat bran, animal digest, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, sodium bicarbonate, salt, fish oil, zinc proteinate, Vitamin E supplement, dried colostrum, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, copper proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite"

that is pretty close to the "vegan" diet discussed on another thread.

on the Amazon site it says "to boost metabolism and fat burning for pets with sensitive GI systems."

generally , intuitively , a dog or even person , with a sensitive GI system tends to be a poor-doer. Nothing that you throw at them sticks . They tend to being underweight , marginally nourished. Digestion needs to be improved . Do they need to have their digestion revved and do they need to burn fat ? 
From the Amazon site "High protein, fiber promote fullness and health"
Corn and rice, would they provide all essential amino acids and non-essential amino acids . Sometimes as much as one essential amino acid gone missing will make the difference between something being digestible or not.
The wording seems to suggest both high protein and high fiber content , which is filling .





On the site https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/Product/ENGastroentericDogFood.aspx
the description suggests "
High digestibility 
Source of MCTs (22-34% of fat) 
Moderate fat 
Source of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids 
Low fiber 
Increased antioxidant vitamins E & C 
Added Zinc 
Enhanced with Colostrum (dry formula

little confused is it high fiber or low fiber ??

the other product line that you mentioned Royal Canin 





Gastro Intestinal Low Fat / Veterinary Therapeutic Formulas / Canine Nutrition / Veterinary Products / Home - RoyalCanin

Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, wheat, barley, natural flavors, dried beet pulp, grain distillers dried yeast, chicken fat, salt, calcium carbonate, fish oil, sodium silico aluminate, psyllium seed husk, potassium chloride, monocalcium phosphate, fructooligosaccharides, hydrolyzed yeast, choline chloride, taurine, DL-methionine, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), vitamins (DL-alpha tocopherol acetate [source of vitamin E], L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate [source of vitamin C], biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride [vitamin B6], vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, thiamine mononitrate [vitamin B1], vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement), trace minerals (zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate), rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid.Calorie Content - See more at: Gastro Intestinal Low Fat / Veterinary Therapeutic Formulas / Canine Nutrition / Veterinary Products / Home - RoyalCanin

giving each product similar treatment - amazon site information and company web site information.

what is brewers rice ? quote
"Brewer’s rice is small fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice - 
and
"Brewer’s rice is sold exclusively for dairy feed and pet food. This bulky fiber will fill your dog up without harming him - "
from another site "Brewer’s rice would be an example of these bulky fillers without nutrients or food value that are leftover debris from human food production"

IF I were on a ship wreck with my dog and I had to tuck one of these under my arm (no other options) I would choose the Royal Canin .

One other consideration -- on bags of dog food you will see this "(DL-alpha tocopherol acetate [source of vitamin E], "

I think this is curious -- the L in DL indicates that this is synthetic .
Vitamin E is a source of alpha tocopherol . Not DL alpha tocopherol , an isolate , is a source of vitamin E . 8 compounds are required , 4 tocopherols , 4 tocotrienols.

good start .. more to come


----------



## carmspack

continuing along some talking points we had during our phone session this afternoon I did say that this dog has been through a lot. 
He is quite the little fighter -- .
He has had vaccines, drugs , anaesthetics, anti biotics , all sorts of things , including wormers , heart worm , flea and tick prevention to contend with in his short time on earth . There comes a point where the liver can not process quickly enough and so you a bit of Herxheimer's -- a need to detox -- loose stools being one method to eliminate . 

a yellow colored stool may be that color because of too rapid evacuation or some bacterial imbalance.
Yellow stool shows involvement of the the liver and gallbladder, bile salts diminished.
So you want to slow the transit time .

The mucusy stool indicates some inflammation and bacterial overgrowth , which probiotics will address , and white starchy food does not help .

Electrolytes are important. I did mention potassium and sodium , emphasizing that sodium isn't sodium chloride - table salt -- 
I recommend goat whey - which I use in both Feed-Sentials and the Sunday Sundae - that is how important this is Capra Mineral Whey – Mineral Rich, Electrolytes from Goat Milk Whey

quote another site 
"Whey is a good source of electrolytes including sodium and potassium, which are required during diarrhoea therapy. "

You can buy liquid whey .

KEFIR --- real , cultured , non flavoured , no sugars , plain KEFIR .

how to help in the meantime 

I would have a clean glass container sitting with some chia seeds, better yet sprouted chia seeds and water allowing this to form a soothing demulcent packed with essential fatty acids, and nutritive protein and minerals.

And one or more of these - burdock powder , slippery elm , marshmallow root , or get a yucca root and boil that up if (Caribbean / Asian market).

I would bake that sweet potato - a good source of potassium -- I would add some fat source which helps with digestion -- pat of butter for butyric acid -

mix it up - feed -- I would go so far as to get some lean beef raw - and mix this with this --


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## carmspack

get a bunch of turkey necks, chicken necks, pork necks , beef - even cow foot -- and make a dense concentrated bone broth -- use that as your liquid


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## Aviorwolf

Hey, Woogy, check your email!
SS


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## Juliem24

When humans have diarrhea ( which frequently is a consequence of antibiotics), recommendations are always for a very limited ingredient diet. Specifically, the BRAT diet ( bananas, rice applesauce and toast). The kid is slowly progressed, but if the diarrhea recurs, you go back to step one.
I have used this technique with dogs, too, the diet being bananas, rice, boiled chicken with broth and a fiber source of your choice. It seems counter intuitive to add fiber, but it helps "bulk up" the stool. I also use kefir or home made yogurt ( live culture). The fiber source I have used is Metamucil power, mixed in the kefir. I've never as a dog who was really enthusiastic about kefir, though!
Carmspack, your information is amazingly well researched, thank you. I have learned a lot from this thread. I wish the reason wasn't poor Loki's issues, though.


----------



## LisaT

It has happened, often in fact, that dogs build an intolerance to a protein, very often chicken because it's so common. I've seen some very sick dogs get a lot better when the chicken was removed from the diet. If the stools became worse with the home prepared chicken & rice, I might be inclined to try some ground beef, maybe with some steamed frozen green beans instead of rice, though I'm using steamed turnips here. You could try the rice, but I've just never been a fan....

It's still possible that you have a bad bag of dog food.

For my IBD girl here, I make sure she has enzymes, probiotics, and marshmallow has been a lifesaver. Much the same that Carmen is talking about. Just cooked some bone broth for her over the weekend.


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## LisaT

Is the sore on the back getting any worse?


----------



## carmspack

coconut flour -- 
oatmeal that has been soaked in bone broth till slimy , soluble fiber , chia seeds soaked till gelatinous ,

For extra benefit of electrolytes use Coconut water -- no flavours , no sweeteners . Plain.

IF rice , brown rice let to stand in water for a few hours or over night to remove phytates -- done up in bone broth 

every kitchen should have a really good blender .

Vitamix, Blendtec . Take this , whatever mix you have made and liquefy it . 
Take the liquefied mix and incorporate this into your beef meat ball .


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## Linda1270

When one of my Labs use to get sick and would not eat rice with his boiled hamburg, I would add Gerber Baby Rice Flakes, per his vet and he would gobble it up like it was his last meal. He couldn't wait to eat this lovely concoction, he'd dance around the kitchen waiting for it to be ready.

Another thought would be to mix the Gerber Rice Flakes with Raw Organic Goats Milk.....lots of probiotics in raw goats milk. Just a thought.

Hope Loki is doing okay today. How is the sore on his back looking?


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## woogyboogy

Hi everyone, I will respond back individually shortly. Just very busy right now and extremely overwhelmed.:crazy:

*HOWEVER*, Loki's "new" wound is actually looking way better...It is noticeably smaller today. I will upload pictures shortly. But the wound itself is about .3cm long by .2cm long now. Compared to 5 days ago it was .5cm by .4cm. So this is excellent news.

But as far as the diarrhea goes, he had another one this morning and it was still the yellowish tint.


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## woogyboogy

We still have ALOT to learn as far as Loki's nutrition and diet go, and we are trying to figure it all out, but unfortunately there is so much to learn, and we need to obtain so many different things to get Loki on the right track.

But here is a picture of Loki's "new" wound today compared with a picture from 9/25.










The wound as of today, is actually very close to be "closed" up completely. We have our Vet appointment in 2 hours so I'm going to email the office all of the pictures we've taken so they get an idea of the time-lapse progress.

Thanks everyone, and I'm still trying to go through emails, PMs, and everyones responses.


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## KentuckyFenway

Oh that looks so much better. Fingers crossed that the vet visit goes well.


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## woogyboogy

KentuckyFenway said:


> Oh that looks so much better. Fingers crossed that the vet visit goes well.


Thank you, I agree that it does look way better, we just got back a little bit ago.


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## woogyboogy

We just got home from the Vet a little bit ago and it went as well as it could. She said that the wound on the incision looked very good, and there was no reason for any antibiotics because it is healing fine on its own. She just said to keep a very close eye on it. Also, she was able to shave all of the hair around the incision which is what we've been trying to do but our shaver doesn't cut through his hair fast enough for him to sit still.

Anyways, know we can keep a much better eye on it, and it will have a lot more access to air to dry it out.

As far as the diarrhea, our Vet said to discontinue all of his supplements, except the Metronidazole. She said that it wouldn't have any negative effect on him...hopefully that's the case...we will see. He only has about 6 more pills left, so 3 days total remaining. 

The food situation has become a complete and utter stressful situation. She is recommending Royal Canin Gastrointestinal Prescription food, but the general consensus on here and online, is not for that idea. It is extremely confusing on what to do, but ultimately we will have to make a decision, and fast.

Input?

Also I spoke with Bob Glass today on the phone, and I explained to him how the wound was looking much better. I sent him pictures which he looked at. He said that there is a great chance that it isn't Pythium, because if it was, there is no way it would start to heal. He was very happy about the situation, and although he thinks its not Pythium, we still have to keep it in the _front_ of our minds that it very well could be.:crazy: 

He basically just said stay on top of it...which is exactly what we are doing...that is why I spend 90% of my day on this forum, and online reading, researching, and educating myself as much as possible about everything going on.:spittingcoffee:




























Thanks everyone!:hugs:


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## CindyMDBecker

I've been holding my breath hoping you'd get good (or at least hopeful) news. I think of you throughout every day. I am so thankful Loki has YOU for his owner. You do a great job keeping us informed ... it must be agonizing as all heck to have to relive every scenario and yet you do for all of us. Thank you. You have a LOT of people pulling for you. Hang in there! Lot of love & hugs coming your way. This just HAS to be a success story. Come on Loki! :wub:


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## woogyboogy

CindyMDBecker said:


> I've been holding my breath hoping you'd get good (or at least hopeful) news. I think of you throughout every day. I am so thankful Loki has YOU for his owner. You do a great job keeping us informed ... it must be agonizing as all heck to have to relive every scenario and yet you do for all of us. Thank you. You have a LOT of people pulling for you. Hang in there! Lot of love & hugs coming your way. This just HAS to be a success story. Come on Loki! :wub:


Cindy, I'm glad to see you post here, you have been such an amazing supporter throughout this journey. 

We are trying our hardest to make sure Loki has the best possible chance at overcoming this horrible situation. It is extremely stressful and trying, but without the assistance from this forum I know for a fact that we wouldn't be where we are today without it.:hugs:


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## BowWowMeow

Glad to see that the wound is healing!!!!!!

Diarrhea is actually a side effect of metro/flagyl and there have been dogs on here before who did worse on it. It is obviously NOT helping and since it is an antibiotic longterm use will just continue to destroy the good intestinal flora. 

If this were my dog, I would change proteins (try lean buffalo or beef or poached salmon) and try one of the holistic remedies suggested here. 
I used this in an emergency situation with my 19 year old cat: Only Natural Pet Tummy Relief Dog Cat Supplement


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## carmspack

that is why I recommended Orijen Regional Red Regional Red | Orijen


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## woogyboogy

BowWowMeow said:


> Glad to see that the wound is healing!!!!!!
> 
> Diarrhea is actually a side effect of metro/flagyl and there have been dogs on here before who did worse on it. It is obviously NOT helping and since it is an antibiotic longterm use will just continue to destroy the good intestinal flora.
> 
> If this were my dog, I would change proteins (try lean buffalo or beef or poached salmon) and try one of the holistic remedies suggested here.
> I used this in an emergency situation with my 19 year old cat: Only Natural Pet Tummy Relief Dog Cat Supplement


Thank you for the support.

We are very relieved that the wound is healing, but unfortunately we aren't able to forget about the possible chance of Pythium arising.

He only has 3 more days left of the Metronidazole so we are just going to finish it out, per our Vet. We are in the process of a diet change, it is alot easier said than done unfortunately. I never would have guessed it to be so difficult finding a proper food.

Thanks again!


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> that is why I recommended Orijen Regional Red Regional Red | Orijen


Thank you so much Carmen!


----------



## Juliem24

Yes, thanks to this forum, I have learned that many GSD are sensitive to chicken. I recommended it, but did that in error (wasn't thinking, just what worked for other dogs I've owned). 
Woogyboogy, the wound looks great. I am really hoping that this mess will be done soon! You're doing a great job with Loki.


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## carmspack

maybe it is the quality of the chicken?

I would say all the dogs that I have had have a diet that is 60 to 70 % chicken . frames, ground, hearts, liver, giblets,

no diarrhea --- ever -- no itching , no scratching, no gummy ears , no eyes tearing -- long lived , hassle free


----------



## LisaT

Very relieved to see that the sore isn't worse and is much better - that's a huge positive sign.

LOTS of dogs cannot tolerate chicken, mine never have, didn't help if it was organic either. Chicken is common in kibble, and probably chicken proteins in vaccines. To me, important is that he got worse when you fed the homecooked chicken (I'm assuming it was baked or something similar, not fried, etc.), which might indicate that the more pure the chicken, the more problems he had. Of course, some dogs are actually allergic/sensitive to rice, but chicken kibble, with worse on more pure chicken, just makes me wonder about the protein source. Before trying all sorts of different kibbles (if you haven't already bought a new bag to try), it would be quicker and easier to test some homeprepared beef, or some fish, and see if it's tolerated.

If the metro hasn't helped yet, it's not likely too. Generally antibiotics shoudl be finished out. With metro, *always* watch for neurotoxicity symptoms - if you see signs, 3 more pills in the script aren't worth it.

The script foods are designed to halt digestive issues, with a lot of science behind them. The science is to develop stools that owners are happy with, and not necessarily for optimal health.

As for stopping the supplements, it's up to you if you do that. Most conventional vets don't understand what most of these things do, so they prefer to stay away from them. It is true that sometimes a supplement can start causing a problem after awhile, just like any food, but I've always found when I stopped supplements because of stool issues, things didn't get better, they typically got worse (since the suppelments were well-chosen). I can't remember what he is on, but you'll have to judge which ones might be important for you to continue.


----------



## woogyboogy

Juliem24 said:


> Yes, thanks to this forum, I have learned that many GSD are sensitive to chicken. I recommended it, but did that in error (wasn't thinking, just what worked for other dogs I've owned).
> Woogyboogy, the wound looks great. I am really hoping that this mess will be done soon! You're doing a great job with Loki.


I'm really starting to think that he just can't tolerate the chicken. He kibble that he has been on since we got him at 8 weeks, has contained chicken in it. So either he can't tolerate it, or hes just getting sick of it, and we need to switch things up.

Thanks again for the support, we are so relieved that the wound is healing on its own without the help of antibiotics. I guess that shows that Loki's immune system is working, and isn't completely ruined.



carmspack said:


> maybe it is the quality of the chicken?
> 
> I would say all the dogs that I have had have a diet that is 60 to 70 % chicken . frames, ground, hearts, liver, giblets,
> 
> no diarrhea --- ever -- no itching , no scratching, no gummy ears , no eyes tearing -- long lived , hassle free


You are right, it could very well be the quality of the chicken we purchased. Also, we weren't sure the best way to prepare it, so we just boiled it? Not sure if that is good or bad?



LisaT said:


> Very relieved to see that the sore isn't worse and is much better - that's a huge positive sign.
> 
> LOTS of dogs cannot tolerate chicken, mine never have, didn't help if it was organic either. Chicken is common in kibble, and probably chicken proteins in vaccines. To me, important is that he got worse when you fed the homecooked chicken (I'm assuming it was baked or something similar, not fried, etc.), which might indicate that the more pure the chicken, the more problems he had. Of course, some dogs are actually allergic/sensitive to rice, but chicken kibble, with worse on more pure chicken, just makes me wonder about the protein source. Before trying all sorts of different kibbles (if you haven't already bought a new bag to try), it would be quicker and easier to test some homeprepared beef, or some fish, and see if it's tolerated.
> 
> If the metro hasn't helped yet, it's not likely too. Generally antibiotics shoudl be finished out. With metro, *always* watch for neurotoxicity symptoms - if you see signs, 3 more pills in the script aren't worth it.
> 
> The script foods are designed to halt digestive issues, with a lot of science behind them. The science is to develop stools that owners are happy with, and not necessarily for optimal health.
> 
> As for stopping the supplements, it's up to you if you do that. Most conventional vets don't understand what most of these things do, so they prefer to stay away from them. It is true that sometimes a supplement can start causing a problem after awhile, just like any food, but I've always found when I stopped supplements because of stool issues, things didn't get better, they typically got worse (since the suppelments were well-chosen). I can't remember what he is on, but you'll have to judge which ones might be important for you to continue.


We are very happy with the positive progress of the wound! 

Also, we are going to discontinue the use of the Metronidazole. Still unsure about discontinuing the vitamins? 

When we decide on his diet, we are going to switch to something with NO chicken to see if that really may be the problem. We are still trying to find time to go to the store and purchase several things that we need, but we will get to it, We need more than 24 hours in a day, I swear...:crazy:

Thanks again everyone for the support!!! I will give better updates later today, with pictures. His wound looks even better this morning!


----------



## GSDLoverII

Chicken gave one of my dogs the runs too.
I use this product whenever my dogs have soft stools. 
2 teaspoons each meal, mixed with canned, mixed with kibble. Works fantastic.
Good luck!
Perfect Form Digestive Supplement | The Honest Kitchen


----------



## carmspack

woogy did the dog have diarrhea with chicken before all this drama?


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## BowWowMeow

I use that Perfect Form for Rafi too. Rafi can't have any kibble but does great on raw and best on chicken! 

What about Nature's Variety rabbit kibble? 

Personally, I would be home cooking until this gets figured out. You could also take out rice and substitute sweet potatoes or quinoa.


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## carmspack

quote "An ileus can also be caused by severe gastritis or a physical blockage. In our case it is believed to be from chlorinated pool water. "
from http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-loss-appetite-advice-urgently-needed-2.html

this dog was in a chlorinated pool -- may have ingested a good volume of water at a point when the digestive system was already upset by the anti biotics and other medication -


----------



## Springbrz

carmspack said:


> quote "An ileus can also be caused by severe gastritis or a physical blockage. In our case it is believed to be from chlorinated pool water. "
> from http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-loss-appetite-advice-urgently-needed-2.html
> 
> this dog was in a chlorinated pool -- may have ingested a good volume of water at a point when the digestive system was already upset by the anti biotics and other medication -


 Actually, that dog was not on any medication at the time. However she does have many food sensitivities and a very sensitive gut and wasn't eating well before hand. 

Chlorinated pool water could be upsetting Loki's tummy (unless you have a saltwater pool). As I believe posted here he has been swimming in a pool rather than open water since he acquired Pythium. His system has been through so much and he has been on many medications.

As well discussed throughout this thread. Gut health is very important. Maybe keeping Loki from swimming in any water for a good bit might be advisable. Just a thought to consider. 

Sending healing thoughts for Loki.


----------



## carmspack

sorry springbrz if there was confusion -- the "this dog" that I was referring to was Loki , who has undergone so much .

pH level of a dog’s epidermis…Never use human products on pets! « Fur-Ever Loved Pet Salon

chlorine probably dried and irritated the skin . Getting stitches wet not the best idea . 

pH and chlorine values swimming pool - Water quality pool

many times throughout the years on forum I have suggested non-chlorinated water , non fluoridated water for the reason that it can upset the stomach and be harsh on kidneys . http://www.bioray.com/content/Chlorine.pdf

quote 
*Chlorine*

Chlorine is added to water to kill certain bacteria. This chemical can be inhaled in gas form and absorbed through the skin and therefore presents a danger even if you're present in the room with it, to say nothing of drinking it. Once in the human body, it bonds with other compounds to form Trihalomethanes (THMs). These byproducts trigger the production of free radicals in the body and cause serious cell damage. In one research study, chlorine and chloramine was added to rats' water supply and as a result the rats developed tumors in the liver kidneys and intestines."

A dog swimming in a chlorinated pool would be breathing in chlorine gas which quote "
While the bacteria-killing properties of chlorine are very useful, chlorine also has some side effects that can be annoying to humans, and possibly even hazardous. Chlorine has a very distinctive smell that most find unpleasant, and some find overwhelming. There is also the "itch factor" -- chlorine can cause certain skin types to become itchy and irritated. The hypochlorite ion causes many fabrics to fade quickly when not rinsed off immediately after exiting the pool. This is why your swimsuit looks faded and worn so early in the summer.
Extremely high amounts of chlorine gas hovering above your pool can be hazardous to your breathing"

from HowStuffWorks "How does chlorine work to clean swimming pools?"


----------



## Springbrz

Carmen- no apology needed. I see I misread your post.

Just glad sharing our experience may bring some incite/help to Loki and his owners.


----------



## woogyboogy

GSDLoverII said:


> Chicken gave one of my dogs the runs too.
> I use this product whenever my dogs have soft stools.
> 2 teaspoons each meal, mixed with canned, mixed with kibble. Works fantastic.
> Good luck!
> Perfect Form Digestive Supplement | The Honest Kitchen


I will have to look into this, it isn't that expensive either...I'm shocked.

Thanks again for everything!


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> woogy did the dog have diarrhea with chicken before all this drama?


Yes, I'm 100% positive he had diarrhea before the boiled chicken. However his current Kibble is Blue Buffalo Large Breed Adult, which he has been on since 8 weeks old. The first 2 ingredients are Chicken...

"*Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal*, Oatmeal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Peas, Whole Ground Barley, Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene), Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Potatoes, Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), Sunflower Oil (source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Apples, Blackberries, Pomegranate, Spinach, Pumpkin, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Garlic, Alfalfa Meal, Dried Kelp, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Turmeric, Dried Chicory Root, Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin (Vitamin B3), d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Choline Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Salt, Caramel, Potassium Chloride, Dried Yeast (source of Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, Dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product "

Thanks Carmen!


----------



## woogyboogy

BowWowMeow said:


> I use that Perfect Form for Rafi too. Rafi can't have any kibble but does great on raw and best on chicken!
> 
> What about Nature's Variety rabbit kibble?
> 
> Personally, I would be home cooking until this gets figured out. You could also take out rice and substitute sweet potatoes or quinoa.


I'm not sure how I feel about feeding Loki Rabbit kibble, and I'm still trying to decide whether to feed home cooked or a new kibble...very confusing.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> quote "An ileus can also be caused by severe gastritis or a physical blockage. In our case it is believed to be from chlorinated pool water. "
> from http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-loss-appetite-advice-urgently-needed-2.html
> 
> this dog was in a chlorinated pool -- may have ingested a good volume of water at a point when the digestive system was already upset by the anti biotics and other medication -


It is a possibility, however the period where he swam in the pool and his first start of diarrhea episodes weren't close together. He started having diarrhea several weeks after the pool? Not sure if that matters?


----------



## woogyboogy

Springbrz said:


> Actually, that dog was not on any medication at the time. However she does have many food sensitivities and a very sensitive gut and wasn't eating well before hand.
> 
> Chlorinated pool water could be upsetting Loki's tummy (unless you have a saltwater pool). As I believe posted here he has been swimming in a pool rather than open water since he acquired Pythium. His system has been through so much and he has been on many medications.
> 
> As well discussed throughout this thread. Gut health is very important. Maybe keeping Loki from swimming in any water for a good bit might be advisable. Just a thought to consider.
> 
> Sending healing thoughts for Loki.


The pool was chlorinated, and I guess it could be a possibility, but he didn't start having diarrhea until several weeks after he swam in the pool? 

He won't be swimming in any water for a while now, after this episode.:crazy:

Thank you for the input and support!


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> It is a possibility, however the period where he swam in the pool and his first start of diarrhea episodes weren't close together. He started having diarrhea several weeks after the pool? Not sure if that matters?


Was it after he started getting chicken?


----------



## carmspack

why does kibble need food colour " Caramel" which is questionable Caramel coloring chemical linked to cancer found in sodas - CBS News

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/coke-pepsi-and-pet-food/


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Was it after he started getting chicken?


This may be confusing, but the diarrhea started 2-3 weeks _AFTER_ the pool, and about 3-4 days _AFTER_ the chicken. But keep in mind that the kibble he is on has Chicken as the first, and second ingredient.


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> This may be confusing, but the diarrhea started 2-3 weeks _AFTER_ the pool, and about 3-4 days _AFTER_ the chicken. But keep in mind that the kibble he is on has Chicken as the first, and second ingredient.


Has he ever been itchy or ear problems?


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> Has he ever been itchy or ear problems?


Ha...has he ever...

Since we've had him at 8 weeks, he has always scratched here and there, nothing major though. We just considered it to be a normal dog thing. He wouldn't scratch himself violently, I would just say it was very mild. _However he still does it to this day. _

Our Vet suggested that it may be allergies with the season, or possibly food allergies.

Also, the only ear infection he had was several weeks ago from the pool he swam in. Which has since been taken care of, however we do clean his ears every night with ear cleanser wipes.

Thanks!


----------



## llombardo

woogyboogy said:


> Ha...has he ever...
> 
> Since we've had him at 8 weeks, he has always scratched here and there, nothing major though. We just considered it to be a normal dog thing. He wouldn't scratch himself violently, I would just say it was very mild. _However he still does it to this day. _
> 
> Our Vet suggested that it may be allergies with the season, or possibly food allergies.
> 
> Also, the only ear infection he had was several weeks ago from the pool he swam in. Which has since been taken care of, however we do clean his ears every night with ear cleanser wipes.
> 
> Thanks!


It's very possible that he has always been allergic to chicken.


----------



## woogyboogy

llombardo said:


> It's very possible that he has always been allergic to chicken.


Yeah, I honestly agree with you 100%. Hopefully we will see a difference here in the next couple of days. 

I'll be posting an update of his wound, and a couple more *NOT*-so beautiful pictures of his diarrhea


----------



## woogyboogy

The wound is looking so much better and its been 7 days. This makes us probably the happiest we've been in a while.:happyboogie:










HOWEVER...no surprise, he is still having the runny diarrhea.:headbang:

These 2 pictures are from today.




















Thanks everyone, I will gladly listen to any input.


----------



## Sunflowers

The food has a lot of chicken, plus rice, and peas, and potatoes.

This could be a recipe for runny poos.

I would switch to food with another protein and fewer fillers.


----------



## LisaT

The wound is looking great - yay!!


----------



## LisaT

woogyboogy said:


> This may be confusing, but the diarrhea started 2-3 weeks _AFTER_ the pool, and about 3-4 days _AFTER_ the chicken. But keep in mind that the kibble he is on has Chicken as the first, and second ingredient.


Yeah, but chicken in kibble is pretty adulterated, and very different than chicken you cook (or feed raw). It's a bit like when you have a dog on a food that they are allergic to, and then add enzymes, and they get worse, because they are assimilating more of the food.

If food changes don't help (use homecooked while you do this if you can so you can be sure what the body is reacting to), then you have to consider the start of something like EPI maybe....some EPI dogs will become more symptomatic as they age.

I would do the following:
elimination diet - if no change whatsoever,
consider xrays (pythium) or testing (epi, sibo, liver issues, etc.)
somewhere in there I might try a couple different probiotics.


----------



## Juliem24

I have had a lot of experience with allergies/asthma. I am 100% convinced that allergies that one may have that are sub-clinical in a normal environment, ie no obvious symptoms, can raise their ugly heads in a stressed environment ie lengthy illness, immune suppression, antibiotics, etc. the immune system seems to be able to tolerate and adapt to a lot, but when you get to the edge those symptoms start popping. Then when the stressors subside, those reactions subside. You may still have an inflammatory response, but it's not big enough to be noticeable. So, during the height of allergy season, for example, you may find yourself unable to tolerate strawberries, but in January they don't really bother you. 
Truthfully, I'm not familiar with research directly comparing mammal immune responses, but I would think some generalization can be made. Advice I've given to humans who are immune compromised is not to ingest or expose themselves to products that are known to be allergens to lotsa folks: wheat, strawberries, oranges, chocolate, dairy. And chicken in dogs! Which I have recently learned!


----------



## GatorBytes

carmspack said:


> woogy did the dog have diarrhea with chicken before all this drama?





carmspack said:


> maybe it is the quality of the chicken?
> 
> I would say all the dogs that I have had have a diet that is 60 to 70 % chicken . frames, ground, hearts, liver, giblets,
> 
> no diarrhea --- ever -- no itching , no scratching, no gummy ears , no eyes tearing -- long lived , hassle free





carmspack said:


> continuing along some talking points we had during our phone session this afternoon I did say that this dog has been through a lot.
> He is quite the little fighter -- .
> *He has had vaccines, drugs , anaesthetics, anti biotics , all sorts of things , including wormers , heart worm , flea and tick prevention to contend with in his short time on earth . There comes a point where the liver can not process quickly enough and so you a bit of Herxheimer's -- a need to detox -- loose stools being one method to eliminate .
> 
> a yellow colored stool may be that color because of too rapid evacuation or some bacterial imbalance.
> Yellow stool shows involvement of the the liver and gallbladder, bile salts diminished.
> *So you want to slow the transit time .
> 
> *The mucusy stool indicates some inflammation and bacterial overgrowth , which probiotics will address *, and white starchy food does not help .
> 
> Electrolytes are important. I did mention potassium and sodium , emphasizing that sodium isn't sodium chloride - table salt --
> I recommend goat whey - which I use in both Feed-Sentials and the Sunday Sundae - that is how important this is Capra Mineral Whey – Mineral Rich, Electrolytes from Goat Milk Whey
> 
> quote another site
> "Whey is a good source of electrolytes including sodium and potassium, which are required during diarrhoea therapy. "
> 
> You can buy liquid whey .
> 
> KEFIR --- real , cultured , non flavoured , no sugars , plain KEFIR .
> 
> how to help in the meantime
> 
> I would have a clean glass container sitting with some chia seeds, better yet sprouted chia seeds and water allowing this to form a soothing demulcent packed with essential fatty acids, and nutritive protein and minerals.
> 
> And one or more of these - burdock powder , slippery elm , marshmallow root , or get a yucca root and boil that up if (Caribbean / Asian market).
> 
> I would bake that sweet potato - a good source of potassium -- I would add some fat source which helps with digestion -- pat of butter for butyric acid -
> 
> mix it up - feed -- I would go so far as to get some lean beef raw - and mix this with this --





carmspack said:


> *"*There was 4 other dogs in the pond swimming at the same time, ranging from 2 to 6 years old, none of them had any issues whatsoever. We were the "lucky" ones.
> 
> It is all about the immune system, Dogs with weak immune systems are more susceptible to getting Pythiosis, and in our case, he was only 4 1/2 months old so his immune system was/is still trying to strengthen, so it wasn't able to fight off the infection when it all started"
> your words page 54 .
> 
> *the task is to work on the dogs immune system - he needs to do quite a bit of repair .
> *
> *I did recommend to you to seek out a holistic vet* , submit your papers and allow them to speak specialist to specialist . They need to understand the immunotherapy that the dog has been getting (page 68) sot that they can work out a plan which will integrate treatment , and recovery . So much has been done to the dog . It will affect his entire system .
> *The holistic vet will have a different approach , a different understanding of nutrition, tonic herbs , alternative approaches , considering the dog as a whole* rather than a distressed part .
> You need someone to provide you with a good plan . A professional who understands the needs of the dog in this situation. Someone who understands the chemistry of the treatment and what it has done , what the dog will experience because of it , and what to provide that will not interfere, diminish ongoing treatment .
> See page 60 re pau d' arco , as an example . This is medicine -- which can have serious interactions other drugs that the dog was receiving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did check into avid field trial competitors whose dogs continually work around ponds , swampy type environments and their answer was that strong dogs aren't affected .
> 
> I put together a very long PM which got canned because of timing out . Can't do that again.





carmspack said:


> seems like we have come somewhat full circle .
> 
> I have taken the time and gone over 90 pages of this thread.
> 
> I think some very good information has already been shared --
> 
> *the dog likely has diarrhea because the liver needs to detoxify all the antibiotics , and the pesticides and the vaccines and the anaesthetic and the after surgery drugs --
> so work with it , work with the bodies needs .
> *
> Frankly I didn't put two and two together , being familiar with pythium from turf management . After referencing Teeming with Microbes , it made sense.
> 
> *As with many things we need to change the terrain.
> 
> The dog was hit when he was at a period where his immunity was fragile*.
> 
> *The skin, is an organ. It is the barrier that keeps the outside world outside .
> The digestive system operates keeping the outside world , introduced into the inside , contained, processed, eliminated.
> The liver is an organ which processes , rebuilds proteins , and eliminates things from the outside world.
> 
> Usually when there is a problem all 3 are involved.
> *
> Throughout this thread LisaT has offered some very good information on the necessity of strengthening the immune system.
> 
> Momto2GSDS page 39 -- thoughts on woogy quote "*Also, we mentioned the Advantage to him and he said there would be no problems with re applying it this coming week*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> 
> no problems? can't be on board with that .
> Excellent information provided by Momsto2 on page 39
> I would expand that caution to healthy dogs.
> 
> Page 41 , LisaT , comments on Trifexis -- go back and read that page. *This drug should not be on the market.*


 
To re-cap and concur with Carmen


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> The food has a lot of chicken, plus rice, and peas, and potatoes.
> 
> This could be a recipe for runny poos.
> 
> I would switch to food with another protein and fewer fillers.


Yeah, we're in the process of switching him away from BB and anything chicken related.



LisaT said:


> The wound is looking great - yay!!


We are so glad that it is looking much better.:happyboogie:



LisaT said:


> Yeah, but chicken in kibble is pretty adulterated, and very different than chicken you cook (or feed raw). It's a bit like when you have a dog on a food that they are allergic to, and then add enzymes, and they get worse, because they are assimilating more of the food.
> 
> If food changes don't help (use homecooked while you do this if you can so you can be sure what the body is reacting to), then you have to consider the start of something like EPI maybe....some EPI dogs will become more symptomatic as they age.
> 
> I would do the following:
> elimination diet - if no change whatsoever,
> consider xrays (pythium) or testing (epi, sibo, liver issues, etc.)
> somewhere in there I might try a couple different probiotics.


Yeah we are in the process of getting him off anything Chicken-related entirely.

Also, I agree with you about your order of importance. However we are really hoping that his stomach issues will start to clear up here in the next couple of days.



Juliem24 said:


> I have had a lot of experience with allergies/asthma. I am 100% convinced that allergies that one may have that are sub-clinical in a normal environment, ie no obvious symptoms, can raise their ugly heads in a stressed environment ie lengthy illness, immune suppression, antibiotics, etc. the immune system seems to be able to tolerate and adapt to a lot, but when you get to the edge those symptoms start popping. Then when the stressors subside, those reactions subside. You may still have an inflammatory response, but it's not big enough to be noticeable. So, during the height of allergy season, for example, you may find yourself unable to tolerate strawberries, but in January they don't really bother you.
> Truthfully, I'm not familiar with research directly comparing mammal immune responses, but I would think some generalization can be made. Advice I've given to humans who are immune compromised is not to ingest or expose themselves to products that are known to be allergens to lotsa folks: wheat, strawberries, oranges, chocolate, dairy. And chicken in dogs! Which I have recently learned!


You must be in the medical field! I agree with everything you've said though. I think because Loki's entire system has been so compromised almost his entire life, his body has just had enough, and the diarrhea is a great indicator of that. 



GatorBytes said:


> To re-cap and concur with Carmen


You definitely pointed out some very crucial statements that have been made earlier in this thread that needed to be resurfaced.


----------



## woogyboogy

Another repetitive update,

This morning on our walk, Loki had diarrhea again. I will post pictures in a little bit, but it hasn't changed really from what it's been.

Also, his incision is continuing on the path it has been on, and looks very good. I think it's almost fully closed. I will post pictures of that later as well.

Thanks again everyone for the support, and assistance.


----------



## woogyboogy

*I HAVE VERY GOOD NEWS THAT I WILL POST SOON...
*
But first I need to take my boy for a walk, he is very hyper right now.

For now, I will leave you in suspense. Just know that the news is very good. :happyboogie:


----------



## joneser

Ill be sipping Blue Moon Harvest Pumpkin Ale #2 in celebration of this news. Hurry!! :toasting:


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, just got back not to long ago from our walk...I'll just leave these pictures here.



















We aren't going to get to excited yet, because it's only been this one time. Hopefully it will be consistent and we can start worrying a lot less about his BMs :hammer:

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Sunflowers

That is a beautiful poop! I have been known to text my friends pictures of dog poop, in celebration. 

Those of us who have bashed our heads against the wall with dogs having bad poops can completely relate.


----------



## woogyboogy

Sunflowers said:


> That is a beautiful poop! I have been known to text my friends pictures of dog poop, in celebration.
> 
> Those of us who have bashed our heads against the wall with dogs having bad poops can completely relate.


Yes, I can totally relate! I've been in close contact with one of my good medical friends throughout this, and I constantly send him poop pictures...

I never thought that at 24 years old, I would be this excited about poop...

But also, we aren't getting that excited until it starts to become consistent. If tomorrow morning it is firm...I will feel so much better.


----------



## katieliz

yay! tootsie-roll poops!!!


----------



## woogyboogy

katieliz said:


> yay! tootsie-roll poops!!!


Yes, you can say we're pretty happy over here!:happyboogie:


----------



## llombardo

:thumbup:


woogyboogy said:


> Yes, you can say we're pretty happy over here!:happyboogie:


 :thumbup:


----------



## woogyboogy

Good morning everyone,

Just got back from a walk with Loki. He had a bowel movement, the first couple were formed, and then the rest was mushy.

That's ok with us though, we aren't expecting immediate changes, as long as it's not consistent diarrhea we're ok with that.

Also, his incision is still looking great. 

I will keep everyone updated. Thanks again for everything.


----------



## LisaT

GREAT looking wound, or lack thereof!

Good on the stool progress too, hope it continues :fingerscrossed:


----------



## carmspack

I was thinking , drawing on some experience with a professional sled dog musher who ran the Iditarod (many times) and the Yukon Quest (once) , and the panel of specialized vets and eager vet students writing papers, that the change in stool - MAY be caused by Loki taking the walk.

He is still in recovery . 

The first picture that you sent to me by my email address and the last one on the forum were similar in that they began in the tootsie-roll and then became a patty.

Maybe because the dog is still in recovery , he gets physically excited (mildly stressed) by activity , his peristaltic rhythm is sped up, his stool is too fast in transit and water and bile salts are not recycled to the liver .
Yellow unformed stool.

Immodium retards the peristaltic movement holding the stool in the lower intestine so that water, bile and electrolytes are recycled - forming stool.

That is a chemical block.

All the rice , and fibrous material provide the same effect - but they are a mechanical block.

See what happens if you let the dog lounge in the yard until after he has done his stool --- see what condition it is in --- then take him for a walk.


----------



## woogyboogy

LisaT said:


> GREAT looking wound, or lack thereof!
> 
> Good on the stool progress too, hope it continues :fingerscrossed:


Thanks Lisa, I'm about to post new pictures from tonight.


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> I was thinking , drawing on some experience with a professional sled dog musher who ran the Iditarod (many times) and the Yukon Quest (once) , and the panel of specialized vets and eager vet students writing papers, that the change in stool - MAY be caused by Loki taking the walk.
> 
> He is still in recovery .
> 
> The first picture that you sent to me by my email address and the last one on the forum were similar in that they began in the tootsie-roll and then became a patty.
> 
> Maybe because the dog is still in recovery , he gets physically excited (mildly stressed) by activity , his peristaltic rhythm is sped up, his stool is too fast in transit and water and bile salts are not recycled to the liver .
> Yellow unformed stool.
> 
> Immodium retards the peristaltic movement holding the stool in the lower intestine so that water, bile and electrolytes are recycled - forming stool.
> 
> That is a chemical block.
> 
> All the rice , and fibrous material provide the same effect - but they are a mechanical block.
> 
> See what happens if you let the dog lounge in the yard until after he has done his stool --- see what condition it is in --- then take him for a walk.



This is definitely a very possible idea, and it makes great sense.

However, later in the day today, Loki and I were just sitting outside, not to much physical activity, maybe an occasional Kong toss here and there, then after about 10 minutes, he walked to the side of the yard and had this stool;










It was formed at first, but then went to a pudding consistency.

I do believe that we are on the right track, however it is just going to take longer than a couple days.

Also, no changes with his incision, it still looks great, so there is no reason to take pictures, it is completely healed up.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

That poop may not be the the best looking poop on the block but it sure isnt the worst looking poop either! 
Its got some solid form to it.


----------



## woogyboogy

misslesleedavis1 said:


> That poop may not be the the best looking poop on the block but it sure isnt the worst looking poop either!
> Its got some solid form to it.


Yeah I couldn't agree more. It has been much better than the past couple weeks, so we can't really complain. Thanks for the compliment!


----------



## Juliem24

I agree with Carmspack. When recovering the first poops of the day are formed, as the day goes on, particularly with activity, they get mushier. The good news is Loki's having formed stools. It seems to be getting better.
I wish I could see how people are reacting to you taking pictures of your dogs poop! They are probably moving away, very slowly....


----------



## carmspack

if they ever come out with smello-vision computer screens !


----------



## woogyboogy

Juliem24 said:


> I agree with Carmspack. When recovering the first poops of the day are formed, as the day goes on, particularly with activity, they get mushier. The good news is Loki's having formed stools. It seems to be getting better.
> I wish I could see how people are reacting to you taking pictures of your dogs poop! They are probably moving away, very slowly....


This may be the case, unfortunately we haven't seen enough consistent firm stools with Loki to really know if that's the case or not with us.



carmspack said:


> if they ever come out with smello-vision computer screens !


That will be the day!


----------



## woogyboogy

I will post pictures tomorrow, we've been very busy. Loki was very active today, usually he will take a couple 1 hour naps a day, but today he only slept for about 45 minutes. He just wanted to play, play, play!

Loki's first stool this morning, 7am, was semi-formed. First couple drops where formed, then the rest was pudding consistency. Then around 6pm same thing, except more pudding consistency, and less firm. Then he just had another stool at 9pm, and it was pretty much all pudding consistency.

Like I said I'll post pictures tomorrow, but we still feel like we aren't going backwards, so that's a good thing.

Thanks again everyone.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, It's been a couple of days since my last post. Yesterday was beautiful here in FL, high 60s, low 70s, so we were pretty much outside ALL day with Loki. He definitely loves the "colder" weather, as do we!

Anyways, Loki's incision still looks great, no returning wound or anything irregular, so that really makes us wonder if it was an infected stitch, which is great news.

Now, Loki's stools...:hammer: I ALMOST have more pictures of Loki's stools, than I do of him!... just kidding. However... they are really consistent with the first drop being formed, and then the rest just pudding consistency. I guess it's a step in the right direction as far as progress?

Yesterday, we took him on about a 3 mile walk, and he just DIDN'T want to stop. The weather was so nice that he just wanted to be outside, which worked for us. Then later in the day we noticed Loki starting to "baby" his left rear leg. Not really sure if it was from the long walk or not, but he has continued to do it today...?

Today I took him to the park to train him around distractions, and he was still favoring his rear leg, so I went easy on his training, and only did sit-stays, and eye contact under heavy distractions. All day today though, he has seemed to be "under the weather" I had to force him to go to the park with me, but once we were there, he was fine. Not sure if he is somewhat depressed from his rear leg bothering him...I swear it's always something with this boy...

Anyways...here are some pictures from this weekend, and today, some pleasant, and some not so pleasant...

This was from our walk yesterday,


















This was from the park today.









* Pictures...considered yourself warned.*

*10-4*









*10-5*









*10-6*








^ This mornings BM had me a little thrown off...the first couple drops were fully formed, and then the rest was "wateryish"??/


I'm all ears to any input/feedback.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## carmspack

Loki is male and he is the right age - that rear leg thing might be a touch of pano.


looking good, Loki has a nice looking family !


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> Loki is male and he is the right age - that rear leg thing might be a touch of pano.
> 
> 
> looking good, Loki has a nice looking family !


Thanks Carmen!

Yeah Pano is definitely a possibility since he's already shown signs of it in the front left leg a couple months ago.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

He is looking awesome! Also great to put faces to his story.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Ick, I have to remember not to look at this thread when eating my dinner! 

Can you tell us exactly what you are doing right now to address the diarrhea? Because you clearly still have a problem that needs to be addressed.


----------



## LisaT

BowWowMeow said:


> Can you tell us exactly what you are doing right now to address the diarrhea? Because you clearly still have a problem that needs to be addressed.


Yes, this.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, just a very quick update.

Loki had a firm stool last night, this morning, and tonight. So that is great news.

We have started giving him Pumpkin, Goat Milk, Slippery Elm, and some of Carmen's products like Phyt'n Chance, Sh-emp Oil, and Sunday Sundae.

Not sure if things are starting to come around, but he had more energy today, than I've ever seen before.

I will give more of a detailed update tomorrow.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## carmspack

good ! hope it continues.

"We have started giving him Pumpkin, Goat Milk, Slippery Elm, and some of Carmen's products like Phyt'n Chance, Sh-emp Oil, and Sunday Sundae.

Not sure if things are starting to come around, but he had more energy today, than I've ever seen before.







"

order determined by what the dog needed to do to turn around.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Yay, solid poop!


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone,

Since my last post 2 days ago, Loki has consistently had firm stool both in the morning and evening.

Hopefully with the food change and the natural products from Carmen, he can continue to stay on this track. The insane amount of energy he had the other day has continued on these past couple days, and he is just non stop, but we love it!

Also, he isn't limping anymore, which makes me think he pulled a muscle or something on our 3 mile walk last Sunday.

He is a picture of him the other night when I was typing my response on the forums, he was just staring at me like, "Are you gunna play with me or what?"











Thanks again everyone and I will continue to give updates, hopefully they continue to be positive!


----------



## carmspack

excellent !!! 

when is your next vet visit ?


----------



## woogyboogy

carmspack said:


> excellent !!!
> 
> when is your next vet visit ?


Definitely excellent news!

Next week sometime, I have to call and make the appointment. Also, there was a couple CC's left of his Pythium Immunotherapy and our Vet wanted to administer it to Loki, otherwise she is going to throw it away.

I will keep everyone updated!


----------



## LisaT

I am going to be interested in seeing if the digestive system goes "off" a bit after the vaccine is administered....

I'm really glad that things are stabilizing - a good comprehensive gut protocol can make a huge difference!


----------



## Moriah

Excellent news!!! Loki is looking handsome and he is sure one loved dog:wub:


----------



## Linda1270

Great news, so happy to hear that Loki is doing so much better! Love the photos of him, he is such a handsome boy. He's got that lazy sit going on in the last photo you posted of him. Tess does that a lot too!


----------



## katieliz

GREAT NEWS!!! Checking in, sending hugs and a sigh of relief, looks like a corner has been turned. To say "nice job" is an understatement. I am so happy for you and your boy!


----------



## Lobo dog

He looks great! Such a handsome boy  when you started this topic he was 5 1/2 months, how old is getting now? He is huge! I was wondering how much he weighed at 5 1/2 months v.s now? My boy will be 6 months this Thursday so I was curious about weights and ages  thanks


----------



## LisaT

How is he doing now? Did you give the last of the vaccine? Any effect on the digestive system?


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, 

Sorry it's been so long since my last post. But in our case, that's a good thing because Loki is doing *excellent*!:happyboogie:

He has had consistent FIRM stools for the past 4-5 days, and his energy levels are through the roof!

We are going tomorrow for our Vet appointment for his remaining immunotherapy.

Hopefully the good news will continue! We are so relieved, and EXTREMELY thankful for everyone on here!


----------



## woogyboogy

Lobo dog said:


> He looks great! Such a handsome boy  when you started this topic he was 5 1/2 months, how old is getting now? He is huge! I was wondering how much he weighed at 5 1/2 months v.s now? My boy will be 6 months this Thursday so I was curious about weights and ages  thanks


He just hit 9 months 4 days ago, time flies by! He was about 55-60lbs at 6 months, and now he is around 85-90lbs. Thanks!


----------



## woogyboogy

It's amazing that when I first started this thread it was exactly 105 days ago today... and that's how long it has taken to get everything back to "normal"! 

So thankful for everyone here! We wouldn't be here without you!:hugs:


----------



## osito23

Loki looks great!! I'm so glad to hear that he's improving.  Thanks for sharing the pics and the updates on him.


----------



## wyoung2153

Looking good! thanks for the update! So happy to hear he's getting better!


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## woogyboogy

Thanks again everyone for all of the support and assistance!

I will keep everyone updated, and hopefully we can finally start to look forward to a normal, happy, healthy life for Loki!


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## Moriah

I just love happy endings/beginnings!!


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## CindyMDBecker

High fives & fist pumps to all of you! He is GORGEOUS. So glad to hear he's doing great. You are a HERO of a dog owner. This news really makes my day happy.


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## LisaT

VERY happy to hear how well he is doing - great news!


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## llombardo

He is such a beautiful dog


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## woogyboogy

Thanks so much everyone! He is still continuing to do excellent!


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## Oliver'smom

Just checked the thread, so happy to hear things are looking better in the poop department! Now hopefully you can all move onto all the other many things in life with a dog that make the union so special.


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## woogyboogy

Hey everyone!

Loki is still continuing to do great. We just got back from his Vet appointment, and she said everything seemed excellent. She also administered what was remaining of his immunotherapy serum, which was about a quarter of what he normally received.

I will keep everyone updated, Thanks again for everything!!!


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## LisaT

Great update, very glad to hear all is still well. Hoping he is on his way to complete wellness!


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## osito23

He's so handsome! Glad to hear he's doing so well


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## OTSteve

Sorry to hear about your dog's issue. Any news?


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## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, just wanted to give another *positive* update.

Loki has continued to stay on a clear path. His stomach issues seem to be 100% back to "normal". No diarrhea in quite some time now, it's nothing but firm

His energy levels are still crazy, and we ALMOST have a tough time keeping up with him:wild: His overall mood is completely different from several months ago. He is so happy all the time, it's so amazing to see him this way.

We are just so thrilled that he is back on the path where he needs to be.

Thanks again everyone for all of the support and help throughout this bump in the road! I will continue to update periodically.


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## JakodaCD OA

wonderful news


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## woogyboogy

JakodaCD OA said:


> wonderful news


Thank you Jakoda! Couldn't have done it without everyone here!


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## CindyMDBecker

This year when I reflect on what I am thankful for at the Thanksgiving dinner THIS is on the very top of my list. This happy outcome and how wonderful you both are as owners to Loki. Warms the heart. So happy for all of you! And what a support team you have here on this forum. Awesome people for sure.


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## woogyboogy

CindyMDBecker said:


> This year when I reflect on what I am thankful for at the Thanksgiving dinner THIS is on the very top of my list. This happy outcome and how wonderful you both are as owners to Loki. Warms the heart. So happy for all of you! And what a support team you have here on this forum. Awesome people for sure.


I cannot agree with you more! We are so thankful for everything. This has been such a long, stressful, and trying year for us, but we are beyond grateful that everything has worked itself out, and we can now look past all of this. It was a learning experience that I hope we, or anyone for that matter never has to go through. We never thought in a million years anything like this would happen to us, especially with our very first dog, but they say everything happens for a reason.

Again, we are so thankful and appreciative of everyone on here because really, without this forum, we would not be here.:hugs: So thank you everyone who helped, and for all of the support! 


P.S. Loki still continues to thrive, and now with "cooler" weather down here in Florida, he is full of new energy we've never experienced before!:gsdbeggin:


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## woogyboogy

Hey everyone, I thought I'd chime in here...

We just got back from the Vet, just a normal checkup. He is still doing excellent. He just had his 10 month old birthday on Sunday, and he weighed 87lbs today at the vet.

His stools are still very consistent with the firmness, but every once in a while he will have a little bit of runny-ish stool. He still has so much energy, and continues to do great. We haven't come across any new issues, knock on wood.

I will keep everyone updated, and thanks again for everything!


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## Aviorwolf

Great news! And a happy 10 months from Nik, his fellow 10-month-er!


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## Hineni7

First, extremely happy to hear Loki is doing so well and looks so handsome!! I'm sorry I didn't read all 53 pages (yikes) and basically read the first and last page (and saw the pics).. What was wrong? Was it a bite from a spider or something? Sorry for being lazy and not reading through it all (half head in shame).. 

Again, happy to see how well he is doing!


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## woogyboogy

Aviorwolf said:


> Great news! And a happy 10 months from Nik, his fellow 10-month-er!


Thank you so much for everything! Happy 10 months to Nik!


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## woogyboogy

Hineni7 said:


> First, extremely happy to hear Loki is doing so well and looks so handsome!! I'm sorry I didn't read all 53 pages (yikes) and basically read the first and last page (and saw the pics).. What was wrong? Was it a bite from a spider or something? Sorry for being lazy and not reading through it all (half head in shame)..
> 
> Again, happy to see how well he is doing!


Thanks for the support. 

He contracted a rare and deadly infectious disease called Pythiosis from going into a pond with stagnant water. It is a water mold infection, somewhat similar to a flesh eating bacteria. He had to get it surgically removed, and then he was immediately put on an immunological serum. We are pretty positive that he is cured, but won't be able to test his blood until June 2015.

Here is a good article about Pythiosis; "Swamp cancer": The increasing threat of equine pythiosis


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## Hineni7

Wow! I've heard of it before (I train horses) but never have seen a case.. Do you live in a humid climate? Soo happy he is doing so well, what a nightmare to go through! Praise God he is such a fighter (and a handsome lad). Praying it never returns!


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## kelbonc

Thanks for sharing the article on Pythiosis. It was very interesting. Glad to read that Loki is doing better. What an experience this must of been.


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## jwmedic

VERY VERY glad to hear that Loki is doing well!!


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## woogyboogy

Hineni7 said:


> Wow! I've heard of it before (I train horses) but never have seen a case.. Do you live in a humid climate? Soo happy he is doing so well, what a nightmare to go through! Praise God he is such a fighter (and a handsome lad). Praying it never returns!


Yeah I live in Southwest Florida, so a humid climate is an understatement haha.

He is the strongest dog I've ever seen in my life. He is doing excellent, and certainly in the best condition in his life.

Thanks again!


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## woogyboogy

kelbonc said:


> Thanks for sharing the article on Pythiosis. It was very interesting. Glad to read that Loki is doing better. What an experience this must of been.


Thank you so much. That article was definitely one of the more definitive ones that I had read, and I've spent so many countless hours doing research:headbang:

It most definitely has been a complete roller coaster, especially for us, as he is our first dog. But it is something we can hopefully look back on in several years, and say wow...we got through all of that.

Thanks again!


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## woogyboogy

jwmedic said:


> VERY VERY glad to hear that Loki is doing well!!


Thank you so much! We are too you have no idea!


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## KentuckyFenway

Just wondering how Loki is doing. Hope everything is good in your world.


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## woogyboogy

KentuckyFenway said:


> Just wondering how Loki is doing. Hope everything is good in your world.


Thanks for checking up. Loki is doing excellent. No possible signs of returning Pythium, and its been 179 days since his surgery.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

woogyboogy said:


> Thanks for checking up. Loki is doing excellent. No possible signs of returning Pythium, and its been 179 days since his surgery.


:happyboogie:

Susan


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## LisaT

Just a heads up in case anyone knows a dog with, or has had pythiosis. One university is trying to do some data collection, that would benefit all of us, so owners of affected dogs hould participate in the survey: https://ufl.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eaGSpixZQXAEyA5

As far as I know, Loki is still doing well and is one of the lucky ones, thank goodness!


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## llombardo

LisaT said:


> Just a heads up in case anyone knows a dog with, or has had pythiosis. One university is trying to do some data collection, that would benefit all of us, so owners of affected dogs hould participate in the survey: https://ufl.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eaGSpixZQXAEyA5
> 
> As far as I know, Loki is still doing well and is one of the lucky ones, thank goodness!


I sure hope so, that was so scary and crazy!!


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## carmspack

there are many things now that are crazy and scary -- co-infections -- the basic "answer" will be to keep the immune system optimized which was part of this dogs recovery - two pronged attack , anti-parasitic and immune


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## Magwart

One thing that the article doesn't mention is that there's a different form than skin lesions: this fungus also can attack the intestines. That version of the disease is almost always fatal unless you are very lucky and have it land in a part of the intestine that can be fully removed...which is rare.

I had a talk with our rescue's vet about one we had die of a pythium infection in his intestine last year (Louisiana). He was young (a year old), healthy, active, and caught the infection long after adoption--where he'd had good care. He had gone to swim a lot in a local park that has swimming pond for dogs. I think that's probably where he got it.

He came from a litter of 7 born in a public shelter, then raised in a foster home and adopted out around 12 weeks. All were healthy and happy puppies--no problems at all, despite the shelter birth. He died of pythium in the intestine at 12 months. The other 6 have remained healthy, as has mom. 

By the time he showed symptoms (vomiting occasionally), a part of his duodenum was already black and dead. Worse, this fungus likes to find inoperable places in the intestines, making treatment impossible. We had an inconclusive ultra-sound for a suspected blockage, so the vet went in to do exploratory surgery...and that's how she found the pythium in the intestine. He had to be euthanized on the table.

The vet told me this fungus is common in the environment in our area. It's not rare at all. If you test any pond, you'll find it. What isn't known is why one dog that swims in a pond will get it while playing and swimming, but 100 other other dogs won't. It's very mysterious. Maybe he swam too soon after his monthly HW prevention or vaccination, maybe he had a hidden genetic variation that made him susceptible, maybe he just drank a lot of that pond water after a storm. Our vet studied with Dr. Grooters at LSU, one of the experts on this awful disease, and there just aren't any answers as to why some dogs get it internally, and others don't.


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## LisaT

I believe that some dogs with the intestinal version may have beat it with the vaccine therapy, which I a completely different direction than Grooters takes. BUT I suspect that in most cases, the intestinal version is found too late. This organism is much nastier than a fungus it seems...

I agree, it's always a mystery why some get sick, and others don't. Some are more deficient than others


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## woogyboogy

Hello everyone, 

I know it has been a long time since I've posted, and honestly I try not to visit this thread for obvious reasons. However, I do help people whenever I hear that their pups have contracted this horrible disease.

I just wanted to let everyone know that Loki is doing amazing. He is honestly the best dog my fiance and I could ever ask for, and he brings so much joy to our lives everyday. He is a fighter, and continues to amaze us every day. 

Thank you all here at this forum for the support and help, because honestly I'm not sure I would be writing this post if it wasn't for all of you. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts.


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## llombardo

I was wondering about you guys last week. So glad to hear the update and what a beautiful picture!


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## carmspack

keep up the good work.

wonderful to hear .


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## CindyMDBecker

Wonderful news! Nice to hear from you ... love the picture! He is so handsome.


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## woogyboogy

Thank you all so very much!


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