# Dog owners the problem, not the dogs.



## ctx57 (Sep 15, 2009)

Came to the conclusion today, that it's the dog owners that are a problem and not their dogs.
Well, today i put the muzzle on Poppy, bless her she was very good about it, anyway i let her off the leash as i knew any other dog we would meet would also be off leash and at least she had the muzzle on, so at least if she chased, she couldn't bite.
We went to Chobham common today, which is a lovely walk for the dogs and at least we can see other dogs approaching, Ollie & Poppy were running around in some big puddles when i saw a guy with his Lab coming our way, so i called Poppy over and made her sit ( i was holding her collar ), we were off the footpath and well away from the guy & his dog, so i thought great i will just keep her calm until they pass.
The dog had other ideas and came rushing right up to poor Poppy, she was now lunging and screaming at him and the dog then turns nasty on her, when i look up to the dogs owner for some help, i find him laughing, of course he's not worried as Poppy has a muzzle on.
Ollie decided to put an end to this & came in with a massive body slam to the other dog that sent him flying ( he soon ran off then ), but what an idiot the guy was, not once did he try to call his dog away.
We then met a couple of greyhounds, that for some reason, just decided to stand in front of Poppy and stare at her, i had her sat holding her collar, trying to keep her calm, but again the owner didn't call them away.She got very cross at this and stared lunging again. 
On both times if the dogs had been called away,Poppy would have been quite calm, what is wrong with dog owners, i would never let mine just run up without checking with the owner first that it was ok ( apart from when Ollie decides to take over the situation, like today, he seems to know when to step in ), my husband said Ollie just looked up into his face to say enough is enough now, i will stop this.









So instead of the muzzle i will go back to using the pet corrector spray, and use it when any dog comes near us, the problem iv'e had in the past id that other dog owners look at me like i'm the devil, probably being that they don't realise it's just air coming out of the can, one guy actually thought i was using pepper spray







, i just want to do the best for Poppy, so we will keep on going.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Those kind of owners should be caged or rather have a group of people come jump on them and see how it feels!









Thanks for the idea about the spray! And glad everyone is okay.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

These people are a problem, but until you have Poppy's dog-reactiveness under control, I would not put her in a situation where these kind of scenarios can happen. Really isn't fair to her. Everytime she is confronted by another dog, and she reacts, the behaviour gets more ingrained. I know you want to include her in your walks and activities with Ollie, but it may be better to just leave her home, and take her out to places where she does not have to deal with off-leash dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Lucia. Poppy needs some one on one time w/ you, and no other distractions for a bit to gain some confidence. 
Then her outings should be on the fringe of activity until she is secure enough to be in more populated areas. The muzzle isn't fair to her either, when a dog is rushing her, she has no self-protection in her mind, so she is all the more reactive. I know the muzzle is for everyones safety, but getting her away from others is safer for HER.


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## ctx57 (Sep 15, 2009)

The pet corrector spray is really good for keeping dogs at a distance ( although a little pricey, £9.99 for a can of air )it doesn't last long either, but like i said, other people do look at you like you are the devil, i need to get a bit stronger and try to not care what people think though.
I did try an empty plastic bottle with stones in and shook it every time a dog came running over, but this really scared Poppy, so gave up on this one, if people were a little more undertanding, life would be better.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

absolutely totally agree
there are NO bad dogs only bad owners


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Forget other dog owners, you can't do anything to control them - the only one you can work with is Poppy & that's where I'd focus my energy: is she in any classes at this time? if not, find <u>any</u> class that has a great trainer - Poppy needs positive experiences with strange dogs in order to learn alternate behaviors & well run classes are the place for this.
Once you've got a couple more classes in with Poppy, look for a class that has a 'drop in', so dogs are changing every class.

In the meantime I'd try to schedule my walks (time, location) so that we'd hope to meet very few dogs (I don't know where you live so maybe this is just not possible); even if you go back to the spray, I suspect you're telegraphing your tension down the leash (get a trainer you trust to walk your dog under similar circumstances & look for differences in Poppy's behavior).

Even in areas with leash laws, there are <u>always</u> argumentative idiots that insist on their _friendly dog_ meeting your dog








I finally resorted to saying that my old guy (who was very well behaved but *did not like * other dogs) was under treatment for an infectious disease & the vet had suggested that other dogs stay their distance ... this worked surprsingly well


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're blaming the owners for your dogs problems.
maybe even with the muzzle Poppy can't be around other dogs.
you're in an area where dogs are off leash but you want the 
other people to call their dogs away from yours. your dog has a problem to the point were she needs to be muzzled. 

did you do all of things that were neccessary to have a dog that's well trained and socialized ? if you didn't, as you know the dog
owners are the problems and not the dogs.


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## ctx57 (Sep 15, 2009)

Poppy did quite well at dog classes, the only thing that bothered her was when another dog was doing a recall and ran past her, she couldn't handle the running past, if the dog walked past she was fine, but as soon as any one of them was running, that was it, the lunging and screamimg.
We then started taking Ollie & Poppy to the same class, this didn't work out well at all







, we ended up leaving as our 2 were disrupting the class too much.
The classes start back up next week, the trainer has said to bring Ollie and get him through first & then Poppy.
Ollie was really misbehaving at classes last time as he had Poppy there, he always used to go on his own, so it was like he was showing off.
I think i will ask the trainer if we can work with Poppy every other week and see how that goes.

Poppy is a rescue GSD and hadn't been around any other dogs at all as a puppy, so i do blame her previous owners for this.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

It may be that Poppy needs lots and lots of good experiences in a safe environment such as a positive methods dog training class just for fearful dogs, before she is ready for an area where dogs will be offlead. This way, you'll have experience under her belt, and a chance to try to help her learn another response to seeing another dog, then later perhaps, another dog running up. Some fearful dogs never are ready for an area where offlead dogs can gallump up to them. Another idea for excersise might be an enclosed tennis court or soccer field. In the meantime, a reactive/fearful dog class might be just what Poppy needs.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sunkissed girl
> Poppy is a rescue GSD and hadn't been around any other dogs at all as a puppy, so i do blame her previous owners for this.


Unfortunatly, if Poppy were to bite someone elses dog you wont be able to " Blame the previous owners". Good job for being responsible, and being aware that Poppy might get nasty with other dogs, and putting a muzzle on her.

I feel ya though. Other owners need to be a little more aware of their dogs, and not allow them to just run up to people or other dogs. I always hated that at dog parks. 

Good luck!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My 2 cents:,,You need to keep Poppy out of situations where she is thrown into "defense" mode. 

By subjecting her to other dogs that are rude and in her face, you are making her more defensive and less confident.

Pepper spray may deter a charging dog, but the dog is still charging, whether it turns away or not. It's coming for her.

I would get her around very calm easy going non reactive dogs and I wouldn't be taking her to places where you might encounter offleash rude ones..

Just my opinion..


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAMy 2 cents:,,You need to keep Poppy out of situations where she is thrown into "defense" mode.
> 
> By subjecting her to other dogs that are rude and in her face, you are making her more defensive and less confident.
> 
> ...


Couldnt say it any better


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAMy 2 cents:,,You need to keep Poppy out of situations where she is thrown into "defense" mode.
> ...


Me either.

Also, frankly, I think you are making a big mistake by allowing a muzzled dog off-leash. If you can't control her and the surrounding environment when she is on leash so that she does need a muzzle, than you cannot have her off-leash. It is, IMO, as simple as that.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

do you think people should train
and socalize their dogs so they can
be around other animals and people
or buy some spray? i wonder what would happen
if you didn't take your dog around other dogs or people
untill it's trained or socialized?

it always seems like it's the other people or the other dog when you have a dog that's not trained or socialized. instead of always
passing the buck train and socialize your dog before blaming someone else or their dog for your dogs bad behaviour.



> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosThose kind of owners should be caged or rather have a group of people come jump on them and see how it feels!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with jarn,,I wouldn't let her offleash unless you are in an area where there is NO CHANCE of running into another dog be it friendly or not.

She could be a huge liability if she decided that little yorkie was a threat and grabbed him once by the neck.

Her behaviors may be no fault of her own, due to her past abuse, however, to help her overcome or at the very atleast "learn to tolerate' other dogs in her proximity, you need to protect her from those triggers and make all her encounters PLEASANT ones vs one's that she feels she has to defend herself...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're at a dog park. the dogs are there to play. they're
off leash, you know that before you go. do you really go
to a dog park to keep your dog leashed?



> Originally Posted By: The Sergeant
> 
> 
> sunkissed girl said:
> ...


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Where you live, might there be a Reactive Rover or Feisty Fido class? It would be using positive methods to help her anxiety. Just a thought!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

this is a good read if anyone's interested
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1310590&page=0&fpart=1


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The other guy was a jerk not to come and take control of his dog, and maybe offer the same advice that the people here are giving. 

If the dog needs to be muzzled she should not be where off lead dogs are likely to be. Not only is this unfair to her, but if she needs to be muzzled she probably is more fearful than aggressive. Putting her in the situation with her only defence restricted can actually amp up her fearfullness and subsequent aggression. 

I do not know how old Poppy is, but it sounds like she needs classes -- being in a controlled setting with other people and dogs -- much more than your other dog. 

If there are not enough classes at your regular place to have them in separate classes, how about a second class on a different night for the other dog. Having multiple dogs often means multiple classes. 

I so relate to how they WILL misbehave when they have a pack member in the class. I think generally it is best to do the training separately.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

I'd try to get them into separate classes: if you live in an area where doggy classes are few & far between, then obviously you need to work with what's available ... getting Ollie sorted will help both you & Ollie; ask the trainer if Poppy can just hang out with a friend (who she may be better for) or your partner or in her crate with the human accomplice stuffing her with treats for the duration of the class (make sure they aren't going to upset her tummy & skimp on her dinner that night - are you able to get the dehydrated chicken, beef, lamb meat/liver/lung etc type treats? so she's getting extra protein but not carbs & fats etc).

You can start getting both dogs ready for this at home, by crating one dog & working the other dog in the same room BUT obviously start at a place where you have the trainee's focus (or maybe that's the first lesson ...)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I have a rescued dog that was not properly socialized in general, and in particular to other dogs - I also suspect that she may have been removed from the litter too early. It took a TON of training but she is a different dog today. Even with all that, she will NEVER be the kind of dog that can run off-leash around strange dogs. And yes, perhaps she would not have any of her dog-issues if her first owners had done their job porperly with her, but that is not in my control. How I deal with her now, and what steps I take on a daily basis to deal with her IS within my control, and that is what I focus on. 

The on-going training did wonders for her self-confidence. It gave her alternative behaviours, clear expectations, and put me in a stronger leadership position so that she more easily defered to MY judgements and MY decisions in all situations. 

It isn't like I can just walk her past a barking dog on a loose leash - that will never happen, she will react. What I CAN do is put her in an eye-contact competition heel, and make her heel past the barking dog. I've put so much training on her, she knows to keep position and eye contact, even if the other dog is trying to nip at her tail. Poppy may always need this much control WITH you as a leader to feel safe. It doesn't happen overnight, doesn't happen with gimmicks (muzzle, dog spray), and doesn't happen if you keep doing the same thing with her that you have always done, but has never worked. 

I truly think you want to help Poppy, make her feel safe, allow her to enjoy life to the same degree as Ollie. You wouldn't be here posting and asking for advice. All the advice is sound: they are from people who have had dogs like Poppy. Everytime I read about how Poppy reacted because of a rude dog rushing her, I cringe and feel sorry for her, sorry that you set her up by taking her out where such a thing can happen.

Take a bit of extra time to excercise Poppy away from other dogs, where you can relax and just focus on her. Taking her to classes on alternate day with Ollie is a good idea, glad you are starting to think about these things.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

There is a particular house in my neighborhood where the dogs ALWAYS come charging out off leash at us into the street. Once, Glory was bitten, but I was able to control the situation. The second time Glory was bitten, a dog fight began, which included another neighbor's dog! This neighbor of mine has never corrected her dogs, and instead yells at me about my dog...probably because Glory is bigger, even though she is on a leash. Anyhow, to make a loooooooong story short, I carry pepper spray with me when we walk in our neighborhood, and any dog that comes charging up to us growling and barking.....GETS SPRAYED! I don't have the patience for it anymore after what I have been through, with Glory being bitten several times. I know she could rip any dog in two, but that is not the point. She is on a leash, and she is in training to be a polite dog. I don't take chances with irresponsible dog owners and aggressive dogs.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:The dog had other ideas and came rushing right up to poor Poppy, she was now lunging and screaming at him and the dog then turns nasty on her, when i look up to the dogs owner for some help, i find him laughing, of course he's not worried as Poppy has a muzzle on.
> Ollie decided to put an end to this & came in with a massive body slam to the other dog that sent him flying ( he soon ran off then ), but what an idiot the guy was, not once did he try to call his dog away.


The other guy was being a jerk BUT you also did not take control of the situation. When you're out with a dog, especially one that is reactive and/or dog aggressive, YOU need to be in control. 

Being in control does not mean standing there holding the collar while another dog attacks her, and waiting for your husband or your other dog to take control and shoo the other dog away.

Taking control means YELLING at the other owner to CALL HIS DOG BACK, and if he does not, taking control of the situation and MAKING the dog go back to his owner. Stand in front of Poppy, tell the dog coming toward you LOUDLY "NO! GO AWAY!" and make sure your body posture is slightly forward (dominant) and that you're projecting your voice as if giving a command. That is taking charge, and in most situations, unless people are complete idiots, they will come get their dogs or their dogs will take off and go elsewhere.

I think letting Poppy off-leash muzzled is actually a good idea as she may well react VERY differently off-leash when approached by a dog than on-leash. But at the same time, you're defeating the purpose of that approach if you cling to her collar whenever you meet another dog.

If you're worried about any dog coming up to her, I would recommend that you go to places where you won't be faced with other dogs off-leash.


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## ctx57 (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks for all the posts.
The main thing i want for Poppy is to be a happy content dog.

The idea about using a muzzle was to see if Poppy would react better with being off leash and in doing so making sure she wouldn't be able to harm any other dogs.
We never go to DOG PARKS, because we do not have them near us here in the UK.
The dog parks that i have seen in the USA while iv'e been on vacation are like are what are our childrens playgrounds are like, we do not have any fenced off places like that for dogs.
So we will walk the dogs around local woods & forests etc, most of these areas all have dog walkers, so it is difficult to avoid dogs off leashes.
i know i shouldn't of held Poppy back by the collar when the other dog ran at her & i should have yelled at the stupid guy, but i was trying to be a good dog owner and not allow Poppy to chase, i'm worried what another dog owner might make of a muzzled dog being allowed to be off leash and i'm not too sure what Poppy will do, i do not want her to be bitten.

Anyway we all went for a walk and AGAIN 2 staffies were running at us, not Ollie & my husband, but me & Poppy, so i kicked out & yelled GET AWAY & i really ment it







, the dogs ran off ( poppy was lunging & barking ), but at least the dogs went, i didn't have Poppy muzzled.
When i looked ahead a couple of dog walkers with at least 5 dogs, all called their dogs to them to avoid us, so my yelling must have worked, but i hate to the thought that i will get a bad name for being the mad nasty person with the agressive dog.
i will also keep using the spray ( it's NOT pepper spray, but just a can of air, that makes a loud sound ), people just think it's some kind of pepper spray, again getting a rep for being a bad nasty person.
Whenever we do walk past a dog on a leash & Poppy doesn't react she gets a treat







, so she is fine as long as they are not rushing up to her, that's why i get SO cross when other dog owners allow this to happen.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Have you tried getting Poppy focused on the treat while you're still some distance from the other dogs (I know this won't help when dogs suddenly appear/charge etc) - have something really stinky that Poppy LOVES in your fist, she gets to lick/nudge your hand & then give her the treat when she's really focused ... you could also do this with a toy or tug rather than treats.
Many dogs will back off if you suddenly open an umbrella as they rush up (it's cheaper than the Air Spray







- just remember to desensitize your dogs first)

Have you looked at clicker training?
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm#basic
(there are loads of videos & articles on the net, you can also just do a 'search' her for recommended books etc)

Do you practise NILIF with your dogs?
http://k9deb.com/NILIF.html


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I would not worry about "getting a reputation", to be honest. 

First, you don't want to come across as the mad, screaming person in the first place - you want to be in control and take charge, loudly if needed, not screaming bloody murder. 

And if people ask you WHY you do this, explain to them that you have a reactive dog and do not appreciate people simply letting their dogs run up to you willy-nilly, which is a recipe for disaster even with the friendliest of dogs, as these dogs are strangers invading their space.

It boggles the mind that any place would simply allow their pet owners to let their dogs run loose as they see fit, especially if these are areas used by many people with their dogs and are NOT designated off-leash areas. The safety risks involved in this are just beyond ridiculous.


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