# Alternatives to Clicker Training



## Red.Jekyll (Jun 27, 2012)

To put it simply, Lucius is completely, utterly, totally unresponsive to a clicker, he doesn't even look at it. In fact, the first time, he fell asleep. 

Currently he is responding well to voice and hand commands, however I am soon going to start obedience courses leading up to a family dog course, is it worth trying to associate him with the clicker, or simply continue with voice and hand commands?

I am looking at doing agility and some advanced obedience courses with him as he gets older(year old), so perhaps someone who has experience?

My previous shepherd responded to the clicker better than voice, and would only follow a hand command after the clicker was used. So is it a dog to dog thing?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

never was good with clicker, but mine have always responded well to treats... who wouldn't?


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## Red.Jekyll (Jun 27, 2012)

zyppi said:


> never was good with clicker, but mine have always responded well to treats... who wouldn't?



Haha, he does respond well to treats! I always have a little bag clipped to my belt. 

I am holding off on any major changes in his training until after we go to a trial schutzhund training class next week.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Red.Jekyll said:


> To put it simply, Lucius is completely, utterly, totally unresponsive to a clicker, he doesn't even look at it. In fact, the first time, he fell asleep.


:thinking: How are you using the clicker? I don't understand how he could be responding to treats but not to the clicker if you're using it correctly as a marker for the behavior you want. The click means that he did good and a treat will follow.


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## Red.Jekyll (Jun 27, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: How are you using the clicker? I don't understand how he could be responding to treats but not to the clicker if you're using it correctly as a marker for the behavior you want. The click means that he did good and a treat will follow.


That is what I'm saying Q~Q Perhaps I should try longer to make the association, where he has picked everything up so quickly, maybe I gave up too quickly


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## [nina] (Jun 15, 2012)

you have to get him used to the clicker first just by clicking it and treating him without tricks. I had to do that with my pup so he understood what that click means.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Like Nina said, the first step in clicker training is "loading" the clicker. This is the step where you dog learns that the click means a treat is coming.






You'll know your dog has made this association when he looks for the treat when he hears the clicker. Now you can use the clicker to mark the desired behavior during training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The clicker is a marker, it doesn't give or cue a command. You can do marker training without a clicker for sure (I train both with clicker and the word "yes" but use "yes" as a bridge whereas a clicker for me is not). The dog doesn't really need to acknowledge the clicker as long as he can hear it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Use Yes! as your marker instead of the clicker. That's what I do.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I switched to using the word "yes!" as well. I found the clicker to be cumbersome with one hand on a leash and one hand on a treat or ball. The "mark" of the correct behavior is the important thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I only use the clicker when I am teaching something new, Or if I'm fine tuning something, and really want to catch the smallest movements. I dont' use it for general training.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Red.Jekyll said:


> Perhaps I should try longer to make the association, where he has picked everything up so quickly, maybe I gave up too quickly


How long did you try before giving up? Did you "load" the clicker before using it? As others said it's just a marker, and you can use your voice as a marker instead if you prefer. 

I was introduced to clicker training with Cassidy in 2000/2001, and we were taught to load it first, so the dog has already made the association that a click = treat before we start using it to mark behavior. But I've actually never bothered to do that with Dena, Keefer, or Halo, I just start using it. With a smart, food motivated dog they seem to figure out pretty darned quickly what that sound means, lol! 

I use a verbal marker too, so my dogs understand both.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Few questions/points:
-What are you using for training treats? You may need to vary depending on what your pup is "feeling." Some days we feel like having candy for treats, some days French fries. Dogs also have "hot dog days" or "cheese days" or "JUST FEED ME!!! days."
-Are you training after a meal? If you feed kibble, it's very easy to turn a meal into training rewards.
-How is your timing? If the click comes a half-second or longer after the desired behavior, the click may have come too late and it may be confusing.
-When do you initiate training? Is the pup looking a little floppy or is the pup practically up your butt and pestering you? The pup will be motivated for training if his brain is moving but if he's lolling around, wait until he takes a nap or gets a good romp outside to clear out the cobwebs.
-How is YOUR attitude during clicking? Are you upbeat, brisk, fluid, happy, throwing a party for big successes or stiff, boring, static? When clicker training and refraining from using voice commands or body gestures/signals, facial expressions convey a lot. If you're clicking toward a goal and your pup has a breakthrough, click and jump for joy, grab his favorite toy, then go for a round of tug and fetch and end the session there.
-Try to end clicker sessions BEFORE your pup gets bored and starts to drift.
-ALWAYS end on a good, exciting, WOW note! If the session is slacking, pick something super easy, click for a good response, then give a handful of treats, or play fetch a bit and call the session. Leave them feeling great and leave them wanting more!


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## Red.Jekyll (Jun 27, 2012)

Wow, thanks for all the responses, we tried for the first 2 weeks we had him, marking simple behaviors/commands. However he never seemed to associate the clicker with a behavior and/or treat, in fact it was almost like he became entirely disinterested often turning away and laying down, whereas usually he is very attentive. I actually had a trainer watch me one day, and she said it was very strange(but she didn't mention loading at all, grrr!). Is it possible he simply doesn't like the noise, even with the treat?

I know as a human there are certain sounds that you couldn't pay me enough to listen to repeatedly all day. 

"Yes" as a marker seems to be working(that is what we have used as a marker, and am glad I chose well there!) as soon as he hears that, you can see the excitement of "I did good!", with the behavior repeated, regardless of whether a treat follows or not(usually there is a treat, however I admit to forgetting them on a few walks). 

I never "loaded" it, and sort of feel silly now, and will try that. I was looking into "loading" the clicker more, and see a lot of people reccomending using their "dinner" so they dont get over-weight, I picked up 1/2 calorie and 0 calorie training treats which he seems to adore, should i stop using them? 

He is very food motivated, but he also seems to have a very high drive to please. 

Thanks again for all the responses. With Kita, I always felt like the clicker was more "instant" and recognized as a marker to a good behavior, especially as she was literally moment to moment. 

Sorry I did not explain myself well at first, or still am not. I can try to make a video.

Lucius is my first baby/puppy, so any and all advice is welcome. I have always tried to adopt/rescue older and "trouble" dogs before, and feel silly floundering over a puppy. 

I am going to the MSC on Wednesday, and starting basic obedience as well, but also want to see where I went wrong/incorrect on my own, as well as what I can do better.


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## Red.Jekyll (Jun 27, 2012)

DianaM said:


> Few questions/points:
> -What are you using for training treats? You may need to vary depending on what your pup is "feeling." Some days we feel like having candy for treats, some days French fries. Dogs also have "hot dog days" or "cheese days" or "JUST FEED ME!!! days."
> -Are you training after a meal? If you feed kibble, it's very easy to turn a meal into training rewards.
> -How is your timing? If the click comes a half-second or longer after the desired behavior, the click may have come too late and it may be confusing.
> ...


I have 5 different flavors of soft "training" treats, and when he is a little picky, we have EVO biscuits that I break up into smaller pieces.

Because of my work schedule, and long hours(I'm glad I have a job where he can go with me), training is usually mornings or evenings, and on days off we go down to the pit, where after a session we can romp around in the water and mud for a bit. 

When we did use the clicker it was during/exact time he did the desired behavior, or as close as possible. With "yes" it is often instant, or I try to be as close to instant as I can.

I have never actually not seen my pup excited for a training session, haha, he usually naps when I am at my desk working, but as soon as my attention is on him, or I'm about, he is all business, excited, tail wagging, eyes on. He isn't up my butt, he never has been, but he seems to truly enjoy directives and "work". 

I have always tried to convey my excitement through my facial expressions, and when he makes a breakthrough well, you'd think it was the 4th of July! I have to say I'm a little high energy, i'm firm, but get excited when he learns something new or is doing a good job, and have two toys that he adores and knows are specifically for rewards during training to try and keep it fresh. When he see's those toys, he immediately goes over by the dog "coat rack" and waits for his harness. 

Usually on our way back to the house we play tug of war with, or fetch, depending on which toy. And, of course, roll around in the fields. 

In fact, am I maybe am too relaxed/excitable, and should tone it down? I know when at work and we are in "work mode", he still responds to "normal" or firm commands, and seems very happy with a simple "yes", without any hullaballoo, though when he learns something new, I do let the kids give him hugs which he loves.


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