# How dire is the GSDs situation?



## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Hello all, quickly, just joined. Own an 8 y/o gsd from a pet store/byb. Didnt know any better at the time. Knew enough to look for ofa rating and a straight back. Anyway looking to add another in the next year or so to help keep her young, so ive been here reading. I have found that finding a dog with good bloodlines, good health in those bloodlines, and the right bloodlines being crossed for the good of the breed is very difficult when it shouldnt be. Which led me to this thought process. Sorry if its a little long but im very curious.

Is there enough quality genetic diversity in the breed to be sustainable long term?

If not, how do we go about fixing the issue? 
Crossbreed a top notch female gsd with a male of another breed, with similar traits( physically and mentally) except maybe one that isnt prone to the same health issues as a gsd. Then pick the best of that f1 litter to breed back to gsd. Would it have to be bred back to same mother or a blood relative of hers? Or could it be any gsd?

How many of these crossings would we realistically need to introduce enough new dna to sufficiently help the breed as a whole?

If 87.5% is pure breed, then we would only need 3 generations of breeding back to gsd to get to the point where that dna could be introduced to the breed as a whole.

Is there anyone, who knows way more than me, keeping an eye on this. Planning anything? Wouldnt sooner intervention be better than later?

Do you think the akc could ever be convinced to change breeding requirements, to at least those of germany, in order to slow the destruction of the breed as it was intended to be?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are no reputable breeders that are going to cross breed and create mutts. That's been done to create other breeds and nothing was improved upon.

The AKC has no "breeding requirements" for anything. They are simply a registry. The SV has requirements to prove temperament, drive, conformation and has restrictions on studs that are bred in Germany. After the stud book is closed there, those dogs are often sold to other countries or shipped here to have semen collected. 

There is plenty of genetic diversity and health in our breed. Reputable breeders do all the health testing they possibly can and match studs to the females to compliment the genetics.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

So. If you get a GSD pup in about a year, when the pup is two, your existing pup would be eleven.

Just a thought. That will not keep your eleven year old dog young. It will only immensely stress the .... outta her.

I’ve kept multiples for years, as have most on this board.

It’d be my suggestion that the age disparity you’re looking at is far too great.

My three today are 1, 2 and 6.

Best in whatever decision you make.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

I understand akc is just a registry, but it is the body in america that people look to to know there dog is purebred. And to a lot of people pure bred means quality, not knowing any better. The akc could refuse to register a litter if the parents werent quality, kind of like requiring title to breed in germany. Too many quality dogs come to america to be bred with trash dogs ruining that part of the bloodline. 

As far as crossbreeding, im the furthest from an expert there is, im just learning. But i know that its how many breeds were established in the beginning. And if the mutt goes from mutt to purebred in 3 generations and can improve the health of the breed, why wouldnt they do it? Not arguing, just asking. Probably a reason i dont see, but id like to know.

As far as breeders, im finding a hard time finding any that have bloodlines without at least one or two fast normals and one or two dogs who barely met breeding qualifications with one basic title and a G rating.

Maybe im being too picky but my next dog i want the best the world has to offer in health, balance, and ability. And im willing to wait, travel, and spend for it if i have to. Im extremely open to breeder suggestions if you know one that fits the bill.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Damicodric said:


> So. If you get a GSD pup in about a year, when the pup is two, your existing pup would be eleven.
> 
> Just a thought. That will not keep your eleven year old dog young. It will only immensely stress the .... outta her.
> 
> ...


So i should wait until my current dog dies to get another one? This is my first shepherd but ive done a similar thing with past dogs and its helped keep them active into old age. Something ill definately need to look into now as i had not thought of that before. Thanks


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

And just to be clear im not necessarily advocating for crossbreeding. Ive just read a lot of people mention genetic bottlenecking of the breed and worry about good genetics being muddied by more irresponsible breeders than responsible ones. Eventually it seems that there will be no choice but to breed inferior genetics or get new genetics introduced? Maybe my ignorance has me way off base though.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Unlike the Doodle experts claim, you can't create a purebred in three generations. I think there are many good GSDs to find. It all depends what you are looking for and how to find the breeders. E.g. once, when walking my WD, a young woman stopped me and asked about him. She was so happy to have met him, asked about his temperament and his breeder. Her mother had been looking for this type for a long time. It took me two decades to find this breeder from scratch as I didn't know about this forum. Otherwise I would have had one much sooner.
Regarding the age difference: I would get a good male pup from the opposite sex and see how you oldie responds. Keep them separate for several weeks but in each other's area. If she doesn't take to him, keep them separate. One concern I have about the reason for a new pup is that this dog "keeps your dog young". That is your job IMO. Good luck in deciding. I know that once puppy fever hits, it is really hard to cure it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Hello all, quickly, just joined. Own an 8 y/o gsd from a pet store/byb. Didnt know any better at the time. Knew enough to look for ofa rating and a straight back. Anyway looking to add another in the next year or so to help keep her young, so ive been here reading. I have found that finding a dog with good bloodlines, good health in those bloodlines, and the right bloodlines being crossed for the good of the breed is very difficult when it shouldnt be. Which led me to this thought process. Sorry if its a little long but im very curious.
> 
> Is there enough quality genetic diversity in the breed to be sustainable long term?
> 
> ...


Yes. Our resident byb mutt producer is @berno. He just recently crossed an unproven puppy with no medical testing to an unknown breed female that bites stuff.

Science


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Stxguy26 said:


> So i should wait until my current dog dies to get another one? This is my first shepherd but ive done a similar thing with past dogs and its helped keep them active into old age. Something ill definately need to look into now as i had not thought of that before. Thanks


It does warrant some consideration.

You’ve got an 8 y/o GSD now which has a real life expectancy of 9-12 years of age.

If you acquire a second dog, by the time that second dog is two (wide open), your 8 y/o will be in the middle of its life expectancy.

“Keeping her young” at eleven years old with a 2 y/o in the home just seems to be completely contradictory to me.

Your skills, attention, oversight, situation, etc all play a key role.

I’m not saying don’t get a pup. What I am saying is your reasoning in doing so - keeping the other young - might be misguided.

There are no absolutes.

Again, best to you.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

“Straight back” doesn’t mean anything. Anyone who uses that term doesn’t know much. There is quite a bit of genetic diversity in the breed. If you want to add diversity, you can outcross to different lines. The akc stance is that they are a registry. They only determine that the dog comes from purebred lines. There is no guarantee of quality. It’s up to the buyer to ultimately educate themselves and on breeders to produce quality dogs. I’m curious where you get this notion that all dogs produced in the US are crap. As for bringing in a puppy, remember the time, attention, and money you to give to that puppy, you can’t give to your other dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stxguy26 said:


> And just to be clear im not necessarily advocating for crossbreeding. Ive just read a lot of people mention genetic bottlenecking of the breed and worry about good genetics being muddied by more irresponsible breeders than responsible ones. Eventually it seems that there will be no choice but to breed inferior genetics or get new genetics introduced? Maybe my ignorance has me way off base though.


If you buy from a reputable breeder then you won't need to worry. yes, there is bottlenecking but there is bottlenecking in everything. Reputable breeders take that into consideration. You'll never stop the irresponsible breeders. All you can do is not support them.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Yes. Our resident byb mutt producer is @berno. He just recently crossed an unproven puppy with no medical testing to an unknown breed female that bites stuff.
> 
> Science


Well thats not quite what i was suggesting, but point taken. And one would expect a percentage of the first few litters to be undesireable, thats where the careful selection and rebreeding would heavily come into play. And i suppose youre not even guaranteed one pup that has the mix youre looking for, so it very well could take more than 3 generations if it ever worked. 

Just kind of my worst case scenario thinking i guess.

So is the dilution of quality genetics by inferior genetics through poor breeding practices not as big a deal as i was led to believe?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Reputable breeders do not use inferior genetics from poor breeding practices.

Look up Shiloh Shepherds and King Shepherds. There is nothing superior about those dogs who were created as you suggested.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Purebred really means nothing and AKC will provide papers to any pups whose parents are AKC registered. I'm not aware of them refusing to register litters based on health or temperament concerns. It is pretty much a sham IMO. Not an advocate of the SV either. It comes down to knowledgeable breeders. Some of the best working dogs are not purebred and don't have a registry or papers.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Damicodric said:


> It does warrant some consideration.
> 
> You’ve got an 8 y/o GSD now which has a real life expectancy of 9-12 years of age.
> 
> ...


Its not my only reason. My dog an i are very active as it is i dont need a puppy to ensure that. I like a puppy to come into the home and be able to see what is expected of him as well as be taught by me. Ive found it to be effective in the past. They always get plenty of individual time and im very aware of the size difference and puppies being annoying to adult dogs. Im pretty confident in that aspect. However i really do not want to cause my adult any undue stress, especially her last few years. So its something i need to seriously consider.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Stxguy26 said:


> Its not my only reason. My dog an i are very active as it is i dont need a puppy to ensure that. I like a puppy to come into the home and be able to see what is expected of him as well as be taught by me. Ive found it to be effective in the past. They always get plenty of individual time and im very aware of the size difference and puppies being annoying to adult dogs. Im pretty confident in that aspect. However i really do not want to cause my adult any undue stress, especially her last few years. So its something i need to seriously consider.


You may not like this, but I’d be happy with what you have.

Once nature takes its course with your existing dog - replace her with two, if you really wish to have multiples.

I’ve said it here before, German Shepherds are like Pringles to me; I can’t stop at one.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Understood and thats great for working dogs like the knpv dogs. They produce dogs perfect for whats asked of them. 
Im advocating for the akc to do those things. It may not be perfect but its a step foreward.

When i mentioned straight back i also mentioned i didnt know any better. My limited knowledge at the time was ofa hip cert and straight back was usually working lines and they were generally healthier.

King shepherds to me are a designer breed, and while beautiful im sure they have more health issues because they were bred for looks not health.

So the few resposible breeders will be enough to outweigh the bad ones and keep the breed healthy and balanced?


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Damicodric said:


> You may not like this, but I’d be happy with what you have.
> 
> Once nature takes its course with your existing dog - replace her with two, if you really wish to have multiples.
> 
> I’ve said it here before, German Shepherds are like Pringles to me; I can’t stop at one.


Im very happy with what i have. And basically live to make her happy. So i will definately not do anything to ruin that. But until the time comes ill keep doing my research so i make a more informed decision next time.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

I would advise NOT to crossbreed. There is too much of a chance of pups like our Jake who had some other dogs legs. (RIP) Wonderful dog otherwise, basically a floppy eared GS, a wonderful pet and best friend. BUT a short life with expensive health problems. I do not think there is that big a problem with the breed as it is. You pick the ones from the litter that exhibit the qualities and health you want and those are the ones you choose for breeding. Just as HD was 'bred in' it is now being bred out. It's simple - you don't want HD (or whatever) you don't breed dogs that have it. It is easy to find out the genetic problems with dna testing so there is really no reason to breed mutts. It is also inadvisable to inbreed animals. I often wonder if something like that is Elke's problem. Great little sweetie, has all those qualities you want in a GS but she's an emotional basket case that panics at anything that isn't the norm. Taking my screamer to to vet is traumatic. 
If you want another dog and feel you can handle it, get another dog. We usually have 2, a male and female, and we do not consider age a factor. Dogs don't know how old they are. As long as they get along (dogs are like people, they dont' automatically like every other dog) you'll have a happy home. 
And do consider the shelter. You find some great dogs there who know the value of a home. This is Duke - we had his DNA researched because we wanted to know if he was a wolf hybrid (he's not). Duke is 83% GS and he came from the local shelter.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> “Straight back” doesn’t mean anything. Anyone who uses that term doesn’t know much. There is quite a bit of genetic diversity in the breed. If you want to add diversity, you can outcross to different lines. The akc stance is that they are a registry. They only determine that the dog comes from purebred lines. There is no guarantee of quality. It’s up to the buyer to ultimately educate themselves and on breeders to produce quality dogs. I’m curious where you get this notion that all dogs produced in the US are crap. As for bringing in a puppy, remember the time, attention, and money you to give to that puppy, you can’t give to your other dog.


Sorry didnt mean to say all dogs in us are crap. I try not to generalize. I have an american byb bred dog now and shes healthy, balanced, and happy. Great dog, but i got lucky. Didnt do my research and things could have gone the other way.
What i am saying is there are a lot more bad breeders in america than elsewhere because of no standards. Dont get me wrong theres people in america that do it right as well but they are much harder to find amidst the sea of breeders who dont actually care about the breed.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Buckelke said:


> I would advise NOT to crossbreed. There is too much of a chance of pups like our Jake who had some other dogs legs. (RIP) Wonderful dog otherwise, basically a floppy eared GS, a wonderful pet and best friend. BUT a short life with expensive health problems. I do not think there is that big a problem with the breed as it is. You pick the ones from the litter that exhibit the qualities and health you want and those are the ones you choose for breeding. Just as HD was 'bred in' it is now being bred out. It's simple - you don't want HD (or whatever) you don't breed dogs that have it. It is easy to find out the genetic problems with dna testing so there is really no reason to breed mutts. It is also inadvisable to inbreed animals. I often wonder if something like that is Elke's problem. Great little sweetie, has all those qualities you want in a GS but she's an emotional basket case that panics at anything that isn't the norm. Taking my screamer to to vet is traumatic.
> If you want another dog and feel you can handle it, get another dog. We usually have 2, a male and female, and we do not consider age a factor. Dogs don't know how old they are. As long as they get along (dogs are like people, they dont' automatically like every other dog) you'll have a happy home.
> And do consider the shelter. You find some great dogs there who know the value of a home. This is Duke - we had his DNA researched because we wanted to know if he was a wolf hybrid (he's not). Duke is 83% GS and he came from the local shelter.


I thought in general mutts were healthier than purebreds? Anyway im def not doing any breeding, not qualified at all.

Ill accept that its not necessary, but just curious as to why its such a proposterous idea when selective crossbreeding and inbreeding were exactly how the breed was started. But theres no way for it to be helpful down the road to improve genetics?

Also as far as genetic testing i see theres a test for HD in labs available but not gsd? Is it just a matter of time for them to locate gene or is HD more complicated genetically in gsd?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Sorry didnt mean to say all dogs in us are crap. I try not to generalize. I have an american byb bred dog now and shes healthy, balanced, and happy. Great dog, but i got lucky. Didnt do my research and things could have gone the other way.
> What i am saying is there are a lot more bad breeders in america than elsewhere because of no standards. Dont get me wrong theres people in america that do it right as well but they are much harder to find amidst the sea of breeders who dont actually care about the breed.


There are bad breeders everywhere. The problem is if you don’t know what you’re looking for or looking at, you can easily end up with a dog that doesn’t meet your expectations. Cross breeding isn’t going to make a bad breeder produce good dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Yes. Our resident byb mutt producer is @berno. He just recently crossed an unproven puppy with no medical testing to an unknown breed female that bites stuff.
> 
> Science


Oh David! Is that jut a touch of sarcasm laced in there? Fed-up-ness? 

@Stxguy26 The issue I have with the concept of this lets make them better is twofold. First of all I quite like the breed and second what do you do with the pups that don't work out.
Personally, just looking at the daily posts on this board the breed is fine, and to my mind people half the people that are getting them shouldn't which would leave plenty of quality pups for the rest of us.
BYB/Mills are driven by a general public that will happily drop a hundred grand to drive a Hummer to their office downtown but balk at three grand for a loyal companion that will share their home for the next 12 years. There are plenty of good breeders in most areas, the bad ones are just better at marketing.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> There are bad breeders everywhere. The problem is if you don’t know what you’re looking for or looking at, you can easily end up with a dog that doesn’t meet your expectations. Cross breeding isn’t going to make a bad breeder produce good dogs.


Agreed 100% and what im looking for is a working line gsd with 4 generations of a1 or ofa excellent hips and elbows, dm, vwd. Health first, second super strong nerves with balanced drives and thresholds, third working capabity high level titles in pedigree, fourth looks. I want the versatile gsd. Not bred for one specific sport or job, a dog that can and will do it all. When properly trained and kept active can lay in the house with kids, cats, guests. Id prefer to get a dog from a repeat breeding so were even more sure of the outcome.

I wasnt suggesting bad breeders doing cross. The best in the world would have to do it and only when bad breeders have made it necessary.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Oh David! Is that jut a touch of sarcasm laced in there? Fed-up-ness?
> 
> @Stxguy26 The issue I have with the concept of this lets make them better is twofold. First of all I quite like the breed and second what do you do with the pups that don't work out.
> Personally, just looking at the daily posts on this board the breed is fine, and to my mind people half the people that are getting them shouldn't which would leave plenty of quality pups for the rest of us.
> BYB/Mills are driven by a general public that will happily drop a hundred grand to drive a Hummer to their office downtown but balk at three grand for a loyal companion that will share their home for the next 12 years. There are plenty of good breeders in most areas, the bad ones are just better at marketing.


Funny the unfit puppies has been weighing on me the whole time too. My best solution is to fix them and proactively figure out the best situation for them moving on.

Well anyway this was more a thought exercise and learning tool for me than an actual proposition. 

Lol at bad breeders have better marketing. Its so true


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Agreed 100% and what im looking for is a working line gsd with 4 generations of a1 or ofa excellent hips and elbows, dm, vwd. Health first, second super strong nerves with balanced drives and thresholds, third working capabity high level titles in pedigree, fourth looks. I want the versatile gsd. Not bred for one specific sport or job, a dog that can and will do it all. When properly trained and kept active can lay in the house with kids, cats, guests. Id prefer to get a dog from a repeat breeding so were even more sure of the outcome.
> 
> I wasnt suggesting bad breeders doing cross. The best in the world would have to do it and only when bad breeders have made it necessary.


How much research have you actually done? Do you know what percentage of dogs get ofa excellent? Do you understand the difference between an OFA rating and a stamps? An a1 rating doesn’t mean the same as OFA excellent? Do you realize a lot the great producing dogs are not the great scoring dogs? Do you know that repeat breedings don’t mean repeat results?


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> How much research have you actually done? Do you know what percentage of dogs get ofa excellent? Do you understand the difference between an OFA rating and a stamps? An a1 rating doesn’t mean the same as OFA excellent? Do you realize a lot the great producing dogs are not the great scoring dogs? Do you know that repeat breedings don’t mean repeat results?


Im in the process of doing my research thats why im asking questions. Dont know the percentage but some of the lines ive looked at recently was a pretty high percentage. From what i understood is ofa is one organization that rates hips/elbows and excellent is their best rating. Pennhip gives a score based on laxity (sp?) Little different but still related. A1 normal is the best rating by an organization in europe that rates hips/elbows.
I understand these ratings are somewhat subjective and arent the end all be all.
I understand great producing dogs dont always score the best.
I understand repeat breedings dont guarantee repeat results. 

But if youre looking for the best possible dog why not try to find all these things. They all potentially increase your chances of getting what you want out of a dog. And i have priorities. If i can get all the health and temperment stuff i can budge on working ability. If i get health and a more hard edged temperment than id at least like his working ability to higher so maybe hes less of a companion but we can bond through harder core training.

Aim small miss small

If thats unrealistic let me know to what extent and ill adjust my expectations. Im not new to gsd just to finding the best one out there (in my mind) for my next dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Im very happy with what i have. And basically live to make her happy. So i will definately not do anything to ruin that. But until the time comes ill keep doing my research so i make a more informed decision next time.


My 9 week old puppy was fantastic with my geriatric 15 year old who was blind, nearly deaf and had a weak back end. He used to play with the old man laying down. They really enjoyed each other.

I wouldn't hesitate to bring a pup into your situation. Defining what you actually want in a dog in terms that both the breeder and you can understand is going to be your first hurdle. If you haven't been around many dogs, particularly training in drive, then you don't really have the same perspective as the breeder with whom you are trying to describe your perfect dog.

There are plenty of well bred GSDs out there. The first step is experiencing some dogs and talking to their owners about those dogs in day to day life. Then you find a breeder that you believe produces the type of dog you are looking for and you have an honest conversation about your expectations and commitment to training and activity.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Oh David! Is that jut a touch of sarcasm laced in there? Fed-up-ness?
> 
> @Stxguy26 The issue I have with the concept of this lets make them better is twofold. First of all I quite like the breed and second what do you do with the pups that don't work out.
> Personally, just looking at the daily posts on this board the breed is fine, and to my mind people half the people that are getting them shouldn't which would leave plenty of quality pups for the rest of us.
> BYB/Mills are driven by a general public that will happily drop a hundred grand to drive a Hummer to their office downtown but balk at three grand for a loyal companion that will share their home for the next 12 years. There are plenty of good breeders in most areas, the bad ones are just better at marketing.


I don't think that anything I stated there is inaccurate, by his own words. His puppies are in the back yard. He calls them mutts. He has not trained Igor to any measurable level, nor has he performed genetic testing or hip/elbow screenings. He has also stated that the breed of the dam is unknown and he will perform DNA tests and pick the one he likes best.

Just stating the facts ma'am.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Also as far as genetic testing i see theres a test for HD in labs available but not gsd? Is it just a matter of time for them to locate gene or is HD more complicated genetically in gsd?





Stxguy26 said:


> From what i understood is ofa is one organization that rates hips/elbows and excellent is their best rating. Pennhip gives a score based on laxity (sp?) Little different but still related. A1 normal is the best rating by an organization in europe that rates hips/elbows.


That's a lot of research for 43 minutes.

I'm impressed.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

David Winners said:


> My 9 week old puppy was fantastic with my geriatric 15 year old who was blind, nearly deaf and had a weak back end. He used to play with the old man laying down. They really enjoyed each other.
> 
> I wouldn't hesitate to bring a pup into your situation. Defining what you actually want in a dog in terms that both the breeder and you can understand is going to be your first hurdle. If you haven't been around many dogs, particularly training in drive, then you don't really have the same perspective as the breeder with whom you are trying to describe your perfect dog.
> 
> There are plenty of well bred GSDs out there. The first step is experiencing some dogs and talking to their owners about those dogs in day to day life. Then you find a breeder that you believe produces the type of dog you are looking for and you have an honest conversation about your expectations and commitment to training and activity.


I have friends with gsd, mals, dutchies all doing schutzhund and agilty work. Seen them in their different drives and their offswitches. Not a big fan of the mals ive met but impressive dogs nonetheless. I love dutchies, would be my second choice but i think a little over my head right now. My current shepherd is pretty high drive and high energy. But she doesnt quite have the level of intensity id like for my next dog. And from my experience a good gsd is a more rounded dog and has a better off switch.

Haha didnt do all that in 43 mins. Over the years ive learned what mistakes ive made with my current dog and made note of how id do it differently next time. Now next time is coming up so i figured join this forum to ask my silly questions and start really narrowing down what i really want in this next dog.

So far the best ive found in usa is allyk9
Von eisch or something like that. They have dogs from kennels in europe recommended to me and seem very honest in their assessment of their breeders and what kind of home they need to go to.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I’m not an expert by any means, but I believe a reputable breeder might say breeding only OFA excellent would limit the pool and the breed would lose many good traits. Much like the theory that a breeder might still breed DM carriers. Eliminating those genetics from the pool would have a higher negative cost to the breed than having carriers remain in the pool.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> I’m not an expert by any means, but I believe a reputable breeder might say breeding only OFA excellent would limit the pool and the breed would lose many good traits. Much like the theory that a breeder might still breed DM carriers. Eliminating those genetics from the pool would have a higher negative cost to the breed than having carriers remain in the pool.


Hmm interesting. Limiting the gene pool definately makes sense. And that was a topic earlier. Are these good traits dwfinitively locked in with hd and dm? What good traits are we talking about?

As a whole for the breed maybe its better to have some lower ratings in the gene pool. I suppose you sacrifice the health of a percentage of future offspring to further the breed as a whole.

On a less macro level though, whose willing to take that risk while buying puppies in the meantime that have i higher chance of a debilitating disease in their beloved dog. I dont go through dogs like some people i expect a 10-15 year healthy dog.

Wonder if there are bloodlines that have seperated those good traits from the bad or its breed wide?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CeraDean said:


> I’m not an expert by any means, but I believe a reputable breeder might say breeding only OFA excellent would limit the pool and the breed would lose many good traits. Much like the theory that a breeder might still breed DM carriers. Eliminating those genetics from the pool would have a higher negative cost to the breed than having carriers remain in the pool.


It would. My male's dam is OFA fair. She produced only Good and Excellent. As far as DM, carrier to clear will eventually eliminate the carriers without throwing out the gene pool. and when you completely eliminate lines of dogs because of one thing instead of breeding intelligently you do not know what else you are throwing out. IT's a balance game.


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## Lukas77 (May 2, 2020)

Seen a couple of GSD breedings recently who have malinois/knpv-dogs in various degree behind them, unregistred dogs who have been given FCI-pedigrees and hence OK to breed in GSDs breedings and get registred. Personally I don´t think is wrong if done with a serious goal, can´t be wrong to increase the genepool, afterall these breeds are pretty similar and in older times very close it seems. If it´s needed in the GSD is another question, I don´t know, some breeders seems concerned over the genetic diversity in the breed and this needs to be taken seriously.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> It would. My male's dam is OFA fair. She produced only Good and Excellent. As far as DM, carrier to clear will eventually eliminate the carriers without throwing out the gene pool. and when you completely eliminate lines of dogs because of one thing instead of breeding intelligently you do not know what else you are throwing out. IT's a balance game.


Makes sense. But do those good an excellent dogs have a higher chance of throwing hd if they breed? Like you said seems like a balancing game.

I know you never know whats going to happen especially if getting a puppy, im not opposed to a young adult dog to further increase odds of getting what im looking for.

Ill shoot for perfection and throttle back expectations as whats realistically available becomes more clear. Really a healthy happy dog is most important.

Also i know ofa makes mistakes too. Giving two different scores to the same xrays. Theyre all just imperfect tools to help us make better choices.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

One thing you could consider is looking at breeders that have hip ratings of what they have produced and not just the ratings of the breeding pair.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Lukas77 said:


> Seen a couple of GSD breedings recently who have malinois/knpv-dogs in various degree behind them, unregistred dogs who have been given FCI-pedigrees and hence OK to breed in GSDs breedings and get registred. Personally I don´t think is wrong if done with a serious goal, can´t be wrong to increase the genepool, afterall these breeds are pretty similar and in older times very close it seems. If it´s needed in the GSD is another question, I don´t know, some breeders seems concerned over the genetic diversity in the breed and this needs to be taken seriously.


Pretty much my thoughts. I know there have been times in order to save the dutch shepherd breed they mixed with mals and gsd. Still a genetically different breed but look how much longer dutchies live than gsd. 

Kind of interesting they found a gene that makes mals more neurotic and potentially aggressive than other breeds. Not sure if theyll breed out though as ive heard when focused properly that neurosis makes them a better working dog.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> One thing you could consider is looking at breeders that have hip ratings of what they have produced and not just the ratings of the breeding pair.


Of course, i plan on researching litter mates of ancestors as well to give a better idea of the percentage of excellents hips family wide. Another reason i prrfer euro dogs many more of them get titled and xrayed and are easier to actually track instances of health problems.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Sorry didnt mean to say all dogs in us are crap. I try not to generalize. I have an american byb bred dog now and shes healthy, balanced, and happy. Great dog, but i got lucky. Didnt do my research and things could have gone the other way.
> What i am saying is there are a lot more bad breeders in america than elsewhere because of no standards. Dont get me wrong theres people in america that do it right as well but they are much harder to find amidst the sea of breeders who dont actually care about the breed.


Based on what research?


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

I guess in the not too distant future none of this will really matter. With gene modding advances, well just go to the build a dog and tell the store clerk what breed, what size, what color, health, temperment etc. Theyll type it in and tell you to come back in an hour, while their 3d printer loaded with dog dna and stem cells builds your dog.

Breeders start looking for a new hobby now.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> I guess in the not too distant future none of this will really matter. With gene modding advances, well just go to the build a dog and tell the store clerk what breed, what size, what color, health, temperment etc. Theyll type it in and tell you to come back in an hour, while their 3d printer loaded with dog dna and stem cells builds your dog.
> 
> Breeders start looking for a new hobby now.


Serious breeding is rarely a hobby. It’s a lifestyle and a commitment to excellence.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> Based on what research?


Honestly no research. Anecdotal. What i have personally found in my search for my perfect dog. And the fact that there are standards that have to be met in germany and none in us. No oversight at all as opposed to at least some.

It seems ive struck a nerve, again i didnt mean to generalize and i tried to clarify what i meant. Id rather not argue, if you have some us based breeders that are producing quality dogs from quality bloodlines please let me know, i would be greatful, honestly. As was sad earlier the bad breeders have much better marketing and drown out the good ones in my searching.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The good breeders are found and don't need to market their dogs. That's how I found mine.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

4% of german shepherds OFA excellent. Its 7.4% born after 2017. I have never seen, and doubt you'll find any german shepherd with all OFA excellent hip ratings in a 4 gen pedigree. A1 in the german system means normal hips. Its not the same as an OFA excellent. An a1 in Germany could be from fair to excellent. When you look at hip ratings, you need to look vetically and horizontal in a pedigree. Sire hip ratings, Sire sibling hip ratings, ect. Elbows get rated as normal or dysplastic. Statistically, two dogs with excellent hips are more likely to produce better hips. There is more to it than that though. As for titles, you can search for the mountain of opinions there. I will say that a pedigree filled with high level titles to me(WUSV, FCI, nationals) runs the risk of being filled with popular studs without a lot of attention to what is being produced. A high scoring dog doesn't guarantee anything in progeny. A repeat breeding can turn out very differently. The problem is you are limiting your list to something that is incredibly unrealistic.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> The good breeders are found and don't need to market their dogs. That's how I found mine.


Wow thanks for the help. Good breeders dont need to be secretive as long as theyre selective. 

Where i live i dont have access to tons of clubs or working dog owners/groups to miraculously find the perfect dog breeder for me. 

My best resource is the internet right now and i thought here on this forum. I read a bunch on a working dog forum but it wasnt as active and was pretty hostile. This forum seemed more friendly and helpful. But maybe its not the place for me.

I apologize to anyone i may have offended, it was not my intention.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> stating the facts ma'am.


Ouch! Now I feel old!

I'm just poking at you. You seemed too passive. Lol.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

How about this? What do you think of these two pedigrees?





Nike Von Mater Salvatoris


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Nike Von Mater Salvatoris




www.pedigreedatabase.com









Lexus Vamoz Bohemia


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Lexus Vamoz Bohemia




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Wow thanks for the help. Good breeders dont need to be secretive as long as theyre selective.
> 
> Where i live i dont have access to tons of clubs or working dog owners/groups to miraculously find the perfect dog breeder for me.
> 
> ...


We are helpful and friendly. The advice you are given is not a criticism, it’s intended to help you learn as much as you can about finding the dog you want. You have some preconceived bias and we are showing you a different way to look at it. I presume you are going to ship the dog to your location?


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> 4% of german shepherds OFA excellent. Its 7.4% born after 2017. I have never seen, and doubt you'll find any german shepherd with all OFA excellent hip ratings in a 4 gen pedigree. A1 in the german system means normal hips. Its not the same as an OFA excellent. An a1 in Germany could be from fair to excellent. When you look at hip ratings, you need to look vetically and horizontal in a pedigree. Sire hip ratings, Sire sibling hip ratings, ect. Elbows get rated as normal or dysplastic. Statistically, two dogs with excellent hips are more likely to produce better hips. There is more to it than that though. As for titles, you can search for the mountain of opinions there. I will say that a pedigree filled with high level titles to me(WUSV, FCI, nationals) runs the risk of being filled with popular studs without a lot of attention to what is being produced. A high scoring dog doesn't guarantee anything in progeny. A repeat breeding can turn out very differently. The problem is you are limiting your list to something that is incredibly unrealistic.


Fair enough. My thinking was if high titling dogs continue to make high titling dogs and have a good temperment on top of that they were at least producing good dogs whether that was where their attention was at or not.

I def plan to check as many siblings of the diff generations as possible. And ill just pick the best pedigree that fits my other criteria, even if its not perfect. Doesnt mean i dont want as perfect as possible though. I dont mean to bash any breeders or anything i just want the healthiest possible dog i can get.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> How about this? What do you think of these two pedigrees?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you i appreciate the help. I will thoroughly look into them. Sorry if i got defensive i just dont know why you didnt do that in the first place. If im not serious or competant the breeder should be able to weed me out.

I was planning to travel to pick up the dog make a vacation out of it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Fair enough. My thinking was if high titling dogs continue to make high titling dogs and have a good temperment on top of that they were at least producing good dogs whether that was where their attention was at or not.


The point I'm trying to make to you is that high scoring dogs don't always make high scoring dogs. A good temperament


Stxguy26 said:


> Thank you i appreciate the help. I will thoroughly look into them. Sorry if i got defensive i just dont know why you didnt do that in the first place. If im not serious or competant the breeder should be able to weed me out.
> 
> I was planning to travel to pick up the dog make a vacation out of it.


The point of that was to show you two random pedigrees of very different dogs. If you want breeder suggestions, give your experience, what you like in a dog, your living setup and what you want to do with a dog. You can also ask what the people here look for when they are looking for dogs. You can also ask what dogs people here have, where they came from, what the pedigrees look like, why they chose them and what they do with them. Those methods will probably yield better results if you want different breeders.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> How about this? What do you think of these two pedigrees?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha ok youre going to hate me but both of their hd history worries me. And i fully admit it might not be justified. Ill need to do some more research.

Do you know any statistics of what rating level the probability of debilitating damage really shows up?

How many dogs with fast normal or ofa good hips end up crippled in their old age?

I really like lexus, predominantly the variety of titles they all got, i like versatility. But his grandmother with mild hd scares the crap out of me.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Haha ok youre going to hate me but both of their hd history worries me. And i fully admit it might not be justified. Ill need to do some more research.
> 
> Do you know any statistics of what rating level the probability of debilitating damage really shows up?
> 
> ...


I don't really care about either of those dogs. They were just random pedigrees I pulled up. There is an OFA chart that shows the probabilities of different ratings based on the parents. As for how dogs handle it, that depends on the dogs.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I don't really care about either of those dogs. They were just random pedigrees I pulled up. There is an OFA chart that shows the probabilities of different ratings based on the parents. As for how dogs handle it, that depends on the dogs.


Ok so if titles in the pedigree dont matter and hd history in the pedigree doesnt matter what should i be looking for in the pedigree?
What would be your lowest threshold for hd ratings in your dog and be comfortable **** be able to walk in his old age?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> Personally, just looking at the daily posts on this board the breed is fine, and to my mind people* half the people that are getting them shouldn't *which would leave plenty of quality pups for the rest of us.
> BYB/Mills are driven by a general public that will happily drop a hundred grand to drive a Hummer to their office downtown but balk at three grand for a loyal companion that will share their home for the next 12 years. There are plenty of good breeders in most areas, the bad ones are just better at marketing.


Unpopular line of reasoning that is entirely true....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stxguy26 said:


> Ok so if titles in the pedigree dont matter and hd history in the pedigree doesnt matter what should i be looking for in the pedigree?
> What would be your lowest threshold for hd ratings in your dog and be comfortable **** be able to walk in his old age?


Simple.. you look for balance...always balance..


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Simple.. you look for balance...always balance..


In what sense? Sorry i really am trying to learn. What does balance look like in a pedigree?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Ok so if titles in the pedigree dont matter and hd history in the pedigree doesnt matter what should i be looking for in the pedigree?
> What would be your lowest threshold for hd ratings in your dog and be comfortable **** be able to walk in his old age?


How about this pedigree?





Cion Aus dem Tal


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Cion Aus dem Tal




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> How about this pedigree?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


crap. you should just rehome him to PA. I bet he would like snow


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Learn about the dogs in the pedigree.. not just titles and health tests... see what they are producing... are pairings chosen on strengths and weaknesses? Are questionable hips being bred to hip improvers? Is active aggression being brought to overly social lines? Are too social of dogs being bred to dogs that are too social creating imbalance? There is far more to breeding than breeding dogs with good hips to dogs with good hips especially if both dogs produce dogs with bad hips. Don't worry about "straight backs" and other voodoo marketing ploys. Look at the total package.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> crap. you should just rehome him to PA. I bet he would like snow


I don't think he can handle cold. He's barely seen rain.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> How about this pedigree?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From what i know, which may be wrong. Looks very promising, next id find siblings and check them out if all is good, lets talk temperment. Has anyone met these dogs in person are there videos of them, whose breeding how do i get more information from them.

Now does it mean every puppy he has will be perfect? No but the probability is higher isnt it?


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Learn about the dogs in the pedigree.. not just titles and health tests... see what they are producing... are pairings chosen on strengths and weaknesses? Are questionable hips being bred to hip improvers? Is active aggression being brought to overly social lines? Are too social of dogs being bred to dogs that are too social creating imbalance? There is far more to breeding than breeding dogs with good hips to dogs with good hips especially if both dogs produce dogs with bad hips. Don't worry about "straight backs" and other voodoo marketing ploys. Look at the total package.


My process was find the healthiest lines and then search among them for the right temperment for me. I suppose i could research breeders with the temperment i want and then weed out the lines that dont have the health.

But my number one priority is health. All dogs are different i can adjust to energy and drive differences as long as hes confident and stable.

Maybe im doing it backwards?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stxguy26 said:


> My process was find the healthiest lines and then search among them for the right temperment for me. I suppose i could research breeders with the temperment i want and then weed out the lines that dont have the health.
> 
> But my number one priority is health. All dogs are different i can adjust to energy and drive differences as long as hes confident and stable.
> 
> Maybe im doing it backwards?


To each his own but I never got rid of a good dog with poor health but I have gotten rid of dogs with poor temperaments and excellent health. The key is balance. Breeders emphasizing health and breeders emphasizing temperament both send me packing.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> From what i know, which may be wrong. Looks very promising, next id find siblings and check them out if all is good, lets talk temperment. Has anyone met these dogs in person are there videos of them, whose breeding how do i get more information from them.
> 
> Now does it mean every puppy he has will be perfect? No but the probability is higher isnt it?


A dog's official name is usually 2 parts. One is the dog's name, the other is the kennel name. In this case, the dog is cion and the kennel is aus dem tal. This is my dog, so I could tell you all about him. While you may like a dog like him, they definitely aren't for everyone. What I would recommend is to find dogs you like or breeders producing dogs you like and go from there. Pedigrees can deceive you. You have to dig deeper. You can start where you want. The easiest way is to go out and meet dogs and talk to people. Once you find what you like you can talk to experts on what to expect.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> To each his own but I never got rid of a good dog with poor health but I have gotten rid of dogs with poor temperaments and excellent health. The key is balance. Breeders emphasizing health and breeders emphasizing temperament both send me packing.


Arent breeders breeding for temperment breeding for health at the same time? Shouldnt health be a major consideration in every breeding? Im not looking for breeders breeding purely for health. Just looking for the healthiest lines to then narrow down my search further by temperment. 

Not looking for the healthiest ahole dog in the world. If i couldnt find the right temperment in those lines id expand my search.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Arent breeders breeding for temperment breeding for health at the same time? Shouldnt health be a major consideration in every breeding? Im not looking for breeders breeding purely for health. Just looking for the healthiest lines to then narrow down my search further by temperment.
> 
> Not looking for the healthiest ahole dog in the world. If i couldnt find the right temperment in those lines id expand my search.


Breeders should be breeding for everything.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> A dog's official name is usually 2 parts. One is the dog's name, the other is the kennel name. In this case, the dog is cion and the kennel is aus dem tal. This is my dog, so I could tell you all about him. While you may like a dog like him, they definitely aren't for everyone. What I would recommend is to find dogs you like or breeders producing dogs you like and go from there. Pedigrees can deceive you. You have to dig deeper. You can start where you want. The easiest way is to go out and meet dogs and talk to people. Once you find what you like you can talk to experts on what to expect.


Id love to have access to these breeders and ppl but i dont. Thats why im here bothering you guys. My best option is talking to ppl like you who have these dogs. And while your dog may not be right by me. One of his family may have bed bred to another healthy line and produced a dog that is right for me. Its a place for me to start. Otherwise im just taking little bits from here and there and not really getting anywhere.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Breeders should be breeding for everything.


So why cant i ask for everything? Lol


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stxguy26 said:


> Arent breeders breeding for temperment breeding for health at the same time? Shouldnt health be a major consideration in every breeding? Im not looking for breeders breeding purely for health. Just looking for the healthiest lines to then narrow down my search further by temperment.
> 
> Not looking for the healthiest ahole dog in the world. If i couldnt find the right temperment in those lines id expand my search.


Some people, aka buyers, are hooked on health creating a supply of dogs bred for health with little regard to temperament. Most breeders breeding for temperament and workability need to keep an eye on working conformation which in and of its self tends towards good health. Not always, but a guideline.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> crap. you should just rehome him to PA. I bet he would like snow


Are you offering?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Are you offering?


Nahhh...northeast dogs need to be of tougher stuff. lol But I was dying last night when Seger's breeder sent me some pictures and videos of the dogs she's holding back. Me Me Me!!! Pick ME!!!


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Some people, aka buyers, are hooked on health creating a supply of dogs bred for health with little regard to temperament. Most breeders breeding for temperament and workability need to keep an eye on working conformation which in and of its self tends towards good health. Not always, but a guideline.


Hmm ok makes sense. Kind of crazy breed a dog to live a long life but pass on an aggressive or fearful nature that gets them put down well before their time. Definately not what i am looking for.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Nahhh...northeast dogs need to be of tougher stuff. lol But I was dying last night when Seger's breeder sent me some pictures and videos of the dogs she's holding back. Me Me Me!!! Pick ME!!!


Because you need another dog right now.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stxguy26 said:


> Hmm ok makes sense. Kind of crazy breed a dog to live a long life but pass on an aggressive or fearful nature that gets them put down well before their time. Definately not what i am looking for.


Now you're gettin' it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Because you need another dog right now.


🤣 Exactly. Exactly that. But if my girl was titled and two years older....I would definitely be in line for the one she decides to not keep. I want to get Seger titled in PSA too before fully retiring him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> 🤣 Exactly. Exactly that. But if my girl was titled and two years older....I would definitely be in line for the one she decides to not keep. I want to get Seger titled in PSA too before fully retiring him.


You have enough to do now. Wait. She will have more litters. Then you will want one of those.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> So why cant i ask for everything? Lol


You can. I told you a better way to ask already.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Nahhh...northeast dogs need to be of tougher stuff. lol But I was dying last night when Seger's breeder sent me some pictures and videos of the dogs she's holding back. Me Me Me!!! Pick ME!!!


Don't make it a challenge. He gets angry about those.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> You have enough to do now. Wait. She will have more litters. Then you will want one of those.


What's one more?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> You have enough to do now. Wait. She will have more litters. Then you will want one of those.


yeaha..thanks for the input. I really don't want another dog right now.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Stxguy26 said:


> Id love to have access to these breeders and ppl but i dont. Thats why im here bothering you guys. My best option is talking to ppl like you who have these dogs. And while your dog may not be right by me. One of his family may have bed bred to another healthy line and produced a dog that is right for me. Its a place for me to start. Otherwise im just taking little bits from here and there and not really getting anywhere.


Where are you located? People can recommend clubs and places to go see dogs nearby. You can google the kennel name and find that breeders number. Be sure you know what your getting into if you go asking for a Cerberus puppy.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> You can. I told you a better way to ask already.


I gotcha just making a little joke. I appreciate your time and help.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Where are you located? People can recommend clubs and places to go see dogs nearby. You can google the kennel name and find that breeders number. Be sure you know what your getting into if you go asking for a Cerberus puppy.


I live in the virgin islands. Closest i might have luck is flying to puerto rico. But then theres a language barrier, so that takes me 3hrs to miami.

When im ready ill start a new thread detailing my situation and what im looking for exactly. Until then ill keep learning.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Dire is an odd, excessively presumptive word to use.




























Nothing dire in my world, but I have little interest in splitting the balls on a moth.

I know a good dog. I know a good breeder. I know a good program.

I buy the dog.

Been pretty good at it for 25 years.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Damicodric said:


> Dire is an odd, excessively presumptive word to use.
> 
> View attachment 567438
> 
> ...


Its all in the headline my friend. Beautiful dogs. all black shepherds always looked so noble to me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> What's one more?


Time. She has big plans for her dogs, all of which take time. A puppy will take away from her time.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Time. She has big plans for her dogs, all of which take time. A puppy will take away from her time.


I joke.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Stxguy26 said:


> Its all in the headline my friend. Beautiful dogs. all black shepherds always looked so noble to me.


When you narrow things down, give a few extra minutes to knowing / greeting the blacks.

They’re something about them....

Best in your search.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Its all in the headline my friend. Beautiful dogs. all black shepherds always looked so noble to me.


If you want to do research from afar, why not read through threads on this forum and ask questions of members about their dogs and experiences?

Here is a subforum all about braggs. Good place to start. Then you can look at the sport and general forums as well.









Braggs!!!


Share special accomplishments, events, traits and characteristics here.




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

Damicodric said:


> When you narrow things down, give a few extra minutes to knowing / greeting the blacks.
> 
> They’re something about them....
> 
> Best in your search.


Ive actually never met a black shepherd oddly enough. If i can be satisfied with everything else and have the choice of color, black is at the top of my list. 

I met a liver coated gsd a while back i fell in love with but already had my shepherd my exes shihtzu a cat and a bird, so i couldnt.


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## Stxguy26 (Dec 20, 2020)

David Winners said:


> If you want to do research from afar, why not read through threads on this forum and ask questions of members about their dogs and experiences?
> 
> Here is a subforum all about braggs. Good place to start. Then you can look at the sport and general forums as well.
> 
> ...


Thats my current plan cyberstalk all of your dogs and go from there lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Stxguy26 said:


> Thats my current plan cyberstalk all of your dogs and go from there lol


Here is my puppy thread. There are many more as well.









Carmspack puppy inbound!!!


Tentative name is Valor




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There is zero heritability related to sport scores.


----------



## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Lukas77 said:


> Seen a couple of GSD breedings recently who have malinois/knpv-dogs in various degree behind them, unregistred dogs who have been given FCI-pedigrees and hence OK to breed in GSDs breedings and get registred. Personally I don´t think is wrong if done with a serious goal, can´t be wrong to increase the genepool, afterall these breeds are pretty similar and in older times very close it seems. If it´s needed in the GSD is another question, I don´t know, some breeders seems concerned over the genetic diversity in the breed and this needs to be taken seriously.


There is only one org tomy knowledge that has been doing it and that is the RSV2000. They got into hot water over it and almost lost VDH recognition.
Currently I know of a single breeder that is very obviously using a Mal or Mal X and thats “del Camino Duro”. The dog Junker is obviously not a purebred Shepherd but was registered as such because he “looks” and “possesses” all the qualities of one.

That is the only one I know off.


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## Lukas77 (May 2, 2020)

Yes, junker is one of these dogs but I also seen this dog that have been used or are planned to be used by a couple of other breeders, on the fathers side he is not "pure" GSD if I´m not totally mistaken,








Hot del Camino Duro | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Hot del Camino Duro at working-dog.



en.working-dog.com


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Some of the best working dogs are not purebred and don't have a registry or papers.


Hence "Chips" from WWII.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I will be in the minority here most likely, but if you really feel the need for a cross, I would suggest looking at an established cross. I'm not affiliated with this guy, but he is apparently in law enforcement and has produced reliably good dogs (GSD/MAL X) called Western Shepherds. Western Shepherds for Family Protection | Cappel Canine

If anyone here knows if these are actually not good dogs please speak up. But, in the grand scheme of things, an early breed crossing might yield a few decent dogs, but on the whole they take a larger brood stock, bred in parrallel and then bred back in order to tighten up the desirable traits and conformation. My advice would be to look until you find a solid GSD breeder, or maybe look into an established cross breeder with generations to back up their claims.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Lukas77 said:


> Yes, junker is one of these dogs but I also seen this dog that have been used or are planned to be used by a couple of other breeders, on the fathers side he is not "pure" GSD if I´m not totally mistaken,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, and that is within the RSV but not within the SV.
The whole reason there is this war going on between SV - VDH - FCI is because of the RSV.

The irony is, there is more than enough genetic diversity within the breed. The diversity is actually there, we just have to use it. In this time and age we have tools to work with that can give us the true genetic COI and more information than we ever had before. But we have to start using these tools and stop chasing after the next world champion.


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## Lukas77 (May 2, 2020)

The breedings from junker and the other dogs I was thinking about is done within the swedish kennel club (SKK), not SV or RSV. I guess this is allowed because they have a FCI-pedigree? Also think there are quite many dogs used in breedings who are not world champions but due to former breeding practice some dogs seems very common, like fero for example.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Yes, its because they have FCI pedigrees. It blew up a few years ago because of questionable practices and they almost lost VDH accreditation due to it. It was a close call.
Again, I dont think its necessary because the diversity is still there. The issue is that people dont use it. Or maybe dont know how to use it.
Distance and gateguarding knowledge can make it hard for people to breed too.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I see Cappel as a hack. He mentioned von Stephanitz “created” von Horwath to be a square dog when he actually bought the dog. Never been impressed by his training videos or APPDA.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I see Cappel is a hack. He mentioned von Stephanitz “created” von Horwath to be a square dog when he actually bought the dog. Never been impressed by his training videos or APPDA.


One of my friends mentioned APPDA. He couldn’t get the acronym right so I could never figure out what he was referring to. I’m surprised you don’t like it, seems right up your alley.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Why do you say that. Every video I have seen on APPDA looks like amateur hour to the point of looking embarrassing.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Why do you say that. Every video I have seen on APPDA looks like amateur hour to the point of looking embarrassing.


I don't see a lot of difference from psa.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Then you either not very discriminative or unfamiliar but both venues. Look up some APPDA vids and compare them to some recent PSA vids.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Then you either not very discriminative or unfamiliar but both venues. Look up some APPDA vids and compare them to some recent PSA vids.


There clubs I know of that train both of the sports. Some of those people involved have titled multiple psa dogs as well.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What is your point? APPDA does not require the caliber of dog or handler and training as PSA. I have seen videos of APPDA dogs that are pitiful. Same for the decoys.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is nothing wrong with putting in a second dog, while you still have an older dog to "show her/him the ropes." And yes, sometimes a new pup will add some apparent _life_ into an older dog. If you add a pup now, when your dog is 11, that dog is 2-3 and they will long have worked out how to manage as the older dog slows down. You do not want to put in a puppy _for_ the other dog. You want to put in a puppy for yourself, because you want to have a youngster to work with and play with. Nothing wrong with that. Plenty wrong with getting a youngster _for_ your dog. 

An "outcross" is when you breed a dog with no common ancestors within 5 or 7 generations (I think its is 5). These would ALL be registered GSDs, not mutts, and not other breeds. They had a single trait in Dalmations that they wanted to eliminate, and bred another breed in to remove that single trait. I think with some success. I don't think that is what you are trying to accomplish here. I think that maybe you bought into the PETA/AR/HSUS theme that mongrels are more robust than purebreds. This is a flat out lie. I think they had a large pack of beagles that they were trying to improve upon by allowing natural selection within this pack, with the idea maybe of survival of the fittest and that maybe the animals will choose on their own who would be the best at picking breeding partners. Someone can let me know how that played out. 

Yes, an outcross for health, whether purebred or by adding in another breed that doesn't seem plagued with problems, would mean knowing all the dog in the previous 5-7 generations, and picking the best picks out of the litters, to breed back into the excellent line of GSDs that you chose for this purpose. Then you would have to pick the best of those pups to go forward with. And again. You would still have to find other excellent GSD lines to work with. In any outcross, you will bring up bad and good traits. At the end of the day, maybe you succeed in reducing the incident of, say Mega E or EPI in your lines, but you increase the incident of eye or heart conditions. Maybe you decrease hip dysplasia (how would you even know without several generations being born and all checked and of course you used dogs with 5 generations of good hips in the first place), but add the problem of can't think of the word they use, but shoulder issue that the GSD is really not known for. 

And, you've taken an excellent line of GSDs and created mutts (if you outcrossed to another breed). All of them. And all of them will need homes. Unless you are going to kill the ones you do not intend to use. Which would make you a monster. Every shepherd cross out there has or has the potential to produce the problems that GSDs are prone to. If you have crossed in another line of GSDs (in the US, there are three common lines: the Working lines, the American Show Line and the West German Show Line). At least all the dogs would be purebred and able to be registered which does give them a better chance at being placed in a good home. But you are likely to get the opposite of uniform litters, that means you would have to have a good eye in determining what these dogs are going to be like at maturity, and a good ear at what prospective homes are looking for. Breeders have done this and are doing this all over. Putting a WGSL dog into an American Show Line to improve whatever. The results are generally not what either line's enthusiast would want. And only a dedicated breeder who can be happy with dogs that do not win for them, for several generations, can maybe do what they were intending to do. Most of the folks who do this, do it for convenience or because their male knocked up their female, and now they want to figure something out to tell prospective buyers, some _reason_ for breeding that dog to that bitch.

Instead of looking for folks that are trying to _improve _the breed by coloring outside of the lines, why not look for breeders who have ancient dogs, dogs that make it to 13 and 14 years or older, and buy a dog from those lines. There are no guarantees because longevity is not all breeding and even if it is, there are no lines that have no incidents of anything that dogs generally die eventually of. We live in a fallen world where death is part of the life cycle. Our dogs are all going to fall ill and die at some point if they do not die in some form of accident. Good breeders want to make them healthiest for the longest time. Choosing a pup from breeders who hang onto their dogs and can tell you at what age they died. 

For instance, Jenna was almost 13, Babs, almost 14, and Odessa is out there over 13. Heidi was over 13. Babs had a couple of litters, but she was not bred much nor am I continuing her line because she added in too much softness (temperament). Jenna was my biggest producer. Odessa only had a few litters for me, and those were mostly sold. The female I kept did not reproduce and was rehomed at six years. The male I kept did produce four litters, but died very young from bloat. Out of him, I have one bitch who will be five in March, and I am desperately hoping to get something out of her. And I have a pup out of bitch out of him that was sold, bred to Kojak (my current stud dog), who is two and who I have high hopes for. Heidi never produced. She had an issue with her parts, something was turned, so that she would require AI. I tried that once or twice and then thought that the likelihood of whelping complications was too great and chose to not use her for breeding. Great bitch. Finally retired her from Rally before I got her RE, because I let her jump out of condition and she hurt a tendon. That healed with time. Jenna and Babs would have been 15 last August. Some of the pups out of them have passed, I put Joy (Jenna) down at 11. Woden and Matilda died earlier, the litter had 10 in it, and I am not in touch with all of them, but I think Rosie passed recently. Her second litter was 8 months later, they will be 11 in March. Bear and Lola and Dolly are all doing well. The pups I kept and never bred out of Babs I lost within days of each other, at 10 years -- they were out of an outcross male who was 1/2 WGSL and 1/2 working line. I did not use the stud again because it did not produce what I was looking for, and did not breed the bitches I did keep. Jenna was bred to WGSL imports. The bitches I kept out of Babs, they have a litter-sister that is still going, and she would be 12 at this point. Some of the pups out of Jenna's first litter are still going, and will be 12 this year. 

The point of that is that until the pups of the dogs you are breeding pass away, you really don't know if you are passing on longevity or not. And by then, you have already made all the breeding decisions. If you have serious health concerns with the puppies you can stop breeding a bitch or even a line. But breeding for longevity takes longevity in the breeder. My mentor was breeding for 50+ years. She said to me, "You don't have the time to make all the mistakes yourself, so learn from mine." She was so right. My first litter was 15 years ago. I am only trying to create healthy, long-lived pups. Jenna and Odie both had good longevity, but the pup out of Bear(Jenna/Gispo) and Mufasa (Odessa/Herko) died at 3.5 years from oral cancer. 

What you are looking for is a breeder who has been doing this for 30+ years who can tell you the longevity of 5 or 6 generations. Don't expect every pup to live to 13 -- they'd be lying. What you would want to see is that a lot of their progeny have gotten up there. You want to see repeat customers who were happy with the dogs they got from her. You're talking about dealing with old people. And old people love to talk about their dogs, most of them. But they may not be as tolerant of people who think they know everything because they have been schooled by internet sites. Maybe they will like that you "did your research." And maybe they will see you as being a perpetual thorn in their side. Hard to say. But there are no shortcuts. To breed for longevity, you have to have been breeding for a lot of years. And there are no guarantees. You can get a dog from someone who has done all the work and have the dogs to prove that they are producing long-lived, healthy, well-tempered dogs, only to get a pup that dies from something, anything, young. These aren't BMWs. They are living creatures who are affected by their genetics and their environment. Always having had dogs that lived to 14 doesn't mean this one will. There are changes to dog foods, preventative veterinary care, and so much more that may play into the environmental portion.


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