# Is this pup considered Sable?



## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

Hello, can someone please tell me if this pup is considered Sable or Black and Tan?thank you so much!
View attachment 372186


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Hmm, a few more pictures would be nice but he might be a mix of a black and tan and a sable. He looks like a sable though from that picture. The paws are kind of throwing me off.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Julian G said:


> Hmm, a few more pictures would be nice but he might be a mix of a black and tan and a sable. He looks like a sable though from that picture. The paws are kind of throwing me off.



a dog is either sable or not. 

looks to be a sable pup. pencilling on the toes is a usually sign.
it's hard to tell since you can't actually see much of the pup


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yes he is .
SABLE. Nice !


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

I am thinking Sable, very good looking pup!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Sable


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

Yes, sable.


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

Thanks for all the inputs. I will snap more pictures when I bring her home! Is she considered Dark Sable?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it's too early to tell from those pictures. If you have a photo when she is a few days old, that will give you the best idea. Singe went completely blonde before he go his adult coat in lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

post the pedigree of this good looking pup and we'll find a relative that he looks most like .


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

i would definitely say sable


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Yes, sable.


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

carmspack said:


> post the pedigree of this good looking pup and we'll find a relative that he looks most like .


I will post it once I get them AKC registered. I actually picked out a different sable female who was more mellow. And her all black sister some how ended up coming home with us too. Lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh NO ----- not two littermates -- not two sisters --- okay I am going to have to go to my reference books and make a separate thread about the disaster that this is .
reference would be Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training - Adaptation and Learning - 


Choose ONE of them. 

breeder should not have let you take two --- what is their interest , the welfare of the dog or the quick sale and $$$.

there are so many threads and posts about problems -- which are a given 

visit this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html

this is NOT a comment about your being an excellent owner -- 

do you know name of sire and dam --- if you post this I am sure someone can find the pedigree of the pooch(es).


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

female x female aggression is common in gsds, being siblings will only add to this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/576970-raising-two-puppies-one-house.html 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-3-1-2-months-old-late-socializing-them.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ly/531562-10-month-old-brothers-fighting.html

and there are more , many, many more .....

choose one --- return the other


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

pattern sable?


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

Thank you for your concern but I found a home for the black puppy. A friend of mine fell in love with her after coming by for a visit.

This was an unplanned litter for the seller/breeder and they were moving out of the state in 2 weeks. They weren't getting a lot of inquires so in a sense they were desperate but they never offered me two puppies. My wife really liked the black pup and I liked the sable pup, so I offered to take them both home. To be honest, I knew I had a better chance finding them a good home if I couldn't keep both of them. I've raised two puppies before but they were not litter mates so I really didn't think this will be any different. I really appreciate your inputs.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Glad you were able to find a home for the second pup, you can always add a second one later on once your current pup is trained. 

We have litter mate females. My wife and I were "all in" with training from the get go, she primarily trained one and I worked with the other. It worked for us, however I can easily see with how challenging Zoey is that in another home she alone would drive some people nuts.


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

Yeah I've noticed ppl freak out when someone gets littermates... personally if you can handle it go for it.. it might be hard in the beginning but with time and patience I personally believe it would have worked out... love that sable pup


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

InControlK9 said:


> Yeah I've noticed ppl freak out when someone gets littermates... personally if you can handle it go for it.. it might be hard in the beginning but with time and patience I personally believe it would have worked out... love that sable pup




Not really a matter of time and patience. With bitches, if they decide out of the blue to hate each other, then that's it. Having dealt with same sex aggression before, it's a serious deal.


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> Not really a matter of time and patience. With bitches, if they decide out of the blue to hate each other, then that's it. Having dealt with same sex aggression before, it's a serious deal.



So just so I'm clear... from what you're saying having 2 females dogs in the same house is a no no due to same sex aggression?

or is it only because they came from the same litter 


...because I know plenty of breeders and dog owners in general that have more than 1 dog of the same sex... and its just like any other owner with 2 dogs.. there will be good days there will be bad they will fight they will get along.. I'm sure every case is different though so not saying that it's not a serious deal.. Guess it just depends on the situation


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

Well, I can say I never had an issue with two females dogs living in the same home. My Boxer and Staffordshire bull terrier were females and they never had an issue with each other. Never fought over food, toys, etc. They even slept in the same crate as one another. I really think it has to do with properly socializing the dogs and their individual personality/temperament. *shrugs*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

LITTERMATES , and two females , and them being littermates . 

You would have similar dynamics with two males , or a male , female pair .

your pup is still within the socially formative time frame of 16 weeks?

whatever decision you make will have life long lasting emotional , social attachments .

these two pups will have a preference for each other , become interdependent , neither one
being a whole dog , or developing to the best of their genetic ability. 
There is no reason to bond with you. 
As time goes on their social flexibility will decrease . 

how's your training ability?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Glad the OP chose to rehome one. That is best overall. 



InControlK9 said:


> So just so I'm clear... from what you're saying having 2 females dogs in the same house is a no no due to same sex aggression?
> 
> or is it only because they came from the same litter
> 
> ...


Actually, some types of dogs pack up well. Fox hounds, and other breeds, generally live in a pack and there is very little fighting. GSDs are not a breed that packs well as a whole. You can have male/male issues, particularly in dogs close in age and power -- double whammie for being littermates. And, yes some folks do just fine with male littermates, I have two friends that have male littermates and are not having an issue. 

That doesn't mean it is common to have no issues. 

Female aggression is different. I've raised female littermates without issues, I've separated female littermates at 18 months, at 12 months, etc. Never having actual fights, but recognizing behavior which indicated the weaker of the two would not reach her potential if she remained living with the littermate. And I have bitches that I separate from everyone else, to keep my blood pressure under control, and my vet bills reasonable. Some bitches are just bitches, with all females. 

Generally speaking, people can let dogs be dogs, and they can often work it out. No one that wants their dog to be alive lets bitches just work it out, at least not GSD bitches. Let them work it out themselves, and the chances are good that you will have one dead bitch, and a bitch that needs to be euthanized. It isn't the same as having two dogs, intact or not. Bitches are different. 

You can have multiple bitches. I do. Babs is in with Quinnie. Jenna is in with Nikki and Nina. Quinn is not yet a year though. While her temperament is such that she is fine with everyone, especially now. I can turn her out with Jenna and Company. I can turn her out with Cujo and Hepsi. I can turn her out with Ramona or Joy. Babsy is almost 11 and chances are good that the two of them, with the age difference will never have an issue -- hoping for that, or both of them will have less room. Nikki and Nina are 2 and they are in with their dam who is almost 11. I think their personalities are such that this just works for them. Jenna is a natural alpha. Nikki is significantly moreso than Nina, but both of them respect their dam, and there is no/zero squabbling. 

The thing is, there is just no way to tell at 8 weeks or even at 8 months whether THIS bitch is going to mesh ok with this other bitch, whether they are naturally farther apart on the personal power scale. Whether one will always defer to the other. And what happens when one is old or ill? Right now I like keeping Jenna in with Nik and Nina. Why? Because they can have both halves of a 14x25' kennel with 2 water buckets, and they all have decided to poop in the back of the second half, and they have no trouble eating -- they have three bowls, but I can give them chicken leg quarters through the fence with no issues. A few days ago I gave them hooves and pigs ears -- the little girls handed them out, high value treats, did not cause any friction. They have a comfortable situation with plenty of room that stays clean. It is convenient for me to keep them together. I can separate them if I must. And I keep that in my head. I watch how they interact when I am interacting with them -- lots of SSA begin over resource guarding, including the owner as a resource. 

Keeping more than one GSD bitch is not something I encourage anyone to do. And if they are going to, I make it clear that they have to have a plan in case they don't get along. 



Dchuck84 said:


> Well, I can say I never had an issue with two females dogs living in the same home. My Boxer and Staffordshire bull terrier were females and they never had an issue with each other. Never fought over food, toys, etc. They even slept in the same crate as one another. I really think it has to do with properly socializing the dogs and their individual personality/temperament. *shrugs*


Yeah, I can put Nikki and Nina in the same crate -- they can fit in a 48" and in a pinch I will do it and have done it. Bitch-bitch aggression in GSDs might be different than with staffies and boxers. I wouldn't know, never have owned the breeds. 

I can tell you that I had Babs in with Hepzibah, for six months or so. Huge gap between them. Babs turned 10 last August and Hepsi turned 4 in March. This was about a year ago. They were fine, toys, treats, no problems. One day I came home to Babsy having a huge puncture hole in her leg. The only thing that was weird was Hepsi was unscathed and both bitches greeted me as though nothing happened. Babsy can be sharp to both dogs and bitches. My best bet is that she started pushing her weight on Hepsi and Hepsi retaliated as a dog might, and it was then over -- Babsy is NOT an alpha. I separated them, even though a lot of times when bitches fight, they HATE each other from that moment on, and there was none of that. 

Jenna is my true alpha. She rarely fights at all. She walks around like the Queen of Sheba, and everyone just gives her the canine equivalent to "Your the boss." One day while she was convalescing from a back injury, I let Heidi out, meaning to get her right out the door and not bother Jenna, but she had other ideas, she attacked Jenna and like a flash, Jenna ended it, I got Heidi out of there and to the vet. Jenna was unhurt -- my fault. Bitches keep you on your toes and a stupid momentary loss of faculties can mean serious injury. This is why it is NOT suggested for average pet owners to keep multiple bitches. 

Ninja is a low-wanna-be-alpha bitch. She will fight with everyone. She was crazy enough to go after Jenna once when Jenna had pups out. I had Ninja in a crate and was cleaning the yard. She broke the crate and flew at Jenna. Jenna took her to the ground by the muzzle. I dragged her by the tail until I could get a gate in between, and managed to get them apart. It wasn't easy, and there was damage. My fault. I took Ninja to the vet. What a pain. Ninja is plain crazy when it comes to my bitches. She is also the bitch that I said, LEAVE IT to, and HEEL, and she walked along next to me all the way back to my car while a Yorkie-mix circled us, lunging and barking and growling. And waited while I unlocked the car and got her into it. SSA is NOT dog aggression. It doesn't translate to dogs outside of the pack. I suppose dogs can be both aggressive to outside dogs, and dogs within the pack. But it certainly isn't always, and isn't typical if I only go with my own experience. 

As the years go buy, you get better. You get better at reading your bitches. You get better at managing your fences and gates. You get better and giving a command that prevents a fight before it begins. You get experienced and something become natural. And there are far fewer incidents. That incident with Babs about a year and a half ago, that I wonder if she got stuck in the doggy door and not actually bitten, was the last injury. And before that one was at least a year more. The thing is, it could still happen, a bitch can walk by another, and it will brush the other the wrong way, and it could be ON. It isn't what most people want to have to manage. Having pets is supposed to lower your blood pressure. Being in the middle of a bitch fight when two bitches that you adore are trying to render the other dead, can give you a heart attack. 

And again, you can't tell at 8 weeks or 8 months whether this beautiful, sweet, gentle puppy is going to turn into the Tasmanian Devil when she is 2.5 years old, and decides that her "sister" just got a bigger hunk of toast than she got. 

Bitches, I LOVE bitches. They are fun. They are beautiful. They are intelligent. They are easy to train. They are companionable. They can also be fast, sneaky, and jealous.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

InControlK9 said:


> Yeah I've noticed ppl freak out when someone gets littermates... personally if you can handle it go for it.. it might be hard in the beginning but with time and patience I personally believe it would have worked out... love that sable pup


 some very experienced people - did not think so 

I am glad that a home has been found for the other dog .
By the way they are good looking pups.

selzer said "Actually, some types of dogs pack up well. Fox hounds, and other breeds, generally live in a pack and there is very little fighting"

sure and beagles too , but they are doggy dogs working on instinct -- try training them -- not good personalized companion dogs --

and the dogs you mentioned Selzer , were they littermates -- that is the important factor


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> Being in the middle of a bitch fight when two bitches that you adore are trying to render the other dead, can give you a heart attack.
> 
> And again, you can't tell at 8 weeks or 8 months whether this beautiful, sweet, gentle puppy is going to turn into the Tasmanian Devil when she is 2.5 years old, and decides that her "sister" just got a bigger hunk of toast than she got.
> 
> Bitches, I LOVE bitches. They are fun. They are beautiful. They are intelligent. They are easy to train. They are companionable. They can also be fast, sneaky, and jealous.



Absolutely. I love bitches too. Way more than dogs (sorry Russell), and I've had 2 GSD bitches together that were 4 months apart. I knew going into it that I could get ugly, but I wanted the second puppy bitch to show. It all worked out, since the second bitch was submissive. If it hadn't, then I would have had to crate and rotate. 

Lots of different breeds get along and don't have same sex aggression. You can put 25 Italian Greyhounds together and there won't be a squabble. I've lived the same sex aggression nightmare with Dobermans. It was ugly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Carmen, 

Hmmmm, 

Babs and Jenna are littermates. I separated them at 18 months due to recognizing that Babsy would not realize her potential staying in the same area with Jenna. 

Heidi was raised with Whitney and Tori, littermates. Tori went home to my brother at 9 weeks and was back at 15 weeks. Whitney died at age 4. Tori, last year at 8. They were together until they were about 15 months. I could keep two in the same kennel, not three -- two would gang up on the third. By 15 months all three were kept separately. 

Milla and Ninja are littermates and they were separated at 15 months. Neither are rocket scientists. Both are fine as pets. Ninja would have to be an only. Milla could be in with anyone. Ninja is more of a fighter, and Milla more of a moderate. Milla is the one that could succeed at just about anything, and Ninja the one that, well, probably wouldn't make it as a service dog. 

Dolly and Bear were littermates. Dolly went home at 8 weeks, and came back to me at six months. (Bad scenario) She was separated from Bear and Beansy, until Bear went home at 10 months and Beansy at 12 months. Bear came back to me at 15 months when his owners wanted to spend the summer camping. I got a great bitch back. She has been separated from her litter mate though, completely. Bear and Beansy were together for 10 months. 

Nikki and Nina are littermates. They were two in March. They are still in with their dam. No problems. 

Personally, I think it is hard to know whether its nature or nurture. Every litter is going to have pups with different personalities. They will not all be alphas. And not all of them will have the right stuff to be a seeing-eye dog. At eight weeks you can make an educated guess. And you may be right a percentage of the time. But maybe the folks that got two, got one that would've made it regardless and one that wouldn't. How can we be certain?

I mean if we were getting litters of 7, and all seven went to separate homes, and litter after litter seven puppies passed the test at 12 months or 18 months; and then we started having families raise two out of each litter and suddenly we were getting 3 out of 7 instead of 6 or 7 out of 7. I suppose we could say that.

ETA: I can and do separate bitches if there are any issues. Most pet-owners don't sign up for that, and would find it terribly difficult to do. I wouldn't suggest it, ever.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> I've lived the same sex aggression nightmare with Dobermans. It was ugly.


It is ugly. Still live it with our female GSD and Boxer. Have to be extremely careful not to set them off. Never have two females at the same time again! Vet bills are expensive!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> It is ugly. Still live it with our female GSD and Boxer. Have to be extremely careful not to set them off. Never have two females at the same time again! Vet bills are expensive!


That last visit to the vet with the Dobes was the final straw. I rehomed the younger bitch that started all the fights. Someone was going to die if I didn't!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Dchuck84 said:


> Well, I can say I never had an issue with two females dogs living in the same home. My Boxer and Staffordshire bull terrier were females and they never had an issue with each other. Never fought over food, toys, etc. They even slept in the same crate as one another. I really think it has to do with properly socializing the dogs and their individual personality/temperament. *shrugs*


I've never had a problem with other breeds, labs, malamute, mixes, beagles, several being females and never an issue. Currently we have litter mate females and they have been more challenging in terms of "keeping the peace". 

This is also the first time we've experienced having a bitch that'll attack weakness. Never heard of it before, but now we know, we are always learning something new.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but they're not GSD are they ?

and the other dogs were not littermates.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

carmspack said:


> but they're not GSD are they ?
> 
> and the other dogs were not littermates.


The black puppy is going to a friend. Which makes me happy, she'll get to see her litter mate but not have to share personal space. So these two will probably be just fine.



Dchuck84 said:


> Thank you for your concern but I found a home for the black puppy. A friend of mine fell in love with her after coming by for a visit.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
but they're not GSD are they ?

and the other dogs were not littermates.
The black puppy is going to a friend. Which makes me happy, she'll get to see her litter mate but not have to share personal space. So these two will probably be just fine.

Yes , I am glad that one of the pups is going to a friend .

the other breeds mentioned are labs and beagles and malamutes, boxers and staffs etc --- which do not have the same GSD breed characteristics which include territoriality , not GSD , and not littermates.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm going to disagree on the comment about other breeds not having traits that cause same sex aggression. In our house, it's the Boxer that attacks. Same sex aggression can happen in any breed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

of course there can be same sex aggression. 

the topic is the difficulties of raising two gsd littermates and how that may affect their future and the owner's a reality check to have them think it over .

in my opinion a responsible breeder would not release two littermates to one person . That is a lazy , "convenient" sale.

at least not to a home .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well since the owner has already rehomed one puppy, it doesn't appear the owner needs a reality check.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think some breeds don't have as much of an issue with SSA. But GSDs, not all GSDs, but they do tend to have the issue more than some other breeds.

Getting GSDs of the same sex or close in age, can cause issues and it would be irresponsible of us as a community to not give people that information when the subject comes up. 

What they do with the information is their business. We should not be irritated or aggressive when people do not take what we say, and act on it the way we think they should.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax I know --- a reality check for anyone contemplating taking home two littermates.

how was that not clear ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carmen - how about you lose the attitude with me? Very little of what you say is clear to a lot of people. It's fragmented, contains quotes from other people that aren't clearly noted, rarely a complete sentence. I'll post whatever I please regardless of what you feel the topic should be.

All I said in response to anything you said was I didn't agree that other breeds don't have same sex aggression. The topic was same sex litter mates. The topic turned to the issues of having more than one female. Many of us shared our experiences with having same sex, regardless of breed and the nightmare of it. 

Relax already.


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

that went "0 to 100 real quick"-Drake


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> of course there can be same sex aggression.
> 
> the topic is the difficulties of raising two gsd littermates and how that may affect their future and the owner's a reality check to have them think it over .
> 
> ...


I would have to agree--no legit breeder is going to send litter mates home with one buyer. 

Nor would there ever be an issue of re homing with a responsible breeder. Right of first refusal should be in the purchase contract.


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