# Questions about Lisl (long)



## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Lisl is now a bit over a year old. I have worked very hard with her on basic obedience as well as 'stupid pet tricks'. She's very easy to train, pays close attention, and is a joy to have around and do things with.

Her and I live alone with little interaction from other people that visit other than my Mom and sister occasionally. She likes my Mom.

She meets many people on our weekly rounds. People from two banks, the Dairy Queen, the music store, the pharmacy, the barber shop, and my work occasionally. She gets along with everyone she meets, though she has barked at a couple of people, she behaves when corrected.

One person she gets along with very well is a chap I used to work with until he took a higher paying job elsewhere. On his last day with the company he asked to see Lisl and I, and I was on vacation at this time so we walked up to see him.

She immediately recognized him and she allowed him to pet her, he got down on one knee and gave her a hug and she didn't mind at all. She gave him a paw when asked.

All in all, a very nice visit. 

I've been working with Lisl about recognizing strangers on our walks and getting her to watch them. That was no problem at all. She watches everyone. Closely. Nothing escapes this dog.

When she was a little puppy about five months old the neighbor was in his driveway and Lisl was off-leash doing her business in the back yard and the neighbor approached the edge of the driveway and Lisl ran between the two of us and started to advance on the neighbor barking aggressively. I was very surprised and embarassed, but he had been a K9 dog handler like his son who lives across the street from me and understood. I thought it was probably a fear reaction, as did many here when I told this tale on the forum.

The next time she did this she received a very stern verbal correction and I pushed her to the ground and was standing over her. She submitted and I moved and the correction was over like nothing happened and we were pals again.

This never happened with the neighbor or any visitors ever again.

Getting back to my friend at work, he asked how her training was coming along and I said very well. He asked if she was aggressive if I told her to go after someone. I said I don't think so unless it's a cat, squirrel, or rabbit, but he insisted that I try and agitate her enough to get her to advance on him.

She was on her big girl nylon 2" collar and a 6' leather agitation lead.

He stood about eight feet from me and I said, "LISL STOP HIM, GO GO GO!" She nearly took the lead out of my hands and was at the end of it up on her rear legs barking and gnashing and doing everything she could to get at the same guy who a minute before was giving her a hug and petting her.

After a few seconds of this and getting my wits together I yelled "OFF OFF OFF!" and she immediately backed off and came and sat at my side. 

He knelt down and called her and I told her it was OK and she went right up to him and let him pet her again and was all excited and wanted to play again.

10 minutes later we repeated this exercise with the same results.

Lisl showed no fear, apprehension, or cowardice towards going after my friend and co-worker when told to do this.

I did not train her to do this. She has always been wary of strangers and will watch you until you are out of sight or doesn't consider you a threat any longer, but I did not train her to do this unless while teaching her something else I was inadvertently teaching her to defend me or herself.

She comes from a working line of K9 dogs. Her half brother lives across the street from me and is the local K9 dog here in this small town.

_Is there anything I could have done without being aware of the consequences while training something else that would result in this behavior? _

She loves to chase the Kong, and furry yard creatures. We play with a flirt pole which she absolutely loves, and anything else that moves. Her prey drive is astounding, and up until now I didn't think her defensive drive was greater than any other GSD that hadn't matured yet.

I'm very hesitant to even post this here, but this has been bothering me ever since it happened several weeks ago. I don't want to be branded as a bad trainer/handler, but I'd like some answers if anyone has seen or heard of this happening before.

I was behind Lisl the whole time both of these exercises happened, but he said he was getting scared the second time and she was very scary looking while this was happening.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't understand what the problem is.
She is a German Shepherd. She comes from a line of K9s.
All GSDs have inherent aggression.
She did what she was told to do, right down to stopping when you called her off.
I think you should be very proud of your girl.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> I don't understand what the problem is.
> She is a German Shepherd. She comes from a line of K9s.
> All GSDs have inherent aggression.
> She did what she was told to do, right down to stopping when you called her off.
> I think you should be very proud of your girl.


Agreed. However I think you should also be very very careful with these "exercises" that you are doing. It's very easy to confuse a dog in training. All this "watching" of strangers, and now you had her "go after" a friend, for no real reason...why? It could have ended badly....she did it once, but is she now going to wonder when dad is going to "sic" her on another friend?? If you want to get into protection go find an experienced professional...it's not a game to test our dog's aggression on our own...especially on friends for no reason....


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Well, the fact is, the buttons were about to pop of my shirt after the second time we did this. My point is, I didn't train her to do this and I was not aware that a line of dogs produced for K9 work would all have these traits and instincts without being trained to do this.

I knew they would be inclined for this sort of work, but without being trained to do so? I was grilled by the breeder for the amount of experience I had working with GSD's and I guess he was satisfied with the answers I gave him before he sold her to me.

I was so proud of her I can't tell ya. She turned on and off like she had a switch. I've never owned a GSD that did this, but I've never owned a working line dog either. Very high-energy, smarter than Einstein, and so lovey-dovey I can hardly believe it's the same dog that would have eaten my friend and co-worker four weeks ago.

There is no problem, just questions.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Agreed. However I think you should also be very very careful with these "exercises" that you are doing. It's very easy to confuse a dog in training. All this "watching" of strangers, and now you had her "go after" a friend, for no real reason...why? It could have ended badly....she did it once, but is she now going to wonder when dad is going to "sic" her on another friend?? If you want to get into protection go find an experienced professional...it's not a game to test our dog's aggression on our own...especially on friends for no reason....


These 'exercises' aren't going to happen again. He asked, I was curious, and she complied. 

I'm not 'sicing' the dog on anyone. Yours is a reply that I expected and why I was hesitant to even post this.

I know about the consequences and don't need a lecture on protective instruction for a GSD. 

I was looking for reasons why when I told her to do this she complied with no training unless it was something i inadvertently did while training in other areas.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> These 'exercises' aren't going to happen again. He asked, I was curious, and she complied.
> 
> I'm not 'sicing' the dog on anyone. Yours is a reply that I expected and why I was hesitant to even post this.
> 
> ...


Sigh....I always laugh at these posts, because really, most of the time, OP wants an atta-boy, and to be told how awesome their dog is....your dog did what you wanted it to do...was it confused? Will it take something away from this you didn't expect? maybe, maybe not. Did it do what it was "supposed to do"?? Maybe, maybe not...wasn't there, didn't see. Did you do something to create this? Maybe, maybe not....maybe you are creating a lot of suspision in this dog via the "watching" and your own attitude...dog is only a year old...easy to create reactivity around this time I believe. I would just be very careful is all. Our dogs read so much more of us than we know, and if you are wanting her to be on edge, she is going to read that....and with no trainer guiding you along this path it could be dangerous....you'll probably be okay...but just be careful is all I'm saying...but just like you "got the reaction" you expected...so did I.....and that was after you went over to a different thread and posted this thread asking for comments....maybe you weren't getting comments because everyone was thinking this was silly and potentially dangerous but knew you didn't want to hear that....


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

"this has been bothering me ever since it happened several weeks ago."

I was so proud of her I can't tell ya.

Then why come on here?? This is why I made the "atta-boy" comment....you wanted everyone to think it was "bothering you" when in reality you were "so proud you couldn't tell"......why post then, if you like what you are doing/seeing?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I asked in the other thread because the Gentleman claimed to have 30 years of experience training GSD's and I happened upon reading it.

The reaction that I expected from Lisl was to just sit there and look up at me. Or look and jump around looking for a squirrel or rabbit.

I'm not looking for approval, validation, atta boy, or any other gratifying compliments or comments. I asked the question because I wondered if I had done anything wrong in her earlier training.

Yes, Lisl is pretty awesome to me. She did something inherent in her breed and the line she comes from with no intervention from me. I think that is a bit out of the ordinary with no training.

I don't live far from neighborhoods that are not quite as nice as the Ladue area of St. Louis, and I walk late at night because of my shifts. I expect her to be a second set of eyes for us while walking hence the 'watching'. That doesn't mean biting, attacking, lunging, or barking. And she doesn't do any of those things.

Why don't we let some other members reply if they would like to. I think you are reading way too much into this thread. You don't know me or my dog so I would appreciate you not judging me and you can keep the rest of your opinions to yourself.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i had a show line many years ago that would attack on command
and come to me when called off. i never trained him to attack.
one day i was watching some Schutzhund training with my dog.
the guy in the bite suit came over and started asking questions
about my dog's training because he was sitting and watching the
training calmly. he ask me "will he attack". i told him i've never had 
him do anything like that. the guy backs up and tells me "send him 
after me". i think i said " get em". my dog took off after this guy
like he was trained to attack. the guy yells "come and get him".
i started towards them and i called my dog. he let go of the sleeve
and came to me. the guy said "let's do it again but this i'm going to
tap him". the guy had a little thin rubber like stick. i told my dog to "get em"
and again he took off after the guy. the guy tapped him with the stick and he
didn't let go. i called him and he came to me. the guy walks over to
us and stands there talking to me and then he petted my dog like
nothing happened. 




MichaelE said:


> >>>>> Well, the fact is, the buttons were about to pop of my shirt after the second time we did this. My point is, I didn't train her to do this and I was not aware that a line of dogs produced for K9 work would all have these traits and instincts without being trained to do this.<<<<<
> 
> I knew they would be inclined for this sort of work, but without being trained to do so? I was grilled by the breeder for the amount of experience I had working with GSD's and I guess he was satisfied with the answers I gave him before he sold her to me.
> 
> ...


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks for your story DD.

I guess it is not unexpected then from a working K9 line even without formal training.

After my first two GSD's I'd always considered myself a good obedience/SPT trainer, and I had been thinking what did I do wrong with this dog for her to react like that.

I've never owned a GSD from a working K9 line. She is really smart.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MichaelE said:


> Thanks for your story DD.
> 
> I guess it is not unexpected then from a working K9 line even without formal training.
> 
> ...


Back in the 80's and I'm dating myself here I was a young mom with a Shepherd mix and an Akita. A guy knocked on the door and wanted to come in to test the water. Said he was from the water company. I got a hinky feeling about the whole thing. Guy started to push my screen door open. The growl that came out of my Shepherd would have scared me had she not been mine. He backed off and left. A couple of days later I found out that some guy claiming to be from the water company had forced his way into a home and raped someone. Shortly after that I left town to go to a funeral. I had a cab pick me up at the house I think someone saw that I was leaving and thought the house was gong to be empty because that night someone jumped our back fence. The dogs went tearing out the house, dragged the guy onto the ground and were biting at his face. My husband half asleep didn't know what the heck was going on but called the dogs off. They came right back to him. The guy hopped up and was over the fence in a flash. Hubby called the cops but they never caught the guy. 

Needless to say shortly after that we moved out of the city. LOL Same Shepherd female a few years later again saved me and the kids. This time it was a rattlesnake. No formal training what so ever. Just a very strong protective instinct.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

These dogs are truly amazing. They have to be the smartest, most cognisant dogs on the planet.

*Back in the 80's and I'm dating myself here I was a young mom...*

I was a young father in the Air Force in the early eighties. I know...


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

if you want to train her for protection i'd be wary of doing this with a "friend". you might confuse the dog. if you want to do schutzhund and want her to think its all a game then its fine.

you linked to the other thread asking people to look at your thread when they dont have anything to do with each other, so yeah, you were looking for an atta boy. pat yourself on the back for me! good boy!


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I don't want her trained for protection. I don't want her trained in Schutzhund. She is trained in obedience and is my companion dog and my friend. That's all I expect of her.

I was not looking for an atta boy. You missed the part where this member said he had 30 years training GSD's just like the other poster. I was asking this Gentleman to look at the thread, not anyone else.

I'll just put you on ignore along with the other know it all.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Would have been interesting to see if she'd have gone through with a bite and pressed an attack. Of course I don't suggest you test this without the proper equipment, but just saying would be interesting.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

No, I won't be doing that unless I have a qualified trainer present. I don't see that happening. Ever.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MichaelE said:


> These dogs are truly amazing. They have to be the smartest, most cognisant dogs on the planet.
> ..


Yep.
If I hide Hans's ball and tell him to go search, he will methodically search, and do a thorough job, doing exactly what I have seen drug dogs do on TV, and it is a joy to watch. 
I do believe a littermate of his is a bomb dog. I can certainly see why. :wub:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Motivation is 90% of the game. I completely made that statistic up but you get the point.


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

Why not get her into shutzhund? Sounds like she'd do well and give her a "job" to feel better about...


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I really don't have the time.

She is obedience trained and knows a few stupid pet tricks and that's all I require of her except to keep me company.

I don't have any doubt that she would probably excel in Schutzhund with proper instruction, but I didn't buy her for that.

I'm thinking of agility training in the spring. She jumps like a kangaroo. Last night she scaled a five foot retaining wall near downtown. I wouldn't let her jump off though. I grabbed her and let her down to the ground.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I think this is part of your dog's genetics, you said she is from professional working stock, this is what they do.

One time when I was in the parking lot of Petsmart, this man walked up to me and Molly and said, he loves GSDs and wanted to tell me these dogs are so smart. If I were ever in real danger, my dog would come through for me - trust her to do that. So that is what I think Lisl was doing.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> Lisl is now a bit over a year old.
> 
> Her and I live alone with little interaction from other people that visit other than my Mom and sister occasionally. She likes my Mom.
> 
> ...


There are so many think wrong here that I'll have to make a list:

1. You state _*"I've been working with Lisl about recognizing strangers on our walks and getting her to watch them"*_ yet you're honestly asking*"Is there anything I could have done without being aware of the consequences while training something else that would result in this behavior?".* I'm sorry but you'd have to be pretty clueless not to make the connection between what you've been "working on" with your dog and it's subsequent behaviour.

2. You're violently discouraging your dog's aggression by putting it in an alpha roll, yet when your doofus friend asks you to set your dog on him (possibly having suicidal thoughts?), you're completely fine with it??? You were obviously expecting her to act aggressively upon agitation, otherwise you wouldn't have agreed. Especially if you've been conditioning her to act suspiciously toward strangers - so stop playing possum.

3. She looks like a glamour-coated pet breed, not what you'd traditionally expect to see from a working line. I know that none of the working lines in my country are glamour-coats. Did you actually get her pedigree when you bought her?

4. A working line breeder sold their dog to someone who still "alpha rolls" in 2013 and deliberately encourages civil aggression???? I've met some pretty pathetic breeders in my time but if they can't pick up on your irresponsible nature and archaic dog training methods then I feel sorry for the fate of the breed in your country.

So, I don't think your dogs behaviour is typical of the breed. Stability, level-headedness and nerve - these are qualities of the breed. Rather, I think it's typical of an owner that is deliberately creating a neurotic and fear-aggressive dog for his own bizarre sense of gratification.

I can not think of anything I have read or seen that would suggest that working line shepherds have some magic button that turns them into an aggressive monster, nor another convenient button that calls them off immediately. It takes years of training and a very strong genetic background for a dog to be turned into anything close to a patrol dog. And professional trainers know that they need to exercise extreme caution when agitating the dog. And, *even then* only like 1% of those dogs qualify. In short, it takes something extremely special from both handler and dog.

Your dog is sharp, it has a low threshold toward aggression and more often than not, this is just a sign of neuroticism and fear.

Furthermore, what the monkey are you doing siccing your dog on someone in the first place??? I don't buy your story about being completely naïve with regards to what reaction your dog might have had. You already have a sharp dog, I mean running out between you and your neighbour for no apparent reason and barking at him? Seriously? Confident dogs just don't do that.

Working line shepherds have inherit suspicion, this is true, but it is balanced with other traits, most importantly, nerve. So you most likely have a nervy, fear-aggressive dog on your hands now, partly due to your own irresponsibility as an owner. 

The problem I have with this, beside you being generally ignorant, is that you're creating a liability. You're playing possum in this thread, but the fact is, you agreed to allow your friend to set your dog on him. Not only are you putting your friend in danger, but you're putting the community in danger as well. Furthermore, you're creating an extremely neurotic dog by encouraging this kind of behaviour. How can your dog enjoy it's life if you expect it to be extremely suspicious of every single person it meets out on a walk? And to light up on anyone at the drop of a hat?

You're worsening what weak nerves your dog was already genetically predisposed. My shelter bitch is very sharp around the house and quite weak nerved. I could easily encourage aggressive behaviour in her, but why would I do that? She's already a good watch dog by nature, I want my dog to be confident, not living in a state of constant fear.

Someone had to grill you properly. I'm just surprised it hasn't happened yet. Could we get some actually protection sport folk in here to explain, *EXACTLY* why it's a bad idea to have Joe Scmo come over and agitate their dog for their own gratification..... please


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MichaelE said:


> These dogs are truly amazing. They have to be the smartest, most cognisant dogs on the planet.
> 
> *Back in the 80's and I'm dating myself here I was a young mom...*
> 
> I was a young father in the Air Force in the early eighties. I know...


LOL my husband was in the Air Force then as well.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

the op rolls his dog and yells at it for barking aggressively and then turns around the encourages the same behavior on his friend and then say he's proud of his dog. lol seriously?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Did he work for SAC back then? I was assigned to the 351st SMW at Whiteman AFB.

Nice to hear from some AF people from back then.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MichaelE said:


> Did he work for SAC back then? I was assigned to the 351st SMW at Whiteman AFB.
> 
> Nice to hear from some AF people from back then.


He was in the 93 AMS out of Castle AFB.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Tell him hi! from another Air Force member.


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