# Why should only titled German Shepherd's be bred?



## Germanshepherdlova

Why is it that every time a person comes on this forum and says that they want to breed their dog they are asked the same question.....What titles does your dog have? German Shepherds don't have to be titled to make great companions and pets. As long as the dog is healthy, has good hips, and a great temperament why is the title so important? Not every one is looking for a dog to send into competitions or shows. As a matter of fact the average GSD owner is just looking for an awesome new friend. 

I have always wandered about the mentality of only titled dogs breeding on this forum, but today I dare to ask...why is this mandatory according to many people on this forum?


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## crisp

Because titles are a way to prove and measure the termperament and other factors of the dog. Otherwise its just someones word.


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## Jax08

Titling is a way of determining if the dog has the temperament, drives, intelligence to be breeding stock worthy. There are a couple of breeders on here that do NOT title their dogs but their dogs ARE working dogs that go into such lines as police work. Those dogs are tested by their working ability.

It's not that only dogs that are titled are breed worthy. It's that not all pets are! Everyone loves their dog. I adore mine. No way is she breed worthy. She's fear aggressive towards other dogs. A bit of a prey monster. Scared to death of a freaking fly swatter! Can you imagine her herding sheep in a thunderstorm?! Then these traits get passed down and multiply by breeding to other wonderful, beloved pets with similar traits and then you have a dog that will bite anything that comes across it's path.

Is titling required? No. Maybe the question should be "How have you worked your dog to determine if their qualities should be passed on?"

And to be quite honest...most of the people asking those questions are NOT breeders. They are people who have seen others ask the question and just keep passing it on because that's what they think should be asked. It's how internet experts are created.


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## Liesje

For one, it is mandatory in Germany under the breed's parent club. Whether that should be so is up for debate, but, just sayin'.....

For me personally, I can't just take someone's word for it that because a dog is a great pet and has a good temperament means it is a sound, working dog. Now there are some people that I do trust to make such an assessment, but all those people are out there training and working (and generally titling) their dogs.


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## doggiedad

this isn't exclusive to GSD's (Germansherdlova).

[QUOTE=crisp;2217522]Because titles are a way to prove and measure the termperament and other factors of the dog. Otherwise its just someones word.[/QUOTE]


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

First, I agree with the reasons everyone has stated so far.
Second, while it's true that most people are looking for a pet when getting a GSD, a GSD is a working dog. Without the good breeders breeding proven working dogs, the working aspect of a GSD could disappear, which IMO would be very sad.


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## Greydusk

I don't have a titled dog, I adopted him, don't know if his parents were titled or not. What I do know is he's not something that should be bred. There are certain traits that are synonymous with a GSD. Titles or working the dog in some way show that the dog has those traits. 

If you don't want those traits, don't get a GSD. I got my dog because he had the personality to fit in with my lifestyle, not because he was a German Shepherd. 

If I want a working dog to do a task, I'm going to go to a breeder who's dogs do those things. If I just want a pet, I'm going to the shelter.


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## brembo

Titled dogs have a history, a proven track record. It's offers a resource with which a dog's potential can be somewhat foretold. It helps in giving that "leg up" on avoiding genetic issues. In short, it's a way to stack the deck with desired traits.

There are already too many dogs, so so many get euthed in the US. Why go and breed unknowns in hopes that the offspring is something that people will want? Best to take known entities and increase chances that the pups will be a viable "product" and will all get good homes and not end up in the pound.

Breeding NEEDS to be done by people with experience. Again it increases the chances that the pups will end up in a permanent home with excellent future prospects. 

Leave the breeding to the pros. Need a companion? Breed rescues are everywhere (because people DIDN'T leave it to the pros). It's a rare day you'll find a papered and titled GSD in a shelter, as proper breeders will take their dogs back at any time.


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## Scarlettsmom

If you rescue a GSD because someone before you was unable to care for him/her, you have virtually no way to find out the "title"...so you are left with your own judgement as to whether or not the dog is a good fit for you. Also, they are almost always spayed/neutered, so breeding is no longer a concern, so a title is not an issue either. 

If you want a puppy, then I suppose title is more important. I can see how it would be more important to know where your dog came from. I never gave it much thought before.


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, a title says nothing about a dogs temperament. You wouldn't believe how many of the crappiest GSD's are titled and bred and produce yet again, more crappy dogs. 

You wouldn't believe how many dogs are absolutely handler and dog aggressive, yet they are titled and get bred. 

Dogs that you would NEVER wanted to see in a breeding program. 

If you don't know the dog personally, never seen it work, never seen it interacting with other dogs and people, it's just a titled and says absolutely nothing about the dogs personality and/or temperament. All it says is that somebody has taken the time to train that dog.


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## lhczth

And all the things we test for, the nerves, character, temperament, drives, etc help also to develop good pets. Pets should be just as sound in nerves, just as sound around people, just as strong in character and temperament as the dog out there searching for a lost child. "Just a pet" should never mean settling for dogs terrified of thunderstorms, that have to be put away when friends come over, that you have to watch around your kids' friends, that can't be left alone because they tear up your house, can't be walked down the street because they want to eat every dog or person they see......... Titling is just one of the ways to at least do a minimum amount of testing to help preserve what is a GSD and to keep it a sound working dog and pet.


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## Mrs.K

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> First, I agree with the reasons everyone has stated so far.
> Second, while it's true that most people are looking for a pet when getting a GSD, a GSD is a working dog. Without the good breeders breeding proven working dogs, the working aspect of a GSD could disappear, which IMO would be very sad.


Trust me, that will NEVER happen. Too many working line GSD breeders out there trying to better the breed. Not going to happen anytime soon. 

And by the way. A solid&sound working dog should be just as much of a good pet as he would be a good working dog. A solid dog should be able to spend his life in a pet home just as much working. If he can't there is something wrong with that dog. 

Judge is a high drive dog from strong working lines and he's living his life as a pet in my home. NO ISSUES AT ALL. He barely gets worked at all. He has access to the backyard, there is no distructive behavior... nothing at all. He's just a pet because of his deformity and will be a year in September. He's a solid and sound dog that could be place in any kind of family. THAT is what you want in a German Shepherd. The ability to adapt to any given situation and a SOLID dog CAN adapt!


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## doggiedad

you're right not everyone is interested in
competition or showing. i think everyone
is interested or should be interested in a sound dog.

i'm not sure how you know what the average
GSD owner is interested in.



Germanshepherdlova said:


> Not every one is looking for a dog to send into competitions or shows.
> 
> As a matter of fact the average GSD owner is just looking for an awesome new friend.


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## lhczth

Something else a titles says (and not always since, yes, there are people who buy titles) is that the owner/handler/breeder did more with their dog than just making puppies. 

Mrs. K. anyone who buys puppies or breeds based solely on titles and scores is a fool. I will agree with you there. The system, though, while not perfect is better than what many so called breeders are doing in this country.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Mrs.K said:


> Trust me, that will NEVER happen. Too many working line GSD breeders out there trying to better the breed. Not going to happen anytime soon.
> 
> And by the way. A solid&sound working dog should be just as much of a good pet as he would be a good working dog. A solid dog should be able to spend his life in a pet home just as much working. If he can't there is something wrong with that dog.
> 
> Judge is a high drive dog from strong working lines and he's living his life as a pet in my home. NO ISSUES AT ALL. He barely gets worked at all. He has access to the backyard, there is no distructive behavior... nothing at all. He's just a pet because of his deformity and will be a year in September. He's a solid and sound dog that could be place in any kind of family. THAT is what you want in a German Shepherd. The ability to adapt to any given situation and a SOLID dog CAN adapt!


I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was using an extreme example to make a point about it no one cared about titles and working, a GSD may no longer be a working dog.


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## VaBeachFamily

Lisa, I agree. I am no breeder, or a pro in any sense, but when I did pick up my pup, I asked to see the parents around kids, around other animals, around us in general, and around the livestock, and the breeder complied with all of my requests. I mean, my first glance was that there WAS Sieger and working lines, the parents DO work, and that the OFA and all came back good, but after that, I passed up on two litters because I just didn't like the parents, including one that was a Sch II, with a show ****. 

I would also like to add that, as said before, NOT ALL working dogs are titled. Real working farm dogs don't have herding titles, police dogs, and I also believe a good Search and Rescue dog or cadaver dog is JUST AS GOOD as a Schutzhund dog!


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## Liesje

I agree with Lisa. It's not really the title itself that I"m looking at, but the title implies that *something* has been done with the dog (and I like to look at breeders that actually train and title, not ones that just buy titled dogs or ship dogs around for slap titling). It's more about what you learn about the dog during the process, and that can't be learned just by saying the dog is a good pet.


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## Samba

It comes down to understanding of the breed. Breeders who title their dogs learn about them.they observe their strengths and weaknessses. I would trust someone who had titled many dogs or trained them in work successfully, to breed an untitled one. Not all titled dogs are breedworthy. The knowledgeable breeder knows this also.

So, by making a case for titles, we are making a case for knowledge and deep understanding of the breed. Something most coming on wanting to breed their dog do not have. Having a pedigree is all many think is needed...and some not even that!


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## Chicagocanine

Mrs.K said:


> If you don't know the dog personally, never seen it work, never seen it interacting with other dogs and people, it's just a titled and says absolutely nothing about the dogs personality and/or temperament. All it says is that somebody has taken the time to train that dog.


So if you are looking for a breeder/puppy, if you can't see their dogs in person how can you tell if you are choosing a dog from good parents/temperaments?


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## Mrs.K

Chicagocanine said:


> So if you are looking for a breeder/puppy, if you can't see their dogs in person how can you tell if you are choosing a dog from good parents/temperaments?


You do research on the internet, watch videos if they are posted, talk to people who know and have seen that dog personally, know the history of the lines and know what you can expect. 
Read Magazines and follow his track record. If it is a good dog, he will be discussed on certain Forums, at Dog Clubs and pretty much anywhere Schutzhund People get together. If he's the new rising star, people will discuss that dog all over the world. 

The Staatsmacht dogs are the best example. You will get to hear good and bad things about them and you have to take everything with a grain of salt. 

However, a breeder will most likely never tell you the flaws of their dogs. Good breeders wont lie to you but they will not tell you everything either. So you have to ask around and talk to people.


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## selzer

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Why is it that every time a person comes on this forum and says that they want to breed their dog they are asked the same question.....What titles does your dog have? German Shepherds don't have to be titled to make great companions and pets. As long as the dog is healthy, has good hips, and a great temperament why is the title so important? Not every one is looking for a dog to send into competitions or shows. As a matter of fact the average GSD owner is just looking for an awesome new friend.
> 
> I have always wandered about the mentality of only titled dogs breeding on this forum, but today I dare to ask...why is this mandatory according to many people on this forum?


It is NOT mandatory. In fact some very good breeders have not titled dogs in years. But there are two things that titles give us. One is that the dog (potential breeding dog) is stable enough to be in the dog show environment, with dogs barking, people nervous, busy, busy, buys, and do what they have been trained to do. It tells the owner what kind of temperament the dog has, though by that point the owners know, the title itself is for the potential customers to know that the breeder knows. The second tells us that the breeder knows something about training, about trialing, cares enough about the breed to make it their business to know. 

Now if that breeder knows how to train and work a dog in police or military service or as a search and rescue dog, or as a herding dog, that is definitely as good if not better than any title. 

But just because you want the dog as a pet, you do not need a dog that can be titled in the ring. And maybe your puppy is not champion material -- every dog should be capable of being titled, but not all have it in them to be the best of the best. But you are thinking why should I hold out for someone who does this, my dog is only going to be a pet. 

What does a pet need? 

A breeder places puppies in all kinds of environments and puppies adjust to them. Some people start from early on taking the puppy to soccer games, and street fairs, and pet stores, have their children learn to treat the pup respectfully, and their friends also. That pup will be raised in and out of the chaos of a young family. It has to be solid enough not to over-react to the children's friends or parents, but chances are good, if he comes from good stock, he will be raised around enough chaos to become accostomed to the normal setting.

But what about the pup that goes to the middle aged working couple, or retired couple with no kids? Perhaps they make it a point to socialize the pup and get out there and do it. But sometimes pups spend the majority of their time within a quiet home with only one or two adults. This pup can have issues, and if his parents were not sound, did not have good temperament, this dog is likely to be a liability. 

In fact with my set up, and with those who have a pack of dogs that they train and trial or breed or whatever, we can manage a dog with weak nerves, much better than a family with kids, or a quiet adult couple. People might say they want a dog that will guard, but people do not want a dog that will attack their adult children or grand children when they come over. People do not want a dog that they have to shut up in the garage or basement when people come over. 

Getting a dog that is out of parents that do not go to pieces in a crowd does not guaranty that the puppy will also be similar, but it stacks the deck in your favor. It does not mean you do not have to train and socialize, but if you train and socialize the puppy, the chances are very good that you will have a dog that you do not have to pen up, or that does not have to be put down because he is a liability. 

I think it is important for new buyers to look for breeders who title their dogs. And for new breeders to see it as essential. When you are working on your next dog, and you know a bunch of people and you have a good idea what is what, then decide whether someone's knowledge and experience with the breed, makes him a good candidate to assess his own breeding dogs how he sees fit, without bias to his dogs.

Just because someone has been breeding for a number of years, or so many litters per year, or has a spectacular website, or beautiful dogs -- none of that says they truly know how to assess their dog on their own. But there are people who have been in the business for a long time, who have titled dogs or worked with dogs, produced dogs. But you have to get to know these people, or get a good recommendation from someone you trust. Have to know enough to know whether they know. Or you have to trust them.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, a title says nothing about a dogs temperament. You wouldn't believe how many of the crappiest GSD's are titled and bred and produce yet again, more crappy dogs.
> 
> You wouldn't believe how many dogs are absolutely handler and dog aggressive, yet they are titled and get bred.
> 
> Dogs that you would NEVER wanted to see in a breeding program.
> 
> If you don't know the dog personally, never seen it work, never seen it interacting with other dogs and people, it's just a titled and says absolutely nothing about the dogs personality and/or temperament. All it says is that somebody has taken the time to train that dog.


I agree, that is why I don't understand the big fuss about only breeding titled dogs.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> German Shepherds don't have to be titled to make great companions and pets. As long as the dog is healthy, has good hips, and a great temperament why is the title so important? Not every one is looking for a dog to send into competitions or shows. As a matter of fact the average GSD owner is just looking for an awesome new friend.


And how do you determine health, good hips, and great temperament? How do you know if these things will be passed on? Do you just go by someone's word? 

Health is mostly self-evident, and there are tests that can be done for some of the things we can't see. Hips are proven by x-rays. What is temperament proven by? 

Titles are one way, not the only way... dogs that have real jobs with police, SAR, etc. is another way. But you have to have a test of some sort, judged by an impartial, experienced, knowledgable eye. Otherwise, how do you trust the person when they say "my dog has great temperament" ? I say, prove it! 

Even "pet" GSDs have to have good health, hips, and temperament. So to ensure that the next generation of GSDs will make someone an awesome new friend, dogs intended for breeding should pass health, hip, and temperament tests of some sort IMO. In Germany it is mandatory.


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## Samba

This is not an excuse not to title in any way that I can tell.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I agree, that is why I don't understand the big fuss about only breeding titled dogs.


It's kinda like a college degree. If I'm a potential boss I don't care about your degree; I care what you learned while you were earning that degree. If I'm a potential puppy buyer I don't care that the parents have a title; I care what we learned about those parents while they were earning those titles. 

As a potential puppy buyer it is *impossible* to judge the temperament and nerves of the parents in one visit to the breeder's house. How many times have we heard some variation of "I went to the breeder's house and the parents seemed nice. . ."? 

No.

If you want to go with both of the puppy's parents to a ball game, to a parade, to Christmas morning when there's 87 grandkids running around and riding their new Power Wheels, to July 4 and New Year's Eve when the fireworks are going off-- fine, you can probably get a good evaluation of their temperament. 

Just like a college degree tells us that this 22-year old kid has passed the minimum standards for a certain institution, a title tells us this dog has passed the minimum standards for passing that particular test. Just like you wouldn't hire every kid with a degree, you wouldn't buy a puppy from every dog with a title, but it's a good place to start.


No dog *needs* to be bred. There are quite enough pet-quality GSDs in the world already, thank you. Show me what this dog has done to prove it deserves to be bred. "He's pretty and sweet and he doesn't bite the kids and he barks when someone knocks on the door" just doesn't cut it.


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## onyx'girl

> I agree, that is why I don't understand the big fuss about only breeding titled dogs.


Well, who would you rather support? A breeder that works their dogs and puts titles(not sent out for titling) on them or one that just breeds for the sake of breeding and you have no idea the ability that the dogs may have? 

I'd rather give my money to one that is involved in the breed by investing in what they are breeding. 
Most breeders that work their dogs, invest the money they make from pups to train/title and show the world what their program is about. Reputation/word gets out when you see dogs excelling and then people are more apt to buy from those breeders, its a no brainer!


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## Jack's Dad

Does anyone remember the schutzhund trial video posted by Vandal a while back.Some of the dogs were afraid of the helpers and actually ran away. If they did get their titles you couldn't have given me one of them.
Getting a dog can be a bit of a crap shoot but good breeders give you a big edge in getting temperament and nerve.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Greydusk said:


> I don't have a titled dog, I adopted him, don't know if his parents were titled or not. What I do know is he's not something that should be bred. There are certain traits that are synonymous with a GSD. Titles or working the dog in some way show that the dog has those traits.
> 
> If you don't want those traits, don't get a GSD. I got my dog because he had the personality to fit in with my lifestyle, not because he was a German Shepherd.
> 
> If I want a working dog to do a task, I'm going to go to a breeder who's dogs do those things. If I just want a pet, I'm going to the shelter.


So are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't want to work their GS has no right to get a puppy and should only go to the shelter and see what they have available? I have heard of many breeders who say they have GS's that will make wonderful family dogs. What would happened to those available puppies that didn't quite make the cut to compete, but would make wonderful companions- if only dogs with specific traits are worthy of being purchased?


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## Freestep

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, a title says nothing about a dogs temperament. You wouldn't believe how many of the crappiest GSD's are titled and bred and produce yet again, more crappy dogs.
> 
> You wouldn't believe how many dogs are absolutely handler and dog aggressive, yet they are titled and get bred.
> 
> Dogs that you would NEVER wanted to see in a breeding program.
> 
> If you don't know the dog personally, never seen it work, never seen it interacting with other dogs and people, it's just a titled and says absolutely nothing about the dogs personality and/or temperament. All it says is that somebody has taken the time to train that dog.


This is true... titles are not the be-all and end-all, but we have to have some kind of test. Just because a few people abuse the system does not mean all titles are garbage--no system is perfect, but at least there is a system in place.

You also should ask around about the dog, contacting people who have seen and/or worked with the dog to get a real picture of the dog's character. It is also good to meet the dog if at all possible.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I have read many books and watched videos on how to do a temperament test on a puppy. There are many different ways of determining how a puppy responds to various situations, including being held in a certain positions, etc that claim that you can judge a puppy's temperament by administering these tests. Are these tests not helpful then in determining a puppy's temperament? And if so, why?*Please only someone with experience in temperament testing answer this question as an accurate answer to this is important to me.*


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## selzer

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I agree, that is why I don't understand the big fuss about only breeding titled dogs.


I don't know that I agree with that assessment of titled dogs. I put a poll out there asking how many people had dogs that were titled. And 50 responded I think. Some of them with just a CGC but plans to go farther. Now I do not expect all of 2000 members to see or respond to a stupid poll, but 50? 

Maybe in Germany where it is required to have a title on breeding stock in order to get pink papers on the puppies, maybe there we have handler aggressive dogs and whatever else was listed. Actually, I do AKC, and am not into schutzhund, I have NEVER seen an handler aggressive dog in any level of titling at dog shows, save maybe one Akita. I mean unless the people have their dogs on Riddlin for the show, they just aren't there, not around here. The GSDs I have seen at shows, and I have been to at least fifty, have been calm, and good dogs, for the most part good with dogs too. 

In order to get a dog a title, you have to get out there with the dog to a show where there are dogs, and people, and distractions. The dog has to be able to walk on a lead without a prong collar or shock collar within the show grounds. These devices are not permitted on the grounds. The dog cannot go around biting people. The dog cannot lose its mind and run away, if it does, it does not get its title leg that day. Now it is possible to go through a lengthy process of desensitizing the dog to the dog show atmosphere, but frankly, I think it would make just as much sense to get another dog. 

Maybe working lines are crazier. Many say they are more stable. I just do not see handler aggression at all in show lines, but maybe I am just not seeing it because we are not doing the same things with them. 

Again, if the dog is titled, at three different shows, at least two people without a dog in the fight, had to pass the dog on its training and behavior in the ring. That says more to me than someone just saying, well, he could get a title, his temperament is great.

And, people who are always grousing that titles mean nothing, maybe they should go out and get some and prove that they mean nothing.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Selzer, I'd like to look into this more because it is important to me that my next dog have sound temperament. I wonder statistically speaking how many dogs born to titled parents are born with bad temperament? (aggressive or fear issues)


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## Samba

I have seen many more problems out of dogs not titled. Especially those with no testing 
For strength of character for several generations.


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## selzer

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I have read many books and watched videos on how to do a temperament test on a puppy. There are many different ways of determining how a puppy responds to various situations, including being held in a certain positions, etc that claim that you can judge a puppy's temperament by administering these tests. Are these tests not helpful then in determining a puppy's temperament? And if so, why?*Please only someone with experience in temperament testing answer this question as an accurate answer to this is important to me.*


Not a lot of experience, I had someone temperament test Jenna/Gispo's first litter. It was the test in the back of The Art of Raising a Puppy by the monks of New Skete. There were ten pups in the litter. And it does include lifting the puppies, and doing various things with them. I have to admit, the test was dead nuts on all of them. 

Now I went over the temperament testing with prospective owners. So there may have been an element of "mine says she will be a little more independent, or less confident but gentle" and maybe considering that they could have conditioned their dog to resemble the test, but ten different owner/handlers? 

However, none of the dogs were shy or had poor nerves. I do not know whether this test could give you that kind of information. It maybe good at determining what a well bred litter's pups will be like, but may be awful on determining whether a pup will have weak nerves. 

A breeder cannot administer the test, a third party that the pups do not know must do this. It depends on when the test is given, 31 day answers or 63 day answers may not mean the same as 49 day answers. Hard to say. 

I would not risk 1500 - 3500 dollars on the outcome of temperament testing, especially based on some dominance theories that are not given as much credibility these days.


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## sagelfn

To the OP-
What is a good temperament to you?


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## Sunstreaked

I'm wondering if a lot of it has to do with how stupid people can be about breeding:

Craigslist - 8/9/2011

Dog breeding (Miami) 

I'm looking for a female dog for my chihuahua to mate with. He is in his heat period, where all the time he is horny! I'd like to get some puppies from him. Please if you have or know someone that might have a female chihuahua for my chihuahua to mate with please contact me as soon as possible at XXX-XXX-XXXX.


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## W.Oliver

lhczth said:


> And all the things we test for, the nerves, character, temperament, drives, etc help also to develop good pets. Pets should be just as sound in nerves, just as sound around people, just as strong in character and temperament as the dog out there searching for a lost child. "Just a pet" should never mean settling for dogs terrified of thunderstorms, that have to be put away when friends come over, that you have to watch around your kids' friends, that can't be left alone because they tear up your house, can't be walked down the street because they want to eat every dog or person they see......... Titling is just one of the ways to at least do a minimum amount of testing to help preserve what is a GSD and to keep it a sound working dog and pet.


Amen.

.....and I would add tradition in regards to Schutzhund. I appreciate the history of the GSD and it's work. I respect being a small part of that by training and testing the dog....and myself.


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## selzer

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Selzer, I'd like to look into this more because it is important to me that my next dog have sound temperament. I wonder statistically speaking how many dogs born to titled parents are born with bad temperament? (aggressive or fear issues)


I do not know. Frankly, we send a pup home at eight weeks, and have no clue what insanity people are subjecting them to. We do our best to make good placements, but sometimes they do not turn out as such. 

I have a young bitch back from someone who let a trainer put it in with her three adult dogs for three days, let her son tease the dog trying to get it to go for him until he was afraid of her, and tethered it above a window above the bed in the daughter's room, where it was then allowed on and off the bed, got tangled and seriously injured her elbow. Within two months I got her back. I am thinking dog-aggressive, Kid-aggressive, seriously injured dog. I let her heal, and now she is in classes. But the first month or more she wanted much more to do with the dogs than me. I kept going, not pushing, not ignoring, and she is just like my others. But it wasn't overnight. She has not been socialized as well as Joy or Bear. But that is just how it is, and we will continue to work at that. 

Rush and Babs both have good temperaments, and titles. I have two pups out of them. Milla and Ninja. Both are crazy. Milla is ok, her temperament is good. Ninja is not. It was like right after her rabies vaccine, she went from happy outgoing, to fearful. Could have been a fear stage. But, she is very aggressive toward strangers when kenneled. She is not good with my other dogs. And she spins some -- not bad, but something I do not want to see. I have no fear that she would ever bite me, but she does not have the temperament that I want to pass on. Yes, she and Milla are both titled, at just a year of age. Ninja NQ'd and took first place on the same day! 

Ninja would be ok as a pet. I think. The rest of the litter is doing just fine, and her sister that I have is just fine. Ninja does fine in public, and does fine at home, would be better as an only dog, but she is trainable, no problem at the vets or groomers -- other people handling her. But my house is different that a busy family, and I am not pushing her beyond any thresholds. She knows what is expected of her, and everything is very constant/normal. I will not sell her or rehome her because I do not know how she would do in a more chaotic situation. 

I did not repeat that breeding, I rehomed the sire (titled in Rally, and has a TDI -- good temperament). I have heard of vaccinations causing problems with dogs. But I do not want to risk another litter. And I certainly will never breed her. For one thing, I have no idea how she will act when I start letting people come in to see a litter out of her. Will she lose her mind completey and go for one of them, or their kids. You want to start out with a dog that is confident, not with a dog that has confidence issues, and you still might end up with crazy behavior around the puppies, and that behavior, the behavior of the dam imprints the puppies behavior. No, she cannot be bred, even though she is titled and has a CGC. 

You can get a title on a less than perfect dog, but you ought to know it is less then wonderful. You have to get from here to there. And in that time, you should be able to come up with a good idea of the temperament of the dog.


----------



## paulag1955

onyx'girl said:


> Well, who would you rather support? A breeder that works their dogs and puts titles(not sent out for titling) on them or one that just breeds for the sake of breeding and you have no idea the ability that the dogs may have?


But isn't this is a false dichotomy? Surely there's a middle ground somewhere of breeders who neither work their dogs nor nor just breed them willy-nilly just for the sake of breeding (and presumably making a buck).


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## brembo

paulag1955 said:


> But isn't this is a false dichotomy? Surely there's a middle ground somewhere of breeders who neither work their dogs nor nor just breed them willy-nilly just for the sake of breeding (*and presumably making a buck)*.


My emphasis.

If you are looking for a pup and get a whiff of greed, RUN, don't walk, away. It's that mentality that has shelters and breed rescues packed with animals. Breeders that give a flip about their animals stick monetary compensation much lower on the priority list than BYBers do.


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## Samba

There are many reasons people breed. The main thing is what do they know? A person could have to nice titled dogs. Put them together and ome up with a mess because they don 't the lines or what genetics they are combining.

I have found the most knowledgable breeeders among those who routinely test their dogs for courage and hardness. Those breeders who understand how to evaluate a dog under stress...invaluable. Some are very ggod students of the breed, doing things that test for true German Shepherd characteristics. Then add to that knowledge of the lines behind the dogs. Add to that some real life experience combining those dogs with some success. Now, we might be getting to German Shepherd breeding.


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## paulag1955

brembo said:


> My emphasis.
> 
> If you are looking for a pup and get a whiff of greed, RUN, don't walk, away. It's that mentality that has shelters and breed rescues packed with animals. Breeders that give a flip about their animals stick monetary compensation much lower on the priority list than BYBers do.


Oh, I agree with that.


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## Mrs.K

brembo said:


> My emphasis.
> 
> If you are looking for a pup and get a whiff of greed, RUN, don't walk, away. It's that mentality that has shelters and breed rescues packed with animals. Breeders that give a flip about their animals stick monetary compensation much lower on the priority list than BYBers do.



Honestly, I am so sick and tired about people saying that. 

A real breeder has a heck of a lot of expenses and if he doesn't want to run himself into bankruptcy a breeder HAS to take the costs and money part into consideration. You can't breed off of idealism only, you have got to break at least even or have a darn good job that covers all the costs that are involved. 

Some people here know jack about the costs involved and how much it truly costs and what is truly involved. 

So stop suggesting things. A breeder HAS GOT to charge something for the dogs. Especially those competing and titling the dogs.


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## paulag1955

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I am so sick and tired about people saying that.
> 
> A real breeder has a heck of a lot of expenses and if he doesn't want to run himself into bankruptcy a breeder HAS to take the costs and money part into consideration. You can't breed off of idealism only, you have got to break at least even or have a darn good job that covers all the costs that are involved.
> 
> Some people here know jack about the costs involved and how much it truly costs and what is truly involved.
> 
> So stop suggesting things. A breeder HAS GOT to charge something for the dogs. Especially those competing and titling the dogs.


No one's saying breeders aren't entitled to be compensated for what they do...only that you should avoid breeders who are breeding only for the money. Don't you agree with that? Making a reasonable profit doesn't equal greedy.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I have read many books and watched videos on how to do a temperament test on a puppy. There are many different ways of determining how a puppy responds to various situations, including being held in a certain positions, etc that claim that you can judge a puppy's temperament by administering these tests. Are these tests not helpful then in determining a puppy's temperament? And if so, why?*Please only someone with experience in temperament testing answer this question as an accurate answer to this is important to me.*


A temperament test is a snapshot of a puppy in one moment of one day of its life. Temperament testing has to be done away from the pup's home territory, by a stranger, who knows how to test puppies. Done correctly, it can give an overall impression of temperament, but it is not a crystal ball. I have had a couple of pups that turned out differently than their puppy tests indicated.


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## Freestep

Mrs.K said:


> A breeder HAS GOT to charge something for the dogs. Especially those competing and titling the dogs.


Who said a reputable breeder should be giving away puppies? It is massively expensive to raise, train, show, and title dogs and the breeder certainly deserves to be compensated for their efforts. 

What I have a problem with is people who breed poor quality dogs; untrained, untested, no OFA or any health testing done, no regard for temperament, no knowledge of bloodlines, breeding for no reason other than to sell puppies. They aren't putting any time, effort, or money into their dogs, yet they think they should be able to sell puppies for as much as a reputable breeder would? No thanks.


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## Smithie86

Mrs.K said:


> However, a breeder will most likely never tell you the flaws of their dogs. Good breeders wont lie to you but they will not tell you everything either. So you have to ask around and talk to people.


The majority of the time, this is not true. A lot of us on this board will talk pedigrees, what is truly being produced, what we like and do not like in our own dogs. We might (and have) recommend dogs to each other that might be a better fit than what we have or better timing, distance, etc.

Same with breeders, trainers and competitors that we have personally know for years. Focus is on producing correctly for what you are looking for - breeding is a balance of what you want to keep/intensify and correct. It is never perfect to perfect...

Yes, you will always have the few that have blinders on and talk in prodigious terms of all their dogs, gloss over/neglect to say anything about faults, issues, etc. They eventually fade away.....


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## neiltus

I, for one, would not buy a dog that's parents were not titled. Why? Because for every non-titled dog out there with good health, temperament, intelligence that fit the breed standard there are dozens of train-wrecks.


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## brembo

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I am so sick and tired about people saying that.
> 
> A real breeder has a heck of a lot of expenses and if he doesn't want to run himself into bankruptcy a breeder HAS to take the costs and money part into consideration. You can't breed off of idealism only, you have got to break at least even or have a darn good job that covers all the costs that are involved.
> 
> Some people here know jack about the costs involved and how much it truly costs and what is truly involved.
> 
> So stop suggesting things. A breeder HAS GOT to charge something for the dogs. Especially those competing and titling the dogs.


I didn't say that compensation was evil. I said *greed*. Of course it costs lots to properly raise a batch of dogs. It's hard to parse in writing, but you can tell when a breeder is looking to turn a buck or turn out quality animals. I do not begrudge a breeder making some profit as it will only allow them to do better by the other animals, in fact I'm the type to settle on a price and then tip if the seller really impresses me. I DO get riled up when I feel that I'm simply seen as a walking entry into the ledger. 

It's incredibly tough to make a living selling dogs. Puppy mills do okay, but they make their profit by being 100% morally bankrupt. The funds invested in a quality pup plus the time needed to properly socialize the critters puts the price-point at levels that most folks will not abide and that is a huge crying shame. I like rescues, it's essentially free and since my dogs are companion animals it suits me fine. I have made myself a promise however, that at some point I am going to get a top-flight working line GSD. Price will be something to consider, but in no way will it sway me from choosing one dog over another.


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## Emoore

brembo said:


> My emphasis.
> 
> If you are looking for a pup and get a whiff of greed, RUN, don't walk, away. It's that mentality that has shelters and breed rescues packed with animals. Breeders that give a flip about their animals stick monetary compensation much lower on the priority list than BYBers do.


Personally I'd rather buy from a greedy breeder than an ignorant one. If someone is breeding quality dogs and taking proper care of them, I'd rather pay them $2000 than pay $200 to somebody who thought Lady should have "just one litter" or "the kids should witness the miracle of birth" or "She's so pretty, we just knew she'd have nice pups." 

Greed is actually fairly low on the priority list for a lot of byb'ers. They bred because they had a waiting list of friends and family who wanted pups from Lady and those homes have evaporated, necessitating an ad in the paper. Or they had to have one of Max's puppies and are "just trying to find a good home" for the other 10. Somebody told them that charging a few hundred buck would guarantee a good home, but now the little darlings are 12 weeks old and they're crapping everywhere and we're having to feed them and they're due for their second shots and we'll let you have one for a hundred. . . .


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> To the OP-
> What is a good temperament to you?


A dog that is not aggressive to humans-especially children, nor to other animals, and is not given to fears.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Selzer- that temperament test that you mentioned the one that the Monks of New Skete show-well that test got me attacked by my GS when he was a puppy (about 4 months old). You know how they say to grab the dog under the chin, well he went completely psycho on me-his face literally looked like a demon and he bit the heck out of me for that. He was a complete red zone case and needed lots and lots of help to overcome his aggression issues. He has come a long way and is a good boy now and is good with my kids as well. But, when I bought him I had not idea about how to choose a dog. Thats why I started this thread because I want to know why buying a dog from titled parents is so important and if it would genuinely make a difference.

I have another question, when I got my GS-the breeder had his mom in a kennel next to where she was showing the puppies. When I picked up Brutus the mother jumped at the cage and was very upset. Is this normal for the mother to react that way, or was this a bad sign as well?


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A dog that is not aggressive to humans-especially children, nor to other animals, and is not given to fears.


This is what any pet home wants from any breed of dog. That is not proving a GSD has good temperament. A GSD should have temperament true to its breed standard...that includes aggression.


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## paulag1955

sagelfn said:


> This is what any pet home wants from any breed of dog. That is not proving a GSD has good temperament. A GSD should have temperament true to its breed standard...that includes aggression.


Maybe she means "inappropriate aggression."


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## sagelfn

paulag1955 said:


> Maybe she means "inappropriate aggression."


Probably right but my point is that what she and most people consider good temperament is basic for all breeds. A GSD is not like other breeds and when you take away everything that makes a GSD what it is then all you have is a Golden Retriever in a GSD body.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> This is what any pet home wants from any breed of dog. That is not proving a GSD has good temperament. A GSD should have temperament true to its breed standard...that includes aggression.


You asked me what I consider good temperament...then you're basically like-wrong answer! You are a classic example of an ambush listener.

I did mean inappropriate aggression, thank you Paula for being able to interpret my message correctly. Let me clarify my definition so that every one can clearly understand what I meant. I don't think it is considered breed standard for a GS to attack his owners, children, kill other animals, or want to fight every dog he see's.


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## paulag1955

sagelfn said:


> Probably right but my point is that what she and most people consider good temperament is basic for all breeds. A GSD is not like other breeds and when you take away everything that makes a GSD what it is then all you have is a Golden Retriever in a GSD body.


I know that no one here wants to hear this, but my gut tells me that most people don't know what would set a GSD apart from a Golden before they acquire one. They just want a dog that fulfills those basics.


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## sagelfn

> Sound nerves, alertness, self confidence, trainability, watchfulness, loyalty and incorruptibility, as well as courage, fighting drive and hardness, are the outstanding characteristics of a purebred German Shepherd Dog. They make his suitable to be a superior working dog in general, and in particular to be a guard, companion, protection and herding dog.


Without working a dog how do you prove this? How many people come on this forum and post about their protective dog when it is clear that the dog was acting out of fear. Those (most not all  ) are the type of people breeding without titles. They can't tell the difference either.


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> I know that no one here wants to hear this, but my gut tells me that most people don't know what would set a GSD apart from a Golden before they acquire one. They just want a dog that fulfills those basics.


That's fine and there's nothing wrong with it, but nobody should be breeding dogs to fulfill the lowest common denominator-- the non-demanding pet home that just wants a Golden with pricked ears. 

When the best thing you have to aim for is dogs that don't attack the kids and aren't terrified of thunder, you're always going to get some that miss the mark and make lousy pets. When the best thing you have to aim for is solid working dogs that can do protection, tracking, and obedience; you're always going to get some that miss the mark but make great pets that don't attack the kids and aren't terrified of thunder.


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## Dainerra

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You asked me what I consider good temperament...then you're basically like-wrong answer! You are a classic example of an ambush listener.
> 
> I did mean inappropriate aggression, thank you Paula for being able to interpret my message correctly. Let me clarify my definition so that every one can clearly understand what I meant. I don't think it is considered breed standard for a GS to attack his owners, children, kill other animals, or want to fight every dog he see's.


I don't believe that she was trying to ambush you. There are a lot of people who believe that ALL aggression is inappropriate. There are people out there breeding GSDs with golden retriever temperaments. That is part of the point, though, of why it is important to buy from titled parents. Just like health testing, it stacks the odds in your favor.


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## sagelfn

Dainerra said:


> I don't believe that she was trying to ambush you. There are a lot of people who believe that ALL aggression is inappropriate. There are people out there breeding GSDs with golden retriever temperaments. That is part of the point, though, of why it is important to buy from titled parents. Just like health testing, it stacks the odds in your favor.


Thank you. The Op said as long as the dog has good temperament why not breed it. That was my point what you consider good temperament (and not just you, many many many people) is not what GSD breeders should be breeding soley for.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> That's fine and there's nothing wrong with it, but nobody should be breeding dogs to fulfill the lowest common denominator-- the non-demanding pet home that just wants a Golden with pricked ears.
> 
> When the best thing you have to aim for is dogs that don't attack the kids and aren't terrified of thunder, you're always going to get some that miss the mark and make lousy pets. When the best thing you have to aim for is solid working dogs that can do protection, tracking, and obedience; you're always going to get some that miss the mark but make great pets that don't attack the kids and aren't terrified of thunder.


I agree; I wasn't saying that was a goal. 

But just because a dog isn't titled doesn't necessarily mean it's not a good or even outstanding representation of the breed. I think there's room in the marketplace for both types of breeders. I'm not saying I think ignorant people should be breeding dogs but not titling your dogs doesn't automatically make you ignorant.


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> . I'm not saying I think ignorant people should be breeding dogs but not titling your dogs doesn't automatically make you ignorant.


No, but for every one wise, knowledgeable breeder evaluating their own dogs and not titling them for one reason or another, there are literally _thousands_ of ignorant people breeding non-titled dogs. I would argue that your odds of finding a good breeder that titles their dogs are far far greater than your odds finding a good breeder that doesn't title their dogs.


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## Germanshepherdlova

This thread that began with many good solid answers is beginning to go in the direction of way to many generalizations and assumptions of others people's knowledge and overall expectations of the GS. I don't care for this type of communication that only leads to an environment of misunderstandings. It is unfortunate though because there was some good information provided here that I was gaining knowledge from.


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## onyx'girl

Do titles tell you the threshold level of the dog?
Do they tell you the allergy/digestive sensitivity/possible immune disorder~ skin issues? No...

I still think just looking at a dogs titles are not the end all to picking a good breeder. You need to see what they've bred in the past and possibly talk with the owners who have dogs from that breeder to get the full picture. 
Titles are just one of the precursors to the whole product.
Do your research and don't rush into anything. 
If I see a breeder working their dogs, and breed without a title on the dam but have all the health tests in place, I still may be willing to purchase a pup from that litter if other things are done to ensure the breeding is worthy(pedigree info). 
Males should have titles as far as studding out(they should be exceptional), but females are on a different 'schedule' so titling may be harder to achieve in some cases.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> No, but for every one wise, knowledgeable breeder evaluating their own dogs and not titling them for one reason or another, there are literally _thousands_ of ignorant people breeding non-titled dogs. I would argue that your odds of finding a good breeder that titles their dogs are far far greater than your odds finding a good breeder that doesn't title their dogs.


Agreed. But the original questions wasn't about whether or not someone should buy from a breeder who doesn't title their dogs but "why should only titled German Shepherds be bred."


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## Dainerra

paulag1955 said:


> I agree; I wasn't saying that was a goal.
> 
> But just because a dog isn't titled doesn't necessarily mean it's not a good or even outstanding representation of the breed. I think there's room in the marketplace for both types of breeders. I'm not saying I think ignorant people should be breeding dogs but not titling your dogs doesn't automatically make you ignorant.


many people have said that "title" itself isn't the real goal. The true point is the WORK!! 
Some people work their dogs in sports that give titles: Schutzhund, agility, obedience, conformation, or herding. Others work their dogs in "real life" situations: herding on a ranch, protection or police work, farm dogs, etc. Both types of breeders have accomplished the same thing - testing their dogs to prove that they have the temperament and ability to do what a GSD is meant to do.

Then there is the 3rd type of breeder that does neither. They find a boy and a girl, throw them together at the right time and sell the puppies. I believe those breeders are most likely to have dogs with faulty temperaments. The breeder might not even know what a correct/standard GSD temperaments should be. They have a bitch that hasn't eaten the mailman and assume that means she has a good temperaments and the pups will make good pets. In reality, it could be a crap shoot. It's entirely possible that she has never left the yard, never been exposed to people that she doesn't know, and is in reality a complete and total nervebag.


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## Germanshepherdlova

When I got my GS-the breeder had his mom locked in a kennel next to where she was showing the puppies. When I picked up Brutus the mother jumped at the cage and was very upset.
Is this normal for the mother to react that way, or was this a bad sign as well?

Selzer or somebody who knows about breeding is it normal for a bitch to react this way when her puppy is taken?


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## Dainerra

I would say no. She should be used to having her pups handled. Sounds to me like they had to lock her up because people were there.


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## onyx'girl

Because she was kenneled, it may have been a frustration that caused the reaction. Did you see her out of the kennel ever? 
Any time I visited pups(after weaning) never have I seen a dam react to strangers handling her pups. But they've(dam) always been loose, not behind a fence/kennel. If the pups were very young, I could understand the protection of the dam. I doubt responsible breeders would allow strangers to handle their very young pups when they are vulnerable with the immune system not real strong yet.


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## Germanshepherdlova

onyx'girl said:


> Do titles tell you the threshold level of the dog?
> Do they tell you the allergy/digestive sensitivity/possible immune disorder~ skin issues? No...
> 
> I still think just looking at a dogs titles are not the end all to picking a good breeder. You need to see what they've bred in the past and possibly talk with the owners who have dogs from that breeder to get the full picture.
> Titles are just one of the precursors to the whole product.
> Do your research and don't rush into anything.
> If I see a breeder working their dogs, and breed without a title on the dam but have all the health tests in place, I still may be willing to purchase a pup from that litter if other things are done to ensure the breeding is worthy(pedigree info).
> Males should have titles as far as studding out(they should be exceptional), but females are on a different 'schedule' so titling may be harder to achieve in some cases.


So what you are saying is that the male needs to be titled but not necessarily the dam? This is an interesting prospective. Why do you say that it's not important for the dam to be titled?

I am still not convinced that the title is that important, but I am beginning to lean in that direction.


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## Germanshepherdlova

No, I didn't see her out of the kennel and I think they may have locked her up because we were there. At the time I was very ignorant and didn't think anything of it, I even thought it was normal for the mother to want to attack if you took her puppy. I guess it wasn't so normal. The puppies were 7 weeks old at the time. 

I am trying to learn all I can so that next time I will know exactly what to look for. As I mentioned earlier my dog had aggression issue's. He is still aggressive, but not toward our family. It took a great deal of exhausting training though to get him to the point where he is now at.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am still not convinced that the title is that important, but I am beginning to lean in that direction.


Do you at least think the dogs should be worked?


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## paulag1955

Dainerra said:


> many people have said that "title" itself isn't the real goal. The true point is the WORK!!
> Some people work their dogs in sports that give titles: Schutzhund, agility, obedience, conformation, or herding. Others work their dogs in "real life" situations: herding on a ranch, protection or police work, farm dogs, etc. Both types of breeders have accomplished the same thing - testing their dogs to prove that they have the temperament and ability to do what a GSD is meant to do.
> 
> Then there is the 3rd type of breeder that does neither. They find a boy and a girl, throw them together at the right time and sell the puppies. I believe those breeders are most likely to have dogs with faulty temperaments. The breeder might not even know what a correct/standard GSD temperaments should be. They have a bitch that hasn't eaten the mailman and assume that means she has a good temperaments and the pups will make good pets. In reality, it could be a crap shoot. It's entirely possible that she has never left the yard, never been exposed to people that she doesn't know, and is in reality a complete and total nervebag.


And there are no other types of breeders? A breeder who neither titles nor works their dogs is automatically ignorant? This is what you're saying. It is a logical fallacy to artificially restrict the possible types of breeders.

If your point is valid, you should be able to make it without a false dichotomy.


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## onyx'girl

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So what you are saying is that the male needs to be titled but not necessarily the dam? This is an interesting prospective. Why do you say that it's not important for the dam to be titled?


NOT so much not important but 
because females go thru heat cycles(possibly when they are due to trial) and cannot be in the venues to get titles, so harder than males to achieve them. 
AKC won't allow females in season to compete. 
You can in ScH but the brain of the dog may be compromised when she is in heat so she may not show herself to be the best she normally is. 

Then you want to breed her, and she has already gone thru several cycles, so you decide you'll do it during the winter downtime when trials aren't occurring. It sometimes comes down to the health of the female, her heat cycle and you having the stud lined up, etc....I don't think in this instance it is about greed, or lack of knowledge, BYB type situations, but just timing.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Do you at least think the dogs should be worked?


At least?


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

onyx'girl said:


> Because females go thru heat cycles(possibly when they are due to trial) and cannot be in the venues to get titles, so harder than males to achieve them.
> AKC won't allow females in season to compete.
> You can in ScH but the brain of the dog may be compromised when she is in heat so she may not show herself to be the best she normally is.
> 
> Then you want to breed her, and she has already gone thru several cycles, so you decide you'll do it during the winter downtime when trials aren't occurring. It sometimes comes down to the health of the female, her heat cycle and you having the stud lined up, etc....I don't think in this instance it is about greed, or lack of knowledge, BYB type situations, but just timing.


Thanks for explaining, it makes sense.


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## sagelfn

paulag1955 said:


> And there are no other types of breeders? A breeder who neither titles nor works their dogs is automatically ignorant?


A breeder who has never worked their dogs I say yes. You can't learn what threshold level of a dog has in a book. You have to see it in action.


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## Dainerra

paulag1955 said:


> And there are no other types of breeders? A breeder who neither titles nor works their dogs is automatically ignorant? This is what you're saying. It is a logical fallacy to artificially restrict the possible types of breeders.
> 
> If your point is valid, you should be able to make it without a false dichotomy.


I don't know what else to call them. Do they have x-ray vision that can see inside the dog or read the dog's mind? If they don't do SOMETHING with the dog, then how are they able to say "yes, this is a good dog"?

I've never met a knowledgeable breeder who didn't do some type of activity with the dog. Something other than "he is a good pet" Are there people who have enough experience to take a dog, spend a short amount of time with it, and make a judgement on that dog? I'm sure there are some, but they are few and far between. 

Then again, such a breeder would have a long history of working with dogs and have a thorough knowledge of what it takes to accomplish titles/work on a GSD. 

To me, it comes down to this. It's better to shoot for the stars and miss, then to aim for the gutter and hit it.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> At least?


Chill. I am not trying to attack you I am trying to learn where you are at in this discussion.

We have...
breeders that do nothing with their dogs
breeders that work their dogs
breeders that earn titles by doing work

So I said do you at least think breeders should work their dogs before breeding 

You said you weren't convinced titles were important yet but were leaning that way. That could mean you are still not against the first type of breeder. Just trying to figure out where you are at.


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## Germanshepherdlova

paulag1955 said:


> And there are no other types of breeders? A breeder who neither titles nor works their dogs is automatically ignorant? This is what you're saying. It is a logical fallacy to artificially restrict the possible types of breeders.
> 
> If your point is valid, you should be able to make it without a false dichotomy.


You have just clarified the whole purpose of my post. This is the mentality that I am trying to understand, and trying to decide if it is just bias or if there is a legitimate reasoning behind it. Not all GSD's are suitable to be titled but make great family pets. Why frown upon the families who are more than happy to add one of these wonderful dogs to their family? Why frown upon those who breed without title's? Who's to judge other breeders if they are breeding stable/healthy dogs? I am in no way referring to my dogs breeder, that is one that I'd never recommend nor return to again.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Chill. I am not trying to attack you I am trying to learn where you are at in this discussion.
> 
> We have...
> breeders that do nothing with their dogs
> breeders that work their dogs
> breeders that earn titles by doing work
> 
> So I said do you at least think breeders should work their dogs before breeding
> 
> You said you weren't convinced titles were important yet but were leaning that way. That could mean you are still not against the first type of breeder. Just trying to figure out where you are at.


I am not going to answer any questions that I perceive may lead to entrapment. At this time my stance is that I am opened minded to learn about all breeders and am not going to make a judgement at this time against any breeder except the one that I went to last time.

By the way, it is not appropriate to tell people to chill either. I do think that you have a great deal of knowledge when it comes to German Shepherds, but your way of presenting it is a bit offensive.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *Why frown upon the families who are more than happy to add one of these wonderful dogs to their family?*


Where was this said anywhere in this thread or on this board?

We are talking about breeding these dogs. If your dog is not breedworthy that is fine! It fits in with the majority of all GSDs


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You have just clarified the whole purpose of my post. This is the mentality that I am trying to understand, and trying to decide if it is just bias or if there is a legitimate reasoning behind it. Not all GSD's are suitable to be titled but make great family pets. .


It goes back to what I said before. Within every litter, there is going to be a bell curve of all traits-- nerve, drive, aggression, fear, anxiety, structure, etc. A few dogs will have very high drive, extremely strong nerve, zero fear, fabulous structure, etc. A few will be. . .um. . . at the other end of the spectrum. Most will be in the middle. 

If the highest target you're aiming at is the traits that make a good pet-- doesn't bite the kids or the mailman, isn't afraid of strangers, isn't terrified of fireworks, decent enough structure not to have major orthopedic problems at least at the age the dog is bred-- most of the offspring will meet this standard, a few will exceed it, and a few will fall short. What do you do with the ones that fall short? They've already been sold to pet homes at the age of 7 or 8 weeks by the time the owners realize they've bought a dog with weak nerves or bad structure.

On the other hand, if the target you're aiming at is a dog with the drive, nerves, and structure to go through the testing of earning a herding, obedience, agility, or Schutzhund title, you'll still get the same curve, but the ones who fall short of that high standard will still be able to be decent pets without suffering from the debilitating fear, aggression, or orthopedic problems that plague this breed.


Nobody is against people owning pets; we're against people breeding pets.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am not going to answer any questions that I perceive may lead to entrapment. At this time my stance is that I am opened minded to learn about all breeders and am not going to make a judgement at this time against any breeder except the one that I went to last time.
> 
> By the way, it is not appropriate to tell people to chill either. I do think that you have a great deal of knowledge when it comes to German Shepherds, but your way of presenting it is a bit offensive.


Again I'm not trying to attack you. I would like to know what your stance is so I don't waste any of my time explaining why something is important when you've already agreed or disagreed with that.

You questioning and complaining about how I say anything to you is offensive but I'm still trying to communicate.


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## Dainerra

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You have just clarified the whole purpose of my post. This is the mentality that I am trying to understand, and trying to decide if it is just bias or if there is a legitimate reasoning behind it. Not all GSD's are suitable to be titled but make great family pets. Why frown upon the families who are more than happy to add one of these wonderful dogs to their family? Why frown upon those who breed without title's? Who's to judge other breeders if they are breeding stable/healthy dogs? I am in no way referring to my dogs breeder, that is one that I'd never recommend nor return to again.


I'll try to answer your post. When a breeder breeds 2 titled/worked dogs, there are going to be a range of puppies. Some will have a cosmetic blemish that makes them unsuitable for show, some will not quite have the amount of drive to do Schutzhund or the desire to herd. Those dogs will make excellent pets. For the most part, those dogs are the "lowest" of the litter.
Now, say the new owner says "my dog is a great pet" and breeds that dog. Now instead of starting with a dog that is a 9, you are starting with a dog that is a 6. Again, the litter will have a range of temperaments. But, since you started with a "lower" level dog, the litter will be skewed lower. Instead of an average 8, most of the dogs will be a 6 or 7. The lowest dogs, say a 5.

Again, the future owner of the 5 dog says "He is a great pet. He is friendly with the kids and he barks at strangers. I want a puppy." Now you are starting with a 5. What do you think the range of the litter will be? It doesn't take very long with a pattern like this until you are getting dogs in every litter that WON'T be good pets. 

THAT is why I think that doing SOMETHING with the dogs is important. Why not strive for perfection in every litter? When you start with proven dogs, you are going to have a litter where all the pups have the ability to make excellent pets. When you start with an unknown quantity, then you will end up with an unknown.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore, so in your last paragraph are you saying that titled parents would produce this type of puppy, or that out of the litter a puppy like this could be chosen by the breeder?


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Emoore, so in your last paragraph are you saying that titled parents would produce this type of puppy, or that out of the litter a puppy like this could be chosen by the breeder?


I'm afraid I don't understand what you're asking. Can you rephrase? I'm sorry. :blush:


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Again I'm not trying to attack you. I would like to know what your stance is so I don't waste any of my time explaining why something is important when you've already agreed or disagreed with that.
> 
> You questioning and complaining about how I say anything to you is offensive but I'm still trying to communicate.


I am sorry if I am being difficult but it is sometimes difficult to understand the exact meaning at times when you can't read the other person's non verbal cue's such as on a forum like this. 

I don't have a stance yet. But I am trying to understand why it is so important for only titled dogs to breed. I am still processing all the information that I have been given. Does your dog have a title or does he work?


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## Dainerra

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Emoore, so in your last paragraph are you saying that titled parents would produce this type of puppy, or that out of the litter a puppy like this could be chosen by the breeder?


Not Emoore, but titled parents will produce a range of puppies - some suited for work, others not. But all of them can make excellent pets.

When you breed one of those "pet" dogs that don't have the working ability or temperament, then you are still going to get a range of puppies. A few will have the ability to work. Others will have the ability to make good pets. A few will not have temperament to even make good pets. 

Why take that chance? As I said in a previous post, it's better to shoot for the stars and miss than to shoot for the gutter and hit it.


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## paulag1955

Dainerra, you're assuming there are only two types of breeders...the BEST and the WORST. Obviously, there's a range. Not every breeder who doesn't title/work their dogs is going to be the WORST type of breeder you describe here.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> I'm afraid I don't understand what you're asking. Can you rephrase? I'm sorry. :blush:


 How who or how would it be determined that the puppy you described in the last paragraph that you wrote would meet the standards that you described? Would the breeder be sure of this? I am new to this titling business and don't understand how all this works.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Does your dog have a title or does he work?


No titles. We are working on a CGC and even that is hard. He is fearful/shy but improving. He will never be solid though.

We are starting in tracking and herding after this summer. He is neutered.


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## Dainerra

paulag1955 said:


> Dainerra, you're assuming there are only two types of breeders...the BEST and the WORST. Obviously, there's a range. Not every breeder who doesn't title/work their dogs is going to be the WORST type of breeder you describe here.


What would you consider a middle ground? 

If they take the dog to class, get a CGC, then they have worked and titled the dog. Is it a huge title? No, but it is something.

Again, in my opinion, someone who doesn't do SOMETHING with their dogs is not a breeder that I would want to support. I want to do everything possible to stack my odds to ensure that I get a dog that is not only a good pet, but everything that a GSD should be.


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## sagelfn

paulag1955 said:


> Dainerra, you're assuming there are only two types of breeders...the BEST and the WORST. Obviously, there's a range. Not every breeder who doesn't title/work their dogs is going to be the WORST type of breeder you describe here.


There are good breeders and there are bad breeders. There is no middle area, it is still not good.

A breeder might get lucky putting 2 dogs together but they cannot consistently do that


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> How who or how would it be determined that the puppy you described in the last paragraph that you wrote would meet the standards that you described? Would the breeder be sure of this? I am new to this titling business and don't understand how all this works.


Oh, yes; a good breeder can determine which pups are best for pet homes, which pets are for low-level sport or work (like local-level Schutzhund etc) and which (if any) are suitible for top-level competitors. Not from doing a one-time temperament test, but from living with the little buggers for 8 weeks straight, seeing which one is consistently first to the nipple, which one consistently dominates its siblings, etc.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> No titles. We are working on a CGC and even that is hard. He is fearful/shy but improving. He will never be solid though.
> 
> We are starting in tracking and herding after this summer. He is neutered.


So how can I learn how to start working my dog, or doing something to stimulate his mind? I know he'll never compete even though he is a registered pure bred but he doesn't have the temperament but I'd like to learn all I can about tracking and so on.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> Oh, yes; a good breeder can determine which pups are best for pet homes, which pets are for low-level sport or work (like local-level Schutzhund etc) and which (if any) are suitible for top-level competitors. Not from doing a one-time temperament test, but from living with the little buggers for 8 weeks straight, seeing which one is consistently first to the nipple, which one consistently dominates its siblings, etc.


So you're saying that a breeder can look at an 8 week old puppy and determine its temperament but it's not possible for a breeder to look at two mature dogs and determine their temperaments, even after possibly living with them for two or more years?


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Oh, yes; a good breeder can determine which pups are best for pet homes, which pets are for low-level sport or work (like local-level Schutzhund etc) and which (if any) are suitible for top-level competitors. Not from doing a one-time temperament test, but from living with the little buggers for 8 weeks straight, seeing which one is consistently first to the nipple, which one consistently dominates its siblings, etc.


LOL-my dog was first to the nipple and completely dominated his siblings. I still think they had a party when he left! I am going to try to learn all I can and do something with my boy.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So how can I learn how to start working my dog, or doing something to stimulate his mind? I know he'll never compete even though he is a registered pure bred but he doesn't have the temperament but I'd like to learn all I can about tracking and so on.


Find a club or school. The place we go to offers classes in family obedience, competitive obedience, agility, rally, therapy, and service.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Find a club or school. The place we go to offers classes in family obedience, competitive obedience, agility, rally, therapy, and service.


About how much do they charge for these classes? And will there be loud noises there as part of the training? (thunder loud)


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> So you're saying that a breeder can look at an 8 week old puppy and determine its temperament but it's not possible for a breeder to look at two mature dogs and determine their temperaments, even after possibly living with them for two or more years?


Part of the reason he can determine the pup's temperament is looking at it _within the context_ of what he knows about its parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, probably back to Horand. 

A person who doesn't work or title their dog _can't_ accurately evaluate them the way a person who does can, even after living in the house with them. If all you do with your dog is live with it and take it to PetSmart occasionally, you _don't_ know your dog as well as someone who has trained their dog to a high level. That I can say with comfort and conviction.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> About how much do they charge for these classes? And will there be loud noises there as part of the training? (thunder loud)


My school charges $120 for 6 weeks of classes. They do have loud noises in some of the higher level classes, but not in basic or intermediate family obedience.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So how can I learn how to start working my dog, or doing something to stimulate his mind? I know he'll never compete even though he is a registered pure bred but he doesn't have the temperament but I'd like to learn all I can about tracking and so on.


The training facility I go to is having a tracking seminar with an AKC judge. I will be attending that. I have also just ordered 2 books by Gary Patterson "training the behavior" and "tracking from the beginning" that will help me learn the basics and probably more. After the seminar we are going to try to do weekly tracks as a group and help each other. Depending on how that goes I will keep an eye out for tracking events.

For herding I had searched all around and finally found someone giving lessons. They are very active in AKC and another organization can't remember the name. If Sage is good at it we will stick with it and maybe put some titles on him, if not we will have fun and learn in the process.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> Part of the reason he can determine the pup's temperament is looking at it _within the context_ of what he knows about its parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, probably back to Horand.
> 
> A breeder who breeds working dogs is going to get some pups who make lousy working dogs but great pets. A breeder who breeds pets is going to get some pups who make lousy pets but great. . . . nothing. Shelter fodder maybe. How is this so hard to understand?


Go back and read what I wrote to Dainerra. You're assuming that a breeder who doesn't meet your standards is the WORST possible breeder. But in reality, there is a continuum, whether or not you acknowledge it. You're assuming that every breeder who doesn't title his/her dogs won't have that context.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I'd prefer that there not be an very loud noises as he wouldn't want to train there anymore. I am going to order some books and start reading up on this and see what I can do with him.


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## Emoore

I apologize the "how is this hard to understand" comment. As you can see I deleted it. I realized it was inflammatory and I'd like to keep this friendly.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> I apologize the "how is this hard to understand" comment. As you can see I deleted it. I realized it was inflammatory and I'd like to keep this friendly.


Apology accepted. And I deleted mine, too. Sorry. :blush:


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> Go back and read what I wrote to Dainerra. You're assuming that a breeder who doesn't meet your standards is the WORST possible breeder.


No, I'm not assuming that. What I know for a fact, from 10 years of fostering, is that there are entirely too many German Shepherds in the United States. If GSDs were a rare breed, there might be room for "average" or "less than stellar." But it's not. It's raining German Shepherds at the shelter, many of which are less than six months old. Within that context, anyone who isn't breeding for excellence doesn't need to be breeding. We're not trying to keep GSDs from the brink of extinction. What the world doesn't need is more mediocre, AKC registered Shepherds.

And I'd like to point out I'm referring to titles OR work. Titles are a proxy for work. Kopper's parents don't have titles, but I was able to watch them work-- obedience, tracking, and protection-- at different locations and with different helpers. If a puppy buyer is able to do that and confident in their ability to evaluate what they're seeing, more power to them. Even so, I can guarantee he won't be bred.


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## Germanshepherdlova

paulag1955 said:


> Go back and read what I wrote to Dainerra. You're assuming that a breeder who doesn't meet your standards is the WORST possible breeder. But in reality, there is a continuum, whether or not you acknowledge it. You're assuming that every breeder who doesn't title his/her dogs won't have that context.


That is what I have been exploring. The middle ground that I know must exist. There certainly must be responsible breeders who have bred dogs with good qualities, but are not titled. Titling can't be everything. It is not a guarantee. Many say that it is more likely you will get a good dog if the parents are titled but I believe that there are breeders who have bred many litters of dogs that have turned out to be great dogs and their parents are not titled. I don't believe this is a coincidence either but a conscience effort on behalf of the breeder.


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## Dainerra

paulag1955 said:


> Go back and read what I wrote to Dainerra. You're assuming that a breeder who doesn't meet your standards is the WORST possible breeder. But in reality, there is a continuum, whether or not you acknowledge it. You're assuming that every breeder who doesn't title his/her dogs won't have that context.


Again, if he doesn't title or work his dogs, how does he have that context?

Also, if the dog is "just a pet" there is no push to test the temperament. With a puppy, everything is new. Almost every minute of every day is going to be learning something new, seeing something new, hearing new sounds. A good breeder also introduces the pups to new things to see how they react - loud noises, strange sights, etc.

Even if you are the best/most knowledgeable of breeders, how do you say "yes, this dog has a good temperament" if the dog doesn't leave the house? If the dog's only interaction is with people/things/places he knows?

I will use my Freya as an example. She wasn't socialized before we got her and her temperament wasn't strong enough for her to recover. Now, if she met you and developed a trust in you and you were at our house and you asked her to do things that she knew how to do (sit/down/come) then you would say "oh she is a good pet" What you wouldn't see is that any change in her comfort zone (even so small as the trash can being in a different spot) would send her into a panic.


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## Dainerra

Germanshepherdlova said:


> That is what I have been exploring. The middle ground that I know must exist. There certainly must be responsible breeders who have bred dogs with good qualities, but are not titled. Titling can't be everything. It is not a guarantee. Many say that it is more likely you will get a good dog if the parents are titled but I believe that there are breeders who have bred many litters of dogs that have turned out to be great dogs and their parents are not titled. I don't believe this is a coincidence either but a conscience effort on behalf of the breeder.



No one is saying "title is everything" I've said in several posts that the title by itself is just a piece of paper. The JOURNEY is what tells you about the breeder about the dog. As a buyer, what the title tells me is that the breeder put effort into the dog, that an outside person looked at the dog, and said "On this day, the dog performed these tasks" What the breeder has learned is what the dog can handle. Is the dog easy to train? Does the dog have the intelligence and drive/work ethic I want to pass on to future generations? Does the dog have the correct structure to work as a GSD should? ETA: And that is the questions I the buyer would be asking the breeder. What did you learn about this dog? 

There are also those who don't title their dogs because they're dogs are busy doing a job. The dog is out in the real world herding sheep, chasing down criminals, or sniffing out bombs. Again, it's the DOING that tells the breeder what the dog is made of.


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## paulag1955

Dainerra and Emoore, obviously we're never going to agree on this issue so I'm just going to drop it. Have a great rest of the evening!


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> That is what I have been exploring. The middle ground that I know must exist. There certainly must be responsible breeders who have bred dogs with good qualities, but are not titled. Titling can't be everything. It is not a guarantee. Many say that it is more likely you will get a good dog if the parents are titled but I believe that there are breeders who have bred many litters of dogs that have turned out to be great dogs and their parents are not titled. I don't believe this is a coincidence either but a conscience effort on behalf of the breeder.


Name some. I'm not being an agitator, I'm honestly curious. And how do they make the conscience effort to produce strong nerve and good temperament without working their dogs?




paulag1955 said:


> Dainerra and Emoore, obviously we're never going to agree on this issue so I'm just going to drop it. Have a great rest of the evening!


You too! Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion.


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## Dainerra

paulag1955 said:


> Dainerra and Emoore, obviously we're never going to agree on this issue so I'm just going to drop it. Have a great rest of the evening!


I do wish you would answer my previous question before you go. What would you consider a "middle ground" between work/title and doing nothing?


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## carmspack

Many of the dogs being bred in the US with titles were not titled by the breeder owners , but in Germany and then imported with title. This does not give the breeder much insight into what it took to achieve the title , or whether the title "holds water".
This thread made me think.
Many times , at the clubs or directly to me, I hear "I got me a sch h 3 " , oh? really , very interesting , what lines is he , where is he from, and they can not answer because they are so focused on the achievement , rather than on the genetics.
When I look at a pedigree I don't even notice the titles . The only one that stands out is the FH , FH 2 , FH 3 , indicating a dog with tracking ability noteworthy enough to have the owner test him further and further . 
I look at the names of the dogs and what they represent . It is more important to me to look and see that the pedigree has logic in breeding partner choice from generation to generation. It shows me what they were putting together , whether too much of one element , or an abrupt complete change of direction .

I was once told that I could not breed to a dog until he had his titles . And I could not breed to the dog until I had titled my dog. 

The irony is that the male was my breeding , as was the female , and I could tell this person a thousand things more about the dogs going back for generations, and what they would get generations ahead in the future.

The person belonged to a schutzhund club with several of my dogs in training , and later being titled , even going to Nationals. 

true

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore

Dainerra said:


> I do wish you would answer my previous question before you go. What would you consider a "middle ground" between work/title and doing nothing?


I'd be interested to hear this as well. If you're not doing obedience, agility, protection, SAR, tracking, herding, dock diving, lure coursing, article detection, or police/military work. . . what *are* you doing to evaluate your breeding dogs?


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## paulag1955

Dainerra said:


> I do wish you would answer my previous question before you go. What would you consider a "middle ground" between work/title and doing nothing?


Sorry...paying work calls. I've spent WAY too much time on this already.


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## Emoore

carmspack said:


> The irony is that the male was my breeding , as was the female , and I could tell this person a thousand things more about the dogs going back for generations, and what they would get generations ahead in the future.


But Carmen, the reason you know these things is because you *work* dogs. We're back to titles being a proxy for work. I'm not saying a dog without titles shouldn't be bred, I'm saying a dog who isn't *worked* shouldn't be bred.


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## Lucy Dog

My take is that there is a certain temperament that the standard calls for. If there's no standard... what are breeders breeding for? I don't think friendly and no inappropriate aggression is nearly enough to strive for with regards to any kind of puppy from a pet to a working home pup. 

Titles at least show some kind of proof that a dog can handle the pressure of performing in hostile environments in at least something that resembles the point of this breed - herding, protection, ScH, whatever. At least it's something.

Everyone thinks their dogs have awesome temperaments. Yeah... well prove it! Show me what that dog can do. Prove this breeding dog is worthy of passing down the temperament that the standard calls for.

The term "watered down" has been discussed here so many times. The breed is watered down because there are so many people breeding their dogs without any regard to the correct temperament of the breed. Lazy, overly friendly, shy, nervous, fearful, no drive are all words/terms that come up all the time because this breed is so watered down by breeding dogs that should have never been bred.

Titling (in appropriate venues), as mentioned earlier, is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to if a dog should be bred, but it's a very good start. It at least shows me something. In the puppy buying business, if a breeder doesn't have a reputation to back it up, they darn well better have something to prove with regards to their breeding stock and temperament.


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## carmspack

Emoore , yes thanks, but I am also a student of the breed. I make it a point to know about the dogs.
I think pedigree study is important. 

We have seen on this forum many facilities with a number of dogs merrily being bred away to each other, even with decent adherence to "responsible breeder" requirements of age , hips , hygiene, yes even titles etc etc -- and yet the dogs come out horribly wrong. The combinations do not belong together .

You see people buying titles, the "kids" of top winners . All it takes is an imported dog - adult age.

You see it with Czech dogs which have become a hot item. You ask the owners to tell you something about the dogs and they can not . Even I have a harder time with Czech genetics . I like to really dig deep into a pedigree and the language barrier is a block. There is not a great deal of sharing information and yet look at all the imported Czech dogs being bred in North America, and the breeding pairs have titles.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NarysDad

carmspack said:


> Many times , at the clubs or directly to me, I hear "I got me a sch h 3 " , oh? really , very interesting , what lines is he , where is he from, and they can not answer because they are so focused on the achievement , rather than on the genetics.


I see this so much today and when I try to explain that genetics take more precedence than title do many just don't understand. It makes me feel like I'm speaking a foreign language


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## Lucy Dog

I think there's a big difference between the necessity of breeding titled dogs with someone who's been breeding for years and has a solid reputation of what they're producing against someone that no one knows and that has to place ads in craigslist to sell their puppies.

Personally, I'd much rather go with a breeder I can trust breeding a non-titled dog vs someone placing an ad on craigslist about their puppies from ScH titled parents.

As Carmen and Chuck mentioned... a lot of this goes back to being able to understand pedigrees of the dogs being bred, breeding the correct sire to dam for a breeding goal, and placing the puppies in the correct homes.


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## sparra

So when you talk about "titles" is that what they get at that huge dog show.....I can't think of what it is called but it is supposed to be the biggest thing in showing dogs......I think it starts with "C" and was there a comedy movie about it or something? Sorry if this is a dumb question but is that a "title" if they win there? Gosh I wish I could think of the name....is it "Cruffs" or something like that?


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## Dainerra

I was thinking of what Paula said about a continuum. I do agree in a way; I just think that we are talking about it differently.

To me, it isn't work/don't work/something in between. The difference is the amount of work vs the people who don't work. On one hand, you get people who go all the way in their chosen venue - Sch3, BOB at Crufts, whatever. On the opposite extreme is someone who goes through a few obedience classes. THEN you are left with the people who do nothing.

So, to me, the "do-nothings" aren't even an option. Now, what level of work do I support? To me, that is where the breeder equation comes in. What do I know about the breeder, their dogs, and the journey to get there. We'll take 2 extremes just for an example. 
On one side, you have a breeding of 2 Sch3 dogs. On the other, dog has some mid-level titles, nothing to write home about, bitch has a CGC. Breeder 1 is a new breeder. Dogs in the pedigree are a mix of title levels. The breeder can't tell me much about the dogs in the pedigree, other than "yeah, they have titles" Breeders goal is to breed more dogs able to compete in Sch.
Breeder 2 has been around the block. Titled numerous dogs, knows the pedigree forwards and back. They can tell me "this dog 3 generations back did A, B, C The dog had some faults, example A and B, but has these strengths" They can tell you this info for at least the majority of the pedigree. Their goal is detailed and precise. 

To me, those 2 breeders are pretty equal, even though the 1st breeding has more "titles" on the dogs.


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## Dainerra

Ooops. past my time limit to edit so....

ETA: as I said in another post, the title by itself is just a piece of paper. It must be combined with a good breeder and good genetics to have any value. For example, if the dog in question is the only one of his family with the nerve to GET a title, the genetics tell you what to expect.
As a puppy buyer, you have to take all the aspects into account: titles/work, the breeder, the pedigree, etc


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## sparra

"On one hand, you get people who go all the way in their chosen venue - Sch3, BOB at* Crufts*, whatever."

Yes...CRUFTS...that's it...thanks for "indirectly" answering my question and I will just assume that this is a "title".
For what its worth I would think a "title" at "CRUFTS" would be as about as useless as **** on a bull.


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## doggiedad

i think you're thinking of Crufts. an international
show held in England. you might be thinking of the
movie Best In Show. i don't know if the movie
is based on Crufts or just the show world
in general. the movie is very, very funny.



sparra said:


> So when you talk about "titles" is that what they get at that huge dog show.....I can't think of what it is called but it is supposed to be the biggest thing in showing dogs......I think it starts with "C" and was there a comedy movie about it or something? Sorry if this is a dumb question but is that a "title" if they win there? Gosh I wish I could think of the name....is it "Cruffs" or something like that?


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## onyx'girl

NarysDad said:


> I see this so much today and when I try to explain that genetics take more precedence than title do many just don't understand. It makes me feel like I'm speaking a foreign language


Chuck, do you work your dogs? And if so, in what venues?


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## doggiedad

i didn't know you can earn a Schutzhund
title at Crufts??? i didn't see Schutzhund listed
when i checked to see what titles are earned at
Crufts.



sparra said:


> "On one hand, you get people who go all the way in their chosen venue - Sch3, BOB at* Crufts*, whatever."
> 
> Yes...CRUFTS...that's it...thanks for "indirectly" answering my question and I will just assume that this is a "title".
> For what its worth I would think a "title" at "CRUFTS" would be as about as useless as **** on a bull.


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## sparra

Well I guess that was my question......I know you do not get schutzhund titles at CRUFTS but if you win is this classed as some sort of title on the dog. There are more titles to be won than just schutzund are there not??


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## W.Oliver

paulag1955 said:


> Agreed. But the original questions wasn't about whether or not someone should buy from a breeder who doesn't title their dogs but "why should only titled German Shepherds be bred."


I think if the dog person really understands what a GSD should be, if they grasp the spirit of what a working GSD is........they wouldn't even ask the question.

The real issue at hand is convenience. The immediate gratification culture that wants to cut corners. Lets face it....there is a great deal of work involved in titling a GSD.

If a "customer" wants a companion dog, they can be found in litters from breeders who actively work their dogs....and with that purchase, overall the breed is sustained in the spirit in which it was created. If a person buys from a "companion" breeder, or even worse, a "BYB"...then with that purchase they contribute to the deterioration of the breed....IMO.

Key to note, and it has been established in this thread, a title is not an end-all/be-all answer to selecting a breeding GSD, but rather a threshold from which to measure. There are individuals...breeders who are more than capable of selecting qualities in a GSD that may not include a title...these folks are the very few. For the rest of us, a title is just the starting point for consideration regardless if we're discussing breeding or puppy selection. 


We could engage the same logic employed here with an entirely new thread.

"Why eat healthy when McDonald's is so inexpensive and readily available?"


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## wolfstraum

This is the most asked question about breeding - I agree....

Breeding dogs with nothing vs dogs with titles???? NO brainer...the titles are much better than NOTHING! But as many say, there are plenty of dogs with titles - not just schutzhund, that are NOT breedworthy! And there are trained dogs who never get titled due to the logistics of the sport and economy in this US....who are and should be bred....then there are 'breeders' whose kennel doors are 6 slot revolving doors with dogs going through rapidly...who import litters and bred dogs and many old dogs on their last litter just to sell pups and gawd knows where the old females end up!!! 

The question is - how does the puppy buyer who wants a sound stable dog tell the difference????? Titles certainly ARE an indication of a breeder who is in it for the long haul, but ofttimes, a good breeder can and will breed a female who they are training and have not yet titled...so look at the whole picture on these....someone who trains, titles, breeds and has produced titled dogs who breeds an untitled female is a totally different situation than someone breeding 2 pets to sell pets!!! 

Titles are supposed to show breedworthiness, and many titled dogs should NOT be bred, I totally agree!!! But titles are a starting point to indicate that there is an awareness of the breed standard and responsibility towards keeping the integrity of the breed.

Lee


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## crisp

When I select a Doctor, I look at much more than just the degree they received...but I won't even look at the doc that didn't finish med school. I know its an apples to oranges comparison, but I apply the same overall logic to both situations.


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## Dainerra

sparra said:


> Well I guess that was my question......I know you do not get schutzhund titles at CRUFTS but if you win is this classed as some sort of title on the dog. There are more titles to be won than just schutzund are there not??


it would be a conformation title. Does it "count"? I guess that depends on what the buyer is looking for. Do they want a dog to show? Do they prefer the look of the showlines? If so, then yes it counts. 

If they prefer the looks of a working line dog or want a schutzhund dog, then it counts for less. Not because it IS less, just not what they are looking for.


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## gagsd

_Germanshepherdlova;2217513--"_
_Why is it that every time a person comes on this forum and says that they want to breed their dog they are asked the same question.....What titles does your dog have? German Shepherds don't have to be titled to make great companions and pets. As long as the dog is healthy, has good hips, and a great temperament why is the title so important? Not every one is looking for a dog to send into competitions or shows. As a matter of fact the average GSD owner is just looking for an awesome new friend."_

When I first got involved in German Shepherds, I truly believed that all the dogs needed to have was AKC registration and hip certification.
I did not know enough to know there was more to it.

WORKING your dog... in protection, herding, tracking, agility and obedience teaches you so very much. And once you learn a little, you figure out that there is more to learn. So you move to the next step, and then find out there is another step. Eventually, you have enough knowledge to realize there is an entire stairway in front of you to climb.

You learn about nerve strength, levels of reactivity, appropriate and inappropraite aggression, drive (versus hyperactivity). Then you start learning the WHY and WHERE (did this come from). You look back and see that Dog A is a little sharp (quick to react to threats) and that he comes from a strong background of Thuringian dogs, so for a breeding decision it might not be a good idea to breed to another Thuringian dog (even if Dog B is itself, not "sharp.")

You learn that the first dog you ever trained, that was then considered "high drive" was really not. Because you have now trained, and trained with, many dogs who WERE high drive.

And if you are training that much, why not title??? It is fun.


----------



## sparra

Dainerra said:


> it would be a conformation title. Does it "count"? I guess that depends on what the buyer is looking for. Do they want a dog to show? Do they prefer the look of the showlines? If so, then yes it counts.
> 
> If they prefer the looks of a working line dog or want a schutzhund dog, then it counts for less. Not because it IS less, just not what they are looking for.


Thanks....that makes a lot of sense
For me personally even though my dog is "just a pet" that title at CRUFTS doesn't tell me a whole lot about temperament though does it.
So sometimes to the less experienced (like me) a "title" could be a bit misleading. You look at a dog and it has "titles" so you think "Oh must be a good example of the breed to have titles" but if they are just in the confirmation ring then doesn't tell you a whole lot about whats in the head does it.


----------



## Emoore

sparra said:


> Thanks....that makes a lot of sense
> For me personally even though my dog is "just a pet" that title at CRUFTS doesn't tell me a whole lot about temperament though does it.
> So sometimes to the less experienced (like me) a "title" could be a bit misleading. You look at a dog and it has "titles" so you think "Oh must be a good example of the breed to have titles" but if they are just in the confirmation ring then doesn't tell you a whole lot about whats in the head does it.


Normally, though, someone who is breeding for the conformation ring wouldn't say "My dog is titled." They would say "my dog is a champion." Or "my dog is ROM (Register of Merit)." You don't hear the word "title" thrown around as much in conformation circles; you'd hear something pertaining to championship. 

As a side note, if I or someone I knew were looking for a show line dog as a companion, I would want to look for a breeder who participated in something like obedience, agility, rally, or herding with their dogs as well as going to dog shows. There are plenty of show line breeders who do this.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

Emoore said:


> It's kinda like a college degree. If I'm a potential boss I don't care about your degree; I care what you learned while you were earning that degree. If I'm a potential puppy buyer I don't care that the parents have a title; I care what we learned about those parents while they were earning those titles.
> 
> As a potential puppy buyer it is *impossible* to judge the temperament and nerves of the parents in one visit to the breeder's house. How many times have we heard some variation of "I went to the breeder's house and the parents seemed nice. . ."?
> 
> No.
> 
> If you want to go with both of the puppy's parents to a ball game, to a parade, to Christmas morning when there's 87 grandkids running around and riding their new Power Wheels, to July 4 and New Year's Eve when the fireworks are going off-- fine, you can probably get a good evaluation of their temperament.
> 
> *Just like a college degree tells us that this 22-year old kid has passed the minimum standards for a certain institution*, a title tells us this dog has passed the minimum standards for passing that particular test. Just like you wouldn't hire every kid with a degree, you wouldn't buy a puppy from every dog with a title, but it's a good place to start.
> 
> 
> No dog *needs* to be bred. There are quite enough pet-quality GSDs in the world already, thank you. Show me what this dog has done to prove it deserves to be bred. "He's pretty and sweet and he doesn't bite the kids and he barks when someone knocks on the door" just doesn't cut it.


A college degree tells us that someone has the capacity to learn a variety of things and succeed. It shows an employer that they are trainable. Is it fool proof? No, nothing is; but it can give you a better idea. Now that being said, would I hire someone with a degree over someone without the degree but with the experience? Every time. With dogs I would think it would depend on the type of dog and what you're getting it for. If I was buying a hunting dog, I would want a dog that had hunted and proved to be a good hunter more than I would want a dog that was titled in obedience or conformation. If I wanted a Schutzhund dog, on the other hand, I would want a dog that came from parents that titled in Schutzhund because it would prove to me that I had a better chance of having the genetics there. If I was just getting a pet, I would still want some sort of titles on the parents because I would like to know that I am getting a pup from parents who have been handled extensively by others, had been put in noisy situations, had been trained to do something and had done fine at all of those things. Why? Because as a pet owner I will require a basic level of obedience from my dog. I will have them around other people, and I want to know that the dog I'm getting has a better chance at being fine. I didn't even really take that gamble when I adopted because I adopted and adult, and I specifically selected one that would fit my lifestyle. I would never have adopted a pup because it's too hard to tell, and since you have no idea of who their parents were it's really quite a gamble.


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## Vandal

It seems like these questions are asked repeatedly over years. First, as been said, titles are not everything...HOWEVER.......understanding what genetics are necessary to achieve one is and also why those genetics are important in a "family dog". The people wondering about no titles are clearly not educated about the breed but a rather significant number of SchH trainers are not either. First, you have to know what a GSD is supposed to be. I think mostly, this is where people have lost their way and that includes the people titling their dogs. They think SchH is telling them about their dogs. Well, maybe to a degree but certainly not like it used to....at all...and that, I find rather tragic. 

I have been involved with SchH for 35 years now. Most , have no concept of just how much the dogs, and the way SchH was conducted, has changed. Why? Because they didn't see those dogs or the training. They are only imagining based on what they hear or what people tell them. For sure the people wondering about titles don’t understand. Every now and then, I hear people saying " the dogs are better now than they used to be". It is interesting that the people saying that have done SchH for five years. I always wonder how they have come to determine that. I know of one person who says that who has been doing SchH for quite a while. However, if you had seen the dogs this person used to trial with, you would not be so fast to listen to that. For him, yes, maybe the dogs are better. You have other people who have done SchH for a while and are saying :" SchH is not all about protection work". Really? What is the translation of SchH again? Oh sure there are three phases but to say SchH is not about protection is outrageous and really shows just how much those people do NOT know , especially when it comes to how well protection work tests character. No, I am not talking about the kind of "protection work" we see being done nowadays in SchH, I am talking about the way it used to be and the way it SHOULD be conducted. 

Briefly, SChH used to test the traits that were supposed to be present in the GSD. Courage, hardness, fighting drive, willingness to obey, and so on. As time passed and people got more clever with the training, many of those traits have been diminished. People who did not understand what a GSD is supposed to be GENETICALLY, began to train them like they were just any old breed. Meaning, they ignored the idea of "genetic obedience" because they were so arrogant, they thought they could train the dog anyway using electronics and gimmicks. Sadly, they were right and the SchH judges rewarded them. The term "genetic obedience" is as related to a GSD as pointing is to a bird dog. It is a BEHAVIOR bred into the dogs....or at least it used to be. You find less of these dogs now and for sure less of them in SchH training. The need for flash and precision has led people to select dogs with extreme drive so they can tolerate the methods used for training. Drive is capable of hiding weakness and this type of breeding and training has been a way of doing just that. Used to be you didn't have to rev the dogs up so much to get them to do the work. They GENETICALLY wanted to do it. They would see the bad guy, and because they had a protective instinct, when it was appropriate to do so, they would bite him with power and commitment. Now we see people spending the first year of a dogs' life building up his desire to chase rags etc. Sorry, this should just NOT be necessary but try to convince the people who "think" they know GSDs ,or what SchH is supposed to be for that matter. I have not seen very many SchH people who understand the "Breed Standard" because SchH doesn't test it anymore. 

I can't tell you how many people have said to me when I am teaching them helper work..."no one has ever told me these things Anne." They had been to other clubs and some were there working everyone's dog as the helper. These are basic rules of understanding how to train, what drives and instincts you work with as the "bad guy" etc, ", but these people were simply blank slates. Why are they that way? Because huge majorities of people in SchH do not understand the BREED and what the dog should bring NATURALLY out on the SchH field. They are only slightly more educated than the general public if you ask me.

For years, the dogs working in SchH lacked power and commitment but were very "correct". They were mostly working in prey drive . Nowadays, people are trying to bring back "aggression" into the dogs. In reality, ( and I have been guilty of using that term also), it is not about aggression in a GSD, it is FIGHT DRIVE we are looking for and that is not simply aggression. For well over a decade, the dogs were as I described above and the nerves and courage were not being tested. I am talking about working lines here since show line SchH is simply an aberration that doesn't even deserve to be discussed. Now , we have people adding aggression to dogs who's nerves are not "really" being tested in SchH. This is and will be a problem that once again must be adjusted. I can say this as a breeder. I know which modern lines to go to breed in more drive, I know where to go to get more aggression but what is getting REALLY hard to find are lines known for nerves . My idea of what good nerves are seems to be different than what I see most people accepting nowadays. You have to SEE a dog like that, you cannot be told or advised about what good nerves are. The GSD was meant to be experienced not simply talked about. Fight drive is MUCH harder to find as well and the majority of SchH dogs do not have it. 

Now, since everyone will think I am bagging on SchH, I will say this. Just about everything I learned about GSDs I learned while doing SchH. But SchH is not SchH anymore. It is a sport and it is not testing what it used to test which again, was the GSD standard. Courage . hardness fighting drive, willingness to obey....without a shock collar... I think the biggest thing that is missing in the dogs now is genetic obedience and a protective instinct. I mean a real protective instinct where the dog can actually determine what is and is not a threat and respond accordingly. I am talking about dogs who, when in this state of mind, are still so in tuned to their handler and so willing to comply, they can be controlled rather easily. No, not controlled through the use of an e-collar, control that is GENETIC because the nerves, courage, willingness are already IN the dog, not installed thru training. Dogs who are more naturally capable of escalating or de-escalating based on the level of threat.

SchhH was never intended to be "Martial Arts for Dogs" where the training is "making them into" this or that. It was about testing to see if it was already there GENETICALLY. The cart is now in front of the horse where the training takes precedence over who the dog is. I can't tell people how to select dogs, with titles or without. You have to educate yourself about the breed. Years ago, it seemed the GSD standard was better understood, even by the general public. The term Police Dog was synonymous with German Shepherd. People expected that they WOULD protect and could easily be Guide Dogs or could find a child, even without years of SAR training. It was expected they would have that ability GENETICALLY. I seriously doubt people breeding GSDs just for pets understand all that I just said or even why it is important but simply titling a dog doesn't guarantee that understanding either.

Sorry about the long post!


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## Liesje

What I don't understand about threads like these is people who say they "just want a pet, not...." Why sell yourself short? Do you want a German Shepherd Dog or.....??? Why would you not want your pet to also have the same basic characteristics of temperament that make the breed what it is as a working breed? Do pet people not care about solid nerve, appropriate threshold levels, aggression, protectiveness, desire to be with and work with the handler? Or do they just want a shell of a dog that looks like a German Shepherd?


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## LaRen616

Liesje said:


> What I don't understand about threads like these is people who say they "just want a pet, not...." Why sell yourself short? Do you want a German Shepherd Dog or.....??? Why would you not want your pet to also have the same basic characteristics of temperament that make the breed what it is as a working breed? Do pet people not care about solid nerve, appropriate threshold levels, aggression, protectiveness, desire to be with and work with the handler? *Or do they just want a shell of a dog that looks like a German Shepherd?*


They want a coach potato or a backyard dog that looks like a German Shepherd.


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## Samba

I know people who have had black and tan dogs of German Shepherd pedigree for decades who have never owned a German Shepherd!


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## DJEtzel

Liesje said:


> What I don't understand about threads like these is people who say they "just want a pet, not...." Why sell yourself short? Do you want a German Shepherd Dog or.....??? Why would you not want your pet to also have the same basic characteristics of temperament that make the breed what it is as a working breed? Do pet people not care about solid nerve, appropriate threshold levels, aggression, protectiveness, desire to be with and work with the handler? Or do they just want a shell of a dog that looks like a German Shepherd?


This is exactly what I was thinking, but didn't post because I didn't know how to put it in words.

Not titling a dog pretty much means somewhere down the line it's not going to be a GSD anymore. If it's not being bred for the correct temperament of the GSD, it's not being bred well. PERIOD.


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## Liesje

And when I think about the last few dogs I've brought home, while I do SchH and SDA and a host of other "sports", the most restrictive criteria are things relating to my lifestyle and living environment. To be honest there is probably a large spectrum of temperament and pedigrees I'm OK with for training/titling purposes but the dog I can *live* with, the dog I can take to my cottage and have off-lead indoors/outdoors around a dozen "strangers" including boisterous men, little kids, and other dogs is really what determines what I'm looking for in my shepherd. No other breed "fits" the glove quite like the GSD but I'm still super-choosy because I cannot just keep my dogs in a row of kennels.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> I was once told that I could not breed to a dog until he had his titles . And I could not breed to the dog until I had titled my dog.
> 
> The irony is that the male was my breeding , as was the female , and I could tell this person a thousand things more about the dogs going back for generations, and what they would get generations ahead in the future.
> 
> The person belonged to a schutzhund club with several of my dogs in training , and later being titled , even going to Nationals.


I may be in a similar situation. My breeder wants me to keep Vinca intact for possible future breeding... my first reaction was "but then I have to put titles on her, and I'm not sure if I have the wherewithall, and of course she can't be bred without titles!"

As though I know more about her breeding than she does.  

Still, I think even my breeder agrees that she should be titled and proven before any breeding takes place. I am on the fence about it; she is my dog, so ultimately my decision whether to breed her or not. But if we are able to jump through all the required hoops, and I agreed to do it, I would lease her back to the breeder. That way she can make all the decisions and do all the hard work.


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## Andaka

> Nobody is against people owning pets; we're against people breeding pets.


I just thought that this should be repeated.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> Drive is capable of hiding weakness


Yes. A dog without true courage can be made to pass a SchH trial through prey drive alone.



> But SchH is not SchH anymore. It is a sport and it is not testing what it used to test which again, was the GSD standard. Courage . hardness fighting drive, willingness to obey....
> 
> ... The cart is now in front of the horse where the training takes precedence over who the dog is. I can't tell people how to select dogs, with titles or without. You have to educate yourself about the breed.


Good points.

As much as SchH has its flaws in determining the true character of the dog, I still think there ought to be a system in place... something that shows the dog is at least trainable and willing to work and handle different environments. As much as SchH may have changed from a breedworthiness test into a sport, I don't think breeders ought to use that as an excuse not to title.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Vandal said:


> Sorry about the long post!


Anne,

It was a WONDERFUL post and one that every GSD owner or potential owner should read!!

Thank You!!!


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## Liesje

Freestep said:


> As much as SchH has its flaws in determining the true character of the dog, I still think there ought to be a system in place... something that shows the dog is at least trainable and willing to work and handle different environments.


There is, it's called doing just what you say, training and handling the dog in different environments, testing the dog in a variety of ways. Can't just be a piece of paper and a trophy, it is a process not a product. The problem is people want this neatly packaged, breeder or expert or someone else to do this and produce a paper which validates the dog and makes them feel good about getting a puppy/dog from that person. But if you really want to know what is in a dog, you have to be willing to learn. Go watch the dog train, watch it in trial, watch how it acts hanging out informally, etc. A few times other people have actually let me handle their dog in obedience and protection to get a "feel" for it. I have totally changed my mind about dogs going from seeing how their breeder or handler describes them, how they look on video, and how they look in pedigree to actually observing the dog in person, meeting the dog, and perhaps handling it myself. I've changed my mind for and against wanting a puppy from some dogs by looking at the dog and not the papers, and I'm not some expert that has grown up around GSDs but I know what I want and rarely just take someone's word for it.


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## paulag1955

Anne, that was an epic post! Thank you.


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## paulag1955

Question. Is a dog that's well suited to title in Schutzhund also well suited to be a family pet?


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## Vandal

> As much as SchH may have changed from a breedworthiness test into a sport, I don't think breeders ought to use that as an excuse not to title.


 
Can you explain why ? I don't want to get into the excuse stuff. I just want to understand why a breeder needs to use something that doesn't test breed worthiness. That is what you just said. 

I've worked enough Schh titled dogs, ( and watched the reactions of their handlers when I did), to know it isn't telling people much at all. 

I think a big part of the problem is that breeders are breeding Schutzhund dogs not German Shepherd dogs.

As for what Lies just said. My dogs would not work for you, they might "tolerate you" but they won't be complying with what a stranger asks them to do. ...and they sure wouldn't want to protect you. This idea I do not understand at all. My old Golden retriever would have though.


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## Dainerra

paulag1955 said:


> Question. Is a dog that's well suited to title in Schutzhund also well suited to be a family pet?


Absolutely!


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## paulag1955

Dainerra said:


> Absolutely!


Why?


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> Question. Is a dog that's well suited to title in Schutzhund also well suited to be a family pet?


Depends on your idea of a family pet. If it's a dog that you can ignore for days on end and take him out for a walk on Saturday and Sunday then no. But I would argue that no German Shepherd should be like that.


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## Dainerra

Re schutzhund, I believe they are talking about breeders who use it as an excuse to do nothing.
"Oh sch is so watered down it doesn't mean anything. Ism not interested in doing obedience, its boring. I don't have space for sheep, so I don't want to do herding" and on and on until they have eliminated all the options.

Again, I think it comes down to choosing a breeder who knows how to interpret what that title means for that dog.


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## Mrs.K

> The term Police Dog was synonymous with German Shepherd. People expected that they WOULD protect and could easily be Guide Dogs or could find a child, even without years of SAR training. It was expected they would have that ability GENETICALLY. I seriously doubt people breeding GSDs just for pets understand all that I just said or even why it is important but simply titling a dog doesn't guarantee that understanding either.


As well as herding was in them genetically. Experienced that first hand when our flock got loose. The dog never had any training as a herding dog, yet he brought those sheep in as if he never done anything else in his life. It was in that dog genetically. 

As for genetic obedience, I think it's still out there.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> Depends on your idea of a family pet. If it's a dog that you can ignore for days on end and take him out for a walk on Saturday and Sunday then no. But I would argue that no German Shepherd should be like that.


Not my idea of a family pet so much as what an "average family" would be looking for in a family pet. What specific traits that you'd find in a good Schutzhund dog would or wouldn't make a good family pet and why?


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## Mrs.K

paulag1955 said:


> Not my idea of a family pet so much as what an "average family" would be looking for in a family pet. What specific traits that you'd find in a good Schutzhund dog would or wouldn't make a good family pet and why?


Any well bred, solid German Shepherd Dog is suitable as a pet as well as a working dog and with working dog, I don't necessarily mean Schutzhund. 

The Shepherd is supposed to be a Utility dog that easily adapts to a new lifestyle. A shepherd should not have any issues living in an apartment, large house, outdoor kennel, or even in a trailer on the road.


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> Not my idea of a family pet so much as what an "average family" would be looking for in a family pet. What specific traits that you'd find in a good Schutzhund dog would or wouldn't make a good family pet and why?


Did you read Vandal's post? She described it better than I could. Genetic obedience and biddability, genetic protectiveness and discrimination between good guy and bad guy, fearlessness and strong nerves, intelligence, persistence, hunt/search drive. 

Now of course things like protectiveness, fearlessness, intelligence and persistence, along with the inherent exercise needs of an active herding breed, can be a bad thing in the hands of a lazy, inattentive owner who just wants a yard ornament or living throw rug. But I just don't think German Shepherds should be bred for those types of owners. 

There's also the fact that current scoring trends in SchH dogs means that the top-level, highest scoring dogs (not the same thing as SchHIII, I'm talking about dogs that compete at the national and world level) can be over-the top drivey prey monsters that everyone's always complaining about. The dogs that can't settle down or live in the house. But every German Shepherd should be able to earn an SchH1 at the local level. The fact that it's some sort of big thing to have an SchH titled dog is a sad sign of the state of the breed.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> I just want to understand why a breeder needs to use something that doesn't test breed worthiness. That is what you just said.
> 
> I've worked enough Schh titled dogs, ( and watched the reactions of their handlers when I did), to know it isn't telling people much at all.


I should have been clearer about what I meant. Breeders should get *some* sort of titles on their breeding stock, but it doesn't have to be SchH. There are other titles that can be acheived, as well as real-world work. Police, SAR, guide, and herding dogs do not necessarily have titles, but I would not dispute their breedworthiness.

SchH is one way to test your dog, not the only way, and IMO not necessarily the best way, but it is something that shows you have worked with the dog and that the dog is trainable.

The system may be corrupt and some dogs may be able to acheive titles they don't deserve, but that does not mean every SchH dog is worthless. A true GSD should be able to pass a trial with flying colors... if he has no title, I am going to wonder why.


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## Andaka

> But I just don't think German Shepherds should be bred for those types of owners.


I don't think German Shepherds should belong to those types of owners.


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## Vandal

Let me be clear here. I am not saying people should not title their dogs. That's up to them.. I am saying that first and foremost, your dog should be a German Shepherd dog. If he has a title, I sure would not hold it against him, as long as the first consideration is met. That's all I am trying to say. In the last few decades, we have drifted away from the idea of a German Shepherd and have made breeding too much about "Show Dogs" and " Sport Dogs". 

One more thing I would like to make clear. What I said about working people's dogs and their reactions. I wasn't just talking about negative behaviors in their dogs. I was also talking about good behaviors that those people had NEVER seen in their dogs. Where they were pressured and the real dog came out, not the playing behavior they had been doing in the years of SchH training they had done. I don't expect that many doing SchH even understand what I am saying here and THAT is also what I am talking about. All the talk about pressure and threat when in reality, the dogs are not seeing very much of it at all.

Was SchH always "pretty" back then. Oh no...not at all. Sometimes just ugly but you could get an idea of who the dogs really were and we STILL talk about those dogs. We STILL want to see them in the pedigree. Now why do you suppose that is? It's because so many of us saw what kinds of dogs those were. There were no fancy tricks, although there were shock collars, and lots of pressure from everywhere,. The dogs could handle it though because they were tougher. Does a family dog ever have to deal with stress or even pain. YES. SchH used to show you how well the dog could handle pain and threat and how composed he could remain. How well he could "think" while that was going on. 
When the threat is not there and when the training simply makes the dog "look" like he has genetic obedience you don't know if it is there or not. Might be there but the way people train is ignoring it, and actually hiding it.

The real sad part of the whole Schh thing is that it DID test breed worthiness and it certainly was the "gold standard" for that. Now it has been reduced to what breeders and people are calling " the bare minimum" but is still somehow necessary. I guess I find that kind of maddening. Where people just accept it and not demand it be changed. It's really convenient to say you train the old way while the test is not the old test. 

Why we keep following Germany and the SV right off the cliff, I will never understand.


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## wolfstraum

The biggest problem with Schutzhund is the scarcity of good safe training helpers in this country....there is a saying - no training is better than bad training!!! To train - it is 240 - 350 miles to someone I want to work with and trust...a few people are lucky enough to have a club in their backyard or next door - so titles are going to be a long long hard road on my young females....heck, just to train tracking, I need to do a minimum of a 60 mile round trip for space and grass where dogs are not going to get you cited!

I have titled 2 dogs from pups to multiple Sch3s - training those two plus pups religiously, 2-3 times a week at schutzhund club, 2x a week at AKC club, so my Sch dogs had AKC titles too...did a couple more trained not titled all the way, but titled, and trained/trialed dogs acquired with titles....I did horses 30ish years....Breeding wise, went from backyard Appy mare to a Sporthorse capable of being top 3 at 3 day events at the Kentucky Horse park in four generations of my own female family...trained and showed English/jump/hunt and Western....have a granddaughter of my original sch3 now....lives as a pet with friends, and I will breed her before titles - waiting for titles has cost me to nearly lose my female family because breeding a female the first time at 6 is not productive! I will title her and I do work her...and littermate will be titled in CA as well...she does have a conformation rating so far...

I have a pretty good idea of what is what, and am brutally objective. My dogs are chosen to be stable solid companions as well as working dogs. I know the difference between "sport" and "real work"....one dog from my breeding is a LE K9 -he is also the self appointed companion and protector of his handler's 4 year old daughter - so the dog bred for work should be able to work, act as a family companion/protector - When people tell me "I don't want to pay more than $500 - I don't want a show dog - I want a pet" I ask them why they should want a less than a stable safe healthy dog? That is what a breeder should strive to produce....I have pups doing SAR, sport, LE, AKC OB/Agility, flyball, dock diving - but all still family pets! 

Lee


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## Vandal

The biggest problem is not safety...not where I live. Might be a bit too much about safety that is destroying it. Helper work is presented as mechanics mostly and the understanding of the dogs, his drives and how to get to them, is ignored. It is knowledge, and helpers who can really work the dogs that SchH needs .


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## NarysDad

onyx'girl said:


> Chuck, do you work your dogs? And if so, in what venues?


Jane, yes I do work my dogs although i don't belong to a club, I do all my training here on the property


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Let me be clear here. I am not saying people should not title their dogs. That's up to them.. I am saying that first and foremost, your dog should be a German Shepherd dog. If he has a title, I sure would not hold it against him, as long as the first consideration is met. That's all I am trying to say. In the last few decades, we have drifted away from the idea of a German Shepherd and have made breeding too much about "Show Dogs" and " Sport Dogs".
> 
> One more thing I would like to make clear. What I said about working people's dogs and their reactions. I wasn't just talking about negative behaviors in their dogs. I was also talking about good behaviors that those people had NEVER seen in their dogs. Where they were pressured and the real dog came out, not the playing behavior they had been doing in the years of SchH training they had done. I don't expect that many doing SchH even understand what I am saying here and THAT is also what I am talking about. All the talk about pressure and threat when in reality, the dogs are not seeing very much of it at all.
> 
> Was SchH always "pretty" back then. Oh no...not at all. Sometimes just ugly but you could get an idea of who the dogs really were and we STILL talk about those dogs. We STILL want to see them in the pedigree. Now why do you suppose that is? It's because so many of us saw what kinds of dogs those were. There were no fancy tricks, although there were shock collars, and lots of pressure from everywhere,. The dogs could handle it though because they were tougher. Does a family dog ever have to deal with stress or even pain. YES. SchH used to show you how well the dog could handle pain and threat and how composed he could remain. How well he could "think" while that was going on.
> When the threat is not there and when the training simply makes the dog "look" like he has genetic obedience you don't know if it is there or not. Might be there but the way people train is ignoring it, and actually hiding it.
> 
> The real sad part of the whole Schh thing is that it DID test breed worthiness and it certainly was the "gold standard" for that. Now it has been reduced to what breeders and people are calling " the bare minimum" but is still somehow necessary. I guess I find that kind of maddening. Where people just accept it and not demand it be changed. It's really convenient to say you train the old way while the test is not the old test.
> 
> * Why we keep following Germany and the SV right off the cliff, I will never understand.*


Then why don't you start a change? It can only happen if a person, with believe and ideals and the knowledge takes the challene and actually does something about it. If Germany doesn't do it, you can always do it in the US and set new standards. If they work, they might actually be picked up by people outside the US.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Originally Posted by *paulag1955*  
_Question. Is a dog that's well suited to title in Schutzhund also well suited to be a family pet?_​Orignally posted by *Dainerra*>
_Absolutely!_​Originally Posted by *paulag1955*  
_Why?_​Because a suitable *temperament* for competing in Schutzhund (strong nerves, stable, confident, protective, etc.) also applies to being a great family pet.


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## paulag1955

You know I still don't agree with you all but this is a fascinating discussion and I'm learning a lot!


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## Liesje

paulag1955 said:


> Not my idea of a family pet so much as what an "average family" would be looking for in a family pet. What specific traits that you'd find in a good Schutzhund dog would or wouldn't make a good family pet and why?


This question helps illustrate the problem. It's not about what traits make a good pet vs. Schutzhund dog, it's about what traits make a _*German Shepherd Dog*_. Whether or not a *German Shepherd Dog* makes a good pet is up to the person, if that is the kind of dog that fits their lifestyle. I know a few "average families" for whom it would be a disaster to own a GSD and plenty I would feel very comfortable recommending a GSD.


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## gagsd

liesje said:


> this question helps illustrate the problem. It's not about what traits make a good pet vs. Schutzhund dog, it's about what traits make a _*german shepherd dog*_. Whether or not a *german shepherd dog* makes a good pet is up to the person, if that is the kind of dog that fits their lifestyle. I know a few "average families" for whom it would be a disaster to own a gsd and plenty i would feel very comfortable recommending a gsd.


yes!


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## SchHGSD

Vandal said:


> I think a big part of the problem is that breeders are breeding Schutzhund dogs not German Shepherd dogs.


Worth repeating. As a schutzhund person, and competitor, I agree you are 100% correct. As with anything, the extreme is always negative.


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## lhczth

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Are these tests not helpful then in determining a puppy's temperament? And if so, why?*Please only someone with experience in temperament testing answer this question as an accurate answer to this is important to me.*


Temperament tests *CAN* give you a glimpse at the genetic potential of a puppy on the day of testing. It is then added to the knowledge the breeder or buyer has of the genetics behind the pup including what they know about the sire/dam and the grandparents. When I test a litter or watch one of my own being tested the main things I look for are how the pup deals with a strange environment and other environmental stressors. Do they play, do they explore, do they notice things and if so how do they recover? 

With my D litter if I had looked for crazy prey drive and desire to chase and carry toys at 7 weeks I would have been sorely disappointed. The fact that I knew the genetics behind these puppies gave me faith that what I wanted would show up as they aged. It did. My recent litter, their sire showed nothing until he was 4 months old except tremendous nerves. They knew the genetics, they knew the dogs so they waited. If we had just gone strictly by testing at 7 weeks many of these dogs would have been passed up and placed in other homes. 

I had a puppy for 4.5 months that tested very well. Her whole litter tested well. Then around 9-10 weeks old they started to change. In this case the breeder didn't know the sire or the genetics behind the sire well enough or she would have never made this cross. Except for one dog that died of cancer, the rest were destroyed at varying ages due to extreme unbalances in temperament. Here, testing told us nothing. 

So, puppy testing helps, but it doesn't tell us everything and if the breeder has little knowledge of their dogs other than they are nice pets and nice at home, then the testing becomes almost worthless. 


BTW, I have tested quite a few litters for others, a few for myself and then oversaw the testing of 5 of my own litters.


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## crackem

I think a bigger problem is that most breeders don't know what they **** they're breeding. Two dogs with titles that they've seen a on a field a few times, if that. Most are breeding "titles". Go to a few that actually work their own dogs, know their lines and work towards something. They have good dogs. Dogs that can fit any bill you need them too. I've met a few of them. 

Most are just letting dogs produce puppies. Some might have titles, but it hardly makes them different than mom and pop selling puppies out of the paper.


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## paulag1955

Liesje said:


> This question helps illustrate the problem. It's not about what traits make a good pet vs. Schutzhund dog, it's about what traits make a _*German Shepherd Dog*_. Whether or not a *German Shepherd Dog* makes a good pet is up to the person, if that is the kind of dog that fits their lifestyle. I know a few "average families" for whom it would be a disaster to own a GSD and plenty I would feel very comfortable recommending a GSD.


I'm on my way to making a point but I have some work to finish up first.


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## cliffson1




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## paulag1955

cliffson1 said:


>


Heh.


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## Liesje

I've seen some dogs I REALLY like that I can't get a puppy from because they are not breeding. I'm not saying everyone should breed BUT it's not just titles that's the problem but people getting way too enamored over certain dogs and totally ignoring others that are very nice but either their owners aren't breeders and wouldn't ever think to breed them or they are open to breeding but no one is coming to them because they want a VA dog or a WUSV competitor.


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> This question helps illustrate the problem. It's not about what traits make a good pet vs. Schutzhund dog, it's about what traits make a _*German Shepherd Dog*_. Whether or not a *German Shepherd Dog* makes a good pet is up to the person, if that is the kind of dog that fits their lifestyle.


^^^This x10!

People are breeding offshoots of the GSD, like Shiloh Shepherds, King Shepherds, and now this "American Alsatian" that are basically a watered-down version of the GSD. I guess the perception is that a milder version of the GSD would better fit the lifestyle of those who want a Golden Retriever in a GSD suit.


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## sagelfn

Anne I'm curious.. who do you sell dogs to? I'm sure I'm just reading it wrong but your post with regard to Lies comment makes it sound like the GSDs you breed are not suitable family companions.

I want a "jack of all trades" GSD like they should be. A dog I can do many types of work/sport with that I can also trust at home with friends and family over.


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## Vandal

What comment? That my dogs would not want to protect her? That they would not work for her? WHY should they? They are not HER dogs. They have NO BOND, no REASON to protect her or work for her. You are kidding right?


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## Vandal

This is what Lies said that I was responding to.


> A few times other people have actually let me handle their dog in obedience and protection to get a "feel" for it. I have totally changed my mind about dogs going from seeing how their breeder or handler describes them, how they look on video, and how they look in pedigree to actually observing the dog in person, meeting the dog, and perhaps handling it myself.


Maybe that will clear it up for you. It would never occur to me to allow someone to handle one of my dogs for the reasons I just listed. Maybe they can work the dog as the helper but they will not be "test driving" them as the handler. A GSD that works for "anyone" is a not a GSD, not in my definition. It does kind of make my point about protection training and what it has become and also obedience. The dog should work for you because you have established a relationship with him, not because you have a ball stuck on your chest.


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## Liesje

Vandal said:


> As for what Lies just said. My dogs would not work for you, they might "tolerate you" but they won't be complying with what a stranger asks them to do. ...and they sure wouldn't want to protect you. This idea I do not understand at all. My old Golden retriever would have though.


I wouldn't expect them too but that's kind of what I was getting at. I've had the chance to handle and work some dogs that work the same if not better for people *other* than their owner/handler. That's the sort of thing I want to KNOW about a dog and is a turn off for me personally. But I didn't really mean just that - actually having someone else's dog perform - but just being out on the field with various dogs, helping with line handling, agitation work, etc. Not just watching YouTubes of flashy obedience and such.

Heck, my dog won't even work for my husband! (and I don't want him to either)


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## sagelfn

Yep, I totally read posts wrong I am sorry. This is what I thought you were responding to...



> And when I think about the last few dogs I've brought home, while I do SchH and SDA and a host of other "sports", the most restrictive criteria are things relating to my lifestyle and living environment. To be honest there is probably a large spectrum of temperament and pedigrees I'm OK with for training/titling purposes but the dog I can *live* with, the dog I can take to my cottage and have off-lead indoors/outdoors around a dozen "strangers" including boisterous men, little kids, and other dogs is really what determines what I'm looking for in my shepherd. No other breed "fits" the glove quite like the GSD but I'm still super-choosy because I cannot just keep my dogs in a row of kennels.


She made one more post before the next page of posts (on my settings) and I missed it. Thought your response was to the one I just quoted above



> As for what Lies just said. My dogs would not work for you, they might "tolerate you" but they won't be complying with what a stranger asks them to do. ...and they sure wouldn't want to protect you. This idea I do not understand at all. My old Golden retriever would have though.


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## Liesje

Brandi, sorry I was not clear. I think(?) we are on the same page.... what I really meant was actually BEING there and being involved in training, not necessarily doing obedience routines with the dog or expecting the dog to protect a stranger. A lot of times in training people need help, maybe not everyone but most of us don't have the years of experience and sometimes need another person to help with line handling and such. I don't think there are substitutes for being able to observe a dog doing the work in person. Like I said above, some dogs will go out and do the same performance regardless of who is holding the leash or dangling the toy and for me it's a turn off. There's training and then there's brainwashing...


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## sagelfn

My fault everyone. I'm sorry. Lies I missed the post Anne was responding to so I thought she was responding to the one I quoted. Messed everything all up. Now that I am on the same page I completely agree all that was said.


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## Liesje

Not your fault, I was the one that was not clear and made it sound like I *should* be able to handle anyone's dog which is not what I meant, at least not what I had in mind. I don't let anyone handle my dogs, not even my family members (I don't even do the "pass the puppy" think in the 8 week old puppy class). When looking for a dog and asking some people about their dogs a few told me that their dogs absolutely would not tolerate corrections from other people but the more I learned about those specific dogs the more I liked them.


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## sagelfn

Lies when you say handle do you only mean train? You don't allow other people to train with your dog? Or do you actually mean handle them - walk them, give known commands, etc..

This isn't a problem with Sage but for future reference if there is ever a time -properly bred dog #2- has to be boarded or stay with family he has to obey them.


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## Chris Wild

I understand what Anne and Lies are saying and agree. More than a few times at our club handlers have asked me to demo something with their dog and well, it doesn't work. Dog stands there staring at the owner and if I get any acknowledgement at all it's just a "who the heck are you" glance. If I'm going to demo something, I have to go get one of my own dogs to do it. And this even from dogs we bred and raised as pups so they do at least know us from Adam. The handlers often seem down about that as if there's something wrong with the dog, even when we tell them this is a correct attitude in the dog and are proud that the dog is showing it. That's what saddens me about it, that their dogs are acting like GSDs, but today's dog culture thinks it is a bad thing.

We have one dog who would work for anyone offering a ball and a belly rub. She's social to a fault and it's one of the things on her short list of "don't like, want to improve" when it comes to breeding. The others wouldn't even think of it and if someone tried to get them to work for them, would get the same "who the heck are you" look.

Now the neighbor kids, that's a different story. They can come over and play with the dogs and the dogs will happily do little obedience tricks for the kids. But IMO a GSD should be different with children than adults.

Still this has never been a problem in other situations where people have had to handle the dog in non-training scenarios. We've handed dogs off for someone else to hold the leash at training and trials while we ran to do something, handed them off to techs at the vet clinic, had family and friends watch them while we're away, and there has never been a problem. They mind well enough in those everyday situations. But they aren't going to be going out and working for that person. Big difference between the two types of "handling".


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## sagelfn

Thank you Chris. That is what I thought but just needed clarification.


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## wolfstraum

Liesje said:


> I've seen some dogs I REALLY like that I can't get a puppy from because they are not breeding. I'm not saying everyone should breed BUT it's not just titles that's the problem but people getting way too enamored over certain dogs and totally ignoring others that are very nice but either their owners aren't breeders and wouldn't ever think to breed them or they are open to breeding but no one is coming to them because they want a VA dog or a WUSV competitor.


 
The problem is that everyone wants the pup from the big name dog!!! Especially the newcomers to Euro dogs. They get so confused at the plethora of claims here, may get burned by a seller who is next to clueless who is breeding titled dogs without any real depth of knowledge, so they go to some big name in Europe and buy a pup. 

I see people here buying pups from Europe on the basis of the sire winning XXXX - and they have no clue what they are getting, or if they will get what they are told they will get. 

These buyers are won't buy a good pup in the US because they think that buying a pup from a "name" dog ensures their getting a "good" one...and they are going to get the least of the pups in the litter from Europe in most cases....have seen it happen over and over. 

I have bred to total unknowns who never saw a field in the US (at the time of breeding) and National winning/WUSV dogs....but in each case, I either knew the dog's family/pedigree or someone I trusted knew the dog well....I have a pretty good network of people training and competing who I talk dogs with regularly....so I get good feedback and objective information. 

It does not matter to me what the dog has won, if I think he will complement my female, if the pedigree is compatible, if the dog is stable and has solid nerves and drives....I can breed to WUSV competition dogs any time I want....but there is more to matching up dogs that counting how many big event participants there are in a pedigree! 

Lee


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## selzer

Hmmmm. I suppose that is why our trainer always picks a lab or newf or brings her own leonberger to demonstrate stuff with. She never tries to get my shepherds to show something unless she asks me to do whatever it is. Interesting. However, when I went to sell Rushie. He was just four and had been to a bunch of classes, titled and TDI, my friend who knew the person buying the dog, told me to give her the lead, and she went ahead and did a group of obedience exersizes with my dog, and he did all of them perfectly, for someone else! Hmmmph! We had been in classes together, so both of us were using the same body language, and commands, and the dog just did what he was told. Maybe it was them working lines in him, I always said that dog would go home with anyone who had better treats than me -- which would be anyone. My girls would have probably looked at my friend like she was from Mars, then look at me and ask if she was for real.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> ^^^This x10!
> 
> People are breeding offshoots of the GSD, like Shiloh Shepherds, King Shepherds, and now this "American Alsatian" that are basically a watered-down version of the GSD. I guess the perception is that a milder version of the GSD would better fit the lifestyle of those who want a Golden Retriever in a GSD suit.


Shiloh and King Shepherds are wonderful dogs in their own right. They are not German Shepherds, why would you call them "fake GSD's" thats what you are saying when you call them a Golden Retriever in a GSD suit, not cool.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Shiloh and King Shepherds are wonderful dogs in their own right. They are not German Shepherds, why would you call them "fake GSD's" thats what you are saying when you call them a Golden Retriever in a GSD suit, not cool.


Let's be brutally honest here. Those breeds were bred by people who liked the looks of the GSD but wanted it in a bigger package with less energy and lower drives. Even the founders of the breeds admit that.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> Let's be brutally honest here. Those breeds were bred by people who liked the looks of the GSD but wanted it in a bigger package with less energy and lower drives. Even the founders of the breeds admit that.


Why do you have a problem with that if people want dogs with those qualities? It's not as though they're breeding them and calling them GSDs.


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## selzer

Oh come on, doesn't everyone want a sheltie sized GSD with a calm, quiet, loyal, intelligent demeaner, and an ordinary deep GSD bark? No? Bummer, I was thinking of making my own breed.


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> Why do you have a problem with that if people want dogs with those qualities? It's not as though they're breeding them and calling them GSDs.


I got no problems with those breeds. In fact, I'm glad they're around for people who want oversized, laid-back dogs who resemble German Shepherds. GermanShepherdLova said that they weren't fake GSDs or Goldens in GSD suits. Yes, they kind of are and that's ok. I'd rather have a separate breed be Oversized GSD-lite than have people breeding oversized GSD-lite and calling it a German Shepherd. I'm just pointing out that they're not an original creation like Briards or St. Bernards or Poodles. People saw a GSD and wanted that, but bigger and with less drive. They want the "big, calm" GSD they remember from the 50's when they were 3 feet tall and high on Ovaltine.


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## JakodaCD OA

This has been an interesting "read" and lots of good insite

Of all the gsd's I've had/have, you can hand them off to anyone, but there is no way they will do anything for them, they give them that "I ain't doin nothin for YOU so don't even ask" look

I have no problem with people wanting a shiloh or a king shepherd, but they are as Emoore describes, oversized dogs with lower energy and lower drives. 

As for titles,,sure they are nice, when your looking for a breeder, I'm more interested in the knowledge of 'said' breeder, why they are breeding what they are breeding, what they expect out of it, then I'm going for health, temperament and soundness. 

Honestly, someone like carmen, cliff, ann, chris, robin, (and I know I'm forgetting some and it's totally unintentional),,I wouldn't give a fig if they were breeding purple dogs, I respect their knowledge, I know they "know their stuff" and would take a puppy site unseen from any one of them. Titles, no titles, and even if they were little green aliens)

The key to finding a good dog, is finding a knowledgeable breeder and trusting them to know what will fit the bill for a potential owner.


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## Germanshepherdlova

paulag1955 said:


> Why do you have a problem with that if people want dogs with those qualities? It's not as though they're breeding them and calling them GSDs.


Exactly, and GSD's look like Malinois don't they but they are a little smaller, a little quicker-should Malinois owners say the same about GSD's? That people want a tamer version of a Malinois so they have a GSD. Of course not, and they are not the same dog. They are a different breed. And nobody says anything about that.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> I got no problems with those breeds. In fact, I'm glad they're around for people who want oversized, laid-back dogs who resemble German Shepherds. GermanShepherdLova said that they weren't fake GSDs or Goldens in GSD suits. Yes, they kind of are and that's ok. I'd rather have a separate breed be Oversized GSD-lite than have people breeding oversized GSD-lite and calling it a German Shepherd. I'm just pointing out that they're not an original creation like Briards or St. Bernards or Poodles. People saw a GSD and wanted that, but bigger and with less drive. They want the "big, calm" GSD they remember from the 50's when they were 3 feet tall and high on Ovaltine.


Yes! Exactly! We agree on something!


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> Yes! Exactly! We agree on something!


We probably agree on lots of things; just not this specific thread.


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## Chris Wild

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Exactly, and GSD's look like Malinois don't they but they are a little smaller, a little quicker-should Malinois owners say the same about GSD's? That people want a tamer version of a Malinois so they have a GSD. Of course not, and they are not the same dog. They are a different breed. And nobody says anything about that.


Well, that argument would only hold if the 2 breeds were created from one another, as is the case with Kings/Shilohs and GSDs, but not with Mals and GSDs.

But anyway, I'm glad those breeds exist for those wanting that sort of dog. I would rather those who want a dog who looks like a GSD in some respects, but is very different in others, create a new breed, call it a new breed, and be honest about what they are doing and why, than people who breed GSDs that aren't GSDs, but still call them GSDs and market them as such and in many cases claim the are the "real" or "original" or "old fashioned" GSDs.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Exactly, and GSD's look like Malinois don't they but they are a little smaller, a little quicker-should Malinois owners say the same about GSD's? That people want a tamer version of a Malinois so they have a GSD. Of course not, and they are not the same dog. They are a different breed. And nobody says anything about that.


That's because neither one was developed for the express purpose of being a lower maintenance or lower energy or bigger or smaller version of the other. Shilohs and Kings were, and the breed founders themselves state this. Shilohs, Kings, and Shepalutes all started with the GSD as their basic template and then added other breeds to change what they wanted. This is not the case with Mals and GSDs.


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## Germanshepherdlova

But the Malinois and GSD have basically the same genetic make up. Thus they look alike, coats are basically the same, etc.

Also, if it's not using the name GSD-then why should it matter to anyone?


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## JakodaCD OA

I respectively disagree, unless you've lived with a malinois they are not like any of the gsd's I've had/have. 

There are a couple of members on this board with Mals and I think they will tell you they are a 'tad' different than gsd's..


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## Germanshepherdlova

JakodaCD OA said:


> I respectively disagree, unless you've lived with a malinois they are not like any of the gsd's I've had/have.
> 
> There are a couple of members on this board with Mals and I think they will tell you they are a 'tad' different than gsd's..


They have their differences but still they share many of the same genetics. They would not look so similar if this weren't so. Many people even confuse them and can't tell them apart other than the Malinois looks smaller.


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## JakodaCD OA

Honestly, I don't think mals and gsd's look similar at all. This is my gsd and her mally friend. People who can't tell the difference usually haven't been exposed to mals.


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## Freestep

Emoore said:


> I got no problems with those breeds. In fact, I'm glad they're around for people who want oversized, laid-back dogs who resemble German Shepherds. GermanShepherdLova said that they weren't fake GSDs or Goldens in GSD suits. Yes, they kind of are and that's ok. I'd rather have a separate breed be Oversized GSD-lite than have people breeding oversized GSD-lite and calling it a German Shepherd.


Yeah, I guess if someone wants a dog that physically resembles a GSD, but that is 120 lb with little drive and low energy level, it's better to have a different breed for them than it is to try to breed GSDs in that direction. I have not really known any Shilohs, Kings, or "American Alsatians" or any other GSD-derived breed, so I can't speak to what it is like to own one. We used to have a Shiloh in our training group, and she was a little shy, but very sweet, soft, and low in drive/energy. From this and from everything I've heard, I understand the temperament of the Shiloh is more Golden Retriever-like than GSD-like, and some people want that. Why they don't just get a Golden, then?... 

Let's face it, most people are attracted to a breed because of the way it looks, even if the breed's actual needs and temperament may be absolutely wrong for them. I do wish people would select their next housepet on the basis of temperament rather than looks, but so many don't... so again, I'd rather those people get a soft, sweet, low-drive Shiloh than a GSD, if it came down to that. 



> People saw a GSD and wanted that, but bigger and with less drive. They want the "big, calm" GSD they remember from the 50's when they were 3 feet tall and high on Ovaltine.


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## paulag1955

Germanshepherdlova said:


> They have their differences but still they share many of the same genetics. They would not look so similar if this weren't so. Many people even confuse them and can't tell them apart other than the Malinois looks smaller.


Shelties look like small collies (or vice versa), but it's my understanding that they were developed independently so looks may not be a reliable indicator.


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## VomBlack

Germanshepherdlova said:


> But the Malinois and GSD have basically the same genetic make up. Thus they look alike, coats are basically the same, etc.


I don't know, all the malinois i've met have had much sleeker coats in comparison to GSDs.. and IMO have a much different shape and build besides just being "smaller". I guess I could see if someone wasn't much of a dog person getting confused and thinking a mal was a GSD or GSDx.


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## Germanshepherdlova

JakodaCD OA said:


> Honestly, I don't think mals and gsd's look similar at all. This is my gsd and her mally friend. People who can't tell the difference usually haven't been exposed to mals.


Seeing them both next to each other it is obvious that the GSD is much more gorgeous than the Malinois. And you are right the bone structure looks different as well.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> They have their differences but still they share many of the same genetics. They would not look so similar if this weren't so. Many people even confuse them and can't tell them apart other than the Malinois looks smaller.


I don't think Mals look anything like GSDs. Their structure is different, their coat color, head shape, and ear set is different, and they also have a different temperament. Mals and GSDs may have a common ancestors, and can perform a lot of the same jobs, but otherwise they seem like apples and oranges to me.


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## Chris Wild

Where on earth did you get this idea that Mals and GSDs are essentially the same genetically????


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## Germanshepherdlova

paulag1955 said:


> Shelties look like small collies (or vice versa), but it's my understanding that they were developed independently so looks may not be a reliable indicator.


I don't know anything about Sheltie's but I will take your word for it  so that is very interesting. I always thought they were just a mini version of a collie. I read somewhere that GSD's and Malinois shared many of the same genetics but I guess that's not accurate.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Chris Wild said:


> Where on earth did you get this idea that Mals and GSDs are essentially the same genetically????


LOL, so you are going to make me confess where I got this erroneous information from....from google.:hammer: It could be worse, at least it wasn't from Wikipedia!


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## Germanshepherdlova

lhczth said:


> Temperament tests *CAN* give you a glimpse at the genetic potential of a puppy on the day of testing. It is then added to the knowledge the breeder or buyer has of the genetics behind the pup including what they know about the sire/dam and the grandparents. When I test a litter or watch one of my own being tested the main things I look for are how the pup deals with a strange environment and other environmental stressors. Do they play, do they explore, do they notice things and if so how do they recover?
> 
> With my D litter if I had looked for crazy prey drive and desire to chase and carry toys at 7 weeks I would have been sorely disappointed. The fact that I knew the genetics behind these puppies gave me faith that what I wanted would show up as they aged. It did. My recent litter, their sire showed nothing until he was 4 months old except tremendous nerves. They knew the genetics, they knew the dogs so they waited. If we had just gone strictly by testing at 7 weeks many of these dogs would have been passed up and placed in other homes.
> 
> I had a puppy for 4.5 months that tested very well. Her whole litter tested well. Then around 9-10 weeks old they started to change. In this case the breeder didn't know the sire or the genetics behind the sire well enough or she would have never made this cross. Except for one dog that died of cancer, the rest were destroyed at varying ages due to extreme unbalances in temperament. Here, testing told us nothing.
> 
> So, puppy testing helps, but it doesn't tell us everything and if the breeder has little knowledge of their dogs other than they are nice pets and nice at home, then the testing becomes almost worthless.
> 
> 
> BTW, I have tested quite a few litters for others, a few for myself and then oversaw the testing of 5 of my own litters.


So temperament testing can't be accurately done until the puppy is more like 4 months old? So then do many breeders keep the pup until this age to determine this? At what should the puppy be ready to go home with his new family, so that it can be determined first if he is the right match for them?


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## SchHGSD

Freestep said:


> I don't think Mals look anything like GSDs. Their structure is different, their coat color, head shape, and ear set is different, and they also have a different temperament. Mals and GSDs may have a common ancestors, and can perform a lot of the same jobs, but otherwise they seem like apples and oranges to me.



Hmmm...but this is a Malinois.










As is this:










Granted, there are differences, but there are also many similarities.


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## Germanshepherdlova

SchHGSD, I have a GSD and I have confused a Malinois for a GSD. IMO, there is no question as far as if they strongly resemble each other they do. They may not have the same genetic make up...I don't know-people here say that is not true. But they must look alike for some reason. Anyone care to explain to me why they look so similar other than it's a coincidence?


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## Emoore

paulag1955 said:


> Shelties look like small collies (or vice versa), but it's my understanding that they were developed independently so looks may not be a reliable indicator.


This is also the case with Miniature Pinschers and Dobermans. Min-Pins are not miniaturized Dobermans. They're not even very closely related.


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## paulag1955

Germanshepherdlova said:


> SchHGSD, I have a GSD and I have confused a Malinois for a GSD. IMO, there is no question as far as if they strongly resemble each other they do. They may not have the same genetic make up...I don't know-people here say that is not true. But they must look alike for some reason. Anyone care to explain to me why they look so similar other than it's a coincidence?


It shouldn't be surprising that dogs who are bred to perform the same functions share some of the same physical and psychological traits, regardless of how closely they resemble each other on the DNA level. Plus if you take into consideration that humans and chimpanzees share 95% of the same DNA, you have to assume that dogs genetic makeup is at least as similar regardless of the breed.


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## SchHGSD

Germanshepherdlova said:


> SchHGSD, I have a GSD and I have confused a Malinois for a GSD. IMO, there is no question as far as if they strongly resemble each other they do. They may not have the same genetic make up...I don't know-people here say that is not true. But they must look alike for some reason. Anyone care to explain to me why they look so similar other than it's a coincidence?


Well, in KNPV for instance, breed does not matter. There are MANY xMals that are Malinois bred with other breeds to make police dogs. These resulting dogs are bred also. Do some find papers somewhere down the line? Hmm, that's the Million dollar question, isn't it.

I would say there is some GSD in many Malinois. There is also, in some countries, some Malinois in many GSDs. To think papers have not been "made up" in both breeds would be erroneous. 

Even in Germany, there were problems with the WRONG showline GSD being bred and producing puppies for another Sire. With DNA, most of this will stop. But to say it didn't happen...can't do.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> SchHGSD, I have a GSD and I have confused a Malinois for a GSD. IMO, there is no question as far as if they strongly resemble each other they do. They may not have the same genetic make up...I don't know-people here say that is not true. But they must look alike for some reason. Anyone care to explain to me why they look so similar other than it's a coincidence?


Probably the same reason Min-Pins and Dobies look alike, Pit Bulls and Presa Canarios look alike, Briards and Old English Sheepdogs look alike, Border Collies, Collies, and Shetland Sheepdogs look similar, Leonbergers and St. Bernards look similar. . .


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## wolfstraum

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So temperament testing can't be accurately done until the puppy is more like 4 months old? So then do many breeders keep the pup until this age to determine this? At what should the puppy be ready to go home with his new family, so that it can be determined first if he is the right match for them?


 
I think that almost all pups CAN be accurately assessed at 7-10 weeks....in the case Lisa was citing, she mentioned that the breeder was not as 'up' on this particular pedigree as they would normally be, and that pedigree did indicate (I have inferred this) that the character could change later, which the breeder recognized down the road....that this could happen to anyone, even someone very experienced illustrates what a crap shoot so many litters actually are when people are breeding just for titles or convenience.

Lee


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## Dainerra

Germanshepherdlova said:


> SchHGSD, I have a GSD and I have confused a Malinois for a GSD. IMO, there is no question as far as if they strongly resemble each other they do. They may not have the same genetic make up...I don't know-people here say that is not true. But they must look alike for some reason. Anyone care to explain to me why they look so similar other than it's a coincidence?


The similar appearance could be because they were bred as herding dogs, as was the GSD. Belgium and Germany I believe have similar terrain and climates, add that to the same job. Therefore, I would expect that there would be a certain amount of similarities.


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## Germanshepherdlova

:silly:I AM SO CONFUSED....MY HEAD IS LITERALLY SPINNING! I AM HAVING AN INFORMATION OVERLOAD. Will be back later after I take some time to process all this about dog genetics, dogs that look alike but aren't related? Puppies temperament not determined until 4 months, or puppies temperament determinable at about 2 months??? Oh and human and chimpanzee genetics.


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## Dainerra

I wasn't able to finish some replies this afternoon, since I was posting from my phone. I'm going to try to wrap up my thoughts on this topic.

1) do Sch dogs make good pets? As others said if you are active and not just looking for a lawn ornament, then a Sch line dog can be a great pet. There is no reason for the dog to not have an "off switch" as long as they are receiving appropriate exercise. Will EVERY pup be right for every "just pet" home? No, as not every pup will be right for a working home. It comes down though, more to the individual dog/family match than to pet vs working home. Some dogs will need a LOT of exercise, some will need less. One dog will burn out his energy happily playing in the back yard with his ball while another might need to really get his brain tired out more than his body.

2) what is a title? It is a piece of paper. I think there is more to be learned from how the dog got the title than from the paper itself. Some breeders have the experience and facilities to work their own dogs. Either way they do it, they are putting the effort into seeing what the dogs are made of. Other breeders, of course, are using dogs that are "real world" dogs - police, ranch, what have you. Again, though, the dog is tested and pushed to prove himself.

3) Should untitled dogs be bred? That depends. What is the reason the breeder feels that THIS dog must pass on his genes. Too often, breeders say "He is a good pet and all I want is to breed good pets." To me, good pets come from great dogs.


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## Greydusk

Most modern dog breeds come from a couple different "groups" of other breeds: there are the ancient breed groups (Middle Eastern sight hounds-saluki's etc, Asian spitz types, Arctic spitz types and Ancient African types. Most other modern breeds typically originate from European stock. A GSD and Malinois are more genetically similar to each other than they are to say an Afghan hound. They come from the same place, and have similar ancestors. 

As an aside: humans are about 99.9% genetically similar (nucleotide bases) to each other and share around 98% to 99% (depending on who you talk to and if non coding dna is included) with chimpanzees. 60% of human genes are also shared with chickens.


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## Whiteshepherds

Greydusk said:


> 60% of human genes are also shared with chickens.


That would explain my husband's nose then.


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## selzer

Ok on the shepherd-Mal tangent, isn't a Malinois the same as a Belgian Terverian (sp?), Belgian Sheep dog, and Belgian Laekenois? The only differences are in coat color and type? The Mal has the tight short coat, the terv is long coated, the sheep dog is black (longer coat) and the Laekenois is kind of wirey or curly? They are smaller than sheps. Trust me if you see a terv at a show they look NOTHING like a GSD. They are beautiful, yes, but they are also very different with a snipey collie type nose, and less room for the brain, and I dunno, the breed looks a lot different. Now it is possible that when they became AKC, we separated them into four different breed of dogs and the Malinois started to appear a little more shepherd like than the other three in the grouping. 

I think min pins and Dobes both have manchester terrier behind them. 

A Beuceron looks looks a little like a Doberman/Rottweiler cross, but I doubt if either is behind them.


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## Emoore

This thread has taken a seriously weird turn.


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## paulag1955

Emoore said:


> This thread has taken a seriously weird turn.


I know, right?


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## Germanshepherdlova

A weird but explainable turn. I asked about why only title dogs should be bred, and this evolved into people who don't breed titled dogs allegedly breeding dogs without GSD qualities but the looks of one, and then someone brought up King and Shiloh Shepherds and referred to them as Golden Retriever's in a GSD body or something of that nature, then I said that King and Shiloh are a different breed and that nobody complains about the Malanois and GSD similarities and then the topic of genetics came up. This should catch anybody up who just comes upon this thread and is like what the heck are they talking about!


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## paulag1955

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A weird but explainable turn. I asked about why only title dogs should be bred, and this evolved into people who don't breed titled dogs allegedly breeding dogs without GSD qualities but the looks of one, and then someone brought up King and Shiloh Shepherds and referred to them as Golden Retriever's in a GSD body or something of that nature, then I said that King and Shiloh are a different breed and that nobody complains about the Malanois and GSD similarities and then the topic of genetics came up. This should catch anybody up who just comes upon this thread and is like what the heck are they talking about!


Where is the "Like" button?


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## windwalker718

Ideally titling a dog will prove something about it's physical and mental abilities ... no it's not a guarantee that the pups will be of working quality... but it does hedge your bets in the favor of that. 
I do question the strict inflexible adherence to that policy though. What if one pup from a liltter gains a title, while a littermate is in a pet home which for reasons of owner health and finances does not have a title. If the second dog is physically superior, and of strong solid temperament why should the titled dog be used?? 
I think of my own situation in this... I have degeneration of the spine, with a herniation in my lower spine, and since getting my WL dog have a 2nd hermiation as well. I also have a torn and damaged rotator cuff (non surgical as I'd loose 70% of the range of motion--Ostiopath diagnosis, not just my own idea). Though Ikon was rated SG by Herr Scheld @23 months, and complimented by him on having an excellent angle to his shoulder, and a very strong correct head. 
So there's the ideal... which the future will rely on in large part with titles showing which dogs were titled in conformation and working abilities... the the present where knowledgeable people can see the qualities themselves. This also applies to dogs who may have injured themselves in some way that prevents training in Schutzhund.

So... Ideal is great, but there should be flexibility as each case is considered.


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## wolfstraum

windwalker718 said:


> Ideally titling a dog will prove something about it's physical and mental abilities ... no it's not a guarantee that the pups will be of working quality... but it does hedge your bets in the favor of that.
> I do question the strict inflexible adherence to that policy though. What if one pup from a liltter gains a title, while a littermate is in a pet home which for reasons of owner health and finances does not have a title. If the second dog is physically superior, and of strong solid temperament why should the titled dog be used??
> I think of my own situation in this... I have degeneration of the spine, with a herniation in my lower spine, and since getting my WL dog have a 2nd hermiation as well. I also have a torn and damaged rotator cuff (non surgical as I'd loose 70% of the range of motion--Ostiopath diagnosis, not just my own idea). Though Ikon was rated SG by Herr Scheld @23 months, and complimented by him on having an excellent angle to his shoulder, and a very strong correct head.
> So there's the ideal... which the future will rely on in large part with titles showing which dogs were titled in conformation and working abilities... the the present where knowledgeable people can see the qualities themselves. This also applies to dogs who may have injured themselves in some way that prevents training in Schutzhund.
> 
> So... Ideal is great, but there should be flexibility as each case is considered.


Because looks are not the whole package....neither is the perception of character when the dog is not tested ... there has to be demonstrated ability to work, under pressure, in several phases/sports and trainability. Sure, Ikon is drop dead gorgeous....but without some demonstration of working ability, character and resilience under pressure, there is nothing that will draw a good caliber female's owner to him .... sure, lots of pet people will want to use such a gorgeous dog to make puppies - but for what end???? to make pets? to collect stud fees??? I would love to see him used on a quality female - but unless he somehow is proven, it just is not feasible - people with good titled females are not going to use an un-credentialed male, and the puppy factory people who are willing to use an untitled, unworked dog are just breeding for income by making pretty pets.

Lee


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## onyx'girl

On the flipside of that, I know of a male, just two who is already a SchH 3....and probably is getting studded out as I type. Nothing against this dog, I'm sure he is gorgeous, and breedworthy, but really a dog at barely two is not even mature yet! 
Was the training/titles rushed so he could be used as stud for more $$?


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## paulag1955

onyx'girl said:


> On the flipside of that, I know of a male, just two who is already a SchH 3....and probably is getting studded out as I type. Nothing against this dog, I'm sure he is gorgeous, and breedworthy, but really a dog at barely two is not even mature yet!
> Was the training/titles rushed so he could be used as stud for more $$?


But it's not going to hurt him like it might hurt a bitch, right?


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## WarrantsWifey

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A weird but explainable turn. I asked about why only title dogs should be bred, and this evolved into people who don't breed titled dogs allegedly breeding dogs without GSD qualities but the looks of one, and then someone brought up King and Shiloh Shepherds and referred to them as Golden Retriever's in a GSD body or something of that nature, then I said that King and Shiloh are a different breed and that nobody complains about the Malanois and GSD similarities and then the topic of genetics came up. This should catch anybody up who just comes upon this thread and is like what the heck are they talking about!


Cliff notes version!


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## Mrs.K

paulag1955 said:


> But it's not going to hurt him like it might hurt a bitch, right?



Actually, quite a few young dogs get burned out because people put too much pressure and to much training on them while they didn't fully mature yet.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I see all these titles such as Sch3 and I have no idea what they mean. Someone please post me a link to a website that clearly explains all this jargon.


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## paulag1955

Mrs.K said:


> Actually, quite a few young dogs get burned out because people put too much pressure and to much training on them while they didn't fully mature yet.


I meant getting studded out.


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## onyx'girl

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I see all these titles such as Sch3 and I have no idea what they mean. Someone please post me a link to a website that clearly explains all this jargon.


United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Schutzhund Training


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## Germanshepherdlova

onyx'girl said:


> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Schutzhund Training


Thanks!


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## Germanshepherdlova

onyx'girl said:


> On the flipside of that, I know of a male, just two who is already a SchH 3....and probably is getting studded out as I type. Nothing against this dog, I'm sure he is gorgeous, and breedworthy, but really a dog at barely two is not even mature yet!
> Was the training/titles rushed so he could be used as stud for more $$?


This comment is not regarding him being bred so young, I am not a breeder and know nothing on the topic. Rather now that I have read up on what earning a SchH 3 Title entails, I must say  I am very impressed with this 2 year old dog.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I see all these titles such as Sch3 and I have no idea what they mean.


You're questioning whether we need them before you even know what they are? 

Back up, do a little research, learn what each title stands for, and what the dog must do to acheive each title. 

Then you can revisit the original question with a little deeper understanding.


----------



## onyx'girl

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This comment is not regarding him being bred so young, I am not a breeder and know nothing on the topic. Rather now that I have read up on what earning a SchH 3 Title entails, I must say  I am very impressed with this 2 year old dog.


The dog really has been pressured/rushed to perform all three phases at such a young age. I wonder what his scores were? 
There is so much that goes into training let alone titling. I would never put that type of pace on my dog. Mentally it is too much at this age, and will show if this dog continues to trial. Though I don't see many more trials his future....he's already 'titled' after all....


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> You're questioning whether we need them before you even know what they are?
> 
> Back up, do a little research, learn what each title stands for, and what the dog must do to acheive each title.
> 
> Then you can revisit the original question with a little deeper understanding.


I knew that dogs must pass some rigorous requirements to earn a title, I just didn't see the importance in a dog that was going to be a family dog needing any fancy titles. That's why my question was why should only titled GSD's be bred? I could also have asked, what's wrong with untitled GSD's being bred? Perhaps some people should educate themselves more regarding good and caring breeders that breed untitled dogs that are stable and good family dogs, before passing judgement one them and stereotyping them all as "irresponsible" breeders.


----------



## sagelfn

Freestep said:


> You're questioning whether we need them before you even know what they are?
> 
> Back up, do a little research, learn what each title stands for, and what the dog must do to acheive each title.
> 
> Then you can revisit the original question with a little deeper understanding.


Ditto. I was also pointed to another thread of yours (the OP) about BYBs needing to stop breeding... How do you define a BYB?


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

onyx'girl said:


> The dog really has been pressured/rushed to perform all three phases at such a young age. I wonder what his scores were?
> There is so much that goes into training let alone titling. I would never put that type of pace on my dog. Mentally it is too much at this age, and will show if this dog continues to trial. Though I don't see many more trials his future....he's already 'titled' after all....


At what age do most dogs achieve this title? (I am speaking of those dogs who are capable of it, not saying that most dogs can)


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Ditto. I was also pointed to another thread of yours (the OP) about BYBs needing to stop breeding... How do you define a BYB?


My dogs breeder. 

A person who doesn't title their dogs is not automatically a BYB, not at all, again-that is stereotyping. If you want me to tell you about my dogs breeder I will PM you, let me know.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Perhaps some people should educate themselves more regarding good and caring breeders that breed untitled dogs that are stable and good family dogs, before passing judgement one them and stereotyping them all as "irresponsible" breeders.


Not if we believe it's irresponsible to breed for the sole purpose of producing pets. 


ShepherdLova, I've been in and around this breed, primarily as a rescue worker, for 9 years now. I've fostered nearly 30 dogs and had triple that number pass through my hands as transports and short-term fosters. I've met good breeders, bad breeders, and so-so breeders. This is NOT a breed that is suitable to be bred only as pets. The traits that are bred into the very fabric of the breed from its foundations-- protectiveness, aggression, alertness, and aloofness--are not going away simply because someone is breeding pets. Rather, without working and trialing to keep those traits "pure," they degenerate quickly (within one or two generations) into fear of loud noises, shyness, nervousness, inappropriate aggression, fear of children, inability to settle, and fear biting. Those are what you get when you breed pet to pet without testing and trialing the dog to make sure that the traits locked deep into its DNA remain uncorrupted.


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## Sunstreaked

Emoore said:


> Not if we believe it's irresponsible to breed for the sole purpose of producing pets.


What do you think the percentage is of people who work their dogs, either through competition or natural (farm, etc.) means and those who have GSD as pets only?


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Not if we believe it's irresponsible to breed for the sole purpose of producing pets.


That's the whole thing...why do people think it's ok to snub other people, and determine who should own a GSD and for what purpose they will have them. As long as the dog is loved and well cared for there is no harm in it...and then to take it a step further if a breeder is producing healthy, stable dogs to call them irresponsible isn't right. I have listened to every argument produced here and thus far, I am not convinced at all. I personally don't breed and so it's not a personal issue. I just can't stand for people to be snobby to others every time a new person comes and says that they have a great dog that they think is breed worthy, and then are told only if he is titled and has a whole family tree of titled dogs is he breed worthy.

Keep in mind that answering a new person that is interested in breeding this way will probably deter them from this website where they may have learned something and run them straight into the open arms of a true BYB who will be more than happy to accommodate their dog with a truly less than standard, issue-ridden dog and then more damaged puppies are born. And consider that maybe their dog was stable and had a Dam and Sire that were stable and their lines also but had never been titled.


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## Emoore

Sunstreaked said:


> What do you think the percentage is of people who work their dogs, either through competition or natural (farm, etc.) means and those who have GSD as pets only?





Germanshepherdlova said:


> That's the whole thing...why do people think it's ok to snub other people, and determine who should own a GSD and for what purpose they will have them. As long as the dog is loved and well cared for there is no harm in it...and then to take it a step further if a breeder is producing healthy, stable dogs to call them irresponsible isn't right. I have listened to every argument produced here and thus far, I am not convinced at all. I personally don't breed and so it's not a personal issue. I just can't stand for people to be snobby to others every time a new person comes and says that they have a great dog that they think is breed worthy, and then are told only if he is titled and has a whole family tree of titled dogs is he breed worthy.


 
Getting a _leeetle_ tired of repeating myself in this thread. I don't have an issue with people owning pets. I have an issue with people _breeding_ pets, not because I'm an elitist snob who hates pets, but for the reasons I cited above. Suspicion, aggression, aloofness, and alertness are traits bred into the very fabric of this breed. They aren't going away just because people are breeding untitled pets. Instead, without the stress of testing and working to separate the strong from the weak, they degenerate within a _very_ few generations into the fear and nerve issues that plague this breed so badly.


----------



## onyx'girl

Germanshepherdlova said:


> That's the whole thing...why do people think it's ok to snub other people, and determine who should own a GSD and for what purpose they will have them. I just can't stand for people to be snobby to others every time a new person comes and says that they have a great dog that they think is breed worthy, and then are told only if he is titled and has a whole family tree of titled dogs is he breed worthy.


I try to tell new members to take their time and learn about the breed, and visit clubs/venues of the breed to see the dogs...then they can make the choice to support which breeder they choose. 
If I had a dog that I wanted to breed, I certainly would not go on a forum as a new member and solicit information on studding or breeding...it shows ignorance and that _*will*_ be judged. Ignorance has no excuse when it comes to breeding, IMO.


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## sagelfn

This is from your thread I mentioned 


> If there are any BYB's reading this-PLEASE STOP BREEDING DOGS WITHOUT MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY SOUND


Could you please explain how a breeder would make sure a dog is mentally sound (per breed standard) without working the dog?


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> This is from your thread I mentioned
> 
> 
> Could you please explain how a breeder would make sure a dog is mentally sound (per breed standard) without working the dog?


You actually think that only working GSD's can be proven mentally sound? A good breeder knows their dogs, and have been breeding them for many years, just as long as titled breeders have. They know their dogs. You are completely biased against them so you can spend all the time you want digging through my other post and trying to find my own words to twist against me but it will never work because I don't call a BYB the same thing that you do. I don't believe that only titled dogs are quality and even titled and working dogs are not without fault.


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## Sunstreaked

Emoore said:


> Getting a _leeetle_ tired of repeating myself in this thread. I don't have an issue with people owning pets. I have an issue with people _breeding_ pets, not because I'm an elitist snob who hates pets, but for the reasons I cited above. Suspicion, aggression, aloofness, and alertness are traits bred into the very fabric of this breed. They aren't going away just because people are breeding untitled pets. Instead, without the stress of testing and working to separate the strong from the weak, they degenerate within a _very_ few generations into the fear and nerve issues that plague this breed so badly.


Sorry - that was my first question on this thread 

I just wondered what the percentage might be of pups that "worked" vs those that were "pets".


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You actually think that only working GSD's can be proven mentally sound? A good breeder knows their dogs, and have been breeding them for many years, just as long as titled breeders have. They know their dogs. You are completely biased against them so you can spend all the time you want digging through my other post and trying to find my own words to twist against me but it will never work because I don't call a BYB the same thing that you do. I don't believe that only titled dogs are quality and even titled and working dogs are not without fault.


I didn't say anything about must have titles. I said working the dog as opposed to doing nothing with the dog. This has already been explained in detail in this thread.

If you do nothing with the dog how do you prove it is sound and temperament meets breed standard? How do these breeders know their dogs? what are they doing to know their dogs?


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## Germanshepherdlova

Sunstreaked said:


> Sorry - that was my first question on this thread
> 
> I just wondered what the percentage might be of pups that "worked" vs those that were "pets".


She doesn't have a clue. But think about all the people in your neighbor or city who own a GSD, are they titled or worked? Most are probably not, and the majority are probably pets.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> I didn't say anything about must have titles. I said working the dog as opposed to doing nothing with the dog. This has already been explained in detail in this thread.
> 
> If you do nothing with the dog how do you prove it is sound and temperament meets breed standard? How do these breeders know their dogs? what are they doing to know their dogs?


You didn't say anything about title's? That was what this thread is about, why do GSD's have to be titled to be bred? You are right though, we have went over this in great detail and will I buy a dog from a breeder who breeds titled dogs next time? I may or I may not. I certainly wouldn't go to a BYB but I would consider a responsible breeder that doesn't title their dogs as well.

So then according to you, I don't work my dog so I don't know him? I've had him for two years and I don't know his temperament? Don't know if he has fear issues? I don't know him from Adam according to you? That is silly. They know their dogs the same way I know mine, and believe me for better or worse....I know my boy.I am going to simply agree to disagree with you, and leave it at that.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You actually think that only working GSD's can be proven mentally sound? A good breeder knows their dogs, and have been breeding them for many years, just as long as titled breeders have. They know their dogs. .


Here's the thing-- you have this idea in your head that there's a breeder somewhere out there that knows their dogs without working them, just as well as a breeder who works their dogs knows theirs. But you don't know who those breeders are. You can't point to one. You have this idea in your head that titles don't prove a dog is breed-worthy, but you don't know what the major titles are. You-- like me-- own a dog that is fearful and noise-sensitive DUE TO BEING THE PRODUCT OF UNPROVEN BREEDING DOGS-- and yet you don't see the reason to prove breeding dogs. I don't know what else to say to you? Do you think that fearful, noise-sensitive fear-aggressive dogs just happen? Do you think they're bred on purpose? No, they come from good, decent, well-meaning people who own great pets and think they should reproduce.




Sunstreaked said:


> Sorry - that was my first question on this thread
> 
> I just wondered what the percentage might be of pups that "worked" vs those that were "pets".


Kinda depends because the line between pets and worked is blurred. My pup is a pet, but we go to agility class once a week and practice every day. Is he a working agility dog? Or is he a pet? When we earn a title in agility, what will he be then?


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I don't really think titled dogs and pets are an either or situation. Sasha is a pet 100%, but I hope to put titles on her. I would love to title her in as many levels of obedience as I can, and I would love to someday live close enough to a place that has agility training to get her involved in that. She can be both. 

I don't think that people that breed untitled pets are necessarily BYB's or irresponsible or w/e. They may have very sound temperament dogs that are only bred if they have the best of health clearances. If so, great. As a buyer I wouldn't buy from them because unless I knew them and their dogs really really well I wouldn't have any way of knowing that their dogs were the kind of dogs I would want to buy without them being titled. Not that titled= guaranteed great dog, but I feel I would be stacking the deck in my favor rather than gambling on someone who may or may not be being truthful.


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## Emoore

I used to feel the same way about breeding pets as you guys. You know what changed my mind? Owning a pet, the product of a pet breeder, who is afraid of: children, strangers, guns, fireworks, falling objects, men, and funny hats. I went out there and met a crap ton of dogs. I met pet dogs from pet breeders and pet dogs from working breeders and working dogs from working breeders. The difference between a dog that is the product of a sound, well-thought-out breeding program *centered around actually working the breeding stock*, and a dog that is the product of people breeding nice pets-- is night and day. That's the reason I spent over 3x more on my third dog than I did on my first. Not because I'm a snob who likes to look rich-- I drive a $3000 car and buy my clothes at Goodwill-- but because I saw the difference in the dogs. 

Unfortunately that's not something I can explain to you or describe to you. It's something you have to learn for yourself by spending time with a crap ton of dogs, and I really hope you give yourself the opportunity.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Here's the thing-- you have this idea in your head that there's a breeder somewhere out there that knows their dogs without working them, just as well as a breeder who works their dogs knows theirs. But you don't know who those breeders are. You can't point to one. You have this idea in your head that titles don't prove a dog is breed-worthy, but you don't know what the major titles are. You-- like me-- own a dog that is fearful and noise-sensitive DUE TO BEING THE PRODUCT OF UNPROVEN BREEDING DOGS-- and yet you don't see the reason to prove breeding dogs. I don't know what else to say to you? Do you think that fearful, noise-sensitive fear-aggressive dogs just happen? Do you think they're bred on purpose? No, they come from good, decent, well-meaning people who own great pets and think they should reproduce.
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda depends because the line between pets and worked is blurred. My pup is a pet, but we go to agility class once a week and practice every day. Is he a working agility dog? Or is he a pet? When we earn a title in agility, what will he be then?


For the last time MY DOG IS THE PRODUCT OF A BACKYARD BREEDER. That is why he is the way he is. I am not looking to add a dog to my family at this time BUT I do know a couple breeders if you must know, that breed healthy, stable dogs that aren't titled. I would never mention their name here on this forum, especially to you. Why do you want their name for anyways?


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## Sunstreaked

Emoore said:


> Kinda depends because the line between pets and worked is blurred. My pup is a pet, but we go to agility class once a week and practice every day. Is he a working agility dog? Or is he a pet? When we earn a title in agility, what will he be then?


I would think that working for a title means the dog is a "working" dog, not purely a pet. 

Imo, a pet is a dog you do a 1001+ things with for fun, with fun the only expected outcome, no titles, etc., even if agility and the like are part of the fun.


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunstreaked said:


> What do you think the percentage is of people who work their dogs, either through competition or natural (farm, etc.) means and those who have GSD as pets only?


I put up a poll Sun. It's not going to be very scientific but it's up if you want to go fill it out.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So then according to you, I don't work my dog so I don't know him? I've had him for two years and I don't know his temperament? Don't know if he has fear issues? I don't know him from Adam according to you? That is silly. They know their dogs the same way I know mine, and believe me for better or worse....I know my boy.I am going to simply agree to disagree with you, and leave it at that.


You may know your dog on a pet level of temperament but you cannot tell me that you can judge him based on correct GSD temperament?

You know your dog has fear issues. What else do you know? Would you say he is high in drive? What experience do you have in working with drives? How do you know you are accurately measuring his drive if this is the only dog you have experience with? Do you know what high drive really is?

How about drive threshold? Low or high? How do you know?

You can't judge courage because he is a fearful dog. You can't judge a lot of things because he is fearful and had/has aggression issues.

My dog has issues too. There is a lot of work I would LOVE to do with him but can't because of his issues. At home or a place he is comfortable his fear issues do not come up, you would not know he has issues. Put him in a strange place and right away I can see him change.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> I used to feel the same way about breeding pets as you guys. You know what changed my mind? Owning a pet, the product of a pet breeder, who is afraid of: children, strangers, guns, fireworks, falling objects, men, and funny hats. I went out there and met a crap ton of dogs. I met pet dogs from pet breeders and pet dogs from working breeders and working dogs from working breeders. The difference between a dog that is the product of a sound, well-thought-out breeding program *centered around actually working the breeding stock*, and a dog that is the product of people breeding nice pets-- is night and day. That's the reason I spent over 3x more on my third dog than I did on my first. Not because I'm a snob who likes to look rich-- I drive a $3000 car and buy my clothes at Goodwill-- but because I saw the difference in the dogs.
> 
> Unfortunately that's not something I can explain to you or describe to you. It's something you have to learn for yourself by spending time with a crap ton of dogs, and I really hope you give yourself the opportunity.


Good advice, I will not be getting another dog anytime soon but I am going to check out many different puppies-from both titled and untitled parents and see for myself if this is true. I will be posting my conclusions but it will be a while because I am going to take my time on this one. I love my dog but I do wish that he didn't have a fear of firecrackers and thunderstorms. Those are the only two things that he is afraid of, his other issues have been worked out. His aggression is also under control, he does respect us. But unless you have been through it, it is not possible to understand what it takes to help a dog who has these issues to overcome them. My boy is still a work in progress. But next time, next time-I want to make the right choice.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Why do you want their name for anyways?


Because I've never met one and I'd like to know who they are.


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## Whiteshepherds

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You didn't say anything about title's? That was what this thread is about, why do GSD's have to be titled to be bred? You are right though, we have went over this in great detail and will I buy a dog from a breeder who breeds titled dogs next time? I may or I may not. *I certainly wouldn't go to a BYB but I would consider a responsible breeder that doesn't title their dogs as well.*


Unless you know the breeder well or know several people that own one of their dogs, what will you base your decision on when picking out a new breeder assuming they don't title their dogs?


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## Germanshepherdlova

My dog has high drive. He will chase his ball, a squirrel, or a frisbee with extreme intensity and will plow through anything to succeed in catching it. He has no fear of anything when he is chasing. And whatever you do, don't try to run because he will chase you down. This is also why he loves to car and cat chase. At first I thought that he was misbehaving but when we had a trainer help us with his aggression issue, he told us that our dog had very high drive. So, I do know this now, but I didn't then but then again, I am not a dog breeder. Anyhow...I am not going to agree just because you think it is like this. I am going to take everything into consideration that I have heard here today, and I am going to go check things out for myself-with an open mind.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> But unless you have been through it, it is not possible to understand what it takes to help a dog who has these issues to overcome them. My boy is still a work in progress. But next time, next time-I want to make the right choice.


You are _exactly_ where I was about 6 or 7 years ago. Proud owner of a 2yo pet-bred GSD, working through his issues, loving him to death, and determined to make a better choice next time. Since joining this board in 2002, I've watched a bunch of people go through the exact same path. You'll have a lot of fun learning and I'm excited to watch. 

The best advice I can give you is to not learn everything on the internet. Go forth and meet dogs.


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## Jack's Dad

Germanshepherdlova. 

Did you read the thread started by Cliffson1 on iceberg breeders. That is one of the most educational threads I've seen. A number of breeders and others discuss breeding,genetics, temperament and believe me for us no nothings it is really educational and will probably answer a lot of questions.


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## Samba

Some may fell they know their dogs. How do they test for courage, fight drive, trainability, ability to handle pressure. I used to think I knew my dogs until I learned about testing and reading them. 

Sure someone may know they have a dog with no major problems, but this a proper GSD does not make.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Hunter Jack said:


> Germanshepherdlova.
> 
> Did you read the thread started by Cliffson1 on iceberg breeders. That is one of the most educational threads I've seen. A number of breeders and others discuss breeding,genetics, temperament and believe me for us no nothings it is really educational and will probably answer a lot of questions.


No I haven't. I will look it up. Thanks.


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## Liesje

Well, my mutt dog has plowed THROUGH a fence chasing prey but I describe him as having NO drive and being the laziest dog I know....so who is right? 

IMO, "drive" has to be evaluated with some pressure/frustration. It's not *whether* or not a dog will do things but through how much stress, at what threshold, for how long. Also the example given was prey drive, which to me is not as valuable as some of the other drives (defense, fight, food/hunt are drives that I look for and expect from a GSD). Then there is the point where the level of "drive" is really obsession and gets into the area of being not so appropriate for a clear-headed working dog.


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## VomBlack

Liesje said:


> Well, my mutt dog has plowed THROUGH a fence chasing prey but I describe him as having NO drive and being the laziest dog I know....so who is right?
> 
> IMO, "drive" has to be evaluated with some pressure/frustration. It's not *whether* or not a dog will do things but through how much stress, at what threshold, for how long. Also the example given was prey drive, which to me is not as valuable as some of the other drives (defense, fight, food/hunt are drives that I look for and expect from a GSD). Then there is the point where the level of "drive" is really obsession and gets into the area of being not so appropriate for a clear-headed working dog.


:thumbup: Very well said.

I think the big thing for me is how the dog acts when it's off of its own territory, and even off the field. Some dogs will chase a ball all day in their backyard, but take them to someplace new and you find their enthusiasm may go down a bit because they're not familiar with their surroundings.

For example, my dog Odin is a fantastic pet, absolutely fantastic around the house. I've had him a little over 2 years. How do I know how sound and stable he really is? I take him everywhere, train with different trainers.. did the CGC, did the TT in a completely strange place 3 hours away where nothing was familiar to him. We're going for our BH in October, and from there working on a SchH1. Do I still think I know everything about my dog? I think I have a good idea so far, but probably not. I'm going to keep working with him and finding out because not only do I learn more, but it's fun and the bond I build with my dog is better for it.

For me the titles are helpful as a starting point, you can assume that effort was put in on both the dog and handler's part, and the dog could theoretically keep it together enough to trial and pass. I remember talking with someone and they commented on a dog I knew, saying how he was great on the field but very unsure in other environments. Sure, you can title and do well, but I guess that's where potential buyers need to do their extra research when looking at a particular dog/breeder. There are some breeders on this board that I wouldn't hesitate to buy a dog from, even if the parents weren't titled because of the immense amount of information they have on the breed, their breeding programs, and the general direction they wish to take things.


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## cliffson1

To the OP, if you live in America you can breed any papered dog to any papered dog. If someone says that a dog should be titled, that is their opinion. You can accept their opinion or reject their opinion. Some opinions are educated opinions and bear fruit, some opinions are based on feelings, emotions, and lack of knowledge. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then its a good chance you should be listening objectively to learn, as opposed to debating issues you have little knowledge about.JMO
How can you question the value of a title when you don't know what a title entails???, but I find more silly the people who are debating the issue with a person that hasn't a clue about breeding???????
Where is the logic in this?????


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## gsdraven

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I just didn't see the importance in a dog that was going to be a family dog needing any fancy titles.


No one is saying your family pet needs titles or to be proven able to work. They are saying your family pet should not be bred. The breeding stock are the dogs the should be titled, showed or worked to prove that they possess the traits that German Shepherd Dogs should have. Even dogs with all sorts of titles or work experience will produce some dogs that are well suited as just pets. Just pets however are likely to produce even more just pets and water down the temperament and working ability over time.


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## holland

If I had the ability to train a stud to a Sch 3 at 2 and then stud him out-to make money-I would still think an easier get rich quick scheme would be to play the stock market-Is there anyone out there who got rich on a stud dog in the US


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## Germanshepherdlova

cliffson1 said:


> To the OP, if you live in America you can breed any papered dog to any papered dog. If someone says that a dog should be titled, that is their opinion. You can accept their opinion or reject their opinion. Some opinions are educated opinions and bear fruit, some opinions are based on feelings, emotions, and lack of knowledge. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then its a good chance you should be listening objectively to learn, as opposed to debating issues you have little knowledge about.JMO
> How can you question the value of a title when you don't know what a title entails???, but I find more silly the people who are debating the issue with a person that hasn't a clue about breeding???????
> Where is the logic in this?????


Because in your own words-This is America, and we have the freedom to debate any issue that we so desire.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Now do you have any knowledge to share or are you just commenting to criticize?


Lol @ asking if Cliff has any knowledge to share. Cliff has forgotten more about this breed than you and I put together will ever know. If we ask really nicely, he may share his opinion and if it differs from mine there's a good chance I'll change. 

There are about 10 people on this forum that, when they speak, I shut up and listen. Cliff is one of them.


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> How can you question the value of a title when you don't know what a title entails???, but I find more silly the people who are debating the issue with a person that hasn't a clue about breeding???????
> Where is the logic in this?????


:thumbup:


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Lol @ asking if Cliff has any knowledge to share. Cliff has forgotten more about this breed than you and I put together will ever know. If we ask really nicely, he may share his opinion and if it differs from mine there's a good chance I'll change.
> 
> There are about 10 people on this forum that, when they speak, I shut up and listen. Cliff is one of them.


Thanks Emoore, I know who he is now, didn't associate him with it at the beginning but he is the OP of the thread about Iceberg Breeders. You are right.


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## Liesje

holland said:


> If I had the ability to train a stud to a Sch 3 at 2 and then stud him out-to make money-I would still think an easier get rich quick scheme would be to play the stock market-Is there anyone out there who got rich on a stud dog in the US


Doubt it. Stud fees are pretty marginal when you compare to the overall cost of owning a dog, whelping a litter, training/titling dogs. There are so many studs, even the "top" VA studs. Plus if they want VA ratings they need progeny to show for it, and you're not going to get a lot of progeny by charging high stud fees. Some are even free. You can breed to a VA1 dog for $500 (puppies would probably sell for $1800-$3000 a piece)...I'm talking about a specific dog and a known price (maybe it has gone up or down now). This is just what I have observed of German show line breeding, not condoning it or justifying it. If one wants to make money, better off churning out puppies or charging up the wazoo to title or handle other people's dogs than just owning a stud dog.


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## Sunstreaked

This thread has made me think about titles a bit differently. A few people explained the concept that it's not *just* the title, it's the work that went into accomplishing it - and taking that threshold and using it as a measuring stick for the traits of a GSD and what should properly (according to the standard) be passed on. 

I also got a real-life lesson yesterday when a neighbor stated he wanted to stud out his Golden - with no consideration at all of the dog's past lineage, if he was the standard, etc., it was just because he is a "great dog" with a "good face". 

To those who are well-versed with titles and the like, please don't forget that some of us are walking into this cold, with no experience at all in that, so asking questions is a way of learning from those _with_ experience. 

It's like anything new - if there wasn't a personal reason to learn, then it's not necessarily something studied like those who are into it would do. For the information being relayed here (and in other threads) - thanks! :wub:


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


> *Lol @ asking if Cliff has any knowledge to share. Cliff has forgotten more about this breed than you and I put together will ever know.* If we ask really nicely, he may share his opinion and if it differs from mine there's a good chance I'll change.


How is every forum member supposed to automatically know who Cliff is or what his background is? 

No offense Emoore, but just because you trust Cliff or know who he is doesn't necessarily mean the OP should automatically believe everything he writes. It would make more sense to say Cliff has been breeding and working with GSD's for x amount of years...blah blah blah and that's why you trust what he says.

The fact that he's forgotten more than you know only means he's either very old, or you're very forgetful. 

Don't discredit the OP for questioning the person behind the posts. Like Cliff said, some opinions are based on knowledge and some are based on emotions. If she doesn't ask about his knowledge base, how does she know if he things he writes are truth, opinion or emotion?


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## Germanshepherdlova

Sunstreaked said:


> This thread has made me think about titles a bit differently. A few people explained the concept that it's not *just* the title, it's the work that went into accomplishing it - and taking that threshold and using it as a measuring stick for the traits of a GSD and what should properly (according to the standard) be passed on.
> 
> I also got a real-life lesson yesterday when a neighbor stated he wanted to stud out his Golden - with no consideration at all of the dog's past lineage, if he was the standard, etc., it was just because he is a "great dog" with a "good face".
> 
> To those who are well-versed with titles and the like, please don't forget that some of us are walking into this cold, with no experience at all in that, so asking questions is a way of learning from those _with_ experience.
> 
> It's like anything new - if there wasn't a personal reason to learn, then it's not necessarily something studied like those who are into it would do. For the information being relayed here (and in other threads) - thanks! :wub:


:thumbup:

I have learned from this thread as well, you have to weave through some comments on it...but knowledge has been shared here from people who know what they are talking about.

I am just glad that even though I have been approached many times about studding my dog because he is "A big beautiful Shepherd" even without any great knowledge-my common sense told me that he should not be bred. I have felt so bad for him because of the issues that he has and those that he has overcome-I have been so angry at his breeder for producing dogs with no regard to how they turn out. I wonder how many of his siblings have been put down because of aggression? How many have ended up in rescue? He was neutered earlier this year so from him there will be no more contribution to this. It just really upsets me. I can see how breeding titled dogs can help lessen the chances of this happening compared to someone who just breeds any two dogs together. But I do know of a couple breeders that don't breed titled dogs nor do they breed dogs with known issues. But I can understand the argument on behalf of breeding titled dogs. And it makes a lot of sense.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I have felt so bad for him because of the issues that he has and those that he has overcome-I have been so angry at his breeder for producing dogs with no regard to how they turn out. I wonder how many of his siblings have been put down because of aggression? How many have ended up in rescue?


Yeah, I went through a phase where I was shut-the-front-door MAD at Rocky's breeder for producing such fearful dogs. I love him so much, it just hurts to see him afraid of things that won't hurt him. It hurts to see him refuse to go outside for nearly 24 hours around the 4th of July and New Year's. And when I finally drag him out into the yard he just stands there shaking, too scared to do his business. I applaud you for not just shrugging your shoulders and saying, "hopefully I'll have better luck next time," but instead resolving to do some research to make sure you have better luck next time.


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## Sunstreaked

Germanshepherdlova said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I have learned from this thread as well, you have to weave through some comments on it...but knowledge has been shared here from people who know what they are talking about.
> 
> I am just glad that even though I have been approached many times about studding my dog because he is "A big beautiful Shepherd" even without any great knowledge-my common sense told me that he should not be bred. I have felt so bad for him because of the issues that he has and those that he has overcome-I have been so angry at his breeder for producing dogs with no regard to how they turn out. I wonder how many of his siblings have been put down because of aggression? How many have ended up in rescue? He was neutered earlier this year so from him there will be no more contribution to this. It just really upsets me. I can see how breeding titled dogs can help lessen the chances of this happening compared to someone who just breeds any two dogs together. But I do know of a couple breeders that don't breed titled dogs nor do they breed dogs with known issues. *But I can understand the argument on behalf of breeding titled dogs. And it makes a lot of sense.*


I'm learning about all this too, with no intention whatsoever to breed or stud, but just for information. 

A lot of times reading these threads makes me feel I'm at the 10th level of ignorance (with 10 being the worst ) as I realize how much I did *not* know about dogs. I think maybe, just maybe, I'm up to the 9th level now .

Before this, I honestly thought two purebred dogs could just produce pups (which is why I say I was ignorant). They can, of course, but there is so much more involved and I also have to express my admiration for those who dedicate their lives to this as I'm seeing more and more that it is what could be termed a vocation. It's so much more than just two "pretty dogs".


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## Emoore

Sunstreaked said:


> A lot of times reading these threads makes me feel I'm at the 10th level of ignorance (with 10 being the worst ) as I realize how much I did *not* know about dogs. I think maybe, just maybe, I'm up to the 9th level now .


Oh my lord go read the Iceberg Breeders thread. I feel like I'm drowning in knowledge over there. Every time I learn something new I realize there's a million other things to learn.


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## Liesje

Whiteshepherds said:


> How is every forum member supposed to automatically know who Cliff is or what his background is?
> 
> No offense Emoore, but just because you trust Cliff or know who he is doesn't necessarily mean the OP should automatically believe everything he writes. It would make more sense to say Cliff has been breeding and working with GSD's for x amount of years...blah blah blah and that's why you trust what he says.


That's not really the point here. The point is that it seems these days (this is just in general, not singling out anyone here) people want everything spoon fed. There are people on this forum that have dedicated decades or the majority of their lives to living with, working, trialing, breeding, and studying the history of these dogs. Then newbies come around and want to sit behind a computer screen and have someone else do all the "work" for them. I've seen threads on this very board that read like, "Hey I'm new, can someone tell me all they know about working line dogs?" Seriously? There is no substitute for putting in some face time, visiting clubs, watching trials, meeting as many dogs, handlers, and breeders as possible. Of course people that come on here and make sweeping generalizations while admittedly knowing little to nothing about the topic and then questioning those that have made it their life's passion are going to be met with some resistance. This is not about board popularity; whether this forum exists or not, there are people whose reputation already speaks for itself.

I had someone get on my case because before I got my first GSD I spent years researching breeders and rescues in Michigan and then this person starting bashing me because I wouldn't share all my research and tell them where to get a dog and where not to get a dog. For one thing, I may have specific taste in what I want in a dog, but more importantly, what value is it to that person for me to simply hand over a spreadsheet with yes/no? If someone does not yet understand enough about the breed to even begin evaluating breeders/dogs for themselves I feel like I'd be doing the breed a disservice by simply telling people where to get a dog. That, and I'm new to this myself.


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## Sunstreaked

Emoore said:


> Oh my lord go read the Iceberg Breeders thread. I feel like I'm drowning in knowledge over there. * Every time I learn something new I realize there's a million other things to learn.*



Yep, that sums it up for me, right there. 

I am reading that thread and "drowning in knowledge" is a pretty apt description!


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## Germanshepherdlova

Liesje said:


> That's not really the point here. The point is that it seems these days (this is just in general, not singling out anyone here) people want everything spoon fed. There are people on this forum that have dedicated decades or the majority of their lives to living with, working, trialing, breeding, and studying the history of these dogs. Then newbies come around and want to sit behind a computer screen and have someone else do all the "work" for them. I've seen threads on this very board that read like, "Hey I'm new, can someone tell me all they know about working line dogs?" Seriously? There is no substitute for putting in some face time, visiting clubs, watching trials, meeting as many dogs, handlers, and breeders as possible. Of course people that come on here and make sweeping generalizations while admittedly knowing little to nothing about the topic and then questioning those that have made it their life's passion are going to be met with some resistance. This is not about board popularity; whether this forum exists or not, there are people whose reputation already speaks for itself.
> 
> I had someone get on my case because before I got my first GSD I spent years researching breeders and rescues in Michigan and then this person starting bashing me because I wouldn't share all my research and tell them where to get a dog and where not to get a dog. For one thing, I may have specific taste in what I want in a dog, but more importantly, what value is it to that person for me to simply hand over a spreadsheet with yes/no? If someone does not yet understand enough about the breed to even begin evaluating breeders/dogs for themselves I feel like I'd be doing the breed a disservice by simply telling people where to get a dog. That, and I'm new to this myself.


Have you ever considered that perhaps the person that is new to all this is inquiring about something in hopes that some kind hearted person who truly cares for the GSD breed will point them in the right direction in which to begin their never ending quest to learn about this wonderful breed? Or perhaps, this person doesn't want to be a GSD expert but simply wants a little bit of information that will help them select the right breeder for their next dog. As was pointed out here many times, even titled dogs produce pups that won't qualify to be titled. Do you really want to jump all over someone who is in search of one of these puppies that isn't plagued with issues and just asked a simple question but you want to turn it into....study for 10 years and get your masters degree in GSD's and then go out and do an internship (working with rescues) before you come here asking me to give up any information to you-you intellectually lazy moocher of information.


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## selzer

I think the question: if I only want a household pet, why are titles is valid, even if you do not know what titles entail. Most any of us would have at one point asked that question. 

I think this thread has been informative. 

I do think there are people who know their dogs without titling them. Looking at the title is the easy road. (And titles aren't everything, and dogs can be titled who are not fit, but it will stack the deck in your favor to buy from titled parents or to be dead nuts sure that the breeder knows their dogs.)

If the dog does not have titles, it is a yellow flag, not necessarily slam the breaks on and thanks, but no thanks, but now you have to ask a LOT more questions. Questions it is good to know anyway, but essential without titles, here are some:

How long have you been owned GSDs?
How long have you been breeding GSDs?
Have you ever shown GSDs?
Who have you trained with, and what have you trained dogs in?
Have you titled dogs? 
In what venue? 
How many? 
How many litters have you had?
Tell me about your best litter.
How often do you have litters?
Tell me about a puppy that you sold that you are proud of.
Tell me about the people who have bought your puppies, what are they doing with them?
Tell me about the sire.
Tell me about the dam.
Is this a repeat mating?
What do you think this puppy is a good candidate for?
Why?

From a breeder's perspective, I let potential buyers talk and listen, I mostly listen. I pay out the rope and let them hang themselves. And I might say to them, well I do not think I have anything in this litter that would be a good match, but I will call you if you want if I have something in my next litter. 

If you ask good questions to the breeder, listen to the answers. Pay out the rope. If they have had many litters, and breeding for decades, they can still be bad or good. But it will take an awful lot of something to make me believe that someone on their third litter of puppies knows enough about temperament to breed without any title. 

I think a breeder CAN assess their own dogs, but they have to have a LOT of experience with dogs, breeding dogs, training and trialing dogs, maybe showing dog, and in all that experience, they should have some pretty accomplished puppies out there in the world doing these things with a different owner than the breeder. They may not like being interviewed, but they should understand it, with all the problems that have been created over the years. 

I do not think pets need to come out of dogs with SchHIIIs. But if a dog cannot manage to title in ANYTHING, then ya have to ask the question why. 

What does a Rally title tell you? That the dog will not freak out in a chaotic atmosphere, and and the owner was able to teach it to walk on a loose lead without a prong collar. I think that is something that a pet owner would like to have their dog be able to do. And higher titles will mean the dog can be trained to do various things off lead. I am not sold that a dog should be capable of herding sheep in order to breed dogs that will be a family pet. I am not sold that a dog should be certifiable in bite-work to be breed-worthy. But one of the judges that were talking about dogs the other night, how temperament was all important, said they would be easier on the judging on a night like this -- there was thundering and lighting. Because the barometer falls and dogs will do things they would never do otherwise. Now, I am pretty new in this game, but If I want to produce dogs that are suitable to live as pets in homes, I really do not want to use a dog that shows obvious stress during thunder storms, do I? If I wanted to improve the temperament of show dogs, and became a judge, I would pray for thunder storms to happen for that minute or two that I have to assess each dog. 

No breeder WANTS to produce dogs that need a thunder shirt during storms, or dogs that chase their tails obsessively, or dogs that need to be muzzled when they go out. But too many breeders ingore or excuse obvious signals that all is not right, because they have all their hopes on this young bitch that they raised, they do not want to drop her from the program, she is their whole program. 

Titles are well and good, but unless you have a breeder who will honestly assess how that dog went through their training, and honestly assess the dog, and be willing to make some hard choices, then their will be dogs that are seriously disappointing. There will be owners who have dogs that do not make good pets. And it does not matter what venue these titles come in, people can get dogs through that should never be bred.


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## selzer

I bought my first GSD with the intentions of breeding him from a yayhoo who raised the pups under a junk car. The dog was a disaster, and no, he was not a part of my breeding program. BUT I learned a ton from that dog. I am sorry that some of you have had such a bad experience with your first shepherd or with any shepherd that it spurred you to change lines, or research, or learn in order not to make another bad choice. But I am not sorry that the learning took place. 

I do not know how I feel about people wanting it all spoon fed to them. I was too dumb to even ask such a question before buying that dog. I guess it is better for people to get out there and say, show me, teach me, help me not to make a bad mistake, than for people to say, this dog is defective how do I go about suing the breeder.


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## holland

I think that coming on here and asking suggestions for a breeder is a lazy way to go about getting a dog-I'm sure it works-and I used the internet to a great deal for my last puppy. I am on my 4th GSD and I am not an expert-but what I want in a dog hasn't changed too much and I think however little knowledge someone has you know what is important in a dog for you and ultimately a buyer decides what is important. I think titles are important-to me it just means that someone spent time with their dog. I also think that just because someone on here is a name does not mean that you have to agree with everything that they say or that they know what is best for you and your dog-and this is not referring particularly to Cliff


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## Liesje

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Have you ever considered that perhaps the person that is new to all this is inquiring about something in hopes that some kind hearted person who truly cares for the GSD breed will point them in the right direction in which to begin their never ending quest to learn about this wonderful breed? Or perhaps, this person doesn't want to be a GSD expert but simply wants a little bit of information that will help them select the right breeder for their next dog. As was pointed out here many times, even titled dogs produce pups that won't qualify to be titled. Do you really want to jump all over someone who is in search of one of these puppies that isn't plagued with issues and just asked a simple question but you want to turn it into....study for 10 years and get your masters degree in GSD's and then go out and do an internship (working with rescues) before you come here asking me to give up any information to you-you intellectually lazy moocher of information.


Hey I'm in the same boat as you, I wasn't born into a household owning GSDs (or dogs period). My simple answer would be, don't waste your time online, go out, MEET and TRAIN as many GSDs as possible. I mean c'mon, what did people do before the Internetz...seems that the breed was better off then...

I've come to feel that it's not finding the right dog or breeder that is difficult but actually figuring out WHAT one wants that takes all the work. At least that has been my experience.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Liesje said:


> Hey I'm in the same boat as you, I wasn't born into a household owning GSDs (or dogs period). My simple answer would be, don't waste your time online, go out, MEET and TRAIN as many GSDs as possible. I mean c'mon, what did people do before the Internetz...seems that the breed was better off then...


I was raised with dogs. We always had them. Lot's of purebreds as well as muts, but our family nor anybody else I have met has ever been involved in all this titling business. Dogs aren't new to me...titling is.


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## Liesje

I brush my teeth twice a day for 26 years but it doesn't make me a dentist....

My point: If you want to say you "know" your dog (with respect to the _breed standard_), then you have to actually be doing something to prove it.


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## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> I bought my first GSD with the intentions of breeding him from a yayhoo who raised the pups under a junk car. The dog was a disaster, and no, he was not a part of my breeding program. BUT I learned a ton from that dog. I am sorry that some of you have had such a bad experience with your first shepherd or with any shepherd that it spurred you to change lines, or research, or learn in order not to make another bad choice. But I am not sorry that the learning took place.
> 
> I do not know how I feel about people wanting it all spoon fed to them. I was too dumb to even ask such a question before buying that dog. I guess it is better for people to get out there and say, show me, teach me, help me not to make a bad mistake, than for people to say, this dog is defective how do I go about suing the breeder.


:thumbup:
Or worse yet giving up on their dog.
Thanks for the other post as well, it was very informative. I even printed it to keep-great questions to keep in mind next time.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Liesje said:


> I brush my teeth twice a day for 26 years but it doesn't make me a dentist....
> 
> My point: If you want to say you "know" your dog (with respect to the _breed standard_), then you have to actually be doing something to prove it.


Interesting. I knew that my dog possessed qualities that should not be carried on, but a breeder who has been breeding for "26" years doesn't know when they have a dog with good qualities? 

I am going to get off this computer and go :doggieplayball: for a while. Hope everyone has a wonderful day!


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## gagsd

To the OP.... I have ALWAYS been involved with dogs. I started as a volunteer for the Humane Society in 5th grade, started working at a vet clinic in 7th, and went from there.

But the amount of information I have learned over the past 10 years is enormous.
I truly had no idea how much I did not know--and I was an educated "dog-person".

I have also been lucky to be around some really intelligent German Shepherd people.

edited to ad-
And yes, I know plenty of people who have been around dogs for years, and still don't seem to know a lot. But I also see people who come in with an attitude of "I know everything." 
A willingness to learn, and good teachers, are vital

I just do not see how anyone can truly understand the breed without getting out and training dogs.


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## stealthq

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Interesting. I knew that my dog possessed qualities that should not be carried on, but a breeder who has been breeding for "26" years doesn't know when they have a dog with good qualities?
> 
> I am going to get off this computer and go :doggieplayball: for a while. Hope everyone has a wonderful day!


I don't think that's the point. It isn't just about finding the good qualities, it's about ferreting out the bad ones, and having the skill to do it. 

To continue the dentist analogy, so you know that your teeth are white (you brush, floss) and they appear to be strong (haven't cracked yet), so you think your teeth are healthy. Now go to the dentist where they have advanced testing practices. He finds evidence of acid erosion, cavities below the gum line, hairline cracks that you couldn't have noticed, yet. Still think that your teeth are healthy?


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## Liesje

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Interesting. I knew that my dog possessed qualities that should not be carried on, but a breeder who has been breeding for "26" years doesn't know when they have a dog with good qualities?


I don't understand..... OK say I'm looking for a personal protection dog, how would I expect to find one from a breeder that has never done personal protection? Because their dog barks at the doorbell? Or, say I am a cop and I need a tracking/trailing dog...why would I go to a breeder that gives a blank stare when asked about "hunt drive"?

I'm not a breeder, and I know what qualities my dogs do and don't possess because I am constantly training and testing them. I'm not going to let my breeders off the hook (or I'll just go to a breeder whose dogs can show me what I need to see).

As someone said earlier in this thread, plenty of people have owned "German Shepherds" their entire life and have never owned a German Shepherd.


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## Deejays_Owner

On the other hand some very skilled trainers have trained dogs to National levels that should never be used for breeding also.

I agree with Cliff & agree with Mrs.K's post. :thumbup:



Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, a title says nothing about a dogs temperament. You wouldn't believe how many of the crappiest GSD's are titled and bred and produce yet again, more crappy dogs.
> 
> You wouldn't believe how many dogs are absolutely handler and dog aggressive, yet they are titled and get bred.
> 
> Dogs that you would NEVER wanted to see in a breeding program.
> 
> If you don't know the dog personally, never seen it work, never seen it interacting with other dogs and people, it's just a titled and says absolutely nothing about the dogs personality and/or temperament. All it says is that somebody has taken the time to train that dog.


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## cliffson1

My last on this issue, I have communicated with GSDlova and we're cool...lol. Often people on these threads lose sight of the goal...and for me its the breed. I don't post things to be liked, (personally I am kinda glad at some of the people, that don't care for me...lol), I don't post things to hurt people, I don't knock people's individual dogs, but I do post things that I have learned over the years in areas that I have first hand knowledge. Breeding, training, sport, police, obedience. I have limited knowledge of herding and conformation....hence I don't open my big mouth about them too often. Its better to be quiet and they don't know you don't know, than to open your mouth on what you don't know and look like a fool. 
I love to help people if I can. I do not subscribe to many of today's practices, and have given my in depth reasons or explanations for such. If disussing something with someone, if they take a position I would like to see their basis for it so that I may learn and others also. The catty remarks, or emotional responses lacking relevance I do not see as aiding in our quest to exhange info on this breed. 
I can be disagreed with and definitely learn from others, but most importantly I know when to listen and to change my thinking when somebody makes more sense than I do. Its about what is best for the breed as it was envisioned to be...no more...no less.


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## Germanshepherdlova

cliffson1 said:


> My last on this issue, I have communicated with GSDlova and we're cool...lol. Often people on these threads lose sight of the goal...and for me its the breed. I don't post things to be liked, (personally I am kinda glad at some of the people, that don't care for me...lol), I don't post things to hurt people, I don't knock people's individual dogs, but I do post things that I have learned over the years in areas that I have first hand knowledge. Breeding, training, sport, police, obedience. I have limited knowledge of herding and conformation....hence I don't open my big mouth about them too often. Its better to be quiet and they don't know you don't know, than to open your mouth on what you don't know and look like a fool.
> I love to help people if I can. I do not subscribe to many of today's practices, and have given my in depth reasons or explanations for such. If disussing something with someone, if they take a position I would like to see their basis for it so that I may learn and others also. The catty remarks, or emotional responses lacking relevance I do not see as aiding in our quest to exhange info on this breed.
> I can be disagreed with and definitely learn from others, but most importantly I know when to listen and to change my thinking when somebody makes more sense than I do. Its about what is best for the breed as it was envisioned to be...no more...no less.


:thumbup:


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## selzer

There is something called "kennel blindness" that effects breeders. Oh, I think it effects all dog owners to a point. I can have a litter of ten puppies, and all ten of the owners will tell me that theirs is the best. So to a point all of us choose to see what we want, and choose to not see what we do not want. 

Pet owners are guilty of this, they ignore warning behaviors until the dog bites someone and then they realize the behaviors were there all along, even getting worse, but they did not realize or notice until something drastic happens.

Because breeders have so many reasons to WANT their dogs to be awesome, I think they are even more prone to Kennel Blindness. Some see markers of poor temperament and make nothing of them, or make excuses for the; others do not see markers that are evident to a third person, they do not see because they do not WANT to see them. 

And perhaps some breeders inadvertantly avoid situations that might point out their dog's character flaws. Possibly. Remember, the breeder bought this dog or raised up this dog from a breeding that he approved of, perhaps chosen and seriously considered, and if there is a temperament problem it means that he was not careful enough, did not choose well enough, etc. 

Having a third party watch the dog work, go over the dog, whatever can give good incite on whether a dog is breedworthy whether or not the breeder has a ton of experience. It would be like judging a poetry contest that you son contributed to. Hard to do.

ETA: if you have sire or worst, dam, that has a weakness in character, a bit of nervousness, some instability in areas, and you breed her, some of her pups will likely be worse than she is, and in pet homes, those dogs can be a big problem. So the breeder, not seeing this, or masking it by providing a very stable environment, will not get improvement in the puppies.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Do you really want to jump all over someone who is in search of one of these puppies that isn't plagued with issues and just asked a simple question but you want to turn it into....study for 10 years and get your masters degree in GSD's and then go out and do an internship (working with rescues) before you come here asking me to give up any information to you-you intellectually lazy moocher of information.


I know, right? 

I think it's unfair to say the newbie just wants to be "spoon fed" when they ask for information and truly want to be educated. Why do we look down our nose at those who are "uneducated" or "ignorant", yet become offended when they try to glean information?

How does one know where to start with the mountains of information, disinformation, and differing opinions on the Internet and elsewhere? The answer is, you join a training club, get to know other breeders and trainers, find a mentor, and train your own dog and learn through hands-on experience. And ask questions on message boards so that people who are willing to educate can help. 

I understand that those who have gained a wealth of knowledge through years of study and hands-on experience may still not want to be put into a position of mentor. That is fine; you can simply choose not to participate on message boards or the threads where people ask questions. But I think it's bewildering to newbies when the message is "you need to be educated, but don't expect us to educate you." It leaves them with a feeling like you had when looking for your first job; no one will hire you without experience, yet how are you supposed to get any experience until someone hires you?


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## Liesje

Freestep said:


> It leaves them with a feeling like you had when looking for your first job; no one will hire you without experience, yet how are you supposed to get any experience until someone hires you?


LOL exactly!

But I don't think that's always a bad thing. I think the breed is needing more people with passion and a thicker skin.

And it's not just what is being asked, but how it is being framed.


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## Vandal

I used to manage a rather large retail establishment. The inexperienced people I hired needed to show some initiative to learn the job without always asking someone to tell them exactly what to do. We just didn't have time for that but also, you have to learn by seeing and doing, not just listening. Ever hear the term "show and tell"? It isn't "tell and tell" , you have to see it with your own eyes. You have to go watch the training, observe the dogs and so on, to fully appreciate what people are telling you, either here or someplace else. That’s how I learned. You read or are told the theory and then you must see it applied or you will NEVER understand it. At some point, you try to apply it yourself, and that's when you will really start to understand. Usually, at that point, you realize how much of what you were being told you didn't understand. 

That's the best I can do. Read what is here but you simply must do the rest or you are wasting your time. You have to see the dogs, understand, ( by seeing), how they react in certain situations and during the training, to fully "get it".


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## onyx'girl

When Onyx came into my life as a surprise, I wasn't really into training dogs....I was into parrots and my kids. I have had dogs all my life, and went thru general pet obedience class with them.
The first thing I asked the "breeder" was about health tests(there were none)...then about training, what she did to show her female was of good temperament as far as reproducing. She showed me 4-H trophies, blue ribbons that her 12 yr old daughter earned and said her dogs were herding workers on a cattle farm in Indiana. I still had reservations, but couldn't say no to my husbands surprise.
Even if we are not knowledgable on the breed when we start out, common sense should rule. 

In regards to Annes previous post; I was hired into an exotic bird breeding facility with little knowledge of parrots. I made it my goal to learn, read as much as possible so I could be a better employee and help new owners keep their pets as healthy and happy as possible. 
After 6 years, I knew so much, but there was(is) so much more to learn about the species. I was lucky to be mentored by a few that were renowned in the business.

If you have a passion for anything, your heart will help you keep the focus. And that sometimes leads to obsessive learning, which really isn't a bad thing!


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## Germanshepherdlova

onyx'girl said:


> When Onyx came into my life as a surprise, I wasn't really into training dogs....I was into parrots and my kids. I have had dogs all my life, and went thru general pet obedience class with them.
> The first thing I asked the "breeder" was about health tests(there were none)...then about training, what she did to show her female was of good temperament as far as reproducing. She showed me 4-H trophies, blue ribbons that her 12 yr old daughter earned and said her dogs were herding workers on a cattle farm in Indiana. I still had reservations, but couldn't say no to my husbands surprise.
> Even if we are not knowledgable on the breed when we start out, common sense should rule.
> 
> In regards to Annes previous post; I was hired into an exotic bird breeding facility with little knowledge of parrots. I made it my goal to learn, read as much as possible so I could be a better employee and help new owners keep their pets as healthy and happy as possible.
> After 6 years, I knew so much, but there was(is) so much more to learn about the species. I was lucky to be mentored by a few that were renowned in the business.
> 
> If you have a passion for anything, your heart will help you keep the focus. And that sometimes leads to obsessive learning, which really isn't a bad thing!


Well....I am a President's list college student, but you are much smarter than I am. Because I was not born knowing about asking breeders about pet obedience classes and health tests. She said the dog was healthy, vet checked, first shots, AKC papers, good temperament and I took her word for it. She was actually much better than the other ad in the newspaper for GSD puppies that said only GSD puppies 6 weeks old $500 firm. It is funny looking back on it because in my ignorance back then I actually thought she must be a great breeder if she took the puppies to the vet and got their first shots too.

I know it must be very difficult for people with so much superior natural or learned intelligence to comprehend that some mortals are very gullible, and raised to think that a dog was nothing more than an animal that you feed everyday and leave in the backyard all the time-and then as an adult says-Oh I am going to get a puppy- and remember that wonderful GSD that my folks had when I was growing up. Then pick up the newspaper and go out and buy their GSD puppy and fall in love with him issues and all. Then realizes that her parents really lucked out with that GSD because it was not fearful or aggressive. Then proceeds to finds this website to connect with other people who love this breed and begins to learn so much about titles and breeders, show dogs, Schitzhund, and so on. And then is told that she had no common sense when she selected her puppy. Or maybe I am just an idiot, a moron, or oh-yeah....an intellectually lazy moocher.


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## Liesje

The initial question was about breeding, not dogs from newspaper ads or whatever. Most of the responses have been framed that way, what dogs to BREED, not whether or not people's dogs are crappy pets. What do you want people to say? Yes you should breed your pet dog that you imply has issues because no one told you not to?

Owning and training these dogs is not rocket science. It's not that people don't want to help but you just can't get the help here on a forum reading a computer screen, that is what people don't seem to understand. Plus the way the questions are framed gets peoples' back up. How many ways are there to say it..... go out and work with the dogs, that is the answer. Then you know what to breed and why, what breeder to buy from and why, what dogs embody the standard and why....


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## cliffson1

People are misinterpreting what Lies was saying. It takes commitment to learn the indepth things about the breed. That commitment is both on and off the internet. Nobody minds helping people with finding a breeder or answering a question. But what upsets a lot of mentors is people who say they want to learn and then don't listen to the people they can learn from. Somebody will ask you how to do something, you tell them, and then they challenge you on what you said. Heck, if you know enough to challenge my answer you know enough to not ask me in the first place. Some things about the breed cannot be explaine in depth; because who you are talking to doesn't have the requisite foundation knowledge to correctly interpret what you are explaining. Happens to me all the time, then they try to say nobody wants to help the newbie????If they would shuddup, listen, and WAIT, the indepth stuff will come to them when they are ready to assimilate the knowledge. That will come to THOSE that show commitment, but not to internet only seekers. So the basic questions for the owner or pet trainer, nobody has a problem with helping, the indepth stuff, you will only acquire when you are ready and its obvious to some of us by the question you ask that YOU are NOT ready.JMO
I wrote this before I saw Lies's above post, but we're on the same page....amazin ain't it...lol


----------



## Liesje

cliffson1 said:


> People are misinterpreting what Lies was saying. It takes commitment to learn the indepth things about the breed. That commitment is both on and off the internet. Nobody minds helping people with finding a breeder or answering a question. But what upsets a lot of mentors is people who say they want to learn and then don't listen to the people they can learn from. Somebody will ask you how to do something, you tell them, and then they challenge you on what you said.


Exactly! Like the tone of this thread kind of puts people's backs up when there are people spend SO much time and energy with the dogs and this breed, have sacrificed so much in their lives to do so, and then people say it doesn't matter, it doesn't prove a thing, they don't care, only to find out they weren't even aware of what the training entails or what the value might be. To me that doesn't really show a deep interest in learning or passion for the breed. I'm not saying SchH titles are the end-all and be-all but it was after all developed as the BREED test for the German Shepherd dog, understanding the history and the basic concepts is important before one can make their own evaluation/interpretation. These days, it is what you make of it, but a lot of people DO take it seriously and DO work very hard with their dogs in order to learn as much about their dogs and have a fulfilling relationship with their dogs.

It is not just this thread either. I get all the e-mails inquiring about our training club and honestly for every 50 e-mails we get, we get maybe *one* person that actually shows up at the club with their dog and sticks around for more than an hour. We are not in the business of e-mailing dog training and behavior advice, but people who will insist up and down they want to join the club, they're ready to learn, ready to train...we're lucky to keep them for a month, if they even show up in the first place. That goes for SchH club, agility/rally-obedience club, SDA club... So I'll admit, I am more on the defensive than most, but it is because lately I feel like I have put so much time (and not just face time, but going home and mulling over people/dogs, what can I think of to try, how can we help them) I am sometimes too exhausted to work with my own dogs and then people just bail on you the second it gets a bit challenging or you have to be honest with them.


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## GSD07

Liesje said:


> We are not in the business of e-mailing dog training and behavior advice, but people who will insist up and down they want to join the club, they're ready to learn, ready to train...we're lucky to keep them for a month, if they even show up in the first place. That goes for SchH club, agility/rally-obedience club, SDA club...


 Lies, I agree with your post but I had to comment on this. 

This is actually part of the required learning process for the people who email you/show up for a few times/gone and never said Good bye. You may decide to withdraw and not offer any advice, close your club for newcomers but you can't be upset with people that realized that SchH, ob, agility is not for them, or that they are not comfortable with you/your helpers/your training approach etc. You offer a public service, you ask for a compensation, or you simply let people step on their own rakes and devote your time to your dogs. I would not disturb my emotional balance for a stranger, it has to be a close friend or a family.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Well, I am just want to clarify that I am learning now about the breed, and by the time I am ready for my next one-I will know what I am doing. I am not looking to be an expert dog trainer or anything else. I am glad that I started this thread because I have met some very nice and helpful people. To those that do not want to help others but do like to spend time commenting and judging others intentions and such....I will not respond to you at all any further since I don't want to be mistaken for trying to freeload info. 

To those of you who I have spoken to privately as well as helpful commenters...thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction and doing it with a non judgmental attitude which is such an important factor when we want to influence or convince someone of something. I have learned what I needed to from this thread, so I am done commenting here.


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## JakodaCD OA

just want to add to this, (again great thread imho),,,there is always something 'new' to learn whether one has been in the breed for 50 years or 50 days. Learning about dogs/genetics/what makes them tick, is something that is never ending. 

You can read books, watch videos, talk to as many knowledgeable people as you can, but the reality is, getting out there, as a couple posters suggested, see the dogs, go to clubs, go to shows, is just as important.


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## GSDElsa

Whiteshepherds said:


> The fact that he's forgotten more than you know only means he's either very old, or you're very forgetful.


:rofl: No, it means that he's devoted his entire adult life to enhancing this breed. Age nor forgetfulness have ANYTHING to do with it.


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## carmspack

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Exactly, and GSD's look like Malinois don't they but they are a little smaller, a little quicker-should Malinois owners say the same about GSD's? That people want a tamer version of a Malinois so they have a GSD. Of course not, and they are not the same dog. They are a different breed. And nobody says anything about that.


 
I am loving this thread

Don't understand the point being made here using Malinois. 

A GSD is not a tamer version of a Malinois. Even in the von Stephanitz book, in reference to the question about whether there is benefit in crossing the two breeds, Mal X GSD , he emphatically says NO . The quality of the GSD would be lost . The GSD has many layers and nuances . The Malinois , said he, is basically a "jumping dog" and a "biting dog" . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## paulag1955

Of course, von Stephanitz may have been biased.


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## cliffson1

And knowledgable


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## paulag1955

cliffson1 said:


> And knowledgable


Of course. I meant biased with a "wink-wink."


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## Germanshepherdlova

carmspack said:


> I am loving this thread
> 
> Don't understand the point being made here using Malinois.
> 
> A GSD is not a tamer version of a Malinois. Even in the von Stephanitz book, in reference to the question about whether there is benefit in crossing the two breeds, Mal X GSD , he emphatically says NO . The quality of the GSD would be lost . The GSD has many layers and nuances . The Malinois , said he, is basically a "jumping dog" and a "biting dog" .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


The AKC description of the Malinois states that they are very intelligent, obedient, and protective of their owners but not overly aggressive. With all due respect Carmen, do you agree that the Malinois is basically only good for jumping and biting?


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## selzer

I have heard that a lot of police officers have come back to shepherds after having a malinois, because they feel the overall dog is better. Of course this is the kind of thing a shepherd owner would hear once and latch onto like it is gospel.


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## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> I have heard that a lot of police officers have come back to shepherds after having a malinois, because they feel the overall dog is better. Of course this is the kind of thing a shepherd owner would hear once and latch onto like it is gospel.


The feature article in this months Dog World is _Dogs In The Military_. 

Interesting article about the 341st Training Squadron at Lackland. (average population 800 dogs) The article says the Air Force now has it's own breeding program for Belgian Malinois.


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## paulag1955

selzer said:


> I have heard that a lot of police officers have come back to shepherds after having a malinois, because they feel the overall dog is better. Of course this is the kind of thing a shepherd owner would hear once and latch onto like it is gospel.


Of course!


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## Mrs.K

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The AKC description of the Malinois states that they are very intelligent, obedient, and protective of their owners but not overly aggressive. With all due respect Carmen, do you agree that the Malinois is basically only good for jumping and biting?


Not overly aggressive? There are malinois out there that the average person couldn't handle if they wanted to. Just like with the GSD's there are breeders that take the breed to a whole new level. And that breed is naturally aggressive whether the AKC wants to admit it or not. Just like the GSD that breed needs a certain level of aggression to do the job they are doing and to be good at what they are doing.


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## Jack's Dad

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The AKC description of the Malinois states that they are very intelligent, obedient, and protective of their owners but not overly aggressive. With all due respect Carmen, do you agree that the Malinois is basically only good for jumping and biting?


Did you take my suggestion and read Iceberg Breeders? With all due respect I don't think you are going to win a discussion with Carmen on GSD or Malinois breeds or breeding.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Did you take my suggestion and read Iceberg Breeders? With all due respect I don't think you are going to win a discussion with Carmen on GSD or Malinois breeds or breeding.


I don't really get the attitude here. Carmen and Cliff and some of the others have been on the board a good while and for people who read in the breeding sections, they come from a place of experience, at least in those lines they use and follow. 

If GermanShepherdLova was saying that she intended to breed her untitled dog, I guess I could maybe understand coming down hard on her, pushing her to do her own research and suggesting that she is not in the same league with these others, should not argue with them about topics they have the superior knowledge in, etc. 

But I understand that she might be in the market of buying a puppy, not breeding her dog. And she does not want to make a similar mistake when she is ready to buy the new pup because she is having issues with the other one. 

And I can understand people not wanting to answer the same question over and over again, burned out by newbies asking questions that were asked a week ago or two weeks ago, and going into long dissertations. But instead of singling out one thread, and one person, who is NOT talking about BREEDING their dog, why not just stop posting to the thread if it is burning you out. I don't understand why novices cannot hold conversations with experienced people -- who better? 

I guess I am missing something here. Why should people not ask questions and try to get information from many different sources. We should not guard our knowledge. There are not that many new people and young people who are willing to learn and have a passion for the breed that we should be alienating them. I think the people who want to make a difference for good in this breed have to be pretty free with their knowledge and willing to teach.


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## paulag1955

Selzer, thank you, well said.


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## Emoore

I think GSDLova is asking intelligent questions. Not the same as the people who come on here and say, "tell me everything about all the different lines," and much MUCH better than the ones that say "I looked at some pictures on the internet and decided an EastGermanDDRMale / BlackandRedWestGermanMale is right for me.


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## Jack's Dad

Selzer. 

I don't have an attitude toward Germanshpherdlova. She asked about breeding titled vs untitled dogs and it has been thoroughly discussed by A whole lot of people Cliff, Carmen, Vandal, yourself and many others who know a whole lot more than I do. It just seemed to me her response to Carmen was starting a whole new thing about Malinois. I don't know how anyone could have absorbed all that was covered about the GSD much less worry about another breed but she or anyone else is certainly allowed to keep asking questions.


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## cliffson1

I just wrote a post on my having no problem with answering questions for newbies.....I also tried to differentiate the type questions and answers. I only post in a few sections of this board, some of you post in almost every section of the board. I only post in this section primarily because I don't want to give out information that I'm not 99% sure is valid. So I don't go to conformation sections or rally sections, or warm and fuzzy sections and do a lot of speculation or passing of half truths, or something I heard that I really don't have a clue if its valid. I guess I'm old school, (like older journalist that wouldn't print an article unless it was verified by two sources....nowdays people hear third hand and pass it along like its gospel, and another generation of GS people grew up believing total mistruths), because a forum like this is so widespread that it is important for accurate info to be dispersed. There are people who like the National Inquirer type dialogue about the breed....fine....but can't it stay in chats, brags, misc, etc so as to not be mistaken by the newbies for gospel.??
Again, maybe my old school doesn't fit in this new age...lol. I personally think that a lot of newbies thirst for the information that is gleaned from accurate sources, I also think that a lot of intermediate people resent some of this information because it contradicts what they have been saying for years, but when asked to present empirical data to support it they become defensive or nasty. There are many people on this board who know more than I and don't even bother to answer most of these queries or correct the misinformation that is posted. Maybe they are a lot smarter than I am..lol
Anyway, I understand the resentment of some, and I think I will agree with others that we should spread out the sources of info to the newbies and let them get a trunkfull of info and find a way to sort it out. I'm sure that won't hurt Carmen, Cliff, and others who try to stay factual. (Actually, I can now not answer the countless pm's sent and send them back to the board for them to get a broader perspective. Actually, less posting by me may very well open up more for others. 
So I think I understand the concern of others, and GLADLY will fall back and let others step up and provide the information right or wrong that makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy. 
Boy, I wish I had instructors like this when I went to school, I would have loved school....lol.


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## Jessiewessie99

I just want to say thank you to everyone who provided all the info in this thread!


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## Sunstreaked

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I just want to say thank you to everyone who provided all the info in this thread!



Add me to the long list of people saying thanks! 

For those of you who've been in this for a long time or a life time, please hold the thought in the back of your head that a lot of people are probably reading the information you're providing. I lurked here for quite a while before joining and read countless threads. What I've read has really altered my thoughts about GSD and dogs in general, physical and mental training, and how to be a better owner. I'm not as vocal as some here, but that doesn't mean the info isn't appreciated!


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## Liesje

Why does it have to be GSD vs. Malinois? I don't know that about Mals but there are a lot of similarities, especially when it comes to police and military type work. I can see where a smaller dog with less coat might be preferred, especially in such hot, arid places as where we are currently deploying a lot of military. I think many departments/units just have a preferred breed and I see nothing wrong with that, they don't have to justify it to me. If it works, it works. I visit another forum that posts new pictures of working military dogs every day and you can see patterns - one unit will be all Mals, one all Labs, one all GSDs. Does it matter if another breed is "better" if all their experience is working with a different breed and those lines?

This is a GSD board, why not look at our breed and the pros and cons rather than try to constantly compare to Malinois?


----------



## Doc

I'm old-school, I don't post because it is next to impossible to have a honest, open dialog without someone interjecting half-truths that they can not support with valid evidence. I remember what the German shepherd use to be as does Carmen, Vandel, Cliff and the other "old-timers" that have spent their entire lives with this breed.


----------



## Sunstreaked

Doc said:


> I'm old-school, I don't post because it is next to impossible to have a honest, open dialog without someone interjecting half-truths that they can not support with valid evidence. I remember what the German shepherd use to be as does Carmen, Vandel, Cliff and the other "old-timers" that have spent their entire lives with this breed.


Wouldn't it make sense to educate the next generation of GSD owners? With luck, that good information then gets passed to the generation following them and so on. 

I've used the word "ignorance" before and I meant it in the sense of uninformed, not stupid. We all have areas of expertise, either by choice or necessity. I could probably tell members more about SEO and SERP than they would ever want to know and they would be "ignorant" about those - even though it affects everything they access on the internet through a search engine . 

I may never own a purebred GSD, but my GSD mix still needs me to be the best owner I can be and get the tools, i.e., information, to do so. 

Sometimes arguments come from that "ignorance" - what better way to educate than to provide good information?


----------



## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> I just wrote a post on my having no problem with answering questions for newbies.....I also tried to differentiate the type questions and answers. I only post in a few sections of this board, some of you post in almost every section of the board. I only post in this section primarily because I don't want to give out information that I'm not 99% sure is valid. So I don't go to conformation sections or rally sections, or warm and fuzzy sections and do a lot of speculation or passing of half truths, or something I heard that I really don't have a clue if its valid. I guess I'm old school, (like older journalist that wouldn't print an article unless it was verified by two sources....nowdays people hear third hand and pass it along like its gospel, and another generation of GS people grew up believing total mistruths), because a forum like this is so widespread that it is important for accurate info to be dispersed. There are people who like the National Inquirer type dialogue about the breed....fine....but can't it stay in chats, brags, misc, etc so as to not be mistaken by the newbies for gospel.??
> Again, maybe my old school doesn't fit in this new age...lol. I personally think that a lot of newbies thirst for the information that is gleaned from accurate sources, I also think that a lot of intermediate people resent some of this information because it contradicts what they have been saying for years, but when asked to present empirical data to support it they become defensive or nasty. There are many people on this board who know more than I and don't even bother to answer most of these queries or correct the misinformation that is posted. Maybe they are a lot smarter than I am..lol
> Anyway, I understand the resentment of some, and I think I will agree with others that we should spread out the sources of info to the newbies and let them get a trunkfull of info and find a way to sort it out. I'm sure that won't hurt Carmen, Cliff, and others who try to stay factual. (Actually, I can now not answer the countless pm's sent and send them back to the board for them to get a broader perspective. Actually, less posting by me may very well open up more for others.
> So I think I understand the concern of others, and GLADLY will fall back and let others step up and provide the information right or wrong that makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy.
> Boy, I wish I had instructors like this when I went to school, I would have loved school....lol.


I hope that you do not think my post was directed against you in any way. I think that you have always shared a lot of good information, and I appreciate that. I am certainly not suggesting you take a back seat. 

When people are totally burned out, it maybe does make sense to make an adjustment.


----------



## selzer

I am worried too about the next generation of dog-people. We hear leave it to the experts so much it sounds like a broken record. We here things like buyers should not need to do all the research on pedigrees and lines, and dogs, and training, and genetics, they should just find a breeder who they trust who does these things. Well, if you do not have a knowledge base, how can you properly interview a breeder about their knowledge base? 

Someone should not need several years of study to go out and find a good breeder. And in order to have the amount of information that is wanted and needed, someone really does need to grow up in the breed or be incredibly dilligent, and use all kinds of resources to gain that knowledgs. Unfortunately, many of our experts, raised up children with GSDs who are not following in their parents foot steps, prefer not to be experts in the breed and persue other career choices. And our experts are aging, retiring, or dying. 

I suppose I am rambling a concern that maybe should be its own thread. But where are tomorrow's experts going to come from? If anyone else is worried about this, they as buyers should want to gather as much information as possible. Leaving this in the hands of breeders is not really something we can afford to do. 

I think that when there are people asking questions, not just to be argumentative, but to learn the importance of things, well hooray for them. They can gather the reasons behind things and not just apply a what-is-an-ethical-breeder formula to each website, each breeder and say yay or nay for reasons they now understand. 

It is a little difference, but when you have cash in hand, and cute puppies staring up at you from the whelping box, and you have only heard -- don't buy if the sire and dam do not have titles. You can make a mistake many different ways. You can buy the puppy because it is cute; you can not but the puppy because there is a lack in the area of titles, and miss out on an awesome pairing from a awesome breeder; you can buy the puppy because there are titles even though the dam seems a bit nervous or scary. 

If you understand the why behind the rule, you can then decide if their is something that the breeder brings into the mix that trumps a simple title -- the sire was is currently a k9 -- trumps a title, but check it out because if I had a nickel for every person who tells me the pop is a k9, I could pay back my 401K. You can decide if that rule makes sense in the situation. 

Or you can just apply a red flag to every rule that marks a reputable or ethical breeder, and pass up any pup whose breeder does not fit that bill in its black and white entirety. 

I guess I am rambling.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> I don't really get the attitude here. Carmen and Cliff and some of the others have been on the board a good while and for people who read in the breeding sections, they come from a place of experience, at least in those lines they use and follow.
> 
> If GermanShepherdLova was saying that she intended to breed her untitled dog, I guess I could maybe understand coming down hard on her, pushing her to do her own research and suggesting that she is not in the same league with these others, should not argue with them about topics they have the superior knowledge in, etc.
> 
> But I understand that she might be in the market of buying a puppy, not breeding her dog. And she does not want to make a similar mistake when she is ready to buy the new pup because she is having issues with the other one.
> 
> And I can understand people not wanting to answer the same question over and over again, burned out by newbies asking questions that were asked a week ago or two weeks ago, and going into long dissertations. But instead of singling out one thread, and one person, who is NOT talking about BREEDING their dog, why not just stop posting to the thread if it is burning you out. I don't understand why novices cannot hold conversations with experienced people -- who better?
> 
> I guess I am missing something here. Why should people not ask questions and try to get information from many different sources. We should not guard our knowledge. There are not that many new people and young people who are willing to learn and have a passion for the breed that we should be alienating them. I think the people who want to make a difference for good in this breed have to be pretty free with their knowledge and willing to teach.


Thank you for distinguishing so clearly between a person who wants to breed and a person who wants to buy a puppy. I have said over and over that I wanted to select the right puppy next time. But perhaps you have said it more clearly, or since most do not have a bias against any statement that you make the way that some do here against anything that I say-just maybe my motive behind my questions are more clear now. 

I often wondered myself if some people were so stressed and tired of answering and restating themselves or just didn't want to share knowledge.....why would they keep reading and answering to this thread then?

One more thing, I asked Carmen if she agreed with the analysis that she posted about the Malinios because I was going to ask her if she personally had experience with the breed and if so I'd be all ears and my mouth would be shut.

The Malinois is a breed that also interests me. I am going to learn as much as I can about that breed. But I understand that this is a GSD forum and so I will take my beginning stage (I KNOW that there is much more to learning about a breed than asking questions on a forum) questions about the Malinois onto a forum where their owners post. I am bracing myself though....if they are anything like some I have encountered here then all I can say is Lord have mercy on me!


----------



## Liesje

selzer said:


> I suppose I am rambling a concern that maybe should be its own thread. But where are tomorrow's experts going to come from? If anyone else is worried about this, they as buyers should want to gather as much information as possible. Leaving this in the hands of breeders is not really something we can afford to do.


I agree, Sue. There has GOT to be some new blood, not just dogs but breed fanciers and breeders. I think the point several of us were trying to instill is that "knowledge" is really "experience" and you can't really gain experience here on this forum. That comes from actually spending time with the dogs. Many of the questions people ask are loaded questions that cannot be answered with words on a screen, they are things that have to be seen, felt, experienced. To me there has always been more resistance on the computer screen but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, people pushing and being pushed to keep a list of their questions in their head, or heck print them out, then go out to some various clubs, visit some breeders, check out some shows/trials/events....and you'll get your answers and they'll probably make a lot more sense than paragraphs on the computer screen. Honestly I don't see why this is such a hangup, encouraging people to spend as much time _with_ the dogs as possible. We can talk all day in circles about why titles matter or not, what pedigrees are valuable or not...but it doesn't really_ mean _anything unless it is applied. People can define and describe stuff like genetic obedience, fight drive, etc but who wouldn't want to go out and see/feel that for themselves? Also there are a lot of "experts" I've run into that are, shall we say, kind of rough around the edges. You do have to poke and prod and be persistent to draw out the knowledge and experience. Not all are this way, but many I've come across are (and I'm not talking about this thread b/c these people aren't even on a computer, period!) and I would hate to just skip over a great resource because they weren't on a computer for hours a day or weren't the most socially approachable person at the training club. If you're not willing to put yourself out there, you (a general "you") will miss out.


----------



## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Honestly I don't see why this is such a hangup, encouraging people to spend as much time _with_ the dogs as possible. We can talk all day in circles about why titles matter or not, what pedigrees are valuable or not...but it doesn't really_ mean _anything unless it is applied.


Very true.

But people have to start somewhere. Having a bit of "book learning" before they go out into the field isn't going to hurt.

Wouldn't it be great if there were a GSD University, and you could earn a degree? It could be taught by those who have been in GSDs for decades and have that wealth of knowledge and experience that people crave. There could be many different instructors for different sections. The degree could encompass the breed standard, history, bloodlines, temperament, drives, training techniques, etc. and there could be practicals out in the field with your own dog and others. Kind of like a SchH club, only with a didactic portion. Field trips and seminars could be part of the curriculum, and it could possibly include a trip to Germany to see how things are done over there.

It would be incredibly expensive and the degree would be worthless outside the realm of the GSD, but wouldn't it be cool?


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep, I may just steal this idea for a new thread topic.


----------



## Liesje

Freestep said:


> Very true.
> 
> But people have to start somewhere. Having a bit of "book learning" before they go out into the field isn't going to hurt.
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if there were a GSD University, and you could earn a degree? It could be taught by those who have been in GSDs for decades and have that wealth of knowledge and experience that people crave. There could be many different instructors for different sections. The degree could encompass the breed standard, history, bloodlines, temperament, drives, training techniques, etc. and there could be practicals out in the field with your own dog and others. Kind of like a SchH club, only with a didactic portion. Field trips and seminars could be part of the curriculum, and it could possibly include a trip to Germany to see how things are done over there.
> 
> It would be incredibly expensive and the degree would be worthless outside the realm of the GSD, but wouldn't it be cool?


Heck if I pulled all the time and money I already spend on my dogs it would probably be even! In all seriousness though, some clubs are almost like that already. When you think about it, you're there for like 6 hours and your own dog works for maybe 15 minutes total but is the other 5.75 hours a waste? Heck no! You've got a dozen people of various ages and experience levels discussing and demonstrating everything you just mentioned. This summer some friends from club and I visited several other area clubs, was great fun, learned a lot of new things.


----------



## crisp

Saw this on a website once, can't recall where, but it went something like: 'Train on the field, not on the internet'


----------



## gagsd

crisp said:


> Saw this on a website once, can't recall where, but it went something like: 'Train on the field, not on the internet'


Train on the field, but study at home.


----------



## crisp

gagsd said:


> Train on the field, but study at home.


Study at home, but argue on internet forums.


----------



## gagsd

You win


----------



## carmspack

[
A GSD is not a tamer version of a Malinois. Even in the von Stephanitz book, in reference to the question about whether there is benefit in crossing the two breeds, Mal X GSD , he emphatically says NO . The quality of the GSD would be lost . The GSD has many layers and nuances . The Malinois , said he, is basically a "jumping dog" and a "biting dog" . 

xxxxxxxxxxx I am incorporating my old email so that the context of the challenge made to me is not lost. I was asked if I thought the Malinois was a jumping dog and a biting dog.

Without sitting on the fence or winking away , my answer would be YES , yes that basically covers it.

Now for the explanation.

I was giving you von Stephanitz's comment which was straightforward and unadorned. He obviously had been thinking about the eventual need to introduce more blood, outside blood , as had been done in the development and fine tuning of the breed.

He was able to be so blunt because he understood the complexities of the breed which was a unification of four regional working herding and shepherds dogs . This is a sophisticated breed requiring undertanding of its ancestral heritage and intelligently managing the components so that no one "type" of dogs overwhelms another . This is the challenge of the WGSL's because through selection the gene base has been reduced to one or at most two (minor note) regional types . 

The GSD is not a nicer , calmer, toned down version of the Malinois. Anyone that says that does not know the GSD . 

That is why the topic of Malinois and the comparison is salient to the thread of ' breed with or without titles'. 

It does not matter what titles are fore or aft the dogs name unless you understand what is the core character of the GSD.

von Stephanitz recognized that the Malinois was fairly straight forward . IF it were used for herding it would not perform as the "boundary" dog , the living fence, which is the behaviour of the GSD. This would have been a behaviour strongest in the heavier set , lowland (Wurtemburg) dogs. The sheep were tight graze . A looser , more predatory , keeping together style would have been used in the hillside, mountain range where a looser graze was allowed . Thuringian. Then you had the dogs which protected the shepherds , out in the lonesome dark at night with robbers ready to rob and roll them. 

The Malinois excelled at its specialized role. 

Von Stephanitz saw that nothing would be gained by breeding this set of behaviours into the GSD as some of the subtle , characteristics would be sacrificed. They are the hard ones to maintain. They are the traits we look to as being part of the genetic obedience. Traits that differentiate the GSD from all other breeds. 

The GSD is tolerant and have mental and physical stamina. Herding requires all day repetitive behaviour . 

Malinois tend to flash . Impressively quick , physically and emotionally. This quick reactivity is a problem.

I saw several world-top pedigree litters of Malinois. To use hyperbole to make a point , they were biting the rag when they came out of the womb. 

Police depts were taking them on -- and then burdened with litigation from dogs biting civilians, dogs biting up the handlers, dogs biting up comrades , dogs distracted and engaging in fights with dogs in the enviroment while working. Also the breed needs quick gratification. Quick work , quick reward. Put them on a long track , oh boy, you get a promising start and then the interest wanes. Interest totally evaporated .

In addition to the mental fatique there were metabolic cooling problems. The Malinois would over heat and collapse, some of the dead on the track, as in deceased , no longer, departed, not "dead" as in accurate, true.

Totally different from the behaviour of the GSD . Malinois is SWAT mentality, GSD is Officer PLOD. 

To know the difference tells you more about the GSD .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Germanshepherdlova

carmspack said:


> [
> 
> 
> Totally different from the behaviour of the GSD . Malinois is SWAT mentality, GSD is Officer PLOD.
> 
> To know the difference tells you more about the GSD .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Wow Carmen, what a wonderful explanation. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer me. I understand the difference much better now. Again....thank you.


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> [
> A GSD is not a tamer version of a Malinois. Even in the von Stephanitz book, in reference to the question about whether there is benefit in crossing the two breeds, Mal X GSD , he emphatically says NO . The quality of the GSD would be lost . The GSD has many layers and nuances . The Malinois , said he, is basically a "jumping dog" and a "biting dog" .


I'll be blunt here. Carmspack I think you are making this up.


I know for a fact that the word Malinois is not mentioned one time in _Word and Picture_.

Where did he write about crossing the two breeds? Chapter and page please. 

I'll debunk the rest of your post later. :thumbup:


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## Fast

I'm still waiting Carmspack. :rolleyes2:


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## msvette2u

I talked to Butch Cappel who told me Mals were biting handlers due to poor handling, not overachieving dogs. 
Just sayin'...


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## msvette2u

As for "why title", dogs should _only_ be bred to improve the breed.
You have to have a starting point or you won't know what you're improving upon. There's got to be standards, which is the "starting point", if you will.


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## gsd_newbie

Allow me to be a bit lengthy here. In my country (it is Vietnam, if you curious), we don't have any proper Organization for GSD (well the latest news is that VKA -- Vietnam Kennel Association -- just been approved becoming a 85th member of FCI on Oct 2010), and we don't have any Schutzhund competitions yet. But we do love GSDs and we are looking forward to have an opportunity to tittle our dogs in a near future, hopefully!

Normally, local breeders are importing titled dogs and bitches from abroad, mostly from Germany for their breeding plan. Some dogs are pretty good with their proven track records, ie. SchH3 BSZS08 SG51 VA1 (Finland) Pedro vom Haus Bruchersee, IPO1 KKL1 VA1 (Serbie) 2009 Kimon von der Plassenburg, SchH1 KKL1 Josi von der Friedrichskluft, SchH1 KKL1 Queen vom Höchstadter Wehr, the list goes on. Unfortunately, some dogs /bitches were imported since they are still at their puppyhood therefor they have no title despite the fact that their parents are great in their bloodline, Fila von Momax for example, is a grand-daughter of Zamp vom Thermodos.

It is so true that while some rich guys being able to purchase puppy from Germany, most of us just can't afford all the actual costs (puppy, transportation, documents, etc...) of which can sum up to $10K or even more. So alternative is to buy from these breeders, at least I can assure that the puppies have GSD genetics runs thru their veins, and from there I can start raising and training. 

So if someone said 'only titled German Shepherd's be bred' and this statement appears validity for most of you and for myself as well, should I stay away from local bred and giving up my big love for these beautiful and admirable breed? I guess not. I have been self educating myself over the Net and various forums, and already purchased some good books in Schutzhund training, and will try my best with my dog. And when the time comes, I definitely will let my dog attend a competition. Does anyone ever experience the similar situation, and what would be your suggestion?

Thanks.


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## robk

I haven't read every post. however, titling to me helps standardize the selection process for breeding which promotes a consistent quality from generation to generation. People who purchase a professionally bred dog are no different than people who purchase a professionally produced product of any kind. They expect the product to meet certain standards. Titling doesn't guarantee the dog's offspring will be of expected quality but it improves the chances of it. I am grateful for the titling process of the German Shepherd.


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## selzer

gsd_newbie said:


> Allow me to be a bit lengthy here. In my country (it is Vietnam, if you curious), we don't have any proper Organization for GSD (well the latest news is that VKA -- Vietnam Kennel Association -- just been approved becoming a 85th member of FCI on Oct 2010), and we don't have any Schutzhund competitions yet. But we do love GSDs and we are looking forward to have an opportunity to tittle our dogs in a near future, hopefully!
> 
> Normally, local breeders are importing titled dogs and bitches from abroad, mostly from Germany for their breeding plan. Some dogs are pretty good with their proven track records, ie. SchH3 BSZS08 SG51 VA1 (Finland) Pedro vom Haus Bruchersee, IPO1 KKL1 VA1 (Serbie) 2009 Kimon von der Plassenburg, SchH1 KKL1 Josi von der Friedrichskluft, SchH1 KKL1 Queen vom Höchstadter Wehr, the list goes on. Unfortunately, some dogs /bitches were imported since they are still at their puppyhood therefor they have no title despite the fact that their parents are great in their bloodline, Fila von Momax for example, is a grand-daughter of Zamp vom Thermodos.
> 
> It is so true that while some rich guys being able to purchase puppy from Germany, most of us just can't afford all the actual costs (puppy, transportation, documents, etc...) of which can sum up to $10K or even more. So alternative is to buy from these breeders, at least I can assure that the puppies have GSD genetics runs thru their veins, and from there I can start raising and training.
> 
> So if someone said 'only titled German Shepherd's be bred' and this statement appears validity for most of you and for myself as well, should I stay away from local bred and giving up my big love for these beautiful and admirable breed? I guess not. I have been self educating myself over the Net and various forums, and already purchased some good books in Schutzhund training, and will try my best with my dog. And when the time comes, I definitely will let my dog attend a competition. Does anyone ever experience the similar situation, and what would be your suggestion?
> 
> Thanks.


I think that there are always going to be exceptions to rules. That is why I do not like the use of red flags. As a red flag suggests to not go forward with a breeder. If you have titles on your breeding stock -- that is the easy route for the buyer. Else, the buyer has to look even more carefully at the breeder, and the dogs individually. 

I think as you just became a member FCI, then buying a pup now that is from a breeder with good lines, but that does not participate in sport might be ok. But in five years or so, when you are looking to add another dog, that excuse no longer holds as much weight. But then you will be more experienced too. And I think it is much more important for new people in the breed to go with a breeder who is well versed in the area that you are buying your dog for, who has trained/titled whatever, as they can help you choose the right pup for the job and for your level of experience, etc. Once you have raised and worked and trialed the dog, you will know what you are looking for in the next dog.


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## gsd_newbie

Thanks a bunch selzer.


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## Fast

gsd_newbie said:


> So if someone said 'only titled German Shepherd's be bred' and this statement appears validity for most of you and for myself as well, should I stay away from local bred and giving up my big love for these beautiful and admirable breed? I guess not. I have been self educating myself over the Net and various forums, and already purchased some good books in Schutzhund training, and will try my best with my dog. And when the time comes, I definitely will let my dog attend a competition. Does anyone ever experience the similar situation, and what would be your suggestion?


You need to lean as much as you can. And that means getting off of the internet and go out and train some dogs and watch other dogs being trained. And then do what all GOOD breeders do and evaluate the dog for what he is; not what the scorebook and pedigree says he might be. Then breed based on YOUR opinion.


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## Fast

robk said:


> I haven't read every post. however, titling to me helps standardize the selection process for breeding which promotes a consistent quality from generation to generation.


Is this a good thing? What happens when the standardized selection process chosen was wrong? If all the dogs are standardized and the same, then you have no dogs to breed to so that the mistake can be bred out of the dogs.

I think that diversity in a breed is a good thing.


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## robk

Fast said:


> Is this a good thing? What happens when the standardized selection process chosen was wrong? If all the dogs are standardized and the same, then you have no dogs to breed to so that the mistake can be bred out of the dogs.
> 
> I think that diversity in a breed is a good thing.


How do you produce a consistent and quality product of any kind? By following a proven formula that works over a long period of time. We still have great lines of German Shepherds because of standards that go beyond confirmation. Why do you think people are still importing breeding stock dogs from Germany when we have so many dogs here in the USA? Because the dogs have to be titled to breed and therefore the dogs are (generally speaking) of a predictable quality. I would argue that it is because of titling activities such as schutzhund that the German Shepherd is still a great dog.


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## gsd_newbie

@Fast: I have no intention to bred our of my dog, and I definitely not a breeder. I deadly agree that only titled dogs should be bred, and Schutzhund is the most wonderful thing to pursue for both dogs and owners. Thanks


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## Fast

robk said:


> I would argue that it is because of titling activities such as schutzhund that the German Shepherd is still a great dog.


OK, go ahead and make that argument. But please explain to me why there are so many working breeds that have no working requirement yet are excellent workers. For instance, Border Collies, Labrador Retrievers and Malinois have no breeding requirements yet they are great working dogs. How does that happen if titles and breed test are so important? :thinking:


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## Emoore

Fast said:


> OK, go ahead and make this argument. But please explain to me why there are so many working breeds that have no working requirement yet are excellent workers. For instance, Border Collies, Labrador Retrievers and Malinois have no breeding requirements yet they are great working dogs. How does that happen if titles and breed test are so important? :thinking:


Good god, have you _seen_ the some of the BC's and Labs lately?


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## Catu

Border collies DO have working requirements!!!! of course... the original Border collie and not the Barbie collie that was born when the breed started to participate in shows nor the nerve bag of "agility lines"

ETA: right now I have a lab pup at home that the disabled owner wanted me to teach he to pick things from the floor, yet it has no retrieving drive, NOT AT ALL!


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## BR870

Emoore said:


> Good god, have you _seen_ the some of the BC's and Labs lately?


While I agree in principle with what he is saying. Yeah, I'm not sure I would use either of those to prove his point... Most Border Collies I see these days are neurotic fearful messes, and most labs are either total couch potatoes (great pets though) or a scary trend towards aggression seems to be showing up more and more...

I do get what he's saying though. At the risk of sounding like Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park... The more rigidly controlled a system is, the less tolerant it will be of entropy which it was not set up to deal with.


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## Catu

BR870 said:


> I do get what he's saying though. At the risk of sounding like Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park... The more rigidly controlled a system is, the less tolerant it will be of entropy which it was not set up to deal with.


Which in genetics is called "Inbreeding depression"


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## BR870

Catu said:


> Which in genetics is called "Inbreeding depression"


Absolutely!

I recently had a debate on this forum about heterosis/hybrid vigor (and its flip-side, Inbreeding Depression). Some here were actually arguing that they didn't believe heterosis/"hybrid vigor" existed...


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## jmopaso

Mrs. K
I applaud you.


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## Freestep

BR870 said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> I recently had a debate on this forum about heterosis/hybrid vigor (and its flip-side, Inbreeding Depression). Some here were actually arguing that they didn't believe heterosis/"hybrid vigor" existed...


Heterosis and hybrid vigor are two distinct and different things.

Heterosis refers to the pairs of genes; animals that are not related will tend to have more heterozygous gene pairs, while animals that are inbred will tend to have more homozygous gene pairs. In other words, heterozygous animals have more genetic variability both in their phenoytpe and what they can pass on.

"Hybrid vigor", technically, is a term that refers to the offspring of two animals of different *species*, but in the same genus. For example donkey + horse = mule. People use the term "hybrid" for mixing between breeds (or even between lines of the same breed) but it isn't really correct.

Hybrid animals have a high degree of heterosis, but animals with a high degree of heterosis are not necessariy hybrids.


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## BR870

Freestep said:


> Heterosis and hybrid vigor are two distinct and different things.
> 
> Heterosis refers to the pairs of genes; animals that are not related will tend to have more heterozygous gene pairs, while animals that are inbred will tend to have more homozygous gene pairs. In other words, heterozygous animals have more genetic variability both in their phenoytpe and what they can pass on.
> 
> "Hybrid vigor", technically, is a term that refers to the offspring of two animals of different *species*, but in the same genus. For example donkey + horse = mule. People use the term "hybrid" for mixing between breeds (or even between lines of the same breed) but it isn't really correct.
> 
> Hybrid animals have a high degree of heterosis, but animals with a high degree of heterosis are not necessariy hybrids.


Not as taught in a modern biology class... Sorry. Even though "hybrid" is used in hybrid vigor, the animals do not have to be "hybrids".

http://web.nmsu.edu/%7Emilthoma/HybrdVwb.html

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/264358/heterosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

In biology "Hybrid" has two meanings. You are right about the first, which is intragenus hybrids. However, hybrid can also be applied to crosses between populations breeds or cultivars within a single species

The phenomena is the same, whether intraspecies between distinct breeds or whether intragenus...


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## BR870

BR870 said:


> Not as taught in a modern biology class... Sorry. Even though "hybrid" is used in hybrid vigor, the animals do not have to be "hybrids".
> 
> Hybrid Vigor - Heterosis
> 
> heterosis (genetics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
> 
> Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> In biology "Hybrid" has two meanings. You are right about the first, which is intragenus hybrids. However, hybrid can also be applied to crosses between populations breeds or cultivars within a single species
> 
> The phenomena is the same, whether intraspecies between distinct breeds or whether intragenus...


Just to finish with some more citations...

Hybrid (biology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Hybrid (biology) - New World Encyclopedia

Notice in all definitions of "Hybrid" : "In biology, a *hybrid* is the offspring of individuals of _different_ taxonomic groups or, in another sense, an offspring of crosses between populations, breeds, or cultivars within a _single_ species."


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## Catu

BR870 said:


> Not as taught in a modern biology class... Sorry. Even though "hybrid" is used in hybrid vigor, the animals do not have to be "hybrids".


Heterosis and hybrid vigor is taught as the same in genetic too.


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## Germanshepherdlova

just so you know…..ya'll should speak English-because I have no clue what you're talking about with that Heterosis and hybrid vigor jargon.


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## BR870

Germanshepherdlova said:


> just so you know…..ya'll should speak English-because I have no clue what you're talking about with that Heterosis and hybrid vigor jargon.
> View attachment 12039


Pay no attention to the nerd-fight..


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## Germanshepherdlova

BR870 said:


> Pay no attention to the nerd-fight..


oookay…..carry on then.


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## Freestep

BR870 said:


> Notice in all definitions of "Hybrid" : "In biology, a *hybrid* is the offspring of individuals of _different_ taxonomic groups or, in another sense, an offspring of crosses between populations, breeds, or cultivars within a _single_ species."


When they're not being too strict with the definition of "hybrid", people will use the term for the latter meaning, sometimes wrongly; for example, a mixed breed dog is not really a "hybrid". And when people use the term "hybrid vigor" as an excuse to breed "designer dogs", it annoys me on many levels.  

Still, heterosis and hybrid vigor are not exactly the same thing; while all hybrids have a high degree of heterosis, an animal need not be a hybrid to posess it. Any species with a large and varied gene pool has some degree of heteroisis without outcrossing to another species.


The term "hybrid" does seem to have a wider use within horticulture, as there are hybrid roses and such that appear to be the same species. And it's used in an even looser sense casually, to describe anything that combines two different technologies, ie hybrid cars.


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## BR870

Freestep said:


> When they're not being too strict with the definition of "hybrid", people will use the term for the latter meaning, sometimes wrongly; for example, a mixed breed dog is not really a "hybrid". And when people use the term "hybrid vigor" as an excuse to breed "designer dogs", it annoys me on many levels.
> 
> Still, heterosis and hybrid vigor are not exactly the same thing; while all hybrids have a high degree of heterosis, an animal need not be a hybrid to posess it. *Any species with a large and varied gene pool has some degree of heteroisis without outcrossing to another species.*
> 
> 
> The term "hybrid" does seem to have a wider use within horticulture, as there are hybrid roses and such that appear to be the same species. And it's used in an even looser sense casually, to describe anything that combines two different technologies, ie hybrid cars.


I think we're basically saying the same thing, and we're not really disagreeing. Heterosis is absolutely the more correct and proper biological name of the phenomena. "Hybrid Vigor" is the laymen's term attached to it.

Its not just horticulture... The term and phenomena is widely studies in cattle.

However, I disagree... A mixed breed dog is absolutely a "hybrid" in the sense that is is a "cross between populations, breeds, or cultivars within a _single_ species", and will show some level of heterosis. (this is the original topic that provoked the debate in the first place)


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## Freestep

BR870 said:


> However, I disagree... A mixed breed dog is absolutely a "hybrid" in the sense that is is a "cross between populations, breeds, or cultivars within a _single_ species", and will show some level of heterosis.


We will have to agree to disagree on this point: while mixed-breed dogs possess some degree heterosis, they are not "hybrids" in the strict sense. The reason I'm nit-picky about this is that people will use "hybrid vigor" as an excuse to breed "designer dogs", claiming they are healthier, which is of course nonsense. A mixed-breed dog may have more heterosis than a purebred, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be healther. Mix two breeds that are known for eye, ear, and dental problems (Shih-Tzu and Poodle, for example) and you have a mixed-breed dog with just as much predisposition for these problems as purebreds.


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## BR870

Freestep said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this point: while mixed-breed dogs possess some degree heterosis, they are not "hybrids" in the strict sense.


 And animal doesn't have to be a "hybrid" in the interspecies sense to show "hybrid vigor". Take for example the succesful use of "hybrid vigor" in cattle (which are all most definitely the same species)

http://cattletoday.com/archive/2010/April/CT2207.php



> The reason I'm nit-picky about this is that people will use "hybrid vigor" as an excuse to breed "designer dogs", claiming they are healthier, which is of course nonsense. A mixed-breed dog may have more heterosis than a purebred, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be healther. Mix two breeds that are known for eye, ear, and dental problems (Shih-Tzu and Poodle, for example) and you have a mixed-breed dog with just as much predisposition for these problems as purebreds.


This is more an argument against poor breeding practices. Problems popping up in crosses is more due to the poor breeding practices of "designer dog" breeders than it does with the absence of the heterosis affect when crossing breeds. 

Heterosis in and of itself is not a good enough reason to mix two breeds, I'll agree there...


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this point: while mixed-breed dogs possess some degree heterosis, they are not "hybrids" in the strict sense. The reason I'm nit-picky about this is that people will use "hybrid vigor" as an excuse to breed "designer dogs", claiming they are healthier, which is of course nonsense. A mixed-breed dog may have more heterosis than a purebred, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be healther. Mix two breeds that are known for eye, ear, and dental problems (Shih-Tzu and Poodle, for example) and you have a mixed-breed dog with just as much predisposition for these problems as purebreds.









Are you guys calling a truce then? Interesting argument actually.


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