# Boom Lakes and Wild Winds



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

I over spent my 1000 bucks a while back now down to 55 bucks. When I can make my money over 1000-3000 bucks or over, which won't be for awhile, then might consider getting a pup. Would love to raise my own German shepherd alongside my Labradoodle! They would have so much fun and would still walk dogs and keep in touch with all the dogs I know. Train him all by myself. Will be mostly paying attention to both. My German shepherd will be a companion and I will see what the future holds in for us. Do you think these breeders are real responsible reputable ones? They looked better than that last one who brags about personality. They seem to do everything pedigrees, health, temperament, and in the end match making. Returns pups back, but in return no refunds. Although in CA would shipping be alright or is that too risky? Don't mind a color preference he can be sable, black and tan, black, whatever. I'm sure whoever I get will change my life. Male first than later female than later another male. What a nice German shepherd plan!!

http://www.boomlakesgermanshepherds.com/

http://www.racethewindstables.ca/dogs.html


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

You're not ready. You need an ONGOING source of income.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

No offense, but look a bit more locally. Timmins - beautiful, literally God's Country, because it's so far away from everything! Either place would be a lot to ask a puppy to be shipped and have you checked into international regulations for shipping puppies. Your $1,000 won't cover the plane and customs fees. Not to mention, you need Rabies Vax to cross, most breeders and vets don't give that until 16weeks - 6 months. Plus, these dogs are CKC registered, that's the Canadian Kennel Club, which is fine, but I don't think you can compete in AKC with a CKC registration.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

ozzymama said:


> No offense, but look a bit more locally. Timmins - beautiful, literally God's Country, because it's so far away from everything! Either place would be a lot to ask a puppy to be shipped and have you checked into international regulations for shipping puppies. Your $1,000 won't cover the plane and customs fees. Not to mention, you need Rabies Vax to cross, most breeders and vets don't give that until 16weeks - 6 months. Plus, these dogs are CKC registered, that's the Canadian Kennel Club, which is fine, but I don't think you can compete in AKC with a CKC registration.


You do not need a rabies vax to cross if it is a young puppy, just a record of what vaccines were given.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When the time comes there are some EXCELLENT breeders in California. I think you have a way to go and should be on your own and self-supporting in all ways.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> You do not need a rabies vax to cross if it is a young puppy, just a record of what vaccines were given.



Wow, learn something new every day.  I honestly thought you needed rabies.
As an aside, I was reading the US Border info on transport where I saw under 3mos is OK and saw it had to be in English - I was like, where is French, then remembered I was reading US info LOL.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

ozzymama said:


> Wow, learn something new every day.  I honestly thought you needed rabies.
> As an aside, I was reading the US Border info on transport where I saw under 3mos is OK and saw it had to be in English - I was like, where is French, then remembered I was reading US info LOL.


I don't blame you-- I, too, was surprised you didn't need rabies, when I checked to see what I needed in order to bring 8-week-old Hans over here. 
The customs guy checked his vaccine records from Robin's vet and that was it.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

ozzymama said:


> No offense, but look a bit more locally. Timmins - beautiful, literally God's Country, because it's so far away from everything! Either place would be a lot to ask a puppy to be shipped and have you checked into international regulations for shipping puppies. Your $1,000 won't cover the plane and customs fees. Not to mention, you need Rabies Vax to cross, most breeders and vets don't give that until 16weeks - 6 months. Plus, these dogs are CKC registered, that's the Canadian Kennel Club, which is fine, but I don't think you can compete in AKC with a CKC registration.


Unless they could ship him to BC. Then we drive him home.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's the same within the states as well, even though many states and counties require rabies vaccines/licenses. If the dog is under a certain age, they are exempt. I shipped a puppy from MI to FL and he did not need a rabies shot even though both states have rabies.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Liesje said:


> It's the same within the states as well, even though many states and counties require rabies vaccines/licenses. If the dog is under a certain age, they are exempt. I shipped a puppy from MI to FL and he did not need a rabies shot even though both states have rabies.


Well, are these good breeders? On this list?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There are breeders near you who work their stock and earn performance titles and do everything else right as well. I don't see any of the hear but have no experience with eitehr breeder so no comment.

It is one thing if you can't find someone near but you can and are not looking for something so unusual you need to ship from another country. And, being near you, support when you need it. Right now, though, I would not be talking with breeders. Get out and get involved in GSD events and connect directly with people. 

The dogs you chose came from a mix of all kinds of different lines. Is there a goal, a "type" you would be looking for? You have been on the forum long enough to know about different lines of GSDs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I could be wrong, but I think you can get AKC registration on a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered dog, otherwise how can we have American/Canadian champions. Just like with the SV, when you import your puppy you can apply to the AKC for registration. You just need to jump through a few more hoops. The dog has to be registered through the kennel club for that country that the AKC views as the legitimate club. They have a list on their site. You need the paperwork for the dog, pictures, and you have to do a DNA swab on the dog, and pay for it. Really, it isn't all that much more than a regular registration. 

But you can then compete with the dog in AKC events. There may be a way to compete with a foreign registration, I don't know.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> I could be wrong, but I think you can get AKC registration on a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered dog, otherwise how can we have American/Canadian champions. Just like with the SV, when you import your puppy you can apply to the AKC for registration. You just need to jump through a few more hoops. The dog has to be registered through the kennel club for that country that the AKC views as the legitimate club. They have a list on their site. You need the paperwork for the dog, pictures, and you have to do a DNA swab on the dog, and pay for it. Really, it isn't all that much more than a regular registration.
> 
> But you can then compete with the dog in AKC events. There may be a way to compete with a foreign registration, I don't know.


@selzer
@joconyn

Yeah I have emailed people for a German Shepherd Dog Club. Although, they haven't responded yet been waiting for almost a week I think. A few months ago I attended a Pet Fair where it was a huge adoption fair for dogs and cats. Over there I ran into some people with German shepherds who where I got their number. Unfortunately, I found out after that the number was wrong. Since then have been looking for the guy with his GS since he lives around here, can't find him! So maybe I could ask at the Humane Society or SPCA, or don't know what to do! Need to be less talk and more action.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I really think that you are getting ahead of yourself. You don't have a steady income, with something set aside for emergencies. You can't form a bond with the dog you already have. You are all over the place in theories about feeding and training. You're looking all over the place for something that you can likely find practically in your back yard. You may or may not have some psychological issues that should be addressed. 

As much as you may not like it, you need to slow down and do some serious learning, and get some more life experience under your belt. Then you need to have your own place, be self-sufficient, and have the assets to care for yourself and the dog you already have before adding another to the mix. 

Of course, I'm no professional, and just some random bozo on the internet, so you can take or leave my advice at your leisure. It might do you a huge amount of good to seek the counsel of a professional near you who can help you determine what you can and can't handle, and maybe suggest ways to prepare for what you want.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

OriginalWacky said:


> I really think that you are getting ahead of yourself. You don't have a steady income, with something set aside for emergencies.


Anything else aside, this alone is going to be a major red flag for a breeder. I've only glanced at a few of your posts on the boards recently, but I don't think you necessarily understand what people mean when they talk about a reputable breeder. It's not only that the dogs are healthy, sound, raised well, etc, it's that they care about their lines and where their dogs are going to go. Breeders worth anything aren't like going to the store where you just hand over your money for the goods. There is going to be an application process, and things like not having a steady income or being in school (you're in college, right?) where you're likely to be moving around are going to probably keep you from getting a dog from a good breeder. If someone is willing to sell you a dog in this sort of situation, no questions asked, they're not the sort of person you want to support in breeding.

Didn't I see you mention before about waiting until you were done with school, or at least a few years, before getting a dog? Don't jump the gun on this one! Take it from me... I registered here in 2009. That's 5 years ago. I'm only NOW in a place where we're ready for a dog, and I feel I've done enough research to know what I want. And even so, we might not even make it to a litter this summer, we might have to wait another whole year. Take your time! Visit clubs, dog shows, events, anything you can to make connections in your area. Meet people that can help guide you to find what you're looking for. Volunteer at a shelter or rescue to help get more experience with dogs so you can see what you can and can't handle. Trust me, I know how absolutely hard it is waiting, but it is SO worth it in the end!

All that said, looking at breeders is definitely a good thing to help you do your research! Look at all the good lists available to help you understand what a good breeder is. Look at the breeders people are posting and asking questions about. Use it like a school assignment. Just look at the info they give you, and see if you can figure out on your own what the good and bad points are. You don't need to contact people to do this, and it's awfully fun because there are generally a million pictures you can look at! :wub: But the more dogs you look at, the more breeders you look at, the more you'll be able to see the exceptional ones from the shady ones. There are breeders I looked at when I was first in my search for my first dog (a husky) that I am FLOORED that I liked at the time! But it takes time and effort to be able to recognize the sort of people you want to support. If you just find breeders and post them for other people to look at without doing the critical thinking, you won't figure out what to look for, if that makes sense. Since you have so much time, it's really worth it to think it out on your own, read other discussions about it, and see if what you thought matches up with what other people are saying. Heck, I STILL do this, looking at breeders is one of my favorite past-times! haha

Good luck in your searching!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lobobear44 said:


> Well, are these good breeders? On this list?


I'm not going to sit here and put breeders I've never met or dealt with in a "good" or "bad" list. There are breeders I'd buy from, and breeders I wouldn't. I'd probably buy from breeders other people think are "bad" and not buy from breeders some people think are greater than sliced bread. I personally would not buy a dog from either of these breeders. I think you can do much better even closer to home. Why do these breeders stand out to you?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There is one breeder in CA I would highly recommend, knowing where dogs from her lines have gone and what they have done and having a dog with her lines. That said, her litters are few and far between, mostly go to experienced working homes, and she does not "do" warranties. [which are an American construct]...to me the "rules" are rough guidelines...it all becomes so much clearer when you know what you are looking for and "shopping" on the internet is a great way to see what is out there and a terrible way to actually look for a dog.

You really need to meet dogs from various lines and figure out what you want to do with it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm curious about why these breeders too? There are plenty of good breeders in the US, it seems strange to be only looking at breeders in Canada, especially as far away as Ontario.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Wolfenstein said:


> Anything else aside, this alone is going to be a major red flag for a breeder. I've only glanced at a few of your posts on the boards recently, but I don't think you necessarily understand what people mean when they talk about a reputable breeder. It's not only that the dogs are healthy, sound, raised well, etc, it's that they care about their lines and where their dogs are going to go. Breeders worth anything aren't like going to the store where you just hand over your money for the goods. There is going to be an application process, and things like not having a steady income or being in school (you're in college, right?) where you're likely to be moving around are going to probably keep you from getting a dog from a good breeder. If someone is willing to sell you a dog in this sort of situation, no questions asked, they're not the sort of person you want to support in breeding.
> 
> Didn't I see you mention before about waiting until you were done with school, or at least a few years, before getting a dog? Don't jump the gun on this one! Take it from me... I registered here in 2009. That's 5 years ago. I'm only NOW in a place where we're ready for a dog, and I feel I've done enough research to know what I want. And even so, we might not even make it to a litter this summer, we might have to wait another whole year. Take your time! Visit clubs, dog shows, events, anything you can to make connections in your area. Meet people that can help guide you to find what you're looking for. Volunteer at a shelter or rescue to help get more experience with dogs so you can see what you can and can't handle. Trust me, I know how absolutely hard it is waiting, but it is SO worth it in the end!
> 
> ...


I already do volunteer at SPCA and a couple rescues. Soon will at the humane society. A couple rescue organizations didn't work out cause most are long commutes.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm curious about why these breeders too? There are plenty of good breeders in the US, it seems strange to be only looking at breeders in Canada, especially as far away as Ontario.


Just want your review on these breeders.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

How can you review a breeder if you have not met them or their dogs? Seriously? A web page is a front, an image. We have a "things to look for" thread, and have mentioned some concerns like we would with any web page, but unless you have direct knowledge there is no point in doing this work for you.

I would suggest that anyone who has bought from either of these breeders can PM you directly. You can also search for them on this forum to see if you find threads with their name.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If a breeder only wants to sell to experienced working homes and the OP isn't why would you recommend them?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I clearly did not recommend any specific breeder but gave an example of the type of situation the "rules" may not be cast in stone ...but are things to consider when evaluating........There is good general guidance on that link on what to look for and then you have to consider "what if they don't do this or that" and make a judgement.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

_If a breeder is only selling to experienced working homes and I am not an experienced working home-I would go somewhere else-I didn't understand a thing that you posted _


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The point I was trying to make but, apparently was not clear, was that the hyper-linked thread is a GREAT point for helping assess a prospective breeder. 

*However*, there are times when you may find a good breeder who does not do everything on that list all the time so don't use it as a hatchet. 

Warranties may be an example. Another example is some breeders may breed an untitled dog because they have enough experience with the lines and the dog in front of them to make that determination, while others either don't know any better or don't care. So it is not all black and white. 

I was not trying to direct the OP to *ANY* breeder because I think that is premature. He needs to get out and interact with people who are showing and working GSDs and there are plenty of opportunities to do that in No Cal. I guess what was between the lines I did NOT say directly was that I did not find out about this person from searching web pages but from people who were working her dogs in my discipline, ("I like your dog, where did it come from"?) hence my suggestion to get out and meet people and GSDs as much as possible and find what you like.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol never heard of Boom Lake. Breeding for color is always a pathway to success. 
I do not like any of the X Box kids I have seen either.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Getting a dog while you are in school is a BAD idea. Don't do it. With the economy as it is, what if you couldn't find a good job and had to choose between feeding yourself or your dog? What if you couldn't find a cheap apartment that allows dogs? These are some of the top reasons we have so many in shelters. You volunteer for the SPCA so you must understand that.

One thing I have done is to start a folder on my computer with pictures of dogs from breeders I like and notes about why. There's no pressure to make a decision, it's just for fun. I would love to rush out and get a puppy for SAR right now but there is just no way that it's the right time. I have my own GSD to take care of and a full-time job, no way is adding a puppy to the picture a good idea. But several years down the road, things will be different. If you take your time you are more likely to end up with the puppy you really want. In the end you may follow the advice of a mentor instead, rather than looking at forums. But you will know exactly why their advice is valuable.

You were going to sign up for classes with your labradoodle- why not save money for that?


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Not going to make too many assumptions about you but your opening line is "I over-spent my 1000 bucks awhile back" - if you are overspending when you were planning on saving, you won't have enough responsibility for a dog.

You want to save 1-3k for a dog. That's not NEARLY enough. Here's a breakdown of how much it costed for my girl her first year, and the only health problem she had was diarrhea once, an ear infection once, and an eye infection once, so very minimal for a puppy:

-Nearly 2k for the puppy and shipping
-an additional 100 dollars per month at my apartment -not deposit, my rent went up 100 dollars a month , so 1.2k extra
-1k for various training classes, though we purchased a group lesson for life package, I can go back to this guy for every dog I ever get, an investment
- 800 due to boarding her 2 times when I had to go out of town for less than a week, the other 2 times I went out of town my friends watched her for free
- $1000 a year for food, about 70 bucks a bag, plus some treats and raw bones
- 400 for crate and leashes, etc, toys
- 200 e-collar
- 500 shots, medication for our few vet visits
- 100 for heartworm
- 60 for flea
and my dog isn't even spayed yet, which is another few hundred bucks. This is already about 7k and nothing went wrong with her medically that was serious. 

I'm in college. My significant other luckily makes six figures otherwise there would be no possible way for me to pay for this dog and multitask with school. Spending time with her and managing school is hard enough, throw a job on top of that and you'd run dry. I'm not saying you need to make tons of money to have a dog, but it's a lot more expensive than you think O:


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol never heard of Boom Lake. Breeding for color is always a pathway to success.
> I do not like any of the X Box kids I have seen either.


They are not breeding for color


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

There are a lot of things in this thread I disagree with, though I still do agree that the OP is not ready for a puppy, I'm not going to say that all of the sentiment here is correct. 

I got a puppy with my boyfriend in high school. Went to college and took him with, lived off campus. Moved three more times since then, went through two relationships. Still have/support the dog between the two of us. It's almost NEVER the right time. Wasn't the "right" time for Patton now, either. But a few awesome people here reminded me that if they had waited for the "right" time, they wouldn't have dogs! :crazy:

I'm not always the most responsible spender either, so I feel making judgment off of one remark about it isn't fair. I make sure my dogs are always taken care of and I always have credit cards as back up if I didn't save enough/splurged and bought something I didn't need. If you had NO safety net, however, it would be a huge problem.



mego said:


> Not going to make too many assumptions about you but your opening line is "I over-spent my 1000 bucks awhile back" - if you are overspending when you were planning on saving, you won't have enough responsibility for a dog.
> 
> You want to save 1-3k for a dog. That's not NEARLY enough. Here's a breakdown of how much it costed for my girl her first year, and the only health problem she had was diarrhea once, an ear infection once, and an eye infection once, so very minimal for a puppy:
> 
> ...


 Keep in mind that all of this is going to depend on area, too. I wouldn't spend close to half of that amount of money on my dogs. The problems she had as a puppy are NOT minimal.. that's actually a lot of medical problems for a well-bred puppy to be experiencing. I foster loads of puppies and have personally raised a little less than a hand full for myself. Very few have issues as puppies, in the first 6 months-year, medically. 

Wouldn't spend nearly that here for boarding, HW meds are only $40 every few years for liquid ivermectin, I don't buy flea preventative other that Bug Of Garlic which is less than $40 for one dog for a full year, E collars aren't necessary items to raise a puppy with, you can get a crate, hand full of toys and leash/collar for $150 total at the grocery store. We have free rabies clinics around here and DHPP vaccines cost all of $10 total to pick up from the pet store and administer yourself. Wormer for $10 at the store, too...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

He's in the Bay Area, Danielle - everything is VERY expensive here!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I have personal experience with one of the breeders, and know some of the dogs from the other, PM me if you'd like to discuss.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> He's in the Bay Area, Danielle - everything is VERY expensive here!


Lol that IS true... I forgot he lived near you! 

So glad I live in Michigan at times like these. Dogs are cheap, living is cheap. XD


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> The point I was trying to make but, apparently was not clear, was that the hyper-linked thread is a GREAT point for helping assess a prospective breeder.
> 
> *However*, there are times when you may find a good breeder who does not do everything on that list all the time so don't use it as a hatchet.
> 
> ...



That is clearer

...(and not directed at you) but I happened to really like the X box kid I saw -


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> He's in the Bay Area, Danielle - everything is VERY expensive here!


Speaking of which I need to come to ur shows to expand my dog experience before I regret it more!


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Wouldn't spend nearly that here for boarding, HW meds are only $40 every few years for liquid ivermectin, I don't buy flea preventative other that Bug Of Garlic which is less than $40 for one dog for a full year, E collars aren't necessary items to raise a puppy with, you can get a crate, hand full of toys and leash/collar for $150 total at the grocery store. We have free rabies clinics around here and DHPP vaccines cost all of $10 total to pick up from the pet store and administer yourself. Wormer for $10 at the store, too...


Oh yeah, some of the stuff is definitely optional or unnecessary for most people, like the e collar and the boarding that was expensive. I'm really picky about where I board my dog so I opted for a pricey place, it was just to show how some costs can add up to be more than anticipated. There are plenty of ways to find cheaper alternatives.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lobobear44 said:


> They are not breeding for color


Whats the goal of their program then?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Whats the goal of their program then?


Companion, working, active, temperament, health, quality, etc.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

I tried reading the original post twice and still have no idea what it means. It's probably just me though.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

You're a little ways away from being able to start looking at breeders- go to dog events and figure out what you like in a dog, first. Figure out what suits your personality. Get as much exposure as you can until you're a little more financially stable, and by that time you'll be much better able to evaluate a breeder and figure out what you want  You're on the right track with the volunteering! There are a lot of resources out in your area to learn from.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lobobear44 said:


> Companion, working, active, temperament, health, quality, etc.


You know this how? Because they wrote it on their website?

Helpful hint: Breeding for companion is a nice way of saying their is no specific goal other then pets...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Look up their breeding dogs and pups working achievements, heck look for any achievments. Let us know what you find. You can use those results to start to get a handle on what their program is oriented towards and if they are successful.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Go out and get involved with the dog you have. Take classes, do some training, maybe put a rally or obedience title on him. Meanwhile meet people with GSD and get a feel for the breed so you can learn to read between the lines on most websites.  

My first obedience dog was a Dobie. While I worked and trialed him I got to meet GSD people and realized what I wanted and what I didn't. I also had good people who were able to at least mentor me in what to look for in a breeder. There was no internet back then so I had to learn things the hard, but probably better, way........ hands on.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Oh, no comments on the breeders you asked about. They are not people I would buy from, but then there are lot out there that I wouldn't buy from that others like.


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## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not always the most responsible spender either, so I feel making judgment off of one remark about it isn't fair.


Read Lobo's posting history...


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Elite German Shepherds - Home this is a good one. Wow this is strange someone like me who is not ready for another dog yet. So hard too wait!!


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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

Trust me when I say that 1000 isn't enough. Our little nugget has already set us back over 2500 and we've only had him for 2 weeks. I included the following:

-2 10-hour drives (there and back): one to meet breeder and see the operation for ourselves and to actually pick up the pup- listen when they say not to trust a website (a TON of gas and hotel costs)

-1250$ for the pup himself

- 200$ order from chewy.com for quality food and toys

-75$ PER MONTH for puppy vet care plan

-90$ kennel

-70$ assorted training supplies

-300+$ on obedience 

-20$ per week for raw food

This is just a rough outline of the past two weeks, dude. It's not that you shouldn't get one because you can't afford "the best" but you will never forgive yourself if something happens and you can do nothing because of money. I had a 3 year old Basset who was my best friend die of bloat because I couldn't afford to take her to the vet till the next day. I still think about her everyday. I promised to never let that happy again. 





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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

mego said:


> Not going to make too many assumptions about you but your opening line is "I over-spent my 1000 bucks awhile back" - if you are overspending when you were planning on saving, you won't have enough responsibility for a dog.
> 
> You want to save 1-3k for a dog. That's not NEARLY enough. Here's a breakdown of how much it costed for my girl her first year, and the only health problem she had was diarrhea once, an ear infection once, and an eye infection once, so very minimal for a puppy:
> 
> ...


Story of my life too. We spent 2 years researching the breed and another year ish looking for a breeder- while simultaneously renovating our first home. My boyfriend makes good money and I'm in college. We would have never gotten a dog if we weren't in our current situation. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I really don't think the $$$ or spending is the issue here. I've never bought or not bought dogs based on financial decisions. Either the dog is the right dog at the right time or not. If so, I've always been able to make it work. I do not have savings accounts for buying new dogs or for their health.

I think the issue here is that Lobo needs more breed experience. He is suggesting breeders of vastly differing quality and equally differing styles/lines of dogs being bred. Whether or not he can afford a dog is not really my business but my advice would be to really understand the differences in these dogs and not just based on how they look in cute pictures or YouTube videos doing tricks.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, :thumbup:


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

madis said:


> Trust me when I say that 1000 isn't enough. Our little nugget has already set us back over 2500 and we've only had him for 2 weeks. I included the following:
> 
> -2 10-hour drives (there and back): one to meet breeder and see the operation for ourselves and to actually pick up the pup- listen when they say not to trust a website (a TON of gas and hotel costs)
> 
> ...


Who ever said I will buy a pup with the money I have now? I won't until I gained enough money and not get into bad habit to overspend.


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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Who ever said I will buy a pup with the money I have now? I won't until I gained enough money and not get into bad habit to overspend.


Ok I must have misread, my apologies. I suggest you go help a GSD rescue and practice mock training sessions while you excessive the dogs. It helped me gain confidence and understanding in training and consistency. It's also a good way to get your foot in the door with a club or trainer


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I predict Lobobear will fall in love with one of the rescues, and this puppy purchasing idea will fall by the wayside.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Maximize the possibilities with the existing dog. How old is the labradoodle? Is he old enough to get you through college?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I predict Lobobear will fall in love with one of the rescues, and this puppy purchasing idea will fall by the wayside.


You're more optimistic than I am. 

Over and over I'm seeing a kid who wants to fantasize about a perfect dog and not do work with real dogs.


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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

madis said:


> Ok I must have misread, my apologies. I suggest you go help a GSD rescue and practice mock training sessions while you excessive the dogs. It helped me gain confidence and understanding in training and consistency. It's also a good way to get your foot in the door with a club or trainer
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I meant exercise*** I dislike autocorrect 

(Didn't know we couldn't say the "d**n" word sorry admin  )

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> Maximize the possibilities with the existing dog. How old is the labradoodle? Is he old enough to get you through college?


Almost 5-years-old.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Merciel said:


> You're more optimistic than I am.
> 
> Over and over I'm seeing a kid who wants to fantasize about a perfect dog and not do work with real dogs.


We will see what the future brings me. Who knows I could get out there in the future with a German shepherd. All of them I will have different possibility goals for except show: family companion, scenting, SAR, service dog, and more. I could do show dogs for my possible anatolian shepherds. Also will open foster homes for rescues and shelters. Also will transport dogs from kill shelters. Adopt too and still do breeders. Maybe in 20-30 years I could start breeding dogs be a responsible one and still do rescues.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

madis said:


> Ok I must have misread, my apologies. I suggest you go help a GSD rescue and practice mock training sessions while you excessive the dogs. It helped me gain confidence and understanding in training and consistency. It's also a good way to get your foot in the door with a club or trainer
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am in a couple GS ones. Since I can't drive my parents tell me to do one a month and pick one. I chose my Nordic rescue and GS one. Could try the other one again because they were quick to judge to first impressions when I was happy being with their dogs. Weird group.


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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I am in a couple GS ones. Since I can't drive my parents tell me to do one a month and pick one. I chose my Nordic rescue and GS one. Could try the other one again because they were quick to judge to first impressions when I was happy being with their dogs. Weird group.


Some rescue groups can be a little odd to newcomers, they are usually a very tight community so I wouldn't take it personally. 
And this is just from personal experience with one rescue group I helped with, but they had a dislike of breeders and people who supported them. I know it's a bold statement to say but like I said this was just one place. They always made comments to me on why I got Munson (Basset) from a breeder (it was actually a puppy mill but I didn't know better at the time) and not a rescue. You just have to be polite and humble to them.


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## imtherookie (Jan 30, 2014)

Hello everyone, Boom Lake's here....I just want to say I agree whole heartedly with whoever said "How can you judge a breeder if you haven't met them or their dogs" You all don't know me or Kathy from Wild Winds, but my dogs are my pride and have been very special to me, I don't show as I have to work to support them, so I don't have the time nor the money! There is no venue in my area and it would entail too much traveling....AS you all know there is no money to be made in breeding good dogs and my dogs come first!! They do however come from good solid lines that boast many a champion, my clients keep in touch with me, most on a regular basis and I give support as long as they need it! As of yet no dogs have been returned to me due to medical or genetic problems, all my pups are guaranteed and I stand behind it!! My dogs are all raised on a raw and very healthy diet, I am only trying to better the breed that I love, having said that I have to admit I am not so fond of what it has become and I think that as representatives of the breed we should all be more careful about the dogs that we are breeding, sound minds and bodies are most important, to me anyhow!! And I would not ship a pup to California way to stressful!! BC too!!
Anyhow just wanted to put my 2 cents in as I said earlier you all don't know me, so all minds at ease I hope cause anyone south of the border that wants one of my dogs will have to drive to come get it!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Welcome to the forum. Hope you stay and participate. Check the rules which are posted at the top of each forum section (no violation, just advance because sometimes new folks miss them)


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## imtherookie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank you for the warm welcome and I do  plan on sticking around!!


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Welcome! I love when breeders join and chime in with their perspective, it's always so interesting.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

imtherookie said:


> Hello everyone, Boom Lake's here....I just want to say I agree whole heartedly with whoever said "How can you judge a breeder if you haven't met them or their dogs" You all don't know me or Kathy from Wild Winds, but my dogs are my pride and have been very special to me, I don't show as I have to work to support them, so I don't have the time nor the money! There is no venue in my area and it would entail too much traveling....AS you all know there is no money to be made in breeding good dogs and my dogs come first!! They do however come from good solid lines that boast many a champion, my clients keep in touch with me, most on a regular basis and I give support as long as they need it! As of yet no dogs have been returned to me due to medical or genetic problems, all my pups are guaranteed and I stand behind it!! My dogs are all raised on a raw and very healthy diet, I am only trying to better the breed that I love, having said that I have to admit I am not so fond of what it has become and I think that as representatives of the breed we should all be more careful about the dogs that we are breeding, sound minds and bodies are most important, to me anyhow!! And I would not ship a pup to California way to stressful!! BC too!!
> Anyhow just wanted to put my 2 cents in as I said earlier you all don't know me, so all minds at ease I hope cause anyone south of the border that wants one of my dogs will have to drive to come get it!!


I did not have this in mind. Welcome to the forum! Driving would just take forever to come get dogs from Ontario. Assume someone flying over there is not a good idea either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> I did not have this in mind. Welcome to the forum! Driving would just take forever to come get dogs from Ontario. Assume someone flying over there is not a good idea either.



I could be wrong, but a 8 week old puppy is small enough to be in a carry-on sized travel carrier. Can they ride in the cabin with you? I thought they could, but it may depend between airline to airline.

I don't ship puppies because I like to meet the buyers in person. A lot of people do, and the puppies, if they have a good temperament survive it fine. Also, with the new PUPs legislation, a lot more breeders will refuse to ship puppies to buyers they have not met. 

The puppy mills will continue of course as they have always and it probably will not even cause them a hiccup.


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## imtherookie (Jan 30, 2014)

Carry on would be the way to go and would probably be cheaper than flying the puppy cargo....you are right about meeting the prospective owner but another geographical problem for me, as too many people can't come this far so I am very limited on where my pups can go!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I believe you can carry puppies under the seat but for now, isn't this all hypothetical? I might go to Canada if I were looking for a special dog I could not get elsewhere but for a first GSD who more than likely will be an active pet.....I am certain there are quality local options.

The OP has a dog and seems to be nowhere near getting a puppy so the "search for breeders" is a few years premature. Best to find out the type of GSD (or even at this point if that is the breed) before going all out.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> I believe you can carry puppies under the seat but for now, isn't this all hypothetical? I might go to Canada if I were looking for a special dog I could not get elsewhere but for a first GSD who more than likely will be an active pet.....I am certain there are quality local options.
> 
> The OP has a dog and seems to be nowhere near getting a puppy so the "search for breeders" is a few years premature. Best to find out the type of GSD (or even at this point if that is the breed) before going all out.


Yup no where near getting a Gs at the moment. Now will be looking for training clubs. One problem most classes are during the week.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

imtherookie said:


> Hello everyone, Boom Lake's here....I just want to say I agree whole heartedly with whoever said "How can you judge a breeder if you haven't met them or their dogs" You all don't know me or Kathy from Wild Winds, but my dogs are my pride and have been very special to me, I don't show as I have to work to support them, so I don't have the time nor the money! There is no venue in my area and it would entail too much traveling....AS you all know there is no money to be made in breeding good dogs and my dogs come first!! They do however come from good solid lines that boast many a champion, my clients keep in touch with me, most on a regular basis and I give support as long as they need it! As of yet no dogs have been returned to me due to medical or genetic problems, all my pups are guaranteed and I stand behind it!! My dogs are all raised on a raw and very healthy diet, I am only trying to better the breed that I love, having said that I have to admit I am not so fond of what it has become and I think that as representatives of the breed we should all be more careful about the dogs that we are breeding, sound minds and bodies are most important, to me anyhow!! And I would not ship a pup to California way to stressful!! BC too!!
> Anyhow just wanted to put my 2 cents in as I said earlier you all don't know me, so all minds at ease I hope cause anyone south of the border that wants one of my dogs will have to drive to come get it!!


 
Hello, welcome to the forum. I am going to disagree with you on what is bettering the breed but in the end everything is relative.

If you dont work or compete with your stock you dont know what you have or if its breeding quality. I know Timmins is in the middle of nowhere I actually did some school up there. However, if your going to breed a working dog you need to actually WORK it IMO.

As for Kathy I like some of her dogs, she has a very nice male that has a lot of promise. I wish she would put some of the dogs into working venues where their quality can be proven and showcased.

Ultimately if you dont work your dog in a venue that tests its drives, nerves and breed specific traits you dont know anything about the dog other then its a nice pet.


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## imtherookie (Jan 30, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Hello, welcome to the forum. I am going to disagree with you on what is bettering the breed but in the end everything is relative.
> 
> If you dont work or compete with your stock you dont know what you have or if its breeding quality. I know Timmins is in the middle of nowhere I actually did some school up there. However, if your going to breed a working dog you need to actually WORK it IMO.
> 
> ...


Lol!! I am going to agree with you to a certain extent on that...I live in the bush and surrounded by trees and wild life, my dogs keep us safe, they have the best of all worlds they hunt they guard and they are constantly watching!!!! Most areas and lakes around us have a major problem with wolves and such, I don't.... I have 10 neighbors on my lake none of which have ever been broken into nor had trouble with wildlife...now to you that probably means nothing but to me it means a whole lot!! They don't work in the field but they do for us at home!! Pet absolutely, part of my family, to me it's the next best thing to the working or show ring!!


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

imtherookie said:


> Lol!! I am going to agree with you to a certain extent on that...I live in the bush and surrounded by trees and wild life, my dogs keep us safe, they have the best of all worlds they hunt they guard and they are constantly watching!!!! Most areas and lakes around us have a major problem with wolves and such, I don't.... I have 10 neighbors on my lake none of which have ever been broken into nor had trouble with wildlife...now to you that probably means nothing but to me it means a whole lot!! They don't work in the field but they do for us at home!! Pet absolutely, part of my family, to me it's the next best thing to the working or show ring!!


So if people have a question about breeders they ate thinking about. Would it be a good idea to talk to the breeders on here for advice or if there are tricky to define irresponsible or responsible? 
Have found some and met one that seems tricky, although her dogs were amazing!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lobo, good breeders don't cut corners. Most people are not independently wealthy and have to work, sometimes multiple jobs, to support their dogs and be able to health test, show, train, title, and breed survey them to the level that represents a strong breeding program. I don't personally believe that *every* breeding dog *must* possess a certain set of titles, but only consider puppies out of dogs without them from people who actually have participated in those venues and have a long history of owning those types of dogs and being active in the breed community.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

imtherookie said:


> Lol!! I am going to agree with you to a certain extent on that...I live in the bush and surrounded by trees and wild life, my dogs keep us safe, they have the best of all worlds they hunt they guard and they are constantly watching!!!! Most areas and lakes around us have a major problem with wolves and such, I don't.... I have 10 neighbors on my lake none of which have ever been broken into nor had trouble with wildlife...now to you that probably means nothing but to me it means a whole lot!! They don't work in the field but they do for us at home!! Pet absolutely, part of my family, to me it's the next best thing to the working or show ring!!


 
Used to live on a farm in an area plagued with Coyote problems that had an American Eskimo dog on the property. The vicious little creature kept all the coyotes ...and people away from the sheep and chickens for years on his own.

What does it all mean? Not much to me..in terms of selecting breeding stock.

Now get someone in a bite suit and have them aggressively approach the property and dogs and video the results and you might have a good start.

I know the OPP have a dog detachment in South Porcupine. Im betting one of the handlers there would be willing to do some decoy work for you.

I dont think you necessarily need titles to breed a dog but until you actively train it in breed appropriate activities you dont know what have.

Fyi: By no means do I consider a show title anything to do with breeding GSDs but thats just me.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

How many breeders are there on this forum?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There are probably a lot of breeders at all levels. But if you ask on the forum about a certain breeder, it is not good form do discuss negatives about someone and, actually, saying negative things about a breeder is against board rules.

For one thing, there are always three sides to an argument "yours, mine, and the truth" and half the time one of the two people involved is not even on the board.

To me the best way to evaluate a breeder on this board is to do a search for their name and send a PM to people with their dogs, but realize you are getting a small sampling. Then we have the guidance on things to look for. I really would not do that until money is in hand and the purchase is visible on the horizon.

It would be more instructive to say, "why do you look for titles" or "why do you look for OFA" and learn about the criteria you use to help evaluate. I have seen some highly esteemed breeders known for their dogs and knowledge slammed because someone with a tiny amount of knowledge "knew better". When you get to where you are going to buy, it is fine to ask "what do you think about this pedigree" or even the breeder and ask for PMs

We have to run a fine line here on breeder bashing as it gets out of hand on other forums. I will say that any breeder who is known to the public is going to have at least one scathing review by a disgruntled customer. Sometimes valid, Sometimes by a person who expects to buy a completely flawless dog (which is nearly impossible and certainly impossible to predict with a puppy) or thinks something perfectly fine is a defect (like the"high drive black sable working line puppy" who (surprise) turns you into a pincushion .


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Sometimes by a person who expects to buy a completely flawless dog (which is nearly impossible and certainly impossible to predict with a puppy) or thinks something perfectly fine is a defect (like the"high drive black sable working line puppy" who (surprise) turns you into a pincushion .



Hahaha... be careful what you ask for, you just may get it 

David Winners


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> It would be more instructive to say, "why do you look for titles" or "why do you look for OFA" and learn about the criteria you use to help evaluate.


This this this this this!!

I've personally developed my standard that I hold breeders to over the last near decade I've been studying dogs. In that time, I've gone back and forth an awful lot in what I view to be ethical breeding, learned an insane amount about health and what the different tests mean (in terms of genetics and passing traits on as opposed to "This breed gets X, this breeder tests for X," without knowing how X is even passed on), and really, really learned that not everything is black and white. I used to have a mental checklist where I felt I NEEDED to see certain things when I looked at a breeder, but then I realized (for me) that a person that has a true understanding of health, a true understanding of temperament, and a CLEAR vision and plan in their breeding (not just throwing dogs together because their titles look good) is much more important than an impressive pedigree. A person that handles their own dog, has raised multiple SchH dogs, and successfully bred (and placed!) previous litters is going to know when it's "ok" to use a dog that hasn't necessarily gotten a high SchH3 yet in breeding rather than the person who just went out and purchased an adult who already had that title.

That's just one little example, but there are definitely people who would wholeheartedly disagree with me on that last statement, and that is great! Everyone needs to develop their OWN ethics and understanding when it comes to breeding. Talking to people about WHY they choose what they choose is much more helpful than a blanket, "Is this breeder ethical, yes or no," because it is SO subjective per person. I think maybe this is where some lines are getting crossed when you're asking about breeders, Lobo, and people keep saying, "Do more research." It's ok to be unsure between working and show lines, for example, but that's why you go and learn as much as you can about those dogs, meet as many different ones as you can from as many lines as you can, and see if you can connect the dogs you prefer. For me, I've worked with many, many different GSDs (I'm a groomer) and have gone to multiple dog shows and went out to visit a SchH group train. For ME, all of the dogs that seemed to exhibit the traits we would be looking for were all working line dogs. So that seemed like a huge clue for me!  

I'm PRETTY sure I've gone off on a tangent! haha But I hope I clarified a little bit on the research end of things.


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## imtherookie (Jan 30, 2014)

LOL!! My nephew's an OPP might be something to consider, I can say that my dogs aren't scared or nervous I have had people enter my husbands shop on occasion when no one was there with no warning, only to be slammed up on the wall with a nice set of canines holding them there never pierced the skin but had nice firm grips!! I think this could be discussed all day long and there is no right or wrong side to it!! I have seen K9 dogs try to tear their handlers apart, a few detachments up north had to get rid of their dogs as they were off the wall and had no control! I like what I have much better ....I can trust my dogs and I know what they will do!! Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everyone wants something different! Most of my pups go to pet homes some have gone to breeders. I love my dogs they are part of our family and that is my curse cause I will probably end up with 101 GSD's cause as they retire they stay here except for a very select few!! If I was younger and had more time and money I probably would have traveled and competed but this is my thing, my alternative....doesn't make it wrong!


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