# Normal litter fighting?



## Picopico91 (Nov 24, 2021)

So I went with a friend to meet a litter of 6 week old GSD pups. She wanted my opinion on them and honestly I’m not sure.

Pups seemed healthy, robust, confident etc however I was concerned about the way the litter interacted:

The puppies were fighting a LOT, not like any puppy tussles I’ve ever seen.. screaming, grabbing and holding on to each other, they needed to be physically broken up several times, the breeder says this is completely normal for GSD pups and that they will be going to their new homes early (7wks) before they start hurting each other. 

IDK what to advise my friend. I’m not familiar with the breed but IDK if the breeder is right about this being normal behaviour. The separating the litter early thing makes me nervous. Can anyone weigh in?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

RUN! Absolutely not normal. Some litters are feistier then others but not to the point where they need to be seperated to prevent injury.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Wow.Ask your friend to imagine one of those little beasts screaming and chomping on her leg.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I hope the new owners are ready. I've seen videos of puppies going after each other and it can sound and look intense, but it's usually quick and then they wander off. Having to send puppies home early before they start hurting each other doesn't sound good. What are the parents like?

Do you have video of the litter?


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

No genuine breeder would let a pup go at 7 weeks to the general public.

Avoid.

Tell your friend to contact the kennel club and also the GSD league of GB or the British Association for German Shepherd Dogs and ask if there are any breeders with litters available or due soon.


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## Picopico91 (Nov 24, 2021)

Thanks all. I was torn because A) their deposit will be lost however I think it’s the right thing to pull out of the sale, and B) the breeder was assuring us this is a good sign/ very normal for GSD pups. One pup was actually hanging off my legs painfully and ragging me, it was very difficult to redirect, they all seemed really precocious in terms of willingness to bite/fight each other. 

Someone asked about parents, not dad but met mum, nervous dog however again breeder said this is normal because she’s not used to people visiting pups… nervous body language, slinking around us but not close enough to touch her, when I sat down she charged up to me and poked my face with her nose before running off… another red flag IMO 

mum does protection work apparently


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

I am also looking for a good breeder, can you share the name of this particular one so that I can avoid? 

From what you have described, I would pass on this breeder too. And if your gut tells you something is off, you should walk away.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Picopico91 said:


> Someone asked about parents, not dad but met mum, nervous dog however again breeder said this is normal because she’s not used to people visiting pups… nervous body language, slinking around us but not close enough to touch her, when I sat down she charged up to me and poked my face with her nose before running off… another red flag IMO
> 
> *mum does protection work apparently*


No way no how. Protection dogs need to be supremely confidant and stable. Even accounting for nerves slinking around and darting away is not something a confidant dog would do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwyllgi said:


> No genuine breeder would let a pup go at 7 weeks to the general public.


This isn't true as a blanket statement. I've seen very good breeders send puppies home at 7 weeks for various reasons. 

However - sending them home at 7 weeks so they don't tear each other up is a very weird statement. 



> One pup was actually hanging off my legs painfully and ragging me, it was very difficult to redirect, they all seemed really precocious in terms of willingness to bite/fight each other.


This is not abnormal. My female was like this. She got a big correction after she bit me one to many times. She's still like this with my male. It's like she has no idea how to play appropropiately. She's very lucky she lives with my super tolerant male. She is not dog aggressive in any way and avoids conflict with other dogs. She just has no idea how to play. LIke the awkward child on the playground that makes poor social decisions. 



> Someone asked about parents, not dad but met mum, nervous dog however again breeder said this is normal because she’s not used to people visiting pups… *nervous body language, slinking around us but not close enough to touch her, when I sat down she charged up to me and poked my face with her nose before running off *


But this ^^^^^ Is a sure sign to run for the hills. Nervy Mom will equal nervy puppies. The mom has a huge influence on them not just genetically but also in imprinting. Even the biting you see goes back to the mom not correcting and teaching bite inhibition to some extent. Just because a dog does protection work doesn't mean they should be bred. If you have the pedigree for this litter, I would like to see it privately.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I would like to see the pedigree too. 7 wks going home is not a red flag. I think, if the pups are not learning bite inhibition it’s better to send them home so the owner will teach it. 

Hanging from the pants is not abnormal. I would come back and interact with puppies at 7 weeks.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> This isn't true as a blanket statement. I've seen very good breeders send puppies home at 7 weeks for various reasons.
> 
> However - sending them home at 7 weeks so they don't tear each other up is a very weird statement.


True, that is why I mentioned the general public. It is frowned upon here for a pup to leave its mother and litter mates before the age of 8 weeks but I do understand that there are exceptions to the rule, the Guide Dogs for the Blind used to prefer the pups at 6 weeks of age.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t go looking at litters too often. I have seen some pretty intense play in some that I have. I’ve seen the occasional tussle but that usually works itself out. I can’t say how bad it is without seeing it. Your description reminds of what my friend called the worst litter ever. She said as puppies these dogs were full on attacking people who came into the area. She said they were aggressive as adult dogs and she hated when they came back for training. So if this litter is like that I would advise you to stay away. It could be normal though. Cion was pretty ferocious when he came home. Not aggression, but he plays pretty rough. Even now Bear and Cion playing can look pretty brutal at times.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

German Shepherds play loudly. It sounds like warfare. GSD puppies bite hard. It's why they are called landsharks.

Faren and her brother -









Faren as an alarm clock -

(I'm dying that this is marked sensitive content. 
For those hesitant to click - its my husband lying on the couch (fully clothed) with Faren lying on top of him.)

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Doesn't sound good by the description of the skittish dam(I would already be out based on that alone) but hard to know what to make of the puppies fighting without at least some video or something. One person's little terror is the next person's perfect play pal.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> German Shepherds play loudly. It sounds like warfare. GSD puppies bite hard. It's why they are called landsharks.
> 
> Faren and her brother -
> View attachment 580602
> ...


Not sure why the second picture read sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18?


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Gwyllgi said:


> Not sure why the second picture read sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18?


We can only speculate the puppy fighting was a bit too gory


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am curious if this litter was raised with their mother?


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

REEHGE said:


> We can only speculate the puppy fighting was a bit too gory


It is just a photo of a gentleman with a GSD resting on top of him, probably trying to wake him up.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Gwyllgi said:


> It is just a photo of a gentleman with a GSD resting on top of him, probably trying to wake him up.


 I was just being a dork sorry haha


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I haven't seen litters that had to be separated at 7 weeks in order not to hurt each other. Even bullies in the litter generally lose interest when the other squeals or doesn't fight back. Mom often steps in. 

*I usually want the bully/biter  and gravitate towards the most confident/aggressive ones lol


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I guess the photo censor interpreted it as two people possibly taking part in adult activities... 

Nerves are highly inheritable - skittish mom equals high risk of skittish pups! And given that the pups like to bite, that would mean possibly a fear biter which is the LAST thing anyone wants!

Even before I got my first GSD, when I saw the mom of some pups slinking behind her owner, and barking at me, I very quickly decided to get the heck out of there! NOT the litter for me!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would skip it and forfeit the deposit or try to get part of it back because the dogs are not suited for a new owner. Experienced GSD owners find the puppies they want because they know how to look and are familiar with breeders and even specific litters and breedings. It’s very difficult for a new, inexperienced owner to choose a first dog because they don’t know what to ask or what to look for. While this is a U.S. site we have enough members where you are and some in the U.S. and Canada experienced with kennels and pedigrees worldwide that we could help her decide on a better choice if she asks.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

Picopico91 said:


> Thanks all. I was torn because A) their deposit will be lost however I think it’s the right thing to pull out of the sale, and B) the breeder was assuring us this is a good sign/ very normal for GSD pups. One pup was actually hanging off my legs painfully and ragging me, it was very difficult to redirect, they all seemed really precocious in terms of willingness to bite/fight each other.
> 
> Someone asked about parents, not dad but met mum, nervous dog however again breeder said this is normal because she’s not used to people visiting pups… nervous body language, slinking around us but not close enough to touch her, when I sat down she charged up to me and poked my face with her nose before running off… another red flag IMO
> 
> mum does protection work apparently


Wow. I have a littter now in Canada and lots of visitors coming over to help socialize the pups. Their mom has zero issues with people being around her 3 weeks old babies. Very confident, open, social female.

I would not buy a puppy from the mother you described.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hexenrudel said:


> I would not buy a puppy from the mother you described.


OP - this is really the bottom line. Genetics are Genetics. The behavior of the litter itself isn't a major concern because what you think is rough, I might think is normal. But the dam is an issue.

We bought a puppy once with a mother that you couldn't get near. We spent 12 years with a neurotic, fearful, mess. Any noise startling her would send her into attack mode at the nearest dog. If you walked by her to quickly, she would be so out of her mind trying to get out of hte way she would run right into walls.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

That would be very concerning. Dams are way too important, and that kind of behavior would have me walking away. 

I remember when I went out to see the litter that Carly was in. The dam followed us around the whole time, with a ball in her mouth. I’m sure she was hoping that someone would play ball with her. There were 10 puppies in that litter, and she was done with the whole thing, lol. Carly grew up to be exactly like her.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The mom's behavior would be the only red flag I needed to turn away, no matter how cute the pups were.


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