# selecting a protection candidate



## berno von der seeweise

when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped. 

but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?


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## David Winners

Happy, open and confident in new places. Food drive. Interest in me and responds to puppy puppy noises. Some prey drive but that's not terribly important at that age as it can come in later. Shield K9 has a good video on YouTube.


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## berno von der seeweise




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## Chip Blasiole

I don't think you can. Some people say they can tell pretty much what the temperament of a pup will be at 8 weeks of age. I don't believe that is at all true and puppies can change quite a bit from 8 weeks to 5 months for example. You can rule out very young pups as candidates. Then you have define what you want to see in a PP dog and have to find a good trainer to train the dog for PP which are as common as hens' teeth.


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## David Winners

The question referred to potential protection candidates. I think you can find puppies that are potential candidates. What that dog will be in 2 years is a crap shoot. You just stack the odds in your favor.


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## David Winners

If I'm in need of a PPD, I'm not starting with a puppy. I'd go to a broker and test green dogs until I found what I wanted or I would buy a finished dog that met my standards and that connected with me.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.
> 
> but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?


My boss always said pick the one with attitude, because you can train it down but you can't train it up.
By attitude he referred to confidence and a bit of swagger. The ones that will push their own limits and yours as well.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> If I'm in need of a PPD, I'm not starting with a puppy. I'd go to a broker and test green dogs until I found what I wanted or I would buy a finished dog that met my standards and that connected with me.


 well, we can't all be you, Chief  some of us have to shop local.


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## Bearshandler

I would look for a dog with strong nerves and a willingness to bite. You don’t need over the top prey drive. You probably don’t need them to show much at all early on. I find it easier to work with and train a young dog in bite work that has some good prey drive. You want the nerves for one, so you don’t end up with a dog that can be run before the fight even begins. I don’t want them to be sound sensitive. I don’t want them to breakdown over new, foreign surfaces. I really like seeing their reactions to a metal grate surface. I don’t want to see them be fearful of unknown people either.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> well, we can't all be you, Chief  some of us have to shop local.


That all depends on what your time is worth. You can source a green dog for less than you can purchase a pup and then raise it up to 16 months old if your time is worth anything. I don't see where shopping local gains you anything over getting a green dog except saving you travel, unless you plan on training with the breeder or something.

If your goal is to have a PPD, then the easiest path to success is to buy a finished dog. The next easiest and probably most frugal is to get a green dog and find the right trainer. If your goal is to raise a PPD yourself, then you need to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> That all depends on what your time is worth. You can source a green dog for less than you can purchase a pup and then raise it up to 16 months old if your time is worth anything. I don't see where shopping local gains you anything over getting a green dog except saving you travel, unless you plan on training with the breeder or something.
> 
> If your goal is to have a PPD, then the easiest path to success is to buy a finished dog. The next easiest and probably most frugal is to get a green dog and find the right trainer. If your goal is to raise a PPD yourself, then you need to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible.


excellent advice for anyone who has somebody to mind the store while they're off shopping green dogs


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> excellent advice for anyone who has somebody to mind the store while they're off shopping green dogs


I imagine it would be the same person minding the store during puppy selection, training/scenario work, socialization to everything imaginable and vet visits.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm just sayin' think_ local litters_. That's the question.


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## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> If your goal is to have a PPD, then the easiest path to success is to buy a finished dog. The next easiest and probably most frugal is to get a green dog and find the right trainer. If your goal is to raise a PPD yourself, then you need to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible.


That advice is true for most venues.


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## Bearshandler

I would also consider the parents. I want to see parents that are able to bring it.


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## Sabis mom

Berno, define protection dog.


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## berno von der seeweise

for the purpose of this discussion, let's say schH and/or psa

if only for the sake of "orthodoxy"









Protection Sports Association Home - PSAK9-AS


WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Join or Renew PSA Today Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA) The Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA)



psak9-as.org


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## Squidwardp

Just curious what happened to the pup who had been in your posts from last spring? Is he still in the picture? 

Would this be an additional dog?


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## berno von der seeweise

actually this is just theoretical so, take your choice. For the sake of this discussion it doesn't matter


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> for the purpose of this discussion, let's say schH and/or psa
> 
> if only for the sake of "orthodoxy"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Protection Sports Association Home - PSAK9-AS
> 
> 
> WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Join or Renew PSA Today Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA) The Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA)
> 
> 
> 
> psak9-as.org


Ok. So a sport dog. That changes things. I have never owned or handled one. Lol. So I will read and hush.


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> Ok. So a sport dog. That changes things. I have never owned or handled one. Lol. So I will read and hush.


 I'm not so sure it really does? At least not as far as the original intended spirit of this thread



berno von der seeweise said:


> when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.
> 
> but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?


 to that I've added the "local litters" caveat, but otherwise the original intent remains unchanged

in other words this isn't about hunting a top tier competition pup at all

only a hopefully correct, functional example of what an avg gsd pup ought to be. In theory at least.



Sabis mom said:


> My boss always said pick the one with attitude, because you can train it down but you can't train it up.
> By attitude he referred to confidence and a bit of swagger. The ones that will push their own limits and yours as well.


 I liked this answer but fear it _may be_ somewhat vague for the uninitiated?

care to elaborate any further?


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## Chip Blasiole

Here is a link about PP for what it is worth. When people make their only income from dogs, sometimes you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## Sabis mom

I have never trained a dog for sport. Or lived with one. I cannot elaborate on the criteria needed for such a venue.
When I was raising litters for work I was looking for the pups that best balanced a natural affinity for humans with a refusal to give up or take no for an answer. I wanted the ballsy little Hellraiser that would try anything once.
I wanted the pup that would fall off the first step and come back with a vengeance.  And do that a hundred times! I looked for the first one to climb out of the box, I liked the ones that you had to wonder if they would survive another day. I am looking for bitey, fighty little demons that seek out human companionship.
Intelligence is also a key, because an actual PPD is going to need a high level of discernment and they can't be one without the other. I like the break in the fence test. A smart pup will find it to get to you. The rest will sit there and cry.


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## IllinoisNative

Sabis mom said:


> I like the break in the fence test. A smart pup will find it to get to you. The rest will sit there and cry.


How about if they go through a screen to get to you without looking for the opening? Because that’s what mine did. He wasn’t going to waste time looking for a break. 😂😂😂


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## Sabis mom

IllinoisNative said:


> How about if they go through a screen to get to you without looking for the opening? Because that’s what mine did. He wasn’t going to waste time looking for a break. 😂😂😂


Sabi did that! Right through the screen. Lol. Wasn't my house either!

We had a section of fencing that was built for this test. The idea was to stand on one side away from the break and have someone bring the pup in. About half would sit directly in front of you and cry, paw at the fence. Some would give up and go away and then you had the ones that would start looking for a way through.


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## MyWifeIsBoss

Just get a really sharp and fearful dog 😂


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## Chip Blasiole

I watched this video for the second time and I think it is filled with good information and reflects how high level selection of dogs and correct training are so important. IMO, the vast majority of people starting or involved with sport or PP are vastly lacking in knowledge and availability of quality training. I read about people wanting to do PP training with their dogs and they just don’t get it. Really good dogs are hard to find.


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## Sabis mom

Chip, I think he raises a ton of good points. A protection dog is a different dog then a pet or a sport dog and I think people, a lot of people, incorrectly assume that a PPD should be really aggressive when the opposite is true.


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## berno von der seeweise

Chip I don't disagree at all, but you have a lot of experience, and according to you, your current situation is practically "meant to be." So it's kind of a perspective thing, or maybe even like a league thing. The op was really meant as more of like an "entry level" human trying to select a "first time" local pup to train for whatever title is easiest to earn @ a typical club. Think "training wheels" here  we're not shopping a new dog for el chapo, and we're not deploying to syria.


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## Chip Blasiole

People are getting misinformation. I saw a video today that after the first mechanical vote counter was used, elections have been rigged ever since. Different topic but same principle. The way we think the world works has nothing to do with how the world works. The dog world is just a microcosm of that hypothesis.


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## berno von der seeweise

personally I'm a vpat guy. I don't doubt for a nanosecond the ability of an expert to "freestyle" a better puppy eval. For me vpat works because it's "strictly formulated." I don't doubt for a nanosecond the ability of an expert to "freestyle" judge a protection trial, either; but most carry a clipboard and a pen. Just like me when I vpat 



http://siriusdog.com/images/articles/pup-test.pdf


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## David Winners

Do top tier trainers use VPAT for puppy selection?


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## berno von der seeweise

LOL I asked you first


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## David Winners

In my experience, no.


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## Sabis mom

We all handle dogs differently and our issues rub off on our dogs so a good dog for one handler may not be for another.
Berno why do you like the VPAT so much?


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## berno von der seeweise

mainly as I said, because it's "strictly formulated" and therefore if done correctly, objective and scientifically sound

level playing field, each pup get's a little scorecard, kinda like a round of golf...


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## berno von der seeweise

If anyone knows of a better standardized curriculum, I'd LOVE to see it, *by all means*


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> In my experience, no.


 did you evaluate many 7 week litters for the military?


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## David Winners

What part of training a living being with thoughts, emotions, drive is truly objective? 

Then why use an objective test?

Work the dog you have. Find out what you like and don't like about that dog. Rinse and repeat. Even better if you get to work lots of dogs, or at least watch them work, in the interim.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> did you evaluate many 7 week litters for the military?


None


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Work the dog you have. Find out what you like and don't like about that dog.


 good advice, but again, purely hypothetical op wherein an "only puppy" is being shopped locally


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## berno von der seeweise

the art of GSD schH1 by [your name here]

chapter one, page one, choosing a 7 week old pup

go


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## David Winners

David Winners said:


> Happy, open and confident in new places. Food drive. Interest in me and responds to puppy puppy noises. Some prey drive but that's not terribly important at that age as it can come in later. Shield K9 has a good video on YouTube.


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## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> I would look for a dog with strong nerves and a willingness to bite. You don’t need over the top prey drive. You probably don’t need them to show much at all early on. I find it easier to work with and train a young dog in bite work that has some good prey drive. You want the nerves for one, so you don’t end up with a dog that can be run before the fight even begins. I don’t want them to be sound sensitive. I don’t want them to breakdown over new, foreign surfaces. I really like seeing their reactions to a metal grate surface. I don’t want to see them be fearful of unknown people either.


I kinda think maybe I've used the term "prey drive" incorrectly around here? I say this because recently it occurred to me I got no use for a 7 week ball chaser in and of itself. I'm FAR more interested in the ones that bring it back to me. Genetic obedience?

as for sound sensitivity, dogs are like people. Those who weren't raised around guns naturally get a little nervous. If you wait until after the schH III to fire your 12 gauge over your dog, don't be surprised when he reacts. I call that discernment. I expose a litter up to vpat, but it's your job to follow through after that.


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## David Winners

Go work your dog and learn about GSDs. You sound like a supply clerk that wants to go on patrol because he read the Ranger handbook.


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## berno von der seeweise

thanks for the input. Very helpful. But I don't think she's ready yet


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## Sabis mom

The thing is dogs are living creatures, not golf balls.
In theory Sabi was not the pup I would have selected, and in practice she lacked the drive to be a great working dog. She was a quiet pup, a thinker. You could see the wheels turning at 7 weeks. She watched everything, and I do mean everything. She wasn't given to the normal puppy outbursts or foolishness, but she was fearless and adventurous. In theory I would have passed her by in selection. She taught me an important lesson. There is an essential something about some dogs that is not quantifiable. She proved to be the best dog I ever put hands on. I could have sold her a dozen times. My boss swore the only flaw she had was that he didn't own her.
You can only use a clipboard so far, the rest is instinct and sometimes just luck. You can study the genetics, you can rate the responses but the rest is seeing, really seeing, the animal itself.
And a 12 gauge? Trans Am backfired next to Sabs and Lex when my hubby tried to start it. Sabi was about a year old. Sabi moved closer, didn't even flinch. They don't require exposure, sound sensitivity shows early.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> thanks for the input. Very helpful. But I don't think she's ready yet
> 
> View attachment 565927
> 
> 
> View attachment 565927


Says the BYB. What have you done with her sire besides evaluate his ability to withstand austere conditions and bite mechanics?


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## berno von der seeweise

well I bred him? the sum of the genetics are greater than that expressed in a parent, but that's another thread.


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> You can only use a clipboard so far, the rest is instinct and sometimes just luck.


agreed



Sabis mom said:


> And a 12 gauge? Trans Am backfired next to Sabs and Lex when my hubby tried to start it. Sabi was about a year old. Sabi moved closer, didn't even flinch. They don't require exposure, sound sensitivity shows early.


inherent sound sensitivity shows before vpat, but again, it's up to the adopter to follow through w/ regular exposure

the same may be said of the sporting group. not a big deal.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> well I bred him? the sum of the genetics are greater than that expressed in a parent, but that's another thread.


Oh of course! You bred a dog that you were unhappy with his prey drive and have not trained to do anything to a dog of another breed that you found impressive in grip.

Does that sound like a roadmap to success when you really think about it?

Do you think successful breeders in the venue you wish to perform choose breeding stock in this manner?


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## berno von der seeweise

this is my venue, but I don't understand what any of that has to do with the op?

and what do you mean "austere" conditions? you always say that but I never know what you're talking about? like I'm supposed to make a pet out of him?


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## David Winners

You defined the venue. SCH/PSA.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> You defined the venue. SCH/PSA.


right. Op. theoretical. Not me. I'm a vpat guy. everybody knows that.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> right. Op. theoretical. Not me. I'm a vpat guy. everybody knows that.


You asked the question. How is that not you?


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## berno von der seeweise

berno von der seeweise said:


> when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.
> 
> but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?


see? "reputable." as in theoretical. hypothetical even 

don't make me get out my pirate flag again


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## berno von der seeweise

berno von der seeweise said:


> for the purpose of this discussion, let's say schH and/or psa
> 
> if only for the sake of "orthodoxy"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Protection Sports Association Home - PSAK9-AS
> 
> 
> WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Join or Renew PSA Today Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA) The Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA)
> 
> 
> 
> psak9-as.org


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> see? "reputable." as in theoretical. hypothetical even
> 
> don't make me get out my pirate flag again


You didn't say "reputable" you said reputable. You didn't say hypothetical or theatrical. If you want information, you have to provide information, not hyperbole or conjecture.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> You didn't say "reputable" you said reputable. You didn't say hypothetical or theatrical. If you want information, you have to provide information, not hyperbole or conjecture.


no, Chief, the op was theoretical, as I clearly stated; and as usual, you had to make it personal, at which point reputable became "reputable"

but that's ok


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> no, Chief, the op was theoretical, as I clearly stated; and as usual, you had to make it personal, at which point reputable became "reputable"
> 
> but that's ok


Carry on chief. And where was anything personal?


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## berno von der seeweise

maybe I took it wrong?


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## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> I kinda think maybe I've used the term "prey drive" incorrectly around here? I say this because recently it occurred to me I got no use for a 7 week ball chaser in and of itself. I'm FAR more interested in the ones that bring it back to me. Genetic obedience?
> 
> as for sound sensitivity, dogs are like people. Those who weren't raised around guns naturally get a little nervous. If you wait until after the schH III to fire your 12 gauge over your dog, don't be surprised when he reacts. I call that discernment. I expose a litter up to vpat, but it's your job to follow through after that.


Prey drive brings a lot of benefits. As for sound sensitivity, it’s not comparable between humans and dogs. Humans are born with two natural fears, falling and loud sounds. Everything else is learned. Dogs don’t necessarily start off with those same fears. You can desensitize a dog to loud sounds, but I’d rather work with a dog that has it naturally. When you have to train for things like that, they sometimes have a habit of popping back up. When I was young, I was under the assumption that all dogs had sound sensitivity issues just like all dogs had food aggression issues. I’ve since learned that is not the case, and I can just start off with a better dog. There’s a lot of things I can get a dog to do with training. It’s easier to start with a dog that does it naturally.


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## Chip Blasiole

The vpat is as useless as teats on a boar.


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## Sabis mom

Since David mentioned it. The puppy puppy call that you use to entice them to come/follow. In my 50 years on the planet I have had one pup ignore that noise. One that would actually romp off in the other direction. She is laying by my feet. It makes her exceptionally difficult to work with. So any dog that ignores that call probably isn't a candidate for anything.


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## Roscoe618

To the OP, I just saw a post on IG from a breeder (I think reputable) who are getting 4 Czech males imported this week claiming they are great PD prospects. They are asking too much money (between $4700 and $5500)...don't know why so much.
Anyway, PM if you want the breeder's name.


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## berno von der seeweise

@ 49 dys old, vpat is all I got? I can only screen and expose "sound sensitivity" up to there. As with the gundog breeds/sporting group, I certainly won't begin with a gunshy pup, but I follow through w/ lots of exposure. 

neighbor of mine got a golden last summer, never exposed. Early this summer did a little trap shooting, dog didn't know quite what to make of it. Couple weeks later brought his young grandkids up for some more trap shooting, dog took right to it. And they all lived happily ever after. The end. 

I keep reading the phrase "over the top prey" but I don't think I've ever actually seen that myself here? anybody care to define "bite drive" vs "prey drive" for me?


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## Kazel

My byb mix has never flinched at fireworks or gun shots. I don’t necessarily dislike a dog that is momentarily startled and recovers (I have one like that now) but my other 5 dogs that I’ve had over the years that are not bothered at all without any work done to ensure that, well I’d vastly prefer that from both an owning and breeding to pass on genetics standpoint.

I would imagine but I could be wrong because I have no experience. That you would want the puppy the least reactive to sounds or interested vs. scared because as another said if you have to train/manage behaviors they don’t just go away. And especially with something like that you never know when it might make its appearance. You don’t want it to be when a guy has just shot a gun off next to you. Or you happen to be out walking/working etc. when a thunderstorm starts. Drive can overcome sound sensitive if it’s high enough, but only to a degree and only when that drive is engaged and it can still snap a dog out of drive momentarily. (Sound sensitive border collies come to mind.)


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## Bearshandler

Bite drive is something you just made up. I’ve never seen anyone here use it. When I say prey drive, I’m referring to the dogs desire to chase, grab, and kill. Here are some dogs with over the top drive.


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## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> Bite drive is something you just made up.


 no, BH, I don't make stuff up 

"bite drive" was recently mentioned by a reputable source, but I don't know the difference between it and prey?


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## berno von der seeweise

prior to wean I create a "happy time" association between target practice and feeding time. Works well.

@ wean, or perhaps shortly thereafter, any individual fails to get with the program is dismissed as unsuitable

sooner the better. get it over with. Time is finite. Resources are finite. You can't devote ether or to an unsuitable individual without putting the rest @ a disadvantage. Do your duty and put it behind you.


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## Bearshandler

He says some variation of this in multiple videos.


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## Pytheis

berno von der seeweise said:


> prior to wean I create a "happy time" association between target practice and feeding time. Works well.
> 
> @ wean, or perhaps shortly thereafter, any individual fails to get with the program is dismissed as unsuitable
> 
> sooner the better. get it over with. Time is finite. Resources are finite. You can't devote ether or to an unsuitable individual without putting the rest @ a disadvantage. Do your duty and put it behind you.


Wait, are you talking about actually culling puppies that don’t meet your ridiculous standards?


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## LuvShepherds

What is the big deal about VPAT? It’s only as good as the person doing the test. It’s only one small tool in evaluating a puppy. I never asked the last breeder if she used it. I didn’t care. I would not have ignored the results, though, if they were offered. If a breeder knows their own lines and what they are breeding for and what they are getting, they don’t need an unstandard standarized test.


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## berno von der seeweise

the big deal about vpat is, if you use it to select, and then backross/linebreed a couple/few generations accordingly, you get consistency

but yeah, without the backcross/linebreed, _SUDDENLY_ the big "gsd crapshoot" everybody keeps talking about makes all the sense in the world. Watching ellis' vid just flipped that lightswitch in berno's mind here

and all that makes berno's experiments _even more_ funner 









Studies of modern Italian dog populations reveal multiple patterns for domestic breed evolution


Through thousands of years of breeding and strong human selection, the dog (Canis lupus familiaris) exists today within hundreds of closed populations throughout the world, each with defined phenotypes. A singular geographic region with broad diversity ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





I think I _might _cross little igor to a proven locally adapted strain of maremma, backcross the offspring both ways, and recombine the results. I saw it done successfully with wgsd x kuvasz when I was a kid.


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## Chip Blasiole

Didn’t watch the video but have heard Ellis talk about bite drive where a dog is almost obsessed and gets great satisfaction from biting objects and keeping them in his mouth. More of a Mal thing but I know of one GSD that would repeated destroy the black Kongs in a day or two. While technically it might not be a drive, Ellis is very good with coming up with descriptive traits that are operationally defined. We have a very nice XMal in our club that is social but at risk for biting in certain situations if he doesn’t have a ball in his mouth.


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## berno von der seeweise

lovely to finally see you weigh in on the subject, Countess...

slightly OT, but I've seen MAWL in her jammies!!! 

just sayin'...


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## dogma13

@berno von der seeweise no more discussion of your plans for the "unsuitable" pups at all.


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## berno von der seeweise

of course not, Your Honor. Always happy to comply.


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## Chip Blasiole

I think it is a misconception that Mals/XMals are as if on crack/cocaine/meth etc. The good ones need experienced handlers or coaching from experienced trainers/handlers. They need to be trained/worked and are not suitable solely as a pet. When you see a well trained one with good genetics, it is like an Olympic gymnast. They are super fast in everything they do and are powerful at sticking a bite, even if they are small. They have poor specimens like any breed but a really good one is special. They are often very social. They just don’t have that noble look of a GSD for many, but some do. Also, it is not uncommon for their extreme drive to mask nerve problems, whereas with a GSD nerve issues are largely apparent even when dogs are successful at high sport.


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## berno von der seeweise

Beauty's in the eye of the beholder. Speaking of looks, those x don't look typical to me? different somehow? I feel like my eye doesn't detect the usual ddr/z ps influences? west german, maybe? Commercial breeders need a dam with good maternal instincts and qualities. Those come at the expense of other drives and traits. To me those look like bsd sired gsd backcrosses? Dare I speculate there may be highline dam somewhere bottom right in those peds?

If nothing else, anyone who endured long enough to read this far should at least come away from the experience with this much. Always, _ALWAYS_ think speak write type sire first . In other words it's always hektor x flora, never flora x hektor. Make a point of correcting yourself and you'll pick it right up in no time. Nothing whatsoever to do with patriarchy or popular sire. It's only an elementary matter of reading/understanding english left to right, top to bottom. When you train your brain to cruise control on "sire first" the rest will begin falling into place.


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## Chip Blasiole

Berno,
What is it you are trying to accomplish? I have said it before but it is as I f your are saying , “I’m not a dog trainer but I did spend the night in a Holiday Express.”


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## berno von der seeweise

any chance you'll ever cross your gsd x a bsd, Chip?

I'd travel to get me one of them pups, yo!


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## berno von der seeweise

don't need no vpat, just gimme the biggest available female


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Is a bsd a Belgian Shepherd Dog?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

sorry, yes, by "bsd" I meant a malinois


----------



## berno von der seeweise

LOLOL I can hook you up with some papers for that too, yo!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Before I’d consider breeding my dog, he would have to have at least a PSA 1 and I would further test him. Then hip, elbow and spine x-rays. Then, I don’t know any bsd breeders that would be interested.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

what if a malinois breeder approached you on the side and said "we don't need no xrays"


----------



## berno von der seeweise

just hypothetically, I mean


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## Chip Blasiole

It would be irresponsible to not do x-rays even though I don’t know that science supports it. There are frequent breedings of two great dogs that produce crap and vice versa.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

there's never any good reason not to get all the screens for a purebred litter

but crossbreeding is a little different. Far less risk, and the owner of the dam assumes all responsibility


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

....


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> there's never any good reason not to get all the screens for a purebred litter
> 
> but crossbreeding is a little different. Far less risk, and the owner of the dam assumes all responsibility


The buyer assumes all responsibility.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

buyer you mean like commercial? pet trade?

is there even a market for such pups?

I assume not?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I assume such crosses get xrayed themselves later on as green dogs? that's part of procurement.

good xray on a parent don't mean nothin' in the green dog market


----------



## berno von der seeweise

totally ot but interesting









Call for U.S.-Bred War Dogs Grows to End ‘Outsourced’ Security | Bloomberg Government


They are some of the fiercest, most specialized weapons in the U.S. military’s arsenal. They also are in increasingly short supply and carry a high price tag, leaving the Pentagon to fend off the highest bidders around the world.




about.bgov.com


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> buyer you mean like commercial? pet trade?
> 
> is there even a market for such pups?
> 
> I assume not?


The buyer who gets a dog with no guarantees.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

who buys a 49 day old f1 gsdxbsd ?

it's not a money making scheme, BH. No money to be made in that at all.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

if you say so? I guess some people do pay a lot of money for f1 labradoodles, so I really can't argue?

holey cats I just googled it...









Camelot German Shepherds


Our Next Shepinois litter will be late winter or early 2021.



www.camelotshepherds.com





apparently it's a designer breed now? not exactly what I had in mind.... but those titles are legit. Note the difference between _that type_ and the thumbnail I posted. The ones in the thumbnail look weird to me?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'm not quite sure what you mean? 

dogs just aren't about money for me. That would take all the fun out of it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you mean the thumbnail? I wouldn't call those "mediocre."

as for "dime a dozen" LOL you obviously don't understand the barn dog "market"


----------



## Bearshandler

I wouldn’t consider them because there are venues I want to compete in that they can’t. The papers don’t mean quality, and lack of papers doesn’t mean a lack of quality. Remember the knpv dogs are mutts. What I care about is the quality of the dog. If those dog come back unhealthy or flat out suck, what cost does the breeder bear? It’s the buyer who pays. What is it you expect to produce with one of these crosses?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> what is it you expect to produce with one of these crosses?


6/8, BH. In order for anyone, anywhere to backcross, somebody, somewhere has to outbreed.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Good to see you found another picture to obsess over.


 it's an interesting foto. Radical departure from the usual suspects, to my eye.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> 6/8, BH. In order for anyone, anywhere to backcross, somebody, somewhere has to outbreed.


There’s plenty of dogs to cross to within the breed,


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't see what's so "wrong" with that breeder? all things considered they look ok to me?

what I've done remains to be seen, MAWL. Could go either way. We'll know soon.

in any case, money never even entered into it


----------



## Chip Blasiole

$14,000 for a Doodle in my area. It’s like Robin Williams said that cocaine use is God’s way of telling you you have too much money.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

they got couple psa 1's. I think it's prolly safe to say that's better than most ...



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Getting a good one is going to hinge heavily on a miracle.


 I'll keep you posted


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

buncha pdc's too, so.... here ya go, Countess 









Glasses - Buy Prescription Glasses Online from $6 | Eyebuydirect


Shop for high-quality glasses and sunglasses at EyeBuyDirect.com, Starting at just $6. See our huge selection of prescription eyewear in our online store now.




www.eyebuydirect.com





I didn't "select" that breeder. I just googled and it came up top

"mr lucky" strikes again! I've been on a roll lately.

somebody get Dogma! It's time for me to be put back in my crate.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are they friends of yours?


lol not anymore


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Crossbreeding combines the health risks of both breeds compounding health issues.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Outbreeding can be done within the breed





Bearshandler said:


> There’s plenty of dogs to cross to within the breed,


ok, so then, what's the story with these?










if there were no advantage, why would anyone cross them? why would lackland procure and deploy the product? there has to be good reason...

gsd was originally a composite breeding system (swabian/wurttemberger/thuringian/etc) and the historical va list illustrates those various types were alternately awarded for 50 yrs. One may only assume because that's what worked.

Today some commercial breeders occasionally use the same composite strategy (bsd/dsd/gsd) therefore it seems only logical in my opinion to assume they do so for the same reason

no?


----------



## David Winners

No comment on the shallow bites from berno?

Shocking.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

don't anybody get me wrong now. I'm not suggesting gsdxbsd is some "instant magic formula"

there's a lot more goes into it than that, I guarantee



David Winners said:


> No comment on the shallow bites from berno?
> 
> Shocking.


 well sportbites they ain't, but who am I to question lackland?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

After a combined 21 years of service, these military working dogs got the sendoff they deserve


Two military working dogs retired on March 14 after 21 years of service in the 20th Security Forces Squadron.




www.airforcetimes.com





I wouldn't be surprised to find out those two were littermates


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

oh yes, I do, Countess. You can't just cross one breed to another and call it "improvement" because there won't be any consistency. Outbred litters are all over the place.

winners, you commented one time you "wouldn't want to live with one" of those

I can't comment on "those" specifically, but a dog spends first year or two of it's life mostly alone in a kennel is radically different than the same dog hand reared by a breeder with less pups and more time

"imprinting"


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> oh yes, I do, Countess. You can't just cross one breed to another and call it "improvement" because there won't be any consistency. Outbred litters are all over the place.
> 
> winners, you commented one time you "wouldn't are to live with one" of those
> 
> I can't comment on "those" specifically, but a dog spends first year or two of it's life mostly alone in a kennel is radically different than the same dog hand reared by a breeder with less pups and more time
> 
> "imprinting"


Thank you so much for this pearl of wisdom. If only I had an inkling of how to imprint a puppy I would be all set.

How about a video.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Thank you so much for this pearl of wisdom.


 well you're the one who said it, and I'm still trying to figure out what you meant



MineAreWorkingline said:


> And you would be wrong about outcrossing. If both dogs of different breeds carry the similar traits, so will the puppies.


 theoretically perhaps, but just how similar are bsd to gsd? I'm confident it's not quite that simple. 

not rocket science, but more to it than simply 1+2 = 3.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

people, lets try not to get confused here. This has nothing whatsoever to do with me or my muttpups.

we're talking about the real dogs in the photo, ok?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Countess? Are you talking to me or David?


You have been promoted.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Ouch!


I think it was a compliment. I could be wrong. Much of what he says doesn’t make any sense to me anyway, although it’s entertaining on an otherwise boring afternoon.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

what do you mean "bring in?" I don't follow? I have enough experience to know you won't get enough consistency to make a living off DOD. Consistency comes from proper selection x backcrossing.

did I forget to mention MAWL is a real Czech Countess?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> ok, so then, what's the story with these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if there were no advantage, why would anyone cross them? why would lackland procure and deploy the product? there has to be good reason...
> 
> gsd was originally a composite breeding system (swabian/wurttemberger/thuringian/etc) and the historical va list illustrates those various types were alternately awarded for 50 yrs. One may only assume because that's what worked.
> 
> Today some commercial breeders occasionally use the same composite strategy (bsd/dsd/gsd) therefore it seems only logical in my opinion to assume they do so for the same reason
> 
> no?


It has been tried many times. If it were producing anything worth while, it would probably be a lot more common.


LuvShepherds said:


> I think it was a compliment. I could be wrong. Much of what he says doesn’t make any sense to me anyway, although it’s entertaining on an otherwise boring afternoon.


🤣🤣


----------



## Bearshandler

Berno tell me about this protection/bitework imprinting you do. What’s your success rate. I always thought imprinting was something for livestock guarding. Also what’s Igor bite like? Do you have any plans to actually work him, or just produce mutts?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You don't have to linebreed to get consistency. You do have to know the dogs in the pedigrees and what they bring to the table AND have an honest evaluation of the dogs in front of you by someone skilled and experienced to do so.


 eh, maybe kinda sorta_ technically_, but that's really not a recipe for success. More than one per litter my be deemed suitable for different deployments; but you'll get actual repeatable consistency via recombination (backcrosses).

that's just a universal truth throughout the agriculture spectrum



Bearshandler said:


> It has been tried many times. If it were producing anything worth while, it would probably be a lot more common.


 I think as far as simply crossing gsd x bsd (aka "terminal sire") BH has to be correct. I mean there's a best in every litter, sure; but you wanna raise a whole litter just to sell DOD that one? Far more efficient to backcross and find matings which yield multiple get. See? so the idea is to boil that "big DOD formula" down as best you can, and use it to your advantage. Not much different than purebreeding, really. 

just as a point of fact, MAWL is actually a_ Carpathian _Countess. I did her genealogy. 

yes you are. Stop it.


----------



## LuvShepherds

MAWL is from the mountains?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> Do you have any plans to actually work him, or just produce mutts?


I like to inbreed, BH, and I don't think purebred gsd will stand much of that, so prolly just mutts for me We'll see? the berno forumla is really simple. Inbreed too far, then take a step back.

DOB like a week ago? I know I wrote it down somewhere? imprinting begins @ wean, VPAT scheduled appx jan 2 (subtract 49 days = DOB)


----------



## berno von der seeweise

LuvShepherds said:


> MAWL is from the mountains?


I'm not allowed to talk about it. She put a gag order on me.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## David Winners

There is no DoD formula for crosses. They don't do it. They rarely get a cross that passes testing and enters service. They come from Holland.

Most are very aggressive and are not suited for civilian life.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

ok so, little confusing, I keep jumping from me and my muttpups to talking about procurement and back

 OBVIOUSLY never the twain' shall meet .

nevertheless the basic principles of rational breeding apply









Call for U.S.-Bred War Dogs Grows to End ‘Outsourced’ Security | Bloomberg Government


They are some of the fiercest, most specialized weapons in the U.S. military’s arsenal. They also are in increasingly short supply and carry a high price tag, leaving the Pentagon to fend off the highest bidders around the world.




about.bgov.com


----------



## Sabis mom

Berno you start the strangest conversations and discuss the most bizarre things. It's highly entertaining when I'm bored, but I have to ask do you even like dogs? At all? We already know you dislike German Shepherds, and I think little Igor needs to come cuddle on my couch.
I have a couch now! Sort of. Well a cheap futon. Close enough. 
What I don't have is a "Y" key on my laptop. Shadow was doing some research and broke it so every time I type y I have to wiggle the key around to make it work. Very annoying. But yes, Igor needs to come get some mama cuddles.


----------



## Bearshandler

Not many American breeders have a set up to consistently supply dogs to the military. If they want a system to produce home grown Military dogs outside of what they have at lack land, they need to set up something like the KNPV.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

just between you and I, BH  supplying the military is way beyond the scope of my expertise


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> just between you and I, BH  supplying the military is way beyond the scope of my expertise


Beyond mine too, I’m kinda maxed out at 2.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

we'll see what kinda grips I can get out of these frosty little muttcicles in a few weeks

?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

*"After the second world war there was definitely a need for some fresh blood, and dogs of unknown background, along with some Belgian Malinois, were suggested for the shorthaired version, and Tervurens for the longhair. One thing was for sure however, nobody had any desire to breed to German Shepherds again since that little episode before the first world war had taken several years to straighten back out."* 
This quote is in reference to the early days of the Dutch Shepherd when DS's, Mals and GSDs were cross bred to. Another article I read said that crossing DS's/Mals to GSDs was a disaster.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

"After World War I and World War II, the numbers of many dogs including the Dutch Shepherd were low. As a result, the breed was again crossed with Belgium Shepherds to help increase the population in a healthy manner. Although some crosses were again made with German Shepherds, they did not work well and were eventually abandoned. Over the next century, breeders refined and and developed the Dutch Shepherd breed into what you see today."


----------



## Damicodric

Berno.

Gotta ask.

Are you more inclined to hide a needle in a haystack or would you build a haystack around a needle?


----------



## DHau

I read all the posts and the only thing that I want to know is how do you pick your own puppy out of a litter? From my limited experience with dealing with breeders is that they want to match the dog up according to your needs and lifestyle.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

You are putting the cart before the horse. You need to understand what a real protection dog is and if that is what you want and if you can handler the dog, which I doubt or you would not be asking this question. Then you need to learn about dogs/lines that tend to produce the type of dog you are looking for. Then you have to find a breeder willing to sell you the type of pup you are looking for. I would try to find a competent PP dog trainer, and good luck with that. A good one will know where you can probably find a candidate. But if you have little to no experience, this is probably not the dog for you.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Damicodric said:


> Are you more inclined to hide a needle in a haystack or would you build a haystack around a needle?


 the more you recombine (inbreed/linebreed) the more needles you get



DHau said:


> I read all the posts and the only thing that I want to know is how do you pick your own puppy out of a litter? From my limited experience with dealing with breeders is that they want to match the dog up according to your needs and lifestyle.


 some breeders actually know what they're doing with that...

Like Chip said earlier, I'm not an expert, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. Actually I slept in the truck out back  Winners gave a pretty good answer top page one. Personally I put a little more emphasis on prey and a little less on food drive, but he's the expert. I can't train my way out of a wet paper bag. For me it's as simple as either a dog wants to or it don't, and I don't waste much time with the ones that don't.

Please continue, Chip.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

before I forget again, a highly respected source casually mentioned in passing recently that bad guys don't respect little private sector mals all that much. Now that's just one expert's opinion, so, not necessarily a "universal truth."

just something to consider when comparing flashy little bsd apples to BIG BAD gsd oranges...


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Does your “highly respected source” sell GSDs? There are plenty of medium/upper medium size Mals that are man stoppers.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

A child might want to learn to read but if you don’t teach them how they won’t.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

tarzan taught himself to read. Might be a good name for a pup? anyway I'm seriously trying to think of a good breed to cross now. I'd just as soon leave the bsd/dsd stuff to the experts. My kid's convinced she see's enough diversity between little igor and the longcoats. If she invests in one we'll give that a go. Personally I'd rather reach a little further outside the box because doing so _MAY_ allow me to backbreed a little tighter.

anybody got any thoughts on something like this? anybody ever seen a gsd cross?






bear in mind I'm not looking to set the world on fire here

I'm only batting ideas around...


----------



## David Winners

I thought you were closing a pup from a local breeder


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I thought you were closing a pup from a local breeder


🤣🤣🤣 What do you think he is? Your friendly neighborhood dog dealer.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'll have access to a cross. I'm just not sure if I want to mess with it? I mean they do share haplotype signatures, but I don't know? I'm really kinda diggin' on the maremma's rusticity, and my gut says stick with pure alpine genetics. No hungarian, no spanish, and none of that flatlander stuff.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣🤣 What do you think he is? Your friendly neighborhood dog dealer.


1 out of 3 ain't bad.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you know it's like that other cross I did. I mean that was a cool dog. WEIRD! but cool. I still have dibs on my pick female, but there's probably hungarian and poodle and who knows what all way back in that ped? so I'm a little leery about that introgression. You get whatever you inbreed, and stuff like that begins to emerge when the peds line up. 

if I were a dog dealer I'd be lurkin' w/ all the other dog dealers. But by all means, you gents have a few laughs on me. I'll be swingin' muttpups on my lucky 'ol beansack soon enough here


----------



## dogma13

Pssst ...berno.Tarzan isn't a real person.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

no, tarzan was a real guy?!? wasn't he? maybe that was conan? robin hood?


----------



## Bearshandler

I don't see any reason to grill you berno on your breeding. Its not hard to tell where I stand based on my posts here. I doubt you find any good prospects from that breeding you did. I'd be willing the bet the price of a quality pup on it.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

please define "good" BH 

just kidding. As BH and I agreed earlier, it's not near as simple as 1+2 = schH3. You can't just put 2 dogs together and call it "improvement." You have to follow through. Whether or not I'll even keep back remains to be seen. Meanwhile, given the genetic potential involved, I am cautiously optimistic about what may be out in the box. They seem to be growing pretty good, so far.

And I'm here to be grilled, BH. That's the whole point. No offense intended, but this consortium is as close as I'm going to get to "peer review."


----------



## David Winners

berno, the biggest piece of advice I can give you is to go to Mike at LHK and get a serous working dog. Then take that dog to PSA1. Live with it for 4 years, continually training, and then decide what you think is a good dog.

You are trying to be a chef without ever tasting good food. Trying to be an artist but only using coloring books. Trying to be a musician without ever listening to Dream Theater.

You have this picture in your head that has no basis in reality, and you are producing animals that may harm others and / or die because of your ignorance.


----------



## Bearshandler

I have an 8 month old. Environmentally sound, social, highly confident, driven, intense in just about everything he does. Very pack oriented, easy to train. inquisitive, focused, little back down. Willing to bite anything he's allowed. Has a full grip you can feel through a competition sleeve. That is a good prospect to me.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I have an 8 month old. Environmentally sound, social, highly confident, driven, intense in just about everything he does. Very pack oriented, easy to train. inquisitive, focused, little back down. Willing to bite anything he's allowed. Has a full grip you can feel through a competition sleeve. That is a good prospect to me.


Are you going to breed him to a poodle mix any time soon?


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Are you going to breed him to a poodle mix any time soon?


Uh no. He still hasn't proven he's worth breeding, still just a prospect. I probably wouldn't ever even consider breeding to something like that. I don't even know what would be produced from that, which is a big issue. Dogs with the potential to be serious aren't something to be played with. Not to mention, I'd probably be disowned by everyone I respect. Not to mention his breeder banging on my door.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Uh no. He still hasn't proven he's worth breeding, still just a prospect. I probably wouldn't ever even consider breeding to something like that. I don't even know what would be produced from that, which is a big issue. Dogs with the potential to be serious aren't something to be played with. Not to mention, I'd probably be disowned by everyone I respect. Not to mention his breeder banging on my door.


I apologize if my sarcasm failed to convey through my post. 

I certainly wouldn't expect you to produce mutts just to see that happened.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I apologize if my sarcasm failed to convey through my post.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't expect you to produce mutts just to see that happened.


It did. It was more for someone else than you. You can't see my laugh through text.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Had three LHK pups at club tonight. All very stable, social and very good prey drive. Still need training though. And the training has to be good. What is good for sport is probably not good for a police dog. A police dog doesn’t need a full, calm grip. You want an operationally apprehension dog to rebite anywhere if the dog looses the grip.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> Had three LHK pups at club tonight. All very stable, social and very good prey drive. Still need training though. And the training has to be good. What is good for sport is probably not good for a police dog. A police dog doesn’t need a full, calm grip. You want an operationally apprehension dog to rebite anywhere if the dog looses the grip.


Mike strives for a particular dog. 

And I agree that bite mechanics mean nothing to a dog on the street. Fight mechanics win.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Are you going to breed him to a poodle mix any time soon?


no, purebred. At their convenience. Poodle is a really good study because like gsd, major bottlenecks, major health issues. No idea what they have planned, but I'd be cautiously optimistic about what a fieldbred cross might yield? For them, I mean.

purebreeding is inbreeding. One may not effectively "outbreed" within a closed population. Improved breeding is the effective management of inbreeding depression. The key to that, in my experience, is to deliberately concentrate inbreeding right where you want it, in order to observe the result. No guesswork. You know right where it is, you know right where it came from, so it's easy to manage accordingly. Whereas, pretending to outbreed within closed population is entirely variable. Either way, you're inbreeding. Either way, no randoms, only variables. Inbreeding is simply the lesser of two variables.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Yes. With one of his good prospects, you can take the dog either way with the right training. He is honest in that some of his breedings are washouts because no breeder produces pups that are all good.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Berno,
I think you know what you are saying is mental masturbation. Don’t delete masturbation because it is normal. David said it well. It is analogous to the notion that you own a car and want to improve on the Maserati.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> Yes. With one of his good prospects, you can take the dog either way with the right training. He is honest in that some of his breedings are washouts because no breeder produces pups that are all good.


Mike is really honest about his dogs and has a good grasp on the sport and working worlds.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't know, man? looking at these results, seems like gsd blood is doing quite a bit of the work and getting almost no credit. But if you guys are happy, I'm happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 29. FCI WM 2019 - IGP3 Results
> 
> 
> All 29. FCI WM 2019 - IGP3 results at a glance. Overview with the most important event information and links to dogs and dog trainers.
> 
> 
> 
> en.working-dog.com


SCH is a GSD sport. The ring sports, PSA and MIL/LE venues are more Mal oriented, though there are successful GSDs in these venues as well.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I can't seem to find 2020 results? linux os, so search returns are always iffy... maybe cancelled this year? in terms of breeds by rank, looks like dobe/rott have been more or less less tied for 3rd lately...


----------



## Bearshandler

All the major events for the most part have been cancelled.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

IMO, Dobes and Rotts have been ruined and the GSD could go the same way.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I like both but neither has the coat I require. Winter is a long cold affair here. Anyway I got the lowdown on bsd. Minimum standard for a female is 22" 44lbs. Breeding is an art, and part of the art of breeding bsd is coaxing a medium breed from much smaller parentstocks. Kinda takes all the mystique out of it, right there, eh? All the gsd crossing and backbreeding is simply a matter of utility. I think my vet may have picked one up? I'll know soon enough.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

had a little epiphany with these 50lb sacks of grain here today

even if a little 44lb female clamped onto your arm don't stop ya, she will slow ya down pretty good


----------



## IllinoisNative

This thread is a train wreck. And, like a train wreck, I can’t look away.


----------



## berno von der seeweise




----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 566075
> 
> 
> had a little epiphany with these 50lb sacks of grain here today
> 
> even if a little 44lb female clamped onto your arm don't stop ya, she will slow ya down pretty good


Just consider 44 pounds at 40 mph.

You just don't know what you don't know.

SF guys pick small dogs all the time.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

did I forget to link the video?






@ like 3:00 stonie say he doesn't expect them to do anything

the good ones gonna sit @ that age when you tell it to. genetic obedience. the commands are hardwired. look 'em in the eye, tell 'em, try a hand signal, and praise when it happens. same with retrieve. same with walking on lead. It's never too early. just be gentle . I mean super, super gentle. Because they are fragile @ that age.


----------



## David Winners

Did you skip the luring part of the video or what?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

as for the flirt rag, I like to keep it up off the ground. That forces the ones which want to work for me to use their teeth. 

now this is important, so pay attention: some require drag, and want to step catch w/ the paw. Many of them pick it right up and turn out fine, perfectly normal.

but keep a very close eye on the one/s that just naturally, readily bite a flying target right off. Odds are that's the pick, or one of the picks


----------



## berno von der seeweise

not because a flying bite is "so cool"

only because that inherent tendency tends to suggest other inherent tendencies


----------



## David Winners

berno, do you know how Stonnie used to pick mals when he was into bite work?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't know nothin' 'bout stonie

but I KNOW breeders are lurking who know a lot more than me

and I wish they'd speak up


----------



## Bearshandler

Berno I think you’re right. My puppy came home with a sit stay and recall like he’d be trained for 8 years. I can only assume it’s all the crossing to dogs known for throwing great obedience. Or maybe the I took advantage of some natural behaviors. I like the first one better.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

so like, we shouldn't talk about how to pick a pup in my pick a pup thread?

you want me to quit, BH? don't discuss it. purebreds only?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'd really like to learn what other breeder's pick

IF ANY HAVE THE GUTS...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

getin' near full moon, y'all. Sorry. No offense intended, BH


----------



## Bearshandler

Berno I’m in the navy. You don’t need kid gloves to deal with me. Besides, I grew up playing online games. You’re not topping that without getting a perma banned.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Berno I’m in the navy. You don’t need kid gloves to deal with me. Besides, I grew up playing online games. You’re not topping that without getting a perma banned.


Well, insert multiple seaman jokes here.

It's mandatory. Sorry 

Are you a MA?


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Well, insert multiple seaman jokes here.
> 
> It's mandatory. Sorry
> 
> Are you a MA?


🤣🤣 Can’t say I didn’t see that one coming. Still got me good. Not an MA. I am a nuke.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

thanks for playin' along, BH


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣 Can’t say I didn’t see that one coming. Still got me good. Not an MA. I am a nuke.


I was almost a nuke right out of high school in '91. I was afraid that I wouldn't like it and would be stuck in a sub for 6 years.

Where are you stationed? We are soon to be camping full time, traveling around the country staying at military campgrounds. If you don't want berno stalking you, you can pm me


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I was almost a nuke right out of high school in '91. I was afraid that I wouldn't like it and would be stuck in a sub for 6 years.
> 
> Where are you stationed? We are soon to be camping full time, traveling around the country staying at military campgrounds. If you don't want berno stalking you, you can pm me


Stalk me all he wants. There’s only one way to find out if Bear will actually bite for real. I’m stationed in sunny San Diego. Feel free to hit me up if you’re in this area. That’s a pretty bug change up. You weren’t wrong. Subs suck. I was on a carrier. Much better quality of life.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Stalk me all he wants. There’s only one way to find out if Bear will actually bite for real. I’m stationed in sunny San Diego. Feel free to hit me up if you’re in this area. That’s a pretty bug change up. You weren’t wrong. Subs suck. I was on a carrier. Much better quality of life.


My ASVAB was in line but I changed my mind. I joined the Army when I was 35. Went artillery because I figured I'd be smarter than the average RedLeg and I shot fireworks for 16 years (I like to blow stuff up). Ended up a dog handler because I'm the luckiest ginger I know.

I'll hit you up when we get to sunny SoCal. I may even let Bear bite me just to satisfy your curiosity, unless he gets a berno sandwich first.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I wouldn't dare stalk you without right_ AND _left full size competition sleeves, BH


----------



## Bearshandler

Berno I'll let you know how I began my correspondence with a lot of breeders. Go on working dog. Choose a big time event, like BSP. Look at who the breeders with dog involved are and message them. You'll grow your circle. Or find websites of breeders you like and contact them.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

got a better scent imprint vid, winners?


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> My ASVAB was in line but I changed my mind. I joined the Army when I was 35. Went artillery because I figured I'd be smarter than the average RedLeg and I shot fireworks for 16 years (I like to blow stuff up). Ended up a dog handler because I'm the luckiest ginger I know.
> 
> I'll hit you up when we get to sunny SoCal. I may even let Bear bite me just to satisfy your curiosity, unless he gets a berno sandwich first.


Sounds way more exciting than my day to day. I have a lot of family history in the military. My great granddad who told me to join, what to do when I joined, helped my love of dogs was in the navy during World War II. He had a silver star and a bronze. To this day, nothing he has told me has ever been wrong. That guy was good with any dog. I joined right out of high school. You walk in with way more respect at 35. I'll show some the people I work dogs with around here. Some you already know I think. I'll work Valor all day. I like my padding though.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> I wouldn't dare stalk you without right_ AND _left full size competition sleeves, BH


That will get you bit before I know what's happening.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> got a better scent imprint vid, winners?


Yes


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> got a better scent imprint vid, winners?


Just by the thumbnail, that setup looks eerily familiar. Almost like I've seen it here before.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I know I saw a better one somewhere, but can't seem to find it now

little bitty pups


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Sounds way more exciting than my day to day. I have a lot of family history in the military. My great granddad who told me to join, what to do when I joined, helped my love of dogs was in the navy during World War II. He had a silver star and a bronze. To this day, nothing he has told me has ever been wrong. That guy was good with any dog. I joined right out of high school. You walk in with way more respect at 35. I'll show some the people I work dogs with around here. Some you already know I think. I'll work Valor all day. I like my padding though.


I know a bunch of vets from Korea and VN. My grandfather was a WWII vet. They had it tougher than I'll ever understand and I listen closely to those guys because they have real world experience and a deep sense of duty and respect.

Joining at 35 had advantages and disadvantages. I came from a supervisor position where I had 100 employees, to being a private. That was a swift kick for sure, but I understood the game. I enjoyed some great leadership that took advantage of my work ethic and experience and I got promoted quickly. I still broke myself and got medically retired after 9 years.

Valor is a blast. I'm lucky to have him. I'll have to visit again when he's 4 so you can catch him 

Are you hanging out with the VLK West guys? That would truly be 6 degrees of separation.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Just by the thumbnail, that setup looks eerily familiar. Almost like I've seen it here before.


That's Mike Suttle's (LHK) set-up. I use it but make no claim to it's inception. He's a fantastic detection trainer.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

come to think of it, maybe it wasn't scent training? I think maybe they were clicker training pups just to stick their heads in the pipe? They were little. Pre 49 day/ 7wk

Anybody?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

kinda like this, but head in the pipe w/ food slot bottom rear

and no whining...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> I know a bunch of vets from Korea and VN. My grandfather was a WWII vet. They had it tougher than I'll ever understand and I listen closely to those guys because they have real world experience and a deep sense of duty and respect.
> 
> Joining at 35 had advantages and disadvantages. I came from a supervisor position where I had 100 employees, to being a private. That was a swift kick for sure, but I understood the game. I enjoyed some great leadership that took advantage of my work ethic and experience and I got promoted quickly. I still broke myself and got medically retired after 9 years.
> 
> Valor is a blast. I'm lucky to have him. I'll have to visit again when he's 4 so you can catch him
> 
> Are you hanging out with the VLK West guys? That would truly be 6 degrees of separation.


Didn't realize you were such a puppy!

My dad was WWII vet and POW, husband is a Vietnam vet.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> come to think of it, maybe it wasn't scent training? I think maybe they were clicker training pups just to stick their heads in the pipe? They were little. Pre 49 day/ 7wk
> 
> Anybody?


That's it. Open plumbing detection. It's the next big thing. Don't tell anyone.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

may have been a live find sar thing? I don't remember?

pups looked good. can't find it now. should have bookmarked...


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I know a bunch of vets from Korea and VN. My grandfather was a WWII vet. They had it tougher than I'll ever understand and I listen closely to those guys because they have real world experience and a deep sense of duty and respect.
> 
> Joining at 35 had advantages and disadvantages. I came from a supervisor position where I had 100 employees, to being a private. That was a swift kick for sure, but I understood the game. I enjoyed some great leadership that took advantage of my work ethic and experience and I got promoted quickly. I still broke myself and got medically retired after 9 years.
> 
> Valor is a blast. I'm lucky to have him. I'll have to visit again when he's 4 so you can catch him
> 
> Are you hanging out with the VLK West guys? That would truly be 6 degrees of separation.


Gotta know who you can complain to. I would never complain to you about the toilet paper shortages we had on the ship. When I came to shore duty I got that kick. Went from being in charge of a 30 man(and woman)division to just another guy again. The difference between a great leader makes is amazing. Even when I had them, I never realized how much they did or how important they were till I moved up and was able to see more of the goings on. Luckily I given great insights on the game and the nuke community before I joined. I think if more of the young guys understood some of that stuff, they'd be a lot more successful. I didn't know they had a west. Let me know where it is and I'll go check it out. Get to see some different types of dogs. One of the people who has helped me out a lot is Kris Taylor. I thought you might know him.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Didn't realize you were such a puppy!
> 
> My dad was WWII vet and POW, husband is a Vietnam vet.


I feel like I have such a better understanding of you now.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I feel like I have such a better understanding of you now.


I hope for the better! Lol


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I've never clicker trained anything. Gonna dip my toes a little.


----------



## Bearshandler

I think this is what your looking for Berno. You can tell Valor is a different type of dog than the ones in the first video you posted.


David Winners said:


> Here's Valor's first imprinting session. He's 13 weeks. Birch, clove and anise oil cocktail. It's the first time for the handler as well
> 
> They are both learning this together.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I hope for the better! Lol


Well its not like I didn't like you before.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Feeling is mutual!


----------



## berno von der seeweise

the vid I saw was a litter and they were little. 2 people, one w/ clicker and stopwatch, the other with treats. I think maybe they did it on a table top. Pups were tiny.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've never clicker trained anything. Gonna dip my toes a little.


Clickers are one of those things I wrote off as part of the positive only crap. Boy was I wrong. It's highly effective. It also opened me up to self discovery training. I could use voice markers, but they are less precise(for me.)


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Didn't realize you were such a puppy!
> 
> My dad was WWII vet and POW, husband is a Vietnam vet.


Than him for his service for me please. I'm 48 tomorrow.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Than him for his service for me please. I'm 48 tomorrow.


Well Happy Birthday! You are a young one! 

Dad has been gone for a long time now but I should be stopping up on the hill to see him and mom for the holidays and I will let him know.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Clickers are one of those things I wrote off as part of the positive only crap. Boy was I wrong. It's highly effective. It also opened me up to self discovery training. I could use voice markers, but they are less precise(for me.)


I use clickers for shaping and for things where I want a really precise mark. When a dog sits, a half second doesn't matter (to me), but capturing a crazy behavior or the moment a dog hits odor is easier, for me, with a clicker. They are also very handy when dealing with reactivity. Again, not my idea. I got it from Larry Krohn.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well Happy Birthday! You are a young one!
> 
> Dad has been gone for a long time now but I should be stopping up on the hill to see him and mom for the holidays and I will let him know.


I was referring to your husband. I caught the "was" in your post.

Thank you


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> I was referring to your husband. I caught the "was" in your post.
> 
> Thank you


No problem! Do that too!


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I use clickers for shaping and for things where I want a really precise mark. When a dog sits, a half second doesn't matter (to me), but capturing a crazy behavior or the moment a dog hits odor is easier, for me, with a clicker. They are also very handy when dealing with reactivity. Again, not my idea. I got it from Larry Krohn.


I didn't get a chance to watch it, but I remember him posting a video about fixing a reactivity issue without using any type of force like e collar, prong, choker, or anything like that at all. Its a pretty impressive feat to me. I have to see if i can post it.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I didn't get a chance to watch it, but I remember him posting a video about fixing a reactivity issue without using any type of force like e collar, prong, choker, or anything like that at all. Its a pretty impressive feat to me. I have to see if i can post it.


Yes. It's about conflicting motivators. A dog can't be angry and looking for a reward simultaneously. It's like LAT on steroids.

He's such an intuitive trainer and has experience with Bart Bellon, Lou Castle, Ivan Balabanov. 

If you need a link, let me know. I'll find it.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Yes. It's about conflicting motivators. A dog can't be angry and looking for a reward simultaneously. It's like LAT on steroids.
> 
> He's such an intuitive trainer and has experience with Bart Bellon, Lou Castle, Ivan Balabanov.
> 
> If you need a link, let me know. I'll find it.


I think it would make a good sticky if you find it.


----------



## David Winners

This is the one where he explains the theory


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> This is the one where he explains the theory


That's a good video. There was one where he showed this in action with a client dog. I don't think its on youtube. If I find it, I'll ask him to put it there so I can post it.


----------



## coolgsd

David Winners said:


> The question referred to potential protection candidates. I think you can find puppies that are potential candidates. What that dog will be in 2 years is a crap shoot. You just stack the odds in your favor.


Agreed. Toughest pup in the lot and grows to be aggresive sounding and scares everyone that dares come come close. Then one person does come close and challenges the noisy dog - calls the bluff. Then the dog is uncertain and is looking for dad or mom for backup. I had two females that were outgoing - not afraid of anything but when they were 2 years old they were both the kindest most gentile dogs you could ever encounter and not a sign of what you would want for a Schutzhund candidate.


----------



## LuvShepherds

David Winners said:


> Did you skip the luring part of the video or what?


I’m having so many good laughs over this thread. Thank you all. We need humor,


----------



## berno von der seeweise




----------



## David Winners

There are far better imprinting videos imo. How about some video of you and Igor?









Alexis Roy







www.youtube.com












Stonnie Dennis


This channel is devoted to providing a window into the life of professional dog trainer, Stonnie Dennis. I talk about dog training, boarding, health, equipme...




www.youtube.com












loganhauskennels







www.youtube.com


----------



## berno von der seeweise

lookin' for _LITTLE PUPPY_ vids. Pre day 49, if possible. Noteworthy all the little puppy vids are dsd? Maybe them folks are more into early imprinting than gsd folk? curious? anyway, this here's pete and re-pete. I'm not sure which one's which? I keep getting them mixed up?


















DOB november 16 (10 days old)

they seem to have _very dark_ undercoats? I'll need an extra pair of hands to get a foto


----------



## David Winners

What are you trying to imprint that isn't on those channels? One is GSDs, one is everything, one is mals, dutchies and GSDs.


----------



## Damicodric

IllinoisNative said:


> This thread is a train wreck. And, like a train wreck, I can’t look away.


Ahhhh. But train wrecks are somewhat interesting.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> What are you trying to imprint that isn't on those channels? One is GSDs, one is everything, one is mals, dutchies and GSDs.


 I know you know all this, Winners, but a lot of people reading won't.

@ 10 days old you can't really do anything other than handle them a little and maybe pop a few rounds off when the dam finishes eating/goes back in to nurse. But right around 28 days or so, when pups emerge from the whelping box on their own, it's on! and you've only got appx 20 days until vpat from there. So brief period, from wean (day 28) until vpat (day 49) is all you got. 

Not long, and they're little, so it's all very gentle, and they tire out pretty quick. So it's not like "hard work" for a breeder to put the extra effort in, if only for the sake of the pups themselves. Setting them up for success now gives them an advantage as far as what kind of treatment they'll ultimately receive throughout the rest of their lives. 

so, with all that said, and bearing in mind we have_ appx 2 weeks to think it all over _before they emerge and we begin, for the time being I'll defer to all the resident experts (this means you). You tell me, what should we be imprinting? 

I'll share all my old time hillbilly byb tricks as we go, but I was kinda hoping to take it "next level." I mean they're just mutts. It's not like I'm trying to sell them. It's perfectly understandable why other breeders don't host a "virtual open house," but me and these mutts got no reputation to protect. So lets have at it and see what we get?


----------



## Sabis mom

Now this is an awesome video!


----------



## Sabis mom

Here is another


----------



## David Winners

If your goal is to pass a test, than the criteria of the test is what you should use for imprinting.

If that test is real life, use that. If it's a scorecard, use that.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

We're not trying to imprint for vpat. We want to expose/condition/imprint as best we can for everything that comes _AFTER_ vpat. I tried it both ways years ago, repeat breeding, and the difference was night and day.

I realize all you top tier expert trainers at least _think_ you want a totally green pup and that's fine with me. I think top tier breeder's should by all means supply that demand. But I mean, c'mon now. Let's don't forget this is *berno* we're talkin' to over here. Remember me? Hello?!?


----------



## Bearshandler

Here is the video I was looking for.


----------



## Tikkie

Here is my question:

If you have to ask what to select for, are you proficient enough to handle a true personal protection dog?


----------



## David Winners

Tikkie said:


> Here is my question:
> 
> If you have to ask what to select for, are you proficient enough to handle a true personal protection dog?


Um, no. Nor are you qualified to attempt to breed them imo.


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> Stalk me all he wants. There’s only one way to find out if Bear will actually bite for real. I’m stationed in sunny San Diego. Feel free to hit me up if you’re in this area. That’s a pretty bug change up. You weren’t wrong. Subs suck. I was on a carrier. Much better quality of life.


I really liked San Diego. Maybe me and the Punk will sneak across the border. I keep saying I want to be somewhere warm and beachy. Maybe I'll stalk you. lol. Bear will just give me kisses.


----------



## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I really liked San Diego. Maybe me and the Punk will sneak across the border. I keep saying I want to be somewhere warm and beachy. Maybe I'll stalk you. lol. Bear will just give me kisses.


For a pretty aloof dog, he seems to fall for women. I think he's one of those dogs that would be probably work better with one.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

None of this is like a medical test such as an EKG that shows A fib or a biopsy that shows cancer. Any tests are simply snapshots and indications of potential strengths and weaknesses. Some can be very obvious, but berno, you are still leaving out the training effect. Tests can give you an idea of aptitude but they are not definitive in terms of actual ability. You are still looking for a shortcut instead of hands on experience and observation. Until you get past that mindset you are just spinning your wheels.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Um, no. Nor are you qualified to attempt to breed them imo.


just wait 'till Chip shows up. I only hope he doesn't have an aneurysm this time.

just breathe, Chip. And Please don't get yourself banned. It's not worth it.

edit: oh! he beat me here b_y just a fraction _of a second...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I realize vpat is not a title unto itself  but @ 49 days, it's all the breeder has

you can't grow them all out yourself, so you just try to put the right ones in the right homes


----------



## tim_s_adams

Berno, darn it, you select a bold, forward, confident puppy, then you imprint, shape, and create the dog you're after.

Of course you knew this coming in, and it never ceases to amaze me how a thread like this can generate so many posts!

Your mixed breed mongrel puppies are very cute! Watch them, you'll know the best protection prospects...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Thank you, Mister Sir! mutts are always cute @ 10 days old....

if anyone cares or dares to hazard even the foggiest guess at what those coats/colors might do, I'd love to know? totally unfamiliar type to me? quite unlike anything I've seen here before? the rusty metal background is a little misleading. That one seems awfully red to me?

Mods if it's possible to edit the title to this thread and rename it "trainwreck" I'd appreciate it. Holey cats! that's it!! Von Zugwrack!!!


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Thank you, Mister Sir! mutts are always cute @ 10 days old....
> 
> if anyone cares or dares to hazard even the foggiest guess at what those coats/colors might do, I'd love to know? totally unfamiliar type to me? quite unlike anything I've seen here before? the rusty metal background is a little misleading. That one seems awfully red to me?


How would we know what colors/coats when we don't even know what they are. 

Yes all puppies are cute, all baby animals are cute. Baby gators are adorable, doesn't mean I think people should be breeding gators. On the other hand, you were looking for a protection candidate right? Something about prey drive and full bites?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Berno,
Can you be honest about your reticence to learn about training and reading dogs as they develop in response to training? I can appreciate a lack of resources but you are entertaining fantasy not reality. I have seen some pretty mediocre dogs progress very nicely with good training. Granted, everyone wants the dog with the ultimate genetics for your goals, but that is not how the world works except for a few rare exceptions. You have to put in the work and have access to good training.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> How would we know what colors/coats when we don't even know what they are.


 well I was really kinda hoping that would be the fun part. Guessing, I mean.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Your silence is deafening.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> not how the world works except for a few rare exceptions. You have to put in the work and have access to good training.


 agreed, Chip. I don't expect we're dealing with "rare exceptions" by any stretch of the imagination. Just typical mutts. "Half german shepherd." No more, no less. But I hope we'll both be surprised by what they accomplish between now and day 49. I amaze myself all the time, so that half of the equation is pretty well in the bag. Not near as confident about your end of it, but I'll do my best.


----------



## tim_s_adams

This is a mix between your DDR boy and that Italian terrier dog you pictured earlier?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

You are deluding yourself that some type of early special imprinting and some type of outcrossing breeding will result in an advanced mutant. Genetics and early imprinting are important but sustained, good training is what yields the best results. You clearly are not willing to put in the work. I don’t even think your intention is to have a well trained dog.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t even think your intention is to have a well trained dog.


I'm definitely on the lookout for genetic obedience here



tim_s_adams said:


> This is a mix between your DDR boy and that Italian terrier dog you pictured earlier?











this is the dam. Rather than insisting what_ I think I know _she is, if I keep back a pup, I'll double dna (mars and embark) and insist on whichever result I like best.


----------



## tim_s_adams

Chip Blasiole said:


> You are deluding yourself that some type of early special imprinting and some type of outcrossing breeding will result in an advanced mutant. Genetics and early imprinting are important but sustained, good training is what yields the best results. You clearly are not willing to put in the work. I don’t even think your intention is to have a well trained dog.


I don't know Chip, seems like you're projecting a lot that Berno, the ever elusive Berno, has not yet disclosed. Maybe he does a lot. Maybe he does a little. You sure can't tell from anything he's said here...cause he ain't said shot!


----------



## berno von der seeweise

pups will grip jute when the time comes, but that alone does not a good dog make

I'm just a guy with a yard. This is just an experiment in utility. Not a big deal.


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## tim_s_adams

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't know Chip, seems like you're projecting a lot that Berno, the ever elusive Berno, has not yet disclosed. Maybe he does a lot. Maybe he does a little. You sure can't tell from anything he's said here...cause he ain't said shot!


And just to be clear, I didn't say shot...that was a PC edit...


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## Chip Blasiole

He says but doesn’t do. Show some vids and ask questions and for advice. Learning how to train dogs is very challenging and a never ending endeavor due to dogs being individuals and new techniques always coming out.


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## berno von der seeweise

ok so we're trying to select a 49 day old pup to attempt to train

until then it's about exposing/conditioning/imprinting the puppy in front of you


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## Chip Blasiole

I don’t know what that video was. I thought I saw a British flag on a tank. The wall dogs were not good dogs. You could see that from the dog’s conformation and body language. They were just a deterrent. Another example of the hype of the early DDR dogs. They were from a communist regime. Do you trust them? They faked hip ratings and other things. That dog did not look confident at all. There probably were some very strong DDR dogs, but not the majority and some of their attraction was likely for to bone, pigment and sharpness.


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## Chip Blasiole

You are about pickin’ a pig in a poke.


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## berno von der seeweise

I haven't gone to all the trouble for that. Dam brings the prey, agility, genetic obedience, etc. I firmly believe gsd is the most advanced, refined, accomplished breed ever created by man. However little igor leaves a lot to be desired. The sum of the genetics are greater than that expressed in a parent. So we'll see if I get here?

DOB november 16, vpat january 4. Let's just see how they score? and what they can do in the meantime?


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## Chip Blasiole

You just contradicted yourself and are all in your head instead of hands on.


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## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> I haven't gone to all the trouble for that. Dam brings the prey, agility, genetic obedience, etc. I firmly believe gsd is the most advanced, refined, accomplished breed ever created by man. However little igor leaves a lot to be desired. The sum of the genetics are greater than that expressed in a parent. So we'll see if I get here?
> 
> DOB november 16, vpat january 4. Let's just see how they score? and what they can do in the meantime?


You have an 8 month old dog, from lines that are notorious for being slow to mature, that you haven’t worked in the drives that are known for, and you call him lacking? I’m not even sure I would say you’ve worked him at all. While most of the East German lines today aren’t really my taste in temperament and drive, I’d say your assessment is naive at best. You’re never going to truly understand going about it the way you are.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm sure those lines are just what the doctor ordered for a whole lot of people, BH. I'm not attempting to impugn the ddr tradition, or any other, for that matter. You might say I'm deliberately watering those genes down. Attempting to compromise some of that _real ddr seriousness_ for the sake of utility/versatility here on my site. Gimme some prey. A quick learner that likes to chase and bite after the toys. Like the gsd I used to know, once upon a time.


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## Chip Blasiole

I don’t buy much into the belief that the DDR lines/pseudo DDR lines are late to mature. I believe it is more accurate to say they are more defensive and often lacking prey need to be more mature to be worked in defense and then there is the issue of finding someone who knows how to do it correctly.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t buy much into the belief that the DDR lines/pseudo DDR lines are late to mature. I believe it is more accurate to say they are more defensive and often lacking prey need to be more mature to be worked in defense and then there is the issue of finding someone who knows how to do it correctly.


The ones I have seen with high prey drive weren't displaying it when they were younger. I do agree with most of what you said.


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## David Winners

Lack of prey drive can mean several things. I often see dogs that don't or won't play with their owners that can be encouraged to play. Drive building is sometimes just an exercise in showing the dog how to play and making it rewarding. Sometimes it's a relationship thing where the dog is worried about making mistakes or becoming excited.

Got some video of little Igor failing at tug or flirt pole?


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## Axel1

berno von der seeweise said:


> when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.
> 
> but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?


European bloodlines, certified hips, look for an x ray. Large GSDS in America can be prone to hip problems.


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## Axel1

Bearshandler said:


> The ones I have seen with high prey drive weren't displaying it when they were younger. I do agree with most of what you said.


If you want a hunting dog, this one is not for you . They are working to protect you and love to stay near you the Master. However they have a good prey drive,but not like a hound.


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## LuvShepherds

@David Winners I missed a whole lot of posts Pre Thanksgiving. Happy Birthday! My dad was also a vet. Did some important things in a big war and came home again, but rarely talked about it.


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## dogfaeries

LuvShepherds said:


> My dad was also a vet. Did some important things in a big war and came home again, but rarely talked about it.


Mine was too. One tour in Korea, and 2 in Viet Nam. He would always tell me the funny things that happened. I loved to listen to his stories. He was an aviator, and retired as an LTC. Several years back, he started writing down some of those war stories, along with a pretty detailed account of his military career.. We called it his book. My nephew has the original, but I have a pdf of it. I’m so very glad he did that. I was actually looking through it earlier this morning. When I read it, I can hear him telling the stories. I miss him.


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## dogma13

My dad was a lieutenant in Korea and involved in the Pork Chop Hill situation. He never spoke of it until around a year before he passed when we were going through some old photos. Funny stories and tragic ones. I have his discharge papers and photos.


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## David Winners

There are reasons we don't tell anything but the funny and boring stuff. It's hard to talk about, and it's even harder to see judgement in the eyes of someone you care about. I don't care what anyone says, until you are faced with the reality of killing others day after day, you can't understand the mental ramifications, and part of you will be horrified at the things that happen in war.

My official excuse for not finishing the book is the DoD. And that is partly true. A larger aspect to me finishing that book is rehashing that year in detail. That's something I'm not sure I want to do.


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## Sabis mom

I wish I could hear stories. Good or bad. 
I have a grandfather who was killed in WWII. I never met him, heck my father never met him. He was 28 when he was killed. No one talked about him, I did not have his real name until I was in my 30's. I was in my 40's when I found out where he was buried. I spent years fighting for his service records, finally got them. I don't even have a picture of him. 
A man who is part of my family died and everyone just forgot he existed.
@David Winners I am just gonna send you a hug. Because everyone needs hugs.


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## LuvShepherds

David Winners said:


> There are reasons we don't tell anything but the funny and boring stuff. It's hard to talk about, and it's even harder to see judgement in the eyes of someone you care about. I don't care what anyone says, until you are faced with the reality of killing others day after day, you can't understand the mental ramifications, and part of you will be horrified at the things that happen in war.
> 
> My official excuse for not finishing the book is the DoD. And that is partly true. A larger aspect to me finishing that book is rehashing that year in detail. That's something I'm not sure I want to do.


I found a long and beautiful story about Fama online. That is your book. Everyone should read it.


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## David Winners

LuvShepherds said:


> I found a long and beautiful story about Fama online. That is your book. Everyone should read it.


Thank you. There is the rest of the story that I would like to put together someday when the time is right.


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## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I wish I could hear stories. Good or bad.
> I have a grandfather who was killed in WWII. I never met him, heck my father never met him. He was 28 when he was killed. No one talked about him, I did not have his real name until I was in my 30's. I was in my 40's when I found out where he was buried. I spent years fighting for his service records, finally got them. I don't even have a picture of him.
> A man who is part of my family died and everyone just forgot he existed.
> @David Winners I am just gonna send you a hug. Because everyone needs hugs.


Thanks


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Got some video of little Igor failing at tug or flirt pole?


I really didn’t want to talk about little igor von zugwrack. I’ve done everything I could to avoid it. Last thing I wanna do is brag on my gsd because in my mind he was supposed to be just a “core sample” of the breed at large. No better or worse than anyone else’ gsd. You know he must have AMAZING genetic obedience because I’m still feeding him. You know he must have never even thought about hurtin’ my barn cat, let alone any other animal on property, either. I’m pretty sure as far as “real ddr” goes, I got a “good one.”









96 days old









97 days old








98 days old








99 days old








112 days old









Little igor never even knew the meaning of the word fail. That’s not the problem. The problem is, he don’t know the meaning of the word game, either. It’s not a game to him. I’m no expert about what correct gsd temperament is supposed to be, but I am the world’s foremost leading expert about what berno’s dog is supposed to be. In the mind of the great berno’s dog “it’s just business, not personal.” It’s a game, and the more you agitate and the harder you pressure, the harder they play. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY of all, it don’t make ‘em truly aggressive. I got no use for that here. The berno dog readily trains to _behave aggressively_, and LOVES to play the game, but isn’t truly aggressive at all. At least, not in comparison to little igor von zugwrack. There’s no “fixing” little igor’s temperament with training. The more we train, the more aggressive he’ll get. That’s how he was born, and that’s what some people need. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.










I’m not a cop, not a soldier, not a sport. I’m strictly private sector, just like my friend here. This to me illustrates the best possible real world protection outcome. Three against one, dog wins, nobody got shot, nobody got bit, hecktor had great time at that party, and they all lived happily ever after.

I’ve had both kinds of dogs over the years, and that’s the kind I like. “Just business, not personal.” Obviously that temperament occurs within the breed, and that’s what I’m after from little igor’s genetics. Good grips are not elusive at all if you start @ 28 days old and bring it right on up. My muttpups will grip, but again, that alone does not a great berno’s dog make.

I guess I kinda hope to like “open source” the rearing of these pups because I think by putting it all out here, eventually people who know a thing or two about it are going to speak up. I’m hoping to smoke a few real old time breeder’s out of the woodwork, maybe hand a precious nugget or two of knowledge down to the rest of us. I don’t know everything. I do know that when you get to where you think you know everything, it’s prolly time to quit.

I wanna hear from old show breeders and pet breeders too. Anybody raised a bunch of litters over the years. You’re the ones who know what kind of pups turned into what kind of adults. How do you spot a good tooth clicker early on? Don’t be shy. Tell me what you know. We got a couple weeks to kill until wean here. Hey, Khawk! You lurkin’? Tell us some old “dead dog chronicle” stories!! Pleeeeease?!?!


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## MyWifeIsBoss

.


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## berno von der seeweise

wolf skull









gsd skull

wolf and gsd skulls are very similar. Unfortunately my muttpup skulls aren't. 
They took after somebody on the dam's side of the ped in the skull dept.


















24 days old and they're already off and running after their noses here. They seem to be about a week ahead of the genetics I'm used to. I'm concerned about the tail carriage as well. Bein' only half gsd I'd planned to dock those little tails @ 3 days old, which is no big deal at all. Dock early day 3 and they're furred over long before they emerge from the whelping box. But MAWL threatened to put a contract out on me if I docked 'em, so if those turn into sickle tails, or worse, that's my alibi..,.

But the real reason for this post is hillbilly byb trick #1.) build up a mound of earth, like a berm, couple 3 feet high and fairly steep, then situate your whelping box directly on top of it. Doing so requires pups to constantly traverse steep inclines and really builds the muscles as they first begin to learn to move about.


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## MyWifeIsBoss

I get banned for pseudo swearing and you're trolling flagrantly 😂


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## berno von der seeweise

I believe sound sensitivity was @ issue a few pages back. Flippin' through this 1997 manual here just now I stumbled upon detailed "gunfire training" instructions on page 8-10



https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a332189.pdf


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## David Winners

Detailed gunfire training


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## berno von der seeweise

the brumby are 29 days old today. They're into the dams kibble now and stomp around all stiff legged.
I'm just letting them free range.


















this male is going to be interesting. Very funky head. I did not expect any of that type to express
tentatively named ahmad (responds if you pronounce it right)









I expect this female's head will be more typical. Tentatively named vlčice (responding)









this thing is a real meatbrick. Already stomps around like he owns the place. 









anyway, they've survived single digit lows and have already "house trained" themselves (whelping box)


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## Damicodric

“Survived single digit lows” ..... was that an intentional test or just a complete .... up???

Gotta ask.


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## berno von der seeweise

that's just how cold it's been? 9 degrees Fahrenheit so far... they _are_ still with their their dam...

fairly wooly undercoats and no signs of cold stress yet


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## berno von der seeweise

A few words about setting them up for success. At 30 days old keep them well within familiar territory. That way any pup doesn't feel like playing can just retire back to the whelping box on it's own free will. We're looking for the ones that want to at this stage. 









don't just throw them on the woodpile and walk away. Set them down low and act like a real handler. Talk them through it. Encourage them. The idea here is to convince the individual that it can trust you, and as long as it follows your lead, it'll win every single time.









good boy!









tail up! good boy,_ aggghck met!








_
My kid is throwing an absolute fit about his name, so I've agreed to try pilot (pee-lote, rhymes w/ we vote) and if he doesn't respond to that, klodo. So we'll see? I kinda like the name mookie but she vetoed that as well. 










so like I said above I'm just free ranging these things because they're only for my own personal use. @ 30 days old it's time for me to start bonding them to my livestock. However, coincidentally, I was just discussing proper weaning of "top tier" litters, so I may as well share what I know about that here, with the afore mentioned "do as I say, not as I do" caveat.

_Pups need to be separated from dam as soon as they're able to crunch kibble, and separated from each other @ day 49. Doing so effectively "imprints" them on humans, so much so that they don't even completely self identify as dogs anymore. Failure to do so only imprints a "wolfpack" mentality which inhibits proper bonding with human handler/s for life. That's all been standard operating procedure since the czechs did their wolf crosses. It was the primary difference between ddr and z-ps. Same genes, totally different rearing protocols. Science._


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## David Winners

That statement is comical.


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## berno von der seeweise

you aren't arguing against me. You're arguing against the pohranicni straze.


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## berno von der seeweise

it's common knowledge. The czechs learned if from the wolf crosses and applied it to rearing gsd. Here again, I've done it myself both ways and the difference is night and day. I guess I can look around for a citation? I'll get back to you on that


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## berno von der seeweise

page won't allow me to copy/paste so you'll just have to read it for yourselves: ..::Czechoslovakian wolfdog::..

and this marks* the end *of berno doing all y'alls homework for ya

5 police breeds were developed in germany. Boxer, dobe, gsd, schnauzer, and rottweiler. EVERYTHING I know about breeding was handed down to me by people who used to breed working gsd, but transitioned to one of those other breeds. I don't make stuff up. From here on out, please feel free to believe _whatever_ you want.


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## berno von der seeweise

in terms of Scientific discourse/debate, that's known as "moving the goal posts." I really don't care to get into the reasons a seasoned working breeder may have chosen to transition away from gsd here. Frankly I think the pohranicni straze story speaks for itself in that regard. Again, you aren't arguing "vs berno" with this. You're arguing against Science and the pohranicni straze.


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> in terms of Scientific discourse/debate, that's known as "moving the goal posts"
> 
> I really don't care to get into the reasons a seasoned working breeder may have chosen to transition away from gsd here
> 
> frankly I think the pohranicni straze story speaks for itself in that regard


I can't let you off the hook that easy Berno. You've piqued my curiosity. I'm very interested in the when and why a working dog breeder moved from shepherds to those breeds you named.


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## berno von der seeweise

no further pubic comment, BH (pm sent)

but since we're on the subject of other breeds, what do you think about this dog?






I kinda like him?


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## berno von der seeweise

fair enough. I'm happy to "self censor" as per your request, Countess. I'll just stick to the muttpups forthwith/henceforth. They seem to be coming along and this is bound to get good.


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Pups need to be separated from dam as soon as they're able to crunch kibble, and separated from each other @ day 49. Doing so effectively "imprints" them on humans, so much so that they don't even completely self identify as dogs anymore. Failure to do so only imprints a "wolfpack" mentality which inhibits proper bonding with human handler/s for life. That's all been standard operating procedure since the czechs did their wolf crosses. It was the primary difference between ddr and z-ps. Same genes, totally different rearing protocols. Science.


Pups need to be bred from the right genetics and then humans need to let momma dog do what momma dogs do until she's done doing it then we step in. Add rules, consistency and love and you get a good dog every time.

Dogs learn what they live.


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## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> Pups need to be bred from the right genetics and then humans need to let momma dog do what momma dogs do until she's done doing it then we step in. Add rules, consistency and love and you get a good dog every time.
> 
> Dogs learn what they live.


Yes indeed!

I’ve seen the opposite of what BD has stated. Take pups away from Dam and litter mates to early does create issues.


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## berno von der seeweise

nobody said anything about "too early"

wean a litter when roughly half begin crunching dam's kibble, and split the litter up ASAP @ 7 weeks

standard operating procedure


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> nobody said anything about "too early"
> 
> wean a litter when roughly half begin crunching dam's kibble, and split the litter up ASAP @ 7 weeks
> 
> standard operating procedure


Shadow came home at 18 days. She is a disaster, and has no clue she's a dog. That was with a stable nanny dog to help. The spawn pups were taken from mom at 4 weeks due to severe temperament issues with her and concern for their safety. They were unpleasant pups. And stayed until after 10 weeks with me to correct issues. 
The pups we pulled who's momma succumbed to injuries at 4 weeks were a mess and two stayed to 6 months so I could get some basics on them and find them appropriate placements.
All of the litters that had stable moms and were allowed to stay as long as she would have them were awesome. Training was easier all around and they ate better.
At a rough guess I have raised 20 some litters. Some born with me and some brought later.
Hands down the pups raised by momma's were better dogs, regardless of origins.
Momma dogs suffer less when not wrenched from babies as well.
And incidentally horses train easier when left with their dams as well.


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## berno von der seeweise

as I explained on page 16 I'm "free ranging" these pups, because my primary protection emphasis, this time, is on bonding them to livestock. However my doing so runs* entirely contrary *to well established LE/MIL/protection orthodoxy. In other words scotland yard weaned their dreamflight litter 3 weeks prior to the 7 week eval video and they don't "co-house" the get. Post eval each candidate is assigned to it's own kennel. 

So on the one hand _there is_ more than one way to raise puppies, but on the other hand proper weaning and 7 week dispersal are long established, universally accepted "top tier" orthodoxy. I tell ya, I find myself in just the most utterly bizarre positions here? Pleading the case of the very establishment I myself am defying. So ironic!  

If I backcross, next time out the litter will be reared in the whelping pen rather than "free ranged" and weaned right about now. Because I say again, I've done it both ways, and the difference is night and day. If you leave a litter with the dam beyond appx 30 days, and/or if you leave a pup with it's littermates beyond 7 weeks, they start to "imprint" the idea they're "just dogs."


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## dogma13

An excerpt from an interesting (long!) article that I'll leave a link to below.

One down side is the rapid increase in fear responses, things like avoidance of strangers and fearfulness of new or strange situations. Barely noticeable at five weeks, fear escalates most in the seventh week. Abrupt separation from mom and littermates, the only rock solid security the pup knows, is the most traumatic experience of its life so far. Transplanting at seven weeks to a totally new environment is magnified because the developing fear is rapidly escalating. Keeping the pup in the same situation it has previously associated with low fear during the three to six week old period — same location, same mom, same litter mates and same breeder with same enriched environment routine will smooth out the rough road that begins with the rapid development of the fear reflex late in week six and through week seven before it levels of in the tenth week


Another down side that is related, temporally at least, to the rapid increase in fear is weaning. Among the time marker events included in the Scott and Fuller study is the normal beginning of weaning at seven weeks. Weaning is right up there with total separation from everything familiar for being super traumatic to a pup.








Why Not Seven Weeks — -The Forty-Ninth Day Revisited - Gun Dog


By Ed Bailey Why reprint the article that appeared in Gun Dog 13:5. Apr/May 1994?




www.gundogmag.com


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## Sabis mom

_Older is better. The optimum time to leave the litter would be ten weeks when the pup is most adaptable. Picking a pup is a crap shoot at best, but you can get a better glimpse of your pup-in-a-poke at ten weeks because that is when what you see is what you get in both the physical and psychological attributes._ 

Another excerpt from the above article. 

Berno you are simply proving that a little knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands. The other point the article makes is that after 7 weeks profitability dwindles rapidly for breeders, and lord knows there is little enough profit when you do it right. It also states that this is assuming a breeder who actually gives a crap and properly rears the pups in a stimulating and normal environment.
So again, let momma dogs do what they do. They are far more adept at raising puppies then us mere humans.


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## David Winners

Growing up, mom let pups go between 10-12 weeks depending on the experience level of the buyer. She was always huge on environmental socialization and bite inhibition.


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## berno von der seeweise

does 21st century Ethology trump z ps? When it comes to the bitearm, in my experience, no. And seein' as how I plan to rear a backcross the "old fashioned" way, von zugwrack will make for an interesting study


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## dogma13

The article is for anyone that stumbles across this thread that would like to learn more about puppy development. What you are doing berno has already been done with hundreds of puppies under controlled conditions. The results are in the article and the actual studies are easily accessed online.I never expected any curiosity on your part.


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## berno von der seeweise

your article_ made_ me curious and suddenly I realized, I'm _inadvertently_ doing a case study here. By accident, really. The dam isn't exactly the world's best lactater. Vet brought a lactating dam out but my dam wasn't having any of it, so I sent the longcoats off with her and held onto the smoothies with the idea they're the most gsd'ish in the bunch. (?) So with just the "twins" here I decided "free range" and now _this conversation_ has evolved.

But speaking of longcoats, my kid is talking about picking one up. When I was a kid, the lore was that longcoats were once upon a time donated to the polizei because they didn't conform. I always just believed that because I never had any reason not to? However recently it occurred to me I really haven't encountered any old time longcoats among the usual suspects in the database?

Anybody got the lowdown on that? are there longcoat "foundations" or is that mostly just a hobby thing?


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## Chip Blasiole

The old style German line long coats are called Aldeutscher Shaferhunds and are not simply GSDs with long coats. They are from the early long coated German herding/livestock lines. What is your source of info on the zPS breeding programs?


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## berno von der seeweise

? 

offhand I don't remember many working longcoats in the database. 

"Wean when 1/2 the litter crunches dam's kibble and disperse ASAP after vpat" came to me by word of mouth, but czech wolfdog history appears to bear that out? I'm not into wolfdogs at all, but when I leaned z ps did wolf crosses I read up on it. I dig the "wolf lore" behind gsd, but even just a husky or malamute is more than wolfy enough IMO.

Just as like an afterthought or whatever, I can easily imagine simply taking the dam away and leaving litter to their own devices may lead to_ very serious temperament issues_? The idea is supposed to be to like "transfer" a pup's bond from the dam to a human @ wean, so you really need a lot of interaction.


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## Chip Blasiole

That looks like a long haired high line dog which probably has little relationship to the early Altdeutscher Shaferhund. My understanding is the zPS wolfdog experiment was a miserable failure with few to no zPS dogs having wolf in their DNA.


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## berno von der seeweise

well they did a number of crosses and the program continued for like 30 yrs, so? Nobody goes to that much trouble without good reason. The way it reads to me, no wolf nuclear dna was ever introduced into the z ps gsd program. Off the top of my head I can't remember exactly how many backcross gens they say it took, but eventually a few tiny drops of maternal wolf blood did patrol czech/slovak borders. I don't know enough about it to answer definitively in terms of what all was accomplished, but it looks like the russians are still trying to replicate whatever the czechs and slovaks did back then? Z ps had a rottweiller program, too, but I'm not allowed to talk about that here because the showfolk didn't class rott as a herding breed 










just to be clear I don't like have any "inside info" on this, I only researched the history of czech wolfdog. The way it reads, to me, just as scotland yard places culls in pet homes, z ps did as well, and that's where the "czech wolfdog" breed come from. I think maybe civilians entered some saarloos into that studbook later on.










my point simply today's "czech wolfdog" differs radically from what z ps was up to way back when


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## LuvShepherds

David Winners said:


> Growing up, mom let pups go between 10-12 weeks depending on the experience level of the buyer. She was always huge on environmental socialization and bite inhibition.


German Shepherds? Miniature breed dogs routinely go home later.


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## David Winners

LuvShepherds said:


> German Shepherds? Miniature breed dogs routinely go home later.


GSDs and Saint Bernard Dogs


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## berno von der seeweise

I suspect the ww1 ambulance dog ability to locate a live body beneath a pile of corpses stems directly from the alpine herding dog's ability to locate living livestock/et al beneath the snow. Therefore I assert st. and gsd probably share some common ancestry, way wayyy back. Some old book I read claimed that st bernard, landseer, and great pyrenees all descent from the same parentstocks? So I'm really quite curious about all that?









Studies of modern Italian dog populations reveal multiple patterns for domestic breed evolution


Through thousands of years of breeding and strong human selection, the dog (Canis lupus familiaris) exists today within hundreds of closed populations throughout the world, each with defined phenotypes. A singular geographic region with broad diversity ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Therefore I assert st. and gsd probably share some common ancestry, way wayyy back. Some old book I read claimed that st bernard, landseer, and great pyrenees all descent from the same parentstocks? So I'm really quite curious about all that?


Saints I believe were created by crossing a variety of Molosser type breeds common in the general area of the Swiss Alps. They've been around since I think the late 1600's although we made them much bigger. Newfs-Landseers are a color of them, at least in North America- had a set type by the late 1600's and it was very similar to what we have today. There is no clear history on their origin but they are believed to be descendants of the St. Johns Water Dog, now extinct and possibly some Viking dogs. Unlike Pyrs and Saints the Newf is a waterdog, complete with webbed feet, and they were in Newfoundland before European settlers arrived.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you can observe relationships between like landseer and tornjak, badger pyr. That book I read was a really old book. I'm convinced there's something to it. These breed histories we're all so fond of don't even amount to a blink in terms of time and the relationships shared between humans and dogs. I'm the first to admit I'm at least half crazy plus a vivid imagination, but when I look at the longcoat vid above, I see terv and leonberger. Not to suggest that longcoat isn't purebred, only lots of common ancestry shared between all of the above. Leonberger and great pyrenees have webbed feet also...


----------



## Sabis mom

Landseer is a pattern, not a breed. Newfs are actual water dogs, and they evolved in Newfoundland prior to Europeans settling there.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Landseer dog - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





"t is believed these dogs are descended from water dogs and livestock guardian dogs imported by Portuguese and Basque fishing vessels with possible crosses to indigenous dogs."









Giantlands German Shepherd Dogs - Long Coat History


New page




www.giantlands.co.uk





_Wurttemberg dogs were larger, heavier boned, more diverse in coat length, had longer well carried tails that were quite bushy. They had a tendency to soft semi erect and even pendulous ears and on this latter point it is interesting to know that erect upright ears were relatively uncommon with sheepherding dogs of that time."









Leonberger - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





near Stuttgart in Baden-Württemberg, Germany, claimed to have created the Leonberger by crossing a female Landseer Newfoundland with a "barry" male from the Great St Bernard Hospice and Monastery (which would later create the Saint Bernard)."_

I'm convinced most breed histories are steeped in speculation, but it's interesting to go back and sort of "read between the lines" in search of places where they may have overlapped









Hovawart - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I won't be surprised if mookie von zugwrack grows up to have webbed toes. He seems to be expressing some of that, for lack of a better word, big "mountain" or "draught" type


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Landseer dog - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "t is believed these dogs are descended from water dogs and livestock guardian dogs imported by Portuguese and Basque fishing vessels with possible crosses to indigenous dogs."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Giantlands German Shepherd Dogs - Long Coat History
> 
> 
> New page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.giantlands.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Wurttemberg dogs were larger, heavier boned, more diverse in coat length, had longer well carried tails that were quite bushy. They had a tendency to soft semi erect and even pendulous ears and on this latter point it is interesting to know that erect upright ears were relatively uncommon with sheepherding dogs of that time."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leonberger - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> near Stuttgart in Baden-Württemberg, Germany, claimed to have created the Leonberger by crossing a female Landseer Newfoundland with a "barry" male from the Great St Bernard Hospice and Monastery (which would later create the Saint Bernard)."_
> 
> I'm convinced most breed histories are steeped in speculation, but it's interesting to go back and sort of "read between the lines" in search of places where they may have overlapped
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hovawart - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


The *Landseer* is a dog that originated in Canada,* it is a black and white variety of the **Newfoundland* that is recognised as an independent breed in continental Europe.

Read the bolded!
If we follow German standard for German Shepherd Dogs, kindly follow Canadian standard for this very old Canadian breed created long before the GSD.

The breed existed long before the Portuguese came here.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you win, Sabis Mom

I'm* definitely* not looking to create another international incident 







I want to offer a heartfelt thank you to the Mod's for not banning Chip

always good to let Chip have the last word. Gives me the feels everytime.

You, too, Chip. Good advice. Thank you.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Learn how to train a dog. That will have much more value than your esoteric search for some new, dynamic cross bred dog. Training requires time, effort and knowledge, not mental “master of the house”.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

[Removed. Feel free to take this up with Mods directly]


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I definitely want your input, Chip. I understand my muttastical byb hijinks offend you to your very core, but the principals of rational breeding/inbreeding/linebreeding apply across the board. So ultimately this thread isn't about mookie vom schneeflocke at all. In my mind it's actually about somebody else backcrossing "top tier" gsd at some point in the future. All I'm really trying to do is ((((((put it out there))))))). I'll report back with some action fotos and try to keep my theoreticals to a minimum.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## dogma13

Again? This thread is teetering on the edge of being closed kids.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Is it part of the rules for a moderator to be snarky and condescending by referring to members as “kids?”


----------



## wormy

I


----------



## dogma13

Chip Blasiole said:


> Is it part of the rules for a moderator to be snarky and condescending by referring to members as “kids?”


It's a term of endearment. A friendly reminder to take a step back and disagree _publicly_ in a civil respectful manner.Trading insults should be pursued via private messaging.


----------



## Lexie’s mom

As far as I know a Black Russian terrier is a recognized breed here. Pls. Correct me if I am wrong. It took years to develop this breed and different cross breedings, as far as I remember the breeds included are Newfs, Rotties, Airdales and Giant Schnauzers.


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## Sabis mom

Lexie’s mom said:


> As far as I know a Black Russian terrier is a recognized breed here. Pls. Correct me if I am wrong. It took years to develop this breed and different cross breedings, as far as I remember the breeds included are Newfs, Rotties, Airdales and Giant Schnauzers.


I believe Newfs were added after the fact to try and stabilize the temperament. Remember that the BRT's were created by accident more or less. They just wanted a dog that could do the job and stand the weather. The original dogs were not particularly pleasant animals and had no real consistency. It was only when they started being sold off to the general public that the breed was refined and a standard developed.


----------



## Lexie’s mom

I was an 11y.o kid and I remember in our dog club we were learning about the breed and there were several lines... at this point I don’t recall which breeds were crossed in each line. But I grew up with a lot of friends that had BRT. Nice stable dogs, protective but not crazy vicious. I had GS and Newfs, later on.


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## berno von der seeweise

34 days old, triple pallet challenge, night maneuvers



















a word of advice to breeders, if you're trying to sell pups, don't use cruddy photos with busted up pallets, chewed up houses, etc. I wouldn't buy a puppy from me 









they really move quick now. This is difficult to do one handed.









looks like we may have a tunnel dog!














































personally I find it helpful to look at all the other breeds/programs/bloodlines/peds and whatever. I feel like doing so only broadens my perspective. BUT I should also add, you'll never catch me messing with any other breed's paternal dna again. If anything, someday I'll bring in a lance of franjo, or a white, or a highline in here. It may a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it


----------



## Rionel

Maybe a white. I don't see as many of them with skull structures I really like, but I do see bone and toplines worth a second look. Nice looking pups, but I'm surprised you don't have night vision goggles on them Mr. Berno. ; )


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Thanks. They're just mutts, so I'll take whatever I can get as far as looks. I will be putting some coyote fur on the reizangel for these two. Meanwhile my strategy with this is, maybe an hr or 2 after supper, place an obstacle between the whelping box and offer some little treat. Then watch closely while they "problem solve."


----------



## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> Thanks. They're just mutts, so I'll take whatever I can get as far as looks. I will be putting some coyote fur on the reizangel for these two. Meanwhile my strategy with this is, maybe an hr or 2 after supper, place an obstacle between the whelping box and offer some little treat. Then watch closely while they "problem solve."


Gotcha, and of course I wasn't being smug. Just acknowledging your intense thinking on dog lines development. My comment on skull structures, bone and toplines was about whites, not your pups. And who knew you were a jazz fan!


----------



## berno von der seeweise

this time of day, this time of year, a pup mainly wants to curl up in the straw, so I'm using that to my advantage. I'm also on the lookout for anything suggesting nightblindness, and I want them acclimated to playing after dark. A lot of nightarkers are actually nightblind. I don't want any nightbarking here without good reason.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

very difficult to get usable fotos one handed @ this age. I figure new moon x warm temps x a little precip + today was the solstice = optimal conditions for parasite hatch, so I wormed them. Any little vax kinda knocks them back for a few hrs, and it occurred to me to do it like right on the middle of the day, so they pretty well had the day off today. Because at this age we MUST win every single time. Can't afford the risk of a setback, and knowing they won't be 100% game on for a few hrs, don't even risk it. At this age they learn real fast, so if we teach them to lose, they will learn to loose _real fast_. 

For example they need to find their way into my barn and back to their whelping box on their own, in order to "win" at expanding their home range. At 35 days old, they don't venture that distance from "home" yet. Every extra foot is like a trial by fire. They follow me, their dam, and little igor nearly half way to the barn now, so they'll make it in another day or 2. It's a long precarious journey that only leads to a very scary door, but once they find their way, my barn will be part of the home range, and we can start to boogie woogie "imprinting" the farm dog stuff.










At thirty five days old, "working litters" should be weaned and kept in a whelping pen. Every minute they spend looking for their dam is one less minute they spend looking to me for leadership. This is a fundamental rule in rearing a litter.

They've been crunching ol roy just fine for at least 4 days, plus I supplement now So they haven't needed to nurse for near a week. Furthermore, do we really want to start beefing up the jaws and polishing the fangs for the poor dam to suckle?

clinically speaking now, folks, and* LITERALLY *these next few words may be the smartest most important I'll ever say, dramatic pause  if you're looking for a pup to bitetrain, find a breeder who weans @ appx 30 days old. The ones that "want to" need to be weaned and snappin' hard @ 35 days old. Their little brains are like sponges, and it's time to start building those jaws. A real "working" breeder has been gently luring 35 day old weaned pups, in a whelping pen, for near a week now, with a little bit of leather on a very light reizangel, and bonding with the ones that want to. Imprinting "win" bites on the ones who "will work for praise."


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## MineAreWorkingline

Mike Suttle, take a seat.


----------



## Bearshandler

I don’t think Cion was weaned at 30 days. I wouldn’t say biting or looking to me for leadership are weaknesses to say the least.


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## berno von der seeweise

I promise, BH


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I promise, BH


Why try to force something when it happens anyhow in a dog with the right stuff? In fact, observing that it is naturally occurring might be an indication of whether the dog has the right stuff or not vs trained/imprinted... depending on who you are and what you are looking for.


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## berno von der seeweise

precisely


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> precisely


What?


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## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> I promise, BH


I think you’re trying to put something into these dogs that you get from genetics.


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## berno von der seeweise

nope. we're only looking for the one's that want to.

observing what it is naturally occurring 

In other words we can't make them want to bite a flying target, and we can't make them work for praise. Either they just naturally want to, or they don't.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> nope. we're only looking for the one's that want to.
> 
> observing what it is naturally occurring


Can it be that you are finally talking about exposure... albeit... premature... but still exposure?


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## berno von der seeweise

post mature. They should have been weaned at least 4 days ago and the ones that want to be snappin' like little rat traps, rather than whining after their dam. They shouldn't even remember their dam anymore.

they should be* in a pen *small enough (captive audience) to clean within 10-15 minutes, several times daily, and they shouldn't even see their dam again until *afte*r vpat.










I'M YOUR DAM NOW, LITTLE ONES!!!


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> post mature. They should have been weaned at least 4 days ago


Weaning is dictated by the bitch. Take that how you want.


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## berno von der seeweise

nope. dam should be out of the whelping pen and back in her kennel as soon as half the pups are able crunch ol' roy

but it's christmas, so I'm just not going to argue the point any further


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## MineAreWorkingline

Like I said... the bitch is the determining weaning factor.

Friend of mine just bred his top tier bitch, not her first litter. One of the deciding factors to continue using her as a brood bitch were her fantastic mothering instincts which via nature, would ensure the survival of her puppies. She was attentive and willing to nurse until he sent the puppies home at 10 weeks. I am looking forward to watching him raise this litter as the sire is a son of Pepper.


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> clinically speaking now, folks, and* LITERALLY *these next few words may be the smartest most important I'll ever say, dramatic pause  if you're looking for a pup to bitetrain, find a breeder who weans @ appx 30 days old. The ones that "want to" need to be weaned and snappin' hard @ 35 days old. Their little brains are like sponges, and it's time to start building those jaws. A real "working" breeder has been gently luring 35 day old weaned pups, in a whelping pen, for near a week now, with a little bit of leather on a very light reizangel, and bonding with the ones that want to. Imprinting "win" bites on the ones who "will work for praise."


So you believe that wean at 4 weeks is the way to go? I have hand reared pups from birth, and raised orphans from 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 weeks. All I ever accomplished was a crap ton of work that could have been easily and quickly handled by a good bitch. You do not change the genetics, you do not alter the genetics. You make nothing better and you can easily make it worse. 
The whole reason to have a dog is because it's a dog and the learn to be dogs from, dramatic pause, DOGS! I don't need my dog to learn human behavior I need it to be a dog. Loads of stock dogs learn herding and tending from their dams. LGD pups also learn from Ma. 

Good breeders don't need to separate pups to imprint humans, they do that by spending time on handling and exposure long before the pups can even see.


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## berno von der seeweise

if you want to turn tractable pups into piranha, wean when half the litter crunches dam's kibble


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## Bearshandler

There are some traits you need for a protection dog that you have no chance at training. Hardness is one.


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## berno von der seeweise

train bite now, eval hardness later


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> train bite now, eval hardness later


Grip is genetic.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> train bite now, eval hardness later


One problem you will run into is that you can train a bite all you want. If the nerves aren’t there to maintain confidence, it’s going to fall apart when you put it in action.


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## berno von der seeweise

at day 35, BH, all we have are the one's that want to

you have to start somewhere, better sooner than later

that's all there is to it



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Grip is genetic.


right again, Countess


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> post mature. They should have been weaned at least 4 days ago and the ones that want to be snappin' like little rat traps, rather than whining after their dam. They shouldn't even remember their dam anymore.
> 
> they should be* in a pen *small enough (captive audience) to clean within 10-15 minutes, several times daily, and they shouldn't even see their dam again until *afte*r vpat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'M YOUR DAM NOW, LITTLE ONES!!!


Vpat is for pets, not working dogs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

sez you


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> at day 35, BH, all we have are the one's that want to
> 
> you have to start somewhere, better sooner than later
> 
> that's all there is to it
> 
> 
> 
> right again, Countess


I don’t think you’re going to make much head with what you’re trying. It’s better to wait in a lot of cases.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Science.


----------



## Bearshandler

Unfortunately I didn’t work Cion Friday. Hopefully he’ll be moving better and I’ll be able to get some footage of him working soon. Hoped you’ll see the difference between his grip and Bear. One has a natural grip and drive that I don’t think the other will ever match.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think you’re going to make much head with what you’re trying. It’s better to wait in a lot of cases.


I'm not trying. That's the point. They aren't weaned, and they aren't in a pen.

I'll coax fabulous bite fotos out of these things  but in real life a real breeder weans them early in a little pen

in a word, @ day 35 I can already see the difference

as far as bite training, they'd be better off weaned in a corner of your basement, rather than free ranging with their dam here on my place


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm not trying. That's the point. They aren't weaned, and they aren't in a pen.
> 
> I'll coax fabulous bite fotos out of these things  but in real life a real breeder weans them early in a little pen


Define breeder.


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## berno von der seeweise

this is what a real breeder looks like


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## MineAreWorkingline

Where does that say that he removed puppies from the dam before their time or separates siblings from each other before they learn dog social skills?


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## berno von der seeweise

disperse litter ASAP @ 7 weeks

I can tell just by lookin' the breeder did that one right

nature PLUS nurture


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> disperse litter ASAP @ 7 weeks


10 weeks is preferred by many experienced breeders.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> disperse litter ASAP @ 7 weeks
> 
> I can tell just by lookin' the breeder did that one right


What does that dog look like now?


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## berno von der seeweise

no idea, but that's the kind of pup I like to train, and it' comes a whole lot more natural with the dam out of the way


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> no idea, but that's the kind of pup I like to train, and it's a whole lot more natural with the dam out of the way


That puppy was still with its dam and siblings. It was only removed for short training sessions.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

well I say get rid of the dam and train all day long

case closed


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> they'd be better off weaned in a corner of your basement, rather than free ranging with their dam here on my place


Puppies don't belong in basements, men do.


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## berno von der seeweise

meanwhile they aren't weaned or in a pen. Leave it to berno to argue against himself. 

swim test tomorrow! we're earning our frogman badges here


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> well I say get rid of the dam and train all day long
> 
> case closed


But that conflicts with what you just said about that breeder and puppy that _you _selected as exemplary.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Puppies don't belong in basements, men do.


Oh Lord... please help me keep my mouth shut.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> meanwhile they aren't weaned or in a pen. Leave it to berno to argue against himself.
> 
> swim test tomorrow! we're earning our frogman badges here


Pneumonia you say?


----------



## MyWifeIsBoss

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Oh Lord... please help me keep my mouth shut.


Back in the kitchen, you!


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> nope. dam should be out of the whelping pen and back in her kennel as soon as half the pups are able crunch ol' roy
> 
> but it's christmas, so I'm just not going to argue the point any further


It wouldn’t matter what type of dog I was looking for, I certainly wouldn’t support a breeder who does this.
To each their own.....


----------



## dogma13

Berno's "method" is very close to how captive wolf cubs are brought up by humans. If the babies are left with mom past three weeks they are too wild to be handled easily by the caretakers. Nowadays I think they are removed much earlier and bottle fed.
Research has shown this does more harm than good with domestic dogs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

hold on now, Your Honor... if I remember right, the earliest I've ever weaned a litter was 28 days, and only because that dam had enough of her own offspring. If you wean when the "top half" of the litter gets into the dam's kibble, you may want to soften kibble for the "lower half" for a few days. Or just leave them with the dam a few extra days and allow the "lower half" to catch up.



dogma13 said:


> Research has shown this does more harm than good with domestic dogs.


I think that all depends on who is researching what and that researcher's definition of "harm." All I'm saying is, if you're trying to raise "top tier" biters, wean appx 30 days. To that extent I agree with Saphire above that "to each his own." Pups learn bite inhibition from the dam and each other, so if you're trying to raise litters that don't bite, BY ALL MEANS leave them as a "pack" longer. Let the dam wean natural and disperse the litter much later.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> hold on now, your honor... if I remember right, the earliest I've ever weaned a litter was 28 days, and only because that dam had enough of her own offspring. If you wean when the "top half" of the litter gets into the dam's kibble, you may want to soften kibble for the "lower half" for a few days. Or just leave them with the dam a few extra days.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that all depends on who is researching what and that researcher's definition of "harm." All I'm saying is, if you're trying to raise "top tier" biters, wean appx 30 days. To that extent I agree with Saphire above that "to each his own." Pups learn bite inhibition from the dam and each other, so if you're trying to raise litters that don't bite, BY ALL MEANS leave them as a "pack" longer.


You misunderstand. Leaving pups with dam and siblings teaches the ability to bite appropriately, not take off children's fingers for feeding a dog a cookie.

Besides, you have never owned a top tier dog, let alone raised a top tier litter, to make that statement. You simply aren't qualified.


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> hold on now, your honor... if I remember right, the earliest I've ever weaned a litter was 28 days, and only because that dam had enough of her own offspring. If you wean when the "top half" of the litter gets into the dam's kibble, you may want to soften kibble for the "lower half" for a few days. Or just leave them with the dam a few extra daysand allow the "lower half" to catch up.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that all depends on who is researching what and that researcher's definition of "harm." All I'm saying is, if you're trying to raise "top tier" biters, wean appx 30 days. To that extent I agree with Saphire above that "to each his own." Pups learn bite inhibition from the dam and each other, so if you're trying to raise litters that don't bite, BY ALL MEANS leave them as a "pack" longer.


There are plenty of good dogs with great bites that were not taken from mom early, I own one. I’d bet you’d struggle to handle my dog.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> teaches the ability to bite appropriately


 appropriate is, you bite what I say, when I say, and that's it, or else

I'm not trying to raise cookie dogs here


----------



## Saphire

It seems you’re raising these pups in an attempt to bring out what you know they don’t genetically have. It makes more sense to start with sound genetics so these extremes aren’t needed.


----------



## dogma13

We're not posting to try and change your mind berno. It's impossible. It's to encourage others to do the research and not jump on a concept they read on the Internet.


----------



## WIBackpacker

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Like I said... the bitch is the determining weaning factor.
> 
> Friend of mine just bred his top tier bitch, not her first litter. One of the deciding factors to continue using her as a brood bitch were her fantastic mothering instincts which via nature, would ensure the survival of her puppies. She was attentive and willing to nurse until he sent the puppies home at 10 weeks. I am looking forward to watching him raise this litter as the sire is a son of Pepper.


Who’s the sire? I’m a fan of Pepper’s kids 🙂


----------



## berno von der seeweise

dogma13 said:


> encourage others to do the research and not jump on a concept they read on the Internet.


that said, I reiterate, Pups learn bite inhibition from the dam and each other, so if you're trying to raise litters that don't bite, by all means please leave them as a "pack" longer. Let the dam wean natural and disperse the litter much later.


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> that said, I reiterate, Pups learn bite inhibition from the dam and each other, so if you're trying to raise litters that don't bite, by all means please leave them as a "pack" longer. Let the dam wean natural and disperse the litter much later.


Where do you get this information from, it’s quite misleading. How do you explain all the good dogs with great bites who were raised with mom and littermates to an appropriate age?
Genetics is genetics is genetics.


----------



## dogma13

Berno let me reiterate.I only post for _other people's benefit. _You are free to do as you like.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Saphire said:


> raised with mom and littermates to an appropriate age?


 what ages do you suggest are "appropriate?"

wean age?

dispersal age?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

dogma13 said:


> Berno let me reiterate.I only post for _other people's benefit. _You are free to do as you like.


no question my "methods" were developed during the cold war era, so I am curious re; the current gsd consensus


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> what ages do you suggest are "appropriate?"
> 
> wean age?
> 
> dispersal age?


For me, mom will wean when she’s ready to wean. There is no set age, each dam is different. I want pups to stay with mom and litter to a minimum of 8 weeks, 10 weeks, even better.
My Schipperke litter was 6 pups when the norm is 2. Mom was beyond amazing, she started weaning all but one pup at 6 weeks. By 7 weeks all but the one were done feeding from her. The smallest born at 2oz was allowed to continue nursing to 9 weeks. I did not intervene.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> appropriate is, you bite what I say, when I say, and that's it, or else
> 
> I'm not trying to raise cookie dogs here


Well, most people choose to own dogs that don't / won't harm children. Guess you aren't one of them. See, a dog needs "bite inhibition" to safely take a cookie from a child. Bite inhibition is learned via dam and siblings through 10 weeks of age. How does that fit in your plan?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Saphire said:


> For me, mom will wean when she’s ready to wean. There is no set age, each dam is different.


so you leave it up to the dam? interesting... do you do any bite building before the dam decides to wean?



MineAreWorkingline said:


> a dog needs "bite inhibition" to safely take a cookie from a child


my dogs aren't allowed to take cookies from children, MAWL

cookies are strictly prohibited on the yard here


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WIBackpacker said:


> Who’s the sire? I’m a fan of Pepper’s kids 🙂


Let me check with the owner of the dam. The bitch is confirmed pregnant but I am not sure that he is announcing anything yet.


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> no question my "methods" were developed during the cold war era, so I am curious re; the current gsd consensus





berno von der seeweise said:


> so you leave it up to the dam? interesting... do you do any bite building before the dam decides to wean?
> 
> 
> 
> my dogs aren't allowed to take cookies from children, MAWL
> 
> cookies are strictly prohibited on the yard here


No, if I’m wanting good bites from a dog, I’d start with the genetics that would give me that naturally. Mom Schipperke will bite if she thinks I need protecting, that in itself is something I don’t like as her idea of needing to protect, is not mine.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> that said, I reiterate, Pups learn bite inhibition from the dam and each other, so if you're trying to raise litters that don't bite, by all means please leave them as a "pack" longer. Let the dam wean natural and disperse the litter much later.


The puppy you raise might not have bite inhibition. Bite inhibition isn't what gives dogs terrible bites in protection. Poor bites usually are related to nerves, drive, and confidence. If that dog loses confidence in the fight, the bite will fall apart.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'm glad you mention sport, BH. Wean/disperse early might be more of a sport thing nowdays? I can't imagine knpv breeders let a dam decide when to wean, and keep litters in packs until 10 weeks...


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm glad you mention sport, BH. Wean/disperse early might be more of a sport thing nowdays? I can't imagine knpv breeders let a dam decide when to wean, and keep litters in packs until 10 weeks...


I don’t think you understand genetics. The breeders do not create what the dog brings.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WIBackpacker said:


> Who’s the sire? I’m a fan of Pepper’s kids 🙂


They aren't making announcements yet but this is the sire's dam. 









Dena Mae's Haus Ukres | Hundeprofil - Informationen und Daten – working-dog


Alle relevanten Informationen sowie Bilder, Videos und einen detaillierten Stammbaum zu Dena Mae's Haus Ukres findest du bei working-dog.



www.working-dog.com


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Saphire said:


> I don’t think you understand genetics. The breeders do not create what the dog brings.


 well we'll just see what these genetics bring


----------



## WIBackpacker

Ahh, neat. Got it. CometDog hasn't posted much lately, but I've enjoyed following her boy.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WIBackpacker said:


> Ahh, neat. Got it. CometDog hasn't posted much lately, but I've enjoyed following her boy.


Not her dog, but related.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm glad you mention sport, BH. Wean/disperse early might be more of a sport thing nowdays? I can't imagine knpv breeders let a dam decide when to wean, and keep litters in packs until 10 weeks...


I'm not sure what KNPV breeders do with puppies before they are sold. I do know based on the mals I've seen from those types of lines, they are going to bite no matter when they are weaned and seperated.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

some dogs bite better than others, BH, and it's never a good idea to underestimate the nurture factor, or overestimate the nature factor... if you know what I'm sayin'...


----------



## WIBackpacker

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not her dog, but related.


That was my assumption.


----------



## Saphire

Bearshandler said:


> I'm not sure what KNPV breeders do with puppies before they are sold. I do know based on the mals I've seen from those types of lines, they are going to bite no matter when they are weaned and seperated.


I have a customer who breeds, raises and trains Mals for Police. I will ask her how she goes about it.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

well I don't have to ask anybody how they did it in the good old ddr, because I was taught by people who were actually there, doing it 

and the really FUN part is, they used to cite our very own Chip Blasiole's posts on another forum all the time


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I'm not sure what KNPV breeders do with puppies before they are sold. I do know based on the mals I've seen from those types of lines, they are going to bite no matter when they are weaned and seperated.


Interesting point. My KNPV line Mal bitch was removed from dam and siblings at 6 weeks. The brother, which became available @ 12 weeks, was raised with the dam and siblings until then. No difference in grips. They aren't even permitted to play with the other dogs, only each other, because of the unique grip that they share.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> well I don't have to ask anybody how they did it in the good old ddr, because I was taught by people who were actually there, doing it
> 
> and the really FUN part is, they used to cite our very own Chip Blasiole's posts on another forum all the time


Berno, why would a breeder who has been breeding since the 80’s at least, need to use quotes from the internet 20+ years later.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> well I don't have to ask anybody how they did it in the good old ddr, because I was taught by people who were actually there, doing it
> 
> and the really FUN part is, they used to cite our very own Chip Blasiole's posts on another forum all the time


Your purported DDR experts referenced then newby Chip as a resource? Enough said.


----------



## Saphire

Saphire said:


> I have a customer who breeds, raises and trains Mals for Police. I will ask her how she goes about it.


Here is what she said. I have her permission to post.


----------



## Bearshandler

Saphire said:


> Here is what she said. I have her permission to post.
> View attachment 567405
> View attachment 567406
> View attachment 567407
> View attachment 567408
> View attachment 567409
> View attachment 567410
> View attachment 567411


Very detailed response and informative response. I think she gives some very good insight into your experiment.


----------



## Damicodric

:


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> Berno, why would a breeder who has been breeding since the 80’s at least, need to use quotes from the internet 20+ years later.


longer than that, BH. They were oldfolks, farm raised and breeding service dogs was just part of the cold war pkg. @ the time I assumed they referenced Chip because he was more fluent in english, but I wonder if he wasn't more fluent in modern training method as well? Bear in mind I'm specifically referencing people involved in breeding. Not trainers, not handlers, just breeders.

here's another thing they taught me. Let's just call it bathtime @ berno's










now here again, we MUST win everytime, so be prepared to abort this exercise @ the slightest suggestion of stress.

VERY SLOWLY lower the cadet into the water and watch for the paddling instincts to kick in.










if/when the little paws start flipperin', let 'em go; but be ready to GENTLY fish 'em out just in case it goes wrong










you want to let them paddle around for a few seconds, but fish them out* before *they start to stress. We don't want any water up the nose. We want WINING, not whining. The pup that swims and wins today will readily swim and win for life. Imprinting. Science.










*most importantly*, remember, DO NOT release a cadet into the drink until the natural paddling instinct kicks in

if a cadet doesn't naturally begin paddling* BEFORE *release this week, abort the exercise and try again net week



















so that certainly went swimmingly  fabulous buoyancy, outstanding paddling instincts and technique










water didn't even penetrate the cashmere

tomorrow we bite!

I hope...


----------



## Chip Blasiole

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 567291
> 
> 34 days old, triple pallet challenge, night maneuvers
> 
> View attachment 567292
> 
> 
> View attachment 567293
> 
> 
> a word of advice to breeders, if you're trying to sell pups, don't use cruddy photos with busted up pallets, chewed up houses, etc. I wouldn't buy a puppy from me
> 
> View attachment 567294
> 
> they really move quick now. This is difficult to do one handed.
> 
> View attachment 567295
> 
> looks like we may have a tunnel dog!
> 
> View attachment 567296
> 
> 
> View attachment 567297
> 
> 
> View attachment 567298
> 
> 
> View attachment 567300
> 
> 
> View attachment 567301
> 
> 
> personally I find it helpful to look at all the other breeds/programs/bloodlines/peds and whatever. I feel like doing so only broadens my perspective. BUT I should also add, you'll never catch me messing with any other breed's paternal dna again. If anything, someday I'll bring in a lance of franjo, or a white, or a highline in here. It may a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> Very detailed response and informative response. I think she gives some very good insight into your experiment.


me? sounds pretty complicated? way above my paygrade, for sure. plus no terrier here, so?



Saphire said:


> To each their own.....


 I agree


----------



## Chip Blasiole

All of your experimentation is for naught. You think there is some hidden knowledge to develop a better hybrid dog but you don’t know how to train a dog. You are doing things totally backwards.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I can't _completely_ disagree, Chip. Nevertheless I have no choice but to finish what I've started. Also, as far as "hybridization" applies to linebreeding, eventually you have to pick one of the breeds involved and go with it. Outbreeding is only an origin, not a destination.


----------



## MyWifeIsBoss

You guys. 
Are all.
So.
Completely.
Cooked.

🤣


----------



## Chip Blasiole

How do you know anything about a breeding prospect unless you have trained it and figured out what is genetic and what is training? Training doesn’t have to be sport but it has to have a level of expectation and exposure to stress. Then you have to evaluate hips and elbows even though the SV say only 25% of HD is genetic. Getting accurate information on anything these days is almost futile.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

well the dam has proven herself to be outstanding time and time again over the years here in my "venue" and for now I'm content to introduce gsd genetics on "good faith" alone. Little igor isn't perfect, but the sum of his genetics are greater than that which he himself has expressed so far at this age. I'm completely confident improvement will be the self evident result of a couple/few dashes inbreeding.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

for now they're just mutts...


----------



## Damicodric

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> You guys.
> Are all.
> So.
> Completely.
> Cooked.
> 
> 🤣


Phew!

Is there a needle in the haystack or is there a haystack around the needle?

It’s like Berno has this interesting whirlpool effect. It might be a gift; enviable.

Draw them in .... and 500 posts later it’s really nebulous, at best.

.,....And the pros will keep posting.

There’s not one amateur, newbie, etc who has learned a ....... thing.

Maybe some egos are stroked ... I dunno.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you get more needles when you recombine


----------



## Chip Blasiole

If he hasn’t expressed his desirable genetics they are not dominant/prepotent.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

he himself leaves a lot to be desired in the prey department, but we'll see what the muttpups do?


----------



## Damicodric

berno von der seeweise said:


> you get more needles when you recombine


Admittedly, I’ve missed the consensus.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

needle x inbreeding = needles


----------



## Damicodric

berno von der seeweise said:


> needle x inbreeding = needles


Gotta admit .... funny.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

well perhaps, but I'm certainly not joking


----------



## Damicodric

berno von der seeweise said:


> well perhaps, but I'm certainly not joking


Coming from a guy dropping pups into hot tubs.

Berno. You do you and continued success to you and your programs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

that's not a hot tub, it's a gorilla cart. The only thing agitating that water are the mighty muttpups puppypaddling.

I would not advise anyone to wean any litter before appx 30 days, nor separate and/or disperse any litter prior to 49 days/seven weeks old. Doing so is actually unlawful in some jurisdictions.


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> me? sounds pretty complicated? way above my paygrade, for sure. plus no terrier here, so?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree


I apologize for thinking it was some type of Terrier you bred a GSD to, not even sure why I thought that.
What breed did you use?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Oh, not at all. Please don't give it another thought. I appreciate you asking your friend. Thank you. Rather than insisting what breed/s I_ think _I know the dam is, when I figure out my next move here I'll double dna (mars and embark) and insist on whatever result I like best. 

I don't doubt for a nanosecond selecting "wean @ 3 weeks/separate pups @ 4 weeks" increases a line's propensity to bite* exponentially *; but frankly I'd be afraid to experiment with that myself. I've been dong it the old fashioned way for awhile and pretty satisfied with the results, so I fully intend to stick with what I know.


----------



## MyWifeIsBoss

Don't you all have husbands and/or wives to have futile, endless arguments over nothing with? 🤣


----------



## MyWifeIsBoss

Maybe not and or. Just or. Or partners.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

The wean thing is hypercritical because it represents the day a real working dog's career begins. Pups continue to learn adequate bite inhibition from each other throughout the following 3 weeks. I've observed this with my own eyes countless times. Pups ignore and exclude inappropriate biters from their games. I've weaned quite a few litters appx day 30 and never had an issue down the road with inappropriate biting. Not once.

I'm tellin' ya, folks. Berno knows exactly what he's talkin' about here. If you're trying to breed a real working litter, wean them in a little pen appx day 30. Pen should be small enough to clean quick and easy, several times daily. So you're not just picking up, you're bonding.

Keep a gentle little flirtpole right there, handy. Also provide seesaws, tunnels, balls, springpoles, etc. Don't just leave the gear laying around all the time or pups will just get bored. Pick up the pen, do a little flirtpole, identify the ones who want to work for praise, then provide the equipment for an hr or 2 at a time. If you're trying to breed real working dogs, give this a try. I guarantee you won't be disappointed with the results.

I'm quite convinced this is the only real difference between import pups vs import parents bred on this side of the pond.


----------



## Bearshandler

Berno, who is it you consider the best breeder in America?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The Dutch KNPV breeders do very little with their pups. They will either have the genetics to excel and take the very harsh training practices or wash. It is essentially a form of culling which has worked very well for them. They have outcrossed to other breeds to bring in or strengthen certain traits but I believe that is less common now and was not randomly or widely ever used.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I am my own favorite breeder, BH 

honestly I have no idea?


----------



## Bearshandler

Pretty evasive answer for someone not satisfied with what’s produced here.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> Pretty evasive answer for someone not satisfied with what’s produced here.


it's not a question of "satisfied." I've seen the difference with my own eyes and it's night and day. I'm looking at it right here, right now. My very own little muttpups would be far better off weaned in a corner of your basement.

I promise, BH

I'm HAMMERING this for the sake of honesty. They're going to look fabulous in the fotos, but in real life they'll never be what they would already have been.

next litter I'll do right and the difference will be self evident


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> it's not a question of "satisfied." I've seen the difference with my own eyes and it's night and day. I'm looking at it right here, right now. My very own little muttpups would be far better off weaned in a corner of your basement.
> 
> I promise, BH


You never answered what dogs you are comparing.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> The Dutch KNPV breeders do very little with their pups.


respectfully, Chip, I* GUARANTEE* you they wean and disperse in a timely fashion

it's fundamental. huge deal. makes all the difference in the world.



Bearshandler said:


> You never answered what dogs you are comparing.


 this is so elementary it doesn't even matter

any vs any will do


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'm so totally struggling conflicted over this I can't even bring myself to tie a new leather lure onto my reizangel yet

_hoooooo_nesty is _suuuuu_ch a lonely word!....


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The breeders I know around me who breed KNPV XMals keep all the pups together until they are sold and am pretty sure the Dutch breeders do the same. You are practicing self deception to cover something up that you don't want to come to terms with.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

nope

I say wean appx day 30 and disperse appx day 49

ask them how they do it

I'm not being deceptive, Chip. I'm being forthright.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

once we get this out of the way I can start posting FABULOUS fotos of muttpup bites

to do so beforehand would indeed be deceptive

Dead serious about this. I'm sitting here with new lure and string in hand, but I can't bring myself to proceed until we have this straight, once and for all. To do so would be totally disingenuous. I've said all along, you can't just put 2 dogs together and call it "improvement."

Now I'm saying, and I *really mean* this, you can't just raise a litter like pack of feral jackal cubs and call them "working prospects." There's a little more goes into to it than that.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> respectfully, Chip, I* GUARANTEE* you they wean and disperse in a timely fashion
> 
> it's fundamental. huge deal. makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> this is so elementary it doesn't even matter
> 
> any vs any will do


Bernie it’s pretty frustrating when you make assertions like this but can’t name who you think is a great breeder.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

saphire's mal breeder friend already effectively conceded, but saphire's mal breeder friend isn't a member of the consensus here. The academy, if you will.

I say again, you can't just raise a litter like a pack of feral jackal cubs and call them "working prospects." There's a little more goes into to it than that.

I'm not talking about triple pallets or flipper tests. I'm talking about proper weaning.

weaning is fundamental .

not one bite until somebody reputable concedes...


----------



## David Winners

From Mike Suttle 2009



> Just like with any other pup we bring up here, he will start with bio sensor work at day 3, move onto to noise and environmental exposure at around day 14, then we will begin to build drive and frustration and introduces him to puppy mazes and obsticals at about day 21 for his food. At about 6 weeks he will be back tied with the other pups to watch us work the older dogs. I build drive for all objects at a very early age (jerry can, metal keys, pvc, iron pipe, rag, young puppy sleeve, wooden box, etc) as he grows he will work on young dog sleeves and schH trial sleeves until he fully understands how to bite properly, he will learn to target different areas of the soft suit and then when he is ready he will work on the KNPV suit, just as Gerben said.
> The scent work will be imprinted just like I do in SchH (footsteps for food) to the article


----------



## berno von der seeweise

no good

we need firm wean and "adopt" (disperse) dates

I'm firm day 30 and 49, but I'm willing to accept a better breeder's dates

I don't mean to be difficult, it's just THAT important. I can see it. I'm looking at it right here, right now.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I know Mike does this and while I don’t see any harm I’m convinced of any real benefit as I has seen breedings that were half his lines raised all together until sold with no special treatment and turned out as well or better than some pups exposed to biosensor. I think it is largely genetics and some common sense.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

* _suuuuuuuuuuuch _a _looooonely_ word! *


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> * _suuuuuuuuuuuch _a _looooonely_ word! *


you are the self appointed expert. what are you trying to prove here.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't mean to be difficult, it's just THAT important. I can see it. I'm looking at it right here, right now. Somebody ask a better expert and let's move on.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't mean to be difficult, it's just THAT important. I can see it. I'm looking at it right here, right now.


Video what you are seeing right here right now and post it.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

nonsense

it's very simple, Winners. every second pup spends looking for it's dam is one less second it spends bonding with YOU

I say wean day 30, adopt day 49 

please ask a better expert so we can move on


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> I know Mike does this and while I don’t see any harm I’m convinced of any real benefit as I has seen breedings that were half his lines raised all together until sold with no special treatment and turned out as well or better than some pups exposed to biosensor. I think it is largely genetics and some common sense.


I was searching for D|ck and Selena posts on WDF to see what they do. No one post sums up their rearing program. They don't do much before 9 months besides some rag work and frustration / tie out stuff. D|ck is convinced bite quality is genetic and he doesn't do any mechanics until serious training starts.

I found a thread that you were involved in concerning rearing of SCH vs KNPV pups. Lots of sidebar in that thread but there were some good takeaways.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

it's critical, fundamental, elementary

I cannot in good conscience tie leather to reizangel here until this is settled

poor little mookie is SUFFERING here! 

he should have spent the day striking his new lure, but uncle berno simply _cannot bring himself_ to tie it onto the reizangel until we get some wean/adopt dates from a better expert


----------



## LuvShepherds

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Don't you all have husbands and/or wives to have futile, endless arguments over nothing with? 🤣


Apparently not.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> Apparently not.


They banned him!!!


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'm on the verge of existential crises here...

it's THAT important


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> They banned him!!!


Not surprising. He always walks the line. I don't know what its for tis time.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

He thinks it was for a comical picture he posted about pigeons..but who knows? They tend to administer corrections and expect you to auto correct without telling you what you did wrong. I assume it is permanent.. ban #3...


----------



## David Winners

The comical picture had profanity in it.

Multiple warnings and conversations.

It's permanent.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I can't imagine Modding these forums is a high paying job, so I see no sense in deliberately making more work for them. I've seen good forums go south real fast when the Mods walk away and the spambots take over. ((((((( Mods )))))))


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sending you a PM.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> what are you trying to prove here.


 I'm trying to firmly establish that every minute a 30 day old pup spends looking for it's dam is one less minute it spends looking to YOU for LEADERSHIP, because that fundamental concept is *paramount *(the ultimate nurture factor)

it takes a pup a few days to forget it's dam and begin looking to you, and every day is supercritical at that age

we can't even begin to have a legitimate conversation without this understanding


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Who was banned?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip Blasiole said:


> Who was banned?


MyWifeIsBoss.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm trying to firmly establish that every minute a 30 day old pup spends looking for it's dam is one less minute it spends looking to YOU for LEADERSHIP, because that fundamental concept is *paramount *(the ultimate nurture factor)
> 
> it takes a pup a few days to forget it's dam and begin looking to you, and every day is supercritical at that age
> 
> we can't even begin to have a legitimate conversation without this understanding


Seriously? Dude, I have seen tiny 2-3 week old kittens bail out on their mother to follow humans based on the sociability of their genetics.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you and your kittens, MAWL...

not a single bite until somebody asks a better expert

doesn't anyone even care about poor little mookie? he's suffering terribly here without anything to bite, and it's almost christmas eve! ((((((( mookie  )))))))


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

You gotta thing against kittens, Kitten?

None of my dogs ever suffered due to a lack of bites...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I cannot in good conscience proceed without complete terminological exactitude and definitional clarity

everybody already knows what I think (days 30 and 49)

everybody already knows what saphire's mal breeder friend thinks (page 23)

let's somebody please ask a "top tier" or "malx" or whatever breeder so mookie can finally bite already?

I'm not asking for much here


----------



## berno von der seeweise

because it really is THAT big of a deal and we can't even begin to have a legitimate conversation about any of it without at least _SOME_ vague concept of wean


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I'm confused. You seem to be asking advise for a MWD or LE but your intent is for a herder to guard and protect... different qualifications needed...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you do it Winners. We all trust you. Please get us a third opinion on wean date.

please stop pettifogging MAWL. It's only a number. I've said my numbers 1000 times here.

somebody? anybody? do it for mookie's sake?...

,


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Pettifogging? Genetics is not pettifogging. No one dog is expected to be the end all be all. The _breed _ is supposed to be capable of all... never best... but quite capable despite the venue. It's a matter of selecting the one pup that has been appropriately genetically bred, never about forcing a square peg into a round hole.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

nobody has any reason to fear a third opinion on wean date, MAWL

and I simply cannot in good conscience proceed without one


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Not saying you should or shouldn't but you certainly have had a lot of professional input on the topic.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

3rd opinion enables those who wish to calculate the avg

"let the dam wean on her own" doesn't count because it's not a number


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Because nature is not a finite number... she is capricious and whimsical and each bitch has her own predetermined by nature time table.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Science... no whimsy. no crapici... Scientific method.

mookie needs another number for christmas, folks


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Absolutely.. nature is science... and nature doesn't paint herself into a corner. Each dam, litter, breed, and puppy is different.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> you do it Winners. We all trust you. Please get us a third opinion on wean date.
> 
> please stop pettifogging MAWL. It's only a number. I've said my numbers 1000 times here.
> 
> somebody? anybody? do it for mookie's sake?...
> 
> ,


No

Because no top tier breeder would touch this train wreck with a 10 foot flirt pole.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I cannot in good conscience proceed without a third opinion/hard number on wean

to do so would be completely disingenuous

_hoooonestyyyyyyy is haaaardly ever her-erd!_

I'm doin' the elvis lip now


----------



## berno von der seeweise

raising litters is not a freeform abstract improvisational event

there's this little thing they call wean, and you need to know what it is


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Spend time in rescue and come back at me with that one...


----------



## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> Science... no whimsy. no crapici... Scientific method.
> 
> mookie needs another number for christmas, folks


Haven't followed every remark in this thread, but here's a short paper from Purdue that speaks to pros and cons of weaning and separation schedules: https://extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/VA/VA-11-W.pdf

My first concern would be long term benefits vs. detriments. One pointed comment that speaks to working dogs states...

_*"Slabbert and Rasa (1997) found that puppies of nine to 12 weeks of age that were allowed to observe their dams performing narcotics searches were better narcotics detectors at six months of age than those without the benefit of such observational learning opportunities. "*_

But it also seems to support the idea of early separation effects on bite mechanics - but with a caveat...

_*"Puppies separated from their dams and littermates too early often tend to bite more readily and harder than those that are separated at eight weeks of age (Lindsay, 2000; Fox and Stelzner, 1967), and they may also develop other behavioral problems as adults, such as high reactivity, anxiety, attachment-related problems, and inter-dog aggression (Lindsay, 2000; Pfaffenberger, 1963). " 
*_
So I guess it's a matter of values, priorities and repeat outcomes. Overall, those with little or no breeding background seem to get ahead of things in this kind of topic, finding criticisms in the minutia, where the breeder's goals are macro oriented for an eventual outcome. And, that is always a multi-generational outcome before anything is usefully consistent. It's fascinating and exhausting. If you have the stick-to-it-ness to follow thru, Berno, you're much more patient than I would ever be. Just a thought.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I come @ you with _so far_ saphire's mal breeder friend says wean @ 4 weeks, crate individuals @ 5 weeks, MAWL

have fun @ your rescue


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I come @ you with _so far_ saphire's mal breeder friend says wean @ 4 weeks, crate individuals @ 5 weeks, MAWL
> 
> have fun @ your rescue


I retired from rescue long ago... passed the torch...nothing has changed since then...

...Chip's KNPV breeders diverge from Saphire's pal ... food for thought...


----------



## Rionel

A little while ago someone (maybe Mr. Winners?) posted a recommendation for a Mal breeder in VA (I think). It was a top notch outfit that did a lot of environmental work with pups, including prerecorded storms and/or gunfire. There's an area you can utilize too Berno.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

berno has 25 and 50 metre target rages conveniently situated between his keyboard and coffeepot, thanks

little mookie needs another number for xmas, folks


----------



## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> little mookie needs another number for xmas, folks


How about splitting the litter. Take your strongest half and remove them early. Leave the weakest half to nurse for 7-10 weeks, with natural gradual weaning, and compare for all behavioral and physiological factors, after 12-20 weeks. That could work and you might see the initially weakest, less impressive pups outperforming the initially strong and outgoing.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> How about splitting the litter. Take your strongest half and remove them early.


how about let's don't say "early?" how about let's say berno says appx 30 days, more specifically when the strongest half begins crunching the dam's 'ol roy? that's definitely cold war era universal standard operating communist bloc procedure...

going once! going twice!!


----------



## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> how about let's don't say "early?" how about let's say berno says appx 30 days, more specifically when the strongest half begins crunching the dam's 'ol roy? that's definitely cold war era universal standard operating communist bloc procedure...
> 
> going once! going twice!!







__





jim carrey so you're saying there's a chance meme - Google Search






www.google.com


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I guess poor little mookie just won't have a christmas this year


----------



## Sabis mom

Rionel said:


> "Puppies separated from their dams and littermates too early often tend to bite more readily and harder than those that are separated at eight weeks of age (Lindsay, 2000; Fox and Stelzner, 1967), and they may also develop other behavioral problems as adults, such as high reactivity, anxiety, attachment-related problems, and inter-dog aggression (Lindsay, 2000; Pfaffenberger, 1963). "


THIS!!! 100%


----------



## Saphire

berno von der seeweise said:


> I come @ you with _so far_ saphire's mal breeder friend says wean @ 4 weeks, crate individuals @ 5 weeks, MAWL
> 
> have fun @ your rescue


Yes but she still allows access to the Dam and littermates.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

yes, of course. I'm sorry, I don't mean to imply anything negative about the program you cited. I don't doubt for a minute your source knows *exactly* what she's doing. It's just that her program is a little beyond the technical scope of what I'm trying to accomplish with this thread.

my main point being, the_ berno method_ is so simple, nearly any moron can do it

it's foolproof!


----------



## Sabis mom

@berno von der seeweise You and I are at fundamental odds on dogs. 
I believe that a dog that has the genetics will develop _in spite of _inept handling. What happens is again dictated by genetics.
I have handled and raised some great dogs that were great dogs in spite of me not because of me, and I often said about some of them that they would have been awesome regardless of who owned them because they were great dogs.
But I also believe that a dog that is bonded to a good owner will move mountains for that owner, regardless of its limitations. 
A huge part of being a good handler/owner is recognizing what your dog is. What potential is there and what limitations. 
When I was training horses I was always told to throw my heart over first and the horse would follow. The same is true of dogs. 
But with that needs to be acknowledgement that these are living creatures, with their own agenda and their own needs. I respect my dogs so my dogs respect me. I raise them with all that I can give them. You can shape a dog into whatever you like, but if I'm facing trouble I want to know that the partner watching my back is doing so because it wants to, not because it was made to. You can train, imprint and condition all you want but that will get you equipment, it will never get you a partner. 
So I firmly believe that any act of depriving a pup of what it needs will create a scar that will impede its ability. A skilled and caring handler may smooth that scar later, but it is added work that did not need to happen.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'm so sorry, little mookie. Father christmas just isn't coming, and no one even cares


----------



## Sabis mom

Ok I'm sorry but




__





Neverending Story Flying Dog - Bing


Find high-quality images, photos, and animated GIFS with Bing Images




www.bing.com




I think I know what those pups are!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I appreciate the Ethology, MAWL, but that's your gig. I'm more the Zynologie type, and we're heavy into wean. I've done it both ways, and the old ddr way works much better for my purposes. It's worth noting that Saphire's mal breeder friend is basically "custom tailored" breeding for the sport and LE segments. I guarantee she don't sell culls in the local newspaper to pet homes. I say again, pups learn bite inhibition from each other, so I just let them all chew on each other as long as they're here.

Wean a litter @ appx 30 days and co-house until 49 day *vpat*. Some of the pups will be more drivey than others so try to place them in _THE RIGHT_ homes, right away. Couch potato "companion quality" pups are more easily homed, so if you have to be "stuck" finding a home for anything, it's better to be "stuck" finding a pet home for a couch potato.










I'll say a few words about what we here @ berno's great northwoods redoubt refer to as "the cute gene." I've been breeding dogs for a long time, and once in awhile you get a "too cute to be true" pup. Beware of such individuals. Hold them to a higher standard. Don't make excuses for them, because in my experience they often don't make the cut. I've learned that the hard way. Luckily this individual isn't one of them. Eyes front, vlcica!










this little mugwump climbed 5 stairs on her own today. 38 days old. I had to talk her back down, but she made it. She looks a little more gsd, to me. Mookie is another type all together and that speaks to the prepotency of the other side of the ped. This should prove interesting...

Now I'm* WAYYY *late imprinting those win bites here. These things should have already been snappin' all. day. long. for a full week. I'm basically a flirt pole expert and there's just the 2 so we'll catch up ok here. However you really do want to get at a litter with the reizangel as soon as they emerge from the whelping box. Doing so builds up the jaws for that appx 30 day wean, plus you want to be identifying the ones that want to wok for praise ASAP.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

truth is they're eating 'ol roy just fine for a week now, MAWL. If I were trying to place these 2 in protection or sport homes, I would have* OWED IT *to those homes to have them weaned appx day 30. There's just _no two ways_ about that imo. Next litter out I will do just that, because DDR genetics are adapted accordingly. We ain't talkin' kittys here, nor cookie dogs, nor timber wolves.

The time has come for us to get down on the flirtpole w/ some old time 'ol roy subzero byb crackerjacker whippersnapper christmas mornin' mambajambas! YEE HAW, Y'ALL!!!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

that's why I keep saying "appx" Countess...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

While asking for specifics.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I never care to dictate, unless/until I have to. It's an INTJ thing.










I'm thinking about changing little mookie's name to patches


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

best christmas EVER! this thing is absolutely crazy!!



















I ain't even kiddin' about whelping on a hill. Look at the condition on 'em.









247 baby!! TCB










this is what "imprinting bite inhibition" looks like on uncle berno's place 
39 days old


----------



## berno von der seeweise

regarding biosensor, if you do it just right it might be beneficial? If you do it wrong it might be detrimental? or so they say... I don't mess with it because pups whelped in a cold box, on straw, on a hill, are already "overstimulated" according to the biosensor curriculum. If my litters were whelped indoors I'd probably preach biosensor like gospel? Bottom line, stimulations is good. Just be careful not to over do it.

I fear we may have made this wean thing sound a little more complicated than it actually is. I fear juggling two different dates, two different events, may lead to some confusion. The wean event = *separating* a litter from the dam. Appx 30 days, according to me. I wish somebody would survey "top tier" MIL/LE breeders and post their appx avg.

Day 49 is the day pups become available for placement in new homes. Doing so effectively *separates* pups from their siblings. Again, according to me. And again, I wish somebody would survey "top tier" MIL/LE breeders and post their appx avg.

but the point is, don't get day 30 _WEAN_ and day 49 _ADOPT_ mixed up in your head. Two very distinct, unrelated events. It's important to keep a good solid handle on that very clear differentiation.

for all I know "top tier" may do days 28 and 42? or maybe that's strictly a bsd thing? no idea here?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

also I should reiterate, yet again, these are *only* mutts here. No matter how good a foto I ever happen to catch, no matter how good I ever manage to make them look, you can't just outbreed and rightly call it "improvement." This is only step one in the process of founding a line.

come to think of it I should probably ask right now just to get it out of the way

Mods? may I speak freely about inbreeding here? or would that be a violation of forum rules?


----------



## dogma13

"A forum community dedicated to all German Shepherd owners and enthusiasts" taken from the home page.An ongoing thread about creating a new breed doesn't belong on a GSD forum.
You are welcome to start a new thread about the pros and cons of line breeding and inbreeding GSDs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I'm definitely not trying to "create a new breed" here, Your Honor. If it pleases The Court, backcrossing only increases gsd content, bringing it one step closer to fullblood gsd. But I'll just save that for perhaps some future thread, someday, as per your instruction. Thank you.


----------



## dogma13

Seems like you already did. You just need to name it. Bernedoodle is already taken. Curly coated terrier looking dam x GSD =?You could start a blog or a YouTube channel.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

well I certainly wouldn't call it "berno's knpv channel," but no terrier

franco-belgian-dutch genetics

8 days 'till *vpat*, Your Honor


----------



## LuvShepherds

Berno-doodle is not taken.


----------



## Tikkie

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm definitely not trying to "create a new breed" here, Your Honor. If it pleases The Court, backcrossing only increases gsd content, bringing it one step closer to fullblood gsd. But I'll just save that for perhaps some future thread, someday, as per your instruction. Thank you.


Thats now how this works... not how any of this works 😂🤷‍♀️


----------



## berno von der seeweise

LuvShepherds said:


> Berno-doodle is not taken.


apparently it is now

tikkie? aren't you a show breeder? I was hoping maybe you could take just a moment of your time to illuminate all of us "top tier" working experts over here about _when and how_ to wean a litter. Because apparently none of us have any idea what we're doing with any of that...

TIA


----------



## Lexie’s mom

I am sorry, maybe it a language barrier or age difference or me being inexperienced with GS although I had dogs for almost 40 years of my life including the very 1st one, a Great Dane that my parents got when she was 28 days old, it was back in 1985. We had her for almost 8 years and she died because of a bloat. She was well trained and well socialized and protective but the effort it took us... versus all the dogs after her over the years.... why would you intentionally subject yourself and the pups to all that torture to have a possible protection candidate? To protect you from what?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't quite understand what you mean by "torture?" As for "protecting me," do I even need to explain what happens if a badguy ever makes the mistake of trying to resist my dog? If push ever comes to shove, ultimately the handler is protecting the dog. At least, that's how the real world works out here on the fringe.









as far as "protection" this is more than enough for me, personally. Gimme couple sleeve junkies and I'm all set. I figure two is better than one, right?


----------



## Lexie’s mom

We don’t even lock the doors even when we go on vacation, leaving dogs with a petsitter, a barking dog is more than enough, nobody around here ever had any need to have a protection trained dog. Maybe it’s a totally different situation in your heck of the woods! We live on 15 acres surrounded by refuge, little rural CT town.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Biting a sport sleeve in and of itself has little to nothing to do with a dog being civil.


----------



## Tikkie

berno von der seeweise said:


> apparently it is now
> 
> tikkie? aren't you a show breeder? I was hoping maybe you could take just a moment of your time to illuminate all of us "top tier" working experts over here about _when and how_ to wean a litter. Because apparently none of us have any idea what we're doing with any of that...
> 
> TIA


Showbreeder? 
How did you come to that conclusion? 😂

From this point forward your dogs will he mutts and not German Shepherd dogs since you crossed into terriers. Its as simple as that. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Tikkie

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 567553
> 
> 
> best christmas EVER! this thing is absolutely crazy!!
> 
> View attachment 567554
> 
> 
> View attachment 567555
> 
> 
> I ain't even kiddin' about whelping on a hill. Look at the condition on 'em.
> 
> View attachment 567556
> 
> 247 baby!! TCB
> 
> View attachment 567557
> 
> 
> this is what "imprinting bite inhibition" looks like on uncle berno's place
> 39 days old


Do you have any pictures where they look more confident than this?
These are not exactly flattering or anything I would even brag about.
I would like to see head and tail up, forward going posture...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> Biting a sport sleeve in and of itself has little to nothing to do with a dog being civil.


they certainly won't be "more" civil than their sire



Tikkie said:


> Showbreeder?
> How did you come to that conclusion? 😂


At this point I only wish some show breeder would speak up and teach us about wean. No more fotos until we get that settled. This is not a disinformation thread.

Can't even begin to have a legitimate discussion without it. Days 30 - 49 aren't "day by day" phenomena. It's closer to hour by hour, and the "hand-eye" coordination which develops is more critical than words. Not to mention the human bonding.



Tikkie said:


> From this point forward your dogs will he mutts


I said it first


----------



## WIBackpacker

This article very recently made the rounds in some higher level working dog circles. It doesn’t provide a black and white road map for rearing litters, but the insight into dam/puppy/additional spheres of influence on nutrition and development is relatable. 









Pup rearing: The role of mothers and allomothers in free-ranging domestic dogs


Allomaternal care (AMC) is provided to the offspring by individuals other than the genetic mother, including several seemingly altruistic behaviors su…




www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## Honey Maid

berno von der seeweise said:


> well, we can't all be you, Chief  some of us have to shop local.


You put that very well, my thoughts exactly!


----------



## David Winners

Honey Maid said:


> You put that very well, my thoughts exactly!


My comment was referencing the NEED for a personal protection dog, not the want to do the training yourself or be part of the process. If you NEED a PPD, you need one now, and you need a dog that will perform. If you think it would be nice to have a dog that will probably protect you, then by all means, pick a puppy that you feel can fulfill that role. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Lexie’s mom said:


> a barking dog is more than enough


 I would say 99 out of 100, or perhaps 999 out of 1000 times, a barking dog is enough. And in the case of that truly violent, truly determined exception, the well trained dog only buys you a few extra seconds. 






folks, if we keep bashing the terriers, sooner or later the terrierfolk are gonna show up and troll the heck out of these forums. In case anybody doesn't already know, they're quite a determined lot, so please do us all a favor and knock it off.

terrier don't even enter into this, but if it did, I'd only brag on it...


----------



## dogma13

The picture you posted of the dam looks very much like a terrier.Nobody is bashing them, in fact I really like them.What I most admire about a well bred terrier is how they seem to radiate confidence and good cheer.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

there's just something about Dogma's contributions that put me in a better mood, everytime  As long as we were being all critical here I was just about to express my opinion of the inherited angulation illustrated on page 28, but now I'm just not in the mood.


----------



## LuvShepherds

berno von der seeweise said:


> I would say 99 out of 100, or perhaps 999 out of 1000 times, a barking dog is enough. And in the case of that truly violent, truly determined exception, the well trained dog only buys you a few extra seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> folks, if we keep bashing the terriers, sooner or later the terrierfolk are gonna show up and troll the heck out of these forums. In case anybody doesn't already know, they're quite a determined lot, so please do us all a favor and knock it off.
> 
> terrier don't even enter into this, but if it did, I'd only brag on it...


Trolling is not, should not be allowed here. I trust if anyone trolls, Dogma and others will handle it and you may never even know it happened.


----------



## dogma13

Beware Trolls!You must answer 5, I mean 3 questions to be admitted to the GSD forum☠😂


----------



## Honey Maid

David Winners said:


> My comment was referencing the NEED for a personal protection dog, not the want to do the training yourself or be part of the process. If you NEED a PPD, you need one now, and you need a dog that will perform. If you think it would be nice to have a dog that will probably protect you, then by all means, pick a puppy that you feel can fulfill that role. That's all I'm saying.


Got it! Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Tikkie

There is no right or wrong with weaning. You go off of what the puppies show you. Usually its between 3 and 4 weeks old and happens gradually.
You offer the food 3 to 4 times a day and start putting water out. 
Its not rocket science.... 🤷‍♀️


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Ohhh! Lookout everybody!! Tikkie weans ‘em sharper than malinois! Around here there’s* ALWAYS *water out for a dam. I think I may have mentioned it earlier, but I’m firm day 30 wean, cold turkey (xmas pun not withstanding).










In the interest of full disclosure, cold and snowy here tonight, so I decided to give the mutts a little warm goatmilk before bed. Me, not them. I go to bed, they prowl around off and on out here all night long now. I gave them their treat up on that same old rusty metal whelpingbox roof from before, and I’ll do it like this a few times until they train to the routine. So a few days from now, when you see fotos of 40ish day old muttcicles scaling a near vertical pallet in order to get up there on their own, you’ll know exactly what motivated them to accomplish the feat. Because the mutt that scales and wins now will scale and win for life.










look at those fat things! This is ridiculous. I must be going soft in my old age here…


----------



## Tikkie

What is wrong with you?
No one ever said there was not water for the mother.
Putting water out for the pups means putting water out they can reach!

please troll yourself. I dont have time for your games.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't really know what to say? Do I appear to be attempting to misrepresent the mutts as "psa 3" material? If so, that was never my intention. So far they seem pretty tough, but 6 weeks old is a little early to make that call. Did the pallet/roof/warm goatmilk thing again just now and they're catching on quick. Bites aren't where they would have been with proper 30 day wean, but we'll get there.


----------



## Bearshandler

Michael Ellis doesn’t separate his puppies until 8 weeks.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

here again, let's be careful not to blur 2 totally different events

30 day* wean* is about separating pups from their dam

I _absolutely guarantee_ ellis weans long before 8 weeks


----------



## Tikkie

Can you please define weaning and what it means to you? Because I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here.
Weaning and separating puppies rom their mother has zero impact on how puppies bite.
I let the mother naturally wean from her puppies. The mother chooses when she goes in and out of the puppy area. Mothers play, naturally correct behavior, work puppies through problems and show them the world.
I know some high level working dog breeders will entirely separate mothers but I could care less about what they do. Their goals are not the same as my goals.


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> here again, let's be careful not to blur 2 totally different events
> 
> 30 day* wean* is about separating pups from their dam
> 
> I _absolutely guarantee_ ellis weans long before 8 weeks


I said what I said, and I know exactly what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

somebody should just ask ellis "when do you normally wean?"

ellis is cool and It's a legit question. Makes all the difference in the world.



Tikkie said:


> Can you please define weaning and what it means to you? Because I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here.


wean the berno way: when half the pups get into the dams kibble, remove the dam from the whelping pen. Done. No more nursing. No more dam. That's all there is to it. At that point the litter's bond transitions _from _the dam _to_ a human being. This marks the beginning of a real working dog's career (appx 30 days).

if you're flirt poling them proper, by 30 days even the best dam can't get away fast enough. It's not a "sad" event at all. The dam is like "it's about darn time you got me out of there, you fool!"


----------



## Tikkie

I feel the puppies are missing out when the dam is entirely removed from the puppies. There is a natural process to weaning. Even my sire takes his job very seriously and is not removed from the puppies. There is no need to. 🤷‍♀️
But to each their own! Everyone has different goals and philosophies.


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> This marks the beginning of a real working dog's career


How many real working dogs have you handled? Define real working dog.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> How many real working dogs have you handled? Define real working dog.


Obviously it varies somewhat according to genetics and venue, but that little 4 through 16 week window of "imprinting opportunity" cannot be underestimated. And that absolutely does work both ways. As the purdue study correctly concluded, early wean _substantially_ increases propensity to bite, and that's not anything to be toyed with. Hence the fact that I've been hammering away for some definitive working gsd specific answer. I know "30 day wean" was universal with the other ddr breeds, but I don't want to just willy nilly declare that as "gsd correct" because the gsd I'm working with here is an entirely different animal. The other breeds were FAR more prey driven.


----------



## Lexie’s mom

It doesn’t sound to me like a “little window” 4-16 weeks in perspective of a puppy development and socializing.


----------



## Bearshandler

The answer I got for Michael Ellis is the puppies are usually done nursing around 7 weeks, give or take a few days. Those dogs certainly bite.


----------



## Bearshandler

If a dog doesn’t have what it takes to do the work mentally, it won’t be able to do the work. Weaning early isn’t going to change that. I think one of the basis of your argument is that good working dogs aren’t produced on this side of the pond. That is a very flawed argument.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> puppies are usually done nursing around 7 weeks, give or take a few days.


nope. not even close. Trust me, BH, you don't want to be the one who dropped that name in the above sentence. Just edit. We'll get it all straightened out sooner or later. This isn't something I learned on the interwebs. First I was told. Then I observed. Sometime over the past year I found a reference about it regarding pohranicni straze, and finally the other day rionel posted a purdue study.

If it weren't so important, I wouldn't be making such a big deal about it. For me to not hammer this point would be totally dishonest.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> nope. not even close. Trust me, BH, you don't want to be the one who dropped that name in the above sentence. Just edit. We'll get it all straightened out sooner or later. This isn't something I learned on the interwebs. First I was told. Then I observed. Sometime over the past year I found a reference about it regarding pohranicni straze, and finally the other day rionel posted a purdue study.
> 
> If it weren't so important, I wouldn't be making such a big deal about it.


So you asked for Michael Ellis' opinion, instead of getting it yourself like the whole forum is here to do your bidding and hanging on your every word, and then after it didn't align with your own opinion, you're calling BH a liar after he was nice enough to indulge you.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

aw, bunk! BH ain't lyin'. He's only mistaken.

the 3 weeks fang eye coordination in question alone make all the difference in the world, and that doesn't even begin to take into account the human leadership factor

I know what I'm talkin' about here, Winners


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> aw, bunk! BH ain't lyin'. He's only mistaken.


Nope. Not even close. You might want to go edit that post.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'd sooner make it my new signature


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## berno von der seeweise

the only reason any breeder let's a litter nurse 'till 6 weeks is to save on kibble

that's not how it's done, Winners. Mark my words.


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## David Winners

If anyone needs moderation in this thread, just report the post. I really see no need in reading this nonsense.


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## berno von der seeweise

Tikkie said:


> Usually its between 3 and 4 weeks old


so far Tikkie's answer is closest to right, but 3 weeks is a little too sharp for me

could just be different genetics?


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## Lexie’s mom

The saving on kibbles part is absolutely ridiculous... you should not be breeding if you want to save on kibbles.. this is like the last thing that you should be concerned about after having a litter!


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## Chip Blasiole

Time of weaning is probably the least salient aspect of “selecting a protection prospect.” Plus, they still have to be trained.


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## berno von der seeweise

there's a_ direct correlation _between wean and propensity to bite. It's_ well established_. Science.

what this means, Chip, because I _didn't _wean the 2 mutts on time, in a whelping pen, _like a real breeder_, every foto henceforth is essentially a fake

thus the reason I'm so conflicted here


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## dogma13

Leerburg begins weaning puppies between 4 and 4 1/2 weeks. I'm neither mistaken nor lying.He's also a "real" breeder.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> aw, bunk! BH ain't lyin'. He's only mistaken.
> 
> the 3 weeks fang eye coordination in question alone make all the difference in the world, and that doesn't even begin to take into account the human leadership factor
> 
> I know what I'm talkin' about here, Winners


You still haven't answered my questions.
You keep asking others for info without giving any.
Have you ever raised a working dog? Handled a working dog? Trained a working dog? Titled any dog in anything?
You keep citing these experts, but that's all hearsay. I raised litters destined for work. There is a massive difference between a bitch choosing to stop nursing and yanking pups away from her. I have seen bitches that spend as little time as allowed near their pups and bitches who flip when kept away. And it varies from litter to litter and pup to pup sometimes. I have never seen a GOOD breeder say ok, times up off you go. If a bitch is struggling with motherhood they may help the weaning along for her sake, they may say these pups are ready but this one should stay longer, they may say this is a rough timeline. BUT NO GOOD BREEDER SAYS 30 DAYS, YOU ARE FINISHED!


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## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> aw, bunk! BH ain't lyin'. He's only mistaken.
> 
> the 3 weeks fang eye coordination in question alone make all the difference in the world, and that doesn't even begin to take into account the human leadership factor
> 
> I know what I'm talkin' about here, Winners


I would ask you how you think I got that information, but I’m going to skip straight to the point. You do what you feel you need to. When you produce a dog you think will live up to what I expect from a working dog, you let me know. I guarantee I’ll be traveling again by October, and I’ll gladly pay you a visit during my job search. I like New Orleans food anyway.


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## berno von der seeweise

dogma13 said:


> Leerburg begins weaning puppies between 4 and 4 1/2 weeks. I'm neither mistaken nor lying.He's also a "real" breeder.


YAY! Dogma strikes again!! days 28-31

worthy of note is the fact that leerburg does it "The Tikkie" way

follow Tikkie everybody. Follow Dogma too (click the icons, then click follow)

I'm quite certain the ellis school response is only a typo

prolly just an intern or something...

I say again:



berno von der seeweise said:


> because I _didn't _wean the 2 mutts on time, _like a real breeder _[like Tikkie and leerburg] every foto henceforth is essentially a fake


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> YAY! Dogma strikes again!! days 28-31


"starts weaning" Note the starts in there, as in offering food.


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## dogma13

We're all interested in your experience with working dogs per Sabi's question. Tell us.


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> "starts weaning" Note the starts in there, as in offering food.


the way it normally works, the most vigorous pups get into the dam's bowl first. And when they get to where they're robbing a significant portion of the dam's dinner, it time to get her out of there. In other words "more food" is not the answer. Better to move the dam out and begin feeding puppy sized portions on a puppy schedule (frequent)



dogma13 said:


> We're all interested in your experience with working dogs per Sabi's question. Tell us.


in terms of propensity to bite? well Your Honor, my sleeve collection certainly didn't tear itself up packed away in a box somewhere


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## Lexie’s mom

What if a dam/mom is being fed separately and the pups while being weaned get their own mushed food?


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> they way it normally works, the most vigorous pups get into the dam's bowl first. And when they get to where they're robbing a significant portion of the dam's dinner, it time to get her out of there. In other words "more food" is not the answer. Better to move the dam out and begin feeding puppy sized portions on a puppy schedule (frequent)


A) most bitches aren't fed in the whelping box, at least after the first week.
B) No good breeder would allow pups to "rob" their dam of food, in fact a good breeder is probably near to free feeding dams.
C) All breeders I know offer soft mush to pups for first meals


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## Lexie’s mom

I need to get some pics from the old computer somehow. The mom would sleep on the couch probably a week or 10 days later after the babies were born but my other 2 females a mother and daughter.. and the daughter was barely a year old would go inside the whelping box and cuddle with the pups.


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## Tikkie

At this point I believe that we are dealing with a major troll here.


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## Tikkie

....


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## dogma13

berno von der seeweise said:


> the way it normally works, the most vigorous pups get into the dam's bowl first. And when they get to where they're robbing a significant portion of the dam's dinner, it time to get her out of there. In other words "more food" is not the answer. Better to move the dam out and begin feeding puppy sized portions on a puppy schedule (frequent)
> 
> 
> 
> in terms of propensity to bite? well Your Honor, my sleeve collection certainly didn't tear itself up packed away in a box somewhere


That's rather vague. What specific breeds and specific work did they do?


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## berno von der seeweise

A) whelping *pen. *Nobody said anything about "undersocialized." From appx 30 days (_wean_) thru 49 days (_eval and placement_), pups learn adequate bite inhibition from each other. 

at this point my credentials don't even matter, because I didn't illustrate proper wean, so it may as well all be a fake. No amount of lucky fotos will ever make up for proper wean. It's that important, and I'd be _totally dishonest _not to say so.


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## dogma13

Your credentials are of utmost importance. What experience do you have with working dogs and which breeds in the 20years of experience you've posted about.


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## Tikkie

While I follow science closely, I have not seen the study from Purdue about biting. I do however have decades of observation behind me.

Wean them between 3 to 4 weeks. Keep them in a safe environment. No undue stress! There is good and bad stress, you need to know when to apply it and to know the difference!
Single event learning is a thing! It exists and it is very powerful! Chaining events and situations is a thing! Its powerful and exists!
Just let them grow! Let them explore, let them blossom! Let them actually be puppies! Enrich their lives. If the drive and confidence is there I dont worry about whether or not they will bite! I make sure to use dogs whose genetics back them up. If I see strong mannerisms coming down throughout the generations its likely that they will get passed on.
Mannerisms show very early on. Expressions, head kocks, how they carry themselves, the way they lift their leg and tilt their heads, all of that can be passed on from on generation to another and if that is passed on, chances are so is drive, hardness, possession and fight.
The key is to know your dogs and whats behind them. Too many only ever breed one or two generations and have no idea what to look for and who passes what on.
Mom there or not, I let mine make the choice and they go in and out of the puppy area as they please. Yes, Moms will correct puppies for being too rough. Its an important part for them to learn and it has yet to keep them from becoming valuable working prospects.
Breed for a well rounded dogs and it’ll all fall into place.

If you prefer Terriers, why not just get an Airdale instead?


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## Chip Blasiole

berno von der seeweise said:


> there's a_ direct correlation _between wean and propensity to bite. It's_ well established_. Science.
> 
> what this means, Chip, because I _didn't _wean the 2 mutts on time, in a whelping pen, _like a real breeder_, every foto henceforth is essentially a fake
> 
> thus the reason I'm so conflicted here


Correlation does not imply causation. Train a as many dogs as possible under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing for at least five years and then go back to breeding.


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## dogma13

Back around to berno's 20 years of experience. How about a couple of stories about your favorite breeds and dogs over the years? What did they excel at during their working years? What did they teach you?
Another thing I thought about last night when I took the dogs out and it was so bright outside with the full moon reflecting off the snow - how many puppies have you lost over the years to owls mistaking them for rabbits if they're out wandering at night? None I hope!


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## berno von der seeweise

The saga of berno, chapter one. I’ve been fooling around with the other breeds for 20 yrs. Schnauzer, dobe, et al. Prior to that I’d been around gsd all my life. The big all over pre-german reunification kind. Lots of whites in those days, too. My last gsd came from mr. westminster himself. His hand to mine. She was a bad-boll x lance of franjo cross and at about 5 or 6 months old, just as the family was sitting down to sunday supper, she let out a ghastly howl and dropped dead as a stone on the dinning room floor.

Winter. Ground was frozen solid. “Luckily” I’m one of those kind of people who owns an old pick mattock and knows what it’s used for. Anyone who’s ever chipped a grave out of frozen earth understands what a lesson that taught me. Shortly thereafter I called mr. westminster himself and told him my sad tale. Naturally he offered to replace. “No thanks” I said, feeling as though I’d ordered a grilled cheese at waffle house and they brought it to me with a cockroach lurking inside. “Would you like another one, sir?” No thank you. May I have the check, please?

The kids were a wreck for weeks. My middle one, the smart one, must have been about 4 yrs old at the time? Absolutely beside herself. Days later, “you have to eat something, kid. It’s freezing out there. If you don’t eat, you’ll die.” Through tear filled eyes she demanded “I know, but what’s the point?” Like I said, very smart kid. Obviously she takes after me 

So I never have, and never will, buy another “akc purebred” dog again. I got no use for papers and I just don't care. That attitude alone opened up a lot of doors for me along the way. Plus I like to decoy. I’m not a sporty hooligan decoy who wants to run your dog so the training director can sell you a new one. I’m the kind of decoy who likes to convince ANY dog he’s bullet proof. I let the dog win everytime, I don’t care what breed. I’ll convince a standard poodle he’s a sherman tank and have fun doing it. I have, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately the old boy gripped a cranky ups by the arm and his mommy got a nasty letter about it. He’s not allowed to play with uncle berno anymore.

But anyway, what were we talking about again? Ah, yes, owls. To date no predator has ever claimed one of my animals and I have to keep it that way. Because if any predator ever gets one of my animals, the predators will keep coming back, and keep coming back, until all my animals are gone.

So the “wean early increases propensity to bite” cuts both ways. “Wean late increases bite inhibition.” The other breeds are really easy. Wean appx 30 days and they’re just snappin’. It’s like all they want to do. Ddr gsd may be just as easy? But I don’t know yet, because I didn’t wean this first litter.

In the meantime, at least as far as I’m concerned, leerburg’s credentials speak for themselves.

Vet has an airedale cross in the works and I am curious about it, but I really don't want to backcross "high maintenance" coats, so I'll most likely take a pass. At this point I'm most interested in backcrossing out of a maremma and founding an overized white line. Hopefully my doing so will be a little less "provocative."


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## Chip Blasiole

That’s a longwinded way of saying you practice superstitious thinking.


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## berno von der seeweise

in short, Chip, I think there's quite a bit of "no man's land" between what I regard as "utility" and what you regard as "high performance"

but I never have called you "wrong" until this wean thing, because I'm telling you it's that important


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## dogma13

It is a bit superstitious.Chances are slim of lightening striking twice like that. Sorry for your loss. How traumatic for the family that must have been.
You honestly don't believe that breeding a dog of unknown origin/health history to a puppy of unknown health history will somehow lessen the odds of health and temperament issues? I don't understand the logic.

What work do your dogs do? Patrol?Herd?

Chip is entitled to his opinion as we all are.


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## Chip Blasiole

I don’t know what you mean by utility but having a “high performance” dog with the capacity to actual protect seems utilitarian.


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## berno von der seeweise

I have to cut some wood here before the snow flies real quick, so I'll have to answer Dogma's questions in a bit; but I'm compelled to clear the air about one issue, first. Let it never be said that I don't hold both Chip and his dog with the utmost esteem. I've never had anything ill to say about either or. He's just wrong, _In my humble opinion (et al)_ about the importance of timely wean.


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## dogma13

You should edit your post to read:_In my humble opinion _he's wrong about the importance of timely wean.


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## berno von der seeweise

dogma13 said:


> It is a bit superstitious.Chances are slim of lightening striking twice like that. Sorry for your loss. How traumatic for the family that must have been.


Thanks. We got over it a long time ago. All for the best in the end, because that's what set us off down our breeds less traveled here.



dogma13 said:


> You honestly don't believe that breeding a dog of unknown origin/health history to a puppy of unknown health history will somehow lessen the odds of health and temperament issues? I don't understand the logic.


I'd rather not wade too deeply into the screens debate. Suffice it to say I paid my fair share of mr. westmister's screens bill, and it didn't do me any good. As you know, every litter is an experiment, and good screens may throw sick anytime. The way I see it, I bring them into this world, so it's my responsibility to take them back out. I've told every pup I've ever placed "if you have any trouble, health issue, temperament issue, or even if it's just a bad match, bring 'em back. No questions asked." No dog is perfect, and I sure don't want anyone "suffering" over a dog they get from me. To date, no returns, and many repeats. In terms of trying to match the right puppy to the right home, I simply cannot strongly enough advocate the VPAT.



dogma13 said:


> What work do your dogs do? Patrol?Herd?


rather than risk _romanticization_ or making it all sound more _technically specialized_ than it actually is, the proverbial "all arounder" is my ultimate ideal; and as far as I know that's precisely what gsd is supposed to bring.









sire


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## dogma13

So a Farm Dog like Ol Yeller that can do everything plus personal protection. Nothing wrong with that goal. But way you're going about it _In my humble opinion _seems haphazard.
Do you have any pics of your dogs from past days? Igor is looking good. Fuzzy Wuzzy still looks like a terrier to me.


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## berno von der seeweise




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## Damicodric

Berno continues to split the balls on the moth at the fifty yard line ... talking microbiology to most folks planting tomatoes .... throwing chum to members AND moderators here for whom I was beginning to develop some respect.

Somewhat ... well, largely disappointed.

There’s no education in this thread; there’s only pounds of arrogance.

Recall. This forum is for the beginner, novice and somewhat for the advanced.

I’ll check in from time to time. If this thread commands this much space, I’ve fallen into the wrong lot.

Best to all in ‘21’


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## berno von der seeweise

von bernodoodle's vlcica, 44 days old _(note to self 12.30.2020, full moon_)


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## berno von der seeweise

ok so I'm bumping a few fotos from page nineteen now. These were taken at 34 days old. Just 10 days prior to the snowy "vertical ascent" post. Look how far we've come in just 10 days. This is the power of imprinting. Nothing "artificial" about it. Either a pup wants to, or it don't.









































pile a few pallets in front of your whelping box on day 34 and 10 days later 

















SUPERMUTT !!!


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Either a pup wants to, or it don't.


There is a difference between want and a lack of options.


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## berno von der seeweise

nonsense. Look at the condition on that thing. Never been hungry a moment in it's life. Had I weaned proper, like Tikkie and leerburg, she'd be even more _supery-er._

prolly the key idea to take away from this is, take it slow, err on the side of caution. Because if you push a good one too hard, it might quit. We're imprinting climb and* win *here. If we imprint climb and loose at this age, or climb and fall, she may never want to climb again.

also think of this in terms of scale. Little pup, big pallet. If rather than imprinting now, you wait until spring to begin attempting to train this, you'll need a 20 foot wall. They learn SO FAST days 30-49, and the equipment is _so easy_ for a breeder to manage.

Breeders, if you put your name on pup that wants to, and then give it to a good trainer, it'll make your phone ring for many years to come.


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## Chip Blasiole

Did you breed your dog to a groundhog?


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm confident she'll exceed the minimum standard. 45 days old.


















It'll be interesting to see what she turns into, if I hang onto her; but this thread was never intended to be an exercise in "self promotion." In any event, after all this, I sure wouldn't want to be the one to have to crate train that thing 









this thing is ADORABLE! I should set up a paypal account and put her on the twitter #savefluffy


but in all seriousness they seem to be struggling trying to catch my little leather lure? Which is odd because I've been using the same stuff for 20 yrs without issue? So I'm going to try starting them on a larger, I guess "plushier" target?


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## Rionel

Completely outside the discussion, but that is one cute pup. Just sayin'


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## berno von der seeweise

latest development here is, it's easier to catch each other than it is to catch my little lure. IMO by now they should be working in tandem to catch it, like one on one side, one on the other; but instead it only makes them attack each other. I've tried using 2 reizangels but it's no good. As soon as one catches a lure, the other goes after it and they're rolling around in the snow like a snarling little furry tornado. Never seen anything like it here? All I can think to do is go to town and pick up some little stuffed animal toy, just big enough for both to engage?


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## Chip Blasiole

Making it easier is counterproductive.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm confounded re; what else to do at this point? I'd expected they'd inherit a little more snap and early mature from their dam. Looking back now, I really wasn't optimistic about the sire until like 90 days old, but he wasn't born here so I didn't rear him "the berno way." I really expected these muttpups would be right about here, right about now. Their dam sure was. 










I think I'd rather _make it easier_ for the sake of starting them now, rather than waiting to start them later. The agility is there and they do react to the lures, they just seem a little less "fang - eye" coordinated than what I'm accustomed to? It's almost like they get frustrated and take it out on each other. It's playful enough and they certainly aren't hurting each other, but it's definitely counterproductive.


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## Chip Blasiole

Also, work them individually not as a group. Not all pups/lines come flying out of the chute.


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## berno von der seeweise

good advice, Chip. Thank you. I'll try taking them one at a time to the trampoline.









this is the sire and I'm trying to remember how old he was @ the time









is it possible he might have been 12 weeks? does that look right for appx 12 weeks?









which would have put him appx 13 weeks here? I believe that's about right.









I remember it took him forever to finally break that bamboo...









I tied leather on a bigger stick and he tore hole in it @ 95 days old...









then I put a new toy in his easter basket @ 98 days old


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## berno von der seeweise

still working with the little lure here because I've done it this way so long, it's the only way to accurately eval









the ch in "patches" sounded a little too close to "vlcica" and created some confusion, so he's "mookie" again



























usually right about here it devolves in a tug of war for a few seconds, which I like


















so far I'm underwhelmed with the bites, but we'll give them another week (new moon)









by now they've figured out first we're going to bite, then we're going to climb, and breakfast is served on the roof.

I think they might be 49 days old today? I'll have to check my email to see? So they both swim and they both climb and they both hunt and they both bite (sorta). Mookie's nose is a little better, and vlcica is a little more agile. And they're dimorphic, which is always good. They aren't near as snappy as I'd hoped, but they are definitely getting in each other's way with that. And frankly at this point if we aren't training them right, we're training them wrong.

So far all this experiment has proven is 1.) nearly any puppy can do this stuff, and more importantly 2.) if we fail to whelp them in a pen and wean them on time, our results will be far more variable

I'll cobble together some sort of better lure and report back


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## berno von der seeweise

this muttpup stuff ain't all just glitz and glamour on the instagram I can't* VPAT *these things myself because they know me too well. I ordered them a stuffed monkey toy from amazon but it ain't here yet, and they're 51 days old today, last lunar quarter, so I have to do something with them anyhow. The most important thing I'm going to say about any of this, remember this now*, DO NOT *hand lure pups this young. It's too rough. Always use a very light, very flexible reizangel at this age. It's too easy to make a mistake by hand. Use a little reizangel and allow the cadet to exert it's own pressure. 










introducing von bernodoodle’s world famous patented “shamyote” preydriveometer puppy lure. It’s really more of a taste test than anything. We can’t train this. Either a 51 day old pup just instinctively likes the taste of coyote, or it don’t.









first grip!










he likes it! hey, mookie!!


















see that glove right there? big bad no no! DO NOT do that. I've lured a lot of litters and know exactly what I'm doing, and I'm telling you one wrong move is a surefire way to imprint _lose_ rather than win. I say again,* always *use a very light, very flexible reizangel at this age, and let the pup supply all the pressure.










I've seen far better bites and far higher prey drives, but we'll tie yote to reizangel and see if we can't bring them along on that until mookie's new monkey friend shows up here.


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## berno von der seeweise

ok, 54 days old today, so @ near 8 weeks it's kind of cheating BUT they've made quite a bit of progress over the past 3 days, and the monkey arrived today.









not bad... little slow to mature, but had I weaned appx 30 days like a real breeder they might not have been?









me likey









HA!









von bernodoodle's little vlcica!! 









but the real fun [email protected] berno's great northwoods redoubt when the sun goes down, and the coyote comes out



















so I guess that pretty well wraps it up? We'll see what a few dashes inbreeding bring here, but that's a future thread. I say again, as I've said all along, this was never supposed to be about me and my mutts. It was supposed to be about top tier trainers with top tier genetics taking a top tier leap outcrossing to whatever top tier folk are into? 'cause it doesn't really matter all that much, see? outcross is only the first ingredient in the improved breeding recipe.

it's been fun, folks. Cue the *streisand*, roll the credits 







































































































































































I'll raise and train them in tandem and someday soon we'll get there...










I'm seriously thinking about making the leap from jute to *synthetic* here?










epilogue:

I find myself quite unsatisfied with this thread's end. I don't "expect" anything from a 4-7 week old pup. It's entirely up to them. It's not a matter of "climb or starve." It's purely a question of "who want's to climb?" It's never a matter of "hunt or swim or bite or starve." It's purely a question of "who wants to hunt? who wants to swim? who wants to bite?" As a breeder I keep back the one that _just naturally wants to do it all_, grow it out, and inbreed/linebreed it. In doing so, I get progressive consistency. 

This is exactly how it was done with all the other ddr breeds. I assume ddr gsd too, but somewhere along the way the knowledge was lost, apparently?

Anyway, I _BARELY_ even lifted a finger with those pups. Just a couple mutts born in a box outback. Target practice, few pallets, big bucket of water, hid some treats in the woodpile, couple of chew toys. I think that's really about it?

Now just imagine what COULD be done. From 4 - 7 weeks pups are so small, and learn SO fast. One may easily take it "next level" in a very small space. "Beyond beyond." Beyond anything anyone's ever seen. Certainly beyond anything online. Arguably weaned in a corner of a basement or a garage or an alley somewhere. Selectively breeding for concrete and steel rather than coyote.

Mating and linebreeding individuals that _just naturally want to_ results in *rapid* mutation. Consistency doubles then triples and pretty soon you have a really righteous line. Not me. YOU. And that was the whole point. I'm just a hayseed out here. I'm not breeding for lackland or psa, but you "top tier" people sure could, and in my opinion should. It's not rocket science.


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## tim_s_adams

Pretty good lookin mutt pups...

Finally, an answer to your initial question


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