# Best way to raise pup with Schutzhund in mind?



## Shrap

Hiya, sorry if this would be better in the puppy forum, but I thought more people with the relevant experience would be on here!

I'm hopefully (depending on if the bitch is in whelp), getting my puppy in June. He will be male and from German show lines, but all dogs in pedigree have schutzhund qualifications and don't have a "soft" temperment like some the oversized "old fashioned" ones. Great with people but have the protective instinct and the brains to work out when there is a threat and when there isn't! So there shouldn't be any problems from the genetic point of view.

You hear so many things about raising puppies etc. and I'm just wondering what would be the best way to bring up my boy. Some say "no tug games" - but then aren't you suppoed to do that for schutzhund? Are you supposed to bring out the prey drive? But at the same time we have 3 cats in my house. Will it be alright so long as he knows the cats are off limits to him?
This will be my first time actually raising a GSD pup myself so I will have loads of questions, but I do want him to be really good at protection work etc. The most important thing of course is him having fun though 

I don't want to suppress natural instincts, but I don't want a problem dog!

Positive reinforcement - clicker training? Or pack leader? Why can't it just be simple 

So yeah, if anyone could give me tips on things to do or avoid whilst raising my pup, so that i don't suppress anything we want for schutzhund - that would be much appreciated!

Thanks! x


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## JLOCKHART29

I think all will agree join/visit Schutzhund clubs now. Watch other dogs work. Talk to people and ask questions. If you show you're serious about training most people love to talk about what they believe. Socialize, socialize! Take pup everywhere after shots. Auron's best friend is our old Tom. You might get past him to hurt me but I wouldn't want to mess with that cat!! LOL Sometimes he will get driven up and I have to step in and calm things down a bit. 
Michael Ellis dvds for the tug. I used tugs with Auron starting about 13 weeks and taught the aus as well using non compulsion methods. With his pedigree it was suggested that be taught early. Glad I did as the last two Saturday's basically all we have been doing in protection is having him aus the bite pillow and just sit without re engaging it till told to. Lot harder than it sounds with this dog which brings me back to joining a club. Different dogs need different training. Auron's drive needs to be contained and channeled. Your pup may need to be ramped up. Club will help decide. Good luck.


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## BlackthornGSD

Play with him lots. Play ball, play tug. Let him win when he tries hard. Roughhouse and rough and tumble play so he is comfortable with that type of play.

Socialize lots--to people and places and other dogs. Teach him to be comfortable traveling and in his crate. It's OK to let him play and socialize with other pups--but don't let him get repeatedly beat on---you want him to build confidence, not cut him down. Teach him that you're on his side--and don't let him be overfaced by anything. 

Do lots of "imprinting" training--motivational. Pick up the Michael Ellis DVDs.


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## Shrap

Am I really supposed to let him win? Won't that cause problems when he gets big and a **** of a lot stronger than me??

I will head down to the nearest club when they train maybe in a few weekends time. Speak to them about it.

Thanks


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## BlackthornGSD

Shrap said:


> Am I really supposed to let him win? Won't that cause problems when he gets big and a **** of a lot stronger than me??
> 
> I will head down to the nearest club when they train maybe in a few weekends time. Speak to them about it.
> 
> Thanks


You can let him win but still remain in control. You determine when the game starts and stops, but he wins when you play tug. 

I don't know the details, but I remember hearing about a study that was done on whether letting a dog win tug caused behavior problems. The study concluded that if a dog wins tug, it doesn't cause any additional issues--but it ends up liking to play tug; but if the dog never wins, the dog ends up not liking to play tug.

Also, this is a great demonstration....


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## GSDElsa

If you're going to do SchH with the pup and are getting it soon, I would highly recommend going out to a SchH club and starting to learn and finding where you jive!


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## onyx'girl

I agree, get with a club asap and look at the dogs/handlers while they are training. Even if you don't have a dog, observing is such a great learning experience. I went to club for a long time before I had a dog to train.
I would build up your pups confidence in all areas. Expose him/her safely to everything and anything without overwhelming him. 
Corrections should be minimal(redirect the behaviors you don't want),house manners taught, shaped~ but the pup should be able to be an independant thinker without tons of obedience put on him early on. Clicker training is fine, I recommend it for a young pup.
Watch all those free Michael Ellis clips, they are worth the time spent! Buy the ones that you want do delve deeper into;
Leerburg Streaming Video


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## FG167

BlackthornGSD said:


> YouTube - Building Drive by 'being' a Bad Dog Trainer


Fantastic video!!! It made Madix bark  I really enjoyed it!


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## szariksdad

I think not only socialize and join club. However be careful getting some of the puppy training videosor books unless they are geared towards sport or working dogs since most of them address pet owners and encourage drive squashing not building like you need.

Also you just want to be a fair firm consistent leader and the dog will fall in and a puppy that has the drive for Sch can be a lot of fun but a lot of work at the same time.


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## Shrap

I really enjoyed that video! Short, sweet and to the point. Very funny too haha. I've seen those struggling owners so many times. I'm not too fond of the whole "you can't control your dog so don't do any of these things".

So as long as I initiate and end the games and don't get frustrated or anrgy or anything it will be fine?

I have my socialisation plan almost covered. Going to write a check list and time scale for it soon. What's the best way to get him used to loud noises like gunshots and thunder & lightening etc?

I'll be taking him out lots of places once he's had a couple of days to settle in so he can get a nice early start. Carrying him of course. And will try to get some doggy play dates in with vacc'd dogs too.

Unfortunately all my friends' dogs are ill mannered little ......


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## JKlatsky

I think most of SchH puppy rearing is managment of the environment and positive training. You want your pup to grow up to think he is invincible. He listens to you not because he "has to" or because you are his "leader"...but because you are fun and it works for him. The have to's come later. I let my pup win every time we play tug. He can carry it around for as long as he wants. But when he outs it on his own I pick up the toy and put it away and it doesn't come out again until I want to play again. I never have any problem taking things away because I'm never unfair. If I want a toy that he doesn't want to give me then I just trade him for a piece of food and then pick up the toy and put it away. My dogs always readily give me things because it means good things for them- either food or a chance to play again. Setting up situations where you don't have to give corrections is the best way to proceed. Bad habits don't get formed if they don't have the opportunity to occur in the first place.

You also have to keep your end goals in mind. You want a dog that is comfortable using it's mouth on people...this means you cannot correct them for play biting. Rather you have to show them something appropriate to bite instead. Much of pet manners trainers can be counterproductive to some of the behaviors needed for SchH. Example= Jumping on people. You want your pup to be perfectly comfortable making body contact with people. Many people will yell or correct a dog and then the dog starts to learn physicality with people = bad. Rather starting to teach "Sit" and holding sit = good to deal with jumping pups is a better way to go. Obviously Way 2 takes longer to solve the problem than Way 1, but do you see the difference in the approach?? 

As far as gunshots and loud noises go...it's pretty much genetic in my experience. If your pup startles at loud noises then you will have to go through alot of desensitization exercises- and truthfully these pups are not really good candidates for SchH IMO. But pups that don't startle won't suddenly start startling unless there has been some kind of problem created. If you start firing a gun/setting off fireworks all the time around your pup you're more likely to create a problem than head one off.


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## FG167

As far as desensitizing to loud noises and such. Make it really fun. If you're going to start with a gun, be far away so it's not too startling and either play while it's happening or treat or click/treat (depending on your training method). Then gradually move closer doing the same stuff. As far as Thunder/Lightening - I've never had a dog be afraid but it might be b/c I LOVE a good thunderstorm so I'd get all excited and hunker down with blanket, book, popcorn. I guess I made it enjoyable for them that way (I was relaxed and happy and they get popcorn too!)


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## Shrap

Thanks for all the great advice guys!

Just one thing that bothers me though.... What about if the dog gets too excited and doesn't listen to me, because he doesn't have to and doesn't want to... Whatever he's doing is more rewarding?
That's the one flaw with all this positive reinforcement mallarky. Dog does something dangerous and won't listen because I don't have a treat or he doesn't want the praise. He's having too much fun.

What then? Or am I missing something?


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## onyx'girl

You need to make yourself more exciting than anything else. What would he be doing that is more fun than engaging with you...you control the toys, the outings, playtime so he does look to you for fun. 
My dog just turned two, and he is allowed to play with my other dogs and has free run of the house. 
When it comes to training time, he has certain toys that are for training only and his focus is on me. Sometimes he is flat when we train so I have to make myself more exciting.
As you train while the pup is young, you are setting up an obedient foundation(recalls are important) and the dog will fall back on that foundation as he grows to maturity.

If you give your pup lots of freedom, he may not see you as the reason for his "happiness" so balancing out play/freedom, crate time, etc is important but not difficult


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## Shrap

He could be running away in general, or will he only find that fun if i make it fun when he's growing up by chasing him and getting annoyed?

Hmmm I dunno. I guess I'll find out!


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## onyx'girl

If you chase a dog, they will run away....run in the opposite direction and the dog will follow you. Or lay down and play injured most dogs love to maul you when you're on the ground! Keep a long line on the pup if you fear him running off.
I trained my puppy without a collar or leash in the beginning and he never has bolted. Though I don't have to tie out my dogs either, they have a huge fenced in area.
I think if a dog is always tethered, when they do get free the first instinct is to take off and run, because they never get that chance to really run around.


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## Castlemaid

And do you think he will be more likely to come to you if you act angry and annoyed?

This is where management comes into play, and setting a foundation of making YOU the most exiting thing in the world so that other things do not hold his interest as well. 

If everytime he starts to move away from you, you call him back all happy and exited and ready to engage in play, you are setting a foundation for him to come to you willingly and single-mindedly. If he is in a situation where he could be in danger or do something that will cause him harm, then you have not been doing your job of keeping him safe and out of harm's way. 

But you don't have to believe all the people here that have successfully raised Schutzhund dogs that are safe and reliable off leash even among strong distractors using the positive methods explained here. 
Foundation work is developing a mind-set in the dog so that he wants to always be engaged with you, and that won't happen if in your mind the techniques used to develop this is mallarky. As others have said, raising a working dog is a bit different than raising a pet, and allowing them more freedom is important, and in doing so, you need to manage their environment in a way that more freedom does not translate into more risks. 

Find a club, talk to people, it will come all together and the reason for doing things a certain way will start to make sense.


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## BlackthornGSD

JKlatsky said:


> You also have to keep your end goals in mind. You want a dog that is comfortable using it's mouth on people...this means you cannot correct them for play biting. Rather you have to show them something appropriate to bite instead. .



Just thought I'd add, it's perfectly possible to teach bite "inhibition" to puppies destined for schutzhund. By inhibition, I mean that the dog understands how to moderate the pressure of his teeth when biting or mouthing--not that the puppy doesn't mouth at all. 

Here's some good info on bite inhibition: Bite Inhibition Article

Obviously, the end goal in raising a schutzhund puppy isn't to eliminate the willingness to bite--so you may want or need to modify how you apply some of the suggestions focused on pet puppies.


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## W.Oliver

Shrap said:


> .....Whatever he's doing is more rewarding?
> That's the one flaw with all this positive reinforcement mallarky. Dog does something dangerous and won't listen because I don't have a treat or he doesn't want the praise. He's having too much fun....What then? Or am I missing something?


....and this seemed to be going so well. "positive reinforcement mallarky"....15 yard penalty for that!

If your pup is in a dangerous situation, then what you are missing is your job as a trainer/handler to keep your pup safe. Later in training you will have a solid "platz" and a bullet proof recall.

To John Q. Public, a SchH pup appears to be unruly and untrained...they mouth and jump, seem to have no manners....truth is, you're just raising them differently than a companion and those "manners" come later after confidence and independence are nurtured further than what genetics provide as a foundation.


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## szariksdad

The point is to make sure that he knows that you will always be more interesting then what he might stumble on so occasionally you might have to look and act like a fool when he is young so that as he ages he will want to be with the fun one. Then it will fall into place.


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## Shrap

Castlemaid said:


> And do you think he will be more likely to come to you if you act angry and annoyed?
> 
> This is where management comes into play, and setting a foundation of making YOU the most exiting thing in the world so that other things do not hold his interest as well.
> 
> If everytime he starts to move away from you, you call him back all happy and exited and ready to engage in play, you are setting a foundation for him to come to you willingly and single-mindedly. If he is in a situation where he could be in danger or do something that will cause him harm, then you have not been doing your job of keeping him safe and out of harm's way.
> 
> But you don't have to believe all the people here that have successfully raised Schutzhund dogs that are safe and reliable off leash even among strong distractors using the positive methods explained here.
> Foundation work is developing a mind-set in the dog so that he wants to always be engaged with you, and that won't happen if in your mind the techniques used to develop this is mallarky. As others have said, raising a working dog is a bit different than raising a pet, and allowing them more freedom is important, and in doing so, you need to manage their environment in a way that more freedom does not translate into more risks.
> 
> Find a club, talk to people, it will come all together and the reason for doing things a certain way will start to make sense.


Maybe I mean mallarky in a different way to you? I wasn't saying I don't believe it works, I'm just saying I don't know how to make myself more exciting than everything else in the big wide world. Quite often I've witnessed dogs with apparently perfect recall get distracted by something new which they "never" would get distracted by... But they did, and didn't want to come back.

I've heard about running in the opposite direction and screaming as if something's wrong with you and pretending to faint etc. Can't wait for the weird looks...

I wasn't planning on getting angry or annoyed, I'm a calm person. I was merely talking about other dog owners who get frustrated and shout at their dogs when they don't listen, wondering if that's what made running away into a game for their dogs. Just thinking that because I'm not like that it might not happen....

If a dog is offlead you can never be 100% they won't run off after something, you can't expose them to everything to make sure they would stay with you in that situation. I'm not expecting my dog to run off everytime I let him off, I'm just worried about losing my puppy. Every possible scenario that could go wrong is going through my head and I'm trying to find ways around it. Try to have a little patience with me?

There's a club 2 hours away from me so will go down and watch them soon. The trainer is supposed to be good. I have Crufts this weekend though and then I'm away to a farm for lambing season for a month, so will have to be after that.

So yeah... Sorry I'm not well versed in dog training methods. That's why I'm here. Trying to figure out the best way to raise my puppy from experienced people.

Also, I googled Michael Ellis but couldn't find anything?

I guess I'll end up finding the right balance once I have him. I just don't want to completely **** him up.


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## onyx'girl

> Also, I googled Michael Ellis but couldn't find anything?


I linked his video clips on page one of this thread, here it is again, clik on this and you'll get all of them:
Leerburg Streaming Video


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## JKlatsky

Puppies are like toddlers. You can't expect them to behave all the time. I guess that's what we mean by management...You don't put them into situations where you would need to control them without being ABLE to control them- think leash and collar or fenced in area. And in those controlled environments you build habits that are like reflexes. And then later on in training you PROOF the behavior and add consequences to disobedience. 

For example on Come- I played a game with my puppy when he was 9 weeks old where I would sit on the floor and toss food away from me...he would chase and go eat it...them I would say Come! in a happy voice and when he came back I would give him another piece of food. I also played a similar game where he would chase me! I would throw a piece of food and while he was going to get it I would run about 10 yards away and turn around and say Come! and toss another piece of food between my legs...and we'd play this stupid game a couple times a day (being sure to stop before he was bored or when he started to slow down) and what it did was create a conditioned response to the word come- to quickly turn around and look for Mom and a treat. 

Now that puppy is older- over a year. And consequences are starting to be added in- Collar pops, E-collar stims, or even quick butt pinches if he turns away...all still designed to be quickly followed with a reward when he obeys...but now there is a negative associated to NOT coming. And this is how we will proof the behavior introducing more and more distractions...but the corrections at this point will not negatively impact the dog's attitude as long as I am fair because there was 10 months of positive foundation and continued presence of reward.


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## Holmeshx2

This is all so true (except for the mallarky part) and also hard to remember for those new to it. I don't have a SchH club here I can train with well theres one but I wont let them near my pup so I'm all alone in it and trying to learn the foundations for my girl so she can get into it at a later time. Its hard having everyone telling you to curb the jumping and watching other people looking at you like your a horrible pet owner because your pup is jumping on people but the truth is your not raising a pet your raising a working dog so they might not have manners at this age but its good to remember it'll come.

Jinx is getting much better at it she jumps on them and I tell her off or sit or if they turn their back she'll instanty get off and most people have been decent about understanding however I have always been a major corrections person so has my husband and I've done all positive this time and am seeing a HUGE difference in her.

Simple thing to not forget is to do truly interactive play I tug with her and do all sorts of "training" games but it's been probably a good week since I've sat on the floor and played with her. I've noticed she hasn't been so interested in me outside however the moment I sit down she is all over me and happier then I have ever seen her so definitely something to keep in mind to get your dog to run to you if running away isn't working (she learned that game)


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## onyx'girl

I understand not having a good club nearby...good helpers/trainers are hard to come by, we need to support them totally when we have a good one working with us!

If you want to get a good foundation on your own, there are few great books to read;
Welcome to Dogwise.com
Schutzhund obedience: Training in drive with Gottfried Dildei

Welcome to Dogwise.com training the behavior by gary patterson
Welcome to Dogwise.com sheila booths book~ purely positive training
I started reading them before my pup came home, and then again for support!


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## Shrap

Thanks JK!!! That's all I was wondering about!! Really well put. I understand now lol!

And thanks Onyx girl I'm a dope


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