# Help! Fear Aggressive Pup!



## afishbone04 (Apr 1, 2012)

We have a 7 month old who is very aggressive towards strangers. We have taken her to socialization classes when she was 4 months. However, these didn't seem to work. We now are in classes with a private trainer who recommends getting a shock collar. I don't know where to go from here, she is so loving to us and people she is familiar too. But, if a new person were to come in she barks and lunges. The trainer tells us to have here place when someone comes in and not let her bark by correcting her with the prong collar. This seems to work but, I am so confused! Please help with any suggestions!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi

It sounds like your puppy missed out on the vital socialisation she needed when she was younger. Puppies need to meet loads of people and experience different things from when they're about 6 - 8 weeks. 

I personally would not consider using a shock collar on her. Don't get me wrong, it may stop her lunging at people, because she'll be scared to. But, importantly, it won't change the way she feels about people. She will still be scared of people, but she'll also be afraid to let you know.

You need to let her know that she needn't be afraid of strangers, any more than she is afraid of you, and people she already knows. 

You can do this by slowly building her confidence around people, both indoors and out.

Sorry for all the questions, but .... 

Can you explain exactly how she behaves when you have a guest she's unfamiliar with? 

Is she only nervous at home or when outside as well ?

Do you have a crate and is she happy in it ?

Sue


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If, IF you use an e-collar please look at Lou Castles website for more information.
I have a fear aggressive female(she is now 5) and her behavior started about the same age as your pup. It has nothing to do with socialization but the genetics.
I would do the exercises from the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, Welcome to Dogwise.com build confidence and don't take your pup places where she'll be set up to fail by overwhelming stimulation. 
Using a prong to correct a fear aggressive(FA) dog will sometimes ramp them up and they see the correction as_ coming _from what they are reacting to, which backfires.
You also don't want to give praise when pup is showing insecurity/or FA. That will just reaffirm the behavior. Ignore, re-direct the reactive behavior~ a good way to begin so pup will see that what they are reacting to is no big deal. (LAT game) Set pup up to succeed by not placing her in situations that are too much for her.

I would do baby step outings, stay on the fray of the busy area's and bring high value treats or a toy to redirect the behavior you don't want. When pup is doing what is good, praise/throw a party! 

Onyx my FA dog is much better now that she's mature, but I still have to manage her(vet/muzzle) and keep her contained safely in a crate when we have gatherings, or children come over. 
My teenage kids have friends coming and going and I tell them to act like they own the house, ignore the dogs and just carry on. It works.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Sorry I forgot to say I would look around for another trainer - one who specialises in this type of problem - and only uses positive training methods.

Perhaps someone on the site can recommend one in your area. 

If you start a new thread, I'm sure someone will point you in the right direction. 

Perhaps you can check out this site and also consider getting the book. 

Scaredy Dog! Fearful & Reactive Dogs, Author Ali Brown


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would Not use the shock collar, or the prong collar, these two things can just make her feel more afraid of people. i agree with using the more positive methods. i have a fear agressive dog and i have worked and worked on this issue. he is now 4 years old. he went to puppy classes, Obedience classes, agility, tracking, etc. was around people from day one. i took him to every parking lot, playground, any place with people, and still do to this day. he does better if new people just completely ignore him, no eye contact, no talk, touch etc. he eventually will go sniff them and is fine, but he will never be a happy go lucky golden with people, he prefers others not to touch him. we have a few close friends that can breifly touch him with no problem, but not strangers, and i would never put him in that position.

your dog is young and hopefully fear from lack of genetic balance isn't the case, and you can work hard on socializing and get to a better place. takes tons of time and dedication but can be done, or at least managed through good training, and good professional help.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> It has nothing to do with socialization but the genetics.


If the OP's dog wasn't socialised until she was 4 months - it is far more likely to be lack of socialisation. 

According to Ian dunbar, there is only a small window of opportunity for socialisation. It ends at about 12- 13 weeks.

Fearfulness | Dog Star Daily


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> If, IF you use an e-collar please look at Lou Castles website for more information.
> I have a fear aggressive female(she is now 5) and her behavior started about the same age as your pup. It has nothing to do with socialization but the genetics.
> I would do the exercises from the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, Welcome to Dogwise.com build confidence and don't take your pup places where she'll be set up to fail by overwhelming stimulation.
> Using a prong to correct a fear aggressive(FA) dog will sometimes ramp them up and they see the correction as_ coming _from what they are reacting to, which backfires.
> ...


Thank you for posting some learning and help sources. Our dog is almost two, she started this behavior about 10 months old even though she had a lot of socialization, almost as soon as we got her, about 8 weeks old. After our experience, I'd say it may be genetic too. We are having a brilliant day here in CA today, and just took her for a serious walk on the beach with lots of redirecting and rewarding. I'll have to check out the book and website to make sure we are doing things correctly. We saw a black GSD walking unleashed with a frisbee, very good dog, hope our Molly gets there some day.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jakes mom said:


> If the OP's dog wasn't socialised until she was 4 months - it is far more likely to be lack of socialisation.
> 
> According to Ian dunbar, there is only a small window of opportunity for socialisation. It ends at about 12- 13 weeks.
> 
> Fearfulness | Dog Star Daily


A dog of stable temperament will most often be fine with no socializing. 
I know a few that were kennel raised and sold at a year of age, settle just fine with no fear/or reactivity. Generally a dog that shows fear is genetically programmed that way.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Sorry, I just can't figure that onyx'girl. If she was genetically fearful, she would be frightened of everyone and wouldn't even like being touched. 
The owner said she is happy for them and people she's familar with to love her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Generally a dog that shows fear is genetically programmed that way.


Yes!

OP - there is NO overnight cure. Fear issues are quiet often managed, not cured. This may include a lifetime of blocking people from approaching without permission, maybe a muzzle in public, leashing or crating her while company is over. That is not to discourage you! We have a HA dog. It just takes a few minutes to crate her or leash her before we answer the door. 

Prong collars will often ramp up a reaction. I know it did with Jax. 

I did use an e-collar along with behavior modification for her dog fear aggression. I don't advise this unless you are working with a trainer. An e-collar has some ground work to teach the dog what the stim means before you can use it properly. If the trainer just slaps the e-collar on and gives him a correction for fear aggression without any ground work...run...run fast...run far. 

I would also ask the trainer what behavior modification method they will be using. LAT? BAT? There has to be something along with the e-collar.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> If the OP's dog wasn't socialised until she was 4 months - it is far more likely to be lack of socialisation.
> 
> According to Ian dunbar, there is only a small window of opportunity for socialisation. It ends at about 12- 13 weeks.
> 
> Fearfulness | Dog Star Daily



I got my dog at 12 weeks with no prior socialization and at 7 months she is doing very well and shows no signs of fear or nervousness. She loves dogs, cats, rabbits, big people, little people and shows no signs of fear w/motorcycles, construction sites, people jogging, riding bikes, cars, etc. The only problem I've had with her is potty training and I do believe that is because she was kept outside in the beginning of her life. She went through the puppy biting stage for about a week and that ended and she doesn't chew anything besides her toys. She had worms and an ear infection when I got her, so she wasn't out and about for a couple weeks, according to Ian Dunbar I missed the window, but she is fine.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think its true that its true that a dog is genetically programmed to be fearful, not that this is the case with the OP. time will tell with the right socialization and training.
i think a stable temperament and a balanced pup can skip the social and be fine. i have seen it many times. thats how some breeders will test the line, keep a few pups and purposely not socialize them to see if the genetics are strong and stable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> Sorry, I just can't figure that onyx'girl. If she was genetically fearful, she would be frightened of everyone and wouldn't even like being touched.
> The owner said she is happy for them and people she's familar with to love her.


I'm sorry but that is not correct. It's not uncommon for fear aggressive dogs to react to the unknown person or dog and be great with their pack or family. It's WEAK NERVES, which are genetic. 

Stable dogs with good nerves are stable dogs....period. They are able to recover from situations that weak nerved dog can not.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have reread the OP's post and it states that the dog took a socialization class at 4 months--Just 1? Or was it ongoing and now they are in private lessons because that didn't work?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jakes mom said:


> Sorry, I just can't figure that onyx'girl. If she was genetically fearful, she would be frightened of everyone and wouldn't even like being touched.
> The owner said *she is happy for them and people she's familar with to love her*.


Onyx is too. As a pup she showed confidence at home, she laid on her back while sleeping the first day home, and was never hesitant to do anything~ but get her out and about, and she was timid...submissively peed then started the reactivity with dogs and people. She was socialized some(classes & took her to family gatherings/church youth group), but not as much as I wanted because it was frigid freezing January/Feb. 
Unless you have a dog with issues, it is hard to understand, even having a dog with issues and reading why they are the way they are is difficult! 

Onyx shows dominance to my other dogs at home,yet has anxiety and will get very aggressive at the vet. 
Her breeder said she was the "dominant alpha female" of the litter and never stopped when the other pups tried to correct her or ignored her. She was the last pup to be placed because of this and the breeder wanted to be sure she went to a home that could deal with that type personality. 
You'd think this would be a confident outgoing pup, but the "alpha" is _not_ the one who is always stirring things up, the one who probably lacks or shows anxiety will. Just like a bully, why are they bullies? Because they lack confidence and want others to be vulnerable so they will look more 'powerful'.
Onyx was a surprise to the family, I never would have gone with this breeder if it were my choice.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think by 7 months old it should be pretty clear that if the dog is still fearful it could be genetics. sometimes with real fearful pups some early classes can work the oppositie and put to much stress on them being in a small room with alot of people and dogs. its been pounded into puppy owners heads to get them to classes ASAP early on, and for stable pups its great, but if your working with extreme fear issues you really need to very slowly expose them to things little by little. and there are breif fear periods that are normal for pups, like being afraid of a blowing trash can etc. but if its been ongoing since day one with people and other things, that is a genetic issue.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

debbiebrown said:


> i think by 7 months old it should be pretty clear that if the dog is still fearful it could be genetics. sometimes with real fearful pups some early classes can work the oppositie and put to much stress on them being in a small room with alot of people and dogs. its been pounded into puppy owners heads to get them to classes ASAP early on, and for stable pups its great, but if your working with extreme fear issues you really need to very slowly expose them to things little by little. and there are breif fear periods that are normal for pups, like being afraid of a blowing trash can etc. but if its been ongoing since day one with people and other things, that is a genetic issue.


I read on here about all of these dogs that have fear issues and it kinda scares me...do you think that my dog at its age(7 months) will stay the way she is--full of energy, fun loving, and just well rounded?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

debbiebrown said:


> i think by 7 months old it should be pretty clear that if the dog is still fearful it could be genetics. sometimes with real fearful pups some early classes can work the oppositie and put to much stress on them being in a small room with alot of people and dogs. its been pounded into puppy owners heads to get them to classes ASAP early on, and for stable pups its great, but if your working with extreme fear issues you really need to very slowly expose them to things little by little. and there are breif fear periods that are normal for pups, like being afraid of a blowing trash can etc. but if its been ongoing since day one with people and other things, that is a genetic issue.


:thumbup:


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## afishbone04 (Apr 1, 2012)

*Our pup*

We started puppy classes when she was 4 months and went for 6 weeks. At first, she wouldn't play with the other dogs and attacked them. So each time we would go she would be in another room and have a long leash, slowly she would be able to sniff the others and then get a treat for good behavior, this seemed to work with the dogs! However, she would ignore the people or bark at them. Now she is 7 months, crate trained! She lets us and a few other people she knows pet her and rub her belly! When a person comes over or even on walks she will immediately start barking and her hair stands up on her neck. We have tried to ignore her and tell the guest to ignore too. But, if the person comes close she barks and lunges but also backs up. When she does calm down she will usually sniff the person out and their have been times that she is fine after that. But, she usually won't let them pet her. Her father was flown in from Germany to breed, we are thinking it might have something to do with the genes?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have her pedigree? I'd like to see the lines/just curious. Are you in contact with the breeder?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

strange people should not approach her, you need to control those situations. it should be you who approaches them with her leashed and a whole lot of Obedience going on. they can't do two things at once. Obedience goes a LONG way in controlling fearful dogs along with positive socializing tecniques. i would find a trainer that uses more positive methods.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

do you know anyone with a super stable well trained dog?? At 7 months she should follow the example of the older dog, if you make daily walks with the friend and this calm stable dog, your dog might start relaxing. A friend had a couple fearful young dogs, older than this and we used to walk together, my very stable dog who reacts to nothing would help desensitize them.. they learned kids/bikes/skateboards/ducks/traffic etc was Ok to ignore and continue walking past..At times I would take their leads as the owner was fearful of the reaction and I wasn't and invariably there was NO reaction when I had the lead...so the owner got more confidence and things got lots better.. worth a try, and joint walking is great for all involved


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Unless you have a dog with issues, it is hard to understand, even having a dog with issues and reading why they are the way they are is difficult!


Amen. I'm getting a crash course in it right now.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

afishbone04 said:


> We have a 7 month old who is very aggressive towards strangers. We have taken her to socialization classes when she was 4 months. However, these didn't seem to work. We now are in classes with a private trainer who recommends getting a shock collar. I don't know where to go from here, she is so loving to us and people she is familiar too. But, if a new person were to come in she barks and lunges. The trainer tells us to have here place when someone comes in and not let her bark by correcting her with the prong collar. This seems to work but, I am so confused! Please help with any suggestions!


I join the others who have suggested locating another trainer. I would suggest going a step further and locate a behaviorist. One who is very experienced with GSD and that you are comfortable with.

Reconsider prongs and e-collars. I know with Woolf, who is fear aggressive da/sometimes ha, they only amp up his reactions. We use a martingale instead.

Like your dog, Woolf is the ultimate sweetheart with us and those we consider part of our family/pack. Others, he's very unpredictable of who he will react to. He has to be managed, expressions - facial and body - observed so that we take the steps needed BEFORE he reacts. Once he reaches the point of barking and lunging, like you said your pup does, the only action to take is get him out of the situation.

Watch your pup, tension around the mouth, how the body is being carried, his focus; redirect his attention as soon as you see those cues. You don't want to correct for the barking and growling, those are your warning, with corrections you may have a dog that gives no warning. Find the one thing that will get his attention every time. Woolf is ball crazy and has one orange ball that is his absolute favorite. The squeak will break his focus every time unless I made the mistake and missed the cue.

The behaviorist we go to focuses on the training being positive, the dog having fun, using redirection and only introduces corrections AFTER the dog knows and has shown he knows the command.

When we have new people come into the house, Woolf is ALWAYS on leash and in a down/stay. The person is instructed to completely ignore Woolf, not look at him, not speak or try to touch. Only after everyone is settled, only then do we have a controlled intro with Woolf doing the sniff thing first. If there is any indication at all the intro may not go good, we put Woolf away in his crate. I'm not going to take a chance he is going to get himself in trouble.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi fishbones 4

I agree with everything Twyla says. 

Or even better still you could to ask your vet to refer you to veterinary behaviourist. One of the girls on another forum I'm a member of had to do that - her dog was a nervous wreck - and needed medication as well as behaviour modification. I know she heavily relies on the 'look at me' command. 

You really need to be able read your dog. Look up everything you can about dogs body language. Remove her from any situations she's not comfortable with. 

Following advice on the other forum, I used this method on my own dog and found it very effective - provided your dog has never bitten or seriously gone to. But there is unlikely to be quick fix. It takes, time, patience and observation. That being said your dog doesn't sound too bad - and you've had pretty good results around other dogs. 

My dog had a problem with fear of people, following an unfortunate accident, and we built his confidence by doing the following: 

If possible place your dogs crate where she can see visitors come in, but where they do not need to approach her or even walk passed her in order to enter the lounge - up the corner maybe. 

When visitors arrive, open the door to the crate for her to go in. Do not force her, as that will make her anxious. Put treats in for her or a filled kong or a chew toy, and close the door. 

As you let your guests in, give them some treats for her, but tell them *not *to give them to her. Explain she is nervous and you're trying to build her confidence.

Tell your guests, in no uncertain terms, not to look at her or attempt to approach her. Tell them to behave as if there is no dog in the house at all. Get all your guests settled in and relaxed. Under no circumstances must they make eye contact with your dog, as this can come over as aggression to a dog. 

When and only if she looks relaxed open the door to the crate, but don't call her out - let her decide to come out on her own accord. Don't forget - insist your guests don't look at her - just ignore her completely. 

Unfortunately some people really don't want to listen - because "all dogs love them" . You need to insist they do as you ask, because you need to sort this for both you and your dog.

If she decides to come out of her crate, let her wander around in her own time. I would keep the door to the lounge open so she can escape the quests if she want to. The guests still need to ignore her. If she comes to you, which she probably will, give her a treat, keep calm, and tell her she's a good girl. 

You can ask the guests (one at a time) to casually toss a treat on the floor for her. Tell them to toss the treats well away from themselves - you don't want your dog tempted to go closer to the guests than she's ready to. They must still ignore her though - no eye contact. 

If she starts to eat the treats, you can slowly let the guests toss them closer to themselves. You should find that your dog starts to be more and more comfortable with the guests. Eventually they *may* be able to place a treat on their legs - and even let her take one from their hands. 

But you must take it very slowly. Let your dog go at her own pace.

She needs to discover for herself that guests are ok and they are not going to hurt her - far from it - they give her loads of goodies. 

If any of your guests want to get up, call your dog out of the room with you, or get her back in her crate. Only when you, your dog and your guests are extremely comfortable should you even consider them moving around. Don't be tempted to test your dog beyond her comfort zone. 

This is a good site for understanding dog's body language, but there are others.

Turid Rugaas - Calming Signals Community

Does that seem reasonable to you ?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Please join this group: shy-k9s : shy-k9s


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

good advice above, to add, if for some reason you do have people come visit or have a feeling someone isn;t going to listen to your instructions on how to beave around your dog, do not expose her to them. there are people who say things like "dogs like me, and proceed to do their own thing" those statements are red flags..........

you need to set up with only people you trust.......


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I tell you what worked a treat for us as well. 

We are very lucky in the fact that we have the patio door one end of the room, and the door to the hallway at the other end. If visitors were there we always kept the door to the hallway open - so our dog could get of the way if he wanted to. But once our dog ventured out of the crate we would also have the patio door open and throw the ball down the garden for him to fetch. He loved playing ball - so that also helped him associate his favouite game with visitors.

Sue 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Please join this group: shy-k9s : shy-k9s


What a good link. I've also had a quick look at the other sites in your signature - how lovely that people go to so much trouble for other pets.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

WE have a fear aggressive/submissive 2 year old male. It started the first day we brought him home at 8 weeks old,barking furiously and lunging at people. He's never bitten but he will charge and nose butt. Fast forward 2 years and he's much better but still very reactionary and emotional,can never be trusted. He is very gentle and very friendly when he calms down,which only takes seconds,but those seconds can be scary. He was socialized daily at the breeders from very early on and we continued it,can't be fixed only managed,but it is better,much better when bumping into people on walks. We were introduced to Dogtra by a trainer at about 5 months old. We put it on him every day and a little nick during an episode causes him to retreat towards me and lie down. No ill effects that we've noticed.


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## Super_HKS (Mar 6, 2012)

Is your dog aggressive as in growling/biting strangers or just barking? Our boy has barked since he was 3 months of age. He has never been aggressive towards a human being just barks to alert my wife or I. This first occurred when he was around 3 months of age. My wife and I were walking though some trails in our local dog park and a older man dressed in all black and a hoodie starting walking towards us. My dog started barking and stood his ground. He was not aggressive to the point of showing teeth or charging towards the person so we praised him for standing his ground and alerting us. He is now just about 9 months old and he is a great protection dog. I don't know what he would do if someone tried to break in and no one was home, but I pray that doesn't happen for that persons sake.

A great way to get her more socialized with people is to get her into a dog park/dog beach setting. It will give her more interaction with people and overtime she will hopefully become less aggressive. Honestly I do not know how to correct the at home issues other than having friends/guests come over and teach her that its not ok to growl/charge via reward/praise.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Super_HKS said:


> A great way to get her more socialized with people is to get her into a dog park/dog beach setting. It will give her more interaction with people and overtime she will hopefully become less aggressive. Honestly I do not know how to correct the at home issues other than having friends/guests come over and teach her that its not ok to growl/charge via reward/praise.


I'm sorry, but a dog park/beach is a bad idea for this pup. The OP stated that this pup has already had issues of DA that was worked through. In a park setting, that usually includes the one irresponsible pet owner that shows up, it would only take one incident to set this pup back. Instead of setting the pup up for success, it would be a setup for failure.


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## afishbone04 (Apr 1, 2012)

She does great around other dogs and she goes on long walks with another dog every Sunday. Thanks for all the advice and I think we just need to build her confidence and take this one day at a time. Also, the other day my Dad was over and she loves him, she barks when he first comes in but then knows it is him and starts wagging her tail. But, he got up and put his hands over his head and I think this might of scared her so, she began barking and went underneath the table! This has never happened before!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Some dogs really do not like their heads touched, as you've discovered.
She may let you do it, but discourage anyone else from doing it. Same with eye contact - best avoided. 

Your Dad or anyone else who she is reasonably ok with, could throw your dog a treat but then back off away from her. Let her know that she doesn't have to be in close contact. Or throw a treat behind your dog so she has to move away to get it. It will help to build her confidence.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I'm sorry but that is not correct. It's not uncommon for fear aggressive dogs to react to the unknown person or dog and be great with their pack or family. It's WEAK NERVES, which are genetic.
> 
> Stable dogs with good nerves are stable dogs....period. They are able to recover from situations that weak nerved dog can not.


Bingo! My fear reactive dog is playful with me, overall good with my older stable dog, and I can even correct her in the household for obnoxious things like chewing on the couch cushions, etc. This is her safety zone. Everything changes if someone enters the house, she sees an object that she is unsure of, or she's around people or other animals that are not part of that home safety zone.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

_*jakes mom*_ - I've been following this post as we have a dog with similar issues. Your advice on how to get guests in your home was very helpful. We have not crate trained our dog as there have never been destructive issues. But if we want more guests in the house, your method seems the safest. 

I read a training book that recommended the guest throw treats at the dog, without the crating. Without the crate, throwing treats did nothing!! Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough lesson.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

afishbone04 said:


> She does great around other dogs and she goes on long walks with another dog every Sunday. Thanks for all the advice and I think we just need to build her confidence and take this one day at a time. Also, the other day my Dad was over and she loves him, she barks when he first comes in but then knows it is him and starts wagging her tail. But, he got up and put his hands over his head and I think this might of scared her so, she began barking and went underneath the table! This has never happened before!


Another thing to be aware of is losing your patience or temper with others when he is around. I can't yell at my kids without Fritz running for his bed and he won't be the same for days. It's been very difficult but it's hit me right in my comfort zone and has resulted in me growing as a dog owner and a person. Patience and understanding,something I was very short on.
The good side is he loves people and is very very gentle and playful after he relaxes. He's very obedient (wonder if most fearful dogs are),very intelligent and a super athlete.


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## matthewm11 (Oct 18, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I got my dog at 12 weeks with no prior socialization and at 7 months she is doing very well and shows no signs of fear or nervousness. She loves dogs, cats, rabbits, big people, little people and shows no signs of fear w/motorcycles, construction sites, people jogging, riding bikes, cars, etc. The only problem I've had with her is potty training and I do believe that is because she was kept outside in the beginning of her life. She went through the puppy biting stage for about a week and that ended and she doesn't chew anything besides her toys. She had worms and an ear infection when I got her, so she wasn't out and about for a couple weeks, according to Ian Dunbar I missed the window, but she is fine.


I adopted my dog at 7 months old and she had lived her whole life up until that point living outside with very little socialization. Despite this when I first met her she happily approached me and didn't seem at all fearfull if me. When I first took her home everything was new to her, she didn't even know how to use stairs and was a little unsure of everything, but would quickly learn. She was very shy but not to the point where she overwhelmed around strangers. Six months later and she is basically the same as your dog in that she shows no fear of people, animals, loud noises etc. and approaches the unknown with 
curiousity rather than fear. Just the other day the happily greeted maintnence guys at a park using loud chainsaws and moving big branches and logs. In her case I have to assume its genetics, not socislization.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lrodptl said:


> Another thing to be aware of is losing your patience or temper with others when he is around. I can't yell at my kids without Fritz running for his bed and he won't be the same for days. It's been very difficult but it's hit me right in my comfort zone and has resulted in me growing as a dog owner and a person. Patience and understanding,something I was very short on.
> .


Ditto this! Yelling, horse whips and fly swatters...guaranteed to send Jax running for cover. And no desensitization worked for her. I just try to avoid using them when she's around...not very successfully in the summer with flies!


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Getting back to what _*onyx'girl *_posted about fear aggression being genetic...I watched a dog documentary last night that was originally on Nova 2010. Part of the show featured this fox study in Siberia that has been going on since the 1950's. They took wild foxes and discovered that 1% were not that aggressive, eventually breeding those 1% together and after 3 generations had fairly tame foxes, some physical features also changed. It was supposed to mimic how thousands of years ago, wild wolves became man's best friend. So if there are non-aggressive genes, it would be possible to have aggression genes.

I suppose it's hard to know in advance (when it's 8 weeks old) if your dog's aggressive side will be expressed. We met my dog's sister when she was about 1 year old, a very well adjusted dog, lives in SF, her brother is a sweet marshmallow, but a couple of her half brothers, cousins we've met have aggression issues.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Gretchen said:


> _*jakes mom*_ - I've been following this post as we have a dog with similar issues. Your advice on how to get guests in your home was very helpful. We have not crate trained our dog as there have never been destructive issues. But if we want more guests in the house, your method seems the safest.
> 
> I read a training book that recommended the guest throw treats at the dog, without the crating. Without the crate, throwing treats did nothing!! Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough lesson.


Awww Gretchen. Thank you very much. 



> Getting back to what _*onyx'girl *_posted about fear aggression being genetic...I watched a dog documentary last night that was originally on Nova 2010. Part of the show featured this fox study in Siberia that has been going on since the 1950's. They took wild foxes and discovered that 1% were not that aggressive, eventually breeding those 1% together and after 3 generations had fairly tame foxes, some physical features also changed. It was supposed to mimic how thousands of years ago, wild wolves became man's best friend. So if there are non-aggressive genes, it would be possible to have aggression genes.
> 
> I suppose it's hard to know in advance (when it's 8 weeks old) if your dog's aggressive side will be expressed. We met my dog's sister when she was about 1 year old, a very well adjusted dog, lives in SF, her brother is a sweet marshmallow, but a couple of her half brothers, cousins we've met have aggression issues.


You know it's fascinating - the genetics issue. I guess just like people, dogs can have personality disorders. Proving it - that's a whole different matter. It's difficult enough with humans, nevermind dogs. 

We were watching a programme a couple of weeks ago about psychopaths. It suggested - well more than suggested - it showed some evidence, that they are born that way - but their upbringing can make a world of difference in the way it actually manifests itself in adulthood. Perhaps it's the same with dogs - who knows.

Sue


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

just like in people, there needs to be a balance in the genetic line in order to have stable well balance dogs and people. not sure whats happening with all these weaker nerved dogs, there is way to many. maybe the gene pool needs to be researched deeper in some breedings, more proven litter lines,
i also think with a weakr nerved dog, they need the right inviroment and help to become as comfortable as possible, and this takes a very good fit in order to work. otherwise the dog never experiences any fairly normal ways of life. put a weak nerved dog with an owner who is stressed out, no leadership, and easily upset, would be disasterous for a weak nerved dog. Hey there out there, these dogs, most of us gsd owners either know someone who has one, or have one ourselves. trying to give them a balance in life, Obedience and lots of special training. and i wouldn't stay away from some type of sport with a weaker nerved dog, it can build incredible confidence, like tracking has in my dog. he could care less about strangers being around, following him on the track etc. Agility can be good, but all depending on what your dealing with, its a more exciting sport so, it might ramp things up to much. where as tracking is more laid back and the dog is doing the dog is doing the work on his own. its made a huge difference with my weak nerved guy, along with other types of training, that will continue for his lifetime to ensure he doesn't slip back.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

matthewm11 said:


> I adopted my dog at 7 months old and she had lived her whole life up until that point living outside with very little socialization. Despite this when I first met her she happily approached me and didn't seem at all fearfull if me. When I first took her home everything was new to her, she didn't even know how to use stairs and was a little unsure of everything, but would quickly learn. She was very shy but not to the point where she overwhelmed around strangers. Six months later and she is basically the same as your dog in that she shows no fear of people, animals, loud noises etc. and approaches the unknown with
> curiousity rather than fear. Just the other day the happily greeted maintnence guys at a park using loud chainsaws and moving big branches and logs. In her case I have to assume its genetics, not socislization.


So either Dunbar is wrong or we have dogs with good genes


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

debbiebrown said:


> out, Obedience and lots of special training. and i wouldn't stay away from some type of sport with a weaker nerved dog, it can build incredible confidence, like tracking has in my dog. he could care less about strangers being around, following him on the track etc. Agility can be good, but all depending on what your dealing with, its a more exciting sport so, it might ramp things up to much. where as tracking is more laid back and the dog is doing the dog is doing the work on his own. its made a huge difference with my weak nerved guy, along with other types of training, that will continue for his lifetime to ensure he doesn't slip back.


 
That's interesting Debbie - makes sense. I suppose if their minds are well occupied, they won't be so concerned with other things. Just like us, if we're really worried and upset about something, the best thing to do is take our mind of it by busying ourselves with something else. 

Sue


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yep, keeping the mind busy is a good thing, human or canine............works every time!


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