# What handling system do you use?



## wildo

If you are working in agility, have you embraced a handling system? Perhaps a combo of handling systems? I am very interested to hear what you think of the concept and how far you've taken it!

Man- just thought of one more option: "I'm in the process of deciding on a handling system" which is the category I fall into. Maybe a mod can add that? MRL?


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## wildo

For those who are voting the "what the heck is a handling system!?" category, I really like how simplistically AgilityNerd explains it:



> A system might state when, how, and why to apply handling maneuvers


Greg Derrett, Linda Mecklenburg, and Jenny Damm have all created and published "systems" to describe how, when, and why to apply specific handling maneuvers. If you are new to agility, it would probably be wise to investigate these different systems to try to discover which may or may not work well for you. Then again, you may fall in my boat and find that discovering which system works well for you requires not just investigation and reading, but also trial and error.

In class yesterday, I was told about a Mecklenburg concept of "natural cues" that both surprised and confused me. In spite of my confusion ('how the *F* could this possibly work??') I gave it a try and was _shocked_ that my dog seemed to understand exactly what I wanted. Natural cues... Very interesting... This is just one example of why you may choose one handling system over another.


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## sadie2010

Thanks for the info.
I am one of the ones who doesn't know what a handling system is.
Nice to know.


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## Liesje

Me too, lol. I use the, uh, scream and gesture wildly!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Big mix for me, but it's important to figure out some consistancy that makes sense for you and you dog...


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## wildo

MRL- care to elaborate? I'm curious who you mix with. Based on your responses about the RFP in the "jump cards" thread I created, I take it you are not a as much a Derrett fan as you are, perhaps, a Mecklenburg fan. That's my guess... I'm still learning about those two systems, so not sure I can name a lot of differences in them.


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## wildo

Actually, MRL- I totally take that back... In fact, I think you told me in a thread I can't quite remember that you DO use the RFP. Not sure what I was thinking about the jump cards thread- I think you just wanted them more clear.

Anyway- I am still really curious on your system!


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## doggiedad

after seeing all of those titles your dogs have
i want you to teach me the "ug, scream and gesture
wildly system". 



Liesje said:


> Me too, lol. I use the, uh, scream and gesture wildly!


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## Stosh

As you know we've had a total of 3 agility classes and I wasn't aware of any 'system'. Mine is pretty much 'he's never going to do that' so I stand back and watch and what do you know, he does it!! Guess it's time to move on from that. Thanks for the info


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## wildo

Stosh said:


> As you know we've had a total of 3 agility classes and I wasn't aware of any 'system'. Mine is pretty much 'he's never going to do that' so I stand back and watch and what do you know, he does it!! Guess it's time to move on from that. Thanks for the info


At three classes, you shouldn't expect to know of the system (unless, of course, you've done some research prior to starting). If you just decided to do agility out of the blue- there's no reason at all to think you'd know of the system. And that's OK! 

There is a _very_ strong chance your instructor embraces a specific system though, and if you ask them- they'll certainly fill you in.

[EDIT]- FWIW- I've been doing agility for 9 months now, and just now thinking about systems and embracing one over another. I do know that both my current and prior instructors use the Mecklenburg system. A good instructor will let you use whatever system you like, of course.


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## MaggieRoseLee

:bump:


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## Stosh

She has discussed and introduced a few methods for us to mull over.


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## wildo

Thanks for the bump MRL- I have to admit my confusion on the lack of response here... 

I know there are plenty of people who frequent this forum that are competing at a decently high level. I'm surprised that those folks wouldn't know of what system they use. Then again, maybe they just haven't seen this thread yet...


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> Thanks for the bump MRL- I have to admit my confusion on the lack of response here...
> 
> I know there are plenty of people who frequent this forum that are competing at a decently high level. I'm surprised that those folks wouldn't know of what system they use. Then again, maybe they just haven't seen this thread yet...



I'm not sure if the majority of people do use handling systems. Most of the people I know who compete don't and I'd guess most of the instructors around here don't either. Honestly, there are instructors around here who probably have no idea what a handling system is but have titled their dogs to upper levels and volunteer to teach classes. Really, the training club has a hard enough time committing to working on contact behaviors consistently in the lower level classes.


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## wildo

AgileGSD said:


> I'm not sure if the majority of people do use handling systems. Most of the people I know who compete don't and I'd guess most of the instructors around here don't either. Honestly, there are instructors around here who probably have no idea what a handling system is but have titled their dogs to upper levels and volunteer to teach classes. Really, the training club has a hard enough time committing to working on contact behaviors consistently in the lower level classes.


Whether people realize it or not, they are using a handling system of some sort- most likely a combination of systems. If you don't use a handling system- do you RFP? Do you rear cross? Do you front cross? These are defined maneuvers that are required to be used in a _specific_ context. Unless you have a system to tell you when to use the maneuvers- you are not likely to do so well... To me, it makes the *most* sense to research these systems and find one (or a combo) that makes sense to us.

For example, the Greg Derrett system embraces the RFP as a way to steer the dog through serpentines/threadles while the Mecklenburg system does not use RFP (to my knowledge). If you encounter a serpentine or a threadle and you don't embrace a system- how will you decide what maneuver to use??


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## wildo

Since I had never heard of Jenny Damm prior to creating this thread (her name came up in a Mecklenburg bio as a handling system), I decided to try to compare her to a known constant- such as the Greg Derrett system. I found some video of both her and Susan Garrett (who embraces the GD system) at the 2010 FCI World Championships.

See Jenny Damm's JWW run here:





See Susan Garrett's JWW run here (the first half of the video):





Here is the course map for that run:









I have extrapolated Jenny's path as a handler here:









I have extrapolated Susan's path as a handler here:









And I have compared the two paths via this animation:









There are clearly some differences in the handling systems! Jenny really likes to both be ahead of her dog instructing from the front, as well as to run backwards; she uses a lot of backy-upys! She also uses a lot of what I will call a "reverse flick" where she has her back to a jump and sends the dog over the jump behind her. This isn't actually a rear cross since the dog doesn't technically leave a specific side of her body. It's an odd thing though. Very flashy, very fast.

Susan, on the other hand using the GD system never wants the dog behind her. Rather than the "reverse flick" thing, Susan will choose to front cross. If she needs to get the dog's attention in order to get on the proper side of a hard angled-jump, she will RFP. For Susan, "a change of hands means a change of direction" (as she stated in her Success with One Jump DVD) and it's clear that she doesn't give directional instruction unless required. She is often "running like a normal person" (as MRL has stated) without pointing all over the place. It's pretty cool to see the dog choosing a clear, straight path unless instructed otherwise. It's also very fast, but certainly not flashy. In fact- with the reverse flow pivots happening often, you might say it's a bit stiff.

Something to point out with both videos is that Jenny beat SG by about two seconds, but SG's mess up at jump #3 burned about two seconds. I think that's an important point because it shows that *both handling systems can work very well.* It's not like one is "better" than another, it just depends on the handler and dog.

[EDIT]- By the way- Jenny has an _incredible_ send to the weaves, while Susan has an _incredible_ distance send to jump #9 out of the tunnel... That's why these are the pros! Unbelievable agility in those videos!


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Something to point out with both videos is that Jenny beat SG by about two seconds, but SG's mess up at jump #3 burned about two seconds. I think that's an important point because it shows that *both handling systems can work very well.* It's not like one is "better" than another, it just depends on the handler and dog.


Exactly, and knowing your 'system' so you are consistant with the information to the dog!

THanks for doing all that amazing work with finding the videos to compare PLUS doing the diagrams! 

Everyone should watch those 2 videos just to see how TOP competitors run their dogs (course they are BC's  ) .


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## wildo

It was important for me. I learned in high school that I hate theory. I learned in college that application is useless without theory! While the above work isn't really theory, it is at least an investigation in the differences between the two approaches (especially since I hadn't heard of Jenny Damm). I have to admit- though I would not likely enjoy her handling system myself- her fast, flashy nature is seriously fun to watch. I'd likely cheer louder for her than anyone else. I mean- that video was crazy fun to watch!

Concerning knowing your system in order to be consistent- I couldn't agree more! I'm learning more and more that I am not nearly as clear as I need to be. Not surprising since I am addicted to SG/GD training, but also enjoy some of the features (and I need to do more research here) of the Mecklenburg system. Last class, a situation came up that I didn't know how to handle in the GD system, but the Mecklenburg system had a shockingly easy solution... I'll draw a diagram and post for discussion...


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## wildo

Ok- here's the section of course in question:








(The black square is a post holding up the roof)

How would you handle the turn from 3 to 4? Let me preface this with the fact that I've been thinking about and practicing more lateral distance in my agility handling. So it seemed at first that a forward send to three, with my arm extended (pointing) while rolling my shoulders to get the turn into 4.

But wait- in the Mecklenburg system- the shoulder roll is an _extension_ cue, not to mention that she claims it is a *natural* cue (as opposed to trained). So the very fact that I am sending Pimg forward, arm extended, rolling my shoulders around-- it's a natural cue to extend out. 

I was concerned about this so (with my limited knowledge of the Mecklenburg system) I started thinking about the Derrett system. Here, it's pretty obvious- you need to run to the #3 jump, get eye contact (check in), do a post turn on the flat, send to the #4 jump and high tail it outta there for #5. In other words, you might call it babysitting the #3 jump a bit. Of course there's more to it than that. It's not really babysitting as much as getting the dog to check in...

Anyway, I spoke with my instructor about my dilemma here, and why I couldn't figure out the best route (I want extension and lateral distance, but I don't want her to take that tire!).

She informed me of _the other part_ of Mecklenburg's natural shoulder cue. Basically, the chart states that:
*Basic Cue:* Shoulders
*Natural or Trained:* Natural
*Forward Cue:* Facing forward, Turning away from dog
*Turning Cue:* Turning toward dog
*Collection Cue:* Facing dog

Specifically- the collection cue. I admit, this felt so _unnatural_ to me and I had to practice it a lot, but when I sent Pimg, she totally got it, no problems- totally worked. When I forward send to jump #3, instead of rolling my shoulders such that they are pointing to #4 (which would cue extension, and likely get the tire), instead I would sort of side-step keeping my shoulders _facing_ Pimg as she rounded #3, cueing collection. Once she was beyond the point of getting the tire, I could roll my shoulders turning into the #4 jump and get outta there towards #5. I swear- I was working at least 12 feet away from Pimg on this! I was truly impressed.

Tell my how you learn that without a system! 
Thus my new endeavor...


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## MaggieRoseLee

I like alot of Linda Mecklinburg's stuff. For me, Greg Derretts stuff, the babysitting Jump #3 information is LATE and will cause Bretta to knock the bar.

Instead the turning INTO the dog (think it's called a RFP? Reverse Flow Pivot) to have Bretta check in with me so I can SHOW her #4 rather than micro-managing #3 works better. This video (sadly not until 2:45) shows what I also call the RFP and I use it all the time..


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## wildo

Yeah the more I see the Mecklenburg stuff, the more I am liking it. I think it's sad that she doesn't have a DVD out explaining her stuff. There is SO MUCH Garrett/Darrett stuff out there that is so well produced. I've learned a ton from all their DVDs and I am not sure I have enough time to read Linda's book: Developing Handler Skills

I'll have to make the time soon enough. Currently, I am _really_ loving SG's Shaping Success!


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## LuvourGSDs

wildo said:


> Yeah the more I see the Mecklenburg stuff, the more I am liking it. I think it's sad that she doesn't have a DVD out explaining her stuff. There is SO MUCH Garrett/Darrett stuff out there that is so well produced. I've learned a ton from all their DVDs and I am not sure I have enough time to read Linda's book: Developing Handler Skills
> 
> I'll have to make the time soon enough. Currently, I am _really_ loving SG 's Shaping Success!


Ok, when your done, will gladly take them dvds off your hands......... lol I have bought 2 so far & watched 1 & part of another. I also bought a $40 agility book (not sure name, will have to ck) from Clean Run that I have been SO bad about reading. 

So far, has seemed to be Jen's (me) handling skills, LOL Learn as you go........


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## wildo

Dang, LuvourGSDs- I was waiting to see where you would vote. I assume you also fal into the "unsure" boat then... Even with all those agility titles!?


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> Specifically- the collection cue. I admit, this felt so _unnatural_ to me and I had to practice it a lot, but when I sent Pimg, she totally got it, no problems- totally worked. When I forward send to jump #3, instead of rolling my shoulders such that they are pointing to #4 (which would cue extension, and likely get the tire), instead I would sort of side-step keeping my shoulders _facing_ Pimg as she rounded #3, cueing collection. Once she was beyond the point of getting the tire, I could roll my shoulders turning into the #4 jump and get outta there towards #5. I swear- I was working at least 12 feet away from Pimg on this! I was truly impressed.
> 
> Tell my how you learn that without a system!
> Thus my new endeavor...


LoLaBu Land Experience Cik-Cap


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## wildo

I thought cik and cap were used for jump wrapping exclusively. Is that not true? In the situation I described (see the diagram) wrapping jump #3 would not set you up for jump #4. I have been pretty fascinated with cik and cap though (actually- pretty fascinated with Silvia Trkman in general). If I could figure out how to pronounce them- I might just train them! Haha- in all seriousness- Greg Derrett has the exact same concept in his system. He uses different words (can't quite remember- he outlines it in his Agility Foundations DVD), but it's exactly the same thing.

[EDIT]- Note: in my mind, jump wrapping means a 180 degree turn- or close to it. A 90 degree turn isn't "jump wrapping" in my mind. I might be wrong on that though...


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## LuvourGSDs

wildo said:


> Dang, LuvourGSDs- I was waiting to see where you would vote. I assume you also fal into the "unsure" boat then... Even with all those agility titles!?


LOL, 2 wkends ago at a 1 day show we earned our NAJ title.  I try. I would love to learn & know more pro handling skills. I need to find a new trainer for this one. We have not had classes all summer & hope to find a new place to train. Right now it's been just here at home. Sable was 4 when I started to do anything with her, she is just a great working girl. At 7 yrs jumping 24" with no issues. Not a super fast GSD, but I feel sure & steady to a degree.  I always get a shows people not believing she's 7! I would love like I said to learn more pro ways, esp with new upcoming pup. I am a big fan of rear crosses. Sorry, just I fall into, my own training method, I guess. I do own a Derret & SG dvd. I have no clue about the others you mentioned & their methods.  Have heard of them tho...


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## BlackPuppy

My handling system is try to keep up with my dog and do a lot of rear crosses. Breathe!

I'll have to work on that with this new dog.


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## wildo

haha... this is *so* fascinating to me! At the very least, this thread has made some people aware of different handling systems out there. For me, I still maintain this thought:



wildo said:


> I learned in high school that I hate theory. I learned in college that application is useless without theory!


In my opinion- if you want to get good, and I mean really good, at agility- you better understand not just _what_ you are doing, but _why_ you are doing it. I've watched enough videos (Susan Garrett, Greg Derrett, Moe Strenfel, Stacy Peardot-Goudy, and Kathy Keats [as well as reading the Jane Simmons-Moake books]) to know that those people know _exactly_ why they do the things they do. For them, competing at ultra high levels, figuring things out as they go isn't good enough- it isn't consistent enough. Sure, of course they all start somewhere, just like us "regular" people haha! Point is, if the people competing at a World level embrace a handling system- that alone is a good reason for me to do the same! :toasting:


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## LuvourGSDs

With Carole!!!!  Ok Willy, you find a good one you like, plz share. I hate bouncing all over so, I wanted to stay consistant, but like everything, SO many diff ways.....  I have found that I have busted out the clicker way more working with Skyrah. Seems to be working. Would like speed a bit more with her, hope to gain that.  You are super cool to take the time & research & READ. I am bad about the time & reading part.  I thank ya for educating us!


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## LuvourGSDs

Oh btw, I would love to be MLR good also!!!! Would love to get to their level some yr! LOL I do it for a hobby so, need to limit them show entries! (ouch). Not many close either, but I love to do...


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## mwiacek10

Stosh, are you able to work with your dog off leash in the ring already? I just can't get Gunny to understand that when I let him go its not to run around like a fool!


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## wildo

LuvourGSDs said:


> Ok Willy, you find a good one you like, plz share.


Haha! Will do. If I can actually get ahold of this: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...167605-wanted-clean-run-magazines-2009-a.html

then I'll at least be setup pretty well to know the difference between the Greg Derrett system and the Mecklenburg system. Clean Run did a 10-segment piece comparing the two. I am itching to read it...



LuvourGSDs said:


> I hate bouncing all over so, I wanted to stay consistant, but like everything, SO many diff ways.....


Well, the only problem with agility is that there is SO much to learn! It's comical to me to think back to watching my first trial (which was literally one day prior to me starting agility training- Feb 21, 2011) and think about how "easy" it looked! Now, I've learned that the more you learn about agility- the more you open up new things to learn! It's a vicious cycle. There's seriously a ton of different ways to do things- finding one "system" will be difficult. At least the nice thing about a "system" is that by definition, the system tells you how to be consistent in all situations. With so many systems though, there is a ton of learning until you can settle in with it. Not to mention that a lot of people (like MRL) actually _mix_ systems taking the parts from each that work for them... Geesh... so much to know!


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## LuvourGSDs

mwiacek10 said:


> Stosh, are you able to work with your dog off leash in the ring already? I just can't get Gunny to understand that when I let him go its not to run around like a fool!


LOL, the zoomies.....


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## Saxtonhill

I would prefer fit the training to suit the particular traits/needs of the dog rather than ascribe to any one system. 

Best regards
Cathy


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## MaggieRoseLee

LuvourGSDs said:


> Oh btw, I would love to be MLR good also!!!! Would love to get to their level some yr!


Thanks for that! :wub:


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## LuvourGSDs

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Thanks for that! :wub:


You are welcome!


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## LuvourGSDs

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Thanks for that! :wub:


Hey, btw, did you see that other title earned?


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## MaggieRoseLee

LuvourGSDs said:


> Hey, btw, did you see that other title earned?


That your 'FSP' title or the NA ???


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## LuvourGSDs

MaggieRoseLee said:


> That your 'FSP' title or the NA ???


FSP title?  We earned our 24" NAJ. One day show & needed that 1 leg.  Now up to Open in both Std & JWW... Catching up to where we were in Preferred...  Ok, might be in Open for awhile, lol darn refusals cost us....


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## wildo

LuvourGSDs said:


> FSP title?


Fun Sable Puppy, of course.


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## LuvourGSDs

wildo said:


> Fun Sable Puppy, of course.


Geez......... lmbo!!!!!! :crazy:


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> Fun Sable Puppy, of course.


Good job Wildo! 

Congrats on the NAJ too though :wub:


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## LuvourGSDs

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Good job Wildo!
> 
> Congrats on the NAJ too though :wub:


Yes Willy, rt on it! LOL Ok, MRL..... Trying to confuse me even more with that FSP title, lmbo! Thanks, just one flaw in my Jumpers run, not sure what I did, need to share. Other than that, clean. Getting there.....


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Wow, to be honest I have never thought of it. I don't follow a specific handling system. 
I do prefer to run my dog from behind, which worked really well in fast, flowy, NADAC courses. Now that we're in Master's USDAA, I'm forced to front a lot more because of the tricky angles.


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## mygsds

Just reading this thread now - I use a mix of systems including Susan Salo for jumping and some Mecklenburg - started with Linda to teach, then got better with Salo and now adding some Linda's handling back in.

Pat


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## wildo

Susan Salo has a handling system? I knew she had her jump grids, but I thought those were to teach a dog jump techniques- not so much a handler's handling system. Can you elaborate, mygsds?


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> Susan Salo has a handling system? I knew she had her jump grids, but I thought those were to teach a dog jump techniques- not so much a handler's handling system. Can you elaborate, mygsds?


I'm betting she means she had to add Salo to help keep the bars up (me too!) THEN could work the handling systems in to get thru a course better


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