# Shiloh Shepherds



## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I work at a pet nutrition center and one of my customers just brought in her 10 week old shiloh shepherd. I remember when I was a young child around 8 years old, one of my girlfriend's parents owned a shiloh. They even named her that. I did do some research on them and came to the understanding that not all breeder's shiloh's are truly shiloh's. It is to my understanding that they are the old fashioned breed of gsd. Is this true? Are they different then coaties? And what I really didn't get is are they regisited with the AKC, and if they aren't, why not? They are supposedly purebreds aren't they? I'm confused, but wouldn't mind wanting to own one in the future.....they sure are beauties!! What's the story?


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

Oops, sorry guys, forgot all about that all important "search" feature! Duh....anyway, seems like I might have drummed up a controversial subject, so if I did so sorry. Just was confused.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

They are considered to be a branch off from GSDs. They are not registered with the AKC because they're not considered by many to be a pure breed because of that branch off. Temperment wise they're more mellow and less driven than GSDs. They're body shape is slightly different from a GSD but then you take a look at all the different lines of GSD and realize that doesnt amount to much. they're supposedly the old fashioned GSD but they're temperments are entirely different and they're generally supposed to be bigger than a GSD. I wouldnt mind having a shiloh either. They're gorgeous dogs and you can even get them in the shorter stock coats! love it!

they're also a relatively new breed as well.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

Thank you Kzoppa! I went on the Shiloh Shepherd Club of America. They have some breeders that seem pretty reptuable. I hear you have to watch the ones breeding what are supposed to be Shiloh's but aren't. Some are charging as much as 5 grand. I think this customer got an imposter, lol! Hope not. Anyway, I went to one of the breeder's sites. Their pups are going for 1500.00 for pet quality and a grand on top of that for show. Didn't think that was too bad for a Shiloh. Especially if all the genetic testing is done. Humm.......hey, I can dream can't I?? lol!! Oh and caught a gander of the stock coats!!! Wow, really nice!! Wouldn't mind less of a drive either. I'm not getting any younger and I think this might be a nice match for me somewhere down the road when I'm too old to work my gsd's any longer, lol!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

if i can get my scanner to like me again (hubby touched it, now its mad) i'll see about loading the info i have for shilohs on here. have another thread i need to load it to as well. they're great dogs. less health issues than gsd's too.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I'd like that! The health issues with the gsd are a real concern to me. I'm so bonded with Storm, I couldn't imagine anything like that happening to him. It would be nice to have a gsd that has less of them, wouldn't it?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

oh yeah/ allergies are destroying one of our dogs. my other girl who lives with my inlaws has HD. i'll make hubby fix the scanner tomoorow if possible. all else fails i'll see if i can find what i have online. but we have my female who's with my inlaws registered with the vet as a shiloh. she fits the description pretty nicely for the stock coat


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

My Storm has battled skin problems since he was about a year and a half. I recently tried the Nzymes Healthy Skin Kit and it has worked wonders for him. He is also on a special diet which eliminates ingredients which feed yeast. In all my years of owning dogs I've never experienced anything like this. I was really at my wit's end with the itching and scratching. I even resorted to rubbing his groin with a special australian diaper rash cream which had to be specially ordered!!! You haven't lived until you've seen a petite grown woman rubbing diaper rash cream on a 100 pound male gsd! My hubbie said he wishes he would have had the camcorder out! lol! Now that would have been a real treat for this board, lol!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

As for the allergies, what kind of food do you feed? 
You can do a lot with just switching foods. My boy completely stopped scratching at all ever since I switched to Orijen 6fish and I have not had any reason to feed any supplements or medicate him. Have him tested on food allergies. Once you know, all you have to do is to find the right food. 

Sometimes, that is all it takes. 


As for Shiloh and the so called Old fashioned German Shepherds... I'll keep my mouth shut. :help:


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

LMAO! unfortunately right now we're battling allergies with our male but scratching and chewing like crazy because of fleas that suddenly appeared. and it doesnt help matters because our male also has flea allergies. cleaning and cleaning and cleaning. bathing is tough because the temps keep changing so bathing outside isnt an option and bathing inside has never been an option with just me doing it and no sprayer to help rinse. as soon as the flea problem is taken care of we're doing a diet switch for Riley. i did check out that nzymes site and may order some stuff but we'll see. Riley would probably be thrilled is i put anything on him but without gloves.... i'm not going there. lol.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> As for the allergies, what kind of food do you feed?
> You can do a lot with just switching foods. My boy completely stopped scratching at all ever since I switched to Orijen 6fish and I have not had any reason to feed any supplements or medicate him. Have him tested on food allergies. Once you know, all you have to do is to find the right food.
> 
> Sometimes, that is all it takes.
> ...


 

do tell! very curious. i was explaining what my knowledge of Shiloh's is. I'm interested to know other peoples knowledge on the subject. my understanding is its kinda tough to determine.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

Solace Shilohs

Check out Asia and the other one. Geez, I already forget their names and I was just there, lol! Fleas are bad right about now. Hey, if you have a problem bathing check out the Hydrosurge Rapid Bathing System. I absolutely love it for Storm. The only thing that would relieve his hot groin when it got bad was to put him in the tub and spray his groin with cool water and I would put an oatmeal soothing shampoo cartridge in. You can get these systems cheaper online but Petsmart sells them. I paid 65.00 for mine, but still cheaper then running to the groomers. That's not an option for me since I also have 3 other dogs. Used to have 5 but just lost my lab/shepherd mix September 4th. He was 13 1/2. I hate like **** to use the Advantix on Storm, but I have to. It's been so mild here in South Jersey, and I have a feeling that these fleas are gonna be around for awhile. Storm is also allergic to flea bites. I think Storm is allergic to Storm, lol! Oh yea, and the Nzymes have a 120 day guarantee.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> They are considered to be a branch off from GSDs. They are not registered with the AKC because they're not considered by many to be a pure breed because of that branch off. Temperment wise they're more mellow and less driven than GSDs. They're body shape is slightly different from a GSD but then you take a look at all the different lines of GSD and realize that doesnt amount to much. they're supposedly the old fashioned GSD but they're temperments are entirely different and they're generally supposed to be bigger than a GSD. I wouldnt mind having a shiloh either. They're gorgeous dogs and you can even get them in the shorter stock coats! love it!
> 
> they're also a relatively new breed as well.


I do not think its fair to compare shilohs and GSDs.They are not like the GSD in anyway and are not meant to be. Anyone claiming they are "old fashioned type GSDs" is just flat out lying. Why do people think old fashioned GSDs were low energy oversized gentle dogs?? Sure doesn't sound GSD to me.

Here are 2 threads 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/99930-shiloh-king-shepherds.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...93185-german-shepherd-vs-shiloh-shepherd.html


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

crazyboutdogs said:


> It would be nice to have a gsd that has less of them, wouldn't it?


Of course it would - that's why people turn to breeders to stack the odds in their favor, or rescue/adopt an older dog  

If you think you can find that in a Shiloh, you unfortunately won't. They are not German Shepherds, even if the health claim were true. Not a criticism of these dogs, just fact. They were created from multiple different breeds to create a giant, fluffy teddy bear dog. That's not a German Shepherd. They are a very different type of dog.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

Mrs. K., I did switch foods, tried elimination diets, to no avail. My problem was the food in a sense. I was feeding a grain free that was for dogs with allergy problems. Little did I realize that it was not allergies, but yeast. Once I took Storm off of the grain frees with all the high glycemic carbs like potatos, pea protein, and tapioca, and put him back on simple carbs like brown rice, barley and oatmeal it was like night and day. Between the detox and the diet change he's been a new man, lol! 

As far as the shiloh's I would appreciate all the input I can get, especially since I wouldn't totally rule out ever owning one.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

The Shiloh Shepherd Club of America claims (and I don't know enough about this breed to know if it is fact or fiction) that they are from gsd bloodlines. I have heard rumours that there is some malamute in there to give them their bone mass and size. I don't know....


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> do tell! very curious. i was explaining what my knowledge of Shiloh's is. I'm interested to know other peoples knowledge on the subject. my understanding is its kinda tough to determine.


Nah, it's just that I have very strong feelings about the "Oooh we have to better the breed and create a new better German Shepher" kind of thing. 

Seriously, if you don't want a German Shepherd with all his traits than don't get one but don't start a new breed because you think he has to be a certain way. 

And to me "old fashioned" GSD breeders are frauds to me. I know what the GSD looked like in the early 1900's and it certainly did not look like one of those dogs and because I am waaay to emotional for that kind of topic and have very strong feelings I'll keep my mouth shut. Not because of you but because I know myself and I'll get myself wrapped up in a heated discussion that runs in circles. :help:


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I didn't think the Shiloh was a "new" breed. I remember my friend's parents owning one. Let's see. I'm now 46 and I was around 9 years old. So that was some time ago. Also, I spent summers as a little girl with my sister. She owned a large female sable gsd. I don't remember her looking much different then the gsd's of today. Well, maybe except for the fact that she had a straighter topline from what I see alot of nowadays, but that's another thing I don't really understand about the breed. Why are some gsd's topline straight and some that I see (especially american show lines) so angulated in the rear? To me I would think that that would make the hips more able to go bad. And there are so many different looking gsd's. Like the american and european imports. Humm....what a confusing breed....lol!! Certainly not like the pug or golden retriever whom all pretty much look alike, lol!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> I do not think its fair to compare shilohs and GSDs.They are not like the GSD in anyway and are not meant to be. Anyone claiming they are "old fashioned type GSDs" is just flat out lying. Why do people think old fashioned GSDs were low energy oversized gentle dogs?? Sure doesn't sound GSD to me.
> 
> Here are 2 threads
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/99930-shiloh-king-shepherds.html
> ...


 

i never said any of it was fact! i just stated MY knowledge of the breed. 

i agree with mrs.k on the old fashioned GSD breeders being frauds.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

All I want to know is where the heck do they come from???!!! lol.....


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

compared to other breeds, Shiloh's are a new breed. still wouldnt mind having one. they're pretty dogs and nice family dogs.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../99930-shiloh-king-shepherds.html#post1356711


Chris Wild said:


> My personal feeling is that if people want oversized, long coated GSD look-a-likes with more laid back temperaments, I would rather have breeders working to responsibly create a "breed" that fits those criteria and the people who want them to purchase from those breeders, rather than the BYBs producing intentionally producing that sort of distorted version of a GSD. I think this is better for all involved, and the breeds as a whole.
> 
> So I'm much more in favor of Shilohs and Kings than I am the "Old Style" or "Old Fashioned" GSDs pandered about.
> 
> Though I will still NEVER understand where this idea that the GSDs of yesteryear were large long coats came from, or how people are using it to justify breeding oversized long coats, or creating breeds like that and claiming they resemble old fashioned GSDs. Because if anything, the true old fashioned GSD was *smaller* than modern GSDs, and long coats were no more common then than they are now. It's this misinformation that people use to justify their breeding that really irritates me. If they want an oversized, longcoated GSD look-a-like, just say so. But stop lying about the heritage of the GSD breed.


:thumbup:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

crazyboutdogs said:


> I didn't think the Shiloh was a "new" breed. I remember my friend's parents owning one. Let's see. I'm now 46 and I was around 9 years old. So that was some time ago. Also, I spent summers as a little girl with my sister. She owned a large female sable gsd. I don't remember her looking much different then the gsd's of today. Well, maybe except for the fact that she had a straighter topline from what I see alot of nowadays, but that's another thing I don't really understand about the breed. Why are some gsd's topline straight and some that I see (especially american show lines) so angulated in the rear? To me I would think that that would make the hips more able to go bad. And there are so many different looking gsd's. Like the american and european imports. Humm....what a confusing breed....lol!! Certainly not like the pug or golden retriever whom all pretty much look alike, lol!


I guess to me the Shiloh is a new breed since I've never heard of them before I joined the forums. I didn't even know that there was such a thing as old fashioned GSD's. 
It aggrevates me because we are trying to make a difference with the SV, stick to very tough regulations in Germany and all they have to do over there is to claim "Hey, these are old fashioned dogs, it's what the GSD USED to be" don't have to earn any titles at all and you can be lucky if they are even OFA certified and get 2000 plus Dollars for a pup. It makes me furious and sometimes I am like "WHAT the heck do I go to a dog club for." and I am so tired of the excuse "Oooh we want to better the breed..." because there are so many breeders out there that use that excuse to make money and NOT to better the breed. If they wanted to better the breed they should go back to the roots and breed what the GSD was actually bred for. If they wanted to breed TRUE old fashioned GSD's than they'd breed herding dogs and not overlarge fat dogs!



As for different GSD's:
Because there are a couple of different types of GSD's. 

There is the Showline GSD and the Workingline GSD. 
The working line dog is usually the one with a straight backline and not that much angulated. The showline dogs can go to extremes and I hate what the showline breeders did to the GSD. 

My dad always used to say


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> i never said any of it was fact! i just stated MY knowledge of the breed.
> 
> i agree with mrs.k on the old fashioned GSD breeders being frauds.


I didn't mean for my quoting you to imply that I thought you thought that. You mentioned thats what people say about them and I was addressing what people say not you. Does that make sense? I'm tired so I don't know if I"m making sense :crazy:

As for the extreme slopes in AM showlines etc.. here's a good thread, long but still lots of good info in there http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/133877-straight-back-gsds.html


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I just did find out that in the 1980's they did outcross a gsd with a large Malamute to create the density and large size of the shiloh. The malamute they used had excellant rated hips and this is why this particular dog and breed was used. They have since 4th removed the malamute from the heritage, but it still cannot be guaranteed how much malamute blood each individual shiloh pup will possess due to the fact that every pup in a litter will carry different genes from his past. So they did flat out admit that they did outcross a gsd to a malamute. Maybe that's why they have such a wolf-like appearance. Two very closs ancestors of the wolf were crossed. The reptutable shiloh breeders do not consider their dogs as old fashioned gsd's at all, but hate the fact that they are referred to as that! They want their breed to be referred to as the Shiloh Shepherd and only that. Also, to be absolutely that you are getting a pure shiloh shepherd, the breeder has to be able to have the pups registered with the ISSR which is the registry for the shiloh. They are trying their hardest to keep this breed from landing in the wrong hands. The shiloh breeders also sell with contracts for spay/neuter unless bred back to a registerd shiloh. At least they are trying to keep their breed from becoming what most purebreds are now due to the byb's and millers!!!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

From what I have heard, Shilohs have just as many health problems as GSDs if not more. I've also heard of temperament problems.
They are a new breed, made to basically be a laid-back, larger, straight-backed German shepherd type dog. They were created by crossing GSDs with a few other breeds.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

Uh oh, too many typos, I'm gone nite nite! lol! Nite!


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

The original shiloh breeders have not outcrossed the breed since 1980 when they introduced the malamute. The outcrossed are being done by fraudulent shiloh wanna be breeders who are just breeding fake "shilohs" for profit. There is a warning on the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR) on how to protect yourself from landing in the wrong breeders hands. 

Also, the rumors about health problems are from the bys's and frauds who are unscrupously breeding wannabe Shilohs. They get the word "rare" in their head, and that's it!! Bang, everybody trying to cross a gsd with a malamute and called the pups shilohs. My advice to anyone who would even think of purchasing one of these dogs is to find a breeder only through the ISSR and making sure that parents and pups can be registered with that registry. Because they can't be registered with the AKC, this gives the unscrupulous breeders the chance to manufacture the "fake" imposter shilohs. Just like the knock off handbags. Oops did I say that?! Not that I even own a knock off drop dead georgeous coach bag for 40 bucks....ooops did I say that also??!! K, I'm gone to bed.....lol!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Shiloh Shepherds were made from crossing GSDs(the large ones of the litter) with Alaskan Malamutes, and another breed that I can't think of. They are NOT what a GSD is supposed to be. Due to the fact that Shiloh Shepherds are larger, they will have more bone problems(from what I have read and heard) and won't live as long(Large breeds such as Shiloh Shepherds, Great Danes, etc don't live very long.) 

Shiloh Shepherds are oversized, couch potatoes. German Shepherds are an active and energetic breed. If you want a large laid back, couch potato dog get a Great Dane, or Mastiff(They are basically known to be those things, and I know people who have owned both and met their dogs and they were exactly that.) If you want a GSD, get one. Shiloh Shepherds ARE NOT a German Shepherd, they just happen to be larger and a completely different dog.


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

We have fostered a couple of Shilohs and came to the conclusion that they are much more "independent" in their thought process than a GSD.

Around here, if you hold up a piece of cheese and say SIT, five GSD behinds slam into the carpet. The Shiloh will look at you, as if to say, "Is that AMERICAN cheese? How about a nice wedge of Brie?". 

We used to have a Malamute/GSD cross who was one of the smartest dogs that I have ever met. But, he only did things on his terms. I have been a Malamute fan for a long time.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Last summer, the Shiloh Club of America (or something like that, it was the main club) actually had a three or four day meeting at a campground near our house. We took Rosa down there to meet the dogs and socialize.

They were HUGE. Like a GSD on growth hormones, and not quite as attractive (IMHO). There was a range of temperaments. One dog charged his gated pen, lunging and barking at us. Another was so mellow and sweet that he let puppy Rosa crawl on him and attempt to put her paws over his back (he was waaaaay too tall). When he tired of her crawling on him. he gently laid her on her side and held her down with his massive head, much to Rosa's delight.

I came away impressed by the sheer size of the dogs. And wondering how much they ate. And pooped.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I used to be a member of the club many many moons ago

To each his own, but for me, they aren't a dog that compares to a good gsd. I have met only a handful with good temperaments, they have as many if not more, health issues than the gsd because of their smaller gene pool, way over priced. Just not my cup of tea. They certainly do not resemble the "old fashioned gsd" that I know of.

Granted, there are some breeders trying to improve, responsibly breed these dogs and that's great, but if one thinks they are getting this HUGE GSD, they just aren't the same.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I was actually on a GSD message board in the 90s with the breed founder of Shilohs. From all of her posts on that board, I got the impression that she was not all that honest and forthcoming about the breed. People repeated asked her if the "MAW factor" (an outcross she had done) in her dogs was Malamute and Wolf and she would never say it was or wasn't. But her dancing around the subject made me and most other people on the board suspicious. She openly used at least one Malamute outcross. Another thing that struck me as odd about her was that she talks about her strict registry that requires hip certification to breed the dogs and temperament testing. But there is a loophole, which is that she gets final say. If she says the dog's hips look good or the temperament is good, the dog gets breeding papers even if they don't pass the tests. 

The idea that these were "old fashion GSDs" came from her. I believe in the 70s she bred extremely large GSDs under the kennel name Shiloh and attempted to show them in AKC conformation. When she didn't get the respect she wanted among GSD people, she decided she would start a new breed that was based solely on her idea of what an "old fashion GSD" was. Her version of an "old fashion GSD" was an extremely large dog, often with long haired and a dog with a much more "mild" temperament. The funny thing is that it is easy for any one to do a bit of research and see that giant, fuzzy dogs with softer temperaments are not historically correct for the breed. I suspect at a point, the breed will lose their stock coat all together because most of the breedings are long coat to long coat and most of the dogs featured on breeder's websites are long coats. There are actually two Shiloh Shepherd parent clubs - the founder's club and one that split off of the founder's club. I get the idea that there are a lot of "issues" between the two. 

My personal experience with Shilohs is that it is hard to find a sound, healthy one. Someone in my class who had a nice GSD got a rehome Shiloh from a breeder who would bite men (and had bitten men). I have known several who had very soft and/or very nervous/fearful temperaments. And their health is not always what the Shiloh breeders would led you to believe. They have a much more limited GSD based gene pool and as such, have the same or worse health concerns. One person at the training club bought one and the difference between any of the puppies being a breeding potential puppy and a pet quality puppy was if she was willing to spend $1000+ more on the puppy or not. She bought one anyway, as it seemed to be the case with many breeders she talked to but even she thought it was a bit strange. A friend of mine with Belgians went to a big Shiloh show (national or regional, I can't remember which but it was the breed founder's parent club) before she got her first Belgian. She had seen the breed in books/magazines and was very interested in buying one. After going to the show though, she decided they weren't right for her. She saw too many with iffy temperaments, including one popular sire who went after her BF when he walked by the dog at the show. 

I can see the appeal of them is, as they can be very impressive looking dogs. But I would suggest being extremely cautious if you want to pursue buying one. Be sure you meet as many relatives as possible and that they have temperaments that you would enjoy living with. Be aware that many Shiloh breeders seem a bit overly optimistic about their dog's abilities, temperament and health. The breed is mostly bred for looks and you don't see a lot of people doing a whole lot with them (performance, obedience, SchH, etc) but breeders still make all sorts of claims about their dog's "working ability".


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Since this is what a Shiloh Shepherd looks like: Kennel of Origin--The Real History of the Shiloh Shepherds










Compared to the origins of the current GSD: The German Shepherd Dog, breed history



I'm not seeing the 'Old Fashioned' GSD thing...

This is a REALLY cool video from 1936 in Germany of a Sch club training. Look at the GSD's and see if they look like the Shiloh's.

YouTube - Schutzhund in Germany 1936


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

The term "Old Fashioned" really does not fit. It came about because one of the original Shiloh Shepherd founders had a memory of a dog when she was little and wanted the shepherd to look like that. Not really to look like to original GSD even though some people now interpret it that way. She herself said she wanted a dog like the one she had when she was small.

Anyway, the SS is considered a "rare breed" and is not a pure GSD, though the SS has roots in the GSD. 

The originator of the SS bred in Thuringer and Württemberger shepherding dogs. This is where the GSD old and Shiloh confusion comes because Captain Max Von Stephanitz also used these lines (originator of the GSD). She then separated her foundation stock and went from there.

As to the Malemute, the lines were not directly outcrossed to a Malamute. Instead a MAW dog was used (the MAW was a combination of Giant Malamute, an Alt Deutcher Shaeferhunde and a White GSD). The MAW dog carried approximately 1/4 of malamute blood, and his direct offspring in the early 90's had 1/8 of Malamute blood in them. So right there you see loss of pure GSD.

Much like the creation of any new breed you keep breeding only those dogs that have the characteristics you want and that is what she did.

And also much like any new breed, bad breeders crop up and trash the dog which is why you see more and more bad Shilohs.

And of course the SS is not a coated GSD. 

The true coated GSD is due to a recessive gene that has existed in the GSD dog since its origins. A true coated GSD is one that pops out of a litter from standard parents who each carry the recessive gene. 

Of course again, some people have started breeding coated to coated which guarantees the coating of the pups (a standard can pop out still from their litters), which is what the SV accepts now in Germany for its own show line as long as both parents are coated.

Gee I hope that helps!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I have 2 Shiloh Shepherds from different breeders, both not from the original breed "founders" registry. All the politics between the different registries turned me off. They are Shilohs not GSD's. We learned about them around 10 years ago. And what interest us most of all was how they claimed to have such strict breeding standards and good health, HD wasn't predominant. Both of my dogs are about 115lbs. My male has panus and my female has seizures. They have similar characteristics of GSD's and are extremely smart. They are aloof with strangers, but that is my fault. 
I think the original breed intention was good. When Malamutes were introduced to the lines they veered off the GSD track. I can understand why it becomes a heated topic with GSD people. I don't think Shiloh breeders should try to pass their dogs off as any kind of GSD, they are Shiloh's. None the less I love my dogs and have learned so much over the last 20 years.
And yes I could see my male snubbing his nose and asking "well what kind of cheese is that".


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> My personal experience with Shilohs is that it is hard to find a sound, healthy one. Someone in my class who had a nice GSD got a rehome Shiloh from a breeder who would bite men (and had bitten men). I have known several who had very soft and/or very nervous/fearful temperaments. And their health is not always what the Shiloh breeders would led you to believe.


What you described is pretty much what I've heard from people who have experience with Shilohs as well.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Personally, I'm glad Shiloh's exist. I wish they'd get their act together on the politics and health issues, and I wish that everyone who wanted an oversized, couch potato dog that looks like a GSD would go to them and leave the "real" GSDs alone.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> My personal feeling is that if people want oversized, long coated GSD look-a-likes with more laid back temperaments, I would rather have breeders working to responsibly create a "breed" that fits those criteria and the people who want them to purchase from those breeders, rather than the BYBs producing intentionally producing that sort of distorted version of a GSD. I think this is better for all involved, and the breeds as a whole.
> 
> So I'm much more in favor of Shilohs and Kings than I am the "Old Style" or "Old Fashioned" GSDs pandered about.


I think that this sums it up really well.

Shilohs and King Shepherds are essentially the same breed except that there were some rifts among the breeders, causing them to split. Most of them do not claim to be breeding "old fashioned" German Shepherds or really any kind of German Shepherd, they are specifically breeding to a different breed standard, breeding an entirely different breed. Some of them claim they are preserving the "old style" German Shepherd but are honest about having a completely different breed standard and different goals for their breed. (Which doesn't really make sense, I guess.)

Shilohs originate from breeding oversized German Shepherds with Malamutes for the increased size, and they have their own breed standards and compete in conformation in the ARBA (American Rare Breed Association) shows and similar shows that allow non-AKC breeds to compete. They are judged against the Shiloh standard.

There are a number of Shiloh breeders out there that I would consider to be very reputable. They are active in titling and showing their dogs, carefully select buyers, and keep in touch with their puppy buyers.

Personally, I don't think they're any better or worse than any other dog - it comes down to the breeder and the breeder's knowledge. I am sure there are badly bred Shilohs out there just like there are badly bred German Shepherds. I'm sure some breeders produce temperament issues, too. 

I train with a girl who has a Shiloh and he's just about the sweetest pup but doesn't realize just how big he is. They got their CGC, started doing Rally Novice, did the herding test, and are showing in ARBA conformation. For fun. With no plans to breed. BUT they have a good breeder who is keeping in touch, mentoring them on showing in conformation and will help them get started with breeding if, in the future, they were to choose to stud him.

I'd rather see people who WANT overly large Shepherds to go to the Shiloh or King Shepherd people, instead of encouraging German Shepherd breeders to produce oversized dogs (and then label them as "old fashioned" or "old style"). Some people want a bigger dog. Let them get a Shiloh.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> I think that this sums it up really well.
> 
> Shilohs and King Shepherds are essentially the same breed except that there were some rifts among the breeders, causing them to split. Most of them do not claim to be breeding "old fashioned" German Shepherds or really any kind of German Shepherd, they are specifically breeding to a different breed standard, breeding an entirely different breed. Some of them claim they are preserving the "old style" German Shepherd but are honest about having a completely different breed standard and different goals for their breed. (Which doesn't really make sense, I guess.)
> 
> ...


I agree, there are the good the bad and the ugly of any breed. If you are going to breed do it right, or don't breed at all.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

AbbyK9 said:


> I'd rather see people who WANT overly large Shepherds to go to the Shiloh or King Shepherd people, instead of encouraging German Shepherd breeders to produce oversized dogs (and then label them as "old fashioned" or "old style"). Some people want a bigger dog. Let them get a Shiloh.


I've seen several people say that here, and I'm wondering why? 

If someone breeds "oversized" GSDs with good health and temperament, does health testing on all their dogs etc why shouldn't someone who wants that type of GSD go to that breeder? Why should they be told to go get a Shiloh instead, which from what I have been told are not the same as GSDs in either temperament/personality or build/appearance and may have more issues?
I don't see how it is detrimental to the breed as a whole for someone to breed a dog that is large but has good health/temperament. If other breeders don't like the looks, they don't have to breed to those lines just like they don't have to breed to American show lines if they don't like that type, or to DDR lines etc...
It seems like if every different "type" is made into a separate breed and segregated that is just doing to reduce the gene pool more and cause more problems.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Why bother having established dog breeds and breed standards, if every breeder is just going to breed whatever they want and/or whatever their customers demand?

So Bob down the road wants a German Shepherd. But he wants one that is AT LEAST 30" tall and AT LEAST 120lbs. Oh, but it can't have the energy level of a German Shepherd and maybe it would be good if the dog isn't too smart because then he might keep getting out of the yard or into the pantry.

Should Breeder Jim down the road start producing that kind of dog because people like Bob want that kind of dog? Even though they're not really German Shepherds because they don't match the breed standard, without which there really wouldn't be a breed?

IMHO.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

AgileGSD said:


> I was actually on a GSD message board in the 90s with the breed founder of Shilohs. From all of her posts on that board, I got the impression that she was not all that honest and forthcoming about the breed. People repeated asked her if the "MAW factor" (an outcross she had done) in her dogs was Malamute and Wolf and she would never say it was or wasn't. But her dancing around the subject made me and most other people on the board suspicious. She openly used at least one Malamute outcross. Another thing that struck me as odd about her was that she talks about her strict registry that requires hip certification to breed the dogs and temperament testing. But there is a loophole, which is that she gets final say. If she says the dog's hips look good or the temperament is good, the dog gets breeding papers even if they don't pass the tests.


Was this on the old Pet Care Forum boards on AOL? I know she used to post there and it always seemed to me that she kept reinventing the history of the breed to serve her purposes. I recall a lot of flame wars between her and other owners and breeders. The good old days!


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

My Frank is from an "Old fashioned" type breeder, He's my first gsd, I wasnt' going after an extra large GSD, what concerned me was the angulation that I was seeing on the GSD's at different shows I went to. I wanted a straighter back, I also was warned by different people I talked to about GSD's having alot of temperament problems, so that was also high on my list. 
Frank has a lot of drive ( I've always owned herding/working line border collies up to now) he loves to work I plan on doing several different things with him. 
I can see the argument over the size issue but I can't see the rest of the argument over the "Old fashioned" line being another choice over the working line or the show line maybe it needs another name.


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

Franksmom said:


> My Frank is from an "Old fashioned" type breeder, He's my first gsd, I wasnt' going after an extra large GSD, what concerned me was the angulation that I was seeing on the GSD's at different shows I went to. I wanted a straighter back, I also was warned by different people I talked to about GSD's having alot of temperament problems, so that was also high on my list.
> Frank has a lot of drive ( I've always owned herding/working line border collies up to now) he loves to work I plan on doing several different things with him.
> I can see the argument over the size issue but I can't see the rest of the argument over the "Old fashioned" line being another choice over the working line or the show line maybe it needs another name.


My German line GSD (from two standard coat german line GSDs) is actually not hardly angulated at all. He is balanced temperament and extremely social. My view is that it is the breeder the line, etc and not the breed. You can easily get a crappy old fashioned, Shiloh, American Alsation, etc. just like a GSD

When people start purposely breeding outside the standard to change physical aspects of the dog (such as oversizing) than it is no longer a GSD but a new shepherd type dog but that is my own opinion. This is true of any dog which is why there are so many breeds of spaniels, terriers, etc so in all honesty I do not consider a Shiloh, King or Old Fashioned a GSD, but they are a newer sheperd dog breed


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

"My view is that it is the breeder the line, etc and not the breed. You can easily get a crappy old fashioned, Shiloh, American Alsation, etc. just like a GSD"
I agree
If I had found another line of GSD breeder like your German line first I may have ended up there, Frank's my first and I was trying to find the best fit for what I want to do. 
I dont' agree with breeding any dog breed to an extreme either for looks, size or color. 
(I know the "fashoined line" advertises size too) but I had other reasons at the time for thinking that was the way I needed to go in choosing Frank. 
Maybe in the future they will be seperate in some way.
Mine maybe the exception but he has all the GSD characteristics that I read about and hear about except his size is alittle bigger not huge he'll end up about 28 inches and 100 pounds.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Also some "breeders" who put Oversized Large Old Fashioned German Shepherds" are using that as a ploy to sell their oversized overpriced couch potatoes.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

arycrest said:


> Was this on the old Pet Care Forum boards on AOL? I know she used to post there and it always seemed to me that she kept reinventing the history of the breed to serve her purposes. I recall a lot of flame wars between her and other owners and breeders. The good old days!


 Yep! She didn't give the best impression on that board at all. She did change her story a lot and like I said, refused to give much "real" info when questioned about the breed's history. 



VegasResident said:


> The term "Old Fashioned" really does not fit. It came about because one of the original Shiloh Shepherd founders had a memory of a dog when she was little and wanted the shepherd to look like that. Not really to look like to original GSD even though some people now interpret it that way. She herself said she wanted a dog like the one she had when she was small.


There is quite a bit of contradictions on the founder's website if you read through everything. Most of the newer info states the breed was meant to "recreate the original GSD" but some the older info states she bred oversized, coated dogs because she thought they were pretty. 

"If you seriously invoke on a journey of research, you will quickly learn that TODAY we have three distinct extremes within the "German Shepherd" breed:
(1)*The*  *American Show (German Shepherd)* *dogs* have changed dramatically over the years as most of you can clearly see if you take the time to go to a dog show. They are now much longer in body, with finer bone and smaller size. For generations they have been bred for angulation, resulting in the new streamlined style we see today. The temperament of the "show" dogs has also gone through some dramatic changes, with many people now complaining about spooky-shy dogs, with no courage left to protect their owners, or worse yet 'FEAR BITERS' that are totally unpredictable. By placing continuous emphasis on the "FLASHY" show dog, that "pulls" his handler around the ring, unfortunately, some of the German Shepherd Dogs greatest qualities (calm-stable intelligence) have been compromised.
(2)*The German Imports* on the other hand have excellent strong protective instincts, but they have been bred mainly for Schutzhund competition only. Since Americans pay thousands of dollars to import 'Working' dogs, the competition to produce hotter-tougher-harder specimens became intense. Price wars saw many inferior animals being brought in because they were cheaper and still considered Imports. These dogs have been bred here, resulting in polluting the good blood that had also been imported. 
 *Many of these dogs stay in a continuously "hyper" stage, constantly looking for "action," and therefore do not make good house pets or companions for the average family.
* (3)*The Shiloh Shepherd™* was bred to preserve the original qualities everyone loved so much in the old style German Shepherd. Although the dogs were much too big and not angulated enough to please the Show Fancy, they nevertheless still retained the intelligence and working ability of the Schutzhund dog, and many were trained for police work and personal protection. They also proved themselves to be excellent at search and rescue, as well as herding. The Shilohs were bred mainly for sound hips, temperament, and like their "Flock Guardian" ancestors, very large size." from Introduction to the Shiloh Shepherd by Tina Barber

Introduction to the Shiloh Shepherd

And then there is her kennel's home page:
_*"Breeding Better Shepherds Since 1962

**Dedicated to preserving the exceptional qualities of the *_​ _*OLD STYLE German Shepherd Dogs*_"New Zion Shiloh Shepherds: The home of the Original Shiloh Shepherd

_"Dedicated to preserving the exceptional qualities
Of the OLD STYLE German Shepherd Dogs_ & _ 
 the future welfare of our Shiloh Shepherds
 
__Breeding Better Shepherds
 Since 1962_" ISSR Shiloh Shepherds developed at the original Shiloh Shepherd kennel by Tina Barber in 1962

I'm not saying people should or shouldn't get Shilohs. Just that there is a lot of hype about the breed that you may or may not find to be true. I'm not sure if they are right for people wanting larger, laid back GSDs. Some of them are. Some of them are not. They weren't right for my friend and that is sort what of drew her to them - they were big, fluffy, supposedly "old style" GSDs that were supposed to have outstanding companion dog temperaments. There are obviously a lot of people out there for who Shilohs are right for. The key is to research, meet the breed/breeders and realistically consider if the breed is what you are looking for or not.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

The Shiloh's are nice looking and I love big dogs so if I thought I could get a healthy one with a good temperament I probably would. (but I don't, so I won't!)

The name annoys me, I'd like to see them drop the "shepherd" and just call them Shiloh's. It might help to clarify that they aren't big GSD's.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

What is the difference between a King and a Shiloh anyway? They seem like the same breed to me.

I wouldn't mind owning one, big dogs are cool. But if I want a German Shepherd, I will get a German Shepherd.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Sorry just wanted to clarify, when I referred to "oversized" I meant the breeds who breed for the "old fashioned" (their term not mine) GSD type which is generally larger than standard and also little angulation.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> What is the difference between a King and a Shiloh anyway? They seem like the same breed to me.
> 
> I wouldn't mind owning one, big dogs are cool. But if I want a German Shepherd, I will get a German Shepherd.


 Definitely not the same breed, although there may have been some Shiloh used to create them. They have a separate gene pool and standard.

*"The King Shepherd breed can fit several of the definitions above as a "rare breed". The King Shepherd breed of dog was developed with the vision of a large sized or "king-sized" German Shepherd, with differences in temperament, conformation and of course size, as compared to the German Shepherd. It is no surprise that German Shepherd is the main ingredient in the King Shepherd. In fact one of the first rare breed organizations that recognized the breed included among its acceptable definitions on how an F1 Generation King Shepherd could be produced was by "breeding a King to a German Shepherd; breeding a King to a Shiloh Shepherd (another "rare breed" which is highly influenced by the German Shepherd); and breeding a German Shepherd to a Shiloh Shepherd". Originally the King Shepherd was indeed produced by selective breedings of specific bloodlines of German Shepherd dogs that deviated from the AKC Ideal German Shepherd Standard of the Breed. Later on in the years, the American King Shepherd Club, Inc. (AKSC) has reformed the King Shepherd Standard of the breed and introduced other breeds, to try to strengthen the King Shepherd breed as well as to build upon the characteristics that make the King different from the AKC Standard of the German Shepherd."*

Welcome to The Amercian King Shepherd Club Website



Whiteshepherds said:


> The name annoys me, I'd like to see them drop the "shepherd" and just call them Shiloh's. It might help to clarify that they aren't big GSD's.


 The name Shepherd isn't solely used for GSDs. Just off the top of my head there are Australian Shepherds, Belgian Shepherds, Pyrenean Shepherds, Picardy Shepherds, Anatolian Shepherds and Dutch Shepherds. Although for many of them, including GSDs those are just the Americanized breed names anyway and they are called something else in their country of origin.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for posting that video!

The participants (humans and dogs!) seem to really enjoy their sport and at the end... biergarten sehr gut! 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm not seeing the 'Old Fashioned' GSD thing...
> 
> This is a REALLY cool video from 1936 in Germany of a Sch club training. Look at the GSD's and see if they look like the Shiloh's.
> 
> YouTube - Schutzhund in Germany 1936


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

After reading the posts in this tread I get the impression that 98% of those who are "educating" everyone else about Shiloh Shepherds . . . . heve never even seen one in person much less owned one. 

I'm not a brand man. I don't buy my tools because of the color of the paint. I'm a sawyer and logger and woodworker by trade and run two online businesses. Most of my fellow woodworkers are brand loyal. If the first tool they bought was a DeWalt then that's what they buy until they're planted. That's silly. The best tool in each category does not have the same brand on it. You should buy the best tool for the job, and you should do plenty of research to find out who is making the best tool in that category at the time. 

It's the same with breeds and dogs within those breeds. Just because we adopted two Shiloh's does not mean I'm going to defend the entire breed. But most of what I have read in this thread is horse feathers based on my limited experience. there are good Shiloh's and bad Shiloh owners but there are no bad Shilohs. Nor are there any bad GSD just bad owners in their past.

To categorize the entire breed of Shilohs as lazy couch potatoes is the same as putting a sign on your forehead that says:

_"My brain is currently on vacation. Please do not ask me for an informed, intelligent opinion as I am incapable of critical thinking at this time."_ 

Using that kind of reasoning one might as well deduce that since all GSD have two eyes, four legs and a tail, anything that has two eyes four legs and a tail is a GSD. 

My advice is to fit the dog to the need and the owner. If the owner needs a lazy couch potato, get a human companion. Most of them these days are grossly obese and brain dead. 




.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> After reading the posts in this tread I get the impression that 98% of those who are "educating" everyone else about Shiloh Shepherds . . . . heve never even seen one in person much less owned one.
> 
> I'm not a brand man. I don't buy my tools because of the color of the paint. I'm a sawyer and logger and woodworker by trade and run two online businesses. Most of my fellow woodworkers are brand loyal. If the first tool they bought was a DeWalt then that's what they buy until they're planted. That's silly. The best tool in each category does not have the same brand on it. You should buy the best tool for the job, and you should do plenty of research to find out who is making the best tool in that category at the time.
> 
> ...


Because thats not what a German Shepherd is. That is what Shiloh's are. Have you read the descriptions for Shiloh's? They are calling Shiloh's "the old German Shepherd Dog" when it really isn't. The GSD was not supposed to be a giant oversized dog.

If you want a oversized dog get a Great Dane. GSDs are a medium breed, not a large breed.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Because thats not what a German Shepherd is. That is what Shiloh's are. Have you read the descriptions for Shiloh's? They are calling Shiloh's "the old German Shepherd Dog" when it really isn't. The GSD was not supposed to be a giant oversized dog.
> 
> If you want a oversized dog get a Great Dane. GSDs are a medium breed, not a large breed.


They don't have any idea about the kind of human ignorance you illustrate so well. That's why they don't discriminate - we are all stupid humans in their eyes. Ruff ruff.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> They don't have any idea about the kind of human ignorance you illustrate so well. That's why they don't discriminate - we are all stupid humans in their eyes. Ruff ruff.


Well aren't you a bundle of joy?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

opcorn:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kings, shilohs, what I really want to know is where do they finish up dog training with a trip to the beer garden? Great video.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> They don't have any idea about the kind of human ignorance you illustrate so well. That's why they don't discriminate - we are all stupid humans in their eyes. Ruff ruff.


Its not ignorance, its fact, that you do not want to see.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Actually I wouldn't say its fact, cause its not. What I have found is that the shiloh people tend to be split up. There are those who see it as the oversized GSD, and those who don't want to be considered a GSD at all except maybe in the foundation.

Alot of people do not believe in the foundation breeder and her beliefs on it.

It would help if people stopped considering them GSDs, they are Shilohs, not GSDs. Maybe people should educate on that instead of sticking to the "they are just oversized GSDs and GSDs shouldn't be that big" bit.

(just speaking in general)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> Kings, shilohs, what I really want to know is where do they finish up dog training with a trip to the beer garden? Great video.


Wait, I thought that was part of the training. You mean I've been doing it wrong this whole time?!:headbang:


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

My point (attempted point but I did a terrible job) is that individual dogs are just that, and don't necessarily exhibit the traits usually inherent in their breed. But then generally I'd also submit that Shiloh's are different than GSDs in many ways. yes they do appear to be GSDs to the lay person but they are generally different enough that they should be considered Shiloh's not over-sized GSDs. 

And although I feel this way, I also think some people place too much emphasis on it. Maybe that's because I have so little actual knowledge about dogs in general other than what I have learned on my own having owned dogs all my life as a child and as an adult. Maybe the biggest reason I don't consider it to be such an all-important thing to dissect into tiny little bits is because I've had very little exposure to people who know so much - and that's not sarcasm.

Don't get me wrong I'm appreciative of those of you who have such knowledge, but sometimes too much knowledge gets in the way of reason and sanity. Too little can also and I have been guilty of both at times in various other categories. I do apologize to you Jessie for my rather rude reply. No treats for me for 24 hours. 








.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> My point (attempted point but I did a terrible job) is that individual dogs are just that, and don't necessarily exhibit the traits usually inherent in their breed.


What I've noticed, for the most part, is that most dogs do contend to the characteristics of their breed. Our lab has a lot of typical lab characteristics. She obviously has a lot of her own individual characteristics as well. Same with our Frenchie, our mini schnauzer, and my Pom. That is one reason why people like purebreds. They can read about the kind of dog they're getting. They can kind of see what they're going to get. With a mixed breed, it's hit and miss. If you get a purebred, you're more likely to get a dog with the characteristics of that breed. Are there oddballs? Yes. Obviously every dog is an individual.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> My point (attempted point but I did a terrible job) is that individual dogs are just that, and don't necessarily exhibit the traits usually inherent in their breed. But then generally I'd also submit that Shiloh's are different than GSDs in many ways. yes they do appear to be GSDs to the lay person but they are generally different enough that they should be considered Shiloh's not over-sized GSDs.
> 
> And although I feel this way, I also think some people place too much emphasis on it. Maybe that's because I have so little actual knowledge about dogs in general other than what I have learned on my own having owned dogs all my life as a child and as an adult. Maybe the biggest reason I don't consider it to be such an all-important thing to dissect into tiny little bits is because I've had very little exposure to people who know so much - and that's not sarcasm.
> 
> ...


I just don't like them being called GSDs when they aren't. They are just oversized dogs and shouldn't be considered a form of GSD or what the GSD used to be because the original GSD didn't look like that.

The only way I would get a Shiloh is through a rescue, or shelter. And people shouldn't be breeding GSDs to be oversized anyways. They are pretty. I love big dogs. If I want a German Shepherd I will get a German Shepherd.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Emoore said:


> Wait, I thought that was part of the training. You mean I've been doing it wrong this whole time?!:headbang:


Uhm, you're from Texas. Can you still drive around there with a beer?

We, some of us sometimes stop at a fast food joint after training. But I am sure it is not the same. Once we went to a open restaurant with the dogs, that was kind of like it, but since the legal limit here is so rediculously low, we just cannot drink at ALL and drive home. 

So, no drinking after class.

My understanding is that in Germany, after these training sessions, the trip to the beer garden is where a lot of the the information about different dogs and different lines is discussed. I think a GSD training group would be awesome. But here we are lucky if there is even one other GSD in our classes. So it really does not lend itself to that kind of comraderie. Perhaps schutzhund clubs do though.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> Uhm, you're from Texas. Can you still drive around there with a beer?


No, I usually let Rocky drive home when I've had too many.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Of all the great stuff I have taught my perfect dogs, I have yet to teach any of them to drive. 

One day, I had Dubya and Arwen and their daughters, Babs and Jenna in my Neon and I stopped for something at my parents, and I came out, Dubya had move to the driver's seat, Arwen was on the passenger's seat, and the girls were both sittting nicely on their seats in the back. It looked like the perfect family of four. Of course no camera anywhere in sight when you need one. 

I finally decided all doggies must remain crated in my vehicle, when I left the AC and Car running when I had Jenna in there and I was training one of the others. That bitch locked me out!!! I had to go into the sherriff's department with Babs and ask them to call my dad. 

Worse yet, my mom thought the deputy was a salesman, and she kept HANGING UP ON HIM!!! 

Finally my dad took over going to ring the guy's ear drum and listened long enough to get the story of life.

Kind of embarrassing all around, so now they must stay in their crates in the car.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Since many of us agree that breeding for larger size is a bad idea, mostly because it falls outside the breed standard, what do you guys think about breeding for health, if that would also mean the dog falls outside the breed standard?

I just read an interesting article on genetics and trait inheritance in Bark magazine. The article is saying that you could improve the health of a given breed (for instance the high rate of cancer in golden retrievers) but it could result in a healthier dog that no longer falls within the breed standard for whatever reason. Suppose we could breed out HD in GSD, but suddenly we have more long coats and white spotting (just an example, I'm not a geneticist so I don't know how it would play out)? 

Would it be worth it to have a healthier breed, even though the "new" GSD is not what the creators of the breed desired as far as looks?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Would it be worth it to have a healthier breed, even though the "new" GSD is not what the creators of the breed desired as far as looks?


Would it still be a German Shepherd?

When you breed for any one trait, others suffer for the lack of attention. Whether it be a particular color, a particular drive, a particular look, or a particular health trait. So temperament might also suffer, not just looks. Would that be acceptable if you could guarantee no hip dysplasia?

Breeding is an art. Breeders, the good ones anyway, try to balance health, temperament, and structure in every breeding. It is not easy, and sometimes a breeding doesn't work out quite the way the breeder hoped. The more research done, the less likely something totally unexpected will crop up. But stuff happens.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree, breeding is most definitely an art form, and also involves a lot of luck. It's not as though a breeder can dictate which genes from each dog go where.

That is a fascinating question though, by working to eliminate a certain disease or structural weakness in a breed, if you change the temperament of looks of the animal, is it still a _____ breed of dog? I guess most people would say no.

But what is better? The GSD breed standard as it is now? Or perhaps a little bit different but minus the heath issues. Or is the perfect GSD (let us assume this is possible to breed for) free of all the associated problems GSDs seem to have? Are there breeders out there that can make a perfect dog?

I'm not trying to argue on side or the other, I'm just tossing out hypothetical questions here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Let's say that someone finds that breeding dogs to a dog with a happy tail, results in 50% happy tails in offspring, and zero incidents of SIBO, EPI, MegaE, Hemangiosarcoma, Osteosarcoma, etc, in the dogs with the happy tails, and a significantly reduced rate of those things with resultant dogs with normal tails, than average GSDs. 

So people start breeding happy tails all over. And it holds true for these diseases. 

But a few years down the line, we find an increase of GSDs dying from heart problems, or bloat, and these dogs seem to all have at least one happy tail ancestor in their three generation pedigree. 

It is hard to say. Breeding is something where we are making decisions all the time to try to improve health and to maintain the breed standard. I have heard of mixing in another breed and then breeding true to eliminate problems/improve health -- not in GSDs. I am neither for or against that.


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