# Help needed with Pedigree



## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

Hi! I've been lurking on this forum for a long time :grin2:

I am looking to purchase a new GSWL puppy for IPO and I am very excited but also have become very confused :help: I thought I had my pup litter picked out but from speaking with some very knowledgeable people I now have more questions before I make a final decision. It is concerning inbreeding and outcrossing... I can't seem to make heads or tales from it. I have a copy of the pedigree if that would help but I am not sure if I should post it here or if someone would be willing to take a look at it via email?

Thank you all in advance! I promised to send the contract in today :surprise:

Linda


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Linda and Welcome!

If you have doubts about the in-breeding and out-crossing, do not send in the contract.

This is a life long commitment and you need to be FULLY informed from knowledgeable people before committing. There are many here who can help you.

There was just a thread about this recently.

Moms :smile2:


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Livinthegoodlife said:


> Hi! I've been lurking on this forum for a long time :grin2:
> 
> I am looking to purchase a new GSWL puppy for IPO and I am very excited but also have become very confused :help: I thought I had my pup litter picked out but from speaking with some very knowledgeable people I now have more questions before I make a final decision. It is concerning inbreeding and outcrossing... I can't seem to make heads or tales from it. I have a copy of the pedigree if that would help but I am not sure if I should post it here or if someone would be willing to take a look at it via email?
> 
> ...


Post it up. Its always interesting to look at. Have you spoken with the breeder about your concerns?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd like to see it too. There is a well known breeder doing some inbreeding and not getting flack for it. 
Wonder if it is who I think it is?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

new GSWL puppy

what is this? Do you mean West German Show line?


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> Post it up. Its always interesting to look at. Have you spoken with the breeder about your concerns?


Actually, I have not spoken with them about my concerns because it actually just dawned on me that this is an inbreed litter. I just love the sire and dam. I have watched all the videos of them at their trials, etc. I did so much research I don't know how I overlooked this basic fact! I just read so many posts and articles about inbreeding, line breeding, cross breeding with all different opinions I am now so confused. 


There is a well known breeder doing some inbreeding and not getting flack for it. 

Oh gosh, I am not trying to get this breeder slammed  

I will attach the pedigree.

Thanks!
Linda

** I removed the pedigrees. Please send the images to people in private so this thread doesn't turn into bashing the breeder. Thank you. ADMIN**


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

carmspack said:


> new GSWL puppy
> 
> what is this? Do you mean West German Show line?


No, working line. Sorry if that is not the abbreviation.


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## Spetzio (Oct 8, 2015)

carmspack said:


> new GSWL puppy
> 
> what is this? Do you mean West German Show line?


Possible German Shepherd Working Line?

Best guess, at least. Could be entirely wrong though!


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

Spetzio said:


> Possible German Shepherd Working Line?
> 
> Best guess, at least. Could be entirely wrong though!


Yes :grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

way too tight - way way too tight

do you HAVE to buy this puppy to be able to train in the club you want to go to??????

If you are being pressured to buy - back off.....think about it, examine your options. Be cautious



Lee


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> way too tight - way way too tight
> 
> do you HAVE to buy this puppy to be able to train in the club you want to go to??????
> 
> ...


Hi Lee,

No, I do not need to have this puppy to train with the club I will be going to. I just found this breeder through some research, looked up her and her dogs and was very impressed with the sire. I watched all his videos and fell in love. Then I realized the inbreeding...


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> way too tight - way way too tight
> 
> do you HAVE to buy this puppy to be able to train in the club you want to go to??????
> 
> ...


Lee, When you say way too tight, do you mean because of them having the same sire and dam. and them having the same dam? Is that inbreeding or line breeding? Can anyone point me to a good website with a clear explanation? Thank you!


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Try reading this article to see if it will help clarify: https://davidcavill.wordpress.com/a-beginners-guide-to-inbreeding-and-line-breeding/

For me, who is a total pedigree newbie, I would stay clear of this breeding. If you see a name popping up twice (ie. it is in both paternal and maternal lines), you start playing with some very, very hot fire IMO.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Is this the combination of the future pup?

the way you posted the attached pedigrees make it seem as if the future pup is a breeding
of some sire and some dam that are EACH -- which are already out of the same mother.

that could be an error 

that would drastically effect some answers

But even so there are things to look at even if it is just 

instead of trying to figure out the "mathematics" of the pedigree get more concerned and involved in understanding WHAT and WHY those animals are.

if you want a beginner to sport , liveable , balanced , companion --- this may not be the litter for you.

there is a lot in that background that is specifically bred for extreme drive for sport .


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

carmspack said:


> Is this the combination of the future pup?
> 
> the way you posted the attached pedigrees make it seem as if the future pup is a breeding
> of some sire and some dam that are EACH -- which are already out of the same mother.
> ...



Yes, it is . I posted 2 pedigrees, I think one was a 3 generation and 1 a 5 generation.

Here is the info regarding why they choose to do this breeding;

The “proud parents” are . Both and are full outcrosses who share a common female x-tail line and very different paternal lines. Both come from a fabulous female X tail line that has produced super phenotype. This breeding is a line-breeding that comes back to that female x tail line. I am very excited to not only have a puppy from , but to be able to tighten up my outcrossed lines with a SUPER female x-line that has produced exceptionally well for me so far. I am VERY excited about this litter, as not only is it what I want to do genotypically (double up on that female x line), but also phenotypically these two dogs complement each other very well. 


I have had show line shepherds all my life so I am not new to the breed but I am new to trying to find a working line shepherd. The most important thing for me is to have a balanced companion with a med-high, or possibly high drive pup for IPO work. I will also be doing private training so this will be more than just a "hobby", not that I want a national title but I would like to be able to progess in the sport. I know these are all subjective terms so I shall elaborate... 

I have one son in college and one leaving for college in the summer so I will have time to dedicate to train. My husband and I both work from home so he will not be left alone that often. 


Does anyone else have any suggestions for another breeder recommendation that would be a good match for me? Preferably in the Northeast but I am willing to travel if it is the right fit. I am looking to purchase sooner than later because I want the summer to be able to start socialization and more importantly my kids will be home 

Thank you for any help!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you should talk to the breeder. It's to set type. The F litter () was fantastic. littermate is my dog's grandsire. The breeder knows her dogs. If you are not comfortable with this litter, she would certainly help you find another breeder in the area.

This is a good breeder and a good person. She won't sell you something you don't want and she will support you if you buy a puppy.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

For a newbie to working lines, I would never recommend something this tightly inbred. Yes people do it, and some have success, but the biggest reason to avoid it is, Even though you may get something fantastic, you have a huge risk of getting some really bad, whether temperament, health issues, etc. If a breeder is willing to do that kind of a breeding, that is their risk, but puppies from that type of a breeding should be placed into experienced working homes, where they can be followed and monitored. 

Take your time to look around and research breeders and pedigrees. I have heard that Pia Blackwell has a nice litter that might be worth considering.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have removed the pedigrees and links for the pedigrees and the dog's names since the breeder is not here to discuss the breeding. If you want to discuss this in a general way about inbreeding than that is fine, but leave the exact names in private.

ADMIN Lisa


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lhczth said:


> I have removed the pedigrees and links for the pedigrees and the dog's names since the breeder is not here to discuss the breeding. If you want to discuss this in a general way about inbreeding than that is fine, but leave the exact names in private.
> 
> ADMIN Lisa


Doesn't that defeat the purpose of allowing those that are interested in learning? It was explained by another member about setting type.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

find a litter that will be better suited to your level of experience 

this is an extreme sport breeding - type set by breeding on the Fanta female


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> find a litter that will be better suited to your level of experience
> 
> this is an extreme sport breeding - type set by breeding on the Fanta female


Because the dam is used twice, the probability of getting dogs similar to her is higher? How much does it increase with how closely related the dogs are? 
When setting a type, is is this the common way to do it? Or is it spread out a little more evenly? 
Sorry, just trying to learn more...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the next closest would be breeding her offspring to herself , mother - son .

in another thread I believe there was a father - daughter breeding ? (incest in pedigree thread?)

in this pedigree there were two offspring of the Fanta female , a son , a daughter which were
being merged.

that's the mathematical equation of things.

things to question are --- do you want to concentrate what the female has to offer?

again you have to really know and understand the female and her ancestry and what traits were 
being promoted and then intensified .

a representative that has been balanced all through its background will more or less ,maintain the balance

when a pedigree starts having a drift through selection for some singular trait , then inbreeding on that trait will crowd out diversity and take longer to swing the seminal idea of that pedigree to a more central or balanced pedigree

simplistic explanation -- 
if I have a bucket of water which has ideal temperature and I continue to keep adding water within degrees of that ideal , hotter , colder , in the end I have a bucket of water that is close to that ideal temperature.

it is easy to adjust the temperature either way if I choose.

starting with that same bucket of water , if I like the "heat" and with each addition I put in warmer, then hotter , water the end result will be hot water .

then it depends if you need or intended this water to be this hot before you can use it for your purpose

it will take longer to adjust the temperature to bring it to the ideal , bearable , useful temperature .

what you have to know then is to understand the female - thoroughly

and then you have to really know what she (or he if we are talking about inbreeding on a male) has produced previously.

look at ALL her offspring . Because if she has produced XXXXXXX then the changes of her producing a stronger
version of this XXXXXXXX , whatever quality, will be amplified.

that goes for good or bad . And that is what you have to know.

in this particular breeding can the OP get this 

"The most important thing for me is to have a balanced companion with a med-high, or possibly high drive pup for IPO work. " ?

you would have to start with "that" .

In my opinion this is extreme sport , intensifying extreme sport, which is fine if that is what you want.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

?? Good explanation


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> the next closest would be breeding her offspring to herself , mother - son .
> 
> in another thread I believe there was a father - daughter breeding ? (incest in pedigree thread?)
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time and explaining that out completely.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

what Jax said...think it is worth talking to the breeder especially if you liked the sire and dam


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

carmspack said:


> the next closest would be breeding her offspring to herself , mother - son .
> 
> in another thread I believe there was a father - daughter breeding ? (incest in pedigree thread?)
> 
> ...




Thank you SO much for this explanation! This really helped. But, that leads me to another question. You wrote, 


"things to question are --- do you want to concentrate what the female has to offer?

again you have to really know and understand the female and her ancestry and what traits were 
being promoted and then intensified."


Is there any way for me to go about researching that? Everyone that has responded has been so helpful and knowledgeable. Do you just know all these dogs or is by their show ratings? Some type of sorcery involved??? :grin2::grin2::rofl:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cloudpump said:


> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of allowing those that are interested in learning? It was explained by another member about setting type.


The question can be asked and a discussion can take place without the exact names of the dogs. The breeder is not on this site and shouldn't have his/her breeding decisions evaluated and discussed without her input. We would rather not have to come through and delete all of this when the breeder shows up and asks it to be removed (not that he/she will do that, but it has happened before). It is a worthy topic otherwise.

ADMIN


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lhczth said:


> The question can be asked and a discussion can take place without the exact names of the dogs. The breeder is not on this site and shouldn't have his/her breeding decisions evaluated and discussed without her input. We would rather not have to come through and delete all of this when the breeder shows up and asks it to be removed (not that he/she will do that, but it has happened before). It is a worthy topic otherwise.
> 
> ADMIN


Not being sarcastic. Honest question. So if she already owned a puppy from the breeder, she could post the pedigree? Or if the pedigree makes you ask a question, it shouldn't be posted? Would this similar thread be acceptable? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/673482-thoughts-match.html
Just curious for future reference. 
I'm here just trying to learn.


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## Livinthegoodlife (Mar 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> Not being sarcastic. Honest question. So if she already owned a puppy from the breeder, she could post the pedigree? Or if the pedigree makes you ask a question, it shouldn't be posted? Would this similar thread be acceptable? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/673482-thoughts-match.html
> Just curious for future reference.
> I'm here just trying to learn.



Good question, I am here to learn as well. This is a 12-14 year commitment and I am trying to gain all the knowledge that I possibly can before I make a final decision. In my original post I stated that I really like the breeder and both the sire and dam. My concern was that they were half brother/sister. I didn't name the breeder or post the pedigree until I asked if that was appropriate. I would not have learned any of the insightful information that I did without posting the pedigree and I don't think the replies were either negative or positive about the breeder. Just opinions. Opinions that lead me to further research that I would not have done had I not posted the pedigree in the first place. 

I clicked on the link cloudpump posted and that pedigree was posted and discussed in length. So are many other pedigrees in many other threads. I am not sure why this one is any different unless there is a specific reason?

Thank you to all who have replied! I have learned so much but now I know just how much more I need to know 
:grin2:


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