# Are we doomed?



## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Another thread got me to thinking about Maiyas aggression issues with other dogs. 

I've made little progress over the past year. 

At home she is doing much better with my other female shepherd although she did pierce my beagle's ear the other day when she jumped on him for no reason. That was the first incident we have had with her in months. 

However, when we go out for a walk when she sees another dog she goes psychotic! I mean teeth baring, hackles raised, lunging, crazy growling and barking, slobbering and just plain crazy! NOTHING brings her back. The vet has witnessed this in his office and asked......"Dear God! Is she always like that with other dogs?" 

It's really embarrassing and dangerous because people don't realize that she's serious and it's not just a bluff. I have ZERO doubt in my mind that she would bite another dog. She has proved this to me already. 

I've contacted several GSD trainers and they want nothing to do with her. That's scary! 

She bit my son in one of her aggressive rampages but then again he tried to pull her and my other Shepherd apart and he is 11 years old! I TOLD him a million times not to stay FAR back if they get into it and he didn't listen. 

She is not aggressive towards people although she does bark at them. However, strangers can walk right up to her with no problem.

Don't know her history. 2 years old when we adopted her. She's 3 now. She is missing 1/4 of her right ear and it was like that when we adopted her. I can only guess that is a result of a dog fight. She lived with another dog (a lab) prior to coming here. 

I'm really scared to take her out because I'm afraid she is going to hurt someones dog. Of course I keep her on a leash and away from other dogs, but you know the ones that come running up to you with their owners in tow wanting to play. 

I wish I had a video to show how psycho she is. I have seen dog aggressive dogs and they don't even compare to this. 

Anyone have experience with a dog like her?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

There was a dog like this in a neighborhood I lived in, a Bernese Mt. Dog. His owner had done a consultation with Patricia McConnell and she had advised a counter-conditioning program. By the time I met the woman the dog would automatically look at her when he saw another dog. 

So here are my suggestions:

Buy a wire basket muzzle for her so that you don't have to worry about her hurting another dog. http://www.fordogtrainers.com/

Buy the "Click to Calm" book and work on counter-conditioning her. It will take time but it is possible.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Feisty Fido is the very best book for this situation-- an easy guide that describes a truly workable program for helping your dog TRULY improve! I also have Click to Calm. Feisty Fido is the first I would reccomend-- it has helped HUGELY with Grimm! He flips out because he wants to initiate a party with the other dog (he is überplayful, social-- but frustrated at not being able to start the party rollin') Anyway, http://www.dogwise.com will have Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnel. The program in the book takes months... but after just a few weeks, you REALLY see an enormous improvement already! Incidentally, I hate Haltis, have always hated them-- but a Halti did save this situation for Grimm. It made the Feisty Fido work go faster and much easier, too!


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## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

A lady at my old SchH club had a doberman with this problem. 

She wasn't interested in SchH per se, she went looking for help with the dog aggression. She herself was a pet dog trainer and she was embarrassed and horrified that she could not control her dog nor teach him to quit it.

She got the dog to accompany her on hikes in the forest here. Well, he was trying to kill every dog they passed, and it isn't uncommon to find dogs off lead up in the forest. 

What they ended up doing was teaching the dog to focus on the handler. When a dog approached, the dog was to focus on her and give no attention to the other dog. 

In the end, they ended up using electric to teach him to stay focussed on the handler and they nailed him with it hard whenever he took attention off of her and on to another dog.

She never got to the point where she could take the electric off of him, he always had to have it on.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I am struggling with this issue, too. My 16 month old neutered male nailed me in the thigh in a redirected aggression response right after he had attacked another dog. My dog is also leash aggressive.
I am working with a trainer, hoping to get a decent handle on this behavior. 
The main thing we are working on is his focus. If he is focused on me when around another dog, he won't have the mental room to react to the other dog. 
It is slow work. We are in the beginning stages so far. Having a trainer that is familiar with me and my dog has helped a great deal. He sees things that I miss and he keeps me on track and positive.
My advice is to keep looking for a trainer that will work with you in a manner you are comfortable with. When you're working with your dog, be sure to start in an area where she is comfortable and non-reactive to other dogs. If you find her reactive when you're 30 yards from another dog, start working with her at a 40 yard distance. There should be some area of town where the other dogs are reliably on leash? If not, perhaps you could get together with some dog owning friends or family and have them act as props at the safe distance?
Good luck! This is a very frustrating behavior.
Sheilah


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

An E-collar can work very well to help correct this if you work with the right trainer. I rescued a 1 1/2 yr old male GSD alittle over a year ago. With in 3 months I had multiple dog fights and gotten bit. He gave my female 40 stitches. With the E-collar and alot of hard work and training he is now fine with other dogs. He is actually a demo dog for the training company I work for. He also goes to a ton of events, including the Super Pet Expo and was wonderful


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: lish91883An E-collar can work very well to help correct this if you work with the right trainer.


I think it's very, very dangerous to use a shock collar with aggression issues. As many times as they work, there are many more times when they exascerbate the problem and make it worse.

Others have suggested <u> Click to Calm</u> or <u> Feisty Fido</u>, either of these are great resources. They are similar in that they use positive associations with the presence of another dog to desensitize and counter-condition, but have distinctively different approaches. 

I have yet to meet anyone who has read either of those resources, and tried the techniques, that then decides that a shock collar is a preferable method. However, I know many people who have previously used the shock collar and then converted to desensitization and counter-conditioning. 

On a personal level, I simply have a problem with shocking my dog because she's behaving badly. I think it would permanently destroy the relationship I've worked hard to build over the past 6 years.



> Quote: I am working with a trainer, hoping to get a decent handle on this behavior.


Just make sure your trainer is a positive trainer and not resorting to aversives, such as shock collars, "hanging" the dog, etc.


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

Here is a link that may be helpful:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/64


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks so much for all the advice and links!


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## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

With the Dobie I mentioned, the ecollar was used to train the dog focus on the handler long before another dog was brought into the picture as a distraction where aggression might become an issue.

The collar was only used when the dog took focus off the handler for any reason.

I don't know if this would be considered using the ecollar "for aggression issues" since the dog was taught that looking away from the handler (for any reason) was what got him zapped.

This lady in particular was a motivational dog trainer herself. I don't know if she used the clicker, but she was definately into the treats, positive motivation, setting up the dog for a positive experience, etc...These methods were simply not effective when there was another dog present. He needed more than a hot dog (or, I suppose a click) to get him to stay focussed on the handler.

The other dogs were brought in months after the dog had learned the focus with the ecollar. They used the method described, starting with a dog far in the distance and working very slowly over long periods of time until the dog was keeping handler focus with a dog closer.

It wasn't that they started out with 2 dogs and when a fight broke out they zapped the Dobie, no.

Not sure I explained how they used the ecollar clearly the first time around.

I imagine using the ecollar directly for aggression can fire a dog up even more, so I can see why it would be an ineffective tool used that way.

I think it is so important to try the least invasive procedures first and then move up to stronger ones if they are not producing the desired results. 

I agree that electric is an extreme measure that shouldn't be taken lightly and shouldn't be used by those who don't know how to use it correctly...which is most of us.

Still, I definately think it is more humane in a very hard dog who would need very strong pinch collar corrections to get a response. A well-timed e-collar correction is way better in this case, imho.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

I can't use things that wrap around her neck or pull on it because it irritates her esophagus. Yes, it is so big you can actually feel and see it hanging down if you know what your looking for. Most people just think she just has a big neck but that's not the case. 

I have to walk her with a head harness or if there's anything else that doesn't go around her throat. 

I can't give her treats for good behavior unless someone can come up with something she can enjoy that she doesn't have to swallow. I trained my other GSD with the reward of toys instead of treats because of her Inflammatory Bowel Disease, but Maiya is not interested in toys. 

Just some more info on what I can and can't do with her.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

To each their own Sue. But I can tell you that it works. I've worked not only with my dog who was aggressive, but many others. And it ranges from dog aggression to people aggression. I've had a hand in saving many dogs, who the e-collar their last chance. To date we've only lost 2. Mostly because there something very mentally wrong with them.

An E-collar could make it worse if not used correctly by a trainer who has knowledge on how to properly use the collar. I would never recommend someone that has never used one to go buy it and try to fix this problem theirselves.

I'm not saying the e-collar is everyone's solution. I can only tell you that it saved Blue. And I can also tell you that my relationship with my dog wasn't damaged. If it weren't for the E-collar I wouldn't even still have Blue and that would have been a shame.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Please, let's not get into another e-collar debate. She can't use an ecollar anyway because it's too heavy for her dog because of the Mega-E. 

The dog I mentioned was trained with the techniques used in Feisty Fido. I'm using that plus some of the techniques from Click to Calm and it's working great.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

mamagoose, just thinking outloud - this is probably an incredibly stupid idea - but how food motivated is she?

i had a cat w/mega-e, so i know the whole liquifying food routine - i'm wondering if you could carry a little container of liquified food, and then let her have it/some as a treat instead of normal treats?

or is she fed through a stomach tube? my thought might be kind of messy, i don't know, just trying to think of a way beyond praise that you could motivate her. that's hard that she's not toy motivated (though i know i was always terrified georgia would knock off a little bit and i'd end up w/a foreign object issue).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I think a good focus command, motivational work, plus "crittering" work with an e-collar would be good here. The point of crittering work is to do it in such a way that the dog cannot associate the stimulation with the other dog launching an attack- it's not like you stim the dog when your dog is going gonzo two feet away from the other dog. On Lou's site, I believe he details that the stim starts when you're quite a distance away from the other animal.

If weight is an issue for health reasons, that's another thing, but I do think an e-collar would be gentler than jerking on a prong or even a buckle collar when she throws a fit.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: mamagooseI can't use things that wrap around her neck or pull on it because it irritates her esophagus. Yes, it is so big you can actually feel and see it hanging down if you know what your looking for. Most people just think she just has a big neck but that's not the case.
> 
> I have to walk her with a head harness or if there's anything else that doesn't go around her throat.
> 
> ...


Do you use a gentle leader now? How is that working? I use the Sense-ation harness and I really love it. It clips in front and gives me a lot more control when I need it. The gentle leader works really great for some dogs though and can help calm them down.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Ok, going to try and answer everyones questions in this post so forgive me if I leave something out.

Maiya is EXTREMELY food motivated but she is fed through a stomach tube. Sometimes I will give her licks of treats or a crumble of food but as far as giving her actual chunks of anything I really shouldn't. She does REALLY like Nylabones though. Maybe a stupid thought but perhaps I could use one of those. LOL. Whether or not she likes them more than she'd like to kill another dog I have no idea. We'd have to see.

I don't know that weight is as big of an issue around her neck as much as the "tugging" is. 

I am using either a Gentle Leader or a Halti right now. I can't remember which one but it doesn't work very well. She tugs on it BADLY and it rubs all the fur off of her muzzle. 
I will definately look into that harness you mentioned!


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Ok this is gross but another thought.

When I feed her I use a couple of wet washcloths to wipe everything off and they usually have a decent amount of food smeared on them by the time it is over. She goes CRAZY for the rags. I always let her lick them before I throw them in the washer. I could carry a food soaked wet rag in my pocket.









Ok, maybe not in my pocket, but somewhere!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

How about cheese in a can, comes out in a foamy, gooey substance? Is that something she can take as a treat? It's lickable and easily dispensed, but yeah, not healthy. 

Or how about natural gelatin flavored with natural beef, chicken, or organ stock? It might be more easily handled, especially if chilled.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Gelatin blocks are a good idea. I know many megaE owners that use them to water the dogs that have problems taking down liquid. I've never tried it with Maiya.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I see liver flavored gelatin in your future... in fun, wiggly liver shapes!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Those are all good ideas: the wet, dirty rag, gellatin or the nylabone. I bet one of them will work, especially if she is food motivated. Rafi is crazy for his Kong. Sometimes on walks he will see another dog but he's just like, "Well, I've got my Kong so I don't even care if you exist!" And it's sort of like a pacifier for him. The trick is to let her know you've got the exciting thing (whatever it is) and then get it out and get her interested before she's out of control. You have to go in slow increments.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMI see liver flavored gelatin in your future... in fun, wiggly liver shapes!












Oh how exciting! 

I'll have my DH taste test it and then get back to everyone.









What?! Of course I'm not going to tell him what it's for!!! I'll tell him it's a new flavor we are trying.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:I'll have my DH taste test it and then get back to everyone.


Videotape this "taste test" and YouTube it!


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThose are all good ideas: the wet, dirty rag, gellatin or the nylabone. I bet one of them will work, especially if she is food motivated. Rafi is crazy for his Kong. Sometimes on walks he will see another dog but he's just like, "Well, I've got my Kong so I don't even care if you exist!" And it's sort of like a pacifier for him. The trick is to let her know you've got the exciting thing (whatever it is) and then get it out and get her interested before she's out of control. You have to go in slow increments.


Annabelle is like that with her toys. She is more obsessed with her toys then food. She'd take her rubber kong ball over a steak anyday. She was easy to train.

Maiya gets out of control FAST! It's like she is just walking and scanning for dogs. I'll have to learn to work quick!

She is much better (better in the sense that she doesn't draw blood) with extremely submissive dogs. My neighbors 90 lb. mutt got in my front yard the other day and Maiya busted through my front glass door (didn't break it but it wasn't locked so when she hit the latch it opened) and jumped on him. Good thing he's such a baby because he just stopped, dropped and rolled. She then just stood over him with the tail up and the ears back, like........"yea, I'm the queen". She doesn't realize that she's only 55 lbs. and that dog could have totally kicked her skinny little butt!!


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## butterfingers (Jun 5, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowBuy the "Click to Calm" book and work on counter-conditioning her.


I agree with this. Gunner has the same problem - very dog aggressive with every dog except my Cocker - and I have been working on clicker training with him and he is doing better. Not phenomenally better, but better to the point where he does not act like a raving lunatic. Good luck!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lish91883An E-collar can work very well to help correct this if you work with the right trainer.





> Originally Posted By: Susan FI think it's very, very dangerous to use a shock collar with aggression issues. As many times as they work, there are many more times when they exascerbate the problem and make it worse.


If you use an Ecollar simply to punish the aggressive behavior you can create problems. Trying to correct aggressiveness by hitting it head-on rarely is successful with any tool. Most aggression is fear-based and you can't punish fear and have it have a good outcome. 

But used properly the Ecollar is a good too for this problem. Here's a protocol that may help with this problem. Http://loucastle.com/critter.htm 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F Others have suggested <u> Click to Calm</u> or <u> Feisty Fido</u>, either of these are great resources. They are similar in that they use positive associations with the presence of another dog to desensitize and counter-condition, but have distinctively different approaches.


Try these methods. I'd give them 6-8 weeks, often they fail. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I have yet to meet anyone who has read either of those resources, and tried the techniques, that then decides that a shock collar is a preferable method.


I'd be willing to bet that all they'd done with the Ecollar for this problem is to hit the button when the dog was aggressive. That can make the problem worse. But my protocol has never failed when the owner did his homework. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F On a personal level, I simply have a problem with shocking my dog because she's behaving badly. I think it would permanently destroy the relationship I've worked hard to build over the past 6 years.


It might. My methods of using the tool actually improves the relationship between the dog and owner. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F Just make sure your trainer is a positive trainer


I'm a "positive trainer." I POSITIVELY get results. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F and not resorting to aversives, such as shock collars, "hanging" the dog, etc.


While I don't hang a dog, there's nothing wrong with aversives used properly.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Kelli_CastroWith the Dobie I mentioned, the ecollar was used to train the dog focus on the handler long before another dog was brought into the picture as a distraction where aggression might become an issue.
> 
> The collar was only used when the dog took focus off the handler for any reason.
> 
> I don't know if this would be considered using the ecollar "for aggression issues" since the dog was taught that looking away from the handler (for any reason) was what got him zapped.


I don't think it would be considered that except by the anti-Ecollar folks. This is doing the same sort of thing that some are advocated, teaching an incompatible behavior, only this time the Ecollar is being used to teach it. 



> Originally Posted By: Kelli_Castro This lady in particular was a motivational dog trainer herself. I don't know if she used the clicker, but she was definately into the treats, positive motivation, setting up the dog for a positive experience, etc...These methods were simply not effective when there was another dog present. He needed more than a hot dog (or, I suppose a click) to get him to stay focussed on the handler.


Not unusual for fearful dogs. Or for dogs that are highly distracted. 



> Originally Posted By: Kelli_Castro The other dogs were brought in months after the dog had learned the focus with the ecollar. They used the method described, starting with a dog far in the distance and working very slowly over long periods of time until the dog was keeping handler focus with a dog closer.


Good use of the Ecollar for teaching another behavior. 



> Originally Posted By: Kelli_Castro It wasn't that they started out with 2 dogs and when a fight broke out they zapped the Dobie, no.


Good! 



> Originally Posted By: Kelli_Castro I think it is so important to try the least invasive procedures first and then move up to stronger ones if they are not producing the desired results.


The problem with this is that those methods often take a lot of time. While they're being used the dog has to be managed and it's best if the dog is not allowed to even see another dog. 



> Originally Posted By: Kelli_Castro I agree that electric is an extreme measure that shouldn't be taken lightly and shouldn't be used by those who don't know how to use it correctly...which is most of us.


I don't agree that it's an "extreme measure" when used properly. My method has it being used at the level where the dog first feels the stim. At the end of the protocol (that I linked to) there's some video of two dogs playing. One of them used to be highly aggressive towards the other. See if you can tell which was the aggressive dog!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lish91883 An E-collar could make it worse if not used correctly by a trainer who has knowledge on how to properly use the collar. I would never recommend someone that has never used one to go buy it and try to fix this problem theirselves.


If someone is able to read and follow simple instructions then I DO recommend the Ecollar. The protocols on my site are written so that someone who's never trained a dog can get a quality Ecollar and use it to train his dog to his complete satisfaction. Many have done just so.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowPlease, let's not get into another e-collar debate. She can't use an ecollar anyway because it's too heavy for her dog because of the Mega-E.


I'm sorry but the Ecollar debate might happen. Just because a dog can't wear the Ecollar around her neck hardly means that she can't be trained with one. I've used the many times, especially on very smaller dogs with the strap placed around the dog's tummy. There's nothing magic about a dog's neck. It works anywhere you can place it. 



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThe dog I mentioned was trained with the techniques used in Feisty Fido. I'm using that plus some of the techniques from Click to Calm and it's working great.


That's great. But as we know sometimes those methods don't work. When they don't, there's the Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowPlease, let's not get into another e-collar debate. She can't use an ecollar anyway because it's too heavy for her dog because of the Mega-E.


I'm sorry but the Ecollar debate might happen. It's not necessary though. Just because a dog can't wear the Ecollar around her neck hardly means that she can't be trained with one. I've used them many times, especially on very smaller dogs with the strap placed around the dog's tummy. There's nothing magic about a dog's neck. It works anywhere you can place it. 



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThe dog I mentioned was trained with the techniques used in Feisty Fido. I'm using that plus some of the techniques from Click to Calm and it's working great.


That's great. But as we know sometimes those methods don't work. When they don't, there's the Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mamagoose I don't know that weight is as big of an issue around her neck as much as the "tugging" is.


If this is the case then the Ecollar COULD be placed around the dog's neck. You don't hook the leash into it when using my crittering protocol. 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose I am using either a Gentle Leader or a Halti right now.


You can't use either of these with the crittering protocol.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Ha! I do not know a whole lot about dog training as I am still learning. 

However, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that Ecollar's are a huge subject of controversy in the dog world?









I don't know anything about them other than what they are. Can you guys fill me in without a thread war (looks doubtful lol)?


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowPlease, let's not get into another e-collar debate. She can't use an ecollar anyway because it's too heavy for her dog because of the Mega-E.
> ...


What I think Lou means is that everyone lets him hijack the thread and agrees that the only solution to every problem with a dog is to shock it, then there won't be a debate.

The fact of the matter is that there are at least two distinct schools of thought ... one is shocking the dog (Lou Castle method) and one is trying to shape the dog's responses with non-violent means (Ian Dunbar/Patricia McConnell/Karen Pryor/Trish King/Suzanne Clothier/Ken Ramirez/Steve White). 

Quite frankly, I choose to align with a cadre of PhD animal behaviorists, psychologists and animal trainers who have worked successfully with species that can't be shocked (dolphins, whales, hyenas) than one retired cop whose sole and exclusive methodology is a shock collar.


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: mamagoose I am using either a Gentle Leader or a Halti right now.
> ...


Why not? 

I would be very hesitant to put electrodes onto the neck of a Mega-E dog. They already have enough problems with the esophagus that I would be afraid that introducing an electrical pulse, which causes an involuntary muscular contraction, could be very damaging. 

And before you argue that it doesn't, it has to. Unless there is a muscular contraction, there is no feeling. That is what the dog's reacting to with a shock collar ... an electrical current that causes a muscular contraction. 

Lou, have you checked this with a veterinarian that has experience with Mega-E dogs?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowPlease, let's not get into another e-collar debate. She can't use an ecollar anyway because it's too heavy for her dog because of the Mega-E.


And I responded


> Quote: I'm sorry but the Ecollar debate might happen. It's not necessary though.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F What I think Lou means is that everyone lets him hijack the thread


Interesting that when I suggest a tool/method that you don't care for that I'm "hijack[ing] the thread. But when people suggest methods that you do like, it's perfectly OK. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F and agrees that the only solution to every problem with a dog is to shock it, then there won't be a debate.


What I mean is that if you don't post misleading statements, myths or misconceptions as fact, emotional attacks, or rudeness; then we won't have to have the debate. Some folks have stated their opinions as to how to treat this and for the most part no one disagreed. But as soon as the Ecollar comes up as a potential solution, some folks have to start the debate all over again. Based on the results shown here, it looks like you're one of them. 

But your statement (just above) is one of the things I'm talking about. It's QUITE misleading. I'm quite clear that the Ecollar is NOT, as you've said "the only solution to every problem." I've NEVER said any such thing. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact of the matter is that there are at least two distinct schools of thought ... one is shocking the dog (Lou Castle method)


Here's a perfect example of the emotional response. Some people love to use the word "shock" because it brings forth people's bad experiences with electricity. You conveniently overlook the fact that electricity also lights the darkness, cooks our food and makes possible this form of communication. 

Ecollar users prefer the word "stim" (short for _"stimulation_) because the sensation is nothing like the shock that one gets from a wall outlet or a charged fence. It's more of a "buzz" or a "tingle" when used properly. The term "shock" was appropriate to yesterday's devices, but the term "stim" or "static" is more descriptive of modern versions of the tools. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F and one is trying to shape the dog's responses with non-violent means


Here's another emotional attack. The Ecollar is NOT violent. In fact it's much more gentle than ANY methods that use a leash and collar for corrections. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F (Ian Dunbar/Patricia McConnell/Karen Pryor/Trish King/Suzanne Clothier/Ken Ramirez/Steve White).


Pretending that I'm the only one on the Ecollar side of the debate is ANOTHER technique used to try and get people away from using Ecollars. None of those folks that Susan F mentions are on this forum. If you'd like me to supply an equally (actually far more) accomplished list of Ecollar trainers I can. But it's really not necessary, is it? After all, name dropping is only to impress people isn't it? 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F Quite frankly, I choose to align with a cadre of PhD animal behaviorists, psychologists and animal trainers who have worked successfully with species that can't be shocked (dolphins, whales, hyenas)


The reason that other methods are used with those species is that you can't place a traditional leash and collar on those animals so alternate methods had to be used with them. That hardly means that those methods are better suited to dogs where you CAN place a traditional leash and collar on them. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan Fthan one retired cop


This description of me as a "retired cop" is a weak attempt to diminish me and my accomplishments and is ANOTHER emotional attempt get people not to use an Ecollar. The truth is that I've been training dogs for nearly 30 years. I've trained many pets, but mostly police dogs and SAR dogs, the last two groups, dogs that save people's lives. I think that's a bit different than entertaining people at Sea World. (I know that Steve White, whom you mention also trained police dogs. I suggest that you invite ask him how many of those dogs he trained _completely _with the methods that you find acceptable). 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F whose sole and exclusive methodology is a shock collar.


This statement that the Ecollar is my "exclusive methodology" is completely untrue and I think Susan F knows that. If not, she should. I've mentioned it in several other discussions. It's another emotional argument, an attempt to get you to think less of me because I only use one method. It's not true. 

Susan F, I'd appreciate it if you could stick to the topic and lay of the personal attacks!? Your post is full of them. Here's a hint, if you're talking about me, as you've done repeatedly. you're not talking about the topic.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier mamagoose wrote,


> Quote: I am using either a Gentle Leader or a Halti right now.


And I responded


> Quote: You can't use either of these with the crittering protocol.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F Why not?


Because both of those tools pull the dog's head around. In the crittering protocol, as the dog is pulled backwards he'll turn his head to see where he's going as no animal likes to walk backwards. These devices pull the dog's head around by the action of the leash. Using my method, the dog has to do this himself. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I would be very hesitant to put electrodes onto the neck of a Mega-E dog. They already have enough problems with the esophagus that I would be afraid that introducing an electrical pulse, which causes an involuntary muscular contraction, could be very damaging.


Here's another misconception posted as fact. Low level stim DOES NOT cause an "involuntary muscular contraction." It takes quite a high level of stim to do that. And if this WAS a concern, all you'd have to do is to move the collar "box" to the top or side of the dog's neck. Or, as I said earlier, use it around his abdomen. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F And before you argue that it doesn't, it has to. Unless there is a muscular contraction, there is no feeling


I'm sorry but you're wrong. There's no muscular contraction when someone feels "hot, cold, wet, dry, hard, soft, rough, or smooth." Those are all parts of the sense of touch. Low level stim can be felt long before (meaning at a lower current) there's any muscular contraction. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F That is what the dog's reacting to with a shock collar ... an electrical current that causes a muscular contraction.


Here's another misconception stated as a fact. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FLou, have you checked this with a veterinarian that has experience with Mega-E dogs?


Yes. This is nothing but another emotional scare tactic, trying to keep people away from Ecollars. I can't wait for the seizure/epilepsy topic to come up. LOL.


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

Lou,

You're absolutely, positively wrong about the action of a shock collar. 

The collar works by delivering an electrical impulse into the dog's body. That electrical impulse stimulates the nerves to cause a muscular contraction. The degree of the contraction depends on the level of shock delivered. 

Without any muscle contraction, it would be impossible for the dog to feel the shock. You like to talk about the laws of physics relating to these devices, but I don't think you've had courses in physics or anatomy or physiology or biochemistry. (BTW - did I mention that I was an engineering major in college?)

A Gentle Leader or Halti do not "pull the head backwards." The leash attachment is under the jaw, not on top of the head.

If the dog is "doing this on his own," there wouldn't be any need for the handler to use the leash to pull the dog's head around. He/she would be able to do this, regardless of whether he/she is wearing a pinch collar or buckle collar or head collar or harness. A loose leash is a loose leash, regardless of the collar to which it's attached.

If you're dragging the dog around, then he really isn't "doing it on his own" and it really isn't much of a "protocol," it's just using force to control your dog.


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleBut your statement (just above) is one of the things I'm talking about. It's QUITE misleading. I'm quite clear that the Ecollar is NOT, as you've said "the only solution to every problem." I've NEVER said any such thing.


I'd be interested in seeing even one post from you that suggests any solution to any behavioral issue other than the use of a shock collar. I've never seen one.

And, yes, you do hijack the thread by adding LOOOOOONG post, after post, after post, trying to discredit real science and trying to sell yourself. I've also never seen you reference any other source as support for "your" methods. You're a lone wolf without any true support for your methodologies. 




> Originally Posted By: LouCastleEcollar users prefer the word "stim" (short for _"stimulation_) because the sensation is nothing like the shock that one gets from a wall outlet or a charged fence.


Of course shock collar users *prefer* to use the word "stim," it's more PC. The fact is, however, that it is delivering an electrical impulse into the dog's body, which is the definition of a "shock." 



> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> The reason that other methods are used with those species is that you can't place a traditional leash and collar on those animals so alternate methods had to be used with them.


Exactly ... if you can train a hyena without having to use a leash and shock collar, why can't you train a dog?

It isn't necessary for a person to be a "member of this board" to be creditworthy. To suggest that only people who have the time and inclination to post on germanshepherds.com can have valid theories of behavior and training is ludicrous. Being a member on this forum does not increase one's intellect, veracity, or professional credentials.



> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> This statement that the Ecollar is my "exclusive methodology" is completely untrue and I think Susan F knows that.


I've never seen you mention any other method than a shock collar.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: mamagooseHa! I do not know a whole lot about dog training as I am still learning.
> 
> However, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that Ecollar's are a huge subject of controversy in the dog world?
> 
> ...


Uhhh...I'd say no.
















Here's the deal from what I see. With her Mega-E I would be cautious about using anything that hasn't been studied extensively, scientifically, on dogs with Mega-e. Not anectdotally either(sp?). 

What I would do-if this isn't a fear issue-which I find it often is, if I had to do anything aversive is to have a come to Jeepers meeting with her, timed perfectly. That is the difficult part-the timing. The other problem is, what if it is a fear issue-what if she is "doing unto others before they can do unto her" and what if it's because of her health issue? That is what I would be concerned with. 

Any dog here having had any surgery is automatically defensive because they are aware that they are unable to defend themselves against the pack. 

That is where I come in. I step in, puff up, blow a lot of smoke, throw my big ole butt around and let them all know that there will be no dealings outside what I expect from them, and I expect that to be their "out in the world" best behavior. They are all very nice to that injured dog, and that injured dog relaxes visibly. 

So you may need to look at ways to project that you are in control. 

Do the other positives mentioned to remove the fear. 

http://www.flyingdogpress.com go to free articles for some good ones!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Alot of what Lou has said as far as use of an c-collar goes can be supported by this study:

http://www.trainmypet.net/documents/white_paper.pdf

In ref to gentleness, pain, Shock (I REALLY HATE THAT WORD BTW)lasting damage to a dog ect. It also shows a chart with levels of "stim" (shock if one must use the word) compared to other devices.


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

Tracie,

I read the paper and I don't know that I entirely disagree with the conclusion:



> Quote:*Are Electronic Training
> Devices Right for Your Dog?*Regardless of their previous attitudes toward
> electronic training devices, after considering the
> information presented in this paper, veterinarians
> ...


The problem here, in addition to the medical condition of the dog, is that we ARE dealing with an aggression/phobia issue.

Even the table from the Delta Society, included in the paper, says (I've modified the format because it wouldn't copy/paste here, but I've kept the content exactly):



> Quote:
> Remote collars
> Limitations: Training goals should be achieved with minimal repetitions.
> 
> ...



So, even the white paper published by the manufacturer of the devices does not recommend using them for the type of issue presented here.

Also left open is what if the desired behavior is not achieved after "minimal repetitions?" What is the back-up plan?

I would be interested in finding the 2003 Steiss study. There is no bibliographical information for it.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks Jean! 

Here's a question. How can you tell if it's fear aggression or not?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Lisa, from what they say about the collar, it sounds like the lowest setting your dog would react to is a LOT more gentle than the prong collar or any other collar that physically moves the dog's neck. An e-collar really might be more helpful. 

Have you ever touched a 9 volt battery to your tongue and felt the shock? It's not painful (to me), it's quite startling and really does get your attention. From what they say about the e-collars lowest settings, it sounds like it can go a LOT lower than that. I would first find out if there are any indications against the use of e-collars with mega-e dogs first, of course.


----------



## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Diana, 

Thank you for your response. I am trying to get her into some formal training right now. I am e-mailing someone to see if they can help me. 

Honestly, I doubt a shock collar would affect her esophagus. Her esophagus is useless. It has no motility, or tone. It's just a big, floppy tube connecting her mouth to her stomach. 

If light shocks actually got it to contract that might be a good thing. lol

I don't know about the ecollar yet. Being that it's so controversial I will have to do a lot of research. 

I hate the Gentle Leader. It doesn't work with her and she pulls on regardless of the fact it is no pull. 

I have used a prong and she was responsive to that, but the tugging of the neck causes irritation of her useless esophagus and she regurges mucus all day long.

I know A LOT of her problems are me. She's a dominate personality and I let her get away with many many things I don't let the other dogs get away with because I feel sorry for her. Not to mention she gets WAY more attention than the other dogs. We don't do that on purpose but because of all her feedings, and treatments she gets it just happens that way. 

I would imagine she thinks she gets all that attention because she is the "Queen", but really it's just because we have to treat her. 

I need to get tougher with her, but it's so freakin hard not to let my piddly little human emotions get involved.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Susan FYou're absolutely, positively wrong about the action of a shock collar.
> 
> The collar works by delivering an electrical impulse into the dog's body. That electrical impulse stimulates the nerves to cause a muscular contraction. The degree of the contraction depends on the level of shock delivered.


I'm afraid that YOU are the one who's wrong here Susan F, as I'll show in a moment. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F Without any muscle contraction, it would be impossible for the dog to feel the shock.


Below the muscle's threshold of stimulation it doesn’t contract. But the nerves in that area can still detect the feeling of the current flow. Please provide the scientific study that says that any current flow will result in a muscular contraction. Like a light bulb on a dimmer switch (the light doesn’t come on until the current has been raise to the light's threshold) the same thing happens with the muscle. Below that threshold (for either the light or the muscle, current is still flowing and can be detected, but the muscle doesn't contract. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F You like to talk about the laws of physics relating to these devices


I do!? The only time I've brought it up in our conversations has been when you've claimed that an Ecollar can cause burns. They can't, BTW, it's another myth that people like to bring up to scare people away from Ecollars. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F but I don't think you've had courses in physics or anatomy or physiology or biochemistry.


It's a real mistake to assume things about others. Sometimes when you do this, as now, you're wrong. I've had quite a bit of physics, anatomy. physiology and biochem. I've also had lots of organic, chem., zoology, microbiology, botany, kinesiology, and lots more. I changed my major quite a bit so my education is quite varied. 

And AGAIN you're all about the personal attack. Wondering if you even capable of sticking to the topic? The evidence seems to be against this. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F (BTW - did I mention that I was an engineering major in college?)


No you haven't. I'm not sure why you mention it now, except you think that it will impress us. All I can say is that it's not standing you in good stead here and now. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Because both of those tools pull the dog's head around. In the crittering protocol, as the dog is pulled backwards he'll turn his head to see where he's going as no animal likes to walk backwards. These devices pull the dog's head around by the action of the leash. Using my method, the dog has to do this himself.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F A Gentle Leader or Halti do not "pull the head backwards."


Please see what I wrote (cited just above your quotation. NEVER did I say (as you've quoted me) that the Gentle Leader or Halti "pull the head backwards." Misquoting is something that I should have written in my earlier post about "avoiding the Ecollar debate." Misquoting me deliberately like this is sure to have the debate continue. 

I clearly said *"as the dog is pulled backwards" * NOT that his head is pulled backwards. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The leash attachment is under the jaw, not on top of the head.


Yes, I know. Misquoting me and then deliberately trying to make it look as if I've said something wrong is a logical fallacy called a _Straw Many _attack. And AGAIN is sure to keep the Ecollar debate going. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FIf the dog is "doing this on his own," there wouldn't be any need for the handler to use the leash to pull the dog's head around.


The fact is that these tools pull the dog's head around (AGAIN refer to what I actually wrote instead of your deliberate misquotation of it,


> Quote:*These devices pull the dog's head around by the action of the leash. * (Emphasis added)


 means that the dog won't be turning his own head. That is necessary for the protocol to work as that's the intent of the training. The dog is taught to turn his head away from the prey animal. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F He/she would be able to do this, regardless of whether he/she is wearing a pinch collar or buckle collar or head collar or harness. A loose leash is a loose leash, regardless of the collar to which it's attached.


I have no idea of where this talk of "A loose leash is a loose leash, regardless of the collar to which it's attached." comes from. During the crittering protocol, when the dog shows the first sign of aggression he's pulled away from the other dog. The leash at that point isn't loose and it's not supposed to be. It's being used to help guide the dog into the correct behavior. A Gentle Leader or a Halti would "force" the dog into the behavior of turning his head, not have him doing it by himself to see where he's going. 

Your comments show that either you haven't read my crittering protocol at all or that you have but have forgotten it or simply didn't understand it. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F If you're dragging the dog around, then he really isn't "doing it on his own" and it really isn't much of a "protocol," it's just using force to control your dog.


I'll go with "haven't read it" or "haven't understood it." There's no "dragging the dog around" anywhere in anything I've written. I've personally used it with over 200 dogs, It's never failed to stop crittering or aggression as long as the owner does his homework.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: But your statement (just above) is one of the things I'm talking about. It's QUITE misleading. I'm quite clear that the Ecollar is NOT, as you've said "the only solution to every problem." I've NEVER said any such thing.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F I'd be interested in seeing even one post from you that suggests any solution to any behavioral issue other than the use of a shock collar. I've never seen one.


You've ASSUMED that I only use the Ecollar. If so, you've missed quite a bit of what I've written. I've written about using other tools when it was appropriate. If I get the posts will you get off this horse? 

In any case, there are MANY people here who use lots of other tools and when I read their posts suggesting their use and I think it's appropriate I don't comment. I see no point in "Me too" posts. But there are not as many people here with expertise and experience with the Ecollar so when I think a problem will respond well to it, I'll suggest it. This results in me rarely taking part in discussions that don't involve the Ecollar. Like most, my time is limited so I choose to spend my time where I think it's best used. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F And, yes, you do hijack the thread by adding LOOOOOONG post, after post, after post


In these threads, I'm teaching about the Ecollar. The teacher of a subject usually has more to say about it than the student. In any case, like everyone else on this forum, I'm limited in the length of my posts. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F trying to discredit real science


Please show us a post where this has happened. Such accusations without support mean nothing. It's nothing but ANOTHER personal attack without any basis in fact. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F and trying to sell yourself.


I'm not selling anything. My website, which contains many articles about how to use the Ecollar, is FREE. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I've also never seen you reference any other source as support for "your" methods.


I rarely do, There's no need for it. You're the name dropper, not me. But since you ask … Jim Dobbs, who's trained hundreds of field trial dogs to high titles uses methods that are a lot like mine. Wendell Nope, the head of K-9 training for LE in the state of Utah, uses methods similar to mine. Donn Yarnall who founded BOTH the LAPD K-9 narcotics unit and the Patrol K-9 unit (and was head trainer for the latter for the last 20+ years of his career) uses methods similar to mine. Mike Lardy, who's trained hundreds of field trial dogs, many of them to National Championships uses methods similar to mine. Pat Nelson, who's trained hundreds of pets and field trial dogs, uses methods similar to mine. Brian Mowry, the head of K-9 for the US Secret Service, uses methods similar to mine. I've stolen from all of them. LOL. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F You're a lone wolf without any true support for your methodologies.


Right here on this site there are quite a few people who are using my methods! AGAIN I've shown you to be wrong. Wondering if you're EVER going to get off the personal attack?! 

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Ecollar users prefer the word "stim" (short for _"stimulation_) because the sensation is nothing like the shock that one gets from a wall outlet or a charged fence.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F Of course shock collar users *prefer* to use the word "stim," it's more PC.


PC has nothing to do with it. Earlier models of the Ecollar used VERY high levels of stim. They were not adjustable. Those DID cause muscular contractions, unlike today's models, used at low levels. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact is, however, that it is delivering an electrical impulse *into the dog's body, * which is the definition of a "shock."


Actually the stim doesn't go anywhere but across the contact points (on the dog's neck about 1 1/4" apart) and a very slight distance into the skin between those contact points. Saying that the electricity "is deliver[ed]…*into the dog's body"*(Emphasis added) is just another scare tactic. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: The reason that other methods are used with those species is that you can't place a traditional leash and collar on those animals so alternate methods had to be used with them.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F Exactly ... if you can train a hyena without having to use a leash and shock collar, why can't you train a dog?


Please show us a hyena that's been trained with your methods that is reliable on the recall. And while you're there, you also mentioned whales and dolphins. Those animals are NOTORIOUSLY *UN*reliable. When one of them won't perform at a show, they just substitute another one. They're interchangeable. People's dogs are not. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F It isn't necessary for a person to be a "member of this board" to be creditworthy. To suggest that only people who have the time and inclination to post on germanshepherds.com can have valid theories of behavior and training is ludicrous. Being a member on this forum does not increase one's intellect, veracity, or professional credentials.


I've never said that membership is necessary to "be creditworthy." But all you're doing is name dropping. Have you spoken to Steve about what I suggested you ask him yet? Would you like to know what he's said on this? 

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: This statement that the Ecollar is my "exclusive methodology" is completely untrue and I think Susan F knows that.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F I've never seen you mention any other method than a shock collar.


Then you're not paying attention. I've discussed other methods that I use a couple of times. 

Could we please get back to the topic? And could you PLEASE stop the personal attacks?


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mamagooseI don't know anything about them other than what they are. Can you guys fill me in without a thread war (looks doubtful lol)?





> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN Uhhh...I'd say no.


If people would do as I've suggested, thread wars about the Ecollar would not be necessary. To remind folks,


> Quote:… don't post misleading statements, myths or misconceptions as fact, [avoid] emotional attacks, or rudeness …





> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN Here's the deal from what I see. With her Mega-E I would be cautious about using anything that hasn't been studied extensively, scientifically, on dogs with Mega-e. Not anectdotally either(sp?).


As I've said, if you think this is a concern, (I don't) then place the Ecollar on the dog's abdomen. 



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN What I would do-if this isn't a fear issue-which I find it often is, if I had to do anything aversive is to have a come to Jeepers meeting with her, timed perfectly. That is the difficult part-the timing. The other problem is, what if it is a fear issue-what if she is "doing unto others before they can do unto her" and what if it's because of her health issue? That is what I would be concerned with.


I'd suggest EXTREME care with this. I've known dogs that redirect their aggression onto the person conducting the "meeting."


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Lisa, there is controversy because it involves an electric shock (yes, a shock, who cares? A shock can be small or large. Static electricity is still a shock, but it's not that bad), and methods that can be used in horribly wrong ways. It's all too easy to train a dog incorrectly with an e-collar to the point where the dog is ruined. It's less easy to screw up a dog with a prong, choke, or buckle collar, very hard to screw one up with a clicker (unless you use it to mark all the wrong behaviors), and then there is the "purely positive" mentality to contend with. I really think the best training method for all dogs is to train motivationally, reward according to accomplishment, maintain rewards, but also use clear and accurately timed corrections, not to mention corrections fitting the infraction. 

Some dogs need more "convincing" than others while some people would simply benefit from the e-collar's timing and control. Look at leash corrections- we are SO inconsistent! Sometimes it's a tap, sometimes a tug, sometimes an all-out jerk, sometimes the dog hits the end of it without us adjusting for the impact, sometimes we move our arms and accidentally jerk the leash as a correction even though the dog did nothing! An e-collar is consistent, can be easily increased and decreased when desired but typically does not change on its own, barring failing batteries or poor placement. I think it's a good tool that is often misused, even by some so-called "pros." Look CAREFULLY for a trainer and sit in on sessions with trained dogs but ESPECIALLY dogs that never had been on the e-collar and see what they do. Research carefully, but don't discount the tool because of massive debate. The tool is just a tool, waiting to be used, but the METHOD is what must be worried about. Even a clicker can be used incorrectly, such as to reward negative behaviors or coupled with such poor timing that there is no rhyme or reason as to what is or is not rewarded. I've seen plenty dogs choke themselves to coughing and hacking and vomiting fits from pulling so hard on their buckle collars. I think a minor shock from an e-collar that just causes them to twitch an ear is slightly more humane than that.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hey Lisa, I also use an e-collar with Ava, my daughter will even play with it because she likes the stim it gives her....I have tried it on myself....At the level that a collar is recomended, it does not cause pain. I would not feel okay about trying to use it to treat aggression on my own though, I would want a pro with me every step of the way.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

WOW, I had to scroll past a lot of posts trying to follow what is going on with the OP. 

Have you tried a harness on her. I did an experiement with Cheyenne one day she loves to pull and hubby allows it so when I take her out, she pull and pulls. So I put her leash around her ches and the thread back through the the chain of the Maringale collar, LOL guess what she didn't like that leash tightening up on her rib cage. Not saying that you need to do that, but maybe a harness is the answer. When I put Cheyennes tracking harness on she loves it because it has a leather plate in the front that she can really lean into, so it would have to be a different type harness.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Betsy, I wonder if it is like the Thera-stim treatments I have had.... LOL I love those.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I wouldnt doubt it, it almost tickles


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then I went on to explain that I thought it could be fear based and that she could use other positive based techniques. I hope Lisa read beyond that one sentence! 

In another post for a similar situation I also suggested having short and long term goals. Baby steps, just like in What About Bob.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Susan FI read the paper and I don't know that I entirely disagree with the conclusion:


From the article,


> Quote:*Are Electronic Training
> Devices Right for Your Dog?*Regardless of their previous attitudes toward
> electronic training devices, after considering the
> information presented in this paper, veterinarians
> ...





> Originally Posted By: mamagoose The problem here, in addition to the medical condition of the dog


As has been shown a couple of times the dog's medical condition is NOT an contraindication against using the Ecollar. There are simple ways around the problems. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan Fis that we ARE dealing with an aggression/phobia issue.


Those folks, like most, are talking about using the Ecollar to punish aggression. That is, pressing the button when the dog becomes aggressive. I also recommend against this use of the Ecollar. It can make the problem worse on many levels. 

But my crittering protocol doesn't do it this way. Http://loucastle.com/critter.htm. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FEven the table from the Delta Society, included in the paper, says (I've modified the format because it wouldn't copy/paste here, but I've kept the content exactly)


Well not quite. In the last part it says this,


> Quote: Contact points may irritate skin, causing infection.


 but you somehow left out this part,


> Quote: … so dog's neck should be examined frequently.


 It's EASY to avoid this problem; move the collar around on the dog's neck (or wherever you happen to have it) every couple of hours. Then this problem is completely avoided. 



> Quote:
> Remote collars
> Limitations: Training goals should be achieved with minimal repetitions.


Not sure why you think this points out some problem with Ecollars? Isn't it true of any tool/method? 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FRisks and Warnings:
> Shock can trigger aggressive behavior or stress
> training severe enough to interfere with learning.


Yes, as I've said this can happen with high levels of stim. It DOES NOT happen when low levels of stim are used. It's easy to avoid, don't turn up the dial. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FSo, even the white paper published by the manufacturer of the devices does not recommend using them for the type of issue presented here.


They're only talking about using the Ecollar _as a correction _to try and stop aggression. I recommend against that too. They don't know about my method. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FAlso left open is what if the desired behavior is not achieved after "minimal repetitions?" What is the back-up plan?


What is the definition of "minimal repetitions?" But isn't that the goal of any training, to use the minimal number of reps? 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FI would be interested in finding the 2003 Steiss study. There is no bibliographical information for it.


I've been told that it's out for peer review. But since it was done at Tuskegee University, that's the place I'd start. 

But there's something else here that's interesting as an aside. It's about Ecollars causing burns, something that some like to use to scare people with. The articles says,


> Quote: Of particular concern, * some are mistaking pressure necrosis … caused by too-tight collars for burns that appear to have been caused by the collar. *
> 
> According to Dieter Klein, “The electric properties and performances of the modern low current remote stimulation devices (with current intensity of less than 100 mA) are comparable to the electric stimulation devices used in human medicine. * Organic damage, as a direct impact of the applied current, can be excluded.” * (Emphasis added)


Translation for us common folk? NO BURNS from Ecollars!!!!!!


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMLisa, from what they say about the collar, it sounds like the lowest setting your dog would react to is a LOT more gentle than the prong collar or any other collar that physically moves the dog's neck. An e-collar really might be more helpful.


Modern Ecollars can be adjust so low that no one (and no dog) can feel them. They can then be turned up (I recommend that an Ecollar have at least 15 levels) so that they can just barely be perceived. Yesterday I put Ecollars on four of my new clients. Two were adults and said that it felt like "tapping." The two children both giggled. 



> Originally Posted By: DianaMFrom what they say about the e-collars lowest settings, it sounds like it can go a LOT lower than that. I would first find out if there are any indications against the use of e-collars with mega-e dogs first, of course.


The condition is so rare that I doubt you'll find anyone who's every done anything to test the two together. But there's nothing about the Ecollar that contraindicates it. If you're afraid "just in case" simply put it around the dog's abdomen.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mamagooseHonestly, I doubt a shock collar would affect her esophagus. Her esophagus is useless. It has no motility, or tone. It's just a big, floppy tube connecting her mouth to her stomach.


I doubt it too. 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose If light shocks actually got it to contract that might be a good thing.


I doubt that it would have any effect either way. 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose I don't know about the ecollar yet. Being that it's so controversial I will have to do a lot of research.


You'll find all sorts of evidence against it but the science just isn't there. The controversy only exists among those who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." And often they have a financial interest. 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose I hate the Gentle Leader. It doesn't work with her and she pulls on regardless of the fact it is no pull.


They often cause all sorts of sores on the dog's face as well as the ineffectiveness you report. 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose I know A LOT of her problems are me. She's a dominate personality and I let her get away with many many things I don't let the other dogs get away with because I feel sorry for her. Not to mention she gets WAY more attention than the other dogs. We don't do that on purpose but because of all her feedings, and treatments she gets it just happens that way.


I'd suggest that you not let your feelings about her condition affect how you treat her, except as it directly impacts that condition. 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose I need to get tougher with her, but it's so freakin hard not to let my piddly little human emotions get involved.


That's a t the base of many problems with our dogs.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Hi Lisa -

It sounds to me like you have multiple things going on with this girl that need to be addressed. There's much you can do without resorting to any sort of aversive, and I highly recommend that you start there and not add more stress to this dog's life at this point.

First I would encourage you to take a good hard look at the leadership that you offer this dog. You've mentioned that you let her get away with many things and that's going to carry right over to her response to any sort of training you try to do with her, especially when she's in the middle of reacting to the presence of another dog. She doesn't really have any REASON to respond to you, because she probably doesn't view you in a leadership role. So it's really to her benefit that you step up and set some rules for her and make her understand that YES, you love her but that you ARE the one she has to listen to. That can be done fairly easily without much stress. It's more of an attitude than anything else. You can see tips on setting up leadership on my website (www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html).

And along with that, I really encourage you to do the attention training (steps are written out on my website). You do need to find something that she really likes that you can use as a motivator/reward, but I think you've already gone over that. If she's able to lick at soft food left on a rag, there's probably no reason why you can't deliberately smear some cheese spread or liverwurst or baby food on a rag and use it for reward. If the soft stuff is something she can have in very small amounts, you may even be able to put some in an oral syringe and then squirt out a quarter inch or so and let her lick off the end of the syringe (MUCH cleaner for you than the rag method!). I use the squeeze cheese in the cans and my dogs lick it straight from the can as I squirt a bit out. 

I'm sure you can find something that she will really like and find rewarding. You can pair this with praise and maybe a special scratching in a spot she really likes (my dogs each have their favorite place to be scratched). That will help elevate the praise and petting to a level where they start to become more rewarding even without the food.

Once she's learned that you are the leader, and that attention is rewarded (you initially do this training in a low distraction area) then you can start working on desensitization. There are tips for that on my site too. The first step is to figure out her comfort zone - meaning how far she can be from a dog before she reacts. It's important that you learn to really read her. You need to see her first subtle cues that mean she's going to react because those help you determine how far you need to be away from the other dog. Watch for her focusing on movement, stiffening slightly, tightening around the eyes/lips, closing her mouth and lifting her head a bit, etc. You'll probably be amazed at how much you learn about dogs and behavior and body language as you go through all of this training. 

Her first desensitization is done when she's fully in her comfort zone (no reaction to the other dog) and then you gradually work closer and closer (over a period of days/weeks as needed). It's not unusual to see an improvement quickly, however, once she understands what is expected and that she will be highly rewarded when she offers the behaviors YOU want. The leadership is absolutely important, however (even if you went with an aversive method you would still need to establish a good leadership).

I get the feeling that you really want to have a great relationship with this girl. Just dealing with the health problems puts a lot of strain on a relationship and I just can't, in good faith, recommend any sort of aversion with this girl until you've given the other things a good try. I've used the leadership/attention training/desensitization on hundreds of dogs and it's extremely effective for reactive dogs. It does take a bit of commitment on the part of the owner, but I think you have that commitment already. And you'll find that going through this will help you build a better relationship and a higher level of communication with your dog than you thought possible. 

Best of luck to you -

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Thank you Melanie! 

Yes, it's really painful to read that you are not a good leader to your dog LOL! I know, I said it in a previous post and it's true. 

The other two dogs treat me as if I'm leader. While they are not trained to perfection, they rarely ever challenge me in their behavior. 

Here's some examples of what Maiya does that the other dogs won't do:

Rush the door when I open it. 

Always has to be first to go out or come in. First before me usually, but ALWAYS first before the other dogs.

Pushes herself out the front door despite my reprimands.

Jumps on the couch and sits ON me without being invited.

Will not get down from furniture without me physically removing her. With the other dogs all I have to do it point to the floor and they jump down.

Jumps on me to try and grab food out of my hand. She knows I let her lick the spoons when I'm making her food, but doesn't want to wait for me to give them to her. 

She will NOT lay down and allow someone to hover over her for ANY reason. Especially if there is another dog in the room. SHE has to be on top of EVERYONE! This can make it difficult because it would be nice if I could roll her over on her side to clean the area around her tube. My other dogs will easily let me push them over on their side and stay there until I'm done doing whatever. 

Like right now she is demanding to be on the couch despite the fact that there is no room. She is trying to jump up ontop of my son who is laying here. 

When strangers come in the house my other dogs are always hesitant and like to go behind them and sniff the back of their legs or their butt (that's always embarrassing!), but Maiya is right up in their face, either barking or eye to eye sniffing them in the nose. 

She gets aggressive when I play with the other dogs. I have to leave her in the house when I take the other two out to toss a ball because she starts making everyone uncomfortable by showing aggressive body language towards them and then they become afraid to chase the ball.

I'm guessing these are dominate behaviors? 

I would never tolerate this from the other dogs. I say no and I mean it! 

She is taking advantage of me. I correct her but apparently she doesn't take me seriously. I can see why though. My pity for her doesn't help!

I guess the first step is admitting you have a problem. LOL! 

Fortuantely she has never showed ANY aggression towards me. I can take what I want from her, she has never growled at us or anything like that. 

When we first got her she was attacking Annabelle so bad that I almost thought we couldn't keep her. She took off the back of her ear, and almost put out her eye. That poor dog went in for stitches so many times and Maiya never had a scratch on her. The fights were REALLY scary. Maiya was NOT going to let up.

Thankfully we have not had a fight like that since December. They appear to be a little closer now. They don't like to be seperated from each other now. Odd how that worked out, but I still NEVER trust them alone together. 

Maiya does attack my beagle but not near as often and only once has she hurt him by piercing his ear with her teeth. She jumps on him, he screams and rolls onto his back, she hovers for a minute with the tail up and ears back and walks away. Oddly, he is the dog she prefers to play with when she actually lets her guard down and plays.

I don't know how to handle her when she does this as when you grab her it makes her more phsycotic. 

Oh it's painful to type it all out and read it. LOL! I've put off training with her because the vets said she probably wasn't going to live very long. Well she's still kickin and I'm getting a little tired of her behaviors.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Lisa,

She sounds like she knows she can push the limits because of her health situation and the fact that she is just a pushy female. So she isn't going to willingly want to change and might become upset, sullen and lash out at the other dogs when you try to take away some of her power. But if you slowly rein her back in, start with one behavior you want to modify fix that and move on to the next. Don't try to change every thing at once.

Since it causes problems when you put pressure on her neck with a collar, I would try a harness so I had some form of control over her. Most of the harnesses are comfortable enough that they can be worn for the day and taken off at night.

I know you can't give treats for good behavior, so you need to find a way to reward and mark the good behaviors. 

Val


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Rush the door when I open it.


Simple- shut the door or put yourself in front of the door. Be quicker than her. Teach her to sit and wait. Have her sit, turn the knob, correct and replace if she breaks. Crack the door, repeat above. Repeat until you can have the door wide open and she watches your eyes, waiting in a sit for your release, but ONLY release her AFTER you step out of the door first. Each infraction results in you going back inside, shutting the door, and ignoring her.



> Quote:Always has to be first to go out or come in. First before me usually, but ALWAYS first before the other dogs.


See above. Other dogs, no biggie. But when it comes to you, YOU FIRST, ALWAYS, until she understands that she gets to go through by your direction only.



> Quoteushes herself out the front door despite my reprimands.


Reprimand harder. One good correction is better than a thousand nagging ones and sometimes "hitting the roof" can be a good thing. Show her that when Mom means it, she means it, else Maiya's world comes crashing down around her! Step in front of her! Push her back! Shut the door and walk away and ignore her! Play by YOUR rules, not hers.



> Quote:Jumps on the couch and sits ON me without being invited.


As of this day forward, Maiya is no longer allowed on the furniture ever. She does not deserve the privilege and thus it must be revoked. Have her earn it. Do not invite her up until her behavior is excellent and she completely defers to you but be prepared to revoke it again if necessary. Also, NO BED! Four on the floor, that's the law now. Might as well do it for all dogs to get the point across (and avoid any nasty arguments or fights).



> Quote:Will not get down from furniture without me physically removing her. With the other dogs all I have to do it point to the floor and they jump down.


See above. For a dog to be granted furniture rights, they must obey "off." No exceptions.



> Quote:Jumps on me to try and grab food out of my hand. She knows I let her lick the spoons when I'm making her food, but doesn't want to wait for me to give them to her.


No more spoon licking. She cannot control herself, she doesn't get the reward. 

You don't need an e-collar but you definitely do need to step up the leadership BIG TIME. Maiya clearly walks all over you.







Turn the tables on her and remember, it will get worse before it gets better. And make those Jello liver treats for positive training!


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks Val! I will look for a good harness for her! I didn't even think about her lashing out due to me suddenly starting to discipline her. We will start with one thing at a time. She's such a pushy little brat!


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

LOL! I need to send her to you for awhile Diana! 

It's so sad because I have no problem taking that attitude with the other dogs, but pooooor poooor Maiya. *sigh*

Ok, snapping out of the pity party! 

I'll try starting with the furniture as that is irking me the most. I'll also *try* to quit looking at her and seeing her illness instead of her. She is NOT her illness!! LOL!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Lisa, it is so so easy to not correct problems with dogs that have health problems. She might not ever be a perfect dog, but I think you can get her to where you are happier with her behaviors.

I don't know much about MegaE dogs, so I am not sure on how the illness affects them. But if she has days where she doesn't feel good, I think you will find that she won't be as happy to being put back in her place, so I think you might have a bit of a balancing act. I know some may disagree with me, but you can't expect sick dogs to be as obeident as a good healthy dog. Just like when you don't feel well, you don't want people pushing you around or demanding things from you. So watch for the days when she doesn't feel as good and if she gives you part of what you are asking for, don't push for full compliance, that will come on days when she is feeling better.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerLisa, it is so so easy to not correct problems with dogs that have health problems. She might not ever be a perfect dog, but I think you can get her to where you are happier with her behaviors.
> 
> I don't know much about MegaE dogs, so I am not sure on how the illness affects them. But if she has days where she doesn't feel good, I think you will find that she won't be as happy to being put back in her place, so I think you might have a bit of a balancing act. I know some may disagree with me, but you can't expect sick dogs to be as obeident as a good healthy dog. Just like when you don't feel well, you don't want people pushing you around or demanding things from you. So watch for the days when she doesn't feel as good and if she gives you part of what you are asking for, don't push for full compliance, that will come on days when she is feeling better.


Yes she has her down days. Usually when she has gotten ahold of a decent amount of food somehow. Once she's gotten it all out then she feels better.

I agree that she will never be "well-trained". You would be suprised at how much an esophagus can effect things. I would have never guessed how much of an impact it can have on a life. I do believe though if I can just get over feeling sorry for her and treat her like I do the other dogs then many of her behavior problems will go away.

The dog aggression we will have to work on a lot harder. It's more female dogs than male dogs, but she does it to a lesser degree with the boys too.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Lisa, remember the days that she doesn't feel well, to be on high alert with her and the other dogs or when she is feeling bad can you just separate her from the other dogs? I will bet that days she isn't feeling the best are the days that she is testier with the other dogs.

You can still spoil her and treat her different you just have to decide what you really don't want to live with any more. What I am trying to say is pick your poison.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I agree with what Val said about ill dogs having off days, so Lisa, instead of the furniture fight, how about purchasing the biggest, nicest, comfiest bed you can for Maiya? If it out-comfies the couch, she'll choose that! You can place objects such as gates on the couch, that way Maiya has no choice but to choose her comfy bed.

As for spoiling her, yes you can absolutely spoil a dog, but I do think that making a clean break will reduce confusion. It's VERY hard if you give clear leadership signals one minute but the next you hand the reins to the dog. That's what causes problems! When it comes to spoiling, have Maiya hold a long down, start with short ones and work up to long ones, and while she is down, she can lick spoons all she wants. The key here is to make her EARN the spoiling! Sit and wait for the door nicely? Get a liver Jello cube. Hold a really good long down for five minutes? Heck with the spoon, lick the bowl! "Off" on command? Have a nice bowl of "soup" made from boiled chicken, garlic, and liver. 

Utilize crates and gates to control situations. If Maiya is having an off day and you think there could be a fight over the couch, either crate her or gate her out of the room or place objects on the couch that prevent her from getting on it. Pick your battles! If Maiya is on the couch and doesn't want to move, you can make a treat she loves (spoon licking, organ soup, whatever), entice her to come get it, then block off the couch. 

You hit the nail on the head about feeling sorry for her. You want to spoil her like a mom would spoil a sick kid, but dogs don't see it that way, they really do see it as a weakness if it's not done right (such as working for spoiling). If you treat her like a regular dog, things may turn around a lot more than you think. If she's this bossy when she's sick, imagine how she'd be if she were a really healthy dog! It sucks her esophagus is just a tube sock but she obviously doesn't let that bug her, in fact, she's using that as a ticket to world domination.









How about picking up a copy of Jan Fennel's book titled "The Dog Listener?" That is all about non-confrontational methods and I think it'd be a great book for you to read. Cesar Millan is physical and strict and rough, Jan Fennell is completely the opposite but oh so wonderful! At the risk of repeating myself, I do think a few months of solid NILIF "boot camp" would be best, then gradually allow the spoilage to come through so long as she earns them. Again, you need clear signals; mixed signals will do nothing but confuse the dog and make an already hairy situation much worse.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Hi Lisa - 

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself over this - it is completely normal for us to give privileges to a sick dog (or an old dog - all of my old dogs end up "forgetting" some of their obedience because I allow them privileges they wouldn't have gotten as younger dogs). And it's completely normal for a dog to take full advantage of our "kindness" (as we see it). It doesn't make you a bad owner or her a bad dog - it is what it is, she is going to do whatever you allow her to do, and all it needs is a change in your perception of her place and it will all come together.

I don't see leadership as being necessarily corrective, so that's not even something that you may need. I see it as being infinitely patient, willing to out-wait the dog at doorways and while feeding, etc., and having the ability to grin and think "nope, I'm NOT going to give in!". The doors are a perfect example. I don't correct my dogs for wanting to go through a door in front of me, especially when I'm first teaching them. I just stop opening the door as soon as they move toward it. So if I head for the door and the dogs rush ahead of me, I turn away. If I get to the door and the dogs crowd forward when I reach for the doorknob, I drop my hand and just stand there. It really doesn't take them long to figure out that the only way to get ME to open the door, is for THEM to stay back and give me the room and time to do it. I don't even tell my dogs sit or stay most of the time - manners at the door are completely implied and expected without command. If I start out giving commands, then the dogs expect the command. I want them to understand that when the door opens, no one goes out until I specifically say they can. This has worked out especially well where I currently live (with a busy four land highway out front). I can open the door and the dogs all stand there in the doorway looking out, waiting to hear their names. And I can say "just Trick" and only Trick comes out - the others all stand there and wait. When people come to visit, I can open the door for them to come in and even if the door is left open, the dogs stay inside without command. This is what I consider training in leadership.

I truly find that dogs who are provided a strong, kind, consistent leadership are generally more happy. I do make some allowances for where they are in the family group - some dogs are naturally more dominant than others, and I don't try to make them act more submissive than the dogs that are naturally more submissive. I expect them to have manners toward each other (one of the reasons I'm able to live successfully with a group of bitches) but I let them fall into their natural dominance levels in regards to each other as much as possible. This helps them all be comfortable too. 

I really look at the behavior of my dogs, choose what I like and what I don't like, and then only reward what I like. If I like having my dogs lick off the spoons (I do a lot of spoon feeding with pumpkin and peanut butter at times) then I allow that, on MY terms. They have to take turns, and if one crowds in then I crowd that dog out. I mean that physically - I move in with my legs and push the dog back, sometimes clear across the room and into another room. Crowding is a very effective method to get the point across that YOU are in control. Some dogs initially take it as a game, but when you continue to crowd them (silently) until you've pushed them out of a room - and do it again if necessary - they will figure out that it isn't a game and that if they want to be part of the group getting to lick the spoon or do whatever you're doing, then they need to settle down and respond correctly.

When you have a dog with a health problem, you still want to provide proper leadership but you also don't want to do things that will create a high level of stress on an already stressed dog. Most of the leadership exercises that I use are not really stressful. The dogs simply have to do what I want before they get what they want - no correction, just no reward. And dogs are ALL about reward. We just have to understand what they consider reward (which may be something as little as running out the door, or getting to pee on something).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThere was a dog like this in a neighborhood I lived in, a Bernese Mt. Dog. His owner had done a consultation with Patricia McConnell and she had advised a counter-conditioning program. By the time I met the woman the dog would automatically look at her when he saw another dog.
> 
> So here are my suggestions:
> 
> ...


I think this is excellent advice. I also have purchased a basket muzzle for that site and was thrilled with the quality and price.

I had a dog that would go ballistic when he saw other dogs, my Max. It was not aggression but total excitement. To fix this (this was 16 years ago) I had a thin twig that I would carry on walks and when ever he showed that attention and energy toward another dog I would *gently* tap him between the ears with the stick (got this out of an old dog training book)...he would turn looking for what touched him and look confused but his attention was no longer on the other dog. After a while he would see another dog and immedately turn looking for the tap lol Not in fear, just sort of in play as I never used the stick maliciously and only tapped to distract him. In any event, it worked and he learned to pay attention and not react when he saw other dogs....my example of a distraction technique from what seems like moons ago lol

Cherri


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I know A LOT of her problems are me. She's a dominate personality and I let her get away with many many things I don't let the other dogs get away with because I feel sorry for her.


This would be a struggle for me, too. We yearn to coddle frail, ill or injured kids/pets. Which is a HUGE mistake.

Some yrs back I worked for a man whose toddler had been operated on for brain cancer & was receiving either radiation or chemo treatments. She was an adorable tyke...Vivacious, bright, opinionated, & generally cheerful. I was soooo impressed at how he & his wife raised her. They were rather strict, with definite rules & limitations. They were simutaneously firm, yet very gentle & completely no nonsense. 

She succumbed to the disease when she was only 3 or 4, but I think her short life was both richer & happier for the realistic & fair limits they imposed on her behavior. 

I've also known kids that were shamelessly spoiled & indulged following serious illnesses/accidents. They screamed, raged, cried, whiiined whenever life didn't yield to 'em. They were widely disdained, disliked even, by teachers, neighbors & other children. I doubt they were happier for being so (over)indulged.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Any update on progress with your dog's aggression?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleAny update on progress with your dog's aggression?


Howdy Lou.

Sorry for the quick out there, but had to say howdy.

DFrost


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