# Please help us. Dog turned agressive



## Seig

We have a two year old male GSD. We got him when he was about ten weeks and has been in our home with myself, my wife and our 17 year old son. He is the most loved and loving thing you would ever see. My work takes me away for weeks at a time and he spends every minute of every day with my wife. She walks him four to five times a day. She takes him to the field by the house three times a day to play catch. She feeds and cares for him like he was another child of ours. He is our baby.

Since he was old enough to bark he would defend the vehicle and the door very aggressively. We have had a difficult time having friends of our son stop by for this reason. He is very intimidating and very loud. Although to this point it was all more bark than bite, he is avoided by all but one or two of our son’s friends.

About three weeks ago he started growling at our son. It was like just one day he wouldn’t want him in the same room with him. The dog would hide from the boy and he was visibly shaking. We tried to have the boy feed him some of his treats and the dog just would growl at him. We separated the two and it has been hit or miss ever since. Sometimes he would be fine and loving on the boy. Other times he would growl and move towards the boy. 

Fast forward another two weeks and he has started the same behavior with the wife. He will love her by kissing her and licking her like only these puppies can do and the next minute growl at her. Several minutes later he would sit next to her and lick her face then start growling at her again.

We LOVE this dog. He has NEVER been mistreated. He is loved, well fed and well exercised. Up until a few weeks ago I would say he is well adjusted. Fiercely protective of the home and when he is in the car but obedient and well behaved.

Now for the bad news. The dog bit our son. Fortunately it was not a bad bite but it wasn’t a nip and he did intend to do harm. He has been to his vet and there appears to be nothing obviously medically wrong with him. We are urgently trying to find an animal behaviorist to meet and hopefully give us an idea of what may be happening. The problem is that there are no openings in our area. My schedule keeps me away for weeks at a time. I cannot leave my home with the dog alone with my wife after he went after the boy. Our choices are limited. We will not rehome the dog and pass this problem onto another that may mistreat him for this horrible behavior. We do not want to put him down as it is an unthinkable thing to do if there is a chance we can figure out what is wrong. I am afraid the unthinkable may be what we need to do.

If anyone can give us information that will help us and our puppy please help.


----------



## middleofnowhere

My quick take on it is that he is 2 now & feeling his oats. But at the same time unsure of himself. (defensive [and testing what he can get away with] yet alternting with shaking.) He has now ramped it up a notch. 

It's a hard one to recommend training from a distance. What I would do right off the bat is remove all privileges. I would implement what I call "hard core nothing in life is free". For details on this, I'd google Bill Campbell's "earn-to-learn" - and hope it took you to his website for the good information posted there on this very technique. If nothing showed up on google, I'd go to the library & get his The New Better Behavior in Dogs. book. NOW.

Doggo would loose all privileges and the NILIF/earn-to-learn program would be followed by all members of the family. [In the initial 10 days or so, the dog gets fed, watered, let out & brought in. No eye contact, no rewards, no treats, no attention.] Things like being on the furniture are considered rewards. If he's been sleeping on the bed or on a chair, his butt hits the ground. etc. This is doggie boot camp without a fight.


----------



## MichaelE

I agree with that recommendation completely. Your dog is now testing the waters and it's time you pulled the life jacket off and make him sink or swim.

The problem with being the leader is that you are always being tested to see if you still rate being the leader. The dog has to be reminded that he/she is the follower, and NOT the leader.

Some dogs are harder than others to convince of this after they grow up.


----------



## atourya

MichaelE said:


> The problem with being the leader is that you are always being tested to see if you still rate being the leader. The dog has to be reminded that he/she is the follower, and NOT the leader.


This seems like it is it in a nutshell. Did your son's voice recently get deeper? Maybe he is interpreting that as a change in the structure of the pack. It seems like he think he's the boss when you are not around. 

My Belgian Shepherd tested me at the two year mark... would defy commands and get aggressive. Just remain consistent and restrict privileges and that should do the trick in a few days.

Maybe the poor guy is in heat. haha.


----------



## Seig

*Thank you*

We appreciate the help. The last thing we want to do is have anyone hurt including the animal. In addition to being heartbroken, my wife is very scared when he comes at her. He is so strong and very capable of serious damage. 

What do I do to get him to understand that this is unacceptable behavior. I refuse to hit him. Expecially with an agressive dog, voilence to correct violence doesn't seem the answer.

How do we correct this and immediately get him to understand his attacking will not be tolerated? I can have him on the leash when he does this and when I correct him he looks right through me. He acts like I am not even there. 

Yelling "no" no matter how loud or stern seems to have no effect. Pulling him back removes him from reach but he just lunges with more strength and ramps up the ferociousness. I have heard a 50/50 mixture of white vinager and water in a spray bottle onto his snout may help. Any thoughts?


----------



## Mooch

I don't think physical correction is the way to go. Best would be to avoid putting the dog in a situation where he can react. 

I'm surprised you said he reacted fearful toward your son first? Is he usually a fearful dog? Are you sure nothing happened? (even something as silly as your son stepping on his tail etc)

If he was my dog I'd be looking into some serious training classes, he seems to have worked out that he can make people afraid of him- which often then makes the dog more reactive because they feel they need to be in charge.
If he isn't neutered I'd be calling for an appointment right now to get him cut. It's not going to make things perfect but after a few weeks he won't have as much testosterone in his system which could help.

Definitely start with "noting in life is free" he sounds like he's had a lovely spoilt life so far.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

It may help if you describe in detail the bite incident with your son.

I would have also run a Thyroid test on the dog, as sometimes an out of whack thyroid can cause aggression issues.


----------



## Twyla

Keep in mind when beginning hard core NILIF - which is needed - there may be a temporary increase in the behavior, so be prepared for that.

While in the middle of one of these events, it is hard to remember but do your best to not 'pull back' on your dog, instead to the side. Pulling back will kick in his natural instincts to go forward - exactly where you don't want him to go. Instead, correct to the side and put him off balance.

Post where you are located. Someone may be familiar with an experienced trainer/behaviorist in your area.


----------



## Jax08

Any recent vaccines? Is he on any meds at all?


----------



## Seig

Great questopns. Please keep them comming. I will answer in order.

We are searching for the book Bill Cambells book and are reading up on NILIF and will be implementing it.

When you say removing the dog. Are we talking crating the dog? If so when? How often? Are we to place him in a room where he is separated from the family? Please explain.

The boy tells us he can not remember anything like stepping on his tail or anything mildly tramatic for the dog? I was with him the first time he showed any signs of agression. The kid doesn't lie. He doesn't even exaggerate. He knows what is at stake. We actually had him scheduled to be nuetered. Our vet while a proponent for nutering for many reasons but curbing agression is not one of them. He recommended taking the 400.00 and seeking the help of a behaviorist. We are doing that this morning. Nutering is not off the table but we hope to get the opinion of the behaviorist and combine that with the advice of our vet.

He has definately been spoiled. Totally spoiled. 

I will describe the bite incident after I answer the remaining questions.

Thyroid test? I will discuss this with our vet. We asked about any tests we could run; he said there were none outside the MRI. Which is 4,000.00 and may not show anything. We love him and would do what we can but we cannot afford 4K for a maybe if there are other things we can do to help him.

Pulling ot the side. Makes sense. Will do.

We are in Portland OR.

Biting...
THe boy walked in the door. There is a hallway where the dog sits to watch both doors. When Seig saw the boy he got up and ran towards him growling and snapping. Sam loudly told him "NO: and the dog slowed. I grabbed him by the collar and pulled him to the side to let the boy pass. Sam went to the kitchen and the dog to the living room. The dog walked into the kitchen a few minutes later and started growling again. As I moved towards the kitchen the dog lunged for the boy. Sam grabbed him and put his head on the floor. As I reached in to grab him by the collar Sam let go of the dog and he bit his hand. Two holes on his pinky finger to the bone.

Replying to a post above.

I am asking for help and do not mean to offend but defying commands and attacking seem a bit different. Is this a case of simply defying commands and progressed to where we are or something much more?


----------



## martinaa

Definitely make sure you eliminate health reasons.

Any trainer you find needs to be able to give your son and wife their confidence back. I may be reading too much into your comments but it sounds like they are understandably very fearful. If so they need to honestly assess whether they can ever completely put that fear away. A constant tester will never believe you are in charge if you don't believe it. It's mental, not physical.


----------



## wolfy dog

Portland , OR has a great clinic for this by a veterinary behaviorist:
Animal Behavior Clinic | Board Certified Animal Behavior Clinic in Portland, Oregon
And for heaven's sake, everybody: stop treating and talking about them as "Babies"!
In the meantime muzzle, work him hard (non-abusive) and crate him. This is plain dangerous.


----------



## martinaa

My bet - "put his head on the floor" is what triggered the bite. You have a hierarchy concious dog who feels his equal or lesser just attempted to pull rank on him. He was protecting his perceived position in the pack.


----------



## Seig

Agree on the no fear...letting him know we are not fearful and we are in command.

The issue for my wife is that again, I will be leaving for work soon. I am gone from the home overseas for a period of 30 days. This clearly is not something that can be "fixed" by the time I leave for work or even the next few months I am guessing. Leaving her in the home with Sieg alone is a frightening idea.

He is completely current on all vaccines and and his trifexis as well. He is extremely well cared for.

This is by all accounts a switch flipped and completely surprising and disheartening.

Any help is appreciated.


----------



## Jd414

My dog ever bit one of my children he would be gone no question 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Lilie

Seig said:


> About three weeks ago he started growling at our son. It was like just one day he wouldn’t want him in the same room with him. *The dog would hide from the boy and he was visibly shaking*. We tried to have the boy feed him some of his treats and the dog just would growl at him. We separated the two and it has been hit or miss ever since. *Sometimes he would be fine and loving on the boy. Other times he would growl and move towards the boy*.
> 
> Fast forward another two weeks and he has started the same behavior with the wife. He will love her by *kissing her and licking her like only these puppies can do and the next minute growl* at her. Several minutes later he would sit next to her and lick her face then start growling at her again.
> .


This behavior isn't 'testing the waters'. Testing the waters might involve the dog growling when asked to be removed from the couch. Or when you attempt to remove a toy / food. Not aggressive behavior that has no trigger.


----------



## LoveEcho

When they did a health eval, did they look for any signs of epilepsy, etc? 

Your description of the sort of lightswitch behavior makes me think of something seizure induced, or rage syndrome. 

On the other hand, the bite occurred after being pinned to the ground while in an already excited state. Hmmm....


----------



## Blanketback

Good luck with the behaviorist later today. There seems to be a disconnect in training theory going on - you say you don't want to hit him because you don't agree with using violence and yet you're telling us about your son pinning him. There's a problem. And also saying that the dog is very spoiled, which is another problem. Hopefully the behaviorist can work with your entire family to get things back on track.


----------



## billsharp

Sorry to hear of this problem. I'm no expert but I have a few thoughts.

Every time one of these threads starts there are always people who say get the thyroid tested. I don't ever recall seeing anyone post a reply saying "Oh, it was his thyroid! We got some medicine and the dog is back to his old self!" Not saying not to do it, just that I'd be real surprised if it anything other than behavioral.

Reading between the lines, I'd say that your dog is testing you. I get the feeling that you have spoiled him (as you admitted) and let him have his way often in areas where many would have chosen to discipline him (such as barking at your son's friends--since when does the dog choose who is welcome in your home?).

You refer to him as "your baby." I respectfully disagree. Babies can't crush your hand with one bite. Babies won't attack your son. This is a dog, an animal, and you and everyone in your family need to realize that and begin to treat him as such. 

You don't want to hit him (absolutely correct) but sometimes this attitude translates into a failure on the part of all in the family to be strong leaders --disciplinarians-- to the dog. As he matures he senses this weakness and asserts himself. 

He is apparently a strong-willed and dominant male (which is ok) but you have to relate to him as such. NILIF is a great start, but you have to change fundamentally how you relate to him. This doesn't mean that you can't be nice to him, but you have to maintain control--he has to know that even when you are hugging him, it is always, always on your terms. 

If he regains his respect for you and your family I suspect he will calm down and accept his rank as last in the pack of 4, and follow your lead on what goes on in your household. Good luck.


----------



## wolfy dog

By the way, when you have to leave, you cannot and should not leave your wife and son alone with the dog. I don't understand why that is even an option for you. He can maul both before you are back. Are you in contact with the breeder? Ask him if he can at least board him when you are gone. Then your family has an opportunity to see what normal life is like again.
And don't have anyone's face close to the dog's for obvious reasons.
Personally I would give this dog to someone else who can handle him and maybe get another breed. It is very hard for people who treat their animals like babies to suddenly become assertive dog trainers, especially if the dog knows he can take and has taken them on in the past.


----------



## Ocean

Neuter the dog NOW!

I'm surprised no one has focused on this. It can make a huge difference. (And it should not cost $400)

The 2 year old mark coincides with the increased testosterone and is the age when intact male dogs start to challenge the hierarchy.

It may not totally change the dynamics, you still need to do the NILIF, but I bet it makes a huge difference. 

If you have a GSD to protect your property and family, neutering does not lessen their ability or inclination to do so. If the dog is not being used for breeding or dog sports, now is the time for neutering. 

I never neuter puppies or young dogs but wait until all their growth is concluded and at 2 it has finished growing.

You say you are not home for long periods, are you sure your son has not been teasing or been physical with the dog before? Having two male teenagers in the house - human and dog - can sometimes create their own rank dynamics.

I know many male owners, I am one myself, are reluctant to neuter because they project on the dog.


----------



## GatorBytes

Seig said:


> Agree on the no fear...letting him know we are not fearful and we are in command.
> 
> The issue for my wife is that again, I will be leaving for work soon. I am gone from the home overseas for a period of 30 days. This clearly is not something that can be "fixed" by the time I leave for work or even the next few months I am guessing. Leaving her in the home with Sieg alone is a frightening idea.
> 
> *He is completely current on all vaccines and and his trifexis as well.* He is extremely well cared for.
> 
> This is by all accounts a switch flipped and completely surprising and disheartening.
> 
> Any help is appreciated.


Did this behaviour start post recent vaccine? He could be having a reaction, especially rabies...google "rabies miasm", essentially the vaccine if MLV can induce rabies type symptoms (aggression) and/or adjuvants can casue seizure type disorders - that along w/pesticide (trifexis)

*What are the possible side effects of Trifexis:* Side effects that may occur include vomiting. If vomiting occurs within one hour of administration, redose with another full dose. Other side effects may occur. Continue giving Trifexis chewable tablets and talk to your veterinarian if your pet experiences decreased appetite, lethargy or decreased activity, diarrhea, cough, increased thirst, vocalization, increased appetite, redness of the skin, hyperactivity and excessive salivation. Talk to your veterinarian about any side effect that seems unusual or especially bothersome to the pet.

*What should I discuss with my veterinarian before giving Trifexis to my pet:* Tell your veterinarian if you are planning on breeding your pet. Tell your veterinarian if your dog has a history of seizures (epilepsy).

NOW - if you didn't know of the potential for seizures, you couldn't advise

GSD also prone to MDR1 mutation (10% - this is a genetic mutation mostly in herding dogs)...this is a simple cheek swab that can be sent out and should be done before administering ANY HW/flea products - it can lead to seizure disorder and/or death


----------



## Seig

No, his last vaccines were months ago.

The behaviourist is the only one in the PNW and one of 60 in the US. He is booked out for weeks.

I don't know what to do...it is killing my wife as she has spent 24/7 with him his entire life. I am gone consistently for a month every/other. She now cannot walk him, hold him, love on him. It's extremely upsetting. 

Again, I realize something has had to occur but in terms of from our, the handlers standpoint, nothing has changed. I appreciate that overly loving or overly paying attention to him may have triggered something along with his being 19mos old but nothing has changed in terms of feeding, playing, walking, exercising or sleep.

If we cannot get an "emergency" appointment with the behaviourist I absolutely have no idea for what to do. I am not comfortable and will not leave him with my son and wife.

This is absolutely heart wrenching. He is such a good boy and so lovable.


----------



## wolfy dog

Seig said:


> If we cannot get an "emergency" appointment with the behaviourist I absolutely have no idea for what to do. I am not comfortable and will not leave him with my son and wife.


Board him until you get in this office. Forget that he is "such a good boy and loveable". He is dangerous and you need to see him for what he is right now.
Neutering will not fix this but he should never be bred. You need to protect your family and put their safety first before you will regret it and we see you on the news.


----------



## Jax08

Lilie said:


> This behavior isn't 'testing the waters'. Testing the waters might involve the dog growling when asked to be removed from the couch. Or when you attempt to remove a toy / food. Not aggressive behavior that has no trigger.


This is where I'm at. If the vet didn't even run a blood test for thyroid, then find a new vet. There are so many medical conditions that could cause sudden, unpredictable aggression.


----------



## gsdraven

Seig said:


> About three weeks ago he started growling at our son.* It was like just one day he wouldn’t want him in the same room with him. The dog would hide from the boy and he was visibly shaking.* We tried to have the boy feed him some of his treats and the dog just would growl at him. We separated the two and it has been hit or miss ever since. Sometimes he would be fine and loving on the boy. Other times he would growl and move towards the boy.


This is fear of your son. Something happened in their relationship that caused mistrust and the pinning certainly didn't help. 

Lots and lots of good advice, and a little bit of bad mixed in. Does your dog ever seem to space out or look right through you? When he growls at your wife does he seem "different" or off and then it's like he's normal again?

When you talk with the behaviorist, see if they can recommend someone you can work with if they don't have an appointment available. Since you mentioned that s/he is only of 60 in the states, I assume you are looking at only those with a certain "credential". There are many capable behaviorists that don't have certifications but would be able to help you (and there are many that won't be able to) so do your homework, ask for references of a case similiar to yours and interview the behaviorist before committing. More popular and more expensive doesn't mean better.


----------



## Ocean

Neutering will fix a lot of it. You don't lose anything, it's a relatively cheap and simple procedure that any vet can do. You don't need to wait until your regular vet has an opening. You can literally pick up the yellow pages and find one to do it.

Right now, your wife and son are afraid of the dog which reinforces the notion in his head that he is above them in rank.

Board him while you are gone. That is also the start of the NILIF process and everyone can have a fresh start when you are back. Right now, everyone needs to calm down. Humans and dog.

Raising a dominant GSD like a human baby does not work. Most GSD owners, including people in this forum, have never really owned or even met a truly dominant GSD. Your dog may or may not be one. I'm also betting that something happens when you are not home between your teen-age son and the dog that you are not aware of yet.


----------



## Courtney

Lilie said:


> This behavior isn't 'testing the waters'. Testing the waters might involve the dog growling when asked to be removed from the couch. Or when you attempt to remove a toy / food. Not aggressive behavior that has no trigger.


Lilie, I agree with you. I highly doubt this has anything to do with bratty behaviour, pulling rank, being intact, etc.

For a two year old dog that has been with the family since he was 10 weeks old to all of a sudden start acting aggressive to his people is very odd.

I cannot help but to go straight to wanting to rule out medical. A full blood panel ran. The vet should understand and want to support this testing.

Tick-borne diseases, thyroid, vaccine reactions...

If he gets a clean bill of health...what a mess with this type of behavior


----------



## GatorBytes

Reading your post about the $4000 MRI

DEFINATELY do the MDR1 cheek swab test - it's less than $100.00 - your vet should know about this, if not, then google and provide the info.

Your dog could very well be reacting to the trifexis...

Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab at the College of Veterinary Medicine

DOn't be duped by the clinical studies of 136 dogs (approx.) and having no real adverse reactions - these studies are done by the drug companies who profit - the real stories/reactions come from the thousands and thousands of adverse reactions on actual family pets


----------



## martinaa

Exactly what Ocean said. 

The more you share the more clear it seems that the dog has already won the mental contest. He knows it and he knows they know it. There is no physical game and someone will get seriously hurt if they try to make it one. That includes pinning him to the floor as you already found out.

It's going to be a hard decision but you have to honestly assess it. Do you have the money to work through medical possibilities, boarding, training. If not you really need to change your focus from fixing the problem to figuring out where he goes next.


----------



## wolfy dog

A previous dog at 8 years old developed all the symptoms of Rabies Vaccinosis. All his life (he was born here in a foster litter) he was a sweet dog. Then at 7 years old he started to become fear aggressive (serious attacks) to strange dogs, then to familiar dogs in the neighborhood, then to his own canine pack members ( he attacked an old and frail dog that he had known all his life) and then he became petrified of me. He fled in his crate when he saw me in the morning. This dog has been clicker trained and never been hurt!! In the meantime he had been on Reconcile and other drugs but nothing did anything. I had to keep him separated from my own other dogs. Then one day I put his bowl down and he looked at me with a very scary (green glow) look in his eyes. I then decided that it was time to have him euthanized to prevent a tragedy. I wasn't willing to put anyone in jeopardy. It was heartbreaking and still is, but I never hesitated after making that decision. I am sure it was the result of the rabies vaccines throughout his life. The other dogs never mourned him, they actually played hard that day. The vet never wanted to discuss it.......


----------



## katieliz

sent you a private message, do you know how to retrieve them? would only like to add to my pm that the trifexis and vaccinations can surely wreck havoc and cause neurological issues.


----------



## Ocean

Who is the breeder of the dog?

Assuming that the breeder has a lot of experience with GSDs, he/she may be able to give you better advice than an Internet forum.

Sometimes, people are reluctant to go back to a breeder because they would have to admit mistakes they made raising a puppy or even physical/mental abuse that has been done to the dog.
If the breeder is a reputable one, they should be willing to take the dog back and rehome it.

Sometimes, families and dogs are just not a good fit for each other. Most times, it is not the dog that's the problem.


----------



## wolfstraum

Has a vet checked the dog? Blood work? X rays? was his behavior secure adn confident from the beginning? I have known of a few animals with physical issues that caused behavior changes....

Lee


----------



## Seig

No blood work or xrays. He has been to the doc but vet did nothing short of saying we need to get him to a behaviourist immediately.

Our vet has seen Sieg since he was 10 weeks. He also had GSD in his family for years.

It concerns me he has not wanted to do any blood work however.

Something I forgot to mention...on Friday, the first day of his aggressive growl to the wife, but before, he jumped our 5-6' fence. He has never done this. Luckily, after alerting the police, etc., he came home. I was gone, my wife thought we'd lost him forever. This was a first.


----------



## katieliz

can you confirm here on the thread that you were able to access my private message to you. no need to comment, just acknowledge...sometimes new people are unaware of how the private message feature works. thanks.


----------



## Sunflowers

I read your post this morning, and have been thinking about this all day. I'm very disturbed about something like this occurring with a beloved family GSD. I have been thinking about what I would do in your situation. First of all I want have a talk with your son. It stood out to me that the dog was looking at him hiding and shaking. This happened overnight, yes? Why do you think that could be? And why do you think he says he doesn't remember if anything happened?
Second of all, I would call your local police K9 unit and ask for a veterinary recommendation from them. I would want a vet who is very familiar with the GSD breed and who would know what to check for health-wise.
All of a sudden he is fearful, aggressive, and trying to jump the fence. Something is not right with this dog in the head, and it doesn't matter what the reason is. At this time he is dangerous, and perhaps he needs to be boarded somewhere while you get down to the bottom of what is going on. I wish you the best of luck, hope you keep us posted on what is going on with your dog.

Sent from my Verizon iPhone


----------



## raylind

We all love our dogs,but your family's welfare should always come first.Part of the problem might be the fact that you are away for extended periods of time and is stepping up to assume your position as leader.Get rid of him before there is a disaster.


----------



## middleofnowhere

Sending you a PM with a recommended trainer.


----------



## selzer

I do not think this has to do with him being intact. It would not be like a lightswitch going off. That screams medical to me and not behavioral. There are many conditions this could be, and where to start would be the full blood panel. I have heard thyroid, vitamin B deficiency, etc. 

The blood work can also indicate if there might be other issues. 

It probably won't show if it is epilepsy or what seems to be closely related, rage synrome. 

There is a possibility of a brain tumor or brain swelling due to encephilitis or meningitis. 

Vaccine-related issues can take months to appear, and veterinarians do not generally want to consider the possibility. I am not familiar with the meds that you have him on, so I guess that is another possibility. 

A physical problem can be as simple as giving him a thyroid pill, and it can mean the dog should be released from his pain. But if it is physical, then all the behavioral, leadership, dominance stuff and removing the testosterone will simply not help whatsoever.

If it is behavioral, then a misdiagnosis on the type of aggression can be fatal. I think that I would definitely get second and maybe a third opinion with a vet, but trying to go along the behavior path, I think you want to be very careful who you work with. You will definitely want to go with someone that you can find excellent references and referrals. 

I am sorry you are going through this.


----------



## Debbieg

I completely agree with Sue (Selzer) I do not think this is just a spoiled dog trying to dominate the family. I don't think neutering will have any effect on this. From what you have said he does not seem to be resource guarding or fearful and it is not normal for a GSD, no matter how spoiled to turn on family members

The fact that one minute he is aggressive with family members and then the next minute fine with them also seems like a medical issue to me.

I am very sorry you are going through this too. Have you contacted the breeder to see if any of your dogs litter mates are having similar problems? That might be a good place to start.

I encourage you to rule out any medical cause before going to a trainer or behaviorist.


----------



## katieliz

i just have to say that is an educated and well thought out post sue. thank you for sharing that point of view with the op. my response via pm was hurried and assumed that the medical issues had been already appropriately addressed.


----------



## puffswami

I didn't read all the posts but you may want to buy a dog mouth guard?? as long as he is going through this phase. Like the kind police dogs sometimes wear. Secondly, I have a feeling that your dog is trying to dominate your son. One of my dogs tries to dominate little children because my other dog, my cat, and I all totally dominate him. Have your son be very firm with him and even pin him on his back if he gets aggressive. My dogs sort of give in if I lay on top of them when they are aggressive. 

I have dog-sat a GSD that was legitimately scary as F! In fact, he almost attacked me when I tried to put him in his crate and this dog was way powerful. I immediately became very aggressive/dominant myself and coerced him into his crate. His owner couldn't believe that he looked at me like a burgler wearing a strip-steak necklace, it is the only time I thought "this is it" face to face with a dog. It could have been really ugly. 

So sometimes GSDs just are stubborn unless the dominance of the relationship is clearly established. Your dog is probably testing his boundries with all close parties.


----------



## Zookeep

puffswami said:


> I didn't read all the posts but you may want to buy a dog mouth guard?? as long as he is going through this phase. Like the kind police dogs sometimes wear. Secondly, I have a feeling that your dog is trying to dominate your son. One of my dogs tries to dominate little children because my other dog, my cat, and I all totally dominate him. *Have your son be very firm with him and even pin him on his back if he gets aggressive. * My dogs sort of give in if I lay on top of them when they are aggressive.
> 
> .


No, No, No. Don't do this.


----------



## x11

err warning - "Have your son be very firm with him and even pin him on his back if he gets aggressive." this could result in a kid with some big holes in face that he wasn't born with - forget the ceasar milan stuff, thats best left for dominating non-dominant spoilt pets, not dominant dogs...just sayin, hate to see a kid get bit from some internet advice.


----------



## x11

beat me to it. glad i am not the only one that feels this way.


----------



## LoveEcho

puffswami said:


> I didn't read all the posts but you may want to buy a dog mouth guard?? as long as he is going through this phase. Like the kind police dogs sometimes wear. Secondly, I have a feeling that your dog is trying to dominate your son. One of my dogs tries to dominate little children because my other dog, my cat, and I all totally dominate him. *Have your son be very firm with him and even pin him on his back if he gets aggressive.* My dogs sort of give in if I lay on top of them when they are aggressive.
> .


Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT do this with this dog. He has a hair trigger right now, whatever the cause, and has shown himself to be extremely unpredictable. 

The dog bit the OP's son AFTER he pinned him. The dog is displaying bizarre, erratic, and sometimes fearful behavior, which is in all likelihood NOT a dominance issue. The "lights are on but nobody's home" demeanor that the OP describes when the dog randomly behaves aggressively screams of something medical. Dominance issues and "testing the waters" typically have a pretty consistent pattern of behavior. 

Pinning an aggressive dog when you don't know the cause of the aggression (or really, at all), is not a wise thing to do, and in this case is asking for a full-on attack.


----------



## Sunflowers

Absolutely not.

The 17 year old already pinned this dog, and it went badly.

To the original poster,
So very sorry this is happening to you. Having this occur with a dog you have raised from a puppy must be devastating. 
I hope you can find a solution. 



puffswami said:


> I didn't read all the posts but you may want to buy a dog mouth guard?? as long as he is going through this phase. Like the kind police dogs sometimes wear. Secondly, I have a feeling that your dog is trying to dominate your son. One of my dogs tries to dominate little children because my other dog, my cat, and I all totally dominate him. Have your son be very firm with him and even pin him on his back if he gets aggressive. My dogs sort of give in if I lay on top of them when they are aggressive.
> 
> I have dog-sat a GSD that was legitimately scary as F! In fact, he almost attacked me when I tried to put him in his crate and this dog was way powerful. I immediately became very aggressive/dominant myself and coerced him into his crate. His owner couldn't believe that he looked at me like a burgler wearing a strip-steak necklace, it is the only time I thought "this is it" face to face with a dog. It could have been really ugly.
> 
> So sometimes GSDs just are stubborn unless the dominance of the relationship is clearly established. Your dog is probably testing his boundries with all close parties.


----------



## puffswami

I meant pin him down while the dog was wearing a mouth guard. It works for me but I am not really scared of my own dogs so that could explain my bravado. Plus it always ends with me kissing their noses anyways. 

Don't take my advice (even though it works for me)!

BTW: I will say don't ever try to trick your GSD. I once threw a ball and after my GSD started to chase the ball, I tried to run the opposite direction and hide behind a tree. Well, he ignored the ball and chased me down, leapt into the air and sunk his teeth into my arm. I would say he is definitely attached to me!


----------



## Draugr

I'm dealing with the same kind of thing with my dog. The way you describe it, like a light switch, is exactly the same thing. One minute fine, then, BAM, insane, ridiculously out of nowhere aggressive biting/snapping, then just as fast as it came on, BAM, gone, and he's just fine.

His problems showed up almost immediately after a rabies vaccine, and then tapered off after a couple months; now the problems only show up every few months. This last time however he did bite someone bad enough to need stitches. I don't know if I can really blame the vaccine or not, but the timing is suspicious. Did you notice ANY altered behavior in the weeks following his last rabies shot?

Rage syndrome or some bizarre form of epilepsy are what I'm thinking too (for mine and yours), but I run into the same problems you do, there - it's pretty much impossible to test for those. If it is epilepsy, the seizure only triggers every few months, making it nearly impossible to catch and definitively diagnose. Even if it is more often (as it seems to be in your case), it isn't often enough to catch on a test.

Has the vet given him a physical? Perhaps something is hurting him, and he is misdirecting the pain? He may just have enough respect for you that it is holding whatever medical condition is causing this at bay - that's why I suspect I don't see this behavior out of my own dog directed at me, but I do see it toward my family. It's not that he isn't bonded to them at all, he is - he's just most tightly bonded to me.

Thyroid is another possibility but I'd think you'd be seeing other symptoms of that too. Are his nails brittle at all, even slightly, has his coat gotten any dryer?

I don't think it is an intact male issue, either. You would see more patterned aggression, it would be normal behavior for him.

I would be concerned about what your son did, too. He says he can't remember, and then all of the sudden this dog is cowering in fear? But was fine with your family before. However if it was something your son did, I wouldn't think the problems would show up with your wife, too...

I wish our dogs could talk .

Before yours attacks, does he do the thousand-mile stare? I've noticed that in mine once or twice before an incident. It is like he isn't even there.

One thing you can do is that if you start noticing warning signs - even if they are things that 99% of the time never lead to an incident - is get him into obedience mode. That has worked pretty well for us. Puppy pushups - sit, down, sit, up, sit, down, sit, up, etc. Shake, touch, etc, any tricks he knows. Dogs tend to enjoy doing their obedience tricks, get him in a different frame of mind. Emotions have chemical effects, even if this is entirely a medical problem, there may be behavioral things that are exacerbating the underlying condition.

When you are not around he needs to be crated in a room that your wife and son do not go in. This may be difficult for your wife but this is how things work with me and my dog. He is not around the family at all when I am not around, as a solid 80% of the incidents occurred when I was not present. Incidents may be rare, but I'm not taking any chances.

It is possible having him neutered may have an effect, but I haven't done this with mine because I worry about what kind of effect that might be. I don't know what is wrong with him and making a major hormonal change like that is going to have a many-faceted effect. And it's not like I can just put his balls back if something goes wrong. Maybe try testosterone blockers? I'm not saying that's the sole issue, but until you get a definitive diagnosis you may want to see what might be exacerbating the real issue.


----------



## Sunflowers

puffswami said:


> I meant pin him down while the dog was wearing a mouth guard. It works for me but I am not really scared of my own dogs so that could explain my bravado. Plus it always ends with me kissing their noses anyways.
> 
> Don't take my advice (even though it works for me)!
> 
> BTW: I will say don't ever try to trick your GSD. I once threw a ball and after my GSD started to chase the ball, I tried to run the opposite direction and hide behind a tree. Well, he ignored the ball and chased me down, leapt into the air and sunk his teeth into my arm. I would say he is definitely attached to me!


Correct.
Your advice should not be taken.


----------



## LoveEcho

puffswami said:


> I meant pin him down while the dog was wearing a mouth guard. It works for me but I am not really scared of my own dogs so that could explain my bravado. Plus it always ends with me kissing their noses anyways.
> 
> Don't take my advice (even though it works for me)!


It may have worked for you and for your dog, but this is an entirely different situation. Pinning a dog who is behaving aggressively for reasons that are not dominance issues (i.e. fear or medical reasons) isn't just asking for a bite, it's going to make the problem worse. 


OP, I would still vote for having a blood workup, check for thyroid issues, etc. If it's neurological, they probably won't be able to find it. I definitely think Draugr has a good point in being wary of the hormone swings that come with neutering. Does he have any other issues that maybe you thought were allergies, skin problems, dull coat, etc? When he starts the growling/staring, is there anything at all that breaks his "zone out"? 

I really don't think, if your son did something accidentally to make him fearful, he would be exhibiting it in such a way... to your wife, so randomly, so unpredictably, and then be instantly fine. 

I'm so sorry that you're going through this.


----------



## gsdraven

puffswami said:


> I meant pin him down while the dog was wearing a mouth guard. It works for me but I am not really scared of my own dogs so that could explain my bravado. Plus it always ends with me kissing their noses anyways.
> 
> *Don't take my advice (even though it works for me)!*
> 
> BTW: I will say don't ever try to trick your GSD. I once threw a ball and after my GSD started to chase the ball, I tried to run the opposite direction and hide behind a tree. Well, he ignored the ball and chased me down, leapt into the air and sunk his teeth into my arm. I would say he is definitely attached to me!


Absolutely do not take this advice. If it works for you, why do you need to keep doing it? All you are doing is creating more aggression and creating constant conflict between you and your dog(s). Not how most of us like to interact with other beings.


----------



## Seig

Ok, an update. To everyone with sound advice/opinions, thank you. I do think someone in here many threads ago said it best however, some think of themselves as pros or behaviourists or even know it alls. The bottom line is every single dog is different just like humans and there is no way to get inside their heads. This is not a forum for challenging an accusation such as I will most likely find out my son did something to set the dog off. When someone is desperate for help for the love and in the case life of their pet, it would serve all best to assume what the writer is writing is honest so that there is no wasted time.

Draugr, I'm sorry for your case. It is heart wrenching. Our most recent, Seig was loving on us last night before bed and then switch-growled at my wife.

We spent hours on this all day yesterday. His doctor ruled out several possibilities (thyroid, blood work, etc) as he has seen Seig consistently and then more due to an injury, anxiety as a puppy, dry skin...typical GSD things. He has seen him 4x in the past month. I'm going with his vet on this. As far as Trifexis, w/o remembering exactly how he explained it to me, there is a drug in there which is specifically in there to prevent what the suggestions in the threads were concerned with.

He will be neutered this morning ($333) and has an appointment with the behaviourist tomorrow at 11am ($260/hr x 2 hrs + $150 emergency appointment. It's not inexpensive when we are simply guessing, again, no one can know what's made this extreme change happen for Seig. But hopefully it's money well spent. $1000 to keep our family pet would be well spent. $10,000 to KNOW he will be his original personality with no aggression toward his family would be better spent. We are all guessing in this.

A lot of you had great suggestions and really, all of yesterday was just heart breaking thinking we weren't going to be able to keep him (alive). We appreciate the help and of course will update. I'm sure Draugr will only be the first behind our post. Hopefully just a few but it's scary, it's sad and it's so confusing when nothing in his world has changed. 

Thanks again for all the help.

Draugr please let us know what you decide to do...what your thoughts are.


----------



## Seig

Sorry, no, do not know how to view PM. Again, yesterday was a rush to find help/opinions.

Also, it is definitely not a resource/food thing...we used to laugh, like within the last month that we are the only 3 humans in this world who could get down on our knees and kiss the dog while he was eating.

It is an extreme switch. It is not something my son or wife has done (as in consciously aware of). To the extreme he is spoiled. It would serve the thread readers and people who may encounter the exact situation better to believe us when we say that so we can get to the bottom of it. If we want to focus on the person or blame or cause, if anything it would be spoiling. 

I agree with another poster---the fact that I travel on/off 30 days every other month I believe could have something to do with this. It began with the son the day I got back from my longest trip at work and with my wife the day before I got back from a small 2 week trip. He may potentially be thinking, "what do mom and brother do with dad?" I have no idea, it's a thought.

We'll update after neutering/behaviourist.

THANK YOU EVERYONE


----------



## wolfy dog

If he is neutered this morning (does the therapist know about this or maybe advised this?). I was thinking that he would like to see him the way he was and not drowsy and in pain from surgery. Just wondering, no criticism here. 
I wish you good luck, it is heartbreaking. Please keep us informed as more of us are dealing with this.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Seig, In the upper right hand corner, you will see Private messages. Click on that to see yours.


----------



## Sunflowers

wolfy dog said:


> If he is neutered this morning (does the therapist know about this or maybe advised this?). I was thinking that he would like to see him the way he was and not drowsy and in pain from surgery. Just wondering, no criticism here.
> I wish you good luck, it is heartbreaking. Please keep us informed as more of us are dealing with this.


I agree with this. I don't see how the behaviorist could get a good handle on exactly what is going on less than 24 hours after surgery and when the dog is on pain medication and with a cone on his head.


----------



## Seig

So we dropped the pup off for neutering. Wife did insist/ask for thyroid test as they are doing blood work regardless. 

As far as taking Seig a day after neutering and an altered/drugged state, we'd thought of that and asked the doctors clinician. We were assured it will not interfere with his assessment. With 4 years medical and another 4 years on the canines psyche, we can only hope its true. 

We will update.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Something triggered this. You say that it all started after he jumped the fence. It is very possible (even likely) that something happened to him after he jumped the fence. Perhaps he received an electric shock or some sort of injury. Perhaps he was injured by a boy who was around the same age as your son. Perhaps he received a blow to his head and now how swelling in his brain. Who knows? The vet should have considered every angle though. 

No matter how much you spoil a dog they are not going to all of a sudden start growling at and biting you. Then there is the fear factor and then there is the factor that it is not just one person, it is now two people in his immediate family. 

I think you are wasting a considerable amount of money taking him to the behaviorist right after he was neutered. 

However, please write _everything_ up in advance, in a timeline and ask everyone in the family to contribute their perspective. 

Finally, just because the vet has been seeing this dog since he was a puppy does not mean that he it is impossible for him to miss something.


----------



## LoveEcho

Seig said:


> We spent hours on this all day yesterday. His doctor ruled out several possibilities (thyroid, blood work, etc) as he has seen Seig consistently and then more due to an injury, anxiety as a puppy, dry skin...typical GSD things. He has seen him 4x in the past month. I'm going with his vet on this. As far as Trifexis, w/o remembering exactly how he explained it to me, there is a drug in there which is specifically in there to prevent what the suggestions in the threads were concerned with.


Honestly, I really think you should find a second vet for a second opinion. Aside from the fact that it's worth doing anyways in cases with bizarre behavior, no vet worth their salt would rule out things that can only be dx'd through blood work on the grounds that they've known the dog since he was a puppy. And the complications from trifexis have been pretty well documented. And telling you that it's perfectly OK to take a drugged dog for a behavioral analysis doesn't really make sense to me either. 

Because my vet has known my dog since he was a puppy, if I described this kind of behavior to him, he would be putting him through the wringer trying to find a medical cause.


----------



## FlyAway

Seig said:


> No blood work or xrays. He has been to the doc but vet did nothing short of saying we need to get him to a behaviourist immediately.


I think you need a new vet. Blood work and a full exam should have been the first thing. You can't correct with a behaviorist something that is medical.


----------



## Seig

Clarifications:

Did NOT happen after jumped fence. First growled at son 3/12, jumped fence very early am 3/29, then first aggression with wife late 3/29.

Vet did NOT say he could be analyzed fine w/o worry about the drugs after neutering. The behaviourist said this.

He IS having blood work analyzed.

Thanks to all again


----------



## Dextersmom

Oh my goodness Seig, your story has brought tears to my eyes. I can only imagine your heartbreak and frustration at having the dog you have loved and raised, turn so unexpectedly. 
I do believe that there is some solid advice in this thread, but I also want to give you credit for the lengths you are going to, to have this resolved. It is clear that this is a matter close to your heart and that you will do whatever it takes. I know some dog owners who would have given up long ago. 
I truly believe that you and your dog deserve a positive outcome, and I wish you and your family all the best in restoring the relationship and balance that you knew before. 
Please keep us posted. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Courtney

I honestly would be worried about having him go through a surgery, under anesthesia when appropiate health testing (IMO) has not been done yet to rule out any medical issues.

My comment has nothing to do with my personal feeling on neutering, everyone does what they feel is best in that regard. But is this surgery absolutely necessary right now?


----------



## selzer

I understand going with what your vet suggests, and trusting in the education, experience, and licensing procedure a vet has to go through to practice. 

I would not want to be in your shoes. 

I hope that you can find something that will help.


----------



## Seig

Thank you again for recent posts.

Couple of notes: pup is/was very aggressive to docs/assistants at clinic. Each time, its MOM he goes to. This gets her crying immediately. For such a fierce protector, he wants his mama in these environments yet has growled at her in the last few days. It's so confusing, comforting, upsetting all at once. But for my wife to have this aggressive barking fiercely at the docs cower behind mama sure made my wife feel "normal" again. 

Blood work will be done by today. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Draugr

Hopefully you see some improvement from the neuter, but keep in mind that will take months to show up as the testosterone gradually settles out to castrate levels.

I haven't ever heard of a neuter making problems with aggression, no matter the source, worse, so perhaps my worry is unfounded. Either way, hope you get to the bottom of this.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with mine yet. I'm just...I don't know, so lost. These incidents get further and further apart all the time which just makes it more and more difficult to test for, and more and more difficult to explain to a vet as to why it's different than the ACTUAL behavioral problems he has at the vet. This is not something I'm content with just hoping it "goes away on its own" but...ugh, I don't know. Best of luck with yours. Hopefully they find something. The frequency with which yours is displaying this behavior may make it easier for them to find something to treat.


----------



## Muskeg

The OP certainly loves this dog and is doing everything he can to help remedy this situation. Good for him! 

However, I don't think this is medical or out of the blue. Five things stuck out at me:

1. The dog went to the vet for anxiety well prior to these aggressive incidents.
2. The dog has always acted very aggressively at the vet.
3. The dog has always acted very aggressively towards visitors.
4. The dog seems to be aggressive to generally subordinate family members or less dominate ones- wife and kids- not to the male adult. 

It's not that unusual for a German Shepherd to take control if the family treats him like a baby. Shoving a GSD (or many dogs) on the ground when he is already in a over-excited state of mind often leads to a bite. The dog got away with it once- it got him what he wanted (the kid backed off) and so he's trying that again.

I'm guessing he isn't really comfortable with all the babying. Some dogs like it, some don't. While I need to be able to handle my dogs without them biting me, I also understand that not all dogs like to get all snuggly- kissy-faced. They're dogs. You acting like a subordinate- my younger female dog often licks my older females face in greeting as submissive gesture- is confusing.

And yeah, my younger female dog gets told off with a growl and a snap when she persists in too much face licking to the older female. Nothing like a bite- but the older dog does tell her enough already in no uncertain terms. And the younger dog respects that.

I think you have a confused dog on your hands that is coming into adulthood and feeling his oats.

I highly doubt there is anything medical going on. Good on you for seeing a behaviorist. I applaud your efforts to in caring for your dog!


----------



## RubyTuesday

As noted in many of the posts this is a confounding, deeply troubling situation on many levels. Assuming that the OP's assessment is accurate I'd agree that this is far more than the emergence of male brattiness or 'pushing rank'. Something is seriously awry in this dog's head. The behavior described sounds potentially dangerous.

Did it emerge suddenly or has it evolved more slowly than Seig realized?
Is there a medical basis? Should Seig seek a 2nd medical opinion?
How dangerous is the dog & is his behavior escalating?
How can a behaviorist assess a doped up dog?
To what extent does fear play a role in this?
Why does the behavior seem to come & go? 
What, if any, are the triggers?

Seig, I applaud your efforts & hope that you'll be successful in resolving this. Have you talked to his breeder? S/he might have valuable insights on what exactly is going on, how best to handle it & some additional info on your dog's lines & ancestry. I'd suggest taking a conversational route so the breeder realizes that you want to undestand, you're all on the same team & you're not accusing or blaming.

Again, I wish you & your family the best of luck with this. Please keep us informed as to what you learn.


----------



## GatorBytes

Seig said:


> As far as *Trifexis*, w/o remembering exactly how he explained it to me, *there is a drug in there which is specifically in there to prevent what the suggestions in the threads were concerned with.*


Hogwash. Sorry. The 2 active ingredients in trifexis are just as toxic as any pesticide in any other HW prevention.

Google "trifexis adverse reactions and read page after page of forums, blogs and facebook warnings - dogs die, dogs have seizures, behaviour/aggression.

If this is NOT behavioural based on a dog who is ascerting dominance (but the trembling issue - also noted as side effect) would not be dominance aggression....so if NOT a temperment - then guarantee it is Iatrogenic caused i.e. vax. and/or trifexis


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I found this re: Trifexis, certainly not saying this is the problem at all, but thought you might want to check it out
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=233950610012938&id=110886408938194


----------



## Courtney

JakodaCD OA said:


> I found this re: Trifexis, certainly not saying this is the problem at all, but thought you might want to check it out
> https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=233950610012938&id=110886408938194


Wow thank you for sharing this. My neighbor was considering Trifexis, I will share this with her.


----------



## Seig

*Update*

Puppy has ZERO thyroid issues. And no balls now :shocked:

Behaviourist tomorrow.

Oh, the pain meds will not affect him tomorrow based on his barking at strangers on the drive home from the hospital.

Mama has been kissing him and getting kisses in return...normal _for now_

Thanks again everyone! Will keep you posted. I can't imagine this won't happen to another and yes...it is a 180...


----------



## Seig

GatorBytes

Thanks for the input on Trifexis. I was more rushed with the "emergencies" than the research. I will absolutely research the situation. 

Wife has had two goldens who lived well into teens with zero trifexis...great dogs. I'm sure there is a lot more to research in all this.

We just want him back to his old self and happy.

Thanks again...will research AND ask behaviourist.


----------



## Sunflowers

Muskeg said:


> The OP certainly loves this dog and is doing everything he can to help remedy this situation. Good for him!
> 
> However, I don't think this is medical or out of the blue. Five things stuck out at me:
> 
> 1. The dog went to the vet for anxiety well prior to these aggressive incidents.
> 2. The dog has always acted very aggressively at the vet.
> 3. The dog has always acted very aggressively towards visitors.
> 4. The dog seems to be aggressive to generally subordinate family members or less dominate ones- wife and kids- not to the male adult.
> 
> It's not that unusual for a German Shepherd to take control if the family treats him like a baby. Shoving a GSD (or many dogs) on the ground when he is already in a over-excited state of mind often leads to a bite. The dog got away with it once- it got him what he wanted (the kid backed off) and so he's trying that again.
> 
> I'm guessing he isn't really comfortable with all the babying. Some dogs like it, some don't. While I need to be able to handle my dogs without them biting me, I also understand that not all dogs like to get all snuggly- kissy-faced. They're dogs. You acting like a subordinate- my younger female dog often licks my older females face in greeting as submissive gesture- is confusing.
> 
> And yeah, my younger female dog gets told off with a growl and a snap when she persists in too much face licking to the older female. Nothing like a bite- but the older dog does tell her enough already in no uncertain terms. And the younger dog respects that.
> 
> I think you have a confused dog on your hands that is coming into adulthood and feeling his oats.
> 
> I highly doubt there is anything medical going on. Good on you for seeing a behaviorist. I applaud your efforts to in caring for your dog!


Good that the surgery went well.

Based on the clues that you have been dropping, summarized in the above post, I do agree with Muskeg.

This was not a 180. 
He has been aggressive his whole life, and is now an aggressive adult. He has not been corrected for his aggression and barking, ever, from what I have read.

Please, please have your wife reconsider all the kissing and babying.

This is not a cuddly little kid in a fur coat.
It is a strong male German Shepherd *Dog* and all of you need to begin to treat him as such.
He deserves to be treated like what he is. I hope your behaviorist is a good one.


----------



## middleofnowhere

I, too, am disheartened that your wife is now back to babying Mr. Too Big for his Britches. This is NOT helping. But I'll let the behavioralist tell you that! 
Good luck with the behavioralist (I sent you a followup PM before I saw the thread.) 

For the general readership here - has everyone forgotten that it takes several months for testostrone to work its way out of the system? The ballectomy is not going to have immediate results.


----------



## RebelGSD

It sounds like this is a weak nerved dog that has been babied and did not get proper training and leadership. A dog that does not have leadership and feels forced to take a leadership role often turns aggressive under the burden of too much responsibility. 

I suggest boarding him in a kennel where people don't have to handle him while you are away. After that reintroducing to the family under different terms, NILIF, and a serious training program. With a trainer exoerienced with working dogs like shepherds. Not a poodle trainer.


----------



## Twyla

At the moment your dog is still under some medication. Your wife *must* keep her face clear of him!!

Some will boo me on this - in some cases, rare but does happen, a s/n will increase the aggression. My dog and a couple of others on here have experienced this.

During your eval, discuss with the behaviorist if they offer a board/train option. Will be pricey, but the safest for the family and your dog.


----------



## x11

GatorBytes said:


> ...*Hogwash*...


haha, not a funny topic but that is a funny word. 

i'm stealing it


----------



## GatorBytes

JakodaCD OA said:


> I found this re: Trifexis, certainly not saying this is the problem at all, but thought you might want to check it out
> https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=233950610012938&id=110886408938194


WOW!

and 2 of 3 GSD's in same household...so many comments about vet doesn't think its the pill

poor doggies...it's scary


----------



## GatorBytes

x11 said:


> haha, not a funny topic but that is a funny word.
> 
> i'm stealing it


LOL..by all means


----------



## x11

i really like springing "old world" words on people in heated debates and am trying to get a collection, i have a lot of what i think are irish descent words, the conversations always take a pause which cracks me up, some words/phrases i got and not even sure what they mean but use them anyway are;

shananigans
tom-foolery
malarky
tommy-rot
sky larking

and now hog-wash

got any others?


----------



## katieliz

trifexis, comfortis, et.al., always knew they were bad, never read details and details and details of just exactly how bad.

these vets are brainwashed by the drug manufacturers, exactly like (most of) the allopathic doctors i spent my career working with. it's disgraceful.


----------



## x11

katieliz said:


> trifexis, comfortis, et.al., always knew they were bad, never read details and details and details of just exactly how bad.
> 
> these vets are brainwashed by the drug manufacturers, exactly like (most of) the allopathic doctors i spent my career working with. it's disgraceful.


 
please don't click on my vacc rant just posted.


----------



## katieliz

@x11...what? i'm not understanding your above post, "please don't click on my vacc rant just posted", that was directed at me.


----------



## x11

i just created a rant thread on some of the issues you raised in the previous post, nothing aimed at you, just yr post was at the same time of rant. 

anyhoo back to solving the OP's agression problem.


----------



## GatorBytes

x11 said:


> i really like springing "old world" words on people in heated debates and am trying to get a collection, i have a lot of what i think are irish descent words, the conversations always take a pause which cracks me up, some words/phrases i got and not even sure what they mean but use them anyway are;
> 
> shananigans
> tom-foolery
> malarky
> tommy-rot
> sky larking
> 
> and now hog-wash
> 
> got any others?


Sorry OP to go off topic...
x11, I was busy all day and took a brief moment (approx. 730ish) to reply to the OP's vets defence of the trifexis re: hogwash comment...anywho, I haven't even skimmed the forum since 10 this morn....I had to feed and walk my dog and came back tonight to you laughing at the word...

well, long story even longer - Courty used in another thread I just came across for the first time - hogwash IS the word of the day LOL

Sorry Courtney wasn't poaching from you...it just flew off the top of my head when I hear these rediculous statements from vets - It was a fave term from my mother growing up...swear I never read it prior on the other thread (forget which one)

x11 - as for more irishisms - "Fisticuffs" is one of my faves (fist fight)


----------



## x11

ah yes fisticuffs, how could i not have that on my list - keep em comin ya lil scalli-wags?? 

talking obut hog-wash i remember why the word resonanted - i watched this as a kid;

Captain Pugwash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

apologies OP


----------



## BMWHillbilly

Seig said:


> .... and when I correct him *he looks right through me*. He acts like I am not even there.....


This is what sticks out in my head. I'm no expert by any means but with the "blank stare" he is giving you seems very inducive to a medical issue, possibly seizure related. At any rate, I'm hoping for the best for you and your pup!


----------



## RubyTuesday

> This is what sticks out in my head. I'm no expert by any means but with the "blank stare" he is giving you seems very inducive to a medical issue, possibly seizure related. At any rate, I'm hoping for the best for you and your pup!


That resonated with me as well. A blank, 'out of it' stare is often indicative of a seizure disorder but this might just be the dog cooly ignoring a subordinate. Frankly, I'm not really clear where this dog's behavior originates from, & tbh I'm not certain the OP does either. I'm very glad they're seeking help from a behaviouralist. These issues won't be successfully resolved unless they're thoroughly understood.

Absolutely agree with the advice to keep human faces removed from this dog's face. A damaging bite can occur literally in the blink of an eye. In those situations everyone usually loses, especially the dog. Quiite apart from the babying aspects (which are also troubling) it's flatout dangerous with this dog at this time. He might never be a dog you can safely go nose to nose with.


----------



## GSDElsa

I haven't read through every post, but I guess I'm a little bit surprised that people are totally shocked this started to develop. Not that there couldn't be a legitimate medial reason for this, but if he's been a basketcase since a puppy about guarding the door and the car to the point the son's friends avoid the dog like the plauge, this kind of indicates things probably have been slowly buildling up, but the OP just hasn't noticed. Combo of maturity and possibly the fence jumping triggered it.

I do admit the behavior sounds pretty bizarre--going back and forth between nice and rotten, but it does sound like he's predisposed to being a ltitle off. So it's toally possible the early-life behavior is tied to what he's going through now, it's just manifesting in a new way. But I just wanted to say the above comment in reference to people being skeptical that something within the household/something someone did to the dog triggered it.

However, the travel thing is interesting. One of our labs growing up would start a fight with our other dog anytime there was luggage out. He was normally the sweetest dog, but for some reason someone in the family leaving stressd him out so he'd act in a rather bizarre manner. Later in life, he developed some very severe seizures.


----------



## 4loveofadog

how is seig doing? how did he do with the behaviorist? did he behave himself? does behaviorist have any ideas of what's wrong with him or how to treat him? does seig have any allergies or compulsive disorders? i understand your wife wanting to kiss and love seig, she is just trying to get him to be the dog that she loved. but, right now, better not to cause another problem, you never know when he can turn into nasty dog. there has to be a reason the what he is doing, and i hope the behaviorist can get to the cause. God Bless you, your family and Seig. good luck.


----------



## LoveEcho

Yeah, I missed the hints that the dog has been "off" for what sounds like quite some time... good catch, Muskeg. The randomness of the behavior and the "blank stare" still stands out the most, but perhaps it's a mixture of both... screws loose neurologically, combined with a lack of training, maturity, etc. I'm very curious what the behaviorist's evaluation was. 

As a side note, for the love of God, tell your wife to keep her face away from him. *facepalm*


----------



## selzer

I did notice that the OP had barking at strangers, etc. But it seemed that the aggressiveness to familiy members was out of the blue. And, let's picture GSDs. There are a TON of young GSDs out there that bark at strangers or strange dogs, it's called reactive, and sometimes dogs grow out of it, and sometimes it gets worse. 

What is strange is that it is normally a fear-response, fear of the unknown. A family member is known. And even a reactive dog will not show aggression to a family member, even if that family member is doing something strange or different. If the family member yells at or even strikes the dog, the dog will cower, the dog will shut down. The dog is so very unlikely to act aggressively to a family member that I discounted the reports of reactivity. 

Now, there is a possibility that the dog is reactive because the dog is afraid for its life and has no trust in its owners to protect it, which could be lack of training, socialization, leadership. And I suppose the wrong dog might also be very dominant, so dominant that it tries to make lesser family members lower pack members? But I can't buy that. In my experience a strong willed dog, or hard dog, or very dominant dog, is usually not fear-reactive. 

To totally discount the reactive episodes is wrong because it could be an indication that there is something going on. It seems to be so common in shepherds that it would not spark people to find a physical reason. But think of a brain tumor. A tumor starts out small and then starts to grow. It might make sense that there would be some symptoms in some situations and not in others, and then as things get worse as the tumor grows more, the situations come closer to home and more frequent. 

But, because of how common the reactivity is, I really don't hold that theory either. 

In my opinion, the dog is reactive. And reactive dogs generally lack the hard, strong nerves, strong willed stuff, so the going after family members just seems that much more reason to look at something other than the Cesar dominance pack leader stuff as going on.


----------



## harmony

I agree , a dog can show what they learned or did not at this age. And that would be like opening a book of worms for some people. I would ask someone (OP) if they know what age dogs mature? Sounds like a young one that needs to learn. You could have a whole can of worms there, sick or not. All the best to you...


----------



## Liesje

I'm glad they are seeking help. I don't think I can comment based on this thread. There are details I would like to know before I said what I think. It could be a lot of different reasons but the signals I personally would be looking for have not been discussed. It could be a health issue, could be a behavioral issue that is now escalating, could just be too much dog. For example when I see a dog "blank stare" while the owner is trying to train or correct my first thought is not a brain tumor but that the dog is just in avoidance. He doesn't understand the correction or what is being asked. I've seen this many times and never was it a case of seizure or brain malfunction, just a breakdown in communication.


----------



## Msmaria

I really wished the OP would have came back to update. I hope things turned out out good. This is a scary story.


----------



## GatorBytes

DR. Jean Dodds site - the go to about thyroid (and vaccines)

Thyroid-Articles

*"..Our ongoing study now includes over 1500 cases of dogs presented to veterinary clinics for aberrant behavior. ... Results showed a significant relationship between thyroid dysfunction and seizure disorder, and thyroid dysfunction and dog-to-human aggression. Collectively, these findings confirm the importance of including a complete thyroid antibody profile as part of the laboratory and clinical work up of any behavioral case."*


----------



## wolfy dog

Msmaria said:


> I really wished the OP would have came back to update. I hope things turned out out good. This is a scary story.


Yes, it is annoying when we all pitch in to help and then it gets quiet. So SEIG, feedback is appreciated since we all will learn from it.


----------



## Sunflowers

Liesje said:


> F or example when I see a dog "blank stare" while the owner is trying to train or correct my first thought is not a brain tumor but that the dog is just in avoidance. He doesn't understand the correction or what is being asked. I've seen this many times and never was it a case of seizure or brain malfunction, just a breakdown in communication.


I agree with this, because I've seen it in my own dog. Hans does this when he tries to blow me off.


----------



## LoveEcho

Sunflowers said:


> I agree with this, because I've seen it in my own dog. Hans does this when he tries to blow me off.


I've seen it too (Echo's really good at it, hah). There's a different kind of stare though... it's really hard to describe it unless you've seen it. We had a dog at the kennel with rage syndrome... the look he got right before/during an episode went so far beyond "the lights are on but nobody's home." Once it passed, the dog would look seriously confused and act skittish. It was pretty chilling.


----------



## Sunflowers

LoveEcho said:


> I've seen it too (Echo's really good at it, hah). There's a different kind of stare though... We had a dog at the kennel with rage syndrome... the look he got right before/during an episode went so far beyond "the lights are on but nobody's home." Once it passed, the dog would look seriously confused and act skittish. It was pretty chilling.




I am imagining a cold, fixed, wolflike stare. Scary as heck.

Yeah, the stare I'm talking about is the "I don't hear youuuuu!" look.


----------



## Seig

Sorry we have been away and not given a followup in some time. We have been looking at buying a new home and have spent every waking moment of the past five days with our realator. I am typing this in the dark as the wife sleeps so please forgive the typos.

I would not do well proofing my post and are sure to send the discussion in a direction not wanted so I will keep it brief. 

At no time have we thought we were not part of the problem leading to our dog's behavior. We get that this animal is not a typical dog and that WE need to get up to speed with what he needs from us to be a happy well adjusted dogbbb.

Seig went to the behaviorist and it was educational for us all. Without getting into all the details of the three hour session this early in the morning I can tell you that we have made significag=nt progress in the few short days folloing the appointment. 

All of us are in modification mode. While the change most immediately impacted the dog, we have completely revamped how we are doing EVERYTHING and it has shown immediate benefits. The basic theme is he is agressive towards Mom because she is the Alpha he does not respect. He is agressive towards the Son because he is the playmate that he is allowed to dominate. His behavior has gotten to this point; because we have failed to provide him an outlet and direction for his intincts. There is much more to this and my beautiful wife would better explain all of it but this is where we are starting.

Puppy Boot Camp has begun. Seig actually has done quite well. While he has shown some reluctance, he has accepted the changes in his world. 

For starters;
He is confined to an area in our home where he has no interaction if he is not being fed, watered, played with, walked, run, in training or is not directly being interacted with in some way. He is there because he needs a break. He is too young or imature to be tasked with guard duty.

Seig does not get in the vehicle unless he is in a carrrier. He is fed twice a day for 15 minutes. The first two days he went without as he didn't wish to eat on a clock. He now anxiously awaits feeding time. He gets no praise or affection without working for it. He is commanded to sit before anything happens in his life. There is much more. I cannot type well in daylight on my best day.

Mother has received NONE of what we were seeing before. I appreciate it has only been a few dyas. We are not thinking he has been cured. We are just thankful there have been signs that this is correctable if we do right by him. the Son; whom I will refer to brother from this point forward... Brother is a different story. He is an 18 year old boy who has school, his friends and a job. Any parent will understand what this means. In a different forum this could be it's own thread. The dynamic for this problem is much different. He is seen as equal to the dog and will require building a dominant role over time. While Sam loves his puppy, he does not have the time we would like him to to help make this a better situation overnight. This does not mean we will not work om it, just that it will take more time. We are removing the animal from this situation until we can make the progress needed to allow safe, unsupervised contact with the two. 

I cannot say enough about the information we received from all of you here at the forum. Some comments could have been done without but we appreciate everyone and everything. When things slow down with the house search I am sure Mom will swing by and update you all better than I. Thank you again.


----------



## Karo4410

I am very happy to hear your update today! Good luck with Seig and house hunting! 

Keep us posted.


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## FlyAway

Thank you for the update. It sounds like money well spent. Good job!


----------



## RubyTuesday

Thanks so much for the update. It sounds as though it's a behavioral/training issue & not a medical problem. It also sounds as though he's not mentally unsound which is GREAT news. That can be verrrry tough to resolve satisfactorily.

Things seem to be going well which is terrific news. Sound, stable GSDs are ordinarily very amenable to training which can make this kind of rehabilitation relatively easy. I hope everything continues to go well. Please keep us updated.


----------



## Msmaria

Thanks for the update Im so glad that things are turning around for the better. This situation could happen to many of us here on the site that have young dogs. It is something to learn from and I am glad that you took the time to post, ask the question and update us.


----------



## KatieNeptune

Thank you for sharing your story. Good luck to you and your family.


----------



## carmspack

have only read to end of page 3 --- neutering does not change aggression -- there are actually many studies which indicate that aggression may become increased . Please read article written by Christine Zink http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

dog is a little like the child "rock star" surrounded by yes-men , catered to , indulged , sheltered . 

something is not normal in the brain . Where do you run hot and cold , one moment soliciting connection (wife and dog being in friend mode (although licky lick could be a sign of being uncomfortable feeling pressure) and then the next moment growling , then back , back and forth.

I'll keep reading through the whole thread .


----------



## Seig

Hi all...Seig's mom here.

Thank you to everyone who posted and read and posted and read...in this situation we truly were worried we'd lose our friend and protector.

Couple of things. Out of the family, I was the number ONE person not wanting to neuter Seig. I'm not a fan. For canines or humans. Just not a fan. It took something of this degree and nature to get me to that point. It took the possibility of putting my dog down and so neutering was an easy choice at that point. The reason I am stressing this is I am, cautiously, convinced that to some degree this helped in Seig's "situation." It was almost (I say almost because of the drugs afterwards) instant that he was back to his normal self with me. In a nutshell and so as to not bring on comments which have no merit, Seig was neutered and has not since snarled nor growled at me. And in totality, since the first time he did with my son, he'd only done it maybe 5-6 times with me. But when he did, it was terrifying and it broke my heart.  He had also "stalked" me once in the home...that was the worst feeling. So, after the neuter, he is 100% himself with me. I write all of this because there will be again, someone like us who will experience this. This first thing you feel (or we did at least) is heartbreak..."wtf??? this is our puppy!!!" second is confusion...again, "wtf...this is OUR puppy!!!" and lastly, fear. So, perhaps there is some truth to the neutering/aggression. Seig was exactly 19 months old when it FIRST and EVER began (again...don't want to bring on comments that we just didn't notice it or the son must have done something...no need to lie, embellish, etc...the facts are what they are). So those of you who read this later because you have this same exact issue, he was 19 months exactly and intact. For those of you who like me, are/were against neutering, and like me are/were facing putting him down (because I wouldn't risk that with another family...too dangerous) I, at this point, would support neutering when you absolutely can find no answer ALONG with the situation being a COMPLETE 180 in knowing your dog well...having raised him from 10 weeks old.

Now, the behaviorist. He is great. Highly recommend him. Dr. Pachel. My husband touched on it but it's like this; he doesn't growl at or worse with dad as dad is the alpha he respects. Now because of dad's job, he is home only 1/3 the time. I raised Seig (and yes, I screwed up in spoiling him/boundaries). It was me and Seig 24/7 as I do not work. Field 2ce/day, park 2ce/day and a few walks. Every day. But Seig views me as the alpha he doesn't respect due to my not having clear boundaries and allowing Seig to be on guard 24/7. Seig literally was on guard staring at the door 24/7. My son was a "playmate" in Seig's eyes as my husband touched on, according to the doctor. He was an equal and therefore, zero respect. So, that in a very small nutshell is how Seig views us all and why/how things got to where they did with his getting older..reaching sexual maturity...and being on guard constantly. There's much more, the doctor was extremely thorough and it was a 3 hour appointment so please no comments on this isn't the only thing...we know.

My husband touched on it but...if Seig is not playing, eating, doing the duty, training or in transit, he is in his "room." That amounts to about 16 hours a day. It's a HUGE transition as Seig and I always hung out...all day...right by my side or under my foot, laundry, dishes, cooking, watching news...you name it, always by my side. So it's a huge change but he is doing okay with it. It's harder on me but it's good in that I can move without him under my heels! :laugh: At play, he must sit before every single stick is thrown and before every single ball is "chuck it'd" it's very, very different play but I see how it works for him. He sit's before every single reward/walk/treat/praise. It is completely different and it is absolutely working.

As for my son, I would say Seig is 100% back to normal but I can't as I don't want to and never would, "test" that with Seig. They play now (before for those couple of weeks, Sam couldn't get near him), Sam feeds him again, Seig wakes Sam up again, it's as normal as it was without testing it to find out. As for no "face kissing" or to the one who couldn't believe we were "face kissing" well....we are ALL face kissing and LOVING it again. Seig is probably the one loving it most. (You'll see that in the pics we posted). We all get kisses from him again and it is consistent and just like it was. Again, I am a little tentative with brother but we can leave them alone again, they go on walks again, and Sam understands it's critical for him to be an alpha and stepping in as a resource provider, etc.

Seig is his old self with a little caution on our part but for certain he is 100% with me. The neutering helped and the behaviorist definitely helped. I learned a ton and I will be in constant learning/training mode to ensure this sticks.

Lastly, I know I spoiled and babied my dog. I am now undoing that. The thought of putting him down was awful, heart breaking. I was unaware that you could not have a GSD the same as you would have a Golden Retriever (the dogs I've always had). My learning this, being told by a doctor, has made a huge difference in how I treat Seig. I needed to be told that and never was. He can no longer be my cuddle buddy who gets every little thing he wants playing kissy face with mom. It worked however, until he hit "that" point (19 mos? sexual maturity? nonstop guarding? who knows.) but things have changed. We can still play kissy face, it's just on my terms and it's got to be earned. 

Seig is a 90# killing machine and I need to respect that this is his first priority. Not being my sweet little puppy.

Thank you again to everyone...it was a very scary and sad moment for us all. We truly appreciate the help!

Seig's Family


----------



## carmspack

got to page 6 -- to this " This is not a forum for challenging an accusation such as I will most likely find out my son did something to set the dog off. "

so what , and why would you blame your son . This dog (so far) just does not sound stable nor normal. If your son accidently tripped over the dog during some night time trip down the hallway to use the bathroom would you expect your son to be mauled. The dog has to have some tolerance and some recovery . Your wife wasn't doing anything to provoke the dog . Inappropriate aggressive behaviour leaking out .

back to reading


----------



## Seig

*carmspack*

Again...not here to engage in challenging posts.

Reread the earlier posts and in full. We did not accuse our son. An accusation was made by a poster ("we will find out eventually that our son did something...." We wrote simply that we would not engage in defending what we write to be true ("our son did nothing..."as we are more interested in helping our dog.

I appreciate your insight but do not agree. 

To all others, please continue the posts.


----------



## FlyAway

I'm so happy this worked out for you! I can understand neutering can have an effect. I neutered a male once (medical issues), and he really did turn into a different dog. Nobody but myself would have noticed because it was so subtle and he was a good boy to start with. I noticed. 

I hope this thread sticks around for others who are having problems. 

Again, I am SO Happy for you!


----------



## carmspack

okay , sorry for any wrongful interpretations. So on page 12 I am having difficulty because the gender of the writer has changed. On page one it was "the" son and "the" wife and here it seems it's "mama" who the behaviourist deems "alpha" and who likes face kissing so the dog is normal . Was the dog normal to begin with ? I am looking more to muskegs good post on reasons for this behaviour.

this "But for my wife to have this aggressive barking fiercely at the docs cower behind mama sure made my wife feel "normal" again" (see how the writer is a different gender) -- but never mind --- this snippet indicates that there is some pride , maybe reward , for the dog aggressively barking at people, whether the docs or son's friends , and that the dog is fear aggressive and rewarded for hiding , avoiding , behind mamma.

who is this dr Pachel because I think , if you are reporting advice correctly, the advice is weird. Dogs are not people , babies . People are not their moms and dads and brothers or sisters. Do behaviourists still use "alpha"?


----------



## Seig

*Thanks Fly Away*

only we know our dogs best. I was so completely against the neutering as I mentioned but even if it is not what helped/changed his sudden aggression (I believe it def did) it certainly saved his life and us our family pet/protector.

Thanks!


----------



## Sunflowers

He is not your "family protector."

It is up to you to protect your dog, not the other way around, especially a dog like Seig.

Glad things are better. And, yes, GSDs don't do well if they are babied.


----------



## Seig

*carmspack*

Carmspack,

The purpose for the post was to seek help from those that possibly have lived the same situation we had been with our dog. It truly is tragic. If you take the time to read the thread in its entirety we are not alone. There is sure to be a lesson for many in this.

To explain the gender concerns you have; I (Dad) started the post because we had come to this site before for information regarding training and what not. It seemed that there were knowledgeable and willing people here. I was not wrong.

The thread was continued by my wife and then again much later by myself. The only reason I mention this is you seem to be perplexed as you mention it several times. 

While I appreciate your input I do not welcome the accusatory and condemning manner in which you go about it (us, son, doctor...). While we had one negative comment, I believe it were ignorant but made with good intentions. Your comments are not. 

Please stop trying to dissect our problem and point out inconsistencies and question what is working. I am not sure what your qualifications are but I would bet almost anything that you are not qualified to question our behaviorist or his advice. 

Another reason I recommend you read the thread in its entirety is there are many smart people whom have read and commented. For you to take this approach just isn’t a smart move. 

Again, the entire reason for our posting past getting help for our own situation is to help OTHERS as there most certainly will be/are others going through this.

For anyone who IS going through this, there IS hope and we hope you get something from our experience.

We are happy to answer any questions and share our behaviorists thoughts short of breeching any confidentiality....that is why he charges what he does :laugh:


----------



## Jax08

Carmspack is a respected breeder with decades of experience and knowledge working with this breed. She may be blunt but she does have the knowledge to back her questions and response. You may want to read her take on the behavior and think on it a bit.


----------



## Sunflowers

Seig said:


> While I appreciate your input I do not welcome the accusatory and condemning manner in which you go about it (us, son, doctor...). While we had one negative comment, I believe it were ignorant but made with good intentions. Your comments are not.
> 
> Please stop trying to dissect our problem and point out inconsistencies and question what is working. I am not sure what your qualifications are but I would bet almost anything that you are not qualified to question our behaviorist or his advice.
> 
> :


And you would lose that bet.
ABOUT | CARMSPACK.com
When you post on a public forum, you open yourself up to comments that you are not going to like. It is futile to attempt to control the replies you get. Just take what you want and ignore the rest. 

People reply because they are trying to help. It's not OK to slam them for doing so, because you are defensive about what they have to say.


----------



## carmspack

well , before replying back here I did go back and re-read all the "Seig" posts to make find out who was the author. 
"To explain the gender concerns you have; I (Dad) started the post ............(then) The thread was continued by my wife and then again much later by myself. The only reason I mention this is you seem to be perplexed as you mention it several times. "

This is not normal for this forum.

Usually one per thread writer otherwise it does get confusing because it is not the same voice, same concerns, or even same thoughts/beliefs. If both want to contribute then sign up as two individuals --- I guess with two different names / avatars.

The behaviourist seems to be very very expensive (eyebrows still up and mouth still open !) 


*OUR FEES*

Diagnostic (new patients) Behavioral Consultations: $260/hour
Follow Up Consultations (current patients): $220/hour
Travel Fee: $65 (home visits in Oregon within a 15-20 mile radius of our office in SE Portland)
Additional fees will apply for any diagnostic testing, medications or products"
so where do you go from there? did they recommend a good trainer because I believe at the core the dog does need training


----------



## GSDElsa

Just a comment regarding the neutering. Don't delude yourself into thinking it's made a difference. You took the dog to the behaviorist the same day the dog got neutered. Thats likely the change you are seeing. It's not quite as straightforward as "the hormones magically leave the body the second the dog is neutered." The did is responding to the sudden changes, not getting neutered. Just be aware of that. People swear it can make a difference. I don't have enough experience with neutering dogs to comment on that. But it's not magic.


----------



## Sunflowers

GSDElsa said:


> Just a comment regarding the neutering. Don't delude yourself into thinking it's made a difference. You took the dog to the behaviorist the same day the dog got neutered. Thats likely the change you are seeing. It's not quite as straightforward as "the hormones magically leave the body the second the dog is neutered." The did is responding to the sudden changes, not getting neutered. Just be aware of that. People swear it can make a difference. I don't have enough experience with neutering dogs to comment on that. But it's not magic.


No one will ever know, now, what made the difference. 
There was a rush to everything. 
Oh, well.


----------



## RebelGSD

I reread my comments and it seems that I was right. I am delighted to hear that you are working with your dog.
I have seen dogs like this in rescue, somewhat iffy nerves and too much responsibility, and behaviors like this can surface. I have also seen in several cases that neutering can make a huge difference. Some owners described it as a different dog after the neuter. Enrolling him into a series of group obedience classes would be very useful and less costly than a behaviorist.

After the situation stabilizes and the dog understands and accepts the pack roles, you should be able to cuddle and play with him again. it may take a while as he has to relearn many things.


----------



## carmspack

neutering will not bring a dog from "/were facing putting him down (because I wouldn't risk that with another family...too dangerous) " and after neutering and 3 hours in behavioral consultation "Seig is a 90# killing machine and I need to respect that this is his first priority"

and yet in your same post page 12 you get "As for no "face kissing" or to the one who couldn't believe we were "face kissing" well....we are ALL face kissing and LOVING it again. Seig is probably the one loving it most. (You'll see that in the pics we posted). We all get kisses from him again and it is consistent and just like it was. "

still I can't help but get an image of Kipling's Jungle Book , the Disney version, with all the mom and dad and brother.
Dog can't deal with our complicated family dynamics .

the interpretation of the dogs action are confusing (to me)
"he doesn't growl at or worse with dad as dad is the alpha he respects." but " But Seig views me as the alpha he doesn't respect " and son is a playmate or brother.

How are you going to be a fair and firm leader for the dog when you have conflict (statement "As for my son, I would say Seig is 100% back to normal but I can't as I don't want to and never would, "test" that with Seig") and residual fear and mistrust . Is the reality that you expect some inappropriate surprise action from the dog? 

"Since he was old enough to bark he would defend the vehicle and the door very aggressively. We have had a difficult time having friends of our son stop by for this reason. He is very intimidating and very loud. Although to this point it was all more bark than bite, he is avoided by all but one or two of our son’s friends."

What suggestions did the behaviorist offer for this ? How are you going to correct the dog .


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'm very glad things seem to be working out

I do agree with GSDElsa (Justine) tho, you started with a behaviorist and enforcing more boundaries at the same time he was neutered, so it may be more the training vs the actual neutering. 

Again, I'm glad things are working out, I would keep up with the training/boundaries as well.


----------



## Jax08

Am I wrong in thinking it takes roughly 30 days for the hormones to leave their body after neutering? That is what I was told before. If that is true, then it is mostly likely not the neuter that is causing the change in him. It's probably the new structure.


----------



## GSDElsa

Jax08 said:


> Am I wrong in thinking it takes roughly 30 days for the hormones to leave their body after neutering? That is what I was told before. If that is true, then it is mostly likely not the neuter that is causing the change in him. It's probably the new structure.


Yes, I believe so. That was my point is thar the neutering hours after surgery would have done nothing. And just days later still not a lot.


----------



## selzer

I applaud the OP's commitment to help their pup. 

I think that with as much invested in the behaviorist and the neuter, the wanting this to work out as much if not more than the monetary investment, it will be difficult to accept anything that counters anything they say or do. 

I hope that as the hormones even out within the coming month, and you all continue to work with the dog, things will continue to improve. 

Neutering is not magic, if you did just the neuter, then the dog would come back to himself after the meds wore off, and eventually would fall into his bad habits again. Neutering keeps the dog from reproducing. Neutering and changing your approach with the dog to one that seems to be giving you positive results, will make a difference. Perhaps just changing the approach would have made the difference you were looking for, but what is the point with that question now? You really cannot put his nads back and test the theory.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Jax I also believe that is so. Quik example, a friend had neutered her male cat, he was immediately allowed in with her unspayed females, (all in house cats),,whoops, she had a litter of one ,,he wasn't shooting blanks right after neutering apparently


----------



## GSDElsa

Right--can't put the nads back. But my comment in regards to them stating the neutering worked a bit of magic is to not somehow convince themselves that because of the surgery he will be somehow different and to let their family "rehab" down.


----------



## RebelGSD

I saw dramatic improvements in dogs who were marking obsessively during the first week after neuter. It may take a moth for hormone levels to fully stabilize, but the largest changes are immediately after neuter when the hormone production goes from max to zero.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Rebel, it was probably to painful for them to lift their leg :happyboogie:


----------



## selzer

JakodaCD OA said:


> Rebel, it was probably to painful for them to lift their leg :happyboogie:


:spittingcoffee:


----------



## RebelGSD

JakodaCD OA said:


> Rebel, it was probably to painful for them to lift their leg :happyboogie:


You are welcome to mock me, but at least I have seen plenty of dogs go from unneutered to neutered unlike many other who have strong opinions without much personal experience.


----------



## RebelGSD

selzer said:


> :spittingcoffee:


You are welcome to mock me, but at least I have seen plenty of dogs go from unneutered to neutered unlike many other who have strong opinions without much personal experience.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

dont' get your knickers in a twist, it was a JOKE!


----------



## RebelGSD

JakodaCD OA said:


> dont' get your knickers in a twist, it was a JOKE!


You are free to continue to mock me, I could not care less, after you guys ran down these people who are doing good by their dog. Maybe others could untwist the knickers and be a little supportive as opposed to "dissective". Love when the knicker girls who do not neuter know everything best about the effects.


----------



## GSDElsa

No one is "running them down." I can't speak for others, but I just don't want them to get "false hope" that neutering did some kind of magic on the dog's behavior when that likely isn't the cause.

IMO few people have enough experience with charting neutering patterns to really comment on how much change it can have in a 24 hour period on a dogs behavior. But maybe that's the scientist in me a bit too much.

I think it's great what they are doing. Great that they are seeing improvement. But just don't think that anyone should be thinking that neutering play one little bit in it because waaaaaay too many variables changed in a 24 hour period of the dog's life to make that kind of assumption. I just think that it's asking for trouble to think that neutering had that kind of effect on the dog's personality. It's not some kind of statement as to if neutering is good or bad--not knocking them for doing it. 

And you do need to loosen up Rebel! Geez, wound up quite a bit.


----------



## selzer

They need to follow through. If neuter is a magic pill that turns bad doggies into good doggies, they could fire the behaviorist and dump the classes. I think all of us are suggesting they not take that chance.


----------



## bunchoberrys

RebelGSD said:


> You are free to continue to mock me, I could not care less, after you guys ran down these people who are doing good by their dog. Maybe others could untwist the knickers and be a little supportive as opposed to "dissective". Love when the knicker girls who do not neuter know everything best about the effects.


 
:thumbup: Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Zookeep

I hate to say it, but this family is setting itself up for another bite. It is not possible that the dog is cured within a few days. Even if neutering decreases aggression, it can't happen within a few days. Nor can a few days of training fix the problem. 

OP - for the sake of your family's safety, please treat this dog with caution and stop kissing its face. Human aggression issues take months of hard work to resolve. This dog is still dangerous.


----------



## carmspack

pretty much what I said , and agree with , zookeep.


----------



## sparra

JakodaCD OA said:


> Rebel, it was probably to painful for them to lift their leg :happyboogie:


This is not as silly as it sounds...



RebelGSD said:


> You are free to continue to mock me, I could not care less, after you guys ran down these people who are doing good by their dog. Maybe others could untwist the knickers and be a little supportive as opposed to "dissective". Love when the knicker girls who do not neuter know everything best about the effects.


You can't really be serious in suggesting that a dog who has had fear issues for a VERY long time and has been exhibiting unstable behaviour since a young age is going to be cured ONLY DAYS after a castration??
That is just dangerous advice if you are.




Zookeep said:


> I hate to say it, but this family is setting itself up for another bite. It is not possible that the dog is cured within a few days. Even if neutering decreases aggression, it can't happen within a few days. Nor can a few days of training fix the problem.
> 
> OP - for the sake of your family's safety, please treat this dog with caution and stop kissing its face. Human aggression issues take months of hard work to resolve. This dog is still dangerous.


Agree.....this dog has issues far beyond just needing a neuter......To the OP.....look after your son!!!


----------



## sparra

Seig said:


> Since he was old enough to bark he would defend the vehicle and the door very aggressively. We have had a difficult time having friends of our son stop by for this reason. He is very intimidating and very loud. Although to this point it was all more bark than bite, he is avoided by all but one or two of our son’s friends.


....and a neuter is going to magically fix this....


----------



## RebelGSD

Nobody said the dog is magically cured. The family is working with an excellent (and expensive) behaviorist, they are practicing behavior modification, they changed their own interaction with the dog, they changed how they manage the dog, they neutered him and they see improvement they are happy with. What else do you want from them? This will be just another poster chased away by the negativity. I wish other dog owners put this much effort into their pet.


----------



## RebelGSD

I surrender and admit that the doomsday knickers are right. Happy?


----------



## sparra

RebelGSD said:


> I surrender and admit that the doomsday knickers are right. Happy?


Well it will be doomsday if the dog attacks their son and scars him for life

No one is having a go at anybody.....some have simply pointed out and rightly so that a neuter is not going to have fixed this issue immediately.
Other people read these threads who may be in similar circumstances and it is misleading to imply that the neuter is a magic bullet for these kind of issues.

It never ceases to amaze me how blaz'e (sp) some can be about a dog threatening members of its own family......if I am to be called "doomsday Knickers"  what ever that means because I can see a real threat and the possibility of something tragic happening then.....so be it....


----------



## Zookeep

RebelGSD said:


> Nobody said the dog is magically cured. The family is working with an excellent (and expensive) behaviorist, they are practicing behavior modification, they changed their own interaction with the dog, they changed how they manage the dog, they neutered him and they see improvement they are happy with. What else do you want from them? This will be just another poster chased away by the negativity. I wish other dog owners put this much effort into their pet.


No one is saying they are not trying. They have a behaviorist with great credentials and are, for the most part, doing the right things. I was reacting mostly to this:



> As for no "face kissing" or to the one who couldn't believe we were "face kissing" well....we are ALL face kissing and LOVING it again. Seig is probably the one loving it most. (You'll see that in the pics we posted). We all get kisses from him again and it is consistent and just like it was.


Kissing the face of a human aggressive dog which bit a family member a few days ago is not a safe thing to do at this time.


----------



## RebelGSD

What is happening is that ten people are dissecting every word the person says to prove them wrong. When they wrote the post, they probably did not think of weighing every word because they did not expect to be subjected to this kind of cross examination and they don't seem to be familiar with the techical jargon. 

They sound well aware that their dog can bite, which is why they are taking the measures theyvare taking. The way they are treated will just harass them away.


----------



## Courtney

I will say this dog scares me...very unsettling.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I don't see anyone mocking, or putting down these people for wanting to rehab their dog. I was NOT mocking you , it was a freaking joke to lighten the mood. 

I just don't want to see them fall into a false sense of security thinking that neutering a dog will change behavior dramatically within a day. It pays to be cautious. 

I'm glad they have a trainer and are working on the issue and hopefully it can be resolved.


----------



## RebelGSD

Usually people who mock and make fun of others consider it funny. You and others pulled the neuter issue out of context, ganged up on the OP to prove that the dog could not have improved. Then you ganged up on me and mocked me for daring to comment that it is possible that neuter helps with behavioral issues pretty soon. It is not helpful or funny the way you treated the OP. Everybody conveniently "forgot" all the other measures the owners took to help themselves and their dog. 

I would be surprised if the OP comes back after the way he/she was treated. Whatever you people wanted to accomplish backfired because of the way to do it. It is sad that you are unable understand it.


----------



## Msmaria

To the OP Im so glad things have worked out for you. This has been a very informative thread. As having a young GSD myself and many others like me may come across something like this in the future. Im hoping not as I would hate to be stalked by my own dog. I feel for you.

This forum is a very good forum but sometimes its sad to see people who love animals so much, treat each other as humans so badly.. I hope the OP returns.


----------



## Sieg

*Thanks to all...a tiny update*

It's late...I believe in earlier posts we'd mentioned buying a home...moving. So, we've done that and are settled. In a real, true nutshell, Sieg is doing WONDERFULLY. He has not once been aggressive to mom (me) since the neutering. Everyone has a different experience and unlike others, I am NOT an expert but our EXPERIENCE was that Sieg was a 180 degree change IMMEDIATELY. I am NOT offering or suggesting that as a fix...I'm telling you what OUR experience was. Second, he has also not been aggressive to our son AT ALL since. He is completely different from that "different" boy we saw...in other words, back to himself. I gotta say...like it or not...we will FACE KISS OUR GS ALL DAY LONG. I do agree and understand after spending nearly $1000 for 3 hours of therapy that Sieg DID AND DOES expect me to be number one...protector, provider, boss, etc. otherwise as another poster mentioned, he is forced to do so and does not want that role. I get it. Thanks for everyone who listened without the bs comments. It's a learning curve for me and with dad gone at work 6 mos/yr...it's a tougher learning curve. We got it though and those who care will appreciate the update. Also...our new home is on 2+ acres in the country, just built Sieg a fence so life is grand!

Thanks again to all. OUR experience was the neutering DID help; the help WAS immediate; behaviourist is expensive but WAS THE ABSOLUTE difference in deciding to lose a beloved member of our family or getting to keep him; and face kissing is JUST FINE.

Take care all and thanks again for what was a very scary, sad time. Sieg is phenomenal and truly the most wonderful pup in the world!


----------



## Seig

*RebelGSD*

Just a thanks. And clearly you get we missed some things, we searched, we tried, we love our pup.....bottom line is it's too bad forums are for those seeking nothing more than to b*tch and belittle. A little help like yours was well appreciated. For the most part, the majority of posts were like minded and truth be told, we needed the help and so we thank all.


----------



## AshleyD

I wish this behaviorist could help me train my girlfriend as fast as your dog.

I hope all goes well and am glad things are going better, but please remain vigilant in protecting your family. This just put a lot of worry in my head about my dog even though he's never shown any of these signs. 

I could never accept an unprovoked attack from a pet and feel fully confident it won't happen again.


----------

