# Ethics of selling an AKC reg dog without papers



## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

I recently stumbled across an ad on Craiglist for a nice looking 2 year old GSD from top German lines being sold for $800. The catch is that she is being sold without papers, which are still with the original breeder and not the person selling the dog. I have done my research, I have seen her pedigree and spoken with the Breeder. She is from top German showlines and a pretty little thing. I have been sent her videos and she is clean both coming and going, nice reach in the rear but a little restricted in the front. She is a kennel dog, so not housebroken. 
I am originally from Canada and there a dog, like a car, can not be sold without its registration papers. I am wondering how so many breeders can get away with that? The dog is registered and the breeder said they can be purchased for a $1000. What is with that?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

um, no....Responsible breeders do not charge extra(that extreme) to have papers. they are in it for the breed soley, not the money of papers drive them to charge what they do.
. CL is not a place to buy a good GSD...better to do some homework and learn more about lines and breeders. Especially when it comes to the showlines that you are looking at.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> um, no....Responsible breeders do not charge extra(that extreme) to have papers. they are in it for the breed soley, not the money of papers drive them to charge what they do.
> . CL is not a place to buy a good GSD...better to do some homework and learn more about lines and breeders. Especially when it comes to the showlines that you are looking at.



Not to worry, I am not buying her. But as far as her bloodlines they are very good on both sides. Vegas, Pakros, Ober, just to name a few. Hips all clear for at least 4 generations. 


I am not going to say who the pup is yet as I am in the process of negotiating but I will say that he comes highly recommended by a very well respected breeder and judge.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So total $1800 for a WGSL with a good pedigree? That's super inexpensive for a WGSL. IF she's healthy and it's all on teh up and up.

So why was she sold with no papers to start? I guess I'd like to know the reasoning behind that before and answer on whether the breeder is responsible or not due to this particular situation

And why is the dog being sold on CL instead of going back to the breeder. Was there not a contract for first right of refusal?


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> So total $1800 for a WGSL with a good pedigree? That's super inexpensive for a WGSL. IF she's healthy and it's all on teh up and up.
> 
> So why was she sold with no papers to start? I guess I'd like to know the reasoning behind that before and answer on whether the breeder is responsible or not due to this particular situation
> 
> And why is the dog being sold on CL instead of going back to the breeder. Was there not a contract for first right of refusal?



It is totally on the up and up. It turns out that a friend of mine knows the seller quite well and says they are good people. The dog is a bit on the small side, but that is about it. The breeder had given her to the seller when she was a puppy and did not provide the papers.
I don't know why she isn't going back and possibly the reason she is being sold on Craigslist is because the seller doesn't know any better.


My friend who is the judge looked at her videos and said that she could loose a few lbs and she does not have much training, but otherwise she doesn't look to bad.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> um, no....Responsible breeders do not charge extra(that extreme) to have papers. they are in it for the breed soley, not the money of papers drive them to charge what they do.
> . CL is not a place to buy a good GSD...better to do some homework and learn more about lines and breeders. Especially when it comes to the showlines that you are looking at.



That should be rephrased as Craigslist is not a good place to sell a good GSD. There are some people who don't know any better and will post and sell good animals there. A few years ago I found a chinchilla that came from a breeder that I knew, I bought her, bred her and one of her daughters did very well in a chinchilla show. It is always a good idea to keep an eye on these classifieds to keep good quality animals from slipping through the cracks. The same goes for horse auctions, some expensive well bred horses have ended up there through no fault of their own. My friend bought a "Saddlebred" that had gone through the auction and when I saw a photo of the horse I immediately suggested that she have him dna tested because he looked far more like a lipizzan to me than a saddlebred. Two weeks later she called me and told me that not only was he a pure bred lipizzan but that I would know who he was. 
I know these lines, my mother has a great aunt of this female and she was one of the top GSD in utility in Canada a few years ago.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know that I'd be willing to believe the pedigree is really hers.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know that I'd be willing to believe the pedigree is really hers.


I have done my homework and have found no reason to believe that it isn't hers.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Microchip? DNA? Tatoo?


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know that I'd be willing to believe the pedigree is really hers.



Plus I showed her photos, videos and pedigree to a judge who is very familiar with many of the dogs in her pedigree. He watched the videos and not once did he question her quality. He said that she is a nice dog, great reach in the rear but a little restricted in the front. The thing is that he knew of a far better litter that will be available soon and he encouraged me to buy one from there.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Microchip? DNA? Tatoo?



Dna would be easy to do as the seller has the sire and the breeder still has the dam.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Good luck with the negotiations. I wouldn't put my trust in the people, but I'm pretty cynical.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Good luck with the negotiations. I wouldn't put my trust in the people, but I'm pretty cynical.


I'm not getting the dog, I was asking about the ethics of selling a dog without registration papers. The dog I am hoping to get was whelped in May and is only about 6 weeks old and out of an exceptional litter that was recommended to me by a well respected Judge.
As I said earlier, a good friend of mine who I trust knows the family very well and says they are good people.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

so I'm confused.... if not buying, what are you negotiating? are your plans to work, show, breed? (otherwise, I can care less about my pet dogs reach) and lastly..... what exactly is your question? sounds like you're in contact with any and everyone (seller, breeder, judge) that can provide the info you need.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Fodder said:


> so I'm confused.... if not buying, what are you negotiating? are your plans to work, show or breed? (otherwise, I can care less about my pet dogs reach) and lastly..... what exactly is your question?


Sorry, multitasking here. 
My question was if it is ethical to sell an AKC registered dog without registration papers.
The puppy that I am planning on negotiating to purchase was born end of May.
Plans are to work, show and breed. 
I bred, showed and did obedience when I was younger and am looking forward to getting back into it again.
I am including a photo of the sire of the pup.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

According to the AKC, if the dog is registered or eligible for registration, the papers are supposed to go with the dog.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

LeoRose said:


> According to the AKC, if the dog is registered or eligible for registration, the papers are supposed to go with the dog.


 That is what I thought, it is the same back home in Canada. So now if a person were to buy this dog, how would they go about getting the papers without having to pay an extra $1000 to the breeder to get them? The breeder had given the dog to the seller when she was a puppy. I know of someone who may be interested in purchasing her but not at $1800.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Caroline5 said:


> That is what I thought, it is the same back home in Canada. So now if a person were to buy this dog, how would they go about getting the papers without having to pay an extra $1000 to the breeder to get them? The breeder had given the dog to the seller when she was a puppy. I know of someone who may be interested in purchasing her but not at $1800.


If they want the actual registration papers, they'd have to talk to the breeder. Otherwise, if they want to compete in AKC companion/performance events, they can apply for a Purebred Alternative Listing, providing she has been altered.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

LeoRose said:


> If they want the actual registration papers, they'd have to talk to the breeder. Otherwise, if they want to compete in AKC companion/performance events, they can apply for a Purebred Alternative Listing, providing she has been altered.



That I know. The question was if it is ethical to sell an AKC registered dog without the papers at a lower price?
Back home the registration papers belong with the dog and can not be sold separately, just like the title belongs with a car and the car can not be sold without a title at a lower cost.
Since this is the case, I am curious as to what a buyer could do in order to get the papers without having to pay extra since they should have transferred ownership with the dog at the time of purchase.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

No it is not ethical - whoever has the papers owns the dog....they may have placed her as a puppy without papers so that the dog is not randomly bred - but did not SELL her without papers....often a pup is placed in a home at no cost, with the breeder holding the papers.....

The breeder sees a way to recoup some of the lost income from the litter.....if everyone is telling truth, and your friend wants the dog - I don't see anything wrong with the breeder charging for the dog's papers - in fact, the people who have her should return her to the breeder and let the breeder decide where she goes...

Lee


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> No it is not ethical - whoever has the papers owns the dog....they may have placed her as a puppy without papers so that the dog is not randomly bred - but did not SELL her without papers....often a pup is placed in a home at no cost, with the breeder holding the papers.....
> 
> The breeder sees a way to recoup some of the lost income from the litter.....if everyone is telling truth, and your friend wants the dog - I don't see anything wrong with the breeder charging for the dog's papers - in fact, the people who have her should return her to the breeder and let the breeder decide where she goes...
> 
> Lee



Ah, but time and again I have seen ads for people selling pups with papers for one price and without papers for a lower price.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I think it's shady on both sides. These people were given a puppy and now are trying to make a buck, and the breeder is trying to make a buck now too. It's not on the up and up. Sorry. The breeder, if worth anything would have the dog back. I think they are both unethical. 

As for charging more for papers or not, I also find that unethical and would never buy a dog from a breeder that had this practice.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Here is the thing. Up in Canada a breeder can be fined up to $50,000 for not providing ckc papers when selling a pup or for charging extra for papers. I was therefore surprised when I moved down here and kept seeing ads for breeders charging extra for akc registration papers. I thought it very odd, but figured differentcountry, different laws, but it bugged me to no end. 
I just found the exact information I am looking for.
Breeder wants more money for AKC papers?
She said if I am not using for breeding or showing I can get the puppy for a little less if I am using her for a family dog. Does this sound right? She has... show more
10 answers · Dogs 

Best Answer
In Canada it is ILLEGAL to charge more for AKC papers. 
And I am unsure, but I believe it is against the breeder code of ethics of the AKC to charge more for papers as well. 

I would tell the breeder to forget it and go find a reputable one. 

Add: 
I too am unsure of the USA laws, however in Canada it is outlined as illegal in the "Animal Pedigree Act" 
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/A-11.... 

And the AKC states: 
"Be wary of a breeder who refuses/hesitates to give you papers, wants to charge you more for AKC papers, offers papers from a registry other than the AKC, or tells you he/she will mail them to you at a later date." But that's about it. 
http://www.akc.org/press-center/facts-stats/responsible-breeders/?page=responsible_breeder


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

what I think is more unethical is that the purchasers pocket determines the rights to the dog rather than pedigree, health, structure, temperment, titles, etc (aka suitability for breeding/show). there should be one price and the papers are limited until.....

increasing the price for papers in my opinion is careless management of your breeding program even more so than a breach to any AKC code of ethics....and precisely why bybs and puppy mills stay in business.

at this point, with this particular dog, yes shady on both sides!!


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Fodder said:


> what I think is more unethical is that the purchasers pocket determines the rights to the dog rather than pedigree, health, structure, temperment, titles, etc (aka suitability for breeding/show). there should be one price and the papers are limited until.....
> 
> increasing the price for papers in my opinion is careless management of your breeding program even more so than a breach to any AKC code of ethics....and precisely why bybs and puppy mills stay in business.
> 
> at this point, with this particular dog, yes shady on both sides!!



I guess I am to naïve but I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they are probably to ignorant to know that this isn't an ethical thing to do since they see so many other people doing it.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Caroline5 said:


> Fodder said:
> 
> 
> > what I think is more unethical is that the purchasers pocket determines the rights to the dog rather than pedigree, health, structure, temperment, titles, etc (aka suitability for breeding/show). there should be one price and the papers are limited until.....
> ...


Ignorance is one thing. But now the breeder is aware of the situation. And once they were made aware, they should have stepped up and gotten their dog back. Instead they are looking to make a buck on the papers.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ I think she is now referring to a litter she's currently interested in that has the same practice of selling with or without papers for different prices. the original post was just brought up as an example..... at least that's what I've been able to gather.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cupcake went as the stud fee to the lady who set up the deal with her contact in Germany. 

She then had serious health changes and sold all her dogs, including cupcake (not named cupcake). 

The dog was similar lines to this pup, Vegas (Pakros his sire), not 100% of whether or not there was Ober on the other side. 

Anyhow, the people that she sold her to, never paid for her. I heard they passed her on to someone else. I see her listed with her name not quite right on PDB. 

The breeder who she was stolen from might be willing to sell her papers to her new owner, since the thief would not benefit, and the dog would be out of the situation. 

The chances that this is the dog are pretty slim I would think. For one thing, my friend who owned her originally and has the papers, was not her breeder. Of course in e-mails and discussions, the actual facts of the situation could be a little blurred. But that might be a situation where someone might be selling a dog for $800 that they do not have the papers for, and the papers would then be sold by the breeder, that would give full registration. 

Generally, though AKC says papers are to go with the dog, and they do not want to be the arbitrators between individuals when the ownership of the dog is in question.

Selling a dog without papers does not prevent them from being bred, but it might prevent them from some breeders. Personally, I think that if you don't trust the people to make appropriate decisions with respect to a dog, you do not sell the dog. Because a limited registration or no papers are no obstacle to some people out there.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Fodder said:


> ^ I think she is now referring to a litter she's currently interested in that has the same practice of selling with or without papers for different prices. the original post was just brought up as an example..... at least that's what I've been able to gather.


No, there are no issues with the litter I am interested in. I just don't want to say who the breeder is etc. because I don't want to jinx anything. I can only say that I am over the top excited about getting a pup from this litter. I just got off of the phone from talking with the breeder and am pretty sure I know which pup we will be getting. She will have all of her papers, her pedigree, her shots, be microchipped, be well socialized, be raised in a very loving home. I just can't say enough about this puppy except I have never had a dog of this caliber. I will post a photo of her as soon as I can get it saved.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Here is the little girl


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

oh, "negotiating" threw me off, I assumed you meant price.


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## Caroline5 (Mar 18, 2016)

Ok, shaking head right now. I just got off of the phone with customer service at the AKC and she told me that there is nothing illegal about someone selling a dog at a lower price and withholding the papers or selling the dog at a higher price with papers. She said she wished it were the same as up in Canada but it isn't.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is nothing unethical about withholding papers....but supporting a breeder that is doing it for something other than the dogs could be a red flag. Because this dog is or was being sold on CL shows IMO that there was no relationship or communication with the breeder of the dog. Or even a contract? I personally know breeders that won't sell with full registration, only limited(but they will go full after health testing and titles are earned) The cost of re-registering is all that is incurred. 
But to charge a grand for said papers is a bit ridiculous.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> . Because this dog is or was being sold on CL shows IMO that there was no relationship or communication with the breeder of the dog. Or even a contract? .


not necessarily. many breeders either lose touch with their owners or the owners simply stop returning phone calls/emails. Other times, the owner simply doesn't tell the breeder that they are rehoming the dog.

A friend who breeds Danes just found out that one of their pups was on Craigslist. The owner never called them and when called told them that they had already rehomed the dog. And, yes, there was a contract. The owner simply decided that they didn't need to contact and would rather try to recoup some money


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

well, that is where the 'relationship' is....or not. And many who sell are not all that interested in keeping track or tabs on what they sell. Once they sell, the owner can do with the pup what they wish. Thus the reason many go to such breeders....they don't want that control over their purchase.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think the AKC can make anything illegal from a government standpoint. Like, WalMart can make rules, and maybe can bar you from the store, but they can't have you charged for wearing red, white, and blue T-shirts, or sandles instead of shoes. (With all the POW press, maybe WalMart should require a dress code.) The AKC, isn't run by the government, so their rules do not make anything illegal. They can just suspend your privileges if you break them, or revoke them completely. 

Maybe the rules have changed. I always understood the papers go with the dog. But, certainly you can sell dogs without papers. I just thought they frown on it if you withhold the papers, like if you promised to pay $300/month for 5 months, and you make three payments and then your puppy eats, a bunch of insulation, and you rush him to the ER, and at the end of the day, you are looking at a bill for $680. Some yayhoos on the internet tell you to call your breeder and see if she can help. So you call, and she tells you she is really sorry that happened, and to let her know how the puppy is doing. So you relay this information to the friends on the internet, and they tell have fun maligning your breeder's character. When it comes time to send the next check the money isn't there, the bad feelings come back, and you decide to ignore it. The following year you are too embarrassed to call your breeder, pay up, and ask the breeder to send you the papers, instead your buddies on the internet tell you to contact the AKC, and try to get papers from them. And, the AKC does not want to arbitrate between buyers and sellers, and they really only have any authority over the sellers, so, I thought it was totally frowned on to place them in any position. It looks like, as long as the buyer and seller sign a contract about payment in full, and sending on the papers, the AKC will stand behind the seller (not issue papers to the buyer). 

From the AKC website:

Chapter 3, Section 6 of Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline states, in part:
"For the purpose of registering or refusing to register purebred dogs The American Kennel Club will recognize only such conditional sale or conditional stud agreements affecting the registration of purebred dogs as are in writing and are shown to have been brought to the attention of the applicant for registration. 

The American Kennel Club cannot recognize alleged conditional sale, conditional stud or other agreements not in writing which affect the registration of purebred dogs, until after the existence, construction and/or affect of the same shall have been determined by an action at law."

*The only contracts that the AKC will enforce will be the withholding of AKC registration papers until a dog is paid for or altered, if the terms are clearly set out in the bill-of-sale and signed by all parties involved in the sale of the dog, this is required by our rules. *

If properly completed AKC registration papers are not supplied with the dog when it is shipped or delivered to someone else, the person delivering or shipping the dog must furnish the person acquiring the dog with a bill of sale or other signed memorandum giving all of the identifying information listed below. A promise of later identification is not acceptable
.
For a Dog Not Yet Individually Registered
Breed
Sex and color and markings
Date of birth
Litter number (when available)
Names and numbers of sire and dam
Name of breeder
Date sold or delivered

For a Registered Dog
Breed
Registered name
Registration number
Date sold or delivered

This identifying information must be supplied with the dog even though AKC papers are not yet available, and even to a person who takes the dog only for resale as an agent or on consignment, and the same information must be passed on by him when he disposes of it. (The only exception to this requirement is when there is a written agreement made between the parties when the dog is delivered specifying that registration papers are never to be given.)

The American Kennel Club considers the purchase of a dog a private transaction between the buyer and the seller. As with any transaction, the seller, or in this case the breeder, we believe should stand behind their product and act as a responsible breeder. Many reputable breeders have different opinions as to the rights of the seller and buyer and buyback/return policies. A contract at the time of sale sometimes will eliminate these questions.

The American Kennel Club supports the breeding of dogs by responsible breeders for the purpose of improving breeds of purebred dogs. The AKC does attempt to foster sound breeding practices through education, funding of research, and inclusion of Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and the Canine Eye Registration Foundation (CERF) data in our records and printed on our registration documents.

The American Kennel Club does not license or endorse anyone engaged in the commerce of selling purebred dogs and, therefore, has little control over the business practices of those involved in such transactions. While The American Kennel Club attempts to foster sound breeding, our jurisdiction is limited to the practices one must follow to ensure proper identification of dogs registered with The American Kennel Club. AKC is a registry body. A Registration Certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. 


*******************************************************************

So, the AKC allows people to withhold papers until the dog is paid for in full or until the dog is altered if there is a contract in writing. 

I always understood papers go with the dog. A lot of people will sell dogs for one price with papers and another price without. That practice is in my opinion only worthwhile for a buyer who wants a bargain. It costs just as much for the breeder to whelp and raise registered puppies as it does unregistered puppies if the puppies are eligible for registration.


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