# Heartbroken, scared, and defeated...



## MollyMarie

I can't sleep because I am scared and heartbroken... I am up scouring the Internet for help. Any help or suggestions you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Here is some background on our GS puppy... Our puppy is 16 weeks old and has extreme fear aggression. He bit a family member (nothing serious) and tried to bite our dog trainer. He was staring at me intently today and lunged towards me, but my daughter grabbed him. I am terrified...

History on puppy:
1. Bought from a backyard breeder (HUGE mistake).
2. Runt of the litter. Weighed less than 4 pounds while his littermates weight almost 10 pounds at the time of pick up.
3. We socialized puppy with lots of dogs, children, and adults.
4. Puppy showed fear of strangers (barking) at 10 weeks.
5. Puppy met my father (in his 70's) and he circled him several times and then lunged and bit the back of his thigh. (no real damage - but scared us all)
6. Met with a behaviorist and puppy tried to bite her. She said she had never seen a puppy like him and would consider putting him down.  She thinks that he was malnourished and has some issues due to that - and possibly confidence issues due to being the runt.
7. Met with a GS trainer and puppy tried to bite him. Signed up for 10 classes - but we are terrified that he'll try to bite trainer and/or dog owners.

We took a malnourished, sickly, flea infested little puppy and he's now a gorgeous young dog of normal weight. He loves my daughters - but seems to be turning on me. I am now terrified and I'm sure he can probably sense that. That said, the LAST thing we want to do is put him down. We love him so very much. <3 

Please give me your input. Will it get worse? Will he outgrow this? Will he eventually turn on my daughters? Is there any trainers in ANY state that have successfully helped puppies/dogs with extreme fear and/or aggression issues? We will do whatever it takes to help our little boy. Please help me!!!


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## onyx'girl

classes for this puppy are not what I would recommend. I would also stop with the 'socializing' as it is too much for the puppy to handle. The GSD trainer thinks putting this pup in a group class is going to help?

I would find someone that can work with fear aggression and help you one on one. I agree, the puppy is probably not 'right' due to the raising, lack of proper nutrition/nurturing. 
Where is your general location? Someone on this board may know of a trainer that can possibly help your puppy gain confidence and teach you how to work with his temperament.


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## Jax08

The puppy is more than 6 months old now. You originally posted you had an 8 week old puppy in January. 

I would do one on one training with him. No group classes. You are going to take him way over his threshhold and won't accomplish anything. Do one on one and put the obedience on him.

Personally, I'm not optimistic. It's really rare to have a puppy that is willing to put a real bite on a person. We bought a Boxer pup, now 10 yrs old, in the exact same situation. She is terribly dog aggressive, I think both genetically from the mother and because she was beaten on from her littermates until it was literally a survival situation. But she has never once bitten a person or even made an attempt too.


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## llombardo

I would take the pup to the vet and rule out all medical. This may be costly due to some tests(mri is one). It would be wise to have him muzzled at the vet. I would see what those results are and go from there.


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## MollyMarie

Jax08 said:


> The puppy is more than 6 months old now. You originally posted you had an 8 week old puppy in January.
> 
> I would do one on one training with him. No group classes. You are going to take him way over his threshhold and won't accomplish anything. Do one on one and put the obedience on him.
> 
> Personally, I'm not optimistic. It's really rare to have a puppy that is willing to put a real bite on a person. We bought a Boxer pup, now 10 yrs old, in the exact same situation. She is terribly dog aggressive, I think both genetically from the mother and because she was beaten on from her littermates until it was literally a survival situation. But she has never once bitten a person or even made an attempt too.


The puppy I posted about in January did not like my small dogs. I knew I would never feel comfortable with him, so we returned him to the breeder in less than 24 hours. Our puppy is 16 weeks and 6 days. He actually loves our little dogs and is very gentle with them.

Thank you for your input regarding classes. I will call the trainer and ask if we can change those to private lessons. 

It is disheartening that you don't feel optimistic. I suppose I am feeling that as well, but am hoping for a miracle. We truly love our little guy and are hoping that someone might know a trainer or program that might be able to help him.


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## MollyMarie

onyx'girl said:


> classes for this puppy are not what I would recommend. I would also stop with the 'socializing' as it is too much for the puppy to handle. The GSD trainer thinks putting this pup in a group class is going to help?
> 
> I would find someone that can work with fear aggression and help you one on one. I agree, the puppy is probably not 'right' due to the raising, lack of proper nutrition/nurturing.
> Where is your general location? Someone on this board may know of a trainer that can possibly help your puppy gain confidence and teach you how to work with his temperament.



Our puppy (so far) seems to do well with other dogs. He has already been through one round of puppy classes and did great. Now that he is people aggressive, I don't know how he would do in a puppy class. 

We live in Oregon - but are willing to travel. If there was someone in another state that could help him - I would fly him there to get the help he needs. Please let me know if you know of anyone who has successfully worked with a puppy like ours.


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## Strikker

I guess I am more optimistic as to this working out and the future of your puppy. I believe that with the right direction and determination from the handler any dog can be well behaved and what you are describing can be fixed.:grin2:
1.	You are going to a GSD trainer, best decision you can make at this point. This trainer should already have ideas of how to work with your puppy and how to teach you to handle this.
2.	The puppy is 16 weeks old. This is not too old to break bad habits and teach right from wrong.
3.	I like group lessons for this puppy. I am a believer in working within the challenge. You may need to work a short distance from others until the puppy can handle, but you cannot teach without the distraction.
4.	You might want to start with a couple private lessons. This allows you to learn how to recognize the signs from your puppy before aggression and how to correct. Also will help the trainer to evaluate your puppy to help you learn.

Don't get me wrong, you have a great deal of work ahead of you. One thing will be you learning to become the an alpha to this puppy. Be ready for the challenge and the frustration that comes with a puppy that needs extra work. Work with your trainer, listen and practice. Do not allow the puppy to get away with anything you do not want, GSD's test the limits anyway don't let him. 
Good luck, from what you posted you have already taken this puppy from sick to healthy congratulations! :grin2: Training is just the next step, there are rewards there too!:grin2:


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## Jax08

Jamie helped a puppy similar to this. It was a very long road and she was never able to place Holly in an appropriate home because there were many set rules the dog needed. Maybe she can give some insight into what you will need to do. 

https://www.facebook.com/BestPawForwardPA/


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## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> Jamie helped a puppy similar to this. It was a very long road and she was never able to place Holly in an appropriate home because there were many set rules the dog needed. Maybe she can give some insight into what you will need to do.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/BestPawForwardPA/


Is this how you want to live with this dog MollyMarie? Its life long management and controlling his environment and access to everything. Creating comfort zones so he can deal with everything. Just think about what you are looking at as love for your daughters. I'd bet he's seeking comfort and security and you threaten that comfort. Maybe next month one of your daughters does. Trainers can't change that, they can just give you a plan to control and manage. Is that something you want?

Some people are cut out for that type of stuff. They can live with a dog like that and still enjoy it. The dog can do ok in that managed environment. He can seem content with things and maybe he learns to deal with his fears to the point you don't have problems. But be prepared for how much work it is vs how much enjoyment there is.


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## LuvShepherds

Your puppy can tell you are terrified and it makes him uncomfortable. You need to find someone who can help you build a relationship with him first. It's admirable you saved a puppy mill type dog, which is what you got, whether from a BYB or something else. Your dogs sounds very much like a rescue dog who has had bad treatment. Not that yours has. It sounds like you have made a few mistakes without realizing it. But the behaviors are the same.

My friend rescued a young puppy like yours and it took a year to get the dog to a place where it could be around people. If you don't have that kind of time or ability to do that, turn it over to a rescue. I would contact a local GSD rescue, tell them the situation and see if they can help you. Rather than take the dog outright, they might be able to recommend a trainer they use who can help you keep the dog if you want to do that. Then if it doesn't work out, you can surrender. It's also possible they can help you rehome the dog and then place a dog that is a better fit with you. Whether it's health related or not, you are in over your head. From the title of your thread, it sounds like you have already given up on the dog.


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## Moriah

MollyMarie said:


> Our puppy (so far) seems to do well with other dogs. He has already been through one round of puppy classes and did great. Now that he is people aggressive, I don't know how he would do in a puppy class.
> 
> We live in Oregon - but are willing to travel. If there was someone in another state that could help him - I would fly him there to get the help he needs. Please let me know if you know of anyone who has successfully worked with a puppy like ours.


Jim Elder at Scatter Creek Kennels in Olympia, WA. He is an expert in dog aggression. He has 35 years experience working with GSDs. He has a website.


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## Sabis mom

MollyMarie said:


> I can't sleep because I am scared and heartbroken... I am up scouring the Internet for help. Any help or suggestions you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Here is some background on our GS puppy... Our puppy is 16 weeks old and has extreme fear aggression. He bit a family member (nothing serious) and tried to bite our dog trainer. He was staring at me intently today and lunged towards me, but my daughter grabbed him. I am terrified...
> 
> History on puppy:
> 1. Bought from a backyard breeder (HUGE mistake).
> 2. Runt of the litter. Weighed less than 4 pounds while his littermates weight almost 10 pounds at the time of pick up.
> 3. We socialized puppy with lots of dogs, children, and adults.
> 4. Puppy showed fear of strangers (barking) at 10 weeks.
> 5. Puppy met my father (in his 70's) and he circled him several times and then lunged and bit the back of his thigh. (no real damage - but scared us all)
> 6. Met with a behaviorist and puppy tried to bite her. She said she had never seen a puppy like him and would consider putting him down.  She thinks that he was malnourished and has some issues due to that - and possibly confidence issues due to being the runt.
> 7. Met with a GS trainer and puppy tried to bite him. Signed up for 10 classes - but we are terrified that he'll try to bite trainer and/or dog owners.
> 
> We took a malnourished, sickly, flea infested little puppy and he's now a gorgeous young dog of normal weight. He loves my daughters - but seems to be turning on me. I am now terrified and I'm sure he can probably sense that. That said, the LAST thing we want to do is put him down. We love him so very much. <3
> 
> Please give me your input. Will it get worse? Will he outgrow this? Will he eventually turn on my daughters? Is there any trainers in ANY state that have successfully helped puppies/dogs with extreme fear and/or aggression issues? We will do whatever it takes to help our little boy. Please help me!!!


Chin up, you have a problem but you can do this.
The fear aggression is likely genetic and will need to be managed more then fixed. Fences, gates with locks, muzzles may all become standard equipment in your world. 
I cannot tell you how many times I was told to put Shadow down, I have cried rivers of tears over her.
I brought home a pup who shouldn't have survived the night. She was underweight, under developed and likely suffered some mental impairment. I ended up with a young dog who was totally self serving, didn't want to be touched and didn't care what I wanted. Now I have a dog who will not leave my side in the house and comes for midnight strolls with me. She isn't perfect but she is perfect for me.
This will be a long road, if you cannot commit then put him down now. But if you can keep your eye on the prize, stop blaming yourself and everyone else and simply work forward the results will be worth it.
In the meantime, keep everyone safe and my thoughts are with you.


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## Sabis mom

Just to add, behaviorist is an idiot. Runts VERY often end up being the best pups in the litter and there is no way that any dog savvy person has not dealt with some level of fear aggression.


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## DutchKarin

I don't know where in OR you are but you could contact Les Flores at De Las Flores Kennels in Ridgefield WA. Might be a travel and I'm guessing there are folks closer to you but Les absolutely KNOWS the shepherds very well and may be able to evaluate this dog and evaluate your skill as a trainer. If you are serious, traveling should not be a big deal.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Is this how you want to live with this dog MollyMarie? Its life long management and controlling his environment and access to everything. Creating comfort zones so he can deal with everything. Just think about what you are looking at as love for your daughters. I'd bet he's seeking comfort and security and you threaten that comfort. Maybe next month one of your daughters does. Trainers can't change that, they can just give you a plan to control and manage. Is that something you want?
> 
> Some people are cut out for that type of stuff. They can live with a dog like that and still enjoy it. The dog can do ok in that managed environment. He can seem content with things and maybe he learns to deal with his fears to the point you don't have problems. But be prepared for how much work it is vs how much enjoyment there is.


I am definitely with Steve on this one. This dog does not seem to be a good fit and there is an excellent potential for things to end badly. Rehoming to an appropriate home or rescue at this age could be a good idea while he is still young and not so steeped in bad behaviors. 

Most people want an easy keeper. Nothing wrong with that especially when one is raising a family. Ten to twelve years of management and control leaves plenty of room for a margin of error. Not only does this lessen the joy of owning a dog for the family, it can quickly turn into quite a burden. Depending on how it is managed and controlled, life may be severely lacking for the dog as well.

OP, since this is your second German Shepherd with problem aggressive behavior, I am just curious if you realize that German Shepherds are bred to protect and guard and that means that aggression should be part of the package deal.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am definitely with Steve on this one. This dog does not seem to be a good fit and there is an excellent potential for things to end badly. Rehoming to an appropriate home or rescue at this age could be a good idea while he is still young and not so steeped in bad behaviors.
> 
> Most people want an easy keeper. Nothing wrong with that especially when one is raising a family. Ten to twelve years of management and control leaves plenty of room for a margin of error. Not only does this lessen the joy of owning a dog for the family, it can quickly turn into quite a burden. Depending on how it is managed and controlled, life may be severely lacking for the dog as well.
> 
> OP, since this is your second German Shepherd with problem aggressive behavior, I am just curious if you realize that German Shepherds are bred to protect and guard and that means that aggression should be part of the package deal.


My only fear with rehoming dogs with this type of behavior is that they tend to be the ones who end up stuck in a cycle of home to home to home or shelter to shelter. Unless they end up with the right person who can work through the behaviors they are screwed, and sadly far to many people like the 'big, bad, and nasty' image so it gets encouraged.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> My only fear with rehoming dogs with this type of behavior is that they tend to be the ones who end up stuck in a cycle of home to home to home or shelter to shelter. Unless they end up with the right person who can work through the behaviors they are screwed, and sadly far to many people like the 'big, bad, and nasty' image so it gets encouraged.


I guess I should have been clearer on that point and qualified it by stating to an appropriate home. My bad. This is definitely not a dog that should be given to just any home as the cycle will perpetuate, rinse and repeat.

I don't find anything wrong with somebody wanting big, bad, and nasty as long as they can provide an appropriate home where the dog can thrive. There is a lid to every pot.


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## Thecowboysgirl

My 2c:

There is nothing worse than an animal with an aggression problem and a human who is afraid of it. Well, maybe a human whose ego is threatened and feels they have to show it who is boss.

The mindset needs to be neither of those in my opinion The mindset needs to be: a realistic understanding of what the animal is and what it is capable of (REALISTIC key word). Then a cool headed plan as to how to handle any possible issues so you aren't caught off guard. When you know what to do and how to prevent dangerous things from happening, it isnt so scary. It just is what is it. I doubt the OP has the knowledge and experience to be able to figure out that realistic understanding and plan but maybe some of the trainers suggested can. I would make that priority #1. If you can't get the dog to those trainers regularly due to distance perhaps they can recommend someone closer, since they are in the general vicinity. 

That's assuming you keep the dog. Because I also agree with Steve Strom. I am one of those people who will gladly and successfully manage a difficult or dangerous dog for life but it isn't the sort of lifestyle most people expect or will tolerate.


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## MollyMarie

MollyMarie said:


> I can't sleep because I am scared and heartbroken... I am up scouring the Internet for help. Any help or suggestions you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Here is some background on our GS puppy... Our puppy is 16 weeks old and has extreme fear aggression. He bit a family member (nothing serious) and tried to bite our dog trainer. He was staring at me intently today and lunged towards me, but my daughter grabbed him. I am terrified...
> 
> History on puppy:
> 1. Bought from a backyard breeder (HUGE mistake).
> 2. Runt of the litter. Weighed less than 4 pounds while his littermates weight almost 10 pounds at the time of pick up.
> 3. We socialized puppy with lots of dogs, children, and adults.
> 4. Puppy showed fear of strangers (barking) at 10 weeks.
> 5. Puppy met my father (in his 70's) and he circled him several times and then lunged and bit the back of his thigh. (no real damage - but scared us all)
> 6. Met with a behaviorist and puppy tried to bite her. She said she had never seen a puppy like him and would consider putting him down.  She thinks that he was malnourished and has some issues due to that - and possibly confidence issues due to being the runt.
> 7. Met with a GS trainer and puppy tried to bite him. Signed up for 10 classes - but we are terrified that he'll try to bite trainer and/or dog owners.
> 
> We took a malnourished, sickly, flea infested little puppy and he's now a gorgeous young dog of normal weight. He loves my daughters - but seems to be turning on me. I am now terrified and I'm sure he can probably sense that. That said, the LAST thing we want to do is put him down. We love him so very much. <3
> 
> Please give me your input. Will it get worse? Will he outgrow this? Will he eventually turn on my daughters? Is there any trainers in ANY state that have successfully helped puppies/dogs with extreme fear and/or aggression issues? We will do whatever it takes to help our little boy. Please help me!!!


I would like to add an addendum to my original post:

A) I wanted to clarify that the behaviorist was extremely supportive and professional. We have not been given a final written report/recommendation. In the meantime, we are continuing with training and searching for a solution. The behaviorist did NOT recommend (at this time) that he should be put down. I think there was a miscommunication (on our part) in regard to that issue, so I wanted to clear that up.

B) I am not sure that our puppy was trying to bite me. I felt he was - but it could have simply been puppy playing - but I am now gun-shy and afraid. I spent time with him today and he was nothing but gentle and sweet.


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## MollyMarie

Moriah said:


> Jim Elder at Scatter Creek Kennels in Olympia, WA. He is an expert in dog aggression. He has 35 years experience working with GSDs. He has a website.


Thank you for the recommendation. We will contact him.


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## MollyMarie

DutchKarin said:


> I don't know where in OR you are but you could contact Les Flores at De Las Flores Kennels in Ridgefield WA. Might be a travel and I'm guessing there are folks closer to you but Les absolutely KNOWS the shepherds very well and may be able to evaluate this dog and evaluate your skill as a trainer. If you are serious, traveling should not be a big deal.


We are very serious about getting help. Thank you for the recommendation . We will contact him.


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## Steve Strom

MollyMarie said:


> I would like to add an addendum to my original post:
> 
> A) I wanted to clarify that the behaviorist was extremely supportive and professional. We have not been given a final written report/recommendation. In the meantime, we are continuing with training and searching for a solution. The behaviorist did NOT recommend (at this time) that he should be put down. I think there was a miscommunication (on our part) in regard to that issue, so I wanted to clear that up.
> 
> B) I am not sure that our puppy was trying to bite me. I felt he was - but it could have simply been puppy playing - but now I am gun shy and afraid. I spent time with him today and he was nothing but gentle and sweet.


Its always possible you aren't completely sure of what you're seeing and what it may actually be as far as his intent. Hopefully he does try to bite the trainer. If your going to get help from him, he has to see the problem.



> 5. Puppy met my father (in his 70's) and he circled him several times and then lunged and bit the back of his thigh. (no real damage - but scared us all)


If this is accurate, this would really bother me. There's nothing good about it and there isn't any way to justify it. The only thing to excuse it would be the puppy chasing your 70yr old father because his prey drive kicked in. Was your dad running from him?


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## MollyMarie

Strikker said:


> I guess I am more optimistic as to this working out and the future of your puppy. I believe that with the right direction and determination from the handler any dog can be well behaved and what you are describing can be fixed.:grin2:
> 1. You are going to a GSD trainer, best decision you can make at this point. This trainer should already have ideas of how to work with your puppy and how to teach you to handle this.
> 2. The puppy is 16 weeks old. This is not too old to break bad habits and teach right from wrong.
> 3. I like group lessons for this puppy. I am a believer in working within the challenge. You may need to work a short distance from others until the puppy can handle, but you cannot teach without the distraction.
> 4. You might want to start with a couple private lessons. This allows you to learn how to recognize the signs from your puppy before aggression and how to correct. Also will help the trainer to evaluate your puppy to help you learn.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, you have a great deal of work ahead of you. One thing will be you learning to become the an alpha to this puppy. Be ready for the challenge and the frustration that comes with a puppy that needs extra work. Work with your trainer, listen and practice. Do not allow the puppy to get away with anything you do not want, GSD's test the limits anyway don't let him.
> Good luck, from what you posted you have already taken this puppy from sick to healthy congratulations! :grin2: Training is just the next step, there are rewards there too!:grin2:


I am so happy that you feel optimistic.  Thank you for your kind words, suggestions, and encouragement.


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## MollyMarie

Steve Strom said:


> Its always possible you aren't completely sure of what you're seeing and what it may actually be as far as his intent. Hopefully he does try to bite the trainer. If your going to get help from him, he has to see the problem.
> 
> 
> If this is accurate, this would really bother me. There's nothing good about it and there isn't any way to justify it. The only thing to excuse it would be the puppy chasing your 70yr old father because his prey drive kicked in. Was your dad running from him?


He was staring intently at me and then lunged. My daughter grabbed him before he got to me. My other daughter felt 100% certain that he was not going to bite. I felt pretty certain he would have bit - but now I am overly afraid because I've seen what he can do.

My father and his wife drove two hours to come meet our new puppy (this was less than two weeks ago and the FIRST time he showed aggression - other than barking). They walked in with a goody bag full of toys and treats. Our puppy would not relax and kept barking at them - even when the treats were brought out. We went outside and he relaxed a little bit. My father then went in the house to use the restroom and when he came out - our puppy ran to him, started circling him, and then lunged at him from behind and nipped his leg). We were in complete shock. My father told him "no" and then sat down. When they left, we put the leash on so he could not nip my father again. We all felt that he did this out of fear, although my father came bearing treats and toys and is a sweet and gentle man.

I don't know...


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## Steve Strom

His perception of things, it isn't going to match peoples intentions. The toy's or treats don't register the way you mean them to. In another month or so, no one will be able to just ignore a bite like that. Think really hard about living with a dog you don't trust and what he's capable of at 5mos compared to now.

Its one thing to live with a dog thats suspicious and untrusting of strangers or others not in your immediate, live in family. You just keep him away from them and ask strangers to ignore him while he's at a safe distance in public. I'd think about whats going on with him lunging at you while he's close to your daughter. I'd look at that as him seeking shelter from her and defending himself from you entering that. That can be situational and lead to someone getting seriously bit with you thinking it came out of nowhere. That level of management can be a pain to live with. If I have to worry about that with my kids, dogs gone. Think with logic, not feelings and really, really keep in mind what your capable of. A trainer can teach some things, but he won't always be there.


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## MollyMarie

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My 2c:
> 
> There is nothing worse than an animal with an aggression problem and a human who is afraid of it. Well, maybe a human whose ego is threatened and feels they have to show it who is boss.
> 
> The mindset needs to be neither of those in my opinion The mindset needs to be: a realistic understanding of what the animal is and what it is capable of (REALISTIC key word). Then a cool headed plan as to how to handle any possible issues so you aren't caught off guard. When you know what to do and how to prevent dangerous things from happening, it isnt so scary. It just is what is it. I doubt the OP has the knowledge and experience to be able to figure out that realistic understanding and plan but maybe some of the trainers suggested can. I would make that priority #1. If you can't get the dog to those trainers regularly due to distance perhaps they can recommend someone closer, since they are in the general vicinity.
> 
> That's assuming you keep the dog. Because I also agree with Steve Strom. I am one of those people who will gladly and successfully manage a difficult or dangerous dog for life but it isn't the sort of lifestyle most people expect or will tolerate.


Thank you for your input. You are correct, we don't have the expertise to deal with these issues and it is virtually keeping me up at night. With us, he is the sweetest, funniest, most adorable puppy in the world - then the reality sets in that his issues are so huge and we don't know how to fix them. It's breaking my heart. 

I do agree with your statement, "Then a cool headed plan as to how to handle any possible issues so you aren't caught off guard. When you know what to do and how to prevent dangerous things from happening, it isn't so scary."

That is exactly correct. I do NOT want to be caught off guard. I need a plan. I want to know what to do if he were to turn on me. I am scared - but love him and want to make this work.


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## MollyMarie

Steve Strom said:


> His perception of things, it isn't going to match peoples intentions. The toy's or treats don't register the way you mean them to. In another month or so, no one will be able to just ignore a bite like that. Think really hard about living with a dog you don't trust and what he's capable of at 5mos compared to now.
> 
> Its one thing to live with a dog thats suspicious and untrusting of strangers or others not in your immediate, live in family. You just keep him away from them and ask strangers to ignore him while he's at a safe distance in public. I'd think about whats going on with him lunging at you while he's close to your daughter. I'd look at that as him seeking shelter from her and defending himself from you entering that. That can be situational and lead to someone getting seriously bit with you thinking it came out of nowhere. That level of management can be a pain to live with. If I have to worry about that with my kids, dogs gone. Think with logic, not feelings and really, really keep in mind what your capable of. A trainer can teach some things, but he won't always be there.


I know, Steve. I am literally in tears as I write this to you... I am so afraid. I am afraid for my daughters. I am afraid for our beautiful puppy that we love so dearly. Just yesterday we were tossing sliced apple into his pool - watching him jump in and out and 
blowing bubbles - then rolling around in the grass eating his apple. He is adorable and we love him so much. 

What are my options? We could try to rehome him - but who would take on a puppy that WILL bite. The only other option would be to put him to sleep - which we can't bare to consider.


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## Steve Strom

I know MollyMarie. There's nothing easy about it. I don't believe you can "fix" temperament. I can't see your puppy and I don't know what you could live with, but obedience never hurts. If you have access to a good trainer, not behaviorist, and being consistent and sticking to a structured routine are things you're good at, maybe you're the type to do ok with this. I don't own dogs just to provide what they need. If there isn't something in for me, well, I wouldn't own them. 

If there's any chance he's a danger to your daughters, I wouldn't do it. If he's a danger to you, I wouldn't do it. We all love dogs,but you really have to think hard about it.


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## selzer

We are afraid of and have contemplated putting down a 16 week old puppy? 

You returned a baby puppy within 24 hours because you did not think it was going to get along with your small dogs?

Folks, it is possible that this is an ordinary puppy, with ordinary temperament, but the owners have inadvertently taught him to be a little tyrant. The owners can have certainly walked out in the process of "socializing" this puppy, lacking in confidence and teaching it to react to strangers. The thing is, we don't know. 

We also don't know whether the behaviorist is seeing dollar signs, and is playing them like a violin. Don't know. 

I am loathe to diagnose temperament over what ANYONE posts on the internet, including a recommendation from a trainer/behaviorist -- too many really do not known aggressive from reactive, stubborn from shut down, hard from soft. 

I think the real questions have to do with the family: why did they choose to get a GSD? Is it the right breed for the temperament and make up of the family? Maybe the puppy isn't a lost cause, but maybe it isn't right for this family. So then what do we do with the puppy? 

I have a 17 week old puppy. She jumps like a gazzelle, weighs 32 pounds, and takes treats a little too greedily, but afraid of her? It is hard to comprehend. If you are afraid of a baby like this, then maybe this isn't the right breed for you.


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## cdwoodcox

I will admit I haven't read every post on this thread. However, I couldn't help but to think while reading the OP that maybe this puppy is completely normal. I have a 12 week old puppy who barks at people, dogs whichever she is trying to play with. She will bite the back of pant legs, jump and bite shorts, try and chew everything possible. Still tries to bite hands, arms, occasionally ankles and lower legs. Lord knows she will chase anything. I just chalked it up to being a puppy. I never even thought a pup as young as the OP's pup could actually have aggression. Could the pup just be a high drive or high energy pup and acting 100% normal. Can a 4 month old pup be truly aggressive, or fear reactive towards people.


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## Fodder

yes a 4 mo is capable of being fear reactive towards people.


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## MollyMarie

selzer said:


> We are afraid of and have contemplated putting down a 16 week old puppy?
> 
> You returned a baby puppy within 24 hours because you did not think it was going to get along with your small dogs?
> 
> Folks, it is possible that this is an ordinary puppy, with ordinary temperament, but the owners have inadvertently taught him to be a little tyrant. The owners can have certainly walked out in the process of "socializing" this puppy, lacking in confidence and teaching it to react to strangers. The thing is, we don't know.
> 
> We also don't know whether the behaviorist is seeing dollar signs, and is playing them like a violin. Don't know.
> 
> I am loathe to diagnose temperament over what ANYONE posts on the internet, including a recommendation from a trainer/behaviorist -- too many really do not known aggressive from reactive, stubborn from shut down, hard from soft.
> 
> I think the real questions have to do with the family: why did they choose to get a GSD? Is it the right breed for the temperament and make up of the family? Maybe the puppy isn't a lost cause, but maybe it isn't right for this family. So then what do we do with the puppy?
> 
> I have a 17 week old puppy. She jumps like a gazzelle, weighs 32 pounds, and takes treats a little too greedily, but afraid of her? It is hard to comprehend. If you are afraid of a baby like this, then maybe this isn't the right breed for you.


 


1. Yes. I am afraid of him. No. We are not contemplating putting him down. These issues started less than two weeks ago and he's already seen a GSD dog trainer, a behaviorist, and we have an appointment this upcoming week to see another trainer that is a 6 1/2 hour round-trip drive from our house. I think that shows commitment.

2. The other puppy was too aggressive with our tiny dogs. We saw that as a red flag. He was a great dog - just not for our family. We made this decision quickly as to not upset the puppy. 

3. This is NOT an ordinary puppy. I grew up with 2 GSD. I have raised approximately 10 dogs from puppyhood to adult with zero issues - including two Australian Shepherds. 

4. The behaviorist is well-respected, professional, and very concerned about us and our puppy. Besides the minimal cost of the consultation, she has called to check on our puppy several times and never asked for an additional dime. 

5. I don't know the exact issues with our puppy and that is why we are seeking professional help. That is why I came to this forum for help.

6. I wouldn't consider a puppy jumping like a gazelle or taking treats too greedily an issue. If that's all I had to worry about - I would be the happiest dog owner on the planet. I do NOT consider it normal for a puppy (at this young age) to charge people while barking wildly and then trying to bite them aggressively to be a "normal" puppy issue.


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## onyx'girl

I know you said this pup came from a BYB...but is there any pedigree info you could share? I'd be curious to see the lines and generations behind your puppy


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## LuvShepherds

If the new trainer is good, she will be able to pull out the behaviors to observe them and give you an analysis. Biting from the rear is extremely serious because it's intentional. You can get good information here, but the best way to decide on your next step with the dog is to use the behaviorist you found.


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## MollyMarie

cdwoodcox said:


> I will admit I haven't read every post on this thread. However, I couldn't help but to think while reading the OP that maybe this puppy is completely normal. I have a 12 week old puppy who barks at people, dogs whichever she is trying to play with. She will bite the back of pant legs, jump and bite shorts, try and chew everything possible. Still tries to bite hands, arms, occasionally ankles and lower legs. Lord knows she will chase anything. I just chalked it up to being a puppy. I never even thought a pup as young as the OP's pup could actually have aggression. Could the pup just be a high drive or high energy pup and acting 100% normal. Can a 4 month old pup be truly aggressive, or fear reactive towards people.


Oh, our puppy loves to bite our pants when we run with him, he jumps up and nips at our hands, he tries to eat rocks and sticks - but he also let's us dig them out of his mouth.  He's a normal, funny, adorable puppy.  Before the aggression started, I told my daughters that he is the most well-behaved puppy we've ever had. BUT... There is another side to him which is terrifying. If I had a video I would post it. I definitely believe he is fear reactive towards people.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Hmmm. I have not raised a ton of puppies. Mostly adult rescues. But my puppy did go through the damndest phases. It was like he would get on a kick about some random thing, be obsessed for a little while and if I just gave it a short sustained effort to change it it would be like it never happened (assuming it was something negative) 

My least favorite was when he decided poop was great and then realize it came out of his butt and he would be trying to eat up his snacks as they came out :shocked::hammer: You better believe I was on hand to nip that one in the bud.


I guess I got the impression that this puppy was a problem and not right from day 1? If this whole thing has started and reached this point in such a short period of time...I don't know exacttly what I am trying to say other than fear period gone awry?


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## LuvShepherds

MollyMarie said:


> Oh, our puppy loves to bite our pants when we run with him, he jumps up and nips at our hands, he tries to eat rocks and sticks - but he also let's us dig them out of his mouth.  He's a normal, funny, adorable puppy.  Before the aggression started, I told my daughters that he is the most well-behaved puppy we've ever had. BUT... There is another side to him which is terrifying. If I had a video I would post it. I definitely believe he is fear reactive towards people.


If he is fear reactive and the trainer thinks it can be eliminated, you will need to work on confidence building with the trainer. My friend who worked with the puppy for a year has had excellent results doing that. The dog was given up by two different families for aggression before she adopted him at 11 weeks. She spent a lot of time desensitizing him. He wasn't biting, though, just snarling a lot at dogs and people both.

Since you are experienced with the breed, the sudden and unexplained aggression could be health related, so it's good you are getting that checked out.


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## carmspack

what is the body language of this dog when it is in the bite mode.

is he stalking , making prey , or is he tense and stiff and hackling .

to me it sounds like intense life long vigilant management .

what did the behaviourist say ?


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## MollyMarie

LuvShepherds said:


> If the new trainer is good, she will be able to pull out the behaviors to observe them and give you an analysis. Biting from the rear is extremely serious because it's intentional. You can get good information here, but the best way to decide on your next step with the dog is to use the behaviorist you found.


I agree. It was very intentional when he nipped/bit my father from behind. He actually jumped as he got him at the top of his thigh. 

I don't believe the behaviorist will be working with him. Actually, he would not let her get near him - even with treats. I believe we are to seek training help with a professional GSD trainer.


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## Baillif

I'm in North Carolina. I can handle pups like that. 

dogabilitync.com or PM me if you're serious.


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## MollyMarie

LuvShepherds said:


> If he is fear reactive and the trainer thinks it can be eliminated, you will need to work on confidence building with the trainer. My friend who worked with the puppy for a year has had excellent results doing that. The dog was given up by two different families for aggression before she adopted him at 11 weeks. She spent a lot of time desensitizing him. He wasn't biting, though, just snarling a lot at dogs and people both.
> 
> Since you are experienced with the breed, the sudden and unexplained aggression could be health related, so it's good you are getting that checked out.


That's good to hear that your friend had excellent results. Oh, and I was only a child when we had two GSD. I just remember they were both really nice and BIG.


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## MollyMarie

Baillif said:


> I'm in North Carolina. I can handle pups like that.
> 
> dogabilitync.com or PM me if you're serious.


Seriously???  I will look at your website and then send you a PM. Thank you!!!


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## selzer

biting from behind is often chicken-blank biting. The dog will cower from your face, but will run after you turn and nip or bite from behind. Not good character. Generally more of a fear-reactive-aggressive thing. Not something I would think impossible to improve somewhat. 

Right now changes are happening with this pup. He is losing his puppy license -- shouldn't be an issue except with other dogs. He is also at an age when they recognize that some people are strangers and they may be more cautious around them. Reactive behavior might begin. How we respond to reactive behavior can make a difference. 

Growing up with GSDs doesn't mean you have them down. There are GSDs and GSDs, and they can act totally different one from another, and neither are bad or incorrect. It would be interesting to see the pedigree, to see the dogs behind the puppy. Someone might have some insight into that.


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## MollyMarie

selzer said:


> biting from behind is often chicken-blank biting. The dog will cower from your face, but will run after you turn and nip or bite from behind. Not good character. Generally more of a fear-reactive-aggressive thing. Not something I would think impossible to improve somewhat.
> 
> Right now changes are happening with this pup. He is losing his puppy license -- shouldn't be an issue except with other dogs. He is also at an age when they recognize that some people are strangers and they may be more cautious around them. Reactive behavior might begin. How we respond to reactive behavior can make a difference.
> 
> Growing up with GSDs doesn't mean you have them down. There are GSDs and GSDs, and they can act totally different one from another, and neither are bad or incorrect. It would be interesting to see the pedigree, to see the dogs behind the puppy. Someone might have some insight into that.


How do you personally think that fear reactive behavior can be improved upon? Any tips/suggestions would be great. 

What did you mean by losing his puppy license shouldn't be an issue except with other dogs? Do you think I should stop letting my tiny dogs play with him? As of now, he loves playing with them and especially licks one non-stop. That said, if he were to turn on them, it would be devastating.

I don't have ANY real experience with GSD's - other than having vague memories of them as a child. They were good dogs - not at all aggressive, so I only have fond memories.


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## MollyMarie

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hmmm. I have not raised a ton of puppies. Mostly adult rescues. But my puppy did go through the damndest phases. It was like he would get on a kick about some random thing, be obsessed for a little while and if I just gave it a short sustained effort to change it it would be like it never happened (assuming it was something negative)
> 
> My least favorite was when he decided poop was great and then realize it came out of his butt and he would be trying to eat up his snacks as they came out :shocked::hammer: You better believe I was on hand to nip that one in the bud.
> 
> 
> I guess I got the impression that this puppy was a problem and not right from day 1? If this whole thing has started and reached this point in such a short period of time...I don't know exacttly what I am trying to say other than fear period gone awry?


My daughter always felt he was a bit off, but I thought it was due to him being so malnourished, sickly, and flea ridden. He was always leery of adults (not children), but the barking didn't start until recently. I honestly think his fear is getting worse each day - which is rather scary.

Poop eating. Sounds delightful. LOL!


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## LuvShepherds

MollyMarie said:


> That's good to hear that your friend had excellent results. Oh, and I was only a child when we had two GSD. I just remember they were both really nice and BIG.


Yes, my friend had good results, but she is an experienced handler. She rehabilitates for a rescue. You do need a very strong trainer. Good luck.


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## carmspack

what did you do , how did you handle the dog after he bit?

still trying to picture the dog when he is "aggressive" whether he is making prey or not.

what are you seeing that makes you think he is fearful?


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## MollyMarie

carmspack said:


> what did you do , how did you handle the dog after he bit?
> 
> still trying to picture the dog when he is "aggressive" whether he is making prey or not.
> 
> what are you seeing that makes you think he is fearful?


When he bit my father, we told him "No!" and that was it. We didn't know what to do. We were in shock.

When he tried to bite our trainer (I believe he just got his pants) - he handled it perfectly (from what I've read). He lifted up his leash and he yelped a couple of times and then he walked him. 

What do you mean by "making prey?" I realize I have a lot to learn. Thank you for your help.


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## Springbrz

I'm not a trainer or an expert by any means but I have noted a repeated theme of fear in your pup and you. I have a few questions.

When your puppy was barking and lunging when your father first entered your home what did you do to stop the behavior, if anything? You say the pup didn't stop even when offered treats by your father. Can I ask why you let pup roam freely around your dad after seeing this behavior? I'm not trying to lay blame. Just trying to understand what boundaries have been set for this pup. Is he crate trained? Other than puppy class what other obedience do you do or have you done with him? When he misbehaves what corrections does he get? Before these incidents how were greetings with strangers handled? Did everyone get so greet your puppy? Again just trying to get a better sense of the overall situation.

IMO your fear (by your own admission) is going to be a big obstacle in working with this issue. Even a pup can sense fear and he will play off it. If he is indeed human fear aggressive it's a him or you (you being anyone that he feels threatened by) scenario in his mind. He will challenge you and when you show fear he wins over his own fear. His sense of your fear will only help him build confidence that his aggressive tactics are working to protect himself. You CAN'T be afraid of your own dog and train him. It just won't work. You have to be a strong confident leader.

So I ask...Do you feel you can overcome your current fear of him? If you can't then you may not be able to work through this issue even with a good trainer. Be honest with yourself because I think this is a very important factor in how you move forward.


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## selzer

MollyMarie said:


> How do you personally think that fear reactive behavior can be improved upon? Any tips/suggestions would be great.
> 
> Fear/reactive behavior can be improved upon. Actually it is multi-step process that improves the situation from different angles. You do not coddle, you do not reward fearful behavior. When you recognize it, it is your cue to increase training with an emphasis on building confidence, and building the bond between you and the pup. The idea is that the dog will relax more if he trusts you to handle things. And, by using a venue like agility, where you use lots of action, lots of praise, lots of accomplishment, you build the dog's confidence in himself and in you. At the same time, you are learning your dog's body language and thresholds and learning to manage the environment so to keep him below his threshold and so that you ACT before the dog reacts: Walking down the street and you see a person coming in the opposite direction. Instead of tightening up on the leash, and waiting for the pup to start barking and lunging, you ACT, you tell the pup to Heal and adjust your direction to keep distance between the other person, or you move off the path, and tell your pup to SIT and to look at you. Giving a command while the object is still far enough away, and the dog knows the command, and focuses on you. When it goes well (your timing and distance was good), your pup learns that he must listen to you even when there is something going on, but you will keep him safe.
> 
> It can be improved upon. You are not changing the temperament, but you are learning to manage him in such a way that you become more confident, and he becomes more confident, and incidents (which if they continue reinforce his negative behavior) become fewer and fewer until there are no incidents.
> 
> What did you mean by losing his puppy license shouldn't be an issue except with other dogs? Do you think I should stop letting my tiny dogs play with him? As of now, he loves playing with them and especially licks one non-stop. That said, if he were to turn on them, it would be devastating.
> 
> The puppy license is what other dogs give him, while he is a puppy. Dogs don't generally train other dogs until they are around 4-5 months old. Up to that point, the pups can bite ears and chase tails and bump up against the adult dog with no repercussions. Somewhere between 4 and 5 months, adult dogs start giving him a smack down. "Whelp! Cut that crap out or I'll clean your clock!" It doesn't mean he will suddenly decide to eat your small dog. However, you better get his behavior in check or one day, your small dog is going to be trotting by like he owns the big Shep, and the big Shep will say "Oh, heck no!" This behavior is more likely in homes where leadership is questionable. And it is ofter the little dogs who start it. But the big dog can do damage. On the other hand, tons of big dogs live happily with little dogs all their lives.
> 
> 
> I don't have ANY real experience with GSD's - other than having vague memories of them as a child. They were good dogs - not at all aggressive, so I only have fond memories.


Yes, this is true, and this can be a problem. GSDs are not like all dogs. Some of them do require an owner who is going to be a good leader. Someone they will follow. We call them landsharks because they can bite. A lot. Totally normal. They need to be exercised in mind and body. They are smart, strong, athletic, and they were bred to have aggression. The can also be hard or soft in temperament. Hard dogs can take punishment and bounce right back. Soft dogs will often shut down if corrected, and it can look like stubborness, at which the owner becomes more harsh, and pup retreats further, not wanting to make a mistake. They can be wonderfully responsive to their owners. They can also become unhealthily protective of family members -- can happen when there is poor leadership and a puppy thinks that the owner cannot protect him. He must protect himself. He will make bad decisions. 

You might want to read up on NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free. Not all Sheps need this but it is a good starting place for new onwers to try to get back on track with a pup that is not under control.


----------



## MollyMarie

Springbrz said:


> I'm not a trainer or an expert by any means but I have noted a repeated theme of fear in your pup and you. I have a few questions.
> 
> When your puppy was barking and lunging when your father first entered your home what did you do to stop the behavior, if anything? You say the pup didn't stop even when offered treats by your father. Can I ask why you let pup roam freely around your dad after seeing this behavior? I'm not trying to lay blame. Just trying to understand what boundaries have been set for this pup. Is he crate trained? Other than puppy class what other obedience do you do or have you done with him? When he misbehaves what corrections does he get? Before these incidents how were greetings with strangers handled? Did everyone get so greet your puppy? Again just trying to get a better sense of the overall situation.
> 
> IMO your fear (by your own admission) is going to be a big obstacle in working with this issue. Even a pup can sense fear and he will play off it. If he is indeed human fear aggressive it's a him or you (you being anyone that he feels threatened by) scenario in his mind. He will challenge you and when you show fear he wins over his own fear. His sense of your fear will only help him build confidence that his aggressive tactics are working to protect himself. You CAN'T be afraid of your own dog and train him. It just won't work. You have to be a strong confident leader.
> 
> So I ask...Do you feel you can overcome your current fear of him? If you can't then you may not be able to work through this issue even with a good trainer. Be honest with yourself because I think this is a very important factor in how you move forward.


Up until the day he nipped my father, he had only barked at people (he had never nipped or lunged) so he was not on leash inside of our home. We went to the front yard, hoping we could play with him and he'd relax. He laid on the blanket chewing a bone they brought him, so we thought he was okay. As I've said before, when my father returned from the restroom, our puppy got up, circled him, and then nipped from behind. It happened so fast!

If I had the tools to learn to work with him and identify the signs of when he's afraid - I could definitely work with him. I will have to get over my fear somehow. I'm trying...


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## MollyMarie

selzer said:


> Yes, this is true, and this can be a problem. GSDs are not like all dogs. Some of them do require an owner who is going to be a good leader. Someone they will follow. We call them landsharks because they can bite. A lot. Totally normal. They need to be exercised in mind and body. They are smart, strong, athletic, and they were bred to have aggression. The can also be hard or soft in temperament. Hard dogs can take punishment and bounce right back. Soft dogs will often shut down if corrected, and it can look like stubborness, at which the owner becomes more harsh, and pup retreats further, not wanting to make a mistake. They can be wonderfully responsive to their owners. They can also become unhealthily protective of family members -- can happen when there is poor leadership and a puppy thinks that the owner cannot protect him. He must protect himself. He will make bad decisions.
> 
> You might want to read up on NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free. Not all Sheps need this but it is a good starting place for new onwers to try to get back on track with a pup that is not under control.


When you say GSD's are landsharks and can bite. A lot. What do you mean by that? They bite their owners a lot? Please clarify what you mean.

I just got on Amazon to buy the book. Thank you for the suggestion. I will read that ASAP.


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## MollyMarie

LuvShepherds said:


> Yes, my friend had good results, but she is an experienced handler. She rehabilitates for a rescue. You do need a very strong trainer. Good luck.


That is what we need. A very strong trainer who can train US as well. Thank you for your help.


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## onyx'girl

You don't need to buy a book to read up on NILIF....here is an article that explains it: Nothing in Life is Free


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## Casto

Some people are not meant to be dog owners, not saying this is the case here, but this puppy in another home with a pack leader would be a start. I would say put on a pinch collar and take control, but some people can't take control. When you are introducing your dog to someone and you are hinging on the moment your dog bites that said person KNOWING its gonna happen... you never give the dog a chance. You are telling it to bite grandpa. If your dog has enough time to circle someone to gain positional advantage and then lunge to bite... you did not do your job as leader. 

Your pup is still young, start creating good habbits. It's not to late. Im new here, you will get plenty of advice on how to control your dog. It's time to start controlling yourself.

Some of the best moral and intelligent humans I know raise the worst dogs... big or small. Teach calm, dogs have anxiety too!


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## selzer

I would NOT resort to a prong collar at 16 weeks old. 

I am sorry, but if you go to the big guns right out of the gate, what will you do when you have 75 pounds of snarling insanity that could care less about the prong collar around his neck. It is unnecessary and can create a dog that is impervious to corrections that are not completely abusive. If we cannot manage a 4 month old pup without a prong or an e-collar than we should relinquish the puppy. 

My guess is there might be lots of information on NILIF. An article was sited by Onyx girl, and I would probably go with that, rather than buying a book. 

Yes, landsharks bite their owners. In fact, it is less common for a puppy to bite anyone outside of the pack because protection drives have not kicked in yet. Biting out of defense might happen though. Every puppy has a different level (threshold) where they will bite to protect themselves. This biting can be family or strangers. Landshark-puppy biting is neither protection or defense biting. It is playing, trying to engage you in a puppy-game. Puppies run and play with each other, often quite rough with growls and bites. It is up to us to civilize the little monsters. Because we do not have dog-hide and we don't like to come away with bloody wounds from a play session. Generally, we teach them to not put their teeth on us or on our children. With some people an abrupt stoppage of the play/interaction that escalated to biting is enough -- this is what puppies in the litter do when a puppy bites too hard. They won't play with him, and the puppy learns to be more carful (bite inhibition). Puppies raised in questionable circumstances, or singletons, or pups that go home too early may exhibit a problem with this, and it can be worthwhile to look up bite-inhibition if you think this might be the case with your puppy.

Some people suggest squealing when the puppy bites too hard. I am not a fan of this method because toys squeal, puppies squeal when playing, and it can actually be rewarding to get the owner engaged and squealing. The puppy needs to hear a solid, OUCH! and either and immediate correction, or an immediate end to the game. The puppy needs to connect his action to the response/end of what he wants to do with you. Place him on the other side of a baby gate if necessary.

I don't believe in using crates for punishment. However, crating a dog so you can take a break is ok, so long as the time in the crate doesn't become abusive. Also, shutting the dog in a bathroom or laundry room isn't a good idea. Put up a baby gate and put him over the baby gate in the area -- but he still sees and hears the family -- it is not isolation. It is for taking a break. The room should be puppy proof, he should have toys in there, and he should not be put in with a full bladder/bowel. 

My parents put up a big child-yard in the middle of the living room for when the grand children came over. Their toys were in the child yard. The children could escape from the puppy by playing in their yard. It worked out nicely. The kids got too big to want to be cooped up, but by then, they were hardy enough to stand their ground with the dog, and the dog was mature enough to respect baby humans.


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## Jax08

OP - did you reach out to the trainers in the link I posted above? What you are describing is very similar to the puppy she fostered, and adopted. I really think Jamie can give you some insight into the behavior, the whys and the things you can start doing to set rules.


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## Strikker

MollyMarie,
You mentioned in your first post that you had signed up for 10 lessons with a GSD trainer. When will you and your puppy start? Can you contact your trainer for possible suggestions to work on prior to your first lesson? Maybe some short quick drills to help you gain control and alter your puppy's focus when needed?


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## Birbeck

Honestly...
I would suggest ensuring your confidence around the animal, moving confidently and not slowly as if you're intimidated in any way.
If he bites I would honestly suggest being very loud/obnoxious and repeat his name ONCE and swat the snout. Don't let him bully you and step on your feet, walk when and where you want to go, he can move out of your way.
Work on positive encouragement without objects or treats.
There are various E collars on the market that will completely discourage his attempts at the exact moment he begins to misbehave. Ranging from sound, static and vibration. To save the animal, it might be a worthy investment.


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## selzer

Birbeck said:


> Honestly...
> I would suggest ensuring your confidence around the animal, moving confidently and not slowly as if you're intimidated in any way.
> If he bites I would honestly suggest being very loud/obnoxious and repeat his name ONCE and swat the snout. Don't let him bully you and step on your feet, walk when and where you want to go, he can move out of your way.
> Work on positive encouragement without objects or treats.
> There are various E collars on the market that will completely discourage his attempts at the exact moment he begins to misbehave. Ranging from sound, static and vibration. To save the animal, it might be a worthy investment.


 
Please do not take this advice. Walking confidently is fine. Don't be intimidated by a puppy, good. 

But when you correct, DO NOT use his name. EH! NO! OUCH! -- your word for correction should be immediate. Don't say, SHILOH, NO! He should associate any use of his name as positive. All the time. 

When you are training, if you want him to move, "Shiloh, HEEL" Use the name. If you do not want him to change positions, do not use the name. Shiloh, SIT. Good he moves into the SIT position. STAY. Good, he knows he must stay, not moving. When you call him to you, "Shiloh," get's his attention, "COME!" Yes, he moves to you. Always when you use his name, it is a good thing. Always. 

The problem with hitting a German Shepherd to get them to mind, is that they can take much more pain than you will be willing to give. Some smacks and swats only encourage a dog to get more excited. However, some can encourage the dog to fight back because they will view you as a weak leader, unstable, and not trustworthy. To hit a little guy like this one will do more damage than good. 

If you must, grab the muzzle and Say, NO BITE, firmly and no nonsense. Don't smack the dog. You are trying to build a relationship with this dog. You can't do that with smacks or swats. 

Certainly go where you will, make him move out of your way. Don't step over the dog, tell him to move. Sure. 

Don't use an e-collar on a baby. Lots of people slap an e-collar on the dog, and the dog associates the correction with the object of his fear -- another dog or a stranger, and he escalates, because he feels the other attacked. Whether you are for e-collars or not, most will not use them on a pup younger than six months. And while they work, you still have to do the work, you still have to teach the dog what you want, and you still have to get the timing right for the correction. 

For a novice to put an e-collar on a four month old puppy, that is a recipe for disaster. For a strong pup with excellent character, it might be ok -- no lasting damage. For a dog described as fear-aggressive -- far more likely to have a soft temperament, and you can do serious damage.


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## cdwoodcox

I would really love to see a video. My 12 week old 28 lb puppy is absolutely bonkers sometimes. She'll bark, growl, nip pants, shorts, shoestrings, whatever she can get as you walk by. Occasionally she will creep from around the corner and try and charge and bite at people, or rosko. She has no problem sitting in front of me and bark her head off at me. If I kneel down she will try and bite and attack me. But it is all puppy play. She is learning that biting skin is a no no. I'll grab a rope and we'll play tug or wrestle and she's just a happy, confident puppy. New people are OK with her also. She'll treat them the same way. Bark attack creep on. But it's all puppy play. I could see how her actions could be mistaken for being aggressive. But 1 minute of playing with her and it's easy to see that it's just a puppy trying to play. Maybe I am misunderstanding something but I would love to see a video. If nothing else to help me understand.


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## Chip18

Oh for God's sake ... it's a "freakin puppy" not a dog as of yet. The "puppy" and where he came from are not the issue, in my view. The OP and there "expectations" of what they can "expect" from a "GSD" are. Had it been a Lab or a Golden and they did the "exact" same things they are currently doing?? Most likely ... they would not have had "issues??" But ... it is not, the first step in "rectifying issues" is to "out think your dog/puppy." 

Lose the "freaking treats" clearly they are not working, it's time for the OP to up there game and "out think" there "Dog/Puppy!" And that does not take "force or Conflict" but it does take a "Plan." 

Crate Train the "Puppy," train "The Place Command" and keep a Drag Leash on the Puppy. He should not be free to make "Poor Choices!" Stop trying to make him a people happy "Boxer." The puppy is "unpredictable" around people. Stop trying to "trick" people into his face with use of treats! Teach him to "ignore people" and call it a day, if he is around people he should be in "Place" and the "OP's" job "is to keep people out of his face!" Look but don't touch! See "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" in "New Dog a Challenge" and the link for training "The Place Command" in this thread.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And none of that requires "conflict" or "tools" with their "Puppy," it does "require" a rethink on how they "proceed" going forward. "Out Think your Dog/Puppy" as I am want to say. Changing "preconceived expectations" is the "first step" to getting "this" right. 

As always ... ask questions and Welcome Aboard.


----------



## MollyMarie

Chip18 said:


> Oh for God's sake ... it's a "freakin puppy" not a dog as of yet. The "puppy" and where he came from are not the issue, in my view. The OP and there "expectations" of what they can "expect" from a "GSD" are. Had it been a Lab or a Golden and they did the "exact" same things they are currently doing?? Most likely ... they would not have had "issues??" But ... it is not, the first step in "rectifying issues" is to "out think your dog/puppy."
> 
> Lose the "freaking treats" clearly they are not working, it's time for the OP to up there game and "out think" there "Dog/Puppy!" And that does not take "force or Conflict" but it does take a "Plan."
> 
> Crate Train the "Puppy," train "The Place Command" and keep a Drag Leash on the Puppy. He should not be free to make "Poor Choices!" Stop trying to make him a people happy "Boxer." The puppy is "unpredictable" around people. Stop trying to "trick" people into his face with use of treats! Teach him to "ignore people" and call it a day, if he is around people he should be in "Place" and the "OP's" job "is to keep people out of his face!" Look but don't touch! See "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" in "New Dog a Challenge" and the link for training "The Place Command" in this thread.:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html
> 
> And none of that requires "conflict" or "tools" with their "Puppy," it does "require" a rethink on how they "proceed" going forward. "Out Think your Dog/Puppy" as I am want to say. Changing "preconceived expectations" is the "first step" to getting "this" right.
> 
> As always ... ask questions and Welcome Aboard.


Thank you very much for the help and advice.


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## MollyMarie

cdwoodcox said:


> I would really love to see a video. My 12 week old 28 lb puppy is absolutely bonkers sometimes. She'll bark, growl, nip pants, shorts, shoestrings, whatever she can get as you walk by. Occasionally she will creep from around the corner and try and charge and bite at people, or rosko. She has no problem sitting in front of me and bark her head off at me. If I kneel down she will try and bite and attack me. But it is all puppy play. She is learning that biting skin is a no no. I'll grab a rope and we'll play tug or wrestle and she's just a happy, confident puppy. New people are OK with her also. She'll treat them the same way. Bark attack creep on. But it's all puppy play. I could see how her actions could be mistaken for being aggressive. But 1 minute of playing with her and it's easy to see that it's just a puppy trying to play. Maybe I am misunderstanding something but I would love to see a video. If nothing else to help me understand.


There is a huge difference in how he treats us - as opposed to other people. It is all puppy play with us - but he barks, rushes, and bites (or at least tries) other people. Although I'm not a GSD expert, I have raised many dogs and I know the difference. I wish it were just normal puppy play.


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## llombardo

MollyMarie said:


> There is a huge difference in how he treats us - as opposed to other people. It is all puppy play with us - but he barks, rushes, and bites (or at least tries) other people. Although I'm not a GSD expert, I have raised many dogs and I know the difference. I wish it were just normal puppy play.


The thing is they aren't like other breeds in that respect. They herd, they mouth, they are more likely to figure out that can get away with certain behaviors. 


My dog Midnite was brought to a high kill shelter at about the age of 6 months or so. They brought him there because they had two kids and one on the way, but they didn't trust him because he was nipping at the kids. The day I brought him home I had kids in the house, he never tried nipping, herding or mouthing, what he did do was follow them around everywhere they went. In fact kids are his all time favorite thing. I did find he was very leash reactive and at first one would think aggressive. I worked on that for several months straight and what a difference. If the people that gave him up could see himtoday they would kick themselves for giving him up. He is a perfect family dog.


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## Chip18

MollyMarie said:


> There is a huge difference in how he treats us - as opposed to other people. It is all puppy play with us - but he barks, rushes, and bites (or at least tries) other people. Although I'm not a GSD expert, I have raised many dogs and I know the difference. I wish it were just normal puppy play.


 Aw ... it is normal "puppy" behaviour for a GSD with not enough rules and to much liberty to "make poor choices." If you can/have trained other dogs ... then you can train this one also. 

What you are describing is a "Breed" characteristic, his pack is fine, "everybody else" not so much! Rest assured ...yor not the first person to be caught off guard by this???

I had lots of "Dog" experiance before I got my first WL GSD, Band Dawgs, APBT/Boxers and Boxers. I knew it all. So my first Over Size WL GSD was just a big furry puppy (7 months) with a pointy face. 

My other dogs "Luv'd" people and my "Boxer's" thought people were the most bestest things on the face of the earth! 

So imagine my surprise the first time we had company and my GSD greeted them with a cold hard stare and a low growl???? 

OK then ... step one ...."Place" it is step two, keep people out of his face. "Show him" how I expect him to behave.

The actual "process" for doing that is pretty simple, the hard part is for owners to make adjustments in there "expectations." 

The dog/puppy will need to be able to walk well on a "loose" leash and from that point, you go out there and find people for him to "ignore."

It's "buried" in my thread but I'll break it out for you here:

Second link here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

That's what I did with all my dogs "anyway" just with the others, if asked to pet I'd "always say "Please Do!" The only change needed with my "GSD was saying "NO, he's in training" and he was in training ... "he was learning not to be biting the crap out of people and stuff." My GSD's job was to stand "calmly" by me, he had no requirement to interact with "anyone" ... worked out fine. 

And ... train "Place" and you have an alternative to "Crating" him up all day?? Enforce the "No" with a "consequence" use the "Pet Convincer" if he still won't listen and then guide him back to "Place." 

"No" when properly trained ... is an actually command, for met it meant "Stop Whatever" it is your doing and don't do it again." 

I used "No" so much with my "Boxer" that I was concerned she would think "No" was her name?? She would stop doing "that" and find something else she should not be doing. :crazy:

But it worked out fine in the long run. But prior work is required, for "No" to be effective and without a "consequence" which can be as simple as a verbal marker. No means nothing.

But if a "dog believes your serious" and with proper timing ... before a dog goes over the top ..."No" can put a "damper" on a lot of the crazy. 


Heck you can do both while "training" "Place" if he starts to move off of "Place" say "NO" and use the drag leash to guide him back. 
Repeat as needed, it's not hard just takes time.


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## MollyMarie

Chip18 said:


> Aw ... it is normal "puppy" behaviour for a GSD with not enough rules and to much liberty to "make poor choices." If you can/have trained other dogs ... then you can train this one also.
> 
> What you are describing is a "Breed" characteristic, his pack is fine, "everybody else" not so much! Rest assured ...yor not the first person to be caught off guard by this???
> 
> I had lots of "Dog" experiance before I got my first WL GSD, Band Dawgs, APBT/Boxers and Boxers. I knew it all. So my first Over Size WL GSD was just a big furry puppy (7 months) with a pointy face.
> 
> My other dogs "Luv'd" people and my "Boxer's" thought people were the most bestest things on the face of the earth!
> 
> So imagine my surprise the first time we had company and my GSD greeted them with a cold hard stare and a low growl????
> 
> OK then ... step one ...."Place" it is step two, keep people out of his face. "Show him" how I expect him to behave.
> 
> The actual "process" for doing that is pretty simple, the hard part is for owners to make adjustments in there "expectations."
> 
> The dog/puppy will need to be able to walk well on a "loose" leash and from that point, you go out there and find people for him to "ignore."
> 
> It's "buried" in my thread but I'll break it out for you here:
> 
> Second link here:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
> 
> That's what I did with all my dogs "anyway" just with the others, if asked to pet I'd "always say "Please Do!" The only change needed with my "GSD was saying "NO, he's in training" and he was in training ... "he was learning not to be biting the crap out of people and stuff." My GSD's job was to stand "calmly" by me, he had no requirement to interact with "anyone" ... worked out fine.
> 
> And ... train "Place" and you have an alternative to "Crating" him up all day?? Enforce the "No" with a "consequence" use the "Pet Convincer" if he still won't listen and then guide him back to "Place."
> 
> "No" when properly trained ... is an actually command, for met it meant "Stop Whatever" it is your doing and don't do it again."
> 
> I used "No" so much with my "Boxer" that I was concerned she would think "No" was her name?? She would stop doing "that" and find something else she should not be doing. :crazy:
> 
> But it worked out fine in the long run. But prior work is required, for "No" to be effective and without a "consequence" which can be as simple as a verbal marker. No means nothing.
> 
> But if a "dog believes your serious" and with proper timing ... before a dog goes over the top ..."No" can put a "damper" on a lot of the crazy.
> 
> 
> Heck you can do both while "training" "Place" if he starts to move off of "Place" say "NO" and use the drag leash to guide him back.
> Repeat as needed, it's not hard just takes time.


Chip, thank you for these tips - they are perfect for what we are currently doing. I truly appreciate your effort in trying to help us.


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## MollyMarie

*Great news!!!*

I would like to thank all of the wonderful people on this forum that have given me so much advice and encouragement. The private messages that I’ve received were particularly helpful and encouraging. I will forever be grateful for everyone’s kindness. That said, I *finally* have some positive news to share… J

As it turns out, I think we jumped the gun a bit. I still believe that our puppy has fear issues– and he will always need to be closely monitored and managed, never off leash or drag line, and extensively trained – but I don’t think it is nearly as bad as we had originally thought. We didn’t have the experience or knowledge to understand what was going on with him. The main problem lied with us – his owners. When our puppy started acting up – we unintentionally allowed it. We didn’t feel confident – so he didn’t feel confident. We were scared - so he was scared. Now that we are using the tools taught to us – he is doing exponentially better. J

I want to thank the poster who recommended the amazing German Shepherd trainer in Washington. During our nearly three-hour visit, he put our puppy through various exercises to encourage him to show aggression (so he could see what our puppy was capable of) – yet our puppy never barked, lunged, or growled at him. We were extremely relieved. I would highly recommend this trainer to anyone that needs to work on aggression or behavioral issues. He is a genius! He was also very patient (with us) and didn't mind answering any and all questions which was terrific. Please PM me if you would like more information. 

Yesterday we went to a traveling vet for our puppy’s immunizations. We were extremely worried how he would react around adults (we knew he would be fine with children and dogs, which he was). My daughter put him in a “down” position and he stayed in that position while at least fifty adults walked right by him. He never once growled, barked, or lunged at anyone. It was interesting to watch all of the puppies flailing around, barking at other dogs, biting their owner’s feet, trying to pull away from their owners – while our little boy lied there contently. We were so proud of him. After an almost two-hour wait, it was finally his turn for his immunizations. He let the vet (and her assistant) pet him and he took treats from them as well. He did great! J The vet said she thought that he was a very good dog and that she didn’t see any signs of aggression. That was very good news. J She also recommended he see a veterinary behaviorist – to rule out any illnesses/issues, as he had a very rocky start.

There have been a few other positive encounters we’ve had over the last three days – but I won’t bore you with the details. I just wanted to share the good news and to thank everyone for their help and support. J


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## Nigel

This is good news! Good to hear with some changes you can make this work. You were recommended 2 trainers in Washington, Les Flores and Jim Elder, which one? I've gotten some help from Les, super helpful guy.


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## gsdsar

This is wonderful news!! I am glad that you guys are committed to working with him and have found a good person to do so.


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## MollyMarie

Nigel said:


> This is good news! Good to hear with some changes you can make this work. You were recommended 2 trainers in Washington, Les Flores and Jim Elder, which one? I've gotten some help from Les, super helpful guy.


I am sure Les Flores is fantastic, and we planned to contact him if Jim Elder didn't work out - but Jim Elder was AMAZING!!! He is truly, truly an amazing trainer. We went to him completely scared and overwhelmed and he completely turned things around. I am so grateful to him. Not only did he go above and beyond with training - he called us the next morning to check on our puppy. Jim Elder is awesome.


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## MollyMarie

gsdsar said:


> This is wonderful news!! I am glad that you guys are committed to working with him and have found a good person to do so.


Thank you so much!!!  Yes, we have an excellent trainer (locally) who we are going to take private and eventually group lessons from - as well as seeing Jim Elder (hopefully) once a month to continue with training. That, combined with working with a veterinary behaviorist should keep us very busy. Who knew the sickly little fuzz ball that came into our lives would cause so much commotion. For the most part, in the best way possible.


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## llombardo

I'm glad that you guys gave both yourselves and the puppy a chance. He is a puppy and there will be things along the way that he will act differently with. You will work through it and if your lost you have a good trainer to contact. I do not believe this pup even has any fear issues. I think everything is going to be ok:grin2:


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## Moriah

MollyMarie said:


> I am sure Les Flores is fantastic, and we planned to contact him if Jim Elder didn't work out - but Jim Elder was AMAZING!!! He is truly, truly an amazing trainer. We went to him completely scared and overwhelmed and he completely turned things around. I am so grateful to him. Not only did he go above and beyond with training - he called us the next morning to check on our puppy. Jim Elder is awesome.


Jim is an expert in aggression and has years of experience as a helper in Schutzhund. So glad you are getting help for your family and your puppy. I have worked with Jim and knew he would not let you down  The future now looks bright!


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## Chip18

LOL ... sooo "Down" as opposed to "Sit." KISS in action. I'm impressed! 

Don't be so quick to pre declare what he can't do or accomplish it sounds like your in good hands ... "Out think your dog and work with the dog in front of you" that's what you've done so ... job well done.


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## Dotbat215

So glad for you! When our pup was bitten by another dog and became very dog aggressive, we felt so overwhelmed. Getting a trainer was the best thing we could have done. 

It's so rewarding to help your dog become the best dog he can be. ?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Getting a trainer experienced with the breed is one of the best things you could have done. Glad things are working out for you.


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## MollyMarie

llombardo said:


> I'm glad that you guys gave both yourselves and the puppy a chance. He is a puppy and there will be things along the way that he will act differently with. You will work through it and if your lost you have a good trainer to contact. I do not believe this pup even has any fear issues. I think everything is going to be ok:grin2:


Thank you so much for your help and pointing me in the right direction.  Yes, I have to believe we have a long road ahead, but having the tools (and an awesome trainer) is going to make it easier. 

You don't feel our puppy has fear issues? I would love that to be the case. May I ask you why you think that?


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## MollyMarie

Moriah said:


> Jim is an expert in aggression and has years of experience as a helper in Schutzhund. So glad you are getting help for your family and your puppy. I have worked with Jim and knew he would not let you down  The future now looks bright!


Oops. I think you (Moriah) was actually the one who pointed me in the right direction. So, thank you.  Jim definitely did not let me down. He is amazing.


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## MollyMarie

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... sooo "Down" as opposed to "Sit." KISS in action. I'm impressed!
> 
> Don't be so quick to pre declare what he can't do or accomplish it sounds like your in good hands ... "Out think your dog and work with the dog in front of you" that's what you've done so ... job well done.


Good! I am glad we finally impressed someone. We went from lost to sort of getting it. That feels great.  Thank you for your help and kind words.


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## MollyMarie

Dotbat215 said:


> So glad for you! When our pup was bitten by another dog and became very dog aggressive, we felt so overwhelmed. Getting a trainer was the best thing we could have done.
> 
> It's so rewarding to help your dog become the best dog he can be. ?


I completely know that overwhelmed feeling. I honestly didn't think we could do it - but after working with him virtually ONE day - he seemed to catch on and that gave us so much hope. He is honestly a great little boy.  I agree, it is very rewarding.


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## llombardo

MollyMarie said:


> Thank you so much for your help and pointing me in the right direction.  Yes, I have to believe we have a long road ahead, but having the tools (and an awesome trainer) is going to make it easier.
> 
> You don't feel our puppy has fear issues? I would love that to be the case. May I ask you why you think that?


Some people believe and some don't that they go through fear periods. Things they weren't afraid have become things they are, but how you handle it will determine the outcome. You have a pup that stayed in a down position with no reaction--that is fantastic. You keep your confidence level up and you will see his confidence too. Do you ever play tug with him? Tug is a good way to build that. You play with him and let him win, he will prance away with his head up high because he won and you tell him you won.


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## Chip18

Hm, well if we're "moving on??" I'll pick up here, pretty sure "the Fear Period" is an actual thing?? If people get it "right" by and large they won't notice it?? I never did with any of my puppies.

Getting thru it depends on luck and choices and the ultimate outcome, if bad things happens depends on the "puppy" a sound "puppy" can shake stuff off ..."no big deal here." And the owners has to do nothing.

But by and large and "in my view" success depends on owners making "Good Choices" for there puppies. And the two areas that get most new owners into trouble are "People" and other "Dogs." 

I prefer "Exposure" over "Socialization" my puppies go everywhere and they "see" people but they don't necessarily "meet" them. Once I have a "baseline" for "that" puppy. Then that puppy may or may not get more "exposure" to people. If they tend to shy away ... I keep people out of that "puppies" face. Never had to actually do that with a puppy I've owned (say NO) but I would. If they like people ... then they are free to meet and greet "Everybody" a Sit or Down first, the puppy being "calm" is good advise however. I kinda messed up on that one ...

The other dog thing ... barring flat bad luck (a rogue dog attack) on one's puppy. For "me" that one is easy to avoid, I don't put my puppies in harms way. I don't put my puppies in "situations" where I have to depend on the "Skill" of other dog owners to control there cur. 

There are also "Environmental" issues some we can control, and some we can't ... sometimes "crap" happens. Bt with an "intelligent" approach dogs can "get over it." 

In anycase ... "Michael Ellis" has a three part series on "Fear period in young dogs" I do believe that is where he made an interesting observation on the use of "treats with strangers."


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## Stonevintage

Wow! You are awesome! I can't think of a better owner for this pup than you! This is fantastic news - you aren't bailing and YOU are special.:

Doesn't matter with dogs, if this dog wants you - and you meet him halfway, to try - this is the purest reason we're all here on this big blue planet. Thank you for giving it an "all in" try - you rock! dog mommy


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## Chip18

MollyMarie said:


> Good! I am glad we finally impressed someone. We went from lost to sort of getting it. That feels great.  Thank you for your help and kind words.


LOL ... well it was a very "impressive" effort to find help on your part!!

I only saw the "rehome thread" the other day??? And 9 times out of 10, I urge a "rethink" but I never got to it! Then this thread and yet another thread with different "issues??" A "Shot Gun" approach as it were ... quite imaginative and impressive!

That is "out thinking your dog/puppy on a grand scale!! 

At any rate it sounds like your doing much much better! I am curious however as to if he is still doing the "belly flop" over the Crate thing?? I think that was you???


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> The other dog thing ... barring flat bad luck (a rogue dog attack) on one's puppy. For "me" that one is easy to avoid, I don't put my puppies in harms way. I don't put my puppies in "situations" where I have to depend on the "Skill" of other dog owners to control there cur.


Cur: a dog that is a mix of different breeds : a low, bad, or disliked dog

Are you saying that a) you only keep your dog away from mixed breeds or b)that you also include purebreds and categorize them under "low, bad, or disliked"?

Just not sure what you are saying there.

Oh, and good video by Michael Ellis. :thumbup:


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## gsdluvr

A story with a happy ending!! Refreshing! 

So is there no such thing as genetic behavioral problems? Can they all be worked out?


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Cur: a dog that is a mix of different breeds : a low, bad, or disliked dog
> 
> Are you saying that a) you only keep your dog away from mixed breeds or b)that you also include purebreds and categorize them under "low, bad, or disliked"?
> 
> Just not sure what you are saying there.
> 
> Oh, and good video by Michael Ellis. :thumbup:


 I'm pretty sure "most" understand my meaning??

But heck I'll play. For "Me" a "Cur" is "Any Dog" regardless of "Breed" that comes after mine! 

*I don't know you, I don't know your Dog ...keep your distance! And I'll do the same"* ... Is how "we" roll! 

Distance = Time and Time = Countermeasures, avoidance and awareness being the simplest of all. I "don't" trade, Time or Distance lightly.

None of my dogs or dogs under my care have "ever" been attacked by unknow dogs, charged yes ... especially Rocky??? But they have never had an unknown dog lay a tooth on them!

I'm not out there to win "Heart and minds," my "job" is to protect my dogs and that's how "I" do it. I have "Zero" interest in ever having to fix behavioral issues, caused by someone else's untrained "Cur!" And "Zero" interest in *"I thought my Dog was friendly, street encounters."* And yeah "No Dog Parks" for "us." My "Job" is to keep my dogs "safe" and I take "ZERO" risk with unknown dogs regardless of "Breed." As I am want to say ...











Others are of course ... free to do as they see fit.


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## MineAreWorkingline

It can be very offensive and in bad taste to insinuate that somebody else's purebred dog is a "cur" as defined by the dictionary, or worse if using the slang definition which is a derogatory term applied to a dog that refuses to fight to the death, because of the actions of the owner.


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## Chip18

gsdluvr said:


> A story with a happy ending!! Refreshing!
> 
> So is there no such thing as genetic behavioral problems? Can they all be worked out?


 I believe there is plenty of evidence to support "genetic behavioral issues" I mean to start you have "genetic characteristics" so there is that.

And "Can they all be worked out??" Is a broad term "success" would depend on the dog, what you do and how you work with.

Lot's of "Well I can't do it ... so it can't be fixed "Trainers" out there.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It can be very offensive and in bad taste to insinuate that somebody else's purebred dog is a "cur" as defined by the dictionary, or worse if using the slang definition which is a derogatory term applied to a dog that refuses to fight to the death, because of the actions of the owner.


Oh .... I suppose so?? I would not know?? As I tend to be "apparently" a master of "nonverbal" communication hm ... also. 

I don't address "bad owners" *I avoid them!* I'm pretty consistant, if I were to actually "address" said owner??? I would be trading away "time" and "distance" to engage in a situation that I wish to avoid??

That is not going to happen! If I see a "potential situation" unfolding. We are gone! There is "nothing to be said, we cross the street, step well aside or change direction. I want that dog and that owner out of my space and I will do "nothing" that will delay that process. 

Done it hundreds of times over the years ... "I've never said a word. So ... if said "bad dog" owner has a Cur??? They did not "hear it" from me.


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## islanddog

MollyMarie said:


> There have been a few other positive encounters we’ve had over the last three days – but I won’t bore you with the details. I just wanted to share the good news and to thank everyone for their help and support. J


Oh, please do_ bore us with the details_...that's what we are here for.
Honestly, I LOVE reading threads like this, I love to hear about the 'turn arounds' and the 'things that work out', and much to learn.
Kudo's and congrats for looking for info, and acting on it, and working things through, great job.:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Oh .... I suppose so?? I would not know?? As I tend to be "apparently" a master of "nonverbal" communication hm ... also.
> 
> I don't address "bad owners" *I avoid them!* I'm pretty consistant, if I were to actually "address" said owner??? I would be trading away "time" and "distance" to engage in a situation that I wish to avoid??
> 
> That is not going to happen! If I see a "potential situation" unfolding. We are gone! There is "nothing to be said, we cross the street, step well aside or change direction. I want that dog and that owner out of my space and I will do "nothing" that will delay that process.
> 
> Done it hundreds of times over the years ... "I've never said a word. So ... if said "bad dog" owner has a Cur??? They did not "hear it" from me.


I wasn't addressing your methods of handling your dog, just the use of your word "cur", not very nice.


----------



## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I wasn't addressing your methods of handling your dog, just the use of your word "cur", not very nice.


See I read a lot of literature, and occasionally the term "cur" comes up. I believe it was in Ole Yeller. Though, I can't be 100%. It just seemed to be a term for a dog that the author formed in his character's head for a non-descript dog, non-descript maybe because the character is not really all that interested in the dog, and it really doesn't hold that large a place in the story -- "There was a couple of skinny cur-dogs slinking away into the dusk." I figure they are just like what an areas local stray population would become after breeding indiscriminately. 

I think there are some breeds that incorporate it into their name, 

Black Mouth Cur
Blue Lacy
Cajun Cur
Camus Cur (picture needed)
Canadian Cur
Catahoula Cur
Feist
Florida/Cracker Cur
Foundation Stock Mountain Cur 
Henderson Cur (picture needed)
Kemmer stock Mountain Cur
Kemmer Stock Hybrid Squirrel Dog
Leopard Cur
Mountain Cur
Mountain View Cur
Original Mountain Cur
Parnell's Carolina Cur
Plott Cur
Southern Blackmouth Cur
Stephens Stock Cur
Treeing Tennessee Brindle
Texas Cur (picture needed)
Treeing Cur
Western Mountain Cur

Hunting Dogs
Cur Dogs
Feist Types
Game Dogs
Squirrel Dogs
Kemmer Stock Mountain Curs
 I think the English had a cur that was a cattle driving dog, but it seems more a southern US term for the most part now. 

I kind of have it on the level of mongrel, mutt, or dog. 

I never thought it had negative connotations. 

Now if someone calls you a whelp or a puppy, that isn't a complement. And if they call you a dog, most ladies would take more offense than if they were called a bitch.


----------



## MollyMarie

llombardo said:


> Some people believe and some don't that they go through fear periods. Things they weren't afraid have become things they are, but how you handle it will determine the outcome. You have a pup that stayed in a down position with no reaction--that is fantastic. You keep your confidence level up and you will see his confidence too. Do you ever play tug with him? Tug is a good way to build that. You play with him and let him win, he will prance away with his head up high because he won and you tell him you won.


Interesting... I hope this is just a phase that will pass. I also believe that he is feeling our new-found confidence - which makes him feel more secure. Who knows. It's a one-day-at-a-time kind of thing. We're learning as we go...

We no longer play tug of war with him because our trainer told us not to. We play other games though. Believe it or not (this will sound crazy), but when we're playing games and we all laugh (at how cute he is) - he LOVES that. He's something else...


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> See I read a lot of literature, and occasionally the term "cur" comes up. I believe it was in Ole Yeller. Though, I can't be 100%. It just seemed to be a term for a dog that the author formed in his character's head for a non-descript dog, non-descript maybe because the character is not really all that interested in the dog, and it really doesn't hold that large a place in the story -- "There was a couple of skinny cur-dogs slinking away into the dusk." I figure they are just like what an areas local stray population would become after breeding indiscriminately.
> 
> I think there are some breeds that incorporate it into their name,
> 
> Black Mouth Cur
> Blue Lacy
> Cajun Cur
> Camus Cur (picture needed)
> Canadian Cur
> Catahoula Cur
> Feist
> Florida/Cracker Cur
> Foundation Stock Mountain Cur
> Henderson Cur (picture needed)
> Kemmer stock Mountain Cur
> Kemmer Stock Hybrid Squirrel Dog
> Leopard Cur
> Mountain Cur
> Mountain View Cur
> Original Mountain Cur
> Parnell's Carolina Cur
> Plott Cur
> Southern Blackmouth Cur
> Stephens Stock Cur
> Treeing Tennessee Brindle
> Texas Cur (picture needed)
> Treeing Cur
> Western Mountain Cur
> 
> Hunting Dogs
> Cur Dogs
> Feist Types
> Game Dogs
> Squirrel Dogs
> Kemmer Stock Mountain Curs
> I think the English had a cur that was a cattle driving dog, but it seems more a southern US term for the most part now.
> 
> I kind of have it on the level of mongrel, mutt, or dog.
> 
> I never thought it had negative connotations.
> 
> Now if someone calls you a whelp or a puppy, that isn't a complement. And if they call you a dog, most ladies would take more offense than if they were called a bitch.


Yes, mixed breeds of the locals, mongrels, there is nothing wrong with that connotation unless applied to purebred dogs as it would then appear to be intended as an insult. That or it would mean he would either be referring to other peoples' dogs, mixed or not, as bad or lowly dogs, once again an insult. And in a worst case scenario, dog fighters use the term "cur" as a derogatory term to describe a dog that won't fight to kill its opponent, once again, an insult.

If the term is used to describe the mere sight of somebody else's dog, I find it very insulting regardless of breed, or breeding, due to the many negative connotations.

There is a word that as a child I was told not to use it. I looked it up in the dictionary and it said: a dirty person. What could be so wrong with that? Well the word was used inappropriately and in a derogative manner to describe some people. Many found it offensive and to this day the word is not appropriate to use. If you look it up in the dictionary today, you won't even find the original meaning, only the negative definition. Although we are discussing dogs and not people, just like that word as a child, I still find the negative connotations attached to this word too as inappropriate, especially in the manner that it is used, and I find it offensive, especially on a dog forum.

Cur 

1. (Noun) - Derogatory term for a dog of any breed that displays cowardice or lacks fighting spirit. 
2. (Noun) - Derogatory term, usually used by owners or supporters of American Pit Bull Terrier dogs, to refer to any dog breed other than the American Pit Bull Terrier. 

"If that cur of yours bites me, I'll have my Pit Bull tear him up!" 

Cur 

1: a half breed or mongrel dog. 

2: any dog that will not defend it's self. 

Cur 

1. A random-bred or mixed-breed dog. Usually used in a derogatory way.

cur 

A mean-spirited mangy mutt dog of no pedigree. 

Careful you don't get bit by that cur! You'll need shots for rabies, mange, syphilis, rubella and tb. 

cur 

1. Short-speak for 'coward'

I think most women would rather be called a dog or a bitch rather than the c word and I don't mean cur although they are both intended to invoke the same negative feelings.


----------



## gsdsar

MOD HAT: 

Stop the bickering.


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## selzer

gsdsar said:


> MOD HAT:
> 
> Stop the bickering.


Ok. I didn't take it as such. I thought we were discussing a term. I call my purebred German Shepherd dogs, mangy muttkins. Didn't know the word evoked such emotion. :|


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sue and I weren't bickering although others were insulting other peoples' dogs.


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## gsdsar

I didn't either. But appearantly it does. I call lots of dogs mutts, mangy mutts, I'll behaved rapscallions, jerks, mongrels. Sorry. Heck I call my own dogs monsters. If your calling it in your head, then who is the wiser. And why get all bent out of shape. 

The word cur is not worth an Internet fight.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I agree, call it in your head. If it was a once time incident it would be easy to let go and was in the past, but it is becoming a habit which was the reason for the call out.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> Ok. I didn't take it as such. I thought we were discussing a term. I call my purebred German Shepherd dogs, mangy muttkins. Didn't know the word evoked such emotion. :|


LOL ...nor did I??? Kinda ironic for a term I have "never voiced!!!" But being from the South ... it is a term I grew up with. 

But apparently "my" method works. Thus far ... my record is unbroken. I don't insistent on maintaining my chosen course of direction regardless of "obstacles."

If I see another "Dog" coming my way ... on the street ... I am freaking gone! No dog "on the street" gets close enough to mine to strike them. And I need nor have ever said a word! That takes "Time."

You can just color me and mine ... "Gone???" Pretty much that simple. Apparently "non verbal communication" is not that common in Dog Training ... I do it all the time.


----------



## Chip18

MollyMarie said:


> Interesting... I hope this is just a phase that will pass. I also believe that he is feeling our new-found confidence - which makes him feel more secure. Who knows. It's a one-day-at-a-time kind of thing. We're learning as we go...
> 
> We no longer play tug of war with him because our trainer told us not to. We play other games though. Believe it or not (this will sound crazy), but when we're playing games and we all laugh (at how cute he is) - he LOVES that. He's something else...


Structure Rules and Limitations are how you help a dog feel secure. 

"The Power of Tug" DVD's notwithstanding?? But if your trainer told you "NO??" Then go with that, I'd assume he saw something we can not.


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## lhczth

*The discussion about the word "Cur" will end NOW. Anyone who posts after this post will receive a suspension. People have become far far too sensitive and don't seem to be able to have a disagreement without it turning into a childish, YES CHILDISH, fight. All of we Mods and ADMIN are getting very tired of dealing with it.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## selzer

MollyMarie said:


> Interesting... I hope this is just a phase that will pass. I also believe that he is feeling our new-found confidence - which makes him feel more secure. Who knows. It's a one-day-at-a-time kind of thing. We're learning as we go...
> 
> We no longer play tug of war with him because our trainer told us not to. We play other games though. Believe it or not (this will sound crazy), but when we're playing games and we all laugh (at how cute he is) - he LOVES that. He's something else...


It is not a phase that will pass. You are past that -- not age, but for those phases to just pass, your initial response to your dog's behavior is largely a determining factor. 

But now you have good advice which you are incorporating with your dog -- this is behavior modification, doggy style. Your phase isn't just going to pass, your dog is becoming rehabilitated. He got into some bad habits due to lack of security/trust. You are changing your behavior toward the dog, and the dog is becoming more confident in you to protect him, and more confident in you as a leader, and more confident in himself in the role he can now be comfortable in. 

As you continue to train, work, move in the new direction, your dog will continue to improve. 

As you work with the local person, if something is questionable, doesn't seem right, gets beneath your skin and doesn't go away, call the man who you have good confidence in and run it by him. It won't mean that you need give up on the local guy -- lots of work can be done, but it may become necessary to stand your ground and say something like, "I am not comfortable doing that, let's try something else." I am just throwing that out there, nothing makes me nervous about the trainer, it just seems that because there really aren't any requirements to be a trainer, you always have to be on the lookout for trainers who aren't very experienced, or aren't experienced with your breed. 

Good luck, and yes, share your stories here. We love successes, but we are also pretty good at commiserating when there are speed bumps on that road -- it is a journey, and the joy of it is in the journey, not the destination. Also, you learn the most from the dogs that challenge you, not the perfect dogs that never turn a strand of hair gray.


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## Stonevintage

OP. I just wanted to share that it's easy to go the wrong path with a pup and they end up with a "decidedly different" behavior than what you were going for. I've had several "do over's" with my latest GSD.

These pups are fairly resilient and forgiving. Don't let yourself get discouraged if you need a few "start from scratch" as recommended by your qualified trainer. It's ok and it's amazing what experienced people can point out to help you. What you are wanting and what the pup is thinking sometimes go in different directions.

What I have found, with most problems - the sooner you address the issue the less time it takes to "retrain" a new behavior but - If you are consistent and stick to the training - you see small strides every day and it really is amazing when a good habit suddenly "clicks" and locks in with your pup. Age and maturity are also going to be your allies in the near future. :smile2:


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## selzer

I wasn't implying that you ruined your dog. No. We ALL have worked a dog contrary to what was right for them at one point or another. And yes, pups are resilient, some more so. 

What I am suggesting is that hoping for a phase to pass isn't as good as decisively changing how you are managing the dog. Yes, the dog will mature and behavior will change, some of the puppy insanity will mellow, and as the years go by, as you grown closer together, things do get better. But recognizing a need and addressing it, and seeing improvement is so far beyond growing out of a phase -- just no comparison. 

Dogs like consistency, good leadership, good management, good nutrition, and good exercise. If you employ those with liberal amounts of patience, in another 9 years, yours will be the best on the block. 

Welcome to the joy and pain of owning the greatest dog on the planet.


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## Axle12J

Hello MollyMarie. Been reading through the discussion so far, and something that constantly sounds in my head, about the pup biting your dad and "lunging at you", is that perhaps he simply wasnt introduced in the proper fashion to your dad, under the pretext that "everything is under your safeguard/control". I feel if you can teach the pup to depend on YOU to be the primary responder to situations, to recognize you as the ultimate decider of what happens/does not happen, things can turn out to be very simple.

Perhaps, if you managed to introduce your pup to strangers in a way that allows your pup to set potential "fears" to rest, you will see these problems come to and end.

When I first got my pup Axle, we brought him home and he followed me everywhere. The first while he was very very weary of everyone but me, and even shook slightly uncontrollably with fear when he saw my dad in the foggy distance, washing the car. Things could have gone downhill from there, but they didn't. Continual positive experiences with people. controlled by the alpha (me) has allowed him to habitually decide that people are no threat, unless I say so. 

I hope what I am saying is understandable to you. I personally feel that you should definitely not put this pup down, judging from all I've read so far at least. I feel like nothing that has happened is beyond the control of a dedicated Alpha/owner. I feel like molding his sense of weariness into "skepticism", and cutting it short before it would manifest into anxiety, could actually end up making an excellent guard dog out of him, with the tone of how gentle and passive you want him to be left at your discretion. His level of "trust" and "acceptance" of people can gradually and comfortably follow later, with consistency and a keen sense of controlled experience.


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## MollyMarie

selzer said:


> It is not a phase that will pass. You are past that -- not age, but for those phases to just pass, your initial response to your dog's behavior is largely a determining factor.
> 
> But now you have good advice which you are incorporating with your dog -- this is behavior modification, doggy style. Your phase isn't just going to pass, your dog is becoming rehabilitated. He got into some bad habits due to lack of security/trust. You are changing your behavior toward the dog, and the dog is becoming more confident in you to protect him, and more confident in you as a leader, and more confident in himself in the role he can now be comfortable in.
> 
> As you continue to train, work, move in the new direction, your dog will continue to improve.
> 
> As you work with the local person, if something is questionable, doesn't seem right, gets beneath your skin and doesn't go away, call the man who you have good confidence in and run it by him. It won't mean that you need give up on the local guy -- lots of work can be done, but it may become necessary to stand your ground and say something like, "I am not comfortable doing that, let's try something else." I am just throwing that out there, nothing makes me nervous about the trainer, it just seems that because there really aren't any requirements to be a trainer, you always have to be on the lookout for trainers who aren't very experienced, or aren't experienced with your breed.
> 
> Good luck, and yes, share your stories here. We love successes, but we are also pretty good at commiserating when there are speed bumps on that road -- it is a journey, and the joy of it is in the journey, not the destination. Also, you learn the most from the dogs that challenge you, not the perfect dogs that never turn a strand of hair gray.


I've actually read that puppies normally go through two "fear stages" before they are two. That said, our initial response did not help and now we have a lot of work ahead of us.


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## Galathiel

I think it should probably read "may" go through fear stages. Mine didn't go through a fear stage, nor do I remember my others going through them either.

Good luck with your pup and don't give up!


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## MollyMarie

*Another Good Day!!!*

Another good day with out pup. 

Spent the day with my mother with zero issues (he had barked and ran at her a few weeks back). Went to Petco and he saw lots of adults and never barked or lunged. He was given a cookie from a staff member and he ate it in the store. He had a fantastic day.


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## Chip18

MollyMarie said:


> Another good day with out pup.
> 
> Spent the day with my mother with zero issues (he had barked and ran at her a few weeks back). Went to Petco and he saw lots of adults and never barked or lunged. He was given a cookie from a staff member and he ate it in the store. He had a fantastic day.


 I have to issue a "Pet Co warning on account of that's what I do. 

Just stay "head up's" when you take your doggy in there. The worst of both dogs and owners can be found there and they can come out of "nowhere" ... off peak hours are best.

That said ... that is* "Fantastic" *news! A dog under stress won't take treats! Quite a change since your first post/threads! Great work you two!


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## MollyMarie

Chip18 said:


> I have to issue a "Pet Co warning on account of that's what I do.
> 
> Just stay "head up's" when you take your doggy in there. The worst of both dogs and owners can be found there and they can come out of "nowhere" ... off peak hours are best.
> 
> That said ... that is* "Fantastic" *news! A dog under stress won't take treats! Quite a change since your first post/threads! Great work you two!


I always love and appreciate your advice. 

Believe me, we were OVERLY cautious. We checked out the parking lot (very few cars) and three of us went in. We all had our jobs to make sure the front and back were clear. We didn't want any surprises. We encountered several people and told them we were working on fear issues and they allowed us to calmly walk by them. 

I was thrilled he took a cookie and ate it right then and there. I knew if he was overly afraid, he would not have done that. He passed the test!


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## belladonnalily

How old are your daughters? One thing regarding management to be considered: are you prepared to safely keep this dog away from your daughters friends forever? Because if all is how you say, he will always be a huge liability. Kids make mistakes and having him bite one of your children's friends is not a small thing. 

I think you have received good advice. Mine would be to rehome with someone more experienced. My 16 wk old pup has a bit of a temper. He is opposite of your pup...no fear of anything. He is already trying to figure out who he can mow over. If I had ANY fear of him, I'd wind up with a huge problem. I got him to be a more serious working dog so I was prepared. But I can't imagine a pet home with kids trying to raise him.

Life is too short to try to make things work when so much is at stake. Good luck to you!


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## selzer

Do we know if this pup is a working line dog or an American showline or a German show line dog, or a pet line dog?

It matters. Because you guys make out these serious working line puppies as being a whole lot more difficult to manage than show line dogs of either country. A little fearfulness in a puppy does not generally translate into a fear-biter. There are leaps and bounds between the two. And if having children running and screaming around the dog is normal, there is no reason the dog will wake up one day and go postal.

And, when behavior modification by the owner causes a noticeable improvement in the dog, the problem may not have lied in the dog at all, certainly not such genetic deficient nerves that causes a seriously dangerous animal. And then we have someone giving up on a dog that can actually help them and their family be better owners/trainers.


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## LuvShepherds

I also caution against Petco, but if it works for your dog, good! I'm encouraged at the positive times you are having with your dog. It was owner handling that caused the behaviors and owner handling that is fixing them. 

Selzer, all this talk about lines takes some responsibility away from owners. If it's a WL, then you have a more difficult dog, etc. Dogs can't be stubborn. There are a lot of beliefs about behaviors that might not mean anything at all. Our previous trainer who helped us with an aggressive rescue said he couldn't care less what breed a dog is, dog behavior is somewhat universal. He has trained thousands of dogs and he stakes his career on his own experiences, that dogs understand things from a dog perspective and that you can use the same techniques on any breed and they will work. He uses different skills depending on the size of the dog and its ability to learn, but otherwise, his philosophy covers any breed. I tend to agree with him after fostering dogs, not all GSDs. My most difficult and possibly smartest and highest drive German Shepherd was a WGSL. My most stubborn and most attentive dog has been a WL with Czech roots. But the techniques I used on those dogs and the fosters were just about the same.


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> I also caution against Petco, but if it works for your dog, good! I'm encouraged at the positive times you are having with your dog. It was owner handling that caused the behaviors and owner handling that is fixing them.
> 
> Selzer, all this talk about lines takes some responsibility away from owners. If it's a WL, then you have a more difficult dog, etc. Dogs can't be stubborn. There are a lot of beliefs about behaviors that might not mean anything at all. Our previous trainer who helped us with an aggressive rescue said he couldn't care less what breed a dog is, dog behavior is somewhat universal. He has trained thousands of dogs and he stakes his career on his own experiences, that dogs understand things from a dog perspective and that you can use the same techniques on any breed and they will work. He uses different skills depending on the size of the dog and its ability to learn, but otherwise, his philosophy covers any breed. I tend to agree with him after fostering dogs, not all GSDs. My most difficult and possibly smartest and highest drive German Shepherd was a WGSL. My most stubborn and most attentive dog has been a WL with Czech roots. But the techniques I used on those dogs and the fosters were just about the same.


I've had two dogs with working lines in them. The first was my first GSD and I blame my lack of experience as a trainer, owner, handler with all of his issues. No question. The second was Rushie. Rushie was a therapy dog, solid in temperament, never a land shark. was half WGSL (the good half I presume), and half other, including working lines and pet lines. The dog had a definite off-switch, and ended up being a service dog for a fellow for three years. Guy died and I got him back and gave him to my contractor. The dog was SOFT, and very biddable. Nice dog. 

But I read on here, and read on here, and read on here about all these working line puppies that are land sharks, and likely to tear your throat out if you aren't on top of them every moment. Teach them the place command, don't hug them, stay out of their space, throw a chain at them, use a prong collar, use an e-collar, use a muzzle, and on and on and on. 

I have raised 20 or 30, hard to say, WGSL puppies. I don't have these problems. 

I have had a couple of dogs returned to me -- none for not being able to get along with children in the house. Ok, there was that 12 year old boy that kept trying to get Dolly to go for him, teasing. Glad I got her back. She is not and has never been aggressive to kids. 

So people tell me, that I don't understand these _real (_working line) GSDs. 

Ok, then. If they can be tougher than the show-lines, being bred for high drives, hard temperament, high energy, and encouraged to tug, bite, chase after a flirt pole to increase drive, well maybe some lines tend to be tougher with respect to the land-shark stage. 

Right now I have 7 piranha at home. They bite. One tried to take a chunk out of my leg this morning. It's a big calf, and she is only 9 weeks old. So I suppose they graduated to being land-sharks as they are ready to go home. My 18 week old puppy does not bite at all. Not at all. She is sweet and easy, and done with the biting. I can only think that some puppies are not done with the biting at this point. Maybe some lines are just flat out bitier. Is that a word? Because it isn't just this poster that has this problem.


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## LuvShepherds

Selzer, don't you think the difficult WL dogs you read about here are purposely bred for that? I went looking for a SL and ended up finding the best puppies out of working lines. I didn't intend to but after a known WGSL breeder said she thought her dogs would be too difficult for me to handle, and a WL breeder said she had exactly the dog I was looking for, I got a WL. The second breeder was right. The first breeder didn't seem to understand when I said I wanted a dog that wasn't high drive, said there wasn't any purebred GSD without high drive. My dog is very drivey when I want him to work, but when I call him off, his attention shifts instantly. That is just what I wanted. He was a landshark for about a month, and then he suddenly wasn't. When he's not working, he is very mellow. Just the opposite of what you described.


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## Thecowboysgirl

It makes logical sense to me that the hard core working lines would be bred for being "bitier". it's a word now! It is an interesting discussion. I have not raised enough puppies to know. Both of my WLs were past that phase before coming home.

I can only contribute that my white, who I figure is equivalent ASL, was SO easy and gentle. The merest no-no, puppy. I don't think he ever bit me and drew blood as a pup. I can hardly remember him play biting me even, it was just absurdly easy to get him to redirect to a toy. Only thing was the toothy kisses. 

if I were raising him for schutzhund would more tenacity be better? I guess it would. I got him as a SD prospect though, so tenacious biting and willingness to fight wasn't a deciding factor...

People seem pretty loyal to their type, I don't know if anyone out there has raised dozens of each type to compare apples to apples?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> I've had two dogs with working lines in them. The first was my first GSD and I blame my lack of experience as a trainer, owner, handler with all of his issues. No question. The second was Rushie. Rushie was a therapy dog, solid in temperament, never a land shark. was half WGSL (the good half I presume), and half other, including working lines and pet lines. The dog had a definite off-switch, and ended up being a service dog for a fellow for three years. Guy died and I got him back and gave him to my contractor. The dog was SOFT, and very biddable. Nice dog.
> 
> I have my second female now that does not have an off switch. She is definitely not for the faint of heart.
> 
> But I read on here, and read on here, and read on here about all these working line puppies that are land sharks, and likely to tear your throat out if you aren't on top of them every moment. Teach them the place command, don't hug them, stay out of their space, throw a chain at them, use a prong collar, use an e-collar, use a muzzle, and on and on and on.
> 
> I have to question all this landshark stuff myself. I really have to question whether it is subliminally being taught to these puppies via some manner of play. I have owned nearly thirty GSDs of all types in my life time, and though there had been some puppy biting, I have just not found landsharking to be a problem with them.
> 
> When I grew up, people just told their dogs to go lay down, which meant choose a spot to lie in and leave me alone, so although slightly different from place, place is not something new or magical, somebody just recreated the wheel and painted it a different color and gave it a new name. I think the excessive use of tools is something new. I am not sure when all these gadgets became popular for pets, but it seems that they are being used as a tool to manage and control where dogs were once trained instead.
> 
> I have raised 20 or 30, hard to say, WGSL puppies. I don't have these problems.
> 
> I have had a couple of dogs returned to me -- none for not being able to get along with children in the house. Ok, there was that 12 year old boy that kept trying to get Dolly to go for him, teasing. Glad I got her back. She is not and has never been aggressive to kids.
> 
> So people tell me, that I don't understand these _real (_working line) GSDs.
> 
> Hmmm. Hard to say. I believe what you say about your dogs, but your descriptions just don't fit mine. That is not to say that I am having all these problems with mine, it is just to say that as a rule of thumb, the soft touch usually results in one of them flipping the furry finger at me. I am not saying you are an ineffective leader, but I believe strong leadership is necessary with working lines. I have met a lot of soft people that had no business owning a working line, or maybe even a WGSL. One in particular stands out and I never did understand why that breeder sold this dog to those people, full well knowing what she expected out of that dog as she retained breeding rights, and I saw it turn ugly in front of my eyes. Of course Mr. Softy alpha rolled the dog when it was over, (rolls eyes), but the incident should have never happened. Incidentally, I had seen Mr. Softy on previous occasions doing some drive building exercises, SMH.
> 
> Ok, then. If they can be tougher than the show-lines, being bred for high drives, hard temperament, high energy, and encouraged to tug, bite, chase after a flirt pole to increase drive, well maybe some lines tend to be tougher with respect to the land-shark stage.
> 
> I think a lot of the problem is that pet homes are trying all these "techniques" that IPO trainers and handlers use to train their dogs and are creating problems by increasing drive when they already have too much for what they want or need. I read it on this forum all the time and I sit and wonder just why do they think they have to do that and what do they think will be the implications down the road?
> 
> Right now I have 7 piranha at home. They bite. One tried to take a chunk out of my leg this morning. It's a big calf, and she is only 9 weeks old. So I suppose they graduated to being land-sharks as they are ready to go home. My 18 week old puppy does not bite at all. Not at all. She is sweet and easy, and done with the biting. I can only think that some puppies are not done with the biting at this point. Maybe some lines are just flat out bitier. Is that a word? Because it isn't just this poster that has this problem.


I disagree that all dogs are the same and that all dogs can be raised, trained and / or socialized and get the same results. I know of high powered dogs used in real work venues that can't pass a CGC. I know of one popular stud dog in the hands of a very experienced and well known trainer that can't take him beyond an IPO II despite applying the same training techniques to this dog as he has to all of the other dogs that he has taken to an IPO III. This is why trainers have tool boxes full of different tools, one size does not fit all.

You are not going to train a German Shepherd to point a bird the same way you would train a Pointer to do the same. The training techniques would have to be entirely different as you are starting with different inherent traits.

We just recently had the thread where a GSD almost was PTS because he was put in a place command on the lawn and attacked a trespassing child. If dogs are all the same, this should not have been a problem.


----------



## Chip18

MollyMarie said:


> I always love and appreciate your advice.
> 
> Believe me, we were OVERLY cautious. We checked out the parking lot (very few cars) and three of us went in. We all had our jobs to make sure the front and back were clear. We didn't want any surprises. We encountered several people and told them we were working on fear issues and they allowed us to calmly walk by them.
> 
> I was thrilled he took a cookie and ate it right then and there. I knew if he was overly afraid, he would not have done that. He passed the test!












LOL ... well ... you've out done even "ME!" I've never sent in "Recon forces" before entering "PetCo" .... I'm impressed! Not only did you "out think your dog/puppy" but you set him up for success and "actually ensured it happened!" 

That and in consideration of where you started ... "certainly" qualifies you for a "Houndie!" 

So here you go ... 










I should have kept track of who I award them to??? But sadly I did not ... my bad but trust me ... you're in some pretty "Elite" company!


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, don't you think the difficult WL dogs you read about here are purposely bred for that? I went looking for a SL and ended up finding the best puppies out of working lines. I didn't intend to but after a known WGSL breeder said she thought her dogs would be too difficult for me to handle, and a WL breeder said she had exactly the dog I was looking for, I got a WL. The second breeder was right. The first breeder didn't seem to understand when I said I wanted a dog that wasn't high drive, said there wasn't any purebred GSD without high drive. My dog is very drivey when I want him to work, but when I call him off, his attention shifts instantly. That is just what I wanted. He was a landshark for about a month, and then he suddenly wasn't. When he's not working, he is very mellow. Just the opposite of what you described.


He should have been. He was selected for you. The breeder had a puppy that clearly showed a different level of drive or energy, and knew it could be a good match for you. 

If she placed this puppy into a different situation, it may have been described as "not enough dog" for the owner. Some people figure that if you have a big enough engine, you can always drive like a granny, but when you need it, it is there. And other people figure, why get a horse that can pull a barn when all you need to pull is a buggy or a plow, why feed all that muscle? The dude that wants to take down big bad guys might be happier to have a hemi in their GSD-skin. The dude with a couple of kids and a couple of jobs, might be happier with a closet couch potato. And, frankly, I think half the GSD-owners out there would be better off with the GSD-CP.


----------



## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I disagree that all dogs are the same and that all dogs can be raised, trained and / or socialized and get the same results. I know of high powered dogs used in real work venues that can't pass a CGC. I know of one popular stud dog in the hands of a very experienced and well known trainer that can't take him beyond an IPO II despite applying the same training techniques to this dog as he has to all of the other dogs that he has taken to an IPO III. This is why trainers have tool boxes full of different tools, one size does not fit all.* I don't remember saying that all dogs were alike. I think I said different lines might have different requirements. Maybe. Yes, every litter is different. If you think about how a dog-pack in nature would be created and would function -- dog and bitch run together, have a litter of puppies and work together to take down game. Some are leaders, some followers. Some will be forward, some will be hesitant. If they were all chiefs and no Indians, then the pack would be in constant turmoil, so yes a litter is going to have different natural personalities. *
> 
> You are not going to train a German Shepherd to point a bird the same way you would train a Pointer to do the same. The training techniques would have to be entirely different as you are starting with different inherent traits.* Again, of course. Pointing the bird is genetic with the Pointer. GSDs do not have that genetic trait and you would actually have to train them to follow a set of instructions when they see a bird. The Pointer just needs to learn to work with his owner, hunt close, recall, flush, retrieve. The pointing is instinct. *
> 
> We just recently had the thread where a GSD almost was PTS because he was put in a place command on the lawn and attacked a trespassing child. If dogs are all the same, this should not have been a problem.


 
What in my post is saying that dogs are all the same? 

I do believe that there is actually less differences between dogs than there is between handlers, and the wide range of handler differences make dogs act very differently with one family than it does with another. And even we, ourselves can train 4 dogs in the course of 20 years and find every one to be very different. Maybe they aren't as different as we think, but we have grown and changed over the years, became more confident, or have less time to exercise the dog, or well, just about anything. 

Ah well, I forgot what I was arguing about. :frown2:


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> What in my post is saying that dogs are all the same?
> 
> I do believe that there is actually less differences between dogs than there is between handlers, and the wide range of handler differences make dogs act very differently with one family than it does with another. And even we, ourselves can train 4 dogs in the course of 20 years and find every one to be very different. Maybe they aren't as different as we think, but we have grown and changed over the years, became more confident, or have less time to exercise the dog, or well, just about anything.
> 
> Ah well, I forgot what I was arguing about. :frown2:


I was hoping I would not confuse you with the last couple of paragraphs as they were not directed to you but other comments made by other people and I was trying to condense my opinions into one comment. Sorry! :smile2:


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## LuvShepherds

MAWL, the trainer's point is that all dogs have things in common and if people understood dogs, there wouldn't be so many out of control. He wasn't talking about breed differences, but the areas where all dogs intersect. Example, I brought him a rescue we wanted to keep who had a HA problem sometimes but not all the time and was wonderful in a lot of situations. I was explaining to him that I wasn't sure if the dog was part American or WL because they are so different, and he said, You have a dog that f'ing put his teeth on someone and you are trying to figure out what his lines are? What does that matter? We are working on the aggression. And we did. He gets frustrated when people say things like, I have a Golden, so he can't be aggressive, when the dog is fierce. Or someone with five Poms that she plays kissy face with all the time says, Oh, it's Ok if I spoil them Poms are purse dogs, and then wonders why they band together to attack a neighbor's Bischon. He tells people look at the behavior and forget about preconceived ideas as to what your dog should be. Work on what is in front of you.


----------



## selzer

Oh yeah, my dogs don't flip the furry finger at me. Really, they don't, not ever. Oh, sometimes I have a pupper who wants to be out running in the field barking at the other dogs in their kennel and isn't ready to come through the gate when I want them to. I catch the dog and put it where I want it to be, usually by taking it by the scruff of the neck and holding on until we are through the gate. Every time. I am not punishing, or angry. I just compel the dog to be where I need him to be. I do not allow a command to not be followed through. And for a short while, I have to outwit the dog, or catch it and put it where I want it. But soon, it realizes it doesn't work, and when the dog does go in, when I tell them, I praise, and praise is so kool, because they think they just won the Olympics. "What a good girl you are!" They eat that stuff up. I don't run around with hot dogs in my pocket. But they still are really happy when I let them know they did the good thing. When I have a youngster that is still in the progress of running who needs to be caught and corralled, I do not take that personally. It just means the training isn't there yet. And we always get there. Because I always follow through.


----------



## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> He should have been. He was selected for you. The breeder had a puppy that clearly showed a different level of drive or energy, and knew it could be a good match for you.
> 
> If she placed this puppy into a different situation, it may have been described as "not enough dog" for the owner. Some people figure that if you have a big enough engine, you can always drive like a granny, but when you need it, it is there. And other people figure, why get a horse that can pull a barn when all you need to pull is a buggy or a plow, why feed all that muscle? The dude that wants to take down big bad guys might be happier to have a hemi in their GSD-skin. The dude with a couple of kids and a couple of jobs, might be happier with a closet couch potato. And, frankly, I think half the GSD-owners out there would be better off with the GSD-CP.


The thing is, the breeder asked us a lot of questions and she knew we have had challenging GSDs before. So we could have handled more dog but we didn't want to. He still has a few issues, but we are dealing with them and he is turning into a very nice, family dog. I'm glad she respected our needs and guided us toward the right puppy. In fact, she has some puppies out of each litter that will only go to working homes. If she can't find a buyer, she keeps them, starts training and sells them as older trained or partially trained dogs. Even so, she wants us to put a few titles on him and get him into a sport, just not IPO. He isn't cut out for it. 

CP is probably not the right term for him as he doesn't sleep all day. Right now he is harassing my older dog so she will play with him. He needs to stay busy a lot of the time, but he is very calm while he is watching out for intruders like the neighbor's cat. The difference between him and my really hyper past dogs is that he doesn't bug me all the time. But when he wants something, he is very persistent.

It sounds like no matter the line, there are people posting here who are new to the breed who either don't have any idea what they are getting into or get a dog that is too much for a first German Shepherd or for their lifestyles. I had younger children with our more hyper dogs so the kids tired them out for me. I would be very annoyed now if I had a Go-Go-Go dog.


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> The thing is, the breeder asked us a lot of questions and she knew we have had challenging GSDs before. So we could have handled more dog but we didn't want to. He still has a few issues, but we are dealing with them and he is turning into a very nice, family dog. I'm glad she respected our needs and guided us toward the right puppy. In fact, she has some puppies out of each litter that will only go to working homes. If she can't find a buyer, she keeps them, starts training and sells them as older trained or partially trained dogs. Even so, she wants us to put a few titles on him and get him into a sport, just not IPO. He isn't cut out for it.
> 
> CP is probably not the right term for him as he doesn't sleep all day. Right now he is harassing my older dog so she will play with him. He needs to stay busy a lot of the time, but he is very calm while he is watching out for intruders like the neighbor's cat. The difference between him and my really hyper past dogs is that he doesn't bug me all the time. But when he wants something, he is very persistent.
> 
> It sounds like no matter the line, there are people posting here who are new to the breed who either don't have any idea what they are getting into or get a dog that is too much for a first German Shepherd or for their lifestyles. I had younger children with our more hyper dogs so the kids tired them out for me. I would be very annoyed now if I had a Go-Go-Go dog.


I think that after experiencing a challenging pup and bringing it from point F to point C or B or A, our next dog is easier. This pup you have now could be an F dog or even worse in a different home. But you see him as a C or even a B dog that just needs to be mature and be tweeked to get him to A-level. I am using variable letters, because all of us have a different definition for A, B, C, F, etc. The pup who is awesome and perfect for you, might be a B or a C to me, but that is probably reversed. And my A-dog might be your B or C. 

We sometimes forget how bad puppyhood was. But we also seem to forget all the stuff we are currently doing like second nature that that dog taught us and the new dog understands completely. 

I better shut up before my lack of sleep starts shining through.


----------



## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> I think that after experiencing a challenging pup and bringing it from point F to point C or B or A, our next dog is easier. This pup you have now could be an F dog or even worse in a different home. But you see him as a C or even a B dog that just needs to be mature and be tweeked to get him to A-level. I am using variable letters, because all of us have a different definition for A, B, C, F, etc. The pup who is awesome and perfect for you, might be a B or a C to me, but that is probably reversed. And my A-dog might be your B or C.
> 
> We sometimes forget how bad puppyhood was. But we also seem to forget all the stuff we are currently doing like second nature that that dog taught us and the new dog understands completely.
> 
> I better shut up before my lack of sleep starts shining through.


Now I see what you mean. This dog would be more difficult in a different home. I'm sure of that, because as a younger puppy we had some very difficult days. We burned through a lot of trainers, including one I had used with several dogs. The new trainer has us doing more of the IPO type obedience exercises, focused heeling, just no bite work. Once we started using the new methods where he knows exactly what we want without question and we insist he follow through, I could see him totally relax and mellow out. So, yes, we have had some part in his behavior. But unless it was there in his genes as a possibility, I couldn't have turned him into a mellow dog. He had that potential, we just had to find it.

The biter went from an F- to a D+ unless he was alone with us. Then he was a B-. But we never got him to the point of being comfortable with all strangers.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> MAWL, the trainer's point is that all dogs have things in common and if people understood dogs, there wouldn't be so many out of control. He wasn't talking about breed differences, but the areas where all dogs intersect. Example, I brought him a rescue we wanted to keep who had a HA problem sometimes but not all the time and was wonderful in a lot of situations. I was explaining to him that I wasn't sure if the dog was part American or WL because they are so different, and he said, You have a dog that f'ing put his teeth on someone and you are trying to figure out what his lines are? What does that matter? We are working on the aggression. And we did. He gets frustrated when people say things like, I have a Golden, so he can't be aggressive, when the dog is fierce. Or someone with five Poms that she plays kissy face with all the time says, Oh, it's Ok if I spoil them Poms are purse dogs, and then wonders why they band together to attack a neighbor's Bischon. He tells people look at the behavior and forget about preconceived ideas as to what your dog should be. Work on what is in front of you.


What is in front of you is etched in DNA at the time of conception. One can't exist without the other. 

Regarding Goldens, did you know that genetic studies have shown that @ one in a hundred Goldens have impulse aggression? It is a medical condition of the brain. Impulse aggression is an aggressive response above and beyond what would be expected from any dog in a given situation that should not normally be provocative. 

I can't document this, but somebody posted on this forum a week or so that there are lines of Goldens afflicted with extreme food aggression, which is genetic and not created. I know this happens in GSDs as well.

If you had an aggressive Golden, especially if you had children, which trainer would you prefer to help you? The one that has knowledge of the "breed in front of him" that is aware of the possibility of impulse aggression and its ramifications for your children or one that thinks a dog is a dog and works on the behavior? Do you think dog training can "fix / correct" this medical condition? 

Or how about inherent food aggression vs taught food aggression? Genetics you can enhance and suppress with training. Do you think a trainer can apply the same techniques and get the same long term results without follow up?


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What is in front of you is etched in DNA at the time of conception. One can't exist without the other.
> 
> Regarding Goldens, did you know that genetic studies have shown that @ one in a hundred Goldens have impulse aggression? It is a medical condition of the brain. Impulse aggression is an aggressive response above and beyond what would be expected from any dog in a given situation that should not normally be provocative.
> 
> I can't document this, but somebody posted on this forum a week or so that there are lines of Goldens afflicted with extreme food aggression, which is genetic and not created. I know this happens in GSDs as well.
> 
> If you had an aggressive Golden, especially if you had children, which trainer would you prefer to help you? The one that has knowledge of the "breed in front of him" that is aware of the possibility of impulse aggression and its ramifications for your children or one that thinks a dog is a dog and works on the behavior? Do you think dog training can "fix / correct" this medical condition?
> 
> Or how about inherent food aggression vs taught food aggression? Genetics you can enhance and suppress with training. Do you think a trainer can apply the same techniques and get the same long term results without follow up?


I'm just telling you what he told us. We aren't using him anymore because he didn't know what worked with our current puppy and didn't feel like working with the major problem we were having at the time. But in terms of aggression, he gets very good results. So what he is doing works, whether he knows about genetic aggression or not.

How do they recommend working with that in Goldens? Is it medically treatable?


----------



## Chip18

belladonnalily said:


> How old are your daughters? One thing regarding management to be considered: are you prepared to safely keep this dog away from your daughters friends forever? Because if all is how you say, he will always be a huge liability. Kids make mistakes and having him bite one of your children's friends is not a small thing.
> 
> I think you have received good advice. Mine would be to rehome with someone more experienced. My 16 wk old pup has a bit of a temper. He is opposite of your pup...no fear of anything. He is already trying to figure out who he can mow over. If I had ANY fear of him, I'd wind up with a huge problem. I got him to be a more serious working dog so I was prepared. But I can't imagine a pet home with kids trying to raise him.
> 
> Life is too short to try to make things work when so much is at stake. Good luck to you!


 Exercising refrain here ... it is the job of the "primary" handler to train the dog! The only thing required of "Pack Members" is to issue "commands!" 

The dog's jobs once "properly trained" is to say "Sir, Yes Sir" end of story to "Pack Members!" 

I'm listening "these days" to "Marilyn" say how "oh Rocky is not that big a deal!" 

I guess ... she doesn't remember how she "used" to say "living with him is like living with a ticking time bomb!" 

Whatever ... but "I" did it myself .... and I figure ... so can others?? People just have to know where to look ... "my job." 

"Those that can, "DO" those that can't??? Well ... I guess I have no idea??? My moto ...










"Some" people get that ... good enough for me.


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Now I see what you mean. This dog would be more difficult in a different home. I'm sure of that, because as a younger puppy we had some very difficult days. We burned through a lot of trainers, including one I had used with several dogs. The new trainer has us doing more of the IPO type obedience exercises, focused heeling, just no bite work. Once we started using the new methods where he knows exactly what we want without question and we insist he follow through, I could see him totally relax and mellow out. So, yes, we have had some part in his behavior. But unless it was there in his genes as a possibility, I couldn't have turned him into a mellow dog. He had that potential, we just had to find it.
> 
> The biter went from an F- to a D+ unless he was alone with us. Then he was a B-. But we never got him to the point of being comfortable with all strangers.


What monster did I awaken??? Now I am thinking about giving all my dogs report cards and progress reports. 

I need to get a life. :smile2:


----------



## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> What monster did I awaken??? Now I am thinking about giving all my dogs report cards and progress reports.
> 
> I need to get a life. :smile2:


Ha! You have a life. And it's a fun one.


----------



## selzer

No this is important. 

We have expectations for our dogs. 

We have expectations for their behavior.
We have expectations for their abilities.
We have expectations for their character/temperament.

We have a perception of what their character/temperament is.
We have a perception of what their abilities are. 
We have a perception of their behavior. 

How much of an external trainer's job is to perceive our perceptions and improve them where our perception of our dog is not quite the reality? And how much is helping us to accept our expectations may not be age-appropriate, or reasonable for the dog in question, and wherever possible to give us a path to reaching our expectations for the dog? 

I really believe that the vast majority of any trainer's job is to communicate effectively with the owner, to understand what the owner wants and what the owner needs and what the owner sees in his dog. That being realized, the trainer just needs to communicate how the owner can change his behavior to make the pup fall into line. 

Wow, the more I am around dogs, the more I think of dogs, the more I study dogs, the more I run into people and study them, the more I think that the problems are almost all on the human end of the lead. 

If we are consistent, If we follow through, If we are aware of what our dog is telling us, if we have reasonable expectations, we can have a really nice dog.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm just telling you what he told us.* We aren't using him anymore because he didn't know what worked with our current puppy *and didn't feel like working with the major problem we were having at the time. But in terms of aggression, he gets very good results. So what he is doing works, whether he knows about genetic aggression or not.
> 
> How do they recommend working with that in Goldens? Is it medically treatable?


The bolded tells me that the trainer treated your puppy as a dog is a dog,* and that method failed.*

Although impulse aggression can afflict any breed, fortunately it is not prevalent in most. I honestly don't know what works for dog afflicted with the condition. Maybe a trainer familiar with Goldens can chime in.

Regarding "fixing" aggression. As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out. I can't remember what thread it was on, but adversives, behavior modification, etc., for dog aggression were discussed in quite a bit of detail and apparently the bottom line was without recurring reinforcement, there really is no "fix". 

I would also like to add that I see things being used to "fix" aggression on many video clips on here that most who work their dogs would not, and do not, use on their own dogs. Michael Ellis states that such gimmicks are a short term fix and that after a few times the stable dog will become inured to the tool and will return to its formal state. What happens to the less than stable or fearful dog? Do you think the tool is creating more fear and conflict? Is making a fearful dog more fearful a viable solution?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Oh yeah, my dogs don't flip the furry finger at me. Really, they don't, not ever. Oh, sometimes I have a pupper who wants to be out running in the field barking at the other dogs in their kennel and isn't ready to come through the gate when I want them to. I catch the dog and put it where I want it to be, usually by taking it by the scruff of the neck and holding on until we are through the gate. Every time. I am not punishing, or angry. I just compel the dog to be where I need him to be. I do not allow a command to not be followed through. And for a short while, I have to outwit the dog, or catch it and put it where I want it. But soon, it realizes it doesn't work, and when the dog does go in, when I tell them, I praise, and praise is so kool, because they think they just won the Olympics. "What a good girl you are!" They eat that stuff up. I don't run around with hot dogs in my pocket. But they still are really happy when I let them know they did the good thing. When I have a youngster that is still in the progress of running who needs to be caught and corralled, I do not take that personally. It just means the training isn't there yet. And we always get there. Because I always follow through.


I don't think I made myself clear with flipping the furry finger. To clarify, let's use my oldest bitch. If I verbally reprimand her for doing something wrong, she DOES stop. She stands there with a hang dog look on her face, while her tail is wagging up a storm. To me, the front end is acquiescent while the back end is flipping the furry finger.


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Ha! You have a life. And it's a fun one.


yes it is. 

On Wednesday, dog food was on sale. 

I would have gotten home at 12:30AM, but went grocery shopping and got in at 1:30AM.

I came home and fed all the puppies, Quinn, Ramona, and the various S's. 

I cooked breaded, fried, baked (on the stove) pork chops, and brussel sprouts, which I ate with Babsy. 

I went to sleep at 4:30AM

I got up early, at 8(because they sell out of dog food if it is a good sale). 

It was so hot and sticky, I showered, dressed, jumped in the car, and ran to buy 15 bags of dog food. 

On route I called the vet and discussed Quinn's issue. 

Rushed the bags home, and put 1 in the house and 5 in the explorer, and got Quinn and dropped her off at the vet for x-rays. 

Then I went back home and took care of all the dogs, food, water, poop.

Took another shower. 

Packed two of the pork chops, some frozen potato skins and asparagus, and went to Mom and Dads, to drop it off. 

Picked up Quinn and brought her home and put her in with Babsy. 

I was early for work so I stopped at the geriatric center to visit a friend. 

It has been almost two months and I haven't had time to visit her, but on the day that I had to run to Ashtabula to buy dog food, and then take the pup to the vet and home from the vet after being sedated, and took food to my parents, I left for work early enough to stop. How does that happen???

Then I went to work form 3PM to 11:30PM. And Wednesday became Thursday while I was driving. 

And I called my sister twice to sing her various birthday songs. Weird ones, Weird Al -- that kind of stuff. 


Today started at 6AM, and I got out ready for the dog show and for work by 8:30 with everyone taken care of including me. Even remembered my meds. Kind of crazy I can remember them on a hectic, crazy morning, and forget them on a normal day.

Got there shortly after nine AM and got to watch Gretal win her class. We didn't get winner's bitch though. So I hung around with her owners and had brunch.

Then I hit Office Max on my way in to make the copies for the puppy books. 

I still had tons of time so I went to Barnes and Noble and had a lunchish thing there. Then I went to work. 

Tonight, I have to get food, clean the house, and sleep before my day begins tomorrow, early, again. 

I have a life. 
I do.
But it is really crazy right now. 

Time to blow this pop stand, and head out to another night.

I expect to sell a puppy tomorrow at 10am. 

Take a dog up to the match, maybe Quinn. Maybe not. 

And maybe just take her to my friend's house in Medina and go swimming, and meet the other puppies. 

I cancelled my Dentist appointment today. Jut too much stuff in one day. Glad my priorities are right.


----------



## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't think I made myself clear with flipping the furry finger. To clarify, let's use my oldest bitch. If I verbally reprimand her for doing something wrong, she DOES stop. She stands there with a hang dog look on her face, while her tail is wagging up a storm. To me, the front end is acquiescent while the back end is flipping the furry finger.


To me she is worried about you not being happy so her head is down, and her back end is wagging in an effort to appease you.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> To me she is worried about you not being happy so her head is down, and her back end is wagging in an effort to appease you.


I know, it is just annoying. :smile2:


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> We just recently had the thread where a GSD almost was PTS because he was put in a place command on the lawn and attacked a trespassing child. If dogs are all the same, this should not have been a problem.


Oh ... please point that thread out to me?? I'd be interested because my dog "who does not much care for kids" was put in "Place" on a patio and Grandma showed up unexpectedly??

And while I was busy attending my client Grandma fell asleep and the "toddler" walked out where "Rocky" was! I noticed the kid was missing and freaked!! Bolted outside found the the "toddler" but no "Rocky??"

I looked to my left and saw "Rocky" 20 feet away, the toddler had approached him and "Rocky" choose to "Walk Away!" My dogs "make good choices." And making "Good Choices" by a dog, is what training a "Dog" ... is about.

One dog and one owner getting it wrong ... "assuming" that is accurate" does not discredit the "thousands of dogs and owners that get it right!" 

I did not "invent" "Place" and neither did "Baillif" pretty sure it's been around for "Decades??" If "some" people see no value to "Place" ... then don't "train it." For me and others ... "Place means Place" and we don't go forward until that is clear to the dog! Pretty much that simple. 

I have no idea what IPO/LE/PPD training is about, not my thing. I do "family pets" and some people have WL GSD doing that "job." 

And all the wild "overstatements" "suddenly cropping up" notwithstanding?? All "Pet People" need to know are to set "Rules, Limitations and Boundaries" and training "Place" helps in achieving just that. Add "Exposure to people vs Socialization" with people and most likely with there "WL GSD" they "won't" see the "old my dog changed thing??"

Saying "NO" instead of "YES Please Do" too may I pet, was the only change required for "people" with my GSD, as I already knew how to train a "Dog." In retrospect ...no big deal.

That works just fine with "All" dogs by the way ... you know for those of us that have more than one "Breed" of dog ... but I guess ... that must just be me??? Some of us ... aren't one trick ponies ... 

OP ... sorry "stuff like this" tends to happen a lot around here and yeah by and large I'm usually in the middle of it??? 

But ...now you know ... why most "Pro's" save for a very few ... (and you know who you are. ) By and large don't do open forums. They don't have time or "patience" for "crap!"

I am not a "Pro" I just follow and share those whose training philosophy I share and I heard from them ...*"Thank You for being different." * That's a quote by the way.

Nuff Said.


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## MollyMarie

belladonnalily said:


> How old are your daughters? One thing regarding management to be considered: are you prepared to safely keep this dog away from your daughters friends forever? Because if all is how you say, he will always be a huge liability. Kids make mistakes and having him bite one of your children's friends is not a small thing.
> 
> I think you have received good advice. Mine would be to rehome with someone more experienced. My 16 wk old pup has a bit of a temper. He is opposite of your pup...no fear of anything. He is already trying to figure out who he can mow over. If I had ANY fear of him, I'd wind up with a huge problem. I got him to be a more serious working dog so I was prepared. But I can't imagine a pet home with kids trying to raise him.
> 
> Life is too short to try to make things work when so much is at stake. Good luck to you!


My daughters are over 18 and we are in this together. No matter the adjustments we have to make, it is worth it because we love the little guy too much. That said, our #1 priority is making sure that everyone around him is safe at ALL times. 

I am the first to admit that I don't have the experience needed to raise a GSD - BUT, I am learning and learning fast. There has not been a day that I am not reading a book, reading on the forums, and/or watching videos on YouTube. It probably would have been better to do my homework first - but I didn't and can't look back now. All we can do is push forward and work as hard as we can. Thankfully, our efforts are paying off.


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## MollyMarie

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... well ... you've out done even "ME!" I've never sent in "Recon forces" before entering "PetCo" .... I'm impressed! Not only did you "out think your dog/puppy" but you set him up for success and "actually ensured it happened!"
> 
> That and in consideration of where you started ... "certainly" qualifies you for a "Houndie!"
> 
> I should have kept track of who I award them to??? But sadly I did not ... my bad but trust me ... you're in some pretty "Elite" company!


I'm a Houndie??? Besides being citizen of the year in 4th grade - that is probably the biggest honor I've received. LOL!!!  Thank you, my friend.


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## Chip18

LOL ... research first??? My research consisted of ... "a big furry dog with a pointy face!" I'm a "Boxer and Pit Derivatives" kinda guy. So for me a Wl GSD was no big deal ... yeah ... not so much!

The few issues I had were "Breed" specific and they did not show up for 7 months ... 12 to 18 month range. Had I done what I now know/understand and advise ... none of that crap every would have happened. It started with "De-Crate" training (who does that??) and went downhill from there.  

The school of hard knocks works for some of us ... I'd just like to keep others from attending.


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## Chip18

MollyMarie said:


> I'm a Houndie??? Besides being citizen of the year in 4th grade - that is probably the biggest honor I've received. LOL!!!  Thank you, my friend.


Yeah I've given out a few ... should have kept track. Aww well ... live and learn.


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## Castlemaid

I deleted a post that was an attack on a member. Please address the OP's issues at hand, and leave the one-upmanship off the board. 

Thank you, 

ADMIN.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded tells me that the trainer treated your puppy as a dog is a dog,* and that method failed.*
> 
> Although impulse aggression can afflict any breed, fortunately it is not prevalent in most. I honestly don't know what works for dog afflicted with the condition. Maybe a trainer familiar with Goldens can chime in.
> 
> Regarding "fixing" aggression. As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out. I can't remember what thread it was on, but adversives, behavior modification, etc., for dog aggression were discussed in quite a bit of detail and apparently the bottom line was without recurring reinforcement, there really is no "fix".
> 
> I would also like to add that I see things being used to "fix" aggression on many video clips on here that most who work their dogs would not, and do not, use on their own dogs. Michael Ellis states that such gimmicks are a short term fix and that after a few times the stable dog will become inured to the tool and will return to its formal state. What happens to the less than stable or fearful dog? Do you think the tool is creating more fear and conflict? Is making a fearful dog more fearful a viable solution?


MAWL Do you know where he talked about this? I'd like to see it if you do. Are you referring to the heavily punitive trainers who basically shut down all free will on really aggressive dogs?


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## Julian G

Maybe I have a different outlook on things, or maybe it's because I have been around shelters and have fostered dogs in the past....But I feel many owners give up on dogs way too soon.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> MAWL Do you know where he talked about this? I'd like to see it if you do. Are you referring to the heavily punitive trainers who basically shut down all free will on really aggressive dogs?


I will try to find the thread on this, but can't promise I can. No, it was not about heavily punitive trainers but more about what can be realistically accomplished with a dog's inherent traits. :wink2:

But here is Michael Ellis talking about "air things", etc., used to correct behaviors. He states it is not as important in pet dogs but then goes on to say that they will become inured to it as well.


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## LuvShepherds

Selzer, when do you sleep? I lost count but it seems like you are averaging four hours a night. I got tired reading your post.


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## LuvShepherds

MollyMarie said:


> My daughters are over 18 and we are in this together. No matter the adjustments we have to make, it is worth it because we love the little guy too much. That said, our #1 priority is making sure that everyone around him is safe at ALL times.
> 
> I am the first to admit that I don't have the experience needed to raise a GSD - BUT, I am learning and learning fast. There has not been a day that I am not reading a book, reading on the forums, and/or watching videos on YouTube. It probably would have been better to do my homework first - but I didn't and can't look back now. All we can do is push forward and work as hard as we can. Thankfully, our efforts are paying off.


I missed a few posts and got sidetracked, but I hope you continue to work with the quality trainer that was recommended to you in the first place.


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## Steve Strom

MollyMarie said:


> My daughters are over 18 and we are in this together. No matter the adjustments we have to make, it is worth it because we love the little guy too much. That said, our #1 priority is making sure that everyone around him is safe at ALL times.
> 
> I am the first to admit that I don't have the experience needed to raise a GSD - BUT, I am learning and learning fast. There has not been a day that I am not reading a book, reading on the forums, and/or watching videos on YouTube. It probably would have been better to do my homework first - but I didn't and can't look back now. All we can do is push forward and work as hard as we can. Thankfully, our efforts are paying off.


Its not that you don't have the experience needed for a gsd. Its just that your particular pup comes with some different issues. You were right when it came to what you saw in his temperament. You saw it for what it was.

One of the best pieces of advise I've ever gotten was "What do you do if that doesn't work?" That's the whole advantage to the trainer you're working with over any video or advice online. He's going to fill in those gaps when the pup doesn't do exactly what the dog in the video did.

Working with the right person, not being bothered by making adjustments, really wanting to train your dog. You have all the pieces you need to make living with him enjoyable and not all stress.


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## MineAreWorkingline

It is good that OP is prioritizing everybody's safety. Working with a good trainer is the best that can be done in this situation. In a few months, the pup will be 90 pounds, and the problem could be that much larger without professional help.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is good that OP is prioritizing everybody's safety. Working with a good trainer is the best that can be done in this situation. In a few months, the pup will be 90 pounds, and the problem could be that much larger without professional help.


It happens suddenly, too, and owners who don't work with trainers or have experience are not prepared.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> It happens suddenly, too, and owners who don't work with trainers or have experience are not prepared.


If somebody is afraid of a 4 month old puppy, that can only escalate as the pup grows and matures. She is in good hands now with a good trainer and should be able to bring it together. 

I can't wait to hear updates from OP how this puppy is doing with his training and what the trainer recommends.


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## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, when do you sleep? I lost count but it seems like you are averaging four hours a night. I got tired reading your post.


Normally, I get enough sleep. This week has been horrid in that respect. I got less than 3 hours last night. But that's ok, it was an awesome day -- needs its own thread.


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