# E collar question



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Hey, 
I just recently picked up a dogtra e collar for our dog, he's over a year old now and we've been training with a long biothane line hiking for a while now. He has been perfect for a few months now with recalls under serious distractions like other dogs, people, deer, rabbits, etc. I feel he is ready to be off leash and reliable and I want to give him more freedom, the long line tangles and trips me up a lot and we often travel to places with rocky terrain where I need my hands to climb; which is why I bought the e collar. However, I didn't feel comfortable reading the lou castle pamphlet and training by myself so i'm working with an experienced GSD trainer with the e collar for the first time this week (the trainer will be teaching me how to properly use the e collar) so I do it right. I have never used an e collar before and I want to know what to expect with this first training "lesson". What do they typically do to "train" the dog with the e collar for off leash work? Here is my concern... my husband and I tried the dogtra e collar on ourselves and beyond #39 we thought it was seriously painful... we couldn't tolerate it beyond that point let alone fathom cranking it all the way up to #127! When they are first training the dog with an e collar do they ever crank it up that high?... I don't feel right putting my dog through pain that my husband and I can not even tolerate.... the buzz feature and low intensity stimuli I am all for. My goal is for this collar to effectively act like an invisible leash so he can be safe on our hikes without the hassle of dealing with a leash. I want it to act as an emergency back up system in case if his obedience fails which I feel would be extremely rare as it is with his current maturity level. 
Thanks for the help


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I use the Sportdog Field Trainer. Its a wonderful communication tool at 500 yards with it's buzzes and tones. I have heard that lots of those collars do not go up to as high as the settings say. Of course they are only used for corrections when the dog definitely KNOWS the command and is blowing you off. The strength of the stim needed to get their attention is based on how excited and in drive they are. You want them to veer off of crittering while they are just started, such as trotting or walking toward in a hyped up fashion, even better, when just looking, with a verbal NO. If they have started off running hard right toward the road then higher voltage is needed because they are mind blowing excited. Don't let them go there. Still, in my opinion since there are wild boars here, it better to have and not need than need and not have. Your trainer will teach you. Its all about timing. You'll get used to it. Your dog impresses me as a soft GSD, you won't need higher settings I bet.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I use the Sportdog Field Trainer. Its a wonderful communication tool at 500 yards with it's buzzes and tones. I have heard that lots of those collars do not go up to as high as the settings say. Of course they are only used for corrections when the dog definitely KNOWS the command and is blowing you off. The strength of the stim needed to get their attention is based on how excited and in drive they are. You want them to veer off of crittering while they are just started, such as trotting or walking toward in a hyped up fashion, even better, when just looking, with a verbal NO. If they have started off running hard right toward the road then higher voltage is needed because they are mind blowing excited. Don't let them go there. Still, in my opinion since there are wild boars here, it better to have and not need than need and not have. Your trainer will teach you. Its all about timing. You'll get used to it. Your dog impresses me as a soft GSD, you won't need higher settings I bet.


Thank you Nurse, that makes a lot of sense very similar to how I train with the leash. Whenever I see the ears prick forward on the trail I watch carefully and react if need be. I'm just wondering if there's a standard practice trainers use when first introducing the e collar of cranking it up all the way to make an impression or something crazy like that... I wish the dogtra I got had tones, I was very disappointed to find out it didn't but my trainer must have felt it wasn't necessary. This is all so new to me. He really is a "soft" dog, the tone of my voice is usually enough of a correction for him an very rarely and actual leash correction.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

First of all, have him wear it for 2 weeks before you even use it. This way he may not associate the stim with the collar. Only have him wear it when you are out and about with him as continuous wear can cause sores from the pressure of the poles. Lou Castle has a good handout on how to use it. There is plenty of info here on this forum about it.
The only reason I use the Ecollar is to prevent her from chasing wild life.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Hey,
> I just recently picked up a dogtra e collar for our dog, he's over a year old now and we've been training with a long biothane line hiking for a while now. He has been perfect for a few months now with recalls under serious distractions like other dogs, people, deer, rabbits, etc. I feel he is ready to be off leash and reliable and I want to give him more freedom, the long line tangles and trips me up a lot and we often travel to places with rocky terrain where I need my hands to climb; which is why I bought the e collar. However, I didn't feel comfortable reading the lou castle pamphlet and training by myself so i'm working with an experienced GSD trainer with the e collar for the first time this week (the trainer will be teaching me how to properly use the e collar) so I do it right. I have never used an e collar before and I want to know what to expect with this first training "lesson". What do they typically do to "train" the dog with the e collar for off leash work? Here is my concern... my husband and I tried the dogtra e collar on ourselves and beyond #39 we thought it was seriously painful... we couldn't tolerate it beyond that point let alone fathom cranking it all the way up to #127! When they are first training the dog with an e collar do they ever crank it up that high?... I don't feel right putting my dog through pain that my husband and I can not even tolerate.... the buzz feature and low intensity stimuli I am all for. My goal is for this collar to effectively act like an invisible leash so he can be safe on our hikes without the hassle of dealing with a leash. I want it to act as an emergency back up system in case if his obedience fails which I feel would be extremely rare as it is with his current maturity level.
> Thanks for the help


He is so cute. #1, ask your trainer what to expect, they should be able to explain to you what typically happens during the first few sessions and what their process is with the e collar. They all probably do it slightly differently depending on the application. I think it's probably important to ask your trainer how they use the e collar anyway because they don't all do it the same and you probably want to be sure like everything else, you are choosing a trainer who will use the e collar the way you want to use the e collar.

There is no reason to be doing anything on a 127 to your dog in the first few sessions, maybe ever. My boy's been on E Collar for over a year and I've never dreamed of cranking him to to the top. When I start a dog, and when I have seen other people start a dog, step 1 is to find the level they can feel as evidenced by an ear twitch or a look or scratch. Then get to work explaining what it means. There may be a small amount of stress but sometimes almost none, depending on the dog and the skill of person operating the collar. The trainer should be able to help the dog through any stress.

Be sure the trainer shows you how to put the collar on snug with good contact and scrub the contact points in. You might consider a bungee collar and longer contact points because of the hair. I think one of the biggest issues people have at first is inconsistent contact.

For reference, all dogs are different but my boy could perceive a 4 or 5 on a Dogtra 1900 although one he got over the novelty and when out into the world we did foundation work on a 15, which was not startling or upsetting to him. 

My girl also could perceive a 4 and did her foundation work on an 8.

My boy's emergency break oh crap deer number is 35. (1900) My 3 shepherds have pretty much been in that range-- teens for lower intensity stuff and 30s for higher intensity stuff. My old male went higher sometimes when he wanted to kill something.

I know other dogs who have never gone over number 10 on a 280 which is a lower powered unit. It's whatever # the dog says is right reading how they respond

Ask your trainer, they might even have video of starting other dogs so you can see how they do it?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

" I'm just wondering if there's a standard practice trainers use when first introducing the e collar of cranking it up all the way to make an impression or something crazy like that... "

No. If your trainer thought this was a good idea I'd pack my dog up real quick and go find another trainer.

I do use the vibe on dogtra but I think it is pretty unpopular with most people.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> First of all, have him wear it for 2 weeks before you even use it. This way he may not associate the stim with the collar. Only have him wear it when you are out and about with him as continuous wear can cause sores from the pressure of the poles. Lou Castle has a good handout on how to use it. There is plenty of info here on this forum about it.
> The only reason I use the Ecollar is to prevent her from chasing wild life.


Ah jeez that's such a good point I didn't even think about... same thing we did with the prong collar :headbang: Do you think 4 days wearing it without stimuli would be sufficient? Our appointment with the trainer is Wednesday and he's very busy it seems so I'm not keen on rescheduling. That's exactly my reason for using it too, I don't plan on using a e collar for any other reasons he has no bad habits.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Thank you Nurse, that makes a lot of sense very similar to how I train with the leash. Whenever I see the ears prick forward on the trail I watch carefully and react if need be. I'm just wondering if there's a standard practice trainers use when first introducing the e collar of cranking it up all the way to make an impression or something crazy like that... I wish the dogtra I got had tones, I was very disappointed to find out it didn't but my trainer must have felt it wasn't necessary. This is all so new to me. He really is a "soft" dog, the tone of my voice is usually enough of a correction for him an very rarely and actual leash correction.


Oh no, no 'cranking it up' to start with. Could you send it back and get the one with tones? For your very soft dog probably the just vibration as a warning. If that doesn't work a size 1 correction. After that a vibration will feel like a size 1 correction. I think 4 days of wearing will be OK. But still, he has to wear it all day and you move the box on the collar around every 2 hours.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

At first you want to see what level stim your dog acknowledges that he felt it. They will usually show this by ducking their head a little and licking their lips. Or like Cowgirl said an ear twitch. You don't want to make them yelp. That is too high for the situation and not a good learning zone. Gosh he's a pretty dog


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> He is so cute. #1, ask your trainer what to expect, they should be able to explain to you what typically happens during the first few sessions and what their process is with the e collar. They all probably do it slightly differently depending on the application. I think it's probably important to ask your trainer how they use the e collar anyway because they don't all do it the same and you probably want to be sure like everything else, you are choosing a trainer who will use the e collar the way you want to use the e collar.
> 
> There is no reason to be doing anything on a 127 to your dog in the first few sessions, maybe ever. My boy's been on E Collar for over a year and I've never dreamed of cranking him to to the top. When I start a dog, and when I have seen other people start a dog, step 1 is to find the level they can feel as evidenced by an ear twitch or a look or scratch. Then get to work explaining what it means. There may be a small amount of stress but sometimes almost none, depending on the dog and the skill of person operating the collar. The trainer should be able to help the dog through any stress.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for that explanation cowboys, always appreciate your input! That's incredible your dogs felt a #4, my husband and I couldn't lol! We bought the Dogtra 1900 I believe too, can you buy the longer probes separately and install them on the standard collar or will we need to buy a different collar?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> " I'm just wondering if there's a standard practice trainers use when first introducing the e collar of cranking it up all the way to make an impression or something crazy like that... "
> 
> No. If your trainer thought this was a good idea I'd pack my dog up real quick and go find another trainer.
> 
> I do use the vibe on dogtra but I think it is pretty unpopular with most people.


My trainer has never mentioned doing anything like that and I do trust him, I was just worried and wondering what to expect. He's a very soft gentle dog, the last thing I want to do is hurt him. This is all new to me and I've only ever seen E collars used the wrong way :frown2: . How come you think the vibrate is so unpopular? It felt like a pretty good option to us.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I HIGHLY recommend going to Lou Castles website. Tons of fantastic info there.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

We changed to the long contact points and Inga is not a long coat. The points are 5/8th " I measured them. One thing, when you are going out into the fields or on the trails, tighten the collar so you know they have good contact. Loosen them when you come in. Didn't the longer points come with your collar?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's a way to introduce electric, because dogs don't understand what it is. A leash and collar always have a direct connection to you, so in general where you get into trouble with e is making incorrect associations in the dogs head, or in my opinion, nagging the snot out of them with the "low stim conversation" stuff. Here's some reading from the place they developed the newer models of TriTronics collars.

https://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/index.html

It was in Marysville, not Culver City.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

No we didn't get longer points with our collar oddly enough... thank you all for your input, I feel a lot better about this and now I know a bit of what to expect. Do you think I should bring with treats and his ball to the lesson?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The dog has to be introduced to the collar so they first understand how to turn off the stim. How this is done depends on the methodology of the trainer. I tend to follow Lou's program for the most part. The level used depends on the dog and should be no more than what they feel as irritating in most situations with the option to increase the stim when the dog is in a higher level of drive (like when a rabbit pops out of the grass). 

There is no need for the dog to wear the collar for several weeks before introducing it, but if you plan on needing it, the dog should wear it the entire time you are out and about. No grabbing it and putting it on because the dog has started to ignore you. That is how dogs become collar wise.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Ah jeez that's such a good point I didn't even think about... same thing we did with the prong collar :headbang: Do you think 4 days wearing it without stimuli would be sufficient? Our appointment with the trainer is Wednesday and he's very busy it seems so I'm not keen on rescheduling. That's exactly my reason for using it too, I don't plan on using a e collar for any other reasons he has no bad habits.


Taking your time pays off. If you use it too soon the dog my get collar-smart. They are so clever. i suspect Deja to be collar smart unfortunately. Talk to your trainer and see if the advice makes sense.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Taking your time pays off. If you use it too soon the dog my get collar-smart. They are so clever. i suspect Deja to be collar smart unfortunately. Talk to your trainer and see if the advice makes sense.


I'm curious why does it actually matter if the dog becomes "collar smart"? I only ever plan on using it when he is off leash in the woods and i'm never going to hike in the woods with him without it. He doesn't seem like the type to blow me off at home since he isn't used to wearing one at home anyways and he's very biddable. Do they become more of a butt head after wearing an e collar?
I put it on him to let him get used to it and he didn't mind at all, it probably feels a lot like his regular flat collar to him. On a side note is there supposed to be so much extra strap material once it's buckled?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Collar wise generally means won't obey without it, there's plenty of ways to avoid that. They aren't dumb, they know whats on their neck and what it does. For the most part, its like anything else you use. Focus on the behavior and when it becomes solid and willing.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Collar wise generally means won't obey without it, there's plenty of ways to avoid that. They aren't dumb, they know whats on their neck and what it does. For the most part, its like anything else you use. Focus on the behavior and when it becomes solid and willing.


I understand what collar wise means, I am just asking if he is always wearing it 100% of the time while hiking off leash in the woods why does it even matter if he won't obey without it? Because he would never be without it. He has had extensive training to fall back on at home, on leash, in public etc. no bad habits so i'm not worried about that and that is not what his e collar will be used for.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

To me it matters because the dog that won't obey without it, at some point isn't going to with it.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> To me it matters because the dog that won't obey without it, at some point isn't going to with it.


Ah okay got it :thumbup:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've noticed the dogs notice more when you are putting the collar on/off than when it is on- just like use we notice a sensation when we put on a watch or something but then forget we are wearing it, it's physiological, we stop noticing a stimulus like clothes we are wearing that because it's a waste of energy.

So I make no big deal about putting on/off the collars, but do it a few times a day when I am starting out training- and then don't use the collars. I so rarely do use the collars these days, I don't think the dogs have made the connection. 

But putting the collars on/off several times a day can help with the dog becoming collar wise.

A good trainer should tell you all this. I follow pretty much Larry Krohn's book when it comes to e-collar training- although I did most of my training before the book came out using a combo of the best advice I could find (Dodds, Ellis, Balabanov, trainers who I know) there are some specifics with weaning the dog off the e-collar and also the conditioning part that I really like in the book - such as making sure you use the shock just before a command and also just after, and how to determine levels, and nitty gritty things like that. 

Before going to a "trainer" make sure you read up on e-collar training and how it is done, so that you can determine if the trainer knows his stuff or not, because many trainers do not.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deja only wears it when and where I can expect wildlife. It is my emergency break. She is nicely obedient with or without the collar otherwise. I just don't want to take any chances that she comes back with a fawn or is killed by its mother or a car. No way has she gotten "stubborn" or ignored commands.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga is necklace smart. The controller comes on a clip on long strap you wear around your neck so hands free. She sees that on me, even comes up to smell it. She Knows.








Since she wears the collar all the time, it is the controller she is wise to. When I come out with it, its game on. She still obeys anyway, not sure collar wise is a bad thing here. She has the collar in case she MUST be veered off of game or livestock. Its like insurance. Also, because of the tone you can get her attention and give hand commands even if she is 5 football fields away.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

For my guy, 35 gets the job done if it is a high attention thing typical is 28 on the 1900s. I only use it for when he use to throttle our little pit, and when ignoring the leave it command. Oh, and stealing food from the kids. Basically. blatantly doing wrong lol 

As for trying it on yourself, WHERE did you put it? lol We have bare thin skins on our necks, so we will feel a certain level more than a furry collared thick necked dog. For the record in my palm I can tolerate up to 25 on my neck. It was after a few glasses of wine too...


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Whenever she is outside she has the collar on. When I take her someplace or we go do some training run throughs (stuff she knows) I have the controller on the necklace. The rest of the time its in my pocket, just in case she goes after a sounder of wild hogs or something. Its better to have and not need than need and not have.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Comet, to see what setting for a furry necked dog set it on lowest and see how he reacts. Does he lower his head and lick his lips? Does he flick an ear? If not, go up a setting until he shows he feels it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CometDog said:


> For my guy, 35 gets the job done if it is a high attention thing typical is 28 on the 1900s. I only use it for when he use to throttle our little pit, and when ignoring the leave it command. Oh, and stealing food from the kids. Basically. blatantly doing wrong lol
> 
> .


You really want to be careful here. Don't make him think being close to the kids or the other dog triggers a stim.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> You really want to be careful here. Don't make him think being close to the kids or the other dog triggers a stim.


Heard that, and I agree. It is well timed and under the guidance of a trainer. He is constantly with the other dogs and kids in positive situations. He knows why the stim and it has pretty much quickly extinguished those behaviors. He is definitely a little collar smart though. He will still do those things at a lower level (wont bite the pit's neck as hard as he use to)if he thinks I am not looking. He wont do it at all if I am in the room. Plus, he doesn't steal it from their hands. He waits until they get up for a glass of water or something. He has sneak genes for sure.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

So here's something then... we never "got him used to" his prong collar. We just put it on with his trainer and then that was that, yet if I put a flat collar on him he still heels nicely and doesn't pull. Actually at this point i don't really see much of a need for the prong anymore for him. But he was never wary of the collar despite me not desensitizing him to it, he has always been indifferent towards it and acts the same as if I put his flat collar on him. Is the prong different from the E collar in that sense? Or did you guys also do this process with your prongs?

I trust our trainer 100%, he trains Orlandos police dogs and knows his stuff.... I've seen him really turn around some crazy messed up dogs. He has always been gentle and fair with my dogs, and his advice has always made sense. I was just curious and a little worried, but now I know what to expect!

I also just realized I misspoke, I didn't purchase the 1900, mine is a dogtra 2300 per my trainers recommendation.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

CometDog said:


> Heard that, and I agree. It is well timed and under the guidance of a trainer. He is constantly with the other dogs and kids in positive situations. He knows why the stim and it has pretty much quickly extinguished those behaviors. He is definitely a little collar smart though. He will still do those things at a lower level (wont bite the pit's neck as hard as he use to)if he thinks I am not looking. He wont do it at all if I am in the room. Plus, he doesn't steal it from their hands. He waits until they get up for a glass of water or something. He has sneak genes for sure.


I've seen this done with my aunts rottie, she never took the time to actually train the dog and instead took the lazy route and shocks it for everything 24/7 in the house. Stealing food, chasing the cat, growling at people... it is a disaster. The dog is very biddable and has so much potential to learn, I feel like most of the times these issues can all be easily resolved with positive training methods, time, and patience. I have never had to use an E collar to train my dogs to behave indoors or out on the town, my dogs never counter surf, never throttle other animals and never steal food regardless if I am there or not. This is why I was so hesitant in the first place to use this type of collar on my dog.. the tool can be abused too easily. _With great power comes great responsibility?_ Our only reason for buying this E collar is to give him freedom off leash hiking while still keeping him safe in case of an emergency... after all he is still an independent minded animal with thoughts and desires.. not a little robot.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> So here's something then... we never "got him used to" his prong collar. We just put it on with his trainer and then that was that, yet if I put a flat collar on him he still heels nicely and doesn't pull. Actually at this point i don't really see much of a need for the prong anymore for him. But he was never wary of the collar despite me not desensitizing him to it, he has always been indifferent towards it and acts the same as if I put his flat collar on him. Is the prong different from the E collar in that sense? Or did you guys also do this process with your prongs?
> 
> I trust our trainer 100%, he trains Orlandos police dogs and knows his stuff.... I've seen him really turn around some crazy messed up dogs. He has always been gentle and fair with my dogs, and his advice has always made sense. I was just curious and a little worried, but now I know what to expect!
> 
> I also just realized I misspoke, I didn't purchase the 1900, mine is a dogtra 2300 per my trainers recommendation.


The prong always has a direct connection to you. The leash. They know its you popping them. E is disconnected and a stimulus they don't understand. In some ways that can be good, its not what you'd call personal. That can also be the problem though, the dog not making the correct associations.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have a 2300 (and an old 1200). I like the 2300 better than the 1900 except that the battery life is AWFUL and it required a new battery after only 18 months.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> I've noticed the dogs notice more when you are putting the collar on/off than when it is on- just like use we notice a sensation when we put on a watch or something but then forget we are wearing it, it's physiological, we stop noticing a stimulus like clothes we are wearing that because it's a waste of energy.
> 
> So I make no big deal about putting on/off the collars, but do it a few times a day when I am starting out training- and then don't use the collars. I so rarely do use the collars these days, I don't think the dogs have made the connection.
> 
> But putting the collars on/off several times a day can help with the dog becoming collar wise.


That makes sense. I was told that the prongs can leave sores when the dog wears the collar for too long periods at a time. How long at a time can you let them wear it safely, even when you are not working with the dog? I have the long prongs but it seems like the collar is too tight for longer wear.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> That makes sense. I was told that the prongs can leave sores when the dog wears the collar for too long periods at a time. How long at a time can you let them wear it safely, even when you are not working with the dog? I have the long prongs but it seems like the collar is too tight for longer wear.


Pinch collars are not substitutes for a regular flat collar or fur saver....they should be used for training or supervised activities like going for walks....just like you don’t let the dog have unsupervised access to training balls, tugs, etc.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> wolfy dog said:
> 
> 
> > That makes sense. I was told that the prongs can leave sores when the dog wears the collar for too long periods at a time. How long at a time can you let them wear it safely, even when you are not working with the dog? I have the long prongs but it seems like the collar is too tight for longer wear.
> ...


I agree, we only ever put the prong collar on to go for a walk. I'd be too worried about a dog wearing it in the house anyways and it getting caught on a crate door or something like that. Usually Gandalf just runs around naked lol


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Pinch collars are not substitutes for a regular flat collar or fur saver....they should be used for training or supervised activities like going for walks....just like you don’t let the dog have unsupervised access to training balls, tugs, etc.


With 'prongs" I meant the 2 prongs from the Ecollar, not the prong collar. Can you let me know your take?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The E-collar should be re-positioned every couple of hours to avoid causing irritation at the contact points.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I just noticed today his brand new never used E collar that we charged for 4 hours the other day is already blinking red indicating that the battery is low? Is this pretty typical for the dogtra 2300's? We haven't even used it yet lol...


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I've seen this done with my aunts rottie, she never took the time to actually train the dog and instead took the lazy route and shocks it for everything 24/7 in the house. Stealing food, chasing the cat, growling at people... it is a disaster. The dog is very biddable and has so much potential to learn, I feel like most of the times these issues can all be easily resolved with positive training methods, time, and patience. I have never had to use an E collar to train my dogs to behave indoors or out on the town, my dogs never counter surf, never throttle other animals and never steal food regardless if I am there or not. This is why I was so hesitant in the first place to use this type of collar on my dog.. the tool can be abused too easily. _With great power comes great responsibility?_ Our only reason for buying this E collar is to give him freedom off leash hiking while still keeping him safe in case of an emergency... after all he is still an independent minded animal with thoughts and desires.. not a little robot.



Sounds like your aunt had a lot of issues with her dog beyond choice of collar, and she was probably making it worse by overdoing it and poor timing. Since that can be a well known issue...I use a trainer.. ..There is no laziness here. We have invested a lot of time and money into following a very well known trainers advice and program. He (and other sources I read)is fine with using an e collar for correction when the dog fully understands he is being disobedient but does it anyway. He has largely stopped doing it after a very short time and after other methods did not impact him. My other dog has his own issues too but I'd never use a collar on him. Different dogs, different temperaments. I have had plenty of dogs in my life. Only 2 were counter surfers.I do not correct him with it for anything else beyond those two persistent behaviors, that..like I said have been nearly extinguished and as of today we have gone 7 days with him losing interest in being disobedient in that department . I have not used it all for OB training, his recall is great. He does not chase anything, his focus on me is very good. My other dog will never be trusted off lead, and a correction collar of any sort just makes it worse for him. He needs positive all the way and even then I won't trust him off lead. Poor inherent impulse control and fear issues, poor dog.

About the battery- I had bought a Dogtra Arc that did the same thing. I returned it for a 1900s and no problems. Did you get it on Amazon or another place? I got mine on Amazon and there were a few reviews that got bum collars..also a lot of knockoffs both for that and for Herm Sprenger collars. One thing that was mentioned in poor reviews, if it is very old stock, years old, it could have charging issues. The ARC product isn't that old though but the 1900 has been around a long while? 

My 1900s lasts for days after a 2hr charge. I liked the low profile design of the Arc, but he ignored the stim until like 70, and I just wasn't comfortable with that number in case it was a design/contact/function issue that could suddenly make contact fully, know what I mean? I did read it was for mild mannered not stubborn dogs (of which he is not). But, since the battery didn't charge maybe the whole unit wasn't good. So no chances and I returned it asap. Too bad, was nicer looking than the house arrest looking models lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, it shouldn't be doing that unless you left it on. I would contact Dogtra.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

lhczth said:


> No, it shouldn't be doing that unless you left it on. I would contact Dogtra.


Oh I hope it isn't broken! How do you turn off the collar receiver ? I see the transmitter has an off and on button but I don't see anything like that on the collar.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

the 1900 should have a power button on the collar receiver on the bottom side opposite the light.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

See the red dots, one on the transmitter and one on top of the unit? Touch them to each other.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> See the red dots, one on the transmitter and one on top of the unit? Touch them to each other.


Brilliant, LOL thank you ! :blush:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

How were you able to turn it on?


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

My dogtra 1900s has buttons sorry. I did get a new Educator that has the red dots which took the manual to figure out how to turn on/off :/


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> How were you able to turn it on?


My engineer husband turned it on and fiddled with it lol. I'm not tech savvy at all... :grin2:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you left it on a couple days, then used it on cont. that could be why the batteries ran down. Charge them again till the light turns green, then see how long they hold up.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Just curious if you don't mind sharing what your first lesson was like and if you will have more sessions.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> Just curious if you don't mind sharing what your first lesson was like and if you will have more sessions.


Sure! So our lesson was Wednesday, first my trainer went over all the specifics and parts of the collar and he installed our 3/4 inch contact points however he told me to get 1 inch since Gandalfs fur is so thick and long. Then we put the collar on Gandalf and he showed me to position it high behind the ears with the box on the side and to fit it tightly since the contact points were so short. Then we started doing some formal heeling with the prong and leash and every time I were to give a leash correction I would also hit vibrate, we did this in a circle and then counter clock wise ending on a sit with a vibrate. We practiced this several times , he explained it was to help the dog make the connection between the e collar and my commands. Then we let Gandalf off leash and practiced the same exercises with just the e collar and he did great! We practiced some recalls, any hesitation he advised to vibrate and if he ignored then nick and finally continuous if he still didn't come, which he didn't have that problem. Oh before we did that he also tested to see the lowest level of stim that Gandalf could feel and that was around a 20, although this may change with better contact points. Overall he said he was very impressed with Gandalf, apparently he is a perfect candidate for the e collar, well trained already, listens well and very smart and intuitive. He said to continue these drills for a week everyday ... my trainer advised never relying on solely the e collar for off leash as it is not fail proof. He recommended everyone to always use a long line as well as some dogs if driven enough can blow through even the highest stim. My own personal philosophy is we normally hike in low density areas away from roads and traffic , I want my dog to live and have freedom. It is a risk we always take that I feel is worth the reward.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Interesting. I wonder if your trainer has anything to do with Kelly Blackwell. Sounds kind of like how she does it starting with the pager. And she is in FL


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Interesting. I wonder if your trainer has anything to do with Kelly Blackwell. Sounds kind of like how she does it starting with the pager. And she is in FL


I'm not sure, my trainer is Ed Reyes he works with Orlandos police dogs. He said Gandalf responds very well to voice and is very biddable so there wasn't much of a need for any high stimulation. I was glad he didn't suggest 127 on my little softie lol! He isn't that type of trainer anyways. He wouldn't really answer my questions about hiking completely off leash with no long line (understandably... I see his point completely but I just have a different view) so I would like to know how you do it when your dogs see game, loose dogs, etc. How comfortable are you guys relying on just an e collar? We did a bit of hiking this week with the collar and a long line trailing and he did good, didn't stray when people and dogs passed on the trail and had a lightning fast recall no need even for the vibrate. Do you guys do refreshers every once in a while on a dog that generally requires no corrections just so he remembers what that stim means?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't know, he may have meant that you just can't let the dog off too soon. If you let them off too soon and they do blow through the stim it can be a big problem, in my opinion. I like to encounter whatever I am going to encounter and deal with it successfully with e collar and line as backup, and then with nothing but voice, before i let them loose. 

I stalked deer in my forest for this purpose and my dog stayed on a long line a little longer than I wanted because after we were ready of course we could not find any. But we finally did find the deer and do the proof and I let him off after that. I think all told he lost his privileges for around a month.

I do believe that you can get the type of reliability you want with the dog completely off leash. I am the type of person, I put the collar on my dogs every time we hike just because. I haven't proofed for EVERYTHING out there because we haven't come across everything out there...who knows. I'd way rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I don't know when the last time I pushed the button on my boy. But he still wears it.

My old male who was my super killer is a good case in point about what you can get from e collar training. We trained and trained and trained for the day that something failed and a goat was in front of him by accident. That day came twice and both times he recalled to me on voice command only and did not kill the goat.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

The night Inga went after the sounder of hogs it took a size 5 and 6 (out of 7, Sportdog) to bring her back in the dark. Her prey drive was so high by then thats what it took. Ordinarily just a NO for looking at daytime deer works. If she is not paying attention I give her a vibrate or 1 for disobeying a known command. You want to nip dangerous willfull disobedience in the bud.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't know, he may have meant that you just can't let the dog off too soon. If you let them off too soon and they do blow through the stim it can be a big problem, in my opinion. I like to encounter whatever I am going to encounter and deal with it successfully with e collar and line as backup, and then with nothing but voice, before i let them loose.
> 
> I stalked deer in my forest for this purpose and my dog stayed on a long line a little longer than I wanted because after we were ready of course we could not find any. But we finally did find the deer and do the proof and I let him off after that. I think all told he lost his privileges for around a month.
> 
> ...


Im not worried about wildlife, Gandalf has never failed a recall on deer, rabbits or baby hogs. Even when he was 6 months old he recalled beautifully off a herd of deer. It's the dogs I am most concerned about because he loves to play. He hasn't had an issue in months but you never know and it's difficult to proof off of other people's dogs because of legalities... leash laws... etc. and I know of no one with a friendly dog i would want to proof him on. he's been on a long line for months now and we've encountered dogs and he's done well but I've always held the line just in case. Now is the time I guess to hold my breath and take the plunge. I did it today and he just trotted by the dog growling and barking at him on the end of it's leash. I still worry though. I'd hate for him to break it and run up to an aggressive dog.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Thanks for sharing. Gandalf is such a good young dog helps that you are a great handler. A suggestion can the trainer you met with help to set up controlled environments with maybe his personal dogs or dogs he knows to help you proof? 
I've recently met with a trainer a major part of my motivation was help with controlled distraction teaching then proofing. The trainer I have has a great mature dog plus dogs he is working on a board and train. 
This will be a huge help for my lack of experience. I kind of hit a point where I felt I've gone as far as I can and needed help. My pup Apex is super dog friendly, no matter how hard I try I just can't compare.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> Thanks for sharing. Gandalf is such a good young dog helps that you are a great handler. A suggestion can the trainer you met with help to set up controlled environments with maybe his personal dogs or dogs he knows to help you proof?
> I've recently met with a trainer a major part of my motivation was help with controlled distraction teaching then proofing. The trainer I have has a great mature dog plus dogs he is working on a board and train.
> This will be a huge help for my lack of experience. I kind of hit a point where I felt I've gone as far as I can and needed help. My pup Apex is super dog friendly, no matter how hard I try I just can't compare.


Aw thanks lol I'm still learning everyday with him. I'm not sure id feel comfortable setting up something like that with our trainer, all his dogs are very serious. I don't know what he does as far as dog socialization goes but I don't think it would go down well if Gandalf failed his recall even if they were muzzled. Unfortunately the trainer I do like for proofing with other dogs is anti e collar & prong.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Surely your trainer has access to some friendly, safe dogs? Perhaps could put you in a semi private lesson with someone else working on similar stuff and use each other's dog for distraction?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Surely your trainer has access to some friendly, safe dogs? Perhaps could put you in a semi private lesson with someone else working on similar stuff and use each other's dog for distraction?


It couldn't hurt for me to ask I guess. I know at the other club not my trainers but they mingle occasionally they are strict from when you bring your pup home no interactions at all with other dogs. Different club though so it may be different, I just assumed. During training most the dogs are muzzled and I see zero interaction.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Also how exactly do you proof with the e collar on and avoid making your dog dog aggressive? That's what I'm afraid of too, say he does blow it and I vibrate and he doesn't listen. Would a 20 stim be enough to ruin him and associate the shock with other dogs? He LOVES other dogs and we take him to a play group with the other trainer often, I also plan on getting another dog some day so I don't want to change him completely. I figure he is capable, he knows when on leash to ignore other dogs completely so how do I make that association with the e collar as well?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> It couldn't hurt for me to ask I guess. I know at the other club not my trainers but they mingle occasionally they are strict from when you bring your pup home no interactions at all with other dogs. Different club though so it may be different, I just assumed. During training most the dogs are muzzled and I see zero interaction.


So obviously this guy does pet dog training unrelated to an IPO club, so I was thinking that perhaps he has another pet client he could pair you with or maybe someone else's pet that is boarding or other that he could help you set up the scenario you think your dog needs. Even if he borrowed a friend's pet dog? Just brainstorming. It isn't like Gandalf is dangerous or this is a dangerous or difficult assignment!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Also how exactly do you proof with the e collar on and avoid making your dog dog aggressive? That's what I'm afraid of too, say he does blow it and I vibrate and he doesn't listen. Would a 20 stim be enough to ruin him and associate the shock with other dogs? He LOVES other dogs and we take him to a play group with the other trainer often, I also plan on getting another dog some day so I don't want to change him completely. I figure he is capable, he knows when on leash to ignore other dogs completely so how do I make that association with the e collar as well?


Isn't your trainer discussing these issues with you? 

My opinion is: the better the dog understands the collar, the less likely they are to make a wrong association. Also, the farther the other thing (person, dog etc) is when you stim the less likely to make a wrong association, usually. Calling your dog back when he is running toward another dog with 100 ft in between them and calling your dog out of a full contact play session are two totally different things.

So, I do as much groundwork in more neutral environments as I can to give the dog a solid understanding of the collar without the chance to make a superstitious association with something in the environment. Then when/if you use the collar in the presence of another dog or person the dog already knows the collar is from you- a reinforcement of a command, and there is no superstitious association.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Exactly, it is all about the proofing and building communication of agree (yes) and disagree (no) with the dog. Once you build up the e-collar foundation, you can call them off anything and they won't associate the sensation with the dog/person or other things around them. That where proofing comes in- and also making sure the dog completely understands the language of the collar.

I disagree with training with vibrate, for a bunch of reasons, but to each their own. 

Your trainer can explain this to you in more detail.

I have seen many dogs that are highly reliable, up to 99.9% reliable off leash. It's all about that foundation. I only leave that room for 0.01% because dogs aren't robots and stuff happens.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Once the dog is trained, I almost never actually use the shocking function of the collar in the proximity of an uncontrolled distraction. The dog is trained, he or she doesn't need reminders. I will keep up the training, on occasion, but in a controlled way.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

So do both of you start out with high stim and not train with vibrate? I'm actually not so sure how much my trainer works with "pet dogs", I only got to know him through training my last shepherd in schutzhund and since I already knew him, and knew he uses e collars I brought Gandalf for the lesson. It's a pretty serious club and I don't think your average dog owner generally goes there. I didn't get my questions answered much about hikes and other dogs because he doesn't use a e collar for this purpose. All the dogs I know personally are either dog aggressive or too old to interact with Gandalf much, I'd be worried about someone getting hurt down the line. It wouldn't be the same either proofing at the training facility since he knows that's for training, the trail where we hike would be ideal but no one will want to drive out there. Just like he goes to puppy play day and anticipates he gets to play with his friends. He knows play day area is different from walking on the street. It seems to me like Gandalf is already starting to make the association with the collar, when I buzz he looks right up at me every time. He sure isn't dangerous (here's him and his friends lol) but im worried about him running into the wrong dog. I need the practice too because I'm still fumbling with the remote. I think he would recall off a dog on a hike but I'm just not 100% sure because it's never really happened so that makes me nervous.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

All his friends owners are also anti prong, anti e collar so not much I can do there either. He's not even allowed in the play group unless he has a harness on.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Maybe you should try to find a different trainer who can help you with this specific scenario? Check IACP and see if they have a trainer search feature?

Otherwise the only other thing I can think of would be to try to recruit safe dog volunteers to casually bump into somewhere to proof your recalls. All else fails you keep him on the long line and wait for life to happen...wait for some dog to really come along to call him off.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> So do both of you start out with high stim and not train with vibrate? I'm actually not so sure how much my trainer works with "pet dogs", I only got to know him through training my last shepherd in schutzhund and since I already knew him, and knew he uses e collars I brought Gandalf for the lesson. It's a pretty serious club and I don't think your average dog owner generally goes there. I didn't get my questions answered much about hikes and other dogs because he doesn't use a e collar for this purpose. All the dogs I know personally are either dog aggressive or too old to interact with Gandalf much, I'd be worried about someone getting hurt down the line. It wouldn't be the same either proofing at the training facility since he knows that's for training, the trail where we hike would be ideal but no one will want to drive out there. Just like he goes to puppy play day and anticipates he gets to play with his friends. He knows play day area is different from walking on the street. It seems to me like Gandalf is already starting to make the association with the collar, when I buzz he looks right up at me every time. He sure isn't dangerous (here's him and his friends lol) but im worried about him running into the wrong dog. I need the practice too because I'm still fumbling with the remote. I think he would recall off a dog on a hike but I'm just not 100% sure because it's never really happened so that makes me nervous.


I personally never use the vibe in the beginning, but no, I do not start out with "high stim". I'm always looking for the number that's just right for getting the dog to respond snappy snappy with no side effects. Not too low so I'm nagging or he's ignoring, not too high that the dog is showing stress signals, yelping, I don't like them to startle. I've had good luck with very little or no side effects working in that range...ultimately I want them to think I have an invisible leash that I can give them an unpleasant little pop with if they blow me off and once they get that idea through their heads they usually are never thinking about blowing me off anymore.

I do sometimes use vibe down the road as a neutral reminder but the thing about vibe is-- it draws a lot of attention to the collar so it makes it harder to wean off the collar. Now, I don't really care about that because I am fine with them just wearing it all the time when we hike on the off chance we get into some scenario we have never before and have not trained for and I need it.

One other thing about vibe is if you are struggling to work the remote it's one more thing you have to keep straight---which finger on which button and which button does what--and if that's tough for you then eliminate the vibe because you definitely don't need to use it to accomplish your goals. 

I am happy to say today I came down from a walk with my dogs and my boy was playing with a toy and he rolled it down the driveway and then ran to get it which meant he went out toward the road (long driveway). It is a rarely and slowly traveling dirt road so I'm barely paying any attention to him. Then I see him stand up tall and I realize there is someone going by on a bicycle. This literally happens like once a year, we see someone go by and I think he's seen a bike on our road once before in his whole life and he was on a leash. So I call him immediately because he's down there way too close for comfort to this bike passing the end of our driveway-- whole bunch of stuff I couldn't have really prepared for and I didn't even have time to grab the remote that was around my neck, and he came right in to me like such a good boy. You definitely can't afford to not have control of a big, wolfy looking dog in my opinion. Makes neighbors not like you and nobody wants that 

Gandalf looks like a very happy boy.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yup. I've been told my dogs look like "timberwolves". You got to have control! Most of the time, at least 90%, I only have time to yell for my dogs, and not to fumble with e-collar. Been there with a biker unexpectedly appearing. Also, a hiker coming out of nowhere on a remote trail. Always good to have a verbal cue, first and foremost. E is great, to lay foundation and consistency, but not for emergencies. 

Also, my dogs just wear the e-collars when we are out. It is no big deal for me, or them.

Here's the thing- I've been where you are, Gandalf, with trying to find a trainer who can help with training dogs specifically for off leash hiking. It is very difficult to find a trainer who "specializes" in that, and is also familiar with e-collar and with the drives and behaviors of GSDs/shepherds. You go to an IPO trainer and few actually walk their dogs off leash on hiking trails regularly, for a variety of good reasons, but it's rare to find a sport trainer who also takes their dog out doing "pet" stuff real often. And then, as you mentioned, the "pet" trainers tend to dislike e-collars, prong collars, etc. and try to be positive only. Which doesn't pan out so well with many shepherd-y dogs. 

I ended up just getting out and training, with a good understanding of e-collar training and training in general. Again, Larry Krohn's book pretty much sums up what I did for training, but there is also stuff I just learned through educated trial/error.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Not sure if it's the white fluffy dog thing or what but everyone that sees Gandalf just wants to hug him. A good portion of our HOA meeting last Sunday included everyone's opinons on how cute he is lol. I'm surprised even on hikes in the woods he gets nothing but good comments... very different from when I owned a sable. Gandalfs been exposed to so many things, all sorts of wildlife, we even roller blade a bit on the trail and he's comfortable passing bikes, skateboards, other dogs, etc. I would hope he'd be like yours cowboys and recall off a bike in the road but I do realize he's still very young and that prey drive kicks in! Sometimes I forget that because he grew up and matured so quickly. I think finding a trainer is out of the question unless my schutzhund trainer might have a friendly dog. We're going to keep searching for options but none of them look very promising. Anyways... anyone reading this thread near Orlando and want to make some $ walking your dog? Lol!


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Not sure if it's the white fluffy dog thing or what but everyone that sees Gandalf just wants to hug him. A good portion of our HOA meeting last Sunday included everyone's opinons on how cute he is lol. I'm surprised even on hikes in the woods he gets nothing but good comments... very different from when I owned a sable. Gandalfs been exposed to so many things, all sorts of wildlife, we even roller blade a bit on the trail and he's comfortable passing bikes, skateboards, other dogs, etc. I would hope he'd be like yours cowboys and recall off a bike in the road but I do realize he's still very young and that prey drive kicks in! Sometimes I forget that because he grew up and matured so quickly. I think finding a trainer is out of the question unless my schutzhund trainer might have a friendly dog. We're going to keep searching for options but none of them look very promising. Anyways... anyone reading this thread near Orlando and want to make some $ walking your dog? Lol!


It’s because he is white! Haha. People are generally pretty scared of 57lb kona LOL.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't know if he usually has that same look on his face like he seems to in most of his pics on here. But to me he definitely has a friendly and easy going look. I know you have said he likes people so he probably looks at them with that expression.

My white dog does not look at strangers with that expression. My black and tan girl likes people and if they stare at her she assumes it's because she is pretty. Friendly people seem to just get her energy. 

My boy on the other hand has energy and expression that is saying why the heck are you looking at me? Don't you dare touch me, I don't know you that well. People clearly seem to pick up on this too, I can see the different way strangers respond to the two of them.

Granted there are plenty of dense idiots like the guy who tried to reach through the window of my truck to pet the boy. He put his hand partly in the window and said "can I pet your dog?" I know what the boy thinks of strangers around the truck. He was looking at this guy very hard.

I said no. The guys says "no!?" like he just can't believe I said he can't reach into the cab to pet my dog. Then I have to add "and you really better get your arm out of the window." 

I am glad my dog didn't bite him just for what he did but I wouldn't have been shocked if he got bit if he had truly tried to reach in and pet him.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Sorry, off topic but can someone sue you if they reach inside your vehicle and then get bitten? There would have to be witnesses to prove one way or another and who hangs around in a parking lot? They get in their cars and drive off. Thats one reason (the other is all the dog hair) that Inga rides in the back of truck in a kennel cage. No way could someone be bitten unless they reached through the wire.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Sorry, off topic but can someone sue you if they reach inside your vehicle and then get bitten? There would have to be witnesses to prove one way or another and who hangs around in a parking lot? They get in their cars and drive off. Thats one reason (the other is all the dog hair) that Inga rides in the back of truck in a kennel cage. No way could someone be bitten unless they reached through the wire.



I have no idea. I was sitting with my dog and he was behind the front seats in my cab. The front windows were open. So the guy came up to my passenger window so the passenger seat was between him and the dog. So the guy would have to really reach to get his arm back to where my dog was. The way I have my truck set up if the front windows are open the dog is not within reasonable reach of a person at the window. Chances are I could have intercepted in some way if he had tried to ignore me and get in the truck but honestly, if he had tried to ignore me and get in the truck I probably want the dog to do something because a normal okay person does not try to reach or get into a stranger's vehicle when they have been asked/told not to.

I do have a small wire barrier between my two front seats which makes it harder but not impossible for the dog to come forward. It comes about to his chest if he is sitting upright in the middle behind the front seats. 
He can get over it if he really wants to, and I left it that way on purpose. 

If I ever leave the dogs alone in the truck the windows are up and it's locked, or else he is in the cap in his locked aluminum crate.

I think the chance of my dog shooting out the back of the cab to nail somebody at the window is super slim to nil...but I don't mind occasionally trying to scare people into behaving because I didn't like this guy, he was way too casual about invading my space, being offended that I wouldn't let him invade my space more...the whole thing felt like bad news


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I'm glad you had some kind of barrier but what about other people? Someone reaching in the window and dog in front seat bites them? It could happen. And if there were no witnesses available they could say the dog jumped out and bit them. Some people need shock collars. Don't Pet! (reaches in anyway) ZAP.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I'm glad you had some kind of barrier but what about other people? Someone reaching in the window and dog in front seat bites them? It could happen. And if there were no witnesses available they could say the dog jumped out and bit them. Some people need shock collars. Don't Pet! (reaches in anyway) ZAP.


No idea. People are so dumb and lawsuit happy nothing would really surprise me


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> Yup. I've been told my dogs look like "timberwolves". You got to have control! Most of the time, at least 90%, I only have time to yell for my dogs, and not to fumble with e-collar. Been there with a biker unexpectedly appearing. Also, a hiker coming out of nowhere on a remote trail. Always good to have a verbal cue, first and foremost. E is great, to lay foundation and consistency, but not for emergencies.
> 
> Also, my dogs just wear the e-collars when we are out. It is no big deal for me, or them.
> 
> ...


What do they do thats a specialty? I look at obedience as obedience, and I look to voice control same as you. Beyond those, what's specific to hiking for a trainer to do?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Steve- you do have a point. OB is OB is OB. I agree.

It's been awhile now, but back when I was looking for help with off leash training with my dogs, in all honesty, IPO peeps were like "eh... we don't take our dogs out on public trails off leash, too much risk, and we can't control what other dogs do". 

Yeah, obedience is obedience, but hiking presents unique situations, compared to IPO field or suburban playground training off leash, or city walking on leash. Distractions are quite uncontrolled, and are bound to occur. Plus, there are certain "avoidance" behaviors I train - porcupines, snowmobiles, and in a different way other people and dogs- that are quite different than how I'd work a dog that was only going to experience a suburban or city life. 

I learned through trial and error and then really educated myself on dog training with the help of a mentor. At the beginning, it was more error, but while I'm still learning, I mostly know my stuff.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

To me the only "specialty" is the set of distractions. Pretty similar to what Muskeg said. Out don't think it's out of line to think a pet dog trainer could talk you through or walk you through the scenario you think you will face etc. It's not always a no brainer for pet owners to apply certain things they learn in a controlled environment to a less controlled environment 

Such as preventing superstitious associations with other dogs if calling off dogs is the only issue.

I would hope in a private lesson a pet dog trainer would be able to walk with a person and their dog somewhere to assist them in dealing with their actual issue--and help them set up scenarios that are either the exact scenario they are dealing with or the closest equivalent. For instance trainers working with people with dog reactive dogs may provide a calm dog as a decoy to begin working on and may set up "encounters" on a sidewalk somewhere. Because if you don't get out and encounter the situation the way it will happen in real life and master it then what's the point of training.

Gandalf are you still training your dog to be a service dog? The one thing about e collars is sometimes a service dog needs to be able to do intelligent disobedience, and you don't want to over do anything with the e collar to preserve the dog's free will and creativity


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> To me the only "specialty" is the set of distractions. Pretty similar to what Muskeg said. Out don't think it's out of line to think a pet dog trainer could talk you through or walk you through the scenario you think you will face etc. It's not always a no brainer for pet owners to apply certain things they learn in a controlled environment to a less controlled environment
> 
> Such as preventing superstitious associations with other dogs if calling off dogs is the only issue.
> 
> ...


I agree with that completely but most trainers at least here only train in their own closed in indoor facility. One I know of that does not requires your dog be boarded 5 days out of the week with them during the day. The pet dog trainers also refuse to use e collars and prongs and are very narrow minded in their methods. I like a little bit of everything from most trainers, not everyone does it perfect in my opinion and each could learn a thing or two from the other. Yes exactly cowboys I don't want to ruin his freedom and own thought, hes a very intelligent boy and makes good decisions most of the time. I have not had to use any stim practicing so far with the e collar, he has responded great with just my voice and rarely even the vibrate. He is so great on the leash always makes right decisions, if I could just translate that over to the e collar..


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I've been doing the formal heeling exercises with the e collar, leash and then no leash and practicing recalls in the front yard and he's been doing really great, hadn't had to even really use the vibrate feature much. My trainer said do it for a week. So tomorrow will be exactly a week... so today I decided to take him on the local trail with his long line and practice. We did our usual heel sequence, recall practice and then started to hike. A smelly bush caught his interest and I did the normal recall and he didn't listen so I vibrate, nothing recall again, then nick recall again, nothing, and then recall again constant and finally he responds. Same thing happened when we played ball and he didn't bring it. Which is NOT like him! Normally he bolts back as fast as he can to bring the ball so I throw it again. I feel like the e collar might be confusing him or something? Or he is waiting for the stim to respond? Am I doing something wrong here? Or should I take a step back and I shouldn't have introduced distractions so quickly. It's just kind of odd because his obedience seemed to be much better with no collar on at all, we've practiced recalls under distractions and hes been good without the e collar which is why I thought it was time to bring it into the equation and give him freedom. Is he too young for e collar training? All of the instances where he ignored he was engaged in sniffing, he has been sniffing a lot more lately and marking like crazy. May be just an adolescence stage? Every instance passing wildlife, people and dogs he behaved exactly how he should. He did well at the end of the hike and walked past crowds of hikers even an infant someone was carrying without issue, he did a good formal heel past them all and even heard a lot of comments people saying how well trained he was, etc. He had some stomach trouble today so i'm wondering if maybe he just wasn't feeling good... first time in a while he has had stomach problems again. I think it may have been a marrow bone from a new source, it was huge and probably too much for him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah this doesn't sound right

"A smelly bush caught his interest and I did the normal recall and he didn't listen so I vibrate, nothing recall again, then nick recall again, nothing, and then recall again constant and finally he responds. Same thing happened when we played ball and he didn't bring it. Which is NOT like him! Normally he bolts back as fast as he can to bring the ball so I throw it again. I feel like the e collar might be confusing him or something? Or he is waiting for the stim to respond? "

I am a little hesitant to say what I think because I'm not really clear on what your trainer wants you to do and I don't want to muddy the water for you or the dog.

If it were me I would eliminate vibe from the equation. 

Sniffing can be a sign of stress and avoidance. Stress and avoidance can happen with e collar. You'd have to decide if you think it's related to the collar or whatever else.

I've mostly done continuous stim teaching recalls, where you hit the button the instant before you call. But the way I do it if the dog doesn't start moving on their own pretty immediately then I use a line to get them started. Then pretty quickly once they start to get it you start to give them a chance to beat it by responding quickly. So there is never a change for the dog to be standing there not doing anything while you cycle through options.

My boy had the best recall of any dog I'd started on e collar to begin with. He was really really good and fast 99% of the time. I did do the continuous very briefly anyway, knowing he would recall fast and reliable and letting him just see the pattern of the stim going on and off in relation to his actions. Then he progressed quickly to a "pop"--a tap on the continuous button, which I started with long line on a collar and then transferred to e collar, and this is what he gets a chance to beat but if he doesn't move his feet right away he gets the pop. Probably due to how good his recall was to start, I used the stim less in teaching and less in reinforcing than any other dog I've done to achieve the level of reliability I wanted


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Plus are you using nick and continuous on the same number? I almost never use the nick function, if I want it short I just tap the continuous button.

When I have used the nick, I've had to use much higher numbers. I forget what the amount of time the nick is---but really really short, and so my experience has been that whatever number the dogs work on nick is a fair amount higher than continuous, and therefore whatever their nick number is is too high for continuous. Does that make sense? So if the continuous # is okay for the dog they almost wouldn't feel the nick or not enough for it to matter.

Cycling through three different cues with the collar while your dog is just standing there sounds like way too long of a process. Like when you hear people call their dog and they go "fluffy! oh, fluffy! FLUFFY! FLUFFFYYY!!" and maybe the dog has learned not to bother responding until the owner is screaming.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Yeah I'm not entirely sure he's getting it. It's very frustrating... I've never had a dog who doesn't have a fantastic recall. His recall isn't bad... if he's paying attention and most of the time it's like a bullet. He never does a slow meander back to me when he does come, so I have no doubt he understands come. I've done everything right to teach it, I've never punished for coming back, always rewarded with a special treat he never gets any other time and his favorite thing in the world his ball. I throw a god danm party! We've worked on recalls very hard for a long time now. I feel like he's regressing with this training. This evening after a walk I let him off leash in front of the house, normally he walks home (end of a culdesac) but instead he decided to zoomie in the neighbors yard and ignored my recall. Never seen him do that before. Complete wild animal oblivious to the world. A week ago he was perfect. I'm thinking too much freedom too soon... maybe he will never be an off leash dog? Makes me really miss my old dog, never blew a recall in his entire life and I trained him the same exact way. I'm so frustrating I feel like throwing in the towel and sending the e collar back... I just think he's too much of a danger to himself at this point. I'm not sure I understand your explaination either cowboys, you stim but eventually stop stimming? I think the vibrate just confuses him too. He's already learned to just ignore it. My trainer said use vibrate like a warning for the stim coming. He just doesn't care, he's very independent. 

Yes I've been using nick on the same number as continuous and he doesn't notice it on 22. Maybe the contact is bad because it's too short? I agree, it's way too slow and I don't like that he's getting a chance to just ignore it. He NEVER ignored my come before this. Now he's blowing it on a daily basis. I think if I wasn't novice with the device he should have had this down already. He's great on leash so why can't he be great on the e collar?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yeah I'm not entirely sure he's getting it. It's very frustrating... I've never had a dog who doesn't have a fantastic recall. His recall isn't bad... if he's paying attention and most of the time it's like a bullet. He never does a slow meander back to me when he does come, so I have no doubt he understands come. I've done everything right to teach it, I've never punished for coming back, always rewarded with a special treat he never gets any other time and his favorite thing in the world his ball. I feel like he's regressing with this training. This evening after a walk I let him off leash in front of the house, normally he walks home (end of a culdesac) but instead he decided to zoomie in the neighbors yard and ignored my recall. Never seen him do that before. Complete wild animal oblivious to the world. A week ago he was perfect. I'm thinking too much freedom too soon... maybe he will never be an off leash dog? Makes me really miss my old dog, never blew a recall in his entire life and I trained him the same exact way. I'm so frustrating I feel like throwing in the towel and sending the e collar back... I just think he's too much of a danger to himself at this point. I'm not sure I understand your explaination either cowboys, you stim but eventually stop stimming? I think the vibrate just confuses him too. He's already learned to just ignore it. My trainer said use vibrate like a warning for the stim coming. He just doesn't care, he's very independent.
> 
> Yes I've been using nick on the same number as continuous and he doesn't notice it on 22. Maybe the contact is bad because it's too short?


Okay #1 saying he will never be an offleash dog--No, I think that's not a realistic response. He sounds like he was pretty darn good to begin with and is maybe confused, maybe being a bit avoidant or maybe he is not responding the same because you are acting different, fiddling with this thing in your hand you never had before.

Have you already taken him off the long line? How long has he been doing e collar since you started? 

The way I do it with continuous to start is--first you find the # the dog can clearly perceive. Then you press the button an instant before you call, and release the button as soon as the dog has turned all the way around and committed to the recall. If they veer off halfway in you get on the button again and restart. If they don't start moving immediately at the call, they get a gentle pull on a line to get them going. You have to be sure the level of stim is high enough that the line pull doesn't drown it out so to speak.

Does your dog have long contact points and a bungee strap? I looked at that link Steve Strom put up awhile back in this thread and I believe I thought it was pretty spot on for how I do it but probably written/explained better than I do.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Gandalf you said-- "I agree, it's way too slow and I don't like that he's getting a chance to just ignore it. He NEVER ignored my come before this. Now he's blowing it on a daily basis. I think if I wasn't novice with the device he should have had this down already. He's great on leash so why can't he be great on the e collar?"

He totally can be. I have never seen starting e collar result in a significant regression in recall. I do not think that should be the result at all. You might even want to stop using it altogether and just start doing things the way you were doing them before e collar to get your normal back until your trainer can either set you straight or you find a better trainer.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I hope you're right lol, this is why I got another German shepherd... 
I've let him off leash here and there the past couple months in safe areas without the long line or e collar and he was perfect. Recalled off dogs a few times, herd of deer and a bunny in my in laws yard. I started the e collar last Wednesday and it was all going good it seemed until today. I just got the new 1 inch contact points in the mail today, actually husband right now went to switch them out and Gandalf tried forcing his head into the collar. So he's associating it with good things. I think I just suck with technology lol. Usually he's a soft dog, minimal corrections on the leash on a flat collar will get his attention my mind is blown that he would ignore that nick!!! What's a bungee strap?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There are two different kinds. I like this first one better, but it can be too much "stuff" to get a good snug fit on a skinny neck dog It worked great on my big boy who is around 88lb.

https://www.educatorcollars.com/bio...M0_Jywpnh2N3UcMNyz6-rxP-tNrLyLFRoC_GcQAvD_BwE

Skinnier dogs do better with either the second kind but I don't really like the flopping ends...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00X6DA9S...t=&hvlocphy=9003098&hvtargid=pla-411545414772

Helps you get a nice snug fit for better contact. Those links look weird, I hope they work.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I hope you're right lol, this is why I got another German shepherd...
> I've let him off leash here and there the past couple months in safe areas without the long line or e collar and he was perfect. Recalled off dogs a few times, herd of deer and a bunny in my in laws yard. I started the e collar last Wednesday and it was all going good it seemed until today. I just got the new 1 inch contact points in the mail today, actually husband right now went to switch them out and Gandalf tried forcing his head into the collar. So he's associating it with good things. I think I just suck with technology lol. Usually he's a soft dog, minimal corrections on the leash on a flat collar will get his attention my mind is blown that he would ignore that nick!!! What's a bungee strap?


So when he ignored the e collar was he on the line or off?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

He was on the line, I didn't think to put tension on it though I just progressed to the constant button and then he came.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Links work. I don't think the e collar was slipping though, I had it so tight and the box remained up high on the side of his neck the entire hike


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I'm probably the last person who should chime in. I've only had the one dog I currently have and I just started using the e collar 3 weeks ago. I've spent the last 10 months busting my butt to train my dog on my own. Trust me lol Gandalf has light years on him. If your dog has no hope of being an off leash dog than I better start building a six foot fence because mine will never be able to leave the house.

It seems that maybe you were not given the best instruction. I've read, talked and watched all I can even have a trainer. While I felt prepared it has been different having the remote in my hand. You might want to slow down. Do more conditioning. The best guide I've found is Larry Krohns book. Perhaps not the best but it's what I got.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I'm curious why do you stim when you recall? Wouldn't that make the dog not want to come? Versus recall, if the dog doesn't come then do a constant stim? Can someone explain dog psychology to me lol?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

That particular method uses negative reinforcement. 

"Negative reinforcement is a term described by B. F. Skinner in his theory of operant conditioning. In negative reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by stopping, removing, or avoiding a negative outcome or aversive stimulus."

You start the stim the moment before the recall to be sure the dog perceives it because otherwise your command may overshadow the stim.

The reward is the stopping the stim.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> He was on the line, I didn't think to put tension on it though I just progressed to the constant button and then he came.


Was the e collar ever associated with a leash or a line in any way?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Excerpt from Steve's link:

Escape training--the first step.
"Escape training" is the first step we take in teaching the dog to be "bilingual." During escape training, the dog learns to turn off low level electrical stimulation ("escape" from it) by performing the command.

As with anything else you teach the dog, you introduce escape training step-by-step, progressing from a simple distraction-free situation to one that is full of distractions and excitement. Your goal will be to have a dog that has learned that it can control the stimulation by "escaping" from it.

The next step--let the dog win.
After it understands escape training, the dog is then ready to make the transition to understanding how to prevent the correction altogether through prompt compliance.

Here at the Training Center, we call this step "avoidance training." "Avoidance training" is a technical term used to refer to the fact that the dog has learned to avoid the correction entirely by prompt compliance. It has nothing to do with undesirable avoidance behavior on the protection field.

During this phase of the training in collar understanding, you can build speed and style into the dog's performance.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Start with the dog on a long line and allow it to move around naturally until it is 15-20 feet away and facing away from you. (Do not put it on any kind of stay.) When it is looking or walking away from you, press the low button on the control unit just before you give the command "Here."

Continue to hold the button down until the dog to turns towards you. Release the button the moment that the dog has turned and begun to move towards you.

If necessary, repeat the command to get the dog's attention, and help guide it with the long line and/or some "body English" (drop to one knee, back away from the dog, etc.).

Praise the dog when it begins to move towards you, and do not require that it do any kind of sit in front or return to heel at this stage of training.

--Also excerpted from Steve's link


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

So I think that's why my trainer had me practicing the formal heel with the leash, when he moved away or looked away I vibrated and when he moved with me I didn't vibrate. Isn't that sort of the same thing? Shouldn't that have taught him to associate it with the leash? After a couple circles clockwise, sit and then counter clockwise sit. I drop the leash and he continues to respond to vibrates if he steps out of line


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I know what you mean about the “zooming in the neighbors yard” kona has a super recall too but man if she gets into that zooming mode it’s REALLY hard to get her out of it! Lol been happening WAY less as she has aged though.

I’m wanting to start e collar training very soon, been watching so many videos it’s starting to get confusing.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Yeah it's been a while since I've seen him zoomie lol I thought he was done with that. Dumb of me to even try recalling him when he's in that state. It's incredibly confusing... I feel like he gets it but he doesn't get it.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

What i was told is once you get some understanding then it's about repetition giving the dog a better understanding of the e collar language. Once the dog is confident you can move forward at a great rate of progress without the dog feeling over pressured. Seems important to me that I spend ample time doing easy stuff in easy places so that a good understanding is established and the dog is confident in that understanding. 
First couple weeks were clumsy for me it's getting better and I am seeing improvement with out sacrificing the relationship or attitude. Time will tell in the end.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Gandalf have you contacted your trainer or do you have a next appointment scheduled?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> So I think that's why my trainer had me practicing the formal heel with the leash, when he moved away or looked away I vibrated and when he moved with me I didn't vibrate. Isn't that sort of the same thing? Shouldn't that have taught him to associate it with the leash? After a couple circles clockwise, sit and then counter clockwise sit. I drop the leash and he continues to respond to vibrates if he steps out of line


I guess it could be. One thing is for escape training or negative reinforcement to work, the stimulus has to be unpleasant for the dog to want to have a desire to turn it off and feel rewarded when it stops. Some dogs are scared by the vibe--my dogs don't care. They understand it as a cue later but it is not something that my dogs would "work to turn off". I know dogs that are pretty startled by the vibe and a dog like that would probably work to turn it off but some dogs are sufficiently startled by it that it's actually too much and you have to use a lower level stim instead of vibe with those because for them that's the right level. i.e. low level stim is less aversive to than the vibe feature.

Also, I'm not clear on how a couple of repetitions of heeling with vibe is going to help your dog understand recalling with the e collar.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Not to be mean, but you are doing it wrong.

Please, read through the link Steve posted and buy Larry Krohn's book for $10 on Amazon. And read it. The book will at minimum give you an understanding of how to train and proof with e-collar and also how to trouble shoot. He also has some good vids free on YouTube. 

It sounds like you haven't given G any understanding of the stim, or taught him the language of the e-collar, and then decided to use it when G was sniffing because you got frustrated vibe wasn't working. That's predictable- the vibe not working. As CG said, the dogs might understand it as a cue- and I have paired it with the tone for that, but they won't try to avoid it. 

If my dogs can be off leash on snowmo trails, with the instinctual drives to chase loud moving objects, G can certainly graduate to off leash. 

Another trainer I personally really "get" is Jamie Penrith. He has a few really great videos where he gets into the details on training, which I watch a couple times a month, just to refresh my understanding and to learn. Here he talks about stim levels-
important to understand...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I've been doing the formal heeling exercises with the e collar, leash and then no leash and practicing recalls in the front yard and he's been doing really great, hadn't had to even really use the vibrate feature much. My trainer said do it for a week. So tomorrow will be exactly a week... so today I decided to take him on the local trail with his long line and practice. We did our usual heel sequence, recall practice and then started to hike. A smelly bush caught his interest and I did the normal recall and he didn't listen so I vibrate, nothing recall again, then nick recall again, nothing, and then recall again constant and finally he responds. Same thing happened when we played ball and he didn't bring it. Which is NOT like him! Normally he bolts back as fast as he can to bring the ball so I throw it again. I feel like the e collar might be confusing him or something? Or he is waiting for the stim to respond? Am I doing something wrong here? Or should I take a step back and I shouldn't have introduced distractions so quickly. It's just kind of odd because his obedience seemed to be much better with no collar on at all, we've practiced recalls under distractions and hes been good without the e collar which is why I thought it was time to bring it into the equation and give him freedom. Is he too young for e collar training? All of the instances where he ignored he was engaged in sniffing, he has been sniffing a lot more lately and marking like crazy. May be just an adolescence stage? Every instance passing wildlife, people and dogs he behaved exactly how he should. He did well at the end of the hike and walked past crowds of hikers even an infant someone was carrying without issue, he did a good formal heel past them all and even heard a lot of comments people saying how well trained he was, etc. He had some stomach trouble today so i'm wondering if maybe he just wasn't feeling good... first time in a while he has had stomach problems again. I think it may have been a marrow bone from a new source, it was huge and probably too much for him.


My opinion is you have a malady that even experienced trainers have; You are moving too fast in what you are doing, so that the foundation won’t stand up against competing motivations!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Muskeg I wasn't getting frustrated with him I'm just doing what my trainer instructed me to do. He said call then vibrate if he doesn't respond then call again, if he doesn't respond again then nick, if he doesn't respond again then constant. After the constant he bolts to me happy and excited. That's not very nice of you to say since I've been working with him diligently every single day. I'll check out those links and the books. That video wasn't helpful at all, I'm not cranking up the levels. He responds beautifully at a 20 and has been all week. He just doesn't respond to the vibrate which is zero stim on my collar. My trainer doesn't use e collar for off leash hikes, he used it mostly I believe to proof schutzhund training so may be why this isn't working in this situation. I'm bummed to have to take a different approach, I'm worried this might just confuse my dog even more now since we're doing it two different ways now. Should I even bother contacting my trainer? I agree, think we are moving too fast. My trainer said he should be good by a week so I had that expectation. I think it's unrealistic.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Muskeg I wasn't getting frustrated with him I'm just doing what my trainer instructed me to do. I'll check out those links and the books. That video wasn't helpful at all, I'm not cranking up the levels. He responds beautifully at a 20 and has been all week. He just doesn't respond to the vibrate which is zero stim on my collar. My trainer doesn't use e collar for off leash hikes, he used it mostly I believe to proof schutzhund training so may be why this isn't working in this situation. I'm bummed to have to take a different approach, I'm worried this might just confuse my dog even more now since we're doing it two different ways now. Should I even bother contacting my trainer? I agree, think we are moving too fast. My trainer said he should be good by a week so I had that expectation.


I'm really torn about this. My first instinct is always to say-- don't sabotage your dog or your trainer by taking advice on the internet that conflicts with what your trainer told you to do.

To be perfectly honest I am not at all sure that your trainer's method is right for you and Gandalf but I also may not have the whole or correct picture hearing it second hand typed on the internet. I think you said from the beginning that your trainer was not skilled or able to help you in getting a good offleash hike with an e collar? 

I guess to be fair it is maybe worth a shot to go back to your trainer and ask for help since things are getting worse not better, and see what the outcome of that is. I don't know---anybody else on here please chime in.

I definitely wouldn't do it both ways. Either say this trainer isn't a good fit and do it yourself a different way or stick with your trainer and do what he tells you to do and go to him with problems.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Yes I'm torn too, the reason I went to an experienced trainer is because I'm not confident in reading books and watching videos to teach this myself. I've never used an e collar before, I'm not confident with this device. That's correct, my trainer said he could teach me to use the e collar but he said NEVER rely on the e collar to hike off leash, always use a long line instead. I'm in central Florida so as you can imagine our trails are a little different from say the middle of Wisconsin. I run into a ton of people, dogs, babies, etc. constantly on the trail. Maybe this is not even possible for my area. The local trails are seriously like theme parks, I'm not exaggerating, I pay $45 for a pass I put on my car and the parking lot is usually full. Hiking into the woods there's usually a line, but it thins out as we go further. Safety for those around me and my dog are my highest priority


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Just catching up. You are getting good advice here, liking cowboysgirl, others too.
I just want to say, it's okay to step back from that ecollar (check with your trainer), as in put the transmitter away (you can leave the collar on) and just think about it some more, give yourself time research (and this thread counts as a great resource), ask your questions, and think about what and how you want to do things.

I think from your description, is that the trainer is using the vibe as a substitute small leash correction & stim (increasing levels) as a stronger substitute leash correction. 

And it sounds like you've taken him off the leash/long line thinking he understood what vibe & stim means.
About that sniffing...sometimes dogs can become so engrossed in sniffing that they literally don't hear you, or notice you, or notice the vibe or a lower level stim. Personally, if my dog is doing that kind of sniffing, and no harm is coming his way, I let him finish. (in early days, I used the collar & always had to escalate, and it made him jumpy about sniffing, not the effect I wanted<---_told this story so you know what a training mistake looks like_).

I'd be careful using the stim around dogs/babies, etc. until you are sure your dog is okay with it (see superstitions with ecollar, or even my story above (jumpy about sniffing). 

Here's a do as I say, not do as I do (did) advice. Goes with the story above.

Keep the long line on him for much longer. So, story above, I should have had my dog on long-line, call him off sniffing, vibe/or stim, dog ignores, *use the long line to guide him in, *instead of what I did, which was turn the collar up & start pressing buttons.

So your in the early days with this collar, so instead of dialling up, maintain a physical means (long line) of enforcing your commands, the collar, vibe or low level stim should get paired with rewards for compliance (negative reinforcement (stim stops), positive reinforcement, treats, toys, praise, release to play) and also paired with basic solid leash pressure so the low level stim means he's gotta do it anyway because non compliance isn't an option.

Man, hope that made sense. Probably could have just said, use the long line & made more sense.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thanks islanddog, good solid advice. My reason for getting rid of the long line and switching to the e collar is because the line is cumbersome and dangerous for me. I've had several times where it's wrapped around my foot and didn't notice and I've had many "Charlie brown kicking the football" moments. I could hang on to it but in the woods he is constantly back tracking around me and then dashing forward wrapping me like a mummy or tripping me up. Lately I've been letting it drag but I usually can't grab it in time if he does bolt and it gets stuck and then yanks him full circle. Yesterday he got stuck on a bridge because it caught on the corner of the wood. It works well if I attach it to his prong instead of his pulling harness but then that's pretty dangerous for him if he bolts and has 33ft to run at. I don't know how others do it...


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Thanks islanddog, good solid advice. My reason for getting rid of the long line and switching to the e collar is because the line is cumbersome and dangerous for me. I've had several times where it's wrapped around my foot and didn't notice and I've had many "Charlie brown kicking the football" moments. I could hang on to it but in the woods he is constantly back tracking around me and then dashing forward wrapping me like a mummy or tripping me up. Lately I've been letting it drag but I usually can't grab it in time if he does bolt and it gets stuck and then yanks him full circle. Yesterday he got stuck on a bridge because it caught on the corner of the wood. It works well if I attach it to his prong instead of his pulling harness but then that's pretty dangerous for him if he bolts and has 33ft to run at. I don't know how others do it...


You and my left hand can have a chat about the dangers of long lines. 3 months of formal physio, permanent (thankfully minor) damage, probably will end up with arthritic knuckles, etc...yeah, I hate them too. <--and my dog is under 40lb!!!

Maybe for your early training phase, end the freedom (yeah, sucks for the dog), and leash up (short leash) for those hike and use the long line ONLY when you will be actively training (at least until you know he understands the ecollar)

And thanks, I'm always worried when I say stuff people will take things the wrong way as opposed to just sharing....

Maybe we should start a long line safety thread. I've always wondered. I know I fff'd up my hand in a technically totally preventable moment of stupid, but hindsight is always 20/20


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The secret to a long line? They don't bolt. They'll pull here and there, but they don't bolt. Those are some things your skipping over in his foundation. Think about stepping back a little.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Hi. Where do you live in Florida where is such an anthill of people? I would be more concerned with alligators. 

There are so many ways to use the e collar over 
the internet it is confusing. You will feel awkward the first week or 10 days anyway its good to just do what your trainer says. The e collar is not rocket science. We taught ourselves to use it with the pamplet that came with it. You give the come command, if they ignore, you yell NO and stim. It could be just a vibrate. Come! No response yell NO and zap. Give command again and when they come its a praise party of over the top joy. Its just long distance correction. We use the tone as a signal for her to come to us from far away or when she is out of sight over a hill or something.

I've been using the Off command as all purpose instead of Leave it. If she is too interested in a baby calf- Off! If she is driving the pony the wrong direction - Off! She veers off. Then repeat the Bring Him. It is like a reset command. 

You could use Off to veer away from children when he's off leash. Once I saw a strange creature with a big white head a couple had on leash at the beach. It turned out to be a crawling baby in a sun hat. (I suppose they had the leash so they could snatch him up and run in case of a dangerous sneaker wave). They aslo had 2 off leash dogs. OFF! She veered off. (The off command still works as a get down off of something, such as a chair or table she was Upped on).

There was the night on the ranch we took her out and Inga suddenly took off in the dark. Then we heard the explosisive squealing, grunting and screaming of a big sounder of wild hogs. At this time of year they have piglets and boars with them. They can just open a dog's belly with their tusks. Inga did not recall, just was barking farther and farther up the hill with all the squealing and snarling. It was so scary it was horrible. Finally I was Yelling Come as loud as I could and the hog noise just continued and growing more distant. So I knew she was probably blowing me off and in very high prey drive. Heck, maybe she didn't hear me in all that noise. SO I yelled NO! and gave her a max size 7 correction. In a short time she reappeared out of the dark, panting but all in one oiece.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Island dogs: "I just want to say, it's okay to step back from that ecollar (check with your trainer), as in put the transmitter away (you can leave the collar on) and just think about it some more, give yourself time research (and this thread counts as a great resource), ask your questions, and think about what and how you want to do things"

I totally agree, you are confused, the dog is confused, just lay off the e collar altogether until you sort some things out, including how to use your long line.

About that I will say, let the line drag out behind you in a straight line on the ground and hold it where it passes next to your body. I feed it in and out through that hand like a human flexi leash and the result is that there is not enough slack between me and the dog for the dog to get enough momentum to really take me out. 

Horse teamsters put driving reins over their shoulder in a similar fashion--long straight line, to keep it out of the way.

But I will also freely admit longlines don't scare me because I spent 20 years with horses using longe lines and long lines on them...and you bettwe believe when a 1000lb animal is attached to it you learn how to be a line ninja so you never get caught and killed. Dogs are nothing compared to that.

It is a pain when the dog is circling and everything else. But in my opinion a necessary evil because if the dog feels the stim and does not understand and respond properly you have to make it clear with the line. If you can't make it clear then the dog will either ignore the stim or learn to push through it and go on about their way which is pretty bad news for your long term goals.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yes I'm torn too, the reason I went to an experienced trainer is because I'm not confident in reading books and watching videos to teach this myself. I've never used an e collar before, I'm not confident with this device. That's correct, my trainer said he could teach me to use the e collar but he said NEVER rely on the e collar to hike off leash, always use a long line instead. I'm in central Florida so as you can imagine our trails are a little different from say the middle of Wisconsin. I run into a ton of people, dogs, babies, etc. constantly on the trail. Maybe this is not even possible for my area. The local trails are seriously like theme parks, I'm not exaggerating, I pay $45 for a pass I put on my car and the parking lot is usually full. Hiking into the woods there's usually a line, but it thins out as we go further. Safety for those around me and my dog are my highest priority


Okay so another thing--- I would NOT start here with E Collar. Here meaning these trails you described. Where else can you go and train---a flat open field like a park or something with close mowed grass which is smooth and flat would really help you in managing the long line and dog. A field which is empty or maybe has faraway distractions. But I'd be looking for an athletic field or golf course(don't get in trouble trespassing lol) or I don't know what...but something empty, flat, easy.

If you have to temporarily walk your dog on the busy trail on a regular six foot leash he won't die. 

And really, if you don't think you can do this by yourself--you may really need a new trainer. This isn't working for you and if your trainer says you can never rely on the e collar for hiking then I have to assume he does not know how to teach you to achieve that. There has got to be a pet dog trainer around you who can help you do this, it isn't rocket science


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

PS Gandalf I don't mean it isn't rocket science and you should not be struggling with it---no judgement of you from me

I mean it isn't such a hard or unknown thing for a trainer to teach a client to do that surely there is one around you who can help


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Nurse with your off command do you use tone, stim or nothing? Alligators are the least of my concerns, he understood from day one to stay away from water in nature. He's a brilliant dog, I know he can do this. It's my fault for not being a clear trainer for him. Thank you all for your advice this has helped tremendously... I'm going to read over everything you all have said and continue to ponder this. I think I need to make a decision on which method to use and stick with it. He responds instantly to the constant stim so I'm thinking of taking vibrate out of the equation. I like your methods cowboys and I think it could work better for us.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I feel you about the long line thing. I’m about to go do some long line training today. Tangled mess. We only use it for legality reasons.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

konathegsd said:


> I feel you about the long line thing. I’m about to go do some long line training today. Tangled mess. We only use it for legality reasons.


If the dogs near you, shorten it up. Use 2 hands to roll up the slack, and you can let it feed through your fingers as the dog goes out. I'm not exactly graceful, if I can do it, I'm sure you can. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the idea you guys may be depending on the line to restrain them, that's where you get into that ping ponging, coming back around you. Try being very clear with either heel, or release and on release you go with them with the line let out. Does that make sense?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve I'm just not as skilled as you, and I have baby hands lol. All that rope just doesn't fit easily! And he likes to do circles around me constantly


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

That mkes sense! My problem is they tangle it in their own feet LOL. We go to an open Park and have them do place on there cots and then recall to me, or other variations and they always get so tangled in their feet. I trust both off leash but park rangers around here will give you a 100$ citation.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Steve I'm just not as skilled as you, and I have baby hands lol. All that rope just doesn't fit easily! And he likes to do circles around me constantly


You know he's going to, so be ready to step in front of him and stop him. Go into heel for a little while, then a calm release. Stand still till you've fed out some line. Get rid of the rope and use a flat line with no handle. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong about how you guys are using it, but on release, it should be more like a casual walk where you can relax and just calmly keep the line from tangling.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay so another thing--- I would NOT start here with E Collar. Here meaning these trails you described. Where else can you go and train--*-a flat open field like a park or something with close mowed grass which is smooth and flat would really help you in managing the long line and dog. *A field which is empty or maybe has faraway distractions. But I'd be looking for an athletic field or golf course(don't get in trouble trespassing lol) or I don't know what...but something empty, flat, easy.
> 
> *If you have to temporarily walk your dog on the busy trail on a regular six foot leash he won't die.*
> 
> And really, if you don't think you can do this by yourself--you may really need a new trainer. This isn't working for you and if your trainer says you can never rely on the e collar for hiking then I have to assume he does not know how to teach you to achieve that. There has got to be a pet dog trainer around you who can help you do this, it isn't rocket science


Bolding things I want to stress, because I've been there, done that, as in, I feel very very very very sorry for my dog when he's on a leash. I've never seen a dog for which leashed exercise seems so completely inadequate vs off-leash.... but, no, it doesn't kill him, and some patience pays off in the end. Using an ecollar right, you WILL get him off-leash, just maybe not tomorrow or next week.

And finding a flat open space for the initial training (one with NO big distractions) will give you and your dog a chance to learn.

Again, been there, done that, in all of this.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

We've practiced in the yard with no distractions and he's perfect. No stim needed. Actually can't get him to run off and get distracted at all he just stares and waits for me to recall. I was using the distractions to practice


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> We've practiced in the yard with no distractions and he's perfect. No stim needed. Actually can't get him to run off and get distracted at all he just stares and waits for me to recall. I was using the distractions to practice


Ah, got it. Something to try if you have high quality collar (didn't catch which one you have, long thread)

Find your dogs lowest level he 'feels' (not the lowest level that makes him uncomfortable enough to respond to, but the lowest level he 'feels')

Start at zero, tap button, then call name, encourage him, YUMMY TREAT/or TOY/or FUN, in that order, repeat 5 times.

Turn collar up 1, repeat. When he starts responding to the stim (before you use your voice) you've found the 'lowest level he feels'. Test collar on you 1st to make sure there are enough comfortable increments. 

Now you can use that level with your known commands and use them 'with' your commands, and 'with' your leash pressure etc... and know you are not correcting/punishing him, but instead, teaching him to associate the stim with obeying a command. 

Sooner or later you'll want to proof, with distractions (at which point you will probably have to dial up and make things uncomfortable, maybe even REALLY uncomfortable (thinking about deer/coyotes here), but 1st you need to teach them what the collar means. 

It kind of sounds like your trainer skips this step and just 'corrects' the dog with the collar. 

If you are using the collar only to correct, of course you won't want to stim pre-emptively as that would be unfair correction. With a cheap collar, the lowest level of stim is too high--those can only be used as correction only.

Modern high quality collars have stim levels that are comfortable and much less noticeable than the vibrate. (mine's a mini-educator) and the lowest level I feel can only be described as a 'sensation'/neutral.

That doesn't mean I don't turn it up or use it correctively. A "sensation" will not stop my dog from chasing wildlife, but in the beginning, I needed to teach him what that 'sensation' meant (for me it meant turn around and come towards me) before I would even think of turning it up.

Basically, my dog can feel a 4 (mini-educator) and will change behaviour, or 'get in' to heel at 4 even outdoors but 4 is meaningless as a 'correction' (it's not off putting, it's just a signal at 4). Some dogs can feel a 3 or 2. 

If you have that low low level, you can use it for obedience training too.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Hey yeah sorry about that lol! It's a dogtra 2300, good quality collar. My trainer worked through all that with us, the lowest stim he can feel is a 20. We did a lot of call and reward practice at his facility. His ears flick back for a second and he gets a look on his face and looks at me when I press the nick button. He also already knows his place command. When people knock on the front door he automatically runs to his place and lays down.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> We've practiced in the yard with no distractions and he's perfect. No stim needed. Actually can't get him to run off and get distracted at all he just stares and waits for me to recall. I was using the distractions to practice



oops, one more thing. Toss something away from you so that you can recall, make a game of back and forth. This is probably why a lot of ecollars train 'place' (going to a mat or bed) at the same time as a recall so that the dog learns to move away from you as well as towards (another step I skipped in the been there/done that department).

Honestly, methinks you need to find a trainer that understands all this. Or maybe talk to the trainer you have, again, sometimes it's just miscommunications.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Hey yeah sorry about that lol! It's a dogtra 2300, good quality collar. My trainer worked through all that with us, the lowest stim he can feel is a 20. We did a lot of call and reward practice at his facility. His ears flick back for a second and he gets a look on his face and looks at me when I press the nick button


I don't know that collar or your dog but 20 sounds high (nice collar though).

Some dogs are stoic. They feel it, but won't tell you they feel it even with an ear flick, so you may have found too high a level, and your dog is feeling weird about the training again.

Try with food. With his meals (he has some allergies, right?), are you familiar with clicker training? Instead of 'click' = treat, stim (super low levels only) = treat. 

That's the lowest level the dog can feel. 

The ear flick is the lowest level that makes the dog uncomfortable enough to want to do something about it. 

Two different things.

Have you tried it on yourself? There should be a point, just above 'I feel nothing' that 'feels like something' then a little higher 'mmm, that's interesting, or even nice (what people are talking about when comparing them to tens units). Those sensations are not negative reinforcement but can be paired in your dogs mind with fun things.
Above those levels, you get 'hmmm, maybe I should move' (<--that's your ear flick point, hopefully)/working level, the level at which under low distraction, negative reinforcement works. Above that, 'not nice, definitely must move', above that, eventually, yikes and ouch.<--stops deer running.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Well it's with the wrong probes. He's got super long thick hair so my trainer recommended 1 inch probes (just installed got them in the mail yesterday), so I figure the number will probably be different with more solid contact. We were using 3/4 inch the past few days. Yep familiar with clicker training. That's what we were doing in training basically. Recalled with the vibrate at first and reward, formal heel around and reward with the vibrate. Did that consistently for 6 days straight and here we are. He doesn't chase deer, coyotes or rabbits. Yes tried it on myself I can handle a 39 then it hurts.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Well it's with the wrong probes. He's got super long thick hair so my trainer recommended 1 inch probes (just installed got them in the mail yesterday), so I figure the number will probably be different with more solid contact. We were using 3/4 inch the past few days. Yep familiar with clicker training. That's what we were doing in training basically. Recalled with the vibrate at first and reward, formal heel around and reward with the vibrate. Did that consistently for 6 days straight and here we are. He doesn't chase deer, coyotes or rabbits. Yes tried it on myself I can handle a 39 then it hurts.


39!!! You sound like my husband. I'm a weenie, stopped at 9.

Nice thing about vibrate, it's guaranteed consistent. You'll be figuring out the levels all over again with the new probes anyway. I had to use the 'long hair' probes on my dog, and he's got a much thinner coat than me shepherds ever did.

I'm guessing that if he stopped chasing things in 6 days and has a high prey drive that the vibrate was fairly 'corrective' for him.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

He never chased those things and if he did he has always recalled easily off wildlife. Wildlife is not the problem and has never been. He wants to chase them but he knows better. The problem is dogs and potentially small children. But you shouldn't stim against a dog I've been told or he'll think it's attacking him. And just blowing recalls in general smelling bushes. It's complicated... he's a strange smart dog


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

He thinks it's his offleash duty to greet other dogs and kiss babies


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Nurse with your off command do you use tone, stim or nothing? Alligators are the least of my concerns, he understood from day one to stay away from water in nature. He's a brilliant dog, I know he can do this. It's my fault for not being a clear trainer for him. Thank you all for your advice this has helped tremendously... I'm going to read over everything you all have said and continue to ponder this. I think I need to make a decision on which method to use and stick with it. He responds instantly to the constant stim so I'm thinking of taking vibrate out of the equation. I like your methods cowboys and I think it could work better for us.


I only use vibration or a low level stim for ignoring the Off or any other command. She disobeys a well known command and I say No and back that up with a vibrate or a size 1 low level stim. Then repeat the command and give her a chance to do right and get lavish praise. When she was totally focused on in chasing in prey drive like she did with the wild hogs she got a NO! and size 7 correction. 

In the Sportdog training manual DVD they have another style of training the off leash heel. The hunting dog already knew the leashed heel. Whenever the dog's head was away from the handler's knee the dog got constant low level stim. Whenever his head was at the knee the stim stopped. So they look for a refuge from the stim by being at the knee. We did not go down that road. We just use the e collar for corrections, and we hardly any have to give any corrections these days. When we do use it for correction it can just be a vibrate. 

We don't give any warning vibrates either, we just time the stim to coincide with the No correction. Then give the command again so she can do right. She can make a decission out in the field to do right and obey, she doesn't have to come to us for praise or treats. Thats because we are out there marking and yelling Good Dog!

I only use the tone to call her in. I tried using the tone as a warning for a while but it just seemed to confuse her so I just use it as a summons. I guess she thinks her other name is beep beep beep


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well sometimes too many cooks spoil the broth....but here is how I use the collar.I only use it to reinforce "leave it" ,"stop/stay",or "come here".When he absolutely knew and responded to those commands no matter where we were, we began with the e collar.Any stim he might receive is only for disobeying the command and he understands that.He won't develop any superstition s about something in the environment causing the stim/correction if that is made crystal clear to him.If Samson wants to run across the corn field and visit the neighbor's elderly dog who is standing over there barking(come visit me!) he would get a nick from the collar from blowing off my "leave it".That only happened once(darn,she means it!)Samson and old Jake are still buddies and occasionally I release him to run over and greet and sniff for a moment or two.Then when I call him back it's in his best interest to come tearing back across the field immediately.It's actually fun practice for him- a reward for the send out and a big fuss made over him and a ball game for an enthusiastic recall.
His collar is set just high enough to startle (8) and it's got a boost button that's set five notches higher just in case.Only used that once when we walked outside and there were four horses and riders coming around the curve.He took off after them and I freaked!Stop/Stay!He did stop but tensed up to go again.Boost button,Come Here!Get back inside!In my mind I saw riders flying,horses running,Samson getting kicked.But all worked the way it was supposed to,everyone was safe,and he's not afraid of horses.
So anyway we use the collar to make sure he doesn't blow off a command ever, even when in drive.There are plenty of deer and turkeys here when the snow begins to melt in the field around us so we practice his self control watching them and "leave it"when they notice us and take off running.A dozen white tails bobbing away is quite tempting for himIf you could find some doggie friends to practice with I think it would help you both confidence wise and helping Gandalf understand how things work.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

We tried it again today with the new 1 inch probes and he was feeling better today (no more diarrhea). I tried a mixture of cowboys and my trainers method, I hope this doesn't confuse him more but it makes sense to me and the results today were great. For little things like leash work, drop the ball, hey get away from that trail we're going this way dude I used vibrate and if he didn't listen planned to back it up with a nick but didn't have to for anything. And for recall I would call him and hit constant as he was turning around and then let off the button the second his body started moving my way. He didn't blow the recall once today and we had some serious distractions. About 10 people getting into the woods including 3 dogs. One of the dogs was on a narrow area barley big enough for two people to squeeze by, I had to long line on Gandalf just in case but he was doing so well and really focused in I tried the collar to see what might happen. The dog went beserk, barking in his face as the owner proceeded to ask me "can they play?" Gandalf took a step forward, I said leave it , vibrate and he walked past the dog without another sniff. At this point i'm not sure if yesterday was a fluke and I over reacted, maybe the 3/4 inch probes just weren't getting good contact yesterday or maybe he was just feeling sick. Not sure but he did awesome. I noticed today as well that the 1 inch probes must be making better contact because a 20 was way too high for him. I took a video of him at a 15 stim and it still looked too high to me... he reacted with his entire body. Anyways i'll let the experts take a look and you guys can tell me what you think. I took another video at the end of our hike... he was back to his normal self today, constantly checking in on me and staying close without a word or anything from me. Normally he never takes his eyes off me. I'm going to be keeping the long line on for a while until I see more consistency with him. I figure any other command he can get a warning for that's fine... but COME is the most important thing in the world. I'm not going to fool around with a vibrate a nick and then a constant. If he doesn't come immediately it could be life or death so I'm not going to give him time to think about whether he wants to or not.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

https://youtu.be/pEEY09wSq9g


https://youtu.be/Vch-ulJZYg8


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have not followed this thread although I have read a bit here and there along the way. I am not sure what you are trying to demonstrate in the videos, but what I see is a dog that is obsessively tuned in to you by almost constantly looking at you. This is not checking in, this is an over concern with what you want next. He does not seem to be enjoying his time with you. He needs time to just be a dog and tend to his needs like sniffing and exploring without be worried about constantly focusing on yours. Build on your relationship, let your dog relax, have fun, and let him enjoy time spent with you.

If you can't trust him off leash, walk him on the longline and leave him alone. At most, do a recall two or three times over the duration of the walk. IMO, you need to take a few steps back.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't know why your trainer didn't warn you that you might have to find a new number with the longer contact points.

Right now Gandalf my big thing is don't do your foundation work in the face of aggressively barking dogs. That's exactly how those superstitious associations are made. 

I'll watch these videos later and tell you what I think but for now, work him someplace quieter. Find an empty field. empty dog park. empty playground. walk along with him and wait for smells to draw him away and get your foundation reps in. 

can't do too many reps, he will go Velcro. It's a time waster waiting for the environment to draw him out. But it's how to do it. Don't tell him to go away from you because he is hanging close and then stim him back.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Mineisworkingline that's what he does naturally when I don't interfere. That was after about 45 minute of walking with me saying nothing and no corrections. He always watches me constantly. I have medical issues and he does that job well. I'd like for him to turn it off more sometimes when I know I'm good but it's difficult to get him to relax usually. He's done this for forever, way before we introduced the e collar. I showed this video to show how he normally acts. Cowboys do you have this trouble with your dog?

Got it, we'll try to find somewhere better. Back yard an okay idea? Or is that too boring? We did the front yard the past 6 days and theres more distractions there than the trail sometimes. Generally when he knows we're training he just stands there an stares and me and won't go away.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

watched the first one quick. be careful stopping before you call as that will become a cue to him too. My first glance was that that recall looked fine. I never saw him recall begore the collar so i cant say for sure i saw the collar impact. I can see it if I see before and after if you know what I mean.

Be careful doing this around dogs and babies, see above. And don't drill him to death. get a good one then leave him alone for awhile. let him enjoy himself and do whatever. not saying you did drill him to death just a pointer


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> watched the first one quick. be careful stopping before you call as that will become a cue to him too. My first glance was that that recall looked fine. I never saw him recall begore the collar so i cant say for sure i saw the collar impact. I can see it if I see before and after if you know what I mean.
> 
> Be careful doing this around dogs and babies, see above. And don't drill him to death. get a good one then leave him alone for awhile. let him enjoy himself and do whatever. not saying you did drill him to death just a pointer


That was about an average recall I would say for him, not really any difference before the e collar. Did the stim look too strong to you or fine? Hmm but isn't the point of the e collar to recall him back when theres a dog so I can leash him up? I probably did over do it in the beginning, I always make him fuss back on the heavy traffic trail as well so he doesn't run into people around a blind corner. Honestly I won't lie here I thought all german shepherds were like that with their owners. This one doesn't even let me go to the bathroom alone.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My dogs stalk me when I have a ball on the trail. So the way he was looking at you while walking didn't bother me. I'll watch them again and tell you if anything jumps out at me


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"Hmm but isn't the point of the e collar to recall him back when theres a dog so I can leash him up?"

That's fine if that's your long term goal but don't start there. He needs to understand the collar before you start using it around other dogs, in my opinion. 

- I think you had dropped the long line when you called him? If you do it like that, then you cannot help with the line if need be

-as long as you are the only person and he is the only dog I'd leave his name out and just say come so your cue is shorter and clearer. You want to see whether he is responding promptly and correctly and you might also say "Gandalf leave it" or who knows what else, so he's either anticipating the command attached to his name or you have lag time. Either way I think you'd be better off without the name.

- I didn't see any use of the e collar in the second video? I did not see anything that made me think stim was too strong in the first video.

As for him looking at you constantly I can see both sides. My dog goes back and forth between running around the woods around the trail sniffing or doing whatever, and checking in to see if he might get a toy from me. It depends a lot on how interesting the smells are, whether I have a toy and what toy it is. My girl walks along right next to me, she is never ever more than 2 feet from me. it IS different with a dog who has an idea they are looking out for you in the manner of a service dog, I don't know for sure if that's what this is or something else. My boy was out of my sight a little ways away sniffing and marking trees and I slipped on the ice. He heard me gasp thinking i was going to fall and he was right there in an instant to see if I needed him.

And like I said, sometimes he just makes a nuisance of himself when he knows I have a ball because he'd rather work for the ball than do mostly anything in the woods. Sometimes that means i need to stop carrying the toy or I need to put my foot down that he isn't getting it by trying to make me work him. I'll often toss his ball on a rope a few times when we get to the power line so sometimes as we near the powerline he will start pestering me to see if he can get me to give it to him early.

My old male had very little drive for a ball, was very interested in hunting stuff, and had never worked for me in any fashion and so he just went for walks and did his own thing until and unless I called him back.

hope that helps


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Very helpful thank you so much cowboysgirl, I really appreciate you taking the time to help us out! There just aren't really any trainers in my area with your kind of expertise. Makes total sense about the name thing, I started that because in classes when we practice recalls he would just go to whoever said come lol. Bad habit, time I stopped doing that. I wasn't using the e collar in the second video just trying to show what he is normally like off leash and being himself without corrections. First video I was never holding the line just letting it drag. I never hold it anymore because I get tangled up, I just have it there in case if I need to grab it. How many days should we take to lay down the foundation? Or what should I be looking for exactly to know he gets it? 5 minutes a day of practicing recalls? Maybe longer? Should we be practicing that leash formal heel stuff or just the recalls?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

A good lets just go together and I be a person and you be a dog command is Let's Go. Its actually a release command. One small suggestion I have when I read this > "I figure any other command he can get a warning for that's fine... but COME is the most important thing" May I suggest that disobeying all commands have the same small penalty in this soft dog ( a vib) for blowing you off.

The idea is to give 95% positive reinforcement and 5% corrections. Set him up to do right then gradually proof under greater and greater distraction. Can you take him to some open field with distractions at a minimum first? The backyard is convenient but he needs a new environment I think.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

#1 I am certainly not the leading authority on e collars and I still wish you could find a trainer who could help you do this in person.

I don't personally see the need to do anything with heel if that isn't your goal. I don't use an e collar to teach heel anyway. I don't think you need that to get the recall you want so it might be unnecessary work.

I do think it's possible that some of the way your dog acts on "his own time" is a result of probably your working on recalls a lot and having him on the long line. 

"How many days should we take to lay down the foundation? Or what should I be looking for exactly to know he gets it? 5 minutes a day of practicing recalls? Maybe longer? "

How many days...I don't know, it might be days or weeks, it can vary between dogs. The thing is, you don't want him to get the idea that every walk is nothing but a drill session, he won't leave your side anymore and he won't do anything he wants to do. So you might take him to a field and spend thirty or forty minutes walking around and call him twice. I look for the dog to re-engage with the environment. I want them to understand when I call they have to come, but I don't want them to think they are getting punished, harassed or drilled every single time they leave my side. You have to find some balance there.

Here is kind of what I do--

--work foundation in low distraction environment. sometimes this is a bit unfair to the dog especially if they have a pretty good recall to start with. But I want to know they are clearly perceiving the stim and comprehending that it goes off as soon as they begin to comply.

--then I start looking for some kindergarten distractions so I can get the dog a little focused on something and then do some reps like that, this will be partly to figure out how their number change as the distractions change because a lot of time that happens

-keep going---second grade, third grade, fourth grade.

For my dog with the deer calling off a deer at a dead run was like college level or ph.d level end game, the hard part was that there was almost nothing I could get him to fail on other than deer so it was hard to work up in a reasonable way. Your dog might be kind of similar. I was able to use this spot where there are a lot of squirrels and chipmunks that he gets got for as an intermediate step. I've used a fenced field of sheep as a substitute to start for a deer chasing dog --since the dog was never going to be used for herding

What I want to see is to find a situation where the dog isn't perfect--pauses, fails a little, introduce stim to reinforce, see that the number is correct, the dog isn't willing to stand there and ignore it, and that the dog knows that the way to turn it off is to commit to the recall. I want to see all that on the long line. Because if I got the number wrong and he does stand there and ignore it then I have to give a pull and get him going to reinforce that ignoring the stim is never an option, you must act. But also mental note to self that either he didn't understand how to turn it off or the number was wrong, gotta figure out which and fix it.

When I feel like they get it, and I am no longer having to help with the line, then I am looking for harder distractions to up the ante and this might be the point at which I start working around dogs or people at a distance to start then moving closer. So the dog has a solid understanding of what that feeling means and where it comes from before he's staring at another dog. The only time I've seen dogs ever get weird and start looking at stuff funny thinking it bit them is in the very beginning of e collar which is why I do that in neutral settings and if the dog is environmentally weak I make sure there is nothing there like a lawn ornament or something that the dog is going to freak out at and attribute to the e collar.

End of a very long day. Not sure how coherent this is. will try to read back over later. good luck. don't rush. You can always do stuff later that you haven't done yet but you can't always undo something once you've done it.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

It will be difficult for me to find a safe neutral place for him to practice this other than the trails we hike. Dogs aren't allowed on baseball fields or tennis courts here. It's ironic since my house is literally 10 steps away from our small 25 house neighborhood tennis court. But I asked them too and they said absolutely not... The authorities show up real quick, I know. I didn't even make it to an empty baseball field once when he was a puppy and someone already called the police to tattle that I was heading that way with my dog. I'd been doing the trails since he's familiar with the area since he was 8 weeks old and some parts of the trails no one is ever present. I'll have to get creative about this or just stick to the backyard. He gets pretty distracted in the backyard so it may work there.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Parking lots can work well not many competing smells. At least around here it's not hard to find a large empty parking lot. Warehouse district's can be good too.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Gosh if I lived in a place like that I'd move.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

That's funny l live in a small ocean side town on 12 beautiful heavily wooded acres. I never want to move national and state forest full of endless exploring closer than the next major city. Still not hard to find an empty lot.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Ugh just realized that wasn't directed at me :/


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Unfortunately you live where the jobs are, or you don't live at all lol. It's not all terrible, has some perks. Actually not easy to find an open lot around here, my small town has turned into a bustling city. Every lot is full of shoppers, etc. and lots are next to heavy traffic


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just for something to think about, I'm not saying your doing anything wrong or that this is something you're actually doing, but its just something I keep in mind. One valuable bit of advice I was given, and it had to be drilled into me, was knowing when to shut up. A lot of different reasons why its helpful, but I relate that sometimes to trying to figure out E. All the constant signals or whatever, vibrate, stim, leash, voice, blurs in their head. They never really know when they're right or wrong. 

To me, all he would need to know is that stim is a correction. Leave it and if he doesn't, he gets corrected. Come, he gets praised. Some people can finesse things with E without it becoming nagging, but your dog looks like he wants to obey, is attentive to you, I don't think you need much more then very simple, black and white, this is good and this is bad handling.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Just for something to think about, I'm not saying your doing anything wrong or that this is something you're actually doing, but its just something I keep in mind. One valuable bit of advice I was given, and it had to be drilled into me, was knowing when to shut up. A lot of different reasons why its helpful, but I relate that sometimes to trying to figure out E. All the constant signals or whatever, vibrate, stim, leash, voice, blurs in their head. They never really know when they're right or wrong.
> 
> To me, all he would need to know is that stim is a correction. Leave it and if he doesn't, he gets corrected. Come, he gets praised. Some people can finesse things with E without it becoming nagging, but your dog looks like he wants to obey, is attentive to you, I don't think you need much more then very simple, black and white, this is good and this is bad handling.


That is pretty much how I am using it. He gets a nick if he is doing something he knows he should not be doing. In theory it is a remote prong type correction. Have not had to even nick him for weeks. He has made the association pretty well.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The point I was trying to make with the video I posted was that the e-collar level depends on how the dog is responding. By its very definition, positive punishment is based on how the dog perceives it, not on the trainer's perception. 

Under certain conditions, you will need to crank up the collar levels. For my dogs that might be deer. For other dogs it might be something else. 

The key is to teach the dog the language of the collar away from distractions, first. Then gradually work up to bigger and bigger distractions. I train a command first, then I proof it with the collar. I will train pure avoidance for certain thing like deer, because it is difficult to "work up" to a deer spooking out from under us on the trail. 

If you are paying a trainer, and he can't explain this to you, I'd find a new one. 

How long? It's not that long, and quality is more important than quantity. I'd say for a normal dog and a good trainer, the training and proofing should take less than a month. If it is done correctly. An excellent trainer and normal dog could get the training done far quicker.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thanks Steve & Muskeg very good points. We worked today in an empty playground field with minimal distractions and he did great. He's a good boy, looks like he is really getting it. We're going to take it slow like this for a while and introduce distractions slowly like you all said, I'd rather do it right than rush it.


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