# give and take



## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

My trainer made a statement I didn't question directly.... he said "there would be some conflict with wanting a schutzhund titled family pet".... that "there would be things I'd have to tolerate from a schutzhund I wouldn't have to tolerate with a family pet" .... I didn't question him out of some false sense of not wanting him to question my resolve to follow this through or let him down or something ... I think that's something that carried over from here where some folks questioned my ability and/or commitment .... lol... before I even got my feet wet... hahaha
Anyhow, what are some things might he have been talking about?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The only thing I can think of is maybe a higher prey drive? Its silly because a pet GSD can have a high prey drive and it needs an outlet for its energy just like a working dog needs an outlet. Is this trainer a regular obedience trainer?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You should have asked him to clarify. Because what he said is his opinion and people on the forums can't interpret what he implied.
For my dog that I train in the sport, he is treated just like my other two that I don't train in it. 
Though he is 'in training' way more, but I don't over crate him, or let him get away with things because he's a "schutzhund dog".
When you don't understand a statement or theory someone is working with you on, it is best to ask to avoid any confusion. Remember the only question that's dumb is the one that isn't asked!


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

llombardo said:


> The only thing I can think of is maybe a higher prey drive? Its silly because a pet GSD can have a high prey drive and it needs an outlet for its energy just like a working dog needs an outlet. Is this trainer a regular obedience trainer?


He specializes in schutzhund and French Ring..... he works for Dave Kroyer at Canine Headquarters in Hutto Tx


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I find that everyone who has told me this in the past has *gasp* never OWNED a SchH dog as an indoor pet, lol! It's like the folks that told me I couldn't do SchH *and* another dog sport at the same time. Those people never did more than SchH with their dogs. I don't really listen to people who tell me I can't do this or that when they have absolutely no experience with the matter. Everyone will raise their own dogs as they see fit.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I find that everyone who has told me this in the past has *gasp* never OWNED a SchH dog as an indoor pet, lol! It's like the folks that told me I couldn't do SchH *and* another dog sport at the same time. Those people never did more than SchH with their dogs. I don't really listen to people who tell me I can't do this or that when they have absolutely no experience with the matter. Everyone will raise their own dogs as they see fit.


Kind of what I was thinking... he told me he has 13 personal dogs he works in ring and schutzhund.... I'm not picturing him lounging around the house with them ..... lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I mean, on some level he's right, but there's *always* give and take, no matter how you choose to raise and manage your dogs. You do what's best for YOU. I have found that I look for the same qualities in my house pets as I do in my "working" dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Odie has a SchH1. She is a fine family pet. She is awesome with people of all shapes and sizes, babies, children, other dogs -- no problem. The ONLY thing I wish was different was her heeling, but as that has nothing to do with her ability to be a family pet, I am not sure what your trainer is talking about.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Well, most people come on here and ask how to get their puppy to STOP biting them. When you have a puppy with Schutzhund in their future you do NOT want to stop the biting. You want to redirect it to the correct object but NEVER try to stop it (even when they get you by mistake).

Some Schutzhund people will not do ANY obedience training until the dog is older - around a year or so. Most "pet" people would not be able to live with a dog that has no obedience.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Well, most people come on here and ask how to get their puppy to STOP biting them. When you have a puppy with Schutzhund in their future you do NOT want to stop the biting. You want to redirect it to the correct object but NEVER try to stop it (even when they get you by mistake).
> 
> Some Schutzhund people will not do ANY obedience training until the dog is older - around a year or so. Most "pet" people would not be able to live with a dog that has no obedience.


All of this plus:
Not correcting the dog for jumping on people. If you teach the dog to not jump on people as a puppy then it won't jump on/at the helper/decoy. Once dog is old enough it can start to learn manners but after it is clear about the differences. 

I'm trying to think of more things I have been told or heard.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I look at this SchH thing a bit differently. When it comes to bitework, I see it as the helper's job (and partly my task to help him understand) how to work my dog in the right frame of mind so that he's in the right state of drive for bitework. Bitework is not something that I create based on how I allow my puppy to interact with myself and other people. I don't allow mouthing or biting and I don't allow my dogs to jump on people. Pan had the STAR, CGC, and BH before we really started pushing him in bitework. I just can't think of how a halfway decently bred dog will be ruined in bitework because it is corrected for bad behavior, unless we're talking about correcting a young dog for acting when someone busts through the front door and starts threatening us, but I don't think that's what we're talking about.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I look at this SchH thing a bit differently. When it comes to bitework, I see it as the helper's job (and partly my task to help him understand) how to work my dog in the right frame of mind so that he's in the right state of drive for bitework. Bitework is not something that I create based on how I allow my puppy to interact with myself and other people. I don't allow mouthing or biting and I don't allow my dogs to jump on people. Pan had the STAR, CGC, and BH before we really started pushing him in bitework. I just can't think of how a halfway decently bred dog will be ruined in bitework because it is corrected for bad behavior, unless we're talking about correcting a young dog for acting when someone busts through the front door and starts threatening us, but I don't think that's what we're talking about.


 
I was just trying to think of things I have been told. In my schH club we do have a dog that was corrected for jumping on people and he doesn't have a problem biting but he doesn't really push the fight. He is more or less going through the motions and won't get in helpers bubble. Now when he's really pushed he loosens up a bit but still... Oh and he is a very well bred dog. Thats my only experience on the matter so take it for what it's worth.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Oh I knew what you meant (just repeating what others say) I'm just responding to it since I've heard the same things myself and it all sounds rather silly. IMO if a dog won't fight it should be addressed in how the dog is being worked. I doubt being corrected at home involves actively correcting a dog off a real fight. I just can't buy that a dog really views manners at home with normal people the same way as protection work where there is some threat and a good reason to be pushy and fight. I correct my dogs at home and am constantly shaping and reinforcing their manners and behavior, but I also make sure to let them know when they are *right*. I guess it's possible that in a more general sense, if someone is inconsistent with the dog at home or only every nagging the dog, never forming a good bond or working relationship, the bitework will suffer (not saying that's what's going on with the dog you mention), but I think it's only fair that a dog understand what's expected of him at home. In fact a few times I've seen the opposite, that a dog who is a wild child at home gets on the field at SchH and then there is conflict because suddenly there are rules being enforced and the dog's not really sure how to handle it (either shuts down or overloads).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Oh I knew what you meant (just repeating what others say) I'm just responding to it since I've heard the same things myself and it all sounds rather silly. IMO if a dog won't fight it should be addressed in how the dog is being worked. I doubt being corrected at home involves actively correcting a dog off a real fight. I just can't buy that a dog really views manners at home with normal people the same way as protection work where there is some threat and a good reason to be pushy and fight. I correct my dogs at home and am constantly shaping and reinforcing their manners and behavior, but I also make sure to let them know when they are *right*. I guess it's possible that in a more general sense, if someone is inconsistent with the dog at home or only every nagging the dog, never forming a good bond or working relationship, the bitework will suffer (not saying that's what's going on with the dog you mention), but I think it's only fair that a dog understand what's expected of him at home. In fact a few times I've seen the opposite, that a dog who is a wild child at home gets on the field at SchH and then there is conflict because suddenly there are rules being enforced and the dog's not really sure how to handle it (either shuts down or overloads).


You could very well be on the right track with the dog I mentioned. I never really see or hear the dog being praised for the good stuff, only scolded for the bad. Hmm....


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

Just seems to me that a properly trained schutzhund dog "should" make a better house pet than a "normally" trained family pet.... that is if he had the right temperament from the beginning. The level of obedience training required is above and way beyond that of most family pet training classes.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

I think with regards to jumping on and biting at people, it may make a huge difference in the type and level of correction .. when my dog would nip as a puppy I didn't react at all... I would just ignore it so he wouldn't get anything out of it... it worked.... with jumping I just wouldn't respond or give eye contact at all until he stopped... that worked as well... didn't do anything aversive. He doesn't bite or jump on me or my family,, but had no problem doing so with the trainer when encouraged to do so through play.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't allow any of my dogs to jump on people, and try to keep barking to a minimum. A dog training in sport needs to have manners, have an off switch and be able to live as normal in a home setting. I think a well bred GSD will be that way naturally and able to turn on when needed during training. Of course puppies need shaping and direction, but as they mature it just falls into place. You shouldn't need to 'squash' drives(by over correcting) or build drive(by over crating or kenneling). The dog should have it genetically.

I have seen some dogs with so much obedience instilled and so focused on their handler, that they are inhibited on the field. Usually comes from not starting in the sport from the get-go, but after all that obedience foundation was put on before hand.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

*Off subject*
The more I read and the more videos I watch etc etc, the more excited I am at the idea of actually competing with Yoschi .... it's been a life long dream to compete with a dog... not necessarily with schutzhund,, didn't really know there were competitions for schutzhund, but I dreamed of competing in "something"


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is addicting! Though for me, trialing is scary. I love training....so does my dog!


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

A good part of my heightened excitement is how well Yoschi is responding to training


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yoschi's_Pet_Human said:


> Just seems to me that a properly trained schutzhund dog "should" make a better house pet than a "normally" trained family pet.... that is if he had the right temperament from the beginning. The level of obedience training required is above and way beyond that of most family pet training classes.


It's a different type of training though. I know a LOT of SchH dogs with horrible house manners (and their owners would be the first to say so!). I get crazy looks when I say my SchH dog is not only not kenneled, but not usually crated either. That's not to say their dogs couldn't be good house dogs, but it's a matter of priority. A lot of hardcore SchH people even at the top levels keep dogs in kennels and their engagement means work, training, or exercise outdoors. I know one person whose puppies are born in a shed outside and the dogs live outside until they are fully titled, shown, bred, and only after retirement of a successful career are allowed to live out their days in the house. I know a lot of SchH dogs that have kennel and crate behavior I don't allow from my dogs, SchH or not (excessive spinning, nonstop barking, constant pacing the fence, biting at the kennel mesh or crate doors). These behaviors don't really matter if your dog is not causing disruptions in the house or to any nearby neighbors. Once the dog is on the field it snaps into work mode. Many dogs I've known with the flashiest obedience are dogs I would never live with in my home. Again, they don't have to go hand-in-hand (these dogs might be crazy, or the might be trained to be a normal house pet if their owner wanted them to). For me, having a nice house pet is my top priority because as much as I love SchH I only spend a little time a few times a week at it whereas my dog is indoors 24/7 other than potty, training, and exercise.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have seen a lot of puppies/young dogs that have been squashed by people wanting excellent house manners at a very young age. Can they still be worked, yes, IF they have the right stuff, but it will require far more effort for all concerned (not just the helpers) to over come behaviors taught at such a young age. This is a lot of the reason why so many trainers say you can't have both a great house dog and a great schutzhund. Of course many just have a whole different mind set about "sport dogs" Vs. pets and you will never change their minds on this topic. 

"Life" in a household can also have an effect on our dogs. It can make them more sensitive to their people, more aware of them. A dog living in a kennel can be worked when the handler is in a good mood. A dog living in the household has to deal with their person when happy, when sad, or when they have had a bad day at work and are a bit short in patience. These dogs have to live with arguing, maybe yelling, crying and screaming kids, etc. Maybe they have to share with another dog, maybe a dog that is more dominant, etc. This can be detrimental to any animal (human alike) and cause them to not work to their best potential. 

My dogs are all house dogs. I do use crates for when I need a break or I am not available to supervise. I tend to manage my puppies and young dogs, direct and channel their drives and behaviors, more so than demand certain behaviors as they are growing up. There are certain things I don't tolerate and am pretty stern about, but most of those have to do with crate behaviors (things Lies is talking about) and nonsense barking.


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