# Can you use a prong collar for training?



## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

My pup is almost 7 months old now and he's reached the point where he is very strong and heavy, thus requiring some level of control and obedience training. I currently use positive re-enforcement training (click & treat), but this methodology is proving somewhat unsuccessful when trying to teach him NOT to do certain things. I use an easy-walk harness for walking, which helps, but has not eliminated the pulling, but that's the least of my concerns right now.

My problem is that during training, he is incredibly difficult to control since all he always wants to do is play. He will also steal my equipment, run around the yard, and then destroy it.

I was wondering if a prong collar or similar equipment can be used for teaching obedience and such things, mainly for the purposes of keeping the dog under control. 

I don't want to do anything that would hurt the dog in anyway or create trust issues.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

That is the whole POINT of a prong collar.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question.

Have you been to obedience classes with your dog?


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

My pup is almost 12 weeks so not as advanced as yours but I have already found that if I give him a decent play workout 1st, he does much better. I usually toss the tennis ball or throw a soft frisbee for about a 1/2 hr for him to blow off some steam. Then my wife and I go for about a 1/2 mile walk. We let him do his business, then comes some playtime at a different area, then comes the training!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

find a trainer or enroll in a class. train and socialize
and don't become dependent on a device.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I am a big supporter of using what works for your dog. My four month old (and man, I'm sure PETA and the like will tear me a new one for this!) is already being introduced to the prong collar, lightly. Some dogs respond to flat collar/chain collar corrections. Mine does not. 7 months, to me, sounds like a reasonable time to start a prong IF your dog handles corrections very well. My pup does not take it personally if we use a prong collar. She is a well bred, stable pup and understands the concept, and her spirits are NOT crushed by it in anyway. I'd recommend finding a good trainer (one that goes outside of JUST positive, because many don't) and working with what suits your dog the best.


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## 1der_girl (Aug 16, 2006)

It doesn't sound to me like this dog has ever been corrected... maybe I am mis-reading, but it sounds like very poor behavior from a teenager who NEEDS (and craves) boundries. I don't really buy into "purely positive". I don't raise my kid like that (no negitave consequence for bad behavior) and I wouldn't raise my dog like that, either.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I agree. I am fine with purely positive training WHEN IT WORKS. If it is not working, you need to go outside the box. Sometimes you can't clicker train a dog out of some behaviors :3


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## lizzyjo (Jan 6, 2011)

Ruger is 7-1/2 months old. I use a prong when training. I also use a chain when he is in the house for those moments when he isnt listening. He is so full of himself most of the time. I know what your going through. They are teenagers at this stage. I am looking forward to him getting older and more settled. good luck ..


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

The prong is a correction collar. IMO, you train with treats and markers (positive and negative) until you are sure the dog understands what they are being asked to do and then use a correction tool to perfect. If you start using a prong to correct before they understand what you want then you risk them not thinking and offering new behaviors in fear of being corrected for not doing it right.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> The prong is a correction collar. IMO, you train with treats and markers (positive and negative) until you are sure the dog understands what they are being asked to do and then use a correction tool to perfect. If you start using a prong to correct before they understand what you want then you risk them not thinking and offering new behaviors in fear of being corrected for not doing it right.


So is it appropriate to use a prong for corrections when he's jumping on me or biting my hands excessively, considering I've tried every other alternative?

Another example would be when I'm walking him and someone passes by us. At this point he tries to jump on them, so I always have to keep him on a short leash. Would a prong correction be appropriate in this case?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

If the dog jumps on you grab paws and pinch till you get a yelp, then immediately treat and play to make sure there are no hard feelings. That can be fixed in a matter of days or hours

Biting should be redirected

On walks the second the dog pays attention to someone, mildly correct. Once he is jumping and excited, you've lost. The key is catching the behavior when he is considering indulging himself


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> The prong is a correction collar. IMO, you train with treats and markers (positive and negative) until you are sure the dog understands what they are being asked to do and then use a correction tool to perfect. If you start using a prong to correct before they understand what you want then you risk them not thinking and offering new behaviors in fear of being corrected for not doing it right.


Agreed. I train or teach with food. Hone with rewards and corrections. I only correct when I'm 100% sure the dog knows what I asked for


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Agreed. I train or teach with food. Hone with rewards and corrections. I only correct when I'm 100% sure the dog knows what I asked for


So for example, my dog knows perfectly well what "sit" means. If I tell him to sit at a time when it's necessary and he refuses to do it, then it's acceptable to correct with the prong?

So basically, only correct when you are certain that the dog is disobeying or ignoring you on purpose?


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

> So for example, my dog knows perfectly well what "sit" means. If I tell him to sit at a time when it's necessary and he refuses to do it, then it's acceptable to correct with the prong?
> 
> So basically, only correct when you are certain that the dog is disobeying or ignoring you on purpose?


Yes.

Imagine that I tell you to "igslith." (I just made up that word.)

You probably have absolutely no clue what I'm telling you to do. Would it be fair for me to correct you for misbehaving? Of course not. And you wouldn't learn anything either. You'd just learn to cringe every time I said that word because it meant I'd cause you pain.

Similarly, if you _knew_ what that word meant - and you chose not to obey me, and I caused you pain when you disobeyed...you'd know why the pain was applied. It's because you didn't do what I told you to do. If a dog is unfamiliar with corrections it may take a time or two, but from what I've seen they catch on pretty quickly. Particularly when the next time you give the order, and they obey, and no correction is given.

Anyway it's similar with a dog. They need to make that word association - when my handler says this, I need to do this. When they have that association - and refuse to do it - that's when you need to correct them, to show them that bad behavior is not acceptable.

I don't buy into the "pure positive" training. (FYI, I train almost purely positive - but my dog has a personality that makes corrections mostly unnecessary). I don't think misdirection, or ignoring bad behavior, is going to work for a vast majority of dogs. Even with mine - he *wants* to do the right thing. Correction has virtually *never* been necessary. But at a certain point, the dog's misbehavior is more rewarding than any misdirection you can offer - that's when a correction needs to come into play.

ETA: A time that is necessary for your dog to sit is _any time you tell him to sit_. It doesn't matter how urgent or necessary the circumstances make it - the simple fact that you've said it means he needs to obey. Just wanted to make sure to say that, it sounded like you don't always make him sit when you tell him to.

If you haven't always made him sit, what you've done is taught him that you aren't serious. That he can choose whether to sit or not. That creates confusion, and mistrust.

Once the word association has gotten itself cemented in the dog's mind (when master says "sit," I need to do this action), and he's consistently doing it in a variety of places (try to train it in various places, don't always train in the same spot), then you can apply a correction if the dog ignores you. You need to be 100% sure he knows what you mean, however - if you only trained him to sit in one spot, you're not there yet. He could simply just not understand that you are requiring him to sit outside the context of a training session, or outside the context of your living room, etc, etc, etc.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Draugr said:


> Yes.
> 
> Imagine that I tell you to "igslith." (I just made up that word.)
> 
> ...


I've also reached the conclusion that purely positive training doesn't always seem to work for obedience. That's why I'm looking to the prong and the correct way to use it. I've only had my pup for about 5 months (he's 7 months), but I clearly notice that he likes to obey only when he feels like it and that is starting to become somewhat problematic.

No, he doesn't always do what I tell him to do. He will obey if he feels like it or if there is some treat or after I have repeated it several times. I'm hoping the prong will be able to help with that a bit.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

BGSD said:


> I've also reached the conclusion that purely positive training doesn't always seem to work for obedience. That's why I'm looking to the prong and the correct way to use it. I've only had my pup for about 5 months (he's 7 months), but I clearly notice that he likes to obey only when he feels like it and that is starting to become somewhat problematic.
> 
> No, he doesn't always do what I tell him to do. He will obey if he feels like it or if there is some treat or after I have repeated it several times. I'm hoping the prong will be able to help with that a bit.


What I generally do is, once I know my dog knows the command:

"Sit."

Give him a second to comply.

If he obeys, treat, praise, etc. Treats aren't every single time unless I'm doing remedial work, but I *always* do praise. That includes physical touch as well, not just vocal praise. I usually do a shoulder massage, lots of pressure, heavy contact, etc.

If he does not obey, the prongs tighten. Then I loosen them back up. I give the command once more. *Generally* you only need one correction, unless it's your first time giving a correction to the dog. Then it may take him a time or two to figure out what you're attempting to communicate to him, but they learn very quickly .

For teaching loose lead walking it's wonderful. You don't have to do anything at all. Just let the prong work for you . I do that with both rings attached rather than just one ring (so they don't tighten, they just apply pressure) but my guy is pretty pain sensitive. That may not be the case for all dogs.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> If the dog jumps on you grab paws and pinch till you get a yelp, then immediately treat and play to make sure there are no hard feelings. That can be fixed in a matter of days or hours...


Seriously??? This is "technique" so antique and ineffective!

Instead:

Teach "sit." Control with a leash. When the leash is on and you are standing stationary, stand on the leash to prevent jumping and a perfectly timed correction. Praise and reward after he sits when you tell him to.

Dogs will do what we want when they understand what we want. We just have to show them what it is!

I have nothing against prong collars and highly recommend them in some cases. Heck, I handed out two in my class that just started tonight (one on a boxer mix, one on a 7 month old GSD!). 

But don't go off willy-nilly! Get yourself and your pup to a class that understands training and knows how to train you to use the equipment properly


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Achielles UD said:


> Dogs will do what we want when they understand what we want. We just have to show them what it is!


I would have to disagree, at least with GSDs.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

In my experience, GSDs are the epitome of doing what we want when they understand. They are willing and intelligent.

If you find this not to be the case... well, sometimes it is a case of the dog being smarter than the owner... :smirk:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

It is easier to correct a behavior when you replace it with something else. So like Achielles' example, the dog can't jump if he knows (or is told) to sit instead. Can't do both at the same time. 

Never repeat a command, all that does is teach the dog that they don't have to listten every time you say it. Also, remember that 7 months is still a very young dog. His attention span still isn't very long and you are approaching the bratty teenage phase. 

If you want him to listen to you everytime, you need to make your reward for doing what you say much more exciting than anything else he is paying attention to. This could be really good food or a short game of tug or catch. Reward everytime until he is doing it quickly every time and then slowly taper off.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Achielles UD said:


> Seriously??? This is "technique" so antique and ineffective!
> 
> Instead:
> 
> ...


For teaching a dog jumping on people is inappropriate, yes. Not trying to redirect the dog so telling him to sit avoids the behavior. I'm correcting the behaviour.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BGSD said:


> So for example, my dog knows perfectly well what "sit" means. If I tell him to sit at a time when it's necessary and he refuses to do it, then it's acceptable to correct with the prong?
> 
> So basically, only correct when you are certain that the dog is disobeying or ignoring you on purpose?


Right. If you correct when the dog doesn't understand what he did wrong, you're just causing confusion and hurting the relationship. The dog *must* understand what the path to success is. If he sees there being no way to win, he'll just accept the punishment as part of life, and then that training tool is not useful to you anymore


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> It is easier to correct a behavior when you replace it with something else. So like Achielles' example, the dog can't jump if he knows (or is told) to sit instead. Can't do both at the same time.
> 
> Never repeat a command, all that does is teach the dog that they don't have to listten every time you say it. Also, remember that 7 months is still a very young dog. His attention span still isn't very long and you are approaching the bratty teenage phase.
> 
> If you want him to listen to you everytime, you need to make your reward for doing what you say much more exciting than anything else he is paying attention to. This could be really good food or a short game of tug or catch. Reward everytime until he is doing it quickly every time and then slowly taper off.


Also commands are always given calmly. Go out and count how many dogs have learned "when he says it calmly it's a suggestion, when he screams the command and stomps his foot, that's the actual command"... You say "sit.... SIT!" and the dog will hear "blah blah blah... sit"


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> For teaching a dog jumping on people is inappropriate, yes. Not trying to redirect the dog so telling him to sit avoids the behavior. I'm correcting the behaviour.


Disagree. There is nothing good to come of this and why trainers today with any know-how left it in the dust long ago. 

You ARE damaging your relationship with your dog doing this. You aren't "correcting" the behaviour, you are punishing it. There is a big difference between correction and punishment. 

In pinching toes and making him yelp, you are teaching him that sometimes contact with you is painful. He isn't going to learn what he is supposed to do instead so he'll keep trying until he decides contact with you and the chances of punishment is not worth it. 

Tell the dog what you expect instead of jumping... Sit. Or even Down. This is not "avoiding the" unwanted behavior, this is DOG TRAINING. Training, teaching, guiding, learning, teamwork, companionship with respect instead of punishment, fear and egotistical crud. Showing the dog what is expected. Following through. Teaching a corrections' meaning before just hurting your dog because you can.

If you can't teach a reliable sit, by all means get thee to an obedience class! 

You are NOT "correcting the behavior" You are punishing your dog when he is only being his doggy-self, since you never taught him what to do instead.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Achielles UD said:


> Disagree. There is nothing good to come of this and why trainers today with any know-how left it in the dust long ago.
> 
> You ARE damaging your relationship with your dog doing this. You aren't "correcting" the behaviour, you are punishing it. There is a big difference between correction and punishment.
> 
> ...


Disagree. My relationship with my dogs is just fine. No need to be insulting bc you don't agree with me. 

You're still telling the dog to do something else, rather than telling the dog what he is doing is wrong

Awful lot of assuming what and how I train on your part btw


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> It is easier to correct a behavior when you replace it with something else. So like Achielles' example, the dog can't jump if he knows (or is told) to sit instead. Can't do both at the same time.
> 
> Never repeat a command, all that does is teach the dog that they don't have to listten every time you say it. Also, remember that 7 months is still a very young dog. His attention span still isn't very long and you are approaching the bratty teenage phase.
> 
> If you want him to listen to you everytime, you need to make your reward for doing what you say much more exciting than anything else he is paying attention to. This could be really good food or a short game of tug or catch. Reward everytime until he is doing it quickly every time and then slowly taper off.


Even if I have the juiciest bone in my hands, sometimes when I tell him to sit or go down, he refuses and just starts looking around, thus requiring me to repeat my command. I've been doing clicker based training for several months now, and although it's great for teaching, it hasn't taught him much obedience.

God forbid if I offer a game of tug. He ignores any and all toys and starts tugging at my hand and arms.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

BGSD said:


> Even if I have the juiciest bone in my hands, sometimes when I tell him to sit or go down, he refuses and just starts looking around, thus requiring me to repeat my command.


He refuses? Or he is bored? Or he doesn't know what you want? Dogs don't generalize. Sit in the living room isn't the same thing to them as sit outside. And they can get distracted easily, especially at his age. Have you worked on engagement with him? 

What kind of treats do you use? Do you practice on leash? How long for?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BGSD said:


> My pup is almost 7 months old now and he's reached the point where he is very strong and heavy, thus requiring some level of control and obedience training. *I currently use positive re-enforcement training (click & treat), but this methodology is proving somewhat unsuccessful when trying to teach him NOT to do certain things.* I use an easy-walk harness for walking, which helps, but has not eliminated the pulling, but that's the least of my concerns right now.
> 
> My problem is that during training, he is incredibly difficult to control since all he always wants to do is play. He will also steal my equipment, run around the yard, and then destroy it.
> 
> ...


 
*Boy, you have it it right on the head with only using positive reinforcement.* Many dogs will do ok with this approach, BUt some will not as you are finding out.

However, any obedience training approach in the hands of a neophyte will very likely not be very successful - GET THEE TO A GOOD OBEDIENCE CLASS OR SOME PRIVATE LESSONS (even better if you can).


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

In my mind, I can not conceive of pinching a dogs toes as a correction as the term is understood in modern dog training. It is a punishment. The technique does nothing to teach the dog what to DO when greeting people. Dogs need a behavior TO perform. To try to teach them that they should NOT do something leaves them with an open set to choose from and is not as clear. A dog is being punished for happily greeting. Since dogs are associative learners predominantly, the physical aversive is not something I would suggest in the people greeting situation.

As for the "stubborn" dog. When such things happen, it usually due to something being missed in the training progression. We often assume the dog is more proficient than it is. They don't plot against us.

I have a breed of dog that is very often described as stubborn. I didn't buy into that and avoided conflict. I took a step back and made the behavior easier when we had trouble. I would lure or whatever it took to help him get it right. Many happy repititions later, he would get it. The comment I get most about him from people and judges is "he is so willing!". Fun things to hear about a supposedly stubborn dog. 

Start with your training and look at what will help. Lure the down with food etc when he refuses. Training always goes best when I give my dog the benefit of the doubt!!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> If the dog jumps on you grab paws and pinch till you get a yelp, then immediately treat and play to make sure there are no hard feelings. That can be fixed in a matter of days or hours


I do something similar, but I just hold their paws in my hands and talk to them...small talk, nothing specific, with a nice tone. After a while, they are crawling out of their skin for me to let go....and I do...but if they jump again, we repeat the process....and in a matter of days or even hours they've got it....key in either method....consistency. Its funny...I spank my children, but never my GSDs!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> I do something similar, but I just hold their paws in my hands and talk to them...small talk, nothing specific, with a nice tone. After a while, they are crawling out of their skin for me to let go....and I do...but if they jump again, we repeat the process....and in a matter of days or even hours they've got it....key in either method....consistency. Its funny...I spank my children, but never my GSDs!!!


It is funny to watch them learn when you are just holding their paws when jumping! they do learn pretty quick that it is not a good idea to jump - much nicer to keep the four paws on the ground.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> He refuses? Or he is bored? Or he doesn't know what you want? Dogs don't generalize. Sit in the living room isn't the same thing to them as sit outside. And they can get distracted easily, especially at his age. Have you worked on engagement with him?
> 
> What kind of treats do you use? Do you practice on leash? How long for?


I get the feeling that he refuses. He knows what 'sit' means, but sometimes he just stares at me and refuses until I repeat multiple times. If I have a treat and the more valuable it is, the less repetitions required. This is at home btw. Outside, it's even more difficult.



Samba said:


> In my mind, I can not conceive of pinching a dogs toes as a correction as the term is understood in modern dog training. It is a punishment. The technique does nothing to teach the dog what to DO when greeting people. Dogs need a behavior TO perform. To try to teach them that they should NOT do something leaves them with an open set to choose from and is not as clear. A dog is being punished for happily greeting. Since dogs are associative learners predominantly, the physical aversive is not something I would suggest in the people greeting situation.
> 
> As for the "stubborn" dog. When such things happen, it usually due to something being missed in the training progression. We often assume the dog is more proficient than it is. They don't plot against us.
> 
> ...


How do you define correction as opposed to punishment? Considering that a prong collar is used for correction.



W.Oliver said:


> I do something similar, but I just hold their paws in my hands and talk to them...small talk, nothing specific, with a nice tone. After a while, they are crawling out of their skin for me to let go....and I do...but if they jump again, we repeat the process....and in a matter of days or even hours they've got it....key in either method....consistency. Its funny...I spank my children, but never my GSDs!!!


Haha, they get more than they asked for. I'll try that, but I've been reluctant to hold his paws when he jumps on me, since that might actually encourage him. But I haven't tried talking him into boredom!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

BGSD: find a trainer, find a trainer or enroll in a class
and stop looking for a device.



Achielles UD said:


> Dogs will do what we want when they understand what we want. We just have to show them what it is!





BGSD said:


> I would have to disagree, at least with GSDs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A correction can be given with a pinch collar. I don't use it to punish a dog for doing a behavior. For instance, i have trained my dog to look at me when i give the verbal cue to watch. Now, I might want to have a correction for looking away. I tell him to watch, i give a light pop on the pinch. I take a treat and lure the dog back to looking. Praise and treat. I would do this showing how to respond several times. So now my dog well knows the behavior I want. I have shown him how to respond to the coreection. He knows how to stop the correction and even how to keep it from happening. The dog has control of the correction and confidence in how this works!

So, the dog is not simply doing something I don't want and then I whop him with a collar correction. That is not how a pinch collar is used in training.

We are not looking to stop unwanted behaviors with a surprise aversive on the pinch. The dog is going to see you move and pull the leash as you go to punish. He is going to associate that punishment he didn't understand with you. This is not how I would approach training my dog. It can affect your relationship and is less than fair. Plus, unneccessary.

It is important that you find good training classes and learn principles of good training. Most of us don't have to punish our dogs to get them to behave as we want.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> BGSD: find a trainer, find a trainer or enroll in a class
> and stop looking for a device.


I'm not looking for a device to do all the work. I want to learn how to train my own dog effectively.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

So I am looking at some Herm Sprenger prong collars on amazon and I noticed "lightweight", "mediumweight", "heavyweight", and "xheavyweight". Is this refering to the sizes of the individual prongs? Which is more appropriate for a GSD?








http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_kitchen?_encoding=UTF8&node=1055398&field-brandtextbin=Herm%20Sprenger


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