# Ox z Jirkova Dvora & Caribe z Heranova Vily



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

So in my quest (which seems to be taking a long time!) to find the GSD for me, perusing the threads on this forum, and looking high and low, I think I've finally narrowed it down to two litters that will be happening this year. This is the pairing for one litter that I was hoping to get some opinions on. Ox is currently in the Czech Republic so I really only have videos to go by, but to the untrained eye it's very difficult to really tell how good his work is! The female is actually in the states - about 2 hours from me in fact, but figured might as well throw her video in too. This litter will be born sometime mid-May. 

Link to Ox z Jirkova Dvora CACIT 2010 video:





His pedigree:
VYBORNY Ox z Jirkova dvora - German shepherd dog

The female, Caribe z Heranovy Vily:





Her pedigree:
Caribe z Heranovy vily - German shepherd dog

Any input is appreciated!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I haven't watched the video yet, but I looked at Caribe's pedigree. I am amused that she basically has a very nice German working line pedigree. I like her looks.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Out of curiosity, why do you find it amusing? I figured she was WGWL so thanks for verifying that for me.  Reading pedigrees is still not easy.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ox is a good stud dog.

I don't know anything about the female but if Jiri is using I wouldn't question.

Why this particular litter? I see Jinopo has a few good litters coming up.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Sent you a pm ace


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Verivus said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you find it amusing? I figured she was WGWL so thanks for verifying that for me.  Reading pedigrees is still not easy.


I guess I'm amused because it seems like some people try very hard to make a distinction like "_THIS_ is a Czech dog not a German dog" -- but some of the "Czech" dogs now are almost all German lines.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

What is your goal with the dog? Are you looking for a dog to do schutzhund with?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Yea, I'm going to do Schutzhund and possibly dabble in PP later on.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The female looks young or inexperienced in her video. She seems to have good drive, but she's not strongly committed to the grip--she lets go when startled by the guy behind her and doesn't really hold on firmly when she's working by herself. It seems to be a soft puppy sleeve, too (which isn't a bad thing--but it tells us nothing about how she would bite on a firmer trial sleeve--and is she on the puppy sleeve because she doesn't bite hard or won't stay on if she has to bite hard?)

She might be a very nice dog who has had not much or not great training and I don't see anything that rings any alarm bells, but I'm more impressed by her looks than her working ability as evidenced by that video.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Hm, the female was born in 2007 so she's not that young anymore. Thanks for the input Christine (we have the same name ), greatly appreciated! I think I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board now lol.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

I THink this is in Texas:
Czech Working Dogs Available Puppies


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't know that you need to go back to the drawing board. She might be the perfect type of female to breed to Ox to produce the puppy you want. Can you go visit her? Talk to the breeder about what type of puppies they think she will produce? She did get titled, so she did OK bitework on a trial sleeve on at least two occasions. 

Can you get a look at her scorebook--did she get Pronounced? What about her koerung?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I am interested in the Ox x Bria litter. Bria is a heavily titled female and Ox is one (if not right now the top) of the top producing studs Jinopo has. I wonder what type of pups to expect from this litter.

VELMI DOBRY Bria z Kociciho dvora - German shepherd dog

Mating check:
Mating test - German shepherd dog


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I haven't watched the video yet, but I looked at Caribe's pedigree. I am amused that she basically has a very nice German working line pedigree. I like her looks.


Would this breeding be considered a total outcross?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Would this breeding be considered a total outcross?


Do a mating check and see, whynot?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I think I'll ask Hans why he thinks that litter is the one he suggests I go with. I'll ask him about the Ox x Bria litter too; Bria looks like an awesome girl! There is also a WGWL litter I am considering right now. I do think the Ox x Caribe litter is a total outcross.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Do a mating check and see, whynot?


Did and looked like it but I know nothing when it comes to outcrosses and all.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Verivus said:


> I think I'll ask Hans why he thinks that litter is the one he suggests I go with. I'll ask him about the Ox x Bria litter too; Bria looks like an awesome girl! There is also a WGWL litter I am considering right now. I do think the Ox x Caribe litter is a total outcross.


I would trust him with what he recommended. I got what I asked for when I got my pup, (high drive pup to do PP & SchH). I'll be dammed if I got that and more.

I've learned now to be careful what I ask for... 
I think you will be more than happy with your pup.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I know I have not been working at Sch. long and maybe I am nitpicking but to me the males ob had a lot of forging in it and over there they maybe okay with the dogs shoulder before the knee but that seems odd. Also nice blind search but for the bite he came in dirty and his bark did not belie a presence like it should. On the escape he did really nice and the reattack he did show a good deep bite. I see she is supposedly at the I level so she might get better but I think even then she should have developed a full bite by now since most I should have that.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Ace, I do trust Hans, I'm just curious why he recommends that litter over Bria. Personally I like Bria more then Caribe, though it's easier for me to read Czech pedigrees then German...

And thanks Szariksdad for the input


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Christine, this is what I know of the female:
CARIBE z Heranovy vily
DOB Aug. 31 2007, elbows: 0/0, hips: 0/0,
survey: 2nd class 5CY1/P, DNA reg., titled: IPO1, ZVV1

I did shoot off an email asking more about the breeding.


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## LAPK-9 (May 21, 2011)

I know Hans well and talk to him or email almost on a daily basis. The Ox Caribe litter has 8 males and 2 females. If Hans recommended one litter or puppy over another it is cause he knows what would be better for what it is that you are wanting to do. If I had the space for another dog I would buy a male and a female out of this litter but I don't so I am going to have to live vicariously though a friend that is going to be buying a male and female from this litter....along with the last Bara pup.
~L~


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I actually decided to go with the Ex x Dali litter.


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## LAPK-9 (May 21, 2011)

Verivus - Ex Dali litter will be nice too!! Ex is a super male. If I was able to I would get a pup from that breeding too. I like what Urf and Dali produced and it looks like Dali is a nice producing female. Enjoy the pup that you get


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am going to be nit picky right along with Szariksdad ! I saw anxious , looks around a lot , fidgety when left or in positions , I saw sloppy obedience, I saw a ton of anticipating the routine -- just look at the drop out of motion -- he chews the dumb bell , he takes a dirty swipe at the decoy in the blind and then jumps back as if this is a routine with this dog and the decoy has corrected him so he just jumps out of the range of the correction -- does it 2 or 3 times, I didn't even care for his conformation , falls heavy on the forehand and lots of motion in the back (waves) - no comparison whatsoever with the spectacular French Ring 3 dog YouTube - ‪Vidocq de valsory dit "Ugo"‬‏ , stronger dog even physically 

no comparison with the character of Bart Bellon's dog (Mal) 



 heeling without tripping the handler or half body barricade for fun but look at the control in "positions" which are random 



 
great effort by young lady and her Germanenquelle GSD 



 
if a dog is bells and whistles tooted top of the top why so ? 

enjoy the videos 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

That first one is very nice


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

The second one is great. I love the backwards stuff!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't know what's amusing about this breeding at all....looks like the breeding of my male. I happen to think my male is a solid well thought out breeding. That he happens to have Czech dogs inter bred with German working lines is the sign of breeders that are breeding for the total package. Its so hard for some to let those different lines go, just my opinion but the more progressive breeders are mixing certain lines depending on what they are breeding for. Ox is a very well bred dog, who just happens to be composed of Czech and German dogs. Equidius kennels has been mixing German and Czech for 4 to 5 generations, so doesn't that make them Czech dogs. 
I think the quality of the puppy in this litter will be based entirely on the individual puppy selected. There will be some very strong pups for sport and there will be others that are solid dogs but not top level sport....but out of any workingline litter of 10 you would get the same thing. Hans and Jiri have been doing this thing for many many years with many very good dogs....I think they have an excellent handle on producing what you ask for....right Ace?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I personally like the breeding of Ox quite a bit. His grandfathers are Xac z PS and Dargo Ha Ja Da. Xac coming from Gero known for his work ethic and good aggression,(but also a dog to keep with strong hipped dogs), and Dargo a legend in his own right sired by Grim z PS, another nice dog. Gero tended to produce more of the real dogs and is often found in Czech Police dogs, and Grim is known for producing many dogs with the drives for competitive sport as he was himself.The dams bred to Xac and Dargo are both sired by German working lines, in Baro and Quasy. Quasy was the top sport dog one year and is linebred on Anderl vom Kleinen Phahl,4,5-5. Quasy's mother was a Timmy Narbarschaft daughter bringing in strong aggression traits. Baro goes back to Eros v Busecker Schloss and Bert von Haus Knufken. There are some real nice balances in Ox with strong sport working and strong real working....look at his tail carriage in his protection work....we see this often with the successful patrol dogs. I really like the way that Ox is built.JMO.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I think the quality of the puppy in this litter will be based entirely on the individual puppy selected. There will be some very strong pups for sport and there will be others that are solid dogs but not top level sport....but out of any workingline litter of 10 you would get the same thing. Hans and Jiri have been doing this thing for many many years with many very good dogs....I think they have an excellent handle on producing what you ask for....right Ace?


I agree. It all depends on what puppy you get. LOL...yeah you are right in that they will give you what you are looking for. Mess around and get what you ask for and then some. 

I would pay close attention to the mothers working videos but not too much. There is a reason why they used this female and it may have to do more with the german bloodline. Her mother was bred to Illo, Nike and I think a few others. I wish I had some more info on the progeny as well as Caribe's littermates. You do have to cross in some german in there to help "re-energize" the bloodlines or they get too narrow. Look at who Jinopo is using now mainly as a stud dog since acquiring him....Charik Galan Nalag. A west german dog. Different breedings to see what he produces and to help add new life in the lines.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I personally like the breeding of Ox quite a bit. His grandfathers are Xac z PS and Dargo Ha Ja Da. Xac coming from Gero known for his work ethic and good aggression,(but also a dog to keep with strong hipped dogs), and Dargo a legend in his own right sired by Grim z PS, another nice dog. Gero tended to produce more of the real dogs and is often found in Czech Police dogs, and Grim is known for producing many dogs with the drives for competitive sport as he was himself.The dams bred to Xac and Dargo are both sired by German working lines, in Baro and Quasy. Quasy was the top sport dog one year and is linebred on Anderl vom Kleinen Phahl,4,5-5. Quasy's mother was a Timmy Narbarschaft daughter bringing in strong aggression traits. Baro goes back to Eros v Busecker Schloss and Bert von Haus Knufken. There are some real nice balances in Ox with strong sport working and strong real working....look at his tail carriage in his protection work....we see this often with the successful patrol dogs. I really like the way that Ox is built.JMO.


Yes and going back to the dam's side, Oni Honajzer name sticks out to me. Looks like she was a good producing female (just check out her progeny) and going back you do see a number of Grafental's in the PED as well. A good amount of german influence as well.

Your significant dogs in the Ox x Bria mating would be Ori z Danaru & Dargo (R.I.P.)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

There's not much more I can add that others haven't already stated, but like Cliff, I *really* like this breeding.

I am looking at *very similar* lines for my next working dog as well. 

Dargo is a favorite of mine and I have met and watched some his progeny work and I have been impressed every time.


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I am going to be nit picky right along with Szariksdad ! I saw anxious , looks around a lot , fidgety when left or in positions , I saw sloppy obedience, I saw a ton of anticipating the routine -- just look at the drop out of motion -- he chews the dumb bell , he takes a dirty swipe at the decoy in the blind and then jumps back as if this is a routine with this dog and the decoy has corrected him so he just jumps out of the range of the correction -- does it 2 or 3 times, I didn't even care for his conformation , falls heavy on the forehand and lots of motion in the back (waves) - no comparison whatsoever with the spectacular French Ring 3 dog YouTube - ‪Vidocq de valsory dit "Ugo"‬‏ , stronger dog even physically
> 
> no comparison with the character of Bart Bellon's dog (Mal) YouTube - ‪Bart Bellon‬‏ heeling without tripping the handler or half body barricade for fun but look at the control in "positions" which are random YouTube - ‪BART BELLON AND THOR - BACKWARD‬‏
> 
> ...


The litter is all sold so this is not a promotion of any kind. My coment is this. 
1. Breed genetics and not titles!
2. Do not breed extreme dogs. That is detriment to the breed. GSD is not extreme sport dog as unfortuantelly many would like to have it, but it is versatile dog.
Hans


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> The female looks young or inexperienced in her video. She seems to have good drive, but she's not strongly committed to the grip--she lets go when startled by the guy behind her and doesn't really hold on firmly when she's working by herself. It seems to be a soft puppy sleeve, too (which isn't a bad thing--but it tells us nothing about how she would bite on a firmer trial sleeve--and is she on the puppy sleeve because she doesn't bite hard or won't stay on if she has to bite hard?)
> 
> She might be a very nice dog who has had not much or not great training and I don't see anything that rings any alarm bells, but I'm more impressed by her looks than her working ability as evidenced by that video.


 She lets go when "startled" because it is not startled thing but command to let go. I guess if she would not let go then you would point that out . 
Hans


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