# "professionally trained" Service Dogs



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I just found (and posted) the full text of the law proposed in Watertown, NY that would ban all dogs from public events in the city. That thread is located here - http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-ban-all-dogs-public-events.html#post2335761 

Among the text is the following paragraph below, bolding mine. 



> There shall be excluded from this section any owner of a dog which is defined under Section 108 of the New York Agriculture and Markets Law, as the same may be amended from time to time, as a guide dog, hearing dog, service dog, working search dog, therapy dog, detection dog, war dog, or any other dog which may be utilized by law enforcement agencies within the jurisdiction of the City, or *which are professionally trained service animals utilized by persons with disabilities*.


I thought this may be worth discussing.

New York's Agriculture and Markets Law waives licensing fees for the types of dogs listed above, provided that you can prove your animal falls into one of those categories. My dog is a therapy dog, registered with TDI, so it is very easy for me to prove that she is a Therapy Dog - I just have to show her TDI ID card when I renew my dog license. I expect it would work the same at any of these events, as Therapy Dogs would be exempt from the ban.

However, where this gets weird is with Service Dogs because, as you all know, they are NOT REQUIRED to have any sort of license, picture ID or identification on them - and the Service Dog IDs that you commonly see are those bought over the Internet that anyone can buy.

So this law would likely make it so that people who are legitimately disabled and legitimately use a trained Service Dog would be discriminated against. Particularly since the wording stipulates "any professionally trained service animal". Emphasis on "professionally trained" - which would exclude owner/handler trained dogs.

Opinions?


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

Therapy dogs are not allowed in public venues that have rules baring animals? They do not have auto access rights so I am very confused by what you have written.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> So this law would likely make it so that people who are legitimately disabled and legitimately use a trained Service Dog would be discriminated against. Particularly since the wording stipulates "any professionally trained service animal". Emphasis on "professionally trained" - which would exclude owner/handler trained dogs.


They are opening themselves up to a lot of trouble. Wonder if this mayor is aware that the ban is in direct violation of Fed. Civil Rights Law and the Dept. of Justice? 

_"A public accommodation shall not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal."_

Above quote from Title III - New Section Regarding Service Animals Added
Published in the Federal Register in August 2010

PART 36 - NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF DISABILITY IN PUBLIC
ACCOMMODATIONS AND COMMERCIAL FACILITIES (as amended by the title
III final rule signed by Attorney General Holder on July 23, 2010)
Authority: 5 U.S.C. 301; 28 U.S.C. 509, 510; 42 U.S.C. 12186(b).
Subpart C -- Specific Requirements


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Therapy dogs are not allowed in public venues that have rules baring animals? They do not have auto access rights so I am very confused by what you have written.


Have you read the link I posted in the first paragraph?

In a nutshell, the city of Watertown is attempting to ban all dogs from outdoor public events that are held on city property. Those include parades, the farmer's market, fairs, events at the park, etc. Basically any event that will draw a lot of people.

They would also be banned from within 20ft of any playgrounds, from organized sporting events (like kids' soccer games) and the like, if those are on "public" (city-owned) property. If would even bar you from bringing your dog to a dog event (like a dog show at the fairgrounds) if the dog is not competing in the event.

All of these events currently allow PET dogs to attend without restrictions, both in Watertown and in the majority of towns in this country.

Under the proposed ban, which would make it illegal to bring your dogs to such an event, they have listed a number of "exceptions" that would still be allowed, while PET dogs would no longer be allowed. A Therapy Dog, although not a service animal, would still be allowed at these events. A Search-and-Rescue dog would still be allowed. As would, of course, Service Dogs. But your family PET would no longer be allowed.

Make more sense?



> Wonder if this mayor is aware that the ban is in direct violation of Fed. Civil Rights Law and the Dept. of Justice?


Probably not.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

Yes, that clears it up some, thank you. Living where I do, I am already used to pet dogs not being allowed in all of the above mentioned function places. These are rules against dogs being in public anywhere that are sweeping the whole nation. The only thing it results in are un socialized dogs because they are not allowed anywhere.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's where I expect a lot of people to go online and get fake service dog IDs, so they can take their pets out with them....
To be quite honest - I probably would. In this situation, I would tell them Ozzy is a seizure alert dog, get him a little vest and fake ID (since it states professionally trained, so an ID might look more legit) so I could take him to places like dog events (that he's not competing in), and the like. Would I do it to get him into stores? No. But this makes socializing their dogs much, much harder for people, forcing them to resort to doing things they may otherwise not do. My guess? Less socialized dogs, more dog bites, more dog bans....


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,846 










Here's where I expect a lot of people to go online and get fake service dog IDs, so they can take their pets out with them....
To be quite honest - I probably would. In this situation, I would tell them Ozzy is a seizure alert dog, get him a little vest and fake ID (since it states professionally trained, so an ID might look more legit) so I could take him to places like dog events (that he's not competing in), and the like

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,846 










Here's where I expect a lot of people to go online and get fake service dog IDs, so they can take their pets out with them....
To be quite honest - I probably would. In this situation, I would tell them Ozzy is a seizure alert dog, get him a little vest and fake ID (since it states professionally trained, so an ID might look more legit) so I could take him to places like dog events (that he's not competing in), and the like
To be quite honest - I probably would. In this situation, I would tell them Ozzy is a seizure alert dog, get him a little vest and fake ID (since it states professionally trained, so an ID might look more legit) so I could take him to places like dog events



That kind of dishonesty makes it harder on the folks that need the assistance dogs. That is very wrong.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anyone that gets a fake ID for their non-service dog would just be asking for the biggest lawsuit ever if their dog ever did anything. I don't like the sound of the law, but if you think you're going to get around it by getting these fake tags then I wish you all the best. I know people think their dog will never bite/hurt anyone, but on that off chance that someone steps on their tail, or falls over them, you will be in a world of hurt. Not only will the fact that your dog truly isn't a service dog come out, but you illegally brought them into the place by falsifying their credentials.

There are other places to socialize your dog that are legal, you don't need a parade ground or a fair to see that many people. My dog didn't go to an extremely crowded public space until he was almost one, and he did perfectly fine and was very well behaved. There's no reason to make things bigger than they are, dogs don't need to go to public places with a ton of people in order to be well mannered and not bite.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

Unfortunately many will feel they are entitled to have their dogs where they are not allowed and service dogs/their handlers will be penalized for the fakers.

I am against people faking service dogs and all for a government process to certify and license all service dogs. A need to weed out the liars and weed out improperly trained dogs being passed off as trained service dogs exists. I believe an epidemic of poorly trained and false dogs are on the rise from both scam trainers and people that just want to take their dogs in public.

Training classes and dog sport venues are the proper and legal way to socialize your dogs. Your dog does not need to be conformationally correct to be part of either option.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Training classes and dog sport venues are the proper and legal way to socialize your dogs. Your dog does not need to be conformationally correct to be part of either option. 


I agree. Also petco and petsmart allow dogs inside. there is no reason to be dishonest to socialize. folks do it all the time.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

The direction this discussion has taken is exactly why I posted the excerpt from the proposed law. 

The way the law is written, you would not be able to bring your dog anywhere where there is "projected to be" a large number of people. You would also be banned from bringing your dog to dog events you are not competing in. And from within 20ft of any playground. And to your kid's soccer game or t-ball game. 

Think about that for a second. 

The granny watching her granddaughters who's been walking them to the playground every afternoon along with her little dog? Can't take the kids and the dog together anymore because the dog is no longer allowed within 20ft of the playground. The active family whose kids are involved in soccer who've been bringing their Lab puppy to games since they got her? Can't do that anymore, either. Bob who lives a block from the main road where they have all the parades and walks his dog around the block everyday ... can't do it while the parade is on or while a craft fair shuts down the whole road for two days.

Now they are proposing to make exceptions - obviously, Service Dogs *have* to be exempt because they are medical equipment that a person with disabilities relies on to do things ... like go to the market or attend an event. But the way the law is written, it stipulates that the dog must be "professionally trained" - which is in violation of federal law but which also means that people who use Service Dogs and go to these events will be subjected to even more hassle and questioning and rudeness than they already are being in public with their dogs everyday.

The exceptions are also vague and odd, if you think about it. Therapy Dogs are excepted - yet they are the personal pets of their handlers. They don't go through loads and loads of public access training like Service Dogs (should) go through. Same with SAR dogs - even a working SAR dog is still his/her handler's pet when they're not called in to do a search and they also don't go through public access training like Service Dogs (should).



> Living where I do, I am already used to pet dogs not being allowed in all of the above mentioned function places.


Is this a recent thing in Virginia Beach? 

I lived in Hayes prior to moving to upstate New York and we have done tons of events in Virginia with our dogs in Virginia Beach, Yorktown, Hampton, Newport News, you name it. We've never once heard or been told that dogs were not allowed and considering the number of other dogs we've met at all of those events, neither did anyone else.



> There are other places to socialize your dog that are legal, you don't need a parade ground or a fair to see that many people.


We're not talking about "parade grounds" - we're talking about Main Street (or, well, in the case of Watertown, NY, we're talking about Washington Street). Why should someone who lives on Washington Street not be able to walk out to the curb with their dog to enjoy the parade and expose their dog to all the things a parade offers?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I also think there's a big difference between needing to do something and being able to do something. Just because you don't need to go to events to socialize your dog doesn't mean you should be banned from doing so ... or that you should be banned from walking your dog to the playground with your kids.

I also don't need to put my dog through training classes ... but should I be banned from doing so? I don't think so.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Quote: There are other places to socialize your dog that are legal, you don't need a parade ground or a fair to see that many people.





> We're not talking about "parade grounds" - we're talking about Main Street (or, well, in the case of Watertown, NY, we're talking about Washington Street). Why should someone who lives on Washington Street not be able to walk out to the curb with their dog to enjoy the parade and expose their dog to all the things a parade offers?


But that above was a response to a poster who said they would fake a service dog in order to take their dog to a parade/fair/etc.

I agree the law is absurd - but there is NEVER a valid reason to fake a service dog.
EVER


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Barb E said:


> But that above was a response to a poster who said they would fake a service dog in order to take their dog to a parade/fair/etc.
> 
> I agree the law is absurd - but there is NEVER a valid reason to fake a service dog.
> EVER


I don't really go to any fairs or parades. 

However, I do go to things like Barktober Fest, Woofstock, and other dog related events that bring a lot of people and dogs. It is encouraged to bring new dogs to flyball demos and tournaments, even if they're not competing, to get them accustomed to the hectic environment. Say you have a dog that you're training for agility. Does well in the class, does well with at home training, does well with socializing where permitted. Take them to their first trial with all the chaos, all the people, all the dogs - chances are, if they've never been exposed to that kind of environment, they won't perform well.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Konotashi said:


> I don't really go to any fairs or parades.
> 
> However, I do go to things like Barktober Fest, Woofstock, and other dog related events that bring a lot of people and dogs. It is encouraged to bring new dogs to flyball demos and tournaments, even if they're not competing, to get them accustomed to the hectic environment. Say you have a dog that you're training for agility. Does well in the class, does well with at home training, does well with socializing where permitted. Take them to their first trial with all the chaos, all the people, all the dogs - chances are, if they've never been exposed to that kind of environment, they won't perform well.


I stand behind what I said.

It's NEVER ok to fake a service dog, any place, any time, for any reason.
EVER


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

It's NEVER ok to fake a service dog, any place, any time, for any reason.
EVER 






I agree!!!!!!!! Good grief,I have been training police service dogs for 25 years and have been able to socialize youngsters without resorting to that kind of fraud. One has to use their imagination. AND if the dog has a solid temperament the dog will adjust quickly to different environments. If not, dog is a wash anyway for work


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

I could not agree more with you Ladylaw.


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## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

I was glad I found this thread as had an experience recently with a 'service dog' in a hospital...(where I work)and the validity of what the owner told me and wondered if I should report it? The dog was brought into the hospital by a family member and had a service dog vest on. Being in that it was a GSD, I approached the owner and started a conversation and asked what the dog was trained for ... (blood pressure or sugar fluctuations, seizures,etc)She indicated it was 'trained' to help her keep her balance on stairs and she had trained it herself.When I asked which organization she trained with, she said she just did her own training with no affiliation and was' told' that it was acceptable to make him her 'service dog' and take him everyplace with her. She was a nice lady but evidently is a long time 'breeder' in the area with many GSDs at home and is very lacking in proper information on the breed and dog care in general. 
There is also a patient who comes in with his 'service dog'(a great dane) who he acquired from a rescue and uses this dog's picture on his REAL service dogs' badge... the official service dog passed away a while back. He truely loves the dog but it doesn't appear he gives it proper care. 

So it just makes you wonder how many 'service dogs' are trained and certified and how many are just companion dogs that people keep with them for company with fake credentialing on them!! And don't know any better!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know several service dogs who are owner trained. I don't think there is a problem with this? But, I thought one needed medicalndocumentation of need?

Our dogs won a first place plaque in the Christmas parade! Hope the town does not go the way of Watertown!


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## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

So it is OK for a dog owner to self train for their own needs and declare the dog a service dog?? The elderly man with the GD is limited to using a scooter and said he has trained the dog to alert to his blood pressure dropping and will go to the neighbors house for help if it can't awaken him. I guess I can't imagine him with the capablity to do this sort of training with the dog. . . but he's a really nice old man so if it makes him happy to have a dog at his side in a hospital room I'm not going to make waves for him. I just feel sorry for the dog as he keeps running over it's feet with the scooter and brought him into the hospital with fleas and allergies. 

But, both people provided their own 'service dog' classification for their dogs based on their health needs and it's OK to do this?? These are official service dogs?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> But, both people provided their own 'service dog' classification for their dogs based on their health needs and it's OK to do this?? These are official service dogs?


We have many threads in this section on this topic for further reading.

Per the ADA/Dept of Justice:
_“Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not service animals for the purposes of this definition. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the handler´s disability. Examples of work or tasks include, but are not limited to, assisting individuals who are blind or have low vision with navigation and other tasks, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to the presence of people or sounds, providing non-violent protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, assisting an individual during a seizure, alerting individuals to the presence of allergens, retrieving items such as medicine or the telephone, providing physical support and assistance with balance and stability to individuals with mobility disabilities, and helping persons with psychiatric and neurological disabilities by preventing or interrupting impulsive or destructive behaviors. The crime deterrent effects of an animal´s presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition.”_


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> So it is OK for a dog owner to self train for their own needs and declare the dog a service dog??


In the U.S., it is legal for someone to train their own dog and many people do though most with the help of a professional trainer. The handler must be legally (not just medically) disabled per the ADA. 

*****



> brought him into the hospital with fleas and allergies.


A hospital can ask someone to remove any dog including a SD if the dog is dirty, has any visible skin problems, or vermin (fleas, ticks, mites). 

_"A place of public accommodation must modify its policies to allow a service animal to accompany an individual with a disability, unless it would result in a fundamental alteration or would jeopardize the safe operation of the public accommodation."_


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## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

Thank you for enlightening me to the federal definition of what a service dog is and that it is OK to self train. The only thing I still don't understand is how can a person self train for their own medical needs if the need is for, say, high/low blood pressure or blood sugar fluctuations . Training one to assist with a person's physical needs is understandable and very obvious thru the dogs' performance that he's adequately trained to 'do his job', but self training to alert to physiological changes even before the person is aware of the event seems it would take an experienced trainer at best. Shouldn't these dogs be tested and certified by some overseeing professional organization to determine that they are proficient at doing the job they've been trained for before being classified as an offical service dog? And shouldn't the people who use these dogs be educated in the basic health and nutritional needs of the dogs?

By no means am I opposed to people training their own service dogs to meet their needs for medical disablities if they are capable and knowledgeable enough to be able to do it themselves. But it does bother me to think a person is expecting physical demands of a dog with probable hip dysplasia because no one is overseeing the welfare of the dog and the owner doesn't know any better.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> But that above was a response to a poster who said they would fake a service dog in order to take their dog to a parade/fair/etc.
> 
> I agree the law is absurd - but there is NEVER a valid reason to fake a service dog.
> EVER


Yes, I am aware that the response was to the poster who said they would pretend their dog is a Service Dog in order to still be able to take dogs. But I was also addressing the response as it stands by itself. Because yes, it may not be "needed" to go to places such as fairs and parades, but I think it's ludicrous that you would be banned from even having that option to do so if you wanted to.

You already know that I am 100% against fake Service Dogs ... I'm forever ranting about them, after all. 



> It is encouraged to bring new dogs to flyball demos and tournaments, even if they're not competing, to get them accustomed to the hectic environment.


Yup ... and under the way Watertown's law is worded, you would not be allowed to bring your dog unless your dog was entered to compete ... or left in the car. XD



> She indicated it was 'trained' to help her keep her balance on stairs and she had trained it herself.When I asked which organization she trained with, she said she just did her own training with no affiliation and was' told' that it was acceptable to make him her 'service dog' and take him everyplace with her.


This type of dog would be considered a mobility assistance dogs. These dogs help people with issues balancing or other physical handicaps do things such as going up and down stairs, keeping steady on uneven ground, or even help them get off the ground if they've fallen. The dog does this by acting as a brace that the owner can use to steady themselves or help themselves off the ground.

If she is considered legally disabled - meaning she has a disability that significantly impacts major life tasks (like walking, for example) - she has every right to a Service Dog. She is also well within her rights to train her own dog - there is no requirements for dogs to be trained by an organization or professional trainer in order to be considered Service Dogs. The requirements that need to be met is that the handler is legally disabled and the dog is trained specific tasks (in the plural) that help the handler with his/her specific disability.


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## Dylan (May 13, 2011)

I know of at least 3 GSD owners with "fake" service dogs.


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

I think they should be exposed if they are fake. Peer pressure does wonderful thing to bad people when truths get out.


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