# 13yr Old - Don't know what to do



## ludohowes

Hi, 
New here but looking for some advice from other GSD owners about what to do...

Our 13-year-old boy

has anal furunculosis - Vet diagnosed around 4 months ago during lockdown, but we're not able to treat this with drugs owing to his age and our current financial position. He manages to eat and poop as normal (more on this later) but his back end does look sore (we clean it and use nappy cream etc) and sometimes he does look to be struggling to squat to empty himself. He staggers around whilst doing it rather than just doing it in one spot as he used to.
is showing signs of dementia - not coming when called (could be deafness?), trying to eat/steal food constantly (Despite being fed more these days than ever), doesn't often want to play or interact with anyone, spends a lot of the day sleeping and just looking generally a bit sadder than normal, sometimes barks to be let in when the door is wide open, has started eating his own poop etc.
poops formed stools in the house a couple of times a week (despite having just been let out) and sometimes it just drops out without him seeming to know it's happened, usually when going up/down steps. No diarreah and not in his sleep. Doesn't ever tell us he needs to go out anymore. No pee incontinence.
has started struggling with his hips and hind legs - he can get up and down the stairs but if he is laid down for a long time he struggles to get up, sometimes his back legs wobble when walking, his whole backend seems to droop lower on his hind legs as the day goes on into the evening. Vet advised he has arthritis in back legs when she diagnosed the furunculosis.
Has a large mass on his ribcage which has been there for around 12 months, vet again didn't seem concerned due to age but not sure if this could be contributing to all of the above.

On top of all of this, we have a new baby due in December (we already have a 3 year old) and I am struggling to envisage having to look after him soiling the house (and in all likelihood getting worse as time goes on with all of the other things above) once the new baby is here.
He seems mostly ok in himself apart from all of the above, and just doesn't seem in a place to be able to think about putting him down yet, but I certainly don't want him to get to the point where he is in considerable pain with his legs or butt, and then put him to sleep....I feel like it would be kinder to consider this sooner rather than later, but is just a really hard decision when he's seemingly relatively active and not in huge amounts of pain (he doesn't show that he is). I don't think given all the above rehoming him would be an option. 

Just looking for help and advice really from those who may have been in this situation before.


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## Sabis mom

You already know the answer. I'm sorry.


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## WNGD

Sabis said exactly what I was going to say....exactly. I think you're really asking for permission or confirmation that what you know is the right thing to do, is the right thing to do.

"He seems mostly ok in himself apart from all of the above" 

"I certainly don't want him to get to the point where he is in considerable pain with his legs or butt, and then put him to sleep"

"I feel like it would be kinder to consider this sooner rather than later, but is just a really hard decision".

GSD are notorious for not showing pain. Then there's just needless discomfort and they do feel what I would call embarrassment or shame when they lose control. The problem with saying you don't want to wait until they are in obvious pain/distress is that we all know it's coming and you're still waiting. Do the right thing in your opinion but please do the right thing for your dog above all.
Especially with the new baby situation, I found the best thing was to make a decision and appointment and take a few days to really spoil him and enjoy him. Say goodbye on beautiful and peaceful terms. He deserves that.


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## wolfy dog

I second Sabi's. Why would you add more miserable days to this sweet dog's life? A dog that has been house broken all his life, now soiling the house he kept so neatly clean is doing poorly. Adding all his other ailments. Life has an expiration time. Don't feel guilty when you assist him in passing to the other side. Wishing you strength.
I told my 3 year old when our bunny was struggling to die that we were going to help her die. We sat next to her, petted her and told her it was OK to go (I had explained it in kids' terms). We didn't have to take her to the vet but it was as if she felt the permission to die and she did, right then with us. We buried her together.


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## Sunsilver

Last thing we did before leaving my 92 year old mom's bedside, the night she suffered a SECOND major stroke, and was comatose, was give her permission to let go. She passed about 4 hours later. :'(

I believe it helps both the dying person/animal, and the person that's going to lose them to do this.


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## ludohowes

Thank you everyone, I think you're right in that we are probably delaying the inevitable and waiting for him to actually show he is in pain etc which would be cruel and what we are trying to avoid. And that I am ultimately asking for permission to do what I think is right but seems wrong? I don't want to feel like there is a deadline but the new baby is making it this way. 

He just seems too 'alert' (don't know how else to phrase it) without all the ailments above, still eating and drinking and generally doesn't 'acts like an old dog. I feel like I've painted a picture of a dog who poops in the house constantly and just lays about and cant walk when this isn't the case. We often get comments of how well he looks and acts for his age and that when you 'know you know' and maybe he is not quite there yet.

But I think when he was diagnosed with anal furunculosis we knew what was coming, my husband cried when he came home from the vets, so I feel like the vet must have also given that impression to him without having actually said it outright. This was around March/April time and I would say the poop incidents are getting more frequent since then etc.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think it's crazy talk to put an elderly dog down for occasional incontinence. Just because a dog is older and needs a little help getting around, it shouldn't mean the death penalty.


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## Springbrz

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think it's crazy talk to put an elderly dog down for occasional incontinence. Just because a dog is older and needs a little help getting around, it shouldn't mean the death penalty.



Death penalty are harsh words. I think euthanizing a young healthy animal for no other reason than it's inconvenience or lack of finding a home is a death penalty. Euthanizing an old animal with health issues with breed/species age limits nearing without causing suffering is a kind, generous and selfless thing to do. 
It's about death with dignity. Quality of life over quantity of live. No one knows for sure if tomorrow brings a good day or an absolute horrible day for our beloved pets. All anyone can do is look at the situation before them and make the best judgement call they can with the information they have, the eyes they see the situation with and the heart they feel with. 
We all anthropomorphize our pets to some degree. We have to be doing so or they wouldn't be pets with happy lives and joy for living. We wouldn't see them as loving creatures with all the values we put on them. If we didn't there would be no euthanizing and we would just let nature be and take them on it's own. But the human compassion in us for our pets thinks letting nature be in these cases is cruel. So we should not judge others for a decision we don't agree with because we are not in their situation and don't see what they see in their pets quality of life. So to that end...

@ludohowes only you see your dog and it's quality of life. Quality of life is the key factor here. I wish you strength and peace in your decision on when is the right time.


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## Sabis mom

ludohowes said:


> Thank you everyone, I think you're right in that we are probably delaying the inevitable and waiting for him to actually show he is in pain etc which would be cruel and what we are trying to avoid. And that I am ultimately asking for permission to do what I think is right but seems wrong? I don't want to feel like there is a deadline but the new baby is making it this way.
> 
> He just seems too 'alert' (don't know how else to phrase it) without all the ailments above, still eating and drinking and generally doesn't 'acts like an old dog. I feel like I've painted a picture of a dog who poops in the house constantly and just lays about and cant walk when this isn't the case. We often get comments of how well he looks and acts for his age and that when you 'know you know' and maybe he is not quite there yet.
> 
> But I think when he was diagnosed with anal furunculosis we knew what was coming, my husband cried when he came home from the vets, so I feel like the vet must have also given that impression to him without having actually said it outright. This was around March/April time and I would say the poop incidents are getting more frequent since then etc.


If the old guy is happy, healthy and pain free then you need only keep him clean. And you do owe him that. 
Your first post seemed like that was not the case.
I lost Sabi to DM. And I can clearly and without guilt say I made the right call. She was riddled with tumors and too old for invasive surgery. She was miserable about her lack of mobility. She despised needing help to stand and walk. She was upset when she fell down and she was frustrated that she couldn't follow me everywhere.
Had it been simply a matter of tending her, I would not have made the same decision.
You need to have a chat with your dog. Decide if he is still happy and mostly pain free.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Springbrz said:


> Death penalty are harsh words. I think euthanizing a young healthy animal for no other reason than it's inconvenience or lack of finding a home is a death penalty. Euthanizing an old animal with health issues with breed/species age limits nearing without causing suffering is a kind, generous and selfless thing to do.
> It's about death with dignity. Quality of life over quantity of live. No one knows for sure if tomorrow brings a good day or an absolute horrible day for our beloved pets. All anyone can do is look at the situation before them and make the best judgement call they can with the information they have, the eyes they see the situation with and the heart they feel with.
> We all anthropomorphize our pets to some degree. We have to be doing so or they wouldn't be pets with happy lives and joy for living. We wouldn't see them as loving creatures with all the values we put on them. If we didn't there would be no euthanizing and we would just let nature be and take them on it's own. But the human compassion in us for our pets thinks letting nature be in these cases is cruel. So we should not judge others for a decision we don't agree with because we are not in their situation and don't see what they see in their pets quality of life. So to that end...
> 
> @ludohowes only you see your dog and it's quality of life. Quality of life is the key factor here. I wish you strength and peace in your decision on when is the right time.


Perhaps reread OP's post. 

"He seems mostly ok in himself apart from all of the above, and just doesn't seem in a place to be able to think about putting him down yet, " 

The dog is aging. Of course he has aches and pains. Who kills an old dog because he needs a hand up or a little more time to get moving? That's not about the dog's comfort. That's about the owner's discomfort caring for an aging dog.


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## Shefali

If you decide it's time to let him go, pick a date and give him a few weeks of total pampering and love. This is a really hard decision to make because we love our dogs and want the best for them. Quality of life matters, though. If he just occasionally poops in the house - that's one thing. But it sounds like there is more going on. And if he is avoiding being with the people he loves - that could be a sign he's in pain. Animals often isolate themselves when they know they are dying. 

Anyway, maybe talk to the vet again before you make the final decision. I had a friend who kept her corgi in diapers. However, I think in her case, she was selfish in keeping the dog alive as long as she did. He was obviously suffering but she didn't want to let him go. If you talk to your vet and get a realistic understanding of what you can expect in the next few months... that might help you make the best decision.


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## Shefali

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Perhaps reread OP's post.
> 
> "He seems mostly ok in himself apart from all of the above, and just doesn't seem in a place to be able to think about putting him down yet, "
> 
> The dog is aging. Of course he has aches and pains. Who kills an old dog because he needs a hand up or a little more time to get moving? That's not about the dog's comfort. That's about the owner's discomfort caring for an aging dog.


I think if you can give the dog a pill and clean up poop - yeah, don't put the dog down. Even with a new baby - maybe your husband can help more, or you can get the dog fitted with diapers, or something. But there could be more going on, so I think she needs to talk to the vet and get the straight scoop.

My last dog, the last year of her life, she suffered really badly from arthritis and she had incontinence issues. Well, it's part of aging. I gave her cosequin, bought her a yoga mat for her food bowl (she stood on the mat and it helped stabilize her), took her swimming once a week in a friend's pool (which also helped with the arthritis) and cleaned up poop. At some point though, I knew it was time to let her go.

She wasn't in obvious, chronic pain but she had gotten to the point where I knew if I waited much longer she wouldn't be able to walk on her own and I didn't want her to go through that. Plus, honestly, I am not sure I would have been able to carry her, etc.

The thing is, you can seldom "time" these things perfectly. And I hate to say this, but letting them go a little too soon is often less selfish than waiting a little too long. The first pet I put down - I think I waited a little too long and she suffered because of it.


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## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think it's crazy talk to put an elderly dog down for occasional incontinence. *Just because a dog is older and needs a little help getting around*, it shouldn't mean the death penalty.


But that's obviously not the case here.


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## MineAreWorkingline

WNGD said:


> But that's obviously not the case here.


Reread what OP posted. It absolutely is the case here.


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## Sunsilver

There are numerous web pages out there that help you assess your dog's quality of life. Suggest you look at a few of them to help you make that decision.

My 13 year old suffered an episode of vestibular disease back in June, and numerous people were convinced it was time for me to put her down, but I'd been through this with my previous GSD, and I knew she could recover. The vet (who's been practicing 37 years) agreed, and told me most dogs recover in 7 to 10 days. It took her longer than that, and she still has a head tilt, and her balance is a bit off. But when I took her to our favourite park to play ball, and her face lit up and she started dancing as soon as she saw the ball, I KNEW I'd made the right choice!

With the dog I had to put down 3 years ago, it was one of those situations where he was eating and drinking fine, but his rear end was going on him due to arthritis. While I was away at work, he'd sometimes not be able to stand up, and I'd come home to find him lying there, sometimes in his own poop. 

If I'd had someone living at home to watch him, or if I hadn't had to work such long hours, I might have bought him a doggie wheelchair. Even just being there, to help him up when he needed it would have made a difference. But I couldn't afford either of those things, and it just wasn't fair to him to have to lie there struggling for hours on end. And he was 14 years old, so surgery for his back problems wasn't really an option.

It's been 3 years, and have to confess, I still sometimes second guess my decision... 😢


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## WNGD

Shefali said:


> The thing is, you can seldom "time" these things perfectly. And I hate to say this, but *letting them go a little too soon is often less selfish than waiting a little too long.* The first pet I put down - I think I waited a little too long and she suffered because of it.


I think that happens 10-1 waiting too long over "a little too soon". The downside vs the upside doesn't even compare.

A few more weeks or months of an already compromised life (which if we're honest with ourselves is really for us), is not worth the very real and obvious chance that we end up with a dog in real and painful distress.

It's not a death sentence whatsoever, it's the kind and compassionate (and responsible) thing to do.


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## ludohowes

That's exactly it, I just want it to be the 'right' time and I'm not sure when that will be...thats the hardest part. The pooping is getting very gradually worse, the anal furunculosis isn't going anywhere without ££££s spent each month, the arthritis I know I can help but the reality is he is 13 and is either going to suddenly get even worse (as I said he had a large 15cm diameter mass on his ribs which could be cancer, could be nothing) or is slowly going to deteriorate and all the things that aren't hurting him much now, will do in weeks/months/years time. Who knows?

I do need to think about the baby (the toddler is old enough to tell us when Ludo has had an accident and not go near it)...it's not great to have a baby potentially picking up dog poop in the house or crawling around on soiled carpets in a years time. It's getting more frequent now so if he does plod on for more time I can only imagine this element of his aging getting increasingly worse to the point where he only does it in the house - we have a friend who had a shepherd who has DM and would wake up in the night having pooped and rolled around in it without knowing and this went on a while before they did the kind thing, and this is absolutely what I am trying to avoid. A young dog being incontinent I would absolutely have no qualms with spending money on treatments and diapers and/or rehoming if necessary, but our dog is 13 so I just feel like I need to keep his dignity intact whilst not prolonging the inevitable. 

Also, I have been working from home since March, so lucky that I have been home to look after him and let him out more regularly since this has all ramped up. Once I need to start going back into the office 5 days a week, I feel like the problems are going to become more noticeable and the company he has now will stop until I'm on maternity leave, and he will become miserable. 

My husband does lots with him and obviously picks up after him too - he works and lives away 4 days in every 8 so its not simply as easy as 'sharing the load', though to be honest, we haven't discussed this element as we both simply just get on with dealing with cleaning up etc. It's not causing marital issues in any way. Just cropping up more in conversation in terms of his wellbeing and what to do for the best...

We just want whats best for our Ludo, and that's what makes it hard.


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## wolfy dog

I don't think it has anything to do with the new baby. Only due in December. It is about the dog's quality of life now. For me personally, a dog that never had an accident after the puppy stage and who had now become incontinent, is already suffering emotionally. They are troubled by doing that. And on top of that he is getting demented. I had these 2 conditions going on in a 14 year old Whippet and we had to say goodbye to him because of that. That was not a death sentence but a sweet way or parting with him.


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## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Reread what OP posted. It absolutely is the case here. *Just because a dog is older and needs a little help getting around* ....


Sorry love ya but you're in denial on this one.

13-year-old boy
-*anal furunculosis* diagnosed around 4 months ago and *not able to treat it* due to age and financial position
-his back end "*looks sore*"
-sometimes looks to be "*struggling*" to squat to empty himself. 
-He *staggers* around.
-doesn't often want to play or interact with *anyone*, spends a lot of the day sleeping and just looking g*enerally a bit sadder, *has started eating his own poop etc.
-poops in the house *a couple of times a week (despite having just been let out)*.
-Doesn't ever tell us he needs to go out anymore. 
-has started *struggling with his hips and hind legs* 
-*struggles to get up*, sometimes his back legs wobble when walking, his whole backend seems to droop lower on his hind legs as the day goes on into the evening. Vet advised he has arthritis in back legs when she diagnosed the furunculosis.
-*Has a large mass on his ribcage* which has been there for around 12 months, vet again didn't seem concerned due to age but not sure if this could be contributing to all of the above. 
*(My brother has a dog with a mass like this that was uncomfortable and eventually split open)

Plus, a new baby on the way and a toddler already there and the OP has concerns as to whether she can give him the attention he needs and will need. Symptoms are getting worse not better. And no finances for advanced care.

These are all her words. not mine.
Does this really sound like a dog that's just "just older and needs a little help" to you? Come on.....

It need a little help all right: a compassionate loving decision in its best interest.


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## Shefali

Sunsilver said:


> There are numerous web pages out there that help you assess your dog's quality of life. Suggest you look at a few of them to help you make that decision.
> 
> My 13 year old suffered an episode of vestibular disease back in June, and numerous people were convinced it was time for me to put her down, but I'd been through this with my previous GSD, and I knew she could recover. The vet (who's been practicing 37 years) agreed, and told me most dogs recover in 7 to 10 days. It took her longer than that, and she still has a head tilt, and her balance is a bit off. But when I took her to our favourite park to play ball, and her face lit up and she started dancing as soon as she saw the ball, I KNEW I'd made the right choice!
> 
> With the dog I had to put down 3 years ago, it was one of those situations where he was eating and drinking fine, but his rear end was going on him due to arthritis. While I was away at work, he'd sometimes not be able to stand up, and I'd come home to find him lying there, sometimes in his own poop.
> 
> If I'd had someone living at home to watch him, or if I hadn't had to work such long hours, I might have bought him a doggie wheelchair. Even just being there, to help him up when he needed it would have made a difference. But I couldn't afford either of those things, and it just wasn't fair to him to have to lie there struggling for hours on end. And he was 14 years old, so surgery for his back problems wasn't really an option.
> 
> It's been 3 years, and have to confess, I still sometimes second guess my decision... 😢



My heart really goes out to you. But honestly - would YOU want to lie in your own fecal matter for hours, strugglng to get up? And it's not like you can stop working. Maybe you could have hired a dog walker to come over once a day, but that would not have totally prevented the problem. Please don't beat yourself up. It's obvious you loved your boy and did the best you could for him. It's easy to second guess ourselves, but we have to cope as best we can. Saying good bye to a pet is one of the hardest things in the world. But I think you did the best thing for him.


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## MineAreWorkingline

He's 13. How many GSDs make it to 14? Confine him to certain parts of your home when you can't monitor him. One is alive for a very short time, even shorter for a dog. Every day is a gift. 

Maybe spend some time extra time with him. Take some pictures. Has he ever had a steak? Maybe an orthopedic bed can help. When was the last time he went for a ride or to a park?


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## ludohowes

To clarify, Ludo is fully house trained since being a young pup and has only ever had a couple of accidents in the house that I can remember (and every time would be due to stomach upsets). He always would ask to go out.

When he has accidents now, its either him not being able to stop going i.e. one second he is fine next he squats and poops where he is (or starts levering his tail like he is trying to go), or he tries and makes it to outside and poops anyway on the way, or it just falls out of him when using stairs. He often has just been outside, and comes inside and does it (which to me seems like the dementia side of things). I also sometimes swear I can smell poop but can't locate one, and wonder if hes done it and then ate it, as this is a new issue too which he does outside too (NEVER done this even when a puppy)


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with the new baby. Only due in December. It is about the dog's quality of life now. For me personally, a dog that never had an accident after the puppy stage and who had now become incontinent, is already suffering emotionally. They are troubled by doing that. And on top of that he is getting demented. I had these 2 conditions going on in a 14 year old Whippet and we had to say goodbye to him because of that. That was not a death sentence but a sweet way or parting with him.


It's a part of aging. You should spend some time with the elderly and ask them if the indignity of having an accident makes them want to call Dr. Kevorkian.


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## MineAreWorkingline

ludohowes said:


> To clarify, Ludo is fully house trained since being a young pup and has only ever had a couple of accidents in the house that I can remember (and every time would be due to stomach upsets). He always would ask to go out.
> 
> When he has accidents now, its either him not being able to stop going i.e. one second he is fine next he squats and poops where he is (or starts levering his tail like he is trying to go), or he tries and makes it to outside and poops anyway on the way, or it just falls out of him when using stairs. He often has just been outside, and comes inside and does it (which to me seems like the dementia side of things). I also sometimes swear I can smell poop but can't locate one, and wonder if hes done it and then ate it, as this is a new issue too which he does outside too (NEVER done this even when a puppy)


Sounds like he is losing muscle tone. That comes with age. So does gas.


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It's a part of aging. You should spend some time with the elderly and ask them if the indignity of having an accident makes them want to call Dr. Kevorkian.


I would personally prefer that over wasting away in some nursing home. Had a good life and if the future is only going downhill, it's time to go fro me. I have seen too much of that. It makes me envy dogs who do have the option of not having to suffer needlessly. Some may say that it was too early but who can judge that? There is no objective standard for it so we do what we think is best for our animals. By the way there is more going on with this poor old dog than being incontinent.


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## Sunflowers

I am so sorry about the difficult situation in which you find yourself right now, and I’m sure you are incredibly conflicted, which is why you came here.
I’m also sure that after you read all the replies, the decision will not be any clearer than it was before you started posting here, because people are different, their standards are different, their moral codes are different, and their experiences also shape the way they do something like this. Someone’s elderly dog that is acceptable to care for, may be, for someone else, an impossibility.
What I am going to tell you is that the time will be when your heart says it's time. 
Just as we are different and our dogs are different, this is a unique situation and no two are the same.
Again, I am so sorry, they do not live as long as they deserve to. Wishing you strength with your decision, whenever you decide to make it. 
You will know.


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> I would personally prefer that over wasting away in some nursing home. Had a good life and if the future is only going downhill, it's time to go fro me. I have seen too much of that. It makes me envy dogs who do have the option of not having to suffer needlessly. Some may say that it was too early but who can judge that? There is no objective standard for it so we do what we think is best for our animals. By the way there is more going on with this poor old dog than being incontinent.


If someone is wasting away in a nursing home, makes me wonder if they put their dog down for aging and are now reaping what they have sewn. Kids learn by example.


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## ludohowes

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sounds like he is losing muscle tone. That comes with age. So does gas.


He has anal furunculosis...weeping gaping holes all around his bum, basically looks like its inside out. I'm aware of what part of the pooping problem may be....I'm just spelling it out for those who were maybe querying if he was house trained, and how its coming about that he is doing it in the house. He's not doing it in his sleep and its not pouring out of him but does seem to be related to his other health issues...

I think we are focusing too much on the poop! That's the least of my worries currently, happy to pick it up and I never scold or draw attention to it - it's just one of the only visible signifiers other than his extremely raw looking bum that I can share as a reason for us having these conversations as a family at the moment I guess? For some reason this is the one thing being picked out but as I said he has furunculosis, arthritis, a large lump and behavioural changes which could onset of dementia/ just old age symptoms that all happened before the increase in accidents. 

Thanks for everyone's replies its really great to hear opinions and thoughts on this - its really hard when the decision is on you. You can't make this decision for humans (I had a grandparent die of dementia and ultimately covid symptoms earlier in the year, and he sometimes begged for someone to put him out of his misery for the years leading up to his passing, instead he had to die alone in a hospital bed asking why his wife couldn't visit...) so I think that's why I am finding it hard with our dog who can't say what he thinks or feels or wants etc.

Really hard.


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## MineAreWorkingline

ludohowes said:


> He has anal furunculosis...weeping gaping holes all around his bum, basically looks like its inside out. I'm aware of what part of the pooping problem may be....I'm just spelling it out for those who were maybe querying if he was house trained, and how its coming about that he is doing it in the house. He's not doing it in his sleep and its not pouring out of him but does seem to be related to his other health issues...
> 
> I think we are focusing too much on the poop! That's the least of my worries currently, happy to pick it up and I never scold or draw attention to it - it's just one of the only visible signifiers other than his extremely raw looking bum that I can share as a reason for us having these conversations as a family at the moment I guess? For some reason this is the one thing being picked out but as I said he has furunculosis, arthritis, a large lump and behavioural changes which could onset of dementia/ just old age symptoms that all happened before the increase in accidents.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's replies its really great to hear opinions and thoughts on this - its really hard when the decision is on you. You can't make this decision for humans (I had a grandparent die of dementia and ultimately covid symptoms earlier in the year, and he sometimes begged for someone to put him out of his misery for the years leading up to his passing, instead he had to die alone in a hospital bed asking why his wife couldn't visit...) so I think that's why I am finding it hard with our dog who can't say what he thinks or feels or wants etc.
> 
> Really hard.


I am sorry if I was hard on you. I was the primary caretaker of my mother who died in her 90s. She taught me to handle aging with grace and dignity. While waiting for her last ambulance ride, she said I'm not ready yet.


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If someone is wasting away in a nursing home, makes me wonder if they put their dog down for aging and are now reaping what they have sewn. Kids learn by example.


Lots of assumptions here. You don't have any idea how tough it is to see someone you love wasting away. For wasting away you don't have to be alone. You can have great kids and a partner who are complete powerless because many nursing homes don't honor the advance directive of the patient and force feed to keep the patient alive. Follow the money. Much has to do with cashing in from insurance companies. But now we are on a side track here.


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am sorry if I was hard on you. I was the primary caretaker of my mother who died in her 90s. She taught me to handle aging with grace and dignity. While waiting for her last ambulance ride, she said I'm not ready yet.


Not everyone has the luxury to age with grace. Your mom was one of the lucky ones if she did.


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## Sabis mom

ludohowes said:


> Thanks for everyone's replies its really great to hear opinions and thoughts on this - its really hard when the decision is on you. You can't make this decision for humans (I had a grandparent die of dementia and ultimately covid symptoms earlier in the year, and he sometimes begged for someone to put him out of his misery for the years leading up to his passing, instead he had to die alone in a hospital bed asking why his wife couldn't visit...) so I think that's why I am finding it hard with our dog who can't say what he thinks or feels or wants etc.


I am sorry for the loss of your grandfather.

Ignore the bickering around here. I know this is a terrible decision, most of us have been there. 
If in your opinion the dog is in pain or is suffering and there is no reasonable resolution in sight, then you know what you need to do. 
Once they reach a certain age and condition I think we really need to weigh how much treatment is for us and how much is for them. Yes, we can keep them hanging around but is that fair? Yes we can subject them to tests and treatments and procedures, but is that what they want? If we can give them a pill, or clean up an occasional mess that is all good. But when it's painful, and not going to get better well then we are looking at a different issue.
Whatever you decide be at peace and do the best you can.


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## Springbrz

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Perhaps reread OP's post.
> 
> "He seems mostly ok in himself apart from all of the above, and just doesn't seem in a place to be able to think about putting him down yet, "
> 
> The dog is aging. Of course he has aches and pains. Who kills an old dog because he needs a hand up or a little more time to get moving? That's not about the dog's comfort. That's about the owner's discomfort caring for an aging dog.


I read it. Maybe you need to reread the original post

Quote:

has anal furunculosis - Vet diagnosed around 4 months ago during lockdown, but we're not able to treat this with drugs owing to his age and our current financial position. He manages to eat and poop as normal (more on this later) but his back end does look sore (we clean it and use nappy cream etc) and sometimes he does look to be struggling to squat to empty himself. He staggers around whilst doing it rather than just doing it in one spot as he used to.
is showing signs of dementia - not coming when called (could be deafness?), trying to eat/steal food constantly (Despite being fed more these days than ever), doesn't often want to play or interact with anyone, spends a lot of the day sleeping and just looking generally a bit sadder than normal, sometimes barks to be let in when the door is wide open, has started eating his own poop etc.
This isn't just an old dog having a little trouble getting around and a little poop on the floor. Dog is showing signs of dementia and AF is a painful disease so as I said maybe we shouldn't judge as we are not seeing the dog the OP is seeing. And I also didn't suggest anything should be done right this moment either. I wish the OP peace and strength when the time was right. 

However I stand by my comment that term it a death penalty was harsh. I will not discuss this differing of opinion on that with you any further as it would be counterproductive and not helpful to the OP


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## ludohowes

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am sorry if I was hard on you. I was the primary caretaker of my mother who died in her 90s. She taught me to handle aging with grace and dignity. While waiting for her last ambulance ride, she said I'm not ready yet.


And this is it, isn't it...why its hard making this decision. 
Even those faced with their own imminent death handle it differently to others in the same place, and some don't necessarily know/believe what is right for them, or understand what is potentially just around the corner. 

Re the nursing Home comment above - my grandad who passed as mentioned was living in a home away from his wife for a couple of years before being taken to hospital. This absolutely extended his life and he had more social interaction, love, support, care than he would have done at home. But ultimately he felt it was prolonging what was inevitable and made him suffer more at the end when his time came. He knew what was coming all that time and wished it had happened sooner. This is what I want to avoid, but its a decision that makes you feel like you're acting as a God and is uncomfortable at minimum. We have been putting off the conversations repeatedly since March, and all the while another 6 months have passed and he isn't magically improving.

Think lots more conversations to be had this week about it as a family, and with the vet as someone suggested earlier. I just wanted to see what other loving dog owners of this breed thought today with it playing so heavily on my mind this week, especially as I thought there may be those owners on here who may have handled similar ailments and aging issues - more as a sounding board that I wouldn't get with talking to those who know and love Ludo and who may be biased or conflicted the same as I.

Thank you ❤


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## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It's a part of aging. You should spend some time with the elderly and ask them if the indignity of having an accident makes them want to call Dr. Kevorkian.


I have him on speed dial for myself.

My Dad asked if there was any way his doctor could help him go peacefully. I was his primary caregiver and was with him when she passed. I have a great family and he was visited almost daily by one of us and my mother was with him. He still wasted away at the end in a great nursing home.

My grandmother prayed to go and be with my grandfather. I was with her when she passed.

My mother worked in long term care for 40 years and my daughter does today. I guess you'd be surprised to learn how many people wish we could be as compassionate with them as we have the opportunity to be with our dogs.

You may also know that nursing homes can administer a drug for an artificial coma until they pass naturally. Or drug the h*ll out of them for pain until they pass. I'd sooner just be helped to drift off to sleep painlessly with dignity.


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## Heidigsd

My first GSD lived to be 14 years old and she would have an occasional poop accident, she had no clue it was happening. There is no way I would have ended her life for that reason. She was still eating, drinking, glad to see us. Once it was clear she was in pain we knew it was time to let her go.

My current girl "Nikki" has PF's and it's under control with Prednisone & Tacrolimus ointment. Prednisone is cheap, you can get it at Walmart PetRx and I pay $50 for a 30g tube of the ointment. If he's in pain you can ask your vet for Gabapentin, not expensive and also available at Walmart PetRx. Make sure you keep his rear end clean to prevent any infection. 

Nikki has spay incontinence and was accident free but after being put on Prednisone she has occasional pee accidents, not a big deal. Good luck!


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## Muskeg

If he is still eating well, I'd keep him around. 

When and if he loses interest in food, it's time to make a decision.


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## LuvShepherds

I doubt your dog will be with you by the time the baby is crawling. I try to find out if a dog is hiding severe pain vs discomfort, then I look at quality of life. Does the dog still enjoy eating? Attention? Do they light up when they see a family member? I have waited too long with every one of my dogs due to my needs and not looking at the issues. But then I had a dog euthanized who had an oozing cancer and was in terrible pain but could have lasted longer. I always regretted not letting that dog die peacefully at home. So I understand the agony you are going through. I believe the dog will tell you when it’s time if you watch and listen.


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## Muskeg

Yes, I also understand the struggle to decide. My rule of thumb is whether they enjoy eating- but that's me. This only applies to end of life when the dog is clearly going to die soon - dogs can lose appetite for many reasons that don't mean they should be euthanized!


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> Lots of assumptions here. You don't have any idea how tough it is to see someone you love wasting away. For wasting away you don't have to be alone. You can have great kids and a partner who are complete powerless because many nursing homes don't honor the advance directive of the patient and force feed to keep the patient alive. Follow the money. Much has to do with cashing in from insurance companies. But now we are on a side track here.


If... wonder... words of speculation, not assumptions.


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> Not everyone has the luxury to age with grace. Your mom was one of the lucky ones if she did.


I never said she was afforded that luxury. I said it was what she taught me. To be clearer, what she taught me through the years as others passed from varying causes.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Springbrz said:


> I read it. Maybe you need to reread the original post
> 
> Quote:
> 
> has anal furunculosis - Vet diagnosed around 4 months ago during lockdown, but we're not able to treat this with drugs owing to his age and our current financial position. He manages to eat and poop as normal (more on this later) but his back end does look sore (we clean it and use nappy cream etc) and sometimes he does look to be struggling to squat to empty himself. He staggers around whilst doing it rather than just doing it in one spot as he used to.
> is showing signs of dementia - not coming when called (could be deafness?), trying to eat/steal food constantly (Despite being fed more these days than ever), doesn't often want to play or interact with anyone, spends a lot of the day sleeping and just looking generally a bit sadder than normal, sometimes barks to be let in when the door is wide open, has started eating his own poop etc.
> This isn't just an old dog having a little trouble getting around and a little poop on the floor. Dog is showing signs of dementia and AF is a painful disease so as I said maybe we shouldn't judge as we are not seeing the dog the OP is seeing. And I also didn't suggest anything should be done right this moment either. I wish the OP peace and strength when the time was right.
> 
> However I stand by my comment that term it a death penalty was harsh. I will not discuss this differing of opinion on that with you any further as it would be counterproductive and not helpful to the OP


I already read OP's posts several times and others, like you, have reposted it for me to read somehow hoping that OP's words would change to read that her dog is suffering but that is not what she said and posting it over and over won't change that.


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## MineAreWorkingline

WNGD said:


> I have him on speed dial for myself.
> 
> My Dad asked if there was any way his doctor could help him go peacefully. I was his primary caregiver and was with him when she passed. I have a great family and he was visited almost daily by one of us and my mother was with him. He still wasted away at the end in a great nursing home.
> 
> My grandmother prayed to go and be with my grandfather. I was with her when she passed.
> 
> My mother worked in long term care for 40 years and my daughter does today. I guess you'd be surprised to learn how many people wish we could be as compassionate with them as we have the opportunity to be with our dogs.
> 
> You may also know that nursing homes can administer a drug for an artificial coma until they pass naturally. Or drug the h*ll out of them for pain until they pass. I'd sooner just be helped to drift off to sleep painlessly with dignity.


I feel sorry for you and not being facetious, that you feel it is better to risk losing a precious day of life, or ten, or twenty days than to feel one day of discomfort. 

One thing that I see in life is the failure of people to have a life. I have relatively healthy, elderly friends who are disillusioned with retirement and the life that they failed to create and are simply waiting to pass.

And then, this brings to mind, self preservation, which I know has a strong genetic predisposition... but I digress.


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## Fodder

when the idea or possibility of Gia’s “time” nearing entered my mind.... we surrounded her (me and the other pets) and spent time reflecting on the past 13yrs, what she truly lived for, etc. i was able to come up with a criteria, so that my emotions wouldn’t give me the run around as we got close..

those criteria were... if she refused food (since she never had in her life), lost interest in her favorite toys, and if she became incontinent. all three had to present. after seeming “off” for a couple days, she refused breakfast one morning before i left for work... i came home to find that she’d urinated on her bed where she was laying... nervously i grabbed her toy - she raised her brows but didn’t even have the strength to take it. i made the call. she was gone the next morning. honestly, even with that criteria, i felt i’d waited too long... but it’s what “we” agreed on, and any discomfort was short lived...the week before she was still “hiking” (very short distance) and swimming.


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## Sunsilver

I just looked up anal furunculosis, and it is painful, and involved both the inside (large bowel) and outside (anus). However, there are different degrees of it, and some drugs that aren't terribly expensive, can help control it, if the owner can't afford surgery, or surgery isn't an option due to the dog's age. Only the OP can see and tell just how bad it really is. And it seems the incontinence is related to the furunculosis, rather than dementia and loss of muscle tone, because the bowel is inflamed - the condition is likened to Crohn's disease, which causes sever diarrhea in humans.

Again, I'd like to suggest the OP research the online quality of life assessment charts for dogs to help with the decision.


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## car2ner

I had a dog with dementia. It was confusing for both of us since I didn't realize that dogs could suffer with that. My poor old gal was not happy. She was confused. She soiled in the house close to the door because she seemed to know she had to be outdoors, but couldn't wait for me to open the door. She stared at her food. She stared at the door. Eventually she hid behind a tree in the backyard. I called the vet to see if I could bring her in that evening to have her checked for health problems but that afternoon my old gal found a warm beam of sunshine in the soft grass of the backyard and left us. 
My next dog I had to make the call to the vet. When she had trouble getting up and refused her favorite treat we knew it we time to go. She still loved laying in the sunshine in the yard with us, but it was a small comfort compared to the pain she had the rest of the day. Even though we all agreed, family and vet, that letting her go was the right thing to do, that evening afterwards I had the odd desire to rush back to the animal hospital and cry out that I had changed my mind. It is hard.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I think I understood you to say gaping holes around dog's anus and you can't afford and/or dog cannot tolerate treatment due to age.


No judgement at all, but if treatment cannot be done to significantly reduce suffering for either of those reasons, then I would put the dog down.

I kept my last one alive maybe as long as 6 months that she never could have made it without round the clock nursing care and home treatments. Someone who worked away from home 8 hrs a day coukd not have done what I did. But because I was here, I could. 

If you can't, you can't. If I could not have afforded the treatments and medicines that kept her going I would have put her down 6 months earlier and that is just a statement with zero opinion of which is right because both are right in my mind.


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## DanielEHayes

I am with MineAreWorking here. I took care of my mom and Bishop essentially at the same time. Mom made it 6 months and Bishop made it 17 months. Her's was poor quality and his was relatively high quality. I wasn't going to euthanize either one of them. Everyone's different and you are the one on the ground. You've got to make that choice.

WILD suggestion here... will your pup eat any fruit? Anal furunculosis is thought to be somewhat akin to colitis. Tart Cherries are great for their anti-inflammatory properties. I think they may have helped me keep Bishop going for 17 months after his heart hermangiosarcoma diagnosis. He wouldn't eat them unless I rolled it up in his ground meat. My other dog has no such problems.. Since you are saying he seems always hungry maybe he will eat some. keep in mind to try slowly...dogs get lose when they tend to switch.

What is not real speculative is that if the dog is consuming some tart cherries, it should help with the arthritis. I have used tart cherry juice to help manage my pain issues. A bag of dried TART cherries is about 7 bucks at Costco.


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## firefighterw

Quality of life trumps quantity of days.

I put a dog down too late before. And I've second guessed all the others, and watched one die naturally right in front of my eyes. It _always_ sucks.

Truth is to me, it sounds like the dog has lived a good solid life but is probably hurting right now, confused a lot, and likely in a lot of pain from the multitude of things you've said. I would have an honest talk with your veterinarian.

I can't tell you what to do but all I can say is think of the dog's best interests and not your own. The time to euthanize is almost never perfect, but I'd rather do it "one day early" than "one day late." It's the most selfless thing we can do for these loyal friends that have given so much to us.

This isn't a person that can make their own decisions, and I wish people would stop comparing it to that.


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## WNGD

firefighterw said:


> Quality of life trumps quantity of days.
> 
> I put a dog down too late before. And I've second guessed all the others, and watched one die naturally right in front of my eyes. *It always sucks.
> 
> Truth is to me, it sounds like the dog has lived a good solid life but is probably hurting right now, confused a lot, and likely in a lot of pain from the multitude of things you've said*. I would have an honest talk with your veterinarian.
> 
> *I can't tell you what to do but all I can say is think of the dog's best interests and not your own*. The time to euthanize is almost never perfect, but* I'd rather do it "one day early" than "one day late." It's the most selfless thing we can do for these loyal friends that have given so much to us.*
> 
> This isn't a person that can make their own decisions, and I wish people would stop comparing it to that.


100% this.


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## gtaroger

I am sorry to see your going through this with your dog.Are you sure that Anal Furunculosis is the proper diagnosis. I lost my dog to Lupus a month ago. It is one of the most missed diagnosis with dogs. My dog had medical problems with his ears,dry nose with cracks on it,This was over a couple years and treated by the vets who told me it was from water getting in his ears, the dry nose was from to much sun. Then this year he started having problems with having bowel movements.This time I was told he was allergic to his food. I followed all of the instructions .He liked the new food but it didn't help.I took him back again, this time again the vet examined his rectum and found small holes around his rectum . Then the diagnosis was changed to Lupus.It is a very painful disease.It was so bad that he didn't respond to any of the Meds.I don't know how I could have done things any better for him.Do not blame yourself if this doesn't turn out for the better.Make sure you show your dog how much you love it and don't let it suffer.


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## WNGD

OP was almost a year and a half ago. I'm sure a decision was made.


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