# My pup killed my old dog -- neep help.



## joslin (Sep 3, 2011)

I have a 1 1/2 year old rescued female Shepherd mix, who has always been timid and fearful, but pushy with some of our other dogs. Two days ago, she killed our old Schnauzer mix female. Extremely grisly and has devastated us. We found a squirrel in her spot in the back yard, so we're assuming she was protecting it. How does one put a lovable, goofy, puppy who has never growled at anyone, and had a likely deprived if not horrid start in life, to sleep? Are there options? We have a pit mix (another rescue we were guaranteed not to be any part pit) that we had to "separate out" from our other dogs 12 years ago, and she has done very well -- is vibrant, healthy and happy -- doesn't want to socialize with other dogs. But this pup loves the company of dogs more than people any day. It has broken my heart.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs are dogs, they have an instinct to take out the weaker ones. NOt acceptable, but sometimes it is what it is. I am so sorry this happened, your poor schnauzer may she rest in peace. 
I don't know if I could love my dog after this happened but I would try to understand why it did. I don't think it is a death sentence ordeal though. Especially when you have females that are unsupervised. I expect to come home to my females in a bloodbath at any time, because females tend to be that way. Mine get along, but there are moments that I have to difuse a situation.
I'm so sorry for the loss of your senior...


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Why would you have to put her to sleep? Its bad what happened, but these things happen when smaller dogs cross a larger dog. If there is no sign of human aggression, personally IMHO PTS is not the right answer.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I agree, PTS might be unwarranted, but I would never let her be unsupervised with any other dog again.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the others, dogs are dogs, when you have more than one, especially a large powerful dog and a smaller one, they should always be supervised.

I would be devastated as well, but I wouldn't put her down because of it.


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## tracyaesaert (Aug 23, 2011)

We had a situation here a couple of weeks ago too... the GSD pup is now having her period and is a little b**chy. She was trying to take over the role of Alpha girl of our other dog and they were fighting aswell. Lucky my hubbie got between them and separated them. But we had to decided to separate them fulltime.... Luckily my stepdad and mum took her back home with them and they are both very, very happy now (and so are we, cause we do not have to worry any longer that one day we would find our JackRussel-Lab mix dead in the backyard....)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m very sorry for your loss. I"m assuming from your post that you were not there when this happened? You don't know what started it? I don't know how I would feel about my dog if she did something like this. One of the reasons her and another of our dogs are never left alone together. But I don't think this should be a death sentence based on the information you provided.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

An 18 month old bitch is reaching sexual maturity, whether she is spayed or not. That brings on changes with her, but also changes with other dogs' attitude toward her. Or rather, other bitches' attitudes toward her. 

She may not have initiated this at all. Just because the old one is dead, does not mean that the old one did not attack her and try to put her in her place or simply attack her. If you were not there, then you don't know. 

She's the bad one because she is bigger and she is alive. Well, now, hmmm, dogs do not always consider size. It is applying human attributes to a dog to believe they should leave a smaller or an older or a sicker dog alone. 

My dog Jenna killed my cat. Jenna is sweet and lovey and was fine with the cat. But then a possom got the cat. I took it to the vet, and they gave her a shot, and she seemed to get better, and she was attacked again. I took her to the vet again. She was losing weight and hanging out up near the kennels. One day I had Jenna in the yard outside my gate, and she ran behind the kennels, and attacked and killed the cat. Right there in front of me. By the time I got back there she was mostly gone. I buried her. I felt bad about it. Jenna was pregnant. Arwen used to rub up against that cat, loved it, but when she was pregnant, she tried to attack the cat.

So was the cat a threat, was the cat sick/injured? I cannot put a dog down for being a dog. 

I do not leave bitches run together when I am not home. They can be worse that dogs for sure. Dogs will give up, and the other will quit, not so with females. They seem to keep going. They remember forever too. Crate her when you are not home, or build her a kennel. 

It would be a terrible shame to put down a dog for something like this.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I can understand never wanting to see her again, I think this may be one of the very few "good" reasons to rehome a dog. I'd find her a good home with no other dogs, but I certainly wouldn't put her down.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm sorry for your loss......


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

It is heart wrenching when one beloved pet kills another beloved pet. My friend Maggie has shelties (she gave us our lovely Ruby); 2 intact males (brothers, different litters), and 2 intact females. Alpha male was Quincy. She had a litter resulting in 4 pups; one day when the pups were about 7 weeks old we took them "shopping" for new collars. When we returned, all of the adults and pups were mingling at our feet. Maggie dropped a treat, her star male pup of the litter went to get it, and Quincy bit him on the head. The bite was quick, hard, and sharp. His canine tooth went right through the pups skull, shattering it. The whole incident happened in a nano-second, right before our eyes. Poor pup was barely conscious and seizuring within minutes. We lost him, obviously. It was very, very hard for Maggie to love Quincy after seeing that. She would ask me how she could ever love him again, and I said he didn't attack the pup with malice or with the intent to kill -- he is very food possessive (not to mention Maggie-possessive), and he did what comes naturally to herding dogs: he nipped the pup. He had no idea that the nip would kill the pup. Eventually she did forgive him, which was wonderful because we lost Quincy to cancer 2 years later. Maggie would have never forgiven herself if she had re-homed Quincy or kept him apart in her heart, only to have him cross the bridge a short time later. 
I hope you are able to forgive your dog, and that your heart heals quickly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

EchoGSD said:


> It is heart wrenching when one beloved pet kills another beloved pet. My friend Maggie has shelties (she gave us our lovely Ruby); 2 intact males (brothers, different litters), and 2 intact females. Alpha male was Quincy. She had a litter resulting in 4 pups; one day when the pups were about 7 weeks old we took them "shopping" for new collars. When we returned, all of the adults and pups were mingling at our feet. Maggie dropped a treat, her star male pup of the litter went to get it, and Quincy bit him on the head. The bite was quick, hard, and sharp. His canine tooth went right through the pups skull, shattering it. The whole incident happened in a nano-second, right before our eyes. Poor pup was barely conscious and seizuring within minutes. We lost him, obviously. It was very, very hard for Maggie to love Quincy after seeing that. She would ask me how she could ever love him again, and I said he didn't attack the pup with malice or with the intent to kill -- he is very food possessive (not to mention Maggie-possessive), and he did what comes naturally to herding dogs: he nipped the pup. He had no idea that the nip would kill the pup. Eventually she did forgive him, which was wonderful because we lost Quincy to cancer 2 years later. Maggie would have never forgiven herself if she had re-homed Quincy or kept him apart in her heart, only to have him cross the bridge a short time later.
> I hope you are able to forgive your dog, and that your heart heals quickly.


That is sad. But having four adult dogs and seven week old puppies all wiggling around together is not kool. Then dropping a treat into that. I would feel so awful. Did you take the seven week old puppies to a pet store, or was that the adults?


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

EchoGSD said:


> It is heart wrenching when one beloved pet kills another beloved pet. My friend Maggie has shelties (she gave us our lovely Ruby); 2 intact males (brothers, different litters), and 2 intact females. Alpha male was Quincy. She had a litter resulting in 4 pups; one day when the pups were about 7 weeks old we took them "shopping" for new collars. When we returned, all of the adults and pups were mingling at our feet. Maggie dropped a treat, her star male pup of the litter went to get it, and Quincy bit him on the head. The bite was quick, hard, and sharp. His canine tooth went right through the pups skull, shattering it. The whole incident happened in a nano-second, right before our eyes. Poor pup was barely conscious and seizuring within minutes. We lost him, obviously. It was very, very hard for Maggie to love Quincy after seeing that. She would ask me how she could ever love him again, and I said he didn't attack the pup with malice or with the intent to kill -- he is very food possessive (not to mention Maggie-possessive), and he did what comes naturally to herding dogs: he nipped the pup. He had no idea that the nip would kill the pup. Eventually she did forgive him, which was wonderful because we lost Quincy to cancer 2 years later. Maggie would have never forgiven herself if she had re-homed Quincy or kept him apart in her heart, only to have him cross the bridge a short time later.
> I hope you are able to forgive your dog, and that your heart heals quickly.


That wasn't a nip. An adult dog has bite inhibition, and were he just correcting the pup it wouldn't have been a full pressured bite. I've had adult dogs correct puppies, they do it to varying degrees and when an adult corrects too harshly it's best to keep the puppy away. Anyway, even a harsh correction isn't going to do the damage the male dog (in your story) did to the puppy. You already hit the real reason behind it all, he was a resource guarder and attacked the puppy -- it doesn't have anything to do with his breed.

As for the OP, I don't know if I could fully blame the shepherd in this case... I don't think I'd ever leave such a big young dog alone with a smaller dog. Even rough play could potential cause serious injury! What happened is horrible, but like another member already mentioned -- it may not have been the shepherd that started the argument; and if a fight broke out, the smaller dog is always going to be the loser  And as much as I know of schnauzers, they don't tend to back down.. 

I'd really focus on training with your shepherd, not just for her, but for you.. it may help you learn to trust her and hopefully eventually forgive her. Training builds a bond between the handler and the dog.


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## Dynamo (Sep 4, 2011)

joslin said:


> I have a 1 1/2 year old rescued female Shepherd mix, who has always been timid and fearful, but pushy with some of our other dogs. Two days ago, she killed our old Schnauzer mix female. Extremely grisly and has devastated us. We found a squirrel in her spot in the back yard, so we're assuming she was protecting it. How does one put a lovable, goofy, puppy who has never growled at anyone, and had a likely deprived if not horrid start in life, to sleep? Are there options? We have a pit mix (another rescue we were guaranteed not to be any part pit) that we had to "separate out" from our other dogs 12 years ago, and she has done very well -- is vibrant, healthy and happy -- doesn't want to socialize with other dogs. But this pup loves the company of dogs more than people any day. It has broken my heart.


There is some info missing. Maybe it's just me as a trainer, but I need to have all the info in order to formulate a picture of the situation.

1) When did you get the dog, how long were they living together?

2) I don't understand what other dogs live in the home. What happened to this Pit Bull, I'm not clear on if you still have it in the home, or where/how it has "done very well."

3) Were they both spayed, if so, at what ages? I recognize the word "rescued" generally will be a sterilized dog, but not necessarily as many folks consider getting a dog from a neighbor, friend, or even a pet store "rescuing."

To address _your_ questions in the situation:
As another poster said, you do not know what happened because you were not there. This is why you have a lot of doubt on what to think of the GSD. You don't know the trigger or who did what, other than who won, and who lost. How old was the Schnauzer? Some dogs are more likely to have instinct to kill older or sickly dying dogs. I am curious what, if any, injuries or bite wounds the GSD has, but I would expect some, and be disappointed if I found none. You do not know if/what threat was perceived by the GSD... although you probably would have noticed some resource-guarding behaviors previously, if this were the case. This is key to me: You say she has been "pushy" before with your dogs. Dogs guard all types of things from one another, besides food or dead squirrels, including water, favored resting places, and their owners attention. Seeing these things is what may lead a multi-dog pet owner to form the idea "This one is more of the alpha." So assuming you never noticed these telling behaviors and labeled it "pushy", it was probably there but not addressed. I bring this up not to make you feel guilty, but to point out that it may be a lack of training/discipline and not all the dogs fault! 

Another factor is how is this GSD been with other dogs- has she ever displayed aggression to other dogs, such as bitch-aggressiveness, small-dog aggression, lack of bite inhibition and "over doing it" when correcting other dogs, low tolerances, etc.

I would not necessarily put a dog down for dog-aggression. It depends on the dog and on the situation. It sounds like you may be able to keep her if you can 1) train her (and I mean like with a professional and specifically addressing dog issues and control), 2) *manage her*- so she's not loose with dogs ever again unless it's in a controlled setting.

This talk about loving your dog... You do not love a fuzzy furkid, you do not love a child, it is a dog and *you love a predatory animal*. Say it again in your head "predatory animal." You have probably seen a lion on tv take down a beautiful innocent baby zebra and all the gore, does this mean lions disgust you? Surely lions don't sleep in our beds with us, so it's not the same, but the point is *there are no morals in the world of animals*. They live in the moment, for the most part. Some dogs are not fair in how they fight, or maybe are acting out of instinct to survive and win. A dog fighting is a combination of genetics and rearing. Dogs do not have the concept of charity, either. If there were a pair of dogs (who were best friends), and the owner just put down only one small bowl for the first dog, while the other one starved and wasted away, will the first dog will ever notice this second dogs suffering and relinquish some of his own food? As much as it hurts us, because to me dogs are my family, and I do think of my dogs as "sisters," I know I'm applying human traits, human values (family), and expectations. I would not put my dog down for this alone, although I would evaluate the dog overall, including temperament, and take it all into consideration.
They say males fight for rank or competition, females fight _for keeps_.


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## MichelleYoo (May 10, 2011)

I do agree with all of the other posters. I hope you realize that no one is trying to minimize your loss, that's an unimaginably horrible thing to come home and find. But if there's no aggression towards humans, perhaps a home without smaller dogs and where she's always supervised with other dogs would be a (relatively) happy ending for all of you.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We've had a Dachshund kill baby chicks. They would kill cats if we didn't keep them separated. We've had my (now senior) Sheltie mix kill a baby goat (last year) and also attempt to take down an adult, years ago. We just watch them like hawks, don't let them roam, and separate dogs we know to "not mix well" with each other, when we leave. If we don't do this, we know we'll come home to a bloody battlefield. 
It is what it is, as another poster said.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I am sorry for your loss.

The dog is vicious, if you decide not to put her to sleep-then find someone who has no other pets to take her in.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

sigh - the dog is NOT "vicious"!!!!!!!! Young big dog apparently defending some possession against a TERRIER! Old terrier at that....very sad, very easy to have happen....should not be put down because the situation was not understood by owners who let dogs together unsupervised. 

Lee


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> sigh - the dog is NOT "vicious"!!!!!!!! Young big dog apparently defending some possession against a TERRIER! Old terrier at that....very sad, very easy to have happen....should not be put down because the situation was not understood by owners who let dogs together unsupervised.
> 
> Lee


If the other dog wasn't attacking it, and it flipped out over a possession and killed another dog-in my opinion the dog is vicious. I am entitled to my opinion, so I don't understand the sigh and all the !!!!!!!!. Not everybody has to agree with you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If they were not home and did not see the attack, we have no idea what happened. We just know who is alive at the end of the day. Regardless as to whether the GSD mix started it or not, I would not call this a viscious dog at all. It is simply a dog, or rather a bitch. This may have nothing to do with same sex aggression. This may have nothing to do with pack order. We do not really know what happened, except one dog lost. And that is sad. Viscious is a hard word to label a dog with.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

We aren't sure what happened, except that the dog is a killer. I wouldn't take a chance of it killing another one of my dogs, I would give the dog to someone without other pets. If it killed once, it could kill again.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But what if the other dog attacked it? 

The fact is, if you have two dogs, one CAN kill the other.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

But what if the other dog didn't attack it? We don't know. I wouldn't wait to see if she does it again.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> But what if the other dog didn't attack it? We don't know. I wouldn't wait to see if she does it again.


It doesn't have to happen again, and you don't have to rehome the dog. The incident happened because you left two dogs unsupervised in the back yard while no one was home... this is not typically advisable even if the dogs get along. If you don't want to risk a fight, don't leave your dogs alone unsupervised! It really is as simple as that!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm sorry for your loss but the fact you werent there to actually witness what happened, i dont think judging the GSD is really the thing to do. Terriers are known to be a spunky bunch of dogs with the dont back down attitude to back it up. For all you know, the terrier could have gotten into an obnoxious mode and your other dog corrected. terrier didnt back down and the GSD felt the need to defend herself. Even though my dogs are well socialized and good when i'm home, they're not allowed to be together unsupervised because Shasta will push her luck in annoying Riley to play and he'll be cranky and pretty nasty when he's pushed too far. They need their space just like people do. I'm sorry you lost one dog, but please dont assume the other dog is "vicious" as someone so eagerly jumped on stating and PTS is extreme. If you are really that determined to get rid of the dog, rehome with someone who has shepherd experience and is willing and able to work with her and potentially has no other pets.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

There have been a couple of times at my house in retrospect that I've considered myself lucky not to have come home to a dead dog.
I've got two females, one an older terrier mix and Alice the GSD. I crate them if I'm gone for any substantial length of time. Just on the factor that the size difference would be deadly. All it takes is a "high value" item stolen out of a waste basket, a toy, or chasing the cat together. Or, like the idiot that approached the car with them both in it....the excitement brings the dominance out in both of them....Now if they both go in the car, one of us humans stays with them. To protect them from the instincts of dogs and the folly of humans.

I completely agree with MichelleY and Wolfstraum. 

And, this statement is how I live my life with my dogs:



> This talk about loving your dog... You do not love a fuzzy furkid, you do not love a child, it is a dog and *you love a predatory animal*.


They aren't my kids; they are DOGS----predatory pack animals. Alice will get D/A with Zoey (the weasel) on occassion, but corrects nicely and I'm proactive to the female issues there; not reactive. I can feed them next to each other and basically most of the time things are good....but Alice outweighs Zoey by almost 75 pounds....so I must be the Alpha Bitch to lower the competition....for lack of better terms.

I'm sorry for your loss, and hope that if you can't live with the animal that you re-home it and screen the potential adopters. Be honest, I'd respect that if I were looking for another dog. I'd know what I was working with.


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm sorry for your loss.

My brothers rottweiler came very close to killing the family toller. She would have finished if I didn't hit her with a chair. They aren't allowed in the same room ever again. I do however, trust the rotti with my 3 shepherds, but she is put in a room by herself if we can't watch her. I control how excited she gets and she can't be around when leashes go on for walk time. I would never blame my brothers dog for attacking the other, because the toller started it, she is just older and weaker so she couldn't fight back so it looked like the rotti was bad.

Sometimes nature just happens... and we can control it to the best of our ability and be aware that the attack happened, that your dog killed another, and just be pro-active in preventing anything else from happening by watching body language from all dogs involved. If you feel the need to re-home I very much respect you for that, but make sure the new owners understand what she is capable of. It took me a long time to see our rotti for the loving dog she is again, and I don't know if i'll ever forget what she did but I do love her, and we have to understand that when we get more than one dog we can walk in on dead dogs any day.. they all have teeth, all have the capability of killing another. I wouldn't label her vicious if I didn't see the attack. I don't call my rotti vicious. My toller isn't either. They're dogs.

Again, I'm really sorry for your loss.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> If the other dog wasn't attacking it, and it flipped out over a possession and killed another dog-in my opinion the dog is vicious. I am entitled to my opinion, so I don't understand the sigh and all the !!!!!!!!. Not everybody has to agree with you.


 
It is obvious from your comment that you have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING of dog behavior or psychology. Your "opinion" is emotional and not based on facts or knowledge. And that is MY opinion, based on knowledge of dog behavior and people who think they know everything with no basis of experience to base "opinions" on. And I don't agree with you, I don't think you have any knowledge in order to make such a factual statement on. You have not seen the dog, do not know anything about the situation except the final outcome of a dog guarding a possession and a small TERRIER (and if you knew anything about terriers, you would understand WHY I am emphasizing the fact that the dead dog IS a terrier!!! ) having an altercation. If the GSD had killed a rat or a groundhog, there would not be an emotional issue here.

Lee


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

If there was a terrier anywhere near the situation, I'm not surprised it hadn't happened already. Leaving 2 dogs alone unsupervised is a bad idea, 2 females adds another level to the potential problem, one being a terrier makes it a perfect storm. 
I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm totally not surprised. We came home one day to find my husbands JRT female dead in a pen with a GSD female. The JRT had always been passive aggressive with all the other females. Apparently this day she dug into the GSDs kennel and it was the last mistake she ever made. Terriers tend to act first and think later which is great when hunting a badger for example, but not so great when confronting another female dog that is 8 times your size. 
We'll never know what happened but I wouldn't totally blame the GSD without any actual proof. 
We had a 14yo Border Terrier boarding with us that could barely see or walk. He is a cute little guy and likes hanging out with the daycare pack just watching the activity. One day the owners dropped him off for the weekend. They put his bed in his regular crate and gave me the food and went on their way. I was putting the food in the feeding room when I saw the BT go from a passive lying down position to a missile launching himself at a black lab mix and latch onto his face! The lab mix just took off running and managed to fling the BT off. The BT hit the floor and slid across the room and then just got up and shook himself off and headed back to his bed. I went and checked the bed and found a squeaky toy in the folds of the bed. He was apparently guarding his toy that the other dog had no idea was even there. Had the BT been a bit younger, I'm sure it would have been a full fledged fight! 
I have a Lancashire Heeler, a breed which has Manchester Terrier in the background. I never leave him in a position to start something. When I leave the dogs in the house, he is crated, not the GSDs, because I know his temperament and that he has just enough of that terrier edge to get himself into a boatload of trouble.

Annette


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I am very sorry that this happened to you and I can not even imagine how it felt to come home to such destruction. I would be devastated.

Please know that this act does not make your girl "vicious" or anything else. She is still the same girl that you loved before this terrible event.

And sadly you are not the only person this has happened too, I know people that have had dogs co exist for years and suddenly came home to a scene like yours.

My boy is a senior and as he ages he is separated more and more from the other dogs that lives in the house. Not too long ago I could let him and one of the girls out together but not any more.

My heart really goes out to you. But please do not have your girl pay the price because you were not aware of pack dynamics and canine behavior. She is no more vicious and unstable today then she was the day before this happened.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with others that this is a management issue that can easily be solved by not allowing the dogs to be together unsupervised.

The thing is--which most people are not considering--is that it very likely could have been the terrier that ended up with the dead squirrel and your poor GSD happened to show interest in it and the schnauzer is the one that initially attacked her. Like others have alluded to--these little terriers don't seem to know their size or strenth and think they are bigger, badder, and tougher than what they really are. 

This is just another theory. You'll never know what really happened, and unless you do I don't think you shouhld put her to sleep. I just tend to buy that it was a terrier that killed and was guarding the squirrel over a shy, timid GSD. Not that GSD's don't have their own issues and it's not possible, but that kind of behavior is more in line with what you would expect from a terrier IMO.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Older dogs are also very vulnerable in multiple dogs situation. My senior now is not even out in the yard with one of my girls and these are dogs that were introduced to him when they were pups. I would never leave them anywhere unsupervised, even though for now, they are fine in the house with me right there.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> It is obvious from your comment that you have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING of dog behavior or psychology. Your "opinion" is emotional and not based on facts or knowledge. And that is MY opinion, based on knowledge of dog behavior and people who think they know everything with no basis of experience to base "opinions" on. And I don't agree with you, I don't think you have any knowledge in order to make such a factual statement on. You have not seen the dog, do not know anything about the situation except the final outcome of a dog guarding a possession and a small TERRIER (and if you knew anything about terriers, you would understand WHY I am emphasizing the fact that the dead dog IS a terrier!!! ) having an altercation. If the GSD had killed a rat or a groundhog, there would not be an emotional issue here.
> 
> Lee


Thanks for sharing your OPINION but…..it's just an opinion. You have no clue what really happened. Not all pits are the same, not all terrier's are the same. You don't even know if the attack was over the guarding of a possession and you present this as a fact, but last time I read the OP's first statement, she wasn't even home when it happened, so we are all assuming-including you.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> If the other dog wasn't attacking it, and it flipped out over a possession and killed another dog-in my opinion the dog is vicious. I am entitled to my opinion, so I don't understand the sigh and all the !!!!!!!!. Not everybody has to agree with you.


Yes you are entitled to your opinion but expect it to be challenged when it is contrary to the opinions of most people well versed and experienced in canine behavior and pack dynamics.

There is more then your "opinion" at stake here. Your opinion could cause a dog to pay the ultimate price for being a dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> It doesn't have to happen again, and you don't have to rehome the dog. The incident happened because you left two dogs unsupervised in the back yard while no one was home... this is not typically advisable even if the dogs get along. If you don't want to risk a fight, don't leave your dogs alone unsupervised! It really is as simple as that!


I agree, this is definitely another option.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

joslin said:


> I have a 1 1/2 year old rescued female Shepherd mix, who has always been timid and fearful, but pushy with some of our other dogs. Two days ago, she killed our old Schnauzer mix female. Extremely grisly and has devastated us. We found a squirrel in her spot in the back yard, so we're assuming she was protecting it. How does one put a lovable, goofy, puppy who has never growled at anyone, and had a likely deprived if not horrid start in life, to sleep? Are there options? We have a pit mix (another rescue we were guaranteed not to be any part pit) that we had to "separate out" from our other dogs 12 years ago, and she has done very well -- is vibrant, healthy and happy -- doesn't want to socialize with other dogs. But this pup loves the company of dogs more than people any day. It has broken my heart.


If the Schnauzer was your only other dog I ASSume you won't get another dog and the Shep Mix will be alone and you won't have to worry about more such incidents. Since she 'loves the company of other dogs' then she is apparently not vicious. The incident was not witnessed so there is no way of knowing what happened. I also assume that the dogs had lived in harmony up to (but not including) the last day.
Sorry for the loss of your terrier.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Betty said:


> Yes you are entitled to your opinion but expect it to be challenged when it is contrary to the opinions of most people well versed and experienced in canine behavior and pack dynamics.
> 
> There is more then your "opinion" at stake here. Your opinion could cause a dog to pay the ultimate price for being a dog.


I don't care if people challenge it, just don't become upset that I am challenging any of yours either. 

I don't have all day to argue on here today, OP-I stand by my opinion. This dog should never be left alone with any other animals again. Rehome her or don't leave her alone with your other pets. Best of luck.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I don't care if people challenge it, just don't become upset that I am challenging any of yours either.
> 
> I don't have all day to argue on here today, OP-I stand by my opinion. This dog should never be left alone with any other animals again. Rehome her or don't leave her alone with your other pets. Best of luck.


The opinion you wrote that was being challenged was that the dog was vicious, not that it should not be left alone with other animals.

Trust me, it won't upset me in the least.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I hope any one reading this thread that does leave dogs together unattended with rethink the practice.

So much can go so horribly wrong so quickly..........


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

First I would like to off my condolences. The loss of a beloved pet is something that can be overwhelming for some people. Myself included.

I would like to add that not only is it possible to two females to fight. But a male and female are capable to doing considerable damage to one another. 

We had the 3 females, ages 6,2 and 1, then we adopted a male from a kill shelter who was listed as a stay so we had no background history on him. 
Our vet estimated his age between 9-11 months old, but the shelter had thought 4-5 yrs old because this boy is huge for a gsd.

Things went well for the first week, Lacy the 6 yr old was the alpha dog, so the adopted dog decided to try to outrank the bottom level dog, my 1 yr old. We had some knock down battles that had to be broke up and one of more times we had to head to the vet to have one or the other stitched up. This happened numerous times. 
Then one day he decided to take on the Alpha dog. He outwieghs Lacy by a good 15lbs, I am afraid to think what might have happened had I not been there. Lacy was holding her own until he backed her into the wall where he latched onto her head. 

It took me hitting him with what ever I had on hand (can't recall) to get him off Lacy. I had to race Lacy in the the e vets for emerg treatment to get her face sown up. The vet told me how lucky she was that she didn't loose her eye.

It took a long time for me to trust the male, I didn't know him very well and this was not a good start.
They had bickering after that day but never to the extent of that fight. 

The thing is, ANY dog can show aggressive behavior. Why? I don't know, I'm not a dog. I can try to think like a dog and figure out what is going on, but at the end of the day, I am still not hard wired to think like they do.


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

As a side note, it's been one year this past June since cancer stole our Lacy. It took a good 3 months before the dogs decided that she wasn't coming back and Larka assumed the role of Alpha dog.
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Every once in awhile there is a suttle hint that the male is going to try to out rank the female for leadership.

It has become second nature to never leave those two alone and together. No matter how much I love and trust them with me, I still remember the bloody fights and will always be on my guard to try to prevent the next one.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Thanks for sharing your OPINION but…..it's just an opinion. You have no clue what really happened. Not all pits are the same, not all terrier's are the same. You don't even know if the attack was over the guarding of a possession and you present this as a fact, but last time I read the OP's first statement, she wasn't even home when it happened, so we are all assuming-including you.


 
BUT - YOU made a statement - NOT an opinion - that the dog was "Vicious" and should be pts. You have no clue what happened as you say. And sorry - terriers ARE alike, PBs are alike - not all get triggered into typical behavior. That is what breeding and genetics are about - to produce animals with distinct type and similarities in temperament. Sure there are a range of behaviors within type, and some never go to the edge of the genetic behaviors, but behaviors are distinct and typical to breeds. 

There are many possible scenerios here, bottom line is that it was pack dynamics with evidence of a prey object. 

There is no evidence that the GSD is vicious. Any more than my dog killing a rat in a horse barn makes it vicious - or the JRT killing a rat in a horse barn makes IT vicious. It is prey and possession and challenge. Thus I took offence at your prounouncement that the GSD was vicious as a statement of fact. Action = conclusion. Not enough evidence to support the conclusion, much evidence against it. No history of aggression and actually history of NON aggression towards other dog. Thus, conclusion is NOT "vicious" - but circumstance triggered action.

Not difference of "opinion" - emotion vs logic.

Lee


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

It seems the OP - joslin, never came back after the first post. Odd.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *Rehome her* or don't leave her alone with your other pets. Best of luck.


It's rather presumptive to expect people to take on a dog who actually killed another dog. As you've seen, people tend to be repelled by that type behavior. 
Further, why give your dog up even if it did that? You might wind up giving it to a less-educated person who does not believe in separating dogs when they are gone, and the disaster perpetuates itself again. 

I'd simply keep the dogs separated when I left - it's not hard to do using doors, gates, indoor/outdoor, crates, etc.


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## Dynamo (Sep 4, 2011)

EchoGSD said:


> It is heart wrenching when one beloved pet kills another beloved pet. My friend Maggie has shelties (she gave us our lovely Ruby); 2 intact males (brothers, different litters), and 2 intact females. Alpha male was Quincy............ adults and pups were mingling at our feet. Maggie dropped a treat, her star male pup of the litter went to get it, and Quincy bit him on the head. The bite was quick, hard, and sharp. His canine tooth went right through the pups skull, shattering it............. he didn't attack the pup with malice or with the intent to kill -- he is very food possessive (not to mention Maggie-possessive), and he did what comes naturally to herding dogs: he nipped the pup. He had no idea that the nip would kill the pup...





e.rigby said:


> That wasn't a nip. An adult dog has bite inhibition, and were he just correcting the pup it wouldn't have been a full pressured bite.............. it doesn't have anything to do with his breed.


To say adult dogs have bite inhibition is an overly idealistic statement. Not all dogs have bite inhibition. It may well have been just a "nip" to a hard-biting dog, and a puppy that young can easily have a skull fractured if hit at the right angle by a canine tooth. Keep in mind this is a breed that as an adult would only weigh 15-30 pounds, so the puppies are small. Just as not every dog gives as much warning before biting, the instinct of correcting a puppy _fairly _is not something every dog has. The dogs bite was a combination of rearing, training (admittedly was allowed to be “alpha”), and genetics.

I think it has a *lot *to do with breed, in general, but more specifically "breeding. It's a huge factor in the _way_ a dog bites, fights, and when. I'm not saying it's because this is a herding breed, but just in general that _bite _has to do with breeding, meaning genetics. Were these working Shelties that herd, of herding bloodlines, or probably of another purpose like show? I don't know how Sheltie's herd, because I don't know of anyone who uses them for herding. But even a dog that has no actual potential to herd can still retain characteristics like nipping heels, etc. Dogs herd differently. For example, stock dogs (such as ACD's) are bred to bite cattle when necessary. Regardless, herding dogs do bite if you watch some dogs with fresh cattle that are not dog-broke. Those dogs have power and bite towards an 800-pound animal. In this video, you'll see a Border Collie working cows, getting ahold of a cows nose and not letting go, they can't be backed down 



. As someone said, Schnauzers are of a terrier type and can be pretty tough sometimes. But we don't even know that this "Schnauzer" was a miniature or what, all the OP said was "older Schnauzer mix." 

I agree with e.rigby that it is very foolish to have a litter of puppies around anyone but mom, especially an in-tact male who is already problematic. Sometimes dogs can be very, very intolerant and cruel to puppies, you just don't put them with adult dogs unless they are truly safe.


Anyway, back to this case with the GSD... everyone can argue their points, but once again we are missing too much information to draw any hard conclusions. *When someone comes up with a conclusion based on so incomplete information, they are usually going from what they feel emotionally, and adding in their own assumptions and biases*.


As a behavior consultant, I have to gather all the information, as well as evaluate the dog, in order to form any conclusions. I don't read a short paragraph and label an unseen dog "viscous." I would hold off on those opinions until you have more of a complete picture.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Dynamo said:


> Anyway, back to this case with the GSD... everyone can argue their points, but once again we are missing too much information to draw any hard conclusions. *When someone comes up with a conclusion based on so incomplete information, they are usually going from what they feel emotionally, and adding in their own assumptions and biases*.


This goes for everybody, not just those who's opinions you don't agree with. If you can't say that the dog is vicious, then you sure can't say he isn't because NOBODY knows what happened.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I agree with e.rigby that it is very foolish to have a litter of puppies around anyone but mom, especially an in-tact male who is already problematic. Sometimes dogs can be very, very intolerant and cruel to puppies, you just don't put them with adult dogs unless they are truly safe.


I think this behavior on the human's part comes from the belief that dogs actually can reason (beyond their limited capability) and think and make "good" decisions. After all, humans don't kill their offspring (as a rule) and thus, a dog should be able to figure out it's a fragile puppy, right?? And not to bite it, or at least bite so hard??
I get so tired of people thinking dogs think like they think. It causes untold problems and heartache over!


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This goes for everybody, not just those who's opinions you don't agree with. If you can't say that the dog is vicious, then you sure can't say he isn't because NOBODY knows what happened.


There is such a big difference between those two stances.............

Vicious dog= death in many people's minds.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Dynamo said:


> To say adult dogs have bite inhibition is an overly idealistic statement. Not all dogs have bite inhibition. It may well have been just a "nip" to a hard-biting dog, and a puppy that young can easily have a skull fractured if hit at the right angle by a canine tooth. Keep in mind this is a breed that as an adult would only weigh 15-30 pounds, so the puppies are small. Just as not every dog gives as much warning before biting, the instinct of correcting a puppy _fairly _is not something every dog has. The dogs bite was a combination of rearing, training (admittedly was allowed to be “alpha”), and genetics.
> 
> I think it has a  *lot *to do with breed, in general, but more specifically "breeding. It's a huge factor in the _way_ a dog bites, fights, and when. I'm not saying it's because this is a herding breed, but just in general that _bite _has to do with breeding, meaning genetics. Were these working Shelties that herd, of herding bloodlines, or probably of another purpose like show? I don't know how Sheltie's herd, because I don't know of anyone who uses them for herding. But even a dog that has no actual potential to herd can still retain characteristics like nipping heels, etc. Dogs herd differently. For example, stock dogs (such as ACD's) are bred to bite cattle when necessary. Regardless, herding dogs do bite if you watch some dogs with fresh cattle that are not dog-broke. Those dogs have power and bite towards an 800-pound animal. In this video, you'll see a Border Collie working cows, getting ahold of a cows nose and not letting go, they can't be backed down Knight Family Border Collies-Cattle.mpg - YouTube. As someone said, Schnauzers are of a terrier type and can be pretty tough sometimes. But we don't even know that this "Schnauzer" was a miniature or what, all the OP said was "older Schnauzer mix."
> 
> ...


First, I loved the video you posted. 

Second, a dog in a pack situation does have bite inhibition. Not only have I been around an absurdly large number of herding dogs, I've been around many Aussies, BC, and Shelties (I've worked my dogs in herding). I have yet to see any be unable to inhibit their bite (it's even demonstrated by the video you posted) The dogs start off less forceful and get more forceful as dictated by the herd. 

I think the main problem with the in tact Sheltie killing the puppy was one of intolerance and resource guarding. A lot of times and intolerant dog is going to jump straight to the most forceful means of pushing something it doesn't want away. Resource guarding is just another example of fear, and fear can often times produce the worse bought of aggression.

I learned that best while working with parrots. A parrot that just wants you to 'get the point' isn't necessarily going to bite down (unless it's learned that's the only way to get the point across -- typically the point is 'go away' or 'leave me alone') but a fearful bird is fighting for much more (it's afraid it is in danger) and when it bites it's going to hurt like ****!

So I still do no believe the dog being a Sheltie (or the type of breeding it had) caused it to nip. Not at all! I also don't believe what it did was a nip, it was a full forced bite brought on by the fear it was going to loose a resource probably mixed in with a bit of intolerance of having the puppy around. Any dog, regardless of breed, can be fearful and intolerant! I'd also like to add, that I wholly believe different breeds have different traits associated with them and it's often appropriate to lump them all together -- I just don't see what happened in the case of the Sheltie as being something related to it being a Sheltie!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It bit because it has a mouth, and teeth 

I'm amazed people seemed amazed that dogs do and will bite...


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It bit because it has a mouth, and teeth
> 
> I'm amazed people seemed amazed that dogs do and will bite...


Heh  When I'm at the park walking the dogs, and someone shouts at me "Does your dog bite" I typically respond with "Well, he has teeth doesn't he?" to which they'll say "No, I meant, is he friendly" and if I'm in a mood I'll typically say "He can be" ... people amuse me  but where I live, which tends to have a high crime rate, I'm slow to say my dog is friendly when people ask in that manner! I'd rather they be a little fearful and not approach me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

:laugh: I'd reply too, with "Well it depends..." or "sometimes!" They don't need to know our dogs can be marshmallows...or, as with one of ours who passed away last year, he'd follow you anywhere if you had a tennis ball!


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## Tessa99999 (Apr 16, 2010)

I am so sorry for your loss. It's an extremely difficult and tentative situation with something like this happens. I'm sure this has probably been said before, but in my own personal opinion I think that rehoming your GSD with an experienced owner who either doesn't have dogs or had large enough dogs who can take a hit. I do believe it would be very difficult to look at your young shepherd in the same way after something like this. If it is possible for you to continue caring her I commend you in that effort, but if it is just too much for you, I believe the best option is rehoming.

Again I am so very sorry for your loss, and I hope your pain is eased sooner rather than later.


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

Tessa99999 said:


> I am so sorry for your loss. It's an extremely difficult and tentative situation with something like this happens. I'm sure this has probably been said before, but in my own personal opinion I think that rehoming your GSD with an experienced owner who either doesn't have dogs or had large enough dogs who can take a hit. I do believe it would be very difficult to look at your young shepherd in the same way after something like this. If it is possible for you to continue caring her I commend you in that effort, but if it is just too much for you, I believe the best option is rehoming.
> 
> Again I am so very sorry for your loss, and I hope your pain is eased sooner rather than later.


 Very well said. :rip: to your beloved family member.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> he'd follow you anywhere if you had a tennis ball!


Virgil would too  crazy dog that he is!


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## joslin (Sep 3, 2011)

*Thanks, everyone.*

I appreciate all of the condolences and ideas about how this may have happened. As I read and think and cry, I am well aware that much of the responsibility lies with me. Maybe to have a couple of lap dogs and leave them alone is one thing. But I chose to leave a mix of dogs alone in the yard, even though I was home, and never, ever thought this would happen. How naive I was. And my sweet old dog paid the price for my ignorance of pack dog mentality. If anyone reading this can learn my this tragic mistake, then I am grateful. Taffy stayed out of everyone's way, and Ali had never so much as growled at another dog. And yet, there were some subtle signs that i just did not know enough to respect. I am now considering board/training Ali (and us!) for a month to give her, and us, a break to re-group, and have her assessed long term. Not sure, just considering it. Have talked this over with our vet. Meanwhile, I look for strength as I constantly reach for Taffy forgetting that I had to bury her. Thank you for the support and suggestions.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Joslin, my sympathies to you....I realize some of this went off at a tangent - but I know that everyone here is very sorry for your loss!

Lee


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

My heart breaks for you, this could of been me or pretty much anyone at some point in our dog owning life.

I know someone that has trained, titled, and managed kennels and he thought it would never happen to him. He came home one day to find out it had, and trust me he is pretty good at reading dog language.

I hope you can find peace.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

So sad.

The board away might be a good idea just to have a little breather. I know it can be hard to immediately "forgive" even though you don't know what really happened and if the underlying feelings are there it might rub off on the other dogs.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Joslin, I am so sorry. Please keep us updated on what happens.

I have a terrier. I think he's Jack Russell and Fox terrier. For the most part, they don't back down from anything.


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss, I am crying just thinking about what you have gone through. As another poster said, this situation could happen to many of us. I know at one time I had a beagle, a terrier, a shepherd mix, a lab and a boxer/pit mix all living in house and yard together...and no they weren't supervised at all times. 

Again, so very sorry this happened.


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## dogdragoness (Jul 26, 2011)

I have a prob with Izze, my cattle dog & my folks female for some reason. My folks think that Yumi is this innocent victim & that Izze was the aggressor, but while I visited home the last time I watched them interact & its not Izze's fault: Izze will be laying on the patio mindingher own business, Yumi will come & stare her down, Izze tries to ignore her/ give calming signals but she doesn't get it. My folks get mad, but I correct Yumi when she is doing this & I also correct her when she disrespectful behavior twds me or Josefina (the pup, my avatar) & it has been helping... Plus I save face as leader .


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