# Somehow my bought from a random family dog is a treasure



## germanshepowner

We heard about a family near us that had some accidental puppies. They had found homes for all but 4. And they were keeping one but had 3 left. (Unfortunately I heard two might have went to the shelter :/) We decided to just randomly go and see one last year. We had been looking at shelters near us for almost a year and there’s a huge waitlist around here so we basically gave up.

They weren’t BYB’s. The two ex owners cried when they handed us the puppy. But they certainly weren’t experienced so I knew we were taking a gamble. And somehow luck was on our side (which was great because we’ve had awful luck with health/other stuff this year) because my 10 month old is a dream. 

I just can’t believe we got so lucky. She’s calm in the house and she acts like a 6 year old dog at least. But the second you take her outside, she has a very high drive but is still very obedient. We got her health tested and she wasn’t a carrier or at risk for any of the 200 or so diseases they test for as well! And she’s absolutely gorgeous. She learns a new trick in just a few repetitions. I think the calmness makes me the most happy though. It’s like we have a calm older dog in the house already! 

Some of the photos of her a few months ago. She’s not in the breed standard. 27 inches already. But thin and healthy. 

Proud brag over ?


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## Sunsilver

Pretty girl! 

I have a soft spot for the black ones...

Yup, you get lucky sometimes. I've had a number of rescue German shepherds over the years, and only one had serious health problems.


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## MineAreWorkingline

She is very pretty. I wish you the best of luck with her. 

I had a very calm puppy once. By the time she matured at 2 years and lost her puppy enthusiasm, everyone that then met her thought that she was a very old dog! I later placed her with my elderly mother when my father died as my mother was in good shape and still loved daily walks. The dog would walk with her only a few blocks and refuse to walk any further. Poor mom! She wound up leaving the dog at home and went back to walking alone.


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## JonRob

You didn't get lucky.

You got smart.

I'm assuming that you met your dog's parents and they were sound stable dogs.

If you want a sound stable companion/family dog, the best place to get a puppy is often from a nice couple or family who occasionally breed their sound stable pet dogs that are house dogs--no kennels or outdoor dogs!--and have passed the appropriate health testing.

Genetics, I learned the hard way, is the most important thing when it comes to temperament and behavior. Socialization and training are very important but their results are determined by genetics.

If you don't believe this, check out the Russian tame and aggressive foxes. The Russians have developed two lines of fur farm foxes, one very tame and the other very aggressive. When they implanted aggressive-fox embryos into tame-fox mothers and had the tame-fox mothers raise them, guess how the pups turned out? Very aggressive.

Some info here, for those who like a scientific point of view:

Foxes | Kukekova Lab


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## CometDog

She is beautiful! Congratulations, many happy years wished for you  Were both parents GSDs? I have a tall one too. He is 27.5 inches.


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## germanshepowner

Sunsilver said:


> Pretty girl!
> 
> I have a soft spot for the black ones...
> 
> Yup, you get lucky sometimes. I've had a number of rescue German shepherds over the years, and only one had serious health problems.


I think I’m biased towards black GSD’s forever now ?



MineAreWorkingline said:


> She is very pretty. I wish you the best of luck with her.
> 
> I had a very calm puppy once. By the time she matured at 2 years and lost her puppy enthusiasm, everyone that then met her thought that she was a very old dog! I later placed her with my elderly mother when my father died as my mother was in good shape and still loved daily walks. The dog would walk with her only a few blocks and refuse to walk any further. Poor mom! She wound up leaving the dog at home and went back to walking alone.


Thank you! Your poor mom!!! I think with how high her drive is once we step outside, hopefully I’ll always have a walking partner! 



JonRob said:


> You didn't get lucky.
> 
> You got smart.
> 
> I'm assuming that you met your dog's parents and they were sound stable dogs.
> 
> If you want a sound stable companion/family dog, the best place to get a puppy is often from a nice couple or family who occasionally breed their sound stable pet dogs that are house dogs--no kennels or outdoor dogs!--and have passed the appropriate health testing.
> 
> Genetics, I learned the hard way, is the most important thing when it comes to temperament and behavior. Socialization and training are very important but their results are determined by genetics.
> 
> If you don't believe this, check out the Russian tame and aggressive foxes. The Russians have developed two lines of fur farm foxes, one very tame and the other very aggressive. When they implanted aggressive-fox embryos into tame-fox mothers and had the tame-fox mothers raise them, guess how the pups turned out? Very aggressive.
> 
> Some info here, for those who like a scientific point of view:
> 
> Foxes | Kukekova Lab


Hahaha yes, I did meet the parents. I was ready to make any amount of $$$ offer on the site. Most incredible dog I’ve ever seen in my life. That’s really interesting as well!!!! I believe it. My dog is exactly like her sire was.


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## crittersitter

Congratulations on your find! Beautiful young dog.


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## Saco

That's great- and it sounds like the dog is drivey once out of the home, just calm in the house (the enviable on-off switch). My first GSD was a treasure like yours, unknown pedigree, beautiful, no health problems perfect temperament. High energy outside the home, calm energy in the house and absolutely terrific with small children. 

Sometimes I wish I'd bred her, many people stopped me and asked me if I was a GSD breeder, or where I got her, because she was such a perfect example of a balanced GSD, and unfortunately there aren't a whole lot out there in public.

Congratulations, he is beautiful.


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## Steve Strom

I heard some one say once "The best dog in the world is laying in someones yard" Could be yours. Congrats.


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## germanshepowner

Saco said:


> That's great- and it sounds like the dog is drivey once out of the home, just calm in the house (the enviable on-off switch). My first GSD was a treasure like yours, unknown pedigree, beautiful, no health problems perfect temperament. High energy outside the home, calm energy in the house and absolutely terrific with small children.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I'd bred her, many people stopped me and asked me if I was a GSD breeder, or where I got her, because she was such a perfect example of a balanced GSD, and unfortunately there aren't a whole lot out there in public.
> 
> Congratulations, he is beautiful.


I know I don’t have it in me to be a breeder but we are planning on spaying her and I have a tiny part of me that feels bad about that.. I’d like to just have a million generations of her!


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## Sunsilver

One thing I notice in the first photo is she looks very underweight: you can see her backbone!

Make sure you get her wormed, and are feeding a high-quality kibble! (She's got a nice shine to her coat, and is very bright eyed, so she's not severely malnourished, just looks underweight.)

When one of my females was in the 5 to 7 months age range, I was feeding her more than what the package instructions recommended, and she STILL looked really skinny! She was growing so fast, I just couldn't keep any weight on her!

When she reached a year old, and had her first heat, her metabolism slowed down dramatically, and I was able to reduce the amount of food.


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## Nigel

Sunsilver said:


> One thing I notice in the first photo is she looks very underweight: you can see her backbone!
> 
> Make sure you get her wormed, and are feeding a high-quality kibble! (She's got a nice shine to her coat, and is very bright eyed, so she's not severely malnourished, just looks underweight.)
> 
> When one of my females was in the 5 to 7 months age range, I was feeding her more than what the package instructions recommended, and she STILL looked really skinny! She was growing so fast, I just couldn't keep any weight on her!
> 
> When she reached a year old, and had her first heat, her metabolism slowed down dramatically, and I was able to reduce the amount of food.


I could be wrong as I’m viewing from my phone, but I believe that’s just wavy hair as part of her Grrrr stripe and not her spine showing. :smile2:


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## Aly

Lovely story and beautiful girl, congratulations on your find. I'm far from an expert, but she looks thin in the first photo to me too. Not malnourished, but thinner than I'd prefer. OTOH, lots of well-bred and well managed dogs look 'thin' until they hit adulthood and come into themselves, so to say.


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## Sunsilver

Nigel, you could be right, but her shape in that photo looks kind of skinny, too.


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## germanshepowner

Sunsilver said:


> One thing I notice in the first photo is she looks very underweight: you can see her backbone!
> 
> Make sure you get her wormed, and are feeding a high-quality kibble! (She's got a nice shine to her coat, and is very bright eyed, so she's not severely malnourished, just looks underweight.)
> 
> When one of my females was in the 5 to 7 months age range, I was feeding her more than what the package instructions recommended, and she STILL looked really skinny! She was growing so fast, I just couldn't keep any weight on her!
> 
> When she reached a year old, and had her first heat, her metabolism slowed down dramatically, and I was able to reduce the amount of food.


I should clarify! She was recovering from kennel cough in those photos! She was very trim! I’ll post an updated photo. She’s now around 27 inches and 70 pounds 



Aly said:


> Lovely story and beautiful girl, congratulations on your find. I'm far from an expert, but she looks thin in the first photo to me too. Not malnourished, but thinner than I'd prefer. OTOH, lots of well-bred and well managed dogs look 'thin' until they hit adulthood and come into themselves, so to say.


I really hope she does mature soon! She was recovering from kennel cough back then so she was super thin! She’s now healthy again. But still thin. I’m gonna post updated photos!


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## germanshepowner

I probably shouldn’t have posted photos from her awkward gangly teenage stage and recovery from pneumonia! I still want her to gain more weight but she grew an inch in the last month so it’s an ongoing struggle! Any tips would be appreciated!


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## germanshepowner

Here’s her now! 27 inches giant. Yikes 

She has her meals separated into four meals a day. As much as she wants. She does get quite a bit of exercise though. She was very ill 3-4 months ago which halted weight gain. She did just get a ton of tests run because our vet is very savvy and everything was fine. But any suggestions would be appreciated


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## tim_s_adams

Your dog is young and growing so yeah, there will be some awkward stages along the way. She will likely fill out fine, mine did, though at times I had my doubts! This is her at about 8 months, the another more recently, she's 2 1/2 now...


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## Sunsilver

She's trim, but I don't see any ribs showing, so you're doing okay with her. As I mentioned, I had a similar problem with one of my females at that age, too! She'd just inhale her food, and still looked really skinny!

Just feed her good food, as much as she wants, and wait it out. Her metabolism will slow down once she's finished growing!

27 inches - yikes, she's going to be a BIG girl! That's 3 inches over the standard for females already!!


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## germanshepowner

tim_s_adams said:


> Your dog is young and growing so yeah, there will be some awkward stages along the way. She will likely fill out fine, mine did, though at times I had my doubts! This is her at about 8 months, the another more recently, she's 2 1/2 now...


Wow! She is so gorgeous!!!! What a beautiful dog. She looks in perfect shape as well! 



Sunsilver said:


> She's trim, but I don't see any ribs showing, so you're doing okay with her. As I mentioned, I had a similar problem with one of my females at that age, too! She'd just inhale her food, and still looked really skinny!
> 
> Just feed her good food, as much as she wants, and wait it out. Her metabolism will slow down once she's finished growing!
> 
> 27 inches - yikes, she's going to be a BIG girl! That's 3 inches over the standard for females already!!


Thank you! She does inhale her food and her weight has basically hit a plateau because her height is changing so fast. I took her off puppy food pretty young as well to slow the growth. I started measuring her food as a puppy with a food scale... and after a few months when the growth started, I just started feeding her until she would walk away from the bowl. Makes meal time much faster without meticulously measuring food out! ?

I always think she’s small because she’s so much thinner than male GSD’s but she’s also taller than every GSD and every dog we’ve met now besides a Great Dane so... I guess I should give myself a reality check!


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## Lillydog

My boy Ruger is a great dog from very iffy genetics. I bought him off on Craigslist ( I know, insane) and he was advertised as Czech/DDR. Father was a little intimidating, mother was standoffish. They were family pets living in a home. I picked Ruger because I loved the way he was always leading his pack of littermates as they ran through the house. He was super outgoing and friendly. 
No neuroses except for a brief phase of tail chasing. 
I did some research, found out he was basically total backyard breeder dogs for generations, not even any show titles for anything. A dash of Karthago on dam’s bottom line. 
I’ve worked with a great sport dog trainer who loves him. High end of medium drive, sweet, fabulous with my boys, pretty biddable, no fear issues, just a blast to work with. Good hunt drive, good prey drive, lower on defense. He shows nice aptitude for herding, too. Just a good family dog.


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## Lillydog

Ruger last summer at four months old.


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## germanshepowner

Lillydog said:


> My boy Ruger is a great dog from very iffy genetics. I bought him off on Craigslist ( I know, insane) and he was advertised as Czech/DDR. Father was a little intimidating, mother was standoffish. They were family pets living in a home. I picked Ruger because I loved the way he was always leading his pack of littermates as they ran through the house. He was super outgoing and friendly.
> No neuroses except for a brief phase of tail chasing.
> I did some research, found out he was basically total backyard breeder dogs for generations, not even any show titles for anything. A dash of Karthago on dam’s bottom line.
> I’ve worked with a great sport dog trainer who loves him. High end of medium drive, sweet, fabulous with my boys, pretty biddable, no fear issues, just a blast to work with. Good hunt drive, good prey drive, lower on defense. He shows nice aptitude for herding, too. Just a good family dog.


Sounds like we both got lucky! ? He’s absolutely gorgeous as well!!!


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## Aly

germanshepowner said:


> I should clarify! She was recovering from kennel cough in those photos! She’s now healthy again. But still thin. I’m gonna post updated photos!


Ah, I missed the part about kennel cough; that can set things back a bit. She looks good in the later photos and, at 27 inches, she's going to be a tall girl. I shouldn't worry. Rachel (pup in my avatar) was what I like to call an "air hose puppy." She grew slowly, with absolutely _no _gangly/awkward phases, as if someone had stuck an air hose in her butt and slowly inflated. LOL. Some pups are like that. Other pups can grow like my last female IW did. For first the first 2 years, she looked astonishingly like a _giraffe_ --- looooong neck, all legs, a big belly and no proportion _at all_. Athletic as all get out, but she sure looked like a gangly mess of parts. LOL. By 4 years, however, she'd filled out, her chest 'dropped,' and she hit her adult weight and musculature. Below is a photo that same girl at 10 yrs, supervising the neighbors. 

IME, each pup grows according to its' own schedule (assuming good genetics and good care). Enjoy your gorgeous girl.


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## germanshepowner

Aly said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I should clarify! She was recovering from kennel cough in those photos! She’s now healthy again. But still thin. I’m gonna post updated photos!
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I missed the part about kennel cough; that can set things back a bit. She looks good in the later photos and, at 27 inches, she's going to be a tall girl. I shouldn't worry. Rachel (pup in my avatar) was what I like to call an "air hose puppy." She grew slowly, with absolutely _no _gangly/awkward phases, as if someone had stuck an air hose in her butt and slowly inflated. LOL. Some pups are like that. Other pups can grow like my last female IW did. For first the first 2 years, she looked astonishingly like a _giraffe_ --- looooong neck, all legs, a big belly and no proportion _at all_. Athletic as all get out, but she sure looked like a gangly mess of parts. LOL. By 4 years, however, she'd filled out, her chest 'dropped,' and she hit her adult weight and musculature. Below is a photo that same girl at 10 yrs, supervising the neighbors.
> 
> IME, each pup grows according to its' own schedule (assuming good genetics and good care). Enjoy your gorgeous girl.
Click to expand...

She’s absolutely beautiful! Those are just really great dogs. So hard to get around here though! I’m jealous! I would love for a little hose steady growth! My girl has looked like an awkward giraffe since about 5 months old. Pudgy puppy to tall gangly girl!


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## markhenley

She's a beautiful dog. I have a black one too. He's 1/2 show and 1/2 working line, but very mellow, and looks very much like your girl. Congratz!


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## Sunsilver

germanshepowner said:


> Here’s her now! 27 inches giant. Yikes
> 
> She has her meals separated into four meals a day. As much as she wants. She does get quite a bit of exercise though. She was very ill 3-4 months ago which halted weight gain. She did just get a ton of tests run because our vet is very savvy and everything was fine. But any suggestions would be appreciated


I see she's starting to grow into those ears...lol!

Don't worry about her - every dog has their own schedule for growth! I think you are doing fine. You've done all the tests, so you know she's healthy.

Once she's filled out, just make sure you cut her food back. So many dogs our there are overweight, and that is definitely NOT good for their health!

When my girl finished her 'bottomless pit' stage, she let me know by leaving food in her bowl, so I cut her back to what she'd finish in one sitting. She's still very healthy at 12 years of age!


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## selzer

They are breeders, and I don't believe in accidental purebred German Shepherd litters. There is no reason to say anything to the person though. Just so you know, it isn't hard to keep GSDs intact and not have litters. Most folks who have litters, but don't want to be criticized for doing so say, "whoops!" and then everyone is happy. Except me. It pisses me off because it fuels the spay/neuter everything on four legs regime. 

The reasons we buy from responsible breeders are many, sometimes we are looking for a dog for a specific purpose, and sometimes we want a dog bred with health and longeveity produced in their lines. Health and temperament ought to be a given. But any living thing can and will have health concerns. Your dog is really no less likely to be unhealthy or poor temperament than any other. It SHOULD be a family treasure, so long as you do your part. 

We just, in general, do not want to encourage bad breeding practices by fueling the people who cut all the corners and treat their breeding stock poorly.


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## atomic

There are so many good dogs out there from “less than scrupulous sources”. I’m not advocating against breeders, and I’m a believer that genetics play a huge role in what you get BUT it is not a guarantee. I’m also a big believer in diversity, without it nature will start to weed you out. There are an abundance of dogs, great ones, in need of homes and not enough resources to accommodate. There are many people who can offer a wonderful home but can’t pay thousands of dollars for a dog. This is why BYB exists and profits.


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## germanshepowner

Sunsilver said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s her now! 27 inches giant. Yikes
> 
> She has her meals separated into four meals a day. As much as she wants. She does get quite a bit of exercise though. She was very ill 3-4 months ago which halted weight gain. She did just get a ton of tests run because our vet is very savvy and everything was fine. But any suggestions would be appreciated
> 
> 
> 
> I see she's starting to grow into those ears...lol!
> 
> Don't worry about her - every dog has their own schedule for growth! I think you are doing fine. You've done all the tests, so you know she's healthy.
> 
> Once she's filled out, just make sure you cut her food back. So many dogs our there are overweight, and that is definitely NOT good for their health!
> 
> When my girl finished her 'bottomless pit' stage, she let me know by leaving food in her bowl, so I cut her back to what she'd finish in one sitting. She's still very healthy at 12 years of age!
Click to expand...

I really hope we finish the bottomless pit stage too! Hehehe. I definitely will never ever let her get overweight. I feel sick when I see a very heavy GSD! ? 


selzer said:


> They are breeders, and I don't believe in accidental purebred German Shepherd litters. There is no reason to say anything to the person though. Just so you know, it isn't hard to keep GSDs intact and not have litters. Most folks who have litters, but don't want to be criticized for doing so say, "whoops!" and then everyone is happy. Except me. It pisses me off because it fuels the spay/neuter everything on four legs regime.
> 
> The reasons we buy from responsible breeders are many, sometimes we are looking for a dog for a specific purpose, and sometimes we want a dog bred with health and longeveity produced in their lines. Health and temperament ought to be a given. But any living thing can and will have health concerns. Your dog is really no less likely to be unhealthy or poor temperament than any other. It SHOULD be a family treasure, so long as you do your part.
> 
> We just, in general, do not want to encourage bad breeding practices by fueling the people who cut all the corners and treat their breeding stock poorly.


We’ve kept in touch with them and become friends and it really was a one off accident. They cried when they handed her to us and actually tried to keep a puppy which didn’t work. They rehomed that one and we’re friends with that owner now as well. At this point, I wish they were breeders because I would buy a second dog ASAP!!!! We’ve gotten our dog fully tested by the vet, DNA tested for genetic issues, and our vet has X-ray’d her hips now and officially said, she’s perfect! We’re so thrilled.

But yes I honestly will never again get a dog that isn’t from a breeder. She was going to the shelter and that’s where I’ve always gotten all my dogs, but I’m reformed after having a really great purebred dog now. I’ve always had shelter dogs with health issues and MASSIVE temperament issues. This dog doesn’t freak out at anything. She is the smartest dog I’ve ever met albeit a bit goofy and clumsy.


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## Sunsilver

selzer said:


> They are breeders, and I don't believe in accidental purebred German Shepherd litters. There is no reason to say anything to the person though. Just so you know, it isn't hard to keep GSDs intact and not have litters. Most folks who have litters, but don't want to be criticized for doing so say, "whoops!" and then everyone is happy. Except me. It pisses me off because it fuels the spay/neuter everything on four legs regime.


Selzer, there are oops litters that happen through ignorance (OMG, I didn't KNOW she was in heat!! No one told me they could have babies so YOUNG!) Yeah, maybe DO YOUR HOMEWORK next time?? There are also 'oops' litters that DO happen to responsible breeders.

My 12 year old is the product of the latter sort of litter. Her mom managed to unlatch her kennel, then climbed an 8 foot tall chain link fence and got herself in with the stud. Her breeder told me he thought she was related to Harry Houdini. Her offspring, Star, has some of her mom's escape artist tendencies, too. She opens cupboard doors and gates, and learned how to open the latch on the screen door. I woke up one morning, and she was GONE! Fortunately, she did not get herself hit by a car during the night, and was waiting for me patiently outside the kennel gate when I got up! 

It may be a good thing I had her spayed due to a mildly dysplastic hip at the age of 2, or I might have found myself the owner of an 'oops' litter, too!

Edited to add: The couple who bred Star were professional breeders and show people, with many titled dogs. The wife had a good cry when I put Star inside my vehicle to take her home!


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## germanshepowner

Sunsilver said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are breeders, and I don't believe in accidental purebred German Shepherd litters. There is no reason to say anything to the person though. Just so you know, it isn't hard to keep GSDs intact and not have litters. Most folks who have litters, but don't want to be criticized for doing so say, "whoops!" and then everyone is happy. Except me. It pisses me off because it fuels the spay/neuter everything on four legs regime.
> 
> 
> 
> Selzer, there are oops litters that happen through ignorance (OMG, I didn't KNOW she was in heat!! No one told me they could have babies so YOUNG!) Yeah, maybe DO YOUR HOMEWORK next time?? There are also 'oops' litters that DO happen to responsible breeders.
> 
> My 12 year old is the product of the latter sort of litter. Her mom managed to unlatch her kennel, then climbed an 8 foot tall chain link fence and got herself in with the stud. Her breeder told me he thought she was related to Harry Houdini. Her offspring, Star, has some of her mom's escape artist tendencies, too. She opens cupboard doors and gates, and learned how to open the latch on the screen door. I woke up one morning, and she was GONE! Fortunately, she did not get herself hit by a car during the night, and was waiting for me patiently outside the kennel gate when I got up!
> 
> It may be a good thing I had her spayed due to a mildly dysplastic hip at the age of 2, or I might have found myself the owner of an 'oops' litter, too!
> 
> Edited to add: The couple who bred Star were professional breeders and show people, with many titled dogs. The wife had a good cry when I put Star inside my vehicle to take her home!
Click to expand...

I cracked up at the Houdini part! ?? LOL! I think some dogs must just have that strong urge to breed. I know as a kid, my parents had a dog that would OPEN and unlock doors. It was super creepy! We still don’t know how. And she’d run to the neighbors male dog (thankfully he was older and infertile). But I was always like, this is so stupid! Even as a kid.

But I’ve also had dogs who had zero urges at all. They didn’t want to get out or anything.


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## selzer

Sunsilver said:


> Selzer, there are oops litters that happen through ignorance (OMG, I didn't KNOW she was in heat!! No one told me they could have babies so YOUNG!) Yeah, maybe DO YOUR HOMEWORK next time?? There are also 'oops' litters that DO happen to responsible breeders.
> 
> My 12 year old is the product of the latter sort of litter. Her mom managed to unlatch her kennel, then climbed an 8 foot tall chain link fence and got herself in with the stud. Her breeder told me he thought she was related to Harry Houdini. Her offspring, Star, has some of her mom's escape artist tendencies, too. She opens cupboard doors and gates, and learned how to open the latch on the screen door. I woke up one morning, and she was GONE! Fortunately, she did not get herself hit by a car during the night, and was waiting for me patiently outside the kennel gate when I got up!
> 
> It may be a good thing I had her spayed due to a mildly dysplastic hip at the age of 2, or I might have found myself the owner of an 'oops' litter, too!
> 
> Edited to add: The couple who bred Star were professional breeders and show people, with many titled dogs. The wife had a good cry when I put Star inside my vehicle to take her home!


Jenna, my best producing dam, was a Houdini. At four months old, PetSmart grooming couldn't keep her from getting loose. But as the owner of an intact bitch, she had 5 litters, 3 out of Gispo, and 2 out of Herko, neither of which were my dogs nor lived anywhere near me. The intact dogs I had living here were Dubya, Rushie, Oscar, Nder, Mufasa, and Kojak. Never once did she hook up with any of them, because some were related, and some I did not think were a good match for her, and then she got beyond the age I wanted to breed her, so I never tried with Mufasa or Kojak. Nder and Oscar were out of her or her daughter, Rushie was not a dog I wanted to mix with her, and Dubya was her father. 

If you are going to own intact bitches, you can certainly put a clip in the latch which effectively locks the latch so the bitch cannot just open it. You can top your run so the rangy-mangy border collie mix can't get into the run with your in-heat bitch. You can build that run on concrete so that she cannot dig out of it. You can fence around your kennels so if the first line of defense is breached, you have a second line. 

People LIE. They do. They will lie when the truth serves them better. But they will also lie when the it makes folks more likely to be lenient, and more likely to buy their puppies. Folks that HATE breeders are going to turn up their nose at people who intentionally bred their animals. But the same person who would turn up their nose at such a breeder, will put out money for a pup that was a "accidentally" conceived. They preach spay/neuter the whole time they are buying the puppy, but they buy it. And the whole time the lying breeder is promising to get the bitch fixed as soon as the pups go home. And in six months or twelve, the holier than thou breeder-hater hears that the breeder had another litter out of their bitch. 

Think about it. If you say "whoops!" you do not have to have titles on your dogs. You do not have to have your bitch reach two years. You do not need to explain why you do not have OFA certification. You do not need to ensure your pedigree is diverse enough -- you can mate father to daughter, brother to sister. No need to try to maintain the breed in your breeding decision if it is an accident. Accidental litters are just too convenient to be real. People aren't that stupid either. They may say, "oh, I didn't think he would mate with his daughter" but they will register those puppies and sell them. No, I don't buy any of the accidents. I have had up to 28 intact dogs on my place, and have had zero whoops. It's not rocket science. If you care, your bitch doesn't get knocked up by the wrong dog.

BTW, I would NEVER knowingly buy a dog from an accidental litter because I would believe that the first thing I know about the breeder is that he or she lies. And the next thing is that they are not willing to accept responsibility for what they do. Not the kind of person I want to have as the orchestrator of my next family companion. If a breeder cannot keep intact animals apart, then they need to retire their shingle, alter or rehome their breeding stock, and put an Elizabethan collar on their head and sit in the corner.


----------



## Sunsilver

Selzer, you can think what you want, but I believe the only lie this breeder told me was yes, this is a breeding he would have done, just not on this particular heat.

No one who's serious about selling pups crosses German show lines with American show lines. The bitch produced only 2 pups, and both were with the breeder past the usual 8 week rehoming date. I brought Star home at 12 weeks. Her brother wound up being sent to India, but due to red tape, was never able to clear customs, and was eventually sent back to the breeder. He finally found a home as a service dog for a young boy with disabilities.

Shortly after Star was born, her mom was sent back to her breeder, and after that, he only bred German show line dogs.

And I really don't see how even an experience breeder could predict a female would manage to let herself out of her kennel and climb an 8 foot fence. If they had bred her, they MIGHT have know she was an escape artist, but she came from another kennel.


----------



## germanshepowner

I’m sure there are breeders that lie about that and are BYB’s that will never spay the dog. But this family cried when they handed me the dog and they still keep in touch. They also have not bred the dog since and it’s been over a year.

I wouldn’t do it again because now I’ve been spoiled by a profoundly great dog after a lifetime of shelter dogs. But it sure worked out for me this time.


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## Sunsilver

Forgot to add, Dad was titled, Mom had been shown but not titled, and both dogs had good hips. They weren't doing elbow x-rays back then. Both dogs had 5 star pedigrees: the sire was the son of a German sieger, and the dam was the daughter of a very well known grand-victor.

The sire had only one other litter other than this one. With his bloodlines, if they'd truly just been in it for the money, they would have bred him to everything with a pedigree! But he threw oversized progeny, and his conformation wasn't that great. Also, the breeder was scaling back his kennel due to age.

The dam was never bred again, either.


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## Sabis mom

germanshepowner said:


> I’m sure there are breeders that lie about that and are BYB’s that will never spay the dog. But this family cried when they handed me the dog and they still keep in touch. They also have not bred the dog since and it’s been over a year.
> 
> I wouldn’t do it again because now I’ve been spoiled by a profoundly great dog after a lifetime of shelter dogs. But it sure worked out for me this time.


My Sabi came from nowhere. The humans that I took her from were slugs. Who threatens to shoot a 7 week old pup because they are sick of feeding her?
She was an incredible dog, and I was blessed to have her for nearly 13 years. I hit the jackpot, and I know it. I met most of her littermates and they had various and numerous issues. 
Sometimes we just get lucky. And smart gamblers know that when you hit the jackpot, you leave the table.
I lost Sabi to DM, never again. She fought a good fight but ultimately she lost the war and watching it changed me. I will not have another "maybe" dog. Ever. I do not have the strength to watch that twice. 
Shadow also came from nowhere, and while I would not trade her for the world I also would not wish this on anyone.
I sincerely hope that your dog lives a long and happy life, and I am thrilled that you are one of the lucky ones. Sometimes, many times, the genetics combine in a decent fashion without our control. But the results when they don't are devastating. Considering the sheer number of BYB dogs produced each year the percentage of real issue is small, and the good news is that for the most part these "breeders" have dogs with little to no aggression. Goldies in Shepherd coats, lol. The bad news is oversized, bad hips, spinal issues and weak nerves are dreadfully common. 

Treasures are hard to find.


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## germanshepowner

Sabis mom said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m sure there are breeders that lie about that and are BYB’s that will never spay the dog. But this family cried when they handed me the dog and they still keep in touch. They also have not bred the dog since and it’s been over a year.
> 
> I wouldn’t do it again because now I’ve been spoiled by a profoundly great dog after a lifetime of shelter dogs. But it sure worked out for me this time.
> 
> 
> 
> My Sabi came from nowhere. The humans that I took her from were slugs. Who threatens to shoot a 7 week old pup because they are sick of feeding her?
> She was an incredible dog, and I was blessed to have her for nearly 13 years. I hit the jackpot, and I know it. I met most of her littermates and they had various and numerous issues.
> Sometimes we just get lucky. And smart gamblers know that when you hit the jackpot, you leave the table.
> I lost Sabi to DM, never again. She fought a good fight but ultimately she lost the war and watching it changed me. I will not have another "maybe" dog. Ever. I do not have the strength to watch that twice.
> Shadow also came from nowhere, and while I would not trade her for the world I also would not wish this on anyone.
> I sincerely hope that your dog lives a long and happy life, and I am thrilled that you are one of the lucky ones. Sometimes, many times, the genetics combine in a decent fashion without our control. But the results when they don't are devastating. Considering the sheer number of BYB dogs produced each year the percentage of real issue is small, and the good news is that for the most part these "breeders" have dogs with little to no aggression. Goldies in Shepherd coats, lol. The bad news is oversized, bad hips, spinal issues and weak nerves are dreadfully common.
> 
> Treasures are hard to find.
Click to expand...

That is how I feel exactly. I know how profoundly lucky we got and I’m stepping far far away from the table. We’ve run extensive tests with our vet, dna tests and done x-rays and everything has been phenomenal. She tested as almost genetically perfect for over 150 potential issues. She is the carrier for ONE disease but she won’t get it and she won’t ever have a litter to pass it on. Her temperament is also fantastic. I couldn’t ask for better. I’ve seen the cat walk over and start eating out of her bowl while she was eating and the dog just kept eating calmly. I now have to separate the dog and cat during meals because who knew a cat would have such little sense! And she has incredible drive. She’ll lay around lazy in the house. Napping and chewing bones. Almost as if she was an old dog. And once we go outside to train or exercise, she comes to life and is eager to please and has a very high prey drive (kinda ugh... small dogs are our weakness!) 

I feel like I’ll have a really hard time finding my next dog now. ? Nothing can compare to her. 

That is absolutely sickening about Sabi. I feel ill hearing that. So glad she found you and you her and she could live such an amazing long life. 

I think I only even took the risk because I was so used to dealing with dogs with health issues from shelters. And I knew she was headed to the shelter. Unfortunately two of her sisters couldn’t find homes and I think they did go to the shelter ?


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## selzer

Sunsilver said:


> Selzer, you can think what you want, but I believe the only lie this breeder told me was yes, this is a breeding he would have done, just not on this particular heat.
> 
> No one who's serious about selling pups crosses German show lines with American show lines. The bitch produced only 2 pups, and both were with the breeder past the usual 8 week rehoming date. I brought Star home at 12 weeks. Her brother wound up being sent to India, but due to red tape, was never able to clear customs, and was eventually sent back to the breeder. He finally found a home as a service dog for a young boy with disabilities.
> 
> Shortly after Star was born, her mom was sent back to her breeder, and after that, he only bred German show line dogs.
> 
> And I really don't see how even an experience breeder could predict a female would manage to let herself out of her kennel and climb an 8 foot fence. If they had bred her, they MIGHT have know she was an escape artist, but she came from another kennel.



Actually, it used to be quite common for American GSD breeders to breed to a German Showline dog. My Arwen was 5/16 (I think) German and the rest American Showlines. I bred her to a GSL dog, and the progeny that I chose to breed to GSL dogs. I have a good thing going. I don't want to add any more American in there, not at this point. Arwen was Kaiah's great, great, grand-dam. If you study your lines and think the best way to get a certain trait in there is to go with a German, than that is what you do. You then breed back the best prospects of showing that trait, into your lines. Nothing new in that. 

The thing is, everyone believes that people can't keep animals intact and it just isn't so. People think if you turn your head for a moment, shazam!!! their tied. Not so. Yes bitches can be just as eager to get to a dog as a dog is to get to them, but it isn't hard to practice responsible containment. If you cannot keep a bitch in heat away from the dog, you can't keep her from becoming road pizza either. And trust me, that the bitch's choice for a mate would probably not be registratable. Usually, given her druthers, she would pick the rangy mangy border collie mix from down the road. If a breeder can't contain his dogs properly, than she would be have mixed litters. It's all baloney. Only it is dangerous baloney, because there are places in America where they have mandatory spay and neuter. Mandatory because of all these idiots LYING about having an oops litter. Should I be the only person in the state that is ALLOWED to have intact animals because I can keep them apart, and breed only the critters I want bred? And nobody else can???


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## Jenny720

Their are many reputable breeders that mix lines looking for new blood.
I heard Rumor was bred with a wgsl. I wonder how those pups are. My female is intact and never once tried to leave the yard or escape and supervised. I have taken her taken her out also. She has had one gentlemen caller and a gsd a wgsl I thought that was cute him standing out side my fence. Waiting patiently as if the fence were to open. He was neutered to.


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## Sunsilver

Jenny, I didn't know that about Rumor. That's quite a surprise! 

Selzer, I fully understand and share your frustration. Just this week, someone advertised on our community message board, hoping to find a bitch to breed their mastiff mix to before they have him neutered! 

As for crossing the different bloodlines, back when I bought Star, it was because I was hoping the GSD could maybe still become one breed again, and here was a puppy which had some of the best of both ASL and GSL blood, plus a nice, non-roached topline, super bone and a nice temperament.

I soon realized there was no way she would make it in either the German or the American show ring. The differences were just too great. Plus, anyone whose dogs were doing well in the ASL ring had a pro handler to show them, which meant spending big bucks on showing. 

I still had some hope of getting some puppies from her that could be shown, but the results of her OFA exam squashed that dream, too. :frown2:

Edit: here is the dog Rumor was bred to, an ASL/GSL cross. So, sometimes it can work. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...468254-marquis-can-you-stop-the-rain-v-kenlyn


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## Jenny720

Sunsilver said:


> Jenny, I didn't know that about Rumor. That's quite a surprise!
> 
> Selzer, I fully understand and share your frustration. Just this week, someone advertised on our community message board, hoping to find a bitch to breed their mastiff mix to before they have him neutered! /forum/images/smilies/mad.gif
> 
> As for crossing the different bloodlines, back when I bought Star, it was because I was hoping the GSD could maybe still become one breed again, and here was a puppy which had some of the best of both ASL and GSL blood, plus a nice, non-roached topline, super bone and a nice temperament.
> 
> I soon realized there was no way she would make it in either the German or the American show ring. The differences were just too great. Plus, anyone whose dogs were doing well in the ASL ring had a pro handler to show them, which meant spending big bucks on showing.
> 
> I still had some hope of getting some puppies from her that could be shown, but the results of her OFA exam squashed that dream, too. /forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_sad.png
> 
> Edit: here is the dog Rumor was bred to, an ASL/GSL cross. So, sometimes it can work. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...468254-marquis-can-you-stop-the-rain-v-kenlyn


The breeder has a few dogs with mixed lines- from Mailo a wgsl. Mailo is my females sire. My females breeder has asl and wgsl and has on occasion has mixed the lines and produced really nice dogs. Megabucks has wgsl farther down in his lines. It is not that uncommon then one would think. I have seen nice wgsl and working lines. There was a poster here that had working lines and als. It has to be done right and I know very reputable breeders who do this. I would think they are able see what the need or have or want to bring in. Sometimes it works really well and others maybe not like all breedings.


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## Jchrest

I scoff at the term “accidental litter.” In all my years of owning intact dogs, I’ve never once had an accidental litter. Or a planned one for that matter. Before Lyka’s spay, we had both Lyka and Crios intact. Never an issue. Floki, who is not intact, still tries to hump both Lyka and Seiran. Lyka puts him right in his place, and I do for Seiran. 

Crios’s breeder, and I use that term very very loosely, has used the “accidental litter” every heat cycle with her GSD. She has friends or family members post the litters on Facebook so no one knows it the same female, and still pumping out litter after litter of GSD/Husky mixes. 

Accidental litters = BYB or I WAS TOO LAZY TO WATCH AND/OR KEEP THEM SEPARATED. The large majority being the first. 

People are going to believe what they want to hear when it comes to purchasing a puppy. And just because the breeder cries when handing over a pup DOES NOT mean it was accidental, it means the breeder is putting on a show for you. 

I’m with @selzer on this one.


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## Jenny720

Yes and works real well!


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## Sabis mom

Many years ago I had a bunch of dogs. One of my girls was in heat. I left for work and being diligent I secured both females inside the dog run which was double fence, with a roof and a latched door with a clip on it. I left the unneutered male in my securely fenced yard with my Dane for company. I left all the dogs water and all had shelter, shade and water. 
At some point AC showed up and saw the two dogs loose in the yard. He figured they had somehow escaped so unlatched the dog run and put them inside. And the only response I got from AC was that the water bucket was empty when he arrived so he needed to put them in the run for access to water.
I believe oops litters happen. I just don't believe they happen at the rather alarming rate that irresponsible owners would have people believe.


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## Sunsilver

Wow, I hope AC got an earfull from you!!:angryfire:

I have seen nice ASL/GSL crosses, and I've also seen ones that inherited the worst features of both lines. Mailo obviously favours the American side of his pedigree, which is why he's done well in the ASL show ring. He'd never make it in the German ring, though.


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## Jenny720

Huh? Mailo is all wgsl and from Germany. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...d=722617-mailo-vom-kuckucksland#user-comments

I’m sure I would imagine stucture vaire a bit in a litter like that as it does normally.


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## germanshepowner

Sabis mom said:


> Many years ago I had a bunch of dogs. One of my girls was in heat. I left for work and being diligent I secured both females inside the dog run which was double fence, with a roof and a latched door with a clip on it. I left the unneutered male in my securely fenced yard with my Dane for company. I left all the dogs water and all had shelter, shade and water.
> At some point AC showed up and saw the two dogs loose in the yard. He figured they had somehow escaped so unlatched the dog run and put them inside. And the only response I got from AC was that the water bucket was empty when he arrived so he needed to put them in the run for access to water.
> I believe oops litters happen. I just don't believe they happen at the rather alarming rate that irresponsible owners would have people believe.


Thank you for this post. This is exactly why I believe in SOME accidental litters. Yes frankly, most of them are lies. But I’ve also known people who have been in similar situations to that. 

I also know without a doubt that the family I got my dog from wasn’t a breeder. We’ve now become friends with them and have mutual friends through them and they have not bred the dogs again. I think it was so hard on them and upsetting to try to find good homes that it actually fueled them to become really great dog owners.


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## Nigel

Jenny720 said:


> The breeder has a few dogs with mixed lines- from Mailo a wgsl. Mailo is my females sire. My females breeder has asl and wgsl and has on occasion has mixed the lines and produced really nice dogs. Megabucks has wgsl farther down in his lines. It is not that uncommon then one would think. I have seen nice wgsl and working lines. *There was a poster here that had working lines and als*. It has to be done right and I know very reputable breeders who do this. I would think they are able see what the need or have or want to bring in. Sometimes it works really well and others maybe not like all breedings.


My girls (litter mates) are ASL (pet lines) x wgwl. They were purposely bred, not for some planned outcome just that the dams owner wanted a pup from her and the sire was available. If you listen to what some folks say about this type of breeding my girls should be nutters, but that’s not been case.


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## Sabis mom

germanshepowner said:


> Thank you for this post. This is exactly why I believe in SOME accidental litters. Yes frankly, most of them are lies. But I’ve also known people who have been in similar situations to that.
> 
> I also know without a doubt that the family I got my dog from wasn’t a breeder. We’ve now become friends with them and have mutual friends through them and they have not bred the dogs again. I think it was so hard on them and upsetting to try to find good homes that it actually fueled them to become really great dog owners.


Except that I opted for a spay abort and choked on the massive vet bill. I learned. I trust no one and nothing with my dogs well being. No fence, latch, lock, door or expert is as safe for my dogs as my own eyes and my love for them. 
I believe that we all make mistakes. I believe that it's the only way we can learn. It isn't about making mistakes, it's what we learn from them, what we take away. Sadly a good many dog owners learn that puppies=$$, so even if the first litter was a legit accident they learn the wrong lesson. I hope that the folks your girl came from remain sincere in their plan for no more litters.


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## germanshepowner

Sabis mom said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for this post. This is exactly why I believe in SOME accidental litters. Yes frankly, most of them are lies. But I’ve also known people who have been in similar situations to that.
> 
> I also know without a doubt that the family I got my dog from wasn’t a breeder. We’ve now become friends with them and have mutual friends through them and they have not bred the dogs again. I think it was so hard on them and upsetting to try to find good homes that it actually fueled them to become really great dog owners.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that I opted for a spay abort and choked on the massive vet bill. I learned. I trust no one and nothing with my dogs well being. No fence, latch, lock, door or expert is as safe for my dogs as my own eyes and my love for them.
> I believe that we all make mistakes. I believe that it's the only way we can learn. It isn't about making mistakes, it's what we learn from them, what we take away. Sadly a good many dog owners learn that puppies=$$, so even if the first litter was a legit accident they learn the wrong lesson. I hope that the folks your girl came from remain sincere in their plan for no more litters.
Click to expand...

I trusted family with my puppy and she got her face bit at an early age by a relatives small dog. My blood literally B.O.I.L.S. when I think about it. Luckily it never affected her. It scarred me for life however and made me an overprotective psychopath. 

So I absolutely agree with you. Sometimes we do have to learn a lesson the hard way but we sure do learn it! I really hope they stick to no more litters as well.


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## selzer

germanshepowner said:


> Thank you for this post. This is exactly why I believe in SOME accidental litters. Yes frankly, most of them are lies. But I’ve also known people who have been in similar situations to that.
> 
> I also know without a doubt that the family I got my dog from wasn’t a breeder. We’ve now become friends with them and have mutual friends through them and they have not bred the dogs again. I think it was so hard on them and upsetting to try to find good homes that it actually fueled them to become really great dog owners.


I am sorry, but if you produce 1 puppy, 1, you are a breeder. End of story. 

That you decided it was a lot of work, and a lot of heartache, and you do not want to do that again, does not make the fact that you were a breeder untrue. If you own the bitch when it was mated, you were the breeder. If you own the stud, then you are also a breeder. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A BREEDER. 

I love Jchrest's remark about the person crying when they hand over the pup -- that doesn't mean the person didn't want to make puppies. It may mean that they are sorry to see this one go. It may mean that they are putting on a show for you. They did not send you the clip they made of the celebration of the two-week point where if you brought the dog back you wouldn't get your money back -- probably puts professional football receiver's end zone dance to shame. JK. (No, I do not celebrate D+14 day.) 

Really though, when you folks justify getting your pups from a breeder, because they are not really a breeder, it is really, really offensive to breeders. I mean forget it that they do not have to wait until the bitch os of age, and they can use a dog for conveiience only, and that they don't need to jump through any of the hoops to try to make the puppy as healthy or have proper temperament and all that. They can make tons of mistakes when it comes to socializing, don't need to worry about what they are feeding, don't have to have them in suitable space or cleanliness or anything. You buy from them because the puppy is was a "mistake." And then the person really isn't as bad as all that, because they are not actually "a breeder." Like being a breeder is much worse, the scum of the earth. Unbelievable.


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## selzer

Sabis mom, ok, in your neighborhood, where the AC will walk into a yard with full grown GSDs and put them in with a couple more full grown GSDs, maybe you should put a padlock on that hooded kennel, then that wouldn't have happened that day. But really that is so unlikely. Not everyone would spay-abort in that situation. But 1 out of 500,000 accidental litters, is indeed not what the bitch owner wanted, doesn't prove the point. 

If MY dog warden put my dog in with another dog, they would be getting an earful because it is VERY possible that the intact bitches they may put together will do serious damage to each other.


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## germanshepowner

selzer said:


> Sabis mom, ok, in your neighborhood, where the AC will walk into a yard with full grown GSDs and put them in with a couple more full grown GSDs, maybe you should put a padlock on that hooded kennel, then that wouldn't have happened that day. But really that is so unlikely. Not everyone would spay-abort in that situation. But 1 out of 500,000 accidental litters, is indeed not what the bitch owner wanted, doesn't prove the point.
> 
> If MY dog warden put my dog in with another dog, they would be getting an earful because it is VERY possible that the intact bitches they may put together will do serious damage to each other.


Ok so you can admit accidental litters do exist...


----------



## germanshepowner

selzer said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for this post. This is exactly why I believe in SOME accidental litters. Yes frankly, most of them are lies. But I’ve also known people who have been in similar situations to that.
> 
> I also know without a doubt that the family I got my dog from wasn’t a breeder. We’ve now become friends with them and have mutual friends through them and they have not bred the dogs again. I think it was so hard on them and upsetting to try to find good homes that it actually fueled them to become really great dog owners.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, but if you produce 1 puppy, 1, you are a breeder. End of story.
> 
> That you decided it was a lot of work, and a lot of heartache, and you do not want to do that again, does not make the fact that you were a breeder untrue. If you own the bitch when it was mated, you were the breeder. If you own the stud, then you are also a breeder. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A BREEDER.
> 
> I love Jchrest's remark about the person crying when they hand over the pup -- that doesn't mean the person didn't want to make puppies. It may mean that they are sorry to see this one go. It may mean that they are putting on a show for you. They did not send you the clip they made of the celebration of the two-week point where if you brought the dog back you wouldn't get your money back -- probably puts professional football receiver's end zone dance to shame. JK. (No, I do not celebrate D+14 day.)
> 
> Really though, when you folks justify getting your pups from a breeder, because they are not really a breeder, it is really, really offensive to breeders. I mean forget it that they do not have to wait until the bitch os of age, and they can use a dog for conveiience only, and that they don't need to jump through any of the hoops to try to make the puppy as healthy or have proper temperament and all that. They can make tons of mistakes when it comes to socializing, don't need to worry about what they are feeding, don't have to have them in suitable space or cleanliness or anything. You buy from them because the puppy is was a "mistake." And then the person really isn't as bad as all that, because they are not actually "a breeder." Like being a breeder is much worse, the scum of the earth. Unbelievable.
Click to expand...

I mean frankly to a lot of the world, breeders are the scum of the earth.. I sure wouldn’t want to be one with the stigma attached. Most of my friends who got dogs from expensive breeders are so ashamed they don’t even want to discuss it. I’m ashamed that I won’t adopt in the future since I’ve always done that. 

But like I’ve said repeatedly, I know how lucky I got and I will get future GSD’s from a breeder.


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## Steve Strom

germanshepowner said:


> I mean frankly to a lot of the world, breeders are the scum of the earth.. I sure wouldn’t want to be one with the stigma attached. Most of my friends who got dogs from expensive breeders are so ashamed they don’t even want to discuss it. I’m ashamed that I won’t adopt in the future since I’ve always done that.
> 
> But like I’ve said repeatedly, I know how lucky I got and I will get future GSD’s from a breeder.


There's no stigma. Ashamed? Get over it. Enjoy the dog you want and tell people to mind their own frigging business.


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## germanshepowner

Steve Strom said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean frankly to a lot of the world, breeders are the scum of the earth.. I sure wouldn’t want to be one with the stigma attached. Most of my friends who got dogs from expensive breeders are so ashamed they don’t even want to discuss it. I’m ashamed that I won’t adopt in the future since I’ve always done that.
> 
> But like I’ve said repeatedly, I know how lucky I got and I will get future GSD’s from a breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no stigma. Ashamed? Get over it. Enjoy the dog you want and tell people to mind their own frigging business.
Click to expand...

Where I live, there’s 1000% a stigma. Without a doubt. Even my parents after I told them my plans to get my next dog from a breeder were horrified. People tell you confidentially here if they got a dog from a breeder.


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## Steve Strom

A stigma implies there's something wrong, these are just peoples opinions and there's no reason to let them matter.


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## germanshepowner

Steve Strom said:


> A stigma implies there's something wrong, these are just peoples opinions and there's no reason to let them matter.


A stigma is something that takes away from someone’s character or reputation. In my area, people think something is wrong with you if you ever purchase a dog. I’ve quite literally had people test the waters about telling me where they got their dog. 

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll be getting my next GSD from a breeder. But it is something horrifying in my city.


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## Jchrest

Breeder shaming bothers you? There are stigma’s attached to any non BB where I live. I don’t own a single one. People seem perplexed when they find out I have GSD type dogs. Why would I want a GSD when I could have a BB? Um, because that was my personal choice and none of your dang business. I’ve never been ashamed, or fallen victim to breeder shaming. And if at any point someone tried, good luck to them, because they are going to get a very long lecture about ethical breeders vs BYB’s they got their dog from. One of the few things I value in this world is ethical breeders. They health test their dogs, they put in so much time and effort planning each litter, who will breed to whom, what the outcome may be, and if there is a pup in that litter than has unwanted or undesirable traits, they either keep the dogs, or sell it for considerably less as a pet companion dog to someone who understands, and they don’t breed that pair again. They rarely, if ever, make a profit on the litter, and spend time with the litter to find out what has been produced and what temperament and drive is right for each owner. And that isn’t even the hard part. The hard part is all the people slamming them for breeding period. Or the people that blame every little thing that may be wrong with their dog on the breeder, even though they never spent more than a handful of days putting any work into the dog beyond potty training. The new owners will take their new pup straight to Petco, Petsmart, whatever store they choose for buying all the “fun” puppy stuff, regardless of the fact that they were told not to bring them to public places until x amount of vaccinations. Then when the puppy has been walking around the pet store picking up all kinds of yuck, and the puppy gets sick, it’s the breeders fault. Not the owner for not following proper protocol, nope, it’s the breeders fault. Breeders have to fight for their to maintain their good name when people want to lay blame at the breeders fault, instead of owning up to their own mistakes. 

I can tell you from personal experience, having a litter is HARD. And I didn’t get them until they were 4 weeks old. That’s a whole month I didn’t have to worry about the health of the bitch, or the health of the puppies. I didn’t have to stay up all night on labor watch, and then stay up another night while the bitch was in active labor and chart each puppy as they arrive. I didn’t have to worry about xrays or extra vet visits to make sure the bitch was in good health, and to see about how many pups she would be dropping. And I certainly didn’t have to worry if this would be a successful litter. Still the hardest thing I’ve ever done, and I will tell you right now, I applaud those breeders who do it ethically, who put the work in, because you have to be hardcore dedicated to the breed to produce a healthy litter. 

People give me crap because I have ONE breeder dog out of countless rescues spanning over 20 years. I shut them down real quick when I explain how their dog came to be. You didn’t rescue a pup from a BYB, you lined their pockets and encouraged them to keep on breeding. Yes, the litter is here regardless, but the next one is here because you perpetuated the BYB’s choice to breed crap genetics into a cash cow by buying from a BYB to “rescue” the pup. You bought a dog from a BYB, and saying otherwise is insulting to real breeders and rescue people. 

This is a hot button for me. This is a topic that makes my blood boil, as I’m one of the ones that has dedicated their lives to saving these crap BYB dogs from euthanasia when they are dumped with behavior and health problems. I’m the one that hears REAL breeder bashing and take my time correcting their skewed views on breeders. Don’t shop, adopt, has become such a slogan that somehow this is the only way to get a dog without being bashed. Where do you think those dogs CAME FROM. 

I could write a book on this topic and still have more to say. But my main point is, why do you care if you’re shamed for purchasing from a breeder rather than a shelter or rescue?! You shouldn’t have to defend yourself for doing the right thing. If more people purchased from ethical breeders, there wouldn’t be so many dogs sitting in a kennel at the shelter waiting to be euthanized for overcrowding. 

Okay, off my soap box now.


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> Sabis mom, ok, in your neighborhood, where the AC will walk into a yard with full grown GSDs and put them in with a couple more full grown GSDs, maybe you should put a padlock on that hooded kennel, then that wouldn't have happened that day. But really that is so unlikely. Not everyone would spay-abort in that situation. But 1 out of 500,000 accidental litters, is indeed not what the bitch owner wanted, doesn't prove the point.
> 
> If MY dog warden put my dog in with another dog, they would be getting an earful because it is VERY possible that the intact bitches they may put together will do serious damage to each other.


Well they weren't GSD's, one was a Dane and the others were SCWT's. I was 23, and did my level best to prevent it. Never occurred to me that AC would be stopping by to mess with my life. 
Seriously, my point was crap happens. Oops litters do occur. I don't buy that they happen as often as is represented but they do happen. 
At that particular time I had the money to deal with it. I was still showing and training horses and modeling, plus the exec protection work. I still was not pleased about shelling out a wad of cash. It was expensive. I can easily see how someone would opt for the litter. At 23 it cut seriously into my party fund. 

But really? Should have put a padlock on it? Come on now. I know dog owners now that would not secure their dogs in a dog run within a dog run enclosed in a fenced yard.


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## selzer

germanshepowner said:


> I mean frankly to a lot of the world, breeders are the scum of the earth.. I sure wouldn’t want to be one with the stigma attached. Most of my friends who got dogs from expensive breeders are so ashamed they don’t even want to discuss it. I’m ashamed that I won’t adopt in the future since I’ve always done that.
> 
> But like I’ve said repeatedly, I know how lucky I got and I will get future GSD’s from a breeder.


You can choose how you want to deal with folks around them. You can tell them to mind their own business, or just not make any reply. You can use it as an opportunity to educate, but if you do, then be careful to whom you speak and how often, because you can burn out fast. 

Breeders are the reason we have the magnificent creature this site is dedicated to. There would be indigenous sheep herding dogs from Germany. But as divers as the German Shepherd is, these dogs would be far more divers, you would not know what a pup from a bitch would be in temperament, ability, trainability, structure, size, color. You would probably have a good idea that it would be able to work sheep. Maybe. In fact modern sheep management might have made indigenous German sheepherding dogs no longer relevant and marked for extinction. 

That is how many breeds are formed. Think of old yeller, He was not a yellow Labrador. He was a cur dog, that was used for baiting bear and working pigs. Not domestic Wilbers, but a hog dog, pigs with tusks that run feral in the woods eating nuts and such, protecting themselves from wolves an mountain lions and bears, until they are rounded up and butchered. Formidable animals. When folks no longer need to work their pigs, round them up and notch their ears to show ownership, those dogs would no longer be necessary and would become extinct unless a group of folks see the potential in such dogs and band together to save the dogs, by creating a breed, a standard, and a stud book for them, and carefully allowing some crosses, and then closing that, and being vigilent as to what is bred and what is not bred. These are breeders. These are breed-guardians. 

Breeders are breed guardians. Folk that spend all their time and money making decisions about their dogs, who should be bred, who should not, to whom they should be bred, what traits should be built upon, what washed out. 

Breeders compete to match their dogs against others, and to show case their dogs, but to also learn what is trending, what worked, what did not work, who might be a good dog to put into their lines. And so forth. 

Breeders listen from folks what they want and what they need in their dogs. 

Breeders listen to folks about behavior and training and learn to help others by their experience and by the experiences of others.

Breeders listen to health concerns and can get it right over veterinarians and prevent dogs from being chopped on unnecessarily and to their detriment (been there, done that). 

There is so much, but if my computer crashes again.... Breeders are the reason you have the treasure you have, even if it came from someone who says they did not intend to breed. She got her dogs from somewhere, from breeders. And all the folks who get their dogs from pounds and shelters, well, they got their dogs from breeders too. 

Breeder is not positive or negative, like teacher or construction worker or farmer. We should not have to put "respectable" or "reputable" before the term to make it positive.


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## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> Well they weren't GSD's, one was a Dane and the others were SCWT's. I was 23, and did my level best to prevent it. Never occurred to me that AC would be stopping by to mess with my life.
> Seriously, my point was crap happens. Oops litters do occur. I don't buy that they happen as often as is represented but they do happen.
> At that particular time I had the money to deal with it. I was still showing and training horses and modeling, plus the exec protection work. I still was not pleased about shelling out a wad of cash. It was expensive. I can easily see how someone would opt for the litter. At 23 it cut seriously into my party fund.
> 
> But really? Should have put a padlock on it? Come on now. I know dog owners now that would not secure their dogs in a dog run within a dog run enclosed in a fenced yard.


Then the litter would not have been purebred GSDs. See, when people are "only selling them for $400" because it was an oops, that just happens to be registratable and purebred, I don't buy it. Crap happened in your case, but it would have produced a purebred litter, unless the SCWTs were the ones breeding. Crap happens, and as longs as we buy that, then we deserve to have the government demand that we spay and neuter evertything on four feet. No, you should not have had to padlock and most places AC would have never done that, but usually we find out stuff like that before the raccoon is in the hen house.


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> Then the litter would not have been purebred GSDs. See, when people are "only selling them for $400" because it was an oops, that just happens to be registratable and purebred, I don't buy it. Crap happened in your case, but it would have produced a purebred litter, unless the SCWTs were the ones breeding. Crap happens, and as longs as we buy that, then we deserve to have the government demand that we spay and neuter evertything on four feet. No, you should not have had to padlock and most places AC would have never done that, but usually we find out stuff like that before the raccoon is in the hen house.


Actually it would have produced a purebred, registerable litter and one with nice lines. Stud was AKC/CKC registered, and had a proven record of producing champions, bitch was CKC, titled and had been breed a few times. I did not want a litter. 
And I am still not sure what you are implying I could have done differently. Crap did happen. Buy it or don't.


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## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> Actually it would have produced a purebred, registerable litter and one with nice lines. Stud was AKC/CKC registered, and had a proven record of producing champions, bitch was CKC, titled and had been breed a few times. I did not want a litter.
> And I am still not sure what you are implying I could have done differently. Crap did happen. Buy it or don't.


You had your bitches in an enclosure that should have kept them safe. No way to know AC would do that. 

But that is such an outlier. 

It's the attitude that crap happens that bothers me so much. Because "crap happens" people don't take responsibility, and the people think that the government should make laws that effect everyone of us because we can't keep "crap" from happening. Like people who get pissed off at drivers who run over their dogs. I say, "what is the dog doing in the street." Well it got loose, crap happens. Takes responsibility from the owner and shifts it to the driver, or the farmer, or the hunter. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that no one could foresee, but they wouldn't happen again next year. Like they do with these multiple oopse litter folks. You did not even have an oops, because you spay-aborted. But had you, it still wouldn't change the fact that the vast majority of oops litters should have been prevented, and would have been prevented if the owners did not want puppies.


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