# How do I choose lines?



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

As a prospective breeder, how do you go about choosing the lines you want to breed? I'll admit I've done little research on lines, which is why I'm posting this. I'd like recommendations on reading (internet, please) or opinions/explainations on lines and why you chose them. To help narrow it down, I would like to breed working lines, just not sure how to determine or decide which ones. 

Any help is appreciated, thanks.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I would think that it would have to do with what YOU as a breeder want out of the dogs.

What particular characteristics are you looking for? Temperament? Structure? Etc.? What is the goal of your future breeding practice? What do you want your dogs to be able to do? What do you think the GSD needs to be successful?

I don't breed and have no intentions too, but I think knowing what you want out of the dogs will determine the lines you breed... a more knowledgable breeder can correct me if I am wrong though. I am going about this as a purchaser's way of thinking.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

4GSD - Famous Working Dogs

Here you have some examples of the most famous working line dogs that are the foundation of todays line. 

Me personal... I can literally pray them down while I am asleep just from listening to my parents over the years. However, it's all about studying pedigrees and growing into it. 

Who was on the Bundessieger Pruefung, which dog has the most succesfull litters and progrencie, who went to the World Championships, German Championships, who is absolutely underestimated because sometimes you've got cases where people underestimate a dog. They talk him down, the dog doesn't make many litters but once he's dead they realize that he produced some pretty **** successfull dogs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You get out and you train and work dogs. You spend time around dogs, watch dogs work, watch them in training. You go to trials, not just the big trials, but also the club trials. Go to a few shows (conformation showing is actually rather fun). Even go to an AKC event and watch the dogs in conformation, obedience and agility. Then you talk to people, you read a lot (especially the old books, not just opinions on the internet) and you spend even more time around dogs. Then, once you have decided on what you want to do with your dogs, get a nice puppy or young dog and train it, work it and title it. You must learn about the breed, understand the breed and while doing so you will also start learning about the lines. 

Like Mrs K I have always had working lines. They picked me because of what I wanted to do with my dogs. I stay with them because this is what a GSD is supposed to be.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> You get out and you train and work dogs. You spend time around dogs, watch dogs work, watch them in training. You go to trials, not just the big trials, but also the club trials. Go to a few shows (conformation showing is actually rather fun). Even go to an AKC event and watch the dogs in conformation, obedience and agility. Then you talk to people, you read a lot (especially the old books, not just opinions on the internet) and you spend even more time around dogs. Then, once you have decided on what you want to do with your dogs, get a nice puppy or young dog and train it, work it and title it. You must learn about the breed, understand the breed and while doing so you will also start learning about the lines.
> 
> Like Mrs K I have always had working lines. They picked me because of what I wanted to do with my dogs. I stay with them because this is what a GSD is supposed to be.


This!

You need a foundation and you can also buy so called "Zuchtbuecher" and study pedigrees. That is what my dad used to do. He was sitting over Zuchtbuecher and studied pedigrees day in and day out and than he watched the dogs, the news in the SV papers and went to all those big Championships himself to either watch or compete.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lhczth said:


> You get out and you train and work dogs. You spend time around dogs, watch dogs work, watch them in training. You go to trials, not just the big trials, but also the club trials. Go to a few shows (conformation showing is actually rather fun). Even go to an AKC event and watch the dogs in conformation, obedience and agility. Then you talk to people, you read a lot (especially the old books, not just opinions on the internet) and you spend even more time around dogs. Then, once you have decided on what you want to do with your dogs, get a nice puppy or young dog and train it, work it and title it. You must learn about the breed, understand the breed and while doing so you will also start learning about the lines.
> 
> Like Mrs K I have always had working lines. They picked me because of what I wanted to do with my dogs. I stay with them because this is what a GSD is supposed to be.


I've been researching a lot of clubs in the area so that I can do this. Unfortunately there aren't a lot, but I'm working on it. I know I want working lines as well, I just don't know how to decide or determine the difference between west german and east german working lines.


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## HMV (May 17, 2010)

The quickest way to tell the difference is by the titles on the sheet. This is the sire of my pup he is Czech. V Gass Naspo pedigree information - German shepherd dog as you can see titles like ZVV and IPO refer to Eastern trials.
This is the Dam of my pup she is from the BRD (west) the titles here are all West German and are the same as you would expect to see on the sheets of dogs that have undergone schutzhund training in America.
V (LG) Diva vom Abendstern pedigree information - German shepherd dog


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Ooh, gotcha. Thank you! 

Soo, apparently there's nothing wrong/bad with breeding two different working lines?

Are there big differences in temperments or what they were actually bred to do, as far as the two go?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Are you going to be crossing Working Lines with Showlines?

I think if you are planning on breeding 2 different lines you need to do more research, because you never know what will be the result.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IPO is just the international (FCI) version of SchH. It has nothing to do with differences in the lines. 

You learn the differences by doing what I said above. You need to get around dogs, see dogs work and do a lot of reading and research. It is not as simple as just looking at titles, or names on papers, or even country of origin. There are Czech dogs that are German show lines and Czech that have German working lines, or DDR lines, etc.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Are you going to be crossing Working Lines with Showlines?
> 
> I think if you are planning on breeding 2 different lines you need to do more research, because you never know what will be the result.


no no no. I'm not planning on being involved with show lines at all. I was confused as to whether or not you could cross western working lines with eastern, because it seems as if that's what HMV's pup is the result of, and what the outcome was. 



lhczth said:


> IPO is just the international (FCI) version of SchH. It has nothing to do with differences in the lines.
> 
> You learn the differences by doing what I said above. You need to get around dogs, see dogs work and do a lot of reading and research. It is not as simple as just looking at titles, or names on papers, or even country of origin. There are Czech dogs that are German show lines and Czech that have German working lines, or DDR lines, etc.


Oh, I know it's not going to be that simple, I'm just trying to get as much of an understanding as possible so I don't sound retarded when I ask a dumb question of someone and their dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Since I am stuck on the German Showline dogs, I can offer little help. 

I think that you need to get out to where the working line dogs are, schutzhund clubs and trials, SAR, wherever the dogs are trained and trialed I think. 

I mean, I hear over and over again by every BYB that the sire is a working police dog. Man, those police dogs stay busy. But that really does nothing to get the breeder known by the people who will not only buy their dogs but work with their dogs. 

So when you are out there at trials and helping and doing stuff where the working dogs are, when you see a dog that draws you eye, take notes, find out about the dog's lines and his pedigree, go home and write a paragraph about everything you liked, and if you can what you disliked about the dog, and everything you found out about the dog. 

Do this many times, until you have a little pool of dogs that you mostly like. Then you can determine which lines you prefer. 

There is always the possibility that for example, DDR dogs in your location have an overage of one quality or another because of breeders in your area breeding for that quality, so you might want to reach out farther abroad and see if that quality is univeral to the lines or if you could get dogs from the lines from farther off without it -- guessing that it is a quality that is not what you are looking for, or the opposite, if you leave your area, that line of dog may not be exactly the same. 

But here is where getting known in clubs and trials, etc, will help. When you talk dogs with these people, someone will say, that they got a dog out of __________ and that dog was a lot different, etc. 

I think your best bet is to get out there and make friends in the working dog areas. These friends may be a real help to you down the line.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions Selzer. I always look forward to your opinions. 

I can't wait to start attending some trials. 

The only ones I've found so far are in Marshall, MI, quite a ways from me, but I'll make it work somehow.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

DJEtzel,

South Michigan Schutzhund and Police Club has a trial this coming Saturday. We wil be starting at 7 AM with tracking. We have 4 SchH3, 3 SchH1, 2 AWD1, 2 BH, 1 TR3, 1 TR2, and 1 OB1. This would give you a good feel for a variety of dogs from WG working lines, Czech/DDR dogs and some crosses of lines.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Is there anything happening the weekend of June 11th? I am going to my parents house for vacation (Windsor) and would love to come out and watch a trial! I am also going to call the Windsor SchH club and see if I can come for a visit and watch some dogs train.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

That sounds so great. If I live anywhere near there, I would definitely go check it out.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lhczth said:


> DJEtzel,
> 
> South Michigan Schutzhund and Police Club has a trial this coming Saturday. We wil be starting at 7 AM with tracking. We have 4 SchH3, 3 SchH1, 2 AWD1, 2 BH, 1 TR3, 1 TR2, and 1 OB1. This would give you a good feel for a variety of dogs from WG working lines, Czech/DDR dogs and some crosses of lines.


Guh, I wish I could come, but I'm running an adoption even for the shelter I work at.  

How often does this club have trials?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

This...


lhczth said:


> You get out and you train and work dogs. You spend time around dogs, watch dogs work, watch them in training. You go to trials, not just the big trials, but also the club trials. Go to a few shows (conformation showing is actually rather fun). Even go to an AKC event and watch the dogs in conformation, obedience and agility. Then you talk to people, you read a lot (especially the old books, not just opinions on the internet) and you spend even more time around dogs. Then, once you have decided on what you want to do with your dogs, get a nice puppy or young dog and train it, work it and title it. You must learn about the breed, understand the breed and while doing so you will also start learning about the lines.


And this...


selzer said:


> So when you are out there at trials and helping and doing stuff where the working dogs are, when you see a dog that draws you eye, take notes, find out about the dog's lines and his pedigree, go home and write a paragraph about everything you liked, and if you can what you disliked about the dog, and everything you found out about the dog.
> 
> Do this many times, until you have a little pool of dogs that you mostly like. Then you can determine which lines you prefer.


The only way to truly get an appreciation of the different lines and what they bring to the table is to get out around dogs. Lots and lots of dogs. Get a dog and work it and get out to watch other dogs working and training. 

Between the two, over time, you will develop a much better idea of what you yourself do and do not like, and how your likes and dislikes compare to what the breed is supposed to be. And over time this will evolve, and some things will probably change. With more actual experience you will probably find yourself changing your mind with regard to some things you may have originally thought you liked/disliked.

When you see a dog you like, take note of what you like about him, and inquire into his pedigree. Same when you see a dog you dislike. Over time you will start to see trends in those pedigrees, with certain lines being common behind the dogs you like or dislike, and associated with specific traits you like/dislike. This will help give you a better idea of what lines you may want to work with, what ones to avoid, and how the different bloodlines meld together.

Two things are for certain. First, it cannot be done quickly. It takes a long time. Second, it cannot be done via the internet. While a certain amount of information can be gathered that way (though you must always consider the source and be able to separate the wheat from the chaff), the only way to truly understand the dogs and figure out what bloodlines bring what and what all those buzz words like prey drive and defense drive and sharpness and threshold and fight drive and hardness, etc... actually mean is to get out and get hands on experience with the dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm in the process of shopping for a new puppy and I want a work/sport prospect primarily for Schutzhund. Narrowing down to type really isn't helpful enough for me, even east German, west German, Czech, DDR. I've been doing what Chris and Lisa are saying - I pay close attention to the dogs I see in trial and at club or other training and what I like or dislike, then find out the lines, kennel, and pedigree of those dogs and consult more experienced people who can tell me which dogs are the ones that produce which temperament traits. I'm trying to not get sucked in by certain fads with looks, lines, top winning dogs, etc but be honest about what it is I want and don't want. Right now I'm having trouble finding the sort of pedigree I think I want but I'm not ready to buy yet anyway so I'm watching to see who will be doing these types of breedings within the next year or so.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

So, along with watching dogs and getting information on them firsthand, do you guys think it would be beneficial to purchase a pup in the near future to handle, so I can get more familiar with the sport and the dogs, how everything works, etc? What age do pups usually start training? I do not think that my 9 month old would be cut out for it, but I haven't the slightest idea if I could train him for the sport or not with his unknown breeding and age.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Are there going to be any trials in Cali this summer? I would love to see one!

Yes, one the best things is to go to one of these events and talk to people.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think you should absolutely train the dog you have. My first GSD was from no particular bloodlines, but I learned a lot about drive levels, suspicion, and balance by training him. I thought he was "high drive" until I was around and handled real high-drive dogs.

On a side not, I owned a very nice working line male. He was bred twice and I got a puppy from each litter. Both puppies grew up to be sharp, with low trigger levels for aggression. Very unlike the sire who was super stable and social. So I learned firsthand that dogs do not always reproduce themselves


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Before I got Ike I went to the club for a year with Obie (we did some obedience and learned a little about tracking and drive building ) and mostly just watched and tried to learn as much about the sport as possible.

For me it makes more sense to first get "involved" in the sport - even if this is done without a dog - and then go and look for a pup, rather than the other way around. 

For one thing, being around lots of working line dogs and their people will give you a better idea of what to look for in a pup, what you want and what you don't want, what you like and what you don't like. Not every "high drive" WL SchH dogs are the same. Believe me, you will meet some that you will absolutely fall in love with and some that will make you go "Err ... yea ... no thanks". Of course, what's gold for me may be crap for you. Everyone is different.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Alright. I was just worried about possible hip problems my dog could have and some of the activities we'd be participating it doing it, and the fact that he has little drive and that I can't tell if he's "nervy". I've heard training it schutzhund is not good for nervy dogs, is that correct?

Either way, I'm going to look around for the closest club and contact them about training with them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I go to Schutzhund club with two of my dogs and have yet to buy a dog FOR Schutzhund. You can always go out to a club and have the dog evaluated. If he is not suitable, you can still train in other venues and go to the club. A few people in our club joined before they had dogs, there's a lot you can learn by watching, helping, line handling, and we have a few safe, titled dogs that other people can practice handling. I've done all three phases with a dog I did not train, just for practice and a time when I didn't have my dogs along. Also the club people can help you find a dog. There's a lot of good breeders that don't have web sites and don't advertise; you can get good referrals from people who are experienced and "know people".


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Also the club people can help you find a dog. There's a lot of good breeders that don't have web sites and don't advertise; you can get good referrals from people who are experienced and "know people".


Very true. That's how I got Ikie.

I have noticed that the people who first came out to the club (either by themselves or with their current dogs) and then afterwards went out and got pups, these people usually last longer and end up sticking with the sport more than people who first bought their pups and then started looking for a club to attend.

I'm not entirely sure why but that's just what I have noticed.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Okay, then as it stands I'll contact a club and ask about having my dog evaluated. How much do clubs like these usually charge for training and such, or do you have to pay dues to become a member usually, then train for free?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

gagsd said:


> On a side not, I owned a very nice working line male. He was bred twice and I got a puppy from each litter. Both puppies grew up to be sharp, with low trigger levels for aggression. Very unlike the sire who was super stable and social. So I learned firsthand that dogs do not always reproduce themselves


 
You can not just look at the dog, the sire of the pups, the phenotype. You have to look at what produced him. Was he a very nice dog from an exceptional litter or just a very nice dog from a mediocre litter? How had his parents produced and their parents, etc? You also have to look at the females to whom he was bred. The females not only pass on 50% of their genetic makeup to the pups, but they have a tremendous environmental influence over those pups for the first 6-8 weeks. Even if you have two exceptional animals sometimes their genes won't/don't mesh well. This is the real skill in breeding. Understanding not just the dog that stands before you, but also the genetics that produced that dog. This requires experience.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dj, there have been some threads on that topic in the SchH forum or you can start one so we can stick more to the bloodlines/breeding side of things here.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Okay, then as it stands I'll contact a club and ask about having my dog evaluated. How much do clubs like these usually charge for training and such, or do you have to pay dues to become a member usually, then train for free?


We do not charge for visits or evaluating the dog. I'm not sure about other clubs but all of the ones I've inquired about have welcomed me to visit and evaluate the dog at no charge. Some clubs have dues, some just have training or helper fees, some have both. It just depends on how it's run and what the costs are, whether the club is properly insured and who pays for that, equipment costs, etc.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

lhczth said:


> This requires experience.


Absolutely!! and the hard part!
10 years ago when I "got into" German Shepherds, I thought I was brilliant, knew all about AKC and OFA.

To the OP- the more you expose yourself to information the better. Read lots, go to clubs, go to big trials and small .......and listen! I have learned so much in 10 years, and it is exciting to think how much more I might learn in another 10. 
(You can learn a ton sitting in the bleachers and listening to the people behind you talk at a trial!!)

There are 3 people in particular that I have approached for information and input. They have years in the breed, lots of information and common sense. All 3 have been happy to talk to me, evaluate my dogs, and never belittled my dogs (maybe me, but not the dog!). 
I read their posts when I see them on a forum, I study the pedigrees of their dogs, and I listen when they make comments about other dogs.

But I think getting out there and training is the most important. I have learned so much by being out there, working my dogs, watching other people's dogs, and building relationships.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Why not try it with the one you have?
Love the one you're with, so to speak...if he/she washes out, you will still have learned more than you know now.
If it's a short journey or long, it doesn't matter, it's the trip you must take for a change of scenery.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thats a good point and change of scenery is a godd thing


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