# If I grabbed YOUR face, what would you do?



## AuberryShortcake (Mar 9, 2010)

_(A little rant) _

Seriously, if I just walked up to you in the store, squealed "OH How Pretty You Are!!!" and grabbed you by the face, how would you react? Because, this is exactly what people do to dogs, and they act like it is a normal thing to do, just walk up and grab onto another living creature's head.

 I was at a Petco with my foster for an event and people would just grab at her face, and she would pull back as if to say "Excuse me?" and she would look at me. The people in question were like "Oh, she is shy" or expressed that they thought she wasn't as friendly as some of the others. It was all I could do not to ask them what they would do if I reached up out of no where and grabbed their face. Now, what I did do was explain that if they let her approach them and sniff their hands, she would then be more than happy to receive pets, but that she didn't like people just grabbing her like that. But it irritates me that people have so few dog manners.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I use to work at adoption events and am surprised there weren't dogs biting regularly....between people/kids sticking their hands in the crates when it was clearly posted not to touch without asking/sanitizing and the stressful environment of the place. 

I agree so many have no clue about manners when approaching dogs. Before anyone enters an adoption event, they should have a 5 minute informational "seminar" on the subject! 
NOT fair at all to the dogs that have to endure the invasion of their.... everything!


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## AuberryShortcake (Mar 9, 2010)

> Before anyone enters an adoption event, they should have a 5 minute informational "seminar" on the subject!
> NOT fair at all to the dogs that have to endure the invasion of their.... everything!


onyx'girl,
I couldn't agree more.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

you better believe if someone came up and did that to ME, they'd get hit. If they did it to any of my dogs.... well they may not be too thrilled with Riley's reaction. Shasta would probably be slightly confused. Zena either would have nipped them or totally slimed them. Shelby would have hit the floor like you were trying to kill her.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

The vet tech did this to Kain when he was around 8 mos old and she narrowly escaped getting bit in the face. You would think, of all people, that a vet tech would know better than to get all up in a strange dog's face making koohing noises and generally acting like an idiot, regardless of the breed.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my dog isn't hand shy or weak nerved.
if you put both hands around his face
he won't do anything. i think you should
be able to approach a dog from all angles
and touch them anywhere.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I stopped taking my dog into the pet store with my because I don't like people to pet him without permission-mostly because he has "moods" and I don't trust him enough to just have random people petting him. Since some people have no concept of asking permission before reaching out to pet people's dogs, I just don't take him in there with me anymore.

To answer the OP's question-what would I do? Step away quickly and tell the person not to touch me. And then wonder if they are insane!


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## bornfreenowexpensive (Mar 27, 2011)

I think the way people approach animals says a lot about their personality. People who lunge or grab at strange dogs tend to be either not very experienced with animal behavior, or insecure and hoping for immediate acceptance from the dog. I would suggest that potential adopters wait for a dog to approach them with curiosity and interest before touching them. 

If anyone came up to my dog(s) and tried to grab their heads I would be displeased and I'd have to engage my Street Fighter moves. J/K! I would probably try to give them a brief lesson on how to approach strange dogs while they look at me like I'm a crazy person.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> my dog isn't hand shy or weak nerved.
> if you put both hands around his face
> he won't do anything. i think you should
> be able to approach a dog from all angles
> and touch them anywhere.


I completely agree. I often say I am "mean" to Glock. I grab his head between my hands and play with him. I always feel that my dogs should put up with whatever I throw at them.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

violation of personal space is violation of personal space whether it be human or animal. doggiedad, i'm curious...

let's go back to the original title of the thread
if i approached you and put my hands around your face
or maybe walked up behind you and
then maybe touched you "anywhere" (now that's an interesting imaginary visual, lol)
you okee-dokee with that?

fact is, doggiedad, sounds like you've got a great
strong nerved, un-handshy
great temperment
dog

however, i would say that 
that is not the norm in shepherd
temperment
and maybe if you're okay with my little scenario above, not the norm in man
(or woman)
temperment

so...just because you're like you are
and your dog has the most solid temperment on earth
doesn't' mean people in general 
are within their rights (or any less foolish) 
to violate the personal space
of other beings

(she climbs down off her soapbox and smiles again at the imaginary visual, lolol)

nighty-night doggiedad...


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> my dog isn't hand shy or weak nerved.
> if you put both hands around his face
> he won't do anything. i think you should
> be able to approach a dog from all angles
> and touch them anywhere.


i agree with this too...i expect this from my dogs...however she said she had a foster. the problem with walking up and doing this is you don't know where this dog is in his/her life. you don't know if they're rehabilitating, being fostered etc. i think it's kind of people to ASK first. and everyone that always asks to pet my dog i always say a nice thank you for asking


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

megan...whole lotta difference in what you do to your own dog and what others do to your dog. i could probably operate on the cashman without anesthetic...on the other hand, you might not even want to move too quickly around me in his presence. he thinks the entire reason he was put on earth is to make sure that no one even thinks about harming his mother...and he is the interpreter of what you _might_ be thinking and what _might_ constitute harm. grabbing his head...oh lordy...not gonna happen, totally not gonna happen...lolol...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

katieliz said:


> violation of personal space is violation of personal space whether it be human or animal. doggiedad, i'm curious...
> 
> let's go back to the original title of the thread
> if i approached you and put my hands around your face
> ...


I agree.
Haven't people learned their lesson from that ****zu at Home Depot that the door greeter petted and the dog bit her in the face so hard that she required plastic surgery! Not everybody has such a perfect dog. It is very simple, ASK BEFORE YOU PET A DOG.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> my dog isn't hand shy or weak nerved.
> if you put both hands around his face
> he won't do anything. i think you should
> be able to approach a dog from all angles
> and touch them anywhere.


_I_ can approach _MY_ dog from any angle and touch him anywhere I choose and he's cool with that. But, I would never expect him to allow a complete stranger to walk up and grab him by his face and him not react. If that's what you're calling 'weak nerves' then I'm glad my dog is weak nerved. But, I believe the breed standard calls it 'aloofness'.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

katieliz said:


> megan...whole lotta difference in what you do to your own dog and what others do to your dog. i could probably operate on the cashman without anesthetic...on the other hand, you might not even want to move too quickly around me in his presence. he thinks the entire reason he was put on earth is to make sure that no one even thinks about harming his mother...and he is the interpreter of what you _might_ be thinking and what _might_ constitute harm. grabbing his head...oh lordy...not gonna happen, totally not gonna happen...lolol...[/QUOTE
> I can grab my dogs head, ears, whatever and he doesn't mind either-because I am his MOM! Most GSD's are wary of strangers and not lent to immediate and indiscriminate friendships so how does this personality mix with strangers grabbing a GSD by the face? Most of them won't be wagging their tail.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

razin, thanks for reminding doggiedad about the breed standard, something that way too often gets forgotten...even by me what with imagining approaching doggiedad from behind and grabbing...oh, never mind, lololol...


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

AW GOSH! To answer the original question......If you walk up to me in a store and tell me how pretty I am, then YES - you can grab my face. Do you really think I'm pretty? LOL!


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

I do have to admit I have NEVER had anyone walk up and grab my dogs. Pet them? Yes. Grab, no. I always like it when people ask to pet them, simply because you never can know what a dog is like and it is always safest to ask. However, even knowing what the standards are there are certain things that I expect my dog to be able to handle, mainly with the kids (siblings) in my life.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think people should strive to have a dog who is well balanced and socialized enough that the dog will not react to people displaying poor dog-manners. 

Unfortunately, some dogs will NEVER be comfortable in this situation regardless of training and socialization. Owners of these dogs need to be more vigilant to protect their dogs from the ignorance of people. 

Other people's dogs are not yet at the point where they are comfortable with what the dog might do in any situation. These people need to be more vigilant to protect their dogs from the ignorance of people.

In a perfect world all people would know how to act around dogs. It is not what we have. 

Part of me would like to go and rustle the hair of an individual's child when they do something like that. But usually people with kids in tow are busy doing what they need to do while paying attention to their kids, and not going out of their way to molest my dogs. The ones that do touch without permission, are usually on their own, or kids. Still, that is the equivalent. 

It is not so much whether the dog will take it but it is just rude to walk up and pet my property without asking leave. I mean, If you see a nice Harley parked outside the store, are you going to go over and stroke it? If you do, someone's feathers WILL be ruffled.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think a stranger should be able to approach
a dog from all angles and touch them anywhere.
training and socializing has a lot to do with it.
i like that my dog is approachable.



doggiedad said:


> my dog isn't hand shy or weak nerved.
> if you put both hands around his face
> he won't do anything. i think you should
> be able to approach a dog from all angles
> and touch them anywhere.





RazinKain said:


> _I_ can approach _MY_ dog from any angle and touch him anywhere I choose and he's cool with that. But, I would never expect him to allow a complete stranger to walk up and grab him by his face and him not react. If that's what you're calling 'weak nerves' then I'm glad my dog is weak nerved. But, I believe the breed standard calls it 'aloofness'.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

oh yeah touching a harley is a total faux pas, harley people are fanatical about their bikes and harleys definitely have their own aura of personal space. as a matter of fact, come to think of it, harleys are the german shepherd dogs of the bike world. only two kinds of dogs (and bikes?), german shepherds (harleys?), and those who *wish they were*...well, that's what my grampa kaiser used to say anyway, lol...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

grab me Katieliz, grab me. i might like it. 



katieliz said:


> razin, thanks for reminding doggiedad about the breed standard, something that way too often gets forgotten...even by me what with imagining approaching doggiedad from behind and grabbing...oh, never mind, lololol...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

hmmm, I think a BMW and a GSD are more alike than a Harley/GSD..... Harley's are a USA product after all! 
I agree, don't be messin with anyone's bike or dog or there may be !!!! to pay:help:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Doggydad,
:dancingtree::snowmen::toasting::congratulations:

You have a well socialized and balanced German shepherd dog.

uppy:You should be very proud. 

Good Job! 

************************************************************************************

The only way for others to achieve this feat is to get their less than 100% bomb proof dog out there and into positive socialization experiences, that is if the dog does not have a serious problem with weak nerves.

When people are out their socializing their dogs, and people come out of no where and go right for the head of the dog, that can actually be dangerous or set them back a bit. 

It is irritating and people should be less forward with other people's pets, they should in the least ask, and when they ask, they should be able to hear both yes and no.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> hmmm, I think a BMW and a GSD are more alike than a Harley/GSD..... Harley's are a USA product after all!
> I agree, don't be messin with anyone's bike or dog or there may be !!!! to pay:help:


I agree. I don't think my GSD is anything like a Harley. For example; my GSD wasn't overpriced, he's always ready to run, I don't have to feed him the most expensive food to make him function, and he doesn't have body parts falling off him. This is why I ride a Yamaha.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> AW GOSH! To answer the original question......If you walk up to me in a store and tell me how pretty I am, then YES - you can grab my face. *Do you really think I'm pretty?* LOL!


 :spittingcoffee:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, Harleys may be approachable, and they will not bite if a total stranger strokes them, but the owner isn't going to be happy about it. 

Just because our dogs will not bite someone that comes out of the blue and pets him, it does not mean we WANT them to do that. We might be training with distractions, or working on some type of certification, or we may prefer to get our shopping done and get out. 

I think having a dog makes us more approachable to others, and if that is not part of our point in having a dog, that might be a little hard to take.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

My dogs really dont mind being grabbed or petted. They have never had any issues with people. Im 6'4" 300lbs so I would probably help the blind person get to the eye doctor if they grabbed my face and said how pretty I was. 
But seriously I train my dog in a field adjacent to a public park as do many of the K9 officers in the area as we have the USPCA obstacle course set up there. Many times on my way to and from the training field children and adults have approached my dogs some ask permission some dont. If I thought there was a chance that one of my dogs might fear bite I wouldent bring them to public areas where I didnt have total control of animals and people. Some of our K9 officers drive onto the field to avoid the public as their dogs arent very tolerant. If I bring my dog to the feed store for example I expect to be apprached by people, If I didnt want this attention I wouldent bring my dogs in the store. But thats just me, you are free to do as you wish.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ed1911 said:


> My dogs really dont mind being grabbed or petted. They have never had any issues with people. Im 6'4" 300lbs so I would probably help the blind person get to the eye doctor if they grabbed my face and said how pretty I was.
> But seriously I train my dog in a field adjacent to a public park as do many of the K9 officers in the area as we have the USPCA obstacle course set up there. Many times on my way to and from the training field children and adults have approached my dogs some ask permission some dont. If I thought there was a chance that one of my dogs might fear bite I wouldent bring them to public areas where I didnt have total control of animals and people. Some of our K9 officers drive onto the field to avoid the public as their dogs arent very tolerant. If I bring my dog to the feed store for example I expect to be apprached by people, If I didnt want this attention I wouldent bring my dogs in the store. But thats just me, you are free to do as you wish.


ed, how do you go about making your dog more approachable? How do you go about socializing them to unknown people? I do not know that any of us who take a dog out think it WILL fear bite, but we will not KNOW that for sure until it happens. 

The only way to socialize the dog is to get them out there. Lots of dogs at petsmart are being socialized. They are works in progress, not finished. If you wait until your dog is perfect before taking them anywhere, they will never go anywhere.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Im probably the worse trainer on this board so I wont try to give advice. My dogs just dont have any issues with people. My female was a little leary of some dogs but I was told she was attacked by a large dog before I got her, she is pretty much over it now and falls in with whoever. Im just lucky I guess. I have no secret squirrel tips for training.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

My post kinda sounds like Im a K9 officer. Im not. Selzer you have probably forgotten more about training than I will ever know so if you want to bring your dog to pets mart its probably a good idea. I was just answering the question.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

doggiedad...consider yourself virtually grabbed!!! jeez, what would we do if we _both_ liked it??? now there'd be some trouble.

jane, maybe beemers are like german working lines and harleys are like american show lines...low slung, over angulated, eye candy!!!


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

katieliz said:


> doggiedad...*consider yourself virtually grabbed!!!* jeez, what would we do if we _both_ liked it??? now there'd be some trouble.
> 
> jane, maybe beemers are like german working lines and harleys are like american show lines...low slung, over angulated, eye candy!!!


surely 'virtual grabbing' is a board rules violation. The thread police will be by shortly to slap your hand with a ruler. :lurking:


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

If a stranger walked up to me and put their hands on me then they are probably going to get punched. I expect people to ask before petting my dog and if I see someone approaching I WILL step in front of them and tell them they can't pet her. She prefers to approach strangers herself to sniff and greet them. Then she may allow them to pet her, some people she just doesn't like and will walk away and not allow them to touch her.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zena would be fine with kids grabbing her. She didnt and still doesnt care. Strange adults on the other hand, she would try to step away and if they pushed the issue, she might growl. She'd never bite unless i was threatened. Riley on the other hand would nip. My sister in law would blow in his face every chance she got and he doesnt like it so he'll nip to make you stop. Shasta is going through a phase of mouthing so there's really no telling for sure what she'd do right now. Probably try to give kisses with her cat litter breath.... 

Like i said earlier, someone did it to me... they'd get hurt. Severely. I know everyone ideally should have a stable minded, strong nerved dog but the reality is most people dont. half of them dont even know how to get to that point while the other half either dont care or just automatically think their dog is perfect without training and socialization. Some dogs also just dont like strangers touching them despite socialization and good manners and when pushed will let someone know they messed up. Even the best dogs can have a bad day. and you can do everything you can to protect them from maulers but you cant catch all of them. There's bound to be at least one.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

It's amazing that even if you have a "scary" GSD some people really don't hesitate to get all in your dog's face.. of course I had someone do that once and as they were crouched down eye level with Odin asked "So does he bite?" :hammer:

I've been fortunate that Odin is a very tolerant dog, and the older and more aloof he gets I find that when people approach him and he kind of blows them off most people take that as a cue that he's not too interested. If they insist he will humor them with a quick greeting, but he's definitely not all super excited. If a child comes up to him in a store it's game over.. I have yet to see him turn down an opportunity to greet kids, the problem with that though is he likes to lean on them as they pet him. I've seemed to have better luck with kids asking to pet my dog than the adults.

Now if someone were to walk up to me and grab my face there's a good chance I may hurt somebody..


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## JPrice (Feb 19, 2011)

RazinKain said:


> _I_ can approach _MY_ dog from any angle and touch him anywhere I choose and he's cool with that. But, I would never expect him to allow a complete stranger to walk up and grab him by his face and him not react. If that's what you're calling 'weak nerves' then I'm glad my dog is weak nerved. But, I believe the breed standard calls it 'aloofness'.


Exactly.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Seems like some people are trying to win the Darwin award when they grab a strange dog by the face. Good luck to them. My dog would probably just pull away and look at them like they are nuts....... or, "What did I do to deserve THIS?! and who in heck are YOU?"
I do a lot of face grabbing and all over grabbing and, with me, she enjoys the play. When I stop she comes and sticks her face as near to my hands as she can.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

If a stranger were to walk up to me and grab me by my face, I think I might would bite that person on the nose...... 


If a stranger were to come up to one of my dogs and grab them by the face, I might would inform them that the proper etiquette for approaching a strange dog is to first sniff them in the butt...


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

idahospud49 said:


> I completely agree. I often say I am "mean" to Glock. I grab his head between my hands and play with him. I always feel that my dogs should put up with whatever I throw at them.


While I agree with what you do here (desensitizing him and thinking they should put up with whatever you give them) and do the same with my dog there's a difference between me violating my dog's space and a stranger doing it. We have trust and he knows nothing bad will happen to him when he's close to me, and he will generally put up with anything if it means getting attention from me. At the same time, a stranger hasn't established trust or any sort of bond and I don't think my dog is that excited to have some strange smelling hands rubbed all over him.

Bottom line is while I'll let my mother come hug me and soak my cheeks with kisses I wouldn't let some strange woman do that same, and while my dad can hug me and we'll even play-wrestle sometimes ("macho" stuff, he's into that - go figure) I wouldn't let some stranger do that either...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

katieliz said:


> violation of personal space is violation of personal space whether it be human or animal. doggiedad, i'm curious...
> 
> let's go back to the original title of the thread
> if i approached you and put my hands around your face
> ...


I almost just wet my pants over this, not just because of what you said but the style in which you wrote it! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :rofl:


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

None of my dogs would tolerate that. I'm pretty sure two of three would give issue a bite from fear aggression (badly abused rescue dogs). When we bring them out in public (walk on trails, etc) we don't allow people to approach them.

Now my well socialized lab won't let people do that him either. He thinks people touching the top of his head is rude, grabbing his face would in down right insulting. I can do it as play, but he would definitely move away. I expect my dog to be well behaved, but I don't see why they should have to stand still for a stranger to pet them (or grab them) in a way that the dog perceives as rude. If my dogs moves a step away from them, that's absolutely fine by me.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

AuberryShortcake said:


> I was at a Petco with my foster for an event *and people would just grab at her face, *and she would pull back as if to say "Excuse me?" and she would look at me. The people in question were like "Oh, she is shy" or expressed that they thought she wasn't as friendly as some of the others. It was all I could do not to ask them what they would do if I reached up out of no where and grabbed their face. Now, what I did do was explain that if they let her approach them and sniff their hands, she would then be more than happy to receive pets, but that she didn't like people just grabbing her like that. But it irritates me that people have so few dog manners.


The part in bold stood out the most to me. Why are _YOU_ letting people bend down and grab your dog by the face? Your just as wrong for letting it happen as they are for doing it.

I have never had anyone try and touch my dog without asking first and all I always tell them no. At 7 months old I stopped letting people pet my now 10 month old pup. Socialization doesn't mean petting zoo. He should be fine in public with people around which is all I want from him. Not looking for nor do I want a golden retreiver or a collie.

I never let anyone pet my 2 yr old as he is my PP. He doesn't really care for people and if someone rushed in on him more than likely they would get bit. And that would be my fault b/c I allowed someone to come after him like that.

I don't call it weak nerves as some dogs are "sharp". Everyone has their own definition of "the breed standard" that is why there are 50 million different types of GSD breeders that breed different types of GSD's. I think the "breed standard" should be a general guideline, not law. Every breeder loves to quote Max like they knew him personally.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree with doggiedad. My dog will allow any stranger to touch him anywhere, and that would include being grabbed by the face. If a dog has been socialized to it, they aren't going to think it's a bad thing. Just like humans are socialized to hand-shakes. I don't think strangers SHOULD be touching any dog without permission, especially in such an aggressive way, but I think your dog should be able to handle it if it ever does happen. Maybe not enjoy it, but at least put up with it.

I can't always be guarding my dog from strangers, especially sneaky little children that are much shorter than me. I'd rather have the safety net of him being socialized to rude people than to have a bite incident happen because one rude person happened to get through. 

Once when I was in petland, Chrono was standing near the end of the aisle and I was looking at toys for him. An employee came around the corner, and in a second he had pretty much jumped on chrono and started rough housing with him. Chrono loved it, and that's the kind of behavior I want to see from him(the dog, not the employee who was a complete moron). I'd rather be surprised over him biting someone than to be thinking "oh I knew this would happen if someone touched him like that."

So I really don't think people should be acting that way at all, but I think a well balanced dog should be able to cope with it happening without ripping someone's hand/face off.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

s'bear...nope can't agree with "if a dog has been socialized to it, they aren't goining to think it's a bad thing", it's nothing like humans and handshakes...all four of my dogs have been socialized exactly the same. jeni and caesar you can take anywhere and anyone can do anythng to them (although i am always there to protect them from having anything done to them that i don't want done to them). seraphina would briefly put up with it and move away, you can see her thinking, "too much love, too much love". she is what i would call aloof, but she would never lay a tooth on you. now the cashman, he's another story. no one in their right mind would even approach him (or me when he is with me, which is always), and frankly, since i am no longer young and strong and fast...i have never had a problem with the fact that one of my four dogs has taken it on as his personal project (since the moment he walked in my door at 9 weeks of age), to make sure that no one even looks at me crosswise. it's been my lifelong experience with these dogs that they all have their own inherent character traits and for some of them no amount of socialization can change those traits, while some of them can have no or very little socialization and yet be friendly and approachable to all.

oh and btw, your black boy in your avatar is BEAUTIFUL.


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## AuberryShortcake (Mar 9, 2010)

> The part in bold stood out the most to me. Why are _YOU_ letting people bend down and grab your dog by the face? Your just as wrong for letting it happen as they are for doing it


 You are correct, Ace952, in stating that I was wrong for letting this happen. I will admit that I was unprepared for this and did not anticipate it the first time it happened, so therefore it was my fault. 



> Now, what I did do was explain that if they let her approach them and sniff their hands, she would then be more than happy to receive pets, but that she didn't like people just grabbing her like that


I also should have elaborated a little more when I said this, but I was in a hurry this morning and neglected details. After the initial grab, I was more alert and intercepted the people who attempted this by standing in front of Gypsy and was able show them what to do, giving them the above information. But in my rush this morning, I didn't mention all of that in my post. 

I also believe that she should be able to handle what ever comes her way, even if she doesn't like it. Keep in mind, she is a foster, I don't know a lot about her background, and I am doing the best I can to get her better socialized and better able to handle what ever comes her way now that she is in my home.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

katieliz said:


> oh and btw, your black boy in your avatar is BEAUTIFUL.


Thank you! That avatar always makes me laugh, because he just looks _so_ happy to see me, but he had no idea I was leaving him there to go inside and eat dinner without him .


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

auberry, just want to take a moment to say thank you for fostering. the need is so great.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

good job of fostering as well.
Always need more people doing that.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I don't think anyone already posted this so I will:

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and *a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships.* The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. *The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler;* it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very _serious faults_ and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be _disqualified._ The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


Although the breed standard says that a GSD must be confident, no shyness, and willing to meet 'overtures', it also says there should be a certain aloofness so that the dog is not immedietely best friends with every stranger.

As stated by the AKC, a GSD should allow a person to mess with its ears, face, teeth, etc. However, in my opinion, this is only attributed to a person that is *approved by the owner*. In a competition scenario, the dog knows that he is expected to stand still and be touched. But in a pet store scenario, the dog understands it is not a training or competition setting. When a complete stranger that his owner is not aware of reaches for the dog, the dog understands his owner is not asking him to let this person touch him. (my opinion)

I believe that if the dog is approached and fondled by a stranger, by no means should he bite or growl, but for him to move his head away or walk away and sit by his owners side is NOT a fault. 

When I think of aloof, I think of myself- I have a few very close friends that I share everything with and that I hug and touch all of the time. However, with strangers or new aquaintances I do not want them to touch me or hug me after meeting me. I don't wish to share information about me or my life with them unless need be. I have my friends and although I would welcome new ones, I am not avidly trying to make friends with everyone I meet.

My dog is TOO aloof which is not good. But it sounds like many people on this post have GSDs that are more like golden retrievers. They should be aloof if they are meeting the breed standard. There is nothing wrong with your GSD letting everyone pet and grab him/her. It just isn't want the breed was bred to be.

Being well socialized isn't the same as letting any stranger reach and grab you.

I keep blabbering on. Hope some of that made sense. By no means am I an expert. Just posting my opinion!


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## Jake71 (Feb 2, 2011)

I always like to let the dog in question smell me first before petting them.. AFTER i've asked the owner if it's ok.

I've had lots of kids ask and I tell them it's ok.. our two are easy going but you never know.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well if a stranger came up and grabbed me, I would NOT appreciate it one bit,,and if I had masi with me, she wouldn't either All this goes down the toilet if it was a man who had booze on his breath, Masi is a lush who happens to 'like' men with booze on their breath, why I dont know, neither my husband or I drink..

Now, if a stranger did that to Masi, she definately would not appreciate it, thankfully most people "ask" first, and I decline but always thank them for asking. 

Yesterday I went to a huge doggie event, supposedly 9,000 people showed up last year, (don't think it was near that many since it was rather monsoonal!) I opted to not take Masi, because I knew there would be loads of kids around and hadn't been to this even prior.

So I took my very social aussie, and sure enough, people were fawning all over her, not asking, I'd turn around and a kid would be hugging her..Fine by me, Jynx again, is very social and loves everybody.

Masi is not an aussie, nor a golden retriever, she is what she is, she prefers to just "be", she is a 'watcher' as I call her, and when out in public, and we go to ALOT of public events, she minds her own business and prefers others to respect her space. (unless of course your a boozed breath male

At home, all bets are off, she'll let anyone in the house and is fine with it, she certainly isn't one to depend on to 'guard' the house or yard..And again, that's FINE by me, she is what she is, and easy to manage. 

Of my previous gsd's, 2 were social butterflies, one could care less what anyone did to him, but he wasn't going to be your best friend, he was the definition of 'aloof with strangers'..

I don't want a 'social butterfly' in my gsd, they have to be able to go out in public and 'deal' with whatever gets thrown at them, and they have to have manners. They have to mind their own business and have solid obedience. Those are my basic requirements. Masi fits the bill for me


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> My dog is TOO aloof which is not good. But it sounds like many people on this post have GSDs that are more like golden retrievers. They should be aloof if they are meeting the breed standard. There is nothing wrong with your GSD letting everyone pet and grab him/her. It just isn't want the breed was bred to be.
> 
> Being well socialized isn't the same as letting any stranger reach and grab you.
> 
> I keep blabbering on. Hope some of that made sense. By no means am I an expert. Just posting my opinion!


I think your dog allowing strangers to touch it doesn't go against standard. Aloof just means the dog doesn't seek attention from strangers because it's not interested in making friends. A dog can stand there and be handled by a stranger while still remaining aloof. It's when the dog enjoys it or seeks it that it's no longer being aloof, imo.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, aloof but approachable -- I think that means if someone does as was described, the dog SHOULD stand its ground, and not act fearful, not bite -- that is approachable. The dog SHOULD NOT jump up and lick the persons face and ears -- that would not be aloof. 

What a dog should or should not be like, is not necessarily the reality. We need to know our dogs and protect them from people.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

yes how dogs are comes down to bloodlines, genetics & how you are training your dog. If you want a dog as a pet and want anyone to approach it and touch it and what not then you train for that. Nothing wrong with that at all. 

Everyone likes their dog to be a certain way. No one way is "better" than another nor does it mean one is a "breed standard" more than another dog that is of opposite personality.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and ace I'll still take that crazy boy of yours))


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> and ace I'll still take that crazy boy of yours))



TAKE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol! 
I need a summer break......if not longer.

I am going to post some picture of him for you when I get home.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

yes yes I definately want to see how he's turning out,,you can send him to Camp Diane for the summer, altho you may not get him back


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Although the breed standard says that a GSD must be confident, no shyness, and willing to meet 'overtures', it also says there should be a certain aloofness so that the dog is not immedietely best friends with every stranger.
> 
> As stated by the AKC, a GSD should allow a person to mess with its ears, face, teeth, etc. However, in my opinion, this is only attributed to a person that is *approved by the owner*. In a competition scenario, the dog knows that he is expected to stand still and be touched. But in a pet store scenario, the dog understands it is not a training or competition setting. When a complete stranger that his owner is not aware of reaches for the dog, the dog understands his owner is not asking him to let this person touch him. (my opinion)
> 
> ...


I totally agree and it is what I meant with my dogs. I don't expect Glock to be overjoyed with someone grabbing his face or someone he doesn't know petting him. Well right now he is because he is 16 weeks old! Every dog is different, but I have a feeling he is going to be similar to Amadeus. He would put up with someone petting him, but he didn't give any affection to a stranger. There was no aggression, simply that ignoring/aloof manner. "Sure you can pet me if you must, but don't expect me to return the love." To me that is what the aloofness with strangers means. If it is someone that I have accepted and talked to and the dog perceives no threat, then he should be able to put up with a pet. It is totally different if it is some person who has the appearance and attitude of a threat.


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## Greek (May 16, 2011)

Bah... I absolutely hate when people run up to my dog and start grabbing and petting him with out asking, I completely do not mind if people pet my dog but all I ask is for them to ask! A couple weeks ago while walking by the LCBO a slightly intoxicated man ran up to Titan and started grabbing his face. I mean hey a dog should be trained to allow this, but come on... really?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ace952 said:


> yes how dogs are comes down to bloodlines, genetics & how you are training your dog. *If you want a dog as a pet and want anyone to approach it and touch it and what not then you train for that*. Nothing wrong with that at all.
> 
> Everyone likes their dog to be a certain way. No one way is "better" than another nor does it mean one is a "breed standard" more than another dog that is of opposite personality.


I do not want to assume anything in this statement. 

But since there are a LOT of people out there who get GSDs to be guard dogs and then keep them away from everyone, do not allow petting and such, to make them a better guard dog, I think it would be good, if you could explain what you meant by this statement. 

My dogs and I would probably be perfectly content if me and my family were the only people on the planet, but as we are not, I want my dogs to have lots of good experiences with people of all types, sizes, etc., so that if my dogs are ever in an unfamiliar situation, they have plenty of ok situations to draw from, so they will not be likely to over-react to a normal situation. And at the same time, they will know right away that something is not right if that is ever the case. 

Having an approachable dog is definitely nice for pets, but it is also nice for whatever reason you have your dog. k-9s, performance dogs, SAR dogs, service dogs -- all of them need to go to the vet, and there is no excuse for a dog to be freaked out by that. Whatever you do with your dog, having a hard time at the vet or not being able to have someone else groom your dog would be a total pain.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

I see this both ways... yes a dog should be able to maintain its composure... But people should be mindful that they don't know jack about a strange dog and should act with some degree of caution. 

it's like when a woman is pregnant. people just assume that they can put their hands on her belly.... Wrong!!!


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

selzer said:


> I do not want to assume anything in this statement.
> 
> But since there are a LOT of people out there who get GSDs to be guard dogs and then keep them away from everyone, do not allow petting and such, to make them a better guard dog, I think it would be good, if you could explain what you meant by this statement.
> 
> ...



With that statement I meant that if you want a dog like that then you train for it. Socialize it to where you let everyone approach it, pet it, etc. It you want that in your service dog then more power to you, you just have to train for it.

As you know there is a difference between a guard dog and a PP dog. Lets clarify which one we are talking about first.

I personally don't care for my dog to be that way. Does it mean that my dog wont be "the breed standard"? No, it just means that I am raising/training the dog to be a different type of dog. 

There are numerous breeders as they breed different types of dogs. Now after seeing and watching and learning different types of GSD's I see that I prefer a certain type. I like the breeders that breed for very sharp, hard, defensive, very aloof but handler responsive/sensitive. These types of dogs come with a huge responsibility but that is fine with me. I just don't feel that b/c a dog isn't tolerable of strangers or is sharp (meaning quick to react) does it necessarily mean that it has weak nerves.

With the vet, I always muzzle mine, just in case. Safety first.

I don't want to derail this thread off course but make another about it and we can discuss more.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what Ace said^^


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The other part of this equation is our duty to be on alert as needed depending on the dog. If I am out with my BC-Chow mix and someone grabs her face, she will be fine. If someone tries to grab by Chow-Terv mix, she will not be fine. So my job changes with the dog. With any new foster dog, I am at high alert. This helps them to learn I am in charge and to trust me, bonus!

This includes being aware of my surroundings, looking at/watching my dog and not the person I am talking to, being ready to give a verbal and then physical correction to someone trying to get near my dog - body blocking generally, but moving their hand away from my dog if they don't get the hint after a verbal and a step in front, etc. When people pet my dogs past the point the dog is comfortable, I pull them away and say that was great, thanks. Saying ooooh, she's shyyyyyy helps. She's scaaaaared helps too. Soothingly and people adopt that same calming oooohhhhh response back at you.

This comes from going to a lot of Meet and Greets which apparently people take very literally!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> I think having a dog makes us more approachable to others, and if that is not part of our point in having a dog, that might be a little hard to take.


Not necessarily, especially with a large dog a lot of people will keep their distance. Many many people will avoid walking past even when I am out walking my GSD, let alone approach us. 
I can't think of any time a stranger tried grabbing one of my dogs' faces, it seems like a weird thing to do. I used to grab my Golden's cheeks and smush them (while talking baby talk to her) and she loved it, and I'm sure she would love it if anyone did it because she loved any attention no matter what it was, she would even wag her tail when the vet took blood or gave her a shot because the vet was paying attention to her/touching her.
If someone grabbed Bianca my GSD's face, she would probably lick their face.

Another thing I never understood is why people like to stick their faces in a dog's face! Good way to get bit (or get a full-face-washing if it's Bianca.)


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

idahospud49 said:


> I completely agree. I often say I am "mean" to Glock. I grab his head between my hands and play with him. I always feel that my dogs should put up with whatever I throw at them.


I can do whatever I want to my dogs in whatever manner I want and not be at any risk of being bitten. A stranger cannot.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People give showlines a lot of guff for temperament, but a show dog often has people in their face, petting them, looking at their teeth, touching their berries. Yupp, the dog must put up with indignities. If he tries to bite the judge -- DQ. 

Of course they are USUALLY conditioned for this from the time they are about four months old. 

Not Rushie. He was two years old when he was initiated to the ole berry check. Better yet the judge was a man, LOL. (I live alone, so Rush was really not around that many men.) I swear after the guy checked them, the poor boy put his tail over them and hid them. The next time he had his goods checked, it was old hat and he did not worry about it. 

Rush would have loved ANYONE to grab his cheeks -- either set. He was a lover, not a fighter.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Iletthedogout said:


> I see this both ways... yes a dog should be able to maintain its composure... But people should be mindful that they don't know jack about a strange dog and should act with some degree of caution.
> 
> it's like when a woman is pregnant. people just assume that they can put their hands on her belly.... Wrong!!!


Good comparison. Or having a total stanger going up to and touching a baby's face. I'd automatically slap any hand that reached towards my child. It would be reflex and I'd be fast.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Personally I want want my dog to accept that behavior. This doesn't mean I want them to snap or bite or show aggression, of course, but I dont want them to just melt into it either. To me its different when its family/pack vs someone you've never met. I don't want people coming up into my dogs face, its rude, uncalled for and for all I know the person could end up biting my dog! I don't know them, I don't know what _they_ will do.

I think it could be compared also to a stranger giving your dog treats. I'm sure some people are ok with it, but thats another thing I am not ok with. I don't want my dog/s taking treats from strangers.

Both situations can be dangerous to both dogs and human alike.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDolch said:


> Personally I want want my dog to accept that behavior. This doesn't mean I want them to snap or bite or show aggression, of course, but I dont want them to just melt into it either. To me its different when its family/pack vs someone you've never met. I don't want people coming up into my dogs face, its rude, uncalled for and for all I know the person could end up biting my dog! I don't know them, I don't know what _they_ will do.
> 
> I think it could be compared also to a stranger giving your dog treats. I'm sure some people are ok with it, but thats another thing I am not ok with. I don't want my dog/s taking treats from strangers.
> 
> Both situations can be dangerous to both dogs and human alike.


Yeah, my dogs take treats from strangers. 

They take it nicely and leave the fingers intact. 

And, normally, they spit it out on the floor and do not pick it up again.

What is odd about this, is how many people tend to take that personally. 

I mean really, hand my dog a stinky, stale, foul, generic milkbone and then feel personally affronted when they say "ha-a-actuey!"

If you want the dog to EAT it, make it WORTH it!

I used to apologize. 

Now I think THEY should apologize to me, for trying to feed my dogs garbage. 

I guarantee you that if you offer my dog a fresh piece of chicken or steak, raw or cooked, they WILL eat it. If you give them dried or smoked pig ear, they WILL eat that. If you give them a piece of freeze dried liver, they will eat that. If you give the a piece of cheese they will eat that too.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

heh..my little terrier is completely un food motivated it aint funny. He spits out pretty much anything someone gives to him, unless he knows you and ive given the ok.

The only thing I've done is train him to wait for me to release him during feeding time, it doesn't bother me any, but ya, ive had a few people get upset over it. lol


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm pretty sure Sasha would have a better reaction to someone reaching up and grabbing her face than I would if someone came up and grabbed my face lol! I don't really appreciate people invading my personal space. Sasha has had to endure some pretty unfair things in regards to her personal space (a small child grabbing her around the neck after I had told said child not to, but foolishly turned my back for .5) and she has taken it in stride. The point is, just because I have a dog that _will_ endure it, she shouldn't _have _to. I'm not going to bite someone for grabbing me by the face, but it doesn't mean they should do it just because they can; same goes for my dog. Can you? Probably so. Should you? Probably not.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

genetics and temperament DO play a big part in this equasion...............a nervy, fearful dog can be trained and managed............as long as the owner is always aware of every situation...turn your back for a second and things can happen.....no matter how well trained and socialized.......the unpredictable genetically unbalanced dog will always fall back to instictual measures if not carefully managed........it is what it is.........and unless anyone has had a dog like this its easy to say its a matter of training and socializing which helps but doesn't change the make up........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree you can NOT change genetics.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

some dogs are also more genetically suspicious than others, which can be managed with the right training..............there are so many variables here..........what it comes down to is a responsible owner who knows exactly what they have and handling situations accordingly.........now there are people who are in denial about what their dog is really like and do not take measures to ensure the safety of the dog via training and proper socialization and genetic makeup tendancies, and are not responsible owners, this is a recipe for eventual disaster,......unfortunately, there are many out there in this catagory.......


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

I personally would have bit you.... lol.

My dogs all would vary in that senerio. Beep would have removed someones face(unless the ''toucher'' was a kid,she seems to understand its a child) Mischa and Pip likely would have done her WTF? face and backed up like ''why you touch me for'',Rosie or Bella would have head butted the person in the face(out of pure excitement-Boing!)and Kainai would have hid LONG before someone got that close.


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

OMG, I love the title of this thread. My Morgan girl (RIP) was a very dignified and serious old girl . . . One day my mother grabbed her face. I swear, that dog pretended my mother was invisible for MONTHS. Mom would come over to visit, and Morgan acted like she wasn't there. It was all due to the "grabbing the face" incident. I will never forget the look in Morgan's eyes when someone would approach her with that "Ima gonna gwab yer face" stance. . . Her eyes would literally say, "are you fricking crazy? I will bite YOURS off."


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