# Is breeding a cause of OCD behavior in our breed?



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I see where many people think that Lasers lead to OCD behaviors in some dogs....is this genetic or environmental? Are nerves and balance factors? Or is it addictive?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have been told that repetitive use of laser /chasing will actually damage synapses in the brain - short circuits so to speak.

One day, I met up with a guy at a local park. He was a good friend of a NAPWDA master trainer and I had dabbled a bit training with them. He had a young czech bred dog from a shortlived local who was producing a ton of litters and selling very inexpensively to the LE community. The dog was about a year and a half old. When not actively engaged, he sat or stood and stared at the ground intently. He would pounce every 15-20 seconds. A correction and command would break this behavior, but when the owner relaxed, it would resume. It was pathetic. Owner said he had played with a laser with dog as pup daily to wear him out, and this was the behavior he had with the laser. Vet specialty clinic told him dog had brain damage. Soon afterwards, dog progressed to seizures and after failing to control/limit these, dog was euthanized.

The whole family of dogs were thin nerved but not environmentally unsound - I saw many close relatives in the area and the guy actually owned the dogs sire as well. Sire had bad elbows/hips and was PTS. Lady breeding these dogs produced so many bad hips, she practically put herself out of business by having to produce replacement pups.

It was same behavior I have seen when people play with dogs with lasers. 

Lee


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

I'm curious to learn more about the issue in dogs that exhibit OCD behaviours without ever having been exposed to lasers. In those dogs, is it safe to assume that the behaviour is genetic?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I think it's a combination of genetics and nerves. This quote from healthypets.com is interesting
"Never getting to the point of actually catching their “prey” can drive a dog slightly nuts. The same principle applies with bomb or drug sniffing dogs, as well as search and rescue canines. Trainers of these dogs have learned there are psychological consequences when the animals don’t find what they’re looking for, so their handlers occasionally arrange for them to find a target as a way of keeping them emotionally balanced."


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have heard so many stories of dogs being put to down with laser light chasing or becoming so obsessed it severely hindered their way of life. I think it is good for people to be aware of this. I'm not on Facebook but sometimes posting articles if there are any may get through to people more as they are getting information now from a third uninvolved party it might sink in more. 
I heard in the 9/11 bombing -the tireless search and rescue dogs when the dogs did not recover any live people the dogs were getting severely depressed. The search and rescue workers had some people hide just so the dogs can find a live person and that brought the dogs spirits up.


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## JnK (Feb 21, 2017)

I'd be curious to follow this one. I had a doberman that was "OCD-ish" It made him very hard to deal with at times for sure. No so bad that he had to be put down, but so much so, that it took us a long time to consider getting another dog for fear of something similar. He had lots of health problems though so something tells me his issues were genetic. I swore to do more research into healthy breedings this time around. I feel for the dogs and owners who have true OCD animals.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> I see where many people think that Lasers lead to OCD behaviors in some dogs....is this genetic or environmental? Are nerves and balance factors? Or is it addictive?


I'm curious if breeding for dogs more similar to mals, is causing a lower threshold to OCD type behavior? Dogs that are so high strung it's all about management. 
As I delve deeper down the rabbit hole, I see more and more mentioning of behavior that is not gsd like. It really gets away from the balance and sound mind a gsd should have. 
Combined with dogs that are from bybs, a laser pointer could cause issues.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think there must be a genetic component to a propensity for OCD behavior. I never played with a laser pointer with my dog, but he became hyper-focused on pinecones because I would kick them as I walked for him to chase. When I saw that he was obsessing over it (staring fixedly at my feet at while I walked and honing in on pinecones in my path with a fixed stare), that was the last time I kicked--or allowed anyone else to kick--pinecones. Considering I live in the Piney Woods area of Texas, we have probably 6 or 8 mature pines in our yard ... lots of pinecones hehe. It didn't take long at all to break him of it, however, so it hadn't really gotten entrenched.


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## Nook&I (Jul 25, 2014)

When I lived in NYC while walking my GSD I met a women whose dog constantly chased his own shadow, She it started with a lazer pointer and then like that he started doing it with his shadow. It was actually really sad to see.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

A dog has to have a tendency toward OCD behavior for lasers to become a problem. It doesn't create an obsessive dog it's just an outlet that often reveals an obsessive dog.

To answer the question though, I believe that herding breeds have a tendency toward OCD behavior because of their energy and ability to focus, which is a desirable trait not from poor breeding. The dogs I meet who chase a laser pointer are usually herding or hunting dogs, and usually only the herders will obsess. These dogs are always looking for an outlet and the laser pointer is one.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Working with humans with OCD, I believe it can be a genetic predisposition leading to a chemical imbalance but it can also be a learned behavior to high stress situations where there is no healthy outlet. Finally I think the cause can be a genetically high energy person who has no outlet (think about pacing animals at the zoo). All slightly different all slightly related. So I would come down on yes, breeding is one culprit. Using a laser pointer when the dogs brain is developing would be a big culprit too. Talk about frustration with no outlet or end. Yikes.

Being a very high energy guy, my dutch did do some tail chasing in his adolescence. I would stop him and redirect and increase both physical and healthy mental stimulation. He is not OCD but I think he could certainly have developed it due to his need for mental and physical stimulation.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

JnK said:


> I'd be curious to follow this one. I had a doberman that was "OCD-ish" It made him very hard to deal with at times for sure. No so bad that he had to be put down, but so much so, that it took us a long time to consider getting another dog for fear of something similar. He had lots of health problems though so something tells me his issues were genetic. I swore to do more research into healthy breedings this time around. I feel for the dogs and owners who have true OCD animals.


many dobes are flank suckers, an obsessive soothing behaviour like thumb sucking .

I found it curious that Dobe's left with their natural tail tend to have less of this .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> I'm curious if breeding for dogs more similar to mals, is causing a lower threshold to OCD type behavior? Dogs that are so high strung it's all about management.
> As I delve deeper down the rabbit hole, I see more and more mentioning of behavior that is not gsd like. It really gets away from the balance and sound mind a gsd should have.
> Combined with dogs that are from bybs, a laser pointer could cause issues.


yes - but laser pointer obsessive behaviour is an actual change in the chemistry or wiring of the brain .
Lee said it correctly " that repetitive use of laser /chasing will actually damage synapses in the brain - short circuits so to speak."

Not genetic .

Another problem I find disconcerting is the effort that people make to keep their growing pups skinny . Not lean muscled . Not nourished with the extremely important brain feeding fats and oils for proper development . Adults also . I have had some diets passed in front of me that were obsessively focused on fat levels. Too low for good health.

There are critical periods for brain development throughout the fetal and neonatal stages.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Addictive behaviour -- forget where I was when I got into a conversation about dha and epa - with the person chiming in about the care of his relative who had addictive behaviour - specifically alcohol .
AA has surprisingly poor results . Years of "talk therapy" did little.

They went to an integrated health practitioner got onto a targeted nutritonal therapy plan and they no longer feel the need for drink.

there have been studies which suggest that phosphatidylserine synergistically with fish oil's epa and dha, 
and phosphatidylserine , both fatty - cholesterols - from egg yolk and lecithin affect brain and cell signalling ., can reduce ocd behavioiur --- dog and human


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In the past I had Whippets and (before I knew about the OCD-laser connection) they could care less about the laser after initially chasing it but not able to kill it. They flat out refused to chase it after that. Same with the initial disappointment when they learned that they couldn't catch a sea gull on the beach. 
It is interesting to me that (at least mine) Whippets were highly prey driven, yet smart enough to know the limits of the laser. Is it practical intelligence or breeding? They were rock solid in temperament (racing lines).
I never used the laser later as I thought it was a stupid, mind killing game, which I know now, it literally is.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Luna our pup had an interest in shadows a few weeks ago a very windy days casted many shadowy trees on our floor. I was able to call her off them but was concerned from all the laser light stories I heard. I did get a bunch of different nylabones for her to chew and keep busy with and was resolved.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> yes - but laser pointer obsessive behaviour is an actual change in the chemistry or wiring of the brain .
> Lee said it correctly " that repetitive use of laser /chasing will actually damage synapses in the brain - short circuits so to speak."
> 
> Not genetic .
> ...


You don't think that genetics can cause a dog to predisposed to OCD behaviors? I believe it could stem from both. As they are seeing in humans, a person can genetically be predisposed to addiction, could it be the same in dogs? Either thet are born with it or develop over time?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes - 
but laser pointer obsessive behaviour is an actual change in the chemistry or wiring of the brain


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

Laser pointers aside, I believe that there must a strong genetic component to OCD behaviours. My young male will pace obsessively in particular areas of the house and backyard. Sometimes it's just pacing; other times he'll be trying to "catch" bugs or dust in the sunlight. Other times, he will suck on his bed or a pillow as a form of self-soothing. 

Similar traits are showing up in a few dogs from the same breeding, which points again to genetics. That leads to the question: should dogs with these traits be bred or is it just something to consider when looking at the overall temperament of the dog?


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

OCD behavior can also occur in a bored dog, though, so take that into consideration. Herders are very intelligent dogs and when they don't get exercised physically and mentally they can start having obsessive behaviors. This is pretty common in dogs who live in kennels. Small space for an extended period of time can cause a dog to pace, jump, run back and forth pressing their paws on each side of the kennel, barking at nothing, licking the same spot (kennel wall or floor) for hours, some even shake their heads repeatedly. This is not uncommon in shelters. Having dealt with some of these dogs outside of the kennel I believe it's completely environmental and can be fixed with some good exercise and a larger living space.

I'd say it can be environmental or genetic, but part of it in my opinion is due to DESIRABLE traits in certain breeds.


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

Dracovich said:


> I'd say it can be environmental or genetic, but part of it in my opinion is due to DESIRABLE traits in certain breeds.


That's an interesting idea - that the desirable traits in a herding breed have a less desirable side to them, sort of like a mirror image. Maybe that means it comes down to genetic balance in the dog and, in some, things are tipped in a less favourable direction. Or it takes less stimulation to provoke OCD in some dogs compared to others of the same breed because the balance is off.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I've been told never to risk a laser pointer with my dog. I no longer use one with my cats either, so that the dog isn't exposed to it.

I thought half the people in the room were going to faint at training one night when a woman admitted to using one with her GSD. It was like a collective, "DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!"


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> I think there must be a genetic component to a propensity for OCD behavior. I never played with a laser pointer with my dog, but he became hyper-focused on pinecones because I would kick them as I walked for him to chase. When I saw that he was obsessing over it (staring fixedly at my feet at while I walked and honing in on pinecones in my path with a fixed stare), that was the last time I kicked--or allowed anyone else to kick--pinecones. Considering I live in the Piney Woods area of Texas, we have probably 6 or 8 mature pines in our yard ... lots of pinecones hehe. It didn't take long at all to break him of it, however, so it hadn't really gotten entrenched.



And I thought my pup was the only one who adored catching pine-cones. My big boy love catching leaves. It doesn't seem as much an obsession as it is a favorite game. Ignoring them for a few days / mulching up the leaves / taking long walks helps/ keep it in balance. My boy loves doing protection work and we haven't done any in a very long time. I suspect the leaf catching is an outlet for some of that drive. I actually have him do obedience drills to earn a leaf toss. Same with my gal's pine-cones.
With the hot weather, pine-cones and leaf tossing will fade and hose / water play will take it's place. They earn that by carrying my watering buckets back to the hose after I water my gardens. 

So is it OCD? Maybe not. More like their favorite game, like a child wanting to watch their favorite show over and over again. It is a happy place.
Laser pointers? won't take the risk anymore


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