# The Finnick Thread.



## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

He's here, he's here, he's here, he's finally here!!!
It was so worth the wait. What a lovely puppy. He's been on the road for days and nothing phases him. Home bound tomorrow!


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## RebGyp (May 24, 2006)

Congrats, what a cutie, enjoy.


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## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

YAY! (hands clapping) Congrats on that GORGEOUS puppy! Look forward to watching that sweet face grow up. :wub:


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Gosh, he's cute!
You know that once you are home and rested, we are going to want a lot more pictures of this guy!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Is this your first well-bred GSD?


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

awwww so adorable :3 grats


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Is this your first well-bred GSD?



I took in an 8 year old GSD this summer...So in my mind Finnick is truly my first GSD, first puppy, and first dog with a good solid genetic background.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> I took in an 8 year old GSD this summer...So in my mind Finnick is truly my first GSD, first puppy, and first dog with a good solid genetic background.


Awesome. 

Good luck with him, he's a cutie.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So happy for you! Enjoy !


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Wonderful for you. Your puppy is so cute. Enjoy every minute and take lots of pictures to share.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Awesome! Can't wait to see him grow up


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MyHans-someBoy said:


> Gosh, he's cute!
> You know that once you are home and rested, we are going to want a lot more pictures of this guy!


Yes! :laugh:


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Huge congrats to Lauren! This is a super puppy with rock solid temperament and gorgeous structure. I could tell early on that this little guy was special - he was the only sable male in the litter and was a looker from the start. 

I know Lauren has lots of big plans for him, and I know the two of them will have a wonderful journey together. Hopefully I can convince Lauren to show him once or twice  He will do super in the conformation and sport venues. Congrats again Lauren! Very happy for you and so excited to have Archer aka Finnick in such a super home!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

In honor of his very own thread, here is a birth to 8 weeks old progression of Archer von Nadar aka Finnick 

We had 8 in the litter: 4 black and reds - 4 sables - 5 boys and 3 girls - Archer was the only sable male. 

One day old

























5 days old

























2 weeks old (he was super sleepy in this photo set lol )

















3 weeks old right after a bath so he's a little wet still 









Enjoying his first "real" meal of ground turkey and goat's milk at 3.5 weeks old - he's the black collar on the right side









4 weeks old


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Cont...

5 weeks old

















Socializing with friends in big places at 6 weeks old :wub:









8 weeks old and right before he left to meet up with Lauren 











































Thanks for looking! Now it's Lauren's turn to keep the photos coming!


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## halifax (Jul 24, 2014)

He's adorable!


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

beautiful puppy, enjoy him! you will be very busy now, almost like having a toddler in the house, cant take your eyes off the little buggers


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cute pup but lauren, you're beautiful too))))) nice couple


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Super adorable! Congrats and good luck!


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Caught him sneaking a shoe in the middle of the night! Hehe
















Well that was fast!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Not crate training??


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

He's so cute!! Congratulations! I can't wait to see him grow up


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Not crate training??


I am. But I'd like to work with him in the crate rather than letting him suffer without the positive associations. I'm not a fan of the screaming puppy.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Not crate training??


Believe Lauren was staying the night at her sister's before heading back to her home. Don't think they had a crate there. 

The entire litter was started with crate training at 6 weeks old. Each pup is comfortable and used to the crate - we had very few accidents and by now (9 weeks), the pups are very reliable in the crate and can sleep through the night with no problem. Pups were started with potty training at 2.5 weeks and are extremely reliable by now. They signal to be let out and are very clean. In fact, we had two pups fly (one to Seattle from the east coast) and neither of them soiled their crates during their trips. 

I've had pups free roam the house for increasing amounts of time since they were 4 weeks old - by now they are aware of acceptable chewies and toys versus items to avoid. Of course the occasional shoe still gets attacked so we continue to exercise caution  

So yes - they are crate trained and will be used to it. But they will be able to quickly adapt to free roam as they were introduced early and are not destructive pups for the most part. Pups are still crated when alone of course


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

And Ash I know you worked with all of them and the crates. But you also know how he feels about being confined without his person lol!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Hahaha oh lord do I know all too well!! :crazy:

Finnick was our loudest and most vocal pup. He showed this trait from around 4 weeks old, and I have been giving Lauren a heads up regarding his vocal nature ever since! He is a super pup, but he is quite loud and loves to talk. If Finn is pissed, you will know for sure! He's also extremely handler oriented and wants to be with his person. If he knows you are out there, he wants to be with you. When nobody is around, he will settle and go to sleep - we set up webcams to confirm this  

I certainly don't blame Lauren for taking it slow with him and letting him get used to the crate while she's around on her own terms


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I was just asking because typically doing so creates the opposite response. They don't get over their crate problems when they're easily moldable little beings because they're glued to you (and good about not chewing things) and next thing you know you have an 11 month old who still can't settle down in the crate when you come home or crate in new areas. 

I don't know from experience or anything.  Just thought it was worth the mention. I can't imagine picking any puppy up and staying the night somewhere without a crate!  No puppy is perfect in or loves the crate at this age, it's all a part of training and experience.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Awwww. Puppy fever here!!! 

Love this pup! :wub:

Lauren will you be participating in IPO with him by chance?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I was just asking because typically doing so creates the opposite response. They don't get over their crate problems when they're easily moldable little beings because they're glued to you (and good about not chewing things) and next thing you know you have an 11 month old who still can't settle down in the crate when you come home or crate in new areas.
> 
> I don't know from experience or anything.  Just thought it was worth the mention. I can't imagine picking any puppy up and staying the night somewhere without a crate!  No puppy is perfect in or loves the crate at this age, it's all a part of training and experience.


Draven has never been crated at night time. I brought him home at 11 weeks and he slept in my bed with me up until he turned 6 months old. He never had a single accident in bed.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Draven has never been crated at night time. I brought him home at 11 weeks and he slept in my bed with me up until he turned 6 months old. He never had a single accident in bed.


I mistakenly did the same with Patton. But... Due to the anxiety prone GSD in him, when it came time to crate him it was much, much harder and louder than doing it from the get go. He still isn't great in a crate, and I've never had this problem with other dogs that I crate from the beginning.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I mistakenly did the same with Patton. But... Due to the anxiety prone GSD in him, when it came time to crate him it was much, much harder and louder than doing it from the get go. He still isn't great in a crate, and I've never had this problem with other dogs that I crate from the beginning.


The first night I brought Draven home he SCREAMED when I put him in the crate. It was AWFUL and I gave in after 10 minutes and let him sleep in bed with me, so he never slept in a crate at night. When he turned 6 months old I stopped letting him sleep in my bed and made him sleep on the dog bed with Sinister, I thought I would have problems with that but he never once tried getting back on the bed. He's never had a potty accident at night or chewed anything he shouldn't have (except he did chew my glasses twice but that was my fault for not putting them in their case.) He actually has ZERO problems going into the crate when you tell him to and he doesn't make a peep when he's in there but I only crate him while I am gone at work.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I plan to do as many dog sports as we can. With IPO being the one thing I'm on the fence about. He starts agility foundations on Sunday. And we will probably sign up for some puppy pre-k if for socialization reasons only.

Because of this he needs to be crate trained. At agility he will need to be crated while he waits his turn. But I'd rather train him with treats and games, rather than shoving him in there and letting him work it out himself. My last dog was very good in the crate, from go, but when we went to agility he didn't like being in the crate while he could see me...I'm really hoping to avoid that this time around.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I mistakenly did the same with Patton. But... Due to the anxiety prone GSD in him, when it came time to crate him it was much, much harder and louder than doing it from the get go. He still isn't great in a crate, and I've never had this problem with other dogs that I crate from the beginning.


I think this is a temperament issue with your dog rather than the method of going about crate training. Finnick was loud in the crate, but never anxious or destructive. He displayed no anxiety related issues like chewing, destructive behavior, banging around the crate, excessively scratching, excess panting, and so on. He is totally fine and settles perfectly in the crate if he knows you aren't around, but if he hears you moving around or sees you, he will ask loudly to be let out. He wants to be with you - this is separate from separation anxiety and nervous temperament which will manifest regardless of when and how you crate train. 

I've raised many puppies and the traits that contributed to stress free crate training were solid temperament, being raised in a clean environment, a good mother that taught proper foundation, and low separation anxiety.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

And this is day two with no crate at "night" and he really is very easy. Sleeps when I sleep. Up while I'm up.

Today we will start working the crate.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like he will be a busy and happy pup!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> I think this is a temperament issue with your dog rather than the method of going about crate training. Finnick was loud in the crate, but never anxious or destructive. He displayed no anxiety related issues like chewing, destructive behavior, banging around the crate, excessively scratching, excess panting, and so on. He is totally fine and settles perfectly in the crate if he knows you aren't around, but if he hears you moving around or sees you, he will ask loudly to be let out. He wants to be with you - this is separate from separation anxiety and nervous temperament which will manifest regardless of when and how you crate train.
> 
> I've raised many puppies and the traits that contributed to stress free crate training were solid temperament, being raised in a clean environment, a good mother that taught proper foundation, and low separation anxiety.


Well, since he has the best nerves of any dog I've raised, and he is the only one I crate trained differently, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. The "but if he hears you moving around or sees you, he will ask loudly to be let out" is exactly what Patton still does, at 11 mos. If I had trained differently/sooner, it wouldn't have been a problem. 

Just thought I'd bring it up in case OP didn't realize it. But breeder knows best.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Puppy was crated during the day at a young age. Despite not having the most solid temperament/socialization, this is one aspect that she has been exceptional in. 

She sleeps with me at night, and no longer gets crated at 3, But we frequently went on 3 hour car rides from the time she was 4 months old and she has been silent the entire ride since that age. 

In the beginning, I only crated after exercise and potty breaks. I would crate her and leave my room so that she can settle down alone. After she settled, I would go back in and do whatever I needed. I fed in the crate, gave valuable treats, and did a number of little games involving tossing treats in when Puppy went in voluntarily.

I made clear from day 1 that settling in containment is not negotiable.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I mistakenly did the same with Patton. But... *Due to the anxiety prone GSD in him*, when it came time to crate him it was much, much harder and louder than doing it from the get go. He still isn't great in a crate, and I've never had this problem with other dogs that I crate from the beginning.



DJEtzel: Only reason I even brought up nerves was due to your statement above. 

No - we don't have to worry about Lauren and Finnick. Learning to settle and being quiet in the crate while she is around will come in time with effort and repetition. They will figure out a routine and going about it using crate games is a super idea imo


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> He's here, he's here, he's here, he's finally here!!!
> It was so worth the wait. What a lovely puppy. He's been on the road for days and nothing phases him. Home bound tomorrow!
> 
> View attachment 242458


You look pretty happy with him, with that huge smile. Hope you enjoy everything you guys do.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> DJEtzel: Only reason I even brought up nerves was due to your statement above.
> 
> No - we don't have to worry about Lauren and Finnick. Learning to settle and being quiet in the crate while she is around will come in time with effort and repetition. They will figure out a routine and going about it using crate games is a super idea imo


My reference was to the fact that GSDs are whiny/loud dogs in general - signs of anxiety. Sorry that you misunderstood, but I can create my own opinions on who to be "worried" about, thanks. 

I won't share any more experience or information.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> My reference was to the fact that GSDs are whiny/loud dogs in general - signs of anxiety. Sorry that you misunderstood, but I can create my own opinions on who to be "worried" about, thanks.
> 
> I won't share any more experience or information.


I value everyone input. Please don't hesitate to share experience. 

He is being crated.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> My reference was to the fact that GSDs are whiny/loud dogs in general - signs of anxiety.


Loud and whiny is a breed trait?

If so, I don't have a very good representative.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

SO CUTE!!! I'm so happy for you-- that pup has the absolute best start ever!

My breeder, regardless of anything else about him, also is amazing at starting pups, and Rocket came to me with absolutely NO crate anxiety whatsoever. I quit using the crate at night when he was just 5 months old, because he preferred sleeping in the coldest spot in the house, which was down on the tile floor in my entry way-- dropped down a couple steps. Obviously the crate couldn't fit there.  He never had any trouble going in and out of it and I used it during the day until he was about 20 months old and then could be trusted. It's sitting downstairs and has been for almost a year and half years and every once in a very blue moon, I put him in it and go upstairs for awhile. Never a peep, he just settles right down and goes to sleep. I just like him to 'remember' it, but apparently, I don't ever have to worry about it. 

Enjoy your pup and keep up with the updates!! I'm jealous!


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

You have a gorgeous pup. More pics please.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

First time at the parkway..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Loud and whiny is a breed trait?
> 
> If so, I don't have a very good representative.



Me either. Seger is one and just started whining when I come thru the door out of EXCITEMENT to see me. Not anxiety. 

I have never rewarded the least little whine. If he even squeaked, I turned my back. When he was quiet I rewarded.

And both my GSDs, my weak nerved pound puppy and my well bred dog, settled easily in crates. Our Boxer frothed and broke teeth on the door.

OP - your puppy is gorgeous!!! It's going to be so cool to watch one of gbchottu's pups grow up!


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

Too Cute!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's been my experience too (as Ash mentioned) settling into a routine seems to be the biggest factor. Smitty being a rescue and older was more difficult but dogs we've had as puppies it didn't take too long.

Love the new pics!

Count me in the I'm jealous group too.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Jealous x4.



Gorgeous Pup! Lucky to have you as an owner too!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Loud and whiny is a breed trait?
> 
> If so, I don't have a very good representative.


LOL yes. Sounds like you got lucky! 

I know apartments that won't rent to GSDs because of their likelihood of being so vocal, the GSD scream is what drives most people I know from wanting a shepherd. 

I can always tell a GSD without seeing it by it's scream. I consider it anxiety based because they're anxious and excited to get out to do sports, see you, etc. Not sure why the terminology matters, I'm not talking about separation anxiety.

My whole point was that less experience in the crate when it's easy to teach them new things and for them to accept new things means less understanding in it and more interest in being out - excitement, whathaveyou.

eta; I've had IPO friends tell me there's basically no point in trying to fix it, they just use bark collars. *shrugs*


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Most of the time I would agree it's just semantics but it's not anxiety. It's excitement and drive. Huge difference. I think the terminology does matter in this case. Anxiety should not be a breed trait. Anxiety implies fearfulness and weak nerves. To phrase it as anxiety gives it a whole different meaning, and not a good one.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I consider it anxiety based because they're anxious and excited to get out to do sports, see you, etc. Not sure why the terminology matters, I'm not talking about separation anxiety.





> Anxiety implies fearfulness and weak nerves. To phrase it as anxiety gives it a whole different meaning, and not a good one.


i agree
anxiety is different than being excited

anxious is unable to settle and panting hard etc for instance when trying to excape the crate
also involves drooling from the stress

excited to play or work is another thing 
i would classify that as energy not anxiety


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Most of the time I would agree it's just semantics but it's not anxiety. It's excitement and drive. Huge difference. I think the terminology does matter in this case. *Anxiety should not be a breed trait*. Anxiety implies fearfulness and weak nerves. To phrase it as anxiety gives it a whole different meaning, and not a good one.


http://www.germanshepherddog.com/about/german-shepherd-dogs/breed-standards/
"Character

The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog."

The standard saying nothing about the GSD being a whiny and anxious dog. That has never been my experience with solid tempered and balanced GSDs. Too often people seem to mistake drive, leakiness, and vocalization as a breed trait because of sport and points - just because a GSD is a top IPO scoring dog doesn't make it a super representative of the breed. It just means the dog can score points out on the field. I breed for the whole dog - one that can settle in the house, have an on off switch, possess a clear head, be around children, compete in sport, perform multiple tasks, and possess balanced structure. Whiny and leaky is not something I ever encourage or breed for. For example - I have a very vocal and leaky female that was a breeding prospect at one time. But I have since washed her out even though she is a super dog and a man stopper on the field. She is a great dog and was bred by a program whose primary goal is over the top drive and power on the sport field, but her traits are not something I wish to incorporate or potentiate in my program. She is currently being sold for high sport and IPO. She excels in that venue, but will never be the "whole" dog I require in my program.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> She is a great dog and was bred by a program whose primary goal is over the top drive and power on the sport field,


i applaud your goals qbchottu

it is dogs like you describe that give gsds a bad name and make people say they should not be pets!

they are supposed to be an all around dog that can be a great household companion


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks my_boy_diesel. Not to say anything against this program or say my goals are better in any way. I just breed for something different: balanced and whole rather than focusing on one or two aspects of the breed and focusing on maximizing that one particular trait. 

Programs that aim for high drive and over the top dogs have a place - their dogs succeed out on the sport field and are capable of being great single purpose military or police dogs, but that is not my singular goal. 

I have pups in this litter that are higher drive and suited for sport, but none of them will be high V scoring dogs that compete in the nationals. That is perfectly fine with me as I breed for the total dog that can move seamlessly from the sport venue to the working venue to conformation to the home. I rather have a dog that can settle in the home, be around children, maintain a clear head, get SG to G scores in sport, and bring home a V show rating versus a dog that excels in one singular venue and does extremely well in that one particular situation while struggling to operate in day to day life situations. This is the problem with the female I washed out - she astounds and amazes out on the sport field with bone crushing bites, and powerful drive - but she cannot settle in the home properly and cannot be taken out to just any environment. She has a very focused purpose and so she will go to someone that wishes that from their dog - our program is not a singularly focused program and for that reason, she does not fit into our overall goals and plans.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Most of the time I would agree it's just semantics but it's not anxiety. It's excitement and drive. Huge difference. I think the terminology does matter in this case. Anxiety should not be a breed trait. Anxiety implies fearfulness and weak nerves. To phrase it as anxiety gives it a whole different meaning, and not a good one.


I guess I could have picked the wrong wording. I kind of attribute any vocalization as a type of anxiety, but maybe I should rethink that. 

My whole point was that putting off crate training is very likely going to make it harder later, which I found out the hard way. Just trying to save someone else the screaming when you get home.  Wasn't trying to put anyone or their dogs down.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I adore him, congratulations! You chose a fantastic breeder, too  Ash has so much knowledge and experience, and perhaps best of all, she is always willing to share and just chat. 

I can't wait to watch him grow!



DJEtzel said:


> I guess I could have picked the wrong wording. I kind of attribute any vocalization as a type of anxiety, but maybe I should rethink that.


Haha, you know I'm not here to pick on you, but definitely rethink that  I know all about that GSD screaming and the vocalizations, but it's not always anxiety. When we pull up at the beach and Trent starts screaming bloody murder and trying to run laps inside the car, he's not worried or nervous or uneasy. He's more along the lines of... _OMG LET ME GET AT THE BEACH NOW OH GOD LET ME AT IT AGHHH WHY AM I BEING CONTAINED?!?_ 

Poorly behaved, bratty, and acting like a turd? Yes. Result of me being a bad trainer and being okay with that behavior? lol Yep. 

Anxiety? Nope nope nope. Same goes for a lot of dogs that come within sight of their IPO club, or an agility event, etc. and start screaming. And dogs barking and whining and happy dancing and muzzle punching when their people get home (I'm not the only person with one of those, right?). Some dogs are just vocal and have a variety of ways to express themselves. 

You really do have to look at it within the context of the dog's body language, nerves, how he reacts when you remove certain variables from similar situations, and everything else you know about the dog and behavior in general. Trent is pretty displeased when I leave the house and will bark (I don't crate him anymore), but he stops within a minute, and by all appearances he just finds somewhere to sleep and wait for me until I'm home (which my roommate has confirmed). Even in a brand new house and city. Good nerves - terribly loud dog. But we love them.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Oh I know you're not trying to pick on me! Like I said, I could have it wrong and could have been a mis-comment on my part, but I always just went with -

Anxiety
2. earnest but tense desire; eagerness: 
"He had a keen anxiety to succeed in his work."

Tense desire/eagerness to do exactly like you are describing. GTFO of the crate to do the task at hand - see me, play disc, play agility, etc.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I think it's one of those things where the word has a different definition when you're trying to describe a dog's temperament (or a breed trait), rather than just using it in a sentence about the dog. For example, "that GSD's anxiety won't allow him to settle" vs. "oh he's really anxious to get out of his crate and go go go!". I totally get where you're coming from now, though.

Semantics  They're so much fun.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Rei said:


> Semantics  They're so much fun.


They get me into trouble. lol. Glad you get where I'm coming from though! haha


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> Due to the anxiety prone GSD in him


*anxiety prone gsd in him* 

is much different than 



> "oh he's really anxious to get out of his crate


:shrug:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> *anxiety prone gsd in him*
> 
> is much different than
> 
> ...


No it isn't. GSDs are in my interpretation of the definition (as just discussed), prone to anxiety. Anxiety to get out of the crate is what I was talking about here.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Isn't he cute!
































I somehow managed to delete some of my favorites, but these were pretty good.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

He is so freaking adorable!!!!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I wonder how this dog is doing.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

I would love to see some updates myself


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