# Kudos to Kira! It could have been ugly..



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Took Kira for a nice evening walk. Along the way, 2 pugs come running from the side of someone's house, barking, and looking for trouble. 
The dogs get to about 20 feet, and see Kira get into an aggressive stance, growling with hackles up. I immediately yelled " leave it", and she stopped, and just turned to look at me. The two pugs continued to pursue, and barked right under Kira's nose. Again, I reminded her "leeeave it", and she stood there like a statue until the owner came over and took her dogs.

Kudos to Kira!!!

That was a tragedy about to happen.



Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

That's wonderful. It's nice to see all your training does pay off. Hope her ear issue is a thing of the past.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Good Job...I'm sure you were a nervous wreck, but obviously that didn't come across in your leave it


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Good dog!

But what about her safety if the two little dogs had not stopped but just came coming and latched on to her? Even though small they could have certainly done some significant damage to Kira.

I am not sure what I would have told my dog if two small dogs came running at us off lead?

tough decision!

Glad it turned out well for both of you.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Good dog!
> 
> But what about her safety if the two little dogs had not stopped but just came coming and latched on to her? Even though small they could have certainly done some significant damage to Kira.
> 
> ...


Absolutely right. 
As they were running over, I said to myself " now what?
I felt that by taking the initiative and stopping Kira from lunging at them, and also keeping myself in between the dogs as much as possible, I avoided as much as I could. 
If the other dogs latched on to her, two things could have happened. Either Kira would've put her "leave it" aside and defended herself, or the dogs would've gotten it from me. 
.....

Having been down a similar road, I always carry a retractable baton with me. I found that there's always a chance of an encounter around here. I swore that the next dog that attempts to sink their teeth into her, will meet their maker. 

I no longer have patience for people that don't contain their dogs, and put others in harms way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good job Kira She coulda used those pugs for toothpicks


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Well done Anthony! It makes you proud when all of your training pays off ... too bad the pugs owners aren't quite so responsible!!! BUT, take the high road, and enjoy it!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Bigger man than I am...

I wouldn't tell my dog leave it if the dogs were that far away. I'd try to pull mine away but if they got close enough to him and actually lunged/attacked it would be very hard for me to get him off of anything. It's awesome that she listens to you like that though, that is a strange situation for her to be in...her pack is getting "attacked" and she's being told to not do anything.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't stop mine lol.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well Kira probably has a good enough head on her shoulders to recognize risk and intent. Dogs rushing up to you does not always equal aggression and does not always mean you or your dog have to use excessive force. While it is unpleasant and rude, a dog and owner who can appropriately manage the issue are nice to read about! 

I am not sure dogs who can't breathe, are orthopedically deformed, and whose eyes can pop from the socket are going to be the most tenacious aggressors either.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

from a different eye , Anthony do you see the level of Kira's arousal and discomfort -- "The dogs get to about 20 feet, and see Kira get into an aggressive stance, growling with hackles up." 20 feet away is a huge distance for her to be sent into the fear-zone . But never mind the dog -- she will be this way -- what is major in a good way is that YOU stepped up "I immediately yelled " leave it", and she stopped, and just turned to look at me" and provided direction , leadership that Kira needs. 
Pugs can't do much , bite or breath . Irresponsible of the owners to put their defenceless dogs at risk .

the only change I would have done is to pre-empt Kira's focus on dogs , that far away , told her LEAVE IT , the moment she looked , and kept on walking with her at heel.
She was allowed to see the dogs from 20 feet away and stay in the same spot for the dogs to be under her nose.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Well Kira probably has a good enough head on her shoulders to recognize risk and intent. Dogs rushing up to you does not always equal aggression and does not always mean you or your dog have to use excessive force. While it is unpleasant and rude, a dog and owner who can appropriately manage the issue are nice to read about!
> 
> I am not sure dogs who can't breathe, are orthopedically deformed, and whose eyes can pop from the socket are going to be the most tenacious aggressors either.


I agree, Jean.

I was honestly more concerned about the pug's safety, than Kira's. They were charging and barking, and as I said, "just looking for trouble". Im sure if they posed a real threat, there wouldn't have been much I could have done.

*martemchik*:
Keep in mind, Kira could be somewhat reactive. She's been attacked before, yet shows no sign of aggression, but will "puff up" more than I'd l like her to. 
I've used her "leave it" to effectively change her mindset to something more neutral. It's resulted in pleasant walks for her, and much more control for my wife. 

As always, if this is something I shouldn't be doing, feel free to chime in.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I agree with carmpsack in that idea of keep moving along - I know I will freeze up and stop because I don't want the dogs to chase (be a tree!) as we walk away, but you might have gotten away with it. I also agree the leave it and leadership made a huge difference to her, and I think that she still showed some good smarts/judgement in this situation. 

And yeah poor Pugs. It would be like thinking it was okay for a mewling kitten to give chase.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> from a different eye , Anthony do you see the level of Kira's arousal and discomfort -- "The dogs get to about 20 feet, and see Kira get into an aggressive stance, growling with hackles up." 20 feet away is a huge distance for her to be sent into the fear-zone . But never mind the dog -- she will be this way -- what is major in a good way is that YOU stepped up "I immediately yelled " leave it", and she stopped, and just turned to look at me" and provided direction , leadership that Kira needs.
> Pugs can't do much , bite or breath . Irresponsible of the owners to put their defenceless dogs at risk .
> 
> the only change I would have done is to pre-empt Kira's focus on dogs , that far away , told her LEAVE IT , the moment she looked , and kept on walking with her at heel.
> She was allowed to see the dogs from 20 feet away and stay in the same spot for the dogs to be under her nose.


Carmen,
You responded as I was replying to another.

Yes, 20 feet is close, I do agree. It was somewhat dark, and I'll honestly admit that my first thought was 2 pits charging. I didn't immediately get a good read on it.

I have to clarify something.

Are you saying that it's best to continue walking?
Would that have put us in a position for a blindsided attack?

In this case, it was pugs. What if it were a more potentially aggressive breed?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

No , 20 feet away is far far away . 
YOU keep calm and you keep control of the situation, the dog will pick up from you , which you see in some ways she did " and I'll honestly admit that my first thought was 2 pits charging. I didn't immediately get a good read on it."
Looks like you were afraid and focused on what might happen (just like the dog) -not without reason . At first hint of dogs yapping , a firm LEAVE it and then show the dog what will happen , (calmly keep on going for your walk) , not get stuck in what might happen - all the potential catastrophies.
You did good.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> No , 20 feet away is far far away .
> YOU keep calm and you keep control of the situation, the dog will pick up from you , which you see in some ways she did " and I'll honestly admit that my first thought was 2 pits charging. I didn't immediately get a good read on it."
> Looks like you were afraid and focused on what might happen (just like the dog) -not without reason . At first hint of dogs yapping , a firm LEAVE it and then show the dog what will happen , (calmly keep on going for your walk) , not get stuck in what might happen - all the potential catastrophies.
> You did good.


Oh, I see.

Hate to harp....
Assuming I kept walking...

But what if other dog(s) continue to pursue?

Yes, I do get anxiety over this. This issue in my neck of the woods, has become a concern on more than one occasion. More chance encounters, than I'd like.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I was kind of leaning towards 20 feet is kind of far. I know Kira is a bit reactive and so that's why its good that you said what you did.

Just my personal feelings on dogs off leash, without owners around, gets me to not really care how my dog handles that kind of situation. I know many people on here will protect their dog from an attack and risk their own life and limb over it but I wouldn't be able to. Again, we're speaking about two different temperaments. My dog thinks all dogs are his best friends until they're in his face and growling at which point he asserts his dominance (if I allow it).

I was just stating that you did something I probably wouldn't have ever done, at least not from 20 feet away so kudos to you. When I have been in situations where an off lead dog came at me and my dog, I usually say something at about 10 feet, when my boy is already at the end of the 6 foot leash and the other dog stops dead in its tracks 4 feet away from him after realizing what its running at. I got a bit tired of my apartment complex and little dog owners allowing their dogs to do this, so my opinion is a bit jaded...I'll try and prevent my boy from reacting but I also won't just make him sit there while an ankle biter is nipping at his neck. Thankfully pretty much all the dogs that have come running up to him looking "aggressive" were just bluffing and quieted down real quick as soon as they got up to us.

It is really nice that you can get her to concentrate on something else that quickly though. Like you stated, she's a bit reactive and so you don't like the attention she'll give to other dogs. Were there somethings that weren't good about her reaction? Sure...but I don't believe that puffing up and barking is the worst thing she could've done in this situation.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I was kind of leaning towards 20 feet is kind of far. I know Kira is a bit reactive and so that's why its good that you said what you did.
> 
> Just my personal feelings on dogs off leash, without owners around, gets me to not really care how my dog handles that kind of situation. I know many people on here will protect their dog from an attack and risk their own life and limb over it but I wouldn't be able to. Again, we're speaking about two different temperaments. My dog thinks all dogs are his best friends until they're in his face and growling at which point he asserts his dominance (if I allow it).
> 
> ...


I completely understand your position, and in most cases, I'd probably feel the same.
Kira is an amazing dog, but she DOES have issues, and would probably do very well in the hands of an experienced handler. She is fearful, and unless you have experience, it's very easy for an owner to not know the difference between a "fear bark", and a bark to be afraid of.

Carmen, (a while back) made a comment about Kira, saying that I should be concerned about Kira not being able to back up her actions. I now know what she meant. Kira will puff up, and do her best to scare you, but I'm 100% certain, that she wouldn't stand a chance in a dog fight. She will be seriously injured. I know she will.

If another dog doesn't buy her bluff, she's in big trouble. For that reason, I'm trying to neutralize her in the face of "_fear_". I would prefer nothing from her, rather than a reaction that could invite more aggression from another dog.

So... If I'm walking with her, and another dog approaches, I must take every measure possible to avoid a confrontation. Kira will not fight, nor submit. She goes into flight mode, and that's a big problem for both of us. 
Unless I got it all wrong, neutralizing her is the best way to handle this.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

You did a great job telling her to leave it and providing appropriate leadership. Whenever Hunter and I are charged by dogs, we keep moving forward and I provide obedience for Hunter to focus on. I always ask for focused heeling, and I will kick the other dog away while we move. /I/ deal with the other dog, Hunter's job is to focus on me and wait for any command. Hunter is 100% non-reactive to other dogs, so it's not hard for me... but in the end, Hunter will respond to an aggressive dog appropriately if he is attacked. It's my job to keep it from escalating to an attack. I manipulate my own dog so that he is not responding back, and focused on me, and therefore confusing the intentions of the other dog. The other dog wants to be unstable, reactive, aggressive to Hunter - Hunter is busy not reacting and focusing on me - if I can keep his focus, situation cannot escalate. Unless the dog full on charges and attacks Hunter. That is when I drop Hunter's leash, release him from heel, and we both attack the aggressor. (If Hunter was attacked/bitten/etc he would not follow my commands... that is nature, survival instinct - he will fight/defend me and himself) My job then is to grab the aggressor by the collar/neck and lift up, keeping head under control and away from Hunter until I can get my spare slip lead out and get control of the dog. 

Got on the elevator with Hunter the other day, a small dog charged on and bit Hunter in the face. Hunter did not even bite back, but obeyed my SIT! LEAVE IT! commands while I kicked the dog repeatedly until the owner pulled it back.

No matter what we do... irresponsible dog owners will always be there to mess everything up.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> You did a great job telling her to leave it and providing appropriate leadership. Whenever Hunter and I are charged by dogs, we keep moving forward and I provide obedience for Hunter to focus on. I always ask for focused heeling, and I will kick the other dog away while we move. /I/ deal with the other dog, Hunter's job is to focus on me and wait for any command. Hunter is 100% non-reactive to other dogs, so it's not hard for me... but in the end, Hunter will respond to an aggressive dog appropriately if he is attacked. It's my job to keep it from escalating to an attack. I manipulate my own dog so that he is not responding back, and focused on me, and therefore confusing the intentions of the other dog. The other dog wants to be unstable, reactive, aggressive to Hunter - Hunter is busy not reacting and focusing on me - if I can keep his focus, situation cannot escalate. Unless the dog full on charges and attacks Hunter. That is when I drop Hunter's leash, release him from heel, and we both attack the aggressor. (If Hunter was attacked/bitten/etc he would not follow my commands... that is nature, survival instinct - he will fight/defend me and himself) My job then is to grab the aggressor by the collar/neck and lift up, keeping head under control and away from Hunter until I can get my spare slip lead out and get control of the dog.
> 
> Got on the elevator with Hunter the other day, a small dog charged on and bit Hunter in the face. Hunter did not even bite back, but obeyed my SIT! LEAVE IT! commands while I kicked the dog repeatedly until the owner pulled it back.
> 
> No matter what we do... irresponsible dog owners will always be there to mess everything up.


Very descriptive, and spot on. Focus is key. I'll continue to work on it.

Thanks for writing this.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree 110% with Wild Wolf --- I road work my dogs , running beside my bike on my rural roads and many a dog does the long run down a driveway to bark at us . One time a dog did a bit more , actually came out onto the road and made it clear it was targeting my dog aggressively. This could be bad . I could have been knocked off the bike and then been in the middle of some great heated battle , so , my dog "leaving it" under control on lead , I jumped off the bike and use the bike as a barrier , bumping the aggressive dog if it got close , turning around keeping an eye on it the whole time. Of course yelling "come and get your dog " as loud and as often as I could till finally the guy comes out of his house , realizes the chain has broken and tries to get his dog which has zero obedience, finally grabs the end of the chain dragging , comes up close to grab the collar and then his dog , surprised, gives him a quick nip. We continue as if nothing happened.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wild Wolf said:


> You did a great job telling her to leave it and providing appropriate leadership. Whenever Hunter and I are charged by dogs, we keep moving forward and I provide obedience for Hunter to focus on. I always ask for focused heeling, and I will kick the other dog away while we move. /I/ deal with the other dog, Hunter's job is to focus on me and wait for any command. Hunter is 100% non-reactive to other dogs, so it's not hard for me... but in the end, Hunter will respond to an aggressive dog appropriately if he is attacked. It's my job to keep it from escalating to an attack. I manipulate my own dog so that he is not responding back, and focused on me, and therefore confusing the intentions of the other dog. The other dog wants to be unstable, reactive, aggressive to Hunter - Hunter is busy not reacting and focusing on me - if I can keep his focus, situation cannot escalate. Unless the dog full on charges and attacks Hunter. That is when I drop Hunter's leash, release him from heel, and we both attack the aggressor. (If Hunter was attacked/bitten/etc he would not follow my commands... that is nature, survival instinct - he will fight/defend me and himself) *My job then is to grab the aggressor by the collar/neck and lift up,* keeping head under control and away from Hunter until I can get my spare slip lead out and get control of the dog.
> 
> Got on the elevator with Hunter the other day, a small dog charged on and bit Hunter in the face. Hunter did not even bite back, but obeyed my SIT! LEAVE IT! commands while I kicked the dog repeatedly until the owner pulled it back.
> 
> No matter what we do... irresponsible dog owners will always be there to mess everything up.


 
Ever have to do this - grab a strange, aggressive dog by the neck and lift up?

Sounds like a great way to get seriously bitten in the hands, arms and maybe face!

just curious?

BTW, your dog got bit in the face and didn't even try to defend himself? 

Don't think my dog would have been quite so mellow! (Nor would i want him to be of course)


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

*My job then is to grab the aggressor by the collar/neck and lift up,* keeping head under control and away from Hunter until I can get my spare slip lead out and get control of the dog. 


oh never -- keep the distance as best as you can -- CONTROL your own dog -- try to scare the other dog with voice and intention 

and I would never drop the leash of my own dog -- then you loose control , and should it come down to charges and court for damages then you can prove that your dog was properly (legally) leashed and under your control - the fault lies with the loose dog.

the only time I would drop a leash is if the other dog does engage and I risk being seriously harmed by being in the middle . It has happened . A friend of mine , with MS by the way , got in the middle of a fight with an Akita that ran out onto the road and started a fight with her GSD . She had her calf muscle ripped and was hospitalized for a long time with lots of complications because of the MS .


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Carmen -- I just do what works for me. Haha.

I have lifted many dogs up by the neck and thrown them backwards during a fight. I spent many years working with shelter dogs and years working in a dog boarding kennel where I supervised socialization and play between strange groups of dogs for hours on end. I broke up countless fights. I've been bitten a few times, been hurt, but I really don't care. I just use the method that works best for me.

Hunter didn't get a chance to defend himself from the dog. I kicked it away immediately, blocked Hunter in the corner of the elevator and kept the dog away while telling Hunter to leave it. It lasted less than a minute. I know my dog will be blamed and targeted if he puts his teeth on any dog, and I will do whatever it takes to prevent that. Hunter has had a lot of safe exposure to unstable dogs, on purpose, and those same exposure taught him that I will deal with it, not him.

Please lets not focus on me and what I do to break up dog fights... just sharing my experience with Anthony and what works best for me.

Everyone seems to agree that YOU need to control the situation and your dog and not panic/have anxiety. Keep moving, keep control, KEEP CALM!!...


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Also, agree with Carmen very much and how she suggests handling it/how she explains it. That is the safest, most effective method.

When it comes to protecting my dog, I am a little blind. I'll admit that. I have always been happy to put myself in danger to protect Hunter, or even break up dog fights throughout my life. Don't be as ballsy as I am... I just do what comes naturally to me. Being bitten doesn't bother me... I have been bitten so many times. Instability, aggression, etc doesn't scare me - been exposed my whole life. I've worked with so many dogs, seen so much poor temperament. I will probably get myself badly hurt someday. I know that. I had a big bruise on my leg on my wedding day that showed in my pictures, all because my fear gets turned off during a dog fight. I just react. Not safe. I realize that every time someone calls me out on it, but I can't change it. I don't want to see dogs hurt, so I put myself in danger. It's unsafe, but it's how I roll.

Anthony, be safe. Take everyone's advice here on how to deal with it. 

Hunter has been SAFELY exposed to many, many dogs. A combination of genetics and my effort and socialization result in him not reacting to reactive dogs. I literally worked him in obedience every time a dog reacted to him, calm praise for focus on me, etc. Calm praise for being calm in the face of instability. Hunter is calm and clear headed in the face of a threat, he knows he doesn't have to react because I am the unstable one with low threshold and I will protect him at all costs. He has never had bad experiences. That little dog was the first time he got bitten by another dog, ever, and I am proud of his reaction. 

I got lucky, Hunter is an easy dog. No reactivity, solid nerves, etc. 

I have great respect for those who TRY and WORK HARD to work with dogs that aren't so easy. That is what matters, Anthony. You are TRYING and your dog isn't easy. So, big respect to you. Big respect to you for coming on here, sharing your experiences as ugly as they could be, and taking advice. Even if things aren't perfect (NO DOG IS PERFECT, PERFECTION DOESN'T EXIST)... you are giving it your best.

Sorry for ranting.. uhg. I try not too but can't stop sharing my thoughts. LOL.

EDIT:

Carmen -- you are very right about the leash issue for legal matters... I won't drop leash if it ever comes to that. Thanks for bringing that up! 



> and I would never drop the leash of my own dog -- then you loose control , and should it come down to charges and court for damages then you can prove that your dog was properly (legally) leashed and under your control - the fault lies with the loose dog.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I had an dog aggressive dog go for my Gsd at agility...I seen the dog coming and swung mine around and blocked her. Luckily the owner got her in time, my dog didn't even know what just happened. All I know is that dog was not getting my dog.


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am not sure dogs who can't breathe, are orthopedically deformed, and whose eyes can pop from the socket are going to be the most tenacious aggressors either.


:rofl: Having a Pug, I find this accurate and hysterical!! Grim can only grab her by the cheek, tail, and legs. Her back is too wide and her neck is too. If any dog was going to rush Kira, this is a good one to do it! The training you've done with her is impressive!! I agree totally on carrying a stick, too!


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I had an dog aggressive dog go for my Gsd at agility...I seen the dog coming and swung mine around and blocked her. Luckily the owner got her in time, my dog didn't even know what just happened. All I know is that dog was not getting my dog.


Lucky and good move!


I can not concieve of an instance with my dog with me and me noticing a dog (or person) coming at us aggressively and him not seeing it and reacting as soon or before I could.

Just the nature and personality of the breed (or individual dog, perhaps!).


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

carmspack said:


> *My job then is to grab the aggressor by the collar/neck and lift up,* keeping head under control and away from Hunter until I can get my spare slip lead out and get control of the dog.
> 
> 
> oh never -- keep the distance as best as you can -- CONTROL your own dog -- try to scare the other dog with voice and intention
> ...


Yes this! The one time I ever dropped a leash on my dog was when I had 2 GSD's and got stuck in the middle of them and 2 other dogs coming at us. They had jumped a fence and charged across the street. I had intended to continue walking after I told mine to leave it (which they did) but the dogs kept coming and the attack on my dogs was imminent. I got mine behind me and was going to fcae the dogs but got tangled in 2 leashes. I downed my dogs to keep them from tangling further. 

Thankfully a neighbor saw all of this and came out with shovel anf helped me thwart the other dogs. 

Generally, I try to act like 'no big deal'. Tell mine to leave it and continue to maove forward or retreat if I need to, but keep moving so they do not fixate.


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Kudos to Kira but kudos to you too! 

Lately we have been charged at by numerous dogs....I am sick of it. I have been working so hard to get Stella's reactivity under control and these stupid encounters set us back. I use the leave it command too. It works until another dog gets too close. We were almost at the point of being able to just walk by another dog.....and then thank you very much for the loose charging dogs....ugh...


----------

