# 3yr old exibiting aggression



## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

I have a 3yr old spayed GSD who is now exibiting agression towards our other dog. They have lived together since 7/12. My smaller dog is a 26lb male neutered Mountain Feist. My GSD is now going after my smaller dog. Bitting him on the neck and occassionally pinning him. Her obedience is basic at best but she does listen. She is my boyfriends dog and he has had her since she was a few months old. The feist is 8yrs old and I adopted him 4yr ago. from the pound. 

Any help would be great.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Without knowing more details as to the specific interactions, I can offer a few general suggestions. Ramp up the obedience training, for sure. She doesn't need to know anything fancy, it's just about making her work and making her think. Practice NILIF. A bored dog is an insecure one, which can cause confusion as to where her "place" is. 

Your description is pretty vague-- can you offer some more detail? Are there resources (food, toys, etc) involved when this happens? What are both dogs doing in terms of body posture, growling, etc?


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

The first incident of pinning I was not home for. I was told that Colby (Feist) was standing at the door to go inside and Sam (GSD) was in a playful mood and then she turned aggressive. 2 attacks were when the dogs were in a excited state - no toys or food. And last night was completely random and unprovoked - no food, toys, body postures were calm.. Colby walked by and she went straight for his neck. 


I have already started working on obedience training for both dogs.. Colby could always use a refresher. Food bowls are now placed in seperate rooms, they never had a problem with that until Sam started to become aggresive.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Attacks ? Does that mean there was blood ?
GSDs have a very rough play style.. are you sure they weren't just playing ?


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

Thankfully no blood but we were always present. And yes I would classify them as an attack. Sam is very rough while playing but she reminds me of a big puppy... happy, bouncy, running, bulldozing and occasionally nipping at other dogs heels... She is going directly for the neck and her demeanor changes completely.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Ok so one of the incidents was when the dogs were waiting by the door to come inside?

Sam could have been guarding the doorway, as a resource. My friend has a shepherd that does it, bit me right in the knee and I slammed her face in the door (she was going after my dog and I tried to bodyblock). I would put a leash on Sam and watch for those little 'changes' you mentioned and immediately redirect her. Have her do puppy push ups or crate / separate.


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

No, Colby the feist was waiting to come in and Sam wanted to play. My boyfriend stated from what he saw (he was out shoveling snow since we have to do that every other week here in MI right now) that Colby was ignoring her attempts at play and when she finally had enough she grabbed him by the back of the neck and pinned him.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ColbysMom said:


> Thankfully no blood but we were always present. And yes I would classify them as an attack. Sam is very rough while playing but she reminds me of a big puppy... happy, bouncy, running, bulldozing and occasionally nipping at other dogs heels... She is going directly for the neck and her demeanor changes completely.


 
One thing to note, I think, if you have ever saw a serious dog attack - esp. with one a large dog like a GSD and the other a small dog is that rarely will you ever be lucky enough to see onewithout blood.

Seems like there must have been at least a degree of bite inhibition involved. Which of course is great5 news for you.

I would suggest that you closely watch their behavior prior to any attack (as it sounds like you have been) because anyone (a pro!) who can help will need as much info on this as possible. there ia *always* some body language before a dog attacks (can be VERY small and subtle however).

This knowledge will be needed to be able to address the problem.

In the meantime, I would suggest that you reintroduce yourself to the GSD as "The Boss" and that he can do nothing without your ok. Both OB stuff and just general behavior.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

There would also be a consideration of how hard it was to break it up - did you physically have to intervene or a verbal command? That would also be a hint as to how to classify whether it was an attack or just too rough play!


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

Each time we have had to physically separate them... This was not play. Yes, she has shown restraint by not drawing blood but each altercation is getting more and more severe. 

Again, I cannot stress that this was not play in any shape or form.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

ColbysMom said:


> I have a 3yr old spayed GSD who is now exibiting agression towards our other dog. They have lived together since 7/12. My smaller dog is a 26lb male neutered Mountain Feist. My GSD is now going after my smaller dog. Bitting him on the neck and occassionally pinning him. Her obedience is basic at best but she does listen. She is my boyfriends dog and he has had her since she was a few months old. The feist is 8yrs old and I adopted him 4yr ago. from the pound.
> 
> Any help would be great.


Pinning can be a display of dominance, perhaps there's a high value item in the area or the little guy is vying for top spot. Either way you should not tolerate any forms of dominant behavior in the home. You are top dog, you decide who gets what, who gets disciplined, who eats what etc etc. I would implement NILF with both dogs. and crate both when you are away. I would also put an E Collar on the female and Stim to any form of dominant/aggressive behavior. She will get it pretty quick.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

From what you describe, it sounds like 'bullying' behavior, very stressful for the targeted dog. More on it: Is Your Dog a "Bully"? - Whole Dog Journal Article
Further reading would be Jean Donaldson's "Fight", she has a section on the behavior. Advanced reading is Brenda Aloff's classic 'Aggression' book.

You know that it is not play, and I like how you trust your observation. You are right to be concerned, and I hope your BF is as well.

The author of the WDJ article describes how to intervene. It takes keen observation, speed, an in charge and no-nonsense attitude, and consistency among all family members. It is absolutely crucial that the bullying dog does not ever get a chance to practice he behavior because it is intensely self-rewarding. I'd leash the GSD to myself in the house to be able to work on it instantly and to keep her from practicing the behavior. During the times leashing her to a human is not possible, keep the two dogs separate.

It is crucial as well to work on the GSD's level of arousal beyond the bullying context. That is foundational to most behavior issues including and especially bullying. The work goes beyond obedience as in teaching a sit or down. There are many exercises to do that: Leave it, down stay, wait to get xyz (such as walking out of the door, out of the car, out of the crate) until you show calm behavior, even a trick like teaching her to balance a cookie on her nose and not getting it until permitted. Does she excitedly pull on the leash when she sees a squirrel or another dog? Turn around, walk away from the stimulus. Work just below threshold for excitement, if the dog is over aroused already she cannot learn.

You can get a handle on it by teaching the dog to regulate her own arousal and by intervening as described. By contrast, framing it as a 'dominance' issue is not helpful at all.

The worst thing to do would be getting an e-collar and zapping the dog as mentioned in one post. The dog would associate the painful correction with the other dog and it would escalate the aggression. The dog does not associate the pain with the bullying behavior she is doing at the time of he zap. 

Instead, as described in the article, the consequence of her approaching the other dog with the intent of bullying (again, make sure she doesn't get to display the whole behavior) is getting removed from the situation and associating it with a specific verbal cue (such as 'too bad', 'knock it off') as an antecedent to getting removed. 

An option is also to consult a good behaviorist (working with positive methods), always pays off. 

I so support you in insisting that the behavior is not ok and by standing by your smaller dog. And taking it from there to intervene and end the behavior. It takes effort, time, and commitment by all members of the family to succeed. Bon courage!


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

Thank you so much "RunShepherdRun" you have provided some wonderful help! I never considered zapping or the e-collar so there was never a concern there. I will definitely be reading that article and taking what you say into great consideration. Both my BF and I are on the same page as we both love our dogs and want to do what is best for them. We have not allowed them to play together out in the yard but to allow them outside together while being monitored. When either dog has "a moment" he/she is instantly removed and placed in their kennel till they return to calm state. I know it will take sometime but it is so worth it. I have been working on her obedience but I am noticing how difficult it is since for 3 years she had the run of this house with no training. She is a dog who is easily distracted and becomes very hyper when she becomes excited. It will be hard but worth my time.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

RunShepherdRun said:


> From what you describe, it sounds like 'bullying' behavior, very stressful for the targeted dog. More on it: Is Your Dog a "Bully"? - Whole Dog Journal Article
> Further reading would be Jean Donaldson's "Fight", she has a section on the behavior. Advanced reading is Brenda Aloff's classic 'Aggression' book.
> 
> You know that it is not play, and I like how you trust your observation. You are right to be concerned, and I hope your BF is as well.
> ...


Its good you love your dog using posative or negative methods does not dictate how much love you have for them. A loving owner wants their dogs to live happy full lives in peace with one another experiencing all the world has to offer. Sometimes that involves discipline. 
There is more then one kind of method to achieve the same result, in my experience negative behaviors caused by rank drive or more easily dealt with using corrections and yes taking a dominant role in the situation. I wont bother putting down posative methods because if applied properly they can work in certain situations. Some behavior patterns are best corrected with negative reenforcement some with posative. 
Either I am curious to see how the above mentioned method works. Please let us know how things progress. IMO taking a firm hand with the female would resolve this issue in a week, time outs generally dont solve the problem just delay it. Either way good luck.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Some behavior patterns are best corrected with negative reenforcement some with posative.
> Either I am curious to see how the above mentioned method works. Please let us know how things progress. IMO taking a firm hand with the female would resolve this issue in a week, time outs generally dont solve the problem just delay it. Either way good luck.


You do realize that prongs and e-collars are positive (adding) punishment not negative (taking away) reinforcement right?

RunSheperdRun's post was excellent.


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

Prong collars will not be used. End of discussion. You have a right to your opinion but I refuse to use them.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

ColbysMom said:


> Prong collars will not be used. End of discussion. You have a right to your opinion but I refuse to use them.


I never mentioned anything about prongs.. As I already said good luck let us know what happens I am very curious to see what happens with this proposed approach. 

Yes raven I am aware of the terminology Posative punishment, negative punishment, extinction, negative reinforcment, operant conditioning..done the readings too .

I simply use the term negative reinforcement because most people equate E Collars, prongs and corrections to that term however inaccurate that may be. 
Though you can use an E Collar to apply Neg Reinforcement...not that that was what I was suggesting in this instance.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ColbysMom said:


> Prong collars will not be used. End of discussion. You have a right to your opinion but I refuse to use them.


And you to yours! NASTY prong collars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> You do realize that prongs and e-collars are positive (adding) punishment not negative (taking away) reinforcement right?
> 
> RunSheperdRun's post was excellent.


 
Terminology is so critical to effective dog training!



I wonder what taking away bad behavior is called?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ColbysMom said:


> Thank you so much "RunShepherdRun" you have provided some wonderful help! I never considered zapping or the e-collar so there was never a concern there. I will definitely be reading that article and taking what you say into great consideration. Both my BF and I are on the same page as we both love our dogs and want to do what is best for them. We have not allowed them to play together out in the yard but to allow them outside together while being monitored. When either dog has "a moment" he/she is *instantly removed and placed in their kennel till they return to calm state. I know it will take sometime but it is so worth it.* I have been working on her obedience but I am noticing how difficult it is since for 3 years she had the run of this house with no training. She is a dog who is easily distracted and becomes very hyper when she becomes excited. It will be hard but worth my time.


 
Yes, "Time Out" for a dog should work as well as for a 2 year old child! 

This approach to unacceptable behavior gives each a great opportunity to think about their bad behavior and what they can do in the future to avoid such behavior!

And they both will realize just from the time out what behavior they did that is not acceptable with no one having to apply any correction(or punishment!) to tell them that!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol, what this approach misses IMO is that the dog knows to go into a calm state while in the kennel. What the dog needs to learn is achieving a calm submissive state around the other dog. This cant really be done with treats therefore your left with pulling the dog away and kennelling. Im fairly certain this will increase the frustration of the dog in question, but like I said I eagerly await the results of this approach. Its always shocking to me what people will go through to simply avoid correcting the bad behavior. To each their own I guess.. As far as Im concerned the most important part of the process is the RESULT.


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

FOR THE LOVE!!!
This is my dog ... I will not use a prong collar on her and let's just leave it at that! No more bickering back and forth over your views vs. the other persons views. 

UPDATE
Over the last few days she has been working on basic obedience. When her mood shifts she is asked to lay down by verbal command and given a moment. She is not removed from the situation but left to relax where the moment started. My smaller dog has also been monitored as well since he has become more responsive to her mood changes and has been reactive as well. They have been working on the obedience training together and separately as well as going on two joint walks a day.


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## ColbysMom (Feb 21, 2013)

AND JUST TO BE CLEAR... 
I'm not following any specific method. Just obedience, Asserting my dominance, positive reinforcement and corrections when wrong. No prong collars, e-collars, training collars etc.... 
... I just wanted some insight into the world of German Shepherds. I have only been around this dog for a year and have not grown up with the breed. At best I can only go off what I know of her and her personality, learn about the breed and go from there. I did not grow up with the breed and only wanted some more background information and positive help towards correcting the issue at hand.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Terminology is so critical to effective dog training!




Clearly explaining yourself so that people know what you are talking about certainly is. Incorrect use of terms based on what you "think" others believe does no one any good.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Clearly explaining yourself so that people know what you are talking about certainly is. Incorrect use of terms based on what you "think" others believe does no one any good.


Absolutely correct! 

Now, could you practice what you preach?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Feel free to PM if you have something that I posted and you don't understand. I'd be glad to spell it out for you.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol because most people that come on this forum and board looking for help understand what you mean by posative punishment..? 

ColbysMom:
No one is bickering with you, feel free to do what you like. This however is a discussion board and people are free to discuss and opine on any topic that is brought up. Many people on here are opinionated and have divergent view points..welcome to internet forums. 
As for your obvious disdain for the various training tools you mentioned, they are just that, tools. Many on here have used those tools effectively and successfully for many years. There is nothing wrong with their use if applied properly and can greatly ease the training process. Its your decision whether you choose to use one or not, however being dismissive towards them can potentially limit you down the road depending on what training goals you develop or behavior problems you end up combatting.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Not to worry Blitz. If she puts as much effort into controlling her dog as as trying to control a thread on an internet forum, the dog should be fine.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Feel free to PM if you have something that I posted and *you don't understand*. I'd be glad to spell it out for you.


 
Heh! Heh!

Thanks, 
I'll remember!


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Blitz, for my own curiosity, could you please tell me how the dog would know what they are being stimmed for ?
I've been under the assumption that dogs can't think, uhm, 'outside of the box'.
That if they get stimmed (or feel displeasure / pain) then it is associated with what is happening at that present time. Which might be them looking at the other dog. So to the dog's mind.. that other dog brought them discomfort. Which could provoke another attack or make things tense between the two.

Is that wrong ? How do you get the correct timing ? How do you know the exact effects the stim has ?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

You said it's hard to work on obedience because the dog is 'hyper'. How much exercise is the GSD getting?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> Blitz, for my own curiosity, could you please tell me how the dog would know what they are being stimmed for ?
> I've been under the assumption that dogs can't think, uhm, 'outside of the box'.
> That if they get stimmed (or feel displeasure / pain) then it is associated with what is happening at that present time. Which might be them looking at the other dog. So to the dog's mind.. that other dog brought them discomfort. Which could provoke another attack or make things tense between the two.
> 
> Is that wrong ? How do you get the correct timing ? How do you know the exact effects the stim has ?


Its quite simple, most dogs work up to their negative reaction. Hackles, staring, growling, barking then the lunge. In this circumstance the dog lives with the other dog in question she looks at him all the time, its when she goes after him you have the issue. If you know what to look for you can tell what state of mind your dog is appoaching another dog in. If she is posturing you stim. If she lunges you stim. You are looking to extinguish this behavior so you are stimming at higher level then if you were merely proofing commands. In this case since its in the home I would also pair the stim with a verbal correction. She will quickly learn that the consequence for her behavior recieves an intensly uncomfortable feeling. Im guessing that if this is done properly the aggressor will cease the behavior in a couple of days. Also, since you have paired the verbal correction with the stim any future indiscressions will only require the verbal correction which should cause the dog to immidiately cease the behavior. Most importantly after incidents the dog should not be removed but allowed to remain in the room. Therefore she learns being around the other dog is ok its when I attack him or attempt to intimidate him that consequences occur.

I have done this with a highly DA dog at a local dog park. She would go after any dog that tried to smell her, approach her, run by her etc. She was collar conditioned first and taken to the park on numerous occassions. Any attempt to charge another dog was stimmed, any posturing up to another dog was stimmed, any time play turned to intense ex:growling biting a stim was issued. Stims were continuous until she broke off the behavior then ceased immidiately. 

She now can now go to the local dog park and have 0 incidents. She still wears the E Collar for the safety of other dogs but plays happily with them all day.
The E Collar was used to punish her for going over her threshold or even approaching it. She quickly understood, play was allowed, running was allowed, sniffing was allowed, but aggression of any kind recieved punishment. 
After incidents she was not pulled away from the situation she was allowed to try again and she would often do so. Thus she quickly understood how things worked.


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