# So my "soil" is wrong?



## GSD Fan

What I mean by soil is:

Example: Let's say you're building a house. In order to build a house, you have to find a place to build the house. The place you build the house on is the soil or ground. 

So what I'm trying to say is, when it comes to breeding, is my "soil" really wrong?

I'm bringing this up because someone told me that you fall in love with a breed and want to improve the breed, so you become a breeder.

You don't fall in love with dogs, love many breeds, and pick one or two breeds to improve. 

The statements above are what I was told by a fellow dog ethusianist. 

I like and love a lot of breeds. What I don't understand is, so breeders who breed more than one breed are really BYBs?

I'm so confused.  I see nothing wrong with loving dogs and loving more than one breed. 

The reason that person said that is because I considered breeding other breeds. The first breed I wanted to breed was the German Shepherd, then I wanted to breed Golden Retrievers, and now I'd really love to become a breeder of siberian huskies.

I love all three breeds. I don't want to start a kennel and breed all three, however, but what's wrong with loving other breeds?

I know I would like to become a breeder because I love dogs and would like to help improve the quality of dogs. Also because of all the things that come with being a breeder, even the negatives aren't bad compared to the good stuff.


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## Jax's Mom

They can call you purple with pink polka dots until you have the titles to back you up. 
There's no law against what you intend to do. 
I've spoken to many reputable breeders and most of them had so much advice and encouragement to give me, they didn't have time to say anything negative. Those are the type of people I tend to take advice from, not the ones that have all the time in the world to put me down.


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## Elaine

There is nothing wrong with liking more than one breed, but it's almost impossible to be knowledgeable enough in multiple breeds to really raise yourself above the level of BYB. You would have to know the breed well, the lines, be able to train and compete successfully, and then have the money to afford dogs that are quality titled dogs and worth breeding. 

About the only people that do seem to be able to do this is when the breeds are very similar, like breeding deerhounds and borzoi in the same kennel. The types, sports, and breed ring are very similar.


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## GSD Fan

Jax's Mom said:


> They can call you purple with pink polka dots until you have the titles to back you up.
> There's no law against what you intend to do.
> I've spoken to many reputable breeders and most of them had so much advice and encouragement to give me, they didn't have time to say anything negative. Those are the type of people I tend to take advice from, not the ones that have all the time in the world to put me down.


Um, thank you.

If I become a breeder, I just want to do it right. I don't want to be a BYB not because people would look down on me, but because doing it right helps dogs in general and it decreases the chances of the dogs I produce ending up in a shelter.


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## jakeandrenee

I am confused, do you have a GSD?


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## GSD Fan

Elaine said:


> There is nothing wrong with liking more than one breed, but it's almost impossible to be knowledgeable enough in multiple breeds to really raise yourself above the level of BYB. You would have to know the breed well, the lines, be able to train and compete successfully, and then have the money to afford dogs that are quality titled dogs and worth breeding.
> 
> About the only people that do seem to be able to do this is when the breeds are very similar, like breeding deerhounds and borzoi in the same kennel. The types, sports, and breed ring are very similar.


I wasn't really planning on breeding more than one breed, rather I was looking at the breed I love the most.

About that last part,
what about a breeder who breeds Irish Setters AND Golden Retrievers? Or a breeder who breeds Rotties and GSDs? Those two examples are a lot alike, right?


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## GSD Fan

jakeandrenee said:


> I am confused, do you have a GSD?


No, I don't have a GSD. What's that got to do with this?


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## selzer

While to me GSDs are the only breed, and all the rest are just dogs, I disagree with whoever gave you that assessment.

You really should love dogs, or most dogs, different shapes, different sizes, different purposes. When someone tells you they know how to manage big dogs, they have had plenty of labs, well, it is nice to know some of the different traits and characteristics common in gun dogs, and how that might be different for people getting a herding dog for the first time.

Knowing dogs in and out is what breeders really should be thriving for. If someone says they have trained border collies and goldens, how is training a shepherd different, well, actually I do not think that people really ask that question, but you can probably ascertain that if someone is accustomed to how border collies are, they will probably do pretty good with an active GSD. Probably.

But breeding several types of dogs at once, yes even three, that is harder to stomach. If you start out with sheps, and learn, and continuously learn bloodlines, and dogs and dogs and more dogs. If you spend time in the various type of training venues, clubs, shows, eat, sleep, and breath sheps, until you are an expert in many of the different aspects, and you want to add another breed of dog, that would be the way to go about it. But you would then have to keep up with two breeds. Two sets of bloodlines, watching various dogs of two different lines, what they produce, where they are weak, where they are strong and the whole nine yards.

I have a heck of a time learning all I need to know just about shepherds. The more I learn, the more I realize there is so much more to learn. I know that I could not manage more than one breed. But that does not mean that someone else does not have the capacity to do so and to do it well. 

You would have to be able to look at yourself and measure yourself with a critical eye to know whether you are keeping up well with each of your breeds. 

Health concerns, bloodlines, various training venues, training menthods, different lines (working/show, field/show) different types if separated into color, and all the rest. 

It is not something where you can read Von Stephanitz's book and be an expert. It is a living base of knowledge that must be constantly followed.

Do not believe everything people say. Many people apply a thought they have for themselves to everyone in general: i.e. I do not like prong collars, I will not use them, nobody should use them.


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## jakeandrenee

I am trying to understand that's all. This is a GSD forum and of course there are many sections for the non GSD topics...I am trying to understand the nature of your question and if you even have a dog.....that's what it's "got" to do with it.


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## Konotashi

I think it would be very VERY difficult to successfully be a reputable breeder of more than one breed at one time unless it's like the GSD and the mal.


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## LaRen616

I personally would not buy from a breeder that breeds more than one breed.

I dont mind if the breeder has other breeds as family pets but I want them to be dedicated to breeding one breed and focusing on making that one breed better.

Just my personal opinion.


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## GSD Fan

jakeandrenee said:


> I am trying to understand that's all. This is a GSD forum and of course there are many sections for the non GSD topics...I am trying to understand the nature of your question and if you even have a dog.....that's what it's "got" to do with it.


I apologize for my rudeness.


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## selzer

GSD Fan said:


> I wasn't really planning on breeding more than one breed, rather I was looking at the breed I love the most.
> 
> About that last part,
> what about a breeder who breeds Irish Setters AND Golden Retrievers? Or a breeder who breeds Rotties and GSDs? Those two examples are a lot alike, right?


Irish Setters and Golden Retrievers are actually pretty different from a hunting standpoint. So you would have to learn how to hunt with a setter as opposed to a retriever. Also, GRs are way more popular than IS so, from a show standpoint that has pros and cons. 

I think people breeding Labs and Goldens, can probably do it successfully with more ease. Irish Setters, and English Setters. 

But then I know people who can breed completely different breeds and manage to do it well. I would almost think that breeding dogs very close in type, might be a bit more confusing. It would not be hard to keep Pappions straight with Corgi's but it would be a totally different experience in every sense.


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## selzer

LaRen616 said:


> I personally would not buy from a breeder that breeds more than one breed.
> 
> I dont mind if the breeder has other breeds as family pets but I want them to be dedicated to breeding one breed and focusing on making that one breed better.
> 
> Just my personal opinion.


Blanket statements, red flags, you would pass up an awesome dog from an icon in two different breeds, both in showing, and in performance because they do not fit your ideal; but you would buy from a byb putting together their family pets. Whatever.

The person I consider my mentor has bred different breeds over the years, and she has forgotten more about everyone of those breeds than I may ever know. It boggles my mind how much she knows about the one breed, and then come to find out she knows that in every breed she has bred. She has the dogs, the understanding, the know-how, the background; but you would rather go to someone with a pet he is not even sure the lines of, or the dogs behind, because the only dog they are breeding is Shepherds.


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## GSD Fan

I want to say thank you to the people who took a moment to reply.

Um, it's not that I wanted to breed more than one breed, it's just that I was considering different breeds.

What I'm saying is, I love Golden Retrievers, GSDs, siberian huskies, but I would like to be a breeder who breeds only one breed.

Does that make sense?

Now, I'm considering Siberian Huskies. I love the breed and see ways I could improve the breed. I also love the GSD.


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## LaRen616

selzer said:


> Blanket statements, red flags, you would pass up an awesome dog from an icon in two different breeds, both in showing, and in performance because they do not fit your ideal; but you would buy from a byb putting together their family pets. Whatever.


What is your problem today? Your attitude is annoying and uncalled for.

I made the mistake and bought from a BYB before I even knew what one was and I said I wouldn't buy from another BYB again. 

I SAID THAT I PERSONALLY WOULDN"T BUY FROM A BREEDER THAT BREEDS MORE THAN ONE BREED. It's my opinion. 

I dont give a  what you think about it. Thanks though.


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## selzer

You have to become an expert on a lot of things on the breed your breeding. You can love and even own other breeds, you might only become an expert on training on those breeds. 

Breeding does have an element of passion in it, but I don't think you have to ONLY like want breed in order to be a good breeder.


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## selzer

LaRen616 said:


> I personally would not buy from a breeder that breeds more than one breed.
> 
> *I dont mind if the breeder has other breeds as family pets but I want them to be dedicated to breeding one breed and focusing on making that one breed better.
> *
> Just my personal opinion.


I think it is the blanket statements and the family pets that bothers me. You can really not be much more than a BYB if you have just one or two dogs. How will that be focussed on making the breed better. To make the breed better, you have to hold back pups to use for breeding down the line. To be a good breeder you have to be willing to take dogs back. There are so many reasons, why this statement makes me think you will not buy from an excellent breeder, but you would from a BYB. 

I do not keep track where people have gotten their current or former pets. So if you think I was slighting you on previous decisions, I am sorry that you took it that way. I just have a problem with the statements listed here.


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## LaRen616

selzer said:


> I think it is the blanket statements and the family pets that bothers me. You can really not be much more than a BYB if you have just one or two dogs. How will that be focussed on making the breed better. To make the breed better, you have to hold back pups to use for breeding down the line. To be a good breeder you have to be willing to take dogs back. There are so many reasons, why this statement makes me think you will not buy from an excellent breeder, but you would from a BYB.
> 
> I do not keep track where people have gotten their current or former pets. So if you think I was slighting you on previous decisions, I am sorry that you took it that way. I just have a problem with the statements listed here.


I never said that they have 2 GSD's so I dont know where you got that from? I said that I wouldn't buy from a breeder that breeds more than one breed. 

I dont see anything wrong with someone that breeds GSD's but they have a Beagle that is a pet. 

I already have my future breeder picked out and he is an excellent breeder, thanks. 

I wouldn't give any more of my money to another BYB.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have a couple of different breeds, grew up with 3 different breeds. I am not a breeder tho I wouldn't hesitate to buy from someone who bred more than one breed if it was a dog I wanted for 'whatever'. 

My thinking, while I do think people have to start somewhere, for me, I'm going to go to someone who's been doing it for quite some time. For myself, I have no desire to get into the breeding side of things, it's easier for me to research and go buy what I want from someone who knows what they are doing and producing the type of dogs that I'm interested in.


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## Jax's Mom

Loving a breed isn't like being married to one person... A couple of years ago I wanted to breed boxers, unfortunately my last boxer was the best boxer I would ever see and any boxer after her would just be a disappointment (her breeder even said so). So I chose a GSD for my next dog and have now fallen in love with this breed. 
Good breeders aren't as elite and exclusive as the insecure ones would like you to think. They have a long history of success that doesn't need to be defended by shutting out other potential breeders. Like Selzer said, if they're trying to improve the breed using their 3 dogs, it won't do much good.


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## selzer

I just do not think that breeding more than one breed definitely puts you into the BYB category. 

I know a lot of people breeding just one breed of dog that ARE BYBs. Some are close to puppy mills. MOST of them are doing NOTHING to further the breed, are not active in any dog-venues, are not concerned with training, titling, showing, bloodlines, or any of it really. 

I know a few individuals, who are ABLE to go the whole nine yards, for more than one breed. I know that I would not be able to do this. Maybe after twenty more years of experience, and then I would have to take my senility temperature to know whether I was thinking clearly or not. But just because I do not feel that I have the capacity to store and use that knowledge for more than one breed, does not mean that no one can. 

I have a general issue with blanket statements and red flags. I think there is good reason to dig deeper when someone breeds more than one breed. But not a good reason to turn them down flat. 

If you want to do that, that is certainly up to you, but you can be turning down an excellent dog, for a so-so dog by doing so.


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## LaRen616

selzer said:


> *I just do not think that breeding more than one breed definitely puts you into the BYB category*.
> 
> I know a lot of people breeding just one breed of dog that ARE BYBs. Some are close to puppy mills. MOST of them are doing NOTHING to further the breed, are not active in any dog-venues, are not concerned with training, titling, showing, bloodlines, or any of it really.
> 
> I know a few individuals, who are ABLE to go the whole nine yards, for more than one breed. I know that I would not be able to do this. Maybe after twenty more years of experience, and then I would have to take my senility temperature to know whether I was thinking clearly or not. But just because I do not feel that I have the capacity to store and use that knowledge for more than one breed, does not mean that no one can.
> 
> I have a general issue with blanket statements and red flags. I think there is good reason to dig deeper when someone breeds more than one breed. But not a good reason to turn them down flat.
> 
> If you want to do that, that is certainly up to you, but you can be turning down an excellent dog, for a so-so dog by doing so.


I never called them a BYB. I never said that someone who breeds more than one breed is a BYB, I said I wouldn't buy from someone that breeds more than one breed, because I want them to focus on one breed.


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## selzer

LaRen616 said:


> I never called them a BYB. I never said that someone who breeds more than one breed is a BYB, I said I wouldn't buy from someone that breeds more than one breed, because I want them to focus on one breed.



That is fine, if that is what you want. 

I could say, I do not want to buy a dog from anyone who trains with a prong collar. I do not use them, I do not like them, I do not think anyone should need them, and certainly a breeder should be able to train a dog without them. 

I could be seriously limiting myself and purchasing a much lesser dog because I would be applying my own belief system for me personally onto another person.


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## trudy

Seltzer, never say never, I also said I would never use a prong, nor train any dog with one, eating my words now. When Ty hit the teenage years and he has high prey drive and lots of energy and ducks and geese were coming back in the spring, either I gave up our daily walks, got pulled into traffic, or used the prong. WOW instant success. Now I have one and I know I can pull it out if needed. And yes I have used it a few other times, any tool used correctly is worth considering.


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## Whiteshepherds

Quote:
Originally Posted by *LaRen616*  
_I personally would not buy from a breeder that breeds more than one breed.

*I dont mind if the breeder has other breeds as family pets but I want them to be dedicated to breeding one breed and focusing on making that one breed better.
*
Just my personal opinion._

[quote -SELZER] I think it is the blanket statements and the family pets that bothers me. You can really not be much more than a BYB if you have just one or two dogs. How will that be focussed on making the breed better. To make the breed better, you have to hold back pups to use for breeding down the line. To be a good breeder you have to be willing to take dogs back. There are so many reasons, why this statement makes me think you will not buy from an excellent breeder, but you would from a BYB. [/quote]

Funny how we inturpret things differently. I thought LaRen was saying she would rather buy from someone who only breeds one specific type of dog, but wouldn't care if that same breeder had family pets from other breeds. 
 
You know...someone who breeds just GSD's but also has a Rottie and a BC as pets. (*they don't breed the Rottie or the BC, they just breed the GSD's*) Not sure how you got BYB from that.


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## onyx'girl

I look at the breeder and what the breeder is breeding, their whole program before deciding on going with them. If they only have one or two dogs and use outside studs that are good matches, so be it. 
The term BYB is getting thrown around so much, it is getting old.

I also look at the stud owners and who they are breeding them to. 
If a breeder has a kennel full of females, that would be more a "red flag" to me than one that only has a couple. Because I like a smaller hobby breeder. 
Still I'd look at the big picture and what they've bred in the past, and if they are actually working their dogs!! That to me is #1. 
I don't know if I'd take a chance on a first time litter from a new breeder unless they've been mentored and I wanted a pup from the breeding match they've selected.
I see quite a few GSD breeders that also have Corgi's or other herding dogs, it doesn't deter me from looking at what they are producing-in fact it intrigues me more.


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## Castlemaid

GSD Fan, to me, a breeder is someone who is immersed into the breed, has a deep understanding of the intent and correct breed traits of the breed, has spent a lifetime studying and _working_ and training with their breed of choice, and has a vision and a long-term plan in what they want to produce in their breedings. 

Someone who is not even sure of what breed they want to breed, are in love with the idea of being a breeder, but not with the dogs. Sure, they _like_ dogs alright! And they probably had some great dogs growing up, and would love to spend the rest of their lives surrounded by dogs, of all kinds - but to me, that is no different than someone saying "I love Fluffy, I take so good care of her, she is the best, I think I will breed her because puppies are cute and my friends and family all want a Fluffy puppy." 

So yes, in reference to your subject line, I think you are trying to build on sandy soil, and lack stability in your structural thinking. If you would like to be a breeder, you would _know_ which breed is the right breed for you, you would be head-over-heel in love with that breed, and would already have had a lot of exposure about the history of the breed, have spent a lot of time attending shows and events to see and learn as much about that breed as you can, would have already found a mentor to help you learn along the way, and would be solid and steady in your foundation beliefs in what you wanted to produce in your breeding program. 

A lot of people will defend their wish to breed with "Well, everyone has to start somewhere" - well of course! But by the time it comes to actually selecting a foundation female for breeding, you are not starting, you are well versed in everything and very much _involved_ and _immersed_ in that breed. 

What do you know about the history of the breed? What do you know about Schutzhund? About Sledding? About famous dogs of the breed? What do you know about working temperament? About genetics, about colour inheritence, about the standard, about inherited genetic illnesses, about various obedience venues? About tracking/scenting? Have you been involved in these pursuits in any way? 

I remember a member who joined up a few years ago. They had these untrained/unsocialized rescue dogs, they were going to breed them for the police K9 market. They were going to breed sable GSDs, because most police K9's are sable, and thus, they reasoned, their dogs will be in demand as K9's. They had no previous experience with working lines, with breeding, with training, with appropriate work temperament evaluation. But they were going to be sables, so they will be good dogs, they felt. And hey, everyone has to start somewhere, so why are we (people on this board at the time) so against their breeding plans? 

I'm sure they loved their dogs and had good intentions, but they were building their breeding program on quicksand.


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## jakeandrenee

Really well said Lucia.


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## GSD Fan

Castlemaid said:


> Someone who is not even sure of what breed they want to breed, are in love with the idea of being a breeder, but not with the dogs. Sure, they _like_ dogs alright! And they probably had some great dogs growing up, and would love to spend the rest of their lives surrounded by dogs, of all kinds - but to me, that is no different than someone saying "I love Fluffy, I take so good care of her, she is the best, I think I will breed her because puppies are cute and my friends and family all want a Fluffy puppy."


I want to address this part.

Is that me, is that how you think I'm thinking?

I love the dogs, I a lot more than like them.

I must admit I love the thought of becoming a breeder, but also I love the dogs. I love siberian huskies, I love GSDs, and I love GRs. 

So what you're saying is, for the soil to be right you MUST start out determined with one breed? What about breeders who love more than one breed but decided to go with [insert breed]? They're BYBs to you?

But, everyone is titled to their opinions.


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## Castlemaid

GSD Fan said:


> So what you're saying is, for the soil to be right you MUST start out determined with one breed? What about breeders who love more than one breed but decided to go with [insert breed]? They're BYBs to you?


Did I say that? Did I say that if you love more than one breed you are a BYB? Now you are reading too much into this. 

What I find interesting, is that Goldens, Huskies, and German Shepherds are VASTLY different dogs with different temperaments, different reasons for beings. I find it very interesting that these major differences are all equally attractive to you. Which traits in each breed would you want to maintain and improve if you were to breed them, and how would you go about it? 



> But, everyone is titled to their opinions.


 Indeed. You asked what people thought, so I answered. This is what I think. I may have oversimplified for illustrative purposes, and I apologize if you felt that did not reflect accurately on your motives. Perhaps you could share with us your vision as a breeder of Goldens or Huskies or German Shepherds, just as I have shared my vision of what I would consider a serious and dedicated breeder. 

For me (and that is my thoughts, others may have other criteria and thought processes on the subject), if I asked a breeder "What got you into breeding German Shepherds (for example), and the answer was:

"I always wanted to be a breeder. I was going to breed either Goldens or Huskies, or GSDs, because I love these dogs (more than anyone else in the whole wide world), but then I settled on the GSD, and so here I am."

I would have a hard time taking that person seriously. and I'd be off looking somewhere else.


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## GSD Fan

Castlemaid said:


> Did I say that? Did I say that if you love more than one breed you are a BYB? Now you are reading too much into this.
> 
> What I find interesting, is that Goldens, Huskies, and German Shepherds are VASTLY different dogs with different temperaments, different reasons for beings. I find it very interesting that these major differences are all equally attractive to you. Which traits in each breed would you want to maintain and improve if you were to breed them, and how would you go about it?


In Golden Retrievers, I would want to maintain the intelligence, the kindness, improve the health (cancer rates and eyes), and contribute to the numbers of good breeders of the breed.

In German Shepherds, my main concern would be the aggression and biting. Of course, I'd title and work my stock and get them health certified, but my breeding program would focus the most on temperament.

In Siberian Huskies, I see a lot of people breeding them who know less than I do in this area. So, I'd like to supply this area with good, sound, quality huskies. Another thing I would focus on in my breeding of huskies would be the biting (has increased).

I may come back later and give you even more of my vision of each breed.




> Indeed. You asked what people thought, so I answered. This is what I think. I may have oversimplified for illustrative purposes, and I apologize if you felt that did not reflect accurately on your motives. Perhaps you could share with us your vision as a breeder of Goldens or Huskies or German Shepherds, just as I have shared my vision of what I would consider a serious and dedicated breeder.
> 
> For me (and that is my thoughts, others may have other criteria and thought processes on the subject), if I asked a breeder "What got you into breeding German Shepherds (for example), and the answer was:
> 
> "I always wanted to be a breeder. I was going to breed either Goldens or Huskies, or GSDs, because I love these dogs (more than anyone else in the whole wide world), but then I settled on the GSD, and so here I am."
> 
> I would have a hard time taking that person seriously. and I'd be off looking somewhere else.


Then, I guess it's good I don't feel that way, nor would I answer in those words.

If someone asked me, "What got you into breeding siberian huskies"? I'd reply, "Well, of course my love for the breed. I see problems with the breed and would like to improve and contribute to the breed." Something like that.


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## Jax's Mom

I personally (as a purchaser) could care less _why_ a breeder chose to become a breeder and how they picked the breed. I'd rather hear about what makes their dog superior.
I don't go to my dentist because I love to hear about how he chose dentistry or whether he has any disciplines... he actually has horrible bedside manner and his whiney nasal voice is like nails on a chalkboard to me but he's the best dentist I've ever been to... his work is amazing and pain free and that's why I go to him.
If anyone asked me why I chose to become a breeder, I'd have to tell them it was because I was tired of breeders parading their certificates and titles around and yet their dogs don't live past a few years.


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## sagelfn

GSD Fan said:


> In Golden Retrievers, I would want to maintain the intelligence, the kindness, improve the health (cancer rates and eyes), and contribute to the numbers of good breeders of the breed.
> 
> In German Shepherds, my main concern would be the aggression and biting. Of course, I'd title and work my stock and get them health certified, but my breeding program would focus the most on temperament.
> 
> In Siberian Huskies, I see a lot of people breeding them who know less than I do in this area. So, I'd like to supply this area with good, sound, quality huskies. Another thing I would focus on in my breeding of huskies would be the biting (has increased).
> 
> I may come back later and give you even more of my vision of each breed.
> 
> Then, I guess it's good I don't feel that way, nor would I answer in those words.
> 
> If someone asked me, "What got you into breeding siberian huskies"? I'd reply, "Well, of course my love for the breed. I see problems with the breed and would like to improve and contribute to the breed." Something like that.


I think right now you do not know enough about any of these breeds to even answer the question. What you have answered is very very vague.


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## Whiteshepherds

GSD I always enjoy your posts because they start some great conversations,  but I have to ask you this. 

Right now I don't think it matters how many breeds you love, I'm curious to know why someone who seems to love dogs so much isn't actively involved with any? It's hard to understand how someone could want to be a breeder so badly but at the same time, not own a dog or work at a shelter, pet store, with a rescue etc. (unless I missed something?)

If you really want to be a breeder someday you have miles and miles to go before reaching that point. My guess is, when that day comes you'll know which breed has to be in your life, but you won't know that until you start working with, living with and training dogs. 

To answer your original question, there's no reason why someone can't breed two different types of dogs but I would guess that it takes a special kind of person to do it well.


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## sagelfn

Jax's Mom said:


> I personally (as a purchaser) could care less _why_ a breeder chose to become a breeder and how they picked the breed. I'd rather hear about what makes their dog superior.
> I don't go to my dentist because I love to hear about how he chose dentistry or whether he has any disciplines... he actually has horrible bedside manner and his whiney nasal voice is like nails on a chalkboard to me but he's the best dentist I've ever been to... his work is amazing and pain free and that's why I go to him.
> *If anyone asked me why I chose to become a breeder, I'd have to tell them it was because I was tired of breeders parading their certificates and titles around and yet their dogs don't live past a few years*.


Thats a joke right?


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## GSD Fan

sagelfn said:


> I think right now you do not know enough about any of these breeds to even answer the question. What you have answered is very very vague.


I'm sorry. I guess I shouldn't have made this thread. It has only created negative energy and that negative energy is effecting me. 

I answered the questions somewhat the best I could. Somewhat because there was more.

whiteshepherds, I've volunteered at a shelter before. I'm considering volunteering again on Fridays this semester.

I'm not involved as much as I want to because transportation is a problem right now.


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## Whiteshepherds

GSD Fan said:


> whiteshepherds, I've volunteered at a shelter before. I'm considering volunteering again on Fridays this semester..


Good for you!


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## Jessiewessie99

What the person told you was wrong. You can be a GSD breeder and love many breeds. I wouldn't mind someone breeding 2 different breeds, as long as they were a reputable breeder and are able to give excellent care and training to the dogs. There are bad breeders who breed more than one breed, and bad breeders who breed one breed. I might be a little iffy of someone who breeds 3 breeds, but that depends on many things as well.

But if you are a GSD breeder and love Pomeranians and Goldens, then so be it. If you are a GSD breeder and have a Golden as a pet and not using he/she for breeding, but just as a pet companion, thats fine. As long as you are not an animal hoarder.


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## sagelfn

GSD Fan said:


> I'm sorry. I guess I shouldn't have made this thread. It has only created negative energy and that negative energy is effecting me.
> 
> I answered the questions somewhat the best I could. Somewhat because there was more.


I did not mean to offend you. I am sorry if I did.

What I meant was that you have much to learn young grasshopper :tongue:

I think you do not realize yet how much there is to learn.

Imagine the workload for someone in school to be a surgeon.  crap that's a lot of school! If that same person also wanted to learn how to fly a plane and learn to play piano do you think they could do it all at once? Doesn't it make more sense to learn one first before trying the other.

First learn one breed. Master that breed. While breeding one you could start learning another.

I do think it would be near impossible to breed more than 1 breed responsibly. Just thinking of how many bitches you would need, studs, puppies on the ground, heat cycles, training, titling, taking puppies back if owners don't work out, retired females and studs, dog poop to scoop up, grooming, work, social life, other pets...no way I could do it.

I have been on the boards for a while and I still have trouble understanding specifics of the GSD's correct temperament. On paper its fine but seeing it in a dog and recognizing it is much different. Hopefully with more experience I'll understand.


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## Castlemaid

I think people are trying to point out how much there is still to learn, not create negative energy. 

As an example, for what you explained about how you would like to improve the dogs you breed, that is basically breeding for nice pets, and that is a lazy person's and un-educated person's view of breeding. I'm not saying this to create negative energy, I'm saying this because I know you are dedicated to being responsible and doing things right, and the last thing you want to be is an un-educated breeder. There are a bazillion gazillion nice pets of all sizes, ages, breeds, colours, mixes, temperaments, energy levels in shelters all over North America, so the last thing this world needs is another pet dog breeder. 

A good breeder of Siberian Huskies breeds good sled dogs. Is involved in the many working aspects of dogs used for transportation and breeds for health, stamina and many other attributes that I am not familiar with. 

A good breeder of Golden Retrievers breeds for dogs that can fulfill their original job of hunting and retrieving. They breed dogs that embody the ideal of a happy-go-lucky gentle and devoted family dog with a high level of drive for training, retrieving, hunting all day. The dogs will be of solid nerve, unfazed by gunshots at close proximity, and will work all day for as long as his/her owner needs him to work. If a person is not involved in field trials, how can they know which lines and which dogs embody this ideal? 

Same with GSDs. The ideal is the working dog, one that can take down a bad guy, find a lost person, guide a blind person, herd all day with minimal direction from the herdsman, and be a completely reliable family companion. When you talk about breeding for aggression and biting, I don't know if you mean you want to breed more aggression and stronger biting, or less?
Which do you think the breed needs to be bred for? More aggression, or less? Should GSDs be bred that are more likely to bite, or less likely to bite? Is it black and white? What are the shades of gray? Unless you are involved in the active training of working dogs, you can't really know. Not a slam on you, more like trying to help you achieve your goals and dreams by showing what is needed to do things right. 

You do start some excellent discussions, the questions you ask are intelligent and perceptive, and I'm sure that a lot of people learn a lot from these threads. If anything, it will help you start working towards gaining all the experience that will guide you towards your future breeding decisions.


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## tierra nuestra

GSD Fan said:


> In Golden Retrievers, I would want to maintain the intelligence, the kindness, improve the health (cancer rates and eyes), and contribute to the numbers of good breeders of the breed.
> 
> In German Shepherds, my main concern would be the aggression and biting. Of course, I'd title and work my stock and get them health certified, but my breeding program would focus the most on temperament.
> 
> In Siberian Huskies, I see a lot of people breeding them who know less than I do in this area. So, I'd like to supply this area with good, sound, quality huskies. Another thing I would focus on in my breeding of huskies would be the biting (has increased).
> 
> I may come back later and give you even more of my vision of each breed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then, I guess it's good I don't feel that way, nor would I answer in those words.
> 
> If someone asked me, "What got you into breeding siberian huskies"? I'd reply, "Well, of course my love for the breed. I see problems with the breed and would like to improve and contribute to the breed." Something like that.


Before you start on becoming a breeder,I think that all your good intentions on improving the breeds will be for nothing if you are not somewhat of a geneticist,behaviourist,trainer,responsible long term dog owner all rolled into one.Good intentions will go nowhere fast without knowledge first.What you want to become and what you want to successfully accomplish are not easy to do but not impossible for the determined who really care for the breed.If you want to really do it,go for it but do it right and to the best of your abilities.


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## GSD Fan

Um, first off I just want to say thank you. Thank everyone of you for not only educating me, but being nice about it. The members of this site are truly nice.

Wow, the standard of a good breeder is pretty high. I guess if I really want to do this, I'll make a way for volunteering at the animal shelter sometime. 

So, not only do you need to understand the science of breeding, but you need to understand what you are breeding, how you are breeding, how to achieve what you are looking for, what lines will help, and etc.

I think now I understand why it takes "years". There's just so much to learn, and I bet even a lot of breeders are still learning.

I go from here by volunteering at a shelter. Not only will that give me more experience with dogs, but may help me in my future goal of becoming a vet.

Thank you.


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## Jessiewessie99

GSD Fan said:


> Um, first off I just want to say thank you. Thank everyone of you for not only educating me, but being nice about it. The members of this site are truly nice.
> 
> Wow, the standard of a good breeder is pretty high. I guess if I really want to do this, I'll make a way for volunteering at the animal shelter sometime.
> 
> So, not only do you need to understand the science of breeding, but you need to understand what you are breeding, how you are breeding, how to achieve what you are looking for, what lines will help, and etc.
> 
> I think now I understand why it takes "years". There's just so much to learn, and I bet even a lot of breeders are still learning.
> 
> I go from here by volunteering at a shelter. Not only will that give me more experience with dogs, but may help me in my future goal of becoming a vet.
> 
> Thank you.


When working at the shelter be advised you will want to take many of the dogs home!!


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## Rei

GSD Fan said:


> Um, first off I just want to say thank you. Thank everyone of you for not only educating me, but being nice about it. The members of this site are truly nice.
> 
> Wow, the standard of a good breeder is pretty high. I guess if I really want to do this, I'll make a way for volunteering at the animal shelter sometime.
> 
> So, not only do you need to understand the science of breeding, but you need to understand what you are breeding, how you are breeding, how to achieve what you are looking for, what lines will help, and etc.
> 
> I think now I understand why it takes "years". There's just so much to learn, and I bet even a lot of breeders are still learning.
> 
> I go from here by volunteering at a shelter. Not only will that give me more experience with dogs, but may help me in my future goal of becoming a vet.
> 
> Thank you.


:thumbup: Your attitude in this post and willingness to keep others' opinions in mind rationally is admirable, and I commend you for that. 

Now here is my take, for what it is worth. And please do keep in mind that it is my opinion only and no one need agree. If someone actually believes me to be grossly misinformed, I would appreciate it if they pointed it out. 

It really should not be about having high standards. It is about education and often motivation. I do not believe that someone should struggle to fit the mold a forum creates for what is a responsible breeder and what is not. You cannot say "I will try to be more passionate about the breed" or "I will work harder to have a better ideal and change my opinions to mirror that of the majority's" and be expected to thus have a solid foundation, or, as you say quite nicely, "good soil" beneath the construction you build upon. 

You will find that two, three, four years from now, your opinions, expectations, and aspirations may vastly change. Imagine how it will be in twenty, thirty years. Experience, exposure, education. Know what you want, know what others believe, and get a feel for what is around you, not just in your area, but the population as a whole. 

Others may disagree, but a breeder does not work towards a standard set for them by a population of forum members, just as a German Shepherd breeder should not only breed towards an image set forth to them by a current fad within the breed ring. As you have seen on this forum, some will tell you that you are wrong to choose more than one breed, while others disagree, and some say that if you do not have titles on your dog you have no business in the breeding world, and even that is not an opinion everyone shares. So who do you listen to? That is what I mean when I say the words exposure, education, etc. Even asking this question on the forum and then willing to take it all in constructively is a great example of exposure and education. 

Now here is where I am sure someone will chime in and say "huh, this member's been here for over 2 years and still supports backyard breeders??". I am not saying that you should breed any dog you wish to, and that I think every dog should pass on their genetics. Instead, I wish to question the definition and basis of 'reputable breeders' over the people we so quickly label to be 'backyard breeders' and say that it is my belief that it is more important to teach others to educate themselves and provide a means to help them understand rather than to define what makes someone a 'backyard breeder' and see if the OP fits such a definition. I am not saying that that is the attitude of this thread (on the contrary, I think there have been many great and helpful posts and the tone here is better than that on most breeding threads)... just wished to clarify myself. 

Here is something I wondered about when I read this post, however


GSD Fan said:


> In Golden Retrievers, I would want to maintain the intelligence, the kindness, improve the health (cancer rates and eyes), and contribute to the numbers of good breeders of the breed.
> 
> In German Shepherds, my main concern would be the aggression and biting. Of course, I'd title and work my stock and get them health certified, but my breeding program would focus the most on temperament.
> 
> In Siberian Huskies, I see a lot of people breeding them who know less than I do in this area. So, I'd like to supply this area with good, sound, quality huskies. Another thing I would focus on in my breeding of huskies would be the biting (has increased).
> 
> If someone asked me, "What got you into breeding siberian huskies"? I'd reply, "Well, of course my love for the breed. I see problems with the breed and would like to improve and contribute to the breed." Something like that.


Why would you title your stock? Will you title your breeding stock because that is what others have drilled into you? And will you be satisfied with a CD or CGC for a title, or a UKC Champion? Or will you insist on a SCHH1? If you are okay with any, why? Why do you not see a difference between a CGC and a SCHH3? If you insist on a Schutzhund title over a Companion Dog title, or vice versa, again I would ask why? What does the title tell you? That the judge who watched you and your dog gave you the okay for breeding, or does the process of achieving such a title say something to you personally about the dog before you and what the dog has to offer? 

On a similar note, when you say aggression and imply that as a problem, do you know that there are many well known breeders who value aggression in a dog? One very well respected breeder on this forum has specifically stated "The German Shepherd Dog is an aggressive breed". If you believe that aggression and biting is a problem you must breed away from with great purpose, then will you only breed complacent dogs with no civil drive? 

If such is the case, what is the difference between the dogs you hope to breed and the Shiloh and King Shepherds being bred, besides bloodline? They say they focus on temperament as well, breeding for their own ideal image of the family pet without the same drive and instincts of the GSD. What elements of temperament will you be focusing on? What would be your approach to improving on temperament? And what is your own ideal of the GSD temperament in comparison to the ideal of other breeders, and the ideal of the Captain? Will you breed towards the same ideal when breeding the Golden Retriever, Siberian Husky, and German Shepherd Dog?

Understand that I am not trying to attack or sound accusatory, and I am not expecting answers. All questions are rhetorical and hypothetical and more "food for thought" than anything. An attempt to show you, as Castlemaid said, just how much there is to learn and consider, if you will. 



Castlemaid said:


> I think people are trying to point out how much there is still to learn, not create negative energy.
> 
> As an example, for what you explained about how you would like to improve the dogs you breed, that is basically breeding for nice pets, and that is a lazy person's and un-educated person's view of breeding. I'm not saying this to create negative energy, I'm saying this because I know you are dedicated to being responsible and doing things right, and the last thing you want to be is an un-educated breeder. There are a bazillion gazillion nice pets of all sizes, ages, breeds, colours, mixes, temperaments, energy levels in shelters all over North America, so the last thing this world needs is another pet dog breeder.
> 
> A good breeder of Siberian Huskies breeds good sled dogs. Is involved in the many working aspects of dogs used for transportation and breeds for health, stamina and many other attributes that I am not familiar with.
> 
> A good breeder of Golden Retrievers breeds for dogs that can fulfill their original job of hunting and retrieving. They breed dogs that embody the ideal of a happy-go-lucky gentle and devoted family dog with a high level of drive for training, retrieving, hunting all day. The dogs will be of solid nerve, unfazed by gunshots at close proximity, and will work all day for as long as his/her owner needs him to work. If a person is not involved in field trials, how can they know which lines and which dogs embody this ideal?
> 
> Same with GSDs. The ideal is the working dog, one that can take down a bad guy, find a lost person, guide a blind person, herd all day with minimal direction from the herdsman, and be a completely reliable family companion. When you talk about breeding for aggression and biting, I don't know if you mean you want to breed more aggression and stronger biting, or less?
> Which do you think the breed needs to be bred for? More aggression, or less? Should GSDs be bred that are more likely to bite, or less likely to bite? Is it black and white? What are the shades of gray? Unless you are involved in the active training of working dogs, you can't really know. Not a slam on you, more like trying to help you achieve your goals and dreams by showing what is needed to do things right.
> 
> You do start some excellent discussions, the questions you ask are intelligent and perceptive, and I'm sure that a lot of people learn a lot from these threads. If anything, it will help you start working towards gaining all the experience that will guide you towards your future breeding decisions.


 Just had to say that this is a very good post and much better than I could have said it. 



Jax's Mom said:


> I personally (as a purchaser) could care less _why_ a breeder chose to become a breeder and how they picked the breed. I'd rather hear about what makes their dog superior.
> I don't go to my dentist because I love to hear about how he chose dentistry or whether he has any disciplines... he actually has horrible bedside manner and his whiney nasal voice is like nails on a chalkboard to me but he's the best dentist I've ever been to... his work is amazing and pain free and that's why I go to him.
> If anyone asked me why I chose to become a breeder, I'd have to tell them it was because I was tired of breeders parading their certificates and titles around and yet their dogs don't live past a few years.


 I personally believe differently. Not because I wish to start a debate, or because I believe you are wrong in your opinion, but because this brings up a very nice point that I believe to be important. Motivation behind becoming a breeder. 

A breeder may breed superior dogs, but if his motivation is money, or the perks of owning high in trial sports dogs or AKC Grand Champions, I would not wish to purchase from such a breeder as a dog owner (as opposed to me in the shoes of a breeder).

As someone looking for a good sport dog for flyball, agility, or for the purposes of competitive Schutzhund, or even a good police dog or PPD, and I was considering a mature dog to purchase, I tend to agree with such a sentiment as the one quoted. 

As someone who is looking for a good German Shepherd Dog with the mindset of supporting a breeder and wishing to promote the breed itself, I would be concerned with the motivation behind the breeder's program. The individual dam and sire may be excellent dogs themselves, but the breeder may have a different goal or image of what is a good breeding (whether it be for black and white and panda puppies that make quick bucks, or high energy high drive low threshold sports dogs, or dogs with a lovely side gait and ear set) and two excellent dogs may come together to produce a litter that does not embody the total German Shepherd I personally wish to see, own, and promote. 

Here, I would like to quote another well respected breeder of this board - "genotype over phenotype". He said this in the context of discussing the selection of breeding dogs and the breeding process in general, but I also see it as a quote that brings up another point. As a puppy buyer, I see the phenotype (and even then, I will often fail to see and understand all attributes of that dog) but it is the breeder who I am trusting to understand the intricacies of breeding and genotype and use such knowledge to breed towards his/her goal and image of the breed (OP: On that note, I high recommend reading through threads in the Bloodlines and Pedigrees section).

Because I do not know the German Shepherd lines and what produces what, I depend on the breeder in this aspect and it is often through a shared goal for the breed that I can count on getting what I want in a dog. If a breeder only wished to become a breeder to produce puppies for money, or for high energy flyball dogs, the litter produced may not include copies of the dam or sire and only, say, high competition flyball puppies because that is what the dam and sire were known to produce, though they themselves may not have represented that. 

On the other hand, if I had enough knowledge to allow me to make such judgments in confidence for myself, and wished to promote and enhance the German Shepherd Dog as a breeder, I would be less concerned with the other breeder's motivation and more concerned with the overall quality of the dog I wish to purchase.

Sometimes when I ask someone, why did you become a breeder? I will receive the response "because I love Schutzhund and want to do well in it with my dogs" or "because my dog is the best family pet ever and I want a replica of her". In understanding the breeder's motivation, I understand what I would be owning and supporting if I choose to purchase a puppy from them. The chances are higher that I would not be getting a good German Shepherd puppy - instead, I would get a good sports puppy or a good teddy bear pet puppy. Which is perfect for someone else, but not what I am looking to pay for. Since I want the total dog, I want to buy from a breeder who breeds the total German Shepherd Dog, instead of focusing on one single trait that should not define the breed, or simply breeding dogs without discrimination. 

Just some things to think about. Apologize for the long and rambling post - it's late at night and I have always had troubles with expressing my thoughts. Of course, as said before, all my opinion only, and hope it made some sense.


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## Good_Karma

I just want to say how disappointed I am that this thread was not actually about soil or housebuilding, two subjects that I actually know something about.  But it was an entertaining read, love your questions GSD Fan!


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## LaRen616

Whiteshepherds said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LaRen616*
> _I personally would not buy from a breeder that breeds more than one breed._
> 
> _*I dont mind if the breeder has other breeds as family pets but I want them to be dedicated to breeding one breed and focusing on making that one breed better.*_
> 
> _Just my personal opinion._
> 
> [quote -SELZER] I think it is the blanket statements and the family pets that bothers me. You can really not be much more than a BYB if you have just one or two dogs. How will that be focussed on making the breed better. To make the breed better, you have to hold back pups to use for breeding down the line. To be a good breeder you have to be willing to take dogs back. There are so many reasons, why this statement makes me think you will not buy from an excellent breeder, but you would from a BYB.


Funny how we inturpret things differently. I thought LaRen was saying she would rather buy from someone who only breeds one specific type of dog, but wouldn't care if that same breeder had family pets from other breeds. 

You know...someone who breeds just GSD's but also has a Rottie and a BC as pets. (*they don't breed the Rottie or the BC, they just breed the GSD's*) Not sure how you got BYB from that.



[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying. Thank you. I didn't understand how BYB came up from that?


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## Jax's Mom

sagelfn said:


> Thats a joke right?


No, why?
You're OK with a breeder breeding their dogs to conform perfectly, meet and exceed every aspect of the standard but could care less about how long the dog lives?
It's been pointed out before that breeder standards in Germany are quite different from those in North America. We would consider them puppy mills. Although the kennels have produced excellent lines, their dogs are bred to be products, not pets, per say. Products which are excellent for their purpose but disposable. The only real objective contribution a new breeder could make to these lines, in my opinion, would be to their health and longevity. 
Angulation, temperament, drive, hardness, etc. are all subjective and will vary from what one group of breeders prefer to another.


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## GSD Fan

Rei said:


> Why would you title your stock? Will you title your breeding stock because that is what others have drilled into you? And will you be satisfied with a CD or CGC for a title, or a UKC Champion? Or will you insist on a SCHH1? If you are okay with any, why? Why do you not see a difference between a CGC and a SCHH3? If you insist on a Schutzhund title over a Companion Dog title, or vice versa, again I would ask why? What does the title tell you? That the judge who watched you and your dog gave you the okay for breeding, or does the process of achieving such a title say something to you personally about the dog before you and what the dog has to offer?
> 
> On a similar note, when you say aggression and imply that as a problem, do you know that there are many well known breeders who value aggression in a dog? One very well respected breeder on this forum has specifically stated "The German Shepherd Dog is an aggressive breed". If you believe that aggression and biting is a problem you must breed away from with great purpose, then will you only breed complacent dogs with no civil drive?
> 
> If such is the case, what is the difference between the dogs you hope to breed and the Shiloh and King Shepherds being bred, besides bloodline? They say they focus on temperament as well, breeding for their own ideal image of the family pet without the same drive and instincts of the GSD. What elements of temperament will you be focusing on? What would be your approach to improving on temperament? And what is your own ideal of the GSD temperament in comparison to the ideal of other breeders, and the ideal of the Captain? Will you breed towards the same ideal when breeding the Golden Retriever, Siberian Husky, and German Shepherd Dog?


I would title my stock because, yes it's been drilled into me, but I'd do it to show others and myself that that stock can do [insert activity] and excel in it. Like for example, CGC, shows obedience. I'd get that title to show my stock can excel in obedience. The title or titles tell me what kind of work the dog can do and excel at and what they may pass down to their puppies.

The second paragraph, I did not know that agression is actually part of the GSD's make up, part of the dog. That should show I indeed have a LOT more to learn.

The third paragraph is kinda hard to answer. I really have no idea yet how I would improve temperament, I guess by combining certain bloodlines and traits? As for my own ideal GSD temperament, I shouldn't answer this because I haven't been around enough GSDs. I feel like my opinion would be . . . misinformed or something or based off only a few GSDs that may not even be typical of the breed. As for the Golden Retriever and the Siberian Husky, I somewhat would breed with the same ideas of titling, producing puppies with sound temperament and quality. 

That's my try RIGHT NOW at those questions. Like you said, years from now my answers will be a lot different, especially if I become a vet or gain a lot of experience with dogs.


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## Jax's Mom

GSD Fan said:


> As for my own ideal GSD temperament, I shouldn't answer this because I haven't been around enough GSDs. I feel like my opinion would be . . . misinformed or something or based off only a few GSDs that may not even be typical of the breed.


Instead of reinventing the wheel, DDR Wesenwertmessziffernsystem 
I think a lot of breeders focus too much on becoming an expert on every single aspect of breeding when there are other people who are already experts in this. I don't think one has enough years in their lifetime to learn this skill and _then_ start breeding.


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## sagelfn

Jax's Mom said:


> No, why?
> You're OK with a breeder breeding their dogs to conform perfectly, meet and exceed every aspect of the standard but could care less about how long the dog lives?


No I'm not and I didn't say that. Your post implied that breeders with titles and championships only do it for bragging rights and don't care about producing the "total GSD" that includes health. What you posted is the type of thing irresponsible BYBs say "I don't need fancy titles to prove my dogs are good" 

Just because a breeder titles their dogs does not make them reputable.


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## martemchik

GSD Fan what worries me is that you don't really understand any of those breeds. I think you need to pick up some books and just read. Or even wikipedia them. I have always wanted a siberian husky, mostly for the look, but after reading about their temperment and personality and most importantly excersise requirement, I decided to steer as far away from that breed as possible. I have met husky owners who have thanked me after I told them why I don't have one. You on the other hand have no time for a dog right now, or even time to volunteer at a shelter, what makes you think you will in the future?

But I do have a question about breeding, with as much as genetics are discussed, most people still want to go to breeders that use one stud or one female for their pups, aren't those two things completely contradictory? My understanding of a good breeder would be one that uses many stud dogs (titled, tested, whatever they think makes a great dog) and many females. Having a single line of dogs really doesn't make sense since recessive genetic traits can only show up later down the line.


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## Jax's Mom

sagelfn said:


> No I'm not and I didn't say that. Your post implied that breeders with titles and championships only do it for bragging rights and don't care about producing the "total GSD" that includes health. What you posted is the type of thing irresponsible BYBs say "I don't need fancy titles to prove my dogs are good"


My post didn't _*imply*_ anything. It *said*,


> If anyone asked me why I chose to become a breeder, I'd have to tell them it was because I was tired of breeders parading their certificates and titles around and yet their dogs don't live past a few years.


What I meant by that is that I'm tired of breeders parading their certificates and titles around and yet their dogs don't live past a few years.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jax's Mom said:


> My post didn't _*imply*_ anything. It *said*,What I meant by that is that I'm tired of breeders parading their certificates and titles around and yet their dogs don't live past a few years.


Have you had bad experiences with dogs dying at a young age?


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## GSD Fan

martemchik said:


> GSD Fan what worries me is that you don't really understand any of those breeds. I think you need to pick up some books and just read. Or even wikipedia them. I have always wanted a siberian husky, mostly for the look, but after reading about their temperment and personality and most importantly excersise requirement, I decided to steer as far away from that breed as possible. I have met husky owners who have thanked me after I told them why I don't have one. *You on the other hand have no time for a dog right now, or even time to volunteer at a shelter, what makes you think you will in the future?*


That's a lie. I do have time to volunteer at a shelter, I just have a problem with transportation. Clearly you're not reading my posts. I had time for my last dog and I was in school. I REHOMED HER BECAUSE I COULDN'T BRING HER IN THE HOUSE, NOT BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME!

It's upsetting that you assume things about me but don't even read or if you do read, understand my posts.

And by the way, wikipedia is not even a good source to read about dogs. You're better off with a book by someone qualified. 

And another thing, why do you think I don't understand those breeds? Do you understand those breeds? I've owned a husky, had experience with sled dogs. I may not 100% understand huskies, but I bet I know more than you are giving me credit for.

One more thing, if you have a question about genetics, how about you make your own thread instead of trying to hijack mine?


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## selzer

Jax's Mom said:


> Instead of reinventing the wheel, DDR Wesenwertmessziffernsystem
> I think a lot of breeders focus too much on becoming an expert on every single aspect of breeding when there are other people who are already experts in this. I don't think one has enough years in their lifetime to learn this skill and _then_ start breeding.


I think a major responsibility of a breeder is to educate. A breeder needs to go into it being able to educate at least somewhat in the training and raising of the breed, and all that entails. It is great to know the background of domestic dogs, and the history of the breed, but it is usually not what is necessary when a puppy buyer calls you about a problem.

A breeder goes into it wanting to produce awesome dogs. My definition of an awesome dog may be very different from another person's, one might be a dog that can track and protect, another might be a dog that is a great pet. But you really cannot produce awesome dogs without some attention to health, longevity, conformation, genetics etc. So the physicial as well as the mental/temperament capabilities have to be addressed. 

Another huge thing that breeders must be able to take is criticism, negative energy, flack, whatever you want to call it. Our dogs, especially crazy GSD-message board people, are pets and like in ways our children. You can tell me I am ugly or fat or stupid, but say something about my kid and that does not fly. i do not even have any kids, i substitute my little nieces. Say something negative about them and a huge wall goes up and a fierce emotion blocks out incoming signals, blocks out reason. 

Maybe that is not as powerful with our dogs. Someone makes the comment, her dogs are so lanky, and suddenly the back bone stiffens, and.... But a breeder HAS to get over themselves, and look through other people's eyes at their dogs or they are dead in the water.


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## Jax's Mom

Whiteshepherds said:


> Have you had bad experiences with dogs dying at a young age?


unfortunately yes, and it's quite upsetting to have done all that research and think you're getting a "healthy" dog whose parents have been holter tested, hips, eyes, elbows checked, conforms in every possible way only to have to part with it at an unusually young age.


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## martemchik

GSD Fan, I'm sorry that I offended you but your comment only proved that you know something about huskies. And after reading that I suggest you think about really getting into that breed. You have experience with sleds and you've had one before which makes you more of an expert on that breed than I am. Your comment earlier about breeding out aggression and biting when it comes to GSDs concerned me and showed you didn't know enough about the GSD. Could you down the road be a great husky breeder? Probably, and I would support you starting 100%. But could you do the three breeds you listed at the same time? Probably not, just due to the amount of time each breed needs at their own activities which do not overlap at all.


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## GSD Fan

martemchik said:


> GSD Fan, I'm sorry that I offended you but your comment only proved that you know something about huskies. And after reading that I suggest you think about really getting into that breed. You have experience with sleds and you've had one before which makes you more of an expert on that breed than I am. Your comment earlier about breeding out aggression and biting when it comes to GSDs concerned me and showed you didn't know enough about the GSD. Could you down the road be a great husky breeder? Probably, and I would support you starting 100%. But could you do the three breeds you listed at the same time? Probably not, just due to the amount of time each breed needs at their own activities which do not overlap at all.


Okay, I forgive you. 

Well, the thread really wasn't about breeding all three breeds at once. What inspired me to make it was the fact that I loved all three breeds enough to breed them and I was just wondering are breeders supposed to only love one breed. I got my answer and am satisfied.


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## bocron

GSD Fan said:


> Like for example, CGC, shows obedience. I'd get that title to show my stock can excel in obedience. The title or titles tell me what kind of work the dog can do and excel at and what they may pass down to their puppies.


CGC doesn't show obedience, it demonstrates very basic good citizenship at the kindergarten level.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

bocron said:


> CGC doesn't show obedience, it demonstrates very basic good citizenship at the kindergarten level.


I got it on my cute Chow mix who has a head injury.  We simply memorized it. If they had gone out of order...yikes!

Point though is yes...very basic! But for her I am as proud of that as if we had gotten a true title - and of course she would never be bred.


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## bocron

Good going. I love when I hear people are getting their CGC, it gets them to spend time learning with their dog. But as a criteria for breedability, no way, no how. As a test of some owner's perseverance, absolutely


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## Jessiewessie99

Speaking of CGC, is there an age limit?


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## Lauri & The Gang

GSD Fan said:


> I'm bringing this up because someone told me that you fall in love with a breed and want to improve the breed, so you become a breeder.
> 
> You don't fall in love with dogs, love many breeds, and pick one or two breeds to improve.


Bull.

I love the German Shepherd breed. I also love the Chinese Crested breed AND the American Cocker breed.

I currently breed Cresteds but would also breed Cockers if I could find the right quality.

If I was independently wealthy I would breed German Shepherds as well.

You CAN be a responsible breeder of more than one breed IF you do it right.


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## Uniballer

Jax's Mom said:


> Instead of reinventing the wheel, DDR Wesenwertmessziffernsystem


I'm afraid that is merely history. The chart remains, but the system that made it work is gone. You need well-educated, unbiased judges to make that system work. And you must understand that it was compulsory.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Speaking of CGC, is there an age limit?


Nope - I got it on Kramer (b/t mix in my avatar) when he was 11 - he had a blast (almost failed when the person ran past him in the crowd - he SO wanted to grab her)!

Thanks, bocron.


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## Emoore

Here's the thing:

When breeders on this forum speak, I feel like a knowledge bomb just exploded in my head. I literally have to read their posts a couple of times to glean all the information in them. Even then I don't understand it all because I don't have the knowledge background for context.

I'm a personal trainer and I have that level of knowledge about my craft. My husband has that kind of knowledge about cars. To me, whatever you do should be done with mind-blowing excellence, especially if you're producing living creatures in a world that's already overrun with living creatures. I don't know anybody who has that depth and breadth of knowledge about several different things. If you can do it, great; but don't be anything short of outstanding.


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## Jax's Mom

Uniballer said:


> I'm afraid that is merely history. The chart remains, but the system that made it work is gone. You need well-educated, unbiased judges to make that system work. And you must understand that it was compulsory.


Yea, I often wonder why it no longer exists... it seems like it was an excellent system, not much guesswork and pretty objective (if the judges are honest). 
No breeder can be an expert in every other breeder's dogs and apply a relative evaluation of theirs to other GSDs, so no matter what their idea of what their lines are or should be, it's difficult to quanitify whether or not you're making any progress toward your goals as a breeder.


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


> Here's the thing:
> When breeders on this forum speak, I feel like a knowledge bomb just exploded in my head. .


I feel like that sometimes too! I had to cut way back on reading a training forum because the information overload was intense.


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## selzer

bocron said:


> CGC doesn't show obedience, it demonstrates very basic good citizenship at the kindergarten level.


I think it does demonstrate obedience, just not the sharp obedience required for a CD or SchH title. The dog must sit, must down, must stay, must come, must not jump up, and it has to be able to walk without dragging the owner. That IS obedience and can be trained for. 

I think that it tells different things about a dog than a CD or Rally title. You can take a dog into any level of rally and never have the judge approach the dog, much less touch the dog. The dog can pretty much fall to pieces in those instances and a dog could still manage in obedience or rally. Yes you can train a flakey dog to manage the stand for exam, if you must. 

You can train a dog to manage a CGC too. But I think there are many more tests that are temperament based than obedience based. Like visiual and audio distractions, walking through a crowd, and supervised separation. There is a little more touching. 

I would not use it as the only measure or test for breeding, but with other titles it gives good information. Really, I have several dogs with RNs and CGCs that will never be bred. We train the dogs to that level, but that does not mean that if they reach that level they are breedworthy. The process gives us some information on the dog, that is all. If you need to take that test multiple times to get the dog to pass it, if you have to have an evaluator of a particular sex or stature, if you have to go through **** and back before taking the the test, then it should tell you the dog has less than stellar qualities in some respects.


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## carmspack

Question for the original poster . Where would you start. Can you find an example of the dog that you would strive for.

As to huskies for sled dog use, not so much, they are pretty well CKC / AKC show dogs bred to represent a uniform outward type. 
Racing and dogs in use are completely different not even on the same public registry. They are well documented private registry bred dogs , and trialed and tested and sought afterworld wide and pricey. There is a man in Ontario who has run the Iditarod and Canada's Yukon Quest several times, plus any race on the circuit. This is his sole source of income. I got to know him because he bought a GSD from me to take care of his young family while he was away on the circuits . This was months at a time , and by necessity to keep his sled dogs his location was remote. Later on I was involved with nutrition pre race. Also conditioned with him off season. Ontario Dogsledding Tours  - Dogsledding Outfitters
here is a site with racing "huskies" what they are expert in (leader, wheel dog etc)
you'll see some of Bruces dogs there Nomad Kennels - Group - dogs in our kennel
It was fun got to admit that , grateful for the experience .
Poodles, labrador retrievers, golden retrievers -- vast difference between the working dogs and the ckc/akc show dogs. I had the pleasure of seeing a brilliant working poodle 'bird dog' . They were orginally bred as a retrieving water dog . For your interest The training and hunt testing that the Standard Poodles have been shown in and 
Tudorose Poodles - Field/Hunting . 
Same thing with golden retrievers . The working dogs have a different frame, and deportment AKC Golden Retrievers RedTail Golden Retreivers
The integrity of character , original to a working breed is kept by those working the dog .
You wouldn't have enough lives to do justice to more than one .
Each time it is like learning a new language . Names on a pedigree are jargon , meaningful for those in the loop , meaningless to an outsider . 

If you can do it , more power to you.


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## GSD Fan

carmspack said:


> Question for the original poster . Where would you start. Can you find an example of the dog that you would strive for.


If I were breeding German Shepherds right now, this is the kind of dog I would strive to produce, according to the qualities the breeder tells about the dog and the way the dog is made up and looks:

Connie

That is the kind of dog I would produce if I were breeding German Shepherds. She's got a nice size, good temperament, and everything I imagined and pictured in a GSD when I first became interested in becoming a GSD breeder. 

Now, as I become more knowledgable and experienced, that will probably change. If you ask me that question in 5 years, I will probably post a whole different dog.


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