# Sticky  Iceberg Breeders



## cliffson1

I bring this up as a term I use to identify many of the breeders of German Shepherds today.
Often people query the board about whether to breed a dog with an outward expression of an health issue or temperament problem. I see the breed as an iceberg in that there is a part that is apparent on the surface, but a larger part that is not visible but just as; if not more important. How often do I hear breeders make decisions exclusively on the surface element. I equate a specific dog to the visible part of the iceberg, and the rest of the litter as the invisible part of the iceberg. This is why it is so important to identify source genetically to health issues and temperament issues as opposed to individual expression of a singular dog. Say a particular dog bloats, and the cause is due to extreme poor diet/feeding purposes....that is different than bloating from a dog with a genetic propensity for bloat. Why???? because in the first case the problem was created and in the second case the succeptibility of the problem is inherited. In the first case, the rest of the dogs in the litter are not succeptible genetically, and in the second case the other pups in the litter are. This is important in my making breeding decisions in terms of whether I would breed the dog and WHO I breed the dog to.
Remember, if the underlying causation is genetic due to a compiling of recessives, (usually from reputable breeders trying to acheive a specialty goal), then the other pups in that litter will carry the same risk as the pup giving the outward expression. So if your advice to them is to scrap the dog from the breeding pool....what about the litter bro/sis. Is this maybe the reason certain problems in the breed continue to proliferate??? Would not a better solution be that you bring in completely new genetic blood into the equation, to minimize that recessive.(make sure the blood blood is much stronger in that area.)
My point is just as an iceberg, you cannot make decisions based solely of the visible expression seen. Many many breeders do, and if your decisions don't access genetic impact, then its very probable you may continue to create and reinforce the issues that you are trying hard to eliminate.
Hope this makes sense.


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## vomlittlehaus

Perfect sense to me. I love the comparison. If only more people thought like you.


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## JakodaCD OA

makes sense to me to,,I'm still waiting for you to write a book to add to my library


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## carmspack

I have a picture of Carmspack Allycia UD just celebrating her 14th birthday romping in the with a bunch of family golden retrievers much much younger than her. The owner trials them and has a number of Master Hunter titles on the Goldens . The GSD is still the queen , still in charge , still youthful in attitude although hearing is becoming selective and eye sight starting to be less than . 
She underwent a procedure for some damage to her knee . It was recommended , since she was "under" for the x ray to also do an x ray on her hips and spin. 
The report was no arthritis on hips or spine , no disorder on spine -- CLEAN , and hips to quote "still tight as a tick" . At 14 .

pedigree represented by her brother Sensei who passed away at age 13 . 
Carmspack Sensei - German Shepherd Dog

Kilo was over 13 years of age , Kilos sister owned by Linda Shaw saw as many years plus some -- Addi Tonteichen was that age (will have to check into that).

I had the pleasure of writing the Seidler family , THE breeders of vom haus Iris . Gunther Seidler told me that Rex Iris passed away at age 14 as reported to him by Adam Kuhn, as did the dam Mira haus Iris , Ulf Iris I believe was 13 or 14 also.

Longevity runs in these lines. But this goes far beyond longevity because the dogs are in carefree rugged health to those last days . 

There is so much more to understand in genetics than basic mendellian mode . Epigenetics, how outside influences change genes --- big one.

A book I would recommend highly is POTTENGERS CATS that shows the effect of flawed nutrition through generations . This book has been unavailable for decades due to a problem with the estate that inherited the works . 'Finally the problem is resolved and the book is back in print , in limited numbers. I jumped at the chance and bought a few.


more later running behind already


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> I
> My point is just as an iceberg, you cannot make decisions based solely of the visible expression seen.


This, to me, is a no-brainer. A dog's genotype is a massive hidden iceberg, while his phenotype is only the tip. With the new tool of DNA testing, along with deep knowledge and understanding of bloodlines, we're just now beginning to understand more of what we can't see.

I wish all the wannabe-stud dog owners could read and understand this post.


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## cliffson1

Carmen, you are right in that there are many other facets of the equation such as nutrition, phenotype, recessives/dominants, and studious analysis of the genetic component. And others.
I brought up this example as I figured it was simple to grasp, and easy for people to see why many times the solutions given are like a bandaid and do not address the underlying problem.
Many times I see hobby breeders that have a certain "preference" cloud their decision in breeding or acquiring lines. Case in point, if you have a breedingthat takes place, what are the elements of uniformity that you should seek to have a successful breeding? Man has brought so much imbalanceto the breed in the name of likes/preferencesthat are cosmetic.
Case in point.....The dominant color for German Shepherds is sable. 75% of the registered GS in Germany are Black and Tan or saddleback. How did sable become recessive in phenotype when it is dominant in genotype???It certainly didn't arise from balance.!


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## carmspack

Cliff I agree and I know what you are getting at . 

What kind of iceberg was Canto Wienerau -- ? 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

If people really understood this they wouldn't have maintained what they did through him in other countries. I have always felt that Germany bred a certain type of dog to market to the world for monetary gain and they developed another type with totally different genetics for work. Do you think it is a coincidence that none of the top working kennels in Germany have used Canto's lines or derivatives of his lines for decades. They know the money is in black and red and there is a vast world out there that places more value on the part of the iceberg they can see. That the continued breeding on these early same dogs leading to higher incidences of health and temperament problems doesn't bother them because they are exporting most of them for profit and keeping only enough for replenishment. 
Carmen, you know as well as I, 40 years ago, when there was no separation in lines and VA dogs were all colors and types, YOU could not buy a VA dog. During the sixties/seventies, we had Erko vom Dinkelland for a long time as the only VA dog in the country. They hardley ever parted with VA stock. But as soon as they developed this line off of Canto/Quanto....everything was for sale at the right price.
Oh Well!!


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> But as soon as they developed this line off of Canto/Quanto....everything was for sale at the right price.
> Oh Well!!


Are there still showlines that do not stem from Canto/Quanto?


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## cliffson1

Nope!


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## lhczth

And it is, unfortunately, very difficult to find even working line dogs that don't also carry some Canto.


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## cliffson1

That is true Lisa and exactly my point....if Canto is in a dog's pedigree one or two times 9 generations back, then it would indicate the breeders recognized his failings and moved away from going to anything with him in the future. Now if you go back 9 generations and find Canto 8 to 10 times vertically, then it means they kept on breeding to dogs with Canto as they progressed forward and therein lies the problem. No dog is perfect, and Canto had good traits to supplement a breeding for maybe one generation, to pick up those traits....but to use him in a dominant role with his high negatives in health and temperament???????I'm still waiting for some plausible explanation.
Its not the dog Canto, individually, that is bad, (though I would have only used him to insert some movement maybe ONCE), ITS the use of Canto repeatedly by breeders that created the issues. Often breeders take things personal when it comes to individual dogs, all dogs have good and bad in them....its how you use the dog that dictates breeding success.JMO


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## cliffson1

Also, you cannot breed with extensive linebreeding on "Great well rounded" dogs for long periods or you will still have these consequences occur, it will just be the unseen negatives the dog possesses. Dogs like Bernd v Lierberg, or Held v Ritterberg, or Mutz v d Pelztierferm, and Marko vom Cellerland, who were all very strong in temperament, structure, and producing temperament and structure in their progeny.....have all showed when breeders have tried to extensively inbreed or longterm linebreed, the results started producing high negatives in teeth, testicle, ear sets and ear standing, oversize, undersize, dullness, sharpness, short upperarms, etc. You see though, these dogs were balanced and strong in all of the areas of the iceberg that we see, they still carried negative recessives that when pounded together generation after generation...started to be dominants. Now these recessive negatives are dominant in the newly created dogs and the sad fact is they started ahead of the game in the beginning. Just food for thought; as some will only see Showline in these posts and not see the overall picture of the damage of indiscriminate breeding. (Of course some don't want to read this because its the basis of their breeding programs:wild:...lol)


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## Ponypip123

I'm having fun trying to research my dog's pedigree, and your posts are very interesting....I think "food for thought" is the key of this topic, because people will usually end up doing things for the dollar value, and bad characteristics will become inherent along the way. It would be very difficult to gather enough ethical breeders to cure these kinds of troubles....JMO.
Anyway, I actually am wondering what the registered name of the Canto that you are mentioning is, so I can research my girl's pedigree from that end too. (Just wondering if and how much "Canto" is in her.

Thanks for your interesting thoughts!


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## Chris Wild

Excellent thought provoking topic, Cliff!


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## Chris Wild

Pony,

The "Canto" is Canto von der Wienerau.


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## carmspack

Cliff the negatives that you mention with the Bernd Lierberg Mutz and Marko (all very strong in temperament ) such as ear carriage , ear erect reflect the herding heritage of the original regional dogs , essentially two of the four pillars , of the new breed at its outset , that being the wurtemburgers and swabian dogs working , herding and protection dogs . 
Within that genetic assembly were dogs with down ear carriage , a variety of coats from wave, slight curl, longer , harsh .
It was this victorian concept of breed -- which put external uniformity as top priority , which challenged local dog enthusiastics , the Phylax society , to "create" an externally uniform , prick eared dog , for competition. That was Victorian society. Virtually all breeds , standardized types, came out of the "muck" at that time. Once again Bred for Perfection -- fantastic little book -- .
Prick eared dogs came from the Thuringian region , with some wolf blood introduced to seal the deal and ensure that all important prick ear look. So the dogs that brought in the signature feature , prick ear, were problematic . To counter the nerve problems they had selected herding females , preferably with a natual prick ear , to breed to , hoping the next generation had temperament improvement and prick ears . There is your first ledge in the ice berg . 
I know how important the ear carriage is . On this very forum we see hand wringing and disappointment when ears are not up and or stay up -- and we see big celebrations when rexy's ears are up . Thank god because now there is no doubt when "other" people see the dog . He is what "I" paid for , a GSD. But the temperament might be all over the place. But he looks the part .
When dogs are in shelters/rescues the prick ear carriage assigns them some GSD blood somewhere , as if there are not hundreds of other dogs with prick ears -- .
Von Stephanitz laid the foundation for the first splits within the "breed", linebreeding on a temperamentally flawed trophy dog to fix a body type.
You can see 14th century statuary of St Francis of Assissi and at his feet for all to see is a dog who for all the world looks like an ideal smaller GSD . These dogs as performance dogs existed for hundreds of years. 

The Victorians would be proud of the cookie cutter uniformity of the SV's show dogs . From a distance they look like some computer generated image. 

So the question has been raised before about would "you" breed to a dog with less than perfect hips provided all else was there.

What is the thinking if the dog in question either has soft or droop ear , or has been known to produce them -- (male or female) -- but hips and temperament and drive - stellar . 

chipping away at an iceburg - 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta

Cliff...since we have Show Lines...Canto is prominent in their lines many generations back. I'm not willing to trash the entire show line bloodlines....so we will continue to breed discriminatively and with prejudice. (not looking to be a popular breeder...just a *solid* one.)

*I do read your posts....I always find them interesting, whether I respond or not.*
FWIW...I'm reading through the threads right now, sitting here with a good cup of coffee with my lil "head of lettuce".. Good morning Cliff!!


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## BlackthornGSD

You had me doing research last night. 

Some of the dogs that are most common in working pedigrees that have Canto are **** [haa! his name got censored out!] and Dixie v Adeloga and Argus and Aslan v Klamme. 

Canto:








V1 Canto von der Wienerau - German Shepherd Dog


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## BlackthornGSD

carmspack said:


> What is the thinking if the dog in question either has soft or droop ear , or has been known to produce them -- (male or female) -- but hips and temperament and drive - stellar .
> http://www.carmspack.com


I would--and have (Quattro v Spitzbubezwinger, a Nessel son, had very soft ears--they were up when he was alert, but if he relaxed, they folded). But always with a female with strong ears. I think it's easy to breed away from. I haven't linebred on Quattro--and I might never--but I've never yet had a puppy whose ears didn't stand up. (I did get some ugly earsets though!) It could still happen--I've only been breeding 15 years. And, unfortunate as it is--it causes no harm to the dog, it doesn't cause pain or injury or have any health consequences, and it doesn't affect that dog's ability to function as a companion or working dog--so it's a risk I'm willing to take.


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## NarysDad

cliffson1 said:


> Often breeders take things personal when it comes to individual dogs, all dogs have good and bad in them....its how you use the dog that dictates breeding success.JMO


I have to agree with your comment here cliff, I find while tracing lines there are often breeders of such dogs that are tight lipped when it comes to faults and only want to share the positive information on such dogs.

I really like hearing what you have to say about such dogs as you have no problem sharing your thoughts of such dogs whether they are good or bad and feel others like myself can learn much about the breed from members like yourself and a few others here too.

IMO there is no perfect German Shepherd and its thru our breeding that we can only hope betters the breed


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> Prick eared dogs came from the Thuringian region , with some wolf blood introduced to seal the deal and ensure that all important prick ear look. So the dogs that brought in the signature feature , prick ear, were problematic .


I keep hearing about wolf blood being introduced (or perhaps it was always there) during the genesis of the GSD. Some say it is a myth. Can you tell me where it is documented that wolf blood was introduced?


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## Andaka

BlackthornGSD said:


> You had me doing research last night.
> 
> Some of the dogs that are most common in working pedigrees that have Canto are **** [haa! his name got censored out!] and Dixie v Adeloga and Argus and Aslan v Klamme.


I didn't know that the Klamme dogs were working lines? Did you mean Klammle? they are show line dogs, and Asslan is a Canto son.


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## carmspack

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2201230

here is a Bernd heavy pup that Scuba Bob will be getting in the next week or so.
I have not had ear carriage problems .

I saw Asslan Klammle just after he arrived -- those were the days when groups of dog-friends would pile into a car and go to the airport to see the dog when he arrived . 
When Asslan made his debut , he slipped away --- and he ran and ran and ran (good structure) and ran and ran -- and went missing and everyone held their breath because the show grounds were parallel to a very busy highway . You needed a butterfly net to catch the dog. 
His sister Atrice was refused breeding rights in Germany , got exported into America where she finished her championship. I believe I saw her also --
Asslan's mother Zilly had problems with temperament . Apparently Argus was better .
There are some working dogs that do have Canto in the background. As Cliff said , they may have gone to him for one generations worth for some short cut structural fix . This includes Czech dogs and west German working lines . No problem in doing that - sometimes it is necessary .

Problem with Canto and his siblings (which were crazy, dysplastic and short lived) and his mother who it is written could not pass the breed survey because of her temperament , and Liane even failed to get her hip stamp -- makes you wonder how really bad they were that they were beyond the NZ , which is ofa "mild" . Canto's sire also suspect and questionable in temperament-- all written about in Wooton and Willis etc .
Canto's sister Cira was so shy she was refused breeding privileges. 
Canto only lived to 4 years of age . He produced roach backs, loose ligaments, poor too fine male heads , and colour paling. 
Poor Canto , he is himself a victim of the iceberg -- his sire , his grandsire , his dam all failing in temperament. - Brian Wooton -- Hein Konigsbruch and his sire Fix Sieben Faulen all doing poor man work -- and that is what we continue to see to this day in the man work phase of schutzhund . 
I mentioned somewhere else on this forum , not this particular thread , but elsewhere that some dogs move forward with active aggression and take care of an issue, others swing between fight and flight dodging in for the nip and then springing out of harms way -- or going into wild avoidance --- but there are some which almost have a conversion , turning the whole thing upside down and being clueless about what to do or why they are there ?!? I did say for the pet home this latter category would be the safest -- at least it is predictable -- do nothing .

Another Wienerau dog Berta Lorscher Sand Progency list for V Berta vom Lorscher Sand - German Shepherd Dog had temperament problems BUT and AND she produced that red pigment which is what every one who phones asks for . Hello , I am looking for a blackandredmale german shepherd . And it all goes back and back and back to decisions made by von Stephanitz to excuse temperament and favour Roland Starkenburg and the female he was inbred on with her trophy (thuringian ) background , Lucie Starkenburg.


These are the dogs at our breeds beginnings . You have to weave blocks of genetics in and throughout the years , bringing in character dogs all the time .

The show lines demonstrate an outbalance in staying in a very narrow range , selecting from mostly one strain -- 

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackthornGSD

Andaka said:


> I didn't know that the Klamme dogs were working lines? Did you mean Klammle? they are show line dogs, and Asslan is a Canto son.


Yes, sorry, I typoed the spelling--despite looking it up! (and, I would like to to go back and correct my post--I don't know what I was looking at, but **** and Dixie v Adeloga do not have Canto behind them! but I can no longer edit it.)

I'm not saying that they are "working lines" -- but if you go back in working pedigrees to see if they go to Canto, it's often through Argus that you reach Canto. But that's not the only path, obviously

For example, one of the top German dogs of the decade is Falk vd Wolfen's (and his full brother Cherokee) mom is Fina v Hainpark, whose mom is Wally ad Weinbergstal. Wally is behind a number of good working dogs, including Dasty v Hainpark. She's a top-producing female who produced top-producing dogs--so she's in a lot of working dog pedigrees. She has one line back to Canto through Irk vd Weinerau.

Hmmm. I don't know what I was looking at last night, but now I'm not finding the same dogs. ::headdesk:: Today, I'm having trouble finding working pedigrees that trace back to Canto. The ones that I do find usually have only one line that goes through Canto. So he's not that great of a bottleneck.

You do see a lot of working lines that go back to Mutz von der Pelztierfarm!


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> Its not the dog Canto, individually, that is bad, (though I would have only used him to insert some movement maybe ONCE), ITS the use of Canto repeatedly by breeders that created the issues.


The best thing for the breed would have been if Canto v.d. Wienerau had died at birth like his brother.  Just my not so humble opinion.


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## lhczth

Yes, you see Mutz, Marko Cellerland and Quanto Wienerau behind a lot of good working dogs. Unfortunately Marko fell out of popularity except for the working people.


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## carmspack

Klammle is not working lines.

Yes Wolf blood was introduced -- those were experiments done early on with the Phylax society which wanted to produce a sharp looking prick eared dog . Phylax Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
Pollux considered a protype of the breed resembled a wolf and according to some would have been bettered suited for a zoo exhibit than herding sheep. 
Some of the early dogs had controversy and cover-up surrounding them.
One reason for introduction of wolf blood was the attempt to stop distempers.
When I read some of the "Dog World" magazines going back to the 1920's you see how serious distemper , commonly known as hard pad back in the day , was. 
Well it seems like all the wags, the dandies about town wanted the novelty of the wolf hybrid , so breeding for commerce , for money , to meet demand began . A good little outside source of cash for hardworking herders . This is where and how Horand , the father to be of the breed , came about. This is long before rittmeister von Stephanitz appears in the picture. This dog was known as Hektor Linksrhein . When von Stephanitz clapped his eyes onto Hektor at a local exhibition , he knew this was the dog he had to have, this is the dog that idealized the concept of this new breed they were trying to form. And so he bought the dog and quickly changed the name to the name under which his breedings were to be recognized -- HORAND v GRAFRATH . From all that I have been able to read , whether English or German language , Hektor, Horand had really good temperament and could have contributed even better had von Stephanitz heeded the warnings of Sparwasser (his breeder?) and "So" Eiselen (both hard core career shepherds) . They told him point blank (I was not there -- but being point blank is rather teutonic) do not linebreed and do not inbreed . The wolf negatives will be brought to the fore. So what happens -- ?
Linebreeding , inbreeding , and the rest is history. 
von Stephanitz was a better organizer of people than a breeder. I wonder where things would have gone had Eiselen (Anton "So") , a master breeder of his era, been given greater influence.

that is the history of our breed - information gleaned over the years from authors Willis, Wooton , Barwig, Lanting , Schwabacher , DogSports magazine, GS Quarterly, SV magazine, oral tradition from the old timers --- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

sorry I was trying to provide a picture of Scuba Bobs very rigid eared pup , shown at 7 weeks of age and heavy in Bernd Lierberg and Marko Cellerland -- 
you can see him on the posts for DDR breeders 

Blackthorn -- I happen to have a Cherokee daughter peika of shepherd glen - German Shepherd Dog , the dam line being a seriously hard peika of shepherd glen - German Shepherd Dog -- breeding done same to same , no compensation needed ! 

The inclusion of Canto does not worry or bother me in this or other instances where he was included for something , even if it was to follow a trend, because then the breeders got out and went right back to bringing in valued lines for hardiness, and character . 

What was damaging is the building of the house of show lines with a cracked foundation . Has it or will it all topple down . When I look at dogs offered on the pedigree data base I am lost for words, yes, to see how deviant and crippled and vacant the dogs look , and am so sorry to see performance youtubes of protection at major , significant , show events , where dogs repell off the sleeve , avoid , or have no clue (there's that aggression conversion) what they are doing or why they are there.

Lisa --- I agree --- one thing that was not even mentioned was the introduction of bleeding disorder Haemophilia through Canto . He didn't have to whither away at birth , someone should have had some sense and said Stop , No . 

Carmen


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## cliffson1

Carmen and Lisa, you are right on point. You see all the things Carmen listed as weak with Canto and his siblings, and his parents, and his immediate progeny, (I too saw Asslan v Klamme showed under Ernie Loeb, he had a beautuful balanced sidegait, but you could see the unsureness in temperament.) and yet this dog(Canto), or his progeny is in more Showline pedigrees than any other dog. And people are still going to dogs with heavy backmassing on him. So the issues will not improve regardless of what the immediate dog you go to possesses if it is still saturated in Canto and his progeny. Its the "iceberg sydrome".
As for Marko, most of the breeders that I have learned from like to have this dog in their pedigrees. His downfall from the show world was his short upper arm, (but God was he balanced and that's why he won the World Seiger. A whole nother topic is when the show world went from rewarding extremely correct "balanced" dogs like Marko, to "only" rewarding extreme sidegaiters like Canto/Quanto. Notice the subtle shift from balance to extreme, in movement, also accompanied the downgrade from strong temperament to weaker temperament), and he produced blacks, bi-colors, when the powers that be only wanted to see "black and red". Even today, if you look at many of the V rated working lines, like the Maineche dogs you will find Marko vom Cellerland in the pedigree. Still a source of good working and good structure. Oh how many have tripped and bumped their heads in this breeding thing.lol


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## BlackthornGSD

Hey Carmen,

I sent you a PM with a question about a dog. 

Would you rather I use email?


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## martemchik

What I've gathered from this discussion is that you can't really blame the breeder. Its the judges and public opinion that gets these dogs to become so prominent in future generations. One judge can really influence the breed for decades. Imagine if a German Shepherd won best of show at Westminster due to its perfect look, that dog would be parenting every show dog for the next 5 years. Maybe I'm way off base, but I just can't blame the "iceberg breeder" completely, at the end of the day, money talks.

The thread has gone from discussing the current "iceberg breeders" to the history of the breed, which from the beginning had them. If I read it correctly, Max himself could be considered an "iceberg breeder." I like the points being made though, even though they are way over my head as I have not studied the pedigrees and history as much as everyone else.

I do have to say it is upsetting to see the recent influx of postings about dogs that have maybe proven stud worthy or will be trained and tested in the future but have a small issue with them and yet are being planned to stud. Its even worse when this is an aparent issue and not just one hidden in the genetics. In my opinion every potential stud owner should ask themselves, "Do I want future generations to suffer with this issue?" Most times the answer would be no, but sadly due to the market the answer will sometimes be yes.


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## carmspack

Cliff my entire breeding line began with Rallos Farmenblick a Marko son , and now connected through Dix Maineiche Carmspack Cubby - German Shepherd Dog double Marko Cellerland -- plus valuable Racker Itztal. 

Any pedigree that I have with "Rampa" who was a high in trial SchH 3 dog has Isar Steinacker also Marko. 

Threading Marko and Bernd / Racker / some "thuringian - Mutz etc in and out has done well for me.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Ponypip123

*Pony,

The "Canto" is Canto von der Wienerau.

*Thanks Chris, I'll be looking for him in my dog's ancestry!


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## carmspack

a breeder is at the helm , in charge , not operating out of the dictates of fashion.
The judges were / are breeders . Look at the enormous pressure there is , the huge demand for black and red dogs . Would I produce them to be part of the market place -- not a chance -- . 
A judge can influence the direction of a breed . So can a trainer, a method -- seen in the high prey in current sport .

Winners of Westminster or the British equivalent do influence breeding decisions . Then you get the horrible Cavalier spaniels , potentially the worlds best companion lap dogs with horrible excruciating seizures because their brain case is too small and pressure is put on the brain. Does anyone stop breeding to the popular , causative lines? No.

Stud dogs are made by owners of the bitches . They select the studs.


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## carmspack

the discussion has not shifted away from the image of the ice berg . All these things are the unseen , under the surface mass that can sink your ship . Know where this unseen mass is and you can navigate to the waters and shore that you want to arrive at . Deny it or go full speed ahead and you take your chances .

Carmen


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## W.Oliver

This thread should be required reading for anyone looking to even post the cliche thread...."I want to breed my GSD".


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## Freestep

W.Oliver said:


> This thread should be required reading for anyone looking to even post the cliche thread...."I want to breed my GSD".


That's what I was going to say, but you know that half the wannabe breeders won't give a frog's fat patootie about what their dogs may produce, they just want puppies, money, an ego boost, or for their child to witness the miracle of birth, or whatever. 

However, there is still hope for the other half!


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## dOg

As always, much to be learned or re-learned, as we look back in time to this 100 + years long dilemma. Everything Max worried aloud about as it was happening then still happens now, only now the gene pool is much larger, sadly made up of many more misfires than existed back then.

If only more folks cared to learn, and weren't out to just make a buck, things might be different, but I expect it the debates will go on, with plenty of examples of less than but pretty to impress those with more money than brains. 

Just saying, I so enjoy threads like this. Thank You!


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## sagelfn

I am posting to bookmark this thread. I'm learning a lot and loving it but much is still way over my head.

I do think many breeders are aware of a dog's faults but are blinded by greed. They do not have the integrity that I see in the breeders posting in this thread :thumbup:


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## RubyTuesday

> This thread should be required reading for anyone looking to even post the cliche thread...."I want to breed my GSD".


IMO, your run of the mill byb has done considerably less damage than the experienced, knowledgeable extremist breeders who have sacrificed so much in the quest for some bizarre 'dream conformation'. It's these breeders that have ultimately (& proudly) given us 1/2 dog, 1/2 frog or banana backed GSDs riddled with health & temperament problems. 

The situation is sadly very similar with many pb dogs. A glance at the Cavalier shows a dog that has been increasingly neotenized through the years. Even 20 yrs ago they looked quite different...longer, sharper muzzles, less rounded heads, eyes not as prominent. They were a pretty little dog who even then faced serious health problems (heart), but they weren't the k9 Kewpies they've sloooowly degenerated into. Syringomyelia is not yet completely understood, but that's almost irrelevant given breeders obvious disinterest in rigorously breeding away from this vicious, agonizing condition. People. Bleh.


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## W.Oliver

RubyTuesday said:


> IMO, your run of the mill byb has done considerably less damage than the experienced, knowledgeable extremist breeders who have sacrificed so much in the quest for some bizarre 'dream conformation'. It's these breeders that have ultimately (& proudly) given us 1/2 dog, 1/2 frog or banana backed GSDs riddled with health & temperament problems.


Agreed.


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## carmspack

I don't agree that byb do less damage . There is more to it than less damage .

There is little that they do to contribute to the greater good because they don't appreciate the breed enough to attain and maintain , to conserve and preserve them. The dogs are just dogs . Nature always takes the easiest path -- soon they will be a generic , pariah type -- . Whatever is popular , largely colour based is okey dokey.
You have to be familiar with the work -- what works , what is natural drive . You see in these discussions how important pedigree and breed history is .

The GSD was created for excellence in performance. The name stood for something. The breed stood for something . A kennels name stood for something .

All it takes is for a few brave people to stand and say that the emporer is naked .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## sagelfn

I think a BYB does more damage in the sense that they have changed what the breed is to most people. If it looks like a GSD that is good enough.

Breed standard, titles, pedigree papers, etc.. are for snobs. If you just want a pet you can get a GSD on craigslist or the newspaper.


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## cliffson1

I agree with Carmen and Ruby Tuesday. That's why I get so mad at some breeders using the BYB label every chance they get and as far as I'm concerned they are clinical BYB. 
To me one of the main problems with the reputable breeders of today is that they rely on clinical testing to allow themselves to be legitimate or reputable, and have not put in the due diligence in history, genetics, bloodlines, research, and anecedotal knowledge to make decisions below the waterline of the iceberg. All of the clinical testing is the visible part of the iceberg...the greatest part of the iceberg is always submerged. So if you are basically ignorant of these things below the visibilty line, there is more of the breeding that is not planned or directed. This results in stagnation or regression. Sure you will get one or two nice pups, but you will also get many with issues, that are often labelled as being abused as the causation. You ever notice how EVERY dog that comes out of a shelter with issues has been abused???? Bullmarlarkey!! Half of these dogs have genetic issues from poor breeding and many by reputable breeders. Breeders that breed the top of the iceberg and the bottom of the iceberg is tearing them up. Of course when the person rescues them from the shelter, there is usually an abuse story attached to the dog. Much of this is nothing but faulty breeding. Especially aggression and shyness issues. Sorry folks, but it true!!


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## carmspack

. It's these breeders that have ultimately (& proudly) given us 1/2 dog, 1/2 frog or banana backed GSDs riddled with health & temperament problems. 


STOP buying them. 

I can be real cynical , but realistically cynical on this one . The SV has treated working dog breeders so shabbily --- like a guest at a restaurant that is seated at the table next to the rest room or the wait staffs work area . While the others get the window seats . They are jealously guarding their silly black and red dogs . It has gotten to the point where there are only "saddle" dogs, not even blanket , few black and tans and certainly NO sables , although sable was the original colour.
Some years back there was a sable male entered in the BSZS , the year end national show of shows were the nations top physical specimen is crowned "Sieger" . Well if the crowd didn't stand and boo -- Fred Lanting wrote quite a bit about this event as did a British spectator . VA1(ÖST) 2XVA2(BSZS) Timo vom Berrekasten - German Shepherd Dog -- Timo Berrakasten . 
Sadly this craze for the black and red dog has encouraged the cheaters , fighting for more red, deeper red , with dye , or photo enhancement . 

Instead of keeping and improving a positive quality people want to take it to an exaggeration . So many American show dogs with their long limbs fore and aft , and roomy reach at the "flying trot" have no period of suspension . When I look at SV lineups I don't see the period of suspension there either . This means there should be a period where only one or none , feet are making contact with the ground. For that brief moment the dog flies through the air . When examining the previously mentioned samples there are often 3 feet on the ground at any given time . Look for it and you will see it . I have a picture in mind but I don't want to do breeder bashing --- can we do it , will it be all right ?

When moving the GSD should have a level back . This is what it looks like 
SG1 Kessy vom Waldwinkel - German Shepherd Dog this is what it looks like "von Lord Fandor" enjoy this one 





 
The roached back goes well beyond an arch being the strongest structure spanning two points. A roach should have a gentle arch . Dogs we see now look like they have a hinge. The forward reach is hackneyed.

In any case with all this , temperament and character and working ability have gone well in to the backgound .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta

I think by learning from the mistakes of the past...we can be better equiped for the future. JMO


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## cliffson1

Robin, Ya know I luv ya, but I have to call you on this. What are the mistakes of the past in the show world that has led to improvements for the future? Could you give us some details, on the way it was in the past, and how the evolution has improved, now resulting in improvement for the breed.?????
Again, this isn't just a showline topic, many workingline breeders are missing the point. But the underlying reasons are different than for showlines. Often working line breeders have much knowledge of the history of the breed, they do their research, and they keep up with the different progeny and producers/nonproducers to shape their breeding decisions. More importantly, the workingline breeders have one built in advantage over the showline and that ultimately the quality of their dogs is determined by empirical knowledge as opposed to preference knowledge. 
One of the biggest hinderances to breeding today is that the type of dogs that really represent the best of the breed, are never used today. By this I mean dogs that were bred and raised to do practical work. Ego and Status so greatly affect the choice of breeding partners that it is a crime. That happens with both working and show. When do you ever see a top hobby breeder use a dog that is a police dog, a real herding dog, or an untitled dog , or even a dog that is tiitled in another discipline.(like KNPV,SAR,PSA,
or UD or HGH. You ever see working or show people import HGH dogs from Europe to open up their lines and bring much needed genetic traits that we are losing. Very very very seldom. Oh you hear the usual reasons, the police dogs aren't standardized in performance, their are many police dogs that aren't that good...blah,blah,blah....DUH....and there are many Sch/IPO dogs that aren't very good???? Get your arse out there and see them and research this element. What about bloodlines in Europe that still preserve the herding factor, dogs that still work flocks today and their lines....no effort made to seek these dogs....and on and on and on, Sweden has superior dogs in that country but very seldom do people look to their dogs(and I think primarily that Sweden has developed their own testd for the working dogs that still requires dogs to do intuitive thinking.) WHY folks????? because we are so caught up in titles and certs that have become our gods in breeding that whole segments of good genetics are not being used and the irony is this segment uses the traits of the breed that really should be preserved. I go to police dog trials and they are open to the public....you know how many German Shepherd breeders you will see at those trials?????? Practically none. We are obsessed with breeding with the top of the iceberg, because it is easier, it is easier to explain to and sell for profit, it doesn't require the due diligence, and it allows breeders to cover their lack of knowledge about the breed. 
When breeders start becoming craftsman again, being thoroughly knowledgable of their craft, their tools, their history, and breed for the breed and not for specific venues....let me say that again because many of you didn't process that...and breed for the breed and not specific venues.....then the overall health and welfare of the breed will improve, imo.


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## robinhuerta

Cliff...I understand your points and I do agree with many of them....I'm not going to debate anything SL vs WL. I believe this breed has gone on *many* paths that have caused the problems we see today.
Learning from the past mistakes is a complete observation....in regards to this breed as a whole.
I can't change what has already been done in the past....I , as a breeder today, can only try to make a difference in what dogs I choose to breed now and in the future.
I *am* a SL enthusiast because I *choose* particular venues to perform in......not because I have no value for temperament or soundness. *Quite contrary actually*.
I believe we "reap what we sow".....and as long as breeders make a path through the genetic knots, traps and dead ends...we can still produce good, sounds dogs that represent this breed....be it WL or SL.
I am not a Schutzhund sport enthusiast....I do not have the personal time to sacrifice to it, but I respect others that choose to perform in the sport. 
Your ideals and knowledge (along with others) are a wonderful tool and resourceful gift to many of us....and I thank you for that.
However;......I do not believe that the SL dogs should be "banned" or not used for breeding because the consensus of some are that they are complete genetic monstrosities....
I think crap is crap period.....and yes...the SL dog has alot of baggage, and the breeders of yesterday *started* the domino effect....but it is up to breeders of today & tomorrow, to put our foot forward and produce mentally & physically strong dogs, *capable* of the tasks required for this breed....WL or SL.

Again, you are entitled and (rightly justified) to your views, and I do respect them....


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## robinhuerta

Also Cliff....
I would have no problem with breeding to or from an untitled dog (I already have)...or a dog titled other than Schutzhund.
I have never believed that a title made a dog.....the dog and it's genetics make the dog. FWIW


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## Betty

Been googling, is this one of the tests you are talking about with the Swedish?

Mental Description of dog - a canine character test - as performed by ( Svenska Brukshundsklubben ) - the Swedish Working Dogs' Oganisation

I've come across several genetic papers also, that I've bookmarked and am going to read.


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## cliffson1

@ Betty....Yes that's part of it ...read up on it and think about what it encourages in the breed. The point is these people have breen breeding great dogs for past 40 years, but many don't have titles and understanding of titles that breeders can market....so except for a few breeders these resources go untapped.
@ Robin, I luv ya twice...lol and I like what you are trying to do in your program....but lets dissect your response. This is about "iceberg breeding" and not SL dogs. There is no problem with a person liking to show dogs or liking show dogs, that isn't an issue. I like show dogs also. 
I asked for how there has been learning and improvement in the show world over the years. You neatly sidestepped giving me any specific examples or instances to support that supposition. I am curious as to HOW the breeders are making a path through the knots and twists of the show world when the dogs look the same and are the same cousins and Uncles and Aunts to the dogs that we are speaking about. I'm curious as to how people get around the "dead ends" you spoke about.
So how do we put the foot forward to come out of this malaise????,or do you think it doesn't exist like global warming??
I mean I really hear you, and it sounds good....I'm just looking to hear the formula or process....I don't want to become insane(lol...you know the definition of insanity...do the same thing with the same tools and expecting a different result).
Just looking to be educated on "HOW" you see this improving in terms of actions.


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## cliffson1

I know some of the people are thinking that without Certs and titles how will breeders know good breeding stock and how will buyers know quality dogs???? There is a small amount of merit to that feeling, if money and status and ego were not so prominent. If titles were more reflective of dogs working instead of people training it would help. 
But the reality is everyone should not own a German Shepherd, and breeders should not breed down to the public's wishes. Also, everyone should not be breeding German Shepherds unless they really have an understanding of the breed particularly the bottom of the iceberg. 
My initial post on this subject was really to get people to think when they are planning to breed or buy. You see folks, there is a lot of people out here doing quote/unquote research but they don't know what is important to be researching. Some things are not going to consistently pass genetically, some things are! Some things are hard to acheive genetically, some things are easy to lose. Some things are hyped by media and the desire to sell dogs, and some things are the basis for consistently producing good dogs. The more people are familar with the bottom of the iceberg,(especially breeders), the better decisions that will be made. If people represent something to you they should be able to show a clear path to that being the case. JMO


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> If titles were more reflective of dogs working instead of people training it would help.


Can you elaborate a little? (I understand a good trainer and handler can make a dog look better than it is temperament wise)

How would you test a dog for working ability?


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> If titles were more reflective of dogs working instead of people training it would help.


I know what you mean... training can mask temperament flaws, and trials are highly ritualized to the point where you can get a flawed temperament to pass. But what else do we have to go by? Real-world working dogs, police, SAR, etc. tell a lot more about the dog than trial titles, IMO, but I suppose it's not practical from a breeding standpoint to require real world working titles.


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## VomBlack

cliffson1 said:


> Some things are not going to consistently pass genetically, some things are! Some things are hard to acheive genetically, some things are easy to lose.


So for people to become more informed in regards to what you mentioned, that would come with actually going out and meeting as many dogs/breeders and watching them work vs. word of mouth? I know for me personally I try to at least read what I can and ask around online in the meantime when i'm not able to go out and learn firsthand.


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## carmspack

But the reality is everyone should not own a German Shepherd, and breeders should not breed down to the public's wishes. 

so said Cliff .

I agree. That is why I shook my head when I read this "We Breed Tempered Quality Structured German Shepherd Dogs"

_ what? dogs with nerves of tempered steel ? __ never mind , on we go back to quotes 

"We bred the "working line" German Shepherd and found that the people who bought our German Shepherd puppies could not handle the "high drive" energy level that they had ."

___ so why not tell these people as you are screening them that perhaps the breed is not for them -- don't sell them the dog . __

quote again 
"They also did not have the sound structure or temperament so badly needed for pet homes"

___ oh cover my mouth !!! what the -- since when is a physical standard determined by the needs of a pet home ?? What does that mean. Breed dogs with extra padding to enjoy being a couch potato , design them so they can't run fast ? Since when is not a sound structure of prime importance to the working dog who has to , with energy , and ease , perform without injury or without handicap . Need to jump tall fences, need to run all day (like Kessy Waldwinkel), need to cover ground to apprehend or track -- structure -- totally necessary . They did not have the temperament ? Versatility and utility are the keystones of the breed . A working dog without good temperament is not a working dog.

"so we decided to breed a better tempered , more quality structured German Shepherd dog".


ah me , Not everyone should own a GSD. The breed and it's future should not be dictated by the ideals of pet owners . The breed should not be dummed down. The breed should not be some external black and red look like a GSD act like a Golden Retriever dog . 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje

cliffson1 said:


> You ever see working or show people import HGH dogs from Europe to open up their lines and bring much needed genetic traits that we are losing. Very very very seldom.


I agree with you that it is seldom (but I think also due to the fact that the availability of HGH training is "seldom"). I have to say one of my favorite show line dogs, both in conformation, temperament, work, and what the dog has produced is a 12-time HGH dog imported from Germany. She is no longer breeding (I think she's about 10 years old, but IMO doesn't look a day over 6). When the breeder I purchased Nikon from started with German lines she imported this bitch from Karl Fueller in Germany. The bitch is the HGH class BSZS Siegerin but more importantly as I understand was Karl's working dog. But you're right, people just want SchH titles and hip scores....


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## crisp

I often come on the Forum and leave after a couple of minutes after seeing more of the same old minutiae. I often wonder why I even come back, but then I come across a discussion as this one. Thank you guys for sharing your insight and knowledge. Some of you are truly remarkable when it comes to the breed. I understand the discussion is about breeders and I'm not contributing much of anything, but just wanted to say that its people like you, with the knowledge, understanding and care that offer the most hope for the future of the breed.


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## carmspack

black muffets -- I did it again . Had a nicely organized response and hit "back" and it got erased . 

Anyway , Cliff , unfortunately importing a modern HGH dog is more of the same old same old -- show lines , with a title. Ask the real herding people what they think. I know that you already know the answer.

I was saying that it is entirely possible to accumulate heritage herding lines which largely stem from the wurtemburgers , which includes B Lierberg . You used the analogy of an iceberg representing close but unseen danger . I will use a basement. The better the foundation the better the house. 
In my pedigrees I always deliberately bring in real herding genetics . Racker Itztal (Pirol Kirschental) is an important resource , Vello Sieben Faulen, Don and Bonnie Clausberg , Valet Busecker Schloss, Uwe and Uran Kirschental , Frei Gugge, Winni Geiersnest , Pushkas haus Himpel , Asco Rauberhauptmann (Marko C & Pushkas) Marko Cellerland, Kai Silberbrand, Marko Abtei Eck , Jago Lindenhalle , Tarbes Knufken, Arthus Lunsholz , Bert Knufken, well placed Greif Lahntal who has Bert Knufken , Harro Lechrainstadt , Birke Lindenhalle, Lord Gleisdreieck , Greif Lahntal (Dreschler) , Winni Geiersnest, Enno and Perry Beilstein, 

one pedigree which represents old herding genetics very well is Griswald van Xazziam - German Shepherd Dog 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

I tried to get a dog going back to the old Haus Kind breeding....from German Judge and producer of the Haus Kind herding lines.


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> I know some of the people are thinking that without Certs and titles how will breeders know good breeding stock and how will buyers know quality dogs???? There is a small amount of merit to that feeling, if money and status and ego were not so prominent. If titles were more reflective of dogs working instead of people training it would help.


Just to argue the other side--this isn't a good reason *not* to have a title on a breeding dog. I am not talking about schutzhund titles--I'm talking about any sort of certification or title that shows that the dog left the owner's property and *did* something--someone put enough time into that dog to train it, to evaluate it, to have the dog seen in the public. 

When I am looking to buy a puppy (for myself or to recommend to someone else), I very much want to see a title on the parents--some sort of title--herding, rally, SAR certification, K9, etc. (And I want to see formal hip/health certifications--not just, "I xrayed this dog and liked what I saw.")

All too often (not always!) the lack of any sort of titling goes hand-in-hand with the lack of any sort of training or impartial evaluation of the dog being bred.


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## carmspack

Hi Cliff can you remember at all what the dog was pedigree wise . The haus Kind is a familiar name .

Carmen


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## cliffson1

Christine, I am not saying that a title is a bad thing, its very nice, but I don't use titles to make decisions on breeding dogs. I don't even look at the title to be honest. Last male I just imported in, had a Sch 1 on the father....didnot make one iota difference whether he had a one or three. Plenty of people see it the way you do, I just don't. Doesn't make me right. Same with hips, there is no magic seer to evaluate hips. Least I don't think so....the actual expression of the hips in comparison to the history and siblings and parents really weigh more heavily with me then two people disagreeing on good and excellent hips. 
I understand your need for titles and certs, heck all the breedable dogs in Germany have titles and certs, yet 75% of the dogs in Germany I would never breed to. 
At the end of the day I think we get the dog we deserve by and large.


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## jmdjack

Awesome thread! Cliffson1, Carmspack, Blackthorn, et al. please keep it up; I, for one, am taking notes. 

Carmspack, Haus Kind triggered a memory from my research (I don't know the dog):
DDR German Shepherd Eicke following is the pedigree:
SG Eicke vom Haus Kind - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

Yes, I waited three years for a puppy out of Eiche v h Kind. I really like to bring those type of dogs into the mix. Thinking dogs!! Aren't great sport dogs, but overall bring a lot to the table.


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## robinhuerta

Hello Cliff....
First...I'm not here to defend *breeders* of any bloodline, or to preach what others are doing or not doing. What accomplishments they have made or not made....what avenues or gauntlets they are over coming....
I can only answer for myself, because I am the person I must answer to.
Dogs we choose to use in *our* breedings are of sound body & mind. *We* decide if a breeding occurs...which lines, which individual dogs, what we need or do not need.
Since the bloodlines are so congested, it is the breeders job to find the approprite dogs to use and which ones to avoid.
This is your thread....I simply tried to state that by learning from the mistakes of the past...we (as breeders) can strive to do better in the future.

My last post to this....choose to make of it what you will....I can live with it.


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## wolfstraum

Finally got the time to sit and read this thread – am usually on a quick here and gone on this forum…but have been discussing it on the phone with someone keeping up on it….

First – there is some great information here….info I have heard here and there brought together….Thank you Cliff and Carmen for establishing in one place so much info about the origins of the breed!

I like the term "iceberg" - it can apply in so many ways! So many breeders even now want to say, don't worry about that, it is in the 5th generation - it does not matter!

I heard or read early on in my research on breeding and lines about Marko Cellarland being one of the 3 main bloodline and “lost” to the showbreeders when the Martins chose to take the breed in the direction of the black and red modern showdog. I have always remembered this statement, maybe from Ricardo Cajabal (sp?) in an mid 90’s USA article???? Cliff mentions Maineiche kennels as a source for that bloodline…in recent years, they have lost the tail male line directly to Marko, keeping it more through their females and breeding out to popular males rather than males coming down through generations of their own program….Xento is in so many good dogs pedigrees, like Aly Vordersteinwald, but now so far flung….I had it, and lost it to a tragic combination of I felt was stress and vaccine induced cancer when I lost my black sable Xito son, Cito, last summer. When Bob Barrett bought Xito Maineiche, he was told that there was too much breeding on Fero and that Xito would bring balance to Fero dogs (this was the late 90s!). When I wanted a Xito son, I had 2 litters to choose from, and chose wrongly – the other had no Fero, and the Fero intensified female line relatives of my Xito son show many issues. The qualities I wanted were in the dog, so I bred to Xito, getting my C litter who carry so many of the dogs Carmen mentions. With some frozen semen in storage, there will be another Xito litter with no Fero someday! 

I also had a super stud male prospect with many of these lines from an Aly son, but lost him through some very stupid nonsense and although he has had a few litter – greatly improving upon the 2 females I know of bred to him, in structure, temperament and health, his potential will never be utilized correctly. Dam was linebred on Mutz and Racker, a Brix Kapfwald dtr. 

The last 2 weeks I have been looking at breeding combo after breeding combo with a couple of people whose females are coming in heat, as well as a couple for my own Csabre and Hexe. Frustrating to the others, I seem to constantly bring up problems rather than validate their ideas! I look backwards for backmassing and peripherially through dogs who have sibilings who have issues…IMO – it is all a matter of what level of risk you want to accept….there are negatives everywhere…but how likely are you to get the negatives, and to what extent??? They are looking at what is expressed the males, ignoring what is behind them…..even saying male x has ‘some nerviness’ and expecting their female to compensate for it….and so we go around and around about the risk of poor nerve….Everyones Goals are different for some, power and grip a priority, nerve can be trained around….but I push for the whole enchilada! I would go for fair hips from a strong hip family for example, over a dog with a pedigree I see nerve issue in, and a male who shows them on the field….it is all a matter of priority in the breeder and their level of comfort with the risk for negatives.

Going to some of the comments on SL….anyone looking at a SL pedigree has to see the heavy backmassing in every one of them. Hip issues???? LOOK at the back massing , look at every dog in the 5th or 6th generation….Jeck Noricum is the Lance of FranJo of the WGSL!!! The nerves and temperament for work is RARELY seen. Prey, conditioning and judging allow these dogs to receive breeding credentials. One on one observation with a critical eye will tell the truth. Personally have seen many V and several VA dogs train/work…..there is an art to it….and the owners and breeders cannot - will not- objectively compare the SL to the WL on the field, they don’t CARE! Their priorities are the show ring ratings and placings and work is only a stepping stone to get those. Even breeders who swear they have true working dogs in their SL dogs are blind to the difference, that desire for the black and red “pretty” dog truly makes them believe they have working ability. They do not define it the same way WL people define it – no pressure, all play, no surprises. The way out is not going to be popular – start bringing in the WL to the SL breedings, use the sable dogs to thin out the hold the backmassing has on the current SL dog…Timo WAS part working on his dam’s side!!

As far as BYB – the problem is that there has been mass production of the GSD for the pet market who admire the look, but won’t spend the money for a well bred dog, so there is a big market for the $300- $800 puppy…the people who want the Corvette, but can only afford, or won’t spend more than for the 2nd hand Kia (what is the current bottom of the market car???)….the majority of dogs bred in this country…the poor temperaments because of random breedings for generations for the pet market resulting in the deaths of so many genetically defective dogs who are put down for temperament and health flaws, dumped off somewhere or in shelters, rescues begging for help and money to save them….so sad!!! They (rescue active people) beg breeders NOT to breed, -support legislation against breeding to stem the production of so many disposable lives, they support PETA ……BUT I don’t WANT a GSD who does not have the solid nerves, good temperament and working ability that good breeders produce! OK – my own rant here!!!

So much in this thread to think about…so much great information! Sorry for jumping all over!


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## cliffson1

@ Lee...good post...I agree with you on your assessment and your solution. I think the readers on the forum appreciate your explanation and can connect the dots if they have a mind to.
@ Robin...I started the thread, yes, but when you made a statement about learning from mistakes in the past to improve today...I just asked for examples or an explanation of what you meant. This thread has discussed breeding practices that apply, regardless of SL or WL ,so when you weighed in with a statement I asked for clarification as i didn't understand how or if this has taken place. I don't remember this thread being about YOUR breeding program or what YOU do, I might have missed it and apologize if it was. I thought folks were having an adult conversation about some paths to improving and enlightening others to breeding practices....good and bad. No need to reply, I understand, this thread is basically for people who desire to discuss and learn about breeding practices...there are many who already have THEIR thing figured out, so its all good.


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## Samba

In this same vein, I was reading an article by Diane Silver-Strausser, an ASL breeder.
She likened breeding only the dogs you see without deeper genetic undetstanding, to leaping off the high dive into a kiddie pool.

When she did a twelve generation pedigree on her first breeding, she found a huge backmassing on Axel v d Deininghauserheide. I see such backmassing of genetics in show line pedigrees often. Is this from desire to set type, a too limited choice of studs, a desire to do like the others in order to win?

Does this tpe of backmassing occur in working lines? 

Now, some people are looking for a way out from the tight tunnel in their lines. But, the separations have been so large, how hard is it to investigate the "iceberg" you might tap in to?


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## wolfstraum

I love the high dive kiddie pool analogy!!!

I think there are a couple of reasons for back massing: to set type is the primary goal and as generations go forward, larger and larger numbers of breeding dogs of that "type" are available, and win, and continue to be used, slowly suffocating lines to dogs who may be just as good or better, but are not the current "fashion". The type that becomes desirable wins, and more line breeding is done and as generations progress, more backmassing. Line breeding to get certain characteristics like ear set, mask, depth of pigment, going with the linebreeding idea seems to have been that if a little was good, more is better...and as years go by, the type is set, and the winning, therefore dogs who get bred, seem to all go back to the same dog - whether it was Canto or Jeck - and even more backmassing occurs. Prioritizing certain specific physical characteristics of "anatomy" and choosing that over all other while backmassing on dogs with temperament flaws noted above has now resulted in a "pretty" (and remember, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder!!!!) dog with very compromised working ethic. As far as many considering "backmassing" - there is too much of the mentality that if it is past the 3rd or 4th generation, it does not matter...so it is done over and over

I think there is more backmassing behind DDR dogs due to the Iron Curtain years than other types of WL dogs....it is NOT as intense as WGSL in the WG working linesL - and you will see the Germans going to Czech dogs (Gent od Polizie for example was used a good deal) and to Belgian dogs - Troll v h Malinda and Tom Leefdalhof are sprinkled throughout the WGWL kennels....and some DDR like Lord....so there is a bit more diversity....at one time, I was told, Sagus Busecker Schloss was used so extensively, it was hard to find dogs without him, now that has happened with Fero ....and to a lesser extent Mink. You will also see Czech breeders using German and Belgian dogs, as I was told that they also have bred themselves into too narrow a gene pool....a czech pup I imported for a board member last year is by Zico Adelegg (2? 4th in the BSP??? out of a daughter of ****** Mohnwiese (Belgian x WG cross) and a Czech female Bemoan Bee (who has 1980s show lines and WL)! Truly a diverse pedigree!

I still think that YES - you must look at the individual to whom you are breeding!!!! Know the pedigree, see what has come forward from his family, see if he has the compensatory qualities you want, whether pretty head, better grips, better feet, more depth of pigment, and YES - WL breeders SHOULD care about these things, but not to the detriment of the character and work ethic. Know the family....say if a male is producing males with missing testicles for example, and in your female's sire lines, this is known to have happened, DON'T do the breeding! Or if you do, be prepared to place males with one or zero testicles! Reverse it, still the same - don't do the breeding for the sake of the stud fee....pass on it! 

There are ways out of the tunnel - but it takes buyers to educate themselve and who look past how many BSP/WUSV dogs are in the first 3 generations, who are NOT looking for the pup to have the same bloodlines as every other dog they see, who are not kennel blind and have to have a dog by XXXX because he is the latest big deal (even tho he is so unclear in the head it spins around like in the exorcist movie at the sight of a sleeve! But he has a fantastic trainer! LOL LOL) or so impressed by a fancy website and big prices that they figure the dogs must be the best!

Lee


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## cliffson1

Lee, another informative post that lays out some of the issues and difficulties in breeding. 
@ the Board....When I started this thread I was hoping for some constructive dialogue on many of the breeding aspects that are not so apparent from just looking at two dogs and their bonafides. I was looking into objectively discussing these things and also learning new things as people like Lee, Carmen, Christine, and Lisa have brought up things that I will factor into my knowledgebase. 
This thread was never SPECIFICALLY about either showlines or workinglines or specific dogs, but it was about using some specific dogs and the evolution of certain lines to demonstrate the principle and hypothesis that I was puttin forth. It was never never about a singular breeder, and though many breeders of SL or WL may have felt it targeted their programs, believe me the thread was about the practices and not individuals. 
I thank everyone for the input, and hopefully it was as beneficial to some as it was evidently painful to others.
Wasn't meant that way...peace!


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## carmspack

the very concept of "breed" requires some backmassing in the early day's of it's development for the sake of setting an obvious , distinctive external uniformity. This is what sets type . The mechanics are the same whether that public registry breed is a jack russell or a st. bernard or some of the very new modern inclusions shown under "rare breeds" --- not that they are rare as important or declining (some breeds have been "rebuilt") but for the fact of at the moment limited numbers.
What you are backmassing on is important and will impact future generations. There has to be some demonstration of care and responsibility for the welfare of the breed, not rampant run away schemes for personal glory or gain . 
I think the Martin reign has much to answer for . Thanks to them we have two populations which are now genetically distinct, to the point where the GSL is a virtual breed unto itself having satisfied the requirements for breed status . This includes breeding on so many generations to produce a uniform external "look" also the same for a temperamental expectation. 
You have heard "cookie cutter" used as a description of the uniformity . The bloodlines are basically the same no matter who the sire or dam are, or what the first three generations show you. There are no alternative lines .
To reduce the possibility for diversity the lines are even more reduced because breeders will select only the top , either V 1 Sieger or top few VA , V rated dogs.
This makes it difficult for a more obscure , but possibly valuable animal to be overlooked.

Sport dog breeders are guilty of the same , using the BSP Sieger or some famed animal -- so every one flocks to the same sire , whether there is improvement on the next generation or long term logical planning in place. 

Everyone wants to have a piece of the winner. Second place ? who? . 

Sales are easy, demand is there .

Have a look at 



 pay attention to V9 who is shown in movement . Does that look like V Dingo v haus Gero 



 -- out reaching level motionless back . not a chance. 
Now look at this 



 do you see that the banners for this event even show an outline , a graphic representation of the GSD altered not to represent the ideal , but to represent the reality !! that is how "normals" and "acceptables" get shifted . (not the silhouette of the bull with his fine under carriage) . Look at V8 totally missing the bite although the decoy is moving forward to give him the sleeve . If the dog doesn't move the decoy will fall on him and then the crowd will draw in their breath , oh look he took the decoy down . Look at V 10 , does that look like Dingo Gero in movement . Hackneyed front action. 
Here are the samples showing that the rear feet do not leave the ground 



 . There is more motion and popping to the backs then bedsheets being given a shake when doing up the bed -- the tails are dead below the spine and tight on the anal area (fistulas) (see Dingo tail continuing from spine and acting as a rudder) . Here is Dingo in real time -- note the feet lifting and driving 



 
I am going to use the pedigree of a real life , actual dog. You will not find out what the name of that dog is , or who the sire or dam are . I will be dealing with the dogs 3rd generation only , using that generation in a vertical manner showing you the intense line/in breeding on only 3 or 4 dogs , the majority being Canto Wienerau, Quanto Wienerau and their offspring.

Pakros d Ulmental VA1 Pakros d' Ulmental - German Shepherd Dog
Look at his linebreeding . Zamb 4 5 4 , Zamb himself is linebred Quanto 5 4 . 
Odin Tannemiese VA1 Pakros d' Ulmental - German Shepherd Dog linebred Canto 5 4 55 , Quanto 4 5 , 
Cello Wienerau V3 Cello von der Römerau - German Shepherd Dog linebred Canto 45 5 
Ussi Wienerau V20(BSZS) Ussi von der Wienerau - German Shepherd Dog linebreeding Canto 5 5 5 

Continuing with the female Pakros was bred to Rangoon du Haut Mansard VA2 (F) Rangoon du Haut Mansard - German Shepherd Dog
linebred on Zamb 55 5 and Uran Wildsteiger Land 5 5 who is himself linebred Quanto 45 5 

Next down in this vertical column , sliding down the family tree is Filou v Quartier Latin V Filou vom Quartier Latin - German Shepherd Dog who is Cello Romerau 44 4 -- remember Cello is Canto 45 5 , Uran Wildsteiger Land 55 545 and Natz Hasenborn 5 55 who is Canto 3 4 

HIs mate was Fee v d Ajona Hutte V11 Fee von der Ajona Hütte - German Shepherd Dog Uran 5 4 5 .

So far we have covered the contribution of the 3 rd generation on the sire's side.

The dam's , 3rd generation is V Odin vom Niederforstbach - German Shepherd Dog
Odin Niederforstbach here is his linebreeding Hasel Tannenmiese 5 55 , who is Canto 3 44 . Uran Wildsteiger Land 55 55 .
Brother , sister Quina 54 and Quando Arminius 5 5 5 linebred Quanto 3 5 . Nice back on Quina , if you are a dromedary camel ! 
Fedor Arminius 5 4 VA7 Fedor von Arminius - German Shepherd Dog who is Quanto 4 4 5 Canto 44 5 
Mark Beck 4 5 3 while Mark Beck is Quanto 55 4 and Canto 55 5 

Dam portion SG1 NL BSZS Assi vom Haus Weiler - German Shepherd Dog Assi haus Weiler --- Uran Wildsteiger Land 44 5 

Hillo de Marne la Valee VA1 CAN SGR Hillo de Marne la Vallee - German Shepherd Dog
Uran 4 4 . Irk Arminius 5 4 5 (Quanto) , Quando Arminius 4 4 (Quanto) Xaver Arminius 55 5 . Palme dam of Uran 555 55 . Vax Wienerau 5 5 , who is Canto 3 3 . 

Finally the final entry , the female Hillo was bred to SG Maxi vom Wiesenborn - German Shepherd Dog
Well there is a whole load of repetitive linebreeding here . Here goes . Hasel Tannenmiese is Canto 3 44 . Next Uran Wildsteiger Land 54 55 (Quanto) Quando 55 (Quanto 3 5) Fedor Arminius 4 45 while Fedor himself is Quanto 4 4 5 and Canto 4 4 5 . Palme 5 5 

For added interest here is the linebreeding on this females (maxi) mother V Ulme vom Wiesenborn - German Shepherd Dog

Special for Laurel , here is an illustration of a roach (hinged back) Male for sale: Top young male for sale from Negus & Ilbo line (id: 122225) - German Shepherd Dog

The animal I used for the pedigree investigation was solely for use of a pedigree available on line . No comments regarding problems or potentials -- no comment on "quality" .

The animal is typical of the back massing on show line dogs , in that regard he is not exceptional. 

The problem with this back massing is that it is so intense that there are basically two families , Canto Wienerau and Quanto Wienerau . Canto did not come from ruggedly healthy , mentally sound/stable , temperamentally confident , hip safe or reduced risk background. Hemophilia is attributed to Canto . When you have a dog that is nervous of disposition , and stresses easily , then you get digestive problems. Mind and body linked . An immune system that is stressed has difficulty staying well and balanced , ages prematurely , has reduced reproductive vigor , just does not do well.
The breed began not with pampered "hot house" dogs , but dogs that WORKED in all weather, snow , rain, muddy fields , hard glare of the sun. They needed to have mental and physical stamina -- a work ethic. They moved along in yearly transhumance migrations , probably slept in sheds or in the open , had their whelp in straw lined boxes .

This natural rearing , eating the off cuts , the gristle , the left overs , working in the natural ebb and flow of daylight and dark (makes a difference in hormones), living in the open exposed health problems, which were detrimental to "work" and so were culled, not bred. 

I am sure there will be more 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Teach Lady Teach!!!! For those who are really looking to learn based on facts and example there is so much there to be digested. Don't hate the player...hate the game!!
Now we need some video of the dogs working Sch in the 70's and the way it is done today. So people can see the difference in a Sch trial to determine breed suitability and a Sport trial which is what we have today.
See in order to understand some of the dialogue, you first have to have a good idea of what the breed should be capable of and doing routinely. Without that understanding, you have no way of knowing how far off kelter the breed has gotten, and you certainly can't purposely move toward a direction you are not aware of. This is why this information and EXPLANATION that Carmen has provided is invaluable. Reasonable people will be able to see the difference and determine if it makes any sense.


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## Franksmom

This thread has me so interested in researching my dogs pedigree now, and this may sound crazy but is there somewhere I can read that is a basic start for a beginner, where I can get my feet wet so to speak and learn from and then move up. I can find the names in Frank's pedigree and some are starting to sound familiar with different threads on here but I dont' know exactly who they are from just reading the names, or exactly which names I should be most concerned about. He's my first GSD and I never thought about all this history in the lines when I bought him,
Dont' laugh but when I bought him the only Name I would of recognized in a pedigree would of been Rin Tin Tin, but I can be taught.


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## martemchik

I'm really intrigued because when I started on the forum about 8 or so months ago all I read was, "what kind of titles does you dog have" whenever a breeding question came up. There was a really long discussion about Sch and how it is or isn't a good breeding test. I seem to remember that the general consensus was that it is, but maybe because we just haven't found anything better.

I like how all of these breeders are admitting that its not the end all be all to breed to a titled dog, but at the same time it really is the only way to make an "easy" profit (or just a profit in general). Some of you have the time to go and watch a dog at work and then decide on that, but sadly many others either dont' have the time, or don't want to take the time to do this. So they go with the pack and breed to a titled dog, or to the sieger stud of the year in order to tell their customers their puppies are better than the breeder's down the road.

I see a vicious circle. The forum members tell perspective puppy owners what a good breeder looks like (titles and ofa), they go to breeders and scrutinize and search for titles, breeders in turn only look at titles because thats the easy way to sell a dog to these "knowledgeable" buyers. Should all people own a GSD? I don't think that is anyones call to make, if some of you breeders decide to not sell to a potential customer, they will get one somewhere else, that isn't as strong of nerve and the breed gets in the news for doing something awful.

I am a very rational thinker and I know it is impossible to get every single breeder in this country on board with how the more reputable breeders think, and sadly it is that kind of thinking that promotes byb and pet stores, they are just easier to deal with.

Since joining the forum I thought I figured out how to look for a "reputable breeder" but seeing pedigrees described here I see there is one thing that is usually left out:

Ask the breeder about the lines of their dogs, if you get a headache from the following conversation, they probably know what their doing.


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## lsatov

*Carmen great post.*

Carmen are you sure you are not a teacher? The written explanation and the visual examples really help newbies like myself put it together. Thanks for the example of roach/hinge back.
I have noticed that individuals with show lines post pics of their dogs to be commented on. Perhaps individuals should post videos of our working dogs in motion and invite comments on their motion.

Laurel


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## GSD07

carmspack said:


> If the dog doesn't move the decoy will fall on him and then the crowd will draw in their breath , oh look he took the decoy down.


  I spilled my coffee in this place LOL 

Wonderful post, Carmen, thank you!


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> Ask the breeder about the lines of their dogs, if you get a headache from the following conversation, they probably know what their doing.


 I like that.


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## cliffson1

While analyzing structure, a more recent dog with excellent movement was Fanto v Hirschel. Fanto was 2X Seiger(90 & 91 i think). I have had a 90 minute video of Fanto for the past 10 years,(bet that surprises some of my detractors), and in one portion there is video of Fanto and his trainer running down a bikepath with the trainer running full tilt. Fanto is offleash gaiting beside him with level back in full gait never breaking his cadence. It is breath taking. Take a look at Fanto structurally and you see a much more moderate dog than the ones today with the low dragging rear and roached back. Unfortunately, Fanto was not considered a good producer of masculine males, though he had excellent temperament. Very much moderate in all aspects, and that in itself may have not have helped him.


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## Samba

I have heard that Fanto could produce some good herding instincts. Had a Fanto grandaughter myself who had talents in herding. Lovely conformation also.


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## carmspack

Look what happens , I take a Saturday off and I work twice at hard !! 

Well this is only a beginning. 

I'll be your fearless reporter from the front .

Could history been different ? 

I believe so . 
Had Canto been in the hands or bred by someone not so influential , a virtual "von Stephanitz" of modern times one historical note may have made him less appealing. 

First , for interest and understanding I am going to provide visuals of modern day breed pillar contemporaries .
Bernd Lierberg d o b Mar 62 full brother to Bodo , VA3-- VA 3 Bernd vom Lierberg - German Shepherd Dog
Bodo Lierberg VA 1 (Sieger) d o b Mar 62 VA1 INT Bodo vom Lierberg - German Shepherd Dog

Bodo made "Sieger" his brother Bernd made VA 3 the same year, same competition.
Said Funk of Bernd - he had not seen a better moving dog but would have preferred that Bernd were 1 cm shorter . 

I placed Bernd above his higher evaluated brother because he has had a greater input and therefore influence in the breed . Bodo was brought to North America where he became a Guide Dog stud foundation. There were some local breeders that capitalized on his genetics. I was able connect to these lines. 

Mutz Pelztierfarm VA1 Marko vom Cellerland - German Shepherd Dog the senior member dob Oct 66 

Marko Cellerland VA 1 Sieger d o b May 68 VA1 Marko vom Cellerland - German Shepherd Dog

Canto Wienerau VA 1 d o b Sept 68
V1 Canto von der Wienerau - German Shepherd Dog


****** time out ------ had to share Upcoming Events: State Championship for German Shepherds Serbia (id: 133196) - German Shepherd Dog

that image of the dog moving is disturbingly wrong , wrong, wrong. The images keep on changing and every one knocks themselves out to PRODUCE it because that is what you need to win . Sometimes it seems so hopeless . It all began when Herman Martin convinced the German breeders that it was proper and that it was desireable . Then the concept of more is better comes in . A little arch spanning and strengthening the length between two points becomes what we have today -- and we are not finished . Just look at pups offered on the pedigree data base -- flat in pasterns , standing full on hock , pelvis lower than elbow and a very peaked back . You look . If I point them out it will be "bashing" .

more
to come
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

So I was flipping through some Brian Wooton chapters , find some discussion on Marko Cellerland . Very interesting and puzzling comment , maybe more relevant for "the day" . He said that one reason that Marko fell out of favour was because he produced colour paling and that he had the recessive gene for solid black .
He felt his son Eros VA3 Eros vom Hambachtal - German Shepherd Dog was fine enough for "Sieger" 
This had some interesting points, New Page 2 particularly the input of the SV saying that Marko did not compliment the Canto / Quanto lines . Don't see colour paling on Marko's sons -- now Canto and Palme , there is some real colour paling !
I do agree with the statement that the show lines are so distinct in genetics that outcrossing is not a solution. I don't see incorporating a jolt of working dogs .

What does have to happen is that you have dedicated people like Robin , who do work their show dogs, who are honest and critical and will only breed from truly healthy , confident dogs with talent . Just like any new developing breed , be ruthless in selecting only the best .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba

How narrow can the lines be and still pull out of the dive? If one is breeding the best to the best, can the "iceberg" problems be reduced to a large degree? I have often wondered how much diversity and improvement could be ontained within a narrowed genetic pool.


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## carmspack

well there won't be diversity. There is no diversity now . They are uniform to a point of monotiny . 

I had some additional material that I wanted to edit in to my message but the time it took was longer than the 10 minutes allowed to edit . So tomorrow.

Maybe I'll dig up some Oirschot lectures , and lectures about the concerns with the lack of diversity. 

This is a major question and worry in ALL breeds . Has the concept of PUREBRED runs it's course in the 100 plus years of it's creation .

Those are questions raised in Bred for Perfection.

See what happens in short life cycle inbreeding in drosophila --- (high school science )

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1




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## carmspack

what I had wanted to add , plus some , is this.

In my long post which provided Bernd, Bodo, Marko , Canto and Mutz Pelztierfarm for some reason I must have had Marko's information in the lineup of cuts and it was Marko's information that was supplied after the name Mutz (and again correctly for Marko) . 

Here is Mutz's information VA2 Mutz von der Pelztierfarm - German Shepherd Dog 
He is important . A good contributor to working lines and a good contributor to show lines . Mutz and Canto more so . Marko , Bernd and Bodo neglected.

That done - moving on -- Canto did create quite the commotion in his day . He was used by all interests in the GSD world including those lines which we now refer to as working . If I were to use a dog that Cliff mentioned Baro Kreutzchauer Land Baro v. Kreutzschauer Land - German Shepherd Dog there is Canto Amicos V Canto von Amicos - German Shepherd Dog - Mutz , Canto , Asslan . 

Check out Cesar z Jirkova Dvora V-1 Cesar z Jirkova Dvora - German Shepherd Dog leading you right to it NORA Z Jirkova dvora - German Shepherd Dog
see her dam Ajka z Jirkova Dvora linebred 5 4 Uran Wildsteiger land 5 5 Lasso di Val Sol , 4 5 Palme .
So the benefits were derived , inserted into bloodlines with priorities for work and temperament and hardness, and then continued with similar . This is sane .

Even Cordon An Sat in his background has show Klodo Erimitenklause the German youth Sieger , so used by "Czech" West German what would become working Niddereiche and Bungalow as sample, West German what would become show Wienerau , even "american" bred (Bee Jay's Dixie - who also has Bernd Lierberg)

Vachon Onyx Bohemia Vachon Onyx-Bohemia - German Shepherd Dog
(MARKO) familiar to many with Czech pedigrees 

Here is a dog that is in the background of one of my dogs V (USA) Quiz vom Olympus - German Shepherd Dog
Orlanda bringing in some nice input for smarts, herding , bidability V (USA) Orlanda vom Kirschental - German Shepherd Dog plus structure .

Laurel this is on your Journey . So how is Journey doing?

Did I mind or was I concerned ? No . The balance of the pedigree is working Czech, working Belgian - old German, Marko, Bernd , etc . Lots of value placed on herding genetics . 

Olympus , run by Inger Olavvson was always known for being very discerning and critical in demanding that the dogs worked - and were sound in health and sound in temperament. 
Over the years through a co-operative breeding friend it seems like a few "olympus" show bred dogs have found their way into the fabric of my genetics . 

You pick on many working line dogs and there are several animals in the third generation with no common ancestors, no linebreeding. 

You pick on any show line dog and it seems every member on the third generation is stuffed with linebred dogs , intense linebreedings and all on the same animals. True whether you look at the Sieger or true if you look at a hobby bred.

here to follow the anonymity 3rd generation views only as other examined dogs is a male , real and actual living , representing the "reputable hobby bred" 

Indo Geesthugel V Indo vom Geesthügel - German Shepherd Dog linebred 55 3 Uran Wildsteiger Land 5 4 Palme 
Diamond Bar Nista SG Diamond Bar Nista - German Shepherd Dog linebreeding 5 54 Dingo haus Gero who is himself linebred Canto , 555 5 Lasso di Val Sole , Palme linebred Canto 
Dux della Valcuvia VA6 Dux della Valcuvia - German Shepherd Dog
linebreeding (only picking out the major ones to save time now ) Hasel Tannenmiese 5 5 but he himself (go see the full extent yourself) is 3 44 Canto , Odin Tannenmiese 4 45 , but he himself is 54 55 Canto ,

Vita Vera Haus VA6 Dux della Valcuvia - German Shepherd Dog 5 4 Uran 5 54 Quando 

Viador von Kisman VIADOR von KISMAN - German Shepherd Dog 55 on Quando Arminius - linebred on Quanto , 45 55 Odin Tannemiese who as many times mentioned is linebred Canto 54 55 - and others 

Apfel v Acker APFEL von ACKER - German Shepherd Dog wow linebreeding again on Hasel Tannenmiese 5 4 (Canto 3 44) Uran 554 

Zeus Konigtum V (US) ZEUS von KÖNIGTUM - German Shepherd Dog linebred Uran 5 5 , Xaver Arminius 5 5 

Xentie v h Kaiser Xentie vom Haus Kaiser - German Shepherd Dog linebred on Quina Arminius 555 5 and Quina is 3 5 Quando , linebred Mark haus Beck 44 45 but Mark is linebred Quanto 55 4 and Canto 55 5 , Fedor Arminius 55 55 and he is linebred on Quanto 4 45 Canto 44 5 .

the end . I don't know what was getting to me , the heat , or the dizzyiness that accompanies running around in circles -- no matter if the dog from modern show lines since the early 70's is bred by top spitzen members , or poor or mediocre , the ingredients are ALL the SAME . 

Like so many trays of stew at some banquet , all having been created in one big vat and then put into more manageable , serving-attractive bowls . Every once in a while an attendant comes along and gives the pot a stir . The surface looks different. One pot may have more peas , or more carrots or more potatoes , another more chunks of meat come to the surface . But they all have the same ingredients - taste the same .

So someone tell ME how do you make a difference . Obviously you can not look at the glistening white peak of the ice berg when there is a ice continent below .

Not a teacher --- a life long student
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Lies don't figure and figures don't lie. Thanks Carmen for going in depth into explaining with incontrovertible facts what I was trying to say. I have always advocated that Canto and Lance were not bad dogs, but the intense line/in breeding done on them for so long did not serve them or the breed well. I feel the same thing is happening with the Fero lines in WL dogs, just not to the same degree and over the same amount of time. People allow their sensibilities to get offended because they like these dogs or enjoy participating in the show world or the sport world. This is a choice thing and I DON'T condemn ANYONE for their desire to pursue their interests. But it still won't change the facts of their breeding, and the consequences that come with this lack of gentic diversity. 
I was going to start a thread on the differences betwween temperament and drive, and identifying each, what to look for , and how to maintain them from genotype and phenotype.(There are some very knowledgable people on this forum about these two things). But its very difficult to avoid sensibilities, feelings, and likes, even in the name of learning. So I will wait for someone else to venture that way in the future.
Peace out!


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## Lakl

I've been closely following this thread, though my head is spinning. For someone like myself, who is brand spanking new to the breed and trying to learn what I can, can these questions be answered in a "GSD's for Dummies" type way?

1. If I did not have access to people like you who have been studying the lines and breed for years and could ask for feedback or opinions, what would be the key things i should be looking for when examining a dog's pedigree for consideration?

A. I understand that an abundance of line breeding from the same dog(s) can bring forth more negatives than positives?

B. What aspects of the pedigree make the dog worth consideration? The Sch, HGH, or ? Or should one be looking for a nicely diverse mix of these titles?

C. How do you know what type of temperaments and drive these dogs in there pedigree held? Whether they had nerves of steele, were hard workers, or had a strong bite? Where does it say that or where can you find out? Especially if titles can be trained into a dog, but the actual natural genetic ability is missing?

2. It seems like the overall message is that the showline has been damaged to the point of no return? So much so that incorporating working lines in current and future generations poses a risk to the overall progress of the working lines? But if the form and function of the original lines from the 50s and 60s were bred out, can they not be bred back in?? Or are there too few showlines with the work and temperament left to improve this line and that the object or purpose behind breeding these dog's has been lost?

I apologize if these questions sound dumb as much of this is information is a giant mountain that I am trying to weed my way through, reading and re-reading.


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## Lakl

Sorry, couple more questions...

How many generation SHOULD one go back to assess their dog's pedigree? And if there's a diverse group of dog's in the pedigree, how do you determine which dog's contributed the most positives and negatives. What are the red flags?


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## carmspack

Lakl said:


> I've been closely following this thread, though my head is spinning. For someone like myself, who is brand spanking new to the breed and trying to learn what I can, can these questions be answered in a "GSD's for Dummies" type way?
> 
> XXXXXXXXXX here is how I would answer your very good questions , you being a person who just wants a trouble free , sound and healthy companion to share your time and space with -- simple --- but the answer would be the same if you were a person requiring a dog for a specific job --- SAR , competition, service .
> 
> In a question and answer format
> 
> 1. If I did not have access to people like you who have been studying the lines and breed for years and could ask for feedback or opinions, what would be the key things i should be looking for when examining a dog's pedigree for consideration?
> 
> XXXXXXXXXX the answer is that it is not your worry to understand a pedigree . The key thing is to find a breeder who has a history of PRODUCING what it is that you want. Ask the questions . Get references if necessary , which should be willingly offered . Can that person discuss with intelligence the features of their dogs' character , do they have the ability to evaluate the litter and do they have the care and interest to understand your needs, listen to you , and try to make the match. Too many potential buyers approach and special request colour , or a dateline , or an origin "Czech" or "DDR" although they have never owned a dog before and such a specific would have little meaning to them other than conversation over the water cooler at work . Ask at the outset before you purchase, how would you handle this hypothetical situation , what would be my guarantees or warranties, what is my part , what is your part in this .
> Do you like the overall type . Do you like the pups.
> When dogs are evaluated for work it doesn't matter who or what the parents are --- the decision comes down to the results of the evaluation of the particular dog . It doesn't matter if the parents poop gold -- they aren't being offered for sale , only the dog/pup that is made available matters .
> It is nice to see that the breeder has experience and longevity in the game. There are a lot of start ups , in it for 5 years and then out. It is nice to see that the breeder holds back the offspring from their breeding programme and builds on that , guides and fine tunes and tries to bring goals to life . This is the case no matter which camp , show lines , or working lines.
> 
> 
> A. I understand that an abundance of line breeding from the same dog(s) can bring forth more negatives than positives?
> 
> XXXXXXXX yes and no . Depends on the background , the genetics, of those animals being line bred on . Depends on the degree or saturation of those animals. Depends on the balance and strength of the remainder of the pedigree. It can help solve a weakness and shorten the time doing so in one or two generations, or it can create a weakness just as quickly. It can consolidate features so thoroughly that it is difficult to change , and often it is done to consolidate features so things do not change.
> 
> 
> B. What aspects of the pedigree make the dog worth consideration? The Sch, HGH, or ? Or should one be looking for a nicely diverse mix of these titles?
> 
> XXXXXXX The paper itself has no value. Only the results. Titles demonstrate that the dog has been trained and can fulfill the requirements. The title alone has no guarantee. There are dogs with SchH titles that really have no courage , the drives are not natural but taught and learned , or the dog is not something that you would want to live with. HGH --- too many trialing dogs -- same thing as the SchH the trial has been modified --- this is a very deep and complicated discussion -- there is a difference between a trial dog and a real working dog .
> I was offered a pedigree to look . The dog was a HGH , but is not a true daily grind herding dog ,but a dog with a title . One half of the pedigree I could validate the genetics for herding ancestry, the other half , although titled , actually had no business being attached to the top half of the pedigree . Take away all the titles and just look at the animals . Bad loading , actually , although not linebreeding at all , brought together lines which I would stay away from in that combination. The potential next generation , when you look at the pedigree strengthened the potential temperamental negatives . The person looked at titles and put titles together without understanding the animals behind the titles , without understanding the lines and the families .
> I will not comment on the particular dog or the lines --that is held in confidence .
> 
> C. How do you know what type of temperaments and drive these dogs in there pedigree held? Whether they had nerves of steele, were hard workers, or had a strong bite? Where does it say that or where can you find out? Especially if titles can be trained into a dog, but the actual natural genetic ability is missing?
> 
> XXXXXXX Get familiar with the breeder . Do they produce what you are looking for . What is the emphasis of the program. Stay away from extremes . Look for balance.
> 
> 
> 2. It seems like the overall message is that the showline has been damaged to the point of no return?
> 
> XXXXXXX I don't know . That is the million dollar question that needs to be answered. If I were looking to get a show line dog I would find a breeder who is truly and honestly asking those questions and trying to resolve issues. Recognizing that there is a problem is the first step. Being ruthless in not breeding poor health, poor temperament is vital . Sometimes this necessitates that this person is strong enough to work outside the "club" or "clique" . Can't be a total rogue either -- . There is a self imposed standard of excellence -- setting the bar high . Judge by the offspring , the results .
> All breeds and all parts of any breed need to be vigilant to keep things on course , and not get sunk by something you didn't see (although the maps showed the hazard).
> 
> So much so that incorporating working lines in current and future generations poses a risk to the overall progress of the working lines?
> 
> XXXXXX how working lines are incorporated into show lines will not affect working lines . I don't see it happening . Not as a programme set out by the SV . In attempts for "golden middle" they are recommending the opposite , that working line breeders blend in the show lines . That won't happen either . There is no equality even in the expectations for the Sch H title. The trailing or testing at the Sieger show and the pressure and trialing or testing at the Bundessieger Prufung SchH tests have no similarity. The value of the SchH title is not the same. It's like taking a drivers test for the umpteenth time on a closed circuit course , or going out in bad weather onto the highway and then into the congested downtown with pedestrians and bicyclists and one ways and construction and delivery trucks . Does this make sense.
> 
> 
> But if the form and function of the original lines from the 50s and 60s were bred out, can they not be bred back in??
> 
> XXXXXXXXXX look at the pedigree data base , follow the Sieger show from year to year . Things aren't getting better , they are getting worse. Selection fixes , meaning makes a selected feature a certainty . Pick a well known dog . Go to his progeny list. Select a progeny , then go to their progeny list , keep randomly selecting. Do things return to a balance or do they advance to an extreme. More is not better.
> I remember when people used to phone not wanting one of those slope backed "american dogs" , truth is , you have to point out , the the WGSL is much more slopped , many "american" dogs being better --- although they too have too elongated rears and tend to be over long in body.
> 
> 
> 
> Or are there too few showlines with the work and temperament left to improve this line and that the object or purpose behind breeding these dog's has been lost?
> 
> XXXXXXXXXX Find the breeder that cares about the work aspect . I know a few . These are not fanatical show line purists .
> I leave that for someone else to answer .
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize if these questions sound dumb as much of this is information is a giant mountain that I am trying to weed my way through, reading and re-reading.


XXXXXX Experience is a good teacher .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lakl

Thank you, Carmen. This was excellent! I am going to print this thread and save it!

In addition, can you elaborate how the Schutzund test has changed over the years? How it was conducted previously in which only a select few dogs had the proven ability obtain this title and how it is administered now, so that it seems like every Spot, Rover, or Sam is able to obtain one?

I watched a video posted last week of a Sch trial where 3 of the dogs actually ran from the guy with the stick, and their owners had to retrieve them from behind the judge where they were hiding. I was astounded that these dogs were even brought out to compete in front of all those people. They were, of course, disqualified, but I wonder if these dogs weren't later brought back after more training and eventually given a Sch title? Even as a newbie, it seemed to me that these dogs simply did not possess the nerve or temperaments to be Sch material, yet if they were at sometime given these titles, then it is truly misleading to those considering their offspring for that very temperament of courage and strong nerves.


----------



## cliffson1

Lakl,
I think you have misinterpreted some of the post in regards to breeding aspects. There are some terrific showline dogs....the point that is being made is that genetically they are not as balanced or diverse in genetics. This doesn't necessarily lead to MORE negative than postive....it strengthens the positve and the negative. The problem is it leads to extremes in both areas....so the positve you are breeding for gets more enhanced, likewise the negatives. I have never advocated doing away with showline dogs....what I have advocated is bringing in genetic diversity for a long enough period of time to bring balance back to the line. This will strenghten the overall dog, but it will not enhance the dog in the showring....so people who either value liking a certain type over the balance concept, or who want to succeed in the ring and know that repeated generations of bringing in new blood to compensate entrenched weaknesses, do not find this option as viable. Its like smoking cigarettes, many very health conscious people understand the nuances of smoking being detrimental, but they like to smoke or are addicted to smoking, and reason is not going to prevail with them. Sure there are positives to smoking, in that it often calms people, allows people to work or focus well, etc. but that is tip of the iceberg, underneath the damage being done will come to roost later down the road. Its factual, has been proven, and so be it. 
BUT, everyone has right to pursue their ideals of Good!. Get that!!! But shouldn't we still warn people about the long term effects of smoking/or linebreeding....or is that bashing??????? I don't know....but sure has gotten me left off of many people's holiday card list....Not really!!!lol


----------



## Lakl

cliffson1 said:


> Lakl,
> I think you have misinterpreted some of the post in regards to breeding aspects. There are some terrific showline dogs....the point that is being made is that genetically they are not as balanced or diverse in genetics. This doesn't necessarily lead to MORE negative than postive....it strengthens the positve and the negative. The problem is it leads to extremes in both areas....so the positve you are breeding for gets more enhanced, likewise the negatives. I have never advocated doing away with showline dogs....what I have advocated is bringing in genetic diversity for a long enough period of time to bring balance back to the line. This will strenghten the overall dog, but it will not enhance the dog in the showring....so people who either value liking a certain type over the balance concept, or who want to succeed in the ring and know that repeated generations of bringing in new blood to compensate entrenched weaknesses, do not find this option as viable. Its like smoking cigarettes, many very health conscious people understand the nuances of smoking being detrimental, but they like to smoke or are addicted to smoking, and reason is not going to prevail with them. Sure there are positives to smoking, in that it often calms people, allows people to work or focus well, etc. but that is tip of the iceberg, underneath the damage being done will come to roost later down the road. Its factual, has been proven, and so be it.
> 
> BUT, everyone has right to pursue their ideals of Good!. Get that!!! But shouldn't we still warn people about the long term effects of smoking/or linebreeding....or is that bashing??????? I don't know....but sure has gotten me left off of many people's holiday card list....Not really!!!lol


This is what I like to think, Cliff, that despite the masses, there are people like Robin and Huerta Hof that are striving to bring their showline dogs to BOTH the conformation and working standards.

What or who would be some current showline dogs that you think have been bred to meet these standards?


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## bocron

Thanks for posting the link to Canto, I searched every which way on PDB and it wouldn't find the pedigree. I guess you have to know to put the V1 in front of the name.

Annette


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## cliffson1

Please let me put this to rest....Robin and Huerta Hof are excellent breeders. I have repeatedly said that if I were to inject some WGSL blood into what I breed to maybe pick up some shoulder or movement, the first two people I would consider would be Robin of Huerta Hof and Tracey of Bullinger kennels. I have said this on more than one occaison. I still maintain that, I just would use this line of dog, from a kennel who I know won't compromise the outward expression of temperament, to infuse what I want and then stay in the middle genetically from that point onward. My considering Bullinger or Huerta hof is indicative of my respect for what they are doing. 
The more I express myself the more people get it twisted for whatever reason and the messenger becomes the target instead of the information. Its fine, I have big boy pants, maybe its better for people to not discuss these issues so people can stay in ignorance and continue to fill up the threads on aggression, shyness, epi, DM, bloat, and a host of other things. It really won't compromise what I am doing.


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## Samba

Of course, each has their priority and their level of knowledge. There are going to be those who are better at navigating the waters than others. We can only talk in generalities. If the generalities are in dispute, then that should be brought up in the discussion.

Looking at line development and ramifications of decisions for the breed seems important. Would that we could discuss another breed or deal in hypotheticals, but it would not be as pertinent to German Shepherd enthusiasts.

When points of departure are taken, and surely we can agree there are those in the breed, much can be learned by looking at results. Some may love the results and some may not like the results so much, but the results are the results! No breed or line is immune as people make the decisions in purebred dog production, not Nature.

If I were to begin breed, I think the advice of finding someone with an established record and learning about what is behind the dog is a good route. There are books to be read, but nothing compares to breeders real life experience with some generations. 

Lots of people put dogs together. Some import a nice dog and start breeding it with little background knowledge of the dog's ancestry. Many say it is a good dog, it has a stellar pedigree....so exciting to have that for breeding! Every dog is the tip of the genetic load though. 

I may be wrong, but I think of breeding as balancing and preserving. There may be traits that need to improved for balance; good traits that need to be preserved also. Putting a dog with a bitch is mating two individuals, but they carry the genetics that one can not see. No breeding will be perfect, but with knowledge, one can know what to look for and what to look out for in the next generation. If one is lucky enough to achieve a goal of improvement and preservation, hooray! 

I have always been most fascinated with "what does my dog's breeder know"? And what have they accomplished.


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## carmspack

Cliff I would give Lakl more credit than that .
The purpose of going to the third generation and finding the intense linebreeding behind them was to demonstrate how narrow the genetics were , that the same names appeared in every sire/dam down the entire column , that those dogs themselves were intensely linebred , and that the dogs on which they were linebred were fraught with problems. 
Evolution 101 --
We start off with an original population . That population is somewhat diverse in genetics and appearance . Function tends to be specialized to that community. Bird and field dogs are specialized function, turn-spit dogs , vermin dogs, bull baiting dogs are all specifically selected for excellence in the function needed as are herding dogs. Further specialization occurs when selecting for dogs working in a specific environment -- loose or tight graze . Collies in the British Isles have a different function from sheep herding dogs in continental Europe. Urbanization changes things makes a particular behaviour more necessary , responding to changing work environments, talking about the unique "living fence" style of the GSD .
So you already start to see the effects of selective breeding. Don't ever think that just because there were no governing bodies FCI , SV , controlling and recording , that there was not a high level of sophistication in breeding. There were types . Even regional types , bone , stature, coat , ear carriage, character .
As time goes on there is a world wide movement post mid Victorian age of discovery and experimentation in the understanding of why and how life takes the form it does , from Mendel to Lamarck , to Darwin , right down to revolutionary upheavals in that understanding with todays research proposing we can control the DNA with which we are blessed -- the ability to switch on or off a gene. 
Agriculture gives way to urbanization , and dogs seek new employment - changing the selection process , and dogs are kept as tokens of prosperity and status -- the selection for priority of external beauty begins . Then a particularly beautiful dog gains a certain cache , his genetics are ensured a place for prosperity. 
Jumping on the band wagon are the very shepherds who worked so hard to maintain a strain of herding dogs -- they bred and sold, for extra cash, the highly desirable , highly marketable wolf like looking version , chosen more for external reasons than working qualities. Even in the von Stephanitz book he says that the group most likely to gain the upper hand , meaning work or show will do so at a cost .-He had an activist opponent who wanted two distinct versions of the "breed" (which we have today!!), one for the urbanite , sophisticated appreciator of beauty and harmony, and one for the rural needs of working priority ---- but von Stephanitz with his very direct way , knowing the conflict --insisted on a melding of the two types so a "working type show dog " once again , as he acknowledged "at a cost".
This has always been the case , the drift away , the sacrifice in temperament , Von Stephanitz cleaning house and redirecting , the terrible temperaments immediately post war , the recovery , the Martin influence right to today .
Where are we ? 
Are we at the brink of another upheaval .
Should there be two distinct populations as per Strebel . A luxury group with a different definition on the core character . Let not one person be fooled . The standards of evaluation via BS schutzhund trials is not the same as the pressure of the BSP . Why not change the standard for the character of the show dog . Instead of having a paler version , devaluing the title Sch H , why not create a test which affirms soundness , stability , value in being a reliable safe companion .
Evaluating for coping ability and adaptability in environments and situations . 

The modern show dog is a virtual break away colony of an original population complete with reduced variation -- more uniformity , less statistical chance of change ---.
It is not a case of stronger positives or more negative -- that is determined by the population which has been isolated and concentrated - and in our case with Canto Wienerau there sure were problems . 

Diversity needs a whole new look-see. Just like diversity or lack thereof back in the von Stephanitz day when too much reliance on inbred founding stock was showing its effects , outside blood from unregistered regional herding stock females was brought in. 

Working line genetics , especially the way some of them have been going on , basically using the same one or two ancestral founding dogs (thuringian) are not going to change much , and might exacerbate a problem bringing in more sharpness without a supporting base for solid , unflappable temperament. Too much excitability. Loss of the desirable uniform external appearance. 
If somehow a show line breeder could bring back the structure of Canto , Quanto, Fanto, Mutz , with a firm handle and improvement of temperament , and health, then we could have something really really great. Any freakish parody , physically extreme dog , eliminated from breeding consideration. Start showing that this is the only type you can produce , then also eliminated . Can't be done by the ones or twos . Can't be done by the Robins and Ingers (and there are others but I don't know them all) alone. That would be like shoveling out the Stygian stables with a teaspoon. Work all day all hours and not see a change , and become over whelmed with the poop -- because it just keeps on coming , coming , coming. It took Hercules to clean the stables -- that was one of the tasks he had to perform . It takes the will and desire of the entire group.
Back yard breeders and casual breeders are no help . 
Instead of saying Understand the breed before you buy it , how about Understand the Breed before you breed it !!!! That was the banner on a web site provided on the forum by a person asking about a certain breeder .

well I am sue there will be more later.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

Cliff . Phone me the day that you do this breeding.

There is a reason that you keep going to your beloved "czech dogs" . 

Also phone me the day when a hard core show interested person uses "your" working male (or lines).

These are two distinct , genetically removed populations . You have a bottle neck and founder effect . That in itself means that change will take longer to effect .

'yeah Samba' this is why these topics are under Cliffs well named "iceberg" title -- it is the not understood , not seen .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal

> Can't be done by the ones or twos . Can't be done by the Robins and Ingers (and there are others but I don't know them all) alone. That would be like shoveling out the Stygian stables with a teaspoon. Work all day all hours and not see a change , and become over whelmed with the poop -- because it just keeps on coming , coming , coming. It took Hercules to clean the stables -- that was one of the tasks he had to perform . It takes the will and desire of the entire group.


..........and there is the problem. The SV has done an amazing job of shifting the mentality of the breeders. It did start with the Martins but really accelerated within the last decade and I am including the Working lines in that comment. Seems after the Police Trials were separated from the Bundessieger and Agility took their place, things got really bad. The SV has also, very conveniently , used the Green Party to blame for the dumbing down of the SchH test. This fake fear of the AR movement has been offered up as the reason for softening the test. This flies in the face of common sense, since the tougher tests help preserve a better, more healthy GSD. Since just about everyone in the world wants to claim they follow the "SV standard for breeding", ( something I sure wouldn't be bragging about nowadays), they seem to have a firm grip on where things are headed and where they will continue to head. Nope, there will be no Wonder Women fixing that mess. You need a village as they say and the village , at this point in time, is mostly filled with idiots. It's a mentality that is VERY firmly set.


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## Samba

SV.... epic fail.


----------



## Lakl

cliffson1 said:


> Please let me put this to rest....Robin and Huerta Hof are excellent breeders. I have repeatedly said that if I were to inject some WGSL blood into what I breed to maybe pick up some shoulder or movement, the first two people I would consider would be Robin of Huerta Hof and Tracey of Bullinger kennels. I have said this on more than one occaison. I still maintain that, I just would use this line of dog, from a kennel who I know won't compromise the outward expression of temperament, to infuse what I want and then stay in the middle genetically from that point onward. My considering Bullinger or Huerta hof is indicative of my respect for what they are doing.
> The more I express myself the more people get it twisted for whatever reason and the messenger becomes the target instead of the information. Its fine, I have big boy pants, maybe its better for people to not discuss these issues so people can stay in ignorance and continue to fill up the threads on aggression, shyness, epi, DM, bloat, and a host of other things. It really won't compromise what I am doing.


I apologize if the way you interpreted my post was a dig towards you. I was running late for work this morning and rushed to throw in a quick post. My reference to Huerta Hof was not AT ALL in regards to any of of your statements. Carmen mentioned in one of her posts that very few showline breeders were striving towards the true GSD standard and were swayed more towards the mass idea of looks. She also mentioned that Huerta Hof was one of the few showline kennels breeding towards real working dog's and conformation.

So my reference in regards to Robin was aimed more towards my original questions to Carmen about whether or not these lines could be bred back to what the standard calls for. The Bullinger and Huerta Hof Kennels are such a very small portion of the showline world that seem to be breeding for the total package. So in that respect, without having to cross the lines, and without more showline breeders recognizing the negative impacts, is it possible to turn this line around? My question to you, Cliff, asking what showline dog's you liked, was a genuine question, not a snipe. Only because many here can point out what a good working dog looks like that is alive and well today, but the only Showlines I ever see pointed out are from 30-40 years ago. I am just trying to learn, because if there are SL being produced that are striving to meet the temperament, working, and conformation standards of the breed, I want to see them. I want to look at their pedigrees and see if I can pinpoint any differences in their lines and the lines of other showline dogs. Comparing the pedigrees between a working dog and a showline does not seem applicable as it seems like comparing apples to oranges, because of the different directions these lines have taken.

We all know there's a divide between the working and showline world's, but if I come across a post where someone outside the showline world says, "Now that's a good showline dog," then I want to see what they're talking about and why. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling. :crazy:


----------



## Lakl

Just got caught up and read this. Very nice. Answered the rambling for the question I was trying to ask!



carmspack said:


> Cliff I would give Lakl more credit than that .
> The purpose of going to the third generation and finding the intense linebreeding behind them was to demonstrate how narrow the genetics were , that the same names appeared in every sire/dam down the entire column , that those dogs themselves were intensely linebred , and that the dogs on which they were linebred were fraught with problems.
> Evolution 101 --
> We start off with an original population . That population is somewhat diverse in genetics and appearance . Function tends to be specialized to that community. Bird and field dogs are specialized function, turn-spit dogs , vermin dogs, bull baiting dogs are all specifically selected for excellence in the function needed as are herding dogs. Further specialization occurs when selecting for dogs working in a specific environment -- loose or tight graze . Collies in the British Isles have a different function from sheep herding dogs in continental Europe. Urbanization changes things makes a particular behaviour more necessary , responding to changing work environments, talking about the unique "living fence" style of the GSD .
> So you already start to see the effects of selective breeding. Don't ever think that just because there were no governing bodies FCI , SV , controlling and recording , that there was not a high level of sophistication in breeding. There were types . Even regional types , bone , stature, coat , ear carriage, character .
> As time goes on there is a world wide movement post mid Victorian age of discovery and experimentation in the understanding of why and how life takes the form it does , from Mendel to Lamarck , to Darwin , right down to revolutionary upheavals in that understanding with todays research proposing we can control the DNA with which we are blessed -- the ability to switch on or off a gene.
> Agriculture gives way to urbanization , and dogs seek new employment - changing the selection process , and dogs are kept as tokens of prosperity and status -- the selection for priority of external beauty begins . Then a particularly beautiful dog gains a certain cache , his genetics are ensured a place for prosperity.
> Jumping on the band wagon are the very shepherds who worked so hard to maintain a strain of herding dogs -- they bred and sold, for extra cash, the highly desirable , highly marketable wolf like looking version , chosen more for external reasons than working qualities. Even in the von Stephanitz book he says that the group most likely to gain the upper hand , meaning work or show will do so at a cost .-He had an activist opponent who wanted two distinct versions of the "breed" (which we have today!!), one for the urbanite , sophisticated appreciator of beauty and harmony, and one for the rural needs of working priority ---- but von Stephanitz with his very direct way , knowing the conflict --insisted on a melding of the two types so a "working type show dog " once again , as he acknowledged "at a cost".
> This has always been the case , the drift away , the sacrifice in temperament , Von Stephanitz cleaning house and redirecting , the terrible temperaments immediately post war , the recovery , the Martin influence right to today .
> Where are we ?
> Are we at the brink of another upheaval .
> Should there be two distinct populations as per Strebel . A luxury group with a different definition on the core character . Let not one person be fooled . The standards of evaluation via BS schutzhund trials is not the same as the pressure of the BSP . Why not change the standard for the character of the show dog . Instead of having a paler version , devaluing the title Sch H , why not create a test which affirms soundness , stability , value in being a reliable safe companion .
> Evaluating for coping ability and adaptability in environments and situations .
> 
> The modern show dog is a virtual break away colony of an original population complete with reduced variation -- more uniformity , less statistical chance of change ---.
> It is not a case of stronger positives or more negative -- that is determined by the population which has been isolated and concentrated - and in our case with Canto Wienerau there sure were problems .
> 
> Diversity needs a whole new look-see. Just like diversity or lack thereof back in the von Stephanitz day when too much reliance on inbred founding stock was showing its effects , outside blood from unregistered regional herding stock females was brought in.
> 
> Working line genetics , especially the way some of them have been going on , basically using the same one or two ancestral founding dogs (thuringian) are not going to change much , and might exacerbate a problem bringing in more sharpness without a supporting base for solid , unflappable temperament. Too much excitability. Loss of the desirable uniform external appearance.
> If somehow a show line breeder could bring back the structure of Canto , Quanto, Fanto, Mutz , with a firm handle and improvement of temperament , and health, then we could have something really really great. Any freakish parody , physically extreme dog , eliminated from breeding consideration. Start showing that this is the only type you can produce , then also eliminated . Can't be done by the ones or twos . Can't be done by the Robins and Ingers (and there are others but I don't know them all) alone. That would be like shoveling out the Stygian stables with a teaspoon. Work all day all hours and not see a change , and become over whelmed with the poop -- because it just keeps on coming , coming , coming. It took Hercules to clean the stables -- that was one of the tasks he had to perform . It takes the will and desire of the entire group.
> Back yard breeders and casual breeders are no help .
> Instead of saying Understand the breed before you buy it , how about Understand the Breed before you breed it !!!! That was the banner on a web site provided on the forum by a person asking about a certain breeder .
> 
> well I am sue there will be more later.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## cliffson1

Sorry, Lakl, if I gave the impression that the post was intended for you, it was not...it seems a few people thought I was picking on Robin's breeding program. I was not referring to any specific program as I said before, I was just explaining some concepts of breeding along with others and used Canto as an example. 
As for your question about specific showline dog....I breed by genetics primarily....I breed for balance and compensation, that's why I often bring in dogs that I have never seen and yet it works out for me. As such, in reference to your question I have seen some nice individual showlines that are impressive....one a couple years ago was Beluga's Zulu....awesome working dog, showlines with a lot of Mutz vd Pelztierferm in the pedigree. But for breeding, the saturated blood would bring too much imbalance for what I strive to do. Hope this makes sense and time for a siesta for me.


----------



## carmspack

so right Samba and Vandal -- more than epic failure .

Those that know me from another list know that I have often said the future well being and success of the breed will come not from SV but from countries outside , Sweden , Czech, Belgian , possibly North America even .

Helmut Raiser , participant in BSP and winner of BSP Sieger (4 times?) , trainer and communicator revolutionizing building and training in drives , was legitimately voted in to represent the SV as President . 
Apparently his outspoken , change making ways had him stripped of his title , hardly democratic . I believe there were law suits pending .

So Raiser formed a new parallel breed club. Members of that "other" list joined .

That is where I lost the story . I don't know the details or how it ended up.

I think Raiser was banned from participating in an SV BSP or LG event even though he still is a registered member.

If someone with better information can fill in the blanks please some good insight into the SV can be given.


more in the morning 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lakl

*Proof of the Point in this Thread...*

I am returning to this thread because of recent developments with my pup and understanding how important this discussion really is, I feel the need to share with others my experience...

Earlier in this thread, Carmen discusses a dog's line breeding and the many crosses of the same dog(s) on both the sire and dam's side. That dog is my dog, and we have discussed this extensively in PM, but I feel the need to let others know the impact of what is being addressed here...

I thought I was doing all the right things. Looking at what was deemed responsible breeders and getting recommendations. Both parents titled extensively, and tested normal in hips and elbows. Carmen herself recommended a pup for me, not from her kennel, but from one she trusted. I passed on the recommended pup from someone with 35 years of knowledge on the breed because I fell in love with a picture, thought the breeder reputable, and that all the titles meant something.

I noticed little things on the first night my pup came home, but told myself that this was probably normal and part of the whole puppy thing. By 15 weeks, I was no longer convinced it was just me and contacted my breeder and a few knowledgable people on the board for opinions. My pup had extremely weak pasterns and shaky gangly hocks. My breeder immediately went on the defensive. Her dogs did not produce this and it must have been because of what I fed, how much I fed, blah, blah, blah. By 22 weeks, my pup struggled to lift his rear off the ground from a down position, and his rear looked like that of a crippled dog. The vet said he would absolutely develop HD and his hips were so loose, he demonstrated to me how he could easily pop them in and out of the sockets.

Now at 6 months, my pup has dislodged the joint connected to his hip and is hobbling around juiced up on rimadyl to ease the pain. The vet said he could pop the bone back in place, but could also guarantee it would dislodge again. The X-rays show that his hip sockets are so shallow that they only cover 1/4 of the connecting bone, when they are supposed to cover 2/3. At only 6 months of age, my two options are a complete hip replacement which runs around $10k or a procedure that completely saws off the top of the leg bones that connect to the hips which is between $2k - $2500. This procedure alleviates the pain all together but relies on the muscle to support the rear instead. But because my pup was never correct in his rear to begin with, he developed almost no muscle, so this procedure will have to be followed up with physical therapy.

The worst part in all this? Absolutely NO breeder support. My breeder is more concerned with protecting their reputation, and has sought every possible avenue to blame me for this instead of admitting that these can happen with dog's that are heavily linebred. I have been asked not to contact them anymore unless I am sending the pup back. No refund or replacement (another story), just send the pup back to someone who has shown not one ounce of concern for it's welfare. What was most disturbing is that when I contacted my breeder about the issues, it was not to seek compensation or retribution, only advice on what I could do to make the pup better. Instead I was insulted and berated.

Meanwhile, my poor pup, who I once had hopes of doing agility with, struggles just to walk. People like Carmen and Robin have done all they can to share their knowledge with me and try to help me help my pup, but despite all I've done and will do to try and make this better, the truth is that, by my own vet's words, "This is just how he was made".


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## Germanshepherdlova

LAK1, I am so sorry for what you and your dog are going through. Very sad. I am also surprised that this "quality" breeder that you selected isn't more concerned about breeding a puppy with HD at such a young age.That is very, very alarming.


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## Lakl

In many ways, I feel like my pup is the center of the iceberg. Completely unraveled and exposed from the beginning, but it is all the titled dogs in his pedigree that mistakenly disguise and wrap the center of the issues with these breedings. My breeder claims he is the first to have hip issues from their stock. I find this hard to believe. When something like this happens, the suggestions are that it is a crap shoot with these lines and every now and then something like this happens. I'm starting to believe it is the other away 
around. The crap shoot is hoping can get a temperamentally sound and conformationally healthy dog that meets the real gsd standard from this type of breeding...


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## GSDElsa

Wow Lakl what a horrible story. I hope the best for yourpup but it doesn't sound promising. How heartbreaking.


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## vomlittlehaus

Lakl, I know this will cost and dont know how you feel about it, but have you considered having OFA rate the hips and post on the site? There will then be a public record of what this breeding has produced and others can make an informed decision based on that.


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## GSDElsa

Great idea Dawn! I really think this is the type of thing that needs to be documented


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## Germanshepherdlova

dawnandjr said:


> Lakl, I know this will cost and dont know how you feel about it, but have you considered having OFA rate the hips and post on the site? There will then be a public record of what this breeding has produced and others can make an informed decision based on that.


:thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA

I am so very sorry for what you and your puppy are going thru. but THANK YOU so much for sharing your story, I hope it will help others in some way.

I hope you can find some peace for both of you


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## Lakl

dawnandjr said:


> Lakl, I know this will cost and dont know how you feel about it, but have you considered having OFA rate the hips and post on the site? There will then be a public record of what this breeding has produced and others can make an informed decision based on that.


Thanks, that is something I will strongly consider once we have made it up this hill. Right now I am focused on figuring out how to pay for his surgery.

I just think that what is being discussed in this thread is so important for those trying to decide on a new pup, and this is a learning experience I will never forget.


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## Cassidy's Mom

The OFA fee is only $35, and he is old enough to be prelimed, which will be posted on the OFA site, just like the official rating at 2+ years old.


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## Samba

I was reading about Catahoulas. This is a very versatile breed with many genetic working abilities. Most involved want to preserve this in them. Don Abney on Catahoula breeding...

If you intend to become a breeder, I urge you to study the genetics of this breed. It is important to keep the working abilities foremost in mind when breeding. By not keeping these traits alive in the breed, you will eventually end up with a lap-dog. One that is only enjoyable to look at without any of its best traits present. This breed has been allowed to evolve for over 400 years with very few changes. Today, we know from studies that some of these traits are directly inherited. For example: It is necessary to understand what the desirable traits are and to breed for those traits. Of course, this doesn't mean that any two dogs can be bred to produce the perfect specimen. It takes a whole lot more than that. You must study the line background of each of the dogs you intend to breed. Know where they came from, and what six generations of ancestors were like. When researching, check for colors, eyes, deafness, hips or lameness, bite(teeth formation), disease, temperament, ability, conformation, etc. All of their traits must be considered, not just a few. Understand and accept the Probability, not the Possibility, of what may result from the breeding. It takes more than just two dogs to produce that great dog. It takes Time, Knowledge, and Planning.


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## wolfstraum

Is there any chance of getting this thread "pinned" - it is such an informative one for newbies (and for more experienced people too!!!)

Lee


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## Lakl

**Just a quick update**

I have an awesome vet and clinic, and my pup will be having his surgery this Thursday! We are going with the procedure my orthopedic vet recommended which is a *Femoral Head/Neck Ostectomy. *The specialist clinic, with consultation and new x-rays plus surgery was going to cost me nearly $3K for the same procedure. My vet is performing the procedure for just under $1100, to include bloodwoork, anesthesia, post-op x-rays, and medication. He is only performing the procedure on the leg that is disclocated from the hip. We will see how this goes and work on building muscle to support the leg and hips and see how the other side develops, and then determine whether the other side should be performed at a later date. The condition the hip bones are in, I imagine it is inevitable, but being able to do this surgery is a great relief to me for my pup. We won't be able to do the things I had once hoped, but at least I can give my pup a somewhat normal pain free life. Who knows? We may even be able to go on a real hike one day! 

P.S.
I have decided that I will send his X-rays into OFA. Perhaps if I can get this documented it might save one person from going through the grief I've been through...


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## carmspack

unfortunately all the "documentation" of Lakl's experience is not going to change or save any one from dealing with this . Seems it is an acceptable risk. 
The SV publishes a magazine with pages of dogs removed because of "schwere HD" . A prime culprit was the phenomenally popular Uran Wildsteiger Land with 1,800 plus progeny to his credit . Did anyone not breed to him because of his hip production.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lakl

carmspack said:


> unfortunately all the "documentation" of Lakl's experience is not going to change or save any one from dealing with this . Seems it is an acceptable risk.
> The SV publishes a magazine with pages of dogs removed because of "schwere HD" . A prime culprit was the phenomenally popular Uran Wildsteiger Land with 1,800 plus progeny to his credit . Did anyone not breed to him because of his hip production.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
That is just baffling to me that people would continue to breed to a dog that is KNOWN to throw bad hips


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## GSD Fan

Lakl said:


> That is just baffling to me that people would continue to breed to a dog that is KNOWN to throw bad hips


Do you mean he throws dogs with bad hips or dogs with hip dyplasia? 

Breeding is a very complicated thing. I am currently being taught and reading about breeding. When a breeder breeds, they can't throw out the dogs that produce undesirable traits because what happens if that dog also produces desirable traits? 

For example, let's say a dog has and produces offspring with fair hips but this dog also produces offspring who have correct temperament and conformation. It makes sense to not breed the dog with fair hips, however, you are throwing out correct temperament and conformation just because of fair hips.

Yeah, breeding is complicated. Definitely genotype over phenotype.


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## Lakl

GSD Fan said:


> Do you mean he throws dogs with bad hips or dogs with hip dyplasia?
> 
> Breeding is a very complicated thing. I am currently being taught and reading about breeding. When a breeder breeds, they can't throw out the dogs that produce undesirable traits because what happens if that dog also produces desirable traits?
> 
> For example, let's say a dog has and produces offspring with fair hips but this dog also produces offspring who have correct temperament and conformation. It makes sense to not breed the dog with fair hips, however, you are throwing out correct temperament and conformation just because of fair hips.
> 
> Yeah, breeding is complicated. Definitely genotype over phenotype.


I guess this goes back to an earlier discussion on this thread. I understand from a breeders viewpoint why taking that chance might be considered if it were being balanced out in the breeding, and it may also depend on what type of hip issues they are throwing... But for me and my case? No, it's not worth it. On the first 6 months of his life I will have already spent twice what I paid for him, and I still don't know if he will ever be able to walk normally, and he's also spent the first 6 months of his life in pain when he should be carelessly romping around like any puppy. So if I were a breeder, it would be difficult to make that kind of call when there's so many different dogs out there to breed to....


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## Uniballer

You have to understand that breeding to Uran Wildsteigerland was considered an acceptable risk by many, many German high line breeders because they wanted to win, and sell puppies. He placed VA8 in 1983. He was the BSZS sieger in 1984 and 1985. I found this 



 of him on the web. This is what is known in religious circles as "temptation" .

There was no zuchtwert system in place when he was alive, so I'm sure that the proponents of this dog simply ignored the nay-sayers, or blamed the dams for any problems.


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## justde

So along these lines, does anyone know the heritability of pannus? I never encountered it until my male developed it..I believe atypical? The 3rd eyelid is affected, but nothing into the cornea. No progression since we stared drops. Does anyone know if this comes from specific lines, or is it a general genetic affliction that occurs throughout the breed? He has one litter to date, I don't know where 2 of the pups went, the other 2, one being mine, at this point are fine. Had he been bred much before this problem developed I could have had a better picture of how many pups were affected. Here again we have a genetic problem, however one that doesn't affect the working dog the way orthopedics or temperament does, although certainly more than just cosmetic. 
Sue


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## wolfstraum

BUMP - this thread needs to be pinned or something - one of the best discussions in a long time!

Pannus - I know it does seem to run in families - but it is also considered to be symptomatic of immune system problems - I have a dog with it, his mother's half brother has quite a few progeny with it....is it genetic??? find out if others closely related to your dog have it ...

Lee


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## EllaBella

Wow... Wow... I've spent the last couple of hours reading this thread, and I have no doubt I'll spend several more trying to understand it better, along with re-reading it over and over again! I agree this should be pinned. It is extremely important information to know...Especially for the novice like me! Lakl, I'm so sorry to hear about your pup!! 

~Ella


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## carmspack

I have not had a look at this site for some time. The problems with Uran Wildsteiger Land , and Canto were well known , results published in the SV magazine --- many progeny with schwere HD -- severe.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lakl

EllaBella said:


> Wow... Wow... I've spent the last couple of hours reading this thread, and I have no doubt I'll spend several more trying to understand it better, along with re-reading it over and over again! I agree this should be pinned. It is extremely important information to know...Especially for the novice like me! Lakl, I'm so sorry to hear about your pup!!
> 
> ~Ella


Ella,
Here is another good one to read through as well. Carmen and Cliff are both great contributors on this one in addition to a few others that all provide great info. Gives you a lot to consider and opens up your eyes on a lot of things regarding selecting a pup. I hope these help your search!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...70-question-re-working-line-temperaments.html

P.S.
Thanks on the well wishes. He just turned 11 months and still has one more surgery to go, but is getting better everyday!


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## Lakl

carmspack said:


> I have not had a look at this site for some time. The problems with Uran Wildsteiger Land , and Canto were well known , results published in the SV magazine --- many progeny with schwere HD -- severe.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Carmen,
I'm sure I've asked this before, but this topic just continues to baffles me. Why?? If these dogs were well documented as producing many progeny with severe HD, were they considered such an asset in the breeding world?? Are their progeny's successes more heavily documented than the ones with issues?


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## GSD Fan

I went back and read some of the earlier and I do agree, this thread needs to be stuck!

It reminds of the Siberian kennel back in the days. I'd have to dig up a book to see if I am mixing kennels up, but this particular kennel in my opinion is really the best siberian kennel to date and is the best dog kennel I have ever seen. They did not breed very often, but they used their time to title their dogs and do much research on their dogs and their pedigrees and etc. This research took a long time, which is what they had and which is what is necessary to breed quality over quantity. This same kennel, they had a litter in which EVERY single one of the puppies was of breeding quality and finished their CH. Very impressive and I think that is something every breeder of breed should strive for. 

This thread is not only good for German Shepherds, but breeding in general.


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## ksotto333

Lakl said:


> Carmen,
> I'm sure I've asked this before, but this topic just continues to baffles me. Why?? If these dogs were well documented as producing many progeny with severe HD, were they considered such an asset in the breeding world?? Are their progeny's successes more heavily documented than the ones with issues?


I started reading this last night..it's very interesting..it'll take me more than once to understand it though. I also wondered why those dogs were so heavily bred.


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## PupperLove

What an eye opener, what an awesome, awesome thread. I had to stop many times to do extra research to understand what was being talked about before continuing. But I have a totally different view on breeding. Thanks to all who contributed, and Lakl, I'm so sorry about your pup. Your story has a major impact on this thread, for sure.

BUMP! 

This is a must read for anyone who wants to become a breeder!!


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## Lakl

I LOVE this thread, and every time someone mentions it, I find myself going back to read it again. This is one of those that you just want Carm and Cliff to keep going on and give us more, more! And then of course, after reading, I always want to PM one of them to PLEASE make me a puppy! .


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## Beau

Lakl said:


> I LOVE this thread, and every time someone mentions it, I find myself going back to read it again. This is one of those that you just want Carm and Cliff to keep going on and give us more, more! And then of course, after reading, *I always want to PM one of them to PLEASE make me a puppy!* .


I just found this thread and read it through....

And I came away thinking the same thing!!


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## wolfstraum

Lakl said:


> Carmen,
> I'm sure I've asked this before, but this topic just continues to baffles me. Why?? If these dogs were well documented as producing many progeny with severe HD, were they considered such an asset in the breeding world?? Are their progeny's successes more heavily documented than the ones with issues?



When these dogs were being bred, the ZW system was not in place...this was about WINNING...

the attitude here in the States - particularly as expressed by people who love GSDs, have companion GSDs, and are not active in any sport - is vastly different from the European and especially the European breeder from my exposure/experience. Hips are only ONE line on a punch list of attributes considered in a breeding....and every aspect has a risk factor of being carried through....temperament, dentition, hips, coat, color....etc etc

It is common in Germany (from the people I have spoken to!!) that a dog or pup with bad hips will be put down rather than seeking a home for that dog if it is in a competition home (pet home - don't know!) but the people who show/trial/compete/breed UNDERSTAND that there are many negative variables that can show up - hips, drive, temperament, grips, courage, etc - that will wash the prospect out of their program....hips are no more or less important than any other. Frankly, MANY dogs who fail OFAs or 'a' stamps still live happy productive lives. Not all are severely dysplastic, and many get titled and are active in sports or real work...many live full lives as pets... a smaller percentage are severe enough to be surgical candidates or be euthanized 

One of the problems today is the line breeding and back massing on these well known dogs who were poor hip producers....even with the closer generations showing clear - the back massing allows a larger risk for the genes of the poor hips to come through - just like the issues with Lance of Fran Jo affecting the ASL population. Breeders breed to change angulation of forearm, set of ears, coup, tail - all the things they can see...but the conformation of the hip joint is not visible, so they don't think about it in the same way...I believe as technology progesses, we will be able to see the hip x-rays of our breeding stock and potential mates more easily and can take them into account in our breeding decisions! 

Lee


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## cliffson1

Good Post Lee!


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## Saxtonhill

Cliff...you mentioned having video of Fanto free moving ...is this something that I can access on line or would I need to purchase this somewhere? I would also like to see video/motion pictures of dogs from 30, 40 50 years ago and earlier if possible. Can anyone advise me here as to where to gain access to such material?

Carmen...thank you also for the excellent and thought provoking discussion. This is a thread to be saved and studied. 

I am primarilly interested in structure, anatomy and movement as it pertains to the canine (or equine) athlete. It seems to me, from what I have observed, particuarly in race horses, that the most efficient movers are not always the flashiest in type, though they may be excellent examples of their breed...but they have superb balance and function. 

Once again, thank you all and I am pinning and saving this discussion. Though I have been involved with dogs and horses for thirty years, one never stops learning.


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## cliffson1

The video on Fanto is a 90 minute VHS/DVD on the life of Fanto vom Hirschel. Excellent video showing him winning both Seiger shows, shows him swimming, doing bite work, relaxing with family, and many gaiting performances. Truly a very nice dog, though his history of male production is very disappointing.


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## carmspack

I've got some ideas to reactivate this thread . I was gifted decades worth of reference material by Linda Shaw including Schutzhund USA and Das Schaferhund Magazin and Working Dog and German Shepherd Quarterlies and some other SV publication - whew - I need to build a new wing to the house to stash all this stuff . 

One of the first things I read was in Das Schaferhund Magazin had to do with "funny" business with measurements of dogs and how serious a problem over size has become -- and even pending law suits --- very interesting -- . 
I remember heated threads on this forum from those who want a customized dog and if they want a 29 inch 120 pound "gsd" then so be it , no concerns for the bigger picture -- oops , I mean the balanced view and importance of a standard .
want to go ahead ?


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## wolfstraum

this thread needs to be "pinned" as there is so much information here that is valuable food for thought for anyone looking for a puppy.

and adding to it rather than making a new one is keeping this one available....

Lee


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## Saxtonhill

Thanks Cliff! I will investigate that DVD of Fanto!  

I would also enjoy seeing videos/DVDs of great working dogs from the past (I recall one of Mink and one of Lord that were both fascinating...and they were dogs of the 1980s and early 90s...not all too long ago)

I sincerely thank you all for the historical discussion! 

Totally agree Lee...this thread is a gem that needs to be archived/"pinned"


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## Merciel

Great thread. I just finished reading through the whole thing and it's been invaluable information to me as a total newbie to purebreds. 

Thank you so much to everyone who contributed!


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## carmspack

resurrecting this because this deserves and needs to be added to this thread http://gsd-legends.eu/Varia/DSH-Geschichte.pdf mostly in German , portions in English , graphs self explanatory. 

Besides the comments about show and working which are expressed as statistics there are some excellent results of years of comparison with hip production - show vs working listing main influential studs.

Go to pages 55 onward if you want to head straight to the charts on hip production percentages.

There needs to be regulation on the allowable stud services of one male per year , otherwise there will be a further narrowing of genetics . starting page 80 , 81 covers stud business for the elites "
The absolute frontrunner or let’s call him the revenue-champion of the 5-year period 2003-2007 would be
Quantum von Arminius. If we would estimate a stud fee of 1,200 Euros per jump, he would have made 477,600
Euros in this period of time, little less than half a million Euros. Without any expenses of course! Elementary,​the female comes to the male. In this case and at this scale, the definition "hobby" is by no means appropriate:


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## carmspack

back to English page 91
page 102 *
History​*Since the Martin brothers Hermann and Walter (after they got rid of Dr. Rummel* in the most unpleasant
fashion) changed Captain Max von Stephanitz’s heritage, from a “Gebrauchshund“ (working dog) into a „luxurydog“
(read: profitable Photoshop-model), the Sieger needs to please the eye of the beholder only, who is either
the SV-President or the National Breed Warden. Hermann Martin crowned his brother Walter’s Zamb (despite
most questionable HD-history), and later Kimon van Dan Alhedys’ Hoeve (a Mark vom Haus Beck son!) with the
Sieger title, during which Dr. Beck simultaneously crowned Vanta von der Wienerau VA1 and Kelly von
Arminius VA2, thank you! And why not throw in some more titles for the family? Wanni von der Wienerau with
VA4 and Nathalie von der Wienerau VA6. Dr. Beck is satisfied enough as he is with the last VA7 place for Vanta
vom Haus Beck. One must know the pecking order and yield.
(Note: During the Martin-era, the most important titles were distributed between three kennels only:
Hermann’s own kennel “von Arminius”, his brother Walter’s kennel “von der Wienerau” and the one of his best
friend Martin Göbl: “vom Wildsteiger Land”.)
*: Quote from my manuscript: „Dr. Christopher Rummel from Viernheim, let’s just say a southerner, proprietor
of the kennel „von Ägidiendamm“ was elected president in 1971. His rival candidate had been Dr. Ernst Beck
from the north, from Wiebelskirchen in Prussia, with his kennel „vom Haus Beck“. Meanwhile we have learned,
how grievous the consequences of this election have been on the German Shepherd Dog. Viernheim (which
today still is a symbol for dogs from the kennels „von Arminius“ and „von der Wienerau“, owned by the
brothers Hermann and Walter Martin) became the “capital” of Shepherd Dog Country, although many people
think that Rummel and Walter Martin did not like each other very much. Could be that the dedication (​​​​​​​​​¹​
obsession) of Dr. Rummel to exterminate Canine Hip Dysplasia didn’t please everyone. (That’s my kind of man!)
During his term in office tattooing was introduced in 1971 already. Now that would at least cut down on some
of the cheating.
In 1969 Rummel had been able to judge the Gebrauchshundeklasse Rüden for the first time. Straightaway a
Wienerau-dog was elected into the Auslese-group: Quanto von der Wienerau became VA4. His color would
soon be a money-spinner and the utmost breeding goal alike. In those days a completely black dog was still
competing in the Auslese-group, Frei von der Gugge VA8, it’s been a long time. As an extremely hard dog it was
clear he belonged to the working dog fans. Henceforth the so-called two “populations”, as they had already
been partially created before at the moment of splitting the East and the West, would now also consolidate
further within the Bundesrepublik (Federal Republic) itself. Viernheim was the center for focusing on anatomy,
on the gorgeous dog, on aesthetics. Step-by-step one would start to neglect „die Leistung“ (the working
abilities) within what was Germany at that time.​103​And


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## cliffson1

CARMEN, tell the truth! You know Cliff the basher wrote this! There's no way that certain people on this forum could allow themselves to accept from indisputable source what I have said about the historical and current condition of these lines! Now I know other knowledgable people have also tried to convey this information, but I think the apologist find me the biggest culprit. The irony is I don't believe in lines, I believe a quality GS is a good sound, noble, athletic, strong working dog whose beauty is in its ability to perform its utility. I look at color and lines like I do hips, I like them if they are functional, I don't think they should be used for breeding if they are severely lacking. Simple,.....this new found thinking that whatever you like regardless of its comportment to the standard is allowable; is faulty thinking primarily used by specialist in a utility dog world. 
Carmen, though what you highlighted in blue comes from far more reputable sources than myself, it is a far more accurate account of the breed than the opinions of people who base their views on LIKES as opposed to history and standard. But forums gives everyone equal footing in their opinions, even if not grounded in fact or knowledge, or should I say very limited knowledge..
In Germany, it is now about money when it comes to this breed, especially producing for international community that often couldn't tell standard working components if they wanted, for many Americans its about the aesthetic beauty of the GSL dog, though they often know diddly about the dogs they are promoting, the real irony is all these dogs have certs and titles, so to the uninformed pet owners and breeders these are the creme de la creme.....lol......but to the real working world for which this dog was created and STILL can be utilized .....you seldom see these dogs anymore! So very sad!


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> If people really understood this they wouldn't have maintained what they did through him in other countries. I have always felt that Germany bred a certain type of dog to market to the world for monetary gain and they developed another type with totally different genetics for work. Do you think it is a coincidence that none of the top working kennels in Germany have used Canto's lines or derivatives of his lines for decades. They know the money is in black and red and there is a vast world out there that places more value on the part of the iceberg they can see. That the continued breeding on these early same dogs leading to higher incidences of health and temperament problems doesn't bother them because they are exporting most of them for profit and keeping only enough for replenishment.
> Carmen, you know as well as I, 40 years ago, when there was no separation in lines and VA dogs were all colors and types, YOU could not buy a VA dog. During the sixties/seventies, we had Erko vom Dinkelland for a long time as the only VA dog in the country. They hardley ever parted with VA stock. But as soon as they developed this line off of Canto/Quanto....everything was for sale at the right price.
> Oh Well!!


It's not just a feeling, it is a well known fact. Showline breeding is a Billion Dollar Business, especially when you look at what China is dishing out for these dogs, or Thailand. It's the sad truth.


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## carmspack

Cliff this thread is like a working GSD - so versatile ! so much information is relevant , a good sticky for anyone entertaining the thought of breeding .

Found this page 88 - previously he had provided a fact-rant on the folly of Canto, his faulty sire Hein Konigsbruch , his faulty dam Liane Wienerau . In translation he says the VA Sieger for 2000 Ursus Batu is 6 times inbred on Palme. A person can barley believe this . But it is true . "
Der Auslesesieger 2000,​Ursus von Batu, ist 6 X ingezogen auf Palme. Man kann es kaum glauben. Aber es ist wahr.“


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## carmspack

with exacto knife precission the powers that be , Wienerau and Arminius kennels , decided that "the" lines that would be the showlines stem from Canto, Quanto, Palme.

Bernd , Bodo Lierberg , competing in the same time frame were left without a Lobby , no support, no, less than support , a deliberate turning away from - although they had so much to offer for conformation and for working "leistung" 

This would have been fascinating had a dog such as this been key to the formation of a line - an alternative to Canto / Quanto
VA Hardt vom Sprühturm this from the pedigree data base 
*Sire Born : 15. February 1968*



to my eye excellent conformation interpretation of the breed standard . This is the conformation of a tireless working dog - although I would look for a better foot.

What a pedigree ! 
_Die Bernd und Bodo-Linie hatte scheinbar keine Lobby, denn aus dieser Linie gab es auch leistungsstarke, sowie_
_auch gebäudemässig überragende Tiere wie Bredo vom Lichtburghof, Joll von Bemholt und sein Sohn Hardt vom_
_Sprühturm, sowie Seffe vom Busecker Schloß, VA, und Bruder Sirk, Junghundsieger!_
„Hermann Martin regte dann die vermehrte Benutzung der beiden Rüdenlinien Canto und Quanto an und​
engte meines Erachtens die blutliche Auslese noch weiter ein. Da beide"


this tiny script is my input -- in spite of early warnings from the likes of Alfred Hahn 

now quoting from page 89 "
Alte erfahrene Züchter
erwähnten schon sehr früh, dass fehlendes Pigment oft auch mit fehlender Härte und Arbeitsbereitschaft
verbunden sei. Viele Artikel der SV-Hefte der 60-iger Jahre haben dieses Thema behandelt und oft waren
Hunde der Leistungsstämme im HGH Bereich wie Alfred Hahn erwähnte, dunkelgraue oder tiefpigmentierte,​oft sehr dunkelfarbige Tiere. Auf alle Fälle waren den Züchtern vor gut 40 Jahren,"


----------



## carmspack

I started reading this article late last night into the early hours of today -- made it to 103 .

Here is another nugget "
You must be just as surprised as I was at the fact that there is actually only one single decisive blood line left.
Even today this very line dominates the whole stud business of the top dogs in the Hochzucht. The blood line
starts with the forefathers of Xaver von Arminius and Palme vom Wildsteiger Land. Do go ahead and study the
genealogy table of this couple.
Now this is how almost all genealogy tables in the Hochzucht look like today. They are all the same! And the
dogs as well are very much... the same, uniform, too big and too heavy and of the same color... exemplarily.​They are all copies of one another


----------



## cliffson1

Like I have said ad finitum...........sigh! My opinions are not made up from likes or envy....they are based in fact and data.


----------



## carmspack

I am organizing my office which is jam packed with books , magazines, archival material. Of course I have to stop , read, contemplate articles before deciding their fate.

here is something from one of the German Shepherd Quarterly magazines dated Summer 1993 , explaining the difference between show and working lines. The writer offers this "Walter Martin owner of Wienerau kennels, is probably the most successful living breeder of international show dogs, and he talks about the difference in temperament between working and show dogs in the Leerburg Video Productions tape entitled "Walter Martin Lecture". In it he is very candid about the type of temperament needed to gait and show successfully at the Sieger Show. he says that dogs with great character and temperament are rarely top show dogs because they gait a couple of times around the ring, take a look at everyone and everything and then wonder why they should keep doing this. They get bored and won't gait on and on with the energy and presence needed to do well.
Martin tells how he breeds to "crazy" and even shy dogs periodically to keep the desire to gait ."

screech ....


----------



## onyx'girl

> Martin tells how he breeds to "crazy" and even shy dogs periodically to keep the desire to gait ."


And look what he did....


----------



## holland

I took a show handling class with Rorie and she had fun-think she enjoyed just seeing different breeds-not sure how she would do in a show-but I think the dog has to have personality and you can see that in some shows-but then I have never actually shown so what do I know


----------



## Freestep

carmspack said:


> Martin tells how he breeds to "crazy" and even shy dogs periodically to keep the desire to gait ."
> 
> screech ....


 I remember reading that... where was that article first printed?


----------



## shepherdmom

I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I find it fascinating and I want to be able to find it again. Hence this message.


----------



## wolfstraum

Great find Carmen!!!

Is there any article about the illegal inbreedings done by the Martins to "fix type"....and records falsified??? I remember seeing something on PDB YEARS ago about the ban on the kennel being lifted....When DNA came about, it was shown that so many dogs' papers had been falsified, that the kennels of both Martin's were suspended by the SV for breeding and registering dogs....over 300 dogs had papers pulled and re-issued....

I have only 'heard' about this from a few people, and have seen very little alluding to the situation in English...

There was also an interesting article in an old (late 90's) article - I think written by Ricardo Carajabel (sp?) about a conversation with one of the Martin's in a bar/pub in Germany....what stuck out to me was the comment that if a dog growled or nipped a child, it did not see the next sunrise. Then why is fear aggression so rampant?

Lee


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

cliffson1 said:


> Also, you cannot breed with extensive linebreeding on "Great well rounded" dogs for long periods or you will still have these consequences occur, it will just be the unseen negatives the dog possesses. Dogs like Bernd v Lierberg, or Held v Ritterberg, or Mutz v d Pelztierferm, and Marko vom Cellerland, who were all very strong in temperament, structure, and producing temperament and structure in their progeny.....have all showed when breeders have tried to extensively inbreed or longterm linebreed, the results started producing high negatives in teeth, testicle, ear sets and ear standing, oversize, undersize, dullness, sharpness, short upperarms, etc. You see though, these dogs were balanced and strong in all of the areas of the iceberg that we see, they still carried negative recessives that when pounded together generation after generation...started to be dominants. Now these recessive negatives are dominant in the newly created dogs and the sad fact is they started ahead of the game in the beginning. Just food for thought; as some will only see Showline in these posts and not see the overall picture of the damage of indiscriminate breeding. (Of course some don't want to read this because its the basis of their breeding programs:wild:...lol)


Cliff, you started this thread before I joined, but this is a great thread, great logic. I used to train and show Arabian horses, and saw so much of the same flawed thinking as you point out here, but with horses, you don't see such far-reaching effects as quickly since mares produce only one foal a year. But the effects are still there, example being so many Arabian horse breeders breeding for size and gait that more resembles Saddlebred performance--not the small, hardy, versatile horse the Arabian has been for thousands of years.


----------



## carmspack

there was a huge scandal with paper work being falsified -- that is why DNA requirement came up. 
Had those discussions. Unfortunately the people that were in the know are deceased. 

There is an article which I need to scare up which is a kennel visit to Walter Martin's residence . The American Judge interviewer --_ I believe to be on recollection Fred Lanting who used to conduct tours apre BSZS -- states that he was met at the fence by very wound up , barking dogs . _
_I knew I had this covered before from this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...erican-show-lines-breeders-bloodlines-13.html_








I once read an interview with a famous German breeder (can't remember his name) who breeds showline dogs, and he said his method was to inject a working dog (I believe his words were "a total nut") every 4th or 5th generation, to keep the working attributes in his dogs. He said the first generation crosses would be all over the map in terms of drive, temperament, and conformation, but by choosing the offspring wisely he was able to continue producing V-rated dogs that were also strong in the work. I found this very interesting.[/QUOTE]


Hi Freestep -- that interview would have been with Walter Martin , head of the SV , and breeder of von Wienerau. The wild idiot total nut that he was talking about was his crazy female Vanta Ricardo Carbajal's 1992 Interview with Famous Breeder of the "von der Wienerau" German Shepherd Dogs

from the opening paragraph where dogs greeted the interviewer , all with raised hackles ... hmmm , 

the red comes from Berta Lorscher Sand , who along with colour , put her stamp of temperament problems onto the progeny 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## robk

This is by far the most informative thread on the forum. Thank you to Cliff and Carmen along with everyone else who have contributed. A must Re-read.


----------



## cliffson1

If this thread is able to help impressionable newbies in their quest to continue this magnificent breed, then everyone should be congratulated for making it possible to be read.:hug:


----------



## carmspack

so my previous post mentioned the Martin brothers and their influence on the breed --- 

-- still organizing my office , which will take forever and ever because I keep finding old files, old books .

one of them is a gem . a bound hardcopy book of the German Shepherd Dog Review volume 16 dated 1939 . John Gans is advertising his Ch Pfeffer von Bern , German Sieger 1937 , USA Grand Victor 37 and 1938 for a fee of $50.00 . His kennel mate Holland Sieger 1934 , Ch Attilas Argos CD at stud for $40. Cosalta , Liebestraum , San Miguel , Giralda Farms , were the lead kennels. 

Feeding raw was the NORM . You have ads by C Van Leeuwen of Woodside Long Island who offers a complete kennel food service providing Vanco Fresh Meat , made and handled as FOOD .
Vanco Beef , beef tripe, lamb, ground beef , cubed beef , beef cheeks , beef hearts - also available canned . Surprisingly I did not see any ads for horsemeat which was a staple , and the unnamed "mystery" meat in canned food right up to the early 60's .

You do have many ads pushing the "new" way of feeding . Pet-Mil Dog Food . Cero-Meato , lol , probably the "science diet" of its day.
The ad says Cero-Meato bears the official seal of approval granted on the basis of biological and chemical analysis made under the supervision of the committee on foods of the American Animal Hospital Association . The ingredients? "a wonderful dry kibbled food made of wheat flour, bone meal, corn meal, soya bean meal, alfalfa meal, meat scrap , molasses, salt, cod liver oil, yeast, and wheat germ" . There was another ad which I saw while flipping through , and now can't find -- simply Dog Breads --kibbles. Bannock Body Builder proudly factory made , manufactured food . For $1.00 they will send you a ten pound sample .

the real interesting piece though is a counter point to the Martin brothers and their influence on the breed , now representing "working" because even then , in 1939 and before , there was a separation of the two , is an article written by the daughter of von Stephanitz, Herta. Of all people , an early promoter of obedience , Winnifred Strickland had the opportunity to interview Herta . 
In an interview taken in 1932 , offered in the Review of Nov 1939 , Herta says "a definite race of age-old development , which we took in hand nearly 30 years ago also strictly according to the plan , by carefully selecting from the country stock the best specimens suitable for breeding purposes to be found, in order to perfect the build to our requirements . Even when, in border districts, imported dogs are mated with the native specimens, one can not call it crossbreeding , but mating of animals of the same race. The local differences are, in view of their common origin and development, and also the same uses to which they have been put, not influenced by political frontiers"

more.......


----------



## carmspack

..... Herta von Stephanitz " We must not put a too narrow construction on the term "pure-breeding" as applied to the breeding of Shepherd dogs as utility dogs and not look upon the results obtained by mating a highly bred dog with one from the country as crossbred . It must be clearly understood, however, that the latter whether used for sheep herding or as a farm watch dog , must be unspoiled and true to type, even though he need not be a registered dog. 

...... here ...... "the shepherd dog nature and characteristics will be more pronounced by virtue of their being employed in the profession for which they are destined , where the inherent Shepherd Dogs qualities are, more often than not, lost sight of in the town dogs


----------



## onyx'girl

Thank you for sharing this, Carmen!

Please don't give your resources away(like you generously did to that one person a yr ago or so, which will never be seen again?)...there should be a museum for such items to be preserved.


----------



## carmspack

there are certain books and documents that are not going anywhere . Between Linda Shaw and myself there are many --- too many !


----------



## carmspack

basically what she was saying is that it is more important that the dog continues to be bred for purpose even if that means using a functional working dog without registration as long as the heritage is of a similar purpose. Using this tactic allows for no compromises on the quality of the working character . In the early pedigrees , which would still be in the 1932 era you see pedigrees with "unknown" . They knew what and who , but not registered.  In Herta's comments my interpretation is that you are more likely to get "true" GSD character by going to the honest day-to-day working dog than the high bred town dog so enjoyed by the well heeled, those bred for looks.

The German Shepherd


----------



## cliffson1

I wonder what Herta would think about the different " Lines" that the reputable breeders have developed today? Hmmmmmm.


----------



## Liberatore

It seems as though the original idea of the German Shepherd breed survey was similar to that of the warmblood horses. In a nutshell, if the horse is acceptable as far as physical traits go, and passes performance testing, it is accepted into the stud book regardless of breed. Open registry. You often have horses of one stud book accepted into another, and Arabians and Thoroughbreds accepted into the stud books of Warmbloods for breeding purposes. Less 'pure breed' than performance based criteria.

Ang


----------



## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> so my previous post mentioned the Martin brothers and their influence on the breed ---
> 
> -- still organizing my office , which will take forever and ever because I keep finding old files, old books .
> 
> one of them is a gem . a bound hardcopy book of the German Shepherd Dog Review volume 16 dated 1939 . John Gans is advertising his Ch Pfeffer von Bern , German Sieger 1937 , USA Grand Victor 37 and 1938 for a fee of $50.00 . His kennel mate Holland Sieger 1934 , Ch Attilas Argos CD at stud for $40. Cosalta , Liebestraum , San Miguel , Giralda Farms , were the lead kennels.
> 
> Feeding raw was the NORM . You have ads by C Van Leeuwen of Woodside Long Island who offers a complete kennel food service providing Vanco Fresh Meat , made and handled as FOOD .
> Vanco Beef , beef tripe, lamb, ground beef , cubed beef , beef cheeks , beef hearts - also available canned . Surprisingly I did not see any ads for horsemeat which was a staple , and the unnamed "mystery" meat in canned food right up to the early 60's .
> 
> You do have many ads pushing the "new" way of feeding . Pet-Mil Dog Food . Cero-Meato , lol , probably the "science diet" of its day.
> The ad says Cero-Meato bears the official seal of approval granted on the basis of biological and chemical analysis made under the supervision of the committee on foods of the American Animal Hospital Association . The ingredients? "a wonderful dry kibbled food made of wheat flour, bone meal, corn meal, soya bean meal, alfalfa meal, meat scrap , molasses, salt, cod liver oil, yeast, and wheat germ" . There was another ad which I saw while flipping through , and now can't find -- simply Dog Breads --kibbles. Bannock Body Builder proudly factory made , manufactured food . For $1.00 they will send you a ten pound sample .
> 
> the real interesting piece though is a counter point to the Martin brothers and their influence on the breed , now representing "working" because even then , in 1939 and before , there was a separation of the two , is an article written by the daughter of von Stephanitz, Herta. Of all people , an early promoter of obedience , Winnifred Strickland had the opportunity to interview Herta .
> In an interview taken in 1932 , offered in the Review of Nov 1939 , Herta says "a definite race of age-old development , which we took in hand nearly 30 years ago also strictly according to the plan , by carefully selecting from the country stock the best specimens suitable for breeding purposes to be found, in order to perfect the build to our requirements . Even when, in border districts, imported dogs are mated with the native specimens, one can not call it crossbreeding , but mating of animals of the same race. The local differences are, in view of their common origin and development, and also the same uses to which they have been put, not influenced by political frontiers"
> 
> more.......


You and I still need to do lunch and talk dog. Thanks for sharing that!


----------



## meldy

Beau said:


> I just found this thread and read it through....
> 
> 
> 
> And I came away thinking the same thing!!



Ditto...now I'm going to go back and read it again! Lots of information....wow


Your playing small does not serve the world. Who are you not to be great?~Nelson Mandela


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## willoglen

What several others have said: I found it; read it; and I want to be able to find it again.

Thanks for the great information!


----------



## carmspack

so , often neglected but of great importance to the breed are the females , and so in a quiet moment I began to review the "great" females of the breed . Who would I want -- . "A" litter Stoppenberger Land , Afra in particular , Anja, Ashra ,

Afra vom Stoppenberger Land

Certainly was a great foundation for Karthago . 

Looking further into Karthago's planning , I come across an article Das Schaferhund Magazin April 2008 , interviewing the breeder Artur Kemmer and Ursual Kemmer. German only , no translation . A person to listen to !

In the discussion there is much back and forth talking about the past, the dogs of the past and what hope is there for the future. 

He said (paraphrasing) .... "before there was a splitting division between show and working (schonheit und leistung) (meaning beauty and performance) the difference was not so great.

At the BSP of 1973 there were 14 progeny of VA dogs , though 10 of those were from Bodo and Bernd Lierberg .

In 1978 there were 10 VA dog's progeny in BSP , however not directly from B Lierberg any more , still of the family. 

That was from a time when there was still an overlap of the two types.

Now there are unfortunately no progeny of high bred (Hochzuchthunden) any more that can represent , participate at the BSP. Before there was a period where there was an overlap .

Before the quality of the dogs was better, some showdog could still generate a good performance in protection work (schutzdienst) , but today again it is the case that , that they are just not there .
This class of these dogs or their progeny can not compete in the BSP. 

In the last years the protection works required in the BSZS was a little bit more demanding so that the requirements inevitably will improve performance and increase the numbers of that . 

In this idea (Zusammenhang erfaren) (ideology -- context) Kemmer and the outspoken breed warden Reinhardt Meyer thought the best approach was to recognize those with the best protection work be highlighted , put in the spotlight , as above average "an improvement" recommended whether that dog is V15 or V30 .
This is not for VA dogs which usually belongs a category with limited breedings .

Hopefully this will improve things , make the dogs most available a better quality , rewarding in many ways .


interview Reinhardt Meyer INTERVIEW - REINHARDT MEYER

INTERVIEW-REINHARDT MEYER

They say it is good to do a 5 year over view to see progress. Last year that would have been that milestone . How's it going?


----------



## Vandal

I just want to make a couple of brief comments here, simply based on my memory. There was a comment a few pages back concerning "extreme side gaiters like Quanto and Canto" and how they were rewarded instead of the balanced dogs like Marko. Quanto was not an extreme dog, he was a very well built and balanced dog. Marko was VA 1 in 1972, Quanto was VA 7 and never did become Sieger in Germany. He also did not bring the same temperament issues that Canto did. Yes, they stopped using that line but at the time when those dogs were shown, Marko did the best.
It was later, during the 1980s we started to see the Canto/Quanto cross. It was something the show breeders did quite a bit but we didn't really start to see things rolling down the hill at a higher rate of speed until the 1990's. Then of course, the last fiftenn years or so everything just deteriorated.

It seems many are quick to demonize Quanto because of this "click" that was done way back when. Quanto had good character and often passed it on. It was not a really strong line for working ability but I would not have attributed that to weak nerve like I might have with Canto.
The "extreme side gait" came later and was a result of that combination, (to the extreme) and selection by judges, it was not seen in Quanto. Canto went SG 4 at the 1970 Sieger Show, V1 at the 1971 show and then he was dead at four years of age.


----------



## cliffson1

Quanto certainly produced some very nice dogs both structurally and working wise. I agree with Vandal about Quanto and Canto being different in terms of producing temperament and structure. I owned a strong male out of a Holtkamper See dam who was sired by Quanto. Dog became Deleware State police dog in 1980.


----------



## girardid

can any one help me on how to start a thread i just joined this site and have a question about a breeder.


----------



## carmspack

Please take the time to read this --

Independent Inquiry into Dog
Breeding
Patrick Bateson
University of Cambridge


https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/special/final-dog-inquiry-120110.pdf


----------



## Nigel

This is a bit confusing, the reference to obedience and taking a half hour to stand up does not sound like any of the WL I've come to know. 

RC: "So what do you do to improve character?"
WM: "Every third generation you must bring in an absolute "idiot." (Laughs.) Yes, one with very quick blood, a wild one. This is very good for the working aspect of the Shepherd. In obedience you see dogs placed on a down and when the handler says "come," it takes them half an hour to stand up."


----------



## lhczth

It was his way of saying a dog lacked drive and motivation.


----------



## carmspack

actually the dogs of that era were strong and wilful and had active aggression and less than the emerging obedience "performance" and could be stubborn , needing strong authority to influence the dog.

but you could count on them !

the comment about taking half an hour to stand up is hyperbole -- but saying that his "crazy" dog is crazy is not --- that was one crazy dog who he had to be careful with as it bit him and his quests .

this is the beginning of the split. 
this is where the temperament of the show lines deviates and valuable traits are lost.

you don't insert "crazy" .


----------



## Nigel

Thanks for the responses, I thought that's what he was going for, but it almost sounds as if he's describing two different things.


----------



## carmspack

the GSD needs to be vigilant. 

If I have a dog that is vigilant , I want that dog to be clear minded , able to make the right decisions and act appropriately.

the last thing I want is crazy.


----------



## carmspack

time to add something to this thread , since this is the season of the annual show season with the big national events,

SV Sieger show should be in full swing (Sept) -- 


At the heart is the BIG MONEY business that this truly is.

so we can have more of this (quote) " Four dogs, although in 2007, a total of approximately 1,259 different stud dogs were available for selection! Any layman can see that this very much looks like a bottleneck for the blood supply."

so this year the selection will be made that will be the main stud force for the next few years -- everyone else can go home basically .

from the same article - quote "I believe that with the acquisition and use of award winning stud dogs the purpose of making profit is crystal clear and we all know that the activities are indeed clearly visible on the outside (as they are being discussed on training fields and discussion boards, scrutinized and criticized; even published in SV-Decknachrichten), and therefore, the definition of a “business” is appropriate. Now this “business” is clearly in dispute with the Club policy and regulations. End of story!

The absolute frontrunner or let’s call him the revenue-champion of the 5-year period 2003-2007 would be Quantum von Arminius. If we would estimate a stud fee of 1,200 euros per jump, he would have made 477,600 euros in this period of time, little less than half a million euros. Without any expenses of course! Elementary, the female comes to the male. In this case and at this scale, the definition "hobby" is by no means appropriate."

(jumps by the way are covers , or stud services) 

Do you see this ONE odg Quantum Arminius made an income of probably 477,600 euros.

That is industrial size income - and that invites what ?

article in full Hüftgelenksdysplasie und Ethics beim DSH 

this is such a huge issue , excerpt taken from same article " the fact that there is actually only one single decisive blood line left. Even today this very line dominates the whole stud business of the top dogs in the Hochzucht. The blood line starts with the forefathers of Xaver von Arminius and Palme vom Wildsteiger Land. Do go ahead and study the genealogy table of this couple.


Now this is how almost all genealogy tables in the Hochzucht look like today. They are all the same! And the dogs as well are very much... the same, uniform, too big and too heavy and of the same colour... exemplarily. :"

this is very important (excerpt same article) "Out of the 130 selected great stud dogs from the period of 2003 to 2007 ("great" in the sense of: great number of progeny, not great in quality), 128 dogs go back on their father's side to Palme! And 122 dogs on the mother's side go back to…, no, I must disappoint you, ALSO to Palme " and "In connection with Palme vom Wildsteiger Land, not only good qualities have intruded, but particularly the Canine Hip Dysplasia. Both of her parents could not prove perfect hips..., but that is another story altogether. "

keep on scrolling down on the article in the link I provided . You will find articles written both in German , later shown translated , and articles written in English.

it is a good expose .


----------



## carmspack

so even if they read Linda Shaw's book , lol , and changed the backs ( dreaming ), you would still have the massive problem of extremely limited genetics .


----------



## wolfstraum

It is truly amazing that someone had the guts to put this in writing....so many know it and sweep it under the rug - it is a herd of elephants of mythical proportions in the room



Lee


----------



## cliffson1

Some of us have been saying this for decades, and predicting the gene pool would continue to narrow and the structure/temperament for performance/working would further denigrate.....Well it's a decade later from 2007 and the SL certainly reflect the prognosis both physically and mentally. Back then many on this forum and other places claimed we were BASHING the SL and their genetics was fine and SV was concentrating on improving structure/temperament....I remember saying this was impossible using the same gene pool ....well a decade later...smh!
Certainly it is about money and personal likes....these breeders have little regard for the well being of the breed and they hide behind reputable because of titles and korklasses....SAD!


----------



## Nigel

Is Quantum Arminius the grandfather of Quantum Conbhairean?


----------



## onyx'girl

Looking at the new USCA magazine...it is hard to wrap my head around some of the stats.


----------



## carmspack

Nigel said:


> Is Quantum Arminius the grandfather of Quantum Conbhairean?


Conbhairean Quantum

great grandfather


----------



## Nigel

carmspack said:


> Conbhairean Quantum
> 
> great grandfather


Ok, thanks. I see Zamp in this pedigree too, isn't he also part of the bottle neck?


----------



## onyx'girl

this fb page is posting the vids and updates at the Sieger show... the courage is not there on most of the dogs.

https://www.facebook.com/gsdworldnews/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=


----------



## khanstown

carmspack said:


> Please take the time to read this --
> 
> Independent Inquiry into Dog
> Breeding
> Patrick Bateson
> University of Cambridge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it's really useful thank you so much


----------



## carmspack

I am a voracious reader so look forward to having a look at the study you provided 

is there a link?


----------



## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> I am a voracious reader so look forward to having a look at the study you provided
> 
> is there a link?


http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...www.ourdogs.co.uk/special/fi...iry-120110.pdf


----------



## carmspack

this thread has been idle for a long time .

too good for that !

here is an additional link 

https://www.louisdonald.com/problems-in-the-german-shepherd-dog---a-response.html


----------



## Aly

Thanks for bumping this up, Carmen. Know what I'll be doing this afternoon.


----------



## Nigel

carmspack said:


> this thread has been idle for a long time .
> 
> too good for that !
> 
> here is an additional link
> 
> https://www.louisdonald.com/problems-in-the-german-shepherd-dog---a-response.html


Louis appears to be more critical in this article vs what I've previously read. My basic take away is put your head in the sand for faults as long as you get that "type".


----------



## carmspack

after posting this link --

https://www.louisdonald.com/problems...-response.html

Nigel said ---
Louis appears to be more critical in this article vs what I've previously read. My basic take away is put your head in the sand for faults as long as you get that "type".


LOL - I noticed that also --- LOL -- that was after he read the Linda Shaw book. So , there is hope ? Will people listen to this man who does love the breed?

the big problem is the powers that be rule and you either follow and belong or haven't a hope .

notice how ingrained the lacking and weak temperament is . That is the big problem . Big and not likely
to change . You watch the videos of the show of shows which crown the Siegers and you are hit over the head with the truth of the inadequacy. You mention it and you are also hit over the head with those who deny and defend .


----------



## Sunsilver

I got kicked off his FB page for pointing out the way the show lines were gaiting, with the front leg lifted high, in what some people call the 'Hitler salute'! It is totally the result of unbalanced structure, as he points out in the above link, but no one in the SV show world wants to hear that.

They will tell you it's due to the dogs being gaited on a tight leash. Then I found a picture of Vegas being gaited off leash, and he was STILL gaiting pretty much the same way, with the front paw high in the air, and the rear end sagging towards the ground. 

And of course, if you post pictures of it, you get criticized for bashing a dog that doesn't belong to you... arrrg...

Sad, sad situation, and I don't see a remedy coming anytime soon. The showline males are too much of a cash cow for the breeders!

AS for Donaldson not coming out too strongly re. the structure, let's face it: he's a well-known SV judge. If he bites the hand that feeds him too hard, he's going to be out of a job! 

Just look at what the AKC managed to do to Fred Lanting...


----------



## Sunsilver

Old, vs. new:

Third photo: 2x Sieger Vegas gaiting off leash. Poor dog can't even do a proper 2-point trot! As any horseperson will tell you, a trot is where the left fore and right hind legs move in unison, alternating with the right fore and left hind, creating a 2-beat gait. Most current German show lines can't manage this.


----------



## Nigel

carmspack said:


> after posting this link --
> 
> https://www.louisdonald.com/problems...-response.html
> 
> Nigel said ---
> Louis appears to be more critical in this article vs what I've previously read. My basic take away is put your head in the sand for faults as long as you get that "type".
> 
> 
> LOL - I noticed that also --- LOL -- that was after he read the Linda Shaw book. So , there is hope ? Will people listen to this man who does love the breed?
> 
> the big problem is the powers that be rule and you either follow and belong or haven't a hope .
> 
> notice how ingrained the lacking and weak temperament is . That is the big problem . Big and not likely
> to change . You watch the videos of the show of shows which crown the Siegers and you are hit over the head with the truth of the inadequacy. You mention it and you are also hit over the head with those who deny and defend .


He does a good job of mentioning all the main problems, but will anyone listen? Doubt it, too much money changing hands. They are being replaced by Belgian shepherds, Labradors, and BEAGLES! Lol! this should be a wake up call that's somethings wrong and can't be denied from within the hierarchy. 

I know beagles are used for detection dogs in some instances due to their friendly and non imposing nature, but ....


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## Trix

cliffson1 said:


> Some of us have been saying this for decades, and predicting the gene pool would continue to narrow and the structure/temperament for performance/working would further denigrate.....Well it's a decade later from 2007 and the SL certainly reflect the prognosis both physically and mentally. Back then many on this forum and other places claimed we were BASHING the SL and their genetics was fine and SV was concentrating on improving structure/temperament....I remember saying this was impossible using the same gene pool ....well a decade later...smh!
> 
> Certainly it is about money and personal likes....these breeders have little regard for the well being of the breed and they hide behind reputable because of titles and korklasses....SAD!



While as a generalization of the breed this may be true, this is certainly FAR from being an absolute. You can make assumptions regarding different races in humans based on statistics as well... just saying. 

In “Schutzhund - Theory and Training Methods” by Susan Barwig, she says this of working dogs: “As a result of our experience with working dogs, we believe that natural retrieving behavior is absolutely essential in the Schutzhund for two reasons: because it provides a ready source of motivation and energy and because retrieving normally goes hand in hand with willingness and responsiveness. In short, natural retrievers are most often willing to please.”

I think most can agree she is more of an expert than anyone on this forum. I wonder how many working dogs aren’t interested in fetching balls. I don’t mean of every competing working dog, but even bred working dogs in general? This, of course is just one aspect of what she believes a dog needs to be successful in Schutzhund. 

My 5 month old ASL GSD fetches a ball like no ones business. He will fetch til he has nothing left in the tank. I’ll launch a ball 75’ into the lake and he brings it back. I’ll throw it when he’s not looking, and he drops his nose to the ground and zig zags the field til he finds it nearly every time. He’s been fetching like this since 12 weeks. In terms of nerves, the first time we vacuumed, he walked over to it, sniffed it out, then laid down. Heck, there’s some working dogs that won’t even swim... 

Again - I’m not an expert in working dogs or GSD’s, but I’m on my 6th dog training book in the last 4 months about everything from training, MWD’s, clickers, and now to Schutzhund out of curiosity. 

Could my ASL make the cut for Schutzhund? I have no idea, but the more I read the forums and read books, I realize he seems to be far more driven and ahead mentally than plenty of “working” bred dogs his age. 

I think the assumptions about ASL’s around here could be generalized, however the way many talk is like every one is weak nerved with no drive and it’s an absolute. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sunsilver

Trix, retrieving is one thing, but how would your dog respond to being challenged by a decoy, or hit with a padded stick? That requires a lot more than prey drive!

Reminds me of what was posted earlier re. protection dogs: 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...onal-protection-training-gsd.html#post8759186



> When I was in the Schutzhund sport the drop out rate was simply astounding. I was pretty green myself. I had help selecting dogs, training and competing. We're it not for my own competitiveness, hard headedness and flat out drive I would have stopped too. I guess I was matched with the dog. *most of the drop out came on the protection field. Many good trackers and obedience dogs simply could not handle the stress and pressure of protection training.
> 
> For example part of the training involved the " stick hit". It demonstrates the ability to work through some pain. Initially this was with a willow or bamboo hard stick, directed to the dogs' withers. During the Sch lll exercise the dog got four stick hits. The helpers were very specifically trained how to do this, green horns not allowed to do this. Many dogs checked out here the first time.* This is not a whack to disable the dog by any means. Yeah it will leave a red mark on your leg as was demonstrated occasionally. Dogs that passed the Sch lll level were pretty solid protection dogs capable of even more advanced training for LE. However the animal rights people got into it and demanded a padded stick and less force. It became more of a " thump". Like a big good boy pat you might give the dog. The result is softer dogs we see today and the distain of Sch dogs in LE. they much preferr specifically trained dogs.....the price goes with them.


I have a female that is a mix of ASL and GSL - top lines on both sides. She has 5 siegers in the first 4 generations of the sire's side of her pedigree, and her grandsire was one of the showline dogs known to produce dogs that actually could work. I got a BH with her, but was told she really didn't have what it took to go any further in the sport. Since she was already 8 years old, I decided to retire her. She's a good dog, and could take stick hits and not come off the sleeve, and probably could have gotten an IPO1 if I'd started her earlier in the sport. 

I now have a working line dog. The difference between the two is like day and night! She hits the sleeve like a guided missile, and wags her tail during the drive. Although she only weighs 55 lbs., when she lunges at the decoy, I have trouble holding her. I didn't have that problem with my 70 lb. show line dog. She is also much more athletic, and jumps a foot straight off the ground while waiting to be let inside. The muscles in her hind legs are like steel, about 3x the size of the muscle of my other dog.

They are what they've been bred for. 

OTOH, don't let that stop you from trying. You never know until you do. To give an example from the horse world, Marion Coakes took an Olympic medal in jumping with a Connemara pony!


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## Trix

Sunsilver - not quite sure yet, haven’t got that far yet and who knows if I will. 

Like I said, I’ll probably never know if my dog would be capable of Schutzhund. From what I’ve read I think he would do better than a lot of dogs that I see with problems around here. 

My point being, I see plenty of examples on this forum of “working bred dogs” that clearly don’t have the nerves or drive for Schutzhund, and honestly seem to not have the nerves or drive that even my ASL has. 

I don’t think anyone would argue that WL are clearly “more likely” to have that drive than the SL pups, however there’s obviously tons of WL pups without the drive or even the nerves to be competitive, or even as much as my ASL. 

It just bugs me a bit that so many people around here have no problem correlating weak nerves and SL and strong nerves and WL as such an absolute. 


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## cloudpump

Trix said:


> Sunsilver - not quite sure yet, haven’t got that far yet and who knows if I will.
> 
> Like I said, I’ll probably never know if my dog would be capable of Schutzhund. From what I’ve read I think he would do better than a lot of dogs that I see with problems around here.
> 
> My point being, I see plenty of examples on this forum of “working bred dogs” that clearly don’t have the nerves or drive for Schutzhund, and honestly seem to not have the nerves or drive that even my ASL has.
> 
> I don’t think anyone would argue that WL are clearly “more likely” to have that drive than the SL pups, however there’s obviously tons of WL pups without the drive or even the nerves to be competitive, or even as much as my ASL.
> 
> It just bugs me a bit that so many people around here have no problem correlating weak nerves and SL and strong nerves and WL as such an absolute.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you see a lot of generalizations when you see wl as stable, sl as weak, and asl as a bad word.
There are great dogs in all 3. The problem is, not enough breeders are breeding for ability.


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## cliffson1

Trix said:


> While as a generalization of the breed this may be true, this is certainly FAR from being an absolute. You can make assumptions regarding different races in humans based on statistics as well... just saying.
> 
> In “Schutzhund - Theory and Training Methods” by Susan Barwig, she says this of working dogs: “As a result of our experience with working dogs, we believe that natural retrieving behavior is absolutely essential in the Schutzhund for two reasons: because it provides a ready source of motivation and energy and because retrieving normally goes hand in hand with willingness and responsiveness. In short, natural retrievers are most often willing to please.”
> 
> I think most can agree she is more of an expert than anyone on this forum. I wonder how many working dogs aren’t interested in fetching balls. I don’t mean of every competing working dog, but even bred working dogs in general? This, of course is just one aspect of what she believes a dog needs to be successful in Schutzhund.
> 
> My 5 month old ASL GSD fetches a ball like no ones business. He will fetch til he has nothing left in the tank. I’ll launch a ball 75’ into the lake and he brings it back. I’ll throw it when he’s not looking, and he drops his nose to the ground and zig zags the field til he finds it nearly every time. He’s been fetching like this since 12 weeks. In terms of nerves, the first time we vacuumed, he walked over to it, sniffed it out, then laid down. Heck, there’s some working dogs that won’t even swim...
> 
> Again - I’m not an expert in working dogs or GSD’s, but I’m on my 6th dog training book in the last 4 months about everything from training, MWD’s, clickers, and now to Schutzhund out of curiosity.
> 
> Could my ASL make the cut for Schutzhund? I have no idea, but the more I read the forums and read books, I realize he seems to be far more driven and ahead mentally than plenty of “working” bred dogs his age.
> 
> I think the assumptions about ASL’s around here could be generalized, however the way many talk is like every one is weak nerved with no drive and it’s an absolute.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOT
> Since you took my post, let me respond. posts and I have never ever ever said anything was absolute about the German Shepherd. Actually even my worst critics have to admit I always distinguish between norm and exception.
> Also, what makes you think Susan knows more about the breed than anyone on this forum? Just curious?


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## Steve Strom

Trix said:


> Sunsilver - not quite sure yet, haven’t got that far yet and who knows if I will.
> 
> Like I said, I’ll probably never know if my dog would be capable of Schutzhund. From what I’ve read I think he would do better than a lot of dogs that I see with problems around here.
> 
> My point being, I see plenty of examples on this forum of “working bred dogs” that clearly don’t have the nerves or drive for Schutzhund, and honestly seem to not have the nerves or drive that even my ASL has.
> 
> I don’t think anyone would argue that WL are clearly “more likely” to have that drive than the SL pups, however there’s obviously tons of WL pups without the drive or even the nerves to be competitive, or even as much as my ASL.
> 
> It just bugs me a bit that so many people around here have no problem correlating weak nerves and SL and strong nerves and WL as such an absolute.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a good read for you Trix. It was written by Anne Kent who's on this forum. She's a contemporary of Susan Barwigs. Not me, but there are people on here worth listening to. Whatever line, you want good nerves. Watch Schutzhund through this perspective and it'll give you a better idea of why some dogs do what they do and whats being judged.

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf


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## Shepdad

cloudpump said:


> I think you see a lot of generalizations when you see wl as stable, sl as weak, and asl as a bad word.
> There are great dogs in all 3. The problem is, not enough breeders are breeding for ability.


Generalizations reflect probabilities. There is a higher probability that a WL would be more stable than a GSL; a GSL than an ASL. This is based on logic, circumstantial evidence and personal sampling, and well known in the GSD community. Stick around long enough with a large enough group of people and this is evident. For a number of years I was a member of a GSD club that had owners and breeders from all 3 groups, and none of them would disagree with the generalization and this was 20 years ago. The split has widened since then.

Of course, there are great dogs in all of them but since most biological populations or large enough sample sizes are normal curves, there will always be room at the edges of the curves. But the midpoint of the normal curves are different for all 3 and the size of the middle are different too. Let's not resort to false equivalence.

Then of course, how do you define greatness and ability. The ASL people would define it by show wins in ASL shows and gait and angulation. The GSL people would add color with different parameters for gait and angulation, in a totally different show community. The WL people would define it differently too but would not exclude looks. There are plenty of gorgeous WL that V in SV conformation. Then the standards of temperament are different too. The ASL people would define a dog that does not bite the judge and does not wig out from the crowds and the environment in shows (an environment that many undersensitized dogs from any line would find stressful). The GSL people would add nominal Sch titles, the whole system of which has been under a cloud for many, many years. The WL breeders have a wider variety of temperament standards. All 3 lines face the standard of being acceptable family dogs and home companions which is the work of 99.9% of GSDs. All 3 lines are capable of producing dogs that turn out to be acceptable family dogs and family companions depending on the particular set of circumstances.

Dogs are the animals that humans created and they unfortunately reflect human vices and weaknesses.


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## cloudpump

Shepdad said:


> Generalizations reflect probabilities. There is a higher probability that a WL would be more stable than a GSL; a GSL than an ASL. This is based on logic, circumstantial evidence and personal sampling, and well known in the GSD community. Stick around long enough with a large enough group of people and this is evident. For a number of years I was a member of a GSD club that had owners and breeders from all 3 groups, and none of them would disagree with the generalization and this was 20 years ago. The split has widened since then.
> 
> Of course, there are great dogs in all of them but since most biological populations or large enough sample sizes are normal curves, there will always be room at the edges of the curves. But the midpoint of the normal curves are different for all 3 and the size of the middle are different too. Let's not resort to false equivalence.
> 
> Then of course, how do you define greatness and ability. The ASL people would define it by show wins in ASL shows and gait and angulation. The GSL people would add color with different parameters for gait and angulation, in a totally different show community. The WL people would define it differently too but would not exclude looks. There are plenty of gorgeous WL that V in SV conformation. Then the standards of temperament are different too. The ASL people would define a dog that does not bite the judge and does not wig out from the crowds and the environment in shows (an environment that many undersensitized dogs from any line would find stressful). The GSL people would add nominal Sch titles, the whole system of which has been under a cloud for many, many years. The WL breeders have a wider variety of temperament standards. All 3 lines face the standard of being acceptable family dogs and home companions. All 3 lines are capable of producing dogs that turn out to be acceptable family dogs and family companions depending on the particular set of circumstances.
> 
> Dogs are the animals that humans created and they unfortunately reflect human vices and weaknesses.


Thanks for expanding on my post


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## carmspack

The GSD community lost a good friend of the breed when she passed away , are too young , of cancer.

I was working on a project at that time --- one of her commercial edu-tainment videos - this one all about SAR and tracking from selecting genetics , to early feeding , TESTING, nd socializing . The key word is natural .
Everything was set to go . Our script and philosophy approved , location, film crew, "stars" and narrator all picked .
And then before it could be finished the project was abandoned.
She owned the copy right to the work.

I used her male , Derry von Greifenstein to sire a litter . He is the dog that graces the cover of her Schutzhund book.
Derry being the brother to one of the few Siegerins of the BSP -- Dunja von Greifenstein Dunja vom Greifenstein 

Sue liked what we had so leased a female from us . 

The key word is natural . 

However this is a relatively new concept as far as a performance test .

Had I mentioned this to an olde time working breeder , eruopean, I would have been met with a facial exprression seen on the face of someone discovery a fresh pile of poo in the corner .

yes- I did do a soft poll on this -- with help of old Joe Kuhn -- or ask the oft mentioned Manfred Heyne --- where a 10 week old was put into the pen with a young lamb to observe the dogs NATURAL inclination to be attracted to sheep , and assert authority over it . Not for a ball reward . 

think of any shepherd on the plains of Turkey with his herding dogs , using ball play to select his working herders or to create breeding strategies . It just wasn't and isn't done.

that was the gist of the little video effort . I would have showed little 8 week to 16 month old pups doing free choice , competent, focused , SELF-rewarding tracks . 

Going back to genetic obedience , which has nothing to do with sit, down and stay !

Super great that your dog is a ball play fiend . This is a beautiful way to connect , provide fun, energy release and to motivate and mold behaviours .e

Does it translate to a dog being a good candidate for IPO . No. 

so to your statement
c"ould my ASL make the cut for Schutzhund? I have no idea, but the more I read the forums and read books, I realize he seems to be far more driven and ahead mentally than plenty of “working” bred dogs his age. 

I think the assumptions about ASL’s around here could be generalized, however the way many talk is like every one is weak nerved with no drive and it’s an absolute. "


maybe , maybe not -- there is SO much more --- . 

I commend you for reading . You are into the 4th or 5th book -- that is "far more driven and ahead" of many people .
seriously.

There are several , myself included , on the forum that have 4 or 5 DECADES involvement with breeding , training and working this breed ,. sp assumptions aren't that , but experience and observations and a great deal of worry that we can pull out of a nose dive . The pilot has to be conscious though and help .

One way to test your canine pal and that is to join a club and participate , get evaluation, apply some of that book learning , all the time having fun.


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## Trix

Cliffson - not sure about an expert on the breed, but an expert on Schutzhund. See the post above yours. It references a great 3 page article by a member here. Do you think that member could write several hundred pages on the topic? Could anyone here? Possibly, but I think it’s safe to say she’s more knowledgeable than most. 

Steve Strom - thanks for the post and article. I’ve found a ton of great information through this site. I certainly don’t discount a lot of the good information I’ve seen here and a lot has been very helpful. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carmspack

"Do you think that member could write several hundred pages on the topic? Could anyone here? Possibly, but I think it’s safe to say she’s more knowledgeable than most. "

answer - yes ---


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## onyx'girl

Trix said:


> Cliffson - not sure about an expert on the breed, but an expert on Schutzhund. See the post above yours. It references a great 3 page article by a member here. Do you think that member could write several hundred pages on the topic? Could anyone here? Possibly, but I think it’s safe to say she’s more knowledgeable than most.
> 
> Steve Strom - thanks for the post and article. I’ve found a ton of great information through this site. I certainly don’t discount a lot of the good information I’ve seen here and a lot has been very helpful.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many knowledgeable people in the breed and in sport no longer contribute to this board. Reading past threads holds so many pieces of information, I am glad they are able to be linked for new members.

Carmen, Cliff, Lisa and Lee still generously share here....several hundred pages of experiences they have been through training in the sport is probably a drop in the bucket for each one.


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## Nigel

Sunsilver;8759602[B said:


> ]I got kicked off his FB page for pointing out the way the show lines were gaiting, with the front leg lifted high, in what some people call the 'Hitler salute'![/B] It is totally the result of unbalanced structure, as he points out in the above link, but no one in the SV show world wants to hear that.


My WL male and mix line female will both kick their front legs out a bit if their head is up during focused heeling. There's a couple Dutchies in my class who do this as well. Or maybe you are talking about something else alltogether?


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## Sunsilver

Nigel, that is a whole 'nuther story. It's because they are gaiting with their head in a near vertical position. Naturally, this causes the front end to lift. And actually, some people ENCOURAGE them to kick out the front legs, because they think it looks showy and cool. It has nothing to do with the dog's conformation.

Whole different thing from a GSD being gaited as fast as possible on a leash (see second photo I posted.) However, the reason behind it is similar. When the show line dog is gaiting, the curvature of the lumbar spine lowers the rear. The front end comes up to compensate and balance. Straining against the leash also causes the head and front end to lift.


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## Sunsilver

Going back to the start of this thread: Carmen (and others) what temperament/nerve problems came from the wolf blood in the Thuringian dogs?

To be more blunt about it, what is likely to happen to temperament if you breed to a wolf?
I'm talking about using the wolf as an outcross to improve things like structure, hardiness, size, etc. (And NO, I am NOT thinking it's a good idea!)


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## Shepdad

carmspack said:


> after posting this link --
> 
> https://www.louisdonald.com/problems...-response.html
> 
> Nigel said ---
> Louis appears to be more critical in this article vs what I've previously read. My basic take away is put your head in the sand for faults as long as you get that "type".
> 
> 
> LOL - I noticed that also --- LOL -- that was after he read the Linda Shaw book. So , there is hope ? Will people listen to this man who does love the breed?
> 
> the big problem is the powers that be rule and you either follow and belong or haven't a hope .
> 
> notice how ingrained the lacking and weak temperament is . That is the big problem . Big and not likely
> to change . You watch the videos of the show of shows which crown the Siegers and you are hit over the head with the truth of the inadequacy. You mention it and you are also hit over the head with those who deny and defend .


AI. AI is prohibited in Germany. I'm not sure about other GSD centers like Czech R. and Slovakia, or other outposts like Australia. 
But it is fine here in the U.S., not sure about Canada. 
I found this interesting: German Shepherd Breeders | Search and Rescue Dogs | Czech Border Patrol German Lines | DDR German Shepherds | Narcotic Dogs | Police Dogs | Protection Dogs | Family Dogs
Linebred 5,5,5 on Ingo R. who is usually in the 9th gen or so of most pups today. 
The sire is an LE that lived from 1990 to 2002 (German Shepherd Breeders | Search and Rescue Dogs | Czech Border Patrol German Lines | DDR German Shepherds | Narcotic Dogs | Police Dogs | Protection Dogs | Family Dogs), part of a succesful litter of multiple LEs, and the grand sire is another well known LE (German Shepherd Breeders | Search and Rescue Dogs | Czech Border Patrol German Lines | DDR German Shepherds | Narcotic Dogs | Police Dogs | Protection Dogs | Family Dogs) who was 3,-3 on Ingo and thus closer to the Rudingen and Haus Himpel dogs that go back to Burg Fasanental.
Perhaps Cliffson and Carmspack can say something about the lines and their views on AI.


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## Sunsilver

A.I. is permitted in Canada. It can be done using frozen semen or as a side-by-side breeding, with the female being used to 'tease' the male, and the semen being collected and used almost immediately. (The vet mixes it with an 'extender' that helps prolong the life of the sperm.)

Donner isn't on any databases on the net. However, his sire is on the PDB, and comes from DDR lines: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=351115-iwo-vom-rittersring

We've talked elsewhere this week about the DDR lines producing dogs that are capable of biting for real, rather than just out of prey drive.

Edit: spoke too soon - found Donner's pedigree: https://www.google.ca/search?q=Donn...sAQILQ&biw=1236&bih=611#imgrc=2RYV3aEl2tq2NM:


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## carmspack

Nigel said:


> My WL male and mix line female will both kick their front legs out a bit if their head is up during focused heeling. There's a couple Dutchies in my class who do this as well. Or maybe you are talking about something else alltogether?


as Sunsilver says - that's a whole 'nuther thing.

what you describe is the dog being taught to drop its rear --- this is like a dressage horse being taught movements which are eye-catching but not natural or functional over the long haul.

what Sunsilver describes is dogs who can't move in any other way because of conformation .
Shoulders that can't open, heads that can't drop, front legs that can't go into center , rears that can't propel the whole thing forward , backs that have no flex.


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## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> Going back to the start of this thread: Carmen (and others) what temperament/nerve problems came from the wolf blood in the Thuringian dogs?
> 
> To be more blunt about it, what is likely to happen to temperament if you breed to a wolf?
> I'm talking about using the wolf as an outcross to improve things like structure, hardiness, size, etc. (And NO, I am NOT thinking it's a good idea!)


well I won't go into the wolf discussion because when the canine genomic study was completed everyone was very surprised that the GSD belonged to a group with little , as in extremely little "wolf" --- border collie and malinois did / do belong to that group.

GSD belonged to the molosser genetic group ! Surprise.

what is to be gained --- the same thing von Stephanitz said in his book -- nothing -- and nothing good .

I happen to be good friends with one of the researchers of this and the human genomic study.

there are ongoing - personal explorations being done


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## carmspack

this is true to my studies and understanding and may very well be part of something that I wrote 
" Ingo and thus closer to the Rudingen and Haus Himpel dogs that go back to Burg Fasanental."

this is how my lines are built. 

as far as A-I . science has progressed to a point where A-I is the only option -- lol -- thinking about chilled semen held in sperm banks for prosperity .

in those cases there are no other ways. 

as far as A-I for current and living dogs who are used with such high frequency that they can not do live service , then the answer is no . 

this is a commercial venture and profit and commerce have been a ruin of the breed .


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## Sunsilver

Carmen, okay, there is very little, if any, wolf blood in the GSD. But you still haven't answered my question - what would this do to temperament?

I am trying to answer a niggling suspicion I have in my mind regarding a certain breeder's dogs. I think they did outcross to a wolf, and am wondering if that was to blame for what I've observed in these dogs. The cross happened quite a few generations back.


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## carmspack

Old 02-01-2012, 07:26 PM
carmspack
Crowned Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: ontario -
Posts: 13,109
Yes Anne. In the case of the Maineiche there is some craft as to the breeding program. Strong maternal lines coming in from Frei Gugge (maternal burg Fasanental - same as shared by DDR dogs (norbert - said to be among best herding dogs ever) and the Lierbergs (Wurtemberg and Swabian herding), herding through multiple use of Marko Cellerland who was well enough appreciated to be used by haus Knufken (herding) and by Kirschental (Nimi is one) Marko's son Kai Silberbrand to Gitta and Gundi Kirschental. Other Marko son used by Kirschental .
Also on the Maineiche - Racket - Pirol Kirschental .

I think it is good planning with goal in sight. Old style dogs with high social / active aggression with tremendous desire to work and easy trainability, good compliance, bright , repeat easy trainability. My experience through 4 generations now building on a theme - the latest through Cubby x Carmina Sitting Bull. Peaceful dogs with no apparent aggression - but strong and powerful in fight , every work done with great determination.
carmspack is online now Report Post


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## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> Carmen, okay, there is very little, if any, wolf blood in the GSD. But you still haven't answered my question - what would this do to temperament?
> 
> I am trying to answer a niggling suspicion I have in my mind regarding a certain breeder's dogs. I think they did outcross to a wolf, and am wondering if that was to blame for what I've observed in these dogs. The cross happened quite a few generations back.


send me the pedigree (PM)

wouldn't be difficult to determine via genome examination for markers

temperament would have elevated suspicion and avoidance -- but you can get that with poor breeding - poor socializing .

just look at the extremely shy 4 month old thread 

von Stephanitz wasn't a great breeder -- organizer , yes, force of nature director , yes.

Anton "So" Eiselen had warned him !


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## Sunsilver

That's exactly what I see in these dogs! Thank you.


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## Shepdad

Very interesting to look up what Dr. Raiser's group is doing https://www.rsv2000.de/en/index.html

To quote under Values and Philosophy, the definition of a working dog:
"Definition of the working dog

A utility dog is an efficient and skilled working dog. By virtue of its drive qualities and constitution this dog can be instructed and utilised to fulfil versatile tasks.

The utility dogconstitutes a value in itself. To preserve it and its genetic resources shall form part of the care of cultural value.

The working dog: Due to the dog’s innate behaviours and capacities people use it to support their own work. By doing so, people assume the right to put the dog at their disposal. From the beginning of domestication, this was the basic motive of humans to enter into symbiosis with the dog. This anthropocentric approach is favourable to the animal in such a way as it obtains the potentiality to act upon its drives and cognitive capacities.

Efficiency. A particular quality of the work is necessary to expose the efficiency of the utility dog. It is determined by physical and psychical components. To claim efficiency implies the development and examination of these capacities. These efforts are conducted within the limits of ethical animal protection.

Ability. The utility dog owns the required prerequisites to be instructed. These prerequisites are not necessarily to be exhausted. When using the dog as strictly a social and companion dog, it must be allowed to enjoy itself in addition to receive the necessary instruction.

The instinctive or drive qualities describe the psychical components of the constitution. They determine kind and development of the functions and reactions. The varied purposes of use of the utility dog require different drive qualities. The drive determinants of behaviour result from the fundamentals of preservation of the species: hunger, sexual drive, escape, aggression. Composition and degree of specification determine the purpose of use. Constitution. It is determined by components like drive qualities, anatomic overall structure, vitality, longevity, mobility, strength and endurance. They all have to match the respective utilisation.

Constitution. It is determined by components such as drive quality, anatomical structure, vitality, longevity, flexibility, strength and endurance. They must all correspond to the respective purpose of use.

By man. Having acquired the right to utilise the dog, people took over responsibility. We are obliged to breed, nourish and instruct the dog in order to enable the animal to fulfil the respective tasks within the context of ethical animal protection. Particular importance has to be attached to the preservation of genetic resources.

Different tasks. he variance spectrum of drive qualities and constitution effect the variety of applications people use according to their respective needs.

Trained. The utilisation of the utility dog requires its training. This training channels its natural drive behaviours into the desired conduct. Such a process is based on the ethological cognition as well as the cynological and empirical knowledge. Man’s right to influence the natural conduct of the dog in order to form and control it for determined purposes also implies compulsive acts. By doing so, commensurability has to be observed. Overcoming conflicts while being trained shapes the dog’s personality.

In addition to that, the training of utility dogs has relevance to breeding. It serves to select appropriate animals by carrying out defined examinations and make them available to breeders."

There are also profound statements in the following which people who have not trained in drive, in conflict and in stress, eg, most pet owners, might find difficult:
"In recent years, criteria have been hyped to validities that cause harm in relation to this philosophy. Although they require technical showpieces that like in circus ask for high demands on the adaptive and intellectual potential of the dog and his trainer, that's not all, what makes and selects a good working dog - it even distorts the selection.

The mode according to which a dog has to work joyfully corresponds to the naive spirit of a fun society, but is a contradiction in terms. For winning maximum performance is required - but peak performances are limit and never fun and joy, the latter coming after the success.
In other words: The term "joy in work" like used at the present time is misleading and has no place in working dog training when it comes to ethological and canine context. The today demanded technical perfection in the exercises requires the dogs in excellence on nervous limit.

Joy and Fun do not come until after Work

The fact is that the exercises described in the trial rules are never the drive aim of the dog, they primarily frustrate him in his drive behavior. To put it dramatically and clear: "The exercises are a punch in the face of the dog." Only by applying the laws of learning and ethological findings, the exchange transaction: "If you do what brings me the points, you get your drive aim" , the dog is to be brought to his work highly motivated and to perform with full commitment.

Drive Aim and Trial Rules are not identical

The basics in order to train the exercises are plan A and plan B (see Graph 2).
Confirmation is done by Plan C, because in a trial situation, there is no release to the drive aim. Therefore by playing the game "heaven versus ****" the dog needs to be taught about the game, that the total coordination with his handler represents the maximum of comfort. This is then enough intrinsic motivation for the dog, because then sufficient positive reinforcement through social interaction is given (Plan D)."


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## onyx'girl

Dr. Raiser recently judged the Schutzhund trainers challenge. I loved that he held commentary during routines, and stayed out of the dog/handler/helpers way during the exercises. He didn't need to be in the line of fire to read the dogs grips, or temperament. He could see it from afar. 
I hope the RSV2000 gains strength.


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## Shepdad

onyx'girl said:


> Dr. Raiser recently judged the Schutzhund trainers challenge. I loved that he held commentary during routines, and stayed out of the dog/handler/helpers way during the exercises. He didn't need to be in the line of fire to read the dogs grips, or temperament. He could see it from afar.
> I hope the RSV2000 gains strength.


Re the $25,000 challenge, per the organizers: "If you haven’t already guessed, the long term goal of all of this is to promote this sport to the public, attract corporate sponsors, and ultimately gain some type of television coverage. Basically, we want to see our dog sport receive the same attention and respect as other professional sports."

I'm not sure if this is ultimately going to create more problems than it solves when it comes to what's best for the breed and the dogs. Probably good for some high profile trainers but I could care less, I care more for the dogs. You know the saying "Money is the root.......". I think some dogs in the Iditarod were recently disqualified due to doping suspicions.


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## GSDguy4EVER

carmspack said:


> this thread has been idle for a long time .
> 
> too good for that !
> 
> here is an additional link
> 
> https://www.louisdonald.com/problems-in-the-german-shepherd-dog---a-response.html


Excellent discussion regarding the current trends in the conformation of the GSD breed within the Quanto/Canto lineage. It is clear the structural evolution of this lineage has deviated far from the ideal form. Maybe the SV leadership will realize that and work towards bringing these lines back towards the norm by promoting dogs with less extreme structure.


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## cliffson1

Maybe I’ll start another thread, but in answer to a question above. Wolves would introduce and did introduce in the Czech experiments high suspicion and shyness to humans in general. BUT, they also are genetically wired for high fight elements and good hip health. Wolves are not known for weak nerves!
I only bring this up to reflect that most assert shyness, which we sometimes see in this breed to weak nerves. It is so much more complicated than that basic premise. Shyness can come from environment, from specific puppy in litter, from genetics,( both long term breeding on genetically shy stock and short term breeding on good stock, I️t can come from breeding extremes, and I️t is inherently in the breed through aspects of the Thuringian dogs in the onset. Then you have the interactions of all these things to create the degrees and frequency of shyness in individual dogs and litters and breeding programs. 
Most people don’t even realize this, much less have an understanding of causation of the shyness .....but as Shepdad and Carmen wrote, there are probabilities that are fairly consistent when you really understand the breed, the type dogs that created the breed, what the breeding genetics of a dog is, and the interaction of the elements that contribute to shyness; in reflections on shyness in a given dog, line, or breeding program.


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## carmspack

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Excellent discussion regarding the current trends in the conformation of the GSD breed within the Quanto/Canto lineage. It is clear the structural evolution of this lineage has deviated far from the ideal form. Maybe the SV leadership will realize that and work towards bringing these lines back towards the norm by promoting dogs with less extreme structure.


nice thought - however I really really do not think so . 
it is much more than conformation that needs to be corrected .


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## Sunsilver

Cliff, going to PM you to explain the situation, as I am trying to understand it, but don't want to discuss the breed/breeder in public.


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## Sunsilver

carmspack said:


> nice thought - however I really really do not think so .
> it is much more than conformation that needs to be corrected .


Yeah, like the old boy's club and the hunger for money that made this all possible... :frown2:
Dr. Raiser was briefly president of the SV, but when he found out just how bad things were, and how much resistance there was to change, he either quit or was driven out. Not sure which, it was a number of years ago, and I wasn't paying much attention.


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## carmspack

he was driven out .

further to your questions on the wolfy-thing -- the animals your are asking about are NOT GSD 

that is an important detail.

they are relatively newish -- almost designer -- definitely bred for cosmetic or appearance appearing
to wolf like -- but there are many examples of this 

they appeal to vanity -- the "fireside wolf"

they were not , are not , bred for work

it is interesting but maybe best handled in a new thread 

this iceberg breeders is so handy as a reference to GSD genetics , discussing past history and possible futures that maybe it should be kept focused so that those new to the breed and wanting to learn don't get confused ?


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## Sunsilver

Yes, had no intention of discussing those dogs here. Just wanted to know how wolf blood would affect temperament of whatever dog it was crossed with.


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## cliffson1

I agree Carmen that wolf should be separate issue. I question if iceberg breeders is of much value to many in the breed today. The mindset of folks today on the breed is very similar to mindset that everyone that participates gets a trophy. ?
There are really no faults in the breed today, it just depends on what your priorities are and that justifies the breeding program. So, the breed will travel it’s merry way, and the standard will decrease in value as the mass appeal of breeding so everyone can own this breed will continue.?*♀


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> I agree Carmen that wolf should be separate issue. I question if iceberg breeders is of much value to many in the breed today. The mindset of folks today on the breed is very similar to mindset that everyone that participates gets a trophy. ��
> There are really no faults in the breed today, it just depends on what your priorities are and that justifies the breeding program. So, the breed will travel it’s merry way, and the standard will decrease in value as the mass appeal of breeding so everyone can own this breed will continue.��*♀



this is one of the saddest posts I have seen.....albeit so REAL! 

Have been going through this thread again after recommending it to quite a few people looking for puppies....and some wanting to get into IPO or other sports. So much to think about ....last year some posts I wish I had addressed.....the discussion about a book that was written 25 +/- years ago....so much has changed in training and breeding to accommodate the training - or vice versa! The comments about Maineiche breeding prior to the Fero era....those lines that Carmen and I both are carrying on into the future - but the sadness and frustration when so many in the breed do not understand the bottlenecks they are building in both bloodlines and type...the changes that are showing in not just the SL but the WL dogs....when I get told you only get one or 2 pups that can work in a litter from a WG WL breeder/judge....heck I had all 3 males and 1 female title in my K litter, and 2 others that worked but due to owners lifestyles and priorities, did not title.


I get into "discussions" all the time about a 'standard" - a blueprint of the ideal all breeders should strive to meet...and get so much hate from so many over it. The sadness I feel watching ASL dogs - the rabid mob mentality of the ASL crowd when even a small comment is made on a photo....even down to the much revered handler/judge reigning over the breed jumping on a bandwagon and verbally abusing a person with a contrary opinion. 

I think this thread has much for so many to think about. Why we are drawn to the breed, what we want in our dogs and if that meets what the standard describes. The stand is the ideal, we have to strive to attain that ideal....but so may are narrowing their focus - for prey, for ball drive...for color, for heads....I had 2 dogs from different litters and lines working in a group - many LE K9 officers there - they all said dog A is a super sport dog...he will do great, but dog B?? That is not a schutzhund dog, that is a police dog....they all offered to sell him to another department for me....Dog A did do great - competed on a national level sucessfully, Dog B - well life again kept him from attaining his true potential. Yes - titled, koered, impressing all who actually SEE him....producing well with progeny in sport and LE...such an opportunity for breeders to bring in what all say is missing...maybe in other hands he would have been high profile - those who see him know what he is ....so much to offer...

What saddens me is not only the mass production by greedy people with no knowledge, but the commercial breeders making a living by producing 6, 8 and more litters a year who still appear and present their breedings as more than pet breedings....when in reality, 90% of their pups will never be able to be more than companion dogs....but - that is the market...for not only the big black and red dogs and the "rare" colors and atrocities, but now, so many want and breeders cashing in on big pretty black sable dogs.... 

Lee


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## cliffson1

It’s why I post so infrequently, the new normal has new experts, selling a different concept!


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## cvamoca

I week or two ago, not sure what thread it was, I remember SabisMom (I think) mentioning a few threads including one on "Iceberg breeders" , so I'm posting it to bookmark it. If you want to get into some long but good conversation about the breeding in general, faults, etc. and all things in between, good thread to read. If not, I've bumped it so I can find it later.


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## Sabis mom

cvamoca said:


> I week or two ago, not sure what thread it was, I remember SabisMom (I think) mentioning a few threads including one on "Iceberg breeders" , so I'm posting it to bookmark it. If you want to get into some long but good conversation about the breeding in general, faults, etc. and all things in between, good thread to read. If not, I've bumped it so I can find it later.


It was not me, but this is a great thread with information that should be shared and studied. Thanks for bringing it up again.


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## Sunsilver

I have many quotes from this thread copied and bookmarked for reference!


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## Nigel

cvamoca said:


> I week or two ago, not sure what thread it was, I remember SabisMom (I think) mentioning a few threads including one on "Iceberg breeders" , so I'm posting it to bookmark it. If you want to get into some long but good conversation about the breeding in general, faults, etc. and all things in between, good thread to read. If not, I've bumped it so I can find it later.


Go check the "stickies" in the "Breed Standard" section, Prey monkeys and The fat lady has begun to.... Are both a good read.


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