# Teaching down



## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

How do I train my dog to respond to a “down” command without having to use a treat to lure him into position? As soon as I start lowering the treat to get him into the correct down position he complies immediately.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Is there a reason you don't want to lure him? Or are you asking how to progress to not needing the lure?


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

I’m asking how to progress without needing the lure.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Luring with treats is for puppies. With an older dog, just stop luring or asking and start expecting/commanding...treating for compliance is fine. But your dog only learns what you teach him. If you've only had him lay down by luring him with treats, he'd be a fool not to hold out for that LOL!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The general idea is command before lure so he downs ahead of the lure, then you can fade it. Don't rush to it though. I like to do a lot of reps with only the lure at a quick pace and moving around, not being static. At some point he'll start going into downs on his own, offering it. That's when I add the command. The best visual on it, or technique I like the best is Ivan's treat chasing. Personally I think its fine with a dog or puppy. That's one of the benefits of motivation training, you can start it and do things over a lot.


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Luring with treats is for puppies. With an older dog, just stop luring or asking and start expecting/commanding...treating for compliance is fine. But your dog only learns what you teach him. If you've only had him lay down by luring him with treats, he'd be a fool not to hold out for that LOL!


I think you should rephrase that: Luring with treats is when you start teaching a command, be it a puppy or older dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Evohog said:


> I think you should rephrase that: Luring with treats is when you start teaching a command, be it a puppy or older dog.


Okay, I suppose that's true... No harm in a little luring with an older dog who is learning a new command. But I personally wouldn't use that approach beyond the first time or two, and then would switch to rewarding compliance. With a puppy they're learning body awareness and control and communication all at once, so luring, even without commands, is a great way to help them master those things. And that's why I said that the way I did, to me luring is more of a repetitive body awareness and control learning via muscle memory kind of thing...and with a small puppy I like to continue that for a much longer timeframe, before introducing a command word for that action. But even then once the puppy has shown he understands, I stop the luring pretty quickly, and switch to rewarding compliance...


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

https://www.davekroyer.com/videos/free-video-friday-adding-your-cue-to-a-behavior


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Okay, I suppose that's true... No harm in a little luring with an older dog who is learning a new command. But I personally wouldn't use that approach beyond the first time or two, and then would switch to rewarding compliance. With a puppy they're learning body awareness and control and communication all at once, so luring, even without commands, is a great way to help them master those things. And that's why I said that the way I did, to me luring is more of a repetitive body awareness and control learning via muscle memory kind of thing...and with a small puppy I like to continue that for a much longer timeframe, before introducing a command word for that action. But even then once the puppy has shown he understands, I stop the luring pretty quickly, and switch to rewarding compliance...


I disagree.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It can take hundreds of repetitions over a period of time to teach and reinforce a task so it’s proofed.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> It can take hundreds of repetitions over a period of time to teach and reinforce a task so it’s proofed.


Proofing was not the question...so I'm confused. The OP asked about when to phase out luring for a 3 yr old dog learning to lay down. I have not yet met a dog that requires more than a few repetitions to make the connection between the command and the action...from that point forward, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure with a treat rather than rewarding the action?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Proofing was not the question...so I'm confused. The OP asked about when to phase out luring for a 3 yr old dog learning to lay down. I have not yet met a dog that requires more than a few repetitions to make the connection between the command and the action...from that point forward, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure with a treat rather than rewarding the action?


That's quite impressive. You must be an expert.
A few repetitions, you can teach a verbal command?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> That's quite impressive. You must be an expert.
> A few repetitions, you can teach a verbal command?


Again, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure once the dog has made the connection?


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## AkariKuragi (Dec 19, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> Again, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure once the dog has made the connection?


Teaching proper form for one. Luring allows you to get them into exactly the position you want them to be without having to physically manipulate them. It's less stressful for the dog and a more positive overall experience. If that's not how you like to do your training then, of course, you do you, but there are quite a few people who find luring to be useful even after the dog picks up the basic mechanics of the command.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Again, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure once the dog has made the connection?


Fun. There's times it just helps keep some things motivated and sharp.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> Proofing was not the question...so I'm confused. The OP asked about when to phase out luring for a 3 yr old dog learning to lay down. I have not yet met a dog that requires more than a few repetitions to make the connection between the command and the action...from that point forward, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure with a treat rather than rewarding the action?



There is also a lot to be said for building a solid foundation, which requires more than a few reps, in my experience. But each dog is different and everyone's expectations for their dog are different.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Proofing was not the question...so I'm confused. The OP asked about when to phase out luring for a 3 yr old dog learning to lay down. I have not yet met a dog that requires more than a few repetitions to make the connection between the command and the action...from that point forward, what would be the benefit of continuing to lure with a treat rather than rewarding the action?


I think you and I are talking about two different things. My youngest dog is 2. As a puppy, I used a lure technique to teach sit and down. He learned to follow the lure right away. A treat over the head made him sit. A treat or even just a closed hand on the floor moving away from him made him lie down. But he did not associate the words Sit or Down with the request until we had done it many times over a time period. He learned Sit faster than Down, but I also reinforced it a lot more. 

I also think it’s confusing to someone new to shepherds to tell them their dog can learn something after one or two tries. It works for you, great! With my high drive dog, who is crazy smart, I needed more time to get to where I needed him to be. If someone reads your post, tries it one or two times and thinks the dog can be weaned from lures, what happens if it doesn’t work?


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

I'm late to the party and didn't ready anything anyone wrote

My pup is 7mos and I still lure her. However, the lure has a pointing gesture too, so I hope she's catching on to that

Sometimes I can make her lay down without treats and then praise, but it's not often

One thing I do is watch her. Just as she starts to sit, I say "Sit!" and obviously she's in the process of sitting and when she does, I praise. I do the same thing with "lay down"

I like to do doggie push ups. You do some reps of "sit" and "down." I know my pup has still not got a hold of "sit" from a down. She'd rather stay down, so we're working on that


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> I think you and I are talking about two different things. My youngest dog is 2. As a puppy, I used a lure technique to teach sit and down. He learned to follow the lure right away. A treat over the head made him sit. A treat or even just a closed hand on the floor moving away from him made him lie down. But he did not associate the words Sit or Down with the request until we had done it many times over a time period. He learned Sit faster than Down, but I also reinforced it a lot more.
> 
> I also think it’s confusing to someone new to shepherds to tell them their dog can learn something after one or two tries. It works for you, great! With my high drive dog, who is crazy smart, I needed more time to get to where I needed him to be. If someone reads your post, tries it one or two times and thinks the dog can be weaned from lures, what happens if it doesn’t work?


If you watch the video posted previously by @Bramble you'll see Dave Kroyer, very much an expert trainer, demonstrating exactly what I've been saying. Even with a puppy he switches from luring to rewarding the action in a single session once the command is understood. What @AkariKuragi pointed out is important, by all means use any tool or trick you have available to you to achieve a goal, in the example given to improve position or form. 

But getting back to the OP's situation, their 3 yr old dog will down immediately when lured, but clearly hasn't made the connection command=response=consequence. Instead it would seem that the dog has connected the luring motion with the action and reward. IMHO this problem stems from relying too heavily on luring; the dog has learned exactly what he's been taught, though not what the owner expected! A quick and seamless transition from luring to rewarding the target behavior avoids this problem. 

That being said, we all have to work the dog in front of us! If you find that the connection with the command is not as solid as you thought in a previous session, there's no reason not to use luring again briefly to help solidify that connection. That, however, was not the issue originally posted in this thread...the question was how to get the dog to down without the lure.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

Thanks all for the responses! We were out and about this weekend getting some training in when unfortunately an off lead golden doodle ran over and caused a dog fight  I am devastated. I feel like this is such a set back when he was doing so well with all of his training.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sorry to hear this, I hope your dog is okay!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

What is it with these doodle dogs? We had one come at Zoe and I on Thursday. Luckily in our case it had second thoughts and ran wide circles around us until it owner could retrieve it. 

Easier said than done, but it's best to let this go and move forward as far as training is concerned. Our dogs can work past stuff like as long as we do as well.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

My dog is okay I fell breaking up the fight and my ankle is swollen, possibly sprained. The other dog was just a loose dog running through the park I hope animal control is able to catch him and find out who owns him.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

I’m wondering if I should bring him to a tractor supply or something similar tommorow to see how he will react around other dogs going forward.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> If you watch the video posted previously by @Bramble you'll see Dave Kroyer, very much an expert trainer, demonstrating exactly what I've been saying. Even with a puppy he switches from luring to rewarding the action in a single session once the command is understood. What @AkariKuragi pointed out is important, by all means use any tool or trick you have available to you to achieve a goal, in the example given to improve position or form.
> 
> But getting back to the OP's situation, their 3 yr old dog will down immediately when lured, but clearly hasn't made the connection command=response=consequence. Instead it would seem that the dog has connected the luring motion with the action and reward. IMHO this problem stems from relying too heavily on luring; the dog has learned exactly what he's been taught, though not what the owner expected! A quick and seamless transition from luring to rewarding the target behavior avoids this problem.
> 
> That being said, we all have to work the dog in front of us! If you find that the connection with the command is not as solid as you thought in a previous session, there's no reason not to use luring again briefly to help solidify that connection. That, however, was not the issue originally posted in this thread...the question was how to get the dog to down without the lure.


No, not exactly Tim. He showed the mechanics of adding a command, but nothing about how long or how many of any of the pieces. He didn't say don't ever lure again either. He did manage to pointy head up what I said though, thats always pretty impressive.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Mikki94 said:


> I’m wondering if I should bring him to a tractor supply or something similar tommorow to see how he will react around other dogs going forward.


I'd give him and you a couple days to forget about the indecent vs. dropping him in the deep end just to see if he can swim. Also don't go into a situation with a dog without a plan about what you will do if he reacts. Trying to decide in the moment means you are already too late in making a decision.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> No, not exactly Tim. He showed the mechanics of adding a command, but nothing about how long or how many of any of the pieces. He didn't say don't ever lure again either. He did manage to pointy head up what I said though, thats always pretty impressive.


At approximately the 6:35 mark, when Dave feels the connection has been made between the command and the action, in that single session he ends luring and rewards - and therefore reinforces - the behavior he's after. Did I miss something?

I'm fine being wrong. I was trying to be helpful, not right...if continuing to use luring beyond that point is working for you or others, by all means continue! But again, the OP's question was how do I get my dog to down without luring, since he'll only down currently with the lure...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> At approximately the 6:35 mark, when Dave feels the connection has been made between the command and the action, in that single session he ends luring and rewards - and therefore reinforces - the behavior he's after. Did I miss something?
> 
> I'm fine being wrong. I was trying to be helpful, not right...if continuing to use luring beyond that point is working for you or others, by all means continue! But again, the OP's question was how do I get my dog to down without luring, since he'll only down currently with the lure...


Maybe I'm reading you too literally. I'm saying you wouldn't go out and do it all in just one session, you may lure for a week, 3 days, any amount of time to get to that sharp offering of the down, its not going to be a single session and you may step back here and there. 

And he's actually using a little different technique then what I said. He's applying the command to a completed behavior. Technically, the luring is still going on with his body language and the placement of his hands with the treat in it. But that should all be helpful to the op, because fading the lure is what she was missing, not trying to just eliminate it right now.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mikki94 said:


> Thanks all for the responses! We were out and about this weekend getting some training in when unfortunately an off lead golden doodle ran over and caused a dog fight  I am devastated. I feel like this is such a set back when he was doing so well with all of his training.


Generally, the more you treat it like no big deal, the less a big deal it'll be. Don't let it effect how you act when you walk him, and he'll probably forget it.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lol. We have many golden doodles and wheaten terriers around here. With these owners having electric fences and their dogs go bonkers as we would go by. It had been great for proofing though even though I still hate electric fences -the first few times it really woke up my Adrenalin. 

I have heard it’s takes I think two weeks to reset a dog after he reacts to a dog or has a bad incident with a dog- keeping the dogs away from other dogs. It may reset both the owner and the dog. I do not much know about this theory but I have had no issues with it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe I'm reading you too literally. I'm saying you wouldn't go out and do it all in just one session, you may lure for a week, 3 days, any amount of time to get to that sharp offering of the down, its not going to be a single session and you may step back here and there.
> 
> And he's actually using a little different technique then what I said. He's applying the command to a completed behavior. Technically, the luring is still going on with his body language and the placement of his hands with the treat in it. But that should all be helpful to the op, because fading the lure is what she was missing, not trying to just eliminate it right now.


I'm always willing to earn something new Steve! Can you explain how the body language and hand placement can be considered luring toward the end of that video? Wouldn't that mean all training is luring?

Also, why continuing to use treats and lure after the dog makes the connection between the action and the command is advisable? Is it for motivational reasons?
And are you saying you train adult dogs the same as you would a puppy, or are you referring to a puppy when you say this?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm always willing to earn something new Steve! Can you explain how the body language and hand placement can be considered luring toward the end of that video? Wouldn't that mean all training is luring?
> 
> Also, why continuing to use treats and lure after the dog makes the connection between the action and the command is advisable? Is it for motivational reasons?
> And are you saying you train adult dogs the same as you would a puppy, or are you referring to a puppy when you say this?


She's still basically following the food throughout the whole video. Its being faded to a point, but did you see the spin? A little reminder for her and little fun movement to break things up. If you wanted to start a puppy like this, an older dog, or even retrain something the dog doesn't do very well, there's never anything wrong with trying this.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> She's still basically following the food throughout the whole video. Its being faded to a point, but did you see the spin? A little reminder for her and little fun movement to break things up. If you wanted to start a puppy like this, an older dog, or even retrain something the dog doesn't do very well, there's never anything wrong with trying this.


I did notice the spin Dave threw in there, and it definitely made me smile - the mark of a good trainer eh, break it up, keep it fun, and keep the pup engaged!

But saying there's nothing wrong with prolonged luring is not at all the same as explaining "why" you seem so opposed to not using that method. I've trained literally hundreds of puppies and dogs without prolonged luring to accomplish that. If the fun stops when luring stops, that's a completely different problem...but there's no reason to assume that!

So the motivation for me asking the question was to learn more about the philosophy behind using that technique - especially with an older dog. 

To explain further, in my *perhaps antiquated* view the goal is to teach the dog to respond correctly to the command. So the sooner one can switch to rewarding the desired behavior the better - it keeps things clearer IMO. Of course, the switch should not be rushed based on the dog you're working with. But again, I was not overstating reality when I said I have yet to meet a dog that can't learn the connection between the action and the command in a single session or afternoon - providing one uses an appropriate high-value reward! Obviously this is then followed by hundreds or thousands of repititions to solidify and proof in various settings...

But I can also see where using a lure to elicit a desired behavior for longer than it takes the dog to connect the action with the command could cause confusion for the dog, and could easily lead to the problem the OP is having! The dog knows how to lay down, but is focused on the movement of the lure, not the trainer. So although he may have tentatively made the connection to the command previously, he's been consistently rewarded for following the lure instead! 

I can understand how some might guess that the problem stems from not doing enough repititions with the lure and command paired together...and, while doubtful IMO, it is possible. That being said, again using an appropriate high-value treat it should not be too difficult to get the dog to down using a little persistence by simply withholding the treat until the dog offers the desired behavior... To me this seems like rectifying a self-induced problem caused by the over use of luring, more than it does a problem with the dog's lack of understanding...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

All I'm saying is when you do that type of luring, you fade it like he's doing in the video.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I did notice the spin Dave threw in there, and it definitely made me smile - the mark of a good trainer eh, break it up, keep it fun, and keep the pup engaged!
> 
> But saying there's nothing wrong with prolonged luring is not at all the same as explaining "why" you seem so opposed to not using that method. * I've trained literally hundreds of puppies and dogs without prolonged luring to accomplish that. If the fun stops when luring stops, that's a completely different problem...but there's no reason to assume that!*
> 
> ...


How did it come to be that you trained so many puppies? What breeds? 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8877274-post3.html
Or how to teach a puppy to bark?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> tim_s_adams said:
> 
> 
> > I did notice the spin Dave threw in there, and it definitely made me smile - the mark of a good trainer eh, break it up, keep it fun, and keep the pup engaged!
> ...


It isn't too hard. Since that post linked there have been approximately 53 days. So 4 dogs and or puppies per day equals hundreds. And with the quick fade of the Lure and solidification of the command it makes sense. I just hope Tim s adams is charging by the dog not the hour. LOL.
Apples to apples. I have trained with guys as I am sure a lot of you also have, who believe that you give no treats. Just a command. Then make the dog comply. The reward is that there is no pain. Oh and an atta boy.
The reality is that how quickly or slowly a lure is faded should depend 100% on the dog and not personal beliefs. Training dogs is not an assembly line where every one is the same. Listen to your dog. When it's ready to progress then progress.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> Apples to apples. I have trained with guys as I am sure a lot of you also have, who believe that you give no treats. Just a command. Then make the dog comply. The reward is that there is no pain. Oh and an atta boy


Snarky comments aside, I would hope anyone reading this thread realizes that there is a HUGE spectrum of training techniques between luring, in particular prolonged luring, and the compulsion mentioned above. Using treats to reinforce training, and Luring with a treat, are 2 very different things. Compulsion of any kind, including prong and e-collars, are not techniques I use or have ever used. Treats, on the other hand, is something I do use and highly recommend! 



cdwoodcox said:


> The reality is that how quickly or slowly a lure is faded should depend 100% on the dog and not personal beliefs. Training dogs is not an assembly line where every one is the same. Listen to your dog. When it's ready to progress then progress.


Of course, the trainer plays a key role in reading the dog, no? How well do you read? Is that the same for every trainer or owner?

So, again an honest question, what do you see as the *goal* of luring? As I said previously, if there's a reason to continue beyond helping a dog make a connection between the action and the command, what is it? If you, or anyone else, can or would actually explain ** as in articulate the reasoning** this it might help less experienced owners with their training plan...just sayin.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would continue to lure and reinforce the behavior until I get a high degree of generalized compliance. It would be more important to me that the puppy, or dog, practices the correct behavior and is successful vs showing the puppy and relying on corrections or aversives to instill compliance.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I use luring all the time. I may use food to Lure my dog into a straight down on the track. I may use food to straighten out her heeling if she gets sideways, I can use food to Lure her back into the habit of nice straight sits or finishes, or Fronts. I can use a Lure either food or toy to move her back or forward in her heel. So even though she will perform the action on command I can tweak her performance. A trainer once told me that in IPO obedience. Food = precision. I use toys, tugs and balls to build speed, or power coming in. But food used as a Lure will get you precision.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> So, again an honest question, what do you see as the *goal* of luring? As I said previously, if there's a reason to continue beyond helping a dog make a connection between the action and the command, what is it? If you, or anyone else, can or would actually explain ** as in articulate the reasoning** this it might help less experienced owners with their training plan...just sayin.


First you have to stop focusing so narrowly on the dog being in a down. This type of luring has more then just that single goal. It teaches the dog to transition from the following to the ob without being dependent on your body positioning.Part of it is a capping, release exercise, its a process that you don't want to rush, even when parts seem to go quickly. Him stopping the way he does, the movement, all of it will play a part in maintaining attention and responding to verbal irregardless of your physical positioning. 

You wouldn't do it in one session just because the dog or pup is doing one piece.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would continue to lure and reinforce the behavior until I get a high degree of generalized compliance. It would be more important to me that the puppy, or dog, practices the correct behavior and is successful vs showing the puppy and relying on corrections or aversives to instill compliance.


Good point! But just to be clear, not relying on a Lure does not in any way suggest a correction of any kind! I was, and am, suggesting that if you watch closely you can see when the dog understands action=reward. If you continue LURING beyond that point, the opportunity is lost IME...or at least postponed unnecessarily. Again, just my opinion, as a pet owner...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good point! But just to be clear, not relying on a Lure does not in any way suggest a correction of any kind! I was, and am, suggesting that if you watch closely you can see when the dog understands action=reward. If you continue LURING beyond that point, the opportunity is lost IME...or at least postponed unnecessarily. Again, just my opinion, as a pet owner...


Opportunity is lost for what?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Opportunity is lost for what?


In my mind the opportunity for connecting, in the dog's mind, the command=action=reward sequence. Instead, you're now rewarding the dog for following the hand movement involved in luring. IMHO that's wrong...but again, just my opinion based on observation. There is no right way to teach a dog anything..just opinions and experience teach some tricks...if something is working for you and it's not harming the dog, go for it! But if you're having some issues, look around, there's a HUGE spectrum of training methodologies that all work for the people using them. The main point is, is your approach working for your dog?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> In my mind the opportunity for connecting, in the dog's mind, the command=action=reward sequence. Instead, you're now rewarding the dog for following the hand movement involved in luring. IMHO that's wrong...but again, just my opinion based on observation. There is no right way to teach a dog anything..just opinions and experience teach some tricks...if something is working for you and it's not harming the dog, go for it! But if you're having some issues, look around, there's a HUGE spectrum of training methodologies that all work for the people using them. The main point is, is your approach working for your dog?


When you lure, over time you make the hand movement smaller until you have taught the dog a hand signal as the antecedent to the behavior. Signal = action = reward sequence. Later you can build on that by adding a verbal cue.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> How did it come to be that you trained so many puppies? What breeds?
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8877274-post3.html
> Or how to teach a puppy to bark?


Got me didn't ya? Good job...if it were an honest question...i'd answer, but i'm comfortable letting the masses sort it out....are you? 

All the best big guy....


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When you lure, over time you make the hand movement smaller until you have taught the dog a hand signal as the antecedent to the behavior. Signal = action = reward sequence. Later you can build on that by adding a verbal cue.


Why is it so advantageous to not make the dog/puppy think? Why is it somehow synonymous that if I don't lure my puppy i'm beating him/her...as if those were the only options LOL!


Honestly, I'm very disappointed in this forum
...theres a whole spectrum of training techniques that can be employed as we all know.... But hey, if heckling trips your trigger, it's all good!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Why is it so advantageous to not make the dog/puppy think? Why is it somehow synonymous that if I don't lure my puppy i'm beating him/her...as if those were the only options LOL!
> 
> 
> Honestly, I'm very disappointed in this forum
> ...theres a whole spectrum of training techniques that can be employed as we all know.... But hey, if heckling trips your trigger, it's all good!


You asked questions regarding luring and I gave you honest answers. I am not sure why you feel that you are being heckled because of it.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Maybe it's sumppump or something similar....but yeah probably just me...


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I think for normal pet obedience it’s probably very common to fade the lure more quickly than you would for sport or competition obedience. Normal pet obedience doesn’t need to be flashy, or fast, or in drive. You can use luring to build muscle memory in your dog for a specific picture. So the action, including the desired body positioning, becomes second nature. It’s actually more advantageous to a handler training for sport to continue to lure and build muscle memory for what you want to see in trial than it is to create an immediate word association. It’s much easier to start to add a verbal command once the behavior is ingrained than to worry about teaching correct body positioning and speed of action AND a command.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

As with so many threads here this one evolved into not being about the OPs issue but simply about another members opinion being wrong ......... **rest removed by ADMIN. Keep things neutral and not personal**. I'm reminded of.. OMG...should I say it...POLITICS....It's never about my own ideas......just that my opponents ideas are a joke....that's also true in this faceless/ gutless world that is today's social media...further IMO many here would be 100% lost...if they couldn't find "their opinion" in some online "study"......a dog training book ....OR....this is the most important one... a "video" by whoever the latest dog training "GOD" currently is!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I don't see this as anything but someone who can't see past their own training method.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Shanes' Dad said:


> As with so many threads here this one evolved into not being about the OPs issue but simply about another members opinion being wrong .............**rest removed by ADMIN. Keep things neutral and not personal**. I'm reminded of.. OMG...should I say it...POLITICS....It's never about my own ideas......just that my opponents ideas are a joke....that's also true in this faceless/ gutless world that is today's social media...further IMO many here would be 100% lost...if they couldn't find "their opinion" in some online "study"......a dog training book ....OR....this is the most important one... a "video" by whoever the latest dog training "GOD" currently is!


I admit I like videos, but I'm not much for studies. I've never even heard or seen the word antecedent before that video, but if you freeze it at 4:23 you can read on line 2 of his board "Luring or Body Help" With this style of luring, and different people will have slight variations, but the body help isn't separate from luring , its more like a part of it and its faded over time. Its not a matter of making the dog dependent on a physical lure with your hand. He makes it look easy, and for the most part it isn't difficult, but there's more going on then just teaching the down.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Reading this for the first time and it appears that people are really saying the same thing in different ways.

My steps to training, regardless of the dogs age, is
1. Lure with food and body help.
2. When dog starts offering the action, add the command.
3. Fade out lure while using the command and use good or toy as reward.
4. Repeat as necessary.

If my dog starts blowing a command because it's a new place or off day, I'll add the lures back in to help.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

so I read most of this thread and now I'm even more confused because of the lure vs no lure debates LOL.

I spent about 10-20 minutes and went through some kibbles to bring the dog into down position. When he was going down to retrieve the food, I would give him the down command. He got the position down to get the kibble, but without the kibble (treat) he won't go down. He just looks at my hand to see if I got something in it for him to go down to eat....

I mean, how much food/treat I gotta give this guy before I can take the food away to do it without food and just praise? jeez lol


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

razorseal said:


> I mean, how much food/treat I gotta give this guy before I can take the food away to do it without food and just praise? jeez lol


Are you expecting to go straight from luring with food in your hand to verbally cuing a down and rewarding with praise, and no interim steps? I lure with food only as long as I need to, then I get the food out of that hand and reward from my other hand. Sometimes that's after several brief training sessions, sometimes it's within the first training session. I don't expect immediate compliance necessarily the first time I use the lure motion with an empty hand, I just wait for the dog to figure it out. But at this point I'm still not using a verbal command. Only when the dog will drop into a down with the lure motion even without food in my hand do I start adding a verbal cue. And I'm still marking and rewarding for quite awhile after that. 

The lure motion with an empty hand will eventually become my hand signal for that command, generally faded to something more subtle. For "down", I might start with my hand going all the way to the floor (and with a puppy I'm sitting on the floor with it while training), and fade to where I can simply point to the floor with one finger while I'm standing. 

In Halo's Puppy 2 class we had to demonstrate that our dog could do sit, stand, and down both with verbal cues and no hand signals, and hand signals with no verbal cues. I remember Cassidy picking up the hand signal for "down" before the she understood the word, and the opposite with "sit" - she knew the word before the hand signal. When your dog knows one but not the other, you would use the one they don't know, wait a second, then cue with what they do know. For example, with Cassidy I would use the hand signal for sit, wait a beat, then say "sit", mark and reward. The hand signal becomes a predictor for the word, which she knows, and is then associated with the behavior. For "down" I did the exact opposite - I said the word, waited a beat, then cued with the hand signal.


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## Mame (Mar 13, 2018)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ...I get the food out of that hand and reward from my other hand.


This one never occurred to me. Thanks for the tip!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mame said:


> This one never occurred to me. Thanks for the tip!


For some things I'll lure with food longer, but generally, people use food in the hand too long for simple behaviors, then wonder why their dog won't do anything unless they see the food. But I'm never quick to fade out the reward.

There are several schools of thought about having food on your person - some people prefer to have it nearby instead, so the dog learns that even though they can't see the food, a reward may still be forthcoming. I do the opposite, when I bring home a new puppy I wear my treat bag all the time. They learn that just because they CAN see food on me, that doesn't mean they're going to get any. They become desensitized to the presence of the treat bag.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Are you expecting to go straight from luring with food in your hand to verbally cuing a down and rewarding with praise, and no interim steps?


I suppose? I did it for about 10-20 mins with food, and then took the food away and just brought my hand down as if there was food. Once he figured out I had no food in my hand, he wasn't willing to do it.



Cassidy's Mom said:


> For some things I'll lure with food longer, but generally, people use food in the hand too long for simple behaviors, then wonder why their dog won't do anything unless they see the food. But I'm never quick to fade out the reward.
> 
> There are several schools of thought about having food on your person - some people prefer to have it nearby instead, so the dog learns that even though they can't see the food, a reward may still be forthcoming. I do the opposite, when I bring home a new puppy I wear my treat bag all the time. They learn that just because they CAN see food on me, that doesn't mean they're going to get any. They become desensitized to the presence of the treat bag.


and what do you give for treats? Just his daily kibble intake? or do you have a special treat for this. I was recommended by someone to not feed him as much in the mornings, so when you do a training session later in the day, they will be more eager to train to get the food. Thoughts?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

razorseal said:


> I suppose? I did it for about 10-20 mins with food, and then took the food away and just brought my hand down as if there was food. Once he figured out I had no food in my hand, he wasn't willing to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> and what do you give for treats? Just his daily kibble intake? or do you have a special treat for this. I was recommended by someone to not feed him as much in the mornings, so when you do a training session later in the day, they will be more eager to train to get the food. Thoughts?


Get a fanny pack (yeah you'll look like a dork or a grandma) and put all his kibble for the day into it. Work with him throughout the day, sit before going outside, treat for potty outside, treat for place when the cat runs by etc. if by the end of the day he has any kibble left that means you didn't work with your dog enough. I do this with puppies for several weeks, shaping their behavior. I didn't do anything special with taking away the treats, didn't even think about it actually. He still does all the behaviors 100% of the time, usually without me even saying the command. I still give him treats for being a good boy once in a while if I'm eating something too lol. A verbal "good boy" or a pat on the head seems to make him happy enough to keep behaving. Save the high value treats for the outside world, distracting walks, barking dogs, squirrels , etc. Balance is key.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

razorseal said:


> I suppose? I did it for about 10-20 mins with food, and then took the food away and just brought my hand down as if there was food. Once he figured out I had no food in my hand, he wasn't willing to do it.


How old is he, and how many training sessions have you worked on this? I would be wearing my treat bag, because I always have it on when I have a new puppy and we're doing lots of training. I try maybe a half dozen reps with food, maybe 10 or so, then hold a treat in the other hand held behind my back. I use the exact same motion, but no food. I'm sure my hand still smells like food, though. I mark and reward with the food I'm holding in my other hand behind my back when the puppy drops into a down. S/he may not do it immediately, I simply wait for them to figure it out. If I have to do a few more reps with food in the lure hand, I will, then I try again without. 



> and what do you give for treats? Just his daily kibble intake? or do you have a special treat for this. I was recommended by someone to not feed him as much in the mornings, so when you do a training session later in the day, they will be more eager to train to get the food. Thoughts?


Depends. In the morning I don't have a lot of time because I had to go to work. With Halo I was taking long lunch breaks so I could go home and work with her. She was still eating 3 meals a day, so I'd measure out her lunch kibble and toss it into my treat bag. For dinner, I'd do the same, and whatever we didn't use for training would go into the bowl afterwards. I don't withhold food when training, I just time my training sessions for before rather than after a meal. Sometimes I mix kibble with more interesting things, sometimes I don't use kibble at all. One of my current favorite treats is Real Meat Dog Food: https://www.chewy.com/real-meat-company-90-beef-grain-free/dp/110466

It's small, soft bites, mostly air dried meat. A two pound bag will last a LONG time, so it's not as expensive as it might seem. Some of the pieces are bigger than others, I just pinch off smaller pieces with my fingers as I go. Dogs love it and it does not require refrigeration.


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