# I'm so ticked of right now!!



## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Bubbles biting problem hasn't stopped no matter any method I've used. Sometimes when I have to get something dangerous out of her mouth. I offer a treat if she drops it. if she doesn't drop it I got to get it out of her mouth. When I try to get it out she growls snaps barks bites pins her ears back at me. this is how she acts even when she is trying to bite my hands. I have so many scars. instead of calling it quits on bubbles . I've taken her to training and made sure she was healthy. I'm not mad at the dog. 

The thing is I asked the vet at pet smart to see if she is having mental problems or having medical issues. I asked for blood work and to be evaluated mentally. Little to say they didn't do what I asked. They said to take her to training. ugh.. she is in training!. Then they said get an at home trainer. So I asked for a recommendation. they told me to look on the internet. I was very pissed by this. how could a vet not give me recommendations!!! I am willing to put the money and time into bubbles BC other then the biting she is very sweet especially with kids, and other animals. She only bites me . I'm sorry for complaining. I asked for help and good vet care for bubbles. Its not bubbles fault I'm trying so hard . I'm getting tired of trainers and vets not doing their jobs.  I'm tired of not getting the help me and bubbles desperately need. I can't ignore the biting and aggression just BC she is a puppy. I want to nip it in the butt now so it doesn't develop into anything worse. Arizona sucks on German Shepherd behaviorist trainers. I don't know if its worth going out of state for a good trainer.

rant over I'm so frustrated.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hmmmm. Maybe you can look up APDT (American Pet Dog Trainers). They should have a list of trainers with their proximity. I suggest them because they at least have to jump through a few hoops to be certified with the organization. 

I think I wouldn't go to a store to get vet-care for my dog. I have heard some nasty things from these vets. If I asked a vet to check something out on my dog, and they flatly refused, then I would probably seek another vet. 

However, puppy biting is pretty common, and your complaint is something that does sound more like a behavior problem then a physical problem, and if that is the case, then kudos to the vet for not taking the opportunity to run useless tests on your dog. 

If you are not following NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) with this pup, you might want to look that up as well. It is about leadership. Your puppy thinks that he can keep possession of something that you want, and if you adjust your leadership style so that he understands that you have a right to whatever is in his mouth, then this won't be a problem. I think that if you follow this, especially those points that are hardest for you to do, I think it will get better. This doesn't have to be forever, and it can be. 

Kudos to you for not waiting for the pup to be big and strong and scary enough that this is an emergency before addressing it. I hope some of the people who have landsharks will chime in.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

My two didn't go through a land shark phase because I didn't allow it. I know some don't agree with this but if my dogs tried to bite, they got their noses slapped.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If she only bites you, then you need a behaviourist to come into your home and evaluate you and how you interact with her. You are doing all the right things, yet there is still this issue between you and her. Doesn't sound like she needs an evaluation, more like you need an outsider's insight at the dynamics between you and Bubbles. 

I'd phone around to different vets or phone the local shelter and see if they can offer some recommendations. I don't think there is anything wrong with Bubbles, chances are you probably got caught in a repetitive behaviour pattern that inadvertently re-inforced Bubbles behaviour towards you (like the biting problem). Once those dynamics have been identified and understood, you can start working on changing them.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Nikitta said:


> My two didn't go through a land shark phase because I didn't allow it. I know some don't agree with this but if my dogs tried to bite, they got their noses slapped.


 
Heh! Heh!

How does your dog react today if you raise your hand to it, or better take a swing at it?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bubbles, I went through the same stage with WD. I was at my wits end. I had always been succesful in training the pups, mine and clients'. Then I found myself with this beautiful, cute monster that was getting the better of me. I have always used the positive techniques but with WD, that was not enough. When I saw him coming at me, little wolf cub at 12 weeks old, I grabbed him by the side of his neck, made him look at me and told him, "NO!". I knew that by around 16 weeks, things would get better as he was in the hierarchy stage. I wrote that 16 week marker in my planner and to the day it happened; gentle, never did it again. But it was a 24/7 job with constant training, exercise, places to go, crate time,etc. My hubby reminded me regularly ("What would you advice your clients?") Even though I knew all this stuff, with my own dogs I often have to step back and look at the issues. So I kept going and if you could only see him now: 10 months old and the dog I had in mind when I first met him as this tiny wolfy cub. After more than 20 years of working as a (pet dog) trainer WD was quite the experience. He also taught me that one method doesn't work for every dog. And you know what? There comes a time when you miss that little monster....
So hang in there and work through this crazy stage the and let us know what happens in a few weeks.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

My dog is the same age and def a land shark. Although getting better. And she never growls or shows signs of it being aggression. I would def look for a serious trainer. Ill see if I can find anything. What did you used to so when she bit? Has she been punished for it before? Does she have any negative associations with you grabbing her muzzle? 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

What about a local schutzhund club? They would know how to help you. 
http://www.gsdcsaz.org/
^gsd club

http://www.azdogsports.com/ourtrainers.html

http://executivek9services.com/train-with-us
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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Hope those help



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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

I had the same problem with Kaylee. I do not allow any biting and I did the usual everything stops the second her teeth touched human skin. I did all of the usual methods and nothing worked and I was frustrated as to why she kept it up. The dog knew this was unacceptable behavior yet she still did it. Time out, leave it, no, off, spray bottle in the face, holding her muzzle telling her no bite, redirecting her with chew toys. Also, ignoring the behavior which did not work and escalated to harder biting to get attention. Then not playing with her at all for a time which still did not work. Keeping her on a lead and making corrections also did not work. I did what our trainer told me to do and it did not work 100% the dog was still nipping and biting. The other GSD dogs we had were nothing like Kaylee. I talked with Lou Castle over the phone. Lou told me about this site, 

Rank Civ

Now after using the rank drive I have a 7 month old who no longer bites me. She still nips every now and then as puppies will do but this is nothing compared to what she was doing before which was constant. So now we are still working on our foundation before moving on to any more training and the rank drive made a HUGE difference. Maybe it might work for you too? Check the link and give it a shot.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

I used to have a biter .. I would roll his lips in between his teeth and whatever he was biting, then press his mouth shut until he winced.. for better or worse, it worked


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Thanks a lot you guys. I love bubbles very much she is very sweet when she wants to be. 

I've tried toys, spray bottles, puppy push ups and "alpha" methods. I grab her by the nose right now only when she is biting me or eating something she shouldn't . It is temporary until I find a trainer , vet or a method that works. I try not to hurt her I do it gently but she is so aggressive when I take stuff out of her mouth. She is aggressive even if I don't grab her nose . One time I picked her up to get her to drop something she bit my neck then my stomach.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Did you contact any of the 8 places I linked to in this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r-feeling-scared-overwhelmed.html#post2619393


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I've contacted some of them. I researched them I called and some didn't bother to contact me at all. I settled on AZdogsports BC they have a great reputation in training. Bubbles started biting me during a training session the trainers came over yelled no at her and she turned and bit the trainer. They said the biting issue was an issue that I needed to deal with on my own. Even though that's the reason why I asked for training from them. . 

I will contact some of the other trainers again but I'm a little more hesitant since the trainers and vets aren't addressing my issues. I'd really like a trainer and a vet to work together with me and bubbles. Sometimes I think bubbles has mood swings.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Get with a club....see if one of the members will help you. Those that know the breed are better able to help than the pet obedience types that may feel intimidated for whatever reason. 
Vets are too busy with the health side of animals to work on behavior/training, they can suggest who they endorse but I wouldn't expect a vet to help you with this. Your puppy isn't mentally unhealthy, just a normal puppy that needs to learn bite inhibition.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Slapping the nose, squirting, grabbing and pinching the lips, etc. will only make your dog worse and escalate behavior. 

Contact some of the people others have suggested if you are still having issues.

Puppies bite to _play_. If your two-yr. old (human) toddler was playing with her baby dolls and dressing them up, would you slap them on the face?
No. That's how they play.

Dogs unfortunately only have each other (siblings) and their teeth. That's pretty much it other than their paws to bat each other with (boring compared to biting!)

In order for change to occur, 1) puppy should have stayed w/mom and/or at the very least, siblings for at least 8 weeks. If not they missed out on critical information (biting HURTS) so 2) we must replicate what their siblings would do.

I should video the Doxie puppies we have playing, for an understanding of how to do that.
Basically, YELP, and turn and walk away.
Once you do this, do not let puppy chase and catch/bite you more. You ideally have a gate or something along those lines, to separate yourself from puppy. 

Don't put the puppy in a crate. They don't "get" the concept of "time out" but will "get" removing yourself from them if they bite too hard.
Replace yourself (your hand or pantleg) with a rope toy, or a stuffie. Puppies like to bite, and need to bite.

If you never let them bite you they'll never learn that biting hurts.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Did u see the links I posted? All are for german shepherd dogs and would have enough experience to help. I highly doubt she has a problem that the vet can help you with. You don't need meds, you need a good trainer that understands this breed. Maybe she's a bit on the dominant side? Maybe she's fearful or maybe she's just going through a bratty stage. Either way, it's something that needs to be seen in person by an experienced trainer. Hitting/ pinching/ closing the mouth is only going to escalate the problem. 


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

msvette . 

I just wonder how many times I need to tell you toys don't cut it with bubble. she doesn't just bite my hands. she bites my stomach, neck, nose anything she can get

what works for some doesn't always work for others.


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

One thing for sure your pup will grow out of this by four to five months of age maximum. In the mean time besides what was already said here train him so he learns your hand is something good..take his favorite treat and close it in your hand. Put your hand in front of his face and let him sniff at your hand. As soon as he starts licking your hand release the treat to him. Do this multiple times during the day. This won't cure his puppy biting over night but does teach him your hand is for something good when not bit.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Capone 22 I did contact executive k9 services. I got to wait until they call back Monday before I can talk with someone. I want her health checked just in case if she does have a problem health wise. If she is sick and I don't get it checked out trainings not going to help the underlying cause. I just want to be able to rule out medical issues first. 

I'm already working with azdogsports. I'm not to happy. they are nice but its not addressing the issues I told them about.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Bubbles...
This is all of the advice i can give you:
Choose a method and stick with it.

From the picture she looks young... you should stick with a method for a month in the least.
I yelp loudly and leave the room for a minute or two.. But make sure theres no toys out or you take them with you so she gets super bored.

She needs consistency.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Hitting/ pinching/ closing the mouth is only going to escalate the problem.


:thumbup:


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

m1953 said:


> One thing for sure your pup will grow out of this by four to five months of age maximum. In the mean time besides what was already said here train him so he learns your hand is something good..take his favorite treat and close it in your hand. Put your hand in front of his face and let him sniff at your hand. As soon as he starts licking your hand release the treat to him. Do this multiple times during the day. This won't cure his puppy biting over night but does teach him your hand is for something good when not bit.


She is 5 months old. I've tried treats and toys. I wish people would listen I was consistent with toys and treats until she learned if she bites she gets a toy. spray bottle helped until she became UN phased by the water.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> If she only bites you, then *you need a behaviourist to come into your home and evaluate you and how you interact with her. * You are doing all the right things, yet there is still this issue between you and her. Doesn't sound like she needs an evaluation, more like you need an outsider's insight at the dynamics between you and Bubbles.


Well then this is the only advice that will work, it seems.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So what toys are you using with her, I know she's in full blown teething and you can't tug, but she obviously needs to get her oral fix out. Do you give her raw knucklebones or nylabones to chew? Frozen wet towels may be more soothing to her sore gums.
I would also have her 'search/hunt' for her meals...lay it in a track or toss it in your yard to give her something to do(that is mental exercise even if it doesn't appear so)


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> She is 5 months old. I've tried treats and toys. I wish people would listen I was consistent with toys and treats until she learned if she bites she gets a toy. spray bottle helped until she became UN phased by the water.


First, I didn't know she was five months old already. 
Second people here are only trying to offer you advice that might be of help to you and your puppy, so please stop lecturing us and accusing us of not listening


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> She is 5 months old. I've tried treats and toys. I wish people would listen I was consistent with toys and treats until she learned if she bites she gets a toy. spray bottle helped until she became UN phased by the water.


redirecting doesn't really work in this scenario, imo. abandonment usually works pretty well (leaving / ignoring).
5 months old is nothing. there are people with dogs who are 2+ years that are still really mouthy little devils (even with training). 
but a lot of dogs are capable of learning/catching on before hand.

hows her exercise (both physically and mentally) look?


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> So what toys are you using with her, I know she's in full blown teething and you can't tug, but she obviously needs to get her oral fix out. Do you give her raw knucklebones or nylabones to chew? Frozen wet towels may be more soothing to her sore gums.
> I would also have her 'search/hunt' for her meals...lay it in a track or toss it in your yard to give her something to do(that is mental exercise even if it doesn't appear so)


I brush her teeth and massage her gums with a toothbrush which she loves the most next to ice cubes. She has a nylon, rawhide, butcher bones. She has ropes, balls, pig ears, frisbees, a toy tire. 

but I will try a cold rag/towel. I never thought of that.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

I would find a new trainer if s/he came over and yelled at my dog for something. That doesn't accomplish much. How does she do with other commands? Sit, down, stay ect.

My grandfather has trained a lot of german shepherds and regarding bite inhibition with puppies he would say that grabbing at them or flick their nose just means lets go! play harder! How does she do with other dogs playing? A lot of bite inhibition is learned through that. 


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## gsdw/me (May 17, 2011)

Look up Uschi Fuchs she could probably help you. She is in Arizona.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

To the OP ... are you feeling that no one understands how much of a problem this is for you? If that's true, that is reason enough to find a behaviorist to work with you. You may need someone to see and experience exactly what you are.

I hope this gets better for you.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> redirecting doesn't really work in this scenario, imo. abandonment usually works pretty well (leaving / ignoring).
> 5 months old is nothing. there are people with dogs who are 2+ years that are still really mouthy little devils (even with training).
> but a lot of dogs are capable of learning/catching on before hand.
> 
> hows her exercise (both physically and mentally) look?


I take her to the dog park to play Frisbee for an hour. Then I try to spend time with her at home until she bites me. then she needs a time out. When she stops crying I take her for a walk. She bites the leash and goes crazy pulling and biting on the leash . when I say no or let's go she bite my hands , ankles, and stomach. I have to grab her by the nose if she bites me BC she won't stop. Every block this happens once or twice if not more . So we only go around one block.

she is great with other dogs. she never growls, bites or barks at other dogs. she just Jumps on them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The timing of the redirection must be such so she's not being "rewarded" for biting.
The biting starts, you grab a toy, shove it in her mouth. That is not rewarding, that's redirecting.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Bubbles said:


> I want to nip it in the butt


That's the second time in a week someone has used this variation of "nip it in the bud" ... I just have to giggle because a human nipping a puppy in the butt is an amusing visual. 

And I agree with the others... find a behaviorist to come and work with you and the puppy one on one. I know how frustrating it can be... there were about three or four months where I couldn't even pet my own dog, lest I be caught in that snapping maw. It gets better! At five months of age, she's almost finished teething and should be on the downward slope of the mouthiness.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bubbles said:


> I take her to the dog park to play Frisbee for an hour. Then I try to spend time with her at home until she bites me. then she needs a time out. When she stops crying I take her for a walk. She bites the leash and goes crazy pulling and biting on the leash . when I say no or let's go she bite my hands , ankles, and stomach. I have to grab her by the nose if she bites me BC she won't stop. Every block this happens once or twice if not more . So we only go around one block.
> 
> she is great with other dogs. she never growls, bites or barks at other dogs. she just Jumps on them.


I don't read where you are actually engaging her, working WITH her....the activities you are doing are possibly overwhelming to her and she is having extinction bursts(tantrum) because her brain is ready to explode. 

Please read this link and maybe try to implement the suggestions into your daily routine. I bet you see a difference in a couple of days. Nothing in Life is Free


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Give her frozen raw marrow bones daily. The gnawing for long periods at a time may tire her jaw out and make biting to much work. Especially during the teething stage the frozen/coldness of the bone will help sooth her jaw/teeth. When she bites crate her. Start with 5 min intervals per bite. Yes it seems annoying to go in and out of the crate 10000x in less then 30 mins for biting but if thats what it takes so be it. Also keep a leash on her at all times this way when you see the "warning" signs that she is prepping to bite you can tug the leash and distract her attention bc of the leash tug. During the leash tug firmly and loudly say "NO" and walk away from here a distance. Then call her to do a command like sit, stay, down and then treat her so she sees a positive to something she had to work for. Also like someone else said make her work..Nothing in life is free. Work for food by lining it up and "tracking" yes she isnt trained in tracking but take one small room like the kitchen and lay her food out in lines and make her work. Get her more exercise outside, walking, hiking, playing fetch. A tired puppy can't bite. Find some big hills near your house and have her walk/run up and down a few times with you. You are in AZ take her swimming. Get her energy out so she can't be bothered to put her energy into biting you. Worse comes to worse you can buy a soft mesh muzzle and when she bites you put her in time out with a muzzle on. She won't like it at first but she will get used to wearing it. I have my female in a mesh muzzel when shes free in the yard right now to help keep her from eating the puppy poop from the pup we kept from her litter. Think outside the box with ways you can alternatively change her behavior until you can find a proper trainer. And I agree find a "real" vet not a pet store vet.

When she does bite you can act like a mommy dog or a litter mate by biting back with your hand on her neck and pinch her skin. Push her away by the neck/head and then tell her no. Good luck.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Bubbles said:


> msvette .
> 
> I just wonder how many times I need to tell you toys don't cut it with bubble. she doesn't just bite my hands. she bites my stomach, neck, nose anything she can get
> 
> what works for some doesn't always work for others.


bubbles - nothing works till one gives it a good try.

Wonder what makes you think that your puppy is unique? 

All puppies will bite(some more and harder than other) - as folks here have told you - puppies use their mouth like people use their hands including playing. They just need to learn "bite inhibiion" where they learn how hard they can bite when playing.

my 5yo male GSD loves to play with us and he "mouths" all the time - some folks don't like it but I have no problem with i'm playing as we can tell that he is inhibiting his bite pressure remarkably, and likewie even his speed in biting (as I can tell from a couple times when he was in a real fight) - TOTALLY different from when he is playing with us or even with another dog.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't read where you are actually engaging her, working WITH her....the activities you are doing are possibly overwhelming to her and she is having extinction bursts(tantrum) because her brain is ready to explode.
> 
> Please read this link and maybe try to implement the suggestions into your daily routine. I bet you see a difference in a couple of days. Nothing in Life is Free


I do train her 20 minutes first thing in the morning. then randomly 10 min through out the day. if an opportunity to train presents itself I normally have treats handy. 

I also make her sit for a minute while I hold her food bowl before giving it to her. I also like to pet her and give her kisses while she eats BC this is the only time her mouth is so busy I can really give her good Lovings. 

bubbles doesn't have a job. but she is content with fetch. I'll hide a pig ear in the dirt once in awhile she likes to dig so I thought that was fun for her.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my pup was a nipper. i thought that's what
pups do. whenever he nipped i would hold
him by some neck fur and say "no biting".
then i would rub his mouth. if he nipped
i did the same thing over and over. he slowly
stopped nipping at every touch. i think my pup
was 5 or 6 months old when finally stopped nipping
and when i say stopped i mean you could touch him
100 times and he would only nip once or twice
out of a 100 touches. it gets better with consistency
in training and age.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

This sounds like land shark phase gone wild. Ok I had to put that in there lol. I'm betting that the frustration the OP feels is only fueling the pup's behavior. At the level of frustration that it sounds like by reading here, at this point it is going to take a behaviorist stepping in and getting them back on track.

Woolf didn't have a chance of even beginning to learn bite inhibition before he was removed from his litter, and by the time I got him at 19 weeks, he still hadn't (scars to prove it), but by 5 months, the nipping had stopped. And.... I didn't have to grab his muzzle, tap his nose or any of the other physical suggestions made, just NILIF and redirection. Toys in every room, carrying toys with me and as soon as he made the first move to nip, a toy was put in his mouth.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It also depends on the intensity of the drive of the pup. Some high drive pups are higher maintenance than the more laid back ones. There is no method that works for all of them. I think that your puppy knows she has you under her spell. I agree with a previous post that puppies know when you feel out of control while they actually crave leadership. Take the advice that fits your situation and your pup's temperament from all the postings here. And...take a deep breath, stay calm and in control. Is it possible to have a good social adult dog work with her as well? Does she really have enough to do, learn, to exercise? Tired pups won't bite.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

My 7 month old bites my ankles when she wants to play, she knows the "no bite" and "leave it" but sometimes things get out of control when she is very exsited and won't listen. Today I will be using shock collar, because I have little siblings and I will not tolerate her biting them when they are playing with. I used shock collar on her when she was barking in the yard and it works like magic to correct bad behavior. But shock collar is my last resort, I would recommend it for you if you are pissed and had enough. Good luck.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

julie87 said:


> My 7 month old bites my ankles when she wants to play, she knows the "no bite" and "leave it" but sometimes things get out of control when she is very exsited and won't listen. Today I will be using shock collar, because I have little siblings and I will not tolerate her biting them when they are playing with. I used shock collar on her when she was barking in the yard and it works like magic to correct bad behavior. But shock collar is my last resort, I would recommend it for you if you are pissed and had enough. Good luck.


If by "shock collar" you mean an e-collar - I would suggest to anyone thinking of trying to use one that they get a true expert/pro in using one to show them how to use it. 

They can be a VERY good training tool (if used correctly) but if you don't know how to use one, you are VERY likely to totally screw your dog up!!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Use on a puupy is MOST unusual!


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

To use a shock collar when you are


> pissed and had enough


 is just a BAD BAD idea. 
Your dog is a puppy, but it sounds like you have been letting her get away with a lot. 
Yes it's easy to say all the correct things on here "i've been doing this I've been doing that....." but have you really? 
Be honest with yourself and have a think if you could improve some of the time you spend with your pup.
If it is really as much of a problem it sounds - go and do it the hard way, get a behaviourist and get them to help you. There's no short cuts on this, both you and your dog need training!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Mooch's post above.



Bubbles said:


> I do train her 20 minutes first thing in the morning. then randomly 10 min through out the day. if an opportunity to train presents itself I normally have treats handy.
> 
> I also make her sit for a minute while I hold her food bowl before giving it to her. *I also like to pet her and give her kisses while she eats BC this is the only time her mouth is so busy I can really give her good Lovings.*
> 
> bubbles doesn't have a job. but she is content with fetch. I'll hide a pig ear in the dirt once in awhile she likes to dig so I thought that was fun for her.


You kiss her while she is eating? Do you think she really enjoys this? Put yourself in her head for a minute or two....try to understand why she is doing what she does and alter your methods, because clearly what you are doing is NOT working. 
_Content_ and _eager_ are two different things, I'd rather have a pup be eager to do something than be content doing what *I* want.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Bubbles-is there anyway you can get a friend to video tape some of this behavior for you so everyone can see it?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with Mooch's post above.
> 
> 
> You kiss her while she is eating? Do you think she really enjoys this? Put yourself in her head for a minute or two....try to understand why she is doing what she does and alter your methods, because clearly what you are doing is NOT working.



This.

And the more frustrated you get, the more nutty she will be. Dogs are energy mirrors. You need to adjust yours before blaming the dog.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> This.
> 
> And the more frustrated you get, the more nutty she will be. Dogs are energy mirrors. You need to adjust yours before blaming the dog.


blah... I never blamed the dog. this post was BC I was pissed about the people who should be helping are not helping.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with Mooch's post above.
> 
> 
> You kiss her while she is eating? Do you think she really enjoys this? Put yourself in her head for a minute or two....try to understand why she is doing what she does and alter your methods, because clearly what you are doing is NOT working.
> _Content_ and _eager_ are two different things, I'd rather have a pup be eager to do something than be content doing what *I* want.


she doesn't care if I pet and kiss her while she's eating . She only starts bad behavior during walks or if I take things out of her mouth. I do offer treats to drop it but if she doesn't then I got to get it out.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Bubbles said:


> She only starts bad behavior during walks or if I take things out of her mouth. I do offer treats to drop it but if she doesn't then I got to get it out.


There has to be something so high value for Bubbles that she will trade for when she has something you don't want her to have. For Spirit, it's the blue ball .... throw the ball, whatever he has is mine. I try not to get into power struggles with him, or reinforce his running away from me by chasing him.

What is super high value for Bubbles?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Bubbles said:


> blah... I never blamed the dog. this post was BC I was pissed about the people who should be helping are not helping.


I won't go back and quote each thread, but it is glaringly obvious you are blaming the dog and everyone else, instead of where it should be placed. Op, until you stand back and get yourself under control, all the good advice, trainers, behaviorists will not be able to make headway.

Sometimes, we are our own worse enemy. Your pup can and will pick up on your emotions. It is a game to them and they will keep pushing it. 

Start NILIF, stop the kissing and hugging while eating, start redirecting - *consistently*. Don't try it for one day, then say it didn't work. This has become an ingrained behavior and will take longer to change. You remaining calm, no frustration will be the key.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not sure why you are angry at the vet for not suggesting a trainer. They aren't trainers. Their specialty is medicine. In fact, there are so many posts on here trashing vets for giving training advice when they don't have a clue.

The best way to find a trainer is follow the links Debbie posted for you. Look for a Schutzhund club and get their input on a trainer as they are probably most familiar with the breed. Look for breeders in your area and see if they can suggest a good trainer. Those the people that have the training information you need....not the vet.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

_OP said: Bubbles biting problem hasn't stopped no matter any method I've used. Sometimes when I have to get something dangerous out of her mouth. I offer a treat if she drops it. if she doesn't drop it I got to get it out of her mouth. When I try to get it out she growls snaps barks bites pins her ears back at me. this is how she acts even when she is trying to bite my hands. I have so many scars. instead of calling it quits on bubbles . I've taken her to training and made sure she was healthy. I'm not mad at the dog._

If my puppy snaps, growls, barks at me for taking something out of her mouth, I would likely give her a quick scruff shake, take it anyway, then turn and walk away while tossing a treat behind me. Quick, direct, and no anger.
But that is just me .


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## Snickelfritz (Feb 21, 2007)

Where about in AZ do you live? Phoenix area or more Southern? I live in the Tucson area and could recommend a Kennel/Training place for you if you live near here.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

gagsd said:


> _OP said: Bubbles biting problem hasn't stopped no matter any method I've used. Sometimes when I have to get something dangerous out of her mouth. I offer a treat if she drops it. if she doesn't drop it I got to get it out of her mouth. When I try to get it out she growls snaps barks bites pins her ears back at me. this is how she acts even when she is trying to bite my hands. I have so many scars. instead of calling it quits on bubbles . I've taken her to training and made sure she was healthy. I'm not mad at the dog._
> 
> If my puppy snaps, growls, barks at me for taking something out of her mouth, I would likely give her a quick scruff shake, take it anyway, then turn and walk away while tossing a treat behind me. Quick, direct, and no anger.
> But that is just me .


I'd advise a "scruff shake" for only a very young puppy, and only very little. For a dog this old, that's showing teeth, etc., no, it's not the answer, because it's the very type thing that made it this aggressive in the 1st place.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mooch said:


> To use a shock collar when you are is just a BAD BAD idea.
> Your dog is a puppy, but it sounds like you have been letting her get away with a lot.
> Yes it's easy to say all the correct things on here "i've been doing this I've been doing that....." but have you really?
> Be honest with yourself and have a think if you could improve some of the time you spend with your pup.
> If it is really as much of a problem it sounds - go and do it the hard way, get a behaviourist and get them to help you. There's no short cuts on this, both you and your dog need training!


All I can say is...it's really no wonder these dogs get so very messed up before they reach rescue or a shelter 
This is not to imply these folks' dogs will wind up there, but plenty of folks actually are doing these things, before throwing their hands up and declaring "I have a bad dog", and walking away.

Folks, there's a lot of training advice here, and advice to _get_ to a trainer. Please take this advice from people who have owned dogs longer than you've likely been alive.
The "fixes" some of you have tried are likely making the dogs worse, instead of better.

To train properly, you have to build a bond with the dog and engage it, not punish it for what you view as infractions, that are actually quite normal dog behavior.

Shocking it and other such methods aren't building a bond with it...you're merely punishing the dog for _normal dog behavior. _


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> I'd advise a "scruff shake" for only a very young puppy, and only very little. For a dog this old, that's showing teeth, etc., no, it's not the answer, because it's the very type thing that made it this aggressive in the 1st place.


And the only thing two trainers can agree on, is what the third is doing wrong!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

:thumbup:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> Bubbles started biting me during a training session the trainers came over yelled no at her and she turned and bit the trainer. They said the biting issue was an issue that I needed to deal with on my own.


I'd be ticked off too - what a useless trainer. 

It sounds like you need to teach Bubbles what "Drop it" means, so you don't have to fight for whatever's in her mouth or attempt to trick her into trading it for a treat. The easiest way (I found anyway) is to play 2 ball with her, when she returns with the first ball, use a clicker when she drops the ball make sure to treat with something she likes just as much as the ball so she's interested in the treat too (I used the Rollover log stuff) then throw the second ball, etc, until she's consistently dropping on cue. It's waaaay easier to get something out of a puppy's mouth when you tell them to release it than it is to wrestle it out - as you're seeing, lol.

She's biting you because she's trying to get you to play with her. Anything you do (grabbing her, whatever) is going to be interpreted as playing so be careful! I can't advise how to stop the biting, because I personally believe it's better to teach a soft bite than no bite. I understand if people think that's weird, but it works for me and I like it.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Bubbles said:


> Sometimes when I have to get something dangerous out of her mouth.


For starters, Bubbles needs to be in places where she can't put dangerous things in her mouth.  When you can't watch her put her in the crate or confine her to an area where all she can reach is her toys. (I use to tether Harley to the kitchen table leg when I was cooking etc.)




Bubbles said:


> She is 5 months old. I've tried treats and toys. I wish people would listen I was consistent with toys and treats until she learned if she bites she gets a toy. spray bottle helped until she became UN phased by the water.


There's fine line between putting a toy in a puppies mouth right before you know they're going to bite you (distraction) and giving them a toy so they stop biting you. (reward)
A trainer coming to your house for a few hours should be able to see what is it that you're doing wrong and help you become proactive rather than reactive.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Some clients call me for private training and when I get there and we start analyzing the situation and drawing up a plan of action all I get are "buts" so they don't have to take responsibility for their dog's behavior. It seems like they want the magic wand but not doing the work to get their dogs to improve. The people who are successful are the ones who take the advice and put in the work, as simple as that.
Bubbles, we all have offered you so much advice, yet it seems like it has fallen on deaf ears. What is it that you want from us? Validation to be ****** off with your dog? Find a behaviorist to seriously help you with your dog before she gets too strong physically and one gets hurt and then what? Contact Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources and go to trainer search in your area.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Twyla said:


> I won't go back and quote each thread, but it is glaringly obvious you are blaming the dog and everyone else, instead of where it should be placed. Op, until you stand back and get yourself under control, all the good advice, trainers, behaviorists will not be able to make headway.
> 
> Sometimes, we are our own worse enemy. Your pup can and will pick up on your emotions. It is a game to them and they will keep pushing it.
> 
> Start NILIF, stop the kissing and hugging while eating, start redirecting - *consistently*. Don't try it for one day, then say it didn't work. This has become an ingrained behavior and will take longer to change. You remaining calm, no frustration will be the key.


I never blamed the dog. I went to people who were supposed to help with bubbles and me. they did no such thing. I take time training bubbles on my own. I do what I'm supposed to do if I have a problem i get a trainer, go to the vet. I haven't received any help from these people taking my money and time and not focus on my issues of why I'm there in the first place.

people accusing me of abusing my dog and not fully reading my problem. I know this isn't a teething problem. I know the difference when she's teething on my hand and the aggressive bites I receive while getting stuff out of her mouth or going on walks. she picks dangerous stuff up as we go on walks. like rocks, cactus fruit. 

you want me to listen and take advice. I think you need to listen to what I'm saying too. I also just don't get a long with some people on this website they always misread what I say and it irritates me. 

like I said AGAIN she is not aggressive or shows signs of aggression when she is eating she sometimes even rolls over while she's eating to be petted.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> I never blamed the dog. I went to people who were supposed to help with bubbles and me. they did no such thing. I take time training bubbles on my own. I do what I'm supposed to do if I have a problem i get a trainer, go to the vet. I haven't received any help from these people taking my money and time and not focus on my issues of why I'm there in the first place.
> 
> people accusing me of abusing my dog and not fully reading my problem. I know this isn't a teething problem. I know the difference when she's teething on my hand and the aggressive bites I receive while getting stuff out of her mouth or going on walks. she picks dangerous stuff up as we go on walks. like rocks, cactus fruit.
> 
> ...


You sound irritated and this won't help you train your dog. I think none of us can help you if you don't at least try so that's why it would be a good idea to search and interview trainers that can see what's going on. Patchon has asked for a video so we could see, but you don't respond to that (great) idea. This goes beyond the forum it seems like. I hope it works out for you and Bubbles. Good luck to you, I have tried my best to help you and this is my last attempt.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bubbles~We all read what you are writing, and it seems the consensus is obvious....have you read the links that have been posted in this thread? You keep repeating yourself.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I didn't have the biting issues with mine but I had a heck of a time potty training. It wasn't working until I sat down and really thought about what my dog needed. Once I understood this I had a whole different dog, one that I'm very proud to own today. None of it was her fault, but until I realized what I was doing wrong, it just wasn't working. I'm happy that I took that time Whether its training, potty training, or biting, as the handler you have to figure out what is best for you and your dog..it might take putting pieces together from every bit of advice that is given.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Bubbles said:


> she picks dangerous stuff up as we go on walks. like rocks, cactus fruit.


This is an example of what you are missing. It is simple. Don't let your puppy or dog pick up dangerous stuff when you walk.

Your puppy should be under control and paying attention to you. 
Not aimlessly picking up dangerous stuff.

This is but one example of you not being in control, which means there are probably others.

You need someone to teach you how to raise a puppy and be in control.

There are some lousy trainers but trainers,of any kind, are only as good as your willingness to put in the work.

Instead of being angry follow up on the advice you have received.

Being angry at your pup or posters on here won't solve anything.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Bubbles said:


> I never blamed the dog. I went to people who were supposed to help with bubbles and me. they did no such thing. I take time training bubbles on my own. I do what I'm supposed to do if I have a problem i get a trainer, go to the vet. I haven't received any help from these people taking my money and time and not focus on my issues of why I'm there in the first place.
> 
> people accusing me of abusing my dog and not fully reading my problem. I know this isn't a teething problem. I know the difference when she's teething on my hand and the aggressive bites I receive while getting stuff out of her mouth or going on walks. she picks dangerous stuff up as we go on walks. like rocks, cactus fruit.
> 
> ...


*Very, very true!*

And shame on those people that read what you say!


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

It is interesting to me when people feel there situation and/or dog is "unique" in that proven training techniques offered up just don't work for their dog. Invariably the problem is the trainer/owner not the animal. And insisting they have tried and it doesn't work is a cop-out. People need to take the time to figure how to make it work and remember that usually there is no quick fix.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There are schutzhund clubs in Arizona and in your area and these folks understand working little gator dogs. Nothing you are describing sounds like a mentally impaired dog but an out of control teenager. At 5 months, Beau was horrid (though we got through the biting phase a bit better with early redirection and a lot of tug play-of course he was not left with toys laying around ever. I was the keeper of the toys)

When I needed to get some help training a dog I contacted a club because I knew their "trainer" was good and willing to work one on one with individuals. So I paid for private lessons with him before the rest showed up for training. (then loaded the dog up and watched them train). 

That may be your most effective approach but you definitely need to be willing to wipe the slate clean, forget what you have tried, and do what they suggest.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i think people could help with internet dog training problem solving if they at least had a video of the behaviour (unless i missed one), one video is worth a thousand posts imo and will be less frustrating for you trying to explain things in words that we all have to guess exactly what it looks like. 

i'm no expert but i just never seem to experience the problems so many keep having.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

julie87 said:


> My 7 month old bites my ankles when she wants to play, she knows the "no bite" and "leave it" but sometimes things get out of control when she is very exsited and won't listen. Today I will be using shock collar, because I have little siblings and I will not tolerate her biting them when they are playing with. I used shock collar on her when she was barking in the yard and it works like magic to correct bad behavior. But shock collar is my last resort, I would recommend it for you if you are pissed and had enough. Good luck.


 
did i actually read this???


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I will take a video but its hard when she is biting the crap out of me.

some one on yahoo answers did help me a lot. we talked for a while about my training and what changed. I used to use a harness but for training I was required to have a choke collar. They advised me to go back to the harness. They said there's so many GSD they see with leash aggression BC of prongs and choke collars.  

bubbles gets bored while we walk BC I can't walk fast. so she picks stuff up. I'm not able to walk fast or run. 

I did get a shock collar. just in case. and I did get a trainer that will come visit me and bubbles. I'm so happy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Bubbles said:


> They said there's so many GSD they see with leash aggression BC of prongs and choke collars.


Collars don't cause leash aggression.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

"shock" collars can get you into a lot more trouble than prongs unless you know what you are doing. In the right hands, they are a good tool.

Your dog really sounds pretty normal and needs to learn to respect YOU not a peice of equipment.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Have you considered using a targeting stick? It sounds as if your mobility is compromised and introducing a targeting stick and the various games you can play with it would help- it can also help keep a dog focused and out of trouble on walks.

IMO you shouldn't resort to the "heavy equipment" until you have been working with a reputable trainer (and following through with their program consistently at home) for a while, and then not until they suggest it and train you in the proper way to use whatever tool they have suggested.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> They said there's so many GSD they see with leash aggression BC of prongs and choke collars.



The cause is poor breeding and/or poor training, not the collar.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

"They" on yahoo answers has bubbles listening! Too bad it isn't the best place to get information. 
I sure hope the trainer you've contacted will help you, bubbles...and please don't put on the e-collar until you've been taught how to use it(it isn't something that happens in one or two sessions either)


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Bubbles said:


> I will take a video but its hard when she is biting the crap out of me.
> 
> some one on yahoo answers did help me a lot. we talked for a while about my training and what changed. I used to use a harness but for training I was required to have a choke collar. They advised me to go back to the harness. They said there's so many GSD they see with leash aggression BC of prongs and choke collars.
> 
> ...


"They" sound like real experts!

Harness sounds like a "real solution". (NOT!)

Did the experts say how many GSD's were "so many"?


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Put the e collar on yourself first - you should at least know what your PUPPY will feel!

I can't believe people would put a shock collar on a pup - there's just NO need for it


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

Mooch said:


> Put the e collar on yourself first - you should at least know what your PUPPY will feel!
> 
> I can't believe people would put a shock collar on a pup - there's just NO need for it


I did try the shock collar on myself and I used a taser on myself, ain't that bad. Shock collars don't hurt them they are a good solution IF nothing else worked and your kids are in danger because you can't control your dog. I guess you would rather have your kids be bitten than use a shock collar on your dog, well everyone have their own priorities...


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I have no issue with shock collars - if they are used for the right reasons and at the right time. I'm actually considering buying one myself because I have problems with my young male chasing my horses.
The collars worry me in as far as people "getting pissed off" going out and buying one and then using them as "punishment" on the dog.
If the OP is going to use one she needs to be taught how to use it properly - they are not a quick fix. Maybe you could tell her how you used yours rather than just telling her to buy one? If it worked for you that's good.
Personally in my opinion - a 5 month old puppy is to young, especially with an inexperienced owner that seems more interested in blaming anything in the world but themselves.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

What a super long thread! 

First things first - Julie87 ... if you are using a shock collar / e-collar on your puppy to stop it from biting your siblings you are doing it WRONG. I have respect for a number of training tools, and I do respect the e-collar as a tool, to be used APPROPRIATELY. Shocking your dog because it behaves inappropriately around your siblings is WRONG ... there are no if, ands or buts. YOU should have trained the dog to act more appropriately, and if you haven't yet, then keep the dog on leash, or in its crate. 

Bubbles - you have received a ton of information here, and a lot of it is confusing, contradictory and likely doesn't make sense. Everyone is offering their personal experiences of what worked for them with their dogs / or dogs in rescue / foster, whatever. 

You feel that the problems with you and your dog are unique. You're right - they are unique ... no one else has the same problem as you ... do you know why? Because they are not YOU. 

Your puppy is really no different than any other GSD landshark out there. It might be a tad more hyper than someone else's puppy, but seriously, all puppies go through the teething stage, and there are always some puppies that are just "more" than some others. 

So, yes, your situation is UNIQUE, because the only thing different is YOU. 

Bubbles, you need to step back and realize that you are the problem with your dog. You are not consistent, training is only done in "blocks" of time, you are rewarding when you should be redirecting, etc. 

I'm not trying to "slam" you or push you into a corner to get all defensive. Most of us have probably been where you are now, with our first dogs. Looking down at this monster and trying to figure out what the heck we did wrong. 

The reality is, bad behaviour in dogs is a result of incorrect training, or no training. 

My suggestion ... which has been said in here before - credit to whoever posted it first!

1 - pick ONE training method and stick with it ... quit confusing your dog! You have so many "punishments" for your dog when he bites the dog hasn't a clue what's coming. Dogs need to know that if I do "A" then "B" will happen - your puppy is confused

2 - quit going to the vet for behaviour / training - most vets know nothing about training, you're wasting your money going back there

3 - CALM DOWN - you feed the energy to your puppy with all your frustration, anger, resentment, etc. And, please, don't try and tell me / us that you are calm when you are working with your dog and when he bites you. I won't buy it. I've been there, and so has everyone else ... any inexperienced dog owner, or even novice dog owner, is going to react when their dog / puppy bites / nips them. It's human nature ... just that simple reaction causes your dog's energy to escalate ... and then there's a war ... who's gonna win? Won't be you!

4 - Training is NOT done in 20 minute blocks here, 10 minute blocks there, etc. Training a puppy is 24/7 ... or at least as long as the puppy is awake. I had Kyleigh attached to my waist for the first 4 months while we were in the house - unless she was sleeping or we were playing outside. This taught her to follow me, respect my space, and I was able to watch her and make sure she didn't get into anything. 

You mentioned that your puppy eats everything off the ground ... tighten the leash a bit ... and walk faster. I didn't give Kyleigh free rein to sniff everything she wanted when we walked ... I'd have never made it around the block. At 5 months, I'd walk about half a block and then stop at a corner (making sure there's no garbage or anything) and let her sniff for a minute or two. Then we'd walk again. No stopping, and walk quickly. Don't give him a chance to stop and smell the roses. You'll give him that later. 

Finally, you need to find a trainer you like and will work with YOU ... not your dog ... YOU. Most of us on here could take your dog for 2-3 weeks and have 90% of your dog's "problems" under control or even gone. But until you are trained in how to do it, your dog will revert back to being the way it is, because you don't have the tools to figure it out. 

Bubbles, we can't "help" you on line ... No one is here to SEE you interact with your puppy. We can provide advice, information and suggestions, that's all. 

I really hope you can find a good trainer - you've been given a list of people to contact (and seriously, why do you continue to spend money on a trainer that won't address your main issue?) and that in 3-4 months from now, you'll look back on the horrors of the landshark phase and laugh. 

Good luck!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Maybe they feel it differently. 
If their noses are so much more sensitive than ours, how do we know that they are not also more sensitive to pain?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I did try the shock collar on myself and I used a taser on myself, ain't that bad. Shock collars don't hurt them they are a good solution IF nothing else worked and your kids are in danger because you can't control your dog. I guess you would rather have your kids be bitten than use a shock collar on your dog, well everyone have their own priorities...


I have a dogtra and when checking it, I don't feel the stim til it hits 16....others may feel it at lower levels. 

I think we all have different tolerance and a taser would definitely be "that bad"!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Maybe they feel it differently.


I don't think the shock collar is meant to create pain, it's meant to create an instant correction to an undesired behavior. The current is an element of uncomfortable suprise to the dog. 

If a person really wanted to test it, they should wear the collar and give the controls to their partner...or sibling...or co-worker. Let them wear it all day.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Lilie said:


> If a person really wanted to test it, they should wear the collar and give the controls to their partner...or sibling...or co-worker. Let them wear it all day.


Or go on Killer Karaoke:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I have a dogtra and when checking it, I don't feel the stim til it hits 16....others may feel it at lower levels.
> 
> I think we all have different tolerance and a taser would definitely be "that bad"!


Me too. And Jax feels it at 4-5. I had a thread where I asked that question somewhere and had a very good answer on why she reacts at such a low level that I can't even feel. It has to do with the conductivity of our skin.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Me too. And Jax feels it at 4-5. I had a thread where I asked that question somewhere and had a very good answer on why she reacts at such a low level that I can't even feel. It has to do with the conductivity of our skin.


Thought so. 
To me, uncomfortable surprise does equal pain.
I am not saying this is ok or not ok, it is a training tool that is used.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Please go back and read Kyleigh's post - the advice is spot on!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> Please go back and read Kyleigh's post - the advice is spot on!


I thought so too!


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

*Shock collars were created to correct bad behaviour it IS a training method*, so Kyleigh I don't think there is anything wrong with using one. You don't have to shock the dog at full blast, you don't have to shock at all you can use the sound button first as a warning. This is the fastest and the most consistant way to teach a dog if you don't have the patience and a lot of time to train them, or don't have money for professional trainer. Dogs learn almost* instantly* with shock collars on. You can't always train them other ways...If your dog runs in the backyard barking waking the neighborhs how are you going to "train" her to stop? will you be running around after her telling her to be quiet? Treats and redirecting don't always work unless maybe if you did it as full time job. Like I said earlier I use shock collar as last resort it is not a primary training method.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Julie - we are so obviously going to disagree ... I did NOT discount the e-collar! I even said I respected it as a training tool when used appropriately. 

Your own words:



> This is the fastest and the most consistant way to teach a dog if you don't have the patience and a lot of time to train them, or don't have money for professional trainer


THIS IS AN INAPPROPRIATE METHOD OF TRAINING ... you don't have the patience or the time??? Really??? Before I say something else that might get me banned, I'll stop my comments right here.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

julie87 said:


> This is the fastest and the most consistant way to teach a dog if you don't have the patience and a lot of time to train them, or don't have money for professional trainer.


I don't want to further derail this thread into an e-collar debate, we have plenty of those on the board already if people want to continue on that topic, but I think this comment needs to be addressed. E-collars are not a tool that should be used without some sort of professional assistance, and like any other method of training it does require some time and patience. 

If you don't have the time or patience to train your dog, have little to no prior dog training experience, little to no knowledge about dog behavior, and don't want to find a trainer or enroll in an obedience class you really shouldn't have a dog. 

Carry on. Great post, Kyleigh.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

Kyleigh said:


> Julie - we are so obviously going to disagree ... I did NOT discount the e-collar! I even said I respected it as a training tool when used appropriately.
> 
> Your own words:
> 
> ...


 
Wow Kyleigh, really? So much heat... over what? Calm yourself  Don't be so dramatic over nothing  Have a nice day


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Kyleigh, great post. I hope the OP reads it in the manner with which it was intended and gets help from a qualified trainer.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have trained with an ecollar. For some circumstances they are great tools. Not my preference to use one 100% but some do. They require impeccible timing and an ability to read the body language of the dog. In the right hands they are magic. In the wrong hands a disaster. 

The simple task of redirecting has not been mastered here as the dog bites the OP to "get the toy" and the pup is allowed to pick things up from the ground. If the OP had already developed that sense of timing and ability to read her dog [and this is NOT a slam, these skills take time to develop] I would say maybe she is ready for an ecollar though we should note that not even Lou Castle, a known expert on ecollars and a strong advocate for their use, suggests using an ecollar to stop biting puppies.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I have trained with an ecollar. For some circumstances they are great tools. Not my preference to use one 100% but some do. *They require impeccible timing and an ability to read the body language of the dog.* In the right hands they are magic. In the wrong hands a disaster.
> 
> The simple task of redirecting has not been mastered here as the dog bites the OP to "get the toy" and the pup is allowed to pick things up from the ground. If the OP had already developed that sense of timing and ability to read her dog [and this is NOT a slam, these skills take time to develop]* I would say maybe she is ready for an ecollar* though we should note that not even Lou Castle, a known expert on ecollars and a strong advocate for their use, suggests using an ecollar to stop biting puppies.


Yes of course thats why you have to watch your dogs reactions to it. 

Exactly, if OP is already losing her mind with the dog I mean lets face it their bites HURT, imagine if they hurt your child.... that is unacceptable behavior and need to be corrected immidietely and* IF *you can't stop the behavior then shock collar is definately a good choice because it does fix the problem and fast too. you can't ALWAYS use conventional methods of training. I think sometimes people get carried away with thinking about dogs that they forget about humans in this cas the OP...I really do feel sorry for her ...if my dog would bite me I would do whatever it takes to stop her... if she bites me today she can bite somebody else tomorrow even though its playful biting. OP, dont give up it will get better!!!


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

It's not about reading reactions to the corrections, it is about watching body language to predict behavior and therefore TIME the corrections appropriately. The proper use of an e-collar requires behavioral knowledge, foundation training to have been consistent and effective, and the kind of timing that one only gets from being instructed by an expert in person.

Using an e-collar to teach bite inhibition is just not smart. Advocating the use of an e-collar to teach bite inhibition to someone who has a demonstrated lack of control is extremely foolhardy. 

So far several very experienced and savy long time GSD owners and trainers have given good advice on how to actually handle this situation as well as discouraged the use of an e-collar for this particular problem and for this particular poster.

It would be best to heed that advice.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Julie, 

I think the OP has good advice from people with decades of experience supporting Kyleigh's response. I know I have 30 years with GSDs and have taken two very high drive crazy dogs to a certified and operational staus as cadaver dogs. My advice being ... we can't fix this online, get thee to a trainer and my own experience is that shutzhund people would probably be the best resource as they know the breed ... and stick with their advice.

I know others who have replied in support of Kyleigh's post have similar (if different) levels of experience. *Since you are advocating this, you may want to qualify your level of expertise in this discipine and the proper appraoch*. If the OP cannot get the dog to redirect to a toy in anticipation of a bite, how is she going to have the timing to deliver an electronic correction for same? What is she going to do if it backfires (I have the feeling you are looking at high stim not low stim) and the puppy redirects?


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

I don't have experience I just know what worked for me on my dog. And I know how much it bothers everyone but I will say this again. It fixes bad behavior FAST. If the dog still misbehaves after using shock collar you are obviously doing it wrong. I'm done talking about this this is not a shock collar thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

So right now you're grabbing your dog and encouraging her to bite you when she is. That's not going to work, so cut it out. 

You need to be training her and engaging her. My puppy (almost 5 mo) will bite and chew on me or my face if I am not directing his energy somewhere. I always have treats on me. If I'm on the floor playing and he starts biting, I jump up, stay HAPPY (not angry at the dog, he has no idea what he's doing is wrong) and start asking for some sits, downs, bows, touches, etc. Then I'll give some treats for it, he comes completely out of the mouthing/biting mindset, and we'll start rolling the ball or something again. (he's also teething so we've stopped tug which SUCKS for both of us. ) 

I don't ever play with him with my hands or encourage chewing. If he bites me and I don't have something to distract him with, it's an "AH!" and the game's over, I'm off the floor, and walk away completely ignoring him and doing my own thing. 

Don't give her the opportunity to bite you and she can't. 

If my puppy has something he shouldn't have in his mouth, I'll ask him to come and offer a treat. If he doesn't drop it on the way for me to pick up, I'll grab a toy and engage him so that he drops it. Pretty simple, you just have to be consistent. Don't expect a vet at petsmart no less to give you any help on behavior.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

julie87 said:


> I don't have experience I just know what worked for me on my dog. And I know how much it bothers everyone but I will say this again. It fixes bad behavior FAST. If the dog still misbehaves after using shock collar you are obviously doing it wrong. I'm done talking about this this is not a shock collar thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Fast does not always equal good. 

I can teach you, Julie, to run faster by chasing you with biting dogs. I can teach you to teach your dog better, by hitting you with a shovel. I can teach it faster but as soon as I walk away with my shovel, have you learned anything at all? Once my biting dogs are done chasing you, will you slow down? 

Neither of my methods are proven to create behavior change, other than in the minute. Using a collar as you describe is not how people who post about using them are recommending them either. 

*So why people continue to counter you, even though you insist on saying what you say, is so that other people who read this post - thousands of other people who google and find this - will know that this is the wrong, wrong, WRONG way to use a tool like the e-collar. *

And that there are many other ways to TEACH the behavior you want.


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## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

Bubbles - my dog would bite aggressively when she was a puppy. Not sure if she didn't get "disciplined" enough from her mom when she was a puppy or not. She was an only puppy so she was only socialized with other dogs and kids. When I got her home I noticed right away that she was more outgoing than my previous dog (when she was a puppy). I also noticed that as she got older she would bite more. Even though I would correct her with giving her a toy instead of my hand/arm/leg.  I noticed you said that you can not really run and play with your pup. A lot of time they bite because of excess energy. Once I started taking my pup out more and running her around and just playing with her more and more, I noticed that the "serious" biting started to lessen and I was able to get her attention with a toy or a food treat. My dog has a huge ball drive so that was a reward for her to drop something in her mouth and to quit biting if she was doing that. Once she quite the biting, I would praise her and give her the "reward".

Also, have you thought about putting your puppy in doggy day care? It helps with their energy levels and it also helps with their socializing as well.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

What Jean said X's 1,000.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I think we all have different tolerance and a taser would definitely be "that bad"!


Tasers are "that bad" or they'd not be sold as personal protection devices


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Fast does not always equal good.
> 
> I can teach you, Julie, to run faster by chasing you with biting dogs. I can teach you to teach your dog better, by hitting you with a shovel. I can teach it faster but as soon as I walk away with my shovel, have you learned anything at all? Once my biting dogs are done chasing you, will you slow down?
> 
> ...


Excellent post


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am hopeful that Bubbles will read Kyleigh's post and that we don't confuse with other stuff for a while until she has the chance to do so and go on from there. I am hopeful it will help her come back with some good questions on finding trainers, etc! I would, of course, for a puppy look for https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer?source=navbar

Thanks everyone for keeping this on target from here on out. 



Kyleigh said:


> What a super long thread!
> 
> First things first - Julie87 ... if you are using a shock collar / e-collar on your puppy to stop it from biting your siblings you are doing it WRONG. I have respect for a number of training tools, and I do respect the e-collar as a tool, to be used APPROPRIATELY. Shocking your dog because it behaves inappropriately around your siblings is WRONG ... there are no if, ands or buts. YOU should have trained the dog to act more appropriately, and if you haven't yet, then keep the dog on leash, or in its crate.
> 
> ...


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I enjoyed reading the 4 points Kyleigh summarized.


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## lostangl (Jul 15, 2002)

If she lives close to Tucson, I know of a great club that she can go to for help.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Maybe you could PM her ... i don't know if she's even reading this thread anymore!


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

In my opinion a e collar should not be used on a 5 month old puppy. At least I would not use one at that age. The e collar is a great training tool and no it is not a tool of last resort either. Any tool can become abusive when used incorrectly and for those who have no experience raising a dog should see a trainer who can work with you. If you are thinking about using an e collar here is a link to Lou Castle's site about using it, How To...

I think everyone has put in a lot of information for Bubbles to look at.


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## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

Great post Kyleigh.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

julie87 said:


> This is the fastest and the most consistant way to teach a dog if you don't have the patience and a lot of time to train them, or don't have money for professional trainer.
> *If you don't have the patience, time, or money for training, then you probably shouldn't have a dog.*
> 
> Dogs learn almost* instantly* with shock collars on. You can't always train them other ways...If your dog runs in the backyard barking waking the neighborhs how are you going to "train" her to stop? will you be running around after her telling her to be quiet?
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ditto the great post Kyleigh

I think it bears RE-Reading, and then read it again. 

As for e collars , they have their place but not on a 5 month old puppy in my opinion. Putting an e collar on a 5month old puppy for me, would be the lazy way out 

Consistency, Patience and building a relationship with your puppy , all else falls into place.

Did I mention to read Kyleigh's post again


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

kayleigh. 

1. I can't walk fast. I have medical issues. I'm telling this several times now. 

2. the collar is last resort. if all training fails. the collar had a vibration mode so i can get her attention if she is far away or if she's biting. I don't have to use the shock thing . it also makes beeping noises. I would never use it in an abusive way that's just wrong

3. medical problems can lead to handler aggression. that's why I wanted to look in to it. no offense but I want to make sure she is healthy. its my piece of mind.

4. No problem is the same. no dog is the same. no master is the same. it might not sound unique but the variables are not always the same. I'm not blaming the dog. no matter how much you think this. Everyone thinks I'm to soft with her . I'm really reluctant to grab her by the scruff or hit her in anyway. I grab her by the nose BC I don't think it hurts as much. 

5. I do read what you guys say but when I read stuff that is totally twisted or out of context of the situation no I don't bother accepting that advice. The people who nicely consider what I say and give advice relevant to the situation yes I do listen.

I did get a personal behaviorist/trainer for the last time. I'm not repeating myself again.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Bubbles said:


> kayleigh.
> 
> 1. I can't walk fast. I have medical issues. I'm telling this several times now.
> 
> ...


*No, no, get a DOG behaviorist!*

*Other than that it sounds like you really have the situation under great control and you know just what you are doig!*

*I may have to try your method of grabbing the dog by the nose when my guy does something wrong! Never thought of that solution.*

*When you do that - a couple of questions on your method.*
* Do you check to make sure his mouth is closed first? Teeth!!!*
* How long do you hold on to your grab?*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*sigh* Is the sarcasm really necessary? There's helpful advice, there's constructive criticism....and then there's snarkiness. Let's all try to play nice and keep it to the first two, shall we?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Everyone thinks I'm to soft with her . I'm really reluctant to grab her by the scruff or hit her in anyway. I grab her by the nose BC I don't think it hurts as much.


Who is "everyone"? Because grabbing the muzzle has _created_ the problems you're dealing with now. That is not a "soft" method of "training", that is a problem in and of itself. If anything you've been too harsh already and that's why there's issues. 

I don't know what else to say - other than "if it's not working, do something different".

Read through this - Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong and try to implement them.
There's no walking involved.


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## Ageizm (Nov 11, 2012)

Kyleigh said:


> It's human nature ... just that simple reaction causes your dog's energy to escalate ... and then there's a war ... who's gonna win? Won't be you!


I agree with every part except this one. Human > Domesticated Pet

Top of the food chain!

If even for a second you believe that your inferior to your dog in any way... get a cat. If a *war* ever broke out between me and my dog... not that it ever would; as it's clear that I'm the boss in my house...but hypothetically speaking...I'd be burying my dog with my *bare hands* and getting my wounds treated afterwards. 

Thankfully I'm on top of my baby boy's training so this won't ever be an issue for us.... 

Not too sure if this has been mentioned but bubbles might just be in over her head... you might want to consider finding her a new home and going with another more docile breed.

I love cats btw! Their awesome animals!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> *sigh* Is the sarcasm really necessary? There's helpful advice, there's constructive criticism....and then there's snarkiness. Let's all try to play nice and keep it to the first two, shall we?


Sorry (if you were referring to my above post). I hope no one took it seriously about the Dog behaviorist?

*"medical problems can lead to handler aggression. that's why I wanted to look in to it. no offense but I want to make sure she is healthy. its my piece of mind."*


Did you mean that the handlers' medical problem can lead to the dog attacking the handler? I am not sure that I am following this - what medical problem of a handler could cause a dog to attack the handler?

Note I am not asking about yours specifically, just a general inquiry since i have never heard of this type of problem causing a dog to "go up the leash" so to speak.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I think she's referring to the DOG having a possible medical issue that is causing it to bite!

Bubbles your posts are just full of excuses and justifications which probably sound great in your head but they just stop people who are really trying from helping you. You have an answer and excuse for everything. :'( 

If you have a medical condition why did you get a large active breed of dog that needs a **** of a lot of exercise and training? 
Are you able to ride a bike? perhaps you could take her for short "slow" bike rides instead?
Or really as horrible as this sounds consider getting a cat or a smaller or older dog?
It's not really fair on you or your dog if your medical issues make things difficult for you to train her


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, at least 120 years of GSD experience from multiple folks agreed with Kyleigh's post and I do think it was written very clearly taking into account the posts by the OP. I am sorry she did not take it that way. 

Given the OP's physical limitations.... As much as I love the breed and have owned them for many years, my husband and I hit the realization that at some point we may not be able to deal with the physical aspects of raising a GSD puppy and will look at rescuing older adults. That may be what the OP needs to look at or cats or another breed. As the pup matures the dog park may not become a viable outlet for her energy as GSDs sometimes grow into dogs that are not really for dog parks. What are the options to ensure the pup gets adequate excercise but is not overstimulated?

FWIW, what the puppy is doing is in no way related to handler agression..but very normal puppy behavior that has not been nipped in the bud with a consistent and appropriate approach. And it takes TIME to see the light at the end of the tunnel with these pups. 

The harness doesn't make any sense at all. Prongs or chokes do not make agressive dogs. Genetics and mishandling do. It is not the tools but the person using them. And the pup does not sound agressive.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Ageizm said:


> Not too sure if this has been mentioned but bubbles might just be in over her head... you might want to consider finding her a new home and going with another more docile breed.


A first time dog owner buying a backyard bred GSD? Noooo..... I didn't see this coming from miles away.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Ageizm said:


> I agree with every part except this one. Human > Domesticated Pet
> 
> Top of the food chain!
> 
> ...


and the moderators think I'm being rude... lol. 

trolls go back under your bridge.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some folks have gotten frustrated ...... and have made some snarky statements (which given your statement that you loose your temper, you should understand) but nobody here is a troll. Lets not go there. Folks have sincerely tried to help.

It seems to me that enough has been said. ..............


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

Bubbles said:


> and the moderators think I'm being rude... lol.
> 
> trolls go back under your bridge.


Actually ageizm is correct, I would never allow any animal in my house that I did not feel I could physically overpower, and I dont think anyone else should, but that is their choice. Im sure it would never come down to it, but I could not justify keeping an animal in my house that I was afraid of, not only would it be bad for me, but it would be bad for the animal, as it would feel like it was the pack leader and ultimately have no clue where its place in life was.

Im not an aggressive person, and I love my dog and look forward to spending many years with her, but if she ever turned on me, I would be ready, and unafraid to defend myself.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

From what I can see you are so focused on correction and teaching your dog what NOT to do that I don't believe you have offered instruction in what you want the dog TO do. This is a typical problem, the mouthing, and a typical response from a novice owner who hasn't gotten help from a good trainer. I see this all the time with jumping up on people too. The typical novice owner wants to correct away from the problem while not teaching appropriate greeting behavior. 

Result?

The dog has NO IDEA WHAT TO DO! 

You have to teach the dog an appropriate replacement behavior. Mouthing, jumping up... these are instinctive behaviors which will not extinguish just from correction because the dog has a need which is fulfilled by them. Or if you do correct away (typically using harsh methods) the need will be redirected into even more inappropriate behavior. So you have to teach an alternative behavior which also fulfills that need/instinct. Something positive for the dog to do instead. When you meet with a trainer you want to be sure they address this. 

Ways to train and tire a dog when you have limited mobility- I mentioned this earlier but you ignored it. 

Target Stick Basics

Clik Stik Retractable Target Stick with Clicker - Dog Training Supply

Amazon.com: Susan Garrett's Crate Games for Self-Control and Motivation: Susan Garrett: Movies & TV


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Marc said:


> Actually ageizm is correct, I would never allow any animal in my house that I did not feel I could physically overpower, and I dont think anyone else should, but that is their choice. Im sure it would never come down to it, but I could not justify keeping an animal in my house that I was afraid of, not only would it be bad for me, but it would be bad for the animal, as it would feel like it was the pack leader and ultimately have no clue where its place in life was.
> 
> Im not an aggressive person, and I love my dog and look forward to spending many years with her, but if she ever turned on me, I would be ready, and unafraid to defend myself.


If you have a sound dog, raised properly, it should never come to a physical confrontation where your health and safety are at risk. My dogs are twice as strong as me, so if they set their minds to it I'm not sure I could physically overpower them, but fortunately, they're not going to "turn on me" so I have no need to defend myself from them. There are plenty of ways to asset leadership without needing to physically overpower a dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This is a good article concerning "dominant" dogs. And Bubbles is not sounding like that at all The target audience is the typical macho man police officer -- you know the ones who show off their scars from dog bites. The one who has an intact male patrol dog bred for police service.

Note how the very strong macho police trainer recommends not turning it into a power struggle but doing things like controlling resources. 

I have been told (by 3 police master trainers) my pup is a strong dog and I have seen some signs that, improperly managed, he would be capable of going up the lead. For every hour of scentwork training we spend I probably put in two hours on obedience because he needs it. I control a lot of things with his life. He must down before eating. Down and stay in his crate when I open the door etc etc etc. All trained motivationally. FINALLY mastering loose leash casual walking on a flat collar using tried and true "be a tree" methods at 17 months old [we passed an offlead formal obedience routine at 15 months but everyday life is in some respects harder] - 17 months old, not 5 months. At 5 months he was a total hellion. I also provide plenty of excercise. Structured. I control.

This link is a PDF you would have to download. Good article if you think you have a "dominant" dog or an agressive dog. Mainly because I think it is good all the way around.........

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tarheelcanine.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2FJerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf&ei=Oma_UPXZMYiC8ATN3YDoBw&usg=AFQjCNEY97XKODzb1PWyL0GMjRtio6TQlA&sig2=8HwAIn-dUXIxaBOSzxueIw


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

GrammaD said:


> From what I can see you are so focused on correction and teaching your dog what NOT to do that I don't believe you have offered instruction in what you want the dog TO do.


This is so true - it pretty well sums up any training I've ever done with my dogs. I'm not going to be able to help you with keeping Bubbles from biting you, since I encourage this behavior. But keep in mind that she's not 'biting' you: what she's doing is 'mouthing' and she's like every other GSD puppy out there - they call them "landsharks" for a reason, lol. She wants to play with you and this is how they initiate it. 

Human babies put everything in their mouths too, to explore. It's so normal and to be expected from puppies as well. It's too bad that their teeth are so sharp, but it's also a good thing, because when they bite too hard with each other they learn not to use so much pressure because whichever one gets the bite will yelp, or even stop playing. They learn not to bite so hard this way, because they want to play all day - until they're too tired to keep it up anymore. 

When I teach my puppy not to bite hard, I stop playing just before it hurts too much. The worst thing, IMO, is when you grab their muzzles when they bite, because this is just too rough. It'll escalate the intensity, which is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to teach. I don't want the game to get rougher, I want it to get gentler. So this is probably why Bubbles is getting you so frustrated since she's probably getting way too rough and you think she's being aggressive, but she's just playing the game you taught her by mistake. 

What toys are you using to redirect her mouthing? This is the only thing that worked for DH, because he doesn't agree with me and wouldn't let my puppy mouth him. He tried holding his muzzle, because that worked for him with different breeds (lol) but he found out the hard way that my puppy liked that even more, and came back at him twice as hard. I told him not to do that, to shove toys in his mouth, but not let go of the toy - keep him engaged in a chewy fun game. It's not like putting a pacifier in a baby's mouth because a puppy won't be satisfied with just a plug, they want games. Lots of playing, lots of games, lots of chewing. 

When my puppy wasn't playing chewing games with us, he chewed on bones. When he wasn't chewing, he was sleeping. LOL, but I'm not kidding.
Does Bubbles have any bones that she can chew when she needs to? Part of the problem is that they're teething, so they want something to chew on, so you need to give them something: bones, kongs, rope toys, whatever she'll enjoy.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

One of things I failed to mention about Kaylee is her excessive mouthy behavior. She is the mouthiest dog I have ever had. She is not the first GSD we have had either. Since she was a landshark one of the things I made sure to do is figure out games that involve a lot of biting and mouth work. Rather than punish/correct the unwanted behavior we turned it into a good behavior where Kaylee can bite the crap out of something other than her human pack members, lol. 

I did a lot of trial and error to see what motivated her to play. Keep in mind I am 100% capable of doing any kind of physical activity, but my mother is not. She has serious back, hip, and other medical issues that do not allow her to walk far. So the serious play/work games I do and my mother can do fetch and retrieve type games which allows her to sit in the chair. We figured out Kaylee is a ball nut. We went out and got 20 different balls for fetch games. They were different colors and textures to keep it interesting. Then I have my soccer balls (8 of them) I used for the intense games.

Even though we had taught her how to play and what the rules were she STILL would insist on constantly testing and biting and was a relentless brat from 5 months until she was near 7 months old. Keep in mind we had an arsenal of chew toys too. I would take specific bones fill it will peanut butter and put those in the freezer along with other frozen treats to help with the teething process.

Her bad behavior was only displayed here at home and would escalate when she was off lead. So from 5 months on I kept her on a chain lead (short one) to keep my hands off the collar when she would start in. I can grab the lead make a quick firm tug correction and if she refused to stop or be redirected then she was taken out of the environment and put in her crate for 5-10 minutes to calm down. I did not freak out, yell, or show any emotion during the correction or placing her in her crate. If I was frustrated I would walk away and let the dog be because the emotions you project the dog will pick up on it. 

Some times this can be extremely hard to do when the pup is biting and you have gone through all of the tools to redirect them yet it does not work. I have had my moments of extreme frustration. Then it is time to place them in a calm quiet place which was Kaylee's crate. The crate was a happy place filled with special crate only toys. I found removing myself from the situation and doing this worked 80% of the time. Putting her on a lead at all times worked 100% to keep me from getting bit. 

What I found that I was doing wrong was miss reading Kaylee's greeting behaviors. This is where the rank drive comes in. Using the techniques and rank drive I noticed a big difference. Keep in mind she is trained. She knows basic OB and passed her OB class. Leadership & waiting exercises were consistent along with her basic OB training that was done with me. 

Kaylee also knew bite inhibition. When she became demanding to play or seek attention this went out the window and the biting, jumping, lunging was extremely hard and relentless at times. Kaylee was good 90% of the time, but still had her bad relentless biting moments and was a bratty pest who became Cujo when she wanted to get her way. 

What I discovered other family members were not being consistent and were breaking the rules and this caused confusion in the dog. So I made it clear certain people were not allowed to have contact with her and all of the training was done only by me. I decided to use the rank drive and now I have a dog who understands her place and is not confused. She no longer bites to get her way or tests the rules unlike before.

I now have an 8 month old who is dedicated to me. The foundation is the most important thing to have and it must be solid. Before I could not play tug games with her because she would go for the hands or the body not the toy. She would not listen to commands during a tug game. One of my favorite things to do is play tug games with my dogs. Since laying down the rank drive after the first three weeks I tested her to see what would happen during a tug game. She listened to the commands and went for the toy. That is when I knew it worked and we are on the right track. 

Honestly all the time and work I have put in with her has been worth it and I have a much happier dog. I think once the owner figures out what works in time things will improve you just have to push through it and be consistent. Things will get better once you figure it out.


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you have a sound dog, raised properly, it should never come to a physical confrontation where your health and safety are at risk. My dogs are twice as strong as me, so if they set their minds to it I'm not sure I could physically overpower them, but fortunately, they're not going to "turn on me" so I have no need to defend myself from them. There are plenty of ways to asset leadership without needing to physically overpower a dog.


Totally agree, and my post was not to inspire dominance through aggression, merely stating that I personally would not feel confortable owning a dog that I could not physically overpower. People and animals develop mental illnesses all the time, so if something like that happened (and it is very unlikely) I would have to be prepared.

dogs can also develop aggression and whilst it is important to seek behavioural advice if this occurs, I have to consider the possibility of living with such an animal (again unlikely) and what meassures I can put in place to stop the animal causing harm to anyone, including specifically my wife.

I also know of a friend of mine who had a very large and powerful dog (much bigger than a GSD), who was caught in a trap, she tried to help him and in his desperation, he attacked her face and she is now scared for life. unfortunately the dog had to be put down due to its injurys, and im not saying that because I am bigger and stronger than my friend, had I been there the situation would have been different, the story just illustrates that certain situations can make a dog act unpredictably.

I hope noone is put in the position where they have to physically defend themselves or someone else against their dog, but *if* it ever happens to me, I will be prepared for it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It would be hard for the average man, let alone most average women to "win" a physical battle with an 80lb GSD intent on winning. I certainly recall a story where it took a gun to end the fight.

Even the police I train with....its all about building a solid relationship with the dog and more and more I see they argue that getting into a fight or forcing the dog to submit as a way of training is not necessarily the best way. There are other ways to build respect with a dog with bone crushing jaws. Obviously they can't back down if it winds up that way but why take it to that point? [the article I posted from Police K9 Magazine is very much in line with what I have been observing]

I went to a field lab person for help and she was all about compulsion. I went to a police master trainer and he was all about being smarter than the dog and using motivation and reward. She works with labs who are just goofy and don't pull a lot of rank issues. He works with very focused GSDs and Malinois with a lot of REAL fight drive. 

I walked away the day the lab trainer took Beau and cranked down on his prong for a minor infraction. He was only a 9 mo old puppy and he growled at her and she corrected the growling but did not take it further - it was too much for him at that age - a little older and I think he may have gone up the lead at her - I learned after that with the police that there is a certain amount of finesse required for a good prong correction because a really strong one can escalate, not subdue fight drive in the right dog - just as a strong ecollar correction can result in redirection of the worst kind.

What works, works! Good training results in a partnership and not a master/slave relationship I think. Pretty important I would say when those officers' lives may depend on their dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Marc said:


> Totally agree, and my post was not to inspire dominance through aggression, merely stating that I personally* would not feel confortable owning a dog that I could not physically overpowe*r. People and animals develop mental illnesses all the time, so if something like that happened (and it is very unlikely) I would have to be prepared.
> 
> dogs can also develop aggression and whilst it is important to seek behavioural advice if this occurs, I have to consider the possibility of living with such an animal (again unlikely) and what meassures I can put in place to stop the animal causing harm to anyone, including specifically my wife.
> 
> ...


 
How about a son (or daughter)? People also get mentally ill and we parents get older (and weaker!). At some point the kid can beat the "old man" - same with a dog.

Same wit a dog - i would hate to have to fight my own dog seriously (without a handy weapon of some type). Think I would bet on the dog!

BTW, don't assume that you can beat any good size dog - until you have seen a dog fighting for it's life we really don't know our animals!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> until you have seen a dog fighting for it's life we really don't know our animals!


Don't forget that our dogs often go into "fear" mode and to them, every "fight", is a fight for it's life.
Even bathing. I've observed this so many times in rescue; dogs come here who've lived their entire lives outdoors and it's obvious have never been bathed.

You cannot, ever, physically overpower a dog, well, you might at some point be able to but you're going to get severely injured in the process.

My 11lb. Dachshund, muzzled for nail clipping due to his unnatural terror at having his nails done (was probably quicked in the past), can scrape the living daylights out of my husband's arm with his nails and the muzzle. 
People think a muzzled dog can't hurt you!? OH they can hurt you alright! They still hit with their muzzles and try to bite! 

The key is to earn your dog's trust and build that relationship so they never "go nuts" on you.
I don't sit around contemplating if we can overpower our dogs...I have no reason to fear them or they'd never be in my house!

MIND GAMES Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong is a beautiful, simple way of life that enforces that you are the leader and the dog is the follower.
It works for us


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The mind games stuff is very consistent with the police article I think and with every direction we have been taking. I like the checklist. Makes it simple.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

> You cannot, ever, physically overpower a dog, well, you might at some point be able to but you're going to get severely injured in the process.


I agree with this 100% ... and most people do realize ... your full grown adult GSD will be practically impossible to physically overpower *IF *you ever had to - for whatever reason. 


I see one sentence in my post was taken out of context by some. When I said it would be a war and the dog will win. 

From the OPs posts, she's already in a "war" with her puppy, and she is losing ... which is why she posted on here for help. I didn't mean it in a dominance / submissive way, or an alpha way or anything ... maybe I should have used "battle / fights / scraps" or something else. 

What I was trying to say was that she is "losing" whatever it is she is trying to do with her puppy regarding biting while the pup is teething, and going through the "landshark" phase. 

My comment ... "you won't win" stands, especially if she can't get control of it NOW while the pup is young. I'm not saying her dog will attack her, but I am saying that if she thinks she CAN physically over power her puppy as he grows up ... she won't be able to. 

Thanks everyone for the positive comments on my post. In all fairness, I do hope people saw my sentence that read ... credit to the original posters of the ideas (or something like that). I felt bad for the OP because she sounds like she's young and in over her head ... a hard place to be with a demanding / hyper puppy. I read the whole thread a number of times and tried to consolidate everyones ideas into one post. It took me almost an hour to write the post, and I didn't want to go back and start "quoting" every single comment. 

So a big thanks to those that contributed "first!"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Marc
> Totally agree, and my post was not to inspire dominance through aggression, merely stating that* I personally would not feel confortable owning a dog that I could not physically overpower. *


I was replying to Marc...(since you used a quote out of my post)


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I know, and I was agreeing with you!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Of course, with some dogs, if you show them that you are physically superior when they are a little puppy (which generally is the case); then they will remember thios for their entire lives.

Some dogs, of course will not remember that you are superior phsyically or will actually "challenge" you for it as they mature (sort of similar to a young dog growing up and challenging the pack leader).

Those are the only dogs that you have to convince them that you are the alpha being regardless of physical ability.

BTW, there a few dogs that I can even at my age physically overpower! (But not the size/disposition of my GSD!!!!!!!!!)


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

codmaster said:


> How about a son (or daughter)? People also get mentally ill and we parents get older (and weaker!). At some point the kid can beat the "old man" - same with a dog.
> 
> Same wit a dog - i would hate to have to fight my own dog seriously (without a handy weapon of some type). Think I would bet on the dog!
> 
> BTW, don't assume that you can beat any good size dog - until you have seen a dog fighting for it's life we really don't know our animals!





msvette2u said:


> Don't forget that our dogs often go into "fear" mode and to them, every "fight", is a fight for it's life.
> Even bathing. I've observed this so many times in rescue; dogs come here who've lived their entire lives outdoors and it's obvious have never been bathed.
> 
> You cannot, ever, physically overpower a dog, well, you might at some point be able to but you're going to get severely injured in the process.
> ...


I think my comments are getting confused, when I talk about physically overpowering my dog in regards to a confrontation, I am talking about WORST POSSIBLE case scenario in which the relationship between us ends. If my dog bites me as a one off because of something specific (I accidentally hurt her), thats not something I would consider a problem, if my dog bites me for no reason, it would be something I would be cautious of in the future and monitor her behaviour towards me, but again, I could deal with it, if my dog continually shows constant, unending aggression towards me, that I can not soothe, or attacks me with intent to injury, then that is when our relationship ends. 

I am 99.99999999% confident that it will never come down to this now that I know the disposition of my girl, but what I am saying is at the back of my mind, I know in the future, there maybe a situation that is worst case scenario in that I am faced with a situation where I have to physically FIGHT my dog and I know that fight will not end happily and I will get injured and maybe even seriously injured, but at least I know that I will win. That thought at the back of my mind is kind of like a precaution, its not a fear of my dog, more a state of readiness, and preparation of worst case scenario.

This is something that is my own personal choice and I don't like thinking what would happen in that situation, but it is one of the reasons I would never own a larger dog such as a bull mastiff or consider being a big cat handler (which is something that I would really love to do).

All I am saying is that I choose to have a dog in my home and I accept the responsibility that comes with it, and my personal opinion is that it is irresponsible for me to own any animal that would physically outmatch me.

With regards to a family member developing mental illnesses and becoming a threat to me or any other members of my family, yes they would be removed right away, either to a hospital where they could get appropriate medical care in a suitable environment. If they were not mentally ill, and were simply violent people, they would be either in jail, or at the very least out of my house.

Again this is WORST CASE SCENARIO, which has no bearing on my behaviour to my girl, but there are plenty of cases of dogs killing humans, to make me be very cautious when choosing a powerful pet.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Marc said:


> I am 99.99999999% confident that it will never come down to this now that I know the disposition of my girl, but what I am saying is at the back of my mind, I know in the future, there maybe a situation that is worst case scenario in that I am faced with a situation where I have to physically FIGHT my dog and I know that fight will not end happily and I will get injured and maybe even seriously injured, but at least I know that I will win. That thought at the back of my mind is kind of like a precaution, its not a fear of my dog, more a state of readiness, and preparation of worst case scenario.


I am pushing 50 years old. I've had dogs all of my life. I've had as many as (8) eight dogs at a time. I've never, ever had to physically fight any dog I've ever owned. I've never even been aggressively challenged by one of my own dogs. This includes rescue dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the thing that is so frustrating is that the OP thinks she has some kind of mutant terroristic dog .......and it sounds like a perfectly normal GSD puppy. Hopefully its temperament will be strong enough to endure whatever she puts it through.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> That thought at the back of my mind is kind of like a precaution, its not a fear of my dog, more a state of readiness, and preparation of worst case scenario.


It's just never been a concern to me...I mean I've never even thought about it. 
My dogs are 100% trustworthy, none of them go bonkers ever for any reason, so it's never crossed my mind. 

That said, I have heard of situations where people are killed by other animals not their own, or even their own. Is that what has got you thinking about it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> I think the thing that is so frustrating is that the OP thinks she has some kind of mutant terroristic dog .......and it sounds like a perfectly normal GSD puppy. Hopefully its temperament will be strong enough to endure whatever she puts it through.


I so agree!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> I think the thing that is so frustrating is that the OP thinks she has some kind of mutant terroristic dog .......and it sounds like a perfectly normal GSD puppy. Hopefully its temperament will be strong enough to endure whatever she puts it through.


:thumbup:


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I have found this thread helpful. I think I have been letting my pup run a bit wild, so after reading some of the ideas I have cracked down a bit. I have him back on a lead in the house, and I am making sure to spend much more time just working on his basic house manners. Thanks everybody!


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Marc, I kinda know where you're coming from.

Ever since I saw that bit in Tales from the Crypt where they lock the Major in a narrow maze of hallways, starve his dog (a Malinois) for days, and then turn his dog loose in the maze on him...I've always had the TINIEST bit of curiosity over whether or not I could take my dog in a fight. Not that I think it will ever happen, but thanks to a bunch of British horror movie makers, the thought is there.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was actually thinking of "I am Legend" where he has to kill his own dog...


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I am pushing 50 years old. I've had dogs all of my life. I've had as many as (8) eight dogs at a time. I've never, ever had to physically fight any dog I've ever owned. I've never even been aggressively challenged by one of my own dogs. This includes rescue dogs.





msvette2u said:


> It's just never been a concern to me...I mean I've never even thought about it.
> My dogs are 100% trustworthy, none of them go bonkers ever for any reason, so it's never crossed my mind.
> 
> That said, I have heard of situations where people are killed by other animals not their own, or even their own. Is that what has got you thinking about it?


my thinking is more about risk management (I do a lot of that in my job), By owning a dog that is not physically superior to me, I reduce the risk of it seriously injuring myself, or anyone else. having said that the discussion in this thread kinda made me do some research, and I was surprised at the statistics for how many people are killed each year by dogs. I wont go into that because I dont want to cause panic, and again, that was not the reason for my thinking, but if anyone is interested I just googled it.

Im glad that you have all had wonderful relationships with your dogs, and I look forward to the same, but this is my first dog and I think I will always have an attitude of caution when working with any large powerful animal. People are killed by dogs every year, and granted most of them are either young children or elderly, and are usually (but not always) done by breeds other than GSD's but prior to those killings, Im sure a lot of those dogs were happy, family dogs.

Now im sure that the chances of being in that minority are extremely slim, but my wife is no match for a fully grown GSD, and at some point I would like to have children, there is no way I would allow my animal to harm either one of them. To lower that risk, I would never own an animal that I could not physically overpower, that is all im saying


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I wont go into that because I dont want to cause panic, and again, that was not the reason for my thinking, but if anyone is interested I just googled it.


I think this is a topic for another thread...
I believe the deaths due to dogs are a case of owners not understanding their dogs. 
Then again this may fit right into this thread!!

Dog are animals. When people treat them as if they are thinking/rational human beings that's a problem. Dogs have no moral standards (of course the dog should KNOW it a baby and helpless) and are, to the most extent, instinct driven.

Humans create the problems dogs have, unless you have a very rare unsound dog that even with the best handling, will remain unsound.
Again, this thread is a very good example.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LaneyB said:


> I have found this thread helpful. I think I have been letting my pup run a bit wild, so after reading some of the ideas I have cracked down a bit. I have him back on a lead in the house, and I am making sure to spend much more time just working on his basic house manners. Thanks everybody!


Good for you! Even though it may not seem all that necessary when your puppy is young, that is exactly the most important time to begin the foundation of shaping behavior and teaching manners, including impulse control, attention, and engagement. It's more about establishing a relationship than training specific obedience commands, but the more work you put in on that foundation now, the easier everything else will be later because you'll have a framework in place to build upon.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

If anyone cares to know the behaviorist found bubbles to be aggresive. Even though no one believes me. i don't care and I thought I would update those who actually care about the things I have actually said. The reason for the aggresion is because bubbles thinks she is above me and that im to soft and timid with her. 

Most of the trainers use a shock collar and they want to use a shock collar on her. I am having doubts about the shock collar training. I wish people would actually give me help dealing with an aggresive puppy and not just making fun of me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Find a new behaviorist.
No good behaviorist would blame the dog "thinks it's alpha".

Bubbles. I know you can't stand me. BUT in another thread, MIND GAMES was recommended - and it's WORKING.
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Within days.
Do every single thing on the above check-list (at the link) for one entire week solid then come tell us the dog "thinks she is above me" and "I'm too soft/timid with her".

I challenge you!


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I never give bubbles anything for free. I make her sit or laydown for stuff she wants.

I bought her a new dog bed she slept on for one night. I went in to take her out to go potty. She was not on her bed . I went to go touch her bed and she started growling barking and snapping at me.  

I love bubbles . She has no medical issues. I'm so tired of trainers and people from this website. All I wanted was help with the issue i have said and I'm not getting it from anyone. Im tired of people telling me to get a new vet, a new trainer, a new behaviorist . They can all shove it . I have to do something myself. I don't know what but I'll find something.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I think the thing that is so frustrating is that the OP thinks she has some kind of mutant terroristic dog .......and it sounds like a perfectly normal GSD puppy. Hopefully its temperament will be strong enough to endure whatever she puts it through.


I don't think she is a monster she is just being aggresive with me. AND I WANT SOME ONE TO F...... LISTEN!!!! 

Thank you Kaylee for your help I do appreciate it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So are you saying you will not implement these things??

Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!

Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.

Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.

Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!

Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.

At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.

If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!

Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!

Dogs sometimes use urination and defecation to mark their own territories. Some males are particularly persistent about urine marking as many places as possible (some bitches do this as well). I call this “pee-mail”--dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine. Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.

Urine marking is different from regular urination--the dog sniffs something (often a vertical object or a place where another dog has peed), then moves forward a little and sprinkles that place with a few drops of urine.

If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.

Mind Game #4: Patience!

Dogs that are overly pushy and dogs that are too fearful share one important personality trait: they tend to be impatient. They move, act and make decisions too quickly. Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.

First teach your dog to do a down. Then put him on leash, have him do a down and run the leash under your own foot. Leave your dog enough slack to lie comfortably but not enough to be comfortable sitting or standing.

If your dog gets up, just stay quiet and keep pressure on the leash. Let your dog discover how to be comfortable. Your dog will eventually relax and just hang out.

If you do this regularly, your dog will start to relax sooner and sooner.

Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority. As almost every dog could tell you, the best spots to sleep in any house are the furniture and human beds.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog lacks respect for you, prohibit your dog from getting up on the furniture and on your bed. If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving. Don’t be harsh, just firm and matter of fact.

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

If your dog sneaks up on the bed with you after you fall asleep, put him in a crate or shut him out of the bedroom.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog is fearful or anxious, it is important to get your dog out of the bedroom. British trainer John Rogerson has noted that he has never seen a case of separation anxiety in a dog that routinely sleeps outside the bedroom. I have seen a few cases of separation anxiety in dogs that didn’t sleep in the owner’s bedroom but *did* sleep with one or more other dogs. Removing the other dogs did trigger anxiety, so make sure your dog is sleeping in a room alone.

Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!

Dogs can take control of a space by lying in the middle of the traffic pattern or by lying in the doorway. Anxious dogs are trying to prevent their owner from leaving, dogs with leadership ambitions are trying to control their owner’s movement. In dog society, the lesser ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

Don’t ask your dog to move or warn your dog that you are about to make him move. Make it your dog’s responsibility to keep an eye on you and to move as needed to accommodate you.

If you think your dog might bite you, consult a trainer or behaviorist with experience dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP! In the meantime, put a buckle or limited-slip collar on your dog and attach a houseline. Use the houseline to move your dog.

_**************************************************_

_ **** Aticle cut and truncated by ADMIN - Need to limit posts to under 1000 words as per board rules. This article is well over 2000 words - in the future, post a selected quote and link the rest. _


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

You bought a backyard bred puppy who is apparently nervy very young and you're in too deep. You don't know how to deal with her, you're taking advice from all the wrong people. Maybe you'll learn that this is what we meant about dogs from backyard breeders ESPECIALLY with first time dog owners?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Bubbles said:


> I don't think she is a monster she is just being aggresive with me. AND I WANT SOME ONE TO F...... LISTEN!!!!
> 
> Thank you Kaylee for your help I do appreciate it.





> I love bubbles . She has no medical issues. I'm so tired of trainers and people from this website. All I wanted was help with the issue i have said and I'm not getting it from anyone. Im tired of people telling me to get a new vet, a new trainer, a new behaviorist . They can all shove it . I have to do something myself. I don't know what but I'll find something.


Like the many others with plenty of puppy raising experience (including very high drive dogs bred for police service, not as pets) who carefully read your posts and really tried to help you and slowly got increasingly frustrated with your repsonses, I am not sure you are really doing much listening.

And, please, clean up your language.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

VID 20121205 180739 - YouTube
VID 20121203 180432 - YouTube


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I see a playful yet very confused dog :shrug: she is *not* aggressive. Her growling is her "talking" as a way of playing with you. She'd be a good one to get a BIG rope toy and play tug and wrestle.

If the only word or command your repertoire includes is "no", then you need to find a _good_ trainer or give the dog to someone who can assist her in learning what she needs to learn.

If I was closer I'd come assist but unfortunately I am not.

Implement MIND GAMES, and see what happens :shrug:


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Somewhere in the 161 posts I've become a little lost--have you taken her to training? I see basic training mistakes. 

Do not repeat the word more than once. 

Do not become emotional when saying no. In fact, I rarely use no, I prefer to give a command my dog knows to redirect. 

Try practicing "SIT", not "sit down". 

Have a toy on yourself so when she starts wanting to play with the leash, you can engage with the toy. 

Her growling seems to me to be a little bit of a temper that she wants her own way, not that she's aggressive. You need to engage her mind, and find a way to get her physical exercise met. Can you safely hike her somewhere off-leash, or on a long line anyway if she won't stay with you?

I'd have her in at LEAST one obedience class a week from a good trainer, if not twice or three times.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

You have a confused and over stimulated baby on your hands. Too many words, too much background noise and stimulus, and she has no idea what she is supposed to be doing.

Have you sought out a trainer using this resource?:
Dog Trainer Search


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Oh man. NOT aggressive. She's frustrated, hyper, confused and playful. Lots of training mistakes. You talk to her way too much. Please go find a schutzhund club, as suggested before. Don't strap a shock collar on this dog. That trainer is an idiot if they told you she's aggressive and needs one. FIND A CLUB. ASAP. or re home her, as your a bit over your head in training level for this dog. 

Don't keep walking when she's biting the leash. Don't be afraid of her. Yes a bite hurts but it's not THAT bad. And you are way too timid with her. If you don't get this under control your going to have an 80 pound dog walking all over you. Follow ms vettes advice, to a T. Don't skip anything. And call clubs. Right now. Get off GSD forum and look up schutzhund clubs. And call/email all of them tell them it is very important you meet with them ASAP. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm new to raising a gsd, so I certainly don't have as much experience as some of the other posters in this forum, but I'll toss my two cents in after watching the videos. My dog is 12 weeks, suuuper submissive and good tempered, but even he still bites and growls, tugging my shirt or pant legs. It's normal what I've noticed is that he mouths more gently usually, but if he needs to potty or gets overtired they get harder. Is she trying to indicate a need to you, needs to play, chew, eat, poo, nap, etc? How much obedience are you doing with her? I'd work on commands like drop, leave it and off so that she knows what your asking. Simply repeating no means nothing to her. I know you said you couldn't walk fast, but maybe get a long line and play fetch? That way your pup can get a bit more exercise? Just make sure you don't toss farther than the line, but my pup runs around like a crazy dog after his squeak toys while I stand still and toss. 10 or 15 minutes of hard play like that, he's ready to potty and nap and much better behaved. I know our pups seem very different and my suggestions may or may not work for you (or you may be doing this stuff already) but at first the growling my pup did freaked me out a bit, is he aggressive? But when I looked at the overall, he's not, it just took me a little longer to figure out the correlation between what his growls, howls, and whimpers all meant.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I see a dog that needs more training(drop it, leave it, and watch me), more redirection, and more praise when she does something right. No should not be repeated and repeated...instead of no, put the dog in a sit, redirect her by giving her a ball or toy, etc.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

On and sometimes you say no at the wrong times when she actually needed to be praised. Eliminate no from your vocabulary with her for now. Start over with basic obedience. Take treats with you on your walks. Lots of "look" yes! Treat. Etc. the only way she knows how to engage you is to act up. 

You can also give her a toy to carry on her walks. She obv likes things in her mouth. 

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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

Oh, and the sit suggestion is great. I keep treats handy and when he does get out of control we start running through all the commands he knows (its only a fee at this point) but then I redirect after that to a gentler game and the short command session seems to do a reset on his energy level, like he forgets he was going crazy and starts being nice again. If that doesn't work, he's usually overtired, so he gets a Kong in his crate to chill himself.


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

Its hard to see the vids because they are dark for me.

The first one it seemd he didnt want to walk forward on the leash. Heres what I am doing and may or may not help you. I take a hole hot dog and give my dog a small bite to get his attention. Then hold it at my left side and walk with the dog folowing right there biteing little chunks off as a walk straight and fast.

The second one looks like you were trying to tell the dog no teeth at the same time pushing your hand in his mouth. I wouldnt put my hand there if I didnt want him to bite it. Give him a toy or tug with him. Find some tasty food he likes and get him to follow you around. Maybe you can run him a little and burn off some energy.

I think he is confused! He didnt get the right corrections and was not offered a different out come. Just saying no is not going to work.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Alexis, I am sad to hear your frustration.

I am not seeing aggressive, I am seeing an energized young dog who is confused because she is looking to you for direction and all she hears is "No."

I think she has no idea what "no" means, and is desperately trying to get you to engage with her and give her something TO DO.

She has a ton of crazy energy bottled up and nowhere to get rid of it. 


As I type I have Hans on his treadmill and my laptop in my lap.

Why? Because I woke up late, no one in my family bothered to exercise Hans, and when I took him out to poo he got the zoomies and started jumping up on me and trying to use his teeth! He got me a couple of times!
This, from a dog who knows that is not OK and who stopped as soon as I said "OFF!" and turned my back.

He did this because the excess energy makes him antsy. Also because he is 11 months old. He was overenergized and was inviting me to play. "Finally, someone to do something with me! Let's GO!"

After the treadmill, I am going to do some training with him. But he is just too wound up right now and he probably wouldn't be able to focus properly.

These are dogs were originally designed to run after sheep for hours. If we get one and bring it into our lives, we have to find a way to provide a drainage of all that energy, otherwise they will find unpleasant ways to expend it.

I think the best thing you can do is try to find a treadmill somewhere and have Bubbles on that thing at least 30 minutes a day, if not twice a day. I know you have medical issues and her exercise requirements are more than you are able to provide. But there has to be a way she can have them fulfilled or else this will continue.
You don't have to have a dog treadmill. I am thinking a cheap one off Craigslist will work. Anything to get her to be tired, so she can be relaxed in the house and tired enough to do a training session with you without being nuts on adolescent doggie high.

I wish I could help more.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Msvette, the mind games stuff definitely makes sense to me. Very much in line with what our trainer practices.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Bubbles said:


> I don't think she is a monster she is just being aggresive with me. *AND I WANT SOME ONE TO F...... LISTEN!!!! *
> 
> Thank you Kaylee for your help I do appreciate it.


 
*Nice! That ought to do it!*


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Attention training. Go to youtube and search for "the watch me game." Get a targeting stick and start using it. You need to find things for the dog to do to replace behaviors you don't like. 

Just saying "no" over and over and nearly all the time is worthless. She has no idea what you want! I saw her looking to you over and over and getting frustrated because you aren't communicating what you want her to do, just correcting almost constantly.

Again, go to the APDT site and search for a trainer. You both need one. You will both be much happier when you are working with one. 

BTW, we are listening. You have been given solid advice over and over. When will you start listening yourself? A big part of dog training is recognizing that the failings on the human end of the leash are most often the problem. You have to check your ego at the door.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

That dog isn't a bit aggressive. You tell her no for everything, have no bond with her, are not engaging, and aren't redirecting. I can't remember the last time I told my 5 mo old puppy "no". 

If my dog was doing that with the leash, I'd be asking for sits. NOT correcting by saying "no no no". She sits, we start to move again. She bites? We stop, she calms down quietly, another sit and some tug for engagement. Then I'd show the toy and encourage her to run a few steps with me to get the mind off the leash and onto ME (or the toy. XD) then drop it/out and keep walking with the toy under my arm. Repeat as necessary.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The last thing I am going to say is I agree that nonononono means nothing, the puppy still looks normal but confused and frustrated (and I don't have a clue why redirection failed with this little gator dog-looks like the perfect candidate), and that nothing you do is going to work overnight..it requires time and consistency to see results.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Bubbles:


If you want help, then you need to listen.

This is the internet and on almost every thread there will be things I agree with and some I don't. This thread though, with a few exceptions, is remarkable in consistency of advice.

The cumulative number of years of experience with GSDs from many who have advised you is mind boggling and yet you do not hear it.

Your dog does not respect you. You are lacking in some form of leadership skills and since none of us are in your home to witness exactly what is going on, the only thing left is to tell you to get a good trainer or behaviorist.

My guess is that they will tell you something you don't want to hear because it will require effort, and change on your part.

Just loving our dogs is not enough they require time and work to get them where we want.

I really do hope you get the help you need but you will have to put in the time and effort.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I understand what you guys are saying but it was very hard to redirect behavior with a cellphone in one hand a leash and a spray bottle in the other. It was a nightmare to get video. I always walk her at night before feeding. 

maybe i should of posted the videos first . i think im getting better help now. but she does have aggresive behavior which needs to be addressed as well.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

You don't need a spray bottle. You WILL MAKE aggression with that tactic.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Bubbles:
> 
> 
> If you want help, then you need to listen.
> ...


Excellent post.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I did buy a gentle leader and a chain leash . It has improved our walks for now .


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

What are you doing to drain her energy. Can you ride a bike? I take rogue for bike rides. Let her run as fast as she wants. I just go up and down my street so when she's tired I can stop. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GrammaD said:


> Have you sought out a trainer using this resource?:
> Dog Trainer Search


I did - on a previous thread I posted links to 8 different places I found on the APDT Trainer Search page. 

OP, nobody is making fun of you. Everyone IS listening to you, and they're trying to help.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I did - on a previous thread I posted links to 8 different places I found on the APDT Trainer Search page.
> 
> OP, nobody is making fun of you. Everyone IS listening to you, and they're trying to help.


 
I appreciate it. I'm lookng for the right trainer and it does take time. My trust of trainers is about 0 . So many bad trainers I just about to give up and rely on myself.

To everyone else she will not be rehomed.

She goes to the dog park for couple hours playing frisbee and playing with balls. Then we go home. she goes for a walk for 30 minutes. 

I do train her from dawn to dusk. drop it and leave it is stuff she doesn't understand.I normally don't repeat commands. I only repeat no bc it is important but i will stop repeating no. . Sometimes when i say drop it she will drop it then I give her a treat. Most of the time she doesn't comply. even if i offer her hotdogs witch is her favorite treat. But she has puppy ears...  she sits , lays down, stay, shake... everything else on command


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bubbles said:


> I do train her from dawn to dusk. drop it and leave it is stuff she doesn't understand.I normally don't repeat commands. I only repeat no bc it is important but i will stop repeating no. . Sometimes when i say drop it she will drop it then I give her a treat. Most of the time she doesn't comply. even if i offer her hotdogs witch is her favorite treat. But she has puppy ears...  she sits , lays down, stay, shake... everything else on command


For your own sanity teach the commands that she doesn't know. Work on drop it until she has it, work on leave it until she has it. Don't do 10 different commands. One at a time, then slowly add other commands. Do not train from dusk to dawn. Train in short intervals several times a day. She is getting bored and impatient, you have to make it more fun for her. Once you find a trainer don't rely on the trainer to train your dog, the trainer will give you the tools and teach you how to train your own dog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't mean to sound rude, but on your videos you repeated all the "commands" you gave her...."Sit down" "come on"....etc. 

Try a clicker. It works FABULOUSLY for teaching basic stuff, especially leave it. You have to mark the exact moment she turns her head away from whatever, but she will pick up FAST.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

http://www.arizonaschutzhund.com/
http://www.southwestschutzhund.com/sw_clubs.htm
http://www.scottsdaleschutzhundclub.us/
http://www.germanshepherddog.com/clubs/south_western.htm



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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

http://www.gsdcsaz.org/

GSD club. Non schutzhund. 
You can call them and ask for trainer references. 


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Bubbles:

You can do this. There are just some basic things you don't know or understand yet.

I had already raised a bunch of dogs when I got Jack but it had been ten years since I had a puppy and boy had I forgotten things. I called my breeder and got some assistance and from there on it was pretty smooth sailing.

When I was younger I made so many mistakes with dogs it's hard to believe and I'm still learning

I get your anger and frustration but it is not appropriate while you are training your dog.

If you feel overwhelmed at times, tell a friend or vent to someone you trust through PMs on here. When you are in the presence of your dog try to be calm but firm.
If you start to lose it, put your dog up for awhile.

You can do this. Best wishes.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Bubbles:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or you can do what I did when I couldn't get my pup potty trained...lock yourself in your room and scream into the pillow


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Finding the right trainer is the most important thing. I was in your shoes 5 months ago, I thought I had a legit monster on my hands. Was enrolled in classes then had the trainer tell me I pretty much had a train wreck in the making and she was very aggressive. I finished out the class, did some homework and found a schutzhund club. Even if you don't plan to compete, it's a great training experience. 

I learned that my "aggressive" puppy was frustrated with how I was training her and had no idea how to express herself. Since I've changed my methods and interactions. with her in general, she's done a complete one eighty and we have an amazing bond and respect for one another. I know sometimes its hard to look in the mirror and see yourself as the problem but changing things up will make all the difference in the world. Replace the spray bottle with a good tug or ball on a string, focus on the positives and enjoy the puppy. It's true when they say energy travels down the leash, if she's pushing your buttons or getting on your last nerve walk away and try again later.

I wish you the best of luck. Feel free to PM me if you ever need to vent.


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