# Meeting new pups in 5 days! ADVICE PLEASE!



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks to the members of this forum for the wide variety of high-quality information for german shepherd lovers/owners/new owners. We have been waiting for our new pups since Feb. and have been reading the threads in this forum, trying to learn as much as possible in preparation for our puppies. 
I appreciate the candor of the forum's members. We decided to welcome two male GSD puppies (litter mates) prior to reading the reams of information advising to the contrary. With that being said, we remain committed to raising well-adjusted, independent GSD's who happen to be litter mates (sometimes ignorance is bliss).
Classes will be frequent and on-going. They will be separate in order for the pups to learn to become confident as individuals. THIS IS OUR PLAN. 
I'm sure many on this forum are shaking your heads as you read this, thinking how naive we must be…and we are….but we are committed. We are meeting our pups next Wednesday and bringing them home in three weeks.
My first (of many) questions: Do you have any words of wisdom regarding choosing our pups? Our breeder told us he is pretty sure which pups we will choose but wants us to make the decision. He will be performing temperament testing the day before we arrive and will provide that info for us. We are aiming for search and rescue training for our dogs. I know we want pups with high play drive and lower prey drive. Should we aim for one pup who is clearly more dominant than the other…or should we choose similar personalities? Feel free to blast away….critique, etc. All constructive, well-intentioned responses are greatly appreciated. Pictures will follow soon. Thanks in advance!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, best wishes in getting what you want with two males growing up together. The breeder should be the one to match them for better compatibility. Nothing you see in a window of time will tell you anything that the breeder doesn't already know. If your breeder is responsible it _may_ work. But most responsible breeders would not agree to littermates going to the same home unless they were going to be worked in sport or competitive type trainining and the handler(s)being fairly experienced.
I wouldn't want a dominant or overly submissive pup...middle of the road on both would work better for a pet home.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thank you for your response. My husband and I share the "failure is not an option" philosophy and are committed to providing an environment for litter mates to thrive/grow/prosper. Historically, we have had rescues (GSD's) with great success. My background is medicine, specifically neonatal intensive care so have been a student of human growth and development for > 30 years…..fascinating to me to compare/contrast human vs canine developmental milestones…strength and weaknesses. This is indeed, a humbling experience and stimulates me to bring my best efforts to this challenge.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I can't believe a responsible breeder would ever allow two littermates to go to the same home. Especially what sounds like a regular pet home. 

I don't think there's anything anyone can really say to help you choose the right puppies other than don't do it. You said you're committed, but what does that mean? You've got deposits down? Take the loss if that's the case. Probably not what you want to hear, but it's probably the best advice anyone can give when thinking about bringing two home at once.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Jake and Elwood--Welcome to the forum! There is a lot of good information here and I know it has really helped me. My GSD puppy will be six months old tomorrow. I have lots of dog experience, but I can honestly say that raising a GSD puppy is a whole new level of puppyhood. 

I have never put so much energy, time, and money into a dog (and I have had an Old English Sheepdog in full coat for AKC conformation). My GSD is way too smart for his own good. It is like having a human baby, except that I can crate him.

Two German Shepherd puppies may start out easy, but they do not let you forget that you are raising a GSD. Best of luck, whatever you decide!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Committed means I've changed jobs in order to have more time for the pups…it means we've spent > $$ 50,000 preparing our home (fencing for our property, an RV for traveling with our pups, etc). dog doors, crates, trainers, etc. When i say we are committed I mean it. This certainly doesn't guarantee success. My husband and I live lifestyles of sacrificing sleep for "the overall good" so we are well prepared for the sacrifices required for this challenge…obviously doesn't guarantee success. We will go down fighting for our pups if that's what it takes….but we are committed. 

Thanks Moriah! Time will tell.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Has ANY GSD owner ever had a successful experience with litter mates? (I work with two GSD owners with awesome littermate success stories so just wondering about the experience of the members of this forum).


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Raising two gsd pups isn't impossible. It's just hard work. If they are low/medium energy pet dogs then that will help. 

I get a pup because I want to mold it my way. I also get a pup so I can enjoy the puppy stuff. Getting two at once can be so much work that you don't really have the time to enjoy the pups. It can literally become a job. 

I'm saying this assuming you got two well bred pups. Get two byb possibly nervy/possibly unhealthy dogs and you might regret your decision big time.


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

My awesome dog/son was adopted. The former owners surrended him to a rescue shelter. They told me that the story was "he would get to big". I am so glad we got him. He was isolated due to"agressive actions" For an entire year! He was so open when we brought him home and so eager to finally run free(8.9acres). Hard headed but always thinking trying to anticipate what we want from him. A very easy learner just has his "joke" times too. Have a great time with your pups. May find they learn better,who knows.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Committed means I've changed jobs in order to have more time for the pups…it means we've spent > $$ 50,000 preparing our home (fencing for our property, an RV for traveling with our pups, etc). dog doors, crates, *trainers*, etc. When i say we are committed I mean it. This certainly doesn't guarantee success. My husband and I live lifestyles of sacrificing sleep for "the overall good" so we are well prepared for the sacrifices required for this challenge…obviously doesn't guarantee success. We will go down fighting for our pups if that's what it takes….but we are committed.


The most important item on your list is TRAINER. While I admire your enthusiasm, your career in neonatal and your RV do not mean a thing when raising two puppies together. 

Training....Yes, this can be done. In my opinion, your biggest hurdle will be having the dogs bond with YOU and not each other. I saw a couple raising two litter mates and it was a disaster. The dogs were so bonded to each other they would have melt downs when separated. If another dog can near the two, the one would attack. 

So, IMO, what you need to do is make sure both you and your husband are working each dog independently. These puppies are going to bond with whoever trains them. If you want a balanced home, you will have to train each puppy which means double the work for both of you. You are going to have to work on pack drive to make your household work smoothly.

Good luck and have fun! You are going to have a very busy next two years!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Hi there. I'm not going to comment about getting two pups at the same time, other than saying that I could not handle it. There are some issues here though. How committed are you to SAR work? Have you found a group or team to work with? SAR takes another huge HUGE commitment. All I do now is work (need $ or I would not bother) and SAR and exercise my dog these days... that is it, honestly. Here is the deal though... a SAR dog ideally has high drives (prey, hunt, play), is independent, and has a great bond with the handler. The high drives doesn't make them easy to live with and requires an extra level of proficiency in training. The higher the drive the less room for inconsistency and precision in handler skills. Most SAR organizations would not let you handle two dogs as a novice. So I think it would look like each of you have a dog, the dogs spend a lot of time separated (which is going to be hard for anyone to do because we anthropomorphize so much), each of you spend a lot of time training independent of the other. Each of you are ready for the other to have the "better" dog. I'm not sure what that would mean but I think it could happen... the better SAR dog.

I would talk to SAR folks first before you commit to two dogs or even to this litter, if you are really serious about SAR. Your plan is certainly not impossible but I would think initially you would need to treat them as working pups and keep them separate a lot. 

Kind of a rambling message before my first cup of coffee before I head out for a weekend of SAR training.

Best


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I completely missed the SAR part. I thought these were pets only. If that is the case, I would rethink this particular breeder all together. Go join a SAR team and learn more about the dogs and what is required. Find a breeder who has dogs working SAR so you know they have the hunt drive to succeed in their job. And, with a good breeder, they will pick the puppies for you.

AND ignore everything I said about training (applies to pets) and go with what Karin said.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

DutchKarin said:


> Hi there. I'm not going to comment about getting two pups at the same time, other than saying that I could not handle it. There are some issues here though. How committed are you to SAR work? Have you found a group or team to work with? SAR takes another huge HUGE commitment. All I do now is work (need $ or I would not bother) and SAR and exercise my dog these days... that is it, honestly. Here is the deal though... a SAR dog ideally has high drives (prey, hunt, play), is independent, and has a great bond with the handler. The high drives doesn't make them easy to live with and requires an extra level of proficiency in training. The higher the drive the less room for inconsistency and precision in handler skills. Most SAR organizations would not let you handle two dogs as a novice. So I think it would look like each of you have a dog, the dogs spend a lot of time separated (which is going to be hard for anyone to do because we anthropomorphize so much), each of you spend a lot of time training independent of the other. Each of you are ready for the other to have the "better" dog. I'm not sure what that would mean but I think it could happen... the better SAR dog.
> 
> I would talk to SAR folks first before you commit to two dogs or even to this litter, if you are really serious about SAR. Your plan is certainly not impossible but I would think initially you would need to treat them as working pups and keep them separate a lot.
> 
> ...


They also generally don't want first-time handlers picking a pup without their input- novice handlers don't know what to look for in terms of drive and temperament, often don't know what to look for in a breeder, etc. You don't just get a puppy and go to an SAR meeting and join up. Around here, you're dog-free working with the SAR group for a LONG time before they will even consider letting you train and certify a dog. Will you have the time to be actively involved with your SAR group (a huge commitment) without the dogs for months or more? On top of training two puppies? What if the puppies are not suitable for work? Not just "any" dog can do this.

Bear in mind, SAR organizations get dozens or more inquiries from people who say, "I just got a puppy and I want to do SAR!" It's really not a good way to start. The chances of this breeding being appropriate for work are slim (sorry, but breeders producing working dogs usually aren't going to let littermates go to the same home), so if SAR is your goal.. hold off. All that prep work you did and all that commitment will still be there when you find a dog suitable for your goals.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

We expected the breeder/trainer to refuse our request for two pups and were surprised at his optimism and encouragement. We understand we must each train each puppy/dog and we understand we must each train both puppies together. We also understand our lives are about to change drastically and life as we knew it will not exist…at least for the next 3 or 4 years. And, I realize as I type this message, if I were reading it I would also think we were nuts for attempting this….and perhaps we are.
Regarding SARS, we understand it is a huge, life-long commitment and that these pups may or may not be acceptable for SARS. We have contacted a SARS group in our area and will begin volunteering with them this month (without our pups). So, in addition to the work we will do with our pups we will also begin our own SARS work. However, my understanding of the best temperament for SARS dogs was high play and lower prey drive. Sounds like that may not be the case after reading Karin's post. I will contact the local SARS members and ask for their input into preferred temperament/drive for SARS pups. Thanks all for helpful suggestions. I'm actually starting to break out in a cold sweat regarding the litter mates at this point…..we don't have them yet.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

While clearly it's not impossible to raise 2 pups, it's infinitely harder to do something that is, frankly (and in my opinion  ) crazy hard anyways. I have raised 5 puppies up to this point, 4 of them GSD's and, let me tell you for sure, raising a gsd pups (from working lines anyways) was WAY harder then raising my non-gsd.

What makes them such smart, high energy and wonderful dogs is EXACTLY what make them much more of a challenge to raise. They need WAY more time, WAY more exercise, WAY WAY WAY WAY more socialization OUTSIDE THE HOME, and real official dog classes training with a qualified and experienced trainer.

So the time and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is alot for just the one puppy let alone with 2. 

So the fact that when I get just one new puppy I know my life will be absolutely changed for the next year or so with no real vacations. Finding weekly classes. Knowing that my Saturdays are puppy days I have to write on the calendar reserved for hiking/socialization. Maggieroselee - YouTube

My friend Sue lives in the area and we try to meet up weekly for a puppy play date and were in puppy classes together and we are EXHAUSTED after a meetup and almost always comment 'thank goodness we only have one puppy!' And we both (theoretically  ) know what we've doing. 










BUT if you can't give up your dream of getting 2 puppies at once, and if you DID get a great breeder............ then you need to 'use' them and their knowledge experience with their dogs. 

Once their puppy testing is done, and if they know which pup(s) they are recommending after living with the litter for 7+ weeks...

USE THAT KNOWLEDGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Do not even consider any other puppies in the litter other than what is recommended! If the breeder narrows it down to 3, then just look at those 3, listen to what/why they are recommending them, and go with what they are saying!!! Even better if they figured out the perfect 2 cause then it's a done deal.

Good luck with whatever you decided and we can't wait to see pictures and hear updates. Love love love that you are contacting your local SAR group because being proactive and having someplace to go for feedback and help with other classes/training is key. All training is NOT the same and if you have to go to a few to find the best, then that's certainly what I've been doing thru the years.

Plus make sure your mental picture of puppy training is along these lines ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

:thumbup:


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for the words of encouragement (and that absolutely gorgeous photo)! 
It has taken us 7 years after the loss of our dog to cancer (Shepherd mix) to feel ready for this new adventure. We are at a place in our lives where we finally have the time (and resources and motivation) to be puppy parents again. I just emailed one of our local SARS team members for her input/advice. This will be a daily challenge and I am extremely grateful for all the expertise of the members of this forum.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

DutchKarin said:


> Hi there. I'm not going to comment about getting two pups at the same time, other than saying that I could not handle it. There are some issues here though. How committed are you to SAR work? Have you found a group or team to work with? SAR takes another huge HUGE commitment. All I do now is work (need $ or I would not bother) and SAR and exercise my dog these days... that is it, honestly. Here is the deal though... a SAR dog ideally has high drives (prey, hunt, play), is independent, and has a great bond with the handler. The high drives doesn't make them easy to live with and requires an extra level of proficiency in training. The higher the drive the less room for inconsistency and precision in handler skills. Most SAR organizations would not let you handle two dogs as a novice. So I think it would look like each of you have a dog, the dogs spend a lot of time separated (which is going to be hard for anyone to do because we anthropomorphize so much), each of you spend a lot of time training independent of the other. Each of you are ready for the other to have the "better" dog. I'm not sure what that would mean but I think it could happen... the better SAR dog.
> 
> I would talk to SAR folks first before you commit to two dogs or even to this litter, if you are really serious about SAR. Your plan is certainly not impossible but I would think initially you would need to treat them as working pups and keep them separate a lot.
> 
> ...



Yes, YES. 

Also, as someone else mentioned, most SAR teams have some connections with breeders that have produced what they want. Very rarely do they accept just any dog. 

Additionally, if you have not become a certified member of your SAR team, I would suggest you and your DH do that first, which, depending on the team, can take 6 months or longer. There is a lot to learn about SAR, even if you think you're already savvy about it, and trying to learn how to be a SAR dog handler as well as navigation, (all the different components), first aid, evacuation, helio skills, transport, etc...you're asking for a breakdown. 

Of course, if you're already there, then you would know this about the pups coming from certain breeders. I wish you well, regardless, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

would you post a pedigree ?

several points I will try to address , as a breeder , as a person who has put dozens of dogs into certified SAR , including RCMP , Avalanche , Urban disaster , Wilderness
and international response teams.

Not a promo - just lending some credibility to what will follow. 

Ideally the breeder should have some track record themselves for successfully breeding , or selecting for the purpose. This means recommending another breeder , or litter, or dog which is available that they have seen and tested.

Usually a successful SAR team has a handler that has had a few dogs , has learned how to socialize them properly , how to build on instinctive drives , how to read the dog , and be prepared to accept that the candidate they have isn't quite there and won't certify.
Very very difficult for the first time owner , first time basic trainer . More difficult to manage and properly develop two littermates in the same household.

Many people look at SAR as "something" , an activity, beneficial for the dog . SAR is not recreational. You want to do that , then participate in Tracking and get titles , Nose work , or friendly hide and seek games which simulate SAR and are fun !

Find out who certifies your group, who they report to or are responsible to , whether they have had call outs , otherwise it is a bunch of people getting together playing at a different level of "war games" -- fun.

There is nothing at all wrong with that !! I know people that organize scavenger hunts for the dogs to find things .
It is friendly competition with a bbq at the end of the day .
Social event for the people and the dogs .

No big life or death seriousness.

A good SAR group is a tightly run , professionally minded organization.

OP said "We decided to welcome two male GSD puppies (litter mates) prior to reading the reams of information advising to the contrary"
That is pet-thinking . Easy for the breeder . 
Two pups , littermates , at the same time. I wouldn't let that happen . Not in the best interest of the dogs even , because neither develops to the best of their potential. 

IF the pups are 5 weeks old (you are bringing them home in 3 weeks so just quessing) there is no way that the breeder can know or decide which two are best for you (yet) and certainly not for SAR work as they are too young to exhibit the traits. Unless the breeder has long association and familiarity with their particular lines. That happens over generations. 

OP said "I know we want pups with high play drive and lower prey drive." YOU do want high prey drive . High HUNT/SEARCH drive . At the same time you want a dog who works in that drive , at that level, and is focused and in self control . 

Dog doors -- so the dog can come and go at whim , so the dog has no need of you other than to put down the food and keep the water fresh . 

The two dogs will squirt in and out of that door all day long.

So where does your management and resource control come in?

Some SAR groups require that there be no other "pets" in the house, no other canines at least. Same goes for specialized therapy or guide dogs .


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Understand. We realize these pups will more than likely NOT be ideal for SARS work. First, we have to work on getting ourselves trained. We are also looking down the road to a time when we may bring a 3rd GSD into our home (in about 4 years). At that time we will seek out a breeder recommended by our SARS team. We are just beginning this walk down a long path to SARS. But everyone has to start somewhere…right? Thanks to all for your warranted concern about our situation as well as your excellent suggestions/advice. Our number one priority is to raise two happy, healthy, independent, well adjusted, well socialized, well trained puppies. Everything else is secondary.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as long as you know your priorities .
A third GSD , and that one is the SAR --- ??

If you are serious about SAR -- choose ONE dog from a litter / breeder who can give you the best candidate and cut your teeth with that .


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Understand. We realize these pups will more than likely NOT be ideal for SARS work. First, we have to work on getting ourselves trained. We are also looking down the road to a time when we may bring a 3rd GSD into our home (in about 4 years).


You are doing so much right that I hate to rain on your parade.......

NO MATTER WHO WE ARE and what we know, we learn and do better with the NEXT puppy we get.

So if you really feel you'd love to do SAR (which is great) then that's another reason to ONLY get the one puppy FOR NOW!!! 

I have 3 dogs, and will probably always have 2 or 3 dogs, so don't think it's to do with the number of dogs that everyone is concerned with. 

It's really the fact getting TWO the same age as puppies that all of us with experience with the breed and TRAINING the breed are trying to give you the heads up for. 

And while I am concerned for you and your husband losing your minds :wild: , it's really more about the puppy. 

Raising one is SO HARD. But you are so lucky cause there are TWO motivated humans in the house. With you being able to double team a single pup you can really just end up with such a fantastic pup. You'd be sure to have the time to focus on it to make it so 'practically perfect' and learn so much while you raise and train and see how it's also working with the SAR team

So that way, in a few years (my dogs are purposely about 5 yrs apart but you could have a lesser split  ) AFTER you've been able to spoil/love/raise/train your single perfect pup, you'll have such a MUCH better idea of what you want with your next. Go back to the same breeder? Great. Find a different breeder? Great. Find different trainers/clubs/classes? Great. 

Bail on SAR and do agility? BEST OF ALL  






Truthfully, if I was your breeder and giving you 2 puppies, I'd give you 2 laid back pups so you don't lose your minds. As a breeder I want MY DOGS to be happy in the home and to have that work out, more laid back puppies would fit the bill.

But if I was only giving you one then I'd give you the more high drive and motivated pup that would do best in SAR (and agility). But that's me.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Yes……3rd dog will probably be first real SAR candidate….and will seek out breeder with hx of successful SAR dogs (may be contacting you at that time). In the interim, we will be working on our own training and will be working on raising our two "pet quality" GSD's.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I am not thin skinned and you are NOT raining on my parade. Honestly, your candor is just what I need (and I'm grateful). My husband is not willing to budge on the "two puppy" plan at this time. I initially thought it was a good idea but the more I learn, the more I realize it will require defying the odds to make it work. I have remained optimistic that we could manage two pups, and manage SAR training and maybe even end up with one or both of these pups as SAR dogs. However, I do realize that is unlikely. Perhaps we would do better to choose laid back pups as you suggested and then work towards a SAR pup in a few years. I think that's a safer and healthier plan for the two pups. I'll also have one last discussion with my SO regarding the "two pup" plan. Thanks again for your words of wisdom.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Oh…and I enjoyed the agility video! Thanks for sharing. We definitely plan to include agility in our pups' activities…even if it's just for fun. Hubby already started building a puppy agility course so we can get them started early.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

What's the reason for two at once? So they can play with each other and not be bored? I honestly can't think of a good valid reason to get two at once. 

If you don't have a time consuming career or huge social life then it can be done. I mean you gotta do something with your free time right? If you do have one or the other than the dogs will be the ones who suffer. 

Also it's easy to be motivated now. Not so much when they take turns screaming at the top of their lungs in the middle of the night.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'll just toss this in J&E, not trying to convince you either way. My wife and I raised two puppies together, they were two of the best behaved, happy, content, dogs we've owned. One for me, one for her, but we did everything together and it was a lot of fun.

I know they werent littermates, two diifferent breeds too. Two puppies may not be ideal for all the reasons everyone is saying and the whole SAR thing,,,,,,, But I bet you guys can enjoy it all and have as much fun as we did as long as its something you BOTH want.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

totally agree "You are doing so much right that I hate to rain on your parade.......







"

I know . Here is something else to think about . It benefits the dog(s) and it benefits you .

We don't know the breeder , we don't know the lines. They may be totally unsuitable for your plans . 

At one time you said " We will go down fighting for our pups if that's what it takes" to an almost resigned acceptance about the SAR this time around -- but - hey- the 3rd one , yes.

Choose something , a goal , even if it is an AKC obedience title CD, CDX, UD , tracking , nose works , anything which has a standard by which to be judged. See if you have the commitment to do that . SAR requires much much more. If you can't do the minimal , if it is distasteful or too difficult the more difficult endeavors will never be achieved.
SAR people are well meaning and high minded - much admiration for the people that do participate and make a difference.

They don't have the time or resources or places to involve a team that doesn't have that fire-in-the-belly at the outset and keep it no matter what challenges come up.
Dogs can be washed out at any time .

So what I was going to ask you to think about is get one dog now. Whet you skills and understanding of the dog in training .
Two years down the road get another one . Other line, other breeder . Feel the difference . Get the experience.

Each time ask specifically for a dog that at least has half a chance of being successful. 

No one knows the lines or the breeder of your current choices. People may have a look and ---- ack --- back yard breeder . Or people may look and know the genetics aren't suitable for what ever reason . 

Eventually if you do have a 3 rd dog your experience horizon's will have been expanded and you will have a much better base upon which to make a good decision .

Two from the same litter is limiting that experience.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if this is a breeder who breeds for working ability they would not be doing a singular "temperament test" a few days before the pups head out to new homes.

That sounds like the formatted volhard test .

A working breeder would be involved with the pups , pre-stressing, giving little challenges and monitoring the pups responses. This on-going from the time the pups are entering the social phase 5 weeks and on .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Oh…and I enjoyed the agility video! Thanks for sharing. We definitely plan to include agility in our pups' activities…even if it's just for fun. Hubby already started building a puppy agility course so we can get them started early.


STOP!!!! SLOW DOWN!!!

In order to do agility, you need the obedience. AND, most importantly, puppies should not be stressing their joints on a high impact activity like agility. 

Agility is so much fun. But there is more to it. Find a trainer, lay the foundation and THEN build the course when they are ready for it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Has ANY GSD owner ever had a successful experience with litter mates? (I work with two GSD owners with awesome littermate success stories so just wondering about the experience of the members of this forum).



Yes. I raised two litter mate working line males and their sister as well. 


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Relax Jax! When I say puppy agility course, I mean stepping over low bars and zooming through little tunnels…maybe walking over low inverted V's, etc…nothing that will stress their joints at all. Our pups will not be traversing stairs for several months. We are in tune with their fragile joints. We just know we have to keep their little brains engaged, as well as their bodies.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Easy answer….our instincts tell us they would enjoy having a sibling in their life. WE understand the need to train separately. We both work in "life and death" job environments so understand the implications (probably more than most). We've never had the luxury of a protected night's sleep or a protected weekend off. We understand the word "sacrifice" and are willing to do whatever necessary to make sure these pups are well adjusted and happy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Relax Jax!


That's pretty rude.

You have it all figured out. Have at it.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Easy answer….our instincts tell us they would enjoy having a sibling in their life.



Our instincts and dog instincts are not the same. Dogs do not benefit from remaining with their siblings for life...and in many cases it can become an issue at maturity.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> Our instincts and dog instincts are not the same. Dogs do not benefit from remaining with their siblings for life...and in many cases it can become an issue at maturity.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yep. Anthropomorphizing does nothing for anyone here. Dogs don't look at "siblings" with emotional attachment the way humans do. Especially siblings of the same sex.... There's a reason people say not to do it...not just that they're not listening to instinct. That phrase alone says you really didn't read all the threads about getting litter-mates, littermate syndrome, etc. Or that you think you know more than all of the very experienced people telling you it's a bad idea. 

There's nothing tying you to two pups. You've said before that you're apprehensive, and you should be. The examples you have given for why you're so prepared for two speak to how little prepared you really are for what you're about to experience...RV's and doggie doors and careers in medicine don't mean anything in terms of this. Your interest in canine compared to human development would still be served with one puppy. Most of the vey experienced people here wouldn't touch owning siblings with a ten foot pole- there's a reason for that. 

Don't make a decision like this based on emotion. You say you know two success stories, but people have a really sliding scale of success. Is success two thriving, well trained, well adjusted adults? Is it two dogs who have managed not to kill each other? Is it two dogs who are out of control (and let's be honest, most "Joe Schmoe" owners have dogs with really sub-par obedience and that's enough for them to get by)?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Go get to know and talk to a SAR group. My littermates came from a SAR handler who was also a breeder. Both the sire and dam were working SAR dogs. My trainer (also the 4-H trainer for my kids) was also on the SAR team. I think you will find "real world" advice much different from what you get on this board.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is real good advice right here on this thread.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

all I can say is good luck.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree. I'm part of a very rigorous, highly trained SAR team here in Spokane and I find the SAR advice to be spot on. I also think it's super fun-- and we're going to Nelson BC this fall for a big conference/training. It's a huge commitment though and to be a dog handler is an investment; $3-5,000 the first year alone and probably almost close after if you go to conferences and trainings every weekend. 

Of course, it all depends on the SAR team and the physical terrain challenges are different in different parts of the country. Some SAR teams are more trained/active than others.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thank you.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Sorry if comment was interpreted as rude…..definitely not intended that way…just trying to reassure I understand need to limit stress on their joints until they are older/more mature.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

How often is your SAR team called upon to assist with search and rescue (if you don't mind sharing)? I realize the dedication/$$/time commitment required to train to a level of proficiency.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I get a page about three times a week. Sometimes five. I don't clearly go on every single one because I have a job that right now I work 60 hours a week at. I do go on at least one or two a weekend. I am not a dog handler even though my dog evaluated with flying colors and they urged me to do it. I decided not to because of that commitment financially and timewise. They use the dog teams all the freaking time. It's a really big commitment.

I'm also missing work the weekend of the 15th through the 17th to go for an all team training up by Sullivan Lake (WA). If you Google map or actually Google Earth the area you will see what kind of terrain we have. We will assist in Coeur d'Alene and even into Montana. We go over to the west side in the Cascades and help there as well. I have not gone to the Cascades because of time right now with my job but I will this winter when I'm not working. That is some major search and rescue over there! But we have some decent elevation and very thickly forested coniferous terrain. 

Is not for the faint of heart I can tell you that. And although anybody can go through the Academy and train for six months and test, you have to pass so many tests, physically and navigationally. And if you can't physically keep up, they don't page you. One of the gals was griping that they played favorites but it really boils down to are you an asset or are you a liability?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's the deal. You have no experience, and you think that reading equals knowledge. 

Here's an example... 

You say you realize the dedication, money and commitment required to do SAR, but in reality, you can't. 

There are many knowledgeable, experienced people trying to save you from making a potential mistake. Steve made it work, but he's an experienced trainer. Someone else made it work, but only at the pet level, not as working dogs. 

You say failure isn't an option, and I appreciate your commitment, but success may not be a possibility. 

I see no valid reason to get 2 puppies instead of 1 unless you are a trainer / broker and that is your business. 

Why make an emotional decision instead of being logical? 

David Winners


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Also my dog has excellent rocksolid basic obedience. I still would've had to do all of the specific training for him. But I didn't have to do any regular obedience training and he doesn't chase game because I have worked hard on that (he is a major backpacking dog with me so he's used to all sorts of terrain and issues ). Even so, the time commitment and the financial commitment was so big I just can't do it right now (I also have three teenagers one the oldest which just graduated high school and my other two are in high school still ). Someday down the road if I choose to be a dog handler instead of a regular what we call ground pounder, it will be with the specific dog bred with that in mind. Even then it's a crapshoot of whether the dog will work out or not.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Why make an emotional decision instead of being logical?
> 
> David Winners


Oh goodness... If I'd made the logical decisions rather than the emotional ones I would never have had children or dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you are really interested look into a seminar , PRECISION SEARCH DOG - About
or get the book , or read the blogs


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

This thread has been a great read, from the SAR standpoint (I'm pretty sure it's "SAR" op, not "SARS"...I think that's a kind of pandemic ;-)). 

Winners, Rocket dog, Loveecho, etc...Have given some awesome input on SAR training, that I've enjoyed reading.

I'm gaining a new found respect for SAR teams. I'm also learning that (through real life and reading), there is a spectrum of SAR teams. Carm touched on this, the teams that seem to go out for fun and the ones that look at it as a serious profession. I think the ones that do it for "fun" or treat it like a game/club thing, give those that are serious a bad rap. It also seems that, "in-training-for-SAR" is starting to being sold as "SAR dog." Further muddying the definition of "SAR dog" and the work that more serious teams like DutchKarin and Rocketdog seem to be on, are accomplished in.

OP, I agree with LOVE Echo, you keep touching on how you're in some kind of medical profession, like that gives you some kind of insight to any of this. I can't tell you enough that couldn't be further from the truth. It's pretty easy to quickly read between the lines when someone comes on with goals, dreams, and ambitions. It's kind of like that expression, "my eyes were bigger than my stomach." Or whatever....

Many questioned the breeding and breeder, because most "reputable" working dog breeders (actually working their own dogs), would never place litter mates together. The thought process from there is, are the dogs really from a reputable breeder, that tests, works, health certs, etc their dogs. If not, then not only are you setting yourself up for the challenge of two pups, you're also potentially doing it with dogs that may not have the strongest genetics.

You can spend all the money in the world on RVs and doggy doors (???), but most of the challenges those around here are warning you about have nothing to do with the things you listed.

Anyway, it's been a good read. Good luck, OP. I truly do hope you're successful, for the dogs sake. I personally don't think it'd be fun to have two dogs more strongly bonded to each than me. I want to be the one they look to for fun, obedience, food, etc...It makes training and life, so much more pleasant. Plus I hate separation anxiety, which seems to prevail in these situations.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good post dani (and others).

Ok, I'm not going to try and talk you out of two puppies, but I'll tell you this..All of my dogs over the years, (and it's quite a few , more than what's listed in my signature), came as puppies..While some can do multiple puppies, there was never a desire for me to do so.

I want to fully bond to that one puppy , I want to be the center of the universe for that puppy. Having had adult dogs (sometimes up to 3) when I brought in another puppy has never been an issue with that puppy bonding to those adult dogs more than myself. 

I didn't do anything different, like isolate from adults, I just put alot of time into that 'one' puppy . 

Having 'two' would drive me bonkers, double the time, and just not enough hours in the day. 

I looked in SAR with my current female, and honestly, I would have loved to do it, but the committment was way more than I could possibly do, to do it seriously, and I took it very seriously. 

I agree with Dani, the 'prep' is nothing, it sounds great and all peachy keen before it actually happens..With 1 puppy, heck those 2 am/3am potty breaks are a pain, with two, well 1 may have to go at 2 am, the other maybe 2:30 am, get my meaning? 

Double trouble, double poop, double everything.. 

The worst thing for me , having two dogs close in age, is losing them when they get old. I have lost 3, yes 3 , sets of two dogs within months of each other..It's not only heartbreaking, it's devastating. I swore to not go thru this again..I lost one in January, and another in May..My female is now 6 years old, and I just got another..6 years for me is a good age difference..

Just my perspective


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## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

How long has it been since you've raised a puppy? The reason I ask is for me it was 11 years ... and was I ever in for a rude awakening! Oh my. There are 3 of us all sharing in it & all 3 of us said "Last. Puppy. EVER!"  (probably ... ok, definitely, not true but whew! Sometimes I really really mean it.) I love Garrison with all my heart but he is a lot of work all the time. I can NOT imagine this times 2! I wish you the best of luck (sincerely) if you do indeed take 2 puppies. But as for me personally, you couldn't pay me to get into that situation. :wild:


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Based on the majority of the feedback, it's clear I've offended SAR team members by presuming we might have "what it takes" and are interested in pursuing SAR training. No, we do not have any experience with search and rescue but we bring a lot of core skills to this endeavor (skills you haven't bothered asking about…just making assumptions). We both have strong backgrounds in a variety of terrain navigation scenarios as well as cold weather survival. We have radio skills/experience, we both have years of helicopter experience (no…not with dogs); we are athletic, healthy with plenty of stamina. And mostly, we have a desire to train our dogs for a useful purpose….not just for trophies or ribbons. Our desire is to train ourselves and our dogs to help save someone lost or injured. We will continue to pursue search and rescue but will not discuss it further on this forum. But I thank those who have offered useful suggestions.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have experience raising littermates to maturity , as do most who select promising prospects and prepare them for their eventual future careers as bona fide working dogs.

They don't chum around together . As much as possible they are scheduled and treated as if they were the only dog I have . 
When I take them on excursions to town to get them into various environments and situations it is one dog per day .
In the past I would time-save and put two dogs (crated) into the van and then take one around for the walk or what ever adventure I had in mind , come back and repeat with the other. Never in pairs . 
It did not matter how much I tried the dog that went second never had the same input or energy from me . You can't reset yourself. 
If I do take a second pup along I will drive to another location and then do that pup , start fresh .

Two pups , same age, same litter, likely will have the same temperament type. 
No one knows the calibre of the breeder (?) or what the genetics will provide. 

Don't just look on this considering only the ideal or best scenario.

What if you had two fear aggressive dogs? Two dogs with the same issues, temperamentally or physically. 
That is why I suggested if you are ****-bent on two dogs at least get one from another breeder, slightly different in age, different genetics.

You have some assets to a SAR team , but it is a team which includes a dog . You don't have experience with the dog end of things. We don't know if the dogs you are getting even have a toe in the door to being "right" for the job , and even so it takes years of experience to learn how read a dog . 

so good luck .


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thank you for that comment.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Based on the majority of the feedback, it's clear I've offended SAR team members by presuming we might have "what it takes" and are interested in pursuing SAR training. No, we do not have any experience with search and rescue but we bring a lot of core skills to this endeavor (skills you haven't bothered asking about…just making assumptions). We both have strong backgrounds in a variety of terrain navigation scenarios as well as cold weather survival. We have radio skills/experience, we both have years of helicopter experience (no…not with dogs); we are athletic, healthy with plenty of stamina. And mostly, we have a desire to train our dogs for a useful purpose….not just for trophies or ribbons. Our desire is to train ourselves and our dogs to help save someone lost or injured. We will continue to pursue search and rescue but will not discuss it further on this forum. But I thank those who have offered useful suggestions.


Sigh. You're missing the point. I TOTALLY get being super, super excited for the next phase... but again, none of this (while all commendable) has anything to do with being prepared to raise two puppies (especially two working puppies). You might have outdoor survival skills that absolutely do translate to being equipped for SAR, but it means absolutely nothing in terms of training DOGS for SAR. Nobody here is saying that you don't have a lot of skills or a lot of valuable life experience... but it doesn't translate like that into the ability to properly raise and train two littermates. Taking a step back and saying, "this is probably not wise" is not failing- it's the opposite. You have all of this knowledge, so apply that wisdom to doing what is best for you and your future canine companions. Nobody here wants to see you overwhelmed and upset in six months because it's not like what you imagined it would be (and I don't mean to be harsh, but you've demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what you're in for). It's no life for you, and it's no life for the dogs. So why the obsession with getting two littermates? If anything, you will have a much richer experience and gain much more in-depth skills to add to that tremendous list by focusing your time and energy on one- rather than dividing it between two.

You haven't offended anyone- not at all. People are exasperated because they, at least in this area, have more experience than you... but you don't want to hear it. You never wanted advice, you wanted validation. It's a totally human thing, but it's not realistic. They are trying to keep you from failing. If you won't listen to the advice of experienced people for this beginning step, how well will you do when the training gets really hard? When listening is critical?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Based on the majority of the feedback, it's clear I've offended SAR team members by presuming we might have "what it takes" and are interested in pursuing SAR training. No, we do not have any experience with search and rescue but we bring a lot of core skills to this endeavor (skills you haven't bothered asking about…just making assumptions). We both have strong backgrounds in a variety of terrain navigation scenarios as well as cold weather survival. We have radio skills/experience, we both have years of helicopter experience (no…not with dogs); we are athletic, healthy with plenty of stamina. And mostly, we have a desire to train our dogs for a useful purpose….not just for trophies or ribbons. Our desire is to train ourselves and our dogs to help save someone lost or injured. We will continue to pursue search and rescue but will not discuss it further on this forum. But I thank those who have offered useful suggestions.


This situation is similar to taking an experienced soldier and sending them through TEDD school, except in TEDD school, the dogs are already tested, trained, proven and experienced. 

8 out of 25 soldiers passed my class, and they were hand selected from 75 candidates. 

You are in the medical field. If I asked a question about purchasing a specific model of medical equipment that your experience led you to believe was garbage, would my argument based on information gathered from the Internet carry the same weight as your practical experience? 

I suggest you find a SAR Team to consult with, and see what they say about starting 2 pups from the same litter. 

What do you think Nancy? Could you handle 2 of Beau at 15 months old? How about Karin? Are you going for 2 dutchies next time around? 

I know I have personally passed up on 2 litters this year because I got Fama (my retired MWD) back, and there was not enough hours in the day to devote the time necessary to meet both their needs. It's not fair to the dogs IMO, unless you honestly have the time and experience necessary. 



David Winners


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Valid points. I did seek advice and have made a couple of decisions based on helpful information from members of this forum. I realize raising litter mates to become independent, well adjusted, well trained dogs will not be easy….in fact it may be one of the biggest challenges of our life. But we are committed to make it work….it means training separately, keeping them apart much of the time…all things we are prepared to do. We have a private trainer set up. We also will take them to separate classes for obedience/socialization. I have numerous activities in place for separate but equal exposure and training. Yes, it will be exhausting but doable. Why go through this? That answer is emotional (not intellectual). You can attack that aspect. But I have no doubt we will succeed…..(you don't need to be convinced). I realize SAR training is not reasonable for these litter mates. However, part of their life will include nose work, tracking work……for their enjoyment and for us to learn. We will not expect these pups to ever become SAR dogs but through the experience of the next few years we will train and we will learn (and the pups will enjoy the stimulation/fun of the experiences). In 4-5 years we will get a 3rd dog (single) and will seek out a breeder with hx of successful SAR dogs. By that time we will have completed some training/SAR certification and be involved with a local SAR team. These decisions have resulted from the good advice from this form (and the fact that I do listen and took the suggestions to heart). The only non-negotiable piece is the recommendation to NOT get litter mates. Feel free to continue to criticize that decision.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Fair question. Last puppy we raised was 18 years ago…for good reason. We take it seriously. We are not entering into this decision lightly. We have waited until our son is out of the house/out of college and we have the time to devote to pups. Yes we will be exasperated/exhausted at times….but we work extremely well together and we will take care of the pups and each other.


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## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

I've been racking my brain since my last post trying to think of the member here who raised two pups at the same time & appears to be a success story. FINALLY tracked her down. Look up mcdanfam (username). I really do wish you all the best (x2)! Just don't envy you for one second!


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## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

The title of the thread I'm referring to is "Our first year with Millie and Miles."


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Another perfect example of... "Help me...I have questions....but only give me answers I want to hear."...

Good luck in your new additions to your family.
1) It WILL be difficult. 
2) The puppies WILL bond to each other over you (unless you have enough experience to prevent this).
3) The breeder made a monetary decision instead of a responsible one.
4) You WILL be seeking much more help & advice in the future.....

Again...I wish you the very best, but you should seriously take into consideration...the good advice you have received from intelligent sources.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

How did you come to the conclusion that you've 'offended SAR' members here? And yeah...yippee. So you have cold weather survival skills. So you had helio experience. Blah blah blah. So did I. That doesn't mean there is a lot more to it than you think. SAR teams want to train you how to do it THEIR way. It's kind of like fire departments: Most don't do lateral transfers because they have a way and they want guys to do it that way, not the way they did at a different dept. Not to mention that unless your experience is recent, those skills are perishable. Seriously perishable. What about rope skills? Climbing/technical skills? There is also a difference in being healthy with 'stamina' and physically fit to climb a vertical mile that gains 2400' with a pack on your back, then transporting such patient down with your team. You'd be surprised who washes out. 

Maybe you will be successful in it. That would be great. The thing people are saying --or well, I'm saying-- is go investigate and get involved in your SAR team _first._ You may or may not find you want to continue. When I said it was fun, I meant it. I grew up in Montana and believe me, I have skills.  It's what I love to do; but: it's incredibly stressful sometimes too. It's a lot of responsibility and you feel guilty when you don't respond to a page. (I got another one this morning that I declined and now I feel guilty. When they count on you it's hard to say no.) You are responsible for your team mates too when you're the navigator on a search. If it's a serious SAR team it's not much for fun and games. 

The thing about the two puppies is, I spent so much time in the practical academy and practicing rope skills etc that I'm **** glad my dog was already two years old when I started.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Valid points. I did seek advice and have made a couple of decisions based on helpful information from members of this forum. I realize raising litter mates to become independent, well adjusted, well trained dogs will not be easy….in fact it may be one of the biggest challenges of our life. But we are committed to make it work….it means training separately, keeping them apart much of the time…all things we are prepared to do. We have a private trainer set up. We also will take them to separate classes for obedience/socialization. I have numerous activities in place for separate but equal exposure and training. Yes, it will be exhausting but doable. Why go through this? That answer is emotional (not intellectual). You can attack that aspect. But I have no doubt we will succeed…..(you don't need to be convinced). I realize SAR training is not reasonable for these litter mates. However, part of their life will include nose work, tracking work……for their enjoyment and for us to learn. We will not expect these pups to ever become SAR dogs but through the experience of the next few years we will train and we will learn (and the pups will enjoy the stimulation/fun of the experiences). In 4-5 years we will get a 3rd dog (single) and will seek out a breeder with hx of successful SAR dogs. By that time we will have completed some training/SAR certification and be involved with a local SAR team. These decisions have resulted from the good advice from this form (and the fact that I do listen and took the suggestions to heart). The only non-negotiable piece is the recommendation to NOT get litter mates. Feel free to continue to criticize that decision.


Hey J&E, don't forget to have some fun. I only skimmed the thread, I'm sure good points were made as far as why two pups isnt ideal, but reading what you have posted, I know that if you go into it with all your focus on how much work,responsibility to provide for, fight, etc.... the odds of you enjoying any of it really go down. Play with them, a lot.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't usually participate in threads where everyone is saying the same thing. You will make your own decision. On the plus side there are 2 of you. -I agree with what everyone else is saying. Puppies deserve individual attention-Currently I have a almost 14 year old and a 9 year old. -two senior dogs-my 9 year old is still pretty active and I'm glad I would not want two 14 year old dogs-it would take an emotional toll -something to think about -really do agree that it is best to space out the ages of your dogs-Also personally I will never get two dogs of the same sex age-it just didn't work out for me


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh and I more thing for me to get 2 dogs from the same litter...I would have to really really really love the litter


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks to all of you (Jax, Rocket Dog, Steve, holland, robinhuerta, Cindy, David for your passion and input. You all clearly love your animals and have a tremendous amount of expertise to share. I have gained helpful insight by participating in this discussion. I'm sorry to anyone I may have offended. Please know it wasn't intentional. I am grateful to you all for the time you took to advise me and attempt to protect the pups.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

people who dedicate their time and efforts for SAR , or HR, or cadaver should be applauded . They go about their work and often go unrecognized , remain anonymous .

Thank you everyone .

The point is that is the reality of SAR . You don't go in there like some comic book hero , the "one" who makes the find, who saves the life .

SAR is team . No "I" in team. You may be assigned areas on the fringe , be the "plod" never in the spotlight or anywhere close and still be a very valuable contributor . If it is for ego , forget about it!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I second your comments Carmen. Anyone who participates in SAR should be respected for their dedication/hard work, commitment and willingness to sacrifice their time/energy/safety to assist others.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I've been accused of having a superiority complex (which prevents me from having a realistic outlook). So I've spent the day outside, watering plants, weeding, and thinking about our new puppies. I've also been soul searching regarding the critics on this forum. Sometimes we need someone (preferably an objective stranger) to put a mirror in front of us to show us who we are. Maybe I am a blow-hard with a superiority complex. Yikes! Not proud of that title. I'll work to lose it over the next few months. Regarding SAR…..maybe we do not have what it takes to be handlers or even volunteers..time will tell….we do want to help our local SAR organization if we have anything of value to contribute. We'll see about that. What I do know is that we will put every ounce of time/energy into these pups and we will make sure they are happy and even tempered. We can't predict their capabilities any more than a parent can predict the future of their children….but we will put our heart/souls into providing a happy/healthy environment for our pups. We are a work in progress.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

You and your husband sound like intelligent, driven, dedicated people. I'm sure that if anyone can make it work... Well, at any rate I am sure you will give it 110%. Whether or not it works out may not depend on how hard you try, it may depend entirely on the puppies you get and their temperaments. And at 8 weeks, I don't think you can predict how they will feel about each other at 18 months.

My husband and I learned how to build a house from reading books. And we built one. Doing about 90% of the work ourselves. People told us we were crazy to try it. But we did it and we have a fully functional house with no structural problems (we overbuilt it lol, it could withstand a zombie apocalypse). So I totally get how you can prepare yourself for an event with complete dedication. I mean, we even began a weightlifting routine a couple years before the build started so we could haul cement and lumber and ladders.

Then we finally were ready to have a dog! But getting one from the breeder we selected was taking forever so we began the process of adopting a shepherd mix puppy. We brought her home when she was five months old. Three weeks before the puppy we had reserved from the breeder was ready to come home! So we had a five month old and a two month old puppy. And we had never had a dog before. I never even had one as a kid. But we had read dozens of books, visited our local K9 club and observed classes, and of course read this forum religiously. After the success of our house, we were nervous but still confident we could do it.

I have to say, even with both of us completely dedicated to the puppies (and with me not needing to work, and my husband working from home), it was hands down the most stressful time in my life. We wanted SO MUCH to raise these puppies to be the best they could be. We didn't have SAR aspirations, or even sport dreams, but we wanted dogs we could take anywhere and do anything with. It hasn't turned out that way, for a variety of reasons no one probably cares about.

This is a long post, and I apologize. I guess my main point is that you and your husband may do absolutely everything right in raising these puppies, but your odds of successfully raising a good companion dog decrease significantly with the second puppy. I feel that if we had only had one puppy to focus on, we would have fewer issues. And them being litter mates makes it even harder.

But there is also a slim chance everything will work out just fine if you keep up your end of the deal too. I hope that's how it goes for you.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I understand what you're saying. Our best efforts very well may not be good enough. It may not be within our control. What I will say is that we will be evaluating their responses/behaviors on a daily basis and we will adjust our efforts based on their positive/negative responses. We have trainers/friends/neighbors lined up to help with training/exercise/etc. All of this may still not be adequate. Time will tell. Thank you for your insights.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

And congratulations on building your own home. That's awesome! No doubt….a life-changing experience with high's and low's but a decision you look back on fondly.


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## annap24 (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm not trying to repeat what everyone else is saying, but I'm curious about something. You almost seem accepting of the fact that you probably won't be successful. So if you know there are slim chances of success, why are you still wanting to put yourself and the two pups through all that stress? I'm not trying to put your decision down, just understand better. Because if I pretty much knew I wouldn't be successful and would be fighting an uphill battle and have to work so much harder, I would rethink my plan while I still had the chance. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Absolutely not. We are completely confident we will be successful with the two pups. We find it interesting so many are convinced we have no shot at success when our view is "of course we will be successful and our pups will thrive and be happy. If we weren't confident of success we would not take the chance.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

annap24 said:


> I'm not trying to repeat what everyone else is saying, but I'm curious about something. You almost seem accepting of the fact that you probably won't be successful. So if you know there are slim chances of success, why are you still wanting to put yourself and the two pups through all that stress? I'm not trying to put your decision down, just understand better. Because if I pretty much knew I wouldn't be successful and would be fighting an uphill battle and have to work so much harder, I would rethink my plan while I still had the chance.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I get the impression from OP's posts that she would be open and willing to take one pup on at a time. Her husband seems to be the one deadset behind the scenes on getting two puppies at the same time. 

Didn't realize it had been 18 years since you've had a dog, OP.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I would like to think that my husband I successfully raised male/female littermates. They were well behaved and went everywhere with us. I even managed both of them by myself when my husband left on a 7 month deployment (they were approx 8 months when he left). We got them as family pets and ended up dabbling in herding with them - both are/were titled. Any of their issues (which really weren't that bad) were because we had never owned dogs together before (and they were my first dogs that I had ever owned on my own). Looking back, there are definitely things I would have done differently, but you live and learn. They were/are definitely lower drive dogs, but they were perfect for us (at the time). I couldn't imagine having done it any other way. They are/were the best.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> I get the impression from OP's posts that she would be open and willing to take one pup on at a time. Her husband seems to be the one deadset behind the scenes on getting two puppies at the same time.
> 
> Didn't realize it had been 18 years since you've had a dog, OP.


You're right about husband's commitment to get litter mates. You're also right about 18 years since pups. We lost our GSD mix to cancer about 7 years ago. However, we are involved with neighbor dogs (rural neighborhood with several dogs running free in neighborhood). We welcome neighbor dogs into our home. Sometimes they spend the night inside…..with our cats…sometimes they hang out on the deck or front porch. but they are part of our pack and we love them. Neighbors are good pet owners but we have a unique situation where all neighbor dogs and cats are known to all neighbors and protected by all neighbors.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just curious about the lines .


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is the puppies may be great companions for the first year or two but with them both being male and litter mates the chances of aggression between them goes up, granted it's much higher with females.

I got my pup when my husbands poodle was a year(both males) and even though they were a year apart I still had issues with my GSD over bonding with the poodle, if I took them out together my GSD only cared where the poodle was and would whine and goes nuts if he left. It's taken a lot of hard work and training to reverse that. For that reason I'd never consider litter mates especially since I'm currently doing herding and IPO, I can't imagine my pups being as focused on me as they need to be to work.

Another issue that popped up was dominance and aggression issues between my GSD and the poodle, they've gotten into many arguments and one serious fight. Now they spend most of their time in the house separated. Are you prepared for possible same sex aggression issues with your pup? Believe me they won't care that they're brothers... They could be completely fine but you need to be prepared for the fact that it could happen, are you ok with living crate and rotate lifestyle should they stop getting along?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I remembered one other thing from when mine were puppies. You will probably want them in different obedience classes. My husband and I took them to the same class for beginner OB and it was a real pain in the butt. We tried at first to sit on opposite sides of the room but my female was DESPERATE to get over to my husband and Niko the entire time. The second class we sat together but both puppies were still very distracted by each other. If I could do it again, I would enroll the dogs in separate classes and then swap handlers each week so both dogs got to experience being trained by both of us.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

For work, I raise puppies with foundation training for a few weeks/months before sending them home. I haven't read the rest of the posts, but I have had two puppies at the same time before, on multiple occasions, and I can tell you that is is EXTREMELY difficult. I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but literally everything is two times as difficult, and raising one puppy is quite difficult enough. Waking up in the middle of the night to let one whining puppy out leads to the other whining and crying to go out, or possibly not being able to hold it while you let them out one at a time because if you try and let them out together, they just end up playing at 3am in the yard. Like Leah said, the training can be very difficult too. Depending on who is going to do the training, you may get worn out after a set with one of them and not really be as involved with the other as you could be. If you have support split between the two of you, then you may have better luck. I know Leah's husband is a super amazing man, but not everyone is so lucky to have lifetime support in raising two animals together at the same time. When trying to spread yourself thin between two very intensive living beings, on top of the rest of life, it just isn't so fun anymore. And I'm just being honest...Really, not trying to sound condescending or snarky at all. 

Right now, I have 1 puppy, and he is exhausting. I'm sure at some point I will have two at the same time again, but I never really look forward to it.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

So glad to hear your success story. Thanks for sharing! Sounds like most who have attempted it have succeeded….you just do what it takes to make it work.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> For work, I raise puppies with foundation training for a few weeks/months before sending them home. I haven't read the rest of the posts, but I have had two puppies at the same time before, on multiple occasions, and I can tell you that is is EXTREMELY difficult. I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but literally everything is two times as difficult, and raising one puppy is quite difficult enough. Waking up in the middle of the night to let one whining puppy out leads to the other whining and crying to go out, or possibly not being able to hold it while you let them out one at a time because if you try and let them out together, they just end up playing at 3am in the yard. Like Leah said, the training can be very difficult too. Depending on who is going to do the training, you may get worn out after a set with one of them and not really be as involved with the other as you could be. If you have support split between the two of you, then you may have better luck. I know Leah's husband is a super amazing man, but not everyone is so lucky to have lifetime support in raising two animals together at the same time. When trying to spread yourself thin between two very intensive living beings, on top of the rest of life, it just isn't so fun anymore. And I'm just being honest...Really, not trying to sound condescending or snarky at all.
> 
> Right now, I have 1 puppy, and he is exhausting. I'm sure at some point I will have two at the same time again, but I never really look forward to it.


Thank you for your reply. I don't think you're trying to rain on our parade. I realize just how concerned everyone is on this forum regarding our decision to raise littermate male GSD's. My husband had littermate GSD's when he was younger (teenage years) and his memory of those boys is ALL POSITIVE. He also understands this will be a tremendous challenge but I don't think he is as concerned as I. We are preparing for these pups as people prepare for new human twins (in that we are clearing our schedules and planning to make these pups our total focus for the next ______________(whatever it takes). We don't have busy schedules anymore (except for our work schedules) and are staggering our schedules for the next several months so at least one of us will be here (both of us will be home with them for the first month). We have a great little neighborhood with dog-loving neighbors who are engaged with our plan. We have experienced pet sitters lined up (from the neighborhood) for those times we need additional help. We have a Godmother for these new pups in case something happens to us (with provisions in our will to care for them). We have scheduled their first puppy obedience classes (one on Tues and one on Thurs). We will train them at home both together and separately (thank goodness there are two of us). We also have a trainer who will be working with us/them weekly at our home. 
I am grateful (and humbled) by the flood of comments/concerns from this forum and I realize it is from experienced GSD owners. No doubt we will have issues but we will be on guard for those issues, will try to set them up for success, and be prepared to recognize problems early and intervene quickly.
I've never been on a forum before this one so if my 'etiquette' is incorrect, please educate me. Thank you all!


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Thank you for your reply. I don't think you're trying to rain on our parade. I realize just how concerned everyone is on this forum regarding our decision to raise littermate male GSD's. My husband had littermate GSD's when he was younger (teenage years) and his memory of those boys is ALL POSITIVE. He also understands this will be a tremendous challenge but I don't think he is as concerned as I. We are preparing for these pups as people prepare for new human twins (in that we are clearing our schedules and planning to make these pups our total focus for the next ______________(whatever it takes). We don't have busy schedules anymore (except for our work schedules) and are staggering our schedules for the next several months so at least one of us will be here (both of us will be home with them for the first month). We have a great little neighborhood with dog-loving neighbors who are engaged with our plan. We have experienced pet sitters lined up (from the neighborhood) for those times we need additional help. We have a Godmother for these new pups in case something happens to us (with provisions in our will to care for them). We have scheduled their first puppy obedience classes (one on Tues and one on Thurs). We will train them at home both together and separately (thank goodness there are two of us). We also have a trainer who will be working with us/them weekly at our home.
> I am grateful (and humbled) by the flood of comments/concerns from this forum and I realize it is from experienced GSD owners. No doubt we will have issues but we will be on guard for those issues, will try to set them up for success, and be prepared to recognize problems early and intervene quickly.
> I've never been on a forum before this one so if my 'etiquette' is incorrect, please educate me. Thank you all!


Everyone maybe right... it might gonna be tough as **** and so exhausting BUT im so excited and jealous u get to have 2 GSD !!!!! im planing to get my 2nd one after Ace turned 1 ^^


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> For work, I raise puppies with foundation training for a few weeks/months before sending them home. I haven't read the rest of the posts, but I have had two puppies at the same time before, on multiple occasions, and I can tell you that is is EXTREMELY difficult. I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but literally everything is two times as difficult, and raising one puppy is quite difficult enough. Waking up in the middle of the night to let one whining puppy out leads to the other whining and crying to go out, or possibly not being able to hold it while you let them out one at a time because if you try and let them out together, they just end up playing at 3am in the yard. Like Leah said, the training can be very difficult too. Depending on who is going to do the training, you may get worn out after a set with one of them and not really be as involved with the other as you could be. If you have support split between the two of you, then you may have better luck. I know Leah's husband is a super amazing man, but not everyone is so lucky to have lifetime support in raising two animals together at the same time. When trying to spread yourself thin between two very intensive living beings, on top of the rest of life, it just isn't so fun anymore. And I'm just being honest...Really, not trying to sound condescending or snarky at all.
> 
> Right now, I have 1 puppy, and he is exhausting. I'm sure at some point I will have two at the same time again, but I never really look forward to it.


You were insane and had THREE puppies at one time... :wild:


The thought of having two of Delta makes me physically ill. It was bad enough keeping up with her when she was a young'un... but having TWO hormonal, moody, rebellious teenagers is the stuff of nightmares. And I too have a great spouse who is committed to helping.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> You were insane and had FOUR puppies at one time... :wild:
> 
> 
> The thought of having two of Delta makes me physically ill. It was bad enough keeping up with her when she was a young'un... but having TWO hormonal, moody, rebellious teenagers is the stuff of nightmares. And I too have a great spouse who is committed to helping.


Remember this? This was just 3. Exhibit A:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10153738411605627&set=vb.830440626&type=3

Exhibit B:

https://vimeo.com/101630003

Exhibit C:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154364297670627&set=vb.830440626&type=3


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Remember this? This was just 3. Exhibit A:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10153738411605627&set=vb.830440626&type=3
> 
> ...


Oooh that's right... it was JUST three  

Could you imagine having multiple crackheads now, at 9-10 months old?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Meeting new pups in 5 days! ADVICE PLEASE! "

should have been -- meeting new pups in 5 days! SHARE OUR EXCITEMENT"

So you haven't seen the pups yet?
In love with the idea . The pups are still abstract . What if you don't connect with them?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is what happens "We tried to rescue two 9 year old sisters and it was an epic disaster. The sisters were just into each other and they had extreme ball drive. They really went at each other with tooth and nail "
from this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...at/477089-hi-seattle-looking-czech-puppy.html


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> Oooh that's right... it was JUST three
> 
> Could you imagine having multiple crackheads now, at 9-10 months old?


Have the t-shirt. Try it with two human teenagers. LOL It was an experience that's for sure. Wouldn't trade it for the world though. 










The absolutely worst part was losing them. Buddy my last one just passed away a few months ago.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Late to this thread but I have been keeping up with it.

When I was a child*, we got two Siberian Husky puppies from the same litter, females to boot (How many things are wrong with that sentence???). While they never had same sex aggression, they did bond more to each other than us. It was too overwhelming for our family...not only wasn't the breed right, two was QUADRUPLE the work and we were NOT experienced. It ended up being no fun for anyone. You can't enjoy it. 

I agree with one of the posters in this thread that said I want to bond with one puppy at a time. I want to be the center of that puppy's universe and work on creating an unshakable bond. It's just too hard with two. When even experienced people from trainers, to breeders, to savvy dog owners are telling you it's not a good idea, that's when you have to question yourself.

I understand your committed. I am also very committed to my dogs. It's why I only have one puppy at a time. It's best for the dog and you.

I just can't imagine doing it with two. Even with one puppy, I have no life for at least the first year and a half. When I'm not working, it's all about the puppy. If I had two, they'd have to lock me up in a mental ward.:crazy:




*I was a child, I had no involvement in the decision making process.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm thinking of having my wife do the surgery on my back for me. We've read all about it, watched some really great Power Point slide shows, and several programs on Discovery Health. We're totally committed to making it work, so we really can't fall can we? 

Just for safe measure, we're going to spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express the night before  

David Winners


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> I'm thinking of having my wife do the surgery on my back for me. We've read all about it, watched some really great Power Point slide shows, and several programs on Discovery Health. We're totally committed to making it work, so we really can't fall can we?
> 
> Just for safe measure, we're going to spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express the night before
> 
> David Winners


She should watch Grey's Anatomy, that's really an educational resource.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

It had been 10 or 11 years since I had had a puppy. I think if I ended up with two of Varik I would STILL be on medication. Having a pup, and working line to boot, after all that time was a very rude awakening. It still is and he's 16 months old now!


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Galathiel said:


> It had been 10 or 11 years since I had had a puppy. I think if I ended up with two of Varik I would STILL be on medication. Having a pup, and working line to boot, after all that time was a very rude awakening. It still is and he's 16 months old now!


It's funny how quickly we block out the trauma. It was 4 years between Echo and Delta.... my husband and I talked about how we could barely remember what Echo was like as a puppy, and we figured it was due to suppressed memories :wild:


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LoveEcho said:


> She should watch Grey's Anatomy, that's really an educational resource.


That's a great idea! 



David Winners


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Is Jumping the Shark a forum term? Lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

What's wrong with "House" ?

okay , no more silliness --


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

carmspack said:


> What's wrong with "House" ?
> 
> okay , no more silliness --


It's all internal medicine. If I was bleeding from the eyes and tasted bologna, though I hadn't eaten any, it would be House for sure. 

You're right. Back on topic. 

David Winners


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree, there are some things that can be learned from books and research (like building a house). You can do a lot to prepare yourself for a puppy by reading, but you have no idea what you are into until you bring him or her home. My husband and I had even made up a daily schedule for each dog, and who would be responsible for doing what. That schedule didn't even last a day.  And I forgot all my "training" lol. Puppies have a way of turning everything you had planned upside down. And then chewing on it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Is Jumping the Shark a forum term? Lol.


Best example of a fallacious comparison I've seen in a long time.  David can I use it as an example in class.. Please?!! 

You don't need rocket science or a medical degree to raise puppies.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Best example of a fallacious comparison I've seen in a long time.  David can I use it as an example in class.. Please?!!
> 
> You don't need rocket science or a medical degree to raise puppies.


Oh sure! 

And I agree. Neither of those courses of study will help you raise puppies  

David Winners


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Comparing raising pups to medical surgery or diagnoses is just dumb. 

Yes you can raise a pup based on just reading books and advice from people. No you can't do surgery from just reading books. How are those even compared? It takes a lot to ruin a good dog. If you must mock the op then at least give a better comparison. 

The only thing required to raise two pups is YOUR TIME AND YOUR EFFORT. Experience is a big bonus but certainly not required. I mean how do first time mom's of twins do it? Sure it's a whole lot of extra work but you learn as you go. It's not rocket science.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It was just sarcastic humor. I apologize to the op for the poor judgement. I'll be sure to stick to strictly serious conversation in the future. 

David Winners


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I apologize to the op for the poor judgement.
> 
> David Winners


Kudos to you, David. I find very few posters on this forum apologize. A true measure of your integrity.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I'm thinking of having my wife do the surgery on my back for me. We've read all about it, watched some really great Power Point slide shows, and several programs on Discovery Health. We're totally committed to making it work, so we really can't fall can we?
> 
> Just for safe measure, we're going to spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express the night before
> 
> David Winners


And we'll see how she does on you, and if you make it (I'll have to see a video of your gait after you're out of recovery), she can do the surgery on my back, lololol!

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Oops--I hadn't read the "no sarcasm, no silliness" posts. Sorry.

Except for one thing--Carmen, I liked House, too. Never watched Grey's.

Susan


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, the twins analogy isn't any better. First of all babies can talk (and before they're grown up). They generally don't bite and or kill people if they're badly behaved (although that could be the subject of a whole Nother conversation.)

I loved House. I saw Hugh Laurie when he came here to play with his blues band. Absolutely fantastic.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

I guess I don't have a sense of humor? 

There's a fine line between good sarcastic humor and mocking. Especially when the poster's heart is in the right place (just not her head)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hence the apology, because I truly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. 

In all honesty, I wish all dog owners had the commitment the op is showing. I think if they stuck to their guns they have a chance at success. 

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Well, the twins analogy isn't any better. First of all babies can talk (and before they're grown up). They generally don't bite and or kill people if they're badly behaved.


Logic galore


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I have 4 year old litter mate females, both are great, get along fine and neither are "doggy" 
If you and your husband are both equally involved, it's not that bad. DW and I trained our own dog in separate classes. We exercised them together and apart and we have had no issues with them being separated. As long as both of you are fully involved, 2 pups are not that difficult.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Nigel,
I'm happy to hear your success story with your litter mates. Did your dogs tend to bond with one of you more than the other? Not sure if we should each focus training time primarily on one dog or if we should rotate?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote Gib Laut "Yes you can raise a pup based on just reading books and advice from people. 
.......................
The only thing required to raise two pups is YOUR TIME AND YOUR EFFORT"

to this OP plan
"We have a great little neighborhood with dog-loving neighbors who are engaged with our plan. We have experienced pet sitters lined up (from the neighborhood) for those times we need additional help."

that's great , just watch that the dogs don't become raised by a committee .

all this, including a littermate , is okay for a pet dog --- it wouldn't work in the raising and preparing for a working dog , which was part of the original plan - SAR .


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Lets just assume that the OP is going to get two pups. Seems like that is a firm decision on her part. 

She had asked what to look for in temperament. I'm not an expert by any means but just thinking about the dogs I have owned, it would be a mellow, easy going pup that is not rattled by noise and surprises. Dominant pups might want to take over the family and submissive dogs might be so frightened of the world that you have aggression issues down the line. This being said.... it also depends so much on the genetics... as a starting point. That is why some very knowledgeable people have asked about pedigree. Have you met the parents? What is this breeder breeding for, what type of temperament? Answering those questions might get you some input into puppy selection.

I think you have to realize here that you asked for advice and people can get frustrated when you don't want to hear it. Many of us think you have the chance right now to improve your odds of getting a great dog... not just muttling through. I think that is the frustration here. I know people have raised multiple puppies and done it more or less successfully but you increase your chances of success by working one puppy IMHO. It is very likely that these pups will be nothing like your pup from years ago. Please understand that. The GSD can be, not all, but can be, a very challenging breed and you have to be on top of things, not with neighbors taking part, but also realizing that you may have to really spend time and money on a very very good trainer (not a class) if you run into challenging behaviors. Any challenging behaviors will be compounded by having two young dogs. IMHO. You also touched a nerve with the idea of SAR. Raising a working puppy is a different deal and again, if you want to be successful there is a better way to go than picking two litter mates from a whatever breeder (backyard?) IMHO. 

You'll do what you want and that is fine. Sounds like they will have a good life. Stay on top of things early and invest invest invest early. 

Best.

P.S. If I had two of Tygo's litter I would be addicted to Xanax and alcohol by now I'm pretty sure. I may have run away from home and be living under a bridge somewhere... I would have become a cat lady I think. ;-)


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Nigel,
> I'm happy to hear your success story with your litter mates. Did your dogs tend to bond with one of you more than the other? Not sure if we should each focus training time primarily on one dog or if we should rotate?


We stuck with training our own pups due to differences of opinion in training, lol Tuke doesn't startle easily and is not afraid of anything, but she is a handler soft dog, she has done great with me. Zoey needs a firmer hand or she will walk all over you, she did great with DW. DW and I both have moved on to a more "centralized" approach since, so we disagree much less than before.  

I thought you mentioned bringing a trainer to your home, I would get out and train in different places with different levels of distraction, otherwise you may end up with dogs who's OB flakes outside the boundaries of your property. Scrutinize trainers carefully, check references as not to get off on the wrong foot. Look for clubs too, some bring in very accomplished trainers who compete nationally in different dog sports, I've learned tons from the two seminars we attended this year. 

With bonding, over time, both females have bonded better with me. We have added a WL male, now 2 yrs and a show line male 5 months. Both the boys prefer her, especially the new pup.

Our success with litter mates may not work in your situation. Other than recreational outings, training, etc... We keep ours confined to our yard. The neighborhood you describe with loose dogs running about could end up being a major problem if either of your pups shows DA tendencies, Just something to think about.


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## voodoogsd (Aug 5, 2014)

Place your hand under a pups belly and lift them up just high enough for their feet to leave the ground. the one that doesnt try to fight and run away is the keeper!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

voodoogsd said:


> Place your hand under a pups belly and lift them up just high enough for their feet to leave the ground. the one that doesnt try to fight and run away is the keeper!


This test in and off itself won't tell you anything about the pup's potential for SAR or other working venues.


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## imajpm (May 11, 2014)

First post, I generally lurk 

But this thread got to me. I have a 7 month old czech lined working shepherd. What I think many people are trying to say is that these dogs are not ordinary, or remotely ordinary. They are tons of work, and by work I mean training, rescuing a household item every few minutes, and burning off the ton of energy that they have. Hours per day and that doesn't include socializing them elsewhere. I have no time at all for myself. My life revolves totally around this dog and I can't say I find that enjoyable. My household has also declared "No more puppies EVER". No and Leave it are still the most common words that exit my mouth. 

If I could turn back time I'd have picked something more laid back but it's too late, I love the darn baggage but I too am exhausted by one puppy..Two? Well let's just say I am really really glad I only have one.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Just one more bit of advice. If you have any good furniture that you are fond of, please put it in storage for the next 2 years. Replace it with stuff from Goodwill because it probably won't last very long anyway, and it won't be an issue when it's destroyed.

We raised 2 GS pups together, but they were 2 months apart in age, not littermates, one male and one female. We got them from the same rescue when they were 2 and 4 months old. They were strictly pets and not high drive pups like others here. 

Even so, they were incredibly destructive, and they completely ate 2 wing chairs, among other things, chewing off all the legs and stripping the fabric. We thought we watched them every second, but those little guys are fast and sneaky. Never turn your backs on them when they are loose.

We had some of the issues others have mentioned, especially their bonding first and foremost with each other, but they were also wonderful together. Unfortunately, we lost the younger female suddenly to cancer when she was only 3 and her "brother" has mourned her as much as we have. 

Two is definitely more than twice as much trouble and work as one. I wish you success, but certainly don't envy your chosen path.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Given the dates on this posting... I wonder if she got the puppies?


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