# Chillicothe John/Seamus/Hellboy



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

First of all, he is definitely not a purebred....more like a miniature Long haired mix of Shepherd, possibly with something like a sheltie only larger, but certainly not PB or normal shepherd size. His tail curls up over his back like a huskie's.

When we finally got home (late, so late at night) he would not climb the stairs...I tried tugging on the leash gently and encouraging him to follow me. He laid down on the stairs and pulled against the leash so hard he was choking himself to death. I had to carry his 40 plus self up the stairs bodily or we'd have stood in the wet snow all night.

Leash.....he ran around in circles until he wound himself around my legs...pulled so hard I couldn't unwrap him. I tried the prong collar, he screamed like he was dying, fell on the ground, wrapped in a dog version of a fetal position, and wouldn't move.

I virtually muscled him into the tub for a bath (he stunk so badly I couldn't leave him without one). Don't think he's ever had a bath in his life. Fought me every inch of the way. By the time we were done, the walls, ceiling and floor had been washed as well, though he was smelling better when he finally dried (hours later...that long coat takes forever and was afraid to use a blow dryer on him).

He peed on the living room floor. Grabbed the scruff of his neck and tried to move him outside but he froze in place until he was finished (monstrous puddle, too, as I was told he hadn't peed during the entire trip from Ohio to DC and didn't on the way home with me either). Finally got him outside, scolding him that we pee outside, not in the house, and started down the stairs...he tangled himself around my legs and I ended up falling down to the bottom (I am covered with bruises). As he had tumbled down with, I had to carry him up the stairs again as he wouldn't go back up by himself and then, when finally inside, he hid in a corner and wouldn't come out.

I put him in the crate, fed and watered him there. He drank tons, ate but a mouthful (and he's so skinny under all that fur). I blocked access to it (ostensibly until the first night was past) before the other two were introduced to him. Almost tore the crate apart....and barked and cried. Disturbed both my dogs so badly that when I opened the outside door later in the evening, Freya bolted out and disappeared (it's a wet, rain/snow, windy, cold night down here). 

I spent an hour looking for her and finally found her under the porch, wet, cold and cowering. Meanwhile, Thor, who hasn't peed in the house in years, stared me right in the eye and **** if he didn't pee on the living room floor, just like the Hellboy did.

He growls at both my dogs and had Thor growling back at one point. From some of his actions, I'm guessing he was seriously abused at some point in his life (particularly something like being tied up on a short line with a too-tight collar, helpless to defend himself, and taunted, for example) and it's become, as a result, equally serious issues for him......as well as for me, Thor and Freya. I'm at a loss as to what to do... Thor definitely dislikes him, Freya is quietly curious. He and Thor got into it face to face today (He got out of the hallway -where I have him gated off- somehow) and Freya spent some time licking Thor's face, almost as if to say, "It's alright, just ignore him." She's the pacifier in all this.

He has no clue about commands, doesn't even understand 'Sit'. He's apparently never been housebroken. And he's certainly not a socialized animal with any other dogs, though interestingly, he has ignored my outside cats. But then he is too busy driving himself and me crazy with the leash aggression and general insanity. It's like he has a few bolts loose in his head if you watch the way he acts.

This morning, after a good night's sleep by all, he seemed happy to see me, at least until I went to put the leash on his (NOT prong) collar. Then he ran around like a maniac, trying to hide. Finally got it on and took him out. He managed to get down the stairs (almost yanking me down again...I find I have to hang on to the bannister and move one step at a time to stabilize him first). But no matter how far we walked, he wouldn't pee. And getting back up the stairs to the house was madness but I took it one step at a time and waited...I'll be darned if I'm going to carry him up and down. However, I'm expecting at any minute to find he's peed in the hallway where he's being kept, separated from the rest of the house (and my dogs) by a gate. They can check each other out but can't share the same space.

His way of dealing with anything he doesn't like is to fall down, face hidden in paws, where he then refuses to move. I don't pull him, but I keep encouraging him to come with me (treats, encouraging voice, whatever works). Or if he's scared or just doesn't want to acknowledge you're there, he turns his head away and stares off into the distance. I've been spending time with him today, treats in hand, saying "Sit" and trying the puppy trick of making his head go back until he almost HAS to sit to get the treat, then praising him with "Good sit, Seamus, good sit". I sure hope the old adage, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" isn't true. 

But I've never dealt with a dog who's mentally, psychologically and emotionally whacked out. I don't know where to begin. I want to help him, though. When I saw him bouncing up and down with happiness to see me this morning, I wanted to cry. He's such a mixed up boy. 

Any advice anyone has on how to socialize, train, housetrain, etc. a crazy old coot would be much appreciated. Somewhere I seem to remember calling him a 'Doomed dog'....and I'm beginning to think truer words were never spoken.

By the way, pictures to follow....I've been ..um.. a tad busy to upload them. *smiles ruefully*


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow, you need a BIG hug!!! That poor boy has been so mistreated. I had one I rescued that was terrified of the leash, I kept a leash with me every time I came to her, I didnt put it on, just had it with me, I would put it on her to go out, but I would have it at dinner time, play time, treat time and learning etc and not put it on her........she finally realized the leash wasnt her enemy. You will need a lot of patience with this one, I wish I could give better advice, but until he learns that he is safe, he will probably continue to act out. He probably hasnt had any kindness in his life at all. I have a foster right now, while he isnt quite as bad as your new guy, he deffinately had no manners at all and I am also teaching him basics, as well has just how to accept kindness and how to play nice.......I would love to hear your progress, keep posting!!


----------



## ToFree24 (Jan 2, 2007)

You poor Girl !! Sounds like you are really being put through the test


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Ok, whew. I adopted a dog like this once. That was Basu! He was scared of everything when we brought him home. Pick up the leash? Fell on the floor and showed us his belly! Ask him to sit? Fell on the floor and showed us his belly! Called him to come? Fell on the floor and showed us his belly! Tried to get him to go downstairs? Stood at the top and screamed his head off. Take him for a walk? He would march at breakneck speed in a straight line. If people approached he would drag me into the street. That's just the beginning. Luckily he was neither dog or cat aggressive. But he was _terrified_ of everything! When faced with a new situation he was scared of he would commando crawl. So, believe me when I say that I understand. Oh--he turned out to be an awesome dog and he was 4.5 when we got him. 

Seamus has melted down because he in a totally new situation. He has no idea whether you or your dogs are going to harm him and given his past experiences he must assume that all of you will hurt him. I would start by taking a really deep breath and continuing to tell yourself that none of this is his fault and that he will come around. Try to imagine things from his perspective. That always helps me. Do not correct him physically or verbally for anything. He is too much in shock right now to understand any of that. It will just confirm all of his fears. I know that will be hard but it is essential that he build total trust in you. From there you can get through everything else. 

He is probably scared to pee on a leash. Is there a fenced area nearby where you can take him and let him off? I'm sure he will pee there. 

Do you have anything like rescue remedy around? If so I would dose him up on that. 

Does he like treats? Cheese, chicken, anything? That's how I trained Basu on the stairs. Put a treat on each one and encouraged the heck out of him to go down. He commando crawled both ways the first couple of times but then he got the hang of it. 

I gotta take my two out now but hang in there!!!!! There are lots of people on here who can help you help him.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Poor old dog and you too. He sounds like he was abused. Maybe he was kicked down the stairs at one time; who knows. I had a foster who had to learn to pee while on leash. I think some dogs never learned to pee while walking with a human so it may take a few days. I would confine him for a few hours take him out then confine again if he doesn't pee. You could let him drag the leash around in the house and at least you don't have to catch him to put it on. It really isn't too hard to housebreak most old dogs as long as you can confine him somehow. He doesn't sound human aggressive? Is he? I think you are correct about training use lots of good tasting treats and a firm but non threatening voice as he sounds like he was abused and would probably hide if you raise your voice. As far as your other dogs...sounds like your female is going to be your biggest helper. If she is trying to calm then perhaps it is best to work the new boy with her at first. If she accepts the new guy then you are at least to that point. He was neutered recently so may still smell of male hormones and that will take a few more weeks or months to get out of his system. I would guess all the stress of the last month may have made him more frightened. I would call Michele and see what her insights are too.

Karen


----------



## AllisonS (Oct 16, 2007)

My Pit Bull rescue was abused. I adopted her last July. I can't even tell you how many times she had me in tears & it takes a LOT to break me down. I cried several times to my husband that she just had to go back. She had SO many problems that I didn't think I could do it. For example...she was SO scared of the dark or any noise during the day that when I'd take her out to pee (on a leash) she'd army crawl on her belly pulling me back to the door. She was IMPOSSIBLE to house train. I could go on & on. 

Now it's 6 months later & I have a pretty darn good dog. All of her fears are gone, she's housebroken, she's friendly, she walks beside me w/o a leash. Actually she's much better behaved than my GSD Greta and I've had HER since she was a pup!

Hang in there. Have patience. It's hard but it won't be this way forever.


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

awwww...poor dog...he is not a "doomed dog", "helldog" or "crazy old coot"....the behavior you are seeing is not unusual to those that rescue...I think anyone that pulls a shelter dog, especially sight unseen, needs to be prepared for the fact that there may be issues and be committed to working on them (not saying you aren't...talking in general)

He is scared...there is always an adjustment period and lots of work that goes into a dog that has been rescued...especially from unknown circumstances...what was his life before like? was he chained outside with no socialization? was he abused? Then of course, he was dumped in a scarey shelter, transported by strangers, now in a new environment. Who can blame him for being afraid? 

My heart goes out to that poor guy.......


----------



## Kaylas Mom (Oct 6, 2007)

Poor dog he sounds like he has been abused...He just sounds like he is scared...he is in a new place so has to get use to being there..You sound like such a lovely lady..He is a lucky dog to have found you...good luck to you and seamus...can't wait for pics


----------



## doreenf (Nov 7, 2007)

Oh My! My heart goes out to you and your rescue. I rescued my sky 14 years ago, he would not go in the car, peed on everything afraid of everything and everyone, screamed and tried to chew his way through the metal crate, did not like my other dogs, afraid of thunderstroms. It took alot of patience(also I cried alot) part of me felt sorry for what this poor baby has been through before I got him. Part of me wanted to get rid of him, but feeling sorry is no good. I vowed to go through with him, a little bit at a time. Every dog is different, but it took him less than a year to get rid of his issues. Except thunderstorms, now he is so old I think he is losing his hearing,anyway you have to do what is best for you. Its not easy but very rewarding. Good Luck


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Bless you for going through all you are going through right now for Seamus. Things WILL get better! Seamus just now cannot find peace, and does not yet even know how to calm himself. This WILL all come in time. I know you feel in way over your head.... in a year's time, you will have a sweet, devoted dog who may have some quirks and a few issues still, but he will do well in your care. This board is full of members who rescue tough cases, who can provide you with encouragement, ideas-- true support! I know, when you're the one who's overwhelmed, cleaning up the pee, just been growled at, and it's all before 3 am... it seems it will never end. Seamus will learn peace. You will gently guide him, and that he can be a "good dog" will be a reality... with time and gentle patience with him. He is so lucky that you opened your heart and took him in. He can't find words to tell you that he thinks the world is ending... so you are seeing symptoms of his fears. In a few weeks from now, things will be more stable, and you can look back at improvements already. Big stuff like going to the vets, taking him for a real walk, leash training, anything-- can be handled in small, slow, lazy, calm steps. Those on the board who rehab tough cases will give you the ideas you need. He is so lucky to have found an angel in you. No matter how stressed you are, please-- reach right around, and pat yourself on the back. Seamus has found a loving guide to help him learn to live at peace in what he currently still thinks is a chaotic world. Hugs to you for rescuing this handsome boy!


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Taking a break........gaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I'm exhausted but think that's mostly due to the long drive and then the wild return home late last night.

But I hear everything you're saying, folks. I know he's been through so much for so long that he just doesn't know what end is up at this point. I'm sure it will take a lot of time to get him settled in such a way that he knows he won't be beaten or brutalized. But your positive attitudes are a great help, as well as some of your tips.

I like the treats on the staircase for one, Ruth....neat thought. As for the not peeing on a leash, I never heard of that before. Interesting. Sadly, it's too cold to enclose him in my outside kennel though I might try if he hasn't peed by the end of the afternoon.

And Karen, the idea of dragging a leash around is an easy one to do and might just work. No, he isn't human aggressive. He loves to be loved, though he's still afraid when I call him to me, even with a treat in my hand. But we did share french fries on the way home last night. *giggles* And I accept the thought about his male hormones being what's disturbing Thor, who considers himself my second lieutenant and the boss (he thinks...*snickers*) over Freya. So much for the male mind at work.









And Freya has turned out to be a gem. She sits by the gate and 'communicates' with Seamus silently. She tends to get between Thor and Seamus when they stand on opposite sides of the gate, ears back, snarling, showing teeth, etc. I'm keeping Thor busy throwing his darn squeaky toys. *grins*

As I said, the fact that all of you have been there, done that, and probably gotten 10 t-shirts, and can support my efforts as you have been doing, is wonderful, especially for Seamus (who I have been teasingly calling Hellboy....perhaps Bozo was the better nickname...*chuckles*). I am going to try to succeed with him, though I've never dealt with anything like this before. And I'm getting much much too old to be tumbling down stairs...sheesh, my hips are at risk at my age.









I do wish we had such useful things as trainers and rescue proven folks around here, but once again, I have to say....we are 30 miles out to sea on a very lightly populated island, and 75 miles from even the nearest Wally World.

Okay, I'm going to try one more outing to see if he'll pee before I take some time to watch the Chargers/Patriots game. Ahhhh my poor Peyton and his Colts. Later, guys. Go Chargers .. or anyone that can beat the Patriots.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

you know it's times like these when i am just in absolute awe of all the help and knowledge that is here (and so freely given), on this board, for the dogs and for the people who give them a chance to live, and know love, and be cared for. i hear in your posts that you are overwhelmed, way overwhelmed, and understandably so. but all this wonderful advice and concern here will give you the safety net you need to continue on...one day at a time, and if, after a while it becomes apparent to you that, indeed, other arrangements need to be made, you will again find the support and knowledge here to help you feel secure in your decision(s). 

ps...i got such a smile out of your nickname "hellboy", 'cause i call my boy cash "wildboy" and "crazyboy". hang in there, take care, we are all thinking about you and sending positive energy!


----------



## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

I'm just wondering if a harness would be easier on him to start out with and it also gives a little extra "help" taking him up and down steps?? What do you think?? Also, some younger dogs do have to learn to pee on lead when away from their home turf ..and I've actually known people who collect and carry some of their dogs urine with them to dog shows to put in the grass to encourage them to find "their" spot and potty. No i'm not suggesting you do that LOL, but just wanted to reassure you that it's not too unusual for a dog of any age not potty on his walks right right away!


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Just an idea that worked for me re housebreaking: First thing tomorrow morning, take him out to pee-- on leash. Stand still in the yard, don't allow him a stroll. He will soon exhaust all the intriguing scents in the area. Be boring. Don't even chat or talk to him at all.. not even 'hurry up." Stay like a boring, quiet statue for as long as you can-- and he will probably pee.

Just sending you good vibes now!


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Rafi didn't know how to pee or poop on a leash and he's still learning! He will hold it for the entire hour or two walk/outing and then go in the yard when we get back!!!!!! Basu was the same way. He would only pee twice a day for months because that was all he was allowed in his previous "home." I had no idea what I was getting into with him. I read everything on the net I could find about abused dogs and the thing that worked for us and him was to stay super positive. I made everything into a happy game. I changed the name of every command because he had bad associations with all of them. He was dragged on a leash from the house to the garage to the cage that he spend 14 days in. So I made all leash time fun, fun, fun. 

And I sure he is terrified of Thor and so he has to be nasty to try to protect himself. You can start getting the positive associations there by feeding treats within sight distance of the other dog (but NOT while they are close enough to challenge each other) and say the other dogs name like, "Is that Thor?" Give treat. Good boy! 

And hasn't Freya been looking for a job? Have you tried taking him out with her? When he sees her going down the stairs he just might follow her! 

Also, re coming to you--let him come on his own. Try standing with your back to him with a yummy treat in your hand and let him take it out and then praise him softly.

And take some ibuprofren for those bruises! Got any arnica?


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Maybe what the dog needs is a little less attention until he settles down. I don't know how this is going to work with two others in the house but if there is someway you could find to let him come to you... 
If it were warmer another stimulous to urination would be warm water sprayed on his sheath (in a mister, not a hose!).


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Big day!!! (and not just for the Patriots...grrr) Still hasn't peed or pooed but....we've been up and down the stairs several times already and he now heads down like a pro (tho' coming back up is still iffy). Each time we've walked further and further from the house before he stopped, turned his body towards the house and wouldn't move any further. Apparently that's his way of telling me is too uncertain yet to go any further.

Forruger, funny you should ask about a halter. I actually thought about that earlier this afternoon and put on Thor's old one. Tightened it up (and tightened it a whole lot more) and have just left it on with his leash dragging around with him. Amazing what a difference those two things have made. No screaming, choking, falling down and playing dead now that the neck collar is gone. And that's how we got our footing on the stairs, with me holding the back strap.

Tonight was a really big deal. I fed my two (who always sit and wait until I tell them 'alright, go eat' at which time the both dive for their bowls...teehee). Then I took a bowl with a small amount to Seamus. I said 'Sit' and put some pressure on his backside until he sat and then held my palm in front of his face and said 'Stay'. Slowly I put the bowl on the floor and he didn't move until I said 'Alright'. I was sooooo proud of him.

Waited about half an hour or so and took him out again. I figured maybe food might put a tad of pressure on his bladder. False hope. *laughs* And he did spend an hour or more in the kennel earlier for the same reason with no results. He'll let it all go sometime....just hope I have him outside when he does. But we also walked all the way that I take my other two every day, past all the places where they do their business. He sniffed but walked on. Was finally comfortable being so far out of sight of home. Mostly it seems he's finally noticed the cats, and wants to chase them all over the neighborhood. Have to hang on to him when one of them wanders into view.

Brightstar....I like the idea of standing like a flagpole and giving him just room to circle me until he gets bored. I'll bundle up with my mukluks and all as I think it's going to take a loooooong time. *giggles* But why do I have to wait until morning? The guy hasn't gone since last night when he emptied himself on my living room floor. Surely he isn't gonna hold it until morning. *grins*

But I also like the idea of taking Freya with Seamus later, if he still hasn't gone. She takes care of her business rapidly, no waste of time. Maybe he'll get the message. Just have to persuade and explain to Thor why he isn't going..... But Freya is a worthy liason/peacemaker. She's hardly left the area of the gate and often lays on the floor and sticks her head under the bottom opening until Seamus comes and sniffs.

But all this is very confusing to the kidlets. I have Seamus gated in their sleeping hallway and last night they had to sleep wherever they wanted to. They had no idea what to do. And I'm trying not to pay too much attention to Seamus without offering the usual attention to my other two. Thor in particular is being a brat and very pushy to me and hostile towards Seamus, who isn't that nice to Thor either.

And middle........he seems to want the attention, at least from me. He bounces with such pleasure, his tail wagging furiously, a stupid grin on his face, whenever I'm in sight. And mostly I keep the other two with me in another room so he has a fair amount of quiet time for himself. But when he's finished bouncing, he's been walking to the door, facing it, looking over his shoulder at me, then facing it again. I take that as he wants to go out...perhaps not to take the big chance of peeing but to familiarize himself with where he is. So I oblige...tho' my hip, bottom and leg ache like heck. No fun falling down stairs, but you should see the lovely colors of purple, green, yellow and blue. *teehee*

However, I'm very pleased with our boy. No, he's nowhere near 'cured' but at least he's trying to meet me halfway. You can all clap your respective hands for him as it's mostly your tips that have helped.

Now, where is that bottle of Ibuprofin.........................??


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

What a difference a day makes. I am so happy to read that things have improved.

When we rescued our poor, abused little girl she wouldn't go pee until she absolutely had too, no matter how many times we walked her.

I think taking your other dog with you will give him the idea he can go whenever he's outside. Poor Rylee was chained to a dog house and had to lay in her pee and poop. I think that is why she held it for so long. Once she figured it out everything was OK...

I bet tonight when he see that you can pee pee outside he's going to get the drift...remember, he was probably peeing in his kennel at the shelter. He has to make the adjustment.

Now, all we need to do it get the two boys more friendly...but you can take your time with that...

Seamus sounds as if he's going remarkly well for all he's been through...

CONGRATULATIONS to you and to everyone that has given such great advice...Judy


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

I had a dog that would not pee outside. It turned out she was paper trained and would wait until she got into the house to pee on the paper. You can put some paper down to see if he shows interest in it. Also some rescues hold it very long during the first few days - I guess it is the stress. You'll have to be patient with him.

I cannot even count how many 80lbs dogs I carried/dragged up and down the stairs...


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

My dog trainer would say that calling him negative nicknames like hellboy, etc., will only ingrain into your mind a negative attitude of him. The freezing in place, paws on head is called 'learned helplessness' and is what an animal does when they fully expect to be killed at any moment. 

When I adopted my extremely fearful Rocky, who used to scream like a woman, and his sister Jessie, I had to learn not to use harsh tones on them ever again. I was mad at my trainer for scolding me for this and saying I was using 'this tone' on my dogs and I thought 'you should hear me yell at my DH!' but she was right. I didn't realize that these dogs are extremely sensitive to the tones of our voice. So I began training them in whispers because a whisper has no 'tone' to it and it worked wonderfully. I still have to work on my husband not to admonish them or scold them at all, ESPECIALLY when they are exhibiting undesirable behavior. If you give that behavior any observable reaction, especially negative, they will continue it! Negative attention is still attention and that is what he wants and probably safe to say, is all he's ever had and knows how to elicit.

So maybe try neutralizing your tones with him. I am still amazed today at how this seemingly small adjustment on part (and it was an adjustment) made such a difference to my Rocky and his sister. Since they are incompatible right now and have to be kept separate at all times, we have to switch them in and out of the crates in shifts. When it's Rocky's turn to come out, he is so frantic and crying and pawing that you'd think he was insane. But I just calmly say 'Rocky sit' over and over, which he can barely hear, but it calms him down and he sits and then I open the crate.

He is so grateful for the calm, positive or neutral tones I talk to him with, it is a wonderful calming effect. Any yelling of any kind, even neutral yelling (to someone in distance) is very scary to him! These dogs, although able to rend tremendous damage to us or themselves if they wanted, are still deathly afraid of us and I think it is something many people often forget. That dogs live in a state of controlled fear as domesticated animals with us. We tend to not recognize it because of their ability to be dangerous.

Just MHO. You've got an abused child on your hands. He needs a lot of heavenly patience. If I were you, I'd buy some vodka and marinate some martinis and blow off a little steam after all you've both been through!


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

A note before bedtime (much earlier than normal for me, for sure, but my body hurts):

I tried taking Freya and Seamus out together. Freya peed, Seamus crawled into the bushes and burrowed himself in. Talked him out, we took a few more steps, Seamus repeated his actions. Did this several times, very unlike the reasonably free walking we had achieved earlier by ourselves. Freya pooped, Seamus hiding under the bushes. It was an effort just to get him home again with him falling down and playing possum every few feet. It was worth a try but I think he does better with just me for now. 

As for speaking to my animals... Strange thing but when both my daughters were born, from the time they lay across my stomach for the first time, I spoke to them the way I would speak to an equal; i.e. someone my age. I never baby-talked them, never used one-syllable words, never treated them like lesser small beings. I spoke to them as though I expected them to understand. Both grew up uber-intelligent and with amazing vocabularies. It was my younger daughter that saw me through the coma from my brain hemorrhage while attending classes at a Uni three hours away .. and passed all her classes with A's and B's. She helped me recover my own totally lost speech post-coma. 

I have always spoken to the dogs the same way. I don't yell (hollered at my ex-husband much more often....teehee) though at times my voice is more 'stern' than cheerful, especially and usually towards Thor, who tends to get pushy and try to be the alpha now and then. I will admit, I have had to cajole Seamus just to get up off the ground, but once up, it's back to "Okay, kids, let's head for home" in an everday tone of voice. 

With Seamus, I think I've discovered he responds just fine if it's only me in his space. The minute either of the other two dogs, even placid, kind Freya, is anywhere close to him, he freezes in fear. So for the time being, I'm going to follow my instincts and keep them separate in all their activities. Thor and Freya will be treated as they are every day...and Seamus will be treated singly until he's completely (or as completely as it's possible to get him) secure with me. Then I will introduce the two worlds to each other, and cross my paws. It means I will have to do the work of two people but his life is worth it to me. I want however long is left of it to be as happy, safe and secure as it can be. Let's just hope MY life lasts long enough. *giggles*

But Strongheart, I must admit that I will find a bottle of Guinness in the deeps of my fridge and plop my feet up for a while now and then. If that isn't strong enough, I still have a bottle of 35 year old Scotch.









On that note, I'm going for the stronger stuff, my heavy duty meds with codeine in it, and heading off to find my heating pad and a good book. Goodnight, gentle people.


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

Well you said you scolded him for peeing inside. That's what I'm referring to. I did not realize I was speaking harshly to my dogs because I was just raising my voice a little, being emphatic I thought. But that's all it took to destroy their confidence. Plus your characterization of him as Hellboy, crazy coot, etc., betrays you...it just takes some re-examination to discover that you are just being human and your frustration is coming out in your voice (as it did in your post) because he is reacting to *something*. No need to take it as an insult, I did when my trainer pointed it out, I was crushed and pissed for a while. But she was right, as soon as I stopped scolding, their fear stopped. I thought because I was only exhibiting 1 degree of what my own mother would have exhibited (did you see "Sibyl"?), I was doing really well but it wasn't good enough. It doesn't mean you aren't the best mother on Earth and don't think of him as an equal. It just means he's not convinced yet that you are probably not like any other human he's known yet. So for me, it was too hard to not put a scolding tone in my voice, even so barely noticeable, I had to whisper. And so I started to sing commands too. My trainer is a top positive trainer in the country (and my dog was featured in the latest issue of Training Secrets for GSDs "Popular Dogs" series - just little boast there







-shameless, sorry, still so PROUD of her) and I have rescued two pretty sad sack GSDs (one for whom we were her fourth home at only 15 mos.) and the other who'd been trained through punishment. So I'm not trying to be miss know it all, I just learned that I really had to rethink everything that I do. And it's been great for all the beings here. 

But anyway, you and Seamus the GSD mix will look back on this day in wonderment for all the progress you've made in only a few weeks. Take heart! We're all rooting for ya! Yea!









And I might buy some bubbly tomorrow night to celebrate for you two plus a few other things we have to celebrate around here including just being so blessed with our 4 awesome dogs (and to try and stay warm, a la the bartender on the Titanic- so danged cold tonight!)


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Baggage (The Meaning of Rescue)

By Evelyn Colbath(c)1995 Baggage All rights reserved 
Now that I'm home, bathed, settled and fed,
All nicely tucked in my warm new bed,
I'd like to open my baggage,
Lest I forget,
There is so much to carry,
So much to regret.

Hmmm...Yes, there it is, right on the top,
Let's unpack Loneliness, Heartache and Loss,
And there by my perch hides Fear and Shame.
As I look on these things I tried so hard to leave,
I still have to unpack my baggage called Pain.
I loved them, the others, the ones who left me,
But I wasn't good enough - for they didn't want me.

Will you add to my baggage?
Will you help me unpack?
Or will you just look at my things,
And take me right back?
Do you have the time to help me unpack?
To put away my baggage, to never repack?
I pray that you do - I'm so tired you see,
But I do come with baggage,
Will you still want me?

--------------------
I met my Kramer-picked him out all myself. I took him to Petsmart to get his things and he took the biggest, stinkiest dump ever. Got him home and he peed a pool of urine in the kitchen. Gave him a bath because he smelled. He whined all night. Went to work and came home to poop on the floor and a dog on the couch who had broken through his barricade. He could not be crated. He tore up my landlord's carpet and I lost my security deposit. He screamed in obedience classes. He ran away from home. He pushed me around. He tried to attack my little cousins. That was Month 1. Fast forward 14 years-my old guy is laying in an x-pen after emergency surgery and I am grateful for that. I am nervously awaiting a biopsy result for him. He has lost me more security deposits, had a few more close behavioral calls, and each and every day I have to make sure he knows it really is me who is in charge. He is dominant fear aggressive. He is the most wonderful dog and the very best teacher-he has helped me through times that I could not have gotten through without him-because I am not always the best person in the world-and he doesn't hold me to any such standard. The best gifts don't come in the nicest packages. It's always, always, always about the dog.


----------



## 4dognight (Aug 14, 2006)

Jean,

You just said it all....it takes time and who knows what this dog has been through. I know one thing . He will be forevermore grateful that you removed him from his awful past. It may be a year before the true seamus emerges. There has been some wonderful advice given here. I will add time, patience ,love, a good bottle of wine and this GSD forum. 

Cindy


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Excellent posts Strongheart and Jean! (Strongheart if you weren't so far, I would swear we have the same trainer!)

Jean...you hit it home! I think it's safe to say a large majority of us have gone through our share of issues. Mya came to me at age 5 with a ton of baggage. And I, being a complete novice, this being my first dog as an adult...and my very first GSD, sat on my porch MANY times crying. Wish I had known about this forum back then! She had severe separation anxiety, completely destroyed my house (which included tearing the door jams right off). But, I have to say, my heart went out to her...and I loved her even more. It takes time and patience. If I could work it out...anyone could. I had no support, had to figure it out on my own. It took about a year...but today she is the perfect dog...and all her issues are gone. I am so grateful that we found eachother...she has given to me much more than I have given to her. The rewards are great. Take it one day at a time.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Wow, sounds like Seamus is already starting to bond with you. The dog to dog dynamics are going to take time but if he is learning that you are his leader then I am guessing that things will progress at a good pace. Take care of the injury...I hope it isn't too painful


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Strongheart....you're 100% correct that I scolded him when he peed on the living room floor and I'm the first to admit it. But bear in mind, I had just driven 12 hours through a snow storm, had just had to lock up my two dogs (who were very confused as I had been gone for hours and they were so happy to see me) before I brought Seamus into the house, had just fought to give him a bath and frankly, I was just plain exhausted. I had known bringing him home late at night was going to be a problem for all of us, especially me. It was like that the first night with Freya too. But a good night's sleep helped all of us.

As for the nicknames I have for him, that's just my wacky sense of humor. It actually is an affectionate name, if you knew me. You can interpret that as you want it but I know what it means to me. If I were frustrated or upset, I'd call him "Seamus Graybeard" in a less than friendly manner. If it sounds like frustration here, it probably is, but here is the only place where I actually rant and show it. 

But thanks for being concerned...now go get that bubbly. This household is doing fine and I hope some of the other miraculous rescues recently mentioned on the site are doing as well.

Some fun news though. He's a Houdini. At 8:00 this morning, I heard someone knocking at the front door. It was my neighbor...holding Seamus by the leash he's been dragging around (I guess that leash came in handy in a way no one expected). He had been out romping around the neighborhood, the door to his hall was wide open and cold air blowing in. Did HE open the door? Who knows. 

I wonder if he finally peed or pooed while he was out. I wish I knew. I'd like to let him join the rest of the household for short periods of time. He and Thor have stopped growling at each other, probably because Thor is less of a pain in the neck than Kat's puppy pug. But hate to set him free just to pee again in the living room. *grins*

And several times today, he actually SAT on command. Both Kat and I have been working with him and he is in much better frame of mind...not as hyper though still tending to hide in corners when something upsets him (hard to tell what those might be as we see nothing different happening around us but apparently he does). 

Things are progressing.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to hear he's settling in a little better--that's really quick! But that's scary that he let himself out! Thank goodness he didn't wander far and that your neighbor saw him and knew where he belonged! So many rescues get lost in the first few days they're in their new home. Guess you'll have to lock your door now to keep Seamus in! And I imagine he did use the outdoor facilities. They can't hold it forever! 

Do you have a long line you could put him on? Maybe until he learns to go on a leash he will go on that. 

And, Kat...that would be your daughter? Guess she knows he's there now, huh?


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Dont put it past him that he can open doors.......I had one that not only could open any door in the house, but the refrigerator as well..........The other thought is maybe Thor tried to "set him up"? He wouldnt be the first dog to try to "eliminate" his competition and he seems a pretty smart guy....


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I have heard of shepherds who will crush door knobs to let themselves out You have a smart boy there. Isn't it wonderful that he let one of your neighbors catch him? He must have stayed near home which is great and perhaps he will be a good off lead dog some day. Pretty funny thought that Thor may have set him free. It sounds like things are progressing quickly.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hey my good woman down there in the wilds of NC ...i am SO glad to hear that things are working out! take care...


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

WE GOT A POOP!!! OK, a tiny little plop but a poop nevertheless. Still no pee though. Good boy, Seamus! 

I feel like one of those nurses in hospital who asks 20 times a day 'have you passed gas yet? have you urinated yet? have you had a bowel movement yet' *giggling*


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That not peeing thing isn't healthy. What if you let him drag a couple of leashes attached together? He is going to have some serious health problems if he doesn't start peeing.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

WE NEED A FORUM NAMED "Daily Journal" to keep a record of all the small gains/losses every day.(just a thought)

DAY 3

Seamus PEED, such a long one that his supporting hind leg was shaking with the strain. This was followed by a lovely poo. Is there anywhere else in the world that people sit and talk about how good or bad a pee and a poo are? *snickers*

As has been suggested on this site, I have him tethered to my waist. *SNORTS* That works if a dog walks with you willingly but it can be very tiring if the dog digs in his heels and refuses to move or worse, runs in a circle and tangles your legs. Right now he's sitting next to me (oh how I've praised "sit" like it was the gold at the end of the rainbow) and quiet. 

Thor and Freya have tiptoed up to sniff occasionally but basically are staying clear of him. I'm thinking it has something to do with his battle scarred face...he's tough and unbelieving strong for such a half-pint. Of course I'm kidding about why they're standing back but he has seen a tough life.

Kat (my daughter) and I have determined he's either part chow or part husky....he has all the stubborness of the chow and the pelt around his neck as well as odd coloring. Some GSD b&t but a creamy curled-over-his-back tail. As I said, he's small with GSD conformation but really looks interesting with his weird coloring and curly tail. I know, I know....pictures. When have I had time? The few pics I've taken don't show how much of something other is a part of him.

End of journal for now....







for the poo and pee!


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Yahoo..congrats on the poo and pee...every little step counts.


----------



## Kaylas Mom (Oct 6, 2007)

Pictures please...Happy to hear he is doing better, Congrats on the pee and poo...LOL


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

glad to know all the boy's elimination systems are GO, so to speak. 

re: shelter description -vs- reality...my jeni's shelter picture (head only) looked EXACTLY like a german shepherd dog. in reality only jeni's erect ears look like a german shepherd. i believe she is a shepherd/greyhound mix. her legs are brindle, and she runs like the wind. when i first got her i'd call her "bat-girl", now her nickname is "sausage-girl", and i'll bet you can guess why. miss jeni-take-a-ride likes to eat!

as always, take care and many blessings...


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I have heard that when greyhounds retire they love to lay on the couch and watch tv


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

Hatterasser, re: the letting himself out, my GSD Jess can open doors. She just uses her paws like hands, standing on hind legs, and turns the handle with her paws. She did this the first week. I watched her do it, she's amazing! I didn't stop her and say anything, I just stood there with my jaw on the floor, I was *impressed*! 

Also be careful of windows. We went to a horror movie ("I Am Legend") and left them uncrated in the sunroom. Came back and they had busted 5 windows! They saw squirrels (backyard full of acorns...nothing but acorns and dirt) and the squirrel buggers actually taunt them and throw acorns at them. So they tried to go through the windows! Luckily there were screens on them so they didn't get cut (small amount of blood on wall though). Some dogs will go straight through a window if they see something.

Also, when we crate Jess, we have to padlock it...twice! Just one padlock on the bottom and she can still get out if she really wants to. Two padlocks is no guarantee. Once we came home after a short errand and she nearly had the top off the doubly pad-locked crate! OMG! So think wolf containment.

Do you have deer around your house? He might bolt through a window over that. Well anyway, it's an adventure isn't it? Still haven't had my bubbly. 

And re: poop--my DH and I have at length discussions *during dinner* about the dog's poops. We have a 'poop log' (no pun intended) where we record everytime we see the dogs poop and when they ate or went out. When the poop looks really good, he takes a picture of it! He comes in one day all excited saying "Jessie's poop was so good, it stood up all on its own!" and had a photo to prove it! 

So yea, that's normal (right?) (maybe not, who cares?) 

And one more warning/tip: always throw out those little bags of dessicants you find in the premium treat bags. Every now and then, they will manage to abscond with a bag of treats and rip open the bag and eat everything in it incudling the dessicant which makes the really sick!


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Journal Day 4 (Is that all it's been??)

I know it's early days to become depressed but I am. Seamus is like one of those mythological children who's been raised in the wild, and has no idea how to live in civilized society. He does not seem anything like a 'pack' animal, but rather he is a loner. 'Alpha' means nothing to him....he does his own thing regardless of what I do or say. As I said, basically he ignores me. If I manage to hold him, pet him, stroke him, scratch his ears or belly near me for a minute, his head turns and stares off in the distance and acts as though no one is there, all the while stiff as a board. He even ignores treats. What dog ignores treats?

He likes for me to sit on the floor in 'his' hallway while he runs around ignoring me. But he listens to nothing, makes no eye contact. And I can't spend hours sitting on a floor. My dogs are already suffering from my separating them from me for long periods while I focus on Seamus.

And while in the hall (with the glass door open but the gate in place), Thor and Freya came to the gate, doing nothing...just watching. Seamus went beserk and lunged towards the gate snarling, barking, growling in Thor's face. Thor reacted in like manner and the gate was almost torn from the wall while they attacked each other over the top of it. I told Thor 'Back' and he backed off but Seamus went on antagonizing him. I finally caught the leash Seamus drags around with him and pulled him back as well. 

Walking him is a trial of endurance. He pulls so hard that I have to stop and just stand to rest my legs and arms from the strain. Or he stops and refuses to move, all the while pulling intensely on the leash. He has pooed again but we're back to not peeing today. I did try the 'act like a tree' bit (*chuckles*)....Seamus in turn acted like a statue, his back turned to me and straining on the leash. Neither one of us moved for a full five minutes. I gave up first. It was cold outside and I still needed to take Thor and Freya out.

Kat, as I knew she would, thinks I am insane. I have two huge dogs, who in some ways have their own small issues, both being rescued dogs, and she is concerned (rightfully) for my health and welfare taking on Seamus. She asked what I would do if I couldn't handle him. The only thing I was 100% sure of is that he'll never go into a shelter again. Beyond that, I don't know. But I am wondering if I've taken on more than I can chew. 

I have to go to work today and tomorrow...I'm paralyzed with fear of what I will come home to. The gate and the glass door broken? Thor and Seamus bloody? *sighs* 

Ah well, I'm just ranting. I'm permanently exhausted, I ache all over, I want life to go back to normal and I just needed to lean on all your shoulders for a few minutes.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Do you have a crate? I am concerned for Seamus and Thor and Freya's safety while you're gone. Can you crate Seamus or Thor?

And we all understand it's hard. He probably was raised in the wild by a pack of nasty, mean people. And it takes a long time and a lot of patience on your part to help him let go of that. The big breakthrough with Basu was the day he put his nose in my hand. I put my hand out for him to lick (he never got that concept) and he plunked his nose into my hand and closed his eyes and went to sleep.







But his nose was covered in snot and he was drooling and had a sore under his nose because he was so scared and worried. And he also would not take treats at first and then later not under duress (which included almost anything) either. 

Try chicken liver, raw meat or cheese. Something really smelly and disgusting.


----------



## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

> Quote:What dog ignores treats?


Mine does, for one! I just donated a huge box of various never-opened and almost-full boxes of all kinds of treats to the local Humane Society - Kaiser wouldn't touch them - and he's not even a dog with "issues" - well, maybe a few, but nothing compared to Seamus! Maybe Seamus is ball- or toy- motivated? Or maybe he doesn't even know what those things are....

I wish I had some advice for you, but I really don't. To me, the crate sounds like a great idea for all involved - you, Seaumus and your other two dogs. Maybe Seamus would even enjoy having his own "den" until he gets used to things at your house. Kaiser isn't crate-trained, but we've had the crate set up ever since we brough him home and he does like to go in his crate once in awhile just to be by himself. I put a dark sheet over the top and sides to make it more den-like for him and he will go in there to sleep every now and then. 

Unfortunately 4 days at your house is not enough time to undo a lifetime of problems for this boy. 

I wish you all the luck in the world that things work out.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

My dog will ignore food when very stressed and she loves food. Stress can cause alot of what you are seeing but then again maybe no one ever taught him anything. You are 'only' in day 4 which probably seems like a lifetime. You are not ranting we are here to support you so say what you need to and maybe someday you can turn these posts into a book Do you have a crate? I would crate him when you are gone and put padlocks or as I did peton (spelling) clips from the camping or hardware store on the crate .... not just the door. I would put him away from the other dogs so they can't see each other

Oh yes one other thing is the Nothing in Life is Free method. I feed all new dogs all their food out of my hands for doing something I ask of them for the first few weeks. He will learn you are the boss this way. If he doesn't want the treat offered he will get hungry enough eventually to take the food out of your hands. He may not want to take the treat out of your hand right now due to his fear issues.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LUV_GSDs
> Oh yes one other thing is the Nothing in Life is Free method. I feed all new dogs all their food out of my hands for doing something I ask of them for the first few weeks. He will learn you are the boss this way. If he doesn't want the treat offered he will get hungry enough eventually to take the food out of your hands. He may not want to take the treat out of your hand right now due to his fear issues.


I use the NILIF method so that my dogs understand I am the leader and that there are fair and consistent rules in the house. Maybe that's what you meant buy "boss," but to me there's a big difference. When you have a dog who has an unknown past which certainly involved abuse I think you have to approach things very differently in terms of your expectations of the dog and of your relationship with the dog. It is a daily and sometimes hourly coming to terms but the sooner you understand that the sooner you will more fully come to an understanding with the dog. Seamus is his own dog. I'm sorry that things are so frustrating and stressful. With a few exceptions, your experience is much like what I've experienced with some of my fosters and personal adoptees. 

Chin up and remember that Seamus is his own dog!


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

I've been reading all the posts here and I see that folks are giving you some good advice...I can't imagine how hard it would be to do what you're doing. I just hope you have the strength the keep it up...Poor Seamus...can you imagine what he's been through to feel like he does.

I am hoping that you return from work and all is well...I will be checking in later to see if there is an update.

About the walking problem...my friend recommends the use of a *halti.*..it is a way to stop the dog from pulling...check it out on the Internet. Might be a good idea for Seamus and you...so strength involved...it's a very gentle way to stop problems on the leash. In fact my 72 yr. old sister used it with their border collie as a pup and she was amazed...GOOD LUCK, Judy


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Yes by boss I meant leader. Seamus must have gone through alot in his life. I am betting that calmness and kindness will win him over but it might take alot of time. I had a foster who was abused and I suspect horribly but he loved humans. I wondered if he didn't have to fight for every scrap of food as his biggest problem involved food and he ate what ever he could find including frogs, turtles, mice, moles...pretty disgusting.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

well i am so sorry to hear the frustration, disappointment, and depression you're feeling, though i certainly understand. our intentions are so honorable, but the reality of a dog who comes to us so damaged can just be overwhelming. 

from the little experience i've had, it's appeared to me as though rescues can suffer from what i call "sensory overload", being shuttled one place to another, never knowing what's next or what to expect. so, first the disclaimer again...i'm no expert...but first of all i think the crate (hard-side, bomb-proof ), is an absolute necessity, and maybe if you just give him his own space, maybe even in a room by himself, not expose him at all to your other dogs, offer food and toilet on a regular basis (but don't expect anything, give him a reasonable time to eat or go, then back to his "den"), don't take him for walks, or out with the other dogs, just give him a safe space to decompress and absorb the fact that no one is going to hurt him and nothing unexpected is going to happen. that, in turn, might decrease your frustration level, which he can certainly feel. 

computer's acting weird, don't want to loose the whole post, ending it now, take care, we're here for you, there are solutions to every problem. many blessings to you and your kat liz.


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

I think it would be helpful for you emotionally to take a step back and lower your expectations. He has made terrific progress already but he won't turn into the perfect pet overnight. 5 days is nothing. It is not that unusual to get a rescue dog in this condition, and it takes time for them to recover. I usually give some quiet time to the new fosters so that they can adjust to a new home. Eating, sleeping and potty breaks with some walking will help. The dogs like to have a routine and it gives them safety.
I would make sure that he is safely separated from the other dogs while you are gone. It is best that he is crated. I reinforce every crate with cable ties (the sides that open and separate). I use clips on the door and in the tray section. I had dogs that broke out though the tray.
I use small pieces of smelly hot dog as treats, it works much better than doggie cookies.
Look forward to the small improvements and give yourself and the dog credit for that. 
The changes are often in sudden steps, something clicks and the dog's behavior changes.
I would wait with exposing him to other dogs until he is less stressed out. You should take some time to bond with him first.
Try to offer him different toys and figure out what he likes. Again, it may take some time for him to figure it out as he has probably never seen toys.


----------



## Bouchillon (Sep 15, 2007)

You might try a Gentle Leader. It is similiar to the Halti, but is more difficult for them to get it off, therefore a bit safer to walk them in.
Hope things are better with your gang. As for Seamus not paying attention to you, he may not have decided that he is your dog yet, and you are basically nobody to him right now. Remember our GSD's can be aloof, something we see in rescue dogs. Once he decides he's home, it should be a different relationship.


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

I can totally relate. I felt the same way when we brought Rocky home. Everything was perfect, and then along came Rocky which slowly transformed his sister into a raving maniac. After 6 weeks, the fights started. Each fight I would break up took more energy than before and I had to spend 3 days in bed to recover. Breaking up 2 GSDs who sincerely want to kill eachother is a feat!

So I was very depressed. I felt bad for both of them to be crated a lot, switching in and out. So we bought them great outdoor kennels and I felt better. Then slowly it all became second nature, the management and the slow introduction of CC&D. Now I am only occasionally sad that we can't have them all together at once. But we will get there. So take heart. This is the toughest part. You haven't found a high value enough treat for him. Try canned chicken. Cheese (that kind that comes in a whipped cream type of can). Liver. There is a food he will react to, you haven't found it. Even try carrots! 

Maybe try to think of all of this as a blessing in disguise. Your love of dogs drove you to save a dog, sight unseen. Now your love of dogs is forcing you explore the domestic wolf mentality to it's very core. This will blow your mind. You're grieving the past, the perfect state of your wolf pack that is now in turmoil. That's expected. Building a new pack will blast your Universe wide open. Seek the help of experts, like a positive trainer, different schools of training. They all have value to some degree. Positive is more proven in terms of rehab and changes your whole life. 

If you would like, I can send him some serious Reiki. But I would need a fairly decent photo. Don't poo poo it, Reiki is some awesome stuff. Let the Universe help you. Your boy is listening to his new world which is why he seems so distant. Eye contact is confrontational to wolves so he's just being polite! He is listening to every sound which you cannot hear. When he is more used to it, he will let his guard down. Hang in there! Give it some time. Don't bail. You might need a Leerburg crate so he doesn't hurt himself (again - think wolf containment). Count your blessings and lead your pack so they are all less nervous and have confidence in you. 

We're all here for you!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am pretty dogcentric when it comes to these situations. We rescue for them. If I want a dog for me, I'll buy it with all the health and temperament testing. 

I understand that it's frustrating, but looking at it from the dog's point of view, with no cognitive abilities to process...it's terrifying. To live in fear is toxic-it is very difficult to reverse the chemical cocktail that is released. 

The dog is in survival mode. He has had to rely on himself and only himself as his leader for who knows how long. If he trusts someone, he could die. Black/white. He's not thinking how lucky he is or what an ingrate he's being. He's just trying to stay one step ahead of you and two bonded dogs. 

I leave dogs alone. I let them watch me and my dogs and instead of making them respond to me, I respond to them. No calendar of where they should be when, no expectations. Patience, love, time.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

thinking about you and sending positive thoughts and energy your way again today! take care, many blessings...


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> I leave dogs alone. I let them watch me and my dogs and instead of making them respond to me, I respond to them. No calendar of where they should be when, no expectations. Patience, love, time.


I like your thinking here Jean, maybe this can help me with my own issues...


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 5 Journal

When does going to work feel like a vacation? When you have a dog named Seamus.









I placed a door size piece of plywood in front of the glass paneled door and the gate. Instant silence. What they couldn't see didn't bother any of the three. When I came home from work, all was peaceful. Useful that I'm restoring my house post-hurricane...all that kind of stuff is just laying around.

I have a crate but he absolutely hated being locked up in it. I've decided that the hallway (4' by 20') works just fine. I don't want him to feel crowded as he did in the shelter. He eats, drinks and sleeps in there...and stands on his hind legs to watch the cat outside the window. But I worry about isolation...he's been alone so long that isolating him like this seems almost cruel tho' I see the value of it at this time. I 'visit' with him every half hour, even if just to sit on the floor as a presence. Sometimes he comes and stands next to me for a second or two while I scratch his ears but basically he just runs (bounces) from one end to the other.

I discovered that a retractable leash worked wonders. The short leash kept him close to me and he strained and pulled constantly to put distance between us. By releasing him to at least 16 feet away from me, he trots along quite nicely. When he pulls at the other end, I've been stopping and standing still until he runs back to see what's holding me up.  Then off we go again, with Seamus occasionally glancing over his shoulder to see if I'm still there. He peed and pooed very well this way last night and this morning. So I won't worry about any other collars right now like the Halti or the GL. He doesn't function well with anything around his neck and as long as the halter and the retractable leash are working so well, why mess with it right now. Perhaps in the future.

There seems to be (so far) no one toy or distraction that interests him (other than Callie the Cat, of course). He's hyperactive but it seems to be limited to running up and down his hallway and jumping up to look out the window. I've been trying NILIF but you have to have his attention for it to have any results and that's the last thing I have from him. I haven't tried alternative snacks yet but I'll try some cheese and hot dogs tonight and this weekend. I have to work again today so won't have much time to spend worrying about it.

At the moment, he's on the same regimen as Thor and Freya, although he has been going out more often until he began to pee and poo on the same schedule as they have. He eats at the same time, he walks the same time and bedtime means lights out and the house quiets down. I have found (especially having had an ADHD daughter) that setting parameters and keeping things as close to the same time of day for everything works very well for dogs too.

But working yesterday truly was like a vacation. I needed to just get away from the constant stress for several hours. I feel much better today. *smiles* And it is such a help to come home and read all your posts. It is a great help to have all your moral support. I've rarely in my life asked for help for anything so this is a first for me too. And to have it given so freely is a blessing. 

I suffer from Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (a collagen related disorder) that keeps my joints and body in constant pain. I've recovered from a heart seizure, a brain hemorrage (that had me in a coma for a month and took all my speech/vocabulary from me and included cutting away part of my skull to ease the pressure) and an artery that burst in my stomach (doctors called it an Act of God as there was no explanation for it). I'm 67 years old, 5'4" tall, weigh 117 lbs.....and still hanging tough. If I can make it, so can Seamus. Just have to apply the same tough hanging-in- there attitude to the poor old boy. 

Does anyone know any of the moderators here? Could they set up a forum for GSD owner journals like this one (so we don't clutter up the regular forums)?


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

wow, you are a brave, brave, woman! glad to see things are going a bit better with seamus. have a busy day/evening today, just popped in to read day 5's journal entry. if mods don't want to create a new category, is the place for these entries possibly "where are they now"? as always, take care and many blessings...


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

It sounds to me if things are really going quite well...I know it's really hard for you but I think that you are doing things just right for Seamus.

I hope that when you get home tonight things will be just as good as they were yesterday...and like you said, you got away from the house and had some time to yourself.

I agree with your thinking that if the halter and retractable leash work, don't change it.

I think that Seamus is doing really well adjusting.

Our Cody never was an affectionate boy...he was satisfied laying in another room and if he wanted pets he would come to get them...and that wasn't often...he was more like Seamus, a loner. Our GSD, Kayla on the other hand was glued to our sides...

I will be anxious for tomorrows update. I can understand if you're tired tonight. You too have been through quite alot...BLESS YOU for working with this dog...Judy


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

looking back at you when he gets to the end of the lead is progress You two sound like you were meant to find each other...you can appreciate how tough life can be and that when strong one can recover from it and move on. And yes some GSDs are aloof...my old girl was a great dog but always went to her bed when she wanted to lie down and never pestered me for attention. Have a good night's sleep and know that we are all sending good vibes your way. You are a wonderful person.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

wondering how it's going, waiting for day 6 journal entry...and, of course, wishing you the best!


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Me too...I think we are all waiting to hear what today held for our boy


----------



## Kaylas Mom (Oct 6, 2007)

Waiting for day 6 journal entry too.


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Me four...


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 6 of the oddysey of Seamus....Not too much to report

I came home last night after stopping to purchase something interesting as a treat. I had tried feta cheese, a big sacrifice as it's my favorite but it is smelly so thought it might work. He pretty much ignored it, running up and down his hallway. Watching Callie and Misty outside was more interesting. I brought home some Vienna sausages, saved them for today when we both had more time. 

This morning I offered him a bit of one but he had to sit first. He ignored me, ran down the hall and back but the sausage intrigued him. I finally placed my arms in the bend of his legs and said "Sit" as I bent him to a sitting position. I'd rather bend their legs than push on the top of their backs as HD is often an issue and it's a kinder way that doesn't hurt as much. When he finally sat and stayed sitting, I gave up the sausage and praised him mightily. By the third try, he sat on his own. However, he had forgotten the NIFIL rule by dinner time. *chuckles* But he will do it for sausages. That's a beginning, I think.

We walked last night again and he pooed but didn't pee. That concerned me as he was going to have to go throught the night holding it. He did and when we walked this morning, he spent ages just peeing. Then he pooed as well.

But an interesting turn of events. He wandered ahead to the length of the leash as usual BUT..BUT...he'd look back at me and then run back and PLAY and wait for hugs. Then off he'd go again. When he began pulling too hard, I'd stop until he stopped pulling long enough to glance back at me. Then I'd click my tongue and call his name (that's what I do with my other two when I want them to come to me). He got it at once and romped back to my side to play/hug/lick some more. I was stunned but I told him "Good boy, Seamus, good come" and off we'd go again.

I use his name all the time. Sounds silly but it's "Seamus, good morning, Seamus. How are you this morning, Seamus. Seamus, come here and give me a hug." But he now seems to know what his name is. It always reminds me of a cartoon we used to have hanging on the fridge door. Top half had a man speaking to his dog. "Nana, you have been a bad girl. Nana, you chewed up my shoe. That's a no-no, Nana" Bottom half had what the dog heard. "Nana, blah blah blah. Nana, blah blah blah. Blah blah blah, Nana" *laughing* Well that may be all Seamus hears too but he does know his name.

He and Freya share no aggression but he and Thor are still at odds with one another. Freya can lay her head on the gate and Seamus might run up long enough to touch her nose before trotting off again. But Thor cannot come anywhere near the gate without both baring teeth, snarling, growling and lunging. This will take some time but there's no hurry. When I think the time is right, I will bring all three together and have them 'Sit, Stay' next to each other. But that's a long way off....Seamus has to learn to sit and stay first. *snickers*

However, I am in a far less stressful mood due to even the small pluses that have occurred. And I think Seamus is sort of settling in, sort of.... I hope so as I'd like to have my hall back. Had to do laundry stepping over and around the bouncing ball named Seamus.


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

These are HUGE steps, give yourself and Seamus credit for it.
Well done, mom!!!


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

you are doing a WONDERFUL job...i applaud your efforts and wish you much continued success!


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Okay, brief update....

I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, given Thor's touchy tummy. The minute he's stressed by anything (the grass growing too fast, paint drying too slowly), his bowels turn to mush. Diarrhea is the usual follow-up. 

Tonight Thor grumbled, got anxious, began pacing and all of a sudden dribbled some vile smelling stuff on the living room floor. Without a coat (it's 23 deg here) or a light, I dragged him out quickly to finish what he started. Some time later (he went and went) we came back to find that Seamus had broken through his gate and met us at the door. 

Need I say, chaos erupted?!?!? I managed to separate the three of them, got Seamus back into his hallway, noted another, bigger puddle of diarrhea in the kitchen, cleaned it all up and collapsed into my seat. My adrenaline was pumping so hard, I hardly noticed how cold it was outside. 

Well, Thor is back to missing one meal, then getting only boiled rice for his next one, until his tummy straightens out again. The good news is that he went 6 days before he fell apart. When he first came to me 3 years ago, I was cleaning the crate and the floors for 3 straight days. He's learning to handle stress better. *grins* 

And Seamus, the pesky little critter, will have to be watched more closely....he's a regular Houdini about things meant to keep him contained. Up with the plywood again for the night. 

I love my dogs.....truly I do. *stalks off mumbling to self*


----------



## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Diane,
You really are doing so well with everything. It is very tough to bring in a new dog into an established pack, rescue or not IMO.

With a rescue, I have to say that he really needs alot more time. Most rescues/fosters take about 2 weeks to start to settle in better. For as little time as Seamus has been there, he really is doing well. So, 2 weeks to settle in and usually around 2 months is when they finally start to accept and start behaving like they "belong" ... in my experiences at least.

Even if Seamus "doesn't like" the crate, it really may be the best option for the little escape artist.







He can learn to like it, but can't if you don't use it. 

Sorry to hear Thor's tummy was upset by all the goings on. He'll adjust too.

I happened to go back and reread about Channie. I believe that Channie would be grateful also for everything you are doing for Seamus. It is hard. It will get easier with time. Go easy on yourself. Take time to think and even relax. Read up on Clicker training and when Seamus gets a little more relaxed/settled think about trying it.

Sorry you had messes to clean up tonight. Hopefully things will get better quickly. Life will become "normal" again soon







Sleep well!


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

What an evening aren't GSD stomach nerves fun. 

You are doing great for only one week and one dog accepts him already, wow. Thor will come around but it will take time and he will continue to grumble long after the real fights stop. I don't know how you pulled three dogs apart.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

With great difficulty, LUV_GSDs, with great difficulty. 

And Thor's tummy has always been a problem. I have cleaned up more huge lakes of runny, evil smelling slop in his time with me than I changed diapers on my kids (or it seems that way). Vet says there's nothing wrong with him..he's not sick or ailing..he just has a touchy tummy when he's stressed by anything at all. I keep a prescription of metrodanazole (sp?) and give him one tablet, just one, and problem is gone. None of us understand the why of it, we just deal with it.

Achielles CDX...I'm a firm believer in the 'if something is working, why mess with it' approach, and the un-claustrophobic hall works well. Seamus's breaking out of his gate last night was *entirely my fault*. I had left the door open that separates him from the gate while we were all in the house to give the other dogs a chance to eye each other in passing, as it were. With Thor and me out of the house, I imagine Freya, who gets along with Seamus, ran into the kitchen and gave the signal...."Hey, mom and Thor are gone. Come on out." But then, the gate was the last thing I was thinking about when I ran out the door with Thor. *grins*

And thank you for the thoughts on Chan....I truly believe that all my efforts are really a tribute to him.


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

Just checking in to see how your week end is going. I hope that Thor's tummy is settling down...poor guy...but you're right. He did make it six days before he got upset.

I hope that each and every day is alittle better for Seamus. But, it is only one week since he arrived at your house. I think all in all things are going amazingly well.

Now, if only you could get the dogs together...but I know that takes time.

I hope that you are feeling better after your fall. Will keep checking in for updates on your new adventure. Judy


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

Hope everything is going well.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 8 of the Oddysey of Seamus...........

Well, there's not much to report as things are ambling along much the same as they have. I walk Thor and Freya, then I walk Seamus. He is walking just fine on our usual route but when I changed our route this afternoon, he converted back to standing and staring for long periods of time and tugging mightily on the leash. Apparently that's his way of acclimating to new situations; stand like a statue and stare at nothing then attempt to run back to what is familiar. I wonder what he's going to do on the wide open beach the first time I take him there.

He sat tonight for his food. I held his food bowl and refused to tell him sit again and again. It was sit (once) or go hungry. After a few runs up and down the hall, he actually sat at my feet. Good boy, good sit. 

Thor has recovered (naturally) and all three seem to be moving about within feet of each other without the snarling and barking. I gave Seamus some toys and a bone and other than throwing the bone around a few times, toys mean nothing. Poor guy, he never learned how to play, I guess.

He is not as hyperactive as he was either. He still refuses to make eye contact with me but he is calmer and not so bouncy and wild. I still feel guilty about leaving him in his hallway...trying to see what it's like for him. Does he see it as another kennel situation, I wonder. But neither he nor Thor are ready to interact. So it's life in the hallway with frequent visits from mom, just to sit on the floor and try to pet him now and then when he comes close enough, attempts to encourage him to come to me, to sit....well, you all know the game. Change and achievements are minimal though there are small ones here and there, like sitting for his feed bowl tonight. But then, I'm not expecting miracles. 

So I'm thinking that, unless something really major happens, like Seamus biting off Thor's head or something exciting like that *grins*, I may not post every day. 

But I do have to thank you all. You've been my strength this past week. Don't think I could have survived it without all of you boosting my morale.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

diane, what a great job you've done so far! just want to comment about you feeling guilty re leaving him in the hall, and how he sees the hall. do not feel guilty, you are doing him a tremendous favor, i think. i also have a very hard time not ascribing human feelings to my kidz sometimes, cause they seem so human, but i make myself remember they're dogs (well i try to make myself remember). anyway, my point is, imho, the "hall" has/will become, what's really important to this dog, something consistent in his life. he can always count on safety in his hall. he can always count on it to be the same in his hall. no one has ever hurt him in his hall. again, imho, cause i'm relatively new to this as well, consistency is just about THE most important thing to a traumatized dog. a routine they can count on, and someone who expects nothing, but who is finds the smallest gain rewarding! again, thank you for stepping up and saving this dog's life. many blessings to you and your family!


----------



## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

Diane, I hope you post often and with the kind of detail you've given, although it seems far too much to ask more than once a week. 

This is a wonderful account and it's invaluable for people (like me) who want to get involved in rescues in some way but have no idea of what it might entail. 

I await the next installment...


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

As promised, here are a couple of pics of Seamus::::

Out for a walk on his short leash, which he hated.









And his favorite past-time...watching the cats on the porch. Gotta love that splayed stand.









Somebody tell me what his mix is. We're going with shepherd and one of the spitz families (chows, malamutes, huskies, Alaskan spitzes) mostly because of the tail which is generally up over his back and his conformation. His size is about 2/3 the size of my other two monsters as well. Stubborn, feisty, and strong as bull when he pulls on that leash, too. 

Oh, and good news. He actually is beginning to sit more or less whenever told to do so and he played with a squeaky toy today for the first time. Well, I say play....he squeaked it and then commenced to tear it apart. *giggles* But hey, every good change is welcome. It is the first time he has shown any interest in playing.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks for the Seamus fix He is a good looking dog. He looks alot like a GSD. Maybe he is 3/4 GSD with something a bit smaller and with a curly bushy tail.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 11 of the oddysey of Seamus.................

Hmmm, no comments (other than LUV_GSDs') about Seamus's pics? I guess he's not what one would call a beautiful shepherd 'cause he certainly isn't. But he is as cuddly as a small bear. Someday, when he fattens up so his ribs aren't sticking out, he'll be a pretty nice looking guy, even if he is a mix.

Okay, he sits more upon command (once I can settle him down and get his attention), he is playing regularly with his bone and nothing has changed between Thor and him (still aggression between the two).

But eye contact has improved immensely and walking is almost fun now. He is actually looking forward to going out now and sits to allow me to attach his leash. Good boy.

I spoke to my vet last night and he wants to see Seamus ASAP...told me to call the office this morning and tell the gals to set an appt. for Friday morning which I did. Dr. Grossman wants all the paper work that came with Seamus and wants to do a full work up...blood tests, temperment evaluation, etc. I asked him kiddingly if they had Valium for dogs and he answered seriously, 'yes they do...and Paxil too.' I found that amazing but he said, based on his evaluation, that it might be something he would consider if he thought it would help. Don't know whether it would help Seamus but it sure would help me. *grins*

The nice thing about Dr. G. is that he knows I'm a retired old lady with not much income....and besides that, he has a special soft spot for shepherds (has a small shrine to his who crossed the bridge). He also is warm to those who rescue animals (especially shepherds...teehee) so he gives me a lower rate when I need to bring my dogs in to see him. Can't tell you what a blessing that is.

But except for Seamus's hyperactivity (which Dr. G. says sounds like his mix might indeed be from the hyperactive spitz family), stress level for all of us has dropped tremendously. Freya's bowels were a tad runny today but Thor (having swallowed a few tablespoons of Pepto Bismal...and hey, they come in tablet form according to my brother...need to try that) is doing just fine again. Apparently nothing disturbs Seamus's tummy....his poo is remarkably normal.

I have to confess something. I hear all the time that when training to do anything, treats are a big part of it. Umm... I rarely have given treats to any of my dogs. It's a special occasion for them to get treats and usually only to correct a specific problem..and even then, not all the time. *hangs her head in shame* Should I apologize to my kidlets? Am I a bad mom? They seem to do alright without them. They obey simply because I ask them to. But then they're not perfectly trained either, just enough to please me and meet our joint needs. *smiles* Thor and Freya (and now Seamus) get a treat at bedtime....sort of a reward for a day well spent...they know it's coming, run to their blanket, sit, and wait for it. Then everyone flops down and we go to sleep. *sighs* I feel like I'm doing something wrong though.

I'll update this when I get the results from Dr. G.......................


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I think he's gorgeous...and I don't believe a dog has to be a pb to be so either. I love that tail!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Clare (Feb 6, 2005)

I didnt see the pictures! hes a cutie!!!

Definitely keep us posted!


----------



## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: myamomI think he's gorgeous...and I don't believe a dog has to be a pb to be so either. I love that tail!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I agree totally!! I've two mixes myself.









That picture is hilarious!!

I'm so glad to hear things are going a bit better for you.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

In that outside picture I think he looks like a german shepherd mixed with a llama! Very cute! 

I want to see a better picture of his face though.

It sounds like he's doing really well. I would NOT use tranquilizers for him. This is just a normal settling in period. Your other rescues were easy--this is how it usually is with rescues. 

And it's great that he's already playing! He must be starting to feel a lot more comfortable.


----------



## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

He is a beautiful boy! I have a sheltie mix who I think is the most beautiful girl in the world - even at 16-1/2. Yes, Pepto Bismol comes in tablets! I hide it in cream cheese and they don't even chew it first. I actually keep metronidizole (prescription from the vet) around for when they get the soft poops, especially my old girl. The stuff is magic and it's very inexpensive. 

Have you ever heard of "Rescue Remedy"? I've never used it, but I hear wonderful things about it and it's all natural. I'm sure it can be ordered on the internet. Lots of flower essences, etc. to calm them down.

I think you and Seamus have made remarkable progress in the short time he's been there. I love reading your updates, so please keep them going! I'm having problems getting email notifications on my "Watched Topics", so I didn't see that you had posted pictures. Guess I'll have to be more diligent about checking Seamus' thread. And the name fits him perfectly!

And I don't think you're a bad mom at all for not offering treats. Max actually had a trainer who didn't believe in them either. She thought they should mind for the sake of minding, and not have to be bribed. I wasn't quite sure about it at first, but Max loves to please, so he did great without the treats.


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

rescue remedy can be found in the health sections of grocery stores (i.e. I can find it in Wegmens) or if you have a healthfood store.


----------



## Kaylas Mom (Oct 6, 2007)

Awww Seamus is beautiful, sounds like he is doing really well. What a great Mom you are. Can we get more pics PLEASE!!!!!


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

I think Seamus is CUTE! I too love mixes...Our beloved Kayla was a purebred and she reminded me of a moose...she had the biggest ears...we lived by an elementary school and the kids couldn't believe she was a GSD...we loved her just the same....she was the love of our lives...now we have a little mixed girl and we haven't a clue as to what she is...

The photo of Seamus standing at the door is a riot...what a great shot...but could you please get a good shot of his face...he looks TERRIFIC!!

and a commend you for working through that first week...I'll be anxious to see what your vet says...

I used Rescue Remedy on Rylee...I do think it did calm her...she was having issues when we left her and went to work...

Keep up the good work...your updates make my day!! Judy


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have been enjoying the tales of "Seamus"...dont feel bad or ashamed you do not use "treats", positive reinforcement is anything that motivates the dog..........not necesarily food...if they work for your love and approval or play all the better IMO. I think more people should use more praise and fun and less food........but of course I'm guilty of the food bribe as well........I guess we are all imperfect souls searching for the perfect way to communicate with our animals.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I would love to see more photos too. And what a great guy your vet must be too! Treats are good but so are butts scratches and kisses and lots of love...just mix it all up. You are doing amazing with your boy for all he went through. We are all happy he landed in your home with the greatest mom in the world.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've been following the seamus diary *vbg*..I think you've done a remarkable job with him. He looks like a big soft fuzz ball, very cute! 

Your not a bad mom for not using treats, hey what works works ya know? BUT in this situation, I would try something "yummy" with him, for that additional 'nudge', and who knows you may see faster results?? I agree, mixing it up will keep him guessing as well!

Good luck with him, it sounds like you are on the right track
diane


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 13 of the oddysey of Seamus......tomorrow is our 2 week anniversary.









We went to the vet's today. Dr. G. sat on the bench next to me and I told him as much as I could get in, between Seamus twisting, bouncing and turning around on the leash. Doc listened and then went and got an office leash and tried to put on Seamus's neck (remember, he wears the harness because he hates collars). He backed away and tried to avoid it but Doc G is a pro and got it on, then took Seamus off on a walk around the facility. Finally they returned and Doc G sat to tell me what he had determined. 

Seamus met with dogs, people and other distractions. He was given a check up physically and mentally. The conclusion (which I knew already just being with him) is that he has the personality of a cuddly bear (he really IS a charming, lovable dog), he's hyper-active (probably an anxiety problem), he has no issues with any other dog he met so his only issue is with Thor, he needs training but his hyperactivity/anxiety level is standing in the way....he does sit but only after wiggling, squirming, jumping about for several minutes first (except at dinner time, of course...he's learned to sit faster if he wants to eat...*grins*).

He's about 9 years old, way too thin (ribs are poking out from the skin under all that fur though he's gained two pounds in the 2 weeks he's been here), teeth and health are good, though. He's shepherd and something else. Doc G agrees that due to size, tail, mane, etc. that he most likely has some spitz blood, probably husky with his 'pulling' instincts and power. But Doc G commented, "he has a noble head." I kinda liked that...and he does.

Anyway the bottom line is::::::::::::::I've been dropping a glucosamine/condroiton tablet into his meal every night as his back end is somewhat stiff. Doc G said to up it to two per day.

(And before any of you jump up and down and get your knickers in a bunch, hear me out)....He will be put on one tablet of clomipramine once a day in the morning for the next *two weeks*. This should lower the hyperactive/anxiety level and calm him a good deal. (there is enough to carry on further if 2 weeks doesn't work but we both want him off anything ASAP). This will give Kat and I time to introduce Thor and Seamus, which Doc G says is absolutely necessary (like I didn't know this already...teehee). But he advises one of us take Thor on a leash, the other Seamus on a leash, and gradually bring them closer to each other, watching carefully which dog makes the first aggressive move. It has to be immediately corrected with a sharp jerk on the collar and a firm "No, ......." (Thor or Seamus, depending on who initiates). They must be made aware that this is unacceptable pack behavior so it's up to us to make them know it. But Doc G thinks the meds will help in the process initially. I'm to keep him posted on progress.

It will also be a time (while he's less frenetic) to work on some training beyond sit. He will be allowed visitation time in the main house so he'll need those lessons. And I can try some of those 'treats' during this time while I have his attention. Of course, knowing Thor's angst-ridden tummy, we can expect some loose bowels.....BUT I also have a bunch of metronidazole for Thor's tummy...that's a relief because it works usually with one or at the most 2 tablets.

But Seamus made the long ride up the beach and back down with no major problems. He even got out on the way home and peed (wow! in a strange place, too) and as soon as we got home, we walked the usual walk and he pooped almost at once. And Doc G was as reasonable as he could possibly be with the bill (which covered not only the exam but the two meds and 6 months of Heartworm meds for each dog). It was worth every minute and every dollar. 

Right now, Seamus, Thor and Freya are all awaiting their dinner, so that's all for now, folks.

P.S. I'll have to get a pic of that "noble head".


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

WOW...great update...I am so glad that Seamus did so well with the vet...what a great guy...

We rescued an abused pup and she was very anxious and nervous when we left for work...we tried to just leave her adjust but after two weeks we knew we had problems. We brought her to our vet and we tried the anti anxiety drugs on her. I thought they helped some and we used them for about two months. We then weaned her off them...she is somewhat better and gets better each day...

I think that you are doing tremendously well...all in all Seamus is adjusting beautifully...the introduction of Thor and Seamus might be interesting, but if anyone can do it you sure can...I have great faith in you...

I too want to see that "noble head"...what a cool comment...Judy


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

HOLY SNICKERDOODLE! Bloody ****....where did my monster dog disappear to? One tablet and I have a cuddle bear .. a quiet sweet cuddle bear. Thor stood at the gate and watched this amazing transition in shock. Seamus came to the gate, eyed Thor, started to growl and then seemingly said, "Awww forget it", turned and went and layed down on his fuzzy blanket and yawned. I almost fainted dead away.

More as this stunning turn of events continues.....................................................


----------



## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

Diane,
You must be thrilled with the events that have happened today. How lucky to have such a great vet. He obviously has checked Seamus every which way, so I wouldn't be worried about the pills if doc says they're okay. Sometimes with a dog who has been through as much as Seamus, you have to take somewhat extreme measures. If it works and gets him through the next few weeks, it sounds like it's exactly what he needs. A peaceful household - bet that feels good! I can't wait to see pictures of that "noble head". All we've seen is the back of it!!







Best of luck and keep the wonderful updates coming..


----------



## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

The medication makes a lot of sense to me. I'm assuming its overall effect will be to decrease his arousal level as he gets used to a situation that must be incredibly thrilling and stimulating for him -- I imagine that just getting a steady flow of affection and approval must be kind of overwhelming for him just now. 

After two weeks, when this level of stimulus has become more normal to him, presumably he'll be able to process everything more calmly when he's off the meds. 

I wonder if Seamus thinks he's eaten some magic mushrooms and ended up in Wonderland. 

Whatever -- it all sounds so interesting!


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hi diane, i've been behind on the diary installments since i started working on the sable girl from ohio, a situation which reminds me somewhat of your's, in that it's a long distance adoption (to canada, whoa), and the dog is pretty much an unknown entity. 

but back to seamus, the difference in your posts, from the beginning to current, is simply astounding. it's great to see the pictures and read the stories. and how wonderful that your vet works with you. you have certainly changed this dog's life (well, given him his life, really). may many, many blessings come your way.

take care and keep writing the diary when you can...

very best regards and all good wishes,
katherine


----------



## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I too have been a bit behind in the updates. The pictures are great and I am looking forward to his noble head shot









What a fabulous vet you have! glad to hear he is working so well with you.

The ONLY thing that I read that I personally have concerns with... is the correcting for aggressing at each other. I am a firm believer in aggression begets aggression. Often times if you correct for an aggressive display, the dog learns that the display is bad and starts suppressing it. You think you're seeing progress because you don't see the display/growl etc. In actuallity the problem is still there, stressed feelings about the other dog, but now it is hidden.

I highly recommend reading "How To Right A Dog Gone Wrong" by Pamela Dennison. I am in no way saying he is aggressive to other dogs, I haven't seen him, but it may help you introduce him to Thor instead of correcting him, thereby making Seamus think he is right to be wary of Thor (and vice versa) because of the correction he gets when he sees him/is corrected around each other.

I do love reading your updates and bless you for all you are doing for him!


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

How wonderful Seamus is doing so well, I had Ava on sedatives for a short time while recovering from her spay surgery (she had pulled her stitches twice). I only have one word of advice....keep them separate from any of your medications! I know from experience that it is easy to get them mixed up and dont think I will ever live down the event (hangs my own head) but apparently poison control says it happens all the time (Definately a time I should have used my dark roots). I actually had to be brought home from work by one of my collegues and helped in my house....I slept for 8 hours...so be careful! Its pretty funny now, but they really had a scare once we realized what I had done...I wasnt worried, but of course I was pretty relaxed by then







My MIL called me later and barked into the phone, and when I went back to work there was a ball and a bag of treats in front of my office door.......


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Achielles CDXI too have been a bit behind in the updates. T......
> 
> I highly recommend reading "How To Right A Dog Gone Wrong" by Pamela Dennison. I am in no way saying he is aggressive to other dogs, I


My dog and I are in training with Pam right now. She has another really good book called "Bringing Light to Shadow". I have even met Shadow who was a very aggressive dog and you wouldn't believe what he is like now.

All the years of dog ownership haven't taught me anything near what I have learned from Pam over the good part of this past year. It isn't about deep voices or commanding the dog. It is all about the relationship you have with your dog and the focus your dog learns. My dog has a hard time focusing if she does at all....I understand how much time this all takes. Please read the book if you get a chance. I can definitely help you out if you have questions on Pam's teachings. If she can put up with me and my dog she can teach anyone anything


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Oh yes about the aggressing toward other dogs. Please don't yank the leash this is one of the teachings that caused my dog's poor attitude toward other dogs and is the reason I am now doing Positive dog training. The idea is to not let the dog aggress. You have to tune into your dog and when he indicates he will aggress turn around with lead in hand and say in a calm voice 'lets go' or come or what ever command you use. Yanking tells the dog "I see another dog and I am caused pain" and dogs are thinking animals and probably the best associative learners out there. So they then associate pain with other dogs especially Thor. This type of training will set you way back. If they can only come 20' away then fine...reward and stay at 20' and do something fun. Maybe the next day will be 18' and above all time will heal his wounds.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i learn so much on this site every single day!!! this thread brought a smiile to my face...badly needed today, let's just say!


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

16th Day of the oddysey of Seamus................

And I am sitting here covered in blood from head to foot...even my hair is caked with it. 

Seamus knocked the gate down and began running around the house. I let him out onto the back deck and both Thor and Freya followed. They spent a few minutes butt sniffing when suddenly Seamus turned on Thor, lunging for his neck. Thor reacted accordingly and within seconds, there was blood spraying in all directions. There was little I could do to separate them as they were like pit bulls, neither one yielding at all. I gave them both a few swift boots in the ribs and (stupidly but thank God, successfully) grabbed them both by the scruff of their necks and pulled....very hard. I kept saying to Thor, "Let it go! Let it go!", which he finally did and with that break I was able to boot Seamus far enough away to keep them apart. 

I managed to grab Seamus's collar and dragged him into his hallway, where I left him temporarily and went back to check on Thor, whose leg was gushing blood. Tearing an old pillowcase into shreds, I wrapped his leg and quickly checked the rest of him. He had punctures on his neck and face but they were okay for a minute. So I went back to check on Seamus. He was so bloody I couldn't see where he was bleeding from or if it was even his. I took him out and showered him down and found he had two gashes on his cheek and one on his forehead but otherwise was okay.

Going back to Thor, his wrapping was saturated with blood and he was limping badly. I had found time to call Kat who arrived at that moment and together we wrapped Thor's leg again and had him lay and rest for a while to see if he'd stop gushing (and shivering)....or we would have to drive 70 miles up the beach to the vet's. Within half an hour it ceased gushing so we flooded it with peroxide and dabbed neo-sporin on it and re-wrapped it with clean cloths. He handled all this well, though he whimpered in pain, and has now stopped shaking and is laying quietly at my side. 

Seamus's gashes are already clean and no more bleeding. He came out of this far better than Thor....apparently he's used to scraps like this. It's me that is having difficulty recovering. I'm still shaking. And very upset that Seamus would attack Thor, who was doing nothing...and believe me, I was right there with my hand on Thor's back, waiting for any growl to vibrate through his skin or any sign of aggressive behavior. There was none! Seamus just suddenly became a violent attacker, even with his anti-anxiety meds.

A friend of Kat's arrived, one who had been to vet school and has handled a lot of animals. He wouldn't go near Seamus, saying, "He's popping his jaw." When I asked what he was talking about, he said he has been hesitant about getting near Seamus from the beginning because he "pops his jaw...a bad and very aggressive behavior in dogs and I don't trust him enough to get near him." I don't know exactly what he means but I trust his judgement as I've seen him with animals and birds and he's got a remarkable ability to handle them all.

And I must admit, I have had my doubts about Seamus ever accepting any other dogs or cats or animals. He has been hostile from day one and today proved how dangerous he is. I don't know what to do but I know he isn't in the right household to serve him. He needs a home where he is the only animal, and where he has someone who knows how to handle aggression. I don't know how. I'm not trained for this. By himself with a 'human', he can be a sweety but around other animals, he's a monster.

I certainly don't want to return him to a shelter...that is the last thing that would help him. I think (and I emphasize, I *THINK*) he has enough love left in him to be a reasonably good dog with the right person. But I can't keep him here. There is no way I can keep him in the back hallway forever, effectively maintaining two separate households. Nor do I want to put him to sleep. But I can't go though another day like today (I'm still shaking) nor can I see my Thor hurting and limping as he is. He keeps looking at me as though saying, "Mommy, I hurt and I didn't do anything...I just had to defend myself." Amazingly, even with his minor cuts and bruises, even as I look down at all the blood spattered over me (you wouldn't believe how much there is), Seamus is behaving as though nothing happened, still bouncing around in his hallway like life is good.

I don't know what to do. I need help desperately....and soon. I know I'm in the middle of nowhere so I don't know of any fostering people of the kind I need but I need to find somewhere for him and am willing to drive him wherever he needs to go, if that helps. But as the days pass, with all the small good things that have happened, it's not enough. I know that. I can't keep him here. Any advice from you good folks?? I am in despair.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I would put him up in the non-urgent section with a link to this with a plea to get help. I feel so bad for you....and watch that leg it could get infected and start to swell. Ask your vet if he can take the dog or if he has any contacts too. Please get him posted in the non-ugent section for now.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Oh yes I was once told that the meds he was on do not work for some dogs. I am guessing he is one of those dogs. Also, you might list him on http://www.craigslist.org


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

I feel so bad for you...and Thor...and also Seamus...

I would talk with your vet about this...I have never heard about "popping his jaw". I am not doubting your friend, but I don't really know if this is truly a way to diagnosis aggression. None this less, Seamus and Thor fighting had to be awful for you...I am so glad you weren't really hurt trying to break them up.

Can you contact Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Kanuab, Utah??

Please Seamus's case...send them your posts from the forum...tell them he has been rescued from a kill shelter and that he doesn't stand a chance in a regular shelter...

I pray that someone will step in with some suggestions or ideas to help you with this...

I am so sad this had to happen to you...you have been so good with this whole thing...Judy


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I was looking up some info on jaw popping alot of stuff on bears 

http://www.sierrawildbear.gov/biology/communication.htm


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

dear diane, 
i know this is a terribly hard decision for you. it seems to be, to me, the only choice you have. although i was not expecting to see this post, it does not surprise me. you have given it your best. your very best. far more than i could have given. i cannot be of any practical help to you, but can only be here to say i support you in the conclusion you have come to. sending all good wishes and many, many blessings,
best regards,
katherine


----------



## butterfingers (Jun 5, 2007)

Diane, with the amount of blood from Thor, are you sure a vessel wasn't severed that requires stitches? My past foster put her leg through a window and cut a vessel - my whole downstairs looked like a murder scene - and required stitches both inside to repair the vessel and outside to close the wound. By the way, hydrogen peroxide does wonders at getting blood out of things!

As for Seamus, it sounds like you have done what you can and there is no shame in admitting when you have reached your limits of knowledge, ability, and sanity. I haven't followed this from day one, but it seems from the beginning things weren't what they were supposed to be. Best of luck to you and Seamus in finding him a new home!


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

LUV_GSD's......I'm thinking the meds weren't working with the aggression, tho' he was much calmer in other ways. And I saw what you linked to the bears....well, Seamus does sort of resemble a small bear. 

JudyKaye.....Kat's friend is a good ole southern boy....they don't use technical terms. *grins* But now that I listen more closely to Seamus, I do hear what he's talking about.

And Katieliz....I've had all of you good people's support but sadly it wasn't enough to deal with something so unexpected and sudden. Now...if you could all have been here personally to drag those two apart............... But you're right, I was hoping it would never come to this either. He was making such small but significant forward movements.

Marti.....I may have to take both Thor and Seamus to the vet tomorrow. Thor's wound has continued to seep through his bandages and he can't use that leg at all. When I re-did his bandages, he cried every time I touched his leg, which is swelling just a bit. But now Seamus is also limping and his leg is also swelling some (though interestingly, it's the quietest Seamus has ever been). I will give them each a tylenol or ibuprofin tonight and wait to see what the morning brings. But if I have to take them, Kat will come help me lift my almost 100 lb. Thor into the back of the truck. Seamus, who has gained weight since he arrived, still only weighs 45 plus pounds so I can handle him myself....and have often enough.

Kat did comment that it was a good thing that I wasn't being investigated in a murder because there's blood all over the house. It looks like the background of one of those blood, guts and gore horror films. 

And I used every bottle of peroxide I had in the house but barely made a dent in the amount of blood. However, it worked on the largest blobs and two soakings/washings in Iron Out (blood has iron in it so I figured it would work) and my ivory corderoys are back to ivory again. 

As you can tell, I'm calmer again but no less depressed. Whether I take either/or both of the dogs to the vet's tomorrow, I will definitely talk to him and see if he can offer any help finding a home for Seamus or at the least, giving me advice about what I'm to do. And I suppose I will have to list him in the Non-Urgent section though I feel so ashamed....feel like somehow I have failed Seamus or haven't tried hard enough or long enough. *sighs sadly* But then I look at my poor Thor and think how panicked Freya was over the whole ordeal (she has been laying within feet of Thor all evening and is very very quiet and sad when she looks at me) and>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

TOXICITY issues-

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/acetaminophen-toxicity-in-dogs/page1.aspx

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/ibuprofen-toxicity-in-dogs/page1.aspx

I wouldn't give anything without a vet approving it. If they are bleeding, aspirin will thin their blood-and so I would call the vet office before I gave anything in a situation like this. 

Dogs teeth chatter when they get excited. Or nervous or fearful. They do a snapping thing when excited. A clattering. And that's a happy sound. 

They also blow through their flews when they want to send a warning. 

There is a ton of microcommunication that they try to do-or do-but we just don't understand it all. 

There used to be someone on here named....360shooter? 357shooter? and he helped with some Northern breed/ancient breed rescue in the south. I don't know anything about his rescue. I believe it was in TN. 

I also don't know enough about Clomicalm to say, but did have a dog on ACE become very aggressive. 
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_clomipramine.html 

http://www.clomicalm.novartis.us/faq/en/index.shtml 

It also takes a couple of weeks for the anti-anxiety stuff to happen. Sedation, yes, and sedation is tough for a tough dog. It's why vet offices are so careful with dogs coming out of sedation-so that could be part of it.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

diane, there is no shame in an honorable try, imho.

best and blessings always,
k


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

I do have to say...that now that I think about it when Rylee was on her anti anxiety medicine I think one of the side effects was aggression. You might want to ask your vet about the side effects of the drug Seamus was on. At least that might give you an answer to what happened. I am so sorry for you. Judy


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks to Jasper007-he said it was 306shooter: http://www.southernsiberian.com/index.html

Is his rescue. He knows the Northern breeds. Might be a good contact.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm really sorry to hear this happened, Diane. I hope that both dogs are ok. The fight sounded terrible and I am worried about both Seamus and Thor and you. 

For future reference, it is best to pull dogs out of fights by their tails or to squirt water directly into their eyes. It is very hard for one person to break up a bad fight no matter what technique you use but those are two that make it less likely to get bitten. I hope you never have anything like this happen again. 

The fact is we have no idea what Seamus's life was like except that it certainly wasn't ideal. He may have been repeatedly attacked by other dogs while tied on a chain. Who knows? It is likely that being in a confined space with two other dogs was just too much for him. The meds could have exacerbated the feelings or they may not have made any difference. I've always read it takes about a week for them to kick in. 

Anyway, I know that none of us has a magic solution now and you are there on an island with a terrible situation. 

I wish I could wave a magic wand and make everything better but I can't so I'll just say that I'm thinking of you and hoping you will update and say that everyone is ok.


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

Oh Diane! I am so sorry this has happened. Please take of yourself too. Breaking up a dog fight! Wow! you have moxie! I admire you for daring to do it. I hope you are not injured. When you get a chance please read this article; http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

You did a lot more for Seamus than anyone, so please do not feel guilty and berate yourself. Sometimes only love is not enough. 

Keeping you and your doggies in the Light!


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am concerned that we have not heard further. I hope both dogs are ok but the lack of news does not bode well in my mind.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 19 of the oddysey of Seamus...........(he's still here...and so am I)

I did not take either dog to the vet's. Thor was walking yesterday albeit with a pronounced limp and his eye was bloody under the lid but he was sleeping peacefully when I was ready to leave and his leg was not bleeding anymore, and I felt he was alright for the time being. Seamus, other than those few scratches, had nothing else bothering him except.............and it's a big except.............he had crapped in two places in his hallway. He's never done that before.

Today, I noted that Thor is still limping though his eye has cleared up. Seamus crapped three times in his hallway overnight. *shakes head* Otherwise he seems to be fine.

But interestingly, I have barely heard a sound out of Seamus for the past two days....he who has barked, yelped, yipped, whined all day long every day since he arrived. He is almost soundless. He is in his hallway and I have blocked off all sight between the hall and the kitchen so that none of the dogs have had a single visual sign of each other...not that that has ever stopped him barking when Thor and/or Freya wandered into the kitchen for a drink (sight or no sight). Of course, I've not spoken much to him either. I've not been feeling terribly lovable with him and have pretty much left him alone (though I must admit I was working today and will be tomorrow as well so not much time either).

He's been walking positively like an angel at my side, no tugging, no pulling. He's been sitting the minute I appear (no waiting for me to tell him to do so). I keep wondering (perhaps wishful thinking) that Thor made his point and Seamus has accepted his place though I'm sure that's not true. But I stopped giving him his meds after the battle...don't know whether that has anything to do with it. Or maybe it's just leaving him alone other than tending to his food, water and walks. No stimulus, if you know what I mean.

Tonight I've noticed Thor's leg is swelling again and he's finding it difficult to walk again so I'm sure I'm going to have to take him up to the vet's but unfortunately, it won't be til Friday (he's not open on Thursdays). But I plan to talk to Dr. G then about what to do. Strangely, I really don't want to give up on Seamus yet (call me crazy....Kat certainly does). It's not even been 3 weeks yet and God knows what his background was to account for his problems. He's had years to get to this point and one can't expect him to transform overnight, so to speak. 

As long as Thor is okay and Freya comes out of her shell (where she's been since the battle), I'm willing to try for a bit longer with Seamus....unless we have a repeat of Monday's events. Then all bets are off.

Thanks, JeanKBBMMMAAN, for the articles on toxicity, which I checked. One half of an ibuprofin each would hurt neither one of them, and it did help with Thor's swelling and sleeping.

Moei, wish I had had that article on breaking up a dog fight before it began. I'm **** lucky I didn't get bitten while yanking the idiots apart. 

Ruth, Katie, Judy, LUV_GSD's...I know how much you guys care, too, and I'll try not to let my updates take so long to update. *grins* I guess all four of us are pretty subdued at the moment.....didn't mean to leave you guys wondering whether we were still alive. Unless something happens between now and Friday, I'll probably not post until then after I've seen and talked to Dr. G... so don't panic.

We're still hanging tough.................


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

Diane, I am so glad you are okay. I was so worried about you. I am glad the dogs are doing kinda, sorta okay, maybe







I hope Freya comes out of her shell and Thor gets better soon.

I can understand you not wanting to give up on Seamus yet. After talking to your vet and perhaps with some more experienced folks on this board re his aggression and ways to handle it, perhaps you will get some insights and also be able to take a decision that is the best for *all* concerned. 

I went back to Seamus/John's urgent post again and saw that aggression was mentioned earlier on but somehow was not repeated after the first couple of times. Did anyone clarify about that issue and I somehow missed it?

Take care of yourself and your furfriends.









Keeping you and Thor, Freya & Seamus in the Light.


----------



## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

I've been following this story with much interest since you brought Seamus home. All I've got to say is that you're a VERY kind hearted and brave soul to attempt such a big undertaking! I'm just wondering if a muzzle (for at least Seamus OR both) would be of any help to prevent further injury? And would it help to have both dogs attempt to meet again on down the road on common ground away from their home turf?? I've had minimal experience with the issues you're going thru, but those two thoughts keep coming to mind. Anyone?? would that make matters worse (muzzles) or help???


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Later day 19...........

Moei..I seem to recall that the aggression issue became a non-issue somewhere part way through the Urgent post, but apparently it should never have been removed. With people, he's a fine animal, loves to be loved. But with male dogs, he's 'hellboy'. I'm guessing whoever evaluated him, if anyone did, missed that.

Forruger...It may be possible to muzzle both of them (for at this point, Thor is no more happy with Seamus than Seamus is with Thor, understandably). I will discuss it with Dr. G on Friday (tomorrow) as I am taking them both up to see him. Thor's leg looks a tad infected and I'm finding more holes, tears, punctures, etc. on both of the dogs as the days pass. They both need to be thoroughly examined.

But sad news...Seamus is back to day one in his behavior. He refused to pee and poop last night and this morning. On walks, he's slipping into bushes and curling up and playing dead again...tho' it's easier getting him out now. Last night I enclosed him in an area 3' by 3' thinking that would limit his pooping in the enclosure. He pooped anyway, stepping all through it when I went to take him out this morning. His tail is hanging between his legs again, his head lowered and there's no longer any eye contact.

All that we seemed to have accomplished with his attitude and behavior seems to have gone down the drain. Right now, I have him in an outside kennel under the porch (our house is elevated 11 feet so it made a nice area to put the dogs outside for fresh air without getting drenched in rainstorms). Fortunately it's warm, though I have a huge igloo dog house I may put in there with his fuzzy blanket if necessary. But I can't keep him in the house. I get tired of cleaning up poop messes and he refuses to go when outside, only when in the hallway. And he seems to poop at random times all day long, even if we've just been out. But not happy about leaving him outside either as he barks and yips constantly....not great with the neighbors, I fear.

The other problem with leaving him in the kennel (as it was in the hallway for that matter) is that he's isolated from everyone. How is it better isolating him all the time as it was for him when he was in the shelter?? He might just as well have stayed in the shelter for all the good it's doing him living here.

Once I've discussed this with Dr. G., I still plan to try having Kat and I take each of the two protagonists out for a joint walk down to the beach and back and see what kind of behavior they exhibit. He had already recommended that before the blood bath. We'll see if he still feels the same tomorrow.

Things are not looking good in general...I'm still trying but it's taking its toll on me and the three dogs. Even Thor and Freya seem to be forgetting their responses to commands. It's like having a spoiled younger brother in the family and the older kids asking, "Why do we have to behave when he gets away with murder?" I smile when I recall how easy it was to introduce Freya into the family and how different the experience with Seamus is.

I'm sooooooo tired. I'm tooooo old for this nonsense. *rueful grin* I keep hoping this journal is useful to someone on this site who may experience something like this.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: moei
> I went back to Seamus/John's urgent post again and saw that aggression was mentioned earlier on but somehow was not repeated after the first couple of times. Did anyone clarify about that issue and I somehow missed it?


I remember that later the thread said he was a laid back dog or something like that.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Your journal is great and I am sure many people are reading it. We all understand if you decide not to keep Seamus; you and your dogs have been through something very frightening and if you do keep him I think you have the makings of a book from this journal. Keep your head up as Seamus may just be making his journey to his furever home and be passing through your life. I know you are busy but if you get the chance try to read "Bringing Light to Shadow" you will find out you are not alone and that it can be a very long journey to a better dog and that there will be setbacks.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Diane, I have just sat here and read your total thread (I wish I had found it before) and my heart goes out to you and the puppers. I have also had issues with my rodie rescue that was dumped from a car outside my house, though nothing like you have been going through. She and my female shepherds just do not get along. I tried everything but for some unknow reason she just flips the switch of my girls and I have had a couple of major fights. The last one was so ugly that I know if my dad hadn't been there Kibby (the rhodie) may have been seriously injured or possibly killed by my other girls who show no issues with any dog but her. I understand how very traumatic it can be. I now keep Kibby seperated from the girls and let them out at different times until I can locate a good home for her where there are no other females. She is fine with males. It is heartbreaking to have to make the decision to have to rehome a dog, but you have to do what is right for you and your whole pack. i just wanted to add my voice to the many that admire you for what you have done and let you know that whatever you do in the future you have not failed by any means. I hope you and all the puppers are ok after such a traumatic experience and that things improve.


----------



## Arobryn (Nov 1, 2007)

Diane - I just started reading your journal today and want to say thanks! You've put in a lot of time on just the writing, let alone the experiences!

I also skipped from page 2 to 4 of the posts and was shocked when I started reading about the aftermath of the fight. I had to agree, you had every right to find a new home for Seamus, but I couldn't help be disappointed (not that I could do have as well as you have so far!), but I'm so happy to read that you haven't gotten rid of him, yet and would like to give it another go!! Good on ya! (But let me repeat - I couldn't blame you if you didn't - I've a two year old Pit Bull mix and a 3 month old GSD puppy and that's all I can handle - what you're doing is SO courageous - and SO much work!).

For my two cents - I think you're on the right track. Do what you can for Seamus - if he has to stay outside for a few days so be it - at least long enough for you to get your energy back and let things inside get back to something like normal. But you've made SO much progress in the time you've been writing - and it hasn't even been a month!! Don't let this set back get you - give yourself time to recover - you need it - but I'm certain that things will progress, again! And don't worry that you're not giving him enough now. He's not being abused with you and you're more permanent than a shelter so he'll start to get comfortable and with time things will get better. In less than a month you've done crazy fantastic things - heck, in less than a day you went from a dog that SCREAMED about the stairs to one who could navigate them well! And all projects have their set backs - you have to expect them. And this was a big one, I'll give it to you, but this dog's got some big issues so he's gonna have some big blowouts. 

But on an up note - its not like you can do anything worse! Hehe One of my fears in getting a puppy was that if he turns out 'bad' I can't blame anyone else!









Thanks for the updates and all the best to you! Your'e in my thoughts.

~L'aura


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Diane,

I hope today is a better day for you and that you and the boys are getting some rest.

Karen


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day ? Whatever ? of the oddysey of Seamus...............(can you tell it's NOT been a good day?)

So far Seamus has cost me 650.00 (roughly half a month's income), not counting the adoption fee, the bowl, leash, collar and food he has eaten. Nor counting the time, energy and gas spent by the volunteer transports. And it doesn't account for the stress and toll it's taking on my heart and blood pressure. And it sure as heck doesn't take into account the pain and suffering Thor is enduring nor the psychological trauma impacting both him and Freya. To be fair, I have to guess that Seamus is not feeling his best either but I'm having trouble trying to remain fair.

And the little b*stard had the unmitigated audacity to sit in the back seat of my truck and sh*t not once, not twice but three times on the way up to and back from the vet's. Arrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!! 

Dr. G. scolded him roundly....saying, "What's wrong with you, nut? You were saved and brought to a good home and this is how you show your gratitude. Wise up, buddy." However, in all seriousness, Dr. G. is shaking his head, telling me that this is not a good sign, and suggesting that the time has come to give it up....the issues are too great and too traumatic on all of us. Time to re-home him, is his best suggestion. Has asked me to send a pic and small background story to their website and he and his wonderful folks will look for anyone they think would be good for him.

Thor had surgery (minor but surgery none-the-less) on his leg and he has a soft cast on it at the moment. Dr. G. said it was getting pretty badly infected, even as well as we had flushed it with peroxide and doused it with neosporin....probably because it was such a DEEP wound. He had to do some nip/tuck to drain it. Thor's eye, however, is okay, thankfully. So I have tons of anti-biotics and pain killers for him, anti-biotics for Seamus's mild cuts and poke holes as well. Between the two of them, they have more medications than this old lady takes. 

Freya rode along to keep him company both up and back and the ACO from our local shelter saw her for the first time since she left their shelter. He was mightily impressed in how beautiful she has become (she's gone from 51 lbs to 77, the little piggy..no bones showing now...tho' Thor has lost 6 lbs this past week, poor baby). He was even impressed with how 'friendly' Seamus was, though he said being a GSD/chow mix (AHA!! Just what Kat said.) would explain some of his aggressive behavior, as the chow is always very possessive about its owners. Well, DUH! Seamus is always friendly with people. It's just any animal on the face of the earth that poses a problem.

Bottom line, I think the time has come to try and find a more suitable home for Seamus....one with one, possibly two, adults, no kids, no dogs, no cats, no birds, snakes, ferrets or any other competition. Meanwhile, as long as the weather is warm enough, he will live in the kennel under the porch. I cannot tell you what a relief it is not to have him in the house...how peaceful it is, how relaxed Thor and Freya are. I am sad for him as it's not much different than living in the shelter but his behavior, his sudden reversion to being NOT housebroken and crapping every where, does not contribute to living in the house. I just hope the neighbors don't get too upset with his barking, yipping, yelping every few minutes, day and night, 24/7. 

But I feel so sad that I have somehow failed him (I'm sure others that have been through something like this know what I mean). However, old as he is, he doesn't have the years left it would probably take to rehabilitate him. Equally important, neither do I.


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

Bless you Diane. It was/is an honourable attempt and you do not need to feel guilty at all. I am sorry it has been such a trying experience for you and also for Thor and Freya. Seamus carries with him the baggage of the past and sometimes that can be too difficult to overcome.

Take care of yourself and try not to berate yourself too much. 

XOXO and


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

what a difficult experience this has been for you, diane. and originating from such a genuine desire to do good...sometimes it's so hard to know what the right course of action is. but i can sure feel the "tired" in your words. i wish you the continued strength to carry on with these painful decisions, and the clarity to absolutely know you've done your best. take good care, and many blessings to you and your family.


----------



## twolfette (Jan 26, 2007)

I recently returned my rescued female Vixen after I could just no longer handle her aggression. She was wonderful with my male, wonderful with my family, but just unpredictable with other dogs and people. 

It really tore me up, and I had her for 9 months and worked on the problem with trainers and a behaviorist. After her third attempted bite in one month's time (this one tore through a 15 year old's double t-shirt), I just couldn't take the risk any longer. I couldn't lose everything because of one dog.

After reading your story with Seamus, I am touched by your trials and I emphasize with your plight. Please, don't feel guilty. You have to do what is right for you and the dogs you already had. We'll never ever know what happened to some of these rescues in their previous lives, and no matter how hard we try and even they try, sometimes it is not enough. You have to come first before the dog, and the dogs you have already devoted your life and time too. 

We truly cannot save them all, and sometimes, the right home is not with us, as much as we want it to be. I loved my Vixen, and I still get tears in my eyes when I think I failed her, but I didn't. I wasn't the right home for her, and sometimes, we just have to realize that. We aren't failing the dogs, it just our pack might not be the right match, and the right one is just around the corner. We were just the stepping stone for a while.

<hugs> and you and your pack are in my thoughts tonight.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

WARNING: This is not a warm, fuzzy post. No personal attacks are made but I am advocating for the rescued dog here. 

We all know Diane did a "good" thing in taking Seamus but it hasn't worked out well for him and I need to speak up on behalf of Seamus here. *HE IS LIVING OUTSIDE UNDER THE PORCH 24/7!!!!!!!!!!!! *If a dog showed up in the Urgent section under those conditions people would not support the owner and would be working like crazy to get the dog out and into a home. 

I really have a problem with this. No, I'm not down there and no, I don't know anyone down there but I do know that he needs to get out of there ASAP and back inside and with people who will care for him. He started pooping in the house and withdrew because he was terrified and because he knew it his caretaker was pissed. He is not doing anything out of spite. He started meds and they were stopped abruptly. What effect might that have had? He got in a huge fight because he was scared and felt the need to defend himself. Did he hurt another dog? Yes! Did he do it because he wanted to cause problems? No! He did it because he was trying to defend himself. He's not normal and that was clear from the beginning. 

What's done is done but let's hope everyone learned something from this. A good evaluation was never done at the shelter because clearly this male dog aggression would have shown up. So that's lesson number one for anyone thinking about a long distance adoption. 

He is now living outside, alone. Seamus was not ready to be in a small space with two other dogs. Maybe in a month or two he would have been but this week he wasn't and he defended himself as he felt he needed to. Thor paid for this and Diane paid for this and most of all, Seamus paid for this. He is now living outside alone, under the porch, 24 hours a day. Had he been kept apart from the other dogs and/or muzzled around them, this would not have happened. 

Rescuing dogs, in my experience, can be very, very, very stressful. My life has been turned upside down many times by rescued dogs. And I mean upside down. So I do understand. But my heart is with Seamus. He really needs an advocate right now. 

I am very sorry for all of the trouble that he has caused but I hope, with all of my heart, that he gets a real home very soon.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

I hear you, Ruth! And I know you care.

But rest assured, he's only been out two nights, last night and tonight. And it's a large kennel with a warm shelter...and it's in the sixties here. AND .. he spent all day today with me (the smell inside my truck testifies to that). *smiles* 

As for all the recidivist behavior he reverted to, it began after he crashed down his gate and joined the rest of the household, including both my other dogs, after *HE* attacked Thor. He wasn't defending himself, he 'provoked' the attack. Thor wasn't even growling let alone attacking him. But your comment that "He's not normal and that was clear from the beginning" may have made him 'feel' threatened but I assure you...he wasn't. Yes, I took him off the three days of meds he had taken after asking Dr. G. if it might have caused the aggression. Although he didn't think so, it was alright to stop them. 

And I have NEVER suggested that he's pooping to aggravate me or get back at me or out of spite. I suspect he was just as traumatized as Thor was and he hasn't been able to help himself. Dr. G. and I discussed that today also, and I have given him a metronidazole tonight, along with his anti-biotics, in the hopes that we can get a grasp on his bowels so he can come back into his hallway. Being in the kennel is a temporary thing as far as I'm concerned and only because I have other things to tend to than cleaning up crap every morning and every night. As soon as it's under control again, he'll be back in his hallway. And you have to know this too...I never (after that first night when he peed in the living room) scolded him about his accidents. You have to remember I've lived with Thor (of the touchy tummy) for over 3 years and I am only too familiar with runny bowels. But I've gotten just as tired of cleaning up after Thor's as I did with Seamus....and Thor has spent his share of nights in the kennel too since I can hose it down. *grins*

I want to share an email I just received from Nancy Myers, the woman I dealt with from the Ross County Shelter initially:::::



> Quote:Hi Diane,
> Thank you for the update but I am sad to hear he is such a rascal. The aggression alert was posted because he was aggressive towards the dog catcher who caught him and was snapping at kennel workers the very first day he was in the shelter. After that first day he was an angel. He spent a lot of time in a common area with other dogs and never a problem. I sent out another GS (Mick) the same day Seamus went out…same exact story. A sweet boy in the shelter and **** on wheels at the rescue. I am truly at a loss and very sorry you are having these problems. The rescue that has Mick is a general rescue but they know a GS rescue that is willing to take him and work with him. Thank God. They told her this is not uncommon in GSs. I think we will stop adopting GSs out of the local area unless they are going to GS rescues. I don’t want to take any more chances of this happening again.


I think that is a lesson to all of us who adopt without first having spent time visiting the dog and introducing our own dogs to the adoptee. I did that with Freya before she ever came home. She and Thor had met and made it clear they were 'compatible'. I know we all want to rescue all the GSD's in the world but I am attesting to the fact that it can be a dangerous move if you've never even seen the dog, regardless of what their 'sweet profile' is or how pretty their face.

Yes, I think Seamus is in the wrong household for a dog with his issues...no doubt about it. But I haven't just *'discarded'* him and tossed him under the house and forgotten about him. His isolation there is little different from the isolation he's had in the hallway...and I have commented many times on my concerns about that. The only difference is that for the night, he is out of hearing and sight of Thor and Freya, which is far better for all three, quite frankly, especially as Thor is still recovering from his vet visit today.

I fully intend to try and find the right home for him (and I'd sure appreciate any help anyone here can offer regarding rescue groups, etc.) but that doesn't mean I won't continue working with him, or caring for him, until he is re-settled. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that "Okay, he isn't working out so let's just dump him out of sight, out of mind". I know my earlier post was rather maudlin but I wrote it when I was suffering a range of emotions, none of them good, cheerful or happy ones. Like yours, it wasn't a "warm and fuzzy" post. But really, can you honestly believe I'm that heartless and cruel?

Trust me, Ruth, he hasn't been abandoned yet again....we're all just taking a well advised sabbatical for all of us until his bowels are under control. And he isn't left alone *24/7*. It's only at night...I still spend time with him during the day as I did before walking, talking, cajoling, teaching commands (or trying to), feeding, watering, and telling him to stop barking at the pesky cats that wander past him (I'm sure intentionally just to bug him)









But thank you for caring about him....he's still the reason and the center of this journal, isn't he?


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Diane,

This is what your previous post says, "Meanwhile, as long as the weather is warm enough, he will live in the kennel under the porch. I cannot tell you what a relief it is not to have him in the house...how peaceful it is, how relaxed Thor and Freya are. I am sad for him as it's not much different than living in the shelter but his behavior, his sudden reversion to being NOT housebroken and crapping every where, does not contribute to living in the house. I just hope the neighbors don't get too upset with his barking, yipping, yelping every few minutes, day and night, 24/7."

That's all I had to go by regarding Seamus's situation. I am glad that is not true and he will not be living outside, alone, in a kennel. I imagine it is much different than living in the hallway where he can smell, see and hear you. 

I have always supported rehoming as long as it's done responsibly and I'm glad you are going to pursue that. I have had to do it myself and had to keep animals separate in the interim. It isn't fun for anyone. In fact, it's incredibly stressful. And I do agree that long distance adoptions are really risky. Most of them seem to work out just fine but some don't. Last fall I adopted a dog from a shelter in Ohio and realized very quickly he wasn't a good fit for my home because he was cat aggressive and I have a 15 yo cat. I contacted a local rescue and asked to foster him through them. It took two months but I found him a great home. I kept him partitioned off in the upstairs in my bedroom and a hallway and kept my cat downstairs and I went back and forth between them, spending half my time upstairs and the other half downstairs. It was exhausting and stressful for all of the animals and me at first but after a few weeks everyone got used to the routine and it all worked out in the end. 

As for your analysis of his motivations in "attacking" Thor, I think it is more complicated. I have seen enough dogs exhibit this kind of behavior with other dogs and with people (I have had several who tried to attack people seemingly unprovoked). This is very typical behavior for dogs who have been abused (whether it is by people or other dogs). Their safety zone (or body bubble as Jean K. calls it) is outside of our understanding of normal space or movement. With these kinds of dogs you have to learn to read minute body language and things can change in a second. Many have ptsd. My own dog would check out (I learned to read the signs) and other go into reactive attack or shutdown mode. The fact that Seamus was terrified when out walking with Freya gives you some inkling of how he feels around other dogs. Read "Bringing Light to Shadow," "Calming Signals" or "The Other End of the Leash" sometime when you have a spare moment (I know, ha, ha). 

I would research rescues anywhere near you and ask them to courtesy post him on their website. Again, I am sorry for everyone involved that things turned out this way.


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

I am disappointed to read all of this about Seamus not working out but I want to say just one thing: please don't call him a 'little b*stard.' When you are trying to rehome or place him with a rescue, you will need to think of something positive to say about him so might as well start RIGHT NOW.

Good luck.


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Dogs can read our moods an emotions very well. Diane, you are are putting in a tremendous amount of effort and the situation is very stressful, so you should be commended for sticking to Seamus. I rescued an rehabilitated many dogs like this and know what challenging task it is. However I read a lot of negative emotion, frustration and anger in your posts from the very first day. I know you said that it is not how you treat the dog, however, all these negative feelings do come through and may be backfiring on you. I personally feel uncomfortable with you calling him bad names and i think you may be setting and overall negative tone. I cringe when I read hellboy or b*stard. I wonder if the dog knows how mad you are at him and whether he is acting out because of that. In order to rehome him, you will have to bring him into a better shape, so trying to work on a more positive mindset would help.


----------



## twolfette (Jan 26, 2007)

I dunno, I think she is simply getting out her frustrations here in writing rather than on the dog. I know I affectionately call one of my cats b*stard, and my dog "big dumb dog" and I don't mean anything by it at all. Coming here to vent is much more effective than venting by yelling and screaming etc. 

I actually understand her perfectly


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

I would not be so sure that the dog does not get it.


----------



## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

Hmm.... Guess I need to add my 5 cents worth as it appears things are starting to get a bit "ugly"..... 
Two things are very obvious. Seamus is NOT working out in Diane's household. Her intentions on helping this poor misfit were very honerable but she got way more than she bargained for when she offered to take him. Spending time laying outside in peace and solitude in her kennel at this point is WAY better than what the alternative would have been for him had she not agreed to take him. . Most likey he would have been in the local landfill or whereever the shelter he came from disposes of the poor souls that don't get adopted. 
It IS obvious that Seamus will come around and make a nice pet for someone else who doesn't already have dogs and cats as it's apparent he is still capable of bonding with his human counterpart when he is shown kindness and patience. I only hope there is someone else out there willing to help this guy....


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

.... I have seen enough dogs exhibit this kind of behavior with other dogs and with people (I have had several who tried to attack people seemingly unprovoked). This is very typical behavior for dogs who have been abused (whether it is by people or other dogs). Their safety zone (or body bubble as Jean K. calls it) is outside of our understanding of normal space or movement. .....Read "Bringing Light to Shadow," "Calming Signals" or "The Other End of the Leash" sometime when you have a spare moment (I know, ha, ha). 

[/quote]

I agree with this. I had a foster who loved people but I could tell he was horribly abused. If you lifted your foot up he would jump up 5 ' in the air. He also had the 'growl beaten out of him'. I was going to keep him but he had a problem with any animal (cat or dog) getting close to his muzzle and this wasn't apparent till he tried to attack a puppy in a pet shop....bad people think they don't have to watch their dogs in the pet shop. Pup ran out to the end of the leash and dove under his chin and that's when I saw what he was capable of. With 3 cats and two other dogs I put him up for rehoming and told his story of what a people lover he was and that he could not go to a home with other animals and no small children. He found his dream home but it did take a few months. 

It is a lifetime project with a dog that was abused. You are in danger if you are to break up dog fights. But the fact that Seamus did not bite you is probably a good sign. I know with help from your vet and those around you that you will find him the correct home and please don't beat your self up because you are not dumping him but taking care of him till he finds his new home.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TwolfetteI dunno, I think she is simply getting out her frustrations here in writing rather than on the dog. I know I affectionately call one of my cats b*stard, and my dog "big dumb dog" and I don't mean anything by it at all. Coming here to vent is much more effective than venting by yelling and screaming etc.
> )


Yes it is the tone you use with the dog all they hear is blah...someword they might recognize...blah blah So I call my dog stinky...doesn't seem to hurt her feelings at all. And Diane you need to vent to us. I've used this forum to keep myself sane too and to ask for help with rescues.


----------



## Arobryn (Nov 1, 2007)

I'm gonna chime in - Diane, I think you're an angel and Seamus is in great hands! Everything you've written indicates you're frustrated as ****, but able to put a laugh on and are still genuinely good to Seamus. And I think in this case the 'bad' that you know is better than the unknown - sure, he's kenneled outside, but he's with someone right now who gives him more contact than a shelter with more dogs would and who knows what he'd get if he were rushed off too soon - could be worse. And I think Forruger's right - this dog's not quite ready for a lot of attention - probably isn't really used to the whole 'being part of the family' thing. Being kenneled outside might be exactly what he needs for awhile - baby steps toward a more social existence. 

So, Diane, thanks for doing the thing I couldn't (although, maybe I'll try when I think I've come to understand dogs better - I'm learning every day with my two).

~L'aura


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

mtb&r...i think diane has given it her all, but i have to agree, dogs have a whole other sense thing going when it comes to sensing energy. i sensed a difference in the energy of the words of the venting a while back.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm not trying to be nasty folks and I think Diane knows that. I am trying to be realistic about what's going on with this dog and to advocate on his behalf. This is really hard for everyone and on everyone. Diane lives in the middle of nowhere without a rescue support system. She did a good thing in taking Seamus in. But with dogs like Seamus it can take months and even years for the dog to come around and throughout that period things that are difficult for us to understand could set him back again and again. 

It's fine for us all to pat ourselves on the back about how we tried and some dogs are just too much, etc. etc. But the fact is, this is what many rescues are like and once we have them they become our responsibility until we find a better situation for them or adapt our lifestyles to them. When you take in a dog, it's no longer your own dogs and this other dog. This other dog _is_ your dog until you find him/her a new home or return him/her to the rescue or shelter. That's what makes all of this so incredibly difficult! There is no escape here for Diane, Seamus, Thor or Freya. They're all stuck with one another until a better situation can be found. Believe you me, I know what that's like! 

_Seamus is not better off outside_. Dogs don't like to be alone outside! He can't compare his current situation to his former situation or what would have been! All he knows is that he is now outside in a kennel! If you read carefully you will see that Diane says a number of times that he is barking, yipping, crying--making noise-- nonstop. _That is not a sign of a happy, relaxed dog. _ This dog is terrified. He does not know what's happening to him. 

The pooping was probably because he was in shock from what happened with the fight. He is a bundle of very frayed nerves just like everyone else around there.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 21 of the oddysey of Seamus..........Happy 3 week Anniversary!!

And we're all still alive. *grins*

Kat and I spent the day moving furniture into storage and clearing the room of everything so we can paint it and get it ready for her to move in. It was no place for dogs underfoot so all the dogs were sent outside for the whole day. Thor and Freya were on the back deck, Seamus in the kennel and Izzy and Oliver ran freely around the yard (I worry but Kat doesn't). Seamus mostly sat and watched (surprisingly with limited barking) as we all went in and out of the house, the other dogs ran past him and the cats moseyed on by. Forruger and L'aura may have hit the nail on the head...outside in his kennel, he was safe from everyone and everything but he could watch the comings and goings. 

And Ruth, he barks and yips and yelps all the time, inside or out. What you said about that indicating a 'terrified' dog terrifies me. That would mean that he's been terrified the entire time he's been here so what does that say about the small accomplishments we've made....that they're meaningless? I've been seeing it as just a noisy way of communicating....like Thor barking and barking and barking at every little thing from leaves flying by to grass growing. And I think I did acknowledge that the pooping was probably due to his own trauma post the battle. But noisy communication from day one?? Sheesh...have I missed something? 

I took Seamus with me while I gathered the hose, hooked it up, and then sprayed down the kennel. Then we took a long walk along a different route from normal and he seemed to behave on the leash fairly well once again. He piddled once but no poo....we'll see what the end results of the metronidazole does for him tonight. There was no new poo in the kennel so not sure what to expect when we go out later this evening for our pre-bedtime walk.

When I finally figured I'd had it for the day, I prepared all the dogs' dinners, closed off the hallway once again, and then brought the three of them into the house. Other than an initial nose to nose through the glass door, and a bark and a growl, they have been ignoring each other, thankfully. 

I hope all goes well, as I can't leave him outside for the next few days....we're expecting a white face gale and dropping temperatures. None of us will even like going out for a quick walk...brrrr. Oh, and Ruth, I am afraid I have to agree with what your interpretation from my previous post: i.e.that I was going to leave him under the house forever. Frankly, at the moment I wrote it, I was probably actually hoping he would disappear forever and we could all have our simple, quiet life back again. *chuckles* By the way, I would love to read your book recommendation, "Bringing Light to Shadow", but unless it's in our local library (hardly likely...small library), I'm not going to find it anywhere nearby. And since I'm a tad low on $$ right now *snorts* it will be a while until I can amazon.com it or anything.

MomtoBeauandRiley and Strongheart....Twolfette got it right on. When I'm writing here, I vent. Oh do I vent. But when I look at Seamus, or spend time with him, I actually feel sorry for him. He's such a lonely little bugger. I want to hug him and make him feel better but it's hard to even pet him as he is leery about being touched. I do try not to share my frustration with him, though I am human and I would imagine some slips into the sound of my voice or the stance of my posture at times. I'm aware of this because I've seen Thor and/or Freya when I'm tired and crochety...they skirt around me and they actually 'listen' to me when I tell them to lay down and stay rather than follow me all around the house the way they tend to do. 

But they *know* me well, and I have to assume they know that it's a momentary thing. Or maybe not. But it doesn't leave a lasting impression and a few minutes later we're all snuggling each other again. But Seamus wouldn't know that yet, would he, poor little mite? So I write out my frustrations and my feelings here....and it does help. And whether he understands or not, he's always called Seamus to his face. *grins*

Anyway, guys....I need you all to keep me on my toes and catch me up when I trip and fall. And thanks for kissing my boo boos and patting me on the back when I get it right. This is all unchartered waters for me and I haven't the foggiest idea what I'm doing right or wrong....so, no, I don't mind when you experts see a flaw in my behavior and point it out. Every little bit helps Seamus in the long run...and any other dog and their new owner in the same position.


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

Diane, I have to say that Brenda Aloff's Photographic Guide to Dog Behavior was one of the best $ I ever spent and allowed me to go back and look at lots of photos of my two warring GSDs and see all sorts of warning signs for the fights that were to come. But when Jessie was being her defensive, insecure self and attacking her brother, it never once occurred to me to think of her as a little b*stard or similar phrase/name. When we had to rush Rocky in for surgery in which he almost lost part of his leg, I didn't once get mad at Jessie for it. I was shaking too hard for that. It wasn't Jessie's fault, it was MY fault. Everything that's happened since then between them has always been my fault. That book I mention really helped me to avoid future conflicts and realize my part in previous ones.

It was expensive though but so worth every penny. If you can find a used on on amazon when you do have some money, I think it will help you a lot to see the warning signs before something happens. Like my behavior teacher (not my dog trainer) always says, 'there is never just behavior.' Dogs don't just do stuff completely spontaneously, they are reacting. Everything with any organism is cause and effect. 

I used to grieve for the days before I brought Rocky here because there were no fights then but I'm over that. I do feel it's good to vent but I think it's also good to really explore your part in the situation and I'm not trying to make you feel bad. But you will only feel worse if you don't think about why you originally wanted to bring this dog into your house. Some part of you made you do that, maybe you have a part of your personality that craves drama that you are not aware of. I am amazed how many people I meet who seem unaware of their motivations. Maybe I'm completely wrong (I'm not saying that's why you brought him down there). Maybe you really like a challenge or maybe you want something to make you feel alive. Well you got it 

But I know that all the advice I've received on these boards was solid gold and yet some of it was so simple that it was easy to think 'oh there must be more advice than that I can get.' I think the best advice right now is to give it time. I'm only echoing the wise words of previous posts by the dog rescue experts here. Keeping this log is a good way to measure your progress but it will get better. 

I do think it's important to realize that some things happening are just fear based reactions. The pooping in the car, it's been said by others, I'll say it again. That was out of terror! I'm sure he associates cars with transports now after his long ride down there. The most stubborn behaviors a dog exhibits is usually fear based. I thought I knew a lot about dogs before I got my GSDs and I did but there's always so much more to know. One thing I never realized was that dogs have so much fear, it seems silly that a GSD would have fear when they are feared but they do.

When we first got Rocky, he would cry in terror when I would put my arms around him to hug him. He was terrified. Now, 9 months later when I put my arms around him, he relishes it, he loves it. The way I got him to like it was I would just talk in really low, calm tones while I did it. That was something my trainer said to do. They really react to the low tones and spoken slowly. When I'm letting Rocky out of his crate, he jumps and cries like he's being tortured and I just say "Rocky sit" very low and quietly. I can't even hear myself say it because he's crying so loud. But he hears it and it just has this magic effect on him. So I would try something like this with S.

Have a good day.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Quote: he barks and yips and yelps all the time, inside or out. What you said about that indicating a 'terrified' dog terrifies me. That would mean that he's been terrified the entire time he's been here


Absolutely possible. Coming from a shelter where he was safe from people and other animals (he didn't know he was on death row). Fed, could potty where he wanted as he was probably used to. 



> Quote: so what does that say about the small accomplishments we've made....that they're meaningless?


Dogs don't care about accomplishments. They don't have a progress chart or check off boxes of what they are supposed to do when. Everything is meaningful, nothing is small. But if you put yourself in the dog's "shoes" that stuff doesn't matter. If you look at it from your point of view, you lose the dog's point of view. 

Just like in counseling, the therapist can think what they want to think, but if they refuse to look at it from the client's point of view there will never be an opportunity for that client to change. 

It's that complicated and that simple. Speaking of simple, there is also NILIF and dogs thrive on that. http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm Even Chow mixes (especially Chow mixes) respond to this. But your other dogs would benefit from it as well.


----------



## Arobryn (Nov 1, 2007)

I gotta argue the barking in terror thing - might be true, sure, but we're also diagnosing from across the Internet. I've had my boy Blue for a month and a half now and he's been the HUGEST whiner from day one. Pick him up, put him down, feed him, pet him, ignore him - he wants on the bed, out of the car, in the car - he tells you all about it. And it's normal. He's been to the vet - no health problems at all - he's just a vocal fella. And he's from a reputable breeder and temperament tested - at 3 months he confidently approaches people and dogs and since the 'fear stage' I've only seen him scared twice and he recovered quickly. He's not a terrified dog, but you wouldn't know it from the way he yips and whines and cries when he's tired. And on the complete other side - our Pit Bull mix from the pound is a scared dog who will bite BEFORE bark - and has. 

But I'd agree that Seamus probably is a scared dog and I'd also bet that of all the things in his life THAT is the only thing that's normal. I'm by no means an animal expert, but comparing Blue (the vocal GSD) and Mollie (the scared PitBull) - Mollie takes a LOT more time and patience to get comfortable with things and I'll argue that's what Seamus needs. Ruth, I hear ya, dogs need company, but if all Seamus has ever had is bad company (and considering his terror around Diane who's tried patiently to give him company I'd say that's evident) then he's going to take plenty of time and patience to realize this isn't a bad place. And I still argue it'll take baby steps. In so many ways they're no different than people - I spent a lot of time alone as a kid and as such I like a fair bit of alone time as an adult. When I joined the Air Force at 18 and suddenly spent 6 weeks with other people all the time - literally there wasn't a moment I had to myself - it drove me batty! But I made it through just fine. There was no coddling and hugs and cuddles, but it wasn't painful, either. What Seamus is going through IS hard on him and he probably is scared, but the consistancy is what will help. Being under the house for awhile isn't going to hurt him - consistantly having a nice person come around and let him get used to them and come to understand they won't hurt or torment him - THAT's what's gonna help.

My faith is in you, Diane. There's no right answer - everyone's different (dog and human) and it's gonna be tough on the poor fella, but with time he'll calm down and learn that this place isn't bad. Back to my Pit Bull mix - she's a scared dog, but not because she was abused - instead because from when she was 2 months to 4 months she was in a shelter - the staff just doesn't have the time to spend with the dogs like Diane's been spending with Seamus.

~L'aura

P.S.: Oh, and for the record - Blue is the apple of my eye - but I still call him a little







when he does something wrong and I think there's value in a dog seeing that someone can be angry/frustrated and that it DOESN'T mean they're going to get beaten.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Diane, I sent you a PM.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Strongheart...*shakes head*

Drama? DRAMA??? Where in heaven's name did you pull that from? I posted earlier in this thread that I have almost died 3 times in the past 10 years of outrageously dramatic, unexplained episodes. Drama? I don't want drama....I want nothing more than peaceful days and quiet nights. And when I first saw the thread about Seamus (then known as John), my heart went out to him, thinking that as a senior like myself, that's probably all he wanted as well.

I've owned other senior dogs and all they looked for was a soft bed, a warm meal and to sit at my feet while I scratched their backs with my bare toes. That's the type of dog I figured Seamus was going to be. I figured we two oldtimers could share our old achy bodies, lay back and rest together. Somewhere when Seamus was still enroute to me I posted that I was putting our two rocking chairs side by side so we could sit together and watch the young'uns frolic. The dog that arrived was nothing like what I expected and he's a ton more drama than I want or need.

So what was my motivation? Real simple. I hurt and ache and creak all over all the time, and I saw an old dog who probably felt the same way, but not in a place to have all those hurts, aches and creaks cared for or about. Out of the understanding of that 'probability' and the goodness of my heart, I adopted him....figuring I could make his life more comfortable. Nothing more and nothing less.

And just for your information, my degree is in psychology....I'm pretty aware of my good & bad motivations. I've taken some pretty hard hits here on things I was doing wrong but for some reason, that 'hidden agenda' motivation statement made me a bit angry. Don't stop giving me good advice but please keep the 'personal' interpretations out of it and keep it to dog info. It's a bit condescending, don't you think? I may be old but I'm anything but stupid.

JeanKBBMMMAAN.....I have also made it clear that I have used the NILIF techniques with my first two dogs, though probably not as consistently as those that train dogs professionally. Both Thor and Freya are "reasonably" well mannered and behaved. They sit and stay until both their food bowls are on the floor and I release them to go eat, for example. Even Seamus has learned that much already.

Now, about Seamus. The day or two in the kennel did NOT hurt him. He spent the night inside last night, he pooed and peed on our walk at bedtime, and he waited until our morning walk to repeat the process. He is back in his hallway and behaving as he did just before the battle. He is still barking, yipping and yapping as soon as I or one of the other dogs comes into his range of sight or sound but I've decided it's just his way of communicating. He's happy to see me, relatively indifferent towards Freya and downright grumbly with Thor...just as he's been since he got here.

I am taking Thor back to the vet tomorrow to have his cast removed and his leg checked for any further infection. Although Seamus actually LOVES to ride in cars (the bowel problems of our last trip notwithstanding...he was having bowel problems all week) he will stay in his hallway, Freya will stay in the living room while we're gone. I expect all will go well...or at least I'm hoping so...with Thor and I know all will be well here while I'm gone. There is no friction between Seamus and Freya and he will be entirely confined anyway. 

I will report in if anything changes but my daughter and I are busy painting her room and moving her stuff over, and along with my job, I'm a little busier than usual right now.

LUV_GSDs....I read your pm and am replying.


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

Diane,

Drat! Where is the HATS OFF emoticon when you need it? I think you are doing a GREAT job under very trying circumstances and showing remarkable "grace under pressure" and not all of it from Seamus









I am sorry if I have sounded like Ms.Know-it-all and pontificated about something. I guess it is our hubris to think that we *know* what should happen. I tend to forget that my opinions are coloured by my perceptions, which are influenced by my experiences with the dogs in my life. It still does not mean that what has worked with the dogs I have dealt with, is going to work for you. Yea, it may work for the majority of dogs, but not *all* dogs. 

Thank you for being so gracious and continuing to ask for help in dealing with Seamus. 

Also sent you a PM.

Take care


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Diane,

It could be that Seamus can live peacefully with female dogs. I don't think it is uncommon for dogs to dislike the same sex dogs or at least not be as comfortable as with dogs of the opposite sex. Or could it be that Thor is dominant over Freya and Seamus might be looking to take the pack order on? Who knows since we don't know his history....could be he have had to fight to stay alive? 
I think you are strong and Seamus will be fine with you for now. He is better alive with your attention than in a shelter somewhere. I know my dog LOVES to be outside..and she barks and makes alot of noise but that is the way she has always been. Tough to shut her up. Sometimes I think she is talking to herself like we humans do...she grumbles at her toys when no one is near.
Keep on Trucking


----------



## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: HatterasserStrongheart...*shakes head*
> 
> Drama? DRAMA??? Where in heaven's name did you pull that from? I posted earlier in this thread that I have almost died 3 times in the past 10 years of outrageously dramatic, unexplained episodes. Drama? I don't want drama....I want nothing more than peaceful days and quiet nights. And when I first saw the thread about Seamus (then known as John), my heart went out to him, thinking that as a senior like myself, that's probably all he wanted as well.
> 
> ...


You know I said "maybe you did this, etc." as a for instance type of thing. Guess I struck a nerve ha ha ha! You wasted people's time with your scatterbrained handling of the whole transport issue so you didn't sound totally together to me, far from it.

Just because you're a psychologist doesn't mean anything about yourself LOL! What does your shrink say? You're supposed to have one you know. Personally I think conventional psychology is BS anyway. Give me a Jungian anyday. All that a psychology degree tells me is that you've tortured cats and so you probably have a lot of repressed guilt like so many scientific types. I mean you just totally discounted your own degree with saying you don't need to examine yourself because you've got it all down. I guess you're a static personality then. Does that happen as we age? You tell me. The dog and you are in it together therefore you are part of the equation and part of the problem and solution - not irrelevant at all. Touché.

I was just suggesting that you realize your part in all of this. Anyone who takes in a dog they haven't even seen is asking for a whole bunch of trouble, much less the idea of whether they might not get along with your current dogs. If you're so good with psychology then I suggest you go to the library and check out some stuff by the protégés of BF Skinner and get with the positive training pronto, that should be right up your alley. All this advice you claim to be so enamoured of comes right of that school of thought. So put your nose to the grindstone with that instead of massaging your keyboard to sound like violin strings all the time. 

Signing off and signing out. Not checking this thread anymore. And since I can't afford to drive 6 hours anymore on transports and putting dogs in situations that are questionably better than where they came from, I may not check back with any threads on this board again. 

***shaking head***


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thinking positive thoughts for you, Diane, and for Seamus, too. Don't let forum stuff get you down, criticism can be helpful-- honestly-- but there are so many positive ideas here. I am so happy you took Seamus in and try your best with him! Your home, as much as a safe haven as it is, may simply be too stimulating for this particular stressed dog with his particular issues. (the yipping/barking is almost definitely stress) It could be that, even in a calm household with just 1 or 2 other dogs, is too much for Seamus. Or, that he has conflicts with Thor specificly, and this placement is not something Seamus can tolerate safely? 

Please take deep breaths, be good to yourself. I know you will do the best you can for this wonderful dog. There is no shame at all in saying your home/pack may not be the right fit for a sensitive, stressed dog. There is courage shown by foster home Moms all the time, in carefully looking for a more ideal foster placement for a too-stressed foster dog with unique problems, when the fit in their own home is not right for that stressed dog. Sending you good wishes Diane, and for Seamus too!


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

I think the tone of this "dialogue" is getting over the top and way too negative and to my mind counter-productive. And *totally* uncalled for.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I agree Strongheart is way too far over the edge. I feel for you...work all day come home to the dogs and then to have to deal with the stress of the attack and keeping them separate. I'm glad Kit is there now. AND Strongheart is saying that you mishandled the transport...what is that about????? I was watching the thread and you weren't kept informed about what was happening with the transport. Lets get back on track here with something constructive.

I know that even if you have to rehome Seamus you will find him the correct home because you have come to understand what he needs unlike the people who sent him your way.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It sounds to me like Strongheart was part of the transport and has invested time and money in this matter. I don't think the rest of us have the knowledge (or, for that matter, authority) to judge whether or not her post is "over the top." There's some relationship here that we don't know about and probably shouldn't know about. Perhaps both would be better served if they took the conversation private?


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Day 26 ..........(almost a month and the longest month I can ever remember...*grins*

Both Thor and Seamus are healing well, though Thor's leg was in question...the injury was at the joint and his joint was swollen for days and days. But his bandages came off Monday and they're both on tons of antibiotics...both seem to be recovering though both will have some ugly scars.

Kat came over yesterday (she will be moving back in about a week but she stops by with random boxes,etc.) and she took Seamus, I took Thor, and we walked. Thor virtually ignored Seamus, busy sniffing and investigating the findings on the side of the road. Seamus trotted along, but he kept glancing at Thor out of the corner of his eye. However, the entire walk was just that...a walk. No one even growled, though if we got too close, Seamus would try to pull away. The fact that it was neutral ground probably had a lot to do with this because as soon as everyone was back in the house, Seamus in his hallway, Thor and Seamus would gruff and growl and bark through the door at each other, even though they couldn't see each other. Think we need a lot more of these walks. 

But we cheer the small accomplishments. Seamus now sits immediately when I pick up his leash. And he sits and stays to wait for his food bowl as well. He has not had an accident since he came back into the hallway over the weekend but does both his pees and poos easily on our walks. And eye contact has returned. I sense the 'calming' signs now and am even more gentle when he seems nervous.

I have decided not to actively look for a re-homing environment just yet. I'd like his cuts and scrapes to heal first and I'd like to work a bit more with him first. I still don't think he will ever settle well with Thor as a companion but everything is relatively calm and quiet and has settled into a pattern now that seems to give him some peace and security. He's not as much the hyperactive lunatic that he was at first.

On a side note:: I have no idea who Strongheart is nor do I understand the reasons for the bee (s)he seems to have in his/her bonnet. There is no relationship between us as I've never heard of him/her until she began posting thus I cannot explain the reason behind the rather arrogant/sarcastic posts. For some reason, (s)he seems to have developed a dislike for me all on his/her own. Personally, I have nothing further to say to or about her. This thread is about, and always has been, the relationship between Seamus, me and the other two dogs....and I'd like to keep it that way. So...if we can just ignore those posts and move on, I'd sure appreciate it.

GO SEAMUS!!


----------



## twolfette (Jan 26, 2007)

Glad to hear it is going better Diane. I really get enjoyment reading your story of Seamus (at least enjoyment on the GOOD days) and I emphasize with your bad days.


----------



## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

Diane, what happy news. The neutral ground thing is very interesting. 

You may already know this, but -- based on personal experience -- I suggest adding an excellent probiotic to both dogs' diets to avoid candida overgrowth and stomach problems arising from the antibiotics. I make my own yogurt, so my dog gets that because I know it has strong live cultures. Probiotic powder (the good kind from the refrigerated section of the health food store) is available if the dogs are lactose intolerant.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

My dog loves yogurt and they sell the live culture pills in the supermarket now too; fairly cheap. Good to hear that the walk went well and now that Kat is moving in perhaps you will have more time for walks with the boys. The more time that they spend together not aggressing the faster they will learn to tolerate one another. I do believe some dogs can never be left alone together but if they could just peacefully exist when you are there as the pack leader that would be wonderful. Please keep posting.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Quick update.....

I add honey to their dog food and that seems to keep them just fine...have had no problem with their pooing or peeing....

All three dogs and Izzy (Kat's pug) went out for a walk together last night (3 people involved in holding the leashes)...Seamus was not happy: growled and lunged at Freya (closest to him). So it's back to just him and Thor as time allows. 

Meanwhile, both Seamus and Thor are healing slowly. I am concentrating on Seamus, taking him for longer walks even than Thor and Freya as he is more confined in his space than they are. He loves the beach. 

A pattern has set in...Thor and Freya in their part of the house and Seamus in his. I keep their sight range limited but Thor often stands by the door and Seamus stands on the other side and they bark and growl at each other for a few seconds, then walk away. It's as though they're both saying, "I'm still here." 

I am not actively searching for a rehome yet. I will wait until Seamus is off his meds and his scratches/gouges have healed. It's also giving him a lot more time to have a sense of security and safeness, and it helps a lot with him. He's really quite a character and a lovable boy...minus Thor, of course. Sadly, I see no sign that either one will ever accept the other and I just don't have years and years to get them to the point that they do. Both Seamus and I will have croaked before that ever happens. *grins*

That's it....have to head off for work...................later, guys.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How is Seamus doing? Is Thor healing up ok?


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

An entire month has gone by................

And I missed the anniversary...death in the family, work, daughter moving in, etc. kept my mind from dates. 

So where were we? Ah yes, Seamus! Seamus the little lunatic who greets me each morning with a four foot bouncing, a grin, and so much excitement and happiness to see me. Seamus who sits (though sometimes his little butt is bouncing up and down trying hard to sit still) and stays before he gets his food, before he has his leash attached, before I will sit with him to chat. He has to sit and be still before anything happens in his life. 

He comes with the mere clicking of my tongue against my cheek, just like the other two. He knows his name and responds to it. He walks very well on the leash, unless of course a neighborhood cat crosses his path, or a possum or a ****, then it's all I can do to hang on to him. But people, cars, bikes....no reaction.

I hate to say it but I'm becoming quite fond of the little guy. He is as cuddly as a bear, loves to be petted, scratched, hugged and snuggled. I can touch him anywhere without reactive behavior. When I greet him, his eyes are fixed on me...no more turning away and staring into space. He is trying so hard to please, though it's obvious he never learned how. 

We've walked Thor and Seamus together several times. Thor is fine, ignores Seamus and does his usual sniffing at the side of the road. Seamus is wild eyed, edgy and pulling away as far as he can (on a very short leash) from Thor. Heaven forbid should their fur touch...he growls and snarls and pulls away. Thor stares at me with almost a shrug and then goes back to his sniffing. He never reacts when we're outside.

I so wish I could bring Seamus into the main part of the house. I dislike isolating him from socialization with the family but...........in the house, he lunges at Thor, barks, snarls, growls. And in the house, Thor reacts in like fashion in return. Without the separation, I would live in constant fear of another blood bath.

You see, except for the occasional cat or wild animal, his nemesis is Thor. No matter what we've tried, he simply will not accept Thor anywhere near him. Kat has a boxer/pitbull mix, Oliver, about the same age as Seamus and a pug, Izzy, a little terror of a dog, who runs circles around Seamus, jumps on him, puts her flat little nose in his face. All he does with all the other dogs, including Freya, is eye them with curiosity...no barking, no snarling, no growling. But one look at Thor and he goes berserk. I keep wondering if there was a dog that resembles Thor in his past that scared him to death...or perhaps caused the original scars on his face that he had when he first came to us. I don't know what to do to correct the problem...but I do know we can't live like this either.

I do know though that he will make a lovely dog for someone someday, if I can just find that someone. He wants to be a family dog. He wants to please. He wants to be loved. And he loves people...no problem with any he's met so far. His meds are complete and his wounds are healed now (though there are some bare patches on his head until fur grows back, if it ever does). He's feeling a ton more secure and safe than he did a month ago. I guess the time has come to find him the perfect home for him with someone who understands he has issues but can be patient and continue guiding him as I've been doing...and doesn't have a Thor at home. *grins* 

What do you all think?


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Personally I think you are a saint.......I dont know if I could have done it. I take in fosters.......and had a tiff here and there......but if there was ever a serious injury to my little girl I'm not so sure my heart could have been as big as yours...I truly admire you and all I can say, it is a blessing that whoever is this guys forever home, they will never know the effort that went into bringing him back from the brink....and that is probably a good thing.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Hi Diane,

It's great to hear that you have brought Seamus to a point where he can be a wonderful addition to someone's family. I hope you can adopt him to someone nearby so that you can visit with him. I would bet that he and Thor might never get along; perhaps he could be placed with a female dog or smaller male dog....not one that looks like Thor. You never know he could have had a really bad event with a male GSD or some large male dog that left him afraid.

I think it is time to consider asking your vet to put up a photo along with Seamus' story and ask your neighbors if anyone might like him. If that doesn't bring in a new home then it's time for Petfinder.

I think you could keep working but you will feel guilty all the time not being able to allow Seamus to spend his time with the whole pack. I suspect that it would take a really long time before he and Thor can tolerate each other and I believe they should never be left alone together even if they show tolerance with you around. It could be that Seamus wants to be the next in line to you and Thor would probably never have that or as you said he could just be terrified of Thor.

Karen


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

This is a very interesting journal. I tell you I started reading it because of the second bite with Thor. I was not seeing you in a favorable light at the beginning of this thread.

I must say this was well written. You did a great job explaining the trials and tribulations and how an intelligent, well meanning person could get in over thei head.

Your lapse in judgement with Thor was a huge one but doesn't seem to be a pattern with you.

I will keep you in my prayers. Hope all turns out well for all involved


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Hey, how are the furry babies doing and you too Diane? There is a thread in the aggression section about two females fighting that you might want to read.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Seamus has not been forgotten..............

All focus has been on Thor lately but things are still moving along with the little boy from Ohio.

He's learning to play!!! I don't know why I'm so excited about this but it's true. I had put a tennis ball, a squeaky toy and a rawhide into his area some time back and tried to toss or throw them for him. He ignored everything but the rawhide. But it's like the rawhide was the key. Now every time I show up at the door/gate, he runs to find his bright red squeaky and brings it to me. He allows me to take it from him (he doesn't drop it but it's more like he hands it to me as if it were a gift). I toss it but he hasn't figured out that he should chase after it. But he will never fail to bring the toy or the rawhide, whichever he happens to find first, let me take it and then stand there grinning at me. I am so stupidly pleased.

While we've been out on the road lately, several folks have stopped to talk to me. He bounces happily over to them for a greeting. He truly does like humans. He doesn't seem to take affront at Kathryn's pug Izzy or her pit bull/boxer mix Oliver, particularly as Izzy is constantly mommicking him. This is good news as it seems to limit his aggression to Thor. I have to agree with several members here who have suggested that it may be just a battle to determine between the two of them which one of them is the dominant dog, Thor or Seamus. As Seamus's testosterone slowly subsides post-neutering, he is less aggressive, even towards Thor. Not to say that they don't face off through the door (glass windows, dontcha know) and growl and bark at each other a few times a day, but the number of times a day has lessened, and Seamus usually runs off to get his toy if he sees me come up behind Thor. 

There may be hope that we can bring him into the main pack at some point (though certainly not yet) for short, supervised visits some day. Thor is going to board and train with someone up the beach soon (when his quarantine for biting our neighbor is over) and will be gone for two weeks. I might try then and see how Seamus and Freya get along. When I bring Thor to the trainer's, he will be in the bed of the truck (it's covered with a cab). The trainer has asked me to bring Seamus along in the back seat of the truck (so they will be separated all the way) and she wants to watch the two of them to see which one is actually the aggressor. I'm saying it's Seamus but she tells me that Thor may be giving subtle clues that would make him the 'hidden' aggressor in actuality. Whatever she finds, she will be working with Thor in the hopes of resolving the problem to some degree for when he returns home again.

I have yet to begin to find another home for Seamus (have been rather distracted by the problem with Thor of late) but every day that Seamus stays, the more stable he becomes, so it isn't all bad. I still do plan to do so, however. My spontaneous decision to rescue him was for all the right reasons but in hindsight, it was an ill-advised move on my part. I have the time, energy and ability to manage two big dogs but three (especially one with Seamus's issues), and I find I'm in way over my head.

P.S. Yep, Karen, I've read it.....deja vu. lol


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Poor Thor perhaps the stress of the other male is getting to him. I am glad you found a trainer and an impartial eye to view the two boys in action. You are doing great and it really hasn't been a long time. I amazed to hear how far along Seamus has come.

So you read the thread...and that person had the dogs together from pups. But everyone says the same thing two females will kill each other and there is hope for two males. 

Good luck to Thor with his training.

sent a PM


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Somewhere on this thread I listed someone who used to be on this board, who is in the south, who works with northern breed type dogs. I don't know if he can help, but he may be able to help you find a second home if needed for Seamus. Even if he can provide application, reference, vet reference and home check forms and a courtesy post. 

I wonder who really is the problem-anyone else think-perhaps...Thor and not Seamus? We do know that Thor is able to make you think you are in charge of him when really, he's charming his way to doing what he wants. And I hate to say it, but I think of my dogs and know that if a female foster comes in and has a problem with Ava, it's because Ava is pushing her buttons (Ava is a professional button pusher-union card and everything). Of course Ava, being a crafty female, knows to stop right before she brings them to the frustration level of aggression-if I don't stop her before hand. Because I don't always catch Ava. She's sneaky. 

Ava actually made the resident dog pee herself on a home check. From across the room. While she (Ava) was standing behind me. Yeah-that's how professional she is. Soooo...that's my theory, that Thor is the button pusher and Seamus is ThorPavlov's dog. 

The reason I came to post on this thread was because they were in Chillicothe, OH on 60 Minutes last night. Really interesting, very, very sad with the jobs being lost there. One man was crying because his job will be gone by year end, his wife has MS and they will have no insurance. I thought of Seamus and saw where he came from and realized that as much as we like to think that these dogs are someone's priority, in an environment like that, they fall to the wayside.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANS
> Ava actually made the resident dog pee herself on a home check. From across the room. While she (Ava) was standing behind me.


I love this vision I have a sneaky female...and I know she pushes buttons even mine. She will even crawl on her belly when I put her in a down stay. Thor may just have been fine till Seamus since he didn't have to challenge anyone.

Sad to hear about the situation in Chillicothe, unfortunately, I think we will all be seeing more of this throughout the country. There are going to be tough times for all.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Update..........

I am reaching the breaking point!

Seamus, the dog who has been housebroken for weeks and weeks, has in the past two or three days begun to pee and poop multiple times a day ... in the house! He's peed on the washing machine, in a basket of clean clothes, on the wall. Every time I look in, there is another pile of poop on the floor. When I take him out, he sometimes poops, sometimes pees, though frequently the past two days, he won't do anything while we're outside. But even if he does, as soon as he's back inside he makes a point of pooping and peeing practically immediately.

After the 4th or 5th poop today (on the floor), I almost wanted to stick his face in it, I was sooo angry, but I amazed myself and merely cleaned it up and took him out for another walk (the third in a few hours). He peed a little bit and pooped a tad and I praised him mightily and then brought him home again. He pooped again on the floor.

During this past few days, his barking, yapping, snarling has increased as well. He actually growled at me the other night when I was putting his leash on. 

The final straw was when he almost went through the glass door and the gate to attack Thor yet again. Thor was doing nothing but laying quietly on the kitchen floor watching me do some dishes, not even looking in Seamus's direction (so there were no hidden aggressive moves on his part). Seamus looked....how can I put this?...maniacal in his effort to reach Thor. 

There have been absolutely no changes in the household from the normal day to day operations of the household. There has been nothing to instigate this latest string of events. Everything is the same as always; walking, feeding, playing, visiting and training times have not changed. Nothing to account for this regression. Three days ago I had such hope for him but now...it's like he's an entirely different dog.

Right now, Seamus is in the kennel outside while I try to decide if the time has come to put him down or keep on trying to rehab him. I had hoped that when Thor went off to stay with the trainer I could bring him into the main part of the house while Thor was away but not any more. I can't have him growling at Freya and me nor pooping and peeing all over the house. The idea of rehoming him is in the bucket for now. I don't understand why he's behaving this way all of a sudden and if I can't trust him, how can I be irresponsible enough to foist him on someone else.

I've tried so hard but Seamus's sudden unexplained behavior over the past three days is beyond me. I can't take much more...truly I can't.


----------



## RobinB (Feb 7, 2008)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Is it possible that Seamus is sick? That could explain the sudden change in bathroom habits....


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Brain tumor? Epilepsy? (seizures do not at all have to be the shaking/unconsious, visible type) Did your daughter move into the home recently? He is at least surely feeing effects and in tune with the the energy/high anxiety of the last few weeks with all that happened re George/Thor.

Can you ring a rescue in mainland NC to help you? Please take deep breaths, he is an unwell dog and isn't doing this to upset or hurt you. Absolutely I too would be at my breaking point now. Seamus is upset and/or ill. This is his cry for help. As frustrating as it is to not see the cause for his stress, it is still there to him.

Please take a good hot bath, try to relax... he is picking up on your stress surely, and the stress is hard for you, too. I am sure someone here will have more helpful advice than I have.

I wish you and Seamus the very best, Diane. The best for you, because you have tried so hard, have such a good heart, and want the very best for your dogs. I wish the best for Seamus, because of his stress-- you are all he has right now, and I am certain he feels vulnerable. 

Wishing you both good things.


----------



## KAKZooKpr (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I'm wondering if he is sick as well. Have you had any bloodwork done on him? I know I've seen on other discussion boards that a thyroid imblance can cause aggression/personality issues. I'm sorry that you are going through all of this.







My heart goes out to you & the dogs.

Kristina


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

If he's ill, it's something not apparent. He's eating happily every day as usual, drinking the usual amount of water. It reminds me of the thread that listed him in the first place. He was initially listed as aggressive but then that changed to just a 'sad senior searching for a forever home'. When I emailed the woman at the Ross Co. Shelter, she responded that he WAS aggessive when they first brought him in but then became a loving dog, so they removed the aggression label, figuring it was just reaction to the ACO's picking him up.

But maybe that's not what it was. Perhaps he has his 'moments', unexplained, and uninstigated.

Yes, Kat has moved home but has been here for quite some time now. She has her own entrance so hardly ever sees Seamus unless she's doing a load of laundry. And the past 10 days of Thor's quarantine have not been that stressful, actually. In fact, I've been more relaxed and at ease knowing that Thor (and George too) was going to be okay and further that we had finally found a trainer for him. That was a big thing for me and for Thor. 

No, it's nothing stressful (in me or the household) that has caused this sudden change. I could perhaps take him to the vet for blood/thyroid tests...that might show something. Frankly, it's the only thing left to check. As I said, this was an overnight behavioral change. One day he was plodding along (even learning to play) quite well, and the next he was a different dog. I know in my heart that he isn't doing anything intentionally to upset me....it's just as if he doesn't care one way or the other. He isn't the same dog he was last week for whatever reason....brain tumor, epilepsy, thyroid imbalance or maybe he's just looney.

Hey, maybe if I wait a day or two, he'll turn back into that 'sad senior searching for a forever home' again. *giggling... with a touch of hysteria*


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

*Darn, there's no way to edit a former post so double post here*

Contacting a mainland NC rescue is iffy. Seamus is not a purebred so not sure who I would contact. Anybody have any ideas who I might call/email/etc.?


----------



## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

A urinary tract infection may cause the accidents of both kind.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Diane, i have heard that too about urinary tract infections causing both poop and pee indoors suddenly.. I wonder? Plus, they can make a dog feel MUCH more insecure, vulnerable.. read that: behavioral flare-ups, too.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Sorry to hear that Seamus is not doing well, Diane. Behavioral changes accompanied by bladder and bowel control problems are almost always indications of an underlying health problem. Dogs are wonderful at masking pain. There have been so many times that my dogs have been sick but still had a good appetite and energy level.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

It could be that Thor was gone a while and Seamus is now upset about re-establishing the pack order. Everytime a wolf goes away from the pack it has to be accepted back in or run off or worse yet killed. I agree dogs pick up on our feeling instantly; just like they know immediately if a human fears them or the human is an alpha type. I really think Seamus needs a home with a 'very' experienced person that has dealt with abused dogs. I know given time you can probably retrain him but do you have that energy level and would you be able to live that way for a year or two to help Seamus get back to being a normal dog? I think it is time to ask your trainer and vet for help to see if they can find a home for him.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Strange turn of events..............

I took Seamus to the vet's on Saturday to have them check him out. Friday morning there were three piles of poop (not runny), two puddles of viscous yellow pee and a pile of vomit. Something wasn't right so off we went to the vet's.

The doc and I sat and talked for quite some time about him and his vacillating behavior problems. All the while, Seamus was licking both our hands and bouncing around just happy to be with the two of us. *shakes head in disbelief* She said his aggressive behavior is NOT normal "aggressive" behavior seen in aggressive dogs. She wondered if he had (as someone earlier suggested) a brain tumor or some form of epilepsy (she brought it up, I never suggested it).

She said that Seamus cannot remain in our house...it is too stressful for all of us, including Seamus, of course. *NO KIDDING...grins* She has come up with a solution.

Bottom line.....Seamus is boarding at the vet's now. She and the other doctors are going to check him physically, and watch and evaluate him through the next week. If they feel he is not truly dangerous or mentally unstable, they are going to work with the local shelter and with their own clients, and see if they can re-home him from there. She herself said that he will need a 'special conditions' home....one with only adults (and no other animals) who are willing to take him on (no easy task to find).

However, if at the end of the week, they find he is un-rehabilitable (is that even a word?) due to mental and/or physical problems, she will call me and let me know that too. It would be wise at that time to put him down, she says. But, given his love of humans and their attention, they may find that with the right home, he will be okay. It depends if his behavior is due to stress, anxiety and other issues with a dog like Thor or some physical problem (like brain injury/illness).

I'm keeping my paws crossed that he is physically well, and they can find a good home for him as a result. Right now the house is sooooo quiet, without both Seamus and Thor and just me and Freya. Thor is boarding at the trainers....more of that in the 'aggression' forum thread. Freya and I don't know what to do with ourselves so we went to beach this morning, met up with a wirehaired terrier and played for half an hour before ambling on home. *grins*

I wonder what will happen if he's physically okay and they CAN'T find him a home by the end of a week. I guess he'll have to come back here as boarding him there forever is hardly plausible. Ah, well, taking the quiet of this week to rest and we'll see what we shall see.
_________________________
Diane
Mom to Thor, Freya and Seamus


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I wish you and Seamus the best. I know from your other thread that Thor is doing well at the trainers and I think thats wonderful. please let us know what the vet says. Maybe there is some physical reason for hes new behavior and he can be helped. Its so sad that someone has damaged this poor boy to the point that he is such a special needs adoption now. You and Freya need to really relax and enjoy this week. Hugs and support to you both, you have been through much lately.


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Diane,

With all of your dedication to your dogs, it sounds like things are looking up. You really live on a roller-coaster.

Fingers crossed here that your compassionate vet can cure Seamus and find him the right home.

Fingers crossed here that Thor will gain a little confidence from the trainer and ace his CGC.

Mary Jane


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I know if Seamus is found to be well and loves humans this much he will find a home. Breath deep this week and enjoy the beach.


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Personally...aside from medical issues...I would not trust a vet to assess a dog on behavior issues....

I really wish you would reconsider and try contacting a rescue...such as the good one that Jean B. suggested. It saddens me that he will end up euthanized or back in the shelter system...........


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Myamom....You have no faith. *laughing*

I have just spoken to the vet. Earlier this week, they requested all the information I could provide them regarding the contact at the shelter in Chillicothe, the transport coordinator, and I even tossed in the link to the journal from here. They have been very busy using the information I provided.

Dr. B. said she was able to contact Michelle, the transport coordinator who originally took on the job of getting Seamus down to NC. As Irish luck would have it....it is after all almost St. Pat's day and Seamus is a good old Irish name *chuckling*....Michelle knew of a couple whose old dog crossed the bridge and were searching for a senior GSD mix to replace him. Dr. B emailed the couple yesterday complete with pictures and is waiting to hear back. 

The home is ideal in that this household has no other pets. They have noted at the vet's office this past week that Seamus is aggressive towards any dog who comes even close to his space so the lack of other pets is a boon. 

However, Seamus's tummy problem (and yes, he had an intestinal bowel problem most likely caused by stress) is easing up and he has become better at walking on the leash. He's also begun to re-learn how to play as the staff spends lots of time with him with an old towel and balls, along with taking him everywhere with them when they have to run errands (he loves riding in cars but we always knew that).

He will remain at the vet's until they hear back from the people looking for a replacement dog and he will NOT be euthanized (though the Ross County Humane Society did give permission to do so if necessary but Dr. B. doesn't think it will be necessary). Even if they don't take him, Michelle is working with the vet's office to find a home....so keep the faith.

All I can ask of everyone is keep all your paws crossed. There is hope yet for our old critter.


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

why would the vet need Ross County HS's permission to euth him...as opposed to yours? Have you signed him over to them?


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I wonder if euthen him wouldn't be best? I hate for someone else to go through what Diane has. 

I remember the post where she said she had purchased a rocking chair for him and the elders would watch the youngins play. HAH!

There are so many good dogs that need help. I hate to say it but cases like Seamus are why so many hesitate to rescue. Put all the time money and resourses into all the healthy stable dogs.

Seamus might not have a saint the next time and be in for a world of trouble.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

It is unbelievable to me that people are writing that Seamus should be euthanized.







Reread his thread. He has issues with other dogs and primarily with her dog, Thor. He is great with people. The difference between what Diane has gone through with Seamus (and Thor who no one is advocating should be euthanized) is that she has written it down in this forum. Had most of us written down what we have "gone through" with our dogs, whether they are rescues or our dogs purchased from breeders, I think we would see many similarities. Just read posts from people with working line dogs who destroy thousands of dollars of their stuff or dogs from breeders who have major health problems or attack other dogs, cause accidents to their people, etc., etc. 

How about we give Seamus the same chance and positive energy that we've given to Thor or any other dog on here who has issues? 

Seamus deserves a home where he will be loved and cherished and where he can be the only animal!


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Excellent post Ruth!!

Seamus has not attacked and bitten a person twice...yet he is the one that should be euth'd while the other gets to go to a trainer? Because he doesn't get along with Thor??


----------



## KAKZooKpr (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I agree with Ruth. It seems that even when Seamus has his aggression "fits", it is directed towards another animal and not at humans. If Seamus can go to a home without other pets he will probably be just fine!

I agree that sometimes there are dogs that should be pts, but I don't think that Seamus needs to be one of them.

Kristina


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Myamom....That is an interesting question. I know the Ross County Humane Society held the right to accept him back if I could not deal with his problems but the right to euthanize?? I did not sign over rights to the vet's to decide his future and I may, if he has not found a home, take him back on Monday or Tuesday when I go to pick up Thor. I am uncomfortable with the presumption that anyone (the vet's, the original transporter, the former shelter, etc.) can make decisions about what happens to him. Whether he fits in with our household or not, he IS my dog, and it will be up to me to make decisions about what happens to him. It's been me who has put in the time, effort and money to save him and I intend to remind the others about that.

So no, he will not be euthanized, even if he does not find another home with the people Dr. B spoke about...which reminds me that I have not yet heard anything about that yet though it is the weekend. In any case, if the people decide they don't want him, I will revert back to the original plan of taking him to the trainer, so she can evaluate his behavior around other dogs, particularly Thor, and give me her opinion on his rehabilitation first. 

I refuse to give up on this dog. As Ruth pointed out, his issues have never been with people, all of whom he seems to get along with just fine. He has issues with other animals, as Dr. B pointed out...when they walk him past any dogs or any dogs walk too close to his space, he has a fit (so it's not just Thor that he apparently doesn't like...he's territorial wherever he is). I will continue to work on finding him a home without other pets, whatever happens.

All this reminds me of a story... (but of course). When Kat was born, she was early and her nervous system was not fully developed. Thus she spent the first 5 or 6 months of her life screaming constantly. One day, I had her at the office where I was trying to set up a workshop with someone on the phone, with her screaming in the background. She was about 5 months then, and I picked her up and told her, "Babies are supposed to sleep 20 hours a day and cry for 4. You have it backwards, sweetie...." and then I lost it. Sobbing hysterically, I called my hubby whose office was a couple miles down the road. He told me to bring her over there. I put her in the car, drove to his office and was met by the VP's secretary, a five foot one Master Sargent, who called out orders to the other women in the office. "Grace, take Kathryn and go for a walk with her. Bev, go get your boss. Jean, get Mrs. P a cup of coffee." When my sheepish looking hubby appeared, she told him to take us both home and I was not to see the child until the following morning...I was to get some sleep.

We went home where I fell upon the bed and was asleep immediately. About 11 that night I woke to Kat's screaming. Shaking cobwebs from my head I wandered to where she was, only to hear hubby pleading with her. "I changed you, fed you, checked for any loose pins. I don't know what else to do. What's wrong?" (as if she would answer him...*chuckles*) I said I'd take her, and he looked appalled. "But Eileen said you weren't supposed to see her until morning?" Laughing, I said I had slept a full 6 hours (more than I had in months) and I was okay now.

It's much the same with Seamus's situation right now. I've had a week's break and I'm rested and ready to work with him again. Sorry for the analogous comparison but it does apply here. *smiles*


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*



> Originally Posted By: mjb03
> There are so many good dogs that need help. I hate to say it but cases like Seamus are why so many hesitate to rescue. Put all the time money and resourses into all the healthy stable dogs.


Take a stroll through the archives of this site and check out the posts from people who have purchased german shepherds. They include dogs with major dog aggression, incredibly expensive health problems, aggression towards people and other behavioral issues. Some of these dogs are from excellent lines and reputable breeders. I have never heard anyone suggest people not buy a dog for these reasons or that one of those dogs should be euthanized so that resources can be put into a better dog.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I still feel Seamus can do well if placed in a home without other pets. He would be the king of his home and could love his humans without fear of other dogs.


----------



## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Quite frankly, given the short time that Diane has had Seamus, I think he's come a long, long way. It's tough having two (or more) dogs in a home if one of them isn't too keen on one (or more) of the others, but didn't I read that Seamus gets along with some other dogs, but just not Thor?

From what I've read, I'm much more concerned about Thor than Seamus. A dog with people aggression issues is much harder to deal with, and a greater liability, than a dog that doesn't get along with a dog that has aggression issues.

In fact, I can see why Seamus might be afraid of, or just not like, Thor. 

I think it's unreasonable to expect any dog to get along with every single other dog it encounters. I don't get along with every other person I encounter, so why should my dog?


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Great point Susan. You are so correct about people aggression. So if Seamus were to be rehomed with no other dogs then it's no big deal to just not have other dogs visit his home or to make a wide path when walking and another dog is approaching. Tougher not to let humans into your home to visit


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Kudos to those taking up for Seamus. (Which most certainly includes Diane/Hatterasser)

Seamus has endured incredible challenges throughout his life. With time, patience, training & the right home he can very likely be a sane, loving, smart & loyal pet.

I've seen problematic dogs (& cats) turn completely around almost effortlessly when placed in a different home. Sometimes a change in environment can make a HUGE & immediate difference.

Often times these animals were in decent homes, but somehow terribly wrong for them...perhaps due to other animals, small children or inadequate exercise.

Diane, I can certainly empathize with the situation you described with your daughter. My daughter was the world's worst sleeper. She didn't sleep through the night ever until she was over 4. After 4 it was very hit or miss. From ~15mos old to 4yr she woke up 4-5 times a night. Prior to that she woke up roughly every 30 minutes.

Leading up to midterms her 1st yr she had a bad bout of ear infections, colds, flu & what all. She woke up cranky & fretful at least every 10" for 2 solid weeks. I told my genetics prof she'd been ill a lot & I might need to reschedule the night exam. He gave me a snide smile & said, "Oh! A sick child...How *CONVENIENT* for you." 

I stood there blinking stunned disbelieving, FIGHTING the urge to grab him, yes GRAB him by the cajones & bring him whimpering to his bony knees. When I regained my voice (& sanity) I told him, "mmmm & you have 4 children...Well, I guess we both know who raised them." He blushed & muttered he really was better than useless. I snorted & told him he'd never prove that by me.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Yup, there are dads out there that go to work everyday and leave those kids to mom. The worst boss' are those that are like this too.

How are Seamus and Thor????? I need my update. Diane you really need to turn this into a book


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

How is the "ol' man" Seamus doing??


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Part 1 of a two parter (other part in the "A second bite and I'm terrified" post in the Aggression Forum).

But now, how about that Seamus! I picked him up from the vet's on the way to the trainer's today. He sat in the back seat of the truck while George sat in the front. When we arrived, Laura had me move my truck with Seamus in it away from the area while she worked with Thor and George (more on that in the above named post) as she didn't want Thor distracted by seeing me for the first time in 10 days. When that was over, she had me put Thor in the back of the truck and then bring Seamus over to her. Needless to say, he pulled wildly on the leash and her eyebrow rose. "Don't you have a pinch collar for him?" I told her the tale of our first effort with that and was tempted to show her where the bruises were from falling down the stairs. When I explained how he screamed like I was killing him and rolled in the air, the eyebrow came up again. "Watch and learn," I was told.

She put on a pinch collar and marched off saying firmly "Heel". He went into his death roll, screeched, tossed himself around in the air, and she kept on trucking, calling over her shoulder that this was all a 'show' he was putting on for me. Within half an hour, she had him heeling/turning/sitting on command. I was royally impressed. 

Then she had her assistant bring out a female shepherd and went through a routine with the female passing and walking/sitting side by side. A death roll or two, a tangle now and then but no aggression. Out came a male shepherd, same routine, same general behavior. 

Then the big move. Out came Thor and he and Seamus went through the same routine; passing on the road, walking side-by-side, sitting next to one another. Seamus's behavior didn't change at all. He heeled/turned/sat with the random death roll thrown in, of course, but no snarls, growls or aggression. *snickers*

Her final opinion?? She says Seamus learns far more quickly even than Thor but that he is also far more stubborn and obstinate. There is no reason why he couldn't co-habit with the pack, though he'll probably never 'play' with them nor will he ever be buddy-buddy with them. However, he can learn to be 'civil' and not aggressive, but it will take a lot of socialization with other dogs and a lot of obedience training. He's a loner and very VERY dominant and requires a very strong alpha leader while he goes through his training (something she's working on with me..*giggles*). 

She also thinks I should switch the dogs out a couple times a day; i.e. contain Thor and Freya in Seamus's hall and bring Seamus out into the house with me during the next week. At some point, after some further obedience training, I should be able to bring all three together for short periods of time (well supervised, naturally). But already some of the training is functioning. Thor and Seamus met at the gate and Seamus began to snarl and growl, Thor rumbled back. I told them both to "Leave it!" and "Back" and both turned away from each other and stopped grumbling.

Bottom line, while we're trying to find him a home better suited to him (she does think he'd be happier being 'king' of his own household, so to speak), both he and Thor will be going to obedience classes with me once a week. And during the week, I know what to do to continue the training. I just took him out and he walked like an angel at my side and sat (without a word from me) the minute I stopped. Yep, he's learning fine, but he wouldn't leave my side even when he had ten feet of leash to do so. So it was a nice walk but he didn't do any of his business. Will he leave my side to pee and poo, I wonder? *grins*

As of now, the vet's office has no word yet on the people they contacted about him. I will call them tomorrow and tell them how well he did today though. It should certainly help his reputation to know he is 'trainable'. 

UPDATE Today: He did it! He peed and pooed both last night and this morning. And he walked on leash like a good boy. And he and Thor have barely noticed each other all day. I LOVE TRAINERS! Three cheers to all of them.


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I agree this would make a great book.


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Wonderful news!







It has been a rocky ride, thank you for hanging in there!!









Your posts and those of others have given me lots of information. Thank you for continuing to post such detailed updates.

cheers


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

With so much going on in the GSD world on this site, I hate to post trivia but I thought some of you might be interested in this small Seamus update. 

No, I haven't heard anything about the phantom family that might have been interested in him so he is still here in the household with us. I've been keeping up with the basic training to 'heel', 'sit', 'stay' stuff and busy grooming him daily (his fur is shedding in huge gouts and my lawn looks like someone was picking cotton and dropped a bundle). I have concluded this dog NEVER sleeps. No matter how I sneak up on him, even in the middle of the night, he's wide awake, sitting or more often standing and pacing around. His energy exhausts me. *Laughing* No wonder he doesn't gain weight, he's still so bony.

BUT...the interesting news is that he is now spending several hours every day in the main part of the house with Thor, Freya and me. I keep his prong collar and a leash on at all times and he is always where I can see/grab him in a second. The bad news is he did growl at Thor a couple of times but I gave him a quick correct and told him "NO! Leave it" and he stopped immediately. The good news is that he's staying for longer and longer periods of time with no aggression towards either Thor or Freya, who have both been sniffing at him. He even sniffed at Freya all by himself. 

And he has shared their toys as well. I threw one which he ran and grabbed but then he dropped it and Thor picked it up. He stared at Thor for a long moment but then almost shrugged and wandered off. 

So, the little bugger is slowly but surely becoming a member of the pack. Still would not trust him alone with the others but it's a big difference from the early days.

OH! And I saw this and didn't know where to put it here on the GSD site but I thought some of you might appreciate it. It made me cry.
CLICK HERE

If someone can find the right place for it, please feel free to move it.


----------



## gretasgifttome (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

You've had Seamus just over 2 months and you both have come so far. You are an inspiration.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Glad to hear things are going so well! You must be very relieved!


----------



## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I have been checking back to see how things are going and I am THRILLED with your post...What a great update...I would still be weary about Thor and Seamus...to error on the side of caution would be my motto...we certainly don't want any more issues...

This is just the BEST news...Congratulations to you...and be proud...you have overcome quite a bit in the past two months...Again, I am THRILLED for you all...Judy


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

HOORAY! Great to hear Seamus is beginning the process of fitting into the pack. Thank you for hanging on when the going was tough.


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Sad news....Seamus was put to sleep last night.

I know all your jaws are dropping, especially since he had been doing so well, but hear me out. Something snapped in his head last night. He went into aggression mode and we couldn't pull him out of it. 

I had fed all three dogs...Seamus finished first and ran to me, bouncing with glee as he always did...he was so happy being a part of the household. We both headed back for the kitchen with him running ahead of me. Thor and Freya were still eating; Seamus stopped for a brief moment (staring at Freya) and before I could get to his side, he nipped Freya, barked and dug into her food bowl, pushing her aside. She gave a short growl, more or less to say, "Hey buddy, that's my bowl, you have your own." Seamus turned and began to maul her; she squeeled, I tried to grab his dragging leash to pull him back.

At that point, Thor came charging around the corner like a bat out of **** and slammed himself between Freya and Seamus, shoving at Seamus to back off. Seamus unfortunately was in full aggression mode by that time and went for Thor's neck again. A full out battle ensued. I don't have to describe to any of you what a dog fight is like but you have to envision the space. My kitchen floor area is about 7' by 7'...a small area for 3 GSD's and one human to be in during a dog fight. Further, they knocked over a can of paint with a plastic top that went flying, so we were all sliding around the floor just trying to get our footing in two gallons of paint. I finally found Seamus's leash in the midst of all the paint and blood but as luck would have it, during the fighting, his collar had snapped off so I ended up with a leash and collar and no Seamus. Freya was at her wit's end, continually running close them and wimpering in desperation.

I finally grabbed a large sheet and threw it over Thor's head, blocking his vision and nose, and began to pull with all my might. He finally had to let go and I was able to keep him behind me, blinded, and sitting in the paint I was able to hold Seamus between my foot and a cabinet. When they were all calm enough to move, I led Thor and Freya to the back deck and Seamus to his hallway. I was shaking so much by that time that all I did was take a roll of paper towels and try to clean the paint and blood off the stove, dishwasher, refrigerator and lower cabinets to calm myself. The floor was two inches deep in paint so I stepped over as much of it as I could and went to check the dogs. 

Thor's face was mauled badly...a gash from his eye across his cheek, two huge punctures below the gash and a gash in one ear. Seamus I couldn't check. The last time the two fought, when it was over, Seamus acted like nothing had happened but this time, his aggression did not turn off. He snarled and snapped at me so I couldn't get close enough to see anything specific, though his neck fur was bloody but as the last time, it could have been Thor's. I called the vet and arranged to meet the doctor there at nine pm. Then it was getting everyone in the truck and going up the beach. Thor and Freya (I took her because she was soooo frantic I figured it was better to have her along with Thor) got into the truck with no problem. Seamus, however, was a different story. He wouldn't let me near him to put on a collar so I finally looped a leash and caught his head that way. All the way to the vet, he was snarling and pacing in the back seat. I was scared to death of him. 

His aggression was still in full mode at the vet's, snarling, snapping, barking at me and the vet. We put a muzzle on him but he tossed and twisted and snarled and we couldn't hold him to do anything. We couldn't do much besides put him in a cage while she attended to Thor. When I brought Thor in, Seamus went beserk. I thought he was going to pull the cage apart. For the next two hours, while we worked on Thor, Seamus barked, threw himself around in the cage, snarled. I went to the cage and tried to talk quietly to me but his eyes were wild and he just continued to throw himself around, barking and snarling.

The vet and I discussed leaving him there overnight to give him a chance to calm down, but even she looked doubtful. Finally I hesitantly brought up the thought that maybe .. he was not going to calm down and that maybe .. the time had come.... She was very sympathetic and pointed out that I had given Seamus my all but that maybe.. it was time to pack it in and give the poor mite "peace at last". When reluctantly, I gave the okay, she got out the sedative needle. We took Seamus from the cage (not an easy task as he was wild) and I held him as best I could while she attempted to put the sedative into his back leg. He shrieked, snarled, twisted around, tried to bite her, me, anyone. Three broken needles later, she finally got the sedative in and slowly, oh sooooo slowly he began to quiet. Even then, he was still in fighting mode. His four legs were sprawled out on the floor and they never stopped moving....it was as though he was swimming across the floor towards his demons. 

It took a long while for him to become sedated though his eyes never closed and were still wild looking. I sat with him, tears running down my face, talking quietly to him, telling him it would be alright now. He would be in a green meadow with other dogs and cats and they would all be friends, that he would have no more demons to fight. I told him how sorry I was that such a bright mind had been so warped along the way, and it was such a waste. I commiserated with him about what a hard life he had had but I hoped he knew he was loved at the end of it. 

And he was loved. I had come to love that little critter and was so proud of what he had accomplished at the end. We don't know what it was that finally snapped in his mind but I am not sorry that the last weeks of his life had been happy ones. But he was sooo troubled. I could never have brought him home again without fear and anxiety that he would go off the deep end again for no reason. I could not put Freya in the state of anxiety and terror she was in last night again. She still has not calmed down and sticks to my side all the time, her eyes searching, her ears listening for any sign of what caused that terror. And Thor is once again mauled and torn apart which is so unfair to him.

I pray that our Seamus has found that green meadow. I thank all of you who went through this with me and though I am still crying as I type this, I do believe it was the best answer given the situation. I feel like I've failed him somehow and I will live with that little niggle of doubt and guilt forever. So please, don't hit me too hard....I already hurt too much as it is.

Farewell, dear Seamus. This will be my last post in your honor.


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Dear Diane,

I am looking at the keyboard trying to find words.

You have gone the last mile for Seamus and then one more and then one more..... 

Surely you had no other choice-for the sake of Thor and Freya, for your sake, and indeed for the sake of Seamus.

I'm so sorry that you all had to go through this.

my best wishes,
Mary Jane


----------



## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*








Seamus. Run free and happy.








to you and your crew!


----------



## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I am very very sorry you had to go through this. Personally, I would have fed the dogs in a crate but that's hindsight now anyways. The only thing you can do is hold the things dear you learned from Seamus and apply it to the next 'complicated' dog (in honour of Seamus) 
I am sure it was a difficult decision and I know how bad it can be to separate dog fights. Hopefully Freya and Thor will be healed up soon. Did Thor need stitches? 

Thank you for sharing your experience. I am very sorry for your loss. RIP Seamus. You are free now. 
Take good care of yourself after that traumatic event.
All the best
Astrid


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I'm so sorry Diane, I know you must be heartbroken. I know you did your best for Seamus.


----------



## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Diane, I'm crying with you. You worked so hard to help his tormented soul. My brother had a bulldog who behaved much the same and unfortunately had the same ending. 

I don't know of many people who would have tried any harder than you did with Seamus. He could have turned on you at any time and what would you have done by yourself? You did not fail him..period.. It was what happened to him before that failed him. With you he knew a warm bed, a full tummy and someone who loved him unconditionally.

There is no doubt in my mind that he's been released from his demons and is happy and healthy again. He was welcomed by so many that have gone before him, so don't worry - he's safe and loved and will never be sad or angry again.

I'm so sorry. I hope time will heal Freya's anxiety and I know it will heal Thor's wounds. I'm sure they will recover much more quickly than you will. My thoughts are with you..


----------



## gretasgifttome (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*



> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser I do believe it was the best answer given the situation. I feel like I've failed him somehow and


Dear Diane,

I am so sad for your loss. You are the only one that did not fail Seamus in my opinion. *You did your best *and that is more than anyone has ever done for him before. None of us here are perfect and sure, we can reflect back and wonder 'what if' all day long, but it won't change things. I hope you, your Thor and Freya all heal quickly. No one will ever forget Seamus. He taught eveyone something.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I am so sorry to hear this. And I am not trying to offer criticism after the fact or make anyone feel worse about what is already done. 

Purely as an education point for anyone else with similar issues - do NOT feed your dogs together! Many dogs who otherwise get along fine will fight under these circumstances. I would have a brawl a day in my house if I fed my dogs communally. Feeding in crates helps dogs like their crates and allows everyone to eat comfortably and without worrying about another dog eating their food. For dogs who are already antsy about other dogs, food and high value treats can be fuel on the fire. And every time dogs get in a fight and get hurt or even just scared, it makes them that much more likely to get in a fight again because they're that much more anxious and tense - which lowers the threshold it takes to send them into aggression. 

From the description, after the fight Seamus was absolutely terrified and saw everyone and everything as a threat.

RIP little guy.


----------



## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I have not posted but have been following the story of Seamus from the beginning. Please know that you did more than many others would or could have done. Seamus was well loved at the end of his life. Don't beat yourself up and know that he is running free now.
God Bless


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

chillicothe john, bless your soul, may you rest in peace.


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I haven't been here for a while and now I am crying. I am so sorry for all of you. You tried really hard and knew that he could be very dangerous so he could not have been rehomed. I hope that you all heal well and that Thor and Freya aren't left with permanent scars. I wonder if this is how Seamus found his way to the shelter he was in, in the first place?


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Words escape me!
Be at peace poor Seamus.

Maybe it was abrain tumor or something.

You gave him a great life and now he is truly in peace.


----------



## KAKZooKpr (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Diane,

I was so sorry to read this today! You have my deepest sympathies & I believe that you did all the you could for poor Seamus. People have written about the feeding situation, but I believe that Seamus was like a ticking bomb, if it wasn't this scenario it could easily have been another. I truly believe that there was probably a medical issue underlying everything. This may be hard to think about, but was there a post-mortem exam done to see if there was something like a brain tumor or anything else? If it was me, I would probably want to know.

Seamus is finally at peace, I only hope that you, Thor & Freya find peace and healing together.

My thoughts are with you,
Kristina


----------



## butterfingers (Jun 5, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Oh my gosh, Diane, this had me absolutely in tears.







I so feel for you, Thor, Freya, and of course dear Seamus. At least now he has finally found peace.

Blessings to you all.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*



> Quote: truly believe that there was probably a medical issue underlying everything.


I think that would make everyone feel better and I feel bad dredging up the negative, but I also think it's important in Seamus' memory and for other dogs in similar situations to have as much clarity as we can. 

Reading back through everything, I just don't see that there was any evidence of a medical issue. He was aggressive towards other dogs and had poor dog-dog social skills. He was fine with people. A brain tumor or other pathology isn't going to distinguish between those categories. Unpredictable rages and other biological causes don't erupt as a part of resource guarding. That's behavioral. 

As horrific as his last night was for all involved, I don't see that even then his behavior was surprising or hard to understand. He started a fight with Freya over food, Thor got involved, everyone was terrified. Going for the throat looks to people like an out of control dog who is trying to kill the other but it's actually a very normal way for dogs to brawl. The neck is heavily furred and damage is minimal. At some point Seamus locked onto Thor's face and it sounds as though in pulling the dogs apart skin got torn and injuries worsened (I've made that mistake myself







). 

Seamus was completely terrified and flipped out. Having him crated and near the dog that he was terrified of kept him in that amped up state. He thought he was fighting for his life. I guess he was. 

I'm terribly sorry for all involved and I hope Seamus is in a better place. I'm not trying to point fingers or armchair quarter back, I'm just saying that all the evidence is that this was a behavioral problem. I have seen similar dogs and similar situations and made some of the same mistakes. Everybody has my sympathy here but especially Seamus.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

hannah, thank you for your clarity and your way with words and for sharing your knowledge gained from experience with all current and, more importantly (imho), future readers of this thread.


----------



## Clare (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Oh Diane I am so sorry to hear this - How are Freya and Thor doing?


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Diane, are you out there? We all want to hear from you.

Karen


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

I just thought I'd bring everyone up to date on conversations with the vets who not only cared for Thor and Seamus but had Seamus boarding with them for 10 days so were able to watch his behavior first hand.

I had to take Thor up today because his cheek was swelling (it looked like he had a big huge gumball in his mouth), and I was concerned that his puncture had become infected. I met with one of the two big bosses, Dr. B, who checked Thor, withdrew fluid (turned out to be just serum with no sign of pus or infection) and gave him a shot, after telling me that it will recede slowly but it will recede. Otherwise he's okay. 

Just a note, he's okay at home as well...eating well again and pretty much his old playful self once again. Freya still lifts her head and whimpers at odd noises but she too is beginning to calm down. I purchased two new balls today, and they have been romping happily, balls clenched in their mouths, all evening. The house is quiet and calm, though I find myself behaving like Freya...I keep listening for Seamus and still expecting to see him bouncing on all four, a stupid grin on his face when I come into view. I still find myself crying at odd moments.

But back to Dr. B. You may remember I mentioned the statue-like pose and the frozen stare just prior to his sudden move against Freya. I had seen this before and every time it preceded an aggressive move of some type...a snarl, a growl, a barking tirade or a lunge. Dr. B, during the time he spent at their boarding kennel, noted the same thing. It is her opinion that that frozen, glassy-eyed stare and posture is indicative to her from her experience that he was experiencing a seizure of some kind, and that those seizures triggered some terrifying memory which obstructed his ability to see his surroundings clearly...and thus simultaneously triggering his fear aggression. He was in a '*red zone*'...he <u>didn't see</u> Freya, didn't <u>care about</u> her food, all he saw was one of his 'demons'. Terrified?? Oh yes, he certainly was....and nothing could reach him to ease that terror. That's what hurts the most...that I could not find the note that would calm him, that would give him the feeling of safety he so desperately needed.

The fact that he didn't come out of it last Monday as he always had before however was also scary to me and to the vet who was in attendance. I used the phrase, "something snapped in his brain" (or something like that) and Dr. B. agreed, at least as a way of describing his reaction. She suggested that if he's been suffering seizures for a long period of time, this might have been the last and worst one that he just couldn't shake, one where he simply couldn't come out of that '*red zone*'. Although I have been feeling overwhelming moments of failure and guilt for a week now over my decision, Dr. B. said it was the best choice. His behavior was unpredictable at the best of times, but rarely directed at humans. The fact that he had become as violent towards me and the vet tells her that he was no longer safe to live with. Even if he had come out of it, he was no longer dependable, even with people.

Unfortunately, there is no treatment nor cure for seizures. They could have tried phenobarbital or some other medication but there would have been no guarantee that anything would have stopped him slipping into that '*red zone*'. A car door slamming, voices of people walking by outside, a cat meowing somewhere could have triggered the same reaction. 

At least now, he is at peace...no seizures, no demons. Dr. B. said that when we go to heaven, we will find a great dog park full of all our former animal buddies, all of them with butterflies on their noses, balls in their mouths and squeaky toys enough to share...no pain, no fear, no aggression and plenty of wonderful food, warm beds and lots and lots of love. Personally, I'm so looking forward to that day so I can apologize to Channy for leaving him...and so I can see Seamus as he was truly meant to be.


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Hi Diane, I am so very sorry for your loss. I know your heart is broken but just know that I for one admire your strength with Seamus. I dont think you failed him, Someone may have failed him, but it was long before you came along and at least he had more happiness with you than he had had in probably his entire life. You gave him your best, no one could ask for more.


----------



## rowansd (Jun 19, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*



> Originally Posted By: ShellyGI have not posted but have been following the story of Seamus from the beginning. Please know that you did more than many others would or could have done. Seamus was well loved at the end of his life. Don't beat yourself up and know that he is running free now.
> God Bless


That says it better than I can. I have been reading this thread from the beginning, but have not been on for a while. To read about your apparent truimphs ending so tragically is heartbreaking. You did all you could for Seamus and he did know love and kindness and the joy of toys before the end, you gave him that. He is at peace now. I will be in the outer banks in May and just want to meet you to give you a big (((((((hug))))))), I have learned so much.
Thank you


----------



## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Ahhh another Canadian coming to the Outer Banks to try and annex us to Canada. *rotfl* You will have to fight Virginia and Maryland for that privilege during the merry month of May.

But please, do email me of your plans... [email protected] ...what town you're staying in and the dates you'll be here. I'd love to meet a fellow GSD lover. I'll even bring Thor and Freya to meet you.


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Hope all is well your end. Does it get busy in the summer?
Has George and Thor had any interactions?


----------



## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Thank you for a remarkably brave and honest series of posts. I've learned a lot reading through all of this. 

The toughest lesson to learn about love is that sometimes you do the best you can and it isn't enough. 

I'm glad you had a sympathetic and sensible vet. I hope that 2008 is a calmer, happier, less interesting year for you and the dogs.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Chillicothe John/Seamus*

Blast from the past, how did you find this post? This was quite a story, Diane needs to write a book!


----------

