# Premium Dog Foods From a Vet's perspective



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

As you guys know, I am currently volunteering at a vet clinic. In his free time, I had a little chat about premium dog food with the vet. This vet has been in the profession for 20 years.

We talked about raw diets and premium dog foods such as Blue, Orijen, and etc. First, the raw diet.

A summary of what he believes from experience is raw diet isn't better than dry dog food. He says there's not enough studies done to say "Raw is better for your dog than dog food." He also says raw diet is more risky, with there not only being a risk for your dog but for you as well. 

A summary of what he believes about premium dog foods is dog food is dog food. You can feed Purina or Orijen, but your dog is still going to have dental problems. Also, dogs can also benefit from Purina, regardless of what others say.

Ever since I started going to dog forums, I've been preached to that premium dog foods or raw is the way to go. But those people who preached that to me are not vets and vets are qualified in this area, especially nutrition vets. 

What do you guys think? Let us discuss.


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## beaderdog (Dec 23, 2010)

I haven't discussed raw with the vets at my vet practice, but at least 2 of the doctors would strongly disagree with the idea that dog food is dog food. One of the very first things I was told when I brought my oldest dog, Penny, in for her first visit (she was a 5-yr-old failed hunting dog when I rescued her) was that her teeth were in bad shape due to cheap food & they recommended that I switch her to a premium food (which they don't sell BTW, so it wasn't a money-maker for them). They were right - her teeth improved amazingly & so did the quality of her coat. I'd have switched her anyway, since I've always been very careful about what I feed my pets, but it was certainly visible confirmation of the difference between cheap crap & good food. Also, one of the first questions they ask when doing annual check-ups is what food you're giving your pets.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSD Fan said:


> . But those people who preached that to me are not vets and vets are qualified in this area, especially nutrition vets.
> 
> What do you guys think? Let us discuss.


What is a nutrition vet. Is he board certified in animal nutrition.

What makes a vet anymore qualified than anyone else? I have a BS degree in biochemistry, have taken feeds and feeding at university, and have a Masters in chemistry. When I worked at the vet school I sat in on some courses and they fly through them as they learn about all species.

Having a letter behind your name and even experience as a general purpose vet does not really make you an expert. I have spoken many times to vets where I took in recent veterinary research studies (from journals THEY would respect) that the had not a clue about.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> What is a nutrition vet. Is he board certified in animal nutrition.
> 
> What makes a vet anymore qualified than anyone else? I have a BS degree in biochemistry, have taken feeds and feeding at university, and have a Masters in chemistry. When I worked at the vet school I sat in on some courses and they fly through them as they learn about all species.
> 
> Having a letter behind your name and even experience as a general purpose vet does not really make you an expert. I have spoken many times to vets where I took in recent veterinary research studies (from journals THEY would respect) that the had not a clue about.


It might be holstic vet, not nutrition. I forgot what it's called. 

You know what, I don't know. What I do know is vets know animal health.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> What is a nutrition vet. Is he board certified in animal nutrition.
> 
> What makes a vet anymore qualified than anyone else? I have a BS degree in biochemistry, have taken feeds and feeding at university, and have a Masters in chemistry. When I worked at the vet school I sat in on some courses and they fly through them as they learn about all species.
> 
> Having a letter behind your name and even experience as a general purpose vet does not really make you an expert. I have spoken many times to vets where I took in recent veterinary research studies (from journals THEY would respect) that the had not a clue about.


:thumbup: Couldn't have said it better myself!


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Not all vets preach "all dog food is dog food". 

My vet is always asking what I'm currently feeding, and specific formulas (right now feeding TOTW high prairie, but will be switching soon). When my dog was having digestive issues, she suggested putting him on Natural Balance LID until his digestive tract recovered.

I'm looking to switch to raw in the summer, I haven't asked her opinion but I don't think it will be as negative as the ones I read on here sometimes.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Knowing for fact how little instruction vets get in nutrition in school, a very short course that has to cram in multiple species, and in many cases is taught by representatives of the big dog food manufacturers (who also produce some of the most crappy foods... Purina, Iams and Hills), I don't put any stock in what a vet says about nutrition. They simply are not well educated in the topic, and much of what they are taught is clearly biased considering the sources from which it comes.

If, and it's a big IF, the vet has taken it upon himself to truly study and research canine nutrition, way beyond what is taught in vet school, and can prove it then his opinion has more value. But most don't. Frankly, unless it is a specific area of interest that they pursue in their own time, most wouldn't be able to if they wanted to.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

kinda different BUT when I took my cat in for a check up, he has hereditary dental disease, and has had no problems, and vet said its cause I feed premium food, also no crystals in urine, again told its due to what he is fed, and no I don't feed what the vet sells,

Also my dogs eat premium foods and its been commented you can tell the difference in the coat and over all wellness in muscle tone and the raw bones keep their teeth sparkling, and its been remarked about.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Vets go to school for a LONG time. I think it used to be six years AFTER a bachelor's degree. 

In those six years, they do not have to just learn what doctors learn -- everything about the workings of a human being. They have to learn about dogs, cats, reptiles, birds, fish, horses, cattle, anything and everything that people use to raise for livestock or keep as pets. 

They have to understand vaccinations, immune system, nutrition, orthopedics, digestive system, heath and lung issues, poisons, reproduction, surgery, injury, behavior, geriatrics, blood work, and parasites, as well as all the other things I am not thinking about. 

Jack of all trades, master of none. 

It means they are stuffed with a broad spectrum of information, and in all those years of vet school, they have something like one class in nutrition, designed by Science Diet or Purina, but they add to their knowledge base a lot of experience. I think they are better than the average Joe when they are determining what dogs should eat. 

Add to that, dogs vary more than any other species. Dogs come in 4 pound to 280 pound packages. There are hundreds of different breeds, crosses, and mixes. A vet NEEDS to know that ivermectrin can KILL collies, but do they really know what the effects of barley are on Bichon Fris, or Blueberries on a Puli? (Yeah I did just pull those out of my ...) But you get the picture. Most of them have not STUDIED what foods GSDs seem to have problems with and what they seem to do well on as a breed.

And then you can have dogs from various lines do better or worse on some ingredients. 

If you trust your breeder, I would call them first about what to feed. Have a conversation, listen to what they say, ask questions, and then make up your own mind about it. 

I agree that there are sites that have completely embraced many marketing lines, be it raw or grain free or breed specific, or various life stages. 

Your breeder or any reputable breeder in your area will have found a brand of food that their dogs seem to do well on. I would think that they are a better place to go for dog food advice than a vet. But a vet is better than your average internet surfer. 

I sometimes wonder how many of us were sucked in at one time or another because the food had a GSD on the label.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

The vet I had at Raven's yearly physical (older man and the only vet at the practice I had never seen) had never even heard of Taste of the Wild. Won't be taking his nutrition advice. Not because I think TOTW is an outstanding food but if he didn't know foods available at Petco, then clearly he isn't up to date on the latest information.

Another one of the vet's (who I love because he is great with my fosters) recommended Beneful as a great food when one of my fosters wouldn't eat. Again, good vet but won't be taking his nutrition advice.

I even tried a holistic vet when I first got Kaiser since they advocated limited vaccines, RAW feeding and grain free foods. They told me Kaiser should be 75lbs. NO way he should be 75lbs. He's a little chunky when gets over 65lbs.

Point is, you're the one that knows your animal best. So educate yourself with the latest nutrition information, take other's advice into consideration and make the best decision you can for your pet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dogs have never read any studies , yet they will tell you what works and what does not. The bodies respond . The vast majority of dogs do very well on raw diet . It is up to the owner to do a good job and understand the needs. Sometimes the body needs a bit of preparation by installing good intestional gut flora , particularly after multiple courses of anti biotics or long term use of enzyme robbing "dead" kibble. One error is feeding too much meat , too much phosphorous without calcium or mineral -- the people that feed chunks of meat or hamburg ground meat without any boney material.
At our local , well respected veterinary college , Guelph University , million dollars plus was donated by a major commercial dog food company. Now how is it possible that those vet students coming out of that institute receive an unbiased education on the nutritional needs of dogs when there is a vested interested to push the patron company.

Cats require "premium" because the cheaper brands have too much filler and ash content . 

Dogs can eat kibble . What does premium mean - premium price ? brand name recognition ? veterinary endorsement , celebrity endorsement?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

back in the early 80's when one of my dogs achieved Obedience Grand Victrix , I was approached by a dog food company to have a picture of my dog on the bag of every food -- as flattering as it was I declined -- I did not , would not use the food so I certainly would not promote it .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Selzer...ME! ME! ME! ( holding hand up)....
When I was a child......my grandmother fed "Strong Heart Canned Dog Food" to our GSD, because it was "made" for the GSD.....don't you know! *It had a GSD on the front of the can*.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

GSD Fan:

I respect vets for their training, but when I read "dog food is dog food" in your post, red flags shot up. Did he not live on this planet at the time when the Chinese dog food/cat food story broke the news? That is when very reputable news agencies began doing investigations into different pet food factories and uncovering some pretty ugly facts about how pet food was being made. 

People would not have even known that pet foods were importing ingredients from China at the time if dogs and cats had not started to die.

Some vets do not do much research about pet nutrition beyong what they were taught in vet school, and this gives them a handicap in understanding the dangers which some foods can pose to our dogs. Right now, I'm dealing with a neighbor whose GSD had all the symptoms of degenerative myelopathy, and all she did was treat it as arthritis, because that's what her vet kept saying it was. She finally took the dog to another vet and tests were run which showed DM.

Vets, like human doctors, can be woefully ignorant of the issues of nutrition.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

As far as premium vs. storebrand type:

I've seen two choclate labs. One ate Origen, one ate Pedigree.

The first had the most beautiful coat soft. The second looked like those buffulo you see on the great plains...kinda two toned and coarse.
Confirmation wise, both dogs looked exactly the same...could have come from the same breeder. They both were inside dogs, neither slept outside.

I'm not an expert in nutrition but it was definitely not a "dog food is dog food" experience to me. 

That's not even going into the waste or stool texture.
I've learned living in a small place that whatever I put into the dog, I've got to clean up two times a day...and solid and less is much better.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

GSD Fan said:


> As you guys know, I am currently volunteering at a vet clinic. In his free time, I had a little chat about premium dog food with the vet. This vet has been in the profession for 20 years.
> 
> We talked about raw diets and premium dog foods such as Blue, Orijen, and etc. First, the raw diet.
> 
> ...


This is easy to answer. It is true that Vets do not receive much training on nutrition, they will tell you that. This is only of importance with newly minted Vets. Others, like with 25-30 years experience, find that price and results are not correlated at all. They see the same problems no matter what the food. That is why they often don't object when you are feeding a mid-grade type of food. They don't see any evidence there is a health or longevity benefit to feeding Orijen or Canine Caviar Venison & Split Pea.

Vet's see more trouble with diet when ordinary people start playing nutritionist.

Most of the problems Vet's see are issues with certain breeds (you all know that is true), obesity which is more related to the owner's lifestyle than the diet and early neutering.

The bottom line is that for 99% of the dog's out there, there is no measurable benefit to an expensive food.

That is why Vet's don't care so much about the price-point of foods. They know it is mostly a marketing issue and not a nutritional one.

Even if a Vet does not sell Purina or Iams/Euk, there is better than a 50% chance those are used on his or her dogs. Pro Plan in particular.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I do agree with your vet that in order to feed RAW you do need to educate yourself on the proper balance of organ meats and muscle meats (and all the other aspects of it, I don't know enough about it to describe them). It's not a matter of stocking up on a bunch of chicken breast and cheap steaks and thinking your dog is going to flourish on that diet. But there are enough places to find out that information that if a person decides to feed RAW, there is no reason why they can't do it right.

And it's kind of a stretch to suggest that feeding RAW is a potential danger to you the owner. Sure you are handling raw meat, but it's not rocket science to wash everything properly afterwards. I have never in all my life gotten sick from handling raw meat.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

That is why Vet's don't care so much about the price-point of foods. They know it is mostly a marketing issue and not a nutritional one.

Even if a Vet does not sell Purina or Iams/Euk, there is better than a 50% chance those are used on his or her dogs. Pro Plan in particular.[/QUOTE]

xxxx
Yet they aggressively market hyper expensive food $90 per bag , kibble , full of fillers , a marketing issue , not a nutritional one.
The companies you listed contribute funds and scholarships so loyalty bought.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I manage to handle raw meat all the time. I actually buy it raw to cook it for myself!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

It's not just the name of a dogfood. It's what the results are.
It's also if Purina or Proctor and Gamble (which now own Nutura Products) get so much into showing a profit that processing ingredients in China is more cost effective...I don't want it. 
I'll pay more and be comfortable with the food snob label.

Heck, China can't even keep radiator fluid out of their own human baby formulas.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I have one comment (ok, several I'm sure by the time I'm done) about the "lack of studies." Let's be frank--studying dog food independently isn't exactly big bucks. The majority of studies done on the sujbect (well, I don't know if majority, but a large chunk) are funded by "big name" dog food companies. Of COURSE Science Diet is going to be the best to feed when it's a study by Hills! Considering there is no brand behind RAW (unless you're buying from one of the smaller companies that do pre-made)...so who would pay for it? It's interesting, however, that vets feel studies need to be done. As if we need studies to show that less preservatives and unprocessed foods are better. Canines and humans are not the same, but few humans survive well off of prepackaged gunk. Why would it be any different for dogs? (NOTE: I DON'T FEED RAW)

Funny thing is...not all vets subscribe to that BS. There are some that are knowledgable. My vet sells a line-up of premium food and pre-made RAW. They will also recommend a lowly food like Eukanuba or give their clients prescription Science Diet if needed.

I, for one, don't buy the line about this lack of knowledge applying only to "newly minted" vets. Experience hardly equals knowing what the heck you're talking about. One only needs to check out all those EPI threads--you know, the ones that have dogs withering away to nothing, whose owners' take them to 3 or 4 vets with years and years experience, and not one of them suggests that EPI might be the cause. One day here, and most of us can see and EPI dog a mile away. I've seen so so many threads where the people come back and say YOU WERE RIGHT. Just one example.

Vet's are too generalized. When you have breed specific issues or want the nuances of a particular subject, few know the whole gauntlet of information out there--or even remotely close to it. I personally think that small animal vets could use a lot more specialization. I would never have taken my horse to a vet that treated 5 or 6 different species of animals (or even 2)...think it's a shame that it's hard to find that option with dogs.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

The "dangers" crack me up. Wonder if all vets are vegetarians? Wonder if they eat sushi--lol wouldn't that be a hoot if you saw your vet out at a Japanese restaurant:

"You're going to die from the dangers!!! Don't you know how hazardous that is to your health?!"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some people have more problem with food poisoning than others. I have been in the hospital twice with food poisoning, not fun, but not the end of the world. 

Unless vets think that everyone buys food pre-cooked nowadays, that really should not be an issue. You can get the same issues cooking for people that you do preparing food for dogs. 

About the China thing. I saw a lot of those dog food thing, stuff about the four d's dead, dying, diseased, decaying, long before the china stuff came out. And shortly after I switched from Diamond to Nutro, Diamond lost a bunch of dogs to aflotoxin. That was before the Chinese issue. I think it may have killed more reported dogs too. 

But I have to agree that if you have to reach certain levels of stuff in your food, it would be hard to get that if you are putting in road kill alligators skunks this week, and zoo animals next week. 

I also have to admit that my first bitch who I started out on Dads, before switching to Diamond, Nutro, Canidae, Solid Gold, Wellness, Raw Instinct, Chicken Soup, Taste of the Wild, and Kumpi -- I must say that that bitch who spent her first couple of years on Dads had an iron stomach and rarely had even an instant of digestive trouble. She was affected by the Chinese gluten stuff and was pregnant at the time. But through all of the changes, she had good stool and ate well. 

I think that early on her stomach must have been work-hardened.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

risk to self ? handling food. Is no one cooking from scratch any more? I will have to ask my chef friend who is in charge of a 5 star hotel's restaurant if he feels frightened by all the meat in the meat locker ? Or the butcher ? 

I have heard this argument so many times like you are going to be ground zero for some infectious outbreak ---- meanwhile test results show high levels of salmonella in kibble .

Here is something from the Toronto Star April 22 "project biologists at North Carolina State University, who identify themselves on their web site with a Petri-dish view of what's in their own navels, are now studying "little snippets of DNA" to break the bacteria down to their own most identifiable level." "There is a hugely important end point" to the projcet Hulcr said. "We want to know how many kinds of bacteria live on us, permaenent residents and non-residents. A lot of the bacteria people connect with disease, that people call germs, are just things that are living on us. "It is when there is a problem with the immune system that they become pathogenic"
Which is why none of the project scientists use antibacterial soap or hand sanitizers.
"Maybe projects like this will convince people that there is so much life on their own skin that they had no idea about. With insane cleanliness, we're just making more resistant bacteria".

Just wash your hands with plain old soap and water, wash your dishes with dish wash and hot water, clean your counter with vinegar, a natural cleanser with tea tree oil , lavender , orange peel -- lots of products available.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

OMG...anyone that works in the "child care field" or "medical/dental" field.....let's talk BACTERIA! eeeek!
If you knew what "we" are subjected to on a daily basis....you would lose your lunch.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And if we live in a sterile environment, our kids get asthma


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't care what you feed your dog. But real food beats processed. i'm sorry. Sure a human could live off cereal for their entire life, and it's not even a question in my mind that they would be much better off eating real food.

Go to any nutritionist, ask them, cereal, or a well balanced diet of real food, see what they say is better.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> OMG...anyone that works in the "child care field" or "medical/dental" field.....let's talk BACTERIA! eeeek!
> If you knew what "we" are subjected to on a daily basis....you would lose your lunch.


Bacteria is not the problem. Anyone with half a brain knows how to wash a cutting board, I think.

The problem are obstructions from feeding too much bone and no fiber, punctures from feeding hollow weight bearing bones (yes it does happen) and many skin issues from idiots using to many oil supplements. In many breeds, too much O3 cause flaking and oily scaling. Broken teeth, etc, are other problems.

You all see the posts on this forum from inexperienced people. 75% of the US population can't find themselves on a map. This true. Do you really expect many people to feed raw correctly?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Too much OZONE? Ok now where the heck is that coming from?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm no expert on dog food. I think there is a lot more hype on some of the expensive brands then there needs to be. I truly can't say that it's only the food that makes my dogs look good, remain healthy and have energy to burn. I don't even remember what the ingrediants are in the food I feed, I do however pay attention to what is not. 

However, if you want to know if what I feed my dogs is working for them you are more than welcomed to come look at their poop. They have very little waste. 99.9% of the time its solid. Always the same color. Constant. 

I feed raw in the mornings and kibble (Diamond) in the evenings. It works for my dogs. And it makes poop patrol a very easy task.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I have a question...?
Has anyone researched what "food or diet" do the dogs in the Military eat ?
I mean...here are dog's being worked daily under stressful & physical conditions.
What are their diets consisting of ? What about Military dogs from other countries....? any ideas?

The reason I ask is.....these dogs don't have "sick days off"...they cannot have the digestive issues that many of companion dogs have...and STILL remain in active duty.
Loose crap, and constant skin infections....would hinder them useless.
What do they feed?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I'm no expert on dog food. I think there is a lot more hype on some of the expensive brands then there needs to be. I truly can't say that it's only the food that makes my dogs look good, remain healthy and have energy to burn. I don't even remember what the ingrediants are in the food I feed, I do however pay attention to what is not.
> 
> However, if you want to know if what I feed my dogs is working for them you are more than welcomed to come look at their poop. They have very little waste. 99.9% of the time its solid. Always the same color. Constant.
> 
> I feed raw in the mornings and kibble (Diamond) in the evenings. It works for my dogs. And it makes poop patrol a very easy task.


 
Most people become romanticized by certain companies and believe they have higher levels of expertise than others. It simply is not true. In fact most smaller companies don't even have a nutritionist or vet on staff. Also, most companies don't have the resources to actually do feeding trials, and that is important.

There is so much bias against the bigger companies to the point "they have to prove that what they use is safe"

Why don't people ask Orijen to prove all the junk it uses is safe? Berries, herbs that I know are toxic at some level.

All this is called "cognitive dissonance". When someone spends $75 -$90 for a bag of food they are unable to be critical of the decision.

Plain and simple.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am still having some dissonance about the source of ozone in raw food or expensive kibble

Your cognitive dissonance theory is whacko. Intellegent educated people can have different opinons than your own.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I am still having some dissonance about the source of ozone in raw food or expensive kibble
> 
> Your cognitive dissonance theory is whacko. Intellegent educated people can have different opinons than your own.


You just proved my point. It is not a theory it is a proven condition with people.

It is also proven that people make up many of the ailments they report to friends and Vet's. Any Vet will tell you that.

If I told you that the main source of protein in almost every Canadian food comes from a plant in Arkansas where Purina & Pro Pac buys its protein from, you would not believe me if you just spent $75 for a 28lb bag, when 44lbs of Pro Pac is $25.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> If I told you that the main source of protein in almost every Canadian food comes from a plant in Arkansas where Purina & Pro Pac buys its protein from, you would not believe me if you just spent $75 for a 28lb bag, when 44lbs of Pro Pac is $25.


Yes, I would if you could provide some credible proof which I suspect you won't. And the source of the protein is not what makes one food better than the other no matter the price.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Yes, I would if you could provide some credible proof which I suspect you won't. And the source of the protein is not what makes one food better than the other no matter the price.


 
See you are proving my point too. You came up with a rationalization on the source of protein but you know darn well the marketing programs of these companies are centered on "clean Canadian ingredients from regional farmers". LOL. Yet another person finds a rationalization to support a decision.

The proof is on this forum in the form of letter from one of the companies stating this. One company used to say all its salmon was caught wild until it was reprimanded from saying this because it is impossible since the wild salmon season is only a few months.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

sable123 said:


> You just proved my point. It is not a theory it is a proven condition with people.
> 
> It is also proven that people make up many of the ailments they report to friends and Vet's. Any Vet will tell you that.
> 
> If I told you that the main source of protein in almost every Canadian food comes from a plant in Arkansas where Purina & Pro Pac buys its protein from, you would not believe me if you just spent $75 for a 28lb bag, when 44lbs of Pro Pac is $25.


Funny. Too funny. Still no answer on the ozone (O3) statment. 

I did not ask about any canadian food. I asked why you cannot accept that other educated people can have different opinions than you. I don't even FEED Orijen. LOL.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> I have a question...?
> Has anyone researched what "food or diet" do the dogs in the Military eat ?
> I mean...here are dog's being worked daily under stressful & physical conditions.
> What are their diets consisting of ? What about Military dogs from other countries....? any ideas?
> ...


 
More than likely they eat Pro Plan or Eukanabu. Some of the sled dog companies have modified the electrolyte supplements to a biscuit form.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Pssst. Nancy...I think he meant O3 = Omega 3. But apparently doesn't really know that that you've asked several times about ozone in food and he's going on his merry way?

I am going so OT with this right now. My brother is an atmospheric chemist. My father is an engineer/scientist. I'm a scientist. My sister in law avoided science class like the plauge. About a year ago--no idea how the subject even came up--my sister in law starts talking about how her mom used to take her to this lady for "ozone treatments" when she was a kid (can't remember what these treatments were supposed to do). The whole table goes quiet....is she kidding? Is this an inside joke between her and my brother? My brother just goes "WHAT?!?!".....quite an interesting conversation ensued (what are the chances an atmospheric chemist marries this person?! lol).

Needless to say, anytime they have an argument about whose family is more pushy, annoying, or getting on someone's nerves....my brother always wins:

"At least my mother didn't take me into ozone chambers as a child." :rofl:

Sorry, this might be a story only a science person can get a chuckle from.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

My vet said the same thing to me as the op's vet. I didn't put much stock into this advice when I can see on my own the difference. With my last GSD, I didn't know about premium foods, if any existed. I got him in 1989 and had him until 2000. He was very healthy, had no issues, but his coat was duller and not as nice as Wolfie's is. He shed so much more. His poops were huge. I look at pictures of him and I want to cry, thinking that if I just had him on the food that I feed Wolfie, then maybe he would have lived longer. Another concern I have is where the food is made. Big corporations outsource, mostly to China. I have a friend who's GSD died from Melamine poisoning that he got from feeding Eukanuba. I only feed Wolfie food made in the USA


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

I just know that MDs, with the years and years of education they have, don't like to give advice outside of what they REALLY know. If one of my patients is having problems with nutrition, or is not taking in enough nutrition at all, guess what these medical doctors do......they call in a consult for a nutrionist!! 

They are aware that they can't know everything, so they find someone who has taken the years of classes specific to nutrition. And even after that, I see first hand every day how doctors can screw up diagnoses and treatment. Don't get me wrong, I believe they do their very best to help people. But they are just that....people. Who can makes mistakes or bad judgements. 

So in answer to your question, I research on my own the medical and nutrition advice my doctors give ME, and then make my own decisions. So I'm not going to just blindly follow the advice of a vet in regards to my dogs health either. 



sable123 said:


> Vet's see more trouble with diet when ordinary people start playing nutritionist.


I'm "ordinary people". I play nutritionist every day for myself in deciding what I should and shouln't eat, what is healthy for me....I'm not a doctor. So I think I can do it for my dog as well. And if I start to see signs that I'm not doing it correctly, I'll find someone who can.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> Pssst. Nancy...I think he meant O3 = Omega 3. But apparently doesn't really know that that you've asked several times about ozone in food and he's going on his merry way?
> 
> I am going so OT with this right now. My brother is an atmospheric chemist. My father is an engineer/scientist. I'm a scientist. My sister in law avoided science class like the plauge. About a year ago--no idea how the subject even came up--my sister in law starts talking about how her mom used to take her to this lady for "ozone treatments" when she was a kid (can't remember what these treatments were supposed to do). The whole table goes quiet....is she kidding? Is this an inside joke between her and my brother? My brother just goes "WHAT?!?!".....quite an interesting conversation ensued (what are the chances an atmospheric chemist marries this person?! lol).
> 
> ...


Ohhhhh sorry, I am a chemist. I call omega 3s just that. Silly me. 

Ah well my undergratuate research actually was in lipid metabolism ... years ago though.....but good enough that even in the 1970s we quit eating as many foods as we could with trans fats in them because the verdict was known then. And they were starting discussions then on omega 6 and omega 3 fats.  

Speaking of science families. When my older child was 5 we went to a restaurant and she asked for PROTONS for her salad (I taught night school chemistry and they sat in on my class sometimes when hubby was late from work)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Lol that's what I thought at first too! I'm making an assumption that's what he means? Bit you asked about 4 times about it so I don't think he even knows?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Yet another person finds a rationalization to support a decision.


:rofl: What decision am I supporting again? I must have forgotten what I wrote.

Well, I have to say, your "it's already posted somewhere" on this forum that has thousands and thousands of posts a day excuse is much better than your "it's on my desk at home" excuse.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

. In many breeds, too much O3 cause flaking and oily scaling. 


---- or do you mean too much omega 6 (grains, grain fed meat) which is PRO inflammatory , whereas omega 3 is anti inflammatory . 


You all see the posts on this forum from inexperienced people. 75% of the US population can't find themselves on a map. 


Is that why malls have an information board with * YOU ARE HERE * ?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Well, I have to say, your "it's already posted somewhere" on this forum that has thousands and thousands of posts a day excuse is much better than your "it's on my desk at home" excuse.


:rofl:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> I have a question...?
> Has anyone researched what "food or diet" do the dogs in the Military eat ?


What DOGS to the military use. THey cull a LOT and they pretty much use genetically healthy stock to start with. I think my WL dog could pretty much eat anything and have no problems and work fine. But I am looking for health and longevity. 

What is the average SERVICE life of a military working dog?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I am bowing out and getting back to work. If I loose my job I can't afford my $400 a bag dog food.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

My dogs eat anything with no digestive issues either (knock on wood).....but I'm also not a part of the "feeding feud" that continues to go on and on....pro this or con that.....my consensus is..."feed what your dogs do well on, and what you want to feed period".
My question is a legitimate one.....I've wondered and never asked.
As for healthy stock....I would hope that there are more "healthy stock" bred dogs, besides the dogs in the Military.....as for their length of duty....I don't know.
Polices K9s are generally used until their senior years, unless physically unable...then they are retired.

_So again......anyone know what foods or diets the Military dogs are fed?_


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sable123 said:


> All this is called "cognitive dissonance". When someone spends $75 -$90 for a bag of food they are unable to be critical of the decision.
> 
> Plain and simple.


I am well aware of cognitive dissonance, but is that really the only reason you can think of that people might not be critical of the food they're using? Such as, oh I don't know - they've tried many other foods over the years and their dogs are doing better on this one than they ever have before? I'd personally love to find a cheaper food that my dogs do as well on as they do on Orijen, how could anyone not want to spend less on dog food as long as their dogs' health and nutrition level are not compromised by that decision? 

And believe me, if my dogs were NOT doing better on Orijen I'd switch them off it in a heartbeat and I'm sure most people would do the same. The idea of expensive food as merely a status symbol is just silly. I don't go around bragging about what my dogs eat and how expensive it is, and I've never seen anyone else do that either. Groan about the price, yes, but not brag about it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdraven said:


> Well, I have to say, your "it's already posted somewhere" on this forum that has thousands and thousands of posts a day excuse is much better than your "it's on my desk at home" excuse.


My dog ate my homework? 

Maybe sable shouldn't keep starting new threads about food and abandoning the old ones if s/he wants us to be able to keep track of everything s/he's posted on the subject so far.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> . In many breeds, too much O3 cause flaking and oily scaling.
> 
> 
> ---- or do you mean too much omega 6 (grains, grain fed meat) which is PRO inflammatory , whereas omega 3 is anti inflammatory .
> ...


 
Aren't you the person that sells useless supplements?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I am well aware of cognitive dissonance, but is that really the only reason you can think of that people might not be critical of the food they're using? Such as, oh I don't know - they've tried many other foods over the years and their dogs are doing better on this one than they ever have before? I'd personally love to find a cheaper food that my dogs do as well on as they do on Orijen, how could anyone not want to spend less on dog food as long as their dogs' health and nutrition level are not compromised by that decision?
> 
> And believe me, if my dogs were NOT doing better on Orijen I'd switch them off it in a heartbeat and I'm sure most people would do the same. The idea of expensive food as merely a status symbol is just silly. I don't go around bragging about what my dogs eat and how expensive it is, and I've never seen anyone else do that either. Groan about the price, yes, but not brag about it.


 
There are any number of them that cost half as much but you would not be in any position to judge because of the inherent bias you have. 

You buy Orijen for two reasons 1) It is expensive and the perception is that it is better and 2) You are from California, where eltisim is part of the culture.


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

My vet, like most, has Science Diet as the "official" endorsed food.... but he doesn't use it, in fact, he buys pet food from the same feed store I do. He endorse science diet A) they pay good kickbacks, and B) it's better for a dog than KibbleX at the gas station. I am currently paying $15 for my dog's 35lb bag of food... it's a new line being trialed by Natura (lamb & rice was good, but switched now to chicken/turkey/sweetpotato and eliminated gas issues!!!!). When the line is "finalized" for retail, it'll be $35 a bag, so not much more than the average kibble, but 10X better ingredients! 

My vet even has asked me to keep him posted on how the new food is working for Jake, as a recommendation for his other patients who have dietary issues.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Sorry, this might be a story only a science person can get a chuckle from.


I loved it!! Some of those "new age" treatments are ridiculous. I recently read about people INJECTING hydrogen peroxide. I can't remember why, what they thought it cured. But its killed a good bit of people and some are still doing it... 

I used to live in Lafayette, with Purdue University which is one of the top vet schools. Purdue teaches ONE semester of nutrition to vet students. I had many friends in the vet school. On top of that, Science Diet sponsors the class. They also offer food to all of the vet students at 25 cents a lb. 

I've seen the differences first hand when switching to better quality foods. Over, and over, and over again as I've fostered quite a few animals. I had a cat that almost died due to feeding Iams. The vet could not figure out what was wrong, and we went around in circles with tests and trying this prescription or that prescription. I would cry at home positive I was going to have to put her down. Then I found out about nutrition... I switched foods, and switched vets. She did a complete turn around and became healthier than she'd ever been in her life. Another cat of mine had a lot of allergies. I switched to her natures variety canned food in unusual proteins. She couldn't handle chicken, turkey, beef without breaking out in scabby hives. When I put her on raw, she could eat chicken, turkey, and beef... Also became even healthier and looked loads better.

Klamari, I've had a vastly different experience with Drs!! I have a rare genetic disorder. 9/10 Drs I run into know nothing about it, and act as if they know everything. Once my boyfriend got so angry at an ER Dr he told the guy "hey why don't you go google Ehlers Danlos Syndrome and then come back" When I find a Dr willing to admit they aren't familiar with it, I hold on to them. The ones who are willing to admit and then willing to learn more about it- they can't get rid of me  I was with my last Dr for nearly 10 years, at the end driving 2 hours to see her. Had to stop when she left the country to do missionary work.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

sable123 said:


> There are any number of them that cost half as much but you would not be in any position to judge because of the inherent bias you have.
> 
> You buy Orijen for two reasons 1) It is expensive and the perception is that it is better and 2) *You are from California, where eltisim is part of the* *culture*.


Hey! I thought that was Texas, where everyone has an oil rig in their back yard and we are all related to JR.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sable123 said:


> Aren't you the person that sells useless supplements?


 
NO you must have mistaken me for someone else.

I make and use , and only recently have made publicly available very helpful supplements. I am research oriented. I have a virtual "panel of scientific advisors" . I have two bedrooms (vacated by kids) that are floor to ceiling , wall to wall books , that I have read, am reading, have available for reference etc. I work with holistic vets, and have a great supporter in the form of a Master Herbalist who lectures and is a University professor who loves and uses my products . I have had a decade of feedback from all manner of breeds of dogs. The products are used by many rescue organizations and shelters . 

I have asked you many a time, as have other members for you to validate your pronouncements. 
If you want to be academic support your argument and then let others make a decision armed with intelligence.

So who were you thinking of?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

opcorn:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

jprice103 said:


> opcorn:


Can I have some? But, I only want it if it's the super expensive kind.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Can I have some? But, I only want it if it's the super expensive kind.


But of course...and that is the ONLY kind I buy! I pay extra for no corn fillers...oh wait....


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Are there "vet nutritionists"? :thinking: I don't expect my general vet to be an expert on nutrition. :shrug:
I do expect they will give the best advice they can on the matter, and hope they will look up what they don't know or refer my dog to someone that does if needed.
They should know things about foods relative to possible conditions they are presented with. For example, common sources of food allergies.

I don't expect them to know everything about every type of dog food on store shelves!

A vet that gives advice recommending against something like feeding a raw diet may have seen bad results of doing so in his office. They could very well feel obligated to pass on any possible risks they have seen.

I do not want to hear a vet going on and on about the food they happen to sell. Luckily my current vet hasn't tried that


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sable123 said:


> There are any number of them that cost half as much but you would not be in any position to judge because of the inherent bias you have.
> 
> You buy Orijen for two reasons 1) It is expensive and the perception is that it is better and 2) You are from California, where eltisim is part of the culture.


Wow. You don't even know me yet you make all these assumptions. Please don't hurt yourself jumping to conclusions. 

#1: I have no inherent bias regarding pet foods. I've had dogs since 1986, and have only fed Orijen for a couple of years. 

#2: I buy Orijen for ONE reason, which I have stated several times - my dogs do very well on it, better than anything else I have tried.

#3: Yes, I am from California but I am not an elitist, nor is anyone I choose to associate with. Elitism is not part of the culture that I was raised in, I'm from a lower middle class backround.

Looks like you've got a few biases though, don't you?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

jprice103 said:


> opcorn:


Or maybe we should have sushi instead? Careful, it's raw....



Sorry they aren't jello shots Selzer! It's about time for those or maybe JessieWessie needs to pull out her brownies?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Off of work to eat my salad of hormone free/antibiotic free chicken, organic romaine, heritage tomatoes, and other delightful treats along with homemade whole wheat croutons.

Ooooops - silly me, I should be going to Mickey' Ds. Its all the same!


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> Or maybe we should have sushi instead? Careful, it's raw....
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry they aren't jello shots Selzer! It's about time for those or maybe JessieWessie needs to pull out her brownies?


Did someone say jello shots!! Woo hoo...jello shots and sushi! I'm in!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Forget the sushi, pass the jello shots!

Jello shots and _special_ brownies! 

Party time, Look Rosa looks ready!


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

First 5 ingredients in Purina:
Whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), corn gluten meal, meat and bone meal 

First 5 ingredients in Orijen:
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal

Nuff said?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

selzer said:


> Forget the sushi, pass the jello shots!
> 
> Jello shots and _special_ brownies!
> 
> Party time, Look Rosa looks ready!


Rosa is always ready to party, even though she eats high priced grain free kibble.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my vet is all for whatever works, she actually doesn't promote sd but does promote cal natural which they sell


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> You buy Orijen for two reasons 1) It is expensive and the perception is that it is better and 2) You are from California, where eltisim is part of the culture.


I'm with Cassidy's Mom; at first I read that and thought "Wow"
But, then I thought about it...even went to dictionary.com.

...I guess I am an elitist. My great great grandfather stumbled drunk off the boat from Ireland and ended up on the voter rolls in 1876 in San Francisco. My grandmother was born in San Francisco in 1906. 

Sorry you think that best of the best is a bad thing. Enjoy the life of outstanding mediocracy. 

I'll stand by the statement of: Yep, I'm a food snob. I actually can't get Origens easily; But could if I had to. I would eat $1.00 top ramen as long as my dog did well on more expensive food that didn't process out of country (China) and use corn. No problem.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

CarrieJ said:


> I'm with Cassidy's Mom; at first I read that and thought "Wow"
> But, then I thought about it...even went to dictionary.com.
> 
> ...I guess I am an elitist. My great great grandfather stumbled drunk off the boat from Ireland and ended up on the voter rolls in 1876 in San Francisco. My grandmother was born in San Francisco in 1906.
> ...


 
Well you know what they say: Living well is the best revenge.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh, I'm dirt poor. My dogs and cats just eat well.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

CarrieJ said:


> Oh, I'm dirt poor. My dogs and cats just eat well.


Ditto.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

A vet spends months out of the 6 years of school on nutrition all of which is sponsored by Purina and Hills! So with that in mind what do you think the pet food companies are teaching them?

My vet is holistic and she will try her hardest to point people towards the premium brands or raw.

Look at it this way, you go to your regular Dr he tells you that your diabetic and sends you to a nutritionist for guidance on your diet. Ummm why did he just not tell you himself? Because he studied medicine not nutrition, Vets are no different most just act like they know it all.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I just went back and read most of the posts. Why Sable do you always have to trash people for their food/supplement choice? What degree do you carry please? 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but you really knock people sometimes.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

sable:

As another Californian posting here (although born in Chicago), I was waiting for some clarification about our "elitist" culture, as in it was a joke or you were just being exaggerrated. 

Since no clarification followed, I'm going to conclude you were making what you believe to be a serious statement. So I just want to remind you that California is the most populous state at 37 plus million, and the most diverse as well. I myself am Hispanic and don't know what elitist culture you're talking about, having grown up in a poor family. In fact, most Californians are struggling economically, with the entire middle of the state dealing with a rural economy and some of the highest unemployment and poverty rates in the country. 

About the only thing we brag about, rightfully so, is our great weather. But other than that, you should not paint us with such a broad brush if you want to be taken seriously. It shows more pettiness than "gravitas" in your assertions about why people defend premium dog foods.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

vat said:


> I just went back and read most of the posts. Why Sable do you always have to trash people for their food/supplement choice? What degree do you carry please?
> 
> Everyone is entitled to an opinion but you really knock people sometimes.


And, what do you feed your dog(s)?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

vat said:


> I just went back and read most of the posts. Why Sable do you always have to trash people for their food/supplement choice? What degree do you carry please?
> 
> Everyone is entitled to an opinion but you really knock people sometimes.


I have more experience with dogs and especially dog products than anyone on here. I do not like to see nice people with kids to feed, car payments and mortgages to make and vacations to save for get ripped off or bullied into products that are not safe or completely useless. I always make a point of recommending tried and true diets at three different price points because I don't know the person's financial situation.

Invariably, the response from some arm chair nutritional wannabe is "yuck it has corn that is crap corn causes allergies" or "Purina buys road kills and dead dogs and cats and makes into pet food". These same arm chair nutritional wannabes, that have no medical degrees and have never ever seen your dog, see fit to recommend you give your animal vitamin supplements that do absolutely no good. Spending your money and putting your dogs at risk, just like the people telling some stranger that knows nothing about canine diets to feed an 8 week old puppy an incomplete raw diet.

I can say with a long career spent in dogs, most of you are doing just what many companies want you to do, and that is spend twice as much money as you need to.

When I started fostering this GSD, I made contact with breeders in my area, vets and show judges. Virtually all use either Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Eagle or Canidae. Most people that do this for a living have seen it all and it find it laughable that someone would spend $2.5 -$3lb for dry food from a company with very little experience in the business.

So, yes am I prickly and sharp, but if you see the posts it is almost always in response to someone with no background putting pressure on another to spend money on some fad product or food. Of someone recommending Vitamin C for virtually any ailment people post about.

Trust me, some very unethical people are laughing all the way to the bank.

I can guaranty you, some of the finest minds in canine nutrition are using $1lb foods or cheaper.

Next time someone recommends a $30 bottle of fish oil or a $75 bag of chicken meal from Arkansas, ask them to buy it for you and see what the reaction is.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> The vet I had at Raven's yearly physical (older man and the only vet at the practice I had never seen) had never even heard of Taste of the Wild. Won't be taking his nutrition advice. Not because I think TOTW is an outstanding food but if he didn't know foods available at Petco, then clearly he isn't up to date on the latest information.
> 
> Another one of the vet's (who I love because he is great with my fosters) recommended Beneful as a great food when one of my fosters wouldn't eat. Again, good vet but won't be taking his nutrition advice.
> 
> ...


My son's dog lived 14 healthy years on Iams and Beneful, my last dog lived 13 healthy years on IAMs. Would they have been more healthy on a higher quality food? How healthy is healthy? Now that I am a GSD snob, my dog eats either Orijen or TOTW. She seems healthy. I have lived 67 years on whatever was put in front of me. I have run a half dozen marathons and dozens of 10Ks.
Maybe I should eat Orijen?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> The bottom line is that for 99% of the dog's out there, there is no measurable benefit to an expensive food.


It really aggravates me when people throw out random percentages to make their opinion seem like a fact.

*99%* of your posts are about how people are dumb and getting tricked into spending money on expensive foods when 30/20 kibbles are just as good because you know performance dogs.


Have you seen any of the before/after raw pictures and stories? Proof enough for me.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

CassandGunnar said:


> And, what do you feed your dog(s)?


I now feed raw but have feed everything from Science Diet to premium food. I have seen the difference in my dogs over the years. Is there a reason you ask?


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

sable123 said:


> I have more experience with dogs and especially dog products than anyone on here. I do not like to see nice people with kids to feed, car payments and mortgages to make and vacations to save for get ripped off or bullied into products that are not safe or completely useless. I always make a point of recommending tried and true diets at three different price points because I don't know the person's financial situation.
> 
> Invariably, the response from some arm chair nutritional wannabe is "yuck it has corn that is crap corn causes allergies" or "Purina buys road kills and dead dogs and cats and makes into pet food". These same arm chair nutritional wannabes, that have no medical degrees and have never ever seen your dog, see fit to recommend you give your animal vitamin supplements that do absolutely no good. Spending your money and putting your dogs at risk, just like the people telling some stranger that knows nothing about canine diets to feed an 8 week old puppy an incomplete raw diet.
> 
> ...


While I agree with most of what you say...I do have one quibble. I would argue that if you believe that you are what you eat (and human nutritionists would agree), then why is it not the same with dogs (or for that matter any other animal)? I think raw if it is done properly can be just as healthy although I don't do it because I don't have the time nor energy for it. But I do choose to feed a dry food with expensive ingredients (wellness LBP). You cant tell me that price makes no difference in the quality of the ingredients that are put into that food. 

But on another note im all with you in terms of the supplements thing. But its the same thing with humans. The vitamin companies are laughing all the way to the bank without empirical evidence to show they work. Eat healthy foods to begin with and you are much better off.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

sable123 said:


> I have more experience with dogs and especially dog products than anyone on here. I do not like to see nice people with kids to feed, car payments and mortgages to make and vacations to save for get ripped off or bullied into products that are not safe or completely useless. I always make a point of recommending tried and true diets at three different price points because I don't know the person's financial situation.
> 
> Invariably, the response from some arm chair nutritional wannabe is "yuck it has corn that is crap corn causes allergies" or "Purina buys road kills and dead dogs and cats and makes into pet food". These same arm chair nutritional wannabes, that have no medical degrees and have never ever seen your dog, see fit to recommend you give your animal vitamin supplements that do absolutely no good. Spending your money and putting your dogs at risk, just like the people telling some stranger that knows nothing about canine diets to feed an 8 week old puppy an incomplete raw diet.
> 
> ...


Well I can see where your coming from but I do not think people on here are being bullied. If we speak from our experience I see it as advice, take it or leave it. I had a dog that was always sick on Science Diet, does that mean all dogs will be? No. But I feel it my duty to share my experiences as I think many others do as well. It is up to the individual to take all the information and make a choice that suits them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes indeed JPF you are what you eat and long overlooked but an area of great interest to geneticists, (epigenetics, S N P ) is the effect over the long term how nutritition affects each generation going forward. So to expand the saying , it would be, you are what you eat AND you are what your mother ate . Pottenger was on to something !!
There is speculation that the tidal wave of very young animals, which by all rights should have no sensitivities yet but are bothered by allergic response, is a result of so many accumulative generations of kibble fed finally coming home to roost. 
I have people asking specifically if my pups are fed raw and if the parents are fed raw. To this question I can say my dogs have been raw for 6 or more generations -- and I don't have problems with digestion or hips . They do eat everything . 

There should be a look into how chemical pesticides, ivermectin etc have an affect on genetics . Is there not a warning that says do not use on pregnant or nursing animals? 

Sable 123 , I had a friend who owned two dogs of mine , who was responsible for running a lab which tested full life results of different brands of dog foods. The lab was just outside Cobourg Ontario. Nutrition has been a field of study for myself for a very long time.

If dog food kibbles are so fabulous why do you have ! New and Improved ! every year or two , why did they bow to public pressure to take out ethoxyquin ? why are they being clever to keep a market share when so many have abandoned kibble for raw -- all of a sudden you have added pre biotics , no grains, , why do you have a company or mega-corp to be more correct have 4 levels of dog kibble varieties . Is that ethical to say that "this" version of dog food is the very best , but we also manufacture stuff with corn and soy and rice hulls ... . 

When people feed raw they know what the dog is eating. I think that is an important point for many.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

vat said:


> I now feed raw but have feed everything from Science Diet to premium food. I have seen the difference in my dogs over the years. Is there a reason you ask?


 
I'm sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Sable. I guess I didn't make that clear. Sorry


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dog food is like a religion. 

People have to believe they are feeding their dogs well. 

When someone suggests that our food is no better than the crap they sell in the supermarket, it makes the defenses go up. No one likes to be duped. We TRUST our dog food company. They would not steer us wrong. Suggesting that we were sucked in is attacking our FAITH. So these topics always get heated. 

I really do not know, people think that their food is great, and they SEE it working. IS it working? Changes in coat and in health usually change slowly and subtly. It would be EASY to BELIEVE that it has made a difference without actually SEEING a difference, if you WANT it to be so. I really do not want to hear that people _know_ it has, if they BELIEVE than they will think they _know. _I _know _that when I went from Canidae to Kumpi, I went from lots of colitis to no colitis immediately. Do I _know_ that their skin and coats are better? No. I really cannot say that. In fact, they may do better on some other food. 

I think that there is some inconsistency or ingredient that my dogs do not do well on, and I do not know what that is. It could be barley or millet or peas or lamb or rice or something else. And maybe my current food's lack of that ingredient has made a difference in my dogs. Maybe the food being consistent from bag to bag, manufactered by crosswinds, instead of Diamond is why my dogs do better on it, I do not know. 

Some things I do know:

If I do not trust my dog food company, I will have to be ready to switch foods.

Finding another food that all my dogs do well on will be work.

If I find that my dog food is no better than cheaper foods, I will have to admit that I was suckered.

Again.

Dogs like meat yes. I offered Babsy the remains of my salisbury steak and macaroni and cheese, and she took a bite of one than the other. Then she went back to the steak. Then to the mac and cheese, back to the steak, and again to the mac and cheese. She finished the steak first. She also finished the mac and cheese. She was happy. I was happy. She wagged her tail. The grass grew. The sun came out, and dried up all the rain. ls she healthier? Probably not. Is she happier, oh yeah. 

And that is another thing I know. My dogs do extremely well (digestively) on people food. Nothing phases them. I can feed them raw, I can feed them leftovers (everything I cook has onions in it, so they get them too) potato soup, chicken paprikash, creamed chicken and rice, meatloaf, spinach chicken (that gives ME issues), I can even feed them fast food and prepared foods with all that salt, grease, and sugar -- never a gastro-intestinal hiccup. But if I add just a little Taste of the Wild on top of the regular food -- massive colitis attacks on several dogs. 

This is supposed to be awesome food. And my dogs are spewing it out of their systems, usually from both ends. WHY??? I took 1.5 bags and gave it to the dog shelter. (If that happened today, I would take it back to the store.)

So, when I say, finding another food that ALL my dogs do well on will be hard, I know that it will be. 

Maybe not all dogs do best on food that are so calorie-dense that you can feed so much less and get so much less poop. Maybe that is not the best answer for all dogs. I am not a nutritionist and I either have to become one, or trust a dog food company.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Reply to Sable123
Black = his statements
Red=My statements

I have more experience with dogs and especially dog products than anyone on here. 

_You do? Can you quantify that? What is your training and experience that puts you above other people on this forum with varying degrees, decades of GERMAN SHEPHERD experience etc? That statement right there blows your credibility out the water._

I do not like to see nice people with kids to feed, car payments and mortgages to make and vacations to save for get ripped off or bullied into products that are not safe or completely useless.

_The only bullying I have seen is you telling us all how stupid we are. My feeling is that you do not need to protect us from ourselves. Most people can take the facts and personal opinions of others and make up their own mind. _

_I get JUST as frustrated at BARFERS who tell me it is the *only* way to go. Basically the way I see this is all religions have some truth to them. Maybe one is the best. But it never works to shove it down peoples' throats._

_I have even said - had a friend - her dog thrived on Beneful. It worked for that dog. My own dogs - well I have liked the RESULTs I get on Natural Balance and TOTW. I have fed Eagle Pak before and, honestly, it did not work well for me. But it is my money in the end. I think a lot of GSDs do better grain free. Sorry. It has held for me._

I always make a point of recommending tried and true diets at three different price points because I don't know the person's financial situation.

Invariably, the response from some arm chair nutritional wannabe is "yuck it has corn that is crap corn causes allergies" or "Purina buys road kills and dead dogs and cats and makes into pet food". 

_You know, I am not seeing that. Granted, I see a lot of misinformaiton about corn specifically, and sometimes a lack of understanding that many allergies are to meat ingredients. So you work to correct the information, not shoot the messenger. _

_We also KNOW dogs have no nutritional requirement for carbohydrates though (even though we humans do). I am sorry, but I do NOT care to feed animal digest because it is an inferior quality product not fit for human consumption, nor do I care to feed the sweepings off a manufacturing floor or chicken beaks and intestines. I only buy named meat nitrate free hot dogs when I get the rare hankering for one, myself._

These same arm chair nutritional wannabes, that have no medical degrees and have never ever seen your dog, see fit to recommend you give your animal vitamin supplements that do absolutely no good. 

_And you do? We have asked repeatedly for YOUR credentials_

Spending your money and putting your dogs at risk, just like the people telling some stranger that knows nothing about canine diets to feed an 8 week old puppy an incomplete raw diet.

_Caveat Emptor. Let people do their own research - it is like the menadione thing. You make a broad pronouncement then cannot back it up. Tell us your qualifications. Lets lay them all out. Many of us have stated OUR qulaifications and they are impressive [the combined intellegence, experience and education here]._

I can say with a long career spent in dogs, most of you are doing just what many companies want you to do, and that is spend twice as much money as you need to.

When I started fostering this GSD, I made contact with breeders in my area, vets and show judges. Virtually all use either Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Eagle or Canidae. Most people that do this for a living have seen it all and it find it laughable that someone would spend $2.5 -$3lb for dry food from a company with very little experience in the business.

_You have a personal issue with Orijen. There are experienced breeders on This forum for many years and I see them feeding other foods than the ones you mention. Mainly raw, some with quality foods._

So, yes am I prickly and sharp, but if you see the posts it is almost always in response to someone with no background putting pressure on another to spend money on some fad product or food. Of someone recommending Vitamin C for virtually any ailment people post about.

_No it is not, You either start up these threads or jump in - at this point you did not jump in when someone was being bullied as you say. And concerning Pro Plan - lets talk now about ADVERTISING. Big time and I know some who use it but not many. Last time I looked it had mendadione and sorry if you think I am brainwashed but I care not to use it. {See thread on menadione, K3 with bypassed unanswered questions.....)_

Trust me, some very unethical people are laughing all the way to the bank.

I can guaranty you, some of the finest minds in canine nutrition are using $1lb foods or cheaper.

Next time someone recommends a $30 bottle of fish oil or a $75 bag of chicken meal from Arkansas, ask them to buy it for you and see what the reaction is.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

GSD Fan said:


> A summary of what he believes about premium dog foods is dog food is dog food. You can feed Purina or Orijen, but your dog is still going to have dental problems.


Your vet loses me right there, with the "dog food is dog food" comment. 

and dogs don't HAVE to have dental problems. My own dogs, raised on raw diets, have never needed any dental procedures. My dog Ianna (13 years old today) still has good teeth.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't trust anyone who can't spell guarantee.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I thought Missouri was the show me State?

Jocoyn , do you know what one of the big problems with corn is , not just that it is a cheap filler --- that is that corn is one of the heaviest crops that is GMO , genetically modified . Not only am I surrounded by sheep in my little bit of acreage, I am surrounded by test fields of GMO corn. 

U of T prof , Margaret Visser , lectures, is a radio personality and has written a great little book revealing the cost of our agricultural system , social and environmental and other tid bits of food culture Much Depends On Dinner: Amazon.ca: Margaret Visser: Books

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> Yes indeed JPF you are what you eat and long overlooked but an area of great interest to geneticists, (epigenetics, S N P ) is the effect over the long term how nutritition affects each generation going forward. So to expand the saying , it would be, you are what you eat AND you are what your mother ate . Pottenger was on to something !!


This is a good point, I've just never equated it to dogs and breeding as I don't breed.
A hundred years ago I had read a book on brain function and the effects of mal-nutrition. A malnourished mother (starving) affects the next five generations of mother child relationships. A malnourished child is quieter, less active and requires less hands on handling. The mother tends to not pay as much attention to the infant, child learns from mother and so on down the line.
Interesting stuff.
I bet although our nutritional needs are different, there are probably shelter workers who can attest to starving bitches and the behavior of the pups and how the mother interacts with the pups.

There's always the question of thyroid. Why are so many dogs of different breeds; purebreds, mixed, etc. having to take thyroid meds. Is it the miracle diagnosis of the new millenium, nutritional, or behaviorally based?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I thought Missouri was the show me State?
> 
> ]


I'm from Vermont AND Missouri, so you have to show me twice.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> Your vet loses me right there, with the "dog food is dog food" comment.
> 
> and dogs don't HAVE to have dental problems. My own dogs, raised on raw diets, have never needed any dental procedures. My dog Ianna (13 years old today) still has good teeth.


He doesn't believe that. He knows the raw theory, that chewing on raw food cleanses the teeth. He believes that eating dry kibble does the same thing. 

I don't know which side I should be on. I'm a dog lover, but I'm aspiring to be a vet. Also, if breeders feed science diet and their dogs don't have a lot of health problems, then doesn't he have a point with the "your dog can thrive just as well on Purina" comment?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> I thought Missouri was the show me State?
> 
> Jocoyn , do you know what one of the big problems with corn is , not just that it is a cheap filler --- that is that corn is one of the heaviest crops that is GMO , genetically modified . Not only am I surrounded by sheep in my little bit of acreage, I am surrounded by test fields of GMO corn.
> 
> ...


------------------
From that persepective - true. Actually soy is a big problem as well because not only is it GMO, it is GMO so they can spray it with roundup and not kill it so we get that sprayed all over our soybeans. 

Remember the book the Green Revolution? It has gone wild. I do have an issue with GMO foods becuase they are killing biodiversity, charging people if their non GMO stuff in an adjacent field is infected by GMO pollen [because GMO products are trademarked and worth money] - it is a racket.

I guess I was saying there is nothining inherently evil about corn. [if it is not corn scraps] compared to other grains.....that I know of.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't feed raw at this point.
But, I do give the girls raw Primal bones every week or so. And, the vet who saw Alice recently commented how good her teeth were for her age.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

All around me are fields of corn and alternate years soy crop. Many have markers inidicating test patches of seeds, hybrids, GMO which they must reveal, and tests for different herbicides . One of the main companies is Pioneer - Hi-Bred which has an interesting history , started by a US politician that I admire working under the Roosevelt administration as VP. He was a farmers advocate. Known because he was among the first , if not the first, to genetically engineer a hybrid corn which gave super crops and hope to dust bowl and mid war American farmers.
He lost the bid to Harry S Truman and history is what history became , we will never know if it would be different or better, had Wallace won . Every time I see those Pioneer signs in fields I think about this. Unfortunately now Pioneer and Monsanto are pretty well linked and dominate agriculture -- talk about monopoly . 
just a little side bar -- containing corn 
Carmen
http://www.carmspack


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

There's a really interesting documentary focusing on Monsanto, Food Inc I think.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

PaddyD said:


> I don't trust anyone who can't spell guarantee.


:rofl: I don't trust anyone who can't spell. :laugh:

And I have zero respect for people with the bad manners to presume to tell me what my motivation is for doing ANYTHING. If someone wants to know why I do what I do - and that can be which dog/s I've chosen to get, how I like to train them, and what sort of lifestyle I provide for them, in addition to what kind of food I feed, they can ASK me. 'Cause unless you're a good friend of mine, you have no idea why I do anything I do. 

If someone wants me to take them seriously, to actually consider what they're trying to sell me, then I want to know who they are and what credentials they have. If they're unwilling to provide that, well you know the saying: Opinions are like ___________, everyone has one.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> _And you do? We have asked repeatedly for YOUR credentials_


I think we'll be waiting a long time for that. Seems like someone is hiding behind a screen name and yet expecting everyone to take what they say as the gospel truth. 



jocoyn said:


> _You have a personal issue with Orijen. There are experienced breeders on This forum for many years and I see them feeding other foods than the ones you mention. Mainly raw, some with quality foods._


Yeah, I'm seeing that too. Wonder where that huge chip on sable's shoulder came from?


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I just find it funny that he says his reasoning for attacking people is trying to save them from biased people... When he's the most biased and the only one I ever see doing any attacking.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Knowing for fact how little instruction vets get in nutrition in school, a very short course that has to cram in multiple species, and in many cases is taught by representatives of the big dog food manufacturers (who also produce some of the most crappy foods... Purina, Iams and Hills), I don't put any stock in what a vet says about nutrition. They simply are not well educated in the topic, and much of what they are taught is clearly biased considering the sources from which it comes.
> 
> If, and it's a big IF, the vet has taken it upon himself to truly study and research canine nutrition, way beyond what is taught in vet school, and can prove it then his opinion has more value. But most don't. Frankly, unless it is a specific area of interest that they pursue in their own time, most wouldn't be able to if they wanted to.


Okay, I have read enough. You know for a fact? How so? Your very limited experience of vet school is not sufficient to base such a claim on. How long were you in vet school? One year? That one year lets you know for a 'fact' the amount of education a Vet student gets in nutrition. It's obvious something is amiss here. Sounds to me as though somebody has been hanging out at the Leerburg site - your post reads almost verbatim. Mr. Frawley is not the Messiah of all things dog. Your very misguided post is offensive to vet students, implying they are led like sheep to believe these corporate companies provide a good product.

Based on my experience which I will tell you is much more progressed than yours, vet students at my school do study nutrition as it is an integral part of the overall health of an animal. C'mon, that alone should make you know your post is full of half-truths. I do agree with you that Purina, Hills, Iams - the like, are crap foods. However, I have never been in a classroom where the instructor was a representative of one of these corporations nor have any obligations to them. In fact, I have a nutrition professor who is pro-barf, weird huh? The pet food companies do provide optional lectures where things such as proteins, calcium/potassium ratios, etc are discussed but I will promise you, they do not even bring up their own company or their food.

I am sorry but I fail to see how your very limited experience in one vet school gives you authority to speak for all vet schools and their course structure. 

By the way, I feed an all-natural, raw diet. I also advise my clients on appropriate, balanced barf diet. All this, even after experiencing four years of the big, bad, corporate dog food companies!

Please feel free to respond to my post but please spare me the ill rhetoric. Your post was full of half-truths and gross exaggerations. If you can provide me something factual stating that 'most vet students do not get sufficient nutritional training', I will be more than happy to rescind my post and admit I was wrong. However, I will bet dollars to donuts you have a very difficult time finding this factual information. 

(here's a hint, Mr. Fawley's Doggy-Bible teachings are not all factual, I would not start by looking there)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hey Dober-Dad, this is your first post and you've gone for the jugular. That is pretty awesome. I have to say that most of us are going to take what Chris says with a little more weight than someone coming on and half claiming he is some type of vet. 

We do not know you or anything about you. I would take my breed's breeder's advice on what to feed over most vet's advice. Vets cannot be experts on hundreds of breeds of dogs, but a breeder can be. 

Or, are you even real. 

Wow, never a dull moment.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Things that make you go, "HMMMMM......"


On the bright side...I don't just bash vets, I bashed the doctors who sent my diabetic mother home with vicodin when she was having a stroke telling her it was just ocular migraines. 

That may make me a medical armchair quarterback but even with my limited education....Hm...diabetis...out of control blood sugar, high blood pressure....sudden knee dropping blinding headache...might be cerebral episode.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> Hey Dober-Dad, this is your first post and you've gone for the jugular. That is pretty awesome. I have to say that most of us are going to take what Chris says with a little more weight than someone coming on and half claiming he is some type of vet.
> 
> Or did Sable go and make herself a new identity like the yayhoo last night.
> 
> Wow, never a dull moment.


Sorry if that came across as harsh, that was really not my intention. But c'mon, do you really believe that somebody who went to vet school for one year can speak for all of the vet schools curriculum? My post count should be overridden by common sense, at least pertaining to this thread. What I have found is Ed Frawley says that vets receive little to no nutrition courses and the masses believe it. I enjoy the Leerburg site and am even a customer, but you have to be able to take what people say and rationalize it in your own mind to form your own opinion. I understand many on here have not been to vet school and cannot speak on the topic but for somebody with very little experience in CVM to say what was said and say it's a fact, well that is wrong and simply an exaggeration.

I've read this board for months but never posted - didn't even register. I look forward to meaningful discussion in the future.

And please do not think this is all directed at Chris. I do not know her other than what I have read on here. I appreciate her posts and enjoy reading them. However, her post was the first I read that I just HAD to respond to


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Who's Ed Frawley?


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> On the bright side...I don't just bash vets


It comes with the territory. In any type of professional line of work, people are going to dislike you. You will also run into people in all forms of work who you wonder how they got their job and suspect they are a danger to the ones they serve.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> Who's Ed Frawley?


Ed Frawley owns Leerburg Kennels and is well known in the GSD/protection sport rings. I agree with a lot of what he says when it comes to nutrition. However, when he says that vets receive very little/no nutritional training, he is wrong. No other way around it, he is wrong and dishing up a disservice to vets everywhere. People know he is a respected person in the GSD world and sadly, believe much of what he says, whether it be based on fact or opinion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, people like, come on to the site and swim under the surface for months. Just wow. That feels almost like being stalked. Ooooh, gives me a bit of a shiver. I never realized we were so popular, and without even any political discussions. 

I have never been to the Leerburg site, unless to see that it is a working dog site. So I do not get into their training methods nor nutrition. But vets have a lot of schooling yes, but it absolutely impossible for them to have the experience with all the varieties, energy levels, various needs of different dog breeds on top of everything else. It does not make any sense, unless that is their specialty. 

And way too many of us have been encouraged to feed our dogs Purina or Science Diet by veterinarians. I personally think too many vets see dogs eating crap like Ole Roy, and are happy with anything that is produced to be 100% balance as per the AAFCO.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> Wow, people like, come on to the site and swim under the surface for months. Just wow. That feels almost like being stalked. Ooooh, gives me a bit of a shiver. I never realized we were so popular, and without even any political discussions.
> 
> I have never been to the Leerburg site, unless to see that it is a working dog site. So I do not get into their training methods nor nutrition. But vets have a lot of schooling yes, but it absolutely impossible for them to have the experience with all the varieties, energy levels, various needs of different dog breeds on top of everything else. It does not make any sense, unless that is their specialty.
> 
> And way too many of us have been encouraged to feed our dogs Purina or Science Diet by veterinarians. I personally think too many vets see dogs eating crap like Ole Roy, and are happy with anything that is produced to be 100% balance as per the AAFCO.


Ask questions, my man! If a vet tells you to feed a certain food, ask why. If your breeder tells you to feed a certain food, ask why! Why? Because you are smart enough to see through the BS and form your own opinion, right? I will tell you that in vet school, you will come across professors who base their teachings on their opinions. You will even find that they contradict each other. However, we are given the FACTS (a lot of that lacking in this thread) and we can see for ourselves what a good nutrition consists of.

Listen, you do not know me from Adam so to be leery, that is fine. However, for somebody who is an admin to come on here and state something as fact when it obviously is not, that should be called out. Read the post again, and I would guess you have a hard time arguing that she can say that what she wrote is 'fact'. I will understand if you are a friend of hers and wish to defend, that is fine. This is not me trying to be mean-spirited or harsh - just a healthy discussion.

But for you, ask questions. Don't follow the masses or a breeder just because you think you should.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> Wow, people like, come on to the site and swim under the surface for months. Just wow. That feels almost like being stalked. Ooooh, gives me a bit of a shiver. I never realized we were so popular, and without even any political discussions.


And yes, I assume many lurk without posting. I would ask that you put the tin foil hat back on and relax. :laugh:


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh, I had heard the name the first time on these forums. I actually have a pedigreed dog only because an adoption fell through and my house was too quiet.

I'm glad I have her as she's kick in the pants. Kinda like going from a volkswagon bug (last shepherd) to a BMW.

I have noticed that Dr. Nicolas Dodman has suggested that a very high protein diet and no structure in the home can lead to D/A issues. I did switch from Evo to Innova on that and the seizures slowed down. 
But, I don't even like the smell of Beneful, if it smells that bad before going into the dog; how awful will it be to clean up?

But, my current vet at the time was just pushing Pheno and nothing else, plus charging quite a bit more for the drug than if I had them call the script elsewhere. They didn't even suggest it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sable is that you? Sable??


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

GSD Fan said:


> He doesn't believe that. He knows the raw theory, that chewing on raw food cleanses the teeth. He believes that eating dry kibble does the same thing.


Does he seriously believe that eating dry kibble does the same thing? Then why do so many dogs need dental procedures to clean their teeth? Why do so many raw-fed dogs go thru their entire lives without ever needing a dental?




> I don't know which side I should be on. I'm a dog lover, but I'm aspiring to be a vet. Also, if breeders feed science diet and their dogs don't have a lot of health problems, then doesn't he have a point with the "your dog can thrive just as well on Purina" comment?


Where are you getting your information that breeders feed SD and don't have a lot of health problems? I know quite a few breeders, and none of them feed their dogs SD. I have a couple of students (dog training) who feed SD because they work for the parent company so they get it at a discount....most are in OK but not great condition, and one if extremely overweight + bad coat and skin, and seems to be completely unable to lose any weight even tho she's on the light formula.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am my dogs' breeder. All but the one I got from Germany, and I cannot exactly feed what they are feeding. I think my post on here does say exactly that, go to your breeder, have a conversation about what to feed, and then make up your own mind. 

I am actually blessed with a couple of vets at my clinic that respect me and give me the time of day, and answer my questions about things. They do not expect me to switch to their brand or what have you. And they are not afraid to contradict the the popular thought on the subject. 

But again, a vet is responsible for many species and many breeds. They may not have personally dealt with our breed. And even if they have, their experience is limited. I prefer to discuss dog food choices with people who have lots of experience with my breed. 

And we still fight and argue about it, but at least I am comparing apples to apples.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I still question the overprocessing of dogfood and the amount of dogs developing thyroid issues. 
Soloxomine (sp?) seems to be quite the popular drug these days.

Heck even packaged human foods. I only do them as guilty pleasures as the sodium content is astronomical.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> But again, a vet is responsible for many species and many breeds. They may not have personally dealt with our breed. And even if they have, their experience is limited. I prefer to discuss dog food choices with people who have lots of experience with my breed.


This is my opinion, I will state this up front. Dog food is not breed specific. Rather, activity level and health should determine the food you feed. I breed JRTs every few years and can tell you, at least in my experience, there is no cookie cutter food for each pup in the litter. Some may have more sensitive GI issues while others have an iron gut. 

Another point I feel is important is to mix up the proteins your dog gets. Don't just stick to chicken, turkey, or beef - give them a variety. Would you want to eat the same meal daily your entire life?


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

sable123 said:


> There are any number of them that cost half as much but you would not be in any position to judge because of the inherent bias you have.
> 
> You buy Orijen for two reasons 1) It is expensive and the perception is that it is better and 2) You are from California, where eltisim is part of the culture.


I'm in California, but a born and bred ******* from AZ... I buy the highest quality food I can, being in a single-income family with two kids with special needs. We've tried a dozen brands, and the Natura we are using seems to be the best. California's "elitism" is mostly contained in San Francisco, LA, and a few other costal towns. The rest of California is full of down to earth, intelligent regular people. Sad thing is, the "elites" run the media, so thats what people see. When I first moved out to CA 13 years ago, I honestly expected to see wall-to-wall blondes in designer outfits, "Valley talk" etc... Surprised me when I found out there aren't a lot of "pretty people."



Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wow. You don't even know me yet you make all these assumptions. Please don't hurt yourself jumping to conclusions.
> 
> #1: I have no inherent bias regarding pet foods. I've had dogs since 1986, and have only fed Orijen for a couple of years.
> 
> ...


:happyboogie:




DoberDad said:


> And yes, I assume many lurk without posting. I would ask that you put the tin foil hat back on and relax. :laugh:


I lurked for a year before finally registering and posting.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> I still question the overprocessing of dogfood and the amount of dogs developing thyroid issues.
> Soloxomine (sp?) seems to be quite the popular drug these days.
> 
> Heck even packaged human foods. I only do them as guilty pleasures as the sodium content is astronomical.


I like that Natura uses vitamin e as a preservative. Processing of foods, both human and pets, is not good but is a necessary evil (in a limited amount). 

People who feed raw, they run to Wal-Mart and pick up some Purdue chicken, some frozen vegetables, bone, etc and bring it home to their dog. They would be surprised at the level of processing these products have undergone. 

Get a farm, live off the farm. That is the way to go


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> This is my opinion, I will state this up front. Dog food is not breed specific.


Does the Humane Society Silicon Valley and Royal Canin know this?

*that's a bad joke*

And....don't even get me started on the Elitism stuff......Ha, ha...
I used to say that we had an immigration problem...we need a fence at the Nevada border. Or, heck a good earthquake even.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Sable is that you? Sable??


No sir/ma'am. I see one post where she says people buy Orijen because it is expensive. 

I'll not say what I think of that as it will likely get me banned.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DoberDad said:


> This is my opinion, I will state this up front. Dog food is not breed specific. Rather, activity level and health should determine the food you feed. I breed JRTs every few years and can tell you, at least in my experience, there is no cookie cutter food for each pup in the litter. Some may have more sensitive GI issues while others have an iron gut.
> 
> Another point I feel is important is to mix up the proteins your dog gets. Don't just stick to chicken, turkey, or beef - give them a variety. Would you want to eat the same meal daily your entire life?


Maybe not, but a lady at Canidae told me that GSDs and Great Danes had the most trouble with the new formula. Was she Lying? I do not think so. Some GSDs do just fine with the new formula, others do terrible with it. I think that there are things about our breed or any breed that might make them sensitive to an ingredient or requiring more or less of an substance. I think that a good starting place in finding a good food for our breed is with breeders of dogs either from our bloodlines, or at least from our lines. The chances are you are then dealing with someone who has experience with dogs of similar line, energy, size, drive, and health concerns. 

DoberDad, I am trying to figure you out. Your user name suggests Dobermans, but you breed Jack Russels, and are lurking on a GSD site. So, do you have a GSD a Doberman and Jack Russels, or does your Jack Russel, named Dober, think he is a GSD? You better watch when you feed him that raw stuff, sometimes that makes them think they are big bad GSDs. LOL.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> Does he seriously believe that eating dry kibble does the same thing? Then why do so many dogs need dental procedures to clean their teeth? Why do so many raw-fed dogs go thru their entire lives without ever needing a dental?


I don't think it's using raw or kibble that makes a difference with their teeth, I think it's how much junk food you feed the dog. 

The dog who gets more pieces of leftover toast with jelly, french fries, left over mac and cheese etc. is probably going to have more problems with his teeth than the dog that's limited to raw or kibble, or kibble with added meat and vegetables. Just guessing but it make sense to me.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh, and I find it rather amusing you're bashing someone about their opinion on vet nutrition because they were only in vet school...yet you're in vet school? Intersting.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> DoberDad, I am trying to figure you out. Your user name suggests Dobermans, but you breed Jack Russels, and are lurking on a GSD site. So, do you have a GSD a Doberman and Jack Russels, or does your Jack Russel, named Dober, think he is a GSD? You better watch when you feed him that raw stuff, sometimes that makes them think they are big bad GSDs. LOL.


I grew up with JRTs and my family continues to breed them. I'm not a small dog type of person, but a JRT does it for me 

I have a red dobe that I adore. He has no special bloodlines but dammit, he's a pretty good 'ol dog and I wouldn't trade him for anything. 

My wife and I are involved in working GSDs. She owns a three year old bitch and is progressing nicely. 

For my SSN, DOB, age, and weight - well, that needs to be handled via private message as there are a bunch of weirdos on the internet! :laugh:


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Oh, and I find it rather amusing you're bashing someone about their opinion on vet nutrition because they were only in vet school...yet you're in vet school? Intersting.


Please read my post and understand it before commenting. It makes proceeding much easier.

To answer your question, I did not bash her opinion on vet nutrition. Had you read my post, you would have seen this. Had you read any of my subsequent posts, you would see that she and I have similar beliefs on nutrition. I took exception to her saying that vets receive very little to no nutritional training while in vet school. She made a blanket statement and stated it as fact based off of ONE year in vet school. How can one make that statement when they did not experience a full vet school course load? Simply stated, she is wrong and I pointed that out.

No, I am no longer in vet school but feel that I CAN base my statements on EXPERIENCE as I did go through the whole process. C/O 2003


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't think it's using raw or kibble that makes a difference with their teeth, I think it's how much junk food you feed the dog.
> 
> The dog who gets more pieces of leftover toast with jelly, french fries, left over mac and cheese etc. is probably going to have more problems with his teeth than the dog that's limited to raw or kibble, or kibble with added meat and vegetables. Just guessing but it make sense to me.


 I feed RAW, but I don't think dogs on kibble can't have good teeth.
It has more to do with the junk in the food than kibble or raw. Raw usually contains very little in the way of grains, usually none. Lots of dog foods are corn, corn meal, and more corn something. 

What i'd consider "good" dog foods don't have that stuff, or as much in it, and i wouldn't expect them to contribute to tooth decay like the corn filled foods.

on a side note, and I read this in a museum but never fact checked, but they stated in fossil records of the Native Americans, no signs of tooth decay was present, until the advent of agriculture and the cultivation of corn. And the corn grown back then, even 20 years ago, was much higher in protein and much lower in starchy carbs than today. I believe that statment because it makes sense, but i've never fact checked it. Someone wanna do it for me?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DoberDad said:


> I grew up with JRTs and my family continues to breed them. I'm not a small dog type of person, but a JRT does it for me
> 
> I have a red dobe that I adore. He has no special bloodlines but dammit, he's a pretty good 'ol dog and I wouldn't trade him for anything.
> 
> ...


You mean like people who lurk for months, reading people's posts without ever posting?


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> You mean like people who lurk for months, reading people's posts without ever posting?


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...vets-perspective-post2118636.html#post2118636
:laugh:


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

You folks have a good night. For me, it's bed time. 

Please know, my post meant no disrespect to Chris. However, stating an opinion as fact is wrong and discussion is healthy.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

DoberDad said:


> You folks have a good night. For me, it's bed time.
> 
> Please know, my post meant no disrespect to Chris. However, stating an opinion as fact is wrong and discussion is healthy.


Just for the record you may want to go re-read your own posts. You say you meant no disrespect yet were very disrespectful and accusatory. She said MOST not all. How many schools did you go to? How many different states through out the country. How can you say because YOUR school didn't do it that way that all vet schools don't? You want Chris to back up her claims yet you can not back up yours by proving that NO vet schools operate in the manner of which Chris described. I'm sorry I have known a few vets that have flat out told me they did not receive adequate training in nutrition. 

You have also jumped on other posters and came off quite rude towards them and telling them to go back and read your posts. I have read every post you made so far and you seem to be trying to tell people you mean well yet come across quite harsh.

Never once did someone say ALL vets, so getting all up in arms because you were one of the few who were taught better really is pointless especially when you do it so vicious. 

You also seemed to make it quite the point to try and cut Chris off at the knees not just because of the vet comment. Making it seem like she didn't think for herself and everything she said came from leerburgs site like she hasn't done YEARS of her own research for anything she knows. Quite accusatory if you ask me and rather hypocritical to attack someone for a broad statement who "can not back it up" when you can't back up your own claims since you have limited experience with vet schools. You may have first hand knowledge for going through vet school and completing however does not mean you know how ALL of them operate just how YOURS did. 

I do commend you on your choice of schools from the sound of it seems you had a great professor and obviously did your own research to feel raw was a good feeding choice but not every place runs like that and that is what has been pointed out.

BTW just because you preface an insult with a compliment does not take the insult away or make it any better. You can't keep saying "no disrespect" and then disrespect someone and expect it to be ok, and yes you have done it and not just once but a few times.

PS I'm sure I'm being repetitive and probably spelling and grammar errors but it's late and I have no sleep in me so I do apologize to those who got stuck reading this lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

DoberDAd , I am totally confused . Are you a vet student ? You say you HAVE a prof , present tense . Then you say you HAVE clients to which you recommend , once a gain present tense. You can not be a student and a practicing vet at the same time. What is/was your school. 

Is that you in the tin foil hat? Maybe because it may be a jack russell terrier in a tin foil hat too..

There are breed specific foods by the way which are based on the heritage of the breeds. Actually , a book , which came out in 1990 entitled "Canine Nutrition - Choosing the Best Food for Your Breed of Dog" Each Breed is Different with Histories and Nutritional Guidelines for 152 Individual Breeds" is a title that I read and have on my shelf should I want to refer to it. It suggests , for instance , that a GSD quote , "region of Germany provided this breed with primary food sources of beef, wheat , and leafy greens like cabbage and alfalfa. Thus, I recommend a blend of these food sources as the ideal base diet for the German Shepherd. Conversely, I feel the worst commercial food blend for the German Shepherd Dog would contain fish, soy or rice."

Now this makes some sense because fish are coastal , not inland . Prior to refrigeration fish was very difficult to transport for any distance without spoiling. Yes I have seen GSD put onto fish based kibble , or frequent fish meals and degrade in condition . Fish protein and fish oil and not one and the same. 

The dachshund , also being a German creation is recommended to eat horsemeat , potatoes , peas, beef , corn .

Yes horsemeat used to be a major source of dog meat . I remember cans of horsemeat but cannot remember the brand . There used to be a butcher exclusive to horsemeat in Toronto's Danforth which is now Greek (but changing) but was largely Italian back in the day.

The Boxer , from a near region is recommended pork, poultry , oats and rye. 

Culturally I would say that Pork is the dominant meat source for German cuisine yet not one time was pork recommended for dogs of German origin including Boxer , GSD, Dachshund , Schnauzer. Only when it comes to the Great Dane is wild boar and venision mentioned. 
This book , to me , has the feel of a self-published book. An interesting quick flip , lots of repetition . Some information in the book has been disputed . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

webzpinner said:


> *California's "elitism" is mostly contained in San Francisco, LA, and a few other costal towns*. The rest of California is full of down to earth, intelligent regular people.


Not quite. I'm born and raised in the Bay Area, 20/25 miles from San Francisco, among down to earth intelligent "regular" people. 

Elitism exists among the wealthy upper class, who can be found throughout this country, not just in SF and LA, and not just in California.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Notice he completely skipped my post on Purdue? Lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sable 123 and doberdad -- have a read Cancer Resources at Monica Segal

are these useless , or junk supplements?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

Holmeshx2 said:


> Just for the record you may want to go re-read your own posts. You say you meant no disrespect yet were very disrespectful and accusatory. She said MOST not all. How many schools did you go to? How many different states through out the country. How can you say because YOUR school didn't do it that way that all vet schools don't? You want Chris to back up her claims yet you can not back up yours by proving that NO vet schools operate in the manner of which Chris described. I'm sorry I have known a few vets that have flat out told me they did not receive adequate training in nutrition.
> 
> You have also jumped on other posters and came off quite rude towards them and telling them to go back and read your posts. I have read every post you made so far and you seem to be trying to tell people you mean well yet come across quite harsh.
> 
> ...


Take it as you wish, but again, please read and understand my post before commenting. My post to Chris was out of disbelief that somebody would post that to begin with and secondly, out of frustration that what was being posted would actually be believed by others.

I did not say all schools' curriculum includes much nutrition. Rather, I was very careful to mention NCSU did. On the contrary, it was Chris who took the blanket approach to say most (how can she quantify 'most'?) vets have very little nutritional training. Again, Chris went to one vet school for one year and makes this claim. That is silly and misguided.

Again, read, understand, comment.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> DoberDAd , I am totally confused . Are you a vet student ? You say you HAVE a prof , present tense . Then you say you HAVE clients to which you recommend , once a gain present tense. You can not be a student and a practicing vet at the same time. What is/was your school.
> 
> Is that you in the tin foil hat? Maybe because it may be a jack russell terrier in a tin foil hat too..
> 
> ...


I have completed vet school, NCSU C/O 2003. It's my opinion that dog food is not breed specific as I see dogs daily of all ages, all breeds, all up bringings have issues with all types of foods. There is no cookie-cutter approach to dog feeding. Find a high quality diet and try it, if it agrees with your dogs system, keep on it and try to mix up the protein source every month or so. If you find a protein source that does not agree with your pup, stick away from it. 

I read years ago that dobes have a pre-disposed liking to beef due to their ancestry. My dobe has severe issues with beef as well as pork. He can have trout in moderation, but does well on most other meats. 

It is not me in the tin foil hat. I was simply kidding with the other poster and poking fun at the paranoia.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> sable 123 and doberdad -- have a read Cancer Resources at Monica Segal
> 
> are these useless , or junk supplements?
> 
> ...


Again, this is my opinion and what I would recommend, but I supplement based on need. If you are feeding kibble, many high quality kibble are already supplemented appropriately.

Folks love their pets so much that they go on sites like Leerburg/the like and read about supplements. They want to do what is best for the health of their pet so they haphazardly begin supplementing. This leads to over-supplementing and potential medical issues (my opinion).

I do not have time to read the link as I need to get to the office but will take a look later this afternoon.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm sorry but this whole elitism/dog food argument makes me chuckle. I'm sitting here thinking of somebody with their $100,000 vehicle in the driveway of their muti-million dollar home feeling as though they must feed Orijen simply so they will fit in with the other Orange County ladies. It's ridiculous to me and I do not agree with Sable that that happens. Who knows, maybe in a rare instance, but I think people feed Orijen because of it's great reputation. 

You get what you pay for. If you want a great food, you will generally pay a premium for it. If you want to pay $10/40 lb bag, go get the Ole Roy garbage. But to suggest that folks use their dog food as a status symbol, well, that is a stretch folks.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Dober Dad - I am no vet but I have worked for vets as well as ran the Junior Surgery lab at a vet school and worked as a research assistant when I got out of college. My impression of the typical vet is like the typical doctor. *Note, I say typical. *

Jack of all trades, master of none. Good - but not the *best* student (Ask me about the pre med and pre vet students in my biochemistry and physical chemistry classes). But they had to have other characteristics - really become capable business people etc etc. The trade masters are often the ones who are more socially inept but go into research. Note, I say often. These are my personal generalizations.

I guess that comes to the point of having spent about 30 adult years owning dogs and my level of frustration with veterinarians for NOT knowing some areas in depth. Simply not knowing. They can't. They must be generalists unless they specialize. Nutrition does seem to be one of them and just about every vet out there seems to push Science Diet and dismiss raw.

I totally agree with you though on walmart chicken and think there is some diligence required in setting up an appropriate raw diet. And found out rabbits are imported from china. Pork is another challenge for me. Because I work a cadaver dog I really don't want my dogs eating something that smells so similar to human. [Though I do proof off of pig remains so the dog won't indicate on them]

The trouble with the internet is that we don't really know who you are until you have been around awhile. Chris has been breeding for awhile and members have her dogs as has Carmen. Flesh and blood people known to people on the board. Sable, I don't have a clue. I can be verified as secretary of a SAR team with an operational, certified dog. And if I omitted some posters on the thread likewise my apologies.

You are the one who brought Ed Frawley into it but I don't see anyone quoting him nor do I credit him with popularizing any of this. He seems to jump on the bandwagon late with new ides (probably some good caution). I still remember when he was running down marker training, now he sells DVDs on it. I don't fault him for that; I gather he wants to not jump before testing the water.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I think it was Kal Kan that was primarily horsemeat.


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## heatherr (Jun 5, 2010)

I was feeding my cats Pro Plan, or Purina One, so when I got my pup, I put him on Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy, since his foster mom was feeding him Alpo. 

When I took him to the vet for his "I have a dog! And here he is!" check up, she suggested feeding a kibble that was high in protein with little fillers. 

When I told her I was concerned about price, she suggested Chicken Soup or California Natural. She said between those and TOTW/Origin/Innova/etc there isn't TOO much difference. She even said that since he looked great on the ProPlan, if I could only afford to mix in a higher quality kibble with the cheaper ProPlan, that could be good too. Whit has been on the grain-free California Naturals and has been doing great on it.

The biggest thing with dog food, like people food, is to make sure the ingredients are real things, not over processed crap.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

DoberDad: Welcome to the forum and thanks for your perspective. Just one last question though--you mentioned having graduated from vet school, class of 2003. Are you presently in veterinary practice? Excuse me if it seems like a silly follow up question, but I am glad to see another DVM contribute posts who is in the trenches.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> The trouble with the internet is that we don't really know who you are until you have been around awhile. Chris has been breeding for awhile and members have her dogs as has Carmen. Flesh and blood people known to people on the board. Sable, I don't have a clue. I can be verified as secretary of a SAR team with an operational, certified dog. And if I omitted some posters on the thread likewise my apologies.


Please understand, I do not argue Chris's nutrition points. Rather, I argue that she is making sweeping generalizations and stating them as fact. I agree with much of what Chris believes regarding nutrition. I do not agree that vets receive little to no nutritional training in vet school, that notion is simply false. I have friends in the field from Michigan State, VPI, UGA, and Florida. I can tell you that those schools provide a good amount of nutritional training. The notion that these crap food companies buy our endorsement is total garbage. Yes, they offer luncheons and optional lectures but I will tell you, they do not pitch their product and I cannot remember ever hearing one of the reps mention their food. However, they do wear Purina branded clothing and we receive neat little branded pens, highlighters, and laser pointers. Does this make me want to sell their food? No. Does it make anybody want to sell their food? Maybe, who knows. I cannot speak for all vets, just as Chris cannot speak for all vet schools.

My guess is the profit margin on the Science Diet line of foods is better than Innova, Orijen, etc. I believe it's a business decision to sell the food as some vets, particularly old-school vets, may not have bought into the grain free, BARF, and raw diets. This is only my guess as I do not sell SD nor do any of my close friends in the profession.



> You are the one who brought Ed Frawley into it but I don't see anyone quoting him nor do I credit him with popularizing any of this. He seems to jump on the bandwagon late with new ides (probably some good caution). I still remember when he was running down marker training, now he sells DVDs on it. I don't fault him for that; I gather he wants to not jump before testing the water.


I did not say anybody was quoting Mr. Frawley. However, he is a big proponent of the 'vets receive little to no nutritional training in vet school' idea. He has videos stating such claims and I would bet dollars to donuts, there are articles on his site spewing the same garbage. Ed is guilty of the same thing as many others - sweeping generalizations stated as fact. This is not to say I do not enjoy his site, his products, or his videos - I do enjoy them. However, people need to understand that some of the stuff he states as fact, is simply his opinion.

I have had clients come to me and flat out tell me they refuse to get a rabies vax as they read on Leerburg that vaccinations are poison. What they fail to realize is Ed does not, at least to my knowledge, preach against rabies vax. They simply read that he does not vaccinate his dogs against parvo and the like and decide that includes rabies. This is no fault of Ed's, just an issue where people respect your advice and do not comprehend what you are telling them. It can be very dangerous.

Ed has done a lot of good for protection sports and the breed. I probably look like I am beating up on him, but I am trying not to. I just disagree with some of what he says and I see a lot of folks taking his opinions as fact and spreading them as fact.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

CaliBoy said:


> DoberDad: Welcome to the forum and thanks for your perspective. Just one last question though--you mentioned having graduated from vet school, class of 2003. Are you presently in veterinary practice? Excuse me if it seems like a silly follow up question, but I am glad to see another DVM contribute posts who is in the trenches.


I am a partner in a practice in a small town in NE Georgia. I have been blessed beyond measure in this field and thank God daily for these blessings. As an animal lover, it does not get any better than getting paid to provide medical assistance to them in need. It's a very rewarding profession.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSD Fan said:


> But those people who preached that to me are not vets and vets are qualified in this area, especially nutrition vets.
> 
> What do you guys think? Let us discuss.


Haven't read through the many pages but I'll share what a vet told me while discussing foods.

and I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember word for word...

"the downside to being a vet today is we don't study nutrition in depth"

Basically, this fairly young vet was telling me that they didn't have a sufficient education in nutrition and any questions I asked him, he had to send out to Cornell (where he went to vet school) to get the answers. 

So, unless this is a vet who has taken a special interest in nutrition, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what they say as they probably don't know any more than us if we've done our research.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

heatherr said:


> I was feeding my cats Pro Plan, or Purina One, so when I got my pup, I put him on Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy, since his foster mom was feeding him Alpo.
> 
> When I took him to the vet for his "I have a dog! And here he is!" check up, she suggested feeding a kibble that was high in protein with little fillers.
> 
> ...


It's my opinion that Chicken Soup is not bad. Not great, but not bad. A lot of folks like to feed grain free, this food is not a grain free food. 

I will be honest, a lot of folks have great luck with Purina ProPlan. I do not recommend it, but I have seen many dogs doing very well on this food. In fact, a lot of the Doberman folks swear by ProPlan (see dobermantalk.com if you want an idea of their thoughts). These are the same Dober-Folks who despise Purina as a brand.

Not to be a buz kill, but a lot of the packaged food you see is going to have a fair amount of processing. It's an unfortunate truth. The one food I have seen that does not suffer this is the Honest Kitchen line of food. It's pretty good stuff!


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> So, unless this is a vet who has taken a special interest in nutrition, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what they say as they probably don't know any more than us if we've done our research.


Again, sweeping generalizations. You have no idea of my background, nor my knowledge of nutrition. Yet, you dismiss me simply because you know one vet who says they did not receive adequate nutritional training. Now, I do not personally know a vet who went to Cornell, so I cannot argue what he told you, but I can tell you that MSU, UGA, UF, and NCSU provide a very solid program on nutrition.

It's my opinion that this is the fault of your vet. There are plenty of opportunities to pick up an extra rotation in nutrition if you feel as though you have not learned enough through your coursework. I find it irresponsible to feel as though you have not been adequately trained and decline additional rotations. If this is not what happened with this vet, then I do not know what to tell you.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

Do not just take my word or your breeder's word. Research it for yourself! If you are a science nerd like me, you will enjoy the research! 

The linked site below is an excellent resource to read up on many, many foods. The reviews are from folks like you who have an interest in nutrition. They also provide reasoning behind their reviews, which is and can be very insightful. Read their reviews, do some research, talk to your vet, talk to your breeder, talk to friends, etc. That is what I would recommend.

Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay dr doberdad what would you say to a client who has a dog with allergies?
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

DoberDad said:


> Do not just take my word or your breeder's word. Research it for yourself! If you are a science nerd like me, you will enjoy the research!
> 
> The linked site below is an excellent resource to read up on many, many foods. The reviews are from folks like you who have an interest in nutrition. They also provide reasoning behind their reviews, which is and can be very insightful. Read their reviews, do some research, talk to your vet, talk to your breeder, talk to friends, etc. That is what I would recommend.
> 
> Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost


Um...you're preaching to the choir! Read any of the food threads on here and you'll see that there are lots of folks who know their stuff. 

Check out the health section on this board and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the wealth of knowledge. Longtime gsd owners tend to know a lot about food because the breed has so many digestive health problems.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> okay dr doberdad what would you say to a client who has a dog with allergies?
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Provided we have ruled out environmental allergens and pinned food as the culprit, I would recommend a grain free food with very few ingredients. The lower the ingredient count, the easier to pin down the particular allergen. I believe Canidae has a good food (or did) for this. It's also important that you give the dog time to detox while on the new food. Too many times, a client will move to a new food, only to go back to their original food after two weeks because they saw no improvement. Improvement can take 4 - 6 weeks in some cases and a new diet cannot be expected to be an overnight cure.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Um...you're preaching to the choir! Read any of the food threads on here and you'll see that there are lots of folks who know their stuff.
> 
> Check out the health section on this board and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the wealth of knowledge. Longtime gsd owners tend to know a lot about food because the breed has so many digestive health problems.


I look forward to getting over there - been very busy in this thread, as you can see. I do not doubt at all that there are very knowledgeable people on this board with regards to nutrition. Heck, they are in this thread! I agree with much of what most of you are saying!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> Um...you're preaching to the choir! Read any of the food threads on here and you'll see that there are lots of folks who know their stuff.
> 
> Check out the health section on this board and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the wealth of knowledge. Longtime gsd owners tend to know a lot about food because the breed has so many digestive health problems.


I know--this is kind of funny.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would not consider Canidae to be an LID food.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I would not consider Canidae to be an LID food.


I may be wrong on this but I thought they had a product years ago which was grain free, one protein (lamb), and very low on ingredients. I'll do some digging and see if I can find it.

There are many options out there for a limited ingredient food. 

One other point, it's my experience that allergies are most often environmental rather than food. Too many folks are quick to point to their dog's food as the culprit rather than looking at everything as a whole. Allergens can be a tough booger to track down unless you are fortunate enough to be able to afford the tests. Even then, it's not a given that you will find the allergen.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

They do have single protein foods that are NOT grain free, but there are still a lot of ingredients in them that are pretty random. I believe sage extract and a bunch of fruits.....

All the grain free food I've seen from them has more than 1 protein source


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Actually a few less ingredients than I thought...but still not what I'd consider LID.

CANIDAE All Natural Ingredients
Lamb meal, brown rice, cracked pearled barley, rice bran, peas, millet, canola oil, lamb, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, potassium chloride, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, papaya, pineapple.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

DoberDad said:


> Provided we have ruled out environmental allergens and pinned food as the culprit, I would recommend a grain free food with very few ingredients. The lower the ingredient count, the easier to pin down the particular allergen. I believe Canidae has a good food (or did) for this. It's also important that you give the dog time to detox while on the new food. Too many times, a client will move to a new food, only to go back to their original food after two weeks because they saw no improvement. Improvement can take 4 - 6 weeks in some cases and a new diet cannot be expected to be an overnight cure.


The most effective food for allergies is one with Catfish. I know of only two: Annamaet Option & Blackwood. These are the only ones I know that actually work. They are also good enough as life-long diets.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

So why go to a vet then to try to solve an allergy problem. 
One of the most difficult things to do is to keep up with the information load . Science is jumping leaps and bounds. 
Here is one university that was awarded one million plus to continue research Peanut allergy may be treatable - thestar.com 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract


Lots of gut bugs in there! A dog should not have diarrhea problems on this food 

I see flaxseed as well. I'm not a big fan of flaxseed oil for my omega 3s. Some dogs have issues converting the flaxseed to a usable form and are left with a high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio. Hello inflamation!


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> So why go to a vet then to try to solve an allergy problem.
> One of the most difficult things to do is to keep up with the information load . Science is jumping leaps and bounds.
> Here is one university that was awarded one million plus to continue research Peanut allergy may be treatable - thestar.com
> 
> ...


Going with an elimination diet is only one way to go about correcting an allergy issue. Your vet can provide you other options, including intradermal skin tests as well as serum-based tests. Clients often decide to try the elimination diet as it is often the cheapest route.


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## DoberDad (Apr 27, 2011)

sable123 said:


> The most effective food for allergies is one with Catfish. I know of only two: Annamaet Option & Blackwood. These are the only ones I know that actually work. They are also good enough as life-long diets.


First I have heard of catfish. I have seen great success in using a protein source your pet has not been introduced to in the past (admittedly, this can be difficult). This may be a product of that.

The big allergen I have seen recently is not a food, but laundry detergent. The perfumes used seem to be wreaking havoc over the last year or so. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence or if the Tide's of the world have went with a more potent perfume.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

DoberDad said:


> Lots of gut bugs in there! A dog should not have diarrhea problems on this food
> 
> I see flaxseed as well. I'm not a big fan of flaxseed oil for my omega 3s. Some dogs have issues converting the flaxseed to a usable form and are left with a high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio. Hello inflamation!


Unless, of course, one of the other ingredients are not agreeing with him or her 

You can give a dog as many probiotics as you want...if they have a food sensitivity it will not do a lick of good.

I think flax is used in LID's more because fish oil can also attribute to the runs with dogs with weak tummies. My girl does great on food with flaxseed in them, but horrible on fish oil. Soft poops galore.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

DoberDad said:


> First I have heard of catfish. I have seen great success in using a protein source your pet has not been introduced to in the past. This may be a product of that.
> 
> The big allergen I have seen recently is not a food, but laundry detergent. The perfumes used seem to be wreaking havoc over the last year or so. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence or if the Tide's of the world have went with a more potent perfume.


I totally agree with you. Except in very cases, food allergies are dreamed up by the owners, and when they do exist 90% of the time it is animal protein.

Anyway, these are the only ones that actually work for protein sensitive dogs and it has to do with 1) The dog has never had it & 2) Catfish does not elicit histamine.

Annamaet Petfoods - super-premium dog food AAFCO certified, scroll to Option
Blackwood 5000 | Catfish Meal & Potato | Blackwood Pet Food

Just great science.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The problem is that eventually the dog will be allergic to cat fish also , because once again you have addressed a symptom and not the cause. Would you like to speak to someone who has gone through, chicken, turkey, lamb, beef , fish, bush baby, kangaroo, ostrich / emu, and now feeds llama? Dodging the protein bullet. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Wow, where did you get kangaroo??


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

sable123 said:


> I totally agree with you. Except in very cases, food allergies are dreamed up by the owners, and when they do exist 90% of the time it is animal protein.
> 
> Anyway, these are the only ones that actually work for protein sensitive dogs and it has to do with 1) The dog has never had it & 2) Catfish does not elicit histamine.
> 
> ...


That's a bold statement--it only works because the dog has never had it? There are a lot of proteins out there that dogs aren't exposed to. Catfish is hardly the only option.

As far as the histamine. That's only partially true. Most fish has little to no histamine, however, you're almost immediately accumulating it because of various processes--preservation, getting "old" or rancid, etc.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sable. What would you tell this person:

Dog is itchy and has soft poops. Proteins in the food include turkey and chicken. Grains are rice and oats.

Switch to bland of chicken and rice and soft poo turns to explosion out of rear end.

Switch to bland of beef and rice and improves slightly.

Switch to bland of beef and sweet potato and poops are perfect and itchies are gone.

No other changes.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it is dehydrated and packaged , sold by a friend in her raw food boutique Addiction Food Store - Outback Kangaroo Feast

they "Addiction" company also sells exotic bush baby - 

carried by Heron View Raw N Natural Raw and Natural - Heronview Raw and Natural

will send by post .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I also think Hills or one of those comapnies has a prescription food that is kangaroo.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Holy expensive Batman! See now, people on the West coast should be feeding kangaroo and Bush bay to really impress at the dog park.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

made me laugh! they are closer to Australia so it might not be as expensive.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> The problem is that eventually the dog will be allergic to cat fish also , because once again you have addressed a symptom and not the cause. Would you like to speak to someone who has gone through, chicken, turkey, lamb, beef , fish, bush baby, kangaroo, ostrich / emu, and now feeds llama? Dodging the protein bullet.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


That is true because it is an immunity problem not fixable by diet. Catfish has a much longer fuse though because of the lower histamine response. It might not be a bad idea to look at hydrolyzed protein. I don't like the idea myself but sometimes you just have to do what makes the dog comfortable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DoberDad said:


> Lots of gut bugs in there! A dog should not have diarrhea problems on this food
> 
> I see flaxseed as well. I'm not a big fan of flaxseed oil for my omega 3s. Some dogs have issues converting the flaxseed to a usable form and are left with a high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio. Hello inflamation!


Flaxseed has omega 3 in the form of ALA, which is a usable form. Personally, I don't use flaxseed for the reason you stated as well as flaxseed starts to degrade as soon as it is ground or pressed so it loses most of it's value. However, since it is still an O3 I don't understand why it contributes to a high 6 to 3 ratio? Is it only the EPA/DHA that 'count'? My understanding is that ALA still helps even when not converted to EPA/DHA.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Sable. What would you tell this person:
> 
> Dog is itchy and has soft poops. Proteins in the food include turkey and chicken. Grains are rice and oats.
> 
> ...


Feed CORN! :rofl: Sorry...couldn't resist. I crack me up.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> Holy expensive Batman! See now, people on the West coast should be feeding kangaroo and Bush bay to really impress at the dog park.


Not as impressive as shih-tzu or wallaby.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

by the way I am not feeding kangaroo -- mine are raw , and the occasional day here or there of orijen in case they get rehomed at some point and they have to recognize kibble as food.
This was a man who bought a GSD , and when he came to feeding llama -- and the dog was starting to show the same old same old , he was referred to me -- he was put on probiotics , digestive enzymes , and then I referred him to Monica Segal who also supports probiotics. You must change the digestive landscape, change the terrain.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nah , hydrolized protein is just predigested protein, which a healthy digestive system should do by itself. Hydrolization is just blending the begeezus out of it to increase surface area to further help with breakdown (protease) and absorption/assimilation. .
Sure it helps but why do a detour.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> nah , hydrolized protein is just predigested protein, which a healthy digestive system should do by itself. Hydrolization is just blending the begeezus out of it to increase surface area to further help with breakdown (protease) and absorption/assimilation. .
> Sure it helps but why do a detour.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Well it does work.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Don't even get me going on the many starred Canidae. Had my crew on it for two years. One never did well on it. but in the middle of that time they changed the formula and started using Diamond as a manufacturer. 

I have small bags for puppy buyers that I won't even take to the shelter because I wouldn't want to hurt those dogs. 

Had my parents' allergic dog on Canidae Grain free -- did not work. We tried it for a LONG time, about six months. Nope. 

I switched foods, and colitis went away, and my dogs started putting the weight back on. 

I switched Cujo, and his coat is much better. 

Like it or not it was the food. 

you know what your dog food review says of Canidae, eventhough there have been a lot of issues with it, we still feel it deserves five stars. Haaack tui! 

The problem with your dog food review is that it can only get you part way. It can tell you what is in there and in what order of weight. 

That canidae with all the meat sources: chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, rice flour, etc. All of those can be 10%. You could have a whole lot more grains than meat. But it gets the stars. Fine even if dogs are getting sick on it. Even if Canidae admits that GSDs and Great Danes have problems on it. Whatever.

Also, looking at the ingredient list cannot tell you the quality of the ingredients. If the food has any form of corn in it, it is assumed that the quality of the corn is yuck and all the rest of the ingredients are by association, yuck. 

Chicken Soup -- yet another Diamond Concoction. Here is where your dog food review fails too. Looking at the ingredient list does not tell you what tests are done on every lot, does not tell you how repeatable or reproduceable the manufacturer is, how many of the previous recalls they were involved in. 

My first requirement for a food is that it is NOT produced by Diamond.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> Wow, where did you get kangaroo??


I've actually eaten kangaroo. It was the most delicious thing ever until I got sick an hour later because I was so upset about what I ate. There's a restaurant near me the specializes in rare food.

Sorry, back on topic


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I have an online friend in australia. She feeds a lot of kangaroo meat to her cats, it's as cheap for them as chicken is for us.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Lin said:


> I have an online friend in australia. She feeds a lot of kangaroo meat to her cats, it's as cheap for them as chicken is for us.


I have tried to feed it a few times and my dog and cats will not touch the stuff! I was paying $9 a Kilo (2.2 #) for human grade roo. Meat in general is so expensive here


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A hydrolyzed protein diet saved one dog and my hair until we could sort things out with my old allergic dog.

Talk about expensive. Talk about ingredients I did not want to feed, but I would rather have a happy dog fed the wrong stuff than a miserable one. 

I wound up on a salmon based diet but he died of hemangiosarcome before he developed an intolerance to that.

You know out of the dogs I have owned (signature) he was the only one with food allergies so I feel blessed in that regard and strongly believe it was related to his genetics.


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

Sorry I'm jumping in this conversation kind of late. I've been surprised and disappointed at how little vets know about nutrition. Many of the vets in my area fully support and back Iams & Hills. Not that they are the worst products in the world ... but there is most certainly better and as a veterinarian I would expect them to know of some of the brands. They contain much better ingredients and are overall healthier for our dogs. 

I had my Lab puppy on California Natural and a vet I saw suggested I switch to Science Diet because a.) she hadn't heard of the brand b.) she was suggesting I was getting sucked into a bad dog food by the word "natural." We were seeing her because he had eaten a sock .... not because of any other problems with food. He's still on C&N because it's one of the only foods he does well on.

I fully understand that vets are jacks of all trades-I'm heading to vet school in the fall. I think that understanding nutrition is vital to being a good veterinarian though. Just my opinion.


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## BRITTani (Feb 10, 2011)

All I know about my previous vet is that he informed me that her itching WAS due to her being on Blue Buffalo and I *must* switch to Pedigree if I wanted it to stop...I couldn't believe my ears


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

BRITTani said:


> All I know about my previous vet is that he informed me that her itching WAS due to her being on Blue Buffalo and I *must* switch to Pedigree if I wanted it to stop...I couldn't believe my ears


Which Blue Buffalo formula were/are you feeding?

Some dogs are allergic to chicken and some have problems with grains.

My boy used to have flakes but when I switched him to grain free his flakes disappeared.


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## BRITTani (Feb 10, 2011)

She is on the large breed puppy, her dad has an issue with chicken and she does have some flaking which is why I'm switching her to Solid Gold Wolf cub, just in case. I can't think that Pedigree would be any better though.


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## KatMalone (Apr 28, 2011)

The very first time I took my pup to the vet, when he was 8 weeks old. (It was that late because I literally got him the day before.) The vet tech asked me what I was feeding my puppy. And I explained that I am weening him off Pedigree and on to Blue Buffalo, by feeding half and half, and that I feed him three times a day. He told me that they usually recommend puppy food packages, but he thought what I was doing was great. I definitely think there is a difference, I am actually going to be switching him to Orijen soon.


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