# Owners of Fearful/Aggressive Dogs: Did you test pups?



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I am curious if the owners of fearful/aggressive/nervous dogs (obtained as pups) ever had tests (eg Volhard or PAWS) done on their pups. If so, did pups give any indication of nerviness, fear, etc?

Do people generally seem to be surprised that their dogs have exhibited these traits or does it seem to be so common that it is thought of as "part of the breed"?

How much of the exhibited nervousness/fear/aggression would you guess is "nature" and how much "nurture"?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Are you only referring to fear-aggression and reactivity or ALL types of aggression? 

My dog does have aggressive tendencies. He has not hesitated to use his teeth when the situation calls for it, but his aggression is NOT fear based. 

FWIW we did Volhard's PAT on him when he was a wee thing. He scored mostly 2s:



> Also has leadership aspirations
> May be hard to manage and has the capacity to bite
> Has lots of self-confidence
> Should not be placed into an inexperienced home
> ...


And no... I am not surprised that I have a GSD prone to aggression. I did get a GSD after all - they should exhibit the instincts for protection. Dogs protect and defend via aggression. Quite frankly I would be more disappointed if I had a GSD without an aggressive bone in his body then one that needed to be managed more than your typical golden. 

Now fear based aggression or reactivity is a totally different boat. I wouldn't wish a dog like that on my worst enemy. Horrid to live with that's why it is REALLY REALLY important to get pups from good breeders who focus on nerve strength. Especially with dogs like GSDs that have more potential for aggression.

I'd say it is 99% genetics


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Are you only referring to fear-aggression and reactivity or ALL types of aggression?
> 
> My dog does have aggressive tendencies. He has not hesitated to use his teeth when the situation calls for it, but his aggression is NOT fear based.
> 
> ...


I live with a fear aggressive/reactive dog. At home you would never know. But yes genetics. Nurture comes in play with how well she masks it in her safe environment. At home, even now out and about, you barely see it. Strangers come and go, pet her, play with her. 
At 6 months or so she was afraid of animals, birds, people, noise, signs, lights, traffic, trees. At about 1.5 she started attacking everything that scared her, which was actually something of an improvement over cowering, drooling, moaning, freezing and shaking. I guess I am worse then your worst enemy? Lol


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I live with a fear aggressive/reactive dog. At home you would never know. But yes genetics. Nurture comes in play with how well she masks it in her safe environment. At home, even now out and about, you barely see it. Strangers come and go, pet her, play with her.
> At 6 months or so she was afraid of animals, birds, people, noise, signs, lights, traffic, trees. At about 1.5 she started attacking everything that scared her, which was actually something of an improvement over cowering, drooling, moaning, freezing and shaking. I guess I am worse then your worst enemy? Lol


I feel your pain. My boy has gotten progressively worse in the fear aggression department over the years. I‘ve had fear reactive/aggressive dogs before him, all what I considered manageable. But him? Yeah. Not so much. I’ve accepted that fact that he is basically an at home dog, and when I DO take him out and about, it is an exercise in patience and management to ensure that we don’t run into any triggers that will set him off or make him shake violently while pancaked to the ground. I didn’t do the Volhard test on him, and I’m certain his breeder didn’t either. But to the OP, if the puppies you look at display behaviors such as trying to hide behind the breeder or furniture, or completely freaking out when they are separated from their littermates, save yourself a lifetime of management and walk away. Genetics are way stronger than “how you raise them”.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

With puppies, what you see is what you get. But seeing the puppies at home, in a familiar environment, surrounded by the social support of their littermates, you won't see the real pup. Bad enough if they display shyness, fear, avoidance in their own home, but to really test a puppy, they should be taken out to a new environment they have never been before, by themselves, and be tested by someone who is a stranger to them. 

Lots of people here have stories of going to see a litter, picking the most active, confident, friendly pup, only to have same pup turn into a ball of fearfulness that runs and hides for a full week once they get it home.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have 3. They are all very similar, but the youngest has it in him to be more protective. They all had the same training, so it has to be genetics. They are all close to me, but with him it's different. I can't really put my finger on it, I just know that he becomes completely on guard when strange people come within a couple feet of me. I take him out and about, but he is muzzled at the vet and places like a pet store. These places people seem not to pay attention and will walk up without any thought. When he was younger he would growl if they were a couple feet away, now he will sit there just staring, but if they come closer he will give warning. You keep coming and he will go for it. I have witnessed him allowing a small child approach without issue and kiss the child, the same day some taller teenager came running at us and he did lunge at him. He doesn't bark at people either. He is quiet in the car and doesn't make a move if I'm talking to someone through the window or a drive thru. His whole facial expression changes, I know when he might react. I do not allow people to pet him and they seem to understand. Now if he knows you, he absolutely LOVES you. 

There was an home invasion not that far from me a couple days ago at 5am, this is the same time I'm taking trash out, starting the car, etc. APOLLO comes with me as of now to do these things and I leave the door open so he can watch the car. My gut tells me he would not hesitate to go after someone that might try hurting me, I am his world and past experiences point to what he would do. With the other two, I can't get a read on what they would do. They are silent and silently state/stalk people they don't lnow. I go back and forth with those two because of how neutral they are. I pray I never have to find out.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, I adopted a Shiloh shepherd, which is a German shepherd with some flock guardian blood and malamute/wolf blood mixed in.

She did great on the puppy testing. She wanted to play with the tug, and showed no fear of loud noises. When I got her home, we'd go on long walks through the bush with my other dogs, and she never did more than tilt her head when she heard someone shooting their deer rifle during hunting season. She kissed babies in strollers, and stood and watched heavy equipment excavating a hole, and never showed any fear.

Then winter descended (I was living in N. Ontario at the time) and we didn't get out very much. I had to dig steps to get into the dog yard - that's how deep the snow was!

At last, spring came. I was walking along the main street, and my bestest friend was walking towards us. This was the first person she'd met when I brought her home, someone she'd seen numerous times.

She saw them coming, and tried to bolt. If she'd been able to slip her collar, I think she would have run home. 

I soon found out she was scared of nearly everything: kids, bicycles, trains, small dogs/puppies and most strangers. She wouldn't take a treat from a stranger, and when I sat at a table at the main street coffee shop, she'd do her best to hide under my chair.

Some pretty intensive training and socialization followed. She made some small improvements, but by 2 years of age, she was still not able to pass a basic temperament test, and she was obviously never going to be the dog I'd hoped for. I rehomed her to someone who was happy just to have her as a pet and companion.

What was to blame? Well, I think it was genetics. There were an awful lot of other owners complaining about their fearful Shilohs on the Shiloh forums! The genetics behind these dogs are mainly American show lines, and they can have soft, fearful temperaments. I also wonder about the wolf blood in the malamute. The fearfulness started somewhere around 6 to 9 months. That's the age when a wolf would be maturing and learning to be more independent from its parents. A wolf that doesn't have any caution or suspicion of strange things is pretty soon a dead wolf.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My gal is the smallest of a litter of 11. While the other pups all attacked my shoelaces like rascally little scamps, my pup was more thoughtful. She didn't cower and hide but she didn't dive right in, either. I took her out of her pen and tried a number of little things and she seemed curious, watchful and not fearful but not impulsive, either. I needed a more laid back pup and asked the breeder if I should choose her. I was told she still was a scamp. She just chose her play attacks on her litter mates for when they were sleepy.

I took her home and she was a brave little girl, charming, easy with my elderly mom and a scamp with my daughter in law. Perfect. The she hit her possible 2nd fear period after her first heat. She became much more cautious with people. No idea why. Genetics? Maybe but I have gone on walks with one of her litter mates a few times and her sister is bold and brash like a young GSD should be. 

An aside, I did frighten her when I moved a large plastic trash dumpster when she was tiny. It took a little desensitizing but she learned not to be afraid of them. She may never completely trust them, but she doesn't try to avoid them anymore. Other things that made me jump, like sudden noises, didn't bother her at all.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

With any of those tests, and even taking the puppies out of their comfort zone, its experience that matters when it comes to evaluating what you're seeing. I think that's a big disadvantage for you here. The sisters don't have any experience and no one knows what the dogs being bred are able to do, outside of their comfort zone. Even though there's no guarantee's with puppies, this litter doesn't help you with the odds at all. 

When I picked my dog from his litter, I was there a long time and I had seen them a couple of times. The only visible difference I could see in the whole litter was the one sister barely took her eyes off the breeder. She ended up his and still has that attention to him. What helped me though was his experience and what he had observed with the litter in different situations narrowed it down to 2 of them, and both of them turned out exactly like he said they would. The whole litter was, and is really consistent, but the details he could point out were so subtle then, I never would have known. 

With out that help, I think I'd just bring them over to your house at 7wks and see which ones will explore, not panic if you make a loud noise, and play with you.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max has aggression in him and has gotten into a little trouble in adolescent years. He is a dog who is protective and seems to like trouble. So I learned I had to be consistent with training and had seek help for off leash work. He has strong prey drive and strong herding instincts he loves to keep his people together. When my nephew who was little ran away from a group walk on the trails max would bound over and cut him off and my nephew would turn right back around. He does not like other dogs seems to want to herd them away. 

As a puppy we had a a few pup we were allowed to choose from. Two were dark sable that was part of our choices. The other pups were a lot more outgoing as was the sable male. Max came up to us but was not overly friendly and went to lay down near his ****zu friend. We liked him though and choose him. 
When his mom came in the room and when she left through the doggy door max did cry for his momma the others did not seem to care. On the way home max vomited in the car and cried a lot. As soon as we got home Max was running around the house we took him outside and he was chasing leaves on a cold winter windy night.
The trees were swaying in the wind like crazy. I had the door open he could of ran back in the house but he walked over to me and sat down just watching the trees sway crazily back and forth. It took him a few days to completely adjust. 

I would not say max has nerves of steel he can quietly worry in certain situations but he is not fearful-he does not like vets and he runs upstairs when I get the mail dremel but he tolerates these things without much protest. I can not get him to stop stealing things off the table. 
When we are out and max likes to to check people's eyes and wants to smell them as they walk by. If he knows he you he has to licks your face to find more about your day. If someone he sees as sketchy I can tell right away as he he more adamant of not keeping his eye off them. I do not allow strangers to pet him. I recently met my friend which max has not met at dunking donuts when I got out of the car and I told her to ignore him and we took a two minute walk and they quickly became really good friends. He would do anything to protect me as silly as that sounds it’s true a one track mind in that area. 

Over the summer the kids were picked up and two minutes later I heard a knock on the door I thought it was one of the kids and the dogs seemed to think the same. I opened the door allowing the dogs right their to greet them. It was a cop with the dogs half way out the door happily saying hello I got them back in. Since many houses are not numbered on the private road he was looking for another house. I can tell you I was relieved the dogs were happy to see him. I know they pick up quickly the different interactions at the door right away. He loves visitors that come over that are family and friends we put him away when service people come over. 

I like that he can be very charismatic and sweet, silly affectionate and sometimes obnoxious with his family but has a protective side with a seriousness.


----------



## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

My gsd is not reactive at all but she is fearful. Honestly you would never know in public unless you knew what to look for, or you reached out to pet her ( she would take a step back). She used to cower and not move when she saw dogs. She now loves dogs. She used to like people but not she doesn’t care for them. Her main trigger is if she is sitting and someone walks close and stares at her. If we are walking she is 100% fine. She is scared of a lot of moving objects. Scared of the blinds, her pen ‘moving’, drains. She has very very good recovery though so she is willing to go up to things she is scared of them or after something scared her. 

The signs were there all along I just wasn’t knowledgeable to notice them like I am now.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Okay, I adopted a Shiloh shepherd, which is a German shepherd with some flock guardian blood and malamute/wolf blood mixed in.
> 
> She did great on the puppy testing. She wanted to play with the tug, and showed no fear of loud noises. When I got her home, we'd go on long walks through the bush with my other dogs, and she never did more than tilt her head when she heard someone shooting their deer rifle during hunting season. She kissed babies in strollers, and stood and watched heavy equipment excavating a hole, and never showed any fear.
> 
> ...


Whose to blame -you are. Sure sounds you did your homework and choose real solid dog- I’m being facetious. It sounds like you have not made the smartest decision and at the same time blame the American showlines.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I had a very good reason for choosing a pup from this particular litter. The dam and the sire both belonged to a friend, and both had solid temperaments. Also the litter sister to the dam was one of the most amazing medical service dogs I've ever heard of, and I'd hoped to train this pup to be my hearing ear dog.

It was a huge disappointment to have her turn out so badly, especially after she did well on the puppy testing.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I had a very good reason for choosing a pup from this particular litter. The dam and the sire both belonged to a friend, and both had solid temperaments. Also the litter sister to the dam was one of the most amazing medical service dogs I've ever heard of, and I'd hoped to train this pup to be my hearing ear dog.
> 
> It was a huge disappointment to have her turn out so badly, especially after she did well on the puppy testing.


Isnt that one of the major complaints of the designer cross breeds...that there isn't consistency in the offspring


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> Whose to blame -you are. Sure sounds you did your homework and choose real solid dog- I’m being facetious. It sounds like you have not made the smartest decision and at the same time *blame the American showlines*.


Am lines catch more flack than they deserve imop. My girls are half asl and ive got no complaints. i can and do take them just about everywhere. All in all they have stable temperament and good nerves. They aren't the most attractive dogs (mine), but more importantly than that I can trust them.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I also have a dog that is half American show lines, and she has a rock-solid temperament. But the ASL show folks have neglected temperament in favour of dogs that can prance around the show ring looking pretty, so the breed has its share of spooky, timid dogs. Not all of them are that way, by any means. But if you looked at the Shiloh training forum during the time after I got this dog, nearly every single thread seemed to be about a Shiloh with fear issues. It was such a common topic that I actually made a list of the threads!

Gee, ya think they maybe had a problem?? As I said earlier, the genetics of these dogs was predominately ASL. Outcrosses were made to a malamute/wolf/GSD hybrid, a long haired German working line GSD, a white shepherd from Hoofprint Kennels, and a dog that was a registered GSD, but more than likely had some flock guardian blood from a mis-mating. The outcrosses were used for only a limited number of matings, so the gentics remained predominately American show line.

Scared of the Lawnmower!

Shyness with Strangers & Visitors in Home

Good High Value Treat-What it Means to Me & My Fearful Shiloh

Karen Pryor on, Fearful dogs.

Fearful Shiloh Question

Shiloh is stressed with noise

Dog is afraid of the Dark

Fear of Men, Children, or others

Book about Shy Dogs


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Fearful, nervy dogs can pop up in any lines. My boy is from working lines and I can guarantee all the ASL dogs I have met have stronger nerves than he does. I do think it’s unfair to blame the fear your Shiloh exhibited on the ASL part of its genetic makeup. I think anytime you try to invent a new breed from existing breeds that have wildly different temperaments, you’re going to end up with some messes. Look at the whole doodle craze... have you met many stable ones? I know I haven’t. I’m not necessarily going to blame the lines of poodles being used, or the lines of goldens/labs/aussies, either. The breeds are just so different, it’ll take many generations of culling and careful selection of “breedworthy” specimens before you see any uniformity in temperament.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I also have a dog that is half American show lines, and she has a rock-solid temperament. But the ASL show folks have neglected temperament in favour of dogs that can prance around the show ring looking pretty, so the breed has its share of spooky, timid dogs. Not all of them are that way, by any means. But if you looked at the Shiloh training forum during the time after I got this dog, nearly every single thread seemed to be about a Shiloh with fear issues. It was such a common topic that I actually made a list of the threads!
> 
> Gee, ya think they maybe had a problem?? As I said earlier, the genetics of these dogs was predominately ASL. Outcrosses were made to a malamute/wolf/GSD hybrid, a long haired German working line GSD, a white shepherd from Hoofprint Kennels, and a dog that was a registered GSD, but more than likely had some flock guardian blood from a mis-mating. The outcrosses were used for only a limited number of matings, so the gentics remained predominately American show line.
> 
> ...


I feel like you could find all these same threads on this forum, except by and large they'd be crappy pet bred dogs/ craigslist type dogs, not american showlines, because that's where the majority of people seem to get their dogs


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> But the ASL show folks have neglected temperament in favour of dogs that can prance around the show ring looking pretty, so the breed has its share of spooky, timid dogs.


Same can be said of WGSL... and it happens in WLs too... PLENTY of subpar WL dogs being bred because *black sable*!

It's not just an ASL issue. To insinuate such is offensive to ASL people. 



> As I said earlier, the genetics of these dogs was predominately ASL. Outcrosses were made to a malamute/wolf/GSD hybrid, a long haired German working line GSD, a white shepherd from Hoofprint Kennels, and a dog that was a registered GSD, but more than likely had some flock guardian blood from a mis-mating. The outcrosses were used for only a limited number of matings, so the gentics remained predominately American show line.


Considering the phenomenal failure of the vast majority of attempts to make breeds by reintroducing wolf genetics to domestic dogs, even many generation away from the initial outcross - I don't see why the assumption here is the faulty temperament is from the ASL


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I was asking more about fear-based aggression and reactivity. I accept that aggression is a good and desirable thing when directed appropriately. (I study martial arts so I accept that aggression is not a problem in and of itself, but misdirected or inappropriate aggression can be.)

Thanks!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Jenny720 said:


> Max came up to us but was not overly friendly and went to lay down near his ****zu friend.


LOLed when you self-censored the "shi't" out of "shi'tzu"! 
That's a handsome dog in the photo!!!!


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

[email protected], the board language censor does the censoring. Yesterday I tried to say my dog c o c k e d her head, and THAT got censored! I had to say 'tilted' instead!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> Sunsilver said:
> 
> 
> > But the ASL show folks have neglected temperament in favour of dogs that can prance around the show ring looking pretty, so the breed has its share of spooky, timid dogs.
> ...


when I read the post I thought, if there really is wolf genetics then that is the most likely explanation for fear and timidity. But I couldn't find anywhere that it stated what Shiloh were really mixed with to make them bigger, other than LGD type dogs.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Nigel- It happens often but there is rare mention of the faults and weakness that occur because of one tract minds in other lines. People with their own agendas can be found and exist not only in asl’s. 

Trace- thank you! it was autocorrected by the forum that way. It seems forums and little kids have a strong reaction when ****zus are mentioned- lol!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There seems to much more to breeding then to just have a nice dam and sire. Throwing wolf blood in the mix is easy to imagine the challenges in that.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Lol, the correct spelling is shih tzu


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

All pups in my litter tested just about the same. One turned out to be very social with people and unknown dogs. One is a very one-family/one handler dog and not a fan of any strangers. Differences didn't show up in the testing. Neither has any issues with loud noises, thunderstorms, tight spaces, separation anxiety, surfaces, or anything else like that. Just, one is social with unknown people and dogs, and one is not. 

As long as the dog is predictable, and super sweet with family, I'm OK with the management part of it. It's an unpredictable dog or one that is aggressive to his own family that I think is a real problem... but it can depend on the scenario. 

I won't do puppy testing with any "system" again, I found it useless, personally, and I know the pups better than anyone. I do test puppies, I just don't do the Volhard scoring rigidly, or go pay a puppy tester.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> Lol, the correct spelling is shih tzu


lol!!!! lol!!!! Okay rolling laughter! My bad!


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> Lol, the correct spelling is shih tzu


I thought about correcting them but I was having fun watching them get it sensored. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to spell it properly and realized why it was sensored. Lol

Anyway If I had tested Shadow at roughly seven weeks, I doubt I would have had any indication. At seven weeks she was a scrappy, adventurous little thing who was more apt to run toward a noise then away and would chase anything that moved.
Somewhere between 8 and 16 weeks she became the sweet little mess I have today.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Anyway If I had tested Shadow at roughly seven weeks, I doubt I would have had any indication. At seven weeks she was a scrappy, adventurous little thing who was more apt to run toward a noise then away and would chase anything that moved.
> 
> Somewhere between 8 and 16 weeks she became the sweet little mess I have today.



I’ve known Scarlet since she was 4 weeks old, and visited the litter a couple of times a week until I took her home at 9 weeks. At 17 months old, she’s the same dog, never varied one bit in temperament. Sassy. Pushy. Marches into a show ring like she owns it. I love that dog.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> when I read the post I thought, if there really is wolf genetics then that is the most likely explanation for fear and timidity. But I couldn't find anywhere that it stated what Shiloh were really mixed with to make them bigger, other than LGD type dogs.


The breed founder was getting 28 and 29 inch pure GSDs BEFORE she outcrossed. But yeah, the genetics of the giant malamute/GSD cross, named Secret Sampson Woo is a hotly debated topic. And there may have been other outcrosses no one was willing to owe up to. It's no secret Tina Barber had a fascination with wolves.

Are there good Shilohs out there? Certainly...just as there are many good ASL dogs!

Here's what I was hoping for...this dog was litter sister to my dog's mom. 




> The fact she medically alerts has made it harder for her. My every ache is something to tell me about.
> 
> At first she wanted to tell everyone in the doctor’s office all about theirs too, but I now have a none of your business command for her.
> 
> ...





> Lately with all the medical issues I have been having I have been feeling a little depressed and not going out as much as usual, but finally I had to run some errands. I decided to run as many of them as i could on the same day.
> 
> We were at our last stop, Walmart, and it was about 2 in the afternoon. Walmart was packed with people since it was the middle of the month. I had to wait for an electric cart to ride, as there was no way I was going to have Mai help to pull me in one of their wheelchairs, she does not have a pulling harness. Finally a cart came...
> 
> ...


Going to shut up now - I'm off topic, but I just wanted to explain why I got involved with a 'breed' no one likes!


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> The breed founder was getting 28 and 29 inch pure GSDs BEFORE she outcrossed.


Which is maybe a clue that she wasn't exactly focused on temperament. So probably not exactly the cream of the crop of ASL dogs. Painting all ASL dogs with a broad brush ("just bred to look pretty and trot around a ring, no care for temperament") is a pretty ignorant statement to make. The assertion that:

A. ASL genetics were what contributed to Shilohs, and
B. Shilohs have a lot of temperament issues, therefore
C. ASL dogs must have bad temperaments

is conceptually impoverished, and that's being generous.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Thank you for putting words in my mouth Watery Tart. :rolleyes2:

I also said:

I also have a dog that is half American show lines, and she has a rock-solid temperament. But the ASL show folks have neglected temperament in favour of dogs that can prance around the show ring looking pretty, so the breed has its share of spooky, timid dogs. *Not all of them are that way, by any means.
*
And: The genetics behind these dogs are mainly American show lines, and they can have soft, fearful temperaments. *I also wonder about the wolf blood in the malamute. *The fearfulness started somewhere around 6 to 9 months. That's the age when a wolf would be maturing and learning to be more independent from its parents. A wolf that doesn't have any caution or suspicion of strange things is pretty soon a dead wolf.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't cherry pick statements from my posts to make it look like I hate American show lines. That is just not true. I think Dallas was a wonderful dog, and keep looking longingly at the puppies certain breeders are producing. 

Tina wanted a dog that just about anyone could handle, so she did breed for softer, non-aggressive temperaments. Obviously, things went too far in that direction, but to say she didn't care about temperaments is not true.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Thank you for putting words in my mouth Watery Tart. :rolleyes2:
> 
> I also said:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you feel I am cherry picking. I would say the underlined text, which has been repeated more than once, are generalizations that stand on their own to make it look like the writer is not a fan of ASL dogs. It perpetuates the idea that ASL dogs are spooks because ASL breeders don't care, and it's certainly unfortunate.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I find this board to be so biased toward working lines and against show lines that I don't know what to believe. 

I don't know any ASL dogs. I've known some very nice wgsl, nice wls, and I am very happy with my white. I have met one Shiloh at trials who seems like a very nice dog. Very engaged with the handler and I have never noticed any reactivity to dogs or people. unscientifically speaking the dog has good energy...personality wise.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's one of my two females, an ASL/GSL cross:

Star of Hope vom Bayou Land

Scroll down, and you will see her doing bite work. She just turned 11, and is still very healthy and active. I like what the kennel her mother came from is producing - think they are good, solid dogs with good temperament. Her grandfather could work, too - had his first level certificate in herding.

In my opinion, she combines some of the best bloodlines from Germany and America. But I may be just a tad biased..


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I find this board to be so biased toward working lines and against show lines that I don't know what to believe.
> 
> I don't know any ASL dogs. I've known some very nice wgsl, nice wls, and I am very happy with my white. I have met one Shiloh at trials who seems like a very nice dog. Very engaged with the handler and I have never noticed any reactivity to dogs or people. unscientifically speaking the dog has good energy...personality wise.


Find some reputable breeders and go meet the asls and see if they are for you. I was familiar with american showlines. If I were not and stumbled upon this forum and knew nothing about them I be hesitant to even look at a american showline just by what is often said on this forum about them- which they are even spoken negatively about on this thread. Max an american showline is not crippled nor fearful or lazy. The exact opposite pushy forward, athletic and extremely focused when on task. He adjusts to any environment and incredible with our kids. We have small animals and despite his high prey drive his pack drive is very high and everyone peacefully coexists with supervision for safety -bird - chihuahua -bunny.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I believe pups are what you see is what you get. Max is a complete mommas boy. Luna was 12 weeks of age and she adapted to the house as soon as we brought her home with her first night in the crate without crying. She just blends in wherever we go.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Where is someone coming from when they say am lines have poor nerve/temperament? I believe some are implying Asl's do not have what it takes overall to do the sport (ipo). 

They're not bad dogs, but in general they lack the level of drive and resilience under pressure to perform the sport. Is this true? From what I'm seeing it is. Does this make them all nerve bags? No, I don't think so. I think this puts them on par with the many WL's and wgsl's which aren't cut out for it either and have been relegated to pet status which many people will agree can be one of the more important roles they fill.


----------



## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Not all GSDs are either ASL, GSL, or the different types of WLs. The majority of GSDs and the ones that create the bad reputations of the breed are BYB - that Craigslist; that my neighbor's dog had puppies. BYBs often have several generations of American bred dogs but that does not make them ASLs. Most of the ASL breeders that I know do not just show, they also participate in AKC tracking and obedience; or AKC herding. Possibly my sample size is limited and not generalizable. 

I like dogs in general and GSDs in particular so I used to go to AKC events just to watch, as well as to SV type events. You find dogs with decent temperaments in all venues. But these are dogs whose breeders take care to breed temperament that is at least acceptable as pets. The BYB does not even really know how to do that or with that as an intention. The intention is purely to make money; or several oops litters; just plain carelessness; or I want my children to have puppies; or my dogs are so pretty they must be bred; a lot of reasons but not the intent and the knowledge to produce excellent examples of the breed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Shepdad said:


> Not all GSDs are either ASL, GSL, or the different types of WLs. The majority of GSDs and the ones that create the bad reputations of the breed are BYB - that Craigslist; that my neighbor's dog had puppies. BYBs often have several generations of American bred dogs but that does not make them ASLs. Most of the ASL breeders that I know do not just show, they also participate in AKC tracking and obedience; or AKC herding. Possibly my sample size is limited and not generalizable. I like dogs in general and GSDs in particular so I used to go to AKC events just to watch, as well as to SV type events. You find dogs with decent temperaments in all venues. But these are dogs whose breeders take care to breed temperament that is at least acceptable as pets. The BYB does not even really know how to do that or with that as an intention. The intention is purely to make money; or several oops litters; just plain carelessness; or I want my children to have puppies; or my dogs are so pretty they must be bred; a lot of reasons but not the intent and the knowledge to produce excellent examples of the breed.


Well said. 

I disagree with others regarding this forum bashing ASL vs WGSL vs WL GSDs. What I do see as a whole is this forum bashing ASL/WGSL/WL vs backyard bred in favor of BYB.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Shepdad said:
> 
> 
> > Not all GSDs are either ASL, GSL, or the different types of WLs. The majority of GSDs and the ones that create the bad reputations of the breed are BYB - that Craigslist; that my neighbor's dog had puppies. BYBs often have several generations of American bred dogs but that does not make them ASLs. Most of the ASL breeders that I know do not just show, they also participate in AKC tracking and obedience; or AKC herding. Possibly my sample size is limited and not generalizable. I like dogs in general and GSDs in particular so I used to go to AKC events just to watch, as well as to SV type events. You find dogs with decent temperaments in all venues. But these are dogs whose breeders take care to breed temperament that is at least acceptable as pets. The BYB does not even really know how to do that or with that as an intention. The intention is purely to make money; or several oops litters; just plain carelessness; or I want my children to have puppies; or my dogs are so pretty they must be bred; a lot of reasons but not the intent and the knowledge to produce excellent examples of the breed.
> ...


wait, you see people bashing reputable bred dogs and saying BYB dogs are better?


I know there is a lot of "I don't need a show dog so I will just buy from my neighbors accidental litter"


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> wait, you see people bashing reputable bred dogs and saying BYB dogs are better?
> 
> 
> I know there is a lot of "I don't need a show dog so I will just buy from my neighbors accidental litter"


Yes, I see it ALL the time. 

Just want to add that I have owned and met many BYB and they can be great dogs, I am not bashing them per se.

What I am saying is that many people who own BYB dogs not only present them as the perfect GSD (nothing wrong with loving your dog), but they very clearly bash well bred dogs of any of the aforementioned lines on this forum with obvious contempt. Go ahead and think the world of your dog, but don't bash my breed or my dogs and it happens here more often than you think. Read the forum with a different eye and you will see what I mean.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well said.
> 
> I disagree with others regarding this forum bashing ASL vs WGSL vs WL GSDs. What I do see as a whole is this forum bashing ASL/WGSL/WL vs backyard bred in favor of BYB.


What I would like to see are a lot more open minds and a whole lot more of "judge the dog in front of you". Great dogs come from everywhere. A specific breed or line or type does not own the title of best ever. 

I have met good dogs from everywhere and my personal preferences should not factor into that. I love Shadow to bits, but she is a horrible example of the breed, and I am not stupid or small minded enough to dispute it


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Shepdad said:


> Not all GSDs are either ASL, GSL, or the different types of WLs. The majority of GSDs and the ones that create the bad reputations of the breed are BYB - that Craigslist; that my neighbor's dog had puppies. BYBs often have several generations of American bred dogs but that does not make them ASLs. Most of the ASL breeders that I know do not just show, they also participate in AKC tracking and obedience; or AKC herding. Possibly my sample size is limited and not generalizable.
> 
> I like dogs in general and GSDs in particular so I used to go to AKC events just to watch, as well as to SV type events. You find dogs with decent temperaments in all venues. But these are dogs whose breeders take care to breed temperament that is at least acceptable as pets. The BYB does not even really know how to do that or with that as an intention. The intention is purely to make money; or several oops litters; just plain carelessness; or I want my children to have puppies; or my dogs are so pretty they must be bred; a lot of reasons but not the intent and the knowledge to produce excellent examples of the breed.


I tend to agree your more apt to run into issues when breeding haphazardly such as the case with bybs, but even then how many of those pups actually have serious issues? I don't know this answer, I can only draw from my own experiences and I don't believe it's as bad as is sometimes claimed.

Look at the people buying bybs, most are ignorant of the breed. I included myself in this group 7+ years ago when I got my byb girls. Ive always trained my previous dogs, but it's been limited to a few OB classes. With my gsds I became more aware of just how important training is and it has been on going. Someone posted the statistics on the number dogs receiving training in the US and its extremely low. You combine gsds, lack of training with clueless owners and your gonna have problems regardless of lines. 

My girl Zoe is a byb, half asl/half wgwl bred out of convenience of availability. By some accounts she should be a complete nutter and early on I kind of thought she was, she is not. I learned to work with her and found a great dog who is very biddable and eager to please. The feedback I get from people I respect has been mostly positive. She leaks and is a bit hectic, but not so much so that's it's a big deal. She's a go anywhere dog I can trust. Her trips to Home Depot or Lowes are typically uneventful with the recent exception of a woman lifting Zoe's lip to loudly exclaim "she has a metal tooth!" I knew the woman was petting her as I talked to the clerk, I was not expecting a dental exam.:wink2: Just the same it was a non issue. 

Genetic problems get mentioned often, however the ownership/lack of training seldom is. I suspect there are plenty of bybs out there that are fine dogs and would make good pets, but often enough they are at a disadvantage due to ownership


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I can' t help but wonder- and this is not directed at you Nigel

If people owning BYB GSDs who think they are wonderful and ideal also just don't know what the heck they are talking about. 

People with fearful dogs who think they are "protective" because they bark at everything... for example
Just a thought


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I can' t help but wonder- and this is not directed at you Nigel
> 
> If people owning BYB GSDs who think they are wonderful and ideal also just don't know what the heck they are talking about.
> 
> ...


It's true to a point. Most owners of BYB pups have no clue what a well bred GSD should be. And they don't care, they want an awesome dog that will bark at the doorbell and play with the kids. But I have had countless poorly bred GSD's through my house and surprisingly few "problem" dogs. What I have noted is that the somewhat buried herding instinct seems highly visible in most BYB dogs. It's very odd.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sabis mom said:


> It's true to a point. Most owners of BYB pups have no clue what a well bred GSD should be. And they don't care, they want an awesome dog that will bark at the doorbell and play with the kids. But I have had countless poorly bred GSD's through my house and surprisingly few "problem" dogs. What I have noted is that the somewhat buried herding instinct seems highly visible in most BYB dogs. It's very odd.


I saw it mentioned somewhere that backyard bred GSDs might be a source for buried treasure so to speak. That there might be something great there that wasn't wrecked by some of the extreme breeding that has ocured in the "lines"

An interesting thought. Dont' remember where I read it


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> [email protected], the board language censor does the censoring. Yesterday I tried to say my dog c o c k e d her head, and THAT got censored! I had to say 'tilted' instead!


 Really, no common-sense censorship? Great to know. I'll have to see what I can get away with just because.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Really, no common-sense censorship? Great to know. I'll have to see what I can get away with just because.


Please don’t do that. It makes more work for the moderators and is a good way to get yourself a suspension...


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I can' t help but wonder- and this is not directed at you Nigel
> 
> If people owning BYB GSDs who think they are wonderful and ideal also just don't know what the heck they are talking about.
> 
> ...


There are Facebook groups full of this thinking and it's not isolated to byb owners. There are some people that feel that because they've paid an absorbent amount of money, imported or got it from breeder xyz that this ensures their dog is the best of the bestist, :smile2:


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A lot of those Facebook in the dog groups are off putting and I find it hard to even read some of the stuff. It’s okay to think your own dog is perfect but also need to be aware of reality and their weakness. No dog is perfect. Some people don’t even leave the yard with their dogs. Going out in public does require a clear ahead and with training to help them use their head. What we do under pressure shows us who we are and the same with dogs and that is often seen away from the house out of the their safety zone and out in the world where many situations can be unpredictable and sometimes uncertain how they can be handled. Even in the house where I have kids and kids of all ages visit who can be unprediabtable. I have dogs who will be occasionally disturbed when sleeping , stepped on , fallen on - know when rough housing is just that, not be put off by kids screaming like banshees. My 13 year son fell off the couch on Luna who was sleeping the other day- she just got up and moved. My mom stepped up max leg by accident he did not protest one bit. All requires clear heads and stability.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Seven or eight years ago, a friend in Kentucky asked me to help find one of his friends a puppy for SAR.....another friends male had sired a litter a couple of hundred miles east of me and I talked to the breeder, who was a police K9 officer who raved about a black and tan puppy...the dam was a V IPO KKL daughter of a very big name male, the sire had or would shortly win a huge regional...so these were far from BYB puppies on paper!

he sire owner told me there were 2 left, a black and a black and tan...the buyer preferred the black and tan....the breeder seriously was impressed by the black and tan...

I tested the BT pup and within minutes handed her back with "No thanks!".....environmentally hysterical...showed tons of drive with breeder - but to me, I saw strong insecurity as well....I then tested the pure black and saw what I wanted and over the protests of the breeder, bought the black female......

The black female, Mitzi, is a certifed SAR dog, made a News worthy find at 10 months prior to certifying out of sheer frustration of the SAR team letting her try....4 year old assumed abducted because of the proximity of a convicted child molestor......child slipped out of house and was stuck in a berry patch, sleeping less that 1/4 mile from home

The black and tan went to a girl who trains, who washed her out, then 2 or 3 other homes....tons and tons of drive, but fearful of new environments...she became a "shop dog" at a business owned by someone I know and is relatively stable within that controlled environment, is fine with the people she knows and even customers coming in as she is NOT tied to a box or anything!!!! But the insecurity and fear ??? I see it in her pedigree, have seen the same in her maternal half siblings as well as progeny/grandprogeny of her dam's sire....a small percentage of very nervy, fearful dogs....

It is not just BYB who cannot evaluate puppies.....buyers need to understand the nuances of a breeder's experience and knowledge, because puppy tests are only as good as the people performing them.

Lee


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Yep, the illusion of the almighty protector. Reality is dog is scared. Stomp a foot and most will scurry away. Had one guy tell me that his dog was pure protection dog because he does not like any men. Any man comes to his house the dog is losing his mind. He even described the dog barking, hackles up, two steps forward then backing way up as the dog taunting the men. I said OK, are you sure it's just not fear and the dog presenting this big I'll kill you act in order to create and keep distance between himself and the men he's scared of. Guy said nope he bit my friend in the face. And he knows my friend. I said OK, tell me that story. He said friend came over. Dog knows friend so he didn't go real crazy. They were sitting in living room friend walks to bathroom dog growls. Friend stops leans over the dog and says it's alright. As he does dog bites friend in the face then runs into his crate. Friend gets 18 stitches. 
I said so Friend gets 18 stitches dog gets rewarded for fear biting by safely retreating to his crate. He called me a bad name and stopped talking to me.
I have left all of the German Shepherd Facebook groups except for the the ones directly related to IPO. I couldn't handle the stupidity I read one guy tell another guy that his intact male and female would not mate because they were brother and sister from same litter. And the dude was like OK, I won't waste money on spay or neuter then. Stuff like this is half of the people on them. 
OP's original question. I doubt that most have done any actual testing before getting a fearful pup. Had they the dog would have shown itself and they would have probably not gotten the pup. Responsible breeders should be testing and culling pups that show extreme fear.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Seven or eight years ago, a friend in Kentucky asked me to help find one of his friends a puppy for SAR.....another friends male had sired a litter a couple of hundred miles east of me and I talked to the breeder, who was a police K9 officer who raved about a black and tan puppy...the dam was a V IPO KKL daughter of a very big name male, the sire had or would shortly win a huge regional...so these were far from BYB puppies on paper!
> 
> he sire owner told me there were 2 left, a black and a black and tan...the buyer preferred the black and tan....the breeder seriously was impressed by the black and tan...
> 
> ...


A good point!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Yep, the illusion of the almighty protector. Reality is dog is scared. Stomp a foot and most will scurry away. Had one guy tell me that his dog was pure protection dog because he does not like any men. Any man comes to his house the dog is losing his mind. He even described the dog barking, hackles up, two steps forward then backing way up as the dog taunting the men. I said OK, are you sure it's just not fear and the dog presenting this big I'll kill you act in order to create and keep distance between himself and the men he's scared of. Guy said nope he bit my friend in the face. And he knows my friend. I said OK, tell me that story. He said friend came over. Dog knows friend so he didn't go real crazy. They were sitting in living room friend walks to bathroom dog growls. Friend stops leans over the dog and says it's alright. As he does dog bites friend in the face then runs into his crate. Friend gets 18 stitches.
> I said so Friend gets 18 stitches dog gets rewarded for fear biting by safely retreating to his crate. He called me a bad name and stopped talking to me.
> I have left all of the German Shepherd Facebook groups except for the the ones directly related to IPO. I couldn't handle the stupidity I read one guy tell another guy that his intact male and female would not mate because they were brother and sister from same litter. And the dude was like OK, I won't waste money on spay or neuter then. Stuff like this is half of the people on them.
> OP's original question. I doubt that most have done any actual testing before getting a fearful pup. Had they the dog would have shown itself and they would have probably not gotten the pup. Responsible breeders should be testing and culling pups that show extreme fear.


Yeah it’s hard to me to read some Facebook stuff. Right away you can see the people who have their marbles and don’t. grew up with a dog he made a lot of noise if someone was on his property he had a real dark face and people were easily put off by him. I loved that dog he was a love and not a fighter even though protective of his own property -a snowball fight got out of hand with neighbors and did not become fun and someone entered the house and teddy took off with one stomp and a snowball thrown at him and he took off and hid under the bed. Which at the time I was a kid and utterly disappointed but it could of ended up in major law suit if he was a dog that would fight back if something did happen now that I look at it back then. a dog who can bite and a dog who is trained to bite that can really can do major damage there comes a big sense of responsibility. My friends gsd lab mix a backyard bred dog who did attack a man trying to break into a their home through a window he broke. She rescued us a few times when we were out and she was no spook either. She was another reason why I wanted a german Shepherd. I think of her always when they say look at the dog in front of you.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

When I look at pups, most often I am drawn to the little rebels. I like the ones who march to the beat of their own drum. I like the ones that while wander off to explore on their own and chase and bite. I like the ones that react with curiousity to strange or loud sounds, and swagger about with confidence. But that is because those are my preferences. I also like a strong reaction to food offered and a willingness to follow me. I dislike the quiet ones that hide or just want to cuddle. 
Having never had the privilege of choosing a dog for me, my experience is limited. But of the litters I raised "my pups" seem to be the ones that settle in well, and take well to training for work.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have a dog right now "Apollo" that makes a lot of noise if someone new comes around. The only reason he doesn't turn tail and run instead of going forward is because Rosko and Athena progress forward. If me and Apollo are out together he shows himself. He is getting better, he can ignore if he is ignored. Too much eye contact, verbal recognition of him he's like see ya. Environmentally, other animals he is sound its just humans he has fear of. Lack of socialization as a young pup coupled by physical abuse by the first guy who had him is a lot of it. I always said a stronger dog genetically should have overcame that with no issues but my TD and others have said that even the strongest dogs genetically would have had a hard time not being super suspicious of new people after I tell them his story. I think that a lot of dogs probably have similar stories to his. Creating fearful dogs out of dogs that could have been just fine. Maybe there should be a test for the humans that want a dog to go along with testing the pups.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

People can be cruel. 
I’m sure there are people who even mess there dogs up accidently to a degree or a miscommunication. For example max has a high prey drive he is fine with all our small animals- bird bunny chihuahua. Our bird is often with us out of the cage with us and of course supervised. We have a very spooky and skittish cat that rarely comes around with the dogs around. It took me a long time for max to leave her alone in part because she is not around much. Then we got Luna it took me a awhile but not so long to leave the cat alone. I remember awhile back-Luna started to bark at the cat as she peeked her head out of the cat door. and max corrected Luna for it- I just said good boy max and right after that max started chasing the cat again when he has been completely ignoring the cat. He thought I gave him permission to act on his own accord I suppose being an opportunist he is. My mistake.or a miscommunication some how. I messed that up and started back at square 1.

So I remember my friend’s dog I mentioned above - was mauled as a young pup- I mean the pup had to be at least 10 weeks old -thinking back younger. the neighbors dog came Flying out of the house grabbed her by her neck and started violently shaking her. My mom and dad came running out of the house I don’t remember how it was broken up but is still a vision hard to forget. She never had issues with dogs after all that. Maybe because she had some positive experiences soon after that with dogs. She was overly submissive to my friends father the owner and she used to submisselvly pee when she greeted him. I know he was strict and could be mean but she had quite an allegiance to him. Sometimes I think if she did not protect the family from an intruder that night he may of drowned her. He turned out to be a coward himself.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

GypsyGhost said:


> Please don’t do that. It makes more work for the moderators and is a good way to get yourself a suspension...


 Just seems like there should be an allowance made for... (poop)zu because it's not an actual expletive, just part of a recognized breed name. Or other verbs that have nothing to do with euphemisms for human anatomy, y'know?

Is there a notification I didn't see before that alerts people when they use a prohibited word? I had no idea that particular breed names were not getting past the censors.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

If you spell it properly Shih Tzu....


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Just seems like there should be an allowance made for... (poop)zu because it's not an actual expletive, just part of a recognized breed name. Or other verbs that have nothing to do with euphemisms for human anatomy, y'know?
> 
> Is there a notification I didn't see before that alerts people when they use a prohibited word? I had no idea that particular breed names were not getting past the censors.


When you spell shih tzu properly, nothing gets censored. So no worries there.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Seven or eight years ago, a friend in Kentucky asked me to help find one of his friends a puppy for SAR.....another friends male had sired a litter a couple of hundred miles east of me and I talked to the breeder, who was a police K9 officer who raved about a black and tan puppy...the dam was a V IPO KKL daughter of a very big name male, the sire had or would shortly win a huge regional...so these were far from BYB puppies on paper!
> 
> he sire owner told me there were 2 left, a black and a black and tan...the buyer preferred the black and tan....the breeder seriously was impressed by the black and tan...
> 
> ...



Yes, this. Looking back, I now know I should have walked away from my nervy boy instead of taking him home. I was new to GSDs and had no reason at that point not to trust his breeder. But I can tell you now that if he was an example of solid nerve at 9 weeks old for his breeder, well, his breeder doesn’t understand what solid nerve is. It’s been a hard lesson for me, one I wouldn’t wish on anyone.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We all know how to spell shih tzu now! Saying it correctly now that’s next because I always said it the way i spelled it here lol! I know some people’s last names that are spelled correctly and are words that would be blanked out in different languages because of the meaning.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Jenny720 said:


> We all know how to spell shih tzu now! Saying it correctly now that’s next because I always said it the way i spelled it here lol!


 AHA! I have to put that "h" in there! I mis-spelled it before!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > We all know how to spell shih tzu now! Saying it correctly now that’s next because I always said it the way i spelled it here lol!
> ...


Yes I like to see shih tzu used in a spelling bee lol!!!


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Be especially sure to put the 'h' in there if you've got a designer dog - a poodle bred to a shih tzu, or you could REALLY be putting your foot in it! :wink2:


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

It’s pronounced “she tzoo”. I groom a million of them!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> It’s pronounced “she tzoo”. I groom a million of them!


I can tell you a handful of people who own these dogs can not pronounce this name right so I don’t feel to bad lol!


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Half our customers can’t pronounce it. You wouldn’t believe some of the weird pronunciations of breeds we hear. Weimerheimer, dashhound. We jokingly call Pomeranians “pomergeraniums”, lol.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Sunsilver said:


> I also have a dog that is half American show lines, and she has a rock-solid temperament. But the ASL show folks have neglected temperament in favour of dogs that can prance around the show ring looking pretty, so the breed has its share of spooky, timid dogs. Not all of them are that way, by any means. But if you looked at the Shiloh training forum during the time after I got this dog, nearly every single thread seemed to be about a Shiloh with fear issues. It was such a common topic that I actually made a list of the threads!
> 
> Gee, ya think they maybe had a problem?? As I said earlier, the genetics of these dogs was predominately ASL. Outcrosses were made to a malamute/wolf/GSD hybrid, a long haired German working line GSD, a white shepherd from Hoofprint Kennels, and a dog that was a registered GSD, but more than likely had some flock guardian blood from a mis-mating. The outcrosses were used for only a limited number of matings, so the gentics remained predominately American show line.
> 
> ...


Aren't Shiloh dogs part wolf? That sounds like wolfdog shyness to me.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nurse Bishop, if you go back and read the whole thread, you'll see there's some speculation that the giant malamute Tina outcrossed to had more wolf in him than she let on!

Some even speculated there was a full blooded wolf somewhere in the Shiloh family tree. Sampson's actual pedigree was a closely kept secret - probably why she named him Secret Samson-Woo! (He tended to 'woo' rather than bark. Hmm...)


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Those of you who jump in to defend the American show line dogs: how many of you have been in the show ring and have witnessed what goes on?

Here's the unvarnished truth about them from someone who has bred multiple litters and titled multiple dogs in both the AKC and CKC show ring, going back several decades:



> The American GSD is bred to no standard other than front shoulder reach. I have put majors on dogs running hysterically from my footsteps. Bred to a top GSD that was not strong enough to stand on his rear and had to be supported by owner. The flakier they are, the harder they run, the higher they place.
> 
> The German Dogs {SL} can also be weak in character. But at least they have to show it in public.
> 
> The difference is that absolutely no attention is given to character of the American GSD for placement, the German Dog, no matter how weak, must pass the test in public and everyone can decide for them self.


I know a number of people who have left the breed due to the above. The person who wrote this is one of them. He now has German show line dogs.

It's this type of intensive focus on extreme structure for the specialty show ring that ruins a dog breed. It's why the film "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" became so controversial. It's also what causes people to favour backyard breeders over show breeders. Unfortunately, most backyard breeders haven't a clue what they are doing. They don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the different lines, and they usually don't do any health testing. You may get a good dog from them, you may not. 

A good breeder focuses on temperament as well as structure. A good breeder realizes the GSD was bred to be a working breed, and works them in a performance venue such as tracking, herding or obedience. Take a look at the top ASL German shepherds and tell me if you see any performance titles:

Westminster Kennel Club German Shepherd Dogs Breed Results | FOX Sports

There are good ASL breeders out there, but there are too darn few of them. Unfortunately, the prestige of winning a Best In Show seems to trump the effort it takes to raise a dog that is sound in both mind and body and can actually work.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’m getting ready for work right now, so don’t have time to write much. But yeah, I show. My champion girl is 8 years old today. I have a 17 month old girl that I just started showing. I’ve bred one litter, there were 5 puppies, one who has been on a SAR team for quite some time. 

I’ll come back here later this morning, and actually reply to this.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Those of you who jump in to defend the American show line dogs: how many of you have been in the show ring and have witnessed what goes on?
> 
> Here's the unvarnished truth about them from someone who has bred multiple litters and titled multiple dogs in both the AKC and CKC show ring, going back several decades:
> 
> ...


Im a pet owner who owns a american showline and dabbles in certain sports for fun. Max is very capable. I have seen many asl out there competing in all kinds of sports. I know people have limited time and money and just prefer to show then do obedience work. There are people that finish their dogs and then title their dogs. There are people who do both. I have been to a few local shows to watch for fun. I have grown up with a american show kennel down the block. I saw enough to have wanted a american showlines having had a working line was aware of the difference but never of such a deep divide. I believed I was not capable of training a working line from a pup but i don’t see the differences to be so great in my opinion and experience. Each line has challenges and because of that have certain stigmas attatched to each. People have to do their homework and find and trust reputable breeders regardless of the line. I would want a dog from any line as long as they are balanced and the right fit. Test- their are real life tests those are the ones that really count- to me anyway.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> Those of you who jump in to defend the American show line dogs: how many of you have been in the show ring and have witnessed what goes on?
> 
> Here's the unvarnished truth about them from someone who has bred multiple litters and titled multiple dogs in both the AKC and CKC show ring, going back several decades:
> 
> ...



Oh the irony...

Pedigree dogs exposed was a BRITISH documentary. Not a single ASL in there. 

2016 Controversial Crufts (The British Westminster) GSD Champion

Cruaghaire Catoria

Yep... 

Pretty sure that's a German Showline...

Unsubstantiated and wildly offensive claim by unnamed soures remains unsubstantiated due to their obvious personal bias.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Oh the irony...
> 
> Pedigree dogs exposed was a BRITISH documentary. Not a single ASL in there.
> 
> ...


Probably a good time to add that when Tina Barber set out to create Shiloh Shepherds that the split in the lines weren't all so evident back then so as to point the finger strictly at ASL as the Shiloh Shepherd's downfall. One of her favorite stud dogs was a West German working line long coated black dog imported from Germany, I don't recall his name. Also, Tina was not impressed with the lack of biddability and other temperamental traits that came with crossing to a Malamute and eliminated those dogs from her breeding program.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

All very good points!!!!


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

voodoolamb said:


> Oh the irony...
> 
> Pedigree dogs exposed was a BRITISH documentary. *Not a single ASL in there.*
> 
> ...



Thank you, LOL


(I still don't have time to write out a reply. I have a Bichon needing a bath calling my name...)


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I guess, after thinking about it, I really don't have much to say that I haven't said a million times before. 

I can't speak for people that I don't know. My tiny circle of friends that breed and show, also do other things with their dogs, as do their puppy buyers. Like I said, we sold a puppy to a guy that has trained her to be a SAR dog. She's on a team out of Texas. I have a friend who has a half brother to Carly that has his UD title, as well as rally titles and is AKC pointed (conformation). He has a daughter that just got her CDX a couple of weeks ago. They've done obedience with their GSDs for years. Now that I think of it, I know more people that do obedience than I thought. Most of us get herding instinct certificates on our dogs, dabble around with nose work and barn hunt. If it wasn't a 4 hour round trip drive, and I actually had the money to do it, I would train with an old friend of mine who is a herding judge. She trained the herding victor at the national several years back. 

As for being in the show ring, I personally don't have skittery, spooky dogs. The chaotic environment of a dog show doesn't faze them at all. Carly does the happy dance if I ask her if she wants to go to a dog show. Scarlet thinks its the most fun _ever_ (it's written all over her face when she's in the ring). Sage would fall asleep in the aisles at the shows waiting to go in. I've seen the occasional skittish dog, but it's been far and few between, not the norm.

I'm rambling, and not changing your opinion anyway. Back to my basketball game...


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> Most of us get herding instinct certificates on our dogs, ...


 I have been wanting to do this with my female. There are a few AHBA judges fairly close to me. But, I don't see anything on the event page of their site. Seeing as you have some knowledge in the programs. Is this something I could contact a judge to try and set up.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

cdwoodcox said:


> I have been wanting to do this with my female. There are a few AHBA judges fairly close to me. But, I don't see anything on the event page of their site. Seeing as you have some knowledge in the programs. Is this something I could contact a judge to try and set up.



The first leg of the HCT is basically an instinct test (AHBA). I had Paisley do the first leg when she was 6 months old for fun. She had already had training, but that was not required as it was the judge in the arena working her. The second leg - which we did not do - requires some training.

I have never actually instinct tested my dogs at a trial. It was just done at a herding facility. Called trainer, arranged instinct test, then started training.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

A couple of times a year, there are AKC instinct tests at the dog shows within driving distance of my home. I’m going to try to take Scarlet this spring. 

You might see if there is a herding association/club anywhere near you. That’s who puts on the instinct tests I’ve gone to.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> I guess, after thinking about it, I really don't have much to say that I haven't said a million times before.
> 
> I can't speak for people that I don't know. My tiny circle of friends that breed and show, also do other things with their dogs, as do their puppy buyers. Like I said, we sold a puppy to a guy that has trained her to be a SAR dog. She's on a team out of Texas. I have a friend who has a half brother to Carly that has his UD title, as well as rally titles and is AKC pointed (conformation). He has a daughter that just got her CDX a couple of weeks ago. They've done obedience with their GSDs for years. Now that I think of it, I know more people that do obedience than I thought. Most of us get herding instinct certificates on our dogs, dabble around with nose work and barn hunt. If it wasn't a 4 hour round trip drive, and I actually had the money to do it, I would train with an old friend of mine who is a herding judge. She trained the herding victor at the national several years back.
> 
> ...


The only things I may be able to add are that while dogfaeries goes to a lot more shows than I do, when it comes to conformation, I do not see the judges putting up the extreme dogs. The winners I have watched in the ring are lovely and moderate and balanced. 

The breeders I know personally encourage their puppy buyers (show and companion) to participate in dog sports and activities and to put performance titles on their dogs if they desire. Many of them do so. I know more people doing agility and nosework than I know doing obedience or herding, but that may be a function of both agility and nosework being very popular and very easily accessible in our metro area.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The specialty dogs are more extreme than the all breed ones, and that's what the person I quoted used to work with.

So, why don't more breeders who compete in specialty shows title their dogs in other venues? If you look at last year's best in show winner, Rumor Has It, the only dog in her 5 generation pedigree with any working titles is Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes, who has a herding title and is also a triple champion (TC). 

(He's also the grand sire of my ASL/GSL female.)

How do you go about changing the mindset that working titles are only for the dogs that can't make it in the specialty ring?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> The specialty dogs are more extreme than the all breed ones, and that's what *the person I quoted* used to work with.


Uncited quotes don't count as irrefutable evidence to the detriment of an entire line of dogs.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> The specialty dogs are more extreme than the all breed ones, and that's what the person I quoted used to work with.
> 
> So, why don't more breeders who compete in specialty shows title their dogs in other venues? If you look at last year's best in show winner, Rumor Has It, the only dog in her 5 generation pedigree with any working titles is Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes, who has a herding title and is also a triple champion (TC).
> 
> ...


Actually, much of my experience watching dog shows and seeing who is put up and who is not has come from specialty shows. What you claim is really not consistent with what I have seen.

it is also common among those I know who show, for breeders/owners to finish their dog in the ring - including at specialties - and then circle back on working titles.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Well, looks like our experience differs, then. I can think of only one kennel that tries to title their dogs 'at both ends', though CKC has passed a new rule saying that in order for a dog to go 'excellent select', it must have at least one working title, and pass a temperament test. Breeders had to fight REALLY hard to get this passed, too. And I've heard from several handlers who show dogs in both AKC and CKC that the chances of getting AKC to follow suit are pretty much nil.

If you haven't already, please take a look at the pedigrees of last year's Westminister champions. With the exception of Rumor, I didn't see any dogs with working titles in their 5 generation pedigrees. I can't believe the people who posted the dogs on the PDB would leave the titles out if the dogs had them. Also, the dogs in the earlier part of the pedigrees would be either too old or to title, or already dead. So, I'm afraid that doesn't support what you've observed. 

I honestly wish it DID, though.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Well, looks like our experience differs, then. I can think of only one kennel that tries to title their dogs 'at both ends', though CKC has passed a new rule saying that in order for a dog to go 'excellent select', it must have at least one working title, and pass a temperament test. Breeders had to fight REALLY hard to get this passed, too. And I've heard from several handlers who show dogs in both AKC and CKC that the chances of getting AKC to follow suit are pretty much nil.
> 
> If you haven't already, please take a look at the pedigrees of last year's Westminister champions. With the exception of Rumor, I didn't see any dogs with working titles in their 5 generation pedigrees. I can't believe the people who posted the dogs on the PDB would leave the titles out if the dogs had them. Also, the dogs in the earlier part of the pedigrees would be either too old or to title, or already dead. So, I'm afraid that doesn't support what you've observed.
> 
> I honestly wish it DID, though.


Well, the dogs I'm talking about are younger, recently finished champions. To be fair, they don't all have performance titles YET, but my point was that the breeders are not ignoring performance. The order of operations for many is get championship, then get into dog sports. My apologies for not being clear.  

Again, my experience at specialty shows is that the dogs being put up are more moderate. It's unfortunate that your experience is different. My observation of the AKC has not been that extremes are favored.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver -Max my asl was sleeping and was a unharmed victim of 12 years old boy humor. My son had to make this video after I read some of your posts. Guess who darth Vader reminded me of. 
https://youtu.be/SfPfoD6ajW4


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> Well, looks like our experience differs, then. I can think of only one kennel that tries to title their dogs 'at both ends',


Wow, seriously?



Sunsilver said:


> though CKC has passed a new rule saying that in order for a dog to go 'excellent select', it must have at least one working title, and pass a temperament test.


It’s a good rule, should apply to all dogs who enter the conformation ring…at the very least, a temperament test.



Sunsilver said:


> If you haven't already, please take a look at the pedigrees of last year's Westminister champions. With the exception of Rumor, I didn't see any dogs with working titles in their 5 generation pedigrees


What working title does Rumor hold? I don’t see any?? BTW, As long as the dogs in the pedigree are registered with the AKC it’s easy enough to pull up their information on the AKC website and see whether or not they have titles recognized by the AKC, at least for more recent dogs. 

When the debate about WL vs ASL’s comes up there will always be people who know someone that put a CD, UD etc. on their ASL. I think those who support the idea that titles should be on both ends of the dog are* looking for consistency rather than exceptions to the norm. *It’s simple logic. If only 8 GSD’s earn their UDX every year ( keeping in mind, not all of those dogs are breeding), how many litters will be produced from dogs with the UDX in a given year? How many GSD’s will be born to parents with the OTCH if only 2 GSD a year are awarded that title?

Based solely on AKC statistics, GSD breeders and dog owners don’t by and large take advantage of the multiple AKC trials available that would enable them to title their dogs. What they’re doing outside the confines of the AKC is anyone’s guess because statistics aren’t always public.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

_What working title does Rumor hold? I don’t see any?? BTW, As long as the dogs in the pedigree are registered with the AKC it’s easy enough to pull up their information on the AKC website and see whether or not they have titles recognized by the AKC, at least for more recent dogs. _

Whiteshepherds, you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant NONE of the dogs in her 5 generation pedigree have working titles, with the exception of Dallas. And in _my experience_, the same holds true for most GSDs that are competing in specialty shows. And that majorly sucks...


----------

