# Dutch Shepherd???



## Saratm_93 (Oct 24, 2012)

ok so i've been looking for a new "pup" for the family we have a 9 month old GSD and absolutely love her, but were trying to find an additional pup that will fit into our family. And i recently found a "dutch shepherd" pup and ive heard that theres no true breed called that but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that i may possibly end up rescuing?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

They are a lot like mals in personality, dont get it, someone with lots of experience should only get one honestly. There are some mal owners on here. I train with some mals in protection they remind me of a high drive gsd on meth. And i mean HIGH DRIVe working gsd on meth lol


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We had a 1/2 GSD x 1/2 Dutch and he was a basket case, mentally and physically.

If you're interested in rescuing, do so but get a male to avoid same-sex aggression, Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder is a good start


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I currently also have 9 month old GSD and would not know how to find time for another new dog.
I know the Dutch Shepherds and they are not a family dog unless you work them hard all day, every day but then your family might turn into a basket case


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ive never seen one get tired i don't know if its possible lol


they are great dogs but the thought of owning one in my house is scary lol


Some of them i swear have wings


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I know someone with a Dutch Shep who is an absolute sweetheart!

I think for the most part though, it's harder to find a Dutchie with good nerves and balanced drives. Not impossible, just harder, than with a GSD. Why not another GSD, if yours has turned out so well?

I've heard the best time to introduce a new pup, is when your other dog reaches about 2 years of age, just FYI. I totally understand the temptation, my pup is 6 months old and she's so wonderful, even I'm tempted. But my brain rules my heart, thankfully.


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## Saratm_93 (Oct 24, 2012)

so the main opinion about the "DS" is that there mainly crazy and not to get him. lol nice to know. i've been looking on pet finder for about 2 month and every time i see one id like to meet it either they have to be adopted with there sibling or it has wolf in it or the people wouldn't feel comfortable putting it in a home with a young child (which i love that there honest with me especially about that). but we drove out to a place about 2 hours away with the intention of adopting this Shepherd/husky mix male that was absolutely GORGEOUS and we all loved and right before we signed the paper work there like so your taking him and his brother. we we're like WHAT?!?!?!?!?! i'm just at my whits end with all of them. aghhh idk i'm sure when its right everything will work its self out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It would help if you put your location in your profile. People may have local contacts to offer. I know someone (who is Dutch) who breeds and imports DS but I'm not sure if you live anywhere close.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Don't get one.... If you have to ask whether or not they would be good for your family, they wont be. DS's mentality are exactly alike mali's. They need a job and need to be worked, HARD. I work and exercise Zoey like you wouldn't believe and she could run 20 miles more at the end of the day. DS's are independent thinkers which is much harder for correction. I could go on for a while but look into something else.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Our breeder also bred, Dutch Shepherds. The ones I met were very sweet, not as aggressive as a GSD, but had a lot more energy. You might take up jogging if you get one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

In all fairness, people who knew our dog's breeder (we were unaware of all this at the time of adoption) said the GSD part of him was the unstable part.
Either way he had major issues.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I only ever met one Dutchie. She was a bit fearful. The owners said it's really hard to find a good breeder who has dogs with solid nerves here in the states. 

However, this is a rescue? How old is this dog? Go meet the dog and make your decisions based on that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I always wanted a Dutch Shepherd. I love them. They are drop dead gorgeous. 

However, I recently got a Mal. It wasn't planned, but that's how life goes, isn't it? 
She's a year old. The youngest dog in the house. She settles nicely. She's got a bit more energy than the others, however she isn't that much harder to handle. If you are used to high drive and high energy dogs, and aren't inexperienced as a handler, you can handle a dutch shepherd or a mal. 

Seriously, they are not that much of a crazy monster. They are more difficult but not that difficult as people really think they are. You have to be an active family. Obedience is a must. You can't keep them up all day long. They need physical and mental stimulation.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

how can you know in a few seconds of meeting the pup what its going to be like? I don't think dutch sheps have bad nerves common in the breed. I don't think nerve has anything to do with why they would be a bad match in a pet home. IF you went with a breed like this you need to go into it thinking u can handle anything no matter what. Thats a lot of dog to deal with and you might really really struggle for a long time and might never get anywhere. This person can't be experienced if they even had to ask about the breed on a forum. 


You can meet my dog in a calm state you won't know that if you dont exercise/work her daily she might just eat your whole house when she gets bored. Did you see mrs k dish washer picture? Stuff like that will happen a lot i bet. WHy put someone through that and no t be blunt about it and tell them to go with somthing more relaxed and save them stress? a lot of people are also in denial of what they really have. But again not all dogs are the same but why even bother risking it when you can get another shepherd matched with you from a rescue and have a MUCH better chance of ending up with a good pet. Getting a shepherd pup is risky enough there are a lot of them out there that people can't handle as it is.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I used to own a DS. He was a nerve bag with aggression issues. He is now a personal protection dog. A lot of work, a lot of training, a TON of money, and even more heartbreak.

I now have a GSD and he is amazing. Amazing. I will always own a GSD now. I work with about 30 Mals for my job, a handful of DSs and several GSDs and the GSDs are hands-down the dogs I would bring home if I had to. And I *love* several of the little female Mals I work, but would not want them for a pet.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree that they are gorgeous! The only one I know personally was a rescue and she's frankly a mess. Very timid and fearful, she couldn't even participate in a basic obedience class and walk in close proximity to the other dogs. She is coming along though. Not for the feint of heart


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

jogging doesn't phase my czech/belgian dog it wont phase a mal or a dutch shepherd try something like skiing/biking across the universe lol


if you want another breed you can't try labs, dobie, staffy, rottie, or any of the other herders maybe?? even from a rescue


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I do know a Dutch Shepherd that is an HRD dog. I believe he's a dog out of Bill Dotson breeding. Drop Dead Gorgeous. Not nervy at all. Stable and well bred. 

Not all dutchies are nerve bags. It really depends on the breeding and you can teach a dog calmness. Even a Mal and Dutchie can be taught to control themselves. It's a lot of work. However, they are not as crazy as everyone wants to portray them. 
If that was the case, there wouldn't be people out there being able to handle their Mals or Dutchies. 

It is an adjustment and if you are willed to put in the time and training, have the right people to work with, I don't see anything wrong in going for it.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

mrs k no one thinks they are crazy they are just serious working dogs for a purpose. If i wan'ted to win titles in ring and psa I would def get one. THey serve their purpose as a extreme sport and or working dog.


They require a much more skilled experience handler than average or things can end really bad. THEre is NOTHING wrong with it and it doesnt mean they are bad or crazy they just fit a certain purpose they aren't GSDS. NOthing wrong with that at all. I love and respect them. I am sure anyone who has seen them in action does also.

But they seem to always be so extreme and not so versatile like a good working gsd which makes a mal/dutch VERY hard to live with for an average owner. REmember this is JMHO.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes, they are serious working dogs but they are also very affectionate dogs that bound themselves to you, will lay on your lap, snuggle their head right next to your face and lay with you on the couch for hours and hours and hours. 

They want your full attention, they want your affection, they want to be there for YOU a 150%. 

I wouldn't a child play fetch with a Mal, if the Mal hasn't been taught self control and obedience, however I wouldn't let a child necessarily play fetch with any of my dogs, except for Indra. 

I do consider myself as an average dog owner and from what I can see, they are not any worse than a high drive working GSD. In some sense they are more explosive and go from 0-500 but at the same time I just don't really consider them any worse than my Nala.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I have only met one Dutch Shepherd and she was a cool dog. She was very controlled and actively training in Schutzhund. I have met far more nervy and completely unstable Malinois than I have GSD's unfortunately. I know the owners of the dogs and I know that they put quite a bit of work into trying to teach them some control, but those dogs are loose canons. I have met a couple nice ones too. Just like with any breed, there's going to be the good and the bad.

My personal opinion is that I definitely wouldn't suggest that anyone get a Mal or a Dutch Shepherd for anything other than a working or active training.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I've met a few at training. Most are police K9s. Awesome working dogs, but there's no such thing as a home life for these dogs. They are hard wired to work work work work work. If you are not going to be working them (seriously working them, not just a few days a week) and can't keep up with a high drive, high energy dog..... I wouldn't. Not an easy breed. 

However, if you ARE looking for a working dog... the ones I've seen are killer on the field! Obedience is insanely fast and accurate, protection is spot on, hard hitting, and tight grip! Those dogs FLY!!! None of them that I met were weak nerved (I can see that being a problem though, just like some Malis can be)... but, they test you a lot as a handler. We had one that wouldn't out on the bite, another that was difficult to control during bite work (didn't listen, and wanted to do his own work.. no recall, ignored commands)... and some that just needed good reminders of what they were supposed to do. Hard dogs!! Tracking is very nice on these dogs too. Their article and building searches were fast and clean. I've really seen and heard a lot of great things about them... but, I've never owned one. It is a breed on my list for working dogs however... so maybe some day!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, there is such a huge misconception about these dogs on this forum, it's not even funny.

Maybe it is better if some of you never get one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, they are serious working dogs but they are also very affectionate dogs that bound themselves to you, will lay on your lap, snuggle their head right next to your face and lay with you on the couch for hours and hours and hours.
> 
> *They want your full attention, they want your affection, they want to be there for YOU a 150%. *


Well instead of saying condescending statements, then maybe explain why they wouldn't work in a multi-dog household not prepared for that kind of "bonding"...like you do above.



> Honestly, there is such a huge misconception about these dogs on this forum, it's not even funny.
> 
> Maybe it is better if some of you never get one.


I do think that some breeds (and possibly dogs within those breeds) are best left to experienced owners, not owners who have a 9mo. old puppy already and are probably not be ready for an intense dog like a Dutch Shepherd.

At some point you have to wonder, why are there so many of these awesome dogs in rescue, and poor breeding/inexperienced owners would be top of my list if I were to guess.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Ya know, it's funny because back when I originally started my search for a dog everyone told me NOT to get a German Shepherd, that I couldn't handle a German Shepherd...(All these were people over the internet of course) They made them out to be monsters that would just be far too much and that they're "not for the average dog owner". Needless to say, I ended up with Chance who was a German Shepherd/Kelpie mix. (And Kelpies are comparable to Border Collies) Best dog I ever owned!! Sure, he took work but it was completely worth it. (And I'd never been in the best shape of my life LOL!!) He has since past far too early and I now have a 7 month old Czech/West German WORKING LINE German Shepherd puppy....Again everyone tried to scare me off of a working line dog saying they're "not for the average dog owner" and talking about how they HAVE to be worked...She too is a happy and healthy house pet. She's a lot of dog but with proper exercise and training she is a well behaved dog and I have no doubt she'll turn into just as good of an adult dog as Chance was.

I guess my point being, I think many breeds are put out as monsters with crazy drive (And no doubt it's true for many that they are hard to handle) but if as many people couldn't handle them as folks make it out to be, I honestly think the breeds would go extinct because most people DON'T work their dogs in sport, but that doesn't mean the dog can't be a running partner or enjoy other activities with their human to get out that energy.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> At some point you have to wonder, why are there so many of these awesome dogs in rescue, and poor breeding/inexperienced owners would be top of my list if I were to guess.


There are 138 Dutch Shepherds on Petfinder.
There are 237 Malinios on Petfinder.
...These two "hard" breeds total 375 dogs.

On the other hand:

There are 3,010 Shih Tzu's on Petfinder.
There are *18,565* Chihuahuas on Petfinder.

.....I don't think it's a matter of how "hard" the breed is for the reason so many dogs are in rescue as much as it is an issue of people not taking on their dogs for life and people breeding far too many. Even if they were laid back couch potatoes I'm sure just as many (If not more) would still be in shelters and rescue groups.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Well instead of saying condescending statements, then maybe explain why they wouldn't work in a multi-dog household not prepared for that kind of "bonding"...like you do above.


They do work perfectly in a multi dog household. 

As a matter of fact, there are plenty of people I know back in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, that have MULTIPLE Malinois in the very same house without crates or kennels.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think it boils down to the individual dog and owner as to ANY breed working in a multi dog household.

I have met malinois I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for, and I have met malinois that I would have no problem taking home. Same with dutchies, same with german shepherds, etc.

There is no right or wrong answer to the "multi dog" question. 

I do think anyone wanting to get any of these breeds of dogs, needs to educate themselves, find a breeder who knows the in's and outs of the breed and can match a puppy to their lifestyle,expectations and what they don't want to live with. And then you need to be an owner who follows thru.

If the above isn't done, well you could end up posting in the "I can't handle my dog/he's aggressive" forums like so many do.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think it boils down to the individual dog and owner as to ANY breed working in a multi dog household.
> 
> I have met malinois I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for, and I have met malinois that I would have no problem taking home. Same with dutchies, same with german shepherds, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

your welcome It is my words of wisdom for the day


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Saratm_93 said:


> ok so i've been looking for a new "pup" for the family we have a 9 month old GSD and absolutely love her, but were trying to find an additional pup that will fit into our family. And i recently found a "dutch shepherd" pup and ive heard that theres no true breed called that but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that i may possibly end up rescuing?


First of all, there is a breed. The breed club was founded in The Netherlands in 1898. Back then the dogs were identical to the Belgian Shepherds and very similar to the German Shepherds. Over time the breeds have diverged and a true Dutch Shepherd does not look like a Malinois. 

What you probably saw was a Dutch/Malinois hybrid. 90% of the DS in the USA are hybrids for working. I've been in the show ring with some of these and even the handlers have a hard time with some of them.

The purebreds are very nice dogs. Slightly smaller than a Malinois, the maximum height is 24 inches. They make good house dogs and family dogs, but will also protect you when you need it. They are active and love to run when outside (not run away, just run), but are calm inside. They have an independent streak, so they need a gentle but firm leader. Sometimes they think they know a better way to do something.

I write this because I am Secretary of the AKC Dutch Shepherd Breed Club and want to educate people about the purebred Dutch Shepherds. I have a short hair and he is a sweetie! 

Currently, there is nobody in the US that I know of breeding the (purebred) short-hair variety. But there are long-hair and rough-hair breeders. 

Dutch Shepherd Page


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## GSD2LADY (Mar 13, 2009)

Hello all, I don't usually post much but had to add my opinion to this thread. I have had German Shepherds all of my adult life, I added a Dutchie to my pack almost a year ago. I have 2 GSD's a mix breed and a Dutchie, they are all house dogs and do fine. I started doing Schutzhund with my GSD about 2 years ago but he does not have the temperment needed for the sport. I found that I really liked the sport but needed a dog that could do it. I am lucky enough to have a great trainer and he found the Dutchie for me. I have had Ice (the dutchie) since he was a baby - he just turned 1 last weekend. He is wonderful! Is he crazy high drive? Yes. Is he pushy? Yes. Do I have to work and play with him alot? Yes, but it is worth it. Is he a wonderful with my other dogs? Yes again. He is exceling at schutzhund and agility. Just like Mrs. K said - this same crazy working dog will come in and lay on my lap with his sucky bear and relax just like any other dog. (but watch out if you move or uncross your legs he is up and ready to do something..:wild I work full time and the dogs are at home all day waiting but the evenings are for them. Sometimes we train sometimes we just play. Hard core working Dutch Shepherds can also be very nice pets. If you are in the Chicagoland area - I can put you in touch with Ice's breeder.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

BlackPuppy said:


> First of all, there is a breed. The breed club was founded in The Netherlands in 1898. Back then the dogs were identical to the Belgian Shepherds and very similar to the German Shepherds. Over time the breeds have diverged and a true Dutch Shepherd does not look like a Malinois.
> 
> What you probably saw was a Dutch/Malinois hybrid. 90% of the DS in the USA are hybrids for working. I've been in the show ring with some of these and even the handlers have a hard time with some of them.
> 
> ...


tks for your insight. a pic or two of your dutch would be nice when you have time.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Took this from another site
"Dutch Shepherds and malinois are in essense the same breed. Dutchies are stripy or black malinois that the fci countries would not register. KNVP in Holland doesn't give a rip about registrations (and usually any registration they do, everyone knows is a complete fake, but they can get "papers" on anything you want). The KNVP wants dogs that work, it doesn't care what they are.

There are many times you will get malinois puppies out of "dutch shepherd" breeding and most "dutch shepherds" are out of malinois or malinois crosses.

So, knowing the background please do not be fooled into thinking that the dutchie is a "mid point" between a mali and a gsd. They are NOTHING like GSD and EVERYTHING like malinois.

The one major difference is that because so few places recognize them, they are not and never will be a "show dog". There are no soften downed temperments or lines.

80% of dutchies come from KNVP lines, this is the dutch police trial breeding system. It is a VERY tough system, and pretty much the only dogs they will breed are dogs that do well (all the others ones go elsewhere, because if it can not work and succeed in the system they do not need it). So if you are looking at a dutchie, be aware that it is more than likely a serious working dog.

most of the dutchies I have seen are very sharp. By this I mean dog reactive and ppl reactive. More so than dobes and from a very young age. They tend to be more independant thinkers, harder for physical correction and willing and needing to work.

The ppl that breed here want working dogs, for working programs, such as police k9, french ring, psa, etc.

Having said all of that, I do not know another breed in north america right now that is being more overbred by ppl that know nothing. Be very careful whom you would look to as a breeder. Any idiot can get dutchies and breed them, and they do. And they use the non registration as a free for all to breed anything.

I think there are some very nice dutchies out there working. I would not get one as a house dog, and honestly if I have a choice I would get a malinois over a dutchie.

In regards to shedding, NOTHING sheds like a GSD. I don't find the mali's or the dutchies shed more than a lab, probably less. But it does vary, some dutchies have a longer coat and some have a smoother coat."

Now my additions....

This thread isn't asking how good or bad a DS is, they are GREAT dogs and we know that. The main issue here is that the OP is thinking about buying one with no knowledge of it other then asking an internet forum, no prior experience with a dog like this is set up for disaster. There are plenty of DS's out there that are calm and great dogs, but the MAJORITY of them aren't calm at and don't fool the OP into thinking that. My trainer has a DS trained for protection and he is such a great dog and very calm, but 1 word and he goes from 0-200% like that. 

No I don't the OP should get a dutchie. Dutchie's need an experienced handler and seeing that they have a 9 month gsd, there was no other information given that they've had prior experience.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Nobody ever said they would be calm. I said they can be taught to be calm and they have to be taught how to be calm. Everyone said that you have to be prepared and put work into it, because they are serious working dogs. 

I know what I got myself into with MaDeuce but I am still asking questions and I was thrown off by their explosive behavior but it isn't really something I am worried about because now that I have seen it, I know what to expect and what it looks like. 

That being said, since my husband had the car accident, I have not been out working the dogs. I am limited to the yards, freeshaping and walks. Ma Deuce is not going crazy, she is not going nuts over less physical activity. She is doing great, just like the others, however, you have to teach them that. If you don't teach them calmness, they will walk all over you. 

Like my German SAR friend said: Everyone can activate a Mal and rile them up, the art however, in handling a Mal is to teach them to be calm.

And that is where the secret lies and what many people supposedly have issues with. You need a lot of patience and you have to be calm. While they are hard dogs, they are also sensitive dogs and they may not take the same level of correction a gsd would take.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

We owned a half-Malanois adopted dog for a year but had to re-home him because he honestly had NO gear between "Park" in his crate and "Fifth" when he was loose in the house. He was an utterly brilliant dog and had a sweet personality, but this guy needed constant stimulation. He truly needed a job to do all day long. I thought I knew what a breed called a working dog needed, but this guy proved me wrong.

I cried for three weeks when we had to let him go, but it would have been selfish to keep him.  He needed an owner that was going to at least do some kind of dog sport with him. Walks and throwing the ball weren't cutting it. I still miss him. I hope his new owners love him as much as we did but are enjoying putting him to work.

Our shepherd and our shepherd mix, by contrast, are far more adaptable to varying levels of activity. Jaeger isn't even six months old yet but he is capable of just hanging out sometimes. That's a much better fit for us.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i know a guy who could not handle his dutch it was too sharp and ended up biting someone in the leg when he was trying to give it off leash exercise and they kicked it

anyways it is put to sleep my friend is in a 150 thousand dollar court suit 


Now he has a dobermen which have aggression bred out of them pretty much


A friend of mine also switched and got a mal for extreme protection sports he previously had a german shepherd and now said he does not think he will ever go back.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> There are 138 Dutch Shepherds on Petfinder.
> There are 237 Malinios on Petfinder.
> ...These two "hard" breeds total 375 dogs.


Um, hate to point out the obvious but these are not exactly breeds you see walking down the street at any given moment!
Look at how many Portuguese Water Dogs are on there. Maybe 5 at any given time and 4 of those are mixes of something other than PWD!
Or Leonbergers? 20! Right now! The numbers on PF doesn't mean they are/aren't difficult to own, that means there just aren't many of them (yet) and popularity hasn't shot up.
Popularity of the breed = frequency you see in rescue/on Petfinder :thumbup:

I have seen exactly two Afghan Hounds in my life, and I see there is 20 of them in rescue, and at least 1/2 of those don't even resemble an Afghan hound  http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?animal_type=Dog&pet_breed=Afghan+Hound&location=99350&distance=0

As breeds become more popular and more well-known (hence, bred more often) you'll see more and more of them on PF.
I can't take a number like the one you tossed out as "proof" they are not difficult dogs to own.
Heck, half the folks out there, probably more, shouldn't own a dog, period, yet they do. 
Add to that, a dog becoming increasingly popular and with high drive, and poor breeding, and boom, they're in rescue.

We might jaunt over to MrsK's thread where someone ill prepared to have 1) two female dogs and 2) a pit bull and a Malinois, to see how these breeds are being failed by poor breeders placing them in situations they shouldn't be in.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I also shouldve said in my post it all depends on the dog. My neighbor has two male intact Mali's, he has MS and is bound to a wheelchair! Granted he works these dogs everyday, and that's why they are so well behaved. All I wanted to include in this topic is that *A LOT* of DS's are nut's! Not ALL of them are though which is why some of them make awesome pets, but if you get a bad apple (IE one that walks all over you) your in for a nightmare.

MR. K- Sorry to hear about your husbands accident, hope everything is ok.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

And that's what I love about the GSD's, they generally have a good off switch. My GSD pup is ready to go at any moment, but inside, she's nice and quiet and is happy to chill out.

I think really everyone is saying the same thing. Dutchies CAN be great dogs, and there are good and bad in every breed, but the OP needs to be serious about the amount of time and training she can dedicate to this very strong and active breed of dog.

I think the Dutchie's biggest obstacle is that they have that very unique look and cool coat patterns. I think that oftentimes attracts the people who like the look, but aren't realistic about the temperament and behaviour of the breed. I think someone who's interested in a serious working dog, would not be hung up on the specific breed (unless they are a breeder) but more about the individual dog. Is it the right fit for them?

I LOVE the look of DS's but I think GSD's, generally speaking, are a better fit for my current lifestyle and level of handling experience.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> I also shouldve said in my post it all depends on the dog. My neighbor has two male intact Mali's, he has MS and is bound to a wheelchair! Granted he works these dogs everyday, and that's why they are so well behaved. All I wanted to include in this topic is that *A LOT* of DS's are nut's! Not ALL of them are though which is why some of them make awesome pets, but if you get a bad apple (IE one that walks all over you) your in for a nightmare.
> 
> .


Nickyb - what is your experience with Dutchie's? Have you owned them? Just been around them? How many have you been around/owned?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I read a few of the replies and can honestly say I am surprised that no one addressed the OP's situation, or rather, the fact that we know nothing of it. 

All we know is that she has a GSD who is under a year old, and that recently there was an incident of the GSD "freaking out" when a child ran up to her and jumped her. 

No one has said that before you go adding another dog of any kind, let alone a very, very high drive one, it is best to concentrate on training the one you have for a couple of years. 

It is irrelevant in answer to the original question if the Dutch Shepherd is "crazy" or not.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well I mentioned that in another thread, because in this thread they don't mention that much at all, and it was unclear from this thread they were having issues w/the 9mo. old (that the dog "freaked out" over the toddler)


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I have never owned one. My trainer has one and he is an *AWESOME DOG*. I've spent a bit of time with the local clubs and trainers and there are many "DS's" around. Alot of the clubs have PB Mali's (neighbor has 2 intact males) GSD's and DS's. I've probably seen about 10-15 within the past 2 years so I am basing my thoughts off of that.
I feel like this is an attack waiting to happen so I want to be clear that my trainer, Steve's, DS is awesome, well behaved, calm, and trustworthy. The majority of other's I have seen have just been basket cases and need good trainers behind them, or shall I say in front of them. I am *NOT* saying they were all like this, there were a few that I wanted to take home.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I read a few of the replies and can honestly say I am surprised that no one addressed the OP's situation, or rather, the fact that we know nothing of it.
> 
> All we know is that she has a GSD who is under a year old, and that recently there was an incident of the GSD "freaking out" when a child ran up to her and jumped her.
> 
> ...


I kind of did, but ok. LOL I do agree, we went off on a tangent 

ETA: where did she say her GSD freaked out? I don't see it, at least not in this thread, so you have to be fair. If it was mentioned in another thread, maybe not everyone read that. Also the OP did ask "but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that i may possibly end up rescuing"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> I have never owned one. My trainer has one and he is an *AWESOME DOG*. I've spent a bit of time with the local clubs and trainers and there are many "DS's" around. Alot of the clubs have PB Mali's (neighbor has 2 intact males) GSD's and DS's. I've probably seen about 10-15 within the past 2 years so I am basing my thoughts off of that.
> I feel like this is an attack waiting to happen so I want to be clear that my trainer, Steve's, DS is awesome, well behaved, calm, and trustworthy. The majority of other's I have seen have just been basket cases and need good trainers behind them, or shall I say in front of them. I am *NOT* saying they were all like this, there were a few that I wanted to take home.


I'm not attacking you nor have I ever so not sure why you would have that impression. I'm simply asking what your experience is that you are basing such strong opinions on. 

In fact, many people on this thread seem to have really strong opinions and I think only one person that responded actually owns a Dutch Shepherd which she got from out of the country.

And with the few Dutch Shepherds in the US, I would really wonder whether this dog in question is even a DS or a mix that has a brindled breed in it somewhere, thus my suggestion to meet the dog in question.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

blackshep said:


> I kind of did, but ok. LOL I do agree, we went off on a tangent
> 
> ETA: where did she say her GSD freaked out? I don't see it, at least not in this thread, so you have to be fair. If it was mentioned in another thread, maybe not everyone read that. Also the OP did ask "but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that i may possibly end up rescuing"


Yep, you did.
I went back and looked and saw your very gracious and indirect response.  

Here is what you asked to see: I do try and look at the OP's other posts before I do reply to a question. My response varies depending on what the situation is.


Saratm_93 said:


> so i have a 9month old female whos named Zoey, and were walking down the street our normal routine for the end of the day, we round our last corner and out of NO WEAR comes this little girl (she couldn't have been 4) and her mom i stop walking so they can cross in front of us so I'm not dragging Zoey down the street, they pass then all of a sudden the little girl turns around a bolts for zoey, Zoey being a puppy starts jumping around like the puppy she is. and I'm just standing there completely shocked at what im seeing. anyways the little girl reaches Zoey and tries to mount her like a FREAKING pony. I'm irritated at this point, *Zoeys freaking out *and the mother of the girl just turns and says and i quote "AWWW, HOW CUTE" so zoey puts the little girl to the ground, not aggressively or anything just to stop this little from climbing on her back. and this women FLIPS OUT!!! so were yelling at each other in the middle of the street the little girls crying which pisses the mom off even more. and i just cant help but think what if that little girl ran up to a dog that was actually aggressive and the dog bit her. i mean COME ON people teach your kids not to just run up to any dog strange or not.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Never said you did, just seemed like I was being set up and I was wrong for thinking that way lol Guess I just went into defensive mode, I know before I made a comment on here and a few people went all crazy on me..... Sorry for making it seem like you were about to, didn't want to have any impression or arguments, just my thoughts. 

I think the strong opinions are based on the fact that the majority of "DS's" you will find on petfinder are bred poorly. 

I think the main thing we need to focus on is *why* the OP wants a DS. My main concern is they want one because it looks "cool". DS are bred to work, simple as that. I just dont want to OP to adopt/rescue/buy a puppy DS for it to end up in a shelter or rescue.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> Never said you did, just seemed like I was being set up and I was wrong for thinking that way lol Guess I just went into defensive mode, I know before I made a comment on here and a few people went all crazy on me..... Sorry for making it seem like you were about to, didn't want to have any impression or arguments, just my thoughts.
> .


It's all good.  I rarely "set" anyone up...not that I haven't but I rarely do. Most of the time I'm just asking a question because I don't know the answer.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Nickyb said:


> I think the main thing we need to focus on is *why* the OP wants a DS. My main concern is they want one because it looks "cool". DS are bred to work, simple as that. I just dont want to OP to adopt/rescue/buy a puppy DS for it to end up in a shelter or rescue.



The only thing she said is because "you can't have just one. "



Saratm_93 said:


> So my husband and i have an 8month old black/tan female GSD. and in the next 6 months or so were thinking about getting another one (you cant have just one you know. lol) a couple years ago i fell in LOVE with the White GSD, and we've been looking into breeders in florida. we have talked to a couple of non-WGSD breeders and one of them have told us that WGSDs get a bad skin condition because of the almost constant heat in florida. And i guess I'm just wondering if theres any truth to this, I've looked online and haven't found any truth to it but i figured one or two of you could shed a little light on the fact.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> I think the strong opinions are based on the fact that the majority of "DS's" you will find on petfinder are bred poorly.


In my experience, the majority of DS's you find on petfinder are not even DS's. They are mixes that have a brindle breed (Boxer, Pitbull, Greyhound, in them somewhere along with a breed with pointed ears.

As I said, the one person I know that does have a purebred DS said it's very hard to find a breeder in the US that has stable dogs. Hers is weak nerved. If I were interested in this breed, I would not look in the U.S.

Out of 6 pages of DS's listed...find one you think is purebred
http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search...ch+shepherd&location=18848&startsearch=Search


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok, thanks Sunflowers, I think I did see that other thread, but didn't connect the dots.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

huntergreen said:


> tks for your insight. a pic or two of your dutch would be nice when you have time.


My dog is No. 41 on: http://www.akc.org/breeds/dutch_shepherd/photos.cfm

His father is No. 43.

Since he is not mixed with Malinois, he does not have that high drive working dog temperament. But he loves to run!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Nickyb said:


> I think the main thing we need to focus on is *why* the OP wants a DS. My main concern is they want one because it looks "cool". DS are bred to work, simple as that.


I think the stripes are the only reason people mix them with their working Malinois (in the US). 

Purebred DS are nice family dogs that are very smart and very much like a GSD, but smaller, lighter and faster. They make a great agility dog and can do whatever you ask. They can compete in the protection sports, but the purebred breeders don't do much of that (even in Europe). 

And, I think they look cool, too.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> In my experience, the majority of DS's you find on petfinder are not even DS's. They are mixes that have a brindle breed (Boxer, Pitbull, Greyhound, in them somewhere along with a breed with pointed ears.
> 
> As I said, the one person I know that does have a purebred DS said it's very hard to find a breeder in the US that has stable dogs. Hers is weak nerved. If I were interested in this breed, I would not look in the U.S.
> 
> ...


Not even going to look because I know there isnt a single one. I 100% agree with you though. My neighbor spends big $$ to get his Mali's imported and my trainer did the same for his DS.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ive seen some brindle cute mutts that look like DS lol just walking around down the street.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I'm guessing like any other breed you're going to find good ones and bad ones. I don't know much about the breed but a Dutch Shepherd came walking through the AWSA conformation area at a show a few months ago, it was hard not to notice her. She was so well behaved I asked the owner if I could take her picture. I'm guessing this one was there doing either flyball or agility (forgot to ask). 

Anyway here she is and now I'm curious. Blackpuppy can you tell if she's a purebred or hybrid from the pictures?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackPuppy said:


> My dog is No. 41 on: http://www.akc.org/breeds/dutch_shepherd/photos.cfm
> 
> His father is No. 43.
> 
> Since he is not mixed with Malinois, he does not have that high drive working dog temperament. But he loves to run!


Since he was mixed with Malinois he doesn't have that high drive working dog temperament? :help:

What do you consider as high drive working dog temperament?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Since he was mixed with Malinois he doesn't have that high drive working dog temperament? :help:
> 
> What do you consider as high drive working dog temperament?


You missed the "not." 



BlackPuppy said:


> My dog is No. 41 on: http://www.akc.org/breeds/dutch_shepherd/photos.cfm
> 
> His father is No. 43.
> 
> Since he is *not mixed* with Malinois, he does not have that high drive working dog temperament. But he loves to run!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> You missed the "not."


Oh, I stand corrected.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Stosh said:


> I agree that they are gorgeous! The only one I know personally was a rescue and she's frankly a mess. Very timid and fearful, she couldn't even participate in a basic obedience class and walk in close proximity to the other dogs. She is coming along though. Not for the feint of heart


Are you suggesting that's something about DS in general? It sounds like that dog had a bad life, and most dogs in her shoes would probably be like she is.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh no, I was just talking about the only one I've been around for any length of time. I agree with MrsK that they are a breed that needs to be worked and probably isn't a good choice for someone like the OP who is wanting to add another dog to the home. Especially if the DS she's considering is a rescue and hasn't had a good foundation from the start. It would be a lot of work for her, especially since she has a 9 mo old gsd.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I do think some dogs tolerate shelter/rescue life a lot better than others. I don't know if this is "by breed" or individuals within that breed.
Dachshunds and GSDs spring to mind as a generalization. 

Maybe any dog that bonds like velcro to it's owner won't do well in rescue/shelter settings.


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## zekni (Jul 3, 2012)

Ive never had a dutch shepherd, but I can describe my experience with my belgian tervuren who had a similar temperment to a friend's dutch shepherd; from a pet owners point of view. 
When I was 18, I adopted a working-line terv at 4 months old from a woman who was worried he was too much for her 12 year old son (duh). I had a very high energy australian shep/mix at the time and my parents had raised german shepherds when I was little. I remember thinking, 'belgian shepherd, german shepherd.. how different could they be?'
Yea, let me tell you just how different they can be.
I spent the next 3 or 4 years taking that dog and the austrailian mix hiking around 4 hours EVERY day through the roughest desert terrain I could find. When it got too dark to hike anymore, we'd go back home, pick up the mastiff who was not a hiker, and head to the dog park for another few hours. All-day hikes on the weekends. That was to be able to sleep through the night peacefully. Those two dogs literally ping-ponged off the walls with energy. 
After about 4 years, he could be lived with on jogging 3x a week, nightly dog park trips, and all day hikes or roadtrips/camping on the weekend. 
I had never hiked or jogged before I got that dog, I rarely camped. I have never seen another dog tackle cliffs and jump boulders and climb waterfalls like Kota. That dog was so cool, and game for anything I could possibly come up with to ask of him. I was in the best shape of my life. He trained me for triathlons, he kept up with the atvs at freakin top speed. I would have missed out on a lot of really cool stuff without that dog to force me to look for new outlets for him to release energy. 
I dont think I ever really tired him out until he was ten or eleven years old, all I could do each day was take the edge off. It wasn't until he was 13 and a year into a battle with aggressive lymph cancer that he really slowed down, but he never once admitted he was an old man until the day his body gave out at 14 and he died with his head in my lap. I lost him in June of this year.
My all-time favorite dog. 
That being said, the pups I got after him are german shepherds. They're 7months old now and rescues out of a shelter. Even TWO of them together dont compare 
(dont EVEN compare) to what an epic raising Kota was. I have a lot less energy now and I work a lot more. Im not single anymore, and don't have all the time in the world to spend with the dogs. I couldn't do a belgian now, and I know a dutch shepherd that was just like him, so I wouldn't get a dutch shepherd either. 
I just can't be without a shepherd (or two). I still have the australian shepherd mix, btw. She'll be 19 in january if her kidneys hold out.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Saratm_93 said:


> ok so i've been looking for a new "pup" for the family we have a 9 month old GSD and absolutely love her, but were trying to find an additional pup that will fit into our family. And i recently found a "dutch shepherd" pup and ive heard that theres no true breed called that but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that i may possibly end up rescuing?


 Lots of replies on the Dutch Shepherd. However, I wanted to jump in and say it would be far better to wait until your current dog is an adult before adding another puppy. At 9 months, she deserves your full attention as far as socialization and training goes. A general rule of thumb is it is best not to add another puppy until your current dog is where you want them to be in terms of training and socialization (no major issues or behavioral concerns that need addressed, trustworthy in the house, through all their potentially quirky developmental stages, well trained and reliable at least in terms of general obedience such as comes when called, walks nicely on leash, stays when asked, etc). For most people, this means waiting until your youngest dog is at least two but often closer to four before adding a puppy. If you do not have those thing in place with your current dog, more than likely one or the other of the dogs will not be getting everything they need in terms of training or socialization. When you get a young puppy, your attention for at least the first 6 months has to focus on ensuring the puppy gets everything the puppy needs in terms of socialization, early training, housetraining and teaching the puppy to be a good pet. There is also valid concern about raising two puppies close in age together developing what people call "littermate syndrome", although it isn't limited just to dogs from the same litter. The happens when two closer enough in age puppies become overly bonded to each other, creating their own little "pack". Often when this happens, one dog will become very bold and assertive, even aggressive while the other is shy, fearful and nervous. When dogs are overly bonded to each other, it makes any training much harder to accomplish. 



Nickyb said:


> Took this from another site
> "Dutch Shepherds and malinois are in essense the same breed. Dutchies are stripy or black malinois that the fci countries would not register. KNVP in Holland doesn't give a rip about registrations (and usually any registration they do, everyone knows is a complete fake, but they can get "papers" on anything you want). The KNVP wants dogs that work, it doesn't care what they are.


 While in unregistered working lines, they are considered one breed of different colors they are not really the same breed. In essence or otherwise. Malinois are actually one of four varieties of Belgian Shepherds and Dutch Shepherds are not one of the other varieties 

The KNPV lines tend to be a result of crossing multiple breeds with Mals and Dutchies being the most common but those can include other Belgian Shepherds, GSDs, pit bulls or whatever else they feel will add to creating the ultimate working dog. The KNPV dogs are almost like their own breed all together. They're malinois but not Malinois, dutch shepherds but not Dutch Shepherds if that makes sense. They are similar but different to their purebred counterparts. 

Like Mrs K I have found myself with an accidental Malinois. Father is from FCI working lines, dam is from KNPV lines. On the dam's side there are Mals, Dutchies and I believe GSDs in the pedigree a few generations back. It could be debated if his dam is a Malinois or not, depending on who you talk to. Some seem to consider the KNPV line dogs the only true Mals or Dutchies, even though they are not generally from pure breedings.



msvette2u said:


> At some point you have to wonder, why are there so many of these awesome dogs in rescue, and poor breeding/inexperienced owners would be top of my list if I were to guess.


 This is a topic all on it's own. There are so very many Mals in rescue, more and more all the time. The majority are from working breeders or just a generation or two removed from working breeders. I suspect it is the same with the Dutchies, considering what most people know as Dutchies are from mix lines with Mals and can be born in the same litter. Can you imagine if GSD rescue was always full of mostly dogs from working lines? The biggest issue IMO is because breeding these ultimate working/sport dogs is very much a business for many people involved. They aren't breeding these dogs because they so love the breed, carefully placing puppies in well screened homes and keeping in touch with owners. They are breeding them because they feel these dogs suit their needs the best, some of them admittedly don't even seem to enjoy them as dogs at all. The ones who aren't quite up to par as ultimate sport or police dogs are sold to anyone who has the money, often with no strings attached.

My Mal puppy came from a very much average pet owner who got his dam from a local breeder/importer/trainer of police dogs. According to what his breeder (and I use that term loosely) told me the dam is not a stable dog and is very fear reactive. She got the male from a different breeder and he sounds like a really nice dog. When the male was 9 months old, she decided that she'd try her hand at breeding police dogs. Much to her surprise, there were no takers for the puppies. Go figure, no market to sell puppies from untested, unproven parents, one of which was still a puppy. I got Roust from someone she sold him to, who put him on CL within 48 hours of having him. Free to any home. He has some reactivity issues, although not near as a bad as his dam from what I hear. Once I tracked her down after getting him, I offered to help her place her remaining five then 3 month old puppies. She wasn't interested. Said she didn't care if she just kept them all. I tried to explain the potential issues and even danger of having a pack of untrained, unsocialized Mals but she wouldn't listen. Told me she's always had multiple dogs and never had a problem. Said that even though the puppies never see strangers or leave her property, they aren't undersocialized and Mals just don't like strangers. Then when they were 5 months old, she told me she was sending them to the pound unless I could help her place them. A friend of mine worked out a deal to keep them at the boarding kennel she works at, so we were able to get them into ABMC. Their story is not at all uncommon in the breed unfortunately. Lots of people looking to make money and no one wanting to take responsibility for the dogs long term. I don't have an issue with people making money breeding quality dogs. I do think it's a problem when it's done with so little regard to the well being of the dogs or the impact such things have on the breed as a whole.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

honestly i cant believe people are still stereotyping breeds on behavioural traits - it just misleads newbs and just aint true.

for every crazy crackhead mal i will show you 100 couch potato mals.

categorising traits by breed is plain stupid - originally thats how breeds were formed that and lots of inbreeding. there were just hound type dogs, herders, fighters, pointers....that was when it was actually valid to categorise dogs by traits. that all finished long before any of us were born.

the OP needs to forget what breed the dog is and have a good look at the dog, spend some time with it, maybe take an experienced person with you that might perform some tests, hopefully trial the dog in your family situation then* make a decision on what you see* *over time in different environments* not a whole lot of internet mumbo-jumbo garbage about generalised breed behaviour traits that is easily falsifiable.

don't get me wrong, certain lines for sure have been selected for particular traits even the best specialised breeders will tell you it's still a crap shoot in the most controlled of breeding programs.

i made the error of listening to too much internet talk on selecting a breed - lucky i found some honest reputable breeders that just talked about what i could expect in that particular mating not about what the breed standard says this therefore all of this breed will be like this, just doesn't happen lke that in the real world.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I know someone who has a Dutchie and she does work him hard every day. They do Schutzhund, including tracking at least 4 days a week, the are doing IPO now, and they do herding. Plus they go hiking, and training of other sorts too. The dogs is brilliant, works well for her and lives with all kinds of animals, including two other dogs, rabbits, chickens, etc and 2 young kids. It works for her, but only because she is extremely active with the dog.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

x11 said:


> honestly i cant believe people are still stereotyping breeds on behavioural traits - it just misleads newbs and just aint true.
> 
> for every crazy crackhead mal i will show you 100 couch potato mals.
> 
> ...


I would love to see 1 PB couch potato Mal..... Yes sure, you let your Mal sit on a couch for the first 4 years of its life, guess what, the poor pup aint getting off the couch. What's your experience with the breed? 




As a side note, I figured I'd add a picture of my trainer's DS, he does this every time Zoey comes in :roflmao:


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

x11 said:


> honestly i cant believe people are still stereotyping breeds on behavioural traits - it just misleads newbs and just aint true.
> 
> for every crazy crackhead mal i will show you 100 couch potato mals.
> 
> ...


can't agree with this. if you go to a reputable breeder, they strive to improve the breed and breed to the standard. part of the standard calls for the dog to be able to do its job. if you want a working dog you dont choose a chinese crested, if you want a herding dog you dont get a lab. you choose certain breeds because of certain characteristics. choosing a mal, hoping it will act differently than what it is bred for, imho, is a recipe for failure.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

don't mean to be argumentative but i think this is so obviously untrue in general. how many poodles are good at hunting truffles lol...your postiton is too silly to argue becuase it is so out of whack with reality. 

are you the sort of guys that write the breed hype for breeders web-site design


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Breed traits don't matter? I suppose that's why there are so many Shih Tzus in Schutzhund trials and so many Newfoundlands running terrier races...


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

no i don't write for breeders, but i do believe what i posted. when i commit to aprox 12 years to a pet, i try to increase my odds of getting what i expect. having said this, there are different flavors in many breeds. there can be an exception to standards, but they are not norm. i didn't find your post argumentative at all. its good to share and hear other sides of a discussion.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

my point is that so many newbs get misled by thinking all i do to get a dog to do X is look at the breed standard and see what it says about X and hey presto just get on the first web-site that comes up in google and order a dog that will do X because it is an X dog.

the mathematical probabiltiy of that happening is 1/(real big number)


greeders of course like to maintain the myth and rely on newbs to believe in fairy tales. fact the average gsd will not protect you or yours any more than any other random breed or mutt just like the average BC won't herd sheep much more than...etc

there is a reason why high acheiving breeders put so much time, thought and effort into their programs and they deserve the respect for it. they don't just go oh here are two random gsd's so i will breed them over and over and produce...police dogs - that is just stupid.

so my point to the OP was he should be more concerned with knowing exactly what he wants in a dog and forget this breed stereotyping nonsense and see if that particular dog of interest matches up with his wants and needs and to do this he should get an experienced non-breed specific trainer to assist, THEN if likes the dog and can provide for its needs then it might be a good deal.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> I.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the cutest freakin' thing I've seen in a while


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

x11 said:


> my point is that so many newbs get misled by thinking all i do to get a dog to do X is look at the breed standard and see what it says about X and hey presto just get on the first web-site that comes up in google and order a dog that will do X because it is an X dog.
> 
> the mathematical probabiltiy of that happening is 1/(real big number)
> 
> ...


Help me out here because it sounds like you are contradicting yourself? If breed traits don't matter and getting a dog is nothing more than a crapshoot, then why would it matter that the OP knows what s/he wants in a dog? How does one FIND that if there is no way to predict how a dog will act? If being a GSD does not make a GSD any more likely to act a certain way then why *wouldn't* putting random dogs together meet your needs?

Check your math...all of my dogs so far have acted the way I predicted before I even had the puppies in my hands, just based on knowing the pedigree and observing dogs in the pedigree. Nothing about the dogs I've chosen and how I've raised, trained, titled them has been a crapshoot. There's a good reason I've always been very satisfied with my dogs, their health, and their temperaments. I do not spend years researching and waiting for a crapshoot.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You can't make a herder out of a Husky.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

you are overstating things like others are - it totally matters what the OP wants in a dog - he has to see (with guidance of an experienced person) if that dog is it. could be any freakin breed or non-breed. it's what that dog is and what he wants in a dog that matters - you don't determine that by looking at a breed standard.

not gonna take yr whole thread or anyone else's apart but "...How does one FIND that if there is no way to predict how a dog will act?...."

by looking at the dog, the parents, the puppy, what that breeder has produced consistently or not......sheesh give up yr breed propaganda it does not help the newbs. 

i must be (TERRIBLE)at explaining the obvious - what are a big chunk of threads about on dog forums - what do you think i will get when i cross this with this. if it was a whole breed thing those massive amount of threads would be pointless as you would just say oh its a X breed then it will do X cos thats what the standard says for that breed.

you can't be that thick, what is yr point? 






Liesje said:


> Help me out here because it sounds like you are contradicting yourself? If breed traits don't matter and getting a dog is nothing more than a crapshoot, then why would it matter that the OP knows what s/he wants in a dog? How does one FIND that if there is no way to predict how a dog will act? If being a GSD does not make a GSD any more likely to act a certain way then why *wouldn't* putting random dogs together meet your needs?
> 
> Check your math...all of my dogs so far have acted the way I predicted before I even had the puppies in my hands, just based on knowing the pedigree and observing dogs in the pedigree. Nothing about the dogs I've chosen and how I've raised, trained, titled them has been a crapshoot. There's a good reason I've always been very satisfied with my dogs, their health, and their temperaments. I do not spend years researching and waiting for a crapshoot.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thick? OK please enlighten me then, how would I "look at the dog" before it has been conceived?

It seems you are talking about breeding just based on a breed standard? That is so vague. If guess if THAT is your point they yeah, it goes without saying. Of course no one can know what a particular dog will be like just based on a breed standard but there are traits a given breed *should* possess and if you want to know whether they do, you don't have to actually wait for the dog to be born and test it yourself to find out.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Thick? OK please enlighten me then, how would I "look at the dog" before it has been conceived?
> 
> It *seems you are talking about breeding just based on a breed standard*? *That is so vague*. If guess if THAT is your point they yeah, it goes without saying. Of course *no one can know what a particular dog will be like just based on a breed standard* but there are traits a given breed **should** possess and if you want to know whether they do, you don't have to actually wait for the dog to be born and test it yourself to find out.


if i could repost my intial words then this is what i would have said above in bold.

he the OP is looking at a young living *individual* dog - he needs to look close at *THAT* dog, i was trying to correct the others who were saying DS this, DS that, mals are this, mals are all that....*just not true on the individual dog level*.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally I'd look at more than just the dog, but the whole pedigree (and who bred the dog, and why).


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Personally I'd look at more than just the dog, but the whole pedigree (and who bred the dog, and why).


sure - i can not remember now, are we not talking about a rescue dog here?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

yes we are, and the OP was just looking for a pup to fit in with his family not looking for multiple line bred national FRIII prospect which would be a specific kind of line;

ok so i've been *looking for a new* "*pup*" for the family we have a 9 month old GSD and absolutely love her, but were *trying to find an additional pup that will fit into our family.* And i recently found a "dutch shepherd" pup and ive heard that theres no true breed called that but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that* i may possibly end up rescuing*?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

X11....kind of proving lies point....a dutch shepherd rescue "pup" with a seemingly unknown background.....and no information about drives, etc.....so what we have to go off of is that a puppy in rescue IS a crapshoot in the sense of not knowing how they will really mature through the "fear period", sketchy nerves, etc...

Point everyone is trying to make is that it is NOT a breed that people should be aiming for for a nice household pet...

But as others have pointed out this might not eben be a dutchie.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep, I mean, if you want something *really* specific, rescue might not be the way to go (and before rescue people jump on my back, I own a rescue dog and foster for two different rescues!). I've seen on here before where people are thinking about trying a new breed or line of a breed and a popular opinion is to get one's feet wet with rescue and foster....I guess I disagree. If you want to know what it's like to live with a good example of a certain breed/line/type then get one from someone who can vouch for the dog's health and behavior actually being indicative of that particular breed/line/type.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

x11 ahhhhh.... i think i see what you are saying. if someone one wants a gsd to enter shutzhund training, a rescue gsd nay not be able to do this training. just because the club down the street consists of all gsd does not mean all gsd are able to do this.. in this case a dutch shepherd, that we know nothing about, may fit into her family as the op intends. you are correct, we have to observe the total dog and not just the standard or breed traits. correct me if this is not what you were trying to get across. imho, the only way to see if this adoption will work is to try and see.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok, this is like that rottweiler thread. *could* you getan out of standard, laid back lazy dutchie? Sure, but why fight the breed standard? They are not meant to be house dogs for your average pet dog owner....nor should be. Imo people start liking mals and dutchie s the way they like gsds and those breeds will not be far behind the divide we see in our own breed (and I think to a certain extent that is already happening with mals). 

To me it goes to don't try to fit a square in a round hole....

If this dog is indeed a dutchie, I guess why take the chance that this puppy would indeed be the antithesis to the standard? If you aren't looking for the type of dog that does meet the standard then pick another breed...


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