# Giardia and Coccidia



## &RIGGS (Nov 30, 2011)

I just got back from the e-vet and all is well (well relatively, anyway). I came home to a 12-week old puppy who had a very watery poop accident in his crate (his first crate accident ever) AND had thrown up...also in his crate. He has never thrown up before and my boyfriend let me know he had mucousy diarrhea earlier in the day as well.

I've been extremely paranoid about parvo, so I took him to the e-vet (not my regular vet). As it turns out he has giardia and coccidia. He was diagnosed with giardia at 9 weeks, took his prescribed medication (Metronidazole) and the vet never checked again. Well, apparently it's still there and it seems that my vet should have run a second test to confirm it was gone. I guess I need to look at changing vet. 

I'm wondering if this is common: giardia not going away after a course of treatment. The e-vet prescribed Metronidazole plus Panacur as well as some probiotic pills and paste to help re-balance his system. 

I'm hoping this gets his system back on track. It's tough to see the poor little guy have to go through this! Does anybody have any reassurance (or horror stories) about giardia/coccidia?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

From what I've read and looked at, both can recur because they dwell in the digestive tract and re-emerge with stress.
At least coccidia can...I am not sure so much about giardia. 
Let me know if he improves. We have a kiddo here with similar issues.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

This is very common in puppies and young dogs.....yes, your puppy will get better.
It is a treatable condition with proper antibiotics/meds.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

yes it's possible to not go away after the first round of treatment (giardia) it can be a pain to get rid of. The vet DEFINITELY should have done a recheck. I think it's great you were so quick to get your pup checked out glad it wasn't something too serious. I've dealt with Giardia before with Jinx and it's not fun but not the end of the world and once they start responding to meds it's so much better. Also, it might have gone away and your pup might have been reexposed. It's pretty simple to pick up giardia its a parasite if I'm not mistaken and it is generally passed through feces so if you didn't clean your yard properly from the last time he could have gotten reinfected there, water supply like a puddle he drank from that had another animal run through the puddle with the stuff on its feet etc... Really easy to pick up and not toooooo hard to get rid of just take a breath and since its been diagnosed and meds prescribed you should be in smooth sailing from here for the most part.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

The treatment for coccidia is NOT the same as with Giardia. I have run into this before with vets. You need Albon
Coccidiosis: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention

This works. I have used it and passed it on to several others whose vets did the same thing  this can be ordered through Amazon

Forgot to mention. Coccidiosis is comonly called shipping fever and can occur after shipping,stress etc. Vets are not always um,correct  
My vet and other friend's vets prescribed the same stuff and our pups stayed ill until I ordered the above


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think I've seen better luck treating giardia with panacur (double dose than what is used for regular worming) so hopefully that does the trick this time.


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## muddypaw (Jan 8, 2012)

we had similiar issues. My vet gave a Ponazuril shot for the coccidia and Metronidazole 500 mg for the giardia. It took a week and then she was better. If she goes to the dog park and drinks the water, usually she has runny stools for a couple of days again.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

For giardia, go to Tractor supply and get Panacur 10% goat wormer. (better check the dose - it may be 1ml for every 5 pounds). Treatment is usually 3 days - it will also will get intestinal worms.

For coccidia, Albon is the trick. 2ml/10 pounds for 6 days. Wait a week, then retreat.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Goats take a higher dosage of most medications - don't go out and buy goat wormer when the vet already gave you some dosed for dogs.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Doc...that's what we use, but we also use Flagyl too.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The problem is, if you advise non-experienced pet owners to run out and buy stuff at a feed store to "save money", you're going to start seeing resistant strains.
Most of us who treat our dogs using meds we purchased elsewhere, have years of experience plus we asked our vet in the first place, if this or that would work.

The vet told me yesterday they are starting to see resistance and this is solely due to overuse of some medications and undermedicating others.

You should not be guessing at what is wrong, you should be getting a fecal and then asking the vet for advise on what to use, and the dosage thereof. And this would be the best advice to give people who have never even heard of coccidia/giardia or how to treat it.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

msvette...the dosage for goats is actually less...with the Safe-Guard 10%.
It is 100mg/ml.....
A 25lb goat needs 0.5ml....a 25lb puppy needs 5mls.
A goats digestive track is not the same as a canines......so dosages are different, they actually need *less*.

ETA:...but I do agree with you about not buying over the counter without having knowledge or correct information. ALWAYS check stools with Vets and get the proper meds and dosages BEFORE administering ANY medication.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes, dosages are given for _goats_, not dogs.
If you want to use it, fine - but please ask your vet for a dosage before just dumping the stuff down a dog's throat. 
And since the OP already has the meds from the vet, why should they run out and buy more??


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

My vet actually gave me the dosages (the same as Doc mentioned).
The vet we use is a large and small animal vet...so many of his medications are used to treat both, such as Ivermectin, Sage-Guard, Panacur, Albon, Corrid etc..etc..
I would ALWAYS check with my vet before administering any meds or dosages.
And I would suggest the same for others....


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## &RIGGS (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks to everyone who responded. There is always such an abundance of good information and advice here and I truly appreciate it. For now, I will continue with the vet provided medication and get a recheck in 2 weeks. If Riggs is still having issues, I'll mention Albon and get permission/advice from the vet before administering. I agree that it could cause as much harm or more to start giving meds myself, but it is certainly very helpful to be armed with information. It always helps to be able to have an intelligent conversation...be it with your vet or otherwise!

Thank you again to all.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Goats take a higher dosage of most medications - don't go out and buy goat wormer when the vet already gave you some dosed for dogs.


you really should comment on things you don't have first hand knowledge on. Safe Guard Goat wormer is 10% Panacur. The same strength you give dogs. it's 18.00 at tractor supply.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:


> you really should comment on things you don't have first hand knowledge on.


Ditto, DOC. Oh, and I'll add, don't ASSume things about me that you have no knowledge of.

I have two bottles of the stuff in my cupboard right now. See, we own goats. And dogs. And we also have a dog rescue.
I'd still advise folks new to dogs, learning about diseases to_ listen to their vet_ rather than run out and buy a bunch of meds from the feed store.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> My vet actually gave me the dosages (the same as Doc mentioned).
> The vet we use is a large and small animal vet...so many of his medications are used to treat both, such as Ivermectin, Sage-Guard, Panacur, Albon, Corrid etc..etc..
> I would ALWAYS check with my vet before administering any meds or dosages.
> And I would suggest the same for others....


I guess after you have dealt with pups as long as we have, we know what to. I never said to go buy meds and use them. I just gave advice as to what to use ONCE the problem has been identified - which is done at your vets office.

Why some people on this thread has to argue about anything that is posted is just dumb. 10% Panacur is the same no matter if it comes from your vet or a animal supply store. Some vets will not prescribe Panacur for Giardia - but I know for a fact it works much better than the other stuff.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So you know what protozoa is affecting them, without even looking a stool sample? Amazing. I don't "dealing with pups" for 100 yrs. can do that?

Why some people think they need to get on here and advise new owners about their dog's illness, when they did not _view_ the new owner's puppy and the new owner took the dog to the vet (who did view it, and in fact do a stool sample!), and have medications on their shelf is "just dumb".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:


> Some vets will not prescribe Panacur for Giardia - but I know for a fact it works much better than the other stuff.


Because vets are seeing more and more cases of giardia resistant to Panacure/fenbedazole, but then again if you haven't been in lately you'd probably not know that.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Ditto, DOC. Oh, and I'll add, don't ASSume things about me that you have no knowledge of.
> 
> I have two bottles of the stuff in my cupboard right now. See, we own goats. And dogs. And we also have a dog rescue.
> I'd still advise folks new to dogs, learning about diseases to_ listen to their vet_ rather than run out and buy a bunch of meds from the feed store.


read my post - it gives sound advice to someone that has had the problem identified. 

If you own goats and ever gave them Safe Guard Goat Wormer, then you would know that it is 10% Panacur - the exact same dose that is labled for Giardia in dogs in the UK but not in the US. Therefore, you will not find a dose for dogs on a bottle of 10% Panacur sold in the US. However, if you want to get rid of Giardia the fastest and most cost effective way, once it is diagnosed by your vet, Panacur is the answer.

If you don't like respondes, why can't you ignore them instead of exposing your authoritative remarks. You must think my name - Doc - is a nick name. Well its not.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If I'm at the vet already I'm going to ask, "what do you recommend". I'm not going to run off guessing at whatever I'm supposed to use, and the dosage thereof.
And since you're conveniently at the vet, they usually give you the stuff, or charge little to nothing for it, so why go to a feed store at all? And to the OP's credit, that's what he/she did and the puppy is on the way to good health again.

Did you know feed stores don't even exist in cities? Seattle (for instance) you cannot find a feed store around.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Because vets are seeing more and more cases of giardia resistant to Panacure/fenbedazole, but then again if you haven't been in lately you'd probably not know that.


I don't think you are correct in that response. Most vets haven't been able to identified Giardia because of suspect lab procedures - it is still very difficult to identify.

Panacur isn't labled for Giardia in the US. I'm not sure how they are finding resistance to a product that shouldn't be prescribed by vets to start with. Of course, there are different strains of Giardia. And the fact that labled products aren't really effective and reoccurance is common may contribute to the "resistance" talk.

If you have seen as many stools as a breeder has then you know how things smell and look. When you experience that, you take the pup in to get positive identification. Of course, as a rescurer and animal expert, you already know all this.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> If I'm at the vet already I'm going to ask, "what do you recommend". I'm not going to run off guessing at whatever I'm supposed to use, and the dosage thereof.
> And since you're conveniently at the vet, they usually give you the stuff, or charge little to nothing for it, so why go to a feed store at all? And to the OP's credit, that's what he/she did and the puppy is on the way to good health again.
> 
> Did you know feed stores don't even exist in cities? Seattle (for instance) you cannot find a feed store around.


Get a prescription for Albon from you vet. If he just gives it to you, send it to me. Same goes for Panacur.

I don't have the capacity to memorize which cities in the US don't have feed stores, sorry for the oversight. I feel sorry for your goats if they live in Seattle.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Interesting, I guess I'll call my vet Monday and tell her she's wrong because a guy on the internet said so.

And suspect lab procedures? How tough is it to view a stool sample with a microscope and tell that's what's in the sample?
Giardia

I've seen tons of stools in the last 10yrs. and I "know" what coccidia smells like. I know what parvo smells like, etc. But throwing different meds at a dog (and if one doesn't work, switch it up and throw another one at it??) without a diagnosis is where the resistance comes in. Are you going to argue that point too?

Vets know about using fenbendazole, but they do not prescribe it routinely. Cattle Ivermectin/Ivomec is off-label in dogs, too, yet our vet (one that doesn't use fenbendazole regularly) will prescribe it for mange. Hmmm.

So...you're saying there's different strains of giardia, so how do _you_ know which med to use for it? Or can you _tell_ that by looking at the poop?? 

I never claimed to be an expert, and in fact am not the one telling people all over the board to "just buy some stuff at the feed store, it's cheaper!"



> I feel sorry for your goats if they live in Seattle.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvett
I am so impressed with your responses, I am not going to try to match wits with you. You have an answer for everything and no respect for anyone who may differ with you. I will roll myself back to my room now and eat my gruel. I am sorry my posts are not to your standards - they never will be. Forgive me for trying to help. I will try to withhold my thoughts in any thread where you post.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Nothing to add except that there are TONS of feed stores in the Seattle AREA! I know a ton of people in that area with Livestock and horses and they frequent feed stores! 

If you READ many of Doc's posts instead of being argumentative and RUDE you would see where he stated MULTIPLE times that you TAKE the puppy to the VET FIRST and get a DIAGNOSIS!!!! Then go from there!


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Doc said:


> msvett
> I am so impressed with your responses, I am not going to try to match wits with you. You have an answer for everything and no respect for anyone who may differ with you. I will roll myself back to my room now and eat my gruel. I am sorry my posts are not to your standards - they never will be. Forgive me for trying to help. I will try to withhold my thoughts in any thread where you post.


 
Come down to the police portion of the board anytime and post


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> Come down to the police portion of the board anytime and post


Just don't shoot me ... eace:eace:


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> Did you know feed stores don't even exist in cities? Seattle (for instance) you cannot find a feed store around.


Took me all of about 5 seconds on Google to find these:

Belltown Feed & Seed 2218 2nd Avenue, Seattle, WA 98121 (206) 441-8170 ‎ 

Portage Bay Grange Feed & Mercantile 4110 Roosevelt Ave NE, Seattle, WA 98105


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> And suspect lab procedures? How tough is it to view a stool sample with a microscope and tell that's what's in the sample?



Giardia antigen testsThe traditional diagnosis for giardiasis consists of performing an ova and parasite (O+P) exam of one to three stool specimens on non-consecutive days2 Several days of specimen collection are needed to improve sensitivity. Stool specimens may be preserved by fomalin or zinc sulfate concentration methods.3 Approximately 85%-90% of cases are detected when three separate stool samples are examined. However, in clinical practice, typically only a single stool exam is performed. The passage of cysts is often sporadic *so many cases (>50%) of giardiasis will be missed with a single O+P examination*, resulting in underdiagnosis. Stool microscopy is relatively inexpensive, but it does require a skilled technician and may be a time consuming process.​Giardiasis - CAPC Parasite Recommendations*Diagnosis *



Giardiasis is commonly misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed because of intermittent shedding and difficulty identifying cysts and trophozoites. Yeasts may be mistaken for _Giardia_ cysts due to their similar size and shape; however, yeasts often show evidence of budding and do not have the internal structures seen in _Giardia_ (i.e., median bodies, two to four nuclei).
Dogs and cats may have subclinical infections and show no signs of disease.
Various tests are used, including direct smear (with or without a fixative stain), fecal flotation via centrifugation, fecal ELISA, and direct fluorescent antibody assay.
CAPC recommends testing _symptomatic_ (intermittently or consistently diarrheic) dogs and cats with a combination of direct smear, fecal flotation with centrifugation, and a sensitive, specific fecal ELISA optimized for use in companion animals. Repeat testing performed over several (usually alternating) days may be necessary to identify infection.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> Yes, dosages are given for _goats_, not dogs.
> If you want to use it, fine - but please ask your vet for a dosage before just dumping the stuff down a dog's throat.


With this wonderful thing called the Internet you can find all SORTS of information ... including the vet recommended dosage of things - like Panacur:


Medi-Vet - Panacur Product InformationDESCRIPTION

 Panacur® (fenbendazole) Granules 22.2% contains the active anthelmintic, fenbendazole. The chemical name of fenbendazole is methyl 5-(phenylthio)-2-benzimidazole carbarnate.
The CAS Registry Number is 43210-67-9.
Panacur® Granules 22.2% contains 222 mg/g of fenbendazole.

...

FOR DOGS

DOSAGE

50 mg/kg (22.7 mg/lb.) daily for 3 consecutive days for the removal of ascarids _(Toxocara canis, Toxascaris leonina)_, hookworms _(Ancylostoma caninum, Uncinaria stenocephaia)_, whipworms _(Trichuris vulpis)_, and tapeworms _(Taenia pisiformis)._
​


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