# Well, that was scary.



## Brodi (Oct 30, 2016)

Yesterday I took Mysti to an event put on by our local humane society. It was the first time they'd ever done it and it showed. 

It took place in a fenced in football field sized area with vendors, a dock diving tank, a lure course, stage, costume contest and loud music. There was just too many dogs and clueless owners. 

The place was full of dogs of all ages, breeds, sizes, sexes (altered and intact), and temperaments. Dogs were in other dogs faces/space, lots of growling and barking. People had small and toy breeds on flexi leashes that were all the way out. People ignoring their dogs while they talked, ignoring dog body language, etc. 

The lure course looked fun, but was too chaotic for me to risk it. Anyone could just go get a number and enter their dog. I saw dogs attempting to escape from the poorly enclosed (lest then 2ft fence) area, ignore their owners and almost start fights. 

I left after Mysti snapped at a dog that shot out (leashed) from between it's owners legs. Got some good food samples, but dang that was a mess!


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

And those clueless owners will say what a great success it was! And they're the same owners who wonder why pets aren't allowed at dog shows, agility trials, or other dog sports events.


----------



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Those environments can be a great way to test how well your obedience training has paid off if you stay at the edges of it, but everyone seems to think their dogs are going to enjoy meeting up - like people do - and get in some nice big group to share how they got ball and what a good dog they are. Instead you have dogs experiencing utter chaos with oblivious owners. It's innocent naivety, but it can certainly be dangerous if people just assume that every dog out there wants to make friends.


----------



## Brodi (Oct 30, 2016)

Femfa said:


> Those environments can be a great way to test how well your obedience training has paid off if you stay at the edges of it, but everyone seems to think their dogs are going to enjoy meeting up - like people do - and get in some nice big group to share how they got ball and what a good dog they are. Instead you have dogs experiencing utter chaos with oblivious owners. It's innocent naivety, but it can certainly be dangerous if people just assume that every dog out there wants to make friends.


Or to tell what your dogs breaking point is. Poor Mysti had a panic attack! I've walked her in large groups before, but this was too much; I came in with a happy dog and left with a panting, slinking, anxious mess. 

One major issue we had was people STANDING IN THE WAY! It's like people in stores, but with dogs they are completely ignoring! 

They also had two entrances that were both "entrances and exits", so we ended up having to walk past a large St Bernard X puppy that wanted to play while Mysti was pressed between me and the fence. Gah!



Deb said:


> And those clueless owners will say what a great success it was! And they're the same owners who wonder why pets aren't allowed at dog shows, agility trials, or other dog sports events.


Spot on. I don't think the humane society staff noticed how insane it was. They just smiled happily as the people and their dogs crammed into the field.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Certainly glad you and your doggy managed to get unscathed! Certainly not a good environment for a young developing dog/puppy. But an excellent proving ground for proofing a dog! 

I say that from a theoretical perspective ... I seriously doubt I'd have gone into that "Organized Chaos??"


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sounds like a nightmare!Poor Mysti


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You mentioned that some of the dogs were intact and some altered, could you explain how you knew this, and why it matters?


----------



## Freyja (May 24, 2016)

There's been a huge number of doggie events around us at the moment and I've been dying to take Rollo to them just so we can test his obedience and understand where he's at focus wise (outside of classes)... But this just confirms my worries with other owners being completely oblivious as to their surroundings and their dogs. :frown2:


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Freyja said:


> There's been a huge number of doggie events around us at the moment and I've been dying to take Rollo to them just so we can test his obedience and understand where he's at focus wise (outside of classes)... But this just confirms my worries with other owners being completely oblivious as to their surroundings and their dogs. :frown2:


I would not let one person's bad experience ruin things for you and your dogs. One poorly set up and run event does not mean they are all like that.

Instead of taking your puppy to an event to test his obedience and focus, why not take him to an event and just enjoy spending time with you dog?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry that Mysti snapped at a dog. It certainly doesn't make our breed look good. 

People on this site, and maybe formidable dog owners in general, tend to place all the blame for this behavior on the other dog's owner. But we have to recognize a little truth here. Many dog breeds/mixes do not have trouble with other dogs. So these people walk around with their dog without considering the fact that there are people out there with dog aggressive dogs. 

As we think: they shouldn't let their dog come right into my dog's face, they may think: why do they have such a vicious dog in public? Why don't they have that thing muzzled? Aren't those dogs banned? Those dogs should be banned! 

While you can come on here are find that most people are pretty sympathetic, we have probably all had a dog that might snap at another dog if it runs right up into our dog's face. The thing is, it doesn't help.

You will never make the vast majority of dog owners change to suit your choice of breed's peculiarities. And, sooner or later, a judge is going to rule in favor of the small dog, even thought the large dog was encroached upon. Furthermore, every incidents that sits negatively in the general public's mind about our breed, will effect us when it comes to buying insurance, renting with dogs, and whether dogs will be allowed in places. 

The very fact that people tend to be wary of our breed makes it that much more dangerous for our dogs. They sense fear, and people who are afraid, sometimes want to prove to themselves that they are not afraid, or want to overcome the fear, and they try to pet the dog anyway. The dog is reading the person's unease, and it increases its unease, and when that person jerks, pulls away, acts oddly, some dogs will react. 

So, folks, if you want to own a GSD, you need to make a pact with GSD owners, something like:

1. I will do my very best to ensure that my dog does not give anyone any reason to fear this breed (except in situations that involve severe pain or felonious behavior on the part of a human). 

2. When I notice other owners of my breed, acting in a way that is likely to create bad press, I will try to help them see why that isn't a good idea, and what they might do differently.


----------



## Freyja (May 24, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would not let one person's bad experience ruin things for you and your dogs. One poorly set up and run event does not mean they are all like that.
> 
> Instead of taking your puppy to an event to test his obedience and focus, why not take him to an event and just enjoy spending time with you dog?


Oh most definitely! We do almost everything together, and he loves people and can focus with them around. His drawback is when other dogs are around though, so I was thinking having an event that incorporates at least a few others would be a good way to 'test' him? (I use 'test' loosely, would never want to place him in a stressful situation as OP unfortunately had to experience) :smile2:


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Someone mentioned dog shows, well, that is what they are like. The classic in Cleveland, thousands of dogs, owners, gear, people standing in the way, entrances are also exits, carts, crates, grooming tables, vendors, agility rings, conformation rings, obedience and rally rings, kids, adults, dogs of every shape and size, some of the barking, some rooing, some whining. 

There are differences. Most of the dogs are intact, and most of the owners are dog-people, have spent money to be there, have prepared their dog prior to being there, and have a goal in mind. They are also governed by the AKC (if it is an AKC show). What this means is that if your dog bites someone, or bites another dog, or if you are aggressive to your dog and someone reports it, the AKC can fine you and ban your dog from competitions. They can suspend your privileges which means banning you from competitions as well, and other AKC privileges. I don't know anyone that has had sanctions put on them, but if you read the review, in the back they list stuff like that. And it isn't just AKC, people who are members of other organizations can be pulled onto the carpet for their behavior or their dog's. That won't happen in a local humane society event. 

My guess of a local humane society event, would be people who love dogs, maybe take them to some classes, maybe not. We have a boo-wow walk here. And people put costumes on their dog and walk for charity. I've not gone, but some of the gals from dog-classes do. They have fun. But everyone has to keep their expectations realistic. 

That being said, one of my dogs was charged by a Newfoundland in an AKC show. The classic. Thousands of dogs. One incident in probably a dozen years of my going there. I also saw an Akita biting its owner in Rally. That was freaky. But Rally is a gateway program. Some people are hard-core. But for many it is a good way to break into the arena of dog-sports, and those people are not as experienced. The only way to become experienced is to get your feet wet and practice. Some people do exceptional in Rally Novice A, because they do not sign up until their dogs are ready, they do the work.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Selzer said: _There are differences. Most of the dogs are intact, and most of the owners are dog-people, have spent money to be there, have prepared their dog prior to being there, and have a goal in mind._ 


This is the main difference between dog sporting events, be they conformation shows, rally or any other dog sport. The people involved are generally dog savvy. The general public affairs are not full of dog savvy people. That said, you can still enjoy them if you choose. But you need to have situational awareness at all times. You need to read your dog and others. Most show dogs will not stress in an unusual situation, they're used to chaos around them. When I had my fire my show dogs were in an expen. It was night, raining, lights of different colors flashing, giant vehicles coming and going, sirens, strange people in strange outfits. But the firemen would take their breaks by walking over to pet them, still in full dress. The dogs clamored for being the one petted. It started at four and wasn't over until 1 am. 


So it's best to know your dog before going to a public event. Maybe go first without your dog and check it out. If you see it's something you both will enjoy, then go back and bring him. If not, then nothing lost.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Freyja said:


> Oh most definitely! We do almost everything together, and he loves people and can focus with them around. His drawback is when other dogs are around though, so I was thinking having an event that incorporates at least a few others would be a good way to 'test' him? (I use 'test' loosely, would never want to place him in a stressful situation as OP unfortunately had to experience) :smile2:


OK I don't know your background ... and has been pointed out in the past ... I'm not big on asking questions. 

But that said ... your half way right! Crap like that event is an "excellent opportunity" to proof your dog!" But no ...you don't take an untested, trained dog into that kind of chaos! That's not training it's "stress and pressure" if you dog reacted poorly it's becasue he still lacks confidence in you. 

You need to do the groundwork first ... see here "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" and "Why Dog Parks are a Bad idea.":

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html 


My dogs fully understand that daddy has there back. No out of control gets close enough to them to do with harm without going thru me first! Out of control dogs can Bark Bark Bark in there face till they turn Blue and they get "Zero" reaction from my dogs. But that took training and letting them get "struck" would be a set back. I'm don't want to spend my time "fixing" issues with my dog caused by other peoples out of control "beast" regardless of size!

So in the chaos you encountered ... my dogs would do fine casue that is how they were trained, me yeah most likely I'd have still passed out from stress! That situation is waaayyyy out of my comfort zone.  

But ... what you want to look are "organized pack walks."All dogs on leashes" and someone is in charge. That's a big city kinda thing. It's once year event out here. Dayton Valley Days ... GoldFish, Lizards Goats and Miniature Horses! 

But no harm done and now you know.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> OK I don't know your background ... and has been pointed out in the past ... I'm not big on asking questions.
> 
> But that said ... your half way right! Crap like that event is an "excellent opportunity" to proof your dog!" But no ...you don't take an untested, trained dog into that kind of chaos! That's not training it's "stress and pressure" if you dog reacted poorly it's becasue he still lacks confidence in you.
> 
> ...


Hmmm that should have been* untested untrained dog* ... the time out thing ....


----------



## Brodi (Oct 30, 2016)

selzer said:


> I am sorry that Mysti snapped at a dog. It certainly doesn't make our breed look good.
> 
> People on this site, and maybe formidable dog owners in general, tend to place all the blame for this behavior on the other dog's owner. But we have to recognize a little truth here. Many dog breeds/mixes do not have trouble with other dogs. So these people walk around with their dog without considering the fact that there are people out there with dog aggressive dogs.
> 
> ...


If it helps, most people wouln't thing of Mysti, who is a possible GSD X, as a GSD. 
Here's a pic that was taken before it got crazy. She doesn't quit know what to make of the woman's costume. 








But someone elses GSD was a model citizen. I saw this beutiful boy getting A LOT of attention. 











selzer said:


> You mentioned that some of the dogs were intact and some altered, could you explain how you knew this, and why it matters?


I saw some well endowed boys walking around. They also were the ones I saw doing the most growling, posturing, etc.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Freyja said:


> There's been a huge number of doggie events around us at the moment and I've been dying to take Rollo to them just so we can test his obedience and understand where he's at focus wise (outside of classes)... But this just confirms my worries with other owners being completely oblivious as to their surroundings and their dogs. :frown2:


Tagging on ...now you (as do all of us) have a better understanding of what a poorly organized event looks like! So ... don't go to one! As I understand "pack walks" are organized on leash events!

It would be a calculated risk ... and yeah most likely there will still be badly behaved dogs there but the number of owners actually paying attention to there dogs will be much greater. Smartphones notwithstanding.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Brodi said:


> If it helps, most people wouln't thing of Mysti, who is a possible GSD X, as a GSD.
> Here's a pic that was taken before it got crazy. She doesn't quit know what to make of the woman's costume.
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, owning a dog is a privilege, not a right. Your dog does look like a GSD, but whatever the breed, we own formidable dogs, and if we want to continue to own formidable dogs we cannot afford to let them misbehave in public. That hurts all dog owners. Remember, the evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones -- it takes a hundred or more good, exceptional GSDs to cancel out one that gives a negative impression.


Bolded: as I mentioned before, at dog shows, thousands of dogs, most of them intact. To show in conformation -- vast majority at a show, they must be intact. And most of the obedience/rally dogs are intact, though they do not need to be. I am not familiar with agility, but there is no requirement to be altered or not. Figure, thousands of intact dogs. We don't have that kind of behavior there. Yesterday in class, a pit bull next to me was showing off his goods, and he was more interested in me than in the pretty little werewolf next to me. But then, the werewolf is not in heat, another of my bitches is, so the dog was sniffing my shoes. But he wasn't acting up at all. None of the dogs were. This is not a problem with hormones or glands. It is a problem with inexperienced/ignorant owners.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Someone mentioned dog shows, well, that is what they are like. The classic in Cleveland, thousands of dogs, owners, gear, people standing in the way, entrances are also exits, carts, crates, grooming tables, vendors, agility rings, conformation rings, obedience and rally rings, kids, adults, dogs of every shape and size, some of the barking, some rooing, some whining.


Ugh ... I passed out just thinking about it ... but I'm back now.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Ugh ... I passed out just thinking about it ... but I'm back now.


It's crazy, but FUN!!! One year I had the little girls with me when they were 2. And they were following in my wake in the vendor area and this HAG, with show dogs, was trying to get her ring, only that was over by where the rings were, not in the vendor area, and she snarled at my little niece (a baby!), saying dogs have the right of way!!! 

Whatever, there are some crazies, more human crazies than dog-crazies. The dogs are mostly great. 

Last year, my nieces, 9 and almost 9 years old, walked Mufasa (almost 2 years old) out for me, while I carried all the gear.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> It's crazy, but FUN!!! One year I had the little girls with me when they were 2. And they were following in my wake in the vendor area and this HAG, with show dogs, was trying to get her ring, only that was over by where the rings were, not in the vendor area, and she snarled at my little niece (a baby!), saying dogs have the right of way!!!
> 
> Whatever, there are some crazies, more human crazies than dog-crazies. The dogs are mostly great.
> 
> Last year, my nieces, 9 and almost 9 years old, walked Mufasa (almost 2 years old) out for me, while I carried all the gear.


Sigh it just seems to be the night for exploring how thoughtless and clueless people can be kinda sad. 

But Mufasa sounds like an outstanding dog ... hey ... is he one of your dogs puppies??


----------



## dogmama57 (Nov 1, 2016)

amen,amen. i own a piit too. she's the sweetest thing. need to be more carefull of my GSD ,because he is protective: than the pure hearted love of my pitt.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Sigh it just seems to be the night for exploring how thoughtless and clueless people can be kinda sad.
> 
> But Mufasa sounds like an outstanding dog ... hey ... is he one of your dogs puppies??


Yes, Moofy (Mufasa) is out of Odessa and Herko. Odessa (Odie) I imported from Germany. Herko is an outside stud, also an import. Moofy is really an easy going, long coated boy.


----------

