# 4 month old first time on puppy bite sleeve



## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

This is his first day on the puppy bite sleeve. Any tips? I think he's doing great.

I try not to over work him on this since he's young. I've been using a flirt pole and then a couple on the sleeve. 

Edit: I joined a local schutzhund club, and we do that every Saturday. This is just some practice in between. However at the club we are just doing flirt pole stuff (just joined) 


http://youtu.be/0bhYSjHcqiA


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

I looked for three things, both bites were full mouth (well done)! I really liked that he did not turn on until you gave a signal, again well done. The third thing I might look for is eye contact with the agitator, could not tell at that angle and distance so not sure. One of the things I am working on with one of mine is sitting at my side not reacting to the agitator until I turn her on. This has been really hard for us to work on, please keep posting results. I would love to see how this is going with you both. You both are doing very well!


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

Strikker said:


> I looked for three things, both bites were full mouth (well done)! I really liked that he did not turn on until you gave a signal, again well done. The third thing I might look for is eye contact with the agitator, could not tell at that angle and distance so not sure. One of the things I am working on with one of mine is sitting at my side not reacting to the agitator until I turn her on. This has been really hard for us to work on, please keep posting results. I would love to see how this is going with you both. You both are doing very well!


Thanks for the comment! He seems to be loving it, so as long as it looks like he's being safe I'm fine doing it! He NORMALLY has pretty good eye contact with the agitator as far as what he told me. 

One thing I was wondering is 
1) should I go ahead and add a command to bite (once I release leash)

2) should i give him more distance to run after the agitator ?

Thanks! 
Logan


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

My first recommendation would be to put the puppy in a harness so he can work without getting corrected or choked out. I also would worry less about control and try and get the puppy into more drive at this point. Work barks and get him to understand the game. 

Here is a video of my wife with her male at four months. 
https://youtu.be/b6PpyVDU9os


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> My first recommendation would be to put the puppy in a harness so he can work without getting corrected or choked out. I also would worry less about control and try and get the puppy into more drive at this point. Work barks and get him to understand the game.
> 
> Here is a video of my wife with her male at four months.
> https://youtu.be/b6PpyVDU9os


I was wondering about a harness.. Would one from say the pet store work okay? Id hate to buy a nice one and then he grow out of it in a month. 


Your pup has awesome drive! Great looking dog too. 
Mine doesn't really bark much...not exactly sure how to get him to be more vocal, however when he does bark I reward him


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Milly238 said:


> I was wondering about a harness.. Would one from say the pet store work okay? Id hate to buy a nice one and then he grow out of it in a month.
> 
> 
> Your pup has awesome drive! Great looking dog too.
> Mine doesn't really bark much...not exactly sure how to get him to be more vocal, however when he does bark I reward him





Cheap harnesses are fine for puppies. They grow so fast, no sense in wasting money. The bark will usually come from frustration. That also comes with more drive. At this stage it's about building the puppy. Showing him it's fun. Showing him he agitator isn't scary and teaching him the rules.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

First I want to point out that I do not bite train my puppies, so I am just looking at points in the video that I liked. I wait until 18 months and we have a strong reliable obedience including recall and off leash work. That said, I thought the distance was fine for the size dog. Agitators will change the distance and the challenge as needed. I do have a bite command, while I am holding the leash the dog is "on guard" and be making eye contact with the agitator, once I then give the bite command and release the leash. Again, I am training my dogs with the hope "on guard" is enough and bite is something that only happens in training.


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Milly238 said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering about a harness.. Would one from say the pet store work okay? Id hate to buy a nice one and then he grow out of it in a month.
> ...


Awesome I will go and get a harness for him then, and see how he likes it!


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

Strikker said:


> First I want to point out that I do not bite train my puppies, so I am just looking at points in the video that I liked. I wait until 18 months and we have a strong reliable obedience including recall and off leash work. That said, I thought the distance was fine for the size dog. Agitators will change the distance and the challenge as needed. I do have a bite command, while I am holding the leash the dog is "on guard" and be making eye contact with the agitator, once I then give the bite command and release the leash. Again, I am training my dogs with the hope "on guard" is enough and bite is something that only happens in training.



Totally understand on the age. I've read a lot and I plan on not doing any defense drive training until after 12 months. 

I'll start adding the command so he starts to get used to it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Great! Let him wear it around the house first so he gets used to it. 

Did you start your puppy on a rag and/or tug before going to a sleeve? It's nice to start them slow incase you have to go back and fix something later. There is no rush to get them on a sleeve.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the easiest way to ruin a dog for sport - an inexperienced owner doing bite work at home.....

Harnesses are better for bite work as the dog 1. knows it is there FOR agitation work and 2 is more supportive of his body

After 19 years training - and watching my older dogs who worked hard have vague spinal and neck issues, arthiritis etc - I will NOT put any pup into bite work training - test yes, tease a bit to get them to bark - but no shaking, lifting, swinging, tugging sidewise etc......bones too soft and damage won't show up for years.....JMO and not what people are doing because everyone wants that pup on a hard sleeve at 8-10 months....but been there, done that and it comes down to whether you have a dog to do sport or do the sport because you love your dog

Lee


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Great! Let him wear it around the house first so he gets used to it.
> 
> Did you start your puppy on a rag and/or tug before going to a sleeve? It's nice to start them slow incase you have to go back and fix something later. There is no rush to get them on a sleeve.



Yeah he started on a little rag for a month or so, and then got him chasing the flirt pole with a jute attached to the end.. 
Then i introduced a soft pillow, and now this is his first time with the puppy sleeve. 

He seems to love it so that's why I didn't give him more time


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> the easiest way to ruin a dog for sport - an inexperienced owner doing bite work at home.....
> 
> Harnesses are better for bite work as the dog 1. knows it is there FOR agitation work and 2 is more supportive of his body
> 
> ...


I will get him a harness today. 

On a side note, I totally agree with you and I don't want my puppy hurt or anything like that. As far as the training goes, I'm taking him to a shutzhund working dog club locally once a week, and just doing these small 5 minute exercises in between. 

I'd like to state, my puppy never "learned" to bite any of those objects, as soon as I brought it out of the box he was going nuts and bit them right away. He wasn't scared or shy. I definitely am not "pushing" my dog to do any of this work, I just truly believe he loves it.. 

We don't lift my pup up, or swing him around. Just very very light pulling for a couple seconds then let him win.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think you'd be better off skipping the in between's Milly. If nothing else, you may just create problems and conflicts that will make the helper's work with your pup tougher. There's more going on in good helper work than what you may think. Things you may not notice can be a big deal to your pup.


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I think you'd be better off skipping the in between's Milly. If nothing else, you may just create problems and conflicts that will make the helper's work with your pup tougher. There's more going on in good helper work than what you may think. Things you may not notice can be a big deal to your pup.



Thanks for the comment. When would be a good age to be able to play with my pup without the helper??
It's only one time a week so it's pretty tough not being able to play with him at home as far as this kind of stuff is concerned.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I didn't mean for you not to play with him, I meant the same kinda thing as Wolfstraum mentioned. Having someone play helper at home in between the sessions. That's what I wouldn't do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Milly238 said:


> Thanks for the comment. When would be a good age to be able to play with my pup without the helper??
> It's only one time a week so it's pretty tough not being able to play with him at home as far as this kind of stuff is concerned.


1x per week with a helper is plenty. We only get one weekend per month and our dogs advance well.

Let the helper do the helper work. Timing on rewarding with the rag and pillow is critical. And as a newbie, don't add the commands until your helper tells you too. I started a bark command on my own and had to start with a different command because he viewed it as obedience instead of protection.

Just relax. He's going to start teething soon and then you shouldn't be doing any bitework. Work on obedience and tracking at home. There is more than enough there to keep you busy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, definitely get started on the tracking.


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I didn't mean for you not to play with him, I meant the same kinda thing as Wolfstraum mentioned. Having someone play helper at home in between the sessions. That's what I wouldn't do.



I meant in the long run, once he's older and doing bite work fine. Am I not supposed to ever have him bite the sleeve at my own home? I ALWAYS have to have that certain helper to do it? Or are you saying just now, during the learning stage.


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, definitely get started on the tracking.



I'm doing obedience and tracking at home in between club sessions as well. 
He loves it


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Since you're never going to be the helper in a trial with him, you're not really going to need to work him yourself. Having said that, there could be some possibility the TD of the club may have you do something with him and a sleeve, but more likely you'll just play with him with a tug.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Milly238 said:


> I meant in the long run, once he's older and doing bite work fine. Am I not supposed to ever have him bite the sleeve at my own home? I ALWAYS have to have that certain helper to do it? Or are you saying just now, during the learning stage.


I, personally, don't see the point to it. You can go to seminars, have other helpers work your dog, once the foundation is there. Your club can recommend other helper and seminars for variety. But there is really no reason for you to work him in protection. You are a partner with your dog. Not the threat. The helper is the threat. But seriously, the world champion has only been on 4-5 different helpers in his lifetime for training purposes. Most people have their club helper, go a a few seminars and before the trial, if it's at a different club, will go down a couple times to work their dog on that helper.


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## Milly238 (Dec 23, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Milly238 said:
> 
> 
> > I meant in the long run, once he's older and doing bite work fine. Am I not supposed to ever have him bite the sleeve at my own home? I ALWAYS have to have that certain helper to do it? Or are you saying just now, during the learning stage.
> ...



I'll always be the one handling him. I'm talking about say a year down the road, I go visit my friend or mother and they would like to see what he does. Can he not bite the sleeve just because the person isn't the normal helper??


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Milly238 said:


> I'll always be the one handling him. I'm talking about say a year down the road, I go visit my friend or mother and they would like to see what he does. Can he not bite the sleeve just because the person isn't the normal helper??


Let them come and watch you trial. Don't do bite work to show off. If someone gets bit, its not worth it. Show them how well behaved he is.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Please listen to Strom, Jax, and Wolfstraums .....they are giving you good advice. No training is better than bad training or inexperienced training. Work bite work with experienced people who can read your dog. Let a puppy be a puppy! Good luck with you and your dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I never want my dog thinking it's okay to bite me. We are a team and together we can take on the world. So having my dog bite me is conflicting to the dog. As for the number of helpers. I put my dogs on tons of helpers/decoys. My two year old has been on 40 different people. For me, that has real life applications. I have my 2-3 main decoys that take care of my main training goals and cleaning things up though. 

I will say that at this age, I'm with the others. I don't do a lot of "protection" work. Maybe once a month until they're older. Maybe 8-10 months depending on the dog. I do a lot of happy fun obedience and things like that.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I think maybe you are misunderstanding the point of "bitework." The helper is supposed to be an adversary, a challenge, a "bad guy." The handler should (imo), never be that to the dog. Clarity is (also imo), one of the most important things in sport/work/team relationships with training dogs. You have to be able to be very clear in your expectations of the dog, in reward, corrections, etc...Timing and clarity is everything. If you are one minute asking the dog to work with you and another minute asking him to challenge and bite you, that's not very clear. I know some experienced decoys will work their own dogs, but it's rare....because it's confusing to most dogs, and you aren't experienced so I would definitely not recommend it. Many "new people" (I count myself as a newb until I have multiple dogs under my belt) don't even know when they are putting pressure on the dog. It's not just that stick you're banging on the sleeve over and over (???), it's your body pressure, your pressure from your eyes, leaning over the dog, pushing into the dog, etc...And then you may not be able to tell when a dog is TELLING you he's under too much stress. Whining when pulling back, whale eyes, etc..... That's why I always wonder when even "experienced" people work their own dog. Some claim they only work in prey, but I still think it's a confusing situation. Plus, I don't ever want it to be a "game" as much as I can help it. I get that it's a routine that the dogs pick up on, but if I can do anything to keep it as "real" as possible, I will and so will those I train with.

If you want to show off invite friends to a trial or do some obedience in front of them. People are always impressed with the heeling and focus and out-of-motion exercises.


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