# Dieting & Nutrients heard back from nutritionist interesting info



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I've been wondering if I simply "cut back" on my 10 mo old GSD's dog food, it I might also be cutting back on vital nutrients (vitamins & minerals) that are also in the dog food which do not contribute to weight gain. 

I contacted the pet food company that makes the product I feed my dog (which has a "B" rating from petfoodadvisor.com and is 313 calories per cup). Here is the content of his email. I hope it helps some who are also concerned with this same question;

"To answer your question, if you reduce feeding amounts from a calorie standpoint, you can indeed restrict other nutrients to dangerously low levels."

"Whether this occurs depends on the calorie content of the food. For instance, if you are feeding your dog a cup per day of a very high fat/calorie food (say, 450 calories per cup), and you decide you need to cut her down 225 calories, you will only be feeding 1/2 cup of that food, whereas if you instead go to a weight loss food with 280 calories per cup, you will still be feeding almost a cup."

"So, if you reduce the feeding amount of a very high calorie food, you may be feeding such a small amount of the food that the other nutrients can be in the "nearly deficit" range, whereas the weight loss foods, which have a HIGH Nutrient & Calorie ratio, will still be supplying the nutrients, but less calories."

"Mainly it comes down to a foods nutrients: calorie ratio, which would be lower in high calorie foods.""I don't think a restriction, with the Zero grain turkey which is moderate fat/calorie content, would be difficult, just keep a close eye on the body condition and once she is at ideal level feed to her weight again."

This makes sense to me and was exactly what I was concerned about. It looks like what I'm feeding her will be ok for temporary diets, but if I need a long term food for her that permanently supplies higher nutrients and lower calories, I will need to switch to an actual "diet formulated" food which this manufacturer does not make.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I think it really depends. Ideally you are feeding the amount of food your dog requires to sustain an ideal weight. Most dogs are overweight because they are overfed. If your dog SHOULD weigh 70lbs, feed an amount appropriate for a 70lb dog and weight should be lost when combined with appropriate exercise

You shouldn't have to restrict calories below what is required for an ideal weight maintanence. That being said, certain foods designed for high energy dogs, with higher calorie and protein ratios, probably aren't the best to feed to an older dog that is not that active and prone to weight gain.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Yes, and on the same token, if you are unknowingly feeding your dog a brand that happens to be higher in calorie/fat ratio and your dog does not get sufficient exercise to burn it off, stepping down to a food that has a lower calorie/fat content would be beneficial. I suspected that the specifically formulated dog "diet foods" had a lower calorie/fat ratio, but I think that maybe these foods are advertised more for "seniors" than diet food? Haven't done my homework there yet.

I don't think it would hurt anyone to take a look at the bag of their dog's food and find out if they are feeding something intended for the more active dogs before they start cutting back on the food and feeding the same thing for the long term. 

I don't want my dog to get 50 or 75 or 80% of the vitamins and minerals because I'm stuck on one type of dog food. That would be a little crazy to me.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Just get some Feedsentials. Problem solved.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I just looked at the title "The complete nutritional supplement for the hard working dog." Carmspack.com

Is this a commercial?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Here is where you can get it, plus info on the product. 

Feed-Sentials Nutritional Supplement


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It is commercial advertising! I didn't think that was allowed here? 

In my quest for information onproper vitamin & mineral amounts for my dog. I have come across several warnings about supplements in any form.

An excess of certain vitamins & minerals can be as bad for your dog as a deficit. As you know, it's not the glossy coat on the outside but may be the organ damage inside from too much inside.

Why would anyone promote a supplement to the general public when they have no idea what their dog's specific needs are other than to make money and they really don't give a crap about the dog?

This post is to try to tell people how to look at the content of the food they are giving to their dog and understand it's effect and make more informed decisions. This information was not posted so you could advertise a product over the top of it.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Members are actually allowed to recommend commercial products just like they can recommend breeders or e-collars or companies that sell equipment. The company, supplier or breeder themselves, though, can not come on here and advertise.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Then I would think I have the same right to keep this post, which I consider important in pointing out that that reference to Feed-Sentials could be,contradictory - if the owner's dog food is already supplying enough vitamins & minerals, it could be useless or perhaps even detrimental to their dog.

It would take an analysis of the food & supplement to determine if their dog was receiving detrimental/excess levels of any vitamin or mineral by giving the supplement.

If 100% of RDA is given by law in each dog food portion, there is no need for supplements except for the "hard working dog" or dog under other duress.

Will this "commercial" pop up in every discussion that attempts to talk about nutrition in dog food? I went to a little bit of trouble to get an answer from a professional. I didn't think it would be run over by this.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I think there is a much larger wiggle room than is often promoted in dog food, which is where many raw feeders are able to still provide appropriate nutrients over time - key is variation. 

The body stores on average 28 days of required essential nutrients from excess intake in the diet. Unless you were severely underfeeding your dog over a long period of time, I find it unlikely any main dog food would be lacking if, again, at least fed an appropriate amount for a dog's ideal body weight. Taking into account the body stores excess nutrients, I would be willing to bet most foods are likely to err on the high end, and therefor you are likely feeding a little more than needed. You also have to factor in nutrients taken from treats - did you know milk bones qualify as a stand alone diet? 

Again, you should never really restrict caloric intake to the point that you have to increase it once your dog reaches an ideal weight.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Correction - should of stated body stores many parts of a required diet. Not all - fat soluble vitamins can be stored in the liver and fat (A, D, E, K), water soluble vitamins are quickly filtered and excreted through the kidneys. Protein is commonly not stored, but excess calories are obviously in fat


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> It is commercial advertising! I didn't think that was allowed here?
> 
> In my quest for information onproper vitamin & mineral amounts for my dog. I have come across several warnings about supplements in any form.
> 
> ...


Nice. No wonder people are hesitant to post these days.

Anyways. ....

You will not harm your dog in any way by adding Feedsentials. It's a fantastic product used by many here.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So much for trying to be helpful.
This is a whole food supplement that was created by a breeder, for her own dogs.
It has human grade food ingredients. 
You asked how to make sure your dog gets everything she needs of you reduce the food.
I replied.
I do not make or sell the product.


----------



## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> So much for trying to be helpful.
> This is a whole food supplement that was created by a breeder, for her own dogs.
> It has human grade food ingredients.
> You asked how to make sure your dog gets everything she needs of you reduce the food.
> ...


Is there a way to avoid S/H fee ?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

How can you avoid shipping? You can't. The product comes to you all they way from Canada! 
You only need a tablespoon twice a week, it lasts you about six months.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

This whole thread is rather stilted. So the original post is talking about ensuring the proper nutrition including vitamins and minerals are being fed to our dogs when either over or under feeding the recommended amount of kibble.

Another member simply gave her opinion that a product she personally uses for her GSD and has good results with may be a solution to that problem. How is this offensive or advertising? Is this not the point of a discussion board, to offer advice and discuss topics such as nutrition? Advice can be considered and discarded but that doesn't mean you need to be rude about it

OP - if you are truly concerned then why are you closing yourself off to any suggestions? It could be Feedsentials, Nupro powder, coconut oil, salmon oil - all supplements have their place in diets and can be beneficial. When I was feeding kibble I added Tripett, salmon oil, coconut oil, yogurt, etc. just to name a few because I believe a varied diet helps promote health and ensures there are no missing links

Personally, I wouldn't knock it until you tried it. I feed RAW and supplement only now with fresh tripe, Feedsentials, and Shemp Oil and my dogs have never been healthier. I decided to try it and see what happens and I love the results.


----------



## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> I've been wondering if I simply "cut back" on my 10 mo old GSD's dog food, it I might also be cutting back on vital nutrients (vitamins & minerals) that are also in the dog food which do not contribute to weight gain.


 
Well of course.....one of the grave downsides to feeding kibble. And this is even if all of the vit/min in the kibble you are feeding are bioavailable to your dog -for the sake of the conversation lets say they are. 

So unfortunately and clearly, you cannot fine-tune the diet when all of the contents are mashed and mushed into circles/spheres although great kudos to you if you can!

If you arethat worried about not feeding the correct amount of vits and mins you are going to have to supplement or find a kibble with lower cals per cup but that meets the vit/min requirements of your dog .

I would go the easier route of supplementing with feed-sentials, if I was that concerned. It is an absolutely fabulous product! Highly recommend it!


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Agree with those who support the Feed Sentials products!

Since I began using all of those supplements a few months ago, our 8 1/2 year old female has started to act like a puppy again!

These are ALL WHOLE FOODS ground up.....not processed with chemical compounds!

I recommend them highly! 
Moms


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just to clarify (maybe?) how we can recommend things that are commercial, it has to do with who I am and what I do...

If I was a sales person working for Purina and came here recommending (selling) something that I will profit from that is made by Purina, that is not allowed.

On the other hand, if I do NOT work for Purina but just found the best dog treat EVER that they make and my dog loves, I am more than able to RECOMMEND my great find to anyone here on this site.

It's about the profit/business of something that isn't allowed to be done (unless you have a membership as a vendor) on the general board. 

Otherwise anyone can recommend anything that THEY feel will benefit someone/their dog. WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that it's just an opinion based on background and experience.

Heck, I can say that I give my dogs 4 Dole bananas a day, so everyone should give their dogs 4 Dole bananas a day and that's allowed  My opinion that can (and hopefully will) be ignored or followed based on what the reader feels is right for their dog!


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Getting back to the OP's point. I see what you are saying. I can see that it is an easy trap to fall into. A dog gets over weight and the vet recommends that you cut back on food. The owner severely reduces the food intake for weight loss, much like humans do when they 'diet'. It doesn't mean it's the "healthy" way to go. The better option is likely to be changing the food type. IE: low calorie diet formula or senior formula rather than just cutting back on portion size. Thus providing for a more balanced diet as the food manufacturer likely has accommodated for the higher vitamin/mineral to calorie content.

I believe all the Stonevintage was suggesting was that the vitamin/mineral to calorie ratio to volume ratio in commercial dog food is a fine balance that many may not be considering when they need to help there dog lose weight. 

Why did this have to become a debate on supplements and especially a debate on a supplement made and sold by a forum member? No offense to Carmen. It wasn't the point of the original post!

Thank you stonevintage for raising awareness to the issue of healthy weight loss in overweight/obese dogs.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It would also make sense not to reduce food, but to increase exercise.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> I've been wondering if I simply "cut back" on my 10 mo old GSD's dog food, it I might also be cutting back on vital nutrients (vitamins & minerals) that are also in the dog food which do not contribute to weight gain.
> 
> This makes sense to me and was exactly what I was concerned about. It looks like what I'm feeding her will be ok for temporary diets, but if I need a long term food for her that permanently supplies higher nutrients and lower calories, I will need to switch to an actual "diet formulated" food which this manufacturer does not make.


From another kibble feeder. Thanks for posting that, I had wondered. I put my dogs on grain free healthy weight food a while back because I was worried I was cutting too much. I have a senior and two young adults. I wonder which is better the Senior Formula or the Weight Maintenance? Or should I be buying two different foods. Please let us know what you find out as you further research this.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've never seen someone who cares this much about their dogs nutrition, feed kibble. If you want to control your dog's nutrient intake, the only way to do that is raw.

And then on top of that to believe the word of the "pet nutritionist" who is on the company's payroll as if it's not biased. Never forget, these people aren't doctors, the ethics and expectations of pet health are much lower and way different than human healthcare. This guy has all the reason to tell you to keep feeding more food, an extra cup or 1/2 cup a day...that's probably a bag a year. To insinuate that lowering your dog's food by half a cup a day, is going to bring the nutrient and vitamin levels to "dangerously low" pretty much tells me the levels in the food are already pretty low.

On a side note, any naturally derived vitamins and nutrients that are over the needed value are either stored or passed through the body. Only certain synthetic vitamins can cause issues in the body when they're over taken. If it's natural, your body or your dog's body, can monitor its own level and get rid of what it doesn't need. It's the synthetic stuff that's dangerous.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I've never seen someone who cares this much about their dogs nutrition, feed kibble. If you want to control your dog's nutrient intake, the only way to do that is raw.
> 
> And then on top of that to believe the word of the "pet nutritionist" who is on the company's payroll as if it's not biased. Never forget, these people aren't doctors, the ethics and expectations of pet health are much lower and way different than human healthcare. This guy has all the reason to tell you to keep feeding more food, an extra cup or 1/2 cup a day...that's probably a bag a year. To insinuate that lowering your dog's food by half a cup a day, is going to bring the nutrient and vitamin levels to "dangerously low" pretty much tells me the levels in the food are already pretty low.
> 
> On a side note, any naturally derived vitamins and nutrients that are over the needed value are either stored or passed through the body. Only certain synthetic vitamins can cause issues in the body when they're over taken. If it's natural, your body or your dog's body, can monitor its own level and get rid of what it doesn't need. It's the synthetic stuff that's dangerous.


This is exactly what I was thinking, but I remembered op's first posts on Purina, and how that went, so I didn't go there.


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Is there a way to avoid S/H fee ?


Yes! You can road trip out to Ontario and buy it right from the raw food store in Brooklin ;-)


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Springbrz said:


> Why did this have to become a debate on supplements and especially a debate on a supplement made and sold by a forum member? No offense to Carmen. It wasn't the point of the original post!


The point of the original post was looking for to keep a diet balanced. A good suggestion was made by another member, she was then slammed by the OP for for having alterior motives and accused of not caring.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is a HUGE overreaction. Feedsentials is a whole food supplement. Recommending a product you personally use it NOT a commercial. If your read the ingredients, before you go off on a tangent about commercials, you would see this is a whole food supplement that compliments a raw diet well.

Sunflowers was suggesting a product she uses and likes. I've used it. Many people have used it. If you aren't interested, then a simple "no thanks" would suffice.




Stonevintage said:


> It is commercial advertising! I didn't think that was allowed here?
> 
> In my quest for information onproper vitamin & mineral amounts for my dog. I have come across several warnings about supplements in any form.
> 
> ...





Stonevintage said:


> Then I would think I have the same right to keep this post, which I consider important in pointing out that that reference to Feed-Sentials could be,contradictory - if the owner's dog food is already supplying enough vitamins & minerals, it could be useless or perhaps even detrimental to their dog.
> 
> It would take an analysis of the food & supplement to determine if their dog was receiving detrimental/excess levels of any vitamin or mineral by giving the supplement.
> 
> ...


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Personally I use feed sentinels. I like it, my dogs like it, my oldest puts it on his yogurt (drives me nuts) - it's a great product. The person who makes it is dedicated to health and nutrition in dogs. She's not making it because she doesn't care about health and wellness.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My post was to pass along the information as relayed to me by Dr. Lang of Ainsworth Pet Food Company. He is one of their nutritionists but he also has his own practice. Why would I not trust the Dr's opinion when his explanation and recommendation will very probably send me to another pet food company for my dog's long term pet food needs? (they do not make a diet food).

I did not post here asking for suggestions - I have my plan in place from Dr Lang's suggestions. I will not run out and buy a supplement that my dog does not need. I meant no disrespect to the members product either but this post was about dog food content and long and short term dieting.

To suggest a dog owner just buy supplements and add to the food and everything will be good, missed the whole point of the post. Supplements are a huge industry and a very controversial topic and would make a good post should someone care to start one. It could start with the long term safety records that show these products are safe for dogs when given over their lifespan.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Feedsentials did not work for Midnite, but I did try it because it was highly recommended. I think with some people need to know that a product might be good but might not work for all.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> My post was to pass along the information as relayed to me by Dr. Lang of Ainsworth Pet Food Company. He is one of their nutritionists but he also has his own practice. Why would I not trust the Dr's opinion when his explanation and recommendation will very probably send me to another pet food company for my dog's long term pet food needs? (they do not make a diet food).
> 
> I did not post here asking for suggestions - I have my plan in place from Dr Lang's suggestions. I will not run out and buy a supplement that my dog does not need. I meant no disrespect to the members product either but this post was about dog food content and long and short term dieting.
> 
> To suggest a dog owner just buy supplements and add to the food and everything will be good, missed the whole point of the post. Supplements are a huge industry and a very controversial topic and would make a good post should someone care to start one. It could start with the long term safety records that show these products are safe for dogs when given over their lifespan.


Well, great then. The pet food company guy is right. You are 
100% sure he is a doctor in veterinary medicine, and a nutritionist, who has no interest on selling product.

I thought the point of the post was about nutrition.
How dumb of me.
Never mind.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So people tell people all the time not to trust a vets knowledge on nutrition and now people should not trust a nutritionist knowledge on nutrition?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> So people tell people all the time not to trust a vets knowledge on nutrition and now people should not trust a nutritionist knowledge on nutrition?


You can, but you need to remember that they're not held to as high of a standard as a human nutritionist is. And in this case...the nutritionist/vet is on the company payroll.

It's also pretty interesting that if you go to their website, and read the first page, you'll see a certain last name on the founder. Could it be coincidence? Absolutely... But with a rare last name like that, I'll wager that the nutritionist has more than just a paycheck on the line when it comes to the profitability of the company.

Ainsworth Pet Nutrition® Home

On top of that, neither person listed under their "nutrition team" on their pretty fancy website (I assume it's updated frequently) is a veterinarian or a doctor.

I love the interweb...it's a pretty fantastic place to quickly fact check and get more information.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote " corn gluten meal, corn bran, wheat flour, whole grain wheat, whole grain corn"

quote "Whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, soybean hulls*, soybean germ meal, soybean meal, pea fiber, wheat gluten, poultry by-product meal, animal digest, powdered cellulose"

these two examples are real products out there created by nutritionists working in the employee for a major commercial kibble. The later product is available at Vet clinics - same company.

The dog will loose weight . These high fibre diets fill the gut , are anti-nutrients which , in my opinion , set up digestive problems and inflammation .

The dog's gut was meant for rapid transit of nutritionally dense food . 

There are other ways to trim a dog . There are other ways to have a frisky senior sans problems .


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Was it this guy? Or was it actually another guy named Lang who really is a veterinarian and a nutritionist?

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/sean-lang/6/940/56a

Interesting that one of their "nutrition lab" guys has a degree in biochemical engineering.

http://www.ainsworthpets.com/nutritionlab


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

*Carmspack:* Would you mind sharing some information about your supplements? What are your credentials...are you a nutritionist? What testing, if any, is done on your supplements to ensure they are safe and effective? Where are your supplements manufactured?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

And let's say that letter did supposedly come from the CEO of the company, who used to work at Chemical Bank.

How many CEOs of a huge company such as that one actually work email in customer service?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

less than one month ago Dogs Naturally Magazine held a multi-day web Raw Round Up with esteemed Drs such Dodds, Becker , Billinghurst, Goldstein, Kidd, and nutrionist Habib .

Having followed these DVM's and authors over the decades I think I would be on safe ground to say that they would offer a very different approach .

Processing degrades or destroys many nutrients .
Fillers impede absorption. 
Grains which haven't been sprouted or processed (soaking and rinse, soak and rinse) to remove phytic acid will reduce absorption of minerals . 
Minerals which are listed as sulfate or chloride are inorganic and are poorly absorbed .
Many of the "mineral" and vitamin mixes are pre-mixes lab made in China . Trust ?

So you end up with a mineral deficiency which affects everything -- including enzyme activity. Minerals being the spark plug that ignites activity.

These dogs that have been on calorie reduced or weight loss or senior diets do slim down . More like wasting , a controlled slow starvation.

If fed a nutrient dense , clean , food WITH appropriate fats (necessary for nerve and brain function) and essential fatty acids , the pudgy dog should tone up , build lean muscle (protein) and become a frisky senior not burdened with junk that needs to be detoxed.


----------



## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I have a headache


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nikitta said:


> I have a headache


might be dehydration - 

here is more to think about , all these corns and soy fillers are highly likely to be GMO and that brings in other very serious considerations


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> *Carmspack:* Would you mind sharing some information about your supplements? What are your credentials...are you a nutritionist? What testing, if any, is done on your supplements to ensure they are safe and effective? Where are your supplements manufactured?


Buying from Carmen is like buying a whole food at a farmer's market.

She developed it for her own use. 



carmspack said:


> first and foremost Feed-Sentials is FOOD , not a drug , a food which confers many benefits and is a convenient , whole body's supply of all the other requirements over and above the macro nutrients one would get when feeding a raw diet , those being protein , fat and mineral (calcium).
> 
> My pups are weaned on to the powder . A bit mixed in with raw goat milk and the first bits of ground chicken with finely ground bone. Then they grow big and strong with energy and shiny coats and no problems with diarrhea or downed pasterns . Wildo in the last month I have taken 3 adults aged 3 to 5 years for OFA --- and as is my experience they are all OFA (should come in good , possibly one excellent) . That is my experience over the last 10 years plus ! good orthopedics . I do put some credit to how they are being fed.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> My post was to pass along the information as relayed to me by Dr. Lang of Ainsworth Pet Food Company. He is one of their nutritionists but he also has his own practice. Why would I not trust the Dr's opinion when his explanation and recommendation will very probably send me to another pet food company for my dog's long term pet food needs? (they do not make a diet food).
> 
> I did not post here asking for suggestions - I have my plan in place from Dr Lang's suggestions. I will not run out and buy a supplement that my dog does not need. I meant no disrespect to the members product either but this post was about dog food content and long and short term dieting.
> 
> To suggest a dog owner just buy supplements and add to the food and everything will be good, missed the whole point of the post. Supplements are a huge industry and a very controversial topic and would make a good post should someone care to start one. It could start with the long term safety records that show these products are safe for dogs when given over their lifespan.


I really want to know why your 10 month old dog needs a diet?

Again, most dogs are overweight because they are overfed, not because the food content is too high In calories. Especially a pup that young. 

Figure out how much you think your dog should weigh, her ideal weight, then compare that to the recommended feeding guidelines on the bag. Are you feeding more than that? There's the problem.

Not that I think feeding guidelines on bags are the go to... I usually calculate calorie needs with science diets calculations - I forget the formula but it's easy enough to Google - then figure out feeding from there.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh, you guys crack me up You would rather have people "trust you" without any credentials, trust a product that has not passed FDA approval, trust a feeding method that many vets don't approve of. Then you try to discredit a nutritionist you know nothing about (nice work on digging up a banker - I have no idea who Sean Lang is).

See ya!


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Oh, you guys crack me up You would rather have people "trust you" without any credentials, trust a product that has not passed FDA approval, trust a feeding method that many vets don't approve of. Then you try to discredit a nutritionist you know nothing about (nice work on digging up a banker - I have no idea who Sean Lang is).
> 
> See ya!


That is the CEO of the pet food company. He used to work for Chemical Bank.

Yeah, the FDA has a great record of approving safe drugs. That is why lawyers are getting rich suing for all kinds of medications that kill people.

Keep feeding your dog corn, hey, who are we to suggest anything else?
By the way, it is sooooo healthful to put a 10-month-old puppy on a diet.
See ya!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

*Dieting &amp; Nutrients heard back from nutritionist interesting info*

For what it's worth, I don't feed the supplement.

Sean Lang is the former CEO and the current Executive Chairman of the pet food company you seem to put all your trust in. Basically, he's the head of the whole thing if you haven't figured that out by now. Looks like his father or grandfather started the company. It's an interesting coincidence that your email is from a Dr. Lang. When the company is basically built by Langs.

Are you one of those selective readers? Cause that LinkedIn site basically has the food company plastered all over it. I'm not sure how you could miss all that information...

Also, supplements do not need an FDA approval, even human supplements don't need FDA approval.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anubis_Star said:


> Again, most dogs are overweight because they are overfed, not because the food content is too high In calories.


That's my feeling too. I just can't fathom leaving your dog overweight in an attempt to make sure they get the exact right amount of vitamins and minerals, especially when if there IS an exact right amount for any particular dog, we don't really know what that perfect amount is or how to figure it out. I don't think human nutrition is that far advanced, and canine nutrition certainly isn't. 

Feed the appropriate amount (for good body condition, being not too thin and not chubby) of a high quality food, and adjust that quantity as needed to maintain said condition.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This thread is going in the same direction as your Purina dog food thread. Blinders on, deny deny deny and defend even though your being given some great information here.

I've been where you are. Bought a dog from what I thought was reputable..not, fed what I thought was a decent food..not, trusted my vet and gave too many vaccines and meds. Lost him at 6 years old. I soooo wish I could go back in time and change it all.

The "people" you refer to, and I choose to trust, have 14-16 yr old healthy GSD'S running around their yard enjoying life.

In the end, it's your dog to do with what you please.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My last GSD passed away at 14.5 last June. I fed him Priority dog food.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> My last GSD passed away at 14.5 last June. I fed him Priority dog food.


Then your all set and don't need ANY advice! You've got it all under control.


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Why does a 10 month old need a diet.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> My last GSD passed away at 14.5 last June. I fed him Priority dog food.


Fantastic.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

all this nutrient deprivation during a critical growth phase does what to your young dog's immune system ?

great food , and a brisk walk , sunshine , fresh air , pleasure , non-stress , not emotional and not physical sound like a good formula to me


----------



## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

carmspack said:


> all this nutrient deprivation during a critical growth phase does what to your young dog's immune system ?
> 
> great food , and a brisk walk , sunshine , fresh air , pleasure , non-stress , not emotional and not physical sound like a good formula to me


Wish we had a LIKE BUTTON!!!!


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> all this nutrient deprivation during a critical growth phase does what to your young dog's immune system ?
> 
> great food , and a brisk walk , sunshine , fresh air , pleasure , non-stress , not emotional and not physical sound like a good formula to me


That was the whole point of my post Carmen, no nutrient deprivation. That is why I posed my question to a nutritionist and that's why he explained the answer to me, so there would be no danger of nutrient deprivation. Do you have a disagreement with what the nutritionist told me?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes I do . Reasons for which stated before .

inorganic minerals , synthetic vitamins , food which is gut-glue fibre , gmo (expected) -- it just is not food ! 

poor protein source 

lack of health-benefitting ingredients

difference between kept alive and fed to thrive


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm so confused with this thread...let me see if I got this straight...

The OP posted a blurb about a nutritionist explaining to her that is she decreased food intake that nutrients would decrease proportionally. 

She then ended that blurb stating the company doesn't make a different food that she thinks she needs.

People made suggestions and were basically told to shut up.

Is that about it?

Personally, nothing wrong with what the nutritionist stated. It's just common sense that anyone should have been able to riddle through. And since you don't want any input, maybe ask a mod to lock this thread and in the future put a disclaimer that input is not only not desired but will be met with hostility.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> yes I do . Reasons for which stated before .
> 
> inorganic minerals , synthetic vitamins , food which is gut-glue fibre , gmo (expected) -- it just is not food !
> 
> ...


We are such worlds apart. I believe in what the nutritionists have to say. I understand that you think that anything other than whole foods not good. But, thank you for your comments


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I think you're reading what you want into what the nutritionist had to say though! They didn't say that if you personally cut your dog's food back any more, it would be lacking in proper nutrition.

There is a very large difference between feeding an extremely small amount of food to force rapid weight loss through starvation, which many owners do and which I would guarantee the nutritionist was speaking about, and feeding an appropriate amount of food for the IDEAL body weight of the dog and losing excess weight over the long run (which is what the majority of vets would recommend as being the healthiest way for any animal to lose weight)

How am I qualified to say that? Although I haven't worked general practice in years, I am a certified veterinary technician that graduated from an AVMA approved program and received the same nutritional training that the majority of veterinary students receive, largely lectured by science diet "nutrition specialists" - some of which were highly qualified through several science, veterinary, and diet related degrees and were actually a joy to talk to, some of which were plucked from any random petsmart aisle and trained to say what the company wanted them to say.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> "Whether this occurs depends on the calorie content of the food. For instance, if you are feeding your dog a cup per day of a very high fat/calorie food (say, 450 calories per cup), and you decide you need to cut her down 225 calories, you will only be feeding 1/2 cup of that food, whereas if you instead go to a weight loss food with 280 calories per cup, you will still be feeding almost a cup."


Does she know you have a GSD? One cup of food a day is a very small amount for a larger breed dog, and certainly nobody would suggest cutting the daily quantity in half. That would be extreme, and I can understand why you'd be concerned about nutrients if that were the case. 

For a dog that's getting two cups per day, I'd probably start by cutting back by 1/4 cup a day and see how that goes over the next week or so. With 1/8 less food, the reduction in nutrients isn't going to be a huge deal. I might go up to as much as 1/4 cup less per meal with a dog that's eating 3 cups a day. 

Personally, I'd rather feed less of a high quality calorie dense food and supplement for additional nutrients, if necessary, than use a "diet" food, which could have more fillers to keep the calories low.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> I think you're reading what you want into what the nutritionist had to say though! They didn't say that if you personally cut your dog's food back any more, it would be lacking in proper nutrition.
> 
> There is a very large difference between feeding an extremely small amount of food to force rapid weight loss through starvation, which many owners do and which I would guarantee the nutritionist was speaking about, and feeding an appropriate amount of food for the IDEAL body weight of the dog and losing excess weight over the long run (which is what the majority of vets would recommend as being the healthiest way for any animal to lose weight)
> 
> How am I qualified to say that? Although I haven't worked general practice in years, I am a certified veterinary technician that graduated from an AVMA approved program and received the same nutritional training that the majority of veterinary students receive, largely lectured by science diet "nutrition specialists" - some of which were highly qualified through several science, veterinary, and diet related degrees and were actually a joy to talk to, some of which were plucked from any random petsmart aisle and trained to say what the company wanted them to say.


I understood that he felt it would be ok to cut my dog's current food back 20% (temporarily) that is the percentage that I talked to him about. However, in the long term It may be better to go to a lower calorie food. Right now, instead of feeding her 3 2/3 cups per day - I feed her 3 cups per day but I do not look for this to be a long term solution. I think I can find better. The "proper" amount is most likely going to change (depending on activity levels). This won't be a good month to judge anything as she will be in heat for another 2 1/2 weeks or so and we're not out and about. 

The only thing I could see that you and he disagreed on was the last portion when he said to resume to feed back to the desired weight. I took this to be regardless of how small 10%-20% you cut back the food and ultimately achieved the desired weight. Not as a rapid starvation diet. It's just that, if you are feeding less than weight will fall, if you feed right the weight will stay where it is. That's all. 

Then reason I am concerned is that my pup has HD in her family (Sire & Sib) and I agree that to keep her on the lean side long term will be beneficial. I really cannot speak to any of the lower calorie foods as I have not researched any of them yet.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Does she know you have a GSD? One cup of food a day is a very small amount for a larger breed dog, and certainly nobody would suggest cutting the daily quantity in half. That would be extreme, and I can understand why you'd be concerned about nutrients if that were the case.
> 
> For a dog that's getting two cups per day, I'd probably start by cutting back by 1/4 cup a day and see how that goes over the next week or so. With 1/8 less food, the reduction in nutrients isn't going to be a huge deal. I might go up to as much as 1/4 cup less per meal with a dog that's eating 3 cups a day.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather feed less of a high quality calorie dense food and supplement for additional nutrients, if necessary, than use a "diet" food, which could have more fillers to keep the calories low.


Oh goodness no. The one cup unit was just used while we were discussing calories etc - just a simple unit of measure. She gets 3 cups per day. Yes, he had her weight, age, height and her parents weights also.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OP, I am just curious as to why you think your dog should lose some weight.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

> The only thing I could see that you and he disagreed on was the last portion when he said to resume to feed back to the desired weight. I took this to be regardless of how small 10%-20% you cut back the food and ultimately achieved the desired weight. Not as a rapid starvation diet. It's just that, if you are feeding less than weight will fall, if you feed right the weight will stay where it is.


No, we were always taught to feed to an ideal weight. Then with appropriate exercise weight will be gradually lost in a healthy manner. If you feed less, she loses weight, then you increase the amount of food again, she'll just gain that weight back.

Fat is gained from storage of excess calories. If a dog is overweight, it's being overfed. 

Let's say, just pulling numbers out of my behind - 10 month intact female, I'll guess should weigh 70 lbs. Let's say to maintain her at 70 lbs it would be 1000 calories, let's say that would be exactly 3 cups of whatever food is being fed. If you're feeding her 4 cups of food, that's roughly 330 calories more than required. So of course she'll be overweight. If you were to cut her back to 3 cups - which again would be feeding to ideal weight - she will no longer be storing excess calories as fat. Appropriate exercise will allow the rest of the excess fat to be burned off. Unless he had her ideal weight, and not her parents weight or her current weight, but her ideal weight then he can not calculate her ideal amount to be fed.

Its how I took 27 lbs off my overweight male who had hip dysplasia

If she is overweight, then it is more likely that you're feeding too much food and even cutting back to an appropriate amount will not leave her void in nutrition. Now geriatric or very low energy dogs may need few enough calories that nutrients may be lost in cutting back that much long term unless you were to feed a low calorie food. I can't ever imagine this being the case in an immature, intact female.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've always tried to feed according to what there ideal adult weight should be. I believe its the same way with feeding raw. Someone posted a formula on here to use and I went with that because it made sense and it has worked well. Midnite is between 80-85, down from over 100 pounds. He is much healthier now then when he was heavier. I follow that formula with all of my dogs and they all maintain healthy weights. That formula is the ideal weight divided by the protein percentage in the food. So if the dog is estimated to be 80 pounds, you take 80 and divide it by the protein percentage in food, let's say 30%. 80 divided by 30 is 2.67 cups a day(I might round that up to 3 cups per day.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I've always tried to feed according to what there ideal adult weight should be. I believe its the same way with feeding raw. Someone posted a formula on here to use and I went with that because it made sense and it has worked well. Midnite is between 80-85, down from over 100 pounds. He is much healthier now then when he was heavier. I follow that formula with all of my dogs and they all maintain healthy weights. That formula is the ideal weight divided by the protein percentage in the food. So if the dog is estimated to be 80 pounds, you take 80 and divide it by the protein percentage in food, let's say 30%. 80 divided by 30 is 2.67 cups a day(I might round that up to 3 cups per day.


That's an interesting formula. Summer's food is 26% protein and I believe her ideal weight to be 70 lbs (she's 75lbs now) so that would also be 2.6 cups per day. The recommended on the bag for a 50lb dog is 3 2/3 cups. I've been feeding her 3 cups and she gained 5lbs in the last 2.5 weeks. 2.6 cups would be a 30% reduction for what is recommended for a 50lb dog. I wouldn't feel comfortable reducing her that much. Her food is only 313 calories per cup. 

Because she's only 11months old, sometimes I wonder if her "ideal weight" may be closer to 80 or 85lbs and I am fighting a loosing battle with mother nature. That's still a possibility, that the breeder could have been off when she told me to keep her at 70lbs. Here's a pic of her 2.5 weeks ago when she was at 70lbs.

Honestly, I have never been able to see her last rib or see a defined "tuck".


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

She is on the taller side right? My female is just over 28 inches and 78 pounds. She is considered slender by some and ideal by most. I would put your dog at about the same weight as an adult if she is as tall as I think I remember she is.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

She's 26 inches atw.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I've always tried to feed according to what there ideal adult weight should be. I believe its the same way with feeding raw. Someone posted a formula on here to use and I went with that because it made sense and it has worked well. Midnite is between 80-85, down from over 100 pounds. He is much healthier now then when he was heavier. I follow that formula with all of my dogs and they all maintain healthy weights. That formula is the ideal weight divided by the protein percentage in the food. So if the dog is estimated to be 80 pounds, you take 80 and divide it by the protein percentage in food, let's say 30%. 80 divided by 30 is 2.67 cups a day(I might round that up to 3 cups per day.



I don't think that works all the time. My girl is 90lbs (and at a weight I and her vet are comfortable with) Her food is 20% protein. Following that formula means she should be getting 4+ cups a day. She gets 2 cups. She is not gaining or loosing. My 60 lb mix is also getting the same amount and he is not gaining or loosing either. My 40 lb mix is getting 1 1/2 cups and she is maintaining.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Your dog doesn't look obviously overweight at all, but a good profile and top picture would show that better.

A 70 lb dog of typical activity should require roughly 1400 calories/day (I think my calculation came out to 1470 kcals/day)

Intact, imature female should require slightly more. That would be over 4 cups a day at a food with 313 kcals/cup. As you can see, it varies dog by dog, but also largely food by food.

I've never heard of the protein calculation, but because protein is not stored like calories are in fat... it seems to me like some dogs could potentially be severely underfed. Berlin requires over 2000 calories a day to maintain a good weight. I think I have him calculated at requiring 2321, lol. That's on a high protein, limited ingredient, high calorie food. If I were to calculate based on that protein percentage alone, it would be having me feed less than half of what he is eating now.

If you consistently eat 1000 calories of McDonald's vs. 1000 calories of a meal consisting of lean fish, raw vegetables, salad, and whole grains, then you are obviously going to see a very different weight distribution. Same is true of dog foods. If your dog is gaining weight even feeding a less than ideal amount, it's probably time to switch up foods. Not necessarily "diet" foods, because that is just an increase in fillers. But looking at higher quality foods.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't think that works all the time. My girl is 90lbs (and at a weight I and her vet are comfortable with) Her food is 20% protein. Following that formula means she should be getting 4+ cups a day. She gets 2 cups. She is not gaining or loosing. My 60 lb mix is also getting the same amount and he is not gaining or loosing either. My 40 lb mix is getting 1 1/2 cups and she is maintaining.


20% is really low. If I may ask, what food is that? When I was trying to find a low protein and/or low fat food, I found nothing with those numbers at all.

The lower % of proteins are going to typically require more food. The food they are on now is 37%. They get about 2-2.5 cups of that a day.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

No, she's not much overweight, she weighs about 5lbs more than when those pics were taken though (75 now). I can easily see her going to 80 lbs in the next month if she continues the pattern. She hasn't gained any height for 3 months.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

llombardo said:


> 20% is really low. If I may ask, what food is that? When I was trying to find a low protein and/or low fat food, I found nothing with those numbers at all.


Tractor Supply Healthy weight. 

4health? Healthy Weight Formula for Adult Dogs, 35 lb. Bag - Tractor Supply Co.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

She's lacking muscle so it's hard to put a number on what she should be.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> No, she's not much overweight, she weighs about 5lbs more than when those pics were taken though (75 now). I can easily see her going to 80 lbs in the next month if she continues the pattern. She hasn't gained any height for 3 months.


She is still young so she is going to fill out. I would concentrate on more exercise to build muscle and leave the food where it's at.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

What food are you feeding again?


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> 20% is really low. If I may ask, what food is that? When I was trying to find a low protein and/or low fat food, I found nothing with those numbers at all.
> 
> The lower % of proteins are going to typically require more food. The food they are on now is 37%. They get about 2-2.5 cups of that a day.


dogfoodadvisor says it's 26% type maybe?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Tractor Supply Healthy weight.
> 
> 4health? Healthy Weight Formula for Adult Dogs, 35 lb. Bag - Tractor Supply Co.


Duh, I give this food to my two older dogs, but I follow the formula I gave and they maintain their weight(super important for my older golden). I can't give it to Midnite at all(allergies), so the GSDs get the higher protein food.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> dogfoodadvisor says it's 26% type maybe?


I was asking another poster about their food, but which one is yours again?


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> What food are you feeding again?


I've been feeding her the Rachael Ray Turkey & Potato grain free - it's the only one that got a "B" rating from her whole group.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

With pups you need to calculate an ideal adult body weight, not their ideal weight at the moment. Pups will eat more than adults of their same size. 26 in female shepherd will likely be in the 80lb range. I always say stay low, calculate for 80lbs.

I don't think she looks overweight. She does have a tuck in the first picture. Of course hard to see. Your vet would be the best one to ask, and if you're concerned about her weight you should see your vet before putting a puppy on a diet formula, which I would be much more concerned about in the long run.

Don't be worried about her suddenly gaining weight until she is overweight. She's a young pup still, she will gain weight until she's at least 2 yrs old. You're already feeding below the recommended feeding, I would keep feeding her the same amount and see what her body score, not her weight, does. 


Berlin eats 4.5-6 cups of a 509 kcal/cup food. He is a young intact male working dog. If I fed him calculated off the 32% protein content it would only be giving him 2.6 cups a day, which is way too little. 

Dog food advisor has a great calculator which follows the standard medical formula pretty well, and takes into account activity level and ideal weight. I have found feeding based off a calorie scale a lot easier for many people.

Of course, nothing is set in stone! If your dog is a great weight on what you feed, then don't mess with something that isn't broken 

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-feeding-tips/dog-food-calculator/


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Duh, I give this food to my two older dogs, but I follow the formula I gave and they maintain their weight(super important for my older golden). I can't give it to Midnite at all(allergies), so the GSDs get the higher protein food.


Tasha (Shepherd) is a senior. The other two are younger lab mixes.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I wasn't concerned until I recently found out that her Sire & sib both couldn't pass OFA. The breeder said her dam is normally 80lbs but try to keep her (my pup) at 70lbs. It's only due to this recent medical information and advise given that I should try to keep her lean.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> I wasn't concerned until I recently found out that her Sire & sib both couldn't pass OFA. The breeder said her dam is normally 80lbs but try to keep her (my pup) at 70lbs. It's only due to this recent medical information and advise given that I should try to keep her lean.


Well your pup is 10 months old. She's not going to stay at 70lbs. Even if she plateaus for a while, she will gain weight as she starts to put on adult muscle mass. The healthiest thing you can do for a dog with joint disease is both lean, low body fat, but conditioned, so nice muscle mass. Swimming is great low impact exercise that can really build a dog up 

You should try to keep any dog lean. But you don't need to starve a young growing dog. Definitely you should see your vet if you truly feel she overweight and have them look at her body condition and them they can also point out things to keep an eye out for on her physically.


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Definitely! I'd never put a puppy on a diet unless they were obviously grossly overweight. My male GSD is almost 3 and he is still slowly and steadily gaining, physically it can take a few years to mature. He plateaued and stayed at 66lbs when he first hit two until recently and is now 73lbs, he's still very lean but he's filling out, gaining more muscle and I imagine he's not done yet. They definitely are not done growing and filling out by 10months to a year old.

If she has prey drive invest in a flirt pole though keep it low impact, no jumping... My guy goes insanely nuts for it and it tires him out really well. Diet is one part of the equation but there needs to be plenty of exercise as well especially since she looks like she doesn't have much muscle mass.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks for all the info. It really helped. We will work on getting her some muscles. I'm going to take before and after picts so I can see the progress and I'll keep her at the 3 cups because she's still gaining some on that amount.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for all the info. It really helped. We will work on getting her some muscles. I'm going to take before and after picts so I can see the progress and I'll keep her at the 3 cups because she's still gaining some on that amount.


Don't do too much with her right now, she's still young  I never really start working on any conditioning until after a year old. Her skeletal structure is still growing until about a yr so you don't want to be too hard on her joints.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> Don't do too much with her right now, she's still young  I never really start working on any conditioning until after a year old. Her skeletal structure is still growing until about a yr so you don't want to be too hard on her joints.


Well, that what I thought too. Hadn't planned to do much along those lines until 13 months or so. Thanks for bringing that up.


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Good point, I did short sessions with the flirt pole when my boy was a puppy, definitely wasn't trying to condition him but it sure helped tire him out and really helped to teach him impulse control.


----------

