# breeder red flag?



## Fephie (Dec 5, 2012)

This is my first time dealing with a breeder and I need to know if this is normal. This is partially venting some frustration (raging hormonal pregnant woman here!) but Im concerned that maybe we should look at a new breeder. 
About two months ago I put a $200 deposit on a puppy for an upcoming litter. The litter was due to be born today. Last night I get a message from them saying the dog wasn't actually pregnant. What?! Is this common? They don't do any sort of confirmation of pregnancy before they take people's money and promise them a dog? I don't understand how they could not know until the day before she was due. 
Now they've offered us an import puppy from Germany for an extra $600. I don't think I can justify the extra cost. My kids are going to be heartbroken 
I don't know what to do. Im probably over reacting, and maybe this happens all the time. Would you pay the extra money if it was in your budget, or would walk away and ask for your deposit back?


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

From one hormonal pregnant lady to another, there is no excuse for this breeder not notifying you that the pregnancy didnt take until the night before the due date. That is shady-at best its inconsiderate-and I'd get my money back (if you can) and go elsewhere. There is no way I'd give that person more money for another puppy.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

PatchonGSD said:


> From one hormonal pregnant lady to another, there is no excuse for this breeder not notifying you that the pregnancy didnt take until the night before the due date. That is shady-at best its inconsiderate-and I'd get my money back (if you can) and go elsewhere. There is no way I'd give that person more money for another puppy.


Agree 100%.. and I am not a hormonal pregnant lady  That's not cool at all.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It is possible the dog was pregnant at 3 weeks, which is when some breeders do ultrasounds, but then the pregnancy terminated/resorbed/aborted.
Many breeders do not do xrays later and there is no "easy" pregnancy test as there is for people (although of course there are tests).
Some dogs look pregnant when they are not. Some dogs do not look pregnant when they are.

Any way you look at it as the potential puppy buyer.... it is very disheartening. Understandable for sure.

IMO, deposits put on litters that do not produce a puppy for a buyer, should be refunded.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

There are a few possibilities, and it is not unusual for breeders to take deposits before a breeding has taken place. They will usually allow you to transfer it to a new litter, or get a refund, if no puppies are produced.

With most dogs you can tell they are pregnant by the time the 4th or 5th week comes around, and you will know for sure by then, even without an ultrasound. However, on more than one occasion, I have had breeder friends tell me their dog didn't take, and then the dog goes into labour and voila, puppies! Just the dog wasn't showing.

I have had on one occasion a breeder friend think that the dog WAS pregnant right up until the 6th week, then all of a sudden all of the outward signs dissappeared...Maybe there were puppies and she lost them? A little late, but you never know? Maybe she had a very convincing false pregnancy? You could definitely feel little "balls" in there...

If it was me, I would look at the other litter, are they even dogs from lines that I want? If not, ask for a refund and find another breeder. If so, ask to speak to the actual breeder of the import puppy, and then make your decision.

Your kids will absolutely be heartbroken, but explain everything and how you want to make sure you get them the best friend that you can, and sometimes it takes more time. Rushing this could end badly, if you just a get a puppy to get a puppy...get the puppy that has the best chance of being a forever member of your family.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Do they do Brucellosis testing on stud and mom? 

It may be a sign that a newborn, other kids, and a German Shepherd puppy could be a bit...overwhelming?!?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It has happened to me, though I didn't put a deposit down. It's not all that rare for the breedings to not take. Some breeders are more communicative than others. For me this is not necessarily a red flag though I would expect a deposit to be refunded since there are no puppies. The deposit is there to protect the breeder from people backing out but they can't take money for a dog that doesn't exist.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

In some cases there is false pregnancies and also where the puppies are reabsorbed. The only way to make sure is an ultrasound. It's sad that this occurred. The deposit should definitely be refunded or go to another litter if possible.
I would find out why it took so long to let you know. Then maybe you will be able to make a more educated decision on where to go from here. 


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## Fephie (Dec 5, 2012)

I have no doubt that I will be able to get my deposit back. I also have the option of waiting for the next litter due in January. I just dont know if I should wait again with this guy or move on to another breeder. I felt really confident that made the right choice until now. He came highly recommended, very experienced... 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Do they do Brucellosis testing on stud and mom?
> 
> It may be a sign that a newborn, other kids, and a German Shepherd puppy could be a bit...overwhelming?!?


Well, not that it matters but Im actually pregnant as a surrogate mother for a friend. So it will just be puppy and the kids


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I had something very similar happen to me. I put a $750 deposit down on a litter that never happened due to false pregnancy. Deposit was nonrefundable. 

Breeder offered to sell me a pup from another litter, for an additional $1,000 on the purchase price. I had no problem transferring my deposit to another litter, but we had contracted at a specified purchase price ($1,500, not $2,500) and I wanted the breeder to honor that price. I was willing to honor the part of the contract that said the deposit was nonrefundable, I felt the whole contract should have been honored. 

It took more than a year to get a puppy from the breeder. In hindsight I should have walked away and chalked it up to experience. But I didn't, and I soon learned that there were other issues I had to contend with in dealing with this breeder. 

False pregnancy happens. And many breeders take deposits on unborn litters. But I think you can tell a lot about a breeder's ethics by how easily you can reach a resolution regarding transferring the deposit. The contract was for a specific price, that contract should be honored. Otherwise void the whole thing and return the deposit money. 
Sheilah


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That is much better! I don't know how or why anyone would do that on purpose!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think rather than make assumptions you should ask the breeder yourself what happened.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think a false pregnancy or reabsorbed litter reflects on the quality of the dogs or breeder.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't think a false pregnancy or reabsorbed litter reflects on the quality of the dogs or breeder.


I dont think anyone has said that. The issue was why did the breeder not notify the OP until the night before the puppies were due that the bitch wasnt pregnant and did he offer any explanation for why he took so long to let her know?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some dogs look pregnant when they are not , they even develop teats and express milk 
personally I don't take deposits , if I had I would return the money asap


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Is it possible the breeder did not know until the last minute? Has anyone ever heard of that happening....if so in what kind of situations....just curious?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Like the others said, I wouldn't take it as a red flag. It's nature and things like this happen; sometimes the breeder won't know until the due date comes and goes and there are no puppies.... so maybe the breeder told you as soon as they knew.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There are any number of things that could have happened to cause there to be no puppies, and yes with some of possible scenarios the breeder might not have known until the very last minute. It's also possible that she was pregnant, but aborted the pups or they were stillborn, and the breeder found it easier to say she wasn't pregnant than to share the horror of that experience. Either way it doesn't reflect at all on the quality of the dog or the breeder and I certainly would not consider it a red flag of any sort.


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## Fephie (Dec 5, 2012)

Chris Wild said:


> There are any number of things that could have happened to cause there to be no puppies, and yes with some of possible scenarios the breeder might not have known until the very last minute. It's also possible that she was pregnant, but aborted the pups or they were stillborn, and the breeder found it easier to say she wasn't pregnant than to share the horror of that experience. Either way it doesn't reflect at all on the quality of the dog or the breeder and I certainly would not consider it a red flag of any sort.


That's exactly what I wanted to know. I have no judgement of him or his dogs for not getting pregnant. I completely understood that it was a possibility with reserving an unborn pup. My only concern was that they didn't let me know sooner. I just assumed that the breeder would know for sure before the due date.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Good luck. Many breeders specify non refundable deposits so they could string you along forever, I guess. Maybe people should demand better contracts, if at all possible.


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## Candace (Sep 13, 2012)

I had this happen to me and I also didn't find out that that the litter wasn't viable till I contacted them. On researching further into the breeder. I have since chalked up his lack of communication to the fact he is a typical old school man, not a talker and more interested in his dogs then the people his selling them too. This was hard for me as I am a big talker and would of preferred constant updates, especially once the 2nd litter I went with was born. All communication has been instigated by me. I have however been assured that he knows his stuff by the local GSD community and this is just him. However good luck with your decision. I think it's something we also need to add to the checklist of researching breeders is that they also match your expectations of communication too, not just good bloodlines, titles and reputation etc. 


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I will never work with deposits anymore after a bad experience. I'll pay for the pup the day I pick him/her up. I might miss out on a pup the time I decide I am ready but so be it. I have time to wait for the right one to come along. I believe that if it's meant to be you'll find the dog you were looking for.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

AS many say, it is often at the last minute that the realization hits that there is no litter...many many reasons.....I don't usually do pregnancy checks/head counts until very late - BUT I don't take deposits until pups hit the ground either.....and I don't cash deposit checks until they are a few weeks old....

I have also honored old prices on pups when I have had someone waiting a long time.....if they have an import litter, there may be more costs involved in that particular litter - but at the same time, I would expect to get a pup for the price I was quoted or have the deposit returned - non refundable is applicable if the pup IS available and the buyer backs out, if the pup is not available, then it is refundable (at least in my definition!)

If you don't want to wait - you may find another litter you like - but you may not....

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I appreciate you folks answering my question....to OP if you were comfortable with breeder stick with them, if you have an unplausible reason given for the late notice move on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't do x-rays or an ultra-sound unless I think there might be an issue. And since lots of females gain weight and sometimes have other signs of pregnancy, it is typical not to know until the due date, or after the due date. 

This is nature. Dogs seem to have litters when bred at a higher rate than humans get pregnant, but it simply isn't 100% And, the health of my girls and the pups is more important than whether buyers know today or 1 week earlier. Getting her x-rayed just so potential buyers will know 9 weeks prior to their bringing home a puppy instead of 8 weeks prior to bringing home a puppy is simply a no-brainer to me. 

The amount of x-ray the bitch undergoes for a litter of puppies is very small. But if you add hip x-rays, and maybe x-raying an injury, and then x-raying the bitch prior to having each litter, and every false pregnancy, and possibly after to to ensure no retained puppy, well, it can add up, and it is really un-necessary.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

I agree with every1 never trust breeders 100% especially from backyards breeders. They could just be ripping you off which is true. It's breeder to do research with other breeders and ask them all sorts of questions. Search online or ask on here what to ask, warning phrases, and what to look for in responsible breeders. Sorry about the kids dissappointed but in the end I'm sure they'll be happier with a GSD who's VERY experience and knows what they are doing and are very honest.

http://www.gsdca.org/german-shepher...dca.org/german-shepherd-dogs/choosing-a-puppy

Look on the website above to research more so that your more careful about choosing a dog from breeders.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

carmspack said:


> some dogs look pregnant when they are not , they even develop teats and express milk
> personally I don't take deposits , if I had I would return the money asap


It's true,
Phantom pregnancy is not unusual. There have been plenty of false pregnancies even after a semen count, progesterone test and a well timed AI. Then... Empty... It happens.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Our breeder knew how many puppies they were having way before the due date. I guess not all of them do ultrasound. Sorry about your frustration =/


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

also remember that the due date is not a singular day . A female may be bred over a 5 day period -- had one happy female that would stand almost the entire 21 days of the cycle - you witness a tie , you figure out when those pups are due. Anyway even at best the gestation time is 60 to 63 days , then figure out if conception was on day one or the last time you had a tie , and then the semen has a survivability of 48 hrs(?) so conception again is not the date of the tie .

You may have in some cases a litter that may be born a week later than expected by calendar estimation.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

It's hard to figure out the best way to handle deposits, but I do think the "nonrefundable no matter what" deposit policies are pretty crappy for the puppy buyer. And as a breeder, I don't want someone to get a puppy from me just because they got "trapped" by giving a deposit.

Ultrasound and xray counts are notoriously inaccurate. If I suspect a female isn't pregnant, I would try to give anyone with a deposit a head's up just so the disappointment isn't a surprise. But what if you have a disaster and a mom/pups don't survive? These things can happen. But then I think the deposit should be refunded if the puppy buyer doesn't want to carry it forward to a future litter.

My main concern as someone taking deposits is that I don't want to turn away a great home because I don't have a puppy available--only to have a buyer back out at the last minute--that's a case where a deposit would not be refunded.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> also remember that the due date is not a singular day . A female may be bred over a 5 day period -- had one happy female that would stand almost the entire 21 days of the cycle - you witness a tie , you figure out when those pups are due. Anyway even at best the gestation time is 60 to 63 days , then figure out if conception was on day one or the last time you had a tie , and then the semen has a survivability of 48 hrs(?) so conception again is not the date of the tie .
> 
> You may have in some cases a litter that may be born a week later than expected by calendar estimation.


O C'mon Carmen, everyone knows that breeders should take their bitches in multiple times and have their blood tested mutliple times to pinpoint the exact day of ovulation. Then that can add 63 days to that, and they can then schedule the day off, and tell all their prospective puppy buyers when the pups are due. 

At about 4 weeks they just must do an ultrasound to ensure that conception has taken place and there are puppies. It won't tell you the number or sex though, but you might as well contact puppy buyers with that information at well. If the bitch contracts something while at the vet and loses the litter, well tough luck, it is just so much more important that we have that information for the puppy buyers that are going to split or get a puppy elsewhere before these guys are ready to go anyway. 

Because we don't know how many yet, we should go ahead and take her back to the vet at about 8 weeks along to get a count. Puppy buyers will want to know this too, even though, again they will not know if they are males or females either, and they will not even know if the count is accurate, but, what the hey, get her x-rayed and expose her to the vet again, and x-rays again. 

And, just because your bitch _was _pregnant, doesn't mean she stayed pregnant. Bitches can resorb puppies for a number of weeks. 

It is nature. It happens. I generally wait a week before contacting, though I have only lost pups once after the first day. That first week though is always kind of nerve-racking.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Deposits seems to be a huge personal preference. I know breeders that do 10% down, up to 50% down. I don't know any that take deposits before birth. I know one woman that offers them up for sale at 2 weeks, but will not consider a puppy sold until it is payed for, so you can pay all up front, and she will make sure the contract is there, but if something happens to the pup, she will refund 100%. Then, the refundable part.. some offer no refund, no NOTHING, while some offer to move it to another litter, and others offer to pay it back... it's all a matter of each person. I think if it were I , I would just take a percentage, non refundable, with an option for next litter, but not an option to hold past the NEXT litter. After that it is forfeited.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Then you have the other option. I just don't take deposits. If someone decides to move on then so be it.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I don't think the quality or repute of a breeder can be ascertained through answering the question of whether or not they accept deposits. Or by how aggressively/expensively they investigate the status of the supposed pregnancy.

But I surely do believe that an ethical, reputable breeder will NOT wait for those who have given deposits to contact them for updates to share the news that there is no litter. And I also believe that an ethical, reputable breeder would also honor the contracted purchase price and offer at least one comparable replacement option at that contracted purchase price. 

After all, if you (the universal breeder "you") insist on following the letter of the contract that says no refunds ever, then all aspects of that contract should be followed, including the purchase price. Picking and choosing which aspects of a contract you'll follow in the case of a problem stinks.
Sheilah


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## Noles20 (Dec 27, 2011)

I don't know anything about breeding dogs but I do know a lot about communication. A good communicator considers how the message will be received. In this case, while it may have seemed normal to the breeder that the dog was not pregnant, to the buyer, this might not make sense at all. It would have been helpful for the breeder to offer the buyer some kind of explanation. If he/she can educate the buyer and help it make sense to him/her, both parites would benefit. Failing to do this does not make the breeder a bad breeder at all. My 2 cents.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Lisa... do you not accept anything to hold until the pups are old enough to go home?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Nope. I took a deposit once because she was insistent. I actually have only had one person back out and it was due to extenuating circumstances. I never want a buyer to feel like they are obligated to get a pup nor do I ever want to feel like I am obligated to sell a pup. I am always more than willing to keep back puppies for as long as needed. There is a market for started young dogs with prelims so I don't worry about being "stuck" with a puppy.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

After reading some "horror" stories about what happens when someone picks a breeder, puts down a deposit to go on a waiting list for a puppy, and then have to wait a year or more for their turn to finally come up...I don't know if I'd ever do something like that. Mostly because I can't plan a year ahead, and with something like a puppy its tough to just sit around and wait for that phone call that your turn is finally up.

Too many breeders out there that regular people can purchase from that would give you a very solid puppy. For those looking for a particular line or a particular grandparent/parent...then yes...you might have to search the one breeder out that has that, but for the rest of us its pretty crazy to put down a deposit and then not really know when you'll get a dog.

My current dog...I put down a deposit but it was after the pups were born and on the ground. My next dog...I'm dealing with a club member and good friend so I don't think a deposit will be necessary. Plus if I do have to back out for any reason, she'll find a home for this dog before I get done telling her that I can't take her.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

Noles20 said:


> I don't know anything about breeding dogs but I do know a lot about communication. A good communicator considers how the message will be received. In this case, while it may have seemed normal to the breeder that the dog was not pregnant, to the buyer, this might not make sense at all. It would have been helpful for the breeder to offer the buyer some kind of explanation. If he/she can educate the buyer and help it make sense to him/her, both parites would benefit. Failing to do this does not make the breeder a bad breeder at all. My 2 cents.


Nicely said,
Professionals in any field sometimes take things for granted and in there mind instantly chalk it up as a "given" and unintentionally forget that not everyone knows as much as they do on the subject. I am guilty of this as well as other professionals in any field. Sometimes we just unintentionally disregard the competency level of who we are speaking with.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

You should also remember that the breeder might have been very upset about losing the litter and didn't want to draw out their own pain with a long explanation of what happened. Or it could have been a grisly or sad story that they didn't think that others would want to hear the details of.
As others have said, it could have been that they thought there was a litter until the due date. 
"There are no puppies. I'm sorry" is really all of the answer they might have been up to giving at the time...


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

Fephie said:


> I have no doubt that I will be able to get my deposit back. I also have the option of waiting for the next litter due in January. I just dont know if I should wait again with this guy or move on to another breeder. I felt really confident that made the right choice until now. He came highly recommended, very experienced...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, not that it matters but Im actually pregnant as a surrogate mother for a friend. So it will just be puppy and the kids


Sorry I am of no help, but this is super cool. You're doing kind of an awesome thing and a really nice thing..your friend had a good friend indeed.


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## Fancy (Feb 17, 2013)

GusGus said:


> Sorry I am of no help, but this is super cool. You're doing kind of an awesome thing and a really nice thing..your friend had a good friend indeed.


 
I agree completely!!


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## Fancy (Feb 17, 2013)

I had a hard time finding the breeder I wanted. 
Then finding the right future litter that was planned too. It was a chore.
I settled on Surefire and Rhonda was great. I wanted 1st pick so I sent my $500 deposit and waited for the pregnancy to take. Rhonda kept me informed via email thru out the pregnancy on how the bitch was doing. I was informed that if something happens and the pregnancy goes bad and no male puppy for me I would be refunded or I can wait for the next litter. 

I also checked the GSD clubs first and then looked up their breeders.
Thats how I found Surefire. 

I hope you find your fur baby soon.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The thread was from Dec. She found her puppy and posted about it.


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## Fancy (Feb 17, 2013)

Missed that one sorry!


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