# Rescues: can a retired PPD be placed in a pet home?



## Magwart

Our rescue is being asked to pull a lovely, _supposedly _well-bred senior working line F that once was a personal protection dog. She's apparently had a lovely disposition in the shelter, but she dies Friday without a rescue commitment. 

We generally avoid taking dogs with bite training as 99% of our adoptions are to pet homes that just want a family dog. The local IPO community does not support or adopt from rescues -- so we do not expect any support from them for a dog like this. I'm thus not sure what to do with her, were we to pull her.

From what I've cobbled together third and fourth hand, her story is that when she was done breeding, her breeder sold her to a retirement home intact (which possibly continued to breed her anyway?)...with a contract to return her if it didn't work out. Two years later, she was instead dumped at a shelter. The shelter won't release her without spaying, and once the breeder found out and contacted the shelter, the breeder declined take her back if the shelter spays her. The shelter won't release with out spaying and wants us to pull her. We need another senior dog like a hole in the head -- but she's been bred and bred, and then dumped, which always makes my heart ache.

The problem is the bite training. It's not our world -- and the liability associated with putting a bite-trained dog in the hands of a pet dog owner scares the stuffing out of me. We know we can't find adopters from that world locally, as they've given us a very cold shoulder in the past. 

So what do you do with a dog like this in rescue?  I know nothing whatsoever about the training a PPD has had, so I'm very curious as to what the options are for a dog like this. Any creative suggestions welcomed, as the shelter director is a friend, and the shelter's in a rural area far, far off the beaten path.


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## d4lilbitz

Shame on the breeder for KNOWING the dog is in the shelter, but refusing to take her unless she's not spayed. Perhaps if she has a good, solid temperament, then she can be fostered by someone experienced until a permanent solution is found.


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## Cheyanna

Where is she?


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## Magwart

She's in a rural shelter, far, far from any major city, in South Louisiana. Oh---and she's HW(+), but aren't they all down here. She's tagged as "rescue only."

There's no PPD-experienced foster. There are "dog-experienced" fosters, who are themselves pet dog owners. And there's a needle. Those are pretty much the options right now.


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## Lykoz

Let the dog avoid death... Don't spay it give it to the breeder.... Would you rather see a dog die than break one rule? 

I am more disappointed every day with people involved in shelters. 

Poor dogs must suffer... Because of your politics.

The breeder probably had first option to take dog back... But other party was stupid, embarrassed and wanted to save face....

It is the breeders right to have that dog intact and as it was...


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## BahCan

Is there any way to verify that she was actually a PPD....many people claim their dogs to be PPD's when in fact they are not.


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## Magwart

Lykoz, I'll pre-empt this by saying: 
(1) I'm not asking your opinion of the shelter. 
(2) I don't run the shelter. 
(3) The rescue I work with (a non-profit, foster-based charity) is the dog's only possible source to safety right now, because the shelter has her tagged "rescue only," and if our rescue doesn't to and pull her from the government shelter, she likely dies. 

You are *welcome* to think I'm stupid, lazy, and worthless if that floats your boat because I have to work with shelter staff -- but I don't make the rules. I have no influence on them making the spay/neuter decisions. I'm honestly not interested in your political criticism of the GOVERNMENT-RUN shelter that is acting pursuant to STATE LAW regarding spay/neuter of stray dogs found in MY STATE. Please go troll another thread if you want to start that same old argument about rescues and shelters and spay/neuter laws. Just keep it off my thread, please, which is about whether this dog can be safely placed, given our constraints. I *have* to follow state law in working with the shelter. There's no arguing about it. 

I'm looking for people with solutions as this dog has a ticking clock, not political agendas.


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## Magwart

The information came of Pedigree Database. I have no other info than that on her training.


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## David Winners

Do you have an experienced trainer that can evaluate the dog for temperament? All dogs can bite. Good bitework training simply instills rules to how and when the dog is allowed to bite. No need to be automatically fearful of a dog that is PPD trained. 

No need to assume that the dog is safe either. It needs to be evaluated by a professional. Sarah Kalnajs has a DVD "Am I Safe" that is a good resource for temperament testing for fosters. 

Management and controlled interaction can keep you and the dog safe if you decide to pull her. I would advise the same when fostering any dog until you have a good idea of what you have.


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## Magwart

Thanks, David. I'll look for that DVD. I have local pet dog trainers, but not IPO or PPD trainers. If she were local to me, I might be able to get a K9 officer to look at her. Our problem is that she's so far away, getting any resources to visit her way out in the swamp is a really big challenge.

We do routine temp testing of shelter dogs pretty regularly, looking for any triggers of aggression (playing, taking toys, etc.), looking for prey-drive toward other pets and kids, willingness to be handled, responsiveness to mild correction, reaction to food, and the like. We can evaluate "a dog" with some confidence -- as we do it all the time when we visit shelters. I'm just not sure how the training she's had changes the evaluation (or if it does?).

The shelter director who has her used to be the head behaviorist in a large city shelter I work with a lot, and while not a professional trainer, when this person tells me a dog has a good disposition it counts for a lot more than when I hear that from most shelter staff, as I know she's putting the dog through something like the ASPCA's S.A.F.E.R. test (which has many weaknesses as a temp test, but at least tends to reveal the dangerous fear-biter dogs). 

So far, they've haven't seen an iota of ill-will from her toward anybody. She's been nothing but sweet with volunteers and staff. 

Can these dogs ever get confused in the wrong hands and direct their bite training on a wrong target accidentally, or is that something training should make impossible? Put differently, if she never hears her protection training commands again, do they just fade away, like a dog forgetting "sit" and "down"?


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## Sabis mom

Magwart, where is she? I have some ideas. MIGHT have a line on some contacts to help you out.


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## David Winners

Everything your dog does is in context to the situation. If you are having a conversation with a friend with your dog present and you say, " I need to sit on the chair down there because I have had to stand all day and my heel is sore." Will your dog be running through positions? 

If a guy in a puffy coat comes running, screaming at the dog, it may react. If someone starts wrestling with you, it may react. It depends on her training. Fama, my retired MWD, reacted to an employee at home depot that was wearing an apron, carrying a piece of lumber towards us. I'm sure it looked to her like a man dressed in traditional middle eastern clothing that posed a threat. I outed her and had her go say hi to him. I'm now working on counter conditioning this behavior. 

There may be things like this that come up. There may not. 

Remember, she's a dog, like all the dogs you rescue. Treat her like a dog. Don't assume anything. Just pay attention and be ready to handle whatever situation comes up, just like with any dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I'm thinking - but without the knowledge that he has - what David is thinking! My other thought is that there is a chance we have all pulled and fostered dogs with either actual PPD training and had no idea of it, and that worse, we have fostered dogs that have been half-buttedly put through Schutzhund or PPD training and we get stuck undoing some of the stupidity that their owners inflicted on them (note - I am not saying either type of training is stupid, just there are people out there training dogs who should not be and the dogs end up with some weird behaviors). 

What I am wondering - pull her if you can/have room - it sounds like that rescue is the only chance, bring her in, have her evaled by people that will then be close to her, and keep her under eval during her HW treatment, and add a few months at the end (since it tires them and want to see who she is going to be so you need extra months after the end to do that), eval her again, and see if, in all that time, you can get in touch with people who trained with her for more info. 

As far as the potential adopter pool and liability, I hope you can find a workaround addendum to your contract and maybe network within other sub-communities of dog savvy people that may offer a solid home for her. 

Good luck, I hope you can help her. It is not easy because it's like accepting a dog into a program with a known bite - the issue with that is that those are always out of control, whereas with her, she has no known out of control bite history (and no known actual bite history - people have guns they never shoot in defense, and PPD that never bite other than in training, right?).


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## Lykoz

My solution is the simplest... Most logical... And will end with the dog not being put down... (You would *THINK* that is what everyone wants).

Firstly I am not so much hypocritical of your rescue efforts... It is the shelter that wont release the dog that is disappointing.

Tell your 'friend' at the shelter how it is...

The previous breeder seems to have had a contract that allows him to take back the dog intact as first option should have anything like this happen...

The second breeder acted negligently leading to this situation. That dog SHOULD have NEVER even ENTERED the SHELTER... IT is Red Tape, and administrative bull-****... Pretend it never happened...

the first breeder likely has a legal right to own that dog intact it seems...

He would never take a shelter to court because it would severely impact his public image.. (If you have not already hurt it)...

Just let it go... I am sorry but all the shelters meddling in this is only doing harm to the dog...

"If you could kill a single child, to create Utopia on earth.. Would you kill the child?"
Dont answer.. The question wont make sense to you.. It is rhetorical..

Nothing good can ever come from a single bad deed, in creating a 'perfect world'...


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## Debanneball

Correct me if I am wrong, but your advice is to 'let the dog die?'.. Its not the dog's fault it ended up in the shelter, nor is it the breeders.. 




Lykoz said:


> My solution is the simplest... Most logical... And will end with the dog not being put down... (You would *THINK* that is what everyone wants).
> 
> Firstly I am not so much hypocritical of your rescue efforts... It is the shelter that wont release the dog that is disappointing.
> 
> Tell your 'friend' at the shelter how it is...
> 
> The previous breeder seems to have had a contract that allows him to take back the dog intact as first option should have anything like this happen...
> 
> The second breeder acted negligently leading to this situation. That dog SHOULD have NEVER even ENTERED the SHELTER... IT is Red Tape, and administrative bull-****... Pretend it never happened...
> 
> the first breeder likely has a legal right to own that dog intact it seems...
> 
> He would never take a shelter to court because it would severely impact his public image.. (If you have not already hurt it)...
> 
> Just let it go... I am sorry but all the shelters meddling in this is only doing harm to the dog...
> 
> "If you could kill a single child, to create Utopia on earth.. Would you kill the child?"
> Dont answer.. The question wont make sense to you.. It is rhetorical..
> 
> Nothing good can ever come from a single bad deed, in creating a 'perfect world'...


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## martemchik

First, the shelter is probably what is more commonly referred to as “the pound.” So they have rules because they are a government organization. The rule about not releasing intact animals, is a pretty **** good one considering they’re in the business of controlling the pet population and releasing intact animals is kind of going against that.

Second, there is probably bad blood between the breeder and the second owner, which is why the second owner didn’t just send the dog back to the breeder. Or, possibly just too lazy to drive the dog another hour or two to the original breeder.

Third, the original breeder is the one that’s in the wrong. If they truly do know about the dog, but won’t take it unless it’s intact, they’re the ones being selfish and unreasonable and uncaring. This person is basically saying, a spayed female is worthless to me (most likely because they’d like to breed to make more puppies) and a waste of money so that breeder is basically saying that they’d probably end up putting the dog down.

The whole thing with bitework is iffy. I’ve seen so many dogs taught the wrong way that I’d be very cautious about placing this type of dog in a home. You’ll never know what kind of training it got, and you won’t ever know what kind of temperament the dog has until it gets comfortable and is able to be itself again. It’s probably a good sign that the dog hasn’t bitten any of the shelter staff yet, as that is a high stress environment and if the dog did have issues, that would definitely be a situation where you’d see the training possibly come out and the dog bite someone. But it hasn’t, so that does say something about the dog.

If I were you, start contacting working line breeders in the area. Just see if they’ve had people looking for older dogs. I know that “serious” IPO people won’t want an older dog with a questionable foundation, but someone that just likes working lines, and wants an older dog, might be more than willing to get this dog. There are a lot of people that dabble in Schutzhund or other bite sport and wouldn’t mind having fun with an older dog. Also, not quite sure how old she is, so if she’s still in working condition/age, that’s always a plus. You might get a hit and be able to pull the dog, evaluate, and know there is already a possible adopter.


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## David Winners

Lykoz said:


> Let the dog avoid death... Don't spay it give it to the breeder.... Would you rather see a dog die than break one rule?
> 
> I am more disappointed every day with people involved in shelters.
> 
> Poor dogs must suffer... Because of your politics.
> 
> The breeder probably had first option to take dog back... But other party was stupid, embarrassed and wanted to save face....
> 
> It is the breeders right to have that dog intact and as it was...


The breeder doesn't want the dog. How is your solution the best? If it goes back to the breeder spayed, they will probably put it down. The shelter has rules to protect overpopulation. 

They should pull the dog, have it spayed, treat the heartworm and look for an appropriate home. If it hasn't bit anyone in the shelter, it's not a nutter. 

Your opinion that the shelter should break it's rules is invalid. Why would they send a dog back to a puppy mill unaltered?


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## GatorBytes

The dog is a senior, HW+ and the shelter wants to spay her?  When? after she's adopted or rescued and goes thru treatment? 

I would hope she wouldn't be used for breeding. Would make sense to appeal to the shelter on those grounds and have returned to breeder #1 to at least foster and find her a home. I mean if the breeder is ethical he/she wouldn't breed a HW+ Dog, nor a senior


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## David Winners

martemchik said:


> If I were you, start contacting working line breeders in the area. Just see if they’ve had people looking for older dogs. I know that “serious” IPO people won’t want an older dog with a questionable foundation, but someone that just likes working lines, and wants an older dog, might be more than willing to get this dog. There are a lot of people that dabble in Schutzhund or other bite sport and wouldn’t mind having fun with an older dog. Also, not quite sure how old she is, so if she’s still in working condition/age, that’s always a plus. You might get a hit and be able to pull the dog, evaluate, and know there is already a possible adopter.


Any dog can bite. Lots of people dabble in bitework and never follow through. They will say the dog is PPD trained, but it's never really been past tug and sleeve games. I never assume anything when evaluating a dog. People lie to pump themselves up. 

I support the idea of looking for someone interested in IPO. An older dog can be fun and forgiving.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I would take a chance on the dog. There are so many positives about her. Get her into rescue, fostered with one of the "great with dogs fosters". I think they will be able to handle her fine. In that time, the rescue can have her evaluated by a K-9 officer or someone with experience with this type of dog. 

There are older people, perhaps a retired officer, who would be a perfect match for her.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Magwart said:


> Lykoz, I'll pre-empt this by saying:
> (1) I'm not asking your opinion of the shelter.
> (2) I don't run the shelter.
> (3) The rescue I work with (a non-profit, foster-based charity) is the dog's only possible source to safety right now, because the shelter has her tagged "rescue only," and if our rescue doesn't to and pull her from the government shelter, she likely dies.
> 
> You are *welcome* to think I'm stupid, lazy, and worthless if that floats your boat because I have to work with shelter staff -- but I don't make the rules. I have no influence on them making the spay/neuter decisions. I'm honestly not interested in your political criticism of the GOVERNMENT-RUN shelter that is acting pursuant to STATE LAW regarding spay/neuter of stray dogs found in MY STATE. Please go troll another thread if you want to start that same old argument about rescues and shelters and spay/neuter laws. Just keep it off my thread, please, which is about whether this dog can be safely placed, given our constraints. I *have* to follow state law in working with the shelter. There's no arguing about it.
> 
> I'm looking for people with solutions as this dog has a ticking clock, not political agendas.


I agree 1000% with this post. We have had more than a few threads get hijacked in order to push an agenda or politics or whatever warped view of oneself. If we politely ignore those who attempt to do so, then the attempt fizzles out. JMO

Susan


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## onyx'girl

Even if she has been trained in protection, it is usually not a detriment. Unless the training was crap. Protection training is based in obedience.


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## CassandGunnar

I would try, as much as possible, to treat this like any other owner surrender.
Try and get a reliable assessment and be extra vigilant about where she ends up.
This isn't a dog with a bite history, this is a dog with (possible) PPD training.
If she has an otherwise good temperament and passes the other aspects of the assessment, I would have no problem pulling her.
Like almost all rescue dogs, the biggest "problem" would be matching her to a home that will give her what she needs, like continued training and simulation.


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## martemchik

David Winners said:


> Any dog can bite. Lots of people dabble in bitework and never follow through. They will say the dog is PPD trained, but it's never really been past tug and sleeve games. I never assume anything when evaluating a dog. People lie to pump themselves up.
> 
> I support the idea of looking for someone interested in IPO. An older dog can be fun and forgiving.


Yeah, I know any dog can bite. But it's not about the dog, its more about the perception of the public in regards to a bite trained dog. I’m with you, I’d almost assume this dog hasn’t had any kind of real PPD training or bite training, but a rescue can’t really take that chance. If this dog gets placed in a home, bites someone, and it comes out that the dog had bite training and the rescue placed this dog in a not friendly situation for that type of dog, the rescue will get a lot of bad press, might even be found liable to a certain extent.

I’m on the side that most dogs that have had bite training are probably more stable than those that haven’t, but I still wouldn’t put the reputation or assets of a rescue at risk because of that kind of thinking. The one time you get it wrong, is probably the end of the rescue.

It sounds like OP is a bit worried that there isn’t a foster home for a dog like this available to the rescue organization. Which would be an issue in the interim while finding the dog a home. Hopefully someone isn’t too worried and can take this dog in.


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## Lykoz

Legally speaking the first breeder has a clear contract apparently that he gets 'first' choice should the dog be rehomed for any reason...

So the shelter has been put in as an intermediary probably illegally... By the second owner... How can you make decisions, about a dog that should never have been presented to you in the first place.. (The fact that first breeder had a first choice in rehoming policy and bad blood with the second breeder, paints a much better picture of the first breeder... i.e. he was unhappy with how the second breeder was treating the dog...)

(The shelter did not find anything wrong with first breeder... They were willing to give the dog to him if it was neutered... So this is a neutering issue... Not an issue with the breeder per say)

Lets get past the legislative aspect... And pretend that this contract does not exist...

Fine place the dog... Figure out another solution...

Just please don't let the dog be put down because of this red tape...
Its just not fair...

I think there are too many dogs that need placement to be so hypocritical on a dog that has already found a home, just because you have an agenda against breeding dogs...
If you think the first breeder is a "puppy mill" and abusing his dogs.... Which is not the picture I am getting... Then work to confiscate all his dogs... Not just stop one dog from going back to him... Which he is willing to help... (I dont see why he necessarily 'needs' that dog placed back with him).. 

This is not a clear cut case of somebody abandoning a dog... And now it belongs to the shelter... And its future is in their hands...

This is a dog that contractual law should have gone back (As an option) straight to the first breeder... 

It's a pity the second breeder was such a scumbag, and just threw it into the shelter.


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## Magwart

Sabis mom said:


> Magwart, where is she? I have some ideas. MIGHT have a line on some contacts to help you out.


Sent you a PM with the info. She needs a rescue at this point, not an adopter since she's marked "rescue only." A good adopter who works with a legitimate rescue may turn into a foster-to-adopt situation though. (The shelter will ask any rescue for 501(c)(3) paperwork and a rescue vet ref.)


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## Magwart

Debanneball said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but your advice is to 'let the dog die?'.. Its not the dog's fault it ended up in the shelter, nor is it the breeders..


Please don't feed the trolls. Let's keep the focus on what the dog needs to get out of the situation she's in, not the distraction, political musing, and policy debate.  We can all agree it's not her fault, she was dealt a very unfair hand, and she doesn't deserve to die. The government shelter (yes, "dog pound") is legally empowered by state law to "dispose of her" once surrendered by the actual owner...which happened. They are looking to get her into a rescue to be sure she's safe. They don't want to kill her -- that's why the shelter director reached out to us, and other rescues. Everybody's full. 

We have one possible foster space with a very social home -- not a place for a dog who might think a screaming neighbor kid running by in a puffy coat is a target, but a _great _foster home for a dog that just wants to goof around with other dogs, chase a ball, and enjoy lots of attention and outings. This is a home with no experience "outing" a dog though--purely pet dog people. That's the dilemma.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Sent you a PM.


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## David Winners

Lykoz said:


> Legally speaking the first breeder has a clear contract apparently that he gets 'first' choice should the dog be rehomed for any reason...
> 
> So the shelter has been put in as an intermediary probably illegally... By the second owner... How can you make decisions, about a dog that should never have been presented to you in the first place.. (The fact that first breeder had a first choice in rehoming policy and bad blood with the second breeder, paints a much better picture of the first breeder... i.e. he was unhappy with how the second breeder was treating the dog...)
> 
> (The shelter did not find anything wrong with first breeder... They were willing to give the dog to him if it was neutered... So this is a neutering issue... Not an issue with the breeder per say)
> 
> Lets get past the legislative aspect... And pretend that this contract does not exist...
> 
> Fine place the dog... Figure out another solution...
> 
> Just please don't let the dog be put down because of this red tape...
> Its just not fair...
> 
> I think there are too many dogs that need placement to be so hypocritical on a dog that has already found a home, just because you have an agenda against breeding dogs...
> If you think the first breeder is a "puppy mill" and abusing his dogs.... Which is not the picture I am getting... Then work to confiscate all his dogs... Not just stop one dog from going back to him... Which he is willing to help... (I dont see why he necessarily 'needs' that dog placed back with him)..
> 
> This is not a clear cut case of somebody abandoning a dog... And now it belongs to the shelter... And its future is in their hands...
> 
> This is a dog that contractual law should have gone back (As an option) straight to the first breeder...
> 
> It's a pity the second breeder was such a scumbag, and just threw it into the shelter.


The breeder refused the dog. It's fairly simple. The contract is void if the breeder doesn't want the dog.


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## Magwart

onyx'girl said:


> Even if she has been trained in protection, it is usually not a detriment. Unless the training was crap. Protection training is based in obedience.


How do we figure out if it's crap? Let's assume I can't find her trainer (not certain yet, but go off the assumption). Tell me about the red flags you would look for in a dog who's training is unknown that might give away "crap" training -- that will help here!

David's right--she's not a nutter. I know how this shelter director does temp testing. We can assume she's done something like ASPCA's SAFER protocol (which is probably unfairly over-inclusive, if anything, in the dogs it identifies as potentially aggressive), and no signs of aggression came up. Assume everything so far points to a very stable temperament.

What would "crap" training do in a dog with a stable temperament, and how do you recognize it?


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## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> The breeder refused the dog. It's fairly simple. The contract is void if the breeder doesn't want the dog.


The breeder refused the dog altered. Showed interest in the dog unaltered.
I dont know what the contract states specifically.

The situation would be different if the first breeder made the decision to neuter the dog... (And even then, the contract may have been that the dog remains unaltered health allowing... It is a contract between two breeders)

But how can a third party make this decision... If the first breeder specifically had a contract that allowed him first option of ownership?

It does not legally make sense... By what is described by the OP... The dog had to go to 1st breeder (as an option- and if he did not take it.. The contract would then be void)... Then to the shelter...

Not 2nd breeder.. Shelter... then 1st breeder...

Obviously the Shelter is stuck between a rock and a hard place now...

But legally speaking that dog should have been offered to first breeder first...

They know what happened now... So Again best solution is to pretend the dog never came to the shelter at all... And respect the legal proceedings

How can the shelter make a decsision like that on a dog that is not legaly under their 'juristiction'... They know the facts... They know what happened... How can you just ignore the contract law...

I really hope we have a legal expert in the forum to chime in here...


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## Magwart

Lykoz, please stop. The situation is what it is. The government has the power here, whether you agree or not. Please accept that there is a legal framework that the shelter is operating under that may be different from what you know or agree with. You are WELCOME to fly to Louisiana to address our state legislature to tell them you don't like our laws. Just keep it off this dog's thread.


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## Lykoz

Magwart said:


> Lykoz, please stop. The situation is what it is. The government has the power here, whether you agree or not. Please accept that there is a legal framework that the shelter is operating under that may be different from what you know or agree with. You are WELCOME to fly to Louisiana to address our state legislature to tell them you don't like our laws. Just keep it off this dog's thread.


Are you the legal expert of Louisiana that I was hoping would chime in?

How can you be so sure that you are correct?

The contract law was clear... If owner no longer wants the dog... The 1st breeder gets first choice...

That did not happen... the Shelter got 'first choice'...

There is a breach of contract..

If you want to ignore my posts, that is ok.. There are other posters giving you the help you 'want'...
In fact for the dogs sake.. I hope they are able to help you save the dog somehow, irrelevant of what the law does or does not say..

But I cant leave these things unsaid.


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## martemchik

IMO crap training would show if you try to walk up to the dog a little suspiciously and see it react with barking/lunging. So basically try to stand up to the dog and see how it responds. Don’t corner the dog (most dogs will react by fighting in that situation) but maybe have it on leash, in an open area and see what it wants to do (fight the man/run from the man/be neutral like it’s never been in that situation). It’s weird, but due to the information you have, you might have to push the dog to see where it’s “threshold” is. I think a lot of the testing you probably do to regular dogs will work, it’s just that you’ll have to come up with additional scenarios which you might expect this dog to be in and see how it might react to them.

Basically you’d like to assess what the dog considers a threat. Either genetically, or what has been taught to the dog. The best thing to do would be to have a sleeve as the dog would react to that signal if it’s seen it before. You can also see if it’s a positive reaction (more prey/play) or if it is a bit more of a reserved or aggressive reaction.


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## martemchik

Lykoz said:


> Are you the legal expert of Louisiana that I was hoping would chime in?
> 
> How can you be so sure that you are correct?
> 
> The contract law was clear... If owner no longer wants the dog... The 1st breeder gets first choice...
> 
> That did not happen... the Shelter got 'first choice'...
> 
> There is a breach of contract..


YOU DON'T EVEN LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES!!!!!! And you're calling people out about being legal experts on laws in their home state?!?!?!

Dog purchase contracts are basically useless. They are pretty much unenforceable and no one in their right mind would go to court over a dog contract. You'll end up spending way more money than you're going to gain.

If the contract was enforceable...the 1st breeder can go after the 2nd breeder for the breach of contract. They can go after that person for damages. They can't touch the shelter. If anything, they can file an injunction and probably get the shelter to hold the dog and not do anything until the lawsuit is settled...but again, no one is going to waste their time with this lawsuit. A contract basically gives you right to challenge whatever happens in court and have a court force the contract. A contract doesn't give you any right to show up to a 3rd party, and force them to execute the contract. They are not a party to the contract, they are not a legal entity that has the right to make the decision on whether or not the contract is valid and true.

Just think about it...the piece of paper...has absolutely no identifying information about the dog in question. It's just a piece of paper. So say the guy shows up to the shelter, claims that's the dog, and then it's released to him. 5 days later, someone else shows up, says the dog is theirs, and they want the dog back, but the dog is gone because the shelter decided to make the decision and give the dog to someone based on a questionable piece of paper. Do you know what would happen to the shelter in that case?


----------



## Lykoz

A dog in the state of Louisiana is considered property..

Louisianna Contract law: Rights of first Refusal of Immovable object law: (Best I could find on Louisiana:
Source: http://digitalcommons.law.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5047&context=lalrev

"Thus, initially neither party is really obligated to do anything, but rather the owner has a negative duty-that is, he may not sell the property without first offering it to the holder. The holder has no vested rights until the property is offered to him; until then the right is merely contingent. However, the complexion of the contract changes when the owner decides to sell the property and offers it to the holder. At this point the contract resembles an option. Once the offer is made, "the holder of the pre- emption does have the sole option to purchase and can compel the owner to convey or reconvey by an action for specific performance."

Law expert forum: Pertaining to dogs: Right of first refusal:

Dog Contract - Right of First Refusal

Quoting jk
View Post
"sliightly ambiguous but my take on it is:

however you intend on disposing of the animal, the breeder gets first shot at placing themselves in the contract you are cosndidering.

in other words, if you are giving the dog away, breeder gets first opportunity to take it. If you are selling it, breeder gets first opportunity to buy it.

It does not allow the breeder to take the dog back with no money exchange if you are selling the dog."

Reply: "Agreed..."


----------



## Jax08

Magwart said:


> How do we figure out if it's crap? Let's assume I can't find her trainer (not certain yet, but go off the assumption). Tell me about the red flags you would look for in a dog who's training is unknown that might give away "crap" training -- that will help here!
> 
> David's right--she's not a nutter. I know how this shelter director does temp testing. We can assume she's done something like ASPCA's SAFER protocol (which is probably unfairly over-inclusive, if anything, in the dogs it identifies as potentially aggressive), and no signs of aggression came up. Assume everything so far points to a very stable temperament.
> 
> What would "crap" training do in a dog with a stable temperament, and how do you recognize it?


Will anyone from a working club help you evaluate this dog? As Jane said, protection work is based on obedience so I would not anticipate an issue.


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## CassandGunnar

Lykoz said:


> But I cant leave these things unsaid.


But you CAN leave them unsaid.
All you have to do is shut up about it.
It's not like you haven't been asked to leave it alone.
Even though you appear to be almost every type of expert, I'll still put my faith in an organization that's probably done this a few times, AND within the State of Louisiana.


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## Sabis mom

Magwart said:


> How do we figure out if it's crap? Let's assume I can't find her trainer (not certain yet, but go off the assumption). Tell me about the red flags you would look for in a dog who's training is unknown that might give away "crap" training -- that will help here!
> 
> David's right--she's not a nutter. I know how this shelter director does temp testing. We can assume she's done something like ASPCA's SAFER protocol (which is probably unfairly over-inclusive, if anything, in the dogs it identifies as potentially aggressive), and no signs of aggression came up. Assume everything so far points to a very stable temperament.
> 
> What would "crap" training do in a dog with a stable temperament, and how do you recognize it?


 By the sounds of it she's fine, although I can't see her so can't really say. Unless it was prolonged and bordering, or worse, on abusive a dog with a stable temperament would largely shrug off crap training. As others have said the training is based on obedience so if it was me I would pull her and then get the assessment done, once she's safe. 
I had patrol dogs/PPD dogs who made perfectly acceptable pets and played happily with children and other animals. My girl Sabi would have been in heaven in the middle of a daycare, our only issue was getting her to give the kids back, lol.
Pull her, get an assessment done and if push comes to shove we can network here and elsewhere to find her a skilled home. I will help where I can from here. I know we can get her transport if need be.


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## David Winners

If you can't understand that the contract has no legal bearing on the shelter, you shouldn't continue with this conversation. It's beyond your comprehension.


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## David Winners

I wish I could take her. I need a big kennels.


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## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> If you can't understand that the contract has no legal bearing on the shelter, you shouldn't continue with this conversation. It's beyond your comprehension.


You are unfortunately the one that does not understand basic basic contract law.

If you have a point to make.. Or a justified response. Make it.

Please don't engage in personal attacks.

Thank you.

The shelter could easily find justifiable legal grounds to make an exception and let this dog live.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Lykoz said:


> You are unfortunately the one that does not understand basic basic contract law..
> 
> It is beyond your comprehension.


I think I am going to take someone's advice and find the "Ignore" button.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> I wish I could take her. I need a big kennels.


David, I wish you could get her. I have the room, but I think I've posted about the VERY dog-aggressive girl I already have... And as a caregiver, I wouldn't have the time to manage Jade if I brought in another female.

The poor girl... Just discarded like old junk.

Susan


----------



## Magwart

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> I think I am going to take someone's advice and find the "Ignore" button.


Go to your User CP at the top of your screen, in the black bar. In the User CP screen, there's a link in the list on the left ("Edit Ignore List"). Click it. Then up pops a box where you can the "add member to your ignore list" by typing in their user name.

All, we are working on getting the shelter to send us a video of her interacting with people and dogs. If I can get it, I'll share it by PM with those of you who've offered to help.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Magwart said:


> Go to your User CP at the top of your screen, in the black bar. In the User CP screen, there's a link in the list on the left ("Edit Ignore List"). Click it. Then up pops a box where you can the "add member to your ignore list" by typing in their user name.


Thank you! I did, and it works!

Susan


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## Jax08

Magwart said:


> All, we are working on getting the shelter to send us a video of her interacting with people and dogs. If I can get it, I'll share it by PM with those of you who've offered to help.


Please add me to that list. Not sure what connections my breeder might have for her.


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## Sabis mom

Gee, that button works like a charm.

Magwort I would be very interested in that video. And like others I wish I could take her myself, poor love. No dog should be just tossed like trash, least of all one that has done her job. It makes me angry when seniors end up in shelters.


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## David Winners

They make such great dogs for new handlers. I wish everyone that was interested in sport could work a retired dog for a while. It's like easing into things. You learn so much from your first dog, and working at warp speed with a new pup is challenging.


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## lhczth

*Let's please stay on topic and leave out the personal nonsense.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## wolfstraum

Actually - I like the pedigree ALOT on this girl!!!! I am not in the position to take on anything as a foster....have a 11 year old female who is NOT female friendly....but given the history and the temperament evaluation you received, I really hope you can get this girl out and placed somewhere....I have found that older breeding females usually make great companions for family dogs and are usually grateful to be allowed to be couch potatoes!

lee


----------



## Magwart

We have a rescue hold on her, with a plan to pull her Sat. (Once they got a rescue commitment from us this afternoon, she became absolutely safe.) 

This dog has had at least three or four homes, that we know of (and it might be more). She's been sold and sold and sold. Sadly, this dog's probably never had a family that viewed her as anything other than something fungible. 

We found an IPO home that's a friend of a one of our board members, willing to foster temporarily for a couple of weeks, to help with the assessment. The home knows the lines this dog is from well, and has a dog from them, so that should be a nice help. This home should be able to assess what kind of training she might have had. The foster has offered a spare kennel. A kennel is apparently what this dog has always known, so it's okay for a transition, and much better than the alternative. It gives us a chance to learn a lot more about her, before she comes into a pet home.

After the two weeks there, she's going to come to my house, so we can continue the assessment, and work on transitioning to a pet home. At her age, discovering an orthopedic dog bed and warm spot next to a heater vent in the living room should be delightful. My home is calm, and my dogs are easy-going, so she can relax and let us get to know her. I'm going just treat her like I would any other foster, and focus on the dog in front of me, without presuming anything. She'll tell me what she needs just like every other foster has. If I can't give it to her, I can at least try to find someone who can.

DH and I will use it as learning opportunity. Once she's here, I'll likely lean on those of you who have already been PM'ing with me, asking for thoughts and advice as we get to know her. 

Thanks for all of you who offered thoughtful, instructive advice based on experience with PPD dogs. My gut reaction in rescue has been to be very wary of taking on dogslike this_. _We will see where this goes and what she teaches us.


----------



## GatorBytes

That's excellent news!


----------



## Debanneball

Mag, this is a wonderful thing you are doing! I wish you the very best of luck! Deb


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## Stevenzachsmom

Great news! Thank you so much for the update. Please keep us posted. Pictures would awesome. I seriously don't anticipate you having any problems with this girl.

Thank you!!!!!


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## David Winners

That's great news!


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## Sabis mom

You just made my night! Thank you so much.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Very happy for this girl! I think a somewhat known background is a great thing, and I am betting this will be a huge success.


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## Shade

Wonderful news!


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## martemchik

Nice to hear. Also with that many homes, I'd almost say that she hasn't had any real training. Hard to train a dog when its going through that many homes, and also...dogs that are good at what they do generally don't get sold or rehomed that often.

You probably know this, but I'd almost try not to look for signs that she's had training. Let her be a dog and see what she does. Don't look for problems that aren't there. It's pretty easy to blow something out of proportion when you're expecting a certain outcome.


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## Remo

May your kindness to this deserving dog be returned to you ten fold. Thank you so much for stepping up to help her!


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

Thank you so much, I am so happy for her! You are so kind, I am sure you won't have a problem with her. 

With that background I suspect her adjustment to a real home environment will probably be longer than usual, I doubt she's ever experienced what you are prepared to give her. I think it will be like carefully removing the layers of grime from an ancient painting to see how bright the original colors are...

Susan


----------



## Jax08

Magwart said:


> We have a rescue hold on her, with a plan to pull her Sat. (Once they got a rescue commitment from us this afternoon, she became absolutely safe.)
> 
> This dog has had at least three or four homes, that we know of (and it might be more). She's been sold and sold and sold. Sadly, this dog's probably never had a family that viewed her as anything other than something fungible.
> 
> We found an IPO home that's a friend of a one of our board members, willing to foster temporarily for a couple of weeks, to help with the assessment. The home knows the lines this dog is from well, and has a dog from them, so that should be a nice help. This home should be able to assess what kind of training she might have had. The foster has offered a spare kennel. A kennel is apparently what this dog has always known, so it's okay for a transition, and much better than the alternative. It gives us a chance to learn a lot more about her, before she comes into a pet home.
> 
> After the two weeks there, she's going to come to my house, so we can continue the assessment, and work on transitioning to a pet home. At her age, discovering an orthopedic dog bed and warm spot next to a heater vent in the living room should be delightful. My home is calm, and my dogs are easy-going, so she can relax and let us get to know her. I'm going just treat her like I would any other foster, and focus on the dog in front of me, without presuming anything. She'll tell me what she needs just like every other foster has. If I can't give it to her, I can at least try to find someone who can.
> 
> DH and I will use it as learning opportunity. Once she's here, I'll likely lean on those of you who have already been PM'ing with me, asking for thoughts and advice as we get to know her.
> 
> Thanks for all of you who offered thoughtful, instructive advice based on experience with PPD dogs. My gut reaction in rescue has been to be very wary of taking on dogslike this_. _We will see where this goes and what she teaches us.


You totally 100% ROCK! Please let me know what you need for her!


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## wolfstraum

So glad you are pulling her...I acquired an older female who was titled and 7 when I got her and she stayed her until she was past her 12th birthday...she had been a kennel dog and was so happy to be a house dog and have a comfy bed in the living room...I also acquired another titled import who had been overbred and the rescue coordinator fell in love with her and kept her until she passed at 14+....both these dogs were dog social and so very very happy and grateful to be house dogs...and both are still sorely missed....


Also so glad you found her breeder - and it is not the one who would not take her back unspayed....

Lee


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## Debanneball

Mag, any update on her evaluation? How is she doing, what is her name? Deb


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## Magwart

Yep, she's safe and in the foster home. She's quiet as a church mouse, she won't pee in her kennel (holds it, goes out to do business, goes right back in the kennel, like that's been her routine for years). The foster mom says she's just _sweet_ _--_ an easy, good dog. I'm honestly looking forward to letting her experience life as a house dog.

We don't yet know whether she had _any_ training (too soon), but signs are pointing to "no." The PPD label someone slapped on her online was likely not accurate.


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## Jax08

That's super news! Can't wait for the updates.


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## selzer

Glad she's safe.


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## Sabis mom

Magwart said:


> Yep, she's safe and in the foster home. She's quiet as a church mouse, she won't pee in her kennel (holds it, goes out to do business, goes right back in the kennel, like that's been her routine for years). The foster mom says she's just _sweet_ _--_ an easy, good dog. I'm honestly looking forward to letting her experience life as a house dog.
> 
> *We don't yet know whether she had any training (too soon), but signs are pointing to "no." The PPD label someone slapped on her online was likely not accurate.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> So glad she's safe. I sort of thought she was going to be an old sweetie. Be interesting to see what happens when she settles in. My bet is she will turn into super mooch, Velcro, nanny dog.
> 
> With regards to the training not much surprised. Shame someone would risk her life by labelling her as such.


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## wolfstraum

some sort of "title" helps sell puppies.....that is pretty common....

So glad she is ok - and will at least experience the happiness of a soft bed and living room instead of a concrete kennel run....my heart cries for these old abandoned dogs who made so much money for a person, and are heartlessly destroyed or abandoned...

Lee


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## Shade

That's great news!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Magwart Thank you for saving this girl.


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## osito23

Thank you for helping this girl! I hope she enjoys her new life as a house dog


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## Magwart

***UPDATE***










I've been a little quiet as I've been doing a lot of research on this dog, and her past....and taking care of her vet needs. More about that later. 

(I'm going to call the dog "K" here only because there's already been a good bit of drama over on Pedigree Database and FB involving others who know what happened to her. She has a distinctive call name. I'm not using it as I don't want that other stuff to spill over here, as the thread will get shut down if that starts. So let's all just call her "K.")

This post is about K -- and I want to tell you how awesome she is, and about all the good things happening for her.

Since several of you helped convince me to take a risk and pull her, despite my initial trepidation about the PPD label, I want to introduce you to the dog we pulled.

K's now at my house, and she's funny, charming, and oh-so-sweet. The only thing she seems to have ever been taught is to sit directly in front, facing her person, with big goofy grin. Seriously. That's it. We've tried "down" and "platz," "heel" and "fuss." My DH thinks she might have once had some leash work, as it's like she's trying to remember something she learned a LONG time ago. (I happen to think she's just super-smart, and super-biddable, so she's reading from him what he wants and trying to give it to him.) 

She wants to snuggle and be loved--those are the only things that matter to her. She's wonderfully eager to please and would do anything to get praise and affection. She's friendly to _everybody _she meets. She has a sense of humor, and she's gentle and funny. She is a dog who should have been someone's heart dog. 

I've been holding off on posting, as I wanted to be sure K was going to be okay first...as I was very worried I'd have to post a tragedy. When we took K for her vet appt for her spay, x-rays and blood work, we got some bad news. In addition to being HW positive, she was full of mammary tumors...and pyometra. 

What was going to be a simple spay turned into major abdominal surgery. The vet removed many tumors. K had to stay at the clinic for 5 days, recovering. Luckily, our rescue's vet is outstanding, and K got very good care. She's doing great now.

We finally got the lab report back -- all the tumor samples were benign!!! The xrays also showed that the HW isn't bad yet. 

Her hips and elbows looked fine, but there's arthritis in the spine, and some rear wobbling and muscle weakness from that. Once she was on pain meds for surgery recovery, she was stronger in the rear, so we know she needs some pain management and follow up for her spine. In the meantime, I'm starting her on good supplements while she mends. 

I knew from everyone who looked at the pedigree for me that there was someone out there who had put enormous work into producing a dog of this quality, so I had a feeling the original breeder would want to know about K's fate. It took a little work, but I'm glad I tracked the _real _original breeder of K down. K's original breeder is a person of integrity who had no idea a dog she had bred had landed in a kill shelter until she learned it from me. 

K's original breeder was devastated to learn what happened to the pup she had brought into the world. She immediately donated toward K's vet bills (which are substantial), and she's very grateful for K is in rescue. We've talked by phone several times times about K's prognosis, as she was deeply concerned. She has now put in an application to adopt K to be her personal dog. It turns out K is the daughter of her heart-dog, her competition dog who passed away a few years ago. Their faces look incredibly similar. K's goofy, silly personality mirrors her sire, and they have some similar behaviors.

It will be a while before K's ready to adopt, but life is looking up for her. She's on a dog bed next to me, making dainty snoring sounds. :wub:

On behalf of K, thanks a million to those of you who gave me such supportive advice -- esp. those of you who were so helpful by PM (you know who you are ).


----------



## Chip18

Guess I read this at just the right time!


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## BorderKelpie

What an amazing turn of events. You are awesome to have done so much for this little lady, Magwart! Thank you so much for all you have done. 

I love the wonderful happy ending to what could have been a tragic story.


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## Shade

That's wonderful, brought a tear to my eye and I hope she recovers quickly


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## Mikelia

Omg, you ROCK!
I'm so happy to hear such a happy ending to K's story! I can only imagine what the breeder is feeling. That's just so amazing. 
Thank you for being a part of rescue work. It is times like these, where you go out on the farthest limb and take a chance and have it end so well, that it makes it all worth it


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## Sabis mom

You made my day.

Please continue to keep us posted.


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## Jax08

You are phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. <3


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## selzer

Maybe she does have some training but being so ill, she has just been unable. I mean, my girls get much more cuddly when they are in heat or just not feeling well. Other dogs will go and find a corner somewhere and try to be by themselves. I think any eval would have to wait until she is recovered and given some time for the change in ownership.

For that matter, I hope she is returned to her breeder, who has tried to do the right thing -- donate with no strings attached, and still wants to take her even though she is not going to be a breeding dog for her. It doesn't sound like the type of individual who will only want her back so long as they can make a buck off of her. 

Well, anyway it is nice to know the gal is safe. I have a dog that was titled in schutzhund before I got her. So she has passed protection work, both in her title and at the show. She would make an awesome family pet. She is solid as a rock. Anyone can handle her -- vets. groomers, etc., and she is good with all ages -- very careful and sweet to little ones. 

As for me using German or English commands -- not so much. She can. She was definitely trained with a prong, and as I don't use them, I just figure I go back to step one with her on the basics, and she definitely learns them. It just seems like I have to teach them myself because my style is different I guess.


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## GatorBytes

_"K's now at my house, and she's funny, charming, and oh-so-sweet. The only thing she seems to have ever been taught is to sit directly in front, facing her person, with big goofy grin. 
She wants to snuggle and be loved--those are the only things that matter to her. She's wonderfully eager to please and would do anything to get praise and affection. She's friendly to everybody she meets. She has a sense of humor, and she's gentle and funny. She is a dog who should have been someone's heart dog. "
_
I just kept going, oh, oh, oh...with a big dopey grin on my face and tear (happy) in my eye.

I love happy stories.
So excited she has a potential home

You Rock!

And yes, that is one big happy grin in the pic


----------



## Magwart

I'm very happy (well, and a little sad) to report this is my last week having K share my home. She's scheduled to be adopted this weekend, by her original breeder, three states away. She will be her breeder's personal dog for whatever years are left in her life. This means she'll be in the home, enjoying being a pet.

On Friday, a good friend is driving 850 miles to deliver K to the woman who brought K into the world. I can't say enough good things about the ethics of the original breeder -- she wants to make K her personal dog to make it up to K for all the things that happened to this dog that shouldn't have. 

Of all the pups from that breeder's last litter, K seems to have replicated the most of her sire's personality. K's sweetness, desire to snuggle, her sense of humor...that's all her dad. K's sire was this breeder's heart dog, and he passed away a few years ago. After all our many conversations, I feels like I'm sending a part of him back to her. 

I'm going to miss K a lot. She tries so hard to do everything right and please. She's very intuitive about reading people and guessing what she's supposed to do. She's happy as can be lying next to me with her big, blocky head in my lap. :wub:

I still shake my head every time I think about this sweet goofball being labeled a personal protection dog. She knows sit and down, and most of her leash manners came from us since she hadn't been walked in who-knows-how-long, based on her lack of muscle. That's about all she knows. Her level of obedience is about on par with dogs coming out of an introductory Petco class. 

She's got one heck of a nose though. She probably missed her calling doing scent work, as she experiences the world through her nose, and keeps it close to the ground when she goes anywhere. Her adopter is going to lay some tracks this spring and let her experience nose work just for fun. I have a feeling K will _love_ doing that, as her mind is so sharp. She's going to have a very good life there.


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## Jax08

:wub: So happy for K and her breeder.


----------



## GatorBytes

Hopefully K's breeder/new adopter will join the forum to update us on her, or at least send you pic's so you can!

So happy for you K, and kudo's to you Magwort for everything you did for this lovely pooch.
You deserve big :hugs:'s


----------



## charger

Magwart. Thank god there are people like you in the world. 
:hug::toasting::hugs:


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## Stevenzachsmom

I love happy endings. Thank you for sharing and for everything you did for K.


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## Debanneball

I too love happy endings, but I cry a lot, but Mag, they are happy tears! Thank you for all you have done for this wonderful girl!


----------



## Smithie86

The breeder is an incredible person and would move heaven and earth to get a dog from her back. Just the way they are. 

I knew the sire and took a lot of pictures of him, when he was trialing. And he was the breeder's heart dog and is still talked about. "K" looks so much like him....

Kudos to the breeder for doing the right thing. So many people claim to be caring, but when their dogs are in a shelter, bad situation, etc. they turn the other cheek and refuse to do anything.


----------



## Magwart

Smithie, 86, thanks for saying this about this breeder. In our phone conversations, and watching videos of the Sire, we've discovered there's so much in K's personality that is just like him. It was a travesty that K wasn't deeply loved and cherished her whole life. 

She went back to the breeder yesterday. A volunteer drove her 850 miles to get her "home," this holiday weekend. The pictures of them together make me know it was the right thing.

So many of you deserve enormous thanks for your support through PMs encouraging me to pull this dog -- and ignore the (false) PPD label. Some of you here also helped enormously by looking at the pedigree for me privately and helping me figure out this was a special dog -- with someone who knew what they were doing behind the breeding. That knowledge is what caused me to realize the various people who were making noise at the shelter were not actually "the breeder"--there was someone else out there who needed to know what was going on. It took some effort to find the real breeder, since she's now retired from breeding, but it was _so _worth finding her.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

Magwart--This whole story is wonderful. I remember when you first posted about her, I kept thinking, "don't believe them, please don't give up on her!"

Wow. Not only did you not give up on her, you went to the ends of the earth for her! You rock! And I am so happy for her real breeder, what a gift, to get this girl back who is so much like her heart dog. I'm like Debanne, I get tears easily, but these are tears of happiness for you, for 'K' and for her breeder.

Susan


----------



## Jake and Elwood

Remo said:


> May your kindness to this deserving dog be returned to you ten fold. Thank you so much for stepping up to help her!


I'll second that!


----------



## VogelHaus

*Keeleigh*

Hi Everyone, I am happy to report that keeleigh, the foster dog that was with Maggie and Red Stick has made her final journey home from south to north. She is happily sucking the marrow out of bone with her brother, Capone. I am so very please to have my girl back and have a part of my Dante back here in her. She is very much like him and I am amazed at how well she just walked in the house and owned it like she lived here all her life. Many thanks to all the people for their help in saving her life, tracking me down and making the journey to return her to me. I just got home not too long ago but photos of her and videos coming soon. She'll forever be an active pet with lots of fun and Randy Rhodes playing around on his trails and running with Capone. Updates to follow...

Thanks
Karmen, Capone, Keeleigh, Sabre (the mother) and Eli (her full littermate)


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Great outcome, so happy it worked out!


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

VogelHaus said:


> Hi Everyone, I am happy to report that keeleigh, the foster dog that was with Maggie and Red Stick has made her final journey home from south to north. She is happily sucking the marrow out of bone with her brother, Capone. I am so very please to have my girl back and have a part of my Dante back here in her. She is very much like him and I am amazed at how well she just walked in the house and owned it like she lived here all her life. Many thanks to all the people for their help in saving her life, tracking me down and making the journey to return her to me. I just got home not too long ago but photos of her and videos coming soon. She'll forever be an active pet with lots of fun and Randy Rhodes playing around on his trails and running with Capone. Updates to follow...
> 
> Thanks
> Karmen, Capone, Keeleigh, Sabre (the mother) and Eli (her full littermate)


We will be so glad to get updates--and I am so happy for you AND Keeleigh! :happyboogie:

Susan


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## Debanneball

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> We will be so glad to get updates--and I am so happy for you AND Keeleigh! :happyboogie:
> 
> Susan


Ditto, and I also look forward to photos and updates! Enjoy


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