# Very urgent - help needed



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Is the bitch in heat???


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## usxmarine03 (Feb 12, 2017)

Ricardo Moutinho said:


> Im affraid, yes. They lick her out, and smell, but none tryes to hump her...could be because shes small...


That’s the problem and I’ve never seen dogs become friendly towards each other again once a female in heat has been around. I’ve seen two brothers who grew up together try to kill each other constantly after a female went into heat in their presence.


----------



## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Chaining these dogs will probably increase their aggression level. You need to purchase appropriate kennels and place them so that the two male dogs cannot see each other. You will not be able to allow them to be loose together. You have entered the wonderful world of crate/kennel and rotate. Chaining the males is just not an appropriate solution.

The female needs to be kept out of sight of both of the males until she is no longer in heat.

It *may* help to have the female spayed. But even with that, you should never trust these two males unsupervised, even if they seem to go back to getting along like champs.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

No. You won't have that picture again.

I will go a step further. Spay the female ASAP. Rehome one of the boys. It takes consistent management to safely crate and rotate fighting dogs. Not all are able to do that. You risk a blood bath or worse.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Can you board the female and take charge of the boys and see how things unfold in a few weeks? If they do, just keep the two males, spay the female(to avoid her ending up in a puppy mill) and rehome her. But never leave them unsupervised together. If things do not improve between the males after these weeks, find a home for one of the males you enjoy the least and get your female back.
I am sorry about your situation. It is tough when they don't get along.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

An animal psychic? The other male looks like pitbull type in the woodpile. Get rid of the other dogs- keep Kaiser. Problem solved.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think “get rid of” was an unfortunate choice of words. I know this is emotional. It seems like the addition of your female triggered the fighting. Is it possible to have her stay with someone else for awhile, and see how your boys behave when it’s back to just the two of them?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Get the female spayed and in the meantime keep her away from the other dogs. First because she is small enough to be inadvertently crushed and second (I can't believe you didn't consider this) if either tries to breed her they will kill her! And they will try.
Your boys are not likely to ever get along and unless you are committed to control you could be begging a problem. 
Control means separation, obedience and diligence. All day, every day. 
Personally, I don't know what you were thinking. You had one good dog, you risked a second and it was working well so you thought you should throw an unspayed female into the mix? Really? Come on "dude" this isn't family it's a disaster. And really were you hoping for puppies or what? Stop being ridiculous and consider the position you have put your dogs in. 

Take a good look at your dogs and tell me if they are happy right now. You don't need a doggy psychic to figure it out, you just need eyes.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ricardo, honestly, if I said what I think of this situation, my post would likely get deleted. Did you give ANY thought to what the consequences would be of adopting two intact males? Did you do any research, ask anyone?

Then adding an unspayed female to the mix...seriously??? :rolleyes2:

As far as keeping the dogs separated, I tried that with a seriously dog aggressive female. It did not end well. She killed another dog, and I had to have her euthanized. 

Just warning you that it's not as easy as you might think. :crying:


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Ricardo Moutinho said:


> I have cats, chickens, rabbits, a snake, etc..
> 
> And all because a mistake i made.... Imagine how i feel now...


** Rude personal attack. Please think before you post or you will get a warning or a time out. ADMIN**

Yes, you made a mistake but so did we all before we got smarter. We learn and do better. So you own your mistake and now you need to solve this chaos.
Replace "getting rid" with "finding a good and safe home for x, y or z". If Frankie is such a great dog, why was he in the shelter for 2 years? The way you describe him, he should be able to find a good place.

In the past I had a similar situation: I had two intact male Whippets (different caliber than GSDs of course) who lived happily together. One day I took a client's dog in who happened to go into heat shortly after. The one male attacked the other, sending him to the vet to get stitched up. I immediately had the female foster dog spayed, while in heat. That turned everything back to normal and the males never fought again. But 1. they were Whippets and 2. they were opposites on the hierarchy spectrum.
Please keep us posted on how you are going about this. We all have the best intentions. Most are pretty direct but honest and caring.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Get the bitch spayed, and the dogs neutered. 

Get a trainer, and do a two week shut down -- start over from scratch. 

With bitches, I'd say it was a losing battle, but with dogs, you just might be able to make it work if the boys are both neutered, and the bitch is spayed, and you change your leadership style. 

Everything you thought you knew about dogs might have to go out the window. If you want THESE dogs together again, then you might have to START with crating or kenneling them and slowly, once all the hormones have settled down, and your individual training and leadership has increased, you can slowly bring them together again. 

Not going to be easy. Not going to be cheap. if they make each other bleed again, then you have to go back to square one and wait even longer to try again. One of the biggest mistakes people make is that after a fight, when the hormones are still strong, they start introducing the dogs again. This spurs another fight, or in the least increases the knowledge that the other dog is there and ready to do serious damage and the owner isn't going to be able to protect us. 

Yes it would be easiest to rehome the brindle dog. Not because it is not a GSD, but because it is the more recently acquired male. Keeping the dog we've had longer is generally the accepted practice. It discourages the flipping of dogs so many Americans are guilty of -- get tired of this one, dump it, get a different one. Either one -- that would be easiest. The male and female will get along together. 

But yes, putting an intact bitch into a group of two young males, and what did you expect. If you have a stadium full of men, and introduce 1 woman into the crowd, dynamics change. It is the same with intact dogs. Once she goes into heat, the other dog becomes a rival. You know this. It's not rocket science. 

Sometimes we see other folks have a slew of dogs and think oh wow that's what I want. But really, the ideal number of dogs is 2. Generally one male, one female, but occasionally 2 males are fine. 3 will often leave two beating on the other. 2 dogs, generally does not require superior leadership skills. 2 dogs usually can live harmoniously in the house, with the run of the house, neutered or intact. 

But once you bring in a bitch, that changes. Neutering might help. Neutering along with training and leadership, that might do the trick. I am not all that hopeful. Most folks talk a lot, but are unwilling to do what needs to be done to save their dogs. What you need to do is an honest personal inventory. And if you cannot commit to the individual training and leadership these dogs need before you try to let them be together again, then please re-home one.

ETA: Yes, I currently have all those dogs down below. 13 are bitches of which one is spayed, the two dogs, one is intact the other is neutered (not my doing). 10 are kenneled in pairs, four of which can go in and out of my house in their kennel areas. the other 5 bitches are kenneled individually. The 10, which include the neutered boy and the intact boy, two mother/daughter pairs, and an old bitch and a young middle of the road confident bitch, can be moved around and kenneled with other dogs in the group. But I keep it to two at a time.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Looks like you have a good plan. Of course it will be three steps forward, two back. Most plans go that way. Please let us know how it progresses. That is how we learn from each other.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I have two males that I keep seperate. It is somewhat annoying but now that it's part of our routine it's not that bad. Our circumstances may be somewhat different than yours because I don't have a female, and I'm not worried that my males would seriously harm or kill the other. I keep one dog upstairs and one dog downstairs or in the fenced yard and then I rotate every couple of hours. It's not what I envisioned, but I knew it was a possibility when I got two GSDs of the same sex. No big deal. No one gets hurt. Problem solved.

Definitely hire a trainer if you can. Find someone with GSD or working dog experience, not just any trainer you find in the yellow pages.

But if your males are in danger of seriously harming each other, and you can't keep them seperate, you may have to make some hard decisions and consider what is truly best for the dogs. Better for one dog to go to a great new home than to risk one or both being maimed, battered, bullied, or killed. I hope you find a solution. I know how disappointing and stressful it can be when the family doesn't get along. Keep us updated.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ricardo, wishing you the best of luck with trying to sort this out!

And you might want to research how to break up a dog fight, just in case...Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt I've been in this situation more times than I care to remember, and there's been a few times when one of the attacking dogs has refused to let go, making me wish I had a break stick handy.

Nothing quite like it for getting the adrenaline going! :rolleyes2:

Here's another article by Leerburg that's relevant to your situation: http://leerburg.com/pdf/introducingdogs.pdf


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Once they all come back from their "vacation" keep them apart for a few days until they are all coherent and the hormones have settled. Then start introducing them one by one in every combination with you in charge, as if they had never met.Have some hold one dog and you the other on leash. Go for a walk and out of each other's sight. Do not allow Kaiser to play 'leader' and turn him into a bully. That leader is you. The slightest 'look' and he is on a down stay, same with the others. You don't get a second chance if this goes awry now. I admire your commitment.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's more info on what a break stick is, and how to use it. They are most often needed with the bully breeds, but believe me, I've known a couple of GSDs that wouldn't release their grip, either! One of my friends said it took fifteen veeerrry loooong minutes to get one of her dogs to release another. Fortunately, neither dog suffered serious damage! 

Need I say that doing this is extremely dangerous, and the chances of getting bitten are very high. But a dog fight, or a dog attacking a human can result in loss of life and limb, so sometimes extreme measures are needed.


HOW TO USE A BREAK STICK

DO NOT try to pull the dogs apart as this will cause tearing and a lot of damage.

How to Break Up a Fight
If one of the dogs has a grip, it’s time to use a break stick.


It is easier if there are two people to break up a fight, but you can do it by yourself if you have no choice. If both dogs are fighting and you are alone, you might need to tie one of the dogs to something solid. When one of the dogs is tied up, you must "break" the one that is not tied first, and pull him/her off right away.

1- Remain calm - I know, this can be nearly impossible, but screaming doesn't help.

2- Walk over to the dogs, straddle one that has a hold, and then lock your legs around the dog's hips just in front of the hindquarters. Make sure your legs are locked securely around the dog. Your break stick will be in one hand, so with your free hand, grab your dog firmly by his collar and pull upward slightly. (This is a good reason to always keep collars on your dogs)


3- Insert your breaking stick behind the molars where the gap is found. Sometimes you need to work the stick in just a bit if the gap is small. The stick should be inserted from ½ to 1½ inches into the dog's mouth.


4- Turn the stick as if you're twisting the throttle of a motorcycle. This action will cause the dog to readjust its grip, and it will bite onto the stick, releasing the other dog. If both dogs have a hold, you will then have to break the second dog from the first.

Edit: PLEASE read the Leerburg article on introducing dogs to each other!! There is some EXCELLENT information that will be very helpful!! 

Here's the link again: http://leerburg.com/pdf/introducingdogs.pdf


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Here is what I did. I have two intact males- a 4 year old, and a 10 year old husky.

My young female started going into her first heat and before she was showing any signs, there was a sudden fight between my males, while we were out playing in the river. It was serious fight, they were not fighting just for dominance. Super, duper, scary. Honestly, these boys were NOT joking around, and my 95 lb younger dog, was going to end the fight, although he was not the one who started it.

Happily, through a mixture of pure adrenaline fueled terror and the fact that my younger dog listens to me and does not redirect, I broke it up. 

What I did after:

Separated the boys for about a month. During the heat cycle, I had non-see through barriers between the boys. Usually two barriers- a baby gate and another gate or a door and a baby gate. My dogs have been taught not to test barriers but I took no chances. 

Taught the boys a "stop" word. "HEY!" means that if the dog does not stop posturing/growling/staring down (whatever precludes a fight) there will be a very harsh consequence. I used e-collar, verbal, and physical corrections. All with markers and made it very clear for the dogs. 

After the female's heat cycle, I started slow reintroductions. Starting with leash walks, where one dog was leashed just in case, to avoid issues. I carried treats, and marked and rewarded any calm or positive interaction. Corrected harshly any sort of negative behavior. 

Lots of group runs, with high control and careful monitoring of potential high-tension situations like loading/unloading the car, heading out the gate, etc. 

Gated off the two boys for another month or so in the house unless I was right there monitoring. Always had treats on hand and basically treated in the house whenever a dog looked at the other, was near the other. Practiced group obedience (down, heel) with the two boys. Lots of rewards and treats. At that point didn't need to correct much. 

Once I saw only relaxed body language, I let the boys have free access to house and only monitor or separate during very high excitement times. Still maintain that "HEY" marker, just in case. Also, I monitor closely my female for signs of impending heat, and then separate sooner rather than later to be safe. 

After this one fight, there was a slight change in roles, but I don't allow alpha bullying or that type of behavior. 

One major thing in my favor is the husky is much older and a different, mellower type than my younger dog, and they have known each other the younger dog's entire life (literally). Also, they have a very strong relationship with me and want my favor. I maintain status as the "alpha bitch" in my house. 

If you are careful, and know how to read dogs, and immediately correct aggression while rewarding calm behavior, you should be able to return to normal, unless your dogs are truly, and seriously dog aggressive. That would be a scenario for an expert or a case for rehoming one male.

Fighting males are no joke, people say males fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights, but that is absolutely not what I experienced. Sometimes breathing rights and breeding rights is the same thing. It was all about the hormones. 

The following two heat cycles, my males never had a problem getting back to normal after separation. I always take it easy and watch carefully, but they don't have tension. Be very careful- do not let the boys practice bad behaviors, like fighting and growling, and be ready to correct the dogs in a way that matters for unwanted aggression.

Bring in an expert if you need to- that means someone who actually knows their stuff. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

I do own 2 big dogs...but i dont allow bitting, and aggression towards anything or anyone.

Franky weights around 39 kgs, and Kaiser 37 kgs.

BOTH dogs are non aggressive animals, and you all know how GSDs go running to meet other dogs, and like to be dominant. Franky allows Kaiser to be like that. 

Franky was very submissive since day 1.

Now...just to clarify a user...Franky is a Mastiff mix. Very loyal, very territorial, but very kind too. He's not a "pitbull on a wood mill".

Fortunelly, i have people supporting us, S.P.A 8 Vidas Teruel + my vet...and we will manage to overcome this issue.

No dogs are bad dogs...and luckly i dont need them to seem big and tought to show off....they play, they lick, they are kind...

Ofcourse...i need to click the "reset" button, but it will be worth it...i rather prefer start everything again than "get rid of the dog".

One last comment in this post, i would like to drop here...ALL DOGS ARE WORTH IT...i know this is a GSD forum...but treat GSDs like kings and all others dogs like ****...its disgusting.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ricardo Moutinho said:


> I do own 2 big dogs...but i dont allow bitting, and aggression towards anything or anyone.
> 
> Franky weights around 39 kgs, and Kaiser 37 kgs.
> 
> ...


I think you are getting the wrong impression. You had the GSD first and for many of us the rule is last in, first out if there are issues with compatibility. My comments had nothing to do with anything breed related.

And if you think there are no bad dogs you are sadly mistaken. As someone who was heavily involved in rescue I can promise you that sometimes dogs are just not right and we need to make tough decisions.

I have had as many as 21 dogs of all breeds, sizes, genders and age in my house along with various other critters and creatures BUT in order to accomplish this I had to take a hard, no nonsense approach to having them. That is 24/7 never let your guard down and I am the boss no one else better put a toe out of line. You need to know your dogs and be able to read them in a split second because that stare from across the room is going to erupt into an all out brawl in half a second. The sad reality is that even with the best of intentions most people let their guard down after a few days or weeks of good behavior and then we get to read about how one dog killed the other. 

The good news is that you have two boys not two girls, I wish you the best but I hope you understand that this isn't a "fix" it's a learn to manage and retrain the dogs thing. What you had is gone.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Trust me, NO ONE here meant/said/implied that GSDs are superior to other dogs and that only GSDs deserve a chance. Many, many of us have more than one breed of dog. Some of us (like myself) don't even have a GSD at the moment. Lots of us have mutts. Lots of us have rescues. All animals deserve a chance, but I agree with Sabis Mom, there is such a thing as a dog that just isn't right in the head. Nothing you do will change that. No matter how they were raised, they can still be aggressive and kill or maul another animal or human.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I did not actually mean get rid of the other dogs of course I meant rehome the other dogs. We do not just go out and drop them off in the street. I commend you for keeping Kaiser an intact animal. I have two stallions that live together and there is something just so right and perfect about they way God made them. I can do this because in nature stallions that have not won a herd of mares live in bachelor herds. Of course in fights over mares there is real violence. Good luck. And I am a woman by the way.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

Ok, back to the issue itself.

A doubt of mine...lets suppose i bring the bitch to my dad again, and keep both males. 

After the "storm" passes, and Franky will be nutered for a month, slowly bring him home, etc...etc...

Kaiser could reject HIM or all dogs in general in the house/yard? Im asking because i am really not sure if it can be just towards Franky (because he knows him) or all dogs in general...


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ricardo Moutinho said:


> Ok, back to the issue itself.
> 
> A doubt of mine...lets suppose i bring the bitch to my dad again, and keep both males.
> 
> ...


It could be that he has matured to the point where he will be intolerant of trespass, shepherds are know for not being overly dog friendly. This incident may have just brought it to a head. We have been trying to warn you that these two dogs may never be ok together again.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are some things you are not getting and I am a little leery of your vet. I thought the brindle dog was mastiff or a mastiff mix. It's a LOT of dog. I did suggest rehoming the brindle dog but was clear that it was because you had him less time than the other dog. 

This is what you don't get: two's company, three is a pack. Keeping a pack of dogs is different. These aren't peekapoos. These are formidable dogs that can kill each other. They can do damage to you and your family as well when they are fighting. Witnessing dogs fighting is traumatic for adult owners, it is doubly so for children. Not sure if that is an issue or not for you. 

Being a pack-leader (not Cesar Milan's BS), means raising your understanding ten-fold, maybe more. You have to understand dog-language and be able to head off issues before they sprout. That one picture is cute with the dog's head on the other dog -- that could be a display of I'm the boss. Could be. You got to get really good at reading that stuff. 

The vet thing, leaving the GSD intact, well, I know what he's thinking. Dog's fight when the power/status is close. When one is clearly dominant and the other submissive, usually you don't have as much problems. When one is a mature adult when the new pup comes in, might never have a problem. Won't if the pup is of a middle of the road to submissive nature, while the mature dog is naturally dominant. Your alpha dog rarely fights. He doesn't have to. He uses his eyes, and that is all he needs. His natural gait and tail set may indicate who he is. But a dog that is constantly tail up and looking to dominate his fellows is a BETA dog. Not an alpha. There is a distinction. Betas fight because they are not alphas. They are wanna-be alphas, not natural alphas. 

It is like us, some of us are natural leaders when it comes to dogs. We walk around like our poop doesn't stink and dogs flock to our confidence and what do you call it, when you are not paying attention to lesser beings? Dogs understand it. Sit back and watch dogs when folks come up. When the kid that is infatuated by the dog, runs toward the dog, pets the dogs, etc, most dogs would crawl up a tree to get away from that kid if they could. When a child that walks through and does not seem to notice the dogs, the dogs are relaxed, and if she comes to talk to you, the dogs continue to be relaxed and may come to her. She probably could care less about dogs. 

The thing is, setting up your BETA dog as the overall leader by removing the testosterone from the other dog, and removing heat cycles may work, sufficiently enough. It could also create other problems in the leadership with both the males. I wouldn't do this. You could be creating a dog that is full of himself. And the other dog will not reach his potential because he will always be bullied, pressed, by the other dog. In this model, you back your stronger dog to keep the peace. Your dogs, it is up to you. 

You can keep a pack of dogs, but they become less pet-like. And you have to be a constant leader. The whole point of having pets can be lost in this sort of situation. A leader does not fight, does not raise his voice, does not bully those under him, does not rule by force. It is true for dogs. A leader respects the animal for whom the animal is. The leader out-wits the dogs. The leader uses non-confrontational means to get behavior he wants and to prevent issues before they happen. A leader is calm all the time. Dogs do not want to follow crazy leaders. If we try to lead these dogs by force, they may challenge you. Most are pretty smart and don't, but those that do, it can be very ugly. 

We stand erect and we have the human brain, and we can generally become the leader the dogs will follow. Lots is training -- patience, consistency, not repeating commands, following through every time, and so forth. 

Yes it can be done. Is it what you want. Because SabisMom, is right. What you had is gone. It isn't coming back. Not the way it was. And, if you think it is there, and let your guard down, well, that can be one of those things you can't take back.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

Well, first of all, i apologize if i offended anyone, trully it wasnt my intention.

Second of all, losing my family, the walks, the river fun, the sleep in the bed all together...it was a dream...and thinking of not having it again, was and is messing my head. I think i put my feelings over my brain...

Franky is at the vet right now. Bitch is the next.

I may lose what i had...but at least i tried.

Now...about Kaiser...my girl shares the opinion he should be nuteted too. 

What do you think? Yes or no?


----------



## Rubyjane77 (May 27, 2018)

My sister has a beagle (male), dachshund (male) and both got along. Her friend gave her a mixed breed Bitch and she went in heat. Luckily only the dachshund was interested the beagle completely ignored the bitch (even kicked her away from him) but her beagle seemed to carry a very strong dislike for the bitch. So she had to choose between her beagle and the mixed breed female. She chose the beagle 

So worse case and they don’t get along, you might have to choose only one of the male dogs who were fighting. 

If You plan to breed kaiser or enter him in shows then keep him intact. But I don’t like the idea of neutering a dog with sweet temperament as it may change them. 

Here is a link about the pros and cons. Personally I love my dog too much to risk the cons. Especially if my dog is young, healthy and well behaved. 

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/articles/neutering-male-dog.html


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I have no advice to offer. I hope things work out for you, that you are able to keep your boys. And yes, nobody can say that you didn't try. At the end of the day, you have to do what is best for your dogs and your family. Please keep us posted.

Best of luck to you!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know. 

My gut feeling is to neuter both males. But neutering them alone will not stop problems that already started. You need to increase training and leadership. 

If your boy was a true alpha and the mastiff was an omega or even middle of the road dog, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. There would have been no fighting. The Mastiff would have deferred to the shepherd, and that would be that. I don't think there really are that many true-alpha dogs out there. I had an alpha bitch. One. In 20 or 25. All the rest were betas, middle of the road bitches, or omega. And, you have to watch closely to see the difference between a middle of the road bitch and an alpha bitch. It's definitely there, if you are looking, not hard to see. You watch her, and the others. Ah well. 

Once there has been trouble between dogs, they say neutering will not work. I am not 100% sure. Reducing the amount of testosterone might make a difference. There is another thing though. Lots of times neutered dogs are worse about fighting that intact dogs. Dogs at dog parks, neutered dogs are often trouble makers or ganged up on. The key I think it to do the training following the neutering.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ricardo Moutinho said:


> Well, first of all, i apologize if i offended anyone, trully it wasnt my intention.
> 
> Second of all, losing my family, the walks, the river fun, the sleep in the bed all together...it was a dream...and thinking of not having it again, was and is messing my head. I think i put my feelings over my brain...
> 
> ...


Absolutely, I'd spay/neuter all 3 dogs. Then a cooling off period. Then structured reintroduction where you are in charge. 

Best case scenario maybe start leash walking the 3 of them altogether regularly before considering trying to have them live together. When all 3 recovered from surgery, begin structured leash walks together, no contact between the males until they are bored to death, noses on the ground, relaxed body, relaxed as they near each other.

The shepherd is not in charge. No dog has rank over another dog, as dictated by you. Zero aggression tolerated, all dogs defer to you. And I'd never ever leave them alone together ever again in their lives. If they could be crated/kenneled when unsupervised and live peacefully together with you there as the leader, that would be a big victory. And no feeding within sight of each other. Reduce all areas for possible conflict. I'd probably put them up overnight too, or rotate--if both slept in bed prior, you could do one or the other in bed at night so you have a dog to sleep with and they get the companionship but not together.

That's what I would do


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'd say be hopeful but realistic. I wouldn't rehome one of the males without first neutering both and trying a very structured reintroduction after some time. 

Maybe they are done and one does have to be rehomed, and you should be prepared that that could happen. But I'd at least try. Hopefully you or someone who can help you has the experience to see bad tension before the dogs have access to each other so no one gets hurt.

What was the extent of injuries from the one fight? You said blood but does that mean a scrape or a laceration requiring stitches or what?

What body part was injured and how bad?


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

If you have ANY doubt about their ability to get along when being reintroduced: MUZZLE THEM!!

I failed to do this when introducing a new female to my male GSD, and will forever regret it. She fastened onto his hind leg, and would not let go. The person holding him was badly bitten when he freaked out with the pain.

Some quotes from the Leerburg article, which I think is very important, and which everyone is ignoring:


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Please go to the article, and read the steps he uses for introducing a new dog to the pack. YOU NEED TO FOLLOW THESE STEPS!! If you try to go too quickly, it could very well end in disaster for you and the dogs.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Sunsilver this is a great article. And the point about a dog being dog aggressive for life is valid.

Shadow will never get along with other dogs, so I live with this reality and I hope the OP is prepared for this. When I kept multiple dogs in my house I tolerated NOTHING! I am the leader period. No muscling, pushing, taunting, etc. We never had toys out and feeding times were supervised. No poking at other dogs dishes was allowed, ever. Like Selzer, I was aware of who was fine with who and except under supervision those were the groups or pairs that stayed together. 
A Mastiff cross and a GSD are not a pair I would be taking any chances with, ever. If they really get into it the damage and fallout could be disastrous. For these dogs to safely live together means constant diligence and strict adherence to rules, for life. And because it was brought up this includes bedtime. Some pretty ugly fights have erupted in the middle of the night between dogs I had previously not had issues with. Believe me when I tell you it is not a good way to wake up and your sleep muddled brain means you will get bitten in the chaos.


----------



## rjstrotz (Jan 16, 2014)

*Kaiser, Franky & Female Dog*

Sounds like the male dogs are competing with each other now that you introduced the female dog. Get the males neutered and the female
spayed. When they are recovering from surgery with the cones on their heads, keep them separate. When the cones are off, re-introduce them to each other one at a time: it will take time, but well worth it.
I have three adult GSDs, one female and two males, all rescued and all adults. Isabella is the female and Johann and Gustav are the males.
They are all "fixed" and have totally integrated with each other and have total respect for each other. What a beautiful family of German Shepherds. Gustav is the latest addition to the GSD family, 2 years old and 118 pounds of solid muscle and bone.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

You know, dog are not really 'family or friends'. They are dependents.


----------



## Kada's Mom (Apr 6, 2012)

They all need to be neutered or spayed. Your female may be going into heat. Of course, male dogs are gong to fight over her! They've reached sexual maturity, and they won't get along until you get rid of those raging hormones. Besides, the last thing you or anyone needs is puppies. Millions of puppies and kittens are euthanized every year because there's TOO MANY.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You got a lot of conflicting advice. I always say don’t make any major medical changes, drugs, neutering, until you have worked with a private trainer who understands your breeds and your dogs in your home. Rushing into a spay or neuter adds recovery to the mix and could make their behaviors worse. So now you have to deal with that, too, as well as the loss of hormones. I’m quite surprised at how many people here suggested that you should rush into speutering. Unless you are a very competent behaviorist, please get a good trainer for one or two sessions. You need someone with hands on experience with both breeds. The less assertive male could still have been giving off signs and behaviors you didn’t even recognize. You said there were subtle behaviors. Now you know that much, try to pay attention so you can act before it escalates. Dogs that are never allowed to fight will never fight. Remove the opportunity. Stop it before it starts.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Due to another poster who's having problems with her dog being aggressive, I started re-reading Brenda Aloff's most excellent book on Aggression in Dogs, and came across the following:



> Statistically, castration has decreased aggression in 62% of cases where male dogs have been displaying aggressive tendencies toward other dogs, particularly other male dogs (Overall, 1997).
> 
> Aloff, Brenda. Aggression In Dogs - Practical Management, Prevention & Behaviour Modification (Kindle Locations 749-750). Dogwise. Kindle Edition.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Spanish Alano, I never heard of it. Something like this?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Due to another poster who's having problems with her dog being aggressive, I started re-reading Brenda Aloff's most excellent book on Aggression in Dogs, and came across the following:


https://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs



> “But the confounding issue here is that testosterone may also act as a confidence boost, and in some cases its absence after castration may mean a dog becomes more brittle emotionally, and more likely to react aggressively when feeling under threat”
> 
> Testosterone is often not the whole story
> 
> It is also important to note that while testosterone can influence some types of unwanted behaviour, there are normally other factors at play, such as a dog’s environment, prior learning, masculinisation of the brain before birth and during puberty, and the individual emotional and behavioural tendencies of the dog. As a result, even if an unwanted behaviour is influenced by testosterone, castration may not be the easy fix many hope that it will be. For this reason it is critical that the whole picture is taken in to account by a qualified behaviourist, and a behaviour modification programme developed that addresses all the factors contributing to unwanted behaviour.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Ricardo Moutinho I believe you have been mislead by your own dogs and a lack of information. Your Franky, like most Molossers, presents as "very chill", laid back and tolerant. Understand that when you are the biggest dog on the block you don't need to do anything else. BUT all of these dogs were created as war dogs and big game hunters. They possess intense crushing power in their jaws and no amount of pain will deter them from following through. They will never back down from a challenge. These dogs as a group epitomize "don't mistake my kindness for weakness". Your GSD has thrown down the gauntlet. Franky WILL pick it up, and he will do it with a wagging tail and a calm grin. DO NOT let your guard down.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

Hails people,

My latest post was 06-28-2018...and my new post, today, is about F)(&%*çING SUCCESS...

I have my boys together, trust them, and they love each other...MY FAMILY IS BACK!!!

It took a "chiet" load of work, time, effort, and heart broken...but i managed it...

1) Franky...Nuttered, 3 months out of house
2) Bé...nuttered
3) Kaiser...not nuttered, stay at home all time

As i said in my latest post, Kaiser seemed sad, looking everywhere for Franky...and in these 3 months i noticed it every day...

Franky was 3 months out...for a shelter dog...you should see the happiness of this dog when he saw us...when he got to his home again...

As i approched the gate with Franky, Kaiser was seeing, waiting, smelling....and in a snap of a sec...he knew was Franky...

For 2 weeks, we kept them in the house/garden...CONTROLLED ALL THE TIME by us, separated...one in/one out... for 2 weeks...

1 month later...im writting this post, they are playing outside, unguarded, not a single growling

We were all together at the river, street, field, running, jumping, playing...not even an issue ocurred...

I can't understand what's up...90% of the people told me "No, they will never accept each other again..."....and what i see its 100% the opposite, they cant stand be apart...Franky searchs for Kaiser, Kaiser for Franky, all day...

They do everything together, they even sleep together in the SAME PLACE, SAME BED...

Kaiser drinks water, Franky licks it from his mouth...they lick each other, they even eat together...

Thx for everyone who posted to help us out...and a message to whom could have the same issue as i had...It's possible to have them all living in harmony, just believe and raised them good, not as war dogs...

I dont have words to describe how happy i am with my 3 dogs together again as in the past....


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Congratulations my friend! Good for you for sticking with your dogs and not admitting defeat!

Hopefully through all of this ordeal you've learned to read your dog's signs so you can intervene when or if needed before there's a problem...

That said, congratulations on your success!


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

I am far from an expert and hope things continue to go smoothly. Stay vigilant and be prepared. I would pay close attention to Sabiesmom posts as genetics are hard, f not impossible to overcome.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I hope it all works out and am so happy to hear of success. Hormones, sometimes, do play an oversized role. I am glad it worked out for you.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

Thx people, i do appreciate your inputs...

Ofcourse it can happen a fight, im expecting it, but not full aggression...

What i see, and i swear im not over reacting, is....Kaiser cant stand be apart from Franky, neither does Franky...

Good examples of this are giving every minute here....

1) Franky is sleeping on the floor...Kaiser will go to him and lay beside him touching him, smelling him...
2) Kaiser is playing on the grass, lay down...franky will lay beside him, tommy up...
3) When playing both lay down, tommy up and light growling to each others...touching teeths...
4) When alert...both stand as a rock, both growl, run, jump to the gate together...one doenst go alone, Franky "calls" kaiser by looking at him, waiting Kaiser to invest against something....

Im am now at my office, both males were outside...KAISER camed to chill on the couch...guess what? Franky is on the couch too...

Well...i guess this was a major lesson and i am a very lucky guy on this matter....


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

...


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

So are your male dogs still intact? And you neutered the female?

Glad to hear you were able to work things out!


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> So are your male dogs still intact? And you neutered the female?
> 
> Glad to hear you were able to work things out!


Having just read the entire thread, he neutered one male and spayed the female, left one male intact. I admire the OP’s efforts to do everything he could to make this successful.


----------



## Ricardo Moutinho (Aug 20, 2016)

Thank you guys

In fact, the GSD is intact, the female and Spanish Alano were neutered.

This was my fight :

1) After the incident, we took the Spanish Alano to the vet, and after neutered he was out of the house for 1 month (testoterone must be minimum).
2 ) We neutered the female (she was always with us) 
3) For 1 whole month, Kaiser and Bé were at home, Franky was out with a friend.
4) We got back Franky and went to several walks on leash with all 3. We never let them come close to each other (Kaiser and Franky)

For 3 months, this was our life :

1) We were at home, both dogs on a leash, inside home, diferent corners.
2) No playing, no growling, no looking allowed. 
3) For 3 months we slept in seperated rooms, doors closed. No dogs allowed to be together.
4) Everyday we allow something diferent...sniffing, roaming a bit, etc...etc...
5) When we go to work....1 dog + female inside home, the other outside in the garden. When we get home, the dog in the garden comes in, the other dog out. The female was always with one or another
6) Lots of neutral places walks (very important)...
7) Slowly we let them come together....and bum...done....One day we decided it was time to take out the leashs on a walk...if they fight, they fight...they didnt...they play for 1 hour together...

We now do a very normal life and all 3 dogs together with no issues.

No muzzles, no collars, no leash, nothing.

In fact, knowing GSD´s and Alanos, i would say this was only posible due to Franky´s personality and temperament.

The way he avoids conflits, the way he is calm, the way he handles all situations is unbelievable. If you guys dont know the Spanish Alano breed go check them out...its very impresive.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Awesome! 
Thank you for your dedication to sorting this out without any bloodshed!


----------

