# How big is TOO big?



## PaintMySleep (Dec 29, 2008)

I read that GSD are a product of the "bigger is better" syndrome which results in badly breed dogs. I saw some woman advertising HUGE puppies, with the dad weighing 135lbs and the mom at 120lbs. They looked like small horses. Is that even normal? I read they were about 65lbs-85lbs. And she said they had good hip scores but is that possible at that size?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

This is my male that was that big. Perfect hip scores, gorgeous and one of the smartest of my 7 GSds. He was a mess inside, EPI, strange skin maladies and all kinds of other things I can't even remember - his breeder got sick of hearing from me about the time he was 2.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

GSDs were never designed to be the size of mastiffs. I do not feel it "ethical" for the GSD breed to support breeders who specifically breed for oversized dogs. I'd rather point people to the GSD lookalike breeds that were bred to be large and relatively low energy like Shilohs and Kings. Most breeders who tout oversized dogs tend to focus their entire breeding program on size and this is not indicative of a good breeder nor a good program. A good breeder of GSDs will put temperament and health at the top of the list, then perhaps conformation for sound structure, and then the details. Size and color will not determine whether a dog is afraid of fireworks, fear aggressive, active or a couch potato, or unhealthy as a dead horse, so personally I do look for a breeder who aims for a healthy, TRUE German shepherd dog. Advertise how healthy your lines are and their accomplishments and abilities (beyond that of trotting in a show ring) and that will mean more to me than the size of Dad and the color of Mom.

If you are interested in larger dogs, you can definitely find a great breeder who strives for the standard yet happens to have a litter that may meet or exceed the top of the standard just by chance. I think member Brightelf's Grimm is at the top of the standard or a bit larger by chance, not by intention. That's the best way to go if you want to find a large GSD.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

This is my Brady he weighs 110lbs and he is a BIG baby
his dad weighed 120 and mom 80lbs
and there are a lot of people on this website that know what a sweetie Brady


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Also be aware that most of the time, the dogs advertised as being 130 lbs are FAT. I had a GSD that was 29 inches tall and weighed 99lbs. He was a big dog, but not a FAT dog. Even with that exrta height, if he would have weighed 120 or 130 lbs he would have been fat. My 10 yo female is 25 inches tall which is slightly oversized for a female but her "ideal" weight is at or under 85 lbs. 

My 9 month old pup is 25 1/2 inches tall, which again is over the standard for a female. Last time I weighed her she weighed 62 lbs. She is taller than BOTH parents. Both her sire and dam are well within the standard for height and weight. My pup was 1 of 5 females in the litter, 2 were bigger thas has was and 2 smaller at 8 weeks. But the biggest female in the litter is not bigger than mine now. It is all really just a crap shoot. Her size was by CHANCE, not intention as was talked about in the post above.

Breeders that breed for large size also typically do NOT breed for ideal GSD temperment. A lot of them breed for a GSD that is oversized AND has the temeperment of a Golden Retriever.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What Tracy said (too often big = fat). GSD is a lean, medium-large sized working breed. I need to see defined muscle and maybe some rib.


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## Puddincat (Dec 14, 2008)

I am not impressed with breeders that brag about the over sized dogs. GSD's were not meant to be bred this way in my opinion. That to me is someone who breeds for the wrong reasons.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what's in the Shiloh and King Shepherds that makes them so big?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Steriods







Seriously, they took 2 dogs that were oversized and put them together. Then they took 2 more, before you know it's one of those commercials with the little boxes.


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

I have chimmed in on this topic before. 
All my shepherds are well within acceptable breed standards but I have been asked if they are "mini" shepherds as people round here seem to buy into the notion that a gsd is a "BIG" dog. 

I laugh at SAR handlers who have a hugh shepherd because at some point I know they will have to put that dog over a fence or into an attic ect. I would much rather boost my 75lb dog than a 110lbder. Plus my lean mean 75lb dog can pretty much clear a 6ft fence with little help from me, lets see the hugh dogs do that.

All joking aside I hate the idea of people breeding these huge gsd's its not good for the breed in general, and definately can't be good for the dogs themselves. An accidental oversized dog is one thing, intentionally contaminating their breeding program to breed dogs who are grossly out of the breed standards is irrisponsible.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Agree with the others. This breed is not designed to be that larger. Breeders intentionally breeding oversized dogs are not breeding out of respect for or a desire to improve or preserve the GSD breed but rather for their own ego, money and to feed a market that does believe "bigger is better".

And yes, quite often the dogs advertised as 110lbs etc.. are really 85lb dogs carrying a lot of additional fat. If you cannot feel the ribs when running your hands down a dog's side, he's fat.



> Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhat's in the Shiloh and King Shepherds that makes them so big?


They selected very large GSDs, and also crossed them with other larger breeds (Malamutes, Great Pyrenese, etc...)


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: k9sarneko
> I laugh at SAR handlers who have a hugh shepherd because at some point I know they will have to put that dog over a fence or into an attic ect. I would much rather boost my 75lb dog than a 110lbder. Plus my lean mean 75lb dog can pretty much clear a 6ft fence with little help from me, lets see the hugh dogs do that.


Those 75lb dog can probably work a lot longer at a time than the 110lb ones too. Being athletic and having a lot of stamina are NOT traits of huge dogs. If they WERE people would use dogs the size of a Great Pyr to herd their sheep and cattle, as size DOES matter to prey animals. (Though not as much as attitude.) My cattle and goats are/were more leary of Diva because of her size, but they are more respectfull of Wrangler (he weighs 40lbs) because of his ATTITUDE


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:What Tracy said (too often big = fat).


Sadly, many people are raising fat, bulky GSDs, regardless of the height they're breeding for. The culture seems enthralled with twiggy women & Sumo wrestlers dogs. 

I agree that many over sized breeders are selecting for a Golden temperament with GSD trappings. I don't quite get this as I think that Goldens are utterly gorgeous, but (IMO) excessively soft & lacking edge. (Sighhh. Why is nobody breeding for the GSD temperament in a Golden package?<jk>) This is undesirable (IMO), but not 'dangerous' & it won't degrade working, show or sporting lines b/c they'll never breed with these dogs. 




> Quote:Breeders intentionally breeding oversized dogs are not breeding out of respect for or a desire to improve or preserve the GSD breed but rather for their own ego, money and to feed a market that does believe "bigger is better".


This isn't limited to people breeding oversized GSDs. It's also true of breeders selecting for insane drives & uber aggression, as well as those campaigning, titling, *breeding* dogs known to be unsound, unhealthy & unfit. People breeding sound, healthy GSDs can be found in all sizes, coats, colors & types. Too many working line & show line breeders are propagating genetic nightmares b/c they're as obsessed about traits such as angulation, side gaiting, drive, bite work etc as any oversized breeder is about size. 

IMO, there's a lot more ego & glory seeking in the show & sport worlds than in those breeding companion GSDs. Frankly, I don't care how much ego or vanity is involved IF it doesn't compromise the selection for health, temperament & longevity. It's regrettably rare to see breeders bragging on how long lived & healthy their dogs are. IMO, those accomplishments are at least as worthy as ribbons & titles but are rarely remarked on when discussing the goals & accomplishments of particular breedings/lines etc. IF I was breeding working or sporting lines, I'd be more concerned with the bad breeding going on within those lines than people breeding companion dogs that are too fat &/or tall. 



> Quote:All joking aside I hate the idea of people breeding these huge gsd's its not good for the breed in general, and definately can't be good for the dogs themselves. An accidental oversized dog is one thing, intentionally contaminating their breeding program to breed dogs who are grossly out of the breed standards is irrisponsible.


In what way is it 'not good for the dogs themselves' when they're healthy, active, long lived with stable temperaments? Over sized companion GSDs have no effect on sporting, working or show lines b/c show, sport & working breeders won't breed with 'em.

I think it's risky to acquire an 'accidental over sized dog'. I want GSDs that are conscientiously, _deliberately_ bred for health & longevity in a tall package. Someone who breeds 24-26" GSDs might not get the same structural strength/soundness in dogs 2-4" taller. Breeders with an established history of producing sound, healthy GSDs that are also quite tall are preferable when seeking a tall dog.

Irresponsible? I respect that's your opinion & the opinion of many others on this board. I don't share the opinion(obviously). GSDs are riddled with serious health & temperament problems which are completely disconnected from its size. Breeders who refuse to address, & even propagate such problems, are more irresponsible than those breeding healthy GSDs that are tall, lc or white & they're reprehensible as well. 

Tracy, giant flock guards, such as Akbash, Kangal & Anatolians are powerful, athletic & possessed of enormous stamina. They lack the agility of a JRT or BC, but can twist, turn & maneuver admirably. Big dogs are couch potatoes only if they're raised to be couch potatoes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> Tracy, giant flock guards, such as Akbash, Kangal & Anatolians are powerful, athletic & possessed of enormous stamina. They lack the agility of a JRT or BC, but can twist, turn & maneuver admirably. Big dogs are couch potatoes only if they're raised to be couch potatoes.


But they have a totally different conformation and structure than a GSD. A human and a Gorilla are pretty similar too but a human weighing the same as a healthy Gorilla (like 300-400lbs) is morbidly obese and significantly shortening his or her lifespan.

I don't disagree that a good number of breeders are breeding other problems but I don't think that excuses breeding over size. What gets to me is that I have yet to find a breeder breeding an oversized dog that IS keeping up with OFAs, titling, training and trialing to evaluate temperament, showing, etc. Every breeder I've come across who ignores large size or even promotes it are the ones who give you a blank stare when you ask about titles, training, OFAs, etc.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:I think it's risky to acquire an 'accidental over sized dog'.


Not at all. Genetics are what they are and a little extra height doesn't mean the whole dog is out of whack. It's not like a taller dog in a litter of standard dogs has Marfan syndrome. This is the best way to go, really- the program is held within standard, dogs are bred to the standard, they are health tested and worked/titled, sometimes dogs are just over/under height depending on the stud and bitch and their histories. Often, a dog farther back in the pedigree can influence a current litter and boom- a medium sized sire and dam produce dogs an inch or two over standard. 



> Quote:Every breeder I've come across who ignores large size or even promotes it are the ones who give you a blank stare when you ask about titles, training, OFAs, etc.


I agree. If you want something risky, go with a breeder who intentionally breeds large dogs. That's a game of genetic roulette I'll gladly pass on.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:*from BlackGSD*
> Being athletic and having a lot of stamina are NOT traits of huge dogs.





> Quote:
> *from RubyTuesday*
> Tracy, giant flock guards, such as Akbash, Kangal & Anatolians are powerful, athletic & possessed of enormous stamina.





> Quote:*from Liesje*
> But they have a totally different conformation and structure than a GSD.


Different, yes. Totally different? Not really, however Tracy's comment referred to _dogs_ generally & not GSDs specifically. Comments are frequently made that disparage the athleticism & abilities of over sized GSDs based purely on their size. Such remarks are not necessarily true. In fact, 'over sized' is poorly defined. It can encompass dogs that are 1) tall, 2) massive, 3) tall & massive or 4) simply very heavy(fat). My personal preference is for a very tall dog with substantial but not massive bone & lean. From what I've seen & read, I prefer less bone & weight than many of those who favor over sized GSDs, but I like a taller dog.

Arguments made that oppose breeding over sized GSDs s/b rooted in fact. Over sized GSDs are outside the standard. Fact. The crap routinely piled on about over sized GSDs' temperament, health & intelligence or their breeders' greed, stupidity, moral culpability is specious & inflammatory.

Finding healthy, long lived over sized GSDs isn't difficult. Nor is it hard to find breeders of large GSDs whose breeding stock is OFA & scrupulously selected for temperament. My passion is companion dogs. I'll seek out titled dogs when those titles rigorously reflect the canine quirks & qualities important to me. As of now they really don't & are frankly worthless _to me_ in evaluating the dogs I want. When I need a plumber I need a plumber. Someone without those credentials who rattles off awards s/he earned singing opera, winning a 10k race, honored as Mom of the year, awarded a Purple Heart, 10000+ volunteer hours worked, donated 60+ gallons of blood is obviously a worthy, even enviable individual, but I'm not trusting her with my pipes. 

I'm not surprised that those who _ignore_ large size are overall clueless. I'm not interested in breeders that _ignore_ size any more than I'd choose breeders who _ignore_ shyness, timidity, seizure disorders, short life spans, rampant allergies or behavioral disorders. I want breeders who select for size as part of the over all GSD that I'm interested in.



> Quote:*from Liesje*
> Every breeder I've come across who ignores large size or even promotes it are the ones who give you a blank stare when you ask about titles, training, OFAs, etc.





> Quote:*from DianaM*
> If you want something risky, go with a breeder who intentionally breeds large dogs. That's a game of genetic roulette I'll gladly pass on.


You can just as easily get that blank stare from idjits proudly breeding fearful, snappy, dangerously unstable, working lines or nervous, reactive show shepherds that can't get off their hocks to jump & wobble when they walk. Gawdawful breeders abound regardless of your preferred type. For flatout risky few things beat the PP/Shutzhund/working lines breeder who doesn't distinguish b/w fear aggression & protection & is utterly clueless to predatory aggression while proudly breeding volatile, vicious, unreliable dogs. Should all sporting/working line breeders be lumped in with these swaggering dildoes?



> Quote:Genetics are what they are and a little extra height doesn't mean the whole dog is out of whack. It's not like a taller dog in a litter of standard dogs has Marfan syndrome. This is the best way to go, really- the program is held within standard, dogs are bred to the standard,


We'll have to agree to disagree. I prefer breeders who have years of experience producing structurally sound, over sized GSDs over those striving for dogs 3-4" shorter. Someone who produces 24-26" dogs might or might not get the same strength & structural integrity in much taller dogs. This is especially concerning as those opposed to larger GSDs so often raise the spectre of an increased likelihood of HD. I know that the breeders I'm interested in get good hips, health & longevity in a large package. Breeders selecting for much smaller dogs either can't really know this about their larger progeny, or they're only paying lip service to breeding to the standard, while actually breeding a considerable # of dogs well over the standard.


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