# Is my GSD a Good Representative of the Breed?



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I know in the show ring, she would flop. I know in agility, she would be a too large.

Is my dog a good representative of the breed, the normal, outside of specialty breeding for the show ring or agility? This, to me would be to me, is she a good representative of the breed to the non-professional, to the average Joe on the street?

I think I have mommy goggles on right now, but I notice, I think - that her withers could be higher, her neck not so long??? Just wondering - I think her ears are outstanding! (but I may be wrong), what'da'ya'all think? (last pic is her puppy body).

If I were to think GSD female, this is what I would think of (I am a fan of straight back). But, I see much different lately.... Ears different (shorter pyramid), eyes kinda of "foxy" looking????

Thanks for your comments!


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Why do you think she wouldn't do well in agility? My girl loves it and flies through the course, she is super fast. She weighed the same as yours and is also very tall at the same age.


----------



## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Stone, she is beautiful! Such long legs!


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Your dog is beautiful.

As for 'good representative of the breed'... 
Why is that important to you?
Are you thinking of breeding?
The criteria for that is a lot more stringent than having a great wonderful, beautiful family pet.
It also depends on what type of breeding, and what people want to achieve and why.

For people to give an honest appraisal, it takes much more than a picture.
The dog would not be a very good showline candidate, which is the closest appraisal you can really sort of get from a picture.


----------



## Vadermomma (Jan 15, 2015)

She is so pretty!!


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Gorgeous. There are so many types of GSDs. I believe that the only official standard is the AKC. So a good working line dog will not be a representative of the breed in that case. But the best one is our own dog; the one you live with and love to pieces.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

If you think she is, that's all that matters.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh thank you for the comments! The reason I'm asking is that I was asked a couple of days ago. In my neighborhood, there are 3 other GSD's. One is a Shiloh, one looks obese (to me) and one is yellow in color and on the short side(this one is trained to a tee - I'm so jealous!).

I know that Summer is taller than average and she has a straight back and these things I told the person, but it just got me to wondering. No, I'm not going to breed her. I decided against it. Never want to do anything that could remotely be a risk to her health. 

I'm thinking that mostly, what I'll be explaining is the idea of the typical GSD looking like the ones in the show ring vs working lines.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Please do some research on the different lines before you start trying to explain to people about the breed.

Just your idea that the "average joe" should have a different expectation of the breed standard than what the show or working people expect is really disheartening to those of us that care about the breed standard.

The fact that you focus so much on a "straight back" is extremely concerning, and I'm sorry, but it's just typical "I don't really know that much" speak.

On this forum, you won't get people to point out the "faults" in your personal dog. Especially if you're not asking from a breed standard standpoint. So you have to take all comments about your own dog with a grain of salt. It's tough to tell someone the faults you see in their dog when they're clearly so in love with it. Many of the things are definitely subjective, but some of them are just clearly due to lack of exposure and knowledge of the breed standard.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Please do some research on the different lines before you start trying to explain to people about the breed.
> 
> Just your idea that the "average joe" should have a different expectation of the breed standard than what the show or working people expect is really disheartening to those of us that care about the breed standard.
> 
> ...


Ha! I'm not sure where you got the notion that I'm focused on straight back. Although it is one of the most prominent differences that people see on the dogs between the show ring on TV and real life. My plan is not to give a full dissertation on the topic. This is merely a sentence or two passing by on the street if they ask about my dog.

If they want more information than that, I will direct them to you martemchik.


----------



## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

To clarify, I'm posting this as it's relevant to a dog being a ideal representative of the breed.

If you're just worried about having a good pet and not breeding, then you shouldn't worry on this.  

The whole "straight back" thing can get frustrating. So many people think that because a dog slopes when stacked, that they have "weak" backs. When in reality the slope has nothing to do with their backs. It's created by their rear angulation, which is important in a GSD. It looks like your sweet girl could use more, and more turn of stifle(knee) which causes her rear to look high. The proper amount of rear angulation gives a dog good reach when gaiting. You don't want too much either though, too much or too litter isn't good.  

In a dog with ideal structure, you will see a slight slope when placed in a stack.

Standing normally:








Versus stacked:








(other members might have a better picture example)

Here's a link to SV standard if you're curious, a lot of good info on this site as well.
The German SV Standard - German Shepherd Guide



But like I said, if you're not worried about breeding and she's just a pet then I wouldn't stress over it! She's a pretty girl, and as long as she's healthy and happy she's good.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you for your reply! I do see that now. I watched a utube video and it showed a GSD running and the "reach" was incredible. When my GSD is running, she does not have that "reach" on strides. I do see in photo one that the pups back legs are well past the back of the body when standing normally whereas Summers are not. It's easier to see it there, (was trying to look at the front part of the leg and knee and wasn't seeing it) Now, following that line up, I can see the angulation where the leg and latter portion of the back meet at angles. 

No, my question was not intended for breeding consideration. Just trying to get some basic information to help with conversation with passers by on the street. Thanks again.


----------



## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Don't let a GSDs bigger size fool you into thinking they are lumbering giants, they can move with the quickness when needed. They can't cut and run with a Border Collie, BUT they can dang sure keep a BC on it's toes.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> There are so many types of GSDs.* I believe that the only official standard is the AKC. So a good working line dog will not be a representative of the breed in that case.*


:thinking: I think the German's may disagree with the American Kennel Club standard being the only official standard. Ya know, that pesky SV that Max created and all.

German Shepherds » SV Standard

And if a person compares pictures of GSD's in Max's day to any line today, none would fit.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I was trying to look at it as a matter of mechanics. If a certain "angle" provides superior range of motion to enable longer strides, does not hamper and is "in harmony" with the rest of the body, wouldn't it be more desirable and not in conflict with either school of thought?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stonevintage said:


> I was trying to look at it as a matter of mechanics. If a certain "angle" provides superior range of motion to enable longer strides, does not hamper and is "in harmony" with the rest of the body, wouldn't it be more desirable and not in conflict with either school of thought?


If you read the SV standard, you'll find a spot that specifies, in degrees, range of motion at the shoulder which is 90 degrees. The way my show handler trainer explained it is that my working line has less than 90. It wont' affect him getting the job done but it does affect how he performs the motion to do it. 

So yes, a certain angle gives a higher range of motion. To much angle hampers that motion. To little angle hampers that motion. BUT, it doesn't mean the dog won't be able to trot all day right beside the dog that has the correct angle. It just means the dog is not within the breed standard.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> wolfy dog said:
> 
> 
> > There are so many types of GSDs.* I believe that the only official standard is the AKC. So a good working line dog will not be a representative of the breed in that case.*
> ...



Like we said earlier... A good rep. Of the breed could be based on several criteria...

Jax brings up a good point of the sv standard... Which goes far beyond hip positioning angulation and a picture...

The story here?

Well there is no way a dog can be a good representative of the breed based on a picture.. No matter, even if it's the basic American line criteria..

A good rep of the breed may need working titles, good hip scores... 

So the blunt answer is no... The dog is no way shape or form a good rep of any type of gsd breed standard... There is a lot of work to be done and considerations to take into account to be able to say that.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Well, that makes perfect sense too. Is the problem with HD then, not caused by either no, correct or over angulation?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> :thinking: I think the German's may disagree with the American Kennel Club standard being the only official standard. Ya know, that pesky SV that Max created and all.
> 
> German Shepherds » SV Standard
> 
> And if a person compares pictures of GSD's in Max's day to any line today, none would fit.


I was referring to the American standard. I am sure that every country has its own equivalent of the AKC and, along with that,their own standards.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Gorgeous. There are so many types of GSDs. I believe that the only official standard is the AKC. So a good working line dog will not be a representative of the breed in that case. But the best one is our own dog; the one you live with and love to pieces.


For such an important nation in the development of the gsd

I think the akc is a bit of a sell out with regards to what the breed is supposed to represent.

akc just shows a minimum std.. With no regard to working ability. Or the founder of the gsd reason for establishing the breed... Let's not forget it is called the 'German shephard'

It's kind of the McDonaldisation of the gsd...


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> wolfy dog said:
> 
> 
> > Gorgeous. There are so many types of GSDs. I believe that the only official standard is the AKC. So a good working line dog will not be a representative of the breed in that case. But the best one is our own dog; the one you live with and love to pieces.
> ...


I shouldn't say minimum std that is wrong... A different set of criteria that is not holistic to all the attributes required in the idealistic version of the gsd...

It's kind of like saying a gsd should look like and move like brad Pitt to be the perfect actor, without consideration for actual acting ability..

It's like trying to find the fastest person in the world by the way they look and move... But not considering how fast they run the 100m in..
Under that criteria, ussain bolt would be considered a 'bad breeding' prospect.. (100m athletes were traditionally considered shorter and stockier... Bolt breaks all the rules... Yet he is the fastest man to have ever lived...

So the perfect rep. Of the breed can not be judged devoid of the hollistic nature of what max intended it to be.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> For such an important nation in the development of the gsd
> 
> I think the akc is a bit of a sell out with regards to what the breed is supposed to represent.
> 
> ...


If you want to stay with the original "German" standard, then you mean that you look first for herding ability and you would place a higher value on that than any other quality? 

Things change. Virtually every domestic animal in the world has been changed from it's original form and most are used for different purposes than way back when. Would you always have things stay the same long after the original use has long vanished ? 

Many people use the GSD of today as a working companion and most don't really have a use for a good sheep dog . There are people that "collect" fine examples of an original, but there are many more people that need them to function in a practical manner in today's world-


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I was trying to look at it as a matter of mechanics. If a certain "angle" provides superior range of motion to enable longer strides, does not hamper and is "in harmony" with the rest of the body, wouldn't it be more desirable and not in conflict with either school of thought?


If the mechanics you are curious about refers to the "flying trot "..yes, there are definite physical characteristics which create and complement this particular gait which is certainly part of the breed standard. The angle created from the thigh to the hock to the metatarsus in the rears is certainly a contributing physical factor in the dog's ability to move in this "flying trot". The reach and drive as earlier mentioned is a characteristic many breeders try to incorporate in their master plan. I know you have seen this video before perhaps....but it certainly shows a GSD with incredible reach/overreach as well as the wonderful drive mechanics. There are some GSDs which are great "movers" judged by the standards and in this pursuit, there have been many an argument along the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A


SuperG


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Lykoz said:
> 
> 
> > For such an important nation in the development of the gsd
> ...


Things obviously change... 

But the precept of why the breed was created should never change... 

The gsd was always meant to be a functional dog...

Now as a pet owner it's ok if my dog is not the epitome of the breed... But breeding dogs or a dog worthy of 'good representative of the breed' needs to be...

Read up on max the founder of the gsd... It was always far beyond a bunch of herding dogs...

He selected herding dogs with working ability... Because he was the founder... He had to start somewhere... The gsd was never bred to be a hearing dog however...



"As Germany became increasingly industrialized and the pastoral era declined, von Stephanitz realized the breed might also decline. With the co-operation of police and working dog clubs a set of specific tests was developed in tracking, formal obedience, and protection work. This was the prototype of the present Schutzhund trials. He persuaded the authorities to utilize the German shepherd dog in various branches of government service. The dog served during the war as Red Cross dogs, messenger dogs, supply carriers, sentinel, tracking and guard dogs. "


If the American lines carry on the way they are going we might end up with another case of an English bulldog... From bull baiting to sitting...

I could never understand how you can discern ability to move from watching a dog trot...

You certainly can't identify a top nfl receiver from watching him jog... Or from him posting a selfie...


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Yep, that's the one I'm talking about, amazing.


----------



## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Here's a link that talks about rear angles and such in more depth. 
New Page 1


This image shows you what I mean when I'm referring to "turn of stifle" (the knee), but the examples of overangulated are not correct as this is for a different breed with less angles to them. But hopefully it helps you picture what body part I'm referring to


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The last I knew the GSD Club of America set the breed standard for AKC. Maybe that is no longer true. Haven't looked at AKC stuff for a long while.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> I could never understand how you can discern ability to move from watching a dog trot...


The amount of ground a dog can cover in a particular gait most likely has it's benefits....effortlessly or so it appears ( by watching a dog trot) obviously has merit. The biggest mistake so many make is comparing a GSD of yesteryear to the current version. A dog's trot is as important as an NFL wide receiver's break away speed ..amongst other things. 

If you want to go all the way back into a dog's evolution.... wild canid's economy of motion is paramount to it's existence. Having to cover vast distances in the hopes of finding prey to kill, ultimately favored canines which could roam great distances with the least amount of energy burn. I suppose this same "economy of motion" also favors other purposes as well.

The standard is the standard....there are differing standards worldwide but nevertheless there are standards and that is the bottom line.


SuperG


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Got it. That matches what I understood you to explain to me. I saw that lacking in her, but when she was standing in a different position it would look fine. 

The part that helped me so much on your two pictures are the metal bars showing under the glass tabletop. I saw the natural standing position, then the posed one. I always thought the pose extended one back leg out further than it should normally be, but I see the one back leg remained in the same natural position and you brought the inside leg up to be tucked. (Thanks to that bar under the table I could see the outside foot did not move).


----------



## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

SuperG said:


> The amount of ground a dog can cover in a particular gait most likely has it's benefits....effortlessly or so it appears ( by watching a dog trot) obviously has merit. The biggest mistake so many make is comparing a GSD of yesteryear to the current version. A dog's trot is as important as an NFL wide receiver's break away speed ..amongst other things.
> 
> If you want to go all the way back into a dog's evolution.... wild canid's economy of motion is paramount to it's existence. Having to cover vast distances in the hopes of finding prey to kill, ultimately favored canines which could roam great distances with the least amount of energy burn. I suppose this same "economy of motion" also favors other purposes as well.
> 
> ...


Its all about interpretation I suppose. Referring back to the video of Dingo you posted above, yes it is beautiful, but is it 100% vital to have? Having a long stride like this is good to have in a herding dog, but also remember as a herding breed, they need to chase animals. That requires turn of motion movements and sudden change in direction. So perhaps in addition to a nice trot that can cover long distances, they need a good turn of pace. No point only running fast in a straight line to me at least.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> Things obviously change...
> 
> But the precept of why the breed was created should never change...
> 
> ...


Ha. I like this.

ETA: I realized that added nothing to the post, but I just wanted to comment on it because I thought it was clever. 

To OP, "a good representative of the breed" imo is kind of subjective and depends on context and audience. I personally wouldn't consider her a "good representative of the breed" based on what you've shared here. However, my "standard" and "idea" of a great representative of the breed, deals more in workability above all else. I'd want to see her more in action, see how the environment stimulated her, see how she handled stress, etc...I don't care for her structure, again that is a personal preference. 

From a "pet" standpoint, I think a "good representive" is one that doesn't go around lighting up at non-threatening things, can remain neutral in neutral situations, shows confidence when courage is required, shows extremely strong nerve, shows environmental stability, and I could go on. I think a "bad" one is one that does the opposite of everything I've listed. I see them around my area quite a bit, nervy, hackles up, snarls, shy away from a pat, hiding behind owners, hard eyes, etc...Anyways, those are my thoughts.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Ha. I like this.
> 
> ETA: I realized that added nothing to the post, but I just wanted to comment on it because I thought it was clever.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comment. Yes, this post went from good representative on the street to ideal representative at the global level in a flash. It is apparent that to many, only the ideal global is good (whatever their particular line preference is) regardless of context or audience. 

Summer is still a pup (9 mos) and discovering new things or situations daily. I cannot judge her until we have had a chance to experience more things, she has had the training to learn desired responses (or non response) and I learn how to bring these things about for her. 

I am happy with her progress in every area except her dislike for all other dogs. She may not be a good representative but I know she's not a bad one either (by way of your description of bad).


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for your comment. Yes, this post went from good representative on the street to ideal representative at the global level in a flash. It is apparent that to many, only the ideal global is good (whatever their particular line preference is) regardless of context or audience.
> 
> Summer is still a pup (9 mos) and discovering new things or situations daily. I cannot judge her until we have had a chance to experience more things, she has had the training to learn desired responses (or non response) and I learn how to bring these things about for her.
> 
> I am happy with her progress in every area except her dislike for all other dogs. She may not be a good representative but I know she's not a bad one either (by way of your description of bad).


Representative on the street? 

You might as well call the street std. 'the four legged cookie monster'... And then you can have any criteria you like.

When I compared them to an NFL star, I could have just easily compared them to a standout college or high school level player... (At least they PLAYED Football...)
No show of working ability is not 'a good representative of the breed' by the standards the GSD was created on.
Now from a Am Showline perspective... Still a picture does no justice... The criteria is different. But still... 

You want a good 'representative of the Chow Chow...' a much easier task...

A good GSD rep, means a lot more to a lot of people.
Devaluing the breed by giving it some sort of 'street cred' is ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is 95% of everyone's dogs are probably not 'good representatives of the breed'...
That is not how selective breeding works, which is the precept of saying a dog is a 'good rep. of the breed'.

You want to make up your own standards? Well then call the GSD something else...

The AKC should of probably called the GSD an American Shepherd by now.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> If you want to go all the way back into a dog's evolution.... wild canid's economy of motion is paramount to it's existence. Having to cover vast distances in the hopes of finding prey to kill, ultimately favored canines which could roam great distances with the least amount of energy burn. I suppose this same "economy of motion" also favors other purposes as well.
> 
> SuperG


I have never seen a wild Canid that travels long distances, move like a championship show-line GSD... Just saying...

You want stamina.... Well then you would need to test running over a long period. A few beautiful strides, cant prove that either.

Its the equivalent of asking a professional sports scientist to predict who would win the Boston Marathon by watching 50 athletes he has never seen before, trot around for a couple of minutes.

The distance canids you speak of, all have raised hips...
As does a springbok, and any animal with long duration economy of motion.

The thing is the breed std. in conformation, Is influenced on opinions with no empirical evidence.
They confirm each others ideas and agreeably nod, and call themselves experts.. Yet there is absolutely no science behind it, other than creating 'beautifully moving dogs'...

Max emphasised the ability to WORK... As the most important... The rest of his std's were just assumptions he made.. 
The Work in the GSD cant really be separated.

Not bashing Show lines.. I own Showlines. But lets not pretend our dogs are something their not.
At least the German lines, kept the SV standard which should be a minimum in creating a GSD the way it was meant to work.

So the one benefit of the trot you mentioned about 'distance' seems suspect.. Anyways... That is not a core attribute with regards to the dogs working ability. 

I would think speed and power would help such dogs work better in modern society anyways...


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

nezzz said:


> Its all about interpretation I suppose. Referring back to the video of Dingo you posted above, yes it is beautiful, but is it 100% vital to have? Having a long stride like this is good to have in a herding dog, but also remember as a herding breed, they need to chase animals. That requires turn of motion movements and sudden change in direction. So perhaps in addition to a nice trot that can cover long distances, they need a good turn of pace. No point only running fast in a straight line to me at least.


Oh....I can't disagree one bit....I am strictly responding with the AKC standard in mind. The AKC conformation competitions do not care/judge in the slightest about a dog's herding ability....granted some of the physical attributes they are judged on may lend hand to herding abilities but hardly scratches the surface. The gait displayed in the show ring is judged therefore a standard has been devised as a benchmark of sorts. Show dogs are simply that...aesthetics with a particular gait which is judged. There are show dogs and there are work dogs...not to be confused I guess.

However, I have debated my brother in law about this subject and never really come to an agreement....my question to him..Are there national champions of the show ring which also are national champions in herding ? I contend a herding dog breed winning a national ( conformation ) along with being a national winner in herding would be more of the total dog. Same goes with any of the sporting group dogs....how many national conformation winners along with national field trial winners?....once again...more of the total dog. Hopefully, someone will correct me if I am wrong about this but Zamp vom Thermodos is kind of an example but not to the degree I am ultimately describing. I believe besides Zamp being a world sieger, he was also a winner of best of breed in 2008 at Crufts as well....

So, my contention is as I previously stated.....there are show dogs and there are working dogs....not to be confused...perhaps there are rare exceptions ??

Granted the AKC does have herding trials described as such in their overview.." _The judge is looking for the dog’s ability to move and control livestock by fetching or driving. The purpose of the competitive herding trial program is to preserve and develop the herding skills inherent in the herding breeds, and to demonstrate that they can perform the useful functions for which they were originally bred_." Even though they use the word "move" I rather doubt it is based on the particular gait the same dog would be judged on in the conformation ring.

SuperG


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lykoz said:


> I have never seen a wild Canid that travels long distances, move like a championship show-line GSD... Just saying...
> 
> You want stamina.... Well then you would need to test running over a long period. A few beautiful strides, cant prove that either.
> 
> ...


To get a show rating in Germany, the dogs have to run/trot 12 miles next to a bicycle. It is called an endurance test. 

With the proper angulation the dog covers the same distance with less work. Yes a dog with less angulation and more drive or energy can cover the same distance. 

Whether what is put up in the various rings is structurally correct or not with respect to angulation is another question, but this "straight back" lingo is just uninformed. 

The other thing is that the breed has evolved differently in Germany and in the US because herding is different in both places. From what I understand from talks with my friend from Germany, the dog would be used to move the sheep along highways and farm land, keeping the sheep from getting slaughtered in the road, and keeping them out of the fields. We don't do that here. My ASL buddies talk about the dog running around the flock to make a virtual fence. I really think that is more show people talking than herding people talking, but I don't really know how true shepherds work their flocks with dogs here in the state, only that I never see 200 sheep walking alongside busy road ways here to get to their fields. 

In both places though, a sheep-herding dog is going to spend a lot more time working than any show dog or pet. The temperament -- drives, intelligence, energy levels of the true working dog would probably make most show owners and pet owners, and even most I-do-schutzhund once a week owners go crazy. A dog that can run around moving and guarding sheep all day won't fit in a box for 8-10 hours a day, day in and day out, and then snooze around in front of the idiot-box hoping his owner might take him out and play fetch before bed. Not happening.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for your comment. Yes, this post went from good representative on the street to ideal representative at the global level in a flash. It is apparent that to many, only the ideal global is good (whatever their particular line preference is) regardless of context or audience.


 Just a question...why shouldn't there be a single standard? Why do you believe it's alright for "on the street" to have a different standard than what the actual breed standard calls for? Why does the audience have any bearing on what the standard is?

Shouldn't we educate the people on the street of what the actual standard is? Rather than point out how our dogs are different from that standard and why WE believe that our dog is better than what the show or working standard calls for?

I didn't want to get into it about your dog, mostly because people get really hurt when they love their dog and you start telling them all the issues you can see with their dog and how its "incorrect." Which is why I brought up that you need to educate yourself more, so that you can figure out those things for yourself and not just buy dogs that are being bred against the breed standard because in your inexperienced opinion...those dogs are better than what the breed standard calls for. If you're going to be telling people why YOUR dog is better or just different than those they see on TV, or those they see in their neighborhood, and you can sound even a little bit smart about it, they'll probably believe you and start thinking the same as you. How is that a good thing when your idea of the breed standard is so limited?

Sorry, but there were even some things you pointed out on your dog that are clearly just a subjective opinion of someone who loves their own animal and are completely backwards of what the breed standard calls for. That's the kind of thing that you should understand and not spread as truth about the breed.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> I have never seen a wild Canid that travels long distances, move like a championship show-line GSD... Just saying...
> 
> You want stamina.... Well then you would need to test running over a long period. A few beautiful strides, cant prove that either.
> 
> ...


Economy of motion comes in many forms....it's somewhat a bit of folly to compare different species with regards to the exact mechanics....the commonality is what gets the animal the farthest distance with the least effort/calorie burn. It's a bit far fetched to assume I meant the mechanics of a wolf and GSD are mirror images as they simply are not...the point I am making is a particular gait favors an animals needs better than other gaits...Example, I can pace my dog at a flying trot gait for 1-2 miles on my bike and the dog is hardly showing any signs of increased exertion whereas I run my dog for a much much shorter distance and the dog will be breathing much harder. For a GSD with this particular gait, it would seem it is absolutely the most efficient method for the dog to travel the greatest distance/time....just that simple.

I still scratch my head about these comparisons of Max's dogs to today's dogs....there is no comparison in this department regarding the gait...the gait of today's GSDs ( showlines) is completely different than yesteryear's GSDs....BUT...the gait which is exhibited and judged as "superior" for today's GSDs is most likely the most economical for the structure and mechanics of today's GSD...not a wolf, springbok or elephant....much less Max's GSDs.

I believe the gait utilized during the AD (Ausdauerpruefung) would resemble the flying trot as it most likely is the best pace for a 12.5 mile endurance test.

I think we both agree that trying to use a standard which is no longer employed is of little value....at best the working line GSDs still exhibit some of his standards.

SuperG


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Economy of motion comes in many forms....it's somewhat a bit of folly to compare different species with regards to the exact mechanics....the commonality is what gets the animal the farthest distance with the least effort/calorie burn. It's a bit far fetched to assume I meant the mechanics of a wolf and GSD are mirror images as they simply are not...the point I am making is a particular gait favors an animals needs better than other gaits...Example, I can pace my dog at a flying trot gait for 1-2 miles on my bike and the dog is hardly showing any signs of increased exertion whereas I run my dog for a much much shorter distance and the dog will be breathing much harder. For a GSD with this particular gait, it would seem it is absolutely the most efficient method for the dog to travel the greatest distance/time....just that simple.
> 
> I still scratch my head about these comparisons of Max's dogs to today's dogs....there is no comparison in this department regarding the gait...the gait of today's GSDs ( showlines) is completely different than yesteryear's GSDs....BUT...the gait which is exhibited and judged as "superior" for today's GSDs is most likely the most economical for the structure and mechanics of today's GSD...not a wolf, springbok or elephant....much less Max's GSDs.
> 
> ...


Economy of motion, is about survival of the fittest...

With selective breeding we chose what attributes go forward.
I have no actual opinion on which is better.

But here is the thing. If the dogs are not tested in the task they are bred for, nobody else can know either...

The vision of a GSD that makes it in my opinion something above other breeds is the thorough testing some lines do for working ability.
Without that, over time the GSD might become nothing more than an oversized toy dog.

We talk about not being able to compare two different species...
Its a good point... But I cant help but notice how similar movement is between the fastest dog breed (GreyHound) in the world and the Cheetah.

You see when it comes to 4 legged movement ergonomics, there are only so many ways you can move efficiently on 4 legs for the task you need to accomplish. Running fast is easier to compare, and that is the only reason I bring that up.







You want the perfect ergonomical design in a sprint dog? How do you achieve that? You make it SPRINT... These dogs are getting faster and faster, because they are bred for speed... How? By showcasing their speed...

A lot simpler to do than a GSD...

However a true testament of the GSD breed should have some sort of working test... It needs it to stand out and be what it was created to be.
I mean again its a GERMAN shepherd.

Anyways.. This thread has deviated a bit.

There are multiple criteria. 
The fact is Titling a dog is too much work for commercial America.
There is a market for beauty in the pet industry, so the GSD is being diluted...
They really should call it the American Shepherd.

If I had to pick a good rep. of the breed... I would not chose my own dogs. Myself or them have not earned that title... That title is earned...

You don't get born a Track Star, if you never show you can run, or try it... Maybe you would be good.. Maybe you wouldn't... Fact is we don't know.

You dont pass the Bar to become a lawyer just because you were born... You study law and work hard to prove you can do it..

Same with good rep. of the breed. Its an earned title.

Now for those that are ok for good rep. of the breed to essentially be a Glamour model fine...
But is that really what the GSD represents?

Now shore... I dont necessarily need my dog to be titled... 
But I like the idea that their 'forefathers' were titled...
It's part of the reason I like the GSD...
Its part of the reason they are so great to work with, and stand out as even a pet dog.
That is part of the reason I chose to own German Shepherds.

I may not have wanted the highest drive dog, but i still like the idea that a dog comes from 'better lineage', with some considerations for workability.
If i know my dog comes from generations of some sort of working test, I know he is better suited to meet my less stringent pet dog guidelines.
I mean why do people get GSD's anyways? Surely the breed represents something?
Its about time people stopped piggy backing off the Working GSD's reputation and accepted some things.

Either your dog is bred to be what is intended of a GSD... Or it is not... If it is not.. that is fine... But please dont go calling them good rep. of the breed...


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Representative on the street?
> 
> You might as well call the street std. 'the four legged cookie monster'... And then you can have any criteria you like.
> 
> ...


Well, Lykoz - 
The reason it's easier to find a "good" representation of a Chow Chow than a GSD is because of the tower of bs babble that people have built up around the GSD. No one can agree on the ideal so how do you think that any ideal can exist? The ideal is only an opinion. As well defined as the standard was created to be, it still leaves room for opinion. Everyone wants something different. 

The condescending attitudes held by each country and each segment of people within who are controlling (or not controlling) the GSD lines are the very one's responsible for the mess. No country or people have a clean record of not putting money before the best interest of the breed. To try to blame one country over another is so common and so petty. 

You can discount the 95% of us who will never even attend a show or see a GSD champion in real life. Do that and you are placing yourself in some kind of Lykoz fantasy land separated from reality. We are who the breed was created for not the show ring or agility field. We are who 95% of the GSD's spend their lives with. The most many of us will see in our world on our streets in our cities are GSD's that are the result of the efforts of local breeders. Forgive us but we do talk among ourselves and share about our dogs. The fact that we do not have vast knowledge or ability to select BOB champions to become our family pets does not discount or affect our enjoyment of the GSD AS WE KNOW HIM.

95 people out of 100 do not care about all the infighting among the 5% of the purists. We'd just like a dog that is healthy and has a good temperament so it can be trained. One that looks like a GSD. That to the 95% is a good representation of the breed at this point.

You keep comparing GSD's to male sport stars (most of which have an iq of 10). I think Max would look down on you and just shake his head.


----------



## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

The op it seems has a pet quality GSD, to the OP that is not a diss, but it seems your breeder did not have or try to breed to the standard. You have what's known here as the "American pet line" 

So physically the answer is, no, she's a lovely dog but doesn't represent the breed well.
As for straight back, others touched on it but she doesn't have a completely straight back because it seems she has a bit of a roach where her back is higher than her withers?
Her rear is definitely higher and that affects movement. It's like constantly walking downhill, which for a four legged creature is a little difficult. 

While "pet owners" poo poo standards and say they just want a pet, and don't care about showing their dog, they fail to realize that the way a dog looks affects it's movement. That's what you were talking about when you mentioned reach.
You and I don't care about getting a dog bred to the standard inasmuch as we won't be showing it anytime soon, but we do care about it's health and how it moves!

One can compare the breed standard by going to AKC or the German equivalent where it shows photos of dogs that are the standard. Keeping in mind all dogs have faults, but the closer to the standard, the better!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> You can discount the 95% of us who will never even attend a show or see a GSD champion in real life. Do that and you are placing yourself in some kind of Lykoz fantasy land separated from reality. *We are who the breed was created for not the show ring or agility field. We are who 95% of the GSD's spend their lives with.* The most many of us will see in our world on our streets in our cities are GSD's that are the result of the efforts of local breeders. Forgive us but we do talk among ourselves and share about our dogs. The fact that we do not have vast knowledge or ability to select BOB champions to become our family pets does not discount or affect our enjoyment of the GSD AS WE KNOW HIM.


It's really unfortunate that you think this way. I'm sorry, but the GSD was not created for you. The GSD was intended to be a working dog. Back in the day, when people would cull (eliminate dogs) there wasn't an overproduction of GSD and they probably rarely went to what we today would consider "pet homes." Today, society has moved from the need for dogs to work, and the majority of dogs are just companions. This has to some extent led to the watering down and destruction of the breed standard that many of us here value.

The Germans have tried to some extent with the SV to still keep the work ability of the GSD as an important part of breeding the dog. The Americans, have not (there is no working requirement to breed and register in the United Sates). Your way of thinking is exactly why there are breeders that are breeding GSD that look like GSD but don't have any kind of temperament that will allow them to work. The idea is to create a GSD that the "average joe" can handle. But why change what the GSD was meant to be just so that some guy in Anytown, USA can own one? Would a different breed not offer you the same enjoyment, loyalty, and love that the GSD does? It would...but people don't think that way. They want something that looks like a GSD, mostly because of the reputation the dog has gained from its working background...yet they don't want that working temperament. It's pretty ironic that they value the GSD because of what it is capable of, but yet they don't want the GSDs that are capable of that.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Well, Lykoz -
> The reason it's easier to find a "good" representation of a Chow Chow than a GSD is because of the tower of bs babble that people have built up around the GSD. No one can agree on the ideal so how do you think that any ideal can exist? The ideal is only an opinion. As well defined as the standard was created to be, it still leaves room for opinion. Everyone wants something different.
> 
> The condescending attitudes held by each country and each segment of people within who are controlling (or not controlling) the GSD lines are the very one's responsible for the mess. No country or people have a clean record of not putting money before the best interest of the breed. To try to blame one country over another is so common and so petty.
> ...


You are the one who wanted to know if its a good rep of the breed.

You cant just make up your own standards..
Irrelevant to my discussion with superG about AKC vs SV standards etc. The fact is there is no standard in the world where your dog may be considered a good rep of gsd.

That is the honest truth.

People cant hear this... They think of it in human terms... (How dare you say that about my child... etc.) But thats not the way the dog world works.

Has your dogs hips even been OFA certified? (You brought up health as important urself).

I dont know why you are arguing.
I used sport's stars just to put it into understandable ideas.

I love how in the dog world people are all 'experts'.. But then in human terms, they cant explain their ignorance away, because it is so blatantly obvious.
It was just a way to prove a point. I also used comparisons of lawyers passing the bar later on.

Also there are plenty of 'sports stars' who do very well in life outside of sport.

Actually your theory about 'Jock's' (As I believe you call them in the US) being stupid is ridiculous:
Sport at competitive level improves the academic performance of secondary education students -- ScienceDaily
That is besides the point however. Not to mention that many go through school on scholarships, are expected to pass with good GPA's or they are kicked out, whilst expected to train for hours a day.

The intellectual level, and quickness of thought and reaction of athletes at the top level is off the charts. There is such a thing as somatic intelligence too... (Ironically the same kind of intelligence dogs are privy to. - Not an insult to human athletes.. They are a lot smarter than dogs, goes without saying. But I had to say it, to you.)

I can argue until I am blue in the face...
When you ascribe to a group, you conform in some way, and don't just make up your own rules as you go along.

There is nothing wrong with not having a good rep of the breed. As I said most of us do not have that. But don't force it down the throats of the world.

As for USA going down the wrong path? No actually the USA has not gone down the wrong path... They are world leaders in the GSD, in multiple lines, and breeding of the dogs... The AKC may have got it wrong... But even they to be honest, what they are doing is ok...
They just should of called those dogs American Shepherds or whatever else they liked.

Americans get way too patriotic. My country is certainly not better. If I talk about my country, nobody even know's what is going on...

But dont let blind patriotism get in the way of discussing GSD's...
The AKC has huge international influence. The GSD does not 'belong' to them.
So we can say what we will.

Its like buying an android.. Putting on an Apple sticker.. And calling it apple.
The difference is there is no legal ramifications, or corporations owning the term GSD... This is in part the same reason this website can 'own' this url.

Anyways watever. You wont ever get this.
Genetic superiority might only be about 'nature'... But it can only be proven with the right 'nurture'.
The Sport jocks I am sure would get what I am saying in a heartbeat.
Thats the irony of it all.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi Scooby! Thanks for your comments. Yes my dog was bred for pet and not show or working. Both her parents are oversize. I have read the breed standard and am aware that Summer is well out. My only inquiry was to form some light conversation that might go like this;

Hi! Nice GS. Is it a purebred? (Yes, she is)
Boy, she's good sized for a female (yes, she's oversize for the breed standard)
Are you going to breed her? (no, she is not breeding quality, besides being oversize, she has some issues with her back line and rear angulation)
(Say - If your interested in learning more about the GSD there's mountains of good information available on the internet. I can give you a couple of good website addresses if you'd like)

So, that's what I was trying to put together. It was not my intention to put my pet quality pup up against the standard or all the arguments and opinions that rage on this breed. Just something that I can say when I'm out walking my dog and a neighbor makes conversation. My op said that I feared I had "mommy goggles" on and that's why I was posting the question. I'm glad I did!


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi Scooby! Thanks for your comments. Yes my dog was bred for pet and not show or working. Both her parents are oversize. I have read the breed standard and am aware that Summer is well out. My only inquiry was to form some light conversation that might go like this;
> 
> Hi! Nice GS. Is it a purebred? (Yes, she is)
> Boy, she's good sized for a female (yes, she's oversize for the breed standard)
> ...


Part of it is a way of definitions... Good rep of GSD breed is a LOADED CLASSIFICATION.

I think your dog is beautiful and probably lovely in temperament and everything else. I think mine is too. Neither as they are now would make the cut.
Thats just the blunt facts. We cant make our own street std's.

That is as nice as I can possibly put it. Included myself too, just so you don't think I am attacking your dog without self reflection.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Part of it is a way of definitions... Good rep of GSD breed is a LOADED CLASSIFICATION.
> 
> I think your dog is beautiful and probably lovely in temperament and everything else. I think mine is too. Neither as they are now would make the cut.
> Thats just the blunt facts. We cant make our own street std's.
> ...


I tried to be more specific in my op so as not to give anyone the impression I was holding her up to the standard as a qualifier for the standard. Apparently, you read that I was trying to establish a new standard for the breed??? All I was trying to do is have a few points of conversation with the neighbors as to general questions they may ask about her and why I won't be breeding her.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I tried to be more specific in my op so as not to give anyone the impression I was holding her up to the standard as a qualifier for the standard. Apparently, you read that I was trying to establish a new standard for the breed??? All I was trying to do is have a few points of conversation with the neighbors as to general questions they may ask about her and why I won't be breeding her.


What I say is, I respect what the GSD breed stands for. I believe in contributing to its success and not deteriorating the breed.

I have a role to play just like everybody else.
Some will actively make it better pro-actively. I will make it better by trying to support the best and most conscienscous breeders I can find, and by not diluting the Genetic pool by allowing my dog to breed without reaching the SV breed std. or surpassing it.

If I never do such things, I can not dream of breeding my dogs.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> Its about time people stopped piggy backing off the Working GSD's reputation and accepted some things.
> 
> Either your dog is bred to be what is intended of a GSD... Or it is not... If it is not.. that is fine... But please dont go calling them good rep. of the breed...


Who's "piggy backing" off the working lines??? All too many working lines GSDs never do a day's work....they are pets. The physical appearance of the dog looks closer to Max's dogs and that's about it.

The obfuscation to sprint speed is a non sequitor...as GSDs are not bred to be sprinters even though they can obtain speeds upwards of 30 mph but a Jack Russell Terrier would school it in this department.

I think I know where we are having difficulty in agreement. Your idea of the standard for GSDs is perhaps the original standard " Utility and intelligence "...with "structural efficiency". My idea of the standard is whatever the SV,AKC, UKC, CKC, WUSV etc. states that it is...I do not set the standard and most likely neither do you. For me to suggest the standard should mirror something from over a 100 years ago is not realistic. The standards for a GSD are all plainly described whether we like them or not. 

This comment of yours " Either your dog is bred to be what is intended of a GSD...Or it is not". Intended by what standard? Todays ? The original SV standard? I have a WGSL bred to today's SV standards therefore if the dog were to be judged it be would based on what an SV GSD is intended to be today. I am only concerned about today's standards as the majority of breeders are breeding to the current standard not some standard from over a century ago. Furthermore, let's look at the original standard set forth by Von Stephanitz, it never included tracking, formal obedience, and protection work. BUT, it only took him but a few years to change the standard by including these preferences as to what a GSD should be bred for....He changed the "intention of what a GSD should be " all by himself in a matter of years. Even Stephanitz "creation" was a bastardization of a true herding dog..I wonder if Horrand von Grafrath AKA Hector Linksrhein ever did a day of herding in it's life for real ?? Maybe...I don't know.


SuperG


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Who's "piggy backing" off the working lines??? All too many working lines GSDs never do a day's work....they are pets. The physical appearance of the dog looks closer to Max's dogs and that's about it.
> 
> The obfuscation to sprint speed is a non sequitor...as GSDs are not bred to be sprinters even though they can obtain speeds upwards of 30 mph but a Jack Russell Terrier would school it in this department.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you are saying.
Had a bit of a side argument with AKC not requiring and titling dogs.

The sprint comparison had nothing to do with GSD's and speed... It was just to show that you never know what a dog can do, unless it does it, and that there are not many ways to achieve that attribute on 4 legs. Irrelevant of species... Biomechanics and gravity produces similar results.

Dog speed was just a way to easily show that. I.e. you cant lie with a timer and a stopwatch. GSD's are a lot more complicated to identify.

I believe in evolution of principle... But people cant water down the 'utility' principle to the point of the GSD, being something else altogether.
Its ok for pet owners to do whatever they want.. But the 'working genes', must be passed on for the next generation's to have the wonderful GSD's we know and love.


----------



## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

An interesting anecdote regarding "quality"...

I took Heinz with me to a local beer garden. It was full of dogs, kids, food trucks, and drunk people. He was a superstar, just enjoyed chilling in the sun, sniffing the other dogs, and letting all the kids love all over him. 

Now, Heinz is a rescue of unknown origin (ROO?) but he's within breed standard height and color and looks like a pretty decent attempt at an American Show Line dog. Think RinTinTin. 

I got to talking with another member of our group, turns out he used to work for Inflight Kennels in WA and so was very familiar with showline GSDs. I asked for his honest opinion on Heinz's conformation, and he said, "Well, he's certainly not what the judges look for in the show ring (and his coat is awful), but his temperament? THAT is exactly what a GSD should be. He's great."

I'll take that assessment of quality any day!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So someone that worked for an American showline GSD kennel, with no idea about what they did there, and probably no other experience with any other type of GSD is now the expert on what a GSD temperament should be after seeing your dog hang out at a beer garden?

I guess the world is full of experts...


----------



## commonsenseandlogic (Aug 10, 2014)

This is purely by symmetry only with no professional knowledge. If I was walking down the street and saw your dog I would first think wow, really leggy and long ears. The same way if I saw a really tall human walking down the street. To be completely honest I would not say that's a great looking GSD. Sorry, but you asked.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

commonsenseandlogic said:


> This is purely by symmetry only with no professional knowledge. If I was walking down the street and saw your dog I would first think wow, really leggy and long ears. The same way if I saw a really tall human walking down the street. To be completely honest I would not say that's a great looking GSD. Sorry, but you asked.


Then maybe you shouldn't say anything? Not everyone likes black/tans or red/blacks or sables. The OPs dog is not a bad looking GSD at all. Maybe not the standard set by 10000 different people, but still not a bad looking dog at all.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Then maybe you shouldn't say anything? Not everyone likes black/tans or red/blacks or sables. The OPs dog is not a bad looking GSD at all. Maybe not the standard set by 10000 different people, but still not a bad looking dog at all.


Yup, you'll learn. You can't actually tell someone the truth if its negative. That's how this forum works.

If you have something positive to share, it's fine. But anything negative should be kept to yourself. It's all rainbows and butterflies around here. There's no objectivity allowed.


----------



## commonsenseandlogic (Aug 10, 2014)

Why would I not say anything? Because you don't like my answer? The reason I did reply was because people are either being nice (she didn't ask for niceties she asked for opinions) or they are writing thesis-like paragraphs. Please tell me why your comment is better than mine.


----------



## commonsenseandlogic (Aug 10, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Then maybe you shouldn't say anything? Not everyone likes black/tans or red/blacks or sables. The OPs dog is not a bad looking GSD at all. Maybe not the standard set by 10000 different people, but still not a bad looking dog at all.


So you are saying that you should not tell the truth because someone might not like it? Especially when that person asks a very specific question? Please tell me you only have dogs and not children. She was not trying to make friends, she specifically asked for opinions. Thank god your dogs can't understand English.


----------



## commonsenseandlogic (Aug 10, 2014)

I guess I need to find a better site to learn more about GSD's. It's crazy that someone asks a very specific question and people answer with love notes instead of an actual opinion. Then when people do give an actual opinion they get bashed by the next "expert".She specifically asked for an opinion knowing she would get different answers. Most of the people on here are not experts I am guessing. She specifically mentioned she would be talking to people she encountered on the street, not at Westminster.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

commonsenseandlogic said:


> I guess I need to find a better site to learn more about GSD's. It's crazy that someone asks a very specific question and people answer with love notes instead of an actual opinion. Then when people do give an actual opinion they get bashed by the next "expert".She specifically asked for an opinion knowing she would get different answers. Most of the people on here are not experts I am guessing. She specifically mentioned she would be talking to people she encountered on the street, not at Westminster.



Welcome. Don't worry about it, this is what happens when things are slow.

Just curious, with that screen name what are you doing here?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

There is a fine line between truth and just being mean. She asked about standards, not if her dog was good looking or not. A simple no your dog does not meet the standard would suffice. Telling someone their dog is not a great looking dog really is not cool, that is hurtful and uncalled for. But everyone carry on bashing this dog, which I believe is beautiful whether she meets the standard or not.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Yup, you'll learn. You can't actually tell someone the truth if its negative. That's how this forum works.
> 
> If you have something positive to share, it's fine. But anything negative should be kept to yourself. It's all rainbows and butterflies around here. There's no objectivity allowed.


Positive and negative in a classy way is not an issue. Rude and ignorant is uncalled for.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Anonymity in an arena of anonymity.....kind of.....


SuperG


----------



## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

I had a conversation yesterday not regarding dogs with my cousin who happens to be a professional martial arts fighter and one thing that came up was a discussion on Bruce Lee, who was the archetype for modern martial arts combat, much like how GSD people consider Horand to be the embodiment for today's breed. He did make this point that, if Bruce Lee were to fight today, he would lose for certain and the reason he gave was that in the 40 years Bruce has passed away, people have had better training, better nutrition and access to more scientific research.

Similarly, if you could take any good utility GSD now, and have him compete with Horand in any sport, I am pretty certain he would beat Horand in all disciplines. All because modern breeding will make any dog stronger. So, yes Max did create the standard, but his breed standard is certainly not high enough compared to today's breed. So any talk about Max is not really useful in today's world. That said, I still do believe that most national registries are deviating too far from Max's standards in ways undesirable. Working ability should be the benchmark for the standard, not show in a breed that was meant to herd and guard property, not enter beauty pageants.


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

llombardo said:


> She asked about standards, not if her dog was good looking or not.


Not true. She specifically asked about her dog and whether or not it was "a good representative of the breed". People have answered her honestly. Nobody has been mean. 
Sheilah


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

sit said:


> Not true. She specifically asked about her dog and whether or not it was "a good representative of the breed". People have answered her honestly. Nobody has been mean.
> Sheilah


She didn't ask if her dog was a good looking GSD. A dog doesn't have to be within the standard to be a nice looking dog. So her dog doesn't meet the standard, because of that it's not good looking?


----------



## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

commonsenseandlogic said:


> llombardo said:
> 
> 
> > Then maybe you shouldn't say anything? Not everyone likes black/tans or red/blacks or sables. The OPs dog is not a bad looking GSD at all. Maybe not the standard set by 10000 different people, but still not a bad looking dog at all.
> ...


Seriously? You are personally attacking her (Which by the way is against the rules). "Please tell me you only have dogs not children " "thank God your dog's don't understand English." 

She certainly didn't ask you for your opinion on whether or not she should have any children. Share your opinion on the dog, fine. But don't tell someone you don't even know, that they are unfit to reproduce.


----------



## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

martemchik said:


> So someone that worked for an American showline GSD kennel, with no idea about what they did there, and probably no other experience with any other type of GSD is now the expert on what a GSD temperament should be after seeing your dog hang out at a beer garden?
> 
> I guess the world is full of experts...


Like I said, anecdote. (and he did handle the dog for a while, it wasn't exactly a 2 minute observation). He had more experience with the breed than I did, so I asked out of curiosity. And I was specifically interested in feedback from an ASL person as it's pretty clear my dog is about as far from working line as its possible to get. 

I'm pretty sure the ex-policewoman down the street who owns an absolutely stunning, magnificently built, and highly protective West German dog would have a different opinion. Then again, she's commented (unprompted) several times how nice my dog is, so maybe not.....


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I am the original poster. How ya' all doin' tonight:laugh:


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> I am the original poster. How ya' all doin' tonight:laugh:


Doing good, I was in your neck of the woods on Saturday, rain, rain, rain....


----------



## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi Scooby! Thanks for your comments. Yes my dog was bred for pet and not show or working. Both her parents are oversize. I have read the breed standard and am aware that Summer is well out. My only inquiry was to form some light conversation that might go like this;
> 
> Hi! Nice GS. Is it a purebred? (Yes, she is)
> Boy, she's good sized for a female (yes, she's oversize for the breed standard)
> ...


I realized over the past few years that people probably aren't going to understand or plain don't care about standards, I've seen washed out saddles that are being touted as "rare" because some breeder sold them as "rare". 
We see all the time about oversized being "old fashioned" yet there's no evidence that is true at all! 
We all see our dogs as perfect, that's how it should be! They are all lovely in our eyes and they are all lovely simply because they are dogs :wub:


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hey Nigel! 

I had a heck of a time trying to entertain Summer on that rainy day Sat! I've just had the back door open so she could come or go all day long, all week and she freaked yesterday when the house was closed up for the rain.

I'm pretty amazed how this post blew up. It appears that no one read the op or subsequent posts that even explained things enough that Lokoz understood!

So somebody does not want me to have children? That B__! Well, I'm 60 so I don't think I will have any just to spite her!lol


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks Scooby!

I want you to know that the answer you gave me was exactly what I was looking for. One other poster (somewhere around page 2 with photos) was the other that responded to my question. I had no idea this would spark such furious responses. That's their problem, not mine or Summers.

If you will read my response as to what i will do in response to yours and one other comment I think you will be happy, (please read back a page or two) I thank you and so do my neighbors!


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Yea, I hear you. I have a question for you if that's ok? My pup just turned 9 months old. You noticed a bump or roach in her backline and I've seen it off and on myself but things seem to come and go with her body ever 2 weeks or so. Is there any chance that between 9-12 mos that her backline may settle out and not have the bump?

You can tell me anything, for some reason, based on your comments, I trust you more than anyone else that's posted here, and I got no dog in a fight.... just need an eye on what I got for the next decade or so...lol Thanks!


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, I hear you. I have a question for you if that's ok? My pup just turned 9 months old. You noticed a bump or roach in her backline and I've seen it off and on myself but things seem to come and go with her body ever 2 weeks or so. Is there any chance that between 9-12 mos that her backline may settle out and not have the bump?
> 
> You can tell me anything, for some reason, based on your comments, I trust you more than anyone else that's posted here, and I got no dog in a fight.... just need an eye on what I got for the next decade or so...lol Thanks!


Another reason your dog can not be a good rep of breed yet is simply age.. Not even ofa hip certified...

Health not checked officially.

I hope you absorbed something rather than just fishing for compliments.

You still don't get it.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

nezzz said:


> I had a conversation yesterday not regarding dogs with my cousin who happens to be a professional martial arts fighter and one thing that came up was a discussion on Bruce Lee, who was the archetype for modern martial arts combat, much like how GSD people consider Horand to be the embodiment for today's breed. He did make this point that, if Bruce Lee were to fight today, he would lose for certain and the reason he gave was that in the 40 years Bruce has passed away, people have had better training, better nutrition and access to more scientific research.
> 
> Similarly, if you could take any good utility GSD now, and have him compete with Horand in any sport, I am pretty certain he would beat Horand in all disciplines. All because modern breeding will make any dog stronger. So, yes Max did create the standard, but his breed standard is certainly not high enough compared to today's breed. So any talk about Max is not really useful in today's world. That said, I still do believe that most national registries are deviating too far from Max's standards in ways undesirable. Working ability should be the benchmark for the standard, not show in a breed that was meant to herd and guard property, not enter beauty pageants.


All true...

But had Bruce lee lived today he would have had better training and nutrition. Not to mention some of Bruce lee's biggest contributions to the martial arts were actually through his philosophy of thinking as: no way as the way. Most mma guys believe even back then guys like gene lebell would have smashed him easily.

Same applies to the dogs. They would have received superior training.

Also again the successful gsd's doing those tasks are a different breed to American show lines. A show line would not have done well even back then...
An American showline is like putting a current tai chi martial artist in the cage... No chance... Weather it's againt Bruce lee.. Royce Gracie or Ronda rousey... (Male or female)... The male tai chi practitioner as a male would lose to athletes of yesteryear and of today.

Observations made without taking weight into account. It's all hypothetical anyways.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> All true...
> 
> But had Bruce lee lived today he would have had better training and nutrition. Not to mention some of Bruce lee's biggest contributions to the martial arts were actually through his philosophy of thinking as: no way as the way. Most mma guys believe even back then guys like gene lebell would have smashed him easily.
> 
> ...


Hey Lykoz

Before you just spam this topic up again. Why don't you just start your own? You jump in to the middle of any topic that has postings showing. Go Away


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Another reason your dog can not be a good rep of breed yet is simply age.. Not even ofa hip certified...
> 
> Health not checked officially.
> 
> ...


You still don't get it Lykoz. You jumped into the middle of conversations you knew nothing about, you started accusing the USA of all sorts of wrongs against the GSD, and - you smart bunny-never asked how old my pup was while you were so busy condemning and demanding OFA's.

This is not the 5th, not the 15th time you have made a big fat plunge into a conversation pool you knew nothing about and attempt to take over. Start your own topics, quit flopping into others.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Lykoz said:
> 
> 
> > Another reason your dog can not be a good rep of breed yet is simply age.. Not even ofa hip certified...
> ...


Not the USA.. American show lines..Just saying there is a difference.. It just happens that it has the word America attached to it..

That is like saying McDonald's represents the quality of all us burgers.
I've personally eaten amazing burgers in the usa...


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Not the USA.. American show lines..Just saying there is a difference.. It just happens that it has the word America attached to it..
> 
> That is like saying McDonald's represents the quality of all us burgers.
> I've personally eaten amazing burgers in the usa...


NOBODY CARES what your talking about! We are not here to debate you. This post had a topic which we are trying to stay with.

FOR THE THIRD TIME! GO AWAY! START YOUR OWN TOPIC AND STOP SPAMMING EVERY TOPIC ON THE BOARD.


----------



## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, I hear you. I have a question for you if that's ok? My pup just turned 9 months old. You noticed a bump or roach in her backline and I've seen it off and on myself but things seem to come and go with her body ever 2 weeks or so. Is there any chance that between 9-12 mos that her backline may settle out and not have the bump?
> 
> You can tell me anything, for some reason, based on your comments, I trust you more than anyone else that's posted here, and I got no dog in a fight.... just need an eye on what I got for the next decade or so...lol Thanks!


They definitely go through a lot of changes, it's hard to say for sure how things will end up.

The "bump" in her topline you're speaking of. Is this the same uneven topline as in the first pictures you posted? If so, it looks to be from her lack of rear angulation right now. And rear angulation does tend to improve with age. My mixed breed boy went through a really weird stage with that.

Here he is in his ugly stage at 1 year old









But he developed nicely for a mixed breed, he's around 3 years old here.










He does have a slight roach to his spine, although it is mild and hard to tell in the last picture. A mild roach is not a bad thing, it gives a dog more spring when in a full gallop. But it does use up more energy. (Think Greyhound and their very noticeable roach, versus huskies/malamutes bred for endurance running and their straight backs.)


Edit: And sorry, wasn't sure who this was directed to.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Cschmidt88 said:


> They definitely go through a lot of changes, it's hard to say for sure how things will end up.
> 
> The "bump" in her topline you're speaking of. Is this the same uneven topline as in the first pictures you posted? If so, it looks to be from her lack of rear angulation right now. And rear angulation does tend to improve with age. My mixed breed boy went through a really weird stage with that.
> 
> ...


Oh Thank You! Man, what a difference in the before and after pict. I thought I read here several months ago that a slight rise on a developing pups back usually corrects when they reach adulthood. Your picts sure show that. I have something to look forward to. Sorry, my mean stuff is just directed at a site blowfly that I'm trying to swat.

Thank you so much for the picts. I will sleep happy tonight


----------



## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Hi Stonevintage! Re changes as they grow - my girl Frankie grew very awkwardly. One day her withers would be higher than her back end, then a day or two later her back end would be higher (similar to your girl). She'd go back and forth, get really leggy, even out again, etc. Our new pup seems to grow a lot more evenly. Anyway, she turned out quite beautiful once she finished growing (in my eyes, anyway!). She could use a bit more angulation in the rear, but she's still very nice looking. It's hard to tell in the pic - her withers are a bit higher than her back end, and she doesn't have a roach.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks McWeagle! More good news. She has a chance. I would hate to have her spend the rest of her life feeling like she's walking downhill all the time.

You do have beautiful pups. I love the way the black beauties just shine in the sun.


----------



## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks McWeagle! More good news. She has a chance. *I would hate to have her spend the rest of her life feeling like she's walking downhill all the time*.


Lol!! Yeah, the black coats are so nice and shiny. Makes it tough to takes pictures with a flash though - the shine reeeeaaaaalllllyyyy comes through.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

sunsets said:


> Like I said, anecdote. (and he did handle the dog for a while, it wasn't exactly a 2 minute observation). He had more experience with the breed than I did, so I asked out of curiosity. And I was specifically interested in feedback from an ASL person as it's pretty clear my dog is about as far from working line as its possible to get.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the ex-policewoman down the street who owns an absolutely stunning, magnificently built, and highly protective West German dog would have a different opinion. Then again, she's commented (unprompted) several times how nice my dog is, so maybe not.....


Lol...do you really expect someone to tell you to your face that your dog is anything but "nice"?

Come on people...I've seen tons of ugly dogs on the street and I'll always tell people they are cute or pretty.

I also am sure you have a nice dog, doesn't mean its a great representative of the breed.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> She didn't ask if her dog was a good looking GSD. A dog doesn't have to be within the standard to be a nice looking dog. So her dog doesn't meet the standard, because of that it's not good looking?


Have you ever told anyone their dog is ugly? Just wondering.

It's pretty awkward to tell someone their dog is a POS or ugly, and even when they ask for it and other people's opinions about it, when those people are truthful, they get attacked over it. So what's the point of even asking such a question if we're not allowed to be objective or truthful due to the pressures of society or in this case the forum and people like you who want to make people feel bad for sharing their opinion.


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Have you ever told anyone their dog is ugly? Just wondering.
> 
> It's pretty awkward to tell someone their dog is a POS or ugly, and even when they ask for it and other people's opinions about it, when those people are truthful, they get attacked over it. So what's the point of even asking such a question if we're not allowed to be objective or truthful due to the pressures of society or in this case the forum and people like you who want to make people feel bad for sharing their opinion.


Yep I agree.

However I find beauty in all dogs.
They all have a unique story and each their own nice characteristics.

I even love my hip dysplastic dog because of its perseverance, and what it may go through as it gets older. I feel she is a tough dog.
Going around saying however a dog is a good rep of the breed without any considerations to the basic standards of each line is however not on. As we both agree...


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Have you ever told anyone their dog is ugly? Just wondering.
> 
> It's pretty awkward to tell someone their dog is a POS or ugly, and even when they ask for it and other people's opinions about it, when those people are truthful, they get attacked over it. So what's the point of even asking such a question if we're not allowed to be objective or truthful due to the pressures of society or in this case the forum and people like you who want to make people feel bad for sharing their opinion.


Nope. I don't believe that any dog is ugly, just very ugly people. And I have no problem telling a person they are ugly. It's not what is on the outside that makes one ugly.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Nope. I don't believe that any dog is ugly, just very ugly people. And I have no problem telling a person they are ugly. It's not what is on the outside that makes one ugly.


So if someone doesn't have the same belief as you...that no dog is ugly...and they voice their opinion, they're automatically an ugly person? Interesting that you would judge someone like that just because they have a different opinion than you.

If you ask for an objective opinion...especially about something like a dog...you should be prepared to get answers that you don't like. Other people should not pressure others to keep their mouths shut just because they don't like those opinions. This doesn't lead to open and forward thinking dialogue, just people getting defensive when they feel attacked because they have a differing opinion.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> So if someone doesn't have the same belief as you...that no dog is ugly...and they voice their opinion, they're automatically an ugly person? Interesting that you would judge someone like that just because they have a different opinion than you.
> 
> If you ask for an objective opinion...especially about something like a dog...you should be prepared to get answers that you don't like. Other people should not pressure others to keep their mouths shut just because they don't like those opinions. This doesn't lead to open and forward thinking dialogue, just people getting defensive when they feel attacked because they have a differing opinion.


What a way to turn words around. A+ for effort. I never called anyone ugly for not believing the same thing as I. You asked if I ever told anyone their dog was ugly. I said no, I don't believe any dog is ugly, just people can be ugly. Nice try though.


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm not sure how commenting on beauty or lack of relates to the REAL question that was asked .... 

_Is my dog a good representative of the breed, the normal, outside of specialty breeding for the show ring or agility?_

There were some different interpretations of the question when really it was a very simple one. Some may have wanted to give an explanation but the answer is really just yes ... or no.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think Joe the Plumber has a clue about specific physical characteristics of the GSD, nor do they truly care. If they are looking for information on the breed, they are looking for behavioral traits and not sloping backs or extended hocks. They might question colors or general appearance, but not faults within the OP's dog.


----------

