# Breeders Pay for X-Rays?



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I have noooooooo idea why I just had this random question. It's not like we're anywhere CLOSE to getting another non-foster dog and it would likely not be from a breeder...

But anyhoo. Are there instances when it's in a breeder's interest to have xrays done of their dog's offspring if the owner isn't interested in doing it? Like perhaps a new breeder trying to show that good hips and elbows run in the family?


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes. You cannot know what you are producing if you aren't looking at your previous offspring. If I have a puppy owner who has zero interest in xraying, but I know they are going to spay or nueter, I have offered to pay the difference to try and entice them into having it done. It doesn't cost that much since they are already "under", but many times owners just don't "think of it" until I bring it up.

As a breeder, I could never afford to offer to pay for the xrays entirely. And also, trying to get people to find a QUALIFIED vet to take the xrays can also be problematic.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

Caleb's breeder is a vet. She offered to do the xrays at ~1 yr for us if we bring him over to her - just so she would know how hips and elbows are doing. It also gives her a chance to see his development. Although I also keep in touch and send her pictures periodically.


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

As an incentive, Nico's breeder offered to pay $100 towards any OFA or PennHip testing. She requires all pet puppies to have their hips done by 14 months and all show/breeding prospects to get more in-depth health testing done and results sent to her. That's the only way she can see what she's really breeding. 

Though with her screening measures, I don't think this incentive was necessary for any of the owners to get them motivated to do so.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My breeder very much encourages this. She helps us get it done (her husband has his own clinic, he was on the OFA panel and did research for PennHIP) and helps us with all the paperwork. However I would never ask or expect the breeder to cover the cost. Just helping get it done by a qualified person and making sure they are submitted correctly is a big favor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, I considered it. If I could get five pups from a litter, I could get a litter rate for the hip elbow cardiac thyroid and vWd. 

Unfortunately, my dogs do not all live within a 100 mile radius of this vet. And the chances are, if I could line up five owners to show, two or three would not make it on the day and time, and I would be stuck with a full bill for the remaining pups. 

At some point the breeder will not be able to buy dog food if they pay for every last thing. Yes we do have an interest, but we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise the puppies will be so far beyond anyone's price range that they will not be sold.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My breeder encourages us to do xrays (hips and elbows) at 2 years old (would like prelims too - have appt. for Stark in March - cancelled our one in Jan.) and has even stated in our contract that she will pay any fees that come up when sending in our forms. We have to pay for the actual xrays though.

I know the first litter out of the same sire and dam as Stark had 2 excellents and a good while 2 others had a passing OVC.

Stark will be getting his done and I know of 3 other littermates of his who have plans to get theirs done as well.

I wouldn't ask my breeder or expect her to pay for these things and even though she is offering to pay for the fees to send in the paperwork/xrays, I would never allow it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Interesting. I'm not sure I've ever seen it directly discussed (or maybe I've just missed the threads). Like I said...NO idea where the question came from.

And selzer, I couldn't tell from your post about "drawing the line somewhere", but I certainly didn't mean to imply that an owner was in some way looking to weasel out services from their dog's breeder by not having it done themselves. It's just a lot of people--it seems-- wouldn't really see the need if the dog is not going to be bred.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

If the dog isn't going to be bred, then chances are they will be spayed or nuetered. Once the dog is sedated for surgery, it is only a very small amount of $ to xray the hips and elbows while they are at it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We actually have in our contract that the new owner is required to submit hip and elbow x-rays for certification once the dog is old enough. We used to just ask people to do it, and most would anyway once they understood why we requested it, but we then just went to making it a requirement. We don't pay for it, though if a situation arose where the person just couldn't afford it, we'd certainly try to work something out. And of course we'll always try to help them find the right vet to do it, and have a couple vets in particular that we recommend to local customers.

As breeders, we need this information so we can evaluate what we are producing. I also think it is important from a dog welfare standpoint. One can't assume that because a dog doesn't show signs or symptoms of HD or ED that the joints are fine. X-ray evaluation is the only way to know for sure. And if there is a problem, the sooner it is identified and the sooner any changes can be made in the dog's lifestyle (proper weight and exercise, joint supplements, etc..) the better the outcome in terms of reducing the risk of the dog experiencing symptoms later in life and managing the condition without surgery. And if the owner plans to participate in any activities that are physicaly taxing, like agility or SchH, for the dog's sake they should make sure the dog is physically up to the task and that participating in those activities won't have negative effects, before pursuing them.

As far as sedation, while there is of course some risk I think it's very, very minimal. Especially since the dogs are just sedated, not fully anesthetized. And of course it is possible to get x-rays done without sedation too if that is a major worry for the owner.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just another thought...

Really cost doesn't seem to be a worry for people. They either understand why we want them to x-ray and agree with it and do it, or they don't. We've had a couple customers promise they'd do official OFAs, but the dogs are now 4-5 years old and never did get official OFAs. They did do prelims before pursuing SchH because they did understand that was important to make sure the dog was ok for the work, so at least we have that info. But despite them saying for years that they'd do OFAs, they never did. In those cases I DID offer to pay for it. Even though I know it's not a money issue with these people, I thought that might finally get offical OFAs done, but they didn't take me up on the offer. So obviously it's not a question of money, but rather they just didn't see the point. Hence why we now require it in our contract.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay so Chris, after reading your post I went and took a look at my contract and it actually states that I have to do hip and elbow x-rays before the age of 3 years.

I plan on doing Prelims soon and of course later do and sumbitt "formal" xrays so I never really read through that section of my contact, also I am in close contact with my breeder (weekly.. lol) and she knows my intentions with Stark (health clearances & title - NO BREEDING.. lol).

I think it's good for breeders to requests this, or put it in their contacts, it lets them know what they are producing.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I should also mention, as a potential owner I would want a breeder who cares that much about what she/he is producing enough to state that in the contact.

I want a breeder who is breeding their dogs who really cares for the breed and wants to ensure that what they are producing is of the "highest quality". If that makes sense.

This is just another one of those things that to me makes me think "reptuable/great breeder".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Agreed! It really helps the breeder and stud owner. It seems that the owner of stud dogs tend to get a pass on responsiblity and the breeder has it left on their shoulders! Off topic, sorry!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: elisabeth_00117I should also mention, as a potential owner I would want a breeder who cares that much about what she/he is producing enough to state that in the contact.
> 
> I want a breeder who is breeding their dogs who really cares for the breed and wants to ensure that what they are producing is of the "highest quality". If that makes sense.
> 
> This is just another one of those things that to me makes me think "reptuable/great breeder".


Oh, I totally I agree there! I'm totally the person that gets a warm and fuzzy feeling from a 22-page questionarre and strict contacts. Before we decided 100% on going the rescue route and getting into rescue, we emailed a few breeders these long detailed emails and some only wrote back "deposit is $____ and due by ____." UGH.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I guess I am not a "reputable/great breeder." I do not put anything in my contract that I cannot enforce. 

So Chris, what do you do if one of your puppy buyers does not x-ray and submit to OFA? Do you demand your puppy back? Do you threaten legal action? You would have to produce a lot of puppies to have the means to enforce every minor contract issue. 

My contract says that I will replace the puppy so long as the x-rays are submitted to OFA by two years from the purchase date, and if the dog does not pass, then the dog is spayed/neutered and I have evidence of this.

If I could ever get a litter out of bitch before she is four years old, MAYBE I could make a breeding decision based on OFA results of previous litters. As it is, Babs and Jenna will be retired before their progeny will have ofas back. I will check Milla and Ninja because I want to know when they reach two, even though I do not intend to breed them, nor do I intend to repeat the breeding. 

And this brings us to prelims or penn hips. This could help breeding decisions if you trust the results vs the age.

Money does matter. I had Heidi, Whitney, and Tori done together, hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, and Von Wilbrand's Disease. I got an estimate of approximately $1200. I went to pay the bill and it was over $1800. I stood there and discussed the estimate, and this and that and they consulted the vet and we wheeled and dealed, and they forgot microchipping in the estimate, so I ended up paying over $1300 for the day. And the costs are only increasing. 

In my next life I am coming back as a well-to-do shepherd owner/breeder. But for now, I am going to stick to doing health testing on my own dogs, and I will not put clauses in my contract that I might need to enforce some day. My contract is basically for the puppy buyers, in they need to give the pup up, or if there is something wrong with the pup, what I agree to do. 

It does not outline what their responsibilities are. I have a few information pages that make suggestions about training and care.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI guess I am not a "reputable/great breeder." I do not put anything in my contract that I cannot enforce.
> 
> So Chris, what do you do if one of your puppy buyers does not x-ray and submit to OFA? Do you demand your puppy back? Do you threaten legal action? You would have to produce a lot of puppies to have the means to enforce every minor contract issue.


Not Chris, but a puppy buyer from Wildhaus. I bought my pup with a limited registration.
If I don't fullfill the requirement in the contract then my pup will not get full registration at 2 yrs old. 

IMO, Sue you ARE a responsible breeder


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thanks, that is certainly one way to do it. I have sold some pups on limited with the understanding that I can change it to full in the future. 

I have not outlined a number of requirements, but left it to my discretion.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI guess I am not a "reputable/great breeder."


Well, that's definitely putting words into someone's mouth









I personally like strict contracts and a lot of questions...didn't specificially say that hip and elboz xray was a requirement there. 

You care where your dogs go and want them in the best home possible, and that makes a good breeder. For me PERSONALLY, I like it when someone asks me more questions than I ask them....but that's a personal opinion and doesn't put you on either side.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cost is definitely a concern for me - I think the x-rays were $240, and that was with Halo already under anesthesia for her spay. There would be additional costs for sedating her as a stand-alone procedure. The OFA fee itself was minimal. I had prelims done for Keefer that were read by the consulting radiologist rather than sending them in to OFA, and I meant to do OFAs too once he was over 2 years old, but I never got around to it. I've spent so much in vet bills in the last few years that it hasn't been a priority, and now, at almost 4-1/2, I don't know that I'll bother. His elbows were normal and his hips were good - he was 15 months old at the time. 

According to the OFA: 



> Quote:There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).


Halo's were also good, (she was 13-1/2 months old), I did send them to the OFA and the results are published on the site. Since I did it for me, and as info for the breeder, I don't know if I'll bother having her re-done because the cost is significant and the chances are slim that there will be any significant change. "Good" is good enough for me! 

I would never expect the breeder to pay for x-rays.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

A breeder can include x-rays at a certain age as part of the purchase agreement with the puppy buyer. I honestly don't know much about the ins and outs of breeder's contracts, but I only know of one breeder who includes an x-ray agreement for all puppies - pet or show.

She didn't make me sign anything since she gave me Kelly as a gift, but she did requet that I get him x-rayed when I had him neutered which I was more than happy to do. Other than this (and when I had Slider OFA'ed), I've only gotten diagnostic hip x-rays on the Hooligans.


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