# Thoughts on Personal Protection Training?



## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

All,

I have an 8 month old DDR shepherd who is finally starting to lose the puppy and settle into his adult brain. (well, sometimes anyway  ) We chose DDR specifically for the protection aspect (and the intimidating look) and the breeder advised that these dogs really aren't mature enough for PPD training until at least 7 months - 1 year, which I can totally understand and agree with. Now that he finally has an attention span, the obedience training is kicking in full force and he's a gem to work with. He learns super fast and is pretty eager to please. I figure in another 2-3 months he will be where I want him to be obedience wise, and once we get there I'm considering whether I want to take that further.

He does great with the family now but also has a "serious" mode in that he will go on patrol or alert with things he doesn't know - but doesn't generally freak out. We were expecting this to some extent but seeing it in action is pretty inspiring. He just makes you feel safe  He is fairly polite on a leash now although he still has some reactivity to other dogs, but that is improving. 

Would PPD strengthen and hone those protective instincts that are already there? Are there negatives? Has anyone gone through this training with their dog and do you feel it was beneficial (to you, the dog, family etc)?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Just be aware who you're dealing with. A lot of personal protection trainers will take a weak dog throw him into defense and tell you he's a natural. By the time you get done you have a liability not a PP dog. **** if they don't know what they're doing they can ruin a good dog.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

NewtoK9 said:


> All,
> 
> I have an 8 month old DDR shepherd who is finally starting to lose the puppy and settle into his adult brain. (well, sometimes anyway
> 
> ...


 do you have a pedigree to share?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If he’s true DDR dog, I️ wouldn’t even think about Protection training until 2-3 years of age. Let him grow up.


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback. I have heard folks say the DDR dogs are slower to mature. I can see this...this dog has definitely come with a learning curve that research just can't prepare you for. We're learning as we go so going slow is a good thing! It feels like such a relief to be out of the bitey face stage, though. He is pretty much fearless - you can challenge him and he will challenge right back, and guns, fireworks, cars, big trucks, sirens, birds, kids, cats, bikes, joggers, etc...very little except other dogs gets him excited. 

Really, I just want to explore options and see what the potential is. It may be that PPD training is not right for either of us, I don't know. My goal is not to have a scary dog no one can touch but rather a companion dog that will do what needs doing in the moment. I wouldn't get a gun for self-defense and not practice with it, so it seems to make sense to want to hone some of those protective aspects. 

Looking at pedigrees makes me a bit cross-eyed, to be honest. This breeder seems to have some of his dogs in PDB and some not. I don't know why that is - unless maybe he is waiting to see what kinds of pups their breedings produce before registering them? Or maybe it just takes awhile? When I was researching the breeding it seemed to me that the pedigrees both have dogs with strong working lines, solid health and stable temperments. What else should I be looking at in those lines to understand the protection aspects better?

I have also met both my dog's parents. The dam is confident and approachable. Completely at ease around kids, very laid back. The sire was all business. He was originally sold to a family as a companion dog and was then returned to the breeder around 2 or 3 yrs old when the owners divorced. The breeder said he had been started on PPD training when the owners relinquished him and he was going to continue working with him. At this point, I would say my boy has an even balance between those personalities, but based on what I'm hearing it seems like I may not really know that until he's more mature.


For pedigrees, this is what I know: 
Mom is out of Adalrick Von Jagermeister and Gigante's Notty Monkey
Adalrick Von Jagermeister
Search - Gigante's Notty monkey

Dad is out of Mein Von Schone Stadt and Adala Von Jagermeister
Mein von Schone Stadt
Adala Von Jagermeister


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

_This breeder seems to have some of his dogs in PDB and some not. I don't know why that is - unless maybe he is waiting to see what kinds of pups their breedings produce before registering them? _

The PDB is NOT an official registry. It is strictly a volunteer registry, in which dog owners can enter their own dogs, and find out about their pedigrees. It is run and maintained by volunteers. Needless to say, it is far from complete. The owner of the database has several moderators who try their best to make sure the information entered is accurate.

However, it's a great alternative to having to shell out your hard-earned money to AKC (or whatever other registry your dog is with) to get this information!

Yes, DDR dogs mature late.
Yes, they have a reputation for being more serious and being able to protect for real. I saw on another dog board recently where someone with a dog from DDR lines came home to find the front entrance to their house liberally smeared with blood. The dog was unharmed, but also covered in blood. She had foiled a break-in while her owners were out.

They may not be the best sport dogs, though (see link I sent you.)


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I only clicked on the adalrick von jagermeister link and it looks like there's some show dogs in there. I only guess this based on the names such as "war cry's crystal". A quick search for von jagermeister brings you to a site for a kennel called von jagermeister haus who says her dogs help police find and hold armed robbers with no training and that they've been in movies. The website for war cry german shepherds also points out the movies their dogs have been in and lists their breeding accomplishments. I don't recall exactly but they've only had like 3 sch 1 and 2 sch 2/3 ea. Not much working accomplishment for someone breeding since 1986. But they do have a long list of movies/tv shows/commercials that feauture their dogs. All this is to say I think your breeder may be feeding you a line. In all my talks with ddr owners and pedigree experts and the like on here - I've never once heard of someone saying the dog is ready for ppd at 7 months old. My pup is 7 months old and isn't close to ready for ppd training. More along the lines of what youve heard from Cliff earlier. 2-3 years for these dogs to mature. 

Who is the breeder? Maybe we can get a better sense of the breeding by knowing who the actual sire and dam are.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

I thought pedigrees for DDR were followed by the sire line. Von Jagermeister is the dam line of Adalrick


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

There's ddr dogs on both dam and sire side. The concerning part is the show dogs in there. No ppd breeder is going to do that and I think the breeder is just feeding him a line. Cdwoodxox had a valuable warning for OP and I think they breezed right over it.


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> I only clicked on the adalrick von jagermeister link and it looks like there's some show dogs in there. I only guess this based on the names such as "war cry's crystal". A quick search for von jagermeister brings you to a site for a kennel called von jagermeister haus who says her dogs help police find and hold armed robbers with no training and that they've been in movies. The website for war cry german shepherds also points out the movies their dogs have been in and lists their breeding accomplishments. I don't recall exactly but they've only had like 3 sch 1 and 2 sch 2/3 ea. Not much working accomplishment for someone breeding since 1986. But they do have a long list of movies/tv shows/commercials that feauture their dogs. All this is to say I think your breeder may be feeding you a line. In all my talks with ddr owners and pedigree experts and the like on here - I've never once heard of someone saying the dog is ready for ppd at 7 months old. My pup is 7 months old and isn't close to ready for ppd training. More along the lines of what youve heard from Cliff earlier. 2-3 years for these dogs to mature.
> 
> Who is the breeder? Maybe we can get a better sense of the breeding by knowing who the actual sire and dam are.


The breeder is JD Gigante of Gigante's K9. The sire is Ranger and the Dam, Kira. Here's a link to the pairing with (maybe?) more info. Gigante K9 Breeding Ranger & Kira 2017



> Yes, they have a reputation for being more serious and being able to protect for real. I saw on another dog board recently where someone with a dog from DDR lines came home to find the front entrance to their house liberally smeared with blood. The dog was unharmed, but also covered in blood. She had foiled a break-in while her owners were out.
> 
> They may not be the best sport dogs, though (see link I sent you.)


Thanks, Sunsilver. I did read the link and there was some helpful info there. It was unfortunate that the person in that link decided to relinquish their dog but at least they understood their limitations. That's exactly what we're trying to do here too and the idea of "Protect for real" - and the random intruder situation you describe - is what I am interested in. Maybe I don't need to train that because these dogs have a built-in drive for that. Or maybe some of them do and some of them don't and you just don't know until you're faced with that situation. And as cdwoodcox pointed out I don't want to ruin my dog by forcing him into training for something he's not suited for. But I'd like to know either way - if he is going to back down in a fight and I'm expecting him to help defend me or my family, that seems like an important thing to be aware of, no? 

From what I'm hearing it sounds like I shouldn't really take any approach in PPD training for another year or two and then maybe solicit a couple of experienced trainers to evaluate his abilities before starting any training program?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Not to derail the thread - but is it just me or is that a lot of inbreeding? Is that common for DDR lines?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

NewtoK9 said:


> From what I'm hearing it sounds like I shouldn't really take any approach in PPD training for another year or two and then maybe solicit a couple of experienced trainers to evaluate his abilities before starting any training program?


Heck, NO!! Just don't start PPD dog training! EVERY dog needs training from an early age to make it a good canine citizen! Especially a dog that has the genetics to be protective - you need to get a handle on obedience early on to make sure he is safe around strangers. You don't want him deciding for himself who you need to be protected from! He needs to know that you are in charge.

Since you plan to do possibly do protection training, I think your best bet would be to join a schutzhund club, and work on you BH with him. That's just basic obedience. You can also learn to track with him. Just tell them you're not interested in doing protection until he's older.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I agree with sunsilver. Train him but just hold off on the bite work until he's mature enough for it. My breeder recommends I wait until my pup is 16 months old before I start bite work. That's what she does and in the meantime she does agility, obedience, and whatever else. We've been doing obedience and I've been working on tracking at home thanks to the recommendations from other users here. I'm also going to look into some herding for fun in the meantime.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

NewtoK9 said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> > I only clicked on the adalrick von jagermeister link and it looks like there's some show dogs in there. I only guess this based on the names such as "war cry's crystal". A quick search for von jagermeister brings you to a site for a kennel called von jagermeister haus who says her dogs help police find and hold armed robbers with no training and that they've been in movies. The website for war cry german shepherds also points out the movies their dogs have been in and lists their breeding accomplishments. I don't recall exactly but they've only had like 3 sch 1 and 2 sch 2/3 ea. Not much working accomplishment for someone breeding since 1986. But they do have a long list of movies/tv shows/commercials that feauture their dogs. All this is to say I think your breeder may be feeding you a line. In all my talks with ddr owners and pedigree experts and the like on here - I've never once heard of someone saying the dog is ready for ppd at 7 months old. My pup is 7 months old and isn't close to ready for ppd training. More along the lines of what youve heard from Cliff earlier. 2-3 years for these dogs to mature.
> ...


 so I was looking at the pedigree that you linked. Oddly enough the breeder says giagante's ranger x gigante's kira but the pedigree shows ranger x gigante's brook. 

Based on what you said earlier I was able to find a full sibling to ranger (gigante's karma) and a dog with the same genetics as the mom based on notty monkey x adalrick von jagermeister (gigante's repercussions). I did a mating outcome which will give you your pups genetics in an interactive pedigree. As long as those sire/dam combinations you gave earlier are accurate than this is your pups pedigree. Hopefully you'll get more opinions on it this way 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=2573201&mother=2581274


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The genetics of your dog is DDR. Actually, it is from old DDR lines as opposed to the more recent lines that you frequently see today. Maybe some of the posters here will give you some insights into these lines....if not send me a pm.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Do you have to wait till they're 2 or 3 to get those pics of them in the mountains and snow? If I had one, I know I'd have a hard time waiting to take advantage of those elusive masculine traits such as pronounced masculinity.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Your dog's genetics are overwhelmingly DDR. Yes, there are a couple of questionable pet-type Akc dogs in there, but even the ancestry of those dogs goes back pretty quickly to either DDR, some very good West German show line dogs like Ursus v. Batu, or West German working lines (Bodo v. Lierberg, etc.)

And yeah, that IS an awful lot of inbreeding, but most of it is what's considered an acceptable distance from the related dogs (4 or 5 generations back.)

There is no question about it: your dog has some very strong genetics, and is likely going to want to protect 'for real' as he gets older. You need to know how to deal with that. Most trainers of pet dogs don't have a clue, as these characteristics have mostly been bred out of current German shepherd lines.

Cliff is the best person to get advice from. He has a LOT of experience handling dogs like this.


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies and advice, everyone  And thanks for putting together the pedigree, gooseman. I do appreciate it. I've also reached out to Cliff via PM.

I think maybe I wasn't clear in my statement about holding off on training, I just meant PPD training  Obedience is definitely our priority right now, along with continued socialization. Now that the weather is nice in AZ, we're going to start doing some short desert hikes to increase his exposure to other stimuli and distracting/different environments. 

Gooseman, you mention tracking. Do you have any links or recommendations that worked for you that you could share? 

I'll do some research on nearby clubs that I could join up with as well!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Your dogs parents are siblings..... or have I just had a really long work week :thinking: too close for comfort.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Fodder said:


> Your dogs parents are siblings..... or have I just had a really long work week :thinking: too close for comfort.


I thought I saw that too, although I only glanced at it, then I thought I must have clicked on the same dog twice...


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

Really long work week, Fodder. Nothing closer than cousins.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Looks like grandparents are siblings. So does that make the parents half siblings? I'm too tired and have no brain left


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

NewtoK9 said:


> Thanks for all the replies and advice, everyone  And thanks for putting together the pedigree, gooseman. I do appreciate it. I've also reached out to Cliff via PM.
> 
> I think maybe I wasn't clear in my statement about holding off on training, I just meant PPD training  Obedience is definitely our priority right now, along with continued socialization. Now that the weather is nice in AZ, we're going to start doing some short desert hikes to increase his exposure to other stimuli and distracting/different environments.
> 
> ...


All sounds good and I concur with the earlier comments. AKC does have tracking events and training. Just go to the AKC web site. They are open to all breeds but sometimes they are more accessible than other organizations. Enjoy your young dog and build on that relationship and bonding. That is fundamental to a dog protecting you and his pack. Nature hikes are a really good way - taps into instincts from millennia when wolf packs hunted together or early humans and their dogs.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Shepdad said:


> AKC does have tracking events and training. Just go to the AKC web site. They are open to all breeds but sometimes they are more accessible than other organizations.


Tracking - American Kennel Club


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Highly recommend AKC tracking. I do it with my dog, it's a blast.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

NewtoK9 said:


> Gooseman, you mention tracking. Do you have any links or recommendations that worked for you that you could share?


Actually Steve stromm is the one who convinced me to try tracking while I work my way thru obedience. The club I work with wants you to finish their advanced obedience before you can join the club. You could also reach out to slamdunc, who's a mod here, or some of the SAR people as they have a far better grasp of tracking than I do. But what we started with is scent pads. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n_jxI-Cq7Zs


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I watched the video. The idea is good but I think the execution is off.

We started with a triangle scent pad instead of a square. The reason is we want the dog to follow the edges to the starting point. Later you go to a square and the dog has to find the exact starting point. In the end you won't even know where the track starts....its up to the dog to find it.

Next instead of throwing food all over, we took shuffle steps forward and left food about every 6" for the beginner. We did 3-4 of these early in the morning then put the dog up for an hour or so. Then repeat the process. We went forward about 6 feet the first group. And about the same for the next three groups. That's it for the day. Next day same time same triangle but increase the distance to 10-12 feet. Again 3-4 reps. Now depending on how the dog is doing we begin to increase the difficulty. We then do the pad and let the dog find the point. Then the first food is about a foot out. Next food is short. ( the dog is rewarded for success) do three like this. If the dog is very sure increase the difficulty by only stepping one step, left one right but reward each step. Again three tracks. Do this each day only increase the difficulty when the dog is successfull. Skip the rain days for now. Don't do them until you can do a Sch l track step by step.

If you correctly teach the damaged ground scent like this the dog will not fail a tracking test. I've done this with bicycle, motor cycle and 4 wheeler and a big person taking giant steps. We even tried a pogo stick but the track layer couldn't stay on it. You can really make it difficult by tracking in the heat of the day on hours old tracks. Then add hard rain and wind. Crossing a road will be difficult at first as the dog will be unsure where to keep looking. Once he gets the idea a road is no real obstical. A hot dry parking lot or busy street will really challenge your training.

The bottom line is patience and making sure the dog is really correct so far. Only increase difficulty when the dog is very sure at the current level. Dogs will lie to you if you let them. They are testing you to see if you know where the track is. So the old saying " you have to know where the track is to show the dog". 

At some point you will have to stop putting flags out as your scent will be on them no matter how carefull you are. Today with GPS devices you should know exactly where the track is at all times. We had to rely on natural points and mark them on a map in the old days.

If you are going to get into something beyond sport tracking, distractions will be necessary. A dead animal right on the track. Yeah, our AKC TD track had that exact thing plus was almost three times as long as required. The tracking judge hated me, my dog and our sport. Search and LE tracking becomes even more involved. 

I had more fun tracking than any other part of the sport. It simply amazed me how the dog could focus so intently for so long. Interestingly my GSD was not good at area search, some dogs are very good at it so let them be. I admire that part too. Good thing we weren't into bomb searches, we would have been blown to pieces.LOL..sadly.

Byron


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