# Long Coats for 2009



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I keep hearing rumors that longcoats are going to be back "in" for 2009. I emailed Tim Burke (UScA Breed Warden) and he said he heard the same thing and would confirm it for me when he got back from Germany. That was September and I have not heard anything.
Does anyone know?


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't know. But seeing as I live here in Germany and have a long coat I am interested to see what he has to say. I just don't see many coaties at all around here.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I find it interesting and am curious!
It was not that long ago that LC's were allowed.... the dam of V Yoschy von der Döllenwiese was a coat. And no one can really come up with a good reason why coats are a fault, except that the standard says. Having one at my house has broadened my perspective


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

The only bad thing I see about it being reaccepted is that the price will go up for them when you talk to breeders.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I don't know... if it is "normal" you may not see those breeding "special longcoats."
However, the more reputable breeders that discount for faults won't be discounting them.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

I have a friend that emailed SV and they said it would be Jan or so before the final decision will be made and most likely the sv will be allowing the long coats to be shown separate from the short coats and get breed surveys and what else they do but they have to have an undercoat, the true long coats that have no undercoat will still be faulted and not allowed


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

long coats are going to be back in what in 2009???


> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I keep hearing rumors that longcoats are going to be back "in" for 2009. I emailed Tim Burke (UScA Breed Warden) and he said he heard the same thing and would confirm it for me when he got back from Germany. That was September and I have not heard anything.
> Does anyone know?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Back in the registry as "breedable" and "showable."


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And for clarification: are you talking long coats or long stock coats? Long coats have never been allowed. Long stock, like Mona Döllenwiese, were.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I guess I am talking long-stock. Tufted ears, feathers on the legs and belly, but with an undercoat.

[For the record, I have seen short coats with no undercoat... The coat looked andd felt very similar to a doberman, but a bit longer.]


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That is considered a mole coat and it is incorrect also.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1 And no one can really come up with a good reason why coats are a fault, except that the standard says.


Taking a step back here - every purebred breed has a STANDARD which defines the ideal parameters of appearance, temperament and ability. A GSD does not fit the standard of a Dalmation - and a Swiss Mountain Dog does not fit the GSD's standard. Obviously. So what the standard defines must have been arbitary at the beginning when the breed was molded by selective breeding from other breeds. Was there a reason for the standard to call for erect ears rather than tulip or floppy? Someone's vision of what they felt was attractive. 

The white/blue/liver colors - lots of discussion about "why" these are "faults". People like them. Hey, I think a blue weim is more attractive than a taupe one! But their standard says it is an unacceptable color, just like ours defines the white, blue and liver as unacceptable. Arbitary? Yes - but the Standard defines the ideals to strive for in the breed. Seriously, there does not HAVE to be a reason for defining this as a fault, any more than flop ears vs erect ears. The parameters were defined and the breed is identified by the standard. JC Penny and Sears are both stores selling similar goods, but they have their own identities and corporate structure. 

The coat factor is one which is very widespread, and which is therefore apparently impossible to eradicate. The lines of definition of stock to long stock are often blurred and many show dogs (and a few working lines too!) I have seen are on that edge. If the SV has decided to allow the long stocks full status again, so be it. 

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1And no one can really come up with a good reason why coats are a fault, except that the standard says.



I just posted this in another thread on the topic, but since the reasoning behind coat types in the standard is being questioned here too, I'm going to be lazy and copy/paste.....

Considering the *working* heritage of the GSD breed, there are very valid reasons for considering some coat types faulty.

The standard stock coat is the most maintenance free and weather resistent. This is why it is the preferred coat type and the only type allowed under the standard.

A very short stock coat, with little to no undercoat, called a "close coat" or "mole coat" is faulty because the lack of undercoat provides less insulation against heat and cold and less water resistance. Things that are important to a dog working outside in all sorts of weather.

The true long coat (without an undercoat) has the same problem. Lack of water resistence and insulation. Plus, the long outer coat is more prone to matting, picking up burrs, etc... if the dog is out running around in fields or woods all day. 

The long stock coat (long coat with an undercoat) used to be accepted under the standard, and in 2009 it will be accepted again, though was still never considered desireable, only permissable. The presence of undercoat ensures proper insulation and water reistence, but that longer outer coat still means more chance of matting, burrs, etc... compared to a standard stock coat. So while a dog with a long stock coat working outside in all sorts of weather wouldn't be as handicapped as a mole coat or long coat, it is still not as low maintenance as a standard stock coat.

The bias against coats is not some elitest nitpicky attitude. It is respect for the breed standard. And the coat requirements of the breed standard are not there for some arbitrary reason or because someone just didn't like them. They are there for a very GOOD reason when we consider the origin, heritage and purpose of this breed. The fact that 99% of GSDs are now pets and no longer all weather working dogs is not a valid reason to throw out the standard because the standard is what defines the breed and makes a GSD a GSD.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lee and Chris, good posts.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Thanks for everyone's input! I do not mean to "knock" the standard at all.... my comments were more to point out that coated dogs were allowed until recently (late 80's early 90's??) and I have no idea what led up to them being ousted. It just seems odd that they were allowed for that long and then not. Of course I am relatively new to shepherds, so there may have been more to it.


And I certainly agree about desirable traits-- poor pigment and light eyes are also undesirable per the standard but most breeders seem to weigh in the whole dog.

The coated dog I have at the house now has a coat just like my Australian Shepherd had. And Aussies are most definitely a working breed and not at all hindered by having feathering. My Aussie was one of the most low maintenace dogs ever, aside from an occassional tangle behind the ear

So are coats going to be allowed again per the SV?
What about AKC?
Will they be judged in separate classes or along with the "regular" GSDS?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Long *stock* coats will again be allowed by the SV in 2009, though my understanding is they will be placed in separate classes for showing, breed surveys, etc... True long coats (no undercoat) have never been allowed, and probably never will be.

They have always been allowed by AKC. AKC's GSDCA sets it's own standard which has no bearing on what the parent club in Germany does.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Ok, thanks. 
I have just been corrected by a LC lover about AKC standard... that they are NOT disqualified, just faulted, so I stand corrected.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

With a split on the Horizon & a growing German Long Coat club.
It's all about getting members ($) in the SV!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Another major disadvantage of a long-coated working dog is snow sticking to it. On warmer days, when the snow is sticky, my long-coated mixed breed dog gets snow balls the size of my fist all over her legs, tail, and underbelly, arm-pits and inner-thighs, to the point that she literally has trouble walking from the snow build-up. It takes a lot of work pulling all those snow-balls off her, and snow/ice balls sticking close to her skin is sometimes very hard to pull out, it is so matted into the hair. Then she gets to chill (literaly!) in the tub while it melts, and I will take the hair dryer to her to speed things up - but it is still a time-consuming process. 

It is a HUGE pain, both for her and for me, and I really don't see how she could function in the snow at all in those conditions (most of the winter here it is so cold that the snow does not stick, so the problem is only seasonably transient).

And at the same time, no matter how wet or sticky the snow, my GSD pup with the regular coat does not get ANY snow sticking to him. He can just walk into the house from outside and carry on as usual, while I have to spend an hour of "de-snowing" Keeta who was outside under the same exact conditions.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

But what about other working coated breeds?

My Cockers (both the pure bred I purchased as a pup and the rescue I got as a pup) both had issues with wet snow causing snowballs in their coat.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

As a long time owner of coated Belgians I can dispel some thoughts, a good textured long coat does not tangle, hold snow nor burrs. Burrs you can grab and pull and it comes out, and the dog will do it with his teeth easily. The coat does not wrap around it. Also living with lots of snow I know they never carried snow into the house. My shihtzu cross however does. If you check the Belgian site today this was up for discussion because those with correct texture don't have problems with coats in winter getting snow balls in their leg feathering and tails.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

trudy, I agree that long coats can work on a working dog, but many longer-coated breeds have been bred with weather/snow/dirt resistant coats specifically. I think part of the problem with long-coated GSDs, is that the long coats are genetic variations with different texture than the standard GSD coat. 

If the long-coats were JUST as weather/snow/dirt resistant as the regular coats, and resisted matting, I'm guessing coat length wouldn't have been such an issue in writing up the standard. 

Lauri, do you know if your Cockers were English Cockers, or American? My understanding is that the English Cockers are still bred for work, while the American Cockers are mostly bred for show, and have great differences in structure and coat type. 

I'm wondering if the problems with the snow sticking to your Cocker Spaniels was more a result of them having "show" coats as opposed to the coats the working Cockers would have.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

Loki is DDR/Czech working lines, and I can't tell wether he will be plush or longcoated. 

I showed the groomer at work today, and she couldn't be sure either. 

I was suppose to get my pup in the spring from another litter, however from what the breeder told me, the person who was suppose to get Loki, couldn't get him (or something like that). 

LOL, I was wondering if it was because of his coat









I hear it's a "fault", however I fell in love with coats after seeing Debbie's Dena and Keefer, and I have wanted one ever since.

When I was told of Loki, I just about died, because I wanted a coated dog so much. 

When I first told the breeder what I was looking for, I didn't mention a coated dog, because I didn't think one would happen.

I also didn't get any discount, maybe it was because I was so excited when she told me.

I will say that it's a pain in the a$$ to get dirt, mud, silt, etc out of his coat, I was in the shower for the longest time trying to get all the junk he hides in his coat


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## Caitlin (Mar 28, 2005)

Looks like a long coat to me, and absolutely stunning!

I'm so jealous of you.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

He is GORGEOUS! and it looks like he has a very, very thick coat.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidLauri, do you know if your Cockers were English Cockers, or American? My understanding is that the English Cockers are still bred for work, while the American Cockers are mostly bred for show, and have great differences in structure and coat type.
> 
> I'm wondering if the problems with the snow sticking to your Cocker Spaniels was more a result of them having "show" coats as opposed to the coats the working Cockers would have.


One was from American show lines. The other, Tazer, is a rescue but we think he's from American field lines - he doesn't grow much coat at all.

Both American and English Cockers now have two "types" - show lines and field lines.


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## ituneyou (Dec 20, 2008)

I still havent figuered out whether my Max is a long stock coat or a long coat, here he is taken last summer when he just turned 2 yrs old.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Long stock. The difference is the presence of an undercoat. Long stock coats have them, long coats do not. True long coats (without an undercoat) are very, very rare. Most dogs typically referred to as just a "long coat" are actually long stock coats.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Lucia

Little Ray, has no problems with balling snow, & she is always covered in the white stuff.
She just shakes it off, now Deejay gets balls of snow in his front paws, he has Open front feet.
But RJ has the cutest little tight feet







, and you have to move the hairs to get at her nails too.
Also you have to call her in, she will curl up in a ball in the snow,
like a husky, she just loves the cold weather.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

please explain the difference between a long coat and a long stck coat.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Look up 2 posts.









Long stock coat has an undercoat.

Long coat does not.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

To be honest, I don't think that the long (stock) coat is such a a disadvantage for a working dogs. Other working breeds have long coats and is not a problem for them and then if we start discussing about texture that is to split hairs.

Maybe the Old Captain wanted to differenciate his breed of other shepherd dogs working in Germany at the time, some long coated, some not. But to create a breed easilly recognized by people at first sight his dogs had to be of one length of coat to not to be confused. Probably he tought it would take him a few generations to get rid of the long-coat gene... ha!.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Catu, Have you ever had a long stock coat?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I am a bit confused over long coat vs. long stock coat as to the types of fur... 
Does the "true" long coat have soft fur, or is their fur more like the outer coat of a regular GSD? How about the long stock coat type?

This is Tyco ( pic). I'm not sure which type he would be considered. His fur is soft and kinda fluffy and it attracts burrs and tangles easily. Are both types of long coats soft like this?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think if you were to see a long coat without undercoat, you would know immediately. I had a short-coat without undercoat (aka "mole coat") and it was very obvious.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDCatu, Have you ever had a long stock coat?


No, only a very furry Border Collie, but my opinion is not valid because I have no snow either and is not the same some trips to the mountains than to live in the snow.

Take what I said as another angle to see things, but if you with snow and long coats think it is really bad, then it is.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Catu,

I was just curious. I have had 3 long stock coats and there WAS a difference but with them it was mainly with things like small sticks and grass seeds getting stuck in their coats. Don't get me wrong, the same things can happen to a "regualr" coat too. But it is MUCH easier to find and get them out of a stock coat if they get them. 

It also greatly depends on the amount of coat the dog has. All 3 of mine, while they were all technically long stock coat, had different coats from eachother.

Even the furriest Border Colies I have seen tend to have less coat than a lot of long stock coat GSD. (My Border Collie was a smooth coat.)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Do you think we will start to see an increase in long/long-stock coat GSDs in the US with the new SV rules?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

If I were to guess I would say no. There are already a LOT of them in the US due to folks breeding them even though they are outside the standard and the breeder doesn't CARE. And also due to the fact that quite often, even breeders that ARE breeding to the standard, end up with long coats in their litters between 2 stock coated parents.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My Coke is not GSD but some mix and has a coat like a long stock coat GSD. His coat is both wonderful and a burden in the winter. It keeps him very warm. All my dogs like snow, but my GSDs like it mainly for playing. Coke actually likes to lie in the snow and just be out in the yard by himself. The problem is that the snow sticks to the coat and clumps. If it's not really cold or he is warm, it melts on him. Then he's wet and still out playing in the cold, more snow is sticking, melting, freezing, ugh. Also when he comes in he is totally covered in snow balls. Today I sat next to him with a bowl, pulling off clumps of snow. It's such a pain for both him and I. He also gets snow clumped on his feet and will eventually whine and want to come back in. And I actually groom him by trimming and thinning with shears so he's not even as fully coated as he could be.


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## Nikkia (Jul 27, 2008)

That's great that their finally accepting long coats!

Nikkia's coat has never gotten in the way. When we go to the beach and she get buried in the sand it just falls right off after she walks around for a minute. I take her hiking all the time and sometimes she takes little adventures through the brush and I've never had to pull one bramble out of her the snow doesn't stick and even when you soak her she doesn't stay wet long enough for me to get shampoo in. I have never had to detangle or cut a mat out of her. 

I know for a fact that she is a long coated shepherd but I have never had any of the maintenance problems most people have described I only spend about 20 minutes brushing her a day 10 in the morning and 10 in the evening. 

Her coat is about 2 inches long and it lays flat against her body with no parting down the back. Her dad's hair is about 4 inches and it is quite fluffy he I know is a long coat, her mom's a short coat so I'm wondering if she just somewhere in between. 

what do you guys think?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Nikkia
> 
> I know for a fact that she is a long coated shepherd but I have never had any of the maintenance problems most people have described I only spend about 20 minutes brushing her a day 10 in the morning and 10 in the evening.


20 minutes a day is high maintenance to me. I rake mine once or twice a week to control shedding and that's is.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Nikkia
> ...


I agree. 20 minutes a day is "high maintenance"!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

LOL.. I agree with the others. 20 minutes a day would be considered very high maintenance. Ours get brushed for about 5 minutes once every 1-2 weeks. More than that isn't needed except during shedding season. Then they get brushed a bit more often just so we get less hair all over the furniture.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeMy Coke is not GSD but some mix and has a coat like a long stock coat GSD. His coat is both wonderful and a burden in the winter. It keeps him very warm. All my dogs like snow, but my GSDs like it mainly for playing. Coke actually likes to lie in the snow and just be out in the yard by himself. The problem is that the snow sticks to the coat and clumps. If it's not really cold or he is warm, it melts on him. Then he's wet and still out playing in the cold, more snow is sticking, melting, freezing, ugh. Also when he comes in he is totally covered in snow balls. Today I sat next to him with a bowl, pulling off clumps of snow. It's such a pain for both him and I. He also gets snow clumped on his feet and will eventually whine and want to come back in. And I actually groom him by trimming and thinning with shears so he's not even as fully coated as he could be.


That is exactly what I have to go through with Keeta all the time. Her coat looks almost identical to Coke's. I have seen her so loaded with fist-sized snow balls hanging off her inner legs and belly area, that she had trouble walking.

On days like that, I can spend _an hour_ de-snowing her after we come in.


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## Nikkia (Jul 27, 2008)

I guess it just seems low to me cause my mom spends almost an hour on each of her dogs and I spent almost an hour and a half on her older brother when I owned him. It probably wouldn't take me so long if I didn't have to go over her twice each time but my mom won't let me keep her if her allergies get to bad.









Glad I don't have to de-snow Nikkia helping my mom de-snow her 5 papillons is enough trouble. their coat hangs about 4 inches from their back and it is the biggest pain in the butt to get the clumps off of all that fur! LOL


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