# Puppy keeps jumping on table and stealing food + aggressive



## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

Hey guys

Z is over 6 months now, she has gone very tall and weighs 60lbs. Since we first had her we have always had the problem of her jumping up onto the dining table and stealing food. We have tried pushing her off saying no etc but now its just getting out of hand because not only she is much bigger and stronger. She is becoming even aggressive whenever we push her off, by this I mean very aggressive. She growls and attacks us with powerful bites and this happens every time for the past few months almost every single day and is getting extremely fustrated. I also dont want to crate her during dinner time bc I am afraid it will only get worse when she is even bigger and we dont want to use crates.

Please help is it normal?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

why don't you want to crate her? She hasn't earned the right to be with you when you eat. If it were a human child behaving like this you'd put them in a high chair and tell them they had to stay there. 

you could also use Sit On The Dog Leash. You have to be firm and keep the leash short. Then when the meal is over, then they get some food in their bowl. This is how we taught our dogs to behave at restaurant patios. 

So basically you have to draw the line and someone has enforce that line. It may mean missing a couple of dinners but it shouldn't take long for the pup to figure out that you mean business.

as far as the growling, I don't think it is aggressive. You pup probably thinks you are playing some awesome game!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Crate her!! This behavior has been reinforced for the past few months (your timeline) and will take some time to replace. Keep a short lead on her while inside. If you have to lead her to the crate, you have the lead to use instead of reaching for the collar (helps avoid other issues). When you are done with your meal AND the table is cleaned off (set her up to win); let her out to eat her meal.

Begin solid OB training. Some would say you can do this yourself; however there is already a history that will require a more experienced eye to be involved.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When max was a young pup he was very obnoxious at dinner time he would try to swipe something off the table when given a chance or not. One time we were over my mom and dads house -max was 12 weeks old -and max swooped in and grabbed a piece of hamburger as my dad was about to put it in his mouth!!!
We would hAve to crate max then later on put on a leash-"Sit on the dog" -This all took some time but learned how to control his impulses and lay down and watches us eat and sometimes fall asleep. . Almost thought that might not happen but it did with much effort on my part. He knew when he behaved he would get some left overs. I have seen this on this forum when Chip posted about "sit on the dog" a great thing to teach your dog. 
http://youtu.be/W2WgOZUebnY


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

NickZ said:


> Please help is it normal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI G7-L03 using Tapatalk



No.....


SuperG


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I use a short tether leash on a puppy while I am eating, starting from the day we get the puppy. The dog is expected to lie quietly at my feet. At 9 months, my puppy will now lie down next to me without the lead. I did it every single time. He chewed through a few when I wasn't paying attention but he never steals food. If you crate him, it will stop but you need to work on food aggression because that is not an acceptable behave and it will just get worse. I don't have experience with that, but others here do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I looked back thru your previous posts and it appears you've been having issues for the last few months which sound like it's escalating. I can't tell if this is a case of an actually aggressive dog (and yes, dogs this young can just be genetically aggressive!) or if it's a case of a puppy being a jerk for lack of leadership and appropriate correction. But, given this statement



> She growls and attacks us with powerful bites and this happens every time for the past few months almost every single day


I would advise you get someone in there to evaluate the dog and conditions. She will only get bigger, more powerful and more out of control. Where do you live at so people can advise a trainer?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sounds like unintentional TABLE training , aggression work .

dog needs to be read the riot act. NOW.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

omg...that is NOT anything like "table training, aggression work". ZERO resemblance. Don't even say things like that so people that have no knowledge of table training can run with it. Not even as a joke.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

carmspack said:


> sounds like unintentional TABLE training , aggression work .
> 
> dog needs to be read the riot act. NOW.


Sounds like you had too much morning coffee. She/he needs serious advice. Crating during time you cannot work with her is the thing to do. The dog will never forget the success of stealing from the table; it is a life-long issue. Fortunately there are worse problems.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

omg...that is NOT anything like "table training, aggression work". ZERO resemblance. Don't even say things like that so people that have no knowledge of table training can run with it. Not even as a joke.


why not ?
that is the image that comes immediately to mind.

if I understand the dog is standing four paws on the table. ?

dog is on table , defends the space , owners go in there acting like a decoy doing prey work - forward motion in and backing off (with fright) when dog shows teath or barks and so dog gets ramped on the table .

UNINTENTIONAL --- 

the dog is guarding territory and resource 

he needs to be sent a message so that he doesn't even , ever, think to jump onto the table.

how do you let this develop . Apparently this has happened since the dog was a pup.

" She growls and attacks us with powerful bites and this happens every time for the past few months almost every single day"

this is serious. 

I wonder what else is going on where the dog is allowed to rule the roost?

get the dog into a crate . 
Keep the dog out of any dining area where you should be able to eat in peace and
quiet . No dog begging or intimidating.

don't feed from the table . don't feed from the counter during food prep in the kitchen .
don't let the dog push your buttons.


This is where aversive correction -- one


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wolfy dog;7943545The dog will never forget the success of stealing from the table; it is a life-long issue[/QUOTE said:


> You could be right...but I'd wager....a few sessions around the table coupled with properly timed adequate corrections will also never be forgotten ....
> 
> 
> SuperG


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

car2ner said:


> why don't you want to crate her? She hasn't earned the right to be with you when you eat. If it were a human child behaving like this you'd put them in a high chair and tell them they had to stay there.
> 
> you could also use Sit On The Dog Leash. You have to be firm and keep the leash short. Then when the meal is over, then they get some food in their bowl. This is how we taught our dogs to behave at restaurant patios.
> 
> ...


How do you know when it's aggression or not? If it were me, I would think it's aggression. Because you are sort of taking away their food by not letting them get on the table. How do you know when it's aggression or not?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Possibly unintentional object guard training, but I'm picturing the dog putting her front two feet on the table, not all four feet. So not really table training.

Not even close to normal behavior. Begging is normal, stealing food is normal. A dog growling and biting people over the people's food at the dinner table is not normal. 

A few options.

Crate the dog. 

Train the dog to a solid down-stay. Like a poster mentioned sit on the leash. That can take some effort and be annoying while eating dinner, but will work.

Correct the dog firmly and strongly. That is more difficult to do right. Since it's gotten to this point with the OP, to go this route find a good trainer and work with him or her. 

I'm guessing there are issues with other aspects of the human-dog relationship?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Why bother sugarcoating the method for correcting via a crate ...which most likely will only manage the problem due to lack of access.

I know what I would do.....and it would resemble "leave it" training...heavy consequence/correction for even lifting those front paws off the ground to get on the table. I'd set the dog up for failure...all kinds of food on the table...close to the edge... to make sure he wanted to get on the table....makes the timing easier for the correction. First time the dog walks past the table on lead without trying to pull its crap....plenty of reward then.

But that's just me....

SuperG


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Super G, yes that is how I'd handle it, too. Corrections for sure.

But, if this is the only place where there is conflict, putting the dog up while eating, while just a management technique, can't be done "wrong". 

I am afraid if the dog has gotten this bad already, a trainer might be in order. Because I could see some conflict resulting from this if the OP does it wrong. Someone might get hurt. Dog has already shown she is willing to put teeth on skin over this issue.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"if this is the only place where there is conflict, putting the dog up while eating,"

probably isn't the only place where there is conflict -- use of crate is so objectionable it makes
me wonder if the dog has any limitations to behaviour.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> Why bother sugarcoating the method for correcting via a crate ...which most likely will only manage the problem due to lack of access.
> 
> I know what I would do.....and it would resemble "leave it" training...heavy consequence/correction for even lifting those front paws off the ground to get on the table. I'd set the dog up for failure...all kinds of food on the table...close to the edge... to make sure he wanted to get on the table....makes the timing easier for the correction. First time the dog walks past the table on lead without trying to pull its crap....plenty of reward then.
> 
> ...


Definitely. This dog is running the show. I would use a long line with a prong to correct the first couple times. Dog jumps, Whap Correction. 

BUT - previous posts say this behavior is not just restricted to the table and has been going on for a couple of months. This is a young dog barely out of puppyhood. I think there have been zero rules, impulse control, manners. IMO, this person could really benefit from a trainer to show them how.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree, Carm, that there is probably conflict elsewhere. But for tonight's dinner, why not crate the pup while this whole thing is figured out. Or put her in the yard, or whatever.

I believe management is a fine tool for some cases. A leash, for example, if the owner can't bother to teach a recall.

All about keeping dogs and people safe. So many people never bother to train anything.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well then .... Rules, Structure and Limitations ... "Clearly" this dog has none! A "trainer" can't fix this ... as long as the at home conditions don't change. The OP needs to either up his game or rehome the dog, pretty much that simple.

If rehoming is not on the table ... then it's time to :
User Media - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
For the dog.

A "Prong Collar" is not a "viable' option for this owner at this time. If they understood how to "properly" use a "Prong Collar" then most likely ... they would not be having these issues?? The dog needs a "reset"* "Behaviour Modification Protocol*" to stop the table crap .. right *"Freaking Now*" and then* "work"* on the rest of the dog's issues ie* "Taining."* 

It's not that hard to send a proper message ... the "OP" just has to know how ?? Option one an E-Collar, crank it up high, wait for the dog to do the behavior and hold the button down for a count of three, ... the table problem ... solved! That is *"NOT*" how you *"Train"* a dog with an E-Collar but it is how you stop crap like this!

Looks like this:





That's a "Checkbook" solution because your going to have to buy an "E-Collar" and learn how to set it up. If you go through that much trouble and expense, then ... you might as well find a "Trainer" to learn how to "Train" your dog properly with an E-Collar. 

Option two can give the same results and cost, ... *"Nothing"* use a *"Bonker!" *A towel bound with rubber bands, when the dog commits to the act ... you throw the *"Bonker"* at the dog and "hit him in the head with it" deliver an "Aversive" and teach him *"to make better choices!!"*

So ... yesterday should be the last day "that" crap happens. Sally Scooter can demonstrate.:





Beyond that ... its' time to "make some changes" in how this dogs lives in this household ... "Crate Train" the dog. "Train Place and do Sit on the Dog" and institute a "No Free Roaming in the house Policy and keep a "Drag Leash" ( a leash with no handle to get caught on furniture) on the Dog for use inside, so you "don't" have to be laying hands on the dog. You would grab the leash to guide the dog either back to "Place" or to his "Crate" because indoors ... that is where this dog "needs" to be for the next 30 to 90 days. And if the biting and jumping is an issue?? Just se a "Pet Convincer." :Pet Convincer.com

Or go to a "Bicycle Shop" an but a Bicycle Air Pump ...have the cost. Moving on. The following is under "The New Dog a Challenge" heading but it would best to just flat "start over" ... see here.: 

https://stickydogblog.com/2012/10/11/i-just-got-a-rescued-dog-what-do-i-do/

And the details for "Place/Crate and No Free Roaming ... can be found here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

None of it is hard and the whole of the "process" is what "Rules, Structure and Limitations" or (Management) looks like. The only thing required is "commitment" from the owner to get it right. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

Oh yeah and ... find a trainer:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

Hey guys thanks for the ideas

It seems that some of you guys are getting the wrong idea about Z's behaviour. She isnt completely out of control.. she has improved alot since she was 2 months on bite inhibitation and overall. We definately set rules and correct her continuously but the problem is her love for food.. its amazing, she would kill for food. One time I tried giving her 5 cups of kibble to test how much she could take and she completely destroyed it without hesitation ( gave no more just in case). This seems to be the problem, she certainly is not underfed because she is around the average male weight so feeding her more probably wouldnt do the trick. Please understand that I have been researching constantly and I know what to do and expect but just seeking advice from experienced people since the only other experience Ive had was with our family dog which we got when I was 4 so no puppy experience (im 16). Ill be sure to do the lead advice, I will try tieing her near the dinner table whenever she tries jumping while we have dinner so she can learn if she jumps, shes getting absolute zero freedom. Ill will try this tecnique and see how it works thanks 

Ps I live in New Zealand

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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

NickZ said:


> Hey guys thanks for the ideas
> 
> I was 4 so no puppy experience (im 16). Ill be sure to do the lead advice, I will try tieing her near the dinner table whenever she tries jumping while we have dinner so she can learn if she jumps, shes getting absolute zero freedom. Ill will try this tecnique and see how it works thanks
> 
> ...


good. Let us know how it goes. We all started off not knowing all the tools in our tool box.

When I said that perhaps it isn't real aggression and just some really big game, if you push your pup to get her to stop does she just come back harder...like OK, So you want to play rough"? That is not aggression. But if you come in soft and she is snarling and growling...that is no game. 

You can also try a "Yummy spot" chose a spot that becomes the one and only spot she gets people food. We have one where our dining room meets the kitchen. When the dogs first sit there while I am prepping food, I toss them tidbits. There is no need to jump up on the counter when they get tidbits from sitting in the yummy spot. Then over a week or so, I cut down a bit at a time on the treats. Now they sit in the yummy spot and may or may not get a treat, but for the most part they don't pester me in the kitchen.

Remember for every NO you give a dog (or a person for that matter) it is best if there is a YES they can do. Otherwise they stop the NO behavior for a little bit and then go back to it. 

So NO you cannot jump up on the table. YES you can watch us from here. NO you cannot have food while we are eating. YES you can eat after we clean up.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Is she underweight?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

NickZ said:


> Hey guys thanks for the ideas
> 
> but the problem is her love for food.. its amazing, she would kill for food.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI G7-L03 using Tapatalk


That's not a problem....use her food drive to your benefit....

SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when you said " jumping up onto the dining table and stealing food." I thought you meant that she gets up with all four feet on to the table surface.

this is serious though ". She growls and attacks us with powerful bites and this happens every time for the past few months almost every single day"

seems like biting has been a bit of a problem 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/637353-puppy-wont-let-us-touch-her.html
if not you , then she was biting up and swallowing your bed ---
or pulling you like some crazy thing when out for walks 
big time for training -- see Chips advice on page two !! 

use a crate ! 

that attitude , the not wanting to crate -- I think there is more to it - or potentially more negative that will develop .

regarding the weight " she certainly is not underfed because she is around the average male weight" -- so she is actually heavy for her age and gender ---- then the kibble is poor quality calorie dense, nutrient deficient leaving the dog wanting more because her nutritional needs haven't been satisfied.


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Is she underweight?


Nope shes quite big for her age actually

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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

carmspack said:


> when you said " jumping up onto the dining table and stealing food." I thought you meant that she gets up with all four feet on to the table surface.
> 
> this is serious though ". She growls and attacks us with powerful bites and this happens every time for the past few months almost every single day"
> 
> ...


Idk about poor quality, we use royal canin which is specifically made for german shepherds and costs 150 per 12kg. You can check out the brand and please tell me if its good or not thanks 

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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

SuperG said:


> That's not a problem....use her food drive to your benefit....
> 
> SuperG


We definately dotake advantage of her food drive for her obediance training but shes always hungry which is the problem.

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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

car2ner said:


> good. Let us know how it goes. We all started off not knowing all the tools in our tool box.
> 
> When I said that perhaps it isn't real aggression and just some really big game, if you push your pup to get her to stop does she just come back harder...like OK, So you want to play rough"? That is not aggression. But if you come in soft and she is snarling and growling...that is no game.
> 
> ...


Hey 

Im pretty certain it is aggression.

Yup we try give her some leftovers every now and then to reinforce good behaviour ofc but for the yummy spot... she cant sit still, she walks around the kitchen under the tables etc waiting for the right time to jump up and snatch so atm I am thinking of attaching her somewhere nearby during dinner and giving her some rewards.

Thanks

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Royal Canin is low quality food .
I don't know what you would have available .

The dog is developing some big time bad attitude . 
It is aggression -- and you are promoting it . 

For man and dog it is important that dinner time is pleasurable .
No pressure . No distress . 
This dog doesn't need to be hovering around waiting , pushing , for
hand outs or plates to be scraped for her , or tid bits thrown at her.

To change, as in extinquish , the behaviour she will never get food beyond her scheduled doggy-dinners.
Very clear , black and white . No food from the table. Not passed to her under the table , not tossed to her
while she is staring at you from feet away.
If you want to give her scraps then keep them over to put into her bowl of whatever you
choose to feed her.
Think about a raw diet .

Use food as a motivational aide for good behaviour -- reinforcing with a little high value tid bit 
thumbnail sized , so that the reward is quick and you can move on without interruption .
Food as a motivator isn't about nutrition .
As the behaviour becomes reliable the reward becomes random , intermittent , then phased out .
Using it for training benefits doesn't mean sitting pretty for the food . 
Start by getting that dog on the leash and walking 10 feet with some attentive heeling.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so there was a bit of a giggle at the expense of my comparing this OP's dog to a dog in training to promote aggression using "table training"

the dog was said to jump onto the table. 

the image was clear in my mind because I had been asked to look at a dog (again) who belongs to friend of my husband . The dog would physically jump onto to the kitchen counter and pick off left overs from plates waiting to be scraped . 
That didn't seem to be enough of a bother to be really pro-active about it . (smaller dog - terrier , chihuahua mix).
Seemed a bit of a conversational point .
Now there is a new baby (first) in the house who is being introduced to first foods and self feeding .
So when the food had been prepared and sitting on the counter for seconds , while mum had her back turned to put baby into high chair , dog jumps up and snarfs down the pureed broth moistened baby lunch .

Okay, all of a sudden , this is no longer cute . Mother frustrated and angry , baby hungry and crying , dog barking - and baby crying more . 

ultimatum given 
Had chance to see a re-enactment .
The dog would dance around , show aggression , as the hands dart in and out trying to grab the collar so that the dog could be lifted off the counter. Good decoy work for table work ! 

Management problems . Dog has other unwanted nuisance behaviour.

I had already offered ideas which THEY have to institute as part of management .
The OP's problem is all about management . 

I recommended them to Gemini K9 - for full package training. 

The handler will get the dog they deserve.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If she is always hungry, is not overweight base on how exposed her ribs are, not just in height, then a vet visit should be scheduled. Something is making her hungry all the time. Or, it just seems like she's hungry because she is bullying her owners to take food. 

Carmspack is right, she needs training no matter what else might be going on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If she is always hungry, is not overweight base on how exposed her ribs are, not just in height, then a vet visit should be scheduled. Something is making her hungry all the time. Or, it just seems like she's hungry because she is bullying her owners to take food.
> 
> Carmspack is right, she needs training no matter what else might be going on.


I agree that a vet visit is in order. This dog seems to be too hungry.


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

Okay ill try taking her to the vet asap. 

she does seem healthy and happy 24/7 jumping around, also extremely active and loves getting chased around.

Thanks

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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If she is always hungry, is not overweight base on how exposed her ribs are, not just in height, then a vet visit should be scheduled. Something is making her hungry all the time. Carmspack is right, she needs training no matter what else might be going on.


I have a very food driven dog. He gets the right amount of food but also "acts like he is always hungry" He could always eat more he has drawn blood (on accident) getting just kibble out of my hand while heeling, and he is still young. There have been 2 or 3 times where he was fed multiple time due to miscommunication. He eat his 2nd meal just as hungrily as he did the second and then ate his dinner in the same manner. I dont think a driven dog necessarily needs a vet visit. It sounds to me like she needs more structure and routine in her life as well as very clear boundaries. Definitely sounds like crate training is in order as well.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

girardid said:


> I have a very food driven dog. He gets the right amount of food but also "acts like he is always hungry" He could always eat more he has drawn blood (on accident) getting just kibble out of my hand while heeling, and he is still young. There have been 2 or 3 times where he was fed multiple time due to miscommunication. He eat his 2nd meal just as hungrily as he did the second and then ate his dinner in the same manner. I dont think a driven dog necessarily needs a vet visit. It sounds to me like she needs more structure and routine in her life as well as very clear boundaries. Definitely sounds like crate training is in order as well.


I agree with the training comment. I also have a food motivated and drivey dog, but we also weren't feeding enough. When I increased his food just a little, he stopped scrounging for food and trying to eat everything in sight.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NickZ said:


> Okay ill try taking her to the vet asap.
> 
> she does seem healthy and happy 24/7 jumping around, also extremely active and loves getting chased around.
> 
> ...


When you'go to the vet, have them check her weight and feel her ribs. We went through a period of agitation with our puppy, where he was doing some weird things, and the vet said he was too thin. Although we weren't having the same problems you are. Ours was showing up as trying to eat things that were inedible, licking the floor and furniture, etc. It's more likely yours just has behavior problems, but it could also be something else. What you are trying to do is rule out anything else. You still need to fix the behaviors, though.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I agree with the training comment. I also have a food motivated and drivey dog, but we also weren't feeding enough. When I increased his food just a little, he stopped scrounging for food and trying to eat everything in sight.


but what im saying is even with increased food intake my dog still acts the same. Its like he cannot feel full. There was also a period of time before i knew exactly how a healthy weight gsd should be and i did over feed he was a chubby puppy but i thought it was ok because he is growing and was always hungry.

Im not against going to the vet I just believe this to be a training only issue.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

girardid said:


> but what im saying is even with increased food intake my dog still acts the same. Its like he cannot feel full. There was also a period of time before i knew exactly how a healthy weight gsd should be and i did over feed he was a chubby puppy but i thought it was ok because he is growing and was always hungry.
> 
> Im not against going to the vet I just believe this to be a training only issue.


I'm sorry, I was confusing your situation with the OP's. Yes, yours sounds like training.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm sorry, I was confusing your situation with the OP's. Yes, yours sounds like training.


No I am saying my dog is always hungry like OP even with an increased food intake and even with an extra meal. But mine does not jump on the table to steal scrap nor does he pace and wait to be given treats when we are eating. 

I'm suggesting that OP has a very food driven dog that will act hungry even though it is given an appropriate amount of food and is at a healthy weight. The difference being that OP has not properly trained their dog nor have they set clear boundaries. So the vet visit will likely not show anything but more training and structure will yield a great improvement in behavior.


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

girardid said:


> No I am saying my dog is always hungry like OP even with an increased food intake and even with an extra meal. But mine does not jump on the table to steal scrap nor does he pace and wait to be given treats when we are eating.
> 
> I'm suggesting that OP has a very food driven dog that will act hungry even though it is given an appropriate amount of food and is at a healthy weight. The difference being that OP has not properly trained their dog nor have they set clear boundaries. So the vet visit will likely not show anything but more training and structure will yield a great improvement in behavior.


What you said was pretty much spot on the problem ahah. 

Yup we re just working on consequences whenever she jumps onto the table (leashing her somewhere nearby) and leftovers for whenever doesnt

Thanks

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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Leashing her somewhere is just a management tool, that is not training. Which is fine if you choose to manage this and not train. Crating would be the same idea.

But it's not training if as soon as you remove the physical restraint, the dog goes and does the exact thing you don't want- like jumping on the table. 

I'm unclear on the "hard" biting the dog is doing. When is this happening? When you go grab her collar? When she wants your food? When she is on the table eating your food? 

I feel like I'm misunderstanding the problem. I was picturing a dog making a flying leap at the table to eat people's food from their plates and then snarling and biting family members who got in her way.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Leashing her somewhere is just a management tool, that is not training. Which is fine if you choose to manage this and not train. Crating would be the same idea.
> 
> But it's not training if as soon as you remove the physical restraint, the dog goes and does the exact thing you don't want- like jumping on the table.
> 
> ...




absolutely -- 

there needs to be some obedience - food taken only when released to take -- same as you would have food refusal as part of the French Ring exercises 

"Food Refusal – dog is thrown 4 pieces of food (usually meat or cheese) while on a down stay with the handler out of sight. Dog must not eat the food, and if it is “accidentally” thrown into dogs mouth, he must immediately spit it out. The field is also baited with 6 pieces of food, in strategic locations(i.e. by blinds, jumps etc.) "

The tastiest , most tempting treats are thrown .
In my case when I trialed with my Kilo , a strip of beef "stir fry"
style slice , landed on the bridge of his nose .
He did not touch it .

To have a dog hiding under the table during dinner waiting for tid-bits to be passed to him has been conditioned to this being rewarding.
Dogs that roam around the kitchen like a blood smelling shark , waiting for a hand-out , have been conditioned to this being rewarding.

on to nutrition ---- Royal Canin is a poor quality product . I believe it was you , OP, who is using this?

The dog may be overfed and undernourished.
The body will crave what it needs , until those needs have been met Reading material - EMPTY HARVEST https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/349668.Empty_Harvest
Nutrition is not calories .
Empty calories will not satisfy hunger .

Get a physical at the vet's . Rule out diabetes, hypothyroidism, cushings, and parasites. 

No matter what the behaviour must change . 

Free-feeding is not a good option.
The dog's anatomy , like his ancestors , was made to gorge "wolf down" a substantial meal -- at one time - or divide into two .
My own dogs get one feeding . 

Several medical journals say that stretching or distention of the stomach - full happy tummy -- activate nerves which will help bile and stimulate gastric juices for improved digestion , and give neural signals that send messages to stop eating -- satisfied , needs met .
You wouldn't get that with a little meals . There will always be an internal pressure to find food.


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Leashing her somewhere is just a management tool, that is not training. Which is fine if you choose to manage this and not train. Crating would be the same idea.
> 
> But it's not training if as soon as you remove the physical restraint, the dog goes and does the exact thing you don't want- like jumping on the table.
> 
> ...


She likes to jump onto a chair with her front paws or sometimes likes to just jump onto the table the table with her front paws on the edge of the table and hind legs on the ground, kind of like a human looking for food. 

When this happens we push her off and this is where she starts getting aggressive barking etc. Usually attacks us after we push her a 2nd time

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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NickZ said:


> She likes to jump onto a chair with her front paws or sometimes likes to just jump onto the table the table with her front paws on the edge of the table and hind legs on the ground, kind of like a human looking for food.
> 
> When this happens we push her off and this is where she starts getting aggressive barking etc. Usually attacks us after we push her a 2nd time
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI G7-L03 using Tapatalk


You may have solved your own problem. Don't let her put her paws on furniture. Teach her to keep all feet on the floor and you won't have a bad behavior you need to correct. Then she has no reason to get aggressive.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You need to rethink what a consequence is Nick. Pushing her, holding her away with a leash, all that's going to do is frustrate her and get you bit. An ecollar is great for this kind of thing. A real consequence for her actions, and that impersonal separation from things like pushing her or at this point, even a leash correction. And I know how old she is.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

If hasn't been mentioned, have you tried a squirt bottle and taught 'off'? Worked for me. Aggressive when you push your dog away? Bop her on the nose. I'm sorry to her you're afraid your dog will bite you. Take charge now. Having said that, I have a difficult, wired 10 month old and recent e collar training is helping with unwanted behaviors.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh my God, folks, how would anyone eat dinner with a dog with four paws on the table -- that's insane. I read it that the dog is acting like Helen Keller. Going around the table while the people are eating and grabbing food and when they tell her NO!, she is becoming obnoxious and biting.

Crate the dog when you are eating. But that is NOT the answer. The dog is not being curbed at all. If you love this dog, you need to start training the dog. And because you have allowed bad behaviors to become set, you are going to have to break bad behaviors. And that isn't always pretty. If your spouse is not on board, it can get downright ugly. 

I am not saying that you have to physically beat or punish your dog. But you are going to have to own the resources, and that includes space and food and pets, and just about everything your dog wants. You need to crate the dog, and work with her and play with her, and correct what you do not like. When you are not working or playing with the dog, the dog needs to be given a place that where she cannot get in trouble, a crate or kennel, where if she moves or chews, or digs, she cannot hurt herself or anything she is not supposed to have.

You need a trainer. You are letting a puppy get the better of you, and you need help. Your puppy's life depends on this. Don't take it lightly. You need to go to class at least once a week. You need a trainer to TELL YOU what to do and that you can call to help you when you have difficulties. You need to train the dog several times every day. Little sessions, 5-10 minutes. But you have to build your leadershipwith your dog as well. Training will help. 

The pup needs boundaries. Real boundaries. And then the pup will need to develop boundaries that you train, that you cannot see, but are totally understood.

Allowing this dog to run around the table grabbing food is far more inhumane than crating the dog while you are eating. You should not allow this for even one more meal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"She likes to jump onto a chair with her front paws or sometimes likes to just jump onto the table the table "

so she likes to jump onto a chair --- what? is she the centre of the universe in that house ? --- who cares what she likes ---she shouldn't even get onto that chair !
All four feet on the floor. 
She is near the chair - and she makes the first sign of her intentions to get onto the chair - she gets a meaningful correction.

you know how it began . Maybe it was cute to have a dedicated chair at the table for the young pup . 
Maybe there were some treats going her way . Permissive , indulgent , dog feels entitled and has figured out how to get you to back off . It won't end there !! 

by the time you have pushed her off you are in an emotional state , by the second time you push her off the dog sends you into a fear emotional state .
what happens after that second push and a bite?
does the dog continue and win her food from the table ?

what happens next ?

these are management problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Totally management, leadership, training problems. Which is to say, it is the human that NEEDS TO BE FIXED! 

I know I am yelling. But your puppy is close to being killed for having you and your spouse as owners. Killed. What you are doing is very unkind. You are not respecting your pet for the animal that she is. You have her in a role she cannot possibly fill. It is unfair, and unkind, and it will most likely get her killed. 

It is ok to love your pet. When you love your pet, you want to give them good things, and make them happy, and do what is best for them. You can do all of that with your pet. Giving her access to the table, allowing her to bite people, not providing discipline, structure, boundaries -- these are failures on your part that need to be fixed or the future is very bleak for you puppy. And, you will have loved your dog to death. It isn't kindness. I don't think it is laziness either. It is a form of neglect. 

We can fix this. You can fix this if you want to. You and your wife together. Get a trainer. Get a good trainer and work with the trainer. 

For now the dog will have to be crated or kenneled when you eat. It is not forever. As you train and build your bond with your dog, you will be teaching her commands like PLACE, GO LAY DOWN, OFF, LEAVE IT, and more. You might have the dining area off limits. And then she may be allowed in the room while you eat. In time, you might be able to put your plate on the floor for her to finish. But for now, you need to start from scratch and learn how to be a good owner, a good manager, a good leader, a good trainer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, you are 16? 

So, What are Mom or Dad doing about the dog's dining behavior?

I think you are being smart in knowing that this dog is getting bigger and allowing this behavior to continue or get worse is going to be a bad thing.

I would not put an e-collar on this dog.
I would not put a long-lead and a prong and correct it hard. 

A couple of reasons:
1. You are a kid. This dog is biting hard. This dog might go over a threshold if it feels the punishment/correction is unfair. It can be done without this.

2. The time for a quick, strong correction for an unwanted behavior is passed. The first time a dog does something, maybe the first few times, we can fault the dog, and correct the dog. Once it has become a pattern of behavior, we have to fault the human, and then we have to fix the problem, not by punishing the dog, but by extinguishing the behavior which isn't always pleasant to the dog, but it is more about changing how the humans act.

I would crate the dog while people eat. Again that doesn't fix the problem. It manages the problem. Allowing the dog to continue the bad behavior is the worst thing you can do. So while you are learning how to manage, lead, and train the dog, you are not giving access to this behavior.

I would work with the dog several times a day, plenty of exercise, plenty of playing with the puppy. Stop every game immediately if she becomes too rough. 

I would train commands like, OFF, Go Lay Down, PLACE, STAY, LEAVE IT, WAIT, DROP IT, and GENTLE. Until we have adequate progress with all of these, there is no point in bringing the dog into the dining area. 

Then I would pick one meal per day, where the dog is able to come into the dining area. And I would maybe begin with her there and put her in a down stay. After three minutes of staying down, I would praise and give her something from the table, taking it to her, tell her she is a good girl and then crate her again. I would build up to letting her be there for the whole meal. 

I would start with a down stay, and move up to a sit stay. I would train at all times when she puts her paws on me or on the table, OFF. if she gets off immediately, praise, if not, then she needs to be blocked from the dining area again. Immediately. 

e-collars and prong collars for aggression can escalate the aggression. If people cannot manage a puppy without these, then what will they do when the dog is full-grown? 

Right now you train without the distractions. The dining room is a huge distraction for this dog. Then, you start slowly to introduce that distraction back in, once the training is solid. The trick is to praise and treat good behavior before the dog slips up. Set your dog up to succeed, and praise it for doing so. 


Or you can set it up to fail and clobber it. Good luck on that. Better do that while she is still a baby and can't hurt you bad. I'm not a fan of this kind of training, because usually it is our own fault that the habit became a habit in the first place.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

where did this come from

"Ok, you are 16? 

So, What are Mom or Dad doing about the dog's dining behavior?"

Selzer I liked your last post on page 5. When I "like" it shows up as "you like"
how do I get my name on there to like a post?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NickZ said:


> Hey guys thanks for the ideas
> 
> It seems that some of you guys are getting the wrong idea about Z's behaviour. She isnt completely out of control.. she has improved alot since she was 2 months on bite inhibitation and overall. We definately set rules and correct her continuously but the problem is her love for food.. its amazing, she would kill for food. One time I tried giving her 5 cups of kibble to test how much she could take and she completely destroyed it without hesitation ( gave no more just in case). This seems to be the problem, she certainly is not underfed because she is around the average male weight so feeding her more probably wouldnt do the trick. Please understand that I have been researching constantly and* I know what to do and expect but just seeking advice from experienced people since the only other experience Ive had was with our family dog which we got when I was 4 so no puppy experience (im 16).* Ill be sure to do the lead advice, I will try tieing her near the dinner table whenever she tries jumping while we have dinner so she can learn if she jumps, shes getting absolute zero freedom. Ill will try this tecnique and see how it works thanks
> 
> ...


I just read through it again and found that. 

On the bottom of each post, at least in classic view, there is a hyper-link type "LIKE." I just hit it when I like a post. Then it comes down and says "you like" and that means that I liked it. I suppose that everyone else is seeing my name there. Otherwise I have to "unlike" it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Ok, you are 16?
> 
> So, What are Mom or Dad doing about the dog's dining behavior?
> 
> ...


If used properly at a very low level as an attention getter and disruption of the behavior an e collar can work. But only if used properly. That requires help from a good trainer.

I agree with the rest, except rewarding from the table. That has gotten us into trouble before. Now, I never ever feed a dog anything from the table. It's not their food, they don't get it and shouldn't get used to it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> If used properly at a very low level as an attention getter and disruption of the behavior an e collar can work. But only if used properly. That requires help from a good trainer.
> 
> I agree with the rest, except rewarding from the table. That has gotten us into trouble before. Now, I never ever feed a dog anything from the table. It's not their food, they don't get it and shouldn't get used to it.


 
I give dogs table scraps ALL THE TIME. 

My dogs do not run around the table biting me if I don't give it to them. 

One of our favorite rituals is to go to the fridge and get cheese.

I think my point is that after this dog has learned positively to respect certain boundaries, they will be able to do just about anything, including treating with table scraps. I did say going to the dog, not calling the dog to them and feeding from the table. But the pup can learn what is ok and what is not ok, and when it learns what is not ok, it will not be a problem to give the dog food from the table.

It's kind of like having the dog on the bed or not on the bed. If it is a problem, do not let the dog on the bed. But don't stop there, build the relationship, train, work with the dog, become a better leader, through training build that bond. Down the line, the dog will probably be fine going back up on the bed or couch. But while there are issues, while we, the humans, are getting our act together, we need to cut that behavior out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am sceptical about the writer being 16 . 

who owns the dog? 

why is the 16 year old in charge of the dog's diet "One time I tried giving her 5 cups of kibble to test how much she could take"' choosing Royal Canin " we use royal canin which is specifically made for german shepherds and costs 150 per 12kg."

her training -- "I am thinking of attaching her somewhere nearby during dinner and giving her some rewards"
I not , the parents , not someone else in the WE that is mentioned.

are you living independently at 16 years of age and have a fussy old peoples dining table'

choosing not to use a crate 

being in charge of her medical needs "Okay ill try taking her to the vet asap."

so someone set me straight .

there can be no progress unless everyone in the household is on the same page.
a 16 year old doesn't hold enough sway to influence the adults in charge --

It matters because it affects how answers , solutions are given.

Some of the training tools recommended by Chip 18 , for example , require purchase of
training tools . which a young person may not be able to afford or use properly, may not have 
the means to drive a dog to a training class, or to hire a personal trainer for the dog -- or the adults
may not want such outside interference.



.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It matters, because children should not be giving physical corrections to aggressive dogs that are biting people (if that is what is happening). Not being there, I cannot say that we have a really, truly aggressive puppy, or if we have uncurbed brat of a dog, which is my opinion because of the comments on not using the crate, and allowing such bazaar behavior at dinner. 

And yes, everyone has to be on board. If one person suddenly gets tough on the dog, and everyone else is permissive, you are just going to build the confusion and create unpredictable/aggressive behavior. 

So yes, we have to try and modify how we respond and what we suggest if the OP is seemingly in charge of the dog, but not necessarily able to pull off what we are suggesting.


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I am sceptical about the writer being 16 .
> 
> who owns the dog?
> 
> ...


She is my brothers dog because he is paying for everything but overall its pretty much only me training her, feeding her, picking up her poop.

Everyone else doesnt really want anything to do with her so yeah.

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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

I know its she has bad behaviours etc but its probably isnt bad as you guys are thinking atm. There are some days where she is amazing and others she is moody.

I think you guys are just takimg it the wrong way because I am just mentioning the cons about her behaviour but there are alot more good things about her aswell, just like how shes always happy and excited to see us and loves playing. Shes a good puppy, Im just trying to get some problems we re having out of the way atm.

Thanks for the help 

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Muskeg said:


> Leashing her somewhere is just a management tool, that is not training. Which is fine if you choose to manage this and not train. Crating would be the same idea.
> 
> But it's not training if as soon as you remove the physical restraint, the dog goes and does the exact thing you don't want- like jumping on the table.


Yes, but. Many, many issues are best solved with a combination approach of both management AND training. Training efforts are moot if you're not doing anything to prevent your dog from practicing bad behavior in the meantime. That's where management comes in. I don't know why it gets such a bad rap. Maybe because for some reason people assume that management takes the place of training rather than supplementing it. 

I managed Keefer's bad behavior around food when he was young by either crating him or putting him out in the garage pen while I was cooking dinner, because I couldn't fully attend to him and deal with him putting his paws up on the counter while also cooking dinner. And then separately, when I did have time to train, I worked on teaching him "off", and "leave it", and once he had more training, I could leave him free when I was in the kitchen, and deal with the counter surfing because he was older and knew what those commands meant. A simple hip check to bump him out of my way took care of him nicely. 

And guess what? As an adult, he's a dog who will absolutely stretch his neck out as far as it will go to sniff the edge of the counter, but he wouldn't _dream_ of actually putting his paws up there to try and take it. IMO, the OP's situation is crying out for some management techniques, and to dismiss that as "not training" is simply silly.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay , my apologies .

yet another situation where a dog is brought into a household and the person that does so abdicates responsibility.
don't take your dog's attitude lightly . 6 months of age and already able to back you down . She has gone rogue .
Won't listen to you , challenges you, bites you . Selzer gave you the view of things that can be .
Training and no nonsense order and parameters have to happen NOW so that this challenging-you behaviour doesn't bleed over into other aspects of the dog being under control.

the other example is the 17 year old , a member of a 12 person household, struggling with the GSD that
was brought into the house and she is struggling with behavioural problems

potentially different outcome , the other example would be the household where both responsible adults have other
time consuming commitments , and one member may not be totally enthused with a dog in the house -- responsibility
for dog care delegated 

getting a dog can be spur of the moment , impulsive idea . Find breeder , see cute pup, hand over cash, exit stage left with pup under arm.

to prevent this a breeder should have the interested party visit more than once - for the benefit of the pup , for the benefit of the new owner . The decision has to be considered. What ever "that" breeder has may or may not be a good match and so you go to look , compare, consider .

Sometimes the idea is great but the timing is not and so you have to have delayed gratification. 

So what happens from here on? 
Are you going to have a discussion with brother ?

Have your brother PAY and if you are interested in turning things around then you take her to classes.

If he won't pay and you aren't going to be truly dedicated (hard work ahead) then maybe for the sake of the dog , before the attitude becomes ingrained, then there needs to be a discussion about rehoming her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you should make a list, and discuss it with everyone in the house. 

Tell them you want to make this puppy work out, but she is only getting bigger, and some behaviors have to stop, now.

On your list, you should list what you want everyone to agree to when it comes to eating with respect to the dog. 

Add on your list something about getting her into some training classes, and then showing your brother at least what you are working on with her each week. 

Good luck with the puppy. Please consider a crate or kennel for the dog while people are eating, because every time she does this bad behavior, every day, it is becoming more ingrained, and she has less respect for the humans responsible for her.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> I give dogs table scraps ALL THE TIME.
> 
> My dogs do not run around the table biting me if I don't give it to them.
> 
> ...


That's a personal choice, but given this situation, I'm not sure this dog will ever be able to take table scraps. Isn't that part of what got them into this problem? I think they need to cut all table feeding and not allow it sometimes. We've already established months ago that your dogs are extremely well trained. This family is struggling with basics.


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## NickZ (Mar 12, 2016)

Hey guys some good news

The leash consequence is slowly starting to work. I noticed because when I let her off leash around the dining room she would sniff whatever is on the table and hesitate because she'll see me staring. She'll then just start walking around again sniffing but as long as she doesnt jump its fine 

Maybe a few weeks she will get it for sure 

Thanks



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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

she'll get bigger and be able to snatch things off the table .

I would have her out of that room . Period. We all need our own places . Dog and human.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NickZ said:


> Hey guys some good news
> 
> The leash consequence is slowly starting to work. I noticed because when I let her off leash around the dining room she would sniff whatever is on the table and hesitate because she'll see me staring. She'll then just start walking around again sniffing but as long as she doesnt jump its fine
> 
> ...


Unless there is some reason why she must be in the dining room (like its the only room in the house she can be in) keep her out of there until she has earned the privilege. Work on not jumping, on sitting and on the down command. Teach her Place. It's all been laid out for you. You are setting her up for failure when you need to set her up for success. Two things you should not do until she is trained. Don't allow her in the dining room. Don't allow her off leash. If you do and she bolts for the table again or gets aggressive, you have not only lost all that you've been working on, but you have reinforced her bad behavior.

Training isn't temporary. You need to work on it for weeks or months until she is proofed.


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