# Any experiences or opinions on this breeder?



## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

http://www.kennel-gim.com/


So we are still looking at all of our options and are not tied to the ASL breeding I posted in the Bloodlines and Pedigree forum. We still have much time! And I am debating between the choice of buying an ASL or importing a GSL. So anyway to make a long post short has any one had any experiences with this kennel or can you offer some insight into their reputation or program?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know the particular kennel.

If your choice is between ASL or GSL, what are your particular goals or interests for the pup?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Noodles said:


> Kennel-Gim
> 
> breeding I posted in the Bloodlines and Pedigree forum. We still have much time! And I am debating between the choice of buying an ASL or importing a GSL.


I'm kind of interested in why your choices are buying an ASL domestically, or importing a GSL. Why not buy a GSL domestically?


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Well I like to show in conformation but my husband and I also love more active events like Agility, Obedience, Tracking, Herding, anything we can get involved in. I know ASL's can do these things they might not be the best but they can give it a go. But I have always loved GSL dogs and I have this nagging feeling that I need jump in and try one out. I wish there were a way to combine the two into the perfect German Shepherd Show Line Dog! But until I become more experienced and actually have the knowledge to breed such a dog I kinda have to choose one way or the other.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm kind of interested in why your choices are buying an ASL domestically, or importing a GSL. Why not buy a GSL domestically?


Well I feel kind of lost when looking at GSL breeders I don't know much about the kennels and I honestly and sheepishly admit I hadn't even thought that there would be that many in the U.S. 

I have made friends with this kennel through facebook a while ago and I like the discussions we have had and his dogs are pretty to me... in a manly male dog kind of way lol


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Noodles said:


> Well I feel kind of lost when looking at GSL breeders I don't know much about the kennels and I honestly and sheepishly admit I hadn't even thought that there would be that many in the U.S.
> l


Oh my goodness. Lots and lots of fabulous GSL breeders in the US. Take a look at Huertahof in IL www.teamhuertahof.com and Alta-tollhaus in MI www.24kgsd.com

Those are two United states GSL breeders that do things with their dogs besides showing.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Oh my goodness. Lots and lots of fabulous GSL breeders in the US. Take a look at Huertahof in IL www.teamhuertahof.com and Alta-tollhaus in MI www.24kgsd.com
> 
> Those are two United states GSL breeders that do things with their dogs besides showing.


:thumbup: I second both of these breeders.

Robin is a wonderful person with gorgeous dogs.

Alta-Tollhaus produces gorgeous dogs like Nikon and Gavin. :wub:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you want a GSL that can successfully be shown in ASL type rings, you have to be more choosy. I was just looking at some photos of Debby Melle's dog Vogue who has had some recent success in the AKC ring. To me that is a dog that can show with some success in SV, AKC, and UKC. However I'm not really familiar with Debby, her lines, or if this is what she consistently produces (I'm not saying she doesn't, just that this particular dog caught my eye, and I have seen the dog in person multiple times).

My Nikon does fine in SV type shows, OK in UKC shows (would do better if I put more into good ring training for him and myself, but he is a Champion and I will keep showing him for fun, maybe to GRCH), but would likely not do well in AKC. I did some AKC with him as a puppy (like the match things that don't count b/c they are too young) and he beat some ASL mostly because his movement has always been tight, even as a bitty puppy he was never all loosey-goosey. But now he is just not the type that would succeed, even in the all-breed shows.

There are plenty of great GSL breeders in North America!


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

You take A LOT of risks importing if you don't already have a relationship with the kennel or person that is importing, or if you don't have a working knowledge of the "kind" or "type" of dog you are importing (i.e. working, WGSL, etc.). Many people that are "new" like the "looks" of a dog from a kennel, or may even like the website or the things that the person from said kennel says to them...but don't have the right contacts or the right questions to ask in order to make sure they aren't getting ripped off. 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't import, but maybe you should try looking in the states first...since this would be your first WGSL (if that's what you decide to get). There are some impeccable breeders here, stateside, that are breeding incredible working temperament in their WGSL. Huerta Hof is one of them.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Hillary_Plog said:


> You take A LOT of risks importing if you don't already have a relationship with the kennel or person that is importing, or if you don't have a working knowledge of the "kind" or "type" of dog you are importing (i.e. working, WGSL, etc.). Many people that are "new" like the "looks" of a dog from a kennel, or may even like the website or the things that the person from said kennel says to them...but don't have the right contacts or the rigt questions to ask in order to make sure they aren't getting ripped off.


I agree with this. I kind of get the impression that a lot of unsuspecting American buyers pay top-dollar for a dog that the Germans are happy to get off their hands.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Have you looked at Nocturne Acres? (Sorry I can't post a link, I'm on my phone.) Anyway, she has had success crossing ASL with GSL. The dogs also compete in multiple venues.(Her male Gator, is a Champion, V rated, and Sch titled and an ASL/GSLCross.) I know nothing about the breeder, not the dogs personally. Just saw a link in another thread.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Wow, first American bred dog with an SchHIII title. That's cool.

Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs

V Ch Nocturne's Navigator SchH3 CDX NA NAJ KKL1 That's a bunch of letters you don't see together every day. I'm impressed!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Emoore said:


> I agree with this. I kind of get the impression that a lot of unsuspecting American buyers pay top-dollar for a dog that the Germans are happy to get off their hands.


And if they send you a sick, ill built, and/or bad dispositioned pup, you are OUT OF LUCK. As they are generally sold "as is" with no warranty//guarantee. Where as if you buy American,( as in an American breeder, not just American lines.) many breeders will guarantee things like ears and males to have both testicles on a show prospect. And they won't sell you a pup with a major fault. 

As far as the breeder posted about in the first post, it always makes me wonder when a breeder is constantly using mostly dogs they have NOT bred as breeding stock. If the dogs that they breed are THAT great, why not hold back females to breed? It looks like they have quite a few dogs breeding dogs, but very few with their kennel name. I'm not saying a breeder shouldn't bring in new/different blood, but it just seems like they would keep more of their own breeding.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks for posting the link Emoore. 
Yeah, I'm not into ASL nor GSL dogs, but that is a nice dog! I would take him.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I can think of three breeders right off the top of my head that are breeding some really nice WGSL dogs right here in the states. 

Why import?
Sheilah


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

BlackGSD said:


> As far as the breeder posted about in the first post, it always makes me wonder when a breeder is constantly using mostly dogs they have NOT bred as breeding stock. If the dogs that they breed are THAT great, why not hold back females to breed? It looks like they have quite a few dogs breeding dogs, but very few with their kennel name. I'm not saying a breeder shouldn't bring in new/different blood, but it just seems like they would keep more of their own breeding.


Maybe they are more like a broker or a group of kennels/breeders than one small kennel? That happens quite a bit, especially with the WGSL it seems. I prefer to find a smaller, less commercial kennel.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Wow, first American bred dog with an SchHIII title. That's cool.
> 
> Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> V Ch Nocturne's Navigator SchH3 CDX NA NAJ KKL1 That's a bunch of letters you don't see together every day. I'm impressed!


That's first AKC champion bred in the U.S. with a SchH3, I guess. He's certainly not the first Sch3 from American bloodlines, nor the first AKC Ch. to have a Sch3 (a number of Sch3 dogs imported have gone on to get their AKC Ch.). 

Not to diminish his accomplishments in anyway--I love to see those titles and the time and love put into a dog who is going to be bred.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blackthorn thank you --- If memory serves me right Merkel's kennels had such a dog a decade or more ago . I would have to go through years of GS Quarterly magazines to find the pages.
The dog is there with the promotion that the ASL does schutzhund , promoting the sire portion of the pedigree , but notice the dam is GSL , and it is the dam that has the working degrees , a very nice SchH 3 , whereas the sire hasn't got any evidence of being tested in anything, not even a simple TT or CD as far as the eye can see.
Linda's dog Ch Mensenredder Cory Wiesental was introduced to French ring when I introduced Linda to my training club. The dog was already at a venerable age when he started . He did well. Later his son "Timmy" participated and did very well.
I believe Cory could have had that SchH - without excuse or embarrasement, better than many GSL that we see on youtubey. Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

"Timmy" after working in Ring , going into hiatus , waiting for the training director to recover from a personal health crisis , switched over to SchH and had to relearn basics of targeting on the sleeve . He got his SchH 3 , quickly and with good scores -- on a tough trial field full of working/sport dogs -- so no going soft on the dog from the decoy. 
That is the other thing who and what you trial under has meaning too. 
Timmy was pointed in the show ring which major point wins - remember Linda is a conformation afficianado -- but she left the show scene out of philosophical differences.

Not to diminish accomplishments either -- the person who had the dam , who did the training and trialing did a great job. (we do not know the dogs scores) .

xxx


I am curious and have some questions about the other kennel - Gim, obviously the man does an outstanding job being tops in what he chose to do. I was surprised to see he was 


I was Cheef Commander in Croatian Military Center for Breeding and training dogs for all Croatian Army in Ministry of Defence. Since 2004 I am retired and now I work only with my private dogs

I would think the dogs he worked with in that capacity were somewhat different. 


I am in contact with a recent immigrant from Slovenia who actually brought some of his GSD him to Canada . They are as new as ddr or czech was back in the 80's and 90's as far as genetic diversity . They are sable , look ddr type, (Lord type seen on the Gerhard Baumann site) , they are registered -- but after many attempts with CKC can't get the papers to register them here, so will not.

OP you do not have to import . There are many fine breeders right here in North America , that invest finances, time, intellect and produce a very good dog , Robin , being one of them . Please support local breeders who you can have an ongoing relation with as far as help and networking and just plain interest and appreciation in how you and pup are doing.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Wow, first American bred dog with an SchHIII title. That's cool.
> 
> Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> V Ch Nocturne's Navigator SchH3 CDX NA NAJ KKL1 That's a bunch of letters you don't see together every day. I'm impressed!


Not too be negative but he is German on the bottom. Plus, I would throw his Championship out as he is owned by one of the biggest head honchos in the ASL ring so would have gotten a CH if he had 3 legs....

But, he is still a nice dog!


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Hey Noodles..check out this boy: Stud Dog: DUAL CHAMPION SG GIOVANNI OF JAMBOREE FARMS (id: 113108) - German Shepherd Dog

I REALLY like him from photo but no nothing about him! What do you think?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ninemaplefarm -- that's a nice dog -- going back to the well balanced old style . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Plus, I would throw his Championship out as he is owned by one of the biggest head honchos in the ASL ring so would have gotten a CH if he had 3 legs....


I don't really think that's fair. Yes, politics makes it easier to finish a dog/get good ratings seomtimes, but regardless of who owns the dog, finishing imports or crosses can be really difficult.

Gator is a nice dog in general. If somebody else owned him, yeah, he possibly would have taken longer to finish, but he still would have.

His V rating says a lot to me. Even if he is GSL on the bottom, his type isn't really typical of what gets high ratings in that venue. Would he VA? Not likely. But that V is really nice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Even if he were campaigned enough to possibly make VA he would not because there are no titled (recognized) and surveyed dogs on the top of the pedigree.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

carmspack said:


> ninemaplefarm -- that's a nice dog -- going back to the well balanced old style .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Carmen...wow!! Woohoo- does that mean my eye is improving for a good dog!! hehehe 

Yes, I found him very balanced and quite correct! Why I spend all day searching for studs is beyond me. Pretty sad!! :help:

But, this comment, coming from you (who I respect tremendously as a breeder), makes my day!!! :wild:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Giovanni was in the "Dogs I Like" folder on my computer


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Giovanni was in the "Dogs I Like" folder on my computer


He is definitely a handsome fella... If only all show breeders would push for that, we might turn this ship around.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Giovanni was in the "Dogs I Like" folder on my computer


I just stumbled across him today (and put him in my "save" folder) during my intense search for the perfect stud (that I may or may not need in 3 years)!! 

But, if you are bored, would love to see your folder someday!!! *grin*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL. Some of them are in there for their head, their shoulder, their rear, their coat... there's a few in there for overall structure and balance, Giovanni is one of those.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Liesje said:


> LOL. Some of them are in there for their head, their shoulder, their rear, their coat... there's a few in there for overall structure and balance, Giovanni is one of those.


I'm with ya on that one!! I tried to google him but can't find a website.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> Wow, first American bred dog with an SchHIII title. That's cool.
> 
> Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> V Ch Nocturne's Navigator SchH3 CDX NA NAJ KKL1 That's a bunch of letters you don't see together every day. I'm impressed!


 


ninemaplefarm said:


> Not too be negative but he is German on the bottom.


What made you think I was talking about the American side? 

Honestly, I meant the whole dog was impressive. He's moderately structured and nicely balanced for _either_ show line.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Emoore said:


> What made you think I was talking about the American side?
> 
> Honestly, I meant the whole dog was impressive. He's moderately structured and nicely balanced for _either_ show line.


Sorry..confused American bred with American bloodlines!

Well, he is not my "type" of dog so I will have to, respectfully, disagree over his impressiveness! But, to each his own!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Well, he is not my "type" of dog so I will have to, respectfully, disagree over his impressiveness! But, to each his own!!


He's not my type either, but I still think he's nice. Brad Pitt's not my type but I can still look at him and see that he's attractive.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Emoore, I love your analogy, lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

does anyone know what Giovanni's pedigree is ?

no matter what it is , if the temperament was good I would breed to this dog. I see a place for structure like that .
Honestly without a word of a lie , I have gone back to that picture several times I'm so impressed with the balance , the bone, the nice feet (don't see as many good feet as there need to be) , the expression. I like this dog . Sent it to Linda to have a look at too.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Giovanni is German on the bottom, partially German on the top (I don't recognize the rest). I like the look of his sire too (just going by the photo).

SG 1 Giovanni of Jamboree Farms - German Shepherd Dog


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Liesje said:


> If you want a GSL that can successfully be shown in ASL type rings, you have to be more choosy.
> 
> 
> There are plenty of great GSL breeders in North America!



I do not necessarily want to show it in the ASL type rings. Maybe for a little fun but the need to achieve in that type of ring is not required. A more appropriate ring for the dog is fine for me and events are more my focus with this one. 

Everyone is recommending great breeders and websites for me to look at thank you.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Hillary_Plog said:


> You take A LOT of risks importing if you don't already have a relationship with the kennel or person that is importing, or if you don't have a working knowledge of the "kind" or "type" of dog you are importing (i.e. working, WGSL, etc.).
> 
> I'm not saying that you shouldn't import, but maybe you should try looking in the states first...since this would be your first WGSL (if that's what you decide to get). There are some impeccable breeders here, stateside, that are breeding incredible working temperament in their WGSL. Huerta Hof is one of them.


Is it appropriate to refer to the kind of dog I am looking for as a WGSL? I have only heard and used GSL in my searches.... I might be missing something here lol


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> And if they send you a sick, ill built, and/or bad dispositioned pup, you are OUT OF LUCK. As they are generally sold "as is" with no warranty//guarantee.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> If I import it will most likely be an adult dog and not a puppy, but if something special came along I could be persuaded. I will go to visit meet the breeder and kennel in person and then go again to pick up the dog or puppy.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

sit said:


> I can think of three breeders right off the top of my head that are breeding some really nice WGSL dogs right here in the states.
> 
> Why import?
> Sheilah


If they are different from the others that have been suggested please let me know who they are.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Hey Noodles..check out this boy: Stud Dog: DUAL CHAMPION SG GIOVANNI OF JAMBOREE FARMS (id: 113108) - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> I REALLY like him from photo but no nothing about him! What do you think?



He is nice... you are all going to shoot me for saying this but he is nice for a moderate dog *ducks and covers* ya I'm sorry


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> He's not my type either, but I still think he's nice. Brad Pitt's not my type but I can still look at him and see that he's attractive.



lol!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Noodles said:


> Is it appropriate to refer to the kind of dog I am looking for as a WGSL? I have only heard and used GSL in my searches.... I might be missing something here lol


Yes. Both terms are acceptable.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Female for sale: BLACK TOP SHOW FEMALE !!!! (id: 142207) - German Shepherd Dog

this is my kinda dog... just saying looks wise... luv it!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

She's an attractive bitch. Black GSL's are pretty rare.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

maybe I'm surrounded by too many black dogs -- not exactly rare -- and this dog has a roach back -- 
and the Giovanni dog is basically German show -- 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> maybe I'm surrounded by too many black dogs -- not exactly rare -- and this dog has a roach back --
> and the Giovanni dog is basically German show --
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



At no time does this dogs back arch above its withers so how is a roach back?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> maybe I'm surrounded by too many black dogs -- not exactly rare -- ]


I didn't say black dogs were rare, I said black WGSL dogs are rare. 99.8% of them are some variation on black and red.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so you did Emoore . Where is the black recessive coming from . I see it on the sire , but not on the dam ? 
Carmen


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> so you did Emoore . Where is the black recessive coming from . I see it on the sire , but not on the dam ?
> Carmen


That's a good question and I was wondering about that too. Kinda hard to believe that many b&t's in a row were carrying black recessive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is your roach back -- Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Nice photos of ALL the toplines described:

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Those are some super nice illustrations of the toplines. However, some of them are so similar that it's hard to determine the difference (NB: I didn't read the text on the page). Grabbing the images and putting them into photoshop layers allows me to A/B them switching back and forth between the correct and the *whatever* to see the difference. Super helpful! I could make an animated gif out of these, but the copyright stuff might be an issue.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm going against the grain on this one.......
Personally....I like the overall appearance of the young, solid black female.
I don't completely "understand" the color pattern in her pedigree, at first glance....(too early and I haven't really looked).
As for the whole "roach back thing"......ALTHOUGH, I do appreciate Linda's years in illustration AND her opinion......her "revised" illustration of a "roach back" is not how the SV or many past illustrations (of such a topline) is perceived.
A "roach" in a topline is when the middle of the back is higher than both the wither and the croup area.....that is different from a slight "curve" in the back.
I *prefer* a slightly straighter topline.....but I would in no way discard a dog that has such a topline by considering it a roached topline.
*There was a very prominent SV judge here a year or so ago.....who also judges the working venues in Germany. He talked somewhat about the dogs of yester year, today and hopefully the future. He also has been a breeder for over 40+ years...and has seen and judges some of Germany's finest, including the dogs many respect in SL as well in WL.
He included in his "talk" the toplines, what has happened and what are actually roached, level, flat, and normal.....Linda's illustration is NOT what he termed "roach"......however, over the past couple of years.....many enthusiasts have decided that it is.
Because I don't really have the time this morning (gotta go to work)...and if I didn't HATE when people post pics of other people's dogs (simply to ridicule or critique)...I would post pics of IMO, a true roach back is. *I also wish that I could find the SV illustration...they had one in one of their monthly magazines*.
So...I guess I'm saying.....I appreciate the opinions and illustrations of a well know enthusiast...but I do not agree on her illustrated opinion.
Sorry Carmen....I know that you are friends and you agree and value her opinion.
(this time...I just disagree).


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

There are many great breeders of GSL in the US. I'm sure that you can get a ton of suggestions from the folks on the board. I'm not sure how many have mentioned it but if you have thoughts of showing your GSL in an AKC show, you should be prepared for some unhappy results. Following is an excerpt from a post that I put up last October.

Since I train the puppies that I decide to keep from our litters to be therapy dogs I’m not really much into confirmation showing but, at the time, it seemed like a fun thing to try since there was a Sieger show 130 miles from us. ARA was entered in the 12 to 18 month class. She actually did quite well considering that neither of us had ever been in a show ring. I later had a chance to talk to the judge and she was quite complimentary. Keep in mind that our dogs are German bred and this was a Sieger show. 
The following week, much against the advice of our fellow “German” breeders, we entered ARA in to an all breed, AKC show. It was a disaster!!! The judge told me, point blank, that there was NOTHING about her that he liked. She totally lacked the sleek, streamlined, look of today’s GSDs. I asked him how he expected that sleek, streamlined, steeply angulated GSD to spend an entire day working in the field herding cattle or sheep. His answer was reflective of how much some of these judges know about the breed. “They are not intended for that purpose”. Oh boy so much for knowledgeable judges!!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Not too be negative but he is German on the bottom. Plus, I would throw his Championship out as he is owned by one of the biggest head honchos in the ASL ring so would have gotten a CH if he had 3 legs....
> 
> But, he is still a nice dog!


Which was the point of me posting about him in the first place. The fact that he is an ASL/GSL CROSS. That also does something besides conformation showing.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> I'm going against the grain on this one.......
> Personally....I like the overall appearance of the young, solid black female.
> I don't completely "understand" the color pattern in her pedigree, at first glance....(too early and I haven't really looked).
> As for the whole "roach back thing"......ALTHOUGH, I do appreciate Linda's years in illustration AND her opinion......her "revised" illustration of a "roach back" is not how the SV or many past illustrations (of such a topline) is perceived.
> ...


The reason the black coloring doesn't make sense is that I'm pretty sure that is a case of the return of the dominant black gene. The sire line produce black pups from every litter, no matter the bloodlines. There is also an unbroken line of solid black dogs leading back to a solid black female who was from the old DDR lines from Cold War days.

As far as the toplines discussion, I'm enjoying reading this analysis of the standard written by a NZ GSD person: 
*"A Discussion Paper on the Structure of the German Shepherd Dog" -- GSDCA Website - Articles*

Around about page 17, he really gets into the topline discussion and how it has evolved over the last 25 years, including showing examples of the Siegers and how their selection has led the way for the change in the shape of the conformation-winning type. Interesting reading!


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> The reason the black coloring doesn't make sense is that I'm pretty sure that is a case of the return of the dominant black gene. The sire line produce black pups from every litter, no matter the bloodlines. There is also an unbroken line of solid black dogs leading back to a solid black female who was from the old DDR lines from Cold War days.
> !


I think you are right all I am finding is black following this line through production and predecessors and their production. Hmmmm. That's a valuable trait in the right hands.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Noodles said:


> I think you are right all I am finding is black following this line through production and predecessors and their production. Hmmmm. That's a valuable trait in the right hands.


Some of the progeny from her grand sire on her sires side are not black. Most are but some aren't. What do they call a gene when it is generally dominant but sometimes surprises you... I can't remember..... crap


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Noodles said:


> Some of the progeny from her grand sire on her sires side are not black. Most are but some aren't. What do they call a gene when it is generally dominant but sometimes surprises you... I can't remember..... crap


The dogs who do not have the dominant black gene are not going to be black. But any dog who inherits the gene (approx 50% if the parent is heterozygous, which is likely) will be black. That means, also, that no matter the color genetics behind the other parent, some of the puppies will be black. So, only one parent line going back will need to be black, but one of the parents will always be black--*if* it is the dominant black gene.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Robin , the roach would show in movement , as it does here , this is not a level topline . Some people call it a banana back . Does that help with the visualization?

Blackthorn -- in the Willis book of GSD genetics he says that dominant black is not in the genetics of GSD , but that all data shows that recessive black is the only form in GSD.
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There is also an unbroken line of solid black dogs leading back to a solid black female who was from the old DDR lines from Cold War days.


Can you find out who this would be. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Robin , or anyone for that matter, the web site that Linda has is inter active , that is one of the new features. You can propose a topic for indepth discussion .

Carmen


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Robin , the roach would show in movement , as it does here , this is not a level topline . Some people call it a banana back . Does that help with the visualization?


Would you consider this dog to have a roached back since he can be stacked like this as well? I use this as an example to illustrate that stacking can have a large effect on what the dog looks like.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

We are looking at WGSL breeders state side. One we have come across that we like is Haus Juris. I appreciate all your recommendations if anyone has any more please let me know!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We will be training with a couple that are part of the Haus Juris Team, here at my home on Sunday. I think they are bringing a couple of young pups with them.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> We will be training with a couple that are part of the Haus Juris Team, here at my home on Sunday. I think they are bringing a couple of young pups with them.


Let me know how you find them and the dogs. If you could please!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I have known Megan for years and would not hesitate to do business with her. She imports some quality dogs. I do not know what dogs she is breeding right now or whether she has the "right dog for you" or the right price for what you want, nor do I know what her puppy contract covers. I think most of her dogs and breeding females are imports, not necessarily dogs that are from her own breeding program. Her dogs have always looked healthy and well cared for when I've seen them, and she has very nice facilities.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Megan has always been very nice to us as well......(but I don't have a personal relationship with her like Christine...so I can only comment regarding the times we have been together at events.)
I will let you know how training goes.....I'm happy that we can assist them!


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