# Qpinion on pedigree



## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Can anyone comment on what type of pups are expected from this pairing?

Thanks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very strong dogs with perhaps more reactive aggression than I like for my tastes....still I think there's a place for breedings like this.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I dont see a pedigree


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Very strong dogs with perhaps more reactive aggression than I like for my tastes....still I think there's a place for breedings like this.


Thanks


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Ace952 said:


> I dont see a pedigree


It's there, click to enlarge.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Anyone else?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A lot of aggression and hardness, but not enough balance for my tastes. Ugly dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

eeek! strong maybe - aggressive surely.....agreed with Lisa and Cliff...although not sure of demographic who'd want this much aggression.........

Lee


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

would someone be kind enough to explain what specifically in this pedigree makes it undesirable?


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Are the main culprits Crok and Asko? What type of aggression are you refering to?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

3 lines to Mink, 2 through Crok with the dam being very closely linebred on Crok. Then Asko and Karlo. All dogs known for producing very strong aggression. That right there makes the pedigree very heavily loaded toward aggression, both active and reactive, and somewhat lower thresholds for aggression (sharpness). None of these are bad things in the a correct amount, not too much, and when other traits are combined in to bring balance. Too much of a good thing, in this case aggression and hardness, becomes a bad thing. Particularly when that is coupled with a propensity for lack of clarity and control and being too quick to trigger, which this could produce. I agree with the others that the rest of the pedigree doesn't provide enough to bring that balance. There is not nearly enough nerve strength or clear headedness in the other lines of this pedigree to bring that balance. Instead the other lines can add more to the problem, bringing in dogs like Fero and Sagus, both who will again lower thresholds, bring more sharpness and lack of clarity and "thin" nerve resulting in dogs that are not only be quick to trigger and overload in aggression, but the aggression they display can be more of a frantic, hectic, anger management issue type of aggression that is without purpose, focus or control.

I personally love Mink and Karlo, these are 2 of my favorite bloodlines and I like how they can combine together as well, if other parts of the pedigree bring that balance. But I don't see that here.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I see angry dogs. No tolerance or forgiveness will get the upper hand , intimidate the owner , for handler mistakes , some as simple as too long eye contact . In one of the clubs I belonged to there was a dog like this . The handler was on edge all the time. He didn't want to raise his voice, look at the dog , give leash corrections. He had the wounds on his arms . In bite work , there is another issue , because I was vocal about this dog NOT getting bite work at all , but the trainer's thinking was that biting with a target allowed him to vent, let some pressure out. When the dog did bite his eyes were bloodshot . It was like he entered another zone. The dog finally bit up the guys wife who was hospitalized and , shake my head, both the husband and the victim woman felt for the dog and allowed him to live. This dog was not balanced in the head. He came from a pedigree that was built on more and more of one feature. More is not better.
This is sort of what I expect from this combination. 
Know of a dog this moment being worked that has the handler intimidated with good reason - yet they keep on training . 

I won't tolerate that kind of crazy aggression. When working with a k9 you have to know that you and the dog are on the same team. 

I had imported a dog once that was so crazy I asked a police k9 handler friend of mine for a second opinion. I remember the phone conversation as if it was yesterday . (it wasn't - it was over 20 years ago). He said aw come on Carmen you know your dogs you don't need my opinion. The problem was that I wanted it to be other than what I had before me. 

My son could come up the driveway after being dropped off by the school bus. He could visit with the dog who had been at my place for less than 2 weeks . For a while I thought my son would have an interest in dogs in his adult years but he couldn't stay away far enough . He said he sees the hard work and the hours and the low returns I put in. But in the day he had "the touch" . He actually trained a few that went on to very high levels of work - Tasco PD Galveston , helped with Mirko PD Connecticut, helped and named Rkiv PD rcmp, later Oklahoma Max Prisons.
Just so that you know that he had an eye and a feel for dogs. He would take this young male , walk him around the barn and back to the house a return trip of maybe 500 feet . The dog and boy would go off like some normal happy young dog , young boy , and by the time he swung around for the trip back I could see the dog totally resentful of being controlled. The final straw was that the dog was brought back to me and no sooner do I have the leash in my hand when the dog turns and was ready to rip into my son.
If you put him into his crate he would give you the hairy eye ball . If you held him too long on the collar trying to get the leash clipped he would tense .
That is the type of aggression I would anticipate with this pedigree.

I am seeing a few of these in the training clubs and with owners who way out of their league but want to belong to the sport crowd .

I happen to love the dogs that Anne listed in her group B , the resilient , high desire to work. I love a very strong assertive dog .

So is this an actual litter on the way , or is it hypothetical .


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

This litter was whelped 6 months ago.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay then what are you seeing ?


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

carmspack said:


> okay then what are you seeing ?


Pm sent


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

lemans said:


> Pm sent


Bah. Would you care to share?


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Bah. Would you care to share?


No I would not


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Well lemans you have to know what it is that you want to do with the dog.

Since this is not a test mating and there are pups that are 6 months of age why don't you contact some of the owners of those pups and see what they are experiencing , to date at least.

Ask questions of the breeder? Why did he do this combination. Was he as savvy as some of the folks on this forum . Test his knowledge .

Find out what the sire and dam produced before in other combinations.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

......


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

carmspack said:


> Well lemans you have to know what it is that you want to do with the dog.
> 
> Since this is not a test mating and there are pups that are 6 months of age why don't you contact some of the owners of those pups and see what they are experiencing , to date at least.
> 
> ...


Ok Thank you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think it is important to state (for those Golden retreiver German Shepherd breeders), that not all dogs in this perspective litter are going to have these traits. It may only be one or two out of 8 or 9 pups. But the issue for breeders like Carmen, Chris, Christine, Lee, and others who want to see this breed stay vigilant, is the corner the genetics are backed into when put together like this. Good breeders know the history of 4 to 5 generations of all the dogs in first 3 generations if not personally than by people with first hand knowledge. They know the hip issues, the different drives, the nerves, the body types, the recessives that may pop up with the dogs, the health concerns, the strengths and weaknesses. All of these things are considered than compensations are made in selecting breeding partners based on keeping BALANCE in your breeding. This is why some people end up with more than their share of "perfect" dogs and others get frustrated. It takes work, study, trial and error, being open to new information, not giving into your likes as opposed to what YOU know is needed. When you load up on extremes,(whether it is aggression, angulation, color, big heads, drive, specialized structure)then you go out of balance....that is not good!!!...but what is worse is the refusal to breed to dogs that will correct these issues because you want to retain your specialized likes....This is what has happened all too often and this is what I see in this mating....just a little too much swing in one direction.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Here he is, picked him up from the airport yesterday. 

Will let you know how this little monster turns out. So far, his drive is off the chart, loud noise, dark rooms, shiny floors, heights, nothing fazes him.

My boy Wotan vom Haus Loschan, call name "Argos"



















Wotan vom Haus Loschan - German shepherd dog


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is very handsome good luck and have fun with him


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Thank you, I will.


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