# Staged video of Kira's behavior. Aggression?



## Anthony8858

Please don't flame me.

(The kids thought I was playing a game, but I obviously wasn't)

This is an ongoing issue, and sometimes it's not easy to describe what's been going on.

My daughter had a friend over. I decided to leash Kira, and video her actions. I wanted the people here to see what Kira's been doing to all guests.

This girl has been in my home for about an hour. Kira's been "on alert" since she walked in. My wife leashed her, and put her next to her on the sofa. The young girl was sitting in a small dinette area with my other daughters.

Kira was lying down, when I asked the girl to simply get up an walk over to the fridge or recliner.

Please describe what you see.

It's an ugly video, and I'm very embarrassed by her behavior, so please be nice.
I'm looking for answers, not criticism.


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## Gretchen

I see a very reactive, protective dog who felt the teen was invading yours/hers space, like she was a threat.

Old previous GSD mix was always good with my daughters' friends, who were teens. But anyone else in the house was OK as long as they stayed in their spot. Like the Maytag repairman was fine working in the laundry room as long as he did not leave. However she was not that fierce.

Molly is a lot more protective, mostly because kids are grown and we have few visitors. Recently we had someone come into our house to update some business software. This person has a lifelong fear of dogs. We put Molly upstairs, after a while her down slowly, our desk faces the landing of the stairs. Each time giving her treats telling her it's OK and the software guy ignored her. Slowly bringing her closer and closer on a tab leash, giving treats and using calm voice. He stayed for 3 hours. Molly would alert exactly as Kira did when the guy moved, we got her to relax on the sofa just like Kira. But I have a feeling Molly too would have lunged and barked if he moved too far or too fast.

Molly is getting pretty good with people that have come over, say 4 or more times. The people can move around the house, just not very quickly. Hopefully for you with repeated exposure to the same people while you provide some positive reinforcement (treats, toys, petting, etc) Kira will learn to relax.


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## Rei

I wish I could see the girl, actually. I know you said that she thought it was a game, but her question sounded apprehensive at best and there's a fair chance that she was nervous. I am basing this off of your wife's promise that she "won't let [Kira] get to [her]".

It didn't look like an aggressive response to me, just excitement and reactivity. She seemed to sense that something was about to happen beforehand, and reacted when it did.

I really just see a young, reactive dog in a tense atmosphere. Nothing ugly about her reaction. Undesirable, sure, but not ugly. It doesn't seem like an aggressive or protective response to me.


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## UnlimitedGSD

get the dog off the sofa.


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## llombardo

Just watching that video I see a dog that is in protection mode, which can be considered aggressive. It didn't help that she probably sensed the kids fear. If the girl didn't starting laughing or move quickly, I think it would have been slightly different. As much as I love Kira, per this video...it looks like the safest place for everyone and her is the crate when people are over. What would she have done if you walked over to the girl with you? Did she have any contact with the girl before the video?


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## ksotto333

I don't know what to advise except for crating, I agree with you this is unacceptable. I know from reading your posts how hard you work with her, and I'm sorry you are having issues with her. Tessa would be kenneled before anyone entered my house if this was her behavior. I would hate to have something happen to a guest, and have Kira suffer the consequences.


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## Anthony8858

Rei said:


> I wish I could see the girl, actually. I know you said that she thought it was a game, but her question sounded apprehensive at best and there's a fair chance that she was nervous. I am basing this off of your wife's promise that she "won't let [Kira] get to [her]".
> 
> It didn't look like an aggressive response to me, just excitement and reactivity. She seemed to sense that something was about to happen beforehand, and reacted when it did.
> 
> I really just see a young, reactive dog in a tense atmosphere. Nothing ugly about her reaction. Undesirable, sure, but not ugly. It doesn't seem like an aggressive or protective response to me.


The atmosphere was a bit tense, because of the staging. The girl did nothing, but get up and walk away. The giggles came from my 8 year old.
If I would have let Kira go, she would have lunged at the girl, and put her mouth on her arm. Not necessarily bite down. But of course, that's not acceptable either.

Kira will act this way, with every guest in my house, EVERY time someone moves! She will know you're there. You can leave the room, and come back, and she'll act as she did in that video. She never relaxes with people in my house.


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## doggiedad

i don't think you need to test Kira anymore. i
think it's time you and your wife start to protect
Kira. keep her behind closed doors or crated when
you have guest. find a behaviourist. good luck.


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## ksotto333

llombardo said:


> Just watching that video I see a dog that is in protection mode, which can be considered aggressive. It didn't help that she probably sensed the kids fear. If the girl didn't starting laughing or move quickly, I think it would have been slightly different. As much as I love Kira, per this video...it looks like the safest place for everyone and her is the crate when people are over. What would she have done if you walked over to the girl with you? Did she have any contact with the girl before the video?
> 
> The problem is that he has children, they have friends, children laugh, move quickly and are unpredictable. The girl obviously was not a threat to anyone. I agree crate every time.


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## Capone22

Dont be embarrassed. I think videoing was a great idea. I wouldn't allow her on any furniture though. Have you worked with a trainer? 


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## Whiteshepherds

Fear or lack of confidence - either way, she wasn't happy to have someone invade her space. Not normal behavior for a stable dog IMHO. 

No offense because I know how much you work with her and how great she can be. I think Kira is one of those dogs that's going to bring you years of enjoyment and love, but not the kind of dog you can trust around too many people unless you've got her on a leash.


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## elisabeth_00117

I don't normally post on your threads Anthony but having a dog who was VERY reactive with people; especially children... I have to say something.

You are putting not only Kira in danger but the kids as well.

I am not sure why you are not listening to the others here with crating her, but what you did was VERY bad for Kira, and quite dangerous for the little girl.

You are putting Kira in a position that makes her react without any 'know-how' on how to fix it.. 

You really need her in a crate or you need to get a trainer with EXPERIENCE with reactive dogs.

I am sorry, staged or not, call it bashing or not, but I feel so bad for Kira.

Work within her thresholds, set up POSITIVE interactions and only stage something that will BENEFIT Kira.. 

That is all I am saying..


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## gsdraven

Rei said:


> I really just see a young, reactive dog in a tense atmosphere. Nothing ugly about her reaction. Undesirable, sure, but not ugly. It doesn't seem like an aggressive or protective response to me.


Agree with Rei. There is no protection in that video. It's a reactive response due to many different stimuli... the young girls' nervous laughter, your wife who had the leash wrapped around her hand several times and even your voice had a bit of unsureness in it. On or off the sofa doesn't make a difference if you allowed her up there and she's not doing it against the rules. I would have broken her concentration from the very beginning and not allowed her to watch the girls so intently at all. 

She would have been walked up and introduced to every single one of them and then calmly watched. If you know she is charging guests, she needs to be crated or managed better than what is in the video. This means actively working her when guests are around and desensitzing her to the act of people getting up and moving around. Focus completely on YOU and praise when she is completely relaxed (she was not relaxed in the video) and not paying such close attention to guests.


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## Sunflowers

Even from the beginning, she was staring at them and giving them the stink eye.
I would've corrected the staring before it escalated into charging.

In addition, everyone was nervous, the atmosphere was highly charged, and she felt it and mirrored it back to you.

But seriously, were she my dog, she would be in a crate when people are over. I know you don't want to do this, and I know you want a different answer, but it's the only good one I've got.


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## Gretchen

Anthony - what is the relationship between Kira and your daughter? Does your daughter participate in much of her care? Walks, feeding? 

The condition of getting our 1st dog was that my daughters had to walk her. They took turns every other day. One daughter hated to be alone so she would make one of her friends walk with her and our dog, Mandy. I believe because of this, Mandy was able to develop bonds with many of my kids friends in junior high and high school. The dog knew when going out with them she would always have a fun time. Do you think your daughter could do something like this so when her friends come over, Kira will trust them?


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## Anthony8858

llombardo said:


> Just watching that video I see a dog that is in protection mode, which can be considered aggressive. It didn't help that she probably sensed the kids fear. If the girl didn't starting laughing or move quickly, I think it would have been slightly different. As much as I love Kira, per this video...it looks like the safest place for everyone and her is the crate when people are over. What would she have done if you walked over to the girl with you? Did she have any contact with the girl before the video?


Prior to the video, I walked Kira over to the girl for a sniff. Kira was stiff, the girl put her hand out. Kira sniffed her leg, and hand, then walked away. I knew she wasn't at rest, that's why I staged, and was prepared to video.



ksotto333 said:


> I don't know what to advise except for crating, I agree with you this is unacceptable. I know from reading your posts how hard you work with her, and I'm sorry you are having issues with her. Tessa would be kenneled before anyone entered my house if this was her behavior. I would hate to have something happen to a guest, and have Kira suffer the consequences.


No doubt crating 100%.

I had a family meeting this morning, and stressed the importance of safety for guests. I warned them about zero tolerance, and that I wouldn't hesitate to re-home Kira if I had to.
Sorry, I love her to pieces, but safety first.


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## gsdraven

Anthony8858 said:


> *Kira was stiff*, the girl put her hand out.


The girl should not have made a move toward Kira. Attention ONLY when calm and relaxed.


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## Rei

Anthony8858 said:


> The atmosphere was a bit tense, because of the staging. The girl did nothing, but get up and walk away. The giggles came from my 8 year old.
> If I would have let Kira go, she would have lunged at the girl, and put her mouth on her arm. Not necessarily bite down. But of course, that's not acceptable either.
> 
> Kira will act this way, with every guest in my house, EVERY time someone moves! She will know you're there. You can leave the room, and come back, and she'll act as she did in that video. She never relaxes with people in my house.


The follow up behavior (the lunging and mouthing) does indicate something past excitement, whether it is high reactivity or even a bit of protection instinct or aggression. _Especially_ if this a regular occurrence and not something that was staged, with everyone watching Kira and holding their breaths. 

It was hard to tell from the clip without seeing everything else and how Kira behaved afterwards. My own has done the same on a few occasions when he was younger, but made no move to put his mouth on anyone and just asked to be pet (which was why I thought Kira could be simply excited + reactive). Our solution was actually to have the same person call him over beforehand with a happy, high pitched "come here, puppy!" and then ask for a sit/down/handshake before going about their business. 

At the time, if we had guests over and my dog was loose, we asked them to call him over before entering a room or doing anything that may get him worked up. They kept a few treats in their pocket to feed him after he responded to his name and obeyed a "sit" or a "down". Stranger in the room, or walking from the couch to the fridge? Training and treat time  Give Kira something to do _other_ than keep watch anxiously. Don't let her fixate, and move her focus to something positive.


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## Anthony8858

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I don't normally post on your threads Anthony but having a dog who was VERY reactive with people; especially children... I have to say something.
> 
> You are putting not only Kira in danger but the kids as well.
> 
> I am not sure why you are not listening to the others here with crating her, but what you did was VERY bad for Kira, and quite dangerous for the little girl.
> 
> You are putting Kira in a position that makes her react without any 'know-how' on how to fix it..
> 
> You really need her in a crate or you need to get a trainer with EXPERIENCE with reactive dogs.
> 
> I am sorry, staged or not, call it bashing or not, but I feel so bad for Kira.
> 
> Work within her thresholds, set up POSITIVE interactions and only stage something that will BENEFIT Kira..
> 
> That is all I am saying..


Kira will be crated each and every time. No need to worry for her.

As I said, I did this ONCE and ONLY ONCE to illustrate what's been going on. I wanted you to see her reaction to people in my home.
Yes, we were tense. Why? I really couldn't tell you. Maybe because I didn't like what I was doing, but had to "put it out there".

I'm approaching a point where maybe Kira shouldn't be here. I feel bad for her too. This is a bad house for her. She needs someone that truly understands the breed. I don't.


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## elisabeth_00117

Have you worked with a trainer with EXPERIENCE with reactivity like behaviours?


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## Anthony8858

Sunflowers said:


> Even from the beginning, she was staring at them and giving them the stink eye.
> *I would've corrected the staring before it escalated into charging.
> *
> In addition, everyone was nervous, the atmosphere was highly charged, and she felt it and mirrored it back to you.
> 
> But seriously, were she my dog, she would be in a crate when people are over. I know you don't want to do this, and I know you want a different answer, but it's the only good one I've got.


I normally correct as soon as she becomes fixated. In this case, I wanted to show her actions in the video.


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## Sunflowers

Never allow anyone to put their hand out when the dog is being tense and stiff. That is playing with fire.
I would also disagree with talking to this dog in a squeaky voice. I am actually not a fan of talking to any dog with a high-pitched squeaky voice. Prey is what makes a squeaky voice.
When someone they need to respect talks to them in a high pitched voice, I feel that it confuses and agitates the dog.
I like to use a low tone with dogs. It calms them.


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## Anthony8858

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Have you worked with a trainer with EXPERIENCE with reactivity like behaviours?


No. I honestly don't think there's a single trainer anywhere near me. Either a Petco, or some dog park person, that calls themselves a trainer.


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## Anthony8858

Sunflowers said:


> Never allow anyone to put their hand out when the dog is being tense and stiff. That is playing with fire.
> I would also disagree with talking to this dog in a squeaky voice. I am actually not a fan of talking to any dog with a high-pitched squeaky voice. Prey is what makes a squeaky voice.
> When someone they need to respect talks to them in a high pitched voice, I feel that it confuses and agitates the dog.
> I like to use a low tone with dogs. It calms them.


NO ONE can talk in a squeaky voice around this dog. If you make a squeaky sound, or a little whine, she will perk up and find you.


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## onyx'girl

It isn't about 'understanding the breed' but understanding her limitations because of her temperament. 
I have a dog that cannot be around young kids, crate is a given.
To re-home my dog.... would be to the rainbow bridge, because she would be a liability without proper management.

And you do understand Kira, you know what/who she is and that she does have some limitations as a 'family' dog. Many GSD's are the same, they aren't for everyone for sure.


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## Anthony8858

I'm honestly at crossroads.

I DO crate her. I refuse to KEEP her in a crate. I have kids. They're unpredictable, and will show up with after-school friends. I can't be on guard 24 hours a day.

I'm a nervous wreck that my teenage daughter will come home with a friend after school, and have a problem. I believe Kira will bite someone walking in with her. 

Catch-22:
I leave for work at 8am, Wife and kids, same time. Kids start to roll in about 2pm.

Kira is loose all that time. She sits by her front window, and bothers no one. I'd hate to crate her when no one is home, because I'm afraid of who may walk in with my children.
It's a nightmare for me right now.
This dog is such a part of my family, this conversation is ripping my insides out.


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## LifeofRiley

Anthony8858 said:


> I'm approaching a point where maybe Kira shouldn't be here. I feel bad for her too. This is a bad house for her. She needs someone that truly understands the breed. I don't.


Hi Anthony, 

I obviously don't know you beyond your posts here. But, at the same time, I feel like I know you due to having read your posts : ) You are a GREAT owner and I feel it is so sad that you think that somehow someone else can provide a better life for Kira.

Yes, you need to manage her reactivity to guests. There are A LOT of strategies you can use to accomplish that.... crating, de-sensitizing, etc...

You have a young dog. She can still learn what is appropriate and what is not in regards to guests. Do not give up on her!!!!

Also, don't forget all the things that she does WELL. It is easy to focus on one problematic issue and forget all the other areas where you find joy in your companion!!!!

Take care,
Anne


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## Sunflowers

I think it can be managed. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Is it possible to have your daughter come in, crate the dog, throw in some yummy treats in there, and then lead her friends into the house?
When people come over, I like to leave Hans in and expen that is in our bedroom. He has quiet time, and people don't have to worry about a scary German Shepherd around.


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## Rei

Sunflowers said:


> Never allow anyone to put their hand out when the dog is being tense and stiff. That is playing with fire.
> I would also disagree with talking to this dog in a squeaky voice. I am actually not a fan of talking to any dog with a high-pitched squeaky voice. Prey is what makes a squeaky voice.
> When someone they need to respect talks to them in a high pitched voice, I feel that it confuses and agitates the dog.
> I like to use a low tone with dogs. It calms them.


Well, I wasn't recommending that to Anthony but rather providing an example where I gave the dog something else to do other than fixate. If I were on the couch next to my dog, I would speak in a low voice to ask him to watch me or calm down.

When we practice his recall, I typically use a higher pitched/happier voice, and I ask my guest to imitate that. I do this knowing that my dog is only acting in excitement, and if the guest bothered to reach out, Trent would have just given out kisses and full body wiggles (the aloofness came with age!). The only issue _I_ was working past was the barking and charging that scared my guests. 

I'm not recommending this as a solution for Kira, because Anthony's already said that she will move to put her mouth on a visitor's arm if given the chance. I don't think having her off leash and running from person to person is a good idea at all. But if she is going to be in the room, she should have something else to serve as a distraction.


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## Anthony8858

LifeofRiley said:


> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I obviously don't know you beyond your posts here. But, at the same time, I feel like I know you due to having read your posts : ) You are a GREAT owner and I feel it is so sad that you think that somehow someone else can provide a better life for Kira.
> 
> Yes, you need to manage her reactivity to guests. There are A LOT of strategies you can use to accomplish that.... crating, de-sensitizing, etc...
> 
> You have a young dog. She can still learn what is appropriate and what is not in regards to guests. Do not give up on her!!!!
> 
> Also, don't forget all the things that she does WELL. It is easy to focus on one problematic issue and forget all the other areas where you find joy in your companion!!!!
> 
> Take care,
> Anne


Anne, thank you.
I have friends with GSD, and they don't go through this. It's a combination of having a reactive dog, in a house with raucous children. My house is always laughter and giggling kids of all ages. Kira happens to be sensitive to heightened states. This was evident a long time ago. I just didn't know how to apply the advice given to me. I was overwhelmed and always confused.


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## Verivus

Where do you live? Maybe someone can recommend a good behaviorist/trainer in your area.


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## GatorDog

My Aiden is also not the greatest around children. The high pitched noises and quick flailing movements just freak him out. It takes management, patience, and training, but it is not impossible. I don't want you to think Kira doesn't belong with you, because I do believe she does. I just think its time to alter the living situation to make everyone safer and more comfortable. She's an adult now. 

Kira is an obedient dog. When she starts to stare at people like that, I would correct her. If it means putting her away in a crate in the other room, then so be it. I usually give Aiden a verbal "no" if I see him eyeballing anything in a way that I'm not comfortable with. He is always locked away with younger children in the house. I don't believe now that he would seek out and go after a child, but I don't want to risk a child stumbling over him by accident and setting him off. 

Put her in a part of the house with gates and explain to your children that Kira is not to be approached by anyone other than immediate family in that house. No guests. If they are too young to respect that rule (I'm not sure of their ages), then building a kennel with a little doghouse outside is a great option for keeping everyone safe just while you're at work. That way she can have some area to stretch her legs and roam a bit, but still be safely contained and comfortable. There are some absolutely beautiful kennels out there if you've got the money for it. 

Amish Bulk Bin Hopper Dumpster Container 4000 LBS Capacity Fork Lift Operation items in PaDutchBuilders store on eBay!

Also, I know I'm probably close to 3 hours or so from you, but if you ever feel like making the drive up, my training club would love to have you. Maybe give you some insight to her reactivity and maybe she'd like to channel some energy into IPO. You never know..


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## Rei

Anthony, I just asked a friend/respected acquaintance about reactive dogs and she strongly advised a Control Unleashed class, or at least reading the book.

Control Unleashed: Creating a Focused and Confident Dog: Leslie McDevitt: 9781892694171: Amazon.com: Books

Welcome to Dogwise.com


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## Capone22

I happen to think your a great owner who is trying very hard to help kira be as happy as she can be. I don't feel sorry for her at all. I feel sorry for dogs left outside with no human interaction. You obviously were doing the video to get help. And a trainer will want to see it too, I'm sure. I would try to get someone experienced in to help you. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## onyx'girl

CU helped me to manage my reactive dog. I was lucky to be able to take a class based on the book. Still we have limitations. I accept my dog for who she is and who she'll never be. 
I just try never, ever to set her up to fail.


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## RocketDog

Oh Anthony. You are a brave soul.  I don't have a lot of advice for you but I _can_ tell you what I did, even with a dog that doesn't not seem to have a reactive bone (towards people) in his body. 

From the very beginning I was very careful in his interactions with my kids and their friends. As you know, I have 3 teens too, ages 13-17. We have kids constantly coming and going, and I swear we always have several extra for the weekend (I should really hang a shingle out on my doorstep, "The Martin Home for Wayward Children" but that's another thread). I am ALWAYS with the dog around the kids. Even now--I absolutely never allow them or their friends to play or handle him alone. RARELY, if it is a kid I've known for years, and it's just them and my two more savvy ones, and I know this is a dog-savvy kid who RESPECTS my rules, I will allow them to play outside if he's out there, but this is a very recent development, as he's approaching two. 

What this means is, I took control of every situation with kids (even mine alone in the beginning) and Rocket knew it from the time he was a wee pup. I don't think he ever had to feel that I wasn't there to protect him from anything strange. I am not suggesting that YOU did not do this. Just something to consider, and if you haven't done it, or done it to that degree, it might be a place to back up to and start over. I only allowed brief interactions also. Kept them VERY short, just a minute or two, and then I took Rocket off and played/trained with him, or gave him a bone, or something else. I also blocked off the basement, much to his chagrin. (That's the other side of this coin--he genetically seems to be very into kids. He has always loved them). I knew that kids can inadvertently "teach" dogs/pups things that we don't desire! 

Also, how "savvy" dog-wise are your kids? I irritated the crap out of mine with my mantras of how to "behave" and what "not to do" and "do it this way" and etc etc etc. The other advantage is, mine have always had a big dog, so that probably makes a difference. Maybe if you are able to find a reactive class or trainer, it can be a family thing. Doesn't Leslie McDivitt (SP?) "Control Unleased" deal with reactive dogs? Is there DVD's or videos you could watch in the meantime?


There MUST be a good GSD trainer somewhere in that area. I know you've met up with someone from the forum? Do they have any suggestions? 

I also agree that she is still young, still pliable to helping learn appropriate venues to release her anxiety. And I do think that she could probably "feel" some tension in that room. 

Wish I could offer more, but I guess I can only really offer my support.


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## Anthony8858

GatorDog said:


> My Aiden is also not the greatest around children. The high pitched noises and quick flailing movements just freak him out. It takes management, patience, and training, but it is not impossible. I don't want you to think Kira doesn't belong with you, because I do believe she does. I just think its time to alter the living situation to make everyone safer and more comfortable. She's an adult now.
> 
> Kira is an obedient dog. *When she starts to stare at people like that, I would correct her.* If it means putting her away in a crate in the other room, then so be it. I usually give Aiden a verbal "no" if I see him eyeballing anything in a way that I'm not comfortable with. He is always locked away with younger children in the house. I don't believe now that he would seek out and go after a child, but I don't want to risk a child stumbling over him by accident and setting him off.
> 
> Put her in a part of the house with gates and explain to your children that Kira is not to be approached by anyone other than immediate family in that house. No guests. If they are too young to respect that rule (I'm not sure of their ages), then building a kennel with a little doghouse outside is a great option for keeping everyone safe just while you're at work. That way she can have some area to stretch her legs and roam a bit, but still be safely contained and comfortable. There are some absolutely beautiful kennels out there if you've got the money for it.
> 
> Amish Bulk Bin Hopper Dumpster Container 4000 LBS Capacity Fork Lift Operation items in PaDutchBuilders store on eBay!
> 
> Also, I know I'm probably close to 3 hours or so from you, but if you ever feel like making the drive up, my training club would love to have you. Maybe give you some insight to her reactivity and maybe she'd like to channel some energy into IPO. You never know..


I always correct her at the point of her staring. I let it go for the video.

I do have a fenced yard. She goes back there, and she loves it. The problem I have, has more to do with the kids not following protocol. I know they're gonna walk in with their friends, and not pay attention to what I ask of them.




Rei said:


> Anthony, I just asked a friend/respected acquaintance about reactive dogs and she strongly advised a Control Unleashed class, or at least reading the book.
> 
> Control Unleashed: Creating a Focused and Confident Dog: Leslie McDevitt: 9781892694171: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Welcome to Dogwise.com


I ordered the book. It's worth a read.
Thank you.


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## CeCe

This is abnormal behavior for a German shepherd. I would contact your nearest shepherd rescue and get their recommendations for the best trainers in your area. It looks like she may need some private training. I think group obedience classes would also be good for her. In the meantime, she should obviously be crated or leashed while guests are in your home. I also recommend the book "Agression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff. Kira seems like a really great dog and I hope you can help her with her issues.


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## RocketDog

Anthony8858 said:


> I always correct her at the point of her staring. I let it go for the video.
> 
> I do have a fenced yard. She goes back there, and she loves it. The problem I have, has more to do with *the kids not following protocol*.* I know they're gonna walk in with their friends, and not pay attention to what I ask of them.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ordered the book. It's worth a read.
> Thank you.



Put the fear of You-know-what into them. This is where being a redhead and the youngest of 5 with older brothers comes in handy. I had one of my oldest daughter's friends say once "It's not Scott that Hallie's boyfriends need to watch out for, it's YOU!" :blush:

You're a New Yorker. I know you can do it.


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## Anthony8858

RocketDog said:


> Put the fear of You-know-what into them. This is where being a redhead and the youngest of 5 with older brothers comes in handy. I had one of my oldest daughter's friends say once "It's not Scott that Hallie's boyfriends need to watch out for, it's YOU!" :blush:
> 
> You're a New Yorker. I know you can do it.


Honestly, I'm tired. Dogs, kids, work, house, I'm overloaded. 

I can't police my family day and night.


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## RocketDog

You need a variation on this, except it's all about Kira:












Aww. Hang in there, friend.


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## pfitzpa1

It's seems that Kira has a reactive temperament/confidence issue, could be genetic or could be due to lack of socialization, under exercise, under stimulation. It also seems like Kira is lacking respect for her owners, though it's really hard to judge from just that short video.

Has she clearly bonded with any single individual in the home and is that individual providing her primary care/exercise?
How is her obedience? I believe good/continued obedience training can help build up the dogs confidence and forge the bond/respect between owner/dog (combined with plenty of exercise)

Definitely seek help from a professional but in the meantime practicing NILF and upping her exercise/obedience training might help.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

Like GatorDog said about her dog Aiden.... that's the same with Duke. Duke does not enjoy kids at all. They are too high energy with random movements and energy changes. It's too much for him. He doesn't react in that exact way, but he will lower his head, cower his body and growl. I have gotten him to the point that kids can pet him (he actually loves my 8 year old niece), but I am afraid he'll go off if a kid gets too rough or trips over him, or runs at him. So, he goes into the crate whenever children are here and I watch that that door into the dogs room is NOT touched, and I make it very clear when kids are around him (out in public) to NOT touch him. If I feel necessary (when I first got him I did), I put a muzzle on him. 

Honestly, this is something I would definitely contact a behaviorist about since you can't avoid kids altogether. Even if you just crate her every time, there is bound to be an accident. Someone doesn't listen, or dog is out to potty and then comes inside, out on a walk and neighborhood kids come up to you, etc. She looks very nervous with the kids being there.

It sucks, but you'll have to manage this issue forever with her. Best thing to do is get a behaviorist or trainer to help you nip it in the butt now so it doesn't go further.


----------



## RocketDog

pfitzpa1 said:


> It's seems that Kira has a reactive temperament/confidence issue, could be genetic or could be due to lack of socialization, under exercise, under stimulation. It also seems like Kira is lacking respect for her owners, though it's really hard to judge from just that short video.
> 
> Has she clearly bonded with any single individual in the home and is that individual providing her primary care/exercise?
> How is her obedience? I believe good/continued obedience training can help build up the dogs confidence and forge the bond/respect between owner/dog (combined with plenty of exercise)
> 
> Definitely seek help from a professional but in the meantime practicing NILF and upping her exercise/obedience training might help.



Kira I think, get's lots of exercise, lots of socialization, and Anthony is a very dedicated owner. Her obedience is stellar.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Anthony8858 said:


> No. I honestly don't think there's a single trainer anywhere near me. Either a Petco, or some dog park person, that calls themselves a trainer.


Anthony... enough is enough with Kira. I've read my share of your posts and you just can't do it yourself. You absolutely need to get a qualified trainer in there if you decide to keep her in that house.

I know a very good trainer if you really don't know any good ones near you. She's in Westchester county but I'm pretty sure she'd travel out to Staten Island. She worked with my parents and their dog. Not a GSD specific trainer, but she knows her dogs. 

You're really at a crossroads with her. She's been given more than enough chances and it's only going to get worse and she really does some serious damage.


----------



## msvette2u

I think kira needs to remember she's a dog...not a people. No couches for starters.

And implement Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong :thumbup:


----------



## Lucy Dog

RocketDog said:


> Kira I think, get's lots of exercise, lots of socialization, and Anthony is a very dedicated owner. Her obedience is stellar.


All of that is true, but he has zero clue how to manage her and her temperament.


----------



## Anthony8858

Honestly, I don't want to do it anymore. I've reached my threshold. No trainers, no classes, no behaviorists. I'm tired, stressed, and done.
I'm missing hours at work, because I worry what's going on when I'm not home.
I have kids having sleep-overs, getting up during the night for a drink. I hear her bark at them during the night.


Time to close this thread.

I want to thank everyone for their sincere help. I do know that all of you meant well, and I did appreciate all the advice.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Anthony8858 said:


> Honestly, I don't want to do it anymore. I've reached my threshold. No trainers, no classes, no behaviorists. I'm tired, stressed, and done.
> I'm missing hours at work, because I worry what's going on when I'm not home.
> I have kids having sleep-overs, getting up during the night for a drink. I hear her bark at them during the night.
> 
> 
> Time to close this thread.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for their sincere help. I do know that all of you meant well, and I did appreciate all the advice.


And this is exactly why you need a trainer and some private one on one training. To show you and your family how to manage Kira when you're there and not there, so you don't have to always be so stressed out. 

I pm'd you the trainer's info.


----------



## angryrainbow

Does Kira have a 'place' command ? Like a command where she goes to lay in her crate / a bed ?
Maybe try teaching that so when your kids get home, they can tell her to go to her place and give her a kong to keep her busy / distracted.

Honestly, when she laid her head down on the couch she was in a very relaxed and vulnerable position.
I think you need to stop correcting for things she shouldn't do and praise her for things she does do right (relaxing).
Are you not able to hold her attention when kids are there ? You can't give her a 20 minute obedience session in the presence of the kids ?

i think if there are kids there, you need to praise / treat everytime she looks away. everytime she licks her lip, lays down, shakes, etc.

ALSO.
In the video, it looks like before Kira jumps off the couch, your wife starts wrapping the leash in her hand, tightening it and bracing. This sets Kira off more. I know its because your wife was anticipating Kira doing that and saw her get so focused.. But I think it just added to the situation.


----------



## carmspack

The dog is very reactive . 
There is no in between bark . Movement of the child and the dog flies off the couch hackles up - fear arousal , in a situation which has zero threat . Fear . 
Liability. 

it's all here in this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ugly/217906-kira-charged-guest-my-home-6.html

and yes llombardo that was your evidence of "I have not seen anything that he has posted that suggests that his dog is a fear aggressive dog that will flip like a switch."
Can't offer anything that I have not said a hundred times before in almost every thread started by Anthony . 
Training will give Anthony control , but Anthony can't have dedicated focus on her all the time, eyes at the back of his head , which is what is required , or the dog is crated or kenneled . 

Training is not going to change her base temperament.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Anthony,

You are breaking my heart... you seem so down-trodden. And, if I feel that way, as a bystander, I can only imagine what you are feeling as you are debating what to do! 

Remember, every dog has its own strengths and weaknesses. I REALLY think that Kira can get to a place where it works for your family. She seems to have far more strengths than weaknesses. 

I know you said that other people you know with GSDs don't have the same ISSUE... but every dog is different. Work with the dog you have and you may be surprised by the results you get. Kira is SOOO young. You really don't know what is possible with her until you explore other training/management options. 

I actually think that when you tell your family that you are thinking of re-homing Kira, you will see a drastic turn around in their compliance vis-a-vis guest management protocols : ). 

Wishing you and your family all the best no matter what you decide!


----------



## marshies

Anthony8858 said:


> Honestly, I don't want to do it anymore. I've reached my threshold. No trainers, no classes, no behaviorists. I'm tired, stressed, and done.
> I'm missing hours at work, because I worry what's going on when I'm not home.
> I have kids having sleep-overs, getting up during the night for a drink. I hear her bark at them during the night.
> 
> 
> Time to close this thread.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for their sincere help. I do know that all of you meant well, and I did appreciate all the advice.



Anthony, I understand how you feel 100%. 

As you may or may not know, Puppy is dog reactive. Her reactivity is a result of many factors, not the least of which is my lack of understanding of HER, of the BREED, and of dog behavior in general. I did some incredibly stupid things when I first got her, much worse than you've done with Kira. I was no where near as brave as you, and shared very little of it on this board.

I've gone to 3 trainers, 2 different group classes, and one group class that deals specifically with reactivity. I have a very shallow understanding of how to manage her reactivity, and positively suck at doing it with any consistent level of success. Trainers have told me that I SUCK as a handler. After all these classes, starting my career out of university, working 12 hour days, I just said "screw this". 

During the months that I was using my class concepts to train her out in the streets, I could never take her out of the house without pockets full of treats and tools. I hated taking walks with her because I was constantly vigilent, and always wanted to make sure I was doing her reactivity training right, and that was stressful, a chore. 

As bad of an owner as this makes me sound, I got a dog so I could enjoy HER companionship, not worry about and manage her ALL the time. I have far fewer responsibilities than you, but constant management is really draining. And that energy drain strains our relationship, even if I love her to bits. 

At the end of the day, my dog is getting fed a great diet, provided with vet care, played with in a way that's convenient for me and fun for her (flirt pole, tug and training at home, with runs and walks late at night). Being selfish about training allows me to love her more, and live alot happier. 

It's completely your family's decision on whether Kira is suitable for your family. I wanted to share my story because I think this board represents a very high quality of pet ownership, and the dogs on this board represents a very high caliber of training and behavior. Holding myself and Puppy to this standard helps improve my skills, but also sometimes stresses me out. If the stress outweighs the small benefits I am getting, maybe listening to the board, and comparing to the board doesn't have a place in our ownership with our dogs.

As to management and crating. I'm not sure the setup of your house, but would it be possible for you to put up a baby gate or something near the front door so that even if your family wants to blow off your rules, a charging GSD will be blocked? Does Kira come straight to the door when people come? If she does, then your family member might be able to put her away at that time. 

Like you, I've thought long and hard about whether I am the best home for Puppy. Truth be told, I am probably not. But giving her to another family after I've had her for so long would no doubt be a hugely traumatizing event for her and for me. There is no reason to put her through this drama, especially if I cannot gaurentee the next family will do BETTER than I can do for her.

Please feel free to PM me if you ever wanted to chat.


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## llombardo

Anthony8858 said:


> I'm honestly at crossroads.
> 
> I DO crate her. I refuse to KEEP her in a crate. I have kids. They're unpredictable, and will show up with after-school friends. I can't be on guard 24 hours a day.
> 
> I'm a nervous wreck that my teenage daughter will come home with a friend after school, and have a problem. I believe Kira will bite someone walking in with her.
> 
> Catch-22:
> I leave for work at 8am, Wife and kids, same time. Kids start to roll in about 2pm.
> 
> Kira is loose all that time. She sits by her front window, and bothers no one. I'd hate to crate her when no one is home, because I'm afraid of who may walk in with my children.
> It's a nightmare for me right now.
> This dog is such a part of my family, this conversation is ripping my insides out.


Kira might be your dog, but you are part of a family, so she is the family dog. Everyone needs to step it up. I am sure that your kids don't want to see their friends hurt or Kira gone. There is no reason that Kira can't be out during the day and placed in the crate when the first kid comes home. Yes they can have the responsibility to let her out, then crate her, there is nothing wrong with her being in there for a couple hours. Once this is done their friends can enter the house. Have you thought about calling the local humane society to see if they have a behaviorist you can talk to? This is not something you can do on your own any longer, your family needs to understand what needs to be done and then do it. Kira needs an outlet of some sort...agility, nosework, etc. It doesn't have to be competitive, just for fun, but something she can do well in and enjoy.


----------



## blehmannwa

Anthony,
Please don't despair. Kira is still very young and there is time to adjust and adapt for both of you. I've read all of your threads and I picture you as sort of an old-school family man who only wants the best for his girls. Perhaps it's time for your girls to help you out by helping more with Kira's needs.
Best Wishes.
B


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## Anthony8858

Carmen, you're very right. Yes, you have been seeing and saying this all along. If I lived alone, and Kra was my pet, I wouldn't have a single issue to write about. She listens and respects me.
The video was staged, and under normal circumstances, I would've corrected her before she made her first sound. The problem is as you stated.... I don't have eyes in back of my head. I can't sit home all day, and dog sit.

My kids don't care. They wouldn't care if I got rid of her. They have no interest in her, or training, feeding, etc....
I told them last night, that getting rid of her might be an option, and they just shrugged their shoulders, and justified it.

You can beat me up all you want. I did the best I could. You may think I ignored your advice, but I didn't. It's frustrating to sit here, and correct, correct,correct, then no one else follows up. I'm doing it alone. It's become MY DOG.

I'm 54 years old.
She's become too stressful for me. 



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## ksotto333

My distant observation may seem harsh, but I have raised 3 girls with dogs. It seems that your girls need NILF. A family is a joint effort, and your daughters need to appreciate your time, effort and pain in this issue. I just can't fathom the behavior from them that you describe. My girls always had to pitch in and help, whether house work, taking care of the dogs, or at the business we owned. I hope this works out for you.


----------



## Anthony8858

ksotto333 said:


> My distant observation may seem harsh, but I have raised 3 girls with dogs. It seems that your girls need NILF. A family is a joint effort, and your daughters need to appreciate your time, effort and pain in this issue. I just can't fathom the behavior from them that you describe. My girls always had to pitch in and help, whether house work, taking care of the dogs, or at the business we owned. I hope this works out for you.


They don't like her, and they want nothing to do with her. I cant force the issue.


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## onyx'girl

Call your breeder Anthony, let them help you in placing her. They bred her, they should know that her nerve base isn't all that. Even with her champion bloodlines. Sorry you have to make this decision. I will say though, that Onyx mellowed out at maturity. Not sure you want to wait it out with constant management until Kira matures, though.


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## Sunflowers

I think that for the longest time, Anthony has been asking members here how he can turn the dog into a go anywhere, be around anybody kind of dog.
I think the realization finally hit home that this is not going to happen, no matter how many trainers, behaviorists, and other people he consults.
I understand that people here feel for for Kira, but we should also take into consideration Anthony's situation.
Being solely responsible for the care and management of a dog such as this has to get exhausting, especially when he has work and other responsibilities. Doing this with no support… I can't even imagine.

There has to be someone on the board that would jump at the chance to take her.
PS -- From when he has said before, I take it the breeder is not very helpful.


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## onyx'girl

RocketDog said:


> You need a variation on this, except it's all about Kira:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aww. Hang in there, friend.


I would not trust the younger kids to walk Kira...and it shouldn't be their responsibility. Many GSD's are purchased as companions for the adults, and not really 'family' pets. I would never want my kids to take Onyx out in public with the reactivity she has. Unless my kids knew exactly how to handle her and expect situations to happen(dog running up). It would be too much of a liability.


----------



## ksotto333

Anthony8858 said:


> They don't like her, and they want nothing to do with her. I cant force the issue.


I really meant this with or without Kira..but NILF may make them appreciate you...


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## Sunflowers

ksotto333 said:


> I really meant this with or without Kira..but NILF may make them appreciate you...


Anthony is here because of the dog, not for advice on how to raise his kids.


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## Anthony8858

Never thought I'd shed a tear.
But I did.

This little girl has captured my heart, and I feel helpless for her. It's not her fault. 
She always tries her best to please me, and impress. She respects me, and engages at all times.
This is a tough one.

I think it's best I try to go get some work done.

Kids are off today, and they had a sleep-over. I'm expecting mayhem, as soon as they wake up.
Wife went to work, and it looks as if I'll have to stay home to tend to matters. This is big problem for me.


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## Courtney

This is like that movie with Bill Murray - Groundhound Day. The samething over and over...

Anyway, a different prospective from what I observed. You set the stage for this. You are standing there with a camera, your wife has Kira on the couch leashed, tension everywhere. There is a moment when Kira looks over at you....I honestly think this dog thinks she's acting the way you want her to act.

Her bahaviour is bad, but so is yours.

I don't know....


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## Anthony8858

Courtney said:


> This is like that movie with Bill Murray - Groundhound Day. The samething over and over...
> 
> Anyway, a different prospective from what I observed. You set the stage for this. You are standing there with a camera, your wife has Kira on the couch leashed, tension everywhere. There is a moment when Kira looks over at you....I honestly think this dog thinks she's acting the way you want her to act.
> 
> Her bahaviour is bad, but so is yours.
> 
> I don't know....


Seriously.. DO YOU THINK I SIT THERE WITH A ******* CAMERA ALL DAY????

Do you read what i wrote. I ALLOWED this to happen THIS TIME. I wanted to document her behavior, so I can have a clear understanding what's going on.
Don't be a hypocrite.

I don't see where she looked at me. She never looked at me.


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## Caledon

Anthony, I'm sorry for your pain. A dog should bring joy, not stress. Management of Kira must be physically and mentally exhausting. 

Your kids don't like her, your kids friends are in danger. It will just be a matter of time till word gets out and your daughter's friends will not be allowed in your house. They will not only resent Kira more, but will resent you. 

You really put forward an excellent effort to train and manage her. This problem is too big for you and your family for where you are at right now. From the expert opinions on this board it appears that fixing her will not happen. 

Call your breeder and hopefully they can help you rehome her.


----------



## Courtney

Hey, you put it out there and I responded with my observations.

Sorry, you are not going to get a pat on the back from me for always "putting it out there".


----------



## Jax08

Would you consider sending her to an in house training so they could help her and then teach you the tools to continue?


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## Whiteshepherds

Anthony I don't know if you've ever mentioned this. What's Kira like with your kids when their friends aren't around? If she's comfortable with the family you have more options than if she's only comfortable with you.


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## Sunflowers

He doesn't want to continue.
The family doesn't like the dog.
I am convinced this adds to the dog's stress. You know how smart and sensitive they are. The dog has to be feeling these things.


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## Anthony8858

Whiteshepherds said:


> Anthony I don't know if you've ever mentioned this. What's Kira like with your kids when their friends aren't around? If she's comfortable with the family you have more options than if she's only comfortable with you.


Kira's been fine with the kids. They can do anything with her. 
However, only recently did I notice a change in her behavior towards my 8 yr old. 
She acted as referee as I mentioned in another thread. The kids were laughing in another part of the room, and Kira jumped up and got in between them. 
She was "huffy-puffy". 
Never saw this towards my daughter. 


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## Mrs.K

Anthony, I'm going to be absolutely honest with you. 

IT IS YOU! YOU are the problem. 

That staged video is the proof that your obsession in picking that dog apart is how Kia is turned more and more into the type of dog everyone suspects her to be. 

You have her on the Sofa with you. The situation is tense, because you all know what is going to happen and expect it to happen before she is doing anything. 

Get a professional involved. Get a behaviorist. Join a Schutzhund Club. LEARN how to truly control your dog and her aggression!


----------



## Wolfgeist

Anthony.. I know you love Kira, and I personally don't think you need to re-home her. Take a deep breath, and get off of the forum so you can deal with her issues properly instead of coming online to argue and feel bad about them. 

Many people here are very, very hard on you. You need to understand that you are not the only one with a dog that has issues. There are people on this board that have worse issues than you have with Kira. Personally, I think you will be find with a reputable behaviorist/trainer and management skills. Put Kira in another room when you have company, she won't die and wither away being isolated for a couple hours a day. 

Take my advice and take a long break from the forum here. I don't think many members here are helping much anymore, and the responses in this thread are leaving you feeling guilty, like a failure, and like you have an insane aggressive man-eating dogbeast. 

Stop posting on the forum and get advice from a qualified person that can help you manage Kira's problems. I agree with Carmen when she says this is Kira's base temperament - you need to couple training with management. Avoid bad situations, avoid stress. That doesn't make Kira a horrible dog that needs to be rehomed. Rehoming won't solve her issues, not will it make you feel any better.

I feel so bad for you, honestly. I think a lot of people here need to be a bit easier on you, a bit more respectful of others. I can tell just replying to people's answers is overwhelming you and making you doubt yourself and Kira. You need to know when to step back and say, "Okay, enough with the back and forth online with people who don't know my personal life with Kira and time to get help and work hard."


----------



## Mrs.K

Sunflowers said:


> This is so unfair, especially coming from someone who has had past problems with dog aggression.


No, actually it is not meant to be mean. This video set her up to fail. 

Get her off the couch. Join a club and learn how to control her. 

Set her up to succeed, NOT to fail! 

It wasn't a _true _video because they already know and expect it to happen.


----------



## Capone22

Wild Wolf said:


> Anthony.. I know you love Kira, and I personally don't think you need to re-home her. Take a deep breath, and get off of the forum so you can deal with her issues properly instead of coming online to argue and feel bad about them.
> 
> Many people here are very, very hard on you. You need to understand that you are not the only one with a dog that has issues. There are people on this board that have worse issues than you have with Kira. Personally, I think you will be find with a reputable behaviorist/trainer and management skills. Put Kira in another room when you have company, she won't die and wither away being isolated for a couple hours a day.
> 
> Take my advice and take a long break from the forum here. I don't think many members here are helping much anymore, and the responses in this thread are leaving you feeling guilty, like a failure, and like you have an insane aggressive man-eating dogbeast.
> 
> Stop posting on the forum and get advice from a qualified person that can help you manage Kira's problems. I agree with Carmen when she says this is Kira's base temperament - you need to couple training with management. Avoid bad situations, avoid stress. That doesn't make Kira a horrible dog that needs to be rehomed. Rehoming won't solve her issues, not will it make you feel any better.
> 
> I feel so bad for you, honestly. I think a lot of people here need to be a bit easier on you, a bit more respectful of others. I can tell just replying to people's answers is overwhelming you and making you doubt yourself and Kira. You need to know when to step back and say, "Okay, enough with the back and forth online with people who don't know my personal life with Kira and time to get help and work hard."


:thumbup:


----------



## Capone22

Mrs.K said:


> No, actually it is not meant to be mean. This video set her up to fail.
> 
> Get her off the couch. Join a club and learn how to control her.
> 
> Set her up to succeed, NOT to fail!
> 
> It wasn't a _true _video because they already know and expect it to happen.


In order to get help you have to show people the problem. A trainer would want to see this also. It was ONE time to be able to record it and get help. Every other time he has already stated he works on correcting her. 

At this point,I think everyone on the board knows how some of you feel about Anthony & Kira. If you cant reply with something kind and helpful, don't respond.


----------



## Mrs.K

Wild Wolf said:


> Anthony.. I know you love Kira, and I personally don't think you need to re-home her. Take a deep breath, and get off of the forum so you can deal with her issues properly instead of coming online to argue and feel bad about them.
> 
> Many people here are very, very hard on you. You need to understand that you are not the only one with a dog that has issues. There are people on this board that have worse issues than you have with Kira. Personally, I think you will be find with a reputable behaviorist/trainer and management skills. Put Kira in another room when you have company, she won't die and wither away being isolated for a couple hours a day.
> 
> Take my advice and take a long break from the forum here. I don't think many members here are helping much anymore, and the responses in this thread are leaving you feeling guilty, like a failure, and like you have an insane aggressive man-eating dogbeast.
> 
> Stop posting on the forum and get advice from a qualified person that can help you manage Kira's problems. I agree with Carmen when she says this is Kira's base temperament - you need to couple training with management. Avoid bad situations, avoid stress. That doesn't make Kira a horrible dog that needs to be rehomed. Rehoming won't solve her issues, not will it make you feel any better.
> 
> I feel so bad for you, honestly. I think a lot of people here need to be a bit easier on you, a bit more respectful of others. I can tell just replying to people's answers is overwhelming you and making you doubt yourself and Kira. You need to know when to step back and say, "Okay, enough with the back and forth online with people who don't know my personal life with Kira and time to get help and work hard."


THIS!

Stop posting on the forum. STOP putting everything out there. STOP nitpicking her apart. 

Get a behaviorist. Join a Schutzund Club! 

POST SUCCESS Stories instead of setting her up to fail every time you try to proof something. 

Just do the right thing for YOUR dog and YOURSELF!

Again, I'm not trying to be mean. But with everything you've done, everything you've posted, you already expect things to happen BEFORE they happen and I am absolutely certain that, without knowing it, YOU are the problem. That is why you HAVE to get a PROFFESSIONAL BEHAVIORIST to learn how to change that. 

Furthermore, join a Schutzhund Club. DO IT! Even if you have to drive two hours, DO IT. You sound like you are the kind of person who can easily afford that kind of training (  ). 

It will help you and your dog!


----------



## Mrs.K

Capone22 said:


> In order to get help you have to show people the problem. A trainer would want to see this also. It was ONE time to be able to record it and get help. Every other time he has already stated he works on correcting her.
> 
> At this point,I think everyone on the board knows how some of you feel about Anthony & Kira. If you cant reply with something kind and helpful, don't respond.


I disagree, sometimes you have to say how it is. He's got to stop posting these things on this forum and get a professional behaviorist that comes into the home and shows the entire family what is wrong. 

He needs to STOP coming on here posting these type of topics and get real help! For his and the dogs sake! 

Nitpicking this dog apart is NOT what helps the dog and this has been going on since she's a puppy. 

IF something happens, the lawyers will have a field day in suing him over because it's all on here, from day one!


----------



## Rangers-mom

Wow, i have to agree with the person who told you to take a break from this forum. It is only adding to your stress level. I have a 9.5 month old puppy that has never shown any agression towards anyone and just reading some of the posts on this forum i have become nervous that his behavior may suddenly change. Seriously, it is creating stress in me. This board is not providing you with any benefit at this point and it is only adding to your stress level.

You have to make a decision. It is a really tough decision and no one can make that decision for you. The sooner you make a decision the better it is for Kira. She sounds like a great dog, you sound like a great owner. I don't think that anyone on this board can tell you what to do.


----------



## RocketDog

onyx'girl said:


> I would not trust the younger kids to walk Kira...and it shouldn't be their responsibility. Many GSD's are purchased as companions for the adults, and not really 'family' pets. I would never want my kids to take Onyx out in public with the reactivity she has. Unless my kids knew exactly how to handle her and expect situations to happen(dog running up). It would be too much of a liability.


You missed my point, as I'm sure others did.  

What I meant was, either they start respecting Anthony's rule, or no wi-fi. Works well for my house. They learn fast. :crazy:


----------



## Sunflowers

You can't tell people what they've got to do. 
I suspect Anthony doesn't have the time for this. Or the energy to do this anymore. No one is listening to what he's saying.


----------



## RocketDog

Angel had a very, very good post Anthony. I hope you have a good day at home today.


----------



## onyx'girl

RocketDog said:


> You missed my point, as I'm sure others did.
> 
> What I meant was, either they start respecting Anthony's rule, or no wi-fi. Works well for my house. They learn fast. :crazy:


I understood your point, but I had to comment because children should not take a reactive dog out in public. They can feed water brush, exercise,etc.
But I'd not suggest walking  I don't even trust my husband with Onyx! Though I should give him more credit, LOL


----------



## Mrs.K

Sunflowers said:


> You can't tell people what they've got to do.
> I suspect Anthony doesn't have the time for this. Or the energy to do this anymore. No one is listening to what he's saying.


It is a suggestion. If he does or doesn't do it, is up to him. Nobody can control that.


----------



## RocketDog

This is in response to Jane:

I also agree. I was talking about keeping the doors shut in the house (as he's mentioned), telling their friends to respect Kira's space, stuff like that. NOT training or helping him out with her. I totally get what you're saying, even regarding your husband, heh. 

But...if Anthony says they're not interested, it will be harder and easier for him. Easier, because if he and his wife are the only ones training and handling Kira, she won't get any mixed signals or anything. But harder, because they won't reinforce rules that Anthony sets. 

That's more about what I meant.


----------



## Liesje

OK here's my take. Anthony I'm sort of in the same situation as you. Now, it's not as bad because I don't have kids yet, but my husband is not involved with my dogs. We have people that come and go (his friends, my family, acquaintances that drop in...and sometimes these people have kids). 

The first thing is if your family is apathetic towards the dog then you need to accept that and move on. IMO there is nothing wrong with that. You can't force people to like a dog or want to be involved. Heck sometimes it's better this way because my husband isn't trying to "train" my dogs and undoing everything I've already done! It sounds like Kira is YOUR dog.

You say you are not against crated but don't want her to live in a crate or kennel. Why? How has she earned the right to be free in the house, lying on that nice leather sofa sounding off at people? In my house a dog earns his freedom foot by foot. Puppies start out in crates/kennels/pens with structured and managed free time (yard time, playing with other dogs time, learning to be free in the house and not destroy it time, focused training time...). Right now it seems like Kira has done nothing to prove she has earned any freedom in your house and has in fact demonstrated several times that she should *not* have this freedom at this age. To me the answer is simple. If your family wants nothing to do with her and you can't be around 24/7 to police her behavior then keep her confined. If my husband wants to have people over or friends are coming over with kids and I'm not around, I have him crate my dogs even though they have proven to be OK with people and kids. Growing up with family and friends that do not care for dogs I just assume that everyone hates my dogs so I put them away (crate in the basement or van, or put out in the yard if it's nice) when I can't be there to supervise.


----------



## msvette2u

I always get the impression that Kira was obtained for beauty and (perhaps) status, a bit.
The feeling is, she's just like Coconut or whatever the fluffy thing is.
A and his wife have a very nice home and you'd expect them to have a little exotic thing like Coconut.
You might even expect them to have a GSD.

But why a GSD? GSDs are bred to be suspicious..."aloof", and even show guarding. 
So then suddenly Kira is being her GSD self, with a bit of spice thrown in for good measure (unexpected, that her nerves would be poor -IF they are) and boom, everything's going to **** in a handbasket.

I expected and anticipated my GSD (we've had 3 now plus 1 mix) to be a protector for our family. Even if just by "looks", which is best, but also if he felt the need to protect us with his teeth, he may do that as well if the situation warrants. 

If he's that type (guarding and/or biting) dog (the 1st two we adopted were not puppies, one was adult and the other was a 5mo. old puppy) then we'll do what it takes to keep company safe, such as put the dog up, introduce on leash, etc.

But my point is, I expected this and got my dogs solely for that purpose.

So what was Kira's purpose in the home? If people don't get a GSD for the protection factor, why _do_ they get one?

If you didn't want a dog with guarding tendencies, why would you get one that has guarding tendencies?

Do people get these dogs to just sit around and look pretty?
I think they are beautiful dogs, but I wouldn't own one if I didn't _desire_ some "oh, a big possibly mean dog!" aspect. 

I find this breed to be a good "deterrent", for creeps and would-be thieves :shrug:



> How has she earned the right to be free in the house, lying on that nice leather sofa sounding off at people?


This exactly. She's not a larger version of Coconut. She's a GSD and she's taken reign of the house, you've let her do that.

I'm BIG proponent of "Mind Games" which can help remind dogs they are just a dog in the house, not a furry person. It's a very kind method of exerting your leadership status over a dog. 
Crating her ass a few times a day and at night is not going to harm her although she may be miffed, but that's okay, because she's not your wife, either


----------



## Jack's Dad

Wild Wolf covered everything I would have said and did it better than I could have. 

I wish you the very best.


----------



## Mrs.K

> Crating her ass a few times a day and at night is not going to harm her although she may be miffed, but that's okay, because she's not your wife, either


Remember how I was against crating when I first joined this forum? 
Meanwhile I believe it is the best tool out there on the market, if it is used as a tool and not to lock up the dog 24/7.


----------



## llombardo

Anthony8858 said:


> My kids don't care. They wouldn't care if I got rid of her. They have no interest in her, or training, feeding, etc....
> I told them last night, that getting rid of her might be an option, and they just shrugged their shoulders, and justified it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am so sorry that they feel this way. It makes everything so much harder.


----------



## Blanketback

There's 3 ages when GSDs typically get rehomed - after a month or so of putting up with the landshark phase, once the puppyfur's gone and they're "dogs" but hard to manage, and right where Kira is: when a few mistakes in training makes it seem like the sky is falling. You CAN hire a trainer to come help you over this last hurdle with her. She's making poor choices because you've allowed her to, but her basic OB is wonderful (thanks to you, I'm not bashing you) and it won't be difficult to remind her of her place in your family, with the help of a decent trainer.


----------



## Gretchen

Anthony8858 said:


> They don't like her, and they want nothing to do with her. I cant force the issue.


I'm so sorry. I just made a statement about getting your family involved on another one of your threads.

This is the source of your problems, and you know it. Your family either needs to *want* to work as a unit with Kira or consider finding a happier home for her. This is so sad as we can all see you love Kira so much.


----------



## Mrs.K

Gretchen said:


> I'm so sorry. I just made a statement about getting your family involved on another one of your threads.
> 
> This is the source of your problems, and you know it. Your family either needs to *want* to work as a unit with Kira or consider finding a happier home for her. This is so sad as we can all see you love Kira so much.


I did not even see that statement. That could be the source or at least a big part of what is going on in that household.


----------



## RocketDog

msvette2u said:


> I always get the impression that Kira was obtained for beauty and (perhaps) status, a bit.
> The feeling is, she's just like Coconut or whatever the fluffy thing is.
> A and his wife have a very nice home and you'd expect them to have a little exotic thing like Coconut.
> You might even expect them to have a GSD.
> 
> But why a GSD? GSDs are bred to be suspicious..."aloof", and even show guarding.
> So then suddenly Kira is being her GSD self, with a bit of spice thrown in for good measure (unexpected, that her nerves would be poor -IF they are) and boom, everything's going to **** in a handbasket.
> 
> I expected and anticipated my GSD (we've had 3 now plus 1 mix) to be a protector for our family. Even if just by "looks", which is best, but also if he felt the need to protect us with his teeth, he may do that as well if the situation warrants.
> 
> If he's that type (guarding and/or biting) dog (the 1st two we adopted were not puppies, one was adult and the other was a 5mo. old puppy) then we'll do what it takes to keep company safe, such as put the dog up, introduce on leash, etc.
> 
> But my point is, I expected this and got my dogs solely for that purpose.
> 
> So what was Kira's purpose in the home? If people don't get a GSD for the protection factor, why _do_ they get one?
> 
> If you didn't want a dog with guarding tendencies, why would you get one that has guarding tendencies?
> 
> Do people get these dogs to just sit around and look pretty?
> I think they are beautiful dogs, but I wouldn't own one if I didn't _desire_ some "oh, a big possibly mean dog!" aspect.
> 
> I find this breed to be a good "deterrent", for creeps and would-be thieves :shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> This exactly. She's not a larger version of Coconut. She's a GSD and she's taken reign of the house, you've let her do that.
> 
> I'm BIG proponent of "Mind Games" which can help remind dogs they are just a dog in the house, not a furry person. It's a very kind method of exerting your leadership status over a dog.
> Crating her ass a few times a day and at night is not going to harm her although she may be miffed, but that's okay, because she's not your wife, either




You are way off with this post.


----------



## msvette2u

RocketDog said:


> You are way off with this post.


Not surprising you'd think that


----------



## Liesje

Why does the family have to be involved? This is confusing to me as I see in a lot of threads on here people say GSDs tend to be one person dogs and the parent(s) need to be in control of the training, not leave that up to kids. Kira can be Anthony's dog. What is wrong with that? I think the issue is not Kira being his dog but maybe him coming to terms with that? My family wants nothing to do with my dogs and my husband could not care less if I had dogs or not and it has never been an issue for us. They are my dogs and my responsibility. Clearly Anthony loves her and wants the best for her or he would not keep coming back here for abuse, lol. I don't want him to think the only possible outcome is giving her back. She can be HIS dog if HE can make that work.


----------



## RocketDog

Maybe I know Anthony better than you do. Your "internet analysis" of his intentions is completely way off base.


----------



## msvette2u

Blanketback said:


> There's 3 ages when GSDs typically get rehomed - after a month or so of putting up with the landshark phase, once the puppyfur's gone and they're "dogs" but hard to manage, and right where Kira is: when a few mistakes in training makes it seem like the sky is falling. You CAN hire a trainer to come help you over this last hurdle with her. She's making poor choices because you've allowed her to, but her basic OB is wonderful (thanks to you, I'm not bashing you) and it won't be difficult to remind her of her place in your family, with the help of a decent trainer.


You are right...we see them in rescue at this age, usually after someone drove them out in the country and dumped them, and we get them here and realized their "issues". Many aren't big issues but do make them difficult to live in certain situations (unaddressed cat aggression, or "stranger fear" for instance).


----------



## RocketDog

Liesje said:


> Why does the family have to be involved? This is confusing to me as I see in a lot of threads on here people say GSDs tend to be one person dogs and the parent(s) need to be in control of the training, not leave that up to kids. Kira can be Anthony's dog. What is wrong with that? I think the issue is not Kira being his dog but maybe him coming to terms with that? My family wants nothing to do with my dogs and my husband could not care less if I had dogs or not and it has never been an issue for us. They are my dogs and my responsibility.



This is true. However....Anthony has teenagers and unfortunately, as he has stated, they are adept at forgetting there is anything else going on in the world besides what's going on in their own (like most teens do at some point). He has mentioned they forget to shut doors, etc. Keeping the dog confined may play into this, especially if they're the first ones home and they have to take the dog out, or put the dog into the crate, that sort of thing. Also, if they have friends come home with them, that might be an issue.


----------



## Liesje

RocketDog said:


> This is true. However....Anthony has teenagers and unfortunately, as he has stated, they are adept at forgetting there is anything else going on in the world besides what's going on in their own. He has mentioned they forget to shut doors, etc. Keeping the dog confined may play into this, especially if they're the first ones home and they have to take the dog out, or put the dog into the crate, that sort of thing. Also, if they have friends come home with them, that might be an issue.


It will just have to be a black and white rule, don't touch her. If they don't want to be involved then _they don't get to be involved_. My husband doesn't let my dogs out unless I've asked him to. When I was using crates I would come home and they'd still be sleeping in crates or in the basement behind their gate. Now when I get home they are not in crates but I'm the one that lets them out to potty and then I feed them and tend to whatever they need. He is sort of like living with a teenager!  He says that they act like he's not even there. When they see me pulling in they wake up and get excited but when he comes home they barely move. They don't expect him to let them out or feed them.

I don't know if this is workable in Anthony's case but I just didn't want him to think that a young dog with these issues has the right to always be free in the house or that the dog should be interacted with and let out anytime someone comes and goes. The friends would concern me the most ("oh cool a German shepherd!...."). Luckily most of our friends do not like dogs so they would have no reason to wander around my house and start letting dogs out of their kennels.


----------



## msvette2u

RocketDog said:


> Maybe I know Anthony better than you do. Your "internet analysis" of his intentions is completely way off base.


Oh thank you for fixing the "you're" 



> So what was Kira's purpose in the home? If people don't get a GSD for the protection factor, why do they get one?


And perhaps you missed I asked a question...not necessarily for Anthony (since he's left the board) but for others.

If not for the protection factor, why do people get GSDs? Looks? Devoted family companion? I would like to know (perhaps a new thread?)

Because if people didn't obtain them for guarding purposes of some extent, what happens when the dog naturally does what GSDs do, and that's bark at intruders, etc.?


----------



## billsharp

> I'm approaching a point where maybe Kira shouldn't be here. I feel bad for her too. This is a bad house for her. She needs someone that truly understands the breed. I don't.


I have followed your posts with Kira over several months, but I usually refrain from commenting.

After watching this video, I was very glad to see you write the sentence quoted above. IMHO you have had the epiphany, and should rehome Kira asap. Congrats on being able to achieve a level of objective introspection that most of us cannot.


----------



## RocketDog

@msvette:

What Kira did in that video is not what GSD's do when they're stable. Children should not be targets. Anyone who has said their GSD has issues with kids has said they have to manage that situation. It doesn't in any way suggest they didn't get a GSD knowing that they're a protective breed and then not like it when they act that way. GSD's are supposed to be able to discern friend from foe. That child was clearly not a foe. Don't try to spin it. You wanted to dis Anthony because YOU assumed just because he lives in the big city and has a nice home that he didn't know what he was doing. Rather, I think he was not necessarily prepared for a bit of nerve issue and is learning along the way. I daresay I would put his dog training for basic obedience up against most of the dogs on this board and say she is under his control very well. His issue is learning how to manage her reactivity. 

This thread is not about for "others" and why they obtain a GSD.


----------



## San

Anthony, I’ve read many of your posts in the past. I don’t think I’ve ever commented on any of them. 

I actually think Kira is a great dog and you are a great owner. My current GSD is a high defense/low threshold dog. She is a reactive dog. Fortunately, our house is a very low traffic 2-adult household without children. Her life is very structured. We train her in ringsports (she also has a good amount of prey drive so we work her in prey as much as possible) so she has an outlet for all her energy. My GSD may not have the perfect temperament but she is perfect for us. She listens to us well and is very sweet. We really enjoy her quirks and our lives revolve around her. Given a choice again, we would have no hesitation in getting another dog just like her. 

From the posts I’ve read, Kira sounds like my GSD. I can see how my GSD would not be a good fit in your household, too many unpredictable things. I can manage my GSD’s environment, but I can’t change her temperament. If everyone in your house in not on the same page in terms of Kira’s training at all times, there is no way you can constantly watch her. You can only do so much without the help of your wife and children. 

Take a deep breath. Kira sounds like a loving and awesome dog, maybe just not for your household. It is not an easy decision, but I am sure whatever you decide to do, you will always have Kira’s best interests in mind, like you always have. 



Best of luck!


----------



## RocketDog

Liesje said:


> It will just have to be a black and white rule, don't touch her. If they don't want to be involved then _they don't get to be involved_. My husband doesn't let my dogs out unless I've asked him to. When I was using crates I would come home and they'd still be sleeping in crates or in the basement behind their gate. Now when I get home they are not in crates but I'm the one that lets them out to potty and then I feed them and tend to whatever they need. He is sort of like living with a teenager!  He says that they act like he's not even there. When they see me pulling in they wake up and get excited but when he comes home they barely move. They don't expect him to let them out or feed them.
> 
> I don't know if this is workable in Anthony's case but I just didn't want him to think that a young dog with these issues has the right to always be free in the house or that the dog should be interacted with and let out anytime someone comes and goes. *The friends would concern me the most ("oh cool a German shepherd!....")*. Luckily most of our friends do not like dogs so they would have no reason to wander around my house and start letting dogs out of their kennels.



Yes...this is most definitely an issue. Every kid that comes into this house thinks Rocket is the "coolest" dog! What really speaks volumes to me is he is only basic obedience with a few tricks. Definitely not "high level". I have not met a kid yet who hasn't said to me "Wow! Can you train our dog? Ours doesn't know any of that!" :crazy: How do people live without basic obedience?!

Anyhow, GSD's are definitely a magnet for teenagers.


----------



## Rangers-mom

Msvette2u said "If people don't get a GSD for the protection factor, why do they get one?"

I got one because he was placed in my home by the Seeing Eye as a 7 week old pup. By the time he flunked out of the program at 8 months old he was part of our family. We never planned on having a protection dog and he has never exhibited those tendencies. I didn't even know that people were afraid of GSDs before i got him. I guess i am just saying that people have all sorts of reasons for getting whatever dog they get.


----------



## Blanketback

Kira reminds me of a rebellious teen lighting a smoke in the classroom  Would anyone have the nerve to do that? Never! Are there teens out there who've wished they could? Yeah, I'll bet there are, lol. She looked very comfy lying on her side on that couch, and she seemed quite happy to tell the girl to get back in her chair. Bossy little bitch, lol.


----------



## msvette2u

RocketDog said:


> @msvette:
> 
> What Kira did in that video is not what GSD's do when they're stable. Children should not be targets.


Um...here's the thing, and others have pointed it out.
Kira was definitely "set up" in that vid.

She has a leash on (unusual for her I'm sure) and all systems are "go", to tape, but the problem is, a dog can sense stress and fear in the humans, and not knowing why their humans are stressed, often assume, because they are dogs, that there is something to be fearful OF. In this case the obvious answer (in the dog's mind) is the kids. 

Kira's misinterpreted things in the past, so this vid is not a surprise, and neither is the fact she reacted like she did, as everything's unusual and everything's changing for her. 

I did not want to "dis Anthony", so don't worry about him - I genuinely am curious why he got Kira. But I see in other posts that are virtually flying past as this thread explodes, he states he didn't understand the breed.


----------



## pfitzpa1

Liesje said:


> Why does the family have to be involved? This is confusing to me as I see in a lot of threads on here people say GSDs tend to be one person dogs and the parent(s) need to be in control of the training, not leave that up to kids. Kira can be Anthony's dog. What is wrong with that? I think the issue is not Kira being his dog but maybe him coming to terms with that? My family wants nothing to do with my dogs and my husband could not care less if I had dogs or not and it has never been an issue for us. They are my dogs and my responsibility. Clearly Anthony loves her and wants the best for her or he would not keep coming back here for abuse, lol. I don't want him to think the only possible outcome is giving her back. She can be HIS dog if HE can make that work.


Totally agree with this. My kids will not feed or walk our dog. They play with her sometimes but only rarely, in fact they could care less if she was even there. My dog is really mellow around the kids, including guests and is quite happy to lie there and watch everything. I do all the training, (Schutzhund, once a week, tracking 5 mornings a week, obedience 5 mins per day and 6 miles of walking per day), ny wife sorta complains that I spend more time on the dog than I do on the kids, but when the result is a relaxed contented dog at home, she thinks it's worth while.

I think perhaps in Anthony's case his breeder mismatched the puppy/owner and should have given Anthony one of the more mellow puppies of the litter.


----------



## Rua

Geez...I go away for a little while and come back to a forum meltdown. 

Anthony, if you are still reading this, I am very sorry you are having to deal with this situation. For what it's worth, you are to be commended for at least dealing with it, whatever you end up deciding to do. 

And msvette2u: Rocketdog isn't the only one who felt your post about why Anthony bought a GSD were way outta line. That was uncalled for.


----------



## RocketDog

msvette2u said:


> Um...here's the thing, and others have pointed it out.
> Kira was definitely "set up" in that vid.
> 
> She has a leash on (unusual for her I'm sure) and all systems are "go", to tape, but the problem is, a dog can sense stress and fear in the humans, and not knowing why their humans are stressed, often assume, because they are dogs, that there is something to be fearful OF.
> 
> Kira's misinterpreted things in the past, so this vid is not a surprise, and neither is the fact she reacted like she did, as everything's unusual and everything's changing for her.
> 
> I did not want to "dis Anthony", so don't worry about him - I genuinely am curious why he got Kira. But I see in other posts that are virtually flying past as this thread explodes, he states he didn't understand the breed.



Hello? Is anyone in there? He has stated CLEARLY he wanted to "stage" her reaction for people to see. Duh. 

I think he may have been, like so many of us at some point, under the impression that going to a reputable breeder would not deliver a dog with genetic reactivity in his lap. I also think he meant he does not understand those genetic fear reactions as well as someone with more experience. 
You clearly wanted to dis him for having an ornament, or whatever you called Coconut. You accused him of wanting a GSD only to look pretty. Or shall I go back and quote your post in entirety?


----------



## msvette2u

AND as horrible as it sounds... 



> I'm approaching a point where maybe Kira shouldn't be here. I feel bad for her too. This is a bad house for her. She needs someone that truly understands the breed. I don't.


This tells me what I said may in fact be right 
So whatever the reasons were, it seems they were not the right ones after all. 

If you think people don't get dogs for status symbols, you're mistaken, btw. 
We see this all the time on the rescue end of things.
It's not a "bad thing" per se, and no it is not a "dis", in fact it's is only a bad thing when that home is unprepared to handle the needs of the dog, no matter why or how it was obtained.


----------



## RocketDog

msvette2u said:


> AND as horrible as it sounds...
> 
> 
> 
> This tells me what I said may in fact be right
> So whatever the reasons were, it seems they were not the right ones after all.
> 
> If you think people don't get dogs for status symbols, you're mistaken, btw.
> We see this all the time on the rescue end of things.
> It's not a "bad thing" per se, and is only a bad thing when that home is unprepared to handle the needs of the dog, no matter why or how it was obtained.



Who cares what you "see in rescue all the time"? This thread is NOT ABOUT YOU. Also, never once have I said any thing at all about why people get dogs or don't get dogs. YOU are the one who brought that up. You are the one who said "I always get the impression Kira was obtained for beauty...."blah blah blah. 

If Anthony got her for "status", he would not have spent so much time energy working, training, learning on here about her. 

Some people don't use this board as a gossip and harassment venue, they actually post here to learn and discuss things related to their own dog.


----------



## Rua

I do agree that some people may get dogs as status symbols. But not everyone does. Just because someone buys a GSD, doesn't automatically mean they've gotten him to make a statement. People buy GSDs for companionship too. 

I reckon a lot of the reason why Anthony now feels that his home is not good for Kira anymore is because he's come on this forum for help and instead has had strips torn off him by people who think they know best. I'm sure that's knocked his confidence. While this forum has a lot to offer to help people learn, it also has a tendency to make otherwise good pet owners doubt every last decision they make regarding their dog.


----------



## msvette2u

Yes, I agree that people have knocked him down, or more importantly, knocked the dog down.
I've told him repeatedly (in other threads) to not post so much because I think Kira's a lot more stable than people give her credit for, or at least she's just acting like a GSD should/would. 

What I'm mostly concerned about is that her _acting like a GSD_ is a problem in that household and _that's_ what's confusing to me. That's what makes me wonder why one would get a GSD then be confused when it acts like a GSD? 
No matter who is posting.


----------



## Mrs.K

RocketDog said:


> Who cares what you "see in rescue all the time"? This thread is NOT ABOUT YOU. Also, never once have I said any thing at all about why people get dogs or don't get dogs. YOU are the one who brought that up. You are the one who said "I always get the impression Kira was obtained for beauty...."blah blah blah.
> 
> If Anthony got her for "status", he would not have spent so much time energy working, training, learning on here about her.
> 
> Some people don't use this board as a gossip and harassment venue, they actually post here to learn and discuss things related to their own dog.


I agree with you. That being said, I believe a point is reached where he needs to get outside help. His family doesn't have to be involved in training but they have to be involved in following HIS rules. 

I do involve my husband in feeding and I meanwhile sort of trust him alone with the dogs. It wasn't always like that. 


Also there is a difference between "not being involved" and not liking her


----------



## RocketDog

msvette2u said:


> *Yes, I agree that people have knocked him down,* or more importantly*,* knocked the dog down.
> I've told him repeatedly (in other threads) to not post so much because I think Kira's a lot more stable than people give her credit for, or at least she's just acting like a GSD.
> 
> What I'm mostly concerned about is that her _acting like a GSD_ is a problem in that householdand _that's_ what's confusing to me. That's what makes me wonder why one would get a GSD then be confused when it acts like a GSD?
> No matter who is posting.


Gee, you mean like implying he got Kira as a couch ornament? That he had no idea what he was getting into? And that he obviously doesn't know what he's doing and he should, how did you so eloquently put it....oh yes... "Crate her ass" ?


----------



## Cheyanna

Respectful request: if you want to beat Anthony up, could you please PM him, instead of doing it on the open forum. Some of us read these forums in the hopes of learning how to deal with issues with our GSD. If people are being torn to shreds, then others will not ask questions to avoid being beaten up. That will only hurt our pups and drive people from the forums.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## RocketDog

Mrs.K said:


> I agree with you. That being said, I believe a point is reached where he needs to get outside help.* His family doesn't have to be involved in training but they have to be involved in following HIS rules. *
> 
> I do involve my husband in feeding and I meanwhile sort of trust him alone with the dogs. It wasn't always like that.
> 
> 
> *Also there is a difference between "not being involved" and not liking her*


Yes to both.


----------



## oldiehawn

omg ive just spent last bit reading all this ...im a noone here but i do own a gsd and came in search of help and to be able to ask questions cuz yes my dog is not perfect am i working to fix them? yes ...but omg the things i see some of you say to others is horrible ...some of it is honest advice meant in good way other stuff? like a character assasination.. have i learned anything here in this whole forum? yes ive learned my dog is alot like everyone elses but the people in here? truthfully some of you are just mean.....and yup im outta this forum to search for another where i feel i can ask and not be prosicuted....just saying! and goodbye....oldie n dasha


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Everyone -

Put the keyboard up and walk away from the thread. 

Ask yourself - is what I am posting helping this dog? 

Could I start another thread to discuss something tangentially related? 

Anthony may not be participating in this particular thread anymore, or others that have been revived and started, but others will read it and may be able to get information or not.


----------



## RocketDog

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Everyone -
> 
> Put the keyboard up and walk away from the thread.
> 
> Ask yourself - is what I am posting helping this dog?
> 
> Could I start another thread to discuss something tangentially related?
> 
> Anthony may not be participating in this particular thread anymore, or others that have been revived and started, but others will read it and may be able to get information or not.



I didn't see your post. I agree--especially deciding what someone's intentions were regarding their dog.


----------



## angryrainbow

To me it kind of sounds like Anthony is disappointed that his kids don't want to play a part in Kiras life.
So I am interested in why he got her.
A lot of families get a dog expecting it to be a family dog, shared responsibilities, etc. then the kids do nothing and all of the responsibility gets put on the parents.

I had a lot of hamsters as a kid. I played/fed/watered them for the first week. Then I got bored and my mum was stuck taking care of them. I'm sure a similar thing happened with Kira. While Anthony has been doing a great job with her, I think he wanted a group effort and a lot of silly memories with a family dog.

But still, I guess there is the question, why a GSD and not a Golden or Labrador or numerous other less aloof/protective dogs ?
Who knows.


----------



## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> IF his family infact does not like her, as hard as it is, it may actually be the best for her to be rehomed. A dog can sense everything that is going on, she can also sense that she is not trusted, wanted and liked.


Agreed...through personal experience...

We have an anxiety ridden hot mess at home and I never liked her. It has taken a long time for her to settle down and me to lose my attitude towards her. It makes all the difference. She still gets out of her mind and runs into things, including me, to get away if someone moves to fast, the vacuum is going and she doesn't know where to go, etc. 

BUT...my attitude towards her was making her 1000x worse. If the kids are constantly shooing her away because they find her annoying, the wife huffs at her, anything like that then it can make her anxiety worse.

I hope Anthony is reading this still. My advice is get a good trainer to assess her. I don't care if you have to drive 3 hours one way to find a good trainer. If you went to a trainer even once a month to learn the skills you need to manage Kira and to help her with behavior modification, re-associating things that freak her out so she sees them as something good or neutral then you have accomplished something. She will never be "fixed" but with maturity and proper training she may be manageable. 

It is tiring. I feel your pain. Jax is now 5 yrs old. And just within the last few months her reactivity response to other dogs of "I'll eat your face before you can try to eat mine" has changed to avoidance and now I see her trying to play with dogs. That is something I never thought I'd see. THAT is through behavior modification(LAT) and I think partly due to Sierra settling down and not wanting to fight all the time so Jax is not ON defense all the time.

Different scenario....dogs vs people...but it's the same tools.


----------



## msvette2u

angryrainbow said:


> To me it kind of sounds like Anthony is disappointed that his kids don't want to play a part in Kiras life.
> So I am interested in why he got her.
> A lot of families get a dog expecting it to be a family dog, shared responsibilities, etc. then the kids do nothing and all of the responsibility gets put on the parents.
> 
> I had a lot of hamsters as a kid. I played/fed/watered them for the first week. Then I got bored and my mum was stuck taking care of them. I'm sure a similar thing happened with Kira. While Anthony has been doing a great job with her, I think he wanted a group effort and a lot of silly memories with a family dog.
> 
> *But still, I guess there is the question, why a GSD and not a Golden or Labrador or numerous other less aloof/protective dogs ?*
> Who knows.


Thank you...this was my train of thought as well. 
And Kira's getting the short end of the stick because of it, whichever way it went. I think everone's expectations of Kira were different and certainly they weren't expecting her to be like she is, if she's being typical or atypical for a GSD. 

I think it's a very good lesson for others contemplating this breed, and I'm always appreciative when people come here to ask if this breed is right for them before taking the plunge.


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## Whiteshepherds

I get the impression that msvette2u believes that Kira is just being a GSD and that Anthony wasn't/isn't equipped to handle the breed. Msvette2u I don't want to put words in your mouth so if that's wrong, please clarify what you meant about getting the breed for the wrong reasons. 

If that's what you did mean than I disagree and would hate to have new dog owners reading this thread think that Kira's actions are what we expect from stable dogs. She's reactive, or fearful, or whatever word you want to use to describe a dog that has to be managed because she doesn't always make the best decisions.


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## llombardo

Geez, enough...the arguing needs to stop. There is a board member that is seriously considering getting rid of his beautiful dog. The OP is confused, frustrated, and feeling pretty low right now and we have nothing better to do then argue? I don't care why he got her, I don't care what peoples real names are...none of that matters at this moment. What matters is that the OP is able to think with a clear head and make decisions that won't be regretted later down the line.


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## Lilie

angryrainbow said:


> To me it kind of sounds like Anthony is disappointed that his kids don't want to play a part in Kiras life.


As a parent, I know it makes life at home a lot more difficult when the entire family isn't on board. 

As a parent, your decisions will affect the entire family. I sure don't envy Anthony at this point. 

For what it's worth, I like Anthony. I think he is a very brave man. If we ever met in real life, I'd love to be his friend.


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## msvette2u

Whiteshepherds said:


> I get the impression that msvette2u believes that Kira is just being a GSD and that Anthony wasn't/isn't equipped to handle the breed. Msvette2u I don't want to put words in your mouth so if that's wrong, please clarify what you meant about getting the breed for the wrong reasons.
> 
> If that's what you did mean than I disagree and would hate to have new dog owners reading this thread think that Kira's actions are what we expect from stable dogs. She's reactive, or fearful, or whatever word you want to use to describe a dog that has to be *managed* because she doesn't always make the best decisions.


YES that's it. I mean...I even said it in another thread, "she's not coconut, she's a GSD". 

But I actually do think with proper handling - and _expecting_ a degree of 'protectiveness' - she'd do fine in the home. 

That is, like the party, put the dog away in another room. When there's a sleepover, put up some gates and keep Kira away from the guests.

Because I'm guessing there's thousands of Kiras out there, with less than stellar breeding/temperament, and people manage them fine, without the advice of the internet. Manage being the keyword. 

But that said, many have said in the past Anthony needs to separate Kira, put her in a crate, don't expect her to like strangers coming in, etc. and without that happening, Kira may indeed be a bite risk.

Anthony always seems surprised when Kira behaves like a GSD would. No dog makes the best decisions, because they are dogs.


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## Freestep

Anthony, I know the feeling of total overwhelm. The kids aren't taking the situation seriously and I feel your frustration. I might almost suggest family counseling.

Most everybody else has said everything that needs to be said. I'm not going to beat up on you.

Kira is at the most difficult stage of GSDdom--the adolescent phase. These kinds of issues are, unfortunately, very common. Many GSDs grow out of it with continued training, so don't despair just yet.

Always crate her when guests are over. Always.

Purchase a kennel for when you are not home. You can get one of those welded-wire AKC kennels for around $400 at Costco. Keep her in the kennel during the day when you and your wife are not home. This will not hurt her a bit.

I have mixed feelings about dogs being on furniture. With some dogs, it seems to "elevate" their status to the point where they think they have to be the boss of things. Kira has not yet figured out that she is not supposed to be the one in control. Perhaps the crate and kennel will "demote" her to the level of subordinate. I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean it in the way that she does not feel so "responsible". It's just like some people are more comfortable with less responsibility. 

My husband turned down a job at the brewery, for the sole reason that the position would have entailed more responsibility over a pack of unruly, histrionic co-workers, without much more pay. He enjoys his current job. The new lead position would have taken away everything about his job that is fun, and given him a huge headache trying to control quarrelsome co-workers. What does that have to do with the price of tea, you ask? Just trying to point out that some dogs, like some people, do not like to be in a position where they are compelled to be vigilant over others. If Kira is in a crate or kennel rather than being loose in the house, she may be less likely to take on that vigilance.

It's worth a try before you go back to the breeder. 

Still, it would be a good idea to call the breeder and tell them of the issues you are having. Without a doubt, they have seen this kind of thing before, and may have some tips to help you get through this. If they say they've never seen it in any dogs of their breeding, they are either liars, in denial, or they simply haven't seen it because no one has brought it to their attention. IMO, it's important that they know what kind of temperament issues may come up in their breeding program.


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## carmspack

Anthony , simply , there is no beating up "You can beat me up all you want. I did the best I could. You may think I ignored your advice, but I didn't" 

I know you have not ignored me --many times when I held the line , you probably had a bit of pleasure from giving me a bit of a kick - dang I got suckered into this discussion again. lol . Still in there --

this "She acted as referee as I mentioned in another thread. The kids were laughing in another part of the room, and Kira jumped up and got in between them."

I thought that thread was about a female adult guest who reached out to one of the older daughters who was being a typical teen "mouthy" ???

Saying it is YOU , Mrs K. The dog had issues from the earliest in the park . Anthony may not have management down pat , but there is nothing that he is doing that would make me hesitate having him as an owner, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE! Firm on that . Sometimes you don't create a problem you inheret it . That dog would be the same in any home . 

Dogs come in to the world with their own set of emotional chemistry . How many other forum members write about pups they just got with issues long before much owner or environmental input . Why does one read and study pedigrees ? 

She does not need to be re-homed . She needs to be managed differently in the home . 
The breeder has no interest , that went by the wayside the moment the cheque was cashed . Proof of that was the lack of interest when (hope my recollection is correct -- ) Kira had a hip problem?

I can imagine that Anthony would have looked forward to doing more with the dog - and can't because any thing he may want to try is going to introduce another problem to solve. 
In part we bring dogs in to our lives to have some pleasure , expand our own social networks and interests, get out , get some exercise , some quiet time , heck -- they are supposed to reduce our stress not add to it . (ideally).

out of context , point - " telling their friends to respect Kira's space, " the house is not Kira's space -- the entire family and all invited guests should be able to move around freely without inhibition -- they are not interested in Kira so there is no interaction -- but the dog enters their space , over and over , because her threshold is low and so her buffer zone is larger , threat is perceived quickly and at distance .

There is nothing wrong with the family being 
apathetic to the dog -- she IS Anthony's dog .

Crating , kenneling , solution in management. At this very moment Costco's are offering very attractive , sturdy AKC approved kennels 8 x 8 x 6 . Get some patio stones . Lay a foundation and set the Kennel sytem on top . They also provide a shade cover . This way the dog is with Anthony , under control, in the kennel safe from negative interaction, or in the home in a crate . I am not in favour at all with dogs on furniture or sharing a bed . Too much entitlement . That picture of her on the foot stool by the window -- definitely not for me -- Too much family revolving around the dog . Dog too central and demanding . You on couch with your feet up , having your evening after meal beverage , dog lying at your feet (because before dinner you took the dog for a quick jog ) . Dog works for you, not you for the dog. 
I agree with Liesje , the whole family does not need to be involved . They have to respect and accommodate whatever rules Anthony sets down . He is in charge . If he puts her somewhere that is where she stays until he gets her out. Even better there will be consistancy . If Anthony says sit the dog sits. If a family members says sit and the dog wanders around distracted and then finally decides , yeah , sit , okay , sit -- then the dog has two sets of expectations , and that brings conflict , the next time Anthony asks sit , now. 

Bing bing bing - Yes ! "What Kira did in that video is not what GSD's do when they're stable. Children should not be targets. Anyone who has said their GSD has issues with kids has said they have to manage that situation. It doesn't in any way suggest they didn't get a GSD knowing that they're a protective breed and then not like it when they act that way. GSD's are supposed to be able to discern friend from foe. That child was clearly not a foe. Don't try to spin it. You wanted to dis Anthony because YOU assumed just because he lives in the big city and has a nice home that he didn't know what he was doing. Rather, I think he was not necessarily prepared for a bit of nerve issue and is learning along the way. I daresay I would put his dog training for basic obedience up against most of the dogs on this board and say she is under his control very well. His issue is learning how to manage her reactivity. "

Adding to that recognizing that this is her base temperament .

why? San - "My current GSD is a high defense/low threshold dog. She is a reactive dog. My GSD may not have the perfect temperament but she is perfect for us. She listens to us well and is very sweet. We really enjoy her quirks and our lives revolve around her. Given a choice again, we would have no hesitation in getting another dog just like her. "

If you have it , deal with it , but do recognize that there are rock solid GSD out there with high thresholds very capable of doing any sport or real life protection and are able to sail through life , any situation, environment , often are not ever giving out any signal as to the power that they have. A low threshold dog requires extra care -- your life revolves around the dog -- I would rather have a dog that fits into my life .


----------



## msvette2u

I have to say, as well, that dogs like Kira, less than stellar temperaments, are more the norm than the exception nowawdays, I get that feeling due to over breeding of the breed and also dogs in rescue/shelters that may be adopted and within weeks displaying issues like Kira has been.



> Kira has not yet figured out that she is not supposed to be the one in control.


This should be a sticky. This could actually stand alone as the only/best advice in this entire trainwreck of a thread.



> Kira has not yet figured out that she is not supposed to be the one in control.


NO dog should be the one in control in any house, no matter what the breed, or temperament. 
Because she does feel she is, is 99% of this problem.


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## fuzzybunny

Carmen, such a great post and I really hope Anthony sees it.


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## gsdlover91

Anthony, I've been following your threads on Kira for a while. This makes me so sad. I do really hope you can find someone who can help you and your family work with Kira and that everything works out for the best. I do believe with time and proper training, it can all work out. I wish the best for you and Kira. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## JakodaCD OA

sheesh I'm off a few hours and come back to read this

First, Anthony, again your a brave soul, I totally understand why you 'set up' Kira and did the video, lot of opinions tho that aren't very helpful nor understanding.

But then, I've seen alot of good info as well..Here is my 2 cents 

So what if your family isn't as 'into' Kira as you are. She is YOUR dog, YOU CAN manage her. I know you love her so don't think about rehoming to god knows where or returning her to the breeder, cause you know my opinion of him

This is what I would do to manage, Since the kids are home before you or your wife, lay down the law, NO ONE other than your own kids are allowed IN the house without you or your wife there. PERIOD> 

Crate her or get a nice big kennel for her and keep her in it or leashed to you when people are over.

There are dogs with issues far worse than Kira out there, management is easy if rules are inforced and lived by.

YOU CAN do this. 

No more setting her up for negative reactions, know what you have, deal with it, and get your family on board. I really hope it can work for you, because I just can't see Kira with someone other than yourself.


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## RocketDog

_"If you have it , deal with it , but do recognize that *there are rock solid GSD out there with high thresholds very capable of doing any sport or real life protection and are able to sail through life , any situation, environment , often are not ever giving out any signal as to the power that they have*. A low threshold dog requires extra care -- your life revolves around the dog -- I would rather have a dog that fits into my life "

_This is so true. And I can't speak for Anthony. I will say that *I* started at a place where I assumed finding a reputable breeder with decent, titled dogs and a good facility, (checklist, checklist, checklist) would deliver that to me. What I did NOT know, and I do now, is that genetics is what will deliver that to me. That a breeder is only as good as the genetics of the lines he's breeding. 

Honestly, I thank my lucky stars that my dog seems to be solidly nerved in most respects. This is not because I looked for that in the lines; I got lucky, plain and simple. Is he everything a GSD should be? I don't honestly know, but I know that for my life, for what happens in my life, he's pretty close. I am not sure of how "appropriate" his defense and/or civil aggression drives are, but NOT having "enough" of those (if that is the case, I really don't know) is much easier to work around than having to manage reactivity issues as some have to. Will my next dog be purchased with genetics in mind first and foremost? Yes absolutely, unless I find one in rescue or some such thing. 

Anthony is a smart and thoughtful owner who only wants the best for his family and his dog. I'm sure he will think things over carefully and move forward in whatever he feels is the best direction.


----------



## llombardo

JakodaCD OA said:


> sheesh I'm off a few hours and come back to read this
> 
> First, Anthony, again your a brave soul, I totally understand why you 'set up' Kira and did the video, lot of opinions tho that aren't very helpful nor understanding.
> 
> But then, I've seen alot of good info as well..Here is my 2 cents
> 
> So what if your family isn't as 'into' Kira as you are. She is YOUR dog, YOU CAN manage her. I know you love her so don't think about rehoming to god knows where or returning her to the breeder, cause you know my opinion of him
> 
> This is what I would do to manage, Since the kids are home before you or your wife, lay down the law, NO ONE other than your own kids are allowed IN the house without you or your wife there. PERIOD>
> 
> Crate her or get a nice big kennel for her and keep her in it or leashed to you when people are over.
> 
> There are dogs with issues far worse than Kira out there, management is easy if rules are inforced and lived by.
> 
> YOU CAN do this.
> 
> No more setting her up for negative reactions, know what you have, deal with it, and get your family on board. * I really hope it can work for you, because I just can't see Kira with someone other than yourself.*


:thumbup:Oh so well said:thumbup:


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## PupperLove

Anthony, I haven't read the whole thread but here's what I have to offer.

Jackson pretty much acts the same way as Kira, and he has come a long way. What I do for him is crate him in an area where he can see what is going on, and that guests are not a threat. He barks, stares, etc for a while, and then once he is able to see everyone's interactions WITHOUT me being right there at his side, he realizes that it is OKAY, and calms down and wants to be a part of the excitment too. I let him out, and he generally is fine. In certain situations with certain people, he needs to be re-crated or put in the basement, away from the activity. I also correct any behavior I do not approve of. If he is acting out in any way, such as barking and hackling at someone in my home after he has been fine with them for the previous half hour (for instance someone walking past him looking in the opposite direction), he gets yelled at. Certain situations are non-threatening and not even directed remotley towards him, and if he is going to call the shots on that, he will get corrected. Nobody is pushing him. For US, it has been a balance of him calming himself down in his crate first, letting him be a part of the activity once/if he is CALM, and laying down boundaries to what is acceptable and what is not. You also need to pay very close attention to Kira's body language. If she is tense, she needs crate time to observe instead of being a part of it all.


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## andreaB

JakodaCD OA said:


> sheesh I'm off a few hours and come back to read this
> 
> First, Anthony, again your a brave soul, I totally understand why you 'set up' Kira and did the video, lot of opinions tho that aren't very helpful nor understanding.
> 
> But then, I've seen alot of good info as well..Here is my 2 cents
> 
> So what if your family isn't as 'into' Kira as you are. She is YOUR dog, YOU CAN manage her. I know you love her so don't think about rehoming to god knows where or returning her to the breeder, cause you know my opinion of him
> 
> This is what I would do to manage, Since the kids are home before you or your wife, lay down the law, NO ONE other than your own kids are allowed IN the house without you or your wife there. PERIOD>
> 
> Crate her or get a nice big kennel for her and keep her in it or leashed to you when people are over.
> 
> There are dogs with issues far worse than Kira out there, management is easy if rules are inforced and lived by.
> 
> 
> YOU CAN do this.
> 
> No more setting her up for negative reactions, know what you have, deal with it, and get your family on board. I really hope it can work for you, because I just can't see Kira with someone other than yourself.


YES Anthony don't give up !!!


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## Mrs.K

> Saying it is YOU , Mrs K. The dog had issues from the earliest in the park . Anthony may not have management down pat , but there is nothing that he is doing that would make me hesitate having him as an owner, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE! Firm on that . Sometimes you don't create a problem you inheret it . That dog would be the same in any home .


And you add to a problem! Never said it wasn't the dog. 
The problem is there and we all know it. However, she is not a bad dog. He is adding to the problem by nitpicking everything apart instead of going out and getting help. I do not know if he ever got the help of a behaviorist instead of coming on the forum. 
However, (in case he did not) it is something he should have done a long time ago and I remember advising him the exact same thing I advised tonight. Go out, find a good club, get in contact with knowledgeable people that are THERE and can see the dog instead of coming on here and posting more and more issues the dog has. 

The forum is nice and well for getting advise, but the forum isn't there. YOU are not there! We do not know what is happening throughout the day, we do not know how tense he is, if he already expects things to happen which ADDS to the already existing problem. 

The Forum does NOT replace a good trainer and behaviorist that is THERE and gives him HANDS ON training on how to handle himself an the dog. 

Because, let's face it. While she may have issues, being in a household, where the majority doesn't like her creates an unhealthy environment which fuels the problem. 

So I am pretty sure that Kira is NOT all to blame for what is actually going on and that is why I am so fed up in blaming the dog. 

Get a behaviorist involved already. Start managing her. Lay down the rules. 

It's been advised over and over. 

He has done an incredible job so far but it's time for professional help!


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## San

carmspack said:


> why? San - "My current GSD is a high defense/low threshold dog. She is a reactive dog. My GSD may not have the perfect temperament but she is perfect for us. She listens to us well and is very sweet. We really enjoy her quirks and our lives revolve around her. Given a choice again, we would have no hesitation in getting another dog just like her. "
> 
> If you have it , deal with it , but do recognize that there are rock solid GSD out there with high thresholds very capable of doing any sport or real life protection and are able to sail through life , any situation, environment , often are not ever giving out any signal as to the power that they have. A low threshold dog requires extra care -- your life revolves around the dog -- I would rather have a dog that fits into my life .


Not to derail Anthony's thread, but....

Why? Hm....let me see....all her good qualities outweigh her shortcomings. We got her as an adult. She is a softie and listens well, I can control her easily with verbal commands. She is a clean dog. She is aloof to strangers but very sweet to us, always willing to please.

We wanted to learn to work with her, to make the best out of what we have. We joined a protection sports club because we wanted her to have an outlet for her energy (We had her evaluated by Michael Ellis at one of his seminars before participating in protection sports, ME says she is high defense/high prey and enjoys bitework, so he suggested for us to work her in prey as much as possible). My GSD is very handler-sensitive, I wanted to learn more about motivational training, so we spent two weeks at Michael Ellis's school for his OB intensive course. We also attended a couple of his sports seminars. Because we enjoy her so much, we ended up taking in a senior GSD rescue (he passed away last year). We then became a foster home for a GSD rescue. 

All of this because of her. Had we taken in a "stable" dog, the learning experience would not have been there. We have a good number of high drive and strong nerve dogs in our club, I've seen them work. However, I would choose my GSD over any of them at any time. That may sound odd but what is perfect for one person may not be perfect for another. 

I am not promoting unstable dogs. My GSD is not unstable, I also don't feel Kira is unstable. I don't think Michael Ellis would tell us to train her in bitework if she were a liability. When you have a reactive dog, you manage them differently.

As far as our lives revolving around our GSD, maybe it is being interpreted differently. To me, it means that in the short number of years I have with her, I want to spend as much time as I can with her. We enjoy her, whenever we can, we try to include her in all of our activities. Not all places are dog-friendly, so that means we do have to pick and choose what we can do/go on vacations if we want to bring her all the time. I have professional conferences I have to attend yearly, and I am a lot more likely to attend a conference if the hotel is pet-friendly and she can stay at the hotel with us.


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## OhMyStars

Anthony,

I haven't read all the posts and I am certainly not an expert, but here is what I would do.
Crate Kira
You stand close to crate. (try your best to relax, I know this is a stressful situation and she is picking up on that)
Have a guest enter house
Have the guest speak to Kira in a super animated positive tone (from across the room and no eye contact)"Good Kira", "What a preeety girl." etc., Have the guest keep this up right over all of Kira's objections. This may take awhile.
Have the guest keep talking while you stand close to her cage with a peanut butter kong loaded and ready.
The minute Kira relaxes or quiets, give her a reward.
If you can get to this point, have the guest leave her sight and in a few minutes re-enter the room and repeat.
Kira is a beautiful dog! Good luck, they can be a challenge, can't they?

Again, just what I would try.


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## carmspack

- question , why choose another like her ?


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## San

carmspack said:


> - question , why choose another like her ?


Assuming this was directed towards me...because she is perfect for our lifestyle! I love her personality and quirks. If I could clone her, I would, LOL. 

I guess that would be the same as asking someone...so and so's child went to Harvard on full scholarship, smart, athletic, good-looking, wouldn't you wish that was your child instead? 

To me, perfection is in the eye of the beholder as well. What one deems as a perfect dog may not be for someone else. 

I will say, if my household were anything like Anthony's, I would probably want a more sociable dog. But then again, hubby and I are not sociable people


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## msvette2u

OhMyStars said:


> Anthony,
> 
> I haven't read all the posts and I am certainly not an expert, but here is what I would do.
> Crate Kira
> You stand close to crate. (try your best to relax, I know this is a stressful situation and she is picking up on that)
> Have a guest enter house
> Have the guest speak to Kira in a super animated positive tone (from across the room and no eye contact)"Good Kira", "What a preeety girl." etc., Have the guest keep this up right over all of Kira's objections. This may take awhile.
> Have the guest keep talking while you stand close to her cage with a peanut butter kong loaded and ready.
> The minute Kira relaxes or quiets, give her a reward.
> If you can get to this point, have the guest leave her sight and in a few minutes re-enter the room and repeat.
> Kira is a beautiful dog! Good luck, they can be a challenge, can't they?
> 
> Again, just what I would try.


This sounds good, but in reality, dogs should view their crates as sanctuaries, not a barrier between them and "the threat". 
Dogs have been known to show barrier aggression when people walk by (more rare, IME) and when other animals walk by (more common, IME). 

When a crate is utilized, it should be in a quiet room off away from the rest of the house. It should be seen as a positive thing, but also a neutral thing, just a spot to go "chill". 

I'd also put up a gate so as to be a visual reminder that people aren't allowed in that area where the dog is chilling. 

In our case, our GSD is in my daughter's bedroom, crated. We don't anticipate or expect he should be loose and running around when my kids have their friends over. Heck, half my non-GSD dogs are put up/put in another room when the kids have their friends over, because we're not paying attention to the interactions. 

When things calm down again, the dogs may or may not be able to come out and interact, or the kids meander off to their rooms and the dogs are in the main living area again.


----------



## katdog5911

Started reading some of the replies, and my mind went to my son and his HA dog. Kira is still young and I do believe with the right training and some management, she can be part of your family.
My son's dog is a pit bull, about 6 years old now. They had him since he was a puppy. No one knows why he turned out to be human aggressive, but it is what it is. Very few people can be around him. I am one of them that can. My son has struggled with what to do with him for a while now. He has young children, 9 and 4 years old. He has "trained" the 9 year old to NEVER open the front door to let someone in unless Goti is in his crate. Goti is ALWAYS crated in the basement if my son has guests. For him, there is no option to rehome. This dog would have to be PTS. So, it is a matter of management. Constant management. Kira doesn't seem anywhere near this dogs aggression!
My family had dogs that had to be put away before anyone came in. I was a teenager and knew this. It just became a way of life. 
I think your kids can learn how to handle this situation with Kira. I did with my dogs.


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## Sitz&Platz

Anthony, if you're still reading this....... My friend's family had a female teenage GSD with lots of issues. The husband never wanted a dog, the kids wanted a Lab and not a GSD. The family was not involved in the dog's care, it was basically my friend doing all the work. At some point my friend decided to rehome the dog (=shelter), and I decided to take her in and try to work with her. Now, I'm not a GSD expert by any means, nor am I proficient in dog whispering. But, I gave it a shot and it worked. Once the dog was given a structure, consistent rules, exercise and 2 stable dogs in my household to show her how to behave, she changed. 

My friend was able to take her dog back home after 6 weeks with a list of things that I had given her on what to do and what not to do, and the dog is still living with them now, 3 years later. 

I don't believe that I had mad skills, but being taken out of a situation that was frustrating for everybody - family wasn't involved and disliked the dog, because of the way the dog behaved, thus the dog behaved worse and worse - was the best thing for everybody involved. Maybe it would be a good idea to have your dog trained away from home, as someone else mentioned. If I was able to help my friend with zero GSD background, then I'm positive that a real trainer could bring about the change that your dog and family need.


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## Midnight12

Lilie said:


> As a parent, I know it makes life at home a lot more difficult when the entire family isn't on board.
> 
> As a parent, your decisions will affect the entire family. I sure don't envy Anthony at this point.
> 
> For what it's worth, I like Anthony. I think he is a very brave man. If we ever met in real life, I'd love to be his friend.


 This I agree with


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## TrickyShepherd

I'm so sorry Anthony, I know this is something that has been stressing you out badly with her. You are a fantastic owner.... this dog is not a product of her raising, but more so her genetics. She's still a great dog, she does have some faults though. I think you could manage her just fine. Just keep your head up... find someone to help, or find a way to get everyone to stop being selfish and help you out. I'm not talking about caring for the dog... I'm talking about following RULES. When a friend comes over, Kira needs to be crated BEFORE they walk in. No reason they can't just walk in and put the dog in her crate. If someone is staying over... you said your house was on the larger side... anyway you can confine her to one side and just make sure the kids know that's where she is and no friend is to go into that zone. Maybe gates of some sort?

I wish I was closer, I would help you out. I think Kira is a great dog. She's just a little special in some areas.

Good luck in whatever you decide.


----------



## sitstay

Anthony, I have read most of your threads about Kira, and I might even have posted a response on one or two.

I really can't comment one way or the other about whether or not it is time to find her a new home. Only you can know when you and/or your family have reached the tipping point. It is different for every home. I don't think you should be guilted into rehoming her or into keeping her. 

I was right where you are with Tanner not too many years ago. I was exhausted by this dog, and his issues were just overwhelming to me. He wasn't reactive to people. Tanner was horribly reactive to other dogs. Even the dogs he had lived with since he was 11 weeks old. I was worried that a fight would happen and one of my children would get hurt as collateral damage. I had an 18 year old son living at home who had the common sense of a hamster. I had an 8 year old son that I worried wouldn't be able to get out of the way if a dog fight were to happen around him. We crated and rotated, but it was a constant worry that someone (my goofy teenager, my well meaning 8 year old or my know-it-all husband or even myself) would make a mistake. Oh, and Tanner tried to kill our cats whenever he had the chance. 

I would have rehomed him if I felt like I had a viable option. His breeder would not have been ethical in placing him (I believed) and I was involved in rescue myself and I knew how hard he would be to place, given his behavioral issues and his major health issues.

I kept him. It worked out. I worked with him. I took a deep breath and admitted to how utterly sick and tired I was of living with a dog like that, and decided not to make a decision when I was that disgusted with the whole situation. Then I found a trainer who could help me address the issues that went beyond basic obedience. Tanner was who Tanner was going to be. I had to learn how to deal with him, as he sat in front of me, trying to chew through the tether to get to the cat.

I am not telling you this story to point out that others have pushed through and come out whole, but rather to point out that the best decisions are made with a cool head and a detached heart. Give yourself that opportunity to reach the best decision possible. Not when you are feeling heartbroken, or overwhelmed or disgusted or cheated (and, believe me, when you live with dogs like ours, it is entirely possible to feel all that in the space of an hour). 

It might be that the best choice for Kira, your family and you is to find a reputable rescue to work through and place her in another home. Or maybe the best choice is to keep her, and work with the dog. If you decide to keep her, you will need to change how you live with her. Remember the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results each time. You need professional help if you keep her. It is just that simple. And there is no shame in that. Think of what a freaking awesome trainer you will be as a result. 

Keeping a companion dog should be a mostly pleasant experience. You should never feel like you are facing some kind of prison sentence in deciding to live with this dog. Or any dog. But remember, too, that you can make some changes and find more balance with her if that is the route you decide to take. You aren't agreeing to life always being the way it is right this minute. 

Give yourself a chance to catch your emotional breath before deciding. And don't let ANYONE guilt you into anything. You don't have to live your life with eyes in the back of your head, or force your family to live like hermits, just because you have a GSD. That is just as ridiculous as thinking you have to have a dog that allows every stranger within a 100 mile radius to walk into your home unchallenged, to be met with kisses and a wagging tail.

Good luck. It stinks to get to this point.
Sheilah


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## selzer

Ok, I got up to page 12, maybe I will go the rest of the way. 

Build a kennel, get a pad lock. You can kennel her in the garage or basement or backyard. When you are there, you walk her, you train her, you let her lay at your feet while you mess with your computer. 

When you are not there, the dog is locked in her kennel. The kids don't care about her, or don't want her, so they shouldn't bother her. If they have friends over, either tether her to you, and stay away from the brats, or put her in her kennel. 

If you continue to train her regularly this will be a very different dog in another year or so. She needs to mature a bit, and you need to manage her environment a bit better. That's all. 

I don't think you need to give her up. If you do give her up, then it is your decision, you have kids there, and unless you are willing to put the dog up so that there is no accidents. 

I am sorry you are at this point with your girl. I know you love her. She needs management first, then training, and time to mature. I hope you can give her these, or find someone who will be able to.


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## readaboutdogs

Agree with sit,stay! We all have days you just want to throw in the towel! Cody was my first gsd and was diffinately a learning and growing experience for both of us! He had his quirks and problems, there were some people that came to the house he just never warmed up to, others that may have came over once ever couple years and greeted like his long lost friend! My kids knew they had to put him up or in the yard if they brought someone over he didn't know or like, they knew it was a safety measure that could not be breached, for their friends and Cody. He was my heart, I loved him to no end. I was his main caretaker and squeeze! He mellowed with age, so as sit, stay suggested, think it over.


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## cilset

i am totaly newbie in dog owning but i have read here somewhere " dog is not deciding who is and who is not welcomed in MY house" and i am sticking to that phrase.


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## PupperLove

I still think you need to get a good crate and have her sit with the company IN her crate. I wouldn't be hovering over her, 'protecting her' either. She can't hurt anyone that way, and she will be put in the midst of the activity all while she is in her safe place (crate). She can pick up on the behaviors of the visitors, the sounds, and smells without actually being a part of it or being a danger to anyone. She should learn that people are not a threat. Like I said, Jackson has come a looooong way since we started doing this. I am not sure how much you use a leash on her while there is company, but if she is anything like my dog, that would be a no go!


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## stealthq

sit said:


> ... decided not to make a decision when I was that disgusted with the whole situation.


Add 'tired and frustrated' to disgusted, and I think this is the most important thing right now. Whatever you end up doing, don't make a decision until you aren't in an emotional tailspin. You need a break of some kind, then re-assess with a clearer head.

I did that with my last dog (made a life-changing decision when I was in a really bad state), and regretted it. It turned out just fine for the dog. I made sure of that, he had a long and happy life. But, it was not the decision I should have made and I would never have made it if I hadn't been so frustrated/depressed/angry/exhausted that I couldn't think straight and had been that way for months.


----------



## Mrs.K

PupperLove said:


> I still think you need to get a good crate and have her sit with the company IN her crate. I wouldn't be hovering over her, 'protecting her' either. She can't hurt anyone that way, and she will be put in the midst of the activity all while she is in her safe place (crate). She can pick up on the behaviors of the visitors, the sounds, and smells without actually being a part of it or being a danger to anyone. She should learn that people are not a threat. Like I said, Jackson has come a looooong way since we started doing this. I am not sure how much you use a leash on her while there is company, but if she is anything like my dog, that would be a no go!



As long as people are not trying to approach her, while she is in a crate and backed into a corner, it might be a good idea. However, I would only do that while people consistently ignore her completely and she's just there. 

Also, I would not do that while kids were in the room. I wouldn't trust kids not to approach the "fluffeee Doggie". 

A reactive/aggressive dog in a crate, being backed in the corner is bad juju...


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## Anthony8858

Hi all.
I've decided to update the thread.

For starters, I want to say that there is a TON of wonderful advice. And I thank you for that.

I just want to say that:

I love my Kira to pieces.  I would never let her go 

I'm installing a "run" on the side of my home. It faces north, so sun and high heat won't be an issue. I have a side door entrance, and it will would give immediate access for the kids to put her in, and take her out, without having to walk out back. It has security cameras, so I can easily check up on her.... Even if I'm not at home, via iPhone app.
The area is small. It's a 10 foot x 50 foot long dead space. It already has a fence, or house on three sides. I'll secure the open end with fencing. I decided to build a small shelter house for her too.

As far as in the house, I'll seek out professional help to come witness her behavior with strangers. She's gets freaky, whether it's children or adult, so it's important that I recognize the cause of this.

I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood.
But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.

I've made a firm decision to no longer post "Kira did this or that" threads, but I will continue to offer some lovely photos and videos.

In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.

We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.

Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.


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## Rua

Anthony8858 said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I love my Kira to pieces.  I would never let her go
> 
> I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood. But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.
> 
> In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.
> 
> We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.
> 
> Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.


Well said, Anthony!!
And I'm glad to see you're still here and that you've got a plan of action, too. Kira is such a beautiful dog that you've put so much work into already. I personally think you've been VERY proactive with her! She doesn't belong with anyone else but you.


----------



## Castlemaid

cilset said:


> i am totaly newbie in dog owning but i have read here somewhere " dog is not deciding who is and who is not welcomed in MY house" and i am sticking to that phrase.


:thumbup: That is a sign of good leadership. 

And as a general remark, not aimed at anyone here, people tend to defend reactive behaviour as protective, and part of the GSD temperament. Protective is COMPLETELY different from reactive. Protective behaviour comes from a place of complete inner confidence and strenght. It comes from a dog that is confident and comfortable out in the world and is non-reactive to everyday situations.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Originally Posted by *cilset*  
_i am totaly newbie in dog owning but i have read here somewhere " dog is not deciding who is and who is not welcomed in MY house" and i am sticking to that phrase._

And there are many roads to that end. 

For some dogs, it's a simple, it's, knock it off. For others, it helps to be leashed, for others, crated. It also doesn't have to be punitive or corrected - you can turn it around and make it a positive experience for all involved.


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## Bear GSD

Anthony,
I commend you for being proactive with Kira. I know you have been all along and only want what's best for her. I'm glad that you have decided to keep her and work with her. You love her and in your hands I'm sure that things can be worked out in her and your family's best interest. I'm glad that you will keep us updated on her progress, because I like others I'm sure will learn from your experience.
Kira is a lovely dog and I look forward to seeing your videos and pictures of her!


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## carmspack

Anthony that is a good plan .
wish you the best


----------



## Wolfgeist

Anthony8858 said:


> Hi all.
> I've decided to update the thread.
> 
> For starters, I want to say that there is a TON of wonderful advice. And I thank you for that.
> 
> I just want to say that:
> 
> I love my Kira to pieces.  I would never let her go
> 
> I'm installing a "run" on the side of my home. It faces north, so sun and high heat won't be an issue. I have a side door entrance, and it will would give immediate access for the kids to put her in, and take her out, without having to walk out back. It has security cameras, so I can easily check up on her.... Even if I'm not at home, via iPhone app.
> The area is small. It's a 10 foot x 50 foot long dead space. It already has a fence, or house on three sides. I'll secure the open end with fencing. I decided to build a small shelter house for her too.
> 
> As far as in the house, I'll seek out professional help to come witness her behavior with strangers. She's gets freaky, whether it's children or adult, so it's important that I recognize the cause of this.
> 
> I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood.
> But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.
> 
> I've made a firm decision to no longer post "Kira did this or that" threads, but I will continue to offer some lovely photos and videos.
> 
> In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.
> 
> We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.
> 
> Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.


Perfect. I assume you read my post, and I am glad you're going to take care of business away from the forum with a professional. Your plan seems solid, good luck! You have me on facebook if you need advice/someone to talk to. Looking forward to pictures of the beautiful girl!


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## jang

Anthony, I am so pleased that you sat back and developed a plan that will work for all...It was hard to see you in such a state of despair and my PM to you was only a result of that..Please forgive if I overstepped the boundaries with my thoughts..Good luck on your new plan...jan


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## Nickyb

Anthony8858 said:


> Hi all.
> I've decided to update the thread.
> 
> For starters, I want to say that there is a TON of wonderful advice. And I thank you for that.
> 
> I just want to say that:
> 
> I love my Kira to pieces.  I would never let her go
> 
> I'm installing a "run" on the side of my home. It faces north, so sun and high heat won't be an issue. I have a side door entrance, and it will would give immediate access for the kids to put her in, and take her out, without having to walk out back. It has security cameras, so I can easily check up on her.... Even if I'm not at home, via iPhone app.
> The area is small. It's a 10 foot x 50 foot long dead space. It already has a fence, or house on three sides. I'll secure the open end with fencing. I decided to build a small shelter house for her too.
> 
> As far as in the house, I'll seek out professional help to come witness her behavior with strangers. She's gets freaky, whether it's children or adult, so it's important that I recognize the cause of this.
> 
> I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood.
> But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.
> 
> I've made a firm decision to no longer post "Kira did this or that" threads, but I will continue to offer some lovely photos and videos.
> 
> In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.
> 
> We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.
> 
> Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.


Glad to have you back!!!!! Run seems like a great idea for your situation, hopefully after a while you wont need it!
I did a quick search for some possible trainers and came up with the following. I don't know exactly which area your in but these could seem helpful, anyone else know any trainers on Staten island?
(I can't reccomend any of these since I don;t know them but it's a start)
All Island German Shepherd K-9 Services | Puppy Sales | Dog Training | Security Work
About, K9 Advanced, K9 Bedbug Sales,Detection Services for Exterminators,Bedbug Dog Maintenance,Bedbug Dog Boarding, Bed Bug Detection Training, Eliminate Your Dogs Aggression,
Dedicated Dog Training - About Me


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## blehmannwa

I am so glad to hear this. I've thought about you and Kira a lot these few days. I think that you have a good plan and a workable solution. She's a young and resilient dog.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

Bear GSD said:


> Anthony,
> I commend you for being proactive with Kira. I know you have been all along and only want what's best for her. I'm glad that you have decided to keep her and work with her. You love her and in your hands I'm sure that things can be worked out in her and your family's best interest. I'm glad that you will keep us updated on her progress, because I like others I'm sure will learn from your experience.
> Kira is a lovely dog and I look forward to seeing your videos and pictures of her!


Nicely said. I followed the entire thread and my heart was breaking for you Anthony. So glad that you have found a solution that will keep your beautiful girl with you.


----------



## Capone22

Anthony8858 said:


> Hi all.
> I've decided to update the thread.
> 
> For starters, I want to say that there is a TON of wonderful advice. And I thank you for that.
> 
> I just want to say that:
> 
> I love my Kira to pieces.  I would never let her go
> 
> I'm installing a "run" on the side of my home. It faces north, so sun and high heat won't be an issue. I have a side door entrance, and it will would give immediate access for the kids to put her in, and take her out, without having to walk out back. It has security cameras, so I can easily check up on her.... Even if I'm not at home, via iPhone app.
> The area is small. It's a 10 foot x 50 foot long dead space. It already has a fence, or house on three sides. I'll secure the open end with fencing. I decided to build a small shelter house for her too.
> 
> As far as in the house, I'll seek out professional help to come witness her behavior with strangers. She's gets freaky, whether it's children or adult, so it's important that I recognize the cause of this.
> 
> I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood.
> But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.
> 
> I've made a firm decision to no longer post "Kira did this or that" threads, but I will continue to offer some lovely photos and videos.
> 
> In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.
> 
> We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.
> 
> Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.


Great plan. I wish you luck! Please keep updating.  


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jag

I'm glad to see where you came out in all this. I have to admit, I was worried. Not just about Kira, but about your emotional and mental state with all this. The bitch I had put me in the same position over and over for years. The only thing that struck me is... whether or not the kids "like" the dog or not, it's YOUR home. If they can't take the time to put Kira up before letting friends in, then no friends in. Period. I think Kira is workable. My bitch was not. Even so, the feeling of doing something terribly wrong never leaves. I wish you all the best.


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## RocketDog




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## San

Yay! So happy to hear that the two of you will stay together!! Best of luck!


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## katdog5911

Yay!!! I couldn't stop thinking about your situation. So glad you figured something out. You have been an amazing dog owner IMHO. I look at some of the stuff you do with Kira, and think, "I wish Stella would do that". 

And I love reading the "Kira did this" posts. I look forward to your threads. They are never boring! 

Just so you know, you were one of the people whose posts and pms helped me when I was getting so frustrated and ready to throw in the towel. I love it that Kira is not perfect and that you continue to work with her. It inspires me to do the same with Stella. 

Looking forward to the day when those of us with young, reactive dogs can look back on these days and say...."Been there, done that. But it's over and I now have a wonderful, mature, well behaved GSD".


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## Whiteshepherds

That's a nice size run Anthony, she'll be real comfortable there I'm sure. Take pictures when you get it done!


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## Anthony8858

The reason I chose a run, is because I keep Kira out in the yard for hours during the day. Outside of playing with her toys, she has no problem just laying back there, and enjoying the fresh air.
The run is on the side of my home. It will allow the kids to open the back sliders to my yard, yet keep the dog secured. I have the BBQ, table, chairs, etc.. back there. 

I would think that putting her in a place she enjoys would reduce her stress of being removed from the action. 

Not sure why I didn't think of this sooner.. duh.


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## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> The reason I chose a run, is because I keep Kira out in the yard for hours during the day. Outside of playing with her toys, she has no problem just laying back there, and enjoying the fresh air.
> The run is on the side of my home. It will allow the kids to open the back sliders to my yard, yet keep the dog secured. I have the BBQ, table, chairs, etc.. back there.
> 
> I would think that putting her in a place she enjoys would reduce her stress of being removed from the action.
> 
> Not sure why I didn't think of this sooner.. duh.


Sometimes it just takes a little longer until it dawns on us. BTDT 

You are doing the right thing. You certainly seem to have the premises and the means to build her a beautiful run. 

Another thing you can do is, if she likes Kongs with Peanutbutter, Cow Hoves or anything else to chew on... always have a couple of Kongs ready in the freezer so whenever she has to be removed from the action you can give her one outside. 

It's not something you have to do but I do that with the boarding dogs I'm having here. Whenever they have to be removed and go into the crate, they get a Kong with frozen Peanutbutter, that way they keep quiet. Since she's at home, she might not need that at all, I'd still do it though


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## TrickyShepherd

I'm really happy to hear this Anthony. I think you have a GREAT plan and I wish you the best of luck! Thankfully, Kira has an amazing owner and will be able to be enjoyed for what she is.... even if she is a bit quirky.


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## hopper65

*Many thanks to Kira's Mom*

Thank you for sharing your story.

I just joined this forum. I'm looking to be as informed as possible. I have a 9 month GSD, Zeke. He is not my first GSD and I have six other dogs in the house. We also rescue dogs and have found homes for three other dogs who are very sweet and loving companions to their new families. 

I love him to death and we are very bonded. The video of Kira is nothing compared to how insane he reacts. When he is in attack mode I can only pull him off with great physical force and great risk of being bit. He is incredibly focused on whatever he is after. I know some of his behavior is consistent with his breed. He is very protective and super vigilant. He has bitten me a number of times, but nothing serious. He is also afraid of everything( diagnosis fear agression). He has attacked all of our small dogs, two had to go to the vet. Most recently he continued to attack even after the other dog showed her belly and was submissive. He grew up with these dogs, they are not new to him. We've been to the behavioral clinic at OSU and I've been in frequent contact with the behaviorist. We've been to basic training, which back fired. I need to get him in to a desensitzation program recommended by the behaviorist. I've read numerous books, websites, talked to "experts". 

For safety he now must be kept separate from all other dogs/cats. He must be crated when ever any children are around, or any friends come in the house. He must be kept on a very strict routine which includes DAP collar, Prozac and distraction (Kongs and the like). I can only exercise him late at night or early in the morning when there are no other people/dogs out. I'm training him to get used to a thundershirt and a muzzle.

I'm now to the point, like Kira's mom, where I think I need to build him a large run so I can be sure he can't get out and hurt anyone or anything.

Supposedly, we will be able to desensistize him over time. It just seems like no way for a big healthy dog to live. All of this intervention goes against everything I've always believed about dogs. I never in a million years thought I'd agree to medicate a dog. Training definitely, but medication? I was critical of friends who did medicate their dogs.

I understand what you are going through. A year ago, I would not have understood. I've had to live through it myself.


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## carmspack

" When he is in attack mode I can only pull him off with great physical force and great risk of being bit. He is incredibly focused on whatever he is after.
- part removed ---
He is very protective and super vigilant. He has bitten me a number of times, but nothing serious. He is also afraid of everything( diagnosis fear agression). He has attacked all of our small dogs, two had to go to the vet. Most recently he continued to attack even after the other dog showed her belly and was submissive"

I am so sorry that your dog is so much trouble . This is not normal nor is it (part reinserted) " I know some of his behavior is consistent with his breed.", not at all . If it were normal I would have no interest in the breed . Instead the GSD can provide great service and positive things to "us" but there has to be a stable temperament at the base which allows for this. 
It would be interesting to critically examine how and why such temperament came to be , looking at the pedigree, early diet, early raising and exposure --- not saying that you created it - early signs .


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## Sunflowers

hopper65 said:


> Thank you for sharing your story.
> 
> I just joined this forum. I'm looking to be as informed as possible. I have a 9 month GSD, Zeke. He is not my first GSD and I have six other dogs in the house. We also rescue dogs and have found homes for three other dogs who are very sweet and loving companions to their new families.
> 
> I love him to death and we are very bonded. The video of Kira is nothing compared to how insane he reacts. When he is in attack mode I can only pull him off with great physical force and great risk of being bit. He is incredibly focused on whatever he is after. I know some of his behavior is consistent with his breed. He is very protective and super vigilant. He has bitten me a number of times, but nothing serious. He is also afraid of everything( diagnosis fear agression). He has attacked all of our small dogs, two had to go to the vet. Most recently he continued to attack even after the other dog showed her belly and was submissive. He grew up with these dogs, they are not new to him. We've been to the behavioral clinic at OSU and I've been in frequent contact with the behaviorist. We've been to basic training, which back fired. I need to get him in to a desensitzation program recommended by the behaviorist. I've read numerous books, websites, talked to "experts".
> 
> For safety he now must be kept separate from all other dogs/cats. He must be crated when ever any children are around, or any friends come in the house. He must be kept on a very strict routine which includes DAP collar, Prozac and distraction (Kongs and the like). I can only exercise him late at night or early in the morning when there are no other people/dogs out. I'm training him to get used to a thundershirt and a muzzle.
> 
> I'm now to the point, like Kira's mom, where I think I need to build him a large run so I can be sure he can't get out and hurt anyone or anything.
> 
> Supposedly, we will be able to desensistize him over time. It just seems like no way for a big healthy dog to live. All of this intervention goes against everything I've always believed about dogs. I never in a million years thought I'd agree to medicate a dog. Training definitely, but medication? I was critical of friends who did medicate their dogs.
> 
> I understand what you are going through. A year ago, I would not have understood. I've had to live through it myself.


Do you think he has a good, happy, normal life?


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## JackandMattie

Anthony8858 said:


> I'm installing a "run" on the side of my home. It faces north, so sun and high heat won't be an issue. I have a side door entrance, and it will would give immediate access for the kids to put her in, and take her out, without having to walk out back. It has security cameras, so I can easily check up on her.... Even if I'm not at home, via iPhone app.
> The area is small. It's a 10 foot x 50 foot long dead space. It already has a fence, or house on three sides. I'll secure the open end with fencing. I decided to build a small shelter house for her too.


GENIUS! 



Anthony8858 said:


> Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.


Amen.


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## andreaB

Anthony so glad you back and have plan for Kira. you are great dog owner.And please don't give up on posting about her,if you can, I know some people can upset you but it's help so many others with reactive dogs and you have great advices for training


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## hopper65

From:

Do you think he has a good, happy, normal life? 
__________________
Norden von Narnia--Hans, dob _1-15-2012_:gsdhead:
http://pdgf.pitapata.com/38lbm5.png 


No, I don't think he has a normal life at all. He is constantly stressed. I had to cut his walk short last night because he was panting, constantly swiveling his head, walking erratically. It was 9:30 at night but every little noise and movement was setting him off. I try very hard to stay in his routine and do everything at the same time in the same way, otherwise he gets very stressed. If I am even 15 minutes late putting him to bed, he starts to freak out. My poor, poor baby


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## hopper65

*Loving my psycho boy*

I talked to the behaviorist about why he is like this. I was sure I did something wrong. No one can say for sure. Zeke was an accident. A friend of mine who has two GSD protection dogs was watching her sisters GSD. I met the bitch at a softball game because they were trying to socialize her. They have a good deal of experience with the breed. The bitch was very small, timid, stressed, skittish and very underweight. The dad is a 140 pound GSD bred for protection. I didn't think about all of this when I agreed to take one of the puppies. I love GSD's, grew up with them.

I guess with eight puppies, mom couldn't feed them all so they had to wean early with a combination of bottle feedings and regular food. The house is very small, maybe 800 Sq ft with three adult GSD's and eight puppies. When I went to see him, the house was very chaotic, the owner was sick and they generally had a mess on their hands. All the pups had diarhhea. I got him at 8 weeks. I made sure he was very socialized with other dogs, kids, cats, strangers as a puppy. He was quickly house broken, learned to go in his crate, ride in the car and was very loving and friendly. He was always a little timid but did not show any extreme skittishness or fear. When he was four months I started him out with a trainer. They were one on one classes. Meeting the trainer is the first time I realized that he had fear aggression. We did training on the basic commands for about two months. He loved going, he was always very excited to get into the trainers house each week. He learned the commands very quickly, then began to backslide. He stopped performing the commands and laid down on my feet, or bit my feet. The training was completely "no" based - no choke collars, etc. I decided to stop the training and took him to Ohio State to be evaluated. 

The behaviorist said definitely stop the training and try to reduce as much stimulus as possible so we can get him to a place where we can start to work with him. Keep him away from other animals, never take him to the dog park or pet store, and take him out for walks when it is not busy outside. Refocus him with yummy treats and kongs.

My friends still have three of the puppies plus the two adult protection dogs. I know she is struggling to handle them all.



carmspack said:


> " When he is in attack mode I can only pull him off with great physical force and great risk of being bit. He is incredibly focused on whatever he is after.
> - part removed ---
> He is very protective and super vigilant. He has bitten me a number of times, but nothing serious. He is also afraid of everything( diagnosis fear agression). He has attacked all of our small dogs, two had to go to the vet. Most recently he continued to attack even after the other dog showed her belly and was submissive"
> 
> I am so sorry that your dog is so much trouble . This is not normal nor is it (part reinserted) " I know some of his behavior is consistent with his breed.", not at all . If it were normal I would have no interest in the breed . Instead the GSD can provide great service and positive things to "us" but there has to be a stable temperament at the base which allows for this.
> It would be interesting to critically examine how and why such temperament came to be , looking at the pedigree, early diet, early raising and exposure --- not saying that you created it - early signs .


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## Anthony8858

SInce the thread's been reopened, I'll update..

The run has been working great, as well as strict crating when guests are floating around. Kira still gets excited when people are around, but as long as I'm around, I can manage and keep her calm. However, if I'm not around, my family has been very cooperative, and have been crating her.
Ive been keeping a close eye, and have been trying to introduce guests with greets and treats. She's been better lately, but as I learned prior, she can't be completely trusted.

I'd rather be safe than sorry.

BTW... Kira loves her new dog run. 


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm glad the family is on board and helping out! Glad she likes her new run to


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## Anthony8858

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm glad the family is on board and helping out! Glad she likes her new run to


Much easier, but I do have to be careful. 

She gets real " huffy- puffy" when people are in my house. She eventually calms down, but I can see her giving someone a scare. 

You guys were right. She needs to be managed. 


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## Whiteshepherds

Glad to hear she likes her run!


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## debbiebrown

i didn't see a correction with the dog, just getting more keyed up straining at the end of the leash which makes it worse. i would definitely get some professional help so that you can manage and correct things.


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## Anthony8858

debbiebrown said:


> i didn't see a correction with the dog, just getting more keyed up straining at the end of the leash which makes it worse. i would definitely get some professional help so that you can manage and correct things.


Debbie, the video was "staged". I wanted the behavior identified. I wasn't looking for corrections just yet. 
Just wanted to know what others thought she was doing. 


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## Blitzkrieg1

All dogs differ in their reactivity. My female can meet someone take treats from them be go for a walk with them and seem ok. All of a sudden person leaves the room and returns and you get the reaction all over again. So nothing new there. Some dogs can be reactive meet the stimuli and be ok after that. 

I understand your dillema. When you think of German Shepherd you think guardian, partner, trustworthy companion. Instead you ended up with a reactive dog that you cannot fully trust around other people. A dog you have to always keep an eye on. A dog that loves you and your family but is a danger to anyone else be they a threat or not.
The bottom line is there always be an element of risk with a reactive dog. You can put OB on her, you can counter condition and these things help and minimize the risk. However will she ever be the same as a confident dog, with good nerves and a clear head? A dog that can be more then just a pet but a partner? A dog you can trust with the kids and their friends? Possible but not likely imo.
So now you have a difficult choice keep the reactive dog, know that she will be happy with you but will likely not give you the same relationship and experience as a better nerved dog.
Or you re home her, and go with the alternative, but the dog has to adjust to a new home.

If you have the space and can have two even better. A strong stable nerved male might help to settle her down, they feed off each other so much.. though I wouldnt rely too much on that. But you can get the guardian and partner aspect from him and contain her more without compromising her security or yours.
Tough choices all around.


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## Anthony8858

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> All dogs differ in their reactivity. My female can meet someone take treats from them be go for a walk with them and seem ok. All of a sudden person leaves the room and returns and you get the reaction all over again. So nothing new there. Some dogs can be reactive meet the stimuli and be ok after that.
> 
> I understand your dillema. When you think of German Shepherd you think guardian, partner, trustworthy companion. Instead you ended up with a reactive dog that you cannot fully trust around other people. A dog you have to always keep an eye on. A dog that loves you and your family but is a danger to anyone else be they a threat or not.
> The bottom line is there always be an element of risk with a reactive dog. You can put OB on her, you can counter condition and these things help and minimize the risk. However will she ever be the same as a confident dog, with good nerves and a clear head? A dog that can be more then just a pet but a partner? A dog you can trust with the kids and their friends? Possible but not likely imo.
> So now you have a difficult choice keep the reactive dog, know that she will be happy with you but will likely not give you the same relationship and experience as a better nerved dog.
> Or you re home her, and go with the alternative, but the dog has to adjust to a new home.
> 
> If you have the space and can have two even better. A strong stable nerved male might help to settle her down, they feed off each other so much.. though I wouldnt rely too much on that. But you can get the guardian and partner aspect from him and contain her more without compromising her security or yours.
> Tough choices all around.


Pretty much sums it up. 

Thank you. 


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## SueDoNimm

I didn't read this thread the first time around, but I got to the part where you seemed to be contemplating rehoming her and jumped to the end. I'm glad to see you've found a solution and I hope the new run is giving you and Kira some peace. I've had a soft spot for her ever since I saw her pedigree you posted and saw that she's related to my dog. Good luck with your beautiful girl!


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