# My dog nipped a jogger



## abooot99 (Oct 23, 2006)

Hi everyone, I type this in tears...I have a 2.5 year old shepherd. He is territorial. We live on 1.5 acres close to a street not frequented by too many people, since there aren't side walks and people go 45-50 down it. So, I have my shepherd that I have worked very hard at obediance with, getting advanced and his CGC under him. So, he is a pretty good dog. We have a kennel outside and then we have the rest of the property. In the mornings, I take them out to throw the ball around and they stay in the yard. Once before, my shepherd ran after a jogger but the jogger stopped and he just barked and came back to me when I called for him. That was early spring. He had maybe one other incident of running up to a person walking their dog and he barked and came back. We don't let him out unsupervised. We were weary about letting him out since then and are always on the lookout for people or dogs that he could "harrass". He has never been known to be aggressive towards humans- just loud and barking when they were in front of our property.

Today, I had him out playing ball like usual and a large man jogger was going by- my dog saw him before me and made the run for him. He ran right down to the man, the man continued to jog, only stopping when my dog was REAL close and he yelled at my dog- meanwhile- I say I am sorry and he won't bite. WELL, oh contrare- The man didn't seem to panic but he stood there while I tried to get control my my dog and during the exchange when he came back to me, I apologized alot and asked him- did he bite you? The man looked at me and sort of said yeah. I said are you ok and he said I am fine and he proceeded to run. I asked if there was something I could do and he just shook his head implying NO and kept running, leisurly. He didn't appear to be angry or anything. He acted like nothing happened. 
I am so upset, and beside myself, I don't know what to do besides ban him from ever being out in the yard again. When I saw my dog barking at the man, he got close- I think when the man attempted to ignore him and thats when I think the dog nipped his butt. I want to say it was herding type nipping because he didn't appear to be in distress like someone that was actually bitten- possibly just pinched and brushed it off but I am having a heart attack!

For further information, my shepherd is battling a skin condition, undiagnosed since he was 8 weeks old. Thousands of dollars in testing, and they still dont know. Lately, he is chewing all over and is quite uncomfortable . His face has sores that he keeps scratching, causing bigger wounds and bleeding. We have a dermatology appointment coming up. I didn't know if it could be medically related. He has also been on prednisone multiple times and didn't know if this med might have caused his behavior but we've been dealing with the skin forever. 

He is not on our insurence policy nor is he registered. The town hall is not open when I get out of work and they keep saying wait until next year or something. 

I am a wreck! Now he has a "dog bite" under him. Generally, he loves people and wants them to pat him all the time but this territorial thing happened and now I don't know. Yes he is neutered and UTD on his shots.

Any advice? I put a call into a behaviorist for an eval.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

If it makes you feel better, it's not a bite if the skin isn't broken. 

You do need to get your dog registered with your town. Saying they're not open when you get out of work is a poor excuse. It's going to be a big fine if your animal control officer has to come out. 

Check with your insurance agent but my dogs aren't on my insurance becuase they don't need to be. They don't have a bite history (legally recorded...) so on first offence, your insurance will cover it then cancel you.


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## abooot99 (Oct 23, 2006)

Now, I am going on the assumption that he didn't break skin given that the man proceeded as he was. This is something that I can't confirm and unless this man takes this case and runs with it, I won't know. Given this information, does it sound like a bite to you? Just the way the man kind of proceeded like it was just another dumb dog indicated it wasn't serious. But my paranoid self says well, it was really cold (30's farenheit) and maybe he didn't feel it because his butt was numb, could be possible too.

I plan on taking care of the licensing thing now but as far as my insurence goes, I don't know what I am going to do. I may call up anonomously seeing if they would insure my dog. I insure with citimortgage.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote: I insure with citimortgage.


Your mortgage company does not cover your homeowner's insurance (they may disburse it for you.) You need to call whoever covers your home for losses to see if they cover your dog.

My dogs are not listed on my insurance. As someone else said, they did not require it since there is no bite history. They are aware I have dogs.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Different people have different definitions of what constitutes a dog bite. The most common legal definition is that the skin was broken, but that can include everything from a puncture wound to the first layer of skin just barely rippled. I use to evaluate dog bite cases for animal control, so I have seen a very wide variety.
It could be that your dog simply bumped the jogger with his nose, or perhaps he gripped with his mouth but didn't apply pressure. Or maybe the jogger went home and discovered a bruise and some broken skin. You might not ever know.
What you do know is that your dog has now left your property three times and rushed/bothered people using the public road. You need to keep him contained. If his training level doesn't include a solid recall (regardless of what is going on to stimulate him), he should never be off leash. It stinks that you have such a huge area that he won't be able to enjoy, but keeping him on leash and under control from now on will save his life. Make a 30 foot training line and use that. 
I think getting a behaviorist to evaluate him is a great idea. Work on the behavior and his obedience skills. Make sure that the behaviorist is skilled enough to work with you and your dog. 
I would think that the skin condition could make your guy a bit more reactive, and prednisone has steroids in it and those can be behaviorally altering. But I think your under lying issue is one of training. He has been upping his behavior all along the way, and to him putting his mouth on the jogger was the next step that made sense.
Good luck. You seem willing to work with him, and that is in your favor (and his). 
Sheilah


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Since he has a history of chasing people passing by, IMO you should have seen this coming. Fortunately, this wasn't much of a bite and this particular man appears to have no desire to make a big deal about it. The next person this happens to may not feel so kindly about the situation.

Can you put up a fence to serve as a physical barrier so he cannot leave the property and bother people in the public access areas? That would be the best solution. Then you can play ball all you want without having to worry about what might happen, and he cannot menace passersby.

I would also seriously look into more training for your dog. You should have him under your complete control at all times, and that means you should be able to stop him in his tracks if he takes off after someone. This takes time to accomplish and will also probably require you working with a good professional trainer to get him to that point. But as dog owners, particularly a large breed that already has somewhat of a bad rep for being dangerous, it is our responsibility to ourselves, our dogs and society to make sure our dogs are safe and under our control at all times. Until he has that level of training, I would either not play ball, or use a long line (or maybe an ecollar) as a safety net so the next time you can use physical force to stop him before he charges or bites someone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This IS a big deal. Hopefully, it is a wake-up call and nothing more will come of it. But you cannot afford to sweep your hand across your brow and relax. 

Your dog is a large breed dog bred to herd and guard. He was guarding his territory, doing his job. A guy running along is a threat and your dog decided to protect you and your property. This was a bad decision on his part. 

I would suggest taking him out to where joggers are and make him sit quietly on a stay as they go by, but the chances are he will only do this at your home -- his territory. Well, more training is always in order. 

The fence is excellent advice, and I want to add to it. Do not fence the whole acre and a half. First, it is not necessary. Second, that is way expensive. Third, you can always expand your fenceline later if need be. Forth, it is a lot easier to keep a smaller area safe of problem items and keep the fence in good condition. 

I would fence your back yard. Or some of it, the area where your dog run is. and maybe 50 x 30 feet. Your back door opening to this is nice because then you do not have to grab the leash in the morning to put the dog in the kennel. UNTIL YOU HAVE IT FENCED THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. keep the dog leashed 100% of the time he is not in the house or in his kennel/run. 

Territorial dogs may become barrier aggressive too. Having your fence well off the road in your back yard will prevent a lot of this. 

It is not cheap to fence in a portion of your yard, but a lawsuit will cost you a whole lot more, and may cost you your dog's life too. A dog that will not come when ordered to may also not hear you when chasing a cat or a squirrel or a rabbit. It really sucks when the guy who smooshed your dog asks you to repair his vehicle, but he is well within his rights. Footing the bill for a fence now may mean not having to put a $2000 rod in your dog's leg, or not have to pay several thousand in damages. 

Good luck. 

If you are out there with the dog when he goes out, the fence has to LOOK like a barrier, but does not have to be all that wonderful. The better fence you make now, the less you will have to do in maintaining it though. 

And register your dog. All that happy horse$#!+ on the canine good citizen test completely went over your head. Registering your dog / licensing your dog according to the laws in your area is part of being a responsible dog owner.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Fence in a portion of your yard if possible, otherwise always have him on a long line (leash that is 15 feet to 50 feet plus). Go back to training classes (your dog may have to be in classes for life if it helps his behavior). Never let him off leash on your property unless he is behind a fence. You know your dog is now a potential liability so now you have to protect the world from your dog. NO EXCEPTIONS! He has lost off-leash freedom in an unprotected area for the rest of his life. Finally, work on your recall! Make the recall super duper fun. Never call him to punish. If you find he ignores you occasionally, choose a new word (instead of "come," use "here") and retrain the recall from step one. The second he learns that he can disobey the recall is the moment that your recall command is potentially useless. This is a very tough command to learn when it comes to situations of high distraction. A good, solid recall means your dog could be up to his ears in cats and squirrels and drop everything just to come flying at you in response to the recall command. Awaiting his response should be food, toys, treats, games, all sorts of fun, awesome things! This could save his butt one day, and so can an emergency sit or emergency down. Often, it's more reliable to down/sit a dog than it is to recall it. 

As to his skin condition, what are you feeding him? Some dogs have grain allergies, others have protein allergies, others have allergies to all sorts of unexpected things and this could be an allergy.


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## abooot99 (Oct 23, 2006)

Ok so I made an appointment with his trainer for a behavior consult for Monday. My husband and I will register him with the town on Monday as well in addition to seeing a dermatologist for his chronic skin problem. 

I think what we are going to do is put up that wire fence stuff where you just put stakes into the ground and secure the fence to that along the front of our property and up the side of it as well. Then, we will get the electric fence wire to run along the fence as an added protection. Eventually do the fence all around our property but for now, just the front and sides. This will probably help out tremendously. We already have a kennel attached to the house and so we just let the dogs out and they are in it. It's a good size but what we like to do is let them run loose around the property only when we are present and watching them 100%. So we will probably keep him in the kennel area until we do that fence.

Hopefully the behaviorist (that breeds shepherds) will have some insight. He is pretty popular (didn't know if anyone knows him- his name is Jim Ward out of Amherst, NH?

Anyways, we will do all that we are capable of. Oh and I totally wasn't thinking when I said citimortgage was our insurence provider- I was not thinking clearly in hysterics......ok there it is.
Thanks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Remember that your GSD is intelligent and will remember EXACTLY where he needs to go to get around the fence. 

I use the horse fence on T posts and it is perfect so long as you are out there. 

The electric wire (mine is solar powered) will keep him from climbing and digging. They look at the wire first and then lunge at the cat so that they do not touch the wire. 

This WILL NOT stop barrier aggression if it occurs. 

I hope this works out for you and your dog.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I agree with Chris and Selzer, because Timber, my dog, did the same thing, not once, but twice. He did not bite, but in one case scared a young girl, after dark, and in another case knocked down a jogger.

I sought the help of a trainer and a well known behavior specialist.

The trainer suggested a long line and an immediate correction if the dog when after a jogger, and anyone else walking by. This worked, but nonetheless I will not totally trust the dog.

Ironically, the report from the behavior specialist told me you should never put your dog in a situation in which an incident like thios could occur again. Of course, I agreed. But she went on to add that Timber is an European GSD and considering your properties are on both sides of the road he has decided his number one job is protection of you and your property. 

In my case the bottom line is I need to be very careful not putting the dog in these situations. I will add that he is great at nursing home visits, in large crowds, etc. And, he was so socialized he met all my neighbors, other dogs, etc. 

I also know, some will disagree, and say I could train this dog to never knock down another jogger, but i am not willing to take that chance.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I think in the long run, stockade fence is a better bet than the wire mesh fence with a wire in it. They can't see through it to have aggression with what's on the other side - trust me it works so much better than chain link or privacy weave. I just installed 40' of stockade last summer to keep my sanity when my neighbors terrier puppy wouldn't stop barking everytime someone came in or out of my house. Now we don't see him and he doesn't see us, it's so much quieter.

Stockade shouldn't cost you more than $35 per every 8'x6' section. I installed it myself with my 2 preschool age boys.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mine was crappier $26 panels. It would have looked awful out by the road, but it looks great behind my house. 

This is what it looks like and was put up to keep them from going crazy when the neighbors use their back yard:










This is how it transitions to the horse fencing. The horse fencing is now just along the back where the county property is, there is a huge ravine and no people back there for the dogs to bark at:









And here is the back area:









I do not think either will look good up against the road though.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Dogs, especially herding dogs, are really interested in chasing that which runs. Especially that which runs by their territory. Runners are just so hard to resist.

I think a wire fence with the amount of property you have, with you expecting to be out with your dog, will work very well. A privacy fence is better but oh my is it expensive for the size you're talking! When I was living on an acre, stock fence worked fine. Actually, it was a mishmash - 4 foot picket at one corner, stock fence part of the way, chain link on two sides, & totally funky salvage for part of another. Part of it came with the place, one section of chain link and the stock fence was my contribution.

If you could get friends to jog by, you could do a lot of work with your dog regarding joggers. I'd consider a desensitising routine like Pam Miller recommends for dog arguments.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Truthfully, you now know there is a problem (for sure) and so now need to fix it (for sure).

A fence would be a 100% fix, immediately.

Continued SOCIALIZATION and training would be a great addition to that. The socialization would train your dog to know YOU are in charge and if you say everything is ok, it is. So they don't have to do any chasing or guarding. You said the guy was ok, so IT IS.

And the training would give you a reliable 'come' or 'sit' or 'down'. Cause if your dog had done ANY of those rather than ignoring you to chase the guy, there would never have been an issue. 

So the good news is you can be proactive and still get the dog we all want to have! A save and beloved member of the family and the community.


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## Julie'somom (Jun 13, 2004)

agreeing 100% with Chris. GSDs have the reputation and we can not afford to allow them the leisure of not paying attention to us....at least I sure can't!!! I know my dog needs to be tuned up every spring just because she has been a house dog all winter and is feeling pretty perky in the spring.
julis'omom


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Put up a fence, put up a fence, put up a fence. Never ever believe and totally trust that your dog is not capable of biting. One day you may be wearing egg on your face or worse. Your dog is an animal first and foremost and depending on the momentary circumstances may just revert to animal behavior. A jogger can be considered prey by some dogs. 

Chris Wild and Selzer are right on target, do NOT make light of this in any way. Your dog has given you a minimum of two warnings. My suggestion is you heed those warnings and take steps to prevent something more serious happening. We live in a sue-happy society, there are at least two witnesses that the dog has at least at times and minimally not been the most friendly of critters. You have several things working against you already should something worse happen and you wind up in court, I can pretty much assure you that you will lose and it won't be pretty.

There was a thread awhile back about a dog biting a jogger, got quite extensive. I tried to find it and should have been able to since I posted on it myself. Maybe the "maintenance dept" has deleted it







Maybe someone else remembers it. 

Please, for your sake and that of your dog, put up a good strong fence, high enough he can't get out.

My dog has a bite record, too, and I NEVER thought he'd do that, at least not unless there was a &%$# good reason for it. Well, in *his* mind there was - he was protecting me. Unfortunately, I didn't need protecting when this happened! Dogs read things differently than people do many times. This man was NOT trying to hurt me, but my male didn't see it that way. This poor guy was only trying to help me, but to my male he got to close to me and that was all it took and CHOMP! I got lucky and this guy was really good about it. It was what I call a "hit & run warning bite" tooth punctures only, he hit once and backed off like nothing had even happened - he didn't bite and hang on or continue to bite or maul. He hit, he bit, he backed off immediately. I never knew a dog could move like greased lighting, I never saw it coming. Bottom line is that my dog bit someone. I don't know if *I* will ever get over that even though there was very little damage. For me, it's just a horrible horrible feeling.

I took him to a behaviorist and that turned out to be pretty much a waste of my money. Not that I don't believe in them, but this particular one just doesn't have a strong enough background dealing with working dogs and dogs with aggression problems or something. Unfortunately, I didn't know that before I paid the bill and because she wanted BOTH dogs there, it was double the bill.

Good luck. Oh, did I mention "put up a fence?"


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Our Shepherds like chasing what runs as someone said. So a week ago Saturday I put up a kennel, five feet high, and about 400 square feet. Guess what, my rescue, a mild Shepherd jumped over the fence. Being that the rescue would never even growl, I liked the attitide. However, if you go for a fence keep it at least six feet high.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, mine are six foot high and covered over. 

The covering, eleven gage fencing across the top does cause its share of issues. it is 2" x 4" rectangle shaped fencing. And when the snow falls thick and wet and heavy it clings to it until it forms a covering and continues to build. Then I have to go in with my rake and "help" it to the ground. 

Also, I am 5'7" and six foot fencing is perfect. Putting on the sun screens and taking them off, it is far enough above my head to give me a good crook in the neck and shoulders from the work. But in the winter, once the snow starts sticking to the ground and is trampled back and forth by the pitter patter of many paws, well, I end up GROWING. Then, I smack my head on the 2x4s across the top of the thing, hmmph!!! 

But it keeps the pups from climbing or jumping out of the kennel.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Aboot99,

I appreciate your coming here for advice. And you've received some good advice. But please remember that this is a public forum, and if the guy opts to sue, it's discoverable in a law suit. And people sue for the darnedest things.

Just be careful what you say here. 

Sometimes, people forget that when an incident happens with their dogs. We just need to be careful. That's all. We're a group of friends here, but we're not in a private room. 

I'm not an attorney, just someone that wants to make sure you don't have anything bad happen to you.


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## cgarrity (Apr 22, 2008)

Get a fence or keep the dog on a leash when he's outside. You are 100% liable for anything that your dog does to anyone. You don't want this to happen again so it's best that you keep your dog under control 100% of the time. Since the dog can run into the street and get hit by a car when he's outside it's also best for your dog to fence him in to allow him to get safe and secure exercise and eliminate your worries about your dog leaving your property and getting into trouble.


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## abooot99 (Oct 23, 2006)

Ok everyone. I went and saw a behaviorist last Monday- he is qualified as he trains trainers and trains for police work, etc. I went to most of his classes for obediance and got to advanced and his CGC with this man. 
He told me that it isn't unusual for male shepherds to be very protective of female handlers. In his schutzhund training sessions, some owners use all they have and they still have trouble at times with keeping their dogs in line at times. The trainer also mentioned that these dogs change from 1.5 - 2.5 years old and maybe older and become more territorial, more protective, possibly aggressive, etc and there is not a lot you can do besides up the training and continue good leadership. He said I have done a great job with his training and it really is not my fault that he is "changing". We just have to manage him more. 

The next step for my dog is e-collar work. He recommended the dogtra 1900 NCP and to come back when I get the unit in so he can teach me how to operate it properly. He said this should work nicely for my dog and getting him under off leash voice control.

I am going to be working on a fence. I just dropped $750 for a dermatology visit and another $1600 for deep ear cleaning and intradermal allergy test today. We will be starting allergy shots as we discovered he is allergic to dust mites, grass, trees, mold, etc so we are dishing the money out. 

I am going to keep him on a short leash until the yard is completely fenced in. We have multiple issues with him. I am aware of the seriousness of this matter. That is why I am here. This is by no means something I am taking lightly. However, I don't even know for sure if he even bit the guy. When I asked the guy, I think he said yes and shook his head but don't know as I have a hearing problem and often mishear what people say. But aside from this, I will never trust him out of my sight and control ever again. Bite or no bite, he ran up to him aggressively. The jogger continues his early morning jog and goes by my house I believe so he must not be that upset. 

I appreciate all of everyone's advice and stories. 
Anyone use the e-collar? I understand it is controversal but I'd like to hear a hint of what people think.
Thanks
Amanda


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

well, before you drop another load on an e-collar, consider this: if your dog views the jogger as a charging attacker, shocking him is going to reinforce this thought. 6 foot wire fence, comes on a roll at Lowes/home depot. Less than $100 to put it in.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

You're right e-collars are controversial and for me = confusion compounded. I didn't like the idea but we have one. We first tested it on ourselves before putting it on the dog. Make sure you read all directions as turning the collar on and off needs to be done while the collar is NOT on the dog - at least with the brand we have and your dog should not be wearing any metal collars or tags when the e-collar is worn. You also according to some sources must never zap the dog when there's another dog in close proximity or the one being zapped may think the other dog caused this discomfort and then you can wind up w/a dog fight on your hands. I'm sure there are those that disagree, but I go with what I consider better safe than sorry.

For me, the e-collar is a "strong arm" or "last ditch attempt" approach, I thought of it as my last chance. In some situations with some dogs it can be very effective and even absolutely necessary for safety reasons in others. Some dogs in high prey mode will fly over e-fences and ignore e-collar zaps. My point here is to tell you not to expect miracles. Our e-collar spends 99% of it's time in a plastic container. The only time I use it is if I'm taking him somewhere there could be a safety issue.

For every good reason to use an e-collar there seems to be a negative right behind it and vice versa. Pain or discomfort from an e-zap = a negative in my mind. I'm sure there are those that disagree, but that's my feeling. 

At this point I feel we have been going about things the wrong way all this time. I hope that this time I'm right and that I have found a good working answer. Thinking back, we have been quite negative when dealing with him and that he came to us with lack of confidence which we did not recognize. It just makes sense that if someone told me "no" or "leave it" a dozen times or more a day, it sure wouldn't lend itself to having a confident dog with a positive outlook. Now, don't get me wrong, he's showered with "gooood boys" all day long, too.

Soooooo, I have found clicker training and more positive ways of redirecting him rather than the more negative way we've been doing things. It's to soon to tell yet if it will really have any effect. I think I see a very minor change but I don't want to get to excited at this point. I am not stupid enough to think I can click away or positively motivate the prey drive out of him, so interaction with small dogs and other small animals will probably always be out of the question. I think I've pretty much finally given up the dog park which was always very important to us. It may be time to just accept he'll never be able to go there. It literally breaks my heart because he always had such a good time there and I just do NOT understand why this changed. I feel like "it's not fair but then life isn't fair."

One nice thing is that the neighbor lady on the side of us, she's not afraid of him and she's willing to work with him to get him to stop charging the fence at her. So, she has a container of treets she keeps outside on her table, when he acts up she tells him to sit and when he's sitting he gets a treat through the fence. So far, she says he's not actually charging UP ON the fence anymore, but instead staying on all fours charging and barking. For him, that's a significant improvement.

All around for your problem, I'd opt for the fence.


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