# interpack aggression -- hierarchy related?



## SandiR2 (Sep 15, 2009)

(Sorry -- I forgot to add "Non-GSD" to the thread title...)


I've got 4 dogs whose details are:
Patch: 6 years, neutered Australian Shepherd -- has been here since 2005
Cherry: 5 years, intact female Malinois -- has been here since 07/2009
Bud: 3 years, neutered Beagle -- has been here since 2007
Vinny: 1-1/2 years, neutered Malinois -- has been here since 04/2009

(The order of arrival in the household was Rascal (deceased), Patch, Bud, Vinny, and then Cherry -- if that makes any difference.)

Patch was the dominant dog over Rascal, who was a 9-year-old GSD. When Bud came as a puppy he seemed to take over that role. Patch would give up his bone, food, etc. when Bud came over and tried to take it. He was never aggressive towards him over any of this. Patch has always been aggressive towards strangers at the house -- mailman, UPS, salesmen at the door, etc. He has to be crated or put in another room or he will charge the door and attempt to bite. We've tried training a "place" command, but even with a year of working at it he is still not reliable on it.

Patch was a rescue and has no social skills whatsoever when it comes to knowing how to be a dog. He doesn't play at all, either with dogs or toys, and never has. Actually... I take that back. He used to wrestle around with Bud, but since Vinny and Cherry came that is their activity and Patch doesn't take part anymore. When the 3 of them run and play outside Patch is either standing to the side or he gets anxious (?) about it and begins stalking. Usually Vinny. He will get aggressive if one of the others barks while playing, as if he doesn't "get" that it's just a game at this point. Again, if it makes a difference, his prey drive is off the charts. He was evaluated when we were having trouble with him and the new kitten last year (no longer living here) and he was pretty much the worst case she'd seen as far as not being able to redirect. When in prey drive he just checks out and nothing else matters to him. I could dangle a steak in his face and he wouldn't even notice it.

Since Vinny and Cherry arrived I can't exactly tell what the pecking order is. On the surface it seems as though Vinny is on top -- he rushes out the door ahead of the others, takes toys from them, humps, etc. Most of the humping takes the form of doing it to Patch but he also isn't discriminatory and is an equal-opportunity humper. lol. Cherry displays typical bitch behavior but definitely isn't the leader. Bud is just Bud. He just wants to be loved, and fed. haha

In the past few months relations between Patch and Vinny have deteriorated. Frequent scuffles have taken place, and they have now been increasing in frequency and intensity. The typical scenario is Vinny playing with a toy, another dog, or one of us. Patch will notice and then stare at Vinny then walk up behind him and being stalking. Eventually Vinny gets upset and an altercation ensues. He does seem to try to avoid, since he frequently will look away or use other avoidance behaviors. Since Vinny is my Schutzhund dog, having him be intimidated by Patch doesn't really set well with me, but that's another issue in itself. As far as fights go, tonight was a bit different though. 

They both were laying down. Patch was licking Vinny's ears (typical... they both allow it of each other). All was well. Literally a second later, with no provocation that I could discern Patch attacked and then it was war. I got them separated by dragging Patch by the back legs but he reattacked when I didn't get the bedroom door closed quickly enough to segregate them. I got them separated again and then it was quiet. Bud was involved, but he joined in last and was not involved in the initial ruckus.

Patch is lucky he didn't lose an eye. He has a tooth puncture/gash about a centimeter or less from the side of his eye. I was able to trim the little bit of loose skin, wash it out good, and get some antibiotic ointment on it, but it could easily have been much worse. Vinny had a couple scrapes but nothing major.

Anyway, my question I guess is does this sound like an interpack dominance/hierarchy issue? If so, is the best way to deal with it to reinforce the dominant dog's position (who I am assuming now is Patch. Does that sound right?) in the pack or is there a newer theory on this?

Any thoughts/suggestions/advice will be appreciated. I'd take him back to the rescue group tomorrow if it was just up to me but my husband and daughter would prefer to try to work with him on it. I just don't have the space or the desire to deal with years and years of having to segregate one of them from the rest, especially with his other aggression issues.

Thanks...


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You have got to step in and be the boss or you are going to end up with a total disaster. You have been letting one dog hump the other, take toys away, and have allowed staring and stalking. You can't do this and you found out why today.

First thing, I would take all toys away as you have resource guarding going on. Toys are only allowed on an individual dog basis.

How much exercise are they getting? How much training have they gotten? Are you spending quality time with each dog individually?

Your problems have nothing to do with supporting a top dog and all to do with you taking charge.


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## SandiR2 (Sep 15, 2009)

Elaine said:


> You have got to step in and be the boss or you are going to end up with a total disaster. You have been letting one dog hump the other, take toys away, and have allowed staring and stalking. You can't do this and you found out why today.
> 
> First thing, I would take all toys away as you have resource guarding going on. Toys are only allowed on an individual dog basis.
> 
> ...


I just want to clarify something... not trying to be rude, but nowhere did I say I have allowed those behaviors, just that they occur. Anytime one of them starts up with something unacceptable they are verbally corrected and/or removed from the situation, depending on exactly what's going on.

Patch has exercise tolerance problems stemming from prior heartworm infestation and treatment so he does not get much exercise, although he has never been a high energy guy even when younger. Vinny trains OB for approximately 30 minutes per day and also has time on the treadmill, frisbee playing, and/or a walk. Total time is usually around 70-90 minutes a day for him. Cherry gets frisbee time, short OB sessions, and a walk 4-5 times per week. She's more of a couch potato unless it involves a ball or a frisbee. They all have gone through extensive obedience training over the past year or so. All have either their CGC or BH.


Edit: Sorry, I had a question but forgot. Why do you mention resource guarding? The Malinois nature is basically "mine, mine." Just because Vinny might walk over and take a Kong that Cherry had recently dropped from her mouth or because Cherry wants the ball that Vinny was rolling along the floor doesn't mean they're guarding it. They have almost always eaten their meals out in the open with no issues (crates at times now if large, messy RMBs are served) and also hang out in the same room with bones without any problems. Even 2 or 3 bones for the 4 dogs doesn't create a problem if someone has lost, finished, or hidden one. I don't quite agree with resource guarding, but if you can explain why you think that I am open to another viewpoint on it.


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