# Why is it ok?



## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

No, not trying to bash anyone so won't say who it is. I'm just curious about what others opinion is on this matter. 

Why is it ok for a big/well known and successful breeder to breed a dog with HD??? Why would they do this?

If lets say this dog was AWESOME and producing excellent puppies when it comes to temperament, nerves and drives for work, would it justify it?? Would it be worth risking having puppies out of the litter with HD as well?

FYI - know a young dog out of this dog and sure enough... dog has HD as well.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

My opinion is no, dogs with known HD should not be bred.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

depends on how bad it is. Also did the breeder mate said dog with a dog that is a hip improver. 

Got to look at the whole dog. So many factors to consider. Sometimes you do take the chance. You HAVE to know all the dogs in the pedigree though before making a decision.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The dog may be awesome in every other way, but... you know what? There are a lot of awesome dogs that DON'T have HD. So why breed one that does? That's my take on it. It's not like GSDs are an endangered species.


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## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Why is it ok for a big/well known and successful breeder to breed a dog with HD??? Why would they do this?
> 
> If lets say this dog was AWESOME and producing excellent puppies when it comes to temperament, nerves and drives for work, would it justify it?? Would it be worth risking having puppies out of the litter with HD as well?


Isn't this the reason BYBs are discouraged every chance we get? So they don't, knowingly or otherwise, pass on health problems? I don't see why a big successful breeder should be held to a lower standard than a BYB. 

How much good are temperament & drive if the dog's HD is severe? Are the buyers fully aware of the problem, expense, and future? 

My boy has great temperament, nerves, drive, and no hip problems, but is not a pedigree. Wouldn't it be better to pass on my dog's genes (NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN, JUST HYPOTHETICAL) even with no papers than a dog with great lines but bad genes?


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

FYI - The person who got the pup out of this dog was never told/notified of the HD issue. This person had to do the research and found out after the pup/young dog was x-rayed and found to have HD.

I saw this dog has another litter on the ground that is currently being sold.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I dont think that a dog with even very mild HD should be bred.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> I dont think that a dog with even very mild HD should be bred.


I agree.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I dont think that a dog with even very mild HD should be bred.


 
i'm in total agreement. Even just the slighest HD can be painful for the dog and limit them. And the way genetics works, the HD may be mild in the parent dog but could very well be worse in the next generation and so on. Even with all the rights in temperment and nerve and such, thats not a chance i'd be okay with taking if i can stack the cards in my favor and the favor of the pups.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think the big/well known breeder could only answer the question-but I also think that if they are notifying those who are buying puppies then really the puppy buyer is informed


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

The problem is that they are NOT notifying the buyers.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

But it's up to the buyer to do their research.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Very true.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Learning experience


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Veronica said:


> Isn't this the reason BYBs are discouraged every chance we get? So they don't, knowingly or otherwise, pass on health problems? I don't see why a big successful breeder should be held to a lower standard than a BYB.


No kidding! Buyer's responsibility? Learning experience? While true- if this thread was labeled "BYB- why is this ok?" then this thread would be a huge flame war against the BYB. No, I don't think it's OK for _any_ responsible breeder to breed a dog with a genetic defect involving health issues.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Mirada turned out moderately dysplastic....I had people telling me it would be ok to breed her, as long as I bred to an OFA excellent stud dog with excellent hip production.

I will not say what I thought of that suggestion.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I think the breeder should have disclosed it and I agree that the buyer should have done their homework.

There are some great dogs that while they had MD they produced some of the finest working dogs. Look at the whole dog. Breed with good hip improver over 2 generations and make sure not to line breed on. Could come up with some good dogs as long as you take everything else into consideration. Just a thought.


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## cornishbecky (Oct 10, 2010)

NO it is not ok, absolutely no need to breed a dog with HD no matter how amazing he is.

Yes it is up to the puppy buyer to do research but, come on they shouldnt have to dig that deep to find problems with breeders like that.
Owning a GSD with bad hips is heart breaking, so i know how other owners will feel when they find out their new puppy suffers from it!!!!

NAME and SHAME them!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can't name them here, it is against board rules. I am sure some people probably know who is being talked about, which makes this all kind of cliquey. 

Some people do not put the emphasis on hips. And buyers ought to ask and even ask to see certifications. But the fact is, breeding a dog with hip dysplasia does not guaranty pups with hip dysplasia. So I suppose some breeders feel it is ok. I saw a pedigree today where a good dog was bred to a fair bitch and the result was an excellent set of hips. With excellent hips being so hard to come by, one would expect it more likely to come from good/good or good/excellent.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Breeding anything worse than Fair is not very sensible. Genetics is a toss up anyway, why breed a dog with known HD PLUS known to produce HD also.
Very sad that a well known breeder is doing this, I imagine this same well known breeder bashes BYB's.
This is a perfect example of why I cringe when I read over and over on the forum: Only buy from a well known breeder, they are only breeding healthy genetically tested dogs, yadda yadda
Except then you read and hear about the BIGGIES and there are alot of them in all breeds, breeding HD dogs over and over and not being bothered by it. I don't care if the dog is a multi best in show dog or a multi titled performance dog, when anyone breeds dogs with HD and people keep buying from them, they aren't stopping their breeding of HD dogs and don't seem to care, why bother to OFA then? Seems like some folks dont practice what they preach, are quick to trash BYB,s who don't OFA and they themselves breed and produce litter after litter of HD puppies.These same breeders are put on a pedestal by some and are no better than folks who don't OFA at all.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

selzer said:


> Some people do not put the emphasis on hips. And buyers ought to ask and even ask to see certifications. But the fact is, breeding a dog with hip dysplasia does not guaranty pups with hip dysplasia. So I suppose some breeders feel it is ok. I saw a pedigree today where a good dog was bred to a fair bitch and the result was an excellent set of hips. With excellent hips being so hard to come by, one would expect it more likely to come from good/good or good/excellent.


Well said.

Here is a example for those that feel borderline/Mild HD dogs shouldn't be bred.

VD Klara z Pohranicni Straze
 *ZVV1, SP/PS, ZVV2, SCHH3* * Kkl 2* 

This female was known to throw bad hips BUT was used b/c she was one of the best producing dogs there were. Brought traits that you wanted in progeny and check her progeny and it shows a who's who of czech dogs. 
You have to know who to breed the dog to and look at the total dog. Only breed hips and you will have a deficiency somewhere else in the dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I wish I was part of the clique. ALL the breeders I know are the ones most mentioned on this forum- maybe 4 or 5 breeders. I don't know of any "big" breeders for GSDs. Sometimes I feel like I know a decent amount about my breed of choice, but most the time I realize there is a ton I don't know.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Could someone PM me the breeder?

Does the breeder list OFA results? Wouldn't a buyer notice the lack of OFA or a bad OFA score? Or is this breeder hiding it and refusing to disclose the information?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I think the big/well known breeder could only answer the question-but I also think that if they are notifying those who are buying puppies then really the puppy buyer is informed


I don't know who the breeder is, or the background/details of the breeding, so I'm not referring to that particular situation, but IF there's a considerable risk of producing compromised pups that will suffer, the issue doesn't go away just b/c the buyers were informed. It is WRONG, just WRONG, to knowingly produce dogs with a high potential for limited, crippled lives of pain & distress.

Dogs are cognizant, sensitive creatures who deserve the best possible start in life. Beyond the concerns of potential buyers, breeders s/b concerned with the health, well being & longevity of the dogs they produce. The dogs' comfort & quality of life is as important as the buyers' sensibilities.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sometimes reading this board is so disheartening.....Agh....Question....If a dog with normal hips breeds a litter and produces HD....should that dog be disqualified from ever breeding again?????Remember what some of you experts just wrote!!
Here's another one, whom do I breed to???...the dog with OFA Excellent hips that had litter brothers or sisters with severe/moderate HD, or the OFA mild dog that had all the sisters or brothers go OFA Good or Excellent. And in the last scenario, which dog will probably produce better hipswise....the mild or the excellent. It is so easy to see where this breed went wrong....Agh!!!
And don't say you wouldn't breed to either dog, because most of you don't have the knowledge to know that much info about every dog in the litter....so now what?????


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Cliffson1.

I've don't know a thing about genetics. I do understand there importance though.

I'm going out on a limb and say that if I were to breed from those scenarios, it would be from the mild OFA with the better brothers and sisters. Statistically they had a better group overall. To me the odds would be with them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cliff, excellent point!!

The reason the Germans still allow the breeding of a3 dogs and, until recently, allowed the breeding of a4 dogs was because they know that you can not "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Some of the best working producers were not always the best joint producers. Breeding entails balance. If you concentrate only on one thing you lose many others in the process.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Well Andy, situations like that are very much out there....also based on many of the comments on this board they would breed the OFA excellent even though the excellent has a much better chance of passing HD in that scenario. Hips are so much more complicated than just breeding two normal dogs!!!!That's why all the dogs in Europe that are KK1(korklasse one....recommended for breeding) are still producing an unacceptable number of dysplastic dogs. Where is this dysplasia coming from if normal to normal is the only way to go. Crippling dysplasia is less than 5% of the breed. When I hear people say they won't breed any dogs unless they are OFA Good or A normal, BECAUSE they don't want to produce severe crippling puppies, I wonder where in the he$$ do they get this information. Normal dogs bred to normal dogs will produce crippling in a minute especially if the line is known for bad hips....so now you tell me everyone knows the lines well to avoid this....NOT!! Its so cliche to say only breed normal to normal.....there is so much more than that and so many that don't realize that!
The Germans instituted the ZW system because they realized that normal to normal wasn't cutting it. Now if you don't understand the ZW system, you definitely don't understand what I am talking about.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Also, I would ask you that have imported dogs or first generation dogs in this country to go back 4 generations in your dogs pedigree. If you see dogs in there with NZ hips, I ask why would you buy a dog or puppy that has NZ hips that close up in the pedigree. Especially those of you that would NEVER breed a dog with less than normal hips....I would love to hear the rationalization for acquiring a dog with this DEFORMITY in the bloodline. (If you don't know what NZ is look it up and see if it agrres with your breeding philosphy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My imported female does not have any NZ in four generations, but I know her father has produced some, but then he produced scads of dogs, and he is only half the equation.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Cliff.

I don't understand you much of the time but I like you to keep posting because I learn a bunch. Sometimes requires me to use google a lot.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Good points Cliff. 

Got a question! Since a few people seem to know who the breeder is has anyone asked the breeder why they are breeding that particular dog?

Is the breeder hiding or misrepresenting hip scores?

Just curious, and I feel out of the loop, I don't have a clue who the breeder is. LOL


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hard thing today which is different from days past is that nowadays, people get dogs and don't keep breeders appraised of how the pups are hips, temperament, etc. It is hard to tell what you breed when people don't either work the dogs or whatever else. Also environment plays a HUGE factor in development as well.

So when you look at hips only you miss out on everything else that surrounds it.

As I stated before, Klara z Pohranicni Straze (borderline/mild HD)
Dogs that are around from her...
Omar z Blatenskeho Zamku
Gero z Blatenskeho Zamku
Sam z Lipin
Xac z Pohranicni Straze
Reno Jipo Me

and others...

Also another point is that hips do change. Hips that can be good at 1 go go bad as the years add on.

I do think what happens is that many people get caught up in the emotions of a dog having HD that they don't want any other dog having it. Certainly understandable. Dogs are living creatures and emotions run high but I think breeders have to take the emotion out and look at the dogs and if a breeding (whit the right mate) can produce some great dogs despite a few that may not make it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Sometimes reading this board is so disheartening.....Agh....Question....If a dog with normal hips breeds a litter and produces HD....should that dog be disqualified from ever breeding again?????Remember what some of you experts just wrote!!
> Here's another one, whom do I breed to???...the dog with OFA Excellent hips that had litter brothers or sisters with severe/moderate HD, or the OFA mild dog that had all the sisters or brothers go OFA Good or Excellent. And in the last scenario, which dog will probably produce better hipswise....the mild or the excellent. It is so easy to see where this breed went wrong....Agh!!!
> And don't say you wouldn't breed to either dog, because most of you don't have the knowledge to know that much info about every dog in the litter....so now what?????


Basically what I was writing/thinking. It's all about the BIG picture. Genetics is a funny thing. Was stud dog used one dog in a 6 generation pedigree will less than excellent hips? Or was he 1 of 4 in his litter with mild parents too?

I don't think anyone knows who the breeder is  Maybe they do, but I don't get that impression (but I guess any excuse to bring up a "clique" is a good one, right?). But maybe it's being gossiped about on PBD right now.

I think the difference here (possibly--since I don't know the breeder or the dog I guess I really can't say)...assuming this really IS a reputable breeder vs. a "BYB" type is because if it's a reputable breeder they can take that issue into consideration and choose a mate based on a lot of carefully thought out characteristics...where is a BYB throwing together something randomly just because they were both intact and of the same breed is another thing.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I will also say that I think my opinion on HD being SUCH a big deal (in and on itself...again I want the whole pictures) has changed some over the years (LBD's in general). After fostering several dogs with seemingly stellar hips but weak nerves and/or fear aggression and owning a dog with mild to moderate HD in one hip but very good nerves....

I'll take putting a few supplements in the food for the rest of their life over a fear biter any day.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look I don't know who this breeder is, but I will say there could be many good reasons why they bred the dog if it was mild. Could be from a family of strong hip producers, could be a dog that is linebred 2-3 or 3-4 on a hip improver like Aly Vordinsteinwald. Could be that the dog they are breeding to is a known hip producer and the combination of the two brings a lot to the table, could be that this breeding has been done before with excellent hip results. Folks, all of the above reasons would be adequate for a breeder of working dogs to breed this dog. The german shepherd should be bred for functional hips because the dog was created to function, not to be bragged about on what the hip status my dog has. Before the 1960's most dogs in the USA were not even x-rayed for hips and for the period of 1920's to 1960's the average American german shepherd performed well and they didn't lose their way, because they couldn't x-ray hips!!!...Fact!!!! Now we have made "clinical" hips more important than the dog, in this country and you can barely find an American dog that can do seeing eye work. How did we go backwards with x-rays and only normal hips for breeding from knowledgable reputable breeders?????


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Probably because the people buying a companion animal don't want a dog with HD. I agree with you, to a point....my girl is dysplastic, but functional...completely asymptomatic. But how is it fair or right for me to breed her, and potentially create not only another animal with HD, but one with HD WORSE than hers that affects the dog. How is that fair to the dog, or the family that buys it? What recompense do they get?

I know we are supposed to maintain the breed and whatnot, but how ethical is it to sell somebody an animal knowing that at least one parent had bad hips (regardless of whether they were bred to an animal that would "improve hips")? They're crap out of luck because somebody did the health testing, but didn't care enough to heed it? They are not supposed to shell out thousands of dollars for hip replacements for the dog, or be forced to make the decision of putting their otherwise healthy youngster down?

Sorry....I will admit that I just cannot bite on that one. I understand the argument...I just don't agree with it.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff...you know that I agree with your philosophy on this matter....even though it may go against the grain for some.
I have bred to and from NZ & OFA Fair hips...and will continue to do so. I look at the "whole picture" when considering breeding...hips are only a piece of the puzzle.

*I have not bred to a non passing dog though.....have never been faced with that particular decision.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I know of females with FN hips who, bred to 2 different males, produced terrible hips (2) with the first, and OFA Excellent with the second....I have seen dogs with "C" hips at a year that go OFA Good at 5! Many dogs improve from 1 to 2, common to see prelims improve a step. 

As Cliff said, you have to look as far into the family as you can...here in the US, hip ratings seem to be a sticking point with buyers, wanting assurances and guarantees that an 8 week old pup is clear of HD....as many say, FUNCTION is what matters, many dogs who are borderline would go clear with a different evaluator - have known it to happen - I know of many dogs who have been trained and titled that are dysplastic on evaluations, but not symptomatic. 

I am very aware of hips because of the buyer perception and fear of having an HD dog, so and take the male's pedigree/family into serious consideration when choosing a male to sire a litter. Also, I have had people be puzzled at my using an OFA Fair male (2 generations of OFA Good from that male now)....also you have to try to balance a family who is less strong with a family that is an improver...Natan Pecheos Haus was not considered a good hip producer, and even though his son Ufo has a1 hips, I always look to strenghten the pedigree when using an Ufo progeny. Overall, that has been sucessful, with several OFA Excellents, as well as Goods and 1 Fair, and 1 mild....the mild is a titled dog who shows no symptoms, and if redone with better x-rays may well pass (as per 2 BC vet radiologists).

I know of one WGSL dog who was on OFA as a failure, was redone via SV, passed and was bred as well, .

I think that people look too much at the first couple generations and dismiss those further back - I really believe that back massing on a dog like Jeck Noricum (WGSL) results in a static population for hips....unfortunately, almost every showline dog I look at has line breeding/back massing on Jeck...Bad hips are structure first - and when ear set or pigment or tightness of feet are bred for and brought forward, peopel do not think about that hip structure that went NZ or mild that might be in a pedigree 5 or 6 times....if his tail set or pastern comes through via line breeding, why don't people realize his hip structure will pass on as well.

Lee


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I say absolutely not. I wouldn't breed a dog with known ALLERGIES! If it doesn't get better than a fair OFA it won't be bred by me or supported. Period. 

They're supposed to be breeding to further the breed, not their program. I don't care HOW much time and money you've put into your lines or program, the dog shouldn't be bred! Sell it if you absolutely have to have that space in your program and import another or buy another and breed some healthy dogs. /rant.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> Well said.
> 
> Here is a example for those that feel borderline/Mild HD dogs shouldn't be bred.
> 
> ...


My pup is a decedent of Klara on her dam's side. Hips were a concern for me when I started researching Zefra's mother but, when looking at what was brought forth in terms of nerve, temperament, working ability, then assessing what Zefra's sire brought to the table.. well, it was worth the "risk" because I feel that the top half balances out.

My pups pedigree: Wild Winds Zefra - German Shepherd Dog

I am really torn on this subject because to me, personally, I believe that temperament/nerve and health are on equal grounds.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Freestep said:


> The dog may be awesome in every other way, but... you know what? There are a lot of awesome dogs that DON'T have HD. So why breed one that does? That's my take on it. It's not like GSDs are an endangered species.


I agree. I think its wrong to not tell the puppy buyer of the dogs hip history.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

As long as the breeder discloses the information and has good reasons as Cliff describes for the breeding I see no harm. 

If you don't want to risk it then don't. Now if the breeder is not letting buyers know about the "risk" then I have a problem.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Some breeders are more caught up with their philosophy than the facts. Fortunately, the better and long time breeders on this forum understand what I am saying...many of the people who are making absolute statements have bred what????? Opinions vs educated opinions....it always comes down to that. I'll say one more time....acheiving good hips is much more than breeding normal to normal, and breeding good German Shepherds requires you to breed with less than normal sometimes to acheive balance and function. Don't expect everyone to agree, just like I didn't expect the absolute people to answer my questions...lol, because to answer my questions would require them to refute their own premise and we can't have that...LOL. 
In closing, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, the people who don't have an opinion will be able to sort out what makes the most sense and is consistent with what really takes place. Many of these people have been hurt by breeders leading them on to beleive that because their two dogs were both normal their pups hips wouldn't be a problem. Baloney!!! 
The people who think you can breed successful hips by only using perfect hipped dogs will continue to believe this and have all these excuses focused on the owners when the pup turns up dysplastic. Such garbage!! 
And then their are those that realize that this is an inherent part of the breed that can be best combatted by extensive knowledge of parents, siblings, lines, combinations, clicks, genepool, and many other factors. 
I just get irate sometime when I see people blasting people's breeding practice and the lack of knowledge they possess about the situation they are blasting, exposes their lack of knowledge about breeding. 
I'll leave this hip topic now to the experts....its all good!!!lol


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How many times have people gotten dogs from both normal parents and the resulting pup becomes dysplastic. 
Sooooooo...I think it is wrong to lead people to think that because the two dogs bred are "normal" the hips will be alright. Oh but that's only illusional HD because the parents were normal....RIGHT!
Any dog I have bred or sold I have always informed the buyer that hips are a crapshoot no matter what the rating of the parents are....real truth so people are not let down or have false expectations. I think that is much more ethical than the people who only breed for hips and aren't producing any better hips than I am....JMO.
ps None of the absolutist want to explain to me why the German created the ZW system??????


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> How many times have people gotten dogs from both normal parents and the resulting pup becomes dysplastic?


:greet: Oooh! ME! ME! Pick me Cliff!! :headbang:



cliffson1 said:


> The people who think you can breed successful hips by only using perfect hipped dogs will continue to believe this and have all these excuses focused on the owners when the pup turns up dysplastic. Such garbage!!


 <sings> Strumming my pain with his fingers... Singing my life with his words...:teary::teary:


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Amen.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Apologies for the dry language in advance - it's been a long time since I dusted off my genetics education 

Have there been any studies done to actually determine what a functional hip looks like, or are the ratings pretty much arbitrary? I mean, if ratings can't be directly correlated to breeding results, and it sounds as if they can't, how can anyone determine if OFA Excellent is more desirable in a breeding program than OFA Good or Fair? With polygenic inheritance (assumption here), looking at the phenotype is often not useful and can be detrimental in determining which animals to breed to get the characteristics you want. Is anyone keeping extensive track of progeny statistics, or is that not really possible?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The SV does.....that's what the ZW is for, and why it constantly changes as progeny is listed...generation after generation.
*It's a tool for breeders, to be used as a guideline in making breeding decisions.*


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am not sure we can eliminate hip dysplasia in this breed and still retain the entirety of desirable traits that has made these dogs the incredible animals they are. It is not so simple. Sure wish it was.

I have seen people so upset that they get a dog with dysplasia and seem to think there was something wrong with the breeding. Again, it is not all that simple. Hey, I had a bitch with hip dysplasia, very significant by xray, in fact. She was active till she died! People told me I will never have another like her in my lifetime. What if some of what made her so special came along withnthose hips? I would do it again!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I had a bitch with bad hips. Pretty darn significant by xray. I have had many people tell me I will never be so lucky to have another such dog in my lifetime. She was active to the end and hip dysplasia didn't kill her. What if those things that made her so special were associated with her hip genetics? Heck yes, I would do that dysplastic dog again.

It is sad that many people get mislead sbout the hip thing. They get a dysplastic dog and think something was wrong with the breeding. Not necessarily so. As said before, it is just not that simple. If one were a purist they could just end up sacrificing traits that make the breed what it is....but, they could admire those hip films!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I have a question for the knowledgeable people as far as breeding and genetics and HD. Can over breeding contibute to a pup being displastic? Say a breeder has a top dog bred with various other top dogs that has for the most part, produced physically sound pups. Do breeders run a risk if they continue to breed a dam past her 3rd or 4th litter? What about the 5th or 6th litter? How many times is acceptable before a dam should be retired? And can multiple breedings raise the chance for issues like HD, among other things, to crop up in the litters?


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Very good points Cliff.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Part of my philosophy on hips was developed in the military in the early seventies where we had 250 dogs at one place. The military accepted dogs that had grade one HD and better. There were so many dogs there that were slightly normal or grade one HD that were still performing at 7,8,9, years of age. Heck, Buddy had grade one hips, was 8 years old and they STILL had to have cover over kennel because he could jump to top of six feet kennel. These dogs weren't in pain or distress,(at least there wagging tails when working didn't tell me that). A lot of the absolutist attitudes on hips is based on minimal exposure to real numbers of dogs, extreme situations of dysplasia, and extreme emotional pain because their darling that they adored became dysplastic. 
This is understandable, BUT in no way should be the basis for making breeding decesions, or giving helpful advice on hip issues to others. More often than not advice formulated out of emotional pain is not balanced but too heavily influenced by the pain to see the total picture.
Actually, large responsible commercial breeders(like Eurosport, Jinopo, etc) are much more knowledgable about hips than most small hobby breeders) Remember I said responsible, in both instances, so you know I mean educated breeder.
These breeders see far more examples of the production, intermingling of same parents, different parents, they see the production of two or three sisters bred with different dogs and sometimes the same dogs. They see when certain clicks of two dogs don't work and they see when certain clicks of dogs do click...regardless of clinical hip designation;(assuming they are using dogs that run the spectrum of acceptable hip rating),these breeders get to see which lines tend to throw certain traits to include hips when matched with different/same lines. These kennels tend to have 2,3,4 generations of dogs they have bred along with siblings to get a much more complete picture. Lastly, these people take the EMOTION out of the breeding equation and breed more based on experience and not limited experience.
Let me MAKE this clear, I am not saying that there are not very excellent studious hobby breeders that are very knowledgable about hips....there are!!!!(I hope I fall in that catergory)lol; what I am saying is that hips is part of the total german shepherd, to have a hip hpilosophy about the hips of a working dog you have to place hips in place according to SUPPLEMENTING your goal of breeding for a total dog that works. That's why "PET" breeding is so disastrous for this breed,(and by Pet I don't mean BYB, I mean people who breed Goldens in Shepherd clothing), because these people often make issues; like hips waggin the dog, instead of the dog runnin on the hips. They often don't have a clue how those hips will hold up when places under stress of working because the dogs are so soft that any little pain will cause the dog to shut down or become not effective....Phooey!!! They often have philosophies and opinions not derived from extensive experience in breeding, or breeding working animals to REALLY see how hips fit into the equation, but rather they promote hips often to the decimation of other more important elements(like temperament and structure). 
And then they get on internet forums and preach from the pulpit....where is that congregation going to end up???


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Tina,
The probability of HD in any litter is no different from litter 1 to litter 10...(when considering same parentage).
_What I'm trying to say.....*_considering dog A bred to dog B....IF there were to be progeny.....the amount of times the two dogs are bred together...has no actual impact on which litter might have HD issues.*...the chances are the same.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> Tina,
> The probability of HD in any litter is no different from litter 1 to litter 10...(when considering same parentage).
> _What I'm trying to say.....*_considering dog A bred to dog B....IF there were to be progeny.....the amount of times the two dogs are bred together...has no actual impact on which litter might have HD issues.*...the chances are the same.


Ahhh...I see... was just curious, thanks. So why is it said that it's not good to breed a female too many times? Is this because of the effect it can have on the dam herself?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> But it's up to the buyer to do their research.


No! No way! As a buyer, my research is going to be on finding a reputable breeder. How the heck could they become reputable if they are allowed to bred dogs with HD? You can not have your cake and eat it too! 

If this is/was a common practice, then I would just take my chances and buy a dog from a byb that charges 1/4 the price as the well known reputable breeder. There would be absolutely no reason for me to go with a reputable breeder. 

I would feel cheated. Duped. It would only prove to me that the breeder was in it for the money and not for the love of the breed. 

As a buyer - even the thought upsets me greatly.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I rather take a dog bred from a bitch who had HD but produced strong temperament, rock solid nerves and hard working dog than take a dog from only passing hips but their nerves are shot to **** or has weak temperament.

You might as well get one of these......






Check out the 4:50 mark, and the 6:50 mark and beyond.....


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Lilie said:


> No! No way! As a buyer, my research is going to be on finding a reputable breeder. How the heck could they become reputable if they are allowed to bred dogs with HD? You can not have your cake and eat it too!
> 
> If this is/was a common practice, then I would just take my chances and buy a dog from a byb that charges 1/4 the price as the well known reputable breeder. There would be absolutely no reason for me to go with a reputable breeder.
> 
> ...


As a buyer I think it is your responsibility to ask questions and do in depth research. No different than buying anything else.

So is a breeder "not reputable" if he/she breeds HD dogs? Despite the fact they have decades of more experience as a breeder over how many years you have as a casual owner?

I hate the term "reputable" b/c I see it being used all the time with 50 different people having 50 different definitions.

I think if you are not breeding for the OVERALL quality of the dog, and if you breed for just hips, then you are no different from anyone that breeds for other single traits. That to me is not right and does more harm than good.

I do understand your point and I see it is emotionally driven, which makes it hard.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Tina,
It's not the "amount" of times that a female is bred....as it is the health of the female in terms of each breeding.
A female can have difficulty with 1 breeding/whelp.....or have none with several breeding's/whelps.
A healthy female (even in her senior years) can whelp a healthy, strong litter and be perfectly fine before, during and after.......and then you have females (younger) that have a hard recovery time....
IMO..(as a breeder/owner)...it's all about *my* female....when considering each breeding.....her health is considered.
I am not against multiple breeding's or breeding older females.....it all depends on each female and the circumstances involved.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> My pup is a decedent of Klara on her dam's side. Hips were a concern for me when I started researching Zefra's mother but, when looking at what was brought forth in terms of nerve, temperament, working ability, then assessing what Zefra's sire brought to the table.. well, it was worth the "risk" because I feel that the top half balances out.
> 
> My pups pedigree: Wild Winds Zefra - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> I am really torn on this subject because to me, personally, I believe that temperament/nerve and health are on equal grounds.


I am not familiar with the fathers side of the PED but I do like the dam's. I wouldn't be concerned with Klara in the PED as she is way back in it. (2x in the 6th generation) With the dogs she produced, you WANT her in the pedigree.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

But why does it come back to "only breeding for hips"? How is a person "only breeding for hips" if they're considering the overall health of the breed? And nobody has answered my question about what is to be done for the person that ends up with the severely dysplastic dog from such a breeding. Or the dog itself.

I do not expect HD to be eradicated, and yes, normal x normal does produce HD, but I don't understand how that justifies breeding a dysplastic animal. Mirada's hips are functional....doesn't make me any less devastated that she's dysplastic. I cannot do most of the things to the level I had hoped now, because of it.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

stealthq said:


> Have there been any studies done to actually determine what a functional hip looks like, or are the ratings pretty much arbitrary? I mean, if ratings can't be directly correlated to breeding results, and it sounds as if they can't, how can anyone determine if OFA Excellent is more desirable in a breeding program than OFA Good or Fair? With polygenic inheritance (assumption here), looking at the phenotype is often not useful and can be detrimental in determining which animals to breed to get the characteristics you want. Is anyone keeping extensive track of progeny statistics, or is that not really possible?


There is a chart in the OFA breeder's guide which may address your question. 

Here is a link:
http://www.offa.org/pdf/monograph2006web.pdf (See page 10)

OFA examined the hip ratings of 444,451 progeny where the dam and sire's hip ratings were known. Just as a quick example, Excellent x Excellent produced an average of 4% dysplastic hips. Fair x Fair yielded an average of 20% dysplastic hips. 

Some interesting info in there . . .


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> How many times have people gotten dogs from both normal parents and the resulting pup becomes dysplastic.


It's happened to me twice.

HD is complicated, and the jury's still out as to whether it's 100% genetic. That said, dogs with bad hips *tend* to beget dogs with bad hips, and dogs with good hips *tend* to beget dogs with good hips. But as everyone knows, a pedigree full of good hips is no guarantee that dysplastic pups will not be produced. It's frustrating, to say the least. But we need to do all we can to tip the scales in favor of good hips, and that means breeding away from bad hips. IMO.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

WOW Ace, that video yo posted is pathetic!! How sad, it actually makes me feel sad for those dogs, they are all clearly scared to engage when the stick is present.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> As a buyer I think it is your responsibility to ask questions and do in depth research. No different than buying anything else.


And there is the problem. Let's petend I am a first time GSD buyer. I have no knowledge of the breed, never owned one before. I came across this forum researching the breed and I could tell by your posts that you have a great deal of knowledge regarding the GSD. You have worked your fingers to the bone to create the standards that you breed by. I come to respect you and trust you. (I don't know you Ace952, so please don't think I'm speaking about you personally). 

I contact you and tell you I want a GSD for agility, or some working sport. You read me the entire book regarding GSD training, temperment etc. etc. You make me fill out applications and contracts. You decide if I am worthy of purchasing one of your pups. I pay you a good sum of money for the pup. I feel I've done my research. I didn't go to a byb. I didn't take this purchase lightly. I had faith as a new comer to the breed that I did everything I could to make the right purchase. 

By age two the pup has HD. I can't work her. I start putting her on supliments to try and ease the development. By 7 she is in pain and I've got a thread on here asking what should I do? 

I've been scammed. I've been cheated. And in the mean time you (the breeder) are on here throwing stones at byb and screaming the loudest about ruining the GSD and what it was meant to be.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Carolina....what is even sadder is that there is no possible way that the handlers, trainers or owners of these dogs....are oblivious to the fact that these dogs are incapable of performing well. They must know that their dogs "lack" the ability for the venue.
Why even attempt it???


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

robinhuerta said:


> Carolina....what is even sadder is that there is no possible way that the handlers, trainers or owners of these dogs....are oblivious to the fact that these dogs are incapable of performing well. They must know that their dogs "lack" the ability for the venue.
> Why even attempt it???


I know!!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Lilie...how would you be scammed??...or cheated?
A breeder cannot honestly *guarantee* any puppy from developing HD.....it is genetically within this breed like many others.
As breeders...we must "consider" ALL genetic aspects of this breed....not just hips.
This is why breeders offer a "warranty"...in regards to congenital defects or problems....it's really all that anyone can ask for or truly expect. IMO.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Lilie said:


> And there is the problem. Let's petend I am a first time GSD buyer. I have no knowledge of the breed, never owned one before. I came across this forum researching the breed and I could tell by your posts that you have a great deal of knowledge regarding the GSD. You have worked your fingers to the bone to create the standards that you breed by. I come to respect you and trust you. (I don't know you Ace952, so please don't think I'm speaking about you personally).
> 
> I contact you and tell you I want a GSD for agility, or some working sport. You read me the entire book regarding GSD training, temperment etc. etc. You make me fill out applications and contracts. You decide if I am worthy of purchasing one of your pups. I pay you a good sum of money for the pup. I feel I've done my research. I didn't go to a byb. I didn't take this purchase lightly. I had faith as a new comer to the breed that I did everything I could to make the right purchase.
> 
> ...


I was a first time GSD buyer exactly this same time 1 year ago last month. I had no clue as I almost bought 2 showlines thinking that they would be perfect for protection/sport *gasp*. 

Only thing I did was just talk to breeders and read up on messageboards. I too was concerned about hips/elbows. Then I just read and talked to breeders when they discussed the whole dog. And I then realized its all a crapshoot and I trusted the breeder. I know EXACTLY what you are saying and all this crap to learn can be VERY overwhelming.

I will say that your scenario does happen, without a doubt and it is sad and I totally feel for that customer. Many breeders offer warranty on dogs that have crippling HD. In the end you hope the breeder discloses and you hope you did your fair amount of research. And when I mean fair amount, I mean asking 5-10 different people about a pedigree and talking to numerous breeders. It takes a lot of time. 

If people have so much concern over it I then say to go with a older dog and not a puppy. Again hips can change over time. Also what 1 person may see as mild HD another may see as fair. Everything is so subjective.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> A breeder cannot honestly *guarantee* any puppy from developing HD


This is very true, and I agree with this. The majority of contracts I've seen state what will be done for you if your dog does have HD. The contract does not guarantee against the dog getting HD.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Robin & GSDBest - That is the craziest part about it......these are Sch dog!! How did they pass???? The only way is by flat out paying someone off at a "moonlight" trial.

They just flat out don't care and pay for the titles. They then breed the dogs and sell them in Germany and for more money over here in the U.S. for big bucks. They tell people they have excellent temperaments, great hips and scored great during competition. People have no idea they will produce nerve bag puppies. They will tell anyone that if someone breeds a dog with bad hips they aren't "reputable" but they themselves produce the crap you saw in the video.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Pretty sad isn't it??


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

If I am paying $ 1200 and up for a puppy I want a healthy one with slim chances of any genetic disease. So it is not alright in my eyes. Alot of people count on a breeder too and don't do the research.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Again, I think people are forgetting here about genetics as a whole.

What do you think is more unethical/more wrong? A breeder with a dog with EXCELLENT hips, but who is strongly linebred on a dog who is KNOWN to produce bad hips, and who has 4 littermates who also have HD....and then breeding it maybe to a dog who isn't known as throwing bad hips, but certainly isn't known to improve them.

Or a breeder taking a dog who has mild HD, who has strong hip producers in the line, is from a repeat litter in which no other siblings have anything less than "good" hips, and then breeding that dog to a known hip improver?

The problem with many of these posts is that people are seeing BLACK and they are seeing WHITE. They are not seeing the shades of grey. ONE dog in ONE place in a pedigree only means ONE piece of the puzzle. Genetics are STILL there and other relatives can still play a very strong influence on the dogs that are produced.

Now, once again...I don't think that anyone can say that THIS breeder did something unethical by breeding this dog or not since we don't know who they are or why they did the breeding. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. But again...the WHOLE picture. I'm not even talking about temperment at this point...just hips. ONE DOG does not make something foulproof. Yes, daddy has a lot of influence. But so does grammy and grandpa and aunties and uncles.................and of course mommy too.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yikes, Cliff! That was a good synopsis!
My dysplastic, clearly dysplastic, girl did not show signs until older and was a very active dog. Some of ths probably because she did not retire to the sofa upon diagnosis or go back to the breeder. If you were to ask my vet about her he would remark about her stamina, physical hardness and HEART! Perfect hips and a dog that was less in "who" she was? No thanks. In my experience hips don't make the dog. 

Same vet had a working BC in his family. The dog was superior in working abilities and worked into very old age. An injury resulted in an xray where hips were seen. Terrible hips, who knew? Back when we didn't check for hips so in depth... Individuals of superior ability and poor hips may have contributed their genes to the pool. 

This is no reason to be cavalier in breeding, no one with a level of mastery would do that either.

I never expect one breeder to eliminate the entire genetic history that comes with this breed. If you look at the genetic load and issues, you will realize there are things going to crop up in GSD breeding. I know I take my chances every time I get one. It comes with the genes that make them German Shepherd Dogs.Someone desiring a dog with slim chance of genetic issues could acquire a Carolina Dog.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Lilie...how would you be scammed??...or cheated?
> A breeder cannot honestly *guarantee* any puppy from developing HD.....it is genetically within this breed like many others.
> As breeders...we must "consider" ALL genetic aspects of this breed....not just hips.
> This is why breeders offer a "warranty"...in regards to congenital defects or problems....it's really all that anyone can ask for or truly expect. IMO.


I meant if a breeder were to breed two dogs that they were certain would create pups predisposed to have HD, but were going to be nice eye candy, or great dispositions etc. and totally ignored the fact that the bitch (or sire) threw pups who had HD. 

Replace HD with any other genetic defect that would be life threatening, or change the quality of life for the dog. I would feel the same way. 

I realize there is no exact science - and the best you can do is only utilize breeders who have done all of the hard work to put the odds in your favor. But to find out that some breeders who represent themselves as such, and in fact aren't is totally amazing to me.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> And nobody has answered my question about what is to be done for the person that ends up with the severely dysplastic dog from such a breeding. Or the dog itself.


Same thing that is done for a person that ends up with a dog with HD from two "excellent" parents. Whatever is stipulated in the contract.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Very true Justine, this is the very reason why my hubby likes the German imports, because he can research the lines way back, look up littermates, grandparents, etc. etc.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I just thought that it would be interesting to note that there are FIVE criteria the OFA suggests that breeders take into account when choosing a pairing.......

The following breeding selection criteria have been demonstrated
to more rapidly and effectively reduce the frequency of
undesirable traits: 

*1. Breed only normal dogs to normal dogs*​​​​—using hip dysplasia
as an example, Table 1 illustrates the outcome of matings based on
information extracted from the OFA database. A total of 444,451
progeny were identifi ed where both parents had hip conformation
ratings. The percentage of dysplastic progeny increased as the sire’s
and dam’s phenotypic hip ratings decreased from excellent through
dysplastic. Reed (2000) reported equal genetic contribution on
progeny hip scores from the sire and dam.​
_Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, Inc.​​​​11​
_*2. Breed normal dogs that come from normal parents and*
*grandparents*​​​​—this employs the traditional horizontal pedigree
with emphasis on the most immediate three generations (50% genetic
contribution from each parent, 25% from each grandparent
and 12.5% from each great grandparent)
​
*3. Breed normal dogs that have more than 75% normal siblings*​​​​—
this information is usually not available since most animals
in a litter become pets and are not screened for undesirable traits.
Breeders can add incentives to purchase contracts in an attempt
to gather this information, such as offering reimbursement for a
preliminary hip radiograph taken when the pet dog is spayed/neutered.
​
*4. Select a dog that has a record of producing a higher than*
*breed average percentage of normal progeny*​​​​*—*if known, the
comparison of production performance between individuals is an
important criterion. For example, a stud dog with a track record
of producing 90% normal progeny is far superior to another dog
producing only 50% normal progeny.
​
*5. Choose replacement animals that exceed the breed average*​​​​*—*
exert constant, consistent pressure to ensure overall breed​
improvement.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I choose to support breeders that consider "all" aspects of this breed when considering a litter. 
I'll purchase and invest in the breeder that requires more from breeding, (than just hips)... and consistently produces good dogs. 
*It's kinda like all or nothing for me...but maybe that's just me.?*

I think the topic has been taken in an "all one way or nothing" direction....
Breeding is RESEARCH.....one must take ALL data available and put it to use.
ALL aspects of health...ALL aspects of temperament...ALL aspects of function.....and *only then*, conclude what is best and most genetically sound.
JMO...maybe I should refrain from posting to this topic any further....I can't see in only black and white...
(good reference..that black & white comment!)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I will say to people who are nervous about this aspect of the breed/breeding. A good breeder ALWAYS is transparent with their breeding dogs certs and scores for HD and ED (even if they don't TELL you, you should easily be able to look it up). And some dogs you can look up the dogs ZW score...with 100 being "average" and the lower the score the better (ie Medo's dad is way above average with a ZW score of 73). The ZW system takes into account all the dogs in the pedigree and their hip scores to give an idea of how good the hip ratings are throughout the ENTIRE pedigree...not just ONE dog. 

If you AS A BUYER are unsure of the scores or don't feel right, then move onto another. If a breeder has carefully thought out a breeding in which one dog has hips out of your comfort zone...go on to another. There really isn't a right or wrong here if there are genuinely well thought out decisions based on a lot of experience and knowledge. But not everyone DOES (heck, most breeders don't understand it all!) this. If you have a question as to if you think that THIS particular breeder's decision is legitimate or not....then go to the next.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Excellent, excellent points Cliff, Justine, Robin, Ace.. and some others I probably forgot.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> The SV does.....that's what the ZW is for, and why it constantly changes as progeny is listed...generation after generation.
> *It's a tool for breeders, to be used as a guideline in making breeding decisions.*



Which in itself is absolutely garbage because you can't trust the SV to get objective results. 

Mixed up x-rays, popularity it all plays a major role. There are dogs out there with excellent hips that got NZ from the SV. Owners have taken the SV to court and so far, only one has won against the SV. 

Once the SV ruled, it's out and you have no chance in changing the results, doesn't matter if your dog has excellent hips and got labeled with NZ or the other way around... NZ hips that got labeled A1. 

You can't always trust the SV, there is way too much corruption going on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

At some point you have to expect there to be mistakes and problems in any system, people claim that your OFA rating depends on the day you send them in. Are they comparing them to a bunch of greyhounds or a bunch of corgis? We really don't know. At some point you have to just accept that the system is the one we have. We can send our x-rays to another agency if possible like penn-hip, or if the dog is registered to the SV, we can send them there. And we can learn to read x-rays. But we cannot just throw our hands in the air and say, it is all corrupt, why bother. 

Why bother to get them registered at all?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> At some point you have to expect there to be mistakes and problems in any system, people claim that your OFA rating depends on the day you send them in. Are they comparing them to a bunch of greyhounds or a bunch of corgis? We really don't know. At some point you have to just accept that the system is the one we have. We can send our x-rays to another agency if possible like penn-hip, or if the dog is registered to the SV, we can send them there. And we can learn to read x-rays. But we cannot just throw our hands in the air and say, it is all corrupt, why bother.
> 
> Why bother to get them registered at all?


That is not what I ment. All I am saying is to take everything with a grain of salt and to know the big picture. There is a **** of a lot corruption going on which is why you need to know picture. 

There are a lot of awesome dogs out there that are downtalked out of jealousy and they don't recover from that. Dogs that are overlooked and dogs that are being bred and popular, that should never be bred in the first place. 

Umsa vom Bungalow for example, it is said by knowledgable people that she was highly displastic and look in how many pedigrees she's in. She's produced some very nice stock and some of the worlds best working dogs go back to Umsa. 

There used to be a time where nobody would even bother to take x-rays and it's not too long ago and EVERY dog is going back to those dogs that have not been x-rayed. 

Just take the elbows. Not to long ago it wasn't mandatory to x-ray them.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

I read something recently from the OFA that I thought of while reading this thread. It was about Elbow Dysplasia, but the general premise applies. 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia

This is an interesting point from that:

_"There are many factors to consider when evaluating the progress of countries that permit breeding Grade I elbows. There may indeed be reasons to consider using Grade I elbows in breeding programs for the purpose of maintaining a broader gene pool, especially in countries where the breed specific rate of ED is approximately 25% or higher (as appears to be the case in some European countries). One must balance the potential consequences as they pertain both to the entire gene pool, and to elbow disease as a part of the gene pool. With a lower rate of ED in many breeds in the U.S., the genetic pressures to include Grade I ED's in most US breeding programs may not be the same as in other countries. Below are two sets of data which may help provide a basis for making a more informed decision whether to breed a dog affected with Grade I ED."_

So, one must always balance the overall rate of problem and the size of the gene pool when deciding. Its not always a simple black and white answer IMO.

That said, for the most part, no I would not want to take the risk with an dysplastic dog...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think elbows are a little different than hips though. Yes, it is a huge problem but it seems like it can be more likely to have a more environmental influence. For example, if a puppy is injured early on while it is growing on that elbow, might it be safe to assume that if they have DJD at two, it might be because of the injury? Also if the bones do not knit together properly by the proper age, UAP, could that have been caused by a serious accident or by an overage of high impact forced exercise -- like jogging with a 4-5 month puppy several miles on concrete daily, or letting the puppy work on the agility teeter -- pretty nasty jolt on those? I do not like to keep puppies in a bubble and will let them exercise themselves, run, jump, play all they want, but I always get a bit nervous when I hear people encouraging people to exercise them until they are tired.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

To me you have to take some chances in breedings. To try and evolve the breed as time goes on, you have to take chances. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, that's just the nature of it as it is science.

As I said earlier, if everyone felt that you don't breed a HD dog, then a many GREAT working dogs would have ceased to exist. The very landscape of GSD today would be vastly different. Let alone, people including myself would not have the dogs that they have. 

Its like people don't mind dogs with horrible nerves b/c they love them and will coddle them and live with their deficiencies On the other hand then don't want a dog from a breeding that could possible give you a dog with HD b/c "the dog will be in pain" despite the fact it can work its butt off and rock solid mentally.

Genetics and science are hard Breeding is hard. Truth is some dogs cut the mustard and some don't. This may hurt some people thoughts on breeders but guess what...many cull pups that can't cut it. They only keep the one's that make good dogs for work and breeding.

It is hard to say, "dont breed a HD dog." Why? B/c it depends on who you are breeding it to. It takes as Cliff pointed out....numerous breedings with different mates to see what is produced and then it takes another 2-3 generations to really see an impact. If said dog with HD is breed and produced 7 pups and 2 produce HD but they all have good traits and can work do you toss that dog aside or do more breeding and see what happens with the next litter? It takes time (years!) to see how things play out. Long time breeders know this and test with different littermates and with different mates to see what all is produced and then breed those to see further down the generation as to see what they can produce and who produces better. A breeder is just like a scientist in a lab....testuing the same thing many different ways b/c there are a number of different options that can turn out.

The problem today is that buyers don't keep in touch with breeders so it makes it extremely difficult to see how breedings go.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> I am not familiar with the fathers side of the PED but I do like the dam's. I wouldn't be concerned with Klara in the PED as she is way back in it. (2x in the 6th generation) With the dogs she produced, you WANT her in the pedigree.


Thanks, I agree which is why I went with this breeding.

So far, I am extremely happy and wouldn't change a thing about her.. oh, maybe except that her teeth would fall out for a few months... LOL


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Ace and Cliff - great posts. I am in complete agreement.

There are a lot of things to consider when breeding and hips is not the only thing.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Mrs K.....all the organizations have corrupt hands within them.
The SV system, The OFA, The AKC......these are still the organizations that we must rely on to support and supply information for breeders and enthusiasts alike. *But they are ONLY another base of possible information*....
I agree....good hips & elbows marked incorrectly and vice verse....this is another reason WHY knowledge, research and good old fashioned breeding experience is *priceless*.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so , exactly what is the issue. Breeding from a dysplastic dog? How many are already doing it ? 

This is where it gets frustrating . You have a dog that is OFA Fair , which means NO evidence of hip dysplasia . A person interested in a dog will get all excited not knowing what that FAIR means , which is not one stumble before "awfull" . It is free of evidence of hip dysplasia. You have done that x ray when the dog was , 3 years of age for OFA certification . Yet they will import or breed to a dog with a A stamp that is NZ and have a risky genotype pedigree salted with NZ's , behind and close up.

Look at examples of SV German dogs in the SV breed magazine with progeny consistently listed as "schwere" , eliminated from breeding . Yet the source of is a world famous dog , who has been well inbred on , and also comes from a very dodgy background for good hips, no even half decent hips, being genotypically dysplastic . 

Fred Lanting says "Then there is the German dog, with the "a" stamp given at an age when perhaps only 70 - 75% of dysplasia is detectable with the standard ventro-dorsal AVMA view. Compounding that problem is the fact that the "a" stamp (of approval) is awarded to these young dogs regardless whether they have normal, near-normal or "still permissable" hips . The later category includes many mildly or moderately dysplastic dogs. Progress is necessarily slower when not limited to just the "excellent and good" or "a" normal categories. Even around half of the "near normal" "a" stamp dogs will fail to pass OFA's standards for certification."

Not a level playing field is it . Two standards of viewing a range of normalcy. Technically a dog imported into North America with an "a" stamp should be x rayed for an OFA evaluation, age being taken into consideration , as OFA always does .?

So for those who are so hardline about the issue , go back and look at your dog's pedigrees and see if there are a lot of FN's , NZ's --- show lines - very likely . 

other issues -- the WGSL dog mentioned did not contribute to hip improvement , quite the opposite, yet it did not stop any one from heavily inbreeding on him , even though he himself was inbred on flawed ancestors . 
--- bad backs , cauda equina, spondylosis , becoming such a concern that Schweikert , a chief Koermeister , commented on the number of bitches at the GSD Sieger show in Bremen with dead or lifeless tail carriage , a first indication of cauda equina syndrome. 
Anybody check into that and not breed to those dogs ? I doubt it . 

Only in SV countries you say? Not so fast . Writing about spondylosis deformans , Lanting says "It became a very noticeable disorder in the German Shepherd Dog , when for a while, 90% of the "show" GSD's in the USA were allegedly descended from one very popular late-1960's American Grand Victor who had passed along this disease in a severe form (estimate based on a GSD magazine several years ago).

So in complete support of Cliff , in actuality by breeding a dog with borderline or grade one , he is still within the accepted practice of "a" stamp. 

There are other things to consider . Temperament. Working drives. Longevity. Freedom from digestive disorders. Functional conformation. Current German show line dogs do not have a functional structure . American show dogs have lots of angulation , very long limbs, lots of reach , but that too is not functional or proper for an all day trot . They lack a period of suspension . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, its all about breeding dogs instead of hips....these issues you bring up are just as important....sometimes if you have a dog with attributes that will strengthen or correct many aspects of the other parent, you will accept deficits in areas that the other parent has strengths to acheive balance.(compensation breeding). Good breeders look at the total dog to see what needs to be improved or strengthened to maintain balance. (First...Good breeders are knowledgeable of the facts of the breed as opposed to the myths)
You know what is a red flag to me for an unaccetable breeder???? What do they talk about or what is their focus in choosing breeding partners. You ever talk to breeders that the first thing they talk about is "look at that shoulder opening", or " look at the upper arm", or "look at the grips", or "look at the drive" or "look at the ground he/she covers", and on and on and on. Now this will be the first thing they talk about for EVERY dog they discuss, and they will often JUDGE the dog acceptable by that standard alone!!! Ever talk to those people???? The same with "hips" or "color" or "angulation". 
In other words they are not viewing the total dog and their emphasis and ultimately their breeding decisions is not based on the total dog or balanced dog. This is a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, bigger red flag to me in a breeder than the picky une focus some people have for determining a good dog or breeder. 
In a utilitarian/versatile breed; to focus on these specific aspects more than the temperament which is the one necessary component to make the dog versatile....is welll just plain BYB. 
Right now the breed as Carmen notes is rife with health issues, and structure issues, and temperament issues, that are the result of generations of this kind of thinking and breeding....so much so that we have different lines for every kind of owner.(Pure Bull manure, the breed was never meant to be stylized for every type owner).
Good hips are a necessity for a good working dog, and if we are breeding for Good dogs we will have good hips, because in the context of the total dog you will make the compensation....if you narrow the genepool too much EVEN in the name of attaining perfect hips, the quality of the dog will suffer with the increase of the things Carmen posted about.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

To me the issue is trust-people do rely on breeders to have the knowledge and to be honest-so I think the breeder should have informed the buyer


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The other thing that needs to be understood is the correlation between hips and the function of the dog(working)!! (this is a working/herding dog isn't it????)
There are so many myths and ignorant comments made about the effects and realities of less than perfect hips. Unless a dog is moderate to severe to crippling in their hips, the ability of the dog to function as a working dog is very little affected. That's right a mildly dyplastic dog can work until its 8/9 years in many many cases. (Especially if it has strong temperament which it should in the first place). 
If you hear the absolutist speak, they will tell how breeding to a fair or mild dog will lead to a litter of cripples that makes you irresponsible. That is so much nonsense that is no more than fear mongering. In most cases the % of severe/crippling dysplasia in the breed is less than 5%. The mild to moderate catergory is where the largest % of dysplastic dogs are. 
One of these days the forum needs to have an indepth discussion on the results of hips and the "total dog" when breeding is based on function, as opposed to "hips and the total dog" when breeding is based on clinical hip assessments. (Of course newby breeders only know breeding by clinical assessment, but it doesn't change the fact that are other ways to breed for hips)
For the fifty years before X-rays became the norm, the breed flourished, hips included. This is because people(mostly BYB cause there weren't hardly any hooby breeders back in the day) mostly bred to the best specimen that was available BASED on traits the German Shepherd needed to be functional. No one would breed to a coward, spook, nuerotic, etc. They wanted to breed to the fastest, toughest, (sometimes meanest), imppressive specimen they could find. (Now I know some of you pacifist are cringing). But my point is if a dog couldn't jump or clear the six foot straight wall....well they were going to breed to the dog that could, if a dog was run away on the Sch field(and you almost never saw this) then they were breeding to the dog that had courage and fortitude. No, they weren't perfect, but in the core tenets of the breed;the important stuff were maintained so the dog was functional in many diiferent areas WITHOUT clinical assessment of hips.(Shoot, nowadays dogs will show fear and insecurity on the field at the National Shows and the integrity of breeders today is to STILL breed to that dog cause his croup is nice....and these people are going to tell me something about improving the breed:crazy::crazy:. )
In closing, I am NOT saying that there isn't a place for clinical assessment in the breed and that it hasn't helped, BUT I am saying it is a tool and as is any tool the effectiveness depends on the application and the KNOWLEDGE of the application so as to maintain ALL aspects of the breed.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Cliff, I couldn't agree more. 

If you are looking for the meanes SOB stud out there people are asking "Why would you want to breed to such extremes." because those dogs are not wanted anymore but honestly, I rather have a dog with an ZW of 100 an a dog that functions, instead of a dog that has a ZW of 70 an running away from the slightest noise.
And just because a dog has halbe HD, doesn't mean they can't work.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Also, if you think about other health problems GI issues (diarrhea management for entire dog's life), autoimmune issues, heart, allergies, etc than it becomes obvious that HD is not the scariest thing in the world. After seeing quite a few dogs with hip replacements I am pretty relaxed re HD now. It can be fixed.


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