# "Accidentally" adopted "Real Deal" in WA state. (help!)



## jupitergirl

Fellow GSD Lovers - I have an extremely unusual situation, I could use help and advice with.

I am not new to GSD ownership. My last GSD just died of cancer. So about 7 weeks ago, we adopted an 85 lb GSD 11mo old puppy -found not far from a military base. Yes, he's big. But sweet! No training, except housebroken. Due to unusual coloring, I thought possible mix, maybe some great dane? Nope. GSD.

We have one expert trainer we always consult - with our newly adopted dogs. He took one look and said, "Whoa. Uh... great dog. Elite. DDR, Slovakian? This is the "Real Deal." REAL. DEAL. How the heck did you get him?! This dog belongs in service, possibly not even just-for Schutzhund sport. Real deal." 

What to do? I'm not a cop. I'm a mom. This "real deal" (a term I'd never even really paid attention to, before) is in my living room, acting like a perfect (though very serious) gentleman.
So - I don't know who to call - and I start training him. I mean, he may be the real deal - but he's in my house. So I do what dog owners do. I start training him. And it's increasingly obvious that what my trainer says is true: He's a good boy. But he's got an intensity, a prey drive, chase drive, loyalty, working dog mentality - that sometimes makes him not even seem like a dog. It's like adopting a kitten and finding out Fluffy is actually a lion.. and suddenly everything makes sense. 

But hey - we're probably overreacting, right? A snap judgement. Trained him for a few weeks (he's smarter than I am, btw). 
I take him to A DIFFERENT evaluator, expert dog trainer. (This one offers a very expensive board & train for a minimum 5 weeks). 

She checks him out, DOES NOT try to sell me any training package -- and says, "Great dog. Elite. Real Deal. You've got a NAVY SEAL here. This is not a civilian dog. This dog is meant for full-time work. Maybe bomb sniffing - but doesn't seem to have the crazy "ball possessiveness" they tend to look for. But that can be trained up." 

That's funny to me. His ball drive goes like this: Pound after ball. Get ball. Rip ball in half. No more ball. Sigh with deep satisfaction.
And yes, he has very high prey drive - besides ball. I later learned he had unsuccessful re-homing which involved unfortunate experience for cat - and chasing horses all over the neighborhood for days.

So now - I have a 12month old Navy Seal who is fantastic. But about 100X more GSD than most GSD-lovers have ever handled (or can even comprehend). He's got everything a professional could ever want (and more, because he's a little too big at 90lbs now).

We love him. He loves us. He's fantastic. But he needs a full time job, doing what he was bred to do: Working side-by-side, every day - with a handler he loves and respects (and would take a bullet for). 

I have one cop connection through a trainer, that we're trying to enlist for further evaluation. 

The local GSD rescue cannot help with their cop/retired cop connections - because they're afraid of action by the (other) irresponsible rescue group involved (which demands that any of their dogs come back to them, if rehoming doesn't work out).

Any advice? Connections in Pacific NW?

I feel a great responsibility - not just to this dog (whom I now love) but to America. (yes, corny - I know.. but I mean it). 
GSD's deemed to be "the real deal" belong in the hands of the good guys. I have to protect him from ending up in the wrong hands. 
And yes, I know lots of GSD owners out there think their dogs, too - could make great K9 cops. But with me, it's different. Hearing that he's the "real deal, navy seal" was not the answer I was looking for. In fact, it's been heartbreaking.. knowing that doing the right thing will rip my family's heart out. 

But if you know police dogs - you know that even the best are a little like loaded automatic weapons. Few people should own them. 

Thank you for reading. Please be kind. I will read every bit of advice offered. Again, thank you.


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## Mary Jane

Maybe you can contact Conservation Canines | Center for Conservation Biology at the University of Washington. They train dogs for scent detection of wildlife (droppings). Listen to this:

"The ideal scat detection dog is intensely focused and has an insatiable urge to play. Their obsessive, high-energy personalities make them difficult to maintain as a family pet, so they often end up at a shelter. The single-minded drive of these dogs makes them perfect Conservation Canines! They are happy to work all day...."

You seem to be sincerely interested in your great dog's well-being.

Good luck.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Um... there are lots of these "real deal" dogs living happily in "pet" homes, I have one myself. You just have to keep life interesting for them. What you describe is not that unusual. Could it be that you just don't want to (or perhaps can't) spend the time and attention on him that he needs?

Susan


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## Jax08

I know many dogs who are the real deal that are doing sports rather than work. I also know trainers that wouldn't know the 'real deal' if they were literally bit in the butt.

Are you having issues with him? It doesn't sound like it. 


> acting like a perfect (though very serious) gentleman...I have a 12month old Navy Seal who is fantastic


Are you unable to provide him an outlet for his energy? 
Or do you have some misplaced guilt thinking this dog should be more than he will be with you??
What kind of trainer eval'd him? Was it an IPO trainer? A K9 trainer? 

Personally? GO ENJOY YOUR DOG!!! As long as you can provide an outlet for his energy and are willing to train him, there is no reason for you to give him up.


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## misslesleedavis1

Tons of people have working GSD'S on this forum. They train them, teach them proper manners and live happily ever after with there dogs. 
I wouldn't worry so much about the "real deal" comments, take it as a compliment and find a trainer who can help you recognize certain drives and how to manage your new boy,


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## Kahrg4

Please don't feel like you're doing America a disservice by keeping, loving, and training your dog. There are a great deal of rock solid, 'real deal' dogs in pet homes all over the world. Just because your dog may be good at working doesn't mean he can't have a wonderfully fulfilled life in a civilian home. Teach him agility, dock diving, do Schulthund, etc. Take him for walks in the park, get him the occasional frozen yogurt, take him on errands, keep him busy with you and your family and he'll have a fabulous life. Enjoy that you have a dog with a great head on his shoulders. 

Also, not that he wouldn't, but it's entirely possible that during intense training he may demonstrate behaviors that are undesirable and he wouldn't be selected to graduate. Then where does he go? I was also under the impression that most working dogs were brought up from a very young age with the training as part of their daily lives. Not that you can't teach an older dog new tricks (you can) just don't know if the handlers would have the time/interest to untrain and then retrain a grown pup. I vote you keep your dog and serve America by demonstrating to this country what proper dog ownership and training with a fantastic dog looks like.


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## jupitergirl

*Response to question about "issues"*

I am sure there are lots of folks on GSD forum with "real deal." I meant no disrespect to anyone's dog.

But I've owned GSD's before. And this is different. 

I can only be in training mode with him.. or relaxing in the home mode. We can't play. He gets overstimulated because of his hard wiring - he needs that excitement channeled very narrowly and expertly. He's not being a bad boy. But for someone who hasn't taken the real deal from zip to schutzhund champ - recognizing that raw drive and intensity is scary. This is REALLY hard to explain. 

As some of you know, (and as I am learning) the very deliberate breeding, and hard wiring of the "real deal," (particularly of the Eastern European variety) gives them a 0-60mph (ready for duty) that many GSD owners have never seen before. 

I am noticing that a lot of the breeders who sell mainly to police force and military - will not sell or adopt out their males (even puppies) to "ordinary," experienced GSD owners. They can only go to VERY experienced handlers who have a job to do. 

So - my family and I have already discussed that if he stays with us forever, we join a schutzhund club, no question about it. But - my trainers (and I get what you're saying about trainers. These have a combined 60 yrs experience, both have gsd's and one has a Czech-working line gsd) -- anyway, my trainers say weekend schutzhund hobby likely wouldn't do it --for this particular dog. 

I'd love it if another, more experience evaluator said, "No problem. Join a club. Train him up. Love him up." 
So far - no one is saying that. They're saying, "Great dog. Bomb? Border patrol?.. hmm.. which job is best?"

And - yes - he is already set to be evaluated with the Conservation Dog Group U-W (thank you for that advice). They do groundbreaking work with dogs, tracking/collecting endangered-species scat. 
He'll be evaluated there, but my hunch is - he's better suited for felon-scat. 
Again - thank you for all your kind advice, GSD lovers. Much gratitude.


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## shepherdmom

A pet home will not hurt him. The question is can you manage him? You will need to wear his behind out. Hiking, running, playing ball....(which you will have to teach him how), nosework... Whatever you decide upon you need to do it consistently rain or shine hot or cold. There are a lot of these "rockstar" dogs out there that wind up as pets or in shelters or rescue because there are not enough working homes to go around. It can be done but it takes a commitment on your part. It will be up to you to keep him safe and away from situations where his prey drive can hurt him or others. It is a daunting task and not for everyone but it can be done.

edited: Sorry posted this before I saw your second message.


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## misslesleedavis1

Well, the good news is this forum is filled with not only pet owners that have working dogs but also lots of members who compete and do extremely well at the schutzhund sport, we also have breeders that see there dogs off to law enforcement and a "real deal"  military dog handler. 
Best of luck! Your dog sounds fun, post a pic when you can.


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## jupitergirl

*Reply to ShepherdMom's question*

ShepherdMom - you've hit the nail on the head. I am sure lots of people here have taken elite real-deal and made them good family dogs.

But can I manage it myself? I ask myself this - every single day. Do I have what it takes to be the kind of extraordinary handler that many of you have become? I really don't know. I have been taking it day by day, and trying to be honest about my own potential and limitations. This probably hasn't been helped by getting completely freaked out by the trainers evaluations. 

I work full time. (but I work graveyard, so he's only alone for about 2 1/2 hours in crate.) 
I have kids. They have activities. I am walking him 2+ yrs a day. (socializing him.. practically stalking men in sunglasses and people wearing weird clothing or with a limp - so nothing looks strange to him.) And we do other basic training, too (which any dog owner should anticipate). But "play" (sorry to repeat myself) will require expert help, to deal with over excitement /easily over stimulated. it's a no-go on that right now. Other dogs: He acts like a gentleman with other dogs - body language looks fine - except the alpha-stare. So they don't like him. They snarl. He stands there. Dog park? I'm gonna say noooooo.... (for now, at least).

Can I manage the real deal? Maybe. I sure am trying. I don't think everyone is honest with themselves about this very question, don't you think?

I do think there are a lot of people out there who could do a much better job, no matter how hard I try. And there are also people who would be giddy about having such an elite dog - rather than seeing this as an unexpectedly very heavy load to carry. (I feel like a terrible person writing that. I love him.)
I will keep getting advice and evaluations (as we train) - until I know that I am doing the right thing - either way. 

Sorry for the ramble... I've had a lot of sleepless nights (days - since I work a graveyard) - worrying about what is the right thing to do.
thank you again, EVERYONE.


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## Jax08

I'm not really sure what your question is. Do what you feel is right by this dog. If you want to keep him and train with him then do that. At 11 months, he has a LOT of maturing to do so what you see now management wise will be completely different in a year.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

<<And there are also people who would be giddy about having such an elite dog>>

This is not an "elite" dog, this sounds like a well-bred working line German shepherd, which is what many, many of us on this list have. And either you want this type of dog, can handle him and exercise his brain, or you can't. That's not a decision anyone on this forum can make, it's one you and your family have to make. They take a lot of time and devotion, but for all of us, the rewards are definitely worth it. Perhaps that's not the dog you want. But once he matures, he is going to be a very good dog with the right guidance now. Your decision.

Susan


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## jupitergirl

*reply to Jax question*

Sorry for lack of clarity, Jax. There are a lot of muddy questions in there.

One big one is - if you felt like you needed to get a seriously expert evaluation on a dog, where would you go? Whom would you call?

I have had two evaluations, so far. But these evaluators are not schutzhund evaluators or cops. They know GSD's - but its not like the "real deal,' is their specialty. 

Who would you call - if you thought you might be way out of your league, to give you an honest answer?


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## shepherdmom

jupitergirl said:


> ShepherdMom - you've hit the nail on the head. I am sure lots of people here have taken elite real-deal and made them good family dogs.
> 
> But can I manage it myself?
> 
> I do think there are a lot of people out there who could do a much better job, no matter how hard I try. And there are also people who would be giddy about having such an elite dog - rather than seeing this as an unexpectedly very heavy load to carry. (I feel like a terrible person writing that. I love him.)


It sounds like you are off to a good start. Only you can answer the question can you manage it.

I had a lot of help a husband who was experienced with GSD's, a breeder who I could call at any time and frequently did, an experienced trainer who loved kids and was willing to work with my kids to help all of us to learn, and I had other dogs to help wear them out when they got into that freaky over stimulated land shark mode. 

How old are your kids? For me that would be a deciding factor. By the time I got my working line boys, my kids were old enough to take on some of the responsibility. I don't think it would have worked if my kids had been any younger. My working line boys would not have tolerated the type of toddler crawling on them that my first GSD did.


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## Jax08

I would find a good IPO trainer. Not all IPO clubs are equal and I don't think there are many in Washington state. You might try asking for recommendations on
https://www.facebook.com/groups/IPOTraining/
Many IPO people in all states on that page! If you were on the east coast I could give many recommendations but I don't know anyone in the west. My advice would be to go to that facebook page and ask for a good recommendation.


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## Springbrz

Have you considered Search and Rescue? Not all "working line" "real deal" dogs need to be police or military dogs. IPO is great, but if you think your dog should be working a "patriotic" job. Maybe SAR is something to look into. You, your family and your dog can serve you community/country as a SAR team. Just a thought???


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## Nigel

Was the military base Lewis Mc Chord? If yes, try contacting Jean at Schrader haus. They are in Roy Washington just south of Ft Lewis.


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## SuperG

I just read the OP.... and then Susan GSD Mom and Jax08 and they echo my feelings.....it's no big deal, I wouldn't get all worked up over the dog being some special ninja-like covert super duper double black ops loaded automatic weapon, ready to go off at any second mentality as you will better served long term. I guess I am of the mentality that unless the dog has already received intense specific training, the dog can become whatever you choose for him which hopefully utilizes his predispositions.

Enjoy the dog !


SuperG


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## newlie

jupitergirl said:


> ShepherdMom - you've hit the nail on the head. I am sure lots of people here have taken elite real-deal and made them good family dogs.
> 
> But can I manage it myself? I ask myself this - every single day. Do I have what it takes to be the kind of extraordinary handler that many of you have become? I really don't know. I have been taking it day by day, and trying to be honest about my own potential and limitations. This probably hasn't been helped by getting completely freaked out by the trainers evaluations.
> 
> I work full time. (but I work graveyard, so he's only alone for about 2 1/2 hours in crate.)
> I have kids. They have activities. I am walking him 2+ yrs a day. (socializing him.. practically stalking men in sunglasses and people wearing
> weird clothing or with a limp - so nothing looks strange to him.) And we do other basic training, too (which any dog owner should anticipate). But "play" (sorry to repeat myself) will require expert help, to deal with over excitement /easily over stimulated. it's a no-go on that right now. Other dogs: He acts like a gentleman with other dogs - body language looks fine - except the alpha-stare. So they don't like him. They snarl. He stands there. Dog park? I'm gonna say noooooo.... (for now, at least).
> 
> Can I manage the real deal? Maybe. I sure am trying. I don't think everyone is honest with themselves about this very question, don't you think?
> 
> I do think there are a lot of people out there who could do a much better job, no matter how hard I try. And there are also people who would be giddy about having such an elite dog - rather than seeing this as an unexpectedly very heavy load to carry. (I feel like a terrible person writing that. I love him.)
> I will keep getting advice and evaluations (as we train) - until I know that I am doing the right thing - either way.
> 
> Sorry for the ramble... I've had a lot of sleepless nights (days - since I work a graveyard) - worrying about what is the right thing to do.
> thank you again, EVERYONE.


The only thing I will add is that you probably should keep your boy away from dog parks/doggie daycare or anything like that. My boy is a soft GSD and I had to take him out of daycare after he nipped a dog on two separate occasions. It was probably herding behavior and no blood was drawn, but I couldn't take the chance after that. Newlie has never shown any aggression toward people, but doesn't care for some dogs too much.

GSD's, in general, don't do well in these environments. I think they tend to be too rough and want to try to boss all the other dogs around. Plus, they like to be with their people, not other animals. It is usually the human who wants their dog to play with other dogs, German shepherds could not care less. And please don't think I am being critical when I say this, I was one of the people I am talking about!

Then, there is the problem that some people in dog parks don't supervise their pets and you have a recipe for disaster looming. And keep in mind that if there was an altercation, it wouldn't matter if a smaller dog was chewing your dog's face off, your dog would still get the blame. The big dog always does.


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## SuperG

What do you mean, "can I handle the real deal" ?????

A great dog makes a good trainer look great. A great trainer makes an average dog look better...a crappy uninvolved owner ruins a great dog. As far as I can tell the onus falls on the human to bring the dog to it's best and maybe more. 

A sweeping generalization if I I might, GSD and other similar breed enthusiasts prefer the breeds because of their abilities and potential. Can you handle the real deal ???? I guess that all depends on what you are willing to dedicate to.......an average GSD is better at training a "lazy" human than the flip-side of that coin. So, go for it and commit to what you are seeing in the dog and appreciate a dog which can match wits with you to a degree. What the dog becomes is mostly by your hand.


SuperG


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## jupitergirl

*"Real Deal" question*

SuperG - 

What, apparently, the evaluators mean is "DDR+some other area (Slovakian?)" - who looks and acts like a very intentionally bred dog for police and protection work, all day - every day. 

(How some people can tell this - looking at a (now) 12mo old, not fully grown or mature -I've no idea)

I think they're also talking about mind: a dog who expects an order to guide his actions- every minute of every hour of every day. Even if he's sleeping. In fact, in order to get him to rest - he needs to be told to "lay down and sleep." Then he'll sleep - without a single peep - until 5 minutes after your alarm clock should have gone off - at which point he will let you know you're running late. Without that "lay down and sleep" command - he might whine off and on for hours - because he hasn't been given an order. (Is this normal for ALL GSD'S? If so - my others were the odd ducks).

Obviously - I wouldn't know a "real deal" myself, if it ran up and nipped me in the rear (fortunately, THIS one hasn't done that yet (-unlike my dear-departed GSD's with more of a herding drive))

I was as skeptical as I was confused about "real deal" pronouncement - which is why I went to see another trainer (who freaked me out even more - because "real deal" implies that I would need to become a sort of "super-mega-Alpha" mom. (well.. that's daunting. Is there a boot-camp for ME?)

So, my husband (who travels a lot for work) was also alarmed that maybe with him gone so much, leaving me with: a graveyard shift, adolescent kids, a household, and a "real deal" - might just make me snap once and for all.  

He sent an email to a friend in law enforcement, and just told them what we were told by two evaluators (but we can't back it up with personal expertise). He forwarded it. And now the head of a K9 department (in law enforcement) wants to come out and take a look. 

OMG - We are going to feel like SUCH FOOLS(!!!) if this guy comes out here and says - "yep, real deal... that is, if you're looking for the "hardness" of a pug." 

But - if that's the case, we'll wipe out other expert opinions - and know for sure that we have a dog that will be (with lots of continued training) can be just dandy with us, in boring suburbia. (sure, poke fun here - but believe me, my last GSD was very happy here - beheading backyard possums. He loved his self-appointed vermin-control job.)

And - if he's not destined for a life in Kevlar - I've also found another trainer, who seems awesome. He's a ragin' Cajun - and he is already slapping his knee, belly-laughing about the "real deal" title. He cannot WAIT to see our dog strut in, like a big hot mess. He specializes in helping owners with protection dogs, and has K9-officer-clients who think he's hiding a magic wand somewhere. 

I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED (if only for your amusement). Thanks for all your support and patience. I feel like I'm in a calculus room full of geniuses - and I only know algebra. You've been very kind.


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## misslesleedavis1

There are few people that can look at a dog and go "yep that's a DDR dog " or whatever else, because without a pedigree to back it up, it's not easy. There are certain things people can look at and go "yes that dogs most likely from working line but which lines? Who knows without a pedigree" 
My old foster dog Roxy could have been a real deal, heck she would spends hours looking for her ball, she would hang off branches in the back yard, was not afraid of anything, was so utterly confident with anything she did it was always fun taking her places. She liked all people and never let out a growl at kids running by or up to her, just a really great example of a dog.
She is happily living on a farm! I'm trying to get her mom to go to an IPO club and have her assessment done.


My old trainer who is successful and a few people in between have looked at my boy and have assumed he was bred for work. Some people assume he's a police dog because of the way he looks, but he's not, far far from it. Just a great looking bi color GSD.


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## jupitergirl

*one more (big) thing..*

I think I know where I caused some confusion among responders...
when I said he was "sitting there, in living room - acting like a perfect gentleman..." - I should have said that the operative word here -- is "ACTING."

He doesn't always act like a perfect gentleman ("Ahh... (I hear some of you saying).. "Now we're getting down TO IT.")

Rescues usually come with issues, baggage, trauma from shelter - and who knows what else. 

This dog, "real deal" or otherwise... has STUFF to deal with. No surprise. He's a huge, untrained (but I have him on a loose leash now  ) big-boy with an attitude. He'd love to rise in household hierarchy, maybe above my daughter (we've seen some lip-curls... so we nixed any furniture access immediately). So he has dominant "inclinations" - but not a true dominant (if you listen to trainer Michael Ellis from Leerburg give his lecture on overused "dominant" pronouncements). Would he like to rise in status above all-else but hubby? You bet. Does he back down after being told to "move it?" Yup. So - an adolescent with an attitude and ambition, but not a true dominant. And when he came to us - he wasn't always amenable to being touched or petted. Dominance or fear or health issues? Vet said he had a yeast infection on paws. I knew he had itchy skin. We've transformed his diet and coat and are (still) treating his paws.

He is bonding with us.. social (SOMETIMES). He is smart as a whip - and might know exactly what I want him to do all the time (and is just testing me. maybe he likes me, but doesn't think I'm not alpha enough. maybe he's just a pain-in-the butt teenager. maybe he is not dominant - but acts tough and has a lot of fear hidden under all that confident bravado). When he wrinkles his muzzle at his ball (in my hand) - it's kinda scary. Should I be scared? He's not doing it at me - he's looking at his ball like its a wolverine that needs to have its larynx removed post-haste! What am I dealing with, here? 
--I DON'T KNOW!!-- 

(I usually DO know dogs. They like me. I like them. I train them. I feed them really well. I incorporate them into my life and errands and day - and they love it. But THIS one - was a Rubiks cube. )

So - I went to a trainer for help/answers and was told "holy crap - real deal." Went to a different, very experienced evaluator and was told, "wow. navy seal, real deal." 

It didn't really answer my questions - but gave me another huge, new list of crazy (sleepless nights) questions. 

So -- that's the big, messy story. again - we're going to see more people. 
And I'll keep you posted (for your amusement - and very helpful advice).
thanks for reading the latest in my hot mess.


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## Bella67

Really no advice for me, I don't own a working line dog. But, can you post a picture of him? Really curious to see what he looks like.


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## martemchik

No confusion, you just caused friction with the way you’re talking about the dog. “Navy Seal” “Elite” blah blah blah. Most of us have read/heard a lot of people talk their dogs up, then when it comes to it, the dog is nothing like they’ve described. Used to be a poster here who had a dog, thought she was god’s gift to dogs, thought she needed a job, sold her to a person who was going to put her into a working program, dog came down with illnesses caused by stress about a week into the program and had to be sent back to the original owner.

You also admitted that the two people that said that to you, have no experience with working dogs. To the majority of “pet trainers” a higher drive, working GSD, is going to be a lot. They’re going to think most of them are crazy and over the top. The fact that the one trainer didn’t even try to sell you a package tells me that they’re probably not capable of dealing with anything higher drive. On top of that, if the dog is DDR…those aren’t really known to be the lines with the “over the top” prey drive. They can have a lot, but not an unmanageable amount. And yes, if you’re not used to even that level, it will seem like a lot. Then you’ll see a different dog and realize that yours really isn’t as high drive as you’d originally thought. You have no idea how often someone on here thinks their dog is high drive and yet they’ve only compared it to like 2 other shepherds. Just because a dog will fetch all day long doesn’t mean it’s high drive.

If you don’t believe you can handle this dog, by all means find him a new home. But to keep repeating and even thinking yourself that this dog is something extra special, is only detrimental to you. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t be able to train and handle this dog. He seems clear, not aggressive, and very capable of being a great family dog. Thinking he’s too much dog for you is only going to lead you to fail with the dog when there is really no reason you should.


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## misslesleedavis1

Bella67 said:


> Really no advice for me, I don't own a working line dog. But, can you post a picture of him? Really curious to see what he looks like.


I second this!
Snap a pic and throw it up, I'd love to see what he looks like


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## wick

Hi I think that it is awesome and respect worthy that you are working so hard to do what's best for your pup! I say get in contact with a working dogs for conservation program, they often recruit from shelters because yes high drive high energy (abnormally so) dogs tend to be unmanageable for people who have jobs and families and also can rarely be exercised enough to be happy. German shepherds have a toonn of energy the op has experience and says that he is above average and she just wants to give him a great life! Nothing wrong with that


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## WesS

Don't get swayed away by any negativity  you are already contacting multiple professionals in multiple avenues to get an assessment. You are already going over and beyond for the pup. Please keep us updated on whether it's a 'navy seal' or not. Interesting post. We can all learn something from your experience on this. Don't forget about us either way. Will be reading. Keep us updated please.Cheers.


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## d4lilbitz

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I second this!
> Snap a pic and throw it up, I'd love to see what he looks like


I third this!


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## SuperG

martemchik said:


> No confusion, you just caused friction with the way you’re talking about the dog. “Navy Seal” “Elite” blah blah blah. Most of us have read/heard a lot of people talk their dogs up, then when it comes to it, the dog is nothing like they’ve described. Used to be a poster here who had a dog, thought she was god’s gift to dogs, thought she needed a job, sold her to a person who was going to put her into a working program, dog came down with illnesses caused by stress about a week into the program and had to be sent back to the original owner.
> 
> You also admitted that the two people that said that to you, have no experience with working dogs. To the majority of “pet trainers” a higher drive, working GSD, is going to be a lot. They’re going to think most of them are crazy and over the top. The fact that the one trainer didn’t even try to sell you a package tells me that they’re probably not capable of dealing with anything higher drive. On top of that, if the dog is DDR…those aren’t really known to be the lines with the “over the top” prey drive. They can have a lot, but not an unmanageable amount. And yes, if you’re not used to even that level, it will seem like a lot. Then you’ll see a different dog and realize that yours really isn’t as high drive as you’d originally thought. You have no idea how often someone on here thinks their dog is high drive and yet they’ve only compared it to like 2 other shepherds. Just because a dog will fetch all day long doesn’t mean it’s high drive.
> 
> If you don’t believe you can handle this dog, by all means find him a new home. But to keep repeating and even thinking yourself that this dog is something extra special, is only detrimental to you. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t be able to train and handle this dog. He seems clear, not aggressive, and very capable of being a great family dog. Thinking he’s too much dog for you is only going to lead you to fail with the dog when there is really no reason you should.


Me likes this.


SuperG


----------



## jupitergirl

*Oops - sorry for any friction. Not intended. Thanks for advice.*

Okay - now I think I'm clear on how bragging is interpreted on GSD-forums. 

I guess I sounded like I was bragging about my dog. 

I could have titled the post - WHO HERE IS CONFIDENT and EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO HANDLE A MAYBE, POSSIBLY "REAL DEAL?"- ('cuz I might not be.. and I might have a dog for you.. (if you pass a background check and 350 questions to help me make sure that this mostly sweet guy ends up in a truly forever home this time).

Yes, the dog evaluations messed with my head. My confidence self-destructed - just at the words being thrown around. 

But, After reading so many replies - and talking to more people - I am convinced.. he's just a dog. I am not going to listen to any more real deal stuff, from any more dog evaluators. 

(I have to read the instructions how to post a pic, here - maybe next to my user name? he looks weird. 90lb, solid Chocolate. yellow eyes. So - recessive liver coat, flat hair. Seen it before? akc doesn't want to see anything like it in the show ring. They used to be put down. (is that less braggy? he'd be disqualified on sight, even if I could produce a lineage. which I can't.)

Anway, good news! The evaluator I'm seeing today - is an retired army guy who couldn't care less about eastern Europe. He's going to look at TEMPERAMENT - and try to figure out where this dog's head is at - to determine whether I can train him, what degree of expert help I'd need, if he's too much dog for ME (I'm not his cup'o tea in the alpha world?) or if he really might be good for training up to a full time occupation of some kind, with someone who is a better, bolder alpha. 

So this seems good to me, the guy I'm seeing today. Straight talk. No fancy titles. He's been training protection dogs for decades. He'll evaluate me probably as much as the dog. 

The better question in all of this may be not about the dog - but me. Am I the real deal? Jeez. I'm the real "dog lover," deal - who can guide a stubborn dog through basic training and good obedience. But I've never tried to be anything more than that - and I don't think I want to be anything more than that, in the dog world. 
Maybe - if my confidence gets boosted by this ragin Cajun trainer (can't wait to meet this guy in person), the dog and I will stick it out together. And if our bond and trust grow - maybe I would find it fun to see how far we can take the training. I bet LOTS of owners who never intended to go very far - have stepped up because it's just so much fun, after bonding with a special dog. Life is funny, who knows?

I'll let you know what this trainer/evaluator says. He's a hoot, and I could use a good laugh.


----------



## Lilie

Thank you so much for adopting a dog and then working so hard to make sure you are the best handler for your dog. 

Just because you may be used to driving a Kia, that does not mean that you can't handle a sports car. 

It sounds like you've already gone through different lengths to ensure you'll do best by your dog. Kudos to you!


----------



## Jelpy

Ya know, what struck me when I was reading your posts-I'll be honest and admit I've skipped anything but the first page-is that while Military/police dogs need to be trained from day one, I believe seeing eye dogs are often sent home to learn how to be pets when they are puppies and don't start training until after they are 1 year old or so. I'm not swearing on that, but I believe that it how it works. If you are concerned about hime living up to his potential, maybe he would be a good seeing eye or service dog. Just a thought. And BTW, he sounds wonderful. 

Jelpy


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## misslesleedavis1

Sounds pretty, yes I have seen them before, can't wait to see yours and read all about what the trainer says!


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## Susan_GSD_mom

We would love to see a picture of him. And perhaps the tags those 'trainers' and/or 'evaluators' were trying to put on him did hit a very discordant note with many here. I, for one, have never heard or read those terms applied to a working GSD--"real deal", "elite", "navy seal." Unless it was by some byb trying to rope in buyers... He's a young dog, and he's trying to find the boundaries he's going to live within in your household. He's not the one to make the boundaries, he just wants to know where they are. You were I think closer with your own evaluation of him when you called him a pain-in-the-butt teenager--who also test the waters, push around looking for boundaries. You are the parent, you set them.

So maybe this ragin' cajun can help teach you how to set those boundaries and enforce them as he grows into adulthood. Hang in there, be determined, and a year from now I think you will be bragging about what a great dog he is!

Susan


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## Jax08

So you have a 90# liver 11 month old?

First, liver is a disqualifying color. I know of breeders that have had livers and places them in homes. They are not culled. They can be working line, backyard breeder, puppy mill, "rare color" breeders (who are just puppy mills). They can be from anywhere. 

Second, 90# is HUGE! Working line dogs are not typically oversized as to look like a Great Dane. Let alone an 11 month old.

As far as posting a pic, the easiest way is if you already have one posted somewhere like Facebook. Then just right click on teh picture and "copy image location" then paste it between









So tell us what he does that makes you concerned? I have a feeling he's just a young, drivey, male with no manners.


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## MineAreWorkingline

jupitergirl said:


> He'd love to rise in household hierarchy, maybe above my daughter (we've seen some lip-curls... so we nixed any furniture access immediately).


I would be very concerned with this.

I also would not be afraid to rehome this dog, you seem to be having a lot of reservations about him. He might not be the right dog for you or your family.


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## Anubis_Star

I guess I'm confused by this post? And will admit I have not read the rest of the replies.

Sounds like you are training this dog... and he is doing great in your home.... So.... what's the problem ?

Don't get so hung up on "the real deal". Yes, it's probably far easier to find a "real deal" malinois. But not nearly as impossible as finding a "real deal" dobermann anymore.... They're practically like a unicorn. Point is, there are plenty of good GSD breeders producing plenty of great working prospects. It's not like you've landed on the last of a dying breed. Don't feel obligated to "sacrifice him for the greater good".

As well, this whole mentality that working line dogs can't be good pets is a little sad. Berlin does ok at IPO. His 2 brothers are really excelling at it. And his other brother I know of is living a great pampered life as a pet.

Can you commit to training him, exercising him appropriately, giving him mental stimulation throughout the day? If so, then so what?

If he does great in your home and you are willing to commit to an active, intelligent dog, then why can't he be your pet?

Btw, it's not so much that the dogs themselves are loaded guns... more like the dogs that have actually had the bite work and protection/work training that are loaded guns.


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## misslesleedavis1

I'm with everyone here,
Don't sell yourself short- 
You know were elite police k9's go at night? Home with their handlers and they usually are surrounded by a loving normal family.


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## Anubis_Star

martemchik said:


> No confusion, you just caused friction with the way you’re talking about the dog. “Navy Seal” “Elite” blah blah blah. Most of us have read/heard a lot of people talk their dogs up, then when it comes to it, the dog is nothing like they’ve described. Used to be a poster here who had a dog, thought she was god’s gift to dogs, thought she needed a job, sold her to a person who was going to put her into a working program, dog came down with illnesses caused by stress about a week into the program and had to be sent back to the original owner.
> 
> You also admitted that the two people that said that to you, have no experience with working dogs. To the majority of “pet trainers” a higher drive, working GSD, is going to be a lot. They’re going to think most of them are crazy and over the top. The fact that the one trainer didn’t even try to sell you a package tells me that they’re probably not capable of dealing with anything higher drive. On top of that, if the dog is DDR…those aren’t really known to be the lines with the “over the top” prey drive. They can have a lot, but not an unmanageable amount. And yes, if you’re not used to even that level, it will seem like a lot. Then you’ll see a different dog and realize that yours really isn’t as high drive as you’d originally thought. You have no idea how often someone on here thinks their dog is high drive and yet they’ve only compared it to like 2 other shepherds. Just because a dog will fetch all day long doesn’t mean it’s high drive.
> 
> If you don’t believe you can handle this dog, by all means find him a new home. But to keep repeating and even thinking yourself that this dog is something extra special, is only detrimental to you. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t be able to train and handle this dog. He seems clear, not aggressive, and very capable of being a great family dog. Thinking he’s too much dog for you is only going to lead you to fail with the dog when there is really no reason you should.


I third this! Just read through everything... frankly at this point "the real deal" is just giving me a headache. What is "the real deal"? I don't think these trainers know.
(DDR dogs are not known for their high drive)

I was going to say this dog sounds no different than any other young, working line male. Yes, Berlin is my first "well bred" GSD and he is night and day different than any of the others. But that isn't a bad thing.

Imagine if you had never of been told he was "the real deal". Would you have these same concerns about him.

I'm interested to hear what this "cajun" has to say. Sounds like someone I would like


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## Pretzels

I don't think people on here are trying to be negative... I think other posters are just trying to get across that he's probably a typical working line dog, which are much less commonly seen than the average GSD in everyday life. To a dog trainer the doesn't specialize in german shepherds or protection training, they might seem very rare and elite, and they may not know much about them except that they are the type of GSD that they see used in the military/police.

On this forum though, a lot of people have tons of experience with true working line GSDs. These dogs for the most part, can be great in pet homes when given an outlet for their drives and intelligence. IMO, for what it's worth, dogs are not born with some innate desire to be a police or military dog and won't feel unfulfilled in a home as long as they have daily exercise and mental stimulation. They can have a happy and full life being a dog, belonging to a family. 

You sound really dedicated and interested in what's best for your dog! I dont think there's any reason why you shouldn't be able to makes it work. Based on your description of his behavior, with him being 11 months (just a puppy still), as long as he has good training and leadership and daily activity, he sounds like he would do great in your home!


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## Muskeg

Please update us on the trainer's evaluation, very curious. Also, OP, can you PM me his name?


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## CountryGirl01

Lilie said:


> Just because you may be used to driving a Kia, that does not mean that you can't handle a sports car.


This is perhaps the best analogy I've ever heard regarding a person's capability of handling other GSD's vs Working Line GSD's. Anyone can do it if they have the gumption to do so.

In the end it's all up to you jupitergirl. It sounds to me like you're jumping the gun a bit though. Getting a few more opinions I don't think will help you in making the decision. Do you want him? If the answer is yes then I don't see what all the hoopla is about. You seemed to be handling him well before people started throwing the words "Real Deal" around lol

Personally I'm glad to see that you are so interested in your dogs welfare, it's refreshing. 

Also just a note, I _believe_ (don't know for sure) that military dogs don't begin any training till they are evaluated at 7 months. Maybe your dog didn't pass this evaluation and that's why he's in your care. He has come into your life for a reason, if I were you I'd give it a go and see how far the two of you can make it. You never know until you try.

P.S I would really love to see a picture of your boy


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## jupitergirl

*Met the REAL "real deal" & he's Vietnam Vet "BOB"*

UPDATE - AND HALLELUJIAH!

Okay - now that I am calm (after my first good night's sleep in weeks)... I finally I have a grip and everything is going to be okay - and our dog is going to be JUST FINE. 

That's the short version of the story. I think I found a cool Dog trainer/Vietnam Vet with 40+ years experience training working dogs. He doesn't give a rip about breeding. And he thinks I will be able to handle my dog just fine! 

If you're in need of amusement - here's the longer story of our THIRD evaluation. And, if you like - you can weigh-in on whether he sounds good to you. He's definitely DIFFERENT from anyone I've seen. I like him. But you guys have probably seen a lot of trainers. In my whole life, I've only met about 10 of them.

Anyway, This one was totally different. 
(As I mentioned, I was headed to a no b.s. Cajun, giddy to meet this mostly untrained ball of fur and teeth - other evaluators had made such a fuss about.)

Bob is also a Vietnam Veteran, whose been training dogs for 40+ years.
Bob's Alpha presence is pretty obvious, even to the untrained eye. He's huge. He's battle-scarred. He's obviously tough as nails, but he seems gentle, too. Seems nice. 

"WHO said that dog is too much for you?" Bob demanded.
"Umm... some people who were looking at his build and think he's East German and other East Europe stuff, " I answered (already feeling stupid).

"Yeah... I remember way back, with the police and everybody started importing those dogs. Then, they got here and some folks, even cops, didn't know how to train them," Bob reminisced.
"But you did?"
"Yeah. They're dogs. That's what I do." 
"Oh, I see. Well this one sometimes - out of the blue - shows dominant tendencies, especially toward my 16 year old daughter. "
"Yeah. That's gonna stop. You want him to obey? To trust him around your kids and their friends?" 
"..Yes, please?"
"Good. Let's get to work."

Bob's specialty is spending months training high-priced protection dogs to live with families. Bob understands that it wasn't my intention to have a "protection" dog (beyond a normal dog's instinct to protect his family. -- In my neighborhood, any fat yellow lab with a mild curiosity about prowlers is AMPLE protection. Apparently, our criminals are either really stupid or not very determined, which suits me fine). 

Bob also helps cops - who's K9 partners suddenly start acting weird around their family members (usually from PTSD-like stuff and other bad experiences while in the kennel, away from their partners). Bob has some pretty strong references. 

But he's like absolutely NOTHING you'll find in suburban dog training offices. In fact, after about 20 minutes - I was pretty resolved to cozy up to a bonfire of recently purchaces books on dominant dogs/behavioral-theory/ breed-insight/training.. you name it, I bought it. 

Real Deal Dog?
Bob's take: "Huh.. looks Shepherd. Color is wrong. He whines like a Husky. Acts like a chocolate lab who was a kind of a pain, a few years back. But this one is much easier than THAT one. I don't know. It'll be cool to find out, when you get that DNA test back. But he's okay. He's just a dog. Kinda whiney. I don't really care. Do you care?"
"Not really," I say. "I thought he was a lab/shepherd mix. I've never seen a short-haired liver coat."
"Cool. So we don't care, and we treat him like a big puppy who needs to learn how to behave."
"Cool."
"But I have to test his temperament. I need to handle him. I won't hurt him at all.. but need to find out what might set him off. I don't want any surprises with your kids."
"Okay" (but I'm thinking this test sounds potentially dangerous to Bob. Nobody has ever offered to do this before. I guess after facing the Viet Cong - this does NOT seem like a serious danger).

Then he goes through a series of tests for a long time - involving some very loud noise and commands and marching around and having the dog jump up on things and then down and then back up and round and round again. The dog was seriously intimidated by Alpha Bob. My dog seemed to get that he was in the principal's office. It was not a comfortable experience for the dog, but not painful. It became clear to me, however - that nothing I'd ever done in the way of correction, came even close to establishing myself - with this dog - as a real-deal leader.

After about an hour - Bob gave his verdict, "This dog isn't vicious. He's not dangerous. He's confused." 
"Confused? Really? I think he knows EXACTLY what you're asking him to do, and he's choosing not to do it." 
"Right. He's confused." 
"Oh." (confused - as in, the dog has no idea these commands (which he understands fully) are truly non-negotiable? And that he's playing with his future by challenging me? I think that's what Bob means. )

When we leave, the dog is looking so grateful to have me at the end of the leash.. he's ready to sign a full confession to any wrongdoing. He looks unaffected by the stress - but very happy to be with me. Will we see backlash at home? I was worried. But I DIDN'T SEE ANY. HE WAS BETTER BEHAVED AND LESS INTIMIDATING ALL NIGHT! EVEN WITH THE KIDS!" 
-- But we're going back tomorrow to start from square one with Bob (except the loose leash part. he's got that down from me). 

So what do you think??? I mean - I'm glad no one from PETA was in the room.. but he was not harmed and didn't seem to suffer post-psychological distress or anything.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!


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## blueangele

sounds like you have a good trainer on your hands. I wish we had some where I live, and despite all the negative that can happen on these boards (truly, I get a lot of good advice, but there are several people on here who can go be 'expert opinion' to down right rude)you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and want to do whats right for your dog. You will know after a few lessons with Bob if this dog will be good in your home or not. Hopefully he will also do lessons with the kids and husband as things progress. I really hope you can get a picture up of him, he sounds really pretty


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## SuperG

Hopefully, the comments "...But he's okay. He's just a dog. Kinda whiney. I don't really care. Do you care?" and " .... So we don't care, and we treat him like a big puppy who needs to learn how to behave.".....makes great sense to you. Not sure who said that but if you subscribe or said either of those comments....you've taken a big step in the proper direction versus the previous path you were headed down, all uptight about some uber special ops dog. Sounds like Bob is steering you in the proper direction regarding your prior concerns.

Post a pic of the pup please.


SuperG


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## Bella67

liver color?


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## Nikitta

Bob sounds like he is a great trainer. Good for you for finding him. I wish he lived in my area of the country just so I could watch him work.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Great! If I could hear your voice as you typed that, I am sure I would hear some new-found confidence and determination. These are the things most of us were trying to tell you. I think you have found just the right person to help you and your family and, last but not least, your dog, lol. Please post some pictures of him, we love pictures!

Um, pictures of your dog, but from your description of Bob, we might enjoy pictures of him, too! 

Susan


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## shepherdmom

I second that. Pictures please. We all love pictures.


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## SteelHelix

I wish I could find someone like Bob around my area!


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## kelliewilson

Sounds like your going to have a wonderful dog !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jupitergirl

*Finally posted a few photos!!!*

I hear you! The "Bobs" of the world are not easy to find. He's an hour away, and I still consider myself lucky.
Whooda thunk It would take three tries - before someone said, "yup. Dog needs training. It'll be fine. See ya thursday." ?


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## jupitergirl

*Thanks, Kellie!*



kelliewilson said:


> Sounds like your going to have a wonderful dog !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It finally does sound like it! What a relief.


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## jupitergirl

*To STEVE STROM*

TO Steve - 
You asked a question in Private messages about Bob the trainer: 

This site wont let me reply directly - because I havent posted enough?

Anyway, yes! Its Bob Smith K9.


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## misslesleedavis1

Yey! 
Great news,


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## Steve Strom

jupitergirl said:


> TO Steve -
> You asked a question in Private messages about Bob the trainer:
> 
> This site wont let me reply directly - because I havent posted enough?
> 
> Anyway, yes! Its Bob Smith K9.


I don't know him, but I watched a couple of his videos. Just watching him handle a couple of dogs, I get the impression that he has hands on experience with dogs and understands what will help you with this dog. Have fun with your new pup.


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## kelbonc

Olaf is gorgeous!!  Good luck training with Bob, your new trainer. Sounds like you found a great training match for yourself and Olaf. Enjoy!!!


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## newlie

jupiter, i see where you said you posted a few pictures, where are they? I don't see them...


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## kelbonc

newlie said:


> jupiter, i see where you said you posted a few pictures, where are they? I don't see them...


Newlie they are in the Photo Gallery.


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## Jax08

I'm going with over-sized purebred solid liver.

It's not a recessive gene in "black" GSDs. It's just a recessive gene in the breed. It can be in all patterns. 

He's handsome!


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## misslesleedavis1

Handsome!


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## blueangele

those yellow eyes make him look so intense...the one with the leashes the looks say "yeah???"


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## SuperG

Caramel eyes looks great.

SuperG


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## N Smith

Bob Fox by chance?


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## onyx'girl

N Smith said:


> Bob Fox by chance?


thankfully no;




jupitergirl said:


> TO Steve -
> You asked a question in Private messages about Bob the trainer:
> 
> This site wont let me reply directly - because I havent posted enough?
> 
> Anyway, yes! Its Bob Smith K9.


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## royals17

Wow, he's got quite an intense face. Pretty eyes. Looks like a liver to me, and purebred. That's just me.


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## DutchKarin

Wow, there is a lot here. Did not read it all but if you are still looking for someone to evaluate him contact Les Flores of De Las Flores Kennels in Richfield WA. He runs Cascade Schutzhund club is a former K9 law enforcement officer and can evaluate any dog.


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## Pretzels

He's a gorgeous dog! Wow! Love those light eyes! I could definitely see him being part lab (that's what I would guess, given the color and that he seems to be built a little bulky like a lab). Just so handsome!!!


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## newlie

Thanks, Kelbonc!

He is a beautiful boy!


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## SuperG

You know the best part about the evolution of this entire thread and where it currently is....you and the dog have a great hands on mentoring opportunity which might allow your pup to become uber doggy......go for it, it'll only get better.

SuperG


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## jupitergirl

*Thanks!*

Thanks for all the (unexpected) compliments about his looks!

It's nice to hear, since 99 percent of people who see us - do a WIDE circle to avoid us. 

Strange since he looks well behaved, on a loose leash - and not barking. (the leashes he's destroyed (see photo)- died a quiet death in the privacy of our home. And this only happened when a trainer recommended we keep him on a leash at home for a while, as a "communication tool." I guess communication works both ways  )

Anyway, out in public, only the MOST enthusiastic German Shepherd (and Chocolate Lab) lovers -- walk TOWARD us for a quick smooch (from him, not me  ).

Thanks for the clarification on the recessive gene "liver color." It's all been a great education. I'm building confidence, and he's making friends. One nice officer (k9 unit) we met - is giving us tips on joining a local Schutzhund club. Happy days!


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## Jax08

Get used to the 'wide circle'. lol I was in a hotel last weekend with mine sitting quietly beside me. A woman walked in and looked like she was going to pass out. She wouldn't even walk near us.


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## GypsyGhost

Yeah, we already get the wide circle and Bash is only six months old! Best of luck to you in your adventure with your dog!


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## misslesleedavis1

Jax08 said:


> Get used to the 'wide circle'. lol I was in a hotel last weekend with mine sitting quietly beside me. A woman walked in and looked like she was going to pass out. She wouldn't even walk near us.


Andrew and I walked our 3 through a parking lot while the fair was in town last summer, this woman came around the corner, looked at them and burst into tears. Poor lady must have had super high anxiety and fear over dogs.


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## Jax08

I try to be respectful of a person's fear. But sometimes I just want to reach out and smack them. The woman at the hotel was that person this weekend.


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## Bella67

Jax08 said:


> I try to be respectful of a person's fear. But sometimes I just want to reach out and smack them..


I agree.  People think that they will go and attack you but in reality the complete opposite. It's the people that give this breed a bad rep. /:


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## Jax08

Bella67 said:


> I agree.  People think that they will go and attack you but in reality the complete opposite. It's the people that give this breed a bad rep. /:


Well, it really had nothing to do with that at all.

She had plenty of room to go around us and I had already waved her through while I was holding him on a short leash. 

I'm not a fan of theatrics.


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## blueangele

no one gives me a wide berth, I guess white German Sheperds aren't all the intimidating. I have yet to have someone NOT come up to us, and I have to make them stop because Z likes people, but only when they are slow to come up to him (except for kids, he LOVES kids to run around with)


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## misslesleedavis1

Jax08 said:


> I try to be respectful of a person's fear. But sometimes I just want to reach out and smack them. The woman at the hotel was that person this weekend.


Me too! Especially when they are educating me on the dangers on owning a GSD while their little dogs trying to leap out of their arms to take my face off


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## Pretzels

Haha, Dont be offended about the whole "wide berth" thing... Comes with the breed.  I personally appreciate when people either avoid, ignore, or ask if they can pet my guy vs just rushing over and smushing his face... Although my pup is still ridiculously friendly and puppy like, so he gets a lot of smiles, even if people respectfully give him space (probably more due to my body language than anything else actually lol)


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## DaniFani

never mind


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## Mamie

Dear JupiterGirl,
I understand the predicament you're in. I adopted a 7 week old beautiful male from a cop I know- and this boy became my Heart dog folks talk of. At just over a year old, he was too much for me, as my bod wasn't strong enough to hold his massive strength back from simple walks [that high prey drive] and, yes, we'd passed 2 obedience classes. A training collar? Meant Nothing. I have horses, and a "simple walk" outside our property on the road meant my being pulled down because I couldn't hold him back from a bunny sighting. This was a huge male, and slender, at that. AT least 100 lbs. His Eastern europeanness meant he was bred to be working, and I wasn't strong enough to hold him. So I paid my obedience person $2k to train him to the electric collar. That was a joke. For heaven's sake, it was like being pulled by a horse, at a moment's notice. My trainer took him, and I've not stopped grieving since, although my head tells me I couldn't handle him. He was too strong for my husband, either. And I'd raised him, working with him 20 hours a day. No kidding. I pray your problem has resolved itself- Mamie


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## wyoung2153

Very lovely thread  First thread I have read in a while that was more than 1 or 2 pages without a hint of negativity and put downs, reminded me why I joined this forum years and years ago. 

JupiterGirl, I am so excited to read about your progress!! I love how you tell your story too, so detailed and like we are actually there. You sounds very dedicated to your new pup and that's so wonderful to read about. He is gorgeous! Intimidating stare, but you know he's a lovable guy, lol. 

I too wish there were more "Bobs" in the world.. or at least readily available! Your boy sounds very similar to my boy who I thought was a show line but turns out his blood runs into working as well.. and he got that gene. A lot of dog when not trained and "worked." Worked just meaning exercised physically and mentally, daily. The times I called my mom crying (literally tears of frustration) because I couldn't go any longer and Titan still had so much energy to run off when he was a pup, were numbered.. lol. I had to learn him and also set boundaries and rules for him. 

You got this! You are going to be so proud of yourself and him (and thankful to Bob) that you put the work into him. He sounds awesome and like he's going to be an excellent dog.. not to mention he is seriously beautiful!! More pictures are always welcome  

Oh and embrace the circle of avoidance. You will appreciate it in the future.


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## llombardo

I got a laugh at what some people have done when they see these dogs. Robyn got that when she hit about 7 months. The funniest place was at the pet store. The lady turned the corner, saw her and flew out of the aisle. It was just odd because we were in a pet store, in an aisle for dog things, so the woman had dogs, knew dogs would be in the store and still bolted. 

Kids on the other hand don't ever seem to be afraid and are always approaching, sometimes with the parents running behind them screaming not to touch the dog. At that point mine are already giving the kid kisses looking at the parents like they are idiots.


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## jupitergirl

*Here's the Update (on training boot camp!)*

I thought I'd update, for anyone interested!
(and this is also for lady who adopted dog from cop, because I really understand where you're coming from)

Bob, the Ragin' Cajun, Vietnam Vet trainer -- is pretty amazing. Although, because my dog is more about DRIVE than aggression, I am taking a slower route to the obedience-goal than his usual clients want/need. I'll explain in a minute. But first - details on him, if you're in a desperate situation for aggression issues:

His company is Bob Smith K9 - If you're at your wits end over aggression and dominance - he's the guy for you. (and not just GSD owners). It would be worth taking a road/air trip and spend a week or two near his studio, and work with him every day for a few hours. Your hotel/meals will cost more than he'll charge you. If you're in a desperate place, it's SO worth it.

After our first few lessons, I realized that my 12 month old dog has a lot of drive, adolescent stubbornness, need for mental stimulation - the usual stuff... but compared to other owners, I was NOT dealing with a dominance/aggression case at all. So - while Bob's technique is incredibly helpful for getting a situation under control very FAST.. I can afford to take it a little slower and evaluate day-by-day. 

And I have one special reason for not going too fast now. Remember when I was freaking out, and contacted officer friends with the K9 unit? Well, they came out to see my dog and really liked him. Since I'd found Amazing Bob, I was less desperate for my dog to find a full-time job somewhere (like with the Foreign Legion). 

I told the officers (with a very well-respected unit) that we're okay.. no need to rescue me or the dog. But since they were there, they started checking him out for bite work, interest in finding-the-bad-guy games.. stuff like that. And he did well enough -- that they want to work with him some more, for further evaluation.

Of course, if he does really well... he'll have a new life somewhere else, which would be sad for my family. But I'm giving him the shot at it - because.. and this is the hard part to describe: when he started playing with the cops, he lit up like a Christmas tree. Doing the stuff they wanted to do - was like waking up and smiling for the first time in his young life. Plus, he fell in love with them.. like he was meeting Superman and Batman, and wanted to follow them to the ends of the earth. He was so HAPPY. "Happy" doesn't even begin to describe it. There are no words for the joy I could see in this dog - doing cop-training stuff. I felt a little jealous. And then, when they left.. he whined at the door for HOURS, hoping his new best friends would be coming back any minute.

Anyway, I'm going to just take it day by day and see how it unfolds. Very few dogs are selected for this kind of work. I'm sure that chances are, he won't make the cut, but they're looking at him for possible patrol work. If he doesn't make the cut, no problem. My kids will be elated, and we'll join a Schutzhund club. If he makes the cut, I'm not going to deny his shot at working for hours every day - doing the stuff he loves. So we'll just see.

For this reason, I am holding off a bit on going the hard-core, quick route to total obedience route. K9 units have their own way of using a dog's drive to reach their goal -- and I don't want to mess anything up. So - Bob and I are training almost daily - but with a goal of weekly progress. I have read that you can push a dog (especially adolescent) too hard, too fast. 

If I have more time, I'll give the more animated versions of the cop-evaluation and Bob lessons soon. They're pretty funny moments I'll never forget. But right now, I'm spending two hours driving and two hours training every day (plus my full time job). So - wherever this goes.. it certainly won't be on a whim. Life, no matter what, is going to be very good for my dog. And for me, too. I have learned SO MUCH. And I'm no where near done! 
I'll keep you posted!


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## DaniFani

There are other trainers and department that feel very differently about his "training." That's great you love him, buT its not surprising you have been told to take a slower and longer process. Everyone has their own flavor of trainer they like, I certainly wouldn't say he's worth flYing to see. Like I said, glad he's great for you, but his reputation amongst law enforcement and many that work with problem dogs is. ....interesting. I'm talking more than Internet hype, I know people he has bought, sold, and trained dogs for. ...he's among the lines of kraftwerk in his local reputation.


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## DaniFani

Ugh, sorry....you seem like a nice lady/man OP. But you also seem pretty emotional and easily impressed (believed everything each new trainer/evaluator told you) and are very romantic in your ideas. Just remember there are trainers out there that put on a great show and really scam people out of serious money. That take dogs that have been "washed" and sell them for big money to people that don't know any better and don't know what "real" means, and that there are lots of dogs out there that meet the same "realness. " There are also lots of trainers that will take anyone's money and do "protection training" when they see a starry eyed new customer that thinks they have the next best thing. Just be careful and really listen and look with open eyes. Good luck!


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## jupitergirl

Point taken, DaniFani. I'm sure you know what you're talking about. And like I said, I am taking a slower, more methodical route to training than Bob's usual clients. (many of them seem like they were on the brink of taking dogs to shelter or putting down, due to aggression). 

I am not going to take anything you say personally - or get negative at all. And I'm not saying (any more) that my dog is special. He's an ordinary working-line dog. And this is all going to work out fine, no matter what. 
I may be easily impressed with peoples' skills - but there's one thing I never fall for: a one-size-fits-all approach. I'm unique and so is my dog. We are going to take this journey one step at a time - thoughtfully - and eventually we will get where we need to go. Do I need assistance? Yes, and yes. And -- it can be very difficult to find trainers who are not intimidated, helping someone with their big GSD. I think that is one reason so many people say, "Why can't I find a 'BOB' in my town?" I'm sure there are lots of great trainers - but if they're unwilling work with you and your dog, they're not much help. So - I hear the frustration. There are also a lot of techniques that are awesome for a labradoodle - that just don't quite do it for a smart GSD. That's been my experience, anyway. 

But - I get - and take - your point. Peace out


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## Bella67

Is Bob a breeder too?


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## llombardo

All those things that he loves to do canbe done with you for fun. I don't care who came and looked at the dog, he is yours and IMO should stay that way.


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## DaniFani

Bella67 said:


> Is Bob a breeder too?


I don't know that he actually whelps out litters, but he definitely helps with the selling of lots of litters, "started dogs," and "trained protection dogs." He's into Cane Corso's big time, mali's, and some others...awhile back I heard he was also into pitbull/bulldog mixes.


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## Bella67

Yeah after I just skimmed through his website, it seemed like he was advertising 3 different breeds.


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## DaniFani

Bella67 said:


> Yeah after I just skimmed through his website, it seemed like he was advertising 3 different breeds.


Yeah, last year he would have several mali and cane corso litters at a time up for sale. 3/4 week old puppies "tested by Bob."


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## misslesleedavis1

DaniFani said:


> Yeah, last year he would have several mali and cane corso litters at a time up for sale. 3/4 week old puppies "tested by Bob."


I see cane Corso's in protection training alot on a few sights I frequent, people swear by them. What's your thoughts?


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## Anubis_Star

We had a cane Corso in our club for a while. Sweetest dog OFF his property, but go near his truck or his house and he would kill you if given the chance. Slow on his obedience work, just not the drive there, but impressive enough during his protection just because of his size and deep bark haha


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## misslesleedavis1

There's a guy in the club local to me that works a Russian terrier, he swears by it- best dog he has had. Then there is one guy that went all the way to Europe to pick himself up a doberman for schutzhund, very pretty dog.


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## Stonevintage

jupitergirl said:


> Point taken, DaniFani. I'm sure you know what you're talking about. And like I said, I am taking a slower, more methodical route to training than Bob's usual clients. (many of them seem like they were on the brink of taking dogs to shelter or putting down, due to aggression).
> 
> I am not going to take anything you say personally - or get negative at all. And I'm not saying (any more) that my dog is special. He's an ordinary working-line dog. And this is all going to work out fine, no matter what.
> I may be easily impressed with peoples' skills - but there's one thing I never fall for: a one-size-fits-all approach. I'm unique and so is my dog. We are going to take this journey one step at a time - thoughtfully - and eventually we will get where we need to go. Do I need assistance? Yes, and yes. And -- it can be very difficult to find trainers who are not intimidated, helping someone with their big GSD. I think that is one reason so many people say, "Why can't I find a 'BOB' in my town?" I'm sure there are lots of great trainers - but if they're unwilling work with you and your dog, they're not much help. So - I hear the frustration. There are also a lot of techniques that are awesome for a labradoodle - that just don't quite do it for a smart GSD. That's been my experience, anyway.
> 
> But - I get - and take - your point. Peace out


I get what your doing too. Awesome journey! As I've been PM's many times - don't let the negative (experts) get you down - their marching to their own drummer. If you respond to them at all to justify your actions - you will get labeled "defensive". 

You have reached out so far for this dog, you are an amazing person. I hope you continue to get as much out of this life experience as you have so far. Please continue the posts - you had many of us from day one, great writing skills - Thanks!


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## misfits

Just another vote to have you keep posting, really enjoying and learning from this thread.


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## MacD

Hello Jupitergirl, 

I just want to tell you how much I have enjoyed your posts and your wonderful way of responding to all who post in this thread. I only wish I was as elegant in web interactions. 

I am happy for the dog you took in .. he is fortunate ... please keep sharing your journey with him as I am hooked


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## wyoung2153

How's your pup today? Training going well this week?


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## huntergreen

any update!


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