# Straight Back Breeders?



## khrawal (Mar 23, 2015)

Hello everyone! 

Does someone know of any "straight-back" pure breeders in Illinois / Wisconsin / Indiana area(s)? Now dear wife and our 4 kids want a straight back male pup, with preferably black-silver color. 

Any suggestions would be deeply appreciated.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

E mail Robin from the Royalair Shepherds website.She can point you in the right direction.Just Google it,my stupid computer won't do links today


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

^ Don't do that.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

she breed's oversized dogs. I wouldn't email her either. There is no such thing as an old fashioned GSD.

edit: was just looking at her site, she stated one of her males was rated excellent from OFA. I looked him up, he was rated fair. Red flag for me.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Perhaps you would be happier with a Shiloh shepherd? 

I don't think you will find a good breeder that sells 'straight back' black/silver German Shepherds. These generally are not qualities serious breeders seek in their breeding program.

Qualities to look for would be OFA hip testing, working and competing the dogs in venues such as agility, herding, Schutzhund and conformation venues.

There are some good threads about what to look for in a good breeder, at the top of this forum.






khrawal said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> Does someone know of any "straight-back" pure breeders in Illinois / Wisconsin / Indiana area(s)? Now dear wife and our 4 kids want a straight back male pup, with preferably black-silver color.
> 
> Any suggestions would be deeply appreciated.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Out of curiosity I also looked up the OFA results for the two males on Royalair's site that claim "excellent" hips.They are indeed excellent,the E is there in their OFA reg.numbers.Maybe you made a mistake somehow?

Anyway, if the op wants a blk/slv Gsd Robin may know of a breeder in his area.OP just make sure to research carefully the breeders you're interested in.Health and temperament are #1


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Just going to throw this out there, for when you're looking at dogs. Here's a snippet of the breed standard, talking about the structure of the neck, back, and croup (the spot where the back, hips, and base of tail all connect).



> *Neck – *The neck should be strong, well-muscled and without loose neck skin (dewlap). The angulation towards the trunk (horizontal) amounts to approx. 45 %.
> *Body – **The upper line *runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad,  short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.


What this all boils down to, is that although you ARE looking for a straight back, you're also looking for a nice, smooth transition between neck, back, and tail. This results in a dog that has nice, flowing curves to its structure. If you were to draw a line down the neck, across the back, and down the tail, you wouldn't have a single hard edge.

The thing you need to consider about this is that ANY dog with even remotely correct angling in the rear legs is going to look like it has a sloped back when it's stacked. You're pulling a leg forward, which is changing the look of the dog. Even the same dog can look completely different depending on how it's stacked. So a dog with a very moderate structure can look really exaggerated, or a dog with an extreme roach can look more straight. What you REALLY want to look at is the dog standing free, if you're not accustomed to looking at stacked pictures. Even better if you can see the dogs move. Then you can get a really good idea of whether the dog is structurally sound.

The thing with breeders talking about "Old fashioned structure" is that it's a gimmick, just like any other marketing ploy. It's equivalent of breeding only for a specific color. You want to find someone breeding to standard, breeding to improve the health and structure of their lines, breeding for temperament, etc. I read your other post, you're honestly going to be better off looking for show line breeders than someone selling "Old Fashioned" shepherds.

With your other post in mind, have you looked at Alta Tollhaus yet? They're up in Michigan. I've seen some of their dogs working in person, they're beautifully sound, and their temperaments are very clear-headed. It's possible a working line from the right place with the right person evaluating temperament could work, as well, but you haven't mentioned much about what you're looking for in a dog, so that can be up in the air. 

When you're looking at what dog is right for you, here's a great article about the different lines and their pros and cons. Keep in mind that it's written from a working line breeder, but although she spends a great deal on why that's the line she's chosen, she also doesn't hold back on the short comings of the line, mainly the energy level and that they really need to be engaged in some sort of activity more than the other lines do (generally speaking):
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

I'd say more than looking at structure and color right off, really sit and evaluate what you're looking for in a dog. What sort of temperament, what activities are you planning on doing, what's your plan for exercise, etc. When you pin down your routine, you'll find out what temperament best suits it. After that, THEN you start looking at breeders and the structure of their dogs. No matter what line, you're going to find breeders who are over the top exaggerated, and you're going to find nice, moderate dogs. But the temperament fitting into your home should be your priority.

Good luck, keep us updated with your search!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I second contacting Robin of Royalair. I have two of her GSDs & couldn't be happier. My 3rd GSD was also from Royalair & lived a couple months past her 13th birthday. They've all been structurally sound, healthy, robust, biddable, uber stable & with terrific personalities as well as solid temperaments. 

Her GSDs aren't everyone's cuppa but it sounds like they might suit you perfectly.

Be aware that while Robin gets a lot of criticism, it's almost always from people that don't know her dogs, & have little to no experience with them. Those that have Royalair GSDs, live with them & train them, are overwhelmingly happy with their choice. Many return for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th GSD.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol...this is a pet breeder not a place to go if you want working qualities.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

And did the OP say they want a "working dog??" Some people want "pets."


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

My mistake, I assumed if you wanted a german shepherd it was for the inherent working qualities that "should" be present.

By all means go with the ByB...the crappy temperment threads have been getting quiet lately they could use more traffic. 

Ill even supply some potential titles:

Protective or Fearful?

My puppy is scared of everything!

Dog bit my kid, HELP!

Fido is walking funny, what should I do?

Will he protect me?

Allergies, oh no!

Schutzhund??

I want to breed my straight back GSD !!!




Supportive enough for you


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

It's true- you didn't at all ask for Shiloh breeders, however- someone did mention it and looking closer, you asked for a straight backed, black and silver, dog well suited for 4 kids. *IF* you wanted to entertain the notion of a Shiloh, this breeder is a friend of mine and has absolutely exceptional dogs. I did a week long dog sitting for one of her 1 year old pups and it was a very enjoyable experience. If you haven't researched them- you might add them to your list. I could imagine a truly wonderful fit with four kids...

Straight backed, black and silver-- like this?








Echo Shiloh's - Shiloh Shepherds - Home

Breeder is in Indianapolis.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> My mistake, I assumed if you wanted a german shepherd it was for the inherent working qualities that "should" be present.
> 
> By all means go with the ByB...the crappy temperment threads have been getting quiet lately they could use more traffic.
> 
> ...


Yep and a "real" GSD just took down an 80 year old lady! 


The OP said "Four Kids" and a "Straight back" seriously does that sound like someone looking for an IPO dog??


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Yep and a "real" GSD just took down an 80 year old lady!
> 
> 
> The OP said "Four Kids" and a "Straight back" seriously does that sound like someone looking for an IPO dog??


My working line, IPO dog is an AMAZING pet and best friends with my 4 yr old niece. Of course because he isn't necessarily discouraged from jumping on people due to his sport training, he wasn't allowed around her until he was 2 or so because he did jump alot.

But this misconception that "sport" dogs or "working line" dogs can't make good pets is just ridiculous! You know what makes a good pet? A sound, stable, well bred, versatile dog. Berlin is sport trained so is a little different, but the majority of his litter mates are in pet only homes and are thriving. I have pictures of his brother with little kids from day 1.

Straight back is often another misconception from people not necessarily educated in the breed structure, because they're often scared from the health stigma of "sloped back" show lines. Although a well bred shepherd should have a "straight" back, it should not have the harsh angles and be parallel to the ground. It should flow into a slightly sloping croup. Breeders that advertise "straight back, old fashioned dogs" are the ones that should be avoided.

I know it's been beat to death lately, but the German shepherd is a WORKING breed and should remain as such! A trained, exercised, stimulated working line is perfectly capable of making an excellent family pet! But to water down the breed because you can't handle what it's suppose to be is only detrimental to the breed.

In my experience, a poorly bred shepherd is one prone to health and especially temperament problems. I've already euthanized one BYB dog due to aggression issues and lost the other BYB dog to cancer at a younger age. My well bred working line is night and day in comparison to the majority of shepherds I deal with in my professional career and personal life


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> My working line, IPO dog is an AMAZING pet and best friends with my 4 yr old niece.


Here we go again....

I'm sure he is an Amazing pet for you! How many kids do you have again? How do you think he would do with a houseful of kids over for a slumber party. Kids just walking in and out of your house whenever they feel like kids playing hide and seek and darting around as kids do? I have had working line shepherds and a family. It can be done. If you have the time and energy to do it right. I was lucky. Many horror stories I see on here tell me others are not so fortunate. 



> In my experience, a poorly bred shepherd is one prone to health and especially temperament problems. I've already euthanized one BYB dog due to aggression issues and lost the other BYB dog to cancer at a younger age. My well bred working line is night and day in comparison to the majority of shepherds I deal with in my professional career and personal life


Why is it always assumed that a shepherd that is not bred from working lines is poorly bred?  

The OP is getting good suggestions on where to look for the type of dog they asked for. Why are IPO dogs even getting thrown into this discussion?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> But this misconception that "sport" dogs or "working line" dogs can't make good pets is just ridiculous!


And who said that??? 



Anubis_Star said:


> Straight back is often another misconception from people not necessarily educated in the breed structure, because they're often scared from the health stigma of "sloped back" show lines. Although a well bred shepherd should have a "straight" back, it should not have the harsh angles and be parallel to the ground. It should flow into a slightly sloping croup. Breeders that advertise "straight back, old fashioned dogs" are the ones that should be avoided.
> 
> I know it's been beat to death lately, but the German shepherd is a WORKING breed and should remain as such! A trained, exercised, stimulated working line is perfectly capable of making an excellent family pet! But to water down the breed because you can't handle what it's suppose to be is only detrimental to the breed.


Yes and not "everyone" needs the real thing! Those are the folks that would be better off with a Shilo or a King! They look like the real deal but are not! If you don't get those dogs...don't get one! 

The shelters are full of "real" GSD's why add more??



Anubis_Star said:


> In my experience, a poorly bred shepherd is one prone to health and especially temperament problems. I've already euthanized one BYB dog due to aggression issues


Well good for you. My human aggressive, High Rank drive (OS WL rescue) GSD with "faulty temperament" was "rehabbed" by me.

My dog did not get a needle instead he got training, leadership and management. 

And this is what he did after my hard work:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/4881481-post1.html

So "I" get real GSD's but not everyone needs one, wants one or is equipped to deal with the real deal, when there perfect pups goes sideways on them! 

If there was not a need to be filled there would be no Shilo's or Kings. Yes GSD's are real "Working Dogs." Shilo's and Kings are pets, that is there job. Constantly bad mouthing them and insulting those dogs and there owners does not make them cease to exist.

The world is full of White Boxers and American Band Dawgs also, you can't put the cork back in the bottle. Get on board or get run over is the way I roll.
Just saying.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

They should just make working lines and non working lines two different breeds already so people can stop bickering.

Every dog can be raised correctly and be ok in various situations. But some are genetically better suited for better success with a certain owner/family.

Selective breeding is just about choosing a dog that better suits your lifestyle and better suits what you offer the dog in training management etc.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> And who said that???
> 
> Yes and not "everyone" needs the real thing! Those are the folks that would be better off with a Shilo or a King! They look like the real deal but are not! If you don't get those dogs...don't get one!
> 
> ...


A shiloh shepherd is not a german shepherd. Neither is a king shepherd. Therefore irrelevant when the OP states they want a purebred, and because they want a pet and have kids YOU implied they should not get a working line because "he doesn't need an ipo dog" when others have simply stated what they feel constitutes a good german shepherd vs. IMHO these scam breeders that advertise "Old fashion, straight back dogs".

I don't like shiloh or king shepherds but never said anything about either "breed", as again they are mutts and NOT german shepherds so I could care less, get what you want.

Outside of having kids, wanting a companion animal, and living in a shadier area therefore they want a dog that may help deter intruders, the OP did not state much regarding their desires for the dog or activity level. I would not automatically think "oh yeah, you want a pet, forget a german shepherd, get one of these other dogs" 

In fact if they are willing to learn, which I assume they are because they're asking for advice, and they want a stable pet, and they want a dog that will likely be a bit less social so as not to greet every stranger at the fence with a wagging tail, and they have an active lifestyle, a working line may be much better suited for them than a softer king or shiloh shepherd!

Working lines can make great pets with the right family, I agree there are many that should NOT own a german shepherd in general. Instead of detering people away, educate them so they can make their own decisions based on if they think it's the right dog for them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> A shiloh shepherd is not a german shepherd. Neither is a king shepherd.


Hence the phrase "looks like."




Anubis_Star said:


> YOU implied they should not get a working line because...


Not sure I did that? If I did I stand corrected!




Anubis_Star said:


> "he doesn't need an ipo dog" when others have simply stated what they feel constitutes a good german shepherd vs. IMHO these scam breeders that advertise "Old fashion, straight back dogs"


And yet again with the insults and the IPO, lots of "Pet People" don't care...the phrase, "working homes only comes to mind"!



Anubis_Star said:


> want a dog that will likely be a bit less social


Yes I'm sure that is a quality that is high on the list of a family of four??

I should say I'm done here..but instead, I'll add this:
Rosehall Kennel raises large, oversize, straight back, calm tempered, AKC German Shepherd big dogs. GSD puppies for sale.

Now that is a big dog! No IPO, Not a K9, No LE in his future, it's a pet! And all the insults in the world are "not" going to make them go away 

And no most likely not a true "GSD" either but you'd need a DNA test to prove it!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> And who said that???


sheperdmom did

I'm sure he is an Amazing pet for you! How many kids do you have again? How do you think he would do with a houseful of kids over for a slumber party. Kids just walking in and out of your house whenever they feel like kids playing hide and seek and darting around as kids do? I have had working line shepherds and a family. It can be done. If you have the time and energy to do it right. I was lucky. Many horror stories I see on here tell me others are not so fortunate. 





Chip18 said:


> Well good for you. My human aggressive, High Rank drive (OS WL rescue) GSD with "faulty temperament" was "rehabbed" by me.
> 
> My dog did not get a needle instead he got training, leadership and management.


As someone who had to euthanize an OS, poorly bred, horribly aggressive young dog I take offense to this. You should be more sensitive. Not all dogs are able to be rehabbed, some are just wired wrong. For those of us who have to make that decision it's very painful.


For the record, my WL male does not particularly enjoy children, but he has lived with them and he is fine with them. He would never hurt a small child. He is also much better with other dogs and animals in general then my other dog. He is watchful and alert but not as nuts as Shadow and way easier to manage.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My WL ADORES kids. Actually he adores all 2 legged beings  haha



As far as euthanzing aggressive dogs - I have pictures saved in a hidden folder on my phone of my mangled cat's body to remind me, every time I miss my luther and get sick to my stomach and am overcome with guilt, of why I did what I did. A dog with a bite history and stress colitis that was only manageable in the confines of my home until the day he could no longer be managed even in my home. BUT that is a topic that is really neither here nor there and completely off subject 

Obviously each person is interpreting the OPs needs differently. Besides a family pet that will deter intruders, is purebred, and is good around kids in the home, what else is truly desired? Activity level, training, extra activities, etc?

BTW a dog that is not social is NOT the same as a dog that should not be with kids. That dog will likely love it's family to the end - but a dog doesn't need to love strangers. It just needs to behave around them and tolerate them in appropriate situations.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Yep and a "real" GSD just took down an 80 year old lady!
> 
> *What?*
> 
> The OP said "Four Kids" and a "Straight back" seriously does that sound like someone looking for an IPO dog??


Who said anything about IPO? What do you know about IPO dogs?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What is "high rank drive"?

I've never heard that term.

Must be something to do with dominance theory I'm thinking...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

For **** sake. This is why I almost never post here any more. You people need to take a chill pill. Same old **** on this forum- WL vs SL squabbles. Stupid.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Anubis_Star said:


> But this misconception that "sport" dogs or "working line" dogs can't make good pets is just ridiculous! You know what makes a good pet? A sound, stable, well bred, versatile dog.
> 
> I know it's been beat to death lately, but the German shepherd is a WORKING breed and should remain as such! A trained, exercised, stimulated working line is perfectly capable of making an excellent family pet! But to water down the breed because you can't handle what it's suppose to be is only detrimental to the breed.


Thank you!!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WesS said:


> They should just make working lines and non working lines two different breeds already so people can stop bickering.


Should we go for 3 breeds within a breed?

Working line

Showline

Petline


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

wildo said:


> For **** sake. This is why I almost never post here any more. You people need to take a chill pill. Same old **** on this forum- WL vs SL squabbles. Stupid.


It happens over and when people make the statement or imply that a working line dog is not suitable to be in a pet home.


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