# Body Type Question



## Lily_08 (Jan 7, 2009)

Hi all. I have a question that has been bothering me for quite some time, but I cannot seem to get a solid answer from anyone. I have seen many GSDs whose backs slant downward to the rear, and they look like they're squatting when they walk. I have also seen many GSDs who have straight backs with no slant at all (i.e. my 8 mo old female German Shepherd, Lily). What is the cause for this difference. I've heard different stories from many people saying this kind is German, or that kind is American bread. But, I've heard so many conflicting stories, that it's not even funny. Can anyone help me with this question? Thanks.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Actually the 1st dog you described it is not their BACK that slants down it would be because of the rear angulation (of the back legs). This would be from the American Show lines and more than likely an extreme example. 

The second dog would most likely be German Working lines that has less rear angulation. 

The main difference in the appearance comes from the goal of the particular breeder and their specific types of GSD. AM Show lines breed their "correct dogs" (sometimes to the extreme) for the best possible placing in the show ring that features a "flying trot" side gate. The working lines tend to focus on "correct" type of structure for working endeavors such as SCH, Herding, Police work, however, there are a lot of working line breeders that breed for extremes in drive. 

About the only thing faciers of each particular side agrees on is that the other is is "too extreme".


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

There are a variety of types. This is a website that might help...

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

You can also go the Breed Standard Section of this forum and check out 3 threads on movement in the 3 major types.

Working-
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=926162&page=1#Post926162
German Show-
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=951675&page=1#Post951675
North American Show-
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=952189&page=1#Post952189


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## Kurys Mom (Oct 11, 2008)

Hoping it's ok to ask this question here, if not let me know.

Does the angulation then only determine if the dog is working or show lines? Is it the appearance or is there other criteria that determines if the dog is either working or showline? I'm not asking this quite right either but hope you can understand.

I've been confused on this forever and haven't been able to figure it out no matter how much I read. I'd really like to know.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quoteoes the angulation then only determine if the dog is working or show lines?


No. 

Depending on what the breeder is breeding for, that's what determines both look AND temperment (along with alot of health things). If I am breeding GSD's for the Seeing Eye, then that's not the same temperment as I want for a GSD that can herd all day, and chances are I'm trying for a healthy dog and not a specific 'look' other than to the GSD standard (not too large, too small, pointed ears, etc.).

If I am breeding for purely 'show' then GENERALLY it's all about whatever 'look' is popular and the judges are having win. So if it's dogs over 100 pounds, then that's that. Breeding for just for a look isn't the same as breeding just for a dog's work ability. 

Responsible breeders have a goal, keep track of all the dogs they breed, and you can see if they are breeding 'true' to their breeding goals. So if you want an AKC showline, and all the dogs in the pedigree are show champions in the USA, then that was their goal. Chances are these dog would never get a Schutzund title.

Likewise if you are breeding for a great Schutzund dog, and picked a good breeder you could see all the titles on their dogs thru the years in Schutzund. Chances are these dogs would never do well at all in the AKC showring. 

Hey you see the BBC special on Pedigree Dogs Exposed? They talk about GSD's there, it's in the UK though, not the USA.

http://tinyurl.com/6cuz3e


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## Kurys Mom (Oct 11, 2008)

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that to me, I now understand. 

Quite interesting









Haven't seen the show you were asking about.


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## marosmith (Feb 7, 2009)

I would like to add, extreme angulation is only bred by american showline breeders for asthetics (they say it makes a longer stride in a trot), but it is more physically limiting and not a normal canid characteristic. See the wolf as an example.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I also think you should look at some of those dogs that appear to slant down and realize it is the way they have been posed. On their own they will probably stand all 4 feet under them and level back. The reason they are posed like this is to show the angles formed in the back legs. If you take any dog and spread their back legs, one forward and one back and while setting them you teach the dog to bend at the hock, and then hold that position many would then look like they are sloping down. 

Also most show lines are not extreme but more moderate, people look for the most extreme so they can critique it. When Von Stephanitz started the breed he wanted longer than tall, and wanted to create a better trotting dog. Most show line breeders want a dog that can do what it was bred to do, herding. That was the first purpose of the breed and to herd you must be able to move all day at a trot. While I agree many have gone over board I won't say they all have any more than saying all working line dogs are uncontrollable biters, ( That is NOT what I'm saying) I just do not believe in blaming all on what a few are. 

So everyone love your dog. HE/she is THE BEST for you. If you are looking for a dog, research with an open mind and look at all types, talk to as many people as you can and most important get health checks, train, and socialize.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Matt SmithI would like to add, extreme angulation is only bred by american showline breeders for asthetics (they say it makes a longer stride in a trot), but it is more physically limiting and not a normal canid characteristic. See the wolf as an example.


Structurally there are some extreme German Show lines as well. Drive wise there are extreme working lines so no AM lines are not the only extreme dogs out there.


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## marosmith (Feb 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Matt SmithI would like to add, extreme angulation is only bred by american showline breeders for asthetics (they say it makes a longer stride in a trot), but it is more physically limiting and not a normal canid characteristic. See the wolf as an example.
> ...


good point.


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## jmopaso (Nov 27, 2008)

In mostly lurking on several GSD forums, I find (IMO) that there seems to be quite a lot of (for lack of a more descriptive term) "snobbery" around. You see it here and elsewhere as well.

For examples: you see the sentiments in print: In show lines, only "champions' are worthwhile, in working lines, your dogs had better be SCHHIII or you had better go hide under a rock and take your dogs with you. 

Not everyone can be the elite of their group, there are a lot of dogs, humans, horses, etc, etc, who are not amoung the elite of their species, but who still perform a very fine role. It would be nice if some of the elite were are bit nicer towards the not so elite on these forums. There is much to be learned from your experience, if you are willing to share it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: jmogsdIn mostly lurking on several GSD forums, I find (IMO) that there seems to be quite a lot of (for lack of a more descriptive term) "snobbery" around. You see it here and elsewhere as well.
> 
> For examples: you see the sentiments in print: In show lines, only "champions' are worthwhile, in working lines, your dogs had better be SCHHIII or you had better go hide under a rock and take your dogs with you.
> 
> Not everyone can be the elite of their group, there are a lot of dogs, humans, horses, etc, etc, who are not amoung the elite of their species, but who still perform a very fine role. It would be nice if some of the elite were are bit nicer towards the not so elite on these forums. There is much to be learned from your experience, if you are willing to share it.


jmogsd, sorry you saw the thread going that way, towards snobbery and elitest....

I don't necessarily think that's true, that everyone here says you MUST have a champion or top winning Sch dog or your dog is worthless.....

What I do think we are saying (and anyone who's been on this board for awhile has visited the Urgent Rescue and other rescue parts of this board....) is there are enough dogs in the USA in general, and purebred GSD's in specific as it is. MORE THAN ENOUGH to keep a good home.

So even with all the dogs that do get saved here, many do not. Many wonderful dogs with fully titled parents as well as those with not titles/fame/glory in their lines at all.

Because of that, I don't think anyone needs to breed ANY dog at all. Freaking go to a shelter or rescue instead, we HAVE plenty of dogs already. I know all my dogs have always been spayed, and some HAVE come from very good lines, but I love them, don't breed them.

Point being, what I think the intent of people when they do talk about titles and championships and such is that if you ARE going to be a responsible breeder. It would be best to breed the best (did I mention we already have alot of great dogs that are killed in shelters every day. Don't need any more great dogs). One of the ways to tell 'the best' dog is thru some kind of testing for temperament/titling system that can compare dogs or that can highlight a dogs strengths and weaknesses. And if those dog do well, really show they have what a breeder would like to show as a way to improve their breeding program and meet their goals as a breeder.......than THAT's a dog worth breeding.

I have raised 3 dogs that would never win in a show ring. Does that mean I loved them less? No way. That mean I didn't brag on about them less? No again. And I have to say over the past 10 years I've posted about all 3 of them all the time on this site, brag brag brag. 

So I think you are confusing the conversation from those of us that are interested in responsible breedings, improving the lines, what the standard for the breed is vs. what you may see. With the fact that the vast majority of the dogs on this site aren't shown at all, have never won a title, don't fit the standard to a 't' and are even mixed breed (and not GSD at all). Everyone is welcome, we know these are great dogs.


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## Lily_08 (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't care if my dog is a Schutzhund champion or a show winner. I don't expect her to be. I love her for who she is and for her companionship. That's all I want, and for me that is my ultimate goal. I do however, like to know as much about the breed as possible. And I take pride in that. Thanks all for your help!


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