# Shiloh and King Shepherds? formerly in chat



## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

Feel free to move this mods!

I really love German Shepherds, and cannot imagine not having one! I LOVE my dogs! They are everything I wanted in a shepherd.BUT they are not from "reputable breeders" Two are from shelters, one from small hobby type family who bred their pet dogs. They all have the temperaments I like, and I realize I got lucky. But they are each exactly what I wanted, iffy backgrounds or not. Looks-wise also!

I do like the looks of the shepherds, obviously! But I kinda want a working line, but I want a calm pet who can behave in the house. Who isn't a turbo charged work machine that needs to be told to relax. Idont want to argue with people over what lines equal a true German shepherd. I don't want to deal all the BYB vs rescue vs whose opinion is better of reputeable breeders. I really really love the dogs though! I am really tired of all the arguing and snobbery that seems to automatically come up on any of the GSD oriented forums or even just a GSD discussion on general forum. 

I was very frustrated at the recent pet expo with allthe GSD show people who wouldn't even bother to answer one question about their dogs. Afew others approached me and my girl Sasha and asked what type she was. THREE times, when I answered that I wasn not sure, as she came from a shelter they just walked away mid sentence. Like a shelter dog was not worthy of their attention. Actually, the local K9 officer units were the nicest by far! 

I dunno, mostly venting I guess, but I would like to be able to choose a low drive, laid back, 95# male bi-color puppy (not exactly but for sake of conversation!) without all the criticism over WHY I want a shepherd that is oversized or a certain color. Or aGSD is not for me if I want a calm easy going dog. I get that those dogs are not ideal for this breed, but what is wrong with looking for one that does fit this discription. Is it wrong to hope a breeder gets a big lazy pup, that would be fine with a couple walks a day and mayber some ball, with hikes a few times a week? And then all the endless circling over what a true GSD is. But my dogs are obviously purebred, and exactly what I wanted. Are their forums out there that are less heated? Or is the entire breed always just a hot button topic?

When I am ready for my next puppy, should I consider the Shiloh or Kings, instead of a workingline and hoping for a calmer pup to be available? Ofcourse I will adopt a shepherd needing a home again!!!! But I would also like to have a puppy to raise at some point. I am fairly active, hiking and walks, but I am not going to be training for 2 hours, then 3 several mile walks, followed by another hour of training.....I know many will likely already think a true GSD is not for me, but, I want to be able to find dogs like the ones I already have. So I know it is out there, but for a puppy, would one of the breeds that LOOK like GSDs be better?

Any helpful insight appreciated! BTW I do respect all the work you guys do with your dogs, but I am more of an average dog owner than an expert by any means!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

We absolutely support rescues and people who adopt from them 100%

We do not support byb's who are ruining the breed by breeding dogs with health and temperment issues.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I wan't really asking about BYB, trust me, I am NOT looking to get that debate going AGAINI am more and more interested in Shilohs or Kings. I am trying to find the dog I want through a good breeder, but seems like what I want is not what the best breeders are about. Which is why I am asking for ideas on those breeds. Thanks


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> We absolutely support rescues and people who adopt from them 100%
> 
> We do not support byb's who are ruining the breed by breeding dogs with health and temperment issues.


ditto


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't know anything about either breed-but I would go to dog shows and just ask the people who own the dogs about their breed. I love going to dog shows and just looking at different breeds. Its fun. I wouldn't worry too much about where your dogs came from sounds like you got just what you wanted. Think shelter dogs are wonderful!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have a black GSD.

He is basically a coach potato. He does a daily walk, he goes after sticks and balls. He gets plenty of mental stimulation but he would be content laying by me and watching tv. He is a mix between American lines and West German Showlines.

In every litter, wether they are working lines or showlines, you will get puppies with different drives. There very well could be a low drive, bicolor male in a working line litter that would be perfect for you. All you have to do is find a reputable breeder you like, tell them EXACTLY what you are looking for and they will pick the perfect pup for you.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

well, I wouldnt say people breeding Shilohs or Kings are ruining any breed..not the GSD anyways. They might be in the background, but they are not GSDs.

AFAIK, there are little to no standards on Shilohs, but I know I've talked to a few breeders in the past who do test for things like hips and elbows and the like, its just a matter of continuing to look and not settling. Obvisouly stay away from any Shiloh/King breeders who advertise them as giant GSDs or old style GSDs or whatever as that isnt true, since they aren't GSDs.



> In every litter, wether they are working lines or showlines, you will get puppies with different drives. There very well could be a low drive, bicolor male in a working line litter that would be perfect for you.


Yup, not all two puppies are alike, lol. They are going to range. This is something that may take some time, but just keep talking to breeders and if you find one you like, waiting a litter or two would be worth it for the pup that fits for you.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I can't answer your question about Shilohs or Kings, but if you want to get a puppy and one with a lesser drive, talk to breeders and let one pick out the pup the would meet your lifestyle. I told my breeder that I wanted the laziest, dumbest puppy they had and they picked out Stosh- he's perfect for me! Certainly not lazy or dumb but not a very high, on the go every second activity level. We go for hikes every morning, he's been through several levels of obedience and now we're taking herding classes, but he settles down easily. I think a lot of times it's a matter of training rather than level of 'drive'. The point I'm trying to make is that you can get a pup from a reputable breeder that will fit the type of activity level you want.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

It is a shame that you got snubbed at the pet expo. I'd like to think that not all GSD owners display that type of charecteristic when there is an inquiry regarding their dogs. But, it is a great lesson learned (and obviously needed to be told) to those who would hope they wouldn't behave that way at a public (GSD related) function. 

Use these forums just to gather information, but always form your own opinions. The fact that you have rescued, shows that you have a great deal of compassion and interest in the breed. For that I applaud you!

There is nothing wrong at all with wanting specific traits in your next GSD. They are out there. You just have to look (and learn) a little harder.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

Thanks, I really value a positive discussion that isnot distinegrated by bashing! Yeah, I really get what you are saying, I am kinda nervous about aksing a breeder that raises dogs for police or shutzhund for a lazy dog though. But maybe you are totally right, maybe they would happen to get a pup that they would rather place in a pet home. I am really looking into getting a good pup, I really like the looks of many of the higher quality dogs. I don't want a dog that just lays around all day, I do like getting out and exploring the woods all day, just not EVERY day! Like I said, I am also planning on getting another shelter dog as well, and I know I will be able to find one that is perfect for me. Both of my shelter dogs are amazing, and I really feel like I have a good fel for the temperament that suits my home life well. 

I was really put off by the show people though! I was soooo looking forward to meeting some of the dogs, and left my Sasha home the 2nd day to go back and hopefully meet a couple at least. There were sooo many different looks, from very dark B&Ts, bicolors, dark sables, light cream and silver sables, long coats, everything in between. I wanted to at least meet and get my foot in the door with a couple whose dogs really had the look I prefer. I realize they were likely busy, but I wasn't pestering them while they were waiting to get in the ring or anything. I felt like I was annoying them to even complement their dogs. Noone introduced themselves, or offered any info on their dogs. Weird. I would have thought at a pet expo, they would be more willing to speak with the general population! Really made me wonder if these are the kind of people I want to give $1500 dollars for a pup to, reguardless of the quality. 

My purebred male is really not a couch potato, he does need regular exercise and training. He would not be a good dog for anyone wanting a totally mellow dog! But he isn't hyper either, will setlle well enough, but is always ready to go, up for anything. So I basically don't want a dog MORE active or drivey than him. My two shelter dogs though are pretty darn mellow, but still love to play or go hiking. I do have realistic expactations

Sorry rambling a bit....I feel a bit better seeking a "real" GSD pup now. Hopefully a breeder I like will be reasonable to deal with!

BTW, Stosh sounds perfect for me also, beautiful boy!


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

onyxena, I do not know where in Colorado you are but there are working dog breeder who when they have a litter check each puppy out and some will not have the drive to work and will place in a pet home. If you want the name of a couple of local breeder let me know.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know I think there is a lot of discussion that GSDs should not be BRED to be pets that does not mean pet suitable dogs are not be found!

The best thing you could do and still support the breed is approach breeders of quality dogs that meet the true working standard and lay out what you are looking for, acknowledging that this "type" may be a "reject" for intended use but will have a loving pet home. Realize it may take some time to find what you want. Agree to take it on a limited registration and don't breed it. I can't see what breeder would put up nose at THAT. 

ANY large dog that you get is still going to have to be excercised properly and that is more excercise than YOU need. Those muscles are crucial to keeping the hips and back tight. ANY dog deserves mental stimulation. etc etc.

That is kind of how I wished things happen. 

My current SAR dog is a police dog *reject*. He is small (23"), and does not have overt reactivity that many do seem to want (he is hard to provoke and put in defense, but has plenty of hunt and prey drive and excellent nerves)...

--------

By the same token, I am glad Shilohs and Kings ARE bred for that market. Sure, go ahead but you will still have the needs for physical and mental balance and those breeds have their own problems to follow up on (lot of nervy Shiloh's but I have met some nice ones)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A lady on our SAR team has two Shilohs from a breeder in Tennessee. My teammate breeds horses and knows about breeding animals. They seem to be nice sound dogs with excellent nerves. Gandalf is an excellent trailing dog as is her newer dog, Rainey.
We had many doubts that this gentle giant could do any work but he surprised us all. You may want to check them out to learn more about Shiloh dogs.

http://www.dayspringdogs.com/index.html


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> A lady on our SAR team has two Shilohs from a breeder in Tennessee. My teammate breeds horses and knows about breeding animals. They seem to be nice sound dogs with excellent nerves. Gandalf is an excellent trailing dog as is her newer dog, Rainey.
> We had many doubts that this gentle giant could do any work but he surprised us all. You may want to check them out to learn more about Shiloh dogs.
> 
> http://www.dayspringdogs.com/index.html


hehe, I was just looking at their page I have saved. Maryville is my hometown and im just a county over from them.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I can tell you both Gandalf and Rainey are very nice dogs, excellent temperaments! YOu see the health stuff on their page but not anything about working things but I am ok with that. They are NOT selling GSDs!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Funny, several people have asked me if Stosh was a Shiloh! He's extraordinarily big- 84 lbs at 13 mos, but all the fluff makes him look bigger. I think combined with his personality, people think he's a Shiloh, so that might be the breed for you


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

There is a shiloh in Micah's class that seems to be a VERY nice dog. I was really impressed by her. Great temperament, good build, good nerves. Just based on what I've seen thus far. She shows her and is planning to breed her in the future (she is only 9 mo old), permitting that she get good pinhip results and she's also checking heart and eyes. She also will not breed until she achieves her CH in conformation. She said all this voluntarily, I didn't prod and ask if she was doing these things, so I believe she really does intend to.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

But she wants a 95 pound bi colour.

So how responsible is the breeder going to have to be if that mellow fellow bicolour only ends up being 80 pounds max. or only 25 inches instead of the 27 the person may have anticipated.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

carmspack said:


> But she wants a 95 pound bi colour.
> 
> So how responsible is the breeder going to have to be if that mellow fellow bicolour only ends up being 80 pounds max. or only 25 inches instead of the 27 the person may have anticipated.



I believe the OP was speaking "tongue in cheek" when she said that. Giving an example of not being able to state what one wants without someone having a problem with it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think that makes a good case for saying.....if you want a shepherd, wait for something that approximates your desire - or - there is zero shame in looking outside of the breed.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Jocyn, I do agree with you, but I can see what the OP is saying too. 

Between the different lines, countries, showing, working, people, etc etc it seems if you dont state the right thing to the right crowd, you get told how wrong you are :/

heck, ive seen spats over coat types O.O


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would look at doc's website, he has gorgeous colored dog that are on the larger size of the scale and from his description, have a more mellow temperament.

I remember reading about Gandalf, and how he saved a lost child about 4 years ago.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I do like the looks of the shepherds, obviously! But I kinda want a working line, but I want a calm pet who can behave in the house. Who isn't a turbo charged work machine that needs to be told to relax. Idont want to argue with people over what lines equal a true German shepherd.r! 

.......... I would like to be able to choose a low drive, laid back, 95# male bi-color puppy (not exactly but for sake of conversation!) without all the criticism over WHY I want a shepherd that is oversized or a certain color. 


I don't know . Only the OP can set the record straight. Seems other people focused on the size issue otherwise they would not be recommending Shilohs or Kings .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what do I need to do to show a quote properly. until you come to the words I don't know , the text is a quote of the first post OP.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Gandalf was, however, NOT a GSD and is being bred to the standards of what is called a Shiloh.......


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> .......... I would like to be able to choose a low drive, laid back, 95# male bi-color puppy (not exactly but for sake of conversation!) without all the criticism over WHY I want a shepherd that is oversized or a certain color.
> 
> 
> I don't know . Only the OP can set the record straight. Seems other people focused on the size issue otherwise they would not be recommending Shilohs or Kings .
> ...


I mainly looked at the temperament statement in combination of the other.....

Large size, GSD "look", laid back, big lazy pup, pet dog.....We were presenting other options

Why support someone intentionally breeding GDSs outside of the standards when dogs bred outside of them as their own breed meeting just this market niche are available?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

onyxena said:


> I wan't really asking about BYB, trust me, I am NOT looking to get that debate going AGAINI am more and more *interested in Shilohs or Kings*. I am trying to find the dog I want through a good breeder, but seems like what I want is not what the best breeders are about. *Which is why I am asking for ideas on those breeds. *Thanks


Right this is the topic? That's why I changed the header.

ETA: I had a big bicolor laid back foster GSD. That's where people can go to get dogs that are not in the standard - which you have done in the past.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I totally agree Nancy . One reason I don't like the BlackMagic niche -- lots of specific instructions on pricing . MMMM $100 per extra week after a certain age. MMMM . Does that create - special price on honey in aisle 4 only for the next 10 minutes --- and every one heads to aisle 4 , okay so make that T-Bones instead 1/2 price for the next 5 minutes.

Price tag on the BM pups is $1,500 -- just because of size and a market niche. For the same I guarantee working ability, spend hours doing observations and aptitude tests , matching the dog to the right future use . Here they are eeny meeny miny moe , I think your cute so off you go. Life the easy way.

Any way I agree with you Nancy although I don't like the concept that the Shilohs and "kings" are cashing in on the LOOKS of the GSD. Why not go to a Bernese, or a Newf or a Leonberger if you want that great big lovable mug of a dog.

The Shilohs confuse people into thinking that they are bigger GSD , and then there is that expectation for the marshmallow dog.

When Shilohs came out in the late 80's? people paid a huge premium for the privilege of having one. And , they went out on complicated terms , co-owns, co-breeding obligations with all or nearly all pups back , and or a total report on every pup placed. 

I guess that is in the past now since there is some larger gene pool to work with.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

The only confusion is when people do not do their research. That is going to happen regardless of what the subject matter is, some people just dont research.

The fact is, not everyone tries to "confuse" people, and plenty of people involved in Kings and Shilohs (two different breeds btw) dont compare themselves to the GSD.

While their might be some that do, or whatever, how is that any different from some breeders of the GSD falling back on "Its a police dog!"

False advertising is also something that happens, regardless of the subject matter.



> I would like to be able to choose a low drive, laid back, 95# male bi-color puppy* (not exactly but for sake of conversation!) *without all the criticism over WHY I want a shepherd that is oversized or a certain color.


The bolded part is mine, it seems to me that the comment was made tongue in cheek.



> what do I need to do to show a quote properly. until you come to the words I don't know , the text is a quote of the first post OP.


If you dont quote the actual post, on your bar in your reply box there is a button that says "Wrap


> tags around selected text". Just like on that button and copy/paste what you want to quote in the middle.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

jocoyn said:


> Why support someone intentionally breeding GDSs outside of the standards when dogs bred outside of them as their own breed meeting just this market niche are available?


Because those dogs are not GSDs? I have also heard both Shilohs and Kings are prone to temperament issues and tend to be spooky/skittish, as well as having a lot of joint issues. 
Personally I like the looks/temperaments of some of the larger GSD lines. I do not care for the Shilohs or Kings myself.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Carmen
Before you send out your edict about how the Black Magic dogs are "sent out and life is easy" (I really expected more out of a professional like yourself) maybe we should talk so you know what all is done with the pups and how we place our dogs. I am not going to lower myself and talk bad about your dogs or what you guarantee - I respect a breeder of your stature to much to second guess your process. I am sorry you feel it necessary to put down other breeders based on viewing their web-site. For the record, I breed for the upper limit of the Standard or slightly larger. 





carmspack said:


> I totally agree Nancy . One reason I don't like the BlackMagic niche -- lots of specific instructions on pricing . MMMM $100 per extra week after a certain age. MMMM . Does that create - special price on honey in aisle 4 only for the next 10 minutes --- and every one heads to aisle 4 , okay so make that T-Bones instead 1/2 price for the next 5 minutes.
> 
> Price tag on the BM pups is $1,500 -- just because of size and a market niche. For the same I guarantee working ability, spend hours doing observations and aptitude tests , matching the dog to the right future use . Here they are eeny meeny miny moe , I think your cute so off you go. Life the easy way.
> 
> ...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Doc said:


> Carmen
> Before you send out your edict about how the Black Magic dogs are "sent out and life is easy" (I really expected more out of a professional like yourself) maybe we should talk so you know what all is done with the pups and how we place our dogs. I am not going to lower myself and talk bad about your dogs or what you guarantee - I respect a breeder of your stature to much to second guess your process. I am sorry you feel it necessary to put down other breeders based on viewing their web-site. For the record, I breed for the upper limit of the Standard or slightly larger.


:thumbup:

I'm not a big fan of breeder/breeder bashing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Back to Shiloh's - well the OP asked about Shilohs and Kings and I have now seen some nice Shiloh's - agree there are skittish ones but you can say the same thing for GSDs!

I had my own opinion of my Shilohs until I met these particular dogs (which I have known for 5 years now for Gandalf and about 2 for Rainey) and think...done right they make a darned good farm/pet dog! I am just saying be open minded about what is out there. IF I wanted a Shiloh, I would want to know what they did to avoid the problems associated with early closing of stud books and insufficient foundation stock) and how they control the breeding...................Something CLEARLY not done by the North American Breed Clubs and corrupt in the SV over history.


They are bred for the pet niche. What is wrong with that. OTher dogs have been mentioned but they, too, are actually from a working history.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I am so sorry that the people at the show gave you such a cold shoulder. That is so odd... Some Shepherd people can be really stuck up about the lines they have. So if they see you have a BYB dog or a workingline and you want a showline of theirs they may give you the cold shoulder until they see you are serious.

Anyways if you are looking for an average pet my suggestion would be to go with a pet quality showline. They are still very pretty, nice pigment, good balanced temperaments (when from good breeders) and they won't be as drivey as the pet quality workinglines. 

I would make sure you are supporting a responsible breeder who breeds to the standard. Make sure the breeder you go to at a minimum, health tests their dogs and does something to support breeding to the standard. (either showing their dogs and temperament testing them, training in obedience, schutzhund, herding etc.)

I am not sure what the rules of the forum say about posting links to breeders websites, but if its allowed maybe you could post some breeders you were thinking of getting dogs from. Or get recommendations of breeders from members here.

I would not recommend purchasing from breedings of King Shepherds. It is breeding purposely to a fad and against the standard. Shiloh shepherds are becoming their own thing, if you like that then go for it. I personally would recommend going for a good German Shepherd breeder though, only because I haven't witnessed the temperament of a Shiloh in person. If someone has good references to a shiloh breeder then that may be for you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you have alot of options out there to find what your looking for..Great suggestions here, find some breeders that interest you and tell them what you want, a reputable breeder will be able to tell you if they have, or may have any puppies that would suit you.

Doc's website is a good place to start, he is knowledgeable about the breed and I'm sure could steer you in the right direction. 

There will ALWAYS be a couch potatoe, mellow gsd within some litters produced by reputable breeders. They can't foresee what's going to be born

As for the Shiloh/Kings, I'm not a fan, I think I've met one I liked, but Nancy has had experience with a couple, and could maybe direct you to the breeder of the ones she knows..

Sorry you had a bad experience at the pet expo, I usually shrug them off, people can be stuck up and snobbish, and well you must have run into a couple

I know you are looking or wish for a certain color/size..Your first priority should be health and temperament. The rest may fall into place. 

Just do your homework, meet as many 'flavors' of gsd as possible, go meet breeders and their dogs, go to dog shows, Check out Rare Breed Shows, where the kings/shilohs are shown..just do your homework..


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I have found a good breeder of Shilohs whose bitch has more drive than the average Shiloh. She bred her to a male who also has more drive than the average Shiloh. So here's to a litter of Shilohs that will have good drive and temperaments. Needless to say I am on that list! Most Shilohs have little to no drive and many are couch potato types that can be a little hard to train simply because they just lack drive, not intelligence. But there are some spooky ones, I had one of those. 

You can find what you like in Shilohs and in GSDs. I don't know much about Kings but I think there is alot of politics going on in that breed. Not that there isn't in Shilohs too!

I'll PM you some breeders you may look into, I have not checked them all out so buyer beware.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Doc , are you BlackMagic, then I compliment you on the looks of your dogs , very attractive , healthy and handsome for sure. My comment was made in that with dogs bred for the pet market the dogs are relatively easy to place - in a pet home. Not so with working dogs that require more of the owners involvement . "You" have it easy because your pups leave at a young age and the owners are happy and that is that . 
Working dogs don't depart at that young age . They have to hang around till a year or more getting hours and hours of socialization , exposure to work requirements, hips and elbows x rayed , a year plus of food , testing, etc etc. At the end of that time period the rewards you get cover your expenses but you are working at pennies per hour -- . That is what I meant by the pups go and life is easy . 
As a professional you will always know where I am coming from. I do believe that the GSD has a set out standard which expressly describes breed specific character and parameters on size and definitions on conformation. I don't believe the breed should be custom tailored bred . The breed is recognized as a working dog breed and should have correct character . 
No one specific -- over all .

Carmen


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And this is where we have to understand that show, working, sport, people all have to intermingle peacefully on this board and each group has a different version/vision of what the GSD is.

But we can only be true to our OWN opinions when we reflect what we think it SHOULD be. 

One thing I like about this forum is that it is maintaned with a level of peace and respect between all of us.

Maybe an argument can be made that anything INSIDE the standard is ok to start with and then realize in ALL groups the issues of breeding so specifically that the entire standard is not met within a breeding program. I dunno. I know it can get very heated. 

Particularly when people love the breed so much and want to preserve it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

by the way I have never given the cold shoulder to any mixed breed -- all dogs interest me -- especially since the "era of the purebred" might be coming to an end -- lack of genetic diversity -- . More than once have I commented that I see better nerves in some mix breed , not designer dogs with combinations that are just plain wrong , but true random bred dogs. Wrote about the little white spitz like dog outside a cafe window that demonstrated perfection in his handling of the public passing by him . He was tethered to a bench right in front of Linda Shaw and myself. We both said there would have been many a gsd who would have been a wild and lunging maniac , or hiding under the bench. There are things which are hard to find.
Carmen


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Carmen,
I do actually work with my pups as they grow. No it's not months and years of training but none the less I do morre than throw two dogs together, birth the pups, then collect the money. I do not know what other "pet" breeders do with their pups but mine get a great deal of basic care and experiences during their brief life with me. Car rides, crate introduction, dog house introduction, doggie door experience, consistant grooming/touching of body, paws rubbed, learning designated potty areas, combed and brushed starting at week 3, are just some of the things the pups encounter along with exposure to other animals, children, adults, etc. They are started in imprinting on basic commands also.
We take our breeding very serious and have a very specific breeding program. We have had dogs go into Police work, SAR, child psychology therapy and other venues. I like to think their early upbringing helped in their overall development. Our future will hopefully include public service animals and physical assistance dogs. 
We both agree that a German shepherd is a working dog and must have impeccable nerve/character - no matter where the German shepherd is found.




carmspack said:


> Doc , are you BlackMagic, then I compliment you on the looks of your dogs , very attractive , healthy and handsome for sure. My comment was made in that with dogs bred for the pet market the dogs are relatively easy to place - in a pet home. Not so with working dogs that require more of the owners involvement . "You" have it easy because your pups leave at a young age and the owners are happy and that is that .
> Working dogs don't depart at that young age . They have to hang around till a year or more getting hours and hours of socialization , exposure to work requirements, hips and elbows x rayed , a year plus of food , testing, etc etc. At the end of that time period the rewards you get cover your expenses but you are working at pennies per hour -- . That is what I meant by the pups go and life is easy .
> As a professional you will always know where I am coming from. I do believe that the GSD has a set out standard which expressly describes breed specific character and parameters on size and definitions on conformation. I don't believe the breed should be custom tailored bred . The breed is recognized as a working dog breed and should have correct character .
> No one specific -- over all .
> ...


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I appreciate everyone keeping this CIVIL thanks! It is confusing. I am not specifically looking for a giant marmallow type dog that just lays around! I have absolutely zero interest in a newfie or anyting similar, my SIL had a couple and they really didn't do anything. Well, they layed around, ate, pooped, drooled and shedded ALOT. Actually I don't want anything other than a GSD, just wondering if wanting a pet type dog from the working lines is realistic. I know that finding a great breeder and having them choose a pup that would suit me is good, but wanted to find out if my desires for a pet are unrealistic for the type i want. Yes I do prefer a larger dog, but am not set on having a dog over 100 pounds or anything. I also prefer dark coloring, darker the better, be it sable, blanket, or solid black! I do like some of the American showlines, but the WGerman showlines really don't interst me at all. They are attractive, but don't really dont interest me much. I am also interested in getting into SAR training or something along those lines, mostly just for fun really, but still primarily a pet. 

Truely, between all the heated debates and my depressing dog show experience, I have been wondering if I am wrong for wanting such a dog. But I really want a great looking, solid, steady dog that is ready to go, but doesn't mind just hanging out at home. Honestly I love all of them, BYB bred, shelter sheps, showlines, all the working types, and all the related breeds. Like the shilohs, kings, even the mals and Dutchies. I just keep picturing a sort-of goofy, easygoing pup that doesn't quite get what all his high powered littlermates are so excited about, that maybe the breeder is hoping someone will call looking for a nice pet. I really am not set on a certain age either. If the breeder I chose had a 6 or 8 month old that would be suitable, I would be willing to do that also. Actually I might prefer an older pup that already has a pretty clear temperament and some housetraining!

Thanks again for all of your suggestions everyone! I was afraid to even put this out there, but I am pleasantly surprised


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

onyxena;
I recently purchased a pup in the last year if you want to pm me I can point in the right direction of some breeders local to Colorado to investigate.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

oxyzena - well SAR training is something that you definitely are best off with a high drive working line dog and it is an avocation that is an almost full time commitment - or full time for those who can afford not to have jobs. I probably put in 15-20 hours a week on team/k9 related activities and several thousand dollars a year.

Yes, the low ball drive shiloh fills a niche on our team but that is definitely an anomaly...and I think it is only because of some of the dogs his breeder worked with..... 

However if you can find a tracking club, that is a lot of fun, not crazy wild, and just about any dog loves it..even if it only has some food drive. Actually my interest in SAR was when I was doing AKC tracking in the 80s and met a fellow from the local SAR team...back then with two toddlers in tow I realized it was more of a committment than I could make, but as soon as the youngest went into middle school in the late 90s got involved.

I imagine you could find what you are looking for within the GSD breed; it wil just take some time, particularly if you decide part of your criteria is to work with / support those breeders who are trying to breed within the standard.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Onyxena, some years back I talked extensively with breeders & ex-breeders of both Shilohs & Kings. Both breeds seemed to have more temperament problems & health issues than many GSDs. They also seemed to generally be bred to be extremely soft, Golden soft & soft Golden soft at that. Most of em are big. Many are lovely. Beyond that I wasn't overall taken with 'em.

IF you go that way do a lot of research & try to talk to those who have left the breed as well as those still active in it. I don't know if it's improved, but back then it seemed that few breeders stayed with these breeds for very long. Many became frustrated & disillusioned & quit the breed after only a couple of yrs.

PM Doc & look at his dogs. I think you'd be very happy with the GSD he produces.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I own a Shiloh. He's my avatar pic. First off, good reputable Shiloh breeders take their breeding seriously and are looking to forward the breed. There are specific standards and traits they are breeding towards. Shilohs have the same health problems as the GSD. My Shiloh came from a good reputable breeder and good lines yet has digestives issues. In terms of temperament, I think they are softer and don't have as much drive as the GSD making them less suitable to police/military work. I'm sure there are exceptions but I'm generalizing. As for calmer, I don't know about that. My guy is HIGH energy. With any litter though, you can certainly inform the breeder what type of dog you are looking for and they will try to match the right puppy to you. There are BYB breeding Shilohs, breeding long-haired GSD's and passing them off as Shilohs, and breeding mixes and passing them off as Shilohs. If you really are considering a Shiloh, do your homework and get one from a good breeder. I can recommend some if you PM me. There are a lot of politics in the Shiloh world as well and we are divided into two groups. The ISSDC and the ISSR. I can talk to you about that in a PM as well. I belong to the ISSDC. Here's their website for info as well as another about the breed.

International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club, Inc. [ISSDC]

About Shiloh Shepherds the library project - HOME


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I only met one Shiloh/King Shepherd and he was a pain in the butt. Talk about hyper! He wouldn't leave my female alone, pestering and nipping .... all over her.
He was 1 year old, so still a puppy. His owner did not attempt to control him so I
don't blame the dog.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

onyxena you may want to pm Doc like RubyTuesday suggested his website was one of the websites that I looked at when I was narrowing down breeders for my pup. I hadn't found this forum then.
I just ended up talking to my breeder first and decided to go with her. My breeder would probably have a pup that would fit you too, you can pm me if want to know about her.


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