# Ignorant Neighbors.... (RANT)



## knotadork (Jun 12, 2009)

My lovely neighbors got two new puppies yesterday off craigslist. I have no problems with them getting puppies, just feel so horrible for the pups. They currently have 6 kids, which I would have no problems with if they used any discipline at all on them. The youngest girl was already hitting one of the poor pups with a stick yesterday while the parents just sat there and talked to me. I finally had to tell her to stop. They are both mixes, I asked if they planned on getting them fixed because I was going to recommend a place and they said no they are going to let them have puppies and then sell them on craigslist... At that point I'd had enough and just mentioned if they knew how many dogs were put down every day due to not having homes. They had a pinch collar on the male who couldn't have been more then 16wks old. Just so very frustrated and trying to talk to them is like talking to a brick wall. They don't get offended, just don't seem to care. Don't know if I should continue to say anything or just but out. I guess I've said my peace and should just leave it at that but don’t feel right about it.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

Makes you want to cry doesn't it. I just took in a dog to foster it on the way to rescue yesterday. the poor dog (a GSD) has been on tie out it's whole life except for periods in the winter when it gets too cold. First thing I had to do was cut the choke chain off as it was too small and rubbing his neck raw. I don't hink his toe nails have ever been cut. I'm going to get him cleaned up a bit before he gets neutered next week. As long as there are people like this, there will always be a need for rescue and thousands of animals will die due to overpopulation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe you should point out that mixed breed puppies don't really have a monetary value and how much money it costs to have puppies with vetting and care of the mother. Also point out that there is a chance the mother could need emergency care and how much that will cost. I would stress the money aspect and that, in this economy, ppl aren't going to be buying animals


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## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08Maybe you should point out that mixed breed puppies don't really have a monetary value and how much money it costs to have puppies with vetting and care of the mother. Also point out that there is a chance the mother could need emergency care and how much that will cost. I would stress the money aspect and that, in this economy, ppl aren't going to be buying animals


That might work on other people but from what I read about the people I don't think they would care. They'd feed the puppies what they could, when they could and won't deworm, vaccinate or do anything of the sorts. And oh if the mother would need emergency care they would just drop her at the nearest animal shelter and be done with it. 

This is really horrible. Makes me so so so angry! Isn't there someone you can phone and complain to? Explain the living conditions of the dogs and what they're planning on doing?


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## knotadork (Jun 12, 2009)

I sadly tried that route already. She mentioned she was going to sell them for 20-50. Just horrible. And from the way they take care of themselves I doubt they would take the mother to the vet for basic needs or if anything happened. Neither one of them work. She never has and the father had a bran aneurism a little over a year ago and can no longer work (and they had another child after all this). 

Just makes me sick. Just get so emotional about all this when I look on craigslist everyday or watch the animal planet and see how many unwanted, on there way to death amazing animals there are out there.


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

A friend of mine, after months of turmoil, finally got 3 adult dogs removed from her next door neighbor's yard, one a beautiful GSD who was heartworm positive (he is ok now and living in a good living situation) who was fathering litters and litters of puppies. Same kind of situation, same ignorance. Prior to her going the legal (and long) route, we were talking about how to dognap the shepherd. It's frustrating and sad.
I would keep talking, talking, talking -- handing over literature. And if these people don't wake up, I'd start reporting them. 
Craigslist here locally does not allow people to post pets for sale. Perhaps your local CL can do the same. 
There is a fantastic flyer I got from the Humane Society that shows how many thousands of puppies one dog can create in a lifetime. If you would like me to find it, scan it, and e-mail it to you to share with these people, let me know, and I'd be happy to.


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

Not surprised at all, I have seen people buying “Pure Breed” GSD for breeding porpoise, I have talked to a few guys in parks myself, since my girl is intact one guy ask me if I plan to breed her, I said NO, There are lots of PB GSD in rescue shelters precisely because people just breed dogs without concern where they will end their short life’s once they leave the puppy stage and owners don’t want to deal with training big dogs.
He said didn't see any problem in breeding, that is why he got his dog.
As you said, he didn’t care, what is more interesting, he claim to be member of these forums, Go Figure...


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RavenSophiThis is really horrible. Makes me so so so angry! Isn't there someone you can phone and complain to? Explain the living conditions of the dogs and what they're planning on doing?


Unfortunately, no authorities would do anything. To be fair, they haven't done anything yet. Just because they say they will doesn't mean they will (of course they probably will).


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

You have to feel bad for people who want to go through all that trouble just to make 20 or 50 bucks off selling puppies on CL.


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## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

Sometimes I think I shouldn't be on this earth. Some things just make me so sad. For example...since MJ's death they've been playing Man in the Mirror (not sure about right name) anyway, each time that video starts on TV I have to change the channel. There are images of people not having food or clothes...really really poor people and you can see the sadness in their eyes. I always feel so helpless and it makes me horribly sad. Same goes for dogs...I will never be able to volunteer at a dog shelter as just photos of seeing dogs in cages and in poor living conditions make me want to cry. 

Anway, all I can say is I will be thinking of you and hoping that you can get some sense into these people's heads and save the poor dogs and the future puppies they might have. I will continue to try and think of something you can say that might change their minds.


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## knotadork (Jun 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RavenSophiSometimes I think I shouldn't be on this earth. Some things just make me so sad. For example...since MJ's death they've been playing Man in the Mirror (not sure about right name) anyway, each time that video starts on TV I have to change the channel. There are images of people not having food or clothes...really really poor people and you can see the sadness in their eyes. I always feel so helpless and it makes me horribly sad. Same goes for dogs...I will never be able to volunteer at a dog shelter as just photos of seeing dogs in cages and in poor living conditions make me want to cry.
> 
> Anway, all I can say is I will be thinking of you and hoping that you can get some sense into these people's heads and save the poor dogs and the future puppies they might have. I will continue to try and think of something you can say that might change their minds.


I am the same way.. the one time I went into Petland before I knew what it was I walked out a sobbing mess. It kills me to not be able to do for all. Which is why we must continue to speak out and try to change people, although most people won't. Makes me go into a rage when I hear people say "they're just dogs". Scares me that people can be so cruel.

But also as stated earlier, nothing much I can do. They are just weeks old and nothing has happened as of yet. Granted something will. Just will try to continue to educate, at least then I've done what I can.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: knotadorkI sadly tried that route already. She mentioned she was going to sell them for 20-50. Just horrible. And from the way they take care of themselves I doubt they would take the mother to the vet for basic needs or if anything happened. Neither one of them work. She never has and the father had a bran aneurism a little over a year ago and can no longer work (and they had another child after all this).
> 
> Just makes me sick. Just get so emotional about all this when I look on craigslist everyday or watch the animal planet and see how many unwanted, on there way to death amazing animals there are out there.


sounds like the parents need to be neutered.









Maybe you can mention simple things like ear infections?? last one for Sashi cost me over 1K......
annual just routine Vet visit was $100+ At new Vet, it was $500 because they did bloodwork, etc. 
yes, they will probably feed them cheap stuff like Ol roy 
they say ignorance is bliss, must be nice.








How in the worl do they feed 6 kids plus 2 puppies???


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## Yvette (Jan 29, 2001)

And yes, Massachusetts has this too. My cousin had gotten 2 male pups when they were 3 wks old. The "Breeder" is selling pups at that age for $500 a piece! Be cause they are min pin/pugs!
He & his family are mentally impaired. They are dying to bring the pups to my house just to show me. Even though the pups are older now, they have no shots & have not been to a vet. I always tell them, do not bring them here! I do not want my dogs sick or be responsible for these pups getting sick at my house. They told me before hand about the pups & what this lady was doing & I gave them a BIG lecture about it. Someone reported my cousin too, to Child Services for have away to many animals & flea problems, etc.
Still hasn't stopped them though. It's just horrible.







And to think too,
My Cousin's wife wants to be a dog groomer! She is taking a mail order coarse & wants me to show her on hands stuff.








Hopefully, what I show her wil change her mind pretty darn quick....


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: knotadork
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RavenSophiSome things just make me so sad. There are images of people not having food or clothes...really really poor people and you can see the sadness in their eyes. I always feel so helpless and it makes me horribly sad. Same goes for dogs...in cages and in poor living conditions make me want to cry.
> ...


I am totally the same way. Sometimes I think it is like a stay at home Mom thing or something. I over care for EVERYTHING, to the point I think I will go mad!! When I walk the dogs after it rains I put the worms back in the grass! (Did I really just tell that,







) 

Do not give up. Keep talking, be blunt. I feel like I have gotten through to people. 

Tell them the days of people letting their dogs have puppies are over. Just keep going. 

I know it is harder because they are right next door. 

Man, that is upsetting. IGNORANT NEIGHBORS!! I agree. 

I have decided I am NOT a neighborhood girl. I want to move!!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Stupid is as stupid does. Nothing you say will sway ignorant people. When they start this attempt at a puppy mill set up a web cam in a second story window of your home that can see the back yard clearly, or set one up on your roof and record the madness. That way it can be broken up by AC as quickly as possible.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Puppy Mills! Puppy's are the biggest seller for children! They know it. What gets me is the "Big" Pet stores not knowingly (or do they?)
sell these pups. I hate it! Only way is TRY to educate people. How, I wish I knew. But I try any way. I alway's take my Dog when ever I here an ad at these places. People look at him and ask questions, I then try to explain what is going on. Some people listen, so don't.
But at least I try... Remember, stores sell products for them, they will not help you. If each person took their dog to these what I call shows,I think would make a difference. Educate, kids learn, adults learn...


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Way back when I was searching for a GSD I came across this ad for GSD's in the paper, I called it wondering why the breeder would sell them for so little, I figured it was just a family who bred their two dogs or something and was curious. Well, I talked to the girl on the phone and she said there was no papers which is why she sells them for so little, she then emailed me pictures. It was OBVIOUSLY a GSD puppy mill







I still have the pics she sent me. I was thinking maybe I could report her or something but then thought maybe I am wrong, maybe she just built this outdoor area for them and they are happy house dogs... but sure looks like a puppy mill to me!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

is that behind glass/plastic window???


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I just pulled this one from my email from her that I saved










It looks like they are in a fenced area with little cubbys or something. I never got back to her, the pics made me so sad.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Wow. Love the moisture that's seeped into the walls and molding the hay bale behind them. Nasty! Poor pups!


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Those pictures just kill me! You can see it in their eyes. It goes right straight to my heart!! 

They are so sad. They are looking at the person, like, why? Why do you keep us this way? 

I would like to think that they are brought in doors at some point. OR they are loved and loved. But that is NOT what their eyes are saying. 

I would E-mail this person back and inform them that GSD's like to be with people and GRASS, and exercised. ETC....and so on!! 

I guess I should be happy that they are not chained to a tree, and skinny. It does show one with food.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

a guy on CL emailed me and sent pic of his "retiring male stud dog" 6 yrs old, NEVER had been in a house. yea like I am going to try and housebreak a 6 yr old intact GSD! oh and he only wanted $150 for hime I thought if he loved the dog, he shouldve turned him into a Rescue to try and rehome. 
Im not THAT experienced with dogs at least Neek came housebroken but we are still working on all the other stuff and he is 4 but he learns pretty fast and was neutered.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Back to the original issue here -- How ethical would it be to start giving the pups treats - and at the appropriate age slip the female some doggie birth control pills in a treat? Just a question mind you...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

two dogs and a litter of puppies does not equal a puppy mill. 

With the lack of papers, it is probably just a Backyard Breeder. 

The dogs seem to have plenty of space and have shelter. 

When you all buy your dog from up scale breeders, I hate to say it, but I bet some of them less space and possibly less owner interaction than these two have. 

I have shelters for my dogs and in the winter I put straw in there. In the spring, before I get it all out of there it has moisture. I pick up poo daily, but you cannot have several feet of snow dump everywhere without wet dog going in and out of its shelter and getting the bedding moist. 

We should really be careful how we use the term puppy mill. Puppy mills have anywhere from dozens of dogs to hundreds of dogs. Puppy mills have dogs that are physically injured, matted, starved, etc. Puppy mills provide the least amount of care for them most profit. And though they MAY not be AKC papers, the dogs do have papers. 

So you can read a dogs eyes and know what they are thinking. ****, but your good.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I have seen on Animal Planet what you are talking about selzer, it's awful







I guess backyard breeder would be a better term for these dogs, it gives me a better perspective of the term. I just know that Lulu is not happy being away from us for 10 minutes even in the backyard and for some reason when she sent me these pics I felt very sad for the dogs, I just always have had my dogs by my side and very close to me and can't imagine them living without constant human interaction. But, as I said, I don't know if they are in the house at night (the pic of the pups nursing looks to be indoors) or whatever.

I do know those shingled shelters weren't cheap to build... I don't know what is going on here just didn't feel right to me...


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, and I should add, I didn't get Lulu from an "upscale" breeder. I found her advertised online on a pet classified site and fell in love with her pic, she came from a home who had two GSD's and the white dad wasn't registered since can't show white and they never registered him so neither is Lulu. The moment I met her in person I knew she was "my dog", she just melted in my arms , and she has proved to be perfect for us and highly intelligent. Maybe they are considered backyard breeders, when people in their home allow their dogs to breed without them being "upscale breeders" I don't know, but I'm sure glad Lulu was born!









but Lulu's parents lived in the house and part of the family, I just don't like the whole idea of penning dogs outside, but as I said, I don't know the whole situation...


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I have to agree with Sue- I did not see anything alarming in those pictures. Dogs with shelter and food, of good weight.... just because they are outside in a picture does not mean the live out there on a permanent basis, get no human interaction and are forgotten.
I really think it is important to be careful about making assumptions.


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## knotadork (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, at least they seemed to listen to me about the prong collar. I haven't seen it on him since.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I can't imagine people who want to breed mixed pups and sell on craigslist... are enough older doggies on craigslist that need homes... and for $20? and how many pups will the pups have, etc... I saw a show of "It's me or the dog" where victoria demonstrated not getting your dog fixed by those little balls like in a kiddy play thing, she kept dropping them and dropping them just from one dog and wow... 

Your neighbors don't sound very intelligent to begin with so I am not sure logic will work on them. I am a fan of birth control in the treats idea, didn't know they made that


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: I have shelters for my dogs and in the winter I put straw in there ... getting the bedding moist


I would hope that you would not do less for your dogs than a horse: daily tossing of the bedding, removal of soiled or damp bedding, new dry bedding added ...

The straw in those photos is not just moist, it is rotted.
They may not be on par with a puppy mill but I still would not support that "breeder" - there are many byb's that take better care of their dogs than that: animals die from fungal/mold infections.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If anyone dropped birth control in a treat to my dogs, they would be sued, seriously sued. That is poison, and no way would it be ok to do to somebody's purebred or mutt.

I understand that there is a majority of people on this site who feel that there are too many dogs in shelters and too many dogs euthanized every year for no good reason. 

However, it is irresponsible to suggest that we do anything outside of the bounds of the law to bring about a solution to that problem. 

Feeding a dog birth control is vandalism and if the dog were to react badly and require some type of veterinary care, it could easily be misdiagnosed. You may as well suggest they kidnap the puppies, have them speutered and then return them. It is a terribly invasive thing to somebody else's property. 

What gives us the right to think we have a better bead on the truth? And even if we do, we cannot force another person to conform to what we believe. Educate, persuade, convince, explain, fine. But it is the dogs' owners that should make the decisions that concern the dogs, not the neighbors. 

If you must, work to get speuter laws enacted and enforced. However misguided I believe that to be, THAT is within your rights as a concerned citizen.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not think that anyone daily tosses straw used for their dogs. No mold grows in the winter in NE Ohio. I do not put straw down until late December / January. It stays useable for months. Yes the dogs do thaw some snow on it inside their houses. But they are toasty warm. 

I have not had any dog get sick from mold straw. 

I agree that horses can get sick from moldy hay, especially if that is what is being used to feed them. A horse urinates and defacates on its bedding and yes, that must be cleaned daily. My dogs do not relieve themselves in their shelters. 

No I do not change it daily. So sorry. This is comparing apples to oranges.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I knew I shouldn't have posted those pics when I did today, knew I would get feedback for them, but I did because I got a bad feeling back then from talking to the woman, and looking at the pics again I get that same bad feeling... hay for dogs? I know my dogs have loved soft blankets and pillows but hay?

Maybe it's not as bad as some doggies have it but it is still not right... it's obviously a shelter set up to harbor dogs for breeding. I just think dogs should be by their humans... 

As far as the birth control thing, Selzer, you are 100% right... I didn't think about it like I should have before I spoke about it... just, makes me sad... but you are right about what you said about "sneaking" it into their treats, not an admirable or honest thing to do for sure...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When you talk to a breeder and when a breeder talks to a prospective puppy owner people hang themselves. 

It is probably that what she said in the conversation was a lot more telling than the pictures. Always go with your gut. 

I have had people tell me that they have ductaped rotted meat to their dog's muzzle to keep her out of the garbage. And then she wanted me to sell her a puppy!!! 

Another person wanted to buy a couple of females from me for breeding. I figure, well, some people knew I was going to be breeding and sold me dogs anyway, so I listened to her. Yeah, well there was definitely something wrong there and I decided not to sell. Come to find out later that she is one of the most notorious puppy mills here in NE Ohio, at least amongst shepherd breeders. 

When you couple what you have heard with the pictures, you are probably seeing a lot more than what I am seeing. 

Hay is not bad for dogs, neither is straw. Straw is actually very good. It is one of the best insulators and actually generates heat. People use to use a straw tick to put their mattress on. I imagine some mattresses were made from straw. 

Hay on the other hand will mold and if it gets wet in a barn it can start a fire. I do not think that will happen if it is out in a kennel though. I think that the hollow structure of straw is just better suited for insulation/bedding. It is not edible like hay. 

My dogs are outside all day summer and winter. They come in in the evening. Straw provides them a nice warm bed inside their houses.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Notice the fur on the dog laying with the pups. That shows me no grooming. Otherwise no time spent with them. Sad, sad, sad!
Also, the sadness in the eyes......


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Got a camera?If you see a child hiitting a pup with a stick that is animal cruelty and parents will be prosected.Also sadly that type of dog owner will most likely either get rid of dogs before they breed or will just after when they find out raising a litter is hard work and not that easy or profitable to sell mixed puppies. 
As far as sad eyes or needing to be groomed from pics-anyone could says that about pics from great dog owners.Great idea for pic thread!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Right, selzer, I remember when I spoke with her and asked her if they are registered she said "no, if they were I could get a lot more money for them!" I just got the feeling from her before even seeing the pics that something didn't feel right with her, her tone of voice, etc.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Let's take a look at hay/straw & spontaneous combustion that was mentioned.

This happens with damp BALED hay or straw when the bales are stacked or else a very deep stack (think the old stacks of hay about 15 to 20 feet high). Loose hay or straw in bedding that has gotten wet shouldn't spontaneously combust. Loose hay or straw that is dry and has a match or cigarette ash dropped on it will burn.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

To the OP keep trying with your neighbors. I would NOT give up. Hope it works out. 

To the person who posted the stall pics with the hay. I think it is terrible. Not how dogs should be kept, even more so GSD. That is MY OPINON, and I do have the right to that. 

I see sadness in their eyes. NOT READING THEIR MINDS. 

Did not know they had doggie birth control? Do they really? Hmmm. 

Hay is for horses, not dogs.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I thought they looked sad too, Daisy







I took the pics off my facebook and forgot it would delete them here


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

FredD, are you a breeder?

Every bitch is different. Many blow their coats when weaning a litter. Lots start blowing their coats a little earlier. When you have a new litter of pups, you are not removing the bitch daily to brush her out, that would add stress to her. 

Many people will give them a quick bath to get some of the green blood liquid goo off of them. I never bother them with a full grooming when they have a litter on the ground. I don't want to stress them at all, and keeping them away from the whelps is stress. A bitch not looking like she is ready for the show ring when she has suckling puppies doesn't make or break someone for me. If she had matted poop in her fur or was lying in poop, then yeah, that would be terrible.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can anyone read Babsy's mind here through her eyes. She looks pretty sad, I hope that maybe she is just hoping I don't kick her off the bed any time soon:









Whitney likes grass too much, she eats it and always barfs. I would not leave her on grass:









And lastly, Dubya could not be left in a grass enclosure. The flies would attack his ears and make him bleed. This never happened in his concrete kennel.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Babs doesn't look sad, she looks defiant like 'I know I'm not supposed to be in this unmade bed'


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I consider people who are planning on breeding without having quality dogs, with less-than-ideal kennel situations, etc. as "puppy-mills-in-the-making". Having a dog raise a litter of pups outdoors on rotting, moldy hay is extremely poor management, and if they manage to sell those puppies it just finances further breeding and a larger operation (if they choose to go that way). 

I see NO REASON not to criticize breeders who do not put 100% into their breeding. And people who defend poor breeding?? OMG, how can anyone have respect for someone who defends a breeder who allows their dogs to raise pups on moldy hay or straw? What DOES that say about the person doing the defending?

To the OP: I'm so sorry to hear of your neighbors and that these poor pups are heading for a life of misery. If these people are on disability or welfare of any kind, the money they make by selling pups will reduce their monthly income from the government - and there is nothing unethical about reporting them so that the government is well aware that these people are bringing in income. You might suggest to these people that they could lose their assistance (monetary and food stamps) if they are caught selling pups and not reporting the money to APA or SSA or whoever is assisting them. If it all boils down to money, that might hit home for them the most.

I sure wish there was a way to shut down the unethical breeders without punishing/hurting the good breeders. There are some breeders on this forum and throughout the U.S. that I think very highly of, and I would hate to see them pay the price for the crap these bad breeders dish out. It's bad enough to see people breeding purebred dogs that are not breedworthy, but breeding mixed breeds to sell is just pathetic.

Crappy breeders are a pet peeve of mine (and of many others, I know). I sure wish that the kennel clubs would increase the criteria for registration and add in higher levels of performance titles/health certifications to help weed out the [email protected] breeders. But then they'd just register through some garbage registry anyhow. Seems like the general public tends to be very ignorant - if they'd bother to take the time to research and listen to those with true experience, maybe fewer would support these "breeders".

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Melanie, the pups were actually inside somewhere. I know the pictures are no longer there, but the wall was painted in the picture with the pups. There was no hay in the pic with the pups. It was not the outdoor kennel shelter. She has a couple of pictures of two dogs looking perfectly fine in a shelter that had some hay in it. We do not know the whole story. It could have been march when that picture was snapped after the first major thaw. Who knows. Definitely back yard breeder, but not a puppy mill in my opinion. 

No one wants to condone pumping out more puppies for the sake of pumping out puppies whether mixed or pure bred. However, I believe that it is not right to let things pass like:
1) calling someone with two dogs and a litter of pups a puppy mill; 
2) suggesting that people with dog houses with bedding change the bedding daily; 
3) seeing a bitch with whelps out of coat and determining that they are obvious scumbags; 
4) reading a dog's mind and KNOWING that the dog is so very sad;
5) a suggestion that people violate property rights by providing poison to the pups to keep them from getting pregnant. 

Other than the quality of the hay, the pictures show almost nothing terrible when it comes to actual animal husbandry. The fact that the dogs are not registered places the people in a BYB category. There is a strong market for dogs that are cheap. I am not defending it, it is a fact. A lot of people do not care about papers and would rather spend 100-200 for a puppy, or get one free from a friend or relative. These are people that reputable breeders hear from all the time and don't even have to turn down, when they year the price of your dogs, they never call back. 

But if their were no cheap dogs down the road, these are buyers that most reputable breeders wouldn't want to sell to. I do not know there there is any legal means to deal with people who have one or two dogs and a litter now and again. They can make mandatory speuter laws, but there is no way they could enforce it, at least not until after the bitch has pups, at which point they already exist. 


************************************************
Jenn, Babsy is allowed on my bed so she is not being defiant. I only kick her off when I am changing the sheets.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Sorry, but if it were me, I would not hesitate to take matters into my own hands in a crappy situation like this.
No, nobody here "thinks" they know better, they do. I've found everyone in this forum to be helpful and knowledgeable and caring, not judgmental. 
The neighbors sound extremely ignorant and it's only the puppies that will suffer and ultimately die for it.
I really see no point in defending them. They obviously don't care about those puppies and even let the kids hit them with sticks!
This is a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. OP will have to deal with dogs that are probably going to be off-leash, un-socialized, fearful/aggressive, nuisance barkers, etc. The list goes on and on.

If I saw a chance to kidnap these dogs, I would. Turn them into a shelter and go through all the steps to adopt them myself, or adopt them to a responsible person that I trusted.

We don't know those pictures are from a puppy mill, what we do know is that there was a bad vibe with the whole situation. I really see no point in defending them either. 
Sounds like they were in it for the money and I wouldn't be surprised if those dogs were in fact neglected. In my experience in those situations, that's always been the case.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that as a site, we should never encourage people to break the law. 

If you steal the dogs (you cannot kidnap property), then you could go to JAIL. 

Encouraging people to do something that could give them a permanent record is not intelligent.

My x-landlord had a dog that was chained in her garage and had a trolley that she could go out with. The dog was not in the house at all. They did not take the dog anywhere, nope, not even to the vet for shots or anything. And one day my neighbor told me that she was in the family way. 

The next day she had a single puppy. 

Singletons are hard to raise anyway and have their own set of challenges. I thought that this pup would be a disaster. 

It turned out to be the most calm, sweet, confident pup I have ever met. I have NO idea why that is the case. 

People have been having litters of pups since dogs have been domesticated. Most turn out ok in spite of people's inept handling. With the human monsters in this case, that would really be surprising, but it does not justify breaking the law. 

If you break the law for what you think is right, then you are in the same class with PETA and other extremists. 

Some rescue person is going to chime in about how all the puppies that come in have serious behavior issues. I would not doubt that that would be the case, but those are only pups that have been turned it. There are many litters raised each year by people that do not turn them into rescues or shelters. 

I guess my issue here is the "the sky is falling attitude." The situation is not good, and hopefully the owners will be convinced it is a bad idea. That will go a lot farther than stealing the pups. If you steal them, they will replace them with more pups. No lesson learned. But even if the pups grow up and have a litter, the sun will come up tomorrow. Most likely, with a couple of brats to manage, they will find that raising puppies is a pain in the neck, and finding out how little they will yeild, they will then get the animals fixed. There are bigger fish to fry in the dog world. 

If it weren't against the law, I would hurdle the fence, pull the stick out of the kid's hand, and whack them several times with it on the backside, and then ask him if he thinks that is fun? 

Or better yet, I would pull the stick out of the kid's hand and whack the parent with it several time and ask him why he is not bothering to watch his kid.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I'm simply stating what I would do, and I'm entitled to do so. 
I would not walk into their property and risk getting myself arrested. On that note... Please do not try this at home








Anyway, chances are though that these dogs are going to get lose at some point.
Untrained and unmanageable dogs often end up outside and dogs on tie outs sometimes get loose.
If and when that happened I would swoop in for the kill. Wow, that sounds bad... I would take them. 
I would put them in the local shelter and when nobody spoke for them, adopt/foster them.

To the OP, I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Don't beat yourself up too hard, you tried to educate them. Hopefully, they will change their ways thanks to your help.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my mamma always taught me that two wrongs don't make a right


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Also in situations like the OP's neighbors. If one of the dogs or pups went missing, they probably would not even look for it. 

That would be awesome if there was a test people had to take before they could own a dog. 
(I guess we would need one for people to take to have kids too). 

Now I am really dreaming.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I have always raised my baby animals on fresh clean straw from puppies to horses to rabbits. Straw is less dusty than shavings, is easily cleaned when they poop and pee without having to toss out all the bedding and is warm and comfortable to sleeping baby animals, or older animals that like to lay down a lot. I have found it a lot more efficient than blankets or towels that they pee on or chew up and swallow. I like the way it keeps their fur or hair clean and it has such a nice clean smell. I of course use shavings for the horses when they get older and the dogs move on to their own dog beds, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with using straw and in fact I started using it after having horses in Hospitals where the vets preferred it for preventing infections to newborn navels, or risking infections to injuries from dirt or shavings, the bottom line is to have a clean, safe, dry environment for your puppies or other animals.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

The pics in question are gone now. So it is a mute point. But the conditions were not clean and dry. 

It is NOT the neighbors using the hay. That was pics from Craigs list. A breeder. 

The neighbors just want their mixed breed dogs to have pups and sell them. On Craigs list. Because they think they can make money or something. Like the title of the thread, ignorance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I was a kid living in Cleveland, (I moved out here when I was ten), we had a dog that lived in the garage with a house and a chain. It was always chained. It was outside night and day, summer and winter. 

One day the old man next door called the authorities about the dog's life. They came out and saw that he had shelter, food, water, and his poop was not overwhelming because my dad did clean it. My dad was there and the AC officer said that the dog was fine and the neighbor was nuts. 

One day Perky was not there. 

We searched the neighborhood. My brother and I took two busses across town to go to the pound to look for him. They electrocuted dogs in Cleveland then. You could smell the pound from the bus stop. We could not find him. We went several times, but not having any money we could not go daily. My dad went several times too. But we never found him. They sometimes euthed dogs before three days were up in Cleveland. They had been caught a couple of times. Since perky was a hairy beagle mix, non-descript in every way, just a city mutt, it is possible that they didn't bother to give him the time due him. The idea that someone may have taken him off his chain and dropped him off, that would have been a death sentence. 

People back then got puppies from a house with a sign that said "free puppies." People did not generally go out of their way to go to the pound. It was one of the worst experiences in my life, looking for my dog there. 

The idea that someone may have felt Perky was better off electrocuted than living at our house, where children were in and out all the time and much attention was actually paid to the dog is kind of disgusting. 

I do not keep my dogs as we kept Perky and later, Princess. But both Perky and Princess had a good life with us even though much of it was chained. Princess was a shepherd/hound mix that came to us as a stray when still a puppy. She was calm and gentle, and had no behavior problems. She was not a nuisance barker, whiner, did not get hot spots from chewing on herself. She never had a litter because we did have her spayed. She had stomach cancer at eighteen months and was not supposed to live more than six months to a year after the surgery. We did do the surgery and she had a full life. We put her down at fourteen. 

I am always amazed at the attitude of many people, mostly purebred dog owners, that believe that because they are mutts, or because they primarily live outside, or because they have been used for breeding, owners simply do not care about them and will not bother to go and look for them. I can just imagine people with toy dogs that dress them up and carry them around in purses, that they probably think that we large dog owners are heathens that do not care about our dogs.


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## SpeedBump (Dec 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> One day Perky was not there.


Good possibility she did not end up at the pound but ended up living somewhere not on a chain. We had a neighbor who another neighbor rehomed two of his dogs that were kept chained outside. Those dogs were completely ignored though so were not even sure how long it was before they were missed.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI....If you break the law for what you think is right, then you are in the same class with PETA and other extremists.


Or Ghandi or Martin Luther King or Margaret Sanger or Susan Anthony.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think I would put Ghandi and company in the same category as PETA. There is a difference between fanatical and having ideals for equal rights. Would you put them in the same company as Hitler? He was an extremist also.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I grew up with a GSD that was mainly an outside dog. My parents kept her chained to a dog house mostly. I think at one point she got a pen. 

She hardly ever saw a vet. Was allowed to have two litters of puppies. That we gave away. 

Even as a child I felt it was wrong. I would beg my father to let her in constantly. I won a lot of times. 








She had her puppies in a barn with hay too. 
I would have been DEVASATED if someone took her from us. 

Still I would not continue to defend people or my parents for treating a dog wrong. 

When you know better you do better. 

Here in Missouri there are tons of situations that are poor quality in my eyes as far as "dog care". But I know the AC if called will say that they are fine. They see worse, I know. 

I COULD NOT run a rescue or shelter. I would probably NEVER give anyone a dog because I would exspect everyone to treat them as a member of their family. 

I have someone at my church wanting me to help them find a dog. They told me flat out, this will be an outside dog. So, I told her sorry I cannot help you. Good luck. I will help you if you agree that it will be inside part of the time at least.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986The pics in question are gone now. So it is a mute point. But the conditions were not clean and dry.


I can repost these if anyone wants to see them, I just deleted them off my facebook and totally forgot it would effect them here!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This was better than thirty years ago in Cleveland, in a neighborhood where dogs living outside on chains was the norm. 

It was a nondescript, untrained, heathen of a dog, a beagle mixture decades before puggles. 

Signs for free puppies were everywhere, no reason for someone to steal a dog. 

Most likely it got loose and got run over. The idea that people in their omniscient wisdom would "rehome" a dog without permission is repulsive to me. A dog is considered property, and if you remove property without permision, the remover and the owner of the new home would both be guilty of a criminal offence, one for theft, the other for receiving stolen property. 

There is a difference between civil disobedience -- refusing to stand in the back of a bus, and theft. Stealing a living being for whatever reason is horrendous. 

Think about it. You have a dog, sitting on a chain all day, all night, has no idea of life beyond the line that holds him. It is doing the dog a kindness to remove it. Ok, maybe a good number of people can be convinced of that. 

So what is next? A dog is used for breeding, has had two litters in two years. No dog should be forced to have litter after litter for humans. It will be a kindness to remove it and get it spayed and rehome it. I think that only a few rather extreme people on this site would not see the harm in this.

And where does it stop? A dog is sitting in a crate in a car at a dog show waiting for its moment in the ring. What an awful life for a dog, forced to be bathed with smelly shampoos and not allowed to run through fields and swim in rivers. Let's just open the crate and let it go, or lets get it out of here, surely euthanasia is better than what this poor beast goes through. 

It really doesn't matter what you do with your dog, how you treat your dog, where you take your dog, another person may thing that's just awful, and may think they have the RIGHT to RESCUE that dog from you. 

Do you crate your dog?
Do you use a prong collar, a choke chain, a halti collar, an e-collar?
Do you do schutzhund with your dog, the helper with the stick thing?
Do you do agility with your dog?
Do you do obedience with your dog?
Do you hunt with a dog?

It really doesn't matter what you do, there is someone out there that cannot believe that the dog LOVES what he is doing. They see the dogs from very human perpectives and have no capacity to view it as a dog that can't wait to get out their on the field with the guy in a bite suit. 

Lets encourage people to STEAL dogs from people that they don't see eye to eye with.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I would only re-home a dog that had very sad living conditions... i.e. a dog that is living on a chain for it's entire life, gets beaten, is neglected, gets loose all the time etc. 
If a dog gets loose, and I KNEW that his living conditions were less than favorable, I would see no reason NOT to put him in a shelter and adopt him myself if he was not spoken for. After that, this dog is MY "property". 
I also don't see dogs as property, but that's another discussion for another day.
20-30 years ago this was acceptable, but times have changed. It's known that dogs thrive with human interaction and depriving them of that, NOW, in this day and age IS viewed as cruel.
Like someone else said, when you know better you do better.

People have more sense than to re-home a dog that is working and living with their humans. They have no reason to complain then. 
If a dog is used for breeding, fine. No problem. But if the dog was used for breeding and had to have the max amount of litters a year, lived outside, was neglected, malnourished, beaten, etc. etc. It's a different story.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is a different story for you. There are other people out there that believe if a dog has just one litter they are being mistreated and need to be rescued. There are people out there that believe ANY dog living with people and forced to sit or down or stay on command are being mistreated and should be "saved."

We live in a society with laws. What this means is that if I do not like how you treat your horse or your dog or your kid, I can look at the law and decide whether there is an infraction and if there is, I can call the authorities. But if there is no infraction, I cannot do anything about the situation save discuss it with the people and offer advice or help. 

If a dog is being treated cruelly in your opinion, but not in the eyes of the law, you must step back and work to change the law. Because is somebody else's opinion, your dogs might be treated cruelly and they may feel compelled to do something drastic about it. 

If a dog is running loose, and you call AC or drop the dog at the shelter, that is legal. Is it being a good neighbor? No. If you are Christian or Jew, is it Biblical? No. (There is a whole load of stuff in there about if your neighbor's animal gets loose and what your responsibility is, given though, there were no animal shelters back then.) In your opinion it may be morally right, and you are the only person who has to wake up you every day. Will it improve the situation? For that one dog, maybe. But the people will just get another puppy and treat it the same. At some point you will run out of space for taking on all of your neighbor's dogs. At that point you will have to ask yourself if the pup is better off being euthanized. 

I find it much more effective to gather up your neighbor's dog when it is loose, and wait for him to return or take it back. They are usually thankful and appologetic and usually open to hearing a few very well timed and nonjudgemental suggestions that COULD put them in the right direction with regards to the dog. 

I have only had one neighbor that NOTHING worked with.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:I am always amazed at the attitude of many people (...) that believe that (...) because they primarily live outside (...) owners simply do not care about them and will not bother to go and look for them.


What is the point of owning a dog, when the dog's entire life consists of being chained to a dog house (or locked in a garage), like some odd furry lawn ornament?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Different people are different. I have benefitted by my family owning outdoor dogs. But I would have benefitted more by them owning indoor dogs.

Every dog has a personality and bonds with its owners. Even outdoor dogs can be beloved by their families. I think the real losers are the people though, because owning outdoor dogs is very different than owning indoor dogs. I think people who own indoor dogs appreciate their expression and character a lot more than those who have a dog in the yard. 

Dogs can certainly thrive without ever setting foot inside their owners house. 

Why have cats in the yard? Why have rabbits in a cage in the garage? Why have fish in an aquarium? Why have a bird in a cage? Why have a horse or a donkey or a pony or a miniature horse? Is it an ornament for your field? 

Princess passed on more than a dozen years ago, and we still talk about her. Everyone LOVED princess. She guarded our house and the old lady across the street's house, and yet my tiny four year old sister could go out, leash her and keep her away from the big bad meter reader lady. Many a midnight walks, she was my companion, and was rewarded at the end with a chocolate donut. (I know, the dog should have never made it to fourteen.) My dad talked to her every day before work and after coming home from work, and took care of her basic needs. My brother entered her in 4-H and did obedience training with her. Her tail was a weapon. Everyone coming and going would stop and talk to Princess. At any given time there were up to ten people living here. 

And when her time came, there was a crowd of us at the vet saying good bye to her and being with her at the end. 

The idea that people cannot be fond of or care for an animal that does not live inside their home is foreign to me. It is kind of like saying that if the dog isn't allowed to share your bed, you really do not care about it.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on things. 

I have noticed, however, that whenever there is a thread on dogs being housed primarily outside or a thread about bad breeding or backyard breeding, you seem to jump in to defend those practices. 

I don't know whether this is because you are taking these threads personal because your dogs do stay outside in their kennels a lot, or because you have a lot of dogs, or because you do breed but don't do Schutzhund or herding, but it does seem strange to me that you are so defensive on the subject.

I see a lot of defensiveness from you on this thread as well, along with anecdotal evidence of where outside dogs were loved and cared for even though they were not allowed in the house. 

"That's like saying that if the dog isn't allowed to share your bed, you really do not care about it," is your argument. That's a far cry from the reality for most outdoor dogs. Where I live, most outdoor dogs are chained to wooden dog houses, the area they can move in having so much wear there's no grass left. They're outside no matter what the weather is. Their coats are matted and disgusting looking. Maybe once every couple weeks I see someone actually outside in the yard with the dog, doing yard work or plopping down a bowl of water, not taking the dog to 4-H or grooming or taking them for a walk. These dogs are not "thriving" as you suggest many outdoor dogs do. As a matter of fact, most outdoor dogs are not "thriving" because these are the conditions most outdoor dogs live in. 

You are actually arguing that it is better for a dog that has been chained for x amount of its life to remain chained, rather than be unchained and be shown what it's like to be with people, to have a warm house to go into, and leashed walks to take with a person. It's an adjustment for the dog, and a big one, but dogs can and do adjust, and many rescued dogs, whether they've come from abusive homes or chained homes or homes where they've been neglected turn out to be some of the best dogs in a good home. 

My Malinois was abused and kept in a garage, pumping out puppies. Do you seriously think it would be kinder for her to have remained in that place because that is "what she's known all her life"? If so, all I can say is, you've got to be kidding me!

There are extremists everywhere who want no animal to be owned, chained or otherwise, or who want no pain used at all, whether it comes from a stick to beat the dog with or a choke collar or even a head halter. Just because some extremists are against everything does not make it any more or less wrong to keep a dog on a chain its entire life, with little to no human interaction.

That's like saying, "100 years ago, kids were forced to work in the mines and factories by age 12, and girls were forced to marry older men by age 15 - but they turned out okay and there was nothing wrong with the way they lived. Hey, there are some people now who are saying it's cruel to expect a child to do certain chores for a specific number of hours a week. So, where do you draw the line? Either you're against everything and just let them be kids, or you have to concede that most kids 100 years ago were well loved and turned out just fine."

Sorry, it does not work that way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Who exactly is being black and white? I am saying that it is wrong to suggest people break the law to steal a dog off a chain. 

I do not think it is responsible to condone that thinking. 

We do not know if the person reading the thread is an adult who can read the thread and choose for themselves or a kid whose passion might just win out over his better sense. 

People make the statement that the people would not even notice the dog is gone. This is BS. I have lived with outdoor dogs and know that NO ONE can KNOW that nobody will miss the dog, unless the dog is clearly physically neglected/abandonned.

Not everyone that chains the dog out back, does nothing more with it.

This thread is disturbing because people are suggesting poisoning the puppies with birth control, and stealing the puppies. I am supposed to sit here and shut up because you want to agree to disagree. 

There is irresponsibility all over the place, not just in the dregs of society that neglect and abuse their dogs. It is not just in the ne're-do-well's with the loose aggressive dog, and the husky mix bitch breeding over and over again. It is not just in hoarders homes where they let the number of animals overwhelm them and cannot managed to turn any away. 

When I see people being irresponsible with advice, suggesting that people vandalize, supplement, steal, what have you, I am going to speak against that crap. And when I hear people saying that the owners wouldn't notice and wouldn't care, I have to step up there too and ask the question, how do you know? 

I do have a lot of dogs and for sure, some over-zealous nutcase may BELIEVE that my dogs are misused by being outside while I am gone, or by being bred. I prefer to nip that garbage in the bud. 

Nobody from the outside looking in would know the time and care I put into every one of my dogs. Your d--- right this kind of stuff makes me defensive. If ANYONE is mistreating a dog in a measureable way, where it is against the law, by all means go to the authorities, don't steal the dog or feed it birth control. 

Historian, for your information, I do Rally, Obedience, Herding, Agility, and Therapy work with my dogs. I just got Rushie's therapy test, but I have been doing therapy with Arwen for years. 
No I do not do Schutzhund with my dogs. I do not have any desire to do so. And that should not be the only measure to be used when considering whether or not to breed your dogs.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereBack to the original issue here -- How ethical would it be to start giving the pups treats - and at the appropriate age slip the female some doggie birth control pills in a treat? Just a question mind you...





> Originally Posted By: StarryNite...
> Your neighbors don't sound very intelligent to begin with so I am not sure logic will work on them. I am a fan of birth control in the treats idea, didn't know they made that





> Originally Posted By: DenaliFofali...
> If I saw a chance to kidnap these dogs, I would. Turn them into a shelter and go through all the steps to adopt them myself, or adopt them to a responsible person that I trusted.





> Originally Posted By: selzerWho exactly is being black and white? I am saying that it is wrong to suggest people break the law to steal a dog off a chain.
> ...
> This thread is disturbing because people are suggesting poisoning the puppies with birth control, and stealing the puppies. I am supposed to sit here and shut up because you want to agree to disagree.
> ...
> ...


 I agree with Sue. Condoning illegal behavior is wrong! If a dog's running loose, take him to the shelter. If a dog's being mistreated, report it to animal control. 

Stealing an animial is illegal and anyone doing so should be arrested and prosecuted. 

Suggesting that someone give an animal medication without an owner's permission is wrong. And anyone following this ill conceived advice should be arrested and prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license or whatever laws apply in this type of situation.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I always find ethics discussions interesting.

For me it is not right to have a caged bird. I'd love a myna because they are fascinating but I don't think it is right to have one as a captive pet. I don't think it is right to turn a bird that has known captivity all of it's life loose to the wild either. Faced with that decision, I would keep the bird captive. Basically where this is going is to point out that moral or ethical choices are seldom so prettily black and white as "should" implies. 

If I remember correctly, these people have a crappy history with dogs. They are planning to do something that horrifies many of us. Alternatives to make this action impossible have been discussed. None of them are totally "pretty." Any action the OP chooses to take will not be taken lightly. It's a dilemma - many choices you face in life are. 

Years ago a neighbor decided to breed her purebred cat because her granddaughter wanted a kitten from that cat. It was an expensive outcome but the cat had one kitten, the kitten didn't live, the cat almost died. The cat was spayed and they bought the GD a kitten. Perhaps they will have a tragic first breeding with dead get and a spayed bitch.

If there is any "shoulds" to apply it is that we "should" recognize that moral / ethics questions when in anything but the abstract are usually quite complicated. How much do you impose your views/will on someone else? In this case, exercising their rights (letting pups multiply wildly), impacts the op at least indirectly by pumping more pups into a heavily over populated situation. Is it direct enough to justify preemptive action?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere...
> If I remember correctly, these people have a crappy history with dogs. They are planning to do something that horrifies many of us. Alternatives to make this action impossible have been discussed. None of them are totally "pretty." Any action the OP chooses to take will not be taken lightly. It's a dilemma - many choices you face in life are.
> ...If there is any "shoulds" to apply it is that we "should" recognize that moral / ethics questions when in anything but the abstract are usually quite complicated. How much do you impose your views/will on someone else? In this case, exercising their rights (letting pups multiply wildly), impacts the op at least indirectly by pumping more pups into a heavily over populated situation. Is it direct enough to justify preemptive action?


Caging a mynah bird today isn't illegal though that may change in the future. If you consider it's an immoral act to keep a bird caged, then it's up to you and your conscious to continue to keep it caged, allow it to fly around the house hoping it doesn't land on a hot stove or get wedged behind a heavy piece of furniture, give it to someone who can care for it in an appropriate aviary you deem large enough that it would be happy, or if it's legal, send it to the species land of origin to be set free albit it would probably meet an unpleasant death with its wild cousins.

I see nothing abstract about advocating that people take the law into their own hands to prevent a dog from becomming pregnant by giving it medication without the owner's permission or by stealing it. IMHO breaking the law, or urging others to break the law, is not justification to prevent a dog owner from doing something really stupid like breeding it. 

Using moral/ethics abstracts can be used with any law on the books - robbery, rape, murder, stealing dogs, practicing medicine without a license, whatever. Who's morals? Who's ethics are you going to apply when advocating breaking laws that people don't like or wish to follow?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

This is discussion has raised a question for me, something I have been thinking about and need to look up for Missouri. 

If there is a law for how many animals you can have on your property. Do the puppies count??? 

If you need a license to breed. AND you do not have one, doesnt the animal count come into play??? 

I would think so. 

OP if you are still around following this thread. Which we have been all over the place, so you may not be.....You can look up how many animals are allowed, and inform them, breeding would put them over. 

IF we all want to stay within the law, well let's find the law we need to stop this stinking idoit crap!!!! 

They may need a license to do this in the OP's community.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Usually, the limit laws apply to dogs over 3 months old, and some over six months. 

Usually, at least in Ohio, what they are doing is perfectly legal without a license or whatever, so long as the dogs are licensed no special permit would be needed to breed them. If you have dogs primarily for breeding or hunting, you need a kennel license. But that is Ohio. I have one because I am in business, and because it is cheaper here to have the kennel license than to buy licenses for each dog. 

The law is kind of funny here, if you advertise puppies, than you are considered a breeder and need a kennel license. But most people put a sign in the front yard or drag the litter to a shopping plaza and give them away and they never need any license whatsoever. Well, they need dog licenses, but since they cannot come looking for unlicensed dogs, and the penalty is just a double license fee if they did come out for another reason and found the dog had no license. So, unless you are stupid like me and want to follow the law however stupid it is, you really do not need any type of license for this sort of thing in Ohio. 

So typically, a limit law would not come into effect unless they started keeping the puppies.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm hoping the two puppies they're planning on breeding aren't related...? 
People who won't sterilize their dogs, and don't know anything about them and want to breed more mutts...should be sterilized. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't care. OOOOO people make me so mad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Believe it or not, THAT would do something postive about the problem. I truly believe more of our attitudes about pets are inherited than we would like to believe. I am guessing nurture over nature, but sterilizing the human element will in time solve the problem. 

Better yet, if you let it out that anyone who lets their mutts tie is mandatorily sterilized, it may make people a little more responsible.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

The problem is so huge... I have so many thoughts on it, many wouldn't agree with and maybe some would, I don't know...

I think it comes down to human responsibility and a bit of "meant to be" from the powers that be. Let me explain... 

since the beginning of time we have tried to controll everything as human beings from people to every living thing. thinning out deer by giving hunting licenses, killing prairy dogs, and in the past killing off the wolf for farmers. In the end our control doesn't really change things much if you haven't noticed...besides killing off whole species only to come back and call then "extinct" and then think we did something great when they have enough to get off the ES list... 

May be a puppy that saved a kids life bred from some "ignorant" backyard breeder. Then there are dogs suffering awfully from other backyard breeders we need to shut down... It seems like random chaos.... at least to me it does

I agree we need to stop these "backyard breeders" and pet stores should not sell pups but at the same time we need to look at ourselves as people and stop calling people who buy from pet stores "stupid" etc.... in fact the people that buy them, even though we don't want to support "puppy mills" are usually just every day good people just getting a puppy. They are not stupid or wrong or bad... Maybe the source is but the buyer isn't.

The blanket statements I believe need to stop. I have judged myself and learned that maybe I was wrong... I most likely was! If people have a male and female dog and they have pups and they find them good homes than maybe those pups grow up happy and healthy and some say "mutts" are the best dogs their are.

I just think we need to look at in individual basis and stop the constant judging of every single person who's animals breed. I agree we have too many in shelters and too many euthanized but that is mostly from irresponsible humans. So we need to look more at US as dog owners and raisers and not so much at the pups. 

I think it is wrong to judge every pet store and every person buying from a pet store as well as people who have two great dogs and those dogs have pups. Not many are actual "breeders" where that is their life meaning showing, planning out litters, etc. . 

And what about rescue shelters charging upwards of $200 for a dog? What average family can afford that? My hubby and I were in petsmart the other day and they had an adult tabby that was very sweet that my daughter wanted and we looked at the price "200 adoption fee" what is up with that? Even when they are spayed/neutured before they got them and 6+ years old... how do they expect to adopt them out at that fee?

I got Lulu from basically a family who had a male and female gsd and they had pups. The dad was registered and the mom was not since she was white and couldn't be "shown" so they never registered her. Lou, so far, is one of the most amazing dogs I have ever had the honor to share my life with and she is not show quality and didn't come from a reputable breeder, just a family with two GSD's who had pups. Her temperment is perfect she was housebroken in 4 days and so far has proved to be absolutely amazing as far as temperment and intelligence and beauty. 

It's sort of like how we take one thing and then expand on it. Like thinking spanking your child is child abuse. Now, the belief is that if you get a pup from anyone other than someone who has a lineage of dogs and devotes their life to these dogs than the dogs shouldn't be in existence. I am not sure I am being clear here, I just don't think we can "control" as much as we would like to or should. 

I have seen the puppy mills on tv that everyone is talking about and it is AWFUL! But EVERY pet store and every purebred dog not from a breeder who shows, and makes a business out of it is not a bad person. 

I just think we need to stop trying to control so much and just help where help is needed... sorry, this is just my personal opinion...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: ArycrestCaging a mynah bird today isn't illegal though that may change in the future. If you consider it's an immoral act to keep a bird caged, then it's up to you and your conscious to continue to keep it caged, allow it to fly around the house hoping it doesn't land on a hot stove or get wedged behind a heavy piece of furniture, give it to someone who can care for it in an appropriate aviary you deem large enough that it would be happy, or if it's legal, send it to the species land of origin to be set free albit it would probably meet an unpleasant death with its wild cousins.


Sorry, my take on the caged birds issue is a bit different. Since I think there is a moral issue involved in having a caged bird, I do not have a bird such as a mynah. I do not support capturing wild birds to cage them, and I am uncomfortable about raising a captive born bird and maintaining it in captivity. Nor do I keep a captive crow although I think crows are amazing.

For me there are ethical issues about breeding unproven dogs when many dogs are euthanized for nothing more than lack of a home. When I look at the stats about how fast a population grows if left to breed without interfearance, I find it quite sobering.

This is an abstract discussion because only one person here is faced with the situation directly. The rest of us are tossing thoughts around about the issue. While it may not be true for anyone else on the board, I believe that I do not really know what action I will take unless I have been in that situation before. I can tell you what I have done in the past in a given situation, I can tell you some options that would come to mind, but I cannot tell you what I would do unless I am in the situaiton or have been in it before.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Just remember you can't fix STUPID


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't believe you can just say "stupid" and go on with your life. That is judgement and you have to prove that judgement if you are to judge at all. 

I have saved countless dogs in my life that I have found or been given by people, etc. Every one, save one, has gotten a wonderful home from my efforts. and that one that I don't believe did, I still go stalk out his house and watch it to see how the dog looks, etc. several months later. I know, I am a dog stalker, but it kills me that I may not have found that dog the home I thought I did, that maybe I didn't see the guy who got him as clearly as I should have and that I want to get the dog back and re-home him or keep him...

I just don't get the "breeding unproven dogs" unless you are talking about a breeder who has a lineage of dogs who are hostile or something. What IS proven in life? Does that mean if my mom and dad were horrible people that I will be one as well? Are dogs diff than us in that respect? 

I just don't buy that. I think that every living being has an individual spirit and we are taught negative behaviors in the end. I think we all have a choice and I think the pups do as well.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

StarryNite, 
I understand what you are saying completely. Even dogs born in puppy mills, born from BYBs...even the lovable precious mutts, deserve a good home. That's all I want. I want every animal to have a safe, loving home. While I know that is not possible, it's my dream...I love ALL animals. I've never met an animal that I didn't love. Mind you I've been bit very severely by a dog before, I even loved him. All of them.
That's why it PAINS me inside and out realizing how many FANTASTIC animals will never have a chance to show people how amazing they are, because they get euth'd way too early in a shelter. They can never live up to what they were meant to be, some have suffered their whole lives and will never know...a loving touch...or how happy they'd feel when their special person first gets home. What makes me mad, is people letting their dogs breed rampantly just contributing over and over, making more animals when there is not even enough homes for the precious animals that are already here...getting murdered every single day. No matter what happens to me, no matter how far behind I am, no matter if I lost my job, my home, whatever...nothing will ever affect me and my sanity like the animals who get euthanized daily due to humans irresponsibility. It is making me crazy, because there is no way to stop it. Through hard work, we can reduce it, but never STOP it. It will just keep happening, and happening...I feel very helpless in the matter. I don't mean to sound too harsh, or judgemental, because in all actually I always feel somewhat bad for 'ignorant' people. Even ones who torture animals, I feel for them knowing they must have a tortured soul to be able to do something like that. Ignorant does not mean 'stupid' to me, it means they are either uneducated or unaware of certain things that I find VERY important. Meaning they don't know any better, or don't have the means to care even if they did know better. How much longer will animals have to suffer and die on our account? Animals who give us so much, and ask for very little in return. I see people take advantage of everything good in their lives over and over, and yes, I am upset about it. That will never change. I am not a bad person, though. Just overly sensitive, and way too compassionate for my own good.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Yah, I'm with ya Bella, I feel the same way and it's awful. I certainly don't think pets should have litter after litter but I think if the owner is responsible and makes sure the pups find great homes than that is not so bad. I also think the shelters should charge a lot less. When I went to the shelter here a few months back there were a whole bunch of people looking for dogs and about every single dog cage said "unavailable" for whatever reason, everyone was confused as to why they could not adopt any of the dogs. I also overheard another family talking who said they could not afford the fee (of $250!!!) and they left. I remember when I was a kid and it cost about $50 or less to adopt an animal out of the shelter. Thousands of animals are not getting the homes they deserve because of the outrageous fees the shelters and rescues charge









I feel SO badly because I was out of town this weekend and someone called me to say they found Max, the dog I rescued and rehomed to the home I later found out "might not" (I don't know for sure) be a great place for him. He had got out of his fence AGAIN and the guy hasn't even bothered to change his tag from my name and number to his after 4 months! I was upset because I was out of town and couldn't come get him. I have tried to contact this guy multiple times and he won't respond to me even though we had a deal that he would keep in touch with me on Max's progress. *sigh* it's a moral delima for me. If someone calls again and he gets out again should I just take him home and not tell the guy or bring him back to the guy? I don't think I could bring him back to him in good concious... I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Anyway, I guess I am talking more about all the threads I have seen here where so many people call people "stupid" for buying dogs from pet stores or private people who aren't breeders. I am sure those dogs have great homes and not all people who breed their dogs are irresponsible as long as it's not a puppy mill or the dogs aren't mistreated. I know the overpopulation is a HUGE problem and it's awful and I think there are many diff. levels to solving it from lowering the prices to making them more readily available. The sad fact is that you can buy a puppy much cheaper on craigslist than at the pound and THIS is what people look at especially in today's economy. I don't think it's right at all but if the shelters and rescues would make the pets more affordable than maybe they would all find homes!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

StarryNite - I think things may be a little different in your immediate geographical area, but throughout the south and southeast as well as large parts of the midwest, there is no shortage of dogs. Shelters are full to the gills, rescues are full to the gills, and a majority of dogs surrendered to shelters die there, including thousands of perfectly healthy puppies.

As far as adoption fees - no, that's not the reason animals don't get homes. With very rare exception, rescues and shelters charge an adoption fee based on the vetting the animal has received. An animal with a $200 adoption fee has likely received vetting that would cost the adopter much more than that if they had to do it out of pocket. If an adopter can't afford the adoption fee, they also can't afford what it would cost to vaccinate, hw test (or FIV test for cats), deworm, spay/neuter etc. for a free puppy or kitten. Giving them one for free just adds another unaltered unvetted animal into the population which is counterproductive if you're trying to reduce the number of animals dying in shelters. And rescues are run by volunteers on donations - few get everything they spend on an animal back in the adoption fee, but they have to get enough to keep the rescue going or they can't save anymore animals. I live where spays/neuters and vetting are relatively inexpensive but my group still spends several hundred dollars on every animal we rescue, considerably more when you start averaging out the cost of even a single case of heartworms or parvo.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I am sure those dogs have great homes and not all people who breed their dogs are irresponsible as long as it's not a puppy mill or the dogs aren't mistreated.


Except that nearly all the puppies in petstores DO come from puppy mills, so...



> Quote: I don't think it's right at all but if the shelters and rescues would make the pets more affordable than maybe they would all find homes!


Nope, not so much! Come on down to KY and I can take you to shelters were every animal in the place is free! One shelter in particular has a sign out front saying that if no one is there, just come on in and take what you want. Know what their euth rate is? Close to 100%. Giving their animals away is making their problem worse, not better, because those animals are leaving the shelter unaltered and their descendents are making sure it stays full. 

You seem like a caring person but one who hasn't had much experience in this area. I would encourage you to find out more about shelters, rescues, and pet overpopulation - it's causes and its solutions. What you discover might surprise you.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Thank you pupresq for showing up here and responding to all of that. 

My head was spinning as to how I was going to cover all that. You did it very well. 

I have learned so much about rescue in the last year and 1/2 that other people do not know, and I wish they did, I want them to know. 

EDUCATION is key. Why rescues charge fees, how they work, what they do....etc. The difference between good rescues and bad ones. Because there are BAD ones. 

I have said it before and I will say it again. Breeding just needs to stop until this problem is to a more managable. PERIOD. 

I know there are WONDERFUL breeders that do everything right. Freeze it (eggs or whatever, we have the technology, **** we are cloning) Until NO MORE DOGS or CATS are dying. 

I am volunteering for 3 different organizations right now. One rescue that does not have it together, I am trying to help the dogs, it is overwhelming.
1 rescue that really does have it together, saved the life of a dog, that was left to it's own in a back yard, kept getting out, so the neighbor would return it, time and time again, until they just though ENOUGH, treated it's fleas, and took it to a rescue. Owner never claimed it, it is headed for a wonderful life. 

The other is a low cost spay and neuter clinic. Which is doing wonderful things. I cannot believe some people's attitude on this! 

It is not only spay and neutering. 

It is also, teaching people to do activities with their dogs. This helps the dogs be happier. 

OP, make sure your neighbors dogs are licensed. IF not turn them in....


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

Even if rescues adoption rates are 'high'...it is way less money than a puppy from a pet store, and you're getting more for your money because they have all their vet work already done. And thinking that more animals would find homes, and less would die if the fees were less...many animals are euth'd before ever being put up for adoption in our shelters and pounds. Many are killed immediately after they are surrendered...so that really wouldn't help this issue. Rescues are non-profit. They don't make high fees to make money, the fees are to recover some but not ALL of the money they have put into the animal, and to help pay for the next rescued animal that will be coming in. I have, as I'm sure many others have, spent money out of pocket to treat or help a rescue animal. Not only do we volunteer our time, but we lose money if certain situations occur, and we do it with a smile. We don't get anything in return, except the knowledge that we saved a life, and gave that life another chance to be happy, and that's the biggest reward that there is. At a petstore, you pay what...$500-1000 roughly, for an unvetted animal...all the while you are supporting the people who are doing the animals wrong to begin with. If BYBs and Mills can make money, they will always exsist, pumping puppies and kittens into the already sky high population...I think of them in the same light as drug dealers. If their product is in demand, they will supply it. They're only in it for the money, they don't care who or what they hurt, or how many lives they destroy...as long as they profit. And we as a society, have to start making more responsible choices if we ever want to get rid of these leeches. If we ever want to stop the ten millions of euthanasias each year, we have to stand up and fight for it. Educate people, support rescues, do whatever we can. 

My kitten got euthanized at a shelter because she only had one eye, and because I got there a touch too late. I still haven't forgiven myself for it...it was a totally wierd situation that I couldn't control, I always wonder what I could've done differently...but I still cry for her, and I'd give my right arm if I could have her back in my left one, snuggling my face with her tiny black nose. Then I realized...all the animals are just like my Stella was. Loving...ready to share their life with us, and they are killed by a hand they probably licked, or purred for when it came for them. I've been involved with rescue and spay/neuter education ever since. There's not a wake up call more than your own animal being MURDERED because the shelter was completely filled with unwanted animals, and because they were slightly different in a way that you adored them for.

Kelly, 
You've finally said what I've been thinking forever, but too scared to say because I didn't want to be attacked...
"I have said it before and I will say it again. Breeding just needs to stop until this problem is to a more managable. PERIOD. 
I know there are WONDERFUL breeders that do everything right. Freeze it (eggs or whatever, we have the technology, **** we are cloning) Until NO MORE DOGS or CATS are dying."

Seriously, amen. Until there is a home for every animal that is already here, why make more? The animals that are dying should be our #1 concern, if we truly love these animals.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If a family cannot put out $200 for a major purchase, a purchase that is going to continue to cost them money for 12 to 14 years or more for a cat, then maybe they should reconsider whether they CAN afford a pet.

That being said, I agree that the sky is not going to fall if this family allows their dogs to breed, and then sells them on Craig's list. 

There are people out there that the good guys will not sell to, and the rescues will not adopt too. Maybe a person who lives alone and works, or a elderly person, or a young couple in a rental situation. These people will either get a puppy from a BYB or a pet store. I prefer the BYB to the pet store, because they are worlds apart. 

Pet stores are a major problem. People who breed dogs that will be sold by someone else in a retail establishment DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR DOGS OR PUPPIES. The issue of these breeders may be wonderful animals and deserve to be treated with kindness and respect, but their breeders need to be hounded out of business (like the pun). 

Lastly, and I know that everyone is not going to like this, but I do not believe that we should try to save every single dog. I think there are dogs in pounds and shelters and rescues receiving expensive treatments on public and private dollars funded by taxes and donations. Some of these dogs, with no owners in sight, are put through gruelling surgeries and painful recoveries where they could have been euthanized painlessly and the funds could have been used to feed and house and pay workers to care for healthy pets that are euthanized simply for space. 

And dogs that are aggressive should be euthanized and not given time and space for rehabilitation on public dollars. While in the waiting room at the hospital last week, I turned on Animal Cops and saw the worker get bit by a Rott. There was much wrong in my opinion, a male/female rott in the cage and the guy put his hand up over the dog's head. But then, they sent the dog to be rehabilitated. They show the same shelter worker recieving ANOTHER bite from this dog AFTER it was rehabilitated. They said something about the worker not wantint to give up on the dog still, and I turned it off. 

Somehow, I cannot be convinced of the terrible plight in our country's shelters when they are spending so much on dogs that need serious care without much hope of a future.

I do not agree that people should simply put the purebred dog fancy on hold until there are no more dogs dying in shelters. But I do think that shelters should be there for people who die and leave pets, who are completely diabled and leave pets, who are completely destitute. This is NOT the attitude today. People drop their dogs off at the pound because they cannot house train them or because they grew bigger than they expected. 

We need to change attitudes. The attitude in the purebred fancy needs help but is not the bulk of the problem. The bulk of the problem is pet owners whether purebred or mixed. These people should be required to be there when the dog is euthanized. Or maybe they should be required to work their so many hours on euth day.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Maybe a person who lives alone and works, or a elderly person, or a young couple in a rental situation.


_None_ of these situations would make it impossible for someone to adopt from many rescue groups and certainly not from most shelters. 

Now, there ARE people who want to keep their animal tethered outside, want to breed it (and know nothing about doing that responsibly) or have dumped the last 10 dogs they adopted. Some of those people can still (







) adopt but others do find it hard to get a dog from a shelter or rescue and many of them go off and buy a dog from a BYB or similar instead. However, in spite of this, I don't see that adopting to them is a good idea or fair to the animal that goes to their home to stop them from buying.



> Quote:I think there are dogs in pounds and shelters and rescues receiving expensive treatments on public and private dollars funded by taxes and donations. Some of these dogs, with no owners in sight, are put through gruelling surgeries and painful recoveries where they could have been euthanized painlessly and the funds could have been used to feed and house and pay workers to care for healthy pets that are euthanized simply for space.


This is a really common misconception. The reality is that public funds are almost never used to treat injured or unadoptable animals and private funds are often donated specifically to help with a certain animal and are not available as part of the general fund. Who are we to tell someone who wants to donate what they should spend their money on? If they want to pay to help a dog with a major medical problem and there's a rescue group committed to placing it - why shouldn't they? Sometimes it's those high profile dogs that take a little more medical care but do far more to raise the profile of dogs in need, educate the public, and promote the importance of responsible care than hundreds of perfectly healthy animals coming and going in the shelter. Human nature often needs the individual story to focus on, shear numbers can be overwhelming. 

A lot of people not involved directly with either sheltering or rescue have a lot to say about how resources "should" best be allocated (and this is not directly specifically at Selzer, I hear this all the time), but when you actually work in the trenches, a slightly different reality emerges. I think both rescuing and sheltering should reflect a balance between the need to help the many with compassion for the individual.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

I totally agree about the high profile cases...I mean, look at our Kyah the Warrior Princess, this girl was on death's door, and missing a foot...and seeing pictures of her now, healthy, happy, a wonderful companion walking and RUNNING on her prosthetic foot...that stays with people. It brings forth an emotion being able to relate to the dog, moreso than just looking at a giant overwhelming number...and it's things like that that make them want to help. Humans always love a happy ending, and want to be a part of it.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

Selzer,
I'm always ready and willing to hound those mofos!!!









Hahaha.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm a little tired of this fantasy mentality that by eliminating the breeding and purchasing of purebred dogs that this is somehow going to eliminate stray and homeless dogs. I am currently waiting to bring home the puppy of my dreams next month from a very reputable breeder, should I or my breeder be made to feel guilty or responsible for the lowlifes and dredges of society because they failed in their dogs lifes? Are my dreams and goals of no importance? I am someone who is VERY VERY proactive in Rescues and homeless pets, either through donation or self involved rescues, it's a joke here at my office how many people on the University Campus where I work how many have pets I placed in their homes. I fully understand and hurt for the plight of these animals, but lets lay blame where it belongs, this society is so quick to sugarcoat and blame EVERYONE else but those responsible for this plight, and it AIN'T me!!! I am open and willing to help in any way I can, and I do, but I will not apologize for buying a purebred dog.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

From the time I was a little girl I have brought home strays and found them homes. I fostered many when I was older and rescued a few from shelters. One cat we got was the meanest cat you have ever seen, would attack you and act like a mountain lion! I just named him "cat" and my x and I had him for years, you couldn't even get near him for over a month and slowly he got nicer and nicer until he was the sweetest cat wanting to be pet constantly







he went with my x when we split up but had a wonderful forever home. 

I totally agree with most of what is said above, and I suppose it makes sense about the money spent on the rescue pets I would just like to see more adopted and figured if they were less expensive (where that money could go to vet care for the individuals, etc.) than maybe more would be rescued. Luckily our shelter is a no kill up here. 

The pet stores selling pups should def. be stopped. I think people are pretty educated now to that, and buying at them, at least much more than they used to be. 

I am always teaching my daughter that "stupid" is a bad word and my husband is a truck driver and road rager and it always annoys me when he calls other drivers stupid. I guess I just dislike the word and wouldn't apply it to someone just wanting a dog for their family wherever they obtain it, as long as that pup gets a good home. In some ways it's like saying we should not have kids but adopt from other countries where the babies are in bad conditions (which is awful







) . Okay, I guess it's nothing like that  

Anyway, if I won the lottery I would start an animal sanctuary of my own, that's always been my dream!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, I meant to expand on the pet store comment. At least here, it is almost impossible to find a pet store that sells pets anymore unless it is birds or reptiles, fish, etc. I remember as a young girl about every one I walked into did! 

All I see here now is the adoption fairs put on by petsmart, and petco.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

Starry, that's my #1 dream, of owning a place like Rolling Dog Ranch...

Larhage, I don't think anyone wants to make breeders or people who only want a purebred dog feel badly, that's not the point here. Whatsoever. You've obviously misunderstood something here...No one has once blamed reputable breeders for overpopulation. That would be ridiculous. I don't even know how you came to think that? Everyone knows who is mostly responsible for the excess in unwanted animals. 

And yes, people's dreams and goals are of importance to me, just not anywhere near the importance of trying to save all those innocent lives. That's what this is about, not you.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNite
> I just don't get the "breeding unproven dogs" unless you are talking about a breeder who has a lineage of dogs who are hostile or something. What IS proven in life? Does that mean if my mom and dad were horrible people that I will be one as well? Are dogs diff than us in that respect?


Frankly, in your analogy I think the chance that you will be a horrible person goes up dramatically if you have horrible parents. And no, I don't think dogs are different than us in that respect. Genetics cannot be undone, and it counts for a lot.
People just don't talk about who should and shouldn't reproduce because it's politically incorrect. Even when people with known horrible genetic diseases are having kids with the same horrible genetic diseases and you say, "hey, this is insane" people look at you like you have six heads.
I would like to see most PEOPLE reproduce as responsibly as the best of the breeders do.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I suppose it makes sense about the money spent on the rescue pets I would just like to see more adopted and figured if they were less expensive (where that money could go to vet care for the individuals, etc.) than maybe more would be rescued. Luckily our shelter is a no kill up here.


The problem with that logic is that the adoption fee is covering more vet work than the owner could get at the same price, so by adopting the new owner is actually _saving_ money, not losing it. Rescues and shelters can usually make this work through a combination of cooperative vets giving discounts, and subsidizing their vet charges out of the rescuers' pocket and via donations. 

So, for a $200 adoption fee, the typical adopter gets the following:
Spay or neuter
DHLP-PV vaccines (several rounds in the case of puppies)
Rabies vaccine
Bordatella vaccine
Deworming
Heartworm test
Microchipping

And that's for an animal with no medical issues whatsoever. We often have to spend hundreds of dollars treating heartworms, parvo, injuries etc. and our adoption fee remains the same. 

I guarantee you that if you price those services out to discover what they would cost the average pet owner you will find that $200 is a deal and a half. Lack of money for an adoption fee is not the impediment to adoption that many people believe it is. Far more common impediments include simple lack of appropriate homes, lack of interested homes etc. There are simply more animals than there are homes and even among the looking homes, there are not enough looking for the kinds of dogs and cats in most abundance. Someone looking for a small breed puppy isn't going to adopt a 7 year old Pit Bull, no matter what kind of adoption fee deal you offer them.









If you actually live in an area with no kill open admission shelters, consider yourself amazingly lucky!







Most parts of the country aren't there yet.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Hmmm... okay, yah, that does make good sense... I guess I don't know as much about it as I should. I didn't realize they did that much for the pets. I wonder though, why do all this just to euthanize many of them? 

Where I live is 9,000 feet up in the mountains and I have visited the shelter many times just to see "what's up" and let my daughter see the animals. Most times they have 3 or 4 dogs that are "inmates" just sitting in the lobby area. I almost adopted a bassett hound who was so sweet but couldn't afford him that week ($250) and then someone else got him









Many people drive up here to surrender their animals I have heard because of the no kill policy. You are right, it should be that way everywhere!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Here is a link to our shelter:

http://www.tcrascolorado.com/index.php?page=about-us


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I wonder though, why do all this just to euthanize many of them?


Shelters that are euthanizing don't do any of the vetting until the animal has a commited adopter, so they're only vetting the animals that are leaving not the rest of them. Rescue groups and no kill shelters go ahead and vet the dogs, but then they're not euthanizing.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

From their homepage they do have a county contract but they're not an open admission shelter. 



> Quote:TCRAS can only accept an owner release when space is available and retains the right of refusal based on the animal’s behavior and health. TCRAS has an array of outside resources and will provide a contact to check for shelter availability.


This is a very different scenario than an open admission municipal shelter which must take all dogs regardless of adoptability, temperament, medical needs etc.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Okay, that makes more sense.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, interesting, I didn't know that about them... or that even existed! I am learning a lot from these boards!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I try!









But you can imagine that it's easier to be low kill/no kill if you can restrict your intake to the more adoptable animals. Don't get me wrong though - you probably DO live in an area with a minimal pet overpopulation problem, which is great!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

no, makes sense for sure! and yes, I do, it's a small community up in the rocky mountains. I remember when I went to Europe with my sis and was crazy re: homeless dogs and cats. They don't seem to have animal control there and were stray dogs and cats that would just sit by your outdoor table at a restaurant begging. Greece was really BAD with cats, literally hundreds of cats just running around everywhere on the streets!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Sadly there are large sections of the US that are the same way.







It really is unreal when you see it for the first time.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Yeah, I was pretty much shocked by it in Greece, France and Italy, how these dogs just roam the streets and sit by your table. Sweet, sweet dogs just wanting a bite to eat! I have never seen that in the states so far and lived in LA for many years, but I wonder if they are better off given the luxury of living wild and begging than being in a shelter and being killed?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

No, typically not. Stray dogs and cats are 1. reproducing and making still more stray dogs and cats and 2. extremely vulnerable to disease, injury, and human cruelty. There are many worse things than euthanasia and stray animals are often victims of them.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I have lived in the mountains a long time and the ******* hunters come up every year at hunting season ready to kill our deer







they sum it up to over population, they need the meat, etc. Which may be true for a very few. For most, their hunting equipment could buy their family meat for many years! 

Most of them come up for the kill, to kill a defeneless animal... and they see it as a challenge. Then there are those that come up here with a gun to kill bear and mountain lions.. can't eat the meat, and wow, how brave are they to hide in the forest and shoot a bear or lion? it's rediculous. 

It's always annoyed me... hunters up here... but I guess my point is human cruelty as you said... How man sees animals, it's crazy to me and I never will understand it...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I live in NE Ohio and have killed 5 deer with my vehicles already. I PRAY the hunters bag a kajillion (yes, that is too a word) this year! 

My dad has gotten one year in over sixty years of hunting. Some of those years he did not hunt deer. Others he let deer go. But the one he did get we ate, and ate, and ate. I am not a venison fan, but times being what they are, and not having a lot of money for meat, I have figured out how to make a pretty palatable stew out of it. 

Once upon a time there was a large beautiful herd of mule deer in the Grand Canyon. They were deemed a national treasure. They HAD to be protected. Hunting them was banned. Within a couple of years, they are gone, died out, overpopulated and starved to death. They have been reintroduced and so has hunting. Now there is a good herd of them again.

Good hunters are good conservationists. They know the game they hunt and want for it to thrive. They know what its predators are and what competes with it for food and cover. They follow the law, its limits and seasons. Good hunters are good to have around. 

There are idiots wherever you look. Around here, people have been known to paint "COW" on their animals for they yayhoos that come from the city that first week of deer season.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I want to expand on the pet store idea too. People are NOT educated about buying from pet stores. They are STILL doing it and do it regularly. They only learn when they personally get a pup with parvo or distemper. 

They learn this in childhood. My sister's two year olds can tell you where to buy a dog. They sing it:

How much is that doggy in the window?
The one with the waggedy tail?
How much is that doggy in the window?
I sure hope that doggy's for sale.

I was at a puppy class put on by my vet. One of the gals in the seat behind me also had a shepherd pup. We got to talking. She got it from the pet store. Yeah, she knows! She works for our county's shelter!!!

I have never worked in a shelter. So I do not know everything that is going on there or the scope of the problems. But the idea of shelter workers going out and buying dogs at pet stores is just a bit too much for me.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

Wow...now THERE'S a commited rescuer...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And in our GSD club, I heard some of the rescue people talking about going to the Auction in southern Ohio to picket. Come to find out that they BOUGHT three dogs and brought them back!!!

Another person, a stranger in the grocery store started talking to be about where she got her puppy, not a pet store, but a notorious puppy mill. She told me of the awful conditions, mud and muck up to their knees, and all the diseases the poor pup she got from there, and how she called and took an older bitch from her too with worms and sick. 

She told me in detail how bad it was, and then said when she gets another dog she is going to "rescue" it from her. 

I mentioned that if any money is changing hands than she is enabling this woman to continue. Well, she then shut up and left. I guess I did not make any friend that day, but maybe I put a thought in the woman's head. 

Sometimes a "rescue" is the worst thing you can do.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:But the idea of shelter workers going out and buying dogs at pet stores is just a bit too much for me.


My guess is that that's extremely unusual although there are certainly ignorant people to be found everywhere. I have met shelter workers who released all the cats outside to live wild and unaltered because they didn't want to have to kill them. Humans are not always entirely rational or informed and sometimes that leads to poor decision making. But there are realities and information on both the problems themselves as well as realistic approaches to solving them for people who are interested enough to find out more.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Come to find out that they BOUGHT three dogs and brought them back!!!


Buying dogs at mills is actually quite a complicated situation and not as clear cut as it initially sounds. I will say up front that I come down on the side as opposed to giving money to millers, even a few bucks, but for those who specialize in mill rescue there is sometimes a method to the madness and a system behind what they're doing. Good mill rescuers often go to auctions not to buy but to offer to take the animals that aren't purchased, animals that may otherwise end up thrown in dumpsters with their heads bashed in. In other cases they will bid for animals but will only bid up to a small cap. Again, this is not anything that I really support personally but I'm not a mill rescue expert. I do know there's a lot that goes into it. 

As far as "rescuing" dogs by buying them from petstores etc. that's not something real rescuers do. Occasionally you'll meet someone who did it before they got involved in rescue and learned better, but once you know more about the situation, you don't. Not too long ago there were a bunch of people advocating the purchase of two GSD pups found in a petstore and posted on this board. I argued hard against it but I took a lot of heat. So even otherwise knowledgable people don't always quite understand.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This person wasn't trying to "rescue" the dog from the pet store. They went there looking for a GSD, always wanted a GSD, had six or seven mixes at home from the shelter, but wanted a purebred and bought it from the pet store. Uhg!

As for the people going to the Auction. I don't know all the details, so I suppose they could have picked up some old ones that couldn't be sold. We are talking about a woman who took her own dog along when she went to rescue a bunch of dogs from a hoarder, so all bets are off I think. 

I remember the two pups at the petstore deal. Nope, I would have left them there. It sounds so cold and hard. I believe if you cannot override your emotions, then you shouldn't go into the pet store.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

If I remember the pet store thread you are talking about...I think the concern was they were working line GSD's and who's hands they would end up in, then end up in a shelter. 

The orginal breeder was contacted to go rescue them, what they buyer should have done in the first place. 

The buyer (owner) knew they pet store owner, they were doing the guy a favor by selling the pups for him, so he said. 

I believe he pulled them, and returned them to the breeder. All because of who posted that thread. 

Good outcome.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Yes, ultimately it was a more or less good outcome. One puppy was already sold by the time the breeder took the other one back. But IMO buying the puppies, which was repeatedly suggested, was the wrong thing to do. Whether or not they were working line dogs who might ultimately have ended up at a shelter. Petstores routinely sell all manner of dogs that have a high likelihood of winding up at the shelter - Huskies, Malamutes, even non-working lines GSDs just to name a few.

I'm in agreement with Selzer here - you don't buy puppies from petstores, no way no how. Buying them would have gotten those two pups out but what message does it send to the petstore owner? Hey! Working lines GSDs sell! And how long is it before he restocks? I hate it for the dogs that wind up there, but I don't think giving the petstore money is ever the solution.







But I do think the story illustrates how reasonable people might agree with that in theory but then when they see a puppy who reminds them of their dog in a petstore, that rule goes out the window.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

No. I am Not for buying from pet stores. 

I just remembered that story. And how it was a mistake that they ended up there. The breeder was contacted by someone from the board. 

Sables are getting more over bred here, by BYB, but it was highly unusal that they would be in that pet store, in this area. 
At this point it is still rare to see them in shelters and homeless around here. 

I wish it was for all GSD's and breeds. 

I have wondered about this certain Pet Store too. It has been around for over 40 yrs. I do not know if they sell puppy mill pups or not. My parents took me there as a child, they even have a monkey. 

They claim to sell from local small breeders. Which is probably true. There is enough of them around to support a pet store. 

Not that, that makes it right. AND I do not visit (spend money) at the store any more. 

That is the key to stopping the breeding. Making it socially unacceptable. Like smoking. 

Talking, educating. Telling people of good breeders, and what it takes to be one. 

Saying really you want you dogs to have puppies, well...are you going to do this test? OR that test? ETC. 

Do you know their parents? and what their health was? ETC. 

Do you have the money to pay for the vet bills if the female turns around during mating and bites the males eye out?? ETC. 

Make them THINK....and do not stop. Keep talking. Educate yourself, find out what a good breeder is, what it is to YOU. AND know the difference. 

I hope the OP is still reading this, and never gives up on those neighbors. Because these people are the tip of the iceberg. They need to be stopped one litter at a time. IMO


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## aspatter (Mar 8, 2005)

There is a backyard breeder near me. This past weekend, she had the GSD puppies in a pen next to the road with a for sale sign. Hand over the money, take your pick and drive on down the road. It took every ounce of my better sense not to stop, she's the same person I confronted in the Walmart parking lot selling puppies out of a truck at Christmas. Wasn't pretty..what a *******. Might as well have been selling Christmas trees, she didn't care what happens to them. How do you get through to someone like that.? Her sign has been up for at least a month. In this economy the demand is gone. Even the adoptions at the local shelter are off 60%. I had thought about making an offer on the lot and get them North but then I am just enabling her. It kills me to feel helpless knowing what will likely happen to these puppies. GSD's are popular as yard art in the part of GA.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I feel your pain, I really do. I see the same stuff here every time there's a festival and of course at the fleamarkets. It just makes you ill. I'm not sure there IS a way to get through to the people doing the selling, but I do think that often their potential buyers can be reached. As Kelly is saying - speak out, let people know the problems and also provide them with alternatives. I'll always try to engage them in conversation, let them know about purebred rescue groups or how to find a reputable breeder if that's the route they're set on going. And of course, any time we see the puppy sellers violating the law, we try to jump on that. Sometimes there are laws about where you can sell etc. 

It's a painfully slow process though - but I look at how far things have come and that's encouraging. Rescue adoption is more popular than ever (recent economic downturns notwithstanding) and more and more people seem to know that puppy mills exist, even if they still aren't sure how to spot them. I wish places like Petsmart and Petco didn't sell ANY animals, but at least they're replacing many of the places that sell puppies and kittens and of course they do enormous good work in offering a venue for rescue and shelter animals instead. 

One step at a time I guess!


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ASPThere is a backyard breeder near me. This past weekend, she had the GSD puppies in a pen next to the road with a for sale sign. Hand over the money, take your pick and drive on down the road. It took every ounce of my better sense not to stop, she's the same person I confronted in the Walmart parking lot selling puppies out of a truck at Christmas. Wasn't pretty..what a *******. Might as well have been selling Christmas trees, she didn't care what happens to them. How do you get through to someone like that.? Her sign has been up for at least a month. In this economy the demand is gone. Even the adoptions at the local shelter are off 60%. I had thought about making an offer on the lot and get them North but then I am just enabling her. It kills me to feel helpless knowing what will likely happen to these puppies. GSD's are popular as yard art in the part of GA.


When you confronted her at the Wal Mart parking lot did you ask her why she does this? 

I see this here too. There was once a truck at the post office selling them out of the back, with the parents right there. 

There are signs at intersections for various breeds. I always want to get out of the car and kick them down. 

As long as people keep buying they will always be in business.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

Like I said, they are not much different than your local drug dealers.

I'm from MI, and down here the pet problem is SO much worse. It really depresses me. 

I can't believe rescue workers would release unaltered cats...that's just ridiculous. Maybe they were dyslexic...? I don't see any other way they could be so ignorant. I mean, come on, have they learned nothing? There are low/cost clinics...I've taken quite a few ferals to the one up in MI. Sure, people may not want to use them for their own pets, but it REALLY helps out when you trap and release ferals and get it done for them. They take off a small tip off the ear so people know they are altered. It's really a great program. They also discount even more when they are ferals. 
I saw a pair of feral cats breeding the other day and it actually brought me to tears...I am way too emotional a person to be involved in such a depressing thing as rescue, but I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

In fairness - although there are some low cost clinics, there weren't any within hours of this shelter nor did the workers have $40 per cat to alter them before releasing them. That adds up to some serious $ pretty quick. It's not that I can't understand what they did - they didn't want to have to kill the cats, like StarryNite suggested, they hoped the cats were better off living wild. But the reality is that in seeking a short term solution they were adding to their long term problem, and this is a common problem in terms of people's logic.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry it brings tears to your eyes. You have to ask yourself is it better to be a stray cat or be euthanized? Most shelter workers, unless they are doing it soley for their love of animals, would not have the kind of extra cash to have even a few animals speutered each month. 

We have a program here that will spay and release feral cats, there are also feral cat colonies where the people are trying to get them to the point where they could be pets. 

Cats are hard because they literally CAN scavange enough and hunt enough to make a go at living without humans. It would be nice to have speutered the cats first, but if that is not an option, I could see myself releasing them rather than euthanizing them. If that were the only two choices.


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## marosmith (Feb 7, 2009)

white trash


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Matt Smithwhite trash


???? Who are you calling white trash???


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## knotadork (Jun 12, 2009)

To bring this back on topic... On some positive news...
When I got home yesterday they had the dogs out and the older kids asked if I knew anyone that would take the little girl because she has become too "aggressive" for them. She bites a lot, growls even more, but it's all playful in my opinion. Just being a typical high driven pup. Has no fear of anything. Walked right up to my GSD and playfully nipped and growled at him and then jumped all over my pit and tried to chase his tail. 

So needless to say, she is at our house at the moment. Might end up being permanent, we'll just have to see. At the moment her presence seems to be causing problems between my males. My GSD seems to very protective of her (possibly resource guarding) and have had a couple of fights break out.

But I understand their concerns having an infant and this way it all works out for the better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

two dogs is often ok whether they are opposite sex or the same sex. But when you add a third and have both sexes, it seems that dynamics become very different.


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