# Zac George trains a GSD



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So I'm not going to comment on methods here, as he is making some headway, but rather timing and efficiency.

As a marker trainer, Zac could use a brush up with a good trainer on timing and consistency. He is regularly failing to reward a mark. He is switching up command names while failing to reward marks. He is lacking in consistency. He's up against a time constraint here and his training could be much more efficient IMO.

I commend him for taking on a dog that is very outside his normal scope of clients. He is definitely on over his head and making the best of it.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

I actually wanted to post asking peoples thoughts on this series ... I have to take my hat off to him that he’s taken on a dog that he’s not normally associated with. But I agree, I think he could be using his time more efficiently. I’m interested to see how Moira ends up after 2 weeks.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm glad he got this dog. She's sweet and about a 3 out of 10 on the knucklehead scale. I think it will be a good learning experience for Zac and Moira. I think a harder dog with more difficult issues could have been a training failure.

I'm not talking trash about Zac at all. He helps a lot of people learn about training. I just think he could really benefit from a seminar or two with trainers that have good timing and that stress clear communication.

I think he's doing a good thing here.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I've had worse days. Lol. I always commend anyone for trying and she seems a basically sweet dog so at worst they will both learn some. Good on him for knowing he is outside his comfort zone and doing it anyway. I think a lot of pet owners would have an easier time following him then some other trainers. He's relatable. It is frustrating to see the mistakes, but the dog is clearly making progress. 
A note on Come and Fetch. 
I used it as a method with Shadow and inadvertently taught her that a) Bring meant Come, and b) that when she came to me she should bring me something! Lol.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> So I'm not going to comment on methods here, as he is making some headway, but rather timing and efficiency.
> 
> As a marker trainer, Zac could use a brush up with a good trainer on timing and consistency. He is regularly failing to reward a mark. He is switching up command names while failing to reward marks. He is lacking in consistency. He's up against a time constraint here and his training could be much more efficient IMO.
> 
> I commend him for taking on a dog that is very outside his normal scope of clients. He is definitely on over his head and making the best of it.


I just question not necessarily about the video. What do you think about the "marker" being a reward in itself after it has been established thoroughly ?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I've had worse days. Lol. I always commend anyone for trying and she seems a basically sweet dog so at worst they will both learn some. Good on him for knowing he is outside his comfort zone and doing it anyway. I think a lot of pet owners would have an easier time following him then some other trainers. He's relatable. It is frustrating to see the mistakes, but the dog is clearly making progress.
> A note on Come and Fetch.
> I used it as a method with Shadow and inadvertently taught her that a) Bring meant Come, and b) that when she came to me she should bring me something! Lol.


Which is a distinction in training methods that you now understand. I am a huge advocate for fetch in training, but I separate it from everything else. It does build the habit of coming to me, but recall is a totally separate behavior, and fetch is the reward.

Its small things like this that Zac hasn't figured out. Later, those two things will need to be separated. I'm sure I would make mistakes like this if I were going to work a dog in a particular sport because of my lack of experience. 

If you haven't watched the rest of the series, I suggest it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> I just question not necessarily about the video. What do you think about the "marker" being a reward in itself after it has been established thoroughly ?


Eh... I know some wildly successful trainers use it that way, like Omar Van Muller. His training is heavily relationship based.

I think that after the terminal bridge is heavily established, moving to a random reward schedule after a mark isn't going to have any fallout. It's not something I typically do, but I see no harm in it unless you just quit rewarding altogether. I can't see where a mark will become rewarding in and of itself. 

Interesting thought...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I think a lot of pet owners would have an easier time following him then some other trainers. He's relatable.


This is something to which I totally relate. I have a hard time explaining things to owners who don't have any education in animal behavior or experience with what I consider basic training theories.

I think trainers like Zac and Tom Davis are much easier for a novice to learn from than me.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

I watched a few of his episodes and stopped when I saw him use pee pads for his new puppy. He seems like a good guy, but I have puppy pads PTSD after I used them on my first dog and made potty training 100% harder on myself and my dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Which is a distinction in training methods that you now understand. I am a huge advocate for fetch in training, but I separate it from everything else. It does build the habit of coming to me, but recall is a totally separate behavior, and fetch is the reward.
> 
> Its small things like this that Zac hasn't figured out. Later, those two things will need to be separated. I'm sure I would make mistakes like this if I were going to work a dog in a particular sport because of my lack of experience.
> 
> If you haven't watched the rest of the series, I suggest it.


Oh I will be watching more. He's fun. He's an average guy with just a dog.
I only pointed out the fetch thing because I screwed it up! Not saying anything about him. But it is a pitfall that a novice might get caught on.
I had a dog that actively resisted Come. I stupidly thought I could blend, since she was awesome at fetch and understood Bring. It's all good. We learned a whole new game! I'm not a trainer. At all.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

How did he become so popular? He slowly made progress but the average dog owner dealing with a similar dog won’t be able to replicate his methods and end up with a well behaved trained dog. He’s sloppy. He turned me off completely when he got into the no tools mantra. There are times when tools are more efficient. He could have done a lot more in one week. It‘s sad the previous owner let that dog get so out of control. I agree with David, his timing is off but it also appeared that Moira was confused and didn’t always understand what he wanted.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> How did he become so popular? He slowly made progress but the average dog owner dealing with a similar dog won’t be able to replicate his methods and end up with a well behaved trained dog. He’s sloppy. He turned me off completely when he got into the no tools mantra. There are times when tools are more efficient. He could have done a lot more in one week. It‘s sad the previous owner let that dog get so out of control. I agree with David, his timing is off but it also appeared that Moira was confused and didn’t always understand what he wanted.


He’s very personable, well spoken, and using a very marketable approach. The first two especially tend to be lacking for a lot of the best dog trainers I know. I meet someone recently who could probably become as popular if that was his goal, but it’s a rare combination.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> He’s very personable, well spoken, and using a very marketable approach. The first two especially tend to be lacking for a lot of the best dog trainers I know. I meet someone recently who could probably become as popular if that was his goal, but it’s a rare combination.


F-bombs, insults and khaki shorts are the hallmark of a good trainer


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> F-bombs, insults and khaki shorts are the hallmark of a good trainer


Within the first 10 minutes they need to tell you how wrong you are too.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> He’s very personable, well spoken, and using a very marketable approach. The first two especially tend to be lacking for a lot of the best dog trainers I know. I meet someone recently who could probably become as popular if that was his goal, but it’s a rare combination.


He’s an actor.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Zac proves there's more than 1 way to train a dog...

Not the way I'd do it, and not so efficent as some people like. But he is making progress with the dog...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> He’s an actor.


I think a real trainer could use him as a front to grow their business.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I think a real trainer could use him as a front to grow their business.


😂. He thinks of himself as a real trainer. I followed a woman on youtube who everyone loved about five years ago until I realized she didn’t know **** about German Shepherds. I never hear anything about her anymore.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> 😂. He thinks of himself as a real trainer. I followed a woman on youtube who everyone loved about five years ago until I realized she didn’t know **** about German Shepherds. I never hear anything about her anymore.


I feel like if you recommend a YouTube trainer, they immediately post something dumb. It’s like a rule.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I feel like if you recommend a YouTube trainer, they immediately post something dumb. It’s like a rule.


They have to. Even my favorite Stonnie has posted a few things I didn’t need to watch.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> They have to. Even my favorite Stonnie has posted a few things I didn’t need to watch.


Stonnie said some things that really altered my opinion on him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Stonnie said some things that really altered my opinion on him.


Good or bad?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Good or bad?


Bad.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Darn. Don’t tell me.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Darn. Don’t tell me.


I don’t think this would be the appropriate place to have that conversation anyway.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

And here is where +R only trainers tend to fail with GSDs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@David Winners could you describe what you would do differently in training a dog like this? 
I think myself and others would find it helpful. If you have the time of course. 

I feel kinda bad for this guy, because he knows he is over his head with this girl and he is trying to do the right thing with very limited time. 

I'm no expert but she looks to me like a fun dog with a really poor foundation.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Brave of him to take on a dog outside his wheelhouse. Even to my newish sensibilities, that timing looks bad and it seems he doesn't understand the "good" is supposed to be a bridge to the reward, not simultaneous with it (?). I would also never wear the long lead attached to a belt, at least not with Jupiter, who's a true fur missile at 85 lbs of brutish muscle.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Without writing a book, I would begin by not taking the dog under these circumstances. 2 weeks is just not a timeframe with which I would be comfortable. It could be 2 weeks is the goal but 5 is acceptable, but no way am I going to commit to a 2 week B&T with any kind of guarantee of success.

Second, he's wasting a lot of reps by; not making the reward an event, poor timing (mark after movement or simultaneous with reward), confusing commands and marks, worrying about all the external factors more than actual obedience, using food instead of toy in highly distracting situations.

This isn't a dog that wants to kill stuff. It just has no manners. Simple, proofed obedience will solve all the problems. I understand that he is unwilling to correct a dog or use punishment in his training. On my world, loose leash walking is a 10 minute training session with touch ups for a while. Having that obedience to the leash allows me to fairly correct and reward behavior while out on a walk. He doesn't have those tools so he has to overcome conflicting motivators without punishment.

He also does training before exercise. I would wear that dog out before heading to a session that was concentrating on reactivity. 

More later...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He does very well with focused attention when she’s not near triggers. He’s put extreme restrictions on himself by limiting to no corrections at all or even negative reinforcement. The birds are not a trigger for her the way dogs are, because they fly off and they are gone. Toys work a little but are not as strong a reward for her as food is. I wonder what he will do when he can’t fix her reactivity. Also, what is wrong with some leash pressure? Why is he teaching heel on the right when an adopter is going to take obedience where they teach heel in the left side? What happens when he finally gets some control over her and she is adopted out to someone who can’t possibly do what he is trying to do? What if they don’t have treats to stuff in her face? What happens if his PO method doesn’t fix the reactivity at all? Why are they on a two week time limit? I’ve known rescues that kept a reactive dog for two years before they were able to adopt the dog out.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

@ 2:51 - _" I'm not interested in fluff. I think what a lot of people get into in this business is fluff..."_ - Haz Othman


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I looked quickly. I don't understand why he has her on harness and expects her not to pull. Harness - pull, pull hard, they are made for that. If he wanted to avoid reactivity to dogs positive way only, with food he had to continuously feed while passing the dogs while shortening the leash, he had to move and not stand still and restrain her on a harness, let her stare and get agitated. The dog seems young, that's the time to get foundation. She seems like a very nice pup.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

*Ivan Balabanov quote:*

_" While teaching, I believe in and love to motivate through positive reinforcement but I also recognize that in certain circumstances the less complicated and better approach to reinforce my ideas and/or achieve the objective of the lesson is through negative reinforcement. I do not exclude or twist the facts or the power of positive punishment, because dogs do not need a “special introduction” to punishment. A five week old puppy that lives with his mom and litter mates has already been introduced to positive punishment through direct and very natural interaction. Maybe the pup decided to eat when it was not feeding time, or got too close to Mom’s toy (just to name few examples). We the humans do not need to take sides as to whether punishment is “humane” or if it works. We do not need behavioral scientists to waste money on biased experiments. If you have ever observed a dam with her puppies, you know very well that punishment works brilliantly just as positive reinforcement in the great grand scheme we call learning. We can learn much from a mother dog, as nature has gifted her with the skills to teach those puppies to respect her rules without ever developing a chronic fear of her." - _Ivan Balabanov


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

David Winners said:


> This is something to which I totally relate. I have a hard time explaining things to owners who don't have any education in animal behavior or experience with what I consider basic training theories.


The other problem I had when first working with Ole and trying to learn from you-tube trainers is that the trainers who demonstrated good timing reacted so quickly that I couldn't follow what they were doing.

It was like an American trying to figuring out what is happening at their first cricket match.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Reading this thread, I went back and watched 2 full videos, and here are my thoughts. I think that his training methods are not effective and he actually makes positive reinforcement trainers look bad.

He sometimes has good advice, but he doesn’t follow his own advice when training his or other dogs. His timing is awful, he forgets to reward when he should, he’s hyper and unfocused, and doesn’t let the dog be a dog. I’ve noticed that especially with his own puppy.

The reason why I feel compelled to say this is because he’s very popular, and I’m sure that many dog owners watch his videos and fail to train their dogs. And then they think that positive reinforcement doesn’t work, and that’s simply not true.

I used positive reinforcement with Dexter who’s now almost 9 and has been as perfect as it gets. I really had no clue about positive training back then, i just did what felt right. Tony is now 10 weeks old, and I’m making an effort NOT to correct, but to only redirect and crate when needed. I’m using a clicker for the first time, and it’s been amazing. At 10 weeks old he knows all his basic commands, doesn’t chew on things in the house, stopped mouthing and biting completely, and his recall is always reliable inside the house and outside, which surprises me the most. He’s no longer on a long leash in the house because he has learned to stay with me, and if he wanders off a bit too far, I can call him back easily, even with distractions.

I don’t expect that there will never be any issues in the future, BUT, positive reinforcement works when used correctly. Many dog owners forget that they have to learn as well, it’s not just the puppy, and to adjust their training to match their dog’s personality, not vice versa. I’m having a lot of fun in the process, and I would say that puppers seems pretty happy, too.

For anyone who’s looking for a positive reinforcement trainer, I would recommend Kikopup on YouTube over Zac George, who shows viewers the right way to do it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

He is sloppy and all over the place. He would greatly benefit from a few seminars with some good marker trainers.



Sitz&Platz said:


> Reading this thread, I went back and watched 2 full videos, and here are my thoughts. I think that his training methods are not effective and he actually makes positive reinforcement trainers look bad.
> 
> He sometimes has good advice, but he doesn’t follow his own advice when training his or other dogs. His timing is awful, he forgets to reward when he should, he’s hyper and unfocused, and doesn’t let the dog be a dog. I’ve noticed that especially with his own puppy.
> 
> ...


I would totally train all dogs with +R only if it actually worked for me. The two things that get in the way for me are conflicting motivators which increase with age and hormones, and pressure later in training such as in bite work. 

I also rough house with my dogs. I slap them around much harder in play than a typical correction.

I raced bmx when I was a kid. I have 13 years martial arts training. I wrestled all the way through school. I rode 3 wheelers, and then 4 wheelers and then dirt bikes, I was a soldier. All these things include positive punishment, pain, injuries, and they are all super fun. My perspective is based on my experiences. I want my dog to enjoy life, be fit and tough, have good manners everywhere, engage a threat with power and confidence and kiss babies and women. 

I would argue that there are not many dogs happier than mine, but I could be delusional I suppose.


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