# random thought about self preservation



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I have recently read an article about conditioning our k9 athletes. It told the story of a dog that came onto the field and hit the decoy like a bullet out of a gun. The dog did everything right and was allowed a second bite, just as exciting as the first. But on the way off the field the dog nearly passed out and died of over heating. 
This dog must have crazy drive. Fascinating to watch perform but does he have no sense of self preservation? My long haired WGSL barely wants to do obedience when the humidity gets high. Actually that is pretty smart. He's not going to die of working too hard in the heat unless I push him too much. Are we breeding some of those smarts out of our dogs in favor of drive?

And after watching the video in the thread "too much whip" and seeing those dogs dodge the decoy I couldn't help but think "that is the smart thing to do". If a stranger came at me with a flying baton I think I'd back up and rethink the situation, too. Of course it is exciting to see a dog drive right past the threat and grab the sleeve but it that a sign of bravery in a dog or a lack of street smarts? Of course the IPO dogs, once they break the routine usually go back to the handler. They know that is a safe place. PP dogs are taught to duck and reengage and grab the arm with the weapon. 

So the random thought it, in favor of drive and excitement and speed in our protection sports, are we really destroying some of the sense of self preservation and intelligence our dogs really need to have?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Car2ner, yes, i think there's such a thing as a dog having too much drive and not enough street smarts.

I've heard of police dogs (malinois) being given a ball as a reward for a find, while training in a multi-story building that was built especially for police and fire department exercises, so there was no glass in the windows, and some of the openings were right at floor level.

If the ball rolled out of one of the openings, some of the dogs would follow it - to their deaths!

Back when German shepherds were the #1 choice for Seeing Eye dogs, I remember someone asking one of the trainers why they were the best choice. The trainer responded, "If you were using say, a standard poodle as a Seeing Eye dog, and the blind person came to an excavation in the sidewalk, and told the dog to go forward, the poodle would just jump down into the excavation. A German shepherd would not. It would have the sense to protect the blind person from falling into the hole."

It's my personal belief that this is tied to the German shepherd's herding instincts, and desire to protect its flock. And I think this sort of discernment is becoming harder and harder to find in our breed.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It?s an interesting point. And not only in the whip video posted m. IPO is a good sport and interesting to watch. it looks like they expect a home run everytime an not allowed to have an off day. I was surprised that many people who did ipo said they are not sure their dogs would protect them in real life so I could never understand this is that what the ipo sport is about trying to prove the dog is capable of protecting the owner or is the dog protecting itself or a game. I do understand the fact the dog has have enough prey /defensive drive and nerve to accomplish the protection phase in ipo. If a game then how is protection instincts tested since they put so much emphasis on this part of the sport. If just a game and the dog knew it was a just a game and not truly protecting its owner or itself why should the dog push past its self preservation instincts.

Yes as sunsilver posted I would think a degree of discernment is a good thing.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> It?s an interesting point. IPO is a good sport and interesting to watch. it looks like they expect a home run everytime an not allowed to have an off day. I was surprised that many people who did ipo said they are not sure their dogs would protect them in real life so I could never understand this is that what the ipo sport is about trying to prove the dog is capable of protecting the owner or is the dog protecting itself or a game. I do understand the fact the dog has have enough prey /defensive drive and nerve to accomplish the protection phase in ipo. If a game then how is protection instincts tested since they put so much emphasis on this part of the sport. If just a game and the dog knew it was a just a game and not truly protecting its owner or itself why should the dog push past its self preservation instincts.
> 
> Yes as sunsilver posted I would think a degree of discernment is a good thing.


An IPO dog might not protect the owner if a real danger came up. The dog learns to bite a sleeve and wait for a cue from the handler. In real life there is no bite sleeve, hits will hurt more and punches and kicks come into play. Since the dogs aren't shown, taught or practice what to do in a situation like that they get confused and run back to the handler..."tell me what to do boss, this guy isn't playing by the rules". IPO was a test that dogs in Germany went through BEFORE breeding or training for other things. 
I just wonder as some people breed our dogs to look flashy in a trial, is there a trade off? And Sunsilver brought up a good point. I have also heard about dogs so ball crazy they completely loose sight of their surroundings and jump off of a ledge, out a window or break their necks crashing into a tree.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I believe this all goes back to what Cliff has been harping on for years. If you breed a GSD specifically for ONE thing, in this case, high prey drive, so it can score well in IPO, the breed loses its balance. Dogs become good at IPO, but maybe not so good as house pets, guard dogs for the home, or medical or police service dogs.

As Cliff has often said, it used to be you could find dogs to perform all of these jobs IN THE SAME LITTER!

Some people still breed for this, but it's getting harder to find.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

car2ner said:


> I have recently read an article about conditioning our k9 athletes. It told the story of a dog that came onto the field and hit the decoy like a bullet out of a gun. The dog did everything right and was allowed a second bite, just as exciting as the first. But on the way off the field the dog nearly passed out and died of over heating.
> This dog must have crazy drive. Fascinating to watch perform but does he have no sense of self preservation? My long haired WGSL barely wants to do obedience when the humidity gets high. Actually that is pretty smart. *He's not going to die of working too hard in the heat unless I push him too much. * Are we breeding some of those smarts out of our dogs in favor of drive?
> 
> And after watching the video in the thread "too much whip" and seeing those dogs dodge the decoy I couldn't help but think "that is the smart thing to do". If a stranger came at me with a flying baton I think I'd back up and rethink the situation, too. Of course it is exciting to see a dog drive right past the threat and grab the sleeve but it that a sign of bravery in a dog or a lack of street smarts? Of course the IPO dogs, once they break the routine usually go back to the handler. They know that is a safe place. PP dogs are taught to duck and reengage and grab the arm with the weapon.
> ...



I'm going to take a broader view here, please bear with me.

A working dog and a human exist in _*partnership*_.

The dog should have the drive, the skill, the athleticism, the stamina, the nerve, the brain, to do what is asked, to the best of its ability. Otherwise, it isn't really a useful working dog.

The human needs to think and make choices about how to use the dog. The handler is in charge of assessing the risk level, and the dog has to trust the handler. Trust is mutual and trust is earned. 

The human won't ask the dog to run too hard or too far in terrible heat, and afterward, the human provides water and cools down the dog that has worked hard. The human won't ask the dog to run down a bear, the human decides to call the dog off. The human won't ask the dog to give chase and run headfirst into a busy road, the human has to choose what risks are acceptable. 

My BIL's hunting dog would hunt until she became physically incapable of going further. Extremely keen puppies are usually caught/picked up after a short lesson and calmly removed from livestock, they have so much drive and desire they could easily overwork themselves. These are useful dogs, working dogs, intelligent dogs. It's up to the handler to decide when to start and when to stop.

The working dog exists to support the endeavors of the handler.... otherwise, why use a dog?

When the human asks their own dog to do a trained task, under reasonable conditions, I'd consider it a fair test for a dog. Isn't that the point of any trial? Demonstrating ability to do a task for which the dog is trained.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You can condition intensity into or out of a dog as well to a large extent. 

Conditioning wise I use frisbee fetch games to keep my dogs in shape. When I want high intensity out of a dog I will break a fetch session into rounds with recovery breaks in the middle similar to interval training track and field runners might do. Early on rounds might be super short with long breaks in between. The dog will leave it all out there and go full speed because rounds are short. Dog is expecting a sprint not a marathon so the dog paces appropriately. Once the expectation of "sprinting" is there for the dog then I start making the round go a little longer and some a little shorter. The dog still sprints because that's what was conditioned. Over time the rounds get longer with a few overly short ones thrown in to keep him from catching on. The general trend is rounds get longer and longer but it happens in a creeping way so that the dog doesn't notice. As his endurance builds next thing you know he's running sprint pace for long periods of time. Periods of time where if we started the rounds that long to begin with he'd have never chosen that pace or intensity to start with. 

If I want slower longer paces I can throw the frisbee slower and higher and jog the dog under it as he's slowing to keep pace to catch. If I want faster I can throw it level with the ground and he's gotta blast out there to catch it before it hits the ground.

I can control pace and play with round or recovery length to condition my dog the way I want. During breaks I can use things like pools to insure safety and prevent overheating even in warmer weather. I watch closely and manage my dogs conditioning exactly like a track and field coach will watch his atheletes. I push, I build the dog, but ultimately I'm responsible for his safety.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I may be wrong, but I suppose police and military who use and depend on k9s basically expect those dogs to die in the line of duty if it comes to that. I can't imagine anybody would want either of those two types of dogs to be thinking of self preservation. 

Not saying they WANT their dogs to die in the line of duty because I am sure none of them do and they would all try to backup their dog however they could. But if the worst thing happens no officer wants his dog to think "I can't win this fight, you're on your own dude" 

For basically everyone else then yes I agree, I prefer a dog with more common sense. But even my old male GSD x who had more self preservation and more street smarts than any other dog I have ever known chased game back and collapsed from the heat. He wasn't particularly sensitive to heat either. To be fair it was probably not the actual chase that did him in, but running all the way back to me afterward in the FL heat. THEN he got e collar trained and that was that. in basically every other circumstance that dog was always very smart about his own safety. And he had lived as a stray for quite some time so if he had no sense he probably would not have survived.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are many things physically which could have contributed to this .

Heart problem? 

Metabolic problem , exercise induced collapse

the dog could have had an embolism


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Of course self preservation being a different story in military and police dogs which can cost a life. I still imagine some may have off days. interesting how different a job from say a gsd leading the blind where some judgment is needed on the part of the dog which In turn saving the handlers life.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I build intensity and also endurance in my dogs when training for skijoring. I want them to go all out the entire time for roughly 5-6 km so we work up to that with interval training. Start real short and leave the dog wanting more, then work up to longer and longer sprints. Someone with the pointer-mixes bred to race don't have to do this because the dogs will literally run themselves to death. 

My malinois won't run to utter exhaustion. If they get too hot, tired- they stop and take a break. If I really wanted them to continue to run all out and stop for nothing, I'd likely need to do what old-school mushers did and still do, which is mark that behavior (stopping or slowing) and then give them a beating er.. correction. For real, this is how it used (...still is by some) to be handled. Many books on training sled dogs explain exactly how to go about this.... now generally the dogs for sprinting are just genetically bred to run balls-to-wall until you stop them. Distance sled dogs (eg. Iditarod) that's a misty murky place and I've had first hand reports that endurance huskies are still trained using old-school ways. 

Point is, some of this is breeding and some is conditioning. But like Jenny said, even if it's "just" sports we are selecting for dogs that perform at the top, so if self-preservation tends to be left behind, then the onus is on the handler to make sure the dog is safe. Or with military and police dogs, self-preservation could be a negative. We want the dog to go on command, danger or not. 

I don't think this takes away self-preservation entirely. It's often a give and take scenario and up to the handlers to know their dogs and manage them accordingly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

For a German Shepherd, self preservation should include responding to a threat appropriately, not chickening out. This explains IPO protection very well. 

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

car2ner said:


> I have recently read an article about conditioning our k9 athletes. It told the story of a dog that came onto the field and hit the decoy like a bullet out of a gun. The dog did everything right and was allowed a second bite, just as exciting as the first. But on the way off the field the dog nearly passed out and died of over heating.
> This dog must have crazy drive. Fascinating to watch perform but does he have no sense of self preservation? My long haired WGSL barely wants to do obedience when the humidity gets high. Actually that is pretty smart. He's not going to die of working too hard in the heat unless I push him too much. Are we breeding some of those smarts out of our dogs in favor of drive?
> 
> And after watching the video in the thread "too much whip" and seeing those dogs dodge the decoy I couldn't help but think "that is the smart thing to do". If a stranger came at me with a flying baton I think I'd back up and rethink the situation, too. Of course it is exciting to see a dog drive right past the threat and grab the sleeve but it that a sign of bravery in a dog or a lack of street smarts? Of course the IPO dogs, once they break the routine usually go back to the handler. They know that is a safe place. PP dogs are taught to duck and reengage and grab the arm with the weapon.
> ...


In IPO there is no real threat for the dog to drive past to get the sleeve, nor are street smarts needed to do something you have practiced 1000 times before you do it in public trial.The whole field is safe and what you see on the field is more the result of training than a spontaneous exhibit of fear, self preservation or bravery.( Not demeaning IPO, just clarifying what are most important ingredients in bitesports)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I believe this all goes back to what Cliff has been harping on for years. If you breed a GSD specifically for ONE thing, in this case, high prey drive, so it can score well in IPO, the breed loses its balance. Dogs become good at IPO, but maybe not so good as house pets, guard dogs for the home, or medical or police service dogs.
> 
> As Cliff has often said, it used to be you could find dogs to perform all of these jobs IN THE SAME LITTER!
> 
> Some people still breed for this, but it's getting harder to find.


Yes, yes, and yes....lol
I have been harping on this for decades, I do believe color,specialty,andtype breeding are detrimental to the breed. 
There are some people who still breed for utility but they are substantially less than sport, show, “Lines” breeders( DDR, Czech,WGWL,etc).
The irony is that utility and discernment is no longer a priority for most of these breeders, and these breeders are considered the reputable or experts in the breed....and forum readers have become the judges of the breed based on the “ Likes” of these breeders. ?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> In IPO there is no real threat for the dog to drive past to get the sleeve


Ha, tell those dogs that.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

What a great conversation! 

I've never participated in IPO, but I have a HUGE amount of respect for the dogs and trainers that do, and I really love watching them perform! So with that in mind here's my 2 cents:

I think situational awareness/self preservation/street smarts are learned behaviors that most, if not all, IPO-titled dogs could learn easily. But it's like comparing apples to oranges. On the field (performing any task for which the dog has been trained) the dog should be willing to give its life performing that task. Any dog who pauses to think about self preservation or ponder the situation has either not been trained properly, or doesn't have the requisite nerve or intelligence to succeed as a working dog. 

That being said, in terms of breeding, when that same dog is not performing a task for which it has been trained, like playing fetch; if it's unaware enough, or just too drivey, to notice its surroundings and so would jump out a window or off a ledge in pursuit of that ball, perhaps the breed overall would benefit if it were given that opportunity!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> That being said, in terms of breeding,... if it's unaware enough, or just too drivey, to notice its surroundings and so would jump out a window or off a ledge in pursuit of that ball, perhaps the breed overall would benefit if it were given that opportunity!


ouch. Yeah, you have a point there...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Dogs engaging in sport or real work can suffer heat stroke or even exercise induced exhaustion and it can be fatal. I've seen it happen to dogs in training with other agencies. Highly driven dogs do not want to stop, even when fatigued. I can tell some stories of Boru and purposely pre exhausting him before bite work and an "outing session. Even after 15 minutes of the "2 toy" game and doing 100 yard wind sprints till fatigued, he stayed on a tricep bite on a bite suit for 28 minutes, then 15 minutes, then 10 minutes then 1 minute before releasing voluntarily. He actually put a hole through the suit into the decoy's arm. The goal of the exercise was to get Boru to out on his own, no compulsion or corrections and eliminate some of the conflict he had when I first got him. It worked, the second set later in the day was 20 minutes, 10 minutes, 3 minutes and 1 minute. For a gassed dog to stay working and on a motionless bite for almost an hour is pretty remarkable. The point is drive can push dogs and people to their limits. 

Think of the high school, college and even professional athletes that die from over exerting themselves practicing football on a hot day. Human athletes that should know better or see the signs also fall victim. I'm sure with the dogs and humans that there are other underlying medical issues that have gone unnoticed or undiagnosed. Plenty of runners drop dead while running, another reason I rarely run. 

I also think the whole comparison of dogs jumping out of windows is a little silly. I know of GSD's and other breeds that have been hurt and killed this way. Dogs do not have the same depth perception that we do. The also do not think the way we do. It doesn't mean that it is a bad dog, crazy, too high drive, etc. It just means it may not be the right dog for JQP or a good service dog for a construction worker.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

thanks folks, you have taken my random thought and turned it into a great discussion!

by the way,here is the article about being aware of the need to condition our dog to their environments.

https://loadoutroom.com/16533/k9-conditioning-preventing-injury-k9-athletes/


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thank you Slamdunc.

Adding this , Nor do they have a equation with gun = danger , maybe fatality. They are either gun
sure -- the sonic noise clap -- or they are not . 

Nor do they have a cause and effect when walking on ice , which is too thin and then 
they end up in the drink ---- able to swim to safety , but having a THINKING knowledgeable
owner go wading in to frigid water to save the dog.

The dog swims to shore and the human dies. Every spring .


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Adding this , Nor do they have a equation with gun = danger , maybe fatality. They are either gun
> sure -- the sonic noise clap -- or they are not .


Makes me wonder though, do they not have a gun=pain equation? After they've been, God forbid, injured? And, if so, can they 'come back' from the injury --- mentally, I mean. I'm reminded of reports that I've read [somewhere] that some MWDs returned to the States with what can reasonably be considered analagous to PTSD. So, I'm wondering if a similar thing could happen with some LE K9s and, if so, how that would change the way we think about all of this --- if indeed it does. 

BTW, dogs _do_ have depth perception. It's just different than depth perception in humans (e.g., not as acute) but it's there. Otherwise, lots of dogs would be falling off walls, cliffs, etc., and most would be unable to do agility. 

OT mulling: This interesting question of self-preservation (and thanks so much for raising it @car2ner) reminds me of an similar issue that always bothered me when I did jumpers in my hairy youth. In jumping competitions, the horse/rider combo is penalized more heavily for a horse's _refusing _a fence than it is for a horse's crashing through it. I understand the logic of that penalty system --- horse should be brave, commit to and jump the fence no matter how badly the rider has bungled things (e.g., insufficient speed/impulsion, sighting, striding, etc). But, it always seemed to me that it was smarter for the horse to refuse a fence to which it had been badly presented by the rider. After all, if things go badly enough both risk injury and death. Different species with different types of intelligence, but some of the risks and demands strike me as very similar. 

Aly


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> > That being said, in terms of breeding,... if it's unaware enough, or just too drivey, to notice its surroundings and so would jump out a window or off a ledge in pursuit of that ball, perhaps the breed overall would benefit if it were given that opportunity!
> 
> 
> ouch. Yeah, you have a point there...


 not sure how a dog willing to work tirelessly, having the drive to complete the task even to its own detriment would be doing the breed any favors by jumping out of a window. Unless were after more couch potatoes and even less capable working dogs than we already have. 

To the topic in general self preservation in a working dog is bad. (In my opinion at least). You don't want the dog thinking oh I could get injured fighting this bad guy - better just let him go. Oh I could die hearding these sheep, oh well I'll go lay in the shade. Whoa that's a long way down! I'm not jumping outta this plane strapped to this guy! Etc. that drive to complete the task at hand, even to his own detriment, is what we're after and it's our job as handlers (as mentioned by other posters) to keep the dog as safe as possible. I don't think there's a such thing as too much drive - just the wrong owner/situation for that particular dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> I can tell some stories of Boru and purposely pre exhausting him before bite work and an "outing session. Even after 15 minutes of the "2 toy" game and doing 100 yard wind sprints till fatigued, he stayed on a tricep bite on a bite suit for 28 minutes, then 15 minutes, then 10 minutes then 1 minute before releasing voluntarily.


WOW! I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm truly in awe! @slamsunc what's the norm on this kind of tenacity or holding time? Or do many even measure that? 

Boru is a super dog! You're a lucky man...and as others have pointed out, he's a lucky dog. Hats off to you both! Be safe, and thanks!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

thegooseman90 said:


> not sure how a dog willing to work tirelessly, having the drive to complete the task even to its own detriment would be doing the breed any favors by jumping out of a window. Unless were after more couch potatoes and even less capable working dogs than we already have.


I understood Tim's comment to be a joke with a pointy point; along the lines of a harsh Darwinian solution. Rather like these folks: http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2017.html



Aly


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I have no qualms with Tim. I think he's a likeable and generally helpful guy. And in a Darwinian sense, sure more dogs would survive if they thought that way. More would survive and breed by being more fearful of a lot of things. But that's not helpful to the breed, even for the pet crowd.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Aly said:


> I understood Tim's comment to be a joke with a pointy point; along the lines of a harsh Darwinian solution. Rather like these folks: Darwin Awards: 2017 Darwin Awards
> 
> 
> 
> Aly



I'm going to have to work on my puns apparently, but YES very much Darwinian.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

thegooseman90 said:


> More would survive and breed by being more fearful of a lot of things. But that's not helpful to the breed, even for the pet crowd.


Not quite. In the example, a dog high in self-preservation would notice that it's heading towards and possibly out of the open window of a 3 story building, say, and stop. That behavior reflects some degree of _situational awareness_, not fearfulness_ per se_. And, whether one would choose to breed for that characteristic or its opposite (assuming that it's even possible) is a different issue altogether. As is whether that behavior, as described, would make for a suitable pet. 

Aly


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> WOW! I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm truly in awe! @slamsunc what's the norm on this kind of tenacity or holding time? Or do many even measure that?
> 
> Boru is a super dog! You're a lucky man...and as others have pointed out, he's a lucky dog. Hats off to you both! Be safe, and thanks!


Thanks!
I have no idea what the average "hold" time on a bite is. I know some dogs will hold on for a long period when trying to "self out" the dog. 45 minutes is not unheard of, but I don't know of too many dogs that will dig deeper and remain as calm and bite as hard as he did for all those reps. 

Boru is a piece of work and does some things incredibly well and other things are so so. He lives to hunt and apprehend, and if you are holding him back from that single purpose mission, well good luck and hold on. Half the day, I really love the dog. The other half of the day, well, I walk around shaking my head asking myself "what was I thinking?"


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Aly said:
> 
> 
> > I understood Tim's comment to be a joke with a pointy point; along the lines of a harsh Darwinian solution. Rather like these folks: Darwin Awards: 2017 Darwin Awards
> ...


 I might've missed the pun, or the punchline, whichever it was meant to be. So I'm sorry for taking that too seriously. I saw the edit you made to your post and if there's dogs out there willing to just walk off a cliff or jump out of a window, then I agree the gene pool is probably better off without that dog in it.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

thegooseman90 said:


> I might've missed the pun, or the punchline, whichever it was meant to be. So I'm sorry for taking that too seriously. I saw the edit you made to your post and if there's dogs out there willing to just walk off a cliff or jump out of a window, then I agree the gene pool is probably better off without that dog in it.


No need to apologize, though I do appreciate it. Thank you. . It's an interesting discussion and so minds (mine included) go off in different, interesting directions. Well, I hope they're interesting. Anyway, in thinking about your above comment (warning OT meandering follows), I'm reminded of something that I read, years ago, about intelligent disobedience in GSDs. I'm wondering if a somewhat similar thing doesn't happen when a MWD/LE canine _chooses _ to run toward gunfire/explosions or after the bad guy who's already injured the K9. The dog _chooses _to do so at the risk of its own safety and despite some sense of self-preservation. I believe that some (not all and probably not many) animals can make that choice with the right training and the right partner/handler/rider. 

Aly


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Aly said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> > More would survive and breed by being more fearful of a lot of things. But that's not helpful to the breed, even for the pet crowd.
> ...


yes quite. A dog high in self preservation would also avoid loud noises. Loud noises in the wild typically means danger. Tomato, tomatoe - he's situationally aware in the wild but fearful in the home. The dog that isn't spooked off and comes to investigate could end up as food, run over by a car, etc. makes it difficult to breed at that point. We aren't talking about the above example anymore we're talking about Darwinism and the type of dog it produces. Which coincidentally is not the type of dog most of us are after. After the fact Tim said he was trying to make a pun that eluded me and changed his post to reflect some dodo bird like behavior and I agree with his edit. I don't want to derail the thread any further but I'd be more than happy to continue this debate in pm


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

thegooseman90 said:


> A dog high in self preservation would also avoid loud noises. Loud noises in the wild typically means danger. Tomato, tomatoe - he's situationally aware in the wild but fearful in the home. The dog that isn't spooked off and comes to investigate could end up as food, run over by a car, etc. makes it difficult to breed at that point. We aren't talking about the above example anymore we're talking about Darwinism and the type of dog it produces. Which coincidentally is not the type of dog most of us are after.


Would it? I don't know and that's a serious question. I wouldn't be surprised if a dog, with a _healthy _sense of self-preservation, to pause and then perhaps (even cautiously) investigate --- assuming that this is a novel, if loud, sound. I'm not convinced, on the face of it, that such a dog (without training or prior exposure, mind you) is undesirable or not worthy of breeding. For some, perhaps, but for me, it would depend on what else the dog does --- in that situation and in others. 

By contrast, I would expect a dog _high _in self-preservation/situational awareness to run, full bore, in the opposite direction. Some folks might reasonably call that fearfulness and I would too. Mind you, I'm neither in the military nor LE nor do I participate in IPO. So, my standards for 'acceptable' behavior in those and other circumstances are going to be different --- just as the standards for military, LE and IPO dogs all differ from one another in varying degrees. It seems to me that, at base, high situational awareness/self-preservation would border on the canine equivalent of paranoia. Perhaps its my limitation, but I can't imagine a circumstance in which that would be desirable behavior in most homes --- working or otherwise. I've lived with a bona fide spook; it wasn't easy. After that experience, I'd take a hard dog any day of the week. 

Aly


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Just noticed that I shifted from 'high' to 'healthy' sense of self-preservation in the previous post. In my sleep-deprived state it was less to shift the markers, so to say, and more an attempt to clarify my own thinking. Sorry if that wasn't clear. 

Aly


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sort of a pun guys....but not entirely, on my part. The important distinction in my mind is whether or not the dog is performing a given command/directive that he's been trained for. 

If so, dying in the pursuit of accomplishing that directive is the epitome of what a working dog should be.

But when operating outside of a given, and trained for, directive I would very much hope in any service - IPO, pet, LE, Military etc., that the dog would have the presence of mind NOT to follow a ball out a window. 

When it comes to gunfire or other loud noises, I've been told that MOST dogs are 1 and done. That is, once a dog connects the real life consequences of the gunfire, for example, by either being wounded personally or having their partner wounded, they're pretty much done for service. Some very exceptional dogs do continue, but it's far from the norm...and again, that's as I understand it from what I've been told...no personal experience in this for me.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I think it depends on the dog. Obviously, a working police dog is going to go through some retraining to make sure it's still fit for service after being wounded in the line of duty. I think a well-bred police dog with good nerves would respond the same way my GSD did after being hit by a car 2 weeks ago.

It took me 20 minutes of desensitization in the Tim Horton's parking lot to get her comfortable with cars going past at close range again. And that was after suffering some pretty serious injuries - a partially collapsed lung and internal bleeding.

Her father is a police K9, which may explain why she responded so well to the desensitization.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> I think it depends on the dog. Obviously, a working police dog is going to go through some retraining to make sure it's still fit for service after being wounded in the line of duty. I think a well-bred police dog with good nerves would respond the same way my GSD did after being hit by a car 2 weeks ago.
> 
> It took me 20 minutes of desensitization in the Tim Horton's parking lot to get her comfortable with cars going past at close range again. And that was after suffering some pretty serious injuries - a partially collapsed lung and internal bleeding.
> 
> Her father is a police K9, which may explain why she responded so well to the desensitization.


I don?t know I would imagine you have to know your dog to determine this and not one thing. I had a dog as a kid he was hit by a car it was pretty bad he almost died. Broken ribs his sinus cavity mangled. In the hospital for two weeks i think more. He ran right out the door into the street at night Teddy - I remember when we brought him home he blew up like a water ballon with air they had to put him in a body cast for another two weeks. He was always fine with cars never had to be trained. He was not the bravest dog. I remember as kids having a snowball fight it got out of hand neighbors kids opens the door to my moms house throwing snowballs - teddy took off to hide. Lol! Poor boy but certain settings he looked like a brave soul. He was a such a great dog though and the reason why I am dog crazed!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I did a quick search this AM and found several articles on canine PTSD. They focus largely on PTSD in MWD, for obvious reasons, but all point to the likelihood of similar phenomena among LE canines. Sad (we ask so much of our 2 and 4-legged warriors), but interesting reading: 


More Military Dogs Show Signs of Combat Stress - NYTimes.com

Four-Legged Warriors Show Signs Of PTSD : NPR

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder In Dogs - IVC Journal

https://veterinarypracticenews.com/can-dogs-suffer-from-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Darwin tried to explain changes which were adaptive to environment and allowed for success --- natural selection 

When humans get involved it is an entirely different matter.

We choose for traits which may never ever be possible without great human involvement -- dogs with skulls so big that they can't have a natural birth -- dogs with nostrils almost behind the eyes -- dogs that remain perpectually infantile/juvenile -- dogs that will take on lions (Rhodesian Ridgeback) , willingly bring downed game to hand etc etc.

We choose to select for reduced avoidance . Belyaev has done this with his fox colony. 

Self preservation ? what about all the threads we have with resource guarding -- food -- self preservation 101.

There it is at the most primal level . (let the dog eat in peace)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Aly-Yes those are great articles. I heard a story of a handler and her malinois searching for drugs at the airport they recovered many drugs over the years working at the local airport. There was a very heavy large box that was on a very high shelf and must of not been sitting right. The dog was searching and the box fell on the dog injuring it. After the dog healed from his injuries and returned to work the dog was worried about the boxes falling on him hindering his work and the handler had to retire him.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

interesting articles Aly. I am not surprised that PTSD can exist in military and LE dogs. I hadn't really given it much thought with household pets.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

That last article was very interesting @Aly! Hopefully they'll start issuing beta blockers to military and LE k9 handlers. Might even have human potential no?

It's amazing how similar the dog's with PTSD act, to the behavior that is often blamed on weak nerves by rescues and pet owners. But these military dogs would have washed out of their training program if they had weak nerves right? Hopefully this research is ongoing and fully funded >


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've had a dog that was truly weak nerved. She was scared of things she'd never been exposed to, not BECAUSE of exposure, but just because they were new.

That included small dogs. A small 8 week old puppy ran towards her one day, and she responded with such fear that she jerked the leash out of my hand. 

I didn't let her play with small dogs, because she was so big I was afraid she'd hurt them.

I think that was the day i decided to rehome her...:frown2:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> I've had a dog that was truly weak nerved. She was scared of things she'd never been exposed to, not BECAUSE of exposure, but just because they were new.
> 
> That included small dogs. A small 8 week old puppy ran towards her one day, and she responded with such fear that she jerked the leash out of my hand.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your dog, I can only imagine how hard that would be!

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that weak nerves are always blamed incorrectly! It's a very real thing which I've seen many times.

But I personally had a dog that seemed weak nerved when I rescued her, transform into the most stable, confident, solid nerved animal you can imagine. This transformation has always seemed to defy common understanding of genetics. It took a couple years, but it's always made me cautious to pin fear behaviors on nerves too quickly. I think this does happen a lot, and it instantly lowers the perceived potential for the dog and sort of guides people's expectations - can't overcome genetics right? I truly believe that lots of these animals can be helped...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Aly said:


> Makes me wonder though, do they not have a gun=pain equation? After they've been, God forbid, injured? And, if so, can they 'come back' from the injury --- mentally, I mean. I'm reminded of reports that I've read [somewhere] that some MWDs returned to the States with what can reasonably be considered analagous to PTSD. So, I'm wondering if a similar thing could happen with some LE K9s and, if so, how that would change the way we think about all of this --- if indeed it does.
> 
> BTW, dogs _do_ have depth perception. It's just different than depth perception in humans (e.g., not as acute) but it's there. Otherwise, lots of dogs would be falling off walls, cliffs, etc., and most would be unable to do agility.
> 
> ...


Regarding the the depth perception, what I said was that dogs do not have the same death perception that we do. I suppose we agree. 

I know of several MWD's that have been shot and have come back to work and gone on several deployments with Tier 1 Military teams. I've seen several that have had serious wounds survive and go back to work. AK rounds through the head and back to work, Malinois seem to have very small brains. The teams take great care of their dogs and have excellent casualty and trauma training which saves many of their dogs lives. 

I've also seen some high end MWD's with PTSD and no longer work well in a combat environment but can function very well as a Police K-9. There are many Police K-9's that have been seriously wounded either by being stabbed or shot and have recovered and come back to work. It really depends on the injury and the dog to see if they can come back to work.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Malinois seem to have very small brains.


And sometimes you ask, "What was I thinking?" Sometimes?? Lol.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> This transformation has always seemed to defy common understanding of genetics. It took a couple years, but it's always made me cautious to pin fear behaviors on nerves too quickly. I think this does happen a lot, and it instantly lowers the perceived potential for the dog and sort of guides people's expectations - can't overcome genetics right? I truly believe that lots of these animals can be helped...


Welcome to the dark side! >

Aly


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> That last article was very interesting @Aly! Hopefully they'll start issuing beta blockers to military and LE k9 handlers. Might even have human potential no?


Glad you enjoyed it. Research on uptake inhibitors started with mice, as I recall, and, once the models were sufficiently detailed, extended to humans. I suspect (have to go back and check) that the success of those applications was the basis for investigating the use of beta blockers in canines --- once vets, military and LE personnel began to draw parallels between PTSD/PTSD-like behavior in canines and humans.

Frankly, I'm somewhat ambivalent about all of this. The problem is that dogs can't _tell _you how they're feeling physically and, most importantly, emotionally. Yet, self report indices were critical in determining the success of beta blockers in humans --- particularly when it comes to getting the dosage right. With dogs, one only has (hopefully sound) behavioral observation to go on. At best, that can be a fairly tricky proposition. Though I understand the calculu$ of war and, to a somewhat lesser degree, LE, I also wonder whether it's a good thing to 'patch' the warrior back up and return him to the frontlines, as it were. I get wanting the dog to be less distressed in everyday life, but I suspect that the fungible application may be aimed at getting the canine back on the job. That we can, doesn't automagically mean that we should, IMO. 

Aly


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Slamdunc said:


> Regarding the the depth perception, what I said was that dogs do not have the same death perception that we do. I suppose we agree.


Oops! Apparently, we do. LOL. Sorry about that.

Interesting that your experience seems to map onto the incidence cited in the posted articles, including the observation that outcomes vary by individual dog. That said, I do wonder what the 'true' incidence is as this is all relatively new stuff. I also wonder whether symptomology and treatment response vary, among canines (small brains or not ), in ways similar to how they've been observed to vary in humans (e.g., with age). 

It's sadly ironic that approaches to/understanding of ER treatment in humans grew exponentially with modern warfare and that the same thing appears to be happening with dogs. 

Aly


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

car2ner said:


> interesting articles Aly. I am not surprised that PTSD can exist in military and LE dogs. I hadn't really given it much thought with household pets.


Interesting stuff, no? Just as I think we tend to romanticize genetic influences, I also think that we tend to cast negative environmental impacts in somewhat extreme terms (e.g., systemic abuse, war, hurricanes). But, environmental influences can be and often are much more subtle _and _complicated, and timing is everything. 

Aly


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Aly said:


> Interesting stuff, no? Just as I think we tend to romanticize genetic influences, I also think that we tend to cast negative environmental impacts in somewhat extreme terms (e.g., systemic abuse, war, hurricanes). But, environmental influences can be and often are much more subtle _and _complicated, and timing is everything.
> 
> Aly


My Big Boy was dangerously hurt under some pines in our yard. I was wondering if he would be fearful of that area when allowed to play in the yard again once he was healed. His first visit to that piney area was a bit cautious but after that, no shyness at all going under the trees. Perhaps he is a bit wiser. I have no problem with that. If he has learned how to avoid getting injured and yet still play / work all the better. We aren't in a high stress situation here at home. He has the luxury of being a bit more cautious. I do think his ability to recover mentally is genetic. The rest is trusting his people. Yes, timing can mean a lot.


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## deacon (Sep 5, 2011)

My "MWD Tasha 031C" tracked a female down in a parking lot after stabbing her husband one evening. Upon her arrival and my some 50' behind off lead, the female backed her car up striking Tasha hard and sent her skidding across the parking lot for several feet. She then sped off before I could open fire on her. The other Shift MP,s caught her trying to exit the base at one of the gates. 


Tasha was off her feet for more than six weeks and both her and I were very depressed about it. I saw it in her eyes each day and began wondering if she was not going to return to active duty. When she started walking again she still seemed so far away, she barely acknowledged my calling her name at times.


As she began walking better, I decided to take her to all the patrol dog sessions and let her watch the other dogs during routine training. She would listen as the other dogs were barking, handlers shouting verbal warnings before releasing their dogs to chase or search, until one session of building search where the handler was shouting the warning prior to releasing his dog to enter the building, Tasha began barking and pulling me forward on the leash just as if she was performing the exercise.


After being cleared by the vet, she made a full recovery and went on to have a very successful career as a Patrol/Explosive K-9. We served seven years together until her deployment to Desert Storm where she worked at Frankfurt, Germany checking personel and equipment prior to entry at the hospital as that was where most injuries projected would be flown to.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Interesting point that's being brought up. I believe that a good working dog needs a little bit of a lack of self preservation in certain conditions. They are after all bred to work for us, often times in life or death situations. A overly cautious dog would not be good at those types of jobs. 

They still need to be clear headed in drive. I think there are a lot of sport dogs out there being bred for that intensity but are hectic in drive and incapable of doing much other than the sport. A hectic dog is no fun to live with and may not even be good at it's job because of needless injury. It's a fine line between the two, balance is key.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

car2ner said:


> An IPO dog might not protect the owner if a real danger came up. The dog learns to bite a sleeve and wait for a cue from the handler. In real life there is no bite sleeve, hits will hurt more and punches and kicks come into play. Since the dogs aren't shown, taught or practice what to do in a situation like that they get confused and run back to the handler..."tell me what to do boss, this guy isn't playing by the rules". IPO was a test that dogs in Germany went through BEFORE breeding or training for other things.
> I just wonder as some people breed our dogs to look flashy in a trial, is there a trade off? And Sunsilver brought up a good point. I have also heard about dogs so ball crazy they completely loose sight of their surroundings and jump off of a ledge, out a window or break their necks crashing into a tree.


What are your thoughts on a ring sport dog being more likely to protect the owner since they bite the suit? Was there ever a time that IPO dogs would bite the suit?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Wolfhund said:


> What are your thoughts on a ring sport dog being more likely to protect the owner since they bite the suit? Was there ever a time that IPO dogs would bite the suit?


A suit is equipment just like a sleeve, an IPO dog can easily bite a suit. Biting a suit does not mean a dog will bite a person for real or be effective at protecting it's handler in a truly serious situation. Training a dog to be really be protective and act in an aggressive fashion is not an equipment issue, but a dog issue and a training issue. The dog must have the right genetics, solid nerves and drives and be confident and civil enough to stand up to a real threat. There are plenty of IPO with the right combination of traits to do this. 

If you want to see a sport that prepares a dog well to face a serious threat, look at KNPV. The KNPV program is pretty well established as a venue that prepares dogs for LE and high end MWD's.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> A suit is equipment just like a sleeve, an IPO dog can easily bite a suit. Biting a suit does not mean a dog will bite a person for real or be effective at protecting it's handler in a truly serious situation. Training a dog to be really be protective and act in an aggressive fashion is not an equipment issue, but a dog issue and a training issue. The dog must have the right genetics, solid nerves and drives and be confident and civil enough to stand up to a real threat. There are plenty of IPO with the right combination of traits to do this.
> 
> If you want to see a sport that prepares a dog well to face a serious threat, look at KNPV. The KNPV program is pretty well established as a venue that prepares dogs for LE and high end MWD's.


Very thoughtful post. A lot of criticism I hear is that IPO has been watered down over the years compared to Ring Sports. I am curious if IPO in its early days looked more similar to French Ring. 

I know a lot of folks in the Ring Sports say that their dog would never bite a person without equipment on. I wonder how much of that is just marketing to make the sport more palatable to a public that doesn't understand the sport vs. the % of dogs who would bite a person without equipment. I would like to see a test done to see the % of dogs who would bite a person with hidden equipment after getting several titles in French Ring.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

IPO and French Ring are two completely different sports. In tennis and volleyball the object of the game is to hit a ball over the net, however they are two completely different sports. A comparison of one to the other, like IPO to Ring is like apples to oranges. If you have experience and can read dogs, you can tell the serious IPO dogs from the more sporty ones. Ring is a prey based sport, but you are dealing with different dogs, rules and decoy work. Getting bit by a high prey drive dog still hurts. I do not know of anyone personally that would say a Ring dog would never bite a person with out a suit. That is an extreme generalization and each dog is different. 

Again "hidden equipment" is still equipment. You see dogs have an amazing olfactory system and can smell equipment from a long distance. IMHO, hidden equipment that is new and used once is ok for training. The second time it is no different than a sleeve or a bite suit. 

I test dogs all the time and all the equipment I need is a good leash and a handler to hold it. Then some eye contact and dirty look is all I need to illicit a civil reaction. Equipment is not needed to tell if a dog will bite for real. The correct motivation and an opportunity for the dog to react and show it's civil side plus a person that can read dogs is what is needed.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> I do not know of anyone personally that would say a Ring dog would never bite a person with out a suit. That is an extreme generalization and each dog is different.


Lisa Geller, president of the association, says that’s simply not the case. She says that even her own dog, which just won the national championship on May 19 in Rush City, Minn., would never bite anyone. “We have an exercise that’s called ‘defense of handler.’ I don’t think there are many dogs that do mondioring that would defend their handlers,” she says, except in a trial, adding that they’re just too friendly. Considering how long it takes to train a dog in the sport, it’s no surprise that they’re socialized to that degree.

Best In Show Daily


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

That is a shame, truly a shame. If she has working malinois that would never bite a person, she might as well start doing conformation shows with them. Well, this is why we use KNPV Dutch Shepherds and Malinois, they are different dogs than the FCI ones.

ETA: I just glanced at the article and it is from "Best in Show" magazine. Go figure. She is definitely marketing to her audience.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Self preservation: My take on this topic is that you have to assess it through the perspective/ traits of a dog rather than a human. Dogs don’t have the same priority of assessing danger that man has. Smell is much more important to dogs in assessing danger, and practically nonexistent for man. Instincts are much more valuable to dog as opposed to reasoning by man. Flight is major component of self preservation once danger has been assessed and very natural. Most people assess what they see in dogs through their human prism, good trainers understand the way dogs look at things and process things through their senses in order to achieve training. Some things perceived by the uninformed as weak in a dog is actually natural for the inherent danger involved. Man has developed some traits past good balance for self preservation. Should prey drive be so high as to attack a rattlesnake, overriding the instinctive trait of danger this animal presents? High defense in animals doesn’t always mean high fight or fight at all. The primary time that a dog will fight a predator is a mother with babies, but otherwise self preservation is flight.
Just some random thoughts on the subject.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

A good point there Cliffson. In nature it is too dangerous to start a fight. There is too much risk for serious injury or infection. It takes too much energy. It would take a serious threat to territory, resources, offspring or potential mate for a deadly fight to break out. 

Since the threats around me are not usually deadly, I like that my dog, when facing something new, takes a moment to consider it and then choses how to respond. I can certainly see there would be times when a "bite first ask questions later" attitude would be a better mindset. 

But for sports, if we want a higher drive dogs we really need to be their advocates to keep them safe. I just think to get the really high scores we might be creating lopsided dogs...lots of speed, less good sense.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Wolfhund said:


> Lisa Geller, president of the association, says that’s simply not the case. She says that even her own dog, which just won the national championship on May 19 in Rush City, Minn., would never bite anyone. “We have an exercise that’s called ‘defense of handler.’ I don’t think there are many dogs that do mondioring that would defend their handlers,” she says, except in a trial, adding that they’re just too friendly. Considering how long it takes to train a dog in the sport, it’s no surprise that they’re socialized to that degree.
> 
> Best In Show Daily





Slamdunc said:


> That is a shame, truly a shame. If she has working malinois that would never bite a person, she might as well start doing conformation shows with them. Well, this is why we use KNPV Dutch Shepherds and Malinois, they are different dogs than the FCI ones.
> 
> ETA: I just glanced at the article and it is from "Best in Show" magazine. Go figure. She is definitely marketing to her audience.


Lisa is being interviewed by someone outside the sport and also coming from a different part of the dog world. This is only my guess, but her responses may have been based on this. She appears to be successful in her chosen sport (mondioring) and being directed to do conformation is a bit unfair imop.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nigel said:


> Lisa is being interviewed by someone outside the sport and also coming from a different part of the dog world. This is only my guess, but her responses may have been based on this. She appears to be successful in her chosen sport (mondioring) and being directed to do conformation is a bit unfair imop.


Well, when someone makes a statement like hers about Mondio and Malinois she is painting wth a broad brush. While her dogs may be "sport" dogs and not ever going to defend her for real, I wouldn't characterize all Mondioring dogs in that way. 

*“We have an exercise that’s called ‘defense of handler.’ I don’t think there are many dogs that do mondioring that would defend their handlers,” she says, except in a trial, adding that they’re just too friendly*

It would really be a shame if her statement was actually even close to being accurate. Nothing wrong with a friendly working dog, but let's not mistake a dog being friendly from a dog that can not defend itself or it's owner. While I know better than most what a dog needs to have and do to defend it's owner, statements like hers are very concerning to me. 

JMO FWIW


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh I don't know??? The whole point of "Dog's" is they do as they've been trained??? A bond of trust, why should all the onwnest be on the dog to always make good choices, if he is doing something he "routinely" does??? 

Not throwing a ball out an above ground window, would solve that problem??? As would not requiring a dog to perform until he collapses??? The handler did not know it was hot and the dog was working to hard??? 

And the rattlesnake, thing??? I would question if a dog can understand that a "Rattle Snake" could kill them??? Yes there is no shortage of dogs saving babies from "Rattle Snakes!" But there is also no shortage of dogs attacking Rattle Snakes as a matter of course??? They got fangs and so do I seems like a fair fight to me (some dogs.) We have annual, Rattlesnake avoidance classes out here. It would seem, some dogs don't get the "Rattlesnakes are bad" memo???


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> Well, when someone makes a statement like hers about Mondio and Malinois she is painting wth a broad brush. While her dogs may be "sport" dogs and not ever going to defend her for real, I wouldn't characterize all Mondioring dogs in that way.
> 
> *“We have an exercise that’s called ‘defense of handler.’ I don’t think there are many dogs that do mondioring that would defend their handlers,” she says, except in a trial, adding that they’re just too friendly*
> 
> ...


She didn't say all, she says "many" which doesn't sound all that much different from what you see mentioned here on this forum about dogs/schutzhund and biting for real. As far as her dogs biting for real, who knows, you can always take her for her word, it is what she said, but some people can be guarded in their conversations with "outsiders" so to speak. 

I'm seeing more and more mals and some Dutchies at our club that are very friendly and social dogs. It surprised me to see them act the way they do. My gsds are aloof, but will accept interaction with people I'm ok with at the club, vet, neighborhood ect... I imagined mals/Dutchies would be somewhat similar in that aspect, but that hasn't been the case.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

What is it that makes a dog capable of biting "for real"? Is it a human aggressive dog who's learned an appropriate time to bite? A dog with high defense/fight drive? In other words, what characteristics do you look for in a dog to bite for real? Or, for that matter, how would you test it? Obviously you can't turn the dog on someone without equipment. Another thing I heard from a couple of breeders in my own search was a "real" dog isn't necessarily a great candidate for IPO because his natural instinct isn't to bite and hold but rather to shred - I assume an IPO dog that will bite and hold an intruder isn't ideal either because it leaves the dog open to attack in some vulnerable areas while doing relatively little damage to, say a forearm.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

There are many PP trainers who say this same thing, the bite and hold is not natural and not desirable in a PP dog....

But a Mal that wouldn't bite is an oxymoron:>


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nigel said:


> She didn't say all, she says "many" which doesn't sound all that much different from what you see mentioned here on this forum about dogs/schutzhund and biting for real. As far as her dogs biting for real, who knows, you can always take her for her word, it is what she said, but some people can be guarded in their conversations with "outsiders" so to speak.
> 
> I'm seeing more and more mals and some Dutchies at our club that are very friendly and social dogs. It surprised me to see them act the way they do. My gsds are aloof, but will accept interaction with people I'm ok with at the club, vet, neighborhood ect... I imagined mals/Dutchies would be somewhat similar in that aspect, but that hasn't been the case.


Many dogs are friendly and social, including Malinois, DS and GSD's. That does not preclude these dogs from being very serious and able to protect their handlers. I have many dogs in our unit that are extremely social, friendly and outgoing. All of these dogs will bite for real and have numerous street bites. These include several Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. Many Malinois are very outgoing and social and actually crave affection when not working. It is part of what makes them biddable and able to work. 

I have no issue in taking her word for her own dogs, the rest of her statement is what concerns me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

car2ner said:


> I have recently read an article about conditioning our k9 athletes. It told the story of a dog that came onto the field and hit the decoy like a bullet out of a gun. The dog did everything right and was allowed a second bite, just as exciting as the first. But on the way off the field the dog nearly passed out and died of over heating.
> This dog must have crazy drive. Fascinating to watch perform but does he have no sense of self preservation? My long haired WGSL barely wants to do obedience when the humidity gets high. Actually that is pretty smart. He's not going to die of working too hard in the heat unless I push him too much. Are we breeding some of those smarts out of our dogs in favor of drive?
> 
> And after watching the video in the thread "too much whip" and seeing those dogs dodge the decoy I couldn't help but think "that is the smart thing to do". If a stranger came at me with a flying baton I think I'd back up and rethink the situation, too. Of course it is exciting to see a dog drive right past the threat and grab the sleeve but it that a sign of bravery in a dog or a lack of street smarts? Of course the IPO dogs, once they break the routine usually go back to the handler. They know that is a safe place. PP dogs are taught to duck and reengage and grab the arm with the weapon.
> ...


IPO is a sport. It's a game. These dogs are not trained to do anything but score points in the "protection" phase. I am not dismissing the training involved, but what was supposed to be a courage test has turned into a spectator sport. PPD's don't bite and hold because it would endanger them, but a PPD should not be chasing someone down either. It's place is with it's handler.
Why breeders are breeding sport dogs is beyond me. It really is. There is no "street sense" because they aren't working dogs anymore. In typical human fashion we have taken the perfect dog and "improved" it to the point that it is no good except as a toy, because really that's what a sport dog is.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

thegooseman90 said:


> What is it that makes a dog capable of biting "for real"? Is it a human aggressive dog who's learned an appropriate time to bite? A dog with high defense/fight drive? In other words, what characteristics do you look for in a dog to bite for real? Or, for that matter, how would you test it? Obviously you can't turn the dog on someone without equipment. Another thing I heard from a couple of breeders in my own search was a "real" dog isn't necessarily a great candidate for IPO because his natural instinct isn't to bite and hold but rather to shred - I assume an IPO dog that will bite and hold an intruder isn't ideal either because it leaves the dog open to attack in some vulnerable areas while doing relatively little damage to, say a forearm.


What makes a dog capable of biting for real? Genetics for one, nerves and temperament. You have to separate the strong dogs from the sharp / shy or fear biters. If we are talking about strong dogs, confident dogs with good nerves then I would say genetics, training and drives. 

*A dog with high defense/fight drive? In other words, what characteristics do you look for in a dog to bite for real?* Strong nerves, a strong temperament, confident and good thresholds. I like high prey drive dogs, high fight drive and good defense. The dogs must be "civil" and be able to react to a perceived threat or challenge with aggression. 

I can easily test a dog to see how it will respond to challenge with out equipment and know if the dog will bite for real. 

*Another thing I heard from a couple of breeders in my own search was a "real" dog isn't necessarily a great candidate for IPO because his natural instinct isn't to bite and hold but rather to shred - I assume an IPO dog that will bite and hold an intruder isn't ideal either because it leaves the dog open to attack in some vulnerable areas while doing relatively little damage to, say a forearm*

In contrast to what some people think, a "real" dog can be an excellent IPO candidate. My dog Boomer was a National level IPO dog if we had gone that route. Every one of his street bites was full, hard and crushing. Don't get all hung up on this "bite and hold" stuff either. You have been speaking to some very misinformed breeders. What you are describing are dogs, IMHO with genetics that limit their ability. I find a dog that wants to "shred" or bites shallow rather than "bite and hold" calmly has some issues, to defensive and not 100% committed to the fight. The dog they describe has some insecurities and / or needs better training. I spend a lot of time in training on bite development and teaching a "push in bite." I test and select dogs with a genetically full bite and then enhance that bite through training. 

In the end, a dog biting full, hard and calm causes significant pain compliance and less injury than a dog that shreds or bites shallow. The whole idea of the dog being vulnerable and doing little damage is nonsense. Sounds like the stuff of one breeder / importer that is a _legend in his own mind_ and the novices that fall for his BS. Something some say to sell mediocre dogs they screwed up in training. The reality is in what the dog brings, how much power the dog has and the desire or commitment to fight and win. That makes a good LE K9, PPD or sport dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Please do not blame IPO for the shortcomings of the GSD's that we have. It is really not the fault of those that breed for sport and actually go out and work, title and train their dogs. In the scheme of things, working line GSD's that compete are a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of litters being bred every year. IPO is not the problem. If you find a breeder that actually works, trains and competes with dogs from their breeding you will generally find decent dogs.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I just recently started doing IPO helper work. I have always heard the same things about the full calm bites being less effective for personal protection or real life scenarios. Never questioned it until just this past weekend. I had the chance to work a very real dog in a controlled protection scenario. Controlled for my safety. There is definitely no issues with this dogs full calm bites. As a matter of fact I guarantee this dog would do more damage and stop any threat quicker than a dog that was all over the place on the bite or shallow. And the dog knew it.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

thanks for an excellent reply. I was hoping this question would be answered by someone with experience with dogs with real bites. Ironically enough I guess I passed on those breeders because I started to lean more towards and ipo dog as I began to learn more about the breed. 

One thing I want to expand on is when you say you can test the dog without equipment and tell if he'll bite for real, what kind of test? I ask because the trainer I'm working with now is a retired le k9 handler and trains his dogs as such. At 7 months old my pup isn't to that point but I'm just curious as to what kind of things to look for when that time comes to better understand what I'm seeing from the dog and trainer.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Please do not blame IPO for the shortcomings of the GSD's that we have. It is really not the fault of those that breed for sport and actually go out and work, title and train their dogs. In the scheme of things, working line GSD's that compete are a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of litters being bred every year. IPO is not the problem. If you find a breeder that actually works, trains and competes with dogs from their breeding you will generally find decent dogs.


Why would I blame a sport? I blame the humans involved in said sport. And all training is a good thing, I simply dislike being told that a given breeders dogs are no good for pets or work, only for sport. Producing pups with such over the top drives is detrimental to the breed. A working dog needs to be capable and balanced, in all things. My working dog was also part of everyday life, and not once did I concern myself about attacks on welcome guests or family. 
A working dog should not be a threat, except to those in the wrong. And a GSD should not need to be exercised like a pro athlete to be tolerable company.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@thegooseman90,
7 months is too early to really test for most dogs. One of the tests that I do is a simple stake out test or back tie the dog. Usually, eye contact is enough to illicit the response from a strong dog. Suspicious movement or stalking can be done starting at a distance. The key thing is to read the dog and look for signs of avoidance. Also, young dogs like 10 months to a year amy be so confident that they stand there ground but are not defensive or aggressive. You have to take age and maturity into account and base your judgement on the dog's responses. I will grade a young dog high on my scale if it stands it's ground and is not phased by me, even when I am pressuring the dog. I would expect a different reaction from an older, more mature dog.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> And a GSD should not need to be exercised like a pro athlete to be tolerable company.


I've seen this sentiment posted fairly frequently, and I have to admit... I don't really understand it. 

I mean, they are derived from tending dogs after all. Designed to trot for hours and hours on end. Getting in more exercise in an average "work day" than most pro athletes do on their regular maintenance days. 

If you want the working traits intact, it seems that you should expect a high energy level to come along with those traits, as that would be a requirement for the dog to perform it's traditional job.

My assumption is that if I am looking at a working breed, especially one of the endurance trotting breeds, I should expect the exercise needs of that dog to be quantified in hours not minutes. If I happen to get a lower energy one, then great. Lucky me. But I just do not see how the higher energy dogs are a detriment to the breed as a whole... Low energy and low drive tend to go hand in hand... those are the ones contributing the the gene pool I am more worried about.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I've seen this sentiment posted fairly frequently, and I have to admit... I don't really understand it.
> 
> I mean, they are derived from tending dogs after all. Designed to trot for hours and hours on end. Getting in more exercise in an average "work day" than most pro athletes do on their regular maintenance days.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand. Exercise yes, but if my dog is off the wall because we missed a walk that's a problem. A dog that is so crazed for a ball that it disregards it's own safety is an issue.
And tending dogs spent hours doing essentially nothing as well. Sabi used to sit at the door vibrating when the work phone rang, or I put on my gear. But she didn't drive me bonkers or trash stuff if we had to wait a few hours in the truck, or if we took a day off. Billy loved work but at no point was he out of control or so in drive that he was a hazard to himself. Any of my dogs would dodge a swing or a kick, as they should, but they weren't running away they were simply smart enough to not get hit.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> I've seen this sentiment posted fairly frequently, and I have to admit... I don't really understand it.
> 
> I mean, they are derived from tending dogs after all. Designed to trot for hours and hours on end. Getting in more exercise in an average "work day" than most pro athletes do on their regular maintenance days.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about sheep herding at all, but I am told the GSD's task was that of a living fence and I am left with the impression that this is what they are intended to do the better part of the day:


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I could see my female being happy doing this "living fence" work. She likes to be on the move nearly all day, but she is still very young...just two. My Big Boy (long haired WGSL) at 3 1/2 has learned to conserve energy for when he needs it. He started this when he turned 3. He'll gladly sit in the middle of the yard and keep watch but when the need arises he moves out like he was shot from a cannon. I do admit, though, that he is the one who slows down in the humid days of summer. So I don't know if it is drive so much as being uncomfortably hot some seasons. This is when I am glad he is not so driven that he won't stop to cool down if we are out working in the yard together and I miss signs of struggle.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Oh I don't know??? The whole point of "Dog's" is they do as they've been trained??? A bond of trust, why should all the onwnest be on the dog to always make good choices, if he is doing something he "routinely" does???
> 
> Not throwing a ball out an above ground window, would solve that problem??? As would not requiring a dog to perform until he collapses??? The handler did not know it was hot and the dog was working to hard???
> 
> And the rattlesnake, thing??? I would question if a dog can understand that a "Rattle Snake" could kill them??? Yes there is no shortage of dogs saving babies from "Rattle Snakes!" But there is also no shortage of dogs attacking Rattle Snakes as a matter of course??? They got fangs and so do I seems like a fair fight to me (some dogs.) We have annual, Rattlesnake avoidance classes out here. It would seem, some dogs don't get the "Rattlesnakes are bad" memo???


So you don’t think that a dog can understand the DANGER a rattlesnake presents,( that is what I wrote)?, okay then, we have completely different understandings of dogs and I’ll leave it at that. After all, I don’t want to hurt your feelings with my opinion.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> IPO is a sport. It's a game. These dogs are not trained to do anything but score points in the "protection" phase. I am not dismissing the training involved, but what was supposed to be a courage test has turned into a spectator sport. PPD's don't bite and hold because it would endanger them, but a PPD should not be chasing someone down either. It's place is with it's handler.
> Why breeders are breeding sport dogs is beyond me. It really is. There is no "street sense" because they aren't working dogs anymore. In typical human fashion we have taken the perfect dog and "improved" it to the point that it is no good except as a toy, because really that's what a sport dog is.


That's an interesting perspective. Did you form it from any particular experience? Trialing? Spectating? Internet chatter? Anything?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

This was my thought as well Steve Strom, but honestly, I only know enough to get myself into trouble. I'm really enjoying this discussion. I like hearing from people who have experience both in the sport world and the real life working world. Their insight is valuable, especially to those of us who only see part of the picture.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> So you don’t think that a dog can understand the DANGER a rattlesnake presents,( that is what I wrote)&#55357;&#56900;, okay then, we have completely different understandings of dogs and I’ll leave it at that. After all, I don’t want to hurt your feelings with my opinion.


Oh don't be like that, I do value your opinion. 

It's just that where I live, we don't have trees (woods), mosquitoes or porcupines??? But we do have Rattlesnakes and yes, they are best to be avoided. My Boxer and my American Band Dawg, I'd get the Rattlesnake vaccines for. It never came into play but you never know?? I have no idea if they would have actually attacked a Rattlesnake but just in case, they did??

Still the best preparation for the unexpected, is a well trained dog. Hence the annual "Rattlesnake avoidance classes" at our local Dog Park. I don't know, how many dogs actually attacked the rattlesnakes??? Most likely they were just running out and about and stumbled across them and got struck before they could get out of the way??? 

My friends Boxer got struck by a Rattlesnake but I'm pretty sure that was a "stumbled upon (the rattlesnake) case??" Rocky and to your point, made good choices, independent of me in regards to rattlesnakes. In high brush, he'd let me take point and if there was a Rattlesnake in the brush ... he figured I'd Stumble across it first. 

But my next dog will attend the Rattlesnake avoidance, classes. I'll take note of how long it takes some of the attendees (dog's) to get the (snakes are bad memessage??? 

Rattlesnakes out here are a clear and present danger and I'd just as soon my dogs be properly trained to "stay away" rather than taking a chance on there instincts??

This is a dog forum not cat's but this clip does speak to instinct and what animals perceive as danger??? 


Perhaps Alligator avoidance training for cat's would be a great business model in Florida??


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> That's an interesting perspective. Did you form it from any particular experience? Trialing? Spectating? Internet chatter? Anything?


I dislike the assumption that I am an idiot.

I worked dogs. For over 15 years. Real working dogs that had to push through brutal weather conditions and innumerable distractions. Dogs that had to swing from crowd control to building searches to personal protection to detection at the drop of a hat. Dogs that had to have the discernment and presence of mind to know the difference between the cleaners and the thieves. Dogs that had to be level headed enough to pull twelve hour shifts as deterrant presence at the Calgary Stampede during the day and swing to active crowd control when the sun went down. 
My partner and I had to do stand by for evacuation of a Cirque de Soleil show when funnel clouds threatened. Ever try to move a few thousand people in a hurry? We dealt with prostitutes, junkies, dealers, car thieves and all manner of scum on a daily basis. And understand that security in Canada work unarmed and when I started we were not allowed body armor or batons. For the first few years I had no radio and no phone. My partner was my only backup and unless I found a pay phone no help was coming.
So dont assume I know nothing. As I said I appreciate the training. But its a game and I look for different things in a dog then the ability to impress a spectator.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

None of that has anything to do with IPO. My only assumption was you had no experience with it so no valid reason for being so insulting to the people or dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> None of that has anything to do with IPO. My only assumption was you had no experience with it so no valid reason for being so insulting to the people or dogs.


Again assumptions. I insulted no one, I stated that it is a sport. That it has no bearing on real life work. One of my partners, Billy, was sold to a man I believe Carmen and a few others here know, a Peter something in Edmonton. He was a stellar patrol dog, an absolute dream to work with and a dog I have fond memories of. Apparently his new owner was less then impressed with his trial performance.
A simply stunning female who showed great promise as a working dog, I think her name was Ilsa, went to either Jan or Peter and was a total washout at trials. Too flat they said. I worked that girl before she left. She was awesome. Took a dog from some lady Jan knew, scored great, no work ability at all. Ended up a pet for one of our handlers. Nice dog, super trainable, no street sense.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I salute your service. My dogs come to work with me too. No one has ever broken in or robbed us with them on the job. Not once!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Again assumptions. I insulted no one, I stated that it is a sport. That it has no bearing on real life work. One of my partners, Billy, was sold to a man I believe Carmen and a few others here know, a Peter something in Edmonton. He was a stellar patrol dog, an absolute dream to work with and a dog I have fond memories of. Apparently his new owner was less then impressed with his trial performance.
> A simply stunning female who showed great promise as a working dog, I think her name was Ilsa, went to either Jan or Peter and was a total washout at trials. Too flat they said. I worked that girl before she left. She was awesome. Took a dog from some lady Jan knew, scored great, no work ability at all. Ended up a pet for one of our handlers. Nice dog, super trainable, no street sense.


 couldn't these cases be just as easily blamed on bad handling/training? A dog with that much drive and potential should have been able to do well in SCH. There is a dog at the club I go to that came from a breeder on here. I have no doubt that dog could have been a police K9 or MWD, instead he is one heck of a SAR dog. He comes out during IPO and does awesome in that also. He doesn't track because of the SAR but OB and protection he is anything but flat.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

On the point of snakes, I'm not sure how dogs are supposed to react. I have learned none of mine give them much notice. After coming across numerous snakes this past summer from garters to rattlers my dogs all shared a similar reaction of "meh" can we just get to the beach already, which is where we are usually heading to play fetch. It seems the lure of playing fetch in the river trumps all else.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> I just recently started doing IPO helper work. I have always heard the same things about the full calm bites being less effective for personal protection or real life scenarios. Never questioned it until just this past weekend. I had the chance to work a very real dog in a controlled protection scenario. Controlled for my safety. There is definitely no issues with this dogs full calm bites. As a matter of fact I guarantee this dog would do more damage and stop any threat quicker than a dog that was all over the place on the bite or shallow. And the dog knew it.


It wasn't Con was it?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Again assumptions. I insulted no one, I stated that it is a sport. That it has no bearing on real life work. One of my partners, Billy, was sold to a man I believe Carmen and a few others here know, a Peter something in Edmonton. He was a stellar patrol dog, an absolute dream to work with and a dog I have fond memories of. Apparently his new owner was less then impressed with his trial performance.
> A simply stunning female who showed great promise as a working dog, I think her name was Ilsa, went to either Jan or Peter and was a total washout at trials. Too flat they said. I worked that girl before she left. She was awesome. Took a dog from some lady Jan knew, scored great, no work ability at all. Ended up a pet for one of our handlers. Nice dog, super trainable, no street sense.


Well I did not perceive any insults?? But as the saying goes LOL, I don't have a dog in this fight. 

And I think I have some idea?? But what do you mean by "No street smarts??? "


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nigel said:


> On the point of snakes, I'm not sure how dogs are supposed to react. I have learned none of mine give them much notice. After coming across numerous snakes this past summer from garters to rattlers my dogs all shared a similar reaction of "meh" can we just get to the beach already, which is where we are usually heading to play fetch. It seems the lure of playing fetch in the river trumps all else.


Fortunately for me and my dogs we have never run across any snakes. But out here every time I tell folks about my Jack Rabbit chasing Boxer's, open desert chases everyone says what about Rattler's?? 

I don't take them up in the rocks and cliffs, we stay on the open flats for the most part. And quad runners and motorcycles cover most of that area on a fairly routine basis. The high grass area is a State Park and my other dogs (Boxer and Band Dawg) would happy go thru that brush and never encountered a Rattler. Only my GSD Rocky would do the "You can go first thing??" Most likely he had more good sense than myself or my other dogs. 

But I don't know maybe with the Rattle and the fangs, my other dogs, would have gotten the "Don't tread on me message???" Still I don't know, a Rattlesnake is smaller than a Real Dog and makes a lot less noise. I just don't have that much faith in a dog's snake instincts?? 

But perhaps GSD's are just all around better at making "Good Choices???" Rocky seemed to be, still my next dog will attend the local "Rattlesnake Avoidance" class, just to be sure.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Fortunately for me and my dogs we have never run across any snakes. But out here every time I tell folks about my Jack Rabbit chasing Boxer's, open desert chases everyone says what about Rattler's??
> 
> I don't take them up in the rocks and cliffs, we stay on the open flats for the most part. And quad runners and motorcycles cover most of that area on a fairly routine basis. The high grass area is a State Park and my other dogs (Boxer and Band Dawg) would happy go thru that brush and never encountered a Rattler. Only my GSD Rocky would do the "You can go first thing??" Most likely he had more good sense than myself or my other dogs.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why my dogs didn't seem interested, up until recently they've seen very few. we even walked over a couple bull snakes laying on the trail. I only realised it after I committed my next step, hard to jump away during mid stride like that, but nothing happened, the snake went on his/her merry way and so did we. I could not figure out how both of us missed that large of a snake. The rattle snakes were not defensive either so that may play into it, they too just slithered away without issue. 

They're not interested in frogs/toads either, maybe it's like Cliff said, some dogs instinctively know that some critters are best left alone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nigel said:


> I'm not sure why my dogs didn't seem interested, up until recently they've seen very few. we even walked over a couple bull snakes laying on the trail. I only realised it after I committed my next step, hard to jump away during mid stride like that, but nothing happened, the snake went on his/her merry way and so did we. I could not figure out how both of us missed that large of a snake. The rattle snakes were not defensive either so that may play into it, they too just slithered away without issue.
> 
> They're not interested in frogs/toads either, maybe it's like Cliff said, some dogs instinctively know that some critters are best left alone.


Uh wow a Rattlesnake also!!! Rattlesnakes are theoretical constructs for me! I have never come across one with my dogs. But driving to his home on one occasion we pulled over and watched while one (rattlesnake) crossed the street. 

It kept an eye us on as it slithered across the street. We kept our distance and just observed, it was not a creature I would chose to screw around with! But some dogs do make poor choices maybe GSD's are just smarter, in the dangerous, creatures I have never seen before area also, I don't know.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I think that survival instincts are not as prevalent in dogs. They've been bred to be almost puppy like compared to their ancestors. Differences Between Wolves and Dogs | Mission: Wolf
However, I'm sure that some dogs still exhibit this behavior. The rattlesnake developed it's rattle as a deterrent just as other animals developed warning signals.
"To say this is over kill would be an understatement. Most dogs, most mammals, have a primal instinct to avoid reptiles. I know that during the past forty years hiking with my dogs, I have never had a single one of my dogs ever go to investigate a snake, and we have come across enough for me to notice their reactions."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nancyt...raining-the-good-bad-and-wrong-of-it-all/amp/
Huskies are known to have survival instinct also: Why is the Siberian Husky Breed unlike any other breed of dog? | YoExpert Q&A


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Interesting topic, I know that rattlesnake avoidance classes are a booming business here in Colorado. But I've been hiking here for 20+ years and NEVER encountered one...

My understanding of the class is that they actually milk live snakes and then let them bite the dogs to teach them strict avoidance...


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## bkealer (Mar 27, 2017)

i never knew these classes were actually a thing until i saw a trainer providing a few sessions on rattlesnake avoidance in the san diego area earlier this week.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

car2ner said:


> I could see my female being happy doing this "living fence" work. She likes to be on the move nearly all day, but she is still very young...just two. My Big Boy (long haired WGSL) at 3 1/2 has learned to conserve energy for when he needs it. He started this when he turned 3. He'll gladly sit in the middle of the yard and keep watch but when the need arises he moves out like he was shot from a cannon. I do admit, though, that he is the one who slows down in the humid days of summer. So I don't know if it is drive so much as being uncomfortably hot some seasons. This is when I am glad he is not so driven that he won't stop to cool down if we are out working in the yard together and I miss signs of struggle.


my GSD mix is like this as well. she's long coated and with age has learned to pace herself when need be. Its odd to watch because at times it has me thinking her drive is flat then other times when she's more engaged I'm like oh there's the dog in her that's so appealing. She will swim till she almost drowns then bring herself to land right before that point, but take something and play fetch a ball or stick or anything and if there is no need to drive hard she may run to it but on recall she will take her dandy time. if other dogs are present she will drive hard to beat them out or wait to intersect them on their recall to take said object but once in her grips she will slow the pace down to preserve herself. 

now shes not cut out for ipo work, at 4 years old ive spent the majority of her life training her to be mellow and sociable, and even the trainer I work with said at this point its not worth seeing what kind of drive we can pull out of her to get her into bite work or jumping objects she may not want to jump but we can still have fun with her. I will say interestingly enough she will become defensive of me, I had a random farm dog growl and take a snap at me as I once tried to remove it from our property and she had no qualms latching onto that dog and having to be pulled off which at the time was shocking as she has always been so passive with other dogs. does that mean she would defend the house if a human came in, I'm not sure. 

I think that all rolls into a dog and handlers bond, a truly capable and driven dog in my opinion should want to protect their handler fearlessly, but its up to the handler to mitigate the risk.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> My understanding of the class is that they actually milk live snakes and then let them bite the dogs to teach them strict avoidance...


NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

Several years ago, I actually owned a trio of venomous snakes that were used for snake bite avoidance classes. 

If any dog trainer were to teach it this method of milking snakes and letting them bite dogs... RUN. Do not walk, but RUN away as fast as possible. Then when at a safe distance pick up the phone and call the ASPCA on their butts for cruelty to both dogs and snakes. 

That is incredibly dangerous. For all parties involved, dog, snake, and people. 

Milking does NOT remove all venom from a snake.

Some training classes may offer classes with what they call a venomoid - a snake with the venom glands removed. Also avoid these people. Very very few veterinarians will perform the cruel surgery of removing venom glands. MANY venomoids are subjeced to back alley anesthesia free surgery by non medically trained snake dealers. At best this is outright cruelty to the snake. At worst the untrained "surgeon" may have left some gland tissue behind and the snake may still be able to produce venom, making the situation dangerous for your dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
> 
> Several years ago, I actually owned a trio of venomous snakes that were used for snake bite avoidance classes.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for the info @voodoolamb I had no idea.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Interesting topic, I know that rattlesnake avoidance classes are a booming business here in Colorado. But I've been hiking here for 20+ years and NEVER encountered one...
> 
> My understanding of the class is that they actually milk live snakes and then let them bite the dogs to teach them strict avoidance...


OK that strikes me as a bit ... insane??? 

As I understand it out here, the class is based on scent. A defanged Rattler is in a cage and the dog is free to investigate and when the dog catches the scent, if he moves in to further investigate, he get's zapped. Then on to the next dog, and repeat as required per dog, seems simple enough?? 

And I have only seen two Rattlers in 60 years. But I know some people "make poor choices" in regards to creatures that could kill them. As a 12 year old out on a hike in the mountains my and my friends saw what I later discovered was a "Diamondback Rattler" going into a burrow?? 

My friend wanted to grab it by the tail, pull it out and stuff it into a milk carton?? I suggested that perhaps that's not a good idea?? And he agreed, so he did not die on that day. I lost track of him over the years. I don't know if he made it to adulthood as he had a habit of not making good choices??


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