# Punishment after the fact? Does the dog understand?



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

This is a spinoff of another thread, but rather than take that thread way off course, I thought I'd just start a new one.

Do you think a dog has a "memory"? Do you think your dog "knows" he did something wrong hours later?

I've always believed a dog has "associations," if he does this or that, he gets this or that, but not a memory as much per se.

I thought this was why people finally abandoned (well, most people) rubbing a dog's nose in their pee hours after the fact. I've never punished for any bad behavior I didn't catch in the act. Do you? (punish after the fact) ? Do you think the dog ties the crime with the punishment?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. A dog associates something within 2-3 seconds. After that you are to late.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

No.

If I had a two year old who spilled juice on the carpet and I only happened to notice it 30 minutes later, I would never drag him over there point at/rub his nose in it/yell "NO BAD CHILD". He would never get the association. (I wouldn't punish him for spilling juice regardless). 

That would be ridiculous. And I feel it's just as ridiculous for a dog to understand the association that I'm trying to convey, long after the incident has passed.


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## 1rockyracoon1 (May 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> No. A dog associates something within 2-3 seconds. After that you are to late.


Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't punish for things after the fact. As far as how much memory they have I know they have some because Sasha definitely knows that men aren't to be trusted (because of her past) and she still believes when she does something "bad" (like throw up on the floor) that she's going to get punished. You can see it in her body language that she believes something bad is about to happen. So they obviously have some associative memory but as punishing them after they've done something bad and you didn't catch it...I don't know, so I don't punish for it.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there


Actually, they're more than likely thinking that you and your friends are total psychos, and punishing a dog for pottying in the house in this manner will cause them to think, "Oh, I can't put it where they'll see it or they'll go insane and stick my face in it." Then they will try and potty out-of-sight, making your job harder. It may work for some dogs, but others will hide their potty spots. 

I feel like dogs are very 'in the moment.' Yeah, they will eventually associate certain things that will rapidly change our mood in a negative way, but for them to associate that the reaction is coming from us due to what they did is unrealistic, IMO. For example. You think the dog is housebroken, so you leave him out. Come home, the house is DESTROYED. Yeah, you're probably going to get mad. Dog associates destroyed house to your anger, not the fact that he destroyed the house. 
Would I punish the dog? No. I'd probably put him in another room while I cleaned up and could calm down, but I wouldn't yell and scream and go nuts.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I don't ever punish my dogs after the fact, if I don't catch them in the act there's nothing I can do about it.

I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there


You can disagree all you want but it's a fact. Look it up.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> .... and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there


But how do you know? How can anyone? I wish dogs could talk.


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## jesetta_1980 (Jun 12, 2011)

It seems to me that Ravyn tells on himself as soon as I walk in the door. I know if he's done something before I see it. He generally doesn't get "punished" for much of anything. I may however scold him once in a while after the fact.


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## 1rockyracoon1 (May 27, 2010)

Konotaski when did i ever say that we stuck there faces in the potty? all i said was that they associate they are suppose to go to the bathroom there and that is it is theirs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Read Temple Grandin's books for a great idea of how the "dog brain" works. 
She proves that they do not "_know_ they did bad". 

"Animals in Translation" - I highly recommend it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> Konotaski when did i ever say that we stuck there faces in the potty? all i said was that they associate they are suppose to go to the bathroom there and that is it is theirs.



If you have a multi- dog home you'll see your theory is wrong.

Because the dogs we have not had since puppies, we can tell which were "nose rubbed" and the like. 
Someone else may have an accident (and with two dogs with spinal damage, it does happen) and the ones who were struck or nose-rubbed will start shaking because _all_ they know is, "there's poop on the floor and when there's poop on the floor, _I_ get in trouble!" 

Therefore they do not "know it is theirs". They are afraid/guilty looking because they associate it with mad humans.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

If you consider a strearn look "punishment" then I say yes. 

All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.

Early in her building our trust to have free roam of the house she made mistakes. Coming home to shredded newspaper or raiding bathroom trash cans for example. Finding the mess she left would prompt a stearn look & as the mess was picked up waived it in front of her so she understood why we are displeased.

When there is no mess she gets happy praises & lots of pets.

She began to know when she has been bad & when shes been good. If she is waiting by the door, tail wagging, she was good. 

Dogs are smarter than most people give credit. They remember despite the belief of "live in the moment".

This method has worked for us because she is 100% reliable, has full run of the house.

Others here that would argue my method have dogs much older still being crated due to their untrustworthiness.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

VomBlack said:


> I don't ever punish my dogs after the fact, if I don't catch them in the act there's nothing I can do about it.
> 
> I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.


Karlo will do similar "give it away" behavior. One of my dogs had diarrhea about a month ago for a couple days(from getting into the cat food) When I'd come home Karlo would jump up on me. He never does this unless he is anxious or stressed. I didn't reprimand any of the dogs for it, they knew I was dissapointed to have to clean that mess up, I'm sure. They do understand more than we give them credit for.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, punishment needs to happen within 2 seconds.

If my dogs act "sorry" it's because they can tell I'm disappointed, not because they know why. If this was a "fact" then why does my dog Pan eat socks or panties any chance he gets, then act "sorry" and then do it again an hour later? Because he has no idea what he's doing is "wrong". 

If I need to stop/prevent something from happening I use management (don't leave socks on the floor, put the dog behind a baby gate, give him something else he can chew on).


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Mayasmom said:


> If you consider a strearn look "punishment" then I say yes.
> 
> All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.
> 
> ...


Most dogs outgrow destruction once they get out of the teething phase. 
Your dogs were reacting to the sound of your voice - they knew you were upset _with them_, but they didn't know _why_.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

VomBlack said:


> ....I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, *instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room*, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.


Well that is interesting. You say he does that before you yourself notice anything, so you're not giving off any "vibes" in that case. So that is kind of an argument "for" the dog "knows he did wrong" side. Is that the *only* instance that he doesn't greet enthusiastically? When he's pulled something out of the sink, etc?

I'm honestly just trying to learn thru this, I find it really interesting.!


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## 1rockyracoon1 (May 27, 2010)

Not saying anyone had to agree with me but we do have a multi dog house and we can tell tell the difference. but thats us. everybody seriously enough with the assumptions when did i ever say we showed anger towards the dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Body language gives you away. Even if you don't think you gave off any signals you were upset, they can tell.
Dogs go by body language, even the slightest change will indicate to them something is different/wrong.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

VomBlack said:


> I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.


I used to have a dog that did this. Storm used to get into the garbage from time to time, and I'd always know when she did it, because she didn't come to greet me at the door... she'd be lying on her bed with a "guilty" expression. Granted, she'd been scolded for getting into the garbage before, so she knew it was supposed to be off-limits. But it seems she should have forgotten all about it by the time I came home, right? It always baffled me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Does this dog look guilty?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL Jane!

I don't think bathroom instances are good proof of this anyway. Dogs don't WANT to poop where they live, eat, and sleep. If they have to because they are sick, old, young, whatever sure they probably look upset at the owner for not giving them a better alternative!


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## 1rockyracoon1 (May 27, 2010)

I know body language is an important role i get that and know that all i am trying to say is that i think dogs associate longer than 2-3 seconds. How am i any different than most people on here. you cant say that if your dog s*&^t on the floor you would be happy about it and maybe in body langauge show some kind of being upset. Okay whatever. maybe I do have body language of being upset but i dont yell or hit my dog, just to make that clear. But I guess since I disagree with one of the regular posters that means I am a bad owner and also that I dont know anything so.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> *But I guess since I disagree with one of the regular posters *that means I am a bad owner and also that I dont know anything so.


Are you referring to ME? :rofl: That's funny.

It's not the first time someone disagreed with me and won't be the last

...doesn't make you a bad owner. 

However, in this case, it's not me you are disagreeing with...it is studies that show dogs associate things within 2-3 seconds. LOOK IT UP>>>>>


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I used to have a dog that did this. Storm used to get into the garbage from time to time, and I'd always know when she did it, because she didn't come to greet me at the door... she'd be lying on her bed with a "guilty" expression. Granted, she'd been scolded for getting into the garbage before, so she knew it was supposed to be off-limits. But it seems she should have forgotten all about it by the time I came home, right? It always baffled me.


This was one example in Temple's books.

There was a dog who would regularly get into the trash. Owner comes home, they are upset of course, and they said "the dog KNOWS it was bad, because she looks guilty!" 

However, one day the people doing the study went into the home, strewed about the garbage, the dog didn't do it, had nothing to do with it.

So the owner comes home and the dog is standing there looking all guilty.

In the dog's mind, and this is how dogs reason... "trash on the floor = mama/daddy are mad". 

It didn't think to itself, "oh no, mama is home and _I_ made a mess on the floor". 

Honestly, if you've never read Temple's books, they are excellent.
One reason people want to ascribe human emotions, etc. to dogs is that dogs brains are quite similar to ours. 
Dogs get up, yawn, stretch, etc. just like us when we get up.
They get upset, or "feel sad" when we do. 
ETC. 
We want to see them as having very human emotions and reactions like we do since they live here with us.

And to an extent, they do but then again, nothing like what we do, and her books help explain all of that.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Read Temple Grandin's books for a great idea of how the "dog brain" works.
> She proves that they do not "_know_ they did bad".
> 
> "Animals in Translation" - I highly recommend it.


You sure she wasnt talking about cows? Wasnt that her expertise?


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I believe we underestimate the memory of dogs. My dog has extraordinary memory of where he last saw a squirrel or rabbit or where he stashed a toy/bone among other things. I think that the reason not to punish after the fact is that the dog may not be able to make an association between the _specific activity_ he/she is being reprimanded for and the reprimand if there is a long delay between the two. With that said, I am happy to say that I don't really have to worry about that as my dog is not destructive in the house and I have no worries leaving him un-crated.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Seriously?? Did you read the books!??

If not you might want to check them out. 




Mayasmom said:


> You sure she wasnt talking about cows? Wasnt that her expertise?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> I know body language is an important role i get that and know that all i am trying to say is that i think dogs associate longer than 2-3 seconds. How am i any different than most people on here. *you cant say that if your dog s*&^t on the floor you would be happy about it and maybe in body langauge show some kind of being upset*. Okay whatever. maybe I do have body language of being upset but i dont yell or hit my dog, just to make that clear. But I guess since I disagree with one of the regular posters that means I am a bad owner and also that I dont know anything so.


The bolded is the point really. Ie, is the dog truly understanding of his "offense" or only responding to the body language.

As I read this thread, I'm thinking that there may be more to a dog's ability to "remember" or "know" he's done something wrong than I previously believed. At the same time, I think far too many owners just automatically believe the dog feels "guilty" without the awareness of just how their body language is influencing the reaction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> You sure she wasnt talking about cows? Wasnt that her expertise?


Her expertise is far beyond cows. That's just what the movie showed.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LifeofRiley said:


> ....I think that the reason not to punish after the fact is that the dog may not be able to make an association between the _specific activity_ he/she is being reprimanded for and the reprimand if there is a long delay between the two....


Agreed.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

I would never rub my dogs face in their mess after the fact. I don't feel that teaches them anything. But as I have I said in previous posts on another thread, I do think that she knows when she's done wrong - beyond 2 or 3 seconds after the fact. Her behaviour changes and she acts sheepish. (Not to harp on about this, but what dog brings you toilet roll to clean up her mess?? I thought it was funny once off when it happened the first time. But she's done it several times since then. If she approaches me with her "I'm sorry" face on, and the loo roll in her mouth, I have to do a run through of the rooms she's been in to see where she made a mess. I mean, what dog does that that only has an association of wrongdoing for 2-3 seconds?) 

Anyway, I don't know why she gives herself away, as I haven't ever scolded her for former accidents or anything else, so she hasn't got reason to react out of a negative experience. But this is honestly what she does. I for one find it amusing and educational! Some dogs are smarter than we give them credit for.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah. See, I have no HBO (heard about an HBO movie). I did read the books and learned a ton about animal behavior...not specific to cows


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Question....why does a dog acting sheepish indicate it knows it did something wrong? If my dog does something wrong and I correct it that moment, he gets the message but doesn't act sheepish. In fact I do all I can to avoid my dog acting sheepish. I don't want my corrections to cause cowering and avoidance.


Another thought....thinking about this from a dog's point of view...I'd act pretty sheepish too if I had to go REALLY bad but there were no toilets available and I had to wet myself. Doesn't mean I'd think I was bad or feel sorry about since it wasn't my fault...


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> Most dogs outgrow destruction once they get out of the teething phase.
> Your dogs were reacting to the sound of your voice - they knew you were upset _with them_, but they didn't know _why_.


Why the need to change my words around? How do u translate a stearn look to "the sound of your voice"?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rua said:


> I would never rub my dogs face in their mess after the fact. I don't feel that teaches them anything. But as I have I said in previous posts on another thread, I do think that she knows when she's done wrong - beyond 2 or 3 seconds after the fact. Her behaviour changes and she acts sheepish. (Not to harp on about this, but what dog brings you toilet roll to clean up her mess?? I thought it was funny once off when it happened the first time. But she's done it several times since then. If she approaches me with her "I'm sorry" face on, and the loo roll in her mouth, I have to do a run through of the rooms she's been in to see where she made a mess. I mean, what dog does that that only has an association of wrongdoing for 2-3 seconds?)
> 
> Anyway, I don't know why she gives herself away, as I haven't ever scolded her for former accidents or anything else, so she hasn't got reason to react out of a negative experience. But this is honestly what she does. I for one find it amusing and educational! Some dogs are smarter than we give them credit for.



ok...here's an example...DD leaves her stuff everywhere...wherever she's standing she drops it. I come through the house, trip over the bookbag and swear because my toe now hurts and a teenager can't figure out to pick up after herself. Jax drops her head like I"ve yelled at her. NO association to her at all but she is so sensitive to my actions that she looks 'guilty'.

My sister has a lab puppy about 8 months old. She does not punish after the fact but will have a reaction to it. So he goes on the floor. She comes home and says "G dam it" in an aggravated tone and he heads for cover. NOW, she can whisper those words at random times and he heads for cover. She's never harmed him at all. 

But both dogs are sensitive to OUR moods and body language whether it is related to them or not.

It has nothing to do with what they have done. It US.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

chelle said:


> As I read this thread, I'm thinking that there may be more to a dog's ability to "remember" or "know" he's done something wrong than I previously believed. At the same time, I think far too many owners just automatically believe the dog feels "guilty" without the awareness of just how their body language is influencing the reaction.


I do agree with this. I think if you go into the room raging for whatever reason, the dog will act accordingly. But in my experience, my dogs have acted sheepish WITHOUT me acting angry at them. The most I've done is said, "What are you doin?" in my firmer voice when I know she's been naughty - the same voice tone as I would use for "Sit", "Come" or any other command), and she reacts with guilt - which is NOT how she reacts when I give her a normal command.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

chelle said:


> Well that is interesting. You say he does that before you yourself notice anything, so you're not giving off any "vibes" in that case. So that is kind of an argument "for" the dog "knows he did wrong" side. Is that the *only* instance that he doesn't greet enthusiastically? When he's pulled something out of the sink, etc?
> 
> I'm honestly just trying to learn thru this, I find it really interesting.!


Yeah, i'm literally just walking into the door and have yet to notice anything, so when he turns around and leaves before getting all excited then I take a look around to see what he's acting strange over. Otherwise whenever I come home he's usually circling me and whining, jumping up, etc. I honestly can't think of another instance where he does it, it's interesting though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What Really Prompts The Dog's 'Guilty Look'


Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump science.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> However, one day the people doing the study went into the home, strewed about the garbage, the dog didn't do it, had nothing to do with it.
> 
> So the owner comes home and the dog is standing there looking all guilty.
> 
> ...


Actually I have read her books. Garbage strewn on floor = mom mad. I get that, but I'd have thought my dog should have forgotten all about there being garbage on the floor by the time I got home. The kitchen was on the opposite end of the house from the entry, so it's not like the dog was in the same room with the garbage. 

I can imagine the progression of events: mom leaves. Dog gets into garbage. Dog is done with garbage and goes into the front room to take a nap. Mom enters front room hours later. 

What is the dog thinking? "Uh oh, there's garbage strewn around in the kitchen and mom's gonna be mad" ?

Somehow I don't think a dog's memory works like that... but I could be wrong!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When my dogs make a mess they greet me with their tongues lolling and tails wagging like they can't WAIT to show me their latest art project!


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Liesje said:


> What Really Prompts The Dog's 'Guilty Look'
> 
> 
> Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump science.


The dogs didnt know from previous experience the treats were "forbidden". This is so setting the dog up for failure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly. The same could be said about counter surfing, raiding the trash, ripping the sofa, eating a sock...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> When my dogs make a mess they greet me with their tongues lolling and tails wagging like they can't WAIT to show me their latest art project!


Haha  I've not experienced the "guilty" look myself, more like what you describe. Look mom! I can make a big mess!! 

When dog #1 was young, she had a thing with toilet paper and leather items. When I was home, I'd leave her access to those things to correct her. She figured that out very fast and wouldn't touch those things in our presence. But if we left, and someone was dumb enough to leave their leather belt within reach, it received some extra belt holes. If someone left the bathroom door open, I'd often come home to shredded toilet paper. (and naturally the same doofus that couldn't manage to close the bathroom door also hadn't been able to manage to put the roll ON the holder, so the dog would get an entire new roll to violate.)

Dog #2 enjoyed finding one tiny small part of a throw/kitchen rug that was unravelling and help it unravel the rest of the way. Hence I learned to cut off those little pieces and that behavior stopped.

Dog #3 is the angel of the bunch and has had two incidents of carpet digging in the same spot. 

Sooo sorry to ramble, but I've come home to shredded toilet paper (fun to clean up!), throw rugs unravelled and some extra bite marks in leather items and not once did I get the "guilty" look from the guilty party . They never were punished for their misdeeds (after teh fact)... but the human that couldn't close the bathroom door heard about it. 

Whew, I'm glad those days of tp shredding are over. That really sucked.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Without reprimand (stearn look) they dont know what they did. You cant teach a dog if it doesnt know what it did wrong. This is setting them up for failure!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Never have. Never would.



Mayasmom said:


> Without reprimand (stearn look) they dont know what they did. You cant teach a dog if it doesnt know what it did wrong. This is setting them up for failure!


So set them up for success and don't allow them to be alone for long periods of time before they're ready. They're ready when they're mature enough to handle it.

Scolding after the fact does absolutely nothing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is failure on the part of humans - why punish the dog?
If you leave a puppy loose in a room full of things it likes to chew on, how is that the puppy's fault?
Or go away for hours on end and never think the puppy may need to go out potty so it potties on your rug?
How is that the dog's fault, for needing to relieve itself?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Who voted yes? There is one vote for yes....


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I did have a dog once, a pit/shepherd mix that understood after the fact.
Two true stories:
Example 1: this happened often- I would leave him in the house when I went to work. He would inevitably get into the trash for a meat wrapper (took the plastic lid off the can) and as he drug the wrapper into the living room, the coffee filter on top of said meat wrapper would drag used coffee grounds in a trail from garbage can to spot used to lick/shred wrapper. Upon my arrival home, I would see the trail of coffee grounds, put hand on hip, tap foot and give him the look. He would go from his smiling happy self, to the crossed paws with head buried but peeking out. Every time. 

Example 2: One time and one time only, when he was about a year old, he chewed a itty bitty hole in a pair of shoes of mine, by the pinkie toe. It had to be quite awhile before I found it-rarely wore the shoes. Barely noticeable. Dog was in sons bedroom with son & friend. I hid shoe behind my back, opened sons door. Dog starts to clamber off the bed excited to get out of there. I show him the shoe. He crawled backwards back up on the bed and hid behind son. 

Both cases not a word was ever spoken.

On the other hand housebreaking the same dog was almost impossible and he was about dumb as a box of rocks in all other things. Never could teach him any recall, never could teach him fetch. He would 'whisper' rather than speak though. 

Loved that dog!!

PS...I did not vote


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> Without reprimand (stearn look) they dont know what they did. You cant teach a dog if it doesnt know what it did wrong. This is setting them up for failure!


But this insinuates the "stern look" _ensures_ they know what they did. How can you truly be so sure?

Agreed, you can't teach if it doesn't know it is wrong, but what better way, what _foolproof_ way is there, other than to catch it in the act? Anything other than catching in action seems like a crapshoot. You might be right, but what if you're wrong? Then you're just confusing the dog.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I find it pointless to punish them after the fact, but I don't think they completley forget they did something naughty. 

SEVERAL times I have walked into a room and the dogs did a "naughty" and you can instantly tell which one did it, before I "ask them" lol! We have left our lab out of his crate when we have left the house. We ring the doorbell to get him excited when we come home, and the times he doesn't run to the door barking are the times he has scattered the trash, chewed, or peed on the floor! So I know that _he_ knows he did something wrong, and I also know it was more than 2-3 seconds before that he did it.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> It is failure on the part of humans - why punish the dog?
> If you leave a puppy loose in a room full of things it likes to chew on, how is that the puppy's fault?
> Or go away for hours on end and never think the puppy may need to go out potty so it potties on your rug?
> How is that the dog's fault, for needing to relieve itself?


Now you are being just downright ridiculous! Do all 5 of your dogs have free roam if your house while your gone, without getting into mischief? My dogs do, so if my method is so wrong, then explain to me how that is possible?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> Now you are being just downright ridiculous! Do all 5 of your dogs have free roam if your house while your gone, without getting into mischief? My dogs do, so if my method is so wrong, then explain to me how that is possible?


With all due respect and correct me if I'm wrong, but your "method" is a stern look and you're saying that simply by giving these dogs a stern look, they cease to do anything destructive? All because of a "look" ?

I'm only up to two dogs who don't do anything wrong and are loose together. Five? Yikes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mayasmom said:


> Without reprimand (stearn look) they dont know what they did. You cant teach a dog if it doesnt know what it did wrong. This is setting them up for failure!


Exactly, you can't walk in the door 6 hours after the fact and start scolding a dog, it has no idea what you are talking about. Either show the dog in the moment that he is wrong, or prevent the dog from doing something wrong while you are not there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> It is failure on the part of humans - why punish the dog?
> If you leave a puppy loose in a room full of things it likes to chew on, how is that the puppy's fault?
> Or go away for hours on end and never think the puppy may need to go out potty so it potties on your rug?
> How is that the dog's fault, for needing to relieve itself?





Mayasmom said:


> Now you are being just downright ridiculous! Do all 5 of your dogs have free roam if your house while your gone, without getting into mischief? My dogs do, so if my method is so wrong, then explain to me how that is possible?


I rarely agree with msvette2u but how is she being ridiculous?

If you leave an untrained puppy in a room full of things to chew unattended...how is that the fault of the puppy?

If we leave our CRF dog alone to long and she has to pee and goes on the floor, who is that her fault?

Why would that be ridiculous to NOT blame the dog when it's the person's fault?


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

chelle said:


> But this insinuates the "stern look" you might be right, but what if you're wrong? Then you're just confusing the dog.[/QUOTe
> 
> She can be trusted 100% in the house alone...that is my proof. She hasnt been crated in over a year & we kept her crate around for a long time just cuz she liked being in it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I think the results of the poll pretty much speak for themself...


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I rarely agree with msvette2u but how is she being ridiculous?
> 
> If you leave an untrained puppy in a room full of things to chew unattended...how is that the fault of the puppy?
> 
> ...


Im not even talking about an untrained puppy! Thats why her comment is so ridiculous.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I think it is possible that once a dog has learned that, for example, chewing on a shoe is not acceptable, they can remember they did that while you were away and display avoidance/appeasement signals when you return. But, I think they learn that association from repeatedly being caught in the act trying to get to said item and being corrected for it while you are there watching not through a reprimand after the fact. However, once it is a learned association, I do not believe they "forget" they did something and may possibly know to offer those appeasement signals. Again, in my case, my rescue was safe to leave out to roam in the house after only a few days - and after only one shoe incident - so I don't know.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> I think the results of the poll pretty much speak for themself...


Different strokes for different folks. 

According to the poll, the dog is punished. So a stearn look is interpretted as a punishment? My teenage daughter would b thrilled!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mayasmom said:


> Im not even talking about an untrained puppy! Thats why her comment is so ridiculous.


I'm giving _examples_, Mayasmom.
Most "training failures" are the fault of the human so why even "stern looks"?
If you leave your dog out and she chews up something (it could happen, even to your dog...for instance if you left food in an accessible area and she smelled it while you were away, and ate it, destroying what it was near in the process) how is that then her fault? Would it not be yours for leaving her out loose wandering around?

Or if you forgot to potty her and despite her waiting and waiting, you were late home and she had an accident? Whose fault is that?

That's what I'm saying - training failures (from puppyhood to adulthood) are usually human failures so why punish the pet??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs remember things, how else do they learn? 
If you set your dog up for success, there is no reason to punish.
Accidents on the floor with a housebroken dog is usually medically related.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

In this discussion, people need to make a distinction between "memory" and "association".

The dog has a long memory, but timing is what sets up an association between an action and reward or punishment. That is why clicker/marker training works nicely, it allows you a bigger window between the dog's action & reward allowing for that association.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JanaeUlva said:


> In this discussion, people need to make a distinction between "memory" and "association".
> 
> The dog has a long memory, but timing is what sets up an association between an action and reward or punishment. That is why clicker/marker training works nicely, it allows you a bigger window between the dog's action & reward allowing for that association.


I was just thinking of that myself...not sure how to word it, so thank you 

How would you relate that to housetraining or chewing incidents, btw? For instance, a dog chewed up a shoe while you were away and you got home 4hrs. later and scolded the dog. 
Can you explain how association would relate?


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

You are very welcome. Hopefully i post fast enough so you make the association between your Thank You and my Your Welcome.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

JanaeUlva said:


> In this discussion, people need to make a distinction between "memory" and "association".
> 
> The dog has a long memory, but timing is what sets up an association between an action and reward or punishment. That is why clicker/marker training works nicely, it allows you a bigger window between the dog's action & reward allowing for that association.


I agree... that is the point I was trying to make in my last post.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Msvette2u, do your dogs have free roam of your house when u are gone? 

Or are they sentenced to life in a crate because u feel, being gone & unable to catch them in the act is setting them up for failure?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mayasmom said:


> All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.
> 
> Early in her building our trust to have free roam of the house she made mistakes. Coming home to shredded newspaper or raiding bathroom trash cans for example. Finding the mess she left would prompt a stearn look & as the mess was picked up waived it in front of her so she understood why we are displeased.


I have an experiment for you to try. One day, shred up some newspaper or take some stuff out of the bathroom trash can. Toss it on the floor in sight of your dog, and then give her a stern look. Do exactly what you would do, act exactly how you would act, say exactly what you would say if your dog had shredded the paper or taken stuff out of the garbage instead of you. Tell us how she reacts.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Memory and association fall hand in hand.

Example on training e-fence boundary: When you train e-fence it usually starts with white flags on the property border teaching the dog that they should not go near it...the beep of the electric collar when they get close/ before the shock if they are too close. The dog associates the white flag/beep to shock. They remember the shock so steer clear of the flag, trained on the beep, fading the flag.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I have an experiment for you to try. One day, shred up some newspaper or take some stuff out of the bathroom trash can. Toss it on the floor in sight of your dog, and then give her a stern look. Do exactly what you would do, act exactly how you would act, say exactly what you would say if your dog had shredded the paper or taken stuff out of the garbage instead of you. Tell us how she reacts.


How do you think she would react?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mayasmom said:


> Msvette2u, do your dogs have free roam of your house when u are gone?
> 
> Or are they sentenced to life in a crate because u feel, being gone & unable to catch them in the act is setting them up for failure?


You really have no idea of our situation here, and "sentenced to life in a crate" doesn't apply to us.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mayasmom said:


> How do you think she would react?


How do YOU think she would react?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think you ought to do it and video tape the results


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> She can be trusted 100% in the house alone...that is my proof. She hasnt been crated in over a year & we kept her crate around for a long time just cuz she liked being in it.


Not to argue into the ground, but I have a couple dogs who've been incident free for many years, yet never received punishment after the fact. So the thing is, if you hadn't bothered with stern looks or showing the chewed up item, etc, and just depended on training (when you're there) and management (when you're not), would the dog still be the same 100% dependable dog? I think it probably would.

Now, granted, I'll bet the look on my face wasn't "friendly" when I came home to some of those toilet paper decorations, but I grumbled under my breath and never approached the dog, just cleaned it up. Yet my body language, even subconsciously, probably spoke volumes to the dog. Probably to both of them, even the non-offender. 



JanaeUlva said:


> In this discussion, people need to make a distinction between "memory" and "association".
> 
> The dog has a long memory, but timing is what sets up an association between an action and reward or punishment. That is why clicker/marker training works nicely, it allows you a bigger window between the dog's action & reward allowing for that association.


This is key and really even the heart of the matter. What is memory and what is association.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You really have no idea of our situation here, and "sentenced to life in a crate" doesn't apply to us.


I take that as a NO!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> I take that as a NO!


Why are you being so nasty? The one thing everyone can agree on is nobody lives or trains the same way. So what is up with your personal attacks?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

How about...we have a rescue and yes dogs are crated while we are gone, not everyone but some, yes, because of safety issues. 
That is not "sentenced to life in a crate", as you so eloquently put it. That is good management.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Why are you being so nasty? The one thing everyone can agree on is nobody lives or trains the same way. So what is up with your personal attacks?


Curious about this as well. Your posts have been extremely defensive since the topic started.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Besides "memory", "association", "timing" humans also have to remember that a dog is far more keyed into body language expressing our emotions. So they get it when we are unhappy with something but without timing we have very little clue what they are associating as the cause of our unhappiness. 

And let's not forget "Superstitious Behavior" - 
Inadvertently reinforcing an incidental behavior that you don't want so it becomes fixed in the dogs mind as necessary to gain the reward or avoid punishment. This can occur when there is a misunderstanding in how your dog is making associations; it's an *accidental correlation*. Superstitious behavior often happens when reinforcement for the wanted behavior occurs close together in time with an incidental (unwanted) behavior. Therefore, the incidental behavior is accidentally reinforced. *Punishment, pain or fear can create superstitious behavior too.*


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Mayasmom said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> According to the poll, the dog is punished. So a stearn look is interpretted as a punishment? My teenage daughter would b thrilled!


I interpreted "punishment" in the subject of the poll as any kind of correction... a stearn look applies as a correction. That's my take at least.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Why are you being so nasty? The one thing everyone can agree on is nobody lives or trains the same way. So what is up with your personal attacks?


No personal attack, just trying to establish that she has no tried & true method of her own she's criticizing me & my method & she has no method of her own. Why do I even read her stuff?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah yes, Temple Grandin speaks to this as well


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mayasmom said:


> Why do I even read her stuff?


Because she knows what she's talking about.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mayasmom said:


> No personal attack, just trying to establish that she has no tried & true method of her own she's criticizing me & my method & she has no method of her own. Why do I even read her stuff?


"No tried and true method of her own"?
How do you know that? I have my own method of raising puppies and taking care of dogs. There are currently 12 dogs in my care and none are fighting or destroying things. None are pooping on the floor (except a senior who cannot be let out and she has a carpet of potty pads to "go" on). I don't leave them all out together because of safety issues and a new dog to my home cannot be treated like a dog who has lived here it's whole life. 

And "criticizing [you]"? I did nothing of the sort. 
I asked a general question and you took offense. Others offended you more along the way, if you go back and read.

So you can stop with the personal attacks, thank you.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Because she knows what she's talking about.


Obviously no so much...Im done...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> .... Or are they* sentenced to life* in a crate because u feel, being gone & unable to catch them in the act is setting them up for failure?


This does come off as offensive to those who use crating. None of mine are "sentenced to life" in a crate. They are trained with one when little. As they grow up and show they can be trusted outside of one, it becomes optional to them. 

I do feel I'm setting them up for failure if they're out of the crate too soon, chew something up and I'm not there to correct it. In my mind, they "got away with it" and I'm one peg down.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I voted "no",,my dogs aren't destructive and really don't get into 'trouble' when I'm not around, atleast I've never come home to any destruction..

I like the 'experiment' I can tell you what my dogs would do (and actually how would you know WHO was the culprit if ya have multiple dogs loose in the house?)

If I came home or even did that experiment, and said "WHO DID THIS?" with my stern voice, evil eye..I can tell ya my dogs would most likely say "UH OH Mom's PEEVED, I'm outta here" (Masi most likely would just jump all over me tail wagging) the aussies would disappear..

Now if I did the same thing, and did my matthew margolis voice, HAPPY DOG HAPPY DOG I DON"T CARE IF YOU CHEWED UP MY SOFA!! HAPPY DOG...they'd ALL be happy bouncy "we didn't do it, but darn wish we did cause mom is HAPPY!!".

So yes, I think alot has to do with body language, what we are projecting.

I am certainly not saying dogs don't have muscle memory,,it's sooo obvious dogs DO remember..I just think associating stuff like this, is also how we project.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Didn't read the the thread yet and this may have been addressed...



chelle said:


> Do you think a dog has a "memory"? Do you think your dog "knows" he did something wrong hours later?
> 
> I've always believed a dog has "associations," if he does this or that, he gets this or that, but not a memory as much per se.


Dogs have associative memory!  They remember things forever but they only associate things (such as reward or correction) with an event within 2-3 seconds of that event happening.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and as for the crating comment,,YES my 11 yr old aussie has been banished to a crate his entire life when I am not home,,WHY? he starts "poop" with the girls and I don't want to come home to an injured dog. Is it my lack of leadership? I doubt it, he knows I don't put up with his "poop", he's just a "poop starter" and like I said, I don'twant to come to blood on my floors

What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another..


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JanaeUlva said:


> In this discussion, people need to make a distinction between "memory" and "association".
> 
> The dog has a long memory, but timing is what sets up an association between an action and reward or punishment. That is why clicker/marker training works nicely, it allows you a bigger window between the dog's action & reward allowing for that association.





JanaeUlva said:


> Besides "memory", "association", "timing" humans also have to remember that a dog is far more keyed into body language expressing our emotions. So they get it when we are unhappy with something but without timing we have very little clue what they are associating as the cause of our unhappiness.
> 
> And let's not forget "Superstitious Behavior" -
> Inadvertently reinforcing an incidental behavior that you don't want so it becomes fixed in the dogs mind as necessary to gain the reward or avoid punishment. This can occur when there is a misunderstanding in how your dog is making associations; it's an *accidental correlation*. Superstitious behavior often happens when reinforcement for the wanted behavior occurs close together in time with an incidental (unwanted) behavior. Therefore, the incidental behavior is accidentally reinforced. *Punishment, pain or fear can create superstitious behavior too.*


 
:thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Again, going for Miss Unpopular 2012 Award. 

First of all dogs are dogs, not people. If a person, even a child poops on the floor, there is a good chance that what they are doing is a serious behavioral problem. But it is natural for a dog to poop on the floor. It is not natural for him to poop where he eats or sleeps, unless he has been forced to live in a confined area where he had to poop where he eats and sleeps.

But pooping/urinating for a dog is not a behavioral issue in a natural sense. It is we the humans that are offended by the presence of urine or feces. Can we train a dog NOT to poop and pee in the house? Certainly. And once house trained, they will only have a problem if there is a medical reason, or we the human left them way too long, so that there was no possibility for success. In either of these cases, why should we punish a dog, even with just a stern look?

To be fair, we are training a dog to NOT do something natural, to actually do something unnatural. Isn't it a double whammy if we punish them for not getting it? Wouldn't it make more sense, to praise and condition them to use a specific spot (outside), so instead of training them where not to do their business, we train them where to do their business. And then we manage them until we are confident that they have it down. And deviations to that are do to problems the dog cannot manage. 

So, I guess I believe it unfair to punish a dog for pottying. 

Chewing is similar. Why does the dog chew something of yours while you are not there? Maybe because the dog is teething. Maybe because he was working on his bone, and the table leg was near the bone and he started working on the table leg. He is chewing to chew, not to tick you off. If it is a personal item, it may be that he is chewing your personal item because he associates it with you, and he is missing you. I have dogs that will take a stuffed bear off my desk and go and lay with it. They do not chew it, they just lay with it. Weird. 

I guess with chewing, or stealing from trash, counters, etc. I guess I look at any deviations to what is acceptable as more of a mistake on my part, for leaving access to a dog who is not fully trustworthy yet. So why would I punish the dog. 

Actually, I find that the more I live with dogs, the more I realize that there are really very few instances to warrant any punishment. Perhaps that is because I see dogs as being animals, and not being bad. I think dogs are extremely intelligent. I believe they can learn all kinds of things. I see failure to do what we want them to do is a failure on the part of the trainer much moreso than on the part of the trainee. 

Lastly, if you are housetraining a puppy, the most effective method is to use a rolled up newspaper. First put the puppy in a safe place, In the other room roll up a newspaper good and tight, hold it high above your head and give 2-3 sharp whacks, repeating each time, "I WILL watch my puppy!"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Actually, I find that the more I live with dogs, the more I realize that there are really very few instances to warrant any punishment. Perhaps that is because I see dogs as being animals, and not being bad. I think dogs are extremely intelligent. I believe they can learn all kinds of things. I see failure to do what we want them to do is a failure on the part of the trainer much moreso than on the part of the trainee.


I love you. I want you to adopt all our dogs


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> Again, going for Miss Unpopular 2012 Award.


:rofl: Heck, no. Great post.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I've read that dogs can probably associate a punishment/negative reinforcer up to a minute "after the fact."

That said, I try not to use any sort of aversive, verbal or otherwise, unless I actually saw it happen and I can use it within just a couple seconds after the act. Sometimes I still ignore it. It's best to catch them in the act or while they are still thinking about it.

I've certainly never punished him or scolded him for accidents. That's 100% the human's fault, unless there's a medical problem going on. I just ignore it, don't make any big deal out of it, clean it up, and go about my day.

ETA: And my dog LOOOVES his crate. I leave the door open and he goes in there to nap of his own volition. I keep a blanket over the top (it is a metal wire crate) so it feels more like a den to him. He was crate trained as a puppy. I can't ever imagine raising a puppy without a crate. Made things so wonderful.

If you have a dog who hates his/her crate, chances are you did something wrong. Note, I said chances, there may be temperamental issues or the dog might have an abusive/neglected history that causes them to hate a crate.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I punish my dogs very very very very rarely. Kopper was having a problem with dog reactivity/aggression. Punishment was swift and sure and we haven't had another issue. Other than that I can't remember the last time I punished. I'll correct for pulling on the leash with a leash pop. I correct for sniffing too close to the dinner table with an "eeggggh." But I almost never punish. 

Kopper has a habit, if I'm gone for more than 5 or 6 hours, of going into my weight room and picking out the stinkiest item that smells like my sweat, bringing it back into the family room, and chewing on it. He's not doing this to be "bad" or vindictive or to punish me for being gone. The fact that he chooses something that smells richly of my sweat shows that he's doing it because he's anxious about me being gone so long and wants my smell in his nostrils. The fact that he has the opportunity means that I was stupid for leaving the weight room door open. What is there to punish?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I saw this great video a while ago that was supposed to show that the look people think of as "guilty" in dogs doesn't really mean what people think it means. It showed a person tossing garbage around the room and then letting a dog in the room and saying things like "oh look at this mess! Who did this?" and things like that. The dog acted "guilty" even though they had done nothing wrong. 
I think if a dog makes a mess and then acts guilty when you come home hours later, most likely they don't actually connect the act of making the mess with the punishment at all. If they act guilty it's probably because they know that a mess on the floor plus you coming home equals punishment, or a raised voice in frustration or whatever. Not actually connecting it to something that they did "wrong".

Bianca will act upset (including some of the behaviors people call "guilty" when dogs do them) if I even say "Hey! Stop it!" to the cats because they are playing too rough and I'm not even talking to her and don't use that for her anyway...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Dogs are so in tune to our body language that I brought in a dog food ball with a pill in it for our senior foster, Holly Bear, and Tristan (my Dachshund) saw how I was carrying it...kind of with my hand curled under so he wouldn't see it and think he was missing a treat. I didn't think I was doing anything different than walking through the gate, but he noticed immediately and perked all up. 
It's amazing how they go off of the slightest things, changes in us, or even smells, and react immediately.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I think too that "punishment" is kind of subjective. Is a "ERRRR" a punishment? I don't see it as that. (Insert whatever wierd vocal thing you do) I see that as more of a redirection. A warning. Attention getter. I've found it to be extremely effective when delivered at just the precise moment they're doing.. whatever you don't want.

On the other hand, I did deliver a punishment recently. Bailey was getting really snarky with my oldest, who did nothing wrong. I did grab him by the scruff and my voice was deep and firm. (As a sidenote, he has not bothered this dog since that incident.)

What qualifies as memory vs assocation? My youngest knows which tree the most squirrels are running around. When it is dinnertime, my oldest knows to go to the door of the room where she's fed. When I say "bedtime," they ALL know what that means. 

These dogs are probably smarter than we are.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> I saw this great video a while ago that was supposed to show that the look people think of as "guilty" in dogs doesn't really mean what people think it means. It showed a person tossing garbage around the room and then letting a dog in the room and saying things like "oh look at this mess! Who did this?" and things like that. The dog acted "guilty" even though they had done nothing wrong.
> I think if a dog makes a mess and then acts guilty when you come home hours later, most likely they don't actually connect the act of making the mess with the punishment at all. If they act guilty it's probably because they know that a mess on the floor plus you coming home equals punishment, or a raised voice in frustration or whatever. Not actually connecting it to something that they did "wrong".
> 
> Bianca will act upset (including some of the behaviors people call "guilty" when dogs do them) if I even say "Hey! Stop it!" to the cats because they are playing too rough and I'm not even talking to her and don't use that for her anyway...


 
I saw that same experiment. Very interesting. I do not "punish" or acknowledge anything if I don't catch them in the act.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm not even voting in this poll and this is the last thing I am saying on this matter. I never said that I punish my dogs. I said I correct them. I never said that I rub my dogs nose in their accidents. In fact, I wasn't talking about potty training, I was talking about teaching a dog not to destroy your home. If your dog isn't even potty trained, you shouldn't be leaving him/her alone at all. And finally, I never said that I CORRECT my dogs hours after they chew something up. I'm 100% positive that I said that I leave for 20 minutes and correct them when I return. Dogs do have a memory. I had a dog who was beaten with a belt in their last home and any time anyone took of their belt she cringed. This is using memory. When you teach your dog a trick, they are using memory. I do believe dogs live in the moment, to an extent, but not as fully as some of you people are saying. I'm not saying my way is the only correct way to teach a dog to behave alone in a home, but I am saying that my way has worked for all of my dogs. One dog took longer to learn, but it eventually works for me.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm guilty of yelling out "oooohhhhhh" when I come home and something is different. Sometimes I will ask them "who did this" ....none of them run and hide though. They all sit and want to shake my hand

I don't think it does any good to punish after the fact.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

vicky2200 said:


> I'm not even voting in this poll and this is the last thing I am saying on this matter. I never said that I punish my dogs. I said I correct them. I never said that I rub my dogs nose in their accidents. In fact, I wasn't talking about potty training, I was talking about teaching a dog not to destroy your home. If your dog isn't even potty trained, you shouldn't be leaving him/her alone at all. And finally, I never said that I CORRECT my dogs hours after they chew something up. I'm 100% positive that I said that I leave for 20 minutes and correct them when I return. Dogs do have a memory. I had a dog who was beaten with a belt in their last home and any time anyone took of their belt she cringed. This is using memory. When you teach your dog a trick, they are using memory. I do believe dogs live in the moment, to an extent, but not as fully as some of you people are saying. I'm not saying my way is the only correct way to teach a dog to behave alone in a home, but I am saying that my way has worked for all of my dogs. One dog took longer to learn, but it eventually works for me.


Well said. I personally feel the way you do. Personally, I didn't vote one way or the other on this poll because I feel there is a balance to be had on the both sides, depending on the situation. I would never go ape on my dog for something she did hours before hand (or for something in the moment) but I do think memory goes further than we think it does.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

but as someone said earlier, "memory vs association" 
The dog associates someone taking off the belt with pain and a beating. 
The dog doesn't "remember"' oh hey I knocked over the garbage can. 
So, when you correct the dog 20 minutes later, they associate you finding trash on the floor with punishment. They won't link that with "hey, if I knock over the can, trash is on the floor" So, the dog will continue to get into the trash and will look guilty when you come home.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I thought of a good (better?) explanation. 
The dog with the fear of belts is the perfect example - if it was remembering the belt = punishment for wrongdoing it wouldn't be afraid of belts in general. The dog would think "OK, I did nothing wrong today so that belt isn't for me." 

Instead, the dog associates the punishment with the fact that the person is taking off the belt. There is no correlation between the punishment and getting in the garbage or pottying on the floor.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is another good example. In the bathroom at the vet's office and accidentally nicked Jax with her e-collar on a high setting. Three months later, she refused to go into that room. yes, she remembered...but she only remember that something in the ROOM hurt her. No correlation to anything going on within the room


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

No. I don't. If I don't catch them in the act there is no point in doing anything at all. When I was having issues with Pippa getting out of her crate and I was coming home to my house in shambles, I would just sigh and bite my tongue and put the dogs out while I cleaned it up and then let them back in. No point in getting angry, yelling or even "punishing". Odds were beyond great that she wouldn't have a clue what I was angry about. It did make me work diligently on finding a solution to keeping her confined though.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> You can disagree all you want but it's a fact. Look it up.


Correct. Many people think their dog understands its done something wrong because it looks "guilty", when in fact all the dog is responding to is its owners anger/disappointment. It has no clue as to why the person is upset. Catch it in the act, or forget about any kind of correction.
______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I always thought dogs live in the moment and all it takes is 2-3 seconds for them to lose the behavior and not make the association afterwards (at least not that strong of an association). If they look guilty when you spot the mess its because they sense you are upset and are trying to appease you.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Are you referring to ME? :rofl: That's funny.
> 
> It's not the first time someone disagreed with me and won't be the last
> 
> ...


I disagree with Jax on occasions. It doesn't mean I'm a bad owner, it just means Jax is wrong


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

vicky2200 said:


> I'm not even voting in this poll and this is the last thing I am saying on this matter. I never said that I punish my dogs. I said I correct them. I never said that I rub my dogs nose in their accidents. In fact, I wasn't talking about potty training, I was talking about teaching a dog not to destroy your home. If your dog isn't even potty trained, you shouldn't be leaving him/her alone at all. And finally, I never said that I CORRECT my dogs hours after they chew something up. I'm 100% positive that I said that I leave for 20 minutes and correct them when I return. Dogs do have a memory. I had a dog who was beaten with a belt in their last home and any time anyone took of their belt she cringed. This is using memory. When you teach your dog a trick, they are using memory. I do believe dogs live in the moment, to an extent, but not as fully as some of you people are saying. I'm not saying my way is the only correct way to teach a dog to behave alone in a home, but I am saying that my way has worked for all of my dogs. One dog took longer to learn, but it eventually works for me.


They may be using their memory, but they made the association between the belt and the pain a long time ago. Some other posters here said it much better than me and I agree with differentiating between associating and remembering. They will remember things for a long time, that's why we can train them, but they won't effectively associate something unless it's timed correctly. Again, others have said it much better than me.

On another note, I think we also tend to "forget" about the times we came home and the dog greeted us normally even though he made a mess and tend to add importance to the times we came home and he looked guilty. My dog looks guilty sometimes because he's too tired to get up and greet me but that would be quickly dismissed in my head. However, if I came home and he acted this way and there was a mess on the floor I might be inclined to think "look at that face he knows exactly what he did wrong" (and I'd be wrong...)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I had a dog who was beaten with a belt in their last home and any time anyone took of their belt she cringed. This is using memory.


That is an association. 
Belts = bad. 
Not "I did something bad, now I'm in trouble."
If it was a memory, she'd be fine with belts, except for if she had done something bad and someone was taking off a belt.

For those who really disagree, I'd encourage you to read Temple Grandin's books. I found a few used copies but I bet the library has them. 
You'll walk away with new insight about dogs, and it's really better to understand them and why they do things than assume and guess. 

I'm sure there's others out there that talk about the same things, but I have read hers and I know that she goes over these specific things.

BTW, you know how dogs get tangled up in their leashes, or walk around something and can't figure out how to go back around, for instance, a tree? 
That's because their memories are not long enough to even figure out how to go back the way they came out. A dog who can go back through (for instance) a picnic table once it's leash gets tangled more than once, is exceptional. They simply cannot remember sequences that got them there in the first place. 
Dogs memories are really _that short. _


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

If their memories are truly that short....how do agility dogs remember obstacles and how to get through them? I truly believe their memory is longer than what you are saying and I have READ Temple's book! 

I am not saying that it warrants punishing after the fact cause I feel that does not work nor is it fair to the dogs.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

NO! Dogs live IN THE MOMENT! I am going to assume that your use of the word “punishment” is just a matter of semantics. I never have punished our dogs for anything – I have corrected them when they do something that is inappropriate. That does NOT include potty accidents in the house or chewing a shoe etc. Whenever I hear some one tell me how they rubbed their dogs face in the pee or poop after going on the rug or hitting them with the shoe that they chewed I want to scream bloody murder. Sorry but this a real sore point with me. If you believe in positive reinforcement (as I do) “punishment” is not an option. Here’s what I and many of my trainer friends agree on: the dog doesn’t associate with the act after the fact – what they associate with is the fact that you are mad or annoyed and THAT is what they pick up on even if it’s days later. I just love it when I hear, “He knew what he did was wrong – he hung his head and put his tail between his legs.”


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> If their memories are truly that short....how do agility dogs remember obstacles and how to get through them? I truly believe their memory is longer than what you are saying and I have READ Temple's book!
> 
> I am not saying that it warrants punishing after the fact cause I feel that does not work nor is it fair to the dogs.


This isn't about long term memory...it's about associative memory.

Long term memory - remembering what to do at a jump
Associative Memory - LEARNING that the word Jump means to go over the agility jump


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I disagree with Jax on occasions. It doesn't mean I'm a bad owner, it just means Jax is wrong


I did that on purpose. :laugh:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> *This isn't about long term memory...it's about associative memory.*
> 
> Long term memory - remembering what to do at a jump
> Associative Memory - LEARNING that the word Jump means to go over the agility jump


Exactly - not to mention, a one time event that involves a dog getting tangled is usually not repeated so the dog learns nothing.
The example I used with the leash is _straight out of one of Temple's books._

Plus you teach obstacle courses _over and over_, and someone earlier mentioned muscle memory, we cannot discount that.


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> No. A dog associates something within 2-3 seconds. After that you are to late.



That's simply untrue. A little while ago my dog must have gotten a little stomach bug or something and she got a case of the runs while we were out of the house. She apparently couldn't hold it and had to go in the house, something she never does. 

As soon as we got home, she had her ears back and was acting strange. Then when we went downstairs to the basement, she came with us but absolutely refused to go into the room where she went to the bathroom. She was acting scared and it was obvious she knew that she did something wrong.

I actually felt bad for the poor girl. She obviously couldn't hold it and it probably upset her a lot to go in the house, but she had no choice as we weren't home. She knew though, and it was much longer than 2-3 seconds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

VonKromeHaus said:


> If their memories are truly that short....how do agility dogs remember obstacles and how to get through them? I truly believe their memory is longer than what you are saying and I have READ Temple's book!



I don't get how this analogy works? I don't take my dogs to agility, show then the dog walk, then go home, 3 hours later start saying "Dog walk!" and expect them to find a dog walk obstacle and do it. Of course dogs learn and remember things they were trained _in the moment_. You can't mark or name a behavior so long after the fact any more than you can correct or punish for it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

shaner said:


> That's simply untrue. A little while ago my dog must have gotten a little stomach bug or something and she got a case of the runs while we were out of the house. She apparently couldn't hold it and had to go in the house, something she never does.
> 
> As soon as we got home, she had her ears back and was acting strange. Then when we went downstairs to the basement, she came with us but absolutely refused to go into the room where she went to the bathroom. She was acting scared and it was obvious she knew that she did something wrong.
> 
> I actually felt bad for the poor girl. She obviously couldn't hold it and it probably upset her a lot to go in the house, but she had no choice as we weren't home. She knew though, and it was much longer than 2-3 seconds.


How can you prove the dog is feeling "guilt"? Dogs do NOT want to poop in their homes any more than you or I want to poop in our pants. So of course when you get home the dog is thinking "gee you left me here and I HAD to go because I was sick but no one was here to let me out! I already felt sick and now I had to poop in my own house too!" Of course the dog is going to look and act a bit off. Maybe she was not feeling guilt but feeling upset that she was forced to poop in her house?


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Liesje said:


> How can you prove the dog is feeling "guilt"? Dogs do NOT want to poop in their homes any more than you or I want to poop in our pants. So of course when you get home the dog is thinking "gee you left me here and I HAD to go because I was sick but no one was here to let me out! I already felt sick and now I had to poop in my own house too!" Of course the dog is going to look and act a bit off. Maybe she was not feeling guilt but feeling upset that she was forced to poop in her house?


When we walked into the room she went in, I was obviously quite shocked to see she did that and said something of the sort to the GF (can't remember what now, it was a while ago) and Cedar slinked away like she was in trouble. It seemed obvious to me that Cedar felt like she did something bad.

I would never punish her for something like that obviously, but she sure seemed like she understand what she did was not okay.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You can't mark or name a behavior so long after the fact any more than you can correct or punish for it.


Right. In the same way it doesn't work to punish more than 5-10 seconds after the fact, you cannot train a dog to sit by telling it "sit" then giving it a treat _for sitting_ 10 minutes later. 
Timing is everything


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

shaner said:


> When we walked into the room she went in, I was obviously quite shocked to see she did that and said something of the sort to the GF (can't remember what now, it was a while ago) and Cedar slinked away like she was in trouble. It seemed obvious to me that Cedar felt like she did something bad.
> 
> I would never punish her for something like that obviously, but she sure seemed like she understand what she did was not okay.


Does she normally slink around when you correct or punish her during the act? I would think that is overkill. If I'm doing obedience with my dog and they get a correction, they don't go slinking off. So if I come home and my dog seems "off" and is slinking around, my assumption is that he's really not feeling well, not that he has any reason to feel "guilty" about it since it was not his fault.

Of course pottying in the house is not OK. Think of it from the dog's point of view. Do you think she wanted to do it or didn't care? If so then why is it a rare occurrence or only when the dog is sick? She probably felt like crap b/c she had the runs and then felt even worse that she had no choice but to poop in the house.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> That is an association.
> *Belts = bad. *
> *Not "I did something bad, now I'm in trouble."*
> *If it was a memory, she'd be fine with belts, except for if she had done something bad and someone was taking off a belt.*
> ...


The belt thing is a good example. If the dog was truly capable of understanding what he did hours ago, and that it was "wrong," he would only be afraid of a belt coming out if he'd done "wrong." I'd be willing to bet, though, any dog ever hit by a belt would show terror being shown a belt, no matter what he had or hadn't done.

Then you're even getting into pretty complex reasoning skills and consequences. I know dogs are smart, and likely smarter than I've thought, but the power to weigh consequences? 

That sounds like an interesting book.

And the picnic table thing? Ugh! I sure wish dogs could figure out how not to tangle around a picnic table!



EJQ said:


> NO! Dogs live IN THE MOMENT! I am going to assume that your use of the word “punishment” is just a matter of semantics. I never have punished our dogs for anything – I have corrected them when they do something that is inappropriate. That does NOT include potty accidents in the house or chewing a shoe etc. Whenever I hear some one tell me how they rubbed their dogs face in the pee or poop after going on the rug or hitting them with the shoe that they chewed I want to scream bloody murder. *Sorry but this a real sore point with me*. If you believe in positive reinforcement (as I do) “punishment” is not an option. Here’s what I and many of my trainer friends agree on: the dog doesn’t associate with the act after the fact – what they associate with is the fact that you are mad or annoyed and THAT is what they pick up on even if it’s days later. I just love it when I hear, “He knew what he did was wrong – he hung his head and put his tail between his legs.”


Yes, matter of semantics. I thought about that after I titled the thread, but was too late to edit. 

(The bolded) is a sore point to me as well. And when the owner tells his "story" about doing this, it's almost always with a smile on his face, like, "Hey, I really taught my dog whose boss!" No, I think you taught your dog the dog has an idiot for an owner.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

When Buddy was about 5 years old, we were out too long one day and night, rushed home and immediately let him out. Later, I found a washcloth in my big double tub, picked it up and there was dog poop under it. Buddy led me to the bathtub, looking rather sheepish. I felt sorry for him, that he had to go so bad and desperately looked for a place to go, then covered it with the washcloth out of shame. 

A bit amusing, but I once had a small beagle named Pup. We used to look at her and say, "You're a gross little individual" as she puked up whole rabbits, snored, sneezed gooey stuff on you, farted, you name it. I loved that obnoxious little dog, but she did try your patience sometimes. Anyone who has had beagles understands; they're real characters. If Pup had to poop while in the house and you weren't immediately there when she did, she had no problem going right on the spot. I was in the kitchen and Buddy came running in, all panicked, nudging me, then looking toward the other room, nudging me again to come. He's a tattle-tale. He came to show me Pup was pooping under the Christmas tree, and it was freaking him out. And I swear that beagle smiled at me when she did it.


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, I think they do associate things well after they've done the deed. For instance, we kept her in the bathroom when we were out for 15 to 20 minutes shopping for groceries. Came back and my room mate told me she chewed on my tooth brush and so my room mate threw it away.

When we got home, my room mate told us what happened. In a very calm voice, I said "Abby, come here." I brought the chewed up tooth brush to her. Once she saw it, she put her ears back and would not look at me. Again, no signs of anger from me. I approached her very calmly. That was 20 minutes after the deed so they definitely do have a memory. I'm thinking it really depends on the individual dog after reading some of these posts.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I don't get how this analogy works? I don't take my dogs to agility, show then the dog walk, then go home, 3 hours later start saying "Dog walk!" and expect them to find a dog walk obstacle and do it. Of course dogs learn and remember things they were trained _in the moment_. You can't mark or name a behavior so long after the fact any more than you can correct or punish for it.


It was a bad analogy cause I didn't read the whole thread. 

I agree that wouldn't work and you can not get them to associate something with something else hours later. They only can associate based on the object in hand, belt she etc....that those things are bad because of your attitude and body language.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSDkid said:


> Well, I think they do associate things well after they've done the deed. For instance, we kept her in the bathroom when we were out for 15 to 20 minutes shopping for groceries. Came back and my room mate told me she chewed on my tooth brush and so my room mate threw it away.
> 
> When we got home, my room mate told us what happened. In a very calm voice, I said "Abby, come here." I brought the chewed up tooth brush to her. Once she saw it, she put her ears back and would not look at me. Again, no signs of anger from me. I approached her very calmly. That was 20 minutes after the deed so they definitely do have a memory. I'm thinking it really depends on the individual dog after reading some of these posts.


I wonder if you'd have gotten the same reaction if you acted the same exact way but held up a different object, one she hadn't touched. Your face may have been communicating something to her you didn't even realize?


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

chelle said:


> I wonder if you'd have gotten the same reaction if you acted the same exact way but held up a different object, one she hadn't touched. Your face may have been communicating something to her you didn't even realize?


I'll test out that theory tonight.  

I don't think I was giving any body language. In the past, I've asked her to "come here" with a toy in my hand and she took it as playtime... Maybe they can read minds?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

A real simple test is to say, in your best "I'm *MAD* at you" voice..."What a GOOD DOG you are!"
And then in a kind, sweet voice, "aww you are the most naughty dog on earth!"


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> A real simple test is to say, in your best "I'm *MAD* at you" voice..."What a GOOD DOG you are!"
> And then in a kind, sweet voice, "aww you are the most naughty dog on earth!"


I think that's just testing if they know english but we all know dog's only speak Japanese. (if you saw that youtube video)


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSDkid said:


> I'll test out that theory tonight.
> 
> I don't think I was giving any body language. In the past, I've asked her to "come here" with a toy in my hand and she took it as playtime... Maybe they can read minds?


Hey, don't sacrifice another toothbrush just for the sake of this thread!! 

And yeah, I think their mindreading skills are pretty good. :wild:

This memory vs association is really interesting to me and has made me think about it more now. For instance, when I put my coat on, the dogs sure know what that means... what they DON'T know is which one of them, if any, are going with me. When I pick up my keys and they jangle, same thing. When I grab the leashes off the hanger, OH BOY yippee...  Memory, association, associative memory.. I don't know, but they sure do.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDkid said:


> I don't think I was giving any body language. In the past, I've asked her to "come here" with a toy in my hand and she took it as playtime... Maybe they can read minds?


I don't know if you're married, but can't you tell if your husband/wife is mad and trying to act happy? Or tired after a long day but trying to cover it up? I know I can.

It's pretty common knowledge that they can sense emotion. Things like sweat production, hormones, heart rate, etc give them clues as to what we're feeling. If they can smell cancer, I have no doubt they can sense fear and anger, even if we're trying to act like we're not fearful or angry.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So when one of my dogs pooped downstairs(6 steps down)~ right when I came in the house why did Karlo do his stress/anxious jump on me?
I didn't even know anything about it at that time. He was the one that showed behaviors first. It took me a few minutes to "associate" why he was doing this. But I do know him, and the only time he ever jumps on me is when he's stressed or anxious. I still say we don't give them enough credit for their memory or intelligence.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> So when one of my dogs pooped downstairs(6 steps down)~ right when I came in the house why did Karlo do his stress/anxious jump on me?
> I didn't even know anything about it at that time. He was the one that showed behaviors first. It took me a few minutes to "associate" why he was doing this. But I do know him, and the only time he ever jumps on me is when he's stressed or anxious. I still say we don't give them enough credit for their memory or intelligence.



I think to a dog, pooping in the house is stressful. I would expect some anxiety. But I think what the thread is saying is that if you punished Karlo several hours after the fact, he'd never do it again because he'd know it is "wrong". I disagree with that on more than one level. First, I don't see pooping in the house as "wrong" because it's not like dogs want to do it or make a choice. If they are sick and can't hold it, it's an accident. So far everyone insists they don't punish their dog for doing it so I'm not sure what the anecdotal evidence really has to do with the topic of the thread - do dogs understand punishment after the fact. An accident is an accident, like when a kid I babysit for throws up on me and then cries and acts "sorry" for doing it. The kid is not being "bad", it was just an accident because he was sick.

I think in order to prove what this thread is really getting at, we need evidence of dogs being punished for a bad behavior long after the fact and then proving they won't do it again. For example, put a raw loin steak on the ground, go out of sight and let the dog eat it, 30 minutes later punish the dog. Then put a raw loin steak on the ground the next day, let the dog stay in the same room, and see if it's there 30 minutes later.... For me the topic of this thread is more about a dog actually learning (or not) than how our dogs act when they are sick and poop in the house.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> So when one of my dogs pooped downstairs(6 steps down)~ right when I came in the house why did Karlo do his stress/anxious jump on me?
> I didn't even know anything about it at that time. He was the one that showed behaviors first. It took me a few minutes to "associate" why he was doing this. But I do know him, and the only time he ever jumps on me is when he's stressed or anxious. I still say we don't give them enough credit for their memory or intelligence.


Just a random thought...ya know I get those alot!...but we do train them over and over and over to NOT poop in the house so maybe just like training them to go over jumps, their long term memory is telling them that what happened was bad.

Perhaps, we are using the wrong example to prove the memory point because houseTRAINING is a long term memory training issue not an associative training issue.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He wasn't the one that pooped!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> He wasn't the one that pooped!


But someone did and his long term memory said they weren't supposed to do that so it would stress him out. Jax gets stressed when the other animals are doing something they aren't supposed to do. I watched a GSD at a vet's office get bent because Jax went behind the reception desk and he thought she shouldn't do that because he was taught not to.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDkid said:


> I think that's just testing if they know english but we all know dog's only speak Japanese. (if you saw that youtube video)


No I didn't see it...
But it's about body language and tone of voice as much as "knowing" they did something bad. 
They perceive that you are upset, but really have no idea _why _you are.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> But someone did and his long term memory said they weren't supposed to do that so it would stress him out. Jax gets stressed when the other animals are doing something they aren't supposed to do. I watched a GSD at a vet's office get bent because Jax went behind the reception desk and he thought she shouldn't do that because he was taught not to.


Yes, just like when Layla drops poop out because of poor muscle tone (back problems) and the other dogs start shaking, the ones who were scolded and spanked or nose-rubbed as puppies. 
The ones not disciplined like that, but told "no", and taken outside, do not have such bad associations with poo on the floor. It doesn't matter that they themselves did not make the mess, all they know is "Poop on floor = I'm gonna get in trouble!"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mine do the same, usually if one dog poops in the house (like diarrhea from being sick) Coke also poops in the house even though he's not sick. He gets stressed quicker and is more sensitive than the other dogs. Last time Pan was sick and pooped (and Coke too), Nikon was howling and chattering his teeth as I came in the door.

But still....pooping and being sick = accidents. Unless someone wants to come forward and admit to punishing their dog for pooping and proving they never had another accident again... What does pooping have to do with this topic?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LOL I do not know?


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

chelle said:


> This memory vs association is really interesting to me and has made me think about it more now. For instance, when I put my coat on, the dogs sure know what that means... what they DON'T know is which one of them, if any, are going with me. When I pick up my keys and they jangle, same thing. When I grab the leashes off the hanger, OH BOY yippee...  Memory, association, associative memory.. I don't know, but they sure do.


 See! They do remember things!

I don't believe that after peeing on the floor, the dog would forget about that what they did just seconds, even hours later. I'm not saying you should rub their nose in it. Accidents happen. Now in regards to chewing my tooth brush, I don't think I displayed any signs of negative energy/body language towards her. All I said was, "Abby, come here" as I would during training. She walked in my room very excited. Then pulled out the tooth brush and calmly said, "Look what I got!"

Bam, ears down and head lowered. Again, I'm not angry but I want her to know that I know what she did.

Here's another one. I have a small room roughly 10x13 specifically for training (Yes, very small for a GSD). Anyways, me and the DW was cooking and finished dinner. Time for training and I spotted a dark brown area on the rug. Smelled it... Poop. So the poop was not there but the color on the carpet was still visible. I acted as if nothing happened and called Abby for training. She rushed into the room very excited. After a few exercises, I go "Abby, what's that?" I brought it up as if it were an exercise. (ears back, head down) She walks over and I can smell the poop from her breath. She ate it so we wouldn't find the evidence...

BTW, we just took her out about 2 hours earlier and there were no changes in her food so I highly doubt it was diarrhea.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my case this was the first time in a very, very long time that a dog had an accident. I really don't remember when we had this happen before...barf, yes. Thats why Karlo's attitude was puzzling, but of course I'm sure his stress from the smell had much to do with it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> What does pooping have to do with this topic?


Should we REALLY go there? :rofl:


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Should we REALLY go there? :rofl:


Buahahha, I never should have mentioned pooping (housebreaking) in my opening. So, so not about POOP! (But I'm a little poop obsessive, since Mr Bails has had so much trouble with his, er, elimination issues.)

So yes let's not talk about poop. Everytime I hear that word, I picture that stupid poop chart. Very helpful, yes, but I'm tired of examining poop!!!!!  Even worse, I saw a dog tonight at the park that pooped a super fine specimen. I actually felt jealous. Ok, something is really, really wrong with me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> And then in a kind, sweet voice, "aww you are the most naughty dog on earth!"


I do that to Halo all the time! She's a naughty little minx, and I love to tell her "Halo, you're a very bad dog!" in a happy tone of voice. She grins and wags her tail at me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LOL I do the same with mine. A few of mine are ****-rejects (too evil for Satan even!) and I tell them so in my "happy" voice, and they think it's wonderful!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I do that to Halo all the time! She's a naughty little minx, and I love to tell her "Halo, you're a very bad dog!" in a happy tone of voice. She grins and wags her tail at me.


LOL, I ask my Pug all the time why he is so naughty. He just stands there, snorting and grunting, with his little curled tail ever so slightly twitching as I ask him, too. Then he drops down into a play bow, and I swear he FLIRTS with me.

He is a very naughty dog. 
Sheilah


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

chelle said:


> Buahahha, I never should have mentioned pooping (housebreaking) in my opening. So, so not about POOP! (But I'm a little poop obsessive, since Mr Bails has had so much trouble with his, er, elimination issues.)
> 
> So yes let's not talk about poop. Everytime I hear that word, I picture that stupid poop chart. Very helpful, yes, but I'm tired of examining poop!!!!!  Even worse, I saw a dog tonight at the park that pooped a super fine specimen. I actually felt jealous. Ok, something is really, really wrong with me.


Ok-I am also pooped obsessed so I have to ask you-what poop chart? If one really exists I'd like to have a look at it.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

chelle said:


> And the picnic table thing? Ugh! I sure wish dogs could figure out how not to tangle around a picnic table!


I teach my dogs "go around" meaning to go back the way they came when they get their leash wrapped around something. They pick it up pretty quickly once I show them what to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Of course they remember things. But what exactly do they remember?

It is kind of like how when you use your debit card, the money goes out of your bank account in nano seconds, but it takes three business days for them to credit a reversal. Dogs are the same. When a dog gets something awesome they remember it. They remember when they were praised. Sometimes it takes a while for them to associate the praise to the behavior and timing is everything. 

Once I had a five week old puppy that I had out of the puppy pen in the front yard and he managed to find a chicken bone. I scarfed him up and removed the bone from him and dumped him back in the puppy pen. 7 hours later I let him loose in the yard again, and he made a bee-line to the place where that bone had been. He remembered, no doubt in my mind. He is a scavenger and remembered the location of a tasty morsel. Nature provided him that type of memory. 

And we can use that type of memory to build positive associations to behaviors we want the dog to perform. If our pup gets a tidbit within seconds of pooping outside, every time he poops outside in a certain location, he WILL associate the behavior to the tidbit and soon you can build the habit of pooping in that spot, at that point, treats can become intermittent and then eliminated completely. 

Now training the dog to not do a particular thing by applying some negative tone, correction, or punishment. First of all, you are trying to train to the dog to avoid punishment rather than attain praise or treat. The danger in this is that the dog is just as likely to associate the punishment with you, rather than the behavior you want the dog to avoid. If you are within seconds, then some success is probable. But after twenty minutes or six hours, forget it. The dog is just associating your coming home with an unpleasant scene. And if you are in a good mood, tail wags. If you are in a bad mood, tail droops and punishment may or may not be forthcoming. No idea whatsoever why. Teaching a dog what to do with praise/treats is much easier than training a dog what not to do with punishment. More fun too.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think people who punish after the fact probably aren't actually punishing after the fact. They probably interrupted their dog misbehaving by coming home, and have essentially caught their dog in the act. That's probably why some people get positive results from it. When something has been chewed up or if your dog has gotten into the garbage, how can you be sure that you _haven't_ just caught it in the act when you've come home? A lot of the time you can't really tell if your dog got into the garbage can an hour ago or if they were still chewing up until you came in the door.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is always easier to teach a dog (or puppy) to do something rather than to not do something.

We tell adopters this all the time. 
For instance...you can spank a puppy all day long, or rub it's nose all day long, but until you teach the puppy where to potty, it will do no good. You could even tell the puppy, "don't GO potty on my rug!" but until you reach it the correct place to go, it will learn nothing except going potty really sucks.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> But someone did and his long term memory said they weren't supposed to do that so it would stress him out. Jax gets stressed when the other animals are doing something they aren't supposed to do. I watched a GSD at a vet's office get bent because Jax went behind the reception desk and he thought she shouldn't do that because he was taught not to.


Sasha did this when I was dog sitting for my mom's friend. The do peed on my floor right in front of me (she was marking) and Sasha looked up at me like "Did you see that?! Suzy's gonna be in trouBle!" I almost started cracking up. Sasha's never been in severe trouble with me when she's peed inside (she's been told firmly "no" and taken outside) but she still knew it was the rule, and Suzy had broke the rule, in her/my bedroom no less! Suzy also got on the furniture, which isn't allowed at my mom's, and you could tell Sasha knew it was wrong. I found it very amusing. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't caught her every time, Sasha would have come and tattled.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Ok-I am also pooped obsessed so I have to ask you-what poop chart? If one really exists I'd like to have a look at it.


Ahh, yes here it is: http://media.weirduniverse.net/poop_sheet2_2.jpg
I wish I could give credit to the poster who originally gave me this link. Stand and take credit if you know who you are! 



Chicagocanine said:


> I teach my dogs "go around" meaning to go back the way they came when they get their leash wrapped around something. They pick it up pretty quickly once I show them what to do.


I'll try that in the future. I eventually just moved the dang picnic table.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> It is always easier to teach a dog (or puppy) to do something rather than to not do something.
> 
> We tell adopters this all the time.
> For instance...you can spank a puppy all day long, or rub it's nose all day long, but until you teach the puppy where to potty, it will do no good. You could even tell the puppy, "don't GO potty on my rug!" but until you reach it the correct place to go, it will learn nothing except going potty really sucks.


I agree.

When we were potty training the rule in our house was if the puppy poops or pees on the floor it's our fault for not taking him out or having two eyes on him...it's NOT the puppies fault and there cannot be any punishment..it's done & over.

Recently my husband left his pair of $$ sunglasses inside his hat and fell asleep with our boy resting at his feet on the couch...but woke up to his glasses being broken into several pieces...guess whose fault it was? My husbands...did our boy feel bad about what he did or show any stress over it? Nope...he didn't care! Again, there was no punishment..my husband told him "out" and whatever was left was dropped on the floor.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh yeah I wanted to add another thing I've found useful that is similar to the "go around" thing... I also teach my dogs "fix your leg" for when they get the leash caught around a leg. My terrier would fix it on his own but my other dogs would just leave it wrapped around until I bent down and lifted their leg myself to get the leash untangled-- until I taught them "fix your leg" which basically means lift up the leg the leash is under. It only works if the leash is around a front leg though.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

liesje said:


> does she normally slink around when you correct or punish her during the act? I would think that is overkill. If i'm doing obedience with my dog and they get a correction, they don't go slinking off. So if i come home and my dog seems "off" and is slinking around, my assumption is that he's really not feeling well, not that he has any reason to feel "guilty" about it since it was not his fault.


Yup!! Spot on


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

chelle said:


> Ahh, yes here it is: http://media.weirduniverse.net/poop_sheet2_2.jpg
> I wish I could give credit to the poster who originally gave me this link. Stand and take credit if you know who you are!
> 
> 
> ...


haha, I can't believe there is a chart for that. Ok-my dogs poops are now at 100 with the food I have been feeding them. One eats TOTW and the other eats 4Health. Thing is that my lab is a pooper. If you set off on a long walk with him he will poop and the first poop will be a score of 100. And then about 20 min into the walk he will poop again and this time it will look more like a 75 score. I am thinking because the excitement of the walk or something causes the poop to move quicker through the intestines or something! Sorry not trying to hijack your thread and make it into a poop thread.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

NO I do not punish or yell at the dogs unless I catch them in the act. 
I hate to admit that I was from the "old school" of rubbing nose in it until I got Apache. He was a little slow to house break, and the last pup was almost 10 years prior. When I told Apache's breeder I tried to rub his nose in she flipped out, luckily it didn't take much for me to see the light. I have gotten into several arguements with different people about this over the years. Some people don't understand and don't want to change thier ways because they are always right. My friend who took Lakota's brother is a nose rubber. He used to boast about how everytime his pup chewed the rug or did something, he used to run and hide when he got home and he'd say "he knows he was bad" as I tried to argue no he's just scared your going to yell or hit him, he has no idea why.
When one of my dogs has an accident on the rug, they all act very humble, avoid walking thru the area, they side step or tippy toe anything to avoid it. So in a sense I think they know it's wrong, I can't get mad if it's diarrea which it's usually the case. When I leave them out in the yard and later on I find holes dug, I act upset as I cover the holes I think they know why but theres no point in "punishing" or yelling at them at that point.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It is always easier to teach a dog (or puppy) to do something rather than to not do something.
> 
> We tell adopters this all the time.
> For instance...you can spank a puppy all day long, or rub it's nose all day long, but until you teach the puppy where to potty, it will do no good. You could even tell the puppy, "don't GO potty on my rug!" but until you reach it the correct place to go, it will learn nothing except going potty really sucks.


This is so true. Rey anxiously chewed on me and my things. When I started flopping the leash on the end on her nose (something she hates) to stop her, and then started giving her the Kong when she looked for something to chew on, she learned very fast. I seriously thought I'd lose my mind for a few weeks until I redirected the behavior.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

chelle said:


> The belt thing is a good example. If the dog was truly capable of understanding what he did hours ago, and that it was "wrong," he would only be afraid of a belt coming out if he'd done "wrong." I'd be willing to bet, though, any dog ever hit by a belt would show terror being shown a belt, no matter what he had or hadn't done.
> 
> Then you're even getting into pretty complex reasoning skills and consequences. I know dogs are smart, and likely smarter than I've thought, but the power to weigh consequences?
> 
> ...


On the money!!!


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## SamanthaBrynn (Sep 2, 2011)

Our trainer explained this very well to us. He said he had a lady tell him once that her dog ran off and wouldn't come back in the yard. He asked what happened when the dog came home?? She said I spanked him. WELL DUH, would you want to come home if you were going to get spanked? They only know the last action, and then your re-action. I find it pointless and mean to punish after the fact because they don't know why they're being punished. IMO


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by 1rockyracoon1 
Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there


Konotashi said:


> *Actually, they're more than likely thinking that you and your friends are total psychos, and punishing a dog for pottying in the house in this manner will cause them to think, "Oh, I can't put it where they'll see it or they'll go insane and stick my face in it." Then they will try and potty out-of-sight, making your job harder. It may work for some dogs, but others will hide their potty spots. *
> 
> I feel like dogs are very 'in the moment.' Yeah, they will eventually associate certain things that will rapidly change our mood in a negative way, but for them to associate that the reaction is coming from us due to what they did is unrealistic, IMO. For example. You think the dog is housebroken, so you leave him out. Come home, the house is DESTROYED. Yeah, you're probably going to get mad. Dog associates destroyed house to your anger, not the fact that he destroyed the house.
> Would I punish the dog? No. I'd probably put him in another room while I cleaned up and could calm down, but I wouldn't yell and scream and go nuts.


I disagree with both the first and second statements. Dogs only associate punishment with the crime, as Jax stated, if they occur with seconds. Dogs don't 'think' or plan. As far as they are concerned, any potty they see 'in the wrong' place has no value to them other than its odor or maybe (yuck) its appeal. I do agree with the part about thinking you and your friends are not to be trusted because sometimes you come home and praise and sometimes you come home and punish and dog has NO idea why.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Last week I walked in the door, my husband was sitting in the chair. I said "whats wrong" and all I got was BLA BLA BLA I can't take it anymore BLA BLA BLA........ I stood there at the doorway feeling ever so humble and all I could think of was I didn't do anything why was he yelling at me, I didn't poop on the floor. One of the older dogs had an accident on the rug in the sunroom the day before, then next day the other dog threw up on the kitchen rug. He doesn't do well with cleaning up.
So I know exactly how a dog feels when you just start getting yelled at and you have no idea why.


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## Oskar der Drachen (Oct 28, 2011)

Liesje said:


> What Really Prompts The Dog's 'Guilty Look'
> 
> 
> Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump science.


Male dog, 15 months old, not neutered.

How do I correct a dog if he has re-started toileting in the house? Bear has been good to go in the house sine 6 months, and has recently re started toileting in the house again. Same food, same routines, proven ability to "hold it" and he is 15 months now.

Recent re-start. Always in the same part of the living room. Poo and pee both. You can't even say that the wake-up hours have changed even though we are on Summer schedules. He hit the floor again this morning and the first person up was at 6:30.

My first impulse is to punish, and then re-start crate sleeping at night.

I need help desperately!

What do I do, where do I go from here?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Oskar der Drachen said:


> What do I do, where do I go from here?


Go back to potty training basics. Literally start over.

If you catch him in the act, calmly interrupt him and whisk him outside, then say "Go potty!" (or whatever his word is), and let him finish outside. When he does, *praise him like he made you the happiest human in the world*--not just an indifferent "good boy," but the kind of over-the-top, effusive praise that will make your neighbors giggle. You want the dog to think, "Whee! Pottying outside makes my human happy and it's fun!"

Meanwhile, take him out to his potty spot a few minutes after every meal, after waking (including naps), and after playing. Tell him, "Go potty!" When he does, *praise him like he made you the happiest human in the world*. Crate at night, if necessary, then take out as soon as he wakes up.

Do this like clockwork -- and if needed, keep the dog on a leash next to you in the house so there are no opportunities for accidents. 

After a week of "re-training," at 15 months, he should be back on track. For reference, I can usually have a new foster who has never set foot in a house potty trained this way in a week or less--to reinforce training that's already there in your dog, it should take less. 

Set the dog up for success! If there's an accident, don't get mad at the dog--blame yourself for not taking him out often enough during the retraining. DO NOT PUNISH HIM FOR PEEING IN THE HOUSE UNLESS YOU WANT A DOG AFRAID TO PEE IN FRONT OF YOU -- I've had a number of fosters who were afraid to pee on a leash on a walk (or even in the backyard with me nearby) because ignorant humans had punished them for peeing in the wrong spot, so they had internalized "peeing makes humans scary." It's a _very _hard thing to rehabilitate, once a dog gets that in their head!

ETA: Make sure you clean any accidents with a good enzyme cleaner so there's no residue to attract him back to that spot.


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## Oskar der Drachen (Oct 28, 2011)

Magwart said:


> Go back to potty training basics. Literally start over.
> 
> If you catch him in the act, calmly interrupt him and whisk him outside, then say "Go potty!" (or whatever his word is), and let him finish outside. When he does, *praise him like he made you the happiest human in the world*--not just an indifferent "good boy," but the kind of over-the-top, effusive praise that will make your neighbors giggle. You want the dog to think, "Whee! Pottying outside makes my human happy and it's fun!"
> 
> ...


Thank you.

I am/was right there in in the "freak out & go crazy" zone about this. I did not grab & punish even though I desperately wanted to. I mean WTF is going on? Why *now* after all this time? Ahhhhh!

Things that are different: My parents are staying for Christmas, decorations are up plus tree. I'm a teacher so my waking schedule is different, Summer schedule.

What I *think* might be going on. Last Pee of the night he bombs about the yard Investigating and he had always stopped to do his business during this. Maybe with all the new things (plus a Tree in the house?) schedules and settings are different enough to throw him.

Solutions: As above plus Bear on the long lead at night till he stops to potty. Back in the crate at night till Mom & Dad go and the Tree comes down.

Additional Issues for me... Acute Embarrassment in front of my parents. At 44 the last thing I want to look like is the "incompetent doggy Dad making excuses for hit bitty baby boy" Aagh Ick


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Oskar der Drachen said:


> My first impulse is to punish, and then re-start crate sleeping at night.


You're half right. First thing, vet check to make sure no parasites or UTI and then start crating again at night.



Oskar der Drachen said:


> *Why *now* after all this time?* Ahhhhh!
> 
> Things that are different: My parents are staying for Christmas, decorations are up plus tree. I'm a teacher so my waking schedule is different, Summer schedule.


This is probably why now. Change of scenery and schedule has likely thrown him off schedule. Go back to basics. 

Also, a rule reminder that acronyms for curses and psuedo cursing are against board rules.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

wrong post


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## Oskar der Drachen (Oct 28, 2011)

Sorry about the Board Rules thing. I know to what you refer, and won't do it again. I plead anguish. It's too late to edit myself, but please do if it sets a bad example.


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## Oskar der Drachen (Oct 28, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> You're half right. First thing, vet check to make sure no parasites or UTI and then start crating again at night.
> 
> This is probably why now. Change of scenery and schedule has likely thrown him off schedule. Go back to basics.


I had a quick search but it didn't bring up results. What does UTI stand for?

Ah, Google. Urinary Tract Infection.


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