# Can't do SAR if you do bite sports?



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Went to my 2nd SAR meeting last night and I really like the group, but I found out at the meeting that they do not allow dogs that have had any sort of training in bitework whether it's personal protection or IPO.  I really wanted to at least try both SAR & IPO with my next dog. I didn't realize it was going to be an either or situation. Do other SAR groups have this policy as well?


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Our group does.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Our group does


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think it is pretty common....insurance liability issues....I let a dog go to a co-owner...he was ready for his titles, I had put the BH on him....she did the Sch1, but then started working with a SAR trainer who made her choose between the two and she did SAR ....he is certified out the ears for SAR, but has never been on a real search to my knowledge....shame as he could have been a V KKL IPO3 dog and had alot of fun! So when you make your choice, make sure your group will actually go out and be utilized!

Lee


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

My team definitely has call outs. They've had 3 since the last month's meeting. Guess I will have to think about it.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

My SAR group allows SchH titled dogs. BUT it's done on a "case by case" basis, all depending on the individual dog. I knew of a few more groups that does the same thing.

My wilderness dog is titled to a SchHII.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Too late to edit, but I will add that we have since June been on 3 calls out, could have been more but I was not available to go. But we do get more call outs for HR searches than wilderness.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Our group allows Sch dogs on a case by case basis. They would rather not, but there were two ex-K9 officers in the group who were some of the best SAR dogs I've ever seen, so they had a few more restrictions than the regular members, but it worked well.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Interesting. I started a thread a few weeks ago about why some shelters/rescues have policies about dogs they adopt out not participating in bite sports. 

I assumed it was for liability issues similar to the ones Wolfstraum mentioned. This is further confirmation of that.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I should clarify that I was speaking of some shelters/rescues that I know of that specifically state that any dog adopted from their organization is contractually not permitted to take part in bite sport training. 

I am NOT saying that they will not adopt out dogs they may know to have had that training in the past... assuming the dog passes the temperament tests they administer.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I can understand why they wouldn't allow it. 

If you think about it, in SchH, when they're running the blinds, when they find the helper, they have to aggressively bark/hold the helper in place, and if he makes an advance, they bite. (From my understanding, anyway). 
I can see why SAR people wouldn't want this type of dog out looking for someone. Imagine that in a real life situation. SAR dog finds the person they're looking for, and the SchH training takes over their brain. They start the bark/hold, and if the person moves forward, the dog bites.... Obviously not every dog would do this, but I can definitely see the liability issue there.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We actually had a pretty good discussion on this recently as well - 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/search-rescue/189216-schutzhund-dogs-sar.html

I think the arguments can be made both ways but the way I see it - if a team has those rules -- they have those rules and integrity and ethics requires team members to comply. People are always free to organize their own team if they don't like it.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

No you can have no prior bite work with a dog that does professional work as therapy that I know of, won't make to the first hospital . We all have good dogs but it is a "Rule". I work two kinds of dogs because of that rule!!


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Konotashi said:


> I can understand why they wouldn't allow it.
> If you think about it, in SchH, when they're running the blinds, when they find the helper, they have to aggressively bark/hold the helper in place, and if he makes an advance, they bite. (From my understanding, anyway).
> I can see why SAR people wouldn't want this type of dog out looking for someone. Imagine that in a real life situation. SAR dog finds the person they're looking for, and the SchH training takes over their brain. They start the bark/hold, and if the person moves forward, the dog bites.... Obviously not every dog would do this, but I can definitely see the liability issue there.


My dogs indication is a stay and bark at the subject (more or less a SchH hold and bark) we have tested her every which way to make sure she does not bite the subject found (short of the subject being the aggressor with her) and she is rock solid. She stays and barks until I get there. That is why we test all the dogs on a case by case basis. 

I think any time working with a dog to locate an unknown subject there is a libility issues there. Any dog can bite, put in the wrong situation. How about an agressive subject that comes after the dog? If we know up-front that that could be the case we can treat the search a little different, but most of the time we have limited information on who we are looking for and what their state of mind is.

Lots of variables when you are out there. We do want to stack the odds in our favor and make sure our dogs do not bite the subject (hence a lot of groups have the no bite-training rule), but anything can happen.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think someone in a thick jacket swinging a stick at your dog may be a fair (and realistic) test though....


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Perhaps. But we are entering a very slippery slope here. Then why would we stop there? Why just test the dogs with bite training? Why not test all SAR dogs like that? To guarantee that none of them would bite if put in that situation. In all honesty, I know quite a few SAR dogs that have not had any bite-training that would gladly engage in that situation.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This is a good point.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Isn't it all about insurance and liability...when a SAR team is called to service by the city/state whatever it may be they're technically working for the city/state. They certainly have the insurance to deal with some liability but a dog that has been taught to bite, and has bitten (be it a sleeve) a human, is a different animal in the eyes of the law. The dog has been shown that in some situations its alright to bite people...but a dog that hasn't been taught that doesn't really know that there are situations where its alright to bite.

In court...all a person would have to show is that the dog has been taught and has bit people and it would pretty much seal the deal for who ever is suing. You guys should look up what kind of questioning a K9 handler has to go through in court when their dog apprehends a subject or searches out drugs or any other type of evidence. That dog's entire training regimen and records come into question...the success rate during training, the types of training exercises, ect...

So the same types of stuff will be called into question if a SAR dog ever does something wrong. Then not only the team will be liable but also the agency that hired them.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

If someone sues us for finding their lost loved one alive, literally saving their life, (even if they got bit by a dog, by the subject attacking/provoking the dog), then there is something wrong with this world and it will be time for me to quit SAR work.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

*Melgar v Greene. 2010 4th Circuit Court of Appeals*


Gaithersburg MD. (right up the street from you) Drunk kid probably would have died if the police dog had not found him...unfortunately he was under a bush, out of sight, and the dog bit his leg.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

So many things wrong with this case. But it does prove a point, people will do anything to make some $$.

Perhaps I should quit wilderness and concentrate on HR and US&R work.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

But I bet you have been there when you have had the runner come and say "he's been found" "he's alive!" or the code comes across on the radio....you know....some people are scums but.....that one moment is what makes it all worthwhile.

It sure means carry insurance, make sure all is in a row. We were advised to keep plenty of records to show the consistent sociability of our dogs.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

You are right..a very nice way to put it all in perspective


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> I can understand why they wouldn't allow it.
> 
> If you think about it, in SchH, when they're running the blinds, when they find the helper, they have to aggressively bark/hold the helper in place, and if he makes an advance, they bite. (From my understanding, anyway).
> I can see why SAR people wouldn't want this type of dog out looking for someone. Imagine that in a real life situation. SAR dog finds the person they're looking for, and the SchH training takes over their brain. They start the bark/hold, and if the person moves forward, the dog bites.... Obviously not every dog would do this, but I can definitely see the liability issue there.



That right there shows, that you need to learn a heck of a lot about Schutzhund Training. 

DEBUNKED

http://youtu.be/1JpbsEkCc54

I am getting so sick and tired of people saying that our dogs will run down a running victim and attack. Come on gimme a break!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SbmaJ7V66EM


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> That right there shows, that you need to learn a heck of a lot about Schutzhund Training.
> 
> DEBUNKED
> 
> ...


I'm not saying every SchH trained dog would do that, but would you be able to guarantee that NO SchH trained (or any dog, really) wouldn't do that?
And that's why I followed my statement with, "From my understanding."
I've never trained in SchH. So I don't have the full understanding (or much at all really) about the bitework trained dog.

I'm guessing not every SAR person would have the same understanding of these type of dogs as those who DO train these dogs. Can you see how they may think the scenario I mentioned could happen, if they have the same understanding as me?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the vast majority of the public do not understand dog sport nor do most non GSD SAR folks. It is not helped down here by a certain *******-beer-and-testosterone subclass who has little interest in the obedience and tracking portions.

And they should not be expected to have to understand. People need to be good ambassadors to show the value of the sport. But, yeah, I *still* have reservations and feel a SAR dog's only job should be SAR.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> And they should not be expected to have to understand. People need to be good ambassadors to show the value of the sport. But, yeah, I *still* have reservations and feel a SAR dog's only job should be SAR.


I understand where you are coming from, and I do see your concern. To me it still comes down to the individual dog. I have no worries about sending Eyra to find a lost person in the woods, but I do not think I will cross train my US&R dog for wilderness, he has a whole other outlook on things then Eyra does, and is far more serious then she is.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It all just depends. The team I was on allowed it on a case by case basis. 

And sorry..........out of all the SAR dogs I've seen, SchH dogs as a whole are WAAAAY more stable! I think a lot of sketchy dogs sneak through on a lot of teams in a lot of areas. 

Maybe people just manage their SchH dogs better, but I'd trust almost every dog in my SchH team to do SAR as well. I know a lot of great SAR dogs, but at trainings I went to I also met a lot of shy and unconfident types that I could totally see doing a fear bite if faced with an aggressively moving subject. 

If all SAR teams had the same standards as the better teams out there that would be one thing........

But you have to respect what the team wants! 

One thing to really consider, though, is that very few people really have the time to do both. And be honest about that. I was loosely doing SchH when I was doing SAR with Medo, but I was already previously involved with the SchH club I go to....and I was absolutely not goign to be doing any SchH style tracking.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, yes. The argument gets rehashed so many times.........but bottom line is the team makes the rules. Either way. But only a handful of teams (dogs + handler) can, I think, do both and do both well


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, it seems like there is less of a problem with Schutzhund in the North. The SchH Clubs in NY are highly professional and organized with lots of really good and successful people and a lot of club members travel between the clubs to train with each other. 

And it is not just an argument but a fact that the majority of SchH dogs are rock solid and stable dogs. Even those with issues have been turned around ia the Sport, into valuable members of the society.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Didn't realize this thread was still ongoing. Thanks for the link Nancy, it was a good read. I do understand where they're coming from by not allowing any dogs that have done bitework since the average person doesn't understand it. I guess I just never really thought of it before, so that's why I was surprised.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yeah, the average person is on a jury, too......In some ways I would rather have dogs who have had some pressure put on them so we find their underlying issues. Not necessarily the time investing doing schutzhund training but weeding out dogs who may react under REALISTIC pressures.

The friendly lab who jumps on granny and breaks her hip is perceived differently than a GSD who may bite someone going on the offense.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> That right there shows, that you need to learn a heck of a lot about Schutzhund Training.
> 
> DEBUNKED
> 
> ...


Here's the thing...you trust the dogs YOU'VE trained and the people YOU'VE trained with. Not everyone is like that.

And to tell you the truth...when I went to watch my region's Schutzhund trial (the one to qualify for nationals) I was not very impressed. There we dogs skipping blinds, there were dogs that kept biting the sleeve when they weren't supposed to, there were dogs that needed 3 or more commands to out...so yeah, to someone from the "public" it really didn't look impressive or even safe. The handlers looked like they had NO control over their dogs as soon as the bite work started.

By the way...I live in the North, and the trial was being held at a club that has a very very very well respected helper and trainer.

It has nothing to do with convincing the SAR team or the public. It has to do with the insurance company and people that have to pay millions of dollars when a dog makes a mistake. So as much as you want to scream the glory of Schutzhund (and trust me I'm all for it), it makes all the sense in the world why Schutzhund teams don't want dogs trained in bite sport.

I should add...all the dogs I saw at the trial...got passing scores for their obedience and their protection. The ones that didn't get a title failed the tracking portion. The mistakes I saw those dogs make in protection...lost them a point or two...and didn't just NQ them (I'm coming from AKC obedience where not making a jump will NQ you). From my point of view...and the public's point of view...it looks bad when a dog consistently bites the helper even when not told to and still gets 90+ points.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

All dogs are capable of biting. My dog karo is IRO titled sar ad well as ZVV1. He is a prey dog. Not civil. Nobody has any problem using him. I have some retrjevers that would bite if someone slapped them. It is about the individual dog


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