# Working Line Training



## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

My two year old is my first working line shepherd and the first to show aggression. She has nipped two people and tried to bite a third. The first I excused because a man unknown to her (but known to me) entered the house when I was in the other room. She tore his pants and bruised him but didn’t break the skin. The second was purely territorial when my husband had her on leash and a workman showed up. Another pair of pants torn, no bite. The third involved a woman coming toward my husband—he had Sparkle on leash—to give him something he didn’t want. He was saying “No, no,” and waving his hand as if to ward her off, but obviously was not stressed. The dog lunged at her. She walks nicely and isn’t aggressive toward other dogs on leash. However, we were invited to bring her with us when we had wine with friends. They were hoping she would help socialize their six month old lab. She has “communed” with this lab through the fence without showing any aggression. I was dubious but tried it. She jumped the lab. Twice. No harm, but scary looking. We naturally ended the session with the two dogs. She spent the visit lying next to me, quietly. She is a wonderful dog in so many ways but I want to feel confident having people come to the house and I’m upset that she didn’t see a tiny aging lady wasn’t a threat (my first shepherd, protection trained, wouldn’t attack a woman playing the decoy until she raised a styrofoam bat over me); and (2) that she didn’t see a puppy as a non-threat. The pup wasn’t being wild or pushy. I have had three trainers, none of whom regarded her as having a serious problem. I implemented several of their suggestions—primarily “place” while ringing the doorbell and treating if she held her position. I don’t want to spend more than I already have—a small fortune—but I also want a dog that can accept friends and workers coming in without barking. Her recall is 100%, she listens and looks at me on command, she gets plenty of attention (not if you ask her though) and exercise. Any advice would be appreciated. Sorry for the long-winded post.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Trade your GSD for your friend's Lab?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Just a guess but this is probably a socialization issue combined with a sharp dog. 

Can you describe the early socialization and training program the dog went through before 4 months?

From 4 months to now?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

German Shepherds don't typically allow strangers into their homes without some reaction. Mine bark very loudly and will only back down when they are given a command. However, they don’t bite. GSDs aren’t always go-everywhere dogs. Breed standard includes some aggression.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Just a guess but this is probably a socialization issue combined with a sharp dog.
> 
> Can you describe the early socialization and training program the dog went through before 4 months?
> 
> From 4 months to now?


There was an issue with early socialization. The breeder was filling in for a friend with cancer who also had a kennel and lived some distance away, so she wasn’t able to give the pups as much attention as she should have. I got Sparkle when she was 9 weeks old. She showed the stress of having spent her life in isolation from people and cars and just about everything. She was the middle pup; that is, there was a runt (hermaphrodite!) that the breeder tried to get me to take. She was too small and the breeder confided she had been very ill originally. Then there was a gorgeous fearless girl who would've been too much dog,for us and the breeder said correctly that dog,should go to a working home. Sparkle ignored us for the first ten minutes, then came over to me and allowed me to pet her. They were on a remote ranch, the woman wasn’t married, and I don’t think, apart from potential buyers, anyone came around. I worked with her slowly to build her tolerance, asking people who visited to ignore her and declining to let people touch her at first. At first she wouldn’t permit anyone except us to touch her. Now, outside our property, she either ignores people or will solicit petting from them occasionally, just by standing still close to them. We are isolating in place at a remote cabin because of Covid so I worry that she will intensify her tension around people. Away from our property, she’s fine with people but she has intense prey and territorial drives, and solid pack drive. I suspect she has strong defense drive but I think it’s probably not a good idea to protection train her, something I have done with the other three shepherds I have owned. When people come to the house, I crate her until she settles because she looks and acts very intimidating. When I let her out, she shows curiosity but no aggression.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> German Shepherds don't typically allow strangers into their homes without some reaction. Mine bark very loudly and will only back down when they are given a command. However, they don’t bite. GSDs aren’t always go-everywhere dogs. Breed standard includes some aggression.


True and the one thing I felt positive about in that incident was he fled out the door (still open) but she didn’t pursue him.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Just a guess but this is probably a socialization issue combined with a sharp dog.
> 
> Can you describe the early socialization and training program the dog went through before 4 months?
> 
> From 4 months to now?


I don’t think I know what you mean by “sharp dog”—but I think you are right that it is a socialization issue.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Just a guess but this is probably a socialization issue combined with a sharp dog.
> 
> Can you describe the early socialization and training program the dog went through before 4 months?
> 
> From 4 months to now?


Okay, looked it up with a video example. She is nothing like that dog. Yes, she shows aggression, possibly fear aggression, but she isn’t a dominant dog by any measure. My first shepherd was an alpha, totally calm, never challenging, but always ready if needed. Terriers bark? Who cares, she said. A great dog and I miss her every day. She lived to bite but never bit anyone inappropriately.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A dog with strong aggression tears flesh not pants. You dog felt threatened and was trying to chase the threat away.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> A dog with strong aggression tears flesh not pants. You dog felt threatened and was trying to chase the threat away.


Right. But there was no threat.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> Right. But there was no threat.


Now teach that to your dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You might not have perceived a threat but your dog likely did.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sharp means low threshold, not dominant or confident.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Think seriously about acclimating your dog to wearing a muzzle while you're working on a solution.That she was able to go after and make contact with the perceived threat _while leashed_ is concerning.Knowing when your dog is beginning to feel tense and teaching an alternate behavior may be less stressful if there's no worries about a bite happening.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Sharp means low threshold, not dominant or confident.


She has that.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Bearshandler said:


> Now teach that to your dog.


I want to but so far the message isn’t getting through. I had hoped somebody could give me tips on how to make that clear to her.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> I want to but so far the message isn’t getting through. I had hoped somebody could give me tips on how to make that clear to her.


It sounds to me like she could do with some impulse control. How is her obedience? What kind of training have you done with her? How did she manage to bite the worker when she was on a leash?


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Bearshandler said:


> It sounds to me like she could do with some impulse control. How is her obedience? What kind of training have you done with her? How did she manage to bite the worker when she was on a leash?


To answer your last question first, my husband was taken by surprise so she got to the worker’s pants, but not his flesh, thank god. But I do think my husband, who doesn’t have years of experience with dogs and thus doesn’t read them well, signals his tension through the leash and that accounted for both of the last two incidents. Her impulse control is pretty good. She will sit and look at me until I release her to eat and she knows not to bother the other two dogs until they finish. I can get her to come back when she’s in high prey drive, although once she found a deer irresistible. Since then I have used a whistle whenever her prey drive is activated on our walk. Soon as she hears the whistle, she turns around and races back. She is very obedient about “most” things BUT she still now and then jumps on us, mostly on my husband, but sometimes I do see her restraining the impulse. Other than that, I would say this aggression is our only major concern. She isn’t a dominant dog, definitely middle of the road, but not overly fearful about most things such as vacuum cleaners, loud noises, or even barking dogs. Which is why her jumping that puppy shocked me. I thought she would play rough—she does—but not aggressively.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

That first incident you mention, among other things, shows a lack of impulse control. You should be able to tell the dog to sit or down next to you, and the dog remain in that position until you say so. I think raising your expectations in obedience would really help. Your dog also sounds a bit on the fearful side. i would work on a more service style heel with her, where she remains in position next to you as you walk but is free to look around, and take her through different places around different people to get more comfortable. You and your husband should stop and interact with people, but they should not interact with the dog. She needs to remain in position. This should help her understand that random people approaching you are not a threat necessarily. For the people in the house, I would work on holding position, and once it was to a satisfactory level, begin introducing people to while she holds the position.You can also teach her a place command to go to when guests arrive. Overall, if leaving her out when guests arrive is what you want, you will need to get her use to people coming and going from your house.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

I think you are right about socialization being the primary issue, exacerbated by a lower threshold than would be desirable. But she’s not a classically (or maybe I mean hereditarily) fearful dog in that she doesn’t cower or run away from anything, and she can relax with people in the house. The first incident, involving the “stranger” entering our house, I think was territorial. The next two struck me as fear aggression and possibly that accounted for her jumping the lab too, although I don’t get it since she doesn’t show fear or aggression when she walks past other dogs. She watches them, not exactly relaxed, but not tail tucked or barking. I have done some of what you suggest—place, she’s got that down. I have taken her to Home Depot, we regularly walked around a lake, encountering bikes, dogs, people, scooters, etc. When she was a pup, she initially freaked, having never seen any of these in her life except, of course, at least one person—but possibly only one person. Eventually she was fine with all of it. But for the first: months I had her, she wanted nothing to do with people. Now she will approach our guests and allow them to pet her. I’ve had as many as fifteen people visiting and (after being crated for twenty minutes) she was fine with it although toward the end of the evening I crated her because I could see she was getting tired and over-stimulated. My husband and I are older and sheltering from Covid in a remote cabin so very few opportunities to bring people in, but, as I say, she did fine with the people we had a glass of wine with a week ago. And she will sit or lie next to me on command. She is great with “settle”—does so quickly even when agitated. I have not done any heeling with her though and I think I need to start. Finally, recently a worker came to deliver propane. She started barking as did the other two. I told them all to stop and they did. I went out and spoke to the man—no barking, no aggression—in fact, she lay down and went to sleep. So I don’t know. Maybe she’s out-growing some of this. But I can’t reciprocate the invitation from the lab owners because they would want to bring their dog and I know Sparkle would be a pain in the derrièr. Anyway, thank you for the time you have taken with my issues. I know it’s difficult to diagnose an unseen dog, especially when you can’t get a handle on how much or how little the owner understands.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

gslover60 said:


> I think you are right about socialization being the primary issue, exacerbated by a lower threshold than would be desirable. But she’s not a classically (or maybe I mean hereditarily) fearful dog in that she doesn’t cower or run away from anything, and she can relax with people in the house. The first incident, involving the “stranger” entering our house, I think was territorial. The next two struck me as fear aggression and possibly that accounted for her jumping the lab too, although I don’t get it since she doesn’t show fear or aggression when she walks past other dogs. She watches them, not exactly relaxed, but not tail tucked or barking. I have done some of what you suggest—place, she’s got that down. I have taken her to Home Depot, we regularly walked around a lake, encountering bikes, dogs, people, scooters, etc. When she was a pup, she initially freaked, having never seen any of these in her life except, of course, at least one person—but possibly only one person. Eventually she was fine with all of it. But for the first: months I had her, she wanted nothing to do with people. Now she will approach our guests and allow them to pet her. I’ve had as many as fifteen people visiting and (after being crated for twenty minutes) she was fine with it although toward the end of the evening I crated her because I could see she was getting tired and over-stimulated. My husband and I are older and sheltering from Covid in a remote cabin so very few opportunities to bring people in, but, as I say, she did fine with the people we had a glass of wine with a week ago. And she will sit or lie next to me on command. She is great with “settle”—does so quickly even when agitated. I have not done any heeling with her though and I think I need to start. Finally, recently a worker came to deliver propane. She started barking as did the other two. I told them all to stop and they did. I went out and spoke to the man—no barking, no aggression—in fact, she lay down and went to sleep. So I don’t know. Maybe she’s out-growing some of this. But I can’t reciprocate the invitation from the lab owners because they would want to bring their dog and I know Sparkle would be a pain in the derrièr. Anyway, thank you for the time you have taken with my issues. I know it’s difficult to diagnose an unseen dog, especially when you can’t get a handle on how much or how little the owner understands.


Glad you have this all figured out.

Why was it you came here asking questions? Because your dog was biting people?


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

I do not have it all figured out. Yes, I came because she’s a more complicated dog than any I have owned. I do know a fair amount about dogs but I don’t get her totally and I hoped, as I have, to get some insight from people with more experience with working line shepherds.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Do you have a club or balanced trainer around that you can work with?


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

I don’t and right now, with Covid, no one in California would work in person with me anyway. I have worked briefly with three different trainers in the past—lots of money spent. I do think I need to get off my butt and work with Sparkle on heeling. We haven’t done that, although I taught all my other dogs to heel.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> I think you are right about socialization being the primary issue, exacerbated by a lower threshold than would be desirable. But she’s not a classically (or maybe I mean hereditarily) fearful dog in that she doesn’t cower or run away from anything, and she can relax with people in the house. The first incident, involving the “stranger” entering our house, I think was territorial. The next two struck me as fear aggression and possibly that accounted for her jumping the lab too, although I don’t get it since she doesn’t show fear or aggression when she walks past other dogs. She watches them, not exactly relaxed, but not tail tucked or barking. I have done some of what you suggest—place, she’s got that down. I have taken her to Home Depot, we regularly walked around a lake, encountering bikes, dogs, people, scooters, etc. When she was a pup, she initially freaked, having never seen any of these in her life except, of course, at least one person—but possibly only one person. Eventually she was fine with all of it. But for the first: months I had her, she wanted nothing to do with people. Now she will approach our guests and allow them to pet her. I’ve had as many as fifteen people visiting and (after being crated for twenty minutes) she was fine with it although toward the end of the evening I crated her because I could see she was getting tired and over-stimulated. My husband and I are older and sheltering from Covid in a remote cabin so very few opportunities to bring people in, but, as I say, she did fine with the people we had a glass of wine with a week ago. And she will sit or lie next to me on command. She is great with “settle”—does so quickly even when agitated. I have not done any heeling with her though and I think I need to start. Finally, recently a worker came to deliver propane. She started barking as did the other two. I told them all to stop and they did. I went out and spoke to the man—no barking, no aggression—in fact, she lay down and went to sleep. So I don’t know. Maybe she’s out-growing some of this. But I can’t reciprocate the invitation from the lab owners because they would want to bring their dog and I know Sparkle would be a pain in the derrièr. Anyway, thank you for the time you have taken with my issues. I know it’s difficult to diagnose an unseen dog, especially when you can’t get a handle on how much or how little the owner understands.


If you are satisfied with were you are at then carry on. What area of California are you in? I know very accomplished trainers, not just in german shepherds but all dogs, across California. They are working with clients in person.


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

We live in Oakland but are currently and for the foreseeable future living in an isolated cabin in Mendocino County. I would be grateful for any advice on trainers in either area, although as I said I doubt they can work with us,until the Covid crisis passes.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

If she hasn't had much interaction with people, wouldn't introducing people in a positive manner (ie, have them give her treats) tend to associate them with good things?


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks. She does okay with people outside our house and after she settles down for ten or fifteen minutes in her crate when they visit us. I think I have a handle on how to control her with people. For one thing, I will take her leash from now on because my DH doesn’t read dogs. I would’ve known she was hostile to the workman or the woman and would’ve walked her around them until she settled before going back. And she’s very bonded to him so perhaps it was either resource guarding or protecting—the woman kept coming at him when he was saying “no, no”. And, yes, you are right that it would be good to keep exposing her to people on our property where she tends to be territorial, but with Covid that’s not possible. I guess my main concerns are (1) getting her to respect us as “deciders” when people come to the house—she is quite frightening although not a large GSD—60 pounds—and (2) trying to figure out why she jumped a sweet lab pup that was doing nothing unreasonable, not even being hyper. Here’s a photo of the “monster“


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> We live in Oakland but are currently and for the foreseeable future living in an isolated cabin in Mendocino County. I would be grateful for any advice on trainers in either area, although as I said I doubt they can work with us,until the Covid crisis passes.


koru k9 is very good choice. About 1.5 hours away is Joel Monroe. Jon Riboni is within 2 hours as well


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Thank you. I had a trainer from Koru K9. I had hoped they would take her for board and train but he said she wasn’t a candidate in his opinion. He gave me a few tips but didn’t even think he needed to come back. Within fifteen minutes of his arrival, she was sniffing his pants and checking him out, having initially been sent to “place“ as she grumbled and growled. Having written so much, I think I am a bit clearer on the problem with Sparkle. As he observed, she is a bit fearful but not over the top fearful. However, while I actually feel I can handle her with people—she seems to be learning they aren’t the dreadful animals she thought—I would like to be more confident of her behavior with visiting dogs and also to feel safer about her around people. I have never owned a dog I thought might bite someone. Your suggestion that I spend time on heeling, I think, will help. I guess what I feel less confident about is my DH who indulges her and resents any effort to rope him into dog training. He eventually agrees to do much what I ask, most of the time. I am uncertain that I can effect a real change without having him 100% on board, especially since he is her favorite person.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

gslover60 said:


> We live in Oakland but are currently and for the foreseeable future living in an isolated cabin in Mendocino County. I would be grateful for any advice on trainers in either area, although as I said I doubt they can work with us,until the Covid crisis passes.


PM me when you get home, i have a contact for you in Castro Valley.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> Thank you. I had a trainer from Koru K9. I had hoped they would take her for board and train but he said she wasn’t a candidate in his opinion. He gave me a few tips but didn’t even think he needed to come back. Within fifteen minutes of his arrival, she was sniffing his pants and checking him out, having initially been sent to “place“ as she grumbled and growled. Having written so much, I think I am a bit clearer on the problem with Sparkle. As he observed, she is a bit fearful but not over the top fearful. However, while I actually feel I can handle her with people—she seems to be learning they aren’t the dreadful animals she thought—I would like to be more confident of her behavior with visiting dogs and also to feel safer about her around people. I have never owned a dog I thought might bite someone. Your suggestion that I spend time on heeling, I think, will help. I guess what I feel less confident about is my DH who indulges her and resents any effort to rope him into dog training. He eventually agrees to do much what I ask, most of the time. I am uncertain that I can effect a real change without having him 100% on board, especially since he is her favorite person.


Was that before you started having bites?


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Bearshandler said:


> Was that before you started having bites?


No. At that point, she had bitten the guy who entered the house and tore the pants on the Workman. Frankly, I was panicked, never having had a dog bite anyone she was not supposed to bite. I wanted Koru-9 to board and train her. But he said she wasn’t a candidate in his opinion.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> No. At that point, she had bitten the guy who entered the house and tore the pants on the Workman. Frankly, I was panicked, never having had a dog bite anyone she was not supposed to bite. I wanted Koru-9 to board and train her. But he said she wasn’t a candidate in his opinion.


What advice did he give you?


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## gslover60 (Apr 8, 2011)

Bearshandler said:


> What advice did he give you?


He seconded some other advice, such as working on place, something I had let slide (yeah, stupid), showed me the doorbell exercise, encouraged me to work on heeling (again, let it slide—lots going on but no excuse), and urged me to find a mental challenge for her. I signed her up for nosework but she didn’t have any real interest and it seems to me her nose is at the low end of average anyway. I worked on “place” and the doorbell, but not the heeling as my husband walks her—so I told myself.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

gslover60 said:


> He seconded some other advice, such as working on place, something I had let slide (yeah, stupid), showed me the doorbell exercise, encouraged me to work on heeling (again, let it slide—lots going on but no excuse), and urged me to find a mental challenge for her. I signed her up for nosework but she didn’t have any real interest and it seems to me her nose is at the low end of average anyway. I worked on “place” and the doorbell, but not the heeling as my husband walks her—so I told myself.


I guess i don't really have anything else to add.


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