# Puppy won't latch onto nipple...



## Akatruly_

My next door neighbor who happens to be one of my best friends was expecting a litter of puppies, but had a family emergency and because of this I took her dog in for about 2 weeks max. Yesterday she gave birth to 6 beautiful puppies (5 males and 1 female), and about 6-7 hours later, she gave birth to two more (1 male, 1 female)! All baby's are perfectly healthy, except for the baby girl that was born with the first half. She cannot find the mommas nipple even when I guide her to it. I even tried to open her mouth a bit and help her latch on, but still no luck. I also read on a few websites to squeeze a little bit of the moms milk and then try, and still again.. no luck. Yesterday I bought puppy formula and started bottle feeding, but it's quite difficult with her. I have to forcefully shove the nipple in her mouth and then squeeze the bottle a few times and she then will start to suck, but not for too long (Maybe a min or 2). I have to keep repeating this process. I bottle fed another GSD puppy in the past, and she was not as difficult. Is this behavior common? Should I be concerned, or will she eventually learn? I will keep bottle feeding her until I feel she is able to get milk on her own from mom.

Another side *non-important* question.

All the babies are so beautiful! I never witnessed a puppy birth or even seen so many newborn puppies all together. It's quite adorable. My question is that the babies are all black, but some have white spots on their chest and a little on paws. Do these markings stay, or do they go away as they get older?


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## Deb

Do a google search on sponge feeding newborn puppies. It's much easier than bottle or tube feeding and more natural. Hopefully once you get her sucking on the sponge she might do better with mom.


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## Akatruly_

Deb said:


> Do a google search on sponge feeding newborn puppies. It's much easier than bottle or tube feeding and more natural. Hopefully once you get her sucking on the sponge she might do better with mom.


Okay thank you, I will go look into it right now!


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## wolfy dog

Are they GSDs? Just in case they are a short nose breed who can have trouble nursing.


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## carmspack

there is no way around saying this but the prospects for the pup just do not look good.

it is so important for the pup to be able to nurse right from the beginning to get the precious immune factors in the colostrum - the early serum before milk.

does the pup have a different cry from the others.

are there signs that the pup has diarrhea -- the rear end wet ? 
dehydration is serious . You may want to have some Lactated Ringers available to replace electrolytes.

is the mother rejecting the pup - does she nose it away ?

in your effort to feed the pup - tubing being the best BUT needs great care so that you aren't to aggressive
in insertion , or too anxious and feed too much .
you don't want the catheter to go into the lungs and you don't want it to pierce the stomach.

temperature is so important -- the pups can not regulate their body temperature .
when too cool or drafty the pup will suffer 
conversely too warm - the pup will have problems

the pup should be handled to help with body functions , and moved from side to side so that it doesn't flatten out 

the pup may move away to some section of the whelping pen - be found in the morning , chilled and gasping -- or the mother may reject it and push it away -- there is little that you can do 

you don't know what the internal situation is 

do your best to jump start the pup -- super human efforts usually don't pay off --- or you may have a live pup with terrible health problems --- sometimes it is best for nature to take its course.

breeding is not easy


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## Akatruly_

wolfy dog said:


> Are they GSDs? Just in case they are a short nose breed who can have trouble nursing.


Yes they are GSDs.



carmspack said:


> there is no way around saying this but the prospects for the pup just do not look good.
> 
> it is so important for the pup to be able to nurse right from the beginning to get the precious immune factors in the colostrum - the early serum before milk.
> 
> does the pup have a different cry from the others.
> 
> are there signs that the pup has diarrhea -- the rear end wet ?
> dehydration is serious . You may want to have some Lactated Ringers available to replace electrolytes.
> 
> is the mother rejecting the pup - does she nose it away ?
> 
> in your effort to feed the pup - tubing being the best BUT needs great care so that you aren't to aggressive
> in insertion , or too anxious and feed too much .
> you don't want the catheter to go into the lungs and you don't want it to pierce the stomach.
> 
> temperature is so important -- the pups can not regulate their body temperature .
> when too cool or drafty the pup will suffer
> conversely too warm - the pup will have problems
> 
> the pup should be handled to help with body functions , and moved from side to side so that it doesn't flatten out
> 
> the pup may move away to some section of the whelping pen - be found in the morning , chilled and gasping -- or the mother may reject it and push it away -- there is little that you can do
> 
> you don't know what the internal situation is
> 
> do your best to jump start the pup -- super human efforts usually don't pay off --- or you may have a live pup with terrible health problems --- sometimes it is best for nature to take its course.
> 
> breeding is not easy


This pup acts just like he rest of the pups. The only difference is no matter how many attempts, she cannot find the nipple. No diarrhea. she's always in the correct temp, I only remove her from her mother for feeding. The mother has not rejected her and cares or her just as she does with all her other babies. Also I understand the risks, but there's no way I can let nature take it's course. :crying:


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## Deb

I had a beautiful pup like this. I tube fed it and it survived, though sometimes I don't know how as I was teaching full time. But as beautiful as she turned out, I placed her in a pet home, I wouldn't breed her and wouldn't allow her to be bred. Something is wrong even if they grow up looking normal. The pup lived a good long healthy spayed life as a pet, active until she was 15. Make sure you mark this puppy if she starts to nurse on her own so the owner can know which one it is, especially if there are more marked just like her. It's easy to confuse pups as they grow if you don't mark them with collars or nail polish or something.


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## Bramble

Have you looked inside her mouth to check for any sort of deformity that may be preventing her from nursing normally?


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## wolfy dog

Can you talk to the owner of the litter and see what they recommend? Is there an agreement that you have something like "power of attorney"?
I personally would let nature take its course, no matter how hard it is, or have the pup PTS at the vet. It may not be a structural issue, maybe brain damage?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Akatruly_ said:


> Yes they are GSDs.
> 
> 
> 
> This pup acts just like he rest of the pups. The only difference is no matter how many attempts, she cannot find the nipple. No diarrhea. she's always in the correct temp, I only remove her from her mother for feeding. The mother has not rejected her and cares or her just as she does with all her other babies. Also I understand the risks, but there's no way I can let nature take it's course. :crying:


How is the pup doing today?


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## carmspack

" Also I understand the risks, but there's no way I can let nature take it's course"

That is all well and good ---- no one has said don't give it a try , help where you can ---- BUT -- a pup that can't latch on has something wrong with it --- think fading pup --- might have a heart problem , might have cleft palate, might have bacterial infection - The pup might have aspirated amniotic fluid during birthing and have problems with her lungs (infection) . The pup may have been deprived of oxygen.

Nature WILL take it's course, just a matter of when and how. In the "olde" days this pup would have been culled (after having been given the best chance) . You can try , no one is saying don't - but there are so many things that come into play.

Every breeder experiences something similar at some point. Not easy.


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## Sabis mom

I love Shadow. I can't imagine life without her.

But there are moments when I wonder if I did her a great disservice.
I know from repeated experience that to step back and let it go is heart wrenching. But sometimes you need to look past emotion and see. Generally pups that aren't thriving have a problem. You may not see it until adulthood. You may never see. But any pup I have ever had to interfer with, if they made it, had something wrong.
Mother Nature has never been proven wrong.


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## Akatruly_

Thank you everyone who commented on this thread! Today as I was bottle feeding, I noticed that she was willingly opening her mouth, and not only that when I would put my finger next to her mouth she would try to suckle on it. I'm assuming this is a good sign? She is drinking pretty well on a bottle now (longer duration of time), but now I have a new concern. When I helped her go potty, it was almost yellow-seedy like poop. What does this mean? Not only that, I believe she is a bit dehydrated. When I pull her skin up a little, it falls in place pretty slow. I know this is because of the lack of milk, but because she's drinking much better will she get better with just the milk on her own, or is there something else besides the milk that I will need to provide? She is currently on Esbilac puppy milk replacer.


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## carmspack

poop colour sounds normal --- 

try to get her onto the teat -- 

how many pups are there?

when the others have spent the energy to get the milk let-down reflex active find a spare teat to put her on .

do not dislodge a vigorous pup and jeopardize his/her health

you know when it is happening -- pups tend to get onto their sternum , paws kneading and tails going stiff and vibrating 

hand her over to the mom-dog for potty and urination


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## Akatruly_

Sabis mom said:


> I love Shadow. I can't imagine life without her.
> 
> But there are moments when I wonder if I did her a great disservice.
> I know from repeated experience that to step back and let it go is heart wrenching. But sometimes you need to look past emotion and see. Generally pups that aren't thriving have a problem. You may not see it until adulthood. You may never see. But any pup I have ever had to interfer with, if they made it, had something wrong.
> Mother Nature has never been proven wrong.


Does Shadow suffer from anything?


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## Akatruly_

carmspack said:


> poop colour sounds normal ---
> 
> try to get her onto the teat --
> 
> how many pups are there?
> 
> when the others have spent the energy to get the milk let-down reflex active find a spare teat to put her on .
> 
> do not dislodge a vigorous pup and jeopardize his/her health
> 
> you know when it is happening -- pups tend to get onto their sternum , paws kneading and tails going stiff and vibrating
> 
> hand her over to the mom-dog for potty and urination


There are a total of 8 pups. And okay I will try to latch her on again!


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## wolfy dog

Isn't there a breeder in your area who can help you figure out what is wrong? Many areas have kennel clubs where breeders are members. What about the owner of the litter? Is he/she in the picture? Seems weird that you don't mention that.


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## Deb

I would encourage her every time to nurse from mom and try to have mom cleaning her bum.


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## Akatruly_

wolfy dog said:


> Isn't there a breeder in your area who can help you figure out what is wrong? Many areas have kennel clubs where breeders are members. What about the owner of the litter? Is he/she in the picture? Seems weird that you don't mention that.


A while back I made a thread called "choosing a puppy," and that is where I wrote a little about the owner of the litter.. I will put that in red.

The owner of the female had a sudden family emergency and could not take the dog with. Due to this, I took her in. I also own a 6 year old female GSD, but because I took in a pregnant female, she is currently at a close family members house until the current owner comes back. The owners should be back within two weeks. 

The only thing that concerns me of the puppy now is dehydration. She is now drinking from the bottle so I'm hoping she will feel better. I tried to get her back to her momma, but she is still quite weak to get past her siblings. 

If you have any Bi-color puppy or adult dog pics, please don't be shy to share <3 
Hi everyone! I posted a somewhat similar topic before that I had out of curiosity, but only got one reply so I didn’t really get my questions answered. 

I have a friend who will be breeding his black and tan female GSD with his Bi- Color male GSD. I will add that he is not a professional breeder, but is well prepared and cares for his dogs dearly. He made sure to get them tested for things such as their hips and elbows, their eyes and a few other stuff he mentioned that I cannot recall (because I’m no prof either), but I have no problem asking him if anyone else has other important test that need to be done. He loves his dogs dearly and would not breed them, they were not fit to do so. 

If I was able to afford from a prof breeder, I would in an instant, but sadly I am not able to do so (I do keep a savings for my dogs in case of an emergency). Due to him being such a dear friend he will be giving me a puppy. I’ve had 3 German Shepherds in the past and they were my world. I have one old female now and want to add an addition. All my life I’ve always wanted a Bi-Color GSD. I know when looking for a pup, the color should be the last thing on a person's mind, but what’s wrong with finding a puppy that you love coat wise and personality wise? Due to the sire being a Bi-Color, I am hoping that one of the puppies will be bi-color as well. He told me that he will allow me to have the first pick of the litter, but with that being said at what age of the pup is one able to tell that the puppy is a Bi-Color (if she has any at all)? With that being said, if the Bi-color pup does not seem like a fit for me temperament wise, I will not choose it no matter what kind of coat it has.


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## LuvShepherds

Yes, where is the owner and why aren't they helping you by phone? That is too much responsibility.


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## Akatruly_

Deb said:


> I would encourage her every time to nurse from mom and try to have mom cleaning her bum.


I agree with you 100%, but it is a bit difficult for her to nurse from her mom right now so I'm hoping within a few days she will gain her strength to do so. Also thank you, I will let her mom take care of the cleaning part.


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## Akatruly_

LuvShepherds said:


> Yes, where is the owner and why aren't they helping you by phone? That is too much responsibility.


I have spoken to the owner, and we both agreed on bottle feeding for a few days. In all honestly, the owners first response was to let nature take it's course, just like a few others here. She said that there's probably something wrong with the pup, but I just couldn't get myself to do that so I guess I put this on myself. I don't regret it either. I just want some tips or tricks on how to help this baby. Is there anything I can do to help slight dehydration WITHOUT milk from mom?


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## Deb

You want to try to have her nurse each time before you supplement. And make sure mom is cleaning her bum, that you see mom doing it. It's better for mom to do it. If she is dehydrating then you need to bring her to a vet. It might be a good idea for her to be seen by a vet to see if your vet sees any reason why she's not nursing on her own. The vet can also tell you how much and how often you should be supplementing.


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## selzer

She needs the colostrum. If you can't get her on the nipple, and back with her mom, and after 24 hours or so, I think you might need to find colostrum at a reproductive vet, because, it effects their immune system, some think for life.


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## Akatruly_

selzer said:


> She needs the colostrum. If you can't get her on the nipple, and back with her mom, and after 24 hours or so, I think you might need to find colostrum at a reproductive vet, because, it effects their immune system, some think for life.





Deb said:


> You want to try to have her nurse each time before you supplement. And make sure mom is cleaning her bum, that you see mom doing it. It's better for mom to do it. If she is dehydrating then you need to bring her to a vet. It might be a good idea for her to be seen by a vet to see if your vet sees any reason why she's not nursing on her own. The vet can also tell you how much and how often you should be supplementing.


Thank you guys! I will definitely try to get her in and will look into getting colostrum for her. As for now, I have been researching and saw that many people recommended unflavored pedialyte for the dehydration. Will it be safe to add a little bit in her milk?


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## Akatruly_

Deb said:


> You want to try to have her nurse each time before you supplement. And make sure mom is cleaning her bum, that you see mom doing it. It's better for mom to do it. If she is dehydrating then you need to bring her to a vet. It might be a good idea for her to be seen by a vet to see if your vet sees any reason why she's not nursing on her own. The vet can also tell you how much and how often you should be supplementing.


Juts out of curiosity, why is it better for mom to clean the bum?


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## carmspack

Juts out of curiosity, why is it better for mom to clean the bum?

answer - because her vigorous tongue action goes beyond sanitation of the "bum" . She gives gentle massage to the stomach area helping digestion, passing of stool , and emptying the bladder. Her saliva has enzymes which are anti-bacterial .


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## Akatruly_

carmspack said:


> Juts out of curiosity, why is it better for mom to clean the bum?
> 
> answer - because her vigorous tongue action goes beyond sanitation of the "bum" . She gives gentle massage to the stomach area helping digestion, passing of stool , and emptying the bladder. Her saliva has enzymes which are anti-bacterial .



Alright perfect! Right after feeding, I put her next to her mom and she licked her up. 


If anyone knows if a tiny bit unflavored Pedialyte would be okay that would be awesome!


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## Deb

Akatruly_ said:


> Alright perfect! Right after feeding, I put her next to her mom and she licked her up.
> 
> 
> If anyone knows if a tiny bit unflavored Pedialyte would be okay that would be awesome!



A vet can give her subcutaneous fluids, a lactated ringer for the dehydration. If you wait too long trying other methods you could lose her. If she is dehydrating I would take her to the vet.


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## selzer

Deb said:


> A vet can give her subcutaneous fluids, a lactated ringer for the dehydration. If you wait too long trying other methods you could lose her. If she is dehydrating I would take her to the vet.


Subcutaneous fluids is putting fluids up under the skin, which supposedly hydrates the puppy. According to Dr. Hutchison, not so. He says we all do it, but it actually doesn't work and will cause the puppy to become chilled all the faster. With a pup that needs help, tube feeding is the way to go. You cannot get enough in them with a bottle if they are too weak to suck. Also a pet bottle really doesn't work, use a baby bottle and put a needle in the nipple to make the hole larger. Still a weak puppy will not get enough nutrition that way. 

You have to measure the needed nutrition and put it in when the puppy is empty and yet warm enough to digest -- don't trust your hands, take the temp rectally. Then put the warm (not hot) canine mild replacement into a syringe. With another syringe with water connected to your tube, measure outside the puppy, from the nose basically to the stomach. The pup does not have a gag reflex yet, so make a mark on the tube and feed it down there letting the puppy swallow it down up to your mark. Then put a little water in, that will let you know if you screwed up and went down the wrong tube. Hopefully you will be ok, and you can start the milk replacer. Then the puppy is full. 

I measure (weigh) the puppy empty, and measure the puppy full. Should be about 2 ounces gained, but by the next feeding the pup will have lost some, if not, the puppy might be sucking. If the pup has gained at all, I would wait before feeding at all -- much better to be feeding from mom. 8 puppies is not too many for her to manage to feed all of them. 

Generally, I weigh puppies twice a day. That first day they either maintain or lose a little, that is normal. After that first day, they should be starting to gain. 

If the whelping area is too warm, it will dehydrate the puppies and kill them. If it is 80-90 degrees the water in them is going to go down. Much better to turn off external heating sources and bump room temperature up a few degrees, and mom will keep the puppies warm. If they are laying in a pile (normal), they are keeping each other warm, and staying near on mom. If they are spread out, they are warm and they cannot regulate the heat. 

What happens is that the puppies draw away from the group or heat sources and fall asleep. Then they become dehydrated and too weak to come back to the heat sources when the temperature drops. So the pup becomes chilled due to external heat sources drying them out. 

Have you checked for cleft palet? The pup will give up on sucking because it is impossible for them to get enough in with a cleft palet.

Tube feeding is the way to go, if the pup is ok but otherwise not getting nutrition. Ask your vet, they can set you up with the proper tubes/syringes and teach/show you how. 

Good luck.


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## wolfy dog

Just for the business part here.Have you discussed with the owner who is respsonsible for the vet fees? This will add up quickly and you very well can end up without a live pup.


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## selzer

wolfy dog said:


> Just for the business part here.Have you discussed with the owner who is respsonsible for the vet fees? This will add up quickly and you very well can end up without a live pup.


It isn't all that expensive. They've put my pups in an incubator, warmed and fed them and gave me tube feeding stuff, did subcutaneous fluids and such. 

The problem is many vets do not have the experience with neo-natal puppies anymore. They will do things like warm a day old pup to 100 degrees and give antibiotics just because the pup has been stressed, and without giving a pro-biotic at the same time. You almost have to know enough to know when they are making mistakes. Or take the pup to a specialist, which, believe it or not, really doesn't cost any more than your ordinary vet. Dr. Hutchison is no more expensive than my vet 4 miles away from me -- he is 2 hours away. And, you end up with living puppies, as often as not. If I stuck with my vet, Moofie and Banshee would be dead now. 

This pup is at a critical stage. If she makes it through tonight, I'd say her chances of survival are a little better than not. If you have a clinic with a reproductive specialist, take the puppy to him. Otherwise, I certainly hope that your regular vet has the experience and knowledge to help this baby.


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## Akatruly_

selzer said:


> It isn't all that expensive. They've put my pups in an incubator, warmed and fed them and gave me tube feeding stuff, did subcutaneous fluids and such.
> 
> The problem is many vets do not have the experience with neo-natal puppies anymore. They will do things like warm a day old pup to 100 degrees and give antibiotics just because the pup has been stressed, and without giving a pro-biotic at the same time. You almost have to know enough to know when they are making mistakes. Or take the pup to a specialist, which, believe it or not, really doesn't cost any more than your ordinary vet. Dr. Hutchison is no more expensive than my vet 4 miles away from me -- he is 2 hours away. And, you end up with living puppies, as often as not. If I stuck with my vet, Moofie and Banshee would be dead now.
> 
> This pup is at a critical stage. If she makes it through tonight, I'd say her chances of survival are a little better than not. If you have a clinic with a reproductive specialist, take the puppy to him. Otherwise, I certainly hope that your regular vet has the experience and knowledge to help this baby.





wolfy dog said:


> Just for the business part here.Have you discussed with the owner who is respsonsible for the vet fees? This will add up quickly and you very well can end up without a live pup.


I took the pup to the vet this morning urgently because she scared me when she became stiff as a rock. I took her to the vet and he gave her a bit of dewormer (I told him she had a little blood in her poop, but thankfully this has stopped), some sort of liquid I believe which contains sugar, and also fluids under her skin for dehydration. He only charged me for the fluid which came up to 30 dollars. I learned that I was feeding he way to less, and was told to feed 10 ml every 2-3 hours (is this correct?). I was also told to add 2ml of pedialytein in her milk. About 8 hours later she became stiff as a rock again and I learned that she is hypoglycemic after googling her symptoms. I mean it makes sense, I was feeding her less than I should have been. I ran to the grocery store because online it says get kyro syrup or maple syrup so I grabbed 100% pure maple syrup to rub on her gums and in her mouth. Not only that, about 30 mins ago she had her mouth open and seemed as if she was having trouble breathing so I grabbed a baby suction thing and was trying to suction mucus out her mouth (got this from online). I'm only a 19 year old college student and this is honestly scaring the crap out of me. I'm too afraid now to even feed her because I'm afraid of her breathing problems. I can't take her to a emergency vet because of where I'm located. Idk what to do. 

Here's a list of what I have describe:



hypoglycemic- Seizures (Bough maple syrup)
Will this help improve it? 

Dehydrated (Got fluid under skin and 2ml of pedialyte)

Trouble breathing at times:

Suctioning out mucus (if any, idk what's wrong) 


Please be honest, tell me what the future looks like,

I feel as if I can get the dehydration and seizures under control (?), but I don't know what to do about the breathing. I need help. Any advice please? 

I have classes in the morning, but I will be up all night keeping an eye on her.


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## Akatruly_

Is a slight open mouth okay?


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## Akatruly_

She just had another seizure where she became stiff as a rock so I put more male syrup in her mouth. Before I just lightly rubbed it around, this time I put a good amount on her tongue. I know this is because of not enough feeding, so when can I start feeding right after a seizure? She is very weak so should I slowly put drops in her mouth?

I'm sorry I know t his is a lot to ask, but I don't have another option.


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## MineAreWorkingline

When was the last time you fed her?


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## Akatruly_

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When was the last time you fed her?


That would be 2 hours ago. I want to feed her, but her seizures are scaring me. Also like I stated her breathing problems. Currently her mouth is closed,she's laying on her side, and occasionally makes small sounds. Very weak looking.


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## gsdsar

Jimminy crickets. 

She is hypoglycemic because you aren't feeding her enough. Or frequently enough. The pup needs to eat. 

Hypoglycemia is going to sap everything out of the puppy. She needs actual nutrition not just syrup. It will bring her blood glucose up, but only for a short while. She needs the actual food. 

You need help. Serious help. Can you call anyone, the local kennel club? A performance club? This is way too much for you to be dealing with.


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## wolfy dog

I don't think this pup will live. Maybe let her be in the comfort of her mom and not forcing anything on her.


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## Deb

Akatruly_, if you lose this puppy please understand it isn't anything you did or didn't do. It happens to the best of breeders. It sounds like there is already something wrong with this puppy, it could be anything from an under developed liver to a congenital heart fault. You have given 110% of what anyone could be asked to do. Thank you for caring so much for this little puppy. Hugs!


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## Akatruly_

Deb said:


> Akatruly_, if you lose this puppy please understand it isn't anything you did or didn't do. It happens to the best of breeders. It sounds like there is already something wrong with this puppy, it could be anything from an under developed liver to a congenital heart fault. You have given 110% of what anyone could be asked to do. Thank you for caring so much for this little puppy. Hugs!


Thank you so much for your kind words. I really needed them <3 



wolfy dog said:


> I don't think this pup will live. Maybe let her be in the comfort of her mom and not forcing anything on her.


To be honest, I'm now starting to agree with you. I can't see her suffer anymore, but she won't give up.



gsdsar said:


> Jimminy crickets.
> 
> She is hypoglycemic because you aren't feeding her enough. Or frequently enough. The pup needs to eat.
> 
> Hypoglycemia is going to sap everything out of the puppy. She needs actual nutrition not just syrup. It will bring her blood glucose up, but only for a short while. She needs the actual food.
> 
> You need help. Serious help. Can you call anyone, the local kennel club? A performance club? This is way too much for you to be dealing with.


I can look into it, but can I supply her with her milk? If I put drops in her mouth and she starts to seize, will she choke on it?


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## gsdsar

Maybe. I don't mean to come off harsh. It just upsets me that you are doing a good deed and getting slammed with something waaaayy over you head. 

You are doing a great job. Some pups just aren't meant to make it.


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## Akatruly_

gsdsar said:


> Maybe. I don't mean to come off harsh. It just upsets me that you are doing a good deed and getting slammed with something waaaayy over you head.
> 
> You are doing a great job. Some pups just aren't meant to make it.


Don't worry, you are not coming off to harsh. I appreciate every responce I got

Just now, she got a random spike of energy (maybe the syrup?) and started to suck on my finger for milk.. Is this a good sign? Or probably won't make a difference.



As I was typing this she had another seizure, so I guess not.


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## carmspack

oh dear.

Mother Nature .

The kindest thing is to give the pup to the mother and as harsh and unfeeling as it sounds, let nature take its course.
The pup is failing .

There was something wrong with the pup right from the start. 
No one's fault . Nothing you could do or have done. 

So much difficulty in trying to give you the facts gently. Breeding is not easy . 
Don't go wild on the mother if you visit her and the pup is gone - physically gone . 

You have to be kind to the mother . You don't want her upset and then her milk will dry and all the other pups
will be affected .

take care of the dam and the vigorous pups.


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## Akatruly_

carmspack said:


> oh dear.
> 
> Mother Nature .
> 
> The kindest thing is to give the pup to the mother and as harsh and unfeeling as it sounds, let nature take its course.
> The pup is failing .
> 
> There was something wrong with the pup right from the start.
> No one's fault . Nothing you could do or have done.
> 
> So much difficulty in trying to give you the facts gently. Breeding is not easy .
> Don't go wild on the mother if you visit her and the pup is gone - physically gone .
> 
> You have to be kind to the mother . You don't want her upset and then her milk will dry and all the other pups
> will be affected .
> 
> take care of the dam and the vigorous pups.



The thing is she's still breathing, she won't give up. I was just now looking into vets and although I thought there wasn't an emergency vet near me, there is one not too far. My family members are however telling me that she's to small and there is nothing they'd be able to do because she wouldn't be able to withstand medicine due to her only being a few days old. Do you agree with this? Should I just give up? It's just so hard to do with seeing her laying in my lap breathing.


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## Sabis mom

You asked about Shadow.
Now I will answer. 
She has poor vision. Poor hearing. Skin issues. Allergies. Weak legs. Weak lungs. An under developed heart and probable brain damage.
She is the sweetest, happiest dog I have ever met. I love her. 
She wouldn't stop breathing so I kept trying.
She is 6. And while I can't say I regret what I did there are moments when I wonder if it was right. 
My heart aches for you.


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## Akatruly_

I finally came to accept that it was too late. I never realized how hard it is to take care of a litter. I mean, I knew it wasn't easy but didn't think too much of it. I always just imagined a dog having perfectly healthy babies that will grow up to be perfectly healthy adults. I now have so much respect for breeders because I don't think I'd ever be able to handle this again. It was definitely an emotional roller-coaster. I cried so many tears over her as I saw her gasping for air, and even then I was still in denial and thought I could save her, until I knew I had to be strong. I put her with her mother hoping that it isn't too painful and that she passes away in peace. I just couldn't look at her suffer anymore. 
I was that one person who used to think that breeding wasn't a privilege that only the top breeders should have, but boy was I wrong. Maybe if she would have been in the hands of a prof she would have made it, or maybe if I fed her just a little more she wouldn't have become hypoglycemic. I have come to the realization that dogs should not be bred, unless they are in the hands of a professional. I would never be able to do this. 
As much as I can wish that when I get up, I'll see her suckling on her mom with her 6 other brother, I know this won't be the case. 

I can only hope that this beautiful angel passes in peace.

I didn't even name her and I can't say a goodbye without a name..

So I'll say goodbye my beautiful Bella.


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## carmspack

if I were there with you or sat beside you the conversation would be so much easier.

putting it into print is difficult ---

this pup was barely holding on right from the start . 

give the pup to her mom dog. There is more comfort with her . The mom dog runs at 101 F , a nice cozy moist heat.
Your lap , your body temp is 98 F -- there probably is an air current which chills the pup.

You aren't giving up, because there is nothing that you can do . Nothing that will result in anything good for the pup . 

This is not your pup , or your absentee breeder's pup . This pup belongs to her mother and to mother nature. 
Medicine can't help. Every time the pup is removed from her whelping pen the chances of viral or bacterial infection increase .

Have a read of this Fading Puppy Syndrome .

Do your best with the rest of the litter .

Make sure to keep the room warm.

Feed the mother for rich and ample milk supply.

sorry


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## Akatruly_

Sabis mom said:


> You asked about Shadow.
> Now I will answer.
> She has poor vision. Poor hearing. Skin issues. Allergies. Weak legs. Weak lungs. An under developed heart and probable brain damage.
> She is the sweetest, happiest dog I have ever met. I love her.
> She wouldn't stop breathing so I kept trying.
> She is 6. And while I can't say I regret what I did there are moments when I wonder if it was right.
> My heart aches for you.


That is so sad. I wish Shadow a long, pain-free and happy life <3 She sounds like an amazing and loved dog! Thank you for commenting this. This is exactly how I felt, she had about 4 seizures in one hour, but she was still breathing which made me think I could still save her, but thanks to everyone on here, including you, I knew I had to be strong for her and let her pass in peace next to her mother.


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## Sabis mom

Akatruly_ said:


> That is so sad. I wish Shadow a long, pain-free and happy life <3 She sounds like an amazing and loved dog! Thank you for commenting this. This is exactly how I felt, she had about 4 seizures in one hour, but she was still breathing which made me think I could still save her, but thanks to everyone on here, including you, I knew I had to be strong for her and let her pass in peace next to her mother.


I know this is hard. Many years in rescue. I have lost more then a few. 
Take comfort that she felt the comfort you offered and know that nature knows best.
I wish you peace.


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## Akatruly_

carmspack said:


> if I were there with you or sat beside you the conversation would be so much easier.
> 
> putting it into print is difficult ---
> 
> this pup was barely holding on right from the start .
> 
> give the pup to her mom dog. There is more comfort with her . The mom dog runs at 101 F , a nice cozy moist heat.
> Your lap , your body temp is 98 F -- there probably is an air current which chills the pup.
> 
> You aren't giving up, because there is nothing that you can do . Nothing that will result in anything good for the pup .
> 
> This is not your pup , or your absentee breeder's pup . This pup belongs to her mother and to mother nature.
> Medicine can't help. Every time the pup is removed from her whelping pen the chances of viral or bacterial infection increase .
> 
> Have a read of this Fading Puppy Syndrome .
> 
> Do your best with the rest of the litter .
> 
> Make sure to keep the room warm.
> 
> Feed the mother for rich and ample milk supply.
> 
> sorry


I completely agree with you, and want to thank you for helping me throughout this tough time. I put her next to her mom about 20 minutes ago. I hope she passed in peace already as I don't ant her to suffer anymore. I'm just too afraid to go look. Again thank you for everything. You were giving me nothing but the cold hard truth and I needed that!


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## Akatruly_

Sabis mom said:


> I know this is hard. Many years in rescue. I have lost more then a few.
> Take comfort that she felt the comfort you offered and know that nature knows best.
> I wish you peace.


Thank you so much! <3


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## Deb

How are you doing?


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## wolfy dog

You are an angel for having taken such good care of this puppy. Please, never second guess yourself. I love that you have given her a name. This is nature in its rawest form. There is a reason dogs get so many pups in a litter because usually only a few survive if left to themselves.
I once raised a litter for the shelter. It was the best but most intense job you could imagine and I admire the breeders who raise all these awesome dogs.
Love the mother and her other pups and enjoy them to the fullest. Your friend owes you big time, at least one of the pups!


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## selzer

The pup seemed to have problems from the beginning. Usually the puppy will crawl away from the dam or the dam will move and the puppy will be left behind and will die, or already be dead. You can wrap it up and let your vet take care of the remains. It is very sad, but you did everything you could. I'm sorry. 

The rest of the litter is fine, and focus on them, weigh them twice a day and keep a chart. I use rick rack to tell who is who. Try to keep an upbeat and happy demeaner for the bitch. She has a big job to do, and she can be weighed down by sadness if you are. Do that for her, as hard as it is, she has 7 other puppies counting on you. 

When are the breeders coming home?


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## MineAreWorkingline

The puppy has passed?


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## Deb

We haven't heard, but as a breeder and from what she described, then I'd say yes. What she went through is hard, you fight as hard as you can, but anyone who has been a breeder will recognize what she was describing. I've shed many tears over puppies I fought for. I can only truly hope I'm wrong.


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## Akatruly_

Deb said:


> How are you doing?


I am doing much better thank you for asking


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## Akatruly_

Deb said:


> We haven't heard, but as a breeder and from what she described, then I'd say yes. What she went through is hard, you fight as hard as you can, but anyone who has been a breeder will recognize what she was describing. I've shed many tears over puppies I fought for. I can only truly hope I'm wrong.


Yes it's extremely hard, and I don't think I'd be able to do it again. I have so much respect for you! Being a breeder is not easy.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> The puppy has passed?


Yes, I checked up on her this morning and she had passed. This morning my brother and I wrapped her up in her soft cozy blanket and had a small little burial for her! 



selzer said:


> The pup seemed to have problems from the beginning. Usually the puppy will crawl away from the dam or the dam will move and the puppy will be left behind and will die, or already be dead. You can wrap it up and let your vet take care of the remains. It is very sad, but you did everything you could. I'm sorry.
> 
> The rest of the litter is fine, and focus on them, weigh them twice a day and keep a chart. I use rick rack to tell who is who. Try to keep an upbeat and happy demeaner for the bitch. She has a big job to do, and she can be weighed down by sadness if you are. Do that for her, as hard as it is, she has 7 other puppies counting on you.
> 
> When are the breeders coming home?


That's exactly how she was. The mother would not move her, but she would crawl away herself. 

I was so paranoid this morning that I sat there softly lifting up their skins to see if they were dehydrated or not, but thankfully they are perfectly healthy babies!
I will definitely take the weighing advise.

The owner will be coming home in a few days. I have been keeping them updated with everything.

Thank you for your words <3


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## Akatruly_

wolfy dog said:


> You are an angel for having taken such good care of this puppy. Please, never second guess yourself. I love that you have given her a name. This is nature in its rawest form. There is a reason dogs get so many pups in a litter because usually only a few survive if left to themselves.
> I once raised a litter for the shelter. It was the best but most intense job you could imagine and I admire the breeders who raise all these awesome dogs.
> Love the mother and her other pups and enjoy them to the fullest. Your friend owes you big time, at least one of the pups!


Thank you so much for these kinds words <3 I always read about raising a litter and I didn't think it would be difficult at all. I knew things go wrong, but I had a mindset of "this won't happen to me." This experience has taught me so much, and honestly I learned many lessons from it. And I will be getting a puppy in fact haha, we agreed to this during the moms early pregnancy! :grin2:


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## carmspack

dogs profoundly affect our lives .

they provide great moments of joy , connect us to the natural world of which we are a part , and provide moments of sadness. 

they reveal to ourselves and others who we are . truly.

find peace .


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## wolfy dog

Akatruly_ said:


> And I will be getting a puppy in fact haha, we agreed to this during the moms early pregnancy! :grin2:


:happyboogie:


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## MineAreWorkingline

Akatruly_ said:


> Yes, I checked up on her this morning and she had passed. This morning my brother and I wrapped her up in her soft cozy blanket and had a small little burial for her!
> 
> 
> Thank you for your words <3


Aww! RIP little one. Don't beat yourself up OP, you did your best. Sometimes that is just the way it goes. No fault of yours.


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