# Is IPO and UD (CKC obedience) training too conflicting for a young dog?



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I'm in the process of finding and bringing home a pup that will suit my desires to title in IPO I and UD, but the more I read into the training the more I put myself in a tizzy. UD is a bit more "relaxed" in that you're allowed to use body gestures to reinforce certain commands, but in the obedience of IPO you are faulted for it. 

Has anyone managed to title in both without damaging the training of the other discipline? I don't want to confuse my dog with learning both English and German commands as a young pup, but the goal is to begin evaluating/training in IPO around 4-5 months and then begin the CKC obedience at 6 months. I absolutely adore how obedience creates a strong working relationship between owner and dog, so the more I can work with my dog the happier I'll be. I'm hoping to do some agility just for fun on the side when the pup is older, too, just to keep things fun and to give some enjoyable mental and physical exercise.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just because a venue allows you to give extra signals doesn't mean you have to. Like, you can talk in rally but not in OB, so if you plan to go on to traditional obedience you can never talk in rally or phase it out to the point you are ready to do regular OB. you can talk in rally but you don't have to.

Sometimes you can go one way and not the other. Like, I am always told if you want to do AKC Tracking and schutzhund tracking, train schutzhund first. Because schutzhund is a different style of tracking and while you could pass AKC tracking with a schutzhund dog in wouldn't go the other way---or I don't know what the disqualifications are in schutzhund it might just be a crappy score, because AKC is pass or fail and they don't fail for air scenting for instance.

So if you train for the more strict venue, you should be able to compete in any of the venues you want.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I've always heard to train for Schutzhund first since it is more demanding. I did do an AKC obedience class as a dog to dog socializing class for my big boy. He was about 18 months at the time. He did well but at the graduation "trial" he lost points because I messed up between the two disciplines. For instance, returning to the dog from a stay, in AKC I was supposed to go around the dog's back to the start position. Not so in IPO / Schutzhund. Ooops, I defaulted to my IPO training.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I was hoping you would chime in! That's good to know. I definitely want to start with the SCHH/IPO side of things because it would be my main focus. But overall I do love obedience myself, so the more I can do it the better as long as it isn't at the expense of my dog become confused and damaging their previous training. 

I just worry about the language difference. The plan is to start out with English so that the average person could make a behavioural request (in-laws, for example), whereas myself or my partner would probably reinforce more German - possibly switching back and forth to test comprehension. I'm just not sure when it's best to introduce the IPO commands, though I'm sure the local club would help with that.


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## melissajancie (Dec 22, 2016)

Hakki started his training in German and then switched over to English when he was 1-1/2 years old. I use both languages on a regular basis.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There is no reason why you can not cross train. Sound training on a sound dog with the right temperament and drives will be able to do both without conflict.  You will need to make some slight changes in each venue, but nothing major that will cause issues with your dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"UD is a bit more "relaxed" in that you're allowed to use body gestures to reinforce certain commands"

oh no it's not - and there are no extra commands or body gestures allowed -- you can use them but you will be docked or fail 

there is more pressure in the CD to UD plus circuit . Everytime I watch a trial it looks like those dogs are going to the chopping block . They look so lifeless and draggy .


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Really? I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction. That's at least what it looked like to me from what I've seen people train here in town and what I've seen online. That's really interesting to know then and I'll keep it in mind. 

Definitely don't want my dog to ever look lifeless and draggy during any training though. Why do you think they get that way in comparison to IPO? 

And I'm glad to hear from you, Lisa, that cross training is possible with a sound dog. Coming into a working line pup, I'm trying not to set myself up for miserable failure the first time around. Would you recommend sticking with just one language, and once the behaviour has a good foundation to start using the other? For example, having them reliably sit without a lure, but then essentially re-teach with the additions language by reintroducing the lure? Or simply place the new language ahead of the previously used one almost like a secondary marker?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you train your dog for IPO and you can do the BH then you will have no problem doing CKC. Many people who train in IPO also title in AKC/CKC


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction

CKC OBEDIENCE TRIAL Rules and Regulations, UTILITY CLASS

signal OR command


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Ahhh, that makes much more sense! I tried reading the information provided by the CKC on it, but that site is a bit easier to digest with its format. Thanks for the resource.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Femfa said:


> Really? I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction. That's at least what it looked like to me from what I've seen people train here in town and what I've seen online. That's really interesting to know then and I'll keep it in mind.
> 
> Definitely don't want my dog to ever look lifeless and draggy during any training though. Why do you think they get that way in comparison to IPO?
> 
> And I'm glad to hear from you, Lisa, that cross training is possible with a sound dog. Coming into a working line pup, I'm trying not to set myself up for miserable failure the first time around. Would you recommend sticking with just one language, and once the behaviour has a good foundation to start using the other? For example, having them reliably sit without a lure, but then essentially re-teach with the additions language by reintroducing the lure? Or simply place the new language ahead of the previously used one almost like a secondary marker?



If your dog is happy and focused it shouldn't look draggy or lifeless at all. Rally skills are easier than IPO skills from what little I have seen but the dogs still like working with you. That's a part of what judges look for. 
I stick with one language for precise actions and another for casual ones. Casual as in "I know it won't be strictly reinforced". An example is the heal command. * Fuss* means "you must be at my left side and looking up at me, no glancing around or moving forward or falling back". *Come Along* or *Come Come* is my loose leash command. It means "you can be-bop around so long as you aren't dragging me by the leash". *Here *means run to me and sit down facing me until released. * Home* means run to the door of the house, straight and fast or willy-nilly, just get to the door. When I did some AKC work I used the German command words. 

Commands like *No Feeding the Dogs Out of the Fridge* are for my hubby.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

That's a great way to put it, car2ner. I think I'll try to focus on using the German commands for the serious aspects of training, and probably use English and loose interpretations for casual training. Maybe start with the German commands to make it easier to transition into IPO so there's a language familiarity, but only use it when we're doing short, focused training. When we're having fun and just casually interacting I'll use English. 

I'm definitely over thinking things, but I'm terribly excited and I like to have some form of game plan. It's also probably a bad habit from all of the lesson planning from teaching too, haha.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I spent many a weekend in clammy arenas doing ring steward and matches - thinking maybe of getting a judges certificate .

fuss and heel mean the same thing -- on the left in unison with the handler.

I wouldn't use come along or come come -- keep that for one thing COME - smartly and directly return to me and present yourself in front till I give you another command.

for casual walks I say - let's go !


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

That's a really good point that I completely overlooked.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

For my dogs fuss and heel are not the same to them. I have different criteria and there is no confusion for the dogs. In addition, I never use the word "come" in formal obedience, but use plenty of variations of that to mean "come and stop near me." It is all in how you train and what works best for you and your dog. No one way is right. I find the dual commands (obedience vs casual) work best for me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I never use the word "come" in formal obedience, 


why not?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

carmspack said:


> I never use the word "come" in formal obedience,
> 
> 
> why not?



I use "here" instead.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Femfa said:


> That's a great way to put it, car2ner. I think I'll try to focus on using the German commands for the serious aspects of training, and probably use English and loose interpretations for casual training. Maybe start with the German commands to make it easier to transition into IPO so there's a language familiarity, but only use it when we're doing short, focused training. When we're having fun and just casually interacting I'll use English.
> 
> I'm definitely over thinking things, but I'm terribly excited and I like to have some form of game plan. It's also probably a bad habit from all of the lesson planning from teaching too, haha.


Actually have a plan is an excellent thing. More of use should do that. When I am training I try to focus on three skills. I often play music and work on one skill throughout a song. That is how I personally keep from over working or under working a skill. And if the song is upbeat it helps my attitude which in turn helps my dogs. Then if we have more time and energy I might throw in another skill. 

As far as using "come come" or "come along" the casual command is *come*. I just get sing-songy when playing around on neighborhood or forest walks. And if I am truly goofing around it is "kommst Sie her" which I am sure is really grammatically incorrect. The dogs don't care. The important thing is to not talk to the dogs unless you want their attention. Then you can say, "whatcha doing big head" and they'll turn to look at you.

If I need an instant no nonsense return to front I use the German here. Accent on the first E, held a bit longer.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

for the obedience ring, it doesn't matter if you give the commands in Klingon as long as it's a single word or gesture. You can use german in the obedience ring and no one will think twice.

I use "front" for obedience. I use "here" for come back toward me when off-leash walking


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

car2ner said:


> Actually have a plan is an excellent thing. More of use should do that. When I am training I try to focus on three skills. I often play music and work on one skill throughout a song. That is how I personally keep from over working or under working a skill. And if the song is upbeat it helps my attitude which in turn helps my dogs. Then if we have more time and energy I might throw in another skill.
> 
> As far as using "come come" or "come along" the casual command is *come*. I just get sing-songy when playing around on neighborhood or forest walks. And if I am truly goofing around it is "kommst Sie her" which I am sure is really grammatically incorrect. The dogs don't care. The important thing is to not talk to the dogs unless you want their attention. Then you can say, "whatcha doing big head" and they'll turn to look at you.
> 
> If I need an instant no nonsense return to front I use the German here. Accent on the first E, held a bit longer.



oh okay , as long as they mach schnell. lol


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> for the obedience ring, it doesn't matter if you give the commands in Klingon as long as it's a single word or gesture. You can use german in the obedience ring and no one will think twice.
> 
> I use "front" for obedience. I use "here" for come back toward me when off-leash walking


ooOOh I want to see a video of someone using Klingon in sport obedience.
https://ufplanets.com/showthread.php?54673-How-To-Train-your-Dog-in-Klingon


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

For basic training I select and use one word commands. I happen to use both English and German. It's your job to know the rules of the competition. Don't spoil your dog's performance by incorrect commands and unnecessary motions. 
We will only compete in Rally then only when my dog and I can perform at the expert level. I like to train for the final result so initial training takes a bit longer. It gives you the ability to shape the dog and get the all important bond.

We go for daily walks regardless of weather. It's very hot (for us) now so heat tempers the times to early morning and just before dark. My dog goes to work with me as well as cruising in my Streetrods. She loves riding. We train a lot of what I call " streetwise". We have to deal with lots of untrained and highly reactive dogs and unskilled owners. It's a real challenge when you are caught in a hallway by an out of control dog. 

I use conversational commands with my dog for situational things. Automatic sits, wait befor crossing any path, street, etc., go easy going up stairs and one step going down, back up one step so I can open a door, wait to go through doors, come on to come through doors. She knows the one word commands but I use these especially when people are around. This catches their attention that I have a well trained dog. 

For performance sports plan your operation carefully and practice. You usually need to keep working on high drive to keep the dog interested. Keep it fun but correct for the dog. I use many short sessions, sometimes only one or two reps before a reward and release. When we go on long walks I may only do one thing going out and one other thing coming back. This keeps my dog focused but very interested. I talk a lot to my dog in a joyful tone.

Byron


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Has anyone managed to title in both without damaging the training of the other discipline? I don't want to confuse my dog with learning both English and German commands as a young pup, but the goal is to begin evaluating/training in IPO around 4-5 months and then begin the CKC obedience at 6 months.


I'd revise that time frame a little Femfa. IPO is 3 phases, its going to be a lot to handle on its own and because of the amount of attention and focus you need in the ob and protection, I'd concentrate the formal training on that and let the CKC go for a while longer.

The German commands for formal and casual in English are no big deal because its situational with what your doing and handling when your using them, but technically in IPO you're supposed to stick to one language, I've only ever seen that mentioned once though.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd revise that time frame a little Femfa. IPO is 3 phases, its going to be a lot to handle on its own and because of the amount of attention and focus you need in the ob and protection, I'd concentrate the formal training on that and let the CKC go for a while longer.
> 
> 
> 
> The German commands for formal and casual in English are no big deal because its situational with what your doing and handling when your using them, but technically in IPO you're supposed to stick to one language, I've only ever seen that mentioned once though.




Yeah, after we got in contact with the club they told me it was mandatory to take two obedience classes through their kennel. So the idea of doing the CKC obedience is already through the window. We'll be doing a combination of strict obedience and basic IPO training at 4 months. They did say that if they know you're doing it to join the IPO club (it's a trial basis and a requirement to do those obedience classes), they'd put a focus on sport training vs general obedience training. So I hope that works out. But everything is trial basis anyways, so even if I complete the two obedience classes and they decide after 3 months they don't like me or my dog, we can't join. 

So we'll see where things take us and go step by step. We're currently training specific commands that other people wouldn't use on her in German that are expected in the sport and then using English for things other might ask of her (sit, down as in off, etc). The English is more casual and we use it during play or informally, whereas the German we use during our actual training sessions. So I'm hoping we don't confuse her too much, but so far she's done an excellent job of understanding it. The only thing I've used in play and in training is Aus because I want her to understand that regardless of the situation or drive, she needs to out. Might not work out that way, but we'll see!


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I trained SCH in German commands because It forced me to use single word commands. Dogs don't know language, just what they were taught.
Currently I use a mix. For recall I use Heir. Reason being I don't want my dog to respond to "come" that everyone else uses. More than once I've seen multiple dogs respond. Heel is used to start moving and Fuss is used as a flip finish. However I can use hand and body moves to do them silently. Recalls I use voice, whistle, hand and flashlight. 

Train for your sport. Know the rules. I had not heard of being forced to use German in SCH or IPO. Maybe that's new.

I do hope you are aware of the steep and rough road ahead for SCH/IPO. I'd pick a language and learn the commands like a second language. Surely a training class will not criticize you for this. I recommend basic obed. For your pup but do learn what is required for your sport and work to that goal. I fought this battle 30 years ago with various AKC clubs and training centers. We got kicked out of two and we left in a huff from another, thus began my ongoing battle. 

Picking a pup that is capable of SCH III or IPO III is very difficult. I've seen it both ways, a good dog and a poor trainer struggling but determined make it and a poor dog trained by a good trainer with a hard head make it. It boils down to you and your determination to be successful. Sometimes you are just going to have break out on your own. But do use modern methods and you will be much more likely to succeed. 

It's very hard if you don't have a SCH/IPO club or training center close by. It's going to be a lifestyle thing until you reach the third level then it will be a maintenance thing. It still can be very time consuming. For example, tracking. Laying tracks morning, mid day and late afternoon 
Then letting them age. Now hopefully you have good maps and run them, keeping track of results as you go. That will pretty well eat up a Sat. or Sun. Twice a week for protection training and if you are fortunate you can maybe squeeze in obedience practice between protection exercises. If you belong to a club you may have to help with field maintenance. Unless you can secure a football field you may have to maintain your own field. Training for BH will be a given early on. Training for an AD is going to mean some long bike rides a couple days a week. It's is good for both you and your dog however to maintain physical condition.

We still go to training classes for practice and socilization a couple days a week and walk 3-10 miles nearly every day. Most of our training is " streetwise " stuff but almost every day. 
Good luck, happy training. Let's us know how you are doing.
Byron


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