# Blue Bay shepherd?



## cdwoodcox

I hope this is the right place. I tried a search and found nothing. Does anyone have experience with or knowledge of these dogs. Or a possible link to past forum discussions. http://bluebayshepherds.weebly.com/


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## NormanF

A new breed based off blue GSDs, intended to create a dog with a distinctive wolf like look.

According to breed founder Vicki Spencer:

*"The Blue Bay Shepherd is a new breed in progress that I have been working on for over 20 years. The first litters were finally produced in March 2011. Some of the foundation animals are from European German Shepherds imported from a top breeder in France with bloodlines from Germany and Holland as well. They are a color known as “Blue” and very hard to find in the shepherd. It has been my dream for many years to develop a dog that would have the willingness to please, the loyal nature and trainability of a well-bred German Shepherd with the extremely good health, loving nature and awesome beauty of their wolf ancestry. That has proved to be very difficult and at times a seemingly impossible thing to accomplish because finding just the right dog has not been easy. I always knew the German Shepherd had most of what I wanted. "
*


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## cdwoodcox

Yeah, I read the sight. LOL. I was hoping someone had hands on experience with them.


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## NormanF

A really beautiful, striking dog. Here's what a Blue Bay Shepherd looks like


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## NormanF

cdwoodcox said:


> Yeah, I read the sight. LOL. I was hoping someone had hands on experience with them.


LOL! Its new so its not yet an AKC Foundation breed. Since its rare, I would bet no one on here has one.

What applies to the GSD, applies to the Blue Bay since it a GSD derived breed.


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## cdwoodcox

They are beautiful dogs.


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## NormanF

cdwoodcox said:


> They are beautiful dogs.


Speaking of wolf-like appearance, this is uncanny:


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## d4lilbitz

I was reading the testimonials...This breeder allowed a puppy buyer to take a puppy home at 3 weeks???? Yikes...read the Elara testimonial...

Owner Testimonials -  Blue Bay Shepherds


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## NormanF

d4lilbitz said:


> I was reading the testimonials...This breeder allowed a puppy buyer to take a puppy home at 3 weeks???? Yikes...read the Elara testimonial...
> 
> Owner Testimonials - *Blue Bay Shepherds



No, she was taken home at 6-8 weeks of age after she gained 6 lbs. According to the testimonial, the pup was bigger than the adopter's resident kitty!


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## Jax08

so they are mashing together Husky's, GSD's and what are possibly wolf hybrids. There was another thread on them a while ago. I hope you aren't looking at this as a potential breeder?


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## NormanF

Jax08 said:


> so they are mashing together Husky's, GSD's and what are possibly wolf hybrids. There was another thread on them a while ago. I hope you aren't looking at this as a potential breeder?



Not the same. Its a not wolf hybrid. Its more like taking the blue GSD, which is a color fault and refining it through selective breeding to look like a dog that looks like a wolf. There is no breeding with wolves or with other dogs to create that distinctive look. Its breeding blue GSDs to try to create that kind of dog and go from there. You do have to admit it looks stunning. I didn't believe a blue GSD could be the base for a new breed. I do wish the breeder success in making it a reality.


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## voodoolamb

Meh. Just another BYB throwing together dogs based on looks to make a wolf looking dog IMHO. 

There are plenty of wolf looking breeds already in existence and there are people out there going about it in better ways, Like the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog. Written breed standard. All breeding stock CERF and OFA certified plus CGCed. 

Idk something about the about page for the blue bays have my spider sense tingling.


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## cdwoodcox

If they are everything they claim they are I would love to have one. Long coat blue.


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## Jax08

NormanF said:


> Not the same. Its a not wolf hybrid. Its more like taking the blue GSD, which is a color fault and refining it through selective breeding to look like a dog that looks like a wolf. There is no breeding with wolves or with other dogs to create that distinctive look. Its breeding blue GSDs to try to create that kind of dog and go from there. You do have to admit it looks stunning. I didn't believe a blue GSD could be the base for a new breed. I do wish the breeder success in making it a reality.


thanks for the recap


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## Jax08

voodoolamb said:


> Meh. Just another BYB throwing together dogs based on looks to make a wolf looking dog IMHO.
> 
> There are plenty of wolf looking breeds already in existence and there are people out there going about it in better ways, Like the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog. Written breed standard. All breeding stock CERF and OFA certified plus CGCed.
> 
> Idk something about the about page for the blue bays have my spider sense tingling.


I would not recommend the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog either. A member was suckered with one of those. They aren't what they advertise.

Just another high priced mixed breed.


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## NormanF

voodoolamb said:


> Meh. Just another BYB throwing together dogs based on looks to make a wolf looking dog IMHO.
> 
> There are plenty of wolf looking breeds already in existence and there are people out there going about it in better ways, Like the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog. Written breed standard. All breeding stock CERF and OFA certified plus CGCed.
> 
> Idk something about the about page for the blue bays have my spider sense tingling.



According to the breeder:

"So I have this year the first foundation litters of what I intend to develop as the Blue Bay Shepherd, just a good pet and true companion dog with “out of this world” beauty. They will not carry the stigma of the name “wolf” ,wolf dog” or wolf hybrid” since one of the parents is a full German Shepherd and the other parent is 5 generations away from any pure wolf in their line. This makes the first Blue Bays F-6. Within the next year or two I will be breeding Blue Bay to Blue Bay. I have been very selective about the animals that I chose for this first breeding. I used animals that I have line bred for quite some time specifically for looks and temperament and I know their backgrounds well. I have already chosen the other lines that I will be introducing into the further development of the breed although I can say I have come closer to exactly what I want the Blue Bay to be in these first pups than I ever imagined I would. There will be NO wolves added in the development of this breed. I will be creating a standard for what all Blue Bays should ideally be."

Not a wolf dog. She said specifically this is going to be a Blue GSD-based breed. If you mix in wolves, you're going to end up with a hybrid. Not what people are looking for in a companion and family pet.


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## voodoolamb

> I would not recommend the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog either. A member was suckered with one of those. They aren't what they advertise. Just another high priced mixed breed


Dang. See just when my faith that some out there might possibly be going about it the right way...

*puts cynical cap back on*


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## voodoolamb

NormanF - yes I read that. I still stand by what I said. The entirety of the "history" page and the rest of the site has my spidey sense tingling.


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## d4lilbitz

NormanF said:


> No, she was taken home at 6-8 weeks of age after she gained 6 lbs. According to the testimonial, the pup was bigger than the adopter's resident kitty!


Where do you see that? I see this, "she came into the world on February 20th, 2013. She was born a litter of one and I had first pick, I was elated! So much so that I cried after we got off the phone. My girl, a girl given the name Elara was coming home with me soon. Once I knew my girl was there, I booked a flight the following week to come and get her..... I wanted to bring Elara home early so that we could start socializing her with our multi-species family which includes 3 cats. She had 3 weeks to get huge with her mamma Slate giving her all the attention and milk. "

Based on this...the pup was maybe 4 weeks...not 6 -8. Not sure where you're reading that. The puppy left the breeder at 6 lbs....for a singleton, that's small. Sorry...BYB.


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## yuriy

voodoolamb said:


> Meh. Just another BYB throwing together dogs based on looks to make a wolf looking dog IMHO.


And the "I'm a special snowflake and similar-looking dogs found elsewhere are inferior because they don't have MY certificate" undertone on the homepage doesn't help.


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## NormanF

Blue Bay Shepherd has a cachet to it that Blue GSD doesn't.

People are willing to pay more for a fancy-sounding name and certificate of authenticity.


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## cdwoodcox

The whole only one kennel in America and one in the UK has blue bay shepherds, to me doesn't add any negative undertones. No different then saying that a gsd without any proven pedigree or titles is a champion gsd. It simply isn't true.


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## cdwoodcox

If what the site says is true. I for one would love to have one.


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## NormanF

cdwoodcox said:


> If what the site says is true. I for one would love to have one.


If you like to have one, contact Vicki and discuss a possible adoption. You don't need our approval to acquire your dream dog.

Since the dog looks gorgeous, I say go for it and update us on having a new Blue Bay Shepherd in your family.


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## cdwoodcox

NormanF said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> 
> If what the site says is true. I for one would love to have one.
> 
> 
> 
> If you like to have one, contact Vicki and discuss a possible adoption. You don't need our approval to acquire your dream dog.
> 
> Since the dog looks gorgeous, I say go for it and update us on having a new Blue Bay Shepherd in your family.
Click to expand...

I have already emailed her. Wasn't really looking for approval just confirmation that these dogs are what they are advertised. Was hoping someone on here has been around one or had first hand knowledge. Temperament is what I am looking at as the deciding factor in my next dog. I know there are no guarantees . However, With gsd there is a long standing history that can be traced back generations. So I feel confident enough to purchase and know I am getting what I ask for. I guess confirmation on the new breed is what I was hoping for. We'll see how the correspondence goes.


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## NormanF

cdwoodcox said:


> I have already emailed her. Wasn't really looking for approval just confirmation that these dogs are what they are advertised. Was hoping someone on here has been around one or had first hand knowledge. Temperament is what I am looking at as the deciding factor in my next dog. I know there are no guarantees . However, With gsd there is a long standing history that can be traced back generations. So I feel confident enough to purchase and know I am getting what I ask for. I guess confirmation on the new breed is what I was hoping for. We'll see how the correspondence goes.


The only way to know for sure is to meet the breeder in person and get a dog whose temperament and personality matches yours and your lifestyle. You can get a warranty but there are no guarantees on health and longevity. I hope you get what you're asking for and good luck on adopting a new dog.


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## Stonevintage

Something to research if you are interested in these. Many states forbid wolf/dog cross ownership. Because of the difficulty setting laws with different percentages and content, most have come up with a very lose but stringent law that allows prosecution if there is a bite or attack. Any dog that "appears" to have wolf content will fall under these laws and the visual look is enough for law endorsement and animal control to treat as a wolf/hybrid. IMO these would certainly fall into that category.

One of the first problems is that rabies vaccinations are not acknowledged as effective in any wolf/dog cross. Because of this, in the case of a bite - the dog will be treated as an unvaccinated. The process of rabies testing requires the dog be seized by LE and the head sent to a facility for rabies testing. 

You can look further into this with your own state laws, which I would recommend. The laws vary widely from state to state but I believe the law that rabies vaccinations are not valid is a federal law. 

This is something what was not in place when I owned my hybrid. I would think twice about what could happen today with these laws in place.


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> Something to research if you are interested in these. Many states forbid wolf/dog cross ownership. Because of the difficulty setting laws with different percentages and content, most have come up with a very lose but stringent law that allows prosecution if there is a bite or attack. Any dog that "appears" to have wolf content will fall under these laws and the visual look is enough for law endorsement and animal control to treat as a wolf/hybrid. IMO these would certainly fall into that category.
> 
> One of the first problems is that rabies vaccinations are not acknowledged as effective in any wolf/dog cross. Because of this, in the case of a bite - the dog will be treated as an unvaccinated. The process of rabies testing requires the dog be seized by LE and the head sent to a facility for rabies testing.
> 
> You can look further into this with your own state laws, which I would recommend. The laws vary widely from state to state but I believe the law that rabies vaccinations are not valid is a federal law.
> 
> This is something what was not in place when I owned my hybrid. I would think twice about what could happen today with these laws in place.



OP is not adopting a wolf-dog hybrid. I would not recommend one even to a very experienced owner. OP is seeking a domestic dog that has a wolfy look. The GSD excels in this respect and the Blue Bay Shepherd carries it forward without any wolf blood. I think this is the right approach. If a person wants a dog that looks like a wolf, there are plenty of breeds to satisfy the desire without the drastic step of acquiring a wolf-dog hybrid. Now GSDs and Czech Wolfdogs have had wolf ancestry but that was generations ago and they're domestic dogs with a friendly temperament. If you ask me candidly where a wolf belongs, the wild is its place and we should honor it. Domesticated dogs exist for a reason.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cdwoodcox said:


> If what the site says is true. I for one would love to have one.


There is somebody on this site that has a long haired, solid blue German Shepherd that strongly resembles that dog. There are breeders producing the them. Why not choose one of them? Since you like German Shepherds, and these dogs seem to be the complete opposite from GSDs in temperament, do you think the temperament will be a good match for you? 

https://www.google.com/search?q=lon...0ahUKEwj6t_74u4DLAhWBmR4KHTY8AxsQsAQIGw&dpr=1


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## NormanF

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is somebody on this site that has a long haired, solid blue German Shepherd that strongly resembles that dog. There are breeders producing the them. Why not choose one of them? Since you like German Shepherds, and these dogs seem to be the complete opposite from GSDs in temperament, do you think the temperament will be a good match for you?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=lon...0ahUKEwj6t_74u4DLAhWBmR4KHTY8AxsQsAQIGw&dpr=1


Good question. OP apparently wants a solid Blue GSD plus. As I noted, he should work with the breeder on finding a dog whose personality and temperament would be a good match for him and his lifestyle. With the Blue Bay Shepherd being a new breed, there are a lot of unknowns. He would be on more solid ground with a Blue GSD but he has his heart set on this breed and that's what he wants.


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## MineAreWorkingline

NormanF said:


> Good question. OP apparently wants a solid Blue GSD plus. As I noted, he should work with the breeder on finding a dog whose personality and temperament would be a good match for him and his lifestyle. With the Blue Bay Shepherd being a new breed, there are a lot of unknowns. He would be on more solid ground with a Blue GSD but he has his heart set on this breed and that's what he wants.


It sounds like the Blue Bays are GSDs minus.


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## NormanF

I'm not that adventurous. I like GSDs because they're a known quantity and my next dog will be a GSD.

As for others, if they want something different, they should be able to get their dream dog.


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## Stonevintage

NormanF said:


> OP is not adopting a wolf-dog hybrid. I would not recommend one even to a very experienced owner. OP is seeking a domestic dog that has a wolfy look. The GSD excels in this respect and the Blue Bay Shepherd carries it forward without any wolf blood. I think this is the right approach. If a person wants a dog that looks like a wolf, there are plenty of breeds to satisfy the desire without the drastic step of acquiring a wolf-dog hybrid. Now GSDs and Czech Wolfdogs have had wolf ancestry but that was generations ago and they're domestic dogs with a friendly temperament. If you ask me candidly where a wolf belongs, the wild is its place and we should honor it. Domesticated dogs exist for a reason.


Norman - You need to read how the breed is being developed from the website link provided. It is from their website that I got the information that they used wolves for the breed. The site History of the Breed section "Developing the Breed" paragraph specifically states that one original parent was pure wolf. They are specific to currently using an F6 cross parent. 

My caution is only as to the way current laws read. They do not exclude for something past say an F2 or F3 crossing nor does the vaccination law. No doubt they are breeding back to maintain the eye color, ear size and coat and because their gene pool is small. As I stated the mere visual appearance of a dog that seems to have a wolf percentage is enough to LE to roll on the laws in place. Playing with the genetic pool does not work to get around the laws.


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## voodoolamb

> OP is not adopting a wolf-dog hybrid. I would not recommend one even to a very experienced owner. OP is seeking a domestic dog that has a wolfy look. The GSD excels in this respect and the Blue Bay Shepherd carries it forward without any wolf blood. I think this is the right approach. If a person wants a dog that looks like a wolf, there are plenty of breeds to satisfy the desire without the drastic step of acquiring a wolf-dog hybrid. Now GSDs and Czech Wolfdogs have had wolf ancestry but that was generations ago and they're domestic dogs with a friendly temperament. If you ask me candidly where a wolf belongs, the wild is its place and we should honor it. Domesticated dogs exist for a reason


I think what stone vintage was saying is because these dogs LOOK wolfy then local ordinances may treat them as such. 

And to be fair these dogs DO have wolf ancestory according to the breeder's sight. Supposedly 5 generations back only, but that may qualify them as Wolfdogs/wolf hybrids under local law. 

I certainly would be researching the local wolf ownership law before getting one. 

I do find it worth noting that this breeder does also offer mid to high content wolf dogs as well 
http://wolfhybrids.com/main.html 
Same phone number.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Not so long ago there was another breed, I think they were called American Indian Dogs, that had a similar breeding plan except producing dogs in different colors. When the poop hit the fan, because so many people were having serious problems with the dogs, turned out it was nothing but wolf hybrids being sold under the same premise.


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> Norman - You need to read how the breed is being developed from the website link provided. It is from their website that I got the information that they used wolves for the breed. The site History of the Breed section "Developing the Breed" paragraph specifically states that one original parent was pure wolf. They are specific to currently using an F6 cross parent currently.
> 
> My caution is only as to the way current laws read. They do not exclude for something past say an F2 or F3 crossing nor does the vaccination law. No doubt they are breeding back to maintain the eye color, ear size and coat and because their gene pool is small. As I stated the mere visual appearance of a dog that seems to have a wolf percentage is enough to LE to roll on the laws in place. Playing with the genetic pool does not work to get around the laws.


One of the original ancestors was a F6 hybrid and the other was a full German Shepherd. So they produced the first Blue Bay pups and they say they intend to produce more now through Bay to Bay true breeding. After a couple of generations, how would the dog remain a hybrid? For comparison, the Czech Wolfdog's last wolf ancestor is several generations back, it now breeds true and is no longer considered a wolf-dog hybrid. Its listed as a Foundation Breed in the Herding Dog Group by the AKC nowadays.


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## Stonevintage

Good tracking job Voodoo. Ha! I guess we know at any rate what Norman thinks of wolf/dogs.


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> Good tracking job Voodoo. Ha! I guess we know at any rate what Norman thinks of wolf/dogs.


I don't recommend them. Too many unknowns. You can't predict their temperament confidently the way you can with a domestic dog. The Czech Wolfdog is a domestic dog that came about through careful breeding. Same can't be said for wolf-dog hybrids. The closest I'll come to keeping a wolf in captivity is a GSD.


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## Stonevintage

The Czech Wolf Dog was created in 1955. Not recognized as a breed until 1982. How do you continue the wolf content? Simple way would be to only breed F6 to F6 for parents. Then the progeny will be F6 percentage what ever that was. It is my understanding that the eye color is the hardest to maintain as dog genetics are constantly fighting to go darker. The only way you can "freshen" the trait is to breed back into more wolf content and then again bring the content back down to F6 content and using dogs from that "freshened" line to breed. 

As far as I know, though developed in 1955, the Czech Wolf Dog still has unpredictably in eye color.


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## Stonevintage

Have you ever owned one Norman?


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> The Czech Wolf Dog was created in 1955. Not recognized as a breed until 1982. How do you continue the wolf content? Simple way would be to only breed F6 to F6 for parents. Then the progeny will be F6 percentage what ever that was. It is my understanding that the eye color is the hardest to maintain as dog genetics are constantly fighting to go darker. The only way you can "freshen" the trait is to breed back into more wolf content and then again bring the content back down to F6 content and using dogs from that "freshened" line to breed.
> 
> As far as I know, though developed in 1955, the Czech Wolf Dog still has unpredictably in eye color.


Eye color is supposed to be amber like the Carpathian Wolf. But there's that GSD parentage and GSD's have brown eyes as virtually nearly all domestic dogs do.


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## voodoolamb

Czech wolf dogs don't really even look wolfy IMHO. They have wolf color on a vaguely GSD body. 

I'm dubious as to the ability to have a truly wolfy looking DOG. If you look at the Russian fox expirement they had neoteny within a few generations of selecting for dog like behaviors and this was in a purely wild/undomesticated genepool.

The recent wolfy looking dogs the native American Indian dogs and alaskan nobles have had fraud controversies being nothing more then hybrids. 

The more established attempts of wolfy looking dogs all miss the marks. The ones that used wolves like the Czechs and saarloos missed the mark. Tamaskans miss it. On the whole they are obviously dogs. 

Some of those blue bays look awfully wolfy. The breeder also breeds wolves. I question the claim of one wolf ancestory 5 generations back.


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> Have you ever owned one Norman?


No. I owned a GSD. GSDs have enough of a wolfy look to keep a dog lover happy. Why risk a gamble with a wolf-dog hybrid?


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## voodoolamb

Disclaimer: I have an insane amount of nyquil coursing through my veins. So everything I am saying and thinking is through a cold medicine haze. So just ignore me if I say something stupid


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## NormanF

voodoolamb said:


> Czech wolf dogs don't really even look wolfy IMHO. They have wolf color on a vaguely GSD body.
> 
> I'm dubious as to the ability to have a truly wolfy looking DOG. If you look at the Russian fox expirement they had neoteny within a few generations of selecting for dog like behaviors and this was in a purely wild/undomesticated genepool.
> 
> The recent wolfy looking dogs the native American Indian dogs and alaskan nobles have had fraud controversies being nothing more then hybrids.
> 
> The more established attempts of wolfy looking dogs all miss the marks. The ones that used wolves like the Czechs and saarloos missed the mark. Tamaskans miss it. On the whole they are obviously dogs.
> 
> Some of those blue bays look awfully wolfy. The breeder also breeds wolves. I question the claim of one wolf ancestory 5 generations back.


The Czech Wolfdog was an attempt to create a super GSD, by combining the stamina and endurance of the wolf with the tractability and loyalty of the GSD. 

The Czech Wolfdogs, Saarlos and Tasmaskans are dogs. They don't act like wolves. They're simply dogs bred to look like wolves. The Blue Bay is much the same. People who buy these dogs expecting to get what makes a wolf a wolf in a dog are going to wind up being disappointed.


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## dogma13

voodoolamb said:


> Disclaimer: I have an insane amount of nyquil coursing through my veins. So everything I am saying and thinking is through a cold medicine haze. So just ignore me if I say something stupid


Lol!I need some!I'm up way too late and spending way too much time on here


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## voodoolamb

> The Czech Wolfdog was an attempt to create a super GSD, by combining the stamina and endurance of the wolf with the tractability and loyalty of the GSD. The Czech Wolfdogs, Saarlos and Tasmaskans are dogs. They don't act like wolves. They're simply dogs bred to look like wolves. The Blue Bay is much the same. People who buy these dogs expecting to get what makes a wolf a wolf in a dog are going to wind up being disappointed


I'm familiar with the history of Czech wolf dogs.  

My point is that they don't look like wolves! They have the same color, but head shape, ears, eyes, snout, body all scream DOG. 

Looking through the blue bay breeding stock several look like they are higher content wolf then the claimed 5 generations ago.


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## Stonevintage

Norman - Here is a link to answer some of the questions about an F6 cross. If you don't want to read thru all the pages just scroll down to the photos on page 10. Page 11 reveals the percentages of crossings and how far out or how long ago the crossing was from the original F1.

As you can see, photo #1 is an F6 and his wolf percentage is 47%.
www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/FWC_Pheno_Pamphlet_2011.pdf


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> Norman - Here is a link to answer some of the questions about an F6 cross. If you don't want to read thru all the pages just scroll down to the photos on page 10. Page 11 reveals the percentages of crossings and how far out or how long ago the crossing was from the original F1.
> 
> As you can see, photo #1 is an F6 and his wolf percentage is 47%.
> www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/FWC_Pheno_Pamphlet_2011.pdf



If the F6 parent is nearly half wolf, then the Blue Bay Shepherd should be labeled and sold as a wolf-dog. The GSD parental contribution wouldn't dilute the wolf-dog content. They say the breeding program has no wolf blood but that isn't exactly true because half of the genes already come from a mid content wolf-dog hybrid. If they disclosed who the F6 parent is, would any one think that the GSD would make it a dog? As for breeding true, its only been bred like that for a few generations, too soon to know what kind of dog it would be.


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## cdwoodcox

NormanF said:


> MineAreWorkingline said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is somebody on this site that has a long haired, solid blue German Shepherd that strongly resembles that dog. There are breeders producing the them. Why not choose one of them? Since you like German Shepherds, and these dogs seem to be the complete opposite from GSDs in temperament, do you think the temperament will be a good match for you?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=lon...0ahUKEwj6t_74u4DLAhWBmR4KHTY8AxsQsAQIGw&dpr=1
> 
> 
> 
> he has his heart set on this breed and that's what he wants.
Click to expand...

 I wouldn't say that my heart is set on a blue bay shepherd. I merely want to research the breed as a possibility. I am still very much set on a long coat sable as my next dog. It would take a lot to change me from that. But these are the only other dogs that I thought compared in looks to the long coat sables. That being said I will communicate with the breeder and do some research. Even this thread has been helpful.


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## wolfstraum

I think a solid blue GSD is gorgeous!!!! However - don't have one, would not breed one. I don't care for the tan/blue dogs as they just look washy.

This site has ALOT of what appear to be purebred blue GSDs - they put them into their program and call them "Blue Bay" dogs.....yes back a few generations, they do have wolf/wolf crosses in some of the dogs....

Just the new generation of Shiloh minded breeders....just based on color instead of size here.

There are blue and blue long hairs out there....not easy to find - but you will find one if you look....send out emails to European kennels and eventually someone will produce one.


Lee


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## Stonevintage

Who can say. The breeder's take on things may shed some light on what she is trying to do. As she states, this is still something in development. It may be that her attempts may work IF there is something in the genetic makeup of the blues that more easily allows a cross to fix. There is a difference in the blue's but it's genetics that I don't understand.

I have owned both an F1 cross and a Blue in the past. So this is interesting to me. I can't fault anyone for trying if they are dedicated and honest. Success at this may help prevent the disasters that occur when hybrids are taken into homes that are ill prepared for wolfy traits which IMO is probably better than 90%. People want the look but not the traits. 

It has been done with the Czech Wolf Dog. It appears that Dog breed continues to maintain a fixed 6.23% wolf content. It has enhanced endurance and exceptional tracking skills. It is an established breed and the world didn't end because they exist. Neither the wolf nor dog population suffer because they exist.


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## Solo93

I've met the breeder in person...both at her house and at mine. (Back when I had the wolf dog rescue, many of us made a regular habit of meeting each other's animals & comparing notes on handling, containment, genetic contribution, etc.) I have not visited her since she switched over to (mainly) Blue Bays but have met the high F#, mid % foundation stock. Nice animals, but a mid content can be a handful for the average person. They tend to be reactive & shy, which is a PITA for most people. (Better bite inhibition than most dogs though, due to wolf influence. A wolf does NOT want to hurt its packmates...it needs them.) The mids were 1/4 to 1/2 shepherd, roughly. They tend to be more tractable than the Sibe and Mal crosses, but sharper, and can be pretty neurotic if not socialsed well & trained. She has been breeding for...20+ years, might be closer to 30. She knows her stuff, imo. People underestimate the contribution of wolf genes, as 1/4 wolf is basically a dog. (My half-wolf is basically a dog, easier than my purebred GSDs in the past, but he came from good lines on both sides and I was a very experienced handled when I acquired him.) I would expect less health problems than a GSD, more independence, and vllimited tolerance for "handler error". You also need a 6' minimum fence, with dig skirting or a footer, if you plan to leave a dog like that outdoors unattended.
I have met quite a few Southern Breeze line wolfdogs. I have not met any Blue Bays in person. I do know a few folks who have them, and they are thrilled, but then again they are coming from wolf dogs, not dog-dogs. If you are close enough to visit, you should try to meet the foundation animals...if not, ask her if any of her buyers near you would allow a meet n greet. My 2 cents. ;-)

NAID dogs ("Indian dogs") are a freaking disaster. I'm a pretty MYOB person, but we have been hoping to close that puppymill down for 15 years now. I could tell SO many horror stories. Do not recommend. :-( 
Tamaskans, eh. Not very wolfy looking imo, generic Northern temperament, socialisation and training make or break them. Some lines have wolf (F3 or thereabouts) & some don't. Ditto for CsV (Czech "wolfdog") and Saarloos. "American Tundra Shepherds" seem to have faded out, but they were another similar breed...made with poor quality GSD, malamute & maybe a few wolf hairs. Temperament & health both subpar in my opinion...but everybody has an opinion. ATS were modeled after the military "superdog" experiment to add 1/4 wolf to a GSD to increase health, stamina, & ability. What they got was shy dogs who wouldn't work off territory. The project was abandoned quickly. Then again, Angola uses wolf/shepherd hybrids (mid content) as patrol dogs and I'm told it worked for them. I fostered one of the Louisiana prison dogs and he was actually a really neat dog. You use crap purebreds, you get crappy mixes. 

Sorry for the novel...maybe tmi. ;-)


----------



## Solo93

underestimate the contribution of wolf genes," 

Arrgh, typo. People *OVERestimate* the contribution...as if a bit of wolf makes the dog fundamentally different. It really doesn't; I say that based on 16+ yrs of experience with large numbers of them, handling hundreds of all crosses & content levels. Canids exist on a continuum. Wolves don't have even one behavior not found in dogs, & vice versa...but they have a different "breed package" of traits--reactive like a GSD or Border collie, intense like a Malinois or working line shepherd, independent like a husky, etc. Disclaimer is that a full wolf (like a handful of dog breeds) is NOT a pet and I would not recommend them to most people!


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## Stonevintage

Thanks for the input Solo. Having met this breeder and seen her operation, what to you think? Is she doing anything differently that won't result in failure as has been the case in the past with other attempts? I noticed that she is talking about good temperament. Knowing what you know, do you think she can really promise that?


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## Solo93

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for the input Solo. Having met this breeder and seen her operation, what to you think? Is she doing anything differently that won't result in failure as has been the case in the past with other attempts? I noticed that she is talking about good temperament. Knowing what you know, do you think she can really promise that?


I don't think you can ever promise 'good temperament', when starting with a puppy, because of the nature/nurture thing. I can take almost any dog & turn it into a nice companion. (Obviously if you need a working dog who will do a specialized job, genetics is going to be a bigger deal.) Somebody who doesn't train, doesn't socialise, doesn't understand dogs, or is a poor lifestyle fit for that dog will not get good results. I think that some breeds, anything that's part wolf among them, is VERY dependent upon there not being a lot of handler error. Whereas a Golden puppy may tolerate a lot of newbie mistakes, a Blue Bay won't. A GSD often won't either, so in that respect, not too much different. The lines she's got are not known for genetic aggression (unlike the NAID dogs, Davidson line wolves, Filas, Causasian LGDs...) and they ARE known for shyness on the wolfdog side (because that's a super common wolfdog trait) so...that's your Square One/starting point. I have seen some of her wolfdogs be pretty amazing and some be skittish unsociables, and handling technique was the difference. They really have the potential to go either way.


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## wolfstraum

Solo93 said:


> I've met the breeder in person...both at her house and at mine. (Back when I had the wolf dog rescue, many of us made a regular habit of meeting each other's animals & comparing notes on handling, containment, genetic contribution, etc.) I have not visited her since she switched over to (mainly) Blue Bays but have met the high F#, mid % foundation stock. Nice animals, but a mid content can be a handful for the average person. They tend to be reactive & shy, which is a PITA for most people. (Better bite inhibition than most dogs though, due to wolf influence. A wolf does NOT want to hurt its packmates...it needs them.) The mids were 1/4 to 1/2 shepherd, roughly. They tend to be more tractable than the Sibe and Mal crosses, but sharper, and can be pretty neurotic if not socialsed well & trained. She has been breeding for...20+ years, might be closer to 30. She knows her stuff, imo. People underestimate the contribution of wolf genes, as 1/4 wolf is basically a dog. (My half-wolf is basically a dog, easier than my purebred GSDs in the past, but he came from good lines on both sides and I was a very experienced handled when I acquired him.) I would expect less health problems than a GSD, more independence, and vllimited tolerance for "handler error". You also need a 6' minimum fence, with dig skirting or a footer, if you plan to leave a dog like that outdoors unattended.
> I have met quite a few Southern Breeze line wolfdogs. I have not met any Blue Bays in person. I do know a few folks who have them, and they are thrilled, but then again they are coming from wolf dogs, not dog-dogs. If you are close enough to visit, you should try to meet the foundation animals...if not, ask her if any of her buyers near you would allow a meet n greet. My 2 cents. ;-)
> 
> NAID dogs ("Indian dogs") are a freaking disaster. I'm a pretty MYOB person, but we have been hoping to close that puppymill down for 15 years now. I could tell SO many horror stories. Do not recommend. :-(
> Tamaskans, eh. Not very wolfy looking imo, generic Northern temperament, socialisation and training make or break them. Some lines have wolf (F3 or thereabouts) & some don't. Ditto for CsV (Czech "wolfdog") and Saarloos. "American Tundra Shepherds" seem to have faded out, but they were another similar breed...made with poor quality GSD, malamute & maybe a few wolf hairs. Temperament & health both subpar in my opinion...but everybody has an opinion. ATS were modeled after the military "superdog" experiment to add 1/4 wolf to a GSD to increase health, stamina, & ability. What they got was shy dogs who wouldn't work off territory. The project was abandoned quickly. Then again, Angola uses wolf/shepherd hybrids (mid content) as patrol dogs and I'm told it worked for them. I fostered one of the Louisiana prison dogs and he was actually a really neat dog. You use crap purebreds, you get crappy mixes.
> 
> Sorry for the novel...maybe tmi. ;-)



No - not too much information.....actually very interesting!

I would wonder where she gets her blue GSDs......here in teh US I don't know or know of a GSD breeder who would sell a puppy to someone developing a line/breed like this - most sell on limited papers period - of course, limited papers would not stop a breeding like this, as no recognized papers are going to be issued to the offspring. So the conclusion would be that she has poor GSDs....but then, if she is bringing in European bred dogs, they might be of good quality....

Lee


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## Solo93

wolfstraum said:


> I would wonder where she gets her blue GSDs.....


They're European imports.


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## Stonevintage

I understand what you are saying about traits but I do believe that because many people haven't been around dogs with "extreme" traits they do attribute this to the wolf component. 

The den digging behavior though - is one that I believe is an inherited trait that not many dog breeds express much anymore. The den that ours created under the house foundation was almost large enough to walk in. It's sides had old blankets and towels literally packed into the dirt sides. We never knew it existed for years because it was concealed by a wood deck. 

I recently read a research paper, in "puzzle" tests the wolf demonstrates an 80% success rate where dogs of several breeds were only successful 20%. This translates into more "try" as in if your wolf/dog wants to escape your yard - he's probably going to do it lol.

I had mine from 18 days old to 13 1/3 years old. An amazing wonderful experience. I got lucky.


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## Solo93

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying about traits but I do believe that because many people haven't been around dogs with "extreme" traits they do attribute this to the wolf component.
> 
> The den digging behavior though - is one that I believe is an inherited trait that not many dog breeds express much anymore. The den that ours created under the house foundation was almost large enough to walk in. It's sides had old blankets and towels literally packed into the dirt sides. We never knew it existed for years because it was concealed by a wood deck.
> 
> I recently read a research paper, in "puzzle" tests the wolf demonstrates an 80% success rate where dogs of several breeds were only successful 20%. This translates into more "try" as in if your wolf/dog wants to escape your yard - he's probably going to do it lol.
> 
> I had mine from 18 days old to 13 1/3 years old. An amazing wonderful experience. I got lucky.


It IS a wonderful experience...and don't sell yourself short.  I think you were more dedicated, than lucky.
Huskies dig dens, and Border collies are brilliant, and and nothing has more "try" than a terrier. ;-D You are right though, they are a LOT of dog & most folks probably don't have that frame of reference until they meet some. It also has a lot to do with expectations, I guess. My guys were all individuals...I raised 6 permanent ones from pup to grave, and had at least 150 fosters; some were long term or "foster fails". I only had a few I wasn't crazy about, & only 2 that I felt were too damaged to do much with. I lost my awesome 15yo "98%" last year (had him from 10 days), and man, do they leave a hole. ;-o This guy, boy... Ono has passed


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## Stonevintage

Wow Solo - I didn't realize who you were until I opened that webpage. Thank you for having the courage and taking the time to drop in here. There are some from time to time that have a curiosity about wolf/dogs. I will refer them to your site in the future. It looks insightful with plenty of education and precautions. 

What do you recommend to owners for training methods? Any difference than regular dogs - (individual as to temperament).


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## dogma13

Solo,what a beautiful tribute.


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## Castlemaid

What I find funny is that BYB of GSDs' will claim "Champion Bloodlines" if the dogs' pedigree has some titled dog six generations back. 

But this breeder claims that the dog are not wolf-dogs because the wolf was six generations back? 

I guess if it makes the breeder look good, six generation back is something to brag about; if it may cause issues, then the six generations back is not relevant anymore.


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## Solo93

Stonevintage said:


> What do you recommend to owners for training methods? Any difference than regular dogs - (individual as to temperament).


As you noted--individualised,as to temperament. For the foundation--the most critical part--I focus on the relationship as a whole: nonviolent & proactive leadership skills (some dogs might get away without a "boss", but not wolfdogs!), great 2-way communication, an understanding of canine social rules, and bonding! Enrichment, fun games, group walks, special treats for responding to commands. 

I strongly recommend a loose No Free Lunch/NILIF type of program (more like "Little in Life is Free"), and do a lot of "focus" and "indirect access" stuff...because they are independent Northern mutts, and they need to learn that all good stuff comes from me, and you go through me to get what you want. I also make sure to do manners-building things like claim my space, and reward calm and prosocial behaviour. For example, when I ate dinner, I'd have 5 or 6 wolfdogs lying on the floor waiting, and when I finished I'd get up and drop a bit of leftover food in front of each one.

I use positive reinforcement to teach, managing the environment to prevent rehearsal of "bad" behaviours (this includes solid dog-proof fencing), redirect and then reward alternate behaviours, and I correct for deliberate disobedience. I also make sure that I'm consistent, and never give a command I can't/won't enforce. If I say "do X" then I need to make sure "X" happens...even if that means I assist the dog with the behaviour (& then I praise or reward for "getting it right", even if I helped). 

I also watch their thresholds. Modern life can be overstimulating, and you don't want them to feel overwhelmed. I build plenty of quiet down-time and free play into their routine, and I make sure they get the company of other canines, because there are some things you as a human just can't compare to. Not necessarily true for, say, bully breeds or Akitas, but wolves are pretty gregarious with their own kind.

I think the stuff above is valid for pretty much ANY dog. It's just that you can slack off more with a lot of them, & they still turn out okay. Wolfdogs, if you give them an inch, some of them will take a mile. I never get rough with them (!) but I'm strict w.r.t. mental "discipline", and having them build self-control. The shy ones need structure and strong leadership just as much as the pushy ones do; it makes them a lot more secure.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Solo93 said:


> As you noted--individualised,as to temperament. For the foundation--the most critical part--I focus on the relationship as a whole: nonviolent & proactive leadership skills (some dogs might get away without a "boss", but not wolfdogs!), great 2-way communication, an understanding of canine social rules, and bonding! Enrichment, fun games, group walks, special treats for responding to commands.
> 
> I strongly recommend a loose No Free Lunch/NILIF type of program (more like "Little in Life is Free"), and do a lot of "focus" and "indirect access" stuff...because they are independent Northern mutts, and they need to learn that all good stuff comes from me, and you go through me to get what you want. I also make sure to do manners-building things like claim my space, and reward calm and prosocial behaviour. For example, when I ate dinner, I'd have 5 or 6 wolfdogs lying on the floor waiting, and when I finished I'd get up and drop a bit of leftover food in front of each one.
> 
> I use positive reinforcement to teach, managing the environment to prevent rehearsal of "bad" behaviours (this includes solid dog-proof fencing), redirect and then reward alternate behaviours, and I correct for deliberate disobedience. I also make sure that I'm consistent, and never give a command I can't/won't enforce. If I say "do X" then I need to make sure "X" happens...even if that means I assist the dog with the behaviour (& then I praise or reward for "getting it right", even if I helped).
> 
> I also watch their thresholds. Modern life can be overstimulating, and you don't want them to feel overwhelmed. *I build plenty of quiet down-time and free play into their routine, and I make sure they get the company of other canines, because there are some things you as a human just can't compare to. Not necessarily true for, say, bully breeds or Akitas, but wolves are pretty gregarious with their own kind.
> 
> I think the stuff above is valid for pretty much ANY dog.* It's just that you can slack off more with a lot of them, & they still turn out okay. Wolfdogs, if you give them an inch, some of them will take a mile. I never get rough with them (!) but I'm strict w.r.t. mental "discipline", and having them build self-control. The shy ones need structure and strong leadership just as much as the pushy ones do; it makes them a lot more secure.


As somebody that tends to own dogs in multiples, 4-6 large breed, I practice much of the above and totally agree with the part I bolded.


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## Lilie

NormanF said:


> Eye color is supposed to be amber like the Carpathian Wolf. But there's that GSD parentage and GSD's have brown eyes as virtually nearly all domestic dogs do.


Just a side note, the statement above is not correct. There are many (domestic) breeds with Amber eyes as well as Blue eyed breeds.


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## Stonevintage

All sounds like normal sound advise. Lol - I find it hilarious - some new GSD owners still think you have to have to Alpha roll their pups based on wolf pack theory and here you are successfully using and recommending training methods that are very much the opposite. I'm going to wright this link down so I can refer it to the next guy that posts here that believes you have to pin your dogs at every turn because that's what wolves do to each other.

I had mine in the late 70's thru the 80's - (Bill Wakefield pup) The wildlife biologist we got ours from had some very strict rules. We first he had us adopt a dog/puppy and train that one. He told us what to look for in breed and personality. We did. After 6 months, he had us bring our new GSD/AST pup out to his place and "we" were tested as to the training. We passed with flying colors and got some very good tips. That allowed us to have a 50/50 F1 but no higher%. The 3/4's only went to homes with higher % experience. His instructions to us were - anything that you train this dog pup to do you can train your hybrid to do. Having this dog trained will assist you in training your hybrid.

Looking back, I think this was partially to provide confidence in us so we wouldn't pass anything off as un-trainable and partially because of their love of companionship. A smart move on his part and I'm sure responsible for our success. Man, they had so much fun together! So many years of happy times and adventures in the forests. The only time they ever had leashes or collars on were for trips to the vet.


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## Solo93

Stonevintage said:


> All sounds like normal sound advise. Lol - I find it hilarious - some new GSD owners still think you have to have to Alpha roll their pups based on wolf pack theory and here you are successfully using and recommending training methods that are very much the opposite. I'm going to wright this link down so I can refer it to the next guy that posts here that believes you have to pin your dogs at every turn because that's what wolves do to each other.
> 
> I had mine in the late 70's thru the 80's - (Bill Wakefield pup) The wildlife biologist we got ours from had some very strict rules. We first he had us adopt a dog/puppy and train that one. He told us what to look for in breed and personality. We did. After 6 months, he had us bring our new GSD/AST pup out to his place and "we" were tested as to the training. We passed with flying colors and got some very good tips. That allowed us to have a 50/50 F1 but no higher%. The 3/4's only went to homes with higher % experience. His instructions to us were - anything that you train this dog pup to do you can train your hybrid to do. Having this dog trained will assist you in training your hybrid.


I like your breeder's conscientiousness!  Wolfdogs do learn more quickly from other dogs, especially an adult role model...and most hate to be the only dog. The way you did it is great advice.

It is suprising to me, how few people really understand social dominance. You get the full gamut from "dominance doesn't exist" (wow...um, NO) to "dominance means to hit and roll your dog all the time just 'cause" (also **** no). Dominance exists to PREVENT violence, not cause it. It is an extremely useful concept when you fully understand it...but everybody wants it explained in a sound bite and that's just not possible. It's a whole hunk of their language, not just a side note. 
This is the closest I've ever come to squeezing it into a sound bite ;-o Dominance overview Good luck getting most "overnight experts" to read the cover, let alone the details!


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## Stonevintage

Good stuff. I have to get ready for an appt. I briefly read thru and have a personal need (GSD 1.5 yrs old) to get this concept better absorbed. 

I remember Dr. Mech issuing what many called a reversal on not necessarily dominance but pack structure. I treated his book like the bible way back It was hard for me to relearn what he explained after so many years of thinking one way.

I had the pleasure of conversing with Dr Mech a few years ago. There was a problem with a group of yahoos trying to kill off our local wolf packs by introducing Parvo infected puppies they adopted and intentionally got ill to stake out for meals for the wolves. I reported them and ended up on a conference call with F & G & Dr. Mech who looked up the teeter data for our packs and said it would not work for the yahoos because Parvo has been present here in our wild populations for some time. 

I wanted prosecution, Dr. Mech was more for education than prosecution so the local F & G held a "town hall" meeting which was packed. It was made known at that meeting that F & G had the details and the names of those involved in the "plan". 

Got to run. Thanks again for your time and all the info.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying about traits but I do believe that because many people haven't been around dogs with "extreme" traits they do attribute this to the wolf component.
> 
> The den digging behavior though - is one that I believe is an inherited trait that not many dog breeds express much anymore. The den that ours created under the house foundation was almost large enough to walk in. It's sides had old blankets and towels literally packed into the dirt sides. We never knew it existed for years because it was concealed by a wood deck.
> 
> I recently read a research paper, in "puzzle" tests the wolf demonstrates an 80% success rate where dogs of several breeds were only successful 20%. This translates into more "try" as in if your wolf/dog wants to escape your yard - he's probably going to do it lol.
> 
> I had mine from 18 days old to 13 1/3 years old. An amazing wonderful experience. *I got lucky.*


Mmmm, I wouldn't attribute it to luck. I had a number of them over the years, most mid content, a couple higher. I could call them ALL heart dogs, and none of them gave me as many issues as some of my WL GSDs, lol. And they were much easier to keep entire, due to the lower testosterone levels except during breeding season. It was an amazing run, then the state of Michigan outlawed them. I had a rescue at the time, and he still lived out his life with us. The week the law passed, my vet told me, "Well, he just turned into a German shepherd, didn't he." I know there had to be hundreds who made the same 'transformation,' even today. The problems come with poor ownership, not poor animals. Just like WL GSDs, Mals, Rotties, etc., they are NOT for everyone. I'd have another in a heartbeat.

Susan


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## Stonevintage

I would have another too if not for my age and the laws. Lol - mine was a wolf in GSD's clothing. He was always a GSD to anyone who asked as there were laws back then but they weren't enforsed and the rabies vaccine had not been deemed ineffective or really dealt with at all. 

Mine was f1 and so 50% but his look, & build were all GSD except for the coat length (and sooo soft) and his eye shape. Other hybrid owners could spot it as we could spot theirs but to JQP it was a GSD. His color was black and silver with an agouti pattern but he was timber and not tundra so leg length and lighter color were not present. 

I went thru some of the information on Solo's site yesterday. There's a comment in there about some of the extremes you may see that cracked me up - like you may find your wolf dog standing on top of the kitchen counter not just counter surfing) or you may find that they "buried a whole chicken in your laundry basket"lol


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## NormanF

The closest I want to get to owning a wolf is a GSD.

My dream dog is a Czech Wolfdog but its so rare and one needs lots of patience and tact to handle one.

Which is too much for most people and I'm just your average dog owner.


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## Stonevintage

You got that right Norman. I had a co-worker who ended up with a 3/4 wolf. Her husband was an animal control officer with our county and he picked it up as a stray. She mentioned it to me because she remembered I had one at one time. 

I asked her some questions about their housing arrangements and their fencing. She said, well - we're in a subdivision and we're working on that but for now he spends most of his time out with the neighborhood kids like our Jack Russell's do running around in the street. Arrgh!

It half killed me to have to tell her about some realities, dangers and liabilities. You would have thought they would have known. As a result they re homed that beautiful animal 3 days later. Because he was AC he knew people out in the woods that had experience and could provide a good home. He really was a stunning looking animal.


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## NormanF

Stonevintage said:


> You got that right Norman. I had a co-worker who ended up with a 3/4 wolf. Her husband was an animal control officer with our county and he picked it up as a stray. She mentioned it to me because she remembered I had one at one time.
> 
> I asked her some questions about their housing arrangements and their fencing. She said, well - we're in a subdivision and we're working on that but for now he spends most of his time out with the neighborhood kids like our Jack Russell's do running around in the street. Arrgh!
> 
> It half killed me to have to tell her about some realities, dangers and liabilities. You would have thought they would have known. As a result they re homed that beautiful animal 3 days later. Because he was AC he knew people out in the woods that had experience and could provide a good home. He really was a stunning looking animal.



A wolf-dog needs lots of space to roam around and requires a well-fenced yard to be happy. It won't tolerate living in a confined space like a dog can. If people can't provide those things, a wolf-dog isn't for them.


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## cdwoodcox

d4lilbitz said:


> I was reading the testimonials...This breeder allowed a puppy buyer to take a puppy home at 3 weeks???? Yikes...read the Elara testimonial...
> 
> Owner Testimonials - *Blue Bay Shepherds


 Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.


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## Solo93

cdwoodcox said:


> Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.


Three weeks is appropriate for mid content wolfdogs...probably not necessary for Blue Bays, but not harmful either as long as the adopter is trained. More thoughts here. age It really should be determined individually for each situation.


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## cdwoodcox

Solo93 said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Three weeks is appropriate for mid content wolfdogs...probably not necessary for Blue Bays, but not harmful either as long as the adopter is trained. More thoughts here. age It really should be determined individually for each situation.
Click to expand...

Thanks. 
And interesting read.


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## Stonevintage

It's been a long time but I do remember, the breeder wanted their pups in their homes just a couple of days before their eyes opened. I do know we never bottle fed. There was some kind of formula though (milk) with some kind of dry baby food mix and we pulverized and put tiny bits of raw minced chicken in it after we'd had our pup about 10 days.

What I do remember very well are the hundreds of pounds of chicken necks we went through! Initially, we had to strip the skin and pound the necks (to pulverize the bones) and cut up for feeding. But, at about 12 weeks that pup was "wolfing" down about 6 chicken necks a day and didn't need our help at all. We did always have to remove most of the skins because there was too much fat and made lose stools.

Chicken necks were plentiful and only 10 cents a pound. We switched to kibble at some point and that worked out fine.


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## Solo93

The eyes open around 10 or 12 days. My 1st high content came home at 10 days,so I was the first thing he ever saw. <3 

I had the wolfdogs chewing on raw backs and beef bones by 3-4 weeks but not eating much of the bone...I continued their formula for the calcium, along with yogurt and cottage cheese, and added in finely chopped raw meats of all kinds. By 5 or 6 weeks mine could throw down chicken necks and wings like nobody's business. ;-) Also, the adults would regurgitate for the later ones. Now, the dingoes were different, they were like yours in that they were 3-4 months old before they were good at it...they needed some help. I bought a meat grinder and ground up their necks & wings, and mixed it with a bit of ground beef and eggs to make a puppy-loaf. They LOVED that and they milked it as long as they could, haha.

I loved how big and strong mine got on the raw diet. I got to meet a number of their relatives, raised on kibble from the start, and they were noticeably less robust. My breeder came to visit a few times and said he wished he could afford to do the raw thing with all of his because he liked how the pups turned out for his buyers who did raw.


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## Stonevintage

I'm remembering way back so maybe we got him at 10 days. I remember holding him wrapped in a towel with wet ends wiping his face of all the formula stuck all over in his nose and face and one little eyelid was open a crack - I called my husband and that was an awesome moment we were standing embraced looking at our little wonder thinking _Yes! we can do this!


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## Stonevintage

Solo - This is our GSD/AST 6 month old pup falling right into comfort our cross. She was absolutely the perfect girl for him. When he was too young to do anything but cry or scoot around she was never more than a couple of feet away and where ever he stopped - she'd just lay down, curl around him and be right there for him.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

cdwoodcox said:


> Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.


The higher the wolf content, the earlier you need to bond with them. I had some of mine at 4 weeks, and they slept with me, each one chose to sleep curled up in the crook between my shoulder and my ear, wrapped in my hair. I also always had at least one adult when I got the youngest ones, so while they bonded with me, the adult(s) taught them respect and good canine manners.

The last couple I got were rescues, adults, and they did bond, quite well, but it didn't happen overnight.

A word to anyone thinking of getting a canine with wolf blood--the wolf blood enhances, enlarges, all the needs of what we find in the GSD--LOTS of time, LOTS of attention, LOTS of personal interaction, LOTS of space--and I can't emphasize it enough--they require at the very least the same amount of time and attention as a human child! If you like a carefree life, lots of vacations, work 10 hour days and like to go places on weekends, these are NOT the companions for you!

Susan


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## hakunamatata

Solo, with that all being said- would you recommend blue bays specifically, and could you tell me one other thing?With all equal conditions what kind of dog is more likely would attack you(if you are stranger)- GSD or a wolfdog? And what are the chances of the owner of being attacked by his wolfdog? I know that this is stupid, and it won't attack out of nowhere, but still?


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## Susan_GSD_mom

hakunamatata said:


> Solo, with that all being said- would you recommend blue bays specifically, and could you tell me one other thing?With all equal conditions what kind of dog is more likely would attack you(if you are stranger)- GSD or a wolfdog? And what are the chances of the owner of being attacked by his wolfdog? I know that this is stupid, and it won't attack out of nowhere, but still?


I can't recommend anyone that I don't know... That being said, neither wolfdog nor GSD who is raised correctly will 'attack' its family. But a true wolfdog can be more of a challenge (and need a much more knowledgeable owner) than a GSD, and a GSD can be more of a challenge than most other breeds. And, actually, the more wolf blood in a wolfdog, the more he will look to his human to protect him from others. But regardless, it takes someone with lots of dog experience, lots of knowledge of true canine behavior, lots of confidence to raise anything that actually has wolf ancestry. I don't recommend it to you.

Susan


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## Solo93

hakunamatata said:


> Solo, with that all being said- would you recommend blue bays specifically, and could you tell me one other thing?With all equal conditions what kind of dog is more likely would attack you(if you are stranger)- GSD or a wolfdog? And what are the chances of the owner of being attacked by his wolfdog? I know that this is stupid, and it won't attack out of nowhere, but still?


No stupid questions, but nothing but a fighting or manhunter breed will attack out of nowhere. Contrary to myth, the wolfdog is LESS likely to attack. They are sissies, which is one reason most people would prefer a GSD. ;-o I would not expect a Blue Bay to protect you, other than by looking imposing. At that content, I would expect very similar behaviour to a GSD. (1/4 wolf is not much.) Probably he would be a little less reserved (more submissive and ingratiating) with people than a shepherd if you socialised him well, and a little more skittish & reactive if you didn't...but in the same ballpark overall. They're not very tolerant of handler error, so do your homework beforehand, have a GREAT fence, and know how to be a strong leader without using physical force. I can't stress that enough for most dogs but especially a wolfdog of ANY content...you have to be "alpha" psychologically, but without being bullying or rough. 

I don't know your situation so I can't say if I would recommend one for you, specifically... I'd suggest you meet the parents, tell the breeder your details and ask her lots of questions. I can say that it's a breed I'd consider for myself if I didn't have a bunch of dingoes. ;-)


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## NormanF

I wouldn't recommend a wolfdog to any one but an experienced handler.

Like I said, if you like the look of a wolf, there are domestic breeds to satisfy that innate desire.

Like the previous poster said a dog like a Carolina Dog may be right up your alley.

As for the Blue Shepherd, a stunning dog and you if like that regal wolfy look, go for it!

Good luck.


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## Syaoransbear

Vicki didn't make her website, so I wouldn't base all my opinions off of the website. You'd be better off directly asking her questions.


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## cdwoodcox

I have been in contact with Vicki. Via email. She is helpful and will answer any questions one has.


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## Solo93

Syaoransbear said:


> http://www.dogster.com/dogs/994330


Oh my gosh. I looked at your Dogster page and, your shepherd dressed up like a horse is hilarious! I see you also have/had an ANCD. What do you think about her, and her line, as compared to GSDs?


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## theboyz

voodoolamb said:


> "And to be fair these dogs DO have wolf ancestory according to the breeder's sight. Supposedly 5 generations back only, but that may qualify them as Wolfdogs/wolf hybrids under local law.
> 
> I certainly would be researching the local wolf ownership law before getting one.
> 
> I do find it worth noting that this breeder does also offer mid to high content wolf dogs as well " quote]
> 
> Voodoolamb is correct people who are considering a Blue Bay need to do a lot a research, not just laws in their respective area. Each paring is **VERY** different, in the US. Some of the Blue Bays can possess close to 40% WD , whereas some are as low as 17%. Yet all are being sold under the same name. What is being sold are not dogs. Each one has a percentage of WD in them.
> 
> With such a varying range anyone should know they are not created equally and will behave very differently. With the popularity of the breed along with lack of screening a serious event is bound to take place. People who do not ask questions (Who are the parents? Their lineage, etc) will just assume they are getting a dog because they will be lead to be think a F6 is such.
> 
> In addition the Blue Bay they are purchasing will come from parents who are not tested health or temperament. When there have been health issues with other Blue Bays.


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## meicalnissyen

cdwoodcox said:


> I wouldn't say that my heart is set on a blue bay shepherd. I merely want to research the breed as a possibility.. That being said I will communicate with the breeder and do some research.


Sorry for the Necro, I kinda have a ABBS, wondering how your research went, and what came of it

I'd PM, but I just joined

Mike


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## cdwoodcox

Well, I wound up with a female German Shepherd who pushed me into Schutzhund training. So I just stopped researching BBS.


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## tc68

Ah, the Blue Bay Shepherds. I briefly toyed with the idea of getting one a couple years ago. Or the other breed...Lycan Shepherds. There's quite a few people trying to develop GSD-like breeds. You already have the Shilohs and the King Shepherds. Now we've also got the Blue Bays and the Lycans. All gorgeous dogs.

I've actually seen a King Shepherd in person. Huge "GSDs." They really look intimidating.


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## wolfmonte

I had one high content Wolf Dog once. He was extremely hard to take care of. He was always trying to escape and chewing down the leather. He wouldn't follow orders. He was extremely food aggressive. He had a very very strong bite force. I couldn't hand feed him at all. He was extremely timid and would run far away at sight of stranger regardless of socialization. He was not like dog at all. I had him for 4 months only, but I couldn't take care of him when I had accident. He destroyed my furniture and kitchen tiles. Even though he was trying to escape, I couldn't take him for walk because he was so timid and literally started jumping at site of anyone. There is extremely high chance of getting timid one, but some people are lucky who end up with a friendly wolf dog but it's extremely rare. I would not get high content again, and would not get mid content unless I had enclosure with at least 10 foot fence.


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## selzer

People who breed wolves to dogs should go to prison. But maybe that's racist. This is how I see it: What is the worst problem with GSDs? Temperament. Yep. You can love a dog with poor health, and you can manage bad structure, ears down, allergies, various coats, colors, ears down, but when you have poor temperament in the package of a German Shepherd, you have a serious liability on your hands. 

What is the main issue with poor temperament? Aggression? Not exactly. Aggression is appropriate in GSDs. Fear-aggression is not. That is when most bites actually happen. Why would anyone inject wolf, which is a wild animal and appropriately shy of humans into dogs? Upsetting. 

Hi, what are you in for? 
Robbed a gas station, and you? 

Well I bred my bitch to a wolf. 
You're a real scumbag, get away from me. 

Yeah, there should be a law.


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## germanshepowner

The dogs look beautiful but I wouldn’t take the risk. I feel like I don’t need to.. ? Everywhere I go, people ask if my GSD puppy is a wolf. I think from her height and that she’s still super lanky. We’re good here


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## Frisco19

selzer said:


> People who breed wolves to dogs should go to prison. But maybe that's racist. This is how I see it: What is the worst problem with GSDs? Temperament. Yep. You can love a dog with poor health, and you can manage bad structure, ears down, allergies, various coats, colors, ears down, but when you have poor temperament in the package of a German Shepherd, you have a serious liability on your hands.
> 
> What is the main issue with poor temperament? Aggression? Not exactly. Aggression is appropriate in GSDs. Fear-aggression is not. That is when most bites actually happen. Why would anyone inject wolf, which is a wild animal and appropriately shy of humans into dogs? Upsetting.
> 
> Hi, what are you in for?
> Robbed a gas station, and you?
> 
> Well I bred my bitch to a wolf.
> You're a real scumbag, get away from me.
> 
> Yeah, there should be a law.


I completely agree on fear aggression. My last GSD had fear aggression. When he just didn't like someone, he would bite. Not a full out bark attack, but a circle, sniff, chomp. Usually a door to door salesman or delivery driver.

Curious, what is your connection with racism and breeding wolves to dogs? I don't get the connection? Sure, it's wrong, but racist?


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> People who breed wolves to dogs should go to prison. But maybe that's racist. This is how I see it: What is the worst problem with GSDs? Temperament. Yep. You can love a dog with poor health, and you can manage bad structure, ears down, allergies, various coats, colors, ears down, but when you have poor temperament in the package of a German Shepherd, you have a serious liability on your hands.
> 
> What is the main issue with poor temperament? Aggression? Not exactly. Aggression is appropriate in GSDs. Fear-aggression is not. That is when most bites actually happen. Why would anyone inject wolf, which is a wild animal and appropriately shy of humans into dogs? Upsetting.
> 
> Hi, what are you in for?
> Robbed a gas station, and you?
> 
> Well I bred my bitch to a wolf.
> You're a real scumbag, get away from me.
> 
> Yeah, there should be a law.


The problem with cross breeding anything is that no one takes their well bred, titled dog and breeds it to a wolf. So you get questionable breeding coupled with wild animals. And frankly the wolves that are used may be questionable to start with since we are using captive animals from unknown genetics.
Wolves by nature have a definite aversion to humans, and are adept at keeping out of sight and off our radars. Why anyone would think that crossing that with a dog was smart is beyond me.
Even the husky/wolf crosses that I worked with were hit and miss. A naturally aloof breed like a GSD plus a wolf just seems like a recipe for disaster.


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