# Please explain "Dog reactive and Fear Reactive"



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Been following a few posts regarding dog reactivity and dogs that react out of fear.

I have a couple questions.

1) Does getting attacked as a puppy automatically create a reactive dog?
I ask this because of a recent thread, and the huge concern about a puppy getting attacked by an older dog, and ultimately becoming dog reactive.

2) Does "dog reactive" automatically translate to aggression?

I ask this because Kira was attacked by an older dog, and even though she isn't aggressive, she does get "puffy" when she sees other dogs. I always correct and distract, and the result has been much shorter "reactions", to a point where there's an almost immediate retraction from her current state.

Carmen once described a fear response as fight or flight.

So if a dog is attacked during the imprint stage, and ultimately ends up afraid, what determines the "fight or flight" response?

Why would some dogs become aggressive, and others run away?


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Many dogs will flight > fight but simply cannot because of leash boundaries, being in a small enclosed space, or when you're being charged at you probably get a little tunnel visioned..

Usually, though. When a dog is attacked or otherwise creates a negative association with other dogs, they simply become reactive. Which is a conditioned emotional response to a trigger. Reactive means they reacted.. Doesn't have to be in an 'aggressive' way, just something out of the ordinary, you know? It could be they get submissive, growl, raise their hackles, bark. None of it means they actually have intentions of hurting another dog or acting in an aggressive way, lots of times its a big show (that has the possibility of a bite pursuing if the owner is negligent to their dogs body language or signals).

Aggression is usually from genetics or not being socialized as a puppy. For instance, someone who got that cute puppy and left it in the backyard. But un-socialization, too, is fear itself. The dog has never been introduced to the stimuli and constantly over threshold because they do not know how to act and have only barked at things behind the fence out of frustration/excitement/whatever it may be.

Does your dog being attacked make it reactive ?
No.
What makes a dog reactive is when the owner gets scared.
Yes, seeing your dog get attacked IS scary thing.. Many owners get super protective afterwards and stop socializing completely. This is BAD because the last encounter the dog had with another dog was super scary. They won't forget that. Socialization is an ongoing process and after your dog gets attacked you need to move on (if there are no major injuries and the other dog is now managed). Go for a walk, play tug / fetch, and don't make a big deal of it. When you start making a deal of it, then they do. The owners usually GIVE their dogs a reason to be reactive.

Being 'dog reactive' does not mean aggression. Unless your dog has bitten someone/something (and meant business!) then I would not deem them aggressive. And if they HAVENT been bitten yet.. Then your dog must have amazing threshold and give all appropriate signals. Which, aggressive dogs usually do not take time in doing.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I like the above explanation, and I'll give a quick example of Ky's experience. 

When she was about 4 months old, she was "chased" by a cain corso. The CC had a muzzle on and he ran right after Ky. She ran for her life ... hid under a bench and the other people (who knew Kyleigh) wouldn't let the other dog near her. 

By the time I got there, (about 30 seconds later ... she ran A LONG way) the CC was leashed by someone else and when Ky saw me she ran right up to me. I didn't go all "ooh, poor baby" in a high-pitched voice. BUT, I did give some pats, and I checked her out at the same time. She was fine. 

I was there with a couple of friends ... put Ky on leash and we walked back over to the "play area" we had set up with our friends, and took her off leash. About a minute later she was running with her friends as if nothing happened. 

To this day when she sees THAT dog she will avoid him. She'll either do a wide circle around him, or she'll come up to me and sit at my feet. As soon as she does that I know who's arrived at the park. 

She isn't however "breed aggressive" b/c there's another CC that Ky loves and she physically throws herself at him ... it's hilarious and adorable at the same time. 

I'm not sure how much of it is genetic or "handler" ... but I know I did "my part" and thankfully, the genetic part took over and we have no issues.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I like _*angryrainbow's *_response too.

With fight of flight, you probably know the physiological changes in your dog, more adrenaline, stress hormones, blood is restricted in some areas of the body and pumped into the muscles, eyes dilate, increased heart rate, etc. Your dog is ready for action, so if your dog can't do flight if it's on leash or restricted it will probably fight.

Some may disagree with me, but I believe our dogs have great memories and being attacked at anytime, not just a puppy will trigger a fear response later in life if in a similar situation. For example, our previous dog was attacked at the dog park, resulting in bleeding wounds. After that she never really enjoyed the park and would stick next to me like glue, however she was happy to play with dogs in other environments. 

The hackles response, Molly and our previous dog almost always get hackles up but does not lead to aggression, so this is hard to read for me.

Have you tried some positive reinforcement when Kira gets puffy when seeing other dogs? Like giving her treats or toy and giving her a positive association? Actually you'd want to give her treats before she gets puffy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My dog was attacked when he was a puppy and it was bad. I thought I was going to lose him(the Rott had his whole head in his mouth). As nervous as I was I moved forward with him. He was attacked by a Rott and in his puppy class the teacher brought her Rott...it was either going to freak him out or make things better, it made it better. Within the week he was around another Rott...at first he was afraid, but we told him it was okay, left it at that and once he realized he was safe he was back to himself. 3 years later he loves other dogs, I've never seen him react to a dog in any other way then being happy. There was a lot of positive rewarding, not to much babying, and me calming down..all of that together makes it work.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I mostly agree with angryrainbow's response. I think I maybe place a little more importance on genetics when it comes to why some dogs become reactive and others don't. 

To me, the big difference between reactivity and aggression is that a reactive dog is usually acting out of fear or annoyance, while the aggressive dog is dealing with an entirely different drive. An aggressive dog maybe sees that other dog as a threat, but it's more a "Hey, get off my turf!" type of threat than an actual fear. A reactive dog is acting out of (perceived) self-defense because he is honestly terrified of whatever it is that's setting him off, or he's so under-socialized that he can't tolerate normal behavior from other dogs.

It is important here to note that a major definition of "reactive" is basically "abnormal or excessive response." You can push pretty much any dog to react aggressively or fearfully in the right situations, so "reactive" is dependent on a dog's expected behavior in normal, non-threatening situations.

Also agreed that reactivity doesn't always manifest as aggression. A dog who cries and runs away in response to normal stimuli is just as reactive as the one who bites. True aggression, on the other hand, will never manifest as the dog running away or otherwise acting less than aggressively. Again, the aggressive dog isn't necessarily frightened in the traditional sense.

A reactive dog can absolutely be created, but some dogs are more prone to it than others. I have seen plenty of dogs attacked by others as puppies, who were not reactive afterwards. And then others are reactive to dogs without ever having had a bad experience.

I do think the one surefire way to create a reactive dog is a lack of socialization, but I think (based on my experience) that if you take a dog with a naturally strong temperament, lock him up in a crate and never let him see anything for the first 2 years of his life, and then start socializing him, it will go slower but you'll eventually get him over his reactive behavior.

Aggression is the same way. A truly dog-aggressive dog is born that way and will never get over it, although with training he may learn to tolerate other dogs to an extent. By the same token, training and experiences can help bring out the aggression in an otherwise friendly dog, but you can't create it in a totally submissive dog. Think of police dogs for this--they're obviously not killing machines, but a lot of dogs that wash out do so because they're not aggressive enough naturally.



angryrainbow said:


> Does your dog being attacked make it reactive ?
> No.
> What makes a dog reactive is when the owner gets scared.


This is my main disagreement with angryrainbow (though the advice immediately following on how to handle the aftermath of a dog fight is great!).  I agree that this definitely happens--owners can easily make a bad situation into a much worse one by not handling it well! But I think that, short of avoiding all socialization afterwards, usually it is more dependent on the dog's natural temperament. If your dog is fearful and reactive by nature, he's going to respond worse to a bad situation, while a dog with a stronger temperament might just shrug it off no matter what the owner does.

In practice, though, it doesn't matter that much if your dog has a weak temperament or is just temporarily scared, because you deal with them the same way. You keep socializing the animal while being careful to not let them get over threshold and act out.

I also want to mention that minor dog fights (I usually refer to them as "squabbles" to differentiate them from serious "I'm going to kill you!" fights) aren't really a big deal. They happen when a puppy or a rude dog keeps pestering a dog with a normal temperament, or over food resources, etc. These fights look and sound scary, and may even occasionally result in minor injuries (scratches, once I saw a dog bite his own tongue, etc.) but aren't life-threatening and don't necessarily imply that either dog is aggressive or reactive. Normally the "attacked" dog will just get the picture and leave the winner alone.

Still they shouldn't be allowed/encouraged and management should be used to prevent them when dogs are together (separating the dogs if one is annoying the other, handling feeding time and treats in such a way that the dogs don't feel the need/have the chance to fight, etc.). If it happens too often, it can escalate or lead to other problems.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Been following a few posts regarding dog reactivity and dogs that react out of fear.
> 
> I have a couple questions.
> 
> ...



Genetics and "nerve" of the dog!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1>>> my dog was attacked when he was a puppy. he's fine
when he's around other animals (cats, birds, cows, horses, 
other dogs, etc.

2>>>> dog reactive relates to socializing and training in my opinon.

i also think some dogs have stronger nerves so what happens
as a pup doesn't effect them as much as a weak nerve pup.
i also think a weak nerve pup can be helped through training
and socializing.




Anthony8858 said:


> Been following a few posts regarding dog reactivity and dogs that react out of fear.
> 
> I have a couple questions.
> 
> ...


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> This is my main disagreement with angryrainbow (though the advice immediately following on how to handle the aftermath of a dog fight is great!).  I agree that this definitely happens--owners can easily make a bad situation into a much worse one by not handling it well! But I think that, short of avoiding all socialization afterwards, usually it is more dependent on the dog's natural temperament. If your dog is fearful and reactive by nature, he's going to respond worse to a bad situation, while a dog with a stronger temperament might just shrug it off no matter what the owner does.


Yes genetics and temperament do play a large role.. Just like how some dogs can bounce back quickly while others may not be so forgiving..
One of my neighbors has a 7 year old female GSD. They took her to the park everyday when she was a pup, then a larger dog trampled on her when she was 4/5 months old. They didn't want to hurt her as she was their 'baby' (think of the mothers who shelter their kids from germs and crap) so they stopped taking her out and she became a 'backyard dog' that is reactive to everything.

While that scenario was VERY extreme, the pup didnt even get scratched.. just yelped.. The owners got protective and were doing what they thought was right.. The dog had / has plenty of potential.. They just do not want to own up to their mistakes and still blame everything on the dog at the park.

Then you get the people that wait until their dog is bigger and able to throw their weight around.. Or those who simply stop socializing.

You could even be doing everything right.. But then you get tense when that large pitbull (Nothing against pitbulls) comes trotting towards you and your pup.. You grip your leash a little tighter and your muscles stiffen.. Many people dont even notice they're doing that. But your dog does. And everything can go south from there.

But you are correct. There are dogs that take it with a grain of salt.. Then there are some that take the salt by the boat loads. It does come down to knowing your dog and being aware (of everything)


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

This has been interesting for me to read as Stella is quite reactive. I am guessing it is out of fear, not true killer instinct. I never let it get to the point of finding out if she would actually bite or not. 
One of the trainers I go to said that it is better to body block or distract etc your dog because pulling on the leash usually creates more reaction. That is how drive is built in dogs. I never actually thought about this before but it makes sense. 
How would you know if your dog would carry out its threat or if it is all just "talk"?


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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

> How would you know if your dog would carry out its threat or if it is all just "talk"?


To me, a leash aggressive dog is saying loud and clear that they are stressed by the situation. If by all "talk" you mean that your dog wouldn't bite another dog or person and draw blood, that seems a bit far to me. I would tend to take the leash aggression extremely seriously. I would also continue vigorously with training and careful exposure to the things your dog is reactive toward with the end goal being no more reactivity. 

Plus, how would you test your theory of if your dog would bite or not? Subjecting "test" people or dogs to a dog with aggression issues is not fair! And, you wouldn't know for sure that your dog wouldn't bite until you had many, many trials.

I think you are better off treating leash reactivity/aggression (barking, lunging, growling, snapping) as serious aggression and slowly building your dog's confidence with one individual at a time in a systematic way using treats to form a positive association starting at a safe distance. To me, this is the lowest risk method of training your dog and the kindest to your dog.

Good luck!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> 1) Does getting attacked as a puppy automatically create a reactive dog?


Not necessarily. Much depends on the dog's native temperament. Some puppies can recover from an attack and be none the worse, if they have very strong nerve and a lot of natural confidence, high stress thresholds. As long as the owner doesn't let it happen repeatedly, a strong pup will probably be fine. Other pups with weaker temperament will be shaken to the core after an attack and become fearful, reactive and possibly aggressive.



> Does "dog reactive" automatically translate to aggression?


A dog that growls, barks, and carries on when it sees another dog is not necessarily going to attack if given the chance. Half the time, it's all bluff and meant to say "Get away from me!" However, if a dog learns to solve his problems through aggression "I'm gonna take you out before you can take me out", you have a serious problem.



> So if a dog is attacked during the imprint stage, and ultimately ends up afraid, what determines the "fight or flight" response?
> 
> Why would some dogs become aggressive, and others run away?


Temperament, nerve, confidence, thresholds... all of which the dog is born with (or without). Also, past experience (if any) may determine the dog's behavior in a fight-or-flight situation.

What determines the "fight or flight" response has to do with adrenaline and other stress hormones. That is mostly controlled by genetics, but also by past experience. With some dogs, it takes a lot to get them to the point where they feel the *need* to fight or flee--another dog could be barking in its face and the pup just wants to play--he doesn't see a threat. With others, it takes practically nothing to get them into a fit of terror. You just have to know your dog, whether the temperament and nerves are strong or weak.

There is a rather famous experiment done in Russia with foxes on fur farms--you may have heard of it. A fur farmer wanted to raise a fox that was easier to handle, so he bred only the friendliest (least fearful) foxes. No extra attention was given and the foxes were no more used to people--the temperament change had to be genetic, not learned. So, the foxes that cowered in the back of the cage and snarled were made into coats, and the foxes that did not were bred.

Over many generations, the foxes became naturally friendlier, until they were downright doglike. What was interesting (and this is only a side note to the discussion) is that they started to APPEAR doglike as well. The ears became floppy, the tails became shorter and held over the back, the coats became spotted. Their heads became smaller, their bones finer. These were all physical traits that were not selected for, but they came about naturally as a result of "tameness". 

The key to the temperament and physical changes, they found out, is the production of adrenaline and other stress hormones that trigger the "fight or flight" response--the tame foxes produced less. It appears that these hormones are linked to certain physical traits other than temperament, and they occur during early development of the embryo.

There is now a pet trade in these tame foxes from Russia, if you want one I think they are around $10K each.

Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I would never want to test whether it is all talk or not!!!!! Not only wouldn't I want to put another dog in that position, but I wouldn't want to have Stella get hurt either!!!! She is fine with people, just not some dogs...
In the past we did a combination of positive reinforcement, and corrections with the prong.....It worked well for us....


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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

I'm glad that the training has worked well for you ! That is always good to hear!


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## blueoctgal (Jun 6, 2012)

pulling on the leash usually creates more reaction

That is exactly what my trainer told me - in fact, if you can correct _into_ the object that allows the dog to self correct back from it. Personally, I found it a hard concept to do as that is the direction he is moving while all buffed up.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

My dog was raised with dogs and lived with her breeder. The breeder decided to rehome her at a little less than a year. Where she went already had 2 small dogs. These dogs terrorized my dog for a week and kept her banished to the sofa. When they realized it wouldnt work, she was given to me. When she came to me, the 1st night I thought she'd kill my dogs if she could and we had to put her away in a kennel in my bedroom. The next morning, I walked her out of my room on a leash and it was like she was their best friend. All went well, never an issue.

However, she is dog reactive and I never know when she will try to bite another dog. Sometimes she ignores them, other times she will leap without warning. So I always am aware when we are out. Even in Schutzhund training we had issues.

She was raised with dogs, so I think the two little dogs made her reactive. She really dislikes small dogs. People do not bother her. A stranger can walk by me in the car or come upnto the car and she won't flinch. A dog, she will jump against the window.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Pretty sure I got my answer today on aggressive or fearful, oddly enough. Went sledding with family and brought Stella along on a long line. When we were leaving and getting into the car, some dogs were approaching. She did her barking nonsense. I heard the other dog owner calling her dog and I recognized the name from the doggie day care that Stella goes to. Turns out it is a dog Stella knows and has played with. So I asked if it was ok to let Stella out to say hello. She was fine with it as both her dogs were friendly and have played with Stella at the day care. Well, Stella was terrified. Tail between legs, trying to creep between my legs. The other dogs pretty much ignored her and just were playing around. The other owner suggested we go in the field with all of them. One of her dogs even tried to engage in play with Stella but she just was so scared. Not sure what to make of this. Could the fact that she had been charged by several dogs the past few weeks make her this afraid? She had gotten to the point of being able to meet other friendly dogs with no problem and accepting play overtures by them. WTH????? Or have I been over correcting her since the few bad experiences and made her afraid of other dogs?????


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Keep in mind that dogs don't generalize, or don't generalize like we do anyway.  Stella may have learned that dogs are safe in some situations (doggy day care) but isn't sure they're safe in all situations.

I personally don't like using corrections on reactive dogs in most cases, because I think it is fear-based the vast majority of the time, and corrections run the risk of making it worse. If the dog thinks she's protecting herself and gets corrected for doing so, then she's learning that the whole situation is scary--she can't even warn the scary dog to stay away, but it's still scary so now she's defenseless!

Instead, I like to use positive methods and desensitization to teach the dog that there's no reason to be afraid. That means a bunch of controlled and careful training, but it creates a strong foundation and pays off hugely in the end. Building up confidence (as opposed to correcting an unwanted behavior) is really the only way to go with a fear reactive dog, IMO.

edit: in other words, corrections might help extinguish the unwanted behavior (barking), but they don't fix the root cause. I have a reactive dog who was corrected extensively for barking/growling and it actually made things substantially worse, because now he goes right to biting if his body language is ignored. It makes for a very unpredictable and high-risk dog, or did until I did a lot of desensitization and positive training with him!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

RowdyDogs said:


> Keep in mind that dogs don't generalize, or don't generalize like we do anyway.  Stella may have learned that dogs are safe in some situations (doggy day care) but isn't sure they're safe in all situations.
> 
> I personally don't like using corrections on reactive dogs in most cases, because I think it is fear-based the vast majority of the time, and corrections run the risk of making it worse. If the dog thinks she's protecting herself and gets corrected for doing so, then she's learning that the whole situation is scary--she can't even warn the scary dog to stay away, but it's still scary so now she's defenseless!
> 
> ...


This makes so much sense, and is clearly a reason why so many of us don't get it right. 
Very thin line. . 


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> This makes so much sense, and is clearly a reason why so many of us don't get it right.
> Very thin line. .


That's one reason why I really harp on positive training on these forums.  It's actually really hard to mess up with positive training once you get the hang of it (the big hurdle for most people is learning to manage their dogs so they never have a chance to misbehave/react poorly). I mean, you can definitely hit road blocks and not make progress if you're not doing it quite right, but you're probably not going to be making the behavior worse or creating other unintended consequences for further down the line.

Basically, positive training methods teach your dog that you're the person he needs to listen to (for his own benefit, even!), and builds trust and confidence. Using corrections correctly can lead to the same result, but using ill-timed or inappropriate corrections can very quickly go in the other direction. For a less experienced handler, I think clicker training or similar methods is the way to go in virtually any situation.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RowdyDogs said:


> That's one reason why I really harp on positive training on these forums.  It's actually really hard to mess up with positive training once you get the hang of it (the big hurdle for most people is learning to manage their dogs so *they never have a chance to misbehave/react poorly)*. I mean, you can definitely hit road blocks and not make progress if you're not doing it quite right, but you're probably not going to be making the behavior worse or creating other unintended consequences for further down the line.
> 
> Basically, positive training methods teach your dog that you're the person he needs to listen to (for his own benefit, even!), and builds trust and confidence. Using corrections correctly can lead to the same result, but using ill-timed or inappropriate corrections can very quickly go in the other direction. For a less experienced handler, I think clicker training or similar methods is the way to go in virtually any situation.


I would love to find out how to do this - "..they never have a chance to misbehave/react poorly).."

Could you, or someone else who is a "positive only" advocate, PLEASE explain in detail how to achieve this? 

*Is this sort of what you mean?* When I asked my trainer at the local obedience club class I was attending a while ago about how to stop my dog from "counter surfing" looking for something to eat - Her answer was "Don't leave anything on the counter!"!

Is that it? Do not allow my dog to be tempted whatsoever - then he will never misbehave, right? 

If we are using treats (rewards) couldn't a not very skilled trainer end up rewarding the wrong thing or at the wrong time and actually Reinforce the very behavior that we are trying to get the dog to stop?

Just curious how the dog can learn what is improper or wrong behavior if we never tell them that.

And what if a bad unwanted behavior is "self rewarding" to the dog and he/she would rather that reward than whatever click or treat or other rreward that we can give them? And please don't trot out the "higher value treat" that so many Pos trainers seem to rely on.

My dog has turned his nose up on the highest treats (ie real raw meat) to do things that he wants to do at the moment!

Thanks for your explanations and responses about the POS approach.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I would love to find out how to do this - "..they never have a chance to misbehave/react poorly).."
> 
> Could you, or someone else who is a "positive only" advocate, PLEASE explain in detail how to achieve this?


I think it would be impossible to keep a pup/dog from ever having the chance to misbehave/react poorly. But I do think that we (as the handler) can set the pup/dog up to succeed easier than we can correct a behavior that is unwanted. 

An example would be a dog/pup reacting to a distraction. For the sake of this conversation, lets say another dog. If a handler is walking their dog and sees their dog begin to focus on another dog, the handler redirects at that moment. Before the dog has a chance to react to the other dog. The mistake would be if the handler waits until their dog reacts to the other dog by lunging or barking. Then it's more difficult to change the behavior of their dog. 

Potty training. It's eaiser to set the pup up to succeed by taking the pup out to potty often. Reward the good behavior. It's more difficult to potty train if the handler allows the pup to potty in an unwanted area (in the house) because the handler waits till they see the 'signs' that the pup has to go outside. 

Counter surfing. Same as trash diving. If there is a high value object in the trash or on the counter, I'll help my dogs succeed by moving it out of their reach. Something of lower value (bread etc.) will be ignored. Put a chicken on the counter and it's like crack to an addict. I know this. Same as if a stray dog comes into my yard. My dogs will react. 

I try to use positive only training. But I have my limits. There are some behaviors that I will correct.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I tried something this morning. 

Every morning at 8am, a neighbor walks her 2 Maltese dogs past my home. Kira waits for them, and goes bonkers at the window. 
My normal routine, is to call her off and make her lay near me somewhere in the house. This usually calms her and gets the job done. 

Today, I decided to try some gentle persuasion. As soon as those dogs got close, and as soon as Kira saw them, I offered a treat after a "down". I allowed her to watch them, and every time she took her attention away from the dogs , I timed a treat under her nose. 
She ended up never making a sound, and just looked away for the most part. 

How did I do?

Was this a good approach?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lilie said:


> I think it would be impossible to keep a pup/dog from ever having the chance to misbehave/react poorly. But I do think that we (as the handler) can set the pup/dog up to succeed easier than we can correct a behavior that is unwanted.
> 
> An example would be a dog/pup reacting to a distraction. For the sake of this conversation, lets say another dog. If a handler is walking their dog and sees their dog begin to focus on another dog, the handler redirects at that moment. Before the dog has a chance to react to the other dog. The mistake would be if the handler waits until their dog reacts to the other dog by lunging or barking. Then it's more difficult to change the behavior of their dog.
> 
> ...


 
Does that mean that you don't "proof" your dogs behavior?

I.E. You (and/or other Pos trainers) don't believe in and don't follow the approach of Teach, "Distract" and then "Proof" a dog's behavior?

If one never "tempts" the dog (after you are sure that he/she knows a behavior, then how can one be sure that he/she is going to be reliable when it is needed?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

YES Anthony You got her 'before' she had the chance to go bonkers..

I swear dogs can tell time, and I also think, for examply, say Kira does this every single time those maltese go by at the same time and gets the same reaction from you..

So now it's becoming ingrained, the maltese are coming at 8, I'm going to go bonkers, Dad is going to call me off and I go lay down elsewhere...It's 'ingrained'...

With that, I'll bet if you do what you did this morning, THAT is going to become ingrained and routine, and better than the first scenerio:

Make sense??


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Does that mean that you don't "proof" your dogs behavior?
> 
> I.E. You (and/or other Pos trainers) don't believe in and don't follow the approach of Teach, "Distract" and then "Proof" a dog's behavior?


I think life proofs your dog. Life will make sure someone decides to eat dinner in the living room and places their plate on the coffee table and goes back into the kitchen for a drink. 

Life will make sure you don't notice Fido charging out of his yard towards you. 

Life will make sure you take your dog to Petco and your dog smells another dog's urine soaking in the food sacks. 

Life will help you realize if you've created a solid foundation for your dog or if you need to continue to build on it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I think life proofs your dog. Life will make sure someone decides to eat dinner in the living room and places their plate on the coffee table and goes back into the kitchen for a drink.
> 
> Life will make sure you don't notice Fido charging out of his yard towards you.
> 
> ...


So THAT'S why he always wants to sniff the corners of those sacks! LOL


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I tried something this morning.
> 
> Every morning at 8am, a neighbor walks her 2 Maltese dogs past my home. Kira waits for them, and goes bonkers at the window.
> My normal routine, is to call her off and make her lay near me somewhere in the house. This usually calms her and gets the job done.
> ...


Sounds great! Now you can use the same approach when walking with Kira, before she gets reactive when she sees another dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

In my opinion and experience there is no tried and true method to deal with reactivity posative or negative. It all depends on the dog and its motivation for the behavior.

My current little project is a classic case of genetic weak nerve.

She sees another dog while wlking on the leash she focuses on it head up ears forward, tail lashing, the closer the dog get her head drops growls and then lunges. Same reaction every time, if I get her at the right moment a quick correction throws her off and stilts her escelation. If we sit/stand close to the object of her reactivity she relaxes after a minute or so and then wants to play. Every time no matter what type of dog.

Take her to the dog park, throw the E Collar (She is collar conditioned) on her let her loose. She spots a dog hackles lunges, gets stimmed breaks off, even apporaching another dog to intensly leads to a stim, she always breaks off the approach then re approaches and uses her nose properly. Then she wants to play, same pattern as when we are on leash.
Her overwhelming response is exitement mixed with an equel if not greater dose of insecurity. Which leads to the lunging growling etc.

Her excitement level when around other dogs generally precludes the use of treats as her fixation on the other dog or dogs is to high, only a correction can refocus her attention. Then she is open to an alternate message.

People is a bit different. Generally she is much more sharp indoors, so I will use her responses in those settings as she generally ignores people outside.
Any individual apporaching us leads to growls, or if it was allowed an abbreviated lunge. Correction of this reaction yeilded a submissive yet still fear aggressive dog. As in the dog is in a down but still hackling growling. There is no tail waging in this response, instead you see hackles up, ears back, head low and tail tucked. 
I diagnose this as fear / insecurity
Once the object of her reaction has stopped moving and is relatively still she is now (with a lot of work is able to relax) as in sniff the person, take treats do some light OB etc.
I mainly treat this reaction exclusively with treats, as in as soon as she relaxes I give her a treat, then the person in question gives her a treat. We are now moving to having the stranger talk loudly, move suddenly, move arms around etc. Any aggressive response recieves a light correction more of a redirection, then once she relaxes immidiately get rewarded by myself and the helper. Also, I will do light OB around the helper then hold the treat right against the helper or at the helpers feet so she make posative associations.

These are just some examples, I have found that a mix of correction and +R timed appropriately is the most effective approach. 

I dont know why people insist on applying absolutes to dog training simply to suit their own biases and perception of how the world should be. IMO use what works plain and simple, most world class trainer/handlers use a healthy mix of both approaches. Political correctness has no place in working with dogs as they unlike human beings are immune to BS.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I too tried a little experiment today. One of the issues with Stella is her barking at the cat or dog in my neighbor's yard. Lately I have been using an e-collar, under a trainer's guidance, to stop this unwanted behavior. Well, I forgot to put the collar on this afternoon. And of course she started her usual nonsense. If she does not have the collar on I generally have to go out and get her. This usually means me chasing her around the yard until I either catch her or I can try to redirect her to play ball. Both of which are so much fun for her!!!! Today I grabbed a piece of salami (she loves it, and rarely gets it) and as I approached her, waved the salami around. She came over, but not too close. I let her take a bit of the salami and took a few steps back towards the house, continuing to wave the salami. She was very undecided which way to go....bark mode or salami. Every time she turned away from the other dog or cat across the street, she got a bit of salami. It took us some time to work our way across the yard but in the end we did it. So positive training does work....to a degree. If she really wanted to continue barking, the salami would not have interested her. I have had filet mignon in my hand to entice her in the past and she chose to bark.....


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Does that mean that you don't "proof" your dogs behavior?
> 
> I.E. You (and/or other Pos trainers) don't believe in and don't follow the approach of Teach, "Distract" and then "Proof" a dog's behavior?
> 
> If one never "tempts" the dog (after you are sure that he/she knows a behavior, then how can one be sure that he/she is going to be reliable when it is needed?


Positive training absolutely involves proofing your dog. If you set up a good foundation and gradually proof the dog, mistakes will be minimal. But yes, you test your dog and teach them to obey no matter what distractions are around.

I actually don't proof my dogs any differently using positive training methods than I did when I used more traditional ones. It's just that my response to their mistakes may be different.



codmaster said:


> I would love to find out how to do this - "..they never have a chance to misbehave/react poorly).."


In that post, I was specifically thinking about reactivity, since it's the topic of the thread.  I have dealt with multiple reactive dogs and I think it's very easy to manage a dog so they literally never go over threshold, which is where the "bad behavior" appears, or at least it is once you learn their body language and how to know when to back off. I'm sorry for the confusion there, my post wasn't very clear.

I'd love to be able to make it so my dogs never misbehave, but unfortunately I think that would require supernatural powers of some sort.  However, I do manage them to minimize their opportunities and set them up for success, as another poster said. I think all good trainers do that, but I don't think it is always taught enough in traditional training classes (or at least the ones I have been to, which is many).

I don't know what to tell you on the "nothing is high-value" thing, though. I've found dogs who would turn up their nose at treats, but I've never found a dog I couldn't find _something_ to motivate them with. Sometimes it requires a lot of creativity, though. I also have had trouble motivating a dog away from a specific behavior when they weren't getting enough of an outlet for their drive to do that, but when I gave them an outlet it ceased to be a problem (obviously a huge oversimplification).

My other point would be that this is where management comes in. For example, when I first got one of my heelers, all he could think about was chasing our livestock. Once he was on it, nothing could call him off. So what we did was manage his life so he never could start chasing (keeping him leashed to me or in the yard), rewarding him for ignoring the goats even when they were playing king-of-the-mountain (at first we had to be on the other side of the yard for me to keep his attention), and giving him an appropriate outlet for his herding drive (herding classes, then once he learned enough, actually helping us work stock). Within about 6 months he was totally trustworthy around livestock and will only go after them when given the command to do so. So there was nothing more high value than chasing the goats, but he learned that there was an appropriate time to do so.

As for counter-surfing, that is one problem I don't have an answer to except management! Seriously, "crate your dogs/don't leave stuff unsupervised where they can get it" is the advice I've gotten from like 99% of trainers, regardless of their methods. The only other solutions I've heard of involve webcams and remote corrections (sounds like way more hassle than putting my food in the cupboard), or aversives like hot peppers being left there (which has never worked on any of the 10 or so dogs I've tried it on in my lifetime LOL). If you've found another solution, I'd love to hear it. 

I will also say that I do use some mild corrections, combined with positive techniques. Mostly regarding counter surfing/litterbox raiding and the like. I use positive training to teach my dogs what I want (stay out of the cat room/all 4 paws on the floor in the kitchen please), but if I see a dog jump up at the counter or start sneaking into the cat room, I'll call them on it. I have to remind one of my dogs, "Bandit, quit!" once or twice a month because that cat poop is just too tempting.

Hope that makes sense, I'm not always the best writer on subjects like this.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> I too tried a little experiment today. One of the issues with Stella is her barking at the cat or dog in my neighbor's yard. Lately I have been using an e-collar, under a trainer's guidance, to stop this unwanted behavior. Well, I forgot to put the collar on this afternoon. And of course she started her usual nonsense. If she does not have the collar on I generally have to go out and get her. This usually means me chasing her around the yard until I either catch her or I can try to redirect her to play ball. Both of which are so much fun for her!!!! Today I grabbed a piece of salami (she loves it, and rarely gets it) and as I approached her, waved the salami around. She came over, but not too close. I let her take a bit of the salami and took a few steps back towards the house, continuing to wave the salami. She was very undecided which way to go....bark mode or salami. Every time she turned away from the other dog or cat across the street, she got a bit of salami. It took us some time to work our way across the yard but in the end we did it. So positive training does work....to a degree. If she really wanted to continue barking, the salami would not have interested her. I have had filet mignon in my hand to entice her in the past and she chose to bark.....


I missed this post before typing out my reply above, but I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding. If she was barking and you used the salami to lure her to you, it was really more of a bribe than a reward. I'll occasionally use bribes or lures in training (I still think one of the easiest ways to teach basic behaviors like "down" is to get them to follow a treat ), but not as a means to stop an unwanted behavior.

This is what I mean by management. My goal would be to not give her a chance to start barking (at least at first, as discussed above--eventually of course you want a dog who can be out in your yard, where she'll have a chance to bark!). Once she's started to bark, you have to remove her from the situation and then try again later with more control.

I also want to add that I'm not against other methods of training, and I am not sure I'd be considered strictly positive. I train all of my dogs for obedience/basic behavior using clicker training, but I use more of a mix in the herding and SAR work we do. Just so no one feels like I'm arguing or calling them out.


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