# Dirty in the blind!



## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

I need some advice on how to clean up a dog that is dirty in the blind.
He goes in, tags the sleeve then does a hold and bark. He will go in clean with a little back pressure from the line, then I slack the line and he is clean the whole time. He is a tough dog with a lot of drive, I just need to make it clear to him that going in dirty is wrong.

What methods have you found to work in this situation?

They want to introduce an e-collar to him which I am fine with an e-collar, but my dog is very equipment savvy and I don't want him to become dependent on the collar. Any advice here?


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

I am just starting to get my feet wet in IPO so I don't have any advice for you.

May I ask what "dirty in the blind" means? I know what blind is and I can guess at what you mean but am not really sure.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I'm guessing he doesn't want the dog to touch the helper when he comes around the blind (but I know nothing about IPO so I could be wrong). I will be following. I find this all very interesting.


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## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

Mister C said:


> I am just starting to get my feet wet in IPO so I don't have any advice for you.
> 
> May I ask what "dirty in the blind" means? I know what blind is and I can guess at what you mean but am not really sure.


He goes into the blind and bites the helper. He shouldn't do that at all. He needs to enter the blind and go straight into the hold and bark without touching the helper.


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## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

I am not sure if the video will open for anyone. But here is a video of him entering the blind with a little leash help. This was taken back in Feb./Mar.

 Kato Hold & Bark


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I would send him in straight into the blind (not around like a regular search), and have a long check line attached to something that will correct him (lets say a prong). As long as a hard correction on the prong won't shut him down...right before he gets to the helper and tries to get dirty...check him and make his position where you want it to be. You might have to check him farther from the helper and let him get closer the more you do this.

You could also lay down a flat board or something in front of the helper, which allows the dog to put his front feet on it. This way he gets a better picture of where his position should be.

If it helps...start this with the helper between two blinds (close together) so that the dog knows not to cross the threshold made by the two blinds.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Your club may want to look into an electric sleeve - cleans up hard-to-clean-up dogs in a jiffy!


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## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I would send him in straight into the blind (not around like a regular search), and have a long check line attached to something that will correct him (lets say a prong). As long as a hard correction on the prong won't shut him down...right before he gets to the helper and tries to get dirty...check him and make his position where you want it to be. You might have to check him farther from the helper and let him get closer the more you do this.



I posted a video close to what you are saying, he doesn't get a hard correction there but he does get checked. The prong just builds him, that is why the e-collar suggestion was made.


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## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

Sorry, Here is the working link to the video.

 Kato Hold & Bark


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

CSpivey08 said:


> He goes into the blind and bites the helper. He shouldn't do that at all. He needs to enter the blind and go straight into the hold and bark without touching the helper.


Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I watched the video and now understand even better.

I am just an IPO noob here but isn't the helper supposed to stand still in the blind? He seems to move right before he gets bitten on the sleeve. 

I don't mean to criticize the helper. I am just trying to understand what the helper, dog and handler should be doing. The video isn't entirely clear and maybe the helper was bitten a little and then moved in reaction to the little bite thus leading to the big bite.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That was the helper presenting the sleeve for the dog to bite as a reward for doing the hold-and bark. The issue with being dirty is the dog going for the sleeve before even starting a hold and bark, or deciding to grab the sleeve before the helper presents it. 

When dogs are dirty, it is usually subtle - they bump the sleeve, or just ligtly tag it with their front teeth, or do a real quick snag-and-release and continue to bark on.


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## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

The video doesn't show him being dirty. He goes in and tags the sleeve normally. 
In the video, I put pressure on the line so when he bolted in, he got checked a little and went into the bark and hold like he should, without ever touching the helper. Once he gets into a nice rhythm the line goes slack and he gets a bite for staying in position.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We worked on this too, went with ecollar to correct. We haven't used a long line in a long time, so the ecollar was the way to correct.
But in the big picture, a point lost for a dirty bump coming in isn't that concerning to me. Now if the dog continually was being dirty, then we'd work on it more... After a few sessions of ecollar correction, my dog was clean. 
BUT, whenever he is on a new helper, he'll give a bump. His way of being a punk.
I agree with doing a check right when the dog goes in, set up the rhythm and remind the dog bumping isn't acceptable.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> That was the helper presenting the sleeve for the dog to bite as a reward for doing the hold-and bark. The issue with being dirty is the dog going for the sleeve before even starting a hold and bark, or deciding to grab the sleeve before the helper presents it.
> 
> When dogs are dirty, it is usually subtle - they bump the sleeve, or just ligtly tag it with their front teeth, or do a real quick snag-and-release and continue to bark on.





CSpivey08 said:


> The video doesn't show him being dirty. He goes in and tags the sleeve normally.
> In the video, I put pressure on the line so when he bolted in, he got checked a little and went into the bark and hold like he should, without ever touching the helper. Once he gets into a nice rhythm the line goes slack and he gets a bite for staying in position.


Thanks very much for the clarification! And sorry for the slightly off topic questions. 

Personally, I can't wait for my pup to finish teething so I can get back to tugging with him again. This IPO stuff is starting to get under my skin and I am getting closer to committing to the sport.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Electric correction the second he touches. But I wouldn't correct inside the blind. I'd set the dog up elsewhere and send them straight in, fired up, when I know they'll be dirty, and give my remote to my helper or training partner where they can get get the timing perfect.


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## CSpivey08 (Aug 28, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> We worked on this too, went with ecollar to correct. We haven't used a long line in a long time, so the ecollar was the way to correct.
> But in the big picture, a point lost for a dirty bump coming in isn't that concerning to me. Now if the dog continually was being dirty, then we'd work on it more... After a few sessions of ecollar correction, my dog was clean.
> BUT, whenever he is on a new helper, he'll give a bump. His way of being a punk.
> I agree with doing a check right when the dog goes in, set up the rhythm and remind the dog bumping isn't acceptable.


Checking him hasn't worked, he will still go in dirty. 
We have been checking him for months, he doesn't care. If he gets away with it once he will continue on. 

My next question is, how did you condition your dog to the e-collar? I have an e-collar but have not had a need for it with this dog until now. I don't want him to be dependent on the collar to be clean.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I've used a lot of the other methods mentioned. I also have had the handler stand with their back to the corner of the blind, as the dog rounds the corner, the handler turns as well so handler is facing helper with dog. I have found making the dog go slightly wider around the blind helps. Plus with the handler there, they can give a correction if needed. I have faded out the handler by placing an object there and so on. I have found a lot of dogs are clean when getting sent in straight, but get dirty when rounding the corner. So giving them a little more time to "think" about it seems to work for me. 

A little late now, but I also like to teach my B&H with a little extra distance. Once the leash comes off the dog always closes the gap.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I make it crystal clear that any touching of the helper at all is not acceptable (using electric) before I ever send my dog into the blind. I find the once the dogs know that they are responsible for maintaining distance to.svoid the correction, slowing to collect themselves in the guarding comes second nature.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I mean, not judging...but was it a hard enough check?

I know a prong will amp up most dogs...but a good enough correction with one will still get it through to them and if they have enough drive, they'll forget about it and keep going.

I think my only issue with the ecollar in this situation is that it doesn't provide a physical correction to actually bring the dog into the correct position...like a prong check can do. An ecollar can correct the dog, and maybe the dog then moves back from the helper, but it might not "teach" the dog that he should just give him space all the time.

I've also seen a lot of problems with dogs who are taught thing with an ecollar...and that ecollar comes off. The being an A-hole thing is usually one of the things that you see the dog get back the moment they realize the ecollar isn't there anymore. Failed outs are another thing I have seen when a dog is taught to out with just a correction.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CSpivey08 said:


> Checking him hasn't worked, he will still go in dirty.
> We have been checking him for months, he doesn't care. If he gets away with it once he will continue on.
> 
> My next question is, how did you condition your dog to the e-collar? I have an e-collar but have not had a need for it with this dog until now. I don't want him to be dependent on the collar to be clean.


When I trained my dog to an ecollar it was well before we actually used it in the protection phase. We trained directionals/go to place and set up a strong foundation to be sure he understood.
I agree with not doing it in the blind, as some dogs will go into avoidance if they are corrected in the blind. 
And also agree with having the helper or someone else holding the remote for this, especially if the handler is a distance away or out of view when the dog reaches the helper. Timing is everything.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Key is to not show any physical reaction (helper or handler or person pushing button when dirty), let god to the talking. Then helper can proof him by slowly moving sleeve up to dog, when dog starts to move back with the sleeve, means he gets it.

Most people use pressure from helper, works with that particular helper but bring a new helper in picture and same dirtiness will happen (dogs associate and he will associate with that ONE helper to stay clean and the new guy will be fair game), people then think dog is badass


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't know it seems like the helper could do a couple of things himself to prevent this, when I have dogs coming in I usually like to keep my stick in front of the sleeve to protect it and knock at the dog if he is dirty. A really hard dog that I know who was dirty, the one way they got him clean was with both e-collar and prong. The e-collar was hit 3 times on stim and he was corrected 3 times with a no using the prong, you may want to try that.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Packen said:


> Key is to not show any physical reaction (helper or handler or person pushing button when dirty), let god to the talking. Then helper can proof him by slowly moving sleeve up to dog, when dog starts to move back with the sleeve, means he gets it.
> 
> Most people use pressure from helper, works with that particular helper but bring a new helper in picture and same dirtiness will happen (dogs associate and he will associate with that ONE helper to stay clean and the new guy will be fair game), people then think dog is badass


This  it kills me hearing that a "strong" dog is the one taking dirty bites on a new helper. I just don't understand.

If the dog isn't adjusting his behavior by himself (without being physically pulled into another position by a long line) then how are they actually learning to make the decision on their own? 

To me, guarding is guarding is guarding. Just like sit is sit is sit. If the dog is clean sometimes and not others, the only excuse is that there is a lack of clarity at some point in the training. Don't touch the helper means don't touch the helper, and if that's not getting through with a correction one or two times, then the guarding probably wasn't ready for the dog being sent in on its own in the first place. A correction is supposed to cause a change in behavior, right? I see people sending their dogs in on long lines for years and checking them to keep them clean...So if if takes week, months, or years, then how is that an effective correction or training method?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

+1 for GatorDog and Packen. I try to avoid helper corrections and such, helper yelling "sit" at the dog as he comes in etc. 

OB and control comes from the handler, not the helper. The helper is there to be an adversary not to give corrections. JMO. I like the control to come from the handler, not the helper. It leads to conflict IMO and only works on that one specific helper who the dog respects.

Ideally, the dog will respect no helper but will respect the handle. He maintains clean guarding because of the consequences of being dirty that will come from the handler (or "god" depending on the training plan, I'm ok with that as well if done right just need to avoid the dog understanding that "god" is only watching when the e-collar is on hehe). That carries over to other helpers and new fields, barring nerve issues


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> This  it kills me hearing that a "strong" dog is the one taking dirty bites on a new helper. I just don't understand.
> 
> If the dog isn't adjusting his behavior by himself (without being physically pulled into another position by a long line) then how are they actually learning to make the decision on their own?
> 
> To me, guarding is guarding is guarding. Just like sit is sit is sit. If the dog is clean sometimes and not others, the only excuse is that there is a lack of clarity at some point in the training. Don't touch the helper means don't touch the helper, and if that's not getting through with a correction one or two times, then the guarding probably wasn't ready for the dog being sent in on its own in the first place. A correction is supposed to cause a change in behavior, right? I see people sending their dogs in on long lines for years and checking them to keep them clean...So if if takes week, months, or years, then how is that an effective correction or training method?


The answer is timing, and reading the dog IMO. It takes weeks, months, or years because the timing is off and the dog doesn't have a clear understanding of what behavior caused the correction. Correcting prematurely as well, anticipating the dog will be dirty etc when he wasn't going to. Ideally the correction comes when the dog is trying to be dirty but didn't get the bite yet (self satisfying). Teaching the dog to guard a little further away gives more time between the intention and the bite. A lot of dogs guard way too close, there's no need to guard like a dobe


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Forgot to mention: I know some handlers need help, I know I did at the beginning. Lots of helpers help out newbies with the above methods. I personally prefer seeing a second experienced handler hold the long line / remote and issue corrections if necessary and if the handler needs help with timing.


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