# Understanding Protection Drive



## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

Hi folks,
I have another post on here (http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...7-looking-good-breeder-near-charlotte-nc.html) that involves my search for a GSD. I'm in a conversation with someone that breeds and trains GSD's and has a female almost 2 years old. She is from a Czech line and several of the males have IPO titles all trained by this owner. This is the description he sent me of her.

Submissive to people and dogs
Low to medium protection drive. 
Very strong nerves, nothing bothers her. 
Great with kids.
Typical young GSD, in that she has a lot of energy. 
She is healthy. Passing hips and elbows from OFA. 

From my research, the very strong nerves is very good. As a rookie potential working line GSD owner, he suggested that a dog with high protection drive would probably be a lot for me to handle.

So my question is, what is the general understanding of the difference between low/medium/high protection drive? I was a little concerned that a low/medium protection drive might make the dog less likely to be protective of the family or alert us to someone in or around our home. 

I'm sure this is just my lack of understanding to what these terms mean. Any comments or information that anyone can provide would be appreciated. Also any comments regarding the dog's description would be appreciated as well.

Thanks


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I would dig more into the submissive part. How submissive? pees all over the place submissive? Or is he trying to say not dominant? 

I also don't understand what is meant by low to medium protection drive? There is defense drive and prey drive. Not sure what protection drive is meant here. 

Good luck.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

"Protection drive" is not really a term that I've heard before. 

Stable nerves/temperament is usually associated with a confident dog, and I'm not sure confidence and submissiveness goes hand in hand. I would PM Bailiff on here and see what he says about this description.

It sounds like the dog is not dominant towards other dogs/people, and that'll make her easier to handle. If you're after a (primarily) family pet, this will make your life easier as you (hopefully) won't have to deal with aggression issues.

GSDs are naturally protective. Once the dog bonds with your family and home, it'll very likely alert you to strange noises "automatically," so to speak. That said, do not expect the dog to automatically engage (ie. bite) an intruder. Most dogs (even the protective breeds) do not do this without training, and that's a good thing. 

An overprotective dog will definitely be too much to handle, and that wouldn't be a dog with good nerves IMO. 

It _sounds_ like this dog would be a good option for a family pet in an active household, with the added bonus of some protective instincts, but do not set yourself up for unrealistic protection expectations "out of the box."


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is no protection drive


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

jwb1230 said:


> Hi folks,
> I have another post on here (http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...7-looking-good-breeder-near-charlotte-nc.html) that involves my search for a GSD. I'm in a conversation with someone that breeds and trains GSD's and has a female almost 2 years old. She is from a Czech line and several of the males have IPO titles all trained by this owner. This is the description he sent me of her.
> 
> Submissive to people and dogs
> ...


Go see her. The problem with descriptions like submissive or protection drive? is that they may not be text book correct, but its just a different way of explaining something in a way he thinks will be clear to you. See what she's like first hand.


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## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

This is a great forum. Can't thank everyone enough...

Thanks for the feedback. I was going nuts trying to find out what "Protection Drive" meant and the levels. I'm pretty sure that the breeder was trying to explain things at my level ("rookie").

I don't think he would mind me mentioning his name since he was recommended by someone on this forum. His name is Richard Shook. (http://www.southlanddogsports.com). He has been most helpful and patient in answering my questions.

When my wife and I go out to dinner it would provide some peace of mind to know that there was a dog in the house with my kids that would be somewhat of a deterrent to unwanted visitors.

I can't PM yet (something about the number of posts) but I can receive them. Bailif if you could provide some further advice or insights it would be appreciatied.

Thanks.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

jwb1230 said:


> When my wife and I go out to dinner it would provide some peace of mind to know that there was a dog in the house with my kids that would be somewhat of a deterrent to unwanted visitors.


Not to scare you, but I wouldn't leave a loose dog in a house with children without adult supervision. If the dog was raised (since early puppyhood) with those children and was now a very stable adult, I'd consider it, but not with an adult dog that's new to the house and the kids. After a few years of ownership (or kids in the teenage years) this may be an option, but be very careful about it.


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## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

Thanks for the words of caution. The dog is crate trained and my kids are 14 and almost 12. We would never consider leaving the dog in the house with them unsupervised until we felt extremely comfortable and secure with the animal. Until that time the dog would be in the crate if we had to step out for a bit. We are taking the decision to bring a dog into the house very serious and have been looking at this for a few years and wouldn't even consider it until our kids were a little older. These posts on here is part of our due diligence in making this decision. It is why were are looking at purchasing a dog from a responsible breeder.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Gotcha. I thought you were talking about much younger kids. Responsible teens will be fine with a stable dog and some good instruction. Once the dog bonds with your family she'll be an excellent companion.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Generally drives are broken up into 

Prey Drive- Desire to chase, catch, kill prey

Defensive Drive- Protect self and territory

Some will say there is a fight drive, but I think it is really more of a mix of prey drive, aggression, and a tinge of defense all mingled together in one pissed off dog that wants to beat some ass.

Food Drive- How crazy they are about food. Low amount of food drive results in a fickle eater that eats to live. High amount of food drive is a dog that lives to eat. They will eat and take food reward even when under pressure, right after being punished, or when nervous.

Hunt Drive- A dogs tenacity to search. Good tracking dogs, search dogs, hunting dogs all need this. Dogs that dont have it generally give up on searches fairly quickly.


Some consider flight a drive I'm on the fence about it, but it is basically a measure of a dog's threshold of running away or freezing under pressure of some sort.

Social Affiliation (sometimes called pack drive) Honestly this one is less of a drive and more of an attribute IMO. Drives are all things that are malleable and while you do have a certain genetic ceiling in place for those other drives you can mute them or make them stronger through conditioning or training. Not really so much with this one though.


Honestly its a paradigm to describe attributes in an animal and I'm not entirely sure I even like it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

As far as alert dog capability. A dog with really strong nerves sometimes really won't alert well. I say sometimes because I've seen dogs with strong nerves that will bark at any weird sound just to have something to do. 

As for whether or not your dog is going to be a man stopper. Very unlikely.


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## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

Thanks folks. Baillif, any thoughts on the description of the dog or the owner/trainer via his website?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't know what website you are talking about.


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## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

(http://www.southlanddogsports.com)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As a person who has a little bit of experience in working, breeding, and importing Dogs of Czech descent, I would say this sounds like a typical good solid Czech dog for a family or new person. Also, Richard Shook has forgot more than most people on this forum knows about the type dog described. Lastly, submissive to handler is different than submissive in general.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He probably isn't going to give you the dog you think you want. The guy will give you the dog that will work out for you. The real crazy drivey manstoppers usually come back to the breeder or get put down unless they land with someone with a lot of experience.

Case in point. I had a friend whos home got invaded and after that he went to Red Star back when Alex Vyatkin was still there. They got him a presa canario. "Real dog" real nasty guy was hard to control. Used keep a small shovel in every room of the house and if the dog got out of hand and went after them or looked like it was about to they went go find a shovel and smack the dog over the head with it.

Anyway dog ended up ripping his wife's ear off at some point and they had to get rid of the dog. 

Another story a guy ended up getting a dog for personal protection. Was a crazy 8 month old female that attacked a friend when he went into the house and degloved the guys hand resulting in like 100 something stitches. Was a really nasty dog that wanted a fight. Wanted to see if there was anything to do from an obedience perspective because he had a kid on the way. Told him he should just put the dog down.

If you're feeling the need for protection get an alerting dog with some size to him and a gun.


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## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

Thanks again for the feedback.


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## jwb1230 (Nov 17, 2015)

On paper this dog looks like a good fit for us and I plan on making a trip with the wife to see the dog. I will probably come back with a few more questions. Thanks for assisting and answering all the rookie questions.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm guessing that the breeder is using the term "protection drive" in the context of bite-training: i.e: this is not a strong dog for protection training.

However, you can have a softer dog, with no interest in bite-work, that is solid and clear headed, high-threshold, and will make a great family dog. A GSD alone is a great deterent and can alert bark, wich is all you may need. Being submissive might depend on the context - my GSD was submissive to my older dog, and is careful to not do anything that might be seen as a challenge to my leader status, yet from working with a number of police-dog trainers, he is anything but weak. He alert barks appropriately, quiets on command, and is confident and solid, and will engage a real threat (we have done the training). Yet he loves everyone and tries hard to engage everyone into a game of tug. 

I'd say go see the dog, and go with your gut feeling to see if she would be a good fit for you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

jwb1230 said:


> On paper this dog looks like a good fit for us and I plan on making a trip with the wife to see the dog. I will probably come back with a few more questions. Thanks for assisting and answering all the rookie questions.


Thats the best plan. Its not that he's talking down to the rookie, not everyone describes things the exact same way and then when you mix in what you read on line,,, It'll all seem a lot simpler when you are looking at the dog and he's telling you about her.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Following is an article discussing drives: Schutzhund Village

As someone who has kids of similar age and two working line GSDs, I will say that you have gotten some good advice in this thread. Based upon Cliffson1's comment, it sounds like you reached out to the right person. I will add the following: be absolutely honest with yourself and Mr. Shook about your experience and abilities (including your family), your expectations and what you want, and your living situation. The more accurate information he has, the better he will be able to assess things and assist. I wish you the best.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

That was a very good article and is the first piece of information I've read that actually catagorizes my GSD Lisl. 

It was as if he had met and worked my dog and then wrote the piece.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

You can absolutely get a balanced dog for protection without ending up with a coward or nut bar.

What you want is decent nerves socially and environmentally, mediocre prey and defence.

Look for some natural aloofness, not to be confused with shyness. Ears back, tail tucked, stiff body posture is to be avoided. Or the coward that hides behind the handler, barks or submissively urinates.

Better to opt for a more social dog if there arent any with a decent balance. 

In the end unless you have a nutbar you are going to need to do some actual protection training. Training in the actual house is best to proof the dog.


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