# Need Some Ideas...Rocco and Puppy



## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Ok...This is blowing my mind! Rocco is now almost 9 mos old and continues to have bacterial infections, hair loss on sides and constant scratching. We have him on a totally raw diet and have for the last 3 months or so. We supplement with fish oil, probiotics, some herbal supps from our vet, locally grown honey, etc etc. He has also been on Temeral-P which cleared things up the first go around, but does nothing for him now. All treats are freeze dried raw and we recently removed his Nylabone (he's been through 3 or 4 of them). He has been on antibiotics 3 or 4 times and it does clear things up for the most part, but it always comes back.The vet checked him for mites and saw nothing, but suggested putting Rocco on Revolution (every 2 weeks for 3 doses). He has had 2 doses and there has not been any change.

We bring in a new Puppy (Sonny) 6 weeks ago, and now he developed a bacterial infection and is scratching. Sonny is also on a raw diet and gets no commercial treats. He also gets fish oil, probiotics, some coconut oil and now benedryl. Our vet did not prescribe antibiotics for Sonny and said to keep bathing him with an anti bacterial shampoo. He is not getting any better.

Our vet finally gave up and suggested we take Rocco to a dermatologist which is happening on Thurs. I cannot believe that both dogs are allergic to a food source and convinced it must be something in the house. Rocco gets mainly beef and Sonny has been getting Beef, chicken and duck. We have wood floors in the kitchen and just had the carpet replaced in the family room. They sleep in crates with plastic bottoms. I was thinking about putting Sonny back on kibble, but I am hesitant, knowing that it is just "dead" food.

Has anyone experienced anything similar?

Thanks

Mike


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

visit the shed-x supplement thread , see if there is anything that you recognize as a starting off point 
sounds similar 

also you said he has been raw fed for the last 3 months (out of a 9 month life so far) . What was his diet previously , why did you change. What are the herbal supplements.

look to Dogs Naturally -- July / Aug issue features Allergies as the cover topic 
here is a link to an older issue http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/a-new-look-at-canine-allergies/

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do you have any pesticides outside that have been sprayed? Are you sure what Rocco has isn't a contagious skin disease? Have you ever had the bacterial infection cultured to find out exactly what it is?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

First I would think putting him on kibble would be a step backwards. He needs the enzymes and amino acids in whole natural form to assist immune system. 

Are both on coconut oil? They could be experiencing die-off symptoms (herxing). With the abx. (couple rounds) cycling. Bacteria are winning and could be a co-factor w/yeast - coconut oil still good for that, but if symptoms heavy, can give a day or two rest for liver to catch up (overburdened w/toxins) and re-introduce at smaller dose and work up. Probiotcs away from meds? 

Have both dogs been treated by same vet for vaccination protocol? You could try homeopathic detox for vaccinosis. If the vaccine was cultured via bovine there could be a sensitivity to beef because of.

I am curious too about what herbals 

It may be related between them, may not....the youger pup could have a demondex (spell?) mange - immune reaction from the vaccine. While the other is cycling die-off...

Is the fur loss - both sides? symetrical? That is an indictation of Thyroid, also vaccine related - boost immune system w/Aswaganda for adrenals


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Mike I PM'd you some info


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dr Marty Goldstein covers Herxheimers (the getting worse before better) . Dr. Marty Goldstein: Dogs Are What They Eat Too (VIDEO) | genConnect
this may be of interest.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Are you sure what Rocco has isn't a contagious skin disease? Have you ever had the bacterial infection cultured to find out exactly what it is?


This is what I'd suspect.

BTW, raw isn't always the miracle cure for every dog out there. Some dogs may thrive, others might not do as well.
I'd consider a limited ingredient diet - if beef is not doing well for this dog, try fish - Natural Balance makes a Salmon that is one of the 1st ones to try if chicken's a problem, too.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. Rocco was on a couple of different kibbles and then I started giving him 1-2 raw meals and 1 kibble. He has eaten raw in some form or fashion for almost 6 months. i made the switch to completely raw about 3 mos ago.

I should ask my vet about the bacteria and if it was cultured. She practices both western and Chinese medicine and she is very thorough.

We don't use anything on our lawn and our dogs do not go on the neighbors. We also don't use any harsh chemicals on the floor and only use a little bleach and hot water for washing their bedding.

Since Rocco has been on antibiotics 3 or 4 times for the bacterial infections and a couple of doses of Temeral-P, I am going to treat both of them for yeast over growth. I am going to switch to a cool protein meat source with green leafy vegs and add a good probiotic. I am going to try and detox both dogs to see if I can resolve the issue. Since Sonny was diagnosed with Giardia, but showed no signs of it, both dogs are taking Panacur. I don't know if Rocco had it first and they just missed it in his fecal sample or Sonny carried it first. Either way, whatever one dog gets, chances are the other will follow shortly. 

I cancelled the dermatologist appt because I do not want to see Rocco on more anti Bs and steroids. We are going to focus 100% on nutrition and supplementation to see if we can get things back on track.

I will keep everyone posted.

Mike


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Good Job. You know what you are doing, you were already on the right track


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I assume a skin scrape has been done??

Have you ever treated, or has the vet suggested, treating for sarcoptic mange??

Hair loss on the sides can be sarcoptic mange sx. 
Sarcoptic mange (scabies) isn't always found on skin scrape, either.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I assume a skin scrape has been done??
> 
> Have you ever treated, or has the vet suggested, treating for sarcoptic mange??
> 
> ...


I believe that's what the Revolution is for...just in case of...treating maybe's gotta wonder why our dogs are so sick. Why not test for yeast in first place (common in puppies after vax.), but then you wouldn't make the money of the "harmless" abx. and pesticides


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

This is off topic - the dates for Milo appears off "12/18/12 - 6/11/2012" 

Wish you the best on your dogs. Agree with Carmen on the getting worse before getting better - personal experience, but not sure if that's what you're experiencing. That part lasted about a year for me but if I was doing everything right from the start it might not have lasted that long. Since then, that dog does not have anymore allergy / skin issues. Good job on trying to minimize the injections. Treat the source, not the symptoms.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Mcap, my GSD's vet and I battled her itchy skin for over a year, she was at her vet's office at least 1-2 times a month (chronic ear infections, itchy paws, rash on belly...). It wasn't until I was reading a thread on Leerburg that I realized there was a dermatology specialty in veterinarian care. My vet never referred my GSD, I did. 

My GSD's struggle with itchy skin ended shortly after the derm vet visit, with the right combination of shampoo, allergy shots, and supplements, she made a 180 degree turn around within 5 months, by the time she returned for her follow-up 7 months later, she was totally symptom-free. Two derm vet visits were a lot less expensive than all those visits at her primary care vet. 

Just my two cents.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

True food allergies are relatively rare. Environmental allergies are much more common but that both have similar symptoms seems quite odd. I would suspect something contagious or environmental. Do you have rugs in your house?


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

> True food allergies are relatively rare. Environmental allergies are much more common but that both have similar symptoms seems quite odd. I would suspect something contagious or environmental. Do you have rugs in your house?


The crates are in the kitchen which is a hard wood floor. We just replaced the family room carpet last month. Those are the only 2 rooms that they have access to. After all the yrs of owning dogs, we found a spot on the hardwood floors that was showing signs of mold, which we took care of. I had the sample tested and it was just a common mold. This could be an issue, but Milo (Rocco's litter mate) never exhibited any symptoms of skin issues. This could be a contributing factor...don't know. I'm not sure if the Giardia is a contributing factor, but I'm sure it's not helping the issue.

Mike


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Here is a link for a Digestive aide containing Berberine Herbs.

Could check w/vet to see if can use w/current panacur treatment

Or use as an after treatment for ridding the stubborn ones the drug didn't get as well as an adjuvant to yeast and bacterial treatment along w/coconut oil.

This brand (Genestra) of d-zymes is highly recommended by my Holistic Vet, as well the holistic pharmacy I go to for advice (been in business for 50 yrs. - have a homeopathic physician, herbalist, nutritionist, on staff) and another compounding pharmacy that is integrative also around for like 30yrs.

This link is for one type that may be helpful
Berberis Formula by Genestra

and the link w/other d-zymes
Digestive & GI by Genestra


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks Gator!


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

I finally broke down and took Rocco to the Dermatologist. She was very cool and advocated a raw/natural diet. I told her the whole story and she had a chance to review his med records before I got there. I explained that both dogs were itching and scratching...etc, etc. She did a couple of scraping and said that there was very little bacteria. She asked if Sonny was treated for mange with Rocco. Well the answer is no. She thinks that Rocco passed mange to Sonny and even though Rocco was being treated with Revolution, Sonny was still infected and just passed them back and forth to Rocco. She suggested that we run the Revolution regimen again, this time for both puppies. She is not 100% certain, but this would definitely rule out mange.

If they are still scratching and itching and the red spots are still there, then she said it is most likely an environmental allergy and that is a whole different conversation.

We gave them their first round tonight, and need to repeat every two weeks for a total of 3 doses.

We are keeping our fingers crossed.

Mike


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