# Help need info on MI breeders



## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

My family and I would like to purchase a German Shepherd puppy in the net future so I have been doing a lot of internet research looking for the best breeder. We are looking for a family dog, I really like the straight backed "old fashioned" German shepherds, black and tan in color, and short coat (not a fan of the log coat). I have found Briarwood Sheperds - Port Huron Michigan to have some gorgeous dogs but I just don't have a good feeling about them does anyone have any experience with this breeder or know anything about them? Also I really like Welcome to Solid n' Superior - SnS German Shepherds Michigan but again I don't know if this is a good breeder either. I don't want to be scammed into buying a puppy mill dog and I need help, I have never purchased a dog from a breeder before, I have read what to look for and ask ect but I would like some opinions and advice if anyone has any to offer me. Thank you in advance! 

Ps i am new to this so I my post is in the wrong forums I apologize.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Welcome to you, keep looking! You are looking thru the wrong mouse clicks. Read the choosing a breeder forum here~ and make a list of what you want in your pup, what you'll be doing with your pup, and what type of pup(lines) would be best for you. I can recommend some breeders in MI, but the matching on what you want are important for the pups well being. Bigger isn't old fashioned and certainly not better. GSD's are a meduim sized dog and should be an athletic agile body and strength to work. The first site you posted is not representing what a GSD should be.

This sticky should be memorized when you do look at breeders:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Keep in mind that there's not old fashioned about "old fashioned", "oversized" a "straight backed" breeders. It's basically all for marketing and attracting potential buyers. 

There are quite a few very good breeders in your area. Read the link Jane provided about what to look for in a responsible breeder.

Here's another link you might want to check out. It talks about all the different lines of shepherd out there. Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Have you thought about getting a pup from rescue?


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## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

Thank you for the quick replies and helpful links  I had a feeling that Briarwood Shepherds was not in it for the right reasons, mainly do to them heavily advertising that they produce large German Shepherds, which I didn't think was acceptable. As far as the "straight back" goes I just thought that meant that possibly they wouldn't have issues with their hips.

Since I have posted last night I have been doing more research, on the breed and the lines that they have. From what I have gathered it sounds like the best suited line for our family would be the German show line due to the stable temperament yet it sounds like they still have a drive to protect. 

I have also found that there is an American show line, it seems like one of these would also work for our family as well, yet some of the things that concern are the lighter bone structure, no real standards, and the angulations being very extreme (hip displasia?). Also, it sounds like it's really hit and miss as far as temperament goes. I also realize that there are probably some American show lines that are still very good. 

That being said I think the best suited German Shepherd line for us would be the German show line, due to the temperament, stable mind yet still able to protect when needed. 

To give you a bit of background my husband, daughter (9) and I live in a country setting in MI on three acres. We have a very stable home environment and have always had at least one dog (always been rescue dogs). Our dogs have always been and always will be a part of our family, we do not believe in having a dog living outside in a kennel, they are treated as family members because that's exactly what they are to us. My husband currently has accepted a new job where works the opposite schedule as my daughter and I. That being said I would love to have a dog that is a great loving companion to our family, as all dogs are, but would also be able to defend us if heaven for bid something were to happen. We don't live in a bad neighborhood or anything and I don't want an aggressive dog nor would we ever train a dog to be aggressive, so please don't take that statement the wrong way. When we do get a puppy we will be going to obedience training as I think everyone should with any dog, and I would like to also get a canine good citizen certification, also I will make sure the dog will be very well socialized. I'm not looking for a German Shepherd that people are scared of or that can cause a huge liability to us or anyone, so that is why we would like to purchase a puppy from good lines. I am aware that even with good lines that training has a lot to do with how a dog acts and responds to different situations and that's why from a puppy we will be doing training classes and a lot of socialization. 

Sorry to bore you with all that but I'm torn between the American show line and the German show line. If anyone has anything to add to my findings please feel free to post, the more opinions I get the better as I want to make an informed decision.


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## mwiacek10 (Nov 8, 2010)

Hi. I got my guy from Winddancer Kennels in Lexington, MI. They are very lovely people and I wouldn't trade my dog for anything! He's very well balanced and just awesome! Home - Wind Dancer Kennels


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi! I also live in Michigan, and I am getting a puppy in June. I am getting one from Alta Tollhaus in Marshall Michigan. They have German Show lines, and they are beautiful with great temperaments. Their website is www.24kgsd.com. After talking to mulitiple breeders I felt certain I wanted a dog from Julie. I feel very confident that she will match me up with a suitable puppy.

We are looking for similar things in a puppy - mostly a family companion although we plan to do some agility and other things to keep the dog busy.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I LOVE my Alta-Tollhaus dog, he's awesome.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

A lot of people have the misconception that straight back = good hips and angled back = bad hips. It's simply not true; they're two completely different things. Many dogs with so-called "straight backs" have lousy hips and many dogs with angled or "sloped" backs have certified excellent hips. If you're worried about hips (and you should be, along with elbows and degenerative myelopathy), go to a breeder who tests their breeding stock for those things. There are tests than can be done for hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, and Degenerative Myelopathy.


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## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

Thank you for the referrals, I'm leaning towards contacting Alta-Tollhaus to get some more information on their dogs, and to talk about their upcoming litters. 

I love this site, everyone has been very helpful! Anything else I should know or anymore referrals to breeders in MI would be great!


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Welcome to the board.. you are in amazing hands here! Personally I prefer German Working lines and got my girl from Michigan and don't know much about the show lines however I have heard really good things about alta-tollhaus but do not know much about them personally.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If i were in Michigan and looking for a German show line, atla-tollhaus would be my first stop.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I have a AT dog and I just adore him, he is everything that I am looking for a GSD and then some. His breeder is an amazing lady, she travels all over to find the right match for her females. 

I was that psycho person who drove all the way to MI to check out her dogs in person.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

have you checked out Huerta Hof German Shepherds Not in MI, but close! and I know she produces wonderful dogs!!  (she is actually a member of this board!)


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

Larhage - Is your Gavin the father of the z-litter? If so, he will be my pup's dad.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I also drove to see the dogs at Alta Tollhaus - not a long drive for me since I live in E. Lansing. I was excited about the training facility since I live close enough to take my puppy there for training.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

LaneyB said:


> Larhage - Is your Gavin the father of the z-litter? If so, he will be my pup's dad.


YES! Gavin is the sire of the Z litter, ( those will be fun names!) I am absolutely thrilled with Gavin's offspring, his first puppy in the ring won his class down in Florida. :0 You'll be happy with your pup, Billie is a gorgeous and very nice dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is Gavin still in MI?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

German Showlines are good but please don't discount Am show lines, I have several, am not a breeder, but have super tempered dogs, they are sound tempered, good hips/elbows, everything any one would want...I hate that when asked everyone points out German showlines...you can find good in every line, AND bad as well. So follow the info you get, ask around at local vets etc, and don't hesitate coming across to Ontario either, lots of Am do buy and crossing the border is easy..GREAT dogs come from reputable breeders and HAVE great owners who spend the time and effort to train and socialize


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

my dogs, enough bone??

pup putting the brakes on:









Ty:









Gemma, playing her new game in a trench:


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Is Gavin still in MI?


Yes he is and he has been a very busy boy!!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Billie is Nikon's littermate, and of all the ten dogs I called her and Nikon the "twins" because other than gender they look so much alike.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Billie is Nikon's littermate, and of all the ten dogs I called her and Nikon the "twins" because other than gender they look so much alike.



I can see that Lies, they both have absolutely gorgeous pigment, Billie has always been one of my favorites and you know how much I love Nikon, he's the reason I chose Julie's breeding in the first place!


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

Is it Billie or Bailey that is the mother? I know on Julie's website it says Bailey.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I did not meet Billie or Bailey. I met Maika, Ana, and Allie. Has Gavin been in Michigan long? I know there was a male dog that was there, and I think it was Gavin.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

If there was a male dog there it was Gavin, he's been staying with Julie for a while. The female is Bailey, always call her Billie, don't know why? Lol!


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

Hello from another Michigander! I thought I would say hi and put in my 2 cents. Number one, I am partial to WGSL's but you can get a working line with a solid temperament and not extreme high drives as well. Both can be well suited for an active family. A reputable breeder will pick out a pup that they have determined to have the right temperament for you and your family. Just thought I would throw that out for you.  I personally will be getting a pup from Huerta Hof in Illinois when we are ready for one. That being said I have heard great things about Alta Tollhaus as well. I just found Robin first and really like what her and her Husband are doing with their breeding program. Also, they are WL, but I have heard great things about Wildhaus located in Michigan. Good luck with your search!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LARHAGE said:


> If there was a male dog there it was Gavin, he's been staying with Julie for a while. The female is Bailey, always call her Billie, don't know why? Lol!


If the dam is Bailey, she is also Nikon's littermate, but not his "twin" like Billie (Billie has always been much more like him in looks and temperament).

Nikon and Bailey, 4 months old


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## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

trudy said:


> German Showlines are good but please don't discount Am show lines, I have several, am not a breeder, but have super tempered dogs, they are sound tempered, good hips/elbows, everything any one would want...I hate that when asked everyone points out German showlines...you can find good in every line, AND bad as well. So follow the info you get, ask around at local vets etc, and don't hesitate coming across to Ontario either, lots of Am do buy and crossing the border is easy..GREAT dogs come from reputable breeders and HAVE great owners who spend the time and effort to train and socialize


Trudy- It was not my intention to come across as discounting the Am show lines, I was just going off what I have read in the research I was doing. It just seems like there are many more regulations for the German show lines then the Am show lines, to me if a breeder says that their dogs are AKC registered that really doesn't mean to much. All I'm looking for is a great family companion with a sound temperament, whether the dog is from Am show lines, German show lines, ect. I just want a healthy dog that will suite our family, and I will be putting in all of the effort to train and socialize form the minute I get the dog. I don't want to go into purchasing a puppy blindly though and that's the reason I came to this site, so that people such as yourself who have experience with the breed can give me their opinions on what to look for and where to look for reputable breeders. Your dogs are beautiful, I love the pictures!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You should also look at Royale Shepherds 
Just had a litter whelped.


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## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

Has anyone heard of this breeder before, or has anyone had any experience with them German Shepherd puppies for sale Mi.


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## mwiacek10 (Nov 8, 2010)

Oh my! Did you see all those dogs in one house? Crazy!


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## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

Yes it seems they have a lot of dogs, and puppies at one time, wasn't sure if this was normal or not since most breeders only have a couple litters a year.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

I never bothered to look at their site until now even though it kept popping up in google during my search's.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

Alta Tollhaus Z-litter has been born! 5 females and 3 males. I hope one of these puppies will be mine (a male) since we have our "Z" name picked out! Not sure though, since there are only 3 males.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

:fingerscrossed: there will be a Z male for you! Won't you share the name you have chosen? :gsdbeggin: I think a Z name would be cool!


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

We chose the name Zeruki, but he will probably be called Zero (my daughter likes that name because of Jack Skellington's dog). Thanks Onyx'girl - I hope we get one too!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

nnredman said:


> Has anyone heard of this breeder before, or has anyone had any experience with them German Shepherd puppies for sale Mi.


No personal experience with these breeders, but if I were looking for a pup, my search for a reputable and responsible breeder would included a breeder who:

- Works and titles his/her own breeding dogs, to get to know their strenghts weaknesses intimately, and thus be able to consider only the best dogs for breeding. I know of breeders that have raised, trained and titled dogs, only to NOT breed them, because through that one-on-one process found traits and quirks that would not be advantageous to pass on in the breed. People who have a lot of cute dogs and always have puppies are just puppy producers, not breeders of a breed. 

- I would prefer a breeder with only a few females, that produce only a few litters a year. This way they can devote their time to each pup and give them the best start in life, and be able through their daily interaction and observations to know the puppies well and find the best match with a new owner. 

- I would pass up a breeder that keeps breeding dogs based on being able to produce a certain colour. This is breeding for superficial aspects that has nothing to do with breeding to improve the breed, or to preserve the breed's working traits. 

- I would pass up a breeder that breeds oversized dogs. Any breeder that uses weight and size over the standard as a selling point is not breeding to maintain and preserve the breed. They are breeding to appeal to what the general public's uneducated view. 

- A breeder that brags about their dogs working ability, yet have never so much as put a title on any of their working dogs, and rely on pedigree and background to to give their dogs credibility. Yes, the pedigree and background are important, but show me what YOUR dogs can do. Don't rest on the laurels and reputation of other dogs, build your own bragging rights and develop your OWN dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

nnredman said:


> Has anyone heard of this breeder before, or has anyone had any experience with them German Shepherd puppies for sale Mi.


I'd start with some of the recommendations people have already given you in this thread. 

Everyone here is recommending filet mignon and lobster to you and you're trying to eat hamburger and frozen shrimp if you catch my drift.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> You should also look at Royale Shepherds
> Just had a litter whelped.


I agree....I've been happy with Royale Shepherds.


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## nnredman (Mar 28, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'd start with some of the recommendations people have already given you in this thread.
> 
> Everyone here is recommending filet mignon and lobster to you and you're trying to eat hamburger and frozen shrimp if you catch my drift.


I agree, I have been in contact with Atla-tollhaus and also Royale Shepherds, Julie at Atla-Tollhaus has been very helpful and she's in the process of matching us up with a puppy that will work for us. 

I have just been searching the internet a lot and these same "breeders" keep coming up in my searches.

I really appreciate all the feedback I have received from everyone on here!  I feel that I will be making a much more informed decision and I will be purchasing a puppy from a reputable breeder.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

IF you aren't comfortable with Briarwood you shouldn't consider them. I've never spoken with them & never considered them myself. I have talked to people that got pups from them & all were pleased with their dogs & with the service they received from the breeder. All have indicated their dogs are sound, healthy & have good temperaments. Because I wasn't personally interested in the breeder I never asked for or rec'd detailed info such as biddability, longevity, problem solving skills etc.

Anyone interested in Briarwood shouldn't be dissuaded from looking into them further. Their GSDs are over sized. Some of us prefer that while others see the work of Satan in every additional inch. Newer members might not realize how often this bias informs breeder recommendations.


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## kmarti32 (Mar 28, 2011)

Welcome to the site! I have learned SOOOOO much on this site and everyone is really great! A lot of people are painfully honest which is sometimes hard to take but also sometimes necessary.

Anyways, I'm from MI too and I wanted to say hello. Also, to tell you that I'm glad that you are getting recommendations on breeders prior to purchasing a pup. I didn't find this site until after I bought Diesel and I ended up getting him from a BYB. Don't get me wrong I love Diesel and I got really lucky with him but I won't do that again. My next GSD, unless I get a rescue, will be from a VERY reputable breeder after I've taken into consideration what it is that I want out of the dog. 

Good luck in your search!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Alta-Tollhaus dogs are beautiful and I've heard MANY great things about them here. If I was looking for another German showline and lived in the MI area... I'd go with them in a heartbeat!

I have an American show line and a German show line. I love my dogs, but I will never get another ASL. I do love the GSL and GWL. Next dog for us will be a German working line pup. Personal opinion (all ASL owners, no need to attack!)... Their looks, temperament, and overall health don't fit what I prefer.... they are just not for me.

As of breeders... I agree with Castlemaid. I would never buy a puppy from a breeder that didn't title or work their dogs, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't go to a breeder that didn't even RAISE 90% of their dogs! That one who had a "foster program"? REALLY?! No thanks. In my opinion, I'd stay far away from breeders like that. Also, keep in mind there is nothing "old-fashioned" about the oversized GSDs. Any breeder who goes outside the standard obvious has no care in the world about preserving the breed and improving the overall health. Breed for size & color= ignoring health, temperament, and overall quality. I've never understood breeding out of standards anyways... why get a breed if you don't actually like the breed standards? 

Anyways, It looks like you've got a lot of great information here and you made a great choice by talking to and planning a pup with Alta-Tollhaus. You wont be disappointed!! Good luck with your search and when the time comes, I hope you get an awesome GSD!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What do you mean by raising 90% of their dogs? Even with a medium litter of 5-6 that's 5 dogs from one litter...


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Liesje said:


> What do you mean by raising 90% of their dogs? Even with a medium litter of 5-6 that's 5 dogs from one litter...


Sorry, may have been unclear. I don't mean raising their litters... I mean raising/training their breeding dogs. I understand going to outside sources for a bitch or stud, and I understand bringing in new dogs to the lines from other programs/countries.... but, to fully understand your (general you) lines, your goals, and what you breed... you should know the dogs you breed by every inch of their being! If you do not... how do you know what you are breeding?!

I was referring to this type of breeder...
** Link removed by Admin**

They have a TON of dogs in their breeding program, but barely any even live with them or are raised by them. They have a 'foster program' 

They are not titled, they don't have any "working" photos of these dogs. The only pictures they have are of these dogs sitting on their rear ends and all of which look overweight. 

They breed their "foster" dogs that were raised by random families that fill out a foster form... from what it looks... just average joe and jane families. Which, for a pet/companion... that's a WONDERFUL home. However, for dogs in a breeding program.... how's that training, testing, or even knowing their true temperament and abilities? They hand the pups over at 8 weeks, another family raises them, and then they breed them.

There are 24 dogs on that page that are not retired or at the bridge. That's on the page of "mommy's and daddy's". 

No sire & dam info on them, no titles, no health certs from what it looks like, and what irks me the most is.... they brag about their "old style GSDs"!! In no way is that "old style", "traditional", or even breed standard.

I would expect a breeder to have raised and trained at least a good majority of their breeding dogs. Maybe that's asking too much... but, IMHO, they can't know their lines well enough when they don't even raise them or train them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gotcha. I agree, actually, though what you're saying is very rare with WGSL breeders. Most breeding dogs are purchased with titles, or sent abroad for titles and training. In general it's difficult if not impossible to find WGSL breeders in North America that have raised and trained anywhere near 90% of the breeding stock. It's also rare that the dogs are routinely taken to training and trialed again once they are Koer'd for life. I love WGSL and will always have them but also appreciate honesty and transparency from any breeder. Titles are not really the be-all or end-all for me as long as people are honest about how and where they were earned.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I love WGSL and will always have them but also appreciate honesty and transparency from any breeder. Titles are not really the be-all or end-all for me as long as people are honest about how and where they were earned.


I agree completely with that. I personally have way more respect for those that actually do the work themselves. Though, as you said... it's a bit rare. That shows you know, work with, and understand your lines that you produce. However, I have seen some breeders that, although they do send the dogs to Europe for titles, they do RAISE the dogs and also did continue working them here. Their titles were just not done here, and they admit to that clearly. I am okay with that... though, not the best method, but at least they know their dogs and continue to work with them. If the right litter came up for me, with the right pup, and everything else with the breeder and their guarantees/policies/practices were on track... I would buy a puppy from someone like that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

3 out of 4 of my dogs parents were trained and titled by someone other than the breeder so I'm OK with that but need to see the dogs work to decide. I've seen too many dogs come back with titles and fall off the sleeve, not engage in the blind, won't do some basic obedience without collar corrections or needing to be lured around with a ball or both. For me the proof is in the pudding, not in what someone tells me.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Liesje said:


> 3 out of 4 of my dogs parents were trained and titled by someone other than the breeder so I'm OK with that but need to see the dogs work to decide. I've seen too many dogs come back with titles and fall off the sleeve, not engage in the blind, won't do some basic obedience without collar corrections or needing to be lured around with a ball or both. For me the proof is in the pudding, not in what someone tells me.


Definitely! Especially if the pup I was looking for was for a specific purpose. If I wanted a pup for Schutzhund... I would want to see the parents worked in Shutzhund. Same with agility, S&R, etc. I want to know WHY should I go with that breeding? What should I expect from my pup from them? Why are those two a good match for producing these types of offspring? Papers don't mean much to me, titles are important, but like you said... if you can't SHOW me that... then they mean nothing either. So whether the titles were gained here or outside the country...... a breeder should still be able to show you their dogs work. If they don't continue working the dogs here... then, why are they breeding these dogs? Personally, if I was to breed any animal, it'd be because I am passionate about them and whatever sport I do with them.... which, because of that, I would want to work them! I would want to enjoy what my lines have made and what I've trained! That right there is the most rewarding part!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Any breeder who goes outside the standard obvious has no care in the world about preserving the breed and improving the overall health. Breed for size & color= ignoring health, temperament, and overall quality.


*Not True.* Well regarded old fashioned GSD breeders often breed for a larger GSD, but they breed for a great deal more as well. These breeders are meticulous regarding health, temperament, longevity & overall quality. To continually throw out these falsehoods is just wrong. Repeating it ad nauseum doesn't make it true.




> I would never buy a puppy from a breeder that didn't title or work their dogs, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't go to a breeder that didn't even RAISE 90% of their dogs! That one who had a "foster program"? REALLY?! No thanks. In my opinion, I'd stay far away from breeders like that


Many breeders train & work their dogs on their farm, ranch or at home. Royalair, my little Djibouti's breeder, has had GSDs working as SAR, guide, assistance & therapy dogs as well as outstanding companions. That she doesn’t title her dogs is irrelevant to me & many others. I will reassess that if/when titling is honestly designed to evaluate what is most important to me. Everyone should establish their own criteria in deciding on a breeder. Additionally, they should know why particular criteria are important to them & why other criteria aren't essential. Successfully choosing a breeder is not a one size fits all endeavor.

Foster programs & co-ownerships provide an opportunity for future/potential breeders to be mentored by knowledgeable & experienced breeders. Good breeders work closely with those fostering their dogs. Breeders often have the bitch returned to personally whelp & raise the puppies. Naturally, anyone uncomfortable with this should choose another breeder.




> I've never understood breeding out of standards anyways... why get a breed if you don't actually like the breed standards?


The GSD standard has changed through the years. Max himself put up a GSD that was 29”. I won’t change my breed preferences to accommodate an ever evolving & contentious standard. Frankly, I've never understood why that is so bothersome to others. I also don't understand directing people to Shilohs or King Shepherds given the health/temperament problems & the disarray of the goals & management within those breeds. Nor do I understand suggesting St Bernards, Leonbergers & Newfies which are vastly different from GSD. 




> Also, keep in mind there is nothing "old-fashioned" about the oversized GSDs.


A favorite saying here which is false. Historically, true working GSDs showed considerable variety in size, substance & coloring. As noted, Max put up a very tall GSD. Until recently a common complaint was that _only_ over sized GSDs were competitive b/c they were so strongly favored by the judges. Apart from size, the exaggerated toplines & extreme angulation are a SL phenomenon that seems to be creeping into some WL in recent years. The level/straight back & moderate angulation are definitely old fashioned. It was actually due to this that I initially looked into old fashioned breeders. (Ftr, many WL are also old fashioned, IMO)

IF we’re going to play semantics games, it’s fair to point out that many WL don’t actually work. Some haven’t done any actual ‘work’ for generations. Sporting games & the fervent pursuit of titles don’t qualify as work in any meaningful sense. (I will refrain making that distinction in every thread asking about WL)

There are a number of recommended breeders here I wouldn’t personally get a pup from. I’ve got health & temperament concerns with a couple. Dislike the way another’s bitch was treated. Longevity questions with yet another. Several simply don’t breed GSDs I personally find attractive. Despite this I do not make it my mission in life to wag my finger & raise warnings when others recommend them. I personally respect & adhere to the ‘no bashing rule’. I have support for my concerns with the breeders, but I recognize that my concerns might be unfounded. I leave it to those interested in their pups to look further & come to their own conclusions. The breeders of old fashioned GSDs deserve this same respect despite the widespread dislike for them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

'Old Fashioned' GSD's from 1899 to1906 Champions from the competitions in Germany.
Do they look big boned over sized?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> 'Old Fashioned' GSD's from 1899 to1906 Champions from the competitions in Germany.
> Do they look big boned over sized?


Someone could use the arguement that GSD's should have more refined heads, longer legs and shorter tails by using these same pictures.  

Hasn't Doc explained where the larger dogs came into the breed? (Swabian lines maybe?)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Those were the early 'champs', and the Swabian lines were added, yes....was it helpful? I would not want a bigger bone for a working dog. Those dogs weren't gorgeous, or fluffy coated, but you can see their utility in the structure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> 'Old Fashioned' GSD's from 1899 to1906 Champions from the competitions in Germany.
> Do they look big boned over sized?


The second one on the left column reminded me of Pan!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lies... completely off topic, but what's that around Pan's pasterns?


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> *Not True.* Well regarded old fashioned GSD breeders often breed for a larger GSD, but they breed for a great deal more as well. These breeders are meticulous regarding health, temperament, longevity & overall quality. To continually throw out these falsehoods is just wrong. Repeating it ad nauseum doesn't make it true.
> 
> Many breeders train & work their dogs on their farm, ranch or at home. Royalair, my little Djibouti's breeder, has had GSDs working as SAR, guide, assistance & therapy dogs as well as outstanding companions. That she doesn’t title her dogs is irrelevant to me & many others. I will reassess that if/when titling is honestly designed to evaluate what is most important to me. Everyone should establish their own criteria in deciding on a breeder. Additionally, they should know why particular criteria are important to them & why other criteria aren't essential. Successfully choosing a breeder is not a one size fits all endeavor.
> 
> ...


I have yet to see anything you describe in GSD history. And I very very much disagree with you. I will never, ever work with a breeder like I posted and they couldn't PAY me to take their dogs. I prefer what a GSD is supposed to be within the standard. I still fail to see all those "health certs" you speak of... if they are so careful about health... where's the certifications?! I see NO OFA's on those pages. So... I do not agree. Just because you claim to have a good experience with a breeder (that I didn't mention)... doesn't mean they are all that way. If you would buy a puppy from the breeder I commented on... so be it... not my time, heartbreak, or bank account. I have the prime example of bad breeding right here with Zira and I see first hand what ignorance brings into this world..... I do not support breeders that have their heads up their rear ends and breed whatever has a penis and a vagina and resembles the breed in at least one way or anyone who has no respect for the standard. Sorry... this will not change. You will not convince me otherwise.

Just as I said about ASL: My opinion... I'm not here to change anyone's opinion or share them with anyone... Don't agree.. then we agree to disagree. To each their own. Plain and simple: not for me. I share my opinion just like everyone else. I don't come on here to fight over opinions. Mine will not change, I promise that. You own what you want, I own what I want... End of topic.

The OP will read everything and do their own research, and from everything that's been said... they will choose what they want. That's what this thread is about. Not a debate of what the GSD should or should not be.... let's keep it that way. At the end of the day is just a personal preference anyways.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Liesje said:


> The second one on the left column reminded me of Pan!


He has his face almost exactly! Looks very similar! 

Btw, Pan is absolutely gorgeous!!!!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Tricky, I have no idea which breeder you're even talking of. I've purchased from exactly 2 breeders & one was an Irish Wolfhound breeder, so it doesn't appear to be a breeder I've gotten a pup from. Satisfy my curiosity, if you don't mind, & pm me a link to the breeder you're referring to.

I don't give a ratz patoot where people buy their GSD or what they want in 'em. I will always oppose the blatant misrepresentation of the Old Fashioned lines. Breeders of those lines encompass good, bad & indifferent much like show lines, sporting lines & working lines. Some are knowledgeable & ethical, while others are ignorant &/or slick, which is equally true of show, working & sport lines. Generalizations about health & temperament are neither more nor less applicable than they are to show, working & sport lines.

There is many a tragic story b/c someone thought they were dealing with a good breeder b/c the breeder had champion show lines or SchH titled working/sport lines. NOTHING substitutes for potential buyers thinking, researching & LOOKING at the dogs they're interested in, regardless of which type they prefer. 

It is most definitely historical fact that Max put up a 29" dog. It's widely known (& complained of) that until very recently 'correctly sized' GSDs were competitively at a disadvantage b/c judges consistently put up over sized dogs...In many cases dogs that were considerably over sized & should have been disqualified. IMO, that's wrong. They should have the guts & integrity to either abide by the standard or have it officially revised yet again. I'm not involved in conformation or performance events so despite my opinions on the matter it's truly not my battle to fight.

People doing real work with real working dogs have always preferred functionality over cosmetic quibbles, including size. After the wall came down a breeder I'm acquainted with imported GSD from the border patrol program that were 28-29+ inches. They had a very distinct look & were very much working GSD, albeit over sized.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Lies... completely off topic, but what's that around Pan's pasterns?


It's tape to protect his hocks and stop pads from burning on the flyball mats when he slides into the box. She just ordered Z-boots for him, which will look way snazzier


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> Lies... completely off topic, but what's that around Pan's pasterns?


Vet wrap to protect his stop-pads and hocks because he's naughty and slides into the box. If he's not taped or wearing boots, he will literally burn through his pads and skin at a tournament.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

What Ruby has said about large dogs being in existance since the beginning, and a part of the formation of the breed is absolutely correct. Big ones, shaggy ones, collie-type coated ones, white ones, floppy eared ones were all represented in the early foundation stock of the breed, just as much as the more slender, almost Malinois like structured dogs.

You won't find them in photo galleries of the Siegers of those days because they weren't representative enough of the desired breed type to be picked as the ONE most preferred dog any given year. But most certainly they were a big part of the genetics that formed the breed and if one looks up some of the historical records of the time, including Max' book, there are plenty of photos of them. 

They were never preferred and never "within standard" but that didn't matter during the development of the breed when the other genetics they brought were desired. Those other traits, primarily temperamental, were highly valued, so they were used anyway and the less desired physical traits were over time bred away. But since those genetics were part of the foundation they have always existed somewhat, which is why their influence is still found today and we still have different varieties of long coats (from shaggy to collie like), and soft ears, and whites, and heavy boned oversized dogs.

Such dogs were indeed one of the types that comprised the "old fashioned" dogs, but only one of many types. So while these "old fahsioned" marketing ploys aren't outright lies, they are definitely misleading in their attempts to indicate that such dogs are the real, original, and only type of GSD. Which of course they were not. So I can understand why people have a gripe with those breeder advertising claims.

I can also understand having a gripe with intentional breeding outside of the standard. Just because a type was part of the foundation of the breed doesn't equate to it being advisable, or healthy for the breed, to work backwards isolating those genetics and avoiding the others. The breed was designed to be a carefully selected combination of some very different regional herding and working types, and it was that careful blend that made the breed great. Not fragmentation into isolated pockets of genetics.

But, fragmentation is sort of where we've arrived at today with the breed. And to a point most every breeder and line is doing it. So while I don't agree with breeding out of standard or breeding for any very narrow and specific set of criteria instead of overall balance, and would not support such a breeder myself, the oversized folk certainly aren't the only ones doing it. Nor is it even remotely fair to demonize the oversize (and color and long coat) breeders more than the breeders breeding for show conformation over utility and temperament, or the breeders breeding specialized dogs for sport (as opposed to GSDs who can do sport well... and there is a world of difference) and in doing so creating dogs who are good at it but little else. I'd argue those last two camps have done more damage to the breed than any others.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> I don't give a ratz patoot where people buy their GSD or what they want in 'em. I will always oppose the blatant misrepresentation of the Old Fashioned lines. Breeders of those lines encompass good, bad & indifferent much like show lines, sporting lines & working lines. Some are knowledgeable & ethical, while others are ignorant &/or slick, which is equally true of show, working & sport lines. Generalizations about health & temperament are neither more nor less applicable than they are to show, working & sport lines.


There's something we can agree on. In everything humans start (in and outside the animal world) there is always the good and the bad. So yes, I do agree.... there are horrible, unethical breeders in every single "style" of GSDs and all the other breeds out there.

However, when it comes down to it.... although I may not agree with it, support it, or really like the idea. As long as a breeder is doing good for the breed (other then size.... like health, temperament, etc).... then so be it. If that's what you prefer, I don't care. My problem is with the breeders who lie about their dogs to draw in the ignorant public, does not health cert or train their dogs in anything other then couch guarding, and don't even raise their own dogs to know what they are breeding! If a breeder can not give me a dog's pedigree, titles, prove to me they can do what those titles claim, health certs, and tell me WHY they think these dogs are going to produce quality pups for said reason......... then I'm sorry, they couldn't pay me to even think about taking one of their dogs/pups. Breeders are supposed to be the top of the top... breeding the best of the breed.... not just any random dog that resembles the breed. If they aren't knowledgeable of their lines, goals, and the dogs they are breeding.... then they shouldn't be considered a breeder no matter what color, size, shape, or temperament they were going for.

It's just not my cup of tea.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I just like breeders to put up or shut up. If the dog is naturally protective and obedient...OK let's see several examples! If the dogs are great at SchH....cool, let's see the results! If they are top show lines....awesome, how are the progeny stacking up in recent shows?


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I just like breeders to put up or shut up. If the dog is naturally protective and obedient...OK let's see several examples! If the dogs are great at SchH....cool, let's see the results! If they are top show lines....awesome, how are the progeny stacking up in recent shows?


Exactly!

The only focus shouldn't be "oh they are great family dogs".... well... super... but how do they represent the breed?! That goes for all breeds. Even with the Golden Retriever I wouldn't accept that... How strong is their retrieving drive? How confident are they in the field/in the water? How agile are they? How strong is their nose? Hip/eye/and elbow Certs? They compete in Dock Diving, Agility, Duck Hunting, Fly Ball.... that's how THEY prove what their dogs have. Not just "they are good with kids"... well, yes they are supposed to be, but prove to me they fit all the other standards for that breed. There are only a few breeds that were just made as lap/house dogs.. and even with them, I would want their temperament, weight, height, and health proven to me. If I want that breed and plan on buying from a breeder (spending $1200-2000 on average)... I want a good representative of it... otherwise, I will just go use my money to support a good cause and get a dog from the pound/rescue for $60-350. Which make FANTASTIC dogs as well... It depends what you are looking for. I would not, however, give my money (regardless of amount.... $0.01- $2000) to a breeder that doesn't even follow ethical practices.... being lack of health certs, titles/training, or an understanding of the breed they are breeding!

If a dog can not fit the bill on what their breed should be... then they should not be breed. If a breeder can not prove their dogs ability and correctness to their breed.... then they should not be breeding.


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