# Bomb detection Dogs



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Recently someone insisted to me that explosives trained K9's are only good for about 20 minutes, then needed "several hours rest". 

Is this true?

Also, if this would be more appropriate in the military section, feel free to move.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> Recently someone insisted to me that explosives trained K9's are only good for about 20 minutes, then needed "several hours rest".
> 
> Is this true?
> 
> Also, if this would be more appropriate in the military section, feel free to move.


Dogs are individuals. If they have a lazy handler, they won't be in good enough condition to work longer than that. The several hours rest is an exaggeration as well. 

My dog Fama can go much longer than that. Much, much longer.


8 miles every morning for both of us.










David Winners


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

David I think the question was how long could the dog sustain deep concentration , not how physically active it could be .\
Condition and innate drive .
There are SAR tracks which take longer !
There are dogs that search Bed Bugs in hotels, theatres, public transit , schools etc etc -- with sustained concentration and accuracy pretty much all day .
Same with Customs dogs .
I would question a dog that can't work with concentration longer than 20 minutes .

dog "Dr Baker" , Simba, Sable, and I am sure Buffy worked diligently and accurately for as long as it took. "Baker" was used when Pope John Paul did his first North American visit -- all buildings and route were searched by him prior to the Pope entering that zone . Baker also did the search and security for the G 7 Summit in 1988 , assigned to the protection of Pres Reagan .
Simba - Houston Intercontinental Airport - all day.

Dogs at the GTAA -- all day


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A long day for Fama:

6 kilometers of dismounted route clearance through the mountains, followed by searching every building (43 total) in a small village, followed by another 4 kilometers of route clearance. It was 105 degrees outside in the afternoon. This took us 9 hours to accomplish.

David Winners


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

David - that is a working dog !


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lol... she lives for it. I'm lucky to have had the pleasure of her as a partner.

David Winners


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

We typically work our detection dogs much longer than 20 minutes. It is a combination of conditioning, drive and training to increase stamina or working ability. Temperature and weather plays a huge factor. The dog needs to be in excellent physical shape and has to be conditioned by jogging, biking, etc. A well conditioned dog will search longer and track longer than an out of shape dog. Another factor is the handler being to recognize when the dog is going out of drive and not working or focusing and being able to put the dog back into drive and back on task.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Nothing like getting all goofy in front of the team to motivate the dog 

There is no way we could have done that search when we first deployed. We spent a lot of time conditioning and training long, long venues to build up to that level. That search was 5 months into deployment.

David Winners


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Thank you so much all, for responding. This was a person who lives on the west side of Washington and was trying to tell me the dogs working the ferries, who sniff the vehicles getting loaded, were all "for show", because they can't work that long. I knew he was full of crap, but it did start me wondering along the general lines. 

David, I would definitely assume that, especially in certain situations, there would be minimal rest.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> Thank you so much all, for responding. This was a person who lives on the west side of Washington and was trying to tell me the dogs working the ferries, who sniff the vehicles getting loaded, were all "for show", because they can't work that long. I knew he was full of crap, but it did start me wondering along the general lines.
> 
> David, I would definitely assume that, especially in certain situations, there would be minimal rest.


There are breaks for humans and dog alike. Our rule of thumb was if we stopped and Fama napped, we would continue mission when she woke lol. The first one would be about 15 minutes, and when she woke up, she would shake, nose my cheek, and be ready to rock.

David Winners


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

She sounds awesome.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

She is! Our deployment was very successful.

She was also a serious pain in the butt. With all that drive and confidence came a lot of baggage developed by years in the kennel. She was very aggressive when I got her. She was absolutely nuts in a kennel or crate, and got rewarded every time someone would walk away when she was barking. 

I spent months calming her down, but that's another thread.

Sorry for the hijack 

David Winners


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

No no. I love reading all about it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> Recently someone insisted to me that explosives trained K9's are only good for about 20 minutes, then needed "several hours rest".


I could understand the above comment if the dog was searching through rubble and dust. Like a bombed out building for additional bombs and/or people. So if the environment was unstable, I could understand pulling the dog after a short while.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

They were talking specifically about the dogs investigating vehicles boarding the ferries on the WA coast. No rubble.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I could understand the above comment if the dog was searching through rubble and dust. Like a bombed out building for additional bombs and/or people. So if the environment was unstable, I could understand pulling the dog after a short while.


Working in this stuff would wear her out quicker, so I imagine rubble work would be pretty exhausting.










David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> They were talking specifically about the dogs investigating vehicles boarding the ferries on the WA coast. No rubble.


Searching cars is super easy for the dog, if a bit boring. We would search 200 semi trucks in 8 hours, plus a couple hundred push carts to break up the day.

David Winners


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

What an interesting thread with great posts 

Though David I have to admit I chuckled at the photo, it looks like you're calling her down and she's contently sitting there saying 'give me the ball and I will'


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Searching cars is super easy for the dog, if a bit boring. We would search 200 semi trucks in 8 hours, plus a couple hundred push carts to break up the day.
> 
> David Winners


Yes, this is what I figured.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Shade said:


> What an interesting thread with great posts
> 
> Though David I have to admit I chuckled at the photo, it looks like you're calling her down and she's contently sitting there saying 'give me the ball and I will'


I was actually getting her to focus back on the hide. There is a plant up on that ledge and she scaled up there to get to it, but was looking at me instead of the hide.

Where's my ball daddy 

David Winners


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

What a great team you two make.
Fama sounds like my kind of dog...lucky you. 
(Love the photos too. She's drop-dead gorgeous!)

Kat


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

KatsMuse said:


> What a great team you two make.
> Fama sounds like my kind of dog...lucky you.
> (Love the photos too. She's drop-dead gorgeous!)
> 
> Kat


Thanks 

David Winners


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Wow, what a beautiful dog David! I really admire people and their dogs who do dangerous work like this. I agree that the terrain would make a huge difference, but a dog with a lot of drive can go a lot longer than 20 minutes, I would think!

I've just started scenting classes with my young dog and she is positively wild for it! It probably takes her 20 minutes just to calm down enough to not crash everything in the room!  The instructor has narcotics/bedbug dogs and said my dog would be a great narcotics dog. Not a good bomb dog though, as her alerts are a little...over-zealous??? Everyone would die. lol


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## Chantald (Jul 23, 2013)

You have an amazing dog, and the two of you must make an awesome team! I loooove the picture of the two of you P/Ting on the treadmills together by the way!


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Lots of alleged "subject matter experts" out there delivering advice on things they know nothing about. 
A dog that is ready for "real" work needs to be able to work all day. Physical and mental stamina is developed during the dog's training.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Tim Connell said:


> Lots of alleged "subject matter experts" out there delivering advice on things they know nothing about.
> A dog that is ready for "real" work needs to be able to work all day. Physical and mental stamina is developed during the dog's training.


To whom is this directed?

David Winners


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

David Winners said:


> To whom is this directed?
> 
> David Winners


Not to you, David. More of a blanket statement. I'm talking about the "experts" who talk about things like that the dog can only work 20 minutes, etc. 

Just like every other topic. there is always a "know it all", spreading disinformation, when in fact they possess no qualifications to do so.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> Recently someone insisted to me that explosives trained K9's are only good for about 20 minutes, then needed "several hours rest".
> 
> Is this true?
> 
> Also, if this would be more appropriate in the military section, feel free to move.


I have been working my male at my local Airport in the mornings, and he tracked a coyote for over an hour until he found it a few days ago. Yesterday he hunted and flushed birds along the middle of the airport run way system for 4 and a 1/2 hours before *I *got tired... definitely a lazy handler, he could go all day.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Tim Connell said:


> Not to you, David. More of a blanket statement. I'm talking about the "experts" who talk about things like that the dog can only work 20 minutes, etc.
> 
> Just like every other topic. there is always a "know it all", spreading disinformation, when in fact they possess no qualifications to do so.


Plenty of internet experts out there. I just ignore them most of the time. I do hate to see gross misinformation passed along as training advice, especially if it may negatively effect the dog.

I also hate to see people who have never worked a dog criticize the professionals that devote their lives to the team, and protect our citizens every day. Pick up a leash and walk in the shoes of a handler before you open your mouth and criticize. 

David Winners


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

David Winners said:


> Plenty of internet experts out there. I just ignore them most of the time. I do hate to see gross misinformation passed along as training advice, especially if it may negatively effect the dog.
> 
> I also hate to see people who have never worked a dog criticize the professionals that devote their lives to the team, and protect our citizens every day. Pick up a leash and walk in the shoes of a handler before you open your mouth and criticize.
> 
> David Winners


Indeed. Lots of armchair commandos out there willing to speak about things they have no knowledge of. I'm in agreement with you in this fight, Sir. 

Don't even get me going on the people out there working dogs in critical missions that are not trained properly. I'm sure we could go on for hours about that one...maybe another thread sometime!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Our explosives k-9's work all day, regular shifts with their handlers.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

FG167 said:


> Our explosives k-9's work all day, regular shifts with their handlers.


Doing what type of work?

How long are the shifts?

What are the conditions?

What percentage of the day are they actively searching?

Just interested as it applies to the thread.

David Winners


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

David Winners said:


> Doing what type of work?
> 
> How long are the shifts?
> 
> ...


Searching cars for explosives

8 hours generally

All weather that is in TN - so (being from MI) in my opinion, pretty comfortable

Varies dependent on post. Some posts are slow and regular, some are super busy at times and super slow at times.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lilie said:


> I could understand the above comment if the dog was searching through rubble and dust. Like a bombed out building for additional bombs and/or people. So if the environment was unstable, I could understand pulling the dog after a short while.


Depends on the situation. I work a USAR dog. Yes we take breaks, but depending on the situation, the dogs will work a 12,hr shift. Yes they get breaks, but maybe 10-15 minutes, then back to work. Catastrophes like hurricanes are worked very different than WTC scenarios. 

As a handler it's up to me to keep my dog fit, and not work a dog that quits after 20 minutes. That's said, most dogs can go in and out if drive as needed. So yes, I can search for 12 hours, but the dog goes in and out if drive the whole time. 

Don't think I would expect a SAR dog of any type to maintain the level if intensity of full drive for 12 hours. Even when working a wilderness K9. Those dogs ranged and ran and went in and out if drive. Until they hit scent. Then the drive kicked in and they would work that scent until finding its source. Sometimes 5 minutes sometimes an hour. 

Certainly can't speak for other venues. But my dogs would "work" searching and smelling in a state of " medium drive" until they get whiff of scent. Them all bets are off. No matter how long we had been searching. 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but most working dogs get regular water and okay breaks during their shift, or down time between spots to search. 


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