# Does your vet permit you to stay with your dog while he is being treated?



## Germanshepherdlova

Does your vet permit you to be with your dog during the examination and while he is treating your pet? At my vet's office, initially you are called into a small exam room with your dog and the vet will ask you why you are there and take a look at your dog. Then the vet will tell you to go back in the waiting room while they treat your dog, or do vaccines, weigh your dog, etc. You then return to the waiting room and then a vet tech will bring your dog out to you when they are done. I felt uncomfortable and was a bit surprised when I first went to this vet, but then I came to accept it as normal, but now I am wondering if I shouldn't be so trusting.


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## JustMeLeslie

Wow, I couldn't go to a vet that did that. It would make me feel too uncomfortable. I want to be there with my dogs and see what's being done to them. I have never heard of a vet that does something like that.


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## shannonrae

Sounds a little strange. Chances are there is nothing to worry about. But, I would certainly ask them why! You can tell them (politely) you would feel more comfortable if you could stay in the room. Do your dogs behave well at the vets?


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## KZoppa

thats not something i would want to do. We've had several experiences where the vet took one of our pets back out of our sight and it caused more harm than good. Several members on the site have had issues because of that. I wouldnt trust a vet who doesnt allow you in the room with your pet during anything less than surgery. Riley used to be the perfect vet dog. Never growled, grumbled, snapped or anything until the ONE time we allowed the vet to take him back without us present. NEVER again. EVER! he's got to be muzzled going in and coming out because of that experience. No idea still to this day what exactly they did to him but he's not good at the vet anymore since. I refuse to ever allow a vet to take any of my animals back without me present. I will walk out (yes, without paying) and never go back if they tell me they have to take my dog back or me leave the room. I'll tell them why as i'm walking out the door too. 


NOTE: Some dogs do better without their owner present for even annuals but thats rare. It usually stresses your pet more when you're NOT there while they're being handled by strangers.


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## dogfaeries

My vet is big on owner participation, so I've always been there for any exam, test, etc. I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my dog. And I see no reason why I couldn't be there 
for anything, short of surgery,

I think it's whatever you feel comfortable doing.


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## Lin

I would not allow that... I want to know exactly whats going on and be there to help if blood is being drawn, and to make sure my dogs aren't accidentally given something I don't want them to have. It never fails that EVERY time I go to the vet, no matter what the reason is for, the vet tech goes "and vaccines" at the end of the reason I gave when I scheduled the appointment. NO. When I'm there for vaccines, I'll tell you. Once at a past vet they vaccinated my dogs without asking first only a month after they had received their boosters. I was LIVID. 

The only times I haven't been right with my dogs was when they had to take Tessa for xrays, or when I've been at the ER vet/Logans ICU stay.


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## CarrieJ

I won't go into the details as I'd just be repeating my self from the Parvo thread. 
But, yep...and I've gone through three vets in two years due to the Alice seizure issues. I've got one now that not only agreed that the meds are too high, but actually has us help restrain the dog.
And, my dog apparently is a tramp and loves, loves, loves, his intern.
*literally gazes adoringly at him...while wagging her tail. *eye roll*

I don't think it's as not trusting the vet. Some dogs resource guard their owners and sometimes it's easier for the vet to just go bam bam, your done. Some people can't stand to hear their dog vocalize their displeasure at the vet....and we all pretty much know how big Drama Queens GSDs can be.
Even if I had to muzzle my dog...I'd still want to be there. I wouldn't feel like I have a good working relationship with the doctor if they did what your vet does.


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## Aescleah

my current vet tries to take my dog into the back i tell him no he or she is where ever i go so far that has not caused any issues and you better believe i will walk out of a clinic if they tried to force me to leave the room or run off with my dog i used to work for a vet never ever leave your dog alone for a exam surgery is one thing but for normal stuff no way

Ashley


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## atruepastime

As a vet tech, we usually tend to take the dogs out the back at my clinic to have their nails clipped/ blood taken/ anal glands expressed etc., if the owner requests to be with the animal we'll oblige them in a consult room provided teh dog stays calm, if its starts panicking, we'll take it out the back. 
Our main reason is that dogs tend to behave in a more relaxed manner without the owner in the room, once they are are from their pack, they are less likely to try and draw assistance from their owner to get them away from the techs and vets that are trying to hold him still for whatever treatment required... at least I think that must be what be going on, either that or the dogs behave better because they are away from any anxiety or stress the owner might be giving off unwittingly (usually stressy dogs have owners that are worrying themselves if their dog is going to get distressed at being held by a stranger, or if it will try and bite the vet). When the vet is away from the owner he/ she can be more relaxed without the scrutiny and worries of the owner peering down at them while they are trying to do something that requires concentration like sticking a jugular vein in a trembling dog for example. I don't mean to make a generalisation for all owners, many are a great help at restraining their pet calmly, but its usually the ones that balk at their pet being taken out the back that are the ones that stress out the most). At my practice the animal that is taken out the back is surrounded by calm but firm energy which encourages them into submitting and allowing the vets to handle them better. 
There are the techs/ vets that will scold a boisterous or hyperactive dog into submission (so they will sit still for their treatment), from my experience the staff I've worked with usually they are so accustomed to reading the body language of so many different dogs they can tell when a dog needs to be spoken to calmly and when they need to be told to behave in a firmer tone of voice, resulting in a calmer dog. Not sure if this has helped or hindered your trust in your vets/ vet techs, but this is my honest experience in the industry, I have been blessed to work with a team that genuinely care and try to help each patient with dedication.. can't speak for all the vets and techs out there obviously, but anyway theres my two bob worth


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## Verivus

atruepastime said:


> As a vet tech, we usually tend to take the dogs out the back at my clinic to have their nails clipped/ blood taken/ anal glands expressed etc., if the owner requests to be with the animal we'll oblige them in a consult room provided teh dog stays calm, if its starts panicking, we'll take it out the back.
> Our main reason is that dogs tend to behave in a more relaxed manner without the owner in the room, once they are are from their pack, they are less likely to try and draw assistance from their owner to get them away from the techs and vets that are trying to hold him still for whatever treatment required... at least I think that must be what be going on, either that or the dogs behave better because they are away from any anxiety or stress the owner might be giving off unwittingly (usually stressy dogs have owners that are worrying themselves if their dog is going to get distressed at being held by a stranger, or if it will try and bite the vet). When the vet is away from the owner he/ she can be more relaxed without the scrutiny and worries of the owner peering down at them while they are trying to do something that requires concentration like sticking a jugular vein in a trembling dog for example. I don't mean to make a generalisation for all owners, many are a great help at restraining their pet calmly, but its usually the ones that balk at their pet being taken out the back that are the ones that stress out the most). At my practice the animal that is taken out the back is surrounded by calm but firm energy which encourages them into submitting and allowing the vets to handle them better.
> There are the techs/ vets that will scold a boisterous or hyperactive dog into submission (so they will sit still for their treatment), from my experience the staff I've worked with usually they are so accustomed to reading the body language of so many different dogs they can tell when a dog needs to be spoken to calmly and when they need to be told to behave in a firmer tone of voice, resulting in a calmer dog. Not sure if this has helped or hindered your trust in your vets/ vet techs, but this is my honest experience in the industry, I have been blessed to work with a team that genuinely care and try to help each patient with dedication.. can't speak for all the vets and techs out there obviously, but anyway theres my two bob worth


I 2nd this. That's how it works at my clinic. If you request it they will do it in the exam room, otherwise the pet is taken in the back because typically the dogs/cats are calmer away from their owners.


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## elisabeth_00117

I am with my dog the whole time, unless it is a surgery or the dog needs to be put under, in which instance, I can be with him until he falls asleep or is groggy.

I would NEVER allow my dog to be by himself in those situation, I trust the vet but *I* know my dog and *I* want to know what is happening and why.

We did a skin scrapping on Stark several times over the last few months where they take a blade, scrape the 'sore area' on the tip of his muzzle/nose until the top layer of skin is off - I was able to help steady him (I wasn't really needed because he was so good, but I was there) and also give him that little bit of confidence and assurance.


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## atruepastime

I should add that the vet physical exam and vaccinations and eye/ skin/ ear exams are all done with the owner in the room most of the time.. its only when the vet gets a feeling from the dogs demeanor that it might be calmer away from its owners that it is removed from the consult room. I would think it weird that the vet exclude the client completely wile doing the initial physical exam unless the animal was particularly aggressive/ stressed.


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## Samba

Surgery today...so I plan to be there for induction and emergence from anesthrsia. My dogs will do what I say so generally it is best if I am there for blood draws, vaccines, etc.
I like to keep stress minimal at the vet and being taken from me does not seem to lend itself to that goal.


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## DnP

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I am with my dog the whole time, unless it is a surgery or the dog needs to be put under, in which instance, I can be with him until he falls asleep or is groggy.
> 
> I would NEVER allow my dog to be by himself in those situation, I trust the vet but *I* know my dog and *I* want to know what is happening and why.


Ditto. I have never gone, nor would go to, a vet where I couldn't be present during everything except surgery. Like Elisabeth, I know my dog and I want to know what is happening to him and why. Would parents let a doctor exam their young child without being present???


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## JakodaCD OA

yes, and I've watched some surgeries and procedures on my own dogs as well.


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## Dainerra

I voted wrong.. I was reading the actual thread, so thought that the question was "does your vet let you stay in the room" 

Only once has a vet even asked to take a dog to the back. That was when we had Freya euthanized; the vet asked if it would be ok to take her to the back for the port, so that any "bad" feelings would be directed to them. She didn't want us to get even more upset and make things worse for Frey. She was gone less than 5 minutes.

Otherwise, stitches and all other procedures have always been done right there in the exam room. I do know a couple of people (same vet clinic) that are asked to NOT be present, but that is because they are huge drama queens. "OMG my poor baby!!!!!" until they have the dog in an absolute panic. One woman starts this drama scene in the parking lot of the clinic (no wonder her dog has to be sedated to go!) They've actually requested that someone other than her bring the dog in.

I've been present for stitches, exams, vaccines, aspirations, ear cleanings, wound cleanings, etc etc etc Never has anyone even mentioned doing those things in the back. Take that back, the only question ever asked was "will this make you squeamish" on the first visit.


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## jillian

I stay with my dog the entire time while at the vet, although I am VERY fortunate to have an awesome, trustworthy vet that I would leave any of my dogs with since I know with 100% certainty that she would do right by them.


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## vat

While it may be true with a few dogs that they are calmer without the owner I do not believe it is the case with most dogs. I will never allow my dog in the back again but only for x-rays or surgery. All of my dogs have done better with me there to talk to them etc. 

As an example, when Rio had to have his ultrasound for his kidneys they did it in the exam room. He had to be on his back so there was the Vet and 2 techs to hold him. He started struggling so I sat at his head stroked him and talked to him. He calmed right down. Had they done this in back they would have ended up sedating him, NOT something you want to do to a kidney patient.


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## VomBlack

atruepastime said:


> As a vet tech, we usually tend to take the dogs out the back at my clinic to have their nails clipped/ blood taken/ anal glands expressed etc., if the owner requests to be with the animal we'll oblige them in a consult room provided teh dog stays calm, if its starts panicking, we'll take it out the back.
> Our main reason is that dogs tend to behave in a more relaxed manner without the owner in the room, once they are are from their pack, they are less likely to try and draw assistance from their owner to get them away from the techs and vets that are trying to hold him still for whatever treatment required... at least I think that must be what be going on, either that or the dogs behave better because they are away from any anxiety or stress the owner might be giving off unwittingly (usually stressy dogs have owners that are worrying themselves if their dog is going to get distressed at being held by a stranger, or if it will try and bite the vet). When the vet is away from the owner he/ she can be more relaxed without the scrutiny and worries of the owner peering down at them while they are trying to do something that requires concentration like sticking a jugular vein in a trembling dog for example. I don't mean to make a generalisation for all owners, many are a great help at restraining their pet calmly, but its usually the ones that balk at their pet being taken out the back that are the ones that stress out the most). At my practice the animal that is taken out the back is surrounded by calm but firm energy which encourages them into submitting and allowing the vets to handle them better.
> There are the techs/ vets that will scold a boisterous or hyperactive dog into submission (so they will sit still for their treatment), from my experience the staff I've worked with usually they are so accustomed to reading the body language of so many different dogs they can tell when a dog needs to be spoken to calmly and when they need to be told to behave in a firmer tone of voice, resulting in a calmer dog. Not sure if this has helped or hindered your trust in your vets/ vet techs, but this is my honest experience in the industry, I have been blessed to work with a team that genuinely care and try to help each patient with dedication.. can't speak for all the vets and techs out there obviously, but anyway theres my two bob worth


This is how the clinic I work at pretty much handles things too. If the dog (and more importantly the owner) are calm and composed in the room then the doctor will work right in the room.. but like mentioned often times you get owners who are stressed, and some who think anything than a very light restraint is going to harm their dog, so sometimes it's just easier and faster to work in the back.

I've been fortunate enough to be working in a veterinary position for 6 years so i've been able to assist with my pets during exams and surgery and all that. Odin grew up coming into work with me so he's at the point where he's comfortable even being handed at the vet without me present, and even then I'd much rather be there with him. Perhaps i'm a little protective. :crazy:


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## Rerun

I wouldn't go to a vet that took them to the back. In fact, it was one of the many reasons I left a practice I'd been going to for 17 years +/-

They go to the point that they wanted to do everything in the back, and sometimes even had people in the waiting room waiting for their pet to be delivered back to them. Uh, no.

I'm very calm, and very experienced with my dogs and how to hold and handle them during procedures, and they do as I tell them. I had never had this problem with the original owner and his staff, but as things tend to do, he basically retired and staff started turning over pretty fast. They were rude, too quick, and turned into an in and out type of place with jacked up rates. I changed to a vet I'd been using for my horses for about 10 years, as they had developed a very nice small animal practice as well. I am SO HAPPY I changed! It's worth the 45 minute drive.

I've seen just about everything you can see done to a dog, including operations.


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## goatdude

all depends on what is being done. I am usually present for things like a check up, routine shots, etc. For blood work they take her in back but no real harm ever seems to come to her. One vet that I don't see anymore used to get some female employee that looked like an East German woman's shotputter and have her restrain the dog while they administered shots. That amount of force was not necessary. The rough handling made her very afraid of that office, she would visibly tremble in there after that incident. I muzzle her now, not that she's aggressive towards the staff but just to put more of them at ease because we all know how ill tempered these GSDs are.


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## Liesje

Honestly I've never asked but I don't think it would be a problem since I've gone to the "back" for other things (to look at x-rays on a large lightbox, get one of my pets out of a cage, etc). When we do x-rays I drop my dog off in the morning and pick them up after work, just can't wait around when I work full time and the dogs have never had a problem (they probably like getting attention and going out to potty during the day b/c usually they are home alone). A few times the vet has taken my dog "to the back" for something and I haven't gone with but didn't ask. Twice Coke got a hotspot and had to have it shaved and cleaned, and recently Nikon needed his infected nail trimmed back, cleaned, and wrapped. This is stuff where they don't keep every supply in every exam room. They are not giving injections or anything like that without me present. My dogs go willingly and come back acting normal, it's not like they are scared of the vet or have to be muzzled. I suppose if I had a nervous dog I would ask to go with, and I doubt my vet would care. Blood draws, exams, vaccinations...most stuff is already done in the exam room, no need to ask to be present b/c I already am.


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## Anja1Blue

Yes, my vet WANTS you to be there so she can explain her findings, and show you at the same time. The only thing I'm not present for is X-rays (her machine is in rather a confined area) and surgery. I am a very curious person by nature, and I always have questions - plus I like to see what is being done, so I would not be comfortable being asked to remain in another location and would not use a vet who required me to do so.
______________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waitinbg at the Bridge :angel:


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## fuzzybunny

I stay as well because Jazz is very nervous at the vet. The techs usually ask me if I can hold him because he's calmer with me. When he got neutered I was also with him for the induction of anesthesia.


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## kiya

Well I voted "yes no big deal" depending on the situation. I am always in the exam room with my vet no matter which dog and what they are doing. Even last week when I brought Lakota in to be spayed, I was with her right up to when they gave her the anesthisia. I admit I didn't need to see her laying there with her tongue hanging out. Since she is so nervous there, doctor thought it would be better. They also called me the minute she woke up. If my "current" vet were to ask me to take her into a room with out me I would let her, I trust them and have watched how they are trying to get Lakota to trust them. 
Back in 2005 when I was taking the dogs to my other vet (horse vet) and Kiya had cluster seizures I found out that when I picked her up that night, they kept her in a cage with a muzzle on all day. I was absolutely furious and to this day haven't forgiven them for that. There was absolutely no reason to have kept a muzzle on her all day. It was horrible she was so drugged up and scared, she's been terrified of vets since then. If I say "Doctor" she looks at me like "oh no not me".


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## onyx'girl

I'm always present and assist my vet during routine procedures. I helped the vet when Onyx had to have emergency aural hematoma surgery. 
I can see the point of the animal being calmer when the owner isn't present, and the point that the owners presence is calming. 
Onyx has FA with the vet, so it is usually best that I am there at her head while the vet/techs do their thing.
She isn't one that will sedate easily either, she fights it and never really gets knocked out unless they give her a huge dose. 
When she had her ear surgery, even with gas, she took forever to go under.


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## lylol

Since I have multiple dogs, my vet and I have created a good relationship... he knows I do my research on health issues, am not squeamish, and am a good judge of my dogs mental state and a good presence for my dogs. In this economy his staff has gotten smaller and less experienced, so I am usually a better choice to hold the dog etc. I feel very lucky to have someone who respects my opinion and includes me in the treatment. But many owners he sees are happy to have their dog whisked to the back and then delivered back to the owner "all done". If you like your vet, just not the process, talk to him and see if he will make an exception for you. You can always "vote with your feet" and try another vet.


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## DCluver33

no way!! my vet usually takes the animals to a room to give shots while you wait in the lobby. I always request to go with my dog. you don't take my dog with out me bring there unless it'd something that has to be done in the back. I loved my old vet he did almost everything in front of you, he's since retired  and I had to find a new vet. I like my new vet just not some of the vet techs. I had to remind a vet tech to give Dodger his rabies shot when I shouldn't have had to do so.


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## ken k

i`m always present when my group goes to the vets, only thing I was not present for was Max`s recent bloat surgery, and that was my choice


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## TriadGSD

first time i took Triad to the vet they took him back to weigh him after that they have me take him to weigh they have the owners with the pets the whole time for routine check ups they explain everything and answer any questions you may have. plus theres only one vetinarian so you pretty much wait in the exam room.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I feel envious of some of you after reading the posts about how you were with your dog when they woke up from surgery. When my dog had surgery last month I took him in on a friday, and spoke to the vet in a consultation room to show her how he had suffered a complication from the neutering and now required a scrotal ablation. The vet told me that they would operate on him right away because he was in pain, and was running a fever from the pain, she told me to call back after 3 to see how the surgery went and then she took me dog back. I left there crying, worrying about me dog. That is the day that I found this forum. The next day (Saturday) I called the vets and told them that I wanted to see my dog so they let me see him in the consultation room. They then told me that my dog had to stay until monday, and that I couldn't call or see him on sunday because they were technically closed till then. It was a long weekend for me!


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## Witz

Having built a strong relationship with the team of Vets that we use, I am allowed anywhere anytime. They also know that I have a been involved in the Healthcare world for over 35 years that I am very knowledgeable and can be of assistance to them. I would say that if you have a good Vet, they should not fear making any OOP's that they would not want you to see. I know that we do not live in a perfect world and s__t happens. 
My new pup and I have gone to the Hospital on non-treatment days and walk thru the back while Surgery's have been going on. It will make it easier on the dog should they have to be surgically treated in the future.


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## shannonrae

I have worked for a few different doctors. All of them allowed owners to be present during exam/nail trims/any minor procedure. 

Actually, just recently the doctor I worked with allowed and especially nervous woman to be present while her dog was under anesthesia. The doctor performed the procedure, while I monitored vitals. When I monitor an animal under anesthesia my attention is on the animal 100%. I am monitoring MM color, CRT time, HR, RR, temp, SPO2. My eyes NEVER leave the dog. 

So, I am monitoring, nervous Mom is standing there wringing her hands, nervous darting eyes, rapid fire questions @ the vet and I. She proceeds to push ME out of the way to check the dogs vitals, placed her hand on the dogs muzzle and exclaims HE IS NOT BREATHING! And goes into a panic, the dog WAS breathing FINE (his O2 level was 99%, with his last breath being 6-10 sec prior to her checking). She continued this behavior throughout the entire procedure. 
I wish that owner had NOT been present! I am not a "newbie" to this job, I work at the local emergency vet, I have been around a few anesthetized animals. I am very keen and quick to act on any issues that may arise. She was lucky I was able to remain calm and focused during her outbursts and keep my attention on the animal. 

It is similar (small scale) with simple procedures. If the owner is being a nervous wreck during the nail trim, blood draw or whatever it may be . . . I may wish for them to not be present, allowing me to focus on the dog and effectively do my job.

If you can remain calm, courteous, and allow me to do my job I personally have no problem having any pet owner watching me do anything. I even enjoy the company at times!

That being said . . . here's some food for thought. Did you know that if your dog bites you while you are trying to restrain it at the vets office you could sue the office?
Having staff hold the dog may mean CYA to the business owner!


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## Rerun

I would think that an especially nervous person, per your quote, would be the LAST person you would want to let be with the dog during something like that, vs someone who is calm and collected and simply wants to be there.


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## selzer

I put yes, because My regular vet usually allows me to do whatever, I have even helped with x-rays during an off-hours emergency. Once, a few years back they started taking the dogs in the back for blood drawing. I did not like that. It did not last long. 

I do not like when they have to stick my dog several times to get blood. But I would rather be there and see what is going on. I keep my mouth shut about it and my thoughts to myself mostly. Sometimes, the grimaces show. But still, I would rather be there. 

When Arwen was going in for her c-section/spay -- different vet, I asked if I could help, and he looked like I was from Mars and said, no way. Ok. Most of them do not let you help in the surgery.

When Jenna had hers -- Animal Clinic Northview in N. Ridgeville, I was right there watching the whole surgery and the ultra-sound prior to the surgery, each puppy had an vet tech working on it, and then they handed them off to me, so I could hold them. 

One of the things I HATE about Mentor Emergency is that they take the dog away from you to take blood, etc. 

I do not think I would want to watch most surgeries, but c-section -- yeah, I would be right in there watching again. I HOPE I never need to go through another. But if I do, I can stand and watch the proceedings. 

At Akron when Arwen had her ultrasound, I went back out to wait in the waiting room with my dad. Eventhough I handed the leash to the vet, we walked together for a while until he turned toward ultrasound. Arwen was between us, she kept walking with me, I pointed down the other hall, and said "Go with him" and she turned and went with him. That dog understood English. We always said she was half-human. 

When your dog trusts you enough to go with someone else, and then if something awful happens to them in there, that would really, really tick me off. I can understand how sometimes the owners emotions can make it harder on the dog though, more resistance and fuss. I think you have to go into it with the understanding that you need to make this easier on the dog, and that means NOT getting freaked out, angry, or nervous.


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## Stosh

Our vet clinic has 3 vets and usually 2 of them are there all the time- they do everything in the exam room with the owner present unless it's an unusual situation or the owner doesn't want to be. They even show the owner the medication they're about to give. That being said, I'm very comfortable with the team of vets and wouldn't worry if for some reason they did have to treat him out of my presence.


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## shannonrae

Rerun said:


> I would think that an especially nervous person, per your quote, would be the LAST person you would want to let be with the dog during something like that, vs someone who is calm and collected and simply wants to be there.


Exactly my point. You never know what the owner will be like until the scenario plays out. Hence the desire to remove the owner from the situation to prevent potential added stress.

The owner REFUSED to leave, the procedure was an emergency and had to be performed. Unfortunately for the dog it created more hazard than anything.

I totally understand the concern over multiple pokes for a blood draw. 
Sometimes veins roll out of the way of the needle, sometimes they collapse, sometimes they will tear and blow, occasionally there is a needle with a defect that s not visible. . . Ultimately it is the dogs that suffer. I always hate to "repoke". Fortunately for me I am usually a pretty god shot!


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## suzzyq01

Depends on what they are doing. Drawing blood, vaccines, and so on I ask they do it with me present. Expressing anal gland they can have them haha. Really haven't had to have too much done at the vet. Some stitches in Onyx's leg when he was attacked by a intact unruly 180lbs St Bernard. They put him out and stitched him up and tried to keep him there overnight and I was like um no he can wake up in my home where it is free not $80 for the night to wake up in a cage and panic so they let me take him home. I like my vet.


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## arycrest

I didn't vote ... a lot depends on the Hooligan I take in and on the procedure they need to do in the back. I've been going to my vet for a number of years and I trust her decision on what she wants to do and where she wants it done.


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## JeffM

I wouldn't go to such a place. We are in with our animals at all times. 

I've been asked a few times to assist them when taken to the back for XRays/Blood withdrawal, etc. Small town though, so might have something to do with it.


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## Catu

Absolutely. I've also been for small surgeries, X-Rays (lately it seems I have my own lead apron at the vet hospital) and I get my dogs to or from the kennels if they stay or have to wait for something. For big surgeries I've opted to be outside, I do not know how can react, specially if something goes wrong and the less the vet needs is to worry about his job, the patient and me.


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## selzer

I wish my dog could be present at MY doctor appointments. 

I mean, maybe the doc with think twice before coming at me with that apparatus if my toothy companion was getting nervous.

Maybe they would make sure they were cutting on the right extremity if they knew my Babsy would be sitting there scrutinizing them through another procedure.

I wonder if my dog would be better than the anesthesiologists at knowing that I am awake and aware of what they are doing when I am supposed to be oblivious.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I feel envious of some of you after reading the posts about how you were with your dog when they woke up from surgery. When my dog had surgery last month I took him in on a friday, and spoke to the vet in a consultation room to show her how he had suffered a complication from the neutering and now required a scrotal ablation. The vet told me that they would operate on him right away because he was in pain, and was running a fever from the pain, she told me to call back after 3 to see how the surgery went and then she took *me* dog back. I left there crying, worrying about *me* dog. That is the day that I found this forum. The next day (Saturday) I called the vets and told them that I wanted to see my dog so they let me see him in the consultation room. They then told me that my dog had to stay until monday, and that I couldn't call or see him on sunday because they were technically closed till then. It was a long weekend for me!


hahaha, the bold me's are supposed to be my. I reread this and was like, "what the heck?"

After reading the responses here, I looked at the poll results and was a little surprised about the results so far. More people have said yes than no. Interesting.


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## Samba

Today I was with Hogan all the time...induction, intubation, surgery and recovery. Sitting on the floor now with him.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Samba said:


> Today I was with Hogan all the time...induction, intubation, surgery and recovery. Sitting on the floor now with him.


That is wonderful, although I know that I couldn't watch an actual surgery, although I would have liked to be with my dog prior to the actual surgery, and when he woke back up as well. I hope that your dog has a speedy, uncomplicated recovery.


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## shannonrae

Samba said:


> Today I was with Hogan all the time...induction, intubation, surgery and recovery. Sitting on the floor now with him.


This is fine, provided you were "well behaved" . When one of my dogs needs surgery, I usually opt out but pick another L.V.T I know and trust to sit in on the surgery. I don't have the stomach to sit in on the surgery of one of my own! :wild: I do like to recover my own pets though.


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## Davey Benson

My clinic is a small town clinic, where several of the DMV's still make house calls, and work on large animals. They are pretty relaxed with the rules reguarding acompaning your pet. I'm with my animals all I wish to be with their visits. I feel very comfortable with leaving my pets there for major treatments (spays, surgerys, etc.) I have watched part of a surgery once while consulting the surgan reguarding my own dogs care. (it was someone elses dog that was being operated on. I don't think I would like to watch my own pets surgery, too much emotional involvement there, but it was fasinating to watch someone elses pet being worked on.


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## Samba

I am a retired nurse and was director of surgery for awhile. It is not a strange environment to me and it doesn't bother me to see my dogs in the OR. I imagine that would not be the case for a lot of owners who would rather not observe all that. We all had a good time visiting as surgery progressed. 

Hogan woke up a bit confused about the belly pain. He did jump right into the car though as he was motivated to go home. Pain meds on board and resting in crate now.


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## rebelsgirl

The only time I am not with my pet at the vet is if he is doing Xrays or surgery. I've never left them in the room alone with them.

I can understand tho if the owner is in a anxious state and so is the dog. My dogs do well with me at the vet tho.


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## Chicagocanine

Oops, I misread the poll and answered it wrong.
My vet lets me stay with my pets during all procedures including surgery although I've only done this with minor procedures so far (biopsy, neuter, etc...)
Although, I do trust her so I would not have a problem if she treated my dog without me present if for some reason she needed to do so, however I prefer to be there and she lets me stay with my dog for everything (except x-rays-- I leave the room while the machine is running!)


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## beaderdog

Depends on the treatment. The only time I've been excluded has been when the treatment is not "routine maintenance", such as surgery. I'm there for pretty much everything else, including blood draws. I wouldn't use a vet practice that excluded me for what I'd consider "routine", though I understand that it's better if I'm not in the way when they're dealing with major stuff.


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## onyx'girl

I think for the smaller clinics I would be more inclined to let the vet and tech take my dog away from me to do procedures...but a mega clinic with several employees, not so trusting. Luckily I go to a small one/all employees are long term, not the turnover that some of the larger businesses must have. Still, I'd rather be with my dogs during all procedures.


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## AgileOllie

I actually get to go in and assist with neuters and spays and I helped with an after-hours emergency surgery on my dachshund when a pitbull dug into the yard and tried to eat him. I LOVE my vet and I drive 1.5 hours just to get my dogs to him.


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## DJEtzel

I would never go to a vet like this. The first vet we took Frag to took him to a back room to draw blood and hurt him, then manhandled him on a second visit behind our backs and freaked him out hardcore. We never went back.

Our current vet lets us restrain Frag and calm him down/treat him (since he's aggressive) and we go into the back weighing room with them to put him on the scale and tie him down, etc. I wouldn't have it any other way. When we took him in for his neuter we got to take him into the kennel and kennel him before we left.


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## Germanshepherdlova

AgileOllie said:


> I actually get to go in and assist with neuters and spays and I helped with an after-hours emergency surgery on my dachshund when a pitbull dug into the yard and tried to eat him. I LOVE my vet and I drive 1.5 hours just to get my dogs to him.


Do you help to neuter/spay other people's dogs? If so, are you professionally trained to do so?


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## onyx'girl

your poll is tied right now...36-36


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Im in the room with my guys with the exception of surgery. I've been in 4 different practices Hated my first vet,liked my second we would still be with her if she had a practice,liked the


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Sorry about that,my page started rolling. so Ill finish promptly.My point was here in the Mahoning Valley I dont know a vet who doesnt have the owners in with them.I agree though the megs clinics have high turover rates and often inexperienced people. My first vet gave daisy her final vaccinations in the middle of the office with out greeting her and charged me an office visit on top of the cost of the vaccination. She was in a Small practice ,perhaps her bedside manner contributedtothe practice size.


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## Chicagocanine

At my vet's office the scale is in the lobby so they don't take the dog back for weighing either. The only time they usually take them into the back is for surgeries, dentals or that sort of thing (and my vet lets me come with.)



onyx'girl said:


> your poll is tied right now...36-36


Yeah but at least two people made a mistake voting... I misread it and voted wrong, then I saw someone else said they did the same...


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## CainGSD

I don't leave my dogs. My current vet is awesome and I trust her completely. The techs come and go so I don't always know them and consequently trust them. My dogs are wonderful at the vet and I intend to make sure they remain that way.

I have had several different vets over the years that have allowed me to be present during all sorts of procedures from routine shots and exams to spay/neuters, patella surgeries and dentals. The only spot I haven't been allowed is in xray but I usually hang by the door. For me if I am not allowed to stay with my dog we are going to be looking elsewhere for our vet care.


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## Ucdcrush

With my current vet, there are times when they want to take the dog - e.g. to be weighed, or to do something on an operating table, like apply a bandage around the paw or something. I ALWAYS say I'm going with them, even if they automatically assume they are taking the dog away.. and I always go. In my mind, it is automatic that I WILL be there, so there is no hesitation on my part and it has never felt uncomfortable to assert that I will be there too.

If they put up a fuss about it, I would look for another vet, but these guys have been good.

A few years back, when my dog Dana was in her last month or so, I took her to a new vet, having not been to any vet in a long time, and he took her back to do something -- a blood draw, weight or something, and I heard her yelp. In her condition at the time, and my emotional state knowing that tough decisions were upcoming, I really did not like it. I do not assume that she was being abused, but for various reasons I did not go back to that vet, and I will never NOT accompany my dog at any vet visit, unless of course it's a surgery where I drop the dog off for the day.


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## warpwr

I think it would depend on the nature of the visit.
Heck, when Miss Molly went in for her puppy shots and pills and examination one time both Diane and I, our other dog and the vet were all in the exam room at once.
But for a broken bone, or something serious like that, I don't think he would want us all (or any of us for that matter) in the way and we trust him with our animals completely.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Chicagocanine said:


> At my vet's office the scale is in the lobby so they don't take the dog back for weighing either. The only time they usually take them into the back is for surgeries, dentals or that sort of thing (and my vet lets me come with.)
> 
> 
> Yeah but at least two people made a mistake voting... I misread it and voted wrong, then I saw someone else said they did the same...


And it is tied 39 to 38 now, but I haven't voted yet. I am waiting until I make up my mind as far as if I will continue to allow this vet to take my dog back by himself, or perhaps I will change vets altogether. The vet that I took Brutus to when he was a puppy used to let me go back there. I changed vets though because I felt that the vet was very money hungry and didn't care anything about the animals, only about making money off of them.


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## katieliz

can't vote either way since it depends on what's going on. for sera and the cashman, if it's just a nail trim or a blood draw, i let the tech (always the same tech who is like their second mother, and they're never sedated), take them...if they're going to be sedated in any way or have any kind of surgery, i stay with them...in the kennel area before, in the OR during, in recovery after. all except for when C had his knee surgery at the specialty hospital and it was too far away, and took too long, and there was no one to be with the other dogs at home, and i was a wreck. they are my kidz.


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## Germanshepherdlova

katieliz said:


> can't vote either way since it depends on what's going on. for sera and the cashman, if it's just a nail trim or a blood draw, i let the tech (always the same tech who is like their second mother, and they're never sedated), take them...if they're going to be sedated in any way or have any kind of surgery, i stay with them...in the kennel area before, in the OR during, in recovery after. all except for when C had his knee surgery at the specialty hospital and it was too far away, and took too long, and there was no one to be with the other dogs at home, and i was a wreck. they are my kidz.


This question has absolutely nothing to do with my post but I am overcome with curiosity, how did you come about naming your dog The Cashman?


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## katieliz

cash is a marhaven's color guard (the boss) son. he was born just after johnny cash died and his registered name is alta-tollhaus the man in black (not to be confused with his "uncle cash", marhaven's man in black). he has such a strong presence and energy that somehow his nickname just became "the cashman", he has his own car with plates that say "cashcar" (sera has a van with plates "seravan"), sometimes i call him just plain cash but most of the time, especially when i want him to know i mean business, it's hey...CASHMAN. he was born on my birthday, and from the time he walked in the door at 11 weeks old, his mission in life has been to make sure that no one even looks at his "mother" the wrong way. he can be a real pain in the tush and sometimes i tell him, "bud you're lucky you're so beautiful", lolol. he and sera have their own blog:

THE ADVENTURES OF SERAPHINA BLUE & THE MAN IN BLACK 

been awhile since i've updated, but there's my kidz! i am hopelessly devoted to them.

if you click on older posts it will take you back to when he was younger. if you click on "my complete profile" it will take you to my rescues' blogs. thanks for looking!


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## weber1b

I've had it done both ways. I think a lot may depend on exactly what is being done. Most of the time we are in with our dog at all times, but if I trust the vet, I'm OK either way. If I don't trust the vet, we wouldn't be there anyway.


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## WarrantsWifey

Our vet does most of the stuff in the room, but if it's something serious they take them to the back. I don't mind, I have a weak stomach most of the time when it comes to my pets....


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## Cassidy's Mom

My vet's office takes you into a room (there are 2), and then the vet and/or a tech comes in. Sometimes they do everything in the room, sometimes they'll take the animal into their treatment room in the back. I ask if I can come too (as a courtesy, rather than insisting), and I've never had them not say sure. It depends on what they're doing - sometimes it's easier for them to work in the treatment room since everything is right there, rather than finding what they want and bringing it to the rooms. 

I was there last night with Elvis, one of the cats, and we were going to go into the treatment room to draw some blood, but as it turned out a tech was already in there with a big dog, so we went back into the room. The vet had a tech carry Elvis in to weigh him (the small scale is in the treatment room, the floor scale is in the waiting room), and then they brought him back to the room. I totally trust them to work on my animals without me present, many times I've dropped a pet off and then picked them up later, but if I'm there I usually like to watch so I can see what they're doing and ask questions. 

Some dogs are more cooperative without their owners present, so I could see why a vet may prefer that. But barring any compelling reason otherwise, I think they should respect your wishes to come along when they take your dog into the back. With the dogs, I feed treats during uncomfortable things like having their temperature taken or blood drawn, and if they turn the dog around on the table my vet always has me move so that I'm in front and they can see me, which helps calm them.


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## spidermilk

I just got back from the vet! Our vet has you come back to the exam room with your dog. Sometimes I think it might be better if we stayed up and the vet and tech just did their thing in the back. They are VERY calm and patient with our dog. Dax was just fine during the entire exam, shots, and getting blood drawn but when it was time to get the intranasal Bordatella vaccine (need it for boarding) he started struggling and whining a lot.

I do think that although I try to be *very* calm I AM a worryer and Dax can probably tell that I'm a little stressed. No doubt this transfers to him. In the meantime I will up my mock vet exams at home to include some weird nose stuff...

So I understand why some vets don't want the owners there, on the other hand I understand why some owners don't trust the vets and want to be there.


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## AgileOllie

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Do you help to neuter/spay other people's dogs? If so, are you professionally trained to do so?


No  It's for my rescues that come in. I've been doing rescue for 11 years


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## SpookyShepherd

Another oops vote here. I think, in general, the practice I use prefers to take most animals back for anything more than routine check-up and vaccs. That being said, I have stayed with my animals for all their visits. I use one of the four vets at the practice (he actually took care of my parents' cats 15 years ago) and he knows that I'm totally calm and comfortable with anything done to the animal. I do the restraints for everything, including when they scraped my cat's eye for a minor ulcer. He also knows that I have a horse and am present for those vet visits too... so he probably figures I can handle just about anything. So far so good <knocks on wood>


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## AuberryShortcake

My vet is cool with me being in the room, they do everything with me there. I can't imagine a vet not being ok with it, unless it was obvious the owner was stressing out the dog...


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## hunterisgreat

I held my male while they did a bladder sample via catheter with no anestesia whatsoever


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## doggiedad

i use 2 Vets. 1 of my Vets is traditonal and the
other one more on the Holistic side. both
of Vets allow you in the exam room.


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## Smiling_Shepherd

I always insist on being with physically present with my dogs at all times at the vet. The only except has during surgery. Here, I am ok being outside of the surgical area as long as I can observe.

If the vet doesn't allow it, for whatever reason, I move on to another one.


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## Germanshepherdlova

hunterisgreat said:


> I held my male while they did a bladder sample via catheter with no anestesia whatsoever


Ouch-that sounds painful.


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## shannonrae

AuberryShortcake said:


> My vet is cool with me being in the room, they do everything with me there. I can't imagine a vet not being ok with it, unless it was obvious the owner was stressing out the dog...


Unfortunately the neurotic owners do not realize they are hindering any efforts on the part of the staff to do their job properly. . . In their mind the worries are valid.


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## katieliz

excuse me shannonrae, i assure you i have never hindered any veterinary staff in any way from doing their job properly. and i also think it's inappropriate for you to make that judgement when you couldn't possibly know what your talking about, since you have never been there with me or any of the other posters who may have very valid reasons for their worries, and not be neurotic at all (neurotic is a mental health disorder that can only be diagnosed by personal interview and testing). now if you're just using it as an uneducated "figure of speech", that's a different story...

and...i also want to say that vets, techs, docs and all medical professionals make a huge number of mistakes that can have lasting and, indeed, even lifelong or life-ending effects on their patients. i can say with relative certainty that anyone who has total "faith" in the medical profession, whether it be veterinary or human medicine, is either foolish or naive.


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## Zisso

I am always in the room with the vet as she examines my dogs. One is far too nervous and anxious to escape the vet office and the other has a known issue with nipping so I am there, plus the vet & I discuss what is going on as she examines them.

When it comes to surgery, I have gone to the same vet for years now so I do trust them and do not interfere with surgery procedures by insisting on being present. The last time I used a vet clinic other than my own was when I had Nadia spayed and they nicked her spleen, so I have never trusted them since. Rather than to try to save money I go where I have a healthy relationship with all the staff and know I can trust them.


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## Blazings

I believe in this country it's quite normal that you're there during the examination and everything. Not during a major procedure of course, but when they get shots and stuff it helps when the owner is there to calm the dog down


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## AbbyK9

I would never let the vet or vet tech take my dog "in the back" for any reason. Simple as that. And if the clinic has an issue with that, I will gladly take my business elsewhere.

We previously lived in southern Virginia and went to one of the local vet clinics. At the first visit, we explained that we did not allow our dog to be taken by anyone else and ensured that this was alright and not an issue. It wasn't. But we also made it clear that we'd gladly go elsewhere if it was.

Where we are now, I have a vet about 5 minutes away that I don't go to because they won't let me handle the dog during exams. (And they have dogs belonging to the staff running loose in the waiting room. Not to mention the staff were jerks when we went to check out the clinic after moving here.)

Instead, I drive 45 minutes to go to the vet on base for all our routine care stuff. (They provide full service for the working dogs stationed there, but don't do, for example, dental work beyond cleaning for pets.) There are military vets and military vet techs there. It's routine with the working dogs that the handler holds the dog for procedures - drawing blood, giving shots, etc. so it's never, ever been an issue when we've gone there and we didn't even have to ask.


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## Fringes

I wouldn't ever use a clinic that wouldn't allow owners to be present.The chances of anything bad becoming of my dogs are incredibly low, and not why I like to be there. 

I had an old vet who was constantly in a rush, detached from the work, and wouldn't spend any time addressing my concerns. He got the job done, sure, but my current vet will spend as long as it takes answering questions and honestly seems to care about my animals. 

Besides, my dog deals poorly with the vet. When I'm there, he's like anxiety in slow motion. Without someone he knows to anchor on, he will hide and shake and drool. It's a sorry sight and not a state I want my dog to go through if at all possible.


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## Germanshepherdlova

AbbyK9 said:


> I would never let the vet or vet tech take my dog "in the back" for any reason. Simple as that. And if the clinic has an issue with that, I will gladly take my business elsewhere.
> 
> We previously lived in southern Virginia and went to one of the local vet clinics. At the first visit, we explained that we did not allow our dog to be taken by anyone else and ensured that this was alright and not an issue. It wasn't. But we also made it clear that we'd gladly go elsewhere if it was.
> 
> Where we are now, *I have a vet about 5 minutes away that I don't go to because they won't let me handle the dog during exams.* (And they have dogs belonging to the staff running loose in the waiting room. Not to mention the staff were jerks when we went to check out the clinic after moving here.)
> 
> Instead, I drive 45 minutes to go to the vet on base for all our routine care stuff. (They provide full service for the working dogs stationed there, but don't do, for example, dental work beyond cleaning for pets.) There are military vets and military vet techs there. It's routine with the working dogs that the handler holds the dog for procedures - drawing blood, giving shots, etc. so it's never, ever been an issue when we've gone there and we didn't even have to ask.


The vets proximity to my house is one of the reasons that I take my dogs to this vet. Also because you don't need an appointment, they see you on a walk in basis except for surgeries which must be scheduled. I was never pleased about letting them take my dog in the back. When my dog was a puppy I used to drive to the next city over to see a vet there because he welcomed you to come back with your pet, but there were a few things that I didn't like about this vet so I decided to give the one near my house a try. I am going to begin looking for a new vet. If anyone around the Cleveland Ohio area has any recommendations I'd appreciate it.


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## doggiedad

too funny.



selzer said:


> I wish my dog could be present at MY doctor appointments.
> 
> I mean, maybe the doc with think twice before coming at me with that apparatus if my toothy companion was getting nervous.
> 
> Maybe they would make sure they were cutting on the right extremity if they knew my Babsy would be sitting there scrutinizing them through another procedure.
> 
> I wonder if my dog would be better than the anesthesiologists at knowing that I am awake and aware of what they are doing when I am supposed to be oblivious.


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## shannonrae

katieliz said:


> excuse me shannonrae, i assure you i have never hindered any veterinary staff in any way from doing their job properly. and i also think it's inappropriate for you to make that judgement when you couldn't possibly know what your talking about, since you have never been there with me or any of the other posters who may have very valid reasons for their worries, and not be neurotic at all (neurotic is a mental health disorder that can only be diagnosed by personal interview and testing). now if you're just using it as an uneducated "figure of speech", that's a different story...


You are excused!  
I am not saying anyone here is like that at all. I recently told a story which is related to this comment. If you would kindly read my post on this thread.

In 8 years in veterinary medicine and all the clients I have had watching me do my job (MANY, MANY owners) only a small handful have been a hindrance. When an owner is physically pushing you out of the way while you are trying to monitor their anesthetized animal that is a PROBLEM! And only the dog will suffer! Keep in mind the entire time "Mom" is panicking, "Dad" is yelling at her to calm down, and the dog is totally stable. So, while the owner gets in the way and is not allowing me to do my job and the dog crashes, who do you suppose will get the blame? Certainly NOT the owner. Not to mention the poor dog. (For the record the dog thankfully, was fine).

That was an explanation of WHY some veterinary staff may not be comfortable with the owner in the room. The problem is there is no way to tell who will get in the way and who will stand and watch quietly. So, perhaps, through bad experiences some clinics choose to eliminate all risks.

I did not intend to say that all owners that wish to be with their dog are neurotic. When my teammates do things with my dogs I am present (exc. surgery). So, my feelings are basically the same as yours. 

In reality nobody can make a sound judgment unless they have been on BOTH sides of the fence . . .


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## brembo

I had a strange experience with my vet a few years back. Banjo is a big lover-boy and quite enjoys his vet trips, it's really pleasant and fun for all. However the vet techs did something that they could NOT have possibly known would create a problem. 

They took off his collar when he "went into the back" for a blood sample. Normally Banjo complies and is more interested in who is going to rub his ears than a tiny little needle. The problem is that when the collar is off, in his mind that means he's going to be there awhile and if I'm not included in that equation he gets a bit fussy. So when the techs popped his collar he became obstinate and refused to allow any of the techs access to his body. He is a big, healthy, and immensely strong animal, and no petite tech has a chance in holding onto this dog without harm coming to someone or something. 

The vet and I were chatting when the feces hit the fan, and he asked that I pop back and control my dog. I walked in to a terrified dog and nervy people. I also saw that his collar was off and it only took a few seconds to figure out what was going on. With his collar back on, he calmed right down and was back to his normal goofy self.

I personally don't have issues with vets doing things without me present, but I DO wonder about the common sense of the practice. Sure, with a 20 pound beagle or the like, it's not a huge issue. With a 100-ish pound athletic dog armed with serious teeth, I personally would want the owner hovering about (assuming the owner wasn't stressing). I had a Border Collie that was quick as lightning and would give ZERO warning of a harsh nip (borderline bite really), but anyone of reasonable strength could physically restrain her, if Banjo went mental and he wasn't wearing his harness, he would be much much more difficult to contain. A small person could honestly be in mortal danger. Not his style, but the potential is there. Those kinds of thoughts would be banging around in my head if I were asked to escort a large powerful animal away from it's owner and then asked to do strange things to it. I'd want the owner to be near I think.


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## Germanshepherdlova

brembo said:


> I had a strange experience with my vet a few years back. Banjo is a big lover-boy and quite enjoys his vet trips, it's really pleasant and fun for all. However the vet techs did something that they could NOT have possibly known would create a problem.
> 
> They took off his collar when he "went into the back" for a blood sample. Normally Banjo complies and is more interested in who is going to rub his ears than a tiny little needle. The problem is that when the collar is off, in his mind that means he's going to be there awhile and if I'm not included in that equation he gets a bit fussy. So when the techs popped his collar he became obstinate and refused to allow any of the techs access to his body. He is a big, healthy, and immensely strong animal, and no petite tech has a chance in holding onto this dog without harm coming to someone or something.
> 
> The vet and I were chatting when the feces hit the fan, and he asked that I pop back and control my dog. I walked in to a terrified dog and nervy people. I also saw that his collar was off and it only took a few seconds to figure out what was going on. With his collar back on, he calmed right down and was back to his normal goofy self.
> 
> I personally don't have issues with vets doing things without me present, but I DO wonder about the common sense of the practice. Sure, with a 20 pound beagle or the like, it's not a huge issue. With a 100-ish pound athletic dog armed with serious teeth, I personally would want the owner hovering about (assuming the owner wasn't stressing). I had a Border Collie that was quick as lightning and would give ZERO warning of a harsh nip (borderline bite really), but anyone of reasonable strength could physically restrain her, if Banjo went mental and he wasn't wearing his harness, he would be much much more difficult to contain. A small person could honestly be in mortal danger. Not his style, but the potential is there. Those kinds of thoughts would be banging around in my head if I were asked to escort a large powerful animal away from it's owner and then asked to do strange things to it. I'd want the owner to be near I think.


This is a compelling reason for vets to WANT the owner to come back with their dog. There are so many seemingly little things that can set our dogs off, that only we owners know. In light of this it would be wise to have the owner near.


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## Xeph

My dogs are not allowed in the back with anybody, with surgery being an exception (duh). I am present for all procedures, and I handle my own dogs. The techs usually just stand in the corner and watch. They're there "just in case".


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## shannonrae

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This is a compelling reason for vets to WANT the owner to come back with their dog. There are so many seemingly little things that can set our dogs off, that only we owners know. In light of this it would be wise to have the owner near.


I agree with this. If I have a dog that truly does better when the owner is there, I will absolutely encourage them to stay. The truth is this is not common (really!). It would certainly make the job of the veterinary staff much easier if it were more common.  Most often the dogs do not act any differently whether the owner is there or not.


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## Wolfie907

I can't say I've ever gone to a vet who didn't have me present - other than for surgery, though ours will let you watch if you want to, they have a large window to the OR.


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## Tiffseagles

Our vet will allow us to stay and restrain our own dog.


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## southernfiction

Two female vets at two different practices took my animal away for preliminary testing without a) asking if they could take the animal, (b) asking if I was willing to pay for a fecal exam, etc., (c) caring what I thought! I liked the vets, but won't use either one again, unless for an emergency.


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## Germanshepherdlova

southernfiction said:


> Two female vets at two different practices took my animal away for preliminary testing without a) asking if they could take the animal, (b) asking if I was willing to pay for a fecal exam, etc., (c) caring what I thought! I liked the vets, but won't use either one again, unless for an emergency.


What a good point, I am looking for a new vet because of them attempting to drag my dog back by force and breaking his nail, and because of them doing all sorts of tests in the back without seeking my consent first-then the surprise bill.


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## ken k

got that up front with my vet right from the start, i`m always in there, except for Xrays and Maxs bloat surgery, I would never let a vet handle my dogs without me being there


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## sharkey19

As someone studying vet med, I can say when I get out into practice I will always ask the owner what they are more comfortable with. Some owners would rather not see their pet get poked. 

That being said, I hope owners will be honest with me about their dog's behaviour, and how likely it is to bite. As much as I want the owner and patient to be comfortable, my safety is important too.


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## Dooney's Mom

If my vet wouldn't let me stay I would find a new vet. Mine also allows me to try to restrain her as well if need be- when it came time for stitches removal- it took 3 people to hold her down and me holding her head to get them out (i probably could have taken them out at home with no problem but I wanted the incision checked!)


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## Syaoransbear

It's never been an issue with my vet. At the beginning of our vet visit she takes me into this larger room where the scale is and I get my dog to go on the scale, and then we go into a smaller room where she does his wellness exam and all of his vaccinations with me right there.

The room where they do the surgeries and stuff is right beside the waiting room and they have a glass window there so you can watch. Nothing is done without the owners being able to see what's going on.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Syaoransbear said:


> It's never been an issue with my vet. At the beginning of our vet visit she takes me into this larger room where the scale is and I get my dog to go on the scale, and then we go into a smaller room where she does his wellness exam and all of his vaccinations with me right there.
> 
> The room where they do the surgeries and stuff is right beside the waiting room and they have a glass window there so you can watch. Nothing is done without the owners being able to see what's going on.


Watch the surgery? Oh, I could never do that. Has your dog ever had surgery, and if so have you watched it?


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## Celtic Wolf

*Vets*

You MUST stay with your dog at all times,
You are his or her protector.


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## Syaoransbear

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Watch the surgery? Oh, I could never do that. Has your dog ever had surgery, and if so have you watched it?


The only surgery he's had is getting neutered, but I had to work so my fiance dropped him off and picked him up later. I don't think he stuck around to watch Chrono get neutered, it's probably not the type of a thing a guy would want to see .


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## Bridget

I voted yes, but that only refers to our vet, not just any vet. I trust my vet implicitly and he is the only medical person I've ever trusted!


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## Lauri & The Gang

My first vet allowed me to do everything - once he realized I knew how to handle things. I helped with Neke's c-section and I was there when he did the necropsy on my first Cocker Spaniel. I have donned the lead apron to help with xrays and held puppies while they had dew claws removed. I held Winnie in a death grip when they had to flush her blown anal gland and have been present for every euthanizing.

My current vet allows me in back (the surgical area) to help position a dog on the xray table but I have to step out when they take the picture (fine with me). I doubt he would allow me to watch a surgical procedure but I feel comfortable with them taking the dog for that.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Syaoransbear said:


> The only surgery he's had is getting neutered, but I had to work so my fiance dropped him off and picked him up later. I don't think he stuck around to watch Chrono get neutered, it's probably not the type of a thing a guy would want to see .


I don't imagine he would, he'd probably be traumatized forever!


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## chelle

I've never had a vet that had to take any dog into a back room to do anything. (Except when my middle dog had parvo... different story there.)

My current vet is awesome! They seem to like to have me in the room. There's usually the vet and a tech, but we've sometimes had shots, etc with just me and the vet. I always ask what they would like me to do. Truth is, I can keep any of my dogs calmer than they can. I don't freak out or get nervous, it's just something we have to deal with and get through. 

Mr Bails was pretty thrilled with getting his anal glands emptied out.  NOT!!!!!!! But, I'm still glad I was right there for the process. I was at his face, the tech had her arm around his trunk.. and the vet was.. well, you know where he was. The tech said, "um... you might not want to get your face so close to his when he (the vet) goes in." I didn't care, let Bails bite me, I thought. He was scared and uncomfortable and I do really think that me being right there at his face, talking to him, made it better for him. He didn't attempt to bite anyone, just wiggled. 

I wouldn't accept my dog being taken to a back room for anything short of surgery.


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## Holmeshx2

We just recently started with a new vet but have been there more then I care to. There are 5 vets there in total and we've been to 2 different ones so far. Both have been really great with Jinx take time to get on the ground and play with her and build a relationship which puts me at ease. For the most part I have been allowed to be there for everything I was allowed to hold her to have her stiches removed however there was an issue and they had to take her back to the surgical area to scrub it good because she had a reaction to the internal stitches but they tried to do whatever they could in the room with me before taking her and even apologized for having to take her away but they were really good with her and even asked me about her training and tried using the same commands and following it so they didn't screw anything up which was a big point in my book. The second vet had to take her into a back area because he needed more room to look at her then the normal exam room but he allowed me to come back with her but stand in the doorway and had a tech hold her because it was in a room with other dogs being treated. So yes for the most part my vet allows me to be there and is already starting to show trust in me for certain things so that shows me whats to come the longer I go to them. I'm not completely against a vet doing things without me there however I am NOT ok with offices that don't let you there for anything I went to one that has signs up where you stay out at the receptionist desk and they take your dog back where you cant see or hear your dog and thats NOT ok in my book.


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## SaberCt

Being military, I can fully understand the reasoning for not wanting someone looming over your work, questioning everything that's being done, when you're the expert, and they are clueless.

However, if you can prove to be quiet and not bother the techs while they're working, there should be no reason to not allow a silent observer. And if a vet turned me away from watching quietly and without intruding, I would throw up flags. Sanitary reasons? I can wash up, wear booties, whatever. There should be no reason to turn someone away if they can follow the rules.


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## CookieTN

We used a different vet for the shots/checkup this year. Both the regular vet and this one let us stay with our dog.
The regular vet would sometimes send us to the next room during some procedures, saying that the dog sometimes get more nervous if his owner is there or something. Usually for things that only take a minute. They did that with Cookie a lot, since she always seemed more afraid of the vet. But we were allowed to be there otherwise.


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## Lin

SaberCt said:


> Being military, I can fully understand the reasoning for not wanting someone looming over your work, questioning everything that's being done, when you're the expert, and they are clueless.
> 
> However, if you can prove to be quiet and not bother the techs while they're working, there should be no reason to not allow a silent observer. And if a vet turned me away from watching quietly and without intruding, I would throw up flags. Sanitary reasons? I can wash up, wear booties, whatever. There should be no reason to turn someone away if they can follow the rules.


I would say in the medical profession, having the patient (or parent) "looming" over your job and questioning everything is part of that job. If you don't like it, go into research. 

I would not expect looming or questioning to be tolerated in the military. 

I have health issues, I have to see multiple specialists and have for years. I will not go back to a Dr who is not willing to speak to me as an equal and answer any questions I have, and allow my input when it comes to testing or treatment. I believe a proper Dr to human or Vet to pet parent relationship is a partnership. No one knows your dog better than you, or what you're feeling better than you. Its not a one sided equation.


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## Draugr

I would never tolerate this from a vet, short of anything other than surgery, and I'd want to be there while my dog is being sedated.

I just need to be there. I'm not going to sit there and second-guess him at every turn but our pets don't have voices, we have to be their advocate.

Unless I've built up a VERY good relationship with a vet, and he's been treating my animals for years...no, I would not allow anyone to take my dog in the back away from me and treat him without my presence. That said with my current vet and my past two vets it was never an issue. I actually had to suggest to my current vet that I leave the room when they were trying to poke him for a blood draw, I thought it might help. It did not and I returned to help restrain him. That was a semi-urgent thing and I almost wish I would not have done it. Bad first memory for him, we are still working with re-socializing him with that clinic. They are good though, I plan to keep going.


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## Kayos and Havoc

He better or I will be going elsewhere.


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## Holmeshx2

SaberCt said:


> Being military, I can fully understand the reasoning for not wanting someone looming over your work, questioning everything that's being done, when you're the expert, and they are clueless.
> 
> However, if you can prove to be quiet and not bother the techs while they're working, there should be no reason to not allow a silent observer. And if a vet turned me away from watching quietly and without intruding, I would throw up flags. Sanitary reasons? I can wash up, wear booties, whatever. There should be no reason to turn someone away if they can follow the rules.


Now this is more of a personal thing and attitude not military. I am military and unfortunately sometimes the human doctors get this attitude and sometimes you have to bring them back down to earth and get rid of the god complex some of them get. Not EVERYONE is clueless just because they aren't an expert. I for one have a pretty decent grasp on my health and have to force them to listen to me when they are trying to dismiss simple symptoms when I KNOW they are not normal for me. The vets on post allow us to come back with the dogs to be treated and actually won't even take the dogs leash you hold them the entire time.

The vet I use off post has been really good but sometimes dismiss small things that I KNOW are not normal for Jinx. Like now I called because she's not eating normal she's still eating her normal amount (minus a few ounces) so they think it's fine however she's not eating normal she is so food driven she is normally jumping and squeeking while she eats constantly begging for food throughout the day and goes balistic over her food. Now she doesn't want to take her vitamins doesn't realy care to eat but she will but it takes her a lot longer I have to leave it down for like an hour before she goes and eats it and have to give her nupro and ACV first because otherwise she wont touch it. NOT normal for her so definitely a symptom of something and while not normally diagnostic but her nose is dry and rough which has never happened with her and it has been for days so while shes still eating and drinking and going to the bathroom shes not doing her normal routing so from a diagnostic stand point she seems fine but from a "non expert clueless person" I know my dog and know her symptoms.

And just to show again that sometimes the "clueless owners" can sometimes be of great benefit to the god like "experts" the old vet we went to was so caught up in the fact Jinx wasn't fixed that he ignored her symptoms. I went in and told them I was sure she had a UTI (she had EVERY symptoms including the sudden accidents in the house and frequent small bathroom breaks) After the urinalysis he told me he was worried about pyometra because she wasn't fixed and he wanted to get her spayed when I said no he got mad and fought with me about breeding when I clearly stated I wasn't breeding her just wasn't fixing her yet. I specifically asked him if the u/a showed a UTI and he flat out told me no and kept lecturing about fixing her. When I get done I'm out front talking to the vet tech and asked about the antibiotic and she said it was for a UTI so I asked her if she had it and was told yes she had a UTI asked for all the numbers from the u/a and double checked the numbers and yes she had it but the "expert" said no because he was too busy focusing on something irrelevent at that moment so yes while I believe there is a time to shut up and let them do their job theres also a time to step up and be a voice for your pet and their well being!! Remember no one knows ur pet like you do but don't rely on that also make sure you research and learn the basics so you aren't clueless when you step into the exam room.


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## selzer

From a breeder perspective, I need to know as much as possible about the health of my dogs. I need to ask the questions about this or that. Sometimes I do not remember the questions until we are back there with the dog. I cannot imagine handing the dog off to a tech and letting the mystery vet look and do for him and then have the tech return him to me. 

As for being the great unwashed, I think there are many breeders whose advice I would follow in lieu of a vet. The vet's knowledge base is vast and spans many creatures from fish to birds to livestock to rodents to reptiles to dogs and cats. And then the many different breeds of dogs, breeders have to be experts on their own breeds and what those breeds common problems are. I will tell a puppy buyer to go to the vet, yes. But I will also tell them to ask them about specific possibilities. 

You don't get that knowledge from sitting in the waiting room and waiting for your dog to be returned to you. When my dog is under the knife, I want nothing to interfere with the vet doing their job, though if they have the facilities to let me watch through a window, I am there. For everything else, I pretty much want to know. I have helped with x-rays, but I do not need to be in there every single time I have a dog go back for them. 

I guess if I am back there just to keep my mouth shut and observe, I am really portraying that I do not trust my vet with my dog, and that is not the case. I am there mostly to learn, and yes, I will ask questions or provide answers to their questions when I am back there. I want to see what they are seeing, and why it is or is not a concern. And, I am there to lend a hand if necessary, though it really should not be necessary most of the time. And I am there if being there is helpful to my dog. 

I can see that go both ways. If I am cringing and worried, my dog will pick up on it. If I can remain calm and reassured, my dog will more likely benefit from my being there, and I want to be there. 

If my dog is awake, scared, in pain, I will be what he needs for me to be for him, and I will be there for him. That is my job.


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## Lin

Lin said:


> I would not expect looming or questioning to be tolerated in the military.


I changed my mind somewhat since writing that. While I still would not expect it to be tolerated, I think it SHOULD be. 

I'm reading a book right now called Everyday Survival: Why Smart People do Stupid Things. The basis of the book is how people get trapped by mental models, and when the brain sort of goes on autopilot like when you find yourself in the driveway but don't remember driving home. Many horrible catastrophies happened because of people being afraid to continue to learn, or thinking they knew everything. Failures of major businesses (like Xerox trying to get into computers) because they thought they had the perfect plan, and refused to hear from those who were new. The companies that do the best are those that aren't afraid to get the opinions of those right out of school. These are the people that refuse to say "its impossible" due to experience but rather try to figure out a way to make something work. Another example in the book was a chief fireman who set an alarm on his watch to go off every 45 minutes, and every time it went off he would completely re-asses the situation to see what had changed and if the plan needed changing now as well. 

Questioning helps educate others, as Selzer pointed out. Questioning also helps educate those who are answering.


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## SaberCt

Holmeshx2 said:


> Now this is more of a personal thing and attitude not military. I am military and unfortunately sometimes the human doctors get this attitude and sometimes you have to bring them back down to earth and get rid of the god complex some of them get. Not EVERYONE is clueless just because they aren't an expert. I for one have a pretty decent grasp on my health and have to force them to listen to me when they are trying to dismiss simple symptoms when I KNOW they are not normal for me. The vets on post allow us to come back with the dogs to be treated and actually won't even take the dogs leash you hold them the entire time.





Lin said:


> I changed my mind somewhat since writing that. While I still would not expect it to be tolerated, I think it SHOULD be.


I feel I should clarify my stance. 

Looming and questioning is usually only done when there's a learning environment. Then it's absolutely encouraged. I come from an aircraft mechanic career field. I'm only a specialist on one system (weapons delivery), out of, say, 15 kinds of mechanics. Generally, we look out, and ask the obvious kinds of questions when appropriate, like "Hey, is that thing supposed to be leaking oil everywhere?" but we're not out to learn every little detail of what everyone else is doing. That's not our jobs. 

However, there are times where you'll have someone who's jumping in and asking questions when it's not appropriate. Or worse, someone visiting who's only knowledge about airplanes are "they fly". Everyone's gonna be different. But if I'm trying to reconnect tiny, delicate wires, or in the middle of lifting a 100+lb object with one or two other guys, the last thing I (or anyone) is wanting to do is entertain questions from someone not in my specialty, who does not need to be any part of the current situation.

Generally, having done computer repairs on the civilian side of life as well, the average people tend to lean on the latter half of my above example. If I were a vet, I wouldn't mind teaching/educating an owner at the appropriate times...

...But given there's a lot of people in the world who belong in the Stories forum threads... you know, the people in the world who go "YOUR DOG IS NOT A PUREBRED GSD" or "YOUR DOG IS HALF WOLF" or "MY LITTLE SNOOKUMS WOULD NEVER HURT A FLY" as he's sunk into your pants leg with his teeth... Those are the kind of clueless people I would get fed up with real quick, looming over and questioning me at every step. And who I wouldn't want around when I'm trying to do simple treatments. (WHY ARE YOU STICKING THAT THERMOMETER UP HIS BUM??)


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## Wolfgeist

I work at an Animal Hospital as an Animal Care technician and I am well aware of what goes on in the treatment area of a clinic.

That being said, I demand to be present for all treatments performed on Hunter - if they don't like it I will gladly find someone who will.  I don't trust anyone, and it is my dog, my money, my right to decide.


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## BlackGSD

I agree with Wild Wolf.

It is MY dog and MY money. I have never had a vet even try to take any dog of mine into another room. I am also allowed to restrain my own dogs, even through there is a big sign that asks you to allow them tech to do it. My vet knows me, I tend to have dogs that do NOT take kindly to being poked and prodded by strangers, but not once have they even come close to being bitten. I know how to hold them. My vet KNOWS I won't let him be bitten, he also knows that my dogs will NOT let a tech to restrain them. I've never been asked to muzzle a dog of mine either.

If a vet ever tried to take any dog of mine into another room for anything short of surgery, I would go elsewhere. 

And while I may not have a D.V.M after my name I am FAR from being "clueless". Probably the reason I often don't even have to take my animals ?(dogs, cats, horses, cattle.) in to be seen, I can just call and go pick up the meds they need.


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## sharkey19

BlackGSD said:


> I agree with Wild Wolf.
> 
> It is MY dog and MY money. I have never had a vet even try to take any dog of mine into another room. I am also allowed to restrain my own dogs, even through there is a big sign that asks you to allow them tech to do it. My vet knows me, I tend to have dogs that do NOT take kindly to being poked and prodded by strangers, but not once have they even come close to being bitten. I know how to hold them. My vet KNOWS I won't let him be bitten, he also knows that my dogs will NOT let a tech to restrain them. I've never been asked to muzzle a dog of mine either.


That is good that you can restrain your dogs. A lot of people think they can, and then end up losing control. I know one owner we had come in was holding her dog as we were taking blood. The dog snapped at the vet and nearly got her. She asked the owner to muzzle the dog after that, and the owner was offended because the dog didn't bite her, but "the dog's teeth merely grazed her hand.."


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## BlackGSD

I have had to keep others from being bitten, kicked, out just plain old killed by horses for a lot of years. And I'm not talking about nice quiet trail horses either. I'm talking about "souped up" young race horses. I've never had a vet, farrier, or anyone else injured by a horse I was handling either. But I take it (handling/restraining) VERY seriously. I don't get complacent, and I pay attention! 


But I personally am selective on who I allow to handle an animal I am working on. I totally get why it is generally best to have a tech do it. Most owners don't have the experience I do.


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## selzer

A vet has to be in part a teacher. Every owner starts somewhere. If the owner doesn't know that the thermometer goes in the bum, then asking the vet that question is ok. While the vet is taking your dog's temperature, (usually that would be a tech), they are not performing brain surgery, and even stupid questions should be entertained. Sorry. When they ARE performing surgery, people need to stand back and let them do their job. 

A vet that works with a team doing c-sections, knows that her techs know what to do with the pups. They may not have as much confidence in the breeder and will probably delegate a senior vet tech to keep an eye on and answer questions by the breeder/owner so that they can do their part. The only one I watched, they knew how many pups were in there, and had enough techs available. If the bitch has 14 puppies, it will take all hands on deck and then some. 

The biggest problem with veterinary care is probably the fact that people are too afraid to ask questions about things because they are afraid they are stupid questions. Ask, ask, ask. This dog is your responsibility. Your information, and your questions may help the vet know what is going on with your dog. Your questions let the vet know where you are, and remind them what things they ought to explain to you. 

If I was a vet and had an owner that said little to nothing while the dog is being examined, it would probably give me the willies. People love their pets. They love to talk about their pets. They want to understand their pets. And they want to know what is going on and why. So, that's how you take their temperature, well, that makes sense, cool -- nothing wrong with that, they never thought about that before.


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## Holmeshx2

agree with Selzer on this one. I just had this yesterday I know a decent amount but Jinx hasn't really been as interested in food as she normally is. I know it can be from pain but I still double checked with the vet to get their perspective on it. The only truly stupid question is the one thats not asked. You might not ask something you feel is stupid but would be the little key they need to figure something out. Biggest thing is for people to learn their dogs and not just "assume" Even though I am new at this vet she has learned I'm fairly competant and engages in conversation with me weighing out different scenarios she backs the vet techs off to have me hold Jinx she knows Jinx is more comfortable on the ground so for more invasive checks that are going to probably cause pain she does it on the ground to make it easier on her. I know Jinx and that at the vet she will not walk normal she tries to drag them down the hallway so you can not see how she is truly walking and since she had a limp I made sure that morning while she was calmly walking in the yard to try and get a fairly good video of her walking and standing still making sure to show her feet all the way up to the hips and top of her back in the video and did a good minute or so from different angles so the vet could see it and she was absolutely thrilled I took the time to do it and gladly took the camera then proceeded to do the physical exam. Does it seem weird taking a camera to the vet of course but if they can't see the problem they can't really know 100% whats going on by your description and dogs are notorious for hiding their symptoms at the vet (so do kids lol) they are dieing at home and perfectly healthy at the docs.


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## gsdsar

Okay- I am a little late to this party but am going to jump in.

I have been a Vet Tech for longer than I haven't. I currently work in an amazing practice. Owner are expected to be present in the exam room for the emanination of the pet, the nail trims the vaccinations, everything. The Dr want to talk to the owners, listen to them and make sure that the pet is getting the best care possible.

That said, owners are NOT allowed to restrain their own animals unless they are muzzled. Period, the end. Why, you ask, all aghast. Because the HOSPITAL is legally responsible if your loving poochie wooms bites YOU while in my hospital. That means that we have to pay ALL of your medical bills. It is not a risk I am willing to take. I cant afford to lose MY job because because your dog "would never bite me" bites you. 

Aside from that there are many reason we dont not normally allow owners to accompany their pets in to our back treatment area. Again it is liability, if you slip and fall, or trip, or put your nosey fingers in a cage you should not, then again, we are responsible. Our insurance will not allow us to take that risk.

Do we make the exception, yup. On occasion.

Would we allow you into our surgery suite while a surgery was taking place. NO.
Would we allow you to assist in any way shape or form in taking a radiograph, **** NO. We dont have a tag for you, radiation is dangerous and it is HIGHLY illegal at the federal level to have a non tagged non employee in our X-ray suite.

I dont mean to be rude and sound mean, I really dont. But having dealt with it for years it is frustarting to me as a Vet Tech. You either trust us to be kind and compassionate with your animal while in your presence or away from it, or you dont. if you dont, find another Vet. I am not going to kick your dog in the face the second you are out of eyesight. i am not going to mahandle your scared poochie because you cant see me. And if you think I will, then I dont want to deal with you. You insult me and the entire team. Plain and simple.

Okay off my soap box. We do have clients that are allowed to do more than others. We do actually the Police to handle their own K9, we have sedated animals with their owners present and them moved them to the back for further treatment. We have our big Xray viewer in the back and sometimes clients are brought back to see films.

I apppreciate clients that are informed owners, we like people to ask questions and bring research and become a solid part of the dog welfare and medical treatment plan. But there come a time when it crosses a line . By this I mean, again, either you trust the Doctor and the staff, or you dont. if a Doctor is saying one thing, but "you read on the internet" something else and you dont want to follow the Drs treatment plan, then you obviously dont trust the medical opinion of your Vet and should find another one. Sorry that soapbox was so close I had to get up again.

Please dont assume that people that work at Vets are there to hurt your dog, we would not be in this profession is that was what we wanted to do. Talk to the staff, get to know them. And if there is a Tech or Dr you like, request them to hel with your pets. If something happens you dont like, step up and say so, that way we can explain or the matter can be addressed. I personally get requested by the Docs to help hold the GSD's (wonder why?), I get them, they dont scare me and I dont try to grapple them (they are a less is more breed when it comes to restraining), but i also know when they are about to lose it and can warn the doc. I know the difference between GSD talk and GSD 'i am going to kill you'. So as an owner, search that person out at the office, the one they dog gravitates to, that you see handles them well, use the Dr that the dog likes, dont be afraid to speak your mind. but let me do MY job so that your pet can go home and be healthier and happier and I dont have to send you to urgent care to get your hand stitched.
)


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## Stella's Mom

I would not expect to be present for a surgical procedure, just routine care.

My girl had her blood drawn this week. I told the vet tech, big muscular guy, ok you hold her and I will stand in front of her and give her treats. Easy breezy. The team at my vets office has been in place for many years and I am very comfortable with them.

They have been treating my cats and my old girl Rio before I got Stella.


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## selzer

gsdsar said:


> Please dont assume that people that work at Vets are there to hurt your dog, we would not be in this profession is that was what we wanted to do. Talk to the staff, get to know them. And if there is a Tech or Dr you like, request them to hel with your pets. If something happens you dont like, step up and say so, that way we can explain or the matter can be addressed. I personally get requested by the Docs to help hold the GSD's (wonder why?), I get them, they dont scare me and I dont try to grapple them (they are a less is more breed when it comes to restraining), but i also know when they are about to lose it and can warn the doc. I know the difference between GSD talk and GSD 'i am going to kill you'. So as an owner, search that person out at the office, the one they dog gravitates to, that you see handles them well, use the Dr that the dog likes, dont be afraid to speak your mind. but let me do MY job so that your pet can go home and be healthier and happier and I dont have to send you to urgent care to get your hand stitched.
> )


I hear what you are saying, but, I do not have a radiation badge and I have assisted with x-rays. However, normally, even if I help position the dog on the table, I leave the room before they take the films, normally. 

People should not argue with the vet. 4-6 years of education kind of trumps 1 or more hours of "research" on the internet. But, if I talk to long-time breeders and they suggest this or that, I am going to bring it up and listen to what the vet has to say about it, and then make a choice depending on which sounds more reasonable.

It is all well and good to just blindly trust your vet. I have been going to my vet for nearly 30 years now, and I do trust them. I trust them not to deliberately hurt my dogs. I trust them to give their honest opinion. I have euthanized a dog and not euthanized a dog on their recommendation as to what they would do for their dog. However, like in any profession there are those that graduated in the lower half of their class, those who do not keep up with current advances, those that are out there to get your money and will be unethical in that area. Sometimes the best thing is NOT to do surgery, but they do surgery anyway. And not everyone has been using their vet for 30 years. Sometimes you have to go with a new vet, and then how can you just trust them? You do not KNOW whether this vet is excellent, or a scoundrel, or just less up to date, or less intelligent than other vets. 

Vets have different opinions on RAW feeding for example. How many people come on here and say what there vet says and everyone roundly abuses the vet. I think that many very good vets in other ways, may have a negative opinion about RAW feeding, and that tarnishes them in the eyes of some of those who feed RAW. 

They took a number of shelter dogs with minor problems, diagnosed by a vet, and took each dog to something like 13 vets. The vets diagnosed the dogs with a variety of different things and price tags in some cases into the thousands. What's up with that? 
But we should simply blindly trust or go elsewhere? Again, if you have history with your vet it is different, but a new vet? They have to earn the trust.


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## selzer

Rushie broke his toenail way up at the base. It was hanging at a 90 degree angle. I took him to the vet. I held him with several other vet techs holding him while another cut it off. He was not muzzled. It was painful. Then they had to stuff it with something that burned. I continued to hold him. 

That was so scary and painful the dog should have been put under. He could have bitten, but he did not. 

I have asked them to muzzle some of my dogs when they do certain things. I want the dog to be safe and not to have to bite someone. So I have seen it both ways. I usually prefer the vet tech to hold the dog. The vet speaks their language, and if the vet says move up or move down, I am not worrying about what they want me to do. I do prefer to be there whenever possible. But I also feel perfectly confident passing my dog over, that the dog will not be so stressed out that they will spazz.


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## gsdsar

selzer said:


> I hear what you are saying, but, I do not have a radiation badge and I have assisted with x-rays. However, normally, even if I help position the dog on the table, I leave the room before they take the films, normally.


Thats fine. If you leave the room. I cant legally have you in there without a badge. And with some dogs it may be helpful to have the owner get them on their side or their back.



selzer said:


> People should not argue with the vet. 4-6 years of education kind of trumps 1 or more hours of "research" on the internet. But, if I talk to long-time breeders and they suggest this or that, I am going to bring it up and listen to what the vet has to say about it, and then make a choice depending on which sounds more reasonable.
> 
> It is all well and good to just blindly trust your vet. I have been going to my vet for nearly 30 years now, and I do trust them. I trust them not to deliberately hurt my dogs. I trust them to give their honest opinion. I have euthanized a dog and not euthanized a dog on their recommendation as to what they would do for their dog. However, like in any profession there are those that graduated in the lower half of their class, those who do not keep up with current advances, those that are out there to get your money and will be unethical in that area. Sometimes the best thing is NOT to do surgery, but they do surgery anyway. And not everyone has been using their vet for 30 years. Sometimes you have to go with a new vet, and then how can you just trust them? You do not KNOW whether this vet is excellent, or a scoundrel, or just less up to date, or less intelligent than other vets.


I agree with this. It is up to the owner to create a rapore with the doctor and the staff and hopefully they will stay with the same Vet for a long time. I dont expect people to give blind trust. Not everyone is wonderful. but the vast mnajority of Vets are not in it for the money. trust me, I know what Vets make. And is no where near what you think. They do it for the love. But if you have good reason to think the Vet has less than good intention, take your dog elsewhere.

My issue is more with owners who refuse to listen to the Dr. Who have "talked to a lot of breeders, or read on the internet and self diagnosed". or who do not trust the staff to handle the dog. I personnnly feel insulted when someone implies that I am going to hurt their animal, or that I dont know how to handle their dog. Not only that, but when an owner comes in and TELLS the vet what kind of sedative or anesthesia to use because" their breeder told them". Thats what gets my goat. Unless their breeder is a Vet..... However, if your breeder tells you that 4 out of 5 of the pups littermates or their parent had a sever reaction to a certain drug, that IS notable and should be considered. Same with vaccine reactions.


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## sharkey19

gsdsar said:


> I agree with this. It is up to the owner to create a rapore with the doctor and the staff and hopefully they will stay with the same Vet for a long time. I dont expect people to give blind trust. Not everyone is wonderful. but the vast mnajority of Vets are not in it for the money. trust me, I know what Vets make. And is no where near what you think. They do it for the love. But if you have good reason to think the Vet has less than good intention, take your dog elsewhere.
> 
> My issue is more with owners who refuse to listen to the Dr. Who have "talked to a lot of breeders, or read on the internet and self diagnosed". or who do not trust the staff to handle the dog. I personnnly feel insulted when someone implies that I am going to hurt their animal, or that I dont know how to handle their dog. Not only that, but when an owner comes in and TELLS the vet what kind of sedative or anesthesia to use because" their breeder told them". Thats what gets my goat. Unless their breeder is a Vet..... However, if your breeder tells you that 4 out of 5 of the pups littermates or their parent had a sever reaction to a certain drug, that IS notable and should be considered. Same with vaccine reactions.


Yes!!! :thumbup:


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## Lin

I think you should argue with your vet  respectfully of course. But I think questions or disagreeing makes us a better owner, and the vet a better vet. 

A close friend just lost her cat because 2 local vets misdiagnosed him. She knew something was wrong, but when she went to the local vet they told her he had injured his leg and would be fine. He got worse so she went back, was told again his leg was injured and to go home. So she waited a few more days, before going to another vet out of town. Her cat was then immediately put on IV and had a feeding tube inserted. He died a few days later from pancreatitis. She can't stop thinking 'what if I had argued more, or gone to the other vet sooner. Would Rocky still be here?'

And I can't say I haven't had the same thoughts. My cat Piper nearly died and was misdiagnosed by the vets. I switched vets and she got better. I've also had to go back to the ER vet over a weekend because the first time Tessa was misdiagnosed. 

When Tessa's KCS started a vet told me she had entropion and needed immediate surgery to prevent damage to her eyes. I asked couldn't something else be going on and the inflammation causing entropion? I would told no, while the vet stood there with a smug look on his face. I had been staying with my dad, and I drove over 2 hours to go see MY vet who told me she had KCS and the inflammation was mimicking entropion. I exclaimed out loud "THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!"

I also wonder if I had pushed when Logan first got sick if he would still be around now. I kept taking him to the vet but most of the tests were normal, and they weren't concerned with blood levels that weren't.... I knew something was wrong but really trusted that vet (the one who later correctly diagnosed Tessa's KCS) and backed off. Then Logan ends up at deaths door in the ICU at Purdue for a week, and dies 9 months later. If I had argued, pushed, if Logan had been correctly diagnosed before he got so sick he nearly died.. Maybe I would have had more time with him.

You have to be your pets advocate, and your own advocate in medicine. It really doesn't matter how much you trust your vet, they aren't infallible. Our pets can't speak for themselves, but WE can say whats normal or not normal in them or ourselves. I've definitely had to be my own advocate in medicine to get the correct diagnoses.


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## selzer

We know our dogs better than the vet. And I do take my dogs to the vet's when they are well to hop on the scale or get pets and treats from the vet techs. But, we know when something is just not right. 

We are our dog's advocate. 

Here is a scenario. A breeder friend of mine was having terrible luck with any of her bitches getting pregnant by AI. She had the sperm tested every time. Then she noticed that the vet was using KY to lubricate the tube. KY is actually a spermicide. So, yes, when my vet did an AI, you bet I asked her if she was using a non-spermicidal lubricant. There is nothing wrong with people being informed and asking questions. Not everyone is going to think about the spermicidal properties of KY. 

Another story. The vaccination for Coccidia I think. Vets were pushing it back when it first came out. This is something that if the pup gets it, it is easily treatable, not like parvo or distemper. Well, my friend, had heard something from one of her lists that the vaccination was cause problems of some sort, and when the vet suggested doing the vaccination, she told him she would wait until it had been around longer as she had heard this stuff about it. Her vet respected her, and moths later he told her that she was right about it. 

Vets have to be up on all systems, many species, many breeds. A breeder has to be up on reproduction, puppies, and their breed's common issues. They have a network of friends also with a lot of experience, and sometimes they may be more up to date than the vet. 50 years of experience in the breed, breeding, etc, might trump 4-6 years of education + experience in overall veterinary medicine. lnformation about behavior, breeding, nutrition, and a host of other things, it just makes sense to ask her first about things. If you breed long enough, chances are you are going to see an awful lot. 

Uhm, I think maybe I am OT.


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## BlackGSD

GSDSAR,

I trust my VET. Some of the other folks that work there, not so much. Some of then have absolutely NO "dog sense". Some of the things I have seen them do just defy the imagination. I can only imagine what kinds of stupid things they do /have done that I haven't seen!


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## gsdsar

I think there have been a lot of good points made and I agree with a lot of them. We are our dogs advocate and I have heard the vet say many times " I cant find anything wrong, but you obviously know him better than I so lets keep looking". We know when our pets are not right and it is up to us to make sure the vet undertstands that.

Do I think having years of experience breeding, raising and training, makes us a lot more knowledgeable than the average dog owner. In some cases yes. But it can also makes us think we know more than we do. I have seen many breeder packets come in with puppies stating guidlines for vaccinations, which one to get and not get, which anesthesia should be used, which food must be fed to keep the guarantee valid, how old the dog should be before spay/neuter, all sorts of things that she not be decided by the breeder but by the owner with advice from the breeder and the Vet. It is up to us to make ourselves informed. I dont think Drs are infallible, I believe that open communication between an owner and staff is very important.

But being a knowledgable owner does NOT mean that my insurance will cover you if you get bitten or hurt yourself while in my treatment area, and thats what this original thread was about. That and trusting the staff with your animal when you are out of sight. i stand by what I said, if you dont trust the staff with your dog, get a new Vet.

I also highly recommend that if you see a staff member behaving inappropriatly towards a dog, or handling a dog in a way that is against your beliefs on how a dog should be handled, then you need to step up and say something. if a Vet does not see it happen, they need to know if someone on their staff is mishandling an animal. I do ask that owners understand that I am not there to train your dog. I dont have the time to "click and reward" to get blood drawn. Somethings a dog is going to have to deal with, and I make danged sure that I handle the dog in a respectful manner and carefully so I dont get bitten. If your nervous nellie GSD is freaking out and fighting and panicing and you are in their face petting them and rubbing their ears and telling them "its okay" "good boy" you can be dang sure that I am going to tell you in no uncertain terms to "stop touching the dog and back up" because its NOT ok and I dont feel like getting bit. My favorite owners are the ones that come in and tell me up front, "my dog is a jerk for needles, he needs a muzzle", or "he is better if I am out of the room", and " you be the bad guy and hold him for his anal gland expression" Of course those are few and far between, usually we get the "oh he had a really bad experience at a vet I used to go to and now he hates all vets" really???? If one bad experience made a dog hate something that much, then why the heck does my dog STILL get in the trash??? Trust me, he has some BAD experiences with mom when caught doing that.


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## selzer

Once upon a time, I was taking my parents' dog to the vet, and one of the techs said, "oh wow, he's bigger than your dogs." I said, "yeah, we neutered him too early." I neutered him at that vet clinic and the vet was right there in the room. The tech gave me an odd look. 

I told her that if you neuter before the growth plates are closed, the long bones can continue to grow longer than they would have otherwise. She gave me another disbelieving expression and turned to the vet. The vet said, "yes, that can happen."

My vet will alter pups at 14 - 18 weeks old. As a breeder, I know that that can cause the dog to grow differently, to not get there secondary sex characteristics. Bitch stripes are more likely in the males. And there is higher risks for a variety of cancers when altering is done early. So why should a breeder NOT encourage her people to put off spay/neuter? Why should they NOT encourage a diet that seems to work for their dogs? There are hundreds of dog foods out there as well as home-made and RAW diets. Unless the vet is a GSD owner of similar lines to yours, the chances are, they may have more trouble finding a food that works for your dog. 

You seem to be hung up on anesthetic. Well, there are certain anesthetics that should not be used for c-sections. One would hope that vets would be up to date on that stuff. One would think. Some of the breeders who have been around for a while, may have had bad experiences. At that point, they do not like to take that stuff for granted. 

And it is not all dollars and cents. We have raised these dogs and love these dogs. 

I will go one farther. When my sister delivered her child at 26 weeks along, she could have simply believed that the NICU doctors and staff had more education, more training, more experience than she did. But because she made it her business to learn everything she could in a very short time, she saved that baby's life for sure two times already while she was in their care. That child is at home today. I do not think she would be if my sister did not question things that were going on with her, stuff they were giving her, and if she just trusted that baby into their care.

When my parents were raised, they would NEVER question a doctor or a teacher. The mindset was very much, they have education, they know, we do not know. We need to do what they say. And pretty much blind obedience is what they gave.

I will never think that is healthy. So I am the nightmare client that will ask stupid questions and question many things.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Sue, I agree with everything that you said. Remember when the swine flu was going around the year before last? My son was one of the first children in my area to get it. Well, when he got sick-the next day my daughter became ill. I took them both to their pediatrician. He did the swab test and sent it to the lab for both of my children. 

The results came back, negative for my son and positive for my daughter, so my daughter was given Tamiflu and not my son! They had the identical symptoms! Well, what could I do-Tamiflu is only available through prescription. Two days later my daughter is feeling much better-and my son is so sick that he can barely walk! I took my son to the ER and they rushed him back and swabbed him again. This time they ran the test and said that he was positive but that it was too late for the Tamiflu to help. They gave him an antibiotic because he had developed secondary infections and what's more now I was getting sick.

I called his pediatrician and let him know that he had screwed up royally. When they had initially gave me the results of the test I had plead with them to give him the Tamiflu because I knew that they had the same thing. Anyhow, the pediatrician felt awful and had me come to his office and gave me Tamiflu for my son, and for me-free of charge. But I learned a lesson. Always question the doctor and if you don't agree with what he says-see another doctor.

Any doctor can make an error-tests aren't foolproof-common sense should prevail.


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## gsdsar

selzer said:


> My vet will alter pups at 14 - 18 weeks old. As a breeder, I know that that can cause the dog to grow differently, to not get there secondary sex characteristics. Bitch stripes are more likely in the males. And there is higher risks for a variety of cancers when altering is done early. So why should a breeder NOT encourage her people to put off spay/neuter? Why should they NOT encourage a diet that seems to work for their dogs? There are hundreds of dog foods out there as well as home-made and RAW diets. Unless the vet is a GSD owner of similar lines to yours, the chances are, they may have more trouble finding a food that works for your dog.


While I am NOT a fan of neutering early (My male and female GSD at 3 and my lab at 18 mo) I cant see the reasons you gave as reasons not to neuter, save the cancer and there has been 1 study done, peer reviewed and published that gave an insignifigantly greater chance of Prostate cancer in neutered dogs. Secondary sex characteristics and a bitch stripe are cosmetic and have zero detriment to the health of the dog or its ability to be a good and healthy pet. Plenty of studies have been done, peer reviewed and published that have proven that sterilized animals live longer, healthier lives.

As for the diet, I agree. There are a lot of diets out there, and done right and fed correctly are beneficial to the dog. But the breeder should NOT get to make the choice as to what I feed my dog. If I choose to feed ProPlan, then my warranty should not be void.



selzer said:


> You seem to be hung up on anesthetic. Well, there are certain anesthetics that should not be used for c-sections. One would hope that vets would be up to date on that stuff. One would think. Some of the breeders who have been around for a while, may have had bad experiences. At that point, they do not like to take that stuff for granted.


I am not hung up on anesthestic. It just happens to be one of things that is borught up often by owners and breeders in a way that to me is ridiculous. If a breeder/owner has had a bad experience with a certian protocol, then I would hope they would share that with their Vet and the two can make an informed decision. Together as a team. The issue I have is when an owner TELLS the vet what kind of anesthesia to use, or what antibiotic they want to use, or treatment course to follow. Anesthesia is a bit of an art. Vets use what they know and are comfortable with and know what to expect. If you demand that a Dr use a protocol that they are not as familiar with you run the risk of a Vet not catching things when they should. If you want a certain protocol to be used and your Vet does not routinely use that, find someone who does and is comfortable with it.

Along the same lines, a quick story. A woman called a clinic a worked at freaking out because her dog had eaten some chocolate. Prior to calling me she had called her breeder and the breeder told her to make the dog vomit and rush it to the Vet. Before coming to us she called. thank goodness. When I asked how much chocolate the dog had consumed I found out it was a Hershey Kiss. 1 kiss. then I asked what kind of dog it was. It was a 2 yo Great Dane. So, had the woman called a medical professional first, she would have saved herself an enormous amount of worry and the dog an enormous amount of distress by forcing H2O2 down its throat. Is this an anamoly, maybe. But I believe that breeders should not confuse themselves with Drs because they have had a lot of dogs.

I am not saying that breeders dont have value. They most certainly do. I still talk to mine on a regular basis for a lot of things, and my breeders call me when they have weird medical issues. Its a give and take.

I am not bashing breeders, or owners for that matter. I know it may come off as that. But I am truely not. I think the best thing is when an owner is informed, asks questions and is an advocate for their dogs health.




selzer said:


> I will go one farther. When my sister delivered her child at 26 weeks along, she could have simply believed that the NICU doctors and staff had more education, more training, more experience than she did. But because she made it her business to learn everything she could in a very short time, she saved that baby's life for sure two times already while she was in their care. That child is at home today. I do not think she would be if my sister did not question things that were going on with her, stuff they were giving her, and if she just trusted that baby into their care.


I commend your sister. She sounds like and amazing woman and mother. I am very happy to know that her child is so lucky as to have someone fight for them. You should be amazingly proud.



selzer said:


> When my parents were raised, they would NEVER question a doctor or a teacher. The mindset was very much, they have education, they know, we do not know. We need to do what they say. And pretty much blind obedience is what they gave.
> 
> I will never think that is healthy. So I am the nightmare client that will ask stupid questions and question many things.


I cant see you being a nightmare. Because I believe that clients should ask questions and understand what is going on. I dont think I have said any different to that in this conversation. (thank you by that way, this has been great) I dont expect blind loyalty. But I also dont expect my ethics to be questioned. If that is what someone is doing, then yet again I say, find another Vet.


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## Draugr

> Plenty of studies have been done, peer reviewed and published that have proven that sterilized animals live longer, healthier lives.


Do share, please.

This is a topic that interests me a lot and I've done a lot of my own research over the past couple years since deciding to own a dog, and I've yet to come across even a _single_ legitimate study that came out with such a result, other than a few surveys (few of which had the same results). And not for lack of searching, either.

LOTS of pro-speuter websites repeating that "fact," but absolutely nothing to back it, in any of the cases. 

The only lifespan study as it relates to speuter/not speuter that I've ever seen is the study on female rottweilers, and basically what came out of that, is that it's likely (note I said likely, not proven) better to wait until middle age to spay female dogs of breeds with high cancer risks, otherwise, you risk _shortening_ lifespan.

But that's a very highly specific subgroup of dogs, and there spaying before age 4 correlated with a decrease in lifespan.

I've yet to come across anything else (as in a scientific study) dealing with speutering and lifespan in a general sense.


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## selzer

And, I agree with you. If you do not trust a vet to not deliberately by abuse or gross negligence hurt your dog while it is out of your sight, than find another vet. 

I just do not know if you can't trust your current vet, how will you trust a new vet? 

I would expect people go into veterinary medicine and other carreers with animals because they like animals. So you would not expect them to hurt them. I know that Engineers go through less school, and on average make more money than vets. And in business, accounting, business management, etc, you can make even more. So vets are not going into it for the money. 

You would think that the same would be true of groomers and trainers. And perhaps because they do not have to go through a lot of school, and preparation for their jobs, a wider variety of personalities end up with those jobs. Time and time again we have heard of these people, who really ought to like critters, how they have abused them while in their custody. I have seen a groomer tie my dog by the neck on a raised table, and then leave her to answer the phone and the dog slipped of the table and was hanging by her neck. And she did not offer this information -- I did not want the dog to see me, so the groomer did not know that I saw that. And she never told me. I had to bring it up. 

If you let your kid go back into the doctor's office to get treated, when they come out, they can tell you what the doctor did. The dog cannot. 

Vets have to go through a ton of education/preparation. But vet techs, not nearly so much.

Vet techs change jobs a lot too. I get to know some of them, but I often see new techs too. I expect a vet clinic to be rather harsh on an employee that is not respecting animals, when they are caught at it. 

It bothers me if I have been there for injections, toenail clips, wound dressing, blood drawing, etc., if they suddenly need to take my dog out of the room for anything like this. Why? 

At my clinic I will be pretty free with my dogs. At another clinic, I might be more hesitant. 

So I understand when people do not like letting their dogs out of their sight when it is not necessary.

ETA: we are not going to agree about the merits of spay/neuter and when to have it done, that is not the point of this thread, there are many of them around. So if you want to continue that discussion, I will bow out.


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## BGSD

gsdsar said:


> Of course those are few and far between, usually we get the "oh he had a really bad experience at a vet I used to go to and now he hates all vets" really???? If one bad experience made a dog hate something that much, then why the heck does my dog STILL get in the trash??? Trust me, he has some BAD experiences with mom when caught doing that.


Yes really. Unless you physically abuse your dog when he gets in the trash, then it's not a the same thing, especially since your dog inherently trusts his/her pack, so you can get away with some stuff.

Anyways, I'm currently dealing with such an EXACT issue. I made a thread about it here. My pup was very good at the vet, but then I went to a new vet for 3 appointments only to do fecal and heartworm tests. Because of their improper treatment my dog became more and more feareful of the vet each time, because each time the idiot technicians were more and more physical with him. The last straw was on the 3rd visit, when they scared him so much that he pooped himself. That Vet and her technicians, although nice people, didn't know how to handle fearful dogs and certainly weren't aware of the fact that THEY were reinforcing my dog's fearful behaviors.

I haven't gone to a vet since, because I haven't had to. But I know I now have an uphill battle to fight to get my pup to lose his fear of the vet.

Overall, after having gone to several different vets, I've come to the conclusion that not all vets are created equal....by LARGE measure, and in general I don't trust them too much.

If you want my business, you better treat me and my dog well.


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## gsdsar

BGSD said:


> Yes really. Unless you physically abuse your dog when he gets in the trash, then it's not a the same thing, especially since your dog inherently trusts his/her pack, so you can get away with some stuff.
> 
> Anyways, I'm currently dealing with such an EXACT issue. I made a thread about it here. My pup was very good at the vet, but then I went to a new vet for 3 appointments only to do fecal and heartworm tests. Because of their improper treatment my dog became more and more feareful of the vet each time, because each time the idiot technicians were more and more physical with him. The last straw was on the 3rd visit, when they scared him so much that he pooped himself. That Vet and her technicians, although nice people, didn't know how to handle fearful dogs and certainly weren't aware of the fact that THEY were reinforcing my dog's fearful behaviors.
> 
> I haven't gone to a vet since, because I haven't had to. But I know I now have an uphill battle to fight to get my pup to lose his fear of the vet.
> 
> Overall, after having gone to several different vets, I've come to the conclusion that not all vets are created equal....by LARGE measure, and in general I don't trust them too much.
> 
> If you want my business, you better treat me and my dog well.


I read your thread, and I ma sorry that you had such a bad experience with your vet and his staff. I was not there and therefor cannot really comment or give advice. 

but as others in your thread had mentioned, as did you, your pup was already scared, and he was fighting. Did the staff handle it well. Maybe, maybe not. i dnot know again I was not there. 

Please remeber that we are given a small amount of time to do what it is that is needed. Maybe 30 min, sometimes 20. I dont always have 30 minutes to make your dog relaxed and trusting. I just dont. I wish I did. but then your visit would cost exponentially more than it does. 

To anyone who has a dog that fears going to a Vet. Take the time out your day to go early. To sit in the waiting room and walk the grounds and acclimate your dog before the appointment. it is your responsibilty, more than mine, to make sure your dog has the support it needs. I am there for medical reasons, not to train. 

My dogs love the Vet. I trust everyone I work with to handle my dogs and my dog to respond and behave accordingly. But I am lucky. My dogs come to work, they Hike with my coworkers and get treats and love when nothing bad is happening. most people dont have that luxury.

if you have a dog with fear issues, make that well known before going to the office. If you dog needs a fecal- get it yourself and dont ask me to stuff a stick up his butt and get it. Do what YOU can to not have me be invasive to your dogs space. I dont want him to hate me. I really dont.

I love GSD but lets be honest. They are wimps at the Vet. They really are. They are a vocal and stressy bunch 90 percent of the time. Its just what they are. The ones that are not, do not have issues. if their handlers gives them to someone, they go. I have PSD walk in the back with me when their handler is up front. because the handler handed me the leash. But for the most part. They are wimps, they dont want to be manhandled, they dont want to be away from mommy, a tiny kitten needle makes them holler like I ripped their uterus out with a spoon.

As owners we are aware of this, and it is our job to make them comfortable and give them a comfortable experience. we take the time to socialize and go to training and the dog park. But most of us dont take the time to restrain, hold their paws, lift their tails, put them on a scale, lift their lips and listen to their hearts. its not a part of of every day training, but with our breed it should be. It would make their lives and mine a whole lot easier. You pay 200 bucks for 6 weeks of training. Pay 200 bucks for 6 Drs appointments, where all the Dr has to do is come in and feed treats and chit chat. It would go a long way.

But now we are off subject.


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## gsdsar

Draugr said:


> Do share, please.
> 
> This is a topic that interests me a lot and I've done a lot of my own research over the past couple years since deciding to own a dog, and I've yet to come across even a _single_ legitimate study that came out with such a result, other than a few surveys (few of which had the same results). And not for lack of searching, either.
> 
> LOTS of pro-speuter websites repeating that "fact," but absolutely nothing to back it, in any of the cases.
> 
> The only lifespan study as it relates to speuter/not speuter that I've ever seen is the study on female rottweilers, and basically what came out of that, is that it's likely (note I said likely, not proven) better to wait until middle age to spay female dogs of breeds with high cancer risks, otherwise, you risk _shortening_ lifespan.
> 
> But that's a very highly specific subgroup of dogs, and there spaying before age 4 correlated with a decrease in lifespan.
> 
> I've yet to come across anything else (as in a scientific study) dealing with speutering and lifespan in a general sense.


 
Give me some time and I will get you links- I will ask tommorrow for journals and such and hopefully post soon. If I cannot then I will eat crow, not with a smile, but I will.


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## Draugr

gsdsar said:


> Give me some time and I will get you links- I will ask tommorrow for journals and such and hopefully post soon. If I cannot then I will eat crow, not with a smile, but I will.


Thanks, I'll look forward to them . I know behavioral reasons are often cited as a reason entire male dogs don't live as long (running off, getting hit in the road, etc) and I can't argue with that, but considering my dog has no inclination nor opportunity to do that, I'm more concerned with medical consequences. Everything I've read says (well, it doesn't say this, this is the conclusion *I* have drawn from it) it's probably beneficial in old age if they have symptomatic complications from BPH but until then, it's not medically beneficial. But, I'm always open to reading more research. Knowledge is power!


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## Germanshepherdlova

I waited until my dog was 2 to neuter him because I read that neutering before maturity would increase bone cancer, and neutering in general can increase certain types of cancer. Here is a link, not sure if it will help. I wasn't going to neuter my GSD at all, but had to due to a medical reason. My lab isn't going to be neutered unless there is a medical reason to. My dog are indoor dogs, when they are outside I have a six foot fence, and I watch them-when I take them out of the house for a walk or such they are on a lead, so I see no reason to neuter him.

Oh yeah, the link-A population study of neutering status as a risk fa... [Prostate. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## Hercules

**** NO! I find that SOOO sketchy, they could be doing all sorts of things to the dog and I wouldn't know. I don't trust people I don't know personally so I would never let someone I don't know take my dog away from me. You need to take him to the back? great I'm coming with. You don't allow me to come back there while you are putting needles into my dog? that's fine I'll take my business elsewhere. surgeries/neutering/spaying/etc. is the only time I would be willing to let someone leave my sight with my dogs.


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## Msmaria

For neutering no, we did not stay nor would I even want to. But for all other non surgical procedures he has no problem , if we ask to. I think a vet should let owner stay for exam, if a vet didnt I would wonder why not.


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## DJEtzel

I got to watch my border collie's surgery, which was pretty neat. I don't leave them for almost anything.


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## selzer

I've watched c-sections. I think it is neat. But it is also hard to see your pup out there getting cut open with a mask over her muzzle. I can see why most people probably aren't good candidates to be in there. There's a LOT of blood. Breeders have to be able to handle fluids. But ordinary pet owners, I don't know. 

If you have someone who is an expert in their field performing the surgery with great staff, and they are accustomed to working with pet owners looking on, then that is one thing. If you have a regular all purpose veterinarian doing the surgery and that will increase the stress on him or her, worrying about the pet owner and what is happening with them, then I can understand not wanting people in there. 

I have offered, because I know what to do with an unresponsive puppy. and its not like a normal delivery when you generally get 20 minutes to 2 hours between births. If you have five pups coming out all at once, you want five people in the operating room besides the surgeon ready to get them going. 

I don't like seeing my dog getting stuck several times for a blood draw. I certainly want to be there, so I know how many times they had to stick her, and mine are generally less nervous when I am right there. For some people though, the owners make their dogs more nervous. I can understand wanting to remove the dog for some things if you have someone who is likely to make things worse for the dog. 

It's a judgement call, and some practices just make that call for everyone in general. I think that nowadays people are less likely to just bend to whatever, and will go to another clinic at the drop of a hat, so vets want to do whatever their pet owners want within reason, so I think more and more the idea that people want to be right there is over-riding the take the dog in the back to draw blood or give vaccs ideology. 

There is an ER that has done that to me every time, and I generally won't go there. I will drive 2 hours and go to the 24 hour clinic that I feel is more professional, has better equipment and a lab, has doctors on call that are specialists, and are no more expensive than the ER. 

My own vet put in a policy of taking the dogs to the back for blood draws, and that lasted one visit. The next time I was in there, they took it right in front of me. I let them take my dog to the back, and I don't think I said anything. But probably enough people did, that it was that short-lived.


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## TAR HEEL MOM

My vet knows that I work medical at my shelter so she is pretty open with me being around for almost all things. I did not stay when my Lab was spayed. Any surgical procedure would be a no-no and that is fine with me. I also let them take my dogs back to the grooming room for toe nail clips. They behave better without me there. But all vacinations and routine exams are done with me in the room.


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## jafo220

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Wow, thats strange. Ive never been to a vet that operates that way. Our current vet wants us there. It helps with keeping Cruz from trying to eat one of them while being treated. I think they look at it like better your dog bite you than your dog bites me. 

I would not trust leaving my partner alone in a room with people with needles and such. Not to say they would intentionally do something mean, I just wouldn't think of leaving him alone in that situation. I would find another vet if they didn't let me stay in the room. I want to know exactly what and how they are treating him.


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## pyratemom

I am always in the exam room with my dog. They would not be able to keep me out. My vet understands this and always gives the owner the choice but he does prefer that they come in with their dogs to make the dog more comfortable.


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## Gharrissc

Honestly I think if owners are so high strung about their dogs being out of their sight, then go to another vet. I trust my vet and their abilities to handle my dogs. If I have something to do I will often drop my dogs off for the exam and come back later. The vet will always call me if there is something I need to know about right then. Otherwise he takes me back to the exam room to go over everything when I come to pick up the dogs.


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## DJEtzel

Gharrissc said:


> Honestly I think if owners are so high strung about their dogs being out of their sight, then go to another vet. I trust my vet and their abilities to handle my dogs. If I have something to do I will often drop my dogs off for the exam and come back later. The vet will always call me if there is something I need to know about right then. Otherwise he takes me back to the exam room to go over everything when I come to pick up the dogs.


Unfortunately, I've never been able to find a vet I trusted. I've switched vets numerous times and this is as good as it gets for me.


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## gsdsar

DJEtzel said:


> Unfortunately, I've never been able to find a vet I trusted. I've switched vets numerous times and this is as good as it gets for me.


Why? What have they done to make you distrust them? 


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## Daisy

I was a vet tech many years ago. Routine stuff was handled in the exam room with the owner present. But if ears needed flushing, anal glands expressing, abscess lanced, etc., we took the animal back into the tx room where we had the proper equipment, etc. Lots going on back there, surgery preps, hospital treatments, etc., so we rarely invited an owner back. Plus, some animals that act frightened in front of their owners did great in the back without them. We never harmed or used force (perhaps a muzzle if dog trying to bite), but we were concerned with treating the animal.


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## DJEtzel

gsdsar said:


> Why? What have they done to make you distrust them?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Numerous vets have mishandled and mislabeled my dog. They have caused behavioral issues- so I want to handle my dogs from now on to prevent anything like this from happening again!


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## Saphire

DJEtzel said:


> Unfortunately, I've never been able to find a vet I trusted. I've switched vets numerous times and this is as good as it gets for me.


I cannot imagine not trusting my vet. In fact I would not take my dog to anyone I could not trust. My vet and I have many disagreements suh as raw diet and vaccination protocols but in the end I trust him to follow my directions for treatments.


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## misslesleedavis1

I have always stuck with the brooklin vet, the vet that works there is super nice and i trust what she says.


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## gsdsar

Saphire said:


> My vet and I have many disagreements suh as raw diet and vaccination protocols but in the end I trust him to follow my directions for treatments.


Sorry, cause I bet the way it's written is not how it was intended. But, you trust your vet to "follow your directions for treatment"????? Really? You are telling your vet how to treat your dog? Why go to vet then, if you know how to treat it? 

That's not trust. 



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## DJEtzel

gsdsar said:


> Sorry, cause I bet the way it's written is not how it was intended. But, you trust your vet to "follow your directions for treatment"????? Really? You are telling your vet how to treat your dog? Why go to vet then, if you know how to treat it?
> 
> That's not trust.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I know how and with what to treat most issues with my dogs... I don't have a license to prescribe medicine or give rabies vaccines, unfortunately. 

Just took puppy to the vet two days ago for a UTI. Didn't need a urinalysis. I've dealt with enough UTIs in puppies to know what was wrong, what antibiotic to give and how much for how long. Legally though, I had to spend money on the exam and urinalysis for them to tell me what I already knew and give me what I needed. I need them for their license to practice medicine. That's it 9 times out of 10.


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## Saphire

I am not about to tell my vet how to perform surgery but I do tell him what vaccines and medications I will allow. I tell my vet what I feed my dog, I don't ask for direction on certain topics.


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## Saphire

I guess after 30 years with the same vet he knows by now what I will and will not do as well as the why. I would have no problem with my vet making emergency decisions if for some reason I was not available to do so and I would be comfortable with them.


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## selzer

gsdsar said:


> Sorry, cause I bet the way it's written is not how it was intended. But, you trust your vet to "follow your directions for treatment"????? Really? You are telling your vet how to treat your dog? Why go to vet then, if you know how to treat it?
> 
> That's not trust.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually, my vet is someone I employ to give me the information I need to make the right decisions for my dog. And then I may employ my vet to carry out treatments I do not feel qualified to do myself. I respect them. I generally follow their instructions. As far as it is possible and for 30 + years now, I have trusted them. But, I am ultimately responsible for my pets' care, and what is done and what is not done with them. 

My vet does not have to do anything if they do not feel it is right, but they understand that the pet is mine, and there are generally options. It is up to them to explain the options. It is up to me to decide between them and commuicate that effectively. I think this is basically what was meant by telling the vet how to treat our pets.

ETA: I generally know how to treat myself. I go to my doctor because I can't get the drugs. I tell her what I need, and she agrees and gives them to me. If I could get the drugs without the doctor, for those things I do know, I would, and healthcare wouldn't cost so much. I mean, who is going to abuse antibiotics? They should be available over the counter.


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## misslesleedavis1

My fiance took one of ours to the vet over a case of Demodectric mange, we still have no idea how it happened, the only thing we can think of is when he got cut above the eye (that is were it started) playing to hard and as it was healing he was sent in to be fixed and the stress was too much for him. The vet had mentioned to andrew that he needed a blood test to see if he was okay to take Ivermectin because BCs were most likely to suffer an allergic reaction. Andrew decided to do some quick research on the matter and in the process saved us 250.00 for a test because it turns out that BCs have less of a chance of being allergic then GSDs, silken windhounds and the list was pretty long. If i had of been there i woul have insisted on the test, but as it turned out he did fine and is mange free.


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## Packen

I totally trust the vet my dogs go to, I can stay during treatment when I feel the need to do so. No issues. I also do not believe that a vet can cause behavior issues, it is an excuse as any other as no vet can change temperament that the dog already has. The people who blame vets for ruining temperaments/behavior do not know what they are talking about.


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## gsdsar

selzer said:


> I mean, who is going to abuse antibiotics? They should be available over the counter.


This ignorance of the power and mis/overuse of antibiotics is exactly why they are not all over the counter. 

Not all meds are the same. Not all problems are the same. Not everything needs antibiotics and not all antibiotics treat all things. Incorrect and overuse of antibiotics are the reason we have super bugs, and very resistant strains. 



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## Packen

By treatment I mean when the dogs need serious treatment like stitches n other stuff requiring sedation. I am always present during routine exams and shots and what not.


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## DJEtzel

Packen said:


> I totally trust the vet my dogs go to, I can stay during treatment when I feel the need to do so. No issues. I also do not believe that a vet can cause behavior issues, it is an excuse as any other as no vet can change temperament that the dog already has. The people who blame vets for ruining temperaments/behavior do not know what they are talking about.


I don't know what I'm talking about? My friendly, well-trained dog got taken by the vet and restrained roughly without me present, I was told he had no training and was "wild"... next time we went to the vet he was NOT friendly and was very nervous and had to be muzzled. They took him away from me AGAIN and forcefully restrained him, then he started being aggressive towards people OUTSIDE of the vet's office as well. No problems before that happened. Stopped letting the vets take him away and manhandle him, worked on counter conditioning, and now he is fine and doesn't behave aggressively with people. 

Sounds like his temperament changed, to me. What do I know though, I've only had him for four years and worked through all of these issues myself.


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## Packen

Temperament does not change, people just find out after 4 years or so  and point fingers as it is the easy out.


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## DJEtzel

misslesleedavis1 said:


> My fiance took one of ours to the vet over a case of Demodectric mange, we still have no idea how it happened, the only thing we can think of is when he got cut above the eye (that is were it started) playing to hard and as it was healing he was sent in to be fixed and the stress was too much for him. The vet had mentioned to andrew that he needed a blood test to see if he was okay to take Ivermectin because BCs were most likely to suffer an allergic reaction. Andrew decided to do some quick research on the matter and in the process saved us 250.00 for a test because it turns out that BCs have less of a chance of being allergic then GSDs, silken windhounds and the list was pretty long. If i had of been there i woul have insisted on the test, but as it turned out he did fine and is mange free.


Not sure where your fiancé did his research, but you are both lucky and wrong. 

Collies and border collies are the most common dogs to have allergic reactions, then Aussies and GSDs are up. In collies, border collies, and Aussies reputable breeders test to make sure dogs are not being bred with the mutant MDR1 gene that causes the reaction because it is SO common.


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## selzer

misslesleedavis1 said:


> My fiance took one of ours to the vet over a case of Demodectric mange, we still have no idea how it happened, the only thing we can think of is when he got cut above the eye (that is were it started) playing to hard and as it was healing he was sent in to be fixed and the stress was too much for him. The vet had mentioned to andrew that he needed a blood test to see if he was okay to take Ivermectin because BCs were most likely to suffer an allergic reaction. Andrew decided to do some quick research on the matter and in the process saved us 250.00 for a test because it turns out that BCs have less of a chance of being allergic then GSDs, silken windhounds and the list was pretty long. If i had of been there i woul have insisted on the test, but as it turned out he did fine and is mange free.


Demodex is a mite present on most dogs. It is passed only by the dam while whelps are nursing. Beyond that it is not transmitted from dog to dog. And thus it said to not be contagious. It usually causes no issues, and is not itchy and the dog's immune system usually is sufficent to keep the little blighters under control. Puppies whose immune system is immature might have a problem with them, and when a dog is ill or under stress, they may have a problem with them. When the proliferate, the hair will fall out, exposed skin is susceptible to problems from the elements and secondary infections, like stap can cause itching etc. And care is then needed, mostly to boost the immune system, and to treat secondary infections. 

Sarcoptic mange, which is also called red manged, is terribly itchy for the dog, and it is contagious to other dogs and humans. 

Ivermectin has been used to treat demodex. I haven't used this method. But it may work just fine. Your vet was correct to want a blood test to test for the MDR1 gene. It isn't just allergies in general. Collies in particular are prone to a gene which will cause them to die if given Ivermectin. I really do not know about all the breeds of Collies, but some say ALL herding breeds are more prone to it, and ivermectin is not safe without testing for the gene. The only experience I have with it is that my sister gave ivermectin to her rough collie as a preventive for heartworm, and the dog died. No question about the cause.


----------



## selzer

gsdsar said:


> This ignorance of the power and mis/overuse of antibiotics is exactly why they are not all over the counter.
> 
> Not all meds are the same. Not all problems are the same. Not everything needs antibiotics and not all antibiotics treat all things. Incorrect and overuse of antibiotics are the reason we have super bugs, and very resistant strains.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think we have super bugs and resistant strains because people do not finish all the meds. Probably because they want to hoard them in case they get sick again and don't want to go to the doctor again. If antibiotics were more available, maybe people would take the whole course of antibiotics, knowing that if they need them again, they can run to the drugstore and get them.


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## misslesleedavis1

DJEtzel said:


> Not sure where your fiancé did his research, but you are both lucky and wrong.
> 
> Collies and border collies are the most common dogs to have allergic reactions, then Aussies and GSDs are up. In collies, border collies, and Aussies reputable breeders test to make sure dogs are not being bred with the mutant MDR1 gene that causes the reaction because it is SO common.


I am sorry but how am i wrong? and check out this link, not sure it is the on he used but its the one i just did a quick look up
Continuing of Ivermectin Thread - Farm Life Forum - GardenWeb


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## misslesleedavis1

selzer said:


> Demodex is a mite present on most dogs. It is passed only by the dam while whelps are nursing. Beyond that it is not transmitted from dog to dog. And thus it said to not be contagious. It usually causes no issues, and is not itchy and the dog's immune system usually is sufficent to keep the little blighters under control. Puppies whose immune system is immature might have a problem with them, and when a dog is ill or under stress, they may have a problem with them. When the proliferate, the hair will fall out, exposed skin is susceptible to problems from the elements and secondary infections, like stap can cause itching etc. And care is then needed, mostly to boost the immune system, and to treat secondary infections.
> 
> Sarcoptic mange, which is also called red manged, is terribly itchy for the dog, and it is contagious to other dogs and humans.
> 
> Ivermectin has been used to treat demodex. I haven't used this method. But it may work just fine. Your vet was correct to want a blood test to test for the MDR1 gene. It isn't just allergies in general. Collies in particular are prone to a gene which will cause them to die if given Ivermectin. I really do not know about all the breeds of Collies, but some say ALL herding breeds are more prone to it, and ivermectin is not safe without testing for the gene. The only experience I have with it is that my sister gave ivermectin to her rough collie as a preventive for heartworm, and the dog died. No question about the cause.


Yeah they did a skin scrape and confirmed it was demodectric mange, i did my research and read up on most of what you wrote. He started out on a low dose of it and never really worked his way up from the low dose. Now he has had a second skin scraping and the vet advised that he was okay to stop treatment. I am still at a loss on how it happened to him but if i had to put money on something it would be stress as the culprit.


----------



## selzer

Packen said:


> I totally trust the vet my dogs go to, I can stay during treatment when I feel the need to do so. No issues.* I also do not believe that a vet can cause behavior issues, it is an excuse as any other as no vet can change temperament that the dog already has. The people who blame vets for ruining temperaments/behavior do not know what they are talking about*.


I agree. The temperament is what it is. 

But, a lot of people have dogs that have weak nerves. For these dogs rough handling can create problems. And unfortunately, even vets mistake fearful behaviors as aggressive behaviors and they need to protect themselves and their staff. So, I think it is completely possible for a dog to have more problems after a vet visit because of the handling they received there. 

Dogs with weaker nerves can make awesome pets. Their owners just need to know where their strengths and weaknesses are, and build up their confidence. Treatment at a vet _could _create a set back in the dog's confidence or new behaviors that weren't evident before. 

I can understand why people with such dogs will want to see what is happening to their dogs, especially when there are reports like the videotaping of the vet tech that was abusing the patients. 

A good dog, goes into the vet, hops on the scale, gets blood drawn, toenails chopped, stitches out, a surgery on the ear, a c-section, whatever, and walks out without any lingering issues even though serious pain/discomfort might result in some of these things. These dogs go back to the vet to get stitches out, or for a follow up, and just do not act that they have been through anything traumatic at all.


----------



## DJEtzel

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I am sorry but how am i wrong? and check out this link, not sure it is the on he used but its the one i just did a quick look up
> Continuing of Ivermectin Thread - Farm Life Forum - GardenWeb


First of all, that article is years old. 

Second of all, statistics from wsu only take into account mutant/mutant dogs that are TESTED. Not carriers, which could be unknowingly bred to other carriers, or dogs that aren't tested. 

In the BC community, it is expected to have dogs tested for this before giving them drugs, because SO MANY are carriers. It is just as common as it is in Aussies to do it. As a BC owner, I couldn't imagine taking the risk without knowing. It is so uncommon in the GSD community that breeders don't test for it and it's not been an issue nearly as widespread as it is in Aussies or Collies (borders included). IMO it is wildly irresponsible to give such a drug to a collie without knowing.


----------



## DJEtzel

selzer said:


> I agree. The temperament is what it is.
> 
> But, a lot of people have dogs that have weak nerves. For these dogs rough handling can create problems. And unfortunately, even vets mistake fearful behaviors as aggressive behaviors and they need to protect themselves and their staff. So, I think it is completely possible for a dog to have more problems after a vet visit because of the handling they received there.
> 
> Dogs with weaker nerves can make awesome pets. Their owners just need to know where their strengths and weaknesses are, and build up their confidence. Treatment at a vet _could _create a set back in the dog's confidence or new behaviors that weren't evident before.
> 
> I can understand why people with such dogs will want to see what is happening to their dogs, especially when there are reports like the videotaping of the vet tech that was abusing the patients.
> 
> A good dog, goes into the vet, hops on the scale, gets blood drawn, toenails chopped, stitches out, a surgery on the ear, a c-section, whatever, and walks out without any lingering issues even though serious pain/discomfort might result in some of these things. These dogs go back to the vet to get stitches out, or for a follow up, and just do not act that they have been through anything traumatic at all.


I'm not sure how it makes sense to say that the temperament cannot change, but then go on to say it certainly does in dogs with weak nerves?

Obviously mine has weak nerves and that's why he was able to be effected by such an experience so easily, but I don't know how it's fair to say that his temperament didn't change?  He went from friendly, to aggressive, more aggressive, then back to friendly after work on it.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

DJEtzel said:


> First of all, that article is years old.
> 
> Second of all, statistics from wsu only take into account mutant/mutant dogs that are TESTED. Not carriers, which could be unknowingly bred to other carriers, or dogs that aren't tested.
> 
> In the BC community, it is expected to have dogs tested for this before giving them drugs, because SO MANY are carriers. It is just as common as it is in Aussies to do it. As a BC owner, I couldn't imagine taking the risk without knowing. It is so uncommon in the GSD community that breeders don't test for it and it's not been an issue nearly as widespread as it is in Aussies or Collies (borders included). IMO it is wildly irresponsible to give such a drug to a collie without knowing.


Well he risked it (I was not present to protest his risk) and im looking at a happy healthy BC that is mainge free and loving life. Although, he was on a very little dosage every 24 hours.

Some latest info on it, 

Research shows that 1 in 3 or 4 Collies in the U.S. is "pure" for the mutation. These Collies suffer acute and often fatal neurotoxicosis when certain drugs are administered at high doses in treatment and prevention of heartworm, and this may also apply to other ailments (see below). 
An additional 50% of Collies carry the mdr1-1Δ gene and may also be susceptible to toxic effects when certain drugs are administered at high doses. Only 1 in 5 Collies on average is "pure" for normal for the MDR1 gene and therefore can tolerate these drugs at therapeutic doses .
Two common medications administered in an oral monthly tablet for prevention of heartworm (ivermectin and milbemycin oxime) have been given to Collies "pure" for the mutation mdr1-1Δ without incident. These two forms of heartworm prophylaxis are equally safe at the monthly prophylaxis dose, and both are toxic at higher doses. 
At least one published study confirms anecdotes that moxidectin (used in the 6-month injection for heartworm prevention) can cause acute and sometimes fatal neurotoxicosis in susceptible Collies.


----------



## selzer

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not sure how it makes sense to say that the temperament cannot change, but then go on to say it certainly does in dogs with weak nerves?
> 
> Obviously mine has weak nerves and that's why he was able to be effected by such an experience so easily, but I don't know how it's fair to say that his temperament didn't change?  He went from friendly, to aggressive, more aggressive, then back to friendly after work on it.


I think temperament is kind of like IQ. It is what it is. It really doesn't change. Now a person with a 100 IQ may work their way through college and get a BS, and then gain the experience in a field and be utterly more knowledgeable about a topic than a person with a 130 IQ that has gone a different route. But it doesn't change the fact that the one person's overall potential is higher.

A dog has a potential. And it is what is. If it has a weak temperament, early socialization, continued socialization, regular training, good leadership, and excellent management will take that dog to its potential -- possibly a dog that is obedient, biddible, and capable in most ordinary circumstances. 

The dog with the same potential, and no socialization or bad experiences will act different. It will be fearful in new situations, and it may even be dangerous out of that fear. A vet visit where the dog is pushed beyond its threshold might cause a change in behavior, not in teperament. 

A dog with a strong temperament is far less likely to be affected negatively from less socialization, training, leadership and management, because you do not have to work with this dog to give him many positive experiences, and build his confidence through positive training. His confidence is there, and it may get him into its own set of difficulties, but it will be able to handle whatever training/management/behavior modification put it place to get him where his owner wants him to be. 

Think of a police dog. It isn't worth a **** if a single kick will make it avoid drunk out of control people. If treatment at a veterinary clinic can change a dog, than that dog could not possibly be able to be used for police work. 

The potential is what it is. The behavior is dependent on how we manage the dog and the environment with respect to its potential.


----------



## Lin

gsdsar said:


> This ignorance of the power and mis/overuse of antibiotics is exactly why they are not all over the counter.
> 
> Not all meds are the same. Not all problems are the same. Not everything needs antibiotics and not all antibiotics treat all things. Incorrect and overuse of antibiotics are the reason we have super bugs, and very resistant strains.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ditto. Antibiotics are currently abused by Drs and patients alike. Patients come in and demand antibiotics for viral infections from Drs. Antibiotics do NOT help viral infections. Patients also do not finish antibiotics (antibiotics hit a point of inhibiting bacterial growth before the point of complete killing off of the bacteria. Stopping antibiotics before the infection is completely gone allows the bacteria to be exposed to a low enough level for them to develop resistance to the antibiotic. They then can pass on this resistance gene to any passing bacteria in the body, of which there is many including healthy bacteria. And taking antibiotics when not needed can also expose bacteria in the system to the antibiotic when not necessary causing them to develop resistance, which then becomes a problem down the line in the individual or in other individuals that the bacteria/gene was passed along to.) Drs prescribe broad spectrum antibiotics when not necessary, allowing bacteria to become resistant and preventing these broad spectrum antibiotics at being helpful when they're truly needed. One reason for doing this is laziness, another is the cost of healthcare. Doing a culture and prescribing the appropriate antibiotic for the infection (and ensuring antibiotics are needed) however is cheaper and better for health in the long term. 

Temperament is something that you are born with, and is quite a chunk genetic. It does not change. Behavior changes, and is based on both temperament and environment. The dogs temperament lead to the behavioral change when exposed to the rough treatment at the vet, and then with work resorted back to initial behavior prior to the issue. The temperament did not change. You could take a dog with a different temperament (such as what we refer to as strong nerves) and expose it to 10x the same experiences, without a change in behavior as a result. This would be due to the underlying temperament. Psych studies in temperament and the basis of it are very interesting and I think can bring a lot of information to people involved in training. 

I had a foster dog with weak nerves, posted about him here on the forum. His name was Chaos and when he came to me he was an absolute mess. Shaking in the corner terrified, and borderline fear aggressive in reactions. After much love, rehabilitation, and training his behavior in situations (including new situations, such as being exposed to strangers in public) began to mirror my own dogs. That didn't mean his temperament changed at all or was identical to the temperament of my dogs. Just his behavior. If he was exposed to the same abusive neglectful situation he came from he would certainly go back to the same behavior. But that will never happen and he was placed in a wonderful home who continued the same love and support and his behavior continued to improve further. 

My dog Emma I would classify as strong nerved, but not nearly as strong nerved as Tessa. I don't know her background before I got her but expect it was not ideal. I also got her smack in the middle of her fear period (which is a good reminder that temperament of a puppy doesn't equal temperament of an adult. Experienced breeders do an excellent job of recognizing in a puppy what the temperament will be, but its no exact science.) She had a bunch of fear issues, some relating to specifics such as wearing a collar or leash. She was also jumpy and at loud noises ran under tables to hide. With love and training her behavior completely changed, and as she grew her temperament solidified into the adult temperament she has today. As a result if she was exposed to the same issues as Chaos was, she would not come out with the same behavior as him. Her base temperament is different, and more resistant to negative experiences.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Well he risked it (I was not present to protest his risk) and im looking at a happy healthy BC that is mainge free and loving life. Although, he was on a very little dosage every 24 hours.
> 
> Some latest info on it,
> 
> Research shows that 1 in 3 or 4 Collies in the U.S. is "pure" for the mutation. These Collies suffer acute and often fatal neurotoxicosis when certain drugs are administered at high doses in treatment and prevention of heartworm, and this may also apply to other ailments (see below).
> An additional 50% of Collies carry the mdr1-1Δ gene and may also be susceptible to toxic effects when certain drugs are administered at high doses. Only 1 in 5 Collies on average is "pure" for normal for the MDR1 gene and therefore can tolerate these drugs at therapeutic doses .
> Two common medications administered in an oral monthly tablet for prevention of heartworm (ivermectin and milbemycin oxime) have been given to Collies "pure" for the mutation mdr1-1Δ without incident. These two forms of heartworm prophylaxis are equally safe at the monthly prophylaxis dose, and both are toxic at higher doses.
> At least one published study confirms anecdotes that moxidectin (used in the 6-month injection for heartworm prevention) can cause acute and sometimes fatal neurotoxicosis in susceptible Collies.


Please include links when you post information like this. 

Test your Dog for the mutant MDR1 gene. Information from the VCPL at Washington State University.
$70 for the test. 

I have a Sheltie mix I fostered, then adopted, who had sarcoptic, then demodex mange. We wanted to treat upon discovery of the sarcoptic (demodex came after) so assumed he was mutant, and treated with Revolution. I continued the mutant concept into his neuter and have 2 other dogs who cannot tolerate butorphonal, who I treat as if mutant. 1 GSD, 1 GSD/BC type mix.


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## huntergreen

i stay with my dogs at the vet.


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## Mishka&Milo

My vet allows me to hold her during shots. I couldn't stand to not be with her, plus I love learning the whys and how's of her treatments. 


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## 3dognite

My last GSD was pretty protective of me personally and we had some minor issues at the vet. I had my dad stay with him at the vet once and my husband after that...he did fine when I wasn't in the room.


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## halo2013

I'm always there for my dog. But my circumstances are different. 

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## Airman1stclass

My wife and I would really love to get a GSD. We both work morning shifts. I wake up at 4 and have to be to work by 5. She wakes up and bring me to work. She doesn't have to be to work until 7:30. She's back home around 11:30 for lunch. Usually has to be back to work around 12:45. We are both home at around 4 in the afternoon. My question is do you think we could get a GDS as a puppy with the schedule that we have. Keep in mind once we are home. We will take the pup wherever we go. We exercise everyday, so the pup being in shape and fit wouldn't be a problem. We are really set on getting a Black Sable GSD puppy. They are just the best looking GSDs. We live in Delaware and wouldn't mind traveling up to 6 hours for the right breeder. Any recommendations would be great. Any feedback really would be very much appreciated!


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## mcdanfam

My vet wants us with the dogs..... They love our dogs and the dogs love them but they feel better if the owners can supervise to make sure they are doing the command properly and not confusing them.....also so the dogs don't wonder where we are and pay more attention to finding us. 


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## mcdanfam

Airman1stclass said:


> My wife and I would really love to get a GSD. We both work morning shifts. I wake up at 4 and have to be to work by 5. She wakes up and bring me to work. She doesn't have to be to work until 7:30. She's back home around 11:30 for lunch. Usually has to be back to work around 12:45. We are both home at around 4 in the afternoon. My question is do you think we could get a GDS as a puppy with the schedule that we have. Keep in mind once we are home. We will take the pup wherever we go. We exercise everyday, so the pup being in shape and fit wouldn't be a problem. We are really set on getting a Black Sable GSD puppy. They are just the best looking GSDs. We live in Delaware and wouldn't mind traveling up to 6 hours for the right breeder. Any recommendations would be great. Any feedback really would be very much appreciated!


It might be exhausting in the beginning, but it would not be impossible! As long as you are dedicated to a few hours if mental and physical exercise a day....and have the time to find a quality trainer that understands the working lines....I don't see why it would be a problem. We had to take our pups out every 3 hours to begin with. But within just a few weeks....they could make it up to 5 hours no problem. We did crate train, we wanted them to be comfortable in crates since they would be traveling with us for vacations, weekend trips and needed to be good in crates for breaks durning training. We learned quickly not all trainers are equal... Our third was out jackpot! He owns and works working line shepherds! Makes a huge difference! The dogs go nuts if they are forced to miss due to weather. This breed loves to work and have excess amounts of energy to accommodate the love. The biggest adjustment for us, was their intense need to go EVERYWHERE with us. The five min ride to drop kids at school...requires them to be along for the ride! Be ready for the tag a long.... 
I can't help with breeders in that area. I am from the Carolina's....and very new to the shepherd world. These are our first two.... it was the best decision we have ever made, but we had researched their needs for over a year to be fully prepared for he work that would be involved....they can be very curious and mischievous when not worked....mentally and physically! If you can get through the first three months are the most exhausting....like with a newly walking toddler....tons of repetition! Worth all the energy, work, time and money! They are my kids best friends and completed our family! They just turned one and my kids adore them!







Good luck! 


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## JanaeUlva

Yep. I was even allowed to watch the ovariectomy that was just performed on my female.


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## Shaolin

Yup! It's one of the reasons I love my vet. She actually asks me to hold him for shots/treatment instead of Techs. Not that he has a problem with her or the Techs, but she says it helps her get through appointments so much quicker. Only time they are taken away is for blood work, which is fine with me. They spoil the crap out of the animals, especially Finn, so I don't worry that they are hurting him.


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## rainy5

My vets lets us stay. It depends on what needs to be done if I would stay. My husband would stay for anything. He stayed when they put his german shepherd down when he was 18. The vet screwed up and didn't use enough and he said to was horrific. He yelled at the vet to give the dog more. He underdosed the dog and he was thrashing etc. The vet was yelling at the nurse to get the dog more. No way to put a dog down. We questioned the vet we have now more than one time before we let them do our retriever. He stayed with our retriever this summer. The vet we use did a great job. 
So some things I would stay for and others I would not but hubby would. Our gsd girl right now don't care if you give her a thermometer,a nail clipping should could care less.


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## Galathiel

I've been to a few vets in my area and have never had one take the animal from the room for routine treatments. They did take my cat in the other room once to get a urine sample .. guess they thought it would be a bit much to see my baby get a needle through her abdomen. Where I go now has only one small exam room so they do have to take my pets to another room to weigh them...no room for scales in the room!


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## Freestep

I was going to stay out of this thread because I've already hashed out my opinion on an identical thread a while back. However...



Packen said:


> I also do not believe that a vet can cause behavior issues, it is an excuse as any other as no vet can change temperament that the dog already has. The people who blame vets for ruining temperaments/behavior do not know what they are talking about.


 Packen nailed it.



selzer said:


> The dog with the same potential, and no socialization or bad experiences will act different. It will be fearful in new situations, and it may even be dangerous out of that fear. A vet visit where the dog is pushed beyond its threshold might cause a change in behavior, not in teperament.


 And Selzer nails it again. Temperament is something the dog is born with, like color. You can modify a dog's behavior and his disposition toward people, but you can't modify his *temperament*.



3dognite said:


> My last GSD was pretty protective of me personally and we had some minor issues at the vet. I had my dad stay with him at the vet once and my husband after that...he did fine when I wasn't in the room.


 There we go. 

As a professional groomer, I've taken dogs away from their owners several times a day, every day, for the past 20+ years. Out of sight. And the pets stay with me for hours, away from their owners. So while I'm not a vet, I'm somewhat of an expert in how dogs behave when they are with vs. away from their owners.

In about 99.9% of cases, dogs are better behaved when their owner is NOT present. I know it seems counterintuitive, but that has been my experience.

As long as the owner is there, the dog may shiver, whine, or otherwise act nervous and want to leave with the owner, making the owner think something horrible has happened to him in the past.  The fact of the matter is, as soon as the owner leaves, the dog will happily follow me to the back room and crate himself up; if he's a regular, he knows what to expect, and now that the owner is gone, he doesn't have any conflict.

I know it seems counterintuitive that the dog would be LESS stressed and better behaved without his owner present. But I bet some of you have had the experience of training or working with someone else's dog--your significant other's, or whatever. Have you ever noticed that the dog will perform brilliantly for you, until the dog's "person" shows up? Then suddenly the dog will not listen to you anymore?

As a groomer, I sometimes have to do things to dogs that they do not like. Let's face it, a lot of dogs don't like to be bathed, or have their toenails done, or whatever. It takes a good bit of desensitization, sweet-talk, and praise to counter the "bad" experiences with "good" experiences, and yes, I do have to sneak some training in there. If the owner was present the whole time, the dog would not listen to or care what I have to say, he'd be so focused on the owner (who would be unintentionally sabotaging the whole process) that it would make everything twice as difficult for me. Not only do I have to focus on calming the animal in my care which may be thin-nerved and frightened, I have to focus on calming a thin-nerved and frightened owner as well. Some people can do it, and more power to 'em, but I'm not one of them. I have a hard time concentrating on the animal when there's someone else standing there talking to me and unwittingly giving the dog signals that sabotage what I am trying to do.

In short, I want to bond with the dog, show him that I can be trusted, and be able to work in a calm, quiet environment with as little external stimuli as possible. When the owner is present, it disrupts this process. 

Having said that, there are exceptions. I have had two dogs in my entire career that really did need to have the owner present; one was a police dog, the other was a neurotic old Peke that would bite everything unless his mommy was holding his head. Because of his short nose and a breathing problem he could not be muzzled, and he really was calmer with his owner there. The owner was understanding and savvy, more so than the vast majority of pet owners, so I made an exception for her.

There's also the subject of liability, which I don't think has been touched on. Groomers, vets, etc. generally have insurance policies that do not allow the general public into the back work area, and furthermore, if your own dog bites you, or you blow a disc trying to lift him onto the table or restrain him, the vet can be sued for damages. So that's another reason why they might want to leave the owner out of the equation. Not everything can be done in an exam room, sometimes you need to go into the treatment room where the drugs, equipment, supplies, and techs are available.

In short, you need to trust your vet. If you don't trust your vet, change vets. 

I was a vet tech before I was a groomer, and I have never, ever seen a veterinarian treat a pet poorly. Sometimes, if the dog is extremely fearful or vicious, and the vet needs to do something the dog doesn't want done, it can look and sound like the vet is doing something horrible. I have a couple of dogs that come in to have their toenails trimmed, and the way they scream, fight and carry on, you'd think I'm cutting off a leg. What owner really wants to be present for that? It's upsetting, and I've already got an upset pet on my hands--I don't need an upset owner too. It's a tough, dirty business, but someone has to do it. I do my best to desensitize, sweet-talk and gentle the pet through what must be done, but in spite of my efforts, some pets still won't *like* it. They generally recover quickly when it's all over, but if there are lasting behavioral changes after a vet or groomer visit, it's usually an indication of an underlying temperament or nerve issue.

I'm not saying that no vet or groomer or trainer anywhere has never treated a dog harshly. I've never personally seen it, but I'm sure it's happened. But, don't jump to that conclusion just because they take the pet out of your sight. Pet professionals are in their chosen profession because they love animals and want to help them. Lord knows it doesn't pay enough to do it otherwise!


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## Kaiser2012

Dakota is a super stable dog and has always done well at the vet. Now saying that, I used to be a tech so I know how to handle a dog and the vet recognizes that. The few times Dakota needed to stay over for treatment (once for a spay and once for a biopsy) she did fine.

Now Kaiser...he loves people. He loves the vet. But he isn't thrilled when he is removed from my presence. The one time he needed to be sedated (to have his nail bed cauterized after he tore the nail off) I did ask to stay with him. This was not the normal vet so he politely said no. Two minutes later he came back and asked if I would accompany him to the treatment room because even under sedation kaiser was fighting to get up. The moment kaiser heard my voice he calmed down and allowed them to fix his toe without an issue.

I hold both my dogs for fecals/temps, drawing blood, vaccines (although those are few and far between), and any other times I need to show the vet or tech something.

I had a tech hurt kaiser when he was just a little munchkin so I'm very particular about who touches my dogs.

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## Blanketback

I held my pup while his anal glands were expressed, and the vet thanked me for helping because she said he visibly relaxed when I tightened my legs around him. I'd been teaching him to tolerate my physical restraining prior to this, so that's probably why. The tech did motion for me to hand over the leash before the procedure, but I said nope. Sorry if that's not how it's done here (it was my first visit) but if I can't stay with my dog then this isn't the right clinic for me. 

I've been seeing vets for decades, and I've always been present for the usual things like shots. I wouldn't expect to be allowed in to watch a surgery, but for anything else I do expect to accompany my dog.


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## N Smith

I trust my vet implicitly - if she takes my dog to the back, I have no worries. However, in all the time I have gone there it has only happened once, when I was health testing two dogs at the same time. She took my Pom to the back to draw blood while I got my Shepherd onto the xray table and set up. Then when she was done, I took the Pom, she did the xrays. She knows my dogs listen to me and I have control, so it is better for her to tell me how she needs to have them move/stand etc. I place them, tell them to stay, she does the work.

Now, if I ever go to another clinic (while travelling etc) I do not allow my dogs out of sight - I don't want anyone "restraining" them when they don't need it. This I think creates a lot of problems with the dogs.

If they were to ever be out of hand/control, then I have no problems with the vets and techs doing what needs to be done. However, thus far they are very well behaved at the vets for everything and have never needed restraint. I just tell them what to do and they do it (ie sit stay, stand stay). They are handled often and can be rolled on their backs etc and had all of their hip and elbow xrays with no sedation, blood draws with no restraint, and physicals with no issues at all.


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## angierose

Generally, I'm in the room for the stuff we've needed done so far. Shots, microchippings, blood draws, etc. One of our vets will do these things with the dog on the floor, and I just hold the leash. They don't wiggle. The other puts them on the exam table, and the dogs are more stressed by this. Usually a tech will hold them there, and I don't mind. It's a firm but mild restraint. For weighings, I walk them back to the scale and they hop up on their own, no problem. 

The vets are respectful of the dogs, I feel. My male is dog aggressive so he wears a muzzle at the vet, and if they have to take him to another room for something. But except for one of the secretaries, none of the people at the office have acted scared of him or made me feel like a bad owner. The secretary wanted to know what "went wrong with that one" (I brought Sam in after bringing in my female, who is goofy and loves everyone) and I didn't appreciate that.


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## Freestep

If the veterinarian and staff are well trained, experienced, and know how to handle animals, you should never have to worry about having them taken out of your sight. The general rule in veterinary medicine is to use the least amount of restraint necessary to accomplish the task at hand. Having said that, some are more proactive about using muzzles, for safety's sake.

Because there are a LOT of backyard-bred, untrained, unsocialized GSDs out there, they have a horrible reputation in the veterinary profession. Some clinics have a policy to automatically muzzle them (and Chows, and Akitas, etc.) due to seeing so many that are biters. So keep that in mind when you take your GSD to the vet--the staff has had bad experiences in the past, so be gentle. 

On the upside, if you bring in a well-bred, trained, socialized, bombproof GSD, they will not stop gushing.


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## Germanshepherdlova

One of my dogs now goes back with the vet alone, and my other dog (Brutus) does not. Brutus doesn't want to go if I don't go with him so I had a chat with the vet and I now accompany Brutus for everything. My other dog Oso goes right back with the vet without hesitation so I stay in the waiting area. So basically, I now go by how comfortable my dog feels with the vet.


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## Nyx

Initial exam and minor to moderate treatment. No problem.

If it is serious, like needing surgery or such than Negative with understanding.


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## Seer

I only step out of the room while my dog changes into his vet gown for examination. ~

"I felt uncomfortable and was a bit surprised when I first went to this vet, but then I came to accept it as normal, but now I am wondering if I shouldn't be so trusting."

Thats… that. It is in fact weird that the Vet is unable to do an exam or a vaccine with you in the room. This does not happen in pediatric office or pediatrist or dentists office so it won't be happening in my vets either. My dogs not there for a bonding visit. I also would find a vet with more confidence in themselves.


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## Freestep

Seer said:


> "I felt uncomfortable and was a bit surprised when I first went to this vet, but then I came to accept it as normal, but now I am wondering if I shouldn't be so trusting."


 :headbang:

You should be able to trust your vet. If you can't trust your vet, find a vet you can trust, and let them handle things the way they need to in a professional manner. If they need to take the dog to the treatment room for a procedure, there's usually a reason, and it's not so they can abuse your dog while you aren't looking. 

This is a pet peeve of mine because I take dogs away from their owners several times a day, every day, and the owners just have to trust in me and be okay with it. The vast majority of my clients are fine with this, but every once in a while I get the odd person that doesn't want to leave their dog. I don't know what they think I'm going to do while they are gone that I wouldn't do with them standing right there, but *most* dogs are a lot better behaved when their owner is not present. I know it seems counterintuitive, but it's true in most cases. 

It really bothers me when people don't trust me with their animals. It's kind of insulting, actually. I've been in business over 20 years and if I was doing something bad to people's dogs, I don't think my business would last very long. If you don't feel you can trust me, don't bring your dog to me. If you simply don't trust *anybody*, I can understand that, but your dog still needs to be groomed, so you can either learn to do it yourself or try to find a groomer that will allow you to stay with your dog for the entire process. Some groomers are okay with that, but I really need my entire focus to be on the dog, and not on an anxious owner with trust issues. I can work with anxious, fearful dogs all day long, but anxious, fearful owners make me nervous.


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## Germanshepherdlova

I don't think anybody should just expect people to trust them. Why should it matter if the owner wants to observe? After observing a couple times it would probably be easy to determine if the person is worthy of trust or not. Trust is earned.


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## Castlemaid

I trust my vet(s) - I wonder about some of the vet techs though. One hit a puppy I had on the nose for mouthing her hand - was very upset about that. I believe in redirecting for mouthing, and nobody has a right to hit my dog!!! Another time I wanted to take Keeta's prong collar off and the vet tech, genuinely wanting to be helpful, jumped in and said "I'll do it!" and tried to pull the prong collar off over Keeta's head, like you would a choke chain! The prong collar was because Keeta is dog-reactive, but very safe with people, so she just sat there her eyes bulging, making choking noises as the young lady still tried to pull this thing off her. I quickly moved in and took over, showed her how to undo the links to take the collar off. She had never seen a prong before, it was new to her. Well, don't just assume you know how a collar works and choke my dog! ASK!!! I'd be happy to show you! 

I've never had any problems in being allowed to stay for a procedure if I asked. Something major, where I have to leave my dog, (like a spay, minor surgery), I have no issues with trusting the clinic I use. 

The vet I use now has actually requested that I stay and help out with some procedures with Gryff - like stitches - because she saw how Gryff was completely following my lead and was calmer and more trusting with me there.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I don't think anybody should just expect people to trust them. Why should it matter if the owner wants to observe? After observing a couple times it would probably be easy to determine if the person is worthy of trust or not. Trust is earned.


 When you're a professional, trust has to be established through word of mouth, how long the person has been in business, education, licensing, positive reviews, etc. Of course you don't have to trust just *anyone*, but to some degree, you have to extend trust to professionals, from doctors to plumbers to cooks at a restaurant, or else you could never get anything done--especially if you don't know the first thing about what the professional does. 

For example, what good would it do me to stand and watch my mechanic work? I know nothing about cars, and wouldn't have the first clue whether he was doing something right or wrong. If he's a cheat, a liar, or a thief, I doubt he'd be in business very long. I have better things to do than stand there and distrustfully eyeball my mechanic, plumber, or veterinarian while they're trying to do their jobs. And most restaurants won't let you back to the kitchen to watch your food being prepared.

People drop their children off at daycare every day and go to work for 8 hours. You'd think that they would be okay with letting their dog out of their sight for a few minutes. 

I used to have a client who insisted on coming to pick her dog up early, and half the time, I'd still be working on the dog. The dog was a frail, blind, senile old Poodle and I had to be VERY careful with her. The owner, also an elderly woman, would insist on talking to me as I was trying to finish her dog, and her voice was very soft and quiet and I'd be straining to hear her while trying to keep the dog still (when a dog's owner shows up while they're still on the table, they get excited and antsy, even blind old dogs). The owner was asking me something, and as I looked up trying to figure out what she was saying, the old Poodle took the opportunity to step off the table and fall into space. Fortunately I caught her and she wasn't hurt, but that just solidified my policy that owners should NOT be there while I'm working on a dog. It's too distracting for both dog and groomer. And can be downright unsafe.

So you ask "why should it matter if the owner wants to observe?" That's one reason why it matters. I could go on. The bottom line is this: if you don't trust just *anyone*, I understand that. But if you can't trust me, don't bring your dog to me. Simple as that. Find a mobile groomer that comes to your home, or go to PetSmart where the groomers are made to work in a fishbowl. You have options. I choose the option that feels the most safe and comfortable for me and for the animals in my care. If that makes YOU uncomfortable, I have no problem referring you elsewhere. I've made exceptions in the past, and might do so again in the right circumstance. But if the client is simply paranoid and distrustful, it's not the kind of person I like to do business with. There's a reason I work with dogs and not people.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> When you're a professional, trust has to be established through word of mouth, how long the person has been in business, education, licensing, positive reviews, etc. Of course you don't have to trust just *anyone*, but to some degree, you have to extend trust to professionals, from doctors to plumbers to cooks at a restaurant, or else you could never get anything done--especially if you don't know the first thing about what the professional does.
> 
> For example, what good would it do me to stand and watch my mechanic work? I know nothing about cars, and wouldn't have the first clue whether he was doing something right or wrong. If he's a cheat, a liar, or a thief, I doubt he'd be in business very long. I have better things to do than stand there and distrustfully eyeball my mechanic, plumber, or veterinarian while they're trying to do their jobs. And most restaurants won't let you back to the kitchen to watch your food being prepared.
> 
> People drop their children off at daycare every day and go to work for 8 hours. You'd think that they would be okay with letting their dog out of their sight for a few minutes.
> 
> I used to have a client who insisted on coming to pick her dog up early, and half the time, I'd still be working on the dog. The dog was a frail, blind, senile old Poodle and I had to be VERY careful with her. The owner, also an elderly woman, would insist on talking to me as I was trying to finish her dog, and her voice was very soft and quiet and I'd be straining to hear her while trying to keep the dog still (when a dog's owner shows up while they're still on the table, they get excited and antsy, even blind old dogs). The owner was asking me something, and as I looked up trying to figure out what she was saying, the old Poodle took the opportunity to step off the table and fall into space. Fortunately I caught her and she wasn't hurt, but that just solidified my policy that owners should NOT be there while I'm working on a dog. It's too distracting for both dog and groomer. And can be downright unsafe.
> 
> So you ask "why should it matter if the owner wants to observe?" That's one reason why it matters. I could go on. The bottom line is this: if you don't trust just *anyone*, I understand that. But if you can't trust me, don't bring your dog to me. Simple as that. Find a mobile groomer that comes to your home, or go to PetSmart where the groomers are made to work in a fishbowl. You have options. I choose the option that feels the most safe and comfortable for me and for the animals in my care. If that makes YOU uncomfortable, I have no problem referring you elsewhere. I've made exceptions in the past, and might do so again in the right circumstance. But if the client is simply paranoid and distrustful, it's not the kind of person I like to do business with. There's a reason I work with dogs and not people.


You make a good case. BUT…...

Once my dogs paw was injured at a Vets office because he didn't want to go back with them and they were dragging him with his prong on (ouch) his paw caught under the door and they kept yanking him-I went over and put a stop to this and saw his nail bleeding. Now he distrusts Vets even more, and I can't say I felt good about the experience. I guess that's why I'm distrustful. Way I see it, if my dog feels that strongly about not going back with the vet-I'm going to side with my dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Castlemaid said:


> I trust my vet(s) - I wonder about some of the vet techs though. One hit a puppy I had on the nose for mouthing her hand - was very upset about that. I believe in redirecting for mouthing, and nobody has a right to hit my dog!!! Another time I wanted to take Keeta's prong collar off and the vet tech, genuinely wanting to be helpful, jumped in and said "I'll do it!" and tried to pull the prong collar off over Keeta's head, like you would a choke chain! The prong collar was because Keeta is dog-reactive, but very safe with people, so she just sat there her eyes bulging, making choking noises as the young lady still tried to pull this thing off her. I quickly moved in and took over, showed her how to undo the links to take the collar off. She had never seen a prong before, it was new to her. Well, don't just assume you know how a collar works and choke my dog! ASK!!! I'd be happy to show you!
> 
> I've never had any problems in being allowed to stay for a procedure if I asked. Something major, where I have to leave my dog, (like a spay, minor surgery), I have no issues with trusting the clinic I use.
> 
> The vet I use now has actually requested that I stay and help out with some procedures with Gryff - like stitches - because she saw how Gryff was completely following my lead and was calmer and more trusting with me there.


Wow…..this is why I'm distrustful-you never know until you know the employees and this takes time. Not just trust a person because of their title.


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## gsdsar

Yeah. I would not take kindly to some stranger hitting my dog. I would have lost it. And I am a Vet Tech, and a dang good one. That kind of behavior is fireable in my practice. 




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## onyx'girl

It isn't because I don't trust the vet or techs with one of my dogs, but I don't want them to set her up for a bite due to careless handling. 
She is very aggressive(fear based) and fights sedation as well as any handling by the vet and staff. I am the one that will hold her and/if she needs surgery, the staff is ok with me being the one to deal with her as she is being sedated.
Even muzzled, she fights and throws fits. There is one tech there that I use exclusively. He trusts me and I trust him, it makes the vetting go much smoother and quickly.
My vet tries to keep all procedures with Onyx to a minimum because she understands her issues. 
Some dogs need way more control than techs are use to dealing with. 
And I know, most dogs will act worse with their owner around and give in easier when removed from the owner. It doesn't work in Onyx's case.


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## Castlemaid

I changed clinics after a few incidents like the ones I described - very happy with the new clinic I went to - pricier, but much more professional, and more respectful of my wishes.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Once my dogs paw was injured at a Vets office because he didn't want to go back with them and they were dragging him with his prong on (ouch) his paw caught under the door and they kept yanking him-I went over and put a stop to this and saw his nail bleeding. Now he distrusts Vets even more, and I can't say I felt good about the experience. I guess that's why I'm distrustful. Way I see it, if my dog feels that strongly about not going back with the vet-I'm going to side with my dog.


 Your dog felt strongly about being taken away from you. Lots of dogs are that way regardless of where they are. The fact that his paw got stuck under the door was an accident, caused by the dog trying to brace himself.

Lots of dogs don't like to be bathed, including some of my own. If they know a bath is imminent, they will often balk, but it doesn't mean something horrible is about to happen (except for the bath, of course  ). Just because your dog is scared, recalcitrant, or nervous, doesn't necessarily mean that there is a "side" to take. If your dog is going to the vet, obviously there is a reason, and the vet is on the same "side" you are--getting your dog well. If the dog needs to go back to the treatment room, there is usually a reason, and it's not to scare or hurt your dog, it's to help him. So help your vet help your dog by being on the same "side".

In fact, if your dog is acting nervous and balking, the best thing to do is walk out of the room. 99.9% of the time, once the owner is gone, the dog will stop resisting immediately, and willingly follow whomever is holding the leash. I know it sounds crazy to most people, but you have to trust me on this... I do it every day and very rarely do I have a problem once the owner leaves. 

Just for future reference. If your dog must be "dragged" away from you, simply remove yourself from the dog's sight, and the problem should resolve itself.


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## gsdsar

onyx'girl said:


> It isn't because I don't trust the vet or techs with one of my dogs, but I don't want them to set her up for a bite due to careless handling.
> She is very aggressive(fear based) and fights sedation as well as any handling by the vet and staff. I am the one that will hold her and/if she needs surgery, the staff is ok with me being the one to deal with her as she is being sedated.
> Even muzzled, she fights and throws fits. There is one tech there that I use exclusively. He trusts me and I trust him, it makes the vetting go much smoother and quickly.
> My vet tries to keep all procedures with Onyx to a minimum because she understands her issues.
> Some dogs need way more control than techs are use to dealing with.
> And I know, most dogs will act worse with their owner around and give in easier when removed from the owner. It doesn't work in Onyx's case.


In some cases, you are right. We have a GSD that comes to us that will inexplicably get aggressive. His owner is someone with loads of GSD experience, and a good friend if mine. If we have to sedate him, for neuter, dental, radiographs, we do it in the room, with her or me holding him. 

If she can't wait for him to wake up, I get him out if kennel and take him to her, or she comes back and gets him. But, I am the only one on the clinic that handles the dog besides her. Because she and the Vets trust me. And believe you me, if he is getting wound up, all I have to say is " Doc, back up " and they do without question. But because of this trust I can say, the dog has NEVER gotten out if hand. In fact, he is starting to like us. Gave his vet a kiss the last time he was in, through the muzzle of course. 


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> When you're a professional, trust has to be established through word of mouth, how long the person has been in business, education, licensing, positive reviews, etc. Of course you don't have to trust just *anyone*, but to some degree, you have to extend trust to professionals, from doctors to plumbers to cooks at a restaurant, or else you could never get anything done--especially if you don't know the first thing about what the professional does.
> 
> For example, what good would it do me to stand and watch my mechanic work? I know nothing about cars, and wouldn't have the first clue whether he was doing something right or wrong. If he's a cheat, a liar, or a thief, I doubt he'd be in business very long. I have better things to do than stand there and distrustfully eyeball my mechanic, plumber, or veterinarian while they're trying to do their jobs. And most restaurants won't let you back to the kitchen to watch your food being prepared.
> 
> People drop their children off at daycare every day and go to work for 8 hours. You'd think that they would be okay with letting their dog out of their sight for a few minutes.
> 
> I used to have a client who insisted on coming to pick her dog up early, and half the time, I'd still be working on the dog. The dog was a frail, blind, senile old Poodle and I had to be VERY careful with her. The owner, also an elderly woman, would insist on talking to me as I was trying to finish her dog, and her voice was very soft and quiet and I'd be straining to hear her while trying to keep the dog still (when a dog's owner shows up while they're still on the table, they get excited and antsy, even blind old dogs). The owner was asking me something, and as I looked up trying to figure out what she was saying, the old Poodle took the opportunity to step off the table and fall into space. Fortunately I caught her and she wasn't hurt, but that just solidified my policy that owners should NOT be there while I'm working on a dog. It's too distracting for both dog and groomer. And can be downright unsafe.
> 
> So you ask "why should it matter if the owner wants to observe?" That's one reason why it matters. I could go on. The bottom line is this: if you don't trust just *anyone*, I understand that. But if you can't trust me, don't bring your dog to me. Simple as that. Find a mobile groomer that comes to your home, or go to PetSmart where the groomers are made to work in a fishbowl. You have options. I choose the option that feels the most safe and comfortable for me and for the animals in my care. If that makes YOU uncomfortable, I have no problem referring you elsewhere. I've made exceptions in the past, and might do so again in the right circumstance. But if the client is simply paranoid and distrustful, it's not the kind of person I like to do business with. There's a reason I work with dogs and not people.


Professionals don't get a free pass, sorry. My mom would be dead right now if we just trusted her doctor to order the proper tests. This is a doctor who was in business for 20+ years. Sorry, she would have died of colon cancer if my brother and I did not do a frontal assault on her and then my dad finally TOLD the doctor that they both needed colonoscopies -- they were 60 and 62 at the time and never had one. Dad had polyps, mom had colon cancer which had already gone through the wall and into a couple of lymphnodes. She had been complaining to this doctor about bleeding and fatigue for over a year. So, we should just trust professionals. 

There is a little old lady in her nineties that has an ancient car with mega miles on it, and packs some heat in the glove box. They did a little sixty-minute-type section on her -- something like the little old lady from passadena. Well, they asked her how she keeps the car running. She says that she went into the manual and found ALL the grease and lube spots and did them herself every so many miles. Then when she finally gave that up, she went back in to the garage and watched while the mechanic greased every spot. That was one of the things she said. A friend of mine works for a big auto company, and he says you will never believe how many engines go kaput because the oil-change people forgot to put the oil in. Professionals do not get a free pass.

My sister has a couple of little girls. She hired a nanny and worked out of her home, where she can hear everything going on until the kids were old enough to talk and tell her what went on today. At that point, when they were two or so, she put them in day care. But not before they could speak. Other people do put babies in day care before hand, and we do what we have to do, and sometimes we do get burned. If the kid can't speak, you have to look at other signs that things are not acceptable. You do not just trust blindly that professionals are perfect. Because perfect is in heaven. 

The dentist, the vet, the mechanic, the contractor -- they all work closely with me to help me make the right decisions for what I am responsible for. It is up to me to make the choices. And if they do the wrong thing, I am the one that ultimately is effected by it. 

I had Odie at the vet giving blood yesterday. They had a gal holding her and the other set to draw the blood. So I told Odie, "and she promises to only poke you once." Well, it didn't work, she got poked a couple of times. But I want to know if the dog has to go through a bunch of needle sticks or if the whole procedure was generally easy. And, I think that vet techs may be a little more mindful of the critter (who can't speak for himself) if the owner is right there watching what is going on. 

As for groomers, well... Ok, I already told that story. I do hand my dogs over to complete strangers to be bathed and groomed. I have had a dog dropped off the table with a noose around his neck when the groomer went to answer the phone. She did not tell me either, she just said my dog was scared. BS. I was watching through the window, trying to keep out of view of the dog, so she didn't know I saw the whole thing. I saw the dog let people of all sorts walk back and forth, some of them toting dogs in their hands, many of them close enough for her to clip them if she was terrified, some of them customers -- if she was so scared, would you put her where people/customers are walking by her? Whatever. I saw my dog hanging there and two other groomers rush over to lift her onto the table again. I called the woman on it, after her comment and said, maybe she is scared because you dropped her off the table. Her answer was, "she jumped." Lady, if you tie my dog by the neck on a raised table, then you don't give her the opportunity to jump off it! The manager of the place backed up her employee and I haven't been back there. I will never hand my dog off to someone who is in a crappy mood again though.

I'm a professional, and I really don't expect people to take what I say about a thing as gospel either. And if someone complains about the design of something electrical or mechanical, I don't take it as a personal attack on me because I am an engineer and any attack on any engineering is somehow an insult -- that is crazy. But it seems to abound in the medical field.

As for the medical field. If my sister would have just sat back and trusted them, Gwennie would be dead. She would have died when they tried to give her the wrong amount of a substance. She would have died when my sister found her not breathing and her oxygen down to 20% and her nurse on break, she would have died if she listened to them when two separate times they told her she should sign a DNR on her. The kid is sharp as a tack, smarter than her older sister, and has just a bit of tightening in her foot. She speaks better than her older sister. She dances. She swims. she is beautiful. And she would not be alive if it were NOT for those professionals and that establishment and the doctors, and the technology. But that doesn't mean we just sit back and trust passively. 

My brother in law is dead. He died at age 31, because the pharmacy had a few digits wrong in his prescription. By the time the error was found, he was to far gone to survive. He may have had a few more years with us had that not happened. We cannot always find errors that professionals make, but professionals are very unprofessional when they feel insulted because people question, worry, want to make sure before letting someone do something.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> Your dog felt strongly about being taken away from you. Lots of dogs are that way regardless of where they are. The fact that his paw got stuck under the door was an accident, caused by the dog trying to brace himself.
> 
> Lots of dogs don't like to be bathed, including some of my own. If they know a bath is imminent, they will often balk, but it doesn't mean something horrible is about to happen (except for the bath, of course  ). Just because your dog is scared, recalcitrant, or nervous, doesn't necessarily mean that there is a "side" to take. If your dog is going to the vet, obviously there is a reason, and the vet is on the same "side" you are--getting your dog well. If the dog needs to go back to the treatment room, there is usually a reason, and it's not to scare or hurt your dog, it's to help him. So help your vet help your dog by being on the same "side".
> 
> In fact, if your dog is acting nervous and balking, the best thing to do is walk out of the room. 99.9% of the time, once the owner is gone, the dog will stop resisting immediately, and willingly follow whomever is holding the leash. I know it sounds crazy to most people, but you have to trust me on this... I do it every day and very rarely do I have a problem once the owner leaves.
> 
> Just for future reference. If your dog must be "dragged" away from you, simply remove yourself from the dog's sight, and the problem should resolve itself.


IDK-I spoke to the Vet and told them that I would be coming back with him from now on and she permitted me to do so. It's worked out perfectly. I walk him to where they want him-tell him to get on the scale, stand up, lay down or whatever else they want him to do. My dog is happy, and I am happy so it works for us.


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## Freestep

You can find a scary story about any type of profession. Doctors that remove the wrong leg, pharmacists that give the wrong dosage, etc. etc. etc. Human beings make mistakes, yes, and there are some bad "professionals" out there that give everyone a bad name. But you simply can't go through life being suspicious of everyone and everything--you'll drive yourself crazy.



selzer said:


> We cannot always find errors that professionals make, but professionals are very unprofessional when they feel insulted because people question, worry, want to make sure before letting someone do something.


 Don't get me wrong--I understand when people worry, I expect them to ask questions, and to check me out to make sure I'm legit. It's hard to leave your dog, your kid, or allow a doctor to do surgery on you--believe me, I know--that's why I say, do your research, ask around, choose your professionals wisely, and don't leave your dog/child/car if you're not comfortable doing so. If you don't trust me, find someone else you can trust, and more power to you. I don't take offense to THAT.

What bothers me is when people jump to conclusions. Like if their dog is acting nervous in the lobby because he knows his bath or vet visit is imminent, they jump to the conclusion that the dog must be getting abused.  Yeah, the glamour, prestige and pay is so great that even people who hate animals want to become pet professionals. NOT.

I've worked with vets and techs and other groomers, my sister is a vet, and believe me, the amount of crap they have to put up with is astonishing--the ONLY way anyone could stay in such a profession very long is for the love of animals and a passion to help them. There is just no other way anyone will last in this business. So to insinuate that a longtime pet professional would willfully and knowingly do something to hurt an animal, yeah, it's insulting. I just have to ask, why? What possible benefit or advantage could be gained by hurting an animal? 

Irrespective of how I probably seem online, I must seem a very comforting and trustworthy person or have good vibes in real life, because I very seldom have a problem with people trusting me. Mostly this is about vets, and I somehow feel the need to defend them against this largely anti-vet forum. Maybe I've just been extremely fortunate, but all the vets and staff I have had the pleasure of working with have been wonderful, caring, sensitive people who truly had a love for animals and wanted the best for them. Some aren't so good with people, and that might be part of the problem. But having seen veterinary medicine from the inside, I can say I've had nothing but positive experiences, and it hurts me to think of these people being slammed, blamed, and not even given the benefit of the doubt.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> Irrespective of how I probably seem online, I must seem a very comforting and trustworthy person or have good vibes in real life, because I very seldom have a problem with people trusting me. Mostly this is about vets, and I somehow feel the need to defend them against this largely anti-vet forum. Maybe I've just been extremely fortunate, but all the vets and staff I have had the pleasure of working with have been wonderful, caring, sensitive people who truly had a love for animals and wanted the best for them. Some aren't so good with people, and that might be part of the problem. But having seen veterinary medicine from the inside, I can say I've had nothing but positive experiences, and it hurts me to think of these people being slammed, blamed, and not even given the benefit of the doubt.


Wanting trust to be earned first makes this an anti-vet forum????


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## Lilie

I want to be involved in my dog(s) treatment because I know my dog(s). I want to make sure they behave while being treated. If my dog has to have a procedure done, such as surgery, then I don't want to be there. I'll fall out on the floor, undoubtedly. And I've never asked to be included, nor invited. 

It has nothing to do with trust for me. It just seems like the right thing for me to do when it comes to my animals.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Wanting trust to be earned first makes this an anti-vet forum????


 Vets have to go through 8 years of school, pass board exams, and do a residency of sorts. What more should they have to do to "earn" your trust? 

And yes, I see more vet-bashing on this board than anyplace else. Ask the vets who are members why they rarely post.


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## Seer

Freestep said:


> Vets have to go through 8 years of school, pass board exams, and do a residency of sorts. What more should they have to do to "earn" your trust?
> 
> Anyone remember the time the guy was screaming trust me trust me right before they........... I always keep an eye on that one.
> 
> Freestep theres more to being a Vet then them there book skills.... Theres also bedside manner and the ability to adapt to make your customer happy and there experience pleasant as can be. Sure, thats not in books they study. But the most successful gardener's also follows this rule. The point is, needs where not meet, so move on to the one who can adapt.
> 
> I'm fairly certain the confidence in the doctor to administer a vaccine after 8 years and board exams was not in question. I personally have never heard of Vet having a behind close door policy for a vaccination or exam. I can see no good reason for this and would also find a more transparent Vet. Trust ala caca.... that makes no sense to me.


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## Freestep

Seer said:


> Freestep theres more to being a Vet then them there book skills.... Theres also bedside manner and the ability to adapt to make your customer happy and there experience pleasant as can be. Sure, thats not in books they study.


 They do learn medical ethics and basic client relations, but you're right, you can't "teach" bedside manner or personality. I have known doctors who were very skilled but had a terrible bedside manner... doesn't mean I don't trust in their skills.



> I personally have never heard of Vet having a behind close door policy for a vaccination or exam.


 Neither have I. I don't think that's what we're talking about.


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## Gretchen

I've never asked, but I think our vet would allow it.
However, Molly gets protective with me in the room. She is much calmer and responsive to the vet and techs when they take her away from me. I see the techs a lot out in the community and they know us and seem to like us. Because of this, I'm pretty trusting of the care my dogs receives when she is in "the other room".


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## Germanshepherdlova

In any profession it is important to know how to relate to customers. If the attitude is one such as if you don't trust me instantly then go elsewhere…..then I would gladly take my dogs elsewhere. Good thing my Vet didn't respond that way and listened to me and modified her policy to allow me to stay with my dog at all times.


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## pyratemom

I do trust my vet 100% and do believe he has my dog's best interest in mind. That being said, I do not trust that the vet techs know what to do with my dog. She is high drive and does not like being pushed or forced. My vet lets me hold her and we do the vaccinations and blood draws when needed together. She will walk onto the scale and stand there to be weighed. She just does not like being restrained by a person she doesn't know well. Actually I don't restrain her because when I'm in the room she will just stand there for shots and exams. She will roll over for him to check for allergy reactions on her belly skin. Then when she stands up she always gives him a kiss. I have stayed in the room when one of my cats was being neutered just to witness the operation but when they did Raina, I did not stay past the anesthesia part. Once she was relaxed and asleep I slipped out because I didn't want to stay for the operation part, although they would have let me had I gowned up. If I didn't trust my vet to do the best for my dog I would find another vet.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> In any profession it is important to know how to relate to customers. If the attitude is one such as if you don't trust me instantly then go elsewhere…..then I would gladly take my dogs elsewhere. Good thing my Vet didn't respond that way and listened to me and modified her policy to allow me to stay with my dog at all times.


 I'm not saying "instantly". I keep saying, do your research, ask around, get referrals, and if you go in and after talking to everyone, you still feel uncomfortable, then don't waste your time or theirs being a distrustful and suspicious client--it doesn't do anyone any good. Find somewhere you DO feel comfortable, with people you DO trust, where you don't have to experience anxiety or dread.

All I'm saying is, you should not leave your pet anywhere if you don't feel comfortable with it. You should find somewhere you DO feel comfortable. I'm a bit flummoxed as to why this concept is hard to understand.

When I get a new client on the phone who seems nervous and concerned about leaving their pet, or has had bad experiences in the past, I tell them to pop in, check out the place, bring your dog in for a cookie, talk to me about your dog. I show them around, tell them my procedures and policies, and they can make an appointment if they feel comfortable. If they still don't feel comfortable, no way am I going to try to talk them into something they aren't comfortable with. I can recommend a mobile groomer that comes to their home, or a groomer that will allow them to stay while their dog is being groomed. It's not like I'm saying "My way or the highway, buddy!" I do everything I can to be forthright, honest, and compassionate. I've never had a client turn around and walk out after coming in and talking to me. I guess that's where "bedside manner" comes in.

So, I'm not saying you should just trust *anyone*. I'm actually saying the opposite of that. Don't trust anyone unless you feel comfortable, and don't go to anyone you don't feel you can trust. Find someone you CAN trust. Whether it's me, or the other groomer down the street, or a mobile groomer, all that matters to me is that the client and the dog are happy with whatever arrangements they've made. I don't worry about losing business. The bottom line is the dog's well-being, and I know that if the owner is fearful, anxious, and distrustful, that's going to travel down the leash, and it's going to affect my own state of mind as well.

If you're the kind of person that simply can't trust anyone no matter what they say or do... then I feel for you. It sucks to go through life that way. But you're not the kind of person *I* feel comfortable doing business with. I don't mind working with nervous, fearful pets. Nervous, fearful people make me nervous and fearful, and that's not the kind of energy I want or need in my life. Thankfully, I'm in a position where I can pick and choose the people I do business with... vets often don't have that luxury. 

I've seen wacko clients become abusive with vets and their staff. My sister tells stories at dinner that make my teeth grind. Like me, she's been an animal lover all her life and got into veterinary medicine because she loves animals. To hear of people yelling at her, blaming her, second-guessing her (because they know more than she does?) telling her she doesn't care, or generally giving her grief over things she has no control over, well, it makes me mad. She's my baby sister and I'm somewhat protective of her still. She works at the emergency vet and they have to take all comers.

She still loves animals and wants to help them, but I can see how the people are hurting her, making her second-guess herself and her career choice. To some extent, it's something she has to get used to and learn to deal with, but as a first year vet it's been really tough for her at times.

Sorry, this turned into a long rant.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Depends on the vet, and depends on the dog. My last 2 dogs LOVED my vet, wanted to go with her when they heard her voice outside the room, and I trust the vet techs there, too--she has a very good staff. Other vets, I would never trust them alone with my dogs, for their safety as well as the dogs' safety (had a BAD experience once with an abusive vet). That being said, my most recent canine, a GSD breeding bitch who was rehomed with me, has not met my veterinarian yet. She (Jade, the dog) is questionable. She is fine with my sister and me, but I have seen her be VERY aggressive toward a visitor--my sister has a case manager who comes once a month, and Jade, even crated, scared the woman almost to tears, although the woman gets along fine with Orick, my other rescue GSD. I want to work with Jade on this issue, but it will have to be with the help of a 'visitor' who is not intimidated by her. I suspect she will be much less territorial going to the vet's office, and may be fine, actually. But I will err on the cautious side and request that I be present. 

On the other hand, untrained territorial and protective dogs are often well behaved *away *from their owners at the vet's office. When they are taken into another room, they often relax, no longer have to worry about protecting their owner.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> I'm not saying "instantly". I keep saying, do your research, ask around, get referrals, and if you go in and after talking to everyone, you still feel uncomfortable, then don't waste your time or theirs being a distrustful and suspicious client--it doesn't do anyone any good. Find somewhere you DO feel comfortable, with people you DO trust, where you don't have to experience anxiety or dread.
> 
> All I'm saying is, you should not leave your pet anywhere if you don't feel comfortable with it. You should find somewhere you DO feel comfortable. I'm a bit flummoxed as to why this concept is hard to understand.
> 
> When I get a new client on the phone who seems nervous and concerned about leaving their pet, or has had bad experiences in the past, I tell them to pop in, check out the place, bring your dog in for a cookie, talk to me about your dog. I show them around, tell them my procedures and policies, and they can make an appointment if they feel comfortable. If they still don't feel comfortable, no way am I going to try to talk them into something they aren't comfortable with. I can recommend a mobile groomer that comes to their home, or a groomer that will allow them to stay while their dog is being groomed. It's not like I'm saying "My way or the highway, buddy!" I do everything I can to be forthright, honest, and compassionate. I've never had a client turn around and walk out after coming in and talking to me. I guess that's where "bedside manner" comes in.
> 
> So, I'm not saying you should just trust *anyone*. I'm actually saying the opposite of that. Don't trust anyone unless you feel comfortable, and don't go to anyone you don't feel you can trust. Find someone you CAN trust. Whether it's me, or the other groomer down the street, or a mobile groomer, all that matters to me is that the client and the dog are happy with whatever arrangements they've made. I don't worry about losing business. The bottom line is the dog's well-being, and I know that if the owner is fearful, anxious, and distrustful, that's going to travel down the leash, and it's going to affect my own state of mind as well.
> 
> If you're the kind of person that simply can't trust anyone no matter what they say or do... then I feel for you. It sucks to go through life that way. But you're not the kind of person *I* feel comfortable doing business with. I don't mind working with nervous, fearful pets. Nervous, fearful people make me nervous and fearful, and that's not the kind of energy I want or need in my life. Thankfully, I'm in a position where I can pick and choose the people I do business with... vets often don't have that luxury.
> 
> I've seen wacko clients become abusive with vets and their staff. My sister tells stories at dinner that make my teeth grind. Like me, she's been an animal lover all her life and got into veterinary medicine because she loves animals. To hear of people yelling at her, blaming her, second-guessing her (because they know more than she does?) telling her she doesn't care, or generally giving her grief over things she has no control over, well, it makes me mad. She's my baby sister and I'm somewhat protective of her still. She works at the emergency vet and they have to take all comers.
> 
> She still loves animals and wants to help them, but I can see how the people are hurting her, making her second-guess herself and her career choice. To some extent, it's something she has to get used to and learn to deal with, but as a first year vet it's been really tough for her at times.
> 
> Sorry, this turned into a long rant.


I'm not a nervous fearful person, I live in reality. My reality is that my dog is nervous and fearful and prefers for me to stay with him. Furthermore there are many people that I trust-but they have earned it. And if there is nothing to hide, then having me observe especially if MY DOG feels better with me there, I feel is a reasonable accommodation.

I do see your point, I don't think its right for people to verbally abuse or demean others. You are obviously an animal lover and would never harm one. But if my dog didn't want to stay with you-I'd not allow him to be dragged and pulled from me and further agitate his fearful mind-If you wouldn't permit me to stay-even if I promised to not disturb you with idle chatter-I guess I'd have to find a new groomer who was more flexible.


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## Freestep

Germanshepherdlova said:


> But if my dog didn't want to stay with you-I'd not allow him to be dragged and pulled from me and further agitate his fearful mind-If you wouldn't permit me to stay-even if I promised to not disturb you with idle chatter-I guess I'd have to find a new groomer who was more flexible.


 I guess you would. And that's fine, it's your choice. There are other options, I'm not the only groomer in town, and you should go where you are most comfortable. That doesn't offend me at all--it's what I've been saying all along.

But I wouldn't "drag" your dog away from you. If your dog was anxious about being separated from you, and he didn't want to come back with me while you are still there, I'd ask you to leave first. Once a dog sees that his owner is gone, 99.9% of the time he will happily follow me back to wherever we are going. I know it seems counterintuitive and hard to believe, and you don't want to trust my experience in this matter, but I wouldn't lie about this--ask any groomer the same thing--this has been my experience of working with dogs for over 20 years. 

I've groomed many, many dogs with separation anxiety, and dogs that are sensitive and anxious in general, and at the moment I can't remember a single time where I was unable to finish the grooming due to the dog's behavior. Cats, yes. Dogs, no. There have been times where I've suggested they talk to their vet about a tranquilizer or sedative, for pets that are having severe separation anxiety. And I've suggested a mobile groomer for people who simply don't want to leave their pet anywhere, for any amount of time, for any reason.

I've made exceptions to my policies in the past, and might again, if the circumstances were right. One was a police k9, I allowed his handler to stay during the toenail trim (which he was unable to do himself but I had no trouble with). The other was a neurotic old Pekingese mix who actually was calmer with his owner present; it was a method tried and true with other groomers before me, so I trusted his owner's word on it.

So I'm not as "inflexible" as you might think, it's just that I have a system that has worked very well for me for a very long time, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Not trying to brag, but I'm at the point right now where I'm booked solid for the next 6 weeks and I'm thinking I may not be able to take on any more clients. I'm already working 8 hours a day, 6 days a week trying to keep up with demand. So, I guess I'm doing something right? 

I do attend continuing education seminars and am always learning new things, it's part of what keeps my job fresh and exciting. So it's not that I'm unwilling to change. But there has to be a very good reason to change something that has worked so well for so long.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Freestep said:


> I guess you would. And that's fine, it's your choice. There are other options, I'm not the only groomer in town, and you should go where you are most comfortable. That doesn't offend me at all--it's what I've been saying all along.
> 
> But I wouldn't "drag" your dog away from you. If your dog was anxious about being separated from you, and he didn't want to come back with me while you are still there, I'd ask you to leave first. Once a dog sees that his owner is gone, 99.9% of the time he will happily follow me back to wherever we are going. I know it seems counterintuitive and hard to believe, and you don't want to trust my experience in this matter, but I wouldn't lie about this--ask any groomer the same thing--this has been my experience of working with dogs for over 20 years.
> 
> I've groomed many, many dogs with separation anxiety, and dogs that are sensitive and anxious in general, and at the moment I can't remember a single time where I was unable to finish the grooming due to the dog's behavior. Cats, yes. Dogs, no. There have been times where I've suggested they talk to their vet about a tranquilizer or sedative, for pets that are having severe separation anxiety. And I've suggested a mobile groomer for people who simply don't want to leave their pet anywhere, for any amount of time, for any reason.
> 
> I've made exceptions to my policies in the past, and might again, if the circumstances were right. One was a police k9, I allowed his handler to stay during the toenail trim (which he was unable to do himself but I had no trouble with). The other was a neurotic old Pekingese mix who actually was calmer with his owner present; it was a method tried and true with other groomers before me, so I trusted his owner's word on it.
> 
> So I'm not as "inflexible" as you might think, it's just that I have a system that has worked very well for me for a very long time, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Not trying to brag, but I'm at the point right now where I'm booked solid for the next 6 weeks and I'm thinking I may not be able to take on any more clients. I'm already working 8 hours a day, 6 days a week trying to keep up with demand. So, I guess I'm doing something right?
> 
> I do attend continuing education seminars and am always learning new things, it's part of what keeps my job fresh and exciting. So it's not that I'm unwilling to change. But there has to be a very good reason to change something that has worked so well for so long.


I think that's awesome that you are always willing to learn new things, and occasionally make exceptions to meet your clients needs. Glad that your business is doing so well. Best of luck to you.


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## SunCzarina

No, I wouldn't find that acceptable. My males have had to go in the backroom to get blood drawn. Big chickens putting on a show for Mom over the tourniquet. 

The Pocket Panther, though, I will bring her in the vets office in a carrier. Hand her off and sit down to wait for them to do whatever it is they do to her. As far as she knows, I'm the nice lady who gave her cat nip and let her out of the box a few hours later.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> *You can find a scary story about any type of profession. Doctors that remove the wrong leg, pharmacists that give the wrong dosage, etc. etc. etc. Human beings make mistakes, yes, and there are some bad "professionals" out there that give everyone a bad name. * But you simply can't go through life being suspicious of everyone and everything--you'll drive yourself crazy.
> ....
> Irrespective of how I probably seem online, I must seem a very comforting and trustworthy person or have good vibes in real life, because I very seldom have a problem with people trusting me. Mostly this is about vets, and I somehow feel the need to defend them against this largely anti-vet forum. Maybe I've just been extremely fortunate, but all the vets and staff I have had the pleasure of working with have been wonderful, caring, sensitive people who truly had a love for animals and wanted the best for them. Some aren't so good with people, and that might be part of the problem. But having seen veterinary medicine from the inside, I can say I've had nothing but positive experiences, and it hurts me to think of these people being slammed, blamed, and not even given the benefit of the doubt.


Those scary stories I related happened to me or my family. Here's another, brought on by your cut off the wrong leg thing. 

Years ago, I had surgery on my wrist. The doctor was a funny gut -- good sense of humor, etc. When my little sister broke her arm, I took her to the ER, and this dude fixed her arm. So, I kind of knew what he was like. 

So I am waiting FOREVER for my surgery. They had me in there by 7AM, and they gave me the I'm-terrified-juice shortly after, but they didn't come to take me back for surgery until 11AM. So my happy juice was wearing off. This surgeon came to speak to me before the cutting, and I joked with him about drawing a knife on my other wrist with a circle and a slash on it -- 'cause, yeah we have all heard of doctors cutting off the wrong leg. 

He chuckled a little but didn't seem to think it was funny. Great tick off the surgeon BEFORE the surgery.

Anyway, after the fact, I found out, that the surgeon that worked on our church's secretary, where she had some stress fractures in her foot, and the surgeon went in and when she woke up he told her it wasn't as bad as he had thought it was, she told him that was because he worked on the wrong foot -- _that _was this doctor. And only a year or two before my surgery. I didn't know who the doctor was prior, or I never would have joked with the guy like that. How embarrassing!

Surgeons have to go through college and then med school, and then whatever they specialize in, and a residency etc. But they still make mistakes. And sometimes a real rummy gets through all of that. 

I don't think we are anti-vet. We just do not expect the vets to know best about everything all the time. We know that they really do not take a lot of classes on nutrition, and there are hundreds of dog breeds, a breeder who has decades of experience with her breed and lines may have similar knowledge and even better sometimes at knowing what is going on, than a vet. 

A couple of times, I have steered people in a better direction -- toward a better set of vets for the problem. Some vets have an agenda, and if they see an intact female having any problem, they immediately say pyro and emergency spay, and get angry if you question them. I saved a puppy buyer grief, by telling her not to spay and to take the dog over to another clinic I knew of over in her area -- 24 hour clinic, with a lab and ultrasound/x-ray, etc, plus specialists. It was NOT pyro and if they would have done and emergency spay on her bitch, they probably would have made the whole situation a lot worse.

Glad she listened to little old me. They symptoms were not consistent with pyrometra -- either type. And the vet in her ER could not see past pyro when she saw an intact bitch. 

Yes there are some vets that are not necessarily trying to hurt an animal, but because of their own agenda may inadvertently do something that is not in the best interests of that dog. It happens. 

We aren't anti-vet, but too many of us have seen some misdiagnoses and bad choices. We have heard vets tell us things like, "for quality, you really need to feed purina." And we have also asked a vet their opinion on a older dog's weight -- clearly 20-25 pounds over weight, and have that vet say, "oh he's fine." The dog looks like a coffee table. "No, he's a good weight." Well that dog was having trouble getting up and down. I told the owner to take weight off of him. He listened, and the dog is zooming up and down the steps now. But the vet said he was just fine. 

Because we have seen this stuff, first hand, just having a degree from a veterinary school isn't enough. Sorry. 

Most of the time, I want to be there. It is isn't a surgery, even if it is I want to be there, but I understand in the instance of surgery and x-ray. For everything else, I want to be there.


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## BasRouge

I live in France and I'm a vet tech. 

Around here, every surgery, from neutering to bigger stuffs are always made without the owners. It's kinda the rule. There is some exceptions, in certain cases for c-sections(? not sure if you say that for dogs?) where owners can be helpful for taking care of the new borns, furthermore if the vet is alone because in the middle of the night and if the owner is a breeder with knowledge on how things need to be done.

Drawing blood is usually done with the owners. BUT it all depends of the dog AND the owner. Some owners are really too stressed out and if the dog sense it, and of course he will, there is no way he will be in any state of mind to undergo any type of precedure.
In such cases we will have to take the dog to the other room or remove the owner. I totally agree with Freestep when he/she says that 99.9% of these dogs will be 100% better without the owner. I can't really tell you why, maybe because the major source of the stress is removed, maybe because he won't have to make the show, maybe because "we" show him our confidence, maybe because we dont pity him (we know we're doing something for his own good, that it's not painful, that it's a "must be done thing"), maybe because we don't have to take care of the owner and his stress ourselves and are 100% with the dog and what we are doing... I don't know, maybe all of this and more. But it's a fact.

Regarding treating injuries or things like that, people can usually stay if it's not too ugly (I assure you, some injuries are). I have to say, I already saw more than once, people faint by just watching us taking care of minor things... we don't really like that. People can hurt themselves, then we have to leave the dog to take care of the owner and it's not a good situation for anyone.

I myself, didn't stay when my dog was run over and was bleeding badly inside. He had to have his spleen removed and we were not sure he would survived considering the huge amount of blood loss. I stood in a another room, calling friends to have them come over with their dog to make fresh blood transfusion.

It is something when it's a random dog, it's totally different when it's yours. Not that I would not take care of any dogs as if it was mine, but there's a fact, it WAS mine and I didn't feel like looking at him with his belly largely open up, with all that blood coming out in waves; I saw the theatre afterwards and it almost made me throw up when it never happened before. I would have failed my job, failed my co-workers and failed my dog. And if I reacted that way, I do believe that someone with less experience of such a mess, would have stressed out anyone trying desperatly to save him and maybe they would not have been able to do it properly.

I would not hesitate even 1 sec to do the exact same thing if something like that happen to my current dog because I strongly believe this is the best way to help him, just by not beeing in the way.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> We aren't anti-vet, but too many of us have seen some misdiagnoses and bad choices. We have heard vets tell us things like, "for quality, you really need to feed purina." And we have also asked a vet their opinion on a older dog's weight -- clearly 20-25 pounds over weight, and have that vet say, "oh he's fine." The dog looks like a coffee table. "No, he's a good weight."


 This is the one thing that I hear a lot of, that I can't figure out: why vets tell their clients their overweight dogs are "fine". The vets I have personally worked with were sticklers for proper weight, and were always telling people their dogs needed to slim down. But so many of my clients bring their overweight dogs to me and tell me "The vet said his weight is fine", that my cynical side has come to wonder if vets aren't saying that to keep themselves in business. The more overweight the dog is, the more health problems and injuries, thus the more money spent at the vet. Now, I don't really want to believe that, because as I said, my personal experience working with vets is counter to that. The only other thing I can think is that the client is either lying, or the client misunderstood something the vet said and twisted the words into something they wanted to hear.

As far as diet, most US vets will tell you that they don't get much training in nutrition, and that training is sponsored by pet food companies. So if they want to specialize in canine nutrition, they have to seek out continuing education. 



BasRouge said:


> I totally agree with Freestep when he/she says that 99.9% of these dogs will be 100% better without the owner. I can't really tell you why, maybe because the major source of the stress is removed, maybe because he won't have to make the show, maybe because "we" show him our confidence, maybe because we dont pity him (we know we're doing something for his own good, that it's not painful, that it's a "must be done thing"), maybe because we don't have to take care of the owner and his stress ourselves and are 100% with the dog and what we are doing... I don't know, maybe all of this and more. But it's a fact.


 You explained it better than I did! I think it's a combination of all those things. We all know that a person's energy travels down the leash. If the owner is worried, the dog will be worried. If the anxious owner is removed and the dog is surrounded by confident, competent staff who know what they are doing, the dog senses that and will calm down. As any trainer knows, you have to have the right energy, confidence, determination and skill, combined with kindness and compassion, to successfully handle a dog and get him to accept something he doesn't necessarily want to do. Having a nervous owner nearby thinking "Oh, my poor, poor puppy wuppy!!" can effectively derail all that. Let's face it, the average pet owner is not going to be helpful in this situation, and will only be in the way. The owner may be anxious, scared, stressed, upset, distrustful, even angry... not the kind of energy you want in the room when you're trying to save a dog's life. It not only stresses the dog more, but it can stress the staff, and the last thing you want is stressed and distracted staff working on your dog.



> I would have failed my job, failed my co-workers and failed my dog. And if I reacted that way, I do believe that someone with less experience of such a mess, would have stressed out anyone trying desperatly to save him and maybe they would not have been able to do it properly.


 Exactly. It's different when it's YOUR dog.


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## Blanketback

I don't think this forum is anti-vet at all. We all openly discuss things, and some people are more into the holistic than the allopathic. Just because some people are less enthused about conventional treatments, or that some people like to question things, doesn't make this an anti-vet site. I'd say that this site is more pro-vet than anti-vet, when you consider how many of us are using vax, HW prevention, abx, etc.


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## TommyB681

I trust my vet without a doubt. However, I consider myself to have the final call in treatments. I want to be present during examinations because I want to fully understand what is being done


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## wyoung2153

No no no! I would never ever go to a vet like that. It's different if they need to do something in the back,. I understand that.. Titan will go get his ears cleaned or nail clipped, etc.. but nothing routine like vaccines or weight. We weigh him out in the waiting room, they record it and go intot he exam room for everything else.. they even do blood draws while I'm there. I could never just hand him off for something so easy.. it would make me very suspcious. If you ask to stay with you pet do they let you?


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## Serbrider

I put "no way"... but that's not really my full answer.

For basic examination, I want to be there, because I want to know what the vet sees, what his thoughts are AS he's examining them, etc.

For anal gland expression, nail clipping, and blood taking, up to the vet's policy. I do the anal glands and nails myself though, and most blood taking has been done with me in the room. Either with me acting as the "tech" or someone else being there and me standing awkwardly in the corner. Awkwardly because I used to be that tech and it's weird not being the one holding the dog. 

And surgeries, also drop off and go. Anything that requires action and not discussion, I would prefer the vet doesn't have me as a potential distraction.


But for all the basic stuff, I want the discussion and I want the thoughts of the Veterinarian regarding anything that might come up.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> This is the one thing that I hear a lot of, that I can't figure out: why vets tell their clients their overweight dogs are "fine". The vets I have personally worked with were sticklers for proper weight, and were always telling people their dogs needed to slim down. But so many of my clients bring their overweight dogs to me and tell me "The vet said his weight is fine", that my cynical side has come to wonder if vets aren't saying that to keep themselves in business. The more overweight the dog is, the more health problems and injuries, thus the more money spent at the vet. Now, I don't really want to believe that, because as I said, my personal experience working with vets is counter to that. The only other thing I can think is that the client is either lying, or the client misunderstood something the vet said and twisted the words into something they wanted to hear.


The vet that told me this, in _no_ uncertain terms, it was so weird. I had just gotten the dog back, his owner died after having been in bed sick for 2 years. The dog was at his side most of the time. I hope he gave him comfort. But the dog was clearly over-weight and it was not my fault. I TOLD her I just got him back, and that I felt he was seriously over-weight. He weighed 105# and he never was over 80 with me. 

I can see him at 88 or even 90, but not 105. 

I would think vets might tell clients this, because if a client thought the vet felt the dog was overweight, they might not like hearing that and get a negative feeling for the vet/clinic and they lose a patient.

That idea is not nearly as anti-vet as vets thinking that the more over-weight the dog, the more likely the dog will need extra vet care down the road -- that is an anti-vet sentiment because, really, no, for their education and responsibility, they really aren't making that much money, so if they were indeed mercenary, they would be in a more lucrative profession. 

But either way, I have no use for a vet that cannot or will not be honest and correct about a dog's physical condition. They do not have to inform you that your dog is fat, if you aren't asking (though, really, I think they should), but if you do ask, then answering wrongly is unthinkable. And yet, they do. 

No, we aren't anti-vet. When people say, "my dog's gums are pale" or "my puppy seems depressed" we say, GO TO THE VET, NOW. 

When people come on and say their vet encourages spay/neuter at 4 months or 6 months, we might provide another school of thought on that. When someone has a siezure dog and the vet gives them a 5-way, rabies and lepto (yes, this happened to my dad's dog and what followed was 3 days of cluster siezures after not having a siezure in over a year -- not a coincidence) all at the same time, we might suggest that wasn't such a good idea. That is not anti-vet, that is just truth. 
People listen to vets, because of their education and licensing, over concerned friends and family members, even if one is a breed fancier and spends a lot of time on boards, and has done research on the condition their dog has. For this reason, vets need to be held to a higher standard. When they make mistakes, those mistakes are bigger, than your average Joe's. 

Frankly, if I was a vet, I would never let anyone on this site know about it. Not because the site is anti-vet, but because too many people on here would be pestering me for free on-line assessments of a dog I can neither see nor feel. Vet's are due their fee. They go through all that education which they pay for, they have overhead, they have equipment. They often do a LOT of pro-bono work. I would NEVER expect a vet to tell me what to do over the internet. Not only can I not examine their credentials, whether they are an active vet, or whether they have had their license pulled, or if they are a vet at all; but they have no idea whether or not I am competent to assess and communicate my dog's symptoms properly, and follow their instructions. A vet might want to be a part of a dog-forum as a pet owner. A vet that wants to be a part of a dog-forum as an on-line vet, well that just begs too many questions.


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