# adult dog for sale.... Opinions wanted



## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

Hi guys. My message just got erased so.. I might be making this more brief..

I was talking to Bill on recommendations here. He offered two dogs that fit what we were wanting. After talking with his wife he offered that one of his dogs that was gonna be for breeding thought fit our family. 

I wanted opinion on price point and seeing the dog what your thoughts were. The price point is 15k and I think there is photos and videos if you follow the link on his page which I don't think I can link as I'm on my phone. The dog is under his site under females. The last one named voxie. 

I trust you guys as I know some of you have meet him. Have dogs from him. Train with him and some have even seen his dogs work.. So please let me
Hear the good. Bad and anything you can. Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fifteen Thousand dollars????

Why on earth would you ever pay that much for a family dog???


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what are your plans for this 15K dog? Is this for breeding? If so, do you understand lines enough to know how to ascertain good pedigree match? 
IMO, If I had to ask this on a discussion board, I would splurge for the dog. 
and take my lumps(or stupid tax as Dave Ramsey calls it)


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## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

Thank you guys

Why would I pay for a dog? We need a dog as we are and have been in situations requiring a dog trained to protect. be a family member and be well trained. 

Plans. A family dog. No breeding as I'm not a breeder. I need a dog to high standards and this is one of two suggested to us with a 15 Month old and out situations and needs...

If anyone has anything to say on the dog and what you see and think I would love to hear. Also please talk about price if you like but can you include your thoughts behind the opinion. 

From everything I have read on Bill here. He is trustworthy which is pretty hard to find with someone selling you something. If you have a different story please share as every thing I have ever seen on him is excellent. Trustworthy. Honest. Great
To deal with


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I suggested another breeder on your other thread. To pay fifteen thousand dollars for a companion dog(youngster) is a bit extreme. And selling a dog for that price, knowing it is going to be a family pet, not competing or working is something I'd be raising eyebrow at. Fifteen hundred, then yay...go for it! That is a reasonable price for a companion.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Marsha Seck has a 23 month old female whose sire was in 5 or 6 world level competitions, has won nationals....has a lot of obedience on her....

traumwolfen.com - look at Gin - I promise you she is just as nice, has just as much potential and is WAY WAY less than 15 thousand dollars. Her pigment is rich and I have personally met the dog and her temperament is solid. 

Also, could NOT find this dog on OFA's database - maybe just me, so maybe someone else could check and see if she is on there please.



Lee


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I suggested another breeder on your other thread. To pay fifteen thousand dollars for a companion dog(youngster) is a bit extreme. And selling a dog for that price, knowing it is going to be a family pet, not competing or working is something I'd be raising eyebrow at. Fifteen hundred, then yay...go for it! That is a reasonable price for a companion.


If this is a trained protection dog, that's not comparable to a pup/untrained adult.

I've seen plenty of trained protection dogs listed between in the $50-60k range. Of course, no two dogs are the same, and "protection trained" can mean many things, so I've no opinion on the value of the purchase OP is considering.

For me, if I was in a position that required having a dog to protect me, I'd do what I could to change my situation (location/job/environment) for the better/safer. If that's not a viable option, a protection-trained dog can make sense, and getting one that's expertly trained would be much more reliable than doing the training yourself (assuming little GSD experience).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

But this dog was intended to be a breeding female - and never even titled.....so not trained as a personal protection dog.....

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Voxie has been discussed a bit on the board in the past:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...29-reading-pedigree-voxi-vom-geistwasser.html

All sounds like good stuff. 
Is the price supposed to be 1500 (One Thousand Five Hundred), or 15,000? 

15K would be the price of a titled, proven world-level competitor dog. 

1500 would be a very good price for an un-titled adult dog with good hips and elbows and would jump on the offer. 

I just don't understand why Voxie is being sold for such a high price.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

FWIW

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> But this dog was intended to be a breeding female - and never even titled.....so not trained as a personal protection dog.....
> 
> Lee


Ah, then I misunderstood. $15k for an untitled dog - heck no.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> I suggested another breeder on your other thread. To pay fifteen thousand dollars for a companion dog(youngster) is a bit extreme. And selling a dog for that price, knowing it is going to be a family pet, not competing or working is something I'd be raising eyebrow at. Fifteen hundred, then yay...go for it! That is a reasonable price for a companion.


Really???

If the dog is worth 15k, if the owner can get 15k from another buyer, why would they sell it for less if it is going to someone who is going to just make it a pet?

Think about what you are saying. If you wanted a half ton pick up, because you like how big it is, but you don't plan on using it for any type of business or to carry anything that heavy, would you expect the dealer to charge you for a quarter ton pick up?

If you want a gun or golf clubs or a musical instrument favored by professionals who do a job with these things, do you expect the seller to charge you considerably less because all you want to do with it is to play around as a hobby?

C'mon. An article is worth what one will pay for it, it is not dependent on what the buyer is going to do with it, UNLESS that helps the seller. For instance. You think show dogs are pretty, but not worth $2,500 as a puppy. So you say, "l just want a pet." And you get upset that the breeder doesn't drop the price to $1500 for you. Two years later, you get really upset when you find out that the dog was sold for $1500, and you wonder why. Well, the breeder sold it to someone who actively shows their dog. The dog will be bearing the breeder's kennel name and the breeder's information will be out there every time the dog is shown, in the catalog. Selling the dog to a known competitor will promote the breeder's dogs. It makes sense to take a hit on the overall price on the dog, because the breeder knows the buyer has success in showing dogs. 

Going down on the price of a Corvette to the price of a Camaro because all the buyer needs is a Camaro, isn't happening. Shouldn't happen. 

It costs just as much to breed, whelp, and raise a pet as it does a show dog or k9 if they are in the same litter. Not all pups in the litter have the same potential, so dogs with a fault, and sold as pets because of a fault might be discounted. Getting a discount on a dog that has the makings of whatever it is being bred for, no, just because you don't intend to use it for that purpose, no. Sorry.

Is 15k too much? Maybe. Maybe not. I suppose it depends on the pedigree, what has been put into the dog, and why the breeder thinks the dog is worth that much.


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## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

^. Yes thank you! If I didn't get to say that in my other post.. I did look at the other breeders

Glad to hear your thoughts. And appreciate them!!

My reply to everyone is if you were in environments of being unsafe. What would you do? What trained dogs to high levels costs very low. Doesn't the price if in the hands of a honest person dictate the dogs abilities? I can't get a dog that doesn't know how to attack if ever needed. I can't have a dog that would bite my kid. I can't have a dog that I can't walk around outdoors. I can't have a dog that pulls on the leash or makes for a bad time being outdoors. I can't have a dog that is hyper. 

We talked to Bill about a puppy but as he told us and we made up our mind it's not for us is that the drive around a kid would Be pulling on his clothes and shaking him when he goes running around. Which is not something I am interested in. I'm not interested in all the work involved of training a puppy to adulthood. And we wanted a older dog now. Not 2 years from
Now. And yes I trust breeders to know a general temperament the dog will be.. I wanted to exactly know what I was getting in every category of discussion which an adult dog provides.

I am very interested to hear. Is this dog a 15k dog? Yes I don't know much about shepherds which is why I am here. We can discuss if it's not the right dog you think for my needs but I'm wondering if the dog is a 15k dog?

Yes it might sounds crazy. A 15k family dog. But I guess it also sounds crazy to own Porsches and ferraris and lamborghinis to drive to the mall and such. 

This is my thoughts and correct me if I'm wrong. A very low priced dog is not going to have the same temperament. Same soundness. Same protection training and mentality.... ??? If you know a same dog for 5k I'm all ears as who wants to spend 15k on a dog.. But we are in need of something that makes me feel safe as guns are not an option to us..

Bill also talked to us about importing a dog but to his advice you can't fully trust someone overseas and would look in the US if we wanted him to look for an adult dog

My last thing right now is this. If this dog is way over what we need. What dog fits protection work. Obedience. Temperament. Drive.. And what do these dogs weight in at?

Thanks


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ok, well go with your gut. I know plenty of GSD's that are stable, sound and will protect. I had no idea they were worth that. You really need to get out and see more. Selzer may be selling hers for the same price. Have you checked out her breedings/lines? 
Your last paragraph of questions prove to me that you need to learn much more about this breed so you can decipher better.
If you are local to the Kulla kennel, check them out, as well as others, but don't commit to anything until you've seen more. 
Dogs are deterrents, and the handler still needs to work with the dog, bond and train, regardless.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would suggest you consolidate your reasons in one post. You asked for a price point for a family dog in your original post, and the answer to that is 15k is outrageous for that. Later you say you want basically want a PPD? Totally different pricing criteria. And you want a fully trained dog. An adult that you know the temperament of.

Yes, Bill Kulla has an excellent reputation. Nobody is questioning that. At this point, I'm not sure what your question is? You seem fairly set on this already. If you are comfortable with Bill and have that kind of money to spend, buy the dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If your looking for a protection dog titles mean jack squat. Look at the dog, the training and the work.
To pay this much I would want X Rays, full pedigree and a health guarentee first.

Then I would want to see the dog on a suit biting not just on the field but inside buildings, dark rooms, slippery surfaces etc. I would want to see the dog take a lot of pressure and stay in the fight and also make sure its not gun shy. 

I would also assume that the dog has good obedience that can be demonstrated.

Thats the minimum I would look for at that price point. 

Then again you can buy a titled Show Line "protection dog" for 25-50k haha.


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## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

Jax. Yes sorry on a phone and kid running around. My computer is not working right now...

I thought it was said in my first post we needed a dog trained in attack.. Sorry if I didn't. And trained. 

As for the word family dog. Yes. I'm not a sport handler obviously and don't plan on entering world titles and such. I wanted protection and a obedient dog that is calm. We are outside a lot and would interact with other people. Dogs...

My question was looking at the photos and videos. Does the dog demand that price point? He let me know of another dog at 7k but it didn't sound to fully fit our needs or wanting a other dog later and this dog seemed to fit the bill better in what we were wanting...

I am not set on anything as I like to gather as much info as I can as I would like to make an informed decision. Not a impulse decision. I also wanted to hear anything anyone had to say on this dog and anything that came up..

My wife is an excellent reader of dogs looking at photos. She can spot so much looking at a photo. No she's not a breeder or trainer but she is an empath and understands characters. She knew growing up all the good dogs. And the bad ones! And even cats and picked a dog for my dad which he wanted a mellow dog and he got exactly that just from a photo. So she says yes the dog would fit our plans and has the temperament more what we were looking for. But if people tell Me NO, I will sure listen and think accordingly. 

I'm here becuase I know nothing about Germans and nothing about price points and all that goes with talking about working dogs.. We decided it was time to look at a trained dog becuase of circumstances...


Thanks to all who replied. I can't thank everyone as the phone won't let me scroll old posts.....

Keep the info coming please! I would like to know as much as possible and make a decision based upon all factors

Thanks


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

No, not that amount, not for that dog or any dog with such a lack of credentials. $15,000 better be unbelievably trained or titled, winning championships, etc....You're being "had." I swear that's the business to be in if you have no problem charging people that don't know what they're looking at, 5x's what they could find if they knew what they were looking for or had help from those that do know. Listen to Wolfstraum.

If you do get her, which it sounds like your mind is pretty much made up. Don't be one of those people that go to police officers or sport trainers and brag about how much you spent on her, as if it's proof she's a protection dog. I promise they will snicker behind your back. And get a gun, at least you know a gun will work.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If your looking for a protection dog titles mean jack squat. Look at the dog, the training and the work.
> To pay this much I would want X Rays, full pedigree and a health guarentee first.
> 
> Then I would want to see the dog on a suit biting not just on the field but inside buildings, dark rooms, slippery surfaces etc. I would want to see the dog take a lot of pressure and stay in the fight and also make sure its not gun shy.
> ...



^^^This! 
Also if you're looking for the dog to be with the family, I would want to see it with the family. Not just shoved in a kennel.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> ^^^This!
> Also if you're looking for the dog to be with the family, I would want to see it with the family. Not just shoved in a kennel.


My thoughts as well....a dog that has been kenneled yet has no clue about living in a home unsupervised is not going to be the best as far as trustworthy. My dogs live uncrated, and know how to settle without my interference. They also are very aware of the surroundings. 
IF a dog can't be trusted not to be destructive or unsupervised, they are not what I'd consider to be a good candidate for protection(even if they are a bad ass and have a deep bark) Not worth the mess they make.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If your looking for a protection dog titles mean jack squat. Look at the dog, the training and the work.
> To pay this much I would want X Rays, full pedigree and a health guarentee first.
> 
> Then I would want to see the dog on a suit biting not just on the field but inside buildings, dark rooms, slippery surfaces etc. I would want to see the dog take a lot of pressure and stay in the fight and also make sure its not gun shy.
> ...


THIS! But if OP doesn't know what they are looking at would any of this matter? The reason I brought up titles is because I get the impression OP really doesn't know what they are looking for. They know what the "end result" should be, but don't know how to tell if the dog is "real." Agree with Blitz and Jeremy 110%. 

Then again, we always talk about how just because a dog has a title doesn't mean it's able to fight/protect/be social etc...So I retract my statement about titles, "credentials" would be seeing it under situations as Blitz described. You'd have to bring someone who knows what they're looking for. Although it could be really obvious if the dog doesn't engage, is shy, etc....


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

athena14 said:


> As for the word family dog. Yes. I'm not a sport handler obviously and don't plan on entering world titles and such. I wanted protection and a obedient dog that is calm. We are outside a lot and would interact with other people. Dogs...


I'm not sure that family dog and a man-stopper can be had in one animal. The real man-stopper dogs are not the kind of animals that you'll be taking to dog parks and letting your kids cuddle. They will also be a heck of a lot of dog to deal with from a handling point of view. 

If you do get one of those, please do yourself a favour and factor in training _for you_ and your family. Preferably with the person that trained the dog you'll get. You will all need to know how to interact with the dog, what to look for, what to do in various situations.



athena14 said:


> My wife is an excellent reader of dogs looking at photos. She can spot so much looking at a photo.


No criticism intended, but don't put too much trust into that. GSDs are in a different league from "regular" dogs (a man-stopper being even more different), and while you can look at photos and read as much as you want (and I completely support the research you're doing), nothing will come close to hands-on experience. 

It'll be very important for you to have complete trust in whatever breeder you end up working with, as it'll be up to them to ensure a good dog match for your family.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

yuriy said:


> I'm not sure that family dog and a man-stopper can be had in one animal. The real man-stopper dogs are not the kind of animals that you'll be taking to dog parks and letting your kids cuddle. They will also be a heck of a lot of dog to deal with from a handling point of view.
> 
> This is not true. Most of the police dogs I see are around kids, families, festivals, etc...A dog that is social is becoming a huge factor in choosing police dogs. Can I ask your experience with "man stoppers?" do you train with protection, LE, or sport? My 3 year old toddler cuddles with a "protection trained" dog that has plenty of fight drive, every day. But he's also incredibly social, stable nerved, has an off switch, and is balanced. Also, imho, no dog should be at a dog park, but that's a topic for another day.
> 
> ...


I agree with the comments about seeing a photo. Pedigrees and pictures (and most of the time videos) don't tell you how much a dog is "worth." The dog tells you how much it's worth.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

athena14 said:


> ^.
> 
> My last thing right now is this. If this dog is way over what we need.
> 
> Thanks


I'm guessing, you are best equipped to answer this question.


SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A question like this, to me, sounds like you are a novice or am I wrong? In that case I apologize. But if you are new in this field then the following is MHO. A fully trained PPD in the hands of a novice is like carrying a loaded gun without knowing about gun safety and I would question a breeder/trainer who would sell a dog like that to a novice. How experienced is the OP? Maybe I overlooked this.
Money can buy everything but will it work? You need to keep up the training of this dog as well. It is not an instant product you are buying.
There are many breeders who breed sound, stable dogs that can do anything and that you can get under $2000.00.
An example from the horse world from my own experience; rich parents buy a super trained dressage horse for many, many $$$$$$$s in an effort to give their kids a jump start for the dressage competitions. That worked for a little while but the kids, being novices, soon stopped getting good results and the horse dressage levels plummeted and the kids lost interest. But these horse can be just turned out to pasture but what about a highly trained PPD whose skills are not being maintained?


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> This is not true. Most of the police dogs I see are around kids, families, festivals, etc...A dog that is social is becoming a huge factor in choosing police dogs. Can I ask your experience with "man stoppers?" do you train with protection, LE, or sport? My 3 year old toddler cuddles with a "protection trained" dog that has plenty of fight drive, every day. But he's also incredibly social, stable nerved, has an off switch, and is balanced. Also, imho, no dog should be at a dog park, but that's a topic for another day.


I don't have any personal experience with serious protection dogs - I'm commenting purely based on what I've read and heard in dog training videos and my gut feeling. That's not to say I'm correct - I'm no authority on the subject - just the impression I've formed. 

If the OP had experience handling serious dogs and had raised a puppy into a protection dog (sounds like you did that with your dog?), then I can definitely see that dog being a family member, but I'd be very nervous about suggesting a rookie handler to let an adult dog of that caliber play with (or be off leash next to) children. Perhaps after a long bonding period that'll be achievable, but there's no guarantees IMO.

Most of my concern is in the potential for mishandling of the dog and a resulting problem.

(And while I'm definitely with you on the dog parks comment, I suspect many new dog owners go straight there as soon as they have their new pooch.)


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

yuriy said:


> I don't have any personal experience with serious protection dogs - I'm commenting purely based on what I've read and heard in dog training videos and my gut feeling. That's not to say I'm correct - I'm no authority on the subject - just the impression I've formed.
> 
> If the OP had experience handling serious dogs and had raised a puppy into a protection dog (sounds like you did that with your dog?), then I can definitely see that dog being a family member, but I'd be very nervous about suggesting a rookie handler to let an adult dog of that caliber play with (or be off leash next to) children. Perhaps after a long bonding period that'll be achievable, but there's no guarantees IMO.
> 
> ...


Haha, yes...I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "well we picked him up and went straight to the dog park/petsmart/off leash area etc... to see how he did." ~smack head~

I get what you're saying now, about a "novice" handling a "new to the family" adult working dog. And agree for the most part. Most of the police dogs I see come from a broker in Europe and are "mature" and go right to their handler. Most handlers have kids and their kids are around the dogs. Then again, the handlers are getting 5-10 weeks/40 hours a week, of training with the "master trainer" before they are "certified" etc....So it isn't nearly the same as OP's situation.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> A question like this, to me, sounds like you are a novice or am I wrong? In that case I apologize. But if you are new in this field then the following is MHO. A fully trained PPD in the hands of a novice is like carrying a loaded gun without knowing about gun safety and I would question a breeder/trainer who would sell a dog like that to a novice. How experienced is the OP? Maybe I overlooked this.
> Money can buy everything but will it work? You need to keep up the training of this dog as well. It is not an instant product you are buying.
> There are many breeders who breed sound, stable dogs that can do anything and that you can get under $2000.00.
> An example from the horse world from my own experience; rich parents buy a super trained dressage horse for many, many $$$$$$$s in an effort to give their kids a jump start for the dressage competitions. That worked for a little while but the kids, being novices, soon stopped getting good results and the horse dressage levels plummeted and the kids lost interest. But these horse can be just turned out to pasture but what about a highly trained PPD whose skills are not being maintained?


 
Its not like a loaded gun at all. This is a myth.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

From the website it looks like he was planning to use the female for breeding. Very few breeders are selling their puppies for $1500 anymore usually it closer to 2000-if they come from titled parents and then he did hip xrays-also whether she is titled or not -he probably has put training on this dog-it says she will be titled in 2016 -so if she is almost ready to be titled-that adds value to her. Why not ask the breeder the reason he is charging that price. -


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its not like a loaded gun at all. This is a myth.


So if a dog knows how to do this work and an owner who is not educated enough to manage this dog in certain situations? I based this on a real experience I have had in the way past. Please let me know.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm puzzled by this thread.

OP, would you clarify exactly what you mean by wanting a "protection dog"? That term seems to have one set of meanings and connotations in the K9/military world, another in the IPO world, and a probably another in the pet dog world. I feel like it's being used in different ways by different people, even here.

Here's why I think it's worth clarifying. In rescue, I've talked to a lot of families who write in their application that they want a "protection dog." Inevitably, when we drill down into that that means to them, they really just want a stable dog, good with the kids, who will reliably bark menacingly at the front door, and they have no plans to do anything more than basic (novice-level) OB training. In their minds, that sentry barking is the essence of a "protection dog." 

For those families, it's easy to find them a great match. 99% of pet dogs will do that, with no training--and some will do it to the point of being annoying. I can walk in any local shelter and find that in a dog. I can also walk in a shelter and find dogs that are amazing with kids -- good rescues find those dogs every day. If it's that easy for me to find in "throw away" dogs, it has to be even easier for good breeders who have solid, even-tempered, clear-headed temperaments in their lines. Finding breeders producing great family dogs shouldn't be hard at all. Some have posted on this thread.

What you're describing so far isn't a rare temperament. A stable, calm, good family dog is actually _easy_ to find, esp. in older adults (5+). 

Can you help clarify exactly are you looking for that is specific and unusual? It might help you get better feedback on where to find it.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

The OP wrote "I can't get a dog that doesn't know how to attack if ever needed," which sounds like he wants a dog that will both engage on command, and also if its handlers are in trouble, but haven't given the command. So I think his understanding of a protection dog is more inline with the Police K9/Military version.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm not so sure of that. I think that's what it means to people who train PPDs. I've heard pet dog owners describe sentry barking that way (as the dog looks like it would go out and bite the mailman, if the door were opened). With novice owners, I'm very unsure what they mean with this stuff. 

OP, can you explain exactly what you are envisioning here?


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## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

Hi Mag. Yes sure!

And thank you all who have posted as said my computer is broken right now so phone is only way of
Messaging right now or I would reply to everyone!!

In protection dog I mean these things:

-has been trained in bite work
-has confidence to not go attacking anything that moves when trained
-has a super calm confident composure
-has excellent obedience on and off leash
-follows commands
-does not dominate an owner
-good with kids
-can take the dog in outdoor settings such as walks around the neighborhood. Hikes. Will not just bark at someone coming close walking by. Does not go into kill mode if it sees another dog
-can give command to bite if need be
-will attack on its own if say someone grabs my kid and runs off
-has been trained to a degree that builds confidence. Calmness. Sureness. Steadyness. Soundness. Trust. 
-is a top of the top pick if selecting though 15 dogs, this dog would "have it all"
-does not go turbo when a leaf whips across the lawn
-can know when a training session is over and mellow down
-is that dog someone wishes they owned




My summary of what I think a protection dog is, the ability to attack on its own if it feels the situation warrants it or I can command to attack in the event I would need to. And the dog is smart enough to differentiate between "dangerous" "odd" situations to everyday non threatened situations. I think a protection dog is the "best" of a litter and trained out for further evaluation to assure the breeder was correct in early assessment. A protection dog to me is a balanced dog that can be with people And surroundings and be worked and has been in bite work

It also might be easier to say my situation and let me know if I am right needing a dog that does "protection"... Family history is grandfather has had two attempted kidnappings. His kids were targeted with photos demanding payment or kidnapping. Now our son is a target of kidnapping. Have had people come in my house and took selective paperwork. Have been watched on and off for ten years... Great grandfather is a prominent man in Europe, Among other crazy things to shake my head at. The main thing is worrying about my kid being taken #1. but at the same time I don't want some Robo dog that is ballistic at anything and everything. I want to live a normal
Life with that feeling of security as guns have always never been an option to us with child safety. I mean u can do what you do at the end of the day. And it feels like having a dog for deterrent and two if someone is dumb to try something I would have another line of defense that I can rely on, my other shepherd wouldn't attack a stick, it was the dashund that would but come on its a dog you can kick across a field. Haha

I don't want some dog that's a super dog that tracks people down and have killed people or some crazy thing. I just want a dog that has super obedience and nerves of steel in the event something played out that I would say. Wow really
Glad we Perseus that dog idea. Yes if leaning toward a side I would rather have a more family dog then a dog that has been trained to attack its whole life. Do I think the dog would ever need to attack 99% chance no. But in that small sliver of an event you want a dog that you can count on that if someone tries to grab my kid I will walk away very thankful. Or if someone at night tries to do something in the cover of darkness you can rely when it goes running in the dark your gonna hear someone screaming for help...

I for one am very reserved about getting a dog as I know how much work they are. And a dog like this I think would need weekly sessions with me which I don't even know if I can be a good fit, and at least twice a year sessions with the original handler. Nothing something I look forward to but being worries about your kids safety which I cannot provide, makes me Look for ways to feel I can live a normal life again..




I very much agree on a puppy being a good fit. Bill talked to us about this that the puppy would grow up in the surroundings with the kid and no worries there. Our concern was needing something now along with you don't fully fully know what the dog is or not till its older. It has no bite work. I don't want to involve myself in getting the dog trained for that long working with a dog from scratch. I didn't want the puppy stage of him chewing all my kids toys and as bill said he will most likely with dogs like this, grab my Kids clothes and shake him around if he goes running and screaming down the hall which he does as Bill heard on the phone. I do not doubt these top
Breeders puppies looking excellent!! But after talks we decided a puppy doesn't seem the best fit even though we think the advantage for sure is bonding with our kid and having that close connection which I don't think will fully happen with an adult dog that is use to kennels and not raised in a family situation. I would think about a puppy if I lived very near next to a top trainer so I can assure they will teach bite work and can work to tailor what I'm wanting. "Protection " work and amazing obedience skills on and off leash but I'm Not sure I see that happening.

I think this is why he suggested this dog as my wife looking at the dog says it has a more social character and would be more
Easy to adapt into a household. He offered another older male but told us the drive is strong and we would not be able to get another dog in the house without it being a challenge which was a negative for us. I would assume at the different price points the other dog has a better edge of calm. Confident. Sureness given the other dog is $7k this dog is offered at $15k

I don't know what good it does but there is some videos of the dog on you tube if you search : voxi vom. I still have a lot of questions to ask him and still hear opinions from others but it looks as
If he personally selected this to be a "superstar" dog for his own working and can't say I'm special to be offered her as I believe someone else said they had a chance to acquire her??? 




I thank you all once again to all the thoughtful responses!!! I listen to them all and take into consideration the general vote is seems to stand at, are
You crazy!


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

That's certainly a rather extreme situation. If you're mostly interested in at-home protection, I think some alarm/prevention measures can be a better deterrent, and not require much (if any) maintenance work. Initial costs could be higher, but it would be a simpler solution IMO.

Simple ideas that I'm familiar with (I'm not in the security industry or anything related):

- bulletproof windows
- steel exterior doors
- motion sensors all over the property, set to trigger flood lights, sound a loud alarm, notify your phone
- cameras all over the place; several TVs throughout the house acting as monitors for the cameras; ability to access any camera from your phone
- prickly bushes along all exterior walls and windows
- alarm system
- on-site backup generator to automatically start up and power all security items should the power go out
- a safe room, if you want to go all out

With the exception of the safe room and the first two items, everything is quite cheap and simple to setup, and short of rappelling from a helicopter, no one will be getting into your property without you knowing about it. 

At the end of the day, if someone _really_ wants to get your kid, there's a good chance they'll do enough homework to know you have a dog, planning ahead they can kill it without too much trouble and you won't know until it's too late. A protection dog is great if the threat isn't expecting it. Only you know what kind of people you're dealing with. On the other hand, making your family inaccessible will give you enough time to get the police on site.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

On another note, have you spoken to a security consultant? There are companies and individuals that specialize in helping people in your situations. At the very least, a consultation may give you some options you haven't previously considered.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

For the record - I did find the dog in the OP on the OFA website finally - just was not working right earlier.

Lee


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Athena, although 15 thousand is a lot of money, more then I would ever spend, keep in mind that any time you buy a pure bred dog you're paying in large part for the knowledge and experience of the breeder. You're putting your trust in them.

I'm pretty sure with this particular dog a big part of that price tag is the training thats been put into her, and this isn't some unknown schlock pretending he knows something. For what you're looking for, I think ongoing training and handling lessons should be a part of that price. Ask him about it.


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## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

Yuriy. Thanks for the info. Yes not normal situations most people encounter I think ..

That is a great idea to talk to a "security consultant" to talk about various other options that can exist and would fit. I do understand how much work a dog is which is why I'm not fully happy, as not having a dog is pretty nice, but also don't think I'm one of those people who want to live a life without another pet.. We know we want pets in our kids life 110%. We just have a unique situation were its starting to feel dangerous again without the other shepherd here.. But then again As I said she was no attack dog. She was some goofy batty shepherd..... 

Yeah thinking about dogs made me realize there is a lot of options and a lot that you listed that should be at the forefront when thinking in general.. Security

Thank you guys for the input. Wolf what did you find on the pedigree or website you were looking at? Good, bad??

Something I read which might or might not be true is a lot of the sport dogs are aclimitized to biting on a sleeve and wouldn't know what to do in a situation without a sleeve present???? Any truth to that or heard anything?


Thanks guys. This is such a big decision with so many breeders and dogs that it's a maze to sort through all this info..


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, they learn what they get to bite. They can also learn they get to bite something else too. Talk to him about it. That dog likes to bite, I doubt you wouldn't be able to train what you want in that. I think the main thing would be how she would be able to live with your family.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Speaking in generalities here, someone's training reputation can be different than their business reputation.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Having owned GSDs for 30 years but never needing the services of a true protection dog (and all situations are different) my one concern would be ascribing that level of "judgement" as to whether or not to attack to a dog. 

Might be less of a concern if you did not have kids but kids, if they are to have a normal childhood, are rough and tumble characters and quite unpredictable. I am not sure how much I would trust any dog to discern rough play from true danger and, then, should two youngsters get into a honest fight (which does sometimes happen) would you really want the dog to intervene?

If the dog is fully trained for you for these purposes (not just the BH and IPO1) then $15,000 seems like a bargain since untrained "green" dogs [young healthy untrained but x-rayed adults for police service] go for at least $6-$7K last time I looked and could be more now as demand for bomb dogs etc continues to increase.

I definitely think you would need to learn/maintain/be involved in ongoing training. I don't know enough to discuss sport work vs true bite-work as used by police service dogs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I actually have met this dog though she was very young. She was quite confident, social and outgoing. I would go see her. Would never buy a PPD without seeing and then training with her before bringing her home. Also, you will need to maintain the training. The price is based on the value she might have to you. Might be too much to some and too little to others.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

This is the dog's pedigree:
Voxi vom Geistwasser

She is due to get her BH and IPO1 in 2016.

OP, please note that you will need to work with her and exercise her everyday, not once a week. Once a week maybe for formal training with your trainer but German Shepherd working dogs are high energy and will need your attention, exercise and work everyday. It's a very serious commitment. 

I hope you find what you are looking for to resolve your situation. Bill Kula is a good breeder with a good reputation.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

As already stated, I would want to see the dog doing personal protection type things. All the videos and information I could find just show it doing IPO stuff. The two are not anything alike. I'm not saying the dog can't do it, just that the training is very different.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lhczth said:


> I actually have met this dog though she was very young. She was quite confident, social and outgoing. I would go see her. Would never buy a PPD without seeing *and then training with her before bringing her home. Also, you will need to maintain the training. * The price is based on the value she might have to you. Might be too much to some and too little to others.


The above has what my concerns would be about this dog. Not the dog, but the background, experience and intent of the person who would get this dog. 

Seems like having a PPD dog is having 1/2 of the team. And if only half the team know the rules and has years of training, and the other teammate has little or none, that can be a problem.

Plus, my understanding is that to keep up a dogs level of knowledge in PPD they must be trained/refreshed constantly or they will lose it and just be (eventually) a GSD like the rest of us have. But one that a ton more money was spent for something that was wasted...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> So if a dog knows how to do this work and an owner who is not educated enough to manage this dog in certain situations? I based this on a real experience I have had in the way past. Please let me know.


Bump. Blitzkrieg1, why is this not true? Please explain instead.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

In the end. A dog, or anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I won't pay 700 bucks for a purse. But people do. 

To me, an unproven producer, an unproven worker, is just not worth 15000. However, it's really up to the buyer. If they like the dog, if she is everything they wanted and they are comfortable with that amount, then ok.


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## athena14 (Nov 21, 2015)

well I shot off a list of questions to Bill thank to your guys' help and making me think about some things...

to clarify, I don't think bill ever said she is trained in PPD, or is a PPD.. I contacted him telling him my situation and need a protection dog but also a family dog that I don't want some ballistic dog, I would rather have a more family dog as I have a young toddler and he came up with this dog after talking to his wife... so everyone knows..

I think he ended up mentioning this dog as my wife says from the pictures it looks to be a more social dog with that potential.. as we were very concerned with outings and our toddler... IDK once again.

we talk twow alks a day with outings in the middle of the day the dog would come along so she would have enough exercise.. as for training yes I know nothing about and would be willing weekly to train with her.. I once again don't know much.. my extent and people can laugh as I learned many many things from cesar milan bout pack mentality and energy... I got my dog that pulled hard on a leash at 3 months, to walk by my side with the leash tied to a belt loop as that was my end goal and did, yes she was older but at that age would still pull like a truck.. my shepherd once when practicing for the baby came and ripped the clothes out of my wifes hand and watching a 15 second cesar video go a opposite reaction, so the potential is there on training, I just need to be TAUGHT, haha. you can laugh again but cesar taught me many things like walking through the door when entering first and having that calm assertive energy and envisioning in your mind what you want and leaving all fear and all that, and I use to watch his stuff when I was younger but didn't get it till later in life.. so I feel the potential is there to work with whatever dog we get as I've come a long way from being dragged around on a leash to standing tall and being calm assertive "pack leader"...

at this point I am more seeing there is a split between IPO dogs and "police" dogs and yes I need a dog that could attack in the event of crazy stuff, which I hope would never happen but that is my need for a dog to really bite and defend and attack if someone wants to invade into my personal space and violate someone's rights.... so I don't know if this dog needs to go into other training or what at this point.. I'm asking Bill his thoughts 

I asked him like 20 questions so we'll see. 

one question I have for you all, is going to see the dog and handle her ( say take her on a walk ) is the dog respond to someone who she doesn't know or has never meet? am I going to get a good representation of behavior and obedience or whats your thoughts?

I am always open to suggestions of other breeders or dogs you think fit what I am asking too !!! so you guys know, as I have no idea into the Shepherd world of good and bad, but I know ugly though.. hahahaha


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Are you sure a GSD is the right fit? Two walks a day and what do you mean with "two outings" and "weekly training"? That is not even a scratch in the requirements of the average GSD. Dogs that will attack don't just happen. Most will be working line with a lot of needs in training and exercise, play and games. Many have a nice off -button, given their needs are met on a daily bases.Where do you live? It sounds like you are in a war zone?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I think you just need a great family dog, and can save a ton of money by thinking along those lines.

If you choose a breed like a GSD that LOOKS scary and people think of as 'guard/police' dogs that is (I swear enough) what will work to keep the scary bad guys away and off to someone's home that only has cats  

I've had big dogs for over 20 years now, none have had PPD/protection training and my house/yard/person has NEVER been violated. Merely the perception my dog COULD do something (and trust me, when they are in the house and someone comes around there is very loud and scary barking going on that I never had to train) is enough to keep bad people away.

To pay for a dog that may have training but you won't keep up with (I wouldn't , it's a ton of time) means (to me  ) you are wasting that money. Better to pay $1000 + for just a GREAT dog from a responsible breeder and take all that extra money you saved and put it towards great general puppy/dog classes to go to with your pup to help bond and socialize.

The fact you would take an older dog is fine, most of the good breeders run into dogs or get dogs back that didn't work out with their original family (allergies? What? I need to walk this puppy?). Or work with GSD rescues so know when a good dog is available. 

Just buying over the phone or from photos isn't usually the best way to go unless you know and REALLY trust the breeder and know they 'get' what you need.

You have the time to really run thru ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html yet? Great tips/hints to educate on the GSD so the better breeders will give you more time/effort/better match for your family. If they feel that YOU are doing your part to learn about the breed then they will do theirs to get a pup/dog to you. 

Someone else mentioned there may even be another breed that would fit your needs better --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-german-shepherd-best-breed-me-my-family.html


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I agree that it's a lot of money. The dog can have all the potential in the world but if it doesnt have continued training or the wrong training it doesn't matter. I also agree the size and what people generally think of GSDs can be a great deterrent. My older male is a very good tempered stable dog with absolutely no training in protection or bite work. On occasion the GSD in him comes out, but it's only when necessary. His demeanor changes, his bark changes, and he almost seems to get bigger then he is. Just this morning I let him out(3:30 am) and I hear him bark and it's his I mean business bark, I go to the door and as he was barking he lunged at the fence a couple times(he NEVER does this). I knew something was there and I also know it left because Midnite came to me then went back with his nose in the air and no reaction. I feel completely safe with him around


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Point of reference - a person I know bought a dog through a broker in Germany for $15K - it was IPO1, 'a' normal hips and elbows - OFA Good/Normal, DM free - ready to go for 2 and 3 with some training issues (control/vocalizing) to iron out....has shown sucessfully on a National level....and Oh, by the way - the dog was trained and titled by Fritz Beihler........people in the sport will recognize this name - MULTIPLE times winner of the BSP and 2x WUSV winner.....that is what $15K can buy in Germany.

Another well known trainer/broker sold a dog for $20K several years ago - the dog was IPO1 - won a class at a sieger show prior to being titled....was fearful of new environments, was compulsed like crazy to do dumbbells, had defense (ie fear driven aggression when "backed into a corner") - to me this dog should have been given away to a pet home not sold as a PPD.

Just say PPD and too many people's eyes light up with big flashing dollar signs.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread should have a title change, and Bills name removed from it. 
There are many breeders/brokers that will sell a dog for over 10K, the worth of the dog is what someone will pay.
If this particular dog will earn her BH and IPO 1 in 2016, who will be the one to trial her? Will her price go up after that?
She is NOT trained in personal protection, not titled, and is not breedworthy(or they would keep her for breeding)...so really why is the price tag so high on her?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> ..... keep in mind that any time you buy a pure bred dog you're paying in large part for the knowledge and experience of the breeder. You're putting your trust in them.


This comment is really well-worded. 

The breeder of my first GSD spent hours and hours with me, talking about her dogs, and my wishes, before she ever offered to sell me one of her puppies (initially on the phone I was told they were all spoken for, turns out I was being pre-screened). I did not spend $15,000., but I did spend what was (to me, especially at the time) a large sum of money. Once I purchased one of her puppies, I was always welcome at her home. She had a standing offer to trim nails, clean ears, assess weight, and discuss manners/behavior at any time at no charge. When I was a new puppy owner this was invaluable, and I visited often, tapering off of course as my puppy grew up nicely and I became confident that I wasn't screwing anything up.

If you want (or need!) to have that kind of relationship, make sure you choose a breeder or rescue organization that you are very comfortable with. Not everyone wants that, which is just fine too. What's considered an acceptable expense for one family may be deemed outrageous by another.

I was introduced to Bill and his wife at a competition and they were both incredibly interesting to listen to. His wife answered some of my questions about training & working dogs in great detail. I don't own one of their dogs nor was I shopping for a puppy (they had no vested interest or monetary reason to answer my questions, I'm "small potatoes" and insignificant in the dog world), but they were open and thoughtful in their replies.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

athena14 said:


> one question I have for you all, is going to see the dog and handle her ( say take her on a walk ) is the dog respond to someone who she doesn't know or has never meet? am I going to get a good representation of behavior and obedience or whats your thoughts?


I know nothing about this particular dog, but _in general_, what I'd expect from a well behaved and trained dog of good genetics is that it would be able to distinguish between a benign stranger and a potential threat. What you don't want is a dog that goes all Cujo every time it encounters a random stranger, and just because a dog doesn't react, that doesn't mean it won't sense when something really is wrong. But you also can't assume that it WILL. 

Beyond that, it really depends on the dog. A more social dog that likes people may be more friendly when encountering a stranger, (unless trained to ignore them), than a dog that's more naturally aloof and indifferent to new people.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

15k for an adult dog with nice family disposition but still able to do the work and is trained to do so is a good price. Imported green dogs for 5-7k is pretty standard. Back when the wars were kicking up I knew people who practically made a living selling green dogs that could pass selection to the military for around 5-7k.

Rich people toys. Odin Ot vitosha, Cranks dad sold as a pp dog for 50k. My opinion buy a gun or three and a yippy nervy guy to wake you up when things go bump in the night. If you have the money its a fun way to spend it though.

I wouldnt take on a PP dog client for anything less than 15k it just isnt worth it with all the extra hunting evaluation and work you have to put in. Not when a regular obedience is 2k and a 6 weeker is 3-4k why would you want to take on extra work? Suit work is a **** of a workout. Pay up or go home.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Baillif said:


> 15k for an adult dog with nice family disposition but still able to do the work and is trained to do so is a good price. Imported green dogs for 5-7k is pretty standard. Back when the wars were kicking up I knew people who practically made a living selling green dogs that could pass selection to the military for around 5-7k.
> 
> Rich people toys. Odin Ot vitosha, Cranks dad sold as a pp dog for 50k. My opinion buy a gun or three and a yippy nervy guy to wake you up when things go bump in the night. If you have the money its a fun way to spend it though.
> 
> I wouldnt take on a PP dog client for anything less than 15k it just isnt worth it with all the extra hunting evaluation and work you have to put in. Not when a regular obedience is 2k and a 6 weeker is 3-4k why would you want to take on extra work? Suit work is a **** of a workout. Pay up or go home.


But the dog isn't a PP dog. From my understanding, it's basically started in IPO foundation and may or may not be ready in 2016 for aa BH and a 1. A dog that you described for 15k? Sure. But you described a different situation and a different dog. If this dog was being offered for 5-7k? Sure, but it's being offered for 15k.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There any other kind of training on the dog?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I guess you can say if it had a litter after being titled, the litter could bring $15K to justify the loss of a breeding female...

But - I just heard of a nice dog, title ready with some practice time, for sale due to owner's business commitments, younger than this, imported, for less than $5K - could be a national level dog according to owner who has been in this quite a while.

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I didn't think he was looking for a national level dog...for that matter my 1500 dog could have been a national level dog -if she had a different handler -but that's kind of irrelevant


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> This thread should have a title change, and Bills name removed from it.
> There are many breeders/brokers that will sell a dog for over 10K, the worth of the dog is what someone will pay.
> If this particular dog will earn her BH and IPO 1 in 2016, who will be the one to trial her? Will her price go up after that?
> She is NOT trained in personal protection, not titled, and is not breedworthy(or they would keep her for breeding)...so really why is the price tag so high on her?


Don't know why this is necessary. No one has said anything negative about Bill. Those that know him, or of him, have all said positive things. For all we know OP may have heard the price wrong or maybe was told that by the time he/she finished with training they could spend as much as 15k or just that a fully trained PPD could cost that much.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

My comments are not directed at the breeder or the particular dog offered. Moreover, I have no problem with a breeder or vendor getting the price they can get so long as there is no deception or anything else untoward occurring. 

For me, if I truly felt I needed a real PPD (I do not), I would have little issue with a $15,000 price (notwithstanding the damage to the bank account). However, the dog would need to be trained, proofed, and proven to be able to do the job. I would want guarantees and support, and would want to deal with someone reputable with a track record of training and placing PPD dogs. That person may be a breeder, but more likely someone who procures dogs capable of doing the work from multiple sources. Personally, no matter how "shiny" the pedigree and no matter how reputable the breeder, there is no way I would spend $15,000 on a dog without the training and proof that it could do the job as a PPD, and without guarantees and support. In my view, absent the PPD training and proofing, the dog has the value of a green dog, whether the dog is titled or not (my views may be different if I wanted the dog for sport, intended to breed, etc.). That is just my opinion; everyone is entitled to their own view as to price and value. 

Not recommending the following (I have no experience with them and have not researched PPD vendors in detail), but found it interesting as a point of reference: Protection Dogs | Tarheel Canine


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I know of people selling completely green dogs for $7,500 or more, and "national level" IPO dogs for less. If this dog is trained, I don't see why this price is that outrageous to some. Ask someone how much Drago v Patriot was purchased for and $15,000 is pocket change.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

For reference...the price point is not all that uncommon..

http://www.k-9specialists.com/german-shepherd-males/


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP, you should go look at dogs from alexis's link. Most are 5-6k less than what Kulla's charging (some half of what he's charging) and some of them are titled. Even the one that is closest to his price (and still 3k under), has it's BH and states that the dog is ready for further titles upon request (although "ready" is different to different people).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I *think* Jerry Bradshaw at Tarheel has a known good reputation. I know he writes articles for Police K9 magazine as well. Just from what I have heard but, once again, not a market where I have any experience.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Oh - the dog I was talking about has a BH and FH2.....'a' hips and elbows.....the point is value for price 

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MythicMut said:


> Don't know why this is necessary. No one has said anything negative about Bill. Those that know him, or of him, have all said positive things. For all we know OP may have heard the price wrong or maybe was told that by the time he/she finished with training they could spend as much as 15k or just that a fully trained PPD could cost that much.


Would you or your breeder be pleased if he/she were talked about on a board? Would the breeder have to join this site to come on and clarify what may or may not be posted? 
Maybe they quoted that price to weed out, maybe they quoted that price to engage a newb, maybe they misquoted....

The title of the thread should not have an individual broker/breeder being named as most often it isn't allowed per board rules/liability due to the possible fall out that happens after google picks up during searches. Though, I guess the links imbedded in this thread will do the same thing.


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## Majolica (Feb 18, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> Would you or your breeder be pleased if he/she were talked about on a board? Would the breeder have to join this site to come on and clarify what may or may not be posted?
> Maybe they quoted that price to weed out, maybe they quoted that price to engage a newb, maybe they misquoted....


I kind of agree with this. I have a theory (that I am not going to post), and I feel a little bad that this breeder's (privately quoted) price is being critiqued publicly.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Bump. Blitzkrieg1, why is this not true? Please explain instead.


A dog that is a danger to the general public or a liability waiting to happen will be that way regardless of training. 

Such dogs are in most cases incapable of the work because their issue are fear related. 
Or you may have the rare monster that is super rank and has a socially aggressive dispostion. These are not likely to be found in PP vendors kennel. 
Simply put they are to much a PITA to sell to families and in most cases they are treasured enough by people who actually work and breed dogs that they can be sold to handlers that can deal with them.

Their are very good reasons (which I wont bother to get into) why most half decent vendors will not bother with either type of dog for PP purposes. Not worth the hassle. The name of the game is moving product, happy customers, nice testimonials, no lawsuits and $$.

PP training wont make a dog anymore of a liability then it already is barring some extremely stupid crap. 

The reality is most PP dogs are washed / retired sport dogs that are middle of the road in most ways. They arent loaded guns waiting to go off, nor are most of them all that challenging to handle for a newby with some rudimentary instruction (which most vendors offer).

That is a myth.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

15k is very high. even for an IPO3, KK dog.

Maybe one that has competed Nationally and done very well.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Check out Eurosport. They sell trained dogs and have videos of the dogs on their website. Prices are much less than $15k. Also check out Mike Diehl. JUst google him. He will talk and give you all you need to know.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Eurosport is not the same as it was......they split up....

Lee


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