# Critque/tips?



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I'm just crazy enough to show my working-line puppy in conformation next month. She's 9 months old now and we've started conformation classes. She's getting better at stacking, but I'm having a hard time keeping her nose out of the grass when we gait. She does much better when our "judge" has a treat waiting for her when she comes back--better extension, better expression, etc. I am trying to get hubby to take an interest in double-handling but he is nonplussed about the whole thing. Any ideas?

Moving away from the judge









Moving toward the judge









Stacking--it looks like I need to set her front legs straighter. Any other suggestions?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not to discourage you , but I don't think she will do well in american show --- . 
I am a real cheerleader for Sontausen dogs --- great temperament , great tracking drives -- I would love for you to prove me wrong , but I do believe the comments coming back will be "restricted movement" front and rear .

Before you head into a point show take her out to some inexpensive sanction matches which are to help train newby dogs and newby handlers . You can go to the judge afterwards and ask for a critique on the dog and reason for the decision in their placement.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

For USA/WDA/SV style - you should be the double handler - she will be less likely to stick her nose on the ground and will pull more if someone else is on the lead and you are out front (or if she is like mine! hiding somewhere and occasionally calling her!) If you are doing AKC - I have no clue...avoid that ring coz it makes me sad when I am at shows...

Lee


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I am not qualified to critique, but I do read all the critique threads because I find it very interesting. There was a thread not long ago (and I can't find it for the life of me) where someone pointed out that there is a term used when the front legs are forward and not straight. I don't recall the term, but I do recall that the front legs need to be perfectly vertical. In your stacked photo, your dog's legs are forward a bit...

I also want to say that I've not seen a photo of _you_ where you didn't look super happy. That's neat...

Geez- I totally missed this:


Freestep said:


> Stacking--it looks like I need to set her front legs straighter.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> not to discourage you , but I don't think she will do well in american show --- .
> I am a real cheerleader for Sontausen dogs --- great temperament , great tracking drives -- I would love for you to prove me wrong , but I do believe the comments coming back will be "restricted movement" front and rear .


Oh, I know that. I don't expect to win. I just love to see working dogs in the conformation ring--of any breed--and so I figured, why not? It's something different. I've never done conformation before.

Plus that, one of Julia's dogs has been nominated for some kind of award, and we need to show that the offspring have no disqualifying faults. We can do that either by going up to a judge at a show, asking him/her to sign a form saying such, or we can simply do it by entering a show.

To tell you the truth, winning scares me more than losing.  I just want to present her correctly and not make a laughingstock of us or waste the judge's time. Here we have an inexperienced handler with a working-line puppy ( who will probably come into heat just in time for the show). Ack! I'm trying to just concentrate on making it fun for both of us, but truth be told, I'm pretty nervous about it!


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

I know relatively little about showing SV style, and nothing about AKC. But I do know working dogs CAN win! I put mine in two shows, one of them regional, and he took first in his class in both!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Try puttine your collar just behind her ears and then tightening up on the leash. /that will help to hold her head up. Depending on the judge, I would think you will be alright. Is the show inside or out?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo , the term was bridged -- that is a stacking problem where the handler places the legs forward of the shoulder instead of straight underneath.
Carmen


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> Wildo , the term was bridged -- that is a stacking problem where the handler places the legs forward of the shoulder instead of straight underneath.
> Carmen


Ah! Yes! Thanks!! I just couldn't remember the thread I saw that in...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Freestep I am all for Julia getting the award !
Can you select the venue , as in SV style conformation show , american show . If you select the later choose for an all-breed judge instead of a specialty that will look for more exaggerated angulations.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I was going to attempt to do this with Sonar, however not only is he working lines he is also a coated dog. I thought about doing it just for sag to see how we would do. Would his coat dq us immediately?


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

There is now a long coat class, so you could show. That may just be SV or USCA.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Freestep I am all for Julia getting the award !
> Can you select the venue , as in SV style conformation show , american show . If you select the later choose for an all-breed judge instead of a specialty that will look for more exaggerated angulations.


I think it has to be an AKC venue. And we're definitely showing under an all-breed judge!


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

mthurston0001 said:


> There is now a long coat class, so you could show. That may just be SV or USCA.


I'm going to just start a new topic, don't want to derail this one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

select an indoor venue.

It will show your dogs balance and strong athletic build to its best -- because -- the other dogs will show their faults quicker . The more angulated loose ligamented , softer muscled ASL will start to knit and purl in the rear , swivel, not walk with rhythm , will appear over large . The ring is smaller , spectators are closer - less to distract them , you get a better look at the dogs reactions to the judge approaching you see the look in the eye on the teeth examination and the judge generally going over them.
Make sure you can show the teeth and have the dog stand solid. Practice with a friend. The handler lifts the lips, to show the teeth . 

You should do well . -

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I won't critique, you are getting a lot of advice above.
You have a great attitude. I hope you proceed and have fun with it.
You will learn a lot from that and hopefully get a professional critique
that is accurate.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> select an indoor venue.
> 
> It will show your dogs balance and strong athletic build to its best -- because -- the other dogs will show their faults quicker . The more angulated loose ligamented , softer muscled ASL will start to knit and purl in the rear , swivel, not walk with rhythm , will appear over large .


Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. Unfortuantely I think all the local shows are outdoors, at least this time of year.



> Make sure you can show the teeth and have the dog stand solid. Practice with a friend. The handler lifts the lips, to show the teeth .


Does the handler show the teeth, or does the judge do it, or does it depend on the judge? We have been doing it both ways, Vinca doesn't seem to mind our class "judge" looking in her mouth.

Chances are, there may not be a big entry in the 9-12 puppy class. It's possible that she could be the only dog. So what happens then?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Does the handler show the teeth, or does the judge do it


Depends on the judge. I try to beat the judge to the teeth if I can. Don't want their hands in my dog's mouth after those same hands have been in the mouths of others.

Even though I prefer to show the bite on my dogs, I still have other people check for me, because I'm not always going to get to show the bite.



> So what happens then?


The judge will do the obligatory check of teeth, body structure, down and back, and go around. They will give you your blue ribbon (if they think your dog is of quality to proceed in competition), and you will hang around until Winners Bitch.

At that point, you will go in for Winners Bitch and compete with all the other class winners for the points for that day. If you do not go Winners, you still stay in for reserve (your dog can take the points from WB/WD if they were entered incorrectly).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

think of it as the judge and audience being near by and not getting the long view, like the news anker who you only see by the head and shoulder shot .
Good temperament really show cases itself . 
The handler shows the teeth.
The judge will approach , look the dog in the eye , YOU lift the lips so judge can see if over - under shot or scissor bite, move head a little right , left so judge can see if there are teeth missing. Handler trick used to be to conveniently plant finger/thumb in way of view IF there was a missing tooth. Showing is not about the truth. It is about maximizing assets, concealing faults.
The handler showing the mouth was a measure to prevent transmission of disease from one to the other and to protect the judge from getting a chomp. 

that's a good puppy class to go to then. If she is the only dog she will be judged against the standard . If she is the only one in her class , she will go in again for the best of breed , so will sr puppy winner, and the winner of each class. The four or five dogs will compete against each other as a gender for best female -- one will win . That winner goes on to compete against the winner of the elimination round for the males - top male against top female for best in breed, then best in group, then best in show. Points are assigned according to how many dogs are defeated . Even if there is only one dog in competition and you are it DO NOT GO HOME -- you have to stay all day if it takes all day before you are eliminated (lose to someone) . Novice people have done this and then the Winner Reserve picks up the points. 
It's been a long time -- but this is what I used to do.
(taking working dogs into shows)
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> If she is the only one in her class , she will go in again for the best of breed


If she makes it to winners bitch and takes the points. She doesn't get to compete in BOB if she doesn't take WB.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Okay, this is the part that is confusing me. Say she wins her puppy class (or is the only one there). Then we go to Winners Bitch, which I assume are the bitches that have taken puppy 6-9, puppy 9-12, Open, and whatever other classes there might be? 

If she takes Winners Bitch by some miracle, then we go to Best of Breed? And there are only two dogs in that ring, Winners Dog and Winners Bitch, correct?

What order do the classes typically go in, i.e., how long should I expect to stick close to the ring and what will I be watching in the meantime? 

On the schedule it will say "German Shepherds, ring 3 10:00 AM" or something like that, but is there a breakdown of classes on the schedule? So at 10:00 I show up with all the other GSDs, and they call out the classes as they go? Or is it always in the same order?

I'm kind of confused about what "Reserve" means as well.

I need a handbook.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> If she takes Winners Bitch by some miracle, then we go to Best of Breed?


Yup



> And there are only two dogs in that ring, Winners Dog and Winners Bitch, correct?


Nope. There's winners dog, winners bitch, and then however many specials are entered (specials are dogs that are already AKC champions).

You're not only competing for BOB/BOS if you win winners bitch. You're also competing for best of winners.



> I'm kind of confused about what "Reserve" means as well.


It means you're runner up to the animal that won the points.



> What order do the classes typically go in


Class order is always dogs first, then bitches. ALL the dogs will be judged, then ALL the bitches.

Overall order is:
6-9
9-12
12-18
Novice/Amateur Owner Handler
American Bred
Open



> how long should I expect to stick close to the ring and what will I be watching in the meantime?


Depends if you have any other breeds in front of you and how many.



> "German Shepherds, ring 3 10:00 AM" or something like that, but is there a breakdown of classes on the schedule?


Breakdown of classes? No. Breakdown of breeds ahead of you? Yes.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

We'll be showing this weekend, and on Saturday German Shepherds are on at 8:30 AM in Ring 4. We do not show exactly at 8:30 AM because there are 14 dogs ahead of us in 5 different breeds, so we're really going to show around 9 AM.

There are 16 German Shepherds entered total 4-9(3-0)...4 class dogs, 9 class bitches, 3 dog specials, no bitch specials.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

make sure you have your entry number , arm band with you, which you wear on your left arm , and has to be visible to the judge .

report prior to your time and report to the ring steward to let them know you are present.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Since it is an all-breed show, no worries that the hubby is not interested in doubling as that is not technically allowed. I hope you have a good time! Smile and enjoy exhibiting!


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## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Freestep

I agree with carmen in that you should get in some sanction matches to get your feet wet and get some tips on showing your pup. I would definately stay away from the speciality rings. If i might suggest , i would look at any judges from europe , australia, phillipines and even central america. As they have a tendency to like more of the working/ german showlines then the do the american showlines. We get a number of foreign judges getting assignments in ontario and they tend to stay away from the am show lines. Good luck and have fun in the ring


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is for Wildo --- picture chosen ONLY because it illustrates "bridged" so well (front ) and over stretched (rear) Stud Dog: Handsome Bi-Color Medium Coat (id: 138081) - German Shepherd Dog


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I definitely can spot (most the time) the bridging on the front legs. Not sure I can spot the over stretched rear unless it is *really* overstretched. BTW- that's a nice looking dog!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't know why, but the word "bridged" bothers me to no end, lol. Maybe it's because I was taught that position as being called posting. Who knows, lol.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> this is for Wildo --- picture chosen ONLY because it illustrates "bridged" so well (front ) and over stretched (rear) Stud Dog: Handsome Bi-Color Medium Coat (id: 138081) - German Shepherd Dog


Ugh. Not only that, but he's standing on an uphill slope! Way to make a handsome dog look horrid. 

Thanks everyone for the critique and tips. We will keep practicing and I'll see if I can find a place to stack her in front of a mirror.


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