# judge's comments P me off



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

After he awarded another judges girl BB and then BPIG, when she was the only puppy who was spooky and moved like ****, I went to ask him his opinion on Gemma, my 14 month old I have put pics here of.

WEll sit down, he said she should be spayed, will never finish, that she isn't at all what the breed should look like. He said she looked like a shepherd from 20 or 30 years ago, that she would have won easily back then. He said she obviously had great temperment, knew I wouldn't have her if she didn't. Said she could probably do what the breed was bred to do,that she was probably what the breed originator(his words) expected but that they don't want them able to do that any more. They are supposed to be long, and pretty, not functional, like BB dog( he said that)

He said the GS was the most genetically engineered of all breeds, I said I would have thought pugs or bulldogs and he said no GS's are and they used to look like Malinois and then were changed to look like today's BB and be totally non functional, they can no longer do what they were bred for.

Then he said if I watched what was winning I would see that only ones like BB's are doing any winning, so I asked about the day's special, Gemma's litter mate, and he said he has a terrible front moving like a puppy. So I said well he is a 14 month old puppy and has lots of Group placings and wins. 

I can't believe a judge thought they should be unable to do what they were bred to do, I even said Gemma does herd, and is everything they should be, but no long legs, collie head, super long body, etc. How sad and kinda disillusionment for me, I had head other people's stories and thought well Can must be different, but this was a Can show and Can judge. Gemma has 7 points.

How sad for the breed that there are people who think this way. And that one judge showed his spooky Shepherd and they both thought that was OK. I will happily take my old fashioned pretty, functional girl over the other kind


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Forgive my ignorance, but what's BB and BPIG? 

I don't know if that was an AKC judge, but all they care about is looks and nothing more. They don't care about health or functionality or anything like that. Pretty much, if the dog is pretty, it can be bred - which I find very sad. 

Also, you said it was another judge's dog he awarded. If it was one he knew very well and was a friend of, that's probably why.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

BB best of breed, BPIG best puppy in group, and yeah teh owner of said dog is a judge who lives about 10 min from the judge doing the judging who told me this after the day's judging was over. It is a CKC judge as we are in Canada. Gemma has 7 of total 10 points she needs and is only 14 months so there are some good judges who see her worth and her brother is number 11 Gs in the country at 14 months so not a bad one and like her can do what they are bred for and move correctly not legs everywhere and spooky temperment.

I just couldn't believe these comments


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

trudy said:


> WEll sit down, he said she should be spayed, will never finish, that she isn't at all what the breed should look like. He said she looked like a shepherd from 20 or 30 years ago, that she would have won easily back then. He said she obviously had great temperment, knew I wouldn't have her if she didn't. Said she could probably do what the breed was bred to do,that she was probably what the breed originator(his words) expected but that they don't want them able to do that any more. They are supposed to be long, and pretty, not functional, like BB dog( he said that)


 Unfortunately, I suspect that is the impression many judges get after attending GSD judges education. This judge almost sounds as though he was being sarcastic.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Just looked at pics of Gemma, and I'm no expert, but she's gorgeous, especially for being so young.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

welcome to the world of conformation( Obviously if she has 7 points, she is impressing other judges, I would chalk this one up to "never show under again"..

Don't let it get you down, it happens all the time


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

People say things Its what you think that matters And if you and your dog enjoy showing then keep doing it-


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## gsd_lover (Aug 22, 2010)

I echo Holland's comments, it's just one person's opinion, and keep showing if you enjoy it. Your dogs, both Ty and Gemma, are very good looking and since they have great temperaments, I would continue to show. Have you ever had them evaluated by an SV judge? You might get a totally different assessment. I realize you are going for points in the CKC but an SV show may be worth pursuing since they do take into account their confidence, temperment, and structure as well as how they look. Might be a confidence booster for you, just my 2 cents...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't know much about the AKC Conformation venues..(I've only participated a few times).....but there is the same BS (perhaps more) in the German Style Conformation venues as well.
It gets more disappointing & soul breaking with each passing show, to watch the politics and favoritism that is handed to the wealthy or to those deemed "powerful".
My only advice is....*Get mentally stronger, breed & exhibit good dogs, continue portraying true sportsmanship & maintain your reputation*.....and NEVER let them see you cry! (that's what my husband tells me).
Judges are supposed to *evaluate* each dog (independently) against the breed standard and from the leash downward. Too often than not....they simply look at the leash upward, barely noticing the dog.
I refer to judges as **The Immortals*....*_because this is how many perceive themselves._
Thanks for letting me vent also....
Best wishes to you and your dog!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

forget about that Judges comment. he was friends with the
other Judge. your dog has points. the Judge might not
have liked your dog but that's his opinon. your
points says a lot.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

We had similar experience when our ARA was a puppy. I’m not really much into confirmation showing but, at the time, it seemed like a fun thing to try since there was a Sieger show 130 miles from us. ARA was entered in the 12 to 18 month class. She actually did quite well considering that neither of us had ever been in a show ring. I later had a chance to talk to the judge and she was quite complimentary. Keep in mind that our dogs are German bred and this was a Sieger show. 
The following week, much against the advice of our fellow “German” breeders, we entered ARA in to an all breed, AKC show. It was a disaster!!! The judge told me, point blank, that there was NOTHING about her that he liked. She totally lacked the sleek, streamlined, look of today’s GSDs. I asked him how he expected that sleek, streamlined, steeply angulated GSD to spend an entire day working in the field herding cattle or sheep. His answer was reflective of how much some of these judges know about the breed. “They are not intended for that purpose”. Oh boy so much for knowledgeable judges!!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

thanks for the kind words, nothing anyone says can change my opinion of my dogs, I love them. I don't breed, nor plan to, and only show so teh breeder gets the acknowledgment and then we do our fun stuff. I just couldn't believe a judge would think tehy are not supposed to be a functional breed, just to be pretty?? And to prefer the bad tempered one?? Anyway I just had to complain, I may try an SV if one is around and eventually Gemma will finish as will Ty, who has points from the few times he has been out but he hates it so time will see if we do more there. I think since no thought is involved he is bored, and looks it where Gemma being younger hasn't gotten teh bored look down pat yet


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't even bother asking for comments or even listening to the critiques anymore (at the SV type shows the critique is given outloud). When my boy was 7 months one judge said he had a weak head and then the next week a different judge said he had a substantial head. We just do it for fun, for socialization, and to prove with the ratings and show cards that at the very least the dog has no faults.

I like my dog the way he is, otherwise I would have gotten a different dog.  It's very easy to predict how he will place and what the judge will say, depending on the venue and what I know the judge prefers.

The comments about the dogs not working and looking pretty don't even surprise me. After all, at least in the USA the AKC basically scorned Schutzhund, which is the_ breed test_!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> .....................
> The comments about the dogs not working and looking pretty don't even surprise me. After all, at least in the USA the AKC basically scorned Schutzhund, which is the_ breed test_!


I thought that the Sch title was a working test - doesn't include any comparison to the GSD breed standard, does it? I.E. could an oversize GSD, say 27-28" pass the Sch test and thus be ok to breed?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trudy said:


> After he awarded another judges girl BB and then BPIG, when she was the only puppy who was spooky and moved like ****, I went to ask him his opinion on Gemma, my 14 month old I have put pics here of.
> 
> WEll sit down, he said she should be spayed, will never finish, that she isn't at all what the breed should look like. He said she looked like a shepherd from 20 or 30 years ago, that she would have won easily back then. He said she obviously had great temperment, knew I wouldn't have her if she didn't. Said she could probably do what the breed was bred to do,that she was probably what the breed originator(his words) expected but that they don't want them able to do that any more. They are supposed to be long, and pretty, not functional, like BB dog( he said that)
> 
> ...


Remember that any judge is giving only their opinion on that particular day based on the dogs that they see in front of them. 
Was the show a GSD speciality or an all breed? Unfortunately that can often make a huge difference in who wins or places.

Our US showline male has been cited as a better allbreed show dog than a speciality dog.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I thought that the Sch title was a working test - doesn't include any comparison to the GSD breed standard, does it? I.E. could an oversize GSD, say 27-28" pass the Sch test and thus be ok to breed?


 This seems to explain it although I don't know if it's accurate. (never can be sure on the internet)
Nobleheim German Shepherds - German Terminology

And this is the SV Standard (1997)
SV German Shepherd Breed Standard


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> I thought that the Sch title was a working test - doesn't include any comparison to the GSD breed standard, does it? I.E. could an oversize GSD, say 27-28" pass the Sch test and thus be ok to breed?


Under the SV a dog must have a SchH or HGH title and be within the correct size range to be eligible for breeding. The AKC is just an all-breed registry that hosts shows and events. IMO the SV is THE breed club for German Shepherd dogs.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

I am not surprised. The divergence between show and working lines could not be possible unless the judges were as completely clueless as they are. At least this one knew he was making Max roll over in his grave and admitted it. It is sad, and very stupid, but it is. This is why working line dogs are not often shown, it's an exercise in futility. Nobody can bear to see hock walking cripples, which is why you seldom see GSDs anymore in the really big shows, and still the judges have no clue what they've done and continue to do the breed. What's equally disappointing to me is that the showlines the SV crowns too are a far cry from any picture in Max's book, and are so roached they look like tricycles. Everything he warned against has happened, in spades!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The conformation bar is so low that to participate is to encourage this judgement of ignorance. And what's more disgusting is supposedly reputable breeders see no problem with JUDGES who spew this ignorance. Until the people who participate in these endeavors rise up and protest these actions and opinions from JUDGES, then this charade will continue. This thinking is beyond sad, but there has to be an audience for this to thrive, Shame Shame , Shame!!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Showing is all politics ....... and it's only one man's opinion. Apparently some other opinions agree with yours. You have a beautiful dog. Glad we didn't go the show route. We THINK we have a beautiful dog but most likely would have been greatly disappointed.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> Showing is all politics ....... and it's only one man's opinion. Apparently some other opinions agree with yours. You have a beautiful dog. Glad we didn't go the show route. We THINK we have a beautiful dog but most likely would have been greatly disappointed.


 I certainly wouldn't say it "all" politics but in the more competitive breeds (GSD being one of them) politics comes into play more than in other breeds. Some judges play the politics game for sure but that doesn't mean that all judges are dishonest. 

In breeds with a huge split between the way working and show line dogs look and which are a competitive breed, the odds are likely to be against you more often than not. AKC judges go through a judges education process, which includes seminars and ringside tutoring. The education is done through the parent club and the judges are taught what to look for structure and type wise in the ring. IOWs GSDCA is educating judges that the modern show GSD is correct, so that is what judges will put up if they want to get assignments/entries. 

As for judges being friends with so and so, if you've been in dogs long enough to be judging you're going to know some of the people you are judging. That doesn't automatically mean you're making unfair choices though.

All that said, conformation showing seems to often led to breeding for exaggerations in type, regardless of the venue or breed. I think that is a problem with human nature more than anything, as it occurs in many breeds of dogs as well as many other show animals from horses to cats to rodents to ferrets.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think showing is entirely politics, but winning or placing certainly can be. I've never been involved in show politics. I don't use professional handlers, I train and handle my dogs myself. They are "HOT" (handler-owner-trained). I do not have a kennel that I represent, just me and my pets. I have not really had trouble getting ribbons and top ratings. We don't usually take first place, and a lot of that is because I do not place any priority on perfect ring training and presentation, but I've always felt my dogs were awarded fairly, never any surprises considering the judges. I've never been disappointed by how my dogs have done and been placed.

Generally I find the people making broad pessimistic statements about conformation have never tried it themselves. I'm picking up a 100% WORKING line dog on Saturday and intend to show him at a three day classic in December and will show him "for real" as soon as he is old enough. Part of the reason I picked him and the breeding is because I like the conformation and believe he will do well in multiple venues. 

I'm a sport/Schutzhund person so I'm not condoning the breeding for extreme type and showing dogs that have no drive or temperament. Just saying that showing dogs can be fun for just about anyone. Heck I show a 7 year old spayed female and get ribbons! Don't knock it til you try it.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I enjoy the showing and my "handler"is a 13 yr old boy who can't show his own male GS because he, the dog, is too big and strong and my young female loves him and is small enough for him. The boy is a JR handler, a very excellent one and really wants to finish a Gs and so hopefully will finish Gemma, who is Am/Can show lines but not the specialty type. She is pretty and moves very well and although she doesn't have a long, collie type head is very feminine. 

I would have had no problems with the critiques if it wasn't that he totally trashed the whole breed and standard in his put down of her, to say he could see she could do what she was bred for and the other couldn't but to excuse his choice as they aren't supposed to look functional yet alone be functional well that really bothered me. I truly believed that all the varieties are trying to make their idea of what the breed should be and that all are trying to keep functionality, Maybe they are and it is just this judge's opinion that is skewed. This judge also is a breeder of a herding breed although a different one.

I would never want a dog that could only win ribbons and yet be unable to do what they were meant to. I will give those ribbons away happily and never enter under him, nor will Gemma's breeder and her friends who are trying to maintain what their ideals are, a breed that can do anything we ask of it, that are pretty and hopefully not just the latest trends.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

trudy said:


> I would have had no problems with the critiques if it wasn't that he totally trashed the whole breed and standard in his put down of her, to say he could see she could do what she was bred for and the other couldn't but to excuse his choice as they aren't supposed to look functional yet alone be functional well that really bothered me. I truly believed that all the varieties are trying to make their idea of what the breed should be and that all are trying to keep functionality, Maybe they are and it is just this judge's opinion that is skewed. This judge also is a breeder of a herding breed although a different one.


 This is unfortunately how many non-GSD dog people feel about GSDs. I have heard it over and over from people in other breeds. I know someone in another herding breed that is working toward becoming a judge. She wants to be a herding group judge, which means she has to first be approved for all breeds. She said that GSDs will be the last she applies for and she isn't looking forward to having to judge them because of the exaggerations in type. A couple came came up to me to see the Belgians at a show. They were long time Corgi people and were looking for a big dog. They really had always wanted a GSD but said they decided on a Belgian. When I asked why, they said because they are into obedience more than anything else and need a more functional dog than a GSD. I told them that there are functional GSDs out there and there are different lines from the show GSDs they are used to seeing. They said "well we aren't going to buy from a backyard breeder". I tried to explain that they wouldn't have to and there were plenty of breeders selecting for working temperament, moderate structure and health testing. They pretty much didn't believe me because in their mind, good breeders show in AKC conformation (yet also in their mind, breeders showing GSDs in AKC conformation ruined them :help.


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## Gsdldy (May 7, 2010)

I recently had a similar experience at a UKC show. It was with my Rat terrier though, not my GSD. The judge made the comment to me that my girl was too big, I said, she's well within breed standards. The judge then told me that she would do well on the west coast, they like them bigger there, but she wont CH on the east coast....... It was one of those....what??? moments. I looked at the judge and said, Isnt the breed standard the same on both coasts? She had no answer to that. I just made a note of her name and that I wont show to her again as I dont like her opinions. Some judges just boggle the mind......


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