# Old Guard DDR in Romania.



## RLwhaler

I'm curious if anyone here have any knowledge of this kennel.
I've tried a few times to make contact with him...with no response.


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## Chip Blasiole

I believe that person got some of his breeding stock from John at Ostschutz Kennels in Florida, which are old DDR lines. You can go to John's site and contact him. Some of those dogs tend to be very dominant and aggressive.


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## RLwhaler

Chip Blasiole said:


> I believe that person got some of his breeding stock from John at Ostschutz Kennels in Florida, which are old DDR lines. You can go to John's site and contact him. Some of those dogs tend to be very dominant and aggressive.


You are SO absolutely correct! I did speak to John yesterday....He's doesn't have plans for breeding right now.

I just fell in love with "Old Guard" pups by the name of Bero seen here:


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## carmspack

Bero (vom Old Guard) DDR


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## RLwhaler

carmspack said:


> Bero (vom Old Guard) DDR


 Thank you. Is it safe to say that I will not find anything close to Bero here in the states? I would very much appreciate any leads to find such a pup like Bero.Thanks!


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## Sunflowers

What are you looking for? What is it about this particular dog that you liked so much?
What are you planning to do with the dog?


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## Lucy Dog

There are plenty of breeders breeding ddr lines here in the US. I've got a 7 month old ddr dog snoring away right next to me right now with some of those same lines.


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## carmspack

those aren't "rare" lines as the web site hypes -- pedigree isn't really built for anything -- The whole time I was watching the youtubey I was getting fatiqued , watching a dog who seems disconnected , in the "he's not into you" way . Drop the leash and the dog runs . Want the dog to come to you and stay and visit , grab him, confine him , constrain him with hand on collar or hand on harness , have dog grip in protest , then he goes and does his own thing. I kept thinking what is going to be the dogs motivation in training -- I like genetic obedience and that deep bond / partnership that comes willingly from the dog . I associate DDR dogs with being like white-on-rice with their family , cold and aloof with strangers .

In another video -- 
Bero DDR 4 months - YouTube


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## Lucy Dog

Just watched that video. Like Carmen said, that pup definitely doesn't look very engaged with his family. Kind of the opposite of what you'd think of with a ddr dog. Seems a little chunky for a puppy too, but maybe I'm just used to seeing my skinny pup. 

When I'm out with my pup, it's kind of the complete opposite of how this dog is acting and it comes natural to him. Eyes always on me. High pack drive. Won't let me out of his sight. LOVES his family - his life revolves around it. Very engaged and waiting for me to throw something or give some command. He'll say a quick hello to a stranger for a second or two if I give him the ok, but basically velcro on me the other 99% of the time.


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## carmspack

Lucy 100% right .


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## RLwhaler

Lucy Dog said:


> Just watched that video. Like Carmen said, that pup definitely doesn't look very engaged with his family. Kind of the opposite of what you'd think of with a ddr dog. Seems a little chunky for a puppy too, but maybe I'm just used to seeing my skinny pup.
> 
> When I'm out with my pup, it's kind of the complete opposite of how this dog is acting and it comes natural to him. Eyes always on me. High pack drive. Won't let me out of his sight. LOVES his family - his life revolves around it. Very engaged and waiting for me to throw something or give some command. He'll say a quick hello to a stranger for a second or two if I give him the ok, but basically velcro on me the other 99% of the time.


 Oh I see...That just flew right over my head.For an "average joe" like myself that is really not important.I like his "chunky" looks,His massive size is what caught my attention.His color is perfect for what I'm looking for.

I'm not entering in any types of competition,just a family protector is what I had in mind.P/P will definitely be in the venue.

I'm delighted to hear that there's this lines in the States.Any recommendation you can point me to?


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## Merciel

RLwhaler said:


> Oh I see...That just flew right over my head.For an "average joe" like myself that is really not important.I like his "chunky" looks,His massive size is what caught my attention.His color is perfect for what I'm looking for.


Actually -- and I hope I can say this without causing offense -- for a family companion/protector, a high degree of sociability and affiliative behavior is the _most_ important thing.

A dog who does not care about you has no reason to protect you. A dog who doesn't see his family's children as any more important than an armed intruder has no reason to treat them differently -- if he likes biting, he'll like biting either of them equally, and he's going to have a lot more opportunity to bite one than the other.

If you want a dog who is actually going to live with you and your family, then the absolute #1 thing on the list should be choosing a dog with the right temperament. Size and color are secondary.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Merciel. 

There are many nice looking sable dogs here in the states (everyone wants a sable!) with the temperament/attitude to match. 

Looks aren't everything I"d rather have a butt ugly dog that would jump over a cliff for me, (not literally), than a gorgeous dog that will turn and walk the other way when I ask it to do something..


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## carmspack

don't let this fly over your head . This is probably the most important thing. For training, for pleasure living with the dog , the bond , the natural protection . I can not emphasize this enough. Average joe (I doubt it ) . VIP Joe . That is how the dog should regard you. That's one of the reasons we cherish our dogs. When everyone takes a kick at us, or we are down in the dumps , frustrated, saddened. the dog with the close non judgemental loyal bond pretty well saves the day . 

a family protector has to "love" the family .

he is not massive , he is a bit loose (but okay for his age) .

I'm afraid that this "I like his "chunky" looks,His massive size is what caught my attention.His color is perfect for what I'm looking for." the cliché looks of the DDR looks (expectation) is what many DDR breeders are creating - to meet market demands, the superficial looks , without understanding the pedigrees or the character or keeping the character. I am not saying or inferring that this is the case with this breeder . 

I would not select a dog this indifferent for personal protection.


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## RLwhaler

Merciel said:


> Actually -- and I hope I can say this without causing offense -- for a family companion/protector, a high degree of sociability and affiliative behavior is the _most_ important thing.
> 
> A dog who does not care about you has no reason to protect you. A dog who doesn't see his family's children as any more important than an armed intruder has no reason to treat them differently -- if he likes biting, he'll like biting either of them equally, and he's going to have a lot more opportunity to bite one than the other.
> 
> If you want a dog who is actually going to live with you and your family, then the absolute #1 thing on the list should be choosing a dog with the right temperament. Size and color are secondary.


Please do,No offense at all...I'm learning.Good stuff here.So to be fair,Just by viewing a few videos your outcome to this pup is his temperament? 

Who would you Rec. then? with the idea temperament and the robust large looks that Bero has? Anyone?


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## Jack's Dad

I'll go out on a limb for the dog. How the dog was handled as a little pup may have more to do with it's lack of attention.

Go where lots of dogs are walked or to a dog park and you will see this all the time only far worse.

As I understand from this forum discussions, true genetic obedience is rare.

I would recommend actually looking in to PP. It is a lot of training, expensive and a can be a liability. 

There are a lot of breeders who can give you large sables who would be capable of PP.


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## Merciel

RLwhaler said:


> So to be fair,Just by viewing a few videos your outcome to this pup is his temperament?
> 
> Who would you Rec. then? with the idea temperament and the robust large looks that Bero has? Anyone?


I don't have a strong opinion about anything after watching the videos (although I don't disagree with Lucy and Carmen's read on the puppy, and I'd also note that the pup's body language seems more hesitant in some places than I personally would want). I'm just saying that temperament, as a general concern, is IMO a lot more important than whether the puppy is a big-headed dark sable.

If I wanted a big-boned dog with a stable temperament and good innate protectiveness I would probably start looking at Blackthorn first.

edit: that said, I'm sure you can find great breeders a lot closer to where you are. I mention Blackthorn because they're closer to me, and I'm more familiar with their dogs. I don't know any Texas breeders' programs that well, although I'm sure there are plenty of good ones to choose from. Like Jakoda said, sables aren't hard to find.


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## Saphire

Jack's Dad said:


> As I understand from this forum discussions, true genetic obedience is rare.


There are breeders out there breeding dogs with true genetic obedience... a few are members on this forum.

My dog has it...took me abit understand and recognize it as such. 

I hope you can put color and size at the bottom of your list as "must haves". Health and temperament need to be priority, without that you won't be doing ppd that's for sure.


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## JakodaCD OA

and look at that bruiser in Saphire's avatar))

I want a dog(s) that think I am the center of their universe I have been blessed with a few dogs (gsd) like that, and happen to think they are pretty good looking which was icing on the cake It's so rewarding to have a dog really "into" you (general you) and to heck with the rest of the world, easy trainers, biddable. Can't compare it to a dog who is in it for themselves vs in it for 'you', pet/working/whatever, it doesn't matter


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## Jack's Dad

Saphire said:


> There are breeders out there breeding dogs with true genetic obedience... a few are members on this forum.
> 
> My dog has it...took me abit understand and recognize it as such.
> 
> I hope you can put color and size at the bottom of your list as "must haves". Health and temperament need to be priority, without that you won't be doing ppd that's for sure.


Well you got your dog from one of those breeders.


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## Sunflowers

JakodaCD OA said:


> and look at that bruiser in Saphire's avatar))
> 
> r


Heh, that was a long time ago. 
Gus has grown into quite the stunning big dog.










As for the average Joe not thinking temperament is important, I think the average Joe needs a dog with a solid temperament even more than an experienced German Shepherd owner.


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## RLwhaler

Merciel said:


> I don't have a strong opinion about anything after watching the videos (although I don't disagree with Lucy and Carmen's read on the puppy, and I'd also note that the pup's body language seems more hesitant in some places than I personally would want). I'm just saying that temperament, as a general concern, is IMO a lot more important than whether the puppy is a big-headed dark sable.
> 
> If I wanted a big-boned dog with a stable temperament and good innate protectiveness I would probably start looking at Blackthorn first.
> 
> edit: that said, I'm sure you can find great breeders a lot closer to where you are. I mention Blackthorn because they're closer to me, and I'm more familiar with their dogs. I don't know any Texas breeders' programs that well, although I'm sure there are plenty of good ones to choose from. Like Jakoda said, sables aren't hard to find.


Thanks for the referral Merciel.I have visited or spoken with at least 10 different breeders in the past 3-4 months,a few from Texas.I'll just keep it civilized and leave it at that... Just as I kept it from my first post.I just wanted to keep it simple.In reference to the temperament? I'm completely aware of this,just didn't want to complicate things.Besides my GSD,I also hunt extensively.Went through this very same scenario with the Golden Retreiver breeders.I had to put Beaux down when he was only 7 years old due to health conditions.It ripped my heart out.I quit hunting.It still tug at my heart every time I bring up his name.

Still optimistic...I know you're out there...


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## bobdog

RLwhaler. pm sent I know Dani. You should make contact with me for some perspective and if for no other reason, that we must live fairly close to each other. I am just northwest of Houston.

Bob


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## RLwhaler

bobdog said:


> RLwhaler. pm sent I know Dani. You should make contact with me for some perspective and if for no other reason, that we must live fairly close to each other. I am just northwest of Houston.
> 
> Bob


Absolutely outstanding!!


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## oldguard

Hello everyone, I apologize for being offline, I am moving from a .com to a .ro domain and I will have my new website up and running by mid January.

To answer to some of what's been said; yes there are various DDR breeders out there although many either have mixed bloodline dogs or just exaggerate in their approach. 
Bero is a fine dog, with great dominance, his litter mate Bodo is a very dominant, athletic dog, his owner emailed me saying he knew the dog would be a good guardian but in reality nobody can get any close to him, with the dog being very protective with great fight instinct. I own Nala, same parents, she has everything a typical DDR would have, bones, fight instinct but what I love most about these dogs is their personality. Many people talk drives when it comes to dogs but I don't see much about personality and I believe that plays a big role in bringing out the cream in a dog. But I guess that makes for a different thread.

Disconnected dog - my dogs "disconnect" from me, especially when I take them to the beach; if anyone wants to see how they re-connect, anyone should just approach me, they will get their answer quickly.

Pedigree isn't build for anything - big mistake. How do you think the breed was developed, to start with? I am not looking to spend time on that, but rather let everyone decide what they believe and want to do. Far from me to state that all DDR dogs are great, as with other main lines, there are goods and there are bads and that being said, you better know how to read pedigrees.
it took me years to understand the things I do practice, so take or live anything from what I say; whatever dog you have/own, just make sure you provide healthy, good life for them; all this internet talk about drives and such generates a lack of appreciation for other aspects of a dog's life.

About drawing conclusions on dogs based on online footage; I take lots of videos of my dogs to show what they got (I'll just put it like that).
As for Bero, more videos to come in the future, he is in training at present time and already shows an insane bite.

Until my website is up again, if anyone wants to contact me, they can do it at [email protected]

Dani


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## oldguard

This is the last shot of Bero i took myself last October


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## newtexas

Try Germelhaus near Dallas.


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## RLwhaler

Well said Dani ~"Pedigree isn't build for anything - big mistake" I completely Agree!

Want to apologize for dropping your name.My only intention is to come here for help...yet,all I got was a public spanking or treated as a step child with freckles and red hair!!  funny thing is...I've been warned about this.

Thanks for response....Today is a good day.

Richard

Btw,Dammm....Bero looks good!


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't see where you got a public spanking, other than people giving their opinions when you asked for them

When one comes on here saying "i want this dog because of the way he looks and don't much care about anything else" (not quotingyou directly),,it tends to put people in the try to Educate mode. 

Dani, Bero is a beautiful dog


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## DDR _SDG

a very common known fact is the ddr lines are slow to mature so knowing this why judge a puppy.


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## carmspack

I am an advocate for a social , stable , approachable dog , able to live in society without grief . I would not look for insane bite in a young dog , or a dog biting insanely at any age . I know there are needs for some truly anti social dogs . Knew of some military handlers that had high security military installation details . The dog that they were responsible for were strictly one-man only , anti social to all else and when the term of employment ended the dogs had to be put down.
When you have a dog where no one can get close that puts limitation on you as to where you can go with the dog . That is the dog that has to stay home. 
I don't know , different perspective . Different society ? 
Just make sure that you can handle the dog .


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## Lucy Dog

DDR _SDG said:


> a very common known fact is the ddr lines are slow to mature so knowing this why judge a puppy.


That's more in terms of sport and bite work. Not actual maturity in terms of being a pet and what's being analyzed in the video.


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## oldguard

RLwhaler said:


> Well said Dani ~"Pedigree isn't build for anything - big mistake" I completely Agree!
> 
> Want to apologize for dropping your name.My only intention is to come here for help...yet,all I got was a public spanking or treated as a step child with freckles and red hair!!  funny thing is...I've been warned about this.
> 
> Thanks for response....Today is a good day.
> 
> Richard
> 
> Btw,Dammm....Bero looks good!


No apologies required! I hope I was able to answer some of what you asked or thought about asking. I do check my emails daily but don't have much time for the forum I am afraid, so I will be glad to respond to any questions through my email address.
Today is a good day indeed!


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## oldguard

DDR _SDG said:


> a very common known fact is the ddr lines are slow to mature so knowing this why judge a puppy.


While many state that is an excuse for a dog not being good, I actually own several DDR dogs and am able to confirm that DDR dogs do mature slowly, although you do come across exceptions from time to time. My Nala was very sharp from an early start.

Off the record, many make the mistake (even trainers I know) to draw the line on a dog before the age of one year or even two; many fail to realize a dog goes through several stages in its development and one dog that seems to be fire and bullets at first may turn out to be just a big playful dog, while a softy seeking a private corner may turn out to be a gladiator. I guess what i am saying is, do not judge a dog in his puppy or young adult life season. 

My apologies for going a little bit off track with this.


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## oldguard

carmspack said:


> I am an advocate for a social , stable , approachable dog , able to live in society without grief . I would not look for insane bite in a young dog , or a dog biting insanely at any age . I know there are needs for some truly anti social dogs . Knew of some military handlers that had high security military installation details . The dog that they were responsible for were strictly one-man only , anti social to all else and when the term of employment ended the dogs had to be put down.
> When you have a dog where no one can get close that puts limitation on you as to where you can go with the dog . That is the dog that has to stay home.
> I don't know , different perspective . Different society ?
> Just make sure that you can handle the dog .


Good post.


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## vomlittlehaus

After watching the video, I see a puppy wanting to get to his owner (with the camera). Puppy has a strong bond with that person and is constantly trying to get to that person and getting frustrated being kept away. When off leash the pup goes right to the camera. It was edited at that point to a point where pup was able to be seen by the camera at a distance. I know how frustrating it is to try to get good pictures when my pups want to be right next to me, and I am the only one to take the pictures. He has turned out to be a very nice looking boy.


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## carmspack

after seeing many videos of Bero I take it that the bald gentleman is the owner . There is a video of a "Bero" Oct '13 which , if it is the same dog, makes him to be 11 months .


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## RLwhaler

I had the pleasure to see Bero current pictures/video.He is absolutely breathtaking! ****,EVERY dog that Dani owns is out of this world! Between Dani and John dogs....I will wait as long as it takes to own one.





dawnandjr said:


> After watching the video, I see a puppy wanting to get to his owner (with the camera). Puppy has a strong bond with that person and is constantly trying to get to that person and getting frustrated being kept away. When off leash the pup goes right to the camera. It was edited at that point to a point where pup was able to be seen by the camera at a distance. I know how frustrating it is to try to get good pictures when my pups want to be right next to me, and I am the only one to take the pictures. He has turned out to be a very nice looking boy.


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## GSDluver4lyfe

carmspack said:


> I am an advocate for a social , stable , approachable dog , able to live in society without grief . I would not look for insane bite in a young dog , or a dog biting insanely at any age . I know there are needs for some truly anti social dogs . Knew of some military handlers that had high security military installation details . The dog that they were responsible for were strictly one-man only , anti social to all else and when the term of employment ended the dogs had to be put down.
> When you have a dog where no one can get close that puts limitation on you as to where you can go with the dog . That is the dog that has to stay home.
> I don't know , different perspective . Different society ?
> Just make sure that you can handle the dog .


I agree! I take up the belief that how can your dog protect you if you A) cant take it out in public where most of the "threats" lie anyways or B) has to be crated at home when anyone else is around or because they are too crazy to stay out. What are you going to say to said threat? "Oh, dont pull the trigger yet, let me go let my dog out first"  For specific reasons there's a purpose for everything, but for the "average joe" its a liability. 

I take my dog everywhere with me and I rely on his ability to deter and protect me in that sense (cause I feel once someone knows you have a big "scary" dog and decide to target you anyways 9 times out of 10 the dog won't be of any use once they verify the fact that they are prepared to handle the dog anyways that an attack is imminent) Some people need a little more confirmation that my dog is serious, and they should back the **** up but insist on advancing just to "test it out" but in the 3 situations where I truly believe my dog saved my life it never escalated to a point of full contact. They got the message and my dog did exactly what he was supposed to, and thats to run the threat off as efficiently and safe as possible as that is the easiest and least dangerous method vs a full contact brawl. My dog will stay at my side and most people aren't stupid enough to see if my dog will bite them for real and fully advance on me and thank God I didnt have to find out (if he actually would bite). Mind you anyone can approach my dog, some people he likes (or knows) and will solicit attention, others he just ignores as they try to get his attention and I've only seen him react in a defensive manner while training and in those 3 isolated instances. 

I also agree with the other poster who said that you can't always judge a puppy's behavior into adulthood. The changes in my dog personally are that of night and day from adolescents to now. He may not be the most overly confident dog but I believe because of his strong pack drive and the bond we share that he will die for me without a second thought because I am his world. I can't imagine a dog without a strong bond to their family or person being able to protect their family with the intensity of a dog who views their owner as their whole life. My dog isnt glued to my side, likes to explore but he always comes back to "check in". 

My whole point being, everyone wants a protection dog. But 99% of that protection comes from the dog's presence alone and if someone is stupid enough to keep on coming and risk getting mauled then I would bet that they already have a plan to take the dog out anyways. So if it gets to that point your gonna need a more secure type of protection anyways because anyone who risks getting mauled by a GSD is desperate for something you got and that very well may be your life. JMO


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## misslesleedavis1

Carmspack!!! you know your stuff!! i would love to have someone tell me what they think of my dogs personality, and what sports they would think he would be good at!!!!!! lol, a GSD specialist


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## RLwhaler

GSDluver4lyfe said:


> I agree! I take up the belief that how can your dog protect you if you A) cant take it out in public where most of the "threats" lie anyways or B) has to be crated at home when anyone else is around or because they are too crazy to stay out. What are you going to say to said threat? "Oh, dont pull the trigger yet, let me go let my dog out first"  For specific reasons there's a purpose for everything, but for the "average joe" its a liability.
> 
> *sigh* ....2 generation Airborne..USMC here.I don't need my dogs to bite.I have no qualm dropping a hammer on anyone that is a threat to my family that includes my 4 legged family member.
> 
> 
> 
> I take my dog everywhere with me and I rely on his ability to deter and protect me in that sense (cause I feel once someone knows you have a big "scary" dog and decide to target you anyways 9 times out of 10 the dog won't be of any use once they verify the fact that they are prepared to handle the dog anyways that an attack is imminent) Some people need a little more confirmation that my dog is serious, and they should back the **** up but insist on advancing just to "test it out" but in the 3 situations where I truly believe my dog saved my life it never escalated to a point of full contact. They got the message and my dog did exactly what he was supposed to, and thats to run the threat off as efficiently and safe as possible as that is the easiest and least dangerous method vs a full contact brawl. My dog will stay at my side and most people aren't stupid enough to see if my dog will bite them for real and fully advance on me and thank God I didnt have to find out (if he actually would bite). Mind you anyone can approach my dog, some people he likes (or knows) and will solicit attention, others he just ignores as they try to get his attention and I've only seen him react in a defensive manner while training and in those 3 isolated instances.
> 
> 
> 
> You have got to be delusional if you think YOUR dog is with you 100% of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> I also agree with the other poster who said that you can't always judge a puppy's behavior into adulthood. The changes in my dog personally are that of night and day from adolescents to now. He may not be the most overly confident dog but I believe because of his strong pack drive and the bond we share that he will die for me without a second thought because I am his world. I can't imagine a dog without a strong bond to their family or person being able to protect their family with the intensity of a dog who views their owner as their whole life. My dog isnt glued to my side, likes to explore but he always comes back to "check in".
> 
> My whole point being, everyone wants a protection dog. But 99% of that protection comes from the dog's presence alone and if someone is stupid enough to keep on coming and risk getting mauled then I would bet that they already have a plan to take the dog out anyways. So if it gets to that point your gonna need a more secure type of protection anyways because anyone who risks getting mauled by a GSD is desperate for something you got and that very well may be your life. JMO



It only takes that one time to do harm...


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## GSDluver4lyfe

No he's not with me 100% of the time and I don't expect him to be my one and only source of protection. That was my point. When he's with me (and he can be because he's not a danger to society) he does his job by not making me such an "easy" target. Someone without a dog is a much easier option. My whole point being true protection isnt needed 90 something % of the time because by the time something escalates to the point where the dog will have to bite its more and likely too late for that option and your gonna need an alternate source of protection. I wasnt referring to you specifically. Just saying the look of a GSD is usually all the protection we need as pet owners. So one that is well balanced and can go out in public can only accomplish the task that much more than one that has to stay at home locked in a crate because its insane.


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## GSDluver4lyfe

RLwhaler said:


> It only takes that one time to do harm...


One time for what? Are you saying if I only rely on my dog as my only source of protection I can be harmed? Which is why I say if my dogs presence isnt enough to protect me, I will find a more permanent solution if my life or the ones I love lives are in danger. I'm not dillusional and won't hesitate to defend myself by any means necessary. My dog, I fully believe (when he is with me) has stopped situations from escalating to a possibly fatal threat to my life to where I would be forced to defend myself with the same intensity.


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## bill

If someone kicks in my door; they will have a Shepherd on their a.. " and a 44 in their head! My dog loves the granbabies and would die for them! He definitely will give us time too save ourselves! If the bad guy misses; I will save my dog! Bill


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## RLwhaler

bill said:


> If someone kicks in my door; they will have a Shepherd on their a.. " and a 44 in their head! My dog loves the granbabies and would die for them! He definitely will give us time too save ourselves! If the bad guy misses; I will save my dog! Bill


EXACTLY Bill!! The luxury of having a shepherd is... He/she can give me or my wife a few seconds to load up.Bill,these days,we hear. as you mention above,"kick door" home invasion.,Ask yourself this.." How fast can I get to my weapons".My long time friend of 30 plus years(Marines) Have taught at every law enforcement in the country suggested what he calls a "a floating 15 seconds".


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## bill

RLwhaler said:


> EXACTLY Bill!! The luxury of having a shepherd is... He/she can give me or my wife a few seconds to load up.Bill,these days,we hear. as you mention above,"kick door" home invasion.,Ask yourself this.." How fast can I get to my weapons".My long time friend of 30 plus years(Marines) Have taught at every law enforcement in the country suggested what he calls a "a floating 15 seconds".


That's right! I too am ex. Military! One thing for sure the dog is not intimidated! Buy looks or a weapon; and when a dog meaning business is coming at you; it gets your undivided attention! That's all the time I need! What a sad world we live in. Bill


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## RLwhaler

bill said:


> That's right! I too am ex. Military! One thing for sure the dog is not intimidated! Buy looks or a weapon; and when a dog meaning business is coming at you; it gets your undivided attention! That's all the time I need! What a sad world we live in. Bill


Yes Sir.I truly believe you know the protocol and timing one have to engage.Just need a little "tick tock" and we'll be right back to engage.
Indeed sad Sir...Different times we live in.Be well Bill,Best Regards! Richard


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## bill

RLwhaler said:


> Yes Sir.I truly believe you know the protocol and timing one have to engage.Just need a little "tick tock" and we'll be right back to engage.
> Indeed sad Sir...Different times we live in.Be well Bill,Best Regards! Richard


Thank you! No sir required! Just Bill: I was an enlisted man.lol thanks anyway! And yes sir you are right. Have a save night Richard! Bill


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## bill

Safe


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## Blitzkrieg1

There are plenty of strong independent type pups that take a while to really bond with their owners. I dont see a huge deal with a pup of 4 months wanting to do his own thing. I do see it as a potential fault if the dog is glued to you all the time, could be insecurity.

I have said it before and Ill say it again, a dog that cannot protect my family and property wont eat my food or live under my roof. He/She better be able to offer more then just a "deterrent".


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## bill

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are plenty of strong independent type pups that take a while to really bond with their owners. I dont see a huge deal with a pup of 4 months wanting to do his own thing. I do see it as a potential fault if the dog is glued to you all the time, could be insecurity.
> 
> I have said it before and Ill say it again, a dog that cannot protect my family and property wont eat my food or live under my roof. He/She better be able to offer more then just a "deterrent".


Very well said! A dog that just barks; is just a lot of noise! A true guard dog; guarding a property; trained right stays hidden and quiet! Until time too engage! Unless you want a bullet to his head! P.s. I'm not talking about guarding car lots! Lol Bill


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## GSDluver4lyfe

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are plenty of strong independent type pups that take a while to really bond with their owners. I dont see a huge deal with a pup of 4 months wanting to do his own thing. I do see it as a potential fault if the dog is glued to you all the time, could be insecurity.
> 
> I have said it before and Ill say it again, a dog that cannot protect my family and property wont eat my food or live under my roof. He/She better be able to offer more then just a "deterrent".


I never said they can't offer more than being a detterent. All I was saying if it escalates to that point where true protection is needed all that dog is going to provide you is time to take up another form of protection. And I never said my dog was glued to my side. Everything gets so twisted. LOL Its rediculous. My whole point is not to rely on your dog as your only source of protection. It has nothing to do with your dogs capabilities but the capabilities of the one who wants to hurt you and the deadly weapons they can use to kill your dog. Its always about putting someone else's dog down, ALWAYS. Well my dog has protected me and I could give a **** why, I'm still here breathing and typing this response arent i. I'm going to go play with my nervebag ****ter of a dog now.


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## GSDluver4lyfe

bill said:


> Very well said! A dog that just barks; is just a lot of noise! A true guard dog; guarding a property; trained right stays hidden and quiet! Until time too engage! Unless you want a bullet to his head! P.s. I'm not talking about guarding car lots! Lol Bill


LOL my dog rarely barks. Oh, well that must be another flaw. Barks too much he's a ****ter doesn't bark enough he's a ****ter. What an obvious trend.  Sticks to my side, nervebag, too independent, still a nervebag. Let me ask a question? Is there a dog that ISNT a nervebag? Let me guess only the one laying under your feet right?! 

Well my last comment on this is I absolutely love and am so grateful for my nervebag! I know what he's got he's proven it to me. The proof is in the pudding. I know whats coming next! "But you said he never bit" LOL doesnt matter I'm alive because he did not back down. And de-escalated the situation before it became a fatal fight. He could have been ****ting his pants for all I care on the inside but he was strong on the outside. May have even been strong on the inside *GASP* Have a nice night!


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## bill

GSDluver4lyfe said:


> LOL my dog rarely barks. Oh, well that must be another flaw. Barks too much he's a ****ter doesn't bark enough he's a ****ter. What an obvious trend.  Sticks to my side, nervebag, too independent, still a nervebag. Let me ask a question? Is there a dog that ISNT a nervebag? Let me guess only the one laying under your feet right?!
> 
> Well my last comment on this is I absolutely love and am so grateful for my nervebag! I know what he's got he's proven it to me. The proof is in the pudding. I know whats coming next! "But you said he never bit" LOL doesnt matter I'm alive because he did not back down. And de-escalated the situation before it became a fatal fight. He could have been ****ting his pants for all I care on the inside but he was strong on the outside. May have even been strong on the inside *GASP* Have a nice night!


Gsdl hi I was not talking about your dog at all; I am sorry if you thought I was. I was talking to Richard in general conversation about home invasion; and guard dogs! And yes your dog did a great job as a detterent! Have a great day! Bill


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## GSDluver4lyfe

bill said:


> Gsdl hi I was not talking about your dog at all; I am sorry if you thought I was. I was talking to Richard in general conversation about home invasion; and guard dogs! And yes your dog did a great job as a detterent! Have a great day! Bill


I shouldn't have quoted your post, because it wasn't meant to be directed at you. I was just commenting on how things get so twisted over the internet. I don't care what my dog's motivation is, if it saves me from death or serious injury then thats all I need. And my dog flying out of my van's window running to me hundreds of feet away and passing me to stand in between me and someone approaching me in a threatening manner, standing his ground growling (ears up, tail up slightly swaying, no hackles) escalating in his intensity the closer this person got is hardly what I would call cowardice behavior. IDK if he would have bitten because this person got the hint eventually (think they were intoxicated. I mean they had to have been to have kept advancing the way they did) and he was still far enough to elicit a warning from my dog but didn't cross his threshold for feeling a bite would be necessary. It gets frustrating when you can't get your point across over the internet and I apologize for getting heated. I love my dog and critisizing him and his ability to protect me (which he has done and I owe my life to him on 3 seperate occassions) makes me a little defensive. He may not be the strongest dog but he's my lifesaver. There have been many times I wished I could of gotten a different dog but now I couldnt even dream of my life without him.

My simple point is I rather my dog show restraint and if it has to get physical I will handle it. He can de-escalate a situation so much easier than I can, so that is doesnt have to get to a physical level that's my whole objective to stop something before deadly force must be used. He drives the threat away so I dont have too. And yes, I'm the moron who will try to protect my dog from injury or death. So him actually going for a bite (without my consent) would probably make me flip out, try to protect him and make everything worse. His job is to deter and drive the threat away (though I feel he is capable of more) and if that doesn't work its my turn. We are a team not a one man show. And we all probably agree on alot regarding this topic, its just difficult to get your point across online.


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## bill

Sounds like you have a great dog! That loves you very much! And yes on the team! You look out for each other. I had a arrogant 6 ft 5 300 pounds guy years ago talking about taking my dog in hand to hand combat! I told him if that dog bit someone for no reason; I would have him put down! If he bites its something serious going on; and I have not meet anyone yet that could whip both of us! Lol this is true their are some crazy people in this world! Have a great night Bill


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## GSDluver4lyfe

bill said:


> Sounds like you have a great dog! That loves you very much! And yes on the team! You look out for each other. I had a arrogant 6 ft 5 300 pounds guy years ago talking about taking my dog in hand to hand combat! I told him if that dog bit someone for no reason; I would have him put down! If he bites its something serious going on; and I have not meet anyone yet that could whip both of us! Lol this is true their are some crazy people in this world! Have a great night Bill


That goes to show you just how crazy people can be! Who in their right mind wants to take on a GSD? Teamwork is always better! There is power in numbers but beyond that there is unbelievable strength and power that comes from loyalty. And you can't be part of a functioning team without it. You have a good night as well Bill!


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## Blitzkrieg1

My comments were general in nature, I dont know your dog maybe he is a nervebag maybe he isnt. I dont really care. 
A lot of people make comments on here that tell me they have no understanding of human nature and those who prey on others. Nor do they understand conflict dynamics and the huge effect a dog that not only barks but can actually back up its display of aggression has. Its irritating because they speak as if they have actual experience when its obvious they do not.


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## mharrisonjr26

I think alot of peoples dogs maybe 90% or more would rather run then fight. A gsd generally speaking probably wont naturally defend the family when in real danger. Mainly because show and pet lines are the most popular. Nevertheless I believe it to be true. Everyone with a dog more then 40 lbs has most of the protection 
they need. I think if your dog hasnt been put into a real situation, you cant say for sure he would give his life for you or your family. Most peoples confidence in their dogs protection ability comes from wishful thinking, ignorance,and arrogance. Exactly why color and size is secondary in the selection process. I think that the heavy hitters are giving you the best advice.

I'd like to add that I have seen many many dogs that bark, and would eat you up in a second, and then go lay down or go play with the family. But to each his own. I like the old guard dogs Dani is a facebook friend. I think the dogs arent for the average joe.


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## eddie1976E

mharrisonjr26 said:


> I think alot of peoples dogs maybe 90% or more would rather run then fight. A gsd generally speaking probably wont naturally defend the family when in real danger. Mainly because show and pet lines are the most popular. Nevertheless I believe it to be true. Everyone with a dog more then 40 lbs has most of the protection
> they need. I think if your dog hasnt been put into a real situation, you cant say for sure he would give his life for you or your family. Most peoples confidence in their dogs protection ability comes from wishful thinking, ignorance,and arrogance. Exactly why color and size is secondary in the selection process. I think that the heavy hitters are giving you the best advice.
> 
> I'd like to add that I have seen many many dogs that bark, and would eat you up in a second, and then go lay down or go play with the family. But to each his own. I like the old guard dogs Dani is a facebook friend. I think the dogs arent for the average joe.


All you have to do is look at the videos of "pretend intruders" out there testing peoples dogs, dobbies, rotti, GSD, mutts, labs, etc....99% of them don't protect. In fact on one such demo, the woman and her baby were in the house, and the GSD went and hid behind her while the attacker approached her aggressively. That dog does not deserve a single kibble in my mind. If a GSD can't protect (at least attempt to anyway), if a retriever doesn't retrieve and is afraid of water, if a border collie doesn't herd, what purpose do they have? I hate how the fight has been taken out of "protection" breeds. I would hope a well bred working line GSD would have the basic instinct to protect and you could harness/grow that with the proper training to what ever degree you want.


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## RLwhaler

mharrisonjr26 said:


> I think alot of peoples dogs maybe 90% or more would rather run then fight. A gsd generally speaking probably wont naturally defend the family when in real danger. Mainly because show and pet lines are the most popular. Nevertheless I believe it to be true. Everyone with a dog more then 40 lbs has most of the protection
> they need. I think if your dog hasnt been put into a real situation, you cant say for sure he would give his life for you or your family. Most peoples confidence in their dogs protection ability comes from wishful thinking, ignorance,and arrogance. Exactly why color and size is secondary in the selection process. I think that the heavy hitters are giving you the best advice.
> 
> I'd like to add that I have seen many many dogs that bark, and would eat you up in a second, and then go lay down or go play with the family. But to each his own. I like the old guard dogs Dani is a facebook friend. I think the dogs arent for the average joe.


BINGO!!! Now ain't that the truth! And that's what drawn me to John's and Dani's dogs.Some can only speak or read about border patrols..ect...when Dani is or was one.Again,realistic is my approach.That to me speaks louder than anything.Cheers!


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## Blitzkrieg1

eddie1976E said:


> All you have to do is look at the videos of "pretend intruders" out there testing peoples dogs, dobbies, rotti, GSD, mutts, labs, etc....99% of them don't protect. In fact on one such demo, the woman and her baby were in the house, and the GSD went and hid behind her while the attacker approached her aggressively. That dog does not deserve a single kibble in my mind. If a GSD can't protect (at least attempt to anyway), if a retriever doesn't retrieve and is afraid of water, if a border collie doesn't herd, what purpose do they have? I hate how the fight has been taken out of "protection" breeds. I would hope a well bred working line GSD would have the basic instinct to protect and you could harness/grow that with the proper training to what ever degree you want.


They are fur babies now.


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## Sunflowers

RLwhaler said:


> BINGO!!! Now ain't that the truth! And that's what drawn me to John's and Dani's dogs.Some can only speak or read about border patrols..ect...when Dani is or was one.Again,realistic is my approach.That to me speaks louder than anything.Cheers!


Dani is or was what? All I see are dogs with a lot of aggression. And someone who keeps his dogs in a wooden pen and agitates them.
Someone tell me what type of training this is supposed to be, because I have no idea!


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## Sunflowers

And this is supposed to be "socialization. "


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## mharrisonjr26

Sunflowers said:


> Dani is or was what? All I see are dogs with a lot of aggression. And someone who keeps his dogs in a wooden pen and agitates them.
> Someone tell me what type of training this is supposed to be, because I have no idea!
> 
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Co3SRYfbCpI


Im not saying i agree or disagree with anyones methods, but since the person in question has chimed in.... Why not ask Dani directly ?


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## Sunflowers

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Im not saying i agree or disagree with anyones methods, but since the person in question has chimed in.... Why not ask Dani directly ?


He has already said that no one can approach him if he is with his dog. So what else do I need to know?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sunflowers said:


> He has already said that no one can approach him if he is with his dog. So what else do I need to know?


That tells you what about his dogs?


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## RLwhaler

Sunflowers said:


> Dani is or was what? All I see are dogs with a lot of aggression. And someone who keeps his dogs in a wooden pen and agitates them.
> Someone tell me what type of training this is supposed to be, because I have no idea!
> 
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Co3SRYfbCpI


"Dani is or was what" Did I stutter? or a lack of comprehension on your end..

"All I see are dogs with a lot of aggression." That's how (I) meaning ME likes them.Not looking for one thats going to sit around a fire and sing Kumbaya with the perpetrator.

"And someone who keeps his dogs in a wooden pen and agitates them." Wooden pen..lets see here..We keep our dogs here the states in chain link fence,Cattle fence with wood brace.Whats your point? agitates? I will recite to in details of your video...Guy walks up tries to lock doors,guys back out of the camera,dogs goes nuts! guys walk back to the gate tries to put his hands on the wood frame..:help:

"Someone tell me what type of training this is supposed to be, because I have no idea!" Training? What training are you talking about? If thats your perception of training? I'm loss for words....


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## RLwhaler

Sunflowers said:


> And this is supposed to be "socialization. "
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dB9tqmsWYow


 
your silly.....truly.


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## Sunflowers

RLwhaler said:


> your silly.....truly.


Sooooo you think taking a puppy to be barked at and snarled at by an aggressive dog is fabulous socialization, and you like a dog who who is people aggressive. I guess you like that too-short tail, as well.

OK, then. Enjoy.


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## carmspack

in my opinion , pretty lame you tube . both of them .
Dogs are not "going nuts" aggressive , they are frustrated by the barrier . Just yapping . Why would the need to bet going nuts , (aggressive) there is not one thing to warrant them being so.


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## Sookie

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That tells you what about his dogs?


Um... A lot.


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## John C.

Hi everyone. I'm new here - I think this is my second or third post. So before I comment, I'd like to tell you a little about my background. I think this is important because while on the internet everyone is just an anonymous person with an opinion - out in the real world not all opinions are equal. Some people know a lot more and have a lot more experience than others.

Having said that, I want to be clear, I definitely don't count myself as an expert on dogs in general or GSD's in particular. There are people on this board who clearly have a TON more experience and knowledge than me. And to be honest I'm here primarily to learn, not to teach.

But I do have a little experience. I'm 55 and have owned dogs all my life - a samoyed, 2 rescue dogs, a golden retriever and 3 GSD's the last of which passed away at age 12 about a month ago. Honestly, I think coming on here is part of a grieving process for me. I really miss that dog.

I also do have a little training experience. Did schutzhund with my last GSD for about 18 months. Belonged to a club that had a bunch of people who had a ton more experience than me. We also had a very talented training director who was also a K9 officer. So we also had a bunch of cops who trained with us. I managed to get a BH with my pup, and we were making a lot of progress to a Schutzhund 1 when our club kind of imploded. So I'm not a total newby when it comes to GSD, or to training.

So, having gotten that long winded introduction out of the way, I do have a couple of comments/observations.

As someone who has done some Schutzhund and trained with dog handlers and dogs whose job description was taking down bad guys, I'm a little disturbed with some of the emphasis on how tough/aggressive, etc people want their dogs to be. Honestly, I've always seen it as my job to protect my dog, not the other way around. At best, we protect each other.

Also, as someone who has seen and trained with dogs that are as serious as a heart attack, I frankly don't think most of them are particularly suitable for civilians in general, and inexperienced dog handlers in particular. You need to be a very confident and assertive person, who either has a lot of experience as a handler, or at the very least is willing to spend a lot of time training with your dog to own one of these dogs. For 95% of the people out there, the best GSD is one who is stable, loyal, intelligent, who possesses a strong desire to please. If you plan to do a lot of obedience, SAR, or other training, a ton of ball drive would be also be good. But if you're primary concern is personal protection, buy a pump shotgun, a handgun or an AR and learn how to use it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sookie said:


> Um... A lot.


Ummm no it doesnt..


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## Doc

John C. said:


> Hi everyone. I'm new here - I think this is my second or third post. So before I comment, I'd like to tell you a little about my background. I think this is important because while on the internet everyone is just an anonymous person with an opinion - out in the real world not all opinions are equal. Some people know a lot more and have a lot more experience than others.
> 
> Having said that, I want to be clear, I definitely don't count myself as an expert on dogs in general or GSD's in particular. There are people on this board who clearly have a TON more experience and knowledge than me. And to be honest I'm here primarily to learn, not to teach.
> 
> But I do have a little experience. I'm 55 and have owned dogs all my life - a samoyed, 2 rescue dogs, a golden retriever and 3 GSD's the last of which passed away at age 12 about a month ago. Honestly, I think coming on here is part of a grieving process for me. I really miss that dog.
> 
> I also do have a little training experience. Did schutzhund with my last GSD for about 18 months. Belonged to a club that had a bunch of people who had a ton more experience than me. We also had a very talented training director who was also a K9 officer. So we also had a bunch of cops who trained with us. I managed to get a BH with my pup, and we were making a lot of progress to a Schutzhund 1 when our club kind of imploded. So I'm not a total newby when it comes to GSD, or to training.
> 
> So, having gotten that long winded introduction out of the way, I do have a couple of comments/observations.
> 
> As someone who has done some Schutzhund and trained with dog handlers and dogs whose job description was taking down bad guys, I'm a little disturbed with some of the emphasis on how tough/aggressive, etc people want their dogs to be. Honestly, I've always seen it as my job to protect my dog, not the other way around. At best, we protect each other.
> 
> Also, as someone who has seen and trained with dogs that are as serious as a heart attack, I frankly don't think most of them are particularly suitable for civilians in general, and inexperienced dog handlers in particular. You need to be a very confident and assertive person, who either has a lot of experience as a handler, or at the very least is willing to spend a lot of time training with your dog to own one of these dogs. For 95% of the people out there, the best GSD is one who is stable, loyal, intelligent, who possesses a strong desire to please. If you plan to do a lot of obedience, SAR, or other training, a ton of ball drive would be also be good. But if you're primary concern is personal protection, buy a pump shotgun, a handgun or an AR and learn how to use it.


Thank goodness someone understands things. Great post.


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## Blanketback

Sunflowers said:


> All I see are dogs with a lot of aggression.


That's not what I saw at all. I saw 2 dogs that were barking in a non-threatening manner. The one on left seemed fine, but the one on the right was practically yipping, jumping and playful. They weren't snarling, they weren't showing any kind of threatening gestures at all. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I saw. 

The one on the left is how I want (expect) my GSD to react when someone comes to my gate. Of course, my gate is set way back against my house, enclosing my back yard. Nobody ever needs to get back there, but they'd definitely be considered uninvited once they've passed the pavers that lead to my front door. To me, this is one of the bonuses of having a GSD.


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## Sunflowers

Blanketback said:


> That's not what I saw at all. I saw 2 dogs that were barking in a non-threatening manner. The one on left seemed fine, but the one on the right was practically yipping, jumping and playful. They weren't snarling, they weren't showing any kind of threatening gestures at all. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I saw.
> 
> The one on the left is how I want (expect) my GSD to react when someone comes to my gate. Of course, my gate is set way back against my house, enclosing my back yard. Nobody ever needs to get back there, but they'd definitely be considered uninvited once they've passed the pavers that lead to my front door. To me, this is one of the bonuses of having a GSD.


OK, cool.


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## carmspack

welcome John C . your introduction gives me a good idea for another thread.
Just one comment on the serious as a heart attack dog , as this can be a definition of two entirely different dogs .
Here is my best attempt -- there is a type of dog that can be very strong -- but be UNBALANCED -- which means he is easily stimulated or aroused , has easy excitability . They come out fast and quick . They are have strong arousal coupled with POOR inhibition . I think these dogs are the oooed and awwwed over dogs in sport competition, appreciated for the physical speed and the speed in which they are able to go to bite . They are so impressed (the dogs) by stimulation in the environment they look like they are looking for a fight. 
Thresholds are low -- controllability is jeopardized , there is a lack of good judgment on part of the dog . There are a lack of levels to the response , everything is "missiles launched" . Capping problems .
Not balanced . Select group of potential owners . I would guess that a fair number of dogs in this group are sacrificed to poor management , poor training --- not understanding the dog .


What I call a balanced dog , the kind that I like , the type that can be workaday, on and off , on the sport field and in the home , is one who also has strong arousal -- aware of the environment and situations, but also is balanced with equally strong inhibition which causes the dog to , be at the ready , able to deal with the problem , but to think it out first . Judgement . No mistakes in wrongful bites . I think that "genetic obedience" dogs fit into this category . You can do good work with them because they are calmer , less hectic , more thoughtful . This is the dog that I would put into service.


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## carmspack

okay , the dogs that I saw on the youtubes , even of Bero which introduced this thread , was a dog that fit into the strong arousal , stimulated by everything in the environment. He , and later the younger dog in another youtube are dominated by the arousal , can't self calm after the initial excitement , nor be calmed by the owner or who ever is handling them. They appear out of control -- which they are . The lower threshold for excitability will keep them in that state .


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## Sunflowers

You know, I have a Czech line GSD with high suspicion. 

It is something I work with every day. 

I am not thrilled that his first instinct is to hackle up and bark at the tourist family arriving at the vacation home next door, with their kids and luggage. 

The instant he looks, I correct and tell him to leave it. Now, most of the time, he does. I am proud that I got him to this point, instead of barking at everyone he sees. 

If I had to do it again, I would get a dog with more stability, who only barks at someone who he identifies as a legitimate threat. 

So threads such as these where people are glorifying what I see as an undesirable trait, well, they do irritate me. 

I do not respect an owner of a GSD who thumps his chest and puffs up like a peacock because he can't be approached when he is with his dog. 
This, to me, is not what a good German Shepherd is supposed to be. Not even close.
And taking an easily aroused puppy to be snarled at and barked at by an aggressive dog behind a portal is just plain ridiculous "socialization." 

And now I will bow out of this thread.


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## carmspack

I agree Sunflowers -- first test in French ring is test of impartiality -- dog off lead , surrounded , must remain neutral in spite of "social" pressure - judged looking him over when you report for trial , shaking your hand etc.


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## Blanketback

I think it's impossible to say what is or isn't desirable, because everyone's living their own situation. Sunflowers, you might not like your dog barking at the tourists, since that house is a nice rental. But if it was a decrepit crack house, then your needs would change. I don't mind if my dog barks at the neighbors, but he's been taught "quiet" so it's fine. I don't want him to stop barking altogether. In my circumstances, that's what I want.


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## Sunflowers

Blanketback, that's fine, if that is what you want. 

I had a reply, but I did say I'm out, so I deleted it.


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## Blanketback

Aww, come on, say it  

I'm not picking on you. I'm just surprised that everyone thinks that their vision of the GSD is the right one. Either it's a man stopper, or a cuddle bug, but never both. What ever happened to that famous versatility? That's what I love so much about GSDs. Yup, TD by day, defender by night, lol. Mr. Do It All!


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## John C.

Hi Carmspack, 

I suspect you and I are more in agreement than disagreement. Your comments remind me of a dog that was in my schutzhund club. Leerburg dog, owned by an experienced dog handler who was bought specifically to compete in schutzhund. The helper could have hit this dog with a 2 x 4 and it wouldn't have backed down. But he was a real handful. Would literally start quivering before he took the field, he was so keyed up. And he wasn't all that interested in pleasing his hander. He might jump over the barrier to retrieve the dumbell, or he might take a wiz on it.

I agree, that having a serious dog, and a family dog are not mutually exclusive. But, and I think this is a big but, you have to have a great breeder, and an owner who is not only experienced but also willing to spend a lot of time doing some kind of training.

I'm concerned about someone who comes on this forum, spends a lot of time researching breeders for the "best" GSD and thinks his job is done once he's found a breeder and written the check. The kind of drives and temperment you need to get a dog like this are basically inconsistent with an inexperienced handler who is unwilling to spend a lot of time in training.


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## Blitzkrieg1

There are some dogs that are not approachable and it has nothing to do with nerves. I have seen police dogs like this. 
In the right dog its something that you can create if you so choose or inhibit if you want a neutral dog.


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## Vicb1

Does anyone know if John LaTorre from Ostschutz is still producing litters?

Thanks


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