# boy attacked at birthday party by family dog



## Dainerra

Nevada toddler killed by family dog at birthday party | Fox News

LAS VEGAS – A birthday party in the Las Vegas area ended in tragedy Saturday when a 1-year-old boy died hours after he was attacked by his family's pet dog.

The boy, who was not named, was celebrating his birthday late Friday at his grandmother's home in suburban Henderson, 17 miles southeast of Las Vegas, when he crawled over to the dog and starting petting him.

The 120-pound Mastiff/Rhodesian mix latched its teeth around the boy's head and began shaking him, the Las Vegas Sun reported, citing police.

Family members rushed to the boy and attempted to free him from the 6-year-old dog.

The 1-year-old was transported to a local hospital before being flown by helicopter to University Medical Center's trauma unit in downtown Las Vegas.

Police said the boy, who turned a year old Thursday, died at 1:45 a.m. Saturday local time.

The family said they had owned the dog since it was a puppy and it had never before displayed any signs of aggression. They voluntarily handed over the animal to Henderson Animal Control officers, who are expected to put it down in the coming days


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Oh my!!! Poor baby!!! 
What a horrible thing to happen to a baby. I'm at a loss of words.


----------



## codmaster

*Terrible!*


Was there any speculation as to any reason for the dog attack?


----------



## blehmannwa

I read that the child may have been pulling himself up on the dog's fur. The dog got the child's head and shook. It's tragic.


----------



## Stella's Mom

A very sad and tragic story. Of course the family voluntarily handed the dog over. I am surprised they did not shoot it dead while trying to dislodge the baby's head.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

Very sad.


----------



## Lilie

What a nightmare!


----------



## msvette2u

Horrible tragedy


----------



## Stella's Mom

Just saw the interview, how absolutely heartbreaking this story is.


----------



## jakes mom

OMG. How could you ever get something like that out of your head. So tragic for everyone.


----------



## Good_Karma

My heart goes out to the parents. I don't know how you'd ever recover from something like that.


----------



## msvette2u

*sigh* this was so preventable...

I hear "we have pictures of the baby crawling all over the dog, kissing the dog..." and I think, That dog did not want to be a living gym for the baby.

So very sad but why do parents think dogs should enjoy getting their ears pulled, their fur and tail pulled, their eyes and ears and nose poked!?

Family Paws Dog and Baby Support

This could have been prevented 
I think as responsible dog owners we owe it to the pet owning community to help educate parents these days. We grew up with dogs, and in our minds, probably Fido "enjoyed" being "mauled" by babies but the reality is they just don't. 
There's no reason they should be subjected to it, either. Teaching babies and toddlers respect for the animal (correct way to pet, "don't hit/pull, PET doggie!") from the beginning is what we should all be preaching.


----------



## Geeheim

How very sad and tragic. Also, totally preventable.


----------



## sparra

msvette2u said:


> *sigh* this was so preventable...
> 
> I hear "we have pictures of the baby crawling all over the dog, kissing the dog..." and I think, That dog did not want to be a living gym for the baby.
> 
> So very sad but why do parents think dogs should enjoy getting their ears pulled, their fur and tail pulled, their eyes and ears and nose poked!?
> 
> Family Paws Dog and Baby Support
> 
> This could have been prevented
> I think as responsible dog owners we owe it to the pet owning community to help educate parents these days. We grew up with dogs, and in our minds, probably Fido "enjoyed" being "mauled" by babies but the reality is they just don't.
> There's no reason they should be subjected to it, either. Teaching babies and toddlers respect for the animal (correct way to pet, "don't hit/pull, PET doggie!") from the beginning is what we should all be preaching.


How do you know all this??

How do you know the child was "mauling" the dog??

Geez.....even if the child was climbing or pulling on its fur the dog had no right to kill the child.....

Preventable? Maybe.....maybe not.....who are we to judge


----------



## msvette2u

I watched the video. The dad said the child crawled all over the dog and pulled on it "like it's climbing up a mountain".



> even if the child was climbing or pulling on its fur the dog had no right to kill the child


Where in my post do I say that?


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> *sigh* this was so preventable...
> 
> I hear "we have pictures of the baby crawling all over the dog, kissing the dog..." and I think, That dog did not want to be a living gym for the baby.
> 
> So very sad but why do parents think dogs should enjoy getting their ears pulled, their fur and tail pulled, their eyes and ears and nose poked!?
> 
> Family Paws Dog and Baby Support
> 
> This could have been prevented
> I think as responsible dog owners we owe it to the pet owning community to help educate parents these days. We grew up with dogs, and in our minds, probably Fido "enjoyed" being "mauled" by babies but the reality is they just don't.
> There's no reason they should be subjected to it, either. Teaching babies and toddlers respect for the animal (correct way to pet, "don't hit/pull, PET doggie!") from the beginning is what we should all be preaching.


Of course after the fact everyone could prevent it. A terrible tradgedy - but let us not gang up on the parents. 

Unless there is some proof of abuse by the baby to the dog - this dog was not right in the head and should be put down immediately! A normal family dog should NEVER (barring some real abuse!) EVER attack a family member, esp. a baby!

At the very most, perhaps one quick snap or nip MAYBE under some real duress but a full bite and a "Kill Shake" - NEVER!

My dog would never have made it out of the room alive if any of them had ever tried anything close to what happened. (Actually either myself or my dog would not have made it out of the room as I had some very large tough dogs!) but they would put up with a lot from our baby before just moving to another location!

A true tragedy!


----------



## Dejavu

What a horrible thing to happen! Poor baby and family.


----------



## msvette2u

While I am not "defending" what the dog did, no dog should be subjected to a child crawling all over and pulling on it. And this is why! Because maybe you don't know, the dog could have had an ear infection brewing, or a spinal issue, you just don't know. Maybe it's whacked - but then again it's 6 and has put up with the baby crawling on it since the baby could move.

I will never understand why people think it's okay.


----------



## selzer

A dog is only a dog. Sorry. A domestic animal. It does not have a _right_ to kill. But then it has no _rights_ and would not understand them if you presented him with them. If a larger dog is already stressed out with a troupe of people in the house in all of its normal spaces, and then suddenly the kid climbs on him and actually hurts him, he may react like the animal he is. 

An animal will grab and shake something if it is hurting him. Now I do not _know_ that the child hurt the dog, but I can guaranty you that some one year olds are like human wrecking balls. My nieces were small at one so I will go at two. They were both under 30 pounds, one could climb all over you and land on you, and it really did not hurt, the other's center of gravity or moment of inertia was such that she felt like she landed like a bowling ball on your back or leg or wherever. Don't hurt Aunt Susie! 

I am not blaming the victim here, but it is possible that this was preventable. Dogs are not ponies, and people really should not let their kids climb all over them. Some dogs will hide behind the couch to get away from the baby. But other dogs are less tolerant. They will put this dog down. And I am really not against them doing that. But people should teach their children that dogs are not stuffed animals. 

I guess I really do not understand the anger at the dog. The dog in this case is a dog that failed the 100% compatible for living with humans of all shapes and sizes test. And so the dog will be put down, partly because its owners will not want to have the dog that killed their kid around, and partly because no one else wants a dog that bit, shook, killed a baby, and partly because our society applies human laws onto animals, laws that a human with the same mentality would not be held responsible for their actions, but whatever. Society tends to put down dogs that cause death or serious injury to a child, probably to prevent that same dog from causing another tragic event.

Sad, tragic, horrible for everyone involved. These parents were right there. They did not leave the baby and dog alone together. Mayhap there was one or two things they might have done differently that would have prevented the tragedy, but many of us have perpetuated much worse mistakes with our children and others without having to pay any type of consequence, kind of like dodging a bullet. 

Tragedies come in many, many different forms. It was this child's time. And hopefully, we can get past the need to point fingers and place blame. At the end of the day, hind sight is 20/20.


----------



## msvette2u

> But people should teach their children that dogs are not stuffed animals.


This. 
The dog was 5yrs. old when the infant came along. As the child gets older and stronger, it's going to grab and hang on. 
Dogs do not come out of the womb "knowing" it's a child so they need to be careful with them. 
In fact, if never exposed to kids, they are often afraid of them. 

My point was we need to tell our friends these things - the link I posted has some very good information as to "why" these dogs just "suddenly snap" and it's never as sudden as people think. There's plenty of signs leading up to a bite, signs which need to be heeded.
No child should have to die because parents didn't heed dog's body language, and too many have already


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Very well said sue!!!


----------



## codmaster

"even if the child was climbing or pulling on its fur the dog had no right to kill the child "

Can anyone (except maybe someone who summers in the psychiatric ward) think that a baby crawling on a big dog would be any reason at all for the dog to react with a "Killing Bite"?

Be serious! Yes, a normal dog should be able to, and willing to put up with a great deal of little hands pulling etc. This is a freaking baby that we are talking about, not a big teenager!

I have a picture somewhere of our 4yo female GSD whining with my then just barely wallking son with a tight little grip on her tongue - she wouldn't even close her mouth to get him to stop! This from a 70lb female who did not hesitate to engage with an adult St Barnard on another ocassion!

That is what I expect from any normal adult dog!

Those of you who doubt it, should one day be able to watch a dog with a normal adult temperament toward little kids in their family.

BTW, folks have you ever seen what abuse an adult dog will put up with from a little puppy! That is NATURAL adult dog behavior toward a small puppy and they will eventually correct them as the puppy gets older; but it is a dog nip not a full blown attack!


----------



## KZoppa

codmaster said:


> "even if the child was climbing or pulling on its fur the dog had no right to kill the child "
> 
> Can anyone (except maybe someone who summers in the psychiatric ward) think that a baby crawling on a big dog would be any reason at all for the dog to react with a "Killing Bite"?
> 
> Be serious! Yes, a normal dog should be able to, and willing to put up with a great deal of little hands pulling etc. This is a freaking baby that we are talking about, not a big teenager!
> 
> I have a picture somewhere of our 4yo female GSD whining with my then just barely wallking son with a tight little grip on her tongue - she wouldn't even close her mouth to get him to stop! This from a 70lb female who did not hesitate to engage with an adult St Barnard on another ocassion!
> 
> That is what I expect from any normal adult dog!
> 
> Those of you who doubt it, should one day be able to watch a dog with a normal adult temperament toward little kids in their family.
> 
> BTW, folks have you ever seen what abuse an adult dog will put up with from a little puppy! That is NATURAL adult dog behavior toward a small puppy and they will eventually correct them as the puppy gets older; but it is a dog nip not a full blown attack!


 
well said. 

I posted this article on my facebook page last night.


----------



## selzer

Do dogs understand the concept of killing or death? Do they sit back and think, gee if I bite and then shake this child it will die? I don't think so. I think a dog is a dog, and some of them are super awesome with children, and will put up with way more than they should be expected to. But because some dogs will let a child poke their eyes and pull their ears, and climb all over it, one should not expect every dog to be that way. A one year old child can be very much bigger than a puppy, and yes they can actually hurt an older dog, especially if that dog does have some type of physical problem.


----------



## msvette2u

> But because some dogs will let a child poke their eyes and pull their ears, and climb all over it, one should not expect every dog to be that way


Exactly this. Why would anyone subject their dog to this?
I'm willing to bet that this Mastiff showed signs of being uncomfortable which nobody paid attention to. Perhaps that 'little nip' even occurred already and nobody thought anything of it and still let the child climb and pull. 



> Those of you who doubt it, should one day be able to watch a dog with a normal adult temperament toward little kids in their family.


I have no idea why my stating fact (not all dogs like to be pulled on and poked by small kids) translates into my not having a "safe" dog in the house. 
Truth? I don't have small kids now! So it doesn't matter to me if my kids do or don't like small kids poking them. When my granddaughter visited, we simply put the dogs up, not a big deal. And since my dogs weren't raised around small kids and barely have exposure to them, that is the safest and most logical thing to do.

When I did have an existing dog/child combo - Pepper was 6 when my daughter came along - I taught my daughter how to properly pet - not pull on or poke - my dog! Pepper was fine with my daughter but if she hadn't been I'd have simply put up boundaries, not gotten rid of my dog. She didn't even _see_ kids until she was 6 and my daughter was born.

Every child should be taught respect for animals and if they are too young to be taught that, then they shouldn't be crawling all over the dog, no matter what breed or size it is.




> BTW, folks have you ever seen what abuse an adult dog will put up with from a little puppy! That is NATURAL adult dog behavior toward a small puppy and they will eventually correct them as the puppy gets older; but it is a dog nip not a full blown attack!


It might be "natural" for some, but not for _all_ dogs. My 10yr. old female has no tolerance for puppies at all, and will snap at them, not injuring, but definitely telling puppy to go away.

Would you let a toddler in a pen with horses and expect the horses to keep their distance and not tromple the child? As selzer pointed out, dogs are animals too, each an individual.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Quite likely this dog didn't think the baby was a member of the pack, but just something similar to another family pet.

When you put a baby and a dog together, you are putting trust in an _animal_ and you are putting two lives in danger. All the cute baby+dog pictures in the world are never worth the risk.


----------



## selzer

Let's talk about ponies. Some ponies will put up with kids. No one expects a pony to not step on a kid. They make sure the kids are wearing boots, and they teach them to get out of the way, and not to walk or stand behind the pony or horse. If a horse or pony lets fly with their heals and hits a kid in the head, the child could die. Kids do die in the company of horses on occasion. It is not common, but it happens. 

When it happens, sometimes the horse is blamed. Some horses will roll over with a rider on them, some will bite and kick too. Some will run off to the barn and try to unseat a rider any way possible. But people continue to allow children to ride horses and ponies. People often have kids as young as two on horses. A horse is an animal similar to a dog, though it is a prey animal rather than a predator. It is larger and stronger and can have a tremendous fear reaction in some situations. 

Is it because a horse or a pony is larger that adults tend to respect them more around their kids? Maybe it is because owning horses is cost prohibitive, a bigger investment in time and money, and people who do have them generally understand better the power and possible dangers, and teach kids what to and what not to do around them. And keep babies safe.


----------



## selzer

Syaoransbear said:


> Quite likely this dog didn't think the baby was a member of the pack, but just something similar to another family pet.
> 
> When you put a baby and a dog together, you are putting trust in an _animal_ and you are putting two lives in danger. All the cute baby+dog pictures in the world are never worth the risk.


Sorry, but... I just have to disagree, lol:









P.S. I do kind of agree. I think you can know your dog very, very well and be relatively certain the dog will be fine, especially if the dog and baby are raised together, but it is still a dog, and there are always risks when you put animals together with babies.


----------



## sparra

I am still struggling to see what a....lets say....26lb baby could possibly do to a 120lb dog that could lead to such an obvious over reaction.....but anyway....again we are "speculating" that the baby actually did anything at all besides pull some fur.......

My point had nothing to do with how children should treat animals....it was the assumption that this was very preventable and that it would never have happened if the parents had not let the child near the dog.
This was a huge over reaction by the dog and I don't think you can blame the parents for not thinking this would ever happen.....I feel so sorry for them as who really does think that the family dog is ever going to rip their kids face off for pulling a bit of hair


----------



## Syaoransbear

I think the baby probably didn't do anything. IMO, the only time a dog should ever react like that is when faced with a life or death situation, not mild discomfort. There's no excuse for what this dog did.

This wasn't a warning or even an attempt to injure, the dog wanted to kill the baby, so I think it was prey drive related. A dog can changed its mind about something being prey and not prey at ANY time, especially if it's something that squeals and moves like a small wounded animal.


----------



## chloesmama2

Wow such a sad story.
The only thing I can say is that I had a dog that was the most loving animal to all,and loved children , babies especially and loved other animals. She found three baby
kittens in a yard one year that she adopted as her own,but even so she had a side a few times when she was stressed put that she attacked. It would just come out of the blue no reason. We lost her this last year due to a brain tumor,bit even the most trusting and best dog ever can get stressed or anxious and something like this can happen. So hard for all nvolved. Prayers for the family.


----------



## Mrs.K

A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog... IS A DOG!

Dogs and Babies are cute. How many times are we like "Aaaaaw... SO FRICKIN STINKIN CUTE" when somebody posts a picture about a baby and a dog. 

I wouldn't do it. Personally, even though I know and trust my dogs around anything and everything, I wouldn't do it. There is a line that should not be crossed and that is when it comes up to setting up a dog and baby for failure. 

It's a baby, for crying out loud. They can't think for themselves, so we have to do it for them. Just don't let them do it, period!


----------



## sparra

Mrs.K said:


> A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog... IS A DOG!
> 
> Dogs and Babies are cute. How many times are we like "Aaaaaw... SO FRICKIN STINKIN CUTE" when somebody posts a picture about a baby and a dog.
> 
> I wouldn't do it. Personally, even though I know and trust my dogs around anything and everything, I wouldn't do it. There is a line that should not be crossed and that is when it comes up to setting up a dog and baby for failure.
> 
> It's a baby, for crying out loud. They can't think for themselves, so we have to do it for them. Just don't let them do it, period!


Do what exactly?? What do you think this baby did to receive such harsh punishment??

And confused as to what you wouldn't do.....do you mean post a picture or let a baby near a dog period??

I have many pictires of my child with our dogs/past dog from babyhood right through to now......and to be honest they ARE FRICKIN STINKIN CUTE :wub:


----------



## ponyfarm

Mrs.K said:


> A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog... IS A DOG!
> 
> Dogs and Babies are cute. How many times are we like "Aaaaaw... SO FRICKIN STINKIN CUTE" when somebody posts a picture about a baby and a dog.
> 
> I wouldn't do it. Personally, even though I know and trust my dogs around anything and everything, I wouldn't do it. There is a line that should not be crossed and that is when it comes up to setting up a dog and baby for failure.
> 
> It's a baby, for crying out loud. They can't think for themselves, so we have to do it for them. Just don't let them do it, period!


I'm with you Mrs. K. Its not worth the risk..why put the baby and the dog in a position like that. I am the most carefull person to the point of extreme when people and animals interact. I was raised with and raised exotic animals. Things can happen very fast! The dumbest thing I ever saw was at the local zoo, they had the elephants out and a woman was allowed to sit her baby in FRONT of the elephant's foot for a neat photo-op. OMG..Luckily it didnt move and I still dont know why it was allowed. Mom thought it was sooo cool!

You really cant be too carefull around animals..they are animals..and they act like it sometimes at bad times.


----------



## Mr Shepherd

A dog is a dog. They might be your personal pet and you might have a great relationship with it, but they are an ANIMAL. A dog will respect someone who is firm but fair, but you should never forget they are in fact an animal.


----------



## Mrs.K

sparra said:


> Do what exactly?? What do you think this baby did to receive such harsh punishment??
> 
> And confused as to what you wouldn't do.....do you mean post a picture or let a baby near a dog period??
> 
> I have many pictires of my child with our dogs/past dog from babyhood right through to now......and to be honest they ARE FRICKIN STINKIN CUTE :wub:


Where did I say that the baby should be punished? It's not the babies fault, it's not the dogs fault, it's the adults fault to let it come that far in the first place. The dog simply acted like a dog and the baby couldn't think for itself, it did what babies do. Grab, pull, climb, crawl all over the place and the dog simply reacted to it. 

These things are completely preventable. 

What I wouldn't do is let a baby crawl all over a dog, simply because it sets both, the baby and the dog up for failure. Pictures of babies leaning on the dog is okay as long as it happens in a controlled situation.


----------



## Liesje

While I agree that kids should not be allowed to man-handle dogs I'd also never ever want a dog in my home that would kill-shake a toddler like it was a caught rabbit. A dog getting taunted into a corrective snap is one thing but killing? IMO the dog *does* know the difference. It's just a tragedy the family never had a reason to believe the dog would view their child as prey until it actually happened.


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> While I agree that kids should not be allowed to man-handle dogs I'd also never ever want a dog in my home that would kill-shake a toddler like it was a caught rabbit. A dog getting taunted into a corrective snap is one thing but killing? IMO the dog *does* know the difference. It's just a tragedy the family never had a reason to believe the dog would view their child as prey until it actually happened.



It could happen with any dog. You just never know and that is why, we as the adults, have to be cautious.


----------



## longhairshepmom

Of course a dog knows a "killing bite / attack" and how it differs from a nip. Of course they are still "animals" but come on ! They are very intelligent animals. I'm so sick and tired of this trend the last few years of excusing bad behavior and all the new age discipline and training. God forbid one uses a harsh word or worse a slap on the butt of the dog. No, it has to be all positive with rainbows and butterflies. No wonder we have so many bad tempered dogs. Seems like many have lowered their expectations or listen to the "positive only" training gurus. I KNOW the dogs temperament plays a role as well, but I have seen many rotten dogs that are only that way because of their owners "reasoning rather then disciplining"
All that said, I have had dogs ALL my life, I've trained dogs, I've fostered rescues. I have NEVER EVER abused a dog. I have NEVER beat on a dog. But you betcha that I send VERY CLEAR messages to the dogs in a language THEY UNDERSTAND. They do not reason. Dogs are very intelligent animals but they do not get the concept of "well, this nip was justified, that kid got on my nerves, but THIS nip I shouldn't do, because I don't like the way this kid looks at me". They understand "I don't nip/bite a human, period" They see things very black and white. My dogs have been taught that under no circumstances are they allowed to bite. Thats right. So many times we want the dogs to see US as the clear leaders, the ones that will take care of business. But then we want them to be able to clearly understand that in a bad situation they are allowed to take over leadership (then only) and actually attack. While that might work for some dogs, its not clear to others. While some dogs naturally will be protective in the right circumstance, it might confuse other dogs as to who is supposed to be in charge and when. 
I don't get my dogs to protect me. I PROTECT MY DOGS. Should they help out in a bad situation on their own, great. But I don't count on it and I don't expect it. I want them to be trustworthy family members. Leave it to the highly trained protection dogs to understand when and who to attack and when to let go. They are trained for that purpose. 
Long story short, people just don't take the time and effort to train clearly. To often dogs bad behavior towards some kids gets looked at as "justified" because said kids were taunting them. I rather train my dog that its NEVER EVER EVER ok to display any kind of aggression or nipping and then make sure I protect my dog by making sure noone abuses him.
A dog should handle a child petting/hugging/playing with it without a problem. Its not like the dog is getting killed. Dogs were working animals and their live wasn't all "spa" and they had to deal and it didn't kill them. 
Obviously this dog was rotten. I don't care what the 1 year old did, there is nothing a 1 year old could do that should cause the dog to latch on to its head and do the "death grip and shake" And again, they know very well this is what they are doing . They are killing. 
I know many won't agree with my philosophy and thats ok. Different opinions and all. But I see way to many spoiled rotten dogs that have no clear leadership with owners that will explain and reason everything away. Yet, its usually the SAME PEOPLE that go on and on how spoiled and rotten kids are nowadays and how much better they were back in the "spanking" and "discipline" times. 
Hm...


----------



## Mrs.K

THEY ARE NOT HUMAN! For crying out loud! They don't know that they are NOT supposed to kill. It's IN THEIR NATURE! 

Stop putting human feelings onto a dog. The dog merely got rid of an annoyance.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl

Liesje said:


> While I agree that kids should not be allowed to man-handle dogs I'd also never ever want a dog in my home that would kill-shake a toddler like it was a caught rabbit. A dog getting taunted into a corrective snap is one thing but killing? * IMO the dog *does* know the difference.* It's just a tragedy the family never had a reason to believe the dog would view their child as prey until it actually happened.



I agree with the bolded statement. Sasha doesn't like kids; she's not mean to them, but on the whole she would rather they not play with her. That being said, she is always extremely gentle. I've never once heard a growl or seen any indication of aggression at all. Of course, I always supervise 100% when there are kids around because you never know, and a warning nip from her to a small kid could be a serious deal. The reason I agree with your statement is because even though Sasha is not a huge fan of kids, when my friend's less than one year old baby grabbed and pulled out a tough of hair from Sasha's neck (something that if I did I would get the crinkle ear and she would have walked away) my sweet girl just licked the baby right on top of the head lol! A little gross, but sweet none the less. 

This idea that no dogs like it when kids crawl on them and what not, in my opinion is a bit off. Would I let kids crawl all over Sasha? Absolutely not. She doesn't like kids. My golden on the other hand LOVED all kids. He would purposely find any kid around and lay down next to them and wag his big, goofy, golden tail while they loved all over him. He was a big dog, very tall and over 100lbs of muscle, if he didn't want some kid climbing on him he could have very easily gotten up and moved, but he just really really loved kids. That boy would get so excited as soon as he saw a kid come over because in his mind kids=play/attention. Of course, he was raised with kids. I was in kindergarten when we got him and my brother is two years younger than me. So maybe that is why. 

I do agree that the adults are at fault here. It is a bad idea just to let kids do whatever they want to any dog. Kids and dogs should always be supervised together, and kids should be taught doggy manners. People should always use caution when it comes to animals and children. Unfortunately, I'm sure the parents realize this now, and I don't think anything other than condolences and prayers for the family are useful at this point.


----------



## msvette2u

> even so she had a side a few times when she was stressed put that she attacked. It would just come out of the blue no reason.


Every dog has a bite threshold. When you reach or go over it a bite may occur.

There are photos here with kids and dogs - if you look, you can see the dog's aren't always "comfortable" with kids, although people are ignoring those signs.

Family Paws K9 Body Language Family Paws



> I'm so sick and tired of this trend the last few years of excusing bad behavior and all the new age discipline and training


Excuse the dog? Hardly. I'm saying _do not set the dog up to fail._ And especially when a child's life is at stake. 

Lowered expectations? Because I believe a dog is an animal and not a reasoning creature?? As Mrs. K. stated - the dog got rid of a problem. 
The problem was not taking care of itself, no adult intervened to take care of the problem, the problem was not reading the body language and the problem may well have hurt the dog - at 6yrs. a Mastiff is entering it's senior years!

And the baby had been pulling itself up for months now, climbing on the dog, and maybe this dog warned with body language (see link above) that it was not happy with the situation. 

At some point, it's threshold was reached yet it did not bite. It did not snap or snarl. OR - maybe it did and people yelled at it, whatever. 
Either way, the threshold was reached and then some, and since nobody was intervening the dog took care of the situation itself, in the only way it was able to. Had the dog been a reasoning being and one with hands/opposable thumbs, it would have stood up and removed the child, and walked away. Perhaps had the dog had a voice it would have said "Please stop, you're hurting me". But as you know, dogs have neither hands nor thumbs nor voices except to growl and bite, since people failed to read it's body language (which was probably speaking loud and clear).

Very sad but hardly unpredictable. We do dogs a disservice when we say things like "it just snapped, out of the blue!"

If you have kids around your dogs, if you have grandkids that visit, if you have a neighbor with a dog and kid combo, please read the link and learn the body language.

Family Paws K9 Body Language Family Paws



> Signs dogs use with one another that we often miss.
> 
> These Calming Signals are often demonstrated but are missed before a growl or snap ever takes place.
> They may be combined or demonstrated on their own. Observing your dog in a variety of situations will allow you to see the following.
> 
> Licking lips/nose Usually you see this with or before turning away or looking down.
> Yawning at a time that being tired does not seem to apply.
> Turning head and/or body away. Dogs use this signal to avoid direct eye contact as that may be interpreted as threatening or inviting conflict.
> Lifting a paw. This one is often missed or seen as cute. Consider the entire situation.
> Shaking (like after a bath).
> Ears back or pinned against head.
> Closed mouth, tense muzzle and not panting. Dogs pant for many reasons. When hot, thirsty and sometimes stressed. When you are nervous or stressed you may sweat. A dog may pant.
> Scratching or sniffing suddenly on the ground or themselves.
> Half Moon Eyes. As if to say ” Can’t hear ya or pay attention to you I am busy here!”


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> It could happen with any dog. You just never know and that is why, we as the adults, have to be cautious.


 
I would bet my life that with many dogs *it is just as unlikley (but possible, of course!) as it would be for you to attack and kill your own child!*

Could it happen with any mother or father - of course! 

Is such a thing among the things that we would consider "normal" or even something to be on the lookout for, of course not! Same with adult "normal" dogs! They just do NOT attack and kill family members!!!!!!

Such an act is against their basic animal nature! Something is most definitely WRONG with them!


----------



## codmaster

*Reading "Dog Language"*

*This set of "calming signals" from *Turid Rugaas is most often mis interpreted. Maybe she can use it to "read" a dog but the vast majority of folks that I have talked to about them DO NOT understand and cannot use them because it is so much more than the simplistic approach that many advocates push.

For example, when I was practicing down stays and my then about 2yo male GSD sniffed the mat around him, my then obedience instructor told me that my dog was anxious and/or worried based on Turid's book. Bah, turns out that he liked to sniff! He was perfectly calm. Same with lifting a paw - we have a Rottie in our group that will almost always lift his paw when he sits with his owner - calmest friendly dog in the world.

Exactly the same with a closed muzzle, my own dog will often sit in the kitchen when we are in there and just stare at us with a closed muzzle and a very intent somber look. Should we take that as a threat or sign something is wrong?


In other words this list from her is NOT a way to immediately learn to read "dog language"

And was there any info given about the dogs behavior PRIOR to the savage attack on the baby? I didn't see any such data provided in the article.

Or perhaps some folks are just supposing??

"Signs dogs use with one another that we often miss.

These Calming Signals are often demonstrated but are missed before a growl or snap ever takes place.
They may be combined or demonstrated on their own. Observing your dog in a variety of situations will allow you to see the following.

Licking lips/nose Usually you see this with or before turning away or looking down.
Yawning at a time that being tired does not seem to apply.
Turning head and/or body away. Dogs use this signal to avoid direct eye contact as that may be interpreted as threatening or inviting conflict.
Lifting a paw. This one is often missed or seen as cute. Consider the entire situation.
Shaking (like after a bath).
Ears back or pinned against head.
Closed mouth, tense muzzle and not panting. Dogs pant for many reasons. When hot, thirsty and sometimes stressed. When you are nervous or stressed you may sweat. A dog may pant.
Scratching or sniffing suddenly on the ground or themselves.
Half Moon Eyes. As if to say ” Can’t hear ya or pay attention to you I am busy here!”


----------



## msvette2u

I'm not going to click the link for you, but the information is there. 
There's even photos to assist.


----------



## longhairshepmom

Mrs.K said:


> THEY ARE NOT HUMAN! For crying out loud! They don't know that they are NOT supposed to kill. It's IN THEIR NATURE!
> 
> Stop putting human feelings onto a dog. The dog merely got rid of an annoyance.


How is that "human feelings" ??
Its also in their nature to pee wherever they want to and actually to mark their territory. Do they learn NOT to pee in the house or to mark ? um..yeah, its called training and has nothing to do with human feelings.

Its also in their nature to dig and chew where they may please. Dig a nice den, etc. Can they be trained not to do this , or only on appropriate items ? Yes they can. No human feelings involved.

Rescue dogs are often "pulled on" "grabbed" "held onto" , do they turn and rip that persons face off because it may hurt ? 

Its in their nature to do many things they learn NOT TO DO. They also learn to do many things that are NOT in their nature. Its called training and has nothing to do with anthropomorphism.

In many cultures and in times past dogs were used to watch over children. They WERE trusted family members. They were trained. They had a job. My very earliest memory if of our family shepherd that was my babysitter. When I was one years old you wouldn't find me far from him. He pulled me out of a pond and saved my life. He was a GOOD dog. 

If people don't expect their dogs to be capable, then training makes no sense. Of course people should always always be careful and vigilant. Some dogs get senile and don't know what they do anymore, or drugs make them act out. There are brain tumors and other medical reasons.


----------



## msvette2u

> Rescue dogs are often "pulled on" "grabbed" "held onto" , do they turn and rip that persons face off because it may hurt ?


We've had dogs adopted into homes where, in each placement, the child in the home hugged and kissed the dog. Yes, the dog snapped at the child, making contact sometimes, sometimes not. 
Children have got to be taught that dogs don't appreciate hugs and kisses the way humans do.
Dogs will often tolerate this from us, and maybe kids, but it's not how dogs communicate so it's not natural to them to be hugged/kissed.

And yes, we've had rescue dogs that came in snapping and biting because they snapped/bit the kids they were being mauled by. I've witnessed children kicking dogs, and laying on them, picking them up inappropriately and sometimes dropping them.

Dogs are not stuffed animals to be tossed about, laid on, kicked and other "abuses" kids can inflict upon them. Parents need to teach kids to not do those things.

I think the safest thing we can do as pet owners is assume our dog will not or does not appreciate nor enjoy being used as a living punching bag or jungle gym. 
If it does eventually "enjoy" being crawled on and poked or pulled on, more the better, but why assume every dog is going to, or should like it?

It doesn't mean it's a bad dog, it just doesn't enjoy those things. If parents intervene the dog knows_ it_ doesn't have to resort to disciplining the child.



> Its called training and has nothing to do with anthropomorphism.


When people ascribe morals and reasoning to pets, it's called anthropomorphism. Sitting there and saying "Dogs should _know _it's a small child, and be careful/be kind", that is ascribing human morals to dogs. 
Dogs may, in fact, realize it's not a full grown human but (just as in the horse/pony discussion) cannot reason out that because it's smaller/different, they should instinctively take care of it or not injure it.


----------



## Mrs.K

Agree to disagree. 

I keep my dogs safe from molesting kids and you simply expect them not to react to anything... 

You know it's funny. We are trying to raise awareness for complete strangers not to molest our dogs yet, we expect them to completely put up with it with our own family. 

You know you live with an animal. You know it could happen with ANY dog and I mean ANY dog. 

Put them up for success, NOT for failure. 

Have dogs and kids only together in a controlled environment. NEVER leave your baby alone. Don't let them molest the dogs and most importantly KNOW your dogs limitation. 

You know why we've never had any incident whatsoever? Because we learned to respect dogs for what they are. They are animals and we knew they have claws and teeth that can hurt. 

My dad tend to say if any of the dogs would ever bite us, that dog would not survive the rest of the day and be put to sleep. 

I don't care what people did a hundreds of years ago. I'm pretty sure there were accidents just like we have them these days, only that we didn't have the mainstream media reporting each and every incident.


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> THEY ARE NOT HUMAN! For crying out loud! They don't know that they are NOT supposed to kill. It's IN THEIR NATURE!
> 
> Stop putting human feelings onto a dog. The dog merely got rid of an annoyance.



Is this really how dogs act though? I mean, my dogs pester each other and the victim will give a growl or a snark or just shake the other dog off and walk away. They've never killed each other over being annoyed. To me this incident sounds more like the dog went after the toddler as weak/prey or the dog for whatever reason felt legitimately threatened and decided to kill the opponent. Sure dogs kill but they also do a lot of other things like give calming signals, give warning signals, give corrections. I don't believe it is normal for a dog to kill something so much smaller and weaker than itself just for being pesty.


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Is this really how dogs act though? I mean, my dogs pester each other and the victim will give a growl or a snark or just shake the other dog off and walk away. They've never killed each other over being annoyed. To me this incident sounds more like the dog went after the toddler as weak/prey or the dog for whatever reason felt legitimately threatened and decided to kill the opponent. Sure dogs kill but they also do a lot of other things like give calming signals, give warning signals, give corrections. I don't believe it is normal for a dog to kill something so much smaller and weaker than itself just for being pesty.




When you look at dogs how they correct each other, let's say a scruff to the neck, that is deadly for a baby. 

There really is a simple fix to situations like that. Just don't let Babies crawl all over dogs, period. Why take that kind of chance in the first place? I just don't get it. 

Dogs are not humans, they are animals and while domesticated they still have primal instincts.


----------



## San

*Sad situation*

A sad sad situation for the family and the dog. 

I think I read somewhere that an average dog has the IQ of a 2-4 yo child? I also remember reading somewhere that a smart GSD may have the IQ of a 7 yo child? I don't know if I can count on a dog with the intelligence of a 2 yo, a 4 yo, or even a 7 yo to make a rational/reasonable choice in every single situation. 

I don't think it is okay for a dog to kill a small child, but then again, I don't think it is okay to have road rage just because someone cut you off. We humans can't even make rational decisions all the time, how can we expect a dog to do so? 

Hubby and I don't like children climbing over dogs/pulling their ears, but that's just us, we keep children away from my dogs, for us it is easy 'cuz we are childless by choice. On the very rare occasions when we do have visitors with small children, we crate the dogs, just one less thing to worry about.


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> When you look at dogs how they correct each other, let's say a scruff to the neck, that is deadly for a baby.


I usually don't agree w/your posts but THIS exactly. 
A dog or even a puppy has a protective coating of fur, and the back of the neck isn't a vulnerable spot on a dog. 
My Libby grabbed a Chihuahua and shook her - this was an adult Chi, but the Chi made the mistake of eating some popcorn that fell and Libby wanted it. Later that evening, she shook that Chi and I was sure she'd have killed it - the dog was about 6-7 lbs! But she was okay and walked away w/no ill effects. 
However, on a human infant, their muscles aren't developed and their skin is new and fragile. A "discipline" that might just make a puppy or dog think twice is liable to kill an infant. 



Mrs.K said:


> There really is a simple fix to situations like that. Just don't let Babies crawl all over dogs, period. Why take that kind of chance in the first place? I just don't get it.


Neither do I. I mean...people really do attribute human emotions to dogs and probably figured the dog is a "gentle giant" who loves the "attention". It's integral to read and interpret correctly, a dog's body language. Hindsight is 20/20 unfortunately. 



Mrs.K said:


> Dogs are not humans, they are animals and while domesticated they still have primal instincts.


This too. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
As mentioned, when my granddaughter visited, I looked at all my dogs - Libby was giving the baby the stink eye and immediately got put outside until the baby was gone. 
Maybe she'd have left the baby alone - but _why take the risk_!?
It is just not worth it to "prove" your dog is "nice"!

I'd advise anyone reading this who think it's okay for the baby to crawl on and poke/pull the dog, to lay down and let an 18mos. old baby crawl on you unrestrained and pull your hair, ears, poke your eyes, etc. See if now and then, it doesn't feel so great, or even hurts. 
And think of the dog, not being able to even reason that it's a child (because really they can't) and not being able to say "Hey, be careful!" with anything but a raised lip.


----------



## LARHAGE

I think this dog reacted in a dangerous manner, I grew up with Shepherds and had 5 siblings, our dogs were part of our family, we did stupid kid things and never in a million years would this behavior have been justified, a quick snap and a growl. well I could see a dog doing that, though ours never did, but grabbing the head of a baby and shaking it, and than having to have the baby pried out of it's mouth? I would have shot that dog myself, this is simply a dangerous, unstable dog, I have little dogs that don't act like this with kids, completely unacceptable behavior.
Ironically last month in a city near me another Mastiff attacked and killed a neighbors 5 year old child at a Birthday party, and the week before that another one attacked a toddler, maybe it's the dogs and not the children. I have a Mastiff across the street from me, it growls at it's owner if corrected, or scolded, they have had nothing but aggression issues with it.


----------



## jakes mom

This case is just so tragic. And absolutely nothing any of us are saying, should detract from the awfulness of it, but understandably as dog owners we have to wonder why a dog would possibly do such a dreadful thing. 

I don't believe a normal dog would do this - unless it has been so severely punished for growling, snarling, snapping etc. - it was too terrified to show such emotions. 

I understand the dog will be tested for rabies- it would interesting to know if he will also be checked out for any other illness, such as tumour, spinal problems etc. IMO, apart from a brain problem, I don't even believe an ill dog would kill a baby - warn and snap maybe - but not kill. 

I have no intention of offending anyone - it's just my personal feelings. But I must admit if a dog of mine, hunted and killed other small creatures, such as birds, rabbits, squirrels etc, I would not have them around small children. 
_______________
Sue


----------



## Lilie

Honestly, I just don't get it. I have three horses that have never kicked. But I certainly wouldn't tell you to walk up behind them and pull their tail. Just because something hasn't happened in the past, doesn't mean it couldn't ever happen.

I don't think I've ever read an article regarding a tragic dog attack and the owner state, "The dog has only attacked a couple of times." It always states they never saw it coming. 

A hard lesson for the rest of us.


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> When you look at dogs how they correct each other, let's say a scruff to the neck, that is deadly for a baby.
> 
> *K, there is a HUGE difference in a dog reacting as if they are correcting either one another or esp. correcting a puppy and what that dog did to the baby who crawled on him (at least from what we have read). If you can't see the difference, then of course you would not be able to see the difference between a trustworthy dog and a "psyco" dog.*
> 
> There really is a simple fix to situations like that. Just don't let Babies crawl all over dogs, period. Why take that kind of chance in the first place? I just don't get it.
> 
> *How would you keep a family pet away from a baby 100% of the time? I personally would NEVER have a dog that I couldn't trust with my baby/kid. And of course a parent should not leave a baby alone (with or without the dog being present!!!)*
> 
> Dogs are not humans, they are animals and while domesticated they still have *primal instincts*.


 
*To KILL a baby? You consider this a "primal" instinct of a GSD? *

*If so, I bet that you never turn your back on yours, do you? Or maybe you just "know" that your dogs would never execute their "primal instinct" on you???? Would they - maybe if you reached down to pet them or heavan forbid, maybe pulled their fur a little when you were brushing them one day.*

*??????????????????????????????????????????????????????*


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> When you look at dogs how they correct each other, let's say a scruff to the neck, that is deadly for a baby.


And yet, almost every person I know has been bit by a dog at some point in their life, even as a little kid, and is still alive to tell about it. I was corrected in the face by an adult male GSD as a toddler and he certainly did not lock on my neck and shake me to death. I annoyed him and he snapped at me. I've observed my dogs correcting each other many, many times as I am very lenient with how they interact and like to have a cohesive pack that doesn't require micro-management and I've never seen any one of them correct another (or any dog) by latching on the neck and violently shaking. I don't like to speculate but based on the article I did not get the impression that the child died due to a single bite/snap on the neck, it sounded more like the dog locked on and shook. Now if my dogs ever did THAT to each other there would be some serious intervention if not more...


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje, we are talking about infants. You can't compare an infant to a five year old or adult. 

Just don't take the chance. We know the dangers. I am not talking about micro-managing but common sense. Not having a baby climb all over a dog, pulling, tugging, crawling... etc. is not micro management but COMMON SENSE.


----------



## sashadog

msvette2u said:


> This too. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
> As mentioned, when my granddaughter visited, I looked at all my dogs - Libby was giving the baby the stink eye and immediately got put outside until the baby was gone.
> Maybe she'd have left the baby alone - but _why take the risk_!?
> It is just not worth it to "prove" your dog is "nice"!


I agree completely... Even if a dog "shouldn't" react to a young child like this if the adults decide to take the risk, a child (and eventually the dog) could pay with his or her life. How is that even kind of worth it? People throw a fit because their dog or other dogs might not want to put up with annoying, albeit normal, child behavior and so they're willing to put their child's life on the line to have a "sweet family dog that puts up with anything. What a gooooood dog!" And then, boom, they've had enough and people are shocked... It's so sad and the true victims (the child and the dog) are totally innocent in the situation.

*Disclaimer:* Some dogs do just have a screw loose and attack over and beyond what a normal dog would and that does not take away from the tragedy that every dog attack is. This is not in defense of unstable and aggressive dogs.


----------



## Liesje

I agree on the common sense thing but I disagree that this is normal and acceptable behavior for a dog. I'm not sure what being five years old has anything to do with it (dog or kid? not sure what you're referring to). If an adult dog can correct an 8 week old puppy without killing it, then it can correct a 1 year old without shaking it to death. If any of my dogs behaved this way towards one of the other dogs they'd be gone. I realize a human is different but you were the one that brought it up as normal dog behavior between dogs and I disagree.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

When a dog grabs and shakes something violently, it's intent is to kill. That is not the same as a correction. My dogs correct each other all the time, never have they grabbed the other and shook them violently. When Sydney caught a squirrel, though, she shook the crap out of that thing till it was dead and then she ate it. Dog's know the difference.


----------



## Lilie

I had a large GSD mix when my daughter was 4. He was asleep at the end of our hall (on cool marble) and she was taking a nap. She awoke ran out of the room and jumped on the dog. He bit her in the face, which resulted in two pale black eyes. No broken skin. Obviously, my daughter screamed (and cried)... he urinated all over himself. 

It could have been so much worse. But the dog stopped in mid reaction - something that is natural to him. We rescued him at two - and he was four when this happened. First and only time he ever even mouthed anybody.


----------



## Stosh

It may be overkill but I always put Stosh in a crate or out in the fenced yard when there are children under 12 or so at our house. It's just not worth risking a tragedy like this


----------



## LARHAGE

Lilie said:


> I had a large GSD mix when my daughter was 4. He was asleep at the end of our hall (on cool marble) and she was taking a nap. She awoke ran out of the room and jumped on the dog. He bit her in the face, which resulted in two pale black eyes. No broken skin. Obviously, my daughter screamed (and cried)... he urinated all over himself.
> 
> It could have been so much worse. But the dog stopped in mid reaction - something that is natural to him. We rescued him at two - and he was four when this happened. First and only time he ever even mouthed anybody.


That would be a more normal reaction, unfortunate, but understandable, hence just one quick defensive bite, now how would you feel towards that dog if it grabbed your daughter and shook her to death? I see that as completely cognizant behavior on the dogs part, it's INTENDING to do serious damage. I myself could forgive the first situation, no way in hades the second, the dog's dead, plain and simple.


----------



## Dainerra

also, we are hearing what the PARENTS saw happen. We know how good the average owner is at reading/understanding dog behavior. No one ever sees a bite coming, because they don't know what all those little warning signs mean.

People correct dogs for growling at the baby. People will let the baby follow after the dog if the dog gets up and moves away. People encourage the baby to pull and pat and tug on the dog. For a lot of people, the dog isn't allowed to "not like" playing with the baby. 

No matter the cause, it's tragic. We have a dead baby, a devastated family, and the dog is the only one responsible?


----------



## sparra

Mrs.K said:


> The dog merely got rid of an annoyance.


Really?? There is just no arguing against logic like that.....


----------



## GatorDog

While I agree that the parents probably shouldn't have been allowing the baby to be on top of this dog, I don't think that warrants the dog killing the child. That bite wasn't just a 'correction'. To grab and shake like that is to kill. And a dog knows the difference between how to correct and how to kill. My dogs correct each other all the time. Never do they ever grab and shake the other. I've personally been bitten plenty of times and again, never been shaken by a dog. That's a totally different story..


----------



## Dainerra

Which, I think is kind of the point. It's very unlikely that the dog just one day decided "I'm going to kill the baby." That leaves the options of:
-dog is mentally ill 
- dog was in some type of extreme pain
-dog had tried appeasements or warnings in the past that weren't recognized

In each scenario other than the first, there is human error and misunderstanding at best, negligance at worst. 
All some of us are saying is, perhaps it would be better suites for most people to take more care in how the allow their kids and dogs to interact.


----------



## msvette2u

> When a dog grabs and shakes something violently, it's intent is to kill.


Do they really _think_ that though? 
How many of your dogs play daily with things they shake? We used to play tug of war with our little mixed breed mutt when growing up. Our Boston shakes the daylights out of every toy she gets.
And a 130lb. Mastiff x, a very powerful dog - it won't take much of a "shake" to break a 1yr. old baby. Even the opening of it's jaws and taking a hold of the child's head would have most likely killed it. 

I know my Libby shook that Chi and didn't harm it, but it wasn't a sustained shake and it wasn't "violent" per se- plus a dog's musculature in the neck region is completely different than a dog's. 



> Which, I think is kind of the point. It's very unlikely that the dog just one day decided "I'm going to kill the baby." That leaves the options of:
> -dog is mentally ill
> - dog was in some type of extreme pain
> -dog had tried appeasements or warnings in the past that weren't recognized
> 
> In each scenario other than the first, there is human error and misunderstanding at best, negligance at worst.
> All some of us are saying is, perhaps it would be better suites for most people to take more care in how the allow their kids and dogs to interact.


Don't ever assume your dog "likes" being hugged and kissed by the kids. Teach kids to respect the dog. _Should_ a dog tolerate all sorts of physical contact from kids? SURE. 
But then there's reality and reality dictates that sometimes, they just don't. 
If there's any doubt at all (if small kids don't live in your home) put your dog up, crated or well-away from the kids. If small kids live in the home, always always always supervise and at the least sign of "I'm tired of this" by the dog, remove child from dog, and let them play another day. 

Small lives are just too precious to take for granted. I cannot even imagine living with myself if I lost a child this way.


----------



## Packen

My opinion is that very few people can actually read dogs. Something like this does not happen overnight, there would have been plenty warning signs that no one read and continued on. Some dogs get defensive/insecure when approached by toddlers or similar stimuli, let it continue and tragedy can occur. It sounds simple but that's what it is. Can not even imagine what the family is going through.


----------



## GsdLoverr729

Packen said:


> My opinion is that very few people can actually read dogs. Something like this does not happen overnight, there would have been plenty warning signs that no one read and continued on. Some dogs get defensive/insecure when approached by toddlers or similar stimuli, let it continue and tragedy can occur. It sounds simple but that's what it is. Can not even imagine what the family is going through.


This!
I would be crushed if my dog, or any dog for that matter, killed my niece. For that matter I would likely become depressed beyond measure if it was my own kid. There had to have been warning signs, I agree. The trouble is that people either think it is funny behavior, correct in a manner that doesn't work on the dog or just don't notice/understand.


----------



## Dainerra

I think this video is the perfect example of that.





Dog is giving lots of common signals, but is corrected for them. The dog even tries to turn away, but the baby continues patting on the dog.
Is it likely that the dog is going to turn around and kill the baby? Well, at that eye level it wouldn't take much. Would I find it an unreasonable behavior if the dog lunged at the baby in an aggressive manner? Not really! The dog is saying in every way that it can "Hey, I would like to be left alone" How many times can a creature do that before one day it thinks "this puppy won't listen to anything else!"
The funny thing is, like with this video, people allow their kids to do this to "prove" that their dog isn't mean. 
It reminds me of the "fake hand in the food test" The video where the woman practically beats the dogs in the face with it, just to see if she can get a reaction from the dogs? I saw it on a documentary once. I checked Google, but can't find it this morning.
She puts the fake hand in the shelter dog's food. 
Dog doesn't react aggressively.
She pokes dog in the side, no reaction.
She puts hand into food again, pushing the dog out of the food. dog steps back from bowl until she takes the hand away.
She starts roughly patting the dog on the head while eating "Like a child would" hard smacks!
She keeps patting the head and rubbing the face, even poking the dog in the mouth.
Dog grabs hand and gives it a rough shake and a growl.
Woman deems the dog to be aggressive and unadoptable.


----------



## Samba

Terrible loss for the family. 

I see dogs as animals very very much. Some dogs are better than others in some situations. Some have calmer temperament, some better nerves and tolerance, etc. it is not an across the board thing in dogs and all fall somewhere on a scale. Dogs can be smart but I don't compare their smarts to human brains. A smaller prefrontal cortex makes a big difference in species!

I don't put babies and animals together but for a carefully controlled interactions. I never did understand the practice, but fortunately, I was raised by farm people who had many many animals and dogs. We had awesome dogs when the kids were young. The dogs slept guarding the baby room and really took on a protective role with little ones. But, there was no molesting the dog. I was so very careful to not ever let baby hands get hold of fur. I have had babies grab my hair, jewelry etc. because of the way baby hand reflexes work they grab hard and it can hurt. 

I have a baby Sheltie pup. Like youngsters, he is a royal pest. I don"t let him bother the other dogs. I don't fear that they would kill him, but it could happen because they are animals. 

I am so sad for the loss of a child. What a tragic, difficult time for the family.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

msvette2u said:


> Do they really _think_ that though?
> How many of your dogs play daily with things they shake? We used to play tug of war with our little mixed breed mutt when growing up. Our Boston shakes the daylights out of every toy she gets.
> And a 130lb. Mastiff x, a very powerful dog - it won't take much of a "shake" to break a 1yr. old baby. Even the opening of it's jaws and taking a hold of the child's head would have most likely killed it.


Yes, they do. That's why they shake squeaky stuffed toys, in their mind they are "killing" it. That's why my dog shakes toys but never grabs another dog and shakes it. 

The dog in question's unstable behavior obviously didn't just come out the day it killed the baby. This dog was probably showing aggressive or dominant tendencies for years, but the owners either never picked up on it or didn't recognize it properly.


----------



## Mrs.K

Samba said:


> Terrible loss for the family.
> 
> I see dogs as animals very very much. Some dogs are better than others in some situations. Some have calmer temperament, some better nerves and tolerance, etc. it is not an across the board thing in dogs and all fall somewhere on a scale. Dogs can be smart but I don't compare their smarts to human brains. A smaller prefrontal cortex makes a big difference in species!
> 
> I don't put babies and animals together but for a carefully controlled interactions. I never did understand the practice, but fortunately, I was raised by farm people who had many many animals and dogs. We had awesome dogs when the kids were young. The dogs slept guarding the baby room and really took on a protective role with little ones. But, there was no molesting the dog. I was so very careful to not ever let baby hands get hold of fur. I have had babies grab my hair, jewelry etc. because of the way baby hand reflexes work they grab hard and it can hurt.
> 
> I have a baby Sheltie pup. Like youngsters, he is a royal pest. I don"t let him bother the other dogs. I don't fear that they would kill him, but it could happen because they are animals.
> 
> I am so sad for the loss of a child. What a tragic, difficult time for the family.


Exactly that! I just don't get it. Who knows what dogs see in babies and how they view them. 

You don't have to micromanage... just use common sense around dogs, especially with Babies.


----------



## msvette2u

Oh my GOSH. That vid is painful. The dog clearly does not want to be there, is hiding his head and yet is trapped and cannot escape.
So who'd think this dog is "unstable" if he attacks the baby right now?? Who'd "take him out back and shoot him" when they clearly put the dog in an uncomfortable position by doing this!?
Moreover...WHY!? Seriously, why let this baby grab handfuls of hair "Are you PETTING THE DOGGIE!?" Why doesn't she sit with the baby, giving the dog an "out" (not pinning it to the couch) and show the kid how to pet the dog? Petting is not grabbing handfuls of hair and ears and expecting the dog to enjoy it!
This dog is giving off signals left and right that it is not enjoying the baby's "attention" that are all being ignored. 
And this is why so many kids get bitten. Another few mos. the child will be older and more mobile and the dog will still be sitting there going "please don't do that" which mama keeps ignoring. 
She obviously thinks she's a brilliant owner, with her German commands and all 

PS. Gotta love her comment - "Trying to rid the stereotype that GSD's are vicious and aggressive dogs."
*sigh*



Dainerra said:


> I think this video is the perfect example of that.
> German Shepherd and 5 month old baby - YouTube
> 
> Dog is giving lots of common signals, but is corrected for them. The dog even tries to turn away, but the baby continues patting on the dog.
> Is it likely that the dog is going to turn around and kill the baby? Well, at that eye level it wouldn't take much. Would I find it an unreasonable behavior if the dog lunged at the baby in an aggressive manner? Not really! The dog is saying in every way that it can "Hey, I would like to be left alone" How many times can a creature do that before one day it thinks "this puppy won't listen to anything else!"
> The funny thing is, like with this video, people allow their kids to do this to "prove" that their dog isn't mean.
> It reminds me of the "fake hand in the food test" The video where the woman practically beats the dogs in the face with it, just to see if she can get a reaction from the dogs? I saw it on a documentary once. I checked Google, but can't find it this morning.
> She puts the fake hand in the shelter dog's food.
> Dog doesn't react aggressively.
> She pokes dog in the side, no reaction.
> She puts hand into food again, pushing the dog out of the food. dog steps back from bowl until she takes the hand away.
> She starts roughly patting the dog on the head while eating "Like a child would" hard smacks!
> She keeps patting the head and rubbing the face, even poking the dog in the mouth.
> Dog grabs hand and gives it a rough shake and a growl.
> Woman deems the dog to be aggressive and unadoptable.


----------



## Cheerful1

Joey shakes all of his stuffed animals, and humps others. I'm still relatively new to dog ownership, so I don't know what his intent is.

His former home had very young children and he was good with them, but I would still keep him away from babies. 

As good as he is with us and other adults he knows, he's still a dog.


----------



## msvette2u

> Dogs can be smart but I don't compare their smarts to human brains. A smaller prefrontal cortex makes a big difference in species!


This is extremely insightful. I do not think the Mastiff in the story was "unstable", rather it lost it's temper. Dogs can have lightening changes of "emotions", including anger. And no ability to reason like humans do. 
This is what I mean by "assigning human morals" and values to dogs, they simply are not capable of reasoning the way we are. And often our reasoning is faulty and clouded by emotions. Someone pointed out how people experience road rage; I think the Mastiff just had a case of mini-rage, and even the family said he was "back to normal" afterwards. He did not think he did anything wrong, wasn't "ashamed" that he killed the child. 

I think the worst thing people can do in any scenario like this is say a dog is "unstable", rather than acknowledge he's just been pushed too far with no intervention and he'd "had enough" that day. 
I still think he ought to be put to sleep because I'd never want a dog that went "that far" in my home, but that _doesn't_ mean he's defective or unstable. 
Any dog has the capability to do what he did, any of them, and the larger they are, the less force it takes to injure or even kill. 

Most dogs don't go that far, but when you watch this vid with the GSD you can see the desperation in his eyes, and you get the idea that yes, even he could "snap" in the blink of an eye, and then the news will say "OH, he was wonderful with that baby, even licked it's face every day!"


----------



## Stella's Mom

I am reading this thread very carefully as we will have a new baby in the family in late October. My girl is 15 months now and has never been around an infant/toddler.

She is very sweet, but has never had a baby tugging her and jumping on her, etc, except one time while at Petsmart and I had her in a down position at the register. A 4 year old out of nowhere came from behind us, threw himself on my dog and started kissing her. I thank God she did not react and allowed the kid to do that. The father of the kid justifiably freaked out when he saw that his kid ran up to a 70 pound GSD and threw himself on her. He quickly apologized and went to another register.

That incident scared me as I did not see that coming and by the time I could have reacted my dog could have bit this child. It has made me much more conscious of things that you don't see coming from behind you.


----------



## msvette2u

Congrats on the new baby!! Go over this site very carefully - 

Family Paws Dog and Baby Support

I'd love if all parents became educated, but sadly, many don't.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

What a tragic time for the parents, I can't even begin to imagine the pain they are going through. 

My dog Zeus was a therapy dog, he took a lot of abused from the kids at a special school. The kids don't know better, they pulled his tail, ears etc. Zeus stayed calm and solid the whole time. 

When we brought home our son, he could not wait to meet him, he was so excited, he laid down next to him, licking my son's face every chance he got. 

Zeus was never ever mouthy with kids, having said that, I never ever left him alone with any kids either. I do the same with Koda.


----------



## Stella's Mom

Selzer, you said it all. Very good post.


----------



## Stella's Mom

Thanks MsVette.


----------



## LARHAGE

Josie/Zeus said:


> What a tragic time for the parents, I can't even begin to imagine the pain they are going through.
> 
> My dog Zeus was a therapy dog, he took a lot of abused from the kids at a special school. The kids don't know better, they pulled his tail, ears etc. Zeus stayed calm and solid the whole time.
> 
> When we brought home our son, he could not wait to meet him, he was so excited, he laid down next to him, licking my son's face every chance he got.
> 
> Zeus was never ever mouthy with kids, having said that, I never ever left him alone with any kids either. I do the same with Koda.


 
Have you seen the Youtube video on Julie's blog? I tried to paste it here but this computer is not working for me, in any event, that dog is the kind of dogs we grew up with, and they were all German Shepherds, maybe you can post it here, I give up :O


----------



## Josie/Zeus

CUTE! Little Boy and His Dog - YouTube

:wub::wub:


----------



## GSDolch

Josie/Zeus said:


> CUTE! Little Boy and His Dog - YouTube
> 
> :wub::wub:



Oh that dog looks so distressed 

Really though, :wub:

I'm going to keep my thoughts on dogs/kids to myself for now. IMO there was probably problems with the dog from the time the baby came home and it just wasn't seen. We don't KNOW the details, but IMO, this was over the top and I do think that dogs know the difference between killing something and correcting something. On a basic instinct level this is known and has nothing to do with human emotions. 

My heart goes out to the family.


----------



## Kaity

That's awful . Not only did they lose their baby, but have to cope with their beloved family pets loss as well.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

GSDolch said:


> IMO there was probably problems with the dog from the time the baby came home and it just wasn't seen. We don't KNOW the details, but IMO, this was over the top and I do think that dogs know the difference between killing something and correcting something. On a basic instinct level this is known and has nothing to do with human emotions.
> 
> My heart goes out to the family.


Totally agree with you. There's no human emotion involved when talking about the difference between killing and correcting. I poke and squeeze and grab my male Dalmatian, heck I even use him as a pillow sometimes when we are laying around. I can tell you with absolute certainty, he would NEVER grab any part of my body and shake it violently. Even Sydney, who doesn't like being touched much at all (she's just not a cuddley type of dog like my male) would never use the kind of force that the dog in the article did. What she WILL do is yelp/bark and put her mouth on you, but not with pressure, to say "hey, I don't like that!". I'd really never want to be around someone's dog who says that dog's don't know the difference!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Activists Campaign To Save Dog That Killed 1-Year-Old | Care2 Causes



Fault, blame, don't care, whatever...come on! So many safe and wonderful dogs who will die today, also dogs who are scared and shut down and need extensive rehab but who are not aggressive, who are being killed RIGHT NOW as I type this and I just don't understand.


----------



## sashadog

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Activists Campaign To Save Dog That Killed 1-Year-Old | Care2 Causes
> 
> 
> 
> Fault, blame, don't care, whatever...come on! So many safe and wonderful dogs who will die today, also dogs who are scared and shut down and need extensive rehab but who are not aggressive, who are being killed RIGHT NOW as I type this and I just don't understand.


Thats ridiculous... I agree with your point. So many wonderful dogs need a chance and are getting killed because there aren't enough resources to help them, why spend a lot of money and time to save a dog that killed a child?


----------



## LARHAGE

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Activists Campaign To Save Dog That Killed 1-Year-Old | Care2 Causes
> 
> 
> 
> Fault, blame, don't care, whatever...come on! So many safe and wonderful dogs who will die today, also dogs who are scared and shut down and need extensive rehab but who are not aggressive, who are being killed RIGHT NOW as I type this and I just don't understand.



I agree there are probably no less than 100 dogs in that very shelter a **** of a lot more deserving than that dog to live, dogs who are there through no fault of their own, not for attacking and killing their own family member, and a child at that, if I owned that dog I would INSIST they destroy him immediately.


----------



## Mjxx

I do not think they should have put the baby with the dog.
If the dog did not grow up around babies then it shouldn't be put with one.
I don't know the whole story exactly so I wouldn't be able to say exactly but I wouldn't trust my 6 year old dog around my 1 1/2 year old nephew even if he had grown up around small children.I wouldn't be able to take that risk.


----------



## marinehoney

Couldnt read through all the posts, but this Mastiff obviously had terrible tempermant and was wrong in the head! My neighbor had a full grown mastiff/mix named Biff. When I was 2, I was stepping over him, petting him, and being lovey. He was laying on his side and while I was stepping back over him I stepped right on his penis! He shot up and yelped and put his mouth around my head, retracted, and started licking my face, and layed back down. 
THAT is a good family dog. family Dogs SHOULD be expected to take crap from kids and if they show signs that they cant, they need the friggin boot. If Rogue or Thor ever nipped at my son, growled at him, or something of the sort....bye bye. I have a no tolerance law about dogs acting aggressivly towards children. If they ever bit my son aggressivly or hurt him like that, I would go to my room, get the 38. and put a bullet through their head. My prayers go out to the family at this time.


----------



## Courtney

LARHAGE said:


> I agree there are probably no less than 100 dogs in that very shelter a **** of a lot more deserving than that dog to live, dogs who are there through no fault of their own, not for attacking and killing their own family member, and a child at that, if I owned that dog I would INSIST they destroy him immediately.


I haven't commented in this thread but agree with the above statement 100%


----------



## codmaster

Mjxx said:


> I do not think they should have put the baby with the dog.
> *If the dog did not grow up around babies then it shouldn't be put with one.*
> 
> *Perhaps true, but I think they said that they had had the dog for a long time!*
> I don't know the whole story exactly so I wouldn't be able to say exactly but I wouldn't trust my 6 year old dog around my 1 1/2 year old nephew even if he had grown up around small children.I wouldn't be able to take that risk.


 
We had multiple GSD's from before my son was born till he was grown and out to college.

Never once would we worry at all about the dog attacking the baby - that would be ridiculous. *Why in the world would anyone have a family pet that could not be trusted with your own children? Not me!*

A normal adult GSD (or most any breed) should be completely trustworthy with a child of any size. Worst might be they knock them over! Even there, our dogs would seem to realize that the little ones are a little more unstaedy and act accordingly!


----------



## selzer

The dog should be put down. I would not say deserving of death or deserving of life, but to protect other children and families from tragedy and heartache, this dog should be PTS. It definitely has a problem whether it is genetic or caused by poor handling/management doesn't really matter, the dog should be put down to protect children. 

I really do not believe in bad dogs, because we perpetuate breedings and are responsible for the outcome, or we raise them and socialize them and are responsible for the outcome, but for whatever reason an animal cannot be made to live with humans safely, then the domestic animal needs to be put down, not because he deserves it, but because he is an animal that has no place in the wild and no place out of the wild. They should do it humanely. 

How dare people who are not involved in this tragedy should go out of their way to perpetuate this family's grief by trying to prolong the dog's life -- that kind of ticks me off. There should be no question about this. The dog should be euthanized.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> *The dog should be put down. I* would not say deserving of death or deserving of life, but to protect other children and families from tragedy and heartache, this dog should be PTS. It definitely has a problem whether it is genetic or caused by poor handling/management doesn't really matter, the dog should be put down to protect children.
> 
> I really do not believe in bad dogs, because we perpetuate breedings and are responsible for the outcome, or we raise them and socialize them and are responsible for the outcome, but for whatever reason an animal cannot be made to live with humans safely, then the domestic animal needs to be put down, not because he deserves it, but because he is an animal that has no place in the wild and no place out of the wild. They should do it humanely.
> 
> *How dare people who are not involved in this tragedy *should go out of their way to perpetuate this family's grief by trying to prolong the dog's life -- that kind of ticks me off. There should be no question about this. The dog should be euthanized.


 
*Absolutely right!*


OTOH, maybe a few of the folks starting this nonsense would like to take the dog into THEIR home (with their kids?)?

Wonder what their reaction to that might be?????


----------



## mharrisonjr26

If it was my dog that did that to my child he would have died right then. He should be put down. All dogs are not kid friendly and it makes me angry that people acctually think its ok to let anyone even children abuse anything. Children should be taught to keep there hands to themselves unless they are playing nice. IMO right or wrong the dogs gotta die and people need to do better with there children.


----------



## codmaster

mharrisonjr26 said:


> If it was my dog that did that to my child he would have died right then. He should be put down. All dogs are not kid friendly and it makes me angry that people acctually think its ok to let anyone even children abuse anything. Children should be taught to keep there hands to themselves unless they are playing nice. IMO right or wrong the dogs gotta die and people need to do better with there children.


 
So do you think the 2yo baby deserved to be ATTACKED by the dog? How exactly did the baby ABUSE this dog before he was savegly attacked and killed by the dog? Maybe he petted him too hard?????

*Be serious!*

The dog must be PTS because of the seemingly unprovoked savage attack on a baby family member.


----------



## msvette2u

*sigh*
This was not an


> unprovoked


 attack. The only difference is you think dogs should put up with all manners of being manhandled by kids (and yes, kids can be _very_ tough on dogs!), and some of us just don't, and we'll continue to separate the child from the dog, and teach the kid to respect the dog's space.

Meanwhile those who think dogs should enjoy being trampolines are going to continue to euth. the ones who took exception to being treated that way I guess.

It just goes around and around, doesn't it?


----------



## Falkosmom

msvette2u said:


> *sigh*
> This was not an attack. The only difference is you think dogs should put up with all manners of being manhandled by kids (and yes, kids can be _very_ tough on dogs!), and some of us just don't, and we'll continue to separate the child from the dog, and teach the kid to respect the dog's space.
> 
> Meanwhile those who think dogs should enjoy being trampolines are going to continue to euth. the ones who took exception to being treated that way I guess.
> 
> It just goes around and around, doesn't it?


I agree. I do not believe that these incidents should be allowed to escalate to the points that they do.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> *sigh*
> This was not an attack. The only difference is you think dogs should put up with all manners of being manhandled by kids (and yes, kids can be _very_ tough on dogs!), and some of us just don't, and we'll continue to separate the child from the dog, and teach the kid to respect the dog's space.
> 
> Meanwhile those who think dogs should enjoy being trampolines are going to continue to euth. the ones who took exception to being treated that way I guess.
> 
> It just goes around and around, doesn't it?


 
What was not am attack? The Mastiff size dog grabbing a 2yo baby by the head and doing a "Kill Shake"? I believe that was in the OP post or article - did you read it? Or maybe i misread it?

What would you consider an "ATTACK" from a dog in that case? I would consider any BITE(S) that result in death as an attack. Consider me a radical I guess!

*I am trulY wondering what YOU would do to a 2 yo baby if the baby whacked you when you were holding him/her, how about if the baby bit you on the arm while you were holding him? WOULD YOU punch him/her or bite them back or just throw them on the floor (maybe with a small kick for good measure since the baby was not acting very nice) - how about it??????*

Of course kids have to be taught to treat a dog properly BUT BE SERIOUS!!!! An adult dog has to be able to put up with a lot (short of serious pain) before reacting with an all out attack! This was not even just a simple "Get Away" snap - IT WAS AN ATTACK MEANT TO KILL!


----------



## msvette2u

I meant "_unprovoked_ attack".

As for the rest I have stated how I feel already numerous times.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> I meant "_unprovoked_ attack".
> 
> As for the rest I have stated how I feel already numerous times.


Yes you have stated that many times! Very clear - it's the person's fault - not the dog that did the biting's fault right?


*Wonder how a 2yo baby "PROVOKED" such a savage attack that killed him?*


I do not believe that there are too many things that a baby could do that would justfy such an attack. 

Perhaps you do believe that a 2yo infant can "provoke" a dog into such an attack - the article said, after all, that the baby was "petting" his dog when it attacked him and grabbed his head in it's mouth!!! A real provocation, huh?


Wonder what you would do (blasme yourself????) if you reached down to pet your dog and he grabbed even your hand in it's mouth and gave your hand a "Death Shake"! And please don't say the "He/she would never do that" - after all, that is the point, no one ever thinks that their dog would do that, do we?

You have a great day!


----------



## msvette2u

I'm very tired of the argumentative tone. You can read back if you want to know how I feel about kids and dogs interacting. Or go to Family Paws Dog and Baby Support which I'd recommend everyone who has kids and dogs do anyway.


----------



## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> Yes you have stated that many times! Very clear - it's the person's fault - not the dog that did the biting's fault right?


But should not the adults be in control and managing a small child/ big dog situation at all times? If that is not possible, should not the adults put the dog up? 

That is how my parents successfully raised three children with GSDs that were human aggressive and never had an incident.


----------



## jb_pwrstroke

Thats very sad but id never let a little kid especially a 1 year old baby crawl/climb on any dog.


----------



## selzer

A two year old is not an infant, they can walk and talk, obey commands and disobey commands, and they can use their body weight to great affect, that could possibly make an already stressed out or injured dog react. We do not know what all happened prior to the attack. But we do know that this dog is capable of and willing to kill a small child. So this dog has to go bye bye. 

Sorry. Maybe the humans in this dog's life totally and completely failed him. And maybe this dog has a brain tumor and it wasn't anybody's fault, but the dog is simply unsafe around children. And no dog should have the opportunity to kill a second small child.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> A two year old is not an infant, they can walk and talk, obey commands and disobey commands, and they can use their body weight to great affect, that could possibly make an already stressed out or injured dog react. We do not know what all happened prior to the attack. But we do know that this dog is capable of and willing to kill a small child. So this dog has to go bye bye.
> 
> Sorry. Maybe the humans in this dog's life totally and completely failed him. And maybe this dog has a brain tumor and it wasn't anybody's fault, but the dog is simply unsafe around children. *And no dog should have the opportunity to kill a second small child*.


 
Sadly all too true!


----------



## mharrisonjr26

*Selzer* I would probably consider a two year old an Infant. The child was celebrating his first birthday.

*Codmaster* I cant say If the child was abusing the dog neither can you. Thats a fact. There are many reasons why this could have happened, and as you said, It was seemingly unprovoked the article was vague at best, about the exact events leading to the attack.
Its a horrible event that occured and it should never happen and doesnt usually happen to responsible owners.


----------



## codmaster

jb_pwrstroke said:


> Thats very sad but id never let a little kid especially a 1 year old baby crawl/climb on any dog.


 
We would and did with our dogs, all thru our son's childhood. Because we trusted both of them! 

Got a pic somewhere of our 2yo son in a crate with BOTH female GSD's that we had at the time - all three lying in a pile in a big crate with the door wide open so any of the three couold have gotten out any time but all three chose to stay in there and lie together. Guess the two dogs weren't too stressed by the kid laying on them.

*As I have said, I would not have a dog I could not trust with any family member!*

But everyone has to make that decision for themselves and their families - if you think you can not trust your GSD, then it is very wise not to trust them.

Our dogs were just GSDs, from various backgrounds and temperament; but all were what I consider "normal" temperamented GSD's!


----------



## msvette2u

Cod, you seem confused by people stating they'd not let their child lay on, pull ears, hair, etc., of dogs, (which is wonderful, nobody should!) with people having aggressive dogs. 
I don't get that leap of yours, but whatever, I guess.

Simply saying I would not let a child maul my dogs doesn't meant I have aggressive dogs and I doubt anyone on this thread does.

We simply believe in teaching children proper respect for things that could indeed harm them. 

It does not have as much to do with "not trusting" your dog, as it does with* teaching kids the proper (and improper) way to interact with dogs.*

The notion kids could do whatever they want and a dog has to take whatever is dished out is a dangerous one. But my simply saying that does not imply my own dogs are a threat to kids.


----------



## mharrisonjr26

MsVette Your right on If you dont teach a child respect and understanding they wont realize every dog isnt friendly Ive seen it a million times i cant even count how many times little kids have run up to my dogs while im walking. I know and trust my dogs 100% so I dont even think of things happening like that.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Cod, you seem confused by people stating they'd not let their child lay on, pull ears, hair, etc., of dogs, (which is wonderful, nobody should!) with people having aggressive dogs.
> I don't get that leap of yours, but whatever, I guess.
> 
> Simply saying I would not let a child maul my dogs doesn't meant I have aggressive dogs and I doubt anyone on this thread does.
> 
> We simply believe in teaching children proper respect for things that could indeed harm them. *How about teaching your dog(s) that your kids are not to be messed with? just maybe a thought? But put the onus on a toddler rather than your dog if you like- they are your kids, after all! *
> 
> *But just in case, can you explain (probably won't but I just thought I would ask) how you would teach an 11 or maybe 12 mo baby "proper respect' for a dog? - i.e. maybe no pulling their fur or too hard petting and esp. "NO HITTING"! *
> *Might make the adult dog mad! *
> 
> *But you do what you want with kids and your dogs, and I will do what I do - worked for many many years. Not one attack from any of 8/9 adult GSD's and no kids attacking the dogs either for that matter! And some very good protection dogs in ScH.*
> 
> It does not have as much to do with "not trusting" your dog, as it does with* teaching kids the proper (and improper) way to interact with dogs.*
> 
> The notion kids could do whatever they want *(did I say that?)*and a dog has to take whatever is dished out is a dangerous one *(yes they do rather than ATTACKING the toddler!!! Or would that be ok with you if the baby hit the dog with a little fist? Make up your mind!).* But my simply saying that does not imply my own dogs are a threat to kids.


 
Maybe you might want to try to read my posts BEFORE you comment on me. It would mean so much more that way. I *did* say that I taught my kids to respect the dog. *BUT there is NO excuse* (short of a really bad attack by the child (hard to see a 2 yo doing that isn't it to you?) for such a viscious attack with a killing bite as we saw in the OP message - don't you agree. 

I can't believe that you can condone the type of killing attack on a 2 yo baby by a dog!!! No matter what he might have done - and all we heard was that the baby went over to the dog and petted him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sashadog

No matter how much we trust our dogs and no matter how wonderful they are with children, people seem to forget that a dog is still a dog and a dog is still an animal with animal behaviors. They do not have human rationally and don't know that they are supposed to be 100% trustworthy. When you put your child's safety in the complete trust of an animal and something bad happens, that is completely on the adults head. Why in the world would you take that risk!?


----------



## codmaster

True they are animals - no question. But I have trusted mine in many circumstances.

One female was a mascot for a little league baseball team - around all those running and very excited little kids and parents and all that. Is anyone suggesting that I shouldn't have trusted her around all those kids and adults as well even though I couldn't watch her like a hawk for every single second?

And in fact she did have a moment after one game that I umpired - evidently a father of a player I called out at home plate (who had been drinking a bit it appeared) came walking up to us (my dog was laying in front of me playing with a couple of children) yelling at the "dumb, stupid umpire, etc. etc. Princess saw him, stood up and let out a very low rumbling growl! I suggested to the guy that perhaps he should not really come any closer right at the moment - and fortunately he wasn't too drunk and realized that perhaps he should listen and he did and walked away.

Dog showed very very good judgement in my opinion (she was like that!). Then right back to letting the kids play with her and actually dress her up with a little vest my wife had made for her to wear after the game.

Temperament that I expect a normal temperamented GSD to show! Don't know about anybody elses dogs but that is what I expect from mine.


----------



## GregK

Was it ever mentioned how old the dog was?


----------



## sashadog

codmaster said:


> True they are animals - no question. But I have trusted mine in many circumstances.
> 
> One female was a mascot for a little league baseball team - around all those running and very excited little kids and parents and all that. Is anyone suggesting that I shouldn't have trusted her around all those kids and adults as well even though I couldn't watch her like a hawk for every single second?
> 
> And in fact she did have a moment after one game that I umpired - evidently a father of a player I called out at home plate (who had been drinking a bit it appeared) came walking up to us (my dog was laying in front of me playing with a couple of children) yelling at the "dumb, stupid umpire, etc. etc. Princess saw him, stood up and let out a very low rumbling growl! I suggested to the guy that perhaps he should not really come any closer right at the moment - and fortunately he wasn't too drunk and realized that perhaps he should listen and he did and walked away.
> 
> Dog showed very very good judgement in my opinion (she was like that!). Then right back to letting the kids play with her and actually dress her up with a little vest my wife had made for her to wear after the game.
> 
> Temperament that I expect a normal temperamented GSD to show! Don't know about anybody elses dogs but that is what I expect from mine.


Yes, you took a risk. It has all worked out well and there's never been an issue. I'm happy for it. It doesn't mean that every dog will at some point snap but it is always a possibility. Regardless of how much you trust them and how great your dog is, it is always a risk. I don't know why it has to be one or the other? We either have a nanny in a dogs body or a dangerous animal that can't live around people?


----------



## Falkosmom

GregK said:


> Was it ever mentioned how old the dog was?


Six years old.


----------



## msvette2u

> _I don't know why it has to be one or the other? _We either have a nanny in a dogs body or a dangerous animal that can't live around people?


This is what I've been trying to figure out for a dozen pages now


----------



## RebelGSD

There are dogs that really enjoy being manhandled by kids, but many don't . Finding out that they don't can be dangerous to the kids - the dog's tolerance level may even change. I am always shocked when an adoptive family comes to meet the dog and the kids start hugging and squeezing a dog they just met. And the comment of the parents is "yeah, the kids are just hard on the dog". This attitude is a disaster waiting to happen. This dog has not been interacting with the baby very long and there was not that much time to build a pack relationship and tolerance.

I am always blown off by parents' attitude about children. On a long flight there was a 4yo sitting behind me regularly kicking my seat full strength and would not stop even after being asked several times. The parents did nothing. Finally I asked the flight attendant that one of the parents sit in my seat so that they can be entertained by their own little one. There are sadly too many children that are not taught appropriate behavior. In the case of a 1yo, the child is too young and the parents need to be preemptive and supervise. Killing the dog won't bring their baby back, unfortunately.


----------



## jakes mom

In the link that was posted you can see the dog was actually asleep, and the baby had been changed and put on the floor. 

Activists Campaign To Save Dog That Killed 1-Year-Old | Care2 Causes



> Jeremiah’s grandmother, Elizabeth Keller was exhausted when she gave the toddler his bottle and laid him down on the living room floor at 10p.m. on April 27. The family had finished celebrating the boy’s first birthday and was ready to relax. Their dog Onion, a 6 year-old Mastiff-Rhodesian ridgeback mix, was already asleep on the floor. Jeremiah crawled over to Onion, as he had done many times before, and grabbed onto the 120-pound dog to pull himself up. As his grandmother reached down to pick him up, Onion acted out of character and latched onto the boy’s head. Jeremiah’s father immediately rushed into the room, but the damage had been done. Jeremiah’s neck was broken and his face was mutilated. The baby was airlifted to a trauma unit where he died the next morning.


If the parents had been watching this would never have happened. Also this dog is not used to the baby full-time - the dog belonged to the grandparents. 

Tragic - and I can understand the family wanting the dog put to sleep - but this was no preventable.
____________
Sue


----------



## mharrisonjr26

*Sasha *Like Cod said I trust and know mine 100% but at the same time i never leave an opprotunity for things to happen like this and again the boy is not 2 he just turned 1 years old he is an infant.
If you dont trust your dogs around kids thats you i trust mineand my kids also know how to respect the animals so there has never ever been an issue at all.


----------



## Falkosmom

selzer said:


> And no dog should have the opportunity to kill a second small child.


I don't believe a dog should ever have opportunity to kill a* first* child.



codmaster said:


> Got a pic somewhere of our 2yo son in a crate with BOTH female GSD's that we had at the time - all three lying in a pile in a big crate with the door wide open so any of the three couold have gotten out any time but all three chose to stay in there and lie together. Guess the two dogs weren't too stressed by the kid laying on them.


Cod, where you there when your son did this?


----------



## selzer

Codmaster, congratulations, you have wonderfully tempered or properly socialized dogs and always have. Good for you. Clap you on the back, congratulations. 

I hope that some day when you are so 100% sure of your dogs, they do not have a brain tumor growing in their head, and no one was the wiser because, then someone very close to you can get very hurt. 

But whatever. If we have death grips on our dogs around small children, chances are the dogs will be afraid that the little funny smelling humanoid is going to get them or their beloved owner, and be more anxious, worried and likely to react. 

One needs to pay attention to the dog and the kids and you just can't do that in the other room -- I know that was not the case here. And in a strange event like a 5 year old's birthday party, or a one-year-old's birthday party, people need to show a little consideration for the dog and maybe get them out of there if they are stressed out. Personally, I think this was preventable. But, no one even considered the possibility that the dog might react like this. They had Codmaster's faith in their four legged friend. They have paid. 

This is really not a time for uninvolved animal activists to try to save a dog, and it is not the time for dog-people to educate the owners. It is a terrible tragedy. And the only point in this thread is for those people who have Codmaster's faith in their dogs to think twice about the dogs when the situation might be hairy, and maybe pay just a little closer attention, and hopefully maybe someone averts a similar tragedy.


----------



## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> I don't believe a dog should ever have opportunity to kill a* first* child.
> 
> 
> 
> Cod, where you there when your son did this?


 
Yes, they would all three play on the floor all the time rolling around with each other and sharing toys etc. 


Of course we never left the baby alone but it was not because of the dogs - just didn't leave a baby alone anyway.

We can also remember when he was an infant in a swing sharing his cookies with the dogs - they would sit next to him and take a lick as the cookie came by them as he swung and then usually after a few minutes the dog would VERY gently mouth the cookie and pull it out of his little hand. Funny as heck to see the look on his face when his hand was empty!!!!

Greatest thing in the world to see a trustworthy dog with HIS/HER child!

And then as he got older seeing him take care of the dog!


----------



## msvette2u

> And in a strange event like a 5 year old's birthday party, or a one-year-old's birthday party, *people need to show a little consideration for the dog and maybe get them out of there if they are stressed out.* Personally, I think this was preventable. But, no one even considered the possibility that the dog might react like this. They had Codmaster's faith in their four legged friend. They have paid.


I told my parents, who often have very "old fashioned" ideas about dogs, some of which is changing because of our rescue. They have picked up and transported dogs for us many times, and these people who used to think spending over $50 on your dog at the vet was insane, now are with us when we pay off huge vet bills on our rescued dogs, etc.
Anyway - my parents, when I told them about this situation, asked immediately "Why was the dog even in the room??"
I agree - he should have been put up in another room, in a crate somewhere (if they even used one) somewhere away from the hustle and bustle of the day.
He was a good dog, a great dog in fact, used as a "therapy" dog for mom when she was sick, etc.
He was a great dog - until he wasn't anymore.

Mharrison said it best. I don't even have faith my dogs would not harm a child because there are not kids in my home. I err on the side of caution and put them away. I don't believe they inherently, or "instinctively" will be cautious with a child simply because it is a child.

That said, they aren't going go to rush up and maul or kill a child, either, but why even give them a chance? A child's life is more precious than proving I have "nice dogs". I know my dogs are nice, awesome and they blend wonderfully with the family we have here now.
When my grandchild comes to visit, that's what yards, other rooms and crates are for.


----------



## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> Yes, they would all three play on the floor all the time rolling around with each other and sharing toys etc.
> 
> 
> Of course we never left the baby alone but it was not because of the dogs - just didn't leave a baby alone anyway.
> 
> We can also remember when he was an infant in a swing sharing his cookies with the dogs - they would sit next to him and take a lick as the cookie came by them as he swung and then usually after a few minutes the dog would VERY gently mouth the cookie and pull it out of his little hand. Funny as heck to see the look on his face when his hand was empty!!!!
> 
> Greatest thing in the world to see a trustworthy dog with HIS/HER child!
> 
> And then as he got older seeing him take care of the dog!


Cod, you can debate the point all day long. Somehow, though, I believe that through it all, you were not only just in the same room, but present, and therein lies the difference.


----------



## sashadog

mharrisonjr26 said:


> *Sasha *Like Cod said I trust and know mine 100% *but at the same time i never leave an opprotunity for things to happen like this* and again the boy is not 2 he just turned 1 years old he is an infant.
> If you dont trust your dogs around kids thats you i trust mineand my kids also know how to respect the animals so there has never ever been an issue at all.


Exactly. However it seems to be a common mindset that dogs should take anything that's dished out by children simply because that's what a family dog should do. Not saying that's your mindset but it's something I hear often and have gotten a taste of on this forum. I simply don't feel comfortable trusting my dogs (very good dogs by the way, that have never threatened or acted uncomfortable around children) to that extent because of the tragedy that could happen if the dog is even simply having a bad day. Like msvette said, "A child's life is more precious than proving I have "nice dogs"." Especially when you hear of tragedies like this where the parents "never thought their dog would ever hurt anyone."


----------



## Hrachia

sashadog said:


> Exactly. However it seems to be a common mindset that dogs should take anything that's dished out by children simply because that's what a family dog should do. Not saying that's your mindset but it's something I hear often and have gotten a taste of on this forum. I simply don't feel comfortable trusting my dogs (very good dogs by the way, that have never threatened or acted uncomfortable around children) to that extent because of the tragedy that could happen if the dog is even simply having a bad day. Like msvette said, "A child's life is more precious than proving I have "nice dogs"." Especially when you hear of tragedies like this where the parents "never thought their dog would ever hurt anyone."


In the long run you must remember we all have triggers. Regardless man, dog or any other animal. You trigger that stress response and even we are known to attack. So what's to stop a dog from? Did you mean to hit someone when you were driven to the brink, no. Neither was the dog, but situations do happen. So it is always best to keep an eye on body language and always educate your children that in the end you shouldn't really fully ever trust them. My Previous shepherd had accidentally sunken his teeth into me a couple of times. But all those times were my fault trying to get in his way due to a trigger that caused a stress response.


----------



## sashadog

Hrachia said:


> In the long run you must remember we all have triggers. Regardless man, dog or any other animal. You trigger that stress response and even we are known to attack. So what's to stop a dog from? Did you mean to hit someone when you were driven to the brink, no. Neither was the dog, but situations do happen. So it is always best to keep an eye on body language and always educate your children that in the end you shouldn't really fully ever trust them. My Previous shepherd had accidentally sunken his teeth into me a couple of times. But all those times were my fault trying to get in his way due to a trigger that caused a stress response.


I agree. And unfortunately that bite that gives us a few stitches can seriously injure a young child. Not to mention, it's hard enough to teach logical adults about reading dog behavior let alone young children!


----------



## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Cod, you can debate the point all day long. Somehow, though, I believe that through it all, you were not only just in the same room, but present, and therein lies the difference.


falk, 

Believe whatever you like - really doesn't make any difference. You know your dog better than other folks. Some folks trust their dogs with kids and/or other things, and some choose not to. Their decision, of course.

Actually not a debate at all! 

Just shows how different folks think about their dogs! And that is fine!

And, if you don't think that your dog should be around kids (or ???) then of course the best thing to do is to put them away.

BTW, with our current dog (4yo male GSD), we had someone visiting the house who really (foolishly in my opinion) trusted Baron! She had a baby (just crawling size) and she was at our house visiting because her husband was doing some repair workfor us and she had stopped by to pick him up. We were sitting in the back yard on the patio and she was holding the baby with our dog running around being his usual friendly pesty self when she just stooped over and placed her baby on the stone patio to crawl around! Baron was very funny as he went over to the baby and sniffed at him and sniffed and sniffed. That was his only reaction to the little guy crawling around (till I picked the baby up). He had also sniffed him when the mother was holding him. 

I would not have put the baby down myself but not because i thought my dog would show any aggression to a baby but because i would be a little bit afraid he might step on him.

Never would I expect any of the dogs that we have owned to show any aggression to a baby. And strangely enough, none ever have!


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> *Codmaster, congratulations, you have wonderfully tempered or properly socialized dogs and always have. Good for you. Clap you on the back, congratulations. *
> 
> *Thank you so much!*
> 
> I hope that some day when you are so 100% sure of your dogs, they do not have a brain tumor growing in their head, and no one was the wiser because, then someone very close to you can get very hurt.
> 
> *Actually our very first GSD died at 5.5 yo due to a brain tumor. *
> 
> But whatever. If we have death grips on our dogs around small children, chances are the dogs will be afraid that the little funny smelling humanoid is going to get them or their beloved owner, and be more anxious, worried and likely to react.
> 
> One needs to pay attention to the dog and the kids and you just can't do that in the other room -- I know that was not the case here. And in a strange event like a 5 year old's birthday party, or a one-year-old's birthday party, people need to show a little consideration for the dog and maybe get them out of there if they are stressed out. Personally, I think this was preventable. But, no one even considered the possibility that the dog might react like this. They had Codmaster's faith in their four legged friend. They have paid. *BUT they didn't have my dog(s) (or maybe had not trained them like I did)! Now did they? Might make a difference, eh?*
> 
> This is really not a time for uninvolved animal activists to try to save a dog, and it is not the time for dog-people to educate the owners. It is a terrible tragedy. And the only point in this thread is for those people who have Codmaster's faith in their dogs to think twice about the dogs when the situation might be hairy, and maybe pay just a little closer attention, and hopefully maybe someone averts a similar tragedy.


So I guess the solution to dog attacks is to NEVER let them near anything/anybody, esp. not kids!

Come to think of it, maybe I better stop playing (esp. grabbing him and wrestling) with my own dog - he might snap and attack me! Good grief!

*W**ould you have faith in a relative of yours playing or holding your baby?* How about an older sibling? They might snap at any moment (just like you, a few others here seem to think their dogs will!) An aunt/uncle might also have a hidden brain tumor or a hidden injury - kid touches it an BOOOOM! Down goes the kid!

The parent as well, maybe could be a risk, come to think of it.


----------



## msvette2u

Hrachia said:


> In the long run you must remember we all have triggers. Regardless man, dog or any other animal. *You trigger that stress response and even we are known to attack. So what's to stop a dog from? * Did you mean to hit someone when you were driven to the brink, no. Neither was the dog, but situations do happen. So it is always best to keep an eye on body language and always educate your children that in the end you shouldn't really fully ever trust them. My Previous shepherd had accidentally sunken his teeth into me a couple of times. But all those times were my fault trying to get in his way due to a trigger that caused a stress response.


Every dog has a bite threshold. Your dogs (cod) just haven't reached it yet. That doesn't mean they won't or would never. 
And should it happen - you'd probably put it in the ground and nobody would be any the wiser.

I learned about bite thresholds one day when working with a foster, well, it really crystallized in my mind.
I had one of those e-collars, the dog had had surgery on her eye and I needed to put one on her. The big plastic kind they call "cones".
So, like every other dog I'd owned, I went to stick it on her head - all put together already in a circle. 
I headed towards her and she got very nervous and backed into a corner. 
I disregarded her signals that she was uncomfortable, and proceeded to get closer to stick it on her head.
She then just exploded out of the corner she was in, and ran by me with her mouth open.
Technically she "bit" me. She left a bruise but no open spots.
I felt awful. I had pushed her _beyond_ her bite threshold.

I found her hiding in the hallway, feeling bad herself. I told her I was sorry, I should not have done that. I opened the e-collar so it was flat instead of circular, and I placed it around her neck that way. 
She was okay when she did not see it coming at her like...God knows what she thought it was!

It suddenly occurred to me, as well, that it could have been my own dog doing that - that I'd just never pushed her beyond her bite threshold!

I mean...every dog has one. Some are just lower than others. I think sometimes as Hrachia suggested, it can change, too. Maybe one day your dog is having an off day. Maybe it's got a pain somewhere.

The most important thing I learned was to read- and respect - their body language. Never, ever assume your dog would "never bite". They just haven't reached their threshold yet.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Every dog has a bite threshold. Your dogs (cod) just haven't reached it yet. That doesn't mean they won't or would never. *So could any person, can't they? Does that mean you don't trust anybody? Sounds like it!*
> And should it happen - *you'd probably put it in the ground and nobody would be any the wiser.*
> 
> *Making yet another assumption, are you?*
> 
> I learned about bite thresholds one day when working with a foster, well, it really crystallized in my mind.
> I had one of those e-collars, the dog had had surgery on her eye and I needed to put one on her. The big plastic kind they call "cones".
> So, like every other dog I'd owned, I went to stick it on her head - all put together already in a circle.
> I headed towards her and she got very nervous and backed into a corner.
> I disregarded her signals that she was uncomfortable, and proceeded to get closer to stick it on her head.
> She then just exploded out of the corner she was in, and ran by me with her mouth open.
> Technically she "bit" me. She left a bruise but no open spots.
> I felt awful. I had pushed her _beyond_ her bite threshold.
> 
> I found her hiding in the hallway, feeling bad herself. I told her I was sorry, I should not have done that. I opened the e-collar so it was flat instead of circular, and I placed it around her neck that way.
> She was okay when she did not see it coming at her like...God knows what she thought it was!
> 
> It suddenly occurred to me, as well, that it could have been my own dog doing that - that I'd just never pushed her beyond her bite threshold!
> 
> I mean...every dog has one. Some are just lower than others. I think sometimes as Hrachia suggested, it can change, too. Maybe one day your dog is having an off day. Maybe it's got a pain somewhere.
> 
> The most important thing I learned was to read- and respect - their body language. Never, ever assume your dog would "never bite". They just haven't reached their threshold yet.


*When did I ever say that my dog(s) "would never bite?".* Please point that out to me or else please stop trying to put words in my mouth (or just stop using what you seem to think i said to justify your own lack of faith in your own dogs).

Of course any dog might bite (and any person could also snap). 

The same dog that played with my child and yes let the baby crawl all over him, also in a different circumstance risked her own life defending us and did BITE again and again! Same dog different situation!

BTW, think Mother Teresa or Ghandi was capable of killing someone with their bare hands if provoked enough? (Maybe if they had a brain tumor?)


*I just wish for your sake that you someday find a dog you can trust with your life! Maybe then you might understand what it is like to have a very strong faith in an animal (or other person, maybe?).*


----------



## jakes mom

codmaster said:


> Never would I expect any of the dogs that we have owned to show any aggression to a baby. And strangely enough, none ever have!


That's the problem - the family of the baby never thought the lovely dog they had owned for 6 years would ever bite either. If they'd have thought that for a second, do you think they'd have let the baby climb on a huge dog when he was asleep. 

I think most people with children are the same - how stressful would life be if you were constantly on high alert. Let's face it being in the same room and supervising cannot guarantee that nothing will happen. Nor does it mean you can do anything about it. I know from first hand experience that if the unthinkable happens you don't have time to do anything about it - things happen too quick. 

We all have to have faith to some degree that our dogs are 100% safe, otherwise we'd end up nervous wrecks.
____________
Sue


----------



## msvette2u

As for everything else you said - you just enjoy arguing with everyone about this, I guess :shrug:

But this --



> I just wish for your sake that you someday find a dog you can trust with your life! Maybe then you might understand what it is like to have a very strong faith in an animal (or other person, maybe?).


_Very_ rude, and just who is making assumptions now??


----------



## chelle

msvette2u said:


> Every dog has a bite threshold. Your dogs (cod) just haven't reached it yet. That doesn't mean they won't or would never.
> And should it happen - you'd probably put it in the ground and nobody would be any the wiser.
> 
> I learned about bite thresholds one day when working with a foster, well, it really crystallized in my mind.
> I had one of those e-collars, the dog had had surgery on her eye and I needed to put one on her. The big plastic kind they call "cones".
> So, like every other dog I'd owned, I went to stick it on her head - all put together already in a circle.
> I headed towards her and she got very nervous and backed into a corner.
> I disregarded her signals that she was uncomfortable, and proceeded to get closer to stick it on her head.
> She then just exploded out of the corner she was in, and ran by me with her mouth open.
> Technically she "bit" me. She left a bruise but no open spots.
> I felt awful. I had pushed her _beyond_ her bite threshold.
> 
> I found her hiding in the hallway, feeling bad herself. I told her I was sorry, I should not have done that. I opened the e-collar so it was flat instead of circular, and I placed it around her neck that way.
> She was okay when she did not see it coming at her like...God knows what she thought it was!
> 
> It suddenly occurred to me, as well, that it could have been my own dog doing that - that I'd just never pushed her beyond her bite threshold!
> 
> I mean...every dog has one. Some are just lower than others. I think sometimes as Hrachia suggested, it can change, too. Maybe one day your dog is having an off day. Maybe it's got a pain somewhere.
> 
> The most important thing I learned was to read- and respect - their body language. Never, ever assume your dog would "never bite". They just haven't reached their threshold yet.


Great post. Honestly, kudos. Something for every owner to keep in mind. The new guy nipped at me when I apparently (now I understand), went over his threshold. I scared him. He's not a mean dog.. I .. scared... him. He reacted like .. a ... dog. He's a super gentle guy with humans, so I had clearly overstepped to get him to nip me. Valuable learning experience, that.


----------



## lhczth

This is a strong reminder to eveyone to remain civil. You are having a discussion where some of you disagree strongly. You may do so, but please leave out the sarcasm and personal comments.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


----------



## minerva_deluthe

In my opinion this is a nightmarish tragedy and the dog needs to die. We just can't afford to have domesticated animals that will snap and kill a baby for normal baby behaviour, if the parents happen to look away. This is not safe for people and it's not good for dogs either to make excuses for this kind of behaviour. There are many dogs who need and deserve homes who would not act like this. It's worse than useless for dog lovers to put energy into defending this dog's behaviour and lobbying for its life.


----------



## GregK

Hmmmmm....wonder how many of my dogs would react this way in a similar scenario - sound asleep and a toddler climbing on them??? 

I’ll never find out because it will *never* have the opportunity to happen!!


----------



## Dainerra

I've met plenty of PEOPLE who you wouldn't want to wake out of a sound sleep. It's an instinctive primal reaction. The mind isn't awake, just a body reaction to an "attack" 

Ever heard the saying "Let sleeping dogs lie"??

ETA: I had to go look up the orgins of that - yes I'm a nerd 
Chaucer is the first person credited with using the phrase - 'It is nought good a slepyng hound to wake.' ('Troylus and Crisedye,' 1374) -- and it was still so recorded some two hundred years later by John Heywood ('A Dialogue Conteynyng Prouerbes and Epigrammes,' 1592), 'It is ill wakyng of a sleapyng dogge.'
But it possibly came from the bible - Proverbs (26:17) says, "Like someone who grabs a dog by the ears, is a bystander who meddles in a dispute not his."

​​


----------



## Falkosmom

GregK said:


> Hmmmmm....wonder how many of my dogs would react this way in a similar scenario - sound asleep and a toddler climbing on them???
> 
> I’ll never find out because it will *never* have the opportunity to happen!!


 
Good for you! That's what I'm talking about!


----------



## msvette2u

> This is not safe for people and it's not good for dogs either to make excuses for this kind of behaviour.


To be clear - I am not and have not made excuses for what this dog did. However, it _was_ preventable and for that, the parents must suffer for the rest of their lives.


----------



## selzer

Well those parents never dreamed that their dog would possibly hurt the baby. Everyone who has read this conversation and then allows a similar situation to occur -- they would be guilty of allowing something preventable to happen at the cost of a small child/baby. 

Even dogs with nerves of steel could be injured or become ill and cause an injury. 

Do we worry about it with humans when we let them around our infants and small children? A dog is a predator with all the tools it needs to kill and eat built in. Humans are a little different, we maybe can kill an infant in an instant -- strangle or shake them or bash their heads in. But I think it is far less likely for humans to fail to recognize that an adult human isn't acting right and give the baby to them. We are also predators, but we have been using tools to kill for centuries. A dog has the emotional range of a 2-6 year old child. They are not like adult humans. In some ways, they surpass them. But how many of us give our 2-6 year olds unrestricted access to a baby? 

2-6 year olds do not necessarily look at long term consequences, they can understand that something might hurt the baby, but they do not understand the level of damage something might cause. They are also rather self-centered, and may see an infant as a threat to their getting attention, etc. So do we hand Gwennie off to Andrea and say, you two play nice while I go in the other room and make dinner? Heck no. We watch every move they make at 1 and 2 so that the larger/stronger one does not hurt the smaller weaker one which she is certainly capable of doing. Do we leave Gwennie with the five year olds, Analisa or Elena? They understand way more and would probably never do anything to injure the baby. I would trust them 98%, but sometimes you look at a really bright kid that just did something terribly stupid or dangerous, and can't believe it. Kids don't sometimes think, they do not recognize the dangers in some actions. So no way. 

Why in the world would we trust a dog, who is not even the same species, when we do not even trust children with our fragile, little ones. 

I am not suggesting we not put the dog down, but I am suggesting that in the natural order of things, children follow parents because until they reach a certain level of maturity, it is not safe for them to be on their own. We need to protect them and teach them good behaviors, and understand that until they are old enough to understand long-term consequences and dangerous actions, we need to protect them from making bad choices. 

So no, we do not give 100% access to human relatives. We supervise carefully and step in before there is a problem. And we should do this with our dogs. Yes we do need to expose them to family members of all ages, but we really shouldn't be more free with them than we would be a 2-6 year old child.


----------



## jakes mom

Good post Selzer

I'm going out on a limb now. 

What happened to the baby is just so so tragic - no words can really say. It's understandable the parents want the dog put down - is there any of us who'd feel differently if it was our baby. 

But it's no good, I feel sad for the dog as well. When you think about it - this was a kids birthday party. 

Anyone who's ever held one knows what they're like. Babies, toddlers and youngsters plus their parents. So that's lots of adults, lots of little kids, and everything that goes with it. You can just imagine the noise, the running around, the laughter, the mess, the music, the squealing. The adults talking amongst themselves and not paying full attention to what the little ones are doing around the dog. 

It would have been major stress for a dog who was used to childen 24/7 - and it's doubtful he was, as he belonged to the grandparents. Not to mention he was a big dog, a very big dog. With hindsight it was an accident just waiting to happen.

According to it he was six years old and had always been a lovely dog, and had given no cause for concern. It's just so sad all round. 
___________
Sue


----------



## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> I've met plenty of PEOPLE who you wouldn't want to wake out of a sound sleep. It's an instinctive primal reaction. The mind isn't awake, just a body reaction to an "attack"
> 
> Ever heard the saying "Let sleeping dogs lie"??
> 
> ETA: I had to go look up the orgins of that - yes I'm a nerd
> Chaucer is the first person credited with using the phrase - 'It is nought good a slepyng hound to wake.' ('Troylus and Crisedye,' 1374) -- and it was still so recorded some two hundred years later by John Heywood ('A Dialogue Conteynyng Prouerbes and Epigrammes,' 1592), 'It is ill wakyng of a sleapyng dogge.'
> But it possibly came from the bible - Proverbs (26:17) says, "Like someone who grabs a dog by the ears, is a bystander who meddles in a dispute not his."​


 
Many folks seem to be forgetting the very nature of this attack by that huge dog on a tiny baby! And I would guess that the dog had been around the baby before - and the dog was being petted, for goodness sake, by the baby when the dog attacked him!

This was not a "startled" reaction or even a "Get away from me" - that would have been a snarl and a snap! And then perhaps a retreat by the dog.

From what we read (all I have to go on) - this was a "Killing Attack" meant to kill. That is the full bite grab and then the brutal head shake.

*There can be NO excuse for such an attack by a dog on a baby!*

*And no mealy mouthed list of excuses can ever explain, justify or excuse it!!!!!!!!!!!*

*But of course that is just my opinion!*


----------



## codmaster

GregK said:


> Hmmmmm....wonder how many of my dogs would react this way in a similar scenario - sound asleep and a toddler climbing on them???
> 
> I’ll never find out because it will *never* have the opportunity to happen!!


*Interesting question!*

I know the answer for at least two of our earlier GSD's. NO reaction! They both just woke up and licked the little guy crawling on them! As i would expect any normal temperament family dog to react. Worst I would have expected of any of our dogs would be to scramble up and perhaps knock the little guy over, but attack him - good grief! Wouldn't have a dog that i believed that of!

Would you really expect your family pet to react aggressively to you or other family members just because you woke them up? Interesting!

Why would anyone ever keep a family pet who you had such a belief about?


----------



## msvette2u

Here we go again


----------



## selzer

codmaster said:


> Many folks seem to be forgetting the very nature of this attack by that huge dog on a tiny baby! And I would guess that the dog had been around the baby before - and the dog was being petted, for goodness sake, by the baby when the dog attacked him!
> 
> This was not a "startled" reaction or even a "Get away from me" - that would have been a snarl and a snap! And then perhaps a retreat by the dog.
> 
> From what we read (all I have to go on) - this was a "Killing Attack" meant to kill. That is the full bite grab and then the brutal head shake.
> 
> *There can be NO excuse for such an attack by a dog on a baby!*
> 
> *And no mealy mouthed list of excuses can ever explain, justify or excuse it!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> *But of course that is just my opinion!*


Why are you so angry that not everyone is sharing your opinion? A dog is not a human, justifying and excusing it is really a human thing to do. The dog is simply a domestic animal that is not right. Put it out of its pain, no problem. Being angry at a critter that has a screw loose is like being angry at a mentally challenged person for making a mess. If this was your child or grandchild, nephew or someone you knew personally, I could understand the feeling of anger toward the animal. 

But for weeks now you have been flipping mad at a dog. A dog that isn't right. 

I usually save my anger for the adult humans that are responsible their actions or inaction. Anger at an animal is wasted. It is usually caused by people putting human expectations on an animal, what a set-up. 

I just don't get it. If we are entitled to our opinion, than being furious about your opinion doesn't really work.


----------



## msvette2u

Instead of being angry, get out there and educate parents to not take risks with their kids and dogs. 
So what if they "should" tolerate kids? Reality is, many _do not_.
It'd suck awfully badly to find out yours didn't the hard way.


----------



## sashadog

For crying out loud, NO ONE IS MAKING EXCUSES FOR THE DOG!!!!!!  

Cod, you seem insistent on attacking everyone else's decision to not take this risk and in turn seem to be intent on insulting everyones dog and their supposed lack of trustworthiness in the process!!!! Just because I think my dogs would be fine with children does not mean I will ever take the risk with any dog, ever, to let my children climb all over them. That is my choice and everyone else's choice who chooses to make it. No one is attacking your decision to trust your child's life to an animal!!! They are simply stating they would make a different choice. In fact I think several people have congratulated you on having dogs that you trust.

Everyone that has posted so far seems to agree that this is a huge tragedy and the dog should be humanely euthanized!!!! What everyone is pointing out is that this incident is a very good example of why children should never be allowed to be unattended around dogs, ANY DOG!!! Because as has been said over and over again... a dog is a dog is a dog. They have good days, bad days, painful days, and when they aren't up for tolerating children the damage can be heartbreaking. By trusting A DOG with such a small human (like an infant/young child) you are trusting an animal with possibly the life of a child. 

I for one, would appreciate it if you would stop (what feels like) attacking my beliefs and my dogs. You've stated your opinion, as others have stated theirs.


----------



## sashadog

Sorry.... had to vent that. :blush: Drives me crazy...


----------



## msvette2u

> I for one, would appreciate it if you would stop (what feels like) attacking my beliefs and my dogs. You've stated your opinion, as others have stated theirs.


Oh yeah I'm sick of hearing how my dogs must be one step away from Cujo (or related at the very least) because I simply state "I put my dogs away when grandchild visits"!!!

Look - this dog was raised around no children at all.
I had my daughter when Pepper was 6!
I did not let her crawl all over Pepper. Not at all! 
I sat with her on the floor, and took her hand and "petted" the dog, telling her over and over "PET the doggie"! She'd try to smack the dog (what toddlers do) and I'd show her over and over.
My dog was safe with this child! 
But why should I, why would I, let the child torment the dog, just to _prove_ my dog was safe!?? And simply stating that doesn't automatically imply my dogs are mean or vicious. GEEZ.


----------



## Falkosmom

What a beautiful baby girl! Sooo cute! The dog is very pretty too.


----------



## sashadog

Love that picture!!  They're both adorable!!


----------



## GregK

codmaster said:


> Would you really expect your family pet to react aggressively to you or other family members just because you woke them up? Interesting!


Woke em up - no. Climb on top of them when they're sleeping? Couldn't tell ya. Not going to try it either.


----------



## codmaster

sashadog said:


> For crying out loud, NO ONE IS MAKING EXCUSES FOR THE DOG!!!!!!
> 
> Cod, you seem insistent on *attacking everyone else's decision* to not take this risk and in turn seem to be intent on insulting everyones dog and their supposed lack of trustworthiness *(no insult intended about anybody else's dogs, just stating my opinion of my dogs and what I think any adult dog should behave like - an opinion based on the GSD standard and my own experience with my dogs! A number of owners have stated that they don't trust their own dogs - I of course know nothing about anybody else's dogs except my own dogs) in the process!!!!*
> Just because I think my dogs would be fine with children does not mean I will ever take the risk with any dog, ever, to let my children climb all over them. That is my choice and everyone else's choice who chooses to make it. No one is attacking your decision to trust your child's life to an animal!!!
> *Yes, some have, and that is their prerogative and I don't mind - they can believe whatever they want about their dogs (based on their own experience with them), and I will believe what I believe about my own dogs based on my long experience with them!*
> They are simply stating they would make a different choice. In fact I think several people have congratulated you on having dogs that you trust.
> 
> Everyone that has posted so far seems to agree that this is a huge tragedy and the dog should be humanely euthanized!!!! What everyone is pointing out is that this incident is a very good example of why children *(of ANY age?) *should never be allowed to be unattended around dogs, ANY DOG!!! Because as has been said over and over again... a dog is a dog is a dog. They have good days, bad days, painful days, and when they aren't up for tolerating children the damage can be heartbreaking. By trusting A DOG with such a small human (like an infant/young child) you are trusting an animal with possibly the life of a child.
> 
> I for one, would appreciate it if you would stop (what feels like) attacking my beliefs and my dogs. You've stated your opinion, as others have stated theirs.


sash,

please do not get all defensive about this - I attack no one by stating my own beliefs and trust in my own dogs.

Of courseIi would not trust my toddler with a strange dog (no matter the size of it) and esp. with a dog that I didn't trust with a small child.

You are also absolutely correct in that if someone doesn't trust their dogs (as many have stated that they wouldn't) with a small child or baby, then they are being extremely prudent in keeping their dogs and kids apart - no question! And that with no attack intended on anyone!


----------



## codmaster

GregK said:


> Woke em up - no. Climb on top of them when they're sleeping? Couldn't tell ya. Not going to try it either.


probably a cool choice.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Oh yeah I'm sick of hearing how my dogs must be one step away from Cujo (or related at the very least) because I simply state "I put my dogs away when grandchild visits"!!!
> 
> Look - this dog was raised around no children at all.
> I had my daughter when Pepper was 6!
> I did not let her crawl all over Pepper. Not at all!
> I sat with her on the floor, and took her hand and "petted" the dog, telling her over and over "PET the doggie"! She'd try to smack the dog (what toddlers do) and I'd show her over and over.
> My dog was safe with this child!
> But why should I, why would I, let the child torment the dog, just to _prove_ my dog was safe!?? And simply stating that doesn't automatically imply my dogs are mean or vicious. GEEZ.


 
Very nice to see your dog with a Baby right next to it. And with the dog looking so relaxed!


----------



## codmaster

Everyone to their own opinion!


----------



## selzer

Codmaster, do you just want to fight or what? You are being terribly insulting and dangerous. Any GSD? Well, what about dogs not raised with children? Do you think that a dog that is not accustomed to children running around, climbing on them, screaming is going to not get a reaction? Sometimes the reaction is acceptable, sometimes not, but would you want to offer your toddler for the test? 

I don't think you can ever be 100% sure, even if you have had 50 dogs and never had one bite a toddler. But if you are willing to risk it, risk it with your own kid, and don't pick on people who are not willing to do that. Some things you just can't take back.


----------



## msvette2u

> no insult intended about anybody else's dogs,
> 
> 
> You consider this a "primal" instinct of a GSD?
> 
> If so, I bet that you never turn your back on yours, do you?
> 
> Temperament that I expect a normal temperamented GSD to show! Don't know about anybody elses dogs but that is what I expect from mine.
> 
> *I just wish for your sake that you someday find a dog you can trust with your life! Maybe then you might understand what it is like to have a very strong faith in an animal (or other person, maybe?).*


And the last one was directed towards me!!! That was not only incredibly rude, it was horrible and* mean*!!

Why would you say that?? When I have grown up around dogs and teach my kids respect instead of just letting the kid go nuts with the dog??

Just mean. I'm sick of your attitude.

My dog Pepper was one of the best dogs to ever walk the earth. And you have the nerve to fling around insults like the one above, towards me and my dogs!

Right now, I happen to own a plethora of Dachshunds who've never even been around kids. Why should I try to prove they are "trustworthy", when I care about my granddaughter's face more than being some big shot so I can brag on a freaking forum that my dogs are fine with kids!??


----------



## selzer

msvette2u said:


> And the last one was directed towards me!!! That was not only incredibly rude, it was horrible and* mean*!!
> 
> Why would you say that?? When I have grown up around dogs and teach my kids respect instead of just letting the kid go nuts with the dog??
> 
> Just mean. I'm sick of your attitude.
> 
> My dog Pepper was one of the best dogs to ever walk the earth. And you have the nerve to fling around insults like the one above, towards me and my dogs!
> 
> Right now, I happen to own a plethora of Dachshunds who've never even been around kids. *Why should I try to prove they are "trustworthy", when I care about my granddaughter's face more than being some big shot so I can brag on a freaking forum that my dogs are fine with kids!??*


:thumbup:


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> And the last one was directed towards me!!! That was not only incredibly rude, it was horrible and* mean*!!
> 
> Why would you say that?? When I have grown up around dogs and teach my kids respect instead of just letting the kid go nuts with the dog?? *Did I ever said that I let my kid "go nuts" with my dogs (or any dog)? If you really think I did say that, please point it out where I did so! Maybe read what I actually said - might make you a little less upset, I would hope.*
> 
> Just mean. I'm sick of your attitude. *(Likewise!)*
> 
> My dog Pepper was one of the best dogs to ever walk the earth. And you have the nerve to fling around *insults (????) *like the one above, towards me and my dogs! *No insults said or intended. YOU know your dog - I don't know anything about him, so would say never say anything about him. I just know that I TRUSTED MY DOGS WITH MY KIDS. I neither know nor care how you or anybody else feels about their dogs! If you still feel that that is "being mean" or "insulting" to you or your dogs, then I cannot help how you feel. *
> 
> Right now, I happen to own a plethora of Dachshunds who've never even been around kids. Why should I try to prove they are "trustworthy", *(no reason whatsoever to do so!)* when I care about my granddaughter's face more than *being some big shot* so I can brag on a *freaking forum* that my dogs are fine with kids!??


*Me - a "Big Shot"? Kind of "mean" yourself - do you think!*

I only can speak about my own dogs who happen to have all been GSD's. I know nothing about your own dogs or anybody elses so I only state my own beliefs in my dogs based on the facts tand behavior that we saw with them growing up with our family. 

Never realized that expressing one's own opinion and facts about my own dog would engender such vitrolic emotional reactions from a few with admitedlly different beliefs in our own dogs (and maybe what might be expected from the standard GSD. (the only breed that I have any personal ownership experience with and was talking about and referring to generally).


----------



## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> I just wish for your sake that you someday find a dog you can trust with your life! *Maybe then you might understand what it is like to have a very strong faith in an animal (or other person, maybe?).*


Perhaps you do not feel this is mean and insulting. 
I do. 
It is not even relevant to dog ownership.

What is really stupid is that comment is being made without you even knowing me or my life, but a few posts on a forum that I said people shouldn't let their kids climb on their dogs. 

I mean...how _dare_ you imply I have never had a dog, or person in my life I could trust, or have faith in??


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Perhaps you do not feel this is mean and insulting.
> I do.
> It is not even relevant to dog ownership.
> 
> What is really stupid is that comment is being made without you even knowing me or my life, but a few posts on a forum that I said people shouldn't let their kids climb on their dogs. *And I said that my kid could and did exactly that growing up and that I trusted MY dogs and MY kid to behave appropriatly with each other as they have been taught to do so and had a solid temperament to begin with (the dogs not the kid!).*
> 
> I mean...how *dare you imply I have never had a do*g, or person in my life I could trust, or have faith in??


 *Never implied anything of the sort about either your dog or your kid or you.*


Please don't feel so defensive and insulted.

Of course I don't know you or your dogs or anything other than what I read in your posts. I never presumed to imply or state that I did - please remember I was stating *MY Faith and Trust in MY dogs with MY Kid* - and also that *I thought that all dogs SHOULD be that trustworthy.* 

If anyone got insulted by my statement, then perhaps they should reread what I said, or maybe I will have to try to write it much clearer so no one else gets insulted when I write about my own dogs and their behavior and my belief in them. My belief in the temperament of MY dogs has got absolutely nothing to do with yours or anyone elses faith in their dogs.

Now of course it is extremely obvious from the newspapers if nothing else, that is not the case with all dogs and parents have to be VERY careful around dogs with the kids and that kids have to be taught about dogs (but how would you teach a 1yo as in the OP post?)

I really meant it exactly as I said it - I hoped that you could have a dog that you could trust with your life and that of your kids (if any of course). From what you had said previously I assumed that you hadn't had one of them yet (if that is incorrect, forgive me for misinterpreting what you did state in your posts!).

If you have had dogs that are trustworthy around little kids, then that is really super and good for you and them. I still believe that GSD's should be like that. And that is the only dog breed that I have ever owned.


----------



## ozzymama

Everybody knows their dogs and children on here, they know how they will react, hopefully.
Here's how I look at dogs and kids. It's not worth the risk, however I can't keep my toddler away from them forever. I treat it the same way I treated a visit to the local jewellery store last week. Not kid friendly, maybe a normal toddler who doesn't stand 3 feet tall with an insane curiosity that would have killed a dozen cats. I was waiting and showed my daughter the canary in the cage. (Jeweller has a bright yellow canary in a very beautiful wrought iron Victorian style cage) As I would wander over to the counter my daughter would want down, I literally saw our income for the next year having to be paid to the store, I put her down and nervously shadowed her, she walked to the cage, said "up", she wanted to look at the bird, for once the bright, shiny, breakable things were not interesting. When we returned on the weekend, she was on her harness, she went straight for the bird cage again. If we go into that store 100 times in the next 2 years I am still going to monitor her every move, she may only ever want to look at the bird, or she might get something in her little toddler head and break something I have to pay for.
Same way with the dogs, if I don't have the time to watch her interaction, I separate them until I can. I joke taking laundry from upstairs to the basement is akin to going through a jail, inmates separated, doors and gates open and close behind you, before you proceed further.  
Kids have to be watched, they will get hurt yes, but try and control it a bit. Eventually they will learn to sit in a chair, does that mean you let them climb the first few times totally on their own? You make sure they can do it safely, and you still watch them that they don't fall once they are proficient.
At one, most kids are walking, they can usually stand on their own, this is an absolute tragedy.


----------



## Elsa'sRHC

For the family, this was an unimaginable tragedy. They will be in my thoughts and prayers. 

Without entering into the argument...a cautionary tale from my own experience:

When my DH and I first got married, we adopted a 3-year-old Newfoundland/GSD cross from the shelter. Murphy was huge, furry, and one of the best dogs to ever walk this earth. He had all of the best of both breeds - the Newfie's extremely laid-back temper, the Newfie love of water, the GSD instinct to protect the family, and the GSD intelligence (among other things). He had been raised around children before we adopted him, but the former family's housing and financial situation had changed and they could not keep him. 

For six years, Murphy was the best dog anyone of either side of the family had met - and we all grew up with dogs. He loved children, loved to play, and was extremely careful of them. He seemed to understand that his 110-pound self could easily knock a child over, so he would gingerly move around little ones. He was beloved by everyone in the neighborhood, and neighbor kids used to come over to ask to play with Murphy. 

When Murph was about 9.5 years old, my 2-year-old daughter was on the floor with him. We, of course, had taught her to pet dogs, not grab fur or pull ears. She simply laid her head against his chest (he was laying down). He, suddenly, growled and snapped at her, very close to her face. It surprised me so much that I said, "Murphy!!!" We, of course, removed her and watched him and her carefully from then on.

Imagine how bad I felt when, six months later, the vet found massive cancer spread through Murphy's entire chest cavity. No doubt her innocent action had caused him great pain. 

I trusted Murphy implicitly, and he had, on more than one occasion, stood fearlessly between the family and danger. But one time, when he was in great pain, was enough to push him to do something I never would have expected - snapping and growling at my daughter. If I hadn't been there, it could have been worse. It was a lesson learned. 

Rest in peace, Murphy, "one who possessed Beauty without Vanity, Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferosity, and all the virtues of Man without his Vices." - Lord Byron


----------



## codmaster

Elsa'sRHC said:


> For the family, this was an unimaginable tragedy. They will be in my thoughts and prayers.
> 
> Without entering into the argument...a cautionary tale from my own experience:
> 
> When my DH and I first got married, we adopted a 3-year-old Newfoundland/GSD cross from the shelter. Murphy was huge, furry, and one of the best dogs to ever walk this earth. He had all of the best of both breeds - the Newfie's extremely laid-back temper, the Newfie love of water, the GSD instinct to protect the family, and the GSD intelligence (among other things). He had been raised around children before we adopted him, but the former family's housing and financial situation had changed and they could not keep him.
> 
> For six years, Murphy was the best dog anyone of either side of the family had met - and we all grew up with dogs. He loved children, loved to play, and was extremely careful of them. He seemed to understand that his 110-pound self could easily knock a child over, so he would gingerly move around little ones. He was beloved by everyone in the neighborhood, and neighbor kids used to come over to ask to play with Murphy.
> 
> When Murph was about 9.5 years old, my 2-year-old daughter was on the floor with him. We, of course, had taught her to pet dogs, not grab fur or pull ears. She simply laid her head against his chest (he was laying down). He, suddenly, growled and snapped at her, very close to her face. It surprised me so much that I said, "Murphy!!!" We, of course, removed her and watched him and her carefully from then on.
> 
> Imagine how bad I felt when, six months later, the vet found massive cancer spread through Murphy's entire chest cavity. No doubt her innocent action had caused him great pain.
> 
> I trusted Murphy implicitly, and he had, on more than one occasion, stood fearlessly between the family and danger. But one time, when he was in great pain, was enough to push him to do something I never would have expected - snapping and growling at my daughter. If I hadn't been there, it could have been worse. It was a lesson learned.
> 
> Rest in peace, Murphy, "one who possessed Beauty without Vanity, Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferosity, and all the virtues of Man without his Vices." - Lord Byron


 
BUT, the difference was (and a BIG one), that he didn't bite her - just warned her!

Any dog (or person!) is very likely to react to great pain! Very different from growling because one walks near the dog or even takes a toy or something - totally different situation (IMOO).


----------



## GregK

codmaster said:


> probably a cool choice.


That's because I'm cool. :snowglobe:


----------



## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> BUT, the difference was (and a BIG one), that he didn't bite her - just warned her!
> 
> Any dog (or person!) is very likely to react to great pain! Very different from growling because one walks near the dog or even takes a toy or something - totally different situation (IMOO).


And most times people scold the dog for growling. Do they think to remove the child? No, but they think the dog should tolerate being pulled and climbed on so they tell Fido, "NO, don't growl at the baby"!

Not saying this is what happened here, but it know it happens all the time.
After so many warnings, the dog gives up and resorts to the bite. 
Again, maybe not in this case, but in so many. 
Some dogs just aren't good for homes with kids in them, period.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> And the last one was directed towards me!!! That was not only incredibly rude, it was horrible and* mean*!!
> 
> Why would you say that?? When I have grown up around dogs and teach my kids respect instead of just letting the kid go nuts with the dog??
> 
> Just mean. I'm sick of your attitude.
> 
> My dog Pepper was one of the best dogs to ever walk the earth. And you have the nerve to fling around insults like the one above, towards me and my dogs!
> 
> Right now, I happen to own a plethora of Dachshunds who've never even been around kids. Why should I try to prove they are "trustworthy", when I care about my granddaughter's face more than being some big shot so I can brag on a freaking forum that my dogs are fine with kids!??


 
WOW! Just saw this response! 

Evidently you cannot "brag forum" about your dogs, eh?

All I was talking about was MY DOGS and MY EXPECTATIONS of a GSWD (only breed that I have ever owned).

Obviously we have VERY different expectations (and dogs as well!). 

Maybe you should try not to take everything I (and others?) say so personally - I wasn't really even thinking about you in particular - just my own experience and expectations. Lower the ego?

If you don't (or can't, for whatever reason) trust your dogs or kids to be together, then absolutely don't. Your decision of course! 

I would personally not have a family pet that I couldn't trust with my child or other family members, BUT our son was also raised from babyhood how to treat the dog as well.

Maybe we were just very lucky in that our dog(s) never bit the kid and the kid never hurt the dog, you think?


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> And most times people scold the dog for growling. Do they think to remove the child? No, but they think the dog should tolerate being pulled and climbed on so they tell Fido, "NO, don't growl at the baby"!
> 
> Not saying this is what happened here, but it know it happens all the time.
> After so many warnings, the dog gives up and resorts to the bite.
> Again, maybe not in this case, but in so many.
> Some dogs just aren't good for homes with kids in them, period.


 
If we are blaming the people again, please think of this. You know how to treat dogs and you have said that you teach your kids to do so - so you want to take the OP dog into your family life??????? (PS my guess is that the answer would be NO!) What you think?

So would you trust this OP dog with your family?


----------



## PatchonGSD

Ugh....the thought of this makes me physically ill. That poor baby. 
I have to say, that even if the child did pull the dogs, hair, ear, or what have you, (which is not OK) I still dont think such a violent response by the dog was warranted. I wouldn't doubt that was more to the story about the dogs past and temperment.


----------

