# Introducing the newest member of the pack



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Introducing Saint's Winston aka Winston. The newest member of my T17 pack. Your eyes are not tricking you, he's not a GSD. I decided to try something different, and go with a Dutch Shepherd. So far I'm really enjoying this guy. 

69478380_10217888913887143_1801475675270414336_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
69818375_10217888914087148_5843867777227554816_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
69916787_10217888914647162_2206282781074391040_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Introducing Saint's Winston aka Winston. The newest member of my T17 pack. Your eyes are not tricking you, he's not a GSD. I decided to try something different, and go with a Dutch Shepherd. So far I'm really enjoying this guy.
> 
> 69478380_10217888913887143_1801475675270414336_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
> 69818375_10217888914087148_5843867777227554816_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
> 69916787_10217888914647162_2206282781074391040_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


Congrats. He is adorable! Can't wait to see what you do with him. And I WILL be watching! 
But does this mean no more puppies?


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Winston is so handsome! Dutch Shepherds are so freaking cool. Congrats & can't wait to see him grow


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Congrats. He is adorable! Can't wait to see what you do with him. And I WILL be watching!
> But does this mean no more puppies?



I will breed again. I'm just not sure when. Life is hectic right now. I have been thinking of a couple litters, just waiting for the right time. I won't be breeding Kimber again, since her back injury, I don't want to put the stress on her. I've talked to my buddy who has Ana vom T17, about using her. I've always called her Kimber 2.0. I just spent a week with them, and they are so much a like you'd swear we cloned Kimber. I will always be a GSD guy, I just wanted to see what I could do with something different. The last few dogs I've raised have either been out of Kimber or before Kimber but the exact lines. I know how they work and what makes them tick. So I wanted to challenge myself with something foreign.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Have fun with the Dutchie! They all have a screw loose but they can be a lot of fun. They are so freaking fast! 

What kennels is he from if you don't mind my asking?


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Awesome! Love me some Dutchies!!!! Where is he from?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Have fun with the Dutchie! They all have a screw loose but they can be a lot of fun. They are so freaking fast!
> 
> What kennels is he from if you don't mind my asking?



He is from Saint Working Dogs in Texas. Her dogs are different than other Dutchies I've worked. Extremely serious, not as over the top. Very civil, but clear headed. I worked some of them while I was out there, and I can say that I've never been manhandled like that from a dog before. They treated me like a tug toy. They are very intense, but it's a different intensity. 

So far Winston has been awesome. Super confident. He has been very independent, crazy possession, will hunt to find every last piece of kibble, and has been an overall easy puppy. I was told that at about 16-18 months is when they change a bit. So that's what I'm waiting to see.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

mycobraracr said:


> He is from Saint Working Dogs in Texas. Her dogs are different than other Dutchies I've worked. Extremely serious, not as over the top. Very civil, but clear headed. I worked some of them while I was out there, and I can say that I've never been manhandled like that from a dog before. They treated me like a tug toy. They are very intense, but it's a different intensity.
> 
> So far Winston has been awesome. Super confident. He has been very independent, crazy possession, will hunt to find every last piece of kibble, and has been an overall easy puppy. I was told that at about 16-18 months is when they change a bit. So that's what I'm waiting to see.


Nice! We have a pup of hers in the club. Solid dogs!


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Beautiful pup!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> He is from Saint Working Dogs in Texas. Her dogs are different than other Dutchies I've worked. Extremely serious, not as over the top. Very civil, but clear headed. I worked some of them while I was out there, and I can say that* I've never been manhandled like that from a dog before. They treated me like a tug toy. They are very intense, but it's a different intensity.*
> 
> So far Winston has been awesome. Super confident. He has been very independent, crazy possession, will hunt to find every last piece of kibble, and has been an overall easy puppy. I was told that at about 16-18 months is when they change a bit. So that's what I'm waiting to see.


That's fantastic! So many Dutchies are just over the top. I've only met a few that were civil at all and not just working in prey. This reminds me of a CWD named Falco. Very serious KNPV dog. Really into his job. Was a great detection dog and a crazy handful to catch. He pulled a guy out of a pond by his head. Drug him up onto the bank kicking and screaming all by himself. That dog had a massive neck.

Looking forward to watching his progress! Are you posting any video on YouTube?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> That's fantastic! So many Dutchies are just over the top. I've only met a few that were civil at all and not just working in prey. This reminds me of a CWD named Falco. Very serious KNPV dog. Really into his job. Was a great detection dog and a crazy handful to catch. He pulled a guy out of a pond by his head. Drug him up onto the bank kicking and screaming all by himself. That dog had a massive neck.
> 
> Looking forward to watching his progress! Are you posting any video on YouTube?



I haven't posted any video yet. I will post to Youtube once I really get going with him. I've just been free shaping some stuff so far and letting him grow up. I've done a couple rag sessions. I want some maturity before I go too crazy with that. Lots of exposure work and stuff for now.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nice! Going to the darkside myself and bringing home a Mal puppy in two days.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > That's fantastic! So many Dutchies are just over the top. I've only met a few that were civil at all and not just working in prey. This reminds me of a CWD named Falco. Very serious KNPV dog. Really into his job. Was a great detection dog and a crazy handful to catch. He pulled a guy out of a pond by his head. Drug him up onto the bank kicking and screaming all by himself. That dog had a massive neck.
> ...


I always disagreed with the old school guys that put crazy pressure on puppies. It takes so much to get all that under control later, and makes it hard for the dog to trust people. Granted, the ones that made it were hard as nails, but I think they would have been anyways. Good genes are good genes. 

I like to just expose the dog to everything in a fun way that teaches them that they can trust me. Are you planning on ring or PSA with him?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

And sorry to hear about Kimber. She looked like a very strong girl. Is she out of commission? Training accident?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> I always disagreed with the old school guys that put crazy pressure on puppies. It takes so much to get all that under control later, and makes it hard for the dog to trust people. Granted, the ones that made it were hard as nails, but I think they would have been anyways. Good genes are good genes.
> 
> I like to just expose the dog to everything in a fun way that teaches them that they can trust me. Are you planning on ring or PSA with him?



Honestly, I'm a little burned out with sports these days. Too much "my dad can beat up your dad" stuff haha. I just train what I like. I will most likely still title him in PSA and WDA, but really just having fun with him. I may end up selling him as a green dog. We will see. 

I really am just planning on taking it slow with him. I don't see a point in pressuring puppies. I've had plenty that will handle whatever you through at them, but why? I'd rather build him slowly to not understand failure and think that he can take on the world and win. IMO, that's how you get a Bad MF'er. Genetically he's a solid puppy already. All I need to do is not mess it up haha.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> And sorry to hear about Kimber. She looked like a very strong girl. Is she out of commission? Training accident?


Thanks! She's not 100% out, but I don't want to do anything to risk flaring it up. It's a lower back injury caused by a lot of jumping and I'm sure rough catches since I haven't had an experienced decoy in the last three years. I'm still doing some PPD type stuff with her. Just no launching to bites. We will be focusing on some detection stuff as well. Just changing her roles a bit. At the end of the day, she's my one in a million heart dog. I'm hoping she will rub off on the Winston. 

I've been doing some stuff like this with her.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nice! Going to the darkside myself and bringing home a Mal puppy in two days.



Nice! Where are you getting him from?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > I always disagreed with the old school guys that put crazy pressure on puppies. It takes so much to get all that under control later, and makes it hard for the dog to trust people. Granted, the ones that made it were hard as nails, but I think they would have been anyways. Good genes are good genes.
> ...


Luckily, for me anyways, a really good dog is hard to mess up. I really like to get NORMAL ingrained into a puppy between 8 weeks and 7 months. Things like house manners, trips to the vet, handling and husbandry, exposure to the world. All the bite work and formal stuff can come later. I do start detection right away if I'm planning on imprinting the dog on odor. 

I use prong and e-collar training for a lot of formal work, so I have to wait anyways.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > And sorry to hear about Kimber. She looked like a very strong girl. Is she out of commission? Training accident?
> ...


Hahaha... Love those shin bites! That left a mark I'm sure. You gotta love it to really be a good decoy.

I stopped doing any long sends with Fama after her back went south. I only did a few bite sessions with her after that. She targeted high arms unless they just weren't available, so it was hard to not put pressure on her back.

I did detection with her right up until the end though. She just loved it. Have you trained detection before?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ah, nice. Is he from the Leeuwen dogs they have?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Hahaha... Love those shin bites! That left a mark I'm sure. You gotta love it to really be a good decoy.
> 
> I stopped doing any long sends with Fama after her back went south. I only did a few bite sessions with her after that. She targeted high arms unless they just weren't available, so it was hard to not put pressure on her back.
> 
> I did detection with her right up until the end though. She just loved it. Have you trained detection before?



That's where I'm at with Kimber. No sends. She's primarily an upper body dog, so keeping her low can get tricky. The building search was nice, because the decoy only had about 6" of his leg exposed. 

I've never formally done detection. Taken a few lessons, read a book or two and listened to some podcasts. So I'm basically Mike Suttle now hahaha. I know just enough to think I know what I'm doing and screw it up. My wife went to a trainer for a while and did really well with her boy. I reached out to him as well to help me out.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Ah, nice. Is he from the Leeuwen dogs they have?



Yes sir! He's out of Click and Dora.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whoa. Get ready, lol.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Whoa. Get ready, lol.



Haha I know! I was getting a puppy from my friend in Holland, but it looks like the female didn't take. So ended up with Winston. When I asked my Holland friend about van Leeuwen lines, she said aggression on top of aggression. Winston should be fun!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Hahaha... Love those shin bites! That left a mark I'm sure. You gotta love it to really be a good decoy.
> ...


Lol... Just watch a bunch of Mike's videos and you will understand enough to get your dog on odor. Here's the highlights.

Only pay the dog for what you want to see. You can work your way towards a final response, but once the dog starts locking up, don't ever pay when they are looking at you. Just wait it out or take a step back.

Just like anything else, add duration or distance, never both.

Run blind hides as soon as possible because you WILL cue your dog in ways you don't realize. Always have whoever placed your hides there to let you know the dog isn't false responding.

Start with box drills. Whenever you have trouble with the dog, go back to box drills. That's where you shape the initial behavior and final response. If those get FUBAR, go back to box drills and tune it up. Just like everything else, reps matter. You can get a lot of reps on box drills, and you can control everything.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Nice! Where are you getting him from?


She is from a small local breeder that has worked their dogs in SAR, cadaver, etc., for years. Both parents are SAR and the grandparents are all LE.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nice! Going to the darkside myself and bringing home a Mal puppy in two days.


Good luck and have fun! 

My biggest challenge with Mals was timing. They move so fast, mentally, that you need to be really on the ball and anticipating behaviors to be (as) effective in training. Take a GSD and turn it up to 11. Just be ready to click and move on.

They are typically forgiving. Have ball = best friend. 

You can literally get 2376 reps of any exercise in a day. They recharge like crazy. I think you will have a lot of fun! Keep us posted please.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Good luck and have fun!
> 
> My biggest challenge with Mals was timing. They move so fast, mentally, that you need to be really on the ball and anticipating behaviors to be (as) effective in training. Take a GSD and turn it up to 11. Just be ready to click and move on.
> 
> ...


Will do. I guess I will get a refresher course on the term "novice". LOL


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Good luck and have fun!
> ...


I doubt that, but there was definitely a learning curve involved for me. I developed my timing on a GSD and just had to learn to ratchet it up a notch or 7 on mals.

So fast lol.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here is a good example of one of ****'s van Leeuwen dogs.




His dogs are exceptional and unique and good luck getting a top flyer if he were to sell you a pup. He sells the lesser of his dogs and keeps the best for his breeding program and friends so he can see what he is producing. He believes in very close line breeding.
David, do you think this Dutchie is civil and what drive state do you think he is in?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Here is a good example of one of ****'s van Leeuwen dogs.
> https://youtu.be/NZ12WunSpS4
> His dogs are exceptional and unique and good luck getting a top flyer if he were to sell you a pup. He sells the lesser of his dogs and keeps the best for his breeding program and friends so he can see what he is producing. He believes in very close line breeding.
> David, do you think this Dutchie is civil and what drive state do you think he is in?



My pup is super heavy on Wibo. I'll post is parents pedigrees at the bottom. 

The breeder I got Winston from is really good friends with the van Leeuwen's. The day I got Winston, I was at her facility working dogs. Before we started I said I was shopping, I looked at a couple litters, and a couple younger dogs. After I decoyed dogs all day, the breeder asked what puppies/dogs I was leaning towards. So I told her. She told me Winston was her favorite. I hadn't looked at him because she said she was keeping him. So she pulls him out, he runs right into the barn and into my arms. I played with him for a few seconds, looked up and said "sold". I paid her instantly haha. Her face dropped. I don't think she was expecting that. Either way I'm happy with him so far. He's challenging me in ways that my GSD's haven't. That's what I was looking for. 

Sire-https://www.bloedlijnen.nl/

Dam-https://www.bloedlijnen.nl/


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

From what I have heard, you can expect to see angry, confident aggression, dominance, and social aggression. Pretty much a dog that you don't let near strangers, although, that is not always the case. The dominance should not be too much of an issue since you got him as a pup. A much bigger problem is when one of the Dutch dogs is trained in KNPV and then is sold as a police dog candidate and is an old style police type dog, there can be a lot of conflict with a new handler due to the dominance. But Wibo is an exceptional dog and not all of his offspring will be like him.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Here is a good example of one of ****'s van Leeuwen dogs.
> https://youtu.be/NZ12WunSpS4
> His dogs are exceptional and unique and good luck getting a top flyer if he were to sell you a pup. He sells the lesser of his dogs and keeps the best for his breeding program and friends so he can see what he is producing. He believes in very close line breeding.
> David, do you think this Dutchie is civil and what drive state do you think he is in?


He's totally comfortable without any prey barking even though he knows he's getting a bite and being restrained. Very controlled and serious for a Dutchie. Keeps driving into the bite. I like him a lot. Definitely not a prey monkey IMO. This isn't your typical Mal or Dutchie now a days.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Lol... Just watch a bunch of Mike's videos and you will understand enough to get your dog on odor. Here's the highlights.
> 
> Only pay the dog for what you want to see. You can work your way towards a final response, but once the dog starts locking up, don't ever pay when they are looking at you. Just wait it out or take a step back.
> 
> ...



Kimber was started on boxes a couple years ago. That's about as far as we got. 

I'm a huge believer in blind hides. I do the same for building searches. I don't want to know where the decoy is. Kimber can read me like a book, so even as little as an eye twitch could get her into an area. I swear she can read my mind. So much so, that I offered my club $20 to the person who could see if I was giving any body cue. To this day, I don't know what she picks up on, but if I think something she does it. 

Thanks for the tips!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> From what I have heard, you can expect to see angry, confident aggression, dominance, and social aggression. Pretty much a dog that you don't let near strangers, although, that is not always the case.



Yes, this is what I experienced in the dogs I worked. Also one of the reasons I wanted to start with a puppy and not an older dog. Even at 12 weeks, Winston was pushing the age I wanted to start. I deal with issues in other people dogs for a living, I don't have the desire to do it on my own dogs. I'd rather start with a baby and set the correct foundation. I have seen them switch handlers ok, but it needs to be the right handler, and it's not an overnight exchange. It takes them a little while to bond to someone.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Kimber was started on boxes a couple years ago. That's about as far as we got.
> 
> I'm a huge believer in blind hides. I do the same for building searches. I don't want to know where the decoy is. Kimber can read me like a book, so even as little as an eye twitch could get her into an area. I swear she can read my mind. So much so, that I offered my club $20 to the person who could see if I was giving any body cue. To this day, I don't know what she picks up on, but if I think something she does it.
> 
> Thanks for the tips!


You bet!

And Fama was the same. I could go an entire day and not say 2 words to that dog. She just did whatever I was thinking. It's a great thing huh


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

He's cute! Looks like he'll be a handful, lol.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I really liked Kimber- are you thinking this new guy will be as socially discerning as she is? She sounds like such a perfect dog- great with kids, great in public, but hard in the work (and pretty, too). I love that balance in a dog. It's what first drew me to GSD and malinois. 

I've never found that being social has any impact on the dog's performance in work. Just curious if you expect a real civil dog (needs to be strictly controlled in public) in this pup as he matures. Again, to each their own and I'm sure you're more than capable as a handler to meet the challenge!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Saco said:


> I really liked Kimber- are you thinking this new guy will be as socially discerning as she is? She sounds like such a perfect dog- great with kids, great in public, but hard in the work (and pretty, too). I love that balance in a dog. It's what first drew me to GSD and malinois.
> 
> I've never found that being social has any impact on the dog's performance in work. Just curious if you expect a real civil dog (needs to be strictly controlled in public) in this pup as he matures. Again, to each their own and I'm sure you're more than capable as a handler to meet the challenge!




Kimber is one of the most clear headed (discerning) dogs I've ever met. Just a couple weeks ago, on our road trip, I put her harness on which instantly means bite work to her, so she was head hunting. My friends 6 year old kid popped around the corner right in front of Kimber. She went from head hunting looking for anyone to bite to ears down, tail wagging and licking my buddies kid in a fraction of a second. As soon as the kid left she was right back to head hunting and to her first bite. This is why she's my one in a million. I trust her more than I trust anyone. 

Genetically, I don't expect this pup to be that way. I think he is going to need a very vigilant and aware handler. I'm trying something slightly different than normal with the new pup, and I've paired him with Kimber a lot. I'm hoping that he will read her and take her lead when in public. Will it work? I don't know but it's worth a shot. I've done similar things with my client dogs in the past, just for different behavioral traits. Usually dogs that are afraid. For Winston, how he is in public is going to be a large determining factor on if I keep him or not. I don't expect him to be social, but he needs to be stable in public. I went and walked him through downtown today to start getting him used to it, the people, noises and so on. So only time will tell. 

Honestly, my 12 year old GSD is super civil. Stable in public, as long as I can keep people from touching her. One pet and you're getting bit. She wasn't bad to handle, but not as much fun as Kimber.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Saco said:


> I really liked Kimber- are you thinking this new guy will be as socially discerning as she is? She sounds like such a perfect dog- great with kids, great in public, but hard in the work (and pretty, too). I love that balance in a dog. It's what first drew me to GSD and malinois.
> 
> I've never found that being social has any impact on the dog's performance in work. Just curious if you expect a real civil dog (needs to be strictly controlled in public) in this pup as he matures. Again, to each their own and I'm sure you're more than capable as a handler to meet the challenge!



And since you brought up Kimber being well rounded. While I was in Texas, I ended up speding a few days helping out at the Warrior Dog Foundation. They were a little undermanned at the moment, so why not go scrub kennels and pick up poop on my vacation lol. Well one day I was out there for 11-12 hours, so I left Kimber at my friends. A few hours later I got these texts from my friends wife. Words can not describe how much I love Kimber. 

67912776_10217778395564254_8470641218223603712_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

68338632_10217778395484252_5959738981192040448_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Kimber is one of the most clear headed (discerning) dogs I've ever met. Just a couple weeks ago, on our road trip, I put her harness on which instantly means bite work to her, so she was head hunting. My friends 6 year old kid popped around the corner right in front of Kimber. She went from head hunting looking for anyone to bite to ears down, tail wagging and licking my buddies kid in a fraction of a second. As soon as the kid left she was right back to head hunting and to her first bite. This is why she's my one in a million. I trust her more than I trust anyone.


She sounds just like Sabs. I am very afraid I will never find another one. 
Can you get some videos of your new guy? I really enjoy watching how you work with your dogs.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> She sounds just like Sabs. I am very afraid I will never find another one.
> Can you get some videos of your new guy? I really enjoy watching how you work with your dogs.



Thanks!  Absolutely! I want need some video of him. I just have been working him all alone, so no one to record for me.


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