# Socialization vs Training (Which comes first?)



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Ok, so many of you know that I have been in a constant struggle with Kaiya's socialization, and being that I am new to the breed, I have been reaching out to as many resources as possible. Here recently, in separate forums I have received some conflicting advice, so wanted to take another shot at it.

Forum #1 ~ Basically says that socialization is extremely important in raising a good pup and should be done ASAP. Exposure, Exposure, Exposure... My take from this forum and responses is that socialization comes first, training second...

Forum #2 ~ Advised me that I should not be exposing my pup to anything until I can get her training down SOLID, and then I should gradually introduce distractions when I know she is ready for them.

Both forums gave valid viewpoints, but both have left me on the fence with my struggle. Up until today, Kaiya's training has been non-existent in any setting outside the boundaries of our home. The only command she would do was a sit, but with little or no focus whatsoever. We have been working on this and with a trainer. However, a trip to Petsmart yesterday was a complete disaster because of the non-stop flow of people and dogs from all directions. Trying to perform corrective behavior was useless in that environment. This morning I took her to an empty park and worked with her for a good hour on various things, trying to make it fun. It took nearly 20 min to get her into a Down position. Everything was a distraction, trees blowing, leaves, sticks, pedestrians 100 yds away~everything! However, when we returned this afternoon meeting up with Betsy and Ava it was completely different. After maybe 20-30 min, she became as relaxed as if we were at home. We went through all of our commands fairly easily and even did some great heeling. My impression was that she fed off of Ava. Ava was comfortable in her surroundings, so Kaiya became comfortable. Towards the end of our outing, all of the things that had her on edge just this morning, didn't even seem to phase her. Another dog even walked past, and I watched her look, but not react. Instead she kept her focus on me and Ava. Now I have no idea if this will carry over to tomorrow or if she will always need that crutch (like Ava) to give her a sense of security in new surroundings? Because I feel like I'm not giving it to her.

So my question is, which advice to I go with?? And if I go with #2, how will I KNOW when she is ready for these distractions? Or am I just pushing too hard with Petsmart and that type of environment? Should I just continue to socialize but with minimal distractions until I see consistent improvement? Thanks for the help everyone!

P.S. Sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record on this issue...


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I will have to say, from what I saw of Kaiya, she is an awesome pup. The initial reactions to Ava were frustration but by sticking with it I think that was a huge help. She did learn today that big strange dogs arent a bad thing, and you can even chew on them a little. I personally think the novelty of the scary trees, scary dogs etc.........will transition into just another tree and just another dog, just like it did today. I think one of the thoughts with the first line of thinking is not to set the dog up to fail. But I think you saw the difference immediately when Kaiya's attention shifted and you regained her focus.............That was a huge step forward. I think just by not expecting too much when she is out in new situations until you see that calm, once she's there, you will have focus again. At least that is what I saw today, she was distracted at first, then a bit frustrated, then, oh, okay, this is fun, what do we do now mom? Petsmart may be a bit much to expect obedience, but maybe outside Petsmart on the sidewalk a little ways away....then get closer as she gains confidence?


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I think socialization is completely different than training with distraction. Apples and oranges. Socialization early on is extremely important due to "a window of opportunity" where the pups are generally open to new environments and situations without becoming overly fearful or anxious. I guess you could say they are kind of carefree. Some training can be done hand in hand with socialization including teaching manners and appropriate greeting behaviors. That is not to say that you can't work on some basic puppy training alongside socialization. Does that make sense? But socialization is key and is sadly often overlooked.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I have always done both with my dogs. Keyzah is the same age and has quite a list of commands and she is pretty good with them at home and most of the more common ones she will do in public too. 

Some of her recent exploits:

Nerve Brag 


Socializing and Training 


Keyzah's training the thinking dog thread


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I agree socialization and training are two different things. I socialize Zoe by taking her EVERYWHERE. Around dogs, through town, and in the homes of strangers every single day. We train at home every single day as well and when I feel she has a solid hold on the basics I will introduce distractions, but I keep socialization fun for her now and just for play.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

BTW Keyzah is one day younger than your pup. While the "thinking dog" thread is not a daily diary type is does give an overall idea of what seems to be working for her. She is very well adjusted and loves to learn. She eagerly goes new places, meets new people and is willing to do some of her newer "tricks". I do add to it when we add more stuff to our training. Yesterday was one of her first major no strings attached (no leashes) outings with another dog. She HAPPILY performed long distance recalls even with Rayne still running and playing in the same field.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I think the problem is in Kaiya's case, is it is hard to take a spastically barking to places and not let you own frustration creep in. She is a puppy, she is learning, and I dont think Tina is asking for anything other than two things when taking her places like petsmart. Not to constantly bark like a maniac when people or dogs are around and not to pull on the leash. She is a big girl, and when you have a dog out in public that is constantly barking, other people around dont seem to help much. Could this even be considered counter productive? So while trying to expose the puppy to everything, I think she is trying to address the current reactiveness of the puppy. She did great today, she didnt bark at any people we ran in to, she didnt pull too much, she didnt bark at other dogs, only Ava when we first met up and that only lasted a few minutes before she settled. But trying to take her to petsmart is a totally different thing, or even out into new situations. I guess the question is also, how much was she using Ava as a crutch, was it even a crutch, and is that necessarily a bad thing?

by the way............the "bang" command was fabulous, LOL


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: gsdlove212I think socialization is completely different than training with distraction. Apples and oranges. Socialization early on is extremely important due to "a window of opportunity" where the pups are generally open to new environments and situations without becoming overly fearful or anxious. I guess you could say they are kind of carefree. Some training can be done hand in hand with socialization including teaching manners and appropriate greeting behaviors. That is not to say that you can't work on some basic puppy training alongside socialization. Does that make sense? But socialization is key and is sadly often overlooked.


This makes sense, but I often wonder if I didn't miss that window?? Her reaction to other dogs worries me more than her reaction to new people (the hackles raised, barking, and charging or pulling towards them). I got her at 9 weeks, and didn't really start taking her out places until 15 wks because I didn't want to expose her to anything until she had her second set of vaccinations. I'm just struggling to control her reactions in these type situations. I don't know if I will ever venture into a Petsmart again, but I don't know how to fight this insecurity she's displaying, and right now I know she wouldn't hurt another dog, but I worry about her in the future. The only way I've found to deter the barking and hackles raised is to allow her to approach the other dog. But it seems that if I do this, then I'm showing that this behavior is ok? With Betsy and Ava, it was easier because Betsy knew her background, and we were able to give her time to calm and gradually approach with the correct behavior. But Betsy and Ava live almost an hour away, and I know other dog owners won't have this type of patience for her. What else can I do?? Treats are absolutely useless in these situations...


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyI think the problem is in Kaiya's case, is it is hard to take a spastically barking pup to places and not let you own frustration creep in... I guess the question is also, how much was she using Ava as a crutch, was it even a crutch, and is that necessarily a bad thing?
> 
> by the way............the "bang" command was fabulous, LOL


My thoughts exactly... Can I borrow Ava until she grows up? LOL


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

How long are you staying in Petsmart? When I take Ike to places like that for socialization, it's in and out. 3-5 minutes top. And during that whole time I am basically talking to him nonstop, stuffing his face with food. When I take him to a new place or a highly stimulating environment, all I want from him is engagement. That's the extent of his training. I don't ask him to do any formal obedience stuff (not that he knows any LOL). As long as I have his attention, as long he is focused on me, I'm happy.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

You went back to the same park and she was better, right? I had that trouble with Otto - strange place, over stimulated, over reacting puppy.

Plan on taking her somewhere new and completely different atleast once a week. Repeat the places you've been but do it slightly different - like if you drive down town to socialize, park on a different street, walk a different direction. 

Keep her guessing, keep the mind working, always increasing the size of her comfort circle.

Back to the original question, training and socializing go together. I lean more towards training, doing more at home where the dog is comfortable.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinHow long are you staying in Petsmart? When I take Ike to places like that for socialization, it's in and out. 3-5 minutes top. And during that whole time I am basically talking to him nonstop, stuffing his face with food. When I take him to a new place or a highly stimulating environment, all I want from him is engagement. That's the extent of his training. I don't ask him to do any formal obedience stuff (not that he knows any LOL). As long as I have his attention, as long he is focused on me, I'm happy.


We're usually there no more than 15 min. Yesterday was a little longer, as I was trying to get her used to being in there. I honestly don't try to get her to do anything outside of sitting and focusing on me in these type environments, but even that is a bit of work. Just trying to keep her calm is enough work! Yesterday I felt like one of those parents with the uncontrollable child in the store that won't stop screaming? That was my Kaiya with the barking. And the looks? Ugh... One smarta$$ even commented, "Well, you wanted a guard dog right?"







I had to bite my tongue before we were both permanently banned from the store!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaYou went back to the same park and she was better, right? I had that trouble with Otto - strange place, over stimulated, over reacting puppy.


Same place, but we incorporated Ava into the equation. Her focus went from her new surroundings, to the new playmate, and all the other scary stuff was soon forgotten, and then Ava became part of the scene and she turned her focus back on me. But we were there 2 hours...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:Forum #1 ~ Basically says that socialization is extremely important in raising a good pup and should be done ASAP. Exposure, Exposure, Exposure... My take from this forum and responses is that socialization comes first, training second...


When I get a puppy I focus on socialization, cause those are windows that open and slam shut as time goes by. But that CERTAINLY doesn't mean I don't do any training at all.

The 'training' I do is all fun fun fun though. So the puppy thinks it's all one big game that they have trained ME so when the clever pup does something I give them a treat! Look mom, how about a 'sit' TREAT! 'Down' then a TREAT! Playing (tug or fetch, but tug is better!) is a huge fun focus thing that I 'train' my dogs. 

All the tricks are training. But fun fun fun for the puppy so they are learning to LOVE to listen, learn and figure out what the heck silly mom is asking them to do. 

And if a puppy doesn't sit? SO WHAT!!! No treat. Doesn't 'down', no treat. While I figure out how to break this down so they want to do what I'm asking (play the game?). Better treats? Hungrier puppy? Shorter training sessions? Less distractions in the room?

If your dog is currently too excited too close to something, increase the distance. Go to a park and find a bench to just sit with your puppy and watch the world go past. Stay outside Petsmart and just be a greeter. 

CLICKER TRAINING is such a help with this. Clear to the puppy, forces us to reward all the time (we tend to be better at corrections than timely praise the pups really understand and learn from).


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I think that maybe I'm being misunderstood. The actual training is not an issue, Kaiya LOVES to learn and I use the clicker reward system and she does great! She's an absolute doll at home. Listens very well, recalls great, the whole nine. So I want to get her socialized, but the whole act is exhausting, frustrating, and worrisome. Because here's the scenario...the minute we step out the car into a new place, especially where there might be other dogs~

All of the hackles are raised
She's tugging and charging forward relentlessly, often to the point of standing on her hind legs
And barking crazily

People and their dogs quickly move away, and no treat in the world will pull her back to calm. The only solution I have currently seen work, besides the presence of Ava the Sweet, is to completely remove her from the situation or get her into a position where she can't see the object of her attention. But I don't see how removing her or blinding her from these things is helping her progress. And I don't know enough people like Betsy and Ava to fully expose her like we did today to a new dog and surroundings. So I guess this is where I need the help at...What in the heck do I do??


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Socialize socialize socialize!

I'm working on this now with Anna (see http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1332267&page=1#Post1332267)

She's great with dogs, but gets nervous in new places. I thought I did enough, but I didn't. So now we're playing catch up. 

When we go to Petsmart, I go on nights that aren't too crowded and we hang around in the back, working on walking pretty and watching me. One night we were there for two hours, 30 min of which was just spent sitting in a corner letting her watch everyone, and this last time one hour. 

I can tell a difference now, just after these sessions. She used to hate Petsmart so I quit going. But now, we're going and she's getting good in there and now most new places. She's learning to look at me when she's unsure. 

But if your pup can only handle a short period of time, don't push it. Sit outside far enough from dogs or find a nice corner to sit in.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

socializing; training, ummm. i got my puppy when he 9
weeks old. we started puppy classes at 10 weeks. during the week
i had people visit with their dogs and pups. i invited family,
friends and neighbors to visit all of the time. someitmes i would put my pup in the yard and have my neighbors play with him. they
would reach over the fence, put their fingers through the cyclone
fencing to pet and treat my dog. 

the Supermarket was a great place to hang out (in
front of the Supermarket doors). i knew we were going to spend a lot of time in the woods where we would encounter horses so
i visted horse farms. when we were in the woods i made sure we walked near the ducks and geese. i exposed my dog to all sorts
of things. we socialized everyday in sort of way.

i didn't really start training my dog untill he was 4 months old.
he was house broken, crate trained, he knew his name and maybe
he knew "come". at 4 months old we started private lessons.
after private lessons we started group lessons. we trained in sessions. each session lasted 5 to 10 minutes. sometimes we had 10 sessions a day. we worked on one thing at a time.

during my dogs training we slowly added in distractions. what ever he was learning we did it without distractions in the begining. once
he got a grip on what i was teaching i added in all sorts of distractions but i added the distractions slowly. we went from easy distractions to harder distractions.

i fine working with a dog several times a day for short
periods of time is very effective. i always trained indoors and outdoors. socailizing and socializing and socializing, training
and consistency makes a good dog. a sound tempermant and strong
nerves really helps also but all of that credit goes to the breeder.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when did you start training and socializing your dog???



> Originally Posted By: Tihannah So I want to get her socialized, but the whole act is exhausting, frustrating, and worrisome. Because here's the scenario...the minute we step out the car into a new place, especially where there might be other dogs~
> 
> All of the hackles are raised
> She's tugging and charging forward relentlessly, often to the point of standing on her hind legs
> And barking crazily


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhen did you start training and socializing your dog??



I started late. Both around 15 wks. Originally she was a Xmas gift for my husband, but as the weeks passed and I saw that he wasn't going to invest the REAL time she needed, I started researching and took over... Which is why I suspect that I missed that crucial window for socialization.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Awww, Ava the Sweet. Thanks Tina, One thing I thought of is turning your back to whatever has her attention, step on the leash (I think that will keep the pressure off her throat when she is pulling so hard) and just kinda relax and wait her out and then just use the clicker when she calms. You can park further away from the store entrance and start working on it far away from the entrance of the store. It is a good excercise for Ava too. She gets worked up as well, but today, when I turned my back on you when Ava was excited, it was kinda to do this very thing. It helped a lot, after all, I wasnt even worried enough to look, why should she be, right? I also think the way we just went about our business without reacting to what the puppers was up to helped a lot too, stopping when she pulled, waiting for the slack and then continuing. She wanted to be up with Ava and me, and it sure didnt take her any time at all to realize that pulling was not getting her there.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Does she have a favorite TOY. Rewards do not always have to be treats.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

This is basically what I have been attempting to do, and what Lynn instructed me to do. But it seems that with each distraction, she does the same thing. Today was the first REAL progress I've seen. I don't know. Maybe I'm just tired and letting my frustration get the better of me. She's a really good dog and I love her to death, even though she just ran and jumped her entire body onto my chest while I was laying down knocking the gawd awful wind out of me cause she wanted to play ball!!







I just keep thinking that there's something I'm missing, or something I'm not doing to help alleviate her stress and discomfort in these new situations. Perhaps time and consistency is the real solution??


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

If you are stressed and frustrated she will feel it though the leash.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqDoes she have a favorite TOY. Rewards do not always have to be treats.


I tried her favorite ball this morning. It was how I eventually got her into a down. But even that didn't help much. I even tried to make it fun and throw it and try to race her to it. She would run after it, but wouldn't even bother to pick it up.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqDoes she have a favorite TOY. Rewards do not always have to be treats.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqIf you are stressed and frustrated she will feel it though the leash.


I know... And I try to keep this going in my head during these periods. I think it hits me more afterwards when we get back home or on the drive back. I feel exhausted. And the frustration is more with myself than her because I feel like I should have a better handle on this...


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Well, you ended today on a good note with your outing. By the way............Kaiya wore Ava out........LOL Ava is sacked out!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: All of the hackles are raised
> She's tugging and charging forward relentlessly, often to the point of standing on her hind legs
> And barking crazily


Sounds like she's just over the top excited to me.... 

DISTANCE should be the key here. You need to figure out what distance (a mile?) you can be with your pup that they see/notice other dogs/people but still is able to pay attention to you.

Once she's flipped out, you are right, there is nothing you can do and no 'training' going on. Added to the fact you may be also having to pull and yell (cause of the barking) and that's just adding more excitment to the mess and egging her on (accidentally) rather then de-escalating.

Only decrease the distance (the mile off







) as you ARE progressing and you pup is able to now cue from you and not going into freakout land!


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

I’m really going to go out on a limb here and say I never worried much about socialization – I worried more about training. I never planned to walk either one of them around Pet Smart or the doggie park, and I never really cared if they had play-dates with other dogs. I wanted well-behaved dogs at home, when they went to the vet’s, and when we had company. Obedience taught them to ignore other dogs on walks, and to me, that was more important than showing them how to play nice with them.

Sorry if I’m the oddball…


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

In some ways Jan, I agree with you. If I am headed out to Petsmart or somewhere yep I'll take a dog with me. However, the closest Petsmart/Petco is over 60 miles one way. The only time I usually head that way is when I am going to get dog food. My guys eat raw so we do not shop for food (or much of anything) at the pet stores so I also have to take into consideration the time they will have to wait in the van while I am getting their shopping done and the weather, etc. 

Granted I can socialize with other dogs in my home but I seldom have visitors. I DO work on OB and building a strong working bond with my pups when they are young so when I do take them out and about they have already learned FUN stuff happens with me. With two dogs under 13 months (Jethro JUST turned a year and Keyzah is 19 weeks) who will BOTH do fast recalls when they are off leash playing with other dogs, both dogs will go to the fence (baseball fields so they are in a HUGE fenced area- secure for me but "free" in their minds) and check out whatever dogs may be walking outside of the fence but neither so far have been reactive to them and both come PDQ when I call them.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GrandJanI’m really going to go out on a limb here and say I never worried much about socialization – I worried more about training. I never planned to walk either one of them around Pet Smart or the doggie park, and I never really cared if they had play-dates with other dogs. I wanted well-behaved dogs at home, when they went to the vet’s, and when we had company. Obedience taught them to ignore other dogs on walks, and to me, that was more important than showing them how to play nice with them.
> 
> Sorry if I’m the oddball…


And this is the mentality I got from the other forum. But how did you get them to where they ignored other dogs on walks?? I would love it if she did that, but not sure how to get her to that point?


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

That is where making everything you do more important to your dog than anything anyone else is doing. And it doesn’t happen overnight. Mine are food-driven, so all training was done with treats. Start a short walk; decide you don’t want your dog looking at a certain tree; call his name to get his attention and treat. Do this time and time again. Don’t just wait to run into other animals. You want his attention the minute you call his name, so practice on anything, and practice a lot. I think, in a way, this is distraction in reverse. You want to distract his attention from what you don’t want him seeing/doing, so you call and treat. It also relieves some of the frustration of seeing other dogs but not being able to get to them because you, as the owner, don't know how yet to make him behave.

When you are to the point where your dog will respond to you immediately, start adding in dogs on the other side of the street. Again, distract and treat. Gradually work up to walking right past another dog. 

Be alert to your dog though. There are times I just KNOW mine will have trouble ignoring another dog/cat, so I just immediately turn around and walk the other way. Sometimes avoiding a battle is just as important as winning one.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks! This is good info, but a lot of times she is in a state where she can care less about the treat. Just Sunday, we were in a large open field~ no dogs, no people, but even the treats couldn't bring her focus back to me. I was practically holding them up under her nose and it seemed like she was only taking them just to appease me-lol. I will keep working on this though, and appreciate all the tips from everyone...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Did you mention how many miles of exercise you are giving your pup currently?

Maybe if you can really wear her out she won't go so instantly into crazy world. 

And if the treats don't work so much how is the play/tugging going?


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Tihannah...but a lot of times she is in a state where she can care less about the treat. Just Sunday, we were in a large open field~ no dogs, no people, but even the treats couldn't bring her focus back to me...


I would probably still be working her on a long line at this age and with so much open space. That's a big world out there for a little girl with a lot of neat stuff going on! Even if you have to stand on your head, make her focus be on you.


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## riorider (Jul 21, 2009)

Try going on walks where she's moving instead of stores where she can keep her focus on dogs. If you walk by another dog and she pitches a fit, ignore her and keep right on going, when she stops the fit and is calm, reward her. When she is walking calmly (doing the right thing) even if there are no other dogs around, reward her and tell her that is the behavior you want.

After awhile, coax her into "watch me" when you see another dog aproaching. If she does- reward her greatly, if she doesn't, ignore the behavior and always keep moving. She'll get it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Training under distraction and socialization are two entirely different things. You can certainly do both at the same time, but when you start training under distraction you need to lower your criteria and adjust your expectations. You should also only attempt to increase distractions in very small increments. Rather than going from around the house to PetSmart, try going from in the house to your backyard, then the sidewalk in front of your house, then in an empty parking lot or other place with not a lot of interesting stuff going on, but novel for her, then maybe outside a baseball field or basketball court but at a distance..... Get her competent at each level before moving to the next level, and understand that you may need to go back to luring with a treat at first. Don't be discouraged if it seems like you're starting over with each behavior, because in a sense you ARE by training in a completely new environment. Try to remain calm so she doesn't feed off your frustration. 

Socialization is exposing her to new people/places/circumstances. It can involve exposing her to other dogs, or not. It can involve her seeing them at a distance, or even just knowing there's a dog over there somewhere but she can't actually see it. It can involve her greeting other dogs in a friendly manner and interacting with them, or learning to ignore and tune them out. That's a decision that's entirely up to you. Her training definitely does not need to be perfect before you start exposing her to new experiences, and again, when you do, expect that all your prior training may go out the window and she'll act like she has no idea what any of your commands mean. In those kinds of situations I don't use my formal commands. Why ask for a recall or a heel when you know you're not going to get one? Stick a meatball in front of her nose, say "let's go!" in a happy tone of voice, and lure her head around and turn away from the distraction rather than getting frustrated that she's ignoring you. Get her comfortable in that kind of environment before you actually start expecting much from her. One thing I like to do with Halo in a new place is just stand there or sit with her quietly and click/treat every time she looks at me. I don't give her any commands, I just wait for her to offer me something I like. She's not disobeying me because I haven't asked her to do anything in particular. As Ruq and MRL pointed out, a toy can be a great distraction too. Try a tug toy or a ball on a rope, and play with her at home first, until she's really into it and then bring it with you.



> Originally Posted By: TihannahThis morning I took her to an empty park and worked with her for a good hour on various things, trying to make it fun. It took nearly 20 min to get her into a Down position. Everything was a distraction, trees blowing, leaves, sticks, pedestrians 100 yds away~everything! However, when we returned this afternoon meeting up with Betsy and Ava it was completely different. After maybe 20-30 min, she became as relaxed as if we were at home. We went through all of our commands fairly easily and even did some great heeling. My impression was that she fed off of Ava. Ava was comfortable in her surroundings, so Kaiya became comfortable. Towards the end of our outing, all of the things that had her on edge just this morning, didn't even seem to phase her. Another dog even walked past, and I watched her look, but not react. Instead she kept her focus on me and Ava. Now I have no idea if this will carry over to tomorrow or if she will always need that crutch (like Ava) to give her a sense of security in new surroundings? Because I feel like I'm not giving it to her.


It could be partly because she was around a calm dog who was not reacting, but it could also have been because this was no longer a novel place. The first time I took Halo for a training walk at the lake it took me at least 20 minutes to walk the half block from the car to the park entrance. At LEAST 20 minutes. It might have even been more. She went from perfect at home, to practically perfect walking in the neighborhood and even around a strip mall with tons of distractions, to unbelievably horrid in one fell swoop. I swear she looked like she'd never been on a leash before and that I'd never spent a minute training her. It was extremely frustrating, and I wondered if that was simply too big a leap for her and I should look for an interim step before trying there again. But I stuck it out, I kept going back, and now she hardly glances at all the distractions, although yesterday she did try to launch herself at a squirrel, lol! But bikes whizzing past in both directions, families with toddlers and babies in strollers, joggers, no problem at all. And we saw a half dozen other dogs too, and each time I put her in a sit at the side of the trail and played the Look At That! game with her as they passed. Not a single bark. I wouldn't be surprised if she acted up a bit if I take her to a new, similarly distracting place, but I know that we'll be able to work through it if I'm patient and persistent and don't expect too much at first.

So keep going back there and working with her, and other new places too. The more new stuff she's exposed to, the less exciting it will be and the better she'll be at tuning out the distractions and working with you. You did miss the most critical socialization window, but that doesn't mean that all is lost, you still need to continue with the socialization, it may just be more challenging.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Thank you, Debbie. This is a great post and makes me feel a lot better about the whole situation. It gives me a better approach to the situation. And perhaps it was the return trip and not just Ava that contributed to her finally relaxing. It was our 3rd trip there in 2 days. I also like the idea of taking her somewhere and just letting her sit to watch the people or things going by. I think this will definitely help! I also think that part of the frustration was that I was wanting too much from her in a new environment~sitting, focus, and practicing other commands. I will now remind myself that just getting her relaxed and calm in these environments will be my goal, and training will be saved for at home or when I know she is completely relaxed and ready. I will try to bring more treats and toys with me for these times as well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: TihannahI also think that part of the frustration was that I was wanting too much from her in a new environment~sitting, focus, and practicing other commands. I will now remind myself that just getting her relaxed and calm in these environments will be my goal, and training will be saved for at home or when I know she is completely relaxed and ready.


Absolutely. When she's somewhat calm and focused, start small, with the easiest commands that she's known the longest and work up to more challenging skills. Even if she responds immediately 100% of the time to a verbal command at home, don't worry if you need to use a hand signal or even a lure at first - it won't be forever. As most trainers will tell you: "baby steps".


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, one thing I wanted to mention too is the importance of lowering your criteria. That's one thing that Leslie McDevitt really stresses in her wonderful book Control Unleashed - if your dog is not performing as you expect in new or stressful circumstances you need to lower the criteria until they can succeed, and then _gradually_ increase it again. 

It's so easy for us to get caught up in our own frustration - "but he KNOWS how to do that!" or "but she's PERFECT at home!" that we fail to realize that for the dog, it's different, it's not the same thing at all. Just because we think they've learned something, they may not have generalized the command yet and know that it means the exact same thing no matter where they are or what they're doing or what is going on around them. If we're aware of that and adjust for it, it's much easier to avoid getting frustrated. So rather than thinking "why is she being like this?" think "what can I do to make this easier so she'll succeed?". Try to look at it from the dogs perspective.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomOh, one thing I wanted to mention too is the importance of lowering your criteria. That's one thing that Leslie McDevitt really stresses in her wonderful book Control Unleashed - if your dog is not performing as you expect in new or stressful circumstances you need to lower the criteria until they can succeed, and then _gradually_ increase it again.
> 
> It's so easy for us to get caught up in our own frustration - "but he KNOWS how to do that!" or "but she's PERFECT at home!" that we fail to realize that for the dog, it's different, it's not the same thing at all. Just because we think they've learned something, they may not have generalized the command yet and know that it means the exact same thing no matter where they are or what they're doing or what is going on around them. If we're aware of that and adjust for it, it's much easier to avoid getting frustrated. So rather than thinking "why is she being like this?" think "what can I do to make this easier so she'll succeed?". Try to look at it from the dogs perspective.












These things are so important to keep in mind. Dogs learn more from success than they do from failure or corrections, and while that holds true for the life of the dog it is even more pronounced with puppies. So we have to set our dogs up to succeed, and that means always adjusting our expectations to the physical and mental abilities of the dog, both in terms of training and maturity, and not placing the dog in a situation that is beyond it's ability at that time.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

This would be so much easier if you guys would all just fly down here to the Gulf Coast and help me get through this until she grows up! LOL. I know I have my work cut out for me by starting her so late with the socialization, but I will try to remember all these things and not let my frustration get the better of me. I really appreciate the valuable insight!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Tina, I'm not a trainer, I'm just a pet owner like you - YOU CAN DO THIS! I've taken a lot of classes and had a lot of guidance from excellent trainers, read tons of great books, watched videos online and read links that people have posted, I hound the training and behavior threads for new ideas, and I've done plenty of trial and error too. Over time I've learned what training methods feel right to me and what don't, what I feel competent doing and what I don't. And I'm always learning, my general training philosophy continues to evolve over time because there's always more to learn. You're just starting out training your first dog, and you've got a great attitude, enthusiasm, and willingness to learn. Kaiya is a very lucky puppy!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I believe it was mentioned earlier it might help before taking her out on "training trips" to play ball with her and run off some extra pent up energy and take the edge off. Puppies have tons of pent up energy and if you get get rid of some of that it might help in a new situation. You would not want her exhausted but a good "blow off steam" session of fetch or something before working helps.


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

I, too, think Tihanna is doing a great job with her little girl!









My question, though, is how is training under distraction different from socializing a dog? What bigger distractions are there than other people, dogs, scenery, etc.? 

To me, socializing a puppy is letting him frolic with other puppies and doing all the cute, silly things they do, or pushing him around in a cart in a store, or keeping him on a leash and letting him act goofy while other people gush all over him.

As he gets older, if you choose to let him interact with other dogs, people, etc. (socialize), it involves a lot of training, and all of it under distraction. At the same time, not allowing him to interact (again, a personal choice), involves the same amount of training, under distraction.

Hopefully, I’m not going off-topic with this.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would say training under distraction is a form of socialization, but one that comes further down the line. Sort of a step 2.

Without first being socialized.. in other words exposed to different things in positive manners.. a dog is not likely to be able to work around distraction. Because for the dog to be able to tune out the distractions and focus on his work amidst distraction, he must first feel comfortable and safe in that environment. If he is stressed, overly stimulated, afraid, he isn't going to be able to work. Of course much of this is also dependent on the dog's inherent nerve strength and temperament. Some dogs don't need much socialization and they're fine, others will have problems even after tons of socialization. 

So the socialization has to come first, as does training in a calm, comfortable environment, than later on once both are accomplished they are brought together via training under distraction.


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## KG K9 (Dec 8, 2009)

When I got Deebo at 8 weeks I immediately (2-3 days after) started training him on basics like sit, outside, bathroom, and calling his name.

As he started going through his shots I started to socialize him around the neighborhood and gradually at people places like parks w/o a lot of other dogs since he doesn't have rabies shot yet.

Meanwhile, since Jan. I've has him in beginner classes and he is the youngest, but seems to be the best behaved. I mean teaching him things is almost effortless on my part.

We socialized during class AND train...as well as training with distractions. So we do all three, and it works.
This is my first GSD, but he is so smart. 

Good luck. I say do it all.

Maybe I am lucky, but Deebo has always just sat by my side when I stop walking and sit there just looking at things as if it doesn't bother him. He has yet to chase or go after something exciting.

One thing I've learned is that no matter what, you always have to be more exciting than the distraction, or have something (food/toy) that is better than what he/she is doing.

I can simply say "Deebo come touch" and he will come touch my fist....I gave him a pig ear and it was harder, but with a lil coaxing with a ball he came. He will also leave anything I put in front of him when I give the command. Even liver treats on the back of both paws. Seems amazing for a 13 week GSD...so train train train and socialize with the most random scenarios.

You say you go to PetSmart and spend hours...sign up for a 8 week class for $100 and you will learn so much, I did.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KG K9You say you go to PetSmart and spend hours...sign up for a 8 week class for $100 and you will learn so much, I did.


Not hours, usually 15-20 min, but I'm eliminating that all together. Just too much. And we already tried the Petsmart classes. I withdrew after I only one class. The trainer had 2 months experience in training and for an hour I watched her constantly refer to her manual and give terrible advice or not be able to answer basic questions at all. I currently have her working with a private trainer that is also a behavioralist and our first session went very well. I'm hoping that with her help and investing a lot of time gradually introducing new things, I will begin to see some improvent...


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## KG K9 (Dec 8, 2009)

Ouch, sorry to hear that. My trainer has a few years with PetSmart and 10 years total....AND brings his dogs to work as proof to what training does.

I can imagine your scenario and that just stinks.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks again to everyone on your great tips and advice!! I REALLY appreciate you all taking the time to try and help me with this, because as of right now, it seems I may be at a loss with my new trainer. I'm really bummed about it because she was SOOO great with Kaiya on our first lesson. But since Friday I have not been able to get in touch with her?? I've called several times with no answer, emailed (with return read receipts) but got no reply, and left a voicemail this morning with no return call... I'm thinking maybe she rethought her idea of providing "free" lessons and decided to back out. I would be more than happy to pay for her services, but cannot get in touch with her... :-( So right now, Kaiya and I will be going solo as their are few alternatives in our area... The only other trainer I have been able to find uses methods that I am definitely NOT comfortable with and I refuse to pay Petsmart for a trainer with 2 months experience training dogs. So I guess you guys will be seeing a lot of posts and questions from me as I try to get through this on my own. Thank you again and I look forward to continuing learning from and sharing this time with all you...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GrandJanI’m really going to go out on a limb here and say I never worried much about socialization – I worried more about training. I never planned to walk either one of them around Pet Smart or the doggie park, and I never really cared if they had play-dates with other dogs. I wanted well-behaved dogs at home, when they went to the vet’s, and when we had company. Obedience taught them to ignore other dogs on walks, and to me, that was more important than showing them how to play nice with them.
> 
> Sorry if I’m the oddball…


Problem with that is my life. And the life I want my dog to be a PART of and not left at home. I want to be able to take my dogs to family reunions, and not worry about the people or other family dogs. I want to be able to take my dogs of vacations to friends homes, and not worry about their dogs/kids/horses/cats. I want to be able to go on vacation and have my dogs HAPPY in hotels on elevators and crossing thru the bar area to get to the room. 

I don't want to have to worry about coming upon new and unexpected WHATEVERS because chances are my dogs will go with the flow, looking to me for guidance and how to react. Since my dogs have been out and about and exposed to so much at a fairly young age, hardly anything even startles them for more than the time it takes for them to react then immediately calm. 

Since my dogs are so well socialized and hence mentally stable and somewhat calm (or if not calm they are at least HAPPY excited, not fearful or freaked out excited) so they CAN listen, can learn, can obey.

Personally 'obedience' is easy for me and my dogs with no distractions and at my house/yard. Or if no one is near. But if my dog is a mess cause a STRANGE DOG IS COMING NEAR, how the heck can I expect her to obey any command? 

So I choose the harder path for working with my dogs. Socialization AND obedience (or agility stuff). I don't just teach all my obedience and tricks in my house/yard or in the middle of a large field. I teach them in the real world that I live in and want my dogs to be WITH me in. Surrounded by friends, families, other dogs and all the pecular new things that may involve. 

And it works for me (and my family reunion, dog show going, hotel loving, therapy dog certified GSDs!).

Just want to add, with tons of socialization I have dogs that easily ignore people and other dogs when asked to (most of the time?). Have you seen an agility trial? CRAZY packed with dogs and people that I walk my dog thru, walk them into the ring that only has a 24" plastic holey fencing around it, take off their leash, and then we run around the course at top speed for then next 30 seconds or so.

Don't tell me a well socialized dog can't give all the attention and focus needed, while ignoring other dogs and people hanging over the fencing to watch the run!


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

I understand what you’re saying – but isn’t this a “lifestyle” choice? I chose not to walk my dogs in dog parks or take them to supermarkets or nursing homes, or even to friends who have dogs of their own. My dogs play in a ¾+-acre fenced-in yard, ride everywhere in the car with me, walk up and down the street, and are well-behaved at home.

Isn’t socialization more important and/or necessary to the owner who wants to 1) compete, 2) mingle freely with other dogs, and 3) wander in and out of public facilities? Isn’t socialization an option rather than an essential?

I’m not against socialization at all – quite the opposite. I fully support the person who makes this choice. But I believe it is a choice. I think you can still be a responsible dog owner without making your dog the best friend of every Tom, ****, Harry or Spot.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I understand what you’re saying – but isn’t this a “lifestyle” choice? I chose not to walk my dogs in dog parks or take them to supermarkets or nursing homes, or even to friends who have dogs of their own. My dogs play in a ¾+-acre fenced-in yard, ride everywhere in the car with me, walk up and down the street, and are well-behaved at home.


Since life is full of unexpected things, I want to prepare my dogs BEFORE something comes up. If I have to go out of town for a week or so, it's easy for my dogs to go live at a friends with their dogs. I do NOT have to $$$ for a kennel. I do NOT have to worry about returning to sick dogs or stressed dogs because I had to kennel them.

If I got sick and had to have someone step in with my dogs, my DOGS could care less and would have a great time AS WOULD their caregivers.

If for some reason something happened and my dogs got loose (car accident?) or I couldn't attend to them (whizzing off in the ambulance where my dogs would NOT be able to go.....) I know that it would be easy for my dogs while I figured it out.

To me, it would be selfish to NOT prepare my dogs not only for everything I know happens in their day to day life, but also for things that may come up unexpectantly in the future. 

BTW, the other day I was out for a few hours at a car accident/rollover involving 3 people and their dog. The dog couldn't even be snuck on the ambulance (another family member was coming to meet them at the hospital) cause the dog was such a fearful mess they knew he wouldn't stay calm. The entire time the dog was on scene, held by a volunteer fireman, the dog was a fearful MESS. Really really really afraid of all the noise, equipement, stangers in strange gear.................. shaking fearful mess.

Did those people ever 'expect' to have a rollover accident and have to leave their dog with strangers? I don't think so. Would the poor dog have dealt with the situation much better if he'd been socialized? I KNOW he would have. 

THIS is the world I know I live in. Unexpected things happen when I am least prepared for them. To be able to do all I can ahead of time to make these times better for my dogs IS something I ABSOLUTELY do have control and feel it's my RESPONSIBILITY to do, for my dogs.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GrandJanI understand what you’re saying – but isn’t this a “lifestyle” choice? I chose not to walk my dogs in dog parks or take them to supermarkets or nursing homes, or even to friends who have dogs of their own. My dogs play in a ¾+-acre fenced-in yard, ride everywhere in the car with me, walk up and down the street, and are well-behaved at home.
> 
> Isn’t socialization more important and/or necessary to the owner who wants to 1) compete, 2) mingle freely with other dogs, and 3) wander in and out of public facilities? Isn’t socialization an option rather than an essential?
> 
> I’m not against socialization at all – quite the opposite. I fully support the person who makes this choice. But I believe it is a choice. I think you can still be a responsible dog owner without making your dog the best friend of every Tom, ****, Harry or Spot.


I think in your situation there still needs to be socialization...maybe in a different form. People coming to YOUR house for visits. Trips to the vet. Trips in the car. You still do not want a dog that acts inappropriately in THOSE situations.


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanks for all your comments - I do appreciate your points of view, and for not raking me over the coals for mine!

How about if I agree to different levels of socialization?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Maggie brings up an excellent point, I actually had a fireman mistakenly walk into our home several weeks back. Ava did not freak out but it got me to thinking, what would happen if I had an emergency at home......what if the fire department or emergency personell needed to get to me and Ava wouldnt let them? I had not introduced Ava to the fire department in all their scarry gear when she was a puppy, just didnt think of it. But I had tried to introduce her to a lot of things which helped in this situation I think. I remedied her ignorance of the fire department and while she is now almost 4 years old, she and I went out on a social call to the local fire department and she did really well, but that could have been a very bad scene at our house had she not had earlier exposure to so many different kinds of people.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'm not sure all the socialization in the world would really apply in some of those types of situations where the owner was incapacitated and emergency personnel needed to get to the person. There is no telling whether or not a dog's protective instincts would kick in, particularly without the owner able to provide guidance, and all the socialization in the world might not make a hoot of difference.

Our dogs are very open and social with welcome visitors that we allow into the house. If we're not there allowing the person in, and thus cuing the dog that we are ok with the visitor, a stranger that the dogs don't know coming into the house would get a very different reception from most of our dogs. They're social, but they're still GSDs, and IMO that is correct for a GSD. Though certainly in some cases we might wish they wouldn't, because unfortunately that also means that if I were incapacitated in my home, or in the car, things could get very interesting for emergency personnel trying to help me. Hopefully that never happens. But untimately I think in such extreme situations it comes down to the temperament of the dog and socialization can only do so much in that regard, and the most social dog in the world may not be if the owner is out of commission.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I dont know Chris, I hope I never have to find out. But I still think the added stress of something completely alien to her on top of me not well and/or unresponsive would escalate the situation. The best I can hope for is to expose her to these things so she wouldnt have an added fear of somebody scarry on top of her Mom being out of commission. Hopefully I will never have her tested in such a way.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I'm not sure all the socialization in the world would really apply in some of those types of situations where the owner was incapacitated and emergency personnel needed to get to the person. There is no telling whether or not a dog's protective instincts would kick in, particularly without the owner able to provide guidance, and all the socialization in the world might not make a hoot of difference.


While I agree that any dog would be upset when they were just involved in a vehicle roll over.............THAT I'm not going to duplicate and practice. Not even for my dogs...

I know for sure that a dog used to strange MEN entirely covered in huge fire gear and with helmets CAN be worked on by me. And if I was alert and talking to the guys and calm, and handing my dog off to them, I know both Bretta and Glory would want to get to and be with me, but they wouldn't have the additional overwhelming terror of all the strangers, huge vehicles, sirens added to their emotional stress. 

Have to add, even worse can be a rollover that ends up with a dog running loose from the broken windows/doors. One that is truly fearful and unsocialized would never be caught by rescue workers (or maybe even come back to the owner). And for me to come out of an accident fine, but have my dog killed on the road cause they wouldn't come back to me cause they were so afraid, would be a tragedy indeed.

Hey, if I knew my perfect life would always be perfect, and I could always be there for my dogs, then that would be something different. But I've seen too many unexpected things occur to people to want to gamble my dogs on that happening. When with just a bit of planning and organization I can better prepare them if something crops up.


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