# RH titles



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've been talking with Bill Dotson a lot recently--he is about 15 minutes from me and my agility classes are held on his property.

He is going to help me get started on training Lynx for HRD work, which is great. Had our first "lesson" on Friday and I've been sent away with homework--to work on teaching the indication behavior.

At any rate, one thing Bill really wants to see start up in the US is the RH titles. He hopes to hold an RH trial this fall and I plan on training toward it.

I did some research over the weekend and found a few resources. I was wondering if anyone had any experience in training for this title, had info about what each phase entailed, had a good description about what is tested, etc.

I did find a few things: 

PDF of the IRO/FCI testing standards (from the AWDF site)

IRO website: IRO - Internationale Rettungshunde Organisation: Home

Does anyone else have other resources to recommend? Info/descriptions?

Thanks!
Christine


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

RH obedience world championship--






RH trial -- obedience


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

RH Agility "dexterity" test


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

There is a huge debate going on between "real" SAR people and RH Sport people. RH is a sport, even though 
the SV is part of the IRO, it's still a sport. I know RH dogs have made life finds but they are not as accepted as
the "real" SAR dogs because they participate more in trials as if they'd go into the field.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ooh, I hope someone can chime in. Since the SDA titles never really got off the ground for SAR, I had been eyeing RH stuff.

Obviously it does not substitute real life training and work, but I think it looks very appealing...a good supplement!

ETA: I have a seminar with Bill in May. I will definitely be picking his brain gabout this, and please let me know if you get any more info that is not posted on here. Elsa is almost ready to title in agility, but if he gets that going I'll try and prepare for the RH agility and start tweaking things.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Let me see what I can do. I am on a German SAR Forum that has a RH section. I will collect as much as Info I can. 

We will be seeing each other at the Seminar again. Or are we going to meet up in March again?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Ooh, I hope someone can chime in. Since the SDA titles never really got off the ground for SAR, I had been eyeing RH stuff.
> 
> Obviously it does not substitute real life training and work, but I think it looks very appealing...a good supplement!
> 
> ETA: I have a seminar with Bill in May. I will definitely be picking his brain gabout this, and please let me know if you get any more info that is not posted on here. Elsa is almost ready to title in agility, but if he gets that going I'll try and prepare for the RH agility and start tweaking things.


Is he going up there or are you coming down here?

As far as the RH, Bill sees it as a way to get more consistent expectations and training and to give people who are interested in SAR training a path to follow, whether or not you ever "go active." I think he's also hoping that it will bring more of the modern European training methods to the SAR world in the US.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

My team certifies through IRO and (fingers crossed) I'll go to Bs. aires (Argentina) in May to certify Auka. Then I'll have more infoprmation to give.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Is he going up there or are you coming down here?
> 
> As far as the RH, Bill sees it as a way to get more consistent expectations and training and to give people who are interested in SAR training a path to follow, whether or not you ever "go active." I think he's also hoping that it will bring more of the modern European training methods to the SAR world in the US.


He's coming up here. 

I agree it's a nice path to follow...there really isn't much consistency in the level agility....OB, etc that is required in SAR and I think even that aspect would be very beneficial. 

I'm all for standards, though  That's what happens when you work in a lab. I think it's a hot topic amongst SAR people!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> He's coming up here.
> 
> I agree it's a nice path to follow...there really isn't much consistency in the level agility....OB, etc that is required in SAR and I think even that aspect would be very beneficial.
> 
> I'm all for standards, though  That's what happens when you work in a lab. I think it's a hot topic amongst SAR people!


Yes, the problem that we have in Germany with the RH title is that any school or club can offer to train "real SAR" dogs. It's somewhat like a new hype over there to have an SAR dog and you don't have committed people and that is exactly what you don't want. 

They put on the jacket, and the harness and think they are SAR. The RH title doesn't focus on the education of the handler as much as you'd have it here. 

Yes, I agree, the dogs need agility just as much as they need preydrive (including hunting drive, where I am from hunting drive is considered being part of the prey drive, without prey you won't have hunt.) and a standard would be cool but the United States doesn't even have a standard drivers license throughout the entire united states. So how do you expect them to get a standard for SAR dogs implemented?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I've been talking with Bill Dotson a lot recently--he is about 15 minutes from me and my agility classes are held on his property.
> 
> He is going to help me get started on training Lynx for HRD work, which is great. Had our first "lesson" on Friday and I've been sent away with homework--to work on teaching the indication behavior.
> 
> ...


 
how are you training the final trained response and what is it?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> There is a huge debate going on between "real" SAR people and RH Sport people. RH is a sport, even though
> the SV is part of the IRO, it's still a sport. I know RH dogs have made life finds but they are not as accepted as
> the "real" SAR dogs because they participate more in trials as if they'd go into the field.


 
Well, I have one and I do not do trials. He is doing disaster training and is quite good. It is like anything else,it depends on the dog. 
IPO, KNPV, Schutzhund etc are sport but I assure you those dogs with further training are very nice police patrol dogs


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, the problem that we have in Germany with the RH title is that any school or club can offer to train "real SAR" dogs. It's somewhat like a new hype over there to have an SAR dog and you don't have committed people and that is exactly what you don't want.
> 
> They put on the jacket, and the harness and think they are SAR. The RH title doesn't focus on the education of the handler as much as you'd have it here.
> 
> Yes, I agree, the dogs need agility just as much as they need preydrive (including hunting drive, where I am from hunting drive is considered being part of the prey drive, without prey you won't have hunt.) and a standard would be cool but the United States doesn't even have a standard drivers license throughout the entire united states. So how do you expect them to get a standard for SAR dogs implemented?


My dog was not trained in Germany. We DO have standards in the US. FEMA and NASAR

"hunt" is semantics. We police dog trainers refer to retrieve/hunt drive. The dog must have an insatiable desire to search for a kong,ball, etc. 
It is different than prey drive. A dog can have one without the other


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> how are you training the final trained response and what is it?


We're going to do a down. What I'm starting on is teaching Lynx to down in the presence of an empty paint can (the paint can is just a random, easily available, transportable, inexpensive target) for a ball reward. Once he is doing it reliably with no command, from some range and with my relative position not being relevant, then we'll add a 2nd identical empty can to the scenario--one can with a scent/source, one not The reward will only come when he downs in the presence of the scent, or in this case, in the presence of the can with the scent. 

I think the next stage, once the dog can reliably discriminate between 2 cans is to ask him to discriminate among 3 or 4 cans. Then, when he is doing that reliably, we move to putting the cans out of sight, then to removing the cans and just having the source scent. (I am speculating on these phases, a bit, based on our conversation.) 

I don't think I'll be introducing any sort of command at these stages--not until we move on quite a few more steps.

We had originally wanted to use a sit instead of a down, but the dog kept volunteering a down, so it seemed better to go with what felt natural to Lynx. The thing Bill doesn't like about this method is that the dog will probably end up looking at me instead of toward the source.

He made it clear that this is far from the only method--we talked about the pros and cons of some of the methods he liked to use, and this one was one that would work well with my dog and resources at hand.

Right now, all I'm doing is rewarding the down on the target, with me at a distance of 5-15 feet. In another week or so, I'll meet up with Bill again for him to comment, correct, and move me on to the next step.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I believe he worked with Alex and Danger (or maybe Cairo, who is now a K9 for the Vermont State Police doing border patrol/narcotics and has had live finds of lost teens in the mountains/snow) - and Danger has the RH1 - he is also certified IPWDA in several areas - I dont remember all teh initials off the top of my head....

I do know that Danger will come back to the handler, tug on a suede 2 handled tug and run back towards the subject...sorry - dont know more...

Lee


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

BlackthornGSD said:


> We're going to do a down. What I'm starting on is teaching Lynx to down in the presence of an empty paint can (the paint can is just a random, easily available, transportable, inexpensive target) for a ball reward. Once he is doing it reliably with no command, from some range and with my relative position not being relevant, then we'll add a 2nd identical empty can to the scenario--one can with a scent/source, one not The reward will only come when he downs in the presence of the scent, or in this case, in the presence of the can with the scent.
> .


Down is not real great with an HRD dog. Many places that we search has no good place to down. If the dog does not feel comfortable downing at the source,the dog will back up and down wherever he can and that may be far from point of origin which is a problem. If the dog has drive for the ball, this whole process is expedited by scenting the reward and starting the dog searching for that. You are imprinting on the odor. The way you are doing it is making the process far longer than it needs to be. 

The reason dogs look at the handler is that the handler is not rewarding AT SOURCE,but chunking the ball. The dog should only be rewarded AT source


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> Down is not real great with an HRD dog. Many places that we search has no good place to down. If the dog does not feel comfortable downing at the source,the dog will back up and down wherever he can and that may be far from point of origin which is a problem. If the dog has drive for the ball, this whole process is expedited by scenting the reward and starting the dog searching for that. You are imprinting on the odor. The way you are doing it is making the process far longer than it needs to be.
> 
> The reason dogs look at the handler is that the handler is not rewarding AT SOURCE,but chunking the ball. The dog should only be rewarded AT source


What do you mean by " rewarding at the source"--how would you reward "at the source" if he was sitting at the target?

In this case, you and Bill have different methods, I suppose. The SAR/HRD group that I am going to be affiliated with normally start by teaching dogs to search for a tennis ball that has been left in a box with some cadaver scent source to pick up the scent.

Bill argues that the search/scent is the easy part and teaching the desired indication is the hard part, so he wants to train the indication first. I guess I'll be doing it his way. 

I have no doubt that both methods will work, and with a drivey, confident dog like Lynx, it will go pretty fast. The time limiter will mostly have to do with my schedule and how much time I can put into it.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I have no idea why he is doing it that way. 

When one is using the scented reward, when the dog exhibits his final trained response, the handler walks to the source and flips the ball to the dog. As quickly as possible, the ball is removed from the scenario and the target odor only is put out so the dog does not imprint on the reward. Using the scented ball makes the imprinting swift.
If you are doing it from a distance, the dog will wind up looking at you instead of staring at source,which you do not want. You train the dog to stay at source, commit. You walk up and reward the dog AT source. He must learn that he will never received his reward until he stays at source while exhibting his final trained response. 
I only train aggressive alert dogs for HRD and narcotics. Bomb of course is passive sit. The aggressive alert is much easier for folks to keep solid.

I have seen a lot of problems with down dogs over the years at my seminars,certifications and actual deployments. A down final response does not work well in many scenarios such as rubble, collapsed structure and the like


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way, I was told to use the down too as an indication. So what would you suggest?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sit if a passive alert - I totally agree with Ladylaw - though I did not when I got started on this - a temmate has a down dog and she says she will NEVER train that again. Try to get a dog to down inside a car or a brush pile and you will understand....sitting can be dicey then to but at least the dog will kind of squat and look at you with pleading eyes if they can't actually sit. Honestly, when we started we only did passive alert, but I am considering active for the next HR dog (though sit works fine but it does require more maintenance) 

The RH stuff looks interesting but not of much value. We already have a structured training progression on our team that took us a few years to fine tune and it meets our needs better. There is no mention of finding the start of the track which is probably the most significant part of trailing, And you want the dog to stay ON the track if the victim is out there??? A good trailing dog will air scent when the hit the victims scent -- so I am not sure a solid operational trailing dog would pass the test. 

Our operational "PRE" test which is simply a formal check to see if the peices are falling in place is 20 acre air scent or 1/2 mile 2 hour trail so.

About the only times our dogs would be involved in a water rescue would be if someone was under ice and might be saved due to the mammalian diving reflex. In South Carolina, not a very big chance of that.

I really don't care for scented tennis balls. I have used scented toys but prefer white cotton washcloths. They hold scent better and don't have their own strong odor as do tennis balls. -- 

There are different methods to start a dog for sure. At any rate I know Bill Dotson is well known and respected.............I am interested in checking out Randy Hare before I get my next puppy. Fortunately a nearby police officer uses his methods for a narc dog and has the set up.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Word of wisdom

It is not uncommon for someone new to SAR who has a lot of structured sport training to come in and decide that we SAR folks don't really know what we are doing. Maybe that is true of your unit, maybe not......units do differ.

But I have learned more from Denver Holder, coonhunter turned SAR person in the 1980's (and his very first search is the story about the toddler in the NASAR MLPI class), than many folks who have an "idea" of how it should be but have not been out in the woods at 2am looking for someone....... His dogs would not even pass a CGC and he will tell you so.........but if you figure out how many lives he and his team have saved over the years you would be truly humbled.

-------

I am not sure where the huge debate about the RH is among SAR people? I never see it discussed on SAR forums and I know some individuals from all over the US and see them at seminars --- and never hear the topic come up.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Word of wisdom
> 
> It is not uncommon for someone new to SAR who has a lot of structured sport training to come in and decide that we SAR folks don't really know what we are doing. Maybe that is true of your unit, maybe not......units do differ.


Not sure where you're getting this from?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Perhaps an area to which I am over-sensitized. 

I have seen a number of sports people "try out" SAR and when you overhear them instructing / telling a teammate who has had multiple real world finds with their dog that they are "doing it all wrong", particularly when they have no real life experience with K9 search, you get frustrated.

I do think dog sport handlers bring some real world skillsets and often some very good knowledge on dog training, but it is a highly patterned and with predictable scenarios (as is the RH as I see it) and, while we can learn from it, we can learn an awful lot from the old coonhound and bloodhound folks too. 

And that, no, we really DO have standards in the US......not ONE national standard..but really, they are all very close to on another.....and most teams I know put their resources in the NIMS buckets and test using NASAR, NSDA, NAPWDA, IPWDA or LETS.....all national....


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Sit if a passive alert - I totally agree with Ladylaw - though I did not when I got started on this - a temmate has a down dog and she says she will NEVER train that again. Try to get a dog to down inside a car or a brush pile and you will understand....sitting can be dicey then to but at least the dog will kind of squat and look at you with pleading eyes if they can't actually sit. Honestly, when we started we only did passive alert, but I am considering active for the next HR dog (though sit works fine but it does require more maintenance)
> 
> The RH stuff looks interesting but not of much value. We already have a structured training progression on our team that took us a few years to fine tune and it meets our needs better. There is no mention of finding the start of the track which is probably the most significant part of trailing, And you want the dog to stay ON the track if the victim is out there??? A good trailing dog will air scent when the hit the victims scent -- so I am not sure a solid operational trailing dog would pass the test.
> 
> ...


 
We will disagree on the "value" of the RH. I have one and trust me, it has value. much more so than the in house garbage going on here

Air Kong Squeakers do NOT have an stronger odor than a rag. You are not understanding the concept of the imprinting process. A kong ball scented in Adipocere transitions nicely. I have just trained 8 in a row for the army not to mention the ones I have trained over the years. No problem

Randy Hare is doing nothing that the rest of us have not been doing for 30 years. He just marketed it. I have the boxes though as I like them. The problem with his method is that if you have a well bred field trial lab or golden with a genetically soft mouth, the dog will NOT tug. Seminar over. That is why the videos you see are mostly GSDs and Mals. If your dog is a tug dog,great. If not, you train my way using a scented kong ball or bumper


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Perhaps an area to which I am over-sensitized.
> 
> I have seen a number of sports people "try out" SAR and when you overhear them instructing / telling a teammate who has had multiple real world finds with their dog that they are "doing it all wrong", particularly when they have no real life experience with K9 search, you get frustrated.


Oh. In this case, I'm just doing what I'm told! (Or trying to!).

I don't think that the way I'm teaching the indication is his favorite method--just the method we're using for this dog in this set of circumstances. (I think he wanted me to use the box method, where the dog is rewarded by a toy that comes from the "right" box--but I gave him this look that said, "really Bill, I'm not gonna go build a bunch of boxes, I don't have the time or resources for that" and he said, "OK, let's do this....")

At any rate, I started the thread to learn more about RH training and trialing, to find out if there were any resources for it--not to discuss my training method--I'm not going to shop around on the internet and then go back to my coach and say "someone on the internet said...."

But I might go back and say, "hey, might it be worth it to put the extra effort in to teach a sit instead of a down?"


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Perhaps an area to which I am over-sensitized.
> 
> .
> 
> And that, no, we really DO have standards in the US......not ONE national standard..but really, they are all very close to on another.....and most teams I know put their resources in the NIMS buckets and test using NASAR, NSDA, NAPWDA, IPWDA or LETS.....all national....


 
The largest police service dog org in the US is NNDDA. the next is NAPWDA,USPCA, LETS.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I do think dog sport handlers bring some real world skillsets and often some very good knowledge on dog training, but it is a highly patterned and with predictable scenarios (as is the RH as I see it) and, while we can learn from it, we can learn an awful lot from the old coonhound and bloodhound folks too.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Oh. In this case, I'm just doing what I'm told! (Or trying to!).
> 
> I don't think that the way I'm teaching the indication is his favorite method--just the method we're using for this dog in this set of circumstances. (I think he wanted me to use the box method, where the dog is rewarded by a toy that comes from the "right" box--but I gave him this look that said, "really Bill, I'm not gonna go build a bunch of boxes, I don't have the time or resources for that" and he said, "OK, let's do this....")
> 
> ...


 
you dont have to build a box. Very simple. when the dog exhibits final response,you walk up,reach in and flip him the ball. folks been doing that at LAFB for 30 years. Has nothing to do with shopping around. There are actually some of us that have been doing this a very very long time and have learned how to expidite the training

Yes, down has too many issues


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

There is a lot of controversy out there about IRO, perhaps not in USA, but in Europe and Latinamerica it exist. The thing is that the IRO test is too... german. Just like SchH it is rigid and can become predictable. If you ask my humble opinion if a SAR dog needs to retrieve a dumbell... well, I don't think so, but on the other hand it has some good points and we have learnt a lot on the process of certify our dogs with them. For us, IRO is better than nothing.

In the countries of the region I live in, lets say Chile, Argentina, Perú, Brasil, Uruguay, to mention some I know in person, the teams who had take the path of certifying through IRO , who is an international accepted standard, are the ones who are professionalizing themselves. In countries like ours there is a lot of people from other countries selling smokes and mirrors and people willing to buy beads of color because they come from USA or Europe and some of them promote flashy training methods but at the end they "don't belive in certifications". IRO is something we can show to our authorities while we design and fight to be officially accepted, our own standards.

From what I know, you have some good certification test on the US. I know because I researched a lot of different countries when we were designing our own. I don't think you really need the RH considering what you have and I am not a fan of SAR seen as a sport for the reasons mentioned before.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I did leave out NNDDA and USPCA since neither one certifies civilians (except of course in the context you are doing with the overseas dogs)

I also defer to your (Ladylaw-Renee) far greater experience - and that is the problem with the internet-experts get stuck on the same ground as newbies and intermediates-. I will say I have decent real life wilderness SAR experience for about a decade and a few years of HRD but volunteers typically do not have the day in day out that LE does and we need to respect that. 

I am still struggling though to find what utility there is for the RH "title" that is not covered by a solid training progression with checkoffs along the way. And maybe the RH is just a basic level check off. It presents itself as a mission ready test. It is very basic. 

The air scent test is 500 square meters (or 0.12 acre). I thought they meant maybe 500 meters on each side but that would become 61 acres which you could not do in 10 minutes. so I think the small area is really what they do

For trailing, our PRE op test is .5 to 1 mile aged 1.5 to 4 hours but operational is 12 to 24 hours. In both case the start area is heavily contaminated and scenario based with LKP - then we encourage the dogs to do an outside trailing cert ASAP.

Our PRE op air scent test is 20 acres, then we have two operational level tests that are 80-120 acres daytime and 40 acres night test but the handler also has to develop a strategy, mark coverage on a map, etc etc.--then we also do the outside certs ASAP.

The HR dogs are not operational without NAPWDA, LETS, or IPWDA-Advanced certification. Period.

I do sincerely believe that for a wilderness air scent dog too much obedience (even motivational) can make them too handler dependant as I have seen it in real life. 

The towel comment was personal preference for a scent carrier. I have not scented up the "air kong" balls, I know regular tennis balls have a strong odor.

I actually had edited my last post before you replied that you should not train "to a test"......I really do think that is a major problem with some of the certification schemes. You train to search and the elements should fall together during a test if you know what you are doing and have the right dog....that is what I was trying to say. No test makes you qualified it is just a checkoff / independant verification along the way.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mistake - largerst search area RH tests is 7,5 acres, longest oldest trail is 0.5 mile x 3 hours but it does not specify mix of urban and other surface crossings and the area to pick up the start of the track (where contaminations is NOT specified) is oly 20 meters.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I did leave out NNDDA and USPCA since neither one certifies civilians (except of course in the context you are doing with the overseas dogs)
> 
> I actually had edited my last post before you replied that you should not train "to a test"......I really do think that is a major problem with some of the certification schemes. You train to search and the elements should fall together during a test if you know what you are doing and have the right dog....that is what I was trying to say. No test makes you qualified it is just a checkoff / independant verification along the way.


 
I have not used a tennis ball for many years. The fuzz damages the enamel on dog teeth. Air kong was created for that. 

Here is the thing. Some of these orgs want all this stupid pre test stuff. Silly. has not squat to do with the dog. So every org has BS
As far as the RH thing, the dog I just purchased has it all. 10 titles. The dog is awesome and that is why I purchased him. That gene pool is needed here in the US. I am continuing his training and I can tell you that all of that "sport" stuff as folks put it helps. Just like it does for police training. If this is an example of how they train for it, I am impressed. THe bottom line is that the dog can find someone in any venue and handling him is a dream. Trust me.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I do sincerely believe that for a wilderness air scent dog too much obedience (even motivational) can make them too handler dependant as I have seen it in real life.
> 
> ....I really do think that is a major problem with some of the certification schemes. You train to search and the elements should fall together during a test if you know what you are doing and have the right dog....that is what I was trying to say. No test makes you qualified it is just a checkoff / independant verification along the way.


 
there is no such thing as too much obedience. I have been using dogs to find crooks in buildings and area searches for many years. Obedience does not make a dog handler dependent. If that were true, we would have useless patrol dogs. The temperament of the dog and the way it was trained can however.

The problem is that Certifications,titles etc are necessary. But folks need to understand that they were never meant to be the total picture of the team's capability no more than my yearly firearm qual is an example of my total expertise with my sidearm.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

ladylaw203 said:


> there is no such thing as too much obedience. I have been using dogs to find crooks in buildings and area searches for many years. Obedience does not make a dog handler dependent. If that were true, we would have useless patrol dogs. The temperament of the dog and the way it was trained can however.


That is one of the things we "bought" when we just started, that the obedience is bad for SAR dogs. That and to spend too much time building drives instead of selecting better genetics. Now we know better.

You would be surprised by how much autonomy and directionality you need for IRO. You can't follow your dog until he does the first find and he has to have to ability to work on its own, yet to go where the handler needs him to go.

For me, this is where the art of SAR training (and handling) lies. That fine balance between autonomy and obedience, the ability to let the dog do his job and trust him, yet to make sure every inch has been covered with efficiency.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Catu said:


> That is one of the things we "bought" when we just started, that the obedience is bad for SAR dogs. That and to spend too much time building drives instead of selecting better genetics. Now we know better.
> 
> You would be surprised by how much autonomy and directionality you need for IRO. You can't follow your dog until he does the first find and he has to have to ability to work on its own, yet to go where the handler needs him to go.
> 
> For me, this is where the art of SAR training (and handling) lies. That fine balance between autonomy and obedience, the ability to let the dog do his job and trust him, yet to make sure every inch has been covered with efficiency.


 
Put very well. For example, I have two hunt test trained retrievers. Turn key directions by whistle,voice and hand signals. That transistions to Cadaver work. I stand and direct the dog- all off leash and under total control from a great distance. I do the same training on my explosive detector dogs..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Very well stated Catu....I definitely agree that if it ain't there you can't put it there. I still am not sold on excessive obedience and don't see the value in some of the tests - and I do see the value in our preoperational testing because it allows us to use a structured format to document where additional work is needed.

...and it may be shades of gray because I have seen dependant dogs who would NOT range. And perhaps that is more a temperament issue than an obedience one. So maybe it is a good dog won't be crushed by obedience. I know my dog is very handler soft (as are many czech dogs) but he is not shut down by a correction or some negative/scary event. 

We DO regularly find missing people that the police bloodhounds and patrol dogs don't find and our team has a good find rate in the real world. I believe that is because of the nature of our training for old stuff, at night, etc...... not jump and run but people who have been out in the woods, the LKP is a mess because half the neighborhood came out in ATVs and did not call the police until it got dark, then the police run, then we run it. I think our value is that our focus IS different because the nature of what we do is something police don't train for (because the patrol dogs get daily work but they may go only once or twice a year for a missing person - so that is not their training focus)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

About the obedience part. 

It's true. You can't have enough obedience. If you do it right your dog won't be dependent on you. In fact, they learn how to work independently through obedience. If I don't have obedience and can't trust my dog... that is a disaster waiting to happen. 

It's one of the reasons why we have two obedience trainers now. Our situation is somewhat interesting...but we have support and backup from the higher-ups and were told not to give up on the team yet and that they need good dogs and handlers. I think its one of the reasons why so many rules have been broken and bended in order to get mine into the team and why I am allowed to train three dogs while the rule is usually one dog per handler...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> So maybe it is a good dog won't be crushed by obedience


I think that's part of the reason OB is so important of the SHAPING and INSPIRATIONAL type.

I'm doing OB exclusively with a SchH person now because as she put it that the type of OB you are getting with those "fix the problem" trainers and the OB training clubs is to get a dog to behave that isn't...

While I know SchH is bit of a debate in SchH...I really think that it teaches the dog a fair amount of independence. Think about a dog running the blinds....hardly a dog glued at it's handler's side!

Great, flashy, precise OB isn't about crushing a dog's willingness to work and work on it's own...it's about channeling drive and becoming in tune with each other.

I can definitely see how some training methods and some of the stifling ideals can kind of put an unwanted damper on the dog. But I don't think so if done well.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I think that's part of the reason OB is so important of the SHAPING and INSPIRATIONAL type.
> 
> I'm doing OB exclusively with a SchH person now because as she put it that the type of OB you are getting with those "fix the problem" trainers and the OB training clubs is to get a dog to behave that isn't...
> 
> ...


Agreed. And that is exactly what Chris said too at our joint training.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am still a bit skeptical. I know too many other folks I really respect with years of experience started to lighten up on the obedience (motivational only) and have experienced more independant free ranging dogs when they pull back a little.

Of course given the increase in searches in semi-urban areas it may be something to consider. In the woods we have had dogs hit scent on one ridge when the victim was a half mile away and have them make a beeline to them and then do multiple refinds.... and having them range out of sight is not uncommon when scanning for scent. No brainer for disaster dogs..you would have to have that control.

Don't get me wrong, I expect sit, down, stay, walk loosely, drop on recall, load by another, unload by another, stop and wait, and directionals ..... but certainly with no precision....but that is just stuff you have to do to work a dog offlead safely.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Very well stated Catu....I definitely agree that if it ain't there you can't put it there. I still am not sold on excessive obedience and don't see the value in some of the tests - and I do see the value in our preoperational testing because it allows us to use a structured format to document where additional work is needed.
> 
> ...and it may be shades of gray because I have seen dependant dogs who would NOT range. And perhaps that is more a temperament issue than an obedience one. So maybe it is a good dog won't be crushed by obedience. I know my dog is very handler soft (as are many czech dogs) but he is not shut down by a correction or some negative/scary event.
> 
> We DO regularly find missing people that the police bloodhounds and patrol dogs don't find and our team has a good find rate in the real world. I believe that is because of the nature of our training for old stuff, at night, etc...... not jump and run but people who have been out in the woods, the LKP is a mess because half the neighborhood came out in ATVs and did not call the police until it got dark, then the police run, then we run it. I think our value is that our focus IS different because the nature of what we do is something police don't train for (because the patrol dogs get daily work but they may go only once or twice a year for a missing person - so that is not their training focus)


 
That may be how police train in YOUR area,but it is NOT the norm. 

I dont find Czech dogs to be handler soft at all. I have six,half of whom are titled. Over the top drive and a hard head. Depends on the bloodline

If a dog is handler dependent,the dog is soft and /or been trained with compulsion. Many of us have trained dogs offleash for many years with directionals and pushbutton obedience. Motivational training. Again, if that were true our patrol dogs would not range out in a dark building looking for a crook or a crook out in the woods that bailed after a traffic stop.the dogs MUST have total control for this or they are a liability


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> About the obedience part.
> 
> It's true. You can't have enough obedience. If you do it right your dog won't be dependent on you. In fact, they learn how to work independently through obedience. If I don't have obedience and can't trust my dog... that is a disaster waiting to happen.
> ...


 
absolutely!!!!!!!!!! Dogs must be rock solid offleash. I have been searching storm debris for example and had to drop my dog before he got into something that looked very unstable. Solid down,recall, hand signals etc. A must for any dog doing anything offleash


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Then maybe my terminology is off. The dog is hard as nails when it comes to physical pain/injury (as in when he knocked out 4 teeth, dropped the ball, and wanted me to throw it again) and will bounce back from a correction but is very sensitive to my tone of voice my body language and very much wants to please...much moreso than my West German Female who could give a rats ass what I think. Sometimes a description trumps words. Could be the DDR in the top line. Who knows. 

I am not arguing against a dog having solid obedience to work offlead. I fail to understand the requirement or find the utility for "precision" obedience and things like the retrive test and holding the dumbell until outed. It seems like a waste of time to me. ..... 

And the number one failure issue for trailing tests is finding the start. How can any test be of value if it basically seems to start the dog on an uncontaminated scent pad? Of what utility is this for Widlerness search? Most searches I have ever been on has had a seriously contaminated LKP and that is the challenge the dog must work through. 

Same thing with these very small area problems. Shows the elements are there and maybe that is the only intent. I think that is more geared towards disaster dogs than wilderness.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I am not arguing against a dog having solid obedience to work offlead. I fail to understand the requirement or find the utility for "precision" obedience and things like the retrive test and holding the dumbell until outed. It seems like a waste of time to me. .....
> 
> And the number one failure issue for trailing tests is finding the start. How can any test be of value if it basically seems to start the dog on an uncontaminated scent pad? Of what utility is this for Widlerness search? Most searches I have ever been on has had a seriously contaminated LKP and that is the challenge the dog must work through.
> 
> .


number one with whom? Its a test. period. you are reading too much into it.
the thing is,many tests and certifications have silly stuff. Look at all the hoops for NASAR for example. I can pick any title,certification apart. It is what it is. At the end of the day, the obedience portion is hurting nothing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Finding the start is the reason most people fail the actual NASAR trailing test

Having to find the start of the trail with a sketchy LKP and a highly contaminated area with contmination fresher than the victim's track is also very real world


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

For the OP

Just curious. You live in Virginia - one of the more highly established SAR states
Because SC does not have statewide coordination, it is one model we looked at and have been trying to get agreement on between teams to push up the chain.

It allows autonomy within teams, but sets performance standards that must be met.

Have you looked at these? I do believe they are more typical for Wilderness dogs.
vasarco.org


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> For the OP
> 
> Just curious. You live in Virginia - one of the more highly established SAR states
> Because SC does not have statewide coordination, it is one model we looked at and have been trying to get agreement on between teams to push up the chain.
> ...


Looked at them for what?

I am going to be training HRD, not wilderness, at this time, at least.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So what is the difference between Wilderness Cadaver and HRD?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> So what is the difference between Wilderness Cadaver and HRD?


I'm sorry, I wasn't very specific. I thought she was talking about wilderness live find. I'll be doing cadaver--wilderness and otherwise. Well, as guided by my team and what they want me to to do.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It was in regards to wilderness live find- the RH seems more targeted to disaster than Wilderness and I have ZERO disaster experience but a good bit of Wilderness LIve Find as that is what we do. To me disaster is such a specialty, that it can stay with the experts in that field. How many disaster dogs to you really need? 

I do not believe RH covers cadaver. I asked because of the question about the RH title. I guess it could be good for a breeder in lieu of other working titles since it is FCI. I know of no distinction between wilderness and disaster cadaver other than the NIMS Resource Typing. My dog has several water finds. They were all drowning victims. He has never been on a surboard or pulled a boat. He has been pulled into a boat though  

I have certified cadaver both NAPWDA and IPWDA-Basic&Advanced and plan to go through LETS when I can find a seminar I can get to - but I am "current" on my certs.

No plans to do NASAR and all the NASAR "hoops" as my NAPWDA records show the boat option was used and, to be honest, I would rather test under a police master trainer than one of the NASAR folks who got grandfathered in, particularly since most of the experienced K9 folks left NASAR for NSDA. I understand LETS requires a scratch alert on the boat and that is not what we do so I will just do land HRD through them when the opportunity presents itself.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

There is quite a bit of human remains work being done in British Columbia.
The person has not joined modern times so is not online, however if someone wants to call her I can give the phone number. Very experienced person, several dogs SAR -- 
I guess you will have to email my privately
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Finding the start is the reason most people fail the actual NASAR trailing test
> 
> Having to find the start of the trail with a sketchy LKP and a highly contaminated area with contmination fresher than the victim's track is also very real world


 
We cops are very well aware of that. We have been doing that for far longer. I was wondering where your stats came from


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> It was in regards to wilderness live find- the RH seems more targeted to disaster than Wilderness and I have ZERO disaster experience but a good bit of Wilderness LIve Find as that is what we do. To me disaster is such a specialty, that it can stay with the experts in that field. How many disaster dogs to you really need?
> 
> I do not believe RH covers cadaver. I asked because of the question about the RH title. I guess it could be good for a breeder in lieu of other working titles since it is FCI. I know of no distinction between wilderness and disaster cadaver other than the NIMS Resource Typing.
> 
> ...


The RH is far more that a title for breeding and covers more than disaster. I have one. Real world. I can find fault with any cert believe me.I wrote the standards for the NNDDA. There are faults in them all because of what they are. I am not giving any defense attorneys ammo however in this venue. It is always fascinating though to hear folks down something they do not have and have limited knowledge of 

As far as how many disaster dogs do we need? Live where I do and survive two Cat 4 hurricanes, 4 Cat 1s and handle oversease contracts such as Haiti. We need them. FEMA is only domestic with exceptions. And,for those of us who experience hurricanes,tornadoes etc. you cannot have too many. The question is how many cadaver dogs do we need?? Not as many as we have. Or at least, we need a higher percentage of fully operational teams.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> So what is the difference between Wilderness Cadaver and HRD?


 
Nothing. HRD is just a new term. Human Remains Detection. A fully operational HRD dog finds remains wherever. There is a distinction between land and water recovery. Police organizations make no distinction with regard to "wilderness". some civilian orgs. do.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> The RH is far more that a title for breeding and covers more than disaster. I have one. Real world. I can find fault with any cert believe me.I wrote the standards for the NNDDA. There are faults in them all because of what they are. I am not giving any defense attorneys ammo however in this venue. It is always fascinating though to hear folks down something they do not have and have limited knowledge of
> 
> As far as how many disaster dogs do we need? Live where I do and survive two Cat 4 hurricanes, 4 Cat 1s and handle oversease contracts such as Haiti. We need them. FEMA is only domestic with exceptions. And,for those of us who experience hurricanes,tornadoes etc. you cannot have too many. The question is how many cadaver dogs do we need?? Not as many as we have. Or at least, we need a higher percentage of fully operational teams.


I don't have any doubt that the RH title is more than people think it is. The thing is that many SAR organizations look down on the RH dogs because many of them are sporting dogs. However, a well trained RH dog should be more than capable to go on any search and I wouldn't be surprised if the RH dog would actually do better than some of the Federation dogs.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

ladylaw203 said:


> We cops are very well aware of that. We have been doing that for far longer.


LOL..........did you ever want to SLAP one of your partners because they couldn't stop walking around the car that the suspects ran from. Or just had to keep going back and leaning into it or checking it?

GRRRRRRRR


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

ladylaw203 said:


> As far as how many disaster dogs do we need? Live where I do and survive two Cat 4 hurricanes, 4 Cat 1s and handle oversease contracts such as Haiti. We need them. FEMA is only domestic with exceptions. And,for those of us who experience hurricanes,tornadoes etc. you cannot have too many. The question is how many cadaver dogs do we need?? Not as many as we have. Or at least, we need a higher percentage of fully operational teams.


Or where I do live. This is the only place where the 7,0 richter we had a few days ago is called "medium intensity"


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't have any doubt that the RH title is more than people think it is. The thing is that many SAR organizations look down on the RH dogs because many of them are sporting dogs. However, a well trained RH dog should be more than capable to go on any search and I wouldn't be surprised if the RH dog would actually do better than some of the Federation dogs.


Yep. You will find that folks with limited experience diss what they do not understand or are incapable of doing. Just the nature of the biz. hahahaha

I am extrememly impressed with the trainer of this dog that I just bought. They were not kidding,he is like handling a Ferrari and he has an excellent nose and crazy ball drive. If this is an example of the RH, I am impressed. 

Here is the thing. We have a severe problem in this country with cadaver dogs. Most of the handlers are civilians. Many have improper training aids, dogs with lousy drive, nervy etc. I have seen tons of them at my seminars and at my certifications when NNDDA still certified civilians. Many do not understand that passing any certiification is not it. It is just a MINIMUM set of standards. I have had tons come to my seminars and their dogs cannot successfully work the scenarios. Most of the problems are caused by their training aids, or lack of same. Dogs fringing, not recognizing the various types etc etc. Live find dogs who are nervy, lousy drive etc. No oversight with civilians. As a cop, my dogs HAVE to be certified every year. There is no requirement for civilians to certify so many do not. So, there are a lot more problems that worrying about some poor titled sport doggie......hahahaha


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I can't get off work for weeks to field a FEMA dog, I am 55 and won't be climbing all over rubble. Dead people don't move real quick though they do wind up in some pretty nasty locations.

I can work a cadaver dog just fine. During live finds I now man the computers and radios at IC and help with planning. There *is* a need here for cadaver dogs; that is why we started doing it in the first place and are doing everything we can to do it right as most of those calls are for older stuff. (shallow graves/disarticulated)

We kept getting calls for them and had to bring in outside resources. I think the last call we had for disaster dogs was in NC in 1999 for Hurricane Floyd. We did not respond to Katrina because we felt that was way outside of our training. There is nobody on our team who wants to do or can free themselves up for disaster but if they want to we can direct them to the state SUSAR team who does a lot of training to sit on their hands. In the meanwhile we go on real searches and find real people  

No more arguing for me about RH. I have not seen a dog trained in RH. I am sure Renee's new dog is awesome. Renee has a lot of experience. The RH test does not meet our criteria for operational status. End of story.

For one thing, all of our live find dogs work with a scent article (they also have to be able to work without one). We have done a few hundred searches as a team, our mentoring team, NCSARDA, has done a few thousand. We have rarely had an issue securing (we secure our own) a good scent article. It works. I know it works and very well.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

CassandGunnar said:


> LOL..........did you ever want to SLAP one of your partners because they couldn't stop walking around the car that the suspects ran from. Or just had to keep going back and leaning into it or checking it?
> 
> GRRRRRRRR


 
Oh yes. or the tons of cops who wandered all over hunting the guy then finally decided to call me. Peachy guys. Gotten a lot better around here over the years. They set up a perimeter now and call K9.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Catu said:


> Or where I do live. This is the only place where the 7,0 richter we had a few days ago is called "medium intensity"


 
wow medium. I have some team members who have been there
We are praying for continuing reprieve from hurricanes here. So very tired of them.........


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> Oh yes. or the tons of cops who wandered all over hunting the guy then finally decided to call me. Peachy guys. Gotten a lot better around here over the years. They set up a perimeter now and call K9.


I....thought all the police in your area knew better......


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My apolgies for the sarcasm. I am not dissing LE. I am just frustrated and need to just forget this discussion..We have some very good LE K9 handlers and sherrif's department in our area and we work very well with them. They would not continue to call us and train with us if we did not do a good job for them. 

We have been other areas in the state where there is still a real learning curve on search management......so we do what we can there and try to link them up with the sherriffs departments who have it more together. We keep getting called back to those areas too.....


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I....thought all the police in your area knew better......


 
the did not 25 years ago when I started


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> For one thing, all of our live find dogs work with a scent article (they also have to be able to work without one). We have done a few hundred searches as a team, our mentoring team, NCSARDA, has done a few thousand. We have rarely had an issue securing (we secure our own) a good scent article. It works. I know it works and very well.


 
few thousand. wow. sounds like those folks need some maps.....:laugh:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

NCSARDA was established in 1984 averaging about 70 searches a year in their area and providing support outside of their area. Lot of hikers in that area. We only average about 30 a year and were established in 2003 but started really getting the calls steadily about 2006.


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