# Silver German Shepherds.



## mehpenn

How do we feel about "silver" and black GSDs? I've focused my breeding program on dogs with rich color and have steered clear of any dog I feel doesn't have the correct "look" even if they impress me with their working lineage. 

I was contacted regarding a dog for sale. I looked at her bloodline and really liked what I saw... but she's "silver" and black. 

She's really got the training and working ability I've been looking for, and that's very important to me, but I don't feel right about adding her to my breeding program because of her color. 

I know lots of people like lots of different colors of dogs. I've seen liver shepherds, blue shepherds, of course the white and silver dogs... and I've never paid them any mind. I know what I like, what's "standard" acceptable and that's what I've focused on... but this girl is really pulling at me.


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## EmeryGSD

Why don't you like her color?


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## mehpenn

She's mostly black, and it's not that I don't "like" her color, it's just that it seems kind of faded and washed out to me because I am used to rich red and black dogs.

When I look at a dog, the first and most important thing I review is their lineage, their working ability, and the training they've had, because we live on a farm and it's pointless to bring a dog here if it can't or won't work. But color/coat is the second thing I look at. I don't like dogs that look washed out and have bad color. I've always known what I like and have pretty much stuck to it.


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## Freestep

Reputable breeders don't select for "silver", but if a dog is outstanding in every other way, I don't think you should throw the baby out with the bathwater... color is one of the least important things in my book, though I too prefer rich, saturated pigment. IMO, a "silver" dog could have a place in a breeding program as long as he/she is bred to partners with rich pigment.


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## DJ BEN

Freestep is right on, and if you are worried about customers being interested in any black and silver dogs that might come out of breeding that dog your asking about, well as for me, if it continues to produce dogs with great working abilities and the parents are both cleared of hip issues, than I would buy one from you.


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## JakodaCD OA

I would rather have an ugly dog with brains/temperament/soundness/workability than a pretty dog that had nothing between the ears

(Not saying the silver's are ugly, just a generalization)


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## Shaolin

IMHO, if I were a breeder, the last thing I would care about is color. If you like her lines and she would contribute to what you are doing, then why not? 

Taste the GSD rainbow.  Capt. Stephanitz said himself that there are no bad colors...so the dog might surprise you.

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## Merciel

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would rather have an ugly dog with brains/temperament/soundness/workability than a pretty dog that had nothing between the ears


+1 to that.

Personally, I like _all_ the colors of GSD. I love the rich red-and-black showlines with their leonine ruffs. But I love silver-and-black dogs too; I think there's something elegant about their silvery coloring.

And yes, far far far more important to me than a dog's color is what he or she can _do_.


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## mehpenn

She's at a sheep farm not too far from me, so I might just have to drive out there and take a personal look at her. If she works like they say she does, then I might reconsider. 
And again, it's not that she's an "ugly" dog, she's very pretty, heavily blanketed, mostly black, her coat looks good in the pictures. She's not an overly large dog, looks to have good bone structure and her OFA is good. Her color is the only thing holding me back, but I guess that's just my years of personal understanding of the standrard and striving to only to produce acceptable dogs. I my mind when I hear "pale, washed out colors are a serious fault".. that includes silver dogs, because that's "pale"... but that's probably not the most accurate way of thinking?


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## mandiah89

Shaolin said:


> IMHO, if I were a breeder, the last thing I would care about is color. If you like her lines and she would contribute to what you are doing, then why not?
> 
> *Taste the GSD rainbow. * Capt. Stephanitz said himself that there are no bad colors...so the dog might surprise you.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:rofl: thats great!

And Im with everyone else, if the dog has the linage, drive, temperament, health certs.,training that you like/need/want then go for it, color should be the least of your worries


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## Merciel

mehpenn said:


> And again, it's not that she's an "ugly" dog, she's very pretty, heavily blanketed, mostly black, her coat looks good in the pictures. She's not an overly large dog, looks to have good bone structure and her OFA is good. Her color is the only thing holding me back, but I guess that's just my years of personal understanding of the standrard and striving to only to produce acceptable dogs. I my mind when I hear "pale, washed out colors are a serious fault".. that includes silver dogs, because that's "pale"... but that's probably not the most accurate way of thinking?


I'm not a breeder and I know nothing about breeding, so take this with a major grain of salt, but IF silver is indeed a major fault (and I know so little about conformation that I don't even know that!), and IF it's possible to "correct" color by carefully choosing the litter's sire, and IF you can do that while also preserving the dam's exceptional working abilities (assuming for the sake of argument that her abilities are indeed so exceptional that they warrant preservation for the sake of the breed), then... that seems like a pretty good deal to me.

I guess this is my personal bias speaking, but as an owner who prioritizes performance above all, I like to see breeders working to nurture the instincts and abilities of the breed. A really great herding dog is an exceptional combination of brains, strength, good judgment, impulse control, and decisive action. To my thinking, that's a special dog. IF you truly have a dog with those traits out there, that's something worth keeping.


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## Shaolin

mehpenn said:


> She's at a sheep farm not too far from me, so I might just have to drive out there and take a personal look at her. If she works like they say she does, then I might reconsider.
> And again, it's not that she's an "ugly" dog, she's very pretty, heavily blanketed, mostly black, her coat looks good in the pictures. She's not an overly large dog, looks to have good bone structure and her OFA is good. Her color is the only thing holding me back, but I guess that's just my years of personal understanding of the standrard and striving to only to produce acceptable dogs. I my mind when I hear "pale, washed out colors are a serious fault".. that includes silver dogs, because that's "pale"... but that's probably not the most accurate way of thinking?


If you are planning on doing conformation, then yes...you need to be hyper vigilant that your B&T is the perfect shade with no paleness or washed out color and symmetrical saddle, but it seems like you are looking for a dog to do a job, so why not have an off colored rock star who's working genetics will bring more to the table than any perfectly colored dog available to you at the moment. 

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## Freestep

mehpenn said:


> I my mind when I hear "pale, washed out colors are a serious fault".. that includes silver dogs, because that's "pale"... but that's probably not the most accurate way of thinking?


I'm not sure it is a "serious" fault, but it is a fault. But all dogs have faults, none are perfect, and if color is the worst thing you can say about a particular dog, that's probably a good dog. 

Just curious, what is the pedigree?


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## carmspack

"I've focused my breeding program on dogs with rich color and have steered clear of any dog I feel doesn't have the correct "look" even if they impress me with their working lineage. " 

its a working breed ! substance over cosmetics.

"you need to be hyper vigilant that your B&T is the perfect shade with no paleness or washed out color and symmetrical saddle,"

not if you look at the SV conformation results


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## Loneforce

*Breed Standard*

Information about the German Shepherd Dog and German Shepherd Puppies including the German Shepherd Breed Standard Maybe this will help. I actually like black and silver GSD's My first shepherd was blk/tan "washed out and looked silver. One of the best dogs I ever had.


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## mehpenn

Freestep said:


> I'm not sure it is a "serious" fault, but it is a fault. But all dogs have faults, none are perfect, and if color is the worst thing you can say about a particular dog, that's probably a good dog.
> 
> Just curious, what is the pedigree?


She's got Bravo's Do or Die/Smokin Joe Nordlicht... which I've found to be great herding lines, with lots of level head and stamina. 
I've had a dog previously with this line and he was one of the best I've ever had here on the farm.


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## carmspack

CH (US) Bravo's Do Or Die V Nordlicht

CH Smokin' Joe of Nordlicht

any chance she is a SABLE


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## mehpenn

carmspack said:


> CH (US) Bravo's Do Or Die V Nordlicht
> 
> CH Smokin' Joe of Nordlicht
> 
> any chance she is a SABLE



No, the picture they sent, she's definitely a heavy blanketed silver. 
The other dog I had from this line was a heavy blanketed black/tan. She resembles him, a LOT, except the pigment of her "color."


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## JakodaCD OA

I think she's gorgeous


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## UnlimitedGSD

what 'lines' are you breeding? (curious as the dog in your avatar looks like a working line dog and the dog in question is an American Showline dog)


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## mehpenn

The dog in question is a working dog as well. She's currently working on a sheep/goat farm here in NC. 
The dog in my avatar is a JGenehof dog, out of vom Kraftwerk and Talka Marta lines. 
I also have a female out of Baysden/von der Lutter lines, a male out of vom Haus Grossenhung and a male out of Butler/Baysden lines from a local farm.


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## UnlimitedGSD

so you're planning to breed an Am line show dog with your working line dogs?


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## mehpenn

I breed working dogs to working dogs. All of my dogs work on my farm, came from dogs that work, and have produced dogs that work. If the dog can't or won't herd, then I have no need for it here on my farm, regardless of what's on their pedigree.


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## UnlimitedGSD

I'm curious as to what your breeding goals are as this dog doesn't have any working dogs in its pedigree (being an Am showline dog)? I realize you are looking at the current ability of the dog itself, but the pedigree has to come into play as the dog could be a fluke and not representative of it's genetics.

Your other dogs have working dogs for generations so their ability is obviously not a fluke so I'm wondering why a breeder would consider a dog that doesn't have the genetics to back it up for a program of 'working'.

Wouldn't herding lines (HGH) be a better option?


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## mehpenn

I see where you're coming from and it's a reasonable question. I know her sire and dam are on the farm, and I understand they both work, from what I was told. The lady who shared this dog's information with me owns a pup from her litter. She's doing Schutzhund (or IPO) with him. This is her first time training in such, but she seems happy with the way things are progressing and how her dog is responding to the training. But she also knows I'm not interested in an IPO trained dog, and that my dogs are used to herd and protect my livestock so I don't think she would have shared the information with me if she didn't think it would be a good fit, especially since I wasn't actively looking for another dog. 

I guess the best thing for me to do is take the time to go out Saturday and take a good look at her, watch her in action and meet her parents and handlers and go from there.


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## carmspack

so Bravo Do or Die , male, sable, has got to be the sire , as he is a son of Smokin Joe.

But his dam is what I imagine the colour that you are trying to describe CH (INT) Ariana's Dragon Lady of Nordlicht

that is not colour paling -- TAN can be anywhere from mahogany, brown, golden , to buck or sand .

the Bravo Do or Die did also produce this colour Zima OF Sater Nordlicht

if you are going out to see her why not get some video of her working ?


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## cliffson1

There are still some American lines that can work and should be in gene pool with others of the breed....a good place to find them is on working farms.


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## mehpenn

carmspack said:


> so Bravo Do or Die , male, sable, has got to be the sire , as he is a son of Smokin Joe.
> 
> But his dam is what I imagine the colour that you are trying to describe CH (INT) Ariana's Dragon Lady of Nordlicht
> 
> that is not colour paling -- TAN can be anywhere from mahogany, brown, golden , to buck or sand .
> 
> the Bravo Do or Die did also produce this colour Zima OF Sater Nordlicht
> 
> if you are going out to see her why not get some video of her working ?


This is not her, but is very much what she looks like from the pictures they sent (found this on google, won't post her pic because she's not mine and I don't have permission. I hope the link works.) 
Google Image Result for http://images03.olx.com/ui/2/89/04/21798504_4.jpg


I have called them and we're going to drive out Saturday and take a look at her. DH thinks for what they're asking, if she's anything like they claim, we'd be stupid to pass her up. So we'll see........


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## mehpenn

And another thing that concerns me is they only raise sheep and goats. But my farm also has chickens. We took a dog on trial a couple years ago from a goat farm and he ended up killing several of my hens. So, how she reacts to fowl is going to be a determining factor as well. 
Before we make a full decision, we'd take her on a trial for a couple weeks, see how she fits in, if she's motivated away from their farm and how she handles the chickens mingling with the goats and horses.


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## Freestep

mehpenn said:


> And another thing that concerns me is they only raise sheep and goats. But my farm also has chickens. We took a dog on trial a couple years ago from a goat farm and he ended up killing several of my hens. So, how she reacts to fowl is going to be a determining factor as well.
> Before we make a full decision, we'd take her on a trial for a couple weeks, see how she fits in, if she's motivated away from their farm and how she handles the chickens mingling with the goats and horses.


Chicken-proofing requires training. Most dogs with drive WILL kill chickens given the chance, as chickens are the ultimate dog toy--they make quick, prey-like movements, they are feathery, they make cool sounds, they run away, they are soft on the outside and crunchy on the inside, and they're filled with food!  Any dog with prey drive would be crazy NOT to chase a chicken! I wouldn't get rid of a dog just because she killed a bird--they way I figure, it's my fault if a situation occurred where the dog had access to the poultry without supervision.

My Luka was the best chicken babysitter I ever had, but it didn't come naturally. She killed a couple of birds as a pup, just by "playing" them to death. It took training, redirection, and teaching impulse control, but by the time she was 2 years of age, I could leave her out with the chickens all day long. They could eat out of her bowl, sit on her, and peck at her fur. I could throw her ball through a flock of birds and watch them squawk and scatter as Luka's focus remained on her ball the whole time. It's as though the birds weren't even there. I even had a Tom turkey who was constantly harassing Luka, and she just ignored him until he launched a full-on attack--then she'd simply snark at him, pull out a mouthful of feathers, and that was that. I even saw her put the Tom's head in her mouth after a particularly brazen attack, without leaving a mark on him. And yes, we got rid of that turkey eventually!

So, if the dog is smart, biddable, and shows good self-control, all of which can be seen in herding, you have a good candidate to chicken-proof.


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## mehpenn

One of my current dogs had issues with the chickens when we first brought him to our farm. It took time, and training but like your Luka, he finally caught on that they're not supposed to be chew toys. 
The dog we tried out, that didn't work out, was full on determined to kill every chicken within sight. Even taken on the farm on lead, and with correction, he still went after them. After several weeks, his determination to get the hens hadn't lessened. I know three weeks isn't long, but at some point he should have had a less severe attraction to the hens, any sign of improvement would have been promising. After no change, and talking with his owner, it was a joint decision that he'd return to her.


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## Freestep

mehpenn said:


> I know three weeks isn't long, but at some point he should have had a less severe attraction to the hens, any sign of improvement would have been promising. After no change, and talking with his owner, it was a joint decision that he'd return to her.


That makes sense. I once fostered a Pit Bull who I was able to train to a point. She wouldn't even look at the chickens while I was right there, but she never was trustworthy--should I turn my back for a moment, we'd be out a chicken (or two). Some dogs just don't internalize "don't tear that thing up" very well.


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## mehpenn

We drove out this morning to take a look at her. She's a very pretty dog, unfortunately she's got a bad shoulder and it drastically affects her gait. Her owners said it didn't affect her working ability but I noticed several times in the field that she'd hold up that right front foot while she watched the sheep.. which indicates it does bother her. They don't know what happened, but suspect she was kicked or rammed by a goat. She said she'd been like that for several months and it's not gotten worse and they didn't see it as being an issue. o_0

I sure wish they'd told me about that before we took the two hour drive out there. 

Before we left, DH offered to pay to have the dog checked out by a vet... they declined the offer.


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## ndirishfan1975

That's too bad. Makes you wonder about the integrity if they didn't disclose that before you drove that far and then refused aid to get the dog checked by a vet. 


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## Merciel

Wow, that's a shame. I feel bad for the dog not getting vet care.

Oh well. I appreciate your updating the thread to let us all know what happened. I'm always grateful when people take the time to give an end to the story.


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## mehpenn

Yes, it was a shame. I'd kind of gotten my hopes up.


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## JakodaCD OA

thats so sad especially for the dog((


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## holland

Hope someone takes the poor dog to a vet


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## Lauri & The Gang

mehpenn said:


> When I look at a dog, *the first and most important thing I review is their lineage, their working ability,* and the training they've had, because we live on a farm and it's pointless to bring a dog here if it can't or won't work. But color/coat is the second thing I look at. I don't like dogs that look washed out and have bad color. I've always known what I like and have pretty much stuck to it.


They are NOT selecting dogs based on color first.

Personally, I see no problem in passing up a dog that I don't like the looks of. There are PLENTY of dogs with AWESOME working ability, great health and correct temperament in ALL colors. Why not be picky and get what you like?


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## doggiedad

i don't know why people think you shouldn't pick a dog
because of it's color. you're not compromising anything
because you want a certain color. i also think no matter 
what color you want there's a healthy, sound dog in the
color of your choice. 



Lauri & The Gang said:


> They are NOT selecting dogs based on color first.
> 
> >>>>> Personally, I see no problem in passing up a dog
> that I don't like the looks of. There are PLENTY of dogs
> with AWESOME working ability, great health and correct
> temperament in ALL colors. Why not be picky and get what
> you like? <<<<< [/QUOTE]


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## Freestep

I personally think all the colors of GSD are beautiful. I do prefer rich tan/red pigment and a lot of black on the head and face. I suppose my perfect "looking" dog would be a dark black sable or bicolor, with a dark face accented by rich tan/red markings.

However, my perfect dog could be any color. Even "silver". I wouldn't go to a breeder that breeds FOR color, per se--for example, even though I think blue is gorgeous, I wouldn't go to a breeder specializing in blues. But if my theoretical "perfect" dog was born and it happened to be blue, I'd be ecstatic.


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## mehpenn

I personally do draw the line at the liver and blue... but that's simply my own opinion. We had a blue GSD in one of our training classes and he worked very well, but just looked odd to me. I just think they're something off about that coloring... but then again, I don't like the white ones either. 
Doesn't mean they're not great dogs, doesn't mean they're not or can't valuable working dogs... it's just not what I prefer.
I guess, to me, if you're going to have a GSD, have a GSD... a dog that's pretty close to the acceptable breed standard set and approved by the parent club of the breed. I think, in my mind, and again, this is only my opinion, but if the standard says a certain type isn't acceptable, then it shouldn't be acceptable. 

Now. Now, that I've said that, I'll be offered the most outstanding liver colored GSD tomorrow, with a pink nose and one ear that flops, and I simply will not be able to pass it up. LOL


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