# protection



## cristofa (Aug 8, 2010)

has anyone experienced a time were their german shepherd has protected them in any danger? can a non agressive german shepherd protect you from any harm?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

mine protected me from this tree stomp
in the woods. everytime we passed it
he would growl, run away from it, run back
to you and growl. then one time when he really
had it with the stump he growled at it, ran away from it,
ran back and peed on it. now that's protection.
those Schutzhund trained dogs wouldn't do that, :laugh::laugh::laugh:.

my boy is the total pet. the cable guy was
here and he walked into the house and stepped
over my dog and my dog barely raised his head.

i wanted a more protective dog but my
GF didn't. she has clients that come here
and she didn't want them being greeted
by a barking GSD. my dog was taught
that anybody entering the house
or yard is a friend.

i'm glad i have a super friendly dog.
i protect my dog. i don't count on my dog for protection
of me or the house.


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

doggiedad, my Mia is a better protector than ur doggy. lests see she protected us from the evil fire hydrant, evil yard chair placed differently than normal, evil leaf flying too close to our house and lastly the evil trash can which was not shut.! can your dog top this?:wild:


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Niko often protects me from woodsmoke and the highly dreaded bunny rabbit (I think he watched Monty Python's The Holy Grail)


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

ladies and gentlemen the moment
all of have been waiting for and the
winner is Mia, Mia ladies and gentlemen, Mia.





bellamia said:


> doggiedad, my Mia is a better protector than ur doggy. lests see she protected us from the evil fire hydrant, evil yard chair placed differently than normal, evil leaf flying too close to our house and lastly the evil trash can which was not shut.! can your dog top this?:wild:


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## Kaidsmom (Oct 12, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> Niko often protects me from woodsmoke and the highly dreaded bunny rabbit (I think he watched Monty Python's The Holy Grail)


love that movie ..LOL


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> ladies and gentlemen the moment
> all of have been waiting for and the
> winner is Mia, Mia ladies and gentlemen, Mia.


Thank you thank you! humbly bowing .now all don't be jealous of me. some people just get lucky!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cristofa said:


> can a non agressive german shepherd protect you from any harm?



To answer your question, yes; a well-adjusted, well-socialized Shepherd is a better protector than an indiscriminately aggressive one. One of the best things about this breed is the fact that so many of them have good judgment. You don't want a dog that tries to protect you from kids, grandma, and people in hats and wheelchairs. 

Fortunately I have never been in a situation where I was truly in danger but one night my husband came home from out of town late at night and when he opened the door all he** broke loose. Both my dogs ran at the door barking and growling like they were going to eat him until they realized it was their dad.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

My first GSD was most useful one night when I had gone to the local mulch dump (place where the town mulched all of the leaves they picked up) - kind of a dump area totally isolated place.
I was there loading leaf mulch into my van late one night when a couple of local boys came by and started asking dumb questions and then asking for a "donation" for getting the mulch. I thought it was going to get real interesting till Princess came out of the back of the van and stood there emitting a very low but loud growl. The two fellows suddenly decided that they really didn't need any donations and left rather quickly.
Now this was a dog that we could and did trust with anyone including little kids and anyone who we let into the house.


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## cristofa (Aug 8, 2010)

that sounds about right, german shepherds dont throw thereself to be stroked at people unless they are being nice. if someone acts dodgey they know.. even if your play fighting they but in and break it up


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## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

I didn't see the guy in the unmarked yellow van who came up to the door to drop a phone book on the front door step this morning, but Panzer did. He gave a few good solid barks. At 5 months, he may not have been being protective, but I'm sure he'll grow into it.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

Most dogs serve primarily as a deterrent, such as the one mentioned in the van story, unless your dog is well trained (emphasis on WELL) in protection. In that case they can do more than deter. The problem with protection is that only a small percentage of dogs (breed doesn't matter) and handlers are appropriate for this work. 

Of course there is nothing wrong with being a deterrent, stopping the crime before it happens is our best option. 

When I live in Venice beach I would not walk around late at night because all the junkies would hit you up for money. Then we began to foster a senior Hybrid (3/4ths timber wolf, 1/4 malamute). This old fella was the most gentle creature around humans, useless as a guard dog, but he was big and looked intimidating. 

Still I had the freedom to walk at night and nobody hitting me up for money. It was very nice. If somebody were to call my bluff he wouldn't have done a thing and I am 100% sure of that. 

BTW I liked the first 2 responses. Those were genius.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

cristofa said:


> has anyone experienced a time were their german shepherd has protected them in any danger? can a non agressive german shepherd protect you from any harm?


This is my GSD, and she is non-agressive.








Generally speaking, it should be a GSD's nature to be protective.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> This is my GSD, and she is non-agressive.
> 
> Generally speaking, it should be a GSD's nature to be protective.


 
Very true. But they also have to be discriminating in what they choose to protect us against.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

haha oliver, looks like you have been working hard at making her "non aggressive". 
Yeah my GSD is naturally aggressive, too aggressive. More likely to attract a lawsuit rather than bite an intruder, don't get me wrong she would bite an intruder. But they are unlikely to enter without a gun. But still I wouldn't bank my family's safety on her aggression. It simply is not reliable unless tested in specific circumstances. 

BTW- silly question- Does that tail down indicate fear aggression? Whenever my GSD gets freaked and starts barking her tail is up. Not sure what this means.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

pac liter, you are an interesting soul, welcome to the GSD board.



pac liter said:


> Most dogs serve primarily as a deterrent...Of course there is nothing wrong with being a deterrent, stopping the crime before it happens is our best option.


I agree 100%.




pac liter said:


> haha oliver, looks like you have been working hard at making her "non aggressive".


My GSD and I train in Schutzhund, while at the same time she is a Therapy Dog that routinely visits nursing homes and hospitals.


I think you may be confusing aggressive behaviors with protective instincts? 




pac liter said:


> Yeah my GSD is naturally aggressive, too aggressive.


Are you dealing with fear based agression? Do you pursue any formal training with your GSD?





pac liter said:


> BTW- silly question- Does that tail down indicate fear aggression? Whenever my GSD gets freaked and starts barking her tail is up. Not sure what this means.


Tail down/tucked, lips curled where teeth & gums are bare, along with ears flattened and the whites of the eyes showing would indicate a fearful dog. Barking with ears & tail up, erect posture, and hackles up is typically an alert.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

pac liter said:


> BTW- silly question- Does that tail down indicate fear aggression? Whenever my GSD gets freaked and starts barking her tail is up. Not sure what this means.


My observation has been that when a dog is in fight drive or defense drive their tails are straight out or low. When they are in prey drive, they are up and "twitchy".


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Very true. But they also have to be discriminating in what they choose to protect us against.


That is why I own and train GSDs, and everything else is just a dog.

A working GSD is capable of independent thought and able to make a decision. A properly trained GSD knows the difference between a hug and a headlock, where the trained GSD will escalate protection in relationship to the threat...they are a thinking dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> That is why I own and train GSDs, and everything else is just a dog.
> 
> A working GSD is capable of independent thought and able to make a decision. A properly trained GSD knows the difference between a hug and a headlock, where the trained GSD will escalate protection in relationship to the threat...they are a thinking dog.


Very true! And also why we have had GSD's for so long!


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## arma_dylan (Aug 18, 2010)

Very interesting stuff here. Reminds me of how Roo would always bark at my target deer in the backyard. Shes hates that thing.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

my daughter's GS is 5 yr old CH with herding and agility training and she works in group homes where he is a very frequent visitor so is used to some different behaviors. He had never showed any aggressive behavior until one night very late going into their appt when all of a sudden he hit the end of his leash snarling and teeth bared. A man then ran out of the bike shelter area, was he there stealing something or waiting to grab her?? Who knows but Sin reacted perfectly.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Trudy, Seems like what you describe is a well adjusted non-aggressive dog with good protective instincts. I would bet if the guy in question wasn't in the shadows, and acting suspicious, but instead was just a passer-by on the street, the dog's reaction would have been completely non-confrontational.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> Are you dealing with fear based agression? Do you pursue any formal training with your GSD?


Thanks for the welcome. Yes I would have guessed you are involved in schutzhund or protection sports. That is awesome. 

Her aggression seems protective/territorial. I believe her aggression is fear based but less so from when we first got her. The reason being she used to bark and keep distance from the pool man, weight on her hind legs. Now she just charges at the pool man and starts biting his equipment. I just found this out yesterday when he informed me and this wont be happening anymore as she will be inside the kennel on wednesdays. Also she is generally more confident and relaxed around most people and animals. When she does have an agressive moment her tail is sticking straight up and her hackles are raised. This usually happens in our backyard when the neighbors bounce the basketball or when there is an opossum in the tree. 

As for formal training I have her enrolled in beginner obedience. The trainer has an accomplished schutzhund/protection background so he really understands drive and how to handle or redirect her aggression. 
Of course I realize she is not suitable for schutzhund, nor am I. Still both of us have already learned a lot in only a few weeks. The class is awesome too, this trainer has a rep for dealing with aggression so I see a lot of scary/beautiful looking dogs. Few Weeks back I saw 2 owners get bit and torn up by their own dogs. These days my wife and I are far less worried about a lawsuit these days but a few months ago was a different story. Along with the classes, a very tiring exercise regime and NILF have helped greatly. 

Any tips for getting a dog out of defensive drive?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

pac liter said:


> Thanks for the welcome. Yes I would have guessed you are involved in schutzhund or protection sports. That is awesome.
> 
> Her aggression seems protective/territorial. I believe her aggression is fear based but less so from when we first got her. The reason being she used to bark and keep distance from the pool man, weight on her hind legs. Now she just charges at the pool man and starts biting his equipment. I just found this out yesterday when he informed me and this wont be happening anymore as she will be inside the kennel on wednesdays. Also she is generally more confident and relaxed around most people and animals. When she does have an agressive moment her tail is sticking straight up and her hackles are raised. This usually happens in our backyard when the neighbors bounce the basketball or when there is an opossum in the tree.
> 
> ...


If my dog is acting the way you describe in her/my yard or property....I don't have a problem with that, and I don't consider it aggression. It is simply the nature of a GSD to guard & protect the parameter.

As for how she deals with the pool guy...that sounds fearful. From a training perspective, if I were working that dog, I would focus on building confidense.

From defense to obedience is a function of a lot of training if you're working to cultivate an off switch. If you're simply looking to curtail the defense, that is kind of a oneway street, as once you start, it may be difficult to bring it back. I would say work with your local trainer, characterize what you want to accomplish with your dog, he/she should access the dog, and map-out a training path.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I was a pool guy once ...


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

Doc being a pool guy probably taught you a lot about canine aggression I am guessing. 

Oliver thanks for the advice. Yes it seems Rabbit has fear aggression that is very typical of poorly bred GSD's. Especially when it comes to sound. We are trying to turn it off. She is much better on walks (where most corrections/behavior mod occur via the training collar). She no longer wants to get at all the neighborhood kids, which was embarrassing. The list of people she wants to attack shrinks more and more every week. Still sometimes her aggression doesn't

Not too concerned with undermining her security value. Crooks in the area will off their own moms. The scary ones certainly aren't sheepish about hurting a dog with a weapon. A few barks to deter young punks is all we expect from her. She is vocal so I don't thinkg we can ever turn that off completely. We have as alarm system and gun to address serious threats. 

Here are some of her shananigans on video. Nothing big just her barking over a rodent. At 17 seconds does she change drive or is she still in prey?
Is this fear aggression? I know she has FA but this is a rodent, is she scared of mice too?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

pac liter said:


> Yes it seems Rabbit has fear aggression that is very typical of poorly bred GSD's.


I think it is too general to say fear aggression is typical of poorly bred GSD's. It could be seen more commonly in some lines of GSDs, but certainly isn't limited to just particular lines...more specifically, it isn't limited to genetics, as how the dog is raised can influence fear aggression.



pac liter said:


> At 17 seconds does she change drive or is she still in prey? Is this fear aggression? I know she has FA but this is a rodent, is she scared of mice too?


 I could not get the last portion of the video to load, but what I saw was prey drive, no aggression, and specifically, no fear.


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