# Being "civil" and social aggression?



## PatchonGSD

I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.

1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?


2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?

3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve? 

4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?


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## PatchonGSD

:bump:


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## Jag

I've read other threads about this before. What sites did you look at? I'm interested to know what people like Cliff, Carmen, Chris, and others that have Czech dogs (or partly Czech dogs) have to say on this as well. From what I've read, it's not something that can be trained, and PS line dogs all have it to varying degrees. I was told to expect Grim to be very civil.


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## KristiM

This is a tough topic and you are going to get a lot of different opinions, if anyone decides to post To me a dog that is civil is a dog willing to bite a person not just a sleeve. Havoc had a lot of civil agitation done as a young dog and was more than willing to bite the person, didn't care as much about equipment.

As an example of what I "think" social aggression is (and I could very well be way off) but I would say that Havoc also has a degree of "social aggression." He doesn't react to people he just seeks out eye contact with them, with this "ya wanna fight??" kind of look. If people don't get threatening he just moves on but stays aware of their presence. I very much discourage this because I have no need for it but I can see him being very confrontational if it was encourged. One time hiking there was a young woman with her boyfriend who was holding a chihuhua type dog. When she saw my two GSDs she was obviously quite irritated, she went across a dry creek and stood there with her hand on her hip and just GLARED at us. Havoc went to the edge of the creek GLARED back and did kind of a "huff" (which is his "I'm not screwing around" noise.) I easily called him off but he was very ready for a fight with her (so was I lol) If I didn't have him to control I would have probably asked WTH her problem was, I guess having a confrontational dog sometimes keeps me out of trouble lol.


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## onyx'girl

The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

From what I understand the term civil means a dog that is not equipment oriented....will bite regardless of not having a sleeve as target. 

In real life, it goes the same way.....a civil dog carries some suspicion(it is genetic not trained)


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## gagsd

Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.

Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame.


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## KristiM

onyx'girl said:


> The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament


Lol, the social aggression section just described Havoc. I guess I wasn't far off in my perception of "social aggression."


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## PatchonGSD

Jag said:


> I've read other threads about this before. What sites did you look at? I'm interested to know what people like Cliff, Carmen, Chris, and others that have Czech dogs (or partly Czech dogs) have to say on this as well. From what I've read, it's not something that can be trained, and PS line dogs all have it to varying degrees. I was told to expect Grim to be very civil.


I googled and looked about 1000 different sites. Breeder sites to the PDB and it was all different, lol. 



KristiM said:


> This is a tough topic and you are going to get a lot of different opinions, if anyone decides to post To me a dog that is civil is a dog willing to bite a person not just a sleeve. Havoc had a lot of civil agitation done as a young dog and was more than willing to bite the person, didn't care as much about equipment.
> 
> As an example of what I "think" social aggression is (and I could very well be way off) but I would say that Havoc also has a degree of "social aggression." He doesn't react to people he just seeks out eye contact with them, with this "ya wanna fight??" kind of look. If people don't get threatening he just moves on but stays aware of their presence. I very much discourage this because I have no need for it but I can see him being very confrontational if it was encourged. One time hiking there was a young woman with her boyfriend who was holding a chihuhua type dog. When she saw my two GSDs she was obviously quite irritated, she went across a dry creek and stood there with her hand on her hip and just GLARED at us. *Havoc went to the edge of the creek GLARED back and did kind of a "huff" (which is his "I'm not screwing around" noise.) I easily called him off but he was very ready for a fight with her (so was I lol)* If I didn't have him to control I would have probably asked WTH her problem was, I guess having a confrontational dog sometimes keeps me out of trouble lol.


That visual totally made me laugh out loud! Thank you for your explanation. 



onyx'girl said:


> The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament
> 
> From what I understand the term civil means a dog that is not equipment oriented....will bite regardless of not having a sleeve as target.
> 
> In real life, it goes the same way.....a civil dog carries some suspicion(it is genetic not trained)


Thanks for the link! I didnt know there were so many "types" of aggression, lol. I thought "pissed off was just pissed off. 



gagsd said:


> Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
> I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.
> 
> Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame.


Couldnt any dog bite without equipment? Or does it have to do with dogs being trained and worked in "prey drive" and not defense/aggression that keeps them from biting the flesh?


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## pets4life

yeah like the other poster said i don't think social aggression has anything to do with being civil. 

you can have one without the other.


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## KristiM

For a lot of dogs it's about the sleeve. Some people like to do civil work to bring out more aggression and realism, some don't see the point. I know Odin was trained in pretty much all prey, I think he would (and did once) bite the helper but he would have definitely used bite inhibition. It was all a game to him and it was super fun for both of us. I think a dogs ability to be civil will depend on the temperament of the dog but also a lot depends on the training and foundation of a dog. I think you could take most sport dogs and have them bite "for real" in prey. When they are biting to defend themselves its a whole different ball game and if your dog isn't solid you would have some issues stemming from it. Not every dog can handle that type of pressure.

And I do agree social aggression is different than being civil. I think it would make sense to have a dog that can be civil and not socially aggressive but not so much the other way around.


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## pets4life

kristi u really think most sport dogs will bite with no equipment on ? how would you make them do that usually just curious if you had to?


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## gagsd

"Prey" can be two very different things. I have realized this recently

Is the helper working as the prey?
or is the sleeve presented as the prey?

Very different concepts.... both considered working in "prey."


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## gagsd

pets4life said:


> kristi u really think most sport dogs will bite with no equipment on ? how would you make them do that usually just curious if you had to?


Many sport dogs that I have seen, are proofed *against* biting without equipment.


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## pets4life

a lot of dogs seem to be in a state of mix of prey and defense they arent in either drive though


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## PatchonGSD

So what is the difference between "civil" and social aggression? I was starting to think it was the same thing.


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## PatchonGSD

Also, is "social aggression" a bad thing? I've read in other threads on the PDB that some people think that it should not be bred for and cant understand why anyone would want a dog with social aggression.


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## KristiM

gagsd said:


> "Prey" can be two very different things. I have realized this recently
> 
> Is the helper working as the prey?
> or is the sleeve presented as the prey?
> 
> Very different concepts.... both considered working in "prey."


This is how you get sport dogs to bite "for real" the helper acts like prey. You frustrate the dog the same way you would with a sleeve or pillow, only there is no sleeve or pillow just a person. The dog bites out of frustration "prey."


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## onyx'girl

There is also the dog that doesn't need to be teased up(eye contact or a facial expression is enough). It'll bite for real just because it can. 
This is where handler management comes in when the dog is young/learning because a young dog doesn't always make the right choices!


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## PatchonGSD

onyx'girl said:


> There is also the dog that doesn't need to be teased up(eye contact or a facial expression is enough). It'll bite for real just because it can.
> This is where handler management comes in when the dog is young/learning because a young dog doesn't always make the right choices!


Is that civil or social aggression?


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## KristiM

PatchonGSD said:


> Also, is "social aggression" a bad thing? I've read in other threads on the PDB that some people think that it should not be bred for and cant understand why anyone would want a dog with social aggression.


This would depend on what you want the dog for. Don't get me wrong I do love Havoc but owning him is a challenge. He is always kinda looking for a fight and I have to watch him like a hawk. I think about what would happen if some dummy decides to challenge back? Stranger things have happened. Havoc would bite someone, not because he is scared or whatever but because he is a dominant a** who thinks he owns the world. I can understand why you would want a SMALL amount of it, like it talks about in that link posted, it is not about a fight/flight thing and the dog is not stressed about it. So it can be useful for bite work, also useful for police dogs I would imagine.

After owning Havoc, I don't want another dog like this. Ya his larger than life personality is cool, but he is sooo much work.


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## x11

onyx'girl said:


> There is also the dog that doesn't need to be teased up(eye contact or a facial expression is enough). It'll bite for real just because it can.


anything like the behaviours this green pup is showing;

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n-dogs/194512-potential-serious-side-vid.html


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## KristiM

onyx'girl said:


> There is also the dog that doesn't need to be teased up(eye contact or a facial expression is enough). It'll bite for real just because it can.
> This is where handler management comes in when the dog is young/learning because a young dog doesn't always make the right choices!


This^ As Havoc matures I have become more comfortable with his decision making but I do still worry about the dummy that decides to challenge him. He will always have to be "managed" because of this.


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## Jag

x11 said:


> anything like the behaviours this green pup is showing;
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n-dogs/194512-potential-serious-side-vid.html


Um, I don't see it.


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## Jag

KristiM said:


> This would depend on what you want the dog for. Don't get me wrong I do love Havoc but owning him is a challenge. He is always kinda looking for a fight and I have to watch him like a hawk. I think about what would happen if some dummy decides to challenge back? Stranger things have happened. Havoc would bite someone, not because he is scared or whatever but because he is a dominant a** who thinks he owns the world. I can understand why you would want a SMALL amount of it, like it talks about in that link posted, it is not about a fight/flight thing and the dog is not stressed about it. So it can be useful for bite work, also useful for police dogs I would imagine.
> 
> After owning Havoc, I don't want another dog like this. Ya his larger than life personality is cool, but he is sooo much work.


This is how I'm thinking Grim will be. Just because he has that "I own the world" personality already. He's had that forever. I'll have to wait and see as he matures how he carries himself with this mentality. When he struts like that I call him "Mr. Grim" LOL!


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## x11

Jag said:


> Um, I don't see it.


don't see the behavior or the vid??


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## KristiM

x11 said:


> anything like the behaviours this green pup is showing;
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n-dogs/194512-potential-serious-side-vid.html


I think the potential is there. In the first vid he definitely strikes me as more excited than anything. I think you need a better hepler lol, hopefully you don't take offense to that Dogs need building by experienced helpers. He looks like a nice dog, not overly serious, but at this age he really shouldn't be. The important thing (to my inexperienced eye) is that he really doesn't look insecure, the barrier does help with that though. Nice dog, an experienced helper will be able to give you a good idea of his potential and help to build on his strong points.


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## x11

KristiM said:


> I think the potential is there. In the first vid he definitely strikes me as more excited than anything. I think you need a better hepler lol, hopefully you don't take offense to that Dogs need building by experienced helpers. He looks like a nice dog, not overly serious, but at this age he really shouldn't be. The important thing (to my inexperienced eye) is that he really doesn't look insecure, the barrier does help with that though. Nice dog, an experienced helper will be able to give you a good idea of his potential and help to build on his strong points.


not offended by helper comment - he's all i got so hope he doesn't read yr comment


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## PatchonGSD

KristiM said:


> This would depend on what you want the dog for. Don't get me wrong I do love Havoc but owning him is a challenge. He is always kinda looking for a fight and I have to watch him like a hawk. I think about what would happen if some dummy decides to challenge back? Stranger things have happened. Havoc would bite someone, not because he is scared or whatever but because he is a dominant a** who thinks he owns the world. I can understand why you would want a SMALL amount of it, like it talks about in that link posted, it is not about a fight/flight thing and the dog is not stressed about it. So it can be useful for bite work, also useful for police dogs I would imagine.
> 
> After owning Havoc, I don't want another dog like this. Ya his larger than life personality is cool, but he is sooo much work.



So in other words...a dog with social aggression is a dog that isnt hard to "set off" and will happily "take the challenger on his challenge." Is that fair to say?


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## pets4life

kristi dog havoc sounds like both a social aggessive and a civil dog in 1 a 2 in 1 deal lol


A dog like is also what onyx was talking about.


Pactchon NO that is not the case you can make any civil dog fight you pretty much but a dog like havoc just sounds like he is LOOKING for a fight he is what my trainer calls an "aggressive civil dog' Or what we are calling a civil dog with social aggression. 


You can make a good dog fight a person pretty easy by fighting their handler or fighting them a good decoy can turn on a good dog within seconds. But a dog like the one kristi talks about seems to beg for that kind of challenge from ANYONE> A real piece of work lol These dogs need a very experienced handler and are not common at all.

Jag most gsds have the i can take on the world attitude but the one shes talking about is something else. I am pretty sure ur not going to end up with a dog like this.

x11 i don't think ur dog is like that either tbh. JMHO.


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## KristiM

PatchonGSD said:


> So in other words...a dog with social aggression is a dog that isnt hard to "set off" and will happily "take the challenger on his challenge." Is that fair to say?


First I'm really not an expert, but have learned a lot because of Havoc. He isn't easy to set off in a reactive type of way, like people acting funny, wearing stuff he's never seen before, etc. But yes easy to set off if you are being overly forward, aggressive, staring etc. Also when he gets "set off" he doesn't make nosie initially, he will "go" for someone and if he can't reach them he will start to huff and puff very angrily. He won't "set off" like a normal reactive dog, for expample when Havoc is staring someone down and they are oblivious and walk up and pet him I don't worry about him biting them. But if that GLARING woman on the hike started approaching us yelling or something he would have happily engaged her.


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## pets4life

My trainer said he won't work dogs like these without a full body suit. They are very dirty biters and fighters. My dog only wen't for my trainers hands once and it was scary lol


she did go for his chest also tho couple of times lol


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## Jag

x11 said:


> don't see the behavior or the vid??


The behavior. Tail is up and wagging, looks like a lot of excitement and prey drive. 

pets4life- I think I'll go with my breeder's opinion, and what I've seen so far. Given that she knows the lines and knows his parents, and she raised him and knows his raw temperament. 

PatchonGSD- these are the dogs that "bring the heat" and "like to fight". The only real downside is if they aren't biddable and will even fight with the handler. I can tell you honestly that having a pup wanting to fight with you and challenge you is a shocker. Makes for some fast re-adjusting on how you handle things real quick.


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## KristiM

pets4life said:


> kristi dog havoc sounds like both a social aggessive and a civil dog in 1 a 2 in 1 deal lol
> 
> 
> A dog like is also what onyx was talking about.
> 
> 
> Pactchon NO that is not the case you can make any civil dog fight you pretty much but a dog like havoc just sounds like he is LOOKING for a fight he is what my trainer calls an "aggressive civil dog' Or what we are calling a civil dog with social aggression.
> 
> 
> You can make a good dog fight a person pretty easy by fighting their handler or fighting them a good decoy can turn on a good dog within seconds. But a dog like the one kristi talks about seems to beg for that kind of challenge from ANYONE> A real piece of work lol These dogs need a very experienced handler and are not common at all.
> 
> Jag most gsds have the i can take on the world attitude but the one shes talking about is something else. I am pretty sure ur not going to end up with a dog like this.
> 
> x11 i don't think ur dog is like that either tbh. JMHO.


I have worked with dogs for about 12 years now, mostly pets, ran a daycare for several years etc. I only did schutzhund for 3 years so I don't have a ton of experience with working GSDs, but I can say that I have never met a dog like Havoc. I don't think dogs like him are very common. I am always afraid my posts about him come off as bragging about my bad a** dog, I am not. He is exhausting, and I really don't think the vast majority of people could handle him, nor would they want to. 

(I do love him though, and I try really hard to stay positive about him. To me and my husband he can really be such a sweetie, and he does have a lot of good traits.)


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## PatchonGSD

I think I have a better understanding, but I guess a part of it is just seeing the dog for yourself.


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## onyx'girl

That would be a good idea, you are close to Nate or Mike's right? Best places to see for yourself


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## PatchonGSD

onyx'girl said:


> That would be a good idea, you are close to Nate or Mike's right? Best places to see for yourself


I believe so. I've never had any dealings with either of them, but I guess I could contact them and see if I could watch them work with their dogs. I'm finding this subject to be pretty fascinating. lol


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## pets4life

u can take ur jack russel with u to watch lol


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## hunterisgreat

PatchonGSD said:


> I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.
> 
> 1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?
> 
> 
> 2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?
> 
> 3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?
> 
> 4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?


Yes in most contexts

Yes

Yes

Jäger is very civil. Katya & Aska are not. Jäger does not like strangers. Jäger will posture back and up the anty to anyone who postures at him. Ill try to get a video of it in an hour or so


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## hunterisgreat

PatchonGSD said:


> I believe so. I've never had any dealings with either of them, but I guess I could contact them and see if I could watch them work with their dogs. I'm finding this subject to be pretty fascinating. lol


Assuming Nate Harves or Mike Diehl are who she was referring to. Jäger is from Nates Stuka, who is from Mikes stormfront Brawnson. They have very powerful intense dogs. Not as prey flashy as many sport dogs. The dogs are real

In contrast to an earlier post, jäger is my dog that needs less management. He is my easy one to own


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## hunterisgreat

KristiM said:


> This is how you get sport dogs to bite "for real" the helper acts like prey. You frustrate the dog the same way you would with a sleeve or pillow, only there is no sleeve or pillow just a person. The dog bites out of frustration "prey."


Yeah but that's still a prey bite. Not "real". Walk up to the dog with a lot of posture and presense. If he returns in kind, he is civil. He wants to dominate you, not eat or play tug. His desire is to show you he is badder than you are. This is the social aspect of a civil dog, as it is a competition based behavior. He perceives you as a competitor, not prey. This is why civil dogs are always very dominant. I can teach any dog to bite without equipment, but you don't need to teach a civil dog, you just push the right buttons


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## KristiM

hunterisgreat said:


> Yeah but that's still a prey bite. Not "real". Walk up to the dog with a lot of posture and presense. If he returns in kind, he is civil. He wants to dominate you, not eat or play tug. His desire is to show you he is badder than you are. This is the social aspect of a civil dog, as it is a competition based behavior. He perceives you as a competitor, not prey. This is why civil dogs are always very dominant. I can teach any dog to bite without equipment, but you don't need to teach a civil dog, you just push the right buttons


That's exactly what I was saying, you just said it better The bite is real in the sense that there is no equipment, but the bite is out of prey.


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## codmaster

This definition of "civil" is interesting in that in other contexts the word usually refers to someone who is easygoing and easy to get along with. I didn't used to believe the definition in dog circles when I first heard it applied to an aggressive dog toward people.

Interesting use of the word.

More common uses

"It was hard to be *civil* when I felt so angry.
She was barely *civil *to me."


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## codmaster

PatchonGSD said:


> So in other words...a dog with social aggression is a dog that isnt hard to "set off" and will happily "take the challenger on his challenge." Is that fair to say?


There is also the issue of "Threshold" often talked about in dog temperament.

I.E. what does it take to set him off? That is what does the dog need to "trigger" their reaction.

A "low" threshold dog will react much quicker than one with a "high" threshold.


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## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> This definition of "civil" is interesting in that in other contexts the word usually refers to someone who is easygoing and easy to get along with. I didn't used to believe the definition in dog circles when I first heard it applied to an aggressive dog toward people.
> 
> Interesting use of the word.
> 
> More common uses
> 
> "It was hard to be *civil* when I felt so angry.
> She was barely *civil *to me."


You could also describe a TSA bomb dog at the airport a civil dog, as he is working in civil service


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## gagsd

I think Mrs K. talked about how the term "civil" came to be used based on the German usage. Can't remember the specifics.


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## wolfstraum

These two terms are generally used....and perceptions vary....

I think they overlap.....and look at them more like a verb and a noun...

A dog who has social aggression is - IMO - a confident dominant dog who is balanced in drives, but has the components needed to be civil in work. To show appropriate aggression, to do suit work or hidden sleeve work naturally, a dog who does NOT stand over a sleeve on the ground while the helper cracks a whip or feints at him trying to get his attention.....a dog who spits out a sleeve and goes over it at the helper who has gone inactive while you "run in a circle" with the dog....Csabre did this and we had to teach her to carry the sleeve as she cared nothing for the sleeve and wanted that guy who was threatening her when she bit him.....

Social aggression is a term that to me describes a character trait. Civil is the action and behavior in motion.


Lee


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## Jag

wolfstraum said:


> These two terms are generally used....and perceptions vary....
> 
> I think they overlap.....and look at them more like a verb and a noun...
> 
> A dog who has social aggression is - IMO - a confident dominant dog who is balanced in drives, but has the components needed to be civil in work. To show appropriate aggression, to do suit work or hidden sleeve work naturally, a dog who does NOT stand over a sleeve on the ground while the helper cracks a whip or feints at him trying to get his attention.....a dog who spits out a sleeve and goes over it at the helper who has gone inactive while you "run in a circle" with the dog....Csabre did this and we had to teach her to carry the sleeve as she cared nothing for the sleeve and wanted that guy who was threatening her when she bit him.....
> 
> Social aggression is a term that to me describes a character trait. Civil is the action and behavior in motion.
> 
> 
> Lee


That was crystal clear, Lee, thank you! One more question related to this. This is a genetic trait, correct? So would a breeder know what they will produce will carry this trait? Or would it be something that wouldn't be known until the dog is an adult? Can you see anything in pups that would lead you to believe that a dog has this trait?


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## hunterisgreat

Jag said:


> That was crystal clear, Lee, thank you! One more question related to this. This is a genetic trait, correct? So would a breeder know what they will produce will carry this trait? Or would it be something that wouldn't be known until the dog is an adult? Can you see anything in pups that would lead you to believe that a dog has this trait?


Yes it is largely genetic. Thats why labs and such are almost never civil.

To a degree yes in the same way you can take an educated guess about any other trait in a puppy. The puppy wouldn't show aggression at a person, but how the pup interacts with his littermates can give you an idea. For example I was told Jäger always took the toy he wanted and played with it alone as a puppy, and wouldn't let his littermates play with it. He didn't really want to play with his littermates so much. He is now 5 and he is still the same way. He only plays with Katya and thats only here and there. He loves to play with people, but the games are always "I dare you to take this toy from me" type games, except for retrieving a ball which he dearly loves. The challenge over a toy games are all a show of social dominate behavior. Hard to describe, you'd have to see it first hand.

You can train behaviors, but you cannot train traits or desires or drives. A civil or socially aggressive dog will desire to challenge opponents so. When this dog barks at someone and the person knowingly or unknowingly displays submissive behaviour, this is deeply satisfying to this type of dog. They have big ego's.


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## gagsd

This dog is said to have produced "social aggression" VA1 Mutz aus der Kückstraße.

Even people with a ton of experience debate whether social aggression exists, and if it does, is it "good?"
Dogs like Mink, SG Mink vom Haus Wittfeld
Boban, Boban von Grauen Monstab
Feivel (and Faro) Feivel Von Den Wannaer Hohen
and '00&'02 WPO CHAMPION Stormfront's Brawnson
are dogs that based on my (limited) knowledge, may be dogs that possessed social aggression.
Some of these dogs have the reputation as being "handler aggressive." But I have also heard some of the stories regarding how they were handled, and if true, it seems no wonder.
Donn Yarnall wrote a super piece a while back regarding how some dogs work much, much, better when treated as a partner rather than as if by a dictator. (paraphrasing!).


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## codmaster

hunterisgreat said:


> *Yes it is largely genetic. Thats why labs and such are almost never civil.*
> 
> ..............
> You can train behaviors, but you cannot train traits or desires or drives. A civil or socially aggressive dog will desire to challenge opponents so. When this dog barks at someone and the person knowingly or unknowingly displays submissive behaviour, this is deeply satisfying to this type of dog. They have big ego's.


 
But not every pup in the same litter will have the same behavior, will they?

If there are three pups in a liter with the same genetic make up to act this way, would they all show the behavior; or is it an "Alpha" like thing where there may be multiple dogs with the dominant personality but only one "Alpha"?


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## gagsd

Jag said:


> .... Can you see anything in pups that would lead you to believe that a dog has this trait?


I have a dog that possess an amount of social aggression (by my definition, - just so no one gets undies in a wad).
At 8 weeks old, when he "won" the rag from the helper, he would place his little puppy paw on it and stare at the helper and dare him to get that rag. I had never seen anything like it. He would walk out on the field cool as a cucumber, so calm people thought he was a dud.... until he was engaged.

As an adult, he has literally stopped grown people in their tracks with a look.


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> I have a dog that possess an amount of social aggression (by my definition, - just so no one gets undies in a wad).
> At 8 weeks old, when he "won" the rag from the helper, he would place his little puppy paw on it and stare at the helper and dare him to get that rag. I had never seen anything like it. He would walk out on the field cool as a cucumber, so calm people thought he was a dud.... until he was engaged.
> 
> As an adult, he has literally stopped grown people in their tracks with a look.


(Shameless photo opp of my dog Jäger)

Jäger is very civil & very socially aggressive (by my definitions of the terms). Never lunged or bit a person or dog. However, almost no one will approach him without asking me and getting assurance he is safe b/c he just gives off that vibe. This is his "Le Tigre" that makes people submit or go into avoidance in public lol. He does this same stare when a strange person comes up to use when we are at a bar or restaurant. Just a quiet, soul piercing stare.


----------



## Jag

Thanks, all for your input!  Much appreciated!

Hunter, I LOVE that pic of him!! Beyond stunning!


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## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> But not every pup in the same litter will have the same behavior, will they?
> 
> If there are three pups in a liter with the same genetic make up to act this way, would they all show the behavior; or is it an "Alpha" like thing where there may be multiple dogs with the dominant personality but only one "Alpha"?


Nope. The minority of the dogs would, but they would/should all express some level. In the wild, from a genetic & inheritance standpoint, it is bad if all the dogs come out as bad mo-fo's. Then you have the too-many-chiefs-and-not-enough-indians problem. It is better for the pack and for a species for most dogs to not be so dominant, and only a small minority be highly dominant.

Remember, all the dogs in a litter have very similar genes, but they all got select genes from both parents and then there are mutations along the way. They all are "fraternal twins", which as you see in humans have great variation from each other while being still clearly their parent's children.


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## gagsd

Exactly the look Ari gives. It must be a hand-me-down from Brawnson.

Ari also, has never lunged or bitten anyone (except during training). The children at the club can get him out of the car and play with him. 
But the vibe he gives off, is scary at times and hew has made people walk away on more than one occasion.... with never a bark, growl or hackle..


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## hunterisgreat

And this is him telling the foster dog he is too close to me right now. The monkey was for comic relief.


----------



## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> Exactly the look Ari gives. It must be a hand-me-down from Brawnson.
> 
> Ari also, has never lunged or bitten anyone (except during training). The children at the club can get him out of the car and play with him.
> But the vibe he gives off, is scary at times and hew has made people walk away on more than one occasion.... with never a bark, growl or hackle..


Yeah I've never seen Jäger hackle in training (and we do some very high aggression training). 

Is Ari from Brawnson? From what I understand, it is definitely a trait from Brawnson


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## KristiM

@jag I think social aggression to an extent can be predicted by a breeder. I was told havoc would be like this based on his 3/4 siblings. I believe Lee has quite a bit of experience with these siblings and his sire? As well ad bred a female that is a 1/2 sister to his dam. His 3/4 brother was born about 1 year before him and was described as a little too serious for top sport and would make a better police dog. I believe he is currently an active police dog. 

I think a lot of being able to tell what a dog has is about the "vibe" they give off. People very rarely will approach havoc just because he gives that "look" the don't f with me look. 

I also think that a dog that is socially aggressive, always upping the ante, doesn't "like" strangers, will bite if challenged etc. should be watched a little more closely (managed) around people. JMO. 


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## gagsd

Ari is a Brawnson grandson.
I have his mother and brother here. Neither of them possess the same "something." Although his mom does command respect. I learned very quickly not to grab at her collar when she came here.


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## KristiM

I knew Boban, seemed like just a lot of hype around the dog because he ripped up a few handlers. He for sure was dominant and stubborn. I met him beyond his prime though and I think he had lived in some pretty pathetic conditions with some pretty crappy handlers.


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> Ari is a Brawnson grandson.
> I have his mother and brother here. Neither of them possess the same "something." Although his mom does command respect. I learned very quickly not to grab at her collar when she came here.


Jäger is a Brawnson grandson  one thing I love about him is his bark is much more intimidating than almost any other GSDs I've seen. Even ones that are also similar in their drives etc. he has a really deep bark for a GSD


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## pets4life

hunter i sent u a pvt


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## pets4life

in a litter tho of 5 pups one can be the alpha but in a years time if all pups stay together that same alpha will be over taken by another pup, it shifts a lot 

thats why people get 2 female gsd and they think it will work having 1 alpha but when they both mature the beta often turns out to think its the boss lol

I have heard of this happening a few times has anyone else like breeders ?


gags is the no collar grabbing thing cause she was an adult and not use to it? and you are a stranger to her? do you think its not safe to let a stranger grab any protection dogs collar? even tho they seem okay with it one day they just might get annoyied and bite?


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## Jag

KristiM said:


> @jag I think social aggression to an extent can be predicted by a breeder. I was told havoc would be like this based on his 3/4 siblings. I believe Lee has quite a bit of experience with these siblings and his sire? As well ad bred a female that is a 1/2 sister to his dam. His 3/4 brother was born about 1 year before him and was described as a little too serious for top sport and would make a better police dog. I believe he is currently an active police dog.
> 
> I think a lot of being able to tell what a dog has is about the "vibe" they give off. People very rarely will approach havoc just because he gives that "look" the don't f with me look.
> 
> I also think that a dog that is socially aggressive, always upping the ante, doesn't "like" strangers, will bite if challenged etc. should be watched a little more closely (managed) around people. JMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


OK, thanks. I was wondering if breeders could really 'know'. I'd rather have the 'heads up' ahead of time to know what to expect if possible. Everything else has been 100% spot on that I was told by my breeder. Anybody know what Czech line dogs bring this trait?


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## pets4life

old border patrol lines they say, but again ive met a border patrol bitch that was from those lines that seem less defensive than my girl when being worked so its just so hard to say. She was not mixed with west german or anything.

Better to look at breeders of working dogs and ask for individual dog traits than lines


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## Jag

pets4life said:


> old border patrol lines they say, but again ive met a border patrol bitch that was from those lines that seem less defensive than my girl when being worked so its just so hard to say. She was not mixed with west german or anything.
> 
> Better to look at breeders of working dogs and ask for individual dog traits than lines


Right, gotcha. That's why I asked about which individual dogs. I believe the breeder, just wondering which ones are known for this out of my own curiosity.


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## wolfstraum

a couple of thoughts....

Yes - Cordan an Sat - Lord G. - both known for producing social aggression....Brawnson was and produced it - Poor Boban - I think he was so over the top aggressive period....that he was in a constant state of self defense too...

IMO - Handler aggression has NOTHING to do with Social aggression!!!!!!!!!!! There are dogs known to be and pass on handler aggression.....without getting into another major disagreement over certain dogs.....I have both personally seen and personally KNOWN a few dogs who had or at some point exhibited HA....only a few were so extreme they were euthanized....and as I know the owners of an infamous one, and have discussed it....it is my opinion, the dog was just plain crazy with aggression - it was not reactive handler aggression from abuse....

Yes - it is genetic. Some lines will produce it and it is exhibited in a self defense mode...but others are just 'screw you - I will do what I want' handler aggressive. 

Social aggression is also genetic. Nessel v haus Antverpa was known for this, and for producing strong aggression. I know a LE Officer who had a dog bred by Chip Weiss in MI who was 2-2 on Nessel....strong strong dog - produced a ton of police dogs. I had a granddaughter of that male, and she was linebred on Lord....bred her...got very strong dogs in the whole litter with social aggression (C litter)...one is a LE border patrol dog, one was in a club where this was highly valued and many offers were made for the dog to be sold as a police dog....the next generation is also showing strong social aggression among other desireable traits. Interestingly, that generation also contains Cordan, so the social aggression aspect is brought forward from both sides - but both parents are stable, social dogs who have never ever shown any inappropriate aggression.

At the Nationals, Pam and Gary Hanarahan looked at Csabre and remarked that rather than Pirol, Gary's old competition dog, she was very very like Nessel - her gr grandfather....while I would never do a 2-2, that breeding on Nessel was done to produce a certain type of dog and the genetics are carrying through strongly.

Lee


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## wolfstraum

KristiM said:


> @jag I think social aggression to an extent can be predicted by a breeder. I was told havoc would be like this based on his 3/4 siblings. I believe Lee has quite a bit of experience with these siblings and his sire? As well ad bred a female that is a 1/2 sister to his dam. His 3/4 brother was born about 1 year before him and was described as a little too serious for top sport and would make a better police dog. I believe he is currently an active police dog.
> 
> I think a lot of being able to tell what a dog has is about the "vibe" they give off. People very rarely will approach havoc just because he gives that "look" the don't f with me look.
> 
> I also think that a dog that is socially aggressive, always upping the ante, doesn't "like" strangers, will bite if challenged etc. should be watched a little more closely (managed) around people. JMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I disagree - the dog should be balanced enough to understand and recognize a threat - a dog with strong social aggression should NOT be unsafe - that is not a sound dog! Chuck himself is safe in social situations, he is good with children, he is not constantly aroused in a suspicious way....I have had him on a leash with a toy and done obedience with him...there are other elements in your dogs pedigree, from the dam line on the dam - NOT the sire line! - that MIXED with elements of Chucks that could easily push his temperament up a notch IMO

Lee


----------



## BlackthornGSD

Just wanted to point out that the link to Feivel earlier in the thread went to this dog--

Feivel Von Den Wannaer Hohen [Not!Feivel]

instead of this dog:

Feivel von den Wannaer Höhen


----------



## KristiM

I wouldn't consider my dog "unsafe" in social situations. But I do keep an extremely close eye on him in cases where there is a bit of confrontation. For example a few months ago was visiting my moms acreage, nearby is a natural area. We were walking the dogs and some dummy was shooting at rocks along the river with a 22. My stepdad told him to take it to the range (sine there were people fishing, walking dogs etc.) Dude got ornery about it, havoc dropped his toy and began to approach the dude in an unhappy way. If I didn't have a good recall and some control in that situation he probably would have been shot Was havoc wrong? I don't think so, we were all pretty tense about this **** head with a gun yelling at us! I have had a couple situations like this that could easily have gone south and the attitude around here is if your dog bites someone, your wrong. Period. 

Havoc is fine in crowds (ever been to an agility trial?) He plays super nice with my niece and nephew and my grandma but does not "like" strangers and is generally quite dominant towards them. 

My other dog thinks I am so bad a** that he never needs to worry about it And hence I never need to worry about him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## gagsd

BlackthornGSD said:


> Just wanted to point out that the link to Feivel earlier in the thread went to this dog--
> 
> Feivel Von Den Wannaer Hohen [Not!Feivel]
> 
> instead of this dog:
> 
> Feivel von den Wannaer Höhen


LOL! Glad you caught that! 
Sooooo, not the right dog.


----------



## gagsd

pets4life said:


> ....
> gags is the no collar grabbing thing cause she was an adult and not use to it? and you are a stranger to her? do you think its not safe to let a stranger grab any protection dogs collar? even tho they seem okay with it one day they just might get annoyied and bite?


She did not really respect/like me for more than a month after I got her. She accepted me as the human who fed her and brushed her.... but corrections were a big no-no.
Once I started working her and we had a relationship, she is actually very sensitive to my voice. I am sure I could have demanded obedience and compliance from day 1, but it likely would not have been pretty.


----------



## gagsd

wolfstraum said:


> I disagree - the dog should be balanced enough to understand and recognize a threat - a dog with strong social aggression should NOT be unsafe - that is not a sound dog! Chuck himself is safe in social situations, he is good with children, he is not constantly aroused in a suspicious way....I have had him on a leash with a toy and done obedience with him...there are other elements in your dogs pedigree, from the dam line on the dam - NOT the sire line! - that MIXED with elements of Chucks that could easily push his temperament up a notch IMO
> 
> Lee


Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach?
If so, interesting.... in that I took special note of him at the WDC in Nashville ( I think that was the event). He really caught my eye in protection.


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## hunterisgreat

My highly civil and socially aggressive Brawnson grandson is very handler soft. He would never dream of biting me. We have a level of clarity as to our relationship and what the rules are that I wish I had with my other dogs. He is also the dog I worry the least about in public.


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## KristiM

Im just curious about what dogs on the dams damline would be the issue? I believe I read on here that belschick Von eicken-bruche was known as being rather nasty. Optikas dusty is line bred 2-3 on him. Is that where his potential "extra temperament" may come from. I do find him a little over the top, but not in a nervy way, in an overly dominant way. Not directed at me... Just everyone else.


----------



## gagsd

KristiM said:


> Im just curious about what dogs on the dams damline would be the issue? I believe I read on here that belschick Von eicken-bruche was known as being rather nasty. Optikas dusty is line bred 2-3 on him. Is that where his potential "extra temperament" may come from. I do find him a little over the top, but not in a nervy way, in an overly dominant way. Not directed at me... Just everyone else.


I know of two Tom Leefdaalhof g-sons that can be..... a bit difficult. The third one I know is nice.
I have a Tom g-daughter, just 4 months. She is proving to be the most challenging puppy I have raised.
Very low trigger, quick to act, and determined little devil.

And the dam's dam line... perhaps the Gildo?


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## wolfstraum

{gagsd} Yes - it is Chuck Dorneberger Bach.....I have spent some time with him, had him on a lead, did obedience with him.....Dan just handed me a ball and his leash and said - take him out and work with him....you don't do that with a dog who is inappropriately aggressive! Chuck is very powerful in the work...his OB is not so flashy and IMO he lost the championship on the finest points of OB....crisper, straighter sits, not quite enough flash in heeling - but he was the first dog Dan trained, and has been in 6? 7? National events, regionals, 3 WUSV and 1 FCI - always the highest American trained dog...he had a long vacation and I was really impressed with him at the WDC....but as powerful and aggressive as he is, Dan's 4 year old can walk him, he is totally trustworthy in the house with both kids..

As far as Tom - have had 3 litters from Tom sons.....only 2 pups from one litter were a bit too sharp....and pretty much pegged where it came from....the ****** litter was awesome....

{KristiM} Chuck produces the power and aggression....if there is higher level sharpness in a progeny, you have to look to the female side of the pedigree.....and see how it complements his pedigree....the Optika D litter was very sharp, very thin nerved from all discussions I have heard....mixing that with the Crok behind Chuck????? I would think it would go up a notch or two....

{hunter} Exactly - my civil female is VERY in tune with me - no handler aggression at all...heck, I have never needed electric and the prong is nothing more than insurance....she is the most biddable dog and easy to train....but she has a ton of aggression....Bengal same thing, and looks like Kougar, Kira and Kyra are similar....I haven't seen Kira, but Kougar is definitely a dog with indications of obvious social aggression - yet he is also a sweetheart! 


I think Handler aggression is a totally different subject.
Lee


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## KristiM

gagsd said:


> I know of two Tom Leefdaalhof g-sons that can be..... a bit difficult. The third one I know is nice.
> I have a Tom g-daughter, just 4 months. She is proving to be the most challenging puppy I have raised.
> Very low trigger, quick to act, and determined little devil.
> 
> And the dam's dam line... perhaps the Gildo?


That pretty much describes Havoc at 4 months! I spent the first 6 months I had him with my jaw on the floor lol. Here is a video of him jumping off a 5 foot dock at 4 months



 
Both of my boys are Tom g-sons and the only thing they have in common is they are both GSDs lol. The more I hear about Havoc's dam line the more I think his over the topness comes from her. 

Maybe what he exhibits isn't social aggression, just over the top dominance? Or just plain too much aggression? Knowing who he is as a dog I really don't believe his behaviors are fear based but ya never know I guess.


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## pets4life

kristi is your dog handler sensitive ?


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## KristiM

wolfstraum said:


> {KristiM} Chuck produces the power and aggression....if there is higher level sharpness in a progeny, you have to look to the female side of the pedigree.....and see how it complements his pedigree....the Optika D litter was very sharp, very thin nerved from all discussions I have heard....mixing that with the Crok behind Chuck????? I would think it would go up a notch or two....
> 
> Lee


Hmm great, power, aggression and thin nerves  lol. Ah well he is who he is. My first dog was so awesome that I figured I would get another one with some more umph. :rofl:


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## KristiM

pets4life said:


> kristi is your dog handler sensitive ?


:rofl: NO. He is not. He has gotten better as he has aged, but especially as a puppy I would have injured him before a correction got through to him. He can be VERY responsive, and with most things where I have used positive reinforcement he is super quick and willing. But if he don't wanna he doesn't. I use the e collar now for our problem areas and it has been a very good tool for us.


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## wolfstraum

KristiM said:


> Hmm great, power, aggression and thin nerves  lol. Ah well he is who he is. My first dog was so awesome that I figured I would get another one with some more umph. :rofl:


I was not commenting on your dog's nerves as I have not seen him and know nothing about him - but on what MIGHT be coming forward and manifesting it self a bit differently from the Chuck pups I know.....

LOL He should certainly have a good bit of "umph"!!

Lee


----------



## KristiM

wolfstraum said:


> I was not commenting on your dog's nerves as I have not seen him and know nothing about him - but on what MIGHT be coming forward and manifesting it self a bit differently from the Chuck pups I know.....
> 
> LOL He should certainly have a good bit of "umph"!!
> 
> Lee


Lol no lack of "umph" in this dog!!!

Not to totally derail this thread but now I'm super curious what the other chuck pups you have known were like? When I spoke with Dan before I got havoc he said that axel was a super nice puppy, lots of drive, a little more on the serious side and showed quite a bit of territorial behaviour for his age. He did sound quite similar to what havoc is showing, havoc maybe being a bit more "sharp." It's hard I say what havoc truly exhibits since I quit schutzhund when he was 8 or 9 months old.

I'm kind of surprised chuck hasn't been bred more considering all he has accomplished.


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## RocketDog

This thread is very interesting for us "less educated". 

Carry on, please!


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## hunterisgreat

RocketDog said:


> This thread is very interesting for us "less educated".
> 
> Carry on, please!


What do you want to know?


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## pets4life

wolf i need to ask you, you saw UFO yourself do you think he produced social aggession or did he have social aggression?


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## RocketDog

hunterisgreat said:


> What do you want to know?


Everything!


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## lhczth

KristiM said:


> Im just curious about what dogs on the dams damline would be the issue? I believe I read on here that belschick Von eicken-bruche was known as being rather nasty. Optikas dusty is line bred 2-3 on him. Is that where his potential "extra temperament" may come from. I do find him a little over the top, but not in a nervy way, in an overly dominant way. Not directed at me... Just everyone else.


Belschik had very high social aggression and was also what would be called "rank". I have talked to people that knew him personally and he could be a bit scary to handle. He was an old dog when I bred to him, but he was very approachable. He also still had an air of superiority about him. You knew and he knew he was something special. I bred him to a bitch that also had high social aggression, was very dominant, but would have never ever thought about biting me. From that litter, Navarre has social aggression, but not the extent that his father had and, like his mother, would NEVER EVER think about biting his handler. He is social and approachable, but his intensity either makes people uncomfortable or makes them go "wow". Vala does not have the social aggression, IMO, anywhere close to what was found in her mother, father or brother. She is civil (to go along with the topic). Where I got the strong social aggression again was in the next generation.


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## KristiM

lhczth said:


> Belschik had very high social aggression and was also what would be called "rank". I have talked to people that knew him personally and he could be a bit scary to handle. He was an old dog when I bred to him, but he was very approachable. He also still had an air of superiority about him. You knew and he knew he was something special. I bred him to a bitch that also had high social aggression, was very dominant, but would have never ever thought about biting me. From that litter, Navarre has social aggression, but not the extent that his father had and, like his mother, would NEVER EVER think about biting his handler. He is social and approachable, but his intensity either makes people uncomfortable or makes them go "wow". Vala does not have the social aggression, IMO, anywhere close to what was found in her mother, father or brother. She is civil (to go along with the topic). Where I got the strong social aggression again was in the next generation.


Now I remember it was you who had mentioned Belschick on another thread What you describe sounds very much like my dog, very, very intense (which personally I prefer a bit of a "lighter" dog esp in work) he does tend to make people uncomfortable with how intense he is. Also very, very dominant (not to me but everyone else.) I'm curious about where "nerves" come into play with a dog like this? I know lots of people seem to believe that a lot of the behaviors I talk about with Havoc are just weak nerves (obviously not being able to SEE the dog plays a huge role in assumptions) but are dogs like this naturally a bit on the nervy side? Or is it just dominance, and aggression?


----------



## hunterisgreat

KristiM said:


> Now I remember it was you who had mentioned Belschick on another thread What you describe sounds very much like my dog, very, very intense (which personally I prefer a bit of a "lighter" dog esp in work) he does tend to make people uncomfortable with how intense he is. Also very, very dominant (not to me but everyone else.) I'm curious about where "nerves" come into play with a dog like this? I know lots of people seem to believe that a lot of the behaviors I talk about with Havoc are just weak nerves (obviously not being able to SEE the dog plays a huge role in assumptions) but are dogs like this naturally a bit on the nervy side? Or is it just dominance, and aggression?


You must be careful, as I have found in the dog world as opposed to say, my work field, many of the standard words lack clear definition.. compounded with that they describe intangible things... and what is meant when a word is used changes anywhere from subtly to dramatically from person to person. This greatly hinders communication. The words I see people struggle to *clearly* align on a single meaning are: *nerve*, defensive drive, aggression, dominance. 

So my point is what one person would call "weak nerves", one might call "natural suspicion", or "sharpness", or "civil aggression", or "social aggression", or "aloofness".

If I told you Jäger growls at any men who walk up to us, you could fairly conclude that he is fear aggressive and unconfident just as fairly as you could conclude that he is highly dominant with high suspicion and has high civil & social aggression. In either case I haven't given nearly enough information (and I don't believe I could give enough purely with the written word or even a video.. one must actually observe the dog) to make a fair assessment

Only you, through training and meticulous analysis of your dog, coupled with an honest ability to put egos down as much as is possible and say "am I really objectively and unbiasedly analyzing my dog", will be able to determine your dogs makeup. When you find yourself being able to predict his reactions to the world with a high degree of reliability then you probably are on target with the assessment. When you have many "I didn't think he'd do that", or "He's never done that before" moments, then its time to go back to the drawing board and see where you judged incorrectly.


----------



## KristiM

hunterisgreat said:


> You must be careful, as I have found in the dog world as opposed to say, my work field, many of the standard words lack clear definition.. compounded with that they describe intangible things... and what is meant when a word is used changes anywhere from subtly to dramatically from person to person. This greatly hinders communication. The words I see people struggle to *clearly* align on a single meaning are: *nerve*, defensive drive, aggression, dominance.
> 
> So my point is what one person would call "weak nerves", one might call "natural suspicion", or "sharpness", or "civil aggression", or "social aggression", or "aloofness".
> 
> If I told you Jäger growls at any men who walk up to us, you could fairly conclude that he is fear aggressive and unconfident just as fairly as you could conclude that he is highly dominant with high suspicion and has high civil & social aggression. In either case I haven't given nearly enough information (and I don't believe I could give enough purely with the written word or even a video.. one must actually observe the dog) to make a fair assessment
> 
> Only you, through training and meticulous analysis of your dog, coupled with an honest ability to put egos down as much as is possible and say "am I really objectively and unbiasedly analyzing my dog", will be able to determine your dogs makeup. When you find yourself being able to predict his reactions to the world with a high degree of reliability then you probably are on target with the assessment. When you have many "I didn't think he'd do that", or "He's never done that before" moments, then its time to go back to the drawing board and see where you judged incorrectly.


Great post! I really like the way you talk about predictability and I think it is so true! I once owned a truly nervy border collie and I NEVER knew how he would react to a situation, despite many years of training and working with dogs.


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## Vandal

There have always been GSDs with social aggression and years ago, many more than there are now. It is a required component of fight drive but since so many now seem to lack the basic understanding of what a GSD is supposed to be, ( and some will argue there is no such thing as fight drive), there are topics like the one mentioned on the PDB, questioning why anyone would breed for it. The ignorance in that question is amazing. 

Social aggression is not trained and it can be a case where SchH does not put it on display at all. Not the way most of the training is conducted now anyway. Of course, you have to have the nerves to go with this trait, as I have seen dogs who want to protect their person and property and are not accepting of strangers , yet lack the heart and nerve to really follow through when necessary. Mostly, those dogs are defending themselves.

Social aggression, most have not seen, even if they think they have. There is a CLEAR desire in the dog to protect his handler. It is quite obvious and is not "self defense". The property of the handler is also off limits but these dogs can and are VERY good with members of their own family. IMO, this is a part of all of it. The intense bond is part of the protectiveness. The ones I have and do own, are extremely affectionate with me, very good with children and would never dream of biting me. 

Civil is maybe what Lee said and goes hand in hand with social aggression. These are dogs who will protect without the benefit of training. It is in their genetics and when the rest is there, have the heart and nerve to take on a man, not just a sleeve. 
Most people, believe a dog must be trained to protect. That is just hog wash, although it may be a case soon where that will be required, since so many people do not seem to want, nor do they understand this part of a GSD. A GSD was always known as a dog who would protect. There were not people everywhere training SchH, so, that reputation did not just come from there.

Also, it is extremely important that these dogs do not end up with people who over-react to every little thing. Almost always, it is a case where they show protective tendencies early in their development and this is where living with the right handler becomes very important. They mature in ways that few understand now, since many bloodlines behave like puppies well into their second year. The SA pups I have raised, show protectiveness early and tend to "mellow out" with age. It is just about opposite of what most people are now experiencing with their GSDs. 

In that regard, what Hunter just said absolutely applies. Everyone who has trained one dog suddenly becomes an "expert" and they toss out these definitions without experience or knowledge.


----------



## KristiM

Thanks for the posts! I was seriously starting to doubt myself and general logic because of some of the posts on this forum. Havoc showed protectiveness and lots of territorial behaviour early. According to many that is ALWAYS a sign of an insecure dog, which is just not what he is. I was starting to get very confused, I know to take every opinion with a grain of salt but there is an overwhelming amount of people that insist what I have is an insecure dog. 

On the flip side I could describe Odin and everyone would say he has a perfect temperament and nerves but I KNOW that as nice of a dog as he is when the chips are down, the confidence isn't there. (Disclaimer, Odin is still the greatest dog in the world!)


----------



## lhczth

KristiM said:


> Now I remember it was you who had mentioned Belschick on another thread What you describe sounds very much like my dog, very, very intense (which personally I prefer a bit of a "lighter" dog esp in work) he does tend to make people uncomfortable with how intense he is. Also very, very dominant (not to me but everyone else.) I'm curious about where "nerves" come into play with a dog like this? I know lots of people seem to believe that a lot of the behaviors I talk about with Havoc are just weak nerves (obviously not being able to SEE the dog plays a huge role in assumptions) but are dogs like this naturally a bit on the nervy side? Or is it just dominance, and aggression?


IMO nerves would be a separate component as Anne, I believe, alludes to in her post. No, dogs with high social aggression are not naturally on the nervy side. I think dominance does play a part since the dogs I have owned were also very dominant. They also had very high fight drive (something else Anne talks about in her post). 

Unlike Anne I haven't seen as many of these dogs or maybe I just didn't recognize them for what they were at the time. Of course a few dogs do stand out in my mind. Brawnson for one and another was a dog called Smudge von Brumbly. 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=736399 Both of these dogs were also very civil. 

The dogs I have owned tended to be social when young, but on their terms. As they matured they became aloof. Not aloof like some people use the word. They didn't avoid people, they just didn't/don't care. I also had/have to watch them because they would/will push people to see if they can invoke a reaction. These dogs have also been civil and none were reactive/nervy.


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## KristiM

lhczth said:


> The dogs I have owned tended to be social when young, but on their terms. As they matured they became aloof. Not aloof like some people use the word. They didn't avoid people, they just didn't/don't care. I also had/have to watch them because they would/will push people to see if they can invoke a reaction. These dogs have also been civil and none were reactive/nervy.


This is what I am talking about with having to "manage" my dog. He WILL push people and I personally am not a huge fan of that. I understand that it is part of the breed and its really not a HUGE deal as I always watch my dogs with strangers because you just never know what someone might try to pull. But it makes ME a little uncomfortable to watch havoc push someone he doesn't know like that. I also think that if I made a big deal out of it or allowed havoc to walk all over everyone he met, like a lot of inexperienced people would, I would have some issues.


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## KristiM

Ok, one more question Are nerves and confidence very similar in their definitions? 

(I know that people will have differing opinions but to me they seem to be very similar in definition?)


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## wolfstraum

There is a common misconception that when a dog shows any aggression or "defense" as many label it, the dog is in fear and protecting itself...... :hammer: 

There are too many nuances to behavior to label aggression with one rubber stamp....

Lee


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## gagsd

I think "nerves" has such a negative connotation to most people.

But I sometimes use it just as a descriptive. A "thin nerved" dog is more like a Thoroughbred horse.... easily stimulated by a leaf blowing or a bag in the wind. Can be ridden with a very light hand and aids.

Too "thick" of nerves and you end up with an old plodding school horse that doesn't respond to anything. Kick the sides off of him and he barely moves.


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## KristiM

gagsd said:


> I think "nerves" has such a negative connotation to most people.
> 
> But I sometimes use it just as a descriptive. A "thin nerved" dog is more like a Thoroughbred horse.... easily stimulated by a leaf blowing or a bag in the wind. Can be ridden with a very light hand and aids.
> 
> Too "thick" of nerves and you end up with an old plodding school horse that doesn't respond to anything. Kick the sides off of him and he barely moves.


I thought that was more along the lines of low threshold vs high threshold? I always thought nerves had more to do with HOW the dogs reacts vs when he reacts. Or are thresholds and nerves more similar than nerves and confidence?


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## gagsd

KristiM said:


> I thought that was more along the lines of low threshold vs high threshold? I always thought nerves had more to do with HOW the dogs reacts vs when he reacts. Or are thresholds and nerves more similar than nerves and confidence?


I don't know. 
I guess that is why it is better to describe what we see, rather than label behaviors.


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## gagsd

I considered Ari a medium-high threshold dog. If someone eyeballs him in a challenging manner, he will stand up, give strong eye contact, then lean forward, then escalate .... or de-escalate if the person "gives."
His brother will immediately offer aggression.

Others have told me they consider him low threshold because all it takes is a stare.
<shrug>


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## KristiM

To me that would be describing thresholds and possibly nerves? Both dogs react at the same threshold? Different reactions, nerves? 

(The reason I ask is I am looking for different ways to describe good nerves. I am strongly considering a working line Aussie for my next dog and when you talk about nerves to non gsd people you get a blank stare lol. I have met several working line Aussies with IMO weak nerves, so I want I make sure I am asking in a way that I get the right answers. I know that has nothing to do with this thread but I think the question is still relevant.)


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## gagsd

Totally OT.... but cool! My first dog was a working Aussie. Sink-or-swim intro into dog-owning. Most of the working Aussies I have met are pretty intense and quick to react.


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## KristiM

Lol I know totally OT my Aussie was half show half working, she was awesome! I really miss having a spunky lil bunny butt running around! It won't be for several years but I am going to start researching now I have met some that were blow your socks off amazing and some that were overly nervy. (I think a little nervy is pretty common for a lot of the working herding lines.) I want a dog that can compete at the higher levels of agility AND be an awesome companion If my GSDs were 30 pounds lighter they could do it lol. 


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> I considered Ari a medium-high threshold dog. If someone eyeballs him in a challenging manner, he will stand up, give strong eye contact, then lean forward, then escalate .... or de-escalate if the person "gives."
> His brother will immediately offer aggression.
> 
> Others have told me they consider him low threshold because all it takes is a stare.
> <shrug>


In my mind, locking eyes *should* trigger a response. Thats the first step of aggression. just a glancing look should not, but prolonged staring should. The dog that doesn't react to prolonged staring is not socially/civil aggressive enough and they are submitting/going into avoidance at the challenge, or are just so far bred away from being aggressive/open to challenging a human that they just don't respond to posture from a human.


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## gagsd

hunterisgreat said:


> In my mind, locking eyes *should* trigger a response. Thats the first step of aggression. just a glancing look should not, but prolonged staring should. The dog that doesn't react to prolonged staring is not socially/civil aggressive enough and they are submitting/going into avoidance at the challenge, or are just so far bred away from being aggressive/open to challenging a human that they just don't respond to posture from a human.


I agree. I also prefer Ari's slower escalation to his brother's immediate fury. However, Ari has had a lot more training so perhaps that is it?

I have seen dogs that, when confronted in this manner; just look back, or wag tail, or sniff the ground, get up and look around, and even hide behind the handler. 
Just from a hard stare.
(and I am talking about adult dogs' reactions, not puppies.)


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## Vandal

> Others have told me they consider him low threshold because all it takes is a stare.
> <shrug>


Pffft.....contrary to popular belief, dogs are animals. Ever watch Natural Geographic? Or the behavior of two dogs before they fight? A stare is certainly provocation. I can get even the most "prey, ( usually play), driven dog to light up by staring at them.


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## Lilie

wolfstraum said:


> There is a common misconception that when a dog shows any aggression or "defense" as many label it, the dog is in fear and protecting itself...... :hammer:
> 
> There are too many nuances to behavior to label aggression with one rubber stamp....
> 
> Lee


I think this is true to a point. I don't think enough information is provided to describe the scenario. 

If I were to have the UPS man walk down my drive (to my door) my dogs will bark. The closer to the house the more aggressive the bark. At that point, that tells me nothing about the dog's aggression levels. If the same UPS man walks past my house and walks directly to the fence where the dogs are, THEN what my dogs do tells me what type of aggression they are exhibiting. 

To say my young dog was barking at the UPS man, doesn't say enough about the dog's behavior to form an opinion on the dog's reaction to the UPS man.


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## Jack's Dad

Vandal said:


> Pffft.....contrary to popular belief, dogs are animals.


Ha, not so. If you venture outside of breeding,training and sports threads, you will realize they actually are not animals.


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## Vandal

> Ha, not so. If you venture outside of breeding,training and sports threads, you will realize they actually are not animals.


I tend to avoid those threads but since I have a boarding kennel here, I am forced to confront that mentality on a regular basis. It is so bad here in Los Angeles, I am now getting calls from people who are desperate to find a place where their dogs are kept in dog runs instead of turned out with 40 other dogs.
Seems like the pendulum is swinging back in the right direction but not NEARLY fast enough. What I offer as far as animal care is now a novelty but a necessary one for people who have certain kinds of dogs, or , who want their dog to stay with someone with my experience. More and more, I am boarding police service dogs as well, since they certainly do not want their dogs turned out with the herd of "fur babies".


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> I agree. I also prefer Ari's slower escalation to his brother's immediate fury. However, Ari has had a lot more training so perhaps that is it?
> 
> I have seen dogs that, when confronted in this manner; just look back, or wag tail, or sniff the ground, get up and look around, and even hide behind the handler.
> Just from a hard stare.
> (and I am talking about adult dogs' reactions, not puppies.)


I don't like immediate fury either, as that dog is skipping or rushing through the ritual of intimidation and progression of aggression. The whole point of the posturing is to decide who is more "the wrong one to mess with". All these steps (eyes->squaring off and looking bigger->noise->closing the distance->initial physical contact->actual fighting) are all designed to avoid actual fighting as this is advantageous for both parties. And pretty much all animals do this. 

Consider people.. someone stares at you from across a bar. You look away and drink your drink, look back and they have maintained the stare. You *will* now feel a threat from this person. You have two options: avoidance or countering. You either laugh and talk to your friend "haha... this weird guy is staring at me", or you counter... stare back, maybe push away from the bar, square your shoulders.. he has the same two options. The next step he counters. You now have to up the ante or avoid. You counter again with noise "Hey, what the **** is your problem with me". He counters with noise back, and begins closing distance to you. You will then have initial non-fighting contact... people will get so close into each other's face that they are rubbing shoulders, or they will shove. After a shove or two, fists are thrown. Dog exchanges are identical save the methods of each step are obviously different.

I don't think its training, I think its just the nature of that dog to progress through much faster... maybe to make his counter more likely to turn his opponent, maybe b/c insecurity keeps him from calmly performing the "ritual".. who knows


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## Zisso

So just out of curiosity here...
My girl would not hesitate to bite a person if I was being threatened in her presence. Like if I was accosted or about to get mugged, she would bite the guy. Does that mean she is civil?

My bo would bark but I am not sure of he would bite. I doubt he would.


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## hunterisgreat

Zisso said:


> So just out of curiosity here...
> My girl would not hesitate to bite a person if I was being threatened in her presence. Like if I was accosted or about to get mugged, she would bite the guy. Does that mean she is civil?
> 
> My bo would bark but I am not sure of he would bite. I doubt he would.


What makes you sure? Just curious.


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## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> IMO nerves would be a separate component as Anne, I believe, alludes to in her post. No, dogs with high social aggression are not naturally on the nervy side. I think dominance does play a part since the dogs I have owned were also very dominant. They also had very high fight drive (something else Anne talks about in her post).
> 
> Unlike Anne I haven't seen as many of these dogs or maybe I just didn't recognize them for what they were at the time. Of course a few dogs do stand out in my mind. Brawnson for one and another was a dog called* Smudge von Brumbly*.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=736399 Both of these dogs were also very civil.
> 
> The dogs I have owned tended to be social when young, but on their terms. As they matured they became aloof. Not aloof like some people use the word. They didn't avoid people, they just didn't/don't care. I also had/have to watch them because they would/will push people to see if they can invoke a reaction. These dogs have also been civil and none were reactive/nervy.


Smudge was Brian H's dog? He told me that Karlo reminded him of Smudge....and that he doesn't see dogs like that very often anymore.


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## x11

Zisso said:


> So just out of curiosity here...
> My girl would not hesitate to bite a person if I was being threatened in her presence. Like if I was accosted or about to get mugged, she would bite the guy. Does that mean she is civil?
> 
> My bo would bark but I am not sure of he would bite. I doubt he would.


 
hasn't this belief gone down as one of the greater myths in dogdom. 

hope ya never have the belief tested and you rely on it to be true.


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> hasn't this belief gone down as one of the greater myths in dogdom.
> 
> hope ya never have the belief tested and you rely on it to be true.


Yeah... but people still say it.

Now Katya, I know she will bite if someone attacked me, because she has bitten someone who attacked me lol.


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## pets4life

vandal but what if our dog is great in personal protection but just not a nasty dog in public but will be on command and will bite for real? Mine doesnt act aggressive unless i ask her to? Or unless its terrirtoral aggression>? mine can be really nasty around the fence? but i never considered mine to be a social aggressive dog at all. But she will fire up on anyone i tell her to and probably bite them even a kid if i asked her to. But shes not aggressive in public she will let anyone pet her pretty much but i socialized the crap out of her shes met 100s of people. I just wanted a dog i could take everywhere but would turn on like switch a switch also and turn serious.


Just in public people will pet my dog sometimes off leash if she walks past i can't have a dog that will snap or take a chunk out of them lol Most of the time she will ignore their pets and keep walking which is what i like i just dont want a law suit or a liability dog i know shes safe. They can turn her on tho if they start acting aggressive towards us they could easily get her to get aggressive but still i didnt consider her social aggressive cause of that.

I never heard her snarl or bark at people unless they try to do something stupid like try to get in her fence without permission or go near her crate or car or in protection. But she seems to have a high high tollerance for people when shes off leash and free walking around in public. With kids being goofy or adults who dont know how to act properly. People running around and being stupid dont seem to anger her.


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## hunterisgreat

pets4life said:


> vandal but what if our dog is great in personal protection but just not a nasty dog in public but will be on command and will bite for real? Mine doesnt act aggressive unless i ask her to? Or unless its terrirtoral aggression>? mine can be really nasty around the fence? but i never considered mine to be a social aggressive dog at all. But she will fire up on anyone i tell her to and probably bite them even a kid if i asked her to. But shes not aggressive in public she will let anyone pet her pretty much but i socialized the crap out of her shes met 100s of people. I just wanted a dog i could take everywhere but would turn on like switch a switch also and turn serious.
> 
> 
> Just in public people will pet my dog sometimes off leash if she walks past i can't have a dog that will snap or take a chunk out of them lol Most of the time she will ignore their pets and keep walking which is what i like i just dont want a law suit or a liability dog i know shes safe.


What you are describing is just an unstable dog


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## pets4life

hunter what is? the one that will snap or take a chunk out of a stranger walking up to them? I always thought that was a social aggressive dog lol


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## hunterisgreat

pets4life said:


> hunter what is? the one that will snap or take a chunk out of a stranger walking up to them? I always thought that was a social aggressive dog lol


Yes. Assuming the stranger is passive


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## pets4life

What do most socially aggressive dogs do when a stranger just walks up and puts his hands on them? do they growl usually? My dog just ignores it like there is nothing there. like she can't feel it.


My friends filas will foam at the mouth and probably nip.


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## onyx'girl

My three would not take kindly to a stranger putting hands on them. They would warning growl and possibly bite. IF they can do the first greeting, then they'd probably be ok, depending on the 'stranger'.


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## gagsd

I had a lady worm between 4 of us who were standing around talking at a dog show, and lean down and hug/kiss Ari in the face. He had been napping within our "circle." Ari looked at the lady, deemed her nuts and that was that. No aggression. I, on the other hand, nearly had a heart attack.

Another day at training... Ari in long down. I was hiding in the blind. Ari sits up. Club member playing judge walked forcefully toward him, arm outstretched, and said "NO, Platz." Which is what I would have done. But club member was not me. Ari stood up and leaned forward with The Look. Club member turned and walked away telling me to get my own dog. I giggled all of the way home that day.


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## lhczth

Nike was not aggressive in a social situation. I took her to trials, stayed in hotels, took her to auctions and she would hang out with groups of friends with their kids. She was not super social as a young dog, but she also wasn't a loose canon. She just didn't care. Only person she ever hated was my vet and you didn't ever walk into my house uninvited. She had little respect for anyone but me as a friend found out when he tried to handle her for obedience and tracking titles. 

Deja is actually more social, but I have to watch her more. She likes to push people and can be a bit scary to play ball/tug with (very intense). She also has traveled all over with me and, again, I don't worry about her around people. She wasn't too happy with her chiropractor last time, but unlike her grandmother and mother, she has yet to smile at him when he leans over her to adjust her neck. 

The other dogs I knew also were fine as adults around people and groups of people. These dogs are not nasty, dangerous or unpredictable growling at stupid people or giving unprovoked bites.


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## gagsd

Lisa, something interesting... Ari is very approachable, but acts as if people do not exist in Ari-world unless they have a ball, treat, etc.
However, I think he would have left me for Jeff L. at Indy. He really <liked> Jeff. It was odd, but interesting.


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## GrammaD

wolfstraum said:


> There is a common misconception that when a dog shows any aggression or "defense" as many label it, the dog is in fear and protecting itself...... :hammer:
> 
> There are too many nuances to behavior to label aggression with one rubber stamp....
> 
> Lee


I am curious about this because I had an incident with Huxley that I assumed was a fear response and I became concerned that he was a "nerve bag" and I would need to carefully increase his social opportunities, which I have been doing assiduously. 

We were out for our nightly walk and a man kind of popped around the corner of the block ahead- Huxley saw him and he came out front of me instead of staying at heel and he kind of crouched (like the pre-pounce crouch when he plays) but he growled. Very low and rumbly and hackled a little while watching the guy. Ears forward, he leaned against the lead which is weird because he is not normally a puller, and tail up and still. 

Is this what social aggression looks like? Or was this, as I assumed, a fear response? He is NOT a working line dog, ASLxWGSL, so part of my assumption is based on his lineage. 

Plus he's a baby. 10 months old. So I was thinking "fear period" type of stuff.

Just curious. Thanks.


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## gagsd

Aggression is not just fear or social.... My Anik dog has aggression, meets perceived threats quickly. Most of mine have been protective and/or territorial. But social aggression is something different and rare. IMO. I think my Ari has a touch of it, and out of all the dogs I have had hands on, he is the only one that I think may.


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## KristiM

Both of my dogs are fine with people touching them. It's kind of funny I was just out training with a few people I have never trained with before, they were asking about sable colour so I invited them to come up close and look at the tipping etc on havoc. Havoc was fine, they were definitely not a threat but neither of them would come real close to him. I kind of just figured maybe they were a little worried about GSDs but then i brought Odin out, and after doing a few runs they both went up and pet him It was pretty obvious that they stayed out of havoc's bubble just because he gives off that "vibe" where as Odin is super chill and easy to approach. People that don't know dogs aren't as likely to sense a dogs bubble. Lots of people when I am out hiking just reach out and pet havoc. If they are being relatively friendly I can see his expression soften the moment he decides they are friendly. He ignores them after that point. If people maintain eye contact he escalates just like gagsd describes her dog.

I expect that my dogs are ok with being "pet" by strangers. They are in so many situations where people just do it, that if they acted nasty every time it happened I wouldn't be able to bring them anywhere! That being said if they are on leash and people ask I say no, neither dogs are nuts about being touched by strangers so I never force it on them. If they are off leash and people ask I say that they are welcome to invite my dogs to say hi to them, which both of them always ignore People always look so sad when they get the cold shoulder lol. 


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## BlackthornGSD

Anne's comments linked protectiveness with social aggression. But I have had some dogs who were protective without having very high social aggression. 

For example, my first GSD Thorn was very social and comfortable in public and he would show now aggression if I was walking him around or through a crowd. But if I went to a park and sat and read a book, he would go "on duty"--as long as people walked past me and didn't turn and watch me or approach, he would ignore them. But if someone turned to walk toward me, he'd growl, gradually increasing his reaction the more intently the person watched me and the closer the person approached. He started doing this on his own when he was maybe 18 months old, before I ever started doing bitework training with him. He showed similar guarding instincts all of his life. (This was my Am-bred GSD who went on to get his sch3.)

I knew Bodo v Tiekerhook after he came to the US as an older dog--he was a Fero son. I'd say he had social aggression, for sure--but he was also very, very stable (and independent!). It would have been interesting to see what he was like if he was with an owner who he had a strong bond with.


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## Vandal

> He really <liked> Jeff. It was odd, but interesting



Nope, that's not odd. Jeff had that affect on one of my more protective /aggressive dogs when he was out here visiting. They were buddies within a few seconds. Jeff has no fear and he genuinely likes dogs. Dogs do not miss this and feel comfortable with the very few people who are like this. It is that "feel" that people talk about but few actually have.


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## BlackthornGSD

GrammaD said:


> I am curious about this because I had an incident with Huxley that I assumed was a fear response and I became concerned that he was a "nerve bag" and I would need to carefully increase his social opportunities, which I have been doing assiduously.
> 
> We were out for our nightly walk and a man kind of popped around the corner of the block ahead- Huxley saw him and he came out front of me instead of staying at heel and he kind of crouched (like the pre-pounce crouch when he plays) but he growled. Very low and rumbly and hackled a little while watching the guy. Ears forward, he leaned against the lead which is weird because he is not normally a puller, and tail up and still.
> 
> Is this what social aggression looks like? Or was this, as I assumed, a fear response? He is NOT a working line dog, ASLxWGSL, so part of my assumption is based on his lineage.
> 
> Plus he's a baby. 10 months old. So I was thinking "fear period" type of stuff.
> 
> Just curious. Thanks.


I'd say that's a good, confident reaction showing good instincts and awareness of what's not normal behavior from someone in his environment. Nothing to do with social aggression.


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## Vandal

> Anne's comments linked protectiveness with social aggression. But I have had some dogs who were protective without having very high social aggression.


The problem is, there are two explanations of Social Aggression, (That I have seen anyway), that people refer to. I am not talking about dominate or rank dogs, as one definition seems to imply. What do you think of as "Social Aggression" Christine?


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## Vandal

If someone tries to pet one of my dogs without asking, they will have a bigger problem on their hands than a bite. That would be ME.


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## Liesje

I'm trying to follow this thread but still struggling, lol. I *thought* that a socially aggressive dog would step up if strangers approached the handler or property but now I am reading about dogs that are totally neutral when people try to pet them but have high social aggression? I don't think any of my GSDs have been socially aggressive so I'm trying to learn this, maybe Lisa can show me this weekend. 

Nikon is protective of me but I don't know that I'd call him socially aggressive. I think he's more reactive than that, if that makes sense, and that he actually has a very high threshold for biting even though he will alert to something (stiffen, stare) much sooner than any of my other dogs, but I think he's usually waiting for the person or dog to make the first move and then he'll go from there. He will step up, stiffen, growl, bark, etc but it's almost all bluff I think, which is fine because there have been many times where he has appropriately stiffened and grumbled but *not* bit and I didn't want him to bite, I've yet to be in a situation other than protection work and double blind protection simulation where I've needed him to bite someone. This one time a neighbor tried to grab Nikon's collar (without any proper introduction), Nikon kind flipped out barking at him. My neighbor kicked Nikon but Nikon never actually bit him.


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## KristiM

Vandal said:


> If someone tries to pet one of my dogs without asking, they will have a bigger problem on their hands than a bite. That would be ME.


Lol, I gave up a looong time ago on that! People are the worst when I'm hiking, there I can kind of see it, the dogs are off leash. What blows my mind is when people walk up and pet my dogs at agility trials! They are supposed to be dog people, they should know better!


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## onyx'girl

My dogs are a bit too intimidating to have strangers willingly come up to pet them. KristiM you are fortunate that your dogs will comply with it. I have to manage my dogs so that they are never placed in those scenarios.


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> The problem is, there are two explanations of Social Aggression, (That I have seen anyway), that people refer to. I am not talking about dominate or rank dogs, as one definition seems to imply. What do you think of as "Social Aggression" Christine?


I think of "social aggression" as dogs with a strong sense of self and a willingness to be aggressive for dominance/rank reasons. I think, too, that it should have a tie in to fight drive.

But I have seen a few dogs who I think were high in social aggression who were not protective of anything other than themselves or their ball/sleeve/toy--the 3 examples I am thinking of were older dogs who had changed owners late in life and who didn't have much sense of partnership with their new owners. They were often hard dogs who had been trained with harsh methods and who didn't live as pets or companions. So, in their new homes they lived as kennel dogs--they might have liked the new owner, but there was no special relationship and not much inclination to protect them. So, this was SA without protectiveness.

I suspect that if you did have a good relationship with a dog like this, one with high SA, that you would fall under their definition of "theirs" and they'd be likely to guard and be protective.


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## Vandal

*Social aggression*

"Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans. As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.
Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.
This form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler so that accidents are prevented.
Socially aggressive dogs have an urge to be aggressive towards strangers. This can be controlled and the dog can be taught to tolerate strangers. However, the dog will not become a social or friendly dog with strangers, no matter what type of behavior modification is attempted. The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. (At that point the person is no longer a stranger but an integrated pack member).
The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands. Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts."

*Taken from Armin Winkler's site*. 
These are views of not just Armin, I talked to Helmut Raiser and many other older, very knowledgable dog people ...not very many "real" dog people left but with a few very small exceptions, this is exactly as I have known Social Aggresion in some of my own dogs.


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## KristiM

Liesje said:


> I'm trying to follow this thread but still struggling, lol. I *thought* that a socially aggressive dog would step up if strangers approached the handler or property but now I am reading about dogs that are totally neutral when people try to pet them but have high social aggression? I don't think any of my GSDs have been socially aggressive so I'm trying to learn this, maybe Lisa can show me this weekend. Nikon is protective of me but I don't know that I'd call him socially aggressive. I think he's more reactive than that, if that makes sense, and that he actually has a very high threshold for biting (he will step up, stiffen, growl, bark, etc but it's almost all bluff I think, which is fine because there have been many times where he has appropriately stiffened and grumbled but *not* bit and I didn't want him to bite, I've yet to be in a situation other than protection work and double blind protection simulation where I've needed him to bite someone).


When havoc sees a new person he stares them down every time. If they maintain eye contact with him, he escalates. If they look away (which most people naturally do) he doesn't escalate. If they proceed to act friendly towards him he will to an extent drop the HARD stare and ignore them. Some people are dumb and maintain eye contact, and that's where we run into problems! I don't know if that type of behaviour fits into any definition of social aggression but he seeks out eye contact with everyone he sees. If they "submit" he remains aware of them but that's about it. 

Territory stuff is a whole different story and he will try to eat someone every time. He doesn't care if you are the nicest person in the world you will not go into his territory!


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## KristiM

onyx'girl said:


> My dogs are a bit too intimidating to have strangers willingly come up to pet them. KristiM you are fortunate that your dogs will comply with it. I have to manage my dogs so that they are never placed in those scenarios.


It certainly has not come easy with havoc! I can't even tell you how much time I have spent working on this! Reading his signals and more importantly reading people he is around BEFORE they interact with him. It sucks because I do have to be hyper vigilant when I am out with him and if a person looks a little iffy I have to have a very tight grip on the situation. If anything GSDs are versatile. I was told by several people that I would never be able to hike with havoc or do agility because he is just deep down a dog that's always itching to fight. I'm not gonna lie, I have had a few close calls. Thank god for VERY strong obedience.


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## Liesje

So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?


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## KristiM

Liesje said:


> So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?


I don't know? Havoc will stare everyone down whether I'm there or not (he is never in the care of anyone else.) if I want him to stop I have to give him some kind of incompatible command and I enforce that he listens. If you reached over my fence you would be missing an arm I don't think his obedience is strong enough that I could stop that, unless I could physically stop him. Maybe something I should be working on. (The work never ends!)


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## BlackthornGSD

Sounds like we're thinking of it similarly, Anne--just most examples of it I've seen in GSDs have not been dogs who were with an owner they were strongly bonded with.

Dogs that I've personally known who are like this:

Bodo v Tiekerhook
Casch v Saltzalblick
Arko ad Langen Furt Arko an der langen Furt
Cliff vom Schwedenbrunnen V Cliff vom Schwedenbrunnen
Cora v Granit Rose Cora von Granit Rose
Dorian vd Konigshohle

and a Gento vh Larwin son whose name I don't remember.

I should ask Armin about social aggression if I see him this weekend--that description above sure sounds like what he would say about his Giant Schnauzer males--they are definitely "not to be trifled with."

*And, actually, of the dogs listed... Bodo and Cora were probably the "lowest" in social aggression. Bodo was pretty neutral and didn't go around looking too much for trouble with people. He was mainly interested in whether that dog with you was female and was she in season. Cora was extremely protective/territorial and serious--not so much challenging to be around.


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## Jack's Dad

KristiM said:


> If you reached over my fence you would be missing an arm I don't think his obedience is strong enough that I could stop that, unless I could physically stop him. Maybe something I should be working on. (The work never ends!)


So what do you think that is Kristi? 
Social aggression, resource guarding, protection, FA or something else.
This thread is confusing for us amateurs.

Or maybe he is just being a jerk.


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## KristiM

Jack's Dad said:


> So what do you think that is Kristi?
> Social aggression, resource guarding, protection, FA or something else.
> This thread is confusing for us amateurs.
> 
> Or maybe he is just being a jerk.


I don't know lol! Is territorial aggression different? He could just be a jerk 

He does seem to have a VERY CONCRETE idea of what is his territory and WILL NOT tolerate people crossing that line. To me this is a huge pain, as this includes my van. I don't really think it is something that I can correct him out of, so all I do is manage it


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## Vandal

> Anne--just most examples of it I've seen in GSDs have not been dogs who were with an owner they were strongly bonded with.


 
That would be a problem and I think is the main reason people might think SA dogs are also Handler Aggressive. I know if one of my dogs changed homes, and one of the many idiots who think you yank/kick the dogs around before you bond with them, got a hold of them, the dogs would have suddenly been labeled handler aggressive. WHY NOT? They don't know the person and that person starts fighting with them. Dogs don't view corrections from strangers as corrections but for some reason, many people don't get that....not until they are bitten anyway. Come to think of it, they STILL don't get it, even after a few stitches. 

I had a dog here some years back that I talked about on other forums. He had been through a number of handlers before he came here. Socially aggressive and dominate but I took my time with him before I ever tried to correct him. He never bit me but the five people before me were more than a little intimidated by him and one of them was bitten. He was really a great dog but I had to first "detox" him , (from all the very bad handling before he got here), and then bond with him. That took much more time than most people would take but it certainly paid off. 

Anyway, like I said, a strong bond is essential but most of the dogs I am talking about I raised. So, I never had a problem with that. Pedro, the one I just talked about, was the only dog I have owned who had that tendency but I attribute that to what happened to him before he got here. If I had raised him from a pup, it would have been completely different with him. Even as it was, he became a very loyal dog and very bonded to me. He changed dramatically over the course of a couple of years and I became his person. That dog would have really protected me, I have no doubt . The people who think you can't tell that, have never owned these kinds of dogs. It is clear beyond a doubt.

The dogs you saw were all imported . That requires some real knowledge and feel but sadly, many of these dogs do not get hooked up with the right kind of people.


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## BlackthornGSD

If he is removed from the "territory" does the aggression stop and is he neutral to the person he was previously barking/growling at? Is he clear-headed as soon as he isn't guarding?

Fear aggression -- the dog is emotionally involved--the fear doesn't go away just by changing the situation (calling the dog out of the kennel/crate/vehicle). 

Resource guarding is bad when it is against the owner/family, but it has always been somewhat desirable in a protection dog as long as it is against strangers--see, for example, the object guard exercise in ringsport or KNPV. It's gotten a bad name in recent years because of shelter testing and language that doesn't distinguish between resource guarding against other dogs versus against strangers versus against family members.


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## Vandal

I view that as all the same thing. Territory falls under Social Aggression.


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## Vandal

> So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?


Well, people don't get close to my fence, or my car, without hearing about it. If they come closer when the dogs are warning them not to, I guess they "could" be bitten.


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## KristiM

BlackthornGSD said:


> If he is removed from the "territory" does the aggression stop and is he neutral to the person he was previously barking/growling at? Is he clear-headed as soon as he isn't guarding?


Ya it's like a light switch. I have had several instances where I am walking with someone and him to my van, he's fine, as soon as we get to the van he turns into a chupacabra! Lol. We walk 5 feet away from the van and that same person can pet him, no problems. (This particular experiment was done with someone he knows and is very familiar with dogs, professional dog trainer.)

One thing that I do find kind of weird/unnerving with the territtory stuff is that he won't bark and carry on, he will just go for someone. Don't know what that's all about?


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> I view that as all the same thing. Territory falls under Social Aggression.


Yes. 

I was asking Kristi about her boy---mainly because I suspect that he's totally clear and calms toward the stranger significantly as soon as he's out of his "territory" -- which for me shows very clearly that it's not fear aggression.


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## BlackthornGSD

KristiM said:


> Ya it's like a light switch. I have had several instances where I am walking with someone and him to my van, he's fine, as soon as we get to the van he turns into a chupacabra! Lol. We walk 5 feet away from the van and that same person can pet him, no problems. (This particular experiment was done with someone he knows and is very familiar with dogs, professional dog trainer.)
> 
> One thing that I do find kind of weird/unnerving with the territtory stuff is that he won't bark and carry on, he will just go for someone. Don't know what that's all about?


The going for someone without warning is, IMO, him being a jerk. Imagine if he were guarding a toy and did the same thing. Curious what Anne thinks.

My DDR girl Xita is super, super clear in her territory guarding--in kennel or crate or whelping room--absolutely guarding. Out of the space--no problems. And she absolutely distinguishes me from everyone else--doesn't guard at all from me.


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## pets4life

my dog is friendly to my friends but if i am not there she wont let them in my house or yard she will get extremly territorial until i am there nothing will change her mind 

so i guess maybe she does have social aggression lol also in the car she might grab a person if they reach in threw the window

she guards things like robocop but you take her away from the guarding object with the same person the aggression is gone


but if she has a bond with someone like my parents or something she will let them in but someone she doesnt know really well she acts like she would rather die than let them in


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## KristiM

Ya he is kind of a jerk My logic on it is that in his head he shouldn't have to escalate like he normally does since the "line" has been crossed and people should know better! Like I said he's a jerk


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## Vandal

I don't care for dogs who act without warning. Not at all. 

The simple solution is to use obedience to tell the dog how you expect him to behave BEFORE something happens in all of these situations. It is more difficult when these dogs are younger because maturity, ( and the right handling), tends to mellow things out, for the lack of a better way to put it.
Also, you have to be in control of YOURSELF. That means you can't be in these situations, with people around, when you are nervous or tense. You have to be calm, matter of fact and in control. I have found that the many idiots who wander America''s streets will, (for whatever reason), respect you and your dog when you tell them you are training him. If you simply ask them to go away, they will tell you all about how "talented" they are with animals. Those people are the ones the dogs ALWAYS want to bite...if I don't get 'em first anyway. lol. 

I have a friend who breeds some pretty serious dogs. SHE has nerves of steel. I remember years ago, one of the dogs she was training was the definition of what I posted above . Didn't likes strangers and would bite them if given the opportunity. She worked the dog in obedience and then took him to a supermarket and told him to down by the door. People would come out the door and want to pet the dog. "SURE" she would tell them, "go right ahead". They would pet the dog and leave happy. She never said to them, " oh no, he will BITE you". She never acted like she was even the tiniest bit concerned. That would have put the dog on alert. She stood there as relaxed as could be but the dog was under her control. Most people, do not have this kind of skill or control of themselves, ( or their dogs), but it is a great example of the way people should at least" try" to behave when they have these kinds of dogs. It is never a good idea to warn people either, since that creates tension and anxiety in them and the dogs can SEE IT. 

I am not saying to be so relaxed you are not ready to correct or manage the dog but you have to think about how YOU are feeling when you handle these kinds of dogs. You cannot fool the dogs, they know what you are feeling. If you are tense, it tells the dog that something is wrong. They will start to look for the reason you are upset. So, like I said, you have to be in full command of your own emotions when you work with these kinds of dogs.


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## Vandal

One more thing that I should have said about dogs who act without warning.....Most of the time, they are not being jerks. It is a case where they are reacting to something you are doing or feeling. Maybe a slight tightening of the leash because you are anticipating a problem. That is usually the culprit, ( and most people have no idea they are doing it), or it could be what I said above. You start to get tense because you know he might do something. The dogs sees it and acts.


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## KristiM

I agree, I don't like that he doesn't really give a universal "hey you, get away from my van" warning. I tell people to stay away from the van when I am loading and unloading. I am only working on the obedience around the van with a few dog savvy people. I still consider it a case of management though and I would hate to have to kill someone and hide them in the woods because my dog bit them (just kidding! In case anyone is offended by that.)

For the most part I act pretty relaxed, people pet him, its fine. If the person looks like it might be a problem I get a grip on my dog. I have gotten pretty good at reading people, if they look overly scared, I don't allow interaction, if they look overly cocky, same thing. It gets better every day (well not every day, some days its worse, but thats life.)


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## KristiM

Vandal said:


> One more thing that I should have said about dogs who act without warning.....Most of the time, they are not being jerks. It is a case where they are reacting to something you are doing or feeling. Maybe a slight tightening of the leash because you are anticipating a problem. That is usually the culprit, ( and most people have no idea they are doing it), or it could be what I said above. You start to get tense because you know he might do something. The dogs sees it and acts.


Yep, I will have to video what *I* am doing around the van. You are probably very right I have been instituting a lot more control with everything involving the van (only getting in and out when I say etc) and he has imporved already most likely becsause I am more confident of my control around the van. So often this stuff is a handler issue!


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## hunterisgreat

pets4life said:


> What do most socially aggressive dogs do when a stranger just walks up and puts his hands on them? do they growl usually? My dog just ignores it like there is nothing there. like she can't feel it.
> 
> 
> My friends filas will foam at the mouth and probably nip.


They will counter. Since touch is near the end of the process of posturing and aggression, contact back (nipping), or fighting is the logical response.


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## Liesje

Still trying to sort this out. I know very few GSDs that *won't* bark, lunge, snap, etc when someone approaches their vehicle, kennel, fence, front door, etc but I'm guessing the vast majority of these aren't all that socially aggressive, at least not in the more confident, assertive/forward way that we are talking about?


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## onyx'girl

Liesje said:


> Still trying to sort this out. I know very few GSDs that *won't* bark, lunge, snap, etc when someone approaches their vehicle, kennel, fence, front door, etc but I'm guessing the vast majority of these aren't all that socially aggressive, at least not in the more confident, assertive/forward way that we are talking about?


Karlo doesn't react when people walk by my van. IF they stick their hands inside, or try to pet him(he's crated with the back hatch open), then he will warning growl/snap at them. When people come to the door he'll investigate before going off....which is good for me because my other two dogs go off at a scent, car pulling in that they don't recognize or someone knocking. 
As far as social aggression with Karlo, I believe he has it in him, but won't 'act' on it unless he is provoked(which could mean someone he doesn't know coming up and putting hands on him)His 'acting' would be a warning growl first.


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## Liesje

What is the difference between a dog that is socially aggressive and a dog that is aloof and doesn't want to be handled/touched by a stranger? From Armin's definition I get that a socially aggressive dog is going to act unless someone commands him not to? For me a GSD should act on provocation, just as a general breed trait, but if the breed is lacking in social aggression there must be more to it?


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## Vandal

I'm not going to debate whether dogs have a certain level of social aggression, or if it is "appropriate " social aggression and so on. I think if something is deemed as a positive, people decide their dog has it, but then make sure to add the socially acceptable behaviors as well. I am just trying to be clear and honest because more and more, I think people need to hear the reality and not so much of the rest. 

There are different types that make up the breed and of course, not all GSDs are socially aggressive...period. The dogs I am talking about were not mauling everyone in sight but I did have to learn how to handle the first one I owned, that's for sure. I entered SchH trials where, ( yes even back then, but with more sense), they tested for unprovoked aggression. We still had a loose leash temperament test before tracking, groups to heel through, judges right there on the field etc. I traveled all over the place with my first dog, who was certainly SA. He went to the WUSV twice, requiring two trips to Europe, not to mention, there were very few local trials for me back then.

The reason that was possible was because of me and the relationship I had with my dogs. Not to mention the people who taught me how to handle him. I made it clear what I did, and did not, want these dogs to do. It's that simple. They were not unreasonable, serve themselves kind of dogs, ( more of those now), they were very willing and had a strong desire to work with me. A strong desire to please and the bond was intense. 

Never would view the helper as a playmate ...ever....always vigilant against outsiders and I had to manage them when people came to my house. They were ALWAYS watching what visitors were up to and no, there was absolutely no "fear" involved in how these dogs behaved. Once you became a part of the household, you were accepted by these dogs.

Never aggressive with children, they had a real sense about that. If the situation called for it, there was no hesitation to act and this wasn't about growling or snapping at someone. These dogs were not indecisive. Most now have no understanding of these types of dogs. I am sure more than a few have read this thread and are going down their list of definitions of what Anne is "really " talking about and thinking these were unstable, nasty dogs. Nasty is not a term I would ever use to describe them. They were so above that kind of behavior but yes, it is something you have to see. 
I have decided that trying to describe some of these things on boards is maybe not the best idea due to what people already have installed in their heads. Especially nowadays. You really have to experience GSDs, all kinds of them, to understand clearly what you are seeing. I simply know that these were dogs I will never forget, they were really very special dogs and not at all like another breed.


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## codmaster

hunterisgreat said:


> They will counter. Since touch is near the end of the process of posturing and aggression, contact back (nipping), or fighting is the logical response.


 
If that is the case, wonder what happened to the behavior specified in the GSD standard - "ALOOF but APPROACHABLE".

Glad that my GSD is not one to nip or fight just because someone innocently touches them. 

It does seem a bit extreme for a dog to nip/bite/even growl JUST because someone touches them. Some of the most defensive, aggressive (when needed) ScH and K9 dogs that I have met were perfectivly fine with even strangers petting them when ok by the owner.

That to me is a much better representative of our breed and something to be bred for and trained for.


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## codmaster

Vandal said:


> I'm not going to debate whether dogs have a certain level of social aggression, or if it is "appropriate " social aggression and so on. I think if something is deemed as a positive, people decide their dog has it, but then make sure to add the socially acceptable behaviors as well. I am just trying to be clear and honest because more and more, I think people need to hear the reality and not so much of the rest.
> 
> There are different types that make up the breed and of course, not all GSDs are socially aggressive...period. The dogs I am talking about were not mauling everyone in sight but I did have to learn how to handle the first one I owned, that's for sure. I entered SchH trials where, ( yes even back then, but with more sense), they tested for unprovoked aggression. We still had a loose leash temperament test before tracking, groups to heel through, judges right there on the field etc. I traveled all over the place with my first dog, who was certainly SA. He went to the WUSV twice, requiring two trips to Europe, not to mention, there were very few local trials for me back then.
> 
> The reason that was possible was because of me and the relationship I had with my dogs. Not to mention the people who taught me how to handle him. I made it clear what I did, and did not, want these dogs to do. It's that simple. They were not unreasonable, serve themselves kind of dogs, ( more of those now), they were very willing and had a strong desire to work with me. A strong desire to please and the bond was intense.
> 
> Never would view the helper as a playmate ...ever....always vigilant against outsiders and I had to manage them when people came to my house. They were ALWAYS watching what visitors were up to and no, there was absolutely no "fear" involved in how these dogs behaved. Once you became a part of the household, you were accepted by these dogs.
> 
> Never aggressive with children, they had a real sense about that. If the situation called for it, there was no hesitation to act and this wasn't about growling or snapping at someone. These dogs were not indecisive. Most now have no understanding of these types of dogs. I am sure more than a few have read this thread and are going down their list of definitions of what Anne is "really " talking about and thinking these were unstable, nasty dogs. Nasty is not a term I would ever use to describe them. They were so above that kind of behavior but yes, it is something you have to see.
> I have decided that trying to describe some of these things on boards is maybe not the best idea due to what people already have installed in their heads. Especially nowadays. You really have to experience GSDs, all kinds of them, to understand clearly what you are seeing. I simply know that these were dogs I will never forget, they were really very special dogs and not at all like another breed.


 
Very well said!

One question - what age did a person stop being a "child" with your dog(s)?

The ones that I have had similar it seemed to be about 13-14 where the dog saw them as people and not a "child'. 

Sort of similar to when a puppy loses the "puppy exsemption" for their behavior with an adult dog.


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## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> If that is the case, wonder what happened to the behavior specified in the GSD standard - "ALOOF but APPROACHABLE".
> 
> Glad that my GSD is not one to nip or fight just because someone innocently touches them.
> 
> It does seem a bit extreme for a dog to nip/bite/even growl JUST because someone touches them. Some of the most defensive, aggressive (when needed) ScH and K9 dogs that I have met were perfectivly fine with even strangers petting them when ok by the owner.
> 
> That to me is a much better representative of our breed and something to be bred for and trained for.


You added "when the owner is ok". When a stranger approaches my dog he looks to me for my validation I'm ok with it. If i am fine with the stranger, he doesnt respond to their petting... probably prefers they just leave him he anyway, but doesnt posture. If they come up to him without me around or if I am uncomfortable/on guard and he sees this, he will growl and posture.

Most SchH dogs now are stupidly high prey and not as balanced anyway. They prey overpowers the aggression in these dogs


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## RocketDog

Vandal said:


> I'm not going to debate whether dogs have a certain level of social aggression, or if it is "appropriate " social aggression and so on. I think if something is deemed as a positive, people decide their dog has it, but then make sure to add the socially acceptable behaviors as well. I am just trying to be clear and honest because more and more, I think people need to hear the reality and not so much of the rest.
> 
> There are different types that make up the breed and of course, not all GSDs are socially aggressive...period. The dogs I am talking about were not mauling everyone in sight but I did have to learn how to handle the first one I owned, that's for sure. I entered SchH trials where, ( yes even back then, but with more sense), they tested for unprovoked aggression. We still had a loose leash temperament test before tracking, groups to heel through, judges right there on the field etc. I traveled all over the place with my first dog, who was certainly SA. He went to the WUSV twice, requiring two trips to Europe, not to mention, there were very few local trials for me back then.
> 
> The reason that was possible was because of me and the relationship I had with my dogs. Not to mention the people who taught me how to handle him. I made it clear what I did, and did not, want these dogs to do. It's that simple. *They were not unreasonable, serve themselves kind of dogs, ( more of those now), they were very willing and had a strong desire to work with me. A strong desire to please and the bond was intense.
> 
> Never would view the helper as a playmate ...ever....always vigilant against outsiders and I had to manage them when people came to my house. They were ALWAYS watching what visitors were up to and no, there was absolutely no "fear" involved in how these dogs behaved. Once you became a part of the household, you were accepted by these dogs.
> 
> Never aggressive with children, they had a real sense about that. If the situation called for it, there was no hesitation to act and this wasn't about growling or snapping at someone. These dogs were not indecisive.* Most now have no understanding of these types of dogs. I am sure more than a few have read this thread and are going down their list of definitions of what Anne is "really " talking about and thinking these were unstable, nasty dogs. Nasty is not a term I would ever use to describe them. They were so above that kind of behavior but yes, it is something you have to see.
> I have decided that trying to describe some of these things on boards is maybe not the best idea due to what people already have installed in their heads. Especially nowadays. You really have to experience GSDs, all kinds of them, to understand clearly what you are seeing. I simply know that these were dogs I will never forget, they were really very special dogs and not at all like another breed.



Actually, you are describing what I have always rather thought the GSD to be. 22 years ago when I was first investigating them, this is what I came to understand--and what I didn't realize was missing so much today. Not that I am in ANY way what I would consider knowledgeable about the breed, just simply relaying what I always thought. This is why I love reading these threads. It helps to clarify there is so much more to this breed and learning about the breed.


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## Vandal

I will just add this in response to the last couple of posts. The dogs I am talking about taught me quite a bit about myself. Like I said already, dogs feel what we feel. People talk about nerves going down the leash but then seem to not accept that a dog would want to protect them, without being verbally told to.
A dog's first language is body language. English, ( or German etc), is their second language. The dogs I discussed were QUITE in tune with me. They felt what I did and if my behavior told them something was wrong, they started looking for the source of it. I had to learn to be confident and in control of my emotions, so I did not confuse my own dog.
Dogs watch us constantly, they don't have computers and TV to distract them. Our body language tells them things and you cannot be nervous or tense and hide it from your dog. I tell my dogs people are ok more with what I am thinking, and the resulting body language, than what I am saying to them. Might remind them to sit but the rest of what I am doing is saying much more to them than that command.


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## lhczth

Anne and I have been discussing this in emails too. She was asking me what dogs I have known with SA. Here is a description of a dog owned by a friend (whose dam is from Anne). This dog has SA. 



> Very confident, some what aloof. Would definitely stop an intruder, but once he has been told someone is welcome he is fine. He knows me now and will come over for pets and actually is very accepting of people once Jeff invites them into the house. He isn't that accepting of other people handling him (Jeff was a bit worried about this for the breed survey/conformation thing), but he will give a definite warning and not just go off on someone. He is a bit scary to be in front of in the blind the first time.  The biggest thing I notice about Fella is his confidence. In that respect he reminds me a lot of Belschik. These are dogs that just know their place in the world and it is at the top.


Add to this is he has NO handler aggression and can run with other dogs (males and females).

Nike was interesting when she was in my truck. In a crate or in the house she was rather vocal about someone approaching. When she was loose in my truck you would not even know she was there (maybe if you had tried to break in). She would let people in and then would lean forward from the back seat and give them a little growl just to let them know she was there and she was watching. The first time she did this sort of surprised me. After that I would just let her know the person was allowed. Deja is another one who is actually pretty quiet and doesn't tend to make a fuss (maybe she figures everyone else is doing a good enough job), but she lets her presence known once I open the door. Even then she is quite and will put her feet on the storm door and just stare the person in the face. That almost makes people step back more quickly than the raging barking monsters because they are not expecting it.


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## lhczth

Dogs learning to read us is an excellent point. I learned a lot from Nike, but maybe more so from my husband despite his not being a dog trainer/handler. I always worried about her and would be right on her anytime we were in a group of people. Having had, previously, a nervy dog with reactive aggression probably didn't help me not worry. I came home one day and there Nike was outside with my husband, a group of his friends and their kids. She was fine. My husband didn't worry. He just treated things as matter of fact and because of that so did Nike.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> I'm not going to debate whether dogs have a certain level of social aggression, or if it is "appropriate " social aggression and so on. I think if something is deemed as a positive, people decide their dog has it, but then make sure to add the socially acceptable behaviors as well. I am just trying to be clear and honest because more and more, I think people need to hear the reality and not so much of the rest.
> 
> There are different types that make up the breed and of course, not all GSDs are socially aggressive...period. The dogs I am talking about were not mauling everyone in sight but I did have to learn how to handle the first one I owned, that's for sure. I entered SchH trials where, ( yes even back then, but with more sense), they tested for unprovoked aggression. We still had a loose leash temperament test before tracking, groups to heel through, judges right there on the field etc. I traveled all over the place with my first dog, who was certainly SA. He went to the WUSV twice, requiring two trips to Europe, not to mention, there were very few local trials for me back then.
> 
> The reason that was possible was because of me and the relationship I had with my dogs. Not to mention the people who taught me how to handle him. I made it clear what I did, and did not, want these dogs to do. It's that simple. They were not unreasonable, serve themselves kind of dogs, ( more of those now), they were very willing and had a strong desire to work with me. A strong desire to please and the bond was intense.
> 
> Never would view the helper as a playmate ...ever....always vigilant against outsiders and I had to manage them when people came to my house. They were ALWAYS watching what visitors were up to and no, there was absolutely no "fear" involved in how these dogs behaved. Once you became a part of the household, you were accepted by these dogs.
> 
> Never aggressive with children, they had a real sense about that. If the situation called for it, there was no hesitation to act and this wasn't about growling or snapping at someone. These dogs were not indecisive. Most now have no understanding of these types of dogs. I am sure more than a few have read this thread and are going down their list of definitions of what Anne is "really " talking about and thinking these were unstable, nasty dogs. Nasty is not a term I would ever use to describe them. They were so above that kind of behavior but yes, it is something you have to see.
> I have decided that trying to describe some of these things on boards is maybe not the best idea due to what people already have installed in their heads. Especially nowadays. You really have to experience GSDs, all kinds of them, to understand clearly what you are seeing. I simply know that these were dogs I will never forget, they were really very special dogs and not at all like another breed.


You've just described the type of dogs my parents produced. I know exactly what you are talking about. You can't really put it in words and you have to see it to understand.


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## hunterisgreat

I agree that handler aggression is a seperate thing all together. Jäger is my most socially aggressive and civil dog, and also the least likely to show aggression at me (never even... the others have made or considered making a pass at me). Even if he is upset with me it will get redirected to something else.


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## msvette2u

I've read this thread as it progressed and I don't understand why people think it's okay for a dog to be "socially aggressive" when they or their owners are not threatened?
For instance, a neighbor reaching over the fence? Sure you could say "the dog felt a threat", but isn't that why good nerves are important?
If you're standing right there, and aren't afraid, why should the dog interpret that situation as a threat?

Am I misunderstanding something?


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## KristiM

msvette2u said:


> I've read this thread as it progressed and I don't understand why people think it's okay for a dog to be "socially aggressive" when they or their owners are not threatened?
> For instance, a neighbor reaching over the fence? Sure you could say "the dog felt a threat", but isn't that why good nerves are important?
> If you're standing right there, and aren't afraid, why should the dog interpret that situation as a threat?
> 
> Am I misunderstanding something?


I am curious about this, to an extent I agree that no, someone reaching over my fence really is not much of a threat. But is there no such thing as territorial behaviour? I always thought GSDs were known for being territorial?


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## pets4life

they are kristi but it has been bred out of them like vandal said some of them will grab a hold of someones arm comming into their territory but if these same dogs are let out or get loose in public or their fenced area they are usually ok 


it is what made gsds and what makes SOME GSDs amazing guard dogs people dont walk around with a sign saying i am a threat they wait till their owners are there to let someone in. Most gsds will bark and look bad but the one i was talking about will nail someone if you come into its fence house or car without being invited.


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## msvette2u

I meant if their owner is standing there. Many people have said their dog is there while they visit over the fence, and if the person is too close or reaches over, the dog bites.
It seems a "good" dog, standing there while owner visits across the fence could distinguish that the person is not a threat??


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## hunterisgreat

I find sometimes trying to explain it in the context of humans where you can more easily imagine the feelings and emotions you would experience in the scenario can aid in understanding whats going on in the dog's head.


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## gagsd

msvette2u said:


> I meant if their owner is standing there. Many people have said their dog is there while they visit over the fence, and if the person is too close or reaches over, the dog bites.
> It seems a "good" dog, standing there while owner visits across the fence could distinguish that the person is not a threat??


Several people actually stated if they are there, and calm, the dog is just fine.


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## pets4life

thats a foolish thing to do tho i would never let someone reach over the fence thats like giving a civil dog a bone (your arm) to bite lol its a temptation, if they want to come in the fence they can properly come around


also with a dog like this you dont own a fence where someone can reach over and pet your dog that is very stupid and foolish

don't tease it with your arm tho lol where it cant see your body ive done hidden sleeve work with my dog shes quick to latch on so i wouldnt ever let someoen do that

But if i am there i can open my gate and she will run out sniff them and then they come in


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## KristiM

Don't know what either of my dogs would do in that situation...never had a conversation with my current neighbours over the fence. I have neighbour issues, they are "not dog people" and they have created kind of a volatile situation regarding my dog and the fence. Which I think is part of the reason why havoc's reaction to someone reaching over the fence would be overly violent.


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## Mrs.K

KristiM said:


> I am curious about this, to an extent I agree that no, someone reaching over my fence really is not much of a threat. But is there no such thing as territorial behaviour? I always thought GSDs were known for being territorial?


They are very territorial dogs. With mine, Kids can reach through the fence and pet them. Adults... it depends if I'm there or not, if they know them or not.
In the car, they don't start barking just because someone walks by. When I'm there strangers can reach through the crate, I wouldn't advise it if I'm not there, though.


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## msvette2u

If you read through the aggression forums, "good bad and ugly", you see lots of scenarios where dogs have bitten when there was no threat :shrug:


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## Vandal

We have a rather huge shift in mentality nowadays and the dogs are paying for it.

Would you consider a person reaching through a window in your house as threatening? I would. I might consider shooting 'em. Maybe that makes me unstable but a fence is usually surrounding the dog's territory and mine. If someone ignores the warning from the dog and reaches over anyway, I would expect my dog to escalate his response.

Again, this is not about unstable dogs but nowadays, any dog can be made to sound like he is. Years ago, dogs were expected to protect. It was accepted and people RESPECTED the dog's space and territory! I have so much sympathy for what the dog are put through now due to the level of ignorance that exists and the very unreasonable expectations. They are DOGS!


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## gagsd

msvette2u said:


> If you read through the aggression forums, "good bad and ugly", you see lots of scenarios where dogs have bitten when there was no threat :shrug:


But you need to qualify.... No human_ perceived _threat, or no canine _perceived_ threat??


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> We have a rather huge shift in mentality nowadays and the dogs are paying for it.
> 
> Would you consider a person reaching through a window in your house as threatening? I would. I might consider shooting 'em. Maybe that makes me unstable but a fence is usually surrounding the dog's territory and mine. If someone ignores the warning from the dog and reaches over anyway, I would expect my dog to escalate his response.
> 
> Again, this is not about unstable dogs but nowadays, any dog can be made to sound like he is. Years ago, dogs were expected to protect. It was accepted and people RESPECTED the dog's space and territory! I have so much sympathy for what the dog are put through now due to the level of ignorance that exists and the very unreasonable expectations. They are DOGS!


Exactly! 

Back then it wasn't the dog. It was "What the heck *did you do* to that dog that he bit you?!"


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## gagsd

Mrs.K said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Back then it wasn't the dog. It was "What the heck *did you do* to that dog that he bit you?!"


So True!!!
My brother got bitten as a kid. The response was... "Well we told you not to stick your fingers through the neighbor's fence!"


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## BlackthornGSD

I expect territorial behavior to some degree, but if I am right there, I expect the dog to respect my attitude. For example, crate guarding--if I'm standing in front of the crate, the dog who is crate guarding should stop when I say. Same with the yard fence. If not, then I think it's a lack of either clarity on the dog's part or a lack of respect.


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## Vandal

> Back then it wasn't the dog. It was "What the heck *did you do* to that dog that he bit you?!"


It was the same when I grew up.


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## Vandal

I talk to my neighbor through the fence all the time. Doesn't matter which dog is there, they might bark at first but when they see she is okay with me, they chill out. If they didn't, I would consider it a problem with the dog AFTER I asked myself what I, ( or my neighbor), might be doing to incite them. That never happens. She has a Dobermann who is the same way. She has some dog sense also.


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## KristiM

I like that my dogs won't just allow anyone to walk in the house or yard. That's part of owning a gsd to me. (I do think that havoc could be on the extreme side in his actions if someone strange walked into my house or stick their hand in my window.) But even Odin (who is a pretty chill dog) would make a lot of noise, get in your face, possibly nip/put his mouth on you etc if you came into my house or yard uninvited. My Aussie would have invited you in and sat in your lap! I hated that!!!


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## Vandal

Just to be clear here, my first comments about the fence were in the context of me not being right there. 
Also, I did not expect the dogs I talked about, to fully engage just on the sight of someone. They were dogs who would escalate. I have talked about walking Vandal by a river one day and a man coming out of a bush straight at us. That was for sure threatening and I felt threatened. Vandal did not bite him, he did a rather impressive hold and bark while I told the guy to hold still. If he hadn't, Vandal would have bitten him. That was not trained in the dog, he had the ability to "think" in these situations, some dogs don't and didn't back then either. 

Nowadays, your dog cannot even bark at a person without someone thinking he is vicious or dangerous. So, just trying to keep things in context here.


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## msvette2u

gagsd said:


> But you need to qualify.... No human_ perceived _threat, or no canine _perceived_ threat??


And this is what I'm getting at. 

Yes if you're not home, your dog could/should keep folks from entering the gate, but if you're standing there and the dog perceives a threat because your dad or Grandma is entering the gate, that's a problem.

Once I've established (by opening my gate or door) and hugging someone, the dog needs to take my cue by standing down, and not thinking _it_ has to guard still.

I think that's as big of issue as anything - people saying "OH, my dog is such a good protector because he just pinned my dad in the corner!" 

Is that really behavior that is good or that we should live with?
These dogs are very intelligent. Why should they think someone's a threat even after we've indicated they are not?


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> And this is what I'm getting at.
> 
> Yes if you're not home, your dog could/should keep folks from entering the gate, but if you're standing there and the dog perceives a threat because your dad or Grandma is entering the gate, that's a problem.
> 
> Once I've established (by opening my gate or door) and hugging someone, the dog needs to take my cue by standing down, and not thinking _it_ has to guard still.
> 
> I think that's as big of issue as anything - people saying "OH, my dog is such a good protector because he just pinned my dad in the corner!"
> 
> Is that really behavior that is good or that we should live with?
> These dogs are very intelligent. Why should they think someone's a threat even after we've indicated they are not?


Nobody ever said anything about grandma or grandpa... 
We are always talking about strangers. Not family, not friends but *S.T.R.A.N.G.E.R.S*.
We all have made that differentiation.


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## msvette2u

Okay...so is the stranger welcome on the property??

And even if not (some church members going door-to-door) are we going to allow Fido to take them out?



> But you need to qualify.... No human perceived threat, or no canine perceived threat??


We'll just say for the sake of argument that the stranger, although we've never met, we can tell means us no harm.


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## msvette2u

BlackthornGSD said:


> I expect territorial behavior to some degree, but if I am right there, I expect the dog to respect my attitude. For example, crate guarding--if I'm standing in front of the crate, the dog who is crate guarding should stop when I say. Same with the yard fence.* If not, then I think it's a lack of either clarity on the dog's part or a lack of respect.*


This is what I'm trying to find out 

Is there such a lack of respect for their humans that these dogs are putting themselves and their owners in jeopardy?

To me, a good dog will sense a threat vs. a non-threat, and if they can't control themselves and bite your pastor coming for a visit, then either the dog has a flaw or your training has a flaw or your dog doesn't perceive you as the leader, or competent to decide if a threat exists or not.


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## pets4life

yeah i agree with vandal I think also a lot of good dogs have bitten people its just poor handling and victim probably did something stupid the dog is given a bad label as a fear biter or a un stable dog. 

Thats why no one is breeding nice real dogs much anymore society cant handle them people have no respect for dogs anymore

people put unrealistic expectations on dogs now

I like to train my dogs aggression so i can control it in real situations turn it on and off so now when something happens at least i can fire her on and then off rather than wait for an explosion when she senses a threat, she still will react to threats tho but i think training in pp made her a calmer more stable dog. She more looks for a signal to act but before training she would have acted on her much quicker. PP training also teaches ways to subdue a man in short periods of time without risking the dogs safety and yours. You know your dog has the skills to win then. Kinda like a trained martial arts fighter like hunter.


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## pets4life

Like the others said i dont think a good dog really needs training to protect you but I think it really boosts their combat skills and confidence and they will go into the fight and stay in the fight like they will win everytime. Like if i had a choice of taking a normal man with me to protect me vs a martial arts expert Id pick the martial arts expert. Both will need courage but the martial arts expert will have the skills and much higher confidence level cause he knows what he has to do to take someone out.

vandal seems to have and breed some really nice dogs lol


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## Mrs.K

It's getting really tiring... the same thing over and over. Sometimes I wonder if people do selective reading or not. 

From my understanding, working dog handlers understand, treat and handle their dogs differently. It gets very apparent in discussions like these. 

If I am not outside, my dogs won't be in the frontyard, period. That is the only place where you can actually reach over and through. As long as I'm there, my dogs are not a threat to anyone and they won't perceive you as a threat. 

As for somebody knocking at the door. There are three Shepherds and one Mal in the house, you make a guess what happens when somebody knocks at the door. 

I have yet to meet anyone that ever said "He pinned my father down, he's oh so protective." 
I have not ever met anyone like that, nor do I know anyone like that. So it's basically out of the question for me. I don't even know how to respond to that. 
No one ever here suggested anything like that, nor do we advocate anything like that. 

Our dogs respond the way we want them to respond. If we are calm and assertive, they are calm and assertive. If we are excited, they get excited. If we are cautious, they respond to that too. They pick up on our behavior. 
If I'm on the footstep of my house and the dogs are in the yard and you walk up on the fence, there is a good distance between the two of us and the dogs would be faster at you than I am. As long as I am calm. Even though I'm on the other side of the yard, you could still reach over the fence and pet any of them because I'm there, I'm calm, and I do not perceive you as a threat. Chances are, they completely ignore you because you are not interesting and they'd probably ignore you trying to call them over too and would go about their own things.


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## msvette2u

Maybe that was a slightly overdone scenario but there's been dozens if not a few hundred incidents of aggression towards people in these threads.
Aggression (the good, the bad & the ugly) - German Shepherd Dog Forums


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## pets4life

who are you talking to mrs k lol you have to respond at least to someones question or name


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## PatchonGSD

msvette2u said:


> Okay...so is the stranger welcome on the property??
> 
> *And even if not (some church members going door-to-door) are we going to allow Fido to take them out?*
> I might.
> 
> We'll just say for the sake of argument that the stranger, although we've never met, we can tell means us no harm.


...


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## msvette2u

pets4life said:


> who are you talking to mrs k lol you have to respond at least to someones question or name





> From my understanding, working dog handlers understand, treat and handle their dogs differently. It gets very apparent in discussions like these.


I'm a bit confused to. The OP is not a working dog handler


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## Jack's Dad

Great thread.

So in a lot of the aggression threads if a dog barks, hackles or growls, in some of the scenarios mentioned here, many say the dog is FA.

I think in some of those cases the dog is doing what a good GSD should do.

Now I realize there are genetic nerve bags but the more I read here the more I wonder, could the owners be creating the instability in some of these dogs.

Maybe some of these dogs are ok but the owners don't understand the way the dog should be.

Both my dogs have strong territorial aggression. I want them to have that. But some would say they are acting out of fear.

It is common to hear that on this board.


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## Mrs.K

PatchonGSD said:


> ...


All these "going from door to door" people started to ignore our house. Sometimes I wonder if there is an online forum where these people warn about certain houses.


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## PatchonGSD

Vandal said:


> We have a rather huge shift in mentality nowadays and the dogs are paying for it.
> 
> Would you consider a person reaching through a window in your house as threatening? I would. I might consider shooting 'em. Maybe that makes me unstable but a fence is usually surrounding the dog's territory and mine. If someone ignores the warning from the dog and reaches over anyway, I would expect my dog to escalate his response.
> 
> Again, this is not about unstable dogs but nowadays, any dog can be made to sound like he is. Years ago, dogs were expected to protect. It was accepted and people RESPECTED the dog's space and territory! I have so much sympathy for what the dog are put through now due to the level of ignorance that exists and the very unreasonable expectations. They are DOGS!


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: I could not agree more on all points!


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## Jax08

I haven't read the thread yet but I do agree with Andy. My dog is FA with other dogs. You can see the lack of confidence, the shying away, the tension. But there is something about a person not moving, frozen, that sets her off. It's not normal to her and she reacts STRONGLY to it. There is no hesitation in her response. She's not scared of the person...she just simply really doesn't like it.


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## gagsd

Jack's Dad said:


> Great thread.
> 
> So in a lot of the aggression threads if a dog barks, hackles or growls, in some of the scenarios mentioned here, many say the dog is FA.
> 
> I think in some of those cases the dog is doing what a good GSD should do.
> 
> Now I realize there are genetic nerve bags but the more I read here the more I wonder, could the owners be creating the instability in some of these dogs.
> 
> Maybe some of these dogs are ok but the owners don't understand the way the dog should be.
> 
> Both my dogs have strong territorial aggression. I want them to have that. But some would say they are acting out of fear.
> 
> It is common to hear that on this board.


And once people hear their dog is fear aggressive, I bet it just sticks and the poor dog gets labeled and handled as if he is.
Self-fulfilling prophecy. 
I am often amazed at the different information I get from real people versus what is on an internet forum.


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## gagsd

Shoot... I can make my dog insecure in the way I handle him. It is very apparent when I train in front of people that I respect and are more experienced than I. I get worried. The dog starts ear-flicking and glancing out of the corner of his eye at me because he senses my nervousness.
Most watching cannot tell how I feel.... but they can see the dog's reaction.


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## Mrs.K

gagsd said:


> And once people hear their dog is fear aggressive, I bet it just sticks and the poor dog gets labeled and handled as if he is.
> Self-fulfilling prophecy.
> I am often amazed at the different information I get from real people versus what is on an internet forum.


Also, it depends on whether you deal with pet dog people and the average jo and if you are dealing with somebody that actually works their dogs in Schutzhund/Protection/SAR etc. 

There is a huge difference in not only how we view our dogs but also how we work them, keep them, what needs they have and what is expected of them. That alone, makes a difference. The average pet owner wouldn't want the type of dog that we are looking for or want. They don't want to hear the word aggression or the truth what a dog really is and how they can and should react in certain situations. Even though the word "Alpha" is being thrown around a lot... 
crazy world...


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## gagsd

I watched a video taped seminar recently. Kathy Sdao's "Cujo Meets Pavlov."
She presented a video of an aggressive dog.... and I couldn't believe it. To me, the dog was insecure and showing it, but compared to aggression that I have seen the dog was like a 4 on a 1-10 scale of aggressive behaviors. Just not very scary.

So yes, Mrs K..... it certainly depends on the person doing the evaluating.


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## Vandal

> But there is something about a person not moving, frozen, that sets her off. It's not normal to her and she reacts STRONGLY to it. There is no hesitation in her response. She's not scared of the person...she just simply really doesn't like it.


Well of course. There is nothing 'normal" about that behavior. It is threatening. How do I know that? I work dogs as the helper, that's how. I use that body language and this is where you see who the dogs really are. Again, watch National Geographic or two dogs before they fight and what precedes an attack. Very quiet, still, tense "frozen" behavior on the part of the "attacker". Ever watch the posturing of two dogs before they fight? Slow circling, frozen, tense tight muscles, staring. It is threatening to a dog. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were introduced to a person who froze and stared at you. It would un-nerve most people or at the very least make you uncomfortable.


As for what Andy said. Of COURSE that is the case. I have seen it over and over and OVER. People think they can behave any old way and the dog should not notice. Ever worked with a nervous person or someone who over-reacts to everything? It will wear you out! lol. Dogs are living things, they FEEL. Goes back to what I said about Jeff a few pages ago. No fear, very comfortable with dogs, so, they do not view him as any kind of threat. Just like a child. 

Honestly, at first I did not understand why people just could not not grasp this. I have come to realize that people are really resistant to looking at themselves and their own behavior. They don't seem to realize how they are behaving and almost all of them have to have a coach to point it out. It can be really subtle or not.


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## RocketDog

Vandal said:


> Well of course. There is nothing 'normal" about that behavior. It is threatening. How do I know that? I work dogs as the helper, that's how. I use that body language and this is where you see who the dogs really are. Again, watch National Geographic or two dogs before they fight and what precedes an attack. Very quiet, still, tense "frozen" behavior on the part of the "attacker". Ever watch the posturing of two dogs before they fight? Slow circling, frozen, tense tight muscles, staring. It is threatening to a dog. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were introduced to a person who froze and stared at you. It would un-nerve most people or at the very least make you uncomfortable.
> 
> 
> As for what Andy said. Of COURSE that is the case. I have seen it over and over and OVER. People think they can behave any old way and the dog should not notice. Ever worked with a nervous person or someone who over-reacts to everything? It will wear you out! lol. Dogs are living things, they FEEL. Goes back to what I said about Jeff a few pages ago. No fear, very comfortable with dogs, so, they do not view him as any kind of threat. Just like a child.
> 
> Honestly, at first I did not understand why people just could not not grasp this. *I have come to realize that people are really resistant to looking at themselves and their own behavior*. They don't seem to realize how they are behaving and almost all of them have to have a coach to point it out. It can be really subtle or not.



Ain't that the truth!!!


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## Jax08

I don't disagree, Anne. I understand perfectly why she reacts and I don't discourage her from doing so. She's only done that a couple times. The first at about 6 months old, a woman who did it on purpose just to see her reaction because she had been bitten the week before. I was furious. The second, some poor guy who jumped off a train and just happened to walk out of the woods in the middle of nowhere into a group with two GSDs. Mine looked at him once, twice, and decided this was not ok. The other just laid there and couldn't have cared less. I'll take Jax's reaction any day and be thankful she's with me.


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## Vandal

Max v Stephanitz thoughts on training

Here...everyone on this board seems to love Max quotes. Read a few of these with this thread in mind. Maybe it will be more clear what he meant.


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## pets4life

vandal but why are the cocky ones the ones that think they are dog whisperer the ones who always get bit or the ones who our dogs always hate? My dog hates men who act dominant that say that all dogs love them? they are the ones who mine will most likely go for if she ever does. The ones who think are every dogs best friend?

While a person who truely does fear my dog you can tell they shake and stuff my dog i know never reacts to them. She might sniff them in the house but she wont ever bother them. LIke if i know someone is scared of dogs but is not going to try to kick or hit my dog out of fear I am never scared my dog will bark or try to hurt them. But the cocky people or ones who think they are like every dogs best friend I worry about lol

fear of my dog does not make my dog react even if they back away from her or shake. Real fear of her. But trying to dominate her does.

I do have a few friends that are/were scared of my dog but she has never bugged or reacted them. they arent animal or dog people.


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## Mrs.K

I don't want to bring up Cesar Milan and this video is NOT about Cesar Milan but it is how the owners view their own dog and what the dog actually is once Cesar enters the yard. 
"I either pictured a bloodboth" "Knight fighting a dragon"... 
Again, this is NOT about CM but about how people view aggression. They don't know what they really have on their hand and then the words being used...


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## msvette2u

"Confidence in the master must be the foundation..."

Ah just what I was thinking all along.


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## GrammaD

Jack's Dad said:


> Great thread.
> 
> So in a lot of the aggression threads if a dog barks, hackles or growls, in some of the scenarios mentioned here, many say the dog is FA.
> 
> I think in some of those cases the dog is doing what a good GSD should do.
> 
> Now I realize there are genetic nerve bags but the more I read here the more I wonder, could the owners be creating the instability in some of these dogs.
> 
> Maybe some of these dogs are ok but the owners don't understand the way the dog should be.
> 
> Both my dogs have strong territorial aggression. I want them to have that. But some would say they are acting out of fear.
> 
> It is common to hear that on this board.



That is where I am/was. I was so conditioned to see any responses which could be perceived as aggressive as demonstrating a lack of nerve that I really was deeply concerned about Huxley being a "nerve bag" of a dog. I am still glad I stepped up the socialization, but I am no longer going to fret because he is unwilling to be touched by someone he doesn't know until I say "ok" and even then he doesn't really enjoy it like my Lab does. He's not a lab. :hammer: 

He is solid with children, people he knows he loves on, and he is so obedient I am constantly surprised. I have had obedient dogs, my shelties were, my lab is, but he almost seems like he can anticipate what I want which has made learning a snap for both of us. 

I have very much appreciated this discussion. Thank you all so much for sharing your knowledge and experience.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> "Confidence in the master must be the foundation..."
> 
> Ah just what I was thinking all along.


Also known as "Common Dog Sense"


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## Vandal

Ok, I have to stop now, it has stopped raining and I don't have time to keep posting. I agree with Mrs K but can't download the video.

I can't directly answer your question about "cocky people" without watching their behavior. I was talking about specific body language that a dog can perceive as threatening but there is so much more going on there, I'd have to write a book and some people would STILL not understand. Like I said earlier, much of this you have to see. It becomes clear for most people when it is demonstrated with their own dog. They know their dogs to a degree and can understand more clearly. Talking about it tends to confuse the issue because it is never about just ONE thing that is going on. Things change too rapidly. People used to get mad at me when I worked their dogs because I would tell them to do something and then the next day, tell them to stop doing it. "But you told me to do that" they would say and I would respond, "that was yesterday" but in many cases, it is seconds. Probably confused more people with what I just said and is why I think I should shut up now.


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## msvette2u

Well it drives me nuts when people say "my dog SENSED that guy was _bad_".
I think to an extent dogs can do that but overall, it may be just a difference. 
Or, as in Jax's case, the people might be just an idiot.

Temperament tests in shelters include a person with a cane, or walker, a person with an umbrella, a person who opens an umbrella, for this very reason. Many dogs haven't seen a person with a cane or walker, that doesn't mean the person with cane/walker is a mass murderer, it means the dog simply hasn't seen that before and it freaks them out


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## Vandal

We are not talking about dogs in shelters. We are talking about GSDs. You lean more to the unstable dog thinking than what we are discussing.
One thing I wanted to add about cocky people is most of them don't respect boundries...of dogs or people. Ok bye.


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## msvette2u

I was using an example (temperament tests in shelters), but people who bought their dogs "new" have this issue all the time.


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## Jack's Dad

It's hard to protect the herd and be friends with the wolves.

Loved the Stephanitz link. Heck he was almost a PO trainer. Ahead of his time.


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## lhczth

msvette2u said:


> Well it drives me nuts when people say "my dog SENSED that guy was _bad_".
> I think to an extent dogs can do that but overall, it may be just a difference.
> Or, as in Jax's case, the people might be just an idiot.


Dogs have a tremendous innate ability to sense things. If they didn't they would not be used as service dogs for the disabled or as seizure alert dogs. 



> Temperament tests in shelters include a person with a cane, or walker, a person with an umbrella, a person who opens an umbrella, for this very reason. Many dogs haven't seen a person with a cane or walker, that doesn't mean the person with cane/walker is a mass murderer, it means the dog simply hasn't seen that before and it freaks them out


A dog with good nerves does not freak out when they see these things. Actually it surprises me how many dogs of all breeds take these things in stride. I am a CGC evaluator and my friend who does the class building up to the test does all sorts of things like walking with a walker around the dogs or pulling a crate dolly. Some of the dogs will look, but we have never had any freak. 

Unfortunately shelter environments put many dogs into a stressful situation that they are ill equipped to handle. That, though, is another topic.


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## lhczth

Andy, what is a PO trainer? Post Office?


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## msvette2u

lhczth said:


> Dogs have a tremendous innate ability to sense things. If they didn't they would not be used as service dogs for the disabled or as seizure alert dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> A dog with good nerves does not freak out when they see these things. Actually it surprises me how many dogs of all breeds take these things in stride. I am a CGC evaluator and my friend who does the class building up to the test does all sorts of things like walking with a walker around the dogs or pulling a crate dolly. Some of the dogs will look, but we have never had any freak.
> 
> Unfortunately shelter environments put many dogs into a stressful situation that they are ill equipped to handle. That, though, is another topic.


I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. 

That said, this particular "forum" of "aggression - the good bad and ugly" is rife with dogs doing just that. 
Whether from breeders, rescues/shelters or pet shops, apparently bad nerves are all too common?


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## Liesje

As far as "sensing the bad guy", it depends on whether I trust my dog to make that call in the first place. I have one GSD who I trust when he alerts, perks up, reacts. We are in tune with each other. If he pauses and turns his head, I follow his gaze too. However I've also had a GSD that I did not trust because she had poor judgment (terrified of the nicest people, OK with someone I know to basically be a sexual predator). Just because the latter dog probably would bite someone before the former dog would doesn't in any way lead me to believe there was social aggression or a true sense of an ill-intentioned person, just a low threshold for a fight or flight response. So whether or not I trust my dog to "sense a bad guy" depends on whether or not I trust my dog and that depends on how well I know my dog and the bond that we have and by having a deeper bond I have an understanding of my dog's nerve and whether or not they are correctly calibrated to sense a bad guy.


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## Jack's Dad

lhczth said:


> Andy, what is a PO trainer? Post Office?


Hmmm. Perfect Obedience, Pretty Obnoxious, Properly Observant.

Naw. I think he would have been Positive Only, except he didn't have a Petco to buy treats from, and where he could socialize his dogs.:crazy:


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## VonKromeHaus

Liesje said:


> As far as "sensing the bad guy", it depends on whether I trust my dog to make that call in the first place. I have one GSD who I trust when he alerts, perks up, reacts. We are in tune with each other. If he pauses and turns his head, I follow his gaze too. However I've also had a GSD that I did not trust because she had poor judgment (terrified of the nicest people, OK with someone I know to basically be a sexual predator). Just because the latter dog probably would bite someone before the former dog would doesn't in any way lead me to believe there was social aggression or a true sense of an ill-intentioned person, just a low threshold for a fight or flight response. So whether or not I trust my dog to "sense a bad guy" depends on whether or not I trust my dog and that depends on how well I know my dog and the bond that we have and by having a deeper bond I have an understanding of my dog's nerve and whether or not they are correctly calibrated to sense a bad guy.



Good post!^^^

My own GSD is very friendly, moreso than the average GSD in my opinion. I trust his judgement on people 110% of the time. He has NEVER been wrong about someone. 

I want a stable dog that will protect me or the house and car if the situation arises. I am finding that dogs with good nerves are becoming the minority as the general population leans towards dogs with bad nerves IMHO.


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## onyx'girl

VonKromeHaus said:


> Good post!^^^
> 
> My own GSD is very friendly, moreso than the average GSD in my opinion. I trust his judgement on people 110% of the time. He has NEVER been wrong about someone.
> 
> I want a stable dog that will protect me or the house and car if the situation arises. I am finding that dogs with good nerves are becoming the minority as the general population leans towards dogs with bad nerves IMHO.


I don't understand your post? Who doesn't want a stable dog? 
The "general population" doesn't always know what they are getting because they don't research enough about the breed they are purchasing. They want a powerful dog that will protect them and then buy from breeders that are not doing the particular breed right and producing nervebags.
This goes for the dobe's rotties and other breeds that use to be known for their protective instincts but are now known to be of unstable nerve. It isn't because they are 'leaning toward' that, but that is what they are buying unsuspectingly.


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## VonKromeHaus

onyx'girl said:


> I don't understand your post? Who doesn't want a stable dog?
> The "general population" doesn't always know what they are getting because they don't research enough about the breed they are purchasing. They want a powerful dog that will protect them and then buy from breeders that are not doing the particular breed right and producing nervebags.
> This goes for the dobe's rotties and other breeds that use to be known for their protective instincts but are now known to be of unstable nerve. It isn't because they are 'leaning toward' that, but that is what they are buying unsuspectingly.


You worded it much better than I did. I meant that the general public tends to have unstable dogs, moreso due to their ignorance where breeders are concerned. They open the paper and but the first puppy they see of whatever breed they choose. So they buy a nervebag of a dog and love it, then they breed it for whatever reason and create more nervebags and the cycle continues. They lean towards a nervy dog due to their ignorance but that is what is the majority now. IME.


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> . They want a powerful dog that will protect them and then buy from breeders that are not doing the particular breed right and producing nervebags.


Yeah, they want that but at the same time, the dog can't be aggressive...  or show any trait a dog would show in certain situations. 

Oh the irony...


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## elisabeth_00117

gagsd said:


> *Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
> I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.*
> 
> Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame.


This is what I have seen as well. And experience with my little one.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> We have a rather huge shift in mentality nowadays and the dogs are paying for it.
> 
> Would you consider a person reaching through a window in your house as threatening? I would. I might consider shooting 'em. Maybe that makes me unstable but a fence is usually surrounding the dog's territory and mine. If someone ignores the warning from the dog and reaches over anyway, I would expect my dog to escalate his response.
> 
> Again, this is not about unstable dogs but nowadays, any dog can be made to sound like he is. Years ago, dogs were expected to protect. It was accepted and people RESPECTED the dog's space and territory! I have so much sympathy for what the dog are put through now due to the level of ignorance that exists and the very unreasonable expectations. They are DOGS!


In my experience, generally speaking high sport type guys don't like Jäger. He is a typical Slovak/DDR dog... he is a Brawnson grandson. High prey, but higher civil aggression. Its funny how many people are scared of him, and I mean helpers that have 20+ years experience and are regularly handling dogs at the nationals and world level... these are guys that don't scare easily, and I've watched many of them flinch when jager comes in *clean* for a bark and hold. The best part is, Jäger eats that stuff up so it works out well for us. He knows what genuine fear of him looks like, and it is his favorite dessert. They all hate him... if I had a nickel for every time I heard "make sure you don't loose the leash" or "stay on top of him b/c he's the type of dog that will really tear someone up" or even "he is full of venom". All this for a dog that has *never once* lunged, bite, or snapped at someone on or off the field. His stare makes people get all weirded out. They never say things like that about Katya, and I have a running gag reel of all the times Katya has bitten a helper for hitting her legs, whipping at her, etc. The people who are just enamored with him are a) Police/PPD trainers, b) none-IPO sport folks (KNPV, PSA, etc), and ironically people who have little experience with dogs in general or dogs like him and find that for how scared they were meeting him, now that they feel they are "friends" and trust he won't do anything they love him. Someone told me yesterday they would literally trade all four of their dogs for him. Granted I'm sure if I said yes they wouldn't.

To me, Jäger is the ideal GSD. He isn't an all prey dog that can be taught to bite "for real" but if I knifed him in the side he'd scream foul play and get outta dodge. He's the kinda dog that you stick hit and he likes it and returns it. The kinda dog that just wants to take turns trading blows until we see who is the last standing. 

Sadly, Katya, while still very much a nice balance of aggression and prey, under the current judging will always outscore Jäger in IPO. I've been told and "pressured" to do PSA by a bunch of folks with Jäger b/c they say he will be appreciated in that venue like Katya is appreciated in IPO... 

still, in my mind, I would change nothing about Jäger, and I'd have katya be more aloof and less openly trusting of strangers. In the IPO world though, Katya is more what is currently sought after

And at the breed survey I did there were dogs on the razors edge of crapping their pants at my "kinda courage test" that were rated "pronounced".. I wanted to be like "Huh?? Would you like to see 'pronounced', b/c I can go get a dog out he trailer and show you what pronounced really looks like'.

I'll make my next video a display of social aggression / civil aggression, turning on and off just like my video about dominance/submission. I've used jager for this many times, showing people how you approach a dog and what real aggression looks like, as well as how approach a dog


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## 4TheDawgies

hunterisgreat said:


> I'll make my next video a display of social aggression / civil aggression, turning on and off just like my video about dominance/submission. I've used jager for this many times, showing people how you approach a dog and what real aggression looks like, as well as how approach a dog


I would personally love to see this! Can't wait!


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## lhczth

You need to train with some different people, Hunter.  

We did a demo of this for a 4-H group to show them how the dog can turn on when threatened and then turn off when there is no longer a threat. Most of the kids were more than willing to come down and love on my bitch right after watching her want to eat my helper (some of the adults less so, LOL). 

Hunter, I saw your dog's sire at the 2006 regionals and he was very approachable off the field. Nate had him out hanging around after the trial. Kids were visiting him and petting him, other people came up to see him. Very clear dog.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> You need to train with some different people, Hunter.
> 
> We did a demo of this for a 4-H group to show them how the dog can turn on when threatened and then turn off when there is no longer a threat. Most of the kids were more than willing to come down and love on my bitch right after watching her want to eat my helper (some of the adults less so, LOL).
> 
> Hunter, I saw your dog's sire at the 2006 regionals and he was very approachable off the field. Nate had him out hanging around after the trial. Kids were visiting him and petting him, other people came up to see him. Very clear dog.


Train with different people b/c they are scared of Jäger or because I have to make videos to illustrate things to club members? lol. I'm working hard to get our club in tip top shape. Wait till you guys see the monster of a border collie I work that will be doing is BH & IPO1 as soon as he is old enough (10 months old now).

Jäger is a clone of Stuka with a deeper bark and slightly beefier build. Same temperament though... its just the way people act towards him. This is my opinion, and I've heard this from several folks familiar with Stuka and Brawnson, and from someone who did a ton of helper work with Stuka and has also has worked/still works Jäger a great deal. He is one of the few helpers that isn't scared or always jumpy around Jäger, and I think thats because he can read a dog extremely well. I think because of the way he just silently stares at people it puts them off. Oddly people in public are more comfortable coming up and interacting than seasoned helpers lol. I think its hilarious that this is the way it is. 

Our club is a pretty junior new club (started in 2010, I joined in Jan 2011, and I'm the first to IPO1 a dog, and the first to IPO2 a dog, and will be the first to IPO3 a dog). For a while we didn't have a second helper so I had to use club members to work on what I could as a handler, and do the other helper work myself on him. As you can see below, this is a club member, and she is less scared of Jäger nearly any actual helpers I work him on. Obviously if I was at all worried about what he would do I would never put an inexperienced, unprotective-geared person in front of him like this.


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## lhczth

Find a club that isn't afraid of your dog. 

People respect my dogs in the clubs I train with, but they aren't freaking out that my dogs might bite them at any time. Well, except one of the newer helpers who was a bit nervous around Deja the first time he worked her. All I did was told him not to slip the sleeve until I was there.  Of course I have always been lucky to train with people who knew and worked dogs like ours.


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## lhczth

I have a tough time watching videos so won't be able to see yours.


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## Lilie

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, they want that but at the same time, the dog can't be aggressive...  or show any trait a dog would show in certain situations.
> 
> Oh the irony...


And they don't want to put any time or effort into training.


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## pets4life

in hunters video katya seems more serious and scary in her protection training but jag seems moer scary to look at size and looks

but katya intensity is scary she looks like she would rip someone up in a real situation and spit them out lol shes so full of fire i really like her.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> Find a club that isn't afraid of your dog.
> 
> People respect my dogs in the clubs I train with, but they aren't freaking out that my dogs might bite them at any time. Well, except one of the newer helpers who was a bit nervous around Deja the first time he worked her. All I did was told him not to slip the sleeve until I was there.  Of course I have always been lucky to train with people who knew and worked dogs like ours.


Well, they don't "freak out" per se... they just have unfounded fear.


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## Mrs.K

pets4life said:


> in hunters video katya seems more serious and scary in her protection training but jag seems moer scary to look at size and looks
> 
> but katya intensity is scary she looks like she would rip someone up in a real situation and spit them out lol shes so full of fire i really like her.


The problem with videos is that it's really hard to see the difference for some people. You can't see the eyes in the video and the eyes are an important factor. That's how a lot of helpers judge a dog.


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## pets4life

mrs k do u do protection training? I did not think there is any in ur city.


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> The problem with videos is that it's really hard to see the difference for some people. You can't see the eyes in the video and the eyes are an important factor. That's how a lot of helpers judge a dog.


Well what you saw in that video was me working Katya in high aggression ("Pass Auf!", turning her one and off.. we were working on control under higher aggression levels that day). Jäger, because inexperienced or non-experienced helpers (or stand-ins) do not know how to work a dog in aggression and don't know how to react to the billion things a dog may do, is only worked on "regular people" in high prey drive. In that video it was working on listening/not anticipating commands, the callout, the rear transport, and just general OB. The club member is a) not intimidating or challenging, b) the wedge brings him more into prey, and c) I'm not asking for aggression. That is Jäger working in prey drive.


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> Well what you saw in that video was me working Katya in high aggression ("Pass Auf!", turning her one and off.. we were working on control under higher aggression levels that day). Jäger, because inexperienced or non-experienced helpers (or stand-ins) do not know how to work a dog in aggression and don't know how to react to the billion things a dog may do, is only worked on "regular people" in high prey drive. In that video it was working on listening/not anticipating commands, the callout, the rear transport, and just general OB. The club member is a) not intimidating or challenging, b) the wedge brings him more into prey, and c) I'm not asking for aggression. That is Jäger working in prey drive.


That doesn't change the fact that while videos are nice and educational, you still have to see it for yourself to truly understand what exactly you are looking at.

@Pets4Life: that doesn't mean I'm not doing it or have not been in contact with it.


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## msvette2u

hunterisgreat said:


> Well, they don't "freak out" per se... they just have unfounded fear.


It seems like bad protection training would be worse than none at all


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> It seems like bad protection training would be worse than none at all


It is. That is why I rather don't train at all instead of going somewhere that could mess up the dogs. It's easier to train a green dog than trying to correct what somebody has messed up


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## hunterisgreat

This is not bad training, so we are clear. They still do exactly what I need them to do. Its just most dogs they will talk while looking at the handler, and dogs they fear they won't fully take their eyes off of, and you'll catch flinches here and there. Besides, everytime someone flinches when I send Jäger in to work under aggression, those flinches just up his performance and make him feel like he's the baddest mofo that ever walked the earth... so in many aspects it is very nice to have a helper genuinely fear a dog, depending on the dog and what you are doing. A helper that is indifferent to the dog will communicate he is unimpressed and not threatened, and this can profoundly impact a dog's confidence level.


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## Liesje

lhczth said:


> Find a club that isn't afraid of your dog.
> 
> People respect my dogs in the clubs I train with, but they aren't freaking out that my dogs might bite them at any time. Well, except one of the newer helpers who was a bit nervous around Deja the first time he worked her. All I did was told him not to slip the sleeve until I was there.  Of course I have always been lucky to train with people who knew and worked dogs like ours.


I know Deja can be serious but I can also handle her for show stuff and she doesn't scare me, and part of that confidence is that I know Lisa has control over her dog and would step in well before anyone handling her dog could be at risk. Often I fear dogs because of the owners/handlers, not the dog!!


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## pets4life

mrs k you can get a decent idea though katya seemed pretty real there but hunter would know best since it is his dog.


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## hunterisgreat

pets4life said:


> mrs k you can get a decent idea though katya seemed pretty real there but hunter would know best since it is his dog.


She was pretty real. I was asking for her to show aggression, then stop, then show aggression again.


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## Mrs.K

pets4life said:


> mrs k you can get a decent idea though katya seemed pretty real there but hunter would know best since it is his dog.


Absolutely agree.


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## lhczth

Liesje said:


> I know Deja can be serious but I can also handle her for show stuff and she doesn't scare me, and part of that confidence is that I know Lisa has control over her dog and would step in well before anyone handling her dog could be at risk. Often I fear dogs because of the owners/handlers, not the dog!!


 
Yes, often, as Anne as mentioned earlier, the issue is the handlers and not the dogs.


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## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> Yes, often, as Anne as mentioned earlier, the issue is the handlers and not the dogs.


That and dogs will defer to their handler rather than a person they don't have a bond/relationship with.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> Yes, often, as Anne as mentioned earlier, the issue is the handlers and not the dogs.


Tell me about it. All from handler error. All in the last ~3 months or so:


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## Mrs.K

And I thought, I was torn up...


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## Debbieg

Very informative thread. I had originally been told that Benny was FA, and then Dominant Aggressive. Now I think his behavior is for the most part appropriate. 
Benny will also easily react when being stared at, mostly by men. He also reacts when approached slowly. Don't know if he would bite, because I have never let it get to that point. He does not like being touched by strangers, ( neither do I) so I do my best to not allow this. I have seen how remaining very calm and confident helps him tolerate strangers up close talking with me. He just lays down, but stays watchful. 

He is extremely good with children, and if he sees a small child crying will want to go and lick their face.
He is protective of his home and pack, including our other dogs and cats. He is definitely my dog, but seems to feel responsible for other family members. 

He will also light up easily if stared at by another large male dog, but will ignore little dogs that flip out on him

If we allow a stranger to come in the house he will bark and stay real close to them. I give him a place command and but he keeps and eye on them.

If he is with me at an outdoor event and my husband wanders off with his dog, Benny barks, and get agitated, wanting to keep the pack together.
I do not take him to dog parks, but occasionally we take our dogs to a schoolyard and meet with a few friends and their dogs and Benny is a bit of the "fun police"


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> And I thought, I was torn up...


?????


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## GSDElsa

lhczth said:


> You need to train with some different people, Hunter.


Agreed  I don't know many good helpers that are scared of any dog, yet along one that doesn't act like an insane idiot. Definitely training with the wrong people.


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## lhczth

I have worked with some. Not all helpers are geared to work strong dogs. Many just want to play games and really don't belong wearing a sleeve.


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## GSDElsa

Then they aren't good helpers IMO!


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