# "Old Bloodlines?'



## Emoore

This is probably a really stupid question.

I see several breeders saying that they breed the "old bloodlines." This is confusing to me. I'm assuming that their puppies' parents or grandparents aren't dogs that were around 40 or 50 years ago, because those dogs are dead and they didn't have the technology to freeze semen or embryos back then. Just because of the reproductive lifespan of GSDs, their dogs have to be many generations removed from the '50s or '40s or whatever else you consider the golden age of GSDs-- just like everybody else's bloodlines are. 

If these are bloodlines that have been kept "pure" and free from influx of new blood since back then, I'm not so sure that's a good thing genetically. 

So what makes them "old?" :thinking:


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## cliffson1

Technically, the way you describe it there are no "old bloodlines".


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## Emoore

Then what do people mean when they say, "I'm breeding dogs from the old bloodlines?" It confuses me. But I'm easy to confuse.


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## Fast

I think it's just a way for breeders to hype their breeding or lines as being different or something rare. Just a bunch of sales hype and a way for people to make their dogs special.

"Come to me. I'm the only one with rare magic beans."


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## cliffson1

This term "old bloodlines" often refers to direct descent back to older lines, and the key being, retaining the type of those lines. Of course if you were not familar with these "type" dogs of the particular era you are referencing, its kinda of deceiving to really advertise this and know you are breeding true to this. But there are some older breeders that are breeding the type dogs consistent with dogs of 40,50 years ago. Not many of these people left, but some. I smile when I see a thirty year old using the terms "old bloodlines" less they are continuing what their family has started years before. JMO


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## Whiteshepherds

I think it can be confusing too and agree with whoever said it's sometimes used as advertising hype. 

The only site I've seen that tries to explain what they mean when they use the term, is Rin Tin Tin kennels. They say they're one of the oldest continuous bloodlines. (107 years)

Whether you agree with the type of dogs they produce structurally, or question if the temperament has remained true to type, (and how would any of us really know unless we knew the original dogs from the line?) it's an interesting read and gives a better understanding of why at least one breeder uses the term. 

RIN TIN TIN Story


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> This term "old bloodlines" often refers to direct descent back to older lines, and the key being, retaining the type of those lines.


So why use the term Old Bloodlines? It's no the blood that's old it's the type. Why not "Old Fashioned" or "Old type"?


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## gagsd

Fast said:


> So why use the term Old Bloodlines? It's no the blood that's old it's the type. Why not "Old Fashioned" or "Old type"?


Because those are big and hairy !

Not to mention "old-fashioned" makes me think of my favorite Dunkin Donuts doughnut!


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## Mrs.K

Fast said:


> So why use the term Old Bloodlines? It's no the blood that's old it's the type. Why not "Old Fashioned" or "Old type"?


I guess it's because old-fashioned is already "mis-used" by the "bigger is better" type of breeders. If you'd tell me that you have old-fashioned GSD's than I'd already have a picture of a grossly overweight, superbig out of standard German Shepherd.


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## Doc

Old bloodline, old fashion, old world, type German shepherd example from Stephanitz's book:

A "Swabian" shepherd dog - part of the foundational bloodline of the German shepherd dog.










And yes, as Cliff said, there are breeders still around breeding dogs like this.


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## HeidiW

Really who ?


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## Emoore

Doc said:


> Old bloodline, old fashion, old world, type German shepherd example from Stephanitz's book:


Of course, back then they were "new fashioned."


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## Whiteshepherds

Doc said:


> Old bloodline, old fashion, old world, type German shepherd example from Stephanitz's book:
> 
> A "Swabian" shepherd dog - part of the foundational bloodline of the German shepherd dog.
> 
> And yes, as Cliff said, there are breeders still around breeding dogs like this.


Doc, was there ever a registered breed of dog called the Swabian Shepherd or Swabian Sheepdog, or was the term used to describe shepherding dogs that came from that region of Germany in the 1880's? 
In older GSD pedigrees I see some ancestors listed as either Swabian Sheep Dogs or Swabian Blood-no name or kennel association.

Would this organization be dealing with dogs that once fell into the Swabian sheepdog catagory? Startseite - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde (right click on site to translate. I also translated the Origin page)


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## Chicagocanine

Doc said:


> And yes, as Cliff said, there are breeders still around breeding dogs like this.


Do you have any examples of these breeders? I'd love to see their dogs!


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## Doc

Emoore said:


> Of course, back then they were "new fashioned."


Not hardly.

Swabian dogs were doing search and rescue during the 1400s, Thyringers were yard dogs back in the 1600s. All the dogs used to create the German shepherd exsited centuries before someone crossed them together - so the "bloodlines" in and of themselves are old, very old. The only thing "new" and not always better, is how "breeders" have crossed and dabbled in combining different dogs with different percentages of the various bloodlines and genetic combinations and in many cases, ruined the usefullness of a well balanced breed.

But if one doesn't know the history of the breed or the dogs/bloodlines/genetics used to create it, then nothing that is said about the past really matters. JMO


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## Emoore

So the "old bloodlines" are dogs that look like the ones anywhere from 60 years ago to 600 years ago?


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## Doc

Whiteshepherds said:


> Doc, was there ever a registered breed of dog called the Swabian Shepherd or Swabian Sheepdog, or was the term used to describe shepherding dogs that came from that region of Germany in the 1880's?
> In older GSD pedigrees I see some ancestors listed as either Swabian Sheep Dogs or Swabian Blood-no name or kennel association.
> 
> Would this organization be dealing with dogs that once fell into the Swabian sheepdog catagory? Startseite - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde (right click on site to translate. I also translated the Origin page)


The Swabian dogs were not registered dogs per say - at least not in Stephanitz "official" register. Stephanitz did turn to well know Swabian dogs (Audifax von Grafrath and many does from the Krone kennel in Wurttemberg) in his breeding attempts ( Max wasn't a very good breeder and relied on the farmers that bred dogs for there flocks ) to incorporate much needed traits. The dogs in the Swabian region had some particular qualities that were lacking in Max's Thuringer lines namely; the Swabian dogs were steady, calm, quiet, resiliant with high bite thresholds and intense "eye". These were the shepherd dogs - raised by farmers for a purpose - to "protect" the flocks. Not necessarily to attack/kill any predator but rather protect and keep the flock safe from harm. Max's Thuringer line dog was not a shepherd dog but rather a "yard" dog - bred to protect the belongings of the rich city folks. This type dog was quick to bite, quick to chase, intense in its pursue of intruders on the estate lands - a very different dog than the Swabian dogs. I think what Stephanitz saw as a solider while watching a dog tend a flock of sheep had to be more of a Swabian dog than Thuringer. But Max's desire was for a dog that could do more than just tend flocks and work on the farm. He wanted a dog that could that but also have a "protection" side - combining the best qualities of the Swabian and Thuringer. 
The issue today is that those ideas have been tossed aside in favor of a "specialized" type of German shepherd - one that excels in "protection" and one that is a "show" dog and forgotten are the foundational traits of shepherding or real farm work.
Stephanitz also recognized the value of the Swabian dogs in time of war. In WWI the Swabian Service dogs and the ambulance dogs were Swabian bloodlines due to their innate qualities and ability to calmly search for wounded and assist in helping in the rescue of the solders.

i wasn't able to read the link you provided.


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## Doc

Emoore said:


> So the "old bloodlines" are dogs that look like the ones anywhere from 60 years ago to 600 years ago?


You have no real interest in old bloodlines - you've already stated that. You will read whatever you want into anything that is said that contradicts your point of view. I choose not to engage in this type of thread anymore. I'm not making this up - it's all in the historical records of the breed. Once that is read, I will be happy to talk about this wonderful breed.


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## Doc

Chicagocanine said:


> Do you have any examples of these breeders? I'd love to see their dogs!


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## JPrice

I find it really interesting to look at the history and see just how much the breed has changed since the beginning. My question is...do you think it would be better to still have the well rounded gsd of old, or do you like the fact that there are ones who have certain specializations in their blood? In comparing them to humans (which is silly) it is always better IMO to be specialized in something rather than being a jack of all trades, but in dogs I'm guessing when being specialized in one are they are completely lacking from another aspect.


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## JakodaCD OA

not a breeder here, nor ever claimed to be, and not Doc, but for me personally to answer your Q Jprice,,,I DO think it would be better to have the well rounded gsd of "old"....Isn't that what a GSD is supposed to be?

I would rather have a jack of all trades vs one that specialized in one thing.
I think the GSD SHOULD be a jack of all trades, good at alot of things vs good at one thing.


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## JPrice

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would rather have a jack of all trades vs one that specialized in one thing.
> I think the GSD SHOULD be a jack of all trades, good at alot of things vs good at one thing.


I think I would have to agree with you and Doc


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## Emoore

Doc said:


> You have no real interest in old bloodlines - you've already stated that. You will read whatever you want into anything that is said that contradicts your point of view. I choose not to engage in this type of thread anymore. I'm not making this up - it's all in the historical records of the breed. Once that is read, I will be happy to talk about this wonderful breed.


How do I know if I'm interested in them? I don't have any fracking clue what they are! That's why I asked? I don't know enough about them to have a point of view to contradict. 

I'm not currently in the market for a dog, no, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know what people mean when they say their dog is from old bloodlines. When somebody says their dog is from Czech/WGSL/WGWL/ASL, I have a pretty good picture in my head of what they're talking about. When somebody says "old bloodlines" I get a big question mark. Just trying to learn.


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## Doc

Emoore said:


> How do I know if I'm interested in them? I don't have any fracking clue what they are! That's why I asked? I don't know enough about them to have a point of view to contradict.
> 
> I'm not currently in the market for a dog, no, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know what people mean when they say their dog is from old bloodlines. When somebody says their dog is from Czech/WGSL/WGWL/ASL, I have a pretty good picture in my head of what they're talking about. When somebody says "old bloodlines" I get a big question mark. Just trying to learn.


Well the GSD world would be better off if breeders would just agree to say they breed German shepherd dogs. But most people are into "lables" so we have broken down the breed into separate "types" - all of which came from the same genetics. Along the way people's pride, greed, motavation, caused a great divide among the German shepherd. So we no longer are breeders of German shepherds but rather breeders of Czech, WGWL, ASL, etc. German shepherds.
When I hear the term old bloodlines it makes me think of the German shepherd that use to win in the ring one day and pass the SchH test the next. Back then the SchH test was either pass/fail and much more of a test of a dog then todays sport version. And the ring winners were usually handled by the breeder or dog owner, not some "handler" that is a master of hiding a dogs flaw when in front of the judge.
IMO, a german shepherd was created to be a jack of all trades and master of none. It is becoming more difficult to find those German shepherd dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds

Doc said:


> When I hear the term old bloodlines it makes me think of the German shepherd that use to win in the ring one day and pass the SchH test the next. Back then the SchH test was either pass/fail and much more of a test of a dog then todays sport version. And the ring winners were usually handled by the breeder or dog owner, not some "handler" that is a master of hiding a dogs flaw when in front of the judge.
> IMO, a german shepherd was created to be a jack of all trades and master of none. It is becoming more difficult to find those German shepherd dogs.


If I'm reading the right information, the first Schutzhund trial was held in the US in 1970. How were GSD's in the US being tested before then? Were they doing Schutzhund and just not having official trials?


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## Andaka

Mostly they were doing obedience competitions.


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## cliffson1

Would military/police/herding before 1970 be considered testing?????Please!


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## Andaka

cliffson1 said:


> Would military/police/herding before 1970 be considered testing?????Please!


I would consider that testing. But most of the American breeder's that I knew in the '70's were using obedience to test their dogs' working abilities.


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## gagsd

Here are my two big hairy dogs..... Just can't bring myself to call them old-fashioned though. Really makes me want a doughnut and cup of coffee !


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## cliffson1

Andaka,
Frankly, prior to 1970, people weren't testing their dogs for working ability because you didn't see the lack of working ability in most German shepherds of that time. I can hardly ever remember seeing a German Shepherd in the fifties/sixties that had the worried look, tucked tails, exaggerated shyness, etc. This is mostly an occurence of the popularity of the "show type" that arose after Lance. In those days you could buy a German Shepherd from anybody and you had a strong dog that fit into family, if it went to be trained usually did very well. Dogs were routinely donated to police and military with no prior training, just raised in family and did well in the work. All this specialization in breeding, testing, resume's for owners, lines of German Shepherd, were not major considerations and the breed was a leader in the world.


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## Emoore

OK, so are these dogs that have been bred continuously since that time with an eye towards keeping the kind of dogs they were back then, or are they being re-created?


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## Doc

Emoore said:


> OK, so are these dogs that have been bred continuously since that time with an eye towards keeping the kind of dogs they were back then, or are they being re-created?


I'm not sure what you are asking but it is getting more and more difficult to find German shepherds that are well balanced. The genetic combinations in many of today's dogs will probably never return to the type of dog Cliff, Ann, and others remember. That being said, there are still a few breeders who haven't deviated their breeding program over the past 30+ years and are still producing "old type" dogs. Unfortunately, for many of these breeders there are more days behind them then in front of them. And from the looks of things, there aren't many up and coming breeders that care for all that "old school" stuff.


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## Fast

Doc said:


> Back then the SchH test was either pass/fail and much more of a test of a dog then todays sport version.


Schutzhund has always had a point structure.


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> In those days you could buy a German Shepherd from *anybody* and you had a strong dog that fit into family, if it went to be trained usually did very well.


Sure you could. And kids had to ride their unicorns to school, uphill both ways, in blizzards.


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## Whiteshepherds

Doc said:


> I'm not sure what you are asking but it is getting more and more difficult to find German shepherds that are well balanced. The genetic combinations in many of today's dogs will probably never return to the type of dog Cliff, Ann, and others remember. That being said, there are still a few breeders who haven't deviated their breeding program over the past 30+ years and are still producing "old type" dogs.


Today, if someone posted Lance's pedigree on the forum and asked if he'd make a good stud dog, I think the majority of people would go off on a tangent because he has SCH and CH in the pedigree. By today's standards he's a mix of types. Times certainly have changed.

My first question is, was he well balanced or just a pretty dog? (He really was nice looking)

Second question. If you could stop the clock in the 60's and have Lance today, would he be considered an asset or a liability to the breed? Would you use him for stud?


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## Andaka

I think the problem wasn't in Lance himself, but rather the tendency of american breeders to flock to the popular sire. There were 4 males in the "F" litter Arbywood, and once Lance started doing well in the show ring, American breeders started wanting one of him for themselves. So they bred to the "F" litters boys, then they bred to Lance after he was awarded Grand Victor in 1967. You only have to look at the number of Lance progeny with "ROM" behind their name to see how much of an influence he had on the American Show Line dogs. Then he was linebred and inbred on, and his rather balanced type morphed into the exagerated style you often see now.

Would I breed to Lance -- maybe.


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## Marytess

> Originally Posted by *Doc*
> I'm not sure what you are asking but it is getting more and more difficult to find German shepherds that are well balanced. The genetic combinations in many of today's dogs will probably never return to the type of dog Cliff, Ann, and others remember. That being said, there are still a few breeders who haven't deviated their breeding program over the past 30+ years and are still producing "old type" dogs. Unfortunately, for many of these breeders there are more days behind them then in front of them. And from the looks of things, there aren't many up and coming breeders that care for all that "old school" stuff.


Buster's from "old school" or "old type" dogs. and I must say that I like this "type" of dogs more than the "new/showline" ones.
his breeder is doing this for more than 30yrs. 

here's Buster:


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## Doc

Fast said:


> Schutzhund has always had a point structure.


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## MicheleMarie

my new puppy too has "old lines":

Pedigree contains:
Troll Nachbarschaft BSP X3
Jume vom Petz BSP
Askia Foschgraben BSP X3
Arek Stoffelblick BSP X3
Gildo Korbelbach BSP X3
Branka Pendelbach (littermate to Boy Pendelbach BSP)
Pike Schafbauchmuhle BSP X2
Wotan Barenfang BSP WUSV
Fado Karthago BSP WUSV
Belshik Eicken-Bruche BSP WUSV X2
Tim Abfuhr LGA- top european sire
Lex BSP/Lola van de Sijsjeslijmer X2 


**of note, this mating brings a 4-5 linebreeding to the L-litter (Lex,Lola) van de Sijsjeslijmer. Lex is a son of Arek Stoffelblick BSP and the sire of Wotan Barenfang BSP WUSV. 
STAMM of Lex/ Lola goes to a Drigon daughter!
We believe this influx of the old blood strongly supports the 3-4 Pike influence brought within the pedigree.


my puppy is level headed, balanced, engaged without being overly excitable etc.


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## RubyTuesday

> I can hardly ever remember seeing a German Shepherd in the fifties/sixties that had the worried look, tucked tails, exaggerated shyness, etc.


Cliff, I haven't worked, shown & titled dogs like you have, but I've adored 'em from my earliest days. The dogs I remember from the 50s & 60s are indeed a far cry from what's prevalent in the ring today. They were confident, fearless, discerning & trustworthy, hardly ever inappropriately aggressive or over reactive. They were companionable, level headed, generally healthy & long lived.

It's not just GSD that have been adversely affected. Look at Collies, Cockers, St Bernards or English Bulldogs. Absolutely heartbreaking. I do not believe anyone can truly love their dogs & breed for such dysfunction. The show ring isn't just a beauty pageant. It's a surreal, even obscene, 'beauty' pageant too often enamored of freakishness & deformities in the mad pursuit of twisted extremes. I have yet to understand why these unnatural, frequently damaging cosmetic extremes hold any appeal for anyone. And yet they do.


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## GSDElsa

MicheleMarie said:


> my new puppy too has "old lines":
> 
> Pedigree contains:
> Troll Nachbarschaft BSP X3
> Jume vom Petz BSP
> Askia Foschgraben BSP X3
> Arek Stoffelblick BSP X3
> Gildo Korbelbach BSP X3
> Branka Pendelbach (littermate to Boy Pendelbach BSP)
> Pike Schafbauchmuhle BSP X2
> Wotan Barenfang BSP WUSV
> Fado Karthago BSP WUSV
> Belshik Eicken-Bruche BSP WUSV X2
> Tim Abfuhr LGA- top european sire
> Lex BSP/Lola van de Sijsjeslijmer X2
> 
> 
> **of note, this mating brings a 4-5 linebreeding to the L-litter (Lex,Lola) van de Sijsjeslijmer. Lex is a son of Arek Stoffelblick BSP and the sire of Wotan Barenfang BSP WUSV.
> STAMM of Lex/ Lola goes to a Drigon daughter!
> We believe this influx of the old blood strongly supports the 3-4 Pike influence brought within the pedigree.
> 
> 
> my puppy is level headed, balanced, engaged without being overly excitable etc.


The dogs you are talking about really aren't the types being discussed in this thread for the most part....

This is probably more the type of "working line" dog that is being talked about:

VA 3 Bernd vom Lierberg - German shepherd dog


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## Mrs.K

MicheleMarie said:


> my new puppy too has "old lines":
> 
> Pedigree contains:
> Troll Nachbarschaft BSP X3
> Jume vom Petz BSP
> Askia Foschgraben BSP X3
> Arek Stoffelblick BSP X3
> Gildo Korbelbach BSP X3
> Branka Pendelbach (littermate to Boy Pendelbach BSP)
> Pike Schafbauchmuhle BSP X2
> Wotan Barenfang BSP WUSV
> Fado Karthago BSP WUSV
> Belshik Eicken-Bruche BSP WUSV X2
> Tim Abfuhr LGA- top european sire
> Lex BSP/Lola van de Sijsjeslijmer X2
> 
> 
> **of note, this mating brings a 4-5 linebreeding to the L-litter (Lex,Lola) van de Sijsjeslijmer. Lex is a son of Arek Stoffelblick BSP and the sire of Wotan Barenfang BSP WUSV.
> STAMM of Lex/ Lola goes to a Drigon daughter!
> We believe this influx of the old blood strongly supports the 3-4 Pike influence brought within the pedigree.
> 
> 
> my puppy is level headed, balanced, engaged without being overly excitable etc.


 :congratulations:

I like what you picked , however it's more recent bloodlines, even though Gildo and the Baerenfang line isn't "that" much out there anymore. It's getting harder to find them in the third, let alone second Generation.


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## cliffson1

Fast,
We have different points of reference in terms of the 50's/60's. I'll leave it at that.


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## MicheleMarie

Mrs.K said:


> :congratulations:
> 
> I like what you picked , however it's more recent bloodlines, even though Gildo and the Baerenfang line isn't "that" much out there anymore. It's getting harder to find them in the third, let alone second Generation.


thanks! i plan on researching the entire pedigree when i have time  I love learning more and more about it!


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