# "working the grip"



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Okay, I hear this phrase in schutzhund training. I guess I have never been certain that I knew exactly what it means or entails?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It means you are working on getting a deeper, stronger bite where the sleeve is all the way to the back of the dog's mouth and he's not coming off any time soon.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

... and what are the reasons the grip might be less than desirable?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

A shallow or weak bite is undesirable.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chewing the sleeve is also undesireable...as is thrashing it when slipped from the helper. 
Thats why we run them around to keep the firm grip then calmly stroking the dog while cradling their chin to re-enforce that calm grip. If they start to chew, you out them to discourage that.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

The desired grip is hard, full, and calm, and in the center of the bite bar. There are many reasons that a dog's grip might not achieve that ideal:

- too young.

- poor training.

- inhibited by the handler.

- afraid of the helper.

- distracted by other influences.

- lack of confidence.

- poor nerves.

- too much training pressure.

- bad teeth, or another medical problem.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am guessing there are several reasons a poor grip could be occurring. Obviously, genetics is one of them. Defensiveness? Conflict with handler? 

I see some people who I think are working the grip get back in the sleeve and do several things with the dog. I was wondering if all that working was effective.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Samba said:


> II see some people who I think are working the grip get back in the sleeve and do several things with the dog. I was wondering if all that working was effective.


Jan Kokx, for example, seems to be pretty good at it, and some people swear that it works for them. But I'm sure it only really works some of the time, and only lasts for so long. If the dog is under enough pressure for long enough he will probably revert to whatever behavior his genetics and foundation training will allow.

The other question is, are you trying to make the grips a little better so a very good dog can make V, or so a weak dog can pass a trial? I suspect the outcomes will not be the same.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

"working the grip"; i thought it
described what you do when you
catch them chewing the sofa,
your shoes, counter surfing, etc.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The good grip comes before you ever offer it. That means the helper sees that the dog is at the right level of drive, at a level that I suppose you could call balanced for that dog and then the grip comes. If the helper is there trying to fix it after the initial grip, it is because the work before the grip was not correct . Most" working on the grip " is to teach the dog to counter or hit back/to re-enforce aggression or to re-enforce it when the dog tries to stop the helper or pull as the helper is turned away in flight. Again, what the helper does before the grip comes will determine how well the dog does those thngs also.
Trying to fix chewing, half grips etc, would be work the helper would do before he offers the grip.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are two things that cause bad grips, bad helper work (as Anne says above) and genetics.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

I'd like to throw out a question for discussion since someone mentioned that "thrashing of the sleeve" is undesireable. Why? What about a dog that thrashes the sleeve once it's slipped, drops it, and then initiates interaction with the helper again? I'm not talking about any specific dog.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I'd like to throw out a question for discussion since someone mentioned that "thrashing of the sleeve" is undesireable. Why?


Define thrash. Do you mean a dog that throws it to the ground and kind of attacks it or do you mean a dog that holds it and shakes it and then drops it?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ike does that. He throws it on the ground, kind of lay on top of it (or he will put his paws over the sleeve) and attacks it - like he wants to eat it for dinner.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Jason, do you mean he wraps his legs around it?


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Define thrash. Do you mean a dog that throws it to the ground and kind of attacks it or do you mean a dog that holds it and shakes it and then drops it?


Once the sleeve is slipped, dog thrashes it then drops it, and makes eye contact with helper. They might take a nip at the dead sleeve. Dog also will try to thrash the sleeve while the helper tries to lock up. I've seen inidividuals demand a dog hold the sleeve calmly after it's slipped... almost teaching this like they would the DB "hold", and correcting the dog if it's not done (hold).


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

The reason I'm bringing this up because there's a debat about this at my training club. Two thought processes about it. I'm just curious as to what others outside of club think.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Vandal said:


> Jason, do you mean he wraps his legs around it?


Anne, here is a clip from a few weeks ago. When he has the sleeve, I can tell he really wants to take it to the ground. At 0:51 and at 2:16 you see some of that behavior.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

This is my opinion based on what I "think" both you and Jason are saying, which are two related things but with different results.
Both are related to fight with the helper but one of them, ( what Jason "seems" to be saying), can also be caused by a confict with the handler. It also has to do with the space between the helper and the dog. All dogs have that space where they will start to fight the helper even though he no longer is wearing the sleeve. I call the behavior of torquing the sleeve, "hitting back". IMO, this is something that should be re-enforced in the dog but it has to be done in a way where the helper does not overdo it and cause problems. Meaning, when the dog uses that power, the helper respects it and does not continue to fight and try to over-power the dog. IMO, this is an important skill for the dog to have because it is a way for the dog to take control of the fight but again, the helper must allow the dog to do that.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok Jason, I see it. That is what I thought you meant

Edited to add: Conflict with the handler is only one reason for that behavior. It can be more than one but mostly it is from fight and being put higher in that state than the dog can channel.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, regarding handler conflict: do you mean the dog sees handler as competitor for the sleeve? The behavior is a whole lot worse with me than with the TD handling him (he is handling him in protection because they don't want him to develop a jumping hold and bark).


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There has to be a certain calmness in the handling and that is very hard to describe in words, or even in person for that matter. Usually , people new to training get kind of caught up in the excitement of protection work and are tense or excited etc and it adds just enough stimulation to disturb the dog and make him want to thrash it. I am always nagging the guy I train with to stop huffing and puffing when he handles his dog because he makes his dog hectic. I have seen dogs change immediately when someone more experienced takes the leash. 
You also have talked about Ike's possessive nature and that can play into it as well. The pole also puts the dogs in a higher state of fight. He gets better as it goes along there in the video. You can see him start to calm down a bit and it seems the helper changed a little bit as well. Turning away for a second when the dog bites helps channel the fight into prey work. Lots of people work the dogs more frontal than I do. I put the fight in and then turn away to relieve a little stress, so the dog knows that power is doing something.

edited to answer the question...lol.....Yes the dog can view the handler as competition.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The reason I'm bringing this up because there's a debat about this at my training club. Two thought processes about it. I'm just curious as to what others outside of club think.


May I ask what those two thought processes are? Or is it a club secret?


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Vandal said:


> May I ask what those two thought processes are? Or is it a club secret?


 
Okay, before "cocktail hour" starts.. let me see if I can explain what I'm observing from our club's discussions.

A dog that thrashes the sleeve, but doesn't necessarily want to possess the object in a calm manner (being craddled & sitting there calmly holding the sleeve), IMO, is a dog that enjoys the "fight" and the dead sleeve really doesn't have much value to that particular dog. The main discussion is that a dog should hold the sleeve calmly after it is slipped to help with drive satisfaction and/or capping of drive. Hence the concept that a dog that doesn't naturally do this, they should be taught how to.

The debates comes in when we have a dog that doesn't naturally want to exhibit that behavior (holding sleeve and being craddled) ~ my thoughts are why worry about teaching that behavior as it really isn't needed in the actual SchH trials.... (where in the trial does a dog have to sit there calmly and hold the sleeve?). I also have heard like I did in this thread that the thrashing of a sleeve is an undesirable behavior.. but, again in my novice opinion, as long as there is not evidence of conflict.. thrashing of the sleeve is an extension of that dog's fight drive. Why would you NOT want to encourage that behavior and make the dog feel like he has power through that behavior. 

The debate in my club is ~ should we accept what the dog brings to the field.. whether it's hold the sleeve after it is slipped or thrashing the **** out of it to make sure it's "dead" then re-engage the helper without any stimulation from the helper. Why do so many see that "thrashing" as undesirable.. as to me it shows "fight". Why do so many take so much time "teaching" a dog to hold the sleeve calmly and craddle that dog when the dog is uncomfortable with that.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think I may have confused the issue here because *I* know what I mean but I think I didn't explain it completely. You want the fight when the helper is wearing the sleeve but it is not exactly desirable for the dog to keep fighting when there is no more fight. Having said that, you would have to consider if the helper is still making a fight with the dog once it is slipped. Meaning, is he still right there in the dog's space or does he move away and lessen any challenge the dog may feel from him standing too close?
A dog who holds the sleeve full and maybe shakes it a couple of times while he is looking at the helper is not a big deal IMO. But, If he thrashes it and spits it out to go after the helper right away, usually, the helper has overloaded the dog and then is standing too close to the dog after it is slipped. Again, he is in the dog's space. All dogs have a space that the helper should be aware of. When I work my dogs, ( who like to fight), I am very aware of where the helper is and what he is doing when the sleeve is slipped. I stop far enough back from the helper so that my dog will not feel compelled to re-engage. I ask the helper to hold still and to make any adjustments with his body language that will help the dog hold it. That means that he stays further back and maybe turned to the side and not facing the dog, ( confrontation). 
When the dog is throwing the sleeve down and attacking it, or shaking it and spitting it out, a number of things can be going on. What I just said about the helper being too close, ( because being that close feels like a challenge to dogs with fight), too much stimulation with a dog who doesn't need loading or a nervous handler are the "usual suspects". Ike, for example, is a dog who does not need much stimulation, less is more for that dog. If the helper in the video was popping the whip over and over and running around loading him , I would expect to see more of the behavior that Jason was talking about. Also, you can see in the video, the helper backs way out of the picture once the sleeve is slipped. He is allowing Ike to unload a little. If he stood closer, I would expect to see things get difficult for the handler, meaning the dog would not be so willing to hold the sleeve calmly and the handler would then be using more force to try to keep him calm. 
IMO, that behavior of shaking and spitting the sleeve is not desirable BUT it does not have to be a case where the dog is forced to hold it. It can be as simple as the helper adjusting his work, . When you put too much into the dog, he cannot channel it without some of it "leaking", ( I hate that term but whatever). You can't fit 16 ounces in a 12 ounce cup but lots of helpers do too much and overload the dog, stay right there in front of the dog after they slip it and then want the handler to use force to contain all that stimulation in the dog. What I have done for dogs like that is put a short line on the sleeve and I hold the end of it, with my hand in the sleeve, When I slip it, I can move away from the dog but still have some control over the sleeve because my hand is already holding that line. I make more distance between me and the dog and I stand with my back to the dog or sideways, ( not confrontational), and keep a little tension or tug on the line once in a while so the dog feels compelled to possess it but not so compelled to spit it and come after me. 
Again, most of the time, this is something solved by the helper work. Yes, like I said in my other post, the handler can create hectic behavior in the dog but most of the time, it is the helper who creates the behavior you are talking about. What also works sometimes is to slip it and then run away really fast. The dog will hold it while he watches the helper running and if the helper stays standing at a distance in a more passive stance, sideways, not facing and confronting the dog, the dog will hold it calmly. 
The reason it matters is because the dog needs to learn where and when he can "unload" a bit. If he is always fighting, you will more than likely end up with an out problem or a dog who outs and re-bites. It is really important , IMO, that the dog knows WHERE to fight.
When I said fighting and hitting back is a positive behavior, I am talking about a dog who torques the sleeve when the helper is wearing it and when he threatens the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My dog does what Anne is saying. If the helper slips and is still in Nikon's space, he will give that sleeve some bleeping hard thrashes, often while looking at the helper. But this is different than dogs I see that bite weak and just chew and claw at the sleeve after it's slipped, not caring if the helper came up and smacked their ass. If the helper is not in Nikon's space, no thrashing, and he will hold and carry as long as I keep him moving. Once he stops moving, he sort of just sets it down and stands there over it. I never really worked on having him stand there with me cradling him. I guess if I had a dog that naturally did that, I'd use it to our advantage but Lynn I agree w/ you that if the dog's work is otherwise OK, why does it matter whether he holds the sleeve while I cradle, or he just sets it down and stands over it?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am trying to come up with the words to explain why it is important for the dog to be able to unload into the sleeve in training. No, the dog is not going to sit and hold the sleeve in the trial but it is not about teaching an exercise, it is about behavior and about channeling aggression into prey work. I used to be able to explain this really clearly but I have now forgotten what I said. lol. crap.....


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

I understand what you are saying Anne... like I said, I'm not talking about any particular dog.. as I love to watch from the side lines and observe the training sessions.. and then listen to the comments/discussions afterwards.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am not talking about any particular dog either but I might have been if I could see them from here. 
The truth of the matter is, as much as dogs are different, they are amazingly the same. They have the same traits to varying degrees and require helper work that brings those things into balance when the dog is doing SchH. 
What I have noticed is when the helper work is right for the dog,(and the handler is not a major disruption to that), everything works. Meaning, they bite full and hard, fight when threatened, hold and carry after the sleeve is slipped and so on. I always look at what the dog is doing after I slip it because for me, that is kind of a report card about my work. When the dog holds it calmly and with a hard/full bite and still is interested in what I am doing...I know I am working that dog correctly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is always the dog that won't do what is expected. From one week to another there may be a difference in how they "work the grip".
Of course it may be due to what happened the previous week, more pressure applied, causing the dog to be chewy or the dog maturing and finding he can work the helper with his confidence level gaining~maybe won't out on command.
Its interesting observe how that change affects things, carrying over sometimes to the other phases.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was tracking all day and missed all this discussion!

I have seen helpers go back and get into the sleeve and tug with the dog after they slipped it once. Sometimes they mess with the dog, putting pressure on the head etc. I always wondered why they did that? I think I have heard some say they were working on the grip, but I didn't understand it. 

The other day, upon working the two young dogs that we have, I was advised to work the dogs in prey and work the grips. At that point again, I wondered what that working grips thing meant. 

I guess that, according to the discussion, it could mean to work the dogs correctly in a manner that results in full, calm grips. Not to overload them or press them too hard or too lightly. 

Jason, what is the purpose of the collar corrections in the work with Ike? Is it to try to get him to bark, to sit?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba said:


> Jason, what is the purpose of the collar corrections in the work with Ike? Is it to try to get him to bark, to sit?


Definitely not to get him to bark. He kind of does that on his own lol. It's to get him to quit jumping. They want him to sit and bark and you see the helper was waiting for the moment when Ike sat back on his own and when he saw that, he rewarded Ike with a bite. It's like what Anne said ... he is just too high right now - in all three phases. We're working on turning his volume down some.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

THIS is what we don't want - Ike high as a kite lol.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

When Heist was Ike's age, he would not stay on the ground either. It was a bit frightening because he is a big dog who can jump really high. His daughter was even worse but now that she is 15 months old, it is about gone. Same thing happened with Heist. Making the sleeve more of the attraction helped both of them because both are very serious and were not yet sure where to channel it. Once we made it clear, the jumping dimished rather quickly.
I did not try to force either dog to stay on the ground with corrections since the pinch corrections can also stimulate the dog. In fact, we use little pops with the pinch to help the barking because it brings more aggression. Depends on the dog but if it is a dog who likes to fight, many times, what I just said is the case.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was curious as to the purpose as we use that type of action to get the dog higher in drive. It often works too.

Has he been taught that this is the correction for sitting? I wasn't clear that he was clear on the meaning.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What about bite box training? 

I have heard it mentioned as a way to work on grips by keeping the dog focused and having less interference from handling etc. I also believe the retraint and somewhat slippery surface removes a lot of the option for other behavior other than barking, (perhaps sitting) and gripping.

Has anyone done any work with such a thing? I have used a deck to send the dog to set up and bark and not be all jumping all about. It worked pretty well in the instances where we did it.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

There was one session after that where we checked the crap out of Ike and that just made him went ballistic at the helper (thankfully not at the handler lol). But those were not that little agitation taps. These were big whamo pops. But they made him very angry anyway haha. But the thing is the next session (2 days later), when we sent him to the helper; he rushed the helper and then checked himself about 2 ft away from him and barked (anticipating the check from the line no doubt). And since then we have worked him twice more and about 80% of the time he would check himself. Once in awhile you have to remind him "Hey, hey, put on the brakes. Stop." The last session we used the line more as a calming thing. Ike likes to scream. Not bark. Scream as he runs at the helper. We have found that if we let him scream for about 2 seconds and then pop him once on the collar, he will settle down into a good bark. If we check him before he has a chance to scream, then it will not be pretty. He will just scream the whole time.

The interesting thing with Ike is he is tough but not hard. People have describe him as "handler sensitive" - meaning "correction" makes a BIG impression on him and he learns from them very quickly. I am not sure he is "biddable", not maybe "trainable" is the word?


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

"Flying" dogs may not be correct... but they do make for great pictures 










(sorry to interrupt - now back to your regular "working the grip" program)


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh yes, there it is. Jason's picture reminded me of my flying Belgian bred Ike! There he is indeed!

I think Frans is whistling 'wow-wee" standing in the background there.

The reindeer pictured above....
http://www.vanmeerhoutshepherds.com/II Litter.html


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

What a crazy boy he must have been! Maybe it's something they are feeding them in Belgium ...


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## Pedrooo (Jun 7, 2010)

Genetics


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