# LJ: Wonky rear end



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

She's had a little more toe dragging on our walks lately. Getting Adequan injections every 3 weeks. Last night, wobbly rear. This morning, very wobbly rear - needs full harness. 

I suspect DM. Chiropractor or regular vet?? 

She's been on Baytril for 18 days for a staph infection.

Her appetite is great, poops very good. Not incontinent. 

I feel so bad for her. This really sucks.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

So Sorry to hear you are struggling with such a nasty problem. Hope you can find a good solution to help and get better. I know how bad it sucks and how difficult it can be altho I have not personally dealt with DM. My last girl had HD and it was nasty to her.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

that stinks my Trainer his dog has DM 
I'd take to regular vet first!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Regular vet-then vet neurologist-I think they were the ones who checked Nina. That's what I would do and then any complementary care that would help-if it helped. 

I hope LJ is just having a bad day. XOXO to her, please.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

No advice but sending positive thoughts to LJ!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Me thinks its a relapse of Vestibular Syndrome. As soon as my DH gets home, we're off to the vet to confirm. She does have a slight head tilt and her eyes are twitchy.

Thanks for the help!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

We're back from the vet. Vestibular Syndrome relapse. What luck! Exactly 10 weeks since the first time. The vet said this time she is quite a bit worse - but not all that bad as she can still stand and walk. She was given an injection of Dexamethasone - which I'm not crazy about - and some Antivert for the nausea. The vet said she could potentially be better by tomorrow. I hope so - because my helper (DD) is in Chicago until the end of June.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Oh no! Just hearing about that disease makes me feel nauseous. Poor Lady Jane.









If the other stuff doesn't work then try the homeopathic remedy nux vomica 30cc. 

ETA: I'm looking up some others in case that might not be the best one for her situation. 

Ok, the nux will help with the nauseau and dizziness but not the overall balance issues.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for the reminder Ruth. I gave her some nux vomica and now she's napping. Her eye movements are making ME ill.

She hasn't been getting her usual dosage of fish oil. I really need to find something that she can tolerate.

I started giving her curcumin today (500 mg). It's supposed to be a good anti-inflammatory.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

How does LJ do with flax, if fish oil doesn't agree with her?

I am sending good vibes for sweet Lady Jane. May this bout be quashed soon, and may she respond well to the meds. I know she has been on the Baytril and getting over the staph infection too. We are all pulling for this wonderful girl! We love you, LJ!!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Patti! LJ is allergic to flax.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Joanne, didn't her first episode come after being on flagyl? And this one after being on Baytril. Just seems odd to me.

I sure am glad that it's not DM!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

LJ is like Grimm that way then, as he too, is allergic to flax. How is LJ feeling today, Joanne? Could Lisa maybe have a point, she may just be a bit antibiotic-sensitive? How is she doing on the treatment meds, does she tolerate them okay with her tummy? I am sending good thoughts and positive vibes out to Lady Jane, sweet wonderful girl!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> 
> dogs, rare, but potential side effects include, but are not limited to, gastrointestinal issues such as diarrhea or vomiting, elevated liver enzymes, seizures, depression and nervousness are also possible


http://www.discountpetmedicines.com/baytril-antibiotic.htm

Anytime neurological side effects are possible -- such as seizures and nervousness -- then I assume ALL neurological side effects are possible. 

Darn Wonk Fairy.









Baytril is not an easy drug to take. There are a lot of side effects to manage. 

Oh Lady Jane.







Feel better. Oh, Joanne.







you too.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I was also suspect of the Baytril except that she's taken many times before without a problem. It doesn't even give her the runs. And it's the only thing that clears up her staph infection. She really needs to be on the Baytril for another 10 days. I hate staph.

I spent a good part of today googling. You won't believe what I found. LJ has been on Gentamicin since Wednesday. 

http://www.informationcrawler.com/577/vestibular-disease-in-dogs-and-cats-2/

Causes of peripheral vestibular syndrome

1. Middle or inner ear disease (infection or tumor)
2. Nasopharyngeal polyps
3. Head trauma
4. Drug toxicity (e.g. gentamycin)
5. Underactive thyroid gland
6. Congenital (present at birth)
7. Idiopathic (cause unidentifiable)

Causes of central vestibular syndrome

1. Brain hemorrhage or infarct
2. Infectious encephalitis (bacterial, viral or fungal)
3. Meningoencephalitis
4. Head trauma
5. Drug toxicity (e.g. metronidazole)
6. Brain cyst
7. Brain tumor (primary or metastatic)
8. Thiamine deficiency
9. Neurodegenerative disease


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

yes, but keep it in mind. 

I've taken Cipro many times without side effects, but the last time I took it, it wasn't pretty.









We get older (yes, unfortunately, it's true) our bodies change. Their abilities to react to different substances change. 

Cipro, btw, is very similar to Baytril. That's what made me think to look at the side effects one more time. 

You're likely right that it's something else -- or it's idiopathic -- but I'd give this to the little guy that does all the filing in your brain and tell him to hold on to it. Just file it in the "well... maybe..." file. (My "well... maybe...." file is over-stuffed and the little guy complains all the time about that.) Just in case. 

Or you could be normal and jot a note in LJ's actual health file like reasonable people do.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The episode after being on drugs again seems too coincidental to me, whichever drug is causing this. 




> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomOr you could be normal and jot a note in LJ's actual health file like reasonable people do.


So *that's* what normal people do??!?!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

And the totally neurotic people would have the information tattooed onto their dog!









So, suppose it is the Baytril. What other antibiotic wipes out staph as well?

The good news is that after helping me potty LJ, my DH agrees that we need a handicap ramp.

LJ is doing better tonight. She was able to stand up on her own. Her appetite is very good.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomSo, suppose it is the Baytril. What other antibiotic wipes out staph as well?


Indy might be in the same situation. I think I might have to look at things like Olive Leaf Extract, or Oregano Oil, or something more alternative for her, maybe for both the mutts. I think Jean used DMG???




> Quote:The good news is that after helping me potty LJ, my DH agrees that we need a handicap ramp.


That's over half the battle there.

Several months ago I broke down and bought a ramp for the car for Max. It's a pain, but it took awhile to get him used to it. I didn't want him jumping in and out right after he had a chiro adjustment and wrecking it. When we came home today from the chiro, I was thinking that it was good that I got him used to it before he absolutely positively needed it. (Now I need some steps for the bed....)




> Quote:LJ is doing better tonight. She was able to stand up on her own. Her appetite is very good.


I'm glad she is doing better. It really sucks when they are aren't moving well and all those terrible thoughts go running through your head.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Did your vet just look at it and say "yup, it's staph. Here's some Baytril." ??? 

Not all staph are MRSA. 



> Quote:
> Staphylococcus aureas or Staph aureus or just plain Staph is a bacteria found on the skin of everybody. It is also found most anywhere in the environment. Most of the time, this bacteria lives happily on the skin without causing any problems. However, when we get a bug bite, scratch, or anything that breaks the skin, this bacteria may creep in and cause an infection. It also may be inhaled and cause pneumonia although this is rather uncommon in children and healthy adults. It is usually the much older set or those with immune deficiency problems that get pneumonia with this particular bacteria. Staph can multiply on food releasing a toxin that causes vomiting and diarrhea which usually resolves with time. And Staph can infect the bloodstream of IV drug abusers who use dirty needles. The point is Staph can cause a lot of different types of infections but it usually doesn't in otherwise healthy people. So, who does get serious Staph infections? Mostly it is those who have just had surgery and have skin that is open and healing; Or perhaps the older adult in a nursing home who has trouble clearing secretions with coughing.
> 
> *Most Staph are sensitive to simple antibiotics. * So, when the typical child gets a cut on the leg which gets infected, simple antibiotics by mouth clears things up rather well. Unfortunately, the overuse of antibiotics has made these simple Staph a little harder to kill. In some hospitals (particularly intensive care units) and nursing homes where antibiotic use is often high, there is a higher prevalence of resistant Staph. When Staph become resistant to methicillin (a simple type of penicillin), they are given the name MRSA. This does not mean those particular staph are any more likely to cause infection, it just means if they do cause infection, they will be much harder to kill.


by Robert Steele, MD

http://parenting.ivillage.com/gs/gshealth/0,,3q70,00.html


Was a culture *with sensitivity* done? http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=0+1302+1473&aid=993

The sensitivity is as important as the culture. A lot of owners don't realize that. Heck, I wonder if a lot of vets don't realize that because they're more worried about the culture showing that the infex exists in the first place. They get the sample, but they've already prescribed the abx. So "yup, culture was positive. Dog's on abx. File this please." Nothing against any vets but they're busy, and efficient. Most of the time, the abx they've prescribed work just fine. 

As Dr. Steele notes, it's possible that this staph may respond to a simple abx. But if your vet didn't do a sensitivity, we won't know that (and that's why some vets prescribe "big guns" -- broad spectrum abx-- like Baytril). 

LJ isn't a IV drug user (that we know of) and she hasn't been hospitalized long term. As far as I know, you don't give her abx indiscriminately, which could build up resistance.

(This is why I whine incessantly when people self-treat or treat their dogs with abx that they may not need. You just thought I was annoying, which I am, but I do have reasons







) 

So in your shoes, I'd go back to my vet (or look at your paperwork and see what you paid for). If a C&S weren't done, I consider getting one done. Then go from there. It may be that a simple abx (Clavamox, perhaps) could clear up her infex, one without all the side effects. 

And finally, I love our ramps. So do the kids. The young kids barrel up the ramps at about 75mph. They think the ramp from our deck to the yard is agility equipment. Zamboni uses it when she needs to; and she doesn't when she doesn't. So I can use it to guage how she's feeling. 

We wrapped and stapled yoga mat around the wood for a nice slip-proof surface. It's gone through ...uhhh... 4 or 5 (?) rainy/snowy/icy winters (and a LOT of high-speed young dog traffic) and is still intact. Never underestimate the power of PVC.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lori, you are NOT annoying. 

A culture with sensitivity was not done. She's had this problem before and was treated with cephalexin which (1) didn't work and (2) gave her horrendous diarrhea. Last year I suggested Baytril and the vet said ok. It works well and no diarrhea. 

We are on day number 20 of the Baytril. Would there be anything to culture today? Her belly looks really good.  The culture with sensitivity costs $140. 

If her skin thing comes back, I will spend the $140 at the start. 

I went back through her records and she has been prescribed antibiotics quite often. Mostly amoxi and ceph.

Ramps. My DH suggested getting a car ramp and using on it back steps. To me, this sounds dangerous - particularly for me. Lori, did you build your ramp?

I honestly don't know how you ladies work. I am exhausted from taking care of LJ and attempting to meet everyone else's needs!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

There are some good ramps here: http://www.handicappedpets.com/www/index.php/help-pets-walk/dog-ramps-steps.html

How is LJ's vestibular disease? I hope she's feeling better.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

We (meaning Dh







) built ours. He took 2x12s, wrapped them in yoga mat and voila! instant ramp. If our deck were higher, we would have added railing. But it's not very high, and neither of our seniors have balance issues. Grover had HD and shoulder dysplasia. Zamboni has weak hips and knees (well, some days; others, she bounds up the steps). 

We laid the ramp up against the steps. The stairs provided enough support for the girls, who didn't weigh that much (Grover weighed 58 lbs and Boni 40). Once Camper the Crazy Man showed up, Dh added a supporting rail so the ramp would hold up the the additional force (force = mass x acceleration. Camper had almost twice the mass and a LOT more acceleration!







) 

A handyman should be able to do it pretty easily, if you're not the home project type. 

Here, this should help get you started: 

http://forum.doityourself.com/pets-farm-animals/52568-building-ramp-my-handicapped-dog.html

I'd be very cautious about buying anything made of plastic or metal with WA winters, much less RI winters which I presume are harsher than ours. Metal/plastic, I would think, would get very icy and slippery, unless (I suppose) you're willing to use some sort of de-icer


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

LJ is much, much better today. She can stand up on her own and walk around the back yard to potty without assistance. She even sat on her couch for a few hours of patrol duty today.

My DH is handy. Our back stairs are concrete and 3 feet high. Whatever he builds, will have to be sturdy and have side rails. Steel (80 lbs) likes to run around a like a nut.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I cannot tell you how delighted I am to read this, Joanne! Gosh, LJ has her very own couch, too?







Such a good girl she is! Steel and LJ have a wonderful life with you and DH caring for their every whim and need. You are so on top of everything for them. Such lucky dogs to have such a caring, attentive, smart, savvy Mom!! I am thrilled to hear that today is better for LJ. She is such a trooper and has come through so much, with such grace. When's her next Adequan shot coming up? Hugs to Lady Jane!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

How is she doing on the curcumin?

I think with both dogs, it caused I a cleansing through the skin. Those lumps of indy's *may* have followed the start of the curcumin, and Max's lumps and bumps changed too. I think it's a good thing, but if something in LJ's skin comes up, I juast wanted to mention it. They boath seem to be doing well on it though. 

I searched for curcumin and heart murmur, and it looks like it might be protective in some way for that too.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Patti, LJ's next Adequan injection is Wednesday the 17th. I'm going to do every 2 weeks.

Lisa, LJ's icky skin *may* have followed that clay internal cleansing stuff. I dunno. 

She seems be doing good with the curcumin. I'm not sure I'm dosing it right - one 500 mg a day? I'm hoping that between the CoQ-10 and the curcumin, her heart is covered.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am giving Max 500 mg a day, so that's probably about right for LJ. 

When I first took pau d'arco for a fungal infection in my esophagus (old infection from nasal inhalers for allergies), I got so sick - I lost my voice and was miserable. Irobically, I needed abx to get past it, but overall I was MUCH better. Funny, I had been treated with anti-fungals years earlier. So, so you think you saw any benefit from that clay for Ms Lady Jane?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I hate to admit it, but yes. It would make sense - all the bad coming out through the skin.

Does the curcumin make Max gassy? LJ has had really stinky farts all week.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

And major burps too.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I have decided, after REALLY reading about Baytril, not to continue giving it to LJ. Thanks Lori for the tap on the head...









What now, I dunno....


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Max seems to be doing very well on the curcumin. Indy may have had some problems, but I put her on a pretty high dose before I knew she didn't have a cancer relapse.

You can go every other day and see if that makes a difference? Maybe her digestive system is "off" from the clay, the baytril, etc. 

As for the staph, if you still need abx, would plain old amoxi work? Or doxy?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

After researching abx this morning, I decided to not give her any. I know the doxy won't work because she was taking doxy at the start of the staph thing - although I suppose the dosage could be different than what I was giving her for the tummy issues.

So...no curcumin, baytril, salmon oil, or antivert since yesterday morning. The burping/farting has stopped. Tomorrow I will give the curcumin - maybe divide the capsule up between am and pm?

I must admit, LJ's poops are perfect! She still has a mild head tilt and is a bit wobbly. Huge improvement over Monday!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lisa, I'm wondering if I should add DMG to LJ's supplements. Good idea? Bad idea?


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## jesmagmisty (Jul 13, 2001)

I'm glad LJ is feeling so much better.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Joanne, if LJ has routine problems with Staph, going by Jean's experience, I'd say that the DMG would be a good addition. 

I'm really glad that she is doing so much better. That must have been a bit terrifying thinking it was DM, or something permanently disabling.

I don't know about the splitting of the curcumin -- it might help. I don't know if there is a difference with them digesting it with or without capsule. Let me know what you figure out.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I will order the DMG. Today I bought Selenium because I read it helps Vit E work better and some L-Glutamine. She's still burping - I suspect it might be the way she is eating - she still has a little head tilt going on and I think she takes in a lot of air. I do have some empty capsules for the curcumin.

We found a FREE used handicap platform and ramp on Craigslist. Its made out of wood. DH will borrow a truck and trailer to pick it up tomorrow. LJ will be a fossil by the time DH gets around to modifying it and installing it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Great news on the ramp!

Be careful if you think she is swallowing a bunch of air. You might even have to use some Gas-x. We DON'T WANT any bloating going on!

Will you be seeing the chiro soon?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

This is my latest freak out - I have been giving her Gas-X - I even bought Gas-X Ultra. Activated charcoal is working better. I made her some quinnoa which has helped with the consistency of the meals. She's still taking in a lot of air when she drinks. I don't know how to fix this. 

We're going to the chiropractor Thursday.

She went to the vet for her adequan injection yesterday. We saw the young vet that has GSDs. I told her that LJ had been shaking her head lately. She checked her ears - they were both spotless. Then she explained that LJ's head feels funny, something about the fluid in her ears not being even. She said to keep giving her the antivert - which I had stopped.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Yikes, just catching up on LJ. 

Is she still getting slippery elm? I like Activated Charcoal better than Gas X but it does slow things down in the poop dept. and you have to be careful when you give it b/c it can absorb other meds too.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I had stopped the slippery elm. I will start again. I'm also giving her L-Glutamine.

So far today, no burps!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Ruth, I picked up some Bravo green tripe Saturday. It was only $5. They are enjoying it. I try not to inhale near it. I'm hoping that the tripe will help too. How much should I give LJ?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That's a great price! I give Chama 1/4 cup per meal. You could start with a little less just to be sure she can handle it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I might see how the chiro affects that head shaking. 

I too think charcoal is more effective, it's just harder to time sometimes because of the absorption issue.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTHow is she doing on the curcumin?
> 
> I think with both dogs, it caused I a cleansing through the skin. Those lumps of indy's *may* have followed the start of the curcumin, and Max's lumps and bumps changed too. I think it's a good thing, but if something in LJ's skin comes up, I juast wanted to mention it. They boath seem to be doing well on it though.
> 
> I searched for curcumin and heart murmur, and it looks like it might be protective in some way for that too.


And the prize goes to LisaT for predicting the return of the icky skin.

Here's an update:

1. Chiro appointment is tomorrow.
2. Mega farts. Fewer burps than yesterday.
3. The return of the staph infection on her belly.
4. After weeks of near perfect poos, the nasty poo fairy visited. 

I called the nice, young vet that has GSDs. I told her about the skin - I didn't think to mention the nasty poo. I told her I didn't want the Baytril. She thought it was because of the cost. I explained how I thought the abx and vestibular problems were connected. She agreed and recommended Simplicef. She said if the Simplicef doesn't work, we will do a culture with sensitivity testing.

I need some direction. What is making her so gassy? I'm really hoping that the gas and skin stuff is all the bad crap working its way out. Is that possible?

Current supplements/meds:

Activated Charcoal and Slippery Elm when needed

Antivert

Carlson Super Omega-3 
Omega-3 2100 mg
EPA 900 mg
DHA 600 mg

Pancrezyme

Magnesium (200 mg)

CoQ-10 (400 mg)

Probiotic

Soloxine

Ester-C (1000 mg)

Proin (25 mg)

Vitamin E (400 iu)

Curcumin 95 (500 mg)

Selenium (200 mcg)

Optimized B-Complex
Methylcobalamin B12
Pantethine P-5-P

Cosamin DS
Glucosamine 1500 mg
Chondtroitin 1200 mg

L-Glutamine (500 mg)

Liver Support Factors (1 per day)

Hyaluronic Acid


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Ugh, who knows???







With these seniors I feel like it could be just about anything---the wind, the alignment of the stars and the earth...









I think today it's the weather. I just had to give Chama two activated charcoal before we all died from her noxious farts!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Oh my goodness! I am always glad to get a Lady Jane update, but I sure wish things were going much better for her! Ruth, do you use any special immune boosters, or know of any, that might help LJ whallop that staph infection on her tummy? Wonder if an immune booster might also help her digestion, too? Just a thought. Joanne, I know it is so crazy when our seniors get on so many supplements and meds! I remember it was that way with Chell, a huge regimen of what he took, when. You are doing a remarkable job with Lady J! I am sending positive thoughts and prayers that she begins to feel much better and has lovely poops, no more gas, and a happy tummy. LJ is such a trooper! ((Hugs))


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I've used several great immune boosters. My two favorites are 

Invigor 

and 

Bertes Immune Blend 

The Bertes Immune Blend definitely has helped with Chama's digestion. Obviously it's still not perfect but it's better than what it was! 

Also, I did want to say that dogs (and people) do detox through the skin so it is entirely possible that she's going to get better but she has to get worse first.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

We had a pretty good day. The burping has stopped. The room clearing gas has diminished. I eliminated the salmon oil caps and raw green tripe.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I was going to ask about the fish oil - only cuz it can be tricky. 

Is the selenium daily? That might be a high dose if so?

If the stools get real soft, it might be the magnesium.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hey, you eliminated two things at once so now you don't know which one was causing the problem!







I do that all of the time.









I ran out of green tripe on Friday so I tried to substitute Merrick's canned food. That was a mistake as that was surely the source of Chama's room clearing gas.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I don't mind eliminating more than one thing, as long as I add them back one by one









Actually, it's not that I think selenium at this point is causing symptoms, only that I have the issue of selenium overdose drilled into my brain. It's the only pill my mostly anti-vitamin dad has taken for probably over 20 years now, and he won't take more than 100 mcg per day. Indy's hair analysis came in high in selenium for some reason, and that might have consequences. Higher doses might be okay, but it needs to be thought about. Both mine get it in their multi, and Max gets an extra 200 mcg each week. And again, that's one thing that I know I've been brainwashed about.


In the pro-selenium camp, I do think it might be one reason my dad was able to go 10 months without having the tumor(s) in his liver receive treatment, and now lives to tell about it.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowHey, you eliminated two things at once so now you don't know which one was causing the problem!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know. I know.









No noxious odors waking me up, so this is good! She just got up for a pee with Steel. I'd like to try stopping the antivert because it takes her very sleepy and I begin to question her quality of life. 

I will find out today what the correct amount of selenium is and if she needs it. I was also wondering about the magnesium because many of her supplements have a little in them. I did cut it back to two days a week, perhaps I didn't do it soon enough.

Or it just be that Runny Poo Fairy.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTIn the pro-selenium camp, I do think it might be one reason my dad was able to go 10 months without having the tumor(s) in his liver receive treatment, and now lives to tell about it.


That's why I added it in. My big fear. Liver tumor. The holistic vet has been hinting around that something is going on with LJ's liver/gall bladder. Today I will be brave and specifically ask her if she's trying to tell me LJ has cancer. Yes, I said it out loud.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Darn Runny Poo Fairy!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTDarn Runny Poo Fairy!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Joanne, hang in there. Even if the alterbative vet runs an ultrasound and find a "tumor" on the liver/gall area, it may just mean a large benign tumor, or a slow-growing tumor, or sometimes they even can be enormous and just "sit there." A friend's elderly Dachsund went in, had a collossal liver tumor, and the vet said they'd manage symptoms, because the tumor had been there for YEARS. It was the size of a plum, and doing nothing. It wasn't hemangiosarcoma, but some other common tumor that just sits there.

Also, LJ could simply have a sluggish liver/bile duct thing going on and some herbs do help cleans/renew/drain the area.

'Nother thought, with our seniors, liver values can be off due to some of the meds or supplements. Even when the supplements are things they would normally eat in nature in small amounts, at these dosages, the liver may be slower to clear things, and values may not be what we expect.

Trying to give some comfort.. am hoping the vet has helpful advice and good things to say about the lovely Lady Jane! You are doing a wonderful job of caring for her. She is such a loved, spoiled dog who knows she is the star. Okay, she and Steel.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Patti


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just saw the post about the liver and possible cancer. 

Max's vet says that a lot of GSDs are "liver dogs" and that is where they show their primary imbalance. It shows with their eyes that get quickly get red, excessive heat, and other things that I don't remember. I think the other holistic vet we saw first said something similar. Words like damp heat might be in there too. That imbalance isn't just with the organ, but the entire liver meridian, and that causes imbalances in what follows liver (there's a circle of what affects what, can't remember that stuff off the top of my head - it's in the 4 Paws, 5 Directions book too). 

In some threads, you will find that many GSDs prefer to lay on hardwood floors, kitchen floor, etc, because it's cooler - it's that internal heat that they seem to run. Heck, probably also why pannus is so common in GSD's, as the eyes are associated with the liver. (I think the ears are associated with the kidneys, the muscles with the spleen?)

Max always gets treated for his liver stuff when he gets acupuncture. So that imbalance is different than something like cancer. With Indy, she used to have a persistent spleen imbalance, since she was very young - it is who she is and how the chi runs through her body, or places where it stagnates.

So Joanne, I sure hope the vet doesn't think cancer (though I am a big believer in being proactive), but until further notice, I'm going to bet that LJ is just being a GSD


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lisa you made me smile early this morning. I needed that. Particularly after spending another night on the dog bed. I'm going to need a full harness soon.

The holistic vet says her gait is from the vestibular syndrome. She did a "minor tune up" with the chiropractic stuff. She wasn't happy that I changed LJ's supplements without consulting her. I shared my cancer fears so she did Autonomic Response Testing. She got 54 for spleen, 59 systemically, 44 abdomen, and 42 liver. She said numbers in the 40s suggest inflammation. 60 is malignant cancer. We're going to start with an x-ray. My will call my regular vet to discuss the procedure. I'm concerned about anesthesia. If they need to knock her out to do the x-ray, I'm going to a larger vet that can do an ultrasound by appointment.

She eliminated several supplements and added these:
Thorne Immugen
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Immugen-by-Thorne-Research/110010.aspx

Systemic Formulas MELA
http://www.systemicformulas.com/660-mela-optimal-terrain-enzymes

Jing Tang Stasis Breaker
http://ajtcvm.org/?p=30

Standard Process Zymex II
http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?ID=163

Standard Process Neurotrophin PMG
http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?ID=109

I think the weakness in her rear end is from a tumor. Just like Niko.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Joanne, you are doing everything right for LJ. I like that you have an alternative vet who has lots of supplement options for her, and that she is watching her supplementation carefully! I am hoping that you can get an x-ray done without sedation. Or, an ultrasound. ( I always wonder.. how the heck can they see much with an ultrasound? The pics are too weird for me!) I am sending good thoughts and prayers for Lady Jane. Please let me know what happens with tests upcoming. Both you and LJ are in my prayers!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I sure hope that your instincts are wrong on this Joanne, as well as the vet's ART.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I do have some good news. After 3 doses of Simplicef, the icky belly stuff icleared up. That was very fast.

Some odd news. As if I'm not stressed enough, I have a mouse in my house. I found the poo. Haven't actually spotted the mouse yet. I don't mind mice. I'd rather he or she was litter box trained. My last mouse had 3 legs and was really cute. He hung around for several months. He would come out and squawk at us while we ate. At the time we had 2 huskies and a GSD. The mouse would scurry by the dogs and they didn't even care.

Well, were off to the regular vet at 3:45.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I had mice when I first moved in to my house. I was afraid that Indy would tear apart a wall to get to it -- he has that rat terrier part of her that goes nuts when she hears those higher pitched noises.

Glad to hear that the belly stuff cleared up quickly -- good luck at the vet!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Waiting for news on Lady Jane from the vet's report. Happy about her happy tummy results, too!! More good thoughts and vibes for LJ to get good news from the vet today!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

NO TUMORS!!







She took 2 x-rays which was a real struggle - even with me holding LJ's head. She has a little arthritis on some of her ribs and a little Spondylosis in a few spots. Not bad overall. 

The bad news. Her heart murmur is worse. I need to make some phone calls to get an echo done. The vet said to just insist that they let me in the room.

I will have the Chem 27, CBC, thyroid, and heartworm/lyme back tomorrow.

It was a VERY long appointment. She a lot of time with us. LJ was really good except for the x-ray part. 

Oh, and she pooped when we got into the room.







It was a nearly perfect poop! I was so excited - mostly since she hadn't pooped since the massive runny poo incident Monday morning.

A HUGE THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR ALL THAT POSITIVE ENERGY!!!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

There. Aren't you glad we tested?







We aren't wasting energy where it isn't needed. 

Now we can worry about other stuff.









Don't worry about the murmur yet. Let's see what the cardiologist says. If I have to pick geriatric diseases and failures, congestive heart failure is one I'll go with. Heart meds work well. Diuretics are great. We can get bottled oxygen to have around the house for when we need it. (I had it and only needed it once for Grover). 

Zamboni's had a murmur for years and has been on heart meds for gosh, a year or more now and she just keep cruising along. I don't worry about her heart like I do her other organs. We monitor her BP, pulse and get an echo now and then. But in the big scheme of things, it's one of the more manageable organs.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm very glad. Now maybe that awful pain in my stomach will go away!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Here are LJ's Chem 27 and CBC results:










The image is so small. I'll email Barb and ask for some help.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Very. Old. Eyes. Hurt.









BARRRRBBBB!!!!!!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

HALP!! I've squinted so hard and so long, my face has FROZEN this way!! Dang, Mom was RIGHT!!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

It's on it's way


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

A really big thank you to Barb!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Oh yeah







that's much easier to read!!!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

The vet said "it looks good". Again, differing ideas of "good". Sure its good, but its kinda bad too.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

No one has ever commented on the fact that my Excel "helper" is a cat







It's my way of having a cat in my life!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

You mean you change the paperclip guy to a cat? Wow. I'm really in the dark ages!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Dang, I wish I were getting those scores. Looks good to me, Lady Jane.










Her Alk Phos increased rather dramatically since the December and March tests and my first thought was "uh-oh," but then I looked at the previous tests. So then I realized that she may be bouncing around depending on what you're giving her medicine-wise. (Or, it just may be what she does because some of us have bouncing-around test scores.) If you're giving her stuff that's being metabolized in the liver that you CAN phase out (with your vet's approval, of course), I'd think about doing that. 

The BUN and hematocrit numbers aren't concerning, even though they're no longer WNL officially. The chloride number is so close to normal, that I wouldn't be inclined to be concerned on the face of it, but since I don't know much about it, I looked it up:



> Quote:
> How is it used?
> Blood chloride testing is often ordered, along with other electrolytes, as part of a regular physical to screen for a variety of conditions. These tests may also be ordered to help diagnose the cause of signs and symptoms such as prolonged vomiting, diarrhea, weakness, and respiratory distress. If an electrolyte imbalance is detected, the doctor will look for and address the disease, condition, or medication causing the imbalance and may order electrolyte testing at regular intervals to monitor the effectiveness of treatment. If an acid-base imbalance is suspected, the doctor may also order blood gas tests to further evaluate the severity and cause of the imbalance.
> ...
> ...


http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/chloride/test.html


If this were a fasting test, or if she's had a bit of runny stool, that alone would explain a bit of dehydration (not because it's outside normal necessarily, but because she's on the high side of normal). If not, just keep an eye on that (when you touch her gums, they should feel wet, not sticky or tacky). Actually, staff to geriatric dogs should be aware of the propensity for dehydration in older kids anyhow. 

Nothing to be alarmed about though.







Don't go touching her gums so often that she feels inclined to gnaw off your fingers to make you stop.







(This is the sort of thing that I do!) 

But I think this is a good report card. I'd hang it on the refrigertor and give her an extra snack.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomYou mean you change the paperclip guy to a cat? Wow. I'm really in the dark ages!










Right click on the paper clip and you'll get a pop up, then click on choose assistant and you'll get a number of choices.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> but its kinda bad too.


There is nothing here that is Kinda bad. Nothing. For a 6 year old dog, I'd think this was a pretty good report. For a senior citizen, I think it's excellent. 

Stop looking under your bed for monsters. Trust me, you don't have to go looking for them. They will come and find you when they want to.










ETA: and they bring Michael Jackson and his whole Thriller video too.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

She was a bit dehydrated after her huge runny poo incident Monday. She was Doxy and Baytril for a quite a while. 

I would post it on my fridge but the only things that stick to it are fingerprints and fur.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Post it on your washing machine then. At LJ's eye level, so she can walk by it, read over it and gloat over it to Steel. 

Don't forget the snack. Yeah, Steel can get a little snack too. We're celebrating. Heck, I might have one as well, as soon as Zamboni wakes up.









Unless Barb rudely bumps her again.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomUnless Barb rudely bumps her again.


Hey, that's what happens when you don't update in 3 weeks!

Steel and LJ each had an extra ounce of raw meat. I'm thinking about taking a drive to Coldstone for a waffle cone of Berry, Berry Good.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Cold Stone Creamery? Eeeeek.. all that airborne nut dust.









Walking in that place is like walking into a nuclear reactor without a protective suit for me.







I can't even stand outside the door. 

Enjoy your snack. I hope it's berry delicious.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Well the holistic vet popped my happy bubble. She's still insisting that her spleen is a concern.

Tomorrow I will call the place we're going to for the echo and add an abdominal ultrasound. I suspect that now we won't be able to have the echo done by a cardiologist. 

I want my happy bubble back!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Dang holistic vet.









Let's find another vet. One that believes in happy bubbles.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm still going to live in the bubble that LJ is just being a GSD with all their eccentricities









BUT, glad you are having everything checked out.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Just got home from the echo/abdominal ultrasound - and - WOO HOO!!! Its all good!!! Her heart has stayed the same since 2007. No need for meds. The cardiologist said she has "GSD spleen" meaning its slightly enlarged and has some nodules. He said it said that is very normal for a GSD her age. Her gall bladder, liver, etc are all normal. I am so relieved!!! Maybe we can still go ahead with our vacation plans!!

We had it done at Ocean State Veterinary Specialists in East Greenwich, RI. Dr. Stamoulis was wonderful. He didn't shave her or medicate her - unlike the one we had done in '07 at her old vet. I did buy her a basket muzzle yesterday - I think that helped. 

When we first arrived I left LJ in the exam room with my son so I could use the bathroom. When I got back, LJ had pooped. I was so happy to see a nicely formed poop.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Great news on the ultrasound









Max's spleen was enlarged earlier this year (with low platelets probably a drug reaction), and his ultrasound was clear too









Sometimes things just "are", and sometimes that alone is hard, particularly when I always want to know "why".

I'm _really _happy to hear these results


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That is GREAT news!!!!! Go LJ, go!


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