# Panda Shepherds?



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

I've heard of them before. I think it totally ruins the breed. Does anybody know how this coloring came about? (ex. breeding a GSD with a part GSD part other breed dog?) 
That sounded so stupid but ya'll know what I'm getting at I'm sure?
Just like the merle genes in some dogs! There had to be a break in the chain SOMEWHERE because it's not albino and it's surely not black and tan!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm not sure how it would ruin the breed? 

It was a gene mutation which caused a type of white patterning. There were no mixed breeds or other breeds involved.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> It was a gene mutation which caused a type of white patterning. There were no mixed breeds or other breeds involved.


Yep. I also don't think it will ruin the breed. So far there have been no health problems linked to the gene mutation (such as health problems linked to double merle etc.) The breeders that are working with panda shepherds seemed responsible to me, titling and health checking parents before breeding. I don't see how this is any different than white GSDs "ruining the breed" and I think if WGSDs can never be shown as GSDs, then support them being recognized as their own breed so they can.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KaitykaityThere had to be a break in the chain SOMEWHERE because it's not albino and it's surely not black and tan!


Are you meaning white shepherds when you say albino? Because white GSDs are not albino, albino is a complete lack of coloring leading to clear hair shafts that appear white and pink eyes. Correctly bred white GSDs have black leather. Also, many white shepherds will have a cream or orange pigment on them, including some shepherds that are genetically white but appear cream/beige over the entire body. 

The white gene that leads to white toes or white on the chest is not the same as the genes for white shepherds. This was a false misconception that lead to white shepherds being disqualified from showing; as breeders believed breeding a white GSD lead to more/larger white on colored dogs.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I have never heard of such a thing, but looking at the pix of them, I think they're cute. I like it, which is odd because I'm not that big of a fan of the all white or all black? Weird...


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Somewhere on this board you can find thread upon thread upon thread regarding Panda Shepherds







The answers you're looking for are, more than likely, going to be in those threads.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

They are all GSD genetically. No break in the chain as far as breeding. Spontaneous genetic mutation does occur.. its that kind of world. Some like the color, some don't but the original parentage was a two black and tan all GSD pairing.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddessI have never heard of such a thing, but looking at the pix of them, I think they're cute. I like it, which is odd because I'm not that big of a fan of the all white or all black? Weird...










Dakota is pretending he didn't hear that. Well technically he has white on his legs.....So I guess he doesn't count.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SambaThey are all GSD genetically. No break in the chain as far as breeding. Spontaneous genetic mutation does occur.. its that kind of world.


As I recall there was no DNA testing saying these dogs are purebreds. I'll have to go look for those old threads because I don't remember for sure. I do recall that they are registered as having a sire & dam that are registered as GSDs.

Spontaneous genetic mutation does occur. Spontaneously not repeatedly.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Here's the only other thread I can find on this ---> Panda Shepherd?  

There were a few more at one time with a boat load of great info but they must have been deleted during a board cleaning??? Sorry. This one is not as good but it does have a little more info.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vinnie
> 
> As I recall there was no DNA testing saying these dogs are purebreds.


I think Phenom might disagree with that. There is a person on here with a Phenom Panda Shepherd.

http://www.pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info

If there is a genetic mutation and that dog is bred (the daughter) then it makes sense that the mutated gene would pass down the line to the puppies making it repeatable.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Vinnie
> ...


I think you should maybe quote my whole statement and not take one line out of context. The dogs are "registered" as GSDs. The original Panda (Franka or something like that) is DNA tested to have the sire & dam she is registered to but they are not DNA tested to be purebred GSDs. Registration is not a guarantee.




> Quote:If there is a genetic mutation and that dog is bred (the daughter) then it makes sense that the mutated gene would pass down the line to the puppies making it repeatable.


So what would be the reason they would call it "spontaneous"?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I didn't realize I had taken your post out of context. I do know I didn't deserve to get my [censored] chewed on for my post that included information from a PhD. 

If you feel my post is so completely out of line then feel free to delete it.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you guys, I was just curious.
And didn't mean to offend anybody by saying 'ruins'. I used the wrong word there. I so badly wanted a pure white GSD before I wanted a black one (funny how that changed.. everything I own is either black, white or grey as it is.. only makes sense that my dog should be too!!) and I used to have breeders telling me that the whites were generally larger than other colored gsds. I recall reading that they are somewhat of their own breed, Swiss German or something.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08I didn't realize I had taken your post out of context. I do know I didn't deserve to get my [censored] chewed on for my post that included information from a PhD.
> 
> If you feel my post is so completely out of line then feel free to delete it.


What? I think you're overreacting a little bit. No one chewed on you. I just made a simple statement because I felt you quoted me out of context. No big deal. 

However, I’m still curious how a “spontaneous” genetic mutation can reoccur so frequently.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Vinnie
> 
> 
> Jax08 said:
> ...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The mutation occured only once in the original pup. The gene is dominant. The rest in the litter did not experience the mutation and are black/tan. 

Genetic mutations can occur spontaneously. That gene is then changed and can be inherited by the offspring of the changed gene "owner".


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I see. But then the gene is no longer "spontaneous". I may call that geneticist. Thanks for pointing out the phone number.

However, I still have seen no valid proof nor do not believe the dogs have been proven purebred GSDs through DNA testing.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

If the gene mutation has been located-- meaning it is proven the coloration is the result of a gene mutation-- why would you think the dogs are not purebred? 

If the gene is autosomal dominant, it could not have come from a grandparent or further back ancestor being of a different breed, because the coloration would have been present in all the dogs who inherited that gene from the ancestor, meaning Franka's mother or father and a grandparent and so on would have shown the same coloration because you only need one copy of the gene to exhibit the coloration.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineIf the gene mutation has been located-- meaning it is proven the coloration is the result of a gene mutation-- why would you think the dogs are not purebred?


Because I don't accept things blindly.







I'm not saying it's not true but I have a right ask questions if I want.

Because I know the only DNA test on these dogs was regarding the gene and the sire & dam. No one knows for sure if the sire & dam are purebred GSDs. They are "registered" as such but that doesn't amount to much, IMO. Even according to the UCDavis Ph.D. they didn't test any further.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineIf the gene is autosomal dominant, it could not have come from a grandparent or further back ancestor being of a different breed, because the coloration would have been present in all the dogs who inherited that gene from the ancestor, meaning Franka's mother or father and a grandparent and so on would have shown the same coloration because you only need one copy of the gene to exhibit the coloration.


So you're telling me that Franka just developed this gene? Her sire didn't have to pass it on to her? And his sire or dam before him?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Vinnie
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineIf the gene is autosomal dominant, it could not have come from a grandparent or further back ancestor being of a different breed, because the coloration would have been present in all the dogs who inherited that gene from the ancestor, meaning Franka's mother or father and a grandparent and so on would have shown the same coloration because you only need one copy of the gene to exhibit the coloration.
> ...


Yes, that is correct. According to the information given, the mutation was spontaneous in the sire's germ line and was passed on to Franka.
If a genetic mutation is autosomal dominant, that means that every individual who inherits a copy of the gene will show the phenotype (in this case, the white patterning.) If this gene was inherited from a previous generation (a sire/dam/grandsire/etc) rather than having occurred in the germ line of Franka's sire, the previous generation would have also showed the white pattern, and the generation before that, and so on. 

If the gene was not inherited as autosomal dominant, they would not have gotten the results they got from breeding Franka.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Interesting but I still don't see how that proves that Franka was a purebred.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: VinnieInteresting but I still don't see how that proves that Franka was a purebred.


It doesn't, but if her parents are "normal" colored and the gene is autosomal dominant that means she didn't inherit the gene from an ancestor (in other words, they were a spontaneous mutation). 

If she didn't inherit the coloration, why would there be a question of whether she is a purebred?


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

Pandas have randomly cropped up in other litters, there was one on the PDB a while back. I would guess it has happened before but with pups being sterilized and placed as pets or culled.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

As far as I know... I wasn't there... but the sire, dam and Franka were DNA'd to check that indeed the sire was the sire and the dam the dam. There was some university vet school invovement, I believe UC Davis. 

Genes can mutate. It adds to genetic variation when it works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

I have never heard any evidence to refute that this was not a genetic mutation occuring in a GSD. A lot of people have not understood how it happen, but that is beside the pretty well known science of it all.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Besides the coloration, there are other things that make me wonder if she is purebred.







I have said this for a few years now and IF this were my dogs I would be sure to get all the varification and back-up possible. 

It's not that I disbelieve that a spontaneous genetic mutation could occur in purebred GSDs. It's just this one story has always given me pause and I don't think there is enough proof to prove these dogs are even purebred GSDs. IMO, Franka doesn't look like a purebred GSD for more reasons than just her color. 

That's just my opinion and why I pose the question.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Vinnie
> It's not that I disbelieve that a spontaneous genetic mutation could occur in purebred GSDs. It's just this one story has always given me pause and I don't think there is enough proof to prove these dogs are even purebred GSDs. IMO, Franka doesn't look like a purebred GSD for more reasons than just her color.


I can't help you there...if you ignore the white markings, the Pandas look like fairly typical show-type German Shepherds to me.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

I have a panda GSD. She came with a DNA certificate from the University of California. Her DNA was submitted to the VGL Canine Genetics Laboratory at the UC Davis Center for Veterinary Genetics. 
The white-spotting which spontaneously appeared is phenotypically and genotypically distinct from the conventional S locus which defines irish spotting, piebald, and white, but does not define the the Panda type. Not all GSD's with white markings have the panda gene.
White spotting results from mutations in a gene called MITF. There are multiple mutations in this gene and they can all act in concert to produce varying degrees of white spotting. The lone exception to MITF based spotting is the Panda. This results from a single mutation in a different gene. 
The sire that passed on the mutant gene to his daughter Franka is Sch lll Brian Vom Woper Lowen. He looks purebred to me! Look him up yourself. 
When this occured both dame & sire were DNA'd. 
There is information available at Phenom's website, provided in an above link.

My dog looks like a GSD. Her behavior, her disposition, her characteristics are all typical of a GSD. Aside from her white parts, no one would question her breeding.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

And hello to Minnesota, my homeland.


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## alsatian5 (Dec 21, 2011)

In a high kill shelter in California right now - needs rescue, looks like a Panda GSD - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...21013386.67258.100000055391837&type=1&theater


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is about a 3 year old thread. You can post those in the rescue section of the forum. But just one look at that dog and I can tell you its a mix and not a panda GSD.


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