# Please check out my pup



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

This is a male pup from a very reputable breeder in US. He was exam with "abnormal gum" by vet on his first visit. I called the breeder told her the issue. She explained to me that it is "normal", gsds bite have to be scissor cut form. I have to agree with her by that point. But the true is the pup's gum is abnormal. The upper jaw is overshot over 1/2 inch. Please take a look at the picture and prove that vet and me are wrong. I spend $2750 for the pup, plus shipping and health certificate total was $3050. This is the pup that a reputable breeder so called "show quality".


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

I am no expert, but no that does not look normal. The upper and lower jaws should mate up. JMO.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Pet Orthodontics


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

That looks to me to be a horrifically extreme overbite. How do you know the breeder is reputable? Who recommended them to you and what was their experience, or did you just go by what a website said?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree, how old is he? this looks like a wicked wicked overbite. I don't think it will correct itself


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

GSDAlphaMom recommended them to me, and they claimed to be #1 gsd breeder in USA.


----------



## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

That is one CRAZY SERIOUS overbite. Wow..... :-/


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think there is a #1 breeder in the US or maybe there's ALOT that claim to be


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

ok, here is what she reply back against the overshot jaws.

"Like I said, when all puppies are teething.. their bites can be off. It is not abnormal. 
When the puppy is done teething.. and all of his adult teeth are in... we can look into the situation again. 
I would expect that the puppy's bite would be correct when he has time like all puppies to go through this process. It takes time to raise them and give them time to get these things done. "

I had raised two gsd before and none of them had this issue while they were teething. Guess, I have to listen to the breeder? The jaws of gsd would became overshot during teething period?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ahhh no Sure some can be "off", but his is grossly OFF, did you show a picture to the breeder?? and again how old is he??? His teeth aren't "off" his JAW is off, way overshot. his teeth will probably grow in fine, but his bite is going to be overshot. 

It also may affect where the canines 'place' on his top jaw( poor guy,,does he eat ok?


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

He just turned 4 months old today. I did send the picture to the breeder. He eats just fine.


----------



## JPrice (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't see why the jaw would become an overbite during the teething process. I honestly think she is jerking your chain, and to claim they are the #1 breeder in the USA is just an advertisement. No one knows who the #1 breeder is haha. As for correcting itself...that seems improbable, but don't know if it will negatively effect the dog down the road.


----------



## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

During teething, Killians didn't have an overbite. Thats my experience. NONE of my dogs have....


----------



## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear it turned out this bad for you with a show quality purchase. Thats just not fair


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Did you plan on showing, working or breeding the puppy?
If you don't plan to do any of those things, I wouldn't bother sending the puppy back. It will just cost you even more money and cause stress on the dog. 
It's vey difficult to get your money back or even part of your money back from any breeder which is why you have to do your research before the purchase.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I wouldn't return him either, but that's just me,,I would most likely wait it out and see what develops when his adult teeth DO come in, have him re evaluated by the vet , if it's still as 'off' as it is now, I'd be sending the breeder the vet evaluations. 

Who knows, I could very well be wrong and maybe his bite will straighten out, but I kinda doubt it


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

wow.... i've never seen an overbite that bad before. You need to have your vet write a letter stating the bite is way off and wont correct itself even after teething. Then you need to get a second opinion and have that vet do the same and send certified copies of both to the breeder. Thats a bite thats not going to correct itself and can cause some serious issues down the line for the pup. Plus, waiting until teething is done will on serve to get you more attached to the pup which i have a feeling is the breeders plan so you dont want a replacement pup or your money back.


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

I did plan on showing and title thats why I spend over $3000 on a pup. I had to agree with JPrice, my vet told me the same. There is high possibility that the pup will get gum infection down the road.


----------



## JPrice (Feb 19, 2011)

How long have you had the puppy for? I don't know if waiting until all of the adult teeth are in is smart because that will certainly take an extended period of time, and after that you are probably guaranteed to not get anything back from the breeder. You are in a tough boat sir...I'm sorry that it had to work out like this for you.


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> wow.... i've never seen an overbite that bad before. You need to have your vet write a letter stating the bite is way off and wont correct itself even after teething. Then you need to get a second opinion and have that vet do the same and send certified copies of both to the breeder. Thats a bite thats not going to correct itself and can cause some serious issues down the line for the pup. Plus, waiting until teething is done will on serve to get you more attached to the pup which i have a feeling is the breeders plan so you dont want a replacement pup or your money back.


 I had spend almost $4000 for this pup already. I do not want to get myself into a money pit anymore. I am asking the breeder to refund me $2750 which is the cost of the puppy, or pay the shipping and send me another pup that is worth $2750.


----------



## TheNamesNelson (Apr 4, 2011)

Could you like the breeders website please?


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

I had him for 2 months.


----------



## JPrice (Feb 19, 2011)

seanl said:


> I had spend almost $4000 for this pup already. I do not want to get myself into a money pit anymore. I am asking the breeder to refund me $2750 which is the cost of the puppy, or pay the shipping and send me another pup that is worth $2750.


This is probably the best bet. It's sad for the puppy that it had to happen like this, but if you keep him you are bound to get yourself into a money pit down the road with medical bills. Keep us updated on what the breeder says. I as well would like to check out this breeder's website if you could post it.


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

TheNamesNelson said:


> Could you like the breeders website please?


 I am giving them the oppotunity not to publish their names out. I am waiting on her to give me a solution.


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Big overbite.

Some correct, some don't.

If you're not going to show him/breed him, it shouldn't be a problem unless the lower teeth cut into the top of his mouth.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a dog with a horrible tooth alignment. In the future, I'll probably have to have the top incisors removed,because they are cutting into the bottom jaw. So far she's doing ok at almost 6 yrs old/rawfed. Had I had Kacie as a pup, I would have tried to have them fixed with braces, but she was 21 mos when I adopted her.

I would ask for a refund and go with another breeder...the breeder surely was aware of that alignment, or should have been before sending the pup to you. I wouldn't want to go with another pup from that kennel, especially if you specified you wanted to show.


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Sorry - just saw that you did want to show him.


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

zyppi said:


> Big overbite.
> 
> Some correct, some don't.
> 
> If you're not going to show him/breed him, it shouldn't be a problem unless the lower teeth cut into the top of his mouth.


 The pup was sold as "show quality". The lower teeth cut into the top of his mouth already.


----------



## JPrice (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm anxious to see how the breeder is going to handle themselves. If they sold you this puppy as "show quality" they already had to know something was up...what did they say when you told them you wanted a full refund or a new puppy?


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

Here is what she said: (I took out the kennel name)

" I am not trying to be rude in any way, but I already have policy here at xxxxxxxx regarding sales and returns, etc. We have the most open, upfront, honest breeding policies anywhere in the country, and we stand behind every puppy sale for our puppy owners. I will not be making any "new" policies to what we already offer. If you want to return your puppy, at any time, you are more than welcome to do so and you will be offered a replacement puppy of equal value as available. ( I don't have puppies always directly on hand to ship immediately, so you may want to check on the next available litter that we could do a replacement puppy from). Shipping expenses are always the responsibility of the buyer. We do not offer free shipping."


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Please don't publish the breeders name it will end up being removed probably.

You've spent a bundle on this puppy that you shouldn't have, feel bad for you and for the puppy, I hope you can work it out.

I posted when you posted,,I would start getting documentation regarding the puppy and I don't think your offer of asking for the puppy price back or ship you another one is out of line. But it sounds like they don't want to deal in 'money'..


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

My vet told me to make sure the breeder I picked out would offer a replacement from a different litter or a cash refund in case of health problems. You wouldn't want a pup from the same litter if there's a genetic defect or health problem. The breeder we used does offer a money back guarantee, so I can't agree with her statement that they have the best return policy. Seems unreasonable that they expect you to pay for shipping. I think I'd get an attorney to write a letter


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

If you don't come to an agreement, I would suggest you create a website with the breeder's name, photos of the puppy, any vet papers and communications with the breeder so when other potential purchasers research the kennel, your experience will come up as well. It's annoying to see that a breeder is charging that much for a show quality puppy and this is what they send.
Just because the breeder has a "policy" doesn't mean they should be sending puppies with obvious faults and hoping the purchaser doesn't want to spend money to send them back. 
One breeder I spoke to told me he would never sell a puppy as "show quality" unless it's showable immediately, not "might become showable later".
It's unreasonable to expect a purchaser, other than maybe an established breeder to be able to wait around for months, bonding with the puppy, to be able to send the dog back later if it turns out to be unshowable.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

WOW...WOW...WOW...
Are there no other litters available?....are ALL "quality" puppies spoken for?
That size overbite will not correct without dental intervention.....(canine braces).
I'm sorry but the puppy is not "show or breed" quality.....nor should it ever be bred with that type of jaw problem.
A "little" overbite many, many times will correct itself when the puppy changes from puppy teeth to adult teeth.....but this situation is extreme.
They call it "parrot mouth" by many vets.

Being the #1 breeder (?).....I guess we all have different "definitions" of what it takes and means to be a reputable breeder........sure glad we're not #1.
*FWIW...not breeder trashing, just stating an opinion*.


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

They list 24 bitches currently being bred (all with excellent titles)... I'd wager they'll have something else to send.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What does the contract that you signed say about returns? 

If you bought the puppy as a show prospect than that's what you should get. This is probably the biggest overbite I've ever seen. 

I'd make sure your breeder knows very clearly that you want to exchange for the next available show prospect. Give her the chance to correct her mistake.

Selling a show prospect puppy with an overbite like that is just unacceptable in my book. It's kind of like selling a PPD prospect puppy that's afraid of it's own shadow. Same idea.


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Most breeders do state that shipping is the responcibility of the buyer. Send the puppy back, your shipping costs are less than what you paid for the pup. Hopefully the next puppy is show quality.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Shipping is almost always the responsibility of the buyer....even for a replacement.
I would definately, always give the breeder a chance to rectify the situation.....


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

Finally, after several back and forth emails. The breeder now agree to take the puppy back and refund me $2750. 
" Feel free to send your puppy back at anytime. 
You can send the puppy back to me COD."
I got a question. How do I ship a puppy with an airline that would do COD?


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I think it's pretty crappy to say the buyer is responsible for shipping charges when the puppy was VERY clearly misrepresented.

How is it right to say a breeder is in the right for shipping a misrepresented puppy and then saying "tough luck, it's on you now." This isn't a minor problem. This breeder had to have known about this problem and shipped pup anyway. How is this any different than sending the wrong gender, etc...would that still be on the buyer?


----------



## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I recommended based on my experience which has been great. I have 3 from that beeder. I never said they were the #1 breeder, though you may be saying they stated that not me.

That does look like an overbite. Did you send that picture so she could see it?

All I can say is I've always had great support from her.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

_I have to say..._I "thought" it was a different breeder..(different part of the US than here)...*That Kennel also states that they are #1 in the USA".....

I am sorry this happened to you.....glad to hear it will be rectified.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

seanl said:


> Finally, after several back and forth emails. The breeder now agree to take the puppy back and refund me $2750.
> "Feel free to send your puppy back at anytime.
> You can send the puppy back to me COD."
> I got a question. How do I ship a puppy with an airline that would do COD?


Call an airline and ask them.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think that's true with all breeders and you
shouldn't lump all breeders together when talking about
policies. i had a deposit on a pup and things didn't work out. 
the breeder gave my deposit back without any hassle and it
was suppose to be a non-refundable deposit which was explained
to me from the begining of our talks.



Jax's Mom said:


> It's vey difficult to get your money back or even part of your money back from any breeder which is why you have to do your research before the purchase.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

You're doing the right thing, get your money back and don't look back. I'm sorry this happened to you.


----------



## BestK9GSD (Oct 26, 2010)

So, if you send the puppy back, what will the breeder do with it? Will he at least be given to a good home as a "pet"? Just curious what's gonna happen to the little feller


----------



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I imagine the puppy will be a nice pet quality dog for a family, hopefully she discounts the price to cover the dental intervention that is certain to be needed. I don't blame the purchaser, if I paid that much for a "show quality" prospect and received that puppy, I would be mad, there is no way to know if any puppy will actually grow up to be a top show dog, but this one couldn't even get into the ring at all with that bite.


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> hopefully she discounts the price to cover the dental intervention that is certain to be needed.


The offer discounts for litters of untitled parents, so I don't see why not


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When I purchased my Skye Terrier it was from a very responsible breeder. I got him BECAUSE his bite was waaaay off.

I can't see the pictures here at work but I wouldn't be surprised if the puppy's bite is the same as my Dodger's was.

Dodger was sold as Pet quality because of the bite. The breeder said the bites can change SOME but told me his wouldn't correct itself enough.

By the time he was about 7 months old his bite was PERFECT. In fact, I showed him in AKC because he was such a nice specimen of the breed.

Now, not every dog that has a bad bite will self-correct ... but there IS a chance.

I would ask the breeder of the GSD pup how many other pups have they seen, with this bad of a bite, turn out with a normal bite by the time they were mature.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Glad you reached a settlement- sorry it all happened. I agree with Josie, take the money and go find another pup


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

Haven't heard anything back from her since last night. I have sent three emails without a responding. Not yet settled, I have to cross my fingers.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

do you have a phone number? I"d try calling them and speak to them personally,,tell them your going to set up the flight etc..

I'm so sorry this is just so sad, I'm sure your attached to that puppy


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd absolutely use the phone for communicating. If she won't take your calls, that really shows her integrity. 
I agree, what a sad situation.


----------



## Alois (Feb 4, 2011)

any updates on this?


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Hummmm....now posting on the database....two weeks later!!!


----------



## aManicCookie (Apr 23, 2011)

dawnandjr said:


> Hummmm....now posting on the database....two weeks later!!!


Huh?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He posted that the same day as he posted here, May 15...I still wonder why there was never an update on either thread. I hope the breeder did the right thing and took the pup back with full refund/shipping included. It was a sale that was fraudulent, IMO. Especially since the pup was sold as a show prospect.


----------



## aManicCookie (Apr 23, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> He posted that the same day as he posted here, May 15...I still wonder why there was never an update on either thread. I hope the breeder did the right thing and took the pup back with full refund/shipping included. It was a sale that was fraudulent, IMO. Especially since the pup was sold as a show prospect.


Oh okay. I get it now. I've been watching to see if this ever got updated I wanted to know how it ended.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Over bites are NOT uncommon in many working lines and much of the time will NOT affect the adult dog or cause a health problem.

I know this because I was concerned about Bretta when her adult teeth were coming in and went to see and EXPENSIVE specialist! This specialist said she had seen this same issue crop up in many of the POLICE dogs she saw in the area and MOST of the time the adult teeth fixed themselves as they grew out. She also recommended I massage the canines out a few times a day as they were coming in to possibly help them grow in right.

The WORST thing that can happen (and is rare) is if the canines do NOT grow outwards but instead inward and poke holes into the upper palate of the dogs mouth. This did not happen to Bretta, she is now just fine.


----------



## GSDLongTimer (Feb 13, 2011)

The breeder did take the pup back and it was never in question.
This guy made a big stink out of nothing because he didn't get a response in a minute and half. 

The breeder actually went above the warranty which is puppy replacment and gave the guy his money back because he was such an unpleasant person, to put it politely. He also harrassed the person that made the recommendation.


----------



## Grimsin (Jun 15, 2011)

If i paid $3000 dollars+ for a dog with a MAJOR issue. i would be much more unpleasant then he was. Oh and the breeder should of called the op and discussed this whole ordeal instead of all threw email, a "REPUTABLE BREEDER" whould do this.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when you buy a show quality dog what does that mean.

does it mean that the dog will be an easily won champion, a select , a V1 , a SG 46 ?? what?

the overbite was very evident -- but my history dealing with ASL in the very early years , this over bite was not such a rarity, it did crop up , now and again. 
Experience also taught me that from those lines there always seemed to be a correction, the lower jaw did catch up and by 8 or 9 months be a proper scissor bite.

I have not seen it in the working lines .

Often the entire head set was a more narrow , longer type .

The pups were called Andy Gumps or Shark jaws,

Another thing I saw was the occassional alarming wry mouth . 

I learned that the head is basically in four parts, each of which may grow out of synch with another . 

In the overbite the lower jaw falls short of the upper jaw (chinless wonder)
In the undershot the lower jaw is forward of the upper jaw , example the bull breeds which are exaggerated .

It is more likely for a overbite to correct itself than it is for an undershot jaw .

So that takes care of two plates, the upper and lower jaw, but the head also has a left and right side. In the event that either side does not grow in harmony with the other than one side will be longer and the other shorter causing a buckling effect , or looking like he smacked into wall and broke his nose. Depending on the difference in the sides it can be minor or drastic . Generally a minor deviance will correct itself . 
I have seem some real bad cases from a breeder that was in my area when I first moved in . (same vets office -- and later ran into some of her dogs in matches and obedience classes).

Usually you will see these as family patterns.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I would think a 3000.00 dollar show quality pup would at least be able to set foot in the show ring, where he places from there is up to the judges, but this pup had strike one before even entering the ring.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

GSDLongTimer said:


> The breeder did take the pup back and it was never in question.
> *This guy made a big stink out of nothing because he didn't get a response in a minute and half. *
> 
> The breeder actually went above the warranty which is puppy replacment and gave the guy his money back because he was such an unpleasant person, to put it politely. He also harrassed the person that made the recommendation.


Nothing? I'd love to hear your definition of "nothing". Because those pictures are far from "nothing".
And a big woohoo for the breeder for going above the warranty. :rolleyes2: In my opinion, that breeder had no business selling that dog as show quality. 
That is just reprehensible.
You wouldn't believe how unpleasant I would be if that happened to me.


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

GSDLongTimer said:


> The breeder did take the pup back and it was never in question.
> This guy made a big stink out of nothing because he didn't get a response in a minute and half.
> 
> The breeder actually went above the warranty which is puppy replacment and gave the guy his money back because he was such an unpleasant person, to put it politely. He also harrassed the person that made the recommendation.


 First, sorry to gsd lovers on the forum that I have bring this thread back live after I saw the post. To GSDLongTimer: how could you consider 2 months of waiting as a minute and half? The breeder agreed to give me a replacement of the puppy after numerous emails, phone calls + posts in pedigreedatabase.com and here. She NEVER EVER wanted to give my money back, not even a PENNY! The total cost for the puppy is over $4000. I would like to see how would you deal with this issue while in this situation as a BUYER(maybe you are the breeder). AGAIN! HOW DID I HARRASSED THE PERSON WHO MADE THE RECOMMENDATION?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sean I'm glad you've come back and posted an update and cleared up what your experience was.

2 months to get this resolved in my opinion, is way to long Sorry you had to go thru it. 

I hope your new puppy is doing well..


----------



## seanl (Feb 2, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> sean I'm glad you've come back and posted an update and cleared up what your experience was.
> 
> 2 months to get this resolved in my opinion, is way to long Sorry you had to go thru it.
> 
> I hope your new puppy is doing well..


 Thank you for your bless JakodaCD. I have not received the puppy yet. The breeder had promised to send me the replacement puppy sometime this week. I have my fingers crossed and praying to god it will never happen again.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I hope so to..please post pics of your new puppy when you get him, would love to see him


----------



## getfaizi (Mar 26, 2005)

*Hi, I have 4 months old german shepherd puppy and it seems like he is theething, please see the pics and help me judge if his bite is gonna be normal or overshot. please note teeth are so small that if I close his month for pics his swollen gums of upper and lower jaw contacts and not the teeth... please provide your valuable input. thanks in advance.*


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I cannot see the images so I am not sure if I am the only one. I would also recommend starting a new thread for your pup's issue.


----------



## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

Seems to me that this is just an example of how things can go wrong in purchasing a GSD.After reading all the posts, good & bad, it is kind of eye opening to those who wish to make a smart buy, show dog or not- it's not always a smooth transaction between the buyer and the breeder if problems arise. Even if the prospective buyer does their homework on selecting a reputable breeder, sometimes things happen with puppies. Reputable breeders always make good on their puppies- if they are truly reputable. A no. 1 breeder 's most important job as a breeder is: TO PRODUCE THE BEST GSD POSSIBLE, FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED. IMHO


----------

