# Can someone please answer...



## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I have noticed latley that some people dont like Am showline dogs, what it is about them that people really dislike?

I dont mean this to start a argument, this is an honest question. So please no rude comments.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

If you pay attention there are three main camps of Shepherds. Many view the working line people as ones who concentrate on working their dogs, usually in SCH sometimes in herding, seldom on showing in conformation. Many view the German Show lines as dogs who have to acheive some type of a working title in order to breed in accordance with the SV, however, their prime focus is on showing in the SV ring. Then many view the AM lines as only dogs bred for a flying trot and not working AT all (while some AM line breeders do NOT even get as much as CGC's there are others that do OB, Agility and Herding). These are very broad assumptions which are sometimes cause very heated debates which leads to one group or another belittling the other camps. 

There are vast amounts of differences in structure and temperament between the three groups as well. This leads to more heated debates on which views are correct; for which there is not absolute answer that everyone will agree. 

Clear as mud?


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Yeah very, It just makes me sad to hear people belittle the Am showlines, like they are some kind of disease.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

To give you a general idea of some of the "arguments" from each camp:

American lines tend to be viewed as hock walking, weak nerved and over angulated dogs that lost all ability to work.

Euro Show Lines tend to be viewed as roached back, pretty dogs that cannot work.

Euro working lines are ill-structured dogs that are too "driven" to live with psycho monsters.

Quite honestly none of it is completly true while some of it is not incorrect either. 

People that are heavily involved in their version of the breed are very passionate that "their" version is the only "correct" version.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

yes, i also understand that people that are involved in their "version" will think that they are correct. I love all three but it seems like i hear more bad things about the Am bred lines.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

My personal view follows. There are dogs in each line I like, however there is one theme that holds true in the dogs I like: intelligent, active, agile, versatile, able to work in some capacity (even if it's just agility). A lot of American line dogs are wobbly and drunk-looking when they walk. To me, no dog should be like that aside from a health problem but many American lines are like this because of how they were bred. My beef carries through to other breeds- I cannot stand what has happened to the American cocker spaniel and the showlines of much of the Gundog and Herding group. AKC showline border collies just aren't really border collies anymore. The terrier group is a sheer, utter mess- only a handful can do their original jobs. The English bulldog can't even have natural births due to breeding for that stupidly enormous head and wonky body. It's downright depressing.

I suppose my beef is not with the dogs so much as the breeders and judges and clubs who perpetuate caricatured versions of dogs who were once truly functional. The English bulldog can barely breathe correctly. The show springer spaniel would get stuck in a bush five minutes into a hunt or field trial. Some show border collies have no sheep sense. Many American showlines would physically break down if they did the types of activities more "structurally normal" dogs did. In the interest of type and fixing even more type, so many health problems have been bred into our breeds. A recent show exposed just how bad it is in the popular Cavalier King Charles spaniel, to the point where breeders were WILLINGLY breeding dogs with neurological problems and looking down on people who were questioning that practice. It's just a crying shame.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

yes it is.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Some folks on this board have American-line dogs that are gorgeous, strong, _and stable!_ I *think* .. not sure.. maybe WiscTiger and Amaruq have the ones I am thinking of-- REALLY gorgeous, sound-minded dogs that I happen to envy... yes, envy!!

That said, I personally don't like _the most extreme _Am showline dogs _bred specificly to do well in specialty shows_. In my viewpoint, these specimens are too often nervous, flighty, insecure, unstable in the mind.

Again... these extreme "specialty type" Am line show dogs differ from the VERY nice stable, smart, handsome hobby-breeder American dogs bred to be smart, reliable companions.

I can admit that I am leery of weak nerves in those extreme Am showlines bred for specialty wins. That aside, I can not look down upon any type of GSD-- there are sane, stable members in each group.... one must be a good researcher and shopper to avoid the problem dogs in each type, and find that perfect match.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

While we appreciate your envy, Patti, my guys are German Working with some German Show lines (which are actually black and red working dogs but....). 

Daphne (Andaka) has some nice AM lines THAT WORK too.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

This goes with the German showlines as well.



I don't care what breed of dog it is, but if it was originally intended to perform, it should STILL be able to PERFORM. I wonder how much pain this dog would be in if it would have to work. Even just biking along with its owner or going on a hike, backpacking in the woods! I think a dog like this would have issues just in an active home. That cannot be comfortable. What purpose does this serve?


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

> Quote:*yes, i also understand that people that are involved in their "version" will think that they are correct. I love all three but it seems like i hear more bad things about the Am bred lines.*


I’m afraid that the bad things that you hear about American bred GSDs is based upon what people observe at AKC All Breed and Specialty shows.

The majority of GSDs that I have seen at AKC events are super angulated in the rear, cow hocked to the point that they interfere as they move. They move on their hocks in a wobbly, weak manner. It’s heartbreaking how extreme some have become.

That being said, it is important to know that not all American breds are like this. In our circle of friends/ breeders there are only two of us that breed German blood lines (this makes for some interesting exchanges now and then). For those friends that breed American lines, not many of their dogs look like those that I described earlier.

Gotta tell you that it has been my observation that few of the “German” looking “American” dogs do well in the AKC show ring.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: Daphne (Andaka) has some nice AM lines THAT WORK too.


Thnks Val. Yes, mine are more than just a pretty face. Unfortunately my website is down (AOL cancel free hosting of websites) or I would send you for a look.

Or I could bore everyone with pictures here?!?


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I would love to see some pictures of your dogs!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Emjworks05 I love all three but it seems like i hear more bad things about the Am bred lines.


thats simply because they are the farthest from the breeds original standard.

its actually pretty similar to cars in my opinion. some people actually take their 4x4 off roading... some prefer to bedazzle them and get it detailed every week...


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Id really like to hear from some people that own Am bred Shepherds. If you dont want to post here you are more than welcome to PM me.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

my first gsd was am bred - what are you wondering in particular?

we chose her because that is simply all we knew at the time and wanted that classic shepherd _look_. in america, american bred are most common... thats what you see... thats what you know... so it sets the standard for some.

all of the typical "complaints" that you hear about am bred dogs - isnt what we experienced at all. sierra was an all around good family dog... companion... pet... or what have you.

she was not extreme in any area (temperament / conformation)... the more i learned about the breed, there were certain traits that i began to desire and look for in my next dog... and so on. 

gia is a bi color from working lines. after her was rexy who was am bred... then kiely who is a mix but judging by her color and personality i'd also guess working lines as well... tilden is a b/r coated german showline... my next gsd will likely be another b/r coated german showline... i think they're gorgeous and their temperament & drive is what suits me best.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Im curious to see what Am bred owners have to say like temperment, drive, confirmation etc......


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I adopted a Can/Am show lines 6 year old a year and a half ago, until then I had Belgians, both coated varieties. I did obedience, agility and some showing with them. I adopted Meisha when my last Belgian was dying. I love her temperment so much when my daughter decided to adopt an adult she got a similar line one 2.5 year old male. Anyway we love their temperment and personality so much I got another,. Anyway their nerves are solid. Drive is what I can handle and am comfortable with. I introduced agility and herding to my older dog and she took to both, as did The adult male. We will never do protection work as that is not in my interest, however I have always found, and yes it has been tested, that a dog who is very bonded with the family, and has obedience training will offer as much deterent as I need. So it becomes, what can you handle? What are you interested in? And be honest as to your abilities, dedication and time to put in and then find a breeder you trust and can deal with and find the right match,bond and enjoy.
None of these dogs are extreme angulated so can do what they are bred for, the older male is the most angulated and at tending training seminar the trainer said he was natural and wanted to know his lines because he was so good at doing this after only seeing sheep once before he instinctively turned the flock of 20 three times, keeping them where they were supposed to be.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote: Daphne (Andaka) has some nice AM lines THAT WORK too.
> ...


Not Val







but you are welcome. Please feel free to post pics of your dogs here!!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: Im curious to see what Am bred owners have to say like temperment, drive, confirmation etc......


My American Show Line dogs are neither extreme nor nervy. I have 4 generations of dogs that compete in AKC performance events -- several have even been show dogs. They also have good hips and are healthy dogs.

This is Tag, who most people are tired of hearing about. Tag was the #2 GSD show dog in 2004, and was awarded an Award of Merit at Westminster in 2005. He was 4th Veterans Dog (7-9 years) at the National this year and High Scoring Champion in Rally. Tag didn't get all of the titles I wanted for him for several reasons -- He was on the road as a show dog for 2004, I fell and hurt myself pretty bad in 2004 and again in 2007, and complcations from my diabietes makes travelling alone difficult. So he is my service dog instead. He picks up things that i drop, steadies me up and down the stairs, helps with the laundry, etc. Stuff much more important than any titles. Tag is FA hips (good), elbows, cardiac, thyroid. He is GSDCA temperament tested and a registered Therapy dog. Tag and I often work with children by giving "dog bite prevention" talks to elementary school age kids.




























More to come.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I think he's gorgeous.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Tag is what we need to see more of! If the majority of the American lines were like Tag, I don't think we'd be having so much discussion on the line's problems.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Chapter 2: Kizzy

Kizzy was a beautiful little bitch that had great instinct for herding. She was RHIT at the 2002 GSDCA National (beaten by a pro trainer). She also enjoyed Rally (or at least the time spent with Mom doing Rally). She was OFA hips, DJD1 elbows so she never had a litter. She also has two sister with perofrmance titles.




























Still more to come:


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Wow your dogs are gorgeous!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Thanks so much.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Chapter 3: Keno

Keno is the sire of Tag and Kizzy. And my heart dog. Keno did everything I ever asked him to do. He had championships (and group placings) with 4 organizations in 3 different countries. He had titles in obedience, herding, and agility. He even earned his Utility Dog title with 2 firsts and a third placing. Infact, every leg he earned for every performance title came with a placing. All Owner/Breeder trained and handled. Keno was also a therapy dog for 8 years at a local hospital. He was often on TV and in the newspaper representing the GSD breed favorably. I was aways proud of him.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I actually prefer the look of a well-pigmented, moderately-angulated American/Canadian line GSD, as opposed to a roach-backed German show line.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Oh wow you have amazing dogs Dahpne.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

While they are "smarter than the average bear"







anyone can have dogs like that if they work hard at it. Look for a breeder who does things you like to do, buy the best dog you can afford, then just train hard.

It can be done


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Daphne, i was wondering if i could send you a PM?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Emjworks05Daphne, i was wondering if i could send you a PM?


Sure. I'll try to answer any questions the best I can.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Emjworks05I have noticed latley that some people dont like Am showline dogs, what it is about them that people really dislike?
> 
> I dont mean this to start a argument, this is an honest question. So please no rude comments.


It's not that I dislike them, they are just more rare around here (I have honestly never encountered one besides being at AKC and UKC shows), so I have no experience with them. I wanted to do the Sieger style showing because for me that is a lot of fun, so I felt it best to get a dog that fits this "type". If I was into the more formal style of showing, and all-breed or specialty, then I would have picked an American line dog. I prefer the structure, movement, and overall look of the west German show line dogs.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

I always admired Daphne and still do. I aim to show and breed GSD's on the same level, for show and performance. I cannot abide a dumb dog. 

As for my amer male, he is a bit more angulated than I want. 
But he is clean coming and going, and he can herd, and I hope to get him titled soon. I realized early that he must be roadworked, or swim, to keep his rear clean. I've worked him and watched him RUN for 2-3 hrs, nearly non stop, along with my ger. dog. He only stopped because I got tired of standing out in the field!

He is hardly weak nerved. You know, there are some nuts out there, but he's not one. I would like more drive from him, but he's been kennel raised, and seeing the way his brothers are, if I had gotten him as a puppy, he's be as insane as they are (in a good way). 

I live in a bad neighborhood, where gun shots are normal most nights. We've been outside and inside and heard the shots close and far. He's not going to flinch. And he is actually more bidable than my ger male, who has a bad case of separation anxiety. I thought for sure we would fail the CGC because of his screaming (germans do tend to be more vocal). Chopper is used to being passed to handlers, and all the movement of shows, so he never even sniffed when the stranger with a dog went by, and did not worry when I left him. If the guns not enough, try spending a week in a school, with screaming kids, crowed hallways and elevators. See my 2 y/o niece grab Chopper's tail or try to get on his back. That's all the proof I need. Then watch him turn around and warn off a stranger. 


It does bother me that people cannot appreciate more than one type, and the hostility that occurs towards amer bred sheps is why I stopped posting to this board. I love all types of german shepherds, and take offense to the fact that anyone would consider it right to take away the name from them. Yes they look different in different venues, but they are not so different that they look like two different breeds, as some working people suggest. 

Working line folks say some really nasty things about show folks, but not once have I ever heard show folks doing the same! We don't belittle their dogs or sport, to each his own, and we leave it up to the versatility of the dog to define what it will become. A lot of us have both. 

Why don't more amer bred dogs work their dogs to prove folks wrong? Well first, those kind of people cannot be proven worng, because they will shoot down every argument you make, and every dog you show them becomes an exception, not proof. 

Secondly some of us find SCH a little barbaric, but hey, to each his own. Third, all of these venues are expensive, and most of us don't live off of our dogs, we work, so we choose to compete in a few areas, if not just one. And often the training for one is opposed to the other, so you try to finish your dog in one venue before you choose another and hope you don't go broke. 

You should join a show shepherd list. We talk all the tiem about how to fix these problems. We are trying to get the folks who breed like this to stop. We think if we can educate the judges on which dogs to pick, they ones who breed incorrectly will stop breeding this way, and we can save our venue. 

I've been on the Leerburg board and left. I used to be pro-german working line all the way. Then I met folks from the regional club and saw that I could have it both ways. So now I'd rather be on the side of reforming the hock walker than with the hatred and intolerance that working line folks spew out (not every workign line person is like this, which is my point from the begining).


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: I always admired Daphne and still do. I aim to show and breed GSD's on the same level, for show and performance. I cannot abide a dumb dog.


Thanks.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: chasethedog
> 
> Working line folks say some really nasty things about show folks, but not once have I ever heard show folks doing the same! We don't belittle their dogs or sport, to each his own, and we leave it up to the versatility of the dog to define what it will become. A lot of us have both.
> 
> ...


As far as the show lines not jumping on the working lines- I have personally experienced it, more than once. Comments regarding the poor conformation of my "vicious attack dogs" etc. So yes, it DOES go both ways.

I commend you for working with the lines that you like to make improvements to the breed. That should be the foundation of ANY involved with this (or any other) breed. The dogs should be able to work, hunt or be a 'pet'. Dogs that were originated to work should still be able to do those jobs. Dogs that were originated to be a pet can fill that role quite appropriately.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Daphne, I love your dogs and that is the vision I had when I went to adopt a dog, and then when I went to buy one. First I must be able to live with it, then it must be healthy, then it must look good. I want to be able to do any and everything that comes to my interest. This is the breed that is supposed to be able to do it all and that is what I went looking for. 
Amaruq, I have also heard those words from people, and I try to explain there should be a dog for everyone adn the problem comes, I think, when we have bitter in breed fighting instead of trying to educate and breed better healthier dogs. I don't want to have breed bans, and I definitely don't want this breed added to any such list.
I hope I can do half of what the Andaka dogs do, then I will be happy.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: I hope I can do half of what the Andaka dogs do, then I will be happy.


Thanks.









You guys are starting to embarass me!


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

I hope not. There aren't many who try to find the balance in this breed. You have done that successfully, and you don't say much about it. It's the ones that help perpetuate the problem that are the most visible.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: chasethedog Third, all of these venues are expensive, and most of us don't live off of our dogs, we work, so we choose to compete in a few areas, if not just one.


That's the crux of the issue for me! That, and given ring trends, who is breeding selectively for drive, etc it doesn't seem possible to put a CH, VA, and SchH3 or HGH on a single dog.

The other main issue for me is the concept of "work". I have a working line bitch and she competes in rally and agility and also has certificates for other types of temperament tests and herding. But to me "work" is more than obedience titles, agility titles, rally-0, herding three sheep around some cones.... work to me is a Service Dog, a HGH-type herding dog that moves and tends some 300+ head of sheep every day, a police K9 or military dog. I love doing obedience and agility but to me that just doesn't cut it. Even my own dog has some temperament issues and thus I would feel uncomfortable using those types of titles as proof that she is sound and can "work". Some of my friends dogs have even worse temperament issues and do fine in the ring. Some of these dogs have absolutely no drive whatsoever.

So I guess for me, "working line" is not indicative of a dog that actually works, and all Kenya's titles just say that I'm able to communicate with my dog in ways that I can train her some new things and keep her focused in the ring. Beyond that, I dunno....I've just always been uncomfortable with the idea obediece, rally, agility, and herding titles prove breedworthiness. When it comes to GSDs I am primarily interested in drive, attitude, and sound temperament. In my experience, most of the performance events are not clear indicators of these attributes (and I say that based on the GSDs I have seen attain such titles that are NOT of appropriate drive, sound temperament, etc).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just to embarass Daphne further... she definitely deserves major kudos for what she does with her dogs and the dedication to not just claim they are more than pretty faces, but get out there and prove it. (And that's coming from a dyed in the wool working line person!) 



> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: chasethedog
> ...


Agree there. I've heard plenty of those comments, seen them posted all over the internet. Working lines are ugly, vicious, hyperactive, can't be pets, will eat your children, turn on their owners, etc.....





> Originally Posted By: Liesje Even my own dog has some temperament issues and thus I would feel uncomfortable using those types of titles as proof that she is sound and can "work". Some of my friends dogs have even worse temperament issues and do fine in the ring. Some of these dogs have absolutely no drive whatsoever.
> 
> So I guess for me, "working line" is not indicative of a dog that actually works, and all Kenya's titles just say that I'm able to communicate with my dog in ways that I can train her some new things and keep her focused in the ring.


But see, THAT is the whole point of working and gaining titles to begin with. It's not just to show what the dog can do, it's to learn about the dog along the way. That is the most important aspect of titling... all that goes into it really exposes who the dog is. The more strenuous and varied the venue, the more is learned about the dog. Breeding decisions shouldn't be made based on letters and numbers after a dog's name... they should be made based on what was learned about the dog. To me, titles don't necessarily say a dog is breedworthy. They tell me that someone, somewhere knows that dog well enough to know if it is breedworthy, and what traits to look for in a mate to compensate for weaknesses and enhance strengths, because of the time and energy they put into getting those titles.

Those people who's dogs have temperament weaknesses but also titles, would the number and scope of those weaknesses have become apparent if they'd never worked and titled the dog, and it just puttered around the house and took the occasional trip to the pet store? Maybe some might be obvious, but certainly not all, and not to as great a degree. And even then, their owners may never have gained the knowledge and experience themselves to be able to recognize them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris, I agree, I am just uncomfortable with using a title like a CD, CDX, RAE, etc to demonstrate that my dog can "work" and/or is breedworthy. For me it has to be something that pushes the dog and handler much harder than that. I am not accusing anyone here of this but I HAVE seen a fair share of people/breeders using things like the CGC as something that proves breedworthiness. I've got a nervy dog with a CGC and a dog that sometimes won't even respond to his name with a CGC. The titles I have on Kenya are like "certificates of achievement" to me. They show that we spent a lot of time together polishing specific things and were able to demonstrate them in the ring fairly consistently but I would not take those titles and say my dog is as proven as say a dog that is multiple time SchH3. And I don't say that b/c I'm a "Schutzhund person" or think the other titles are dumb (quite the opposite, I'm a total SchH noob), I just think that as far as testing what matters for a dog to be breedworthy, I don't consider most of the performance titles to be relevant and am uncomfortable at how quickly some people will advertise them as such. I would rather have a puppy from a dog that was untitled but a dog I'd seen on the field demonstrating his drive and attitude than a dog who had CH CDX MACH RAE but I knew was nervy and reactive. (But I suppose that gets into a whole other issue of not picking a dog just based on a picture on the internet and what's on the dog's scorebook/points and awards record...)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Any time spent training a dog will teach you something about that dog. The problem is that many people who set out to become breeders are not students of the breed nor do they understand anything about character, drives, etc. Those people will be the ones that think that a CGC is a training title.

But don't discount AKC titles so quickly. It is a real challenge to teach a dog to do scent discrimination or a drop on recall. Even rally offers challenges such as the moving stand and backing up. To run smart in agility you have to know your dog's strengths and weaknesses. In herding, your dog will have more instinct than you do, so you better be able to keep up! Tracking is the hardest for me, because I am a control freak and I have trouble trusting my dog.

Titles are just the tio of the iceberg. The big part -- no matter what venue you compete in -- is the training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka The problem is that many people who set out to become breeders are not students of the breed nor do they understand anything about character, drives, etc. Those people will be the ones that think that a CGC is a training title.


Well said! I guess that's what I was getting at. So many people fall into that trap, though, and one thing that's sad to me about that is how potential buyers place these titles on a pedestal and miss out on all the fun! Not to say these titles are easy, but you don't have to be a professional dog trainer or breeder to train and get titles if you want. Then there's the people that accuse you of doing it just to boost your *own* ego.....grrrr! I actually hate being in the ring, but it seems to be a confidence boost for Kenya and I've found that somtimes the 1 minute in the ring goes by more smoothly than a lot of the practice sessions. It *is* nice to have a ribbon and certificate for all the hard work....

At any rate, as was mentioned before for me it boils down to time and money. I actually think it would be fun to put Nikon in the AKC ring and heck if I had all that money for entry fees I'd keep doing it over and over even if it would take ten years to earn one point. But....why put money into something we probably can't conquer. I want to do UKC too and he should be OK there but it's either that or the german style conformation unless I win the lottery and quit my day job...


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

It's been my experience that Show lines, being American OR German, tend to have more health problems (physical and mental) than the Working Lines. I could be wrong, but these are the dogs that I see coming in frequently to the veterinary offices where I have worked. I think each type of GSD has it's strengths and weaknesses. I've been doing extensive research on my female's pedigree and found that she is a mixture of all the lines, Am Show, Ger Show, West Working, and DDR. I think too much of anything is a BAD thing, so I'm really beginning to prefer the mixed lines.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think we should start 3 groups:

A Group For

A Group Against

A, I Don't Know But Maybe Group

these 3 groups could represent all of the different Shepherds.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

why would you want to start a group for against any kind of line?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12It's been my experience that Show lines, being American OR German, tend to have more health problems (physical and mental) than the Working Lines. I could be wrong, but these are the dogs that I see coming in frequently to the veterinary offices where I have worked. I think each type of GSD has it's strengths and weaknesses. I've been doing extensive research on my female's pedigree and found that she is a mixture of all the lines, Am Show, Ger Show, West Working, and DDR. I think too much of anything is a BAD thing, so I'm really beginning to prefer the mixed lines.


But if you look at the BIG picture there are far more dogs bred for Show (American AND German) than there are working lines. It would only make sense that there would be a higher % of "show" lines in the vet simply because there are far more to begin with.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the against means a group who doesn't like certain things in a line. there's something you don't like in certain Sheps isn't there?? don't feel excluded because you can be apart of that group also.

don't take the group idea seriously. i was making a funny.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12It's been my experience that Show lines, being American OR German, tend to have more health problems (physical and mental) than the Working Lines.


I think it holds some truth. Nothing carved in stone, but a working line pup that comes from dogs that actually work (being of certain line means little) has lesser probabilities of having bad health problems. With or without Xrays, with or without ADN testing... work is by itself a health test. A dog with crippling hips or with MegaE wont achieve a Schutzhund3 no matter how much training.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

And unfortunately many show dogs are bred with health problems only because they've done so well in the ring. Remember the BBC documentary and the Cavalier breeders?







I don't think this happens as much in the working world and probably less so in breeds that are still mostly workers, where it's less about type and looks and more about breeding dogs to do the job.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

My philosophy is to buy from a good breeder. If you want a working dog, buy from a breeder that trains and titles their own dogs. If you want a show dog, buy from a breeder who has accomplished much in the show ring. If you want a pet, you want a dog from a breeder who tests for health, trains and trials their own dogs, and has accomplished much.

The less the buyer knows, the more the breeder needs to know to help them out. I might know enough about the American show lines to go to a new breeder and expect to come away with a great dog. But if I wanted a working line dog, I would go to someone whose reputation and experience was highly rated since I would be mostly in the dark about the lines and how they grow up.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Doggiedad, I wasnt sure what to make of what you said. No hostility intended.


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