# Fleischerheim?



## Hidden Valley Farms

I'm new to this forum but would this kennel be a reputable place to buy from? AND...are these typical prices one would expect to pay for a very well bred puppy? TIA

www.fleischerheim.com


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## Vinnie

Hi HVF. :welcome: 
I moved your post out of the other thread and started a new one for you. This way it won't get lost in the other thread and hopefully you'll get more answers.


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## GSDElsa

What are you looking for in a dog?

Couple things I don't care for are the fact they have tiered pricing ($1500-$7500 and up) and they have a gazillion litters on the ground at once.


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## Hidden Valley Farms

I am looking for a female who is first a wonderful companion. I want a quiet thoughtful temperament. I have a handicaped daughter and the temperament is extremely important.

She must be from champion lines on both dam and sire side. She must come from proven health lines far back in her pedigree. She must have correct conformation with substantial bone but not necessarily oversized.

I know it's a tall order but I really want a VERY good female.

TIA
Chris
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net


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## robinhuerta

You speak of "Champion Lines" on both Dam & Sire, then also require "Proven" health lines as far back in the pedigree.......?
I know Bill's bloodlines.....they are primarily West German Showlines......other than Hip & Elbow certification....I do not believe that there is much more certified/required "health testing" done in Germany?
I guess, ...I am not clearly understanding your post?
The temperament & bone structure, is not a "special" trait for this breed.....it should be standard. However;..."quiet"??..puppy?....maybe that's the tall order!...hahaha!
Robin


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## robinhuerta

BTW....you have beautiful horses!


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## Samba

After 12 years with German Shepherds, I personally wouldn't consider this kennel for myself. I also would not have to pay the listed prices for a nice puppy.


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## Hidden Valley Farms

robinhuerta said:


> You speak of "Champion Lines" on both Dam & Sire, then also require "Proven" health lines as far back in the pedigree.......?
> I know Bill's bloodlines.....they are primarily West German Showlines......other than Hip & Elbow certification....I do not believe that there is much more certified/required "health testing" done in Germany?
> I guess, ...I am not clearly understanding your post?
> The temperament & bone structure, is not a "special" trait for this breed.....it should be standard. However;..."quiet"??..puppy?....maybe that's the tall order!...hahaha!
> Robin


 
I apologize in advance for my lack of understanding of all the proper terminology for the GSD. I am researching all this but as you know, There's a lot to learn.

As far as temperament, in horse breeding we have lines that are known to be a little hotter (or a lot hotter) and these horses may have the extra spice to take a professional to the top but may not be a great match for a amateur rider. Other lines are know to produce amateur friendly brains. That is what I mean by a quieter temperament. My friends have a beautiful GSD but the dog is hyper and nervous. That's not a good match for my family. 

I know puppies are very active but I'm talking about the internal temperament and not the behavior of a busy puppy.

Thank you for the compliments on my horses. I've been working on them for years and that's probably why I'm taking my time picking the right GSD for my family.

I am considering importing a dog but would also love an NA bred one. As a breeder of American bred Sporthorses from German lines, I truly appreciate a REALLY well bred American animal and would love to support the American breeders. )

I hope that helps a little.


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## Jessiewessie99

I was looking at their kennels yesterday!lol. What breed of horses do you know? I am horse lover.=) I love Arabians.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Hidden Valley Farms said:


> I'm new to this forum but would this kennel be a reputable place to buy from? AND...are these typical prices one would expect to pay for a very well bred puppy? TIA
> 
> www.fleischerheim.com


That is a LOT of money, and you shouldn't have any trouble finding similar lines for much less.


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## Jessiewessie99

I would suggest:

Kennels Von Lotta-http://www.vonlotta.com/

Hill View Kennels-http://www.hillview-kennels.com/

Alta-Tollhaus German Shepherd Dogs-http://www.24kgsd.com/

I know you want a very well bred female puppy, but have you considered a GSD rescue? Since its spring time, many rescues will more than likely have puppies. If not, then look at the above breeders listed. I am considering a dog from 1 of these 3 breeders, I am also getting a dog at the Coastal German Shepherd Rescue(They have litters of GSD puppies available).


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## katieliz

i was going to recommend alta-tollhaus to you. it may take a while, and you will need to be approved as a buyer, but julie richards-mostosky is an absolute expert at matching puppies with owners. she is also extremely conscientious about health testing, health requirements of the dogs she breeds. i have an alta-tollhaus boy and a girl who goes back to alta-tollhaus breeding. they are the best.

THE ADVENTURES OF SERAPHINA BLUE & THE MAN IN BLACK


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## Sigurd's Mom

The kennel where I got Sigurd from has used Fleischerheim dogs in their breedings. I like the dogs a lot. I would recommend Kolenda Kennels if you are interested in the dogs that look like Fleischerheim. I know right now that they have a couple females for breeding at the moment from Fleischerheim.

Kolenda Kennels


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## JakodaCD OA

where are you located (just in general) this may help people steer you towards a breeder in your vacinty as well


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## katieliz

i second the rescue suggestion also, there are some FABULOUS shepherds in rescue.


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## GSDElsa

uh, yeah your horses are nice! WOW. I heart them!!!! 

Picking my chin off floor now...


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## Emoore

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I know you want a very well bred female puppy, but have you considered a GSD rescue? Since its spring time, many rescues will more than likely have puppies.


Or even better than a rescue puppy, since there's a special-needs child in the picture, would be an adult with a proven temperament. That way, what you see is what you get. You don't have to wonder if your pup is going to grow up like the breeder predicted she would at 8 weeks old. And you can do a LOT of health testing on a rescue for a fraction of what you'd pay for a pup from a reputable breeder.


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## Jessiewessie99

where are the pictures of her horses? o.o


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## Andaka

On her webiste listed in her signature.


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## Jessiewessie99

oh. lol. doh.lol

omg. they are drop dead gorgeous.


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## lcordova

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I would suggest:
> 
> Alta-Tollhaus German Shepherd Dogs-http://www.24kgsd.com/
> 
> .


If you are a breeder, please dont buy from breeders that sell dogs with tiered prices.Only people that has not done a good research buys from them.

Besides Alta-Tollhaus consider Kirchenwald. In this forum everybody gives good reviews to both of them.

Or perhaps you should try drachefeld, they also breed horses...) and is also extremely well reviewed here.

Luis


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## katieliz

wasn't happy with the way something came across that i posted. i didn't mean that alta-tollhaus dogs, or my dogs in particular, are literally "the best". my kidz are just the best *to me.* i know tho that everyone feels that way about their sheppies, cause sheppies are the best! just wanted to clear that up!


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## crs996

To the OP: PM sent


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## Jessiewessie99

lcordova said:


> If you are a breeder, please dont buy from breeders that sell dogs with tiered prices.Only people that has not done a good research buys from them.
> 
> Besides Alta-Tollhaus consider Kirchenwald. In this forum everybody gives good reviews to both of them.
> 
> Or perhaps you should try drachefeld, they also breed horses...) and is also extremely well reviewed here.
> 
> Luis


ummmm...I am not a breeder, and don't plan on breeding, so I don't know what your talking about in ur first sentence. I was suggesting breeders to the OP, since she was looking for breeders. 

So please rephrase what your talking about, because its confusing.


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## Chris Wild

For solid German show lines with good temperament, I'd also second (third? fourth?) the Alta-Tollhaus recommendation.


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## Liesje

Never gone to a Fleischereim kennel myself, but they are basically a large scale commercial breeding operation of west German show lines. They really are not breeding any different lines and type than a dozen other smaller/hobby kennels that are going to offer a better price and better support just by virtue of the fact that it's a smaller operation. I've seen people who love their Fleischereim dogs and people who've had bad experiences with the dogs and/or people. 

The dogs are good quality, type-y west German show dogs. On average, no better or worse than Alta-Tollhaus, Kirschenwald, Wilhendorf, Globalhaus, Haus Juris....etc, etc, ad infinitum. 

So, it really boils down to whether you care that you may be paying 2, 3, 4x as much than getting the same type of dog from somewhere else, and whether you want to support a dedicated hobby kennel vs. a commercial kennel and broker with "teams" all over the country.

IMO, yes you can get a good female from Fleischereim, but IMO the prices are HIGH compared to other breeders or even purchasing and importing from Germany.


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## sitstay

I am an AA dressage rider here in Idaho and have heard of your horses, and I think I have a general idea of where you are located. 

I would suggest Theishof kennels. Heidi Theis is breeding some of the nicest GSDs out there. I am impressed with their temperaments and brains every time I am in contact with them. The fact that she can live with her retired breeding females living in the house (all together) speaks volumes.

She is located within a days driving distance of you (providing I am correct about your location), and she is breeding the "type" (west German showlines) that you are interested in.

Her website is http://www.theishof.com
Sheilah


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## lrodptl

My adult GSD's mother is from Fleischerheim but the father is Holtkamper. I have met the mother twice and she's a very docile 65-70 pound reddish female. My adult is a very calm,active,somewhat aloof beauty of a Shepherd who is unflappable and low low maintenance other than regular exercise.


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## lcordova

Jessiewessie99 said:


> ummmm...I am not a breeder, and don't plan on breeding, so I don't know what your talking about in ur first sentence. I was suggesting breeders to the OP, since she was looking for breeders.
> 
> So please rephrase what your talking about, because its confusing.


Sometimes I need to write more to explain myself...sorry...)

I understand the OP breeds horses, so I suggest the OP contacts Drachefeld, a reputable breeder who also happens to breed horses. If they share a passion (horses) perhaps they can establish a bond that can allow them easily to find a very good match in a dog. And establish a relationship afterwards.

I also support Alta-Tollhaus and Kirchenwald.
I never tried to write that you breed...) Sorry,

Luis


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## Jessiewessie99

lcordova said:


> Sometimes I need to write more to explain myself...sorry...)
> 
> I understand the OP breeds horses, so I suggest the OP contacts Drachefeld, a reputable breeder who also happens to breed horses. If they share a passion (horses) perhaps they can establish a bond that can allow them easily to find a very good match in a dog. And establish a relationship afterwards.
> 
> I also support Alta-Tollhaus and Kirchenwald.
> I never tried to write that you breed...) Sorry,
> 
> Luis



Its all good. I have no idea why but i prefer working lines to showlines, but Alta-Tollhaus i where I would get a dog from showlines.

I just noticed Alta-Tollhaus is also Alta-Tollhouse.lol or Alta-House of Toll. I am still getting used the meaning of Haus.....lol


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## Liesje

It's Alta-Tollhaus and they are registered "Alta-Tollhaus [-name-]" rather than "[-name-] vom Alta-Tollhaus".


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## coolgsd

*Don't go there*



Hidden Valley Farms said:


> I'm new to this forum but would this kennel be a reputable place to buy from? AND...are these typical prices one would expect to pay for a very well bred puppy? TIA
> 
> www.fleischerheim.com


I bought a pup from one of Bill Fleisher's "breeders". I love her to death but she has had more illnesses and health problems than any dog owner should experience in a lifetime of dogs. I can document every issue and most are related to an autoimmune disease. That is the risk you take with the breed.


Mr Fleischer is a business man and I don't begrudge him making money. In my opinion the breed has a multitude of health problems being perpetuated by dozens and dozens of breeders world wide. So don't think I am being critical of the person here. I'm just saying you run a risk of getting a bad dog from any breeder so do your due diligence wherever you look. 

He lives in Hawaii, as I understand, but has dozens of breedings spread around the country. I can't help wonder how much real control he has over the breeding though. He had advertised a breeding on his website for months and was supposed to let me know about the pups. I inquired about the litter after they were about 6 weeks old and found that they had made a mistake and it wasn't the same female that was advertised. He didn't explain what happened.


I was giving a second chance but that cinched it. I'm sure he has a lot of fine dogs but I don't want to risk going through the expense and stress of having another chronically ill dog so I am going to be very selective.

If you can get references from a past breeding and find out what issues they had, it would be worth the time. Also, watchout out for the fine print on health guarantees. Most muscular skeletal disease will not manifest itself until the dog is a little older - past the limitations of the "guarantee".


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## selzer

I do not know the breeder in question, I looked at the site, and it looks like someone who is a large producer, probably with many outlets raising the puppies as well as inporting, and training. 

Is this why your dog has gotten sick? I do not know. Could be. Could also be some of the over-aggressiveness that we do with vets. Sometimes I think that the mutt that lives on and on in the back yard, is doing so because we do not run him to the vet every time he turns around. Maybe he got a set of puppy shots, maybe several years went by with no shots. Maybe he was treated for fleas when he had them, instead of being subjected to preventives that go right into the blood stream. 

There are a lot of reasons, bad dog food, over-vaccination, early spay/neuter, and environmental reasons your dog may have come down with auto-immune disease. Or it could be in the lines.


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## Mrs.K

Hidden Valley Farms said:


> I am looking for a female who is first a wonderful companion. I want a quiet thoughtful temperament. I have a handicaped daughter and the temperament is extremely important.
> 
> She must be from champion lines on both dam and sire side. She must come from proven health lines far back in her pedigree. She must have correct conformation with substantial bone but not necessarily oversized.
> 
> I know it's a tall order but I really want a VERY good female.
> 
> TIA
> Chris
> www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net



I love Hanoverians. My parents are breeding Hanoverians and Hessians as well as GSD's in Germany.


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## Jessiewessie99

Mrs.K said:


> I love Hanoverians. My parents are breeding Hanoverians and Hessians as well as GSD's in Germany.


I have a horse game where the horse for show jumping is Hanoverians.lol.


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## MKK

** removed by Admin. Breeder bashing is NOT allowed on this board!!**


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## Asche-zu-Staub

that breeder sells pregnant females???? that's a HUGE red flag to me!!


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## Jessiewessie99

I hope the OP found the puppy she wanted.=)


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## katia

My family purchased 3 shepherds from Bill about 5 years ago.

He knew NOTHING about their personalities. These were all young adults. Were NOT socialized at ALL. And their hips ended up not checking out as good.

The oldest, who was 7, ended up dying of a paralyzing cancer last year. Not only that, she has horrible allergies to boot.

No. I would NOT recommend Bill. If you look at the females that Kolenda has, they purchased from him, but their females I do believe came directly from Germany and were not bred by Bill. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Over the long term, his dogs have issues with health.

We had to rehome one because she could NOT be around other dogs. She needed to be a one home dog. The other was EXTREMELY shy. Bill mentioned nothing of this. And placed her with us, a family with a million little kids. She is still shy to this day but is very loving.

And then I mentioned the last died of cancer. 

His dogs are gorgeous, but if you are going to spend the money, go elsewhere.


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## GSDAlphaMom

I do know the breeder in question and RUN as fast as you can! (Fleischerheim)
This is a puppymeal with a paint job. He lives in Calif and has dogs placed with several people around the country. He is in cohoots with a couple of Dallas breeders and has a alot of dogs with them.

I have numerous horror stories of dealings with this man. A friend of mine bought a dog from him that is downright crazy. I've never seen a 'crazy' dog before but this one is. I also know someone that bought a 5 month old from him and it turned out the puppy had never been outside of a barn, consequently had lifetime fear issues.
He also breeds anything, dogs with known temparament issues.

As someone stated above he is a businessman and the dollar is the only reason he is in this business. It has made him a millionaire several times over. He has no scruples, cares nothing about the dogs and only the almighty dollar. He has ripped of so many people. His dogs live full time in kennels, no life, no love, nothing except food and getting bred. All I can say is one day he will meet his maker and get his dues...hopefully all those dogs will get turned loose on him. I'll get off my soapbox now.


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## katia

I forgot to add, last time I checked, the AKC was investigating him for saying puppies were coming from a certain mom and dad when in fact they were NOT.


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## GSDAlphaMom

He also does the bait and switch. Post a picture of a dog and when buyer proceeds to purchase the dog, it's not the same dog. Bill claims it is a mix up but this has happened too many times.

In addition before I knew the truth about him I had called on a dog that he wanted several thousand dollars for. I ended up locating the people that had the litter (for him) and they were shocked he was trying to sell the dog. They said it would never get any bigger (was the size of about a 4/5 month old) as he had some disease (don't recall what) and he would have to be on expensive meds the rest of his life.
She said they would give the dog away to the right home that would care for him.
It's my understanding they cut ties with Bill after that incident.

Noble german shepherds and haus merkel are all part of the same breeder program. Buyer BEWARE!


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## Mrs.K

I am wondering if they have actually ever found a good German Shepherd that fits their needs.


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## Jessiewessie99

GSDAlphaMom said:


> He also does the bait and switch. Post a picture of a dog and when buyer proceeds to purchase the dog, it's not the same dog. Bill claims it is a mix up but this has happened too many times.
> 
> In addition before I knew the truth about him I had called on a dog that he wanted several thousand dollars for. I ended up locating the people that had the litter (for him) and they were shocked he was trying to sell the dog. They said it would never get any bigger (was the size of about a 4/5 month old) as he had some disease (don't recall what) and he would have to be on expensive meds the rest of his life.
> She said they would give the dog away to the right home that would care for him.
> It's my understanding they cut ties with Bill after that incident.
> 
> Noble german shepherds and *haus merkel *are all part of the same breeder program. Buyer BEWARE!


I think some people on this board have dogs from the breeder I bolded and have positive things to say about that breeder.


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## wiaowner

I don't think anyone can argue the quality of dogs that Bill Fleischer has brought to the US. I have never had enough money to purchase one from him. I have noticed on his site lately however that he does not just breed titled females... I believe he used to only use titled females. I also noticed that his page has about 50 puppies and 100 dogs... I don't think it is rocket science either that dogs cannot get the socialization, exercise and individual attention they need. Does Texas have laws about too many dogs or puppy mills. Wiaowner


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## dblack

***Post Removed by Admin***


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## Chris Wild

I am closing this thread. Breeder bashing is not allowed. Further discussion needs to be taken private.


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