# Silver Sable + Black = ?



## APBTLove

Obviously it is a sable litter, but is there any way to find out what shade of sable the pups will be?
The dam is pure black, I don't think the father has any black in his genes, so her recessive colors did not pass to any of the pups. 
The sire is a gorgeous silver sable.

I am new to genetics, but I am trying to learn. 
If I am reading this right, the pups will be aw+a, which sable color is that?
http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf

I can't find what aw+a is. I'm sure it is very simple, but I have NOT had my coffee today, so I'm a bit slow. 
Please humor me


----------



## APBTLove

The one I'm getting is, of course, the itty bitty fluffykins in my avatar.


----------



## Fodder

i don't think that having a black parent will determine the shade of sable the pups will turn out. black is black and sable is sable. feel free to correct me if i'm wrong... but a solid black and a light sable arent going to make black sable pups unless there are specific dogs of that color somewhere in the pedigree.

(similar to the misconception of "my puppy is light b/t because the mother was a wgsd") know what i mean?

as far as guessing the shade of sable - look at the mothers parents, and the shade of sable on the dads side. if there is anything from light sable to medium to dark to black - then you can likely get any one of those shades. if they're mostly light sables - chances are the pups will turn out light.

i'm just speaking on what i've seen/heard... aw+a is greek to me


----------



## Amaruq

The only way the black parent will affect the pups is that some of them may inherit the black recessive and COULD be a darker sable. But sables can change a LOT in the first couple of years and could not change THAT much over all in the end. You have probably seen pictures of my guys on here. I do not have as many pictures of the males as adults but the females vary from Rayne a tan legged sable with moderate black on her back to Ari who had silver legs and much darker than Rayne on her back and more coverage to KC who was VERY dark sable with tan legs and more of a bi-color patterned dark sable.


----------



## Sherush

Jesse's mom was sable and father black and tan, he has a sable line down his back and has been changing constantly for the last 18 months, adding more grey colour into his black saddle.


----------



## WiscTiger

Ask Daryl what he thinks the pup will mature out to. He is the when it comes to color genetics one of the top people in knowledge.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

This is Halo's dam: http://www.rokanhaus.com/hanuta.html

Her sire is solid black. Since Halo is only 6-1/2 months old I have no idea what she'll look like, but right now, she's got a lot of black on her muzzle, some red on and around her ears, and the rest of her coat is coming in very dark, so she may end up darker than mom.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> If I am reading this right, the pups will be aw+a, which sable color is that?
> http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf


The aw+a isn't a color of sable. It is the dog's genotype. He will have on sable gene (aw) and one black gene (a). The dog's phenotype will be sable, as it is the dominant gene.


What color the pups turn out to be depends on what other genes the sire carries. If the dam is black, she is homozygous for black (both of her color genes are black). Black is recessive to every other color. Her recessive genes DID pass onto the pups, but they are not expressed because the color gene inherited from the sire is dominant over the black.

The sable sire can be homozygous sable (both genes for sable), or heterozygous (one sable gene, one gene of any other color).

If he's homozygous sable, all pups will be sable. If he is heterozygous, some pups will be sable, others will be whatever other color gene he carries (black/tan, bi-color or black).


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: SherushJesse's mom was sable and father black and tan, he has a sable line down his back and has been changing constantly for the last 18 months, adding more grey colour into his black saddle.


This stripe is actually referred to as a "bitch stripe" (though it occurs in males too) and is very common in black/tans. It is unrelated to the sable coloring and doesn't have anything to do with his mom being sable.


----------



## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: SherushJesse's mom was sable and father black and tan, he has a sable line down his back and has been changing constantly for the last 18 months, adding more grey colour into his black saddle.


if jesse is a black and tan, then the sable that goes down his back is called a bitch stripe. ("stripe" even tho they can sometimes take over the whole saddle). its totally different from a genetic sable.

my male has a bitch stripe and because his hairs are banded, i personally refer to them as sable hairs (sabling or sable ticking). Xeph pointed out in another recent thread, that the hairs in her b/t males b/stripe are not banded.

OP - sorry for the thread hijack, just wanted to point that out.


----------



## JKlatsky

You should be able to get a feel for the basic shade already. A Silver Sable is definitely less tan at birth, and a red sable will be more red. 

For example...Look at this 6 week old puppy. Behind the ears and on the legs he is very light tan almost white. He looks to be nice and black, although there isn't any penciling on the toes. I would assume he would have good black coverage but with a lighter shade of tan.










In Contrast you can look at his brother on the left in this picture next to him...He is much more tan. 










In my experience also, the sable dogs do tend to darken up somewhat.


----------



## APBTLove

Cuteness overload in those pics.

Thank you guys for walking me through this.
If someone had mentioned GSD color genetics a few years ago they would have gotten a look of incredulity from me









I am waiting for new pictures of Jaeger, he is 4 weeks today









But this is from last week:


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Halo's breeder was kind enough to send me Halo's baby pictures. Here she is at 4 weeks:










At 3 months old she was much lighter:










And then a couple of months later, she looked like this:


----------



## Dee Phillips

That is a BIG change, never seen that amount of change so quick, and is throughing alot of red, would love to see **** and sire. You got to love those mud feet Ha


----------



## APBTLove

Oh my goodness, what an angelbaby... Aww


----------



## GSDTrain

Halo is beautiful, what a change in her coat colors!


----------



## gsdlove212

Gianna is looking a whole lot like Halo did at three months, I am hoping she turns out just as beautiful!


----------



## APBTLove




----------



## BlackJack

Immo's mother was a sable and sire was black coated. Here is is at 5 Months old. 

Dam,
VD Masa Jipo-me - German Shepherd Dog

Sire,

EXCELLENT Kery Kamos Durabo - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Dainerra

Singe's father is a dark sable, his mother is black. He definitely went through some color changes!
3 weeks old








3 months old








4 months








5 months








and now at 1 year old


----------



## Falkosmom

Tybor is my first sable and I researched as much as I could on his coloring. I was told that if a sable pup has black heels and toe penciling, and he keeps those markings, that he carries either a black or a bicolor recessive. I also read that if a dog is a black sable then he carries black recessive.


----------



## Freestep

Falkosmom said:


> Tybor is my first sable and I researched as much as I could on his coloring. I was told that if a sable pup has black heels and toe penciling, and he keeps those markings, that he carries either a black or a bicolor recessive. I also read that if a dog is a black sable then he carries black recessive.


That is what I have heard also. FWIW, my pup is dark sable with pencil toes and tarheels. Her mother is a bicolor and her father a sable.


----------



## Emoore

Freestep said:


> That is what I have heard also. FWIW, my pup is dark sable with pencil toes and tarheels. Her mother is a bicolor and her father a sable.


Interesting. Kopper is a dark sable with pencil toes and tarheels. Both parents were sable but the litter was dark sables and bicolors.


----------



## Freestep

Emoore said:


> Interesting. Kopper is a dark sable with pencil toes and tarheels. Both parents were sable but the litter was dark sables and bicolors.


The parents were sable carrying bicolor.


----------



## Emoore

Freestep said:


> The parents were sable carrying bicolor.


Yup.


----------



## lhczth

And you can also get the tar heels and toe penciling in a sable that carries black.  There are also sables that carry BI that are not black sables. Javir vom Talka Marda carries BI and he is more of a reddish sable in person.


----------

