# What to do after an attack...



## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Hi. I had an 18 mo. old male GSD that attacked my 3 year old yesterday. Did sever damage to his ear and face. He was unprovoked and this is the 3rd time he showed aggression towards my 3 year old. He did not show any aggression towards my 5 year old or myself or husband. I am unsure as to what would cause him to do this. He was very well tempered until we were not around (in a different room) and then he just seemed to have it out for my 3 year old. The first 2 times he showed aggression towards our son we just thought he was playing rough. This time he actually attacked him and literally caused so much damage that he needed to have his ear surgically reattached. We are ask unsure as to what to do with the dog. I signed a release to allow him to be given back to the previous owner (at this point he is still up at animal control). The previous owner is a cop and said that he would do whatever we decided was best (put him down or not). The dog has been around other kids and was raised around this man's grandchildren. Our 3 year old son was not provoking him and was playing in the yard with our 5 year old son. He has never been anything but loving to the dog. So does anyone have any suggestions as to what would of caused him to do this?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

No advice or thoughts on cause. Just wanted to say I'm sorry you're going through this and I wish your son a speedy recovery:hug:


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I'm so sorry this happened to your son, poor little guy.  Glad the dog won't be coming back to your home. 
No idea why it happened but if it was me I'd have the dog put down.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

How awful for your son,

The dog needs to go, return him to his previous owner and let them deal with it since he offered.

Why he would do it? Only the dog knows

But I wouldn't bring the dog back into your house


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OMG "GSD that attacked my 3 year old yesterday. Did sever damage to his ear and face. He was unprovoked and this is the 3rd time he showed aggression towards my 3 year old" 

The THIRD time !!! Sorry can't keep it together so no more said.

Dog? Needle time.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> How awful for your son,
> 
> The dog needs to go, return him to his previous owner and let them deal with it since he offered.
> 
> ...


No the dog will not come back to my house. I called the previous owner last night from the hospital and told him he needed to go get him and remove him from our house and he did and took him right to animal control.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm so sorry. Poor little boy. I wish you son a full recovery.:hug:

Did you actually witness the attack?


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> I'm so sorry. Poor little boy. I wish you son a full recovery.:hug:
> 
> Did you actually witness the attack?


No I did not. I was at school. My husband and 5 year old were there though. The kids were playing together, the dogs were across the yard and my husband stepped inside the house for less then 2 minutes and our 5 year old came running inside screaming that Zeus wouldn't stop bitting our other son's face. My husband went outside and Zeus was snarling and dragging our son by the face and shaking him.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

OMG. How's your 5 yr old ?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm so very sorry that this has happened to your family.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that both boys will need for you to very consciously and carefully socialize them to a very, very stable dog after this, and then other dogs as well. I am afraid that both boys may become terrified of dogs, and that will make them even more likely to have a bad experience with a dog. 

I am really sorry this happened. I hope your little one recovers quickly.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> OMG. How's your 5 yr old ?


He is okay, he is just thinks the dogs are all bad now. We also have an English Bulldog, who was hiding under the porch during all this. So we are just keeping the bulldog outside or in another room for now, until they are a little more relaxed and can start being reintroduced to him without being fearful.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Oh my gosh! This is my worst nightmare about getting a new dog. I am so sorry for your family. 

My only though is either put him down or give him to a rescue that will make sure that he doesnt live with children or be around them.

I hope your son is ok, he and your family will be in my prayers.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> I think that both boys will need for you to very consciously and carefully socialize them to a very, very stable dog after this, and then other dogs as well. I am afraid that both boys may become terrified of dogs, and that will make them even more likely to have a bad experience with a dog.
> 
> I am really sorry this happened. I hope your little one recovers quickly.


Yes, we will be slowly working them back to being around our bulldog and my in-laws dog. Both are very gentle. A friend of mine also has 2 extremely laid back golden retrievers that would be wonderful to rehabilitate them with.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

I really appreciate the words of encouragement and sympathy. The agreement with the previous owner is that after his 10-day quarantine, we will reevaluate with clear heads and make a decision. We do not want to do anything out of anger, and we still do not know or understand why he would attack my boy over all the other kids he has been around. One thing already agreed upon is that if we do chose to not put him to sleep he will not be allowed around kids at all, under any circumstances.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm sorry for this situation and your poor baby 3 year old. I hope a fast and perfect recovery for him.

I'm curious, when did you get this dog? How old was the dog? Do you know much of his history?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Narny said:


> My only though is either put him down or give him to a rescue that will make sure that he doesnt live with children or be around them.


Euthanizing the dog is the best option at this point. However, to send the dog off to rescue is extremely unfair to the dog as well as the rescue and is potentially very dangerous. Many rescues will not accept a dog like this for the potential liability. This would not be a good police dog because police dogs should not be attacking children. That is like an adult dog trying to kill a puppy and that's just "not quite right," to put it too mildly.

It is one thing for a dog to bite a child's hand. It is another to go for the face and also to attack multiple times. Send the dog to rest, and take care of your family. May your kids both recover from all scars, mental and physical.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

i've worked in rescue a very long time. done some pretty unorthodox things in working w/aggression of all kinds. in all this time i've put down only one dog for aggression issues. the dog was a sheltie and the aggression was targeting small children in the face and neck unprovoked. she was fine with everyone and anyone that was on their feet steadily, anyone over the age of 5yrs. but anyone that was not steady or tended to crawl she was an instant terror. there was no breaking it. she was euthanized. 

when this type of predatory behavior creeps up and then becomes normalized, there is no changing it. they are not playing, they are not feeding, they are not bringing anyone anything, or mistaken protection, anything like that...they are on a mission to damage and kill the target. this gsd has an issue w/small creatures that seem weak, unprotected or damaged in some way. 

do not pass on this dog for someone else deal w/the problem. rescue will say he's been rehabbed, and there's no rehabbing this behavior he'd done it 3x it's only a matter of time before he does it again, do him a favor and euthanize him now before he becomes a statistic and creates more bad news for the breed. 

dw~


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I never thought I would be saying this.

Going to another can be based on agreed conditions..... BUT anything can still happen and the dog be in the vicinity of a child. With this dog already proving he is more then ready to attack a child, the safest thing to do is pts. You just don't want to take a chance of passing that on to another owner.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

frpringle said:


> The first 2 times he showed aggression towards our son we just thought he was playing rough. This time he actually attacked him and literally caused so much damage that he needed to have his ear surgically reattached. We are ask unsure as to what to do with the dog.


 You are... Unsure???

I'm so sorry this happened, but oh, my gosh, for the THIRD time!?! Honestly, as much as I love my dog, if she ever attacked a child, it would be the last thing she ever did; she'd not live to do it again, let alone a third time. IMO, the only responsible thing to do is euthanize the dog. I hope your son is okay!


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

chelle said:


> I'm sorry for this situation and your poor baby 3 year old. I hope a fast and perfect recovery for him.
> 
> I'm curious, when did you get this dog? How old was the dog? Do you know much of his history?


We had him just over a week. He was a friend of ours before we got him. A family I have known since kindergarten, and now I'm 28. He was trained to be the previous owners next narcotic dog, however did not have the drive to work. He is 18 mos. and has been around the previous owners grandchildren since birth. His grandchildren are all between less than a year old to 8 years old. We are so baffled because this dog was so obedient and has not shown aggression towards anyone other then my 3 year old.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

DianaM said:


> Euthanizing the dog is the best option at this point. However, to send the dog off to rescue is extremely unfair to the dog as well as the rescue and is potentially very dangerous. Many rescues will not accept a dog like this for the potential liability. This would not be a good police dog because police dogs should not be attacking children. That is like an adult dog trying to kill a puppy and that's just "not quite right," to put it too mildly.
> 
> It is one thing for a dog to bite a child's hand. It is another to go for the face and also to attack multiple times. Send the dog to rest, and take care of your family. May your kids both recover from all scars, mental and physical.


He isn't being sent to a rescue. The previous owner has him and is holding him for a mandatory 10-day quarantine. It has been asked multiple times if we feel that he was playing rough... UH NO! this was way more then just playing rough. It was a targeted aggression towards my son. I'm not questioning IF he should be put down, I definitely feel he should, but I wanted to see if anyone had an idea of what would of been possibly the reason, if any, before I made a decision. If I had been home, the dog would of been dead immediately. I just didn't feel right making the decision out of anger and maybe not seeing something that could of just been out of my scope.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

frpringle said:


> We are so baffled because this dog was so obedient and has not shown aggression towards anyone other then my 3 year old.


All I can guess is that the dog has a screw loose.

It doesn't really matter what the reason for the attack was. It's NEVER okay to attack a child like that--there is no excuse, IMO. He's a dangerous dog with a dangerous temperament. I'm so sorry you had to find out this way.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Dragonwyke said:


> i've worked in rescue a very long time. done some pretty unorthodox things in working w/aggression of all kinds. in all this time i've put down only one dog for aggression issues. the dog was a sheltie and the aggression was targeting small children in the face and neck unprovoked. she was fine with everyone and anyone that was on their feet steadily, anyone over the age of 5yrs. but anyone that was not steady or tended to crawl she was an instant terror. there was no breaking it. she was euthanized.
> 
> when this type of predatory behavior creeps up and then becomes normalized, there is no changing it. they are not playing, they are not feeding, they are not bringing anyone anything, or mistaken protection, anything like that...they are on a mission to damage and kill the target. this gsd has an issue w/small creatures that seem weak, unprotected or damaged in some way.
> 
> ...


This is what I was wondering, if anyone else had ever seen this from another dog. I just couldn't understand why Zeus would of targeted him. He's only going back to the previous owner because we did not want him here. I do not want this to happen to anyone else, but I was unsure only because I didn't know why the dog would of targeted him. After reading the personal accounts of the others on here I am very positive that after the 10-day quarantine he will be put down. The previous owner is being completely supportive and said that he will put him to sleep if thats what we want. I just do not want this happening to anyone else.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Thank GOD you did not allow this dog to be used for stud.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Twyla said:


> I never thought I would be saying this.
> 
> Going to another can be based on agreed conditions..... BUT anything can still happen and the dog be in the vicinity of a child. With this dog already proving he is more then ready to attack a child, the safest thing to do is pts. You just don't want to take a chance of passing that on to another owner.


Agreed. As a mother, going through this and seeing what has happened to my child I could not live with it if something happened and this dog hurt another child or adult for that matter. I just didn't want to put him down straight out of anger, without getting a little leverage on the situation, a clear head and some advice from other GSD owners, etc.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

frpringle said:


> This is what I was wondering, if anyone else had ever seen this from another dog.


oh, it happens. anyone that's had dogs of any kind for a long time, or anyone that's worked in rescue or rehab for a few years has seen it at least once. there are sometimes explanations, but more often than not, there's never a good reason for it. we never know why a dog does what he does. they think and feel different than us and we can never really know. they will always know us better than we know them. 

at only 18mos there's something wrong in his head. if he were an older dog i'd say age, but this young, there's no helping this one. i'm very sorry for all this damage to your family. 

dw~


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## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

It's a horrible situation for you to deal with. Your poor little boy. The previous owner will take care of the dog, you just need to take care of your family. The people on this forum do not give advice to put a dog down lightly. This situation calls for it. I am so sorry...


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Thank GOD you did not allow this dog to be used for stud.


Yes I know! I told the previous owner that I would not stud him until he had all the appropriate tests, etc. done to make sure e took the proper precautions. So it would been at least another 6 months before anything would of been moved forward on. Im very glad that I had looked on here for advice about studding chose to wait... b/c if I had not looked to people on here first, I may have just went ahead and bred him and then there would of been a larger situation at hand.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i hope your son has a speedy recovery. i'm not sure why you didn't
get rid of the dog the first time he was aggressive towards your child.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

frpringle said:


> I really appreciate the words of encouragement and sympathy. The agreement with the previous owner is that after his 10-day quarantine, we will reevaluate with clear heads and make a decision. We do not want to do anything out of anger, and we still do not know or understand why he would attack my boy over all the other kids he has been around. One thing already agreed upon is that if we do chose
> to not put him to sleep he will not be allowed
> around kids at all, under any circumstances.


I'm so sorry for your precious little son, and I'm sorry that the other little one had to witness such terror as well, I agree with Selzer, your little boys will need to be slowly brought back to not having a fear of dogs, bless their little hearts, I hope they can spend time with nice dogs to help them overcome their fear, and hopefully some nice , stable German Shepherds so they know they are not all like that, as for Zeus, he really needs to be euthanized, that type of aggression is unsafe for ANYONE to be exsposed to, their are simply lots of wonderful dogs in shelters through no fault of their own to justify keeping this dog around and risking him killing some other child or adult, just my opinion.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Dragonwyke said:


> oh, it happens. anyone that's had dogs of any kind for a long time, or anyone that's worked in rescue or rehab for a few years has seen it at least once. there are sometimes explanations, but more often than not, there's never a good reason for it. we never know why a dog does what he does. they think and feel different than us and we can never really know. they will always know us better than we know them.
> 
> at only 18mos there's something wrong in his head. if he were an older dog i'd say age, but this young, there's no helping this one. i'm very sorry for all this damage to your family.
> 
> dw~


Our first GSD was from a rescue. He had been beaten and was set on fire. he made a full recovery. he was 4 yrs old when we adopted him and I couldn't of found a more perfect dog for our family. He protected the kids, they could climb all over him and he was just an amazing all around dog, especially for the trauma that he went through. Zeus had such a similar temperament to our Max, and that is what attracted me to him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

frpringle said:


> N Zeus was snarling and dragging our son by the face and shaking him.


That sounds like a prey reaction to me. Regardless of WHY he did this, he caused major injuries to you toddler. The shaking is how they kill prey.

There are very few reasons other than health that I would put a dog down but this right here is an automatic one way trip to the vet.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I am sorry your son is going through this, and your whole family will be dealing with this for a long time to come.
My husbands nephew lost his nose and upper lip to a Dalmation attack... He was 7 at the time and ten plus years later he will not go near another dog, big or small.
This dog has nowhere else to go but to a visit with the needle. 
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> i hope your son has a speedy recovery. i'm not sure why you didn't
> get rid of the dog the first time he was aggressive towards your child.


we didn't b/c the first time it really did look like he was just playing with him. Our 3 yr old was laying on the couch and our 5 yr old was sitting in a recliner and they called the dog into the room, and a few moments later they both started screaming. Well my husband went in and Zeus was trying to pull the blanket off the couch that our 3 yr old was wrapped up in. So we thought he was just playing and accidentally bit him through the blanket. Being a younger dog, we knew he would want to play. I remember one of my dogs growing up liking to chase our hands when we out them under the blanket, so thats what it seemed like to me, he saw something wiggling under the blanket and went for it. The second time, we weren't sure what had happened. My 3 yr old had marks on the back on his neck and shoulder and we asked our 5 yr old and he said the bulldog did it. Our bulldog is just a truck and plows both the boys over and licks them like crazy. So we didn't think anything about that, until I asked the 3 yr old later if it was from the bulldog and he said no it was Zeus. Since we didn't see what happened and he didn't tell us right away, we once again assumed that he was just playing too rough with him.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Thank you again everyone for the advice. I really appreciate it. I am going to talk to him tomorrow and let him know that after the 10-day quarantine and the animal control gives the thumbs up, that he needs to be put down. he said himself that if it had happened to one of his grandkids the dog would of been killed on spot, so I think we both already know what needs to be done.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I also think that the dog should be put down. He is unstable to seriously injure a toddler like that without provocation. 

I know that someone will say, and many have already said there is no excuse. Well I heard of one that I would forgive the dog for, even to the point of reattaching the ear. A friend told me about a dog that bit the 2 year old. They were horrified. The took the dog to the vet and it was on the table. The vet was preparing to inject the dog with the good bye juice. And he happened to look in the dog's ear. The dog had a full-sized pencil all the way down his ear. 

In my opinion, that would probably justify a bite, even to a toddler. 

Nothing like that happened in this case. It does sound like prey drive. Little kids run and scream. Little kids walk funny, sound funny, smell funny. And the dog was not in the home very long. But, really, none of that makes it acceptable for the dog to attack like that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

frpringle said:


> Thank you again everyone for the advice. I really appreciate it. I am going to talk to him tomorrow and let him know that after the 10-day quarantine and the animal control gives the thumbs up, that he needs to be put down. he said himself that if it had happened to one of his grandkids the dog would of been killed on spot, so I think we both already know what needs to be done.


I think that is the best decision you can make, the right decision. This is not about revenge on the dog. It is just an animal, living amongst people. But as someone mentioned before, you really cannot ensure that this dog will never encounter a small child again, and we have to protect children. The vet can do this so that it is quick and painless, and the dog will be freed of his demons. 

I really am sorry that you are going through this.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> I also think that the dog should be put down. He is unstable to seriously injure a toddler like that without provocation.
> 
> I know that someone will say, and many have already said there is no excuse. Well I heard of one that I would forgive the dog for, even to the point of reattaching the ear. A friend told me about a dog that bit the 2 year old. They were horrified. The took the dog to the vet and it was on the table. The vet was preparing to inject the dog with the good bye juice. And he happened to look in the dog's ear. The dog had a full-sized pencil all the way down his ear.
> 
> ...


Yes, if he had just been bitten for picking on the dog, that would of been a completely different case. My 5 year old is the one who has had to be disciplined for being mean to our other dog, and he got nipped in the hand for it. My son is the one who got in trouble, not the dog.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> But as someone mentioned before, you really cannot ensure that this dog will never encounter a small child again, and we have to protect children.


Exactly what I had said to the previous owner. He said he could guarantee it, however I don't see how. I'm just glad that he is on the same page as me about this all. I don't think I could of been in the situation with a better person to deal with.


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

I'm very sorry about what happened to your son and for your older son to have to witness this. I hope your youngest heals from the physical wounds and they both heal emotionally.

I would have only one outcome from this and it would be a visit to the Vet.

I have to say this for educational purposes and not for any kind of blame towards the OP. Please whenever you have a dog NEVER leave them unattended with children, not even for a second, that is all it takes for serious damage to be done.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

i also think it is worth mentioning...although i'm not trying to sound preachy...just saying...that your children and your dogs should never be left unattended together. there have been many horror stories about children being killed by the family dog but nobody was in the room to stop it. i'm so thankful that your son was not in this situation...i just thought that i read a few times through out the thread that these things have happened when the kids have been alone with the dog. to me, it doesn't matter how long they are alone...they shouldn't be alone at all. even if it is the best dog, like the story that was shared about the dog with the pencil in its ear ...you just NEVER know what can happen so prevention is key.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

selzer said:


> the vet was preparing to inject the dog with the good bye juice. And he happened to look in the dog's ear. The dog had a full-sized pencil all the way down his ear.


ಠ_ಠ

I want to reach for my pain pills after reading that.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

BahCan said:


> I have to say this for educational purposes and not for any kind of blame towards the OP. Please whenever you have a dog NEVER leave them unattended with children, not even for a second, that is all it takes for serious damage to be done.


I totally understand this, and I am not trying to blame my husband in any way, but each time it was when I was not home and he was with them. He would leave the room or in this situation, go inside for a minute, and something would happen. I had asked him repeatedly to not leave them alone with the dogs. I know he blames himself for it, and I hate that he feels like it's his fault but I do feel that he will be more mindful that next time I tell him something like this, it's not that I'm being a naggy, bossy wife, I just knew that they should of never been left alone with the dogs in the first place. I think he didn't think about it and thought "Oh well they will be fine for a minute." I told him not to blame himself, but it is a very hard lesson learned.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


Would you really feel ok about taking that risk? This dog seriously attacked and could've killed a 3 year old child. This isn't a minor aggression issue... 

And what if the next owner lives with this dog for years, trusts him, doesn't see any aggression, decides that the story was probably exaggerated and lets him around children again. What if he kills a child next time?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

BahCan said:


> I have to say this for educational purposes and not for any kind of blame towards the OP. Please whenever you have a dog NEVER leave them unattended with children, not even for a second, that is all it takes for serious damage to be done.


Yes. And especially not a dog that's only been in-home for a short time. Never. Unattended. Never. Not a second. Not trying to be preachy either.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

vicky2200 said:


> How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


That means the dog will never get to leave the house for the groomer, vet, pet store, visiting with family, or even be out in the new owners yard, or even go for a walk for fear that it would encounter a child.

I agree that the dog needs to be PTS. Even if a medical condition caused the biting, what the dog did to a 3 year old child is completely unforgivable and the dog can never ever be trusted again. 

In 18 years, I have met 4 dogs that required euthanasia for their aggression issues. Only 4. This is #5.

OP, sorry for what has happened to you and your family. I hope your kids overcome their fear of dogs, but I know it will take a long time for that to happen. 

You are making the right decision for every other child who may come in contact with this dog.

Good luck to your family and I hope your 3 yr old heals quickly.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Chance&Reno said:


> That means the dog will never get to leave the house for the groomer, vet, pet store, visiting with family, or even be out in the new owners yard, or even go for a walk for fear that it would encounter a child.
> 
> I agree that the dog needs to be PTS. Even if a medical condition caused the biting, what the dog did to a 3 year old child is completely unforgivable and the dog can never ever be trusted again.
> 
> In total agreement with this statement...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sashadog said:


> This dog seriously attacked and could've killed a 3 year old child.


Not "could have"....it's WOULD have...

by the grace of whatever god you believe in, the 5 yr old made the life saving decision to get Dad and Dad was able to get to him in time. This dog had the baby by the head and was SHAKING him. They do that to kill their prey. 

This dog needs to be PTS so no family has to endure burying a child and at least this way, he won't die alone in a shelter...the previous owner will take him to the vet and have it done humanely.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

vicky2200 said:


> How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


Please put yourself in my shoes and look at it this way... My 3 year old is only 30 lbs. and his neck measures about the same as my arm in width. He was aggressively shaking and dragging my 3 yr old across our back yard by his face. It would of taken him nothing to snap his neck. This dog's life is NOT more valuable than my son's or any other child or adult that this dog may possible attack out of no where in the future. 

I attached a few pictures of my 3 yr old in the hospital. Please look at them b/c that is why the dog will be put down.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


Homes without kids would be the only choice, then to ensure the dog would never encounter a child, you'd have to be in the middle of nowhere just about. A simple trip to the vet... kid pops out of one of the exam rooms with their dog. A friend comes over unannounced... brings their little 2 yr old with them. The list of possibilities can go on. 

I didn't make the suggestion of pts lightly. I do have a FA DA/sometimes HA dog and am very aware of the different encounters that could happen. A line is crossed when a dog will willingly attack a child.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

vicky2200 said:


> How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


If I had a biter, I could keep my biter in a kennel outside, put a pad lock on the kennel and lock the kennel if I had visitors. Not everyone is set up that way. 

Most of those of us who are childless, have nieces, nephews, neighbor children who may be exposed to our dog at some point. If the owner tells us, he tried to KILL my toddler, so he is UNSAFE around children. We can maybe be super careful with the children we know. And so long as we are in charge of the dog, just maybe the dog will NEVER be in any situation where he encounters a child. We would not take him to pet stores because a toddler can run up to him and throw its arms around the doggy. And at the vet (the only place he would go) he would wear a vet until he is in the exam room, just in case someone brings their kid into the waiting room.

But how can we guaranty that the new owner's sister will not bring her kid to care for the dog when the new owner is in the hospital. How can we be certain that the new owner will not lose his job and drop the dog in a shelter, or rescue not telling about the bite because it would mean the dog would probably be put down. 

It does not get any easier to put down a dog when you have lived with them for months, and then for years. But if the childless old couple, becomes a childless widow/widower who can no longer manage the dog, will that person be then able to put the dog down when they cannot find a home they can trust to keep such a dog away from children.

This family is lucky their child is alive and will recover. The next toddler this dog runs into may not be so lucky. Every bite our breed is charged with is bad for all of us that own and love the breed. Sometimes I feel we are only a few precarious steps away from BSL, and already we pay for owning this breed by being limited in where we can rent and who we can buy insurance from. No dog should be charged with a bite if it was provoked or if it was not a bite, but dogs that are charged with a bite, should never be charged with another. There are way too many GSDs out there to let one GSD rack up multiple bites, multiple injuries.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

frpringle said:


> Please put yourself in my shoes and look at it this way... My 3 year old is only 30 lbs. and his neck measures about the same as my arm in width. He was aggressively shaking and dragging my 3 yr old across our back yard by his face. It would of taken him nothing to snap his neck. This dog's life is NOT more valuable than my son's or any other child or adult that this dog may possible attack out of no where in the future.
> 
> I attached a few pictures of my 3 yr old in the hospital. Please look at them b/c that is why the dog will be put down.


Just heartbreaking. Yes, PTS is the right decision. Don't doubt it for a second. Nanosecond. No doubt.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It's very sad that your little boy was attacked. It is made worse that no one knows what happened prior to the bite, and this was a dog that was raised with children. The outcome would likely be the same in terms of the consequence to the dog, but this information might be helpful in prevention of future bites. 

I do find it worrisome that the 5 year old has been bitten as well for pushing it with another dog. 

I also don't think that climbing all over dogs is a good thing for children to learn to do as not all dogs find that acceptable, and better to just not do it than to be at someone else's house and learn not to do it the hard way. I am sure this is a message that will be coming through loud and clear now. 

I would be looking at getting some materials to review on appropriate dog-child interaction and turn the boys into the best canine good citizens ever. 

For right now, it's closing the barn door after the horses get out, but if you can prevent this from ever happening again to your children, or their friends, please do consider really working on this. 

Young, unsupervised children most at risk for dog bites, study shows; Dogs often target a child's face and eyes

Safety Around Dogs // Dog Bite Prevention Program - Dog Bite Statistics

Why do dogs bite children? | Dog Star Daily

Dog Bite Prevention

Bite Prevention Tips for Parents, Kids and Dog Owners

ASPCA | Dog Bite Prevention

There's tons more. Very sad. Very scary.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blame your husband. Go ahead. Vent, you deserve to say everything you think about him leaving the dogs and the kids in the yard. I probably would not say it to him, but that feeling has to be there. Your boy looks like he has serious bruising on his face and puncture wounds, and all. My nieces are 5, 5, 2 and 1. I cannot imagine how awful it would be to have one of them be attacked like that.

Even my pencil down the ear story, the dog might nip or bite and then retreat if the kid is actively hurting him and stops when nipped or bitten. This was not even like that. 

Being mad at the dog really doesn't do anything good. Just put the dog down, he isn't right. There are many, many GSD in shelters and pounds that rescues cannot save, just too many, perfectly fine dogs, put down because of no home, no space. Whoever might take this dog, can take one of those. This dog has shown us what he will do to a small child. This dog needs to be euthanized.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> How can you not ensure that the dog will never encounter a small child again? If it were me, I would have the previous owner find a home without children for the dog. It's really easy to make sure your dog is away from children if you don't have children. I would never pts a dog due to aggression issues. There is always another option.


I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post something similar to this.....4 pages....not too bad but then you did post before the pictures were posted of this poor little boy so maybe you may think differently now.

If this dog was mine and did this to my 3 year old it would already be dead......I would have shot it myself.

To the OP......you do not have to justify to anyone why you feel the way you do. Any sensible person can see that this dog is a danger and needs to be PTS. Once the dog is PTS give it no more thought....you will have done exactly the right thing......put all your energy into helping your little boy recover and *none* into worrying about if you did the right thing by this dog.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

frpringle said:


> Please put yourself in my shoes


i don't question your judgement for a moment. after looking at those pix, were i in your shoes i wouldn't've called anyone. i'd've grabbed the closest deadly item and done it myself, with my own hands. 

no, someone said there are too many other gsd's out there for there to be allowed this behavior from one gsd. these sorts of behaviors cannot be allowed to proliferate. having an aggressive or assertive dog is one thing, having an attacking or unpredictably biting dog is completely different. pitbulls are the target now, but it's one short step till it's our dogs on the BSL listings. 

dw~


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I like Dr. Dunbar's Bite Assessment scale. Dr. Dunbar is a veterinarian AND a behaviorist, so is looking at both sides of the dog. Anyway he has stated over and over that he will not work with any dog's who has bitten at a level 4 or higher since he has never seen a dog with that level of bite inhibition be truly rehabilitated. I'm not sure what he would consider truly rehabilitated to be honest, but if he won't go there (and I've seen numerous case studies he'd published of aggression rehab) then I'm pretty sure it's not something anyone should go about.
Here's the scale-

Ian Dunbar's Bite Assessment Scale
Level 1- Dog growls, lunges, snarls-no teeth touch skin. Mostly intimidation behavior.

Level 2- Teeth touch skin but no puncture. May have red mark/minor bruise from dog’s head or snout, may have minor scratches from paws/nails. Minor surface abrasions acceptable.

Level 3- Punctures ½ the length of a canine tooth, one to four holes, single bite. No tearing or slashes. Victim not shaken side to side. Bruising.

Level 4- One to four holes from a single bite, one hole deeper than ½ the length of a canine tooth, typically contact/punctures from more than canines only. Black bruising, tears and/or slashing wounds. *Dog clamped down and shook or slashed victim*.

Level 5- Multiple bites at Level 4 or above. A concerted, repeated attack.

Level 6- Any bite resulting in death of a human.


We have been training professionally for 20 years and the one thing we stress to all clients is that NO dog should be left with any child for any amount of time EVER. My own dogs were never left in a room with my children, even if I stepped into the bathroom, the child went with me or the dog was crated. I guess I spent too many years in vet hospitals and dealt with too many heartbroken families with dogs of all shapes, sizes and temperaments and saw that ANY dog would bite and when all was said and done, the why didn't matter. Dogs can have misunderstandings just like people, they can interpret things in a way we don't comprehend and that's all it takes. Doesn't matter if the child wasn't doing anything at all concerning the dog. 

In the past 20 years we have only ever advised 2 people to put a dog to sleep, one had attacked another dog, (long, scary attack) and the other had bitten a child in a manner similar to what happened to your son. 
Go through the 10 day quarantine if that is what is required and then have the previous owner put him to sleep.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

bocron said:


> I like Dr. Dunbar's Bite Assessment scale. Dr. Dunbar is a veterinarian AND a behaviorist, so is looking at both sides of the dog. Anyway he has stated over and over that he will not work with any dog's who has bitten at a level 4 or higher since he has never seen a dog with that level of bite inhibition be truly rehabilitated. I'm not sure what he would consider truly rehabilitated to be honest, but if he won't go there (and I've seen numerous case studies he'd published of aggression rehab) then I'm pretty sure it's not something anyone should go about.
> Here's the scale-
> 
> Ian Dunbar's Bite Assessment Scale
> ...


this is pretty good! i like that bite inhibition scale, that's pretty accurate too, when i compare it to what i've been working with the past 25yrs. and like you, in the last 25yrs, there's only been 1 time i've had to put down a dog as being beyond rehabilitation. i think i'm gonna have to look up this Dr. Dunbar. 

dw~ 

sorry to detract from the thread.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

there is no other option.
i'm sorry about your son. 
the dog MUST be put down. period.

i'd also like to point you to a little something, just in case you ever decide to get another dog.
any dog that is new to you, should be crated for a MINIMUM of 2 weeks.
being that you have children, i'd suggest longer. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ng-not-strangle-my-moms-bf-2.html#post2432175

not only is this for your family's safety, but for the dogs as well.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

Bismarck said:


> there is no other option.
> 
> 
> 
> any dog that is new to you, should be crated for a MINIMUM of 2 weeks.


we have a crate for him, and he was supposed to either be in it or outside in the backyard unless we were in the room with him. When I was home he was always crated when I was not able to put him outside or be in the room with him to monitor. This once again goes to my husband not wanting to listen to his "naggy wife". Like I said, I don't blame him for this, but I do know this is a very hard lesson that he had to learn from not heeding my warnings.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am so sorry for your child, I wish him a speedy and full recovery.

What I suspect happened is prey (over)drive kicking in. He was probably not in the home long enough to interpret the younger child as a pack member as opposed to prey. You don't really have a choice with this dog.

In many years of rescue I had one rescue who was not good with children. It was very obvious that children (and adults) have abused him badly before he came to me. As he recovered and regained physical strength, he showed fear aggression and I was never able to make him reliable around new people. He would het very upset aand bark at children from distance even. I managed to keep him safe, he never left the house without a muzzle. He was wonderful with the people he knew. In obedience class we were doing exercises with a stick and he tried to bite the stick even with a muzzle. it was obvious that he was beaten with the sick and with a belt. I never managed to fully rehabilitate him but he never hurt anybody.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

frpringle said:


> we have a crate for him, and he was supposed to either be in it or outside in the backyard unless we were in the room with him. When I was home he was always crated when I was not able to put him outside or be in the room with him to monitor. This once again goes to my husband not wanting to listen to his "naggy wife". Like I said, I don't blame him for this, but I do know this is a very hard lesson that he had to learn from not heeding my warnings.


People don't listen. They think that they can do and know better. 

Even in very simple, little things, we can say "if you do this to that dog, x will happen" and it's like saying don't touch the stove...fortunately there are people who do learn without having to have a bad experience. For those who cannot...not good.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am always surprised when parents allow their children to climb on the dog, squeeze the dog, hug the dog's head. Even strange dogs, a disaster waiting to happen.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

RebelGSD said:


> I am always surprised when parents allow their children to climb on the dog, squeeze the dog, hug the dog's head. Even strange dogs, a disaster waiting to happen.


They were not allowed to climb on Zeus. Yes I had allowed them to climb on and roll around with our previous dog, but we had had him for several years. This has also been a learning experience for myself as well, they will never be allowed to be alone with a dog in the future. I have learned that an animal is an animal.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

frpringle said:


> Hi. I had an 18 mo. old male GSD that attacked my 3 year old yesterday. Did sever damage to his ear and face. He was unprovoked and this is the 3rd time he showed aggression towards my 3 year old. He did not show any aggression towards my 5 year old or myself or husband. I am unsure as to what would cause him to do this. He was very well tempered until we were not around (in a different room) and then he just seemed to have it out for my 3 year old. The first 2 times he showed aggression towards our son we just thought he was playing rough. This time he actually attacked him and literally caused so much damage that he needed to have his ear surgically reattached. We are ask unsure as to what to do with the dog. I signed a release to allow him to be given back to the previous owner (at this point he is still up at animal control). The previous owner is a cop and said that he would do whatever we decided was best (put him down or not). The dog has been around other kids and was raised around this man's grandchildren. Our 3 year old son was not provoking him and was playing in the yard with our 5 year old son. He has never been anything but loving to the dog. So does anyone have any suggestions as to what would of caused him to do this?


Given those circumstances - 3 strikes and he is OUT. 

Hard to do but no way would I expose other people to the dog.

(Baring any medical correctable cause) - but it doesn't sound like that is the case.

How long have you had him? Maybe guarding something?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

frpringle said:


> No I did not. I was at school. My husband and 5 year old were there though. The kids were playing together, the dogs were across the yard and my husband stepped inside the house for less then 2 minutes and our 5 year old came running inside screaming that Zeus wouldn't stop bitting our other son's face. My husband went outside and Zeus was snarling and dragging our son by the face and shaking him.


 
Good #@# - that dog would have been gone right then!

How terrible, esp. for your other son!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

frpringle said:


> Please put yourself in my shoes and look at it this way... My 3 year old is only 30 lbs. and his neck measures about the same as my arm in width. He was aggressively shaking and dragging my 3 yr old across our back yard by his face. It would of taken him nothing to snap his neck. This dog's life is NOT more valuable than my son's or any other child or adult that this dog may possible attack out of no where in the future.
> 
> I attached a few pictures of my 3 yr old in the hospital. Please look at them b/c that is why the dog will be put down.



Oh My God, that is horrific, I want to just hug that little boy, and I'm not really a kid person, I know one thing, if I had been there and that was my child, there wouldn't even be a debate, the dog would already be dead, that is simply unforgivable.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BahCan said:


> I'm very sorry about what happened to your son and for your older son to have to witness this. I hope your youngest heals from the physical wounds and they both heal emotionally.
> 
> I would have only one outcome from this and it would be a visit to the Vet.
> 
> I have to say this for educational purposes and not for any kind of blame towards the OP. Please whenever you have a dog NEVER leave them unattended with children, not even for a second, that is all it takes for serious damage to be done.


Certainly not with a new dog, but I would not hesitate to leave any of our past dogs alone with our child - as long as the kid was old enough to be left alone by themselves anyway. I wouldn't have a dog that i did not consider completely trustworthy with any family member!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

frpringle said:


> Please put yourself in my shoes and look at it this way... My 3 year old is only 30 lbs. and his neck measures about the same as my arm in width. He was aggressively shaking and dragging my 3 yr old across our back yard by his face. It would of taken him nothing to snap his neck. This dog's life is NOT more valuable than my son's or any other child or adult that this dog may possible attack out of no where in the future.
> 
> I attached a few pictures of my 3 yr old in the hospital. Please look at them b/c that is why the dog will be put down.


 
*No defense needed - the dog must be pts!*


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

frpringle said:


> Please put yourself in my shoes and look at it this way... My 3 year old is only 30 lbs. and his neck measures about the same as my arm in width. He was aggressively shaking and dragging my 3 yr old across our back yard by his face. It would of taken him nothing to snap his neck. This dog's life is NOT more valuable than my son's or any other child or adult that this dog may possible attack out of no where in the future.
> 
> I attached a few pictures of my 3 yr old in the hospital. Please look at them b/c that is why the dog will be put down.


 
thats horrific! I am so sorry you and your family are in this situation. I havent read the whole thread but when i saw the pictures i needed to comment. As a mother myself, if either of my dogs did anything even close to what Zeus has done, he would not have made it out of my yard alive honestly. I love my dogs but my children are my everything. My son turns 3 come June. PLEASE make sure that dog is euthanized. There is something seriously wrong in his head and the potential for harm to someone else is simply way too hight for any other options.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> I am always surprised when parents allow their children to climb on the dog, squeeze the dog, hug the dog's head. Even strange dogs, a disaster waiting to happen.


Strange dogs - absolutely! 

But our family including child should be able to do anything short of causing real pain without any aggressive reaction (at least i think so and it has always been the case even with our ScH trained dogs).


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Strange dogs - absolutely!
> 
> But our family including child should be able to do anything short of causing real pain without any aggressive reaction (at least i think so and it has always been the case even with our ScH trained dogs).


 
I agree!!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't think even the family child should be riding on the dog. All children should treat the animal with respect.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I too want to add my sympathies. And a bit of hope for you: your demeanor, even _right now_, is extremely important in how your children handle this. As hard and unthinkable as it may seem, calmness is your best bet. Try not to react to the anxiety of your children--I'm definitely not saying to disregard their feelings and emotions, but I would listen without qualifying. To your oldest, you may be able to explain more, but less right now is your friend. Acknowledge their fear but don't encourage it, or inadvertently build on it. As time passes, and healing begins, you can explain that the majority of dogs would never have acted that way. 

My best and most sincere thoughts are with you and your boys and husband. 

On a side note, the links Jean (I think) posted are some I use in my bite inhibition class I teach at our local grade schools, grades 1-5. Some years I do several sessions, lately it's been one. Rocket has done one, my previous were with my Labrador and cats. Hopefully to prevent this from happening to older children, who either do not have their own dogs, or who visit people that have dogs that may not be socialized or trained, or who's parents do not teach appropriate behavior. 

***** Not a commentary on the OP--in relation to some posts about children jumping and playing on dogs ***** 
Most dog bites either happen at home or at _a friend/relative's house. _


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

frpringle said:


> We had him just over a week. He was a friend of ours before we got him. A family I have known since kindergarten, and now I'm 28. He was trained to be the previous owners next narcotic dog, however did not have the drive to work. He is 18 mos. and has been around the previous owners grandchildren since birth. His grandchildren are all between less than a year old to 8 years old. We are so baffled because this dog was so obedient and has not shown aggression towards anyone other then my 3 year old.



This is the dog who was supposed to be studded out, right??
You need to take control of the situation or make sure the previous owner dog, and put that dog down before he's able to be bred to anything!

And never-ever-ever leave a child and a dog together unattended. Never.
Your son is lucky to be alive. 
Dog - 3rd time is a strike out. 
Ridiculous


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

sparra said:


> If this dog was mine and did this to my 3 year old it would already be dead......I would have shot it myself.



This is how I feel - bypass the pound all together. Send the brain off for rabies testing or whatever, but that dog would not live one moment more.

Family Paws Dog and Baby Support To the OP you have to read this - please do not get any more dogs until your kids are older, unless you can teach them to not pull on, climb on, or hug/kiss the dogs in your home.

This is important for any family with dogs, no matter what the breed.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

For families of dog bite victims, I suggest this book to read. It really does help to shed some light on the causes and can help you heal.

Amazon.com: Jelly Bean versus Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde (9780960129256): C. W. Meisterfeld, Darlene Perez, Richard Flinn: Books


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Strange dogs - absolutely!
> 
> But our family including child should be able to do anything short of causing real pain without any aggressive reaction (at least i think so and it has always been the case even with our ScH trained dogs).


Nonetheless children should be taught how to treat dogs. They do not climb on them, grab their heads, pull or poke their ears, drag them by their collars, pull their fur. My children from the day they could sit up were taught how to behave around dogs. No danger of them ever treating someone else's dog in a manner they may not like. 

Sue


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Frpringle, 

I didn't say anything earlier, but I understand exactly what you're going through. You can read my story - it's under this section of the forum - entitled "Serious unprovoked aggression".

Our rescued dog attacked our granddaughter and our daughter. But we do still have him - because he does have a medical condition. 

Are we doing the right thing? - No, I don't think we are. But my OH will not even consider having him pts. 

The others are here are correct in that you can never be sure what the future holds. Take us for example. Jake our dog is lovely - but there is no doubting he has a problem. He is on medication and to be honest we are having no problems with him - but we can't be sure we never will. He is with me or/and the OH almost 99% of the time. He has a really good quality of life. The only time he isn't with us, is if we have visitors, he is then locked in another room. 

But what if I were to die tomorrow would my OH keep him ? - I can more or less guarantee that he would. But what if he were ill or died -what then? I just hope both of us outlive Jake - we should, but you can't be sure of anything.

My thoughts are with all of you. 

Sue


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I am so very sorry for all your family members this has happend  I hope your little one makes a fully recovery and both boys recovery emotionally too :hugs:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

just wanted to say a couple things, 

First I think this is absolutely horrible what happened to the 3 year old, horrible I feel bad for both kids.

Something I wonder, and I am in no way excusing what this dog did.

THe dog had previously lived with small children without incident.
The times that these attacks occurred were when there was no adult present.
He never bothered the 5 year old?
That is just 'weird' to me. 

I am in no way questioning what the dog did which was inexcusable but it just seems weird to me , why would he be ok when adults were present but not when they were out of the picture?

I"m glad your not taking him back, I hope your kids will recover physically and mentally. 

Do I think the dog should be shot on the spot? I will honestly say, I'm not sure.
I do know I would never put him in a situation /home with kids again. But there alot of dogs out there that do not like kids/toddlers and are managed if you know what your dealing with.


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## cowgirl (Sep 25, 2011)

Could be jealously.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Don't put human emotions on a dog. He is not jealous. What he might be is attacking the smallest to move "up the ladder" so to speak.
Wouldn't matter one bit why he did it. The dog would be dead already... Next time the same dog in another home could get a child by the throat and kill the child
I remember reading the story of the guy from"AxMen" who had two Rotts, had them for awhile. The one Rott grabbed his small daughter and killed her outright. They had had aggression issues with this same dog before,but because of general consenses of friends and trainers, they kept the dog and "worked" with him. Bet they wish they had destroyed the dog after the first aggressive issue.
It just scares me to read all these rescue dogs with aggression issues and everyone making excuses for them. Most likely the rescues are not informed when they take the dog in that it has already bitten before and that is the real reason why it is given to rescue, not because they have to move or whatever.Heck, the "humane society" where I live just gives a questionaire to fill out, and when it asks if there is agression, of course everyone says no. Then they adopt the dog out to the next unsuspecting family and someone else gets bit. Until somebody has the guts to destroy the animal, the cycle will continue.
I never recommend adopting an adult dog to a home with children, just to many "factors" can set off an adult dog, whether they have come from home with kids or not.Pretty easy to say" dog is great with kids,lives with 4 of them, yadda yadda". Course what the owner doesn't say is"the dog is chained or kenneled in the yard and never free around the kids or other dogs,or cats, etc.
The humane society here had two adult GSD's come in.My friend does a GSD rescue and had me call and say she would take both of them. She will keep the dogs, take them through training classes and test them, keeping them as long as necessary before she adopts them out. (she has been showing/training all breeds/runs boarding kennel for 25+ years)Anyway, called and they had already adopted the female out within one day to out of state folks. No testing was done, nothing except vet care.My friend got the male and when they checked on the female,found she had already killed the family cat. When asked if the HS had done any testing about cats,kids, etc, the answer was"oh no,we did read the paperwork".Hopefully the people will return the female and she will be turned over to my friend to be adopted out correctly.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

This dog is not a rescue. 

I believe you need to hold a dog after a bite for 10 days, even with vaccinations. Dogs must also be euthanized correctly in order to be submitted for rabies testing, so shooting a dog upon incident would probably not be a good recommendation (in case anyone reading this thread would actually think it was).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shooting the dog is never the right answer unless you are in immediate danger. The kindest thing that can be done for this dog, and obviously the OP wants to do right by her family and the dog, is to take him to the vet after the 10 days is up and humanely euthanize him.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree, shooting would be the last resort for sure, to send off the brain it needs to be mostly whole if possible and put on ice immediately,then sent to the lab for testing. We did send a skunk that had bit a puppy,they shot it in the head with a 22,(the skunk,not the dog) we were able to send what was left of the skunks head and it did not have rabies, thank goodness.
I know this dog was not a rescue, but I guess the same would apply as to bringing an adult dog into a home with young kids even from a friend..


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Do I think the dog should be shot on the spot? I will honestly say, I'm not sure.
> I do know I would never put him in a situation /home with kids again.


Shooting the dog, if done correctly, won't destroy so much brain tissue there would be none left for testing. 
And although not for the squeamish, almost all the cases where I've been present and a dog was shot (I've never done it myself, but been on scene when officers made the decision to lethally shoot a dog) the dog was dead immediately after the shot, so it's not inhumane - if done correctly. 

The main thing being, he wouldn't have a chance to attack again. If he's at the shelter, someone's going to feel sorry for it, nevermind he almost killed a child, and the dog won't be put to sleep. Just a hunch here, but I've seen plenty of issues where dogs even killed humans and people felt sorry for it and want to give it another chance.

Not to mention, this dog has bitches lined up for breeding


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

she said she wasn't going to breed him.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I remember that, yes but the breeder is the one who had the breedings lined up. The breeder may not euthanize the dog (they know the dog is there @ the shelter).


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

OMG. I just realized this is the same person who got this dog, no papers or anything and wanted to"stud him out"... I would be wondering why a cop gave a dog like this to someone with young children, maybe he washed out of a program..
Put this dog down, do not let anyone decide he needs a second chance or training or behaviouist , he needs to be dead.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I find it troublesome to hear words like unforgiveable, moving up the ladder, wouldn't make it out of the yard if he did that to my kid. It is a dog, not a human. Should it be put down? Definitely. But not because it is a bad dog. It is not a bad dog. It is a dog. And the dog has a screw loose. Not bad. So it is a domestic animal that is unsafe with humans. In the wild this dog would have probably been killed by its own. Because it has a screw loose. It isn't right. Not that it is bad. 

They say that dogs have the emotional spectrum of a very small child. I really don't think so. I think they feel pain, grief, fear, jealousy, devotion, joy, excitement, contentedness and others I am forgetting, but they are a canine version of what humans feel -- deeper, rawer, stronger, perhaps. But judging a dog on expectations of adult emotions blows my mind. 

It is a domestic animal that is not working out in a domestic situation. It is definitely not right. It has a physical, in this case mental problem. This is not about the dog being responsible, or needing to be forgiven. It has no clue that he was on strike three. A bite like that does not need to have more than one strike. 

I feel for this dog. I really do. He is probably weirded out in a small kennel at an animal control facility, where people are pushing food at him, but he does not know any of them and they do not care about him. lt would probably have been better if the dog was shot right off. But it was not, and we should test for rabies, etc. And yes a shot done right is humane. The dog is not sitting there thinking, "Gee, I should not have tried to kill the master's son." This dog's temperament - genes/physical health /environment-history conditioned him to attack that child in that moment. It is not about being bad, it is an animal with a group of characteristics that is just not safe to keep alive. 

As I said, that for the dog, the best thing would to have been shot right off. Just not as some sort of retaliation to what the dog did to the boy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> As I said, that for the dog, the best thing would to have been shot right off. Just not as some sort of retaliation to what the dog did to the boy.


No not as retaliation. More like "this do is incredibly broken and we're ending the problem here and now".


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Where was the post about breeding!?? I didn't see any in this thread. I'm confused.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...9560-question-about-studding.html#post2440032


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> This dog is not a rescue.
> 
> I believe you need to hold a dog after a bite for 10 days, even with vaccinations. Dogs must also be euthanized correctly in order to be submitted for rabies testing, so shooting a dog upon incident would probably not be a good recommendation (in case anyone reading this thread would actually think it was).


That is correct. Years ago my parents GSD bit the mail person. Barely broke the skin, did not even bleed. The dog was up to date on all vacs, including rabies. They were required to send her for 10 days for quarentine (sp). But they could do it at the vet clinic. 

Their choice was the 10 days, or PTS.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Excellent post, Sue.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

wyominggrandma said:


> OMG. I just realized this is the same person who got this dog, no papers or anything and wanted to"stud him out"... I would be wondering why a cop gave a dog like this to someone with young children, maybe he washed out of a program..
> Put this dog down, do not let anyone decide he needs a second chance or training or behaviouist , he needs to be dead.


It was presented to me to stud him and I thought "oh that would be good." then common sense kicked in that this dog had nothing incredible about him that stood out to me other than he was a good looking dog. So that's why I came on here to get some advice because although at first studding him seemed like a good idea, at second look it didn't make sense to me why he was going to be studded. He was already set up to stud before I got him but after I had got a lot of information on here I told the previous owner he would not stud until I had his hips ofa approved and the other necessary health checks done. So he could of been studded for at least 6 more months if not longer. He wasn't going to be studded unless it was done correctly.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I remember that, yes but the breeder is the one who had the breedings lined up. The breeder may not euthanize the dog (they know the dog is there @ the shelter).


The previous owner has already picked him up and he is being held in quarantine for the 10 days. The last day he will call me and ask me what I want to do. He had already said he would of shot the dog on spot and has no issue with ha ung the dog put down. I was not home and my husband was too busy calming our children and calling 911 to worry about dealing with the dog in that moment, or else the dog would of been killed on spot. Plus we do not own a gun. I didn't want to make a decision out of anger, which is why the previous owner took him to animal control instead of just shooting him. He is now back in a familiar environment so he isnt stuffed in a shelter anywhere. After all the advice I have received on here, the dog will be PTS after the 10 days are up. There is no way I could accept anyone else getting hurt.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Good for you frpringle. You have made a choice to end the dogs life before he ends a humans life. You son is so lucky to be alive, it just makes me shudder.
Selzer, I never said the dog was "bad". I said he needed to be dead. Someone commented maybe the dog was jealous, I said maybe he went after the smallest of his family as an upward movement in the "pack" and not to put human emotions on a dog.

I did not blame the OP or even whomever bred the dog,I just said this was an issue that needed to be dealt with by euthanizing, not retraining, giving to a rescue to find a home, behaviour training, etc. Somewhere, whether genetic or not, this dog became unsafe and dangerous.
I hope your injured son is doing well and healing, I hope the mental scars from this attack is able to slowly go away for both your sons and your husband and you.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

This wasn't simply a bite. It was a prolonged & ferocious attack. As another poster said, Zeus was going to kill your son.Thankfully, your 5 yr old got help which arrived in time to save your boy. 

PTS is really the only sensible choice in this situation. Zeus is just too dangerous to place responsibly. I'm sorry your family is going through all of this. I'm glad the previous owner is supportive.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> OMG "GSD that attacked my 3 year old yesterday. Did sever damage to his ear and face. He was unprovoked and this is the 3rd time he showed aggression towards my 3 year old"
> 
> The THIRD time !!! Sorry can't keep it together so no more said.
> 
> Dog? Needle time.



Ditto!

PTS!


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

frpringle said:


> So he could of been studded for at least 6 more months if not longer. He wasn't going to be studded unless it was done correctly.




* couldnt * of been bred is what I meant to type.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wyominggrandma said:


> Don't put human emotions on a dog. He is not jealous. What he might be is attacking the smallest to move "up the ladder" so to speak.


I did think it was kind of ironic that you admonished someone for putting human emotions on a dog and then put human thinking on the dog -- moving up the ladder. 

But whatever. I highly doubt this dog thought anything to do with dominance/pack order. I think his instincts drove him to attack the small strange thing. I know he was around his previous owner's grandchildren, but maybe they were beyond this younger child's age. And it is also possible that the reason they gave up Zeus was because of some questionable actions around the grandchildren. But we will never know that answer. 

And while I know dogs have something like jealousy, this dog wasn't attached to this family long enough for this to be a problem. If I remember correctly, the dog was only there for a week. And, jealousy does not cause a dog to attack something three days later or 2 hours later. Usually jealous issues cause bitch fights when the owner is present, and paying attention to one of the bitches. 

But I agree that it does not really matter why the dog acted how it did.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I didn't say the dog was jealous... Okay,sorry Selzer I said it wrong. When I said"moving up the ladder" I meant climbing higher in the pack,I assume that is not a human emotion, most humans don't fight to move up higher in the pack.
As usual, I didn't word it correctly. Excuse me


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wyominggrandma said:


> I didn't say the dog was jealous... Okay,sorry Selzer I said it wrong. When I said"moving up the ladder" I meant climbing higher in the pack,I assume that is not a human emotion, most humans don't fight to move up higher in the pack.
> As usual, I didn't word it correctly. Excuse me


Oh, I don't know, we have something like the pecking order. And, it seems that it could be we are so obsessed with pack order because we are driven by it in many ways. Whose the boss? Who is second in command? Who is low-man on the totem pole? 

I know you did not say the dog was jealous you dismissed someone else for putting the human emotion on the dog who suggested that might be it. I don't really think it was jealousy, though I think dogs do sometimes share the green monster emotion with us -- a canine version. I do not think that in a week this dog was settled into his surroundings enough to be seriously jealous. But none of us can crawl up into this dog's brain to figure out why he did this. I doubt it had anything to do with pack order. My guess is prey drive. 

Pack order usually isn't a killing thing, except in adult bitches. This dog was trying to kill. How awful for a child to be in a sustained attacked like that.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

I couldn't imagine being in your shoes right now...what an awful time for your family. My heart goes out to your adorable son, and I hope he and his brother heal well...it may take awhile for them to like dogs again, if ever.

Yes, needle time. 

NO EXCUSES. I mean really? Come on. Can anyone really look at those hospital pics and actually think the dog that did that deserves to stay in our society? Our society that is full of children? Didn't think so. 

I agree this is pretty prey driven, but if you do any digging at all on the GSD these dogs have a breed foundation of being wonderful with children and even small animals. They were and still should be prized for a clear, sound mind and a healthy switch. No excuses.

OP, again...I know this must be a terrible time for you. You must be feeling very angry and hurt, and I really hope you and your family heal well.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

My friend's mom is a dispatcher for the Mesa Police Dept. 
She got a horrific call from the wife of an officer she was/is very close to. The wife was home alone and she left their 2 day old baby in the living room with their 2 large dogs while she went in th kitchen for just a moment. Their chow chow bit the 2 day old baby's head OFF - in just a matter of seconds.

I would never trust any large dog around a small child, no matter how well I knew the dog. 

Would absolutely put this dog to sleep, without a second thought. 
Wishing the best for your family.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Hope your son and whole family is doing better this morning. How are his wounds healing? Knowing how young he is,won't be too long before he is back to his happy go lucky child, playing with his big brother. Might take awhile for either of them to even want to get close to your bulldog, but then again, the goofy bulldog might just be the ticket to allow them to relax again.
My husbands nephew healed nicely after having his nose taken off by a dog, the reconstruction surgery barely shows. The dog that attacked him, the owner made excuses,wanted to keep the dog,rehome, retrain, etc but my sister in law fought and the dog was PTS.
My prayers are with you and your family. Make sure the Easter bunny brings a big basket for your boys this sunday..


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

wyominggrandma said:


> Hope your son and whole family is doing better this morning. How are his wounds healing? Knowing how young he is,won't be too long before he is back to his happy go lucky child, playing with his big brother. Might take awhile for either of them to even want to get close to your bulldog, but then again, the goofy bulldog might just be the ticket to allow them to relax again.
> My husbands nephew healed nicely after having his nose taken off by a dog, the reconstruction surgery barely shows. The dog that attacked him, the owner made excuses,wanted to keep the dog,rehome, retrain, etc but my sister in law fought and the dog was PTS.
> My prayers are with you and your family. Make sure the Easter bunny brings a big basket for your boys this sunday..


He is doing incredibly well. He only gets upset when it's time to change his bandages. I think it's me and my husband who are having the worse time with it all. We are going to sit down with our 5 year old too and talk to him to see how he is feeling because he really hasn't said anything about it and we don't want him to think he can't talk about it. Here are some pics from yesterday, hoping the swelling in his face goes down soon, but in the scope of things, he is doing well, he is a very brave and strong little boy.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

What a cute little guy! 

Deepest sympathies to all of you!


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

I wanted to say thank you again to everyone for the support. I really appreciate all the kind words and thoughts and prayers for my son. He is one incredibly brave little boy! My 5 year old is a hero and I don't think he realized the impact that his quick thinking and actions had. I think the emotional and mental recovery will take longer than the physical. Our poor little bulldog has been kept either outside or in his crate. I feel horrible for him, but very soon we will start incorporating him back into the daily life of the boys.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

He is looking great. Remember the swelling is worse the second through fourth days after an accident then slowly goes down. Yes, your 5 year old is a hero for his little brother. I bet he will start talking about it soon, and it will be good for him to do so. Since his baby brother got hurt, he might in some way blame himself, even though he ran to dad and told him so quickly which of course saved his baby brother, he still might think he did something wrong. Get him talking about it. Let him help hold bandages or meds so he can "help" more ...
Yep, the bandage changes are the worse, when my granddaughter hurt her ankle and they had to dig rocks out of the wound, that is what she remembers most, changing the bandages. But it will get better and better in time when its not so fresh and painful
You and your husband sound like a good team and are working through this together. It will take time and might even be a good idea to have someone(a grandparent, friend) talk to your 5year old if he doesn't want to open up to you and dad.The emotional toll is harder to fix than the injuries, although those take time also.
Has your baby boy seen the bulldog yet?How did he react?Hopefully a silly familiar pet will open the laughter of playing with the family dog again soon.
Prayers to you


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm sorry this hapened to you. 
I hope you and your family heal quickly. Your son is a relly cute kid and I hope he gets well soon. 

I want to thank you for posting those pictures. It puts a real person up so people can understand what can happen.

We have had bite threads that drove me up a wall with a hundred different ideas about medical tests, training, what was the dog doing before it happened, did someone provoke the dog, how about a behaviorist, blah, blah, blah. 
Sometimes none of that matters and this is one of those times. So I completely agree with the decision to PTS.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We have had bite threads that drove me up a wall with a hundred different ideas about medical tests, training, what was the dog doing before it happened, did someone provoke the dog, how about a behaviorist, blah, blah, blah.
> Sometimes none of that matters and this is one of those times.


This is a good point- I'd say in the bite threads that people ask those things of the OP, the bite is actually more of a nip or a slight warning. And we're right to ask those things at those times. 
Often a parent or adult was there when the bite happened, etc. and can talk about those things with clarity.

In this case, this was no nip or warning. This child is lucky to be alive and I think we can all see that from the description of the attack and the photos. This was almost one of those news stories we all dread so much for all involved.

In this type scenario, it really doesn't matter what the child was doing or the dog was doing, it matters that the child was unsupervised because now we'll never know...but it doesn't matter what started it, because of the severity of the sustained attack and the fact this child was almost killed.

We euthanized a dog some 12 + yrs. ago because this dog had bitten every single one of my family members except me. He bit my daughter on the ear and she had a slight red welt where he nailed her. The 2nd time he bit my son, we drove him back to the "pound" we got him from and had him PTS. 
Sometimes, though not the dog's fault, it's just not in the cards to keep it and work with it, and there's no shame in that. Life is too short to have to continually struggle to keep your family members safe from your own pet, and you can theorize and psychologize and sympathize and etc. until the sun goes down and not figure any of it out.

At the end of the day, they are animals and we all need to remember that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Frpringle. 

What you are going through with your young sons is horrific. 

If you feel the desire to re-home the bull dog at this point, I think that that is totally understandable. I think the boys might do better living with a dog. But it also might make sense to get a dog later on down the road. I am not suggesting you rehome the bull dog, especially since it did not join in on the attack, but if you do decide to do that, don't take any guff from anyone about it. 

And yes, your older boy is a hero, and he needs to be told that he did the right thing if you haven't already. I am not sure what you tell kids about what you ended up doing with the dog. I think my parents lied to us when the schnauzer bit the baby for the second time (not bad either time). I think they told us they found it a home in the country. My guess is that the home they found for the dog in the country was a permanent resting place.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

frpringle said:


> I wanted to say thank you again to everyone for the support. I really appreciate all the kind words and thoughts and prayers for my son. He is one incredibly brave little boy! My 5 year old is a hero and I don't think he realized the impact that his quick thinking and actions had. I think the emotional and mental recovery will take longer than the physical. Our poor little bulldog has been kept either outside or in his crate. I feel horrible for him, but very soon we will start incorporating him back into the daily life of the boys.


 
Wow, looking at the scratch marks it is so scary how close he came to getting his eye, your little boy is absolutely adorable, kids are resillient thank God, and it can't be said enough how quickly your other little boy reacted, this could have so easily been a tradgedy of epic proportions, bless both of your little boys, the 5 year old deserves a big Easter Basket!!! :hug:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> It's very sad that your little boy was attacked. It is made worse that no one knows what happened prior to the bite, and this was a dog that was raised with children. The outcome would likely be the same in terms of the consequence to the dog, but this information might be helpful in prevention of future bites.
> 
> I do find it worrisome that the 5 year old has been bitten as well for pushing it with another dog.
> *
> ...


This bears repeating. I'm sorry for the whole situation. And I have a dog that I* cannot ever *have around young children. I don't trust her whatsoever with young kids(she's never bitten) and won't set her up to fail. She's fine with 10 and over, but the baby/toddler pre-schooler, never ever ever.


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## frpringle (Mar 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Frpringle.
> 
> What you are going through with your young sons is horrific.
> 
> ...



I did let him around our Bulldog, and today he encountered 2 other family members dogs, he walked up and petted them like he would any other time. He is doing great with them. We aren't keeping Doof (our bulldog, and I would like to point out I did not pick the name! LOL) inside all the time, but we have been letting him in more. They gave Doof cookies and petted him and are acting ike nothing ever happened.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Your little boy is such a cutie! What a blessing that he wasn't hurt worse. I wonder if you gave your older son a 'Hero Party', that would help him deal with what happened. 

Maybe a cake that's shaped like what ever super heros the kids are into today. My 5 year old neice thinks she is the "Pink Powder Puff". I don't think your son would like that one too much! LOL!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Your little boy looks much better in the recent pictures,,poor kid

That's great that they are ok with your bulldog and met up with a couple others. I would definitely keep up the interaction with Doof (LOL) as much as they (the boys) are willing. This will help them alot I think.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but I would probably take the boys to be evaluated by a pediatric psychiatrist for some post-trauma sessions. From what I understand, it usually only takes a few sessions and can make a world of difference in recovery.


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## chancey (Apr 11, 2012)

this is tragic.
i hope your son recovers quickly w/o too much scarring, physical and emotionally... and that the rest of u recover from the shock as well... it is a terrible thing.

one thing i know for sure, and learned the hard way the importance to follow the rule **never leave a small child alone with a dog. i mean, we hear it everywhere.... esp a newer dog (to the family) and still we leave them alone just for a minute. *i did this one evening... regretfully. my son who is for the most part quite gentle and sweet-- and minds very good... well he is a young child and they can be unpredictable. just like dogs.
so yes, he got nipped. it was all dealt with. and we still have the dog, for many reasons, like the dog had tail injury at time, and b/c my son completely provoked it, (pulling on tail!) and dog gave warning growls and snapped at air, before finally nipping hand holding tail... and b/c of dogs behavior after, and really the reason it happened is b/c i should not have left room knowing my son was bothering the dog... but yah, i thought my good son was minding me as i stepped out for just a second. ((the dog has never showed any other type of aggression towards my son or any actual person))

ok, so that isn't meant to be blaming. but sometimes there isn't a clear answer. there is only prevention. so for future now, like me, you will not leave them alone either. 

but also, since u are asking why, i admit only read thru the first several pgs, so maybe this has been sugg? if so, my apologies.
but, and i am just wondering aloud here- is it possible your son is special needs? u haven't said. and most likely that means he isn't. BUT i have heard of dogs, not nec gsds, but dogs in general--- showing aggression towards kids w/ special needs, and by special needs i mean just that ie autism etc and YES i have also heard amazing stories (mostly amzing vs bad stories) of how dogs treat kids w/ special needs. 

but back to your situation, it was just a thought. plz don't read anything into aside from what it is.

i have heard of dogs who freaked out when a person had a seizure. then u hear about the dogs who can detect onset of a seizure. so there are both sides. again, not saying your son has anything going on....

moving past that possibility.... b/c i too have a young child. well, they make a LOT of crazy high pitched noises in play! boys esp! mine sure does. or did. he had a friend over the other day (who by the way is autistic and who cares about that, we love this kid) and this kid was making all these high pitched sounds. my dog was really flipping out. mostly his head was moving side tilt to side tilt kinda like "wtf is that crazy sound coming from a human?" at the boy.... the boy wouldn't stop the noise and i felt compelled to remove the dogs. just b/c i wasn't sure what might happen. the dog was very confused. it was almost bird tweeting whimpering squeaky sounds.

a trainer i ment'd this to told me that just leashing my dog to ensure safety might have been smarter as my son will prob cont to play with this boy, which means the odd noises will also be around. so better to desensitize my dog to it or something....

anyhow. 
i am truly sry this has happened to your baby and again, well wishes 
plz let us know how your son is doing...


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## chancey (Apr 11, 2012)

ps
sadly i too would put your particular dog to sleep.
it is sad all the way around.
Blessings.


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## chancey (Apr 11, 2012)

pss
i to love idea of some type of hero party for your 5yo old! 
but include the other as well...
hmmmm maybe just a general superhero party theme, and invite other kids and all dress up in superhero costumes.
cheering all kids, but esp your 2 precious kids 
my 5yo would love to go!!!


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## chancey (Apr 11, 2012)

last ps i promise!
onxy-girl------or onxy im bad speller! sry
THANK YOU for those links!!!
yes that is what i am saying. 
prevention.
only thing works.....
plz note, if my dog had attacked my child, esp face/neck shake bite (the kill bite) i would have immed put down. prob shot dog dead myself that night....so incase anyone wondering, i did speak w/ vet knws dog, and a trainer who agreed our particular circumstances, the dogs temperment etc, his tail wound etc, it all warranted consideration...((and proved i was idiot to leave alone w/ misbehaving child)
finally, it has been nearly 2yrs and has nvr displayed aggression towards ppl. or kids incl crying infants. 
and
i've only read down now the most recent posts, i will now go back and read more as i'd like to see pix these adorable kids as well


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