# Ongoing Adventures with the Uninformed



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I frequent a local dog park with my two when there is no one else present. 
Today we were finishing up on a 1.5 hour play session at a park when a girl in her 20's arrived at the gate holding a very young puppy. Keep in mind, the rules state all dogs must be 4 months old, fully vaccinated, and well managed in order to come to the park. 

The following is the conversation that occurred as I leashed up my two and headed out:

Me: Cute puppy! How old?
Her: 7 weeks. He's half GSD half husky.
Me: (Oh no. Be nice, Kate.) 7 seven weeks and you already have him?
Her: Yep! Drove up and got him when he was 5 weeks old.
Me: A breeder was crossing those breeds? (Please no. Please no.)
Her: Yeah! Like 30 mins outside of town. He was so tiny!
Me: (No kidding!) So has he had all his vaccines to be out here?
Her: Yeah got all those at 6 six weeks. 
Me: (ALL? What the....) What vet did you go to, if you don't mind me asking?
Her: Oh we just did them ourselves. 
Me: O_O Uh-huh.
Her: Is that a German Shepherd? -pointing to my male-
Me: Yeah, they both are actually. 
Her: Oh she's just mixed? -pointing to my solid black female-
Me: (Oh not this too!!) No. Not to my knowledge. Both GSDs.
Her: Hmmm. She kinda looks like a black lab. 
Me: (Go now, self! Be nice. And leave.) Right. Well, good luck. 

Just couldn't believe it. Needed to vent to get it out of my system. It was like hitting a jackpot of poor decision making. And I'm sure she had every intention of letting her 7 week old puppy come play with two big dogs. Smh.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Face Palm:/


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## LookingForTheLight (Apr 27, 2014)

Oh my gosh... Some people are just stupid. That had me laughing and very upset. That poor pup though.. :/ Seriously, good luck to that girl.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

LMAO I run into to this on a daily basis ...which is why 99% of the time I just turn the other way when I see people!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lol oh no. You even got the "lab" speech.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

she vaccinated the dog herself? Good God... I feel bad for that pup!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You can vaccinate your own dogs...everything except rabies.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> You can vaccinate your own dogs...everything except rabies.


Yes you can. I have in the past, but not at 6 weeks.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Yes you can. I have in the past, but not at 6 weeks.



Plenty of breeders will vaccinate their own puppies as young as that.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

While some breeders choose to vaccinate themselves at 6 weeks I doubt very much they give all three rounds of puppy shots at that age. That is essentially what this girl was implying, in order to meet the requirements of the park rules. Also, given her general ignorance of other canine information, I'm a bit skeptical regarding her ability to give correct dosage and meds. Idk, it was just too many hits in a row. I packed up and booked it out of there.


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## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

Oh my...


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

I didn't even know that you could DIY vaccinate??


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## kburrow11 (Jan 31, 2014)

aceKeturah said:


> I didn't even know that you could DIY vaccinate??


You can pick them up at pretty much any feed/farm store. I do all of Vida's vaccinations myself save for the rabies vaccine because it's a lot cheaper, and I've had plenty of experience doing it so I'm comfortable with it and not worried about screwing it up.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kahrg4 said:


> Also, given her general ignorance of other canine information, I'm a bit skeptical regarding her ability to give correct dosage and meds. Idk, it was just too many hits in a row. I packed up and booked it out of there.


Right there with you...poor puppy. Hope it works out for him but not looking good.


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## CDR Shep Mama (Mar 14, 2015)

Omg, so much fail in one conversation.

I personally would have called her out on the whole "lab" thing.
Three dumb statements is my stupid limit before my sarcasm leaks out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I bet that young girl would have appreciated some input on vaccinations, breed traits, teaching bite inhibition.

It was probably her first dog and she apparently doesn't have a lot of knowledge.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> I bet that young girl would have appreciated some input on vaccinations, breed traits, teaching bite inhibition.
> 
> It was probably her first dog and she apparently doesn't have a lot of knowledge.


:thumbup: the poor pup will probably have immune system problems due to being vaccinated so young. 
and her taking pup to dogpark to socialize may be worse than having some quieter type socializing. At least she was also there during the less busy time, but still....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really respond on a case by case.

A young girl all excited about her puppy? I'll give some input.

A 55 yr old guy telling me they just lost their police K9 and he has a 130# sable female? yeah, here's your tip. Have a good night.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

I wouldn't trust that girl to properly vaccinate her dog...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

royals17 said:


> I wouldn't trust that girl to properly vaccinate her dog...


I had vaccines that I took in to my vet to administer. I did titers at one year. Seger had virtually no immunity to parvo. It looked like he was never vaccinated. From now on, I'll only do vaccines from a vet. I know something happened to the vaccine because his distemper was good. Vaccines are sensitive to heat. Could have been in the delivery of the vaccine, could have been my fridge, could have been the ride to the vet. At some point, something happened.

it's not hard to give a vaccine. But vets pay special attention to proper storage of vaccines.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

After I got home I did think maybe I should have gone back to talk to her but thought that may have come off a bit creepy/stalkerish -- to suddenly show back up without my dogs to tell her everything she's done was ill advised. I know I probably wouldn't have been very receptive of someone doing that if the tables were turned. If I see her in the future I can speak up. At the time I think I was just so shocked by the shear number of poor decisions.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

my pups breeder did the first set of vax at 8 weeks, I did the second set at 12, from the breeders stock...yes, kept it chilled during transport. 3rd set, we didn't get together to get another injection so made an appt for the vet to give it. The breeders cost is about $5 for one parvo/distemper vax...the vet charged me $20 for the office call, $20 for the 'service charge', $18 for the injection, and another $35 for a puppy exam, even though I had brought the previous vets puppy exams report with me(10 week puppy check). so a simple vaccination from my breeder cost only five bucks, but I paid almost a hundred for that same thing from the vet --Fecal was another charge....even though it was clear 2x's at 8 and 10 weeks, he was diagnosed with hookworms, so add on strongid 3 doses and it ended up being much more, lol
wonder what they'll charge me tomorrow for the rabies injection, as I won't let them give that with other vaccinations.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I kept mine chilled during transport too. Maybe it was an odd case of his mothers immunity not wearing off before 16 weeks. It's just a guess that something happened to the vaccine. And, because he's a year, I have him the DHPP instead of just the parvo he needed. His distemper titer was 1:6250. He should never need one of those again. I'll recheck his parvo in a few months.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Breeders vaccinating their own pups. Next we will have breeders giving their dogs their own ofa hip scores. 

Is there anything breeders can't do these days? It's really not just about inserting a needle in the correct place.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol farmers have been doing it for generations. It's not rocket science.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol farmers have been doing it for generations. It's not rocket science.


I'm not buying a chicken to eat. If farm animals have a reaction and so on, not a big deal. Animals was going to be slaughtered anyways.

Then there is the issue of getting a professional vets stamp of approval. I.e. Healthchecks, proof of vaccination, I.e. His professional standing means something. 

Don't like shortcuts. Don't like the notion of "it's ok because the people I associate with do it." 

No it's not okay. You don't vaccinate your own child. Farm animals? Well I don't consider high quality family companions who are bought at premium prices to be comparable to my rump steak.

This is further upsetting in that people sometimes pre-buy their dogs from upcoming litters. I chose that my dogs get vaccinated by a vet. It is effectively in 'their care' before it comes home to you. I expect that care to be high quality. Yes I consider it an insult and no good for them to do that to cut corners.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A lot of breeders vaccinate their own pups, doesn't mean they are taking shortcuts with vet care. If it is important to you that a breeder has a vet do the vaccinations, that is fine, that is your criteria, but not necessarily a reflection on what differentiates a good breeder from a bad one.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> A lot of breeders vaccinate their own pups, doesn't mean they are taking shortcuts with vet care. If it is important to you that a breeder has a vet do the vaccinations, that is fine, that is your criteria, but not necessarily a reflection on what differentiates a good breeder from a bad one.


Disagree. Completely. It's a red flag. It's not a desirable practice or std of care. If they are qualified fine. But being a breeder does not qualify you.

Also the point I made by having a second stamp of approval and monitoring by a vet goes a long way. They get a vets puppy book. That is proof to me that they frequented the vet several times. (At least for the two vaccinations).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No, it's not a red flag. A good breeder that has been around dogs and puppies for most of their lives can spot signs of illness and minor subtle abnormalities quite quickly. They have the pups in their house, they interact with them, they watch them everyday, they get to know the puppies, they can swiftly notice if things are 'off' or if a puppy is not developing normally. Like I said, someone giving their own vaccinations does not necessarily mean that they skimp on vet care in any way. They could very well still be bringing the pups in for checkups, and if shipping a puppy, a certificate of health from a vet is required, so pup gets another vet look-over before leaving the breeder for their new home. 

Good breeders keep notes on birth order, weight gain, physical-behavioural development of each pup. Much more complete and detailed than what two general vet visits in a span of a few weeks can cover. If I couldn't trust my breeder's determination about the health and normal development of the pups, and felt that I needed confirmation from an outside source that the puppies are healthy and growing normally, or was worried that the breeder may not be completely honest with me about the level of care the pups were receiving, so was relying on the vet's opinion for confirmation, then I would go elsewhere for a pup, rather than stick with that I had worries or doubts about.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The breeder can provide the lot number label from the vaccine for record keeping...and most do know how to store it for it to stay 'live' effective. I have no problem whatsoever having a breeder do the first set of vax's and worming. Worms are a given, and worming is more important, IMO than a vaccination...they aren't even recommended until 8 weeks anyway and the 2 or 3 way is all I'd want. Over vaccinating would be a serious issue if I were purchasing...never want a pup vax'd too early or with too many ingredients in that cocktail.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> No, it's not a red flag. A good breeder that has been around dogs and puppies for most of their lives can spot signs of illness and minor subtle abnormalities quite quickly. They have the pups in their house, they interact with them, they watch them everyday, they get to know the puppies, they can swiftly notice if things are 'off' or if a puppy is not developing normally. Like I said, someone giving their own vaccinations does not necessarily mean that they skimp on vet care in any way. They could very well still be bringing the pups in for checkups, and if shipping a puppy, a certificate of health from a vet is required, so pup gets another vet look-over before leaving the breeder for their new home.
> 
> Good breeders keep notes on birth order, weight gain, physical-behavioural development of each pup. Much more complete and detailed than what two general vet visits in a span of a few weeks can cover. If I couldn't trust my breeder's determination about the health and normal development of the pups, and felt that I needed confirmation from an outside source that the puppies are healthy and growing normally, or was worried that the breeder may not be completely honest with me about the level of care the pups were receiving, they I would go elsewhere for a pup, rather than stick with a so-so breeder.


?Sticks wet thumb in air.? 'a good breeder'. The winds are forever in your favor. We identify good breeders on many criteria. Not just this. This is just another one of those criteria. Collect enough of these points to push you in right direction. Unregulated industry means you need to be ever engrained into the winds and know when 'winter is coming'.

Surely the public needs ways to identify these greats. Look if everything else seems ok and that is their only shortcoming maybe it's okay.
But it is as much of a red flag as everything else.

Again the vaccinations don't just imply a vaccine. It is proof of a vet visit. It is proof that the vet saw the dogs. 

You lay too much value in the source of transaction. External validation by a seperate professional with a vets degree behind him is huge. It shows you know your limitations and strengths. It shows professionalism to degree.
It's not the be all end all. 

But what it is. Is certainly a +ve tick. And the opposite is suspicious.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'd like to know what it is you expect the vet to see, that someone who has spent decades with dogs not to see in perfectly healthy pups?

You realize no one is running bloodwork on perfectly healthy dogs, especially a litter of 10.

So the vet will touch each puppy, run his hands over it, not really looking for anything in particular, and that makes you feel better?

I'd actually prefer my breeder not to take the puppies into a disease ridden vet office...


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

martemchik said:


> I'd like to know what it is you expect the vet to see, that someone who has spent decades with dogs not to see in perfectly healthy pups?
> 
> You realize no one is running bloodwork on perfectly healthy dogs, especially a litter of 10.
> 
> ...


Everybody keeps saying 'good ethical breeder' like that is the norm. So much experience etc. again if he is established. Has a record of great dogs and his name speaks for itself you could maybe let it go.

Let's not pretend like you need a 7 year degree to be a breeder. A professional vet goes a long way. No he is not going to perform magic but like I said it goes a long way to know that a vet was involved in the process. It goes a long way to know the pups had health checks.

I see people often attack pictures of dirty unhealthy looking pups. Saying don't buy those. (Goes without saying). A vet check can identify some extra things on seeing a dog. It's an extra contact to inquire about dog. And there is the reputation of the vetenary profession behind it. Which is big.

I wish people here had as much respect for vets as they do their fellow breeders.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I agree with Lucia and Jane and martemchik. 

I was thinking back to the dogs I've had in my adult life. All those puppies had been vaccinated by their breeders, and had a vet visit before they left the breeder's home. It's very common and accepted practice among breeders that show dogs. 

My GSD breeder's vet is one of her close friends. My GSDs didn't miss out on any quality care because she choses to give the first puppy shot at home, instead of bringing the litter to the vet clinic. They eventually make it to the clinic.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I received all the labels from the vaccines any time I've gotten a puppy. Sometimes in one of those little vaccination books that the breeder got from the vet, sometimes just taped to a note card with the date given. Also what wormer was given and when. No one is taking a shortcut.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

WesS said:


> Everybody keeps saying 'good ethical breeder' like that is the norm. So much experience etc. again if he is established. Has a record of great dogs and his name speaks for itself you could maybe let it go.
> 
> Let's not pretend like you need a 7 year degree to be a breeder. A professional vet goes a long way. No he is not going to perform magic but like I said it goes a long way to know that a vet was involved in the process. It goes a long way to know the pups had health checks.
> 
> ...



I never said anything about a "good ethical breeder."

What are the extra things a vet can identify just by looking at a dog that someone who hasn't dealt with dogs can't? Name some real examples of what a vet will see that a breeder can't.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> I agree with Lucia and Jane and martemchik.
> 
> I was thinking back to the dogs I've had in my adult life. All those puppies had been vaccinated by their breeders, and had a vet visit before they left the breeder's home. It's very common and accepted practice among breeders that show dogs.
> 
> My GSD breeder's vet is one of her close friends. My GSDs didn't miss out on any quality care because she choses to give the first puppy shot at home, instead of bringing the litter to the vet clinic. They eventually make it to the clinic.


A different perspective. Breeder Vaccinations?
No regulation = problems. But ok.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

WesS said:


> A different perspective. Breeder Vaccinations?
> No regulation = problems. But ok.


In the U.S, Rabies is the only vaccine that is legally required to be administered by a veterinarian.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

martemchik said:


> I never said anything about a "good ethical breeder."
> 
> What are the extra things a vet can identify just by looking at a dog that someone who hasn't dealt with dogs can't? Name some real examples of what a vet will see that a breeder can't.


Hahaha Ask a vet my main man. How am i supposed to tell you. Im not a vet. I just know his professional opinion is IMPORTANT to me, and many others who are BUYERS. 

I see you are on your first litter. Its important to educate yourself of not just how its done in your circles, but also identify what buyers may see as a high value practise. Use the information, don't use it. It will always be a + for me. For a new breeder, its a big positive to be in touch with what consumers want. You could see it as a competitive advantage in the USA if other people are not doing it.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I never said anything about a "good ethical breeder."
> 
> What are the extra things a vet can identify just by looking at a dog that someone who hasn't dealt with dogs can't? Name some real examples of what a vet will see that a breeder can't.


Heart murmurs 
Not always symptomatic. I would be very angry if I was sold a puppy with a murmur I was not informed of earlier, especially if it was because the breeder was too lazy/cheap/arrogant to get a vet exam. If the vet is not checking heart/lungs on a litter of pups brought in, find a new vet who does adequate exams


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

WesS said:


> Hahaha Ask a vet my main man. How am i supposed to tell you. Im not a vet. I just know his professional opinion is IMPORTANT to me, and many others who are BUYERS.


I'm not seeing where any of us are saying that a vet's opinion isn't important. But breeders can be equally important, and giving vaccinations and worming isn't rocket science.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

ugavet2012 said:


> Heart murmurs
> Not always symptomatic. I would be very angry if I was sold a puppy with a murmur I was not informed of earlier, especially if it was because the breeder was too lazy/cheap/arrogant to get a vet exam. If the vet is not checking heart/lungs on a litter of pups brought in, find a new vet who does adequate exams


What age are vets wanting someone to bring a litter of puppies in to be checked?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

WesS said:


> Hahaha Ask a vet my main man. How am i supposed to tell you. Im not a vet. I just know his professional opinion is IMPORTANT to me, and many others who are BUYERS.
> 
> 
> 
> I see you are on your first litter. Its important to educate yourself of not just how its done in your circles, but also identify what buyers may see as a high value practise. Use the information, don't use it. It will always be a + for me. For a new breeder, its a big positive to be in touch with what consumers want. You could see it as a competitive advantage in the USA if other people are not doing it.



I never said anything about my plans with my dogs, making big assumptions...

You're also assuming I need a competitive advantage that is provided by a vet...I'm personally not worried about any competitive advantages. Trust me, your A+ means very little to me.

In regards to regulation...did you know that the child care industry is very loosely regulated in the United States as well? There are tons of other industries that are very loosely regulated also. Are you going to tackle that regulation before or after the dog breeding? Also, are you personally taking on this challenge or are you donating the millions of dollars necessary to do this? Or are you planning on cutting out certain social programs already in existence to find the funding for this new regulation you'd like to see occur? If so, which ones are you getting rid of?


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

dogfaeries said:


> What age are vets wanting someone to bring a litter of puppies in to be checked?


Most people do 6-7 weeks. Just before they go off to new homes. If they have a congenital heart problem (PDA, etc) then the Murmur will mostly certainly be there at that time. I don't care one bit who does the 8 week vaccines, and I've personally bought dogs that the breeder did the first one. Doesn't bother me at all, it's true that it's not difficult to give a vaccine. The vast majority of pups still have moms immunity then and the vaccine won't do anything. If you ship, you need a health certificate and exam anyway.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

ugavet2012 said:


> Most people do 6-7 weeks. Just before they go off to new homes. If they have a congenital heart problem (PDA, etc) then the Murmur will mostly certainly be there at that time. I don't care one bit who does the 8 week vaccines, and I've personally bought dogs that the breeder did the first one. The vast majority of pups still have moms immunity then and the vaccine won't do anything. If you ship, you need a health certificate and exam anyway.


That's what I thought. I know my own vet doesn't care who gives that first vaccination and worming either. 

Several years ago, I remember one of my breeder friends was handling one of her puppies and felt something odd with her heart. A squishy sort of feeling. She was a really young puppy. Off to the vet, and she needed surgery. She ended up giving the puppy to the vet tech there that fell in love with her. Gorgeous puppy. She's healthy to this day. 

I guess the breeders that I know watch their puppies closely and have a good relationship with their vets. It's a partnership.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

martemchik said:


> In regards to regulation...did you know that the child care industry is very loosely regulated in the United States as well? There are tons of other industries that are very loosely regulated also. Are you going to tackle that regulation before or after the dog breeding? Also, are you personally taking on this challenge or are you donating the millions of dollars necessary to do this? Or are you planning on cutting out certain social programs already in existence to find the funding for this new regulation you'd like to see occur? If so, which ones are you getting rid of?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No actual answer or solution?

Expected...


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

LOL Wes.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

martemchik said:


> No actual answer or solution?
> 
> Expected...


HAhahaahahahahah first you ask ME about what SPECIFIC checks a Vet's expertise are important for. I just know VET's form an intricate piece of any puzzle, regarding health. Now you are asking me about child social reform in the USA? Dr. House does not know either.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh geez, this is helpful how?


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> Oh geez, this is helpful how?


I quickly learned, that images on the web do a better job than the emoticons I started out with. Thanks martem!

Humour is the key to longevity. Never take, anyone, or anything too seriously. The take-away message I think is that what is done in one circle of thinking, is not always 'correct'. Not to say its wrong. But things can always be improved.

As a dog buyer, its a huge plus to have proof of the breeder/vet relationship. For me so far it is the vaccination books, I get from my breeder from his vet. I will use this contact. I will also use my own vet thereafter. (Maybe even stick with new vet if I am a first time owner.)

Really not as costly as people make out. Breeders can get nice vet discounts, and they can get promotion from vet too. Buyers get piece of mind, and tangible paperwork that the pup has been to the vet and implies a health check. Again its a + and certainly not a -.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

WesS said:


> As a dog buyer, its a huge plus to have proof of the breeder/vet relationship. For me so far it is the vaccination books, I get from my breeder from his vet. I will use this contact. I will also use my own vet thereafter. (Maybe even stick with new vet if I am a first time owner.)


I guess everyone's comfort level is different. I'm going off my own experiences. I have 3 GSDs that have a breeder that gave puppy vaccinations, and did their own worming. My dogs have gone back and forth between her vet and my vet. Everyone is happy.


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