# Clicker training, pros and cons?



## JJDBike (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm working on chooseing a trainer and obediance class. In preparation I'm doing some of my own training. I think I understand the basic concept but that's as far as it goes. Should I go w/ the clicker of not?
Thanks
JD


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Depends on whether or not you really do know the concept. If you do, then there's no harm in starting now. If you're not sure, wait until the class starts so you know you're using it correctly, or you'll just confuse your dog.


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## JJDBike (Dec 11, 2003)

Good point. I may not know the clicker concept well enough so I'll do some research before I try it on the doggies.
Thanks.
JD


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think clicker training is, bar none, the BEST training tool I've ever used







but there are some things about it that aren't entirely intuitive and that require a mental shift from what most of us have always done or think we should be doing. And unfortunately when we do it wrong we undermine the usefulness of the tool, even if we eventually change what we're doing. I highly recommend that anyone considering clicker training take a good clicker class to start them out.


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## JJDBike (Dec 11, 2003)

Thanks.
That's my intention.
JD


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

The concept behind clicker training is absolutely the best training concepts available out there. I've trained a lot of different ways over the past 20+ years, and the results I've had using high levels of positive reinforcement and low levels of correction have been much better than the results I had using methods based more on correction. 

I highly treasure the relationship I have with my dogs and that's one of the reasons I really like +R (positive reinforcement) training. It builds a relationship on trust and teaches the dogs to respond not through fear or a desire to avoid punishment, but through a true love of working WITH you. It's a beautiful way of training dogs with a natural desire to work with their humans (like GSDs) but also is very effective on breeds that are not so nearly bred to work with humans (like my chows). 

You get the best results if you truly understand the ideas behind the method, so going to a good instructor will help tremendously. Anyone who says "this method doesn't work!" has either never given a good try, or never understood how to do it. It's not rocket science, but it does take consistency and timing so there's a bit of work to be done on the part of the human.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestAnyone who says "this method doesn't work!" has either never given a good try, or never understood how to do it. It's not rocket science, but it does take consistency and timing so there's a bit of work to be done on the part of the human.
> Melanie and the gang in Alaska


Absolutely 100% correct. Marker/clicker training is the easiest way to communicate precisely and effectively what your expectations are. And when someone comes out with the "my dog's too tough for that" or "that type of training does not work on REAL dogs" crap is when you REALLY know they have never tried it in earnest - because those are the dogs it helps the MOST with. Switching to markers with Diesel was the best thing I could have ever done for our relationship. It's the difference between a dog just trying to avoid correction and actively learning exercises in a clear and concise manner.


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## SarainVT (Jul 14, 2009)

I start clicker training next week, and I cannot wait! This week I am charging the clicker, and my pup is already highly responsive to every click (and she is food obsessed which really helps). This is my first experience with clicker, but I am super psyched to learn it!


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

I was thinking about clicker training the other day and I have a silly question. i am just looking for an answer so please do not attack me. I am not familiar with clicker training. I use +R with Dozer but I use my voice and I whistle with my mouth so no matter where I am I can whistle and he listens.

The other day he was running towards the road b/c he saw my neighbor's dog (there were no cars coming but I still panic). I whistled and yelled to him, he stopped dead in his tracks and turned back to me. I didn't and probably wouldn't always have a clicker with me.

By clicker training won't the dog only associate doing a command with the clicker? What if you do not have a clicker with you, will the dog still do the command?

There are a few tricks Dozer will not do unless I have a treat, I think I overused the treats ;-)


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## JJDBike (Dec 11, 2003)

Great question that I would love to hear the answer to. I have heard people say "yea but you always have to have a claicker w/ you", I have heard the same quote used with training w/treats. My assumption is that eventually the behavior becomes so ingrained that is is unconsiouc/reflexive; i.e., the doge hears the command and does tha behaviore automaticlly. If done enough the dog may even know what you would expect it to do in certain situations and may just doppo the behaviore/command automatically w/ out being asked. Is this true?
I really need to know more about the concept and technique (how-to) of basic clicker training. I am sooooo anxious to get started today!
Thanks again for so much great info and opinions!
JD


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I do not use a clicker. My marker is "yes". I don't claim to be coordinated enough to juggle balls, tugs, e-collar remotes (when I use one) AND a clicker during training. I'd be one unicycle short of a circus! 

As for not having it, it's only a training tool in the marker context (not the click to calm or shaping behavior context). The clicker does is not used to gain a dogs attention in this use, it's used to mark the moment that they offer the behavior that is asked of them. Handler asks the dog to sit, the moment the butt hits the ground you click - then reward. The bottom line is that the dog understands exactly what "sit" is because he was given precise communication via the clicker the moment he sat. 

In the example of the dog running towards the street you would either use your recall (come/hier) or an emergency down. Both behavior can be trained with a clicker, but you would not use the clicker to get attention.


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## SarainVT (Jul 14, 2009)

I raised this concern with my clicker trainer, and she said they DO phase out the clicker and most dogs do well. I just watched her take the first spot with her clicker trained dog in a cdx trial, so clearly it can be done. I am hoping my dog doesn't become dependent on the clicker. I am doing it mostly for agility training. They say it is easier to train a dog in agility if you use a clicker. I will let people know what my experience is!


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## JJDBike (Dec 11, 2003)

Thanks!
JD


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

As John said - the clicker is just a training tool, once the dog knows the behavior you don't use the clicker. Think of the clicker as a way to communicate to the dog as you're shaping the behavior you want. 

You would NEVER use a clicker to give a command or to call your dog. That is one of the biggest misunderstandings a lot of folks seem to have. There's nothing wrong with whistling for your dog and I'm glad it worked, but in that situation the whistle is being used for something entirely different and should not be confused with a marker.

I routinely see people use the clicker to get the dog's attention etc. and that's exactly the opposite of what you want to use it for because in doing that you're saying "Yes! Running away is what I want you to do!" or "Yes! Don't look at me - pay attention to that dog over there!" You use the clicker to mark behavior that you _do_ want. The clicker is feedback - it says whatever you just did was correct and will get a reward, so only mark behaviors you want. The clicker is a marker never a command.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I do use a clicker often, but I also use a verbal marker, the same one that John uses. Both of them mean that whatever they did at that exact moment was correct and earned a reward. The marker ALWAYS means a reward is coming. But as John said, and I always try to remind people who ask about dependency on a clicker or treats, it's a _training tool_. If you're not actively training a new skill, or increasing difficulty of a fairly established skill by adding distance, duration, or distraction, it's not a training situation anymore. The way you use rewards, which can be food or a toy or both, is that as the skill becomes reliable you no longer need to mark and reward every single instance. You go to a variable reward system and then eventually phase out rewards entirely _for that skill_. How quickly the dog learns depends on how soon that happens. It can vary from dog to dog and even from skill to skill with the same dog. A variable reward system can be either completely random (think slot machine - you still keep pulling that handle even though you never know when or if you'll get a reward or how much it will be, yes?) or to shape the behavior, where you would reward the best responses - the fastest down, the straightest sit, the speediest recall, etc. 

I also use lots of verbal praise, (always different words from my marker) which can continue after I've phased out rewards. In the case of Dozer, I would have verbally marked the second he stopped and turned back towards me and made a HUGE deal of it. "YES! WOW, that was AMAZING, what a good dog!!!" Throw everything you've got into it, your face, your voice, your body language, really whoop it up. If you don't have a reward to back it up when he gets to you you can take him to go get one. If he already is really good about coming right back when you call him, you can skip the marker ("yes") and the reward and just do the happy praise and a pat on the side or a scratch behind the ear, whatever he really likes. 

Think of the reward matching the level of difficulty of the skill. If your dog has been sitting on command around the house forever there's no need to be continually rewarding him for that. But if he's still having trouble focusing on you and responding to the sit command outdoors in a distracting environment, you might go back to heavy reinforcement under those circumstances until it's also as reliable. So it's not like one day you're using tons of treats and the next day you're not using them at all anymore. The rate of reinforcement is always going to be higher for newer more difficult skills and then phase out as they are reliable and well established.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqYou would NEVER use a clicker to give a command or to call your dog. That is one of the biggest misunderstandings a lot of folks seem to have. There's nothing wrong with whistling for your dog and I'm glad it worked, but in that situation the whistle is being used for something entirely different and should not be confused with a marker.
> 
> I routinely see people use the clicker to get the dog's attention etc. and that's exactly the opposite of what you want to use it for because in doing that you're saying "Yes! Running away is what I want you to do!" or "Yes! Don't look at me - pay attention to that dog over there!" You use the clicker to mark behavior that you _do_ want. The clicker is feedback - it says whatever you just did was correct and will get a reward, so only mark behaviors you want. The clicker is a marker never a command.


I see what you are saying but I have a question in that vein (I hope I am not hijacking the thread -- I'm a novice clicker user as the OP). What if the dog is already walking towards you and then you use the clicker whereupon he starts running towards you as he anticipates a hotdog? Is that an appropriate use of the clicker? That's what I am doing right now. I guess my use of a clicker is a hybrid between a marker and a command right now??


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It should NEVER be a command. But you can definitely mark and reward behavior you like, even without giving a command first, I did that all the time when my dogs were puppies. It's often referred to as "capturing" a behavior - basically catching them in the act of doing something you like and want to encourage more of (such as giving you eye contact or coming to you) and marking and rewarding it. Once they figured out which things they did that earned rewards they started offering them up more often and at that point I could start naming the behavior and asking for it on cue. 

By clicking as he's coming towards you you're basically capturing a recall. What I would do is stop clicking while he's walking towards you if you've been doing this for a while. Use your recall command first and THEN click as he continues toward you. Or you can wait to click until he gets all the way to you if you've got issues with fly by recalls, or if you want an automatic sit in front when you call him, wait to click and reward until after you cue him to do that.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, I'd agree with Cassidys Mom. 

You only use the clicker once and only to capture the behavior you want. You can use it to speed up a recall by gradually raising the bar on the behavior that gets clicked, but that only applies to the behavior that precedes the click. Using it to get him to speed up after the click is not (IMO) a good use of the clicker. I think the clicker works best when used only as a marker and not a hybrid command/marker. Mixing meanings can dilute its effectiveness. This is one of the reasons I'm so gung ho for people to take a good (emphasis on good, as I see a lot of trainers get it wrong too, especially in places like Petsmart) clicker class before attempting to use it themselves. 

I had been training dogs for 15 years including as an intructor before I started using a clicker and I still found the class to be invaluable. Things like what Cassidy's Mom is talking about where you capture a behavior without a command work great but weren't at all obvious to me coming from a more conventional (even though positive-based) training background.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The funny thing is that I've STILL never taken a clicker class, and in fact really haven't used a clicker in class much at all. But I've read tons of training books, lots of articles on clicker training here on the web, and also many many posts by people who have used a clicker for a long time. Plus, I've had the benefit of some very good training classes. I learned about marker training in Cassidy's first class back in 2000 so I had a good grasp of the concept before I ever picked up a clicker. Substituting a clicker for a verbal marker was a very simple transition, but it wasn't until I got Dena in 2004 that I had done much reading about shaping or capturing behaviors. 

Shaping is a bit more complicated, and it would probably be best to have the guidance of an experienced clicker trainer before trying it, but capturing is pretty easy, and especially good for young puppies who know nothing yet - just mark and reward anything and everything you like! It's much easier to put a behavior on cue when you have a reasonable expectation that your puppy is going to offer it up any minute. I don't use the technique much once they're older and they've had some training, but it's excellent for teaching puppies to use their brains. It's fun and builds enthusiasm for learning because there is no wrong answer, no negative consequences.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Capturing is ususally the quickest most concise way to teach a command as well. Combine that with luring a puppy into position and marking it without using a command really makes it clear to the dog. Use a treat over their head to lure them into a sit over and over again. Mark the sit every time, and one the puppy does it EVERY time THEN add the sit command as you lure. Repeat that a bit, and then you can remove the lure and just use the verbal command.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

No cons to clicker training. The biggest pro is that it speeds up understanding. I'm a convert!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, I haven't found any cons either and I use it with a variety of different temperament dogs. As others have mentioned, it seems like the people who have had trouble with it are the ones who haven't understood how to apply it correctly. Used as intended it rocks!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've just bought a book about clicker training today. It tells you how to learn to use the clicker and how to teach them different tricks and how to get what you want. 

I knew Yukon learns fast and eager to learn so he get treats it is the perfect way to communicate with him. I understood the concept and started to get him used to the click. After 15 times he stood there, waiting already for the click and looked up to me. That's where I started to use the word "attention", he looked at me "CLICK &TREAT"!

That thing is amazing, at first he was concentrating more on the treat bowls but at the end of the training session he didn't even pay attention to it anymore, even though it was right in front of him. He was waiting for the click first. 

It is an AWESOME TOOL! I am happy I found that book in the px and the clicker came right with it. 
Maybe I can even get him to play via the clicker.


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## meisha98 (Aug 27, 2008)

We are using clicker training in our obedience class and it's great. the only con is human error when you click when you didn't mean to. I had always thought that once you start with a clicker you HAVE to click for life. I was happy to discover it doesn't work that way and is reinforcing commands and behavior you want. Once the behavior and commands are "wired" into the dog, you don't need the clicker.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

great post! i am learning more about clicker training as I have also starting using it. I used to laugh at the concept and thought it was silly. I was very ignorant


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I've laughed at having a device to do what you can with your mouth - but that's just me being jealous that I'm not coordinated enough to click and handle a dog at the same time.









Never gave much thought to it as a concept, it's just something I've always done with my dogs to get their attention. My mother did it when I was a kid, the dogs always listened to her and I guess I picked it up.

Then someone here suggested it to me for Otto's man issues. Works like a charm, even distracts him from his other obsessions and gets him to come inside when he'd rather be running around with his ball.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I think part of the confusion on "clicker training" is the phrase. When it's "clicker training" it means you use a clicker to mark the behavior, but the training (a version of operant conditioning using reward markers and positive reinforcement) actually has nothing to do with clickers. It's the use of the clicker as a reward marker that "clicker training" refers to as much as anything. The popularity of the clicker brought +R (positive reinforcement) training into the limelight and so the term "clicker training" has become kind of a catch phrase.

A reward marker is something - a click, a word, a sound, even the flash of a penlight - that is used to mark EXACTLY when a behavior occurs. The reward marker is always followed by a reward. The dog learns through repetition that the sound/vision of the reward marker means "reward is coming!" and that's what makes them try to repeat the behavior that you mark. 

For example, let's say I'm teaching a dog to lay down from a stand. The dog is standing, I choose to lure them with a treat (one of the ways to teach the fold-back down), and as I bring the treat down and between their front legs, the dog folds down. As SOON as the elbows touch the floor, I mark the behavior (YESS! or click or whatever you use). At that point, I've already told the dog that they've performed the proper behavior and the treat is coming. It usually ends the behavior too, especially when first teaching a behavior. The reward marker basically says "YES! you did it! Let's get a cookie!" for my dogs.

Now, as I continue training the down and my dog is becoming more proficient, I may decide they're not downing fast enough. At this point, I only start marking faster downs. Slow downs don't get a YES!! or click, and therefore no reward either. I simply say "nope, that's not it!" and clap my hands or move away to bring the dog up out of the down. The dog starts to figure out that throwing themselves down quickly is what gets the reward marker and therefore the treat.

Many dogs will become animated after they hear the reward marker, because they know that the reward is coming. That's normal and I don't worry about it. The training comes from me knowing exactly what I want from my dog, and marking only the behaviors that get us to that goal. Initially I may mark tiny steps toward a behavior, but as it becomes more established I expect a higher level of performance before I give the "YESS!".

When it comes to duration (amount of time a behavior lasts), I simply withhold the marker for longer and longer amounts of time. Take the down I described above, for instance .. once the dog knows the movement (because the behavior IS the movement, not the position), I give my "down" command and when the dog's belly hits the floor, I hesitate a few seconds before giving the reward marker. This is the beginning of adding duration. Gradually I wait for longer and longer before saying "YESS!" or clicking. The dog is waiting for that reward marker, so if I don't rush things and expect too much too fast, the dog is going to progress nicely as they figure out that they just lay there until the marker happens, and the reward follows.

There are SO many training applications for this style of training. The dogs are enthusiastic and excited because they're learning how to earn the reward, and they LIKE rewards (don't we all? *L*). The humans are enthusiastic and excited because they can see the learning process and see how hard their dogs are working to figure out what is wanted. It's just plain a win-win situation.

By the way, there are people who say that the clicker affects a place in the dog's brain differently from other sounds. I don't quite believe it. My training works quite well using a simple "YESS!" but I have also used the clicker for fun, and my dogs do well with that. I also trained a deaf dog by using a penlight, and would give a quick flash as the reward marker. It was amazingly effective and the dog went on to learn many many behaviors (his owners were thrilled - they had been to a traditional choke-chain style class and had just confused their dog, and had despaired of ever being able to truly communicate with him).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## JJDBike (Dec 11, 2003)

Another greatt reply. I'm learrning s much from you folks. I only hope that someday I'll be able to give something back to you folks.
JD


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestMany dogs will become animated after they hear the reward marker, because they know that the reward is coming. That's normal and I don't worry about it. The training comes from me knowing exactly what I want from my dog, and marking only the behaviors that get us to that goal. Initially I may mark tiny steps toward a behavior, but as it becomes more established I expect a higher level of performance before I give the "YESS!".
> 
> When it comes to duration (amount of time a behavior lasts), I simply withhold the marker for longer and longer amounts of time. Take the down I described above, for instance .. once the dog knows the movement (because the behavior IS the movement, not the position), I give my "down" command and when the dog's belly hits the floor, I hesitate a few seconds before giving the reward marker. This is the beginning of adding duration. Gradually I wait for longer and longer before saying "YESS!" or clicking. The dog is waiting for that reward marker, so if I don't rush things and expect too much too fast, the dog is going to progress nicely as they figure out that they just lay there until the marker happens, and the reward follows.


Imagine that. An animated dog during OBEDIENCE TRAINING! Be careful, it could be dangerous! LOL.

As for duration, you can also work in a different marker that communicates the dog is doing what is asked, but must keep doing it. A calm "good" to mark the correct behavior, but not "release" them like the "yes" does. So for a long down, put the dog into a down and when the elbows hit say "good", but not "yes" or click until thy have held the down for a duration. This also helps when back chaining a more complicated exercise and breaking it into parts.

All with no yanking or cranking. Crystal clear communication.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDAs for duration, you can also work in a different marker that communicates the dog is doing what is asked, but must keep doing it. A calm "good" to mark the correct behavior, but not "release" them like the "yes" does. So for a long down, put the dog into a down and when the elbows hit say "good", but not "yes" or click until thy have held the down for a duration.


That's what I do too, and that's why I always keep my praise words separate from my marker word. For difficult tasks like maintaining eye contact under distraction I may use a steady stream of praise before marking and rewarding: "good.....very good.....excellent.....that's it.....great job" to let them know that they're on the right track and should keep doing what they're doing. A quick "oops" or "ack" if they look away will bring them back, and then I continue the praise until I'm ready to mark and reward.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDAs for duration, you can also work in a different marker that communicates the dog is doing what is asked, but must keep doing it. A calm "good" to mark the correct behavior, but not "release" them like the "yes" does. So for a long down, put the dog into a down and when the elbows hit say "good", but not "yes" or click until thy have held the down for a duration. This also helps when back chaining a more complicated exercise and breaking it into parts.


Very good point. I actually don't call this a reward marker, I call it the "keep going" words. That way my students can differentiate easily between the actual marker (that is ALWAYS followed by reward) and words that are only meant to encourage the dog to continue the behavior.

I use all SORTS of "keep going" words. "You are SUCH a wonderful dog ... very good ... that is so perfect ... excellent work, you're just the best dog in the world!" are all "keep going" words to my dogs. I also smile at them because my smile can be carried anywhere - including into the competition ring - and dogs learn that the smile means "hey, good job!".

One of the things to be careful of, though, is to keep the chatter from becoming too important to the dog. In the long run, especially if anyone plans to trial their dogs in obedience, you want the silence to actual signify that the dog is doing things correctly. You can't use "keep going" words in regular obedience - you have to be silent, and if you do it correctly the dog learns that as long as you're silent, they're doing the right thing. So along those lines, sometimes it's best to lightly re-direct my dog (for me, that means saying "nope, that's not it .. let's try again" and then trying the behavior again) instead of allowing the dog to do the wrong behavior or continue the wrong behavior while they're trying to figure it out. If they know that I'll help them get it right when it's wrong, but I'll smile and be quiet when it's right, then it transfers over really well to the obedience ring. 

Hope that made sense. It's kind of confusing .. *L* .. basically in training I do use the "keep going" words, but I fade them fairly quickly and just use my smile as the cue that all is well.



> Quote:All with no yanking or cranking. Crystal clear communication.


Amazing, isn't it?? I love how I can go outside with four dogs and have them crowded around me trying to get ME to give them commands so they can earn rewards. It's almost like they think they've trained me instead .. *G*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Never gave much thought to it as a concept, it's just something I've always done with my dogs to get their attention.


If it's a sound you're using to get their attention then that's not actually clicker training.







I do what you're doing too - making "er" sounds etc. but a clicker (whether it's an actual clicker, or a YES, or a flashlight click etc.) is something different. As Melanie is describing, in the "clicker training" context you're using it as a reward marker, so you wouldn't use it to call the dog or get their attention, you only use it to mark a correct behavior and let them know there's a reward coming.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestI love how I can go outside with four dogs and have them crowded around me trying to get ME to give them commands so they can earn rewards. It's almost like they think they've trained me instead .. *G*
> 
> Melanie and the gang in Alaska


Well in a way they have. While they were trained, they were *ACTIVELY* offering behavior and *ACTIVELY* learning what behaviors got them success - so they offer those behaviors (even if it's just focus) all of the time. It's a huge difference between that and a dog reactively trying to avoid correction. A focused dog that's actively pushing his handler is a beautiful thing.


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