# Superstitious behavior - e-collar



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

As to avoid a hijack, I thought I should start a new thread. We were discussing the use of an e-collar to curb a puppy nipping child.

The topic of superstitious behavior came up. I would link to the topic but I'm on my phone.

Superstitious learning (or behavior) is well documented in people and animals in the scientific community. A Google search of the term will yield multiple results.

There are places that superstitious learning is helpful, and once an association it's made it is usually very strong. Most dogs only need one or 2 corrections to make lifelong association. As selzer posted earlier, many hunters use e-collars to teach a dog not to run unwanted game. This is in fact the reason e-collars were first used in training. The dog associates the smell of the game with a harsh stimulus creating, through superstitious learning, an association of pain with the scent. It's useful for things like digging in the trash or eating cat poop. A condition of learning this way is that the dog associates the correction with the object and not the handler. 

The pitfall of this type of learning is that the trainer can not guarantee what association the dog is going make. It may be the floor he was standing on instead of the trash can, the gate he was next to when sniffing cat poop, or the person he was next to when being corrected for refusing recall.

This is not something I'm making up  

Before I understood how to use an e-collar, I used it as a wireless choker, back the days of primarily compulsive training. On the right dog, you have a chance of things going your way. Once you see what can happen when things go wrong, you will probably change your mind on the best methods of e-collar use. With one correction for unwanted barking, I made a dog afraid of his outdoor run. He would refuse to go outside through the dog door into the run. No amount of food, coaxing, or shoving him through the door would get him into the run without panic. He associated the correction with the run and not his barking. He kept barking, but now it was inside the garage.

There are many good sources of information on e-collar training available. Trainers like Ivan Balabanov, Michael Ellis and Lou Castle all have a wealth of information regarding using the e-collar as a tool for communication instead of a remote control club. These trainers also speak of superstitious behavior and it's uses and shortcomings.

If you want specific links, it will have to wait until I'm on my laptop. It's a PITA on my phone lol.

David Winners


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As long as it isn't a PETA on your phone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know a lot of people get good results with e-collars. But I also know that a lot of dogs are hyper-sensitive to things like electrical storms. I also know that they do not like being shocked, not at all. Even when they are are rushing up to bark at an outside dog, they will break, look for the wire on the gate, and then go only so far as to ensure that wire is far enough away. 

By definition, it can keep a dog in high drive, prey/outside dog coming into the yard, so territory, ect., from continuing in the behavior. The deterrent has to be significant to the dog. 

I guess I would prefer to train a dog what I want it to do, and let praise or corrections clearly come from me. And as I do not totally understand how electric shocks, electrical storms effect the dog, I will stay away from that device.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Excellent post, David! One reason why newbies to ecollars should work with experienced trainers - so easy to mess up a dog! 

This can happen with any aversives - I used to know someone who trained their two Border Terriers with the "Pennies in a Can" method. The idea is that when you catch your dog doing something he is not supposed to do, you grab your can and give it a loud shake right by their head - the noise is supposed to scare them and make a negative association with whatever you wanted the dogs to have a negative association with - like the garbage or the shoes you just caught them in the act of chewing on. It worked very well - the two dogs developed a VERY strong negative association to ANY metallic clanging of jingling noise - posts and pans clanging together, someone opening a can of soda, the dogs would run and hide and pant and shake in terror. 

This person and his wife had to be very careful in how they handled anything metal - even how they picked up their keys to avoid making them jingle. Not a fun way to have to live your life, and how sad for the dogs to live in constant fear.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

All good points selzer. IMHO, showing the dog what to do, instead of letting it figure out what not to do, makes much more sense. 

It's way more fun for me and the dog too 

David Winners


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

David Winners said:


> All good points selzer. IMHO, showing the dog what to do, instead of letting it figure out what not to do, makes much more sense.
> 
> It's way more fun for me and the dog too
> 
> David Winners


Works for human children, too


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've seen the same thing happen to people who thought they could give a hard prong correction to a dog for very excitingly pulling for other dogs. It became dog aggressive because it made the association that strange dog=pain when it was only being corrected after it entered that crazed fixated state. Tends to happen more with ecollars because electric shock is not a commonly experienced thing. I can relate to that though when I was a kid I hated playground equipment because the static built up enough to nail me and I hated that feeling. Even to this day on cold winter days I will sometimes try to ground myself before touching metal doors.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

If you're superstitious, how bout this?

If the no command is reinforced with an e-collar.

No will mean no.

Regardless what the dog is doing he will stop, whether it's 

nipping at a Childs hands or eating poop, I doubt the dog will attack either.

In any case, the e-collar is a fantastic tool that with nothing more than common

sense a good owner can have a dog trained to a level of perfection others can only dream of.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Deno said:


> If you're superstitious, how bout this?
> 
> If the no command is reinforced with an e-collar.
> 
> ...


I'm not superstitious. I was trying to have an educated and adult conversation. So much for that.

You are entitled to your opinion, but did you even bother to research anything?

You have trained 1 dog with an e-collar. This does not make you an expert, or qualified, IMO, to give training advice where a young child is at stake. It makes you lucky.

Glad it worked out for you. That may not be the case for everyone. 

Your uneducated opinion goes against trainers that have successfully trained thousands of dogs. If I were looking for advice, I'd stick with the experts.

What level of perfection is your dog trained to, that others can only dream of? IPO, PSA, OB titles? Are you a military or LE handler? 

Trainers that have been competing / working for decades in these venues pay thousands of dollars to attend e-collar training classes and seminars conducted by these experts. I doubt all these trainers are lacking common sense. 

The only reason I'm so vehement about this is that I have seen good dogs crushed by improper e-collar use it ruins their quality life, forever. I hope you take some friendly advice and decide to learn more about the uses of the e-collar training.

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Not against e collar use or prongs or aversives. Steps just need to be taken to prevent the superstitious associations either through layering or other means. If people don't know what this means they should do the research before slapping the collar on and blasting the dog for undesirable behavior. Besides I don't need tritronics when handtronics works just fine.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

An ecollar is not a correction tool. It is a response tool. You don't start off 'shocking' your dog with it. It is a directional tool. You nic the dog and it knows to look to you for directions. 
In hunt trial, or real life hunting, you can't just yell out 'hey fido it's over on your left'! 
A lot of people still use whistle commands as well as hand signals, but the ecollar quickly became the replacement of a whistle. It offered a quieter way of getting an attention response from your dog. Only one problem... Original old school collars were barbaric. Only way to describe them. Which is why a lot of people associated the ecollar as a 'shock collar' they were horrible. Only one level of stim (which was exceptionally 'hot') gave a pretty good buzz. One could expect clear up to 10 seconds for the signal to reach the collar depending on range, which didn't really help on getting their attention before they did something you didn't want them to do. Eventually they evolved to adjustable stim levels, which is when they really started taking control of the hunt trial scene. Most units had the stim levels on the collar themselves. You had to choose how much stim you wanted to use on your dog before sending them out. Then the adjustable stim on remote came out where you had to actually plug a connecter into the plug on the remote of the stim you wanted to use. So on and so forth until we got the units we have today. 
The method I prefer with e-collars is when you first put it on your dog, you let them hang out and run about and do their normal thing. Set your remote to the lowest setting. When you want their attention you nic and see if they respond to the stim. Followed by a call of their name or whatever you do to get their attention. That way the association of feeling the nic and you requiring their attention starts off right off the bat. Adjust your level one at a time until you notice a response from your dog before the name call. You are not looking for a jolt or a yips or anything of that sort you are looking for a response only. Once you find the level you get a response at I usually bump the stim one or two levels up. 
In the case of the the dog nipping the child... As I personally would go about it, if the dog looked as if he was going for a nip I would nic him and tell him no. Over and over and over.. Reward or praise when he doesn't nip or moves away from the child. The command is now coming from you... 
The problem I find with the superstitious method is not all cases can be the same. Like someone stated about the dog run, you can teach the wrong thing easily. 
So for instance, if using the collar as a correction, the dog trots along twiddle dee la dee da and then goes to nip the child. You issue the correction using the collar. 'Yipe!' says woofy. And doesn't nip the child. Yay! If a hard enough correction is issued you could solve your problem in one swell swoop... But... What does the dog associate the correction with? The bite? The flooring? The child? With only those 3 things (which could be more or less) you have a 33 % chance that the dog associated it with the bite. Not truly good odds considering the 66% chance that they associated it with something else. Also, if he associated the correction to the child you then have to worry about biting out of fear or anxiety due to them not wanting to feel the shock that child (in their eyes) gave them. 


E collars are like every training tool ever invented. You don't put a prong collar on and yank the throat off him. You don't put a choke collar on and choke him til they pass out. You don't put an ecollar on and zap the livin **** out of them... 



Sent from my N860


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

People Eat The Animals



selzer said:


> As long as it isn't a >>>>> PETA <<<<< on your phone.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have trained a few dogs with E Collars basic OB not competition stuff several of which were soft/sensitive dogs. I have found that layering it over what the dog already knows creates clear associations without any superstition. 
I also dont jack the stim level so the discomfort is never to high and my voice is always paired with the collar so its not like it comes out of nowhere. I only tend to up the stim if the dog does not heed the initial stim level therefor it does not come out of nowhere and is not a surprise. 

If I wanted a dog to stop barking in the kennel. I would say "quiet" and stim at a moderate level until the dog quiets then praise. That way the dog makes the association between the command and the stimulation.

I have layered the collar over known commands and paired it with reward, used it at a lower level and also often another pressure device like a prong initially to create dual feedback to the dog. Used it inside, outside just about everywhere I go. I think all these things combined have quickly taught the dogs how to turn off the pressure and what the collar means.

For me this has worked, I think ME addresses superstition in one of his vids and he says that it comes from the dog not understanding the stim..if I recall correctly. Therefor one assumes that if you remove the mystery you remove the suspicion.

Im not an expert just my two cents, I like the tool.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's pretty much how you do it. There are other ways, but that one is how I'd do it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Deno said:


> In any case, the e-collar is a fantastic tool that with nothing more than common
> 
> sense a good owner can have a dog trained to a level of perfection others can only dream of.


I have never used an e-collar. I consider myself to have common sense. 

My dogs are all trained to the exact level of perfection that equals the amount of time I put into training them. 

An e-collar does have it's place as a training tool. I won't say I'll never use one. However, I think it is currently over used. Too many people want to take short cuts in training.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Last night I was training with a friend and she wanted me to do the stand for exam with her dogs. Every time I touched the dogs I gave off a static shock to them. I was hoping the dog wouldn't associate that with being examined! Though, these dogs are both trained w/ ecollars as they are field retrievers so the level of shock I gave off was nothing compared to what they're use to.

I use the ecollar, and it isn't because I want to take shortcuts. In fact the training we did for the foundation was very intense and time consuming. Sadly, many think it is a way for quick fixes.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have trained a few dogs with E Collars basic OB not competition stuff several of which were soft/sensitive dogs. I have found that layering it over what the dog already knows creates clear associations without any superstition.
> I also dont jack the stim level so the discomfort is never to high and my voice is always paired with the collar so its not like it comes out of nowhere. I only tend to up the stim if the dog does not heed the initial stim level therefor it does not come out of nowhere and is not a surprise.
> 
> If I wanted a dog to stop barking in the kennel. I would say "quiet" and stim at a moderate level until the dog quiets then praise. That way the dog makes the association between the command and the stimulation.
> ...






Baillif said:


> That's pretty much how you do it. There are other ways, but that one is how I'd do it.



Yeah active pressure with a release once the command is performed is one way, then you can get into intermittent or constant pressurization. 

I personally don't prefer this method because I can't really use it when I'm in the field. But it does work good with general obedience things. Just have to make sure your dog knows what you want 







Lilie said:


> An e-collar does have it's place as a training tool. I won't say I'll never use one. However, I think it is currently over used. Too many people want to take short cuts in training.


IMO The only shortcut to training is if your dog 'gets it' the very first few times no matter which training method is used. People believing an ecollar is a shortcut is just inexperience and uneducated. One could argue, if used improperly, an ecollar could lengthen training requirements. 

There is also a reason e-collars operation is measured in yardage. 

Sent from my N860


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Last night I was training with a friend and she wanted me to do the stand for exam with her dogs. Every time I touched the dogs I gave off a static shock to them. I was hoping the dog wouldn't associate that with being examined! Though, these dogs are both trained w/ ecollars as they are field retrievers so the level of shock I gave off was nothing compared to what they're use to.
> 
> I use the ecollar, and it isn't because I want to take shortcuts. In fact the training we did for the foundation was very intense and time consuming. Sadly, many think it is a way for quick fixes.


I ran dogs soft enough to feel a static like shock. I try lower levels on my neck and higher levels on my thigh. I figure if I can't handle it, I can't expect my dog to. Also education of knowing what each level is comes in handy 

Sent from my N860


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Great topic!

People really need to be educated about the proper use of an e-collar. I see an alarming trend of new dog owners going straight for a e-collar without any training because the dog 'should know' why it's being corrected.

People are looking for easy answers and the easy way to do things and all they are doing is ruining and being cruel to the dog. It really makes me sick.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jaythethird said:


> IMO The only shortcut to training is if your dog 'gets it' the very first few times no matter which training method is used. People believing an ecollar is a shortcut is just inexperience and uneducated. One could argue, if used improperly, an ecollar could lengthen training requirements.
> 
> 
> Sent from my N860


Well, heres one for you, cupcake. I've trained dogs for years. I've trained herding dogs. I am currently training a game dog to blood track. He is working towards his 2nd cert and he isn't even two yet. NEVER used an e-collar. 

Not exactly sure where you're getting inexperienced and uneducated - but I find that insulting and degrading. You don't know me. Don't pretend to.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jaythethird, 

You were speaking of pressure and release, which I think equates to escape / avoidance training. You give a known command and stim at the same time. When the dog complies you remove the stim. The dog escapes the stim by complying.

But you then said you couldn't use it in the field. I'm interested in what exactly you are doing with the collar, meaning my above assumption correct, and what type of field you are referring to.

Thanks

David Winners


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The back and forth bickering will end now. People will be civil to one another. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lilie said:


> ..... snip
> 
> I think it is currently over used. Too many people want to take short cuts in training.


I agree that many people use the e-collar for a bigger hammer when leash corrections aren't enough. I've seen protection trained dogs with 3 collars on (one NOT around the dog's neck) trying to get them to out. 

I guess it's about the trainers mentality, work ethic and philosophy of training. There is no easy. You spend the time training or managing. I'd rather train, and so would my dogs.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lhczth said:


> The back and forth bickering will end now. People will be civil to one another.
> 
> ADMIN Lisa


Thanks

David Winners


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have trained in a class with this nasty little terrier with three collars on. An e-collar, a prong collar, and I really am not sure what the third one was for, maybe citronella for barking. Not sure. 

The thing is, none of those collars did anything for the little old mad who still wasn't paying attention to the little dog-aggressive monster. 

Maybe that was off-topic though.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My only issue is when people use them in order to teach things that can easily be taught with a treat or a toy. Not saying ecollar is terrible, but if you're talking about teaching a puppy manners...an ecollar is not necessary. And we've had a few of those threads on this forum.

I also don't like going to a dog park and seeing people be proud of their dog's training because they've strapped an ecollar on. I know most of these people have used them incorrectly because its pretty much a correction for anything that the dog does wrong. As soon as the thing buzzes...the dog just stops doing everything and shuts down. And boy their owners are proud that the dog "listens" to them.

I don't mind using it just like a prong or a regular correction collar is used. Dog learns something, you ask the dog to do it, it doesn't, it gets corrected. So...dog barks, you teach "no bark" (say with treats/toys) whatever, dog knows what "no bark" means. Dog is barking, you tell it to not bark, it doesn't stop. You correct. Ecollar makes this easy as you can do this from a distance.

If you want to use the shock as an attention getter...I also don't really like that. Unless you've taught the dog that saying its name means it has to look at you, and so when it doesn't, you correct. I wouldn't be a fan of just walking out, pressing a button, and the dog then looks at you for the next command.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I have actually gotten snubbed by some people involved in dog sport because I tend to lean towards using my electric collar vs a prong collar. My dogs really don't take kindly to prong collar corrections, and I've actually found that e collar stimulation is much less personal than a prong collar correction. I always thought it was funny when someone would give me a nasty look for using my e collar, but would just as easily turn around and yank and crank on theirs with a prong collar or a choke. 

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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Jaythethird,
> 
> You were speaking of pressure and release, which I think equates to escape / avoidance training. You give a known command and stim at the same time. When the dog complies you remove the stim. The dog escapes the stim by complying.
> 
> ...


Yes David, 
The 'escape/avoidance' that you are referring to is one correct way to use the collar. As to the mentioning the intermittent or constant pressure, some people who use this training method will induce multiple nice in a steady motion until the dog complies and some will use a constant stim until the dogs comply. Depends on the mindset of the dog and your way of teaching. Some dogs don't respond well to constant and vice versa. 
As for the field and for the way I use a collar, the field I'm referring to is hunting grounds. No matter what game be my quarry, it doesn't work well with my training or needs. I use the collar as a way to get attention back on me without having to use words. Which is what I refer to as 'response'. So in a real life situation to kinda put in perspective.... If we are out searching for a bird and I want the dog to sweep left, I nic, wait for response and use a hand signal left. To stop a dog on a sprint, say chasing unwanted game, I would initiate a constant until the dog shows response and focuses on me. I can then give him a hand signal of whatever I want, in this instance most likely a down or a sit. That way i can walk up to him and direct a circle back to the area I would like him to search. 
In order to use something like this you have to condition the dog that a stim means to focus on you. I prefer them seeing it as a calling then a correction. I am also going to start with some beeper training. Using it like a whistle command. My goal is quick quiet efficiency. 

Sent from my N860


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> I have actually gotten snubbed by some people involved in dog sport because I tend to lean towards using my electric collar vs a prong collar. My dogs really don't take kindly to prong collar corrections, and I've actually found that e collar stimulation is much less personal than a prong collar correction. I always thought it was funny when someone would give me a nasty look for using my e collar, but would just as easily turn around and yank and crank on theirs with a prong collar or a choke.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Does seem a little silly doesn't it?


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

martemchik said:


> If you want to use the shock as an attention getter...I also don't really like that. Unless you've taught the dog that saying its name means it has to look at you, and so when it doesn't, you correct. I wouldn't be a fan of just walking out, pressing a button, and the dog then looks at you for the next command.


Different situations call for different measures. As an attention getter, IME, most dogs don't require much stim. Definitely ones thought of a' shock' aren't needed for a response. Most settings I have used feel like a light vibration on the neck. Very small stimulus is needed because dogs are so in tune with their bodies they know when you barely touch a guard hair they can feel very light stims. 

IMO no one should ever use any tool with the intent to cause excessive force in order to train. 




Sent from my N860


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> If you want to use the shock as an attention getter...I also don't really like that. Unless you've taught the dog that saying its name means it has to look at you, and so when it doesn't, you correct. I wouldn't be a fan of just walking out, pressing a button, and the dog then looks at you for the next command.


I agree. I could see it as a good way to create a handler sensitive dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

David Winners said:


> The pitfall of this type of learning is that the trainer can not guarantee what association the dog is going make. It may be the floor he was standing on instead of the trash can, the gate he was next to when sniffing cat poop, or the person he was next to when being corrected for refusing recall.
> 
> This is not something I'm making up
> 
> David Winners


I've never used an e-collar but I did use a hot wire to stop a dog from digging under the fence. We only left it plugged in for 2 days. After that as long as the wire was there he never went near it. A side effect of that was when we added a room onto the house many years later, and the contractors laid out string where the addition was going to be, the dog would not go near the string. We had to walk him around to the front of the house to get him to go in and out.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I think a distinction needs to be drawn between a startling shock and low stim on an e-collar. Folks seem to be using the same interchangeably (at least in argument) and each has a very different effect.
A hot wire gives a heck of a zap; it's a single-shot lesson for most animals. Low stim is more of a nag, like a leash pop.

I compare low stim to a 'regular' correction on a collar that serves as more of a 'watch me' or 'pay attention' or 'shape up' and a hard shock (like a hot fence) as a trauma event, maybe choking out the dog or beating it with the leash. One doesn't matter much, but it will shape over time. The other is a harsh lesson that can have much deeper implications. I've NEVER had a dog associate a training leash pop with sudden trauma to floor surface, but I have seen a dog refuse to come into a ring after he was soundly choked out the last time he was in.

Then again, I'm no expert in e-collars. It's just what I've seen myself and what I've experienced with hot fences myself, lol!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Might not be a bad idea to have a sticky where people can post their favorite e collar training resources.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Noob here on e-collar work. Familiar with them, but have not used one for any length of time of any if my dogs. But totally cool with them when used right. Will probably end up using one at some point on my new dog. 

Would like some input on one if my favorite ecollar stories. I think it falls under the "superstition". But not sure...

SAR dog in my unit had started chasing deer. Handler, great handler and amazing trainer, started using the ecollar to teach avoidance of the scent if deer. Not sure what she was doing exactly cause I was not involved in that. 

At training one day, the victim was placed in a deer stand that was on the edge if a wood, and overlooked a large field. As victim was waiting to be found, she sees deer running through the field, said dog close behind. Victim radios handler, who is out if sight of dog(he was a big ranger). Handler stims dog. Dog stops, shakes his head, looks around, and then starts back after the deer. Victim radios handler again, handler stims dog again. Dog stops again, shakes his head, takes a step and catches victims scent. Follows scent cone to victim and gets GIANT reward session. 

Dog stopped chasing deer. So it was serendipitous that the victim was able to tell handler, handler was completely out if sight if dog, dog got a correction at correct time and then rewarded for appropriate behavior. To me this falls under "superstitious". That dog, from that day on, thought chasing deer got him in trouble, even if "mom" was no where to be found. So if he did his job he got to play. 

Just curious as to more experienced users of the ecollars take on this situation. Would you say it was used correctly? How would define this type if usage? 


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

marbury said:


> I think a distinction needs to be drawn between a startling shock and low stim on an e-collar. Folks seem to be using the same interchangeably (at least in argument) and each has a very different effect.
> A hot wire gives a heck of a zap; it's a single-shot lesson for most animals. Low stim is more of a nag, like a leash pop.
> 
> I compare low stim to a 'regular' correction on a collar that serves as more of a 'watch me' or 'pay attention' or 'shape up' and a hard shock (like a hot fence) as a trauma event, maybe choking out the dog or beating it with the leash. One doesn't matter much, but it will shape over time. The other is a harsh lesson that can have much deeper implications. I've NEVER had a dog associate a training leash pop with sudden trauma to floor surface, but I have seen a dog refuse to come into a ring after he was soundly choked out the last time he was in.
> ...



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Lol. Yup hot wires are nearly invisible at night. Which is when I've experienced most of my non voluntary hot wire escapades. 

And for anyone's knowledge looking to develop into the subject you can often decide someone's feelings on an ecollar with how they associate words to the collar... (shock, stim,) 
At least IME
Sent from my N860


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Noob here on e-collar work. Familiar with them, but have not used one for any length of time of any if my dogs. But totally cool with them when used right. Will probably end up using one at some point on my new dog.
> 
> Would like some input on one if my favorite ecollar stories. I think it falls under the "superstition". But not sure...
> 
> ...


Well, IMO on the subject.... 
Considering the dog is SaR I think only the end result is what matters. With an SaR dog you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about what the dog associates the correction with. (The scent, the deer itself).. Also the reward of finding the 'victim' and receiving the reward session surely magnified the dogs choice on which scent he would rather investigate. I'd say a little luck was around as well, if a stim was issued when not exactly 'hot' on the deer, could have went a little differently. 
Very glad the issue did get sorted out though. 

Sent from my N860


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

xxx


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Noob here on e-collar work. Familiar with them, but have not used one for any length of time of any if my dogs. But totally cool with them when used right. Will probably end up using one at some point on my new dog.
> 
> Would like some input on one if my favorite ecollar stories. I think it falls under the "superstition". But not sure...
> 
> ...


This is a good example of superstitious learning. It is also an example that demonstrates how any behavior learned by the dog on its own, without human intervention that is obvious to the dog, is usually very strong behavior. The same holds for free shaping. If the dog figures it out on its own, the tendency for the behavior to be repeated is very likely.

Where problems could have happened is if the dog was in fact following the odor of the victim and not the deer, or if the dog associated the stim with another object that was nearby. In this case, it sounds like proper stim levels were used, combined with proper timing, resulting in the wanted association (deer are bad) being created. This was paired with reward after the find which reinforced the previously trained wanted behavior.

Thanks for sharing the story!

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

marbury said:


> I think a distinction needs to be drawn between a startling shock and low stim on an e-collar. Folks seem to be using the same interchangeably (at least in argument) and each has a very different effect.
> A hot wire gives a heck of a zap; it's a single-shot lesson for most animals. Low stim is more of a nag, like a leash pop.
> 
> I compare low stim to a 'regular' correction on a collar that serves as more of a 'watch me' or 'pay attention' or 'shape up' and a hard shock (like a hot fence) as a trauma event, maybe choking out the dog or beating it with the leash. One doesn't matter much, but it will shape over time. The other is a harsh lesson that can have much deeper implications. I've NEVER had a dog associate a training leash pop with sudden trauma to floor surface, but I have seen a dog refuse to come into a ring after he was soundly choked out the last time he was in.
> ...


Here you refer to low stim as "like a leash pop."

For the sake of discussion, as this has nothing to do with superstitious behavior, I'd like to address stim levels and escape training versus corrections.

When using an e-collar to implement escape training to tighten up obedience, the stim levels are such that the dog can barely feel the stim. It's not about a correction at all. Stim in this type of training is not the equivalent of a leash pop. It's closer to a mosquito bite. It's about communication, not correction, much like leash pressure with a prong collar.

Jay uses the collar to get the dog's attention. I find this a waste of money, unneeded equipment on the dog, and an opportunity missed. A dog can hear a quick chirp on a whistle from a mile away. Train focus on the whistle and leave your collar at home. Now if you use the e-collar to reinforce the focus command, that is understandable. Not that I don't understand the scenario that nick means look at me, and constant means LOOK AT ME. I just feel there are easier (on the dog) ways to get focus. And I was hunting birds with dogs for 20 years before I started military detection training.


David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jaythethird said:


> Well, IMO on the subject....
> Considering the dog is SaR I think only the end result is what matters. With an SaR dog you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about what the dog associates the correction with.


With an SAR dog, it is critical that the proper association is made. What if the dog associates the stim with trees, long grass, the sound of the creek it was running next to, or a bird flying overhead.

With a working dog, and with this training tool in general, a haphazard approach can lead to career ending consequences. Just like the dog that wouldn't go near construction string, an improper association can have a lifelong effect on the dog. There is no way to know ahead of time how the dog will generalize it's experience. In the case of the SAR dog running deer, two experienced trainers stacked the odds in favor of a good outcome. They picked the right tool for the right dog and utilized it in a manner that ended up with the right outcome. I would say that they had a well thought out plan, something most owners don't consider when tightening the orange strap around their dog's neck.

David Winners


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Absolutely. Had the stim come at the wrong time, say when the dog had caught the "victims" scent, then the dog would have been corrected for the wrong thing. 

In the long run, the timing was perfect. It could have easily gone the wrong way. The handler could have been inattentive, the victim could have been a second off. It happened to work perfect, but I agree that with wrong timing the opposite effect could have been had. And an amazing SAR dog been ruined in the process. Had the correction come as he was moving towards the victim??? 

I like Ecollars as a tool. But like any tool we need to understand their benefits and detractors. Every tool has it's good and bad points. Used right, they are great. Used wrong, messed up dog. But the same can he said for a prong,choke, clicker. A tool is a tool. If it's the only thing in your box, you have problems. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Here you refer to low stim as "like a leash pop." etc...


I agree! I overstated for simplicity. Excellent clarification.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Absolutely. Had the stim come at the wrong time, say when the dog had caught the "victims" scent, then the dog would have been corrected for the wrong thing.
> 
> In the long run, the timing was perfect. It could have easily gone the wrong way. The handler could have been inattentive, the victim could have been a second off. It happened to work perfect, but I agree that with wrong timing the opposite effect could have been had. And an amazing SAR dog been ruined in the process. Had the correction come as he was moving towards the victim???
> 
> ...


I agree!

I think the confusion brought on by poor timing and improper use of markers can be very frustrating for the dog. You can be cruel with a clicker, especially with a very motivated dog.

IMO, the timing was perfect because the trainers understood what they were doing and could read the dog.

David Winners


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

David Winners said:


> With an SAR dog, it is critical that the proper association is made. What if the dog associates the stim with trees, long grass, the sound of the creek it was running next to, or a bird flying overhead.
> 
> 
> David Winners



See QUOTE below. Was referring association to that of the scent of the animal or the physical being. 






Jaythethird said:


> Well, IMO on the subject....
> Considering the dog is SaR I think only the end result is what matters. With an SaR dog you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about what the dog associates the correction with. (The scent, the deer itself)..
> 
> Sent from my N860










David Winners said:


> Jay uses the collar to get the dog's attention. I find this a waste of money, unneeded equipment on the dog, and an opportunity missed. A dog can hear a quick chirp on a whistle from a mile away. Train focus on the whistle and leave your collar at home. Now if you use the e-collar to reinforce the focus command, that is understandable. Not that I don't understand the scenario that nick means look at me, and constant means LOOK AT ME. I just feel there are easier (on the dog) ways to get focus. And I was hunting birds with dogs for 20 years before I started military detection training.
> 
> 
> David Winners


A single chirp on a whistle is what i use as a whoa command from afar. When another dog is hot I whoa him to respect the other dogs find so we can concentrate on the area of the 'hot' dogs interest. When wanting attention I do not want a whoa like 'turn off your senses' stop. I want a glance for command. 
The method works best for me as it is interchangeable no matter what I am hunting. Bear, coyote, mountain lion, bobcat, pheasant, duck, geese, Fox... Although strategically are similar require different commands and ways of going about things. I don't really want to worry about whistling while trenching up and down snow covered mountains chasing cats, much easier to reach my remote. Same goes while on a set out yote hunting, don't really wanna start whistling when dogs come in. I prefer close shots  
And considering a good collar is about the same price as my first case of ammo for the season, price doesn't much effect the outcome of having added ease. 
I do use the collar for reinforcement, it would be pretty much useless if not.. I just don't feel as if there is time and space to do a complete readout of my personal implementation of an ecollar 
But... All being said. A good dog handler uses what works for them and their dog... So to each their own
Sent from my N860


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I'm not superstitious. I was trying to have an educated and adult conversation. So much for that.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion, but did you even bother to research anything?
> 
> ...


 
David, I have never claimed to be an expert.

But I do claim to have a real world Protection/Guard dog that would protect the inside of my house against a home invasion or a 

break in to the death. With two words I can command him to show aggression on demand. If the need arises I can put him on a man.

I can take him anywhere anytime off the lead right out of truck with no worries of him getting into any kind of trouble. 

He is as sharp as a razor on all of his basic commands. I feel I have total control of him 95% of the time or better.

I have accomplished all of this on my own by doing my research, no we don't have any titles.

I have never used the collar on him other than to tweak known task for a sharper response or to stop unwanted behavior. 

My collar has 100 levels of stimulation in the shock mode. I use level 60 when tweaking. 

I stopped him from chasing and viciously biting at my motorcycle with one level 100 correction. 

I stopped him from getting in the garbage with around 3 level 100 corrections.

The no command (which no one has addressed) was reinforced with the collar. Dex understands and obeys no whatever the situation. 

Dex is the only dog I have ever trained to this level and he is also the only one I have used an e-collar on. 

As the uneducated peasant I am, I do feel like a lot of people demonize and over complicate the e-collar.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Deno said:


> As the uneducated peasant I am, I do feel like a lot of people demonize and over complicate the e-collar.


I do completely agree with this. 
I personally never knew e-collars could be considered bad until my town got the Internet in 2005... Everyone I grew up with had em, ran em, used em, everything... Without the thought ever crossing my mind of how cruel some thought they were 

I have found Ecollar discussions are very comparable to discussions of abortion... 

Sent from my N860


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

So I can contribute to this training discussion, yay!! Lol, I actually witnessed and learned about a particular type of ecollar training to get a dog to stop chasing children...it was a play/prey chase...but scary, as it was a 130ish lb rottie. The dog was put in a "down" (on a backtie). My two year old and I would play about 30 ft from the dog...lots of running, screaming, lots of screaming, yelling, laughing, basic behaviors that can throw a prey dog into prey-mode. The dog was stimed for breaking the down....it was explained to me like this...the trainer did NOT want the dog to associate the shock with the children, therefore inducing fear of the child. The dog could watch the children, but it couldn't break the down. It got a stim for breaking the down. It took one or two stims for the dog to realize "down" was safe. Here comes the experienced trainer requirement. The dog was also stimmed for "mentally" breaking the down. The dog would physically read like he was mentally breaking the down, in his mind he was chasing the kids. Ears back, leaning forward, general "ready to pounce" attitude...that also got him a stim. The trainer explained to me that this was why it was SO important that someone who can read dogs very VERY well do this type of training. Because the dog needs to know that "down" and relaxed/calm is safe. ANY type of behavior that had to do with breaking the down either mentally or physically received a stim. 

At first I was not sure about this, the whole "mentally breaking the down" thing. But I watched....it was so obvious the dog knew what was "safe" and what wasn't. Once or twice he physically broke the down, got up, leaned toward the kids against the line...and he got a stim and a repeat of the command. Then he was good for awhile, but my kid screamed and giggled and he "mentally" broke the down...ears back, leaning forward, etc...and he got a stim and he settled into the down...you could see him change his demeanor...and settle into the down....then he would watch the kids, but calmly and not breaking the down. No stim for watching the kids, only if he gave indication of mentally breaking the down...this happened a few more times when the venue and kids changed (we went to a park, movie theatre, etc...) and I think they only stimmed him 2 or 3 more times...and now he's fantastic...no chasing, no over-excitement...completely trusted around kids.

Not sure if this has anything to do with superstitious behavior (never heard that or read about that until now)...but the trainer made it very clear that it's so important that someone do this that knows what they are doing, because it is SO easy to make the dog associate the stim with something other than what you want. She didn't want the dog to be scared of kids, she wanted the dog to learn to control the impulses that would cause him to break a command...chasing children in particular. She said it's all about clarity adn timing. The dog is now a service dog for a man in a wheelchair, and last I heard doing very very well, and it only took three days and a grand total of 6 or 7 stims. So it worked. Now I'll read the rest of the thread and see if I am typing something that has nothing to do with this discussion lol. 

Edit: I should add, the trainer told me that the clarity had to not only be clarity in the command, but clarity on WHAT stopped the stim. In this case it was back into a down, and calm...not showing any kind of mental draw to the impulse/distraction. She said it had to be very very clear to the dog HOW he got the stim to stop..how he could become safe...and that's where timing and experience came in.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jaythethird said:


> Yeah active pressure with a release once the command is performed is one way, then you can get into intermittent or constant pressurization.
> 
> I personally don't prefer this method because I can't really use it when I'm in the field. But it does work good with general obedience things. Just have to make sure your dog knows what you want
> 
> ...


Agree with the bold part x100!!! I have watched my trainer have to "fix" so many issues with people that misused an ecollar and now the dog has associated the stim with THEM and doesn't want to be anywhere near them. 

I am a HUGE fan of the ecollar. I think it's great on so many levels, long distance communication (field dogs/hunting dogs), removing the handler from the correction (a handler with poor timing or a very handler sensitive dog), and I think it can be used as a tool to get really quick obedience in times when the dog doesn't have time (Loucastle has two awesome examples on his site about dogs that were on death row at the pound and were 'fixed/saved' in one or two sessions)....HOWEVER, it is a tool, and just like any tool, it can be abused, used in very unclear ways, and create lots of conflict between the handler and dog. 

I think "short cut" is being used in a way of "well it's mean and if you took the time you could do it with cookies and praise." Well, fine....but sometimes faster is better. And sometimes faster is more clear. It's all about the individual dog and the situation. I haven't had to use an ecollar yet....I have just seen how awesome of a tool it can be, and just because some idiots don't know how to use it...I don't think the *tool* should be hated, only the people that use it wrong.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jaythethird said:


> I do completely agree with this.
> I personally never knew e-collars could be considered bad until my town got the Internet in 2005... Everyone I grew up with had em, ran em, used em, everything... Without the thought ever crossing my mind of how cruel some thought they were
> 
> *I have found Ecollar discussions are very comparable to discussions of abortion... *
> ...


Haha so true, I have to say, this is the cleanest/nicest I have seen an ecollar/correction thread go....ah, but the night is still young! lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dani, 

Really nice example of a controlled situation. I also agree that reading the dog and understanding how the pressure you put on the dog is going to effect it, before that pressure is applied, is key to success. 

I know you have seen this in the blind, on a back tie, and on the sleeve, especially with some of the people you train with. Teaching the dog how to turn off pressure is the key to adding pressure to the dog. Reading the dog and adjusting accordingly leads to understanding.

I'd love to train with Chris some day BTW.

David Winners


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Dani,
> 
> Really nice example of a controlled situation. I also agree that reading the dog and understanding how the pressure you put on the dog is going to effect it, before that pressure is applied, is key to success.
> 
> ...


So, what's this "layering" that you spoke of a few times?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> So, what's this "layering" that you spoke of a few times?


That was Blitzkrieg that spoke of layering.

IMHO, layering is adding the e-collar work to your training after all the behaviors are already trained. It's supplementing positive reinforcement with escape training to add another layer of communication with the dog, and to tighten up behaviors. 

SIT+ stim (simultaneous) then dog sits and stim stops (simultaneous).

Not answering for Blitzkrieg here!


David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Winners said:


> That was Blitzkrieg that spoke of layering.
> 
> IMHO, layering is adding the e-collar work to your training after all the behaviors are already trained. It's supplementing positive reinforcement with escape training to add another layer of communication with the dog, and to tighten up behaviors.
> 
> ...


Thats it . Not my phrasology got it from ME.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jaythethird said:


> Different situations call for different measures. As an attention getter, IME, most dogs don't require much stim. Definitely ones thought of a' shock' aren't needed for a response. Most settings I have used feel like a light vibration on the neck. Very small stimulus is needed because dogs are so in tune with their bodies they know when you barely touch a guard hair they can feel very light stims.
> 
> IMO no one should ever use any tool with the intent to cause excessive force in order to train.


I know what you're getting at...but my point is that I don't understand the need for a different tool when your voice should be able to do the same and has done so for hundreds if not thousands of years. If you're too lazy to say your dog's name in order to get its attention...or haven't done the work to make your dog know that when you say its name it should look at you for further direction...you shouldn't be using an ecollar to get the same effect.

I can understand if you're hundreds of yards away and need something, but for the majority of people they don't need that as their dogs should never be hundreds of yards away from them in the first place. And if the use of an ecollar is the reason they feel comfortable with their dog being that far away...I don't believe they should be using one.

On the flip side...if your dog is in crazy high drive, or on a bite of some sort, and you can't get through to them in any way but giving a little shock as a reminder, I understand that as a proper use of an ecollar.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I use a two way radio to communicate with my dog when it's hundreds of meters away.

Works great 

David Winners


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

David- is the layering similar to NePoPo? I hate acronyms but am just curious as I am at the proofing stage for a few behaviors and consider e-collar at low stim. I have only used it for recall and aversion (porcupines) in the past.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> David- is the layering similar to NePoPo?


Yep, my understanding (which may be flawed -- this ain't my area of expertise by a long shot!) is that they're essentially the same thing.

NePoPo adds a reward along with the cessation of the aversive but that's the only key distinction I'm aware of.

Like I said, though, this isn't something I ever made a serious study of.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

What Merciel said 

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I am guilty of jumping back and forth between the two. Sometimes I go all nepopo sometimes I just use it to clean up what the dog already knows. For my nepopo is more stim during exercises to increase speed and reliability and layering is more momentary stim to clean up errors and bring some precision. Thats just me though i guess when you think about it you can layer nepopo...lol


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

David Winners said:


> There are many good sources of information on e-collar training available. Trainers like Ivan Balabanov, Michael Ellis and Lou Castle all have a wealth of information regarding using the e-collar as a tool for communication instead of a remote control club. These trainers also speak of superstitious behavior and it's uses and shortcomings.


Late to the party AGAIN. Lol. Thanks for the kind words David. You put me in pretty elevated company there.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> I know a lot of people get good results with e-collars. But I also know that a lot of dogs are hyper-sensitive to things like electrical storms.


The only thing that Ecollars have in common with _"electrical storms"_ is that they both have " the "E" word in them. The fact that some dogs have problems with such storms is due to the noise of the thunder and/or the barometric pressure changes that occur. They have no idea that the lightning produces a flow of electrical current. 



selzer said:


> I also know that they do not like being shocked, not at all.


That's the point. It means that they will work to avoid it happening again and that they will do something again that they've learned shuts it off. 



selzer said:


> By definition, it can keep a dog in high drive, prey/outside dog coming into the yard, so territory, ect., from continuing in the behavior. The deterrent has to be significant to the dog.


If you're using high levels of stim, then it IS _"significant to the dog."_ But if you're using low levels of it, it's NOT very _"significant ... "_ That's why it takes more reps with low level stim. 



selzer said:


> I guess I would prefer to train a dog what I want it to do, and let praise or corrections clearly come from me.


Lots of people want this. But having a dog think that the stim comes from the environment and that it's his behavior that makes it start and stop, gives reliable results very quickly. 



selzer said:


> And as I do not totally understand how electric shocks, electrical storms effect the dog, I will stay away from that device.


No one _"totally understands"_ how ANYTHING we do _"affects the dog."_ We DO know that no study ever done has shown any long−lasting OR short−term negative physical effects from use of the tool, even at high levels of stim.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

David Winners said:


> The only reason I'm so vehement about this is that I have seen good dogs crushed by improper e-collar use it ruins their quality life, forever. I hope you take some friendly advice and decide to learn more about the uses of the e-collar training.
> 
> David Winners


David I get that you're passionate about this. I've had several such dogs as clients and while it's sad to see what they've become, most of them can be brought back from this. It just takes the right touch and the right method.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

martemchik said:


> My only issue is when people use them in order to teach things that can easily be taught with a treat or a toy. Not saying ecollar is terrible, but if you're talking about teaching a puppy manners...an ecollar is not necessary. And we've had a few of those threads on this forum.


Well then you're gonna hate me and my methods. I use the Ecollar to teach basic OB and I do it no matter whether the dog already knows the behaviors or not. The common method of _"overlaying"_ the stim over the top of leash corrections sometimes causes fallout, undesired, usually unpredicted, side effects. Using the Ecollar as if the dog knew nothing, completely avoids such issues. I'm not sure what you mean by _"teaching a puppy manners"_ but if you mean basic OB, I see nothing wrong with using the Ecollar for this. Just because something can be taught with _"a treat or a toy"_ does not mean that it's the best or the only way. 



martemchik said:


> I also don't like going to a dog park and seeing people be proud of their dog's training because they've strapped an ecollar on.


I've never seen a dog that someone could be _"proud of the dog's training because they've strapped an Ecollar on."_ Merely putting an Ecollar on a dog does not transform him from "untrained" into "trained." Work still has to be done. 



martemchik said:


> I know most of these people have used them incorrectly because its pretty much a correction for anything that the dog does wrong. As soon as the thing buzzes...the dog just stops doing everything and shuts down. And boy their owners are proud that the dog "listens" to them.


Those folks are using the Ecollar to interrupt undesired behavior, not for training. They become "addicted to juice" as the saying goes, and the dogs usually don't behave without the Ecollar on. I don't think that's what we're talking about when we talk about using the Ecollar for training a dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

gsdsar said:


> SAR dog in my unit had started chasing deer. Handler, great handler and amazing trainer, started using the ecollar to teach avoidance of the scent if deer. Not sure what she was doing exactly cause I was not involved in that.
> 
> At training one day, the victim was placed in a deer stand that was on the edge if a wood, and overlooked a large field. As victim was waiting to be found, she sees deer running through the field, said dog close behind. Victim radios handler, who is out if sight of dog(he was a big ranger). Handler stims dog. Dog stops, shakes his head, looks around, and then starts back after the deer. Victim radios handler again, handler stims dog again. Dog stops again, shakes his head, takes a step and catches victims scent. Follows scent cone to victim and gets GIANT reward session.
> 
> ...


Remember that "chasing deer" is why Ecollars were invented in the first place. This works _most of the time to _stop dogs from chasing deer, but sometimes the fallout is extreme. And the worst part of it is, that there's no way to predict when it will or won't occur. Most dogs in this situation will make the association between the pain and the chase and will stop chasing. 

But some dogs will power through the stim and learn that if they just (human equivalent) "grit their teeth and go through it" that it stops. Those dogs become VERY difficult to get to stop chasing deer. Some dogs will make the wrong association. Instead of stopping the chase, the association that they make is that "being away from mommy" brought the stim. These dogs may stop ranging away from the handler completely, or only do so for very short distances. 

Another issue is that you can make the dog afraid of the deer, the kind of _"superstition"_ that this thread is all about. If you do that, you can get a dog that very subtly, avoids the deer without letting his handler know that it's going on. If a deer is close to the lost person, or the lost person is in an area that's recently contained deer, especially an area where they've recently bedded down, that dog may miss the lost person. 

You can easily ruin a SAR dog by using an Ecollar like this. And fixing that issue is beyond the reach of many Ecollar users. And even if you know someone who can fix it, it wastes time that could be spent on other, necessary work. 

Fortunately there's a method that uses very low level stim that NEVER has this sort of fallout. Http://www.loucastle.com/crittering


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jaythethird said:


> Considering the dog is SaR I think only the end result is what matters. With an SaR dog you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about what the dog associates the correction with. (The scent, the deer itself)..


The problem is that there is no way of predicting just what the dog will make the association with. As I mentioned, some dogs think that it comes from being away from the handler. And if that happens, it can create a massive issue.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks Lou you always bring a dose to common sense to these discussions that often become emotional and loose any scintilla of reality.


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## Rino (May 31, 2013)

I have no experience with E-collars but I did find it interesting to read through this thread...
I must admit that I wasn't really a fan of them but I do see how they can be helpful in certain situations (if used properly as any oher tool). Thanks all of you for informative posts


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> The problem is that there is no way of predicting just what the dog will make the association with. As I mentioned, some dogs think that it comes from being away from the handler. And if that happens, it can create a massive issue.


Definitely agree. Which is why I never recommend people strap a collar on and start correcting. Seen a guy ruin a good dog. He wouldn't bring a bird all the way out of the river, zapped him, dog hasn't touched water since (minus a drinking bowl) 

Just one example 
Sent from my Space Cruiser


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Superstition is an interesting topic for sure.

DW opened this thread nicely and his topic is relevant to all trainers/owner/handlers i will presume

Thought this would be a good concept for people to think about in the greater scheme of living and training your dog and an element I'd like to learn more about. Obviously the author of the thread though it worthy of discussion.

Dealt with superstition a bit myself with my own female dog as a young dog. Hers would be under the heading unable to deal with environmental stress and very uncertain about new moving objects. 

Say a coat fell of a hanger, she'd be uncomfortable around that area and try to avoid it. 

If a bin was placed on our route she'd try to avoid and be coiled for flight response. 

I'm thinking there is an large element of temperament in how a dog deals with the stress and a portion of how the handler owner trainer decides on how to deal with the issues as well as his/her ability to change environment, work a dog within it's threshold and apply pressure to push the envelope when break through s are needed. 

A dog needs time to digest information as well. Everything can be over whelming for young dogs, sounds, sights, smells. They are loaded with instinct to hunt down and track wildlife, protect itself. There are forces pulling our dogs in different directions and it is the owners job to hold it together. It doesn't mean it is always held together, but self observation is very important in deciding are we acting accordingly and bringing the right energy to rehabbing or training dogs. Mistakes can be covered but if that mistake is habitual the dog will suffer.

What are your thoughts?

If I'm thread jacking here can a mod please advise and I'll open a new thread.


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