# Would Max be Proud of what his Breed has Become?



## Konotashi

Last night I got to thinking - would Max von Stephanitz be proud of what the German shepherd dog is today?

I can honestly say that I don't know enough about the origins of the breed to say that he would or wouldn't, but here's a few things I was wondering.

What do you think he would think of how popular his breed is? The good and the bad? (BYBs, the good breeders, etc.) Do you think he would be upset that so many GSDs are simply 'pets' rather than out in the field?

What do you think he would think of the different lines? 

What do you think would be his preferred line? 

Do you think he'd like how the dogs today LOOK? 

Anything else you guys would like to add? I didn't get much sleep last night; I know there was more I wanted to add to this.... 

Anyway - thoughts?


----------



## Deuce

Interesting thread idea! I don't see a problem with any dog being simply a "pet".


----------



## selzer

I think that Max is probably rolling around in his grave. But then, there is a reason people get old and die. At some point, we do not keep up with the changes in thought and society and all that. 

For example, in Max's day, nobody would shove their hand inside a vehicle to pet the doggie. And if they did, they would be blamed, not the dog if there was in injury. In some places nowadays, you might have a real struggle keeping your dog ALIVE after such an encounter. 

Max rolled with the changes up to a certain point, but he wanted total and complete control of the SV. I have read that he was very autocratic. That he did deliberately change the style of the dog as well by which dog he put up as sieger. 
He wanted the dog to be utilitarian, and losing that ability, I think he would see that as an ultimate sin on his breed. 

Early on, he was able to see the decrease in the need for herding dogs, and pushed the dogs to be more a military or police type dog, to ensure their future. I think if he had wanted the dogs to be just pets, he would have never required working trials. I think he wanted more than just pretty dogs.

I think they are more than just pretty dogs, all the lines. I think that people as well as the dogs themselves have lost or forgotten how to raise and train and use good dogs. I think there are far more dogs out there with untapped potential than dogs that are unsuitable for what their handlers want to do with them.


----------



## Denali Girl

I also know Max wanted a true "working dog" I just watched that video thats floating around on here about pure breed dogs and show dogs.....wow that was disturbing, these shepherds were walking like their back legs were broken, so sad.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Denali Girl said:


> I also know Max wanted a true "working dog" I just watched that video thats floating around on here about pure breed dogs and show dogs.....wow that was disturbing, these shepherds were walking like their back legs were broken, so sad.


You know not all Showline GSDs are like that.


----------



## Denali Girl

Jessiewessie99 said:


> You know not all Showline GSDs are like that.


 
Oh I know Jes it was just disturbing that's all. And the one that won looked crippled.


----------



## Kelly's Buddy

Actually, It's my opinion that threads like this tend to segregate a community rather build and integrate different groups within it.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I am also curious what others have to say.


----------



## LARHAGE

I don't think people are ever completely satisfied, and in theory thats not a bad thing, there is no perfect dog, well except mine,lol, but we should always be striving to improve the breed, all the lines can use improvement in some degree, and like what we see in horses as well, everyone has their favorite lines within a breed and are passionate about it. The bottom line though is they should be what the breed was meant to be, a muti-functional working/herding breed, I have no problem with people liking the looks of the Working lines anymore than I have a preference for the German Showline, it's the charachter that should be true to the breed. I see lots of not so nice German Shepherds and at the same time, some truly fantastic representatives of the breed, there out there, and a lot of us own them.


----------



## selzer

LARHAGE said:


> I don't think people are ever completely satisfied, and in theory thats not a bad thing, there is no perfect dog, well except mine,lol, but we should always be striving to improve the breed, all the lines can use improvement in some degree, and like what we see in horses as well, everyone has their favorite lines within a breed and are passionate about it. *The bottom line though is they should be what the breed was meant to be, a muti-functional working/herding breed*, I have no problem with people liking the looks of the Working lines anymore than I have a preference for the German Showline, it's the charachter that should be true to the breed. I see lots of not so nice German Shepherds and at the same time, some truly fantastic representatives of the breed, there out there, and a lot of us own them.


So dogs originally bred for dog fighting should not have that bred out of them to make them easier pets? 

The English Setter was bred so that it could hold a bird in a bush until the hunter could sneak up and throw a net over it. We do not hunt that way anymore. But the net-type setter would not have a problem being gun-shy, while the current hunting methods, that would be a huge draw back.

I think that in order for a breed to remain successful, it will have to continue to be useful in current society. Herding remains, but is much less necessary, the dog's ability to track might be even more important. I think that maintaining a breed to its original purpose could doom a breed to die out. (Though I do not see that happening with our sheps.)


----------



## Heagler870

I don't know if this video is in this forum, I'm sure it is somewhere; Maybe that's where I found this one, don't know but here it is. 





I'm pretty sure Max wouldn't be too happy with this dog. I realize not all show shepherds are like this but show dogs in general remind me of halter horses, tiny feet, big head, not capable of riding like they were intended. Max did not create a show dog, he created a working dog that could also be a pet at the end of the day after working.


----------



## Konotashi

I've only been to one dog show, and a few of the GSDs there had wobbly legs like that, but most of them (and there were quite a few there) had good, solid hind ends. One of the puppies looked like something was wrong with her, her knees were almost dragging. That was sad to look at. But that appears to be a video that's pro working dog. That tends to happen. I'm sure there's a video out there showing how aggressive working lines are.


----------



## KZoppa

Heagler, i've seen that video. It disgusts me every single time i see the picture whether i watch it or not. I agree that i think seeing that Max would be extremely disappointed and thoroughly pissed.


----------



## Heagler870

Yeah, when I first saw it, not the video, just the picture I couldn't tell what it was


----------



## KZoppa

and then.... you watch the video and you almost cant believe thats a dog huh?


----------



## Wolfiesmom

The fact that there are GSD's bred to be almost crippled like that is a shame. Regardless of the fact that all show dogs are not like that, just the thought that there are dogs like that out there is disturbing. Max surely would not think these GSDs should represent the breed.


----------



## Smith3

I don't think he'd be happy with the show standard.

But, needs evolve. He was certainly smart enough to see German Shepherds going away as Sheep herding was a dying profession, not much need for a German Shepherd Dog if you have no German Shepherds!

You really can't compare then to now, what was necessary for the standard - it would be like saying "Are horses breed to pull carts living up to the standard" - how many carts are being pulled around on streets now compared to 1900?


----------



## Lesley1905

That video is awful!!


----------



## Dainerra

Max didn't create the breed to be "just" a sheepdog, however. He knew then that the end was near for sheep-herding as they knew it then. That is why he created a dog that was a master of all trades, that could do protection, guarding, herding, anything that you could think of.


----------



## Andaka

I am proud of the dogs that I have bred. I have worked hard for 20+ years to raise and train dogs that were beautiful, smart, and healthy.


----------



## fuzzybunny

Why would people intentionally breed a dog to look different? I can understand if there were health problems and it was in an attempt to correct the problem but I don't understand in the case of the GSD why anyone would breed the dog to become more angular. What's the purpose to that? I don't understand how that even comes up. Does anyone know how this happened?


----------



## dazedtrucker

I spent many hours (more like months), researching, reading, and trying to get a handle on what was going on with GSDs today before picking out my current puppy. (it's been a LONG time since I've been "pup shopping')
I really do not understand why people want to encourage the "frog dog" thing. What are they thinking?? I would HONESTLY like to hear from someone why this is a good thing. I don't want to fight, I would just like to understand the point of view.
I chose a puppy that was predominantly working lines, with some Canadian show lines in the mix...with a long history of extremely versatile dogs, doing all sorts of work, and awesome family pets, that are beautiful, and physically sound.
This is what I think the ideal GSD should be. Exceptional intelligence leads to a well rounded dog IMHO. I really got the impression this is what the breed was founded to be.


----------



## Doc

Max would puke.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Doc said:


> Max would puke.


Doc if he came back today what do you think he would do to change things around? (after he changed his shirt and took some Tums....)


----------



## Samba

What is the extra rear for? sidegait


----------



## Doc

Whiteshepherds said:


> Doc if he came back today what do you think he would do to change things around? (after he changed his shirt and took some Tums....)


Max created this dog from three distinct groups - why? So he could make a dog that exhibited the best traits of all three. to test his creation, he challenged the dogs in many different areas i.e. the original shutzhund test. Not the sporting event it has turned into today. In his day, the dog either had what he was looking for OR it didn't. The only grades were pass or fail. IMO, Stephanitz was looking for a dog that could work (which included many aspects - not just military/protection from the Thuringer lines but herding and service as well (Swabian lines)) and a dog that would be a part of the family ( like the shepherd dogs of the Swabian region). He was well aware of the issues/challenges/problems if one line became dominate as seen in his selection of the Sergers during his rein. When one aspect was lacking in the dogs, he selected a dog that would bring in more balance as the Champion. Of course, Stephanitz ruled with an iron fist - what he wanted he made sure it happened. Some will say he had the right to do that - it was his creation. But I do think Stephanitz tried to keep the German shepherd dog balanced in his lifetime - German shepherds that represented the best traits of the various dogs used to create his German shepherd.
But Max is dead and in his absences the balance has been lost. So lost that today we see a complete reversion back to the various dogs that were used to create Stephanitz's noble German shepherd. Namely, the adrenaline driven Thurgian dogs that dominate the current "working lines" (which are really restricted to the sport of Shutzhund and protection work) and the serotonin dominated Swabian dogs (which "work" in the fields of service work, therapy, and found in the family pet markets).
So what would Stephanitz do if he came back? First he would disband all organizations involved with German shepherds and take sole control of the breed like he had in his day. Second he would pay little to no attention to most of today's breeders because in his eye, they have ruined the breed. Third he would find a breeder that respected and understood the history of this breed and the work he did while creating it. Forth, he would start breeding the various "breed worthy" ( as Stephanitz would define it) dogs and try to establish a balanced dog that exhibits his original desires. Fifth, he would reinstate his original Schutzhund testing and grade the dogs either pass or fail. And lastly, he would register the best dogs (in his opinion) in an official registry and keep very detailed records on every registered dog; nerve; temperament; health their matings; offspring; etc.


----------



## Mrs.K

You know what I don't understand. 

For every krippled GSD there is one that is exactly what the breed should be like. People tend to forget that. The GSD is not just a Showline dog, there also is the working line dog and a darn good one for that matter! 

Don't always see the negative side, there is a lot of positive stuff too.


----------



## Doc

The word according to Stephanitz was to create a German shepherd - he says nothing about Showlines or working lines. He wanted to create a dog that exhibited the best traits of the 3 foundational bloodlines he used to create his breed. In today's language, a dog that is both a showline and working line. Jack of all trades, a master of none. JMO


----------



## Liesje

Without reading all the responses.... looking at dogs in military, police, SAR, patrol, narc, etc... it seems in many scenarios the GSD has become and remains the breed of choice. That's something to be proud of.


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Without reading all the responses.... looking at dogs in military, police, SAR, patrol, narc, etc... it seems in many scenarios the GSD has become and remains the breed of choice. That's something to be proud of.


Exactly!


----------



## selzer

Liesje said:


> Without reading all the responses.... looking at dogs in military, police, SAR, patrol, narc, etc... it seems in many scenarios the GSD has become and remains the breed of choice. That's something to be proud of.


At our show -- yeah specialty type GSDs -- over the weekend, ok it was an obedience/rally trial, there were eight dogs there working on their obedience champion OTCH titles. There were dogs at all levels of obedience and rally. There were many police dogs, and a couple of cadaver dogs. 

I have Max's book, and in it are pictures that would make some people here puke. Like the child riding on the GSDs back. Yep, that is in there. GSDs and children playing ring around the rosy and playing school. 

I do not think Max would puke. I think Max would like some stuff, and dislike other stuff, like most of us do. 

Max started the ball rolling but he was not God. Perhaps there are some things he put in his book and he did in his time, that looking backwards he would do differently or leave out or add in. 

We have to take Max as what he was, a human being with a vision, and the deterimination and persistance to put his plans into some shape. The idea that Max thought it was perfected and it would never change beyond where he left it is ludicrous. 

From reading in his book, Max never meant the breed to be only a working dog, but he was insistent that the dog be excellent with children and a good family dog. Luckily the two are not diametrically opposed. 

Since a healthy percentage of owners will never need the dogs to herd sheep daily or run off bad guys, some of that will diminish as we have moved off of estates and farms and live mostly in urban areas. What would Max do? Well, he would look into other avenues that use the intelligence, and physical attributes of the breed. I like the fact that the dogs are still used for military and police work, but they are also used as service dogs, therapy dogs, various k9 sports/companion type things, and as SAR dogs. 

If you brought him up from his grave, would he be shocked, sure at first, but who of us would not be shocked at the changes in the world over that period of time?


----------



## Doc

It is very clear that IF you only reference German shepherds as working in the military, police, and protection and not note their decline in service work, you are only defining 1/2 of what the breed was created for. Do times change - yes. Should the breed change with the times? I'm not so sure. For if it does, it is no longer the breed that it was developed to be. It becomes something else. And long before Max switched his focus to the usefulness in the military, he emphasized the importance of keeping the Thuringer blood to a small percentage in German shepherds so they would be good ambulance dogs and service dogs. Running the length of a football field to bite a "stranger" was never in Stephanitz's creation. And his military dogs were genetically competent with an controllable ability and instinct. A far different dog than what is presented today as a "working line" dog.
Would he be pround of today's recognized Champions? I seriously doubt it.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Selzer,I agreewith everything you said. I was rereading Max's book. His shepherds he described as having an affinity for children I personally love the one withthe dogs and kids playing ring around the Rosie.Max on the other hand believed that men were the natural master's of dogs and that if astrange peasent was on your property the GSD should hold it but he also believed they were dogs and talked about the mischievous and sneaky stuff dogs do. I dont know the guy seemed to like dogs.I personally will never want a personal security dogmine are sharp enough, I want a pet who is active but as Selzer points out we no longer live on estates so some of that need is gone but hopefully the GSD continues on.


----------



## Linzi

Although i thank Max for our breed,i wonder what we would all be saying if a breeder today inbred as heavily as he did.This was also without the benefit of the health and dna test's that we have today.


----------



## Doc

Linzi said:


> Although i thank Max for our breed,i wonder what we would all be saying if a breeder today inbred as heavily as he did.This was also without the benefit of the health and dna test's that we have today.


Stephanitz was not a good breeder. He did inbreed heavily on Horand - a dog full of nerve issues. He also relied on a master breeder at the Krone Kennels to straighten out the mess he created by breeding on Horand and Roland so much. Unfortunately, he named Boxberg Champion in the 20's who had a very large number of lines back to Roland and Horand. And if you trace many of the Thuringer dogs back far enough - they all go back to these 3 dogs. Also, many of the health issues can be traced back to the same dogs.

You see the same thing happening in today's breediings - everyone breeding the same dogs, getting the same issues and slowly wrecking the genetic diversity of this breed.


----------



## Liesje

Doc said:


> It is very clear that IF you only reference German shepherds as working in the military, police, and protection and not note their decline in service work, you are only defining 1/2 of what the breed was created for.


I think there are other contributing factors, not just the condition or working abilities of the breed. It is becoming easier and more popular for people to obtain and train their own service animals so people are choosing non-traditional breeds. Also some SDs now do jobs where the size, height, and strength advantages of a GSD are not important. The few people with SDs I know each choose their breed of choice (often owning multiple dogs of the same breed, and one is the SD), not really because it truly is any better than the other. A GSD could easily do the jobs of their SDs. Offhand the last few SDs I've met were a white GSD, a coated show line GSD, an Aussie, and a PWD. The GSDs both assist people with physical handicaps where size of the dog is important, and I believe both were chosen or at least assisted by an organization. The Aussie and PWD were breeds of choice, chosen and trained by their owners (both medical alert dogs with the only physical requirement being carrying a small pack of medical supplies, different conditions). So yes, I think times are changing and even if some people had the option of the *perfect* GSD for their SD they might choose a PWD or Aussie or lab if that's the breed of dog they want.


----------



## Doc

I think the decline in the use of GSD as a service dog is two-fold. One, true GSD service dogs are very hard to find due to lack of selective breeding and limited gene pool. The GSD that pioneered Service work was a far different German shepherd than we see today. The original ones were a high percent of Swabian blood lines - probably 75% or more. The genetic obedience of such dogs contributed to their usefulness - Stephanitz even appreciated the Swabian dog's traits and wrote about keeping the Thuringer bloodlines to a minimum in service dogs. Unfortunately, most of today's German shepherds do not have the genetic makeup for a good service dog.
Second, like in herding and other activities, service dogs can be identified as early as 8 weeks. Unfortunately, many of the GSD that are put in service dog training are not capable of service work - and dogs that are bred for today's "work" (which seems to mean Schutzhund, police work, detection) are mostly Thuringer bloodlines - lines that grew out of protection dogs - not shepherd dogs. 
The first recognized service dogs were names Swabian Service Dogs - any guess why? And today there are very breeders who concentrate on the Swabian bloodlines, therefore, fewer GSDs in service work.
I think size is a weak point - German shepherds come in all sizes.


----------



## Mrs.K

You know, some of the best working dogs still come out of that Area. Look around the Austrian/German/Swiss boarder. That is where the strongest bloodlines came from and they are still going strong. 

You have a couple of strongholds in Germany. One of them is the Landesgruppe Baden. If you are looking for Swabian bloodlines, dig a little around that Area. You may actually find what you are looking for


----------



## Jax's Mom

I think Max could have done a better job setting out his expectations of the future of the breed... But another part of me always wants to ask "who cares what he would think? He died almost a century ago." and in that past century the world has made so many drastic changes that no one could have ever predicted what challenges the breed would face. 
Although I love the breed totally disagree with the way society has turned out, there is less and less of a "need" for working dogs at all. We have motion sensing alarms and cell phones and all sorts of chemical detectors (none which can compete with canine senses and abilities, but it's just a question of time at this point) and it's becoming more and more of a sad reality that our belovd breed is just becoming a walking liability. There are not enough opportunities for these dogs to work in the real world, so, yes, schH has become a "sport".
We blame "BYB"s and "irresponsible owners" but it's society we should be blaming. We've either outsourced or automated all of the labour that used to go on in our lives, now all we do is type on our computers and sue each other. Pardon the acronym but WTF are GSDs _supposed_ to be doing? We haven't created much of a future for ourselves, let alone our dogs.


----------



## Mrs.K

I think the GSD is the only breed where you see people referring to the founder of the breed all the time... correct me if I am wrong. 
Also, it's mainly in the english speaking country where people care more about what Max von Stephanitz wanted or didn't want.

I've never seen so many remarks about Stephanitz than on here. Just like my mother said, ya'll are a little more enthusiastic and take it much more serious than the rest of the world. uppy:


----------



## Doc

Mrs.K said:


> You know, some of the best working dogs still come out of that Area. Look around the Austrian/German/Swiss boarder. That is where the strongest bloodlines came from and they are still going strong.
> 
> You have a couple of strongholds in Germany. One of them is the Landesgruppe Baden. If you are looking for Swabian bloodlines, dig a little around that Area. You may actually find what you are looking for


Thanks Mrs. K.


----------



## danbibby

> Although I love the breed totally disagree with the way society has turned out, there is less and less of a "need" for working dogs at all. We have motion sensing alarms and cell phones and all sorts of chemical detectors (none which can compete with canine senses and abilities, but it's just a question of time at this point) and it's becoming more and more of a sad reality that our belovd breed is just becoming a walking liability. There are not enough opportunities for these dogs to work in the real world, so, yes, schH has become a "sport".


I beg to differ. Sure you have modern technology but can that track a dangerous preditor? Can a computer or camera subdue a suspect? And the question of time was decades ago and yet nothing has yet come that will replace the trusted security of snarling locked teeth upon the flesh of an idiot. Had it been so, our Navy SEALS would not have had a dog of any breed in hand when they went to put Osama in the deep six.


----------



## danbibby

Would Max be proud?

Everytime I see a picture of a GSD that gave its life to protect its owner or handler or a police officer, I think old Max would have tears.










A Cop cries for "Gunner". That about sums what Max believed when he developed the breed.


----------



## GSDkid

danbibby said:


> I beg to differ. Sure you have modern technology but can that track a dangerous preditor? Can a computer or camera subdue a suspect? And the question of time was decades ago and yet nothing has yet come that will replace the trusted security of snarling locked teeth upon the flesh of an idiot. Had it been so, our Navy SEALS would not have had a dog of any breed in hand when they went to put Osama in the deep six.


Taking the population of GSD and Humans into consideration, how often does the scenario you referenced occur in this day in age? It definitely is a benefit to have a GSD just for times such as that but most of the world is heavily populated and domesticated. You're not going to track predators or find suspects everday (Unless you're in that field). There are only few selected GSD that qualify to actually do the "work".

This day in age, you wouldn't use your GSD just to find your friend. You'd call them on the cell phones and ask them yourself. The most dangerous scenario that an average person will encounter that you would need a GSD for is when strangers come to your house for what ever reason.

Modern technology has made everything more convenient thus taking up jobs or "work" that a GSD could've done with every day life. But there are just things that a GSD or all dogs can do that you can never replace.


----------



## Fast

Mrs.K said:


> I think the GSD is the only breed where you see people referring to the founder of the breed all the time... correct me if I am wrong.


Doberman. But Stephanitz is the only one that is deified.


----------



## 2GSDmom

Since Max's intended goal was to create a "natural" dog, one that would be proficient at any task set for it (not the Best, just Proficient), be of a noble and assured temperament, possessed of courage and intelligence, great stamina and natural athleticism, I'd say most of today's GSD's still fit the bill.

Are there substandard examples? Sure. Most of them are from breeding for a particular trait to the exclusion of the total animal...whether it's in pursuit of the vaunted "flying trot"(which got us the over-angulated showlines), comformity to a "standard"(that is a reflection of fashion, not utility), or excess "drive"(which makes the dog unsuitable in most social settings). These and many other directed breeding programs interfer with the basic utlity of the GSD. They are not, however, the norm. Just the ones that get the most airplay. I would guess from the chat on these forums that most of you have well rounded and terrific animals, or you wouldn't own them or love them so much.

My husband thought I was crazy when I insisted on adopting a 1 1/2 old GSD NM who had been given absolutely no training prior to being fostered for 6 wks. My response had been, "Trust me, he'll be fine... after all, they're(GSDs) the Best Dogs EVER." It wasn't easy at first, But today, Teddy is exemplary of his breed. This spring, we added a 12 wk old GSD male puppy. Now, my husband cannot envision life without "the boys". As he said to me not too long ago, "The Baron sure knew what he was doing, they really are the Best Dogs Ever."


----------



## Freestep

I think the thing that would bother Max is the fact that there is a split between working and show lines. That, and the fact that SchH and other sport has become an end in itself.


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Here is a interesting video of the changes you see in the GSD from ten until now.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

DanielleOttoMom said:


> DEUTSCHER SHAFERHUND - 110 YEARS OF EVOLUTION-BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO - - YouTube
> 
> Here is a interesting video of the changes you see in the GSD from ten until now.


Think I like them until the 1970's!!!! It's interesting to see when they start to stand them in the 'stack' position. And how initially the dogs looked stacked compared to today...


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I know nothing about breeding but the 90 and the 200 dogs look like banana dogs . I like the dogs in the 50's and 60's and thru the 70's . Why the did it change so much ?It doesnt seem to follow what max set out as the breed standardor but then I dont understand standard probably. Isnt the GSD supposed to be rectangular. Those guys in 2000 look like triangles.


----------



## Konotashi

That video really makes me wonder why people (not GSD knowledgeable people) call THESE 'old' style GSDs.










Another thing - if GSDs were bred to start to look how they looked originally, would they win conformation titles? I'm going to guess no, unfortunately.


----------



## Franksmom

DanielleOttoMom said:


> DEUTSCHER SHAFERHUND - 110 YEARS OF EVOLUTION-BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO - - YouTube
> 
> Here is a interesting video of the changes you see in the GSD from ten until now.


 
I like the dogs in the video up till the 70's best, and looking at Frank he actually looks built more like the early dogs, except I know he's too tall. I guess that's why I get questions about him when he's out.


----------



## AgileGSD

"Dogs also exist within the cultural and economic conditions of their time period, which is why I don’t think we can recreate the St. John’s water dog and the Irish wolfhound probably isn’t the animal you want to use when you go to Alaska on a wolf hunt. The selective pressures that produced these animals disappear or are distorted once the exact conditions no longer exist.

I don’t think my romance and nostalgia would ever lead me to do what Julius Wipfel and his colleagues did._ (recreate a breed)_ After all, that project cost a lot of money and took decades to perfect.
​ But I can’t say I’m not influenced by these same forces.
​ Dog people wouldn’t be much without some romance and nostalgia.
​ It’s just got to be kept in perspective."


The Recreated Ancient Eurasian Spitz Retrieverman's Weblog


Times change, people change, culture changes and with all of that, our dogs change too. People involved in the breeds like to point fingers and blame certain groups for "ruining" their breed. But the truth is, their breed has been "ruined" by time. Very, very few breeds today are actually needed or used for their original purposes, largely because there just isn't a need for so many breeds for so few jobs. Historically, breeds were not as nearly widespread as they are today. Different regions had this or that dog for say herding, likely not called a breed name at all but a "sheepdog" (I talked to a guy from a small rural town in Hungary who refers to Pulik as simply "sheepdogs"). At a point, BCs put many local breeds out of work as they became more and more widely available. Which also had to do with times changing and farming methods and needs changing. Also the purposes for which dogs are kept has changed, as historically many people generally did not have the time or money to keep multiple large dogs around just for pets. Dogs offered companionship, no doubt but they were generally acquired for purposes. The origins of most herding breeds were with peasant farmers, who couldn't afford pet dogs but found a good herding dog or two to be invaluable.Now the majority of dogs are kept as pets and often by people who have no or limited access to the breed's intended job.



So all that said, it is unlikely we could ever know the original GSD. But we can see hints of him in our GSDs and in all GSDs because that is where our modern GSD came from. ​


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Konotashi said:


> That video really makes me wonder why people (not GSD knowledgeable people) call THESE 'old' style GSDs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing - if GSDs were bred to start to look how they looked originally, would they win conformation titles? I'm going to guess no, unfortunately.


That always confused me too. The advertising for 'Old Time GSD look' and always being 'big boned' cause the original dogs were anything but that.

I'm wondering if when we were tiny children (in the Olden Days) all GSD's SEEMED huge, so that's what the crap breeders are relying on. Our childhood memories :wild:


----------



## wolfstraum

Possibly the internet has much to do with the discussions of what "Max" wanted - these intellectual discussions rarely happen at training! And not that many breeds can trace their origins to the vision of one person....

One quote - which I will probably butcher - sums it up....

_Take this trouble for me, make sure my dog remains a working dog_

The show ring was not the venue that is discussed positively over and over again in the book....

The GSD is supposed to be a 'jack of all trades' working dog...family protector, guard/military/police dog, stock herding dog, seeing eye dog....

Breeding is a matter of priorities....we strive to produce dogs who meet the ideals of the standard....who have _functional structure - not fashionable_, nerves, ability to work in many areas, not extreme drive for one aspect and no balance or characteristics of other areas, and most of all - I don't like the phrase "improve the breed" - breeders must breed to maintain the integrity and the ideals of the standards....until that is done consistently by breeders world wide, who can improve? Yes, many must improve their own stock, many start with dogs with too many negative qualities - you must start with a dog as close to the ideal as possible or you are going backwards! Kennel blindness and fashion are too rampant and let's not get into politics! 

Lee


----------



## Jessiewessie99

DanielleOttoMom said:


> DEUTSCHER SHAFERHUND - 110 YEARS OF EVOLUTION-BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO - - YouTube
> 
> Here is a interesting video of the changes you see in the GSD from ten until now.


Alot of people have said Molly looks like some of the older dogs (40's and before that), aka "the original GSD". At first I couldn't see it, now I can.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I wish this forum had the 'kudo' button, where you can give someone a thumbs up.

What a good post and it applies to other domesticated animals as well.

I know people often quote about the German Shepherd being a working dog but I also find what Max von Stephanitz said about Horand telling too. As AgileGSD mentions below, IMHO, this quote fills out more of the hints and the internal spirit of the GSD and what Max von Stephanitz prized as well. 

"_Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."_

_~Captain von Stephanitz_

_(and finally, in blue, thank you Captain von Stephanitz this is why I am so in love with your German Shepherd Dog)_







AgileGSD said:


> "Dogs also exist within the cultural and economic conditions of their time period, which is why I don’t think we can recreate the St. John’s water dog and the Irish wolfhound probably isn’t the animal you want to use when you go to Alaska on a wolf hunt. The selective pressures that produced these animals disappear or are distorted once the exact conditions no longer exist.
> 
> I don’t think my romance and nostalgia would ever lead me to do what Julius Wipfel and his colleagues did._ (recreate a breed)_ After all, that project cost a lot of money and took decades to perfect.​
> 
> 
> But I can’t say I’m not influenced by these same forces.​
> 
> 
> 
> Dog people wouldn’t be much without some romance and nostalgia.​
> 
> 
> 
> It’s just got to be kept in perspective."​
> 
> 
> The Recreated Ancient Eurasian Spitz Retrieverman's Weblog​
> 
> Times change, people change, culture changes and with all of that, our dogs change too. People involved in the breeds like to point fingers and blame certain groups for "ruining" their breed. But the truth is, their breed has been "ruined" by time. Very, very few breeds today are actually needed or used for their original purposes, largely because there just isn't a need for so many breeds for so few jobs. Historically, breeds were not as nearly widespread as they are today. Different regions had this or that dog for say herding, likely not called a breed name at all but a "sheepdog" (I talked to a guy from a small rural town in Hungary who refers to Pulik as simply "sheepdogs"). At a point, BCs put many local breeds out of work as they became more and more widely available. Which also had to do with times changing and farming methods and needs changing. Also the purposes for which dogs are kept has changed, as historically many people generally did not have the time or money to keep multiple large dogs around just for pets. Dogs offered companionship, no doubt but they were generally acquired for purposes. The origins of most herding breeds were with peasant farmers, who couldn't afford pet dogs but found a good herding dog or two to be invaluable.Now the majority of dogs are kept as pets and often by people who have no or limited access to the breed's intended job.​
> 
> 
> So all that said, it is unlikely we could ever know the original GSD. But we can see hints of him in our GSDs and in all GSDs because that is where our modern GSD came from.​


----------



## danbibby

I wonder, was Max ever honorably restored as the founder of the SV after the way the nazis drove him to his death?


----------



## Packen

Konotashi said:


> Last night I got to thinking - would Max von Stephanitz be proud of what the German shepherd dog is today?


I think he has a smile on his face. There are awesome dogs being bred today that represent a GSD for what it is. Off course I am talking about a minority but it's always about quality not quantity.


----------



## Mrs.K

Konotashi said:


> That video really makes me wonder why people (not GSD knowledgeable people) call THESE 'old' style GSDs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing - if GSDs were bred to start to look how they looked originally, would they win conformation titles? I'm going to guess no, unfortunately.


In my book... that isn't a GSD... :help:


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> In my book... that isn't a GSD... :help:


 
Except for the sort of upright ears - looks more like a Sheepdog!

NOT anything close to a GSD!


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover

Just found this older thread. I have always picked "flat-backed" GSD, feeling the modern "frog look" was deformed-looking. The funny thing is that a lot of people have said, "Your dog isn't a purebred German Shepherd." Two of three I've had were papered. The one I got in the early 1980s was bred by a family that also was concerned about the increasing humpback look and very selectively bred into old German lines, in a day where that was not so "in." Bear was a bit large (my ex said 100 pounds, but when I think back I can't remember the vet ever saying he weighed more than 80 lbs.) but he lived to 14 with no hip problems whatsoever. Flat-backed Buddy at 14 currently has no joint problems except for a bit of stiffness when he gets up from a nap (and hey, so do I). My current Rey looks a lot like the video's very early German Shepherds.


----------



## Konotashi

Honestly, the flat backs don't bother me. I don't prefer them, but it doesn't bother me. 

THIS is what bothers me.

This dog has a championship conformation title under his belt. 









I hate hocks on the ground. 









If I remember correctly, this dog also has a championship title. (Conformation).


















ETA: Another thing that bothers me about 'flat-backed' GSDs is that American line breeders don't typically care about the working ability of the dog. If they're pretty, they're bred. Some don't care much about health either, and regard for temperament is placed behind beauty. Not something I agree with at all.


----------



## Castlemaid

Konotashi said:


> Honestly, the flat backs don't bother me. I don't prefer them, but it doesn't bother me.
> 
> THIS is what bothers me.
> 
> This dog has a championship conformation title under his belt.


Those pasterns are almost touching the ground!


----------



## Mrs.K

Konotashi said:


> Honestly, the flat backs don't bother me. I don't prefer them, but it doesn't bother me.
> 
> THIS is what bothers me.
> 
> This dog has a championship conformation title under his belt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate hocks on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, this dog also has a championship title. (Conformation).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETA: Another thing that bothers me about 'flat-backed' GSDs is that American line breeders don't typically care about the working ability of the dog. If they're pretty, they're bred. Some don't care much about health either, and regard for temperament is placed behind beauty. Not something I agree with at all.



UGH! :help: oke:
is it bad to feel sorry for those dogs?


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover

Konotashi said:


> ETA: Another thing that bothers me about 'flat-backed' GSDs is that American line breeders don't typically care about the working ability of the dog. If they're pretty, they're bred. Some don't care much about health either, and regard for temperament is placed behind beauty. Not something I agree with at all.


When I say "flat backs," I'm talking about the dogs that DON'T look all hunkered down like those do!


----------



## ladyfreckles

I like the flatbacks, but I don't agree that original is always better. I think the larger size of German Shepherds isn't a bad thing at all, to a degree. The only thing that really bugs me is the way they started dramatically sloping in the 1970s. Gross!


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Konotashi said:


> Last night I got to thinking - *would Max von Stephanitz be proud of what the German shepherd dog is today?*


Some-






but there are some yet that would make him darn proud!


----------



## Tim Connell

Freestep said:


> I think the thing that would bother Max is the fact that there is a split between working and show lines. That, and the fact that SchH and other sport has become an end in itself.



Agreed. Many of his writings discuss that first priority is working ability, and that his true desire was to always retain that ability.

Once people start breeding animals for appearance and type, often working ability falls by the wayside. Same thing happened to the Doberman, which is a magnificent breed as well, if you seek out the working lines.

I prefer a GSD that can truly work. I'd love to have some of those early dogs. Strangely, some of their body structure resembles the Malinois, maybe that's why I'm partial to them.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

IMO calling these dogs flatbacks is incorrect. Even calling dogs that appear flat backed at a glance while they are standing (usually working lines) is incorrect. Nearly every GSD has angulation, its just how much. Obviously dogs bred for working ability have far less than the American showline. 

But both extremes are incorrect. A GSD should be able to trot all day, and should not stand with their butt nearly dragging on the ground and hock sores because their hocks are touching the ground 3/4 of the time they are trotting. Nor should a GSD be wasting the power their rear legs are giving them, or using their entire front to pull their body forwards. 

I don't think Max would be happy with the extremes in all cases. The dogs who cannot settle in the home, the dogs who have extreme looks to cater to the new fad in the show ring, the extreme health issues. 

But in todays day, I have seen MANY dogs from all lines who are good representations of a GSD. 
I don't hold on to one type of GSD as being a perfect example. I think there is a golden middle and I admire the breeders who have created such dogs, and those who are lucky enough to own and train them. 

I think this breed has grown into something beautiful, you just have to know where to look


----------



## robk

Konotashi said:


> Last night I got to thinking - would Max von Stephanitz be proud of what the German shepherd dog is today?
> 
> I can honestly say that I don't know enough about the origins of the breed to say that he would or wouldn't, but here's a few things I was wondering.
> 
> What do you think he would think of how popular his breed is? The good and the bad? (BYBs, the good breeders, etc.) Do you think he would be upset that so many GSDs are simply 'pets' rather than out in the field?
> 
> What do you think he would think of the different lines?
> 
> What do you think would be his preferred line?
> 
> Do you think he'd like how the dogs today LOOK?
> 
> Anything else you guys would like to add? I didn't get much sleep last night; I know there was more I wanted to add to this....
> 
> Anyway - thoughts?


 
Yes, I think he would be proud. For all the problems in the breed, its still probably the most successful breed in the last 100 years. Sure there are many dogs with no working ability and there are major health issues in the breed, but most popular breeds have these same types of problems. In general, there is no other dog that I would rather have and if you want a working dog there are tons of great people breeding great dogs.


----------

