# Sibling Rivalry



## Sukkoi19 (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi there,

I have two brothers un-neutered now 15 months old, and now a 5 month old male GSD that I took in. My question concerns my two 15 month old GSDs.

The little terrors have been growling and argueing pretty much since Heinze came home from his elbow displasia surgery when he was 6 months. I'm not overly concerned about the behavior as I've dealt with it for quite a while now but I just want to find out if I should be changing my tactics.

Basicly Heinze and Sebastian are littermates, never separated except for Heinze's adventure at Iowa State University's Vetrinary Hospital for his elbow surgery and as such they are very close. But they argue constantly. Heinze is very possesive of tennis balls and Sebastian likes to steal them provoking growling snarling and barking from both parties. Sebastian feels that the upstairs is his domain and will growl and snarl at Heinze until he gets yelled at.

Now usually they will desist if I reprimand them, occassionaly it requires leaving the room and distracting them with something else. Every great once in awhile a stand-off ensues and really nothing besides physical intervention will stop the confrontation. I don't like to physically move one of the dogs as it usually causes an immediate escalation before cool down.

On very rare occasions perhaps when one dog is in a bad mood a full on fight will ensue. I have to say 99% of the time Sebastian is the aggressor and starts the fight. Usually Heinze immediatly gets the upper paw so to speak and does the dominant neck bite thing of whatever and ends the fight. Occasionally thought the fight will drag out long enough for me to try and break it up. I usually grab both dogs by the scruff and drag them apart and attempt to hold them there.

In all the fights they have had not one of them has ever been hurt in any way. They usually are much nicer to each other for awhile afterwards.

I try and be as attentative as possible but when it actually comes to blows it seems like it comes out of nowhere. No warning growls or barks just mild to wild attack. I would say they have a full on fight maybe once a month.

I have placed a video camera in the kitchen to observe their behavior when I am away and all they do is sleep and lick each others ears, so I'm thinking its got to be more related to who gets attention from the human and who doesn't.

Is this abnormal behavior? I try and tire them out as much as possible during the day with excersise and now with the 5 month old they get double excersise but it still doesn't curb all of their aggression. I continue to do basic obedience with them and they do alright with it. They usually are very good listeners will do what is asked of them. If its just something I have to deal with then fine I've gotten used to it and don't have a problem with it, but if this is indicative of more far reaching problems then I certainly would like to do something about.

For the record they can be rather aggressive around strange dogs. I spent quite a bit of time trying to socialize them as puppies only to have them remain friends with every single dog they met as puppies and aggressive with anything new. I usually have to spend a good 15 minutes with them on the leash getting them used to a new dog before its safe to let them approach. I would have though all the early socialization would have eliminated this issue.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is normal for some littermates to grow up together and not get along. I know of other similar situations. Because they are same age and close in personality and strenghts, they will always fight for position among the pack. 

There isn't much one can do but keep them seperate. As they get older, their fights will become more serious. They may get seriously hurt, and so could you trying to break up the fight. 

Use baby gates and crates to keep them apart. Rotate their time with you. Good luck!


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## Sukkoi19 (Oct 17, 2007)

Hmmm. More serious as they get older. How nice. I did use the crate and baby gate approach previoulsy but they were both destroyed. 

The crates were nice $170 metal examples that they both bent the doors off of. I tried reinforcing them with 1/4" bar stock welded to the hinge support but this only slowed them down in their thirst for destruction.

My steel baby gate was physically ripped out of the wall. In any case I would have to get one at least 5' in height as they can standing leap over my 4' fence with is really about 4' 9".

They are inseparable for the most part, walking together, playing, wrestling, watching TV, eating. Its just that at the same time they like to growl and fight. 

Thank you for the advice.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have two male siblings that I raised together since they were 8 weeks old (they never really bonded strongly with each other, they both prefer me) and have observed the same behavior patterns you are describing. I did a lot of training with them and left a trainer that pushed me to give up one of them. There is a lot of rivalry between them around people, mainly for attantion. I manage them carefully and diffuse situations before they start to escalate. Their main competition is who jumps on mom first when she wakes up in the morning (and the first one then growls at the other - "mom belongs to me"). They "talk" to each other quite a bit. I have not taped them, but I think they are fine with each other when I am gone. I never had a major fight between them in spite of the constant arguing. One thing I do: I always make sure that each of them has a cuz ball in his mouth before they go into the yard to play. They cannot bite each other without dropping the cuz ball and the cuz they adore. Luckily the dominant one is too smart to fight with the alpha wannabe over toys and stuff, he just gives it up.

I am not saying it is easy to manage it but I did much better than the trainers said I would. I cannot bring a third dog into the mix though.


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## Sukkoi19 (Oct 17, 2007)

Your situation is pretty close to mine I think. I do pretty much have to monitor them constantly to head off situations that I deem annoying more than anything. I haven't so far had any real fear that they are going to kill each other if left to their own devices but the growling and barking does get very distracting if left undealt with.

The addition of the 5 month old to the group has had almost no effect either way that I can tell. He is of European lines and is very well bred so is very aggressive himself at this young age which to my amazement the other two tolerate very well. They put up with his growly puppy like behavior very well, and Heinze has rediscovered the puppy within himself.

The only issue I can see is that the puppy is very bad about stealing toys and bones and for the most part they put up with it. Every once in awhile he gets snapped at or growled at though.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Sukkoi19,

I'm in a similar situation, I have two boys of the same father, different mothers, and they are three months apart in age. My boys differ from yours in the fact that they adore one another. They have never seriously fought, but they playfight all the time. 

I have a few questions to ask, so I understand and help you better.

You say you exercise these dogs a lot, how do you exercise, how often? 

How often do you train them? Do you train obedience commands, house manners, sport?

How much one on one time do they get with you?

How much of the time are they together, all the time?

Do you practice NILIF (nothing in life is free) or practice a pack mentality, where you are clearly the leader?

If you answer these questions, I can you help you better.


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## Sukkoi19 (Oct 17, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008You say you exercise these dogs a lot, how do you exercise, how often?


I have about a .5 acre fenced in. Usually we play catch with them running out like wide receivers and catching the ball. I usually try to do about 2 hours worth of this in intervals during the day. In addition they have their own free time in the yard where they play and I can observe them while doing other things. I also try to walk them 2 miles or so 2-3 times a week. 

They probably spend 6 hours or so outside with access to the house at all times just playing with each other or playing catch with me.



> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008How often do you train them? Do you train obedience commands, house manners, sport?


15-30 minutes a day, just going over basic sit, down, stay and recall stuff. Nothing complicated. I've given up on trying to keep Sebastian from jumping on visitors as nothing seems to work. I just usually stay close at hand and intercept his jumps to keep people from being injured or annoyed.



> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008How much one on one time do they get with you?


It just depends on their moods really. Sebastian and the puppy are much needier than Heinze and as such they have more of a desire to be with me. Usually Sebastian and Spartan the puppy will hang out in whatever room I am in and Heinze will watch TV by himself. 

I do go out of my way to see Heinze and pay attention to him but he just seems more aloof. Don't get me wrong he likes attention but he seems to like to do his own thing more often than not. I'm talking about rest time here not play time as he is very oriented when it comes to training or ball catching.



> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008How much of the time are they together, all the time?


Pretty much all the time. They get very upset when they are apart. When I have to take one to the Vet the other will sit and howl like a wolf until the other returns. Then growl and sniff when they come into contact.



> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008Do you practice NILIF (nothing in life is free) or practice a pack mentality, where you are clearly the leader?


Probably more of a pack mentality. I try and maintain a strong will over them and for the most part I think it pays off. They listen and do what they are told. I can head off fights if I catch them quick enough. It just every once in awhile it escalates to quickly or I miss the signs something big is brewing. Its just the growling and snarling and territorial like behavior is much more difficult to control. They will stop when told too then move to another room and start up again. Nothing I do lasts. I stop it right now and 10 minutes later their mad about something else. Usually its just posturing. Tails straight back, hackles up, on their tiptoes, staring each other down and growling low. Very intimidating looking and sounding but usually nothing comes of it. A human can walk right up to them and start petting them or talking to them and they will divide their time between growling at each other and wagging their tails and paying attention to the human.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Alright, so it's very clear that you exercise them plenty. However, I think it might help if you tried to challenge them mentally with obedience commands, or tricks. Physically they need stimulation, but mentally, they need it too. 

It sounds to me like they have bonded more to each other than to you. Training is a great way to bond with the dog. I know what you mean when you say Heinze is more aloof and wants to do his own thing during rest time. My Zeus is the same way. However, I too have to work on establishing a bond with him like I have with Apollo. 

Another way to bond with him would be just to lay with him on the sofa, petting him while he relaxes. While it's okay for Heinze to not be as affectionate as the other dogs, he needs to bond with you like Sebastian. If you build a bond with each of these dogs seperately, they will listen better. 

For the fighting, I wouldn't let that fly, at all. The only fighting that occurs here is playfighting. If it's territorial, hackles up, I think that it should be stopped. Personally, I think it should stop before getting to that point, but it's human to miss certain signs. So, whoever instigates it gets a time out so to speak. Either in his crate until he relaxes, or a sit-stay away from the activity. He will learn quickly if done consistently.


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## Sukkoi19 (Oct 17, 2007)

Hmmm. Okay I'll give that a shot. Thanks for the advice.


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## rad16 (Oct 29, 2013)

*two female gsd fight*

I have two female GSD's. One if 2 and the other is 1yr 10months. We have the 2yr old since she was a pup and we adopted her sister 4 months ago. They got along great! A few growls and a few small fights but nothing dramatic. I now have them seperated in crates. We had a male very submissive 8yr old dog come stay with us, he has been here a month now, byt within that time my females got more and more aggressive toward one another. Then, it happened, they got in the worst fight i have ever since, nothing i did could break them apart. when a lady came by after hearing me screaming they quickly looked over and thats when i grabbed one quickly and seperated them. Their was blood EVERYWHERE! I had to rush them to the vets, lucky they were fine however one lost a tooth and had drains in her leg with stictches and the others face had to be all stitched up. I have never EVER seen them like this before...we are doing some intense training with them right now, and we have a very close eye on them. Can this be fixed and back to how they were? The male dog is also leaving at the end of the week with his owner, could he have been an issue? or is it just them maturing and needed a heirachy?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Males fight for breeding rights. Females fight for breathing rights.


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## rad16 (Oct 29, 2013)

So what should I do? They were better then okay before, played on the floor together with no dominancy. Now this...? Is it no fixable?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I suggest you begin your own thread. This will let other members who have females help you out. This thread is pretty old, so it might be skipped. By opening your own thread, it will bring in those who can help you with females better than I can. I have a houseful of males.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I have female litter mates, 3+ yrs old now and they do well together. We did notice a change when we brought our male home. Zoey got along great with him while Tuke does not want to be bothered by him, it changed the whole dynamic. Still no fights and funny how Tuke will do great with him if Zoey is off at training or up in the woods with me, kind of like twos company, threes a crowd I guess. Once they fight like that it may be crate and rotate or maybe, if your lucky, things will settle down once the visitor has left.


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