# Brief use of shock collar for cat chasing?



## beib

We have a 3.5 month old female puppy, living with us (and an 8-yo male cat) for the past 5-6 weeks now. We have tried many things on our own: very careful slow introduction of puppy to cat (did all the smell, food exercises, also did sound desensitizing), baby gates, escape routines and high cat trees, walking puppy twice/day to burn energy, at least 1 hr of training daily with treats, teaching "leave it", "stay". Puppy is doing well overall, except she keeps wanting to chase the cat. "leave it" and "stay" works with food but not cat. 

We were advised by our vet and a trainer to have closely supervised interaction, where the cat would hopefully "correct" the puppy by clawing her. Our cat has managed to do that many times (I don't think the cat really used his claw very harshly), but didn't seem to have made any difference to how puppy would want to chase. These interactions sometimes end up in loud barking (when cat hisses and swats). 

We just had 2 sessions with a trainer today, who was concerned about our cat's safety after seeing puppy's behaviours. She initially thought it would work out over time, but felt that there was a lot of prey drive in the puppy that something needs to be done before she grows bigger.

The plan was: 
1. Briefly use shock collar so puppy learns to avoid.
2. Pair loud noise (banging two pot lids) for future reminder.
3. Reinforce ignoring cat.

So step 1 and 2 have occurred over 2 sessions (1 in the morning the other afternoon). By the end of it (5 - 6 shocks and 2 loud bangs in total; puppy completely ignored the first 3 shocks), puppy was able to stay in her bed and not chase when the cat runs across the floor. Puppy seemed in good mood at the end of the session and got praises and treats for leaving the cat alone.

Now that I have been reading more about e-collar after these sessions, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information. Some sources say that it can be very effective in addressing high prey drive; some also say that there could be unexpected consequences. 

Now that this has already been done, my questions is:
1. Would such "brief" e-collar correction paired with other reminders and reinforcement have lasting effects? I read that e-collar training may take repetition.
2. What else can we do going forward after what's been attempted?

Thank you!


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## Muskeg

One word... bonker.

No, in all seriousness, two sessions probably aren't going to fix this behavior completely. I'd recommend pairing the punishment with a marker word "no". That way you can transition to just the marker word fairly quickly. I personally don't like just slapping an e-collar on a PUPPY and using it for one thing- I'd prefer more hands on corrections if you are going that route with a pup (leash for example). 

The goal is to never allow the pup to chase the cat, because that is self re-enforcing and fun for the pup even if he gets scratched. The chase itself becomes a huge reward. You need to make sure he isn't allowed to practice chasing. Leash him, separate him, whatever you need to do to make sure he isn't allowed to chase. 

I have and do use e-collars on pups over 6 months of age for proofing commands, and to stop prey chasing, but when I am training my dogs the correction is usually (exception below) well understood by the dog- that is they know which behavior they need to stop doing, and what behavior to do instead, and the corrections are paired with a verbal command and/or tone on the collar. 

At times I have simply used e-collar to stop a behavior that could be deadly for the dog, and then worked on teaching other behaviors. This is because the drive to, in my case, chase and "kill" cars (you'd have to see it to understand) was just so great no learning could happen until that behavior was stopped. 

But "no chase" still needs to be re-enforced and repeated over time. Maybe not at such a high level, but at a minimum paired with a marker word, and correction. You can certainly reward good behavior, particularly in a young pup, but you don't need to do this too often if you are consistent with punishing or stopping the chasing behavior. 

You can get temporary avoidance pretty easily using any positive punishment. Which is what you are seeing now in your pup. The bonker videos are one (not great) example of this applied. Cesar Millan puts the dog into temporary avoidance with a poke and a "shttt" sound (his negative marker). I am only mentioning Cesar because almost everyone has caught a Dog Whisperer episode at some point and seen this in action. While he doesn't call it marker training, the sound and poke ARE marker training as applied. And his timing is usually very good. 

And, I'd be more in support of using a poke or a leash correction on such a young puppy vs. an e-collar. If done correctly when the pup is young you should be able to stop this chasing behavior and any killing/biting behavior that would follow. 

But... another thing to consider is that as he grows up, this dog may become a cat killer. I'm sure people with cats will chime in, hopefully with success stories. But..... cat runs across the yard, dog gets triggered, human is in the shower and not there to stop it, and you have a dead cat. I know people who have been there, and it's just sad all around. This is why I don't keep cats and dogs together. Just not something I want to risk.


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## wolfstraum

I have a 4 month old puppy who is obsessed with my cat....the cat is dog friendly, and tolerates the pup overall, but the pup is OBNOXIOUS.....I have tried everything but an e-collar at this point.....she will try for the cat, then run to me and sit quietly, obediently....but still is aware of where the cat is sitting....at times she will sit beside the cat staring - waiting, of course, for movement so that she can chase. the two things I will use an e-collar for correction are cat chasing and horse chasing....either of these can cause a pup to lose their home or life.

the e-collar will be my final resource in a few months if she is not more amenable to their co-existence...her mother, father and maternal grandmother are all fine with cats and small dogs (she does play with the terriers at my office/barn)....several of her littermates live fine with cats - but this one is just obsessed.

I think cat obsession is one of the hardest things to solve. 

Lee


Lee


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## Solamar

We have a 9 month old GSD, a 17 year old male indoor cat (de-clawed) and 9 chickens (was 10).

From day 1 the GSD wanted to chase the cat and wrap her mouth over the cat. The old cat was not at all impressed, never injured the cat or showed any aggressive signs other than wanting to play. Lots of time with a leash on for corrections, separating them, and yes, an occasional smack on the butt if the GSD wouldn't "leave it". Six months later things are much better, 90% of the time the GSD will ignore the cat. But if the cat jumps off something or runs by the dog (rare with a 17 yo cat) we still have to correct. Hopeful as the GSD ages things will continue to improve.

Chickens - 

Brought home 10 day old chicks, at some point during the first week there was a "miscommunication" between my two sons and the coop/brooder got left open and the dog got let out:surprise:. I was outside and wondered why the chicks were being so loud, found the puppy leaning over the brooder licking all the chicks. she must have picked a couple up as I found two peeping under a nearby bush. Thought the chicks were all dead, but they slowly all got up, dried off and were un-injured.

I spent every evening with the GSD on leash interacting with the chicks. Excitement level almost always off the chart. After a couple months the chicks were old enough to free-range our yard. Anther miscommunication left the GSD out with the chickens and my son found her sitting with a dead chicken. She was not trying to eat it, the bird looked unharmed, probably played a bit too rough with it.

Spoke with our trainer and made a plan to use an e-collar. Over a couple days put on the e-collar and play ball or go for a walk, take off e-collar. No association with what the e-collar was. three days later, set the e-collar quite high and let the GSD and chickens out. Immediate chase, correction, yelp, chase, correction, yelp, turn around and get away from the chickens.

It's been about a month now and every evening the GSD goes out with the chickens wearing her e-collar. It's a beautiful thing to see, she really seems to be quite intent on herding the chickens, I honestly don't think she has any desire to kill them. But every evening (still) she gets a couple corrections for being too aggressive bossing the chickens around, the e-collar is not enough of a correction to overcome her desire to herd. Occasionally I will let her out with the chickens without the e-collar on, but really have to be watching closely. Someday I hope they will co-exist peacefully...

Sorry, long rambling story, but my experience has been time and consistent training is what it takes. An e-collar is a great tool, but not an easy fix cure-all. Also, hopefully someone with way more experience than I can help describe differences between prey drive and herding drive. I think that's an important difference.


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## Apex1

I have an almost 7 month old cat annoyer; I have 4 indoor/outdoor cats. The cats have corrected him, but they won’t use theirclaws. They often run from him which he loves and will even try to make them run by barking at them. He has managed to chase a handful of times off leash outside. 
We have simply put just managed him to this point. We have taught the word NO, but just until recently he seemed to lack any ability to control his impulses. Possibly much of that is due to me being inexperienced. We like another poster stated in your other thread rotate the animals inside and outside and depending on the pup’s energy level we may have a cat or two inside. He is always leashed inside. There is much more to it than that.....but you are specifically asking about e collars. 
Over the last few weeks we have seen improvement due to a few things, I am looking to speed it up and make it more reliable. 


I have read that an e collar should not be used prior to 6months of age. I have had a hard time finding a trainer that I trust. 


I very recently found this site/person, and did as much research as possible and have decided to put my faith in his method. It seems to me to be the most clear humane way I could accomplish my goals. My e collar is on its way. 


Maybe if you decide it is for you, you can come up with a management plan that allows for a good foundation for when your pup has matured more and is ready for the e collar. I am happy to share what I have learned about management if you are interested. This site is and others are full of information that you can fit to make your situation work for you. 
http://www.loucastle.com/


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## car2ner

Some people have GSDs who treat the cat like part of the pack. Some people have GSDs who tolerate the cat because the Head of the Household said to. Some people have GSDs who are too rough with the cat and some hate cats. 

My boy, when he was a little pup, met the cat. The cat had lived with our previous dog and they were buddies. The kitty saw the pup, who was curious about her and the cat hissed. My pup went into "so you wanna play rough?". We tried correcting the pup for hassling the cat. We tried rewarding quiet behavior around the cat. But in the end the cat, who was originally our son's cat, moved away to live with our son and daughter-in-law. The cat is now a buddy to their young husky mix. 
It didn't help that my mom, who lived in a mom-in-law suite at our house, had a tom cat who instigated trouble. 

I hope you have the kind of GSD that learns that the cat is part of the family pack.


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## Baillif

I read the title of this post too fast and at first thought you were going to put an e collar on a cat. Was hoping for video of that.


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## Sunsilver

Baillif said:


> I read the title of this post too fast and at first thought you were going to put an e collar on a cat. Was hoping for video of that.


ROTFLOL! That's how I read it, too! 

I adopted a 3 year old male GSD when I already had a cat. I forgot the dog had an abrasion on his neck, so the vet had removed his collar when I took him in for his initial assessment, vaccination and bath.

He took off after the cat, and I had no way of restraining him. He actually grabbed the cat in his mouth at least twice. Eventually, the poor kitty wound up hanging from the Venetian blinds in the living room.

I put the dog outside, but the cat had disappeared. Eventually, he slowly made his way down from the top bookshelf in my office, where he'd been hiding behind some books.

A socialization period followed, where the dog was taught that the cat was NOT to be chased. Eventually, they became fast friends, and would play together. The cat liked to play with bag ties, and I've rarely seen anything so funny in my life as this big, male GSD holding a bag tie in his mouth, and shoving it in the cat's face, trying to get him to play!

One night, the cat slipped out the door while I was taking the garbage out. I found his body on the side of the road the next morning. :crying:

My dog went into a depression. He was definitely subdued, and started carrying bits of my dirty laundry around in his mouth, something he'd never done before.

I got him a female GSD pup to play with, and they became best friends, until he passed at 14 years of age.

I also adopted another kitten, and the two of them got along just great. They would sometimes share a bed.


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## Hellish

I too picked up an E-collar with the intent of reinforcing commands to get him to leave our old dog alone. My 5 month old GSD is super confident and will not be deterred by the old dog correcting him.. MUST PLAY.. I have not yet whipped out said collar because I am still educating myself on theory and methodology. 

The pup is integrating better with 2 of the 3 cats than he is with the dog. These 2 cats think they are dogs. They hop over the barrier gate to interact with the pup on the regular and we supervise because if they run, he chases. Interactions are mostly respectful, and inquisitive. But the old dog is also very protective of HIS cats and he wants to insert himself from his side of the barrier to break up the interaction. We can get the pup to sometimes go about his business and ignore the cats if they are within reach but are not seeking him out. As the weeks go by, it improves slowly.


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## Galathiel

I have a Persian who is definitely on the small side (6 lbs). When I brought the pup home, I was determined that they would get along OR ELSE. I was not going to tolerate any harrassing of the cat. We used baby gates and I still use them occasionally even today, even though Varik is 4. I like being able to segregate the house if I'm off somewhere; I don't think it's necessary now, but still do it .. just in case.

I did not leave it for my cat to have to defend itself. I took care of it myself. I also worked on a lot of impulse games with the pup. However, he learned quickly that wrath would descend if he harrassed the cat. He didn't get to do chasing because I had the baby gate up all the time when he was little. Too much focusing on the cat would mean an interruption and redirection, ignoring me to move towards the cat would be a correction. I tried to never let the interaction get to the point that he actually mouthed or touched the cat. That would have meant a Come to Jesus meetng. Now, even when the cat has the crazies he won't run after you. He does whimper, though.


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## beib

Update: 3 days since shock collar. 

Puppy was due for her final vaccination, and vet suggested increasing the number of positive interactions (i.e., "exposure"). We have been doing a few brief sessions of exposure when both puppy and cat are fed their favourite treats in relatively close distance. A few times puppy wanted to chase, but was distracted by treats. Once I was able to stand between puppy and the cat, with a very firm "No, on your bed", puppy went back to her crate. 

We have been practicing "stay" and "leave it" during each meal. Will keep updating how it's going!


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## islanddog

Galathiel said:


> I have a Persian who is definitely on the small side (6 lbs). * When I brought the pup home, I was determined that they would get along OR ELSE. I was not going to tolerate any harrassing of the cat*. We used baby gates and I still use them occasionally even today, even though Varik is 4. I like being able to segregate the house if I'm off somewhere; I don't think it's necessary now, but still do it .. just in case.
> *
> I did not leave it for my cat to have to defend itself. I took care of it myself*. I also worked on a lot of impulse games with the pup. However, he learned quickly that wrath would descend if he harrassed the cat. He didn't get to do chasing because I had the baby gate up all the time when he was little. Too much focusing on the cat would mean an interruption and redirection, ignoring me to move towards the cat would be a correction. I tried to never let the interaction get to the point that he actually mouthed or touched the cat. That would have meant a Come to Jesus meetng. Now, even when the cat has the crazies he won't run after you. He does whimper, though.


Basically, this is what I did that worked. Gsd's are social, so I don't discount attitude, and that's why I bolded some sentences. But the nuts n bolts of this post are are equally important.
Great stuff.


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## beib

Update: 1 week after the brief e-collar session.

Puppy seems to have improved substantially in her chasing urge. She used to have an unbreakable stare when the cat comes around (no amount of treats or distraction would divert her attention). Now her "looks" (and not quite "stare") at the cat, and we are able to use "No kittie", "No", and "stay" to hold her in place. A few times when we said "no kittie", she looked sheepish and would wag her tail and come to us for pets. We will keep rewarding good behaviours. 

Fingers crossed that this lasts!


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## beib

Update: 6 weeks after brief shock collar session.

Puppy has consistently behaved well around the cat. The brief shock collar session seemed to have switched off her chase mode when it comes to the cat. There were brief moments of curiosity when she wanted to close to the cat and sniff, we can easily tell her off. We have removed all barriers in the house for weeks already and no longer have to stress when the two are in the same space. Sometimes they both settle on the couch with us for a cuddle. We really didn't think it was possible, but the puppy and the cat are really getting along now! Here is a photo:


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## az_girl

This is great to hear and see. Our10 week old is obsessed w the Cats and I’m concerned. Here’s hoping we can get it corrected w a brief e collar intro (although stinks we have to wait till 6 months). How’s it going now, 2 months later?


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## voodoolamb

az_girl said:


> This is great to hear and see. Our10 week old is obsessed w the Cats and I’m concerned. Here’s hoping we can get it corrected w a brief e collar intro (although stinks we have to wait till 6 months). How’s it going now, 2 months later?


No need to wait till 6 months to fix this. In fact you SHOULDN'T wait till then. (6 months can still be kinda early for an e collar anyways)

You don't need an e collar to stop cat chasing.


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## beib

A quick update on cat chasing after 1 year. The two brief e colar sessions basically fixed the problem. We have had peace in the house ever since. Sometimes if Mya (14 months now) is overly excited, she would want to play with the cat and sniff him, but we can quite easily tell her off by a verbal command. For safety (just in case), we would never let them share a space unless we are home. We quite trust that Mya won't hurt the cat. Although this never happened, we are wary that she could do something to annoy the cat (e.g., get too close or licks) and get scratched, which may trigger her to defend herself and start a fight.


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## Hellish

That is great news Beib!

We are still monitoring closely because his demeanor is completely different for one of the three cats. He still fixates on her. He wants to romp with the other two, but he gives that one the stare down and fairly stalks her. His head drops and he moves low and slow. They have high places and hidey holes all over the house but they all sidle up to him and rub on him and make themselves available. She will just not stay away from him - what was that from another poster about an e-collar for cats?? She instigates. And then squawks when he noses her and follows her. He calls off just fine, but it is more vigilance than we enjoy. Play and food take a higher priority over cat herding. Obedience training and impulse control exercises continue. He is about the same age as your girl.


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## Nurse Bishop

The OPs dog looks to be a Malinois. Is this so?


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## beib

One of Mya's great-grandparents is Malinois, all other ancestors are GSD. She has a very light coat, and it cracks me up when we walk in the street and people ask, rather alarmingly, whether she is a Dingo (we live in Australia). Here is a grown-up photo of her.


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## Felafufu

Life has been pretty miserable since my new puppy arrived a month ago, as regards the cat. The stress has just sucked all fun out of having a dog in house again. Hoping to fix this soon so we can all start to relax a bit.


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## Nurse Bishop

A Dingo. She does look like a Dingo  A Dingo would take care of the cat, no problem would remain


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## GSDchoice

At my friend's house, the cat is king! 

I saw the cat laying in the dog bed, and her dog was nowhere to be seen. 
When I asked her about it, she said, "Oh, he won't lay in his bed until the cat leaves." 
Dog = 50 lb chow/shepherd mix


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## beib

Felafufu said:


> Life has been pretty miserable since my new puppy arrived a month ago, as regards the cat. The stress has just sucked all fun out of having a dog in house again. Hoping to fix this soon so we can all start to relax a bit.


Sorry to hear, but there is hope! Thinking about the month when we struggled with cat-chasing problem, it was probably one of the most stressful times I have experienced. Looking at how Mya used to be reactive to the cat, we really didn't think it was going to change. But it did! Find a good trainer and get help, it can be resolved pretty quickly with persistence.


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## klaramore

I know this is an old post, but I was hoping someone might be able to assist me lol. I read a lot of these were with puppies and an older cat, has anyone had any success stories with an older dog and new kitten? I have a 7 y/o female GSD who has never been around cats, she’s never chased them or anything while on walks and does good to ignore other dogs. She plays fine with other big dogs as well. 

We found a deserted kitten (probably 5-6 weeks old) and brought her home, we did the normal introductions and kept them separate and then began with letting them watch each other through a gate. My GSD doesn’t really “chase” the kitten, but watches her really intently. While I was holding the kitten, she did lick her a few times and sorta nipped her a bit (no blood or anything). When she watches her, she wags her tail and will occasionally paw at her. 

I’ve just recently started putting a shock collar on her while I let them share the same space to try and correct behaviors as far as pawing or hovering too much. My GSD listens very well and knows all commands. I’ve read several articles on dog/cat interaction and I still can’t tell if my GSD is just curious and wanting to play or sees the kitten as a threat. She doesn’t grown at the cat nor does any of her hairs stand up. I give her a warning vibration and if she doesn’t correct it (which she normally does) she will get a small shock. When she does a good behavior I reward her with words and touching (she won’t eat the treat I try and give her)

Any success stories or tips that might help?


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## Frisco19

Great thread, thought I would share where I am at with Lily - a 5 year old Bengal and Frisco - now 13 weeks, brought him home at 8 weeks. Hopefully you have some observations or comments.

Lily is a sweet social indoor cat with full claws. Her world has certainly been rocked these past 5 weeks. This is a cat that can't wait for you to come home to hangout with you and sit with you in the living room and kitchen. Trouble is, these are the rooms we gated off for Frisco. Lily is super interested in Frisco. She wants to be around him and is curious. The first night Frisco was home, she licked his nose through the gate. He licked her back. But he wants to chase her and thinks she is a puppy or at least someone to play with. She does NOT like this. He has gotten her a few times now of recent. I kept them apart for the first three weeks mostly for fear of Frisco getting his eyes or nose scratched. She has yet to scratch him. He has "caught" her 5 or 6 times now and pounces on her and mouths her. He has not bit hard. When he corners her, she drops to her back which is what cats do when they are preparing for battle - four paw weapons and a mouth. However, even when he has had his mouth over her belly, she has yet to scratch, she hisses. The craziest part is that even after I separate them, she doesn't go away. She moves but is always watching to see what we are doing with him. She is not afraid of him which is mind boggling. I think she actually enjoys teasing him when he is put behind the gate or in a crate. I think she wants to play too, but like a cat, not a puppy.

We have tried all the usual stuff - food, leash, etc. He just wants to chase and pounce on her. They stare at each other really locked in for a while and even though he "stays" it lasts a minute at the most because she moves away and he explodes. I really don't think he wants to hurt her, but I am afraid to take that chance. What if she does start fighting back and he gets angry or more aggressive? I see him grabbing her and shaking her like one of his toys. One chomp and she's a dead cat.

I also worry about how he is going to be as an adult. Will he hate her? I am not a cat person. Came with the girlfriend, but if I had to have a cat, this is the cat I would choose.


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## astrovan2487

I successfully introduced a new kitten to live with my high prey, pretty intense 2 y/o GSD. Kitten was maybe about 4 weeks old, very sick and abandoned by its mom. For about a month I did not allow the dog close enough to touch the cat but constantly close enough to see each other. Slowly started letting them together supervised when dog had a toy in her mouth. 

The kitten immediately bonded to the dog and he loves that dog like no one else, sleep together, groom each other, play all the time. They do play pretty rough but the cat always instigates it and seems to enjoy it. If my dog gets too over excited she will self regulate herself by keeping a toy in her mouth and chomp on that instead of the cat. 

They are completely safe alone together in the house, they only play fight when im around. Definitely can be done


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