# HELP: Looking for Sable GSD Breeder!



## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Hi GSD Fans!

*I'm looking for a lighter Gold/Tan slash Silver/Light short-haired Male Sable GSD (preferably show line?) I don't need a dog of military/bomb-squad caliber that's constantly searching for squirrels rather a loyal companion that'll accompany me on endless adventures*

I'll add context, please don't try and dissuade my search as I'm here for help on breeder info!

I'm a 31-year old working male that's single, living out of SF (small apartment, yes)
Don't worry about pet-friendly apts/SF restricted breeds (ESA papers)
No kids, no other pets. Had a house chow chow in college and a family-raised White GSD back in high school. (not my first GSD)
Am able to spend at minimum 1.5 hours walking it around the city, daily.. on average 2-2.5/day on weekdays
Weekends, i'll run a few errands and then spend the majority of the afternoon exploring, lounging, venturing
I believe in discipline and rigor, training will be lifelong, and I plan to train off & on-leash
I've scoured the internet for the past month, compiling a prescriptive list of breeders contact information. I have multiple threads running with them and have been reading up on everything GSD

It's a lot to manage and there's an endless supply of information. Ideally, I'd like to pick one up in August/Sept. Stole two pictures off of the internet, first is a lighter/silver sable.. second a darker gold/tan sable.

Two perfect pictures! Please help, thank you in advance!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sable pups are like fun, furry little puzzles that reveal themselves bit by bit. They change as they grow. General advice is to focus on everything but color when searching for a pup. Temperament and health need to take priority.
I believe your area has several rescues and realistically if you are seeking a specific look they are a better bet. You can avoid all the puppy craziness and get exactly the dog you are looking for.
Show lines produce fewer sables the working lines, so that may make finding one trickier. 
@dogfaeries I believe mentioned a breeder that does have sables but I have no clue where.
The other issue is going to be that you want one basically now. Most good breeders have waiting lists. You may need to find a breeder you like and just get on a wait list. 
What you want is doable, it just may take time.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Sable pups are like fun, furry little puzzles that reveal themselves bit by bit. They change as they grow. General advice is to focus on everything but color when searching for a pup. Temperament and health need to take priority.
> I believe your area has several rescues and realistically if you are seeking a specific look they are a better bet. You can avoid all the puppy craziness and get exactly the dog you are looking for.
> Show lines produce fewer sables the working lines, so that may make finding one trickier.
> @dogfaeries I believe mentioned a breeder that does have sables but I have no clue where.
> ...


I’d like to take one home as soon as I’m able to, heard that’s anywhere between 10-12 weeks, is this accurate?

also, timeline can be aug/sept.. I’m open to flying across the country to pick one up.

with all the GSD breeders across the country, is there a realistic timeframe I should be shooting for?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Well first we need to find you a breeder. Then we can figure out timelines. The German show lines are unlikely to produce sables, I figured you were talking American show lines? Is there a reason for wanting SL or just because everyone says working lines can't be pets?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hey! My breeder friends in western Oklahoma tend to have a lot of sables.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Well first we need to find you a breeder. Then we can figure out timelines. The German show lines are unlikely to produce sables, I figured you were talking American show lines? Is there a reason for wanting SL or just because everyone says working lines can't be pets?


Can working lines be relaxed pets? I have a smaller apartment in SF and can take my dog on walks and to the park. Will continue to train but Protection? Highly unlikely.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

dogfaeries said:


> Hey! My breeder friends in western Oklahoma tend to have a lot of sables.


Can you send me their contact information? I’ll happily reach out


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Of course, working lines can be great pets given the right amount of mental and physical stimulation as well as training. My girl is a working line and she's great


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> Can working lines be relaxed pets? I have a smaller apartment in SF and can take my dog on walks and to the park. Will continue to train but Protection? Highly unlikely.


Either would be a good fit, IF you spend the time finding the right breeder, put the work in as a pup and ensure that the dogs needs are met.
But, we have found a breeder who has sables. So let's start there.
Something I did want to mention because you brought it up and life happens. Do ensure that you expose a pup to children. Far to many dogs are surrendered because children came along.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

BKGSD said:


> I’d like to take one home as soon as I’m able to, heard that’s anywhere between 10-12 weeks, is this accurate?
> 
> also, timeline can be aug/sept.. I’m open to flying across the country to pick one up.
> 
> with all the GSD breeders across the country, is there a realistic timeframe I should be shooting for?


Are you saying you want to bring a puppy home in 10-12 weeks, or that you’ve heard that’s the typical age a puppy comes home at? It’s honestly pretty rare to find a reputable breeder and bring home a puppy within a few months. It can happen, like if a breeder has someone back out last minute or if they end up with a bigger litter than they anticipated, but again, that’s rare. It’s much more common to be waiting 6+ months for a puppy, especially now since everyone and their mother wants a puppy.

A working line dog absolutely can be a great pet. They don’t need you to work them in protection. I have my “first” shepherd pup right now, and he’s a working line. I will not be doing any kind of bite sports with him. He’s amazing in the house so long as his needs are met, and honestly, I wouldn’t worry about not having a yard. I have a fenced yard, but my dog is literally never out there alone, and he has less than zero interest in playing by himself. If we’re outside, I’m engaging with him. You can get this by just going to the park or going for a walk. My backyard is pretty useless to me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

American show lines have lighter sables. 

IMO, 1.5 miles of "walking" is not exercise for a shepherd. They need mental stimulation and engagement. If you can't provide that, perhaps you should consider a different breed.

From your statements, I think you need to research the breed more and find clubs (either IPO or AKC) to be around the dogs and see for yourself what they require. It's June - everyone and their brother is looking for puppies right now. I would be surprised if you can get one in August/Sept. That means the litter is currently bred and everyone wants a puppy right now. Breeders should not be breeding working lines for "relaxed pets". These are not supposed to be low drive couch potatoes. Good Luck in your search..


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Pytheis said:


> Are you saying you want to bring a puppy home in 10-12 weeks, or that you’ve heard that’s the typical age a puppy comes home at? It’s honestly pretty rare to find a reputable breeder and bring home a puppy within a few months. It can happen, like if a breeder has someone back out last minute or if they end up with a bigger litter than they anticipated, but again, that’s rare. It’s much more common to be waiting 6+ months for a puppy, especially now since everyone and their mother wants a puppy.
> 
> A working line dog absolutely can be a great pet. They don’t need you to work them in protection. I have my “first” shepherd pup right now, and he’s a working line. I will not be doing any kind of bite sports with him. He’s amazing in the house so long as his needs are met, and honestly, I wouldn’t worry about not having a yard. I have a fenced yard, but my dog is literally never out there alone, and he has less than zero interest in playing by himself. If we’re outside, I’m engaging with him. You can get this by just going to the park or going for a walk. My backyard is pretty useless to me.


I appreciate you sharing this, I've done a tone of research on it and have spoken with multiple breeders who have mentioned the same thing. As long as they're taken out regularly and exercised physically and mentally, the size of the home is for the most-part irrelevant.

I'm saying I've heard that the typical age upon receipt is around 10-12 weeks of age. Like the majority of others out there, I'd like to take it home as soon as possible and ideally the end of August/Sept works perfectly.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

NadDog24 said:


> Of course, working lines can be great pets given the right amount of mental and physical stimulation as well as training. My girl is a working line and she's great



Would love if you can expand on the right amount of mental and physical stimulation, what does the average amount of interaction look like at 6 months, 1-2 years, 3-5+ years?


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> American show lines have lighter sables.
> 
> IMO, 1.5 miles of "walking" is not exercise for a shepherd. They need mental stimulation and engagement. If you can't provide that, perhaps you should consider a different breed.
> 
> From your statements, I think you need to research the breed more and find clubs (either IPO or AKC) to be around the dogs and see for yourself what they require. It's June - everyone and their brother is looking for puppies right now. I would be surprised if you can get one in August/Sept. That means the litter is currently bred and everyone wants a puppy right now. Breeders should not be breeding working lines for "relaxed pets". These are not supposed to be low drive couch potatoes. Good Luck in your search..


Cool. Thanks.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

BKGSD said:


> Would love if you can expand on the right amount of mental and physical stimulation, what does the average amount of interaction look like at 6 months, 1-2 years, 3-5+ years?


She gets two 1 hour walks and about 20 minutes of playtime in the yard with her tug. She's 7 months right now and gets lots of exercise both mentally and physically because we work on obedience and tricks throughout the day.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

I've reached out to a multitude of different breeders across the country to scope out their upcoming litters and am also willing to have it shipped or fly cross-country to pick up my new buddy, if it makes better sense.

Is there a master list of approved breeders available to the members of this website? There are so many to choose from online, searching online might not be the best route as I continue to browse and the list continues to grow (introducing the dilemma of the paradox of choice), and lastly/most importantly I really am not sure what to look out for.

Obviously temperament, however some posts/articles say working dogs are suitable for family/pet needs. Health (DM, hips, elbows, eyes), bloodline, no BYB's, etc?

I've compiled a list and have emailed/called the below breeders:
Hayes Haus
True Kaus Kennels
Kreative Kennels
K9 Kraftwerk
Fernbrook GSD
Bellevue GSD
West German Shepherd
Wolfgang haus
Grothaus k9
Wendelin Tinka
Vom Banack
Stillwaters in OK

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks for everyones responsiveness!~


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Almost all of those are WL breeders. I could be wrong but Stillwaters is the breeder I was thinking of. 
@dogfaeries ?
Some of those breeders are going to produce just too much dog I suspect. I will let others weigh in, I don't know enough.
Activity levels differ from dog to dog, but in general the first two years are going to be the worst.
Puppies to about 4 months require supervision constantly, from 4-8 months you will see increased activity and a curious mind that will drive you crazy if not directed, 8-16 months see emerging personality and challenging of rules and boundaries. This is the general time I start any serious training. 
From 16-24 months is the time a lot of owners get into trouble as maturity brings breed traits to the fore. If your foundation was shaky this is where it all falls down.
An hour twice a day is workable but understand that it is training, exercise and play that are needed. So not just walking around.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think anyone said a working line is not a suitable pet. But they should not be low drive, couch potatoes content with a walk around town.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Almost all of those are WL breeders. I could be wrong but Stillwaters is the breeder I was thinking of.
> @dogfaeries ?
> Some of those breeders are going to produce just too much dog I suspect. I will let others weigh in, I don't know enough.
> Activity levels differ from dog to dog, but in general the first two years are going to be the worst.
> ...


Appreciate the insight here..

Yes, I immediately DM'd @dogfaeries and they mentioned Stillwaters + provided contact info! Thank you both of you.

Appreciate the timeline, its very helpful. If I'm taking them home around 11 weeks, based on the above I'd need constant supervision for the next month or two - is that fair? I'd have a 2-3 hour gap a few days a week where I'd need to run errands. Grocery store, etc. assume I could crate them for a bit to secure the necessities?

Does this work through the 4-8, 6-16 month timeframe?

I consider training to be lifelong and would invest an hour or so at night with mental stimulation, commands, toys, etc. on top of the normal walking/dog park


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Young dogs do best with short and frequent training. So think in terms of 5-10 minutes at a time.
Crate training is necessary and yes puppy goes to crate when alone.
Also know that any forced exercise should be minimal for the first year or so. That means anything puppy does on its own is good, anything you make it do is limited.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Young dogs do best with short and frequent training. So think in terms of 5-10 minutes at a time.
> Crate training is necessary and yes puppy goes to crate when alone.
> Also know that any forced exercise should be minimal for the first year or so. That means anything puppy does on its own is good, anything you make it do is limited.


Numerous articles have mentioned limited exercise with puppies, would love to get your thoughts on this. I read an article explaining that puppies should walk 1 hour for every month they're old. No real jumping, hiking, strenuous activity.. mostly playing and chew toys. Concrete walking not preferred over grass walking, but I do live in the city so will avoid where I can but not completely.

Thoughts? Appreciate the responsiveness


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Actually, it is 5 minutes per month of age. One hour of walking for a 3 month old pup is way to much....I wouldn't consider a mile until close to a year old....


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I keep puppy walks to minimum. So a block here, a few blocks there. Mostly to work on leash manners or exposure to the world. Once shots are complete hanging out in parks and open areas, watching kids play, traffic go by. Construction areas and road crews are awesome to watch. Chasing balls on a long line climbing on rocks and concrete walls, always safely. Splashing and playing in water, etc.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Do be mindful of the temperature of concrete and pavement!


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## ChickiefromTN (Jun 16, 2020)

My pups are working lines, primarily Czech. My girl will be a year old next week. You could not try to limit that girls exercising and jumping if you made it your full time job. At 8 and 9 weeks old she would launch herself across the room from the couch to the loveseat. It happens so fast you cant stop her. At her age now when shes excited she can jump over me and I'm 5'10". That's not a running jump either, that's from just standing next to me. If I take her for a 5 minute walk in the woods she probably runs 3 miles, back and forth and around. I'm telling you this because you really want to work with a breeder that will make sure you get the type of dog you are looking for or will tell you no, their pups are not suitable. My girl would die of boredom if she was not out playing ball, protecting her area, practicing 1/2 mile to 1 mile tracks, etc, all day, every day. Rain, shine or cold. My boy that has a very similar pedigree is much more "people" focused and would honestly be happy doing anything I'm doing at whatever pace I wanted to do it!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@BKGSD do you know or have you spoken to anyone that’s raised a GSD in the city (The City)... it’s not the easiest environment and simple things like going for a walk or to the park can be a lot more challenging than one would expect. The dog culture here can be very frustrating....and you’re generally one frenchie or doodle away from a behavioral problem. See if you can connect with one of the trainers at Koru... just a neutral recommendation, as I know many of their trainers and clientele have GSD. Last I knew they held group classes at Lands End.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Do be mindful of the temperature of concrete and pavement!


Fortunately SF never gets warm lol, that won't ever be an issue. We're by the water and its always breezy and a cold 60-65 at best...


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

ChickiefromTN said:


> My pups are working lines, primarily Czech. My girl will be a year old next week. You could not try to limit that girls exercising and jumping if you made it your full time job. At 8 and 9 weeks old she would launch herself across the room from the couch to the loveseat. It happens so fast you cant stop her. At her age now when shes excited she can jump over me and I'm 5'10". That's not a running jump either, that's from just standing next to me. If I take her for a 5 minute walk in the woods she probably runs 3 miles, back and forth and around. I'm telling you this because you really want to work with a breeder that will make sure you get the type of dog you are looking for or will tell you no, their pups are not suitable. My girl would die of boredom if she was not out playing ball, protecting her area, practicing 1/2 mile to 1 mile tracks, etc, all day, every day. Rain, shine or cold. My boy that has a very similar pedigree is much more "people" focused and would honestly be happy doing anything I'm doing at whatever pace I wanted to do it!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Can you send me your breeder information so I ensure I don't proceed forward? Also, your buddys breeder since it sounds like it would be a better match?

I appreciate it!


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> @BKGSD do you know or have you spoken to anyone that’s raised a GSD in the city (The City)... it’s not the easiest environment and simple things like going for a walk or to the park can be a lot more challenging than one would expect. The dog culture here can be very frustrating....and you’re generally one frenchie or doodle away from a behavioral problem. See if you can connect with one of the trainers at Koru... just a neutral recommendation, as I know many of their trainers and clientele have GSD. Last I knew they held group classes at Lands End.



Just left them a VM, no answer. I plan on socializing it as much as possible and consider training a lifelong endeavor. Frankly, I won't tolerate anything less than perfect social behavior and would outline the time necessary to achieve it.

Do you live in SF as well?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BKGSD said:


> Just left them a VM, no answer. I plan on socializing it as much as possible and consider training a lifelong endeavor*. Frankly, I won't tolerate anything less than perfect social behavior *and would outline the time necessary to achieve it.


Please define "perfect social behavior" as you think it pertains to the German Shepherd breed.

I would like to point out to you that you can not change genetics no matter what time and training you put in. You can shape it and you can manage it, but you can not change it. It appears you are a little militant in your thought processes and that will lead to nothing but conflict with a German Shepherd. These are living, breathing, thinking creatures and statements such as "I won't tolerate anything less than perfect" are worrisome to say the least with a mindset that will do nothing but set the dog up for failure.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@mycobraracr isn’t this near you? You might have some inputs. Is there a dog club he can work with nearby? That could be a solution to the exercise and mental stimulation problem.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> @mycobraracr isn’t this near you? You might have some inputs. Is there a dog club he can work with nearby? That could be a solution to the exercise and mental stimulation problem.


I spoke with the GSD clubs in Sac, San Jose, and Diablo Valley yesterday - they're forwarding me a list of breeders to check out. @mycobraracr if you're in SF as well, would love to hear your tips and tricks for city-life with a GSD!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> @mycobraracr isn’t this near you? You might have some inputs. Is there a dog club he can work with nearby? That could be a solution to the exercise and mental stimulation problem.


Nope! No one else is allowed to talk to T17 until I get a puppy. Lol. It's a ransom deal!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BKGSD said:


> Just left them a VM, no answer. I plan on socializing it as much as possible and consider training a lifelong endeavor. *Frankly, I won't tolerate anything less than perfect social behavior and would outline the time necessary to achieve it.*
> 
> Do you live in SF as well?


I get it... but it’s far from a perfect or linear experience, and the one step forward two steps back can be trying, especially when it seems like the rest of the world is there to complicate things further. I got my first GSD of my own while living in Hollywood... for example, when dealing with things like excitement around other dogs it’ll often be mentioned to redirect, turn the other way, create distance, etc. That’s not always possible.... at times you’ll encounter more dogs in 1 block than some ppl encounter with their dog in weeks.

...to be clear, not discouraging at all, it’s just some things to think about and plan around.

I live in the east bay, but work frequently in SF.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BKGSD said:


> Hi GSD Fans!
> 
> *I'm looking for a lighter Gold/Tan slash Silver/Light short-haired Male Sable GSD (preferably show line?) I don't need a dog of military/bomb-squad caliber that's constantly searching for squirrels rather a loyal companion that'll accompany me on endless adventures*
> 
> ...


First blue, not sure why you think those dogs are squirrel crazy. It has been years since I saw my oldest dog fuss about a squirrel up a tree and it was with my encouragement. I have yet to see my other dogs chase a squirrel and we do a lot of off leash hiking. 

Second blue, since you want a more mellow, less energetic, softer dog, why do you feel the need to beat it down with discipline and obedience for its lifetime? It's a sentient living animal, not a machine. Without further information, if I were a breeder, I wouldn't even sell you a puppy. 

The one thing that I think you should be worried about in the city is your dog barking. A lot of GSDs like to bark... a lot. It is self rewarding and can be difficult to break and neighbors don't tend to like nuisance barking especially when the dog has a loud bark.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> I get it... but it’s far from a perfect or linear experience, and the one step forward two steps back can be trying, especially when it seems like the rest of the world is there to complicate things further. I got my first GSD of my own while living in Hollywood... for example, when dealing with things like excitement around other dogs it’ll often be mentioned to redirect, turn the other way, create distance, etc. That’s not always possible.... at times you’ll encounter more dogs in 1 block than some ppl encounter with their dog in weeks.
> 
> ...to be clear, not discouraging at all, it’s just some things to think about and plan around.
> 
> I live in the east bay, but work frequently in SF.



Interesting, I plan on heavy socialization in the beginning to ensure behavior is up to par. There are a handful of beautiful GSD's that roam the neighborhoods, I always see them when I'm driving and often times within a 1-2 block radius of my apartment. I always try to flag them down to chat but they're involved in side conversations.

I'll get em eventually! I also plan on moving next month, likely to the dogpatch as there's no real need to be in the city anytime soon (thanks COVID!)


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Nope! No one else is allowed to talk to T17 until I get a puppy. Lol. It's a ransom deal!


What's T17? I assume a highly-desired breeder? lol


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BKGSD said:


> Interesting, I plan on heavy socialization in the beginning to ensure behavior is up to par. There are a handful of beautiful GSD's that roam the neighborhoods, I always see them when I'm driving and often times within a 1-2 block radius of my apartment. I always try to flag them down to chat but they're involved in side conversations.
> 
> I'll get em eventually! I also plan on moving next month, likely to the dogpatch as there's no real need to be in the city anytime soon (thanks COVID!)


“heavy socialization” can backfire, depending on your understanding of it. There is a thread somewhere here - rethinking popular socialization. I’ll look for it if no one else beats me to it.
Found it...


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> “heavy socialization” can backfire, depending on your understanding of it. There is a thread somewhere here - rethinking popular socialization. I’ll look for it if no one else beats me to it.
> Found it...


Super interesting... Thanks so much!

Seems like the takeaway's are:

Puppies at dog-parks aren't recommended, rather a variety of experiences (sights, sounds, brief interactions)
Socialization to occur with adult, behaved dogs
Would the later be running into other adult dogs on walks, verbal confirmation that they're okay, then proceed to let them sniff it out for a few seconds?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BKGSD said:


> Would the later be running into other adult dogs on walks, verbal confirmation that they're okay, then proceed to let them sniff it out for a few seconds?


Ha, no... thats the reason I made it a point to reference sf dog culture. I don’t trust the majority of other people’s assessments of their own dogs unfortunately. As a general rule, I don’t allow my dog to interact with any dog I’m not familiar with.... the exception is off leash hikes but those interactions are brief because I call him and keep things moving (we’re able to keep things moving because he has a foundation in me being more interesting and rewarding than other dogs). Fortunately Keystone is a very tolerant and relatively neutral dog - his tolerance and neutrality didn’t come from play dates or dog parks or greeting strange dogs on walks.

But you got the first part right! I think it helps if people replace the word socialization with exposure or acclimate.... because the idea is teaching a dog to be confident and behave appropriately in a social setting. Basically meaning society. For example, I don’t have be outgoing and friendly in order to know that I shouldn’t scream at, spit on, inappropriately touch or run towards/away from others people (normal circumstances). I can also confidently walk down the street unfazed by children at play, cars driving by, lawns being mowed or uneven surfaces. I sit in chairs at restaurants, I don’t stand on tables. And so on and so one. You’re basically introducing your puppy to various real life situations but also remaining age appropriate and understanding early signs of stress. There is valuing in being able to just watch the world and not always feel like you have to engage in it.

Edit: as far as dog parks - it can be a highly debated topic, but what I will say is that I’ve never taken a dog into a park that a) isn’t big enough to defend itself, b) doesn’t have a solid recall.....of my “dog park dogs” (meaning a young inexperienced me throwing a ball or just hanging out watching dogs play), they outgrew dog parks by the age of 2 or 3yrs. Either because of negative experiences or maturity, or the combo - they just became less tolerant. The park that I’ll take my current dog to albeit rarely (think: crissy field, pt Isabel).... it works because of the design/layout of these rather untraditional dog parks and because his introduction to these parks were for specific training /engagement exercises so he never saw it as a free for all to blow off his owner to hang with friends.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Ha, no... thats the reason I made it a point to reference sf dog culture. I don’t trust the majority of other people’s assessments of their own dogs unfortunately. As a general rule, I don’t allow my dog to interact with any dog I’m not familiar with.... the exception is off leash hikes but those interactions are brief because I call him and keep things moving (we’re able to keep things moving because he has a foundation in me being more interesting and rewarding than other dogs). Fortunately Keystone is a very tolerant and relatively neutral dog - his tolerance and neutrality didn’t come from play dates or dog parks or greeting strange dogs on walks.
> 
> But you got the first part right! I think it helps if people replace the word socialization with exposure or acclimate.... because the idea is teaching a dog to be confident and behave appropriately in a social setting. Basically meaning society. For example, I don’t have be outgoing and friendly in order to know that I shouldn’t scream at, spit on, inappropriately touch or run towards/away from others people (normal circumstances). I can also confidently walk down the street unfazed by children at play, cars driving by, lawns being mowed or uneven surfaces. I sit in chairs at restaurants, I don’t stand on tables. And so on and so one. You’re basically introducing your puppy to various real life situations but also remaining age appropriate and understanding early signs of stress. There is valuing in being able to just watch the world and not always feel like you have to engage in it.



I could talk about this all day... seems like,

Most don't take their dog out & about until 4months, before that it's only to potty
6-12months is outside, exposing to sights and sounds.. if they're interested in the environment do you just ignore and keep moving?
Exposure to adult dogs you know the temperament of, only. I'd love to take my (future) dog to the dog park - would love for him to be social however respond and bring it back to 1:1 him and I when asked... So, never dog parks? Or only after 1 year with training/focus on reeling back it and focusing on command?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I added a note about dog parks to my last post. Your answers to the above questions will vary largely. Too many factors at play.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The exposure / socialization window closes @ 4 months. After that, it can still be done but not without a lot more work and with inferior results.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> I could talk about this all day... seems like,
> 
> Most don't take their dog out & about until 4months, before that it's only to potty
> 6-12months is outside, exposing to sights and sounds.. if they're interested in the environment do you just ignore and keep moving?
> Exposure to adult dogs you know the temperament of, only. I'd love to take my (future) dog to the dog park - would love for him to be social however respond and bring it back to 1:1 him and I when asked... So, never dog parks? Or only after 1 year with training/focus on reeling back it and focusing on command?


I have dragged mature dogs out of puppy farms that have never been outside their cages and they just take to life like it's nothing. No issues with dogs, noise, people, traffic, just all good. I have had others that hid under furniture for weeks. My current dog was a bottle baby and out of necessity went everywhere with me and met dozens of people, some of whom needed to handle feedings for me. She displayed largely feral behavior right from the outset and to this day is wary of people. Some dogs are by nature more socially stable and need minimal work to socialize, others would prefer to stay largely in their own turf and need much more exposure. Few German Shepherds are social butterflies although it happens. Most fall somewhere in the middle in that they are fine with people but really would keep to their own if given the option. Some just flat out don't want strangers approaching them. 
Whatever a dogs nature is you are always safer to respect it.
Socialization is a misnomer, it's all about exposure nothing to do with letting people maul your dog.
I don't expose pups to dogs I don't know period. Owners are clueless. Dog parks are a whole argument unto themselves. It's a hard no for me, others swear by them.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I have dragged mature dogs out of puppy farms that have never been outside their cages and they just take to life like it's nothing. No issues with dogs, noise, people, traffic, just all good. I have had others that hid under furniture for weeks. My current dog was a bottle baby and out of necessity went everywhere with me and met dozens of people, some of whom needed to handle feedings for me. She displayed largely feral behavior right from the outset and to this day is wary of people. Some dogs are by nature more socially stable and need minimal work to socialize, others would prefer to stay largely in their own turf and need much more exposure. Few German Shepherds are social butterflies although it happens. Most fall somewhere in the middle in that they are fine with people but really would keep to their own if given the option. Some just flat out don't want strangers approaching them.
> Whatever a dogs nature is you are always safer to respect it.
> Socialization is a misnomer, it's all about exposure nothing to do with letting people maul your dog.
> I don't expose pups to dogs I don't know period. Owners are clueless. Dog parks are a whole argument unto themselves. It's a hard no for me, others swear by them.


You mention “pups” not being exposed to dogs you don’t know. What age do you expose them to other dogs when, let’s say walking down the street?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Walking down the street? I am really not ok with any interaction. I don't know the person, I don't know the dog. I believe in setting dogs up to succeed not fail and the bottom line for me is that most dog owners are clueless. 
Example: Shadow has been attacked several times. I don't like her near other dogs. I normal either give them space and keep walking or sit her a safe distance away and have her focus on me. I cannot count the number of times owners have watched me pull Shadow aside and sit her and promptly let their dogs rush her with a wave and "he's friendly".
My dogs interact with dogs I know, whose owners I know.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

My dogs are never allowed to meet strange dogs. When we’re on a walk, I do what Sabi’s Mom does and step way off to let the other dog pass. Or I’ll change my route if possible. Lately though, since I’m working on Archer’s heel and reactivity, I put him in a heel and walk past the other dog far enough away that neither dog can reach, even if they both go to the end of their leashes. I heavily reward him.

Because Archer was charged and attacked so many times by out of control dogs with idiot owners, his response now is to immediately attack any dog that runs up to him. That is a direct result of people that don’t know their dogs and let their mutts ruin mine. They always tell me their dogs are friendly. My response is, “Mine is not, and I will not be paying a single medical bill. Get your dog.”

I suggest you don’t let your dog, no matter his age, interact with dogs you don’t know because, well, you know don’t what will happen. Not worth it. And why would you want your dog to think that walks are for greeting other dogs and ignoring you? I want my walk with my boy to be about us bonding, not him dragging me over to visit every other dog that exists.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Thanks @Sabis mom and @Pytheis, appreciate the context here.

Raising our family White GSD, we lived in a suburban neighborhood and rarely did we run into others walking on sidewalks let alone dogs. Parks were large.. and had two or three kids running around at most. 

In that situation, it was much easier to avoid others. In the city, we'd be constantly passing by others, there are dogs everywhere (SF is extremely dog-friendly).. if you're walking in these conditions, you continue to stay focused with your dog and ignore others?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Yes. And I have gotten fairly rude about it over the years. Lol. Any part of you that touches me you don't get back now extends to my dog. I have zero issues telling people where to go and how to get there, with some colorful suggestions on mode of transport.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I think one of the cool things that will likely come from this conversation is the shift in your lens now as you observe other dogs and their owners while you’re out....start thinking about how you’d handle or fit into those situations.

a couple days ago I picked up coffee and pulled over near a walking/bike path for a bit while I drank it. I watched a woman with a husky puppy (10ish weeks) and another with a shiba inu... both dogs were pulling and straining towards each other, both women paused, I couldn’t hear the conversation but there were smiles and nods (I’m sure determining that the dogs were both “friendly”) and it was clear that letting the dogs meet (rewarding their inappropriate behavior) was “easier” than managing them or giving each other space.... they get closer and immediately the shiba went after the puppy. The women pulled their dogs apart but remained in conversation, I rolled the window down and could hear the shiba owner explain that her dog had been attacked several times and is now insecure around other dogs... more smiling and nods, some nervous laughter while the shiba is still keyed on the puppy. To my surprise, they try again, a repeat of before, only now the leashes were tangled and the altercation lasted longer... in the end, the shiba was picked up but continuing to bark, the husky owner, visibly upset, is looking over her puppy then takes its harness off I presume to check for injuries and the puppy (terrified) bolts... thankfully she was able to catch him and at this point I’m out of my car - I asked why they’d do this (any of it) to their dogs... the shiba owner thought that because it was a puppy her dog would be fine and it’d help rebuild her dogs confidence.... the husky owner thought it’d just be an adult dog “teaching” the puppy some manners.

Poor judgement and flawed thinking on both sides....and potentially a set back for both dogs. A mature dog with a solid temperament would likely not be phased... but it’ll take awhile to get there, not to mention, it could have all be avoided by the dogs having proper leash manners to begin with.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

I've narrowed it down to a handful of breeders and want to move forward and narrow it down. I'm receiving a lot of responses requesting deposits as litters are filling up. To avoid multiple deposits across a handful of breeders, it would be helpful if you could see if I'm missing anything below:

Temperament seems to be most important. Looking for American show-line as a pet. Nothing military/police caliber/working line
Important to vet the type of dog that I'm looking for, eg: relaxed at home, not vocal/city/apt living, activity level of multiple walks per day + mental stimulation, companion and not search and rescue - to compare if parents have produced similar litters aligning with needs in the past
Breeder must show proof of eldows/hip/DM/eye health scans of parents
Puppies brought home around the 9 week mark with shots, will need rabies within the first month after. Careful to socialize/expose, limit to clean areas of the cities, no cats, rats, sketchy areas of town, other dogs, etc
Since i'm interested in the light/silver/gray sable or gold/tan sable (both as light as possible, not the darker black sables) as long as pictures of both parents are similar to what I'm interested in, i'm doing the best I can. no coat colors are guaranteed here, its about maximizing chances.. litter could have some black, some darker/lighter, etc.. its really a mixed bag from my understanding?

Is there anything else that I'm missing? I appreciate everyone here that has provided helpful input!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Deposits are usually non refundable. Pick a breeder.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Looks like a good list. 
You might also want to consider asking the breeder if they have successfully placed dogs in similar situations to yours: big city, apartment life.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

8 weeks is standard... sometimes circumstances can result in a pup going home at 7 weeks... 9-12 weeks is great if some sort of foundation training / socialization is happening.

As far as color... sable pups will generally end up resembling one of their parents, give for take a shade. Have not seen two lighter color sables produce a dark or “black” sable... so I think you’re safe there.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Fodder said:


> The women pulled their dogs apart but remained in conversation, I rolled the window down and could hear the shiba owner explain that her dog had been attacked several times and is now insecure around other dogs... more smiling and nods, some nervous laughter while the shiba is still keyed on the puppy.


Oh man - Neb got attacked by a Golden Retriever off-leash (on a path that is off-leash, but it's not like you HAVE to have your dog off-leash). The owner was like 'Oh wow, he's only done that a few times before'. Did I ever have some choice words for her! Neb doesn't take lip though, the Golden very quickly backed away.

Agis is mixed. I find he tends to get dogs reacting to him (well, little ones generally) but it clearly upsets him (and we may be across the street) so I find I have to be careful with HIS reactions now. He's generally friendly, of course, but I know when he's been reacted to a bunch I need to keep an eye on him. He's both bull-headed and sensitive. 

We live in an apartment, so there's a certain amount of closeness that happens (say the lobby). Not to mention the busyness outside, which is worse with COVID because people are sick of being indoors, AND are home and deciding to explore the world (which generally they wouldn't do). But it's perfectly possible to raise a pup in a city, just be aware. 

If it helps in terms of temperament - Neb has always been calm (unless attacked; he may not start fights, but he finishes them) and it's helped because while he has had dogs go after him he still isn't reactive. A stable dog will go a long way to ensuring that despite interactions, the dog remains happy/neutral.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I live in downtown. There are other dogs everywhere. My dogs aren’t allowed to interact with unknown dogs from strangers. I limit the people who are allowed to interact with them too, especially the puppy. There are people who get offended or try to insist. That typically ends if my temper comes out, but I prefer to avoid that because it also affects the dogs mood. Most people ask and are understanding. Keeping the puppy away is more restrain and redirect from other dogs. The adult would receive a correction for trying to meet another dog without permission. My walks are about two blocks to a decent sized park wit plenty of space, though the dogs still stay on leash over there. The biggest concern for me is avoiding off leash dogs. Those I would actively try to move away from. The other day I had my adult dog in a down while the puppy circled to poop. A guy with a Golden who was straining to come see the puppy started walking towards us. After I told him no, he dropped the leash and said”oops, he got loose.” The Golden cane dashing over to the puppy. Bear can be reactive on his own, with the puppy there he charged the golden and tried to kill him. I could still hold him back with the leash, but if he had actually been able to grab the other dog, I would have had to make some tough choices. The rabies shot typically happens at 16 weeks. The biggest worry for having a puppy in the city is parvo. When you talk to your breeder, you should ask the feasibility of the puppy staying that extra month to ensure it’s fully vaccinated. They may want more, but it will help you avoid losing your dog the way I lost my first puppy.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I live in downtown. There are other dogs everywhere. My dogs aren’t allowed to interact with unknown dogs from strangers. I limit the people who are allowed to interact with them too, especially the puppy. There are people who get offended or try to insist. That typically ends if my temper comes out, but I prefer to avoid that because it also affects the dogs mood. Most people ask and are understanding. Keeping the puppy away is more restrain and redirect from other dogs. The adult would receive a correction for trying to meet another dog without permission. My walks are about two blocks to a decent sized park wit plenty of space, though the dogs still stay on leash over there. The biggest concern for me is avoiding off leash dogs. Those I would actively try to move away from. The other day I had my adult dog in a down while the puppy circled to poop. A guy with a Golden who was straining to come see the puppy started walking towards us. After I told him no, he dropped the leash and said”oops, he got loose.” The Golden cane dashing over to the puppy. Bear can be reactive on his own, with the puppy there he charged the golden and tried to kill him. I could still hold him back with the leash, but if he had actually been able to grab the other dog, I would have had to make some tough choices. The rabies shot typically happens at 16 weeks. The biggest worry for having a puppy in the city is parvo. When you talk to your breeder, you should ask the feasibility of the puppy staying that extra month to ensure it’s fully vaccinated. They may want more, but it will help you avoid losing your dog the way I lost my first puppy.


super helpful, appreciate you being so transparent here as some of these incidents don't sound that fun.. if you don't mind me asking, are you in a smaller unit in the city as well? 600-750 sq ft kind of ordeal?


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

jarn said:


> Oh man - Neb got attacked by a Golden Retriever off-leash (on a path that is off-leash, but it's not like you HAVE to have your dog off-leash). The owner was like 'Oh wow, he's only done that a few times before'. Did I ever have some choice words for her! Neb doesn't take lip though, the Golden very quickly backed away.
> 
> Agis is mixed. I find he tends to get dogs reacting to him (well, little ones generally) but it clearly upsets him (and we may be across the street) so I find I have to be careful with HIS reactions now. He's generally friendly, of course, but I know when he's been reacted to a bunch I need to keep an eye on him. He's both bull-headed and sensitive.
> 
> ...


im totally fine with walking my dog and having it just be us.. rewarding for good behavior, training, eye to eye contact.. ignoring while exposing to others..

glad you brought up the element of common areas as it was a huge question-mark for me. assuming you just ignore as best as you can? a brief greet here or there and then its on to the next?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Indoor space has never been a huge issue for me... I got my first GSD while living in a 350sq ft efficiency apt. My current house is 700sq ft and until recently I had 2 GSD here. It’s a nice size for us.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> Looks like a good list.
> You might also want to consider asking the breeder if they have successfully placed dogs in similar situations to yours: big city, apartment life.



I've had 2+ hours worth of conversations via phone with the handful that I'm narrowing it down to. Most are so passionate about GSDs.. (bless their souls) that they ramble on and on and I get a ton of different answers during storytime.

"I raise perfect temperament! oh there was that one time one from the litter was raised and brought back and snapped at the other one.. only happens once in a while though"
"All of my dogs are show-line. oh a few litters down the road they went to the police unit"

etc etc.

are there any open-ended questions that have helped others search receive the deeper level of insight? a better way to ask this might be, if you could only ask 5-8 questions from your breeder, which ones would they be?


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Indoor space has never been a huge issue for me... I got my first GSD while living in a 350sq ft efficiency apt. My current house is 700sq ft and until recently I had 2 GSD here. It’s a nice size for us.



love this! gives me more hope!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

For the lobby, there's space by the elevators to back up, so we do that, though even with best laid plans, sometimes there are encounters. The vestibules are trickier so we try to stand to one side, or if we go the door and see someone's coming out we back away and let them go out (or in). 

It's totally doable.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> super helpful, appreciate you being so transparent here as some of these incidents don't sound that fun.. if you don't mind me asking, are you in a smaller unit in the city as well? 600-750 sq ft kind of ordeal?


I had a Great Dane (the dog that ate the concrete mix) in two relatively small,400sq ft, apartments. Totally doable. Dog crates make awesome end tables. Seriously though inside space was never an issue in any place with any dog. In my 700 sq ft little house I varied between 6 and 9 dogs at a time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I thought you had decided on Stillwaters?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BKGSD said:


> super helpful, appreciate you being so transparent here as some of these incidents don't sound that fun.. if you don't mind me asking, are you in a smaller unit in the city as well? 600-750 sq ft kind of ordeal?


Yup, a little under 700. It’s perfectly fine with one dog. He usually hangout on my balcony at home and his kennel is out of the way. Fitting kennels in took a little rearranging, but it’s fine. The space is only an issue when I have more than 3 or 4 people over, but that’s nothing to do with the dogs.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Fodder said:


> @BKGSD do you know or have you spoken to anyone that’s raised a GSD in the city (The City)... it’s not the easiest environment and simple things like going for a walk or to the park can be a lot more challenging than one would expect. The dog culture here can be very frustrating....and you’re generally one frenchie or doodle away from a behavioral problem. See if you can connect with one of the trainers at Koru... just a neutral recommendation, as I know many of their trainers and clientele have GSD. Last I knew they held group classes at Lands End.



I am a trainer for Koru K9. I can tell you, the city is a VERY hard place to raise a GSD. Or any dog for that matter lol. 

I have not read all the replies, so I may be a little late. Before I'd even consider color, temperament and nerve would be my main priority in that environment. Mental stimulation is key! Also searching the city for quiet spots to be able to work your dog alone and away from the chaos. Living in an apartment, keep in mind, puppies make noise. Especially during crate training and things like that. I have a 7 month old doberman here now because the owner was about to be evicted due to the puppy making noise. So just other things to keep in mind.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

mycobraracr said:


> I am a trainer for Koru K9. I can tell you, the city is a VERY hard place to raise a GSD. Or any dog for that matter lol.
> 
> I have not read all the replies, so I may be a little late. Before I'd even consider color, temperament and nerve would be my main priority in that environment. Mental stimulation is key! Also searching the city for quiet spots to be able to work your dog alone and away from the chaos. Living in an apartment, keep in mind, puppies make noise. Especially during crate training and things like that. I have a 7 month old doberman here now because the owner was about to be evicted due to the puppy making noise. So just other things to keep in mind.


Thanks for your help here!

I tried calling and emailing to speak to someone there to chat about this exactly! I currently live in Nob Hill and am convinced that raising a puppy would be exponentially more difficult here. Planning on moving to Mission Bay or Hayes Valley before the pup arrives (moving by end of July 2020). More dog friendly, quieter, open space, grassy areas, etc. Few questions:

1. What do you think of Mission Bay/Hayes? Either preferred? (when raising a puppy, I realize i'll sacrifice neighborhood character/local bars/restaurants, etc. which I'm fine with..)
2. Any advice on evaluating temperament/nerve? General consensus from my research and breeder discussion seems to be fully communicate what I'm looking for/the environment I plan on raising a dog in to the breeder and let them find one that's suitable for me. Anything outside of this that'll help me vet temperament? I really wish I had more to go off of here..
3. I plan on introducing myself to my new neighbors and preparing a goodie-bag, letting them know my plans to raise the puppy. I'll be open about communicating and working with it and realize that the first month or two will be rough and there will be noise but I'll do the best I can to manage it. Advice here also appreciated


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

From a dog savvy friend, sf native...

_“Mission Bay is near the ball park and Children’s hospital. It’s walkable, near the water front and has some small, dog friendly green space. Hayes Valley has nice parts near dog friendly parks, and Golden Gate Park. Some parts have a larger unhoused population with lots of opportunity to get into trash and poop. Personally I would pick Hayes (but I’m partial cause that’s where I live). I feel like there are probably more dogs in Hayes then Mission Bay, the person will likely need to be strategic in their outings.”_


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

You can get a working line GSD they are mostly sable colored and very healthy compared to the show line. The only thing is you need to tire them out as their energy level is endless from pup till 5-7 years. After that they are a lot calmer. I know a few who have a sable working line at home and they are lovely,fiercely loyal and protective.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> From a dog savvy friend, sf native...
> 
> _“Mission Bay is near the ball park and Children’s hospital. It’s walkable, near the water front and has some small, dog friendly green space. Hayes Valley has nice parts near dog friendly parks, and Golden Gate Park. Some parts have a larger unhoused population with lots of opportunity to get into trash and poop. Personally I would pick Hayes (but I’m partial cause that’s where I live). I feel like there are probably more dogs in Hayes then Mission Bay, the person will likely need to be strategic in their outings.”_


I'll check out Hayes this weekend. I was in Mission Bay this weekend scoping out the neighborhood.. very calm, ton of dogs and dog parks, open spaces, etc. Seems very suburban and lacked the real city character. Didn't notice the poop on the ground but I'll head back next weekend to double check lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hirakawa199006 said:


> You can get a working line GSD they are mostly sable colored an*d very healthy compared to the show line.* The only thing is you need to tire them out as their energy level is endless from pup till 5-7 years. After that they are a lot calmer. I know a few who have a sable working line at home and they are lovely,fiercely loyal and protective.


Working lines are no less, and no more, healthy than show lines. That is just simply not factual. This is the same breed with the same health issues plaguing both lines. A good breeder is doing the same testing regardless of lines and following the same breeding ethics.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Does anyone have experience with Kreative Kennels?

Had a very in-depth conversation with the owner today, she seems well versed and intelligent, very up to date. They do breed a high volume of litters though, 12 annually. Is that a concern?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> Does anyone have experience with Kreative Kennels?
> 
> Had a very in-depth conversation with the owner today, she seems well versed and intelligent, very up to date. They do breed a high volume of litters though, 12 annually. Is that a concern?


No experience but they are a pricey, commercial breeding operation. You can get as good or better a pup from a breeder who actually knows their dogs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BKGSD said:


> I'll check out Hayes this weekend. I was in Mission Bay this weekend scoping out the neighborhood.. very calm, ton of dogs and dog parks, open spaces, etc. Seems very suburban and lacked the real city character. Didn't notice the poop on the ground but I'll head back next weekend to double check lol


I’m pretty sure she was referring to human feces, in some areas of hayes valley. eek!


BKGSD said:


> Does anyone have experience with Kreative Kennels?
> 
> Had a very in-depth conversation with the owner today, she seems well versed and intelligent, very up to date. They do breed a high volume of litters though, 12 annually. Is that a concern?


A concern? In what way?
Personally, too high volume for me. I prefer a breeder that knows their individual dogs pretty intimately - what they’re like not only to work, but live with. I’m also relying on them to know the litter well enough to match me with the appropriate pup. Lastly... I like when breeders stay in contact with their puppy buyers... tracking their accomplishments as well as any health issues, strengths/weaknesses in the lines or between a particular breeding pair.

Kreative may very well have a system in place to track all this info... i don’t know, but those are the things that would be on my mind.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I agree very much with using a breeder that has less volume and that lives with their dogs and knows them well. I have benefited from a lower volume breeder. I would add that there is also a benefit to using a breeder that has multiple generations of their line rather than importing regularly. My GSD was picked for me within those parameters and he’s absolutely awesome for our life. 
It’s the breeder knowing the breeding stock and the progeny just as @Fodder said. But in my case it’s also the support. Guidance and genetic knowledge from a breeder that knows their own lines are extremely helpful.
Unfortunately, less volume also means that you might have to wait longer for a breeding that can produce the right puppy for you.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> I’m pretty sure she was referring to human feces, in some areas of hayes valley. eek!
> 
> A concern? In what way?
> Personally, too high volume for me. I prefer a breeder that knows their individual dogs pretty intimately - what they’re like not only to work, but live with. I’m also relying on them to know the litter well enough to match me with the appropriate pup. Lastly... I like when breeders stay in contact with their puppy buyers... tracking their accomplishments as well as any health issues, strengths/weaknesses in the lines or between a particular breeding pair.
> ...



Unfortunately, human feces is all over the ground in ALL parts of San Francisco. The income disparity within a short-half mile, between the financial district and the tenderloin is ridiculous, SF leadership should really be ashamed at how the city has changed.. but thats a different topic I'd rather not divert our productive conversation from.

I agree with the high-volume piece, it's a bit concerning.. how can they provide genuine love and care if they have so many dogs all over the facilities? When I called her, she did know the dog names, pedigree, and traits/coloring + birth schedules immediately though. She seems to know whats going on, but I do question whether or not each puppy gets the TLC it needs?


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Another huge question I have is:

I've scoured online forums, have had multiple discussions with breeders at length via phone, chatted with owners of sable/working line GSDs and the general consensus is that they won't be ideal for my situation as they're much higher energy, don't always have off-switches, and can be loud/vocal. After hearing that I live in an apartment and am looking for a dog with an off-switch that's not too vocal, everyone seems to try and persuade me to look into West German Showlines/and NOT sables.

Is this the case? Should I not consider Sables as they'll have an intensity/high-drive that won't allow for calmer, suitable companionship in the city?

To be clear, I believe training is a lifelong endeavor and will stimulate mentally and physically for multiple hours a day. Can afford to take him out and play twice a day on weekdays and for hours at a time on weekends when things free up. I didn't have a problem with my last GSD and was able to train him vocally, however it seems like some sables are loud and it can't be avoided due to underlying personality?

Would love everyones thoughts here!


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> I agree very much with using a breeder that has less volume and that lives with their dogs and knows them well. I have benefited from a lower volume breeder. I would add that there is also a benefit to using a breeder that has multiple generations of their line rather than importing regularly. My GSD was picked for me within those parameters and he’s absolutely awesome for our life.
> It’s the breeder knowing the breeding stock and the progeny just as @Fodder said. But in my case it’s also the support. Guidance and genetic knowledge from a breeder that knows their own lines are extremely helpful.
> Unfortunately, less volume also means that you might have to wait longer for a breeding that can produce the right puppy for you.



This is great stuff, I appreciate it.

I've narrowed my search down to a handful of breeders, 3/4 are smaller and 1/4 is a larger volume breeder. Of course, I'd love a lower volume breeder that can give me a hand picked dog.. but due to timelines some I've contacted have 15+ on the waitlist and expect newer applicants to get puppies mid-2021.

Definitely incorporating timeline into the factor here as well!


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Yup, a little under 700. It’s perfectly fine with one dog. He usually hangout on my balcony at home and his kennel is out of the way. Fitting kennels in took a little rearranging, but it’s fine. The space is only an issue when I have more than 3 or 4 people over, but that’s nothing to do with the dogs.



Any tips or tricks for training them out of barking/whining as puppies to ensure I don't get evicted due to noise complaints?! lol


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Indoor space has never been a huge issue for me... I got my first GSD while living in a 350sq ft efficiency apt. My current house is 700sq ft and until recently I had 2 GSD here. It’s a nice size for us.



Any advice on training puppies out of whining/barking/crying to ensure there aren't endless noise complaints? Also, do your dogs bark when people pass in the apartment hallways when you aren't home? Suggestions on avoiding?

Was thinking of a camera system and training it by recreating the situation and slowly working it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> Any advice on training puppies out of whining/barking/crying to ensure there aren't endless noise complaints? Also, do your dogs bark when people pass in the apartment hallways when you aren't home? Suggestions on avoiding?
> 
> Was thinking of a camera system and training it by recreating the situation and slowly working it.


I simply warned neighbors when I had them that a new pup was arriving and it would be a couple of probably noisy nights. Offered to buy then a pizza and some beer to make up for it and asked what nights were better for their schedules. Kind of planned it so pups first nights crated were their days off. 
IF you do it right puppies settle in easy and seldom create much disturbance. It's that so few people set themselves up for success. 
I either put the crate right next to my bed or had the pups right in bed with me. I very rarely had much disturbance. We started the daytime routine in short sessions when neighbors were at work, so not there to hear any ruckus. 

People walking by: if you ignore it the dog probably will as well. If not just discourage and distract right from the start.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BKGSD said:


> I agree with the high-volume piece, it's a bit concerning.. how can they provide genuine love and care if they have so many dogs all over the facilities? When I called her, she did know the dog names, pedigree, and traits/coloring + birth schedules immediately though. She seems to know whats going on, but I do question whether or not each puppy gets the TLC it needs?


I believe they have a staff. And i believe the daughter (who is most likely who you talked to) rears the litters in the house and manages sales. All hear say.


BKGSD said:


> Any advice on training puppies out of whining/barking/crying to ensure there aren't endless noise complaints? Also, do your dogs bark when people pass in the apartment hallways when you aren't home? Suggestions on avoiding?


I don’t. My apt raised GSD was 10 months old when i got her and not vocal at all. Those who came after followed her lead.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Color has nothing to do with temperament. And all lines of GSDs are vocal. You need to find a breeder that is knowledgeable enough to pair you with the right dog.


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

BKGSD said:


> Any tips or tricks for training them out of barking/whining as puppies to ensure I don't get evicted due to noise complaints?! lol





BKGSD said:


> Any advice on training puppies out of whining/barking/crying to ensure there aren't endless noise complaints? Also, do your dogs bark when people pass in the apartment hallways when you aren't home? Suggestions on avoiding?
> 
> Was thinking of a camera system and training it by recreating the situation and slowly working it.


You need to train from Puppyhood a command to turn the barking off and on. Whining shouldnt be a problem. Train to ignore other people during a walk on and off leash.

The working lines are a bit too hard to handle. Which gender are you getting? Female should be less vocal then males in most cases. Also a working line need a job to do e.g. maybe go for a tracking scent training so keep him/her busy.

A few blocks around here is a sable female gsd working line in my neighbourhood and she rarely barks. The owner only told me to give plenty of mental stimulation.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Kodie - 12mo male
Get him!!!
He’s young, fun, adorable, light sable, good house manners and can climb a fence which could make him an ideal candidate for apartment living (from the rescues pov)...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Fodder want to send him to me? He sounds like a great start.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> @Fodder want to send him to me? He sounds like a great start.


right!? sounds very similar to my first girl!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

If a person is diligent about checking sometimes the perfect dog falls into your lap. 
The guy that adopted Brigit from me had looked at several of the litters I fostered. He wanted a puppy. Brig was about 4 and came with a broken leg. He visited her 5 times and actually wanted Morri but fell in love with Brig and has never looked back. She is nearly 12 now and he emailed me pictures of her and his 6 year old daughter splashing in the kiddie pool.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Fodder said:


> Kodie - 12mo male
> Get him!!!
> He’s young, fun, adorable, light sable, good house manners and can climb a fence which could make him an ideal candidate for apartment living (from the rescues pov)...
> View attachment 560577


adopted!! sweet boy went quick! @Sabis mom


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Good for him! Hope he has a bright future ahead.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

My older dog wasn’t very vocal, so it wasn’t a big issue. The one I have now isn’t too bad either. As long as you keep the dog mentally stimulated and you aren’t encouraging them to make a lot of noise, it doesn’t come up. As for crate training, I start by working with the door open and then transition to door closed. I’ll guarantee you get some crying in the crate. I take time off in the beginning to help them adjust and work on crate training when everyone is awake/working. Don’t take them out or give treats while their making noise. I will open the door when the whine, but I don’t actually let them out. That has worked for me.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Does anyone have experience working with - Hirten Bray Hugel, FB: Log In or Sign Up to View

Website: Kennel | Hirten Bray Hugel German Shepherd Dogs | United States


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Hi All,

Wanted to open this discussion up to importing dogs internationally, ie: czech/germ. Does anyone have experience importing? Prices, pre/post-COVID factors, questions to ask, differences compared to picking one up domestically, etc?

Anything other than the typical below, please let me know if I am missing anything here?

Both parents OFA certified hips/elbows?
Both parents 18+ months old before breeding? 24+ months?
Both parents have Elbow Dysplasia certificates? OFC issued?
DM testing for parents? No recessive/positive genes?
How often is the Dam bred? Once per year to allow for recovery?
Breeder willing to provide phone #s of those who have purchased puppies from them so I can reach out? Same bloodline?
Spay/Neuter contract?
On what basis was the sire/dam pairing chosen?
Will the breeder take back the dog at any time, for any reason, if I can’t keep it?
Written guarantee against congenital health or temperament problems?
CH, CD, CDX, UD, TDX, V, VA, BSC1, BSC2 before or after names of first two generations? Champion/titled pedigree? BH, Schutzhund, 1,2,3, IPO 1,2,3?
Both parents have Endurance/AD title?
Puppies raised at home or in backyard, kennels?
What does socialization/exposure look like until I receive it?
How many dogs does the breeder own/manage? More than 1-2 litters at a time doesn’t enable sufficient attention for each litter


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

imo, you’re over complicating things. with so many breeders, rescues and clubs within a couple hours of you, especially since it seems you’re no longer set on a light sable.... at some point you’ve really gotta get off the computer and go hang out with some dogs.

eta:
breeders—
tyson
cooperhaus
kreative
sentinalhart
truehaus
t17
aus dem tal....

rescues—
_(if you just want to go familiarize yourself with a bunch of “types”, get your hands on some dogs and see what’s important to you)_
bay area shepherd rescue
northern california gsd rescue
second chance
golden state

clubs—


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> imo, you’re over complicating things. with so many breeders, rescues and clubs within a couple hours of you, especially since it seems you’re no longer set on a light sable.... at some point you’ve really gotta get off the computer and go hang out with some dogs.



I've narrowed it down to a few breeders, all are domestic - but one has connects to import. It would be unwise of me to take any option off the table without researching
A light-sable GSD is still 100% my only choice
Have met with a few breeders/dogs in the past two week
Don't know where you're inferring the above from?


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> imo, you’re over complicating things. with so many breeders, rescues and clubs within a couple hours of you, especially since it seems you’re no longer set on a light sable.... at some point you’ve really gotta get off the computer and go hang out with some dogs.
> 
> eta:
> breeders:
> ...



Thanks for editing your post. If it helps,

Witmer Tyson - I have a deposit down and am on the waitlist though it's lengthy
SentinelHarts - sables are taken, nothing until October, though I've been in close contact with them and will continue to check in

Kreative Kennels - seems a bit commercialized? they have a lot of dogs on the property

Cooperhaus, t17, aus dem tal, - not sure about these, but if you're suggesting them, I'll check it out.
Truehaus - Their waitlist is lengthy, not likely I'll get a pupp anytime soon


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BKGSD said:


> I've narrowed it down to a few breeders, all are domestic - but one has connects to import. It would be unwise of me to take any option off the table without researching
> A light-sable GSD is still 100% my only choice
> Have met with a few breeders/dogs in the past two week
> Don't know where you're inferring the above from?


i suppose “light” is subjective... i’m basing it on some of the breeders you’ve asked about and the original photos you posted.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> i suppose “light” is subjective... i’m basing it on some of the breeders you’ve asked about and the original photos you posted.



Definitely, if it helps - light-sabling where the grey/tan is the predominant color versus black. If at first glance you'd call it a black-sable, definitely too dark. I'm on the t17 fb page, beautiful dogs - mostly black-sables but I see a few lighter ones.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

well hopefully you find exactly it is what you’re looking for and can handle all the sable puppy color changes with minimal anxiety, lol. i would call jeremys dogs (t17) sable..... i’d call the majority of randy’s dogs (tyson) sable.

i can almost guarantee however that if a breeder breeds a (light, med, dark or black) sable to a (light, med, dark or black) sable, they’re bound to produce a range of shades whose final color will be determined at maturity.. if you’re on the list for a “sable”....they (the breeder) isnt going to be taking take shade into account.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

also...
same dog different season. buckle up.








(photo from IG)


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> also...
> same dog different season. buckle up.
> View attachment 560860
> 
> (photo from IG)




yep, totally aware that the coat changes by season and throughout it's life. FWIW - i'm sure we'd both consider these black/darker sables.

still doing everything I can to maximize my chances at a lighter one. thanks for the input.

do you have experience importing?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> Definitely, if it helps - light-sabling where the grey/tan is the predominant color versus black. If at first glance you'd call it a black-sable, definitely too dark. I'm on the t17 fb page, beautiful dogs - mostly black-sables but I see a few lighter ones.


Get away from T17! That's my puppy! 
Kidding. Seriously, fabulous breeders, incredible dogs so far. I have been stalking from the beginning and I love everything they are doing. They are near you I believe and may have an idea about who is doing what near you.


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## BKGSD (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Get away from T17! That's my puppy!
> Kidding. Seriously, fabulous breeders, incredible dogs so far. I have been stalking from the beginning and I love everything they are doing. They are near you I believe and may have an idea about who is doing what near you.


LOL!

Their website is down, I've sent a Facebook message as thats the only method of contact I can find... but haven't heard from them. Do you have their contact info?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BKGSD said:


> LOL!
> 
> Their website is down, I've sent a Facebook message as thats the only method of contact I can find... but haven't heard from them. Do you have their contact info?


you can message @mycobraracr on this forum or message through FB. I had contact info at one point but they are super responsive to messaging on FB.
There were several breeders who lost websites last year for some reason. I remember discussion on Wolfstraum's FB page about it. Someone was actively poaching websites it seemed.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

For some reason our website went down last year. I still get charged for the domain name, but the website was gone. So Kiersten started to re-design one, and just hasn't gotten it finished yet. Most people seem to contact us through FB, so we weren't in a huge rush. Our email is listed on the FB as well. Sorry for any inconvenience.


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## SentinelHarts (May 7, 2011)

BKGSD said:


> Thanks for editing your post. If it helps,
> 
> Witmer Tyson - I have a deposit down and am on the waitlist though it's lengthy
> SentinelHarts - sables are taken, nothing until October, though I've been in close contact with them and will continue to check in
> ...


BKGSD- Call me- Camilla


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